# HydroBalls� Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?



## RicktheRarefrogbreeder (May 31, 2009)

*HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

So zoo Med came up with a new product (HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate) compared to the a similar product found in Blackjungle I think Zoo Med may be up to something. BlackJungle promisses there clay pellets are simply the best because they come from Europe and are used by the best Dutch dart keepers and herpetologist alike. But I guess I'm going to have to give It a go for myself! Below is a little info on this product! 

HydroBalls™ Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate can be used as a base layer underneath Zoo Med’s Eco Earth® coconut fiber substrate or other substrates to create an underground water table in Naturalistic Terrariums. Add water to create a natural “aquifer” and increase humidity levels for all tropical species. Excellent substrate for live plant root growth in Naturalistic Terrariums. Use for filtration for a waterfall.


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## Rick (Apr 10, 2009)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Yeah ive used em, much smaller than hydroton.


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## dartboi101 (May 14, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Yeahh I use them too! I love using them for my ZooMeds because they look a little more naturalistic than hydroton. I love them... but they are on the pricey side! =[


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## Geckoguy (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Thats what I use... only complaint is that they sneak their way out if you have a water feature and float on the surface. Perhaps I should have secured the screen better My new set up I made sure to keep them secured and have had no lose ones. I think I used 3 bags for a 20 H.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Has anyone tried anything but stone?

I have always used Hydroton but in the end it still weighs too much for my liking. I have wondered for a long time about the "filter balls" or whatever they are for biological filters in marine aquariums.

I have ordered the "substrate" made from EpiWeb cut into chunks and am going to give that a try. EpiWeb is pretty rigid and very light weight. I guess I will post when I see how it goes. 

Any other novel ideas anyone has tried?


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## RicktheRarefrogbreeder (May 31, 2009)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I use filter balls "bio balls" they do well too!


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Yah thats what I meant!

What do they run cost wise? Have to be cheaper than what the EpiWeb costs with the customs tariffs and shipping.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

These look almost identical to Hydroton, LECA etc., not exactly a new product, just different packaging and a higher price tag. I think that what BJ carries is Aliflor, which has a slightly different shape, and more variation in particle size.


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## LorenK (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Am I missing something...or is it the same as these?

That's what I have in my zoomed. I got it as part of a trade so not sure what it costs. It is very light.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Bioballs can be pretty pricey. We sell gallon bags at our store for about $18. Used bioballs are available at times really cheap, but much of the fish hobby is actually gravitating away from them. I used bioballs in my first few vivs with great success, but switched to hydroton for price reasons....and I can buy bio balls at cost if that tells you anything.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



UmbraSprite said:


> Any other novel ideas anyone has tried?


I bought a set-up tank off someone else here on DB. The drainage layer is styrofoam packing peanuts. Not the prettiest thing from the side, but very light-weight and you could cover them from the side the same as people do when they don't want to see a false bottom.

The best thing about them, you can find them free at almost any office for the asking.

Deb


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## RicktheRarefrogbreeder (May 31, 2009)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Where did you purchase those balls at?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



salix said:


> I bought a set-up tank off someone else here on DB. The drainage layer is styrofoam packing peanuts. Not the prettiest thing from the side, but very light-weight and you could cover them from the side the same as people do when they don't want to see a false bottom.
> 
> The best thing about them, you can find them free at almost any office for the asking.
> 
> Deb


If you go this route, make sure they are the NON-biodegradable peanuts, or you will end up with a layer of styro-goo under your substrate.


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## dartboi101 (May 14, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



LorenK said:


> Am I missing something...or is it the same as these?
> 
> That's what I have in my zoomed. I got it as part of a trade so not sure what it costs. It is very light.


yes. those are them. and at my local pet store they cost around ten dollars a bag! =[[


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## troy255 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I saw both of those products at petco. The hydro balls were $7.99 and I believe the cocosoft was $9.99.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Well I do not like them, tooo small, like BB's plus more expensive - small need more.

-Beth


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



Dane said:


> If you go this route, make sure they are the NON-biodegradable peanuts, or you will end up with a layer of styro-goo under your substrate.


I figured that was self-evident, since the non-foam type would just melt.

But, I guess it's better to point it out...


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



RicktheRarefrogbreeder said:


> I use filter balls "bio balls" they do well too!


