# Need help about possibly sick frogs OR dominance issue



## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Hey there!
I'm quite new in the dart frog hobby and I am currently facing some issues with my Tinctorius Cobalt.

I had 5 tinctorius Cobalt, 4 froglets from the same parents (Mercure, Cigue, Belladone and Ricinus), and 1 6 months older bought separately (called Cyanure). When I introduced the froglets to the older frog "Cyanure", no issue occured whatsoever and until now everything was going well. Now that the froglets are not froglets anymore but about 8 months old, their growth has been completely different for each individual. "Ricinus" is almost as big as the oldest frog "Cyanure", "Belladone" is a bit smaller, "Mercure" and "Cigue" were tiny still. Recently "Cigue" stopped eating, kept on hiding in the same spot, and despite our efforts she died. Shortly after, Mercure started spending her time in the bath or next to it, and stopped eating too so I thought about parasites. We've put her in another tank and she still bathes and doesn't eat too much but I feel she is more lively than before. The breeder to whom we had bought the 4 froglets told me he suspects more of a dominancy issue though but I had never seen any aggressive behavior. About day after moving "Mercure", I saw the biggest of the 4 "Ricinus" assess its dominancy over the smallest left in the tank, "Belladone" (now that Cigue was dead and Mercure in another thank). Since then, it's been pushing itself on the ground, not eating, not moving, and today Belladone looks really bloated! I moved it to the quarantine tank as I believed it might be parasites as well, but I wonder if it's not just a dominancy issue. While moving it to the smaller tank, Belladone just let itself fall on the back not moving, i've put it back on its legs but it is still barely moving from it's spot, just sometimes kicking a ff that's been walking on it.
I called a vet last week that gave me a deworming treatment but I'm quite worried about all of this now and I'm not sure if they are dangerously sick or if it's a consequence of the bullying from their older sibling? Please help... I don't want to lose another frog...









Mercure the smallest one that was always in its bath. Doesn't seem like it's loosing much weight despite not eating a lot.
















Belladone, the one that looks bloated since today and quite lethargic.









Sorry for the bad quality, Ricinus the biggest of the 4 siblings, being aggressively dominant with Belladone, a day prior Belladone starting to look bloated.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

This doesn't sound good, and doesn't sound to me like the results of dominance/bullying. 

Can you fill out these questions? 

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?


2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?



3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium? 



4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)? 



5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).



6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?



7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?



8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?



9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?



10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> This doesn't sound good, and doesn't sound to me like the results of dominance/bullying.
> 
> Can you fill out these questions?
> 
> 1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?


They are Tinctorius Cobalt and I've had them since October for the oldest one and November for the 4 siblings.



fishingguy12345 said:


> 2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?


I keep them at room temperature (so without any supplemental heating and the window blinds are almost fully closed all day long so the sun light don't even hit the tank), but now that nights are getting warmer it doesn't go as low as before, so now it's usually around 25-26°C (77°F) during the day and 24°C (75°C) during the night. We use a thermometer inside and one outside to measure the room and the tank's temp.



fishingguy12345 said:


> 3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?


It's a Led Panel from Lorica, 95cm, 29 Watt, 6500-7000K it doesn't add heat and it's not directly on the upper glass.



fishingguy12345 said:


> 4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?


I keep the humidity between 80-90 and I use demineralized water. I have automated misting 3 times a day 8 seconds.



fishingguy12345 said:


> 5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).


It's a glass tank with front sliding doors, on the top there is a metal grid but it's not taking the whole tank's top it's only a band. We added two mini fans on it so the air can circulate better a few times during the day (I think 3 times a day for 30mn at a low speed).



fishingguy12345 said:


> 6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?


We give them fruit flies once a day (small and big sizes) dusted with Birkhahn vitamins (Birkhahn Vitaminpulver A-Vital, 12,90 €), if there are too many in the tank we skip a day. We bought the supplements at the same time as we got the oldest frog, so in october and it's good until 2022. We keep it at room temperature in a dry place, there was no specific indications on how to store it. There used to be springtails but we ran out of them and they are out of stock for a while in the only shops that have reptilian/amphibian food so we ordered online and are waiting to receive it.



fishingguy12345 said:


> 7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?


