# 37Gallon Show Viv



## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

I have a few more vines, jungle pods and dendro pods from BJ. I also have a few more pieces of driftwood to add to the bottom that will have broms sticking out of them. This tank has taken me a VERY long time to plan, construct and get everything in the right places. I have some extremely nice broms, orchids and begonias that I had purchased at IAD. I also have a very small carniverous plant to add along with some gorgeous pillow moss. this viv should be absolutely stunning after I get java growing on all the wood along with riccia. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated and I will post many more pics after I plant it. Then more when it grows in in a few months. I am going to put blue escudo in this tank, I wish I knew when the white banded fantasticus that I am waitlisted on will be imported bc I would LOVE to put those in here!! Who knows maybe I will just let it grow in and put them in whenever I can get my hands on them!!


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## bpetty13 (Mar 17, 2007)

not sure if there are supposed to be pics or not but if there is i dont see any.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Sry, I was trying to preview the message so far and submitted before the pics were posted. There they are!!


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## bpetty13 (Mar 17, 2007)

yep their up now


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

It is upside down in the pic, it doesnt look very good in the pictures. It looks so awesome in person though!! I will have to get some better pictures of it tomorrow! I ran out of coco fiber also, so I couldnt finish it tonight. I am kind of wishing that I put a smaller water feature into the viv also. This probably is the best looking viv I have built to date. I hope everyone likes it. Mike


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## roberthvalera (Jun 9, 2006)

7 escudos in a 37?! Good luck...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Perhaps you aren't aware about the multiple pumilio rule... and in such a small space. I really think you should research the topic some more and reevaluate that idea.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

roberthvalera said:


> 7 escudos in a 37?! Good luck...


I agree with this comment.

PDFanatic, are you SURE you want to put that many Escudo in a viv this small? A pair or maybe a 2.1 would be plenty in my opinion. You have to remember that these frogs are territorial. The males like thier space and the females will eat each others eggs. I'd hate to see you blow all that money on a mistake like that.

On the other hand, your viv looks to be coming a long real nice. What you can do to make the pics look better is take them with a fluorescent light on the viv and no flash from the camera. That will show the driftwood off better.

Good luck.


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

Just because you have the money to dish out on 7 escudos, doesn't mean that you should. 

If you think that 7 pumilio will be fine in a 37 gallon, then you definitely are not ready to get those frogs. Even though it does not apply to pumilio, who need a lot more space, what about the 10 gallons per frog rule? You aren't even meeting that in the first place, putting aside the fact that pumilio really should be given a lot more room then 10 gallons each.

I wouldn't put 7 escudos together in a 200 gallon tank, let alone a 37. For the sake of the frogs, do some research. You should put the frogs well being well before your desire of having a flashy 'show' vivarium and frogs.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks for the advice, Mike


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

PDFanatic said:


> Thanks for the advice but I have more than enough experience with the stuff to know what I am doing, this thread is about the tank and not the inhabitants. I was simply answering peoples questions about the inhabitants before they were asked and that was the only reason the frog type was posted. If you have some comments about the tank go ahead but everything else will be disreguarded. *I appreciate your advice and this is by no means meant to be "flashy" or for anyones enjoyment except my own.* BTW I think your 10 gallon per frog rule which could apply to larger frogs other than thumbnails but it seems that everyone has a different opinion on that subject. I.e some people say 5 gallons per frog others say 10. *The inhabitants that are going into it are froglets in which I have seen absolutely no aggression whatsoever yet. * I will pay very close attention to my frogs and if they start to show excessive aggression I will pull the instigators. Thanks for the advice though. Mike


Ya know, I should probably keep my mouth shut but I just can't stand idly by...

In the bold is a statement which truly rubs me the wrong way. You are putting your pleasures before the frogs safety here in this situation. I would love to see you take our advice and not put so many in this small viv. It would benefit the frogs well being much better in the long run.

In italics is key to this problem. These are still froglets. The issues will not start until maturity is reached. At that point if these frogs are in this viv, you will play HELL getting them out and will probably need to tear down the viv. Why waste all that time?

Take our advice. Many of us have been in this hobby for longer than 5 minutes.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

If you would like Mike I can split the none related stuff into a post.... I think the thread title will be "10lbs of shit in a 5lb box"

Obviously you have NO idea about the needs of the frogs your throwing $ at...... becuase any one with even a little experiance who has read the good info available on the net and in books knows damn well you cant cram that many pumilio into a tiny tank like that! 

My advice both for the frogs and your wallet is to not buy 7 frogs but to buy a pair or a trio and have happy frogs, I guess with the left over $ you could buy your self some common sense.....


