# mint teribbilis concern....



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

yes i am going to contact dr.frye about this. they are still in quarantine and have been for 2 months. two are in one medium sized sterilite box and this one with another that is fat and looks ok. here are the pics. what might it be? black marks i could not get offwith mister.. half the size of its quarantine mate? also a little discolored orange but maybe due to some cheaper sphagnum i put in before the new zealand nice kind shipped in? i am worried. my guesses: skin abrasions, but from what, i don't know....or chytrid my worse fear. here are the pics and please tell me what you think? you should see the other three that are nearing 12 months old. they are as big as my tincs just fatter. they were not photogenic unfortunately today for comparison. I do have dr.frye's first aid kit. check these pics out:


















getting skinny, not much of an appetite, i put in new quarantine today. oh, and they have had three clean consecutive fecals now. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

kristy55303 said:


> yes i am going to contact dr.frye about this. they are still in quarantine and have been for 2 months. two are in one medium sized sterilite box and this one with another that is fat and looks ok. here are the pics. what might it be? black marks i could not get offwith mister.. half the size of its quarantine mate? also a little discolored orange but maybe due to some cheaper sphagnum i put in before the new zealand nice kind shipped in? i am worried. my guesses: skin abrasions, but from what, i don't know....or chytrid my worse fear. here are the pics and please tell me what you think? you should see the other three that are nearing 12 months old. they are as big as my tincs just fatter. they were not photogenic unfortunately today for comparison. I do have dr.frye's first aid kit. check these pics out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i wish dr.frye was in on wednesdays, but unfortunately he is not. anybody have any ideas? I fed the feller today and got sooo jealous at how much bigger the other three terribillis are. they are bigger than my tinc adult female and very fat. most people dont like this term, but i still refer to them as golfball with legs. except this feller. So i'll be patient and wait for dr.frye to return my email tomorrow. blonde moment. i thought it was thursday, when in fact it is wed! yes, atleast i have an excuse for being blonde lol. anyhow, i am really concerned. he did eat some today but stayed hidden in his makeshift cocohut, unlike the others who seem to stand out motionless in plain view begging for food like a puppy. these are he meds i have on hand. panancur(but three clean fecals so don't think i should prophylactically treat for parasites, metronidazole, baytril, and ssd cream. I also have the lamisil at spray in case others think it could be chytrid, though i doubt it. But anything is possible. my guess, abrasions that got infected. and the poor feller was being outcompeted for food? causing stress? the other mints look outstandingly large and very well taken care of. this baffled me when i first noticed a few marks....but thought it was probably just some excess pieces of feces or ff on him. i am baffled. I guess i should have had my glasses on or contact lenses and took a better look. I cant stress enough that the other three and even the one in the same quarantine as this one are extremely beautiful looking. I change out sphagnum every 2-3 weeks and sanitize everything and put sanitized leaflitter/pothos both on the ground and upright planted. seeded with springtails. the springtails are definately colonized in these quarantines and tonight i will be changing them out. I am glad i caught this issue, cause i was ready to put them in a viv this coming next week probably. uggh! so over 30 people have viewed it and no comments? Rich....do you have any suggestions while i wait for your brother to be back in the office tomorrow. you may not be a vet, but extremely knowledgeable i believe in these situations. kristy


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Kristi, 
I am not the vet and don't like giving out med suggestions ,
but you have silver sulfa and it does look like it could be skin infection. The silver sulfadiazine is fairly safe and very effective against many bacterial and fungal infections. Make sure to keep it away from eyes. 
I know there were issues with deaths from infected Chilean sphag moss some years ago. You may need to send my brother better pics for him to see what the spots look like. So if you have a decent macro cam I'd take better shots and send them along.
I don't advocate treating with anything before knowing what the trouble is , but out of the meds you have on hand I'd say the silver sulfa is your best/safest bet. My brother will be in the office first thing in the morning though, so waiting it out a few more hours may be the best idea.
Good luck,
Rich


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Rich Frye said:


> Kristi,
> I am not the vet and don't like giving out med suggestions ,
> but you have silver sulfa and it does look like it could be skin infection. The silver sulfadiazine is fairly safe and very effective against many bacterial and fungal infections. Make sure to keep it away from eyes.
> I know there were issues with deaths from infected Chilean sphag moss some years ago. You may need to send my brother better pics for him to see what the spots look like. So if you have a decent macro cam I'd take better shots and send them along.
> ...



rich thank you for replying. i think he or she will be ok till tomorrow, but if it were over the weekend i would have used the same medication. new zealand moss only for now on. promise lol. yeah i had a blonde moment today and thought today was thursday! ha ha. I think since it is evening i will wait it out. 