I separated the two smallest from the two biggest as it seemed one of the biggest frogs was bullying the smaller ones.



fishingguy12345 said:


> 8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?


Other than the fact one is suddenly looking like a balloon and not moving and one discovered a passion for baths, they all act pretty normal to me.



fishingguy12345 said:


> 9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?


I touched one frog, the smallest one because when i tried to move it from the big tank to the smaller one she jumped on me instead of the little box and fell on the floor so i had to touch it at some point, but other than that I always clean my hand before anything and avoid touching them. There's no cleansers or anything close to the tank.



fishingguy12345 said:


> 10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


It's the night so everything is dark but I'll add pictures tomorrow when they are out and there's more light!
Thanks for taking the time to help, I really appreciate it!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Sink that dish deeper in the substrate and pack it tight around so that it creates a cut out to return it to if you are going to remove it to scald and wipe out if it needs to.

Sterilze a smooth, good sized pebble and place it at the interior lip so that the frog can uptake while ailing in a comfortable repose position.

The blend line of a typical puddle of water and terra detail is not like the wall of a dish. 

This will enable the weakened frog in ergo.

A splash of pedialyte in the water would be a plus especially if he is taking lengthy soaks in RO water which could tinker with absorption. I do not use water with absent or extremely low tds when rehabing amphibians.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Basic support stuff, not a treatment or diagnosis. You need a veterinarian for that.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

You'll need to go to a vet that specializes in amphibians/reptiles, or has advanced knowledge of them.

The supplement powder you're using is one I've never heard of, and, from what I can tell, isn't an amphibian focused supplement. 

Most of us use Repashy calcium plus as our supplement. Dust the feeders at every feeding.


You didn't post any pictures of the tank. Can you?


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Kmc said:


> Sink that dish deeper in the substrate and pack it tight around so that it creates a cut out to return it to if you are going to remove it to scald and wipe out if it needs to.
> 
> Sterilze a smooth, good sized pebble and place it at the interior lip so that the frog can uptake while ailing in a comfortable repose position.
> 
> The blend line of a typical puddle of water and terra detail is not like the wall of a dish.


That's not their usual puddle on the picture, it's the spare one I had that I've put in the smaller "quarantine" tank. The breeder told me to remove it completely anyway cause if they are sick it might worsen their condition? I will follow your recommendations though.



Kmc said:


> A splash of pedialyte in the water would be a plus especially if he is taking lengthy soaks in RO water which could tinker with absorption. I do not use water with absent or extremely low tds when rehabing amphibians.


Pedialyte doesn't exist where I live, is it something that can be found in pharmacies? When starting I had read it was better to put demineralized water for them, but if I understood well you suggest to use regular water? Why does it makes a difference? I'm just wondering


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> You'll need to go to a vet that specializes in amphibians/reptiles, or has advanced knowledge of them.
> 
> The supplement powder you're using is one I've never heard of, and, from what I can tell, isn't an amphibian focused supplement.
> 
> Most of us use Repashy calcium plus as our supplement. Dust the feeders at every feeding.


I'm calling the vet this morning, now that it's quite clear it's more of a sickness than an effect of bullying.

The supplement powder is the one that's most popular in germany and switzerland (where I live) for amphibians and has been recommended by breeders I met at fairs. Can you recommend which Repashy product is interesting? I've been on their website but the frog supplement only contains vit A, the Ben's Jungle one is multivitamin.

