# Please critique my first dart enclosure! (And first bioactive!)



## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Hello! I’ve been lurking in this forum for a few months, but have only been able to join now due to some issues with the website. This is definitely a great resource to anyone looking into frogs, and I’m very happy to be a part of it.

This set up will be housing a pair of dendrobates tinctorious “Azureus” and eventually, hopefully, Hawaiian mourning geckos. I will be getting these on February 15th from Josh’s Frogs at the Arlington NARBC expo. 

I would like to preface this by saying that I am normally very against mixing species, and I’ve spent enough time persuading people not to keep their redfoot tortoise with their Russians on another forum to be disgusted by the idea most times. However, I’ve been looking into both species for a very long time, and am very interested in the gecko’s ability to rid the enclosure of pests like spiders and maybe even keep fruit fly escapes down. I do, though, accept that this may just be me trying to make excuses for wanting to keep them together, as long as there is no harm in doing it.

Obviously I will be keeping the mournings in a quarantine tank (which I already have set up) for months, at least until they’re full grown. They will also be coming from the same source to reduce the risk of disease spread, and I will always have a vertical 10 gallon set up just in case. I would never want to attempt this without having ample experience with keeping them separately.

I am absolutely open to any concerns, and ESPECIALLY examples of it going wrong. I have not found one myself, but that could just mean I haven’t looked hard enough. I would never want to risk my pets’ welfare, so please, hit me with any potential problems.

It is a “Thrive” brand 18x18x24. Substrate is a mixture of organic topsoil, sphagnum moss, and coconut coir. It has been seeded with dwarf white isopods and springtails.








(Please tell me if the pictures are too low quality, the Tapatalk app won’t let me upload them in full resolution unless I pay a subscription :/)
There is a small water dish under the bridge with 2 pothos cuttings propagating in it, the water is pretty shallow.

Plants that are included-
Pillow moss
Pothos
2 different begonias 
A money tree
Ficus pumila 
Air plants
Croton 
Rosey maiden hair fern
Sweet potato vine
Fittonia “pink vein”
And assorted fairy garden things along with oak leaf litter.

For hides I have a cork flat, a crocodile skull (a little hard to see), and a cute ceramic mushroom birdhouse.

For the mourning geckos, I’m hoping that the pothos and ficus will really grow in by the time I get them in there. The background holds a bunch of cork tubes that they have access to, and I included a little shelf at the top for them to hide under. I have a low wattage lamp that keeps the top right corner at 80-87, and the rest of the tank at 69-74. There’s a very large temperature gradient. I’ll probably add a few more hides for them eventually.

Would you guys recommend having a separate quarantine tank for the frogs, or just starting them in this tank? I have no other frogs, and the only other reptiles in the house are a ball python and bearded dragon, if you’re not counting the Sulcata tortoise outdoors.

Thank you for reading my way-too-long spiel! Please let me know if I missed anything 


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

And here’s a picture of the unplanted background if anyone wants it










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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

I’m not experienced enough to put much comment on mixing, but since the geckos you want to mix are Hawaiian, it is likely not a good idea to mix them with azureus because of the different pathogens each species contains potentially harming the animals. For substrate, you want ingredients like orchid bark, tree fern fiber, and horticulture charcoal, which keeps the soil from compacting and holding too much moisture. Look into ABG mix. The croton will outgrow that tank. The sweet potato vine and money tree will get too large as well. I also suggest using a quarantine tank for the frogs, if they end of being sick or having parasites they could contaminate your tank.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

gonzalez said:


> I’m not experienced enough to put much comment on mixing, but since the geckos you want to mix are Hawaiian, it is likely not a good idea to mix them with azureus because of the different pathogens each species contains potentially harming the animals. For substrate, you want ingredients like orchid bark, tree fern fiber, and horticulture charcoal, which keeps the soil from compacting and holding too much moisture. Look into ABG mix. The croton will outgrow that tank. The sweet potato vine and money tree will get too large as well. I also suggest using a quarantine tank for the frogs, if they end of being sick or having parasites they could contaminate your tank.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Whoops, forgot to add that there’s bark in the substrate! Thank you for your input 
The only thing I’m curious about with mournings is that they’re commonly used as feeders for other reptiles that require lizards as part of their diet. Is pathogen mixing not a problem there?

