# New Exo Terra terrariums designed for dart frogs



## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Dart Frog Terrarium - Frogs & Co


Advanced Amphibian Habitat Full Glass Terrarium Built-in drain Ideal for bioactive habitats Single door for maximum viewing pleasure With patented ventilation system Monsoon ready Self-closing inlets for wire/tubing High quality stainless steel mesh Raised bottom frame Locks to prevent escape...




frogsandco.com





Exo Terra has finally came out with newer versions of their terrariums designed for dart frogs. The Insitu vivs still seem to have them beat to an extent, but they have new features that are an improvement over the standard exo terra terrariums for dart vivs. They currently only come in 2 sizes though, the 18x18x18 and the 18x18x24.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

With a _single_ door? That same FF permeable door vent? No adjustable top venting? Tubing grommets in the top (for a waterfall or Monsoon?!?)? No sloped bottom?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

The sloped bottom isn't a must have, but I would not say that this product is ANY better for dart frogs than a stock old style exo Terra is. 

I hate single door tanks, they're a pain.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> The sloped bottom isn't a must have


No, but if you're designing a specific dart viv, why wouldn't you design this in? Interferes with the waterfall, I guess. Sigh.

That misleading marketing (misleading when a product claims to do X, Y and Z to benefit a specific project when in fact X, Y and Z aren't a good way to go about that project) is not something this hobby needs any more of at this point in time.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That misleading marketing (misleading when a product claims to do X, Y and Z to benefit a specific project when in fact X, Y and Z aren't a good way to go about that project) is not something this hobby needs any more of at this point in time.


Not so much a product complaint, but on the subject of marketing, why is the guy in the video talking like he’s explaining things to a small child? Maybe says something about who they think they’re impressing with the new design.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

With all the information available, how does a company like Hagen still manage to screw that up so badly. This is just so bad I'm not sure whether to be angry or laugh!

Check it out, it comes with a tropical background!

Where in the hell did they find Jesse.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

I also love how their idea of a hardscape is a giant tree stump (that reduces usable floor space by what looks like a third or so) and another branch off to the side / front...

Frankly, it looks like I much prefer the InSitus or even the BiOrb Air...


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

I feel like these kits are always junky. I keep chameleons, and the ZooMed chameleon kit is notoriously terrible and loathed by chameleon keepers. Now it looks like darts have their own crummy kit -- they've finally hit the mainstream!

Reminds me of this Onion headline


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That same FF permeable door vent?


That front door vent is not at all the same as the previous Exos.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

fishingguy12345 said:


> The sloped bottom isn't a must have, but I would not say that this product is ANY better for dart frogs than a stock old style exo Terra is.
> 
> I hate single door tanks, they're a pain.


It comes stock with a drain built in.
The top is partially glass.
The front venting openings are considerably smaller.
All of the gaps appear to have been minimized (at least in the images).
It's not perfect, but certainly an improvement over the original Exos.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

connorology said:


> I feel like these kits are always junky. I keep chameleons, and the ZooMed chameleon kit is notoriously terrible and loathed by chameleon keepers. Now it looks like darts have their own crummy kit -- they've finally hit the mainstream!
> 
> Reminds me of this Onion headline


Eh, it's not a kit, just a glass terrarium...


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Voicing these critiques on this board is one of the most important actions we can take as serious hobbyists.

Imposter 'kits' foster dissonant husbandry in misleading new people away from real gear, and a real motive to understand environment principles.

Its a shame to dumb people down and try to keep them there.

The tank in the garage next to the Miracle Slim Rowing Bike.

I used to keep a bunch of cards from my favorite hardware store to give to people. We didnt do "Kits" but there were still things 
...


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Again though, it's just a glass terrarium, not a 'kit'. It doesn't come with substrates or backgrounds or any other assorted nonsense. You could buy all of that stuff separately I'm sure, but obviously we would choose to use the materials and techniques that we normally use.