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## nitsuj (Jan 21, 2007)

I think you should get a pair, males fight for calling areas and females tipically eat each others eggs, but asuming that your tank will be very heavily planted with lots of calling territories a 2.1 should be perfect. And the tank is coming along nicely, keep us updated. And please do not stick 7 escudos in there, just because you took the frog per 5 gal. rule and multiplied 5 and 7 and found 35 and thought that "this is great! I will have 2 gal. left over!" Not only will you be $2500 out, but you will have many dead frogs! Plus with that many frogs, you will nott have any breeding activity. Everybody including me is disipointed and bugging you for doing this not because we have nothing better to do, but you are surely setting your self up for failor, and I for one would rather you buy a trio and donate the rest to some rainforest charity. BTW, have you done any research??? Pumilio are one of the most if not the most territorial species, it is more like 1 pum to 13 gal. rule.


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## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

Mike, the tank is looking good, I llike the layout of it and it appears to be going in the direction of a lush tropical paradise when you're finished. 


On a more serious note, I would take some of the suggestions being given. Not to mention that space being too small for that many frogs, you're putting FROGLETS in there which most likely won't be able to find their food. Please stop trying to be flashy and show how much money you have. We're not interested. Our main interest is in the frogs. Period. Do some more research before you think about putting that many pums in any tank, let alone one so small. 

Tony


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

One big thing that you are overlooking regarding pumilios is the fact they are very territorial. I know these guys are small, but what type of area do they need to set up their terroritories and be happy. Putting too many into too small a tank will stress your frogs out. You might not notice it at once, but your 7 frogs will go to 6, then 6 to 5 .... and you might not ever get any breeding. 

You might consider splitting the group of 7 you are getting into two groups and placing them in tanks close to one another.

Melis


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

> If you would like Mike I can split the none related stuff into a post.... I think the thread title will be "10lbs of shit in a 5lb box"
> 
> Obviously you have NO idea about the needs of the frogs your throwing $ at...... becuase any one with even a little experiance who has read the good info available on the net and in books knows damn well you cant cram that many pumilio into a tiny tank like that!
> 
> My advice both for the frogs and your wallet is to not buy 7 frogs but to buy a pair or a trio and have happy frogs, I guess with the left over $ you could buy your self some common sense.....


MJ I see the point you are trying to make but I think this is uncalled for.



> One big thing that you are overlooking regarding pumilios is the fact they are very territorial. I know these guys are small, but what type of area do they need to set up their terroritories and be happy. Putting too many into too small a tank will stress your frogs out. You might not notice it at once, but your 7 frogs will go to 6, then 6 to 5 .... and you might not ever get any breeding.
> 
> You might consider splitting the group of 7 you are getting into two groups and placing them in tanks close to one another.
> 
> Melis


This is the way we should all answer peoples posts. While I dont think putting 7 pumilio in any tank would work there is a way of nicely getting ones point across. Mike, if you are set on getting 7 escudos I would definately do some research first. Pumilio are not really consider thums to begin with. They require much more room than your average small frog. If it were me I would put a trio in the 37g you are making and split the other 4 into 2 groups in 20gs or 29gs.
By the way what this post was intended for, nice tank. I cant wait to see some updated pics with plants and substrate. Make sure you get some leaf litter for those little buggers, you wont regret it.
Jason


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Im not putting any escudos in there I am going to put the 4 retics in there and I am going to put 4 escudos in a 125 I believe. I do believe that the comments are uncalled for as I havent really been asking anyone on advice about what types of frogs I should throw into the viv. I am sorry about all of the mayhem, I was just throwing around an Idea and I wasnt set on it. I think all of you need to honestly chill out on the whole subject, well not everyone, but mj seriously. You are supposed to be a moderator posting things like that? I am sorry but I will have to think twice about posting absolutely anything on this obard from now on. I was just getting input from people and I do appreciate melissa's post along with everyone elses. I dont appreciate that a moderator on this forum would outlash something like that. I have the viv planted and I will post pics later. Thanks for helping me make my mind up. Mike


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Mike,

Part of participating on a forum is anyone and everyone giving their opinion regarding what you post on. There are positive aspects of this and negative. 

Just remember, everyone on here is very dedicated to their animals and are overly sensitive when they think (the correct word, should be perceive) someone is going to make a mistake. Would you rather they not say a word, and not correct an error they might see - and anyone (including you) kill their frogs? 

You have lashed out at people for less and shouldn't expect anything different from others for a while. Regardless if it is right or wrong, all of us have hit the send button when we shouldn't and said things we wish we hadn't. 

I actually think putting your 4 retics in there would be awesome. A few weeks ago, I saw someone's retics house in a 20 high and they were out and about. I was amazed. Just remember, retics tend to stay on the ground a lot - so if you put them in this tank, they might not use as much of the upper spaces of the tank as you would like. 








