# T5, t8, t12??



## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Hello plant experts. I am looking for some advice on lighting. 

All my vivariums are lit by JD's. I have some little nursery domes and a couple sterlite bins that I grow/maintain my moss and plants. 

I have read that people use T5 bulbs for their vivariums. I don't mind the heat it puts off because they're in my garage, at least I'm pretty sure they put off more heat than the JD's?

Four foot bulb/fixtures would be ideal. I saw at Home Depot they had "aquatic plant" fluorescent bulbs. Then I saw some T8 natural daylight bulbs that have the same color temp as my JD's at 6500k. 
I didn't see any T5 there. 

Would the plants be okay and possibly show growth with T8 natural daylight or the aquatic ones? 

Any advice, information or experience would be greatly appreciated. I like to do my own research and not open a thread blind but lights/electronics are always gibberish to me. Looking through their bulbs online is making me anxious to go get some today. And I know you guys know your stuff!

Thank you


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Ok for example I'm looking right now at a pack that sounds like they would be somewhat ideal. 

GE 40 watt daylight fluorescent tube 48"
6500K
2900 lumens

2900 lumens is fair? 
Lumens are the brightness level right? How much the light penetrates depending on height?


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

For decent plant growth with any type of lighting you have to have the lights pretty close to your plants.

It's give or take in a vivarium where the lights are fixed. Horticultural lighting is adjusted for maximum benefit as the plants grow. Usually based on the tolerance of the plant to the heat output of the lamp.

Lumen is a measurement of the total output of a lamp.

In the end it's not really too important, just provide the best lighting you can but don't expect much results in this type of setting.


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## froggy_skibum (Aug 10, 2013)

home depot shoplights and those GE natural daylight tubes have been a standard for cheap lighting for a good amount of time, hard to beat the output for as cheap as they are. if you're keeping the lights no more than 24" from the plants you should be fine


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

froggy_skibum said:


> home depot shoplights and those GE natural daylight tubes have been a standard for cheap lighting for a good amount of time, hard to beat the output for as cheap as they are. if you're keeping the lights no more than 24" from the plants you should be fine



Thanks for the info about the distance. I can easily keep it a foot away. I think I'm gonna bite the bullet and try it. 


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

port_plz said:


> For decent plant growth with any type of lighting you have to have the lights pretty close to your plants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will keep them fairly close. Thanks man for the information. 


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I have grown plenty of plants with dirt cheap home depot T8 bulbs 12-18 inches away. They work fine. 6500K doesn't matter either I didn't even bother changing them every 6 months either. Another option is hydroponics or grow stores they sell lights that are more targeted to plant growth. It has been my experience that the only way to get really cheap lighting is to go with T8, the price goes up really fast with T5HO, T12s put out less light and are close in price to T8. 

That said now days it is getting to the point where it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy fluorescent fixtures unless your really want the heat because various LEDs are coming down in price to the point they are almost the same price as fluorescent fixtures and lights especially if you are looking at T5HO. If you already own a T8 shop light then by all means $6 for 2 bulbs is cheap, but if you are buying a new fixture you might just want to pick up a beamswork LED $80 for a 48 inch 5x 0.5W array. Assuming it doesn't break it will run for many years care free.

The lumens in a light is measured as the total of ALL light going in all directions when the bulb is brand new. The quality of the reflector in the case of a fluorescent tube will affect how much actually gets down to the plants and over time the light output will drop.


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Pubfiction said:


> I have grown plenty of plants with dirt cheap home depot T8 bulbs 12-18 inches away. They work fine. 6500K doesn't matter either I didn't even bother changing them every 6 months either. Another option is hydroponics or grow stores they sell lights that are more targeted to plant growth. It has been my experience that the only way to get really cheap lighting is to go with T8, the price goes up really fast with T5HO, T12s put out less light and are close in price to T8.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you think that beamswork 48" is enough to light 3 sterlite bins I have? 
The bins are 23"x16"x6". Side by side by side it would be 48" across. I know that beamswork is 48" but would that be enough to get light to the full bin. I can post a pic later of what I mean, if it's confusing. 


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I think it would be I measured the pent 0.5W lights I have around 5000 lux at 12 inches, for comparison 2 T8 bulbs that are older had 4000 lux at the same point with a cheap homedepot fixture with a white reflector. I would keep the high light plants in the middle and low light plants on the outsides.


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

It's all mosses lol. I'm leaning towards two beamswork led at 48". I mean if I bought t5ho with 4 fixtures hood, it would be around $110 I think. May as well spend the extra $30ish and get two of those. 


