# Jim from Austin :: Frogs and Vivs



## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

I've lurked for a while and posted here and there. Figured I'd start a thread on my favorite viv photos. First up are my original two vivs - azureus pair on the right, original group of red galacts on the left:







I built a custom stand for these two vivs last fall. They sit side by side but offset vertically by 6 inches. Here's a wider shot of the stand:







The misting system, fan power supplies and lighting timers are housed in the cabinet. The galact build was fun, but over built  There are lots of shadows and caves, so the galacts are not out very often. The azureus on the other hand are always out:







I'll post more historical pics and a few of a new build I am working on. Thanks for looking!


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

A few more of my favorite azureus photos:


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

And a few shots from my current build. This one is for my son who will be keeping bakhuis. Turns out he prefers frogs over fish, and he's a spiderman fan 
































This was a custom stand and hood. I wanted to keep the lines clean and hide all the equipment. The hood rests on the upper frame of the zoomed 18" cube, and it is resting on weather striping. There is a 1" vent along the front, and a pane of glass covers the balance of the top (zoomed frame and screen removed). The blow hole vents the heat from the fixtures and draws air through the viv, keeping the front glass clear. 

Still working on the planting, but here's an early shot with temporary lighting (JD's on order from Todd!):


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## KDuraiswamy (Dec 2, 2012)

Wow! Those are really nice vivs without even considering the fact that those are your first ones! And the stand also looks great. I look forward to seeing the bakhuis viv finished.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

I really like them Jim! I like the unique stand and especially your son's viv with the special touch! Pretty cool to make it something no one else has.

Great job and thanks for sharing!

-Chris


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

These vivs are epic!! I especially love the setup for the Azureus.. Any chance you took construction pics and can go into more detail about them?


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the nice comments!



Nismo95 said:


> These vivs are epic!! I especially love the setup for the Azureus.. Any chance you took construction pics and can go into more detail about them?


The azureus (on the right of the dual viv setup) are in an 18"x18"x24" Zoomed. This is version 2 of their viv after an epic *fail* on my first attempt at a viv (40B vert that leaked). I learned a lot with the first one (and by reading the forums  )

The most unique thing about the azureus viv is I used magnetic foam shelves from a commercial vendor to create the ledges. I've made my own ledge builds since (one with foam board, one using cork bark). The azureus use all levels of the viv by climbing from shelf to shelf. Initially the viv started brom heavy, but over time I've switched to selaginella, pilea and peperomia as the primary plants. Selaginella plana happened to be a great addition - it's got strong vertical stems that form interweaving sturdy branches across the back half of the viv. The azureus have been using that as a ladder to scale from ledge to ledge. The time lapse sequence on plana growth was impressive:








I've managed to harvest cuttings from the azureus viv and populate two other vivs. Here's a galact viv that is about 6 months old with a hearty canopy of plana:








That's partly been my issue with the galact viv. Combined with an extensive custom foam ledge and cave network behind the plant growth, the plana canopy throws lots of shadows, so the galacts have lots of hides. They are rarely more than a short hop from a hiding spot, so they are rarely seen. I'm mulling another grander galact project that will "go big" and have less depth. Hopefully that will provide more open areas for viewing while still making them comfortable.

I really like the look of low growing peperomia trinervula. I can't get enough of the stuff! I posted some pics to a peperomia thread, but here they are in case you missed them:















Left alone, trinervula will spread with long runners and look "viny". I routinely snip 3/4" new growth and plant the cuttings horizontally to create a carpet of low lying tinervula. This is what the female azureus was hiding under in a previous post. She actually uses the trinervula as cover when she is hunting hydei - she creeps under the leaves and pops out to pick off a basking fly. It's fun to watch. There's also a previous post of the pair basking on top of the trinervula. It's a great sturdy plant they have not been able to destroy, unlike my begonia 