UPDATE: The vet keeps asking advices to a zoo, the same zoo to let a couple of Red Lehmanni my breeder gave them die. Also last time they told me we'd run a fecal test if I noticed anything getting worse and now they told me it's useless to treat them or test them I should just give them a hot bath for 30mn and isolate them and in the same time redo my terrarium completely with brand new material, substrate, leaves, plants, wood etc. Which is a no for me, I don't have the money to start a brand new terrarium of that size without being sure the bloat has been caused by parasites. I contacted another vet to see what's their thought on the matter. I feel pretty much on my own, it's not a popular hobby where I live and even vets specialized in amphibians and reptiles have little knowledge of dart frogs I feel...


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> You didn't post any pictures of the tank. Can you?


Here are pictures of the tank. I didn't take pictures of the smaller tank I used to put the two I suspect to be sick in, do you need it as well? I used to have a water point so they could bath if needed but after I suspected at least one to be sick I removed it so it wouldn't spread through the water. As it's misted automatically during the day I did not put it back yet. Also I'm replacing the leaves litter so right now I mostly have moss until the leaves are ready. I hope it's not a problem to mostly have moss except it's less natural for them?


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Might just be me, but is the ground 100% moss (vs. leaf litter)? I am thinking the darts may have been kept too wet which resulted in parasites, fungus or rot issues. Swelling makes me think possibly related to GI issues. Thoughts?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Hopefully this second vet is more competent. A fecal on the frogs, and/or a necropsy (more expensive, but probably will give more information) would be prudent.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

eMCRay said:


> Might just be me, but is the ground 100% moss (vs. leaf litter)? I am thinking the darts may have been kept too wet which resulted in parasites, fungus or rot issues. Swelling makes me think possibly related to GI issues. Thoughts?


It is mostly moss even if the moss is quite dry now (it's not even green anymore and doesn't grow) but it's not 100% moss either. I left some leaves and some other parts are simply "nude" if I can put it that way. I had planned on changing the leaves that's why it's a bit empty at the moment but then I got caught up in the frogs current dominancy and illness situation. I'm not working today so will go in the forest find some leaves i could sterilized so I can replace the litter, and also add litter in the small terrarium I quickly prepared for the quarantined frogs. I might not have put enough leaves anyway from the start. I don't know what is too much and what is enough :/ I'll put a decent amount this time to make sure it's enough, but can it rot if there are too many? 
I do also suspect GI issues, I thought parasites, I'm not sure what other illness exist in dart frogs. I sent pictures to another vet, I'm still waiting for their input... fingers crossed!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Your breeder was mistaken. Demineralized water is used because it doesnt cause staining on glass or clog automated misters.

That is it. No other health reason.

Sick frogs can have impaired ability to maintain homeostasis. The water should be supportive. Not RO or distilled.

Unlimited access to supportive uptake water is an important part of how to keep them alive when they are sick.

Its troubling as I am thinking another myth is getting started per what 'breeders' say and this one is about _water._


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Kmc said:


> Your breeder was mistaken. Demineralized water is used because it doesnt cause staining on glass or clog automated misters.
> 
> That is it. No other health reason.
> 
> ...


Oh I didn't know that! Would tap water work as well or should I buy bottled water? I'll change the water immediatly, I hope it'll help them!

It wasn't the breeder who told me, I read it online on another forum, it was a random guy I think.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Tap water can be used if you treat it with a dechlorinator. I use Prime brand when I use tap. We have a good source here and the pipes are safe.


I use bottled drinking water too, especiall for small applications, with no illusions about its marketed purity.

I choose a drinking water that has transparency of source and regular quality readings.

I do not know of your waters in your country.

The other choice is to add the elements to the RO with a reconstitution product. Kents.

*Also Joshes Frogs has an electrolyte product I think its called Amphibian Aid thats a concentrate version of Amphibian Ringers.

Careful provision of hydration, energy expenditure and stress reduction is critical.

I learned this, in its beginning, rehabbing wild caught dart frogs and other species that came in sickened, weak.


