# Thinkin' I've already ran into trouble.



## boosh96 (Apr 10, 2012)

Simply put, I bought a probable pair of D. azureus at the reptile show on Sunday, and they are getting along just fine. However, Stan hasn't eaten at all, at least with me watching, whereas Wendy eats like a little pig. Any brilliant ideas, suggestions?


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

He may be still acclimating to his new home. Unless he is dropping weight, I wouldn't worry too much. Is he hiding a lot, or out and about? If he is hiding a lot, give him some time to adjust. If he is out and about, try doing 2 seperate feedings. Sometimes one frog will simply out compete the other. If one frog gets it's fill at the first feeding, it will be less competitive for the food on the second feeding. I would space the feedings by about an hour or more. Best of luck, and keep us posted!

JBear


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Has he been vomiting alot as well!?


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## FRISCHFROGS (Jan 15, 2012)

Maybe he doesn't like his name!


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

Are they in quarantine separate from each other or did you put them straight into their enclosure? 

He would be much easier to monitor in quarantine and fecal tests could and should be done. If he is sick you will have to tear down and sterilize the enclosure that they are in.


Sean


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## boosh96 (Apr 10, 2012)

He does not seem to be sick. However, it looks like he has dropped a little weight since I got him. I could have sworn I saw him eat a few fruit flies yesterday, though.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

I would seperate him to make sure he is eating properly and so you can monitor him more closely.


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I would not move him again. I have had the same happen, a new frog won't eat for awhile. Maybe he eats when you aren't looking. What I do is leave them alone. Less stress, quicker acclimation and they eat. I have seen a frog lose some weight, but never starve to death. They do start eating.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

No need to separate him unless you notice he is losing weight. I think the two meals a day idea is a good one.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

How often are you "observing" the frog? You took frogs from a show, placed them into a new enclosure and have been watching them (at least at points) very intently (to the point you think he has lost weight). That is more than a little stress on a frog so reduced or not feeding should be expected to some extent. Stop helicopter parenting on the frogs..... 

You should really get fecals done on the frog since if it has lost weight this quickly, that can be a strong indication of something going with the frog such as coccidia, or another parasite. Obesity is very common in captive frogs (even in those that don't look too fat) so a healthy looking tinctorius (azureus) should be able to go a week or more without losing enough weight for it to be visible. 

As for more than one feeding reducing competition for food that only works if you are overfeeding the frogs to the point where the more aggressive feeder literally cannot feed anymore. The frogs are hard wired to otherwise feed heavily since in the wild there is always the risk that food will not be available. A feeding station is a better method (use a small piece of orange or other fruit). Since it will keep an over abundence of flies in a localized area keeping the flies from roaming and possibly further stressing the frogs.


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

For frogs, what is the recommended treatment for coccidia? Amprolium?


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

Again basic quarantine procedures folks. How many times does it have to be said. This info is out there in bulk but continually ignored. You as a keeper have the responsability to research and implement proper care, quarantine pops up right away if you search for it. Hell it's in every beginner sticky that seem to be passed over for more exciting threads like... " check out my waterfall" and " my mixed tank is so cool!!" 

Sorry just tired of hearing the same stuff over and over when it is all preventable by 10 minutes of reading.

Anyways good luck. 


Sean


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> For frogs, what is the recommended treatment for coccidia? Amprolium?


When I see questions like this in response to a theoretical issue, it makes me think that the poster intends to shotgun treat the frog without actually getting the fecals done on the frog. This is a significant problem since you could totally miss the causative agent and harm the frog by running it through unnecessary treatment regimens. 

Ed


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

But Ed, don't you see? You made an assumption. And when you assume...

Sometimes a question is just a question. Beyond that, though, preventative worming or using a coccidiostat may be prudent in some cases even without a fecal. Cocci can be nasty, sometimes causing much damage to the animal by the time it is first discovered. This of course would be on an on-species basis once it is known that such products have low-risk to the animal being preventatively treated and inside a predetermined maintenance program.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

heyduke said:


> Again basic quarantine procedures folks. How many times does it have to be said. This info is out there in bulk but continually ignored. You as a keeper have the responsability to research and implement proper care, quarantine pops up right away if you search for it. Hell it's in every beginner sticky that seem to be passed over for more exciting threads like... " check out my waterfall" and " my mixed tank is so cool!!"
> 
> Sorry just tired of hearing the same stuff over and over when it is all preventable by 10 minutes of reading.
> 
> ...