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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Whoops, forgot to add that there’s bark in the substrate! Thank you for your input
> The only thing I’m curious about with mournings is that they’re commonly used as feeders for other reptiles that require lizards as part of their diet. Is pathogen mixing not a problem there?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The dart frog community tends to be a lot more careful and strict than other areas of reptile and amphibian keeping. Pathogens can jump between species. Best to mitigate the risk as much as possible so that when people do mix they make sure the animals come from the exact same location. Even then it is only done by people with lots of experience with both species, and in larger enclosures than this one. 


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Whoops, forgot to add that there’s bark in the substrate! Thank you for your input
> The only thing I’m curious about with mournings is that they’re commonly used as feeders for other reptiles that require lizards as part of their diet. Is pathogen mixing not a problem there?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"Commonly"? No. MGs are far too expensive to be a common feeder. Feeding lizards of any sort to other herps is, statistically speaking in the hobby, very, very rare. It is also done only with herp species that (1) would not survive in captivity without such feedings, and (2) only responsibly done by very advanced keepers with access to anthelmintic drugs.

Yes, pathogens are a problem whenever feeding animals to other taxonomically similar animals. It is one reason you shouldn't eat other primates, one reason feeding freshwater aquarium fish to other freshwater aquarium fish is a bad idea, and the main reason why it is illegal to sell cow meat in cow food.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Geckoes are cricket eaters

Dart Frogs are fruit fly eaters

I just don't get the influx of people wanting to add a bunch of vertebrates to a small enclosure. I mean, I do, I guess but man....

That enclosure is small.

My advice, since you asked, is to stick with either the frogs or the geckos, not both.

High Humidity will be a problem / issue for the Geckoes as well. 

If the top light and dome is not LED and gets hot, you will have a problem there as well.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Philsuma said:


> Geckoes are cricket eaters
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The geckos actually do eat fruit flies since they are only 2-4 inches long and have the same humidity needs as the frogs (as well as every other care requirement, besides the fact that they’re active at the opposite time of day and opposite side of the enclosure and occasionally eat CGD), but I will stick the your advice. There is a plant growing LED at the top of the enclosure as well as the lamp 


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Is there anything that needs to be changed about the terrarium itself besides probably having to switch out some plants later and hoping that the substrate mix doesn’t fail?

Thank you guys for the advice!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The Mourning Gecko + Other tiny Guys and Especially Dart Frogs thing, is a Theory vs Practice example, actually, I can think of no other better example of TvP.

It does sell though, and that doesnt help. But so do Kritter Keepers.


A native gecko species on the wall catching a native spider in an apartment in a South Asian house doesnt translate to prey/predator relationships slotting themselves neatly into our vivariums.

Our domicile savvy arachnids are so waaaay ahead of the game when it comes to setting up house in a herp environment. Trust me, Ive watched it, wiped it, plucked it, re located it you name it.

Google: "My Mourning Geckos eradicated all the spiders in my Dart Frog viv" and see if there are before and after videos, or any images that can verify the claim. 

It is an attractive idea for some people but its not a good idea for the animals in such a closed system.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Google: "My Mourning Geckos eradicated all the spiders in my Dart Frog viv" and see if there are before and after videos, or any images that can verify the claim.
> 
> 
> 
> It is an attractive idea for some people but its not a good idea for the animals in such a closed system.


Thank you! That is a very good point with the google search thing, but can’t it also be said with searching things like “mourning geckos killed dart frogs”, “mourning geckos and dart frog problems”, “Mourning geckos mess with dart frogs”, etc? I have not seen anything other than success stories, and I have seen no examples of it going wrong. This obviously does not mean someone couldn’t be the first, and I’m probably not going to attempt it because, as you said, my enclosure is likely too small for it, but it is an interesting thing to see.