question: could this be a possible result of mite infested cultures. will they eat on the skin of darts? I did feed out some old cultures at one point and then threw them away. I am never buying sphagnum again without it being the top of the line new zealand kind that is nice. The other three look outstanding. they are huge and cant imagine what they will be like in another year when they reach sexual maturity. this one i am hoping it is a treatable abrasion/bacterial infection that will recover. I'll wait for your bro. i knew asking you for advice that you dont like to recommend treatments since your brother is the expert in dart medicine and diagnosis, but i also know your input can be very factual as well as beneficial considering the circumstances. So once again, thank you for the advice. It was very much appreciated by me.  kristy let you all know what the doc says tomorrow. I'll see if i can get better shots as well. in the meantime he is separated and i am switching out the sphagnum.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I've not seen this condition before. Another thing you might want to consider is to test for chytrid anyway while you can get a good sample. Someone was selling the kits here a little while ago. Regardless of the final outcome with this little guy, it might be a good thing to know.

I agree with Rich on this and would be inclined to apply the SS. It's worth the shot IMO.

Lastly, while you might not get much in return, you should at least try to contact the breeder you got him from. 

Best of luck with him,


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

pl259 said:


> I've not seen this condition before. Another thing you might want to consider is to test for chytrid anyway while you can get a good sample. Someone was selling the kits here a little while ago. Regardless of the final outcome with this little guy, it might be a good thing to know.
> 
> I agree with Rich on this and would be inclined to apply the SS. It's worth the shot IMO.
> 
> ...


i agree with rich on all aspects of his recommendations. i think i will wait till morning to hear from dr. frye first. the breeder i got them from has always given me quality darts that have never had parasite issues. i have had three consecutive clean fecals over the months. the breeder is a wonderful breeder at that. If anything is wrong with this dart, it is just a something that happened, or i caused it, and i should have sought attention earlier when i first noticed some spots. I did email dr. frye then, but as i look through my sent messages, my email got screwed up and i do not believe he received it. we will see what he thinks tomorrow before i do anything prophylactically. I would rather not do any more harm than has already been showed in my pics of he or she. the dart is reaching 12 months and the other three look amazingly large and act normally and have no spots like this. my guess if i were to make a guess, would be a bacterial infection and not treating soon enough. hopefully, he or she will make it through any treatments dr. frye prescribes. otherwise, i feel it is just my fault for not making sure my message to him was properly sent. crossing my fingers but have faith he/she will be ok. 
oh and i think it was dane who was selling the kits so i will contact him as well. kristy


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Just to clarify...my suggestion to contact the breeder was not for the purpose of getting your money back, but to simply ask if he/she had perhaps seen the condition before. They may have even treated it successfully. While the probability may be low that they would come back with valuable info, it can't hurt IMO and is an easy thing to do.

Sorry if I was unclear in my initial post,


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

pl259 said:


> Just to clarify...my suggestion to contact the breeder was not for the purpose of getting your money back, but to simply ask if he/she had perhaps seen the condition before. They may have even treated it successfully. While the probability may be low that they would come back with valuable info, it can't hurt IMO and is an easy thing to do.
> 
> Sorry if I was unclear in my initial post,


thats ok. i talked with dr.frye about it and from the way of the email he sent back, he seemed in shock to be honest. bacterial dermatitis or fungal dermatitis. I am going to treat with baytril and the ssd. just waiting on his repy how to not infect the bottle the medications are in and how to actually put on the dart. Any suggestions? as the dart is obviously covered in it and some are near the eyes of the dart i believe or atleast it tympanum if dats do have that(hearing spot) he does believe this to be a chronic condition and if it were chytrid believes the dart would have been dead within a couple weeks but can't outrule it either it seems. so here i am obsessively compulsive about it. i'm concerned for my entire collection. Think i'll contact dane to see if he has those pcr tests still. i am going to see if i see improvement with the ssd, and the baytril and if not will start the lamisil treatment??? what are all of your thoughts on this? this is completely spooking me out. Here i am thinking i am going to throw out every springtail culture i have, every mister i have and replace. Am i being tooooo over cautious and freaking out or would you feel the same way. There are other fungal infections of the skin that are not chytrid. I feel like this is my fault, and just want to put it out there to everyone.....please only use the nice new zealand sphagnum moss seeded with springs for your quarantines. They sell it at some orchid shops locallly, i know vivarium concepts sells it as well as azdr ....maybe more. i have done everything per asn protocol and am shocked myself that this has happened. Darts are sooo fragile, and we need to do whats best for them. not buy lowes sphagnum moss or cheap sphagnum moss. get the good stuff. ugh! i am so mad at myself right now. kristy


