# Bromeliad dying



## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

I recently ordered a couple fireballs from Josh's frogs and they came in looking normal. I popped them in the vert tank and now they're turning yellow and not looking too good. They were damn near frozen when i got them, I'm really worried I'm gonna lose them


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Neither of them are planted in the substrate


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## wolfeingtons (Nov 2, 2012)

I had the same thing happen recently. Got in about 10 completely frozen Broms. Mine seem to have all pulled through ok though. I let them thaw out slowly before i brought them straight inside and into the warm tank. Who knows from a picture but they look dry to me. Hows the humidity and watering?


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

Both broms look like they may have gotten some frost-damage - but then they certainly got sunburned on their leaf tips. Plants are exceptionally sensitive to light intensity changes when transplanted. This does not mean they will die - but it will be a long and slow road for their recovery with so much of the mature tissue damaged.

You viv looks rather dry from the image (though I could be wrong). Is there water collected in the broms' pitchers?


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

I have water in the cups, also other broms in the tank are doing well. i let them slowly thaw when i got them, my room is pretty drafty so they didn't get a blast of heat. after they felt fairly warm i cleaned them and put them into the tank. Humidity fluctuates from 65-100 I also placed these as far away from the light as i could as to try not to burn them. They're about 10-11inches from the light.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

That Is the after-effect of frost damage. There is no way a fireball will sunburn in a tank, ( unless it's right under something like a metal halide). Personally, I would:

--complain and show pics;
--not order tropical plants if temps might freeze.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

_All_ plants can sunburn - including a Fireball brom. Even cacti (which are used to more intense light than most bromeliads are ever likely to see) can burn when their orientation to the sun is changed during transplanting.

The damage from frost would have a similar effect - but frost damaged leaves are probably even more sensitive to sunburn.

The fact that are so solidly green (with no orange or red at all) means they were not grown under intense lighting.

Whether frost, sunburn or both these broms look they will survive - though they may limp along for a while before showing much new growth...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

While the statement sounds plausible, it is irrelevant here. Yes, a fireball would burn, outside in central Australia. But what does that have to do with tank culture? Unless placed way too close to very intense lighting--lighting that would harm other organisms--there is no way that is sunburn. 

Sure, a fittonia or fern placed 3" from a 27 w cfl will burn. But there is no indication that Lokira did anything like that.




kimcmich said:


> Greetings,
> 
> _All_ plants can sunburn - including a Fireball brom. Even cacti (which are used to more intense light than most bromeliads are ever likely to see) can burn when their orientation to the sun is changed during transplanting.
> 
> ...


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Groundhog,

All plants are sensitive to sunburn. Sunburn does not require actual sunlight nor exposure near the tropics (which I am guessing was the intent of your central Australia comment) and no species of plant is immune from the problem - even a Fireball brom.

Plants grown in shady conditions (which these very green Fireballs suggest) will burn or bleach under lights that do not damage other organisms or even plants of the same species that were grown under higher light intensity.

@Lokira,

IIRC, is this the newer viv and lighting setup you've been talking about? Just today someone mentioned an LED fixture burning plants - including broms:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/303258-plants-dying-help-define-problem.html#post2814834. Frost exposure would only increase light sensitivity - so you should be attentive to both issues when nursing these plants.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Aw for the love of...

What we have here is a failure to (horticulturally) communicate.

Kim:

1) Please do not presume ignorance;

2) Yes, everyone can sunburn. We ALL know that. But a neoregelia grown under greenhouse conditions is not, never, no-how going to burn when placed ten (10) inches below artificial, non-incandescent lighting. 

3) Josh's Frogs in in Michigan, Lokira is in Ohio. Let's employ Occam's razor here and go for the most plausible explanation. There has been a cold spell, and Lokira even said they arrived half-frozen.