Thank you for the insight! This post is definitely pretty valuable.




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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> the fact that they’re active at the opposite time of day and opposite side of the enclosure


False, 100%. Like anti-vaxxer level false. Tinfoil hat stuff.



TechnoCheese said:


> I am normally very against mixing species,


This is an abnormal case...uh...why, again? 



TechnoCheese said:


> Obviously I will be keeping the mournings in a quarantine tank (which I already have set up) for months, at least until they’re full grown. They will also be coming from the same source to reduce the risk of disease spread, and I will always have a vertical 10 gallon set up just in case. I would never want to attempt this without having ample experience with keeping them separately.


'Months' isn't 'ample experience'. 'Breeding multiple generations' comes close.

Once the MGs are established and breeding in the display, you won't be removing them without a full tear down, and I assume that 10g isn't for the frogs. This is only one of the hundreds of useful things you learn only after years of keeping a species.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Thank you! That is a very good point with the google search thing, but can’t it also be said with searching things like “mourning geckos killed dart frogs”, “mourning geckos and dart frog problems”, “Mourning geckos meds with dart frogs”, etc? I have not seen anything other than success stories, and I have seen no examples of it going wrong.


People being what we are, we tend not to advertise our fails. If we did, Instagram would be 99% pics of bad hair days. 

Absence of evidence, and all that, as well.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> False, 100%. Like anti-vaxxer level false. Tinfoil hat stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I counted it as an abnormal case because there are high levels of success with it and I have not found a single example of it going wrong. This obviously does not mean that I or anyone else could not be the first, but it is something to consider. I’d call it an “exception vs example” mind set, but having it go right would not be the exception. However, as I stated in a previous post, I probably will not be attempting it.

That is a very good point with the 10 gallon not being for the frogs. It would be to move the mourning geckos into in case of a problem. I was already aware that they would be gluing eggs in the enclosure and most likely in the background, but it for some reason slipped my mind that I would likely be unable to remove the eggs if I did need to have them separated. I do have an extra 20 long laying around that I could set up as a “just in case” frog tank, but again, since I probably will no longer be attempting this, it would do me no good.

Thank you!


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Would a 5.0 UVB tube benefit the frogs? I’m going to be giving it to the mourning geckos, but I’ll get another fixture if it has an effect on the frogs.


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

UVB is not needed or required for the frogs, and if the lid is glass you they won’t be getting anything out of it anyway.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

gonzalez said:


> UVB is not needed or required for the frogs, and if the lid is glass you they won’t be getting anything out of it anyway.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The lid is not glass, thank you 


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The deeper one gets into the keeping of animals, the less frequently a keeper feels they have achieved "A high level of success"

The refinement of our charges care and well being is never done.

We study and gather in multidisciplinary foray to build an informational musculature for studies that are presently lacking. 

We listen to our intuition, we watch, we watch, we watch.

A high level of success for those long of tooth in watching, is to promote unaltered behavior, as much as possible. We want to see true behaviors, it is the impetus for much of the work. We realize it as a continual work. 

De sensitization of animals barriered together strikes a more aberrant response that could not be taken as a success just because the subjects stay alive.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

^^ excellent response.


There are thousands of failures and deaths of frogs - drowning, stress death, bacterial and parasitic issues, horrible vivarium design, too small enclosure, cricket and roach frog predation, feeding undusted insects ect ect...that you will NEVER hear about. No one (hardly, percentage-wise) reports their failures with these issues. There are so many more failures than most people realize.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Kmc said:


> The deeper one gets into the keeping of animals, the less frequently a keeper feels they have achieved "A high level of success"
> 
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> ...




Very good points!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

oh, as a corollary of sorts.

Attending over 10 'Frog Day', I.A.D, gatherings and lots of meetings, is where you will hear the horror stories that will never make it to print on the interwebz.

the failures are realz.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Philsuma said:


> oh, as a corollary of sorts.
> 
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Oh wow, is there a specific place where you can find these? Sounds like a good opportunity to learn


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

gonzalez said:


> UVB is not needed or required for the frogs


Nor the geckos. 