Back in the day we had to use _GASP_ glass aquariums and modify the lids. I welcome having some of these newer options arriving that have drains installed and are better sealed (also like the Insitu vivs, for example).
That I said, I guess I'm probably still "old school" compared to some of you here on the board. I still use ABG mix, not turface or clay substrates. I hand mist in lieu of misting systems, and I don't use fans or keep obligates haha.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JPP said:


> It comes stock with a drain built in.
> The top is partially glass.
> The front venting openings are considerably smaller.
> All of the gaps appear to have been minimized (at least in the images).
> It's not perfect, but certainly an improvement over the original Exos.


The built in drain is a bottom drain meaning you can't really keep any amount of water in the bottom to help keep consistent humidity. 

Smaller front venting isn't a benefit, in my opinion, it lowers the passive venting opportunities.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JPP said:


> That front door vent is not at all the same as the previous Exos.


I agree that it looks not exactly like the old style. Is it FF proof, I wonder? Likely not, since it looks to be molded plastic, not fine screen.

FWIW, thanks for bringing this viv to our attention -- I should have expressed my appreciation before I started in on the criticism.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> The built in drain is a bottom drain meaning you can't really keep any amount of water in the bottom to help keep consistent humidity.


Well, the substrate dam is only 2" high on the shorter viv, so you'll not have room to leave a water reservoir down there anyway. Or even room for a drainage layer and the amount of ABG that people tend to use.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Chris S said:


> With all the information available, how does a company like Hagen still manage to screw that up so badly.


I figure these decisions get made by accountants, not keepers. Not that there's a shortage of rank amateurs and hacks that call themselves 'experts'.**
_
**Note that's not a dig at new people. Just self-proclaimed 'experts' who are not._



eMCRay said:


> Frankly, it looks like I much prefer the InSitus


I think InSitu's offering outclasses this. Better looking, more flexible, a little larger. I think there's still too much screen on the new Exo's lid with no way to adjust it -- my biggest gripe -- and not a fan of their proprietary design, given my preference for MistKing. 



JPP said:


> It comes stock with a drain built in.
> The top is partially glass.
> The front venting openings are considerably smaller.
> All of the gaps appear to have been minimized (at least in the images).
> It's not perfect, but certainly an improvement over the original Exos.


But taking a hard look at it, yeah it's an improvement, just disappointing they didn't develop it further.

Even if they came out with an extra large version (seems inevitable) I don't see myself upgrading because my 36" x 18" x 36" Exos are invested with some expensive modifications.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Well, the substrate dam is only 2" high on the shorter viv, so you'll not have room to leave a water reservoir down there anyway. Or even room for a drainage layer and the amount of ABG that people tend to use.


I missed that in the diagrams(I'm not good at reading diagrams....). My tanks have on average a combined 5-7" of drainage/substrate.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

None of us are saying these are BAD TANKS, but they aren't a perfect tank either.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

fishingguy12345 said:


> The built in drain is a bottom drain meaning you can't really keep any amount of water in the bottom to help keep consistent humidity.


It has a tap valve, so you can keep water in it if you like and drain it whenever you choose.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Socratic Monologue said:


> FWIW, thanks for bringing this viv to our attention -- I should have expressed my appreciation before I started in on the criticism.


Sure, no worries. I just happened to stumble across the info on Exo Terra's website yesterday, and thought it might be interesting to bring it up here.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Wow, for the most part people had nothing but negative things to say about this tank. Exo terra tanks are not great but I think they work pretty well. If I would have to look at them in person. But, if I saw two tanks sitting on a shelf I would buy the one with a partially covered top and a hole drilled in it. I would probably choose the frog one. I would probably throw out what ever drain fitting came with it and use one I liked.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Fahad said:


> I think InSitu's offering outclasses this. Better looking, more flexible, a little larger. I think there's still too much screen on the new Exo's lid with no way to adjust it -- my biggest gripe


Indeed, I agree on both counts. 
That's my biggest issue with this design as well.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

bulbophyllum said:


> Wow, for the most part people had nothing but negative things to say about this tank. Exo terra tanks are not great but I think they work pretty well. If I would have to look at them in person. But, if I saw two tanks sitting on a shelf I would buy the one with a partially covered top and a hole drilled in it. I would probably choose the frog one. I would probably throw out what ever drain fitting came with it and use one I liked.