I always wondered about this! It'd have to be a really sweet deal on them though because I agree that they're rather pricey compared to LECA.


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## Rambo67 (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I used those Hydroballs in my most recent exo. Look great but they are on the smaller side and do have a bit of price on them. As stated earlier, BIO Balls are surprisingly expensive for being what they are...and I too could get them for cost!


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Sorry to hijack this thread, but does anyone know where I can get LECA balls? There aren't any hydroponics stores around where I live.


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## dflorian (May 15, 2009)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



troy255 said:


> I saw both of those products at petco. The hydro balls were $7.99 and I believe the cocosoft was $9.99.


I scored the last two 2 bags of hydroballs from my local Petco today for $2.50 each. Local for me is Mount Pleasant, SC ...so your local store may still have some in stock.


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## tmos540 (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I am building my first terrarium, and wondering if making an egg crate and screen below expanded clay would be over-kill. I have a kind of terraced layout, and I know I will need to use a false bottom to avoid using too much substrate, but for the bottom, would it be all right? I plan on running a heat cable through the substrate as well. Any hints?


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

It's not necessary to use a false bottom and hydroton. 
That's sort of redundant. I don't have experience with hydroton, but I like the false bottom method I employed. 

I don;t think it is a good idea to run a "heat cable" through the substrate at all. Why do you feel this is needed?

Cheers,
C


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



rollei said:


> Sorry to hijack this thread, but does anyone know where I can get LECA balls? There aren't any hydroponics stores around where I live.


Several sponsors sell them(Hydroton), one cheeper than I've found on Amazon and ships free with $50 purchase. I don't think I can name them without violating the TOS, but PM me and I'll tell you who I got it from. I bought 2 big bags at Xmas with a coupon as well. That much has lasted through 6 verts and should be enough to do the 3 Zoo Meds I am planing out.

I did use the hydroballs, got them with a discount at Petsmart. Its basically the same thing as LECA, but smaller and more expensive. I was building 2 small Zoo Meds at the time and needed something right then or I would have just waited and got LECA for the price.

My first viv back in the early 90s, was avtually made with the styro packing peanuts. Plants were left in pots and then sphagnum laid over the top, and then moss. I didn't know about leaf litter back then and used pillow moss chunks. Honestly, I've never had moss grow that well since then. I literally had to peel it off the walls about every 2 weeks. I know now it is not the prefered way to go but I'd love to get that look again. The frogs did fine with it BTW.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



tmos540 said:


> I am building my first terrarium, and wondering if making an egg crate and screen below expanded clay would be over-kill. I have a kind of terraced layout, and I know I will need to use a false bottom to avoid using too much substrate, but for the bottom, would it be all right? I plan on running a heat cable through the substrate as well. Any hints?


Thats exactly how I do all my vivs, 1/2 pvc supporting eggcrate, about 1inch of LECA, then ABG substrate. I've found that this keeps my substrate from getting soggy. As previously mentioned, not nessesary, but it is working well for me.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

They look like the small size (4-8mm) hydroton to me. It's harder to find but you can get the small hydroton for something like $34 for a huge sack.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Crazy idea, but for weight and area reasons what about ping pong balls?


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



ChrisK said:


> Crazy idea, but for weight and area reasons what about ping pong balls?


They float too much and can be expensive


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

If weight is a serious issue, a false bottom is the answer. Why even bother trying to find other products when that solution works perfectly well?


Personally I have never used these, but I've been using Hydroton for various gardening needs for a long while now. I do still put a 1-ball layer of hydroton on top of my false bottoms; I agree it is redundant tho....maybe I will stop lol...


Maybe I'm spoiled cause I live in southern california, but there are probably 15 hydroponics stores within a 10 mile radius of my house. I get a LOT of my supplies from hydroponic stores (coco mat, plastic slit pots, hydroton, mylar, etc) I actually don't know of anywhere else to buy much of that stuff...I'd go crazy having to pay for shipping on it :x


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

The strength of the hydroball vs false bottom would be the surface area for beneficial bacteria and the slower release of water into the terrarium from evaporation. I am using them in the viv I am making now.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I prefer Hydroton over false bottoms. Just drive to your local hydroponics store and pick up a medium sized bag for around 20 bucks or a monster size for around 49.99, plus you wont have to worry about shipping costs. I've bought the Zoomed hydroballs and they are actually smaller then Hydroton and way more expensive at my local stores. Just my 2 cents, but Like Brian WI said, LECA/hydroton helps with the bacteria.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I can agree with the bacteria...I don't know just how much of a difference that results in though.