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

If you use it, be very careful with Baytril. Do not overdose. I made that mistake once and lost a nice terrib. I've heard SS is safer. I'd try a little on his back to see how he responds. Wear gloves and throw them out when done.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

pl259 said:


> If you use it, be very careful with Baytril. Do not overdose. I made that mistake once and lost a nice terrib. I've heard SS is safer. I'd try a little on his back to see how he responds. Wear gloves and throw them out when done.


yep got the protocol from dr.frye just now. do baytril little on back. it absorbs ....wait 10-15 minutes and do the ssd and mist it all over dart. so keeping my fingers crossed. thanks for the advice. I'm glad dr.frye is available for times like these. And this board for that matter. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

oh...and i will give updates once a day on the treatments. how it went and if he survived etc. it would be my fault if he didnt. I take full responsibility for that. I should have been more observative. i shouldnt be getting down on myself so much, but i have a passion for the darts as well as a conservation standpoint, and also they are like members of my family with all the time and effort i put into them. kristy


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

I wish you luck and look forward to the outcome. It makes me nervous as I have 5 terribs in QT as I type. I can only hope I have provided them with the best accommodations as possible now and in the future.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

thank you chad. i will give updates. also make sure you use new zealand mos. if this was the cause, i'd hate to see anyone else go through it. my terribillis are 12 months old practically and very hard to find at that age. expensive. keep the newzealand moss seeded with springs and change out every 2-3 weeks and make sure you run three fecals and treat if necessary. kristy


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Not sure where my sphagnum came from. It was packaged and sold by Flukers at the local pet store. I will look online for better moss for when I do my QT cleanup.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

definately order from vivarium concepts...best price i think and get the largest bail she sells. it is really important you do this for quarantines, seed it with springtails so you dont have to change it out for 2-3 weeks and put sanitized pothos cutting in. i also saw one other post you made about one month quarantine...well it should really be optimal 90 days three consecutive clean fecals and at a minimum 45 days. reading up on the asn protocols will help chad. and i encourage you to join twi/asn. I just ordered three huge bails from cindy at vivarium concepts along with some wood lice and i forked out the 134.00 shipped cuz it is worth it. but i have a lot of darts so you can get away with just one large bail for your quarantine process right now. the mints dont reach sexual maturity till 2-3 yrs if you have a pair. But they are cool as they are very pretty and look like they just stand out in the open begging for food like a puppy. golfballs with legs. you can make your own descisions, but i urge you to do the quarantine protocols i just told you about. one month is defiantely not enough IMO and a lot others. I gave meds today and hopefully i can have update pics once a day for this thread. kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Kristy -

Sorry I didn't see this earlier. I only breezed over the earlier threads, but I concur with Dr. Frye's diagnosis. They appear to be cutaneous infections; I would say fungal based on my experience and on previous conversations with one of the exotics vets here at Cornell, but it could very well be bacterial. 

As such, I would recommend slightly adjusting your treatment protocol to include an antifungal. The silver sulfadiazene can help with a fungal infection, but to be safe I would add a designated anti-fungal. I have used Tolnaftate in the past. You can get this over the counter. Ed K mentioned in a recent Frognet thread to make sure the OTC med doesn't contain benzocaine in the ingredients - so make sure to check the label. 

I had good success in treating a similar infection in reticulatus froglets a few years back. I treated with a suspension of silver sulfadiazene and tolnaftate in water (although if I did it now, I would use amphibian ringers solution). I had very good response for all of the retics treated - and all completely cleared the infection. However, the exotics/zoo vet at Cornell had less success with treating these infections in other amphibians - and experienced high mortality rates. I treated once a day (topically) for 2 or 3 weeks. One thing to remember with fungal infections is that they are harder to treat than bacterial infections, and generally require a longer treatment period to eliminate all of the organisms.

Here are some pictures of the Retics. They aren't the best, and the lesions were smaller than those on your terribilis:

















Also, while the exact cause of the cutaneous infection in my frogs was not determined, it was suspected that the infections arose from bite wounds from predatory mites (that were secondarily infected). So, your idea that mites may be the cause is a possibility. I have had lots of mite infestations in froglet containers (the small brown-orange ones) that were great froglet food - but they never seemed to disturb the froglets. So depending on the species of mite, it is a possibility.

Keep us posted on the progress.