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

IDK, maybe I missed it but the frogs should be separated. It sounds like classic dominance issues. YMMV.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Bully=Stressor. Lowered resistance. Sickness.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Kmc said:


> Tap water can be used if you treat it with a dechlorinator. I use Prime brand when I use tap. We have a good source here and the pipes are safe.
> 
> 
> I use bottled drinking water too, especiall for small applications, with no illusions about its marketed purity.
> ...


Oh it's interesting to know Josh's frogs sells an electrolyte product! I'll definitely look at that! I'll check also the bottled drinking water here, tap water is pretty good here too but indeed it still has some chlore so I'd need to look into that. Thanks a lot for your advices! It's really great!


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

jeffkruse said:


> IDK, maybe I missed it but the frogs should be separated. It sounds like classic dominance issues. YMMV.


I've put the two smallest ones (the one that started to be super bloated and lethargic and the one that is constantly bathing) in the spare tank I had, it's not the greatest because I did not think I'd use it again but I've just added some leaves, I spray it multiple times a day and there is a few hiding spots in it. It lacks a bit of plants I added some but they need to grow now. The one that baths a lot is more lively than when it was in the bigger tank, but it keeps on bathing for long periods of time.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

*UPDATE: *The two sick frogs haven't been eating for the whole day yesterday, the smallest one spent the evening in the water (I used some bottled drinking water that is also recommended for baby humans), i've put some drops on the back of the bloated one as well. Today I feel the smallest is looking thiner than before but she tried to eat a little this morning. I am going to the pharmacy to try to make a ringer solution (NaCl : 6.6g / NaHCO3 : 0.2g / CaCl2 : 0.15g / KCl : 0.15g / QSP 1L purified water) hoping it will help.

I have been at the second vet I found in urgency, she punctured the bloated frog and extracted a significant amount of liquid. For now, the frog is still very lethargic. I'm scared to take it out of its wet paper sheet by hand because when I touch it it just doesn't move at all and I'm scared it'll stress it too much. Then we ran a fecal test and bingo, they have parasites and we know which type. So I have to continue with the ivermectin dewormer, but not wait 14 days like the first vet said but 7 days and try to give it as a bath this time (if they are too stressed about she said I can keep putting a few drops on their backs), in addition to that she also gave Flagyl for a 30mn bath I'll do tonight, and she also said I need to scrap the two tanks and redo them, and if I can and it doesn't stress the frogs too much, I should do it every week until they are cured (about a month). But I'm scared it'll be too much moving out and in and out and in for the frogs! She also gave me a isotonic solution to replace their normal water and she confirmed the ringer solution quantities I had were correct so I can still do that. Then she also gave me something - but I'm not sure how to administrate it - it's Emeraid IC Carnivore, it's an "intensive care nutrition for debilitated carnivores and insectivores" that will provide extra energetic food specially designed for exotic animals (including amphibians) that are extra skinny due to a disease or that don't eat enough due to a disease. Basically it's a powder you need to mix with water and then give it in the mouth of your frogs or in a little bowl and they just come lick it. But I'm pretty sure they won't even look at it... I don't know how to force it into their mouth tho, they are so tiny and it's not like a cat where you can just force open the mouth...

*QUESTION:* How many times should I clean and redo the tanks during the cure and is it possible to deinfect some of my plants? I'm heartbroken to see them all go, especially the orchids and the rare bromelia I had... Also it's frikkin' expensive so if I can save a few it would be greatly appreciated haha
And how can I feed the super energetic powder to them? Or have another way to give them extra calories as the two small one won't eat much (if not nothing for the bloated one).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Croustipatt said:


> *QUESTION:* Do you think I should ask for Panacur to treat them without running a fecal before? I saw some people use it preventively for their frogs or if they are in danger of dying and suspect parasites.
> Should I also scrap the whole tank even if I started a dewormer treatment for them (highly diluted Ivermectin, administrated on day one, day 14 and day 28. For now only day one has been done, the next day the now bloated frog got bullied and about two days after it was bloated)?


You're already shotgunning with Ivermectin. It isn't clear why another anthelmintic would be warranted. I don't know about deworming frogs, but in a range of other animals the only advantage Panacur has over Ivermectin is safety.