In terms of stands, that's something I enjoy working on. Most of the techniques are scaled down from aquarium stand construction. Generally all my stands use a 1"x2" frame sheathed with 1/4" or 1/2" birch plywood. Horizontal decks are 3/4" plywood. Framing is assembled with 1.5" countersunk wood screws, and ply is attached to the frame with wood glue and 1" finish nails, and a little wood filler to cover up any mistakes  It's not cheap, but it yields a furniture grade stand. I don't have a frog room, so my viv's are scattered around and I want them to look like show pieces. Here are a few construction pics of the side by side viv:




















The dual 18"x18"x24" stand used 1/4" ply. I switched to 1/2" ply for the bakhuis viv and liked that better. The 1/4" was cheaper, but it is not as true when selecting boards. I did have to increase my trim size to accommodate the larger plywood, but it did not alter the visual appeal of the stand that much IMHO . My stands are short so my kids can enjoy the frogs - I want them at their level.

I'm thinking of ditching my exoterra hoods on the dual viv stand and moving to a custom set of hoods like the bakhuis hoods - much cleaner. I also am more pleased with the bakhuis top - I ditched the factory frame and dropped the glass right in the opening on this build and I think that turned out better than trying to silicone cut class into the removable factory frame. Add all this up and I think I will be revisiting the dual viv setup for some improvements!


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## BALDITO (Sep 17, 2012)

What are these magnetic foam shelves you speak of?


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

MagNatural ledges and planter shelves. 
http://www.pet-tech.com/magnaturals.html









They are expensive but they were handy for my first viv. I ended up using them in version 1.0 of my azureus viv, and when it sprung a leak (40B vert) I setup the 18"x18"x24" version 2.0 with a false bottom and substrate then just moved the ledges and planters from the old viv to the new one. Instant background! It kept some of the hides the frogs were used to intact and made the change smooth. I did buy the extra strength magnets for a few of the ledges that did not hold well with the standard magnets.


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## lhoy (Mar 10, 2013)

Hey Jim,

Awesome work!! I live in Georgetown. Wondering if you might help me build a unique stand and tops to hold some tanks?

Phenomenal work!

Lee


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

lhoy said:


> Hey Jim,
> 
> Awesome work!! I live in Georgetown. Wondering if you might help me build a unique stand and tops to hold some tanks?
> 
> ...


Hi Lee! Good to meet a fellow central Texas frogger! Thanks for the kind words. PM me about your stand ideas.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Hey Jim and Lee, I miss Austin!! Hook 'em Horns!!


Sent from my iPhone via Tapatalk


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

im not too far from austin. i live in san antonio


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

Everything looks amazing!. Nice photo work too. Very crisp Especially of the frogs. Thanks for sharing.


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Hey Jim and Lee, I miss Austin!! Hook 'em Horns!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone via Tapatalk


You need to swing through Austin so I can buy you a beer and pick your "frog" brain!


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

Sounds like we will need to organize a central Texas frog meetup!


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## lhoy (Mar 10, 2013)

I am game!!!


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

All these people from Austin... this thread is getting weird.

Awesome setups Jim!


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

SDRiding said:


> All these people from Austin... this thread is getting weird.
> 
> Awesome setups Jim!


Thanks Mike! 

Ha ha "weird" - too funny. My favorite was Gov. Perry's characterization of Austin as "the blueberry in the tomato soup" ...


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

Figured we should get back to frogs and vivs, so here are a few pics of recent acquisitions:


























And a few juvenile pics from the froglet grow out vivs from my azuerus pair:


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

Such good looking frogs. My 4 year old said "i like the blue ones there beautiful"


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

frogwatcher said:


> Such good looking frogs. My 4 year old said "i like the blue ones there beautiful"


Thanks! That's precisely how I got into the hobby! My daughter wanted a "blue frog" and the researching started!

My kids really enjoy watching the frogs and the entire tad and froglet rearing process. My daughter brought a tadpole to preschool and her class spent 3 months morphing it out. The bakhuis are for my three year old's spider man viv I posted earlier. I think frogs are a wonderful educational pet for kids (assuming an adult is involved to ensure proper husbandry). My kids have learned so much about life cycles and how to create a special environment for an animal with different needs. They love seeing it "rain inside"!

I'm so glad my kids got me into the hobby!