That was my initial take on it as well. If I were to choose between the traditional exo design and this new one, I would go for the frog one too. As long as the sizes were the same, of course.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

The problem isn't that the tank isn't perfect in and of itself.

The problem is that it is marketed as being the 'Advanced Amphibian Habitat" and it is now being sold as the answer to keeping dart frogs and other amphibians. How many people are going to come to dendrobard now with dead and dying frogs because they believe the marketing? Was it really that hard to do a little bit of research and make something that is actually appropriate, or modifiable (without permanently destroying it) to be appropriate?

You need to modify this tank to make it work. In some cases, it doesn't even work properly (2" high substrate dam??), You can't use it as is for most darts, and certainly not while using a monsoon sprayer.

As someone who has numerous Exo Terra tanks - I would buy their old version and modify it before using this one. It is absolutely disingenuous to sell this as an "Advanced Amphibian Habitat". It's an poorly modified Exo Terra with a drain and a free background.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

bulbophyllum said:


> I would probably choose the frog one. I would probably throw out what ever drain fitting came with it and use one I liked.


That assumes that you can easily replace the drain fitting with a better one. It doesn't appear to be a standard size (likely done on purpose so that you can't change it for a different one).


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

There is no such thing as "perfect" when it comes to off-the-shelf dart frog tanks. For example, I think the slope under the substrate is a terrible idea and yet some of you guys champion it in the in situs. That's just fine. We all do things slightly differently and that's as it ought to be be. I think that what we like in tanks is a lot more subjective than objective and that's why I say there is no such thing as perfect for everybody. What I look for in a tank is how much do I have to modify it to be the way I want it to be. In that spirit, this seems like a step forward (though, like others, I would want to see it in person before judging). I hope that there continue to be options out there, though, so that each of us can choose what suits our needs. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, JPP!

Mark


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

I'm curious. Why is the slope under the substrate a terrible idea in your view?


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Encyclia said:


> There is no such thing as "perfect" when it comes to off-the-shelf dart frog tanks. For example, I think the slope under the substrate is a terrible idea and yet some of you guys champion it in the in situs. That's just fine. We all do things slightly differently and that's as it ought to be be. I think that what we like in tanks is a lot more subjective than objective and that's why I say there is no such thing as perfect for everybody. What I look for in a tank is how much do I have to modify it to be the way I want it to be. In that spirit, this seems like a step forward (though, like others, I would want to see it in person before judging). I hope that there continue to be options out there, though, so that each of us can choose what suits our needs. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, JPP!
> 
> Mark


Mark, the difference is that WE in the hobby know what to buy/modify/setup. This is marketed towards newcomers and the mass industry. It's not plug and play, but it is marketing as such.

It is less modifiable than before, if you ask me.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its the stores that put together the Kits. They do it for time is money reasons and also people Expect kit retail modality. 

Doing real consults can take hours and repeat client care. A retail approach to animal stuff is like learning how to bake bread by going to office depot.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Chris S said:


> The problem is that it is marketed as being the 'Advanced Amphibian Habitat" and it is now being sold as the answer to keeping dart frogs and other amphibians. How many people are going to come to dendrobard now with dead and dying frogs because they believe the marketing?


 Honestly, no more than before with the original Exo Terras. They are marketed as "Advanced Reptile Habitats" yet have frogs pictured on the packaging. People, including the both of us, still figured out how to make them work for vivarium purposes. 



Chris S said:


> As someone who has numerous Exo Terra tanks - I would buy their old version and modify it before using this one. It is absolutely disingenuous to sell this as an "Advanced Amphibian Habitat". It's an poorly modified Exo Terra with a drain and a free background.