PDFanatic said:


> Im not putting any escudos in there I am going to put the 4 retics in there and I am going to put 4 escudos in a 125 I believe. I do believe that the comments are uncalled for as I havent really been asking anyone on advice about what types of frogs I should throw into the viv. I am sorry about all of the mayhem, I was just throwing around an Idea and I wasnt set on it. I think all of you need to honestly chill out on the whole subject, well not everyone, but mj seriously. You are supposed to be a moderator posting things like that? I am sorry but I will have to think twice about posting absolutely anything on this obard from now on. I was just getting input from people and I do appreciate melissa's post along with everyone elses. I dont appreciate that a moderator on this forum would outlash something like that. I have the viv planted and I will post pics later. Thanks for helping me make my mind up. Mike


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Well four in a 125 gal is a better idea.

From what i have seen of the tank it has high potential and i'm lookin forward to seeing it planted. 

Have you looked at any of the temperature gradients yet?

Incedentally, i keep three pumilio 1:2 in a 52 gal hex and personally feel that it deosnt have as much room for the frogs in there as i would like.

Good luck and regards,

Steve


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> Im not putting any escudos in there I am going to put the 4 retics in there and I am going to put 4 escudos in a 125 I believe.


Sounds like a better plan Mike but still potentially risky for the frogs. Pay close attention to them! It'll be great to see those vivaria planted.



> I do believe that the comments are uncalled for as I havent really been asking anyone on advice


I generally agree Mike. People should do a better job of informing you without launching attacks.

However, you should listen carefully to the advice offered here. Your initial statement implied such a fundamental failure to master basic concepts related to pumilio husbandry that it spurred many people with pumilio experience to offer advice. I agree it wasn't given out well, but remember that advice is basically the point of this board.



> Thanks for the advice but I have more than enough experience with the stuff to know what I am doing


Mike, comments like this generally imply the opposite, and I think the strong impression of many people who are trying to offer advice (albeit not in a very effective way all the time) is that this is untrue. The combined experience of advanced hobbyists who post on this board amounts to hundreds of years. You really should pay attention to them. You'll have a much better experience in the hobby if you start carefully and try hard to avoid the mistakes many have already made. It seems singularly unlikely that your experience outweights that of the combined wisdom of this board, or even that you have been in the hobby that long. I am not saying this to belittle you, but rather to point out that there is so much to learn, for everyone. I am sorry that access to this information for you has been poisoned by negative comments directed at you. 

Starting out with expensive, sensitive frogs is a treacherous path even when it goes well. You'll do much better if you suck up all the info you can.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

The biggest problem is that you may not ask for the advice, but when you throw out that you are going to make a horrible mistake, many of us find it hard to idly sit by and let you make a mistake. You said you have enough experience to know what you're doing... honest (no BS) how much experience do you have? Having a bunch of frogs means nothing if you are neglecting the basic needs and and obviously putting the frogs at risk due only to the fact that you obviously* have not *researched and *do not* have the experience to make these decisions. I have to this point tried to be civil with you but you seem to have a problem with taking good advice from a number of experienced froggers and think that your ability to buy frogs because you or your family have money is very disturbing. You already have some very nice frogs that many of us would hate to see die because you insist on thinking we are attacking you rather than offering sound advice. Honestly, swallow your pride and your attitude and listen to the *GOOD* advice you have been given. Like I said before, I have tried to remain civil about everything and it's getting harder every day...


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Mike,
Try to collect as much knowledge as you can before your frogs arrive. Some of the replies on this thread have been very informative. We all have things to learn and the best motto to go by is no one knows everything and we all can learn new things. This is for everyone me included. The best way to get ones point across is with constructive criticism and not lashing out. The more knowledge we all gain the better our hobby will be for all of us.
Jason


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I just want to say that I was sincerely trying to be polite in my replies.

Get those pics of the planted viv up!!


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

Where is Kyle? He has already talked to this guy once about his terrible tude!


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

dopederson said:


> Where is Kyle he has already talk to this guy once about his terrible tude!


Kyle has a real job during the day  Like many of us!!!


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

melissa68 said:


> dopederson said:
> 
> 
> > Where is Kyle he has already talk to this guy once about his terrible tude!
> ...


Very true Melissa :wink: Glad I'm 5 hours ahead some times :lol: 

As for my "Tude"... if you notice people tried (as they have MANY times before) to let Mike know stuff he wants to do might not be best for the frogs but they get greeted with the same smart a$$ well read expert BS from him... so me being me decided to spell it out to him in a way he understood.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

My beliefs are this...

in all fairness, having just read back through the whole thread, the comments made by Mike were simply defensive and restrained.

MOST of the other comments were constructive and although maybe not the information Mike wanted to hear, were still kept polite.

I don't really think there is a need for Kyle to intervene because of Mikes 'tude' (though i certainly don't want to speak on anybody's behalf here). He apologised from before (i never did read what that was all about but besides) so now he is on a clean slate and that should be respected and not taint further posts.

Just my 2 english pounds!!

steve


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

as long as we're throwing our pounds about...