You are in Cali. The amount of sun you receive far exceeds what we get in the northeast. In fact, it is actually quite difficult to provide enough light for Fireballs; for example, in the Brooklyn BG, they grow a huge potted Fireball in an unobstructed greenhouse. Yet every winter it turns green--too many dark, cloudy days. (That is why June Night, Red Waif, various Grace Goode hybrids are actually better bets than fireball or its hybrids).

I can assure you, when neos, aechmeas, dyckias are planted outside here, they never burn. 

I close with some pics. First, my epiphytes burning under t-5s; next, my erect dyckia, growing in full sun (border of 7A/B).


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Groundhog,

You might be less frustrated if you weren't so committed to the notion that I can't possibly be right (which does not mean that you are wrong - frost and bleaching might _both_ be occurring here).

Your position that certain bromeliads are incapable of being sunburned/bleached is simply incorrect. Your statement that non-candescent lights are incapable of sunburning/bleaching a brom is also incorrect.

Your image of a full-sun-growing dyckia, although nice, is beside the point. Many bromeliads can, indeed, grow in full sun - but that does not mean they are immune to sunburn. Even glaucous cacti evolved to grow at high altitude near the equator can be burned when transplanted because the orientation to the light of some of their tissue changes.

We have kinda de-railed this thread. So I will close by repeating: Sunburn/bleaching is an under-appreciated aspect of growing plants in all situations - and it is especially something to keep track of when you are moving plants from one light regime to another (such as when you add new plants to your collection).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kimcmich said:


> @Groundhog,
> 
> You might be less frustrated if you weren't so committed to the notion that I can't possibly be right (which does not mean that you are wrong - frost and bleaching might _both_ be occurring here).


I can see his frustration due to the probability of the source of the problem in this case and your unwillingness to let your determination be considered less accurate .... 

Yes plants can bleach when transplanted but in this case that is highly unlikely to be the reason for the damage to the tips of the leaves. The plants by the OP's statement were pretty much frozen. Now when things are in an environment that is cold enough for cold damage, the cold damage is going to begin in the areas where the greatest heat loss occurs. In short, in the areas with the least cross section or mass, the tips of the leaves. This is where we would expect to see the initial damage caused by the cold. 

Additionally with typical lighting used for frog enclosures, bromeliads that are planted on the bottom of an enclosure (as we see in the OP's picture) are removed from the intensity of the lighting (remember that the intensity of the light varies as an inverse square relationship with the distance). So anything supplying that intensity of light at that distance would also be at risk of cooking the entire enclosure. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

kimcmich said:


> Many bromeliads can, indeed, grow in full sun-- but that does not mean they are immune to sunburn. Even glaucous cacti evolved to grow at high altitude near the equator can be burned when transplanted because the orientation to the light of some of their tissue changes.
> 
> Sunburn/bleaching is an under-appreciated aspect of growing plants in all situations - and it is especially something to keep track of when you are moving plants from one light regime to another (such as when you add new plants to your collection).


Kim: No one here disagrees with either of these concepts. And it is a good thing that you point these out. But, I never said bromeliads can't sunburn, I said that some genera can't and won't burn here (in the northeast). 

Those who grow tropicals and sub-tropicals outdoors here quickly learn that the plants must acclimate. Some so-called moderate light growers, like guzmanias, vrieseas, philodendrons, etc. can in fact adapt to an east or south-west orientation, if they are started early. Set them out in in June, they burn; start them late April/early May, they adapt. We know it as "growing hard." Of course, this won't work in southern Cali or Nevada or Arizona--I never heard of anyone growing a guzmania or African violet or syngonium outside... 

Now, moving to tank culture, Ed is quite correct. It is inconceivable that a neo would burn several inches below the light source. As Ed points out, intensity decreases as an inverse square of the distance (e.g., 2X the distance, 1/4 the intensity). Anything intense enough to bleach the neos would bleach everyone else. If anything, more growers have a problem with planting their plants too low, and they can't hold good color or conformation. 