The only mod I would personally have to make is to the top. A small piece of glass from lowes for a few dollars will solve that for me easily enough. You've mentioned the background a few times; but this new version doesn't have a background. At least it isn't shown with one from online overseas retailers currently selling it, and it isn't mentioned in the descriptions.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

JPP said:


> Honestly, no more than before with the original Exo Terras. They are marketed as "Advanced Reptile Habitats" yet have frogs pictured on the packaging. People, including the both of us, still figured out how to make them work for vivarium purposes.


They are now being marketed specifically for frogs, that is the big difference.



JPP said:


> The only mod I would personally have to make is to the top. A small piece of glass from lowes for a few dollars will solve that for me easily enough. You've mentioned the background a few times; but this new version doesn't have a background. At least it isn't shown with one from online overseas retailers currently selling it, and it isn't mentioned in the descriptions.


The background I am referring to is the cardboard that they flip around at the beginning of the video so you can use as a background...sort of a joke, sorry. You are right, most of the current kits come with that foam background.

You would need to drill holes in the plastic, potentially, to put sprayers that aren't monsoon's in. You don't have the ability to have a vent at the front anymore, just the mid-rear. Vents still need to be FF-proofed, as do the doors. Top screen is not FF proof either, so you would need to either lay something on top, or remove the top altogether. Now you have all these clips and plastic protrusions that you need to remove to lay the glass flat should you want to take that method.

To remove the screen top, you need to completely remove the tank from your stand if you don't have head room to lift it up completely as it needs to lift completely up before it can be removed from the hinge.

There are probably more things here as well.

Just the fact that you need to add a glass lid to make this a viable dart frog tank is really all that needs to be said though.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I'll give them credit for trying to improve some of the negatives with a traditional exo. Limited sizes, a single door (Yay! Flying thumbnails!), and a top that I would still replace with my own vents and glass would keep me away. Also the drain on the bottom is kind of a pain. I'm curious about that door vent. If that's fruit fly proof then they deserve some major props. The simple fact is no large scale manufacturers offer any enclosure that's fruit fly proof. Exo's remain popular and are easy for beginners to have access to. (I personally love them) This is a positive step for the hobby. Once someone new is in the door we can spend time educating them on better caging options or ways to make their exo more suited for darts.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Chris S said:


> Mark, the difference is that WE in the hobby know what to buy/modify/setup. This is marketed towards newcomers and the mass industry. It's not plug and play, but it is marketing as such.
> 
> It is less modifiable than before, if you ask me.


Everything is marketed to the masses. That's how new keepers come here all the time. It doesn't matter what tank they buy, they're not going to do it right. We see posts everyday where we have to critique this and that for newcomers. That's why we're here. To educate them. This is far better for a new keeper than an aquarium.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Chris S said:


> They are now being marketed specifically for frogs, that is the big difference.


The needs of Pipa pipa are vastly different than say and American toad. No tank is going to be suitable for all frogs.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

hansgruber7 said:


> I'm curious. Why is the slope under the substrate a terrible idea in your view?


I think it removes volume that can be used for more substrate and drainage layer. That's less volume for plant roots, less habitat for springtails/isos and it reduces the volume of standing water that can buffer against humidity changes associated with air exchange with the air outside the tank (very dry in my case). All of those things are subjective and can be mitigated in other ways, but that's how I feel about it. That's my whole point, though. I feel that way about the slope, others like it. That alone makes it impossible for the manufacturers to come up with a one-size-fits-all solution. 

Mark


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> I think it removes volume that can be used for more substrate and drainage layer. That's less volume for plant roots, less habitat for springtails/isos and it reduces the volume of standing water that can buffer against humidity changes associated with air exchange with the air outside the tank (very dry in my case). All of those things are subjective and can be mitigated in other ways, but that's how I feel about it. That's my whole point, though. I feel that way about the slope, others like it. That alone makes it impossible for the manufacturers to come up with a one-size-fits-all solution.
> 
> Mark


Yeah, I'm actually experimenting with the Altos I just got ... it's gonna be a while before frogs hit the tanks so I'm seeing what it looks like to run them with nothing but leaf litter and horticultural charcoal in the front trench for springtails.

