# in situ eggs and tads



## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

With my animals, I prefer to let them operate via their own natural life cycles and instincts as much as possible, and it's my job to provide the environment under which they can do that effectively.

With that premise, does anyone have any data points that demonstrate successful _in situ_ egg and tadpole raising with certain species or subspecies but not others? Has anyone identified specific variables (bromeliad/leaf type, position; lighting; etc) that affect the outcome? 

This has recently come to interest me as my auratus have started pumping out eggs at a brisk pace, and I'd like them to complete the life cycle in the tank on their own.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

If you are able to find the tadpoles is your bromeliads, just drop a small "Hikari koi staple" in the bromeliad once a week. This will copmlete the tadpoles diet and help your tadpoles will finish their metamorphose in the tank.


There is no way you can compare in situ with captivity or trying to come as close as possible. There is more than light, weather, position,... to hold in mind. Stress for expamle or food, territory, leaf litter, waterquality,... to much for hobbyist to artificialy recreate or mimic in a tank smaller than a hop or 10 that a frog can jump. I realy respect the effort tho!



To me it sounds like you are looking for and would enjoy any Oophaga sp. allot.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

If this is really of interest to you, you need to choose species that can feed eggs. There are facultative and obligate egg feeders. The former will do it some of the time but not always and it may not be necessary for their life cycle to continue. The latter require it for their life cycle. Some Ranitomeya (but not all) are facultative egg feeders. All Oophaga (pumilio, sylvatica, histrionica, lehmanni, etc.) are obligate egg feeders. Auratus, Tincs, and Leucs do not, to the best of my knowledge, feed their tads. Stuff might randomly fall into the water that the tads are living in, but in ecosystems that are simple (no flying bugs, few microfauna species) and of the size that we tend to make them, this will probably not happen often enough for the tads to thrive consistently. If you want offspring from your Auratus, the best way is to pull the eggs and raise them as Tijl said. If you have to feed the tads in situ, you are already intervening in the process and might as well raise them outside. Most of us don't have the right kinds of vivaria for Dendrobates (the genus) tadpoles to be able to do well in the tank with the parent. If the natural process is the most important thing to you, a different species of frog would better support that goal, in my opinion.

Best of luck,

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

+1 on everything Mark said.

The _Ranitomeya_ that egg feed (facultatively) are _imitator, vanzolinii, flavovittata,_and _sirensis_. _R. amazonica/ventrimaculata_ are known to raise tads in the viv; in the wild, they engage in reproductive parasitism, a version of facultative egg-feeding.

Addendum: 


macg said:


> species or subspecies


to my knowledge, there are no subspecies of any of the frogs that are under discussion here. Seems as if reptile taxonomists have been eager to describe subspecies (although recently there've been a couple noteworthy lumpings of e.g. _Lichanura_ rosy boas and _Lampropeltis triangulum_, much to the chagrin of hobbyists), though I don't know that amphibian taxonomists have done the same.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Socratic Monologue said:


> +1 on everything Mark said.
> 
> The _Ranitomeya_ that egg feed (facultatively) are _imitator, vanzolinii, flavovittata,_and _sirensis_. _R. amazonica/ventrimaculata_ are known to raise tads in the viv; in the wild, they engage in reproductive parasitism, a version of facultative egg-feeding.
> 
> ...


Thanks again for the list of facultative egg feeders, SM!

As for "subspecies", I agree that doesn't seem to be a priority for the dart frog researchers. However, I think that locales are a functional equivalent which is why I usually try to refer to dart frog "species/morphs" rather than just species. It's usually in the context of mixing species/morphs  In our hobby, we don't have subspecies but we do want to maintain the genetic integrity of frogs that occur in particular areas or even the particular import of frogs from a particular area (since import records can be sketchy and you can't be certain that frogs from different imports are actually from the same locale). This is probably just semantics, in a way, and it is almost certainly a thread hijack (sorry), but I don't think it hurts to clarify a little bit about the nomenclature used in the hobby, at least as I understand it.