Also, always pay cash when going to a hydroponics store and negotiate the price...its funny how that just isn't typically done in american culture...but its standard pipe shop / hydroponic shop culture 

I usually get the 50L (big) bag of hydroton for around 28-30


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Think of it like excelsior in a ff culture. It provides surface area for the bacteria to live on. They aren't solid balls to the water and bacteria, they are porous and have lots of area. Many bacteria don't do nearly as well floating around as thy do on a surface.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I don't believe there's any benefit to promoting bacteria in hydroton vs a false bottom. If you want to concentrate on anything concentrate on a diverse microfauna population in your substrate layer. Hydroton will make tour substrate more saturated than a well designed false bottom. Capillary action will wick water up into your substrate. Hydroton is designed to wick water up! Hydroton is still going to be heavier and I think round orange clay balls look very unnatural. But it's all about personal preference I guess.


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## alivetheycried (Feb 22, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

i use the hydroballs in my BB toad tank, i like it its a good buy but just cost sucks...does it job just put a good blocker to separate the HB from the water


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

frogparty,

Think of them as filter media. More surface area, more room for activity. Same reason they use the balls in fish filters. It ABSOLUTELY helps the biological action, there is no question.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

BrianWI is correct. It's those bacteria that break down waste into a nitrate which your plants can readily use as fertilizer.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



Matala Pond Filter Mats  

*Latest generation of filter media that is rapidly gaining interest in the market.*
*Reasons are as follows:
• Made of Thermo-Polypropylene Compounds (TPPC )
• Formed into layers and shapes of thickness
• Very resistant to plugging • Excellent adhesion bacteria
• Lightweight, Very durable • Easy to cut and fit.
*
*
(MF) Filter Media Sheets Full Sheets: 48” x 39.5” x 1.5”
(MH) Half Sheets: 24” x 39.5” x 1.5”
*
*Black-BK (Low Density)*



http://www.utahkoi.com/html/matala.htm


I have used a similar product to this, from a different source in the past.


It worked great as a drainage layer. Very light, easy to cut. 



2 layers is 3" thick


I covered it with sphagnum then substrate, but you can use screen then substrate.

Some similar products. 

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/295903883/Filter_Mat.html
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=plas...art=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:0&tx=77&ty=74

http://www.thefind.com/pets/info-aquascape-matala-filter-mat


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Black Matala Media - Matala

Cheapest place to locate it so far....

22$ for 1/2 sheet [24 x 39"]

http://usakoi.com/filter-media/matala-half-sheets.html

20$ special


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I used some synthetic replacement for the peat moss mats used in planters to separate. Works well and won't degrade. I think its slick.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> BrianWI is correct. It's those bacteria that break down waste into a nitrate which your plants can readily use as fertilizer.


You obviously are trying to apply aquarium logic to terrestrial ecosystems. There's plenty of land based bacteria to do the job, and the way I keep my tanks, there's a minimum of water in m false bottom. Making Hydroton and the supposed bacterial benefits nil. I'd rather have no water standing in anything but broms and film cans. If you think terrestrial plants need aquatic bacteria to convert their nitrogen source you're kidding yourself.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Has anyone used the product Black Jungle sells that is "expanded glass"--very lightweight..obnoxious color but can be disguised, and looks like a sort of lava rock...it does what a porous biological product should do to promote good bacterial activity...interesting product...


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

^ Judy, you referring to 'Featherlite' yes?

I have it in 30 + vivs. I agree the color is terrible, but Rich and Mike have been working on a Black version for some time.

I use it, it is truly almost weightless. Nothing like Lava Rock, although they look similar.

I 'disguise' it in the front inch with other substrate options, but it makes a great drainage layer.

I must have 15 bags of it, on stock....for upcoming vivs


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



frogparty said:


> You obviously are trying to apply aquarium logic to terrestrial ecosystems. There's plenty of land based bacteria to do the job, and the way I keep my tanks, there's a minimum of water in m false bottom. Making Hydroton and the supposed bacterial benefits nil. I'd rather have no water standing in anything but broms and film cans. If you think terrestrial plants need aquatic bacteria to convert their nitrogen source you're kidding yourself.


