# Pumilio...What?



## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

Ok, to make a long story short I got a pair of pumilio from my brother in-law. He told me that they are Almirante, but, I just found out that he got them from Danielle Fields who has them listed on Kingsnake as "Strawberry Blue Jeans". I really don't want to put a title on them until I know for sure what they are. he also told me that they were imported in May or June. The kingsnake ad states that she has had them for 45 days which would put it somewhere in August. I'm going to try and do some more digging. If anyone knows anything about the recent imports or maybe anything about the "Strawberry Blue Jeans" that Danielle Fields is selling on Kingsnake I would greatly appreciate it.

This is the Kingsnake ad
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=14&de=542529

The picture in the ad is fairly representative of what they look like.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

I don't know this vendor but as the other two morphs look like Cayo Agua and Chiriqui or Colon I would think the others were also Panamanian. Likely Man Creek/Almirante since they likely went through that town to get into Bocas.

Chris


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

The coloring on the legs is more of a turquoise blue and grey mixed and turns to more of a blue on the underside of the legs. The females body is more of an orange red almost red but just not quite and the male is more red.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Almirante. I actually wrote that dealer and told them they were Almirante.

s


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

Scott said:


> Almirante. I actually wrote that dealer and told them they were Almirante.
> 
> s


So, are these Almirante as in collected near Almirante or are they Almirante as in could be Almirante or Man Creek because some people view them as one and the same? Not trying to be difficult. I just want to be sure and get it right. Do you know who the Importer was or have any info like that?

Thanks
Jason


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

There are some red frogs with blue legs that have come in on and off for years that have gone under a variety of names... the blue jeans being the most incorrect (true blue jeans are from costa rica and nicaragua and look different in hand) with almerante and man creek being the more commonly excepted (and interchangably used) names... which is interesting since those animals do not have truely solid source data to back up the names (like GPS data). There ARE almerante in the hobby with locality data - recent imports from SNDF came in with that info - but any other animals likely just fall under the "almirante/man creek" name that the hobby has given them.


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*Pumilio*

Thanks for the info Corey. I guess I'll just file them under "Almirante/Man Creek" ....


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

There are already man creeks and almirante pdp-lr and pdp-ja locales(opposite sides of the town?) in the hobby. If you don`t know which of the 3 populations they are from maybe they should just be labeled red w/ blue leg pumilio.


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*Pumilio*

I contacted the vendor via Email to see if I can find out who the importer was. From what I found on maps Almirante and Man Creek are about 40-50 miles apart. Is one of these sites at Man Creek and the other at Almirante?
Is there someplace online that maybe has a map or a list with the collection site data of the different populations such as pdp-lr and pdp-ja. I know SNDF had some site data on some of their imports. Are there any other importers that get the collection site data? Mark Lucas and WWF, from what I have read, do not get collection site data. 

Thanks for the help guys!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

At this time there are very few importers that get true collection data... 

When you are dealing with wc animals, they go through the following chain of "custody" 

collectors (note plural) who gather and hold animals until exporter or agent comes through and buys them (as there are multiple collectors they can be from multiple sites) 

agents (again note plural) who go around to the various collectors who gather the animals up and take them to the exporters

exporters (sometimes plural, sometimes not) 

importers/jobbers (sometimes they sell directly to the hobby sometimes not)

resellers (or agents for pet stores) (these can be mail order or at swaps) 

pet stores 

As you look at the chain of custody, it is easy to see how it is hard to get real locality data for the frogs. Particuarly when as seen in this example, the seller has named them for what they think they appear to be.... 

Ed


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*site data*

Thanks Ed, You definitely shed some light on the subject for me. The whole Pumilio Name game really has some issues..LOL. So as far as I gather, with all of the hands that the animals go through, even the animals with "site data" may or may not be from the quoted site because the info gets passed through so many hands. It also leads back to the person the info is coming from. Are the collectors just trying get us out of there hair or are they actually giving us correct data on where the frogs where collected? From what I've read nobody is really sure if any of these frogs were collected near Man Creek and it is just a tossed around term for the frogs that look like these but don't have any location data? As far as "Almirante/Man Creek" , to me, it really doesn't make much sense as Almirante and Man Creek are 40-50ish miles apart. So would I be safe to just call them Man Creek as it is, from what i've noticed, widely used as sort of a Generic Name for the Red and Blue Pumilio that don't have any certain location data?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

SNDF has locale data because they work directly w/ the exporter. Man Creeks have been coming in for the last couple years. When they were asked where they were collected the exporter pointed to the place on the map which the closest label on the map was man creek. Now that there are 3 of the same looking morph coming in the only way to tell what is what is by getting them from someone who spends the time to keep them seperate i.e. sndf. If they didn`t come in more than 5 months ago they cannot be definate man creeks. anything imported before then can be labeled man creek. The man creek/almirante doesn`t do any good for the seperate populations that were already or are now in the hobby.