I would have to agree that certain posts by some people have rubbed me the wrong way as well. Part of that I think is becuase this forum is so different from others where being nasty is SOP, so it stands out here more. 

That said, we learned about more than just Mike on this thread didn't we? Some good, some bad. And I think most will agree that the good outweigh the bad. Some of the replies have made me wish I was a better person and remind me that we all have work to do I suppose.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Statement retracted as it might offend......

the only word i can say here is *SAD *


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

This thread is about my viv, it has nothing to do with me or anyone else on this board, please get back on the topic or dont post here. Thanks, Mike I am glad that you all have voiced your opinions but if it doesnt have something to do with my viv then dont post it, otherwise I will just start a new thread. Please dont post on the new thread if yoiu dont have something to say about the viv.


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Nice layout. With plants it will look even better.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

Not quite sure why people are apologizing for pointing out that this was going to be a 37 gallon Escudo casket but what do I know? Besides that's way off topic and definitely not as important as the tank layout, which looks nice.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Here it is planted, it still needs mosses all over including java after I can mist it for a couple weeks and get the wood saturated. I have been having problems getting my begonias to grow in my vivs for some reason or another? But I will post more pictures after I put the mosses in along with some other dry lichens for accents. This viv has gotten a lot of work put into it and I am very proud of it!! Cant wait to watch it grow it in!


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## nitsuj (Jan 21, 2007)

Very nice, the retics should love it!


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

The viv aint bad! Nice work. I do have some recommendations for you.

Begonias like the medium light places in the viv and appreciate even moisture. Not over saturated and definately not dry. If you are using rhizomatous Begonia, plant them so that about half of the growing rhizome is above the substrate. This seems to work really well for me.

While your Tillandsia look nice in your viv, I would probably move the T. ionantha from the substrate to a much higher (and drier) location. It will most definately slowly rot away down there. I grow this species outside on a bench and I water it once a month or so and it couldn't look better.

I read that you may place dry lichens in this viv. This is probably not the best idea for a somewhat sealed, moisture holding terrarium. I am willing to bet the lichen won't last more than a week.

You may also find it pleasing to add some sort of leafey vining type plant like Pothos or Philodendron scandens. It will fill in the nooks and crannies nicely and give your future inhabitants refuge which will in turn make them more bold.

It sounds like I'm just picking on you but I promise you I'm not. I just hate to sit and watch while someone make a potential mistake when the fix is usually quite easy but just needs to be said. Your bromeliads and your moss look great. Keep them looking that way! :wink: 

Nice work.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

No, that was very helpful antone. Trust me that wasnt picking on me whatsoever! I asked the question about the begonias and I know about the tillandsia but I am just trying to find a better spot for it. Do you know of any type of a vining plant that would wrap around the manzanita branch that is in there then eventually start climbing and filling in the bare wall space? That would def be helpful. I guess I just dont want the normal pothos in there but I know they are great plants for vivs. I would really like to try some different type of a vining plant. Did you see the orchids that I have planted in there? I just wanted to know if they are getting too much light bc I would HATE to kill those!! They are just ludisia discolors and ludisia discolor var. nigrescens. Maybe Harry or Rob from little frog farms could chime in on this one. I also dont know why the begonias would just die when I put them in the new viv. I keep them in a critter cage 10 gallon with a screen top. Then when I transplant them they just keep wilting until they eventually just die off? Its strange that they do great and then I just cut the plastic pot off of them and put them into the viv with the same substrate and they die? Any suggestions or answers would help out a lot. Thanks everyone in advance, Mike


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Another thing that would be really, really good for the retics (and still looks good) would be to move the moss around (placing it on logs can work well) and put a *ton* of mixed leaf litter on the bottom. It will be much better for the frogs that way.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Although the tank looks nice, I think there are some additional things to consider. 

The retics are going to enjoy leaf litter more than the mosses. I have stopped using all 'green' or another way to put it, 'illegally harvested mosses' in my tanks for 2 reasons. 

1. All the goodies that are outside, suddenly come in with the moss. So, you might have just brought in tons of insect eggs - which you are now in an optimal environment for hatching.

2. If you purchased the moss from another person, in all likelihood, it wasn't harvested with permits and was done illegally. Although some might consider moss a renewable resource - it can take a very long time for moss to recover. 

If you look at most pictures taken in frogs natural environments you will see very little moss, and tons of leaf litter. There usually isn't an over abundance of plants either. 

While show tanks are great for us to look at, I think often they create a substandard habitat for our frogs. 

I am going to caution you on 1 item, and I hope you take it seriously. Above, I mentioned the possibility of all types of insect eggs coming in with the moss. Since retics are so small, a small possiblity exists that insects could hatch which could make a meal of your retics (or any other small frog you might house in this enclosure). You might think I am just trying to scar you, but I have had friends witness spiders carrying off morphing tads...so, be careful using life moss. 