I already use *minimal *substrate in my other tanks ... a very little Oil-Dri beneath a stack of leaf litter ... so I thought I'd see how this runs. I don't grow many plants on the ground in other tanks, and where Imitators are concerned, I'm thinking none as I expect them to be up higher anyway.

So I see your point about not having an off-the-shelf solution...to a point. If I had my way, there would be a modular system of herp vivaria on offer:

Built-in drain
Fully adjustable venting in the lids with standard-sized ports for environmental equipment (fans, misting)
False bottom modules sold separately -- Slope & Trench design for shallow substrate, Flat False for deeper substrate and reservoir. It actually wouldn't be hard to design a false bottom that you could use in either configuration.
And since choice of doors is getting too crazy, back to double doors for flying thumbnails.
There's no money in this due to economy-of-scale and price-averse hobbyists, or I'd do it myself.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Fahad said:


> Yeah, I'm actually experimenting with the Altos I just got ... it's gonna be a while before frogs hit the tanks so I'm seeing what it looks like to run them with nothing but leaf litter and horticultural charcoal in the front trench for springtails.
> 
> I already use *minimal *substrate in my other tanks ... a very little Oil-Dri beneath a stack of leaf litter ... so I thought I'd see how this runs. I don't grow many plants on the ground in other tanks, and where Imitators are concerned, I'm thinking none as I expect them to be up higher anyway.
> 
> ...


Well said. Couldn't agree more and I love your modular idea 

Mark


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Encyclia said:


> Well said. Couldn't agree more and I love your modular idea
> 
> Mark


Yep - I've built a few of my vivs with a similar degree of modularity / universality in mind (which has huge benefits - can repurpose the same infrastructure for different kinds of darts, breeder / presentation setups, etc.), but just doesn't make sense to scale up without likely cutting a LOT of corners (or making things expensive). Volume just isn't there...


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

bulbophyllum said:


> The needs of Pipa pipa are vastly different than say and American toad. No tank is going to be suitable for all frogs.


Exactly, so why make something that has permanent design choices that would prevent proper care for any thing?


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

JasonE said:


> This is far better for a new keeper than an aquarium.


If you read up on the forums, there is nothing wrong with choosing an aquarium (tank) for certain types of poison dart frogs that mainly live on the ground. For the climbing species I would also choose a real high viv


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

JasonE said:


> Everything is marketed to the masses. That's how new keepers come here all the time. It doesn't matter what tank they buy, they're not going to do it right. We see posts everyday where we have to critique this and that for newcomers. That's why we're here. To educate them. This is far better for a new keeper than an aquarium.


We see a lot of people come here for help *before* they start building, and many times, *before* they add animals. In fact, most of the posts right now are like that. With one being sold as an "all in one", I suspect people will just think it is good to go and only be landing on Dendroboard when their frogs legs are melting off, or they are so skinny they might as well already be dead. Obviously that happens as well, but I would prefer it did not and am fearful the marketing may increase it.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Robru said:


> If you read up on the forums, there is nothing wrong with choosing an aquarium (tank) for certain types of poison dart frogs that mainly live on the ground. For the climbing species I would also choose a real high viv


Almost no one on here uses a standard aquarium, in a horizontal fashion, for dart frogs, people do conversions of aquariums to set them up vertically with front opening doors.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Almost no one on here uses a standard aquarium, in a horizontal fashion, for dart frogs, people do conversions of aquariums to set them up vertically with front opening doors.


So many people, so many flavors. However?
I have encountered very few drawbacks with the use of a tank. At most, you have to put in a little more effort to be able to access everything properly.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Chris S said:


> We see a lot of people come here for help *before* they start building, and many times, *before* they add animals. In fact, most of the posts right now are like that. With one being sold as an "all in one", I suspect people will just think it is good to go and only be landing on Dendroboard when their frogs legs are melting off, or they are so skinny they might as well already be dead. Obviously that happens as well, but I would prefer it did not and am fearful the marketing may increase it.