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Well if its moss and you are willing to get 2 there are other options. I am sure you will have enough light if you switch to 3 24 inch fixtures. And rotate them so its 1 light per bin. 

Topdogsellers will give you those shipped for $135.

I measured a couple places where moss is growing and I am getting 3000 lux.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Lux is a far less useful measure than PAR. You could have crazy high lux readings and still get extremely poor growth if your light isn't spiking in the right areas of the spectrum. Just a thought.  

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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Pubfiction said:


> Well if its moss and you are willing to get 2 there are other options. I am sure you will have enough light if you switch to 3 24 inch fixtures. And rotate them so its 1 light per bin.
> 
> Topdogsellers will give you those shipped for $135.
> 
> I measured a couple places where moss is growing and I am getting 3000 lux.


Yeah idk what lux is and idk how to measure PAR and what would be ideal. But thanks for that website. I may just order those. Seems like they would work and maybe I could use for a future vivarium when i run low on moss and don't need the light for it.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Lux is essentially a measure of brightness per area. PAR is a measure of photosynthetically active radiation. So, one just measures how bright it is, the other measures how much of that brightness your plants can actually use. You need a meter to measure either one, they're typically not cheap. 

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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Yes but I don't have a PAR meter actually besides myself I don't know that any other person in the hobby has actually attempted to use a PAR meter for frogs in recent times since LEDs became common. On top of that the only affordable PAR meter in wide use is known to also have a major hole in its measurement capabilities on the red side. So short of spending $1500 or making your own meter from scratch we are stuck with lux. And I know quite a few plant people rely on lux simply due to the easy of using their phone and not wanting to spend a lot of money on a PAR meter. 

So we work with the best data we have available, right now that's my galaxy note 4 with a lux meter application. Of course I will admit any other persons phone of a different model might read different numbers in the same light. 

Maybe I should state some assumptions. 1 most white light humans use for viewing produced by LEDs has a fairly similar spectrum, A huge spike in blue a huge hole in blue green and a hump starting in green and going to near red. Lower K lights just have that hump grow bigger compared to the blue spike. In the hobby we seem to bias toward 6500K ironically this makes most of the lights we use fairly similar in spectrum. Also because I actually have these exact pent LED lights in a shorter variety (30 inch) And I know they grow plants and provide a lot of light, and I have used some cheapo T8 bulbs I can say with confidence there is not a huge gaping problem with using lux given its the only form of quantification we have commonly available.


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Pubfiction said:


> Yes but I don't have a PAR meter actually besides myself I don't know that any other person in the hobby has actually attempted to use a PAR meter for frogs in recent times since LEDs became common. On top of that the only affordable PAR meter in wide use is known to also have a major hole in its measurement capabilities on the red side. So short of spending $1500 or making your own meter from scratch we are stuck with lux. And I know quite a few plant people rely on lux simply due to the easy of using their phone and not wanting to spend a lot of money on a PAR meter.
> 
> So we work with the best data we have available, right now that's my galaxy note 4 with a lux meter application. Of course I will admit any other persons phone of a different model might read different numbers in the same light.
> 
> Maybe I should state some assumptions. 1 most white light humans use for viewing produced by LEDs has a fairly similar spectrum, A huge spike in blue a huge hole in blue green and a hump starting in green and going to near red. Lower K lights just have that hump grow bigger compared to the blue spike. In the hobby we seem to bias toward 6500K ironically this makes most of the lights we use fairly similar in spectrum. Also because I actually have these exact pent LED lights in a shorter variety (30 inch) And I know they grow plants and provide a lot of light, and I have used some cheapo T8 bulbs I can say with confidence there is not a huge gaping problem with using lux given its the only form of quantification we have commonly available.


You mean that you have those leds that you recommended, the ones topdog has on their site? Is pretty much sold on those ones.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Yes I have 3 of these 30 inch ones. That is how I measured the lux they output.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Pubfiction said:


> Yes but I don't have a PAR meter actually besides myself I don't know that any other person in the hobby has actually attempted to use a PAR meter for frogs in recent times since LEDs became common. On top of that the only affordable PAR meter in wide use is known to also have a major hole in its measurement capabilities on the red side. So short of spending $1500 or making your own meter from scratch we are stuck with lux. And I know quite a few plant people rely on lux simply due to the easy of using their phone and not wanting to spend a lot of money on a PAR meter.
> 
> So we work with the best data we have available, right now that's my galaxy note 4 with a lux meter application. Of course I will admit any other persons phone of a different model might read different numbers in the same light.
> 
> Maybe I should state some assumptions. 1 most white light humans use for viewing produced by LEDs has a fairly similar spectrum, A huge spike in blue a huge hole in blue green and a hump starting in green and going to near red. Lower K lights just have that hump grow bigger compared to the blue spike. In the hobby we seem to bias toward 6500K ironically this makes most of the lights we use fairly similar in spectrum. Also because I actually have these exact pent LED lights in a shorter variety (30 inch) And I know they grow plants and provide a lot of light, and I have used some cheapo T8 bulbs I can say with confidence there is not a huge gaping problem with using lux given its the only form of quantification we have commonly available.