The last time I used live moss to set up a tank for a customer, we had a major flying, biting insect infestation that left us all scratching. In all likelihood you probably brought in snails & slugs which will love eatting your broms, begonias and orchids. So keep an eye open for unwanted critters.

You can tell you put a lot into your tank and it looks good. Good luck.

Melis


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Regarding loosing the begonias - are you moving them from a high humidity environment to a lower (tanks that are not fully set up - and the humidity isn't established yet) humidity environments. This would fit the description of what is happening.


Something else you might try, is placing cuttings (take it along the rhyzome) and place the cutting into the new tank. This way you won't loose the entire plant if the cutting doesn't take.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

All of the mosses that I got were from saurian and I had them sitting for about 6-8 months before I saturated it to put it in my viv. It was in vacuum sealed bags that I did after I received it from him. If you are saying that there were live animals or eggs in there it would have been extremely hard if not impossible for them to survive considering there was no air for them to breathe. I am no expert on insects so correct me if I am wrong. The begonias must be dieing going from very little humidity to quite a bit. I guess I will keep trying them and see what happens. Mike


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

Yes, but you still aren't taking into account the fact that the retics will utilize and enjoy leaf litter more then moss. 

Again, put the frog's needs first.


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## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

i had some dryed sealed air tight moss and after a week or two some nat like fly were all over it. it went strait from the bag to my tank and was only washed, i figure it was ok because it came from t-rex but i guese you can never be to carefull.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Posts like Raymonds are really not needed, I understand what melissa was saying about utilizing the leaf litter. Now, if you understood the objective of my post, it would have shown you that I was simply answering her question about the illegal moss. I know that the rainforest generally doesnt have pure moss all over the floor. But with the retics being generally arboreal they will spend a minimal time on the ground. For my viewing pleasure, since this is going in my home. I prefer to do a mix of pillow moss and leaf litter giving them and myself the best of both worlds. You see that...that was a compromise...think about it raymond.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> But with the retics being generally arboreal they will spend a minimal time on the ground. For my viewing pleasure, since this is going in my home. I prefer to do a mix of pillow moss and leaf litter giving them and myself the best of both worlds.


Mike, with all due respect, I truly think you need to do more research and may want to gain more experience before working with reticulatus.

Retics are primarily terrestrial and spend the *vast* majority of their time in the wild moving through and hunting in leaf litter.

Many other thumbnails are more arboreal, such as imitator, but even they spend a decent portion of their time hunting in leaf litter, especially if given a good microfaunal population to hunt. Froglets of practically any species, too, seem to spend the majority of their time in leaf litter.

I like the bromeliad layout you have done and it will look great when they begin to pup out and fill in.

I have found that rubbing moss over the background, such that lots of pieces fall off and stick to the background, can lead to an eventual spread of moss over the background which can look awesome.


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

PDFanatic said:


> Posts like Raymonds are really not needed, I understand what melissa was saying about utilizing the leaf litter. Now, if you understood the objective of my post, it would have shown you that I was simply answering her question about the illegal moss. I know that the rainforest generally doesnt have pure moss all over the floor. *But with the retics being generally arboreal they will spend a minimal time on the ground*. For my viewing pleasure, since this is going in my home. I prefer to do a mix of pillow moss and leaf litter giving them and myself the best of both worlds. You see that...that was a compromise...think about it raymond.


 :roll: 

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17287

Besides reading the whole thing, I suggest you pay special attention to the 3rd part of the 'general care' section. 

" A think layer of leaf litter is recommended for vivarium floor where the frogs tend to spend most of the daylight hours "

"but the frogs will retreat to the middle and upper levels at night" 

Generally arboreal.....if you plan to watch the frogs with a flashlight at night......


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Although it seems that you have a reasonable amount of frogs it seems that your common sense and general knowledge of reticulatus and pumilio are lacking. Common sense would be keeping a pair maybe a max of a quartet in a 37 gallon. General knowledge would tell you that reticulatus are more of a terrestrial species and that pumilio males andfemales will often be agressive towards one another in larger numbers in an enclosed area. The more time you put into the hobby the more you will learn. Although it seems like youhave a good start with lots of ptential. Keep reading, and especially read up on any of the species you plan to aquire.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Once again COMPLETELY off topic. Thanks for the info raymond :roll: I can do it too. It seems that my knowledge is lacking...really? Thats kind of funny when you are on a board with 15,000 members and every single one of them has their opinion of what the right way to do something is. Anyway here are some more pics of the tank. Actually since I happen to work about two miles from my house and I run my own business. It gives me plenty of time to stop home for lunch, etc. From my own observations everyday of the week, my retics are high up in their tank almost all day long and at night they retreat to the leaf litter but hey what do I know my knowledge is lacking otherwise maybe my frogs are just "different" than the rest. I think it is all based upon peoples tank setups etc how the frogs behavior is in them. That is a fact so why dont u go read a bit more  
Some moonlight!!