As for scrapping the tank, you've got a month before you'll know if the Ivermectin helps -- and you may have a frog to do a necropsy on in the meantime -- so personally I'd wait for more information. You'd have to wait until the frogs are all clear to put them back into the display viv, anyway, and who knows how long that will be.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> You're already shotgunning with Ivermectin. It isn't clear why another anthelmintic would be warranted. I don't know about deworming frogs, but in a range of other animals the only advantage Panacur has over Ivermectin is safety.
> 
> As for scrapping the tank, you've got a month before you'll know if the Ivermectin helps -- and you may have a frog to do a necropsy on in the meantime -- so personally I'd wait for more information. You'd have to wait until the frogs are all clear to put them back into the display viv, anyway, and who knows how long that will be.


I didn't see your reply, sorry!
I went to the vet, ran a fecal and turns out they are indeed infested with one type of parasite for which ivermectin is very efficient but instead of waiting 14 days I'll do it every 7 days for a months (more if it doesn't get better). She gave also flagyl to give as a 30mn bath every week, and isotonic solution to replace the water. She also gave me a syringe to puncture the bloated frog as she might bloat again (the vet punctured it and there was so much liquid inside of her limbs!). And she said to scrap the tank while doing the medication, and that if it doesn't stress out the frogs too much, that I should do it everyweek for a month. She also gave Emeraid IC Carnivore - intensive care nutrition for debiliated carnovres and insectivores - which also works on amphibians and that should help them get fatter as they won't eat much and are getting skinnier. But it's a powder that needs to be mixed with water and they either lick it or you force it into their mouth but I'm not sure I can do that? I'm not sure what other solution i have to feed frogs that won't eat and avoid them getting too thin...


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

You cant just put that in the frogs mouth. They will not swallow it down like a spoonful of nutrition. The frog needs it delivered into the stomach (not very far back, and easy to find but clearing the mouth and glottis) 
A dosing needle, piece of catheter, cannula, or other delivery tool with syringe is needed.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If I were you, i would see if they are interested in some FF maggots. I always rinse them in a miso strainer. No reason to include fetid media that may interfere with fey acceptance.

They also show up better and are easier to manipulate if you 'wipe' the maggot mound on a small disc of zucchini, etc. Cantaloupe is good too.

Its very important to keep the electrolyte solution fresh. Get a turkey baster for quick, unobtrusive replacements.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Kmc said:


> If I were you, i would see if they are interested in some FF maggots. I always rinse them in a miso strainer. No reason to include fetid media that may interfere with fey acceptance.
> 
> They also show up better and are easier to manipulate if you 'wipe' the maggot mound on a small disc of zucchini, etc. Cantaloupe is good too.
> 
> Its very important to keep the electrolyte solution fresh. Get a turkey baster for quick, unobtrusive replacements.


I thought about the FF maggots, I didn't know that we could clean them or wipe them on zucchinis! There's so much I'm learning 😂 I'll try that tonight, and if the bloated one still doesn't want to eat anything, I'll try to force her to it even if I really don't feel confident in force feeding a tiny frog that's already stressed by her illness.
I also wondered if dusting flies with the Emeraid powder instead of mixing it with water could work?

I will have the Ringers ready for tomorrow evening, let's hope it'll do her good to spend the 24h on her own in it (as per the vet's recommendations).


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

You can use other things, but a little disc of hard veg or fruit is easy duplicate and quite frankly it sounds like your little guys have enough microbial life going on. 

Keeping things neat, mitigated.

Good luck and know that you are top shelf. Im keeping you and your frogs in my prayers.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Kmc said:


> You can use other things, but a little disc of hard veg or fruit is easy duplicate and quite frankly it sounds like your little guys have enough microbial life going on.
> 
> Keeping things neat, mitigated.
> 
> Good luck and know that you are top shelf. Im keeping you and your frogs in my prayers.