UV (both UVA and UVB) has some serious negative effects on dart frogs in captivity. Search here for details; I'm not about to rehash what has been said much better than I could repeat from memory, since it importantly involves article citations.

On another topic: I don't see (or see mention of) a drainage plan (void space, drain fitting, etc). I also wonder, if the top isn't glass (and presumably isn't acrylic or polycarb, since you imply UVB can be transmitted), how much misting you intend to do to keep humidity where it belongs (perhaps you live where it is obscenely humid? Can't tell when so many folks don't list their location...)? And with a..a.._heat lamp_? Lots of misting+unsuitable substrate+serious convection+no drainage is gonna be a rotten mess. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Edit: oh, you have sulcatas outside? Yeah, this water situation might be a problem.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Oh wow, is there a specific place where you can find these? Sounds like a good opportunity to learn
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


American Frog Day : Home

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gtsearch.php?q=frog day


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Nor the geckos.
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While mourning geckos do not need UVB, it has been reported to be very beneficial to them and their growth. A very good portion of animals that do not require UVB can still benefit greatly from it, which is why I asked.

There is a 2 inch deep drainage layer covered in landscaping fabric. Humidity has been holding steadily at 80-90% at the bottom of the tank, and 60-80 at the top depending on where you measure. I am able to siphon the water out of one of the corners. I have had this tank set up for a little more than a week and have had no problems with humidity.

I have tried listing my location, but I cannot even access my account other than logging in because I keep getting this message-








I can’t look at other people’s accounts either.

I live in north Texas.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Knowledge is powerful, important, crucial, when focused on the care of animals we choose to keep captive. 

Courtesy toward the living is also wonderful, and satisfying in a way that can fulfill other desires for what we as humans think of as cute, or more exciting.

Its harder to come by, often inconvenient to apply but man, its so worth it. 

They are so incredible, so beautiful, so fascinating. They deserve all the consideration we can muster.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> While mourning geckos do not need UVB, it has been reported to be very beneficial to them and their growth. A very good portion of animals that do not require UVB can still benefit greatly from it, which is why I asked.


That's way overstated. The 'very' and 'greatly' are hyperbole.

A lot of BS 'has been reported'. It 'has been reported' that MGs can't tolerate Vit A supplementation (this is, BTW, also false, and can easily be demonstrated). 

To my knowledge, the only captive herp that was historically kept without UVB but subsequently _documented_ to benefit from it is leopard geckos. I don't have a citation to the study handy, but I recall the 'benefit' was improved bone density, which in captive leos kept in traditional setups is not a problem.

I'd enjoy hearing about any actual studies, but internet mythology not so much.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> To my knowledge, the only captive herp that was historically kept without UVB but subsequently _documented_ to benefit from it is leopard geckos. I don't have a citation to the study handy, but I recall the 'benefit' was improved bone density, which in captive leos kept in traditional setups is not a problem.


I think this is the study; if it was, I too engaged in hyperbole. The study shows that leopard geckos can in fact use UVB to synthesize D3. No benefit shown, since leos do in fact utilize dietary D3 well.

https://www.jherpmedsurg.com/doi/abs/10.5818/17-11-136.1


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That's way overstated. The 'very' and 'greatly' are hyperbole.
> 
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> 
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The effects of UVB on captive snakes, including ones that are generally considered crepuscular or nocturnal.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/I...ut_the_benefits_of_UV_light_in_captive_snakes

The observations of the author of Reptifiles on UVB with her mournings-
“Mourning geckos are nocturnal, which means that most people assume that they don’t need any kind of lighting. However, I hold a firm belief that even dim lighting is beneficial for nocturnal species to regulate their circadian rhythm (natural day/night cycle). Furthermore, if you have live plants in your mourning gecko terrarium, keeping 6500K fluorescent or LED lights on for 12 hours/day will encourage healthy growth. Again, because mourning geckos are nocturnal, most people make the mistaken assumption that UVB lighting is not beneficial. Mourning geckos can and will bask under UVB lighting if it is provided, and I have noticed that providing UVB makes a significant difference in healthy growth for hatchlings. A 5% UVB bulb like the Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 will be enough. Wild mourning geckos are commonly observed basking and being otherwise active during the day, especially in the morning. In fact, I have found that my own colony becomes very active at “dawn,” or when the lights first turn on in the morning, and sometimes I wake up to their chirping.”