Oz


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

rozdaboff said:


> Kristy -
> 
> Sorry I didn't see this earlier. I only breezed over the earlier threads, but I concur with Dr. Frye's diagnosis. They appear to be cutaneous infections; I would say fungal based on my experience and on previous conversations with one of the exotics vets here at Cornell, but it could very well be bacterial.
> 
> ...


ok so i have been treating with both baytril and ssd....now i believe they could be from some mite infested cultures i dropped in on their last days of production. then they did this and caused this. if it is fungal, i am blaming the cheap sphagnum i got? i dont know . maybe a combonation of both..i appreciate your response. and it does look like your retics and the three others have shown one to two microspots of this now as well in different quarantines. i do long quarantines per asn. now tell me as i did read some frognet info. this medication, i have no clue what it looks like. do you have a pic of it? if i run to the pharmacy and ask for it without any anesthetics in it what is the protocol to use. safe in your opinion? also is it a cream, ointment, liquid etc. i need to know how to apply the whole nine yards. thanks so much for wanting to help. maybe the quarantine got overinfested with mites of a certain species....i am cleaning out my culture room and putting cultures in my frog room i am building now, and will clean it out with some mite spray everywhere to try and avoid this. i know they didnt come in with chytrid. i just know it. the breeder is excellent and i would name them if it was allowed, but no vendor ratings. all darts i have received from them have always come in clean even when the top breeders seem to come in with 75% of my darts with hookworm. but not these. they are absolutely gorgeous at 12 months old and this one, just got the worst of it. Any help from you will be obviously appreciated. seriously. i love these mints...sean stewarts line and are excellent! this guy went from very good looking to bad within a week, unless i was too involved with all my other quarantines to notice. i was almost ready to put them into a viv when the hubby said oh my gosh! i think something is wrong quick look! and he doesnt even appreciate my passion for darts and their conservation lol. so what is a store to get this at. what is the medication used for normally???? i got so paranoid i changed out my misters and bought a large quantity of new zealand sphagnum moss...my fav....and everything else. i am big on doing everything per asn. believe me. I was always told mites wont hurt darts till dr. frye said it could be possible and he said he highly doubts it is chytrid. more bacterial dermatitis or fungal dermatitis or both. Its crazy but just incase i even picked up some lamisil at pump spray in case it was chytrid to try and treat and cure??? who knows till it is proven, but it has worked so far in some studies. he looks slightly better today. only slightly though. not out of the woods. and they have lost all juvie coloration, so any black spots on legs etc are the possible infection. I have been babying this feller and will start treatment on the other three even though you almost need a magnifying lens to see any spots on their back. this guy suddenly got infected and not wanting to eat and hide, and then lost sone weight. let me know what to do asap. dr. frye is very good at what he prescribes and does and will stick to that but i can add in your treatment as well once you post where i can get it and how to use etc. thanks so very much. he or she is like a part of the family. all of my darts are. It will devastate me to lose him or her. so for now i have been putting one drop of baytril on back and waiting ten-15 minutes and putting ssd on frog all over and dr. frye said to mist it all over since it is a chronic condition and very bad. I believe his first exact sentence was"holy cow!" yeah...he's as concerned as i am. kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

kristy55303 said:


> ok so i have been treating with both baytril and ssd....now i believe they could be from some mite infested cultures i dropped in on their last days of production. then they did this and caused this. if it is fungal, i am blaming the cheap sphagnum i got? i dont know.


Both fungi and bacteria are ubiquitous in the environment. The sphagnum didn't have to be cheap to potentially contaminate the wound. All it needed was the right conditions for infection.



> this medication, i have no clue what it looks like. do you have a pic of it? if i run to the pharmacy and ask for it without any anesthetics in it what is the protocol to use. safe in your opinion? also is it a cream, ointment, liquid etc.


It is a common antifungal that you could find in your local big-box pharmacy or the supermarket. Look for it in the jock-itch/athlete's foot area. I get it as a cream (1%) - but I think I have seen it at 2% as well.



> i need to know how to apply the whole nine yards.


There are two ways of applying. Ed posted that he had good luck with using the SSD topically as a cream directly. Tolnaftate can be applied the same way. I would equal parts of each, mix them together, and apply them topically. You could also mix the two ingredients 1:1 in water - and apply it dropwise. You decrease the concentration of the medications, but it is easy to apply. This is how I used the meds. 



> i know they didnt come in with chytrid. i just know it. the breeder is excellent and i would name them if it was allowed, but no vendor ratings.


I am not implicating anyone here - but the simple answer to this is that if you didn't directly test the frogs yourself for chytrid, then you can't be sure they don't have it. We have no idea of the prevalence of chytrid in captive dendrobatid collections, what clinical disease the fungus causes in all of the commonly available species, and whether the husbandry and temperatures we keep our frogs has any effect on the pathogenesis of the fungus if the frogs are infected.

But, I don't think that the signs you are seeing are due to a chytrid infection.