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> Thanks again for the list of facultative egg feeders, SM!
> 
> As for "subspecies", I agree that doesn't seem to be a priority for the dart frog researchers. However, I think that locales are a functional equivalent which is why I usually try to refer to dart frog "species/morphs" rather than just species. It's usually in the context of mixing species/morphs  In our hobby, we don't have subspecies but we do want to maintain the genetic integrity of frogs that occur in particular areas or even the particular import of frogs from a particular area (since import records can be sketchy and you can't be certain that frogs from different imports are actually from the same locale). This is probably just semantics, in a way, and it is almost certainly a thread hijack (sorry), but I don't think it hurts to clarify a little bit about the nomenclature used in the hobby, at least as I understand it.
> 
> Mark


I agree with all that. Including the hijack part; thank you macg.

I think tracking and maintaining the purity of locale animals is possibly even more important/interesting than simple 'functional equivalence'. As in the reptile examples I gave above, taxonomy is a dynamic process, so when a species is found to in fact contain subspecies (or even be a complex of species, as _Python curtus_ was found to be), the locale animals that we have preserved can likely be sorted into the new taxonomic groups. But if we simply keep species pure and ignore locales, a taxonomic change will make the animals we possess a conglomeration of subspecies -- or even worse, interspecific hybrids. 

Likely someone with more frog knowledge than I have can point to real cases in _Dendrobatidae_. I think _R. amazonica/ventrimaculatus_ is a relevant case, but I'd be lying if I suggested I understand that change clearly.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

No worries! 

My understanding is that the way we discuss locales with dart frogs is synonymous with subspecies: 

"When geographically separate populations of a species exhibit recognizable phenotypic differences, biologists may identify these as separate subspecies; a subspecies is a recognized local variant of a species." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies]

It may not be widely adopted terminology at the moment, but the definition fits what I've seen.

With tadpole raising, I can see now that the facultative and obligate egg feeders would be the easiest, but I'll take it as a challenge to set up an environment where non-egg feeders successfully complete a life cycle. It won't be easy, but we don't climb mountains because it's easy.


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## itzkramer (Mar 10, 2015)

My leucs have been breeding for several months now. I usually pull the eggs but every so often I let some of the eggs stay where they were laid. 

I've seen the fathers carry a few tadpoles on their backs. So far I've only had one fully develop and morph to a froglet. There are broms and film canisters available, but the lucky tadpole ended up morphing in a small rocky pond. I'm assuming the extra space and large availability of springtails, leaf litter, and wayward flies in that location has helped quite a bit.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Very cool that a leuc made it on its own!

Not surprising about the broms and film canisters. _Ranitomeya_ and _Oophaga_ deposit tads in phytotelmata (literally, ponds on plants) that we imitate with film canisters; many of these species feed their tads, so the volume of water is irrelevant to the tads' food supply. 

Others, such as leucs, deposit in relatively larger bodies of surface water so that the tads can find their own food.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

itzkramer said:


> My leucs have been breeding for several months now. I usually pull the eggs but every so often I let some of the eggs stay where they were laid.
> 
> I've seen the fathers carry a few tadpoles on their backs. So far I've only had one fully develop and morph to a froglet. There are broms and film canisters available, but the lucky tadpole ended up morphing in a small rocky pond. I'm assuming the extra space and large availability of springtails, leaf litter, and wayward flies in that location has helped quite a bit.


Awesome! I've got a small rocky pond in my auratus tank, so I'm hoping my male figures out how to successfully move some tadpoles to them. Like yours, it gets filled with fruit flies, springtails, leaves and a bit of algae growth.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. Yesterday while lowering the water level in the puddle area in the auratus tank, I saw a tadpole squiggling around. They snuck one in there on me. Based on its size, it seems fairly old, so it must have been in there for weeks without me knowing. 

It seems to be doing quite well living off the algae, fruit flies, and whatever else falls in, so I'm going to let it do its thing. Hopefully it continues to do well.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

I figure an update is in order. 

There are now 3 tads in total, with one just about to complete metamorphosis. I don't feed them anything specifically. They just eat the natural algae growth and any fruitflies that fall in. No tadpoles that have been deposited have died (that I'm aware of). 