Effects of UVB on fire belly toads
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24810567/

Come on, man. This stuff is not hard to find. And didn’t you just give me “internet mythology” with no studies linked in that very post?

I understand not wanting anecdotal evidence, but in a community that puts such an importance on sharing observations and experiences, that is bound to be what the majority of info you find is. We both know that peer reviewed studies are expensive to fund and take time, so it should not be expected that every observation can be backed up with one.

I’m really not trying to be rude, and I greatly appreciate yours and everyone else’s insight, but please keep an open mind. I really just want my enclosure to be critiqued without being talked down to, or for the focus to be put on an animal that I’m no longer even housing in the enclosure. There is a great wealth of information on this forum, and I really don’t want to be discouraged to keep reading on.



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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Well, I have used UVB inclusive lighting for many years, for many taxa, long before I ever touched a plastic mouse.

My reasons for including it are not complicated, and not focused on "D3" but become that way when discussing it online so I try to avoid it. 

One aspect I have found enhancing, is exploring an invisible yet abundantly present part of reality on our solar centric planet. 

Even if one is "opposed" to uvb inclusive lighting the science of Photobiology is a fascinating addition to the multidisciplinary muses we all find ourselves occupied in, when seeking information about the natural world, evolution, animal perception, and other knowledges that interface in the topic.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Well, I have used UVB inclusive lighting for many years, for many taxa, long before I ever touched a plastic mouse.
> 
> My reasons for including it are not complicated, and not focused on "D3" but become that way when discussing it online so I try to avoid it.
> 
> ...




I agree, and also keep uvb with all of my animals if it has been seen to benefit them. I often see my ball python cryptically basking under his 5.0, and I’ve seen a lot more activity from him in the days around feeding time. I also agree that D3 absorption is not the only effect that it has. It’s really nice to be able to see them exhibit natural behaviors that would occur under real sunlight.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> To my knowledge


Look, I have more knowledge now. Thanks for the links!

Couple points: MGs aren't nocturnal in captivity, in the sense that they sleep all day. They're active when it benefits them (like, when they're fed). Not sure how to read the Reptifiles bit where she says they are nocturnal and they're active during the day... (Same thing with "terrestrial" dart frogs, who in fact climb all over the place). 

I did a _very_ quick browse, and the snake citations seem to establish the same thing as the leo study I cited: increase in serum D3. Not a benefit, exactly (edit: not a benefit in the sense of improving something that needed improving. All these animals have sufficient D3 without UVB and it isn't obvious that more is better).

The toad study looks relevant. Thanks for that. 

No, maybe this stuff isn't hard to find. I don't have a dog in this fight, so I didn't look too hard. 

Also: leading in with a "I'm gonna mix these, what do you think" is the number one best way to get folks' dander up (you've been lurking for a few months, so this shouldn't be a surprise). People don't always get what they want here, but they usually get what they ask for.

And, thanks for calling my bluff on the citations.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Look, I have more knowledge now. Thanks for the links!
> 
> Couple points: MGs aren't nocturnal in captivity, in the sense that they sleep all day. They're active when it benefits them (like, when they're fed). Not sure how to read the Reptifiles bit where she says they are nocturnal and they're active during the day... (Same thing with "terrestrial" dart frogs, who in fact climb all over the place).
> 
> ...