Lastly - you mentioned that the breeder was excellent. An excellent breeder can still have frogs infected with chytrid and not know it. That doesn't mean that they aren't an excellent breeder. We know very little about chytrid right now, especially in captive amphibians.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

It always concerns me when fellow froggers gives out contrary medical advise and drug suggestions when , one, medical advise has been prescribed already by a professional who has many , many cases under his belt , and two, it is unknown exactly what we are looking at. Do we know how SSD will interact with another antifungal? Or with the baytril? Why would it not be a good idea to go with the drugs prescribed, which Kristy has, and the treatment prescribed, see if it works, and if not , then maybe go in another direction. I have used a good number of drugs on my frogs in the past. Less and less as I have been very fortunate with their health. I still , to this day, after many treatments, call my brother before treating any frog with any drug. I know that we are all trying to help Kristy out, and if my brother had shown any signs of not being able to proceed with treatment recommendations I would say let's try to get another professional involved, but that was not what happened. 
I don't suggest meds for one main reason. I'm not a vet. I find it a bad idea to suggest treatments counter to what my brother prescribes, at the very least without his further consult.
Again, I know everybody's thoughts are to help out. But I had to post.

Rich


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Oz: you r right about chytrid without testing you can never be 100 percent sure. My guess would be no.but it can't be ruled out without a pcr test from pices per say. coincidence, but the medication you are calling a cream my hubby picked up for me is called lamisil AT and the active ingredient in it is 1 percent. he accidently picked up the cream when i wanted the pump spray which i have also. the lamisil treatment has proven to cure and be affective for fungal infections including chytrid. I also have amphibian ringer's solution. It just so happens that i am studying to be a vet...have been accepted and have one simple test-out to take:keyboarding....boring, but go figure. i should have done it this summer but needed time to devote to my surgery and my new collection for quarantines. minoring in zoology. so i have amphibian ringers solution at home and in the lab at school. unopened bottles. here is protocol for chytrid treatment. i want your advice. mix the creams or do this: The treatment: 10 squirts of Lamisil AT 1% pump spray (available where athletes foot medicines are sold) in 200ml of frog safe water. . Soak your frog for 5 minutes per day for 10 days. Be sure the entire frog gets covered with the solution. lamisil AT is terbinafine hydrochloride and i have it in both the cream and this treatment protocol published by steve busch for the spray pump method as well. inactive ingredients for the 1 % cream : benzyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, cetyl palmitate, isopropyl myristate, polysorbate 60, purified water, sodium hydroxide, sorbitan monostearate, sterol alcoho. 
what is good, the pump method published by steve busch, or your method of combining the ssd and this lamisil cream in your opinion. I will do this on all mints i have ...the 4 that are 12 months old. 
again, all the help is appreciated. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Rich Frye said:


> It always concerns me when fellow froggers gives out contrary medical advise and drug suggestions when , one, medical advise has been prescribed already by a professional who has many , many cases under his belt , and two, it is unknown exactly what we are looking at. Do we know how SSD will interact with another antifungal? Or with the baytril? Why would it not be a good idea to go with the drugs prescribed, which Kristy has, and the treatment prescribed, see if it works, and if not , then maybe go in another direction. I have used a good number of drugs on my frogs in the past. Less and less as I have been very fortunate with their health. I still , to this day, after many treatments, call my brother before treating any frog with any drug. I know that we are all trying to help Kristy out, and if my brother had shown any signs of not being able to proceed with treatment recommendations I would say let's try to get another professional involved, but that was not what happened.
> I don't suggest meds for one main reason. I'm not a vet. I find it a bad idea to suggest treatments counter to what my brother prescribes, at the very least without his further consult.
> Again, I know everybody's thoughts are to help out. But I had to post.
> 
> Rich


Ok both you rich and Oz have a point here ...now i need advice on what the right treatment is. I feel pulled in two directions, maybe three. dr. frye is who i consult first obviously and is the best dart medicine vet in the U.S. we all know this. Rich, I know everyone is trying to help, and thus far have been sticking to your brother advice. so my question is this. or maybe advice for that matter as everyone has their own advice and they both have valid points. should i do the baytril and ssd which i have planned on or add in the lamisil treatment? sigh. sorry. its a lot to take in. I care so much for my darts. passion from both a hobby and conservation standpoint. I'm at a fork in the road. I know what dr.frye would say. he said if it was chytrid that the dart would be dead within a couple days. thats what he said. i have been putting off the lamisil treatment as a last resort if dr.frye's treatment plan didint work out cuz what else could i do? I'd have to do something, or have a dead dart or darts on my hand. Rich, Oz, can we come to an agreement on what should be done? my conscience is telling me to wait and do dr.fruyes treatment. after all he spent emails upon emails with me over this matter taking up his time as it is for the benefit of my dart thankfully. Then there is new research out. the lamisil research, which some have published it cures chytrid. but if this isnt chytrid, and bacterial from mites and maybe a combo of the sphagnum i used, who knows, dr. frye has my vote. I know you are both trying to help me. Lastly i can't insult dr.fryes treatment or judgement either. sigh again. Both of you,can you please help me make this decision if you can? Lets say i try dr.frye's treatment plan as he is the vet and if it gets worse or isnt helping i do the alternative? Does this sound like the best educated decision i can make under the circumstances. Baytril has had side effects as it is, and if overdosed can cause harm and death. So i have had to be mighty careful what i do. Using gloves, and everything between bottles not to infect them. Germ phobiac right here. You are both intelligent and both have very valid points.i'm not a vet and will never catch up with dr.fryes expertise probably never after i do graduate. At the very least i have dr.fryes meds(which everyone should have on hand for times like these) and i have the research meds as an alternative. I still am curioous to know what both your opinions are. kristy