What I'm saying is my plant roots often reach down into the layer of LECA/Hydroton and can take advantage of those additional nutrients. I'm not saying the NEED aquatic bacteria to convert their nitrogen. It IS an additional benefit that LECA/Hydroton provides that a false bottom does not. 

Do you drill your tanks and have a drain so that there is not much water in your false bottom? Just curious for knowledge sake. I think the sharing of tips and tricks and information is one of the things that keep this community close.

Judy and Shawn, thanks for the tip. I'm gonna check out the featherlite.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

My older tanks have not been drilled, but the new ones have. 
I see what you're saying about the roots reaching in, but don't bio balls work better in a nom stagnant environment?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Yes frogparty you are correct, and the more oxygen the bacteria are exposed to the more efficiently they work. That's where I think a false bottom benefits a good substrate. Because the substrate is exposed to oxygen on the top and bottom, if your water level is low enough. However when it comes to macrofauna population, my LECA vivs far out produce the false bottom vivs. Just my own personal experience. I wish there were some technique to have the benefits of both. Maybe a layer of LECA on top of a false bottom? IDK?


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

bio balls work better in moving water because they were designed to.

If you have a "water layer" in your viv, it is an aquatic environment. The health of your aquatic environment can have an effect on your terrestrial one. Stinky nasty water under the substrate is not good. While having a false botttom will work, those little clay balls will be better for several reasons. Again, surface area is a big one, stability is another.

Don't confuse that with some filtering advantage though. Unless the water is moving, there is no mechanical filtration action.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I suspect the glass product would have many of the benefits of LECA with the advantage of lower weight.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I try to keep as little water in my false bottims as humanly possible. I do NOT like stagnant water of any type. I did a project for my Microbio class a few years ago and cultured up bacteria from the water in one of my tanks from the little pond and there wass serious bioload in that water. I did a dilution of 10 to the -7 and still got well over 100 colonies from 1ml of tank water. Included were lots of Bacillus, including several species that form endospores, which are damn near impossible to kill. They resist bleaching, boiling, dessicating etc. To me, the presence of water in the hydroton just ups the chance Im going to get moisture lovers like these or Mycobacterial types, and Id rather just not risk it. 

I also feel, like previously stated, that Id rather have my roots exposed to moist air in my falso bottom than sitting in stagnant water/hydroton.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Sometime simplicity is easier than balance, no doubt. In the end, the hydroton will be a better environment, but maybe not enough so to be worth the trouble for you.

I do wonder what "water issues" have been observed for both.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

What water issues? My plant roots will NEVER be too soggy, I wont have a stagnant anaerobic soil issue from too much water wicking up from the hydroton, and my tanks are lighter than they would be with a hydroton layer


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

PDF tanks have been, and will continue to be built BOTH ways successfully. I have built them both ways successfully. I live in Colorado and we have very dry winters. In the end, I find that moisture sealed in the viv is moisture sealed in the viv. My LECA vivs are NOT more humid than a good false bottom.
The very argument about the "improved bacterial action" you get with LECA is an argument in favor of false bottoms. This "improved bacterial action" is direct competition with a healthy microfauna population.
You want to use LECA? Go ahead and use it. You want to use a false bottom? Go for it. They are BOTH viable methods.
But it is ridiculous to try to present, as FACT, that LECA is a better system when you have never worked with false bottoms in dart frog vivs. To try to present information from aquariums, as a direct crossover to dart frog vivs is simply flawed and you simply cannot back it up.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

My viv is not sealed. It has air flow necessary for some of the plants.

Where you are wrong is when you say bacterial action is competing with the microfauna. That is probably why you are coming to your erroneous conclusion.

But, if you choose to believe that surface area and trapped oxygen in the LECA is irrelevant to bacterial colonies, be my guest. You have every right to be wrong.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

terrestrial bacteria and fungi are just as good at converting N sources.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Another thing to keep in mind is that FISH in aquatic ecosystems produce ammonia, which is highly toxic and water soluble, while AMPHIBIANS produce urea, which is about 100,000 times less toxic and subject to different pathways of biological breakdown. Since this is the primary source of the Nitrogen being converted by the bacteria its worth noting

Some reading http://ex-anatomy.org/nitro.html


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

They are fantastic for their REAL intended purpose, which is soilless plant culture. But even in that application, roots do better not totally submerged in stagnant water, but rather in an ebb/flow system where oxygen is more readily available, even deep water culture with hydroton requires an air pump in the liquid for optimal results


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

ahh the fun begins.