Thank you 


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## Wyofrogs (Sep 25, 2011)

***DIFFERENT CONCERN***

As for the terrarium itself, I understand that many people like to express their individuality through various types of enclosures. I see that you like the "Fairy Garden" expression, which isn't normally seen in a bioactive naturalistic terrarium. My concern doesn't come so much with the artificial decoration, but what is used to make some of the colors found commonly in glazes. There are many people that used clay in their vivs, but most are using clay either in a raw form as a base to backgrounds, or bare fired clay ceramic as pots for building up parts of the enclosure, or keeping plants separate from backgrounds or spreading. I personally love using clay, but only as fired ceramic(and preferably mid-high fire). Colors in glazes are derived from metal oxides and carbonates that can be harmful if ingested. This is my concern with colored glazes. As for the colors themselves here is what could have been used that would be harmful to your frogs- Greens-copper, blue-cobalt, reds-lead. These pieces are most likely commercially done, which means they need to find the cheapest options to produce glazes and clays. This is also true for the firing process. I bet those are lowered pieces that will degrade over time in a humid terrarium. When the degradation begins, those metals will be easily absorbed by frogs. If you would like to limit future problems, I would recommend removing the decorations and replacing them with something more natural.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Wyofrogs said:


> ***DIFFERENT CONCERN***
> 
> 
> 
> As for the terrarium itself, I understand that many people like to express their individuality through various types of enclosures. I see that you like the "Fairy Garden" expression, which isn't normally seen in a bioactive naturalistic terrarium. My concern doesn't come so much with the artificial decoration, but what is used to make some of the colors found commonly in glazes. There are many people that used clay in their vivs, but most are using clay either in a raw form as a base to backgrounds, or bare fired clay ceramic as pots for building up parts of the enclosure, or keeping plants separate from backgrounds or spreading. I personally love using clay, but only as fired ceramic(and preferably mid-high fire). Colors in glazes are derived from metal oxides and carbonates that can be harmful if ingested. This is my concern with colored glazes. As for the colors themselves here is what could have been used that would be harmful to your frogs- Greens-copper, blue-cobalt, reds-lead. These pieces are most likely commercially done, which means they need to find the cheapest options to produce glazes and clays. This is also true for the firing process. I bet those are lowered pieces that will degrade over time in a humid terrarium. When the degradation begins, those metals will be easily absorbed by frogs. If you would like to limit future problems, I would recommend removing the decorations and replacing them with something more natural.




Oh man, thanks! I had no idea! Everything is resin except for the mushroom house. Are the resin decorations alright?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I don't know were to start first..

Please follow the advice for not combining the geckos and the frogs. 

The tank is very small for tinctorius, there also is no leaflitter availbale? Why don't you try and recreate their natural habitat? This tank seems not very adjusted for this type of frogs.


Tinctorius will FRY when using UVB lamps! 

You can't compare dartfrogs with reptiles. There is only a handfull of dartfrogs that benefit from UVB... 99% of these ´dartfrogs are not available (or affordable) for most hobbyist. And even than we have to be carefull with the use of UVB on these frogs.

I don't have an oppinion on you wanting to add fairytale elements to your tank. That is just personal taste. The only thing I am also worried about is the paint used on these and the material they are made of. I would just remove the fairytale stuff simply because they are not made to resist the elements and moisture of a 'jungle'climate. My guess is they are probably harmfull over time for your insects, plants and other animals. (espacialy the paint)

If you want to add fairytale stuff, I suggest you add fairytale stuff made for aquriums. Since they are designed too be constantly submerged.


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## Wyofrogs (Sep 25, 2011)

TechnoCheese said:


> Oh man, thanks! I had no idea! Everything is resin except for the mushroom house. Are the resin decorations alright?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Resin is a tricky subject that I'm going to answer as vaguely as possible. While certain resins are absolutely safe for enclosures, not all are. Like the glaze argument, colors are produced from natural and synthetic means, of which may or may not cause harm to your animals. Most people that setup fairy gardens, don't consider or care about what might be leaching into soil where their plants are growing. And those same people are most likely not using them with delicate fauna. When it comes to placing anything in an enclosure, I try to be as careful as a possible for the health and well being of my inhabitants. If there is a chance the decoration will cause a problem or that limited information exists about the piece, I tend to leave it out.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Tijl said:


> I don't know were to start first..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you! There is leaf litter, but I agree that I should put some more in. And I was not comparing the frogs to reptiles with uvb, just arguing that reptiles that may not necessarily need uvb can benefit from it, specifically on the topic of mourning geckos. I can definitely understand why uvb could possibly be harmful for something with delicate skin like a dart frog, and just wanted to ask in case there was any benefit.