I don't think there's any more chance of it than with any other tank. The simple thing is there are two types of new keepers. Those who research and prepare and those who buy on impulse. But I understand where you're coming from.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Robru said:


> So many people, so many flavors. However?
> I have encountered very few drawbacks with the use of a tank. At most, you have to put in a little more effort to be able to access everything properly.


To be clear I'm not bashing on aquariums. I've used 40g breeders in the past. Petco's $1 a gallon sale on tanks were lifesavers for many of us. But the simple fact is an aquarium (especially in a horizontal fashion) isn't the best way to keep frogs.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

JasonE said:


> But the simple fact is an aquarium (especially in a horizontal fashion) isn't the best way to keep frogs.


Please, explain yourself


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Ascendant physical laws of evaporation and a desire for unblocked light have made me work the other way. As far as not being a vertical conversion fan. Pieces of plexi are easy to find for mitigating moisture loss, but I am not including more finicky and humidity requiring plant species. But Ive not had difficulty with maintaining animal-centric environments humidity levels with open top glass tanks whenever i had to use them.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Robru said:


> Please, explain yourself


They're not as tall nor are they as easy to access as front-opening vivariums. I don't know what I'm really explaining here. Any front opening vivarium that can be frog secure is better than any aquarium of equal volume..


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

JasonE said:


> They're not as tall nor are they as easy to access as front-opening vivariums. I don't know what I'm really explaining here. Any front opening vivarium that can be frog secure is better than any aquarium of equal volume..


My tank is 105 gallons. Isn't that big enough with a floor space of 0.48 yd2 for frogs that mainly live on the substrate?

I agree with you that doors would simplify working inside. But compared to a tank I see no reason why the doors would be secure in a viv. It seems to me that a bottom frog would be easier to jump past the open doors of a viv than out of a tank where you can work through a small space from the top.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

But what of more unlimited lateral scope? Not arguing at all, just touching on reasons I like.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Robru said:


> My tank is 105 gallons. Isn't that big enough with a floor space of 0.48 yd2 for frogs that mainly live on the substrate?
> 
> I agree with you that doors would simplify working inside. But compared to a tank I see no reason why the doors would be secure in a viv. It seems to me that a bottom frog would be easier to jump past the open doors of a viv than out of a tank where you can work through a small space from the top.


Properly designed front opening tanks have passive ventilation built in through screens below the front door combined with ventilation at the top allows air to vent throughout the terrarium without any work from the keeper. 

my large bodied terrestrial frogs go "up" when they are disturbed, seeking shelter as high as they can get. In a top opening tank this would mean that head towards the opening of the tank.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Properly designed front opening tanks have passive ventilation built in through screens below the front door combined with ventilation at the top allows air to vent throughout the terrarium without any work from the keeper.
> 
> my large bodied terrestrial frogs go "up" when they are disturbed, seeking shelter as high as they can get. In a top opening tank this would mean that head towards the opening of the tank.


Ventilation is not rocket science, I did have to make some adjustments, in my case I installed 4 fans inside. So a little more work than the standard delivered vivs, but the operation is in principle no different. No wet windscreen and neatly maintained at 80% humidity


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Robru said:


> My tank is 105 gallons. Isn't that big enough with a floor space of 0.48 yd2 for frogs that mainly live on the substrate?
> 
> I agree with you that doors would simplify working inside. But compared to a tank I see no reason why the doors would be secure in a viv. It seems to me that a bottom frog would be easier to jump past the open doors of a viv than out of a tank where you can work through a small space from the top.


Almost no one is using aquariums this big. We're talking about new keepers and to try and make this argument is just disingenuous. These people are showing up with 10 and 20 gallon aquariums.

But if you want to compare apples to apples - I'll take a 36"x18x36 (100 gallon) front opening vivarium to any 100(ish) gallon aquarium.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I will always prefer a front opening environment, but I also want a fully permeable upper aspect that I can modify to my wants. And dimensions that include a wide scope. Ie arboreal to me is not narrow, but well, big.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Kmc said:


> I.e. arboreal to me is not narrow, but well, big.