We have learned in recent years that plants in tanks can adapt to far greater light intensity than we thought. With the introduction of cfls, t-5s, leds, we can grow and bloom a wide array of stuff. And believe me, we learn quickly that plants grown too close can and will burn--this can be a vriesea inflorescence, or a vanilla vine, or a melastome, or a peperomia. 

I stand by my original admonition, that growers in the northeast should be careful when ordering plants in the winter. Even heatpacks can't counteract some of our occasional deep freezes.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Groundhog,

Lokira started the thread noting her plants had been frosted/nearly frozen and the first commenter related a similar experience. I thought the plants _also_ looked bleached by the light in their new position. It is my experience, as a person who gives talks to horticultural societies, that many people, even avid gardeners, don't appreciate the sensitivity plants can have to changes in lighting. I stated as much.

You responded with "There is no way a fireball will sunburn in a tank, ( unless it's right under something like a metal halide)." As I person who has seen a Fireball brom bleach under non-incandescent lighting, I knew this was an incorrect statement. I emphasized this in my response.

Our subsequent exchanges inadvertently focused on outdoor growing - but at least this gave you the chance to tell me I should "not presume ignorance" followed immediately (and ironically) by you explaining to me the experience of gardening outside California when I gardened and viv'd in Indiana (zone 5B) before I moved to California.

BTW, Berkeley is at the same latitude as Columbus, OH - light intensity on a clear day in New York is not dramatically weaker than here in Berkeley (though I get more of those sunny days). I think if you transplanted that Dyckia and rotated it, say 90 degrees, in a new full-sun location you would see some sunburn.

@Ed - I agree with everything you said (aside from your charming indictment of my motivation in participating in this discussion - thanks for tossing in the jab before you got to your substantive points).


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

kimcmich said:


> @Groundhog,
> 
> ... many people, even avid gardeners, don't appreciate the sensitivity plants can have to changes in lighting. I stated as much.
> 
> ...


Kim: Please understand that no one here is looking to jab anyone; but many of here are experienced and/or recognized experts. We are sticklers for correct diagnoses and accuracy. We are not plant pedants. 

Now, you think the dyckia would burn? I don't think so, not here. A vriesea maybe, but not a dyckia or aechmea grown hard. (Maybe if I took a greenhouse plant and set it in full sun in July, but as I mentioned, we know not to do that.) 

But you write that you have seen Neo 'Fireball' burn in a tank environment. This is an amazing statement. How far? What lights? What temp/humidity? Again, I have seen this in a plant set 2" below the lights, but never 10", which was Lokira's claim. 

As I mentioned before, Neo 'Fireball" is notorious for its inability to maintain color in tanks; same goes for some of its hybrids like Zoe. if anything, the issue is how to get it more light! There are several better alternatives (in terms of light-responsiveness), many that hold water for tadpoles. (FYI, I myself don't keep darts, mine are hylids, a hylarana, marsupial frogs.) 

Please, if I you have seen something regarding some cfl, t-5 or LED that does damage, do share this information. 

Thanks in advance.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Groundhog,

Thanks for your response.

"We are sticklers for correct diagnoses and accuracy. We are not plant pedants."

You might come across as less of a pedant if you didn't phrase so many of responses in the royal 'we' - just sayin' 

My Fireball was bleached beneath a custom LED fixture - 3w cool and warm white leds. Now, this wasn't a case of complete or major bleaching - only the oldest leaves were burned where, I think, water may have focused the light in patches. As you note, Fireball tends to be pretty light-loving - and the rest of the plant did fine and newer leaves even colored up a bit - though it never 'caught fire' as I'd hoped it might. It was right below the fixture (2-3") where I was trying for the most color.

I agree that Lokira's plants were unlikely to burn 10-11" from the fixture. But my initial suggestion of light burn was made before she said how far from the fixture these plants were. Your response was "There is no way a fireball will sunburn in a tank" and our debate started there.

As for examples of non-incandescent lights burning plants, you now have my anecdote above but you can also check the thread I linked-to in my previous response to Lokira: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/303258-plants-dying-help-define-problem.html#post2814834 (Though this poster mentions Vrieseas rather than Neos)


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Good job working things out, folks. There is plenty of room for smart people on this board. Frog and plant discussion is not a zero sum game  I am learning a ton from everybody in this thread.