If you cant find your posts....its because the Mod Staff removed them and you can look for an infraction in your mailbox


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Hmmmmm...so now all of us who care about the best care of our trapped animals who rely on our care are on the sidelines watching, nervously, on this testosterone fired discussion about something the rest of us know NOTHING about and rely on this board for a balanced, reasoned discussion for a mutually agreed upon presentation of facts...facts..


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I assume that is directed at me, so I will say Judy IMHO there are no facts here, at all....just opinions.

And since false bottoms have been around longer then my own...bottom...I'd just think it wise to continue to do so.

What you use, from ping pong balls, to LECA, to gravel, to Bioballs, to cat litter is up to you.

The environment is almost completely anaerobic 3-4 inchs below the substrate, so IMO it doesnt matter. False bottoms serve to drain stale water away from plants...and I doubt they do anything more then that. 

And yes, I've built a couple more then a few vivs Doug  ...


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

No...it was not directed at you! However, what I was trying to say is that people like me get confused so easily because we do not have the experience you guys have....and really want to do the very best for our captives... Experiences that are acquired and practiced by the "old hands" at this wonderful hobby have that: experience. I cannot evaluate whether I prefer one method over the other because I don't know how either/any method works out over time... but by reading posts by the various members, one gets a sense about quality of information...what your thread 'bout Cred...suggests...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Hey Judy, not that I'm thrilled by it, but I understand why Shawn pulled my post. I'm pretty sure it was not about calling someone on their "cred" but rather, because I took it too far and called him a name. That is against the rules laid out in the user agreement.

So, to be clear, my opinion on the subject is that both LECA and false bottoms can work equally well. My personal preference is a false bottom. LECA is specifically designed to wick water upwards. That is it's original use. My opinion is that a LECA bottom may make for a slightly moister substrate and since I mist often, taking every advantage of drainage is important to me.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

So would substituting the lightweight "lava rock" expanded glass product be a worthwhile substitute for Leca? and would you suggest seperating that material from the actual substrate "soil" with fiberglass screening ?? Would you be getting the best of both worlds or am I truly missing a more important issue which has been pointed out...the possibility of stagnant water being the real difference of opinion and experience...is that where the "problem" is being debated?? Hopefully you understand my trying to pinpoint the exact difference...thanks for you patience


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

The FEATHERLITE that BlackJungle sells is a nice product, I have used it on a few tanks(most recently on some tree frog remodeled ones)....they have the coarse and fine grade to choose from which is pretty self explanatory....

I think if you are to have a water feature in your tank, a false bottom is the way to go for sure.

But both techniques certainly sport advantages, and I'm sure there is no right or wrong style here. It's completely up to the user's preference.

For either, I'd definitely separate the false bottom/and-or-leca-layer with a mesh from the substrate so as to prevent it from seeping down below...(we want to keep our 'mud slides' in our desserts!)

And Doug, I told Shawn to pull your post...on account of you teasing me with your TWENTY FOUR TADS of RANITOMEYA VANZOLINI!!! Victory is mine(until you get to twenty five, hehe)


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*



Judy S said:


> So would substituting the lightweight "lava rock" expanded glass product be a worthwhile substitute for Leca? and would you suggest seperating that material from the actual substrate "soil" with fiberglass screening ?? Would you be getting the best of both worlds or am I truly missing a more important issue which has been pointed out...the possibility of stagnant water being the real difference of opinion and experience...is that where the "problem" is being debated?? Hopefully you understand my trying to pinpoint the exact difference...thanks for you patience


I prefer not to run ponds in my vivs. I'm of the belief that my frogs would rather have more leaf litter or another piece of ghost wood to climb, than a water feature. Stagnant water is a completely moot point for my builds. It never touches the frogs, it doesn't stink, and it simply goes into the waste bucket. Therefor, while I have nothing really against LECA, false bottoms will remain my favorite method. The discussion about expanded glass or LECA is for others to test and discuss.
By the way, concerning yesterday, I did warn you all in the "no name, no cred" thread that I occasionally stick my foot in my mouth!