The deposition process has been very interesting. The last deposition took over 2 days. the tadpole refused to release from the male for hours each day, even while fully submerged in water. I have some video I may be able to post at some point. The male would physically try to wipe the tad off his back, but it refused.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

macg said:


> I figure an update is in order.
> 
> There are now 3 tads in total, with one just about to complete metamorphosis. I don't feed them anything specifically. They just eat the natural algae growth and any fruitflies that fall in. No tadpoles that have been deposited have died (that I'm aware of).
> 
> The deposition process has been very interesting. The last deposition took over 2 days. the tadpole refused to release from the male for hours each day, even while fully submerged in water. I have some video I may be able to post at some point. The male would physically try to wipe the tad off his back, but it refused.


Very interessting to follow,

When I look at the photo of the tadpoles that is most developed, it looks very good! No sls, good color and no spinal problems. So congrats on the nice froglet.  It looks like this one did found everything it neeeded. This is your first offsrping?

I do have some questions and comments that imediatly comes to mind since I have tested this way of raising froglets myself. 

Do you think only the algeas and the dead flies have enougf nutrients in the to provide for healty froglets? Because the first one looks great but you have to admit that your other tadpoles have a big chance in lacking some of the nutrients they need to be completly healthy. I don't think drowned fruitflies have much of value and wonder if the algae production can keep up. Tadpoles eat realy a lot during their metamorphosis! That's why I think it is a matter of time before the limited food supply runs out in the water for other tadpoles, are you going to provide something for the tadpoles to feed on or are you going to try and continue to raise them this way? 

(It might be interesting in the future to raise some by hand and let the others grow in the tank to compare the tadpoles and their development/health.)

You said no other tadpoles have died, but 3 tadpoles in the time that passed is not a good number of tadpoles that the frogs have produced. What happened to the other tadpoles or eggs? 

Also are you going to raise these froglets until they are adults to see if they stay healty? This would be very intersting to follow and see if this experiment of raising tadpoles to froglet works or not. When I used this approach of raising tadpoles, I had the same result as you first. But after only a handfull of healty young frogs and some time passed, I only got tadpoles and froglets with problems... Later the adult frogs just stopped producing. But in my case there could have been another factor that made this way of rasing tads collapse, who knows. 

So please keep us up to date from time to time, this topic is very educational imo! 

Greets,
Tijl


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Correct, these are my first offspring. 

I really don't know if the subsequent tadpoles will lack nutrients. I think the answer to that question is what I'd like to observe. They certainly get some nutrients from the supplements I dust flies with that leaches into the water table. Maybe that's what's allowed them to develop without issues? I'm not sure. 

With regards to food availability, I actually needed to remove algae as I was afraid it was going to smother them from high growth (I guess I did interfere in that regard). I'll continue to keep my eye on it going forward. I believe I will try to continue to raise them this way. 

I certainly agree that 3 is a low number of offspring in the time that has passed. I have a few interesting observations around that. 

1) The latest 2 offspring were deposited fairly recently. It could be coincidence, it could be the male is improving his skill in care, it could be egg production decreased and then ramped up and I didn't notice. I'm not sure yet. 

2) Egg attrition is extremely high. I would say on average 3-4 eggs are laid in a clutch by the dominant female at a fairly rapid pace (every few weeks). Eggs are typically laid on what I would not consider clean leaf litter. The male regularly returns to the eggs to ensure proper moisture, and leaves behind quite a bit of soil and other material from the tank. On top of that, certain locations in the tank result in fruit flies becoming trapped in the egg jelly and dying. As a result, by the time the eggs are ready to hatch (usually 2/3 made it that far), it looks like a festering mess with nematodes ready at a hairs breath to roll in and consume an egg or hatched tadpole that dies (within 24hrs it is a writhing mass and then quickly dissipates). Live eggs/tads are never touched by the nematodes as far as I can tell. If a tadpole survived that gauntlet, and then makes it on the back of the male, it looks as though it will make it to the pool of water and continue to grow.

4) The latest clutch is the first clutch the frogs laid on a clean, live leaf. We'll see if they continue to do so.

3) Sometimes the second female sneaks a clutch in, and this confuses the male. I think he switches to caring for the second clutch, and abandons the first.