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## _Enix_ (Jul 31, 2005)

Looking good!

I'm diggin' the "moonlight"! That pic is very cool.

The lines are nice and clean... The flow of the plants up the back is pleasing to the eye.

Are you going to plant it more heavily? Not necessarily with broms., but maybe some dischidia or the like along the upper portions?

Let's see a whole tank shot with full lighting 8)

What is that plant in the pot in the foreground?


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

Oh, I see!

I couldn't quite figure out what was going on from the first pics, but now I get it! This is really lookn' good! Good job.

That moonlight is sweet too.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

PDFanatic said:


> I have a few more vines, jungle pods and dendro pods from BJ. I also have a few more pieces of driftwood to add to the bottom that will have broms sticking out of them. This tank has taken me a VERY long time to plan, construct and get everything in the right places. I have some extremely nice broms, orchids and begonias that I had purchased at IAD. I also have a very small carniverous plant to add along with some gorgeous pillow moss. this viv should be absolutely stunning after I get java growing on all the wood along with riccia. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated and I will post many more pics after I plant it. Then more when it grows in in a few months. I am going to put blue escudo in this tank, I wish I knew when the white banded fantasticus that I am waitlisted on will be imported bc I would LOVE to put those in here!! Who knows maybe I will just let it grow in and put them in whenever I can get my hands on them!!


Since you said in the original post that "any comments or suggestions would be appreciated"...
I will offer what I have experinced with vivs, and one of the frog species you are considering as inhabitants...
Java moss will eventually choke out, and/or overgrow the pillow moss.
What the others have said of the retics prefering leaf litter over moss is (IME)true.
Though you're retics may not show it right now (they take a few weeks to settle in) most are primarily ground dwellers, but will find a place high in the viv to sleep at night.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Mike,

I don't mean to pick you apart on this, but:



PDFanatic said:


> All of the mosses that I got were from saurian and I had them sitting for about 6-8 months before I saturated it to put it in my viv.


I didn't realize you had been in the hobby for so long. 



PDFanatic said:


> It was in vacuum sealed bags that I did after I received it from him. If you are saying that there were live animals or eggs in there it would have been extremely hard if not impossible for them to survive considering there was no air for them to breathe. I am no expert on insects so correct me if I am wrong.


I am not an expert on insects, either, but I don't get your logic. Vacuum sealed bags? Regardless of how it was sealed, moss is a plant. Plants take use CO2 & sunlight (not going into the entire process here) and make Oxygen. Insects use Oxygen and give off CO2. So, using bags where volume of air has been reduced is a lot different than putting the moss in a "Vacuum" as in space or in a laboratory. When the moss is added to the tank, the environment will be changing & stuff will be hatching.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

PDFanatic said:


> But with the retics being generally arboreal they will spend a minimal time on the ground. For my viewing pleasure, since this is going in my home. I prefer to do a mix of pillow moss and leaf litter giving them and myself the best of both worlds. You see that...that was a compromise...think about it raymond.


I don't know where you got the idea about retics being arboreal, because they are not. Retics are very much terrestrial frogs. Yes, they might climb the glass and sit in higher places, a tank for them needs to be designed with their natural habitat in mind. 

A mix of the two sound like a good idea.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

PDFanatic said:


> Once again COMPLETELY off topic.


Come on Mike!!! Every time something doesn't go as you would like you post the comment above. If you look though most of dendroboard, you will find that most of the posts on here do stray ALL THE TIME. Dendroboard is dynamic! Forums are all about flows of conversation - some happen within a thread others are broken out.



PDFanatic said:


> It seems that my knowledge is lacking...really? Thats kind of funny when you are on a board with 15,000 members and every single one of them has their opinion of what the right way to do something is.


Yes, your knowledge is lacking. There is always something new to learn. I don't think a day goes by where I don't have something to learn on this forum or from conversations with other hobbyists. IAD was a perfect example. Btw...not every single one of us have different opinions regarding how things are done or about different subjects. Different things work for different people. This forum is full of people's successes and failures, read though it and learn something...everyone else does!!! That is why it is so good. 

None of the comments have been COMPLETELY off topic. This area of the forum is *"Member's Frogs & Vivariums"* and people are going to talk about BOTH those items regardless of the fact you only want opinions about your terrarium. 

Not to be an a$$ or anything, but if you want total control over what is said, and how it is said, a better approach to sharing your information might be creating your own web site.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

You know, if you didn't know the history, MJ's comments could be considered harsh, but as this thread progresses you come to realize that perhaps it was not harsh enough.

PDFanatics, if you turn off the flash on your camera it will give you pics that show off the true look of the viv.