On a different topic, I can't believe we are over 300 views in this thread without a single person bringing up "erect dyckia." Come on, people, they don't get pitched any slower or over the the center of the plate than that! (Seriously, though, you are all a credit to your species (and I, obviously, am not)).

Mark


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## baskis (Jun 7, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> On a different topic, I can't believe we are over 300 views in this thread without a single person bringing up "erect dyckia." Come on, people, they don't get pitched any slower or over the the center of the plate than that! (Seriously, though, you are all a credit to your species (and I, obviously, am not)).
> 
> Mark


My reputation on this forum is not nearly established enough to risk being known as the "penis joke" guy but someone definitely had to say something. So for that I thank you Mark


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

baskis said:


> My reputation on this forum is not nearly established enough to risk being known as the "penis joke" guy but someone definitely had to say something. So for that I thank you Mark


Sometimes you gotta take one for the team.


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Bad news, i came in this morning to give a light misting and one brom literally fell apart as soon as i got close to the tank. I'm bummed but luckily they weren't expensive and I'll be making sure i don't order on the coldest days -.-


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Here's the survivor, it looks worse than the other one, but it still feels firm, so i think it'll pull through.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

That brom is looking pretty rough. Be sure to watch the spots where the intact, green tissue meets the frost-damaged areas. You don't want the rot to spread from the edges of the frosted areas down the leaves toward the heart of the plant. Given how much of the plant is damaged, this one is going to be very slow to recover and rot is a definite danger (as you've already learned). Good luck.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

kimcmich said:


> Groundhog,
> 
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> ...



O-kaay... Hog is back. I have a comment/question here: You say you have notice recently transplanted bromeliads lose the _outer_ ring of leaves? Hmnn... In my experience, I deduced that was a stress reaction to water loss (not dissimilar to a ficus or citrus tree losing leaves). I have especially notice it when attempting to mount bromeliads that had been grown potted (e.g., Home Depot plants for $4.99).

Conversely, I have rarely if ever noticed this on unrooted pups. Now this may seem counter-intuitive, but let me explain. A plant grown in a pot has no need to develop a tight funnel, hard leaves or an extensive network of trichomes, as these plants are watered in their pots. To shake the soil off and mount it essentially shocks the plant. (To make clear, this is not what happened to Lokira's plants. But when I have seen light damage, it manifests as "bleach" spots near the central cup.) 

By contrast, most of us find it is rather easy to mount bromeliad pups with wire or by inserting a stolon. They are among the easiest epiphytes for us to grow. It works with neos, or any aechmea, vriesea, tiillandsia with a nice stolon. Why? These plants need to develop tight cups, and any roots they grow are for attachment, not absorption. They are almost pre-adapted for mounting. As for the potted plants, many notice that while these plants might languish, their pups go on to grow into nice, strong plants!

So my question becomes: For those who have had trouble mounting plants, has there been a difference between potted plants and pups?


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Both broms rotted, unfortunately. I think they just died from being frozen and were just decaying since arrival. I'll be ordering during better weather next time.


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

Lokirathehunter said:


> Both broms rotted, unfortunately. I think they just died from being frozen and were just decaying since arrival. I'll be ordering during better weather next time.



Are they completely dead? I would try to keep them anyways if not. I have broms that have rotted and I cut all the leafs off of and they are still growing pups! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## baskis (Jun 7, 2015)

Damon Ryan said:


> Are they completely dead? I would try to keep them anyways if not. I have broms that have rotted and I cut all the leafs off of and they are still growing pups!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same thing here. But the thing is I can't cut the leaves off because its my frogs favorite brom to use!


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

No they literally melted like totally fell apart in the viv


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## chulainnledsom (Mar 28, 2017)

If the fell apart, have you checked for root rot? May be caused as they are epiphyte


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