It could be that the egg to tadpole process is heavily selecting for robust offspring, or maybe they are just the lucky offspring. I'll definitely continue to raise them, and I am also very curious how they do as adults. 

Another observation I made is that color is coming in incredibly quickly. Every day the increase in color has been dramatic. It went months at a time with very little change regarding metamorphosis, and now suddenly it's like a rocket ship.


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## hiker9 (Mar 15, 2016)

Congrats! My auratus laid very small clutches until they fully matured and got the hang of things. Providing your frogs with a dedicated egg laying site like a dish of some sort under a coco hut will improve your offspring success if that is your goal. Although, I have a pair that still insist on laying on a brom leaf instead of supplied huts despite them courting , calling and spending time inside the hut??


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

hiker9 said:


> Congrats! My auratus laid very small clutches until they fully matured and got the hang of things. Providing your frogs with a dedicated egg laying site like a dish of some sort under a coco hut will improve your offspring success if that is your goal. Although, I have a pair that still insist on laying on a brom leaf instead of supplied huts despite them courting , calling and spending time inside the hut??


Thank you!

I was thinking about this, but I expect I will still have to clean the dish frequently. The pothos I have in the tank is finally taking off, so I'm hoping their affinity for leaves continues, and they can use the clean leaves from the pothos as they grow. My auratus refuse to use broms for anything. 

The froglet has emerged, and seems to be eating springtales. I dust them when I put them in, so hopefully he picks up some vitamins and minerals.









I've been trying to figure out the right embed format for youtube videos. This isn't working for some reason (first space removed from each tag):

[ youtube]D149WrRTNbk[ /youtube]
[ youtube]I2zkbUYC0jA[ /youtube]
[ youtube]3HHEnvIgEmQ[ /youtube]


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Finally figured out the proper url for posting videos. If you use the youtube shortlink (https://youtu.be) provided to you in youtube studio, it will not work.

This is the male attempting to deposit the tadpole.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Update on the froglet. Seems to be doing very well. There is some decent meat on its bones, it's active, and growing. These images are a little old, but the trend they show has continued.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

This is a disappointing post to write.

I had 2 more tadpoles in the tank puddle. One had about 1 week remaining before it left the water (front and back legs were out, and it began getting color), and one still had a month or so. They were both very active and looked good. 

Keeping the water level up in the pond area was resulting in just slightly too much saturation in the top substrate layer (my drainage layer wasn't quite as high as I would have preferred). As a result, about a month ago I started noticing a boggy smell. The frogs and tads were all doing well during this period. 

However, I know boggy smells aren't a great sign, so I finally decided it would be best to pull the tadpoles and lower the water level to dry out the substrate before my luck ran out. I created 2 tadpole rearing cups using deli cups, distilled water, a magnolia seed pod, magnolia leaves, and a single pellet of Koi Staple. 

For more background, the seed pods had been collected by me in my backyard, sterilized in an instant pot under pressure for 20-30min, and then baked in an oven until dry. 

The magnolia seed pods turn the water a tea color pretty quickly, so after it had browned, I figured it was time to add the tadpoles. I also had magnolia seed pods in the tank with the tadpole puddle, so I figured it would be similar to their original environment.

Within 24 hours of the transfer, both tadpoles had died. I don't believe this was due to trauma during the transfer. I suspect it was due to an environmental shock (though exactly what the shock was, I don't know), or magnolia seed pods placed directly into uncirculated water will leach too many chemicals for tadpoles to survive. 

It's an interesting lesson. That tank, despite its boggy smell, would have most likely been an acceptable place for those tadpoles to complete metamorphosis. 

I'd really like to hear what everyone thinks may have killed the tads so quickly.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I think you're probably right that the shock of a different water than what they were in may have been what killed them. It could also have been the stress of being moved, or a bit of both. I'm sorry you lost them.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Thanks woodswalker.

The trio just laid another set of eggs (their first set on a live, clean leaf, interestingly), so I raised the water level in the drainage layer again. Despite what seemed to me like a negative indicator (the bog smell), it's probably best if i stop meddling. The frogs like it, and the tadpoles grow very well in it. 