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

Thanks Aaron,

Looks like my next W/C Pumilio will come from SNDF.
So are SNDF, WWF, and Mark Lucas the only three Imprters of these frogs at the moment?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As Aaron noted, SNDF does have correct site (or at least as close as we can get) data. 

As noted in the ad, the dealer is calling them bluejeans which they are not.. 

Now if you like how those frogs look, it doesn't mean that they are not worth maintaining but a sufficiently large group would have to be aquired to maintain them longterm and the frogs would have to be from that import (although there isn't any guarantee that all of those frogs came from the same population (although its is probably very likely) as other imports may not be from the same region even if they look the same... 
The methods for how to do this can be viewed in the ASN at the treewalkers site.. 

(I think we are at serious risk of some non-locality specific morphs being lost to the hobby if people keep concentrating solely on locality specific data.. (as an indication of the trend, look at how often auratus were offered for sale even a few years ago compared to today or some of the tinct morphs.....) 

Ed


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

Thanks a bunch for the help guys!


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

*Shakes head*

You know, I'm going to do my masters and/or PhD on pumilio and do molecular work for the entire complex. Maybe habitat for masters and molecular data on PhD. Just so that all of this confusion can perhaps disappear. Well, partially for that :lol: Personally, I'd say that Man Creek and Almirante are the same morph from different locations; much like Cauchero and Darklands are the same morph just from different locations.

This is one thing that drives me nuts about this hobby!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

What should drive you nuts is the use of the term "morph". 



> I'd say that Man Creek and Almirante are the same morph from different locations


That irks me a bit... makes it sound like it's the same frog in two places many, many km apart. This isn't true... it's just similar expressions of phenotypes that have popped up in different places. Similar... yet different  Happens in auratus and tinctorius as well. Very similar looking animals with nearly identical phenotypes pop up across the population of the species- especially true of species that have had their populations broken up some time in the past (such as pumilio/auratus in panama with the rise and lowering of sea levels).

In the hobby when similar "morphs" show up in the hobby... that are from two distinct populations... this gives more weight to breeding "like with like"... but with bastis (in the hobby) that's obviously an issue because they show way more variation that many other pumilio show in their populations... it's all about understanding what population your frogs are from... and how much/how little variation in that population there is, and other populations they are easily mixed with.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

More really needs to be done in order to key out what is the "same" and what is different. I know morphs can look similar (Blue Jeans and Almirante are great examples), but I don't see the separation between the Almirante/Man Creek populations that you do with Almirante and Blue Jeans, for example. Granted, I haven't gone through the habitat with a fine toothed comb to see if there's a barrier that would separate them.

This is where I hope my research will separate out populations to say if they truly are different from one another. For all I know, there could be several genetically distinct populations of the Red-Frog-With-Blue-Legs morph between Almirante and Man Creek! Unfortunately, I've only got toe samples from Almirante, but I hope in the future to get samples from "Man Creek" if for nothing else to get a different area to see how similar the genetics are. But as is, I'd say that they're the same "population." I'll admit that I could very well be wrong in that assessment. Hopefully I can do a complete phylogeny on the complex with multiple samples from multiple sites. There's a number of researchers now working to publish a phylogeny of the complex, but to my knowledge, they're not doing all of the morphs. Just 12-15 of them. That'll be enough to give a general idea of what's happening with the complex, but I don't think that it'll be as complete as it should be. Personally, I want to hit them all. At least, all of the known ones so far.

Unfortunately, I don't think that will change much in the hobby now since there is little record of where frogs were caught, but hopefully in the future and definitely for ex situ breeding programs!


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*Pumilio*

It is very possible that they are one and the same. Almirante and Man Creek aren't actually that far apart. As far as the Almirante collection site data and there being multiple collection sites, are the populations around Almirante interspersed? Isn't Almirante a very small village?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

When there is a genral difference in appearance between collection areas, it`s better to keep them seperate till it is figured out. If we ever run out of bloodlines than these almirante/man creek could be used to infuse new blood into either lines" but the almirante pdplr07 "morph I recieved are more red than any of my man creeks are and generally have a darker color to the legs, not grey as I see in a lot of man creeks.
The problem is more w/ the market than anything else. The mancreekalmirante are prettty variable and the almirantelr07 are a better looking frog, more red and dark legged reminiscent of the black jeans of old. 
Geneticswise they are probably very similar considering look and distance. Since we aren`t repopulating it probably doesn`t matter. If you are looking for a marlboro red frog w/ dark legs it does matter.


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