^^^^^^^^ yes!


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

The two sizes I have now are 36" x 18" x 36" and 22" x 18" x 36". I'd like them to be larger, but I will say I'm spoiled rotten by front opening doors and lower-front venting -- it was a game changer for me. The last big frog viv I had before these was a 90 gallon aquarium and although I really liked the dimensions, it was problematic in terms of ventilation and access.

My next size is intended to be custom built -- either 4' x 2' x 3' or 4' x 2' x 2' but it's still in the planning stage ... years and years ago as a teenager I had Asian Spiny Toads in a 108 gallon tank which was 6' feet long ... watching them stalk prey in that thing was a sight to see. Who knows, maybe I'll build a six-footer.

I understand that not everyone has the space for relatively speaking, huge vivs but the experience is incredible if you can make the space.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

I would say everyone has their own experience


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Robru said:


> I would say everyone has their own experience


Do you wink that much in real life? Asking for a friend.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Fahad said:


> Do you wink that much in real life? Asking for a friend.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

That was funny. Personally i think smileys would be much, much more interesting and piercing in insight if they were replaced by tiny capuchin monkey faces in actual expressive countenances. 

Picture it. It would be excellent.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Chris S said:


> The problem is that it is marketed as being the 'Advanced Amphibian Habitat" and it is now being sold as the answer to keeping dart frogs and other amphibians.





JasonE said:


> The simple thing is there are two types of new keepers. Those who research and prepare and those who buy on impulse.


I don't have particularly strong feelings about any of the design issues myself (other than I have heard particularly negative things about the monsoon) - I do tend to agree with the assertion that a standard exo-terra would probably be better than one of these, but it could be context dependent.

My concerns were already hinted at by Chris and Jason - I don't like husbandry products that cater to the impulse buy market. The basic MO is to put a photo of the animal onto a mediocre prefab enclosure so that people who know so little they wouldn't even know where to start when picking an animal go "oh, hey, it's a kit at petco with a photo of a frog/gecko/chameleon/whatever on it, how hard could it be if I buy the kit." Best case scenario, those buyers have to spend a bunch of money after-the-fact to fix what they were doing wrong. Equally/more likely, they spend their budget on overpriced junky items designed to separate a low-information petco or petsmart shopper from as much of their money as possible, then don't fix any resultant problems, and then their animals suffer.

That's not a direct result of this product design specifically, I'm aware of that, this product just falls into a type of marketing that I believe treats exotic pets as expendable. Or at least caters to people who will treat them as expendable. How is the suburban mom with no interest in frogs who buys this for her 10 year old son going to respond when she realizes that the fruit flies can escape from the vent? Is she going to start modifying the cage herself? Or just stick the whole thing out in the garage for "a few days", forget about it, and then realize all the frogs died when the temp hit 86F?


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

connorology said:


> That's not a direct result of this product design specifically, I'm aware of that, this product just falls into a type of marketing that I believe treats exotic pets as expendable. Or at least caters to people who will treat them as expendable. How is the suburban mom with no interest in frogs who buys this for her 10 year old son going to respond when she realizes that the fruit flies can escape from the vent? Is she going to start modifying the cage herself? Or just stick the whole thing out in the garage for "a few days", forget about it, and then realize all the frogs died when the temp hit 86F?


But again, these people exist regardless of what cage they buy. Ten years ago mom would have came home with one of those acrylic "aquariums" with the slide on screen top. 

In my opinion, this cage gives that impulse buyer the best chance to succeed. You guys keep trying to focus on this idealized world where people don't buy things just because they're pretty and they want them. That's not reality. That mom scenario you laid out is reality.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

JasonE said:


> But again, these people exist regardless of what cage they buy. Ten years ago mom would have came home with one of those acrylic "aquariums" with the slide on screen top.
> 
> In my opinion, this cage gives that impulse buyer the best chance to succeed. You guys keep trying to focus on this idealized world where people don't buy things just because they're pretty and they want them. That's not reality. That mom scenario you laid out is reality.