I'll let you know how they do.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Good. I liked following your updates, and your development pictures are really cool.


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

Hi, I'm new to the dart frog hobby and I'm enjoying it. I currently have a 12x12x18 viv with 4 R.Variabilis Borja Ridge 2.2. I bought it from an experienced breeder as he has too much. He said the viv is on the small side but it has lots of broms, and the breeder said they are one of the least hostile frogs and get along in groups. They're doing well so far. 

From what I have seen, they all love to stuff themselves in one canister and breed. I have been pulling the eggs as they don't egg feed their tadpoles, only deposition them after hatching. I haven't had any luck. So hence your post is good to see as I want to see if I can leave them there and just drop a few fish flake rather than taking them out of the viv.

Keep us updated! Thank you!


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

If you cant raise them by hand, you probably will not be able to raise them this way. Raising tadpoles by hand is no doubt the best way for raising non obligates. The numbers never lie.


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

Tijl said:


> If you cant raise them by hand, you probably will not be able to raise them this way. Raising tadpoles by hand is no doubt the best way for raising non obligates. The numbers never lie.


Only one way to find out I guess. My breeder said he once put a pair in a small viv and after a year with normal care (misting, right temperatures, supplements etc) he found little froggies when he rebuilt the viv for other uses. 

I'm aware that even hand raising doesn't guarantee 100% survival rate till out of the water, and letting them raise their own significantly lowers those chances, but I guess if I'm not going to be selling or move to a place where I can have a breeding setup then it would be fine. Obviously doesn't mean I won't do my best in providing the best environment and care for them. Hence I'm interested in this thread to see how it goes. 

Right now, our circumstances is making it difficult to give anymore than the care we're giving now. Would probably just give their babies away if by any chance in this world they produce any frogs lol.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Jand1k said:


> Only one way to find out I guess. My breeder said he once put a pair in a small viv and after a year with normal care (misting, right temperatures, supplements etc) he found little froggies when he rebuilt the viv for other uses.
> 
> I'm aware that even hand raising doesn't guarantee 100% survival rate till out of the water, and letting them raise their own significantly lowers those chances, but I guess if I'm not going to be selling or move to a place where I can have a breeding setup then it would be fine. Obviously doesn't mean I won't do my best in providing the best environment and care for them. Hence I'm interested in this thread to see how it goes.
> 
> Right now, our circumstances is making it difficult to give anymore than the care we're giving now. Would probably just give their babies away if by any chance in this world they produce any frogs lol.


I'm not saying you should raise them by hand or annything. I'm saying if raising them by hand won't work, there is 90% sure an issue with the parents or your not feeding your tadpoles correct. The other 10% is water issues..


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

That's the thing, the eggs never made it to tadpole stage, so I haven't even had the chance of feeding them. I've had 12 eggs that never made it.

And if it's the parents, I've been directed by my breeder and doing lots of research of always dusting flies every feed. I feed everyday rather than every other day. So small batch of flies everyday than big batches every other day. I found that the flies would scrape off the supplement powder on their body so if I feed every other day then they won't have any powder on them. As usual, calcium plus every feed and vit A every 4 weeks. But I've changed to vit a every 3 weeks since they started calling and laid eggs. Not sure what else to do.

The water is prepared with a bit of almond leaf. 

The eggs themselves doesn't seem to mould, they seems to be just unfertilised according to photos my breeder sent me and photos in this website.

I wonder what it could be.... I've heard people say that the first few clutches they produce they get wrong and then they learn how to do it.... I don't know.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Jand1k said:


> That's the thing, the eggs never made it to tadpole stage, so I haven't even had the chance of feeding them. I've had 12 eggs that never made it.
> 
> And if it's the parents, I've been directed by my breeder and doing lots of research of always dusting flies every feed. I feed everyday rather than every other day. So small batch of flies everyday than big batches every other day. I found that the flies would scrape off the supplement powder on their body so if I feed every other day then they won't have any powder on them. As usual, calcium plus every feed and vit A every 4 weeks. But I've changed to vit a every 3 weeks since they started calling and laid eggs. Not sure what else to do.
> 
> ...


Yes, its normal for the first clutches to be not good.  You will get there in no time with some patcience!