I'll refrain from giving any advice on the setup or the frogs since it'll just fall on deaf ears anyway.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

VicSkimmr said:


> I'll refrain from giving any advice on the setup or the frogs since it'll just fall on deaf ears anyway.


That's why I haven't said anything, but I'll tell ya what, this is great entertainment


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Not really, I really do appreciate melissa's comments but um I have been keeping darts for 3 years plus. I just havent been a member of any boards. I am going to change it up but i havent had time to take care of this as I am getting more and more busy at work everyday. I think the plant you are talking about would be the tillandsia that antone was talking about? I appreciate your comments and I consider the tank far from done. I was asking a question about what type of vining plant to use that would be somewhat different but this thread is more or less caught up in leaf litter and apparently my experience keeping darts. That is why I was talking about staying on topic. Mike


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Leaf litter is good stuff. 4 out of 5 dart frogs agree and the 5th one is busy depositing tads in the pond 8) 

Bill


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

lol...That is just too funny. Especially at your house I am sure.

Melis



elmoisfive said:


> Leaf litter is good stuff. 4 out of 5 dart frogs agree and the 5th one is busy depositing tads in the pond 8)
> 
> Bill


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

A couple other good vining plants I've used...

Monstera Obliqua - This thing is a beast! I swear it grows an inch a day and has done laps in my 33g cube with a thick 1/4" green vine. The swiss cheese leaves give a neat tropical look.

Philodendron - Many different varieties. The basic garden center, dark green type is hardy and covers everything in no time. The "Brazil" is a varigated one with a thicker vine, red new growth. I also have a heart shaped slow grower and a greenish/redish type. Both do well. The "Ginny" is a cool looking Philo with split leaves. It can over take a viv if not trimmed. (Sorry I don't know the latin names)

Ficus - Many different varieties. Varigated, oak leaf, curly... They all grow relatively slowly and make great ground cover especially near water features.

Don't remember if you had a pond, but consider adding some aquatic plants, riccia(can be nice ground cover too), duckweed, ect.

It is normal practice in this forum for people to discuss what frogs are going into the vivs that people post about here. Comments are provided for success and the greater good. I've not kept retics but would like to at some point, so I can't offer much advice. However, I do subscribe to the current view that we all need more leaf litter. 

I personally think that terrestrial vs. arboreal discussions are good, but can be excessive. I'm not sure they apply when we're talking about vivs that are only two feet tall. All my imitators and intermedius use every bit of their verts. My terribilis and other phyllobates climb like crazy all over their tanks. 

Additionally, it's important to provide temperature and moisture gradients
thoughout the tank to allow the frogs to regulate their needs.

EricG.NH


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## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

> That's why I haven't said anything, but I'll tell ya what, this is great entertainment


so agreed


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

On Topic:
I like the tank however I would suggest buying some creepers such as hoyas an pepperomias, they will add an asthetic touch to the tank. Along with possibly a plant such as pothos or creeping fig, I use to hate those plants but I found their practicality is very important. I also use to like moss but found that leaf litter is a much better flooring. Get those vines and sticks covered in some clmibers should look great.

Now as far as an off topic remark. It seems that you defend yourself with snide somments and a big ego. People only were becoming upset with you because you are not getting something. You keep saying comments are off topic but they are just a way of telling you what not to do. In all honest 3 years of keeping... i would think you would know a bit more.


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## Guest (May 15, 2007)

Wow Nice viv! How did you get the moonlight effect? (PM?) Love the broms and the background as well. Thanks


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

^You can buy coralife lights that have the moonlight effects in them. They go on at night when you switch the other lights off. They are kind of pricey though, I dunno if its worth what you have to pay to get them!! On the other hand, they look awesome at night!! Thanks for the kind remarks. Mike


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

You can find those on ebay as well, but you need to know something about them to make sure you're not just buying half of what you need for the complete set up.

I see a lot of reef people using those too. I wonder though about the affect if any on the inhabitants of the tank. Particularly for species that are more inclined to like an environment filled with leaf litter it would seem that perhaps they might not want a light on them 24x7. They do look nice in general, but I think the "moonlight" lights are more about what we want than what the animals want.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

I dont leave them on at night. I have used it once since I bought the light so I wouldnt get to intrigued and buy one. I leave it dark in there at night bc I wouldnt like light shining in my eyes all night when I was trying to sleep either!!!