Thanks a lot for your help 🙏 I'll keep you posted on the situation and will follow all your precious advices!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

You are very kind. A tea ball strainer might be easier to find. Its the same grade and will work for hydei and advanced mel larvs.


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## LovePDF (Aug 5, 2020)

Croustipatt said:


> Thanks a lot for your help 🙏 I'll keep you posted on the situation and will follow all your precious advices!


How are they doing?


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

LovePDF said:


> How are they doing?


Thanks for asking!

The two very sick ones were not eating anymore, so I had to force feed them. It wasn't easy but not impossible and yes they were stressed but not to the point of having a stroke. Finding the right amount was tough though, I gave too much on the first attempt so they were a bit "dizzy" (not moving much, hiding), the next times I gave smaller amounts. The smaller frog (Mercure) swallowed everything but the bloated one (Belladone) usually takes more time to swallow.
The bloated one is almost back to normal in terms of bloating (I believe the Ringer worked well combined with the Flagyl and Ivermectin baths) but isn't moving much and I still need to force feed it. However after 2 days of force feeding Mercure, we tried giving it fruit flies and it seems it's hunting, not heavily but still, so I'll keep on checking its progress and see if it can gain weight on its own otherwise I'll resume with the critical care.

I also scrapped the two tanks and the vet suggested I do this every week (if it doesn't stress the frogs too much) for a month so we're sure we kill every larva, eggs, and adults parasites (strongyloides). I've build temporary habitats with wet paper, bleached plants (5% bleach, 95% water for 5 minutes), baked leaves and newly bought wood so they don't fight and get stressed by an much more empty tank. For now it works, I doubt they like it very much but they hunt and eat, and roam in the tank, so until we're done with the treatment we'll keep on doing this. And in a month, if they don't have parasites anymore, we'll rebuild the natural tank with plants etc. This time I'm not buying xaxim, it's super expensive and it broke my heart to have to throw it away. 😂 If you guys know any other natural material I could use to replace xaxim for the background of the tank, let me know!


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Hi there, I think one of the frogs is dead but I'm not sure... 😔

The one that used to be bloated (Belladone) was better at some point, moving around and even hunting food. But the other frog in quarantine with it did not like the fact its sibling was now eating the same food and wrestled it. It caused a lot of stress to the newly recovered frog and she stopped eating and moving once again. We went back to force feeding and we moved it to its own tank.
My bf gave them their weekly Ivermectin bath (supposed to last one hour), but after 40mn that frog suddenly started laying on its back and somewhat convulsing. He saved it, put it back in its terra but it wouldn't move much nor eat. Since the bath, two other frogs started being stressed and inactive (one that was looking very healthy a becoming quite fat and the other one is the one that was in the quarantine tank and that wrestled the weak one). One is not hunting but eating if any ff is coming near, the other one is just not eating.
Yesterday we gave them ringer bath, hoping it would help. We saw Belladone covered is some gooey transparent matter, I realized it was shed skin the frog did not eat. I don't know if it can be harmful if left like this but when i tried take a bit off its arm it moved and I thought "okay, it's going to stress the frog even more so just don't do anything yet". We put them back in their tanks and waited until this morning to check on them. Belladone had moved and was standing better than before so I thought "progress!", then I saw the one in the first quarantine tank moving around to hid in different places and I was like "it's moving!" and then the fat one that doesn't move but still eats when ff come near it hadn't move at all. I really thought it was just stress from the treatments and being away the whole day would let them relax especially now that they all have their own quarantine tanks. But tonight it seems Belladone is dead. It's not rigid (it's more of the contrary), it was sitting properly, but it's not moving, not reacting at all when we try to open the mouth to feed it. So now I read on the forum that sometimes putting water with sugar on their backs and leave them alone could help them feel better so I'm trying that on the ones that are barely moving (or looking dead).