I'll have to disagree with you on a few points. But I want to be clear, I'm not trying to pick a fight! I just like a good discussion on lights  

PAR meters can run from a little over 100$ to about 400$ for a variety, I'm sure there are some over 1500$ if you're looking for higher end stuff, but no one needs that. Plenty of hobbyists have them, but apparently less so in the dart hobby. I spent several years in the planted tank hobby, and PAR meters are not uncommon there. Granted, planted tank enthusiasts dedicate fare more time and attention to lighting then dart hobbyists do, for some unknown reason. 

Lux just simply isn't a valid metric for measuring what we need to know. It's sort of like shopping for a new car, and wanting to know the MPG. You ask the guy, and instead he tells you how many horsepower it has. While the two may be roughly correlated with each other, it's not really a useful metric for trying to figure out what you're getting. 

I also don't think LED's are as common as you might think. High quality LED fixtures are still stupidly expensive. I'd rather have T5HO for a lower price point and better coverage at this point anyways. Low-mid end LED's are certainly coming down in price tho, and are definitely more common then they were even 3 or 4 years ago. 


And color temperature again, isn't super accurate. You can have several different outputs of light, all with the same color temperature. It's definitely an easy thing to look for though, and I'll be the first to admit I've bought some cheap ass t8's just based on the fact that they were around 6500K and were what I needed. But if I'm investing serious money into a light, I'll completely ignore the color temp, and focus on the spectral output chart. I have some Giesemann Aqua-floras in my 4x24W T5HO fixture that would have a horrendous color temperature. They are a pink bulb, I don't even want to think about what color temp that comes out to. But they'll grow plants better than any other tube light out there because they spike in the right part of the spectrum. They just don't look super appealing to the eye on their own. 

I think it all comes down to what you're trying to grow. If it's just moss, and some low light plants, by all means, a cheapo t8 6500k is probably all you need. But if you're growing demanding, more rare plants that need a high light and relying on Lux and color temp alone, you're gonna end up being disappointed. Or at the very least, misinformed. And what's the point of being misinformed when we have the intergoogles?


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Hmm interesting. I'm going to post that pic when I get home so you two can see what I have to work with. T8's would save some money. But those other pent lights might be sweet for future vivariums. Thank you for all this info and help! 


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I think for your purpose, MohlerBear, you would probably be fine with most of the discussed options. As mentioned, if you go the tube bulb route and don't have a good reflector (there aren't many good, cheap options here), you will be losing much of your light to the directions that don't face your mosses. That is one thing I like about the LEDs is that they put most of their output in the direction that actually benefits you. Plus, I really don't like my electricity bill going toward heat 

TaratulaGuy, I can echo your comments about planted tank folks vs. vivarium folk. It is an interesting phenomena. As for the pink Geissmans, I know that GE's version of that pink bulb was billed as "9352K" and I used them for years. They brought out really good plant growth. However, they were so hideous that they had to be cut with bulbs from other spectra before I could even look at the tank ;-) I hated putting the $100 into replacing all of that mess every year or so, too. I moved to a RapidLED setup for my 90 planted tank a few years ago and have never looked back. I only buy LEDs for my vivs, too. They are so inexpensive and I have not had any problems with the Beam Dog and EVO fixtures that TopDog sells on Ebay. Ironically, the only problem I have had had is the only Jungle Dawn bulb I bought conked out on me after a little more than a year. The off-brand ones that Idris sells are still going strong for me, though.

Best of luck, MohlerBear. I am sure you will be ok with whatever you buy.

Mark


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Mark
Hey thank you for you input! I think you've officially sold me to a fixture that topdog sells. I'll prob get two of the 24" or 30". I feel like those would be the best bet to keep the mosses alive, healthy and possibly growing. 
Thank you!


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

No worries, MohlerBear. I would look hard between the pents that PubFiction recommended and the EVO 3w. I have drifted toward having fewer, higher-wattage arrays (EVOs and the BeamDog ones) but the pents seem to adopt the other approach. I honestly don't know which would be better, but pay attention to the claimed lumen outputs and maybe that will help you make the decision. The ones I have were listed as freshwater, tropical, plant, discus, etc. I have really enjoyed the look of the light that these fixtures produce. I have about 5 of them in various sizes now.