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

My suggestion has been posted, but I'll make it very clear.
Go with the exact treatment prescribed as per my brother's , the practising vet with dart experience, instructions.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Kristy - 

The active ingredient in Lamasil is terbinafine, not tolnaftate. Still an antifungal, but different medicine. I don't have experience using it in conjunction with the SSD. I have seen the terbenafine (Lamasil) chytrid protocol, but haven't used it.

You have your treatment protocol as given by Dr. Frye. He is a vet with experience, and I respect him. I would continue on with his treatment.

I just mentioned, that to me, the lesion looked fungal in nature, and I had seen similar lesions in D. reticulatus that were treated with silver sulfadiazine and tolnaftate per the recommendation of a veterinarian boarded in zoological and wildlife medicine. You can wait and see if the lesions respond to the SSD and Baytril treatment to see if you wish to pursue an antifungal. As the most we are going off of here is photographs, it is impossible to make a complete diagnosis, just best guesses. While clinical signs and presentation can always be indicative of the infectious agent, you can't know exactly what you are dealing with without culturing the agent. 



Rich -

I don't wish to get in a pissing match with you here, or anywhere else for that matter. So I will state my peace here as you have already done. Any further discussion can be done via PM or email (you have them both).

I find it odd that above you state that:


Rich Frye said:


> I don't suggest meds for one main reason. I'm not a vet. I find it a bad idea to suggest treatments counter to what my brother prescribes, at the very least without his further consult.Rich


Yet in post #3 in this thread you state:


Rich Frye said:


> Kristi,
> I am not the vet and don't like giving out med suggestions ,
> but you have silver sulfa and it does look like it could be skin infection. The silver sulfadiazine is fairly safe and very effective against many bacterial and fungal infections.


You are correct, you are not a vet. You are the brother of a vet. 

I am also not a vet, yet. I am a third year veterinary student at Cornell University, tracking Zoological/Exotic/Wildlife medicine, with a keen interest in amphibian infectious disease. I also have a PhD in Comparative Biomedical Sciences, concentration Infectious Disease. I have taken courses in veterinary bacteriology, veterinary virology, veterinary fungology, and the immunology of infectious disease. So, in all fairness, I don't think that would qualify me as just a "fellow frogger". 

I have the utmost respect for your brother as a veterinarian. I was not questioning his treatment, just mentioning that I had experience with a similar case and offered the method of treatment used and the outcome. That is the way medicine works, and it is better for that.

Oz


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

One thing Oz, 
I oddly state in both sited/clipped posts that I am not a vet, period. Kristy asked me, specifically for my opinion, specifically. Where I give my uneducated, solicited opinion. Followed by my professional opinion as a frog breeder to contact my brother , the vet. The two posts do not conflict in any way. In fact I say I think it is a bad idea to , and don't like giving out med suggestions in _both_ posts.
With that, I am out of this one.
Good luck with your frog Kristy.

Rich


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

rich..thanks. i will keep with dr. fryes recommendations. no worries. i believe him to best the best in dart medicine. i hope it gets better, and can only have faith. will keep you posted and hopefully get some update pics tomorrow. so far, so good yeah, in the beginning i was only asking opinions until dr.frye got into the office. this is what this section is for i believe. i didn't take your opinion as a dart vet in anyway. i appreciate everyones opinion, the best opinion i can get as of now is my own opinion, and that is always to go with dr.fryes experience.

on a side note i do belive i saw those mites mentioned today on the side of the quarantine just tonight. tiny but not like the mites you might get in say a ff culture and think it to be what dr.frye said and think the dart is slowly recovering. i asked for your opinion, not to get a vet advice, but a short-term what to do until i could get in contact with him, so thank you very much. kristy


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Kristy,
What's different about the mites? Any chance you can snap a pic of them?