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

It all started for me when I was younger. I had a book i don't even remember when or were I got from. It had a few picturs of darts on the front it was very colorful. And it was just titled "poison dart frogs". And my favorite out of the whole book was the "blue one". At the time it said they were "rare" in the hobby. And for the past 15-18 years I have been off and on doing research. Now I can't wait to get some "blue frogs" of my own.


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

so rare anymore lol.


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

Well IMHO azureus are a perfect first dart frog. Big. Bold. Blue! Unique black patterns. Hearty. Even though our collection has expanded they remain the family favorite. They have such personality. They are a great first choice! Good luck with your research and imminent acquisition


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

Thanks  I am so ready.


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## diggenem (Sep 2, 2011)

Nice vivs! Excellent job with planting!!


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

It's been a while since I posted some photos. Just finished up adding some small bookshelf rotational vivs. I redid my layout a while back and moved to a single wall with 6 display vivs and 6 smaller grow outs. I added the bookshelf vivs for rotating out males and growing out additional holdbacks / pairs of smaller animals. 








Here are my new custom vivs I cut from some Petco $1 per gallon tanks:


























I'm experimenting with a forced air venting system - these microvivs have equally small vents, and I don't get the amount of airflow I like. You can see the blow holes on my display vivs that pull air out of the lamp housings, but double as a way to pull air through the viv as well. I can control the amount of air moving through the vivs by controlling the top vent size. I didn't have as much room to work through on the shelf vivs, so I am trying an air pump tied to a cycle timer that I am tuning to control the air flow. Anyhow that piece is an ongoing project. 


The side portion of my wall is dedicated to my Lorenzo project. Currently I have three groups, and am setting up for a fourth.








Some of the current animals:





















The rest of the wall is 2x D. tinctorius NAIB True Sipaliwini, A. galactanotus Red, R. sirensis "highland", and R. fantastica "nominant". I'm setup now for multiple groups of each. I've been focused on NAIB True Sips recently as the "old line" NAIB animals seem to be really hard to come by these days. I hope they don't disappear from the hobby. I have an F1 pair from Sean Stewart, and another F1 female I will likely pair up with F2 animals I have produced. Here's one of the F1's:








And one of the F2's in grow out:








And with that, I've hit my attachment photo limit


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Jim do you know how much genetic variability you have in your Lorenzo's? I have only known of European imports, any other info on that?


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

markpulawski said:


> Jim do you know how much genetic variability you have in your Lorenzo's? I have only known of European imports, any other info on that?


Hi Mark. Not much unfortunately, but I've attempted to do the best I can with what we have available in the US. I have animals from Sean that are a cross between the UE (Understory) import from the EU (Europe) in 2007 and Bill Schwinn's animals from the 90's, and animals from Understory. I think most of the "old line" animals are lost, so we only have a few animals still representing them - literally TWO that I know of. My understanding is that line may have dwindled to a single pair in Bill's care. I also don't know if the European stock and 90's US import were from the same export.

Two of my three groups have males from UE and females from Sean's animals. I'm always looking for trades with folks that have "old line" animals, as the UE line is pretty much all that is available these days, but so far I am only aware of Sean and one other keeper with animals from Schwinn's stock. I did find some old adverts from the 90's in Chuck's ADG newsletter, so I'm holding out hope there are still more hanging around. 

Lorenzo actually drove the design of my frog wall. The six small grow out vivs on the left are there so I can sort Lorenzo offspring. I track the different groupings I have and assign lineage codes to them so I can send people animals from different parental groups. Currently I have three different sets of animals in grow out from different parental groupings. I'm also considering annual male rotations, with the hope this strategy can strengthen the line a bit. So right now I have 8 of the 18 vivs on the wall allocated for Lorenzo (parents and offspring).

An interesting note - there is anecdotal evidence about losing female Lorenzo's to bacterial infections during breeding season. Males seem to be unaffected. I lost two females last year from two different tanks, and Kris lost one a while back - three animals with similar diagnoses via necropsy. There is at least one other case I heard of, but a necropsy was not performed. My pathologist thought my two cases were odd, and asked "is the founders stock limited with these animals?" He suggested it may be that the females may be predisposed to suppressed immune systems leading to the difficulties we see with losses during breeding (much more so than other tincs).