They never said it wasn't in quarantine. They just said it wasn't eating and asked what to do. If reading beginner issues (which will ALWAYS be the same issues) bothers you, maybe you should stay in general discussion. 

Just as you get tired, I also get tired of senior forgers jumping on new people for the same questions the senior frogger probably asked when they were new and nervous (unless you happened to be the first person to ever ask that question and couldn't search it).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> But Ed, don't you see? You made an assumption. And when you assume...
> 
> Sometimes a question is just a question. Beyond that, though, preventative worming or using a coccidiostat may be prudent in some cases even without a fecal. Cocci can be nasty, sometimes causing much damage to the animal by the time it is first discovered. This of course would be on an on-species basis once it is known that such products have low-risk to the animal being preventatively treated and inside a predetermined maintenance program.


When you've been around the hobby for more than 20 years, it is common to see people ask questions like that and proceed to self diagnosis and treatment of the frogs without getting a fecal check to see if that is actually the problem. The excuse is often "I don't have a local vet that is willing to treat the frogs"... In a surprising number of those claims, a search of the ARAV data base puts vets locally that do treat frogs... And in those cases where there aren't any vets locally, there are several vets that will read fecals mailed to them for the hobbyist.... Not only is shot gun treatments a risk to the health of the frog (particularly now that supposedly safe antiparasiticals like fenbendazole cause issues at dosages much lower than what were considered safe dosages) but increase the risk of resistent parasites/pathogens. 

Unfortunately a number of parasites can present with similar overall symptoms as coccidians in anurans. For example hookworms can cause a frog to have weight loss, and other issues as can Rhabdius infections or even some bacterial infections. In addition when dealing with coccidial infections in frogs, it is clear in the literature that treatment renders the frog asymptomatic but still infected (and if the frog has hookworm or Rhabdius lungworms, it will become reinfected when returned to the tank since these parasites can develop into superinfections due to thier life style and mode of action). It has become increasingly clear over the years that repeated or shot gun treatments of the frogs actually are a negative... 
Now if you are having fecals run on a schedule, then preventative dosing makes more sense since you actually have an idea of what is going on in the frog (and currently the trend for cutting edge vets is to not treat unless there is an issue with the health of the frog (see for example this post http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-4.html#post298624 by Dr. Wright who is one of the author/editors for the currently definitive work on Amphibian Medicien....). 

Ed


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

boosh96 said:


> He does not seem to be sick. However, it looks like he has dropped a little weight since I got him. I could have sworn I saw him eat a few fruit flies yesterday, though.


Can you update us on Stan? I don't want Wendy to be a widow this early


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I have the opposite problem. Too many people to look at my frog's poo. The local vet is trained in just about every animal you can think of. We have two farms in the family. My aunt is a zoologist at a major zoo. My hands on science teacher is into parasites. Plus, I have a couple microscopes and stereoscopes here and love to use them.

Amprolium is pretty mild. Is this what is generally used for treatment? Usually hard to get in tiny quantities. The gallon size would treat 15,987 frogs heehee


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sulfadimethoxine is what is listed in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry (2001, Krieger Press). 

Ed


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

Is cocci generally seen like it is in other animals, where always present, but animals build resistance with exposure? If that is true, I would guess it is most prevalent in younger frogs? I cannot say I have had any frogs with it.


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## boosh96 (Apr 10, 2012)

Stan seems to be doing better now. He ate some fruit flies with me watching yesterday, and all in all he seems to be doing okay at this point. I admittedly have not quarantined either of them, however.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> Is cocci generally seen like it is in other animals, where always present, but animals build resistance with exposure? If that is true, I would guess it is most prevalent in younger frogs? I cannot say I have had any frogs with it.