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## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

in the part and construction part of dendroboard i just posted about a awsome light that if you buy the salt water one(i did acidently) it comes with a moonlight bulb. the fixture is 30$ i think and thats with 2 bulbs. works great.

heres the link however to the fixture so you dont got to loo on the other post.http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=11382&N=2004+113345

i use it with 1 6700k bulb. works great


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> From my own observations everyday of the week, my retics are high up in their tank almost all day long and at night they retreat to the leaf litter but hey what do I know my knowledge is lacking otherwise maybe my frogs are just "different" than the rest. I think it is all based upon peoples tank setups etc how the frogs behavior is in them. That is a fact so why dont u go read a bit more


This is often the case with new retics. In time they will most likely settle down and spend the majority of their time in the leaf litter. They are truly not an arboreal frog.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Mike 

Im not sure what u expect people to say about the way you are handling things. I am sure it would be much easier if you said what you said to a bunch of people that got into the hobby last week, but the fact remains that people who have been in the hobby much longer then 3 years ( as you sai ) are trying to give you advice. I am sorry but if someone tells me they are going to keep Escudos like that, or make a 2 gallon tank for a frog etc i get freaking agitated. 

I think i talk for most when i say that we never stop learning. I have been around the hobby for quite some time, to tell you the truth not sure how long, and im still learning things all the time. All i gotta say man is dont close your ears and get defensive, this is a discussion. Dont forget this is all about the health and happyness of the frogs, which alot of people seem to forget.


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## nitsuj (Jan 21, 2007)

I just seeded my tank with springs, added isopods and added a bunch of leaf litter in my intermedius tank, before they were always in the broms up high, now I see them constantly rumaging through the litter.


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## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

On topic: Tanks looking good. Very pleasing.

Off Topic: I'm curious to know if you've been in the hobby for 3 years or so, did something happen to your collection that slimmed it down? Or did you only keep a couple darts for three years and then decide to expand? As I look at your sig, i implies that most frogs there have been recently acquired because they aren't sexed at all. Not trying to step on toes, just asking a question to help understand you. If you feel you'd rather not air this in public forum, please feel free to pm me. I'm interested to bounce some ideas off someone in the hobby as long as yourself. 

Tony


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

Mike,

Just a post from February 2007 I found.....

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... ight=#7804

You would imagine (since at that point you would have been in the hobby for ~2.5 years) that someone with this much experience would know the answer to such a common question and not refer to their frogs in the same manner as they are commonly labeled when sold in pet stores. 

http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... ight=#7863

Yeah, so 2.5 years of experience and you go around telling people that:

' Your frogs wont create babies unless they hibernate and then only after that will they begin to mate" 

:lol: 

I'm sure a dedicated hobbiest such as yourself would have some nice pictures of your frogs and tanks dating back to when you first started. You know...those pictures with the dates on them? How about showing us some pictures. Of course, you have nothing to hide, so I can't see why you won't comply.


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Raymond (and anyone else who is off topic), I believe this is going too far. No need to persue any personnal coflicts you may have with Mike. Please drop the subject and stick with the purpose of the thread, the viv.... 

Lets live by the golden rule here; if you do not have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all (err I think thats how it goes..?)


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## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

Anoleo2, I can see your point about staying on topic, however as pointed out by many folks already these forums are a place for us dart people to come and share/learn knowledge of the species. For me I'm not persuing personal conflict of any nature, but I do like to point out if it seems people are contradicting themelves as I'm sure you can see where thats happening. So long as the attacks don't get personal to the point of name calling and literal verbal abuse, I think all posts on this board to be relevent and permitted. If someone of his supposed tenure in the hobby is questioned they certainly shouldn't have anything to hide. Why not share some of the garnered information. That's simply all I'm looking for. I learn more and more each day from everyone new and old and I'm interested in taking part of that. But I'll call a spade a spade and would expect everyone else to do the same.


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Agreed. 

BTW, the viv looks great planted. I like the broms, but then, who doesn't... :wink:


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Actually to tell you the truth, I only did have a couple of frogs for that time period and I never was very involved until recently. I have though had them for a good amount of time. If you would like some references I would be more than happy to give them to you. Pm me. So your saying that bc I didnt put auratus behind the name that I havent been involved with something for that long? That is great LOL. I havent ever bought a pdf in a pet store to begin with either. I can like I said give you names and numbers, if you feel the need to hash it out with them, and you want to waste your time doing that, go right ahead I would LOVE to prove you wrong. The frogs that I did have for quite a long amount of time which were my cobalts were named properly but I am assuming that since I hadnt wasted my time giving you more info that I wasnt an expert? I am kinda shocked Raymond, you put that kind of time into little old me? Now im starting to blush, I feel so special, you must really like me and enjoy reading my posts!!  Thanks!!!!!!!


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## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

I'm not looking for references. I'm simply seeking to get to know you and where you're coming from so that I can better relate. I think I now understand more and I'll be leaving you alone. Hope your years of experience pay off with your tank design's for inhabitants as well. Take care!!!!


Tony


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Tony, you have to email me, I would love to chat with you and try to help you in any way possible. Thanks, Mike


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## PickingRice484 (Sep 21, 2005)

Mike everyone has a point my good man


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## nick65 (Mar 7, 2005)

Mike,
a suggestion for a climbing plant..i have marcgravia in my paludarium . mine grows quite well on tree fern .
nick


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