Good luck!

Mark


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

They are called evo 3w? I'll have to look those up too. Maybe they make them in similar sizes like 24"&36". 


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

TarantulaGuy said:


> I'll have to disagree with you on a few points. But I want to be clear, I'm not trying to pick a fight! I just like a good discussion on lights
> 
> PAR meters can run from a little over 100$ to about 400$ for a variety, I'm sure there are some over 1500$ if you're looking for higher end stuff, but no one needs that. Plenty of hobbyists have them, but apparently less so in the dart hobby. I spent several years in the planted tank hobby, and PAR meters are not uncommon there. Granted, planted tank enthusiasts dedicate fare more time and attention to lighting then dart hobbyists do, for some unknown reason.
> 
> ...



OK but you are thinking in absolute terms I am thinking in practical applied terms. If you have the information needed from intergoogles present it and we will use the information. Let's ask the most basic question where is the PAR levels map for the cheap light fixtures we are discussing stretching out to 12 inches each way. Then what are the PAR value ranges for growing moss. I cannot provide all of these pieces of information however I can drop a lux meter in my tank right over some growing moss and get a number as well as do exactly the same with the same device for both of the lights we are discussing. Real world numbers a single measurement device applied to all 3 scenarios. 

All measures are just a proxy, some measures are better than others but that does not mean that the simple existence of a better measure makes the other measures invalid. If you want to invalidate lux then you must show me the spectrum of the lights in question and explain why lux is going to give me a very wrong measure. I have looked at the spectrum of a wide variety of cheap LEDs and almost all of them have a very similar profile. That profile does not change much at a particular K rating until you step up in price to fixtures with mixed color diodes, IE the grow and glow. As said if you can find me the spectrum of these lights and dismiss lux reading by showing they have a ridiculously different spectrum go ahead. My point on the PAR meter is not that they are useless but they also have drawbacks. However that does not mean the drawbacks make them invalid, it simply means you must consider those drawbacks. I would like a link to the $100 PAR meter I am not familiar with it. The most common PAR meters I have seen and used are Apogee meters and they are about $300 and for that price they still fail to read far red light past about 660nm. Luckily though most of these cheap LEDs don't have much light out that far, but I have already stated I think that makes lux a comparable measure when you consider the rather consistent spectrum of white LEDs at 6500k. 





Mohlerbear said:


> They are called evo 3w? I'll have to look those up too. Maybe they make them in similar sizes like 24"&36".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They do have them I did not suggest them because they are typically more expensive and they are better in taller tanks as they tend to focus more light down. In the case of very low moss I think the spread on a the ones I linked is more valuable to you in addition to the cheaper price.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I have 4 of these (2x 24" and 2x 30"): 

EVO 30" 6500K LED Aquarium Light Freshwater Plant Tetra Discus 20x 3 Watts 75 Cm | eBay

and one of these:

LED 24" 1600 Timer 6500K LED Aquarium Light Freshwater Plant Tropical Fish 1W | eBay

I think maybe this is what PubFiction was talking about, but I am not 100% certain:
LED Pent 72" 0 5W Timer 6500K Aquarium Light Freshwater Plant Tropical Fish 280X | eBay

All very reasonably priced, IMHO. Also reliable so far, but I have only had the one I have had the longest for about 2 years so far.

Mark


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

What about this pubfiction. It's not the pent though,
BeamsWork 36"-40" Single Bright Power LED Aquarium Light Fixture 600 


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

It's between that one I just put down or the pent one!


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I am not sure which light you posted unless you have a link. But it seems like it is probably a 36 inch light. I don't see how that size works well in your situation. I see 3 possibilities with the boxes you have. 3x24" as I suggested above. 1 or 2 x 48" as we started, 1 72 inch and you turn the boxes 90 degrees making a very long but narrow configuration.


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Pubfiction said:


> I am not sure which light you posted unless you have a link. But it seems like it is probably a 36 inch light. I don't see how that size works well in your situation. I see 3 possibilities with the boxes you have. 3x24" as I suggested above. 1 or 2 x 48" as we started, 1 72 inch and you turn the boxes 90 degrees making a very long but narrow configuration.



I was thinking I could just do 2 36". No it wasn't a link, just the title of it on the Amazon page. I'll be posting a pic when I get home so it's clear as to what I mean. I think 2 36" would work great considering the total length of two bins put together is 40" I think, and I could have them laying long ways on top of the glass. Sorry for the confusion pubfiction. BTW I'm about to go crazy with all that driftwood I bought from you. I may end up buying another if I mow through all this with the first two tanks 😝


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Pubfiction said:


> Yes I have 3 of these 30 inch ones. That is how I measured the lux they output.