What would be a suitable tank size for these guys? I had read that the general rule was 10 gallons per frog, and that an 18x18 was enough for even 3. I was skeptical of this, especially since they seem to do better in pairs, and decided on just two.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Wyofrogs said:


> Resin is a tricky subject that I'm going to answer as vaguely as possible. While certain resins are absolutely safe for enclosures, not all are. Like the glaze argument, colors are produced from natural and synthetic means, of which may or may not cause harm to your animals. Most people that setup fairy gardens, don't consider or care about what might be leaching into soil where their plants are growing. And those same people are most likely not using them with delicate fauna. When it comes to placing anything in an enclosure, I try to be as careful as a possible for the health and well being of my inhabitants. If there is a chance the decoration will cause a problem or that limited information exists about the piece, I tend to leave it out.




Thank you for the info!


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Is the tank itself just completely unsuitable for tincs? As in too small, planted incorrectly etc. where I might have to just get a new tank or completely tear it down if I wanted to get them. I had read that an 18x18x24 is completely fine for 2, but If I would be doing the frogs a disservice by putting them in there, I may just use it for a nice big mourning gecko colony instead and leave the frogs for another day. Please just let me know if that’s the case 


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I will agree that putting the MGs and the Tincs together is not a good idea. However, if 18x18x24 is too small for a pair of tincs, there is a really large percentage of the hobby that's doing it wrong...

Mark


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> I will agree that putting the MGs and the Tincs together is not a good idea. However, if 18x18x24 is too small for a pair of tincs, there is a really large percentage of the hobby that's doing it wrong...
> 
> 
> 
> Mark




Didn’t it use to be pretty common practice to put pairs in a 10g? I think it still is to a degree.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

gonzalez said:


> Didn’t it use to be pretty common practice to put pairs in a 10g? I think it still is to a degree.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I’ve read that too, so this is definitely a little confusing lol


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

gonzalez said:


> Didn’t it use to be pretty common practice to put pairs in a 10g? I think it still is to a degree.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, probably, but best practices change over time. Most of us are past completely sealing up their vivaria and using a layer of sphagnum under the leaf litter, too, but that doesn't prevent a vocal minority from continuing to advocate for those things.

Mark


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> Yeah, probably, but best practices change over time. Most of us are past completely sealing up their vivaria and using a layer of sphagnum under the leaf litter, too, but that doesn't prevent a vocal minority from continuing to advocate for those things.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark




Yeah, I was just trying to build on your point by saying that if an 18x18x24 is too small, than a good portion of frog keepers are not using large enough enclosures. 


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## Txlady15 (Dec 30, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> Hello! I’ve been lurking in this forum for a few months, but have only been able to join now due to some issues with the website. This is definitely a great resource to anyone looking into frogs, and I’m very happy to be a part of it.
> 
> This set up will be housing a pair of dendrobates tinctorious “Azureus” and eventually, hopefully, Hawaiian mourning geckos. I will be getting these on February 15th from Josh’s Frogs at the Arlington NARBC expo.
> 
> ...


Does your enclosure open from the front? If so, then your mourning geckos will probably escape. They are escape artists! I lost two normal mourning geckos in this manner. I tore my tank apart trying to find them. I assume that they got out while I was cleaning my tank. I won't get more unless I have a top entry tank for them.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

After a lot of thought, I think I’m going to get a nice big colony of mourning geckos for this enclosure, and save the frogs for my extra 20 long at another time. I had so much fun setting up this bioactive, so I might as well give myself an excuse to make another one 

Thank you guys for your help!