The other interesting characteristic of Lorenzo that may lend credence to this thought process is their distinct color differentiation between males and females. So far males consistently have much more yellow and blue than females, some of which can be nearly black. I know black ghosts are much more prevalent in EU animals, where Lorenzo are more readily available. Is this another characteristic of limited founders stock? 

I'm not a biologist, so I could have all this wrong  Just putting my observations and discussions out there, so you biology types take it easy on me. But seriously, opinions from experts on this and Lorenzo locale management are greatly appreciated.

I have been slowing things down since the loss. I dried them out a good bit which stopped breeding (hence my addiction to tuning air flow lol). I am trying to only encourage breeding once a year for about a month. I'm also experimenting with 1.2's in the larger vivs. I have had good results with groups (UE male, 2 Stewart sibling females) and I'd like to think I've managed other small groups of tincs pretty well (my 2.2 Bakhuis come to mind) without losses due to stress or aggression. 

I've also found Lorenzo seem to respond better with additional vit A supplementation leading up to breeding (a great suggestion from Zach / Spaff  ) which has improved clutch viability for me. Clutches are small (4 to 6 eggs) and given the restrictions I'm attempting to impose, supplementation on a different rotation than the rest of my collection is critical.

It's kind of sad that such a cool animal has become so difficult to maintain. The pathologist noted that I could alter the AB's I was using for treatment at the time (Baytril was ineffective against the mycobacterium spp. that hit them, but unfortunately we were not able to culture the bacteria for better identification) and prophylactically treat my females during breeding season, but I think I'd rather just try to avoid AB's like that and see if they can make it. I've been less aggressive in pulling clutches now - I only pull tads that have been transported. My thinking is if an egg can make it to a transported tad, maybe we have a better shot at stronger offspring. That tends to slow things down too 

If there is a locale that is a good candidate for a registry / breeding program, this is it.

I just realized I probably went on a boring long winded response lol. I just get going on Lorenzo and can't stop typing lol.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

looks awesome and even better in person


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Great explanation, these guys were the same as Summersi until UE provided new blood to the hobby. I agree, carefully managing this population here is pretty critical, good luck hope new genetics are available soon.


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

Finally worked out my Lorenzo groupings. I now have four groups; a 1.1 proven Stewart line (JO-LRZ-2015C), a 1.1 UE & 2014A (JO-LRZ-2016G), a 1.2 UE & 2015E (JO-LRZ-2016F), and a 1.2 2014A & 2015E (JO-LRZ-2016H). The last three are non sibling groupings using my pair codes from prior years that produced those offspring. Here is my final grouping....JO-LRZ-2016H:








This gets me partially to my goal of four non sibling pair. I will eventually separate the 2015C pairing but they are my only proven group at this point. I will leave them as is until I start seeing production from my 2016 groups. In the meantime, 2015C has yielded their first clutch after cycling them back up for the first time since September:








That is a fairly typical clutch for Lorenzo - usually 3 to 4 eggs.


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## jglow84 (Apr 5, 2013)

Super cool to see a successful frogger here in town! Dig the tanks. 
I'd like to see how you do your air system. I've been working on one for my exo Terra and am trying to get it perfected.


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks! There are a few of us here in Austin - not too many. I have a webpage detailing the vent designs for my Exos / zoomeds here:
Vivarium ventilation and air circulation – oneillscrossing.com

I've used this approach on my eight 18x18x24's, six 12x12x18's and my custom 120. I remove the stock screen top / frame and throw it out. I get cheap Home Depot 3/32 glass that I cut for a top cover and silicone in place. I also use a frosted appliqué to make the top opaque so you cannot see fixtures. I use a 1 inch vent running along the top front glass made of solar screen siliconed in place. This top vent combined with the vent below the door allows for air flow - nothing really new there. 