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Jand1k said:


> Keep us updated! Thank you!


You're very welcome!

I've got some pictures of the first froglet. It's skittish, so it's been very difficult to photograph. Overall looks good, has a belly, and is growing. Just a couple of interesting notes. This morph is microspot from UE. This offspring seems to be getting more and smaller spots than the parents. 


















Also, as previously noted, a clutch of eggs was laid on a clean leaf. Recently, I saw the male calling while being chased by the 2 females (I agree I should probably remove one female), and I didn't see him tend to the eggs again. Based on previous observation, this means he has abandoned the eggs, and they will hatch and then die. I would like to know if this distraction is due to the presence of 2 females, but I can't test that at the moment. 

I would like to see these tadpoles complete metamorphosis, so I moved the leaf to the edge of the pool. You can see that fruit flies are drawn to the eggs, get trapped, and then die. I'm very curious if this happens in nature as well. 

The picture below doesn't show this, but now, nematodes have swarmed the dead fruit flies on the eggs, but have not touched the live eggs. This is consistent with previous observations. The nematodes will probably have the dead flies cleaned up by tomorrow.


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

Congrats on the froglet, looks healthy and very beautiful. Interesting note about ff and nematodes, I got worried when that happened to mine. 

Just one thing to ask to clarify about temperature. I'm guessing you're leaving the viv temperature to rise and fall naturally at day and night? 

Almost every breeder who takes out the eggs to do it by hand has kept their eggs in around 70/75 degrees f to incubate. 

Obviously in the wild temps rise and fall, so keeping it the viv actually is closest to nature right? Is that what you do? Or do you keep the viv consistently 70h deg f?

Mine goes around 73-75 by day and fall to around 67-69 at night. Just wondering if this is a determining factor for eggs to fail to incubate/develop, or if it just slows down development.... Hmm?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Jand1k said:


> Congrats on the froglet, looks healthy and very beautiful. Interesting note about ff and nematodes, I got worried when that happened to mine.
> 
> Just one thing to ask to clarify about temperature. I'm guessing you're leaving the viv temperature to rise and fall naturally at day and night?
> 
> ...



I noticed keeping the eggs warmer, makes them develop faster. But there is also a downside. The froglets are smaller when entering land and there is more death with the tadpoles. I keep all my eggs and tadpoles on roomtemperature 19-22°c, this gives me the best result.


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

Tijl said:


> I noticed keeping the eggs warmer, makes them develop faster. But there is also a downside. The froglets are smaller when entering land and there is more death with the tadpoles. I keep all my eggs and tadpoles on roomtemperature 19-22°c, this gives me the best result.


That's great! I guess the eggs in my viv will be fine temp wise then. 

Also, is there any thread here, or websites, that shows day by day egg development? I've searched but found nothing that I specifically looking for. Just want to know exactly what to look for each day of the egg developing. Specifically looking for R.Variabilis. If there isn't then it's fine. 

Thanks again Tijl!


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Jand1k said:


> Also, is there any thread here, or websites, that shows day by day egg development? I've searched but found nothing that I specifically looking for. Just want to know exactly what to look for each day of the egg developing. Specifically looking for R.Variabilis. If there isn't then it's fine.


Try this: https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/71102-tadpole-development.html

I've found more in the past I think, but I couldn't find them at the moment.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Froglet still doing well. Skittish, so blurry pics is the best I can do, unfortunately. Overall still looks good. You can see quite a number of smaller spots developing.




















Parents keep laying eggs, and the male keeps abandoning them. I took 4 that were essentially fully developed and placed the leaf on which they were laid partially in the pool of water. 3 successfully made it out of their eggs. 2 are growing very quickly, while one is growing more slowly. I add a hikari koi pellet once a week since I think 3 is a bit much for the pool of water to sustain at the moment. Foliage in the tank is blocking out light, so algae growth has slowed.

I moved the eggs myself as I was honestly getting annoyed that the male kept abaondoning the eggs and attempting to breed again. I will probably move the second female out of the tank at some point to see if it stops the abandonment problem.


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

macg said:


> Try this: https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/71102-tadpole-development.html
> 
> I've found more in the past I think, but I couldn't find them at the moment.