How's goes the treatment?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

pl259 said:


> Kristy,
> What's different about the mites? Any chance you can snap a pic of them?
> 
> How's goes the treatment?


dr.frye believes its not mites a bacterial/fungal dermatitis issue and agrees it doesnt look like chytid and highly doubts it. He is getting better. I will try and take a shot of him today. He has lost some weight, but i didnt want to overwhelm him with food so i will just work my way up the ladder so to speak on food. his sores looking better than day 1 of noticing based on the above pics. i am doing baytril and ssd treatment once a day. I noticed the others on the same cheap sphagnum have it as well....minor spot so i will have to treat them also. its really hard to even see. kristy


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Interesting bit about the spagnum. Is there any chance is contains a fertilizer? 

Glad to hear it sounds like he's improving.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

pl259 said:


> Interesting bit about the spagnum. Is there any chance is contains a fertilizer?
> 
> Glad to hear it sounds like he's improving.


AAA new zealnd for me for now on. no the sphagnum didnt have fertilizers, no messing around with that spagnum. I dont take chances, considering these darts are worth a lot at 12 months of age, and also they have good bloodlines and i'd like to conserve that...in all my darts. just a bummer this happened, as i am very keen on keeping my quarantines per asn or even better...comes with the germ phobia. lol kristy


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

keep an eye on your mints in regards to sphag. My 2 yr old female is impacted, gotta bring her in. Their entire tank is leaf litter except for 2 small areas they disturbed. They just just reached maturity too. She was extra voracious just prior  impaction doesnt seem all that common but knowing mints...just an FYI.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

nawth21 said:


> keep an eye on your mints in regards to sphag. My 2 yr old female is impacted, gotta bring her in. Their entire tank is leaf litter except for 2 small areas they disturbed. They just just reached maturity too. She was extra voracious just prior  impaction doesnt seem all that common but knowing mints...just an FYI.


they are young and have leaflitter. have never had any impaction problems. but thanks for the fyi. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

happy to say that due to dr.fryes advice the problem with the mint in question is 2x if not three times better already. thanks dr.frye. thanks rich and others. captured blurry photo, but will again tomorrow.....still trteating and they are much better. the other three mints got a small spot each...almost microscopic and a little orange spot, but have since completely recovered with the same treatment. thumbs up dr.frye. I know you mauy not list here, but hope you see this post. thanks rich for recommending me to seek your brothers advice and trying to help as well as others. kristy i think he'll make it. not out of woods. but definately better. thats is a true good sign.


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

Good to hear. I always like hearing recovery stories.
Scott


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

thank you scott. i try my hardest. do my best. follow prescribed treatments. do quarantines as best i can per asn. when i have an issue, i try to address it asap. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

here is an updated pic of him/her. it is blurry as i took through the misted quarantine conatiner, but the positive effects of the treatment can clearly be seen that it is getting better slowly. kristy









and this was the before treatment pics: 

















thanks dr.frye and rich and all the rest who have been trying to help me! i am using the baytril and the ssd in conjunction on all 4 darts right now. the other three look pretty much completely treated and done. this mint was the worse at first. he/she has clearly started gaining weight also by me sparingly adding food throughout the day as to not over stress the dart with fruit flies crawling on him/her


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Doesn't even look like the same frog which is great. Glad to see things are getting better for the little guy and for you too.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

thanks chad, yes they are beautiful mints. never was this ones growth stunted at all. just got sick. funny cuz i happed to break the same sphagnum moss in half(block) and use the other half another quarantine and the darts in the other quarantine are sick. coincidence? kristy


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm curious as to why New Zealand shpagnum is better than Chilean, considering how prominent Chytrid is in NZ and Australia? Does anyone know what the batch of Sphagnum was contaminated with?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Dane said:


> I'm curious as to why New Zealand shpagnum is better than Chilean, considering how prominent Chytrid is in NZ and Australia? Does anyone know what the batch of Sphagnum was contaminated with?


dane is this in reply to rich stating that some chilean moss had something to do with some deaths of darts a few years back? i would hope he can answer this question for you then, cuz i am not aware of anything, just that i am using AAA quality NZ moss from now on. Just not taking chances i guess. He might not have been referrring to chytrid but maybe another bacterial or fungal infection? kristy


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Sphagnum moss is at times treated with agents to destroy insects/fungi etc. This leaves the moss with chemical residues that can be harmful to amphibians in particular given that they absorb chemicals directly through their skin.

You don't need to leap to suspicion of disease when chemical contamination is a known issue with some commercial mosses.