Yeah, but just because impulsive people exist does not mean they will be impulse buying animals unless a concerted effort is made to sell animals to them as impulse buys. The candy is by the end of the aisle in stores because impulsive people will buy it if it's waved under their nose, but otherwise would not have (or at least would not have at such a high rate).

My gripe is that I believe this (and similar) products are marketed to appeal to those impulse purchasers, and get them to buy animals they would otherwise have not considered owning. What makes it worse is that these products (speaking generally now) often are not actually plug-n-play despite being marketed as such, so the impulse purchasers are not only being sold an animal they probably shouldn't have but are actively being set up for failure.

Ultimately this is speculative - I do not believe data to support/refute this is publicly available. But based on my experiences and observations in the hobby I'm pretty confident my assessments are accurate.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

At this point I really can't take anyone serious that thinks an exo-terra terrarium is a poor choice for dart frogs. It seems everyone making this argument is stuck in this completely nonsensical idea that if these "plug and play" systems didn't exist then people wouldn't buy animals on impulse. What this and other exo terrariums do is give new keepers the best chance to succeed as they learn since those impulse buyers WILL ALWAYS BE THERE regardless of what caging or supplies are offered at a store/show.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The 'impulse buyers' situation is not either/or. Yes, they will always exist, but that doesn't imply that marketing doesn't either promote or discourage that behavior. No one here said that if this marketing didn't exist that those buyers would disappear. Ignoring the subtleties of the argument doesn't make it incorrect.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

I'm sure it could be better but to say it's not an improvement isn't true either. Who wants to drill glass as an average consumer for a drain. I hate spending time to make a false bottom because if you want to make just one you end up with excess materials. Want to drill glass you need to buy the tools to do so and the cut isn't as clean as I am sure they can do. Now you need to buy grommets that the regular hardware store doesn't have (uniseals or hydroponics type). The front vent has been redesigned but if it's better time will tell. Want to get a glass top you have to measure and have somebody cut it to if you don't do it yourself. Also not all Exo Terra's are created =. If you go into a store and check them out they all have different size gaps. This is my main issue with Zoomed since they always have larger gaps then Exo Terra. One big door while making it harder to not have things escape looks better and adds less seams for small things to escape. Also this model doesn't look like it has the gap on the bottom left and right since the lock covers the one on the right and the left the glass extends all the way. I will certainly buy one and try it out.

There is no way a dart frog wouldn't thrive in this setup. It promotes people to use a drainage layer and has a partial screen top which many would argue is better than an all glass top that people do. That much screen is fine for humidity if you are promoting using a misting system with the product granted the monsoon is crap. I think this is a good thing for the hobby. This is definitely better than the all in one Chameleon kit since a medium screen enclosure isn't good for the entire life of any chameleon and cfl bulbs are trash. Also DIY drainage is the number 1 problem with the chameleon screen kits since they will flood your floor and with all sides screen soak your walls from the misting since all sides are screen. This dart frog exo terra is a far cry from the miss leading Zoomed chameleon kit. You don't even need a drainage hose in many cases. I think this will rock for things like glass frogs that need the rain setup so you can drain water easy.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

aapuzzo said:


> I hate spending time to make a false bottom because if you want to make just one you end up with excess materials.


A false bottom/drainage layer (these are two different ways to achieve the same goal, BTW) is needed with a bottom drain or without one. 



aapuzzo said:


> Want to get a glass top you have to measure and have somebody cut it to if you don't do it yourself.


Since the venting isn't adjustable (as are InSitus), a keeper may still need glass or acrylic sheets to throttle venting down.


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## Ivysaurtrainer (Jan 4, 2022)

So, I just got one of these and it seems very good for the price ($99). 

The drain seems fine. I plan to silicone around the drain on the bottom, ad some mesh to the front screen, and partially cover the top mesh with some glass.

It's much better than the old exo Terra for my dart frogs (dendrobates). Especially since I don't have to drill it or modify it nearly as much.


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