However I'm really worried. Could it be intoxication from the Ivermectin treatment?
It kills me to see that Belladone was back on its feet, trying to hunt sometimes successfully and now it's looking dead! It also scares me that the fat one that was super healthy is not moving anymore, I can't loose all my frogs but one! Especially after following the vets treatment and the positive results we got from the start! It breaks my heart... I don't know what to do, what it could be, I hope you can help me once again 🙏


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Personally, I'd call the vet. Weekly Ivermectin x 4 is an intense protocol compared to common recommendations, though apparently the vet thought it warranted.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Personally, I'd call the vet. Weekly Ivermectin x 4 is an intense protocol compared to common recommendations, though apparently the vet thought it warranted.


I sent an email as they are not working during the weekend and couldn't reach them, but I'll do tomorrow if they don't answer quickly. Do you think they could recover from this intense treatment or are they all going to die now? 😢


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Sorry, I forgot it is Sunday. 

If it is an overdose, I don't think there is anything you could do about it, unfortunately. I don't think that adding anything (sugar, etc) would be beneficial, since if it is an overdose the frog needs to be able to clear the drug without overloading it with anything else.

Just kind of shooting in the dark here. I use Ivermectin on mammals, and I know the margin of safety on dosing is narrow (I've killed rodents with it). Paralysis is an effect of overdose, and the typical repeat frequency is 2-3 every 10-14 days, AFAIK. I'm just a guy on the internet, though -- the vet should know best.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Sorry, I forgot it is Sunday.
> 
> If it is an overdose, I don't think there is anything you could do about it, unfortunately. I don't think that adding anything (sugar, etc) would be beneficial, since if it is an overdose the frog needs to be able to clear the drug without overloading it with anything else.
> 
> Just kind of shooting in the dark here. I use Ivermectin on mammals, and I know the margin of safety on dosing is narrow (I've killed rodents with it). Paralysis is an effect of overdose, and the typical repeat frequency is 2-3 every 10-14 days, AFAIK. I'm just a guy on the internet, though -- the vet should know best.


Maybe you're just a guy on the internet but you are experienced, maybe more than most vets! I'll wait for what she reply and int the meantime will just stop doing anything except feeding them and pray for the best...


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Croustipatt said:


> Maybe you're just a guy on the internet but you are experienced, maybe more than most vets! I'll wait for what she reply and int the meantime will just stop doing anything except feeding them and pray for the best...


How are your frogs doing? I am terribly sorry that this is happening.


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## Croustipatt (Jun 4, 2021)

Nepenthesx said:


> How are your frogs doing? I am terribly sorry that this is happening.


Hi there! Thanks for your kind words, I really appreciate all the support from fellow hobbyists on this forum, I did not expect so much kindness when I joined!
The one that looked dead was really dead. It was heartbreaking. I feel like I helped them get better only to then screw up and worsen their health...the oldest one is still hunting but he doesn't move much around the tank. The two others are almost not moving at all, still not eating on their own, but when we forcefeed them they are quite vivacious, so I have hope that time will let them eliminate any drug in their system and that they'll progressively go back to normal...
I still have hope.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Croustipatt said:


> Hi there! Thanks for your kind words, I really appreciate all the support from fellow hobbyists on this forum, I did not expect so much kindness when I joined!
> The one that looked dead was really dead. It was heartbreaking. I feel like I helped them get better only to then screw up and worsen their health...the oldest one is still hunting but he doesn't move much around the tank. The two others are almost not moving at all, still not eating on their own, but when we forcefeed them they are quite vivacious, so I have hope that time will let them eliminate any drug in their system and that they'll progressively go back to normal...
> I still have hope.


Good luck with the others! Losing pets is the very worst feeling in the world. I hope that your other little guys make a full recovery and go on to lead very healthy lives, it's obvious how much you deeply care for them.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'm sorry for the loss of your frog. It isn't your fault at all, and you are doing much more than almost anyone would do in this sort of situation. You deserve a lot of credit for how much effort you're putting in here.

Did the vet have anything to say about the downturn after the last Ivermectin bath?


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