I ended up going ahead and getting them. I can rest easy now knowing my moss will be okay! 
Thanks again

Oh and here is the set up I was talking about so it with the moss bins. Appreciate the help


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks for everyones help!


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

So now I'm second guessing myself. How many lumens is too many?


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

If you have too much light you can back it off by raising it. If you have too little light you have to buy more.


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

Pubfiction said:


> If you have too much light you can back it off by raising it. If you have too little light you have to buy more.



I ended up going with your suggestion pub. They arrive today. Pretty pumped!


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I have to .5 watt beamswork fixture and it works great and I also have a quad 3 watt fixture from them. Both grow moss and bromeliads just fine the 3 watt is obviously better but quite a bit more expensive. I think for most plants the .5 will grow what you want in the sterilite containers. Par ratings are not 100% accurate with leds as the individual spectrums are stronger than most lighting and they can give false readings. The Chinese leds grow coral and plants just fine and I own many types of leds and the cheap Chinese ones are just or nearly as good as the expensive Still Chinese lights. If you buy bulbs like you should for a t5 every 6 months it will pay for it's self I n 2 years anyway and I've had mine for over a year and would buy them any day of the week. Go for it and topdog sellers is amazing. I will attach a picture of my 3 watt and then my .5 watt next so you can see. A picture of color rendition for yourself it's better than any words we can write. =)


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

3 watt quad fixture over 18 x18x24


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Here is the pent .5 watt 36" ×7" beamswork fixture


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Just in case you decide to go led next time it works great my rare ferns spore great and the rest of my plants do well too. =)


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

planted-tnk-guy said:


> I have to .5 watt beamswork fixture and it works great and I also have a quad 3 watt fixture from them. Both grow moss and bromeliads just fine the 3 watt is obviously better but quite a bit more expensive. I think for most plants the .5 will grow what you want in the sterilite containers. Par ratings are not 100% accurate with leds as the individual spectrums are stronger than most lighting and they can give false readings. The Chinese leds grow coral and plants just fine and I own many types of leds and the cheap Chinese ones are just or nearly as good as the expensive Still Chinese lights. If you buy bulbs like you should for a t5 every 6 months it will pay for it's self I n 2 years anyway and I've had mine for over a year and would buy them any day of the week. Go for it and topdog sellers is amazing. I will attach a picture of my 3 watt and then my .5 watt next so you can see. A picture of color rendition for yourself it's better than any words we can write. =)



Good call on the t5 no go. I ended up with the .5 watt beamswork 30" 6500k from topdog. I got a couple of them. I think they're awesome! I may raise them up a foot off the bins but they are sweet and should def get some growth going. 


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

planted-tnk-guy said:


> Just in case you decide to go led next time it works great my rare ferns spore great and the rest of my plants do well too. =)



I have only ever used led. All I have are JD but I wasn't sure if it was worth it for just growing stuff. I should've known led was the way to go, to begin with, I'm happy with them. I'd prefer to always stick to led and don't think I'll ever not have them.
I was thinking I could even put one 30" over 3 ten gallon verts. 


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I probably would have known that if I had not read this at midnight lol. But yes you can't go wrong anymore with most the leds. They are all built in a few factories in China so as long as you use cooling fans they should last just as long as the rest of them. Right now I try to take the par ratings with a grain of salt as the technology is so new and and they have such condensed par values in each color that it can mess up the results a bit unless. They are most definitely plant capable and people have been growing amazing orchids under T12 for 40+ year so I'm sure it's better than that lol. =) they are getting so cheap and are getting cheaper each year with more and more people switching to leds in their homes it can only get better and that's exciting. Sorry I missed that you wrote you only use leds my bad =). Pictures are easier to go by in my opinion and it's not as easy to find for vivs with these lights. I just dove in and tried them without good reviews for the price of my new bulbs and was in love ever since.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Oh sorry I should have mentioned if you are on k y growing moss and lower light plants you can go with the .5 watt but if you want red plants at the bottom such as Cryptanthus to get the brightest go with the 3 watts if you can spare the cash they will grow anything you can throw at them you just need to fertilize more often to compensate for the extra fuel is all my moss tells me when to fertilize by yellowing out when it's on empty lol. Sheets of shade cloth work well under them if it's really needed but I haven't needed to go that route yet. I hope that helps you a bit with the cheap guys and these are better than my planted plus name brand ones even with two these are better. I'm not big on the marketing game as some so I could care less of who slapped their fancy name on a product made in the same factory lol. It's like generic prescription drugs lol.


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