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Txlady15 said:


> Does your enclosure open from the front? If so, then your mourning geckos will probably escape. They are escape artists! I lost two normal mourning geckos in this manner. I tore my tank apart trying to find them. I assume that they got out while I was cleaning my tank. I won't get more unless I have a top entry tank for them.




I’ve actually already begun fruit fly proofing the tank, which I’m hoping will help 


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

That isnt always true at all. 

It depends on how you set up station calmly learn what your animals do. Ive had day geckos Regularly run up my arm and back into their environment.

Front openers foster a more benign presence of entrance as you are not continually coming From Above, which they never get used to, doubled with the noise. If they do slip out they are easier to 'guide' back in and the visibility is superior.

I find front openers to create a better quality husbandry platform in every way, including escape factor. 

keep it at chest level.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

IE; the face of the environment opening at a comfortable full standing chest level. Its ideal operationally.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Front opening /2 door, enclosures are superiour to top opening fish tanks in every way.

There is a reason they were 'born' out of herp keeping.

they will limit stress and escapes. 

They will allow maintenance much easier.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

I agree with the above, and it also makes it much easier to maintenance them since you don’t have to reach way down into a tall tank. Just wish it was easier to find them in something bigger than a 40 gallon :/


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

start small and simple

then...

contract out to get a big tank made.

Photo Gallery - Vivariums In The Mist


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Philsuma said:


> start small and simple
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh man, those are nice!


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## Patterhorn (Oct 4, 2019)

Mourning Geckos are escape artist, or so I'm told. I have Mg and darts together .I know it's not popular here. I would suggest sealing up your Viv as much as you can.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Patterhorn said:


> Mourning Geckos are escape artist, or so I'm told. I have Mg and darts together .I know it's not popular here. I would suggest sealing up your Viv as much as you can.


what is the reason you have geckoes and dart frogs together?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Although the mixed species thing had became the dominant commentary, and since your original query saught critique, or better, constructive input on the composition of your environment, I would like to share some input on a small detail about space usage, in a friendly non nitpicky spirit..

Cork shards and tubes, slabs and rounds are planes of usable Dimension. I will speak in generalizations as in the case of surface areas, as such amicable activity opportunities are valuable across taxa. 'Activity Over Accent" .

No matter what space we are working with turning our eye toward what is compatible with the native tendencies of the kept is what enrichment is all about. 

If it were my environment I would move the airplants so that the cork pieces that you have twinned at an angle toward higher aspect, was cleared to be walkable, sprintable.

They are in the way on a strategic surface area. Its also good to have such planes 'going somewhere' usually to a resource, a light, or cover foliage.

That is how animals dont escape, they go 'To' not 'Askew'.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Although the mixed species thing had became the dominant commentary, and since your original query saught critique, or better, constructive input on the composition of your environment, I would like to share some input on a small detail about space usage, in a friendly non nitpicky spirit..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you so much for the constructive input!


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

I actually have some cork flats in the back and middle to serve as hides, but I do want to add more and include some tubes


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

An inordinately familiar, yet somehow _still rather amusing_ little shitstorm in a blender. "Hears turd plop in, then hears someone hit pulse. Like a dumbass, elects to observe the predictable result." Maybe I'm just bored? Hmm.

I actually liked this most:


> People don't always get what they want here, but they usually get what they ask for.


*Now that is a fucking keeper.* Ha ha ha. Nice.

Anyway, OP, if you're really a months-long lurker here you'll know this is a pretty friendly place. With a few opinions. And a lot of first-hand experience. I gotta say you've taken your friendly beating pretty well. I reckon you're gonna do what you're gonna do. _Whatever_ that is, if you learn something, come back and share it.

Good luck!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Air exchange - yes indeed we have shared some of that. I wouldn't be surprised if cork bark was somewhere in there too...

TC, never enough cork bark, its the best!


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Air exchange - yes indeed we have shared some of that. I wouldn't be surprised if cork bark was somewhere in there too...
> 
> 
> 
> TC, never enough cork bark, its the best!




I agree, super exciting to shop for too!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yes! 
I couldn't agree more!


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