 
As I understand it from the literature, no, they do not build resistance..however the immune system often keeps it under control until there is a major stressor resulting in immunosuppression on the frog at which point, the frog can suddenly begin to decline which further impacts the immune system and can rapidly result in death... The problem is that other parasites such as hookworm can also do the same thing which is why fecal checks are important. In addition, there are multiple species and/or strains of coccidia in anurans and the frog can become infected with more than one of these over the course of time. Cryptosporidium was recently confirmed in toads from Malaysia (and there are historical reports in marine toads) which means that it may not respond to treatment with standard coccidia medications. 

Ed 

Ed


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

Frogs may be different than warm-blooded animals. In them, resistance to cocci does increase with age. You only usually see cocci in very stressed animals once older on the farm.

I don't know much about cryptosporidium other than it seems to pop up in city water from time to time. One reason why I make Dad buy water


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> Frogs may be different than warm-blooded animals. In them, resistance to cocci does increase with age. You only usually see cocci in very stressed animals once older on the farm.
> 
> I don't know much about cryptosporidium other than it seems to pop up in city water from time to time. One reason why I make Dad buy water


I'm not overly versed on farm mammals but coccodiosis can be a cause of significant disease (and mortality) in naive adult poultry.. I wouldn't be surprised to find that constant or low level exposure post partum results in an efficient immune response preventing severe manifestations in most adult farm mammals. 

You can contract cryptosporidium in other ways as well... 

Ed


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

In poultry, it usually affects the young birds. In adults, it is usually a secondary infection taking advantage of the weakened state of already ill birds. I've seen it in puppies as well but never adult dogs.

Amprolium is in the feed, low dose to prevent it. Doesn't help when you have a lot of young birds. My grandpa used to add additional liquid amprolium to the water.


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## milez803 (Jun 10, 2009)

same problem occur to me with my pair of pumilio. After i move the tank from my computer table to frog rack, i notice the male decline in weight, might be due to heavy traffic from me walk to the door in and out..so i end up using a black board and cover the front of the vivarium..to allow privacy. after 1 month or so..he regain his weight. Also started calling again, after 3 month of no calling. Sad thing is..the female doesn't love him.. only lay egg once, which went bad and never lay again.. funny how things work. i gave up on breeding them..as long as they are healthy..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> In poultry, it usually affects the young birds. In adults, it is usually a secondary infection taking advantage of the weakened state of already ill birds. I've seen it in puppies as well but never adult dogs.


Your referring to populations of birds that have already aquired an immune response due to low levels of exposure over time. In poultry (according to the Merk Manual), there is no true age related resistence. (see Merck Veterinary Manual). If you rear the chicks in a manner where they have little or no exposure to coccidia and then once they are adults expose them suddenly to higher levels of coccidia, you can experience significant mortality particularly of some of the more pathenogenic species/strains of coccidia...... 




> Amprolium is in the feed, low dose to prevent it. Doesn't help when you have a lot of young birds. My grandpa used to add additional liquid amprolium to the water.


Even as far back as the mid-1980s, widespread resistence to Amprolium was showing up in various coccidians.. See for example JSTOR: Avian Diseases, Vol. 30, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1986), pp. 690-694 where almost 50% of the tested coccidians were resistant... 

Ed


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

Yes, the age resistance comes from exposure to cocci over time.


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## boosh96 (Apr 10, 2012)

From now on, I'm pretty sure Stan is going to do great. He's starting to eat like a little hog, and he and Wendy even start to hop around excitedly and to the front of the tank when it's feeding time!


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

boosh96 said:


> From now on, I'm pretty sure Stan is going to do great. He's starting to eat like a little hog, and he and Wendy even start to hop around excitedly and to the front of the tank when it's feeding time!


Wonderful! Frogs are like teenagers. Sometimes you just have to give them their space. Or just watch them from hidden cameras (I don't recommend this option ha-ha).


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## rubber_soul (May 12, 2012)

milez803 said:


> same problem occur to me with my pair of pumilio. ..as long as they are healthy..


That’s true, as long as they are healthy & survive well in their living environment together, that’s all you can hope for. Maybe one day they will surprise you when you least expect it and you’ll find eggs again, since they have laid once before. Like Jeeperrs said, frogs are like teenages, they just need their space, lol. Have you had success breeding other frogs


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