Bill


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have had direct experience with some of the "bad" commercial mosses. I was in a bind one time and purchased some from home depot. I think I lost more than a few froglets over night.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

kyle1745 said:


> I have had direct experience with some of the "bad" commercial mosses. I was in a bind one time and purchased some from home depot. I think I lost more than a few froglets over night.


thanks kyle...finally ...someone can back me up on some bad spagnum as a warning in my opinion. Now i bet you getn the good sruff now kyle. yeah, it would have killed froglets. two problems with same moss....one with a pair of tincs...the tinc male is finally eating and getting better and the mint is now 75% better imo....so i had to just link the two together as coincidently they both were on the same brand of sphagnum. now the mint is getting back to its normal size and self, thanks to dr.frye and rich for giving me good advice to wait and ask his bro, and also the mint has only one small spot now...all the rest have healed. the tinc male i had posted in feeders to try and get him to eat, just started tonight. maybe a combonation of q-tining him and getting him off that moss, using the baytril as prescribed and using the metronidazole in hopes it would increase appetite. after a whole week and a sunken in belly i am relieved he has started eating tonight....i was practically kissing the floor for the simple fact i thought everyday without one fecal and skinny as ever ...and i mean just bones....is eating and had no trouble catching food. he was like a hungry man that hadnt ate in weeks. it was great. lol. i was jumping up and down saying "yes"! he finally ate and i feel confident he will make it through. gave him some ff and some woodlice. the woodlice got him chowing. kristy


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Kyle - I think we both had the same experience @ about the same time with North American sphagnum. That is the only type Home Depot carries. 

Any moss on the market has the potential of being "bad".



kyle1745 said:


> I have had direct experience with some of the "bad" commercial mosses. I was in a bind one time and purchased some from home depot. I think I lost more than a few froglets over night.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

so i thought it was important to update dr.frye's help on my mint terribillis fungal/bacterial infection. thumbs up dr. frye. it only got better since day one of treatment. here is a before and after pic. same mint. over twelve months old now i believe. baytril once per day was prescribed then i waited 10-15 minutes and i squirted ssd all over the dart with ssd and misted lightly to spread. before:









and getting better:









and now:



















so now is my thnak you's ..to all who tried to help. rich frye, oz, and of course dr. frye. so dr.frye thank you. Couldnt have turned out nay better IMO. he/she looks awesome. it wasnt stunted...it was sick. kristy


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## kisanjong (Sep 21, 2008)

that's great news Kristy 

the mint looks great, what a big difference.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

thank you. time, dedication to him, being extremely cautious that i do his container last at night.....all in all i feel real good about it. its dr. frye who should be thanked though. i just followed the prescribed treatment. (no more wiping sweat off my forehead wondering if he is going to make it) ....he was in horrible condition. any longer, i presumed death. any undedication from my part the same. but look at him now. 4 healthy mints. kristy


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Nicely done.

I've seen so many 'sick frog' threads over the years, I was starting to wonder if ANY ever survive their illnesses....

good job!

S


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> Nicely done.
> 
> I've seen so many 'sick frog' threads over the years, I was starting to wonder if ANY ever survive their illnesses....
> 
> ...


thank you. it takes a lot of contacting the correct vet asap and doing exactly what was prescribed and hoping with dedication for the best. look at the before pics. dr. frye said"holy cow kristy" when he first saw them. i'm proud that i could save the guy. i feel bad he was soo sick and i didnt notice and probably hid under the makeshift cocohut in quarantine and got to that point, but i'm very please with the outcome. thanks for the compliments! kristy


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Very nice, looks much much better. Congrats on a job well done.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

than you sarah, but i must give most of the credit to dr.frye and some to me for following his prescribed treatment and getting on the ball about it appreciate the compliments. kristy


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

sports_doc said:


> Nicely done.
> 
> I've seen so many 'sick frog' threads over the years, I was starting to wonder if ANY ever survive their illnesses....
> 
> ...


You'd be surprised how many do make it if caught in time and owners follow prescribed treatment. Sort of like humans.

Rich


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Rich Frye said:


> You'd be surprised how many do make it if caught in time and owners follow prescribed treatment. Sort of like humans.
> 
> Rich


 thanks rich and thanks for the advice to contact your bro. contributed to the success of the treatment and the cure. notice how the toes in the front pic were even red...now they are perfect. kristy


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

I was following this from the get go and glad it turned out ok. Good job Kristy and great looking frog!


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

afterdark said:


> I was following this from the get go and glad it turned out ok. Good job Kristy and great looking frog!


 thank you. i think its a he but still have time to wait. but is a nice looking frog. begging for food as we speak out in the open like usual kristy


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

great job!! that was a fairly fast recovery.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Julio said:


> great job!! that was a fairly fast recovery.


thanks julio!! a couple of weeks dr. frye said if things were going to get better. which they obviously did i just did everything he said to the T. i think that was a key factor when treating him/her. that it be done on time every day, at about the same time like humans meds are usually prescribed and doing it exactly as prescribed. appreciate the comments! kristy


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