I then built low profile wooden boxes to house my LED lamps. The box floats on a weather stripping gasket that forms a seal except for an access port in the back for cables. I cut a blow hole in the top of the hood above the front vent. The exhaust cools the LED lamps, but also allows me to draw air at a controlled rate through the viv. I use 80mm fans with built in speed controllers, and a piece of scrap glass that I can use to adjust the size of the top vent.

The link above has a bunch of plots from data I collected while prototyping the hoods. I ran a series of fan speed tests and logged humidity values for 24 hour test cycles. Over time I have gotten better at visually controlling the humidity taking queues from how wet my plants and substrate are. 

Anyhow I like active venting. I feel the additional airflow yields a healthier setup - not very scientific - but it does give me more precise control over temp and RH. I was able to drop the viv temps a degree or two below ambient with higher fan speed settings. This was likely due to evaporative cooling. This is useful since it can get pretty hot here in Texas 

If you go with the active airflow concept, you do have to consider the impact on your misting schedule. I mist about 4 times a day for 30 seconds. I adjust that seasonally, reducing the misting over the winter when I open up my vents which cycles everyone down. I use Lascar data loggers for prolonged monitoring - they are about $80 and you can drop them in the viv and leave them collecting for two weeks to see how the viv conditions vary over time.

I've also been experimenting with forced air injection in my bookshelf vivs. These smaller rotational and hold back vivs are too small for full vented hoods, so I used two 15 Lpm variable rate pumps plumbed into the 6 bookshelf vivs. I have a series of control valves that I can use to control the air rates I inject into the lower door vents. So far the animals seem to like it - they tend to sit in front of the lower vents by the nozzles when the pumps are on.

We'll have to get an Austin meet up going. I know of about 5 or 6 of us now.


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## jglow84 (Apr 5, 2013)

Thanks for the info. The data on your Web page is awesome. You've really done your homework! 
I am working on an exo hood and am trying to decide between two fans actively pushing air into the tank or one active and one passive. I grow a lot of orchids and what I haven't decided is how beneficial the movement created by the fans 'wind' is for the plants vs just fresh air circulating via passive fans sucking air out.

A local meetup would be great! I'm in North austin near Zookeeper.


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

I think two fans blowing could be too much volume depending on the size of the viv. I don't know the exact airflow through my vivs using the fans, but it's not a lot. My 80 mm moves a max of 24 CFM, and I usually run them at half power. I don't know how much is really pulled through the viv itself rather than the opening at the back, but I imagine it's relatively low. I have a better idea of airflow through my smaller vivs where I'm pumping air in. In that case I'm moving about 5x the viv volume through the tank per hour. That seems to be about right, though it might require more tuning seasonally as it's pretty humid right now with all the weather blowing through.

I'm out by the lake. We could post to the Texas group and try for a meet up at the bar down the strip from ZK, or something out by the lake - whenever it stops raining...


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## jglow84 (Apr 5, 2013)

Your airflow amount is way less than mine, but you are definitely achieving a good temp/humidity balance. I have much bigger fans both on my new exo and my existing azureus tank. My reasoning is that The room the tanks are in can easily get up to the mid 80s in the summer so I rely heavily on evaporative cooling. But i guess it's a little overkill.
After looking at your data and setup I flipped my fan (I only have one fan installed at the moment) so it is sucking air through the exo and it seems to have a much greater drying effect but doesn't have the positive 'wind' effects. I think my answer will be two fans, one running in the 20 cfm range sucking air out to increase evaporation and the other fan pushing air in at a higher cfm to maintain the benefits of 'wind'. 
On another note I dig the opaque glass covering your hood. I like how it hides everything but provides a nice ambient glow. 
If you are interested, the heart o texas orchid show and sale is this weekend at zilker and I will be going to check it out. It might be a good spot to have a meetup if anyone else is available.


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

I can't make this weekend - good thing, I'd probably waste money on plants I would melt  You might try an exhaust fan for ventilation and an internal fan for circulation. Maybe that will help allow you to manage both independently. 

I use this window film on stock 3/32 glass if you want to retrofit your top for the same look:
Artscape 24 in. x 36 in. Etched Glass Decorative Window Film-01-0121 - The Home Depot


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