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

A small water area can be a nice deposition spot for tads for those that are not thumbnails or pums, as well...removing the need to pull eggs all together and having to just wait for the tads to hatch out in the water area....and/or you can have them morph out in the tank as well, tads often times able to feed on what has accumulated within the pool, be it plant matter, dead flies, algae etc...

It's all about balance, as long as you have enough space for the terrestrial or arboreal animal, anything is possible with clear and concise planning!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

^ luv the Vizsla's btw 

My experience is that many frogs do quite well with 'flooded' tanks. Highland tricolor, panguana lamasi and many anthonyi come to mind. Like rainy season in the Amazon flooded....really.

Now the plants. Not so much. 

Unless U love semiaquatics....lol.

I have tried it with ponds, with false bottoms, with pumps and waterfalls, with LECA, with Featherlite, with Schultz Aquatic Soil, Cat litter...etc.

Depends on the frogs.

It is quite fun to see tads reared in front ponds over months....TBH. 

BUT, if this matters at all, I am converting the FR over now to custom vivs and I am using.....[drum roll]

Featherlite, about 3" of it. 
Bulk head drains.
Misting system with 2 sprayers per tank.
A front 'dressing' of Cat litter clay in the visible glass front of the tanks to hide the featherlite, just for 'looks'.
A well draining ABG mix type media
2" of Oak and Magnolia leaf litter
Living wall backgrounds

So....guess after experimenting with 140 vivs, what I am trying to say is I 'decided' on the above as the best option <FOR ME>

Hope that helps.

And thanks all for playing nicely, and not stressing me out with PM's  about moderating this useful thread.

Best,


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

One last question...what is the difference, other than the obvious one of name, between hydroballs, and Leca...the hydroballs are also hydroton..right?? Having Leca wick UP is interesting...they probably don't contribute very much to beneficial bacteria growth either... Shawn...if you use your new formula--three inches of expanded glass, then ABG, etc.--how deep with the actual "soil" mix be for any terrestrial plants...and what size viv? That is a part of the total "look" that is impacted by the depth of grow area...up to the top part of the exos... Thanks everyone...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

No difference. Just brand names


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

Hah! I forgot that you had(or have) VIZSLAS Shawn!!! I spoke to you about them a year or two ago.....my absolute adoration of canine animals!

That's the plan for me in the future(if I can ever GET to that point): frogs + dogs 

=========================================
And now back on topic:

I would think 2-3 inches(sometimes more) of the soil mix is a healthy starting point. It can vary. Sometimes, for instance, the 'ground' may be uneven due to landsccaping and plants -- in my P. klemmeri tank, which I just redid last week...I had to plant a healthy sized Zamioculcas zamiifolia, there were some POTTED ROOTS on that bad boy, so I had to build up the ABG mix up around to cover the most of 'em.......sloping back down to everywhere else, including Pothos and cocohuts, and bamboo sticks!


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I used hydroballs in another non-DF terrerium. I didn't like the water feature having the hydroballs in it but a plastic strawberry basket kept that are free of them quite well. I used some syntheic cocfiber plant basket liner stuff to seprate the layers of substrate on this terrarium and I bet it would also work good as a water feature liner. in any type of set up.

A good fall back position on LECA and such would be that no one said it really had much downside. So using it would seem to be erroring on the side of caution.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

At least some coco fiber basket liners are bonded together with a glue. You might want to look into whether or not that glue is completely non-toxic.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

*Re: HydroBalls™ Lightweight Expanded Clay Terrarium Substrate?*

I looked into it and they are completely non-toxic.

I also looked into the coco bricks used for plants sold at Menards and such. Also contain nothing harmful and are about 40% less than at pet shops.

Working good so far. Fat happy frogs in there!

Things are going a bit too smooth. Cultures I got from Edhurl are already producing flies, along with another I bought at Hoffer's (I got two other older ones discounted from Petco that I fed out before my trip that I think are done). The first two I made here have a few maggots. White springtails are doing well. Have some tiny grey springtails, probably less than half the size of the whites. Those are absolutely EXPLODING! And, last but not least, the while isopods are doing ok as far as I can tell.


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