Thats great! Thank you so much. 

As for my Variabilis, they've laid around 30 eggs now/4 clutches of around 7+ eggs. Yet not one has been fertilised. They've laid another clutch a few minutes before I've written this. I'm just waiting for them to get it right as apparently breeders I've talked to said that I'm supplementing correctly and keeping the environment stable for them for breeding. Let's wait and see. I'll post photos, diary etc when things actually starts moving forward. 😁👍


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

A few updates:

froglet is still doing well. The spot pattern is continuing to look very different from the parents.

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The 4 eggs I moved to the edge of the water resulted in the following:
- 4 tadpoles emerged
- 3 initially survived
* 1 grew at an incredible rate, but eventually died (picture below)
* 1 stayed very small and eventually died
* 1 grew at what I would consider a normal rate and is still alive. it is probably about to undergo metamorphosis.

This is the incredible grower. It went from normal to the picture below in less than 24hrs. I wonder if there was a hormone problem.

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Aside from that, the trio is still producing lots of eggs. I believe 2 more tadpoles were dropped off in the water, and 1 died and 1 has survived. Below is a picture of one of the females dropping a tadpole off. I wasn't aware auratus females did this.

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There are currently 2 egg clutches that were laid almost simultaneously by each female. I checked the tank today and noticed the male had a tadpole on his back.


I'm rethinking the best way to provide tadpole deposit areas for dendrobates. In the thread dedicated to in situ images/videos of frogs, I noticed some tadpoles deposited in logs and large leaves filled with water. This gave me an idea. https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/353880-situ-wild-videos-photos-thread.html

I was considering using a coconut half somehow, and then I found that frogdaddy has silicone coated coconut halves for that purpose. I don't know if they are effective or not, but I would really like to try it in the future. It would be much easier to maintain a tank without also maintaining a water level, pumps, etc. I believe a heavy misting once a week could replenish the water in the coconut half. It's on my list to try.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

This is a neat update. I appreciate the information.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks for updating!



macg said:


> Below is a picture of one of the females dropping a tadpole off. I wasn't aware auratus females did this.


Once I caught a female imitator carrying -- it is not unknown for the female imis to do so, but as far as I know it is quite rare. I wonder if (certain) captive conditions (good health leading to high egg production?) encourage this.


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

Hi guys, first of all thanks very much for your update. Second, May be best to post this here rather than make a new post as maybe you and others who have helped me by giving me advice can see what I'm going through with the eggs of my 'Borja Ridges'

https://ibb.co/8sKhWrN

As you can see from the photo, after 2/3 days the eggs that start off as black then develops to this marbled/white spots. I've been given advice to dust maybe once week with Vit A which I'll be doing now. But this is why I'm concerned that after around 7 clutches no egg has ever developed into the obvious tadpole shape. I've always supplemented them since I got them 6 months ago (calcium plus every feeding and vit a every month), so I was hoping at least 1 egg turns good. Come on! 

I'm just assuming now that they need may be a bit more supplements and a bit more time as they're "new". But I'm now losing hope and not expecting any egg to develop, at least then when 1 does develop in the future I'll be happy. Lol

Anyways, just my story for any new hobbyist that may read this in the future. These things happen I guess...


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Thanks for updating!
> 
> 
> 
> Once I caught a female imitator carrying -- it is not unknown for the female imis to do so, but as far as I know it is quite rare. I wonder if (certain) captive conditions (good health leading to high egg production?) encourage this.


Could be. Did you have 2 females present when your female imitator carried? I wonder if it is based on competition as well.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

macg said:


> Could be. Did you have 2 females present when your female imitator carried? I wonder if it is based on competition as well.


Artificially induced competition sure might play a role in odd frog behavior, but not in this case -- I keep my imitators only in pairs.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Artificially induced competition sure might play a role in odd frog behavior, but not in this case -- I keep my imitators only in pairs.


Fair enough! I saw the female sitting on new eggs again around when the tadpoles emerged; however the male ended up with one on its back. It looks almost like she released some jelly onto the egg mass though.

And then there was another new eggs mass deposited nearby around that time as well.


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