# diagnosed mycobacterium in retf



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Just wanted to post this pic. This RETF was diagnosed with an acid fast stain test with an infection caused by mycobacterium...some call it dart TB i believe. Warning: graphic photo and its sad to me. euthanized her immediately as the test proved it was a zoonotic strain to humans. I believe causing crohn's disease is what the health dept said. I can not recall all the details. She was in quarantine three floors up from my collection and always serviced last so no issues there. I just wanted to document some actual tested results by a como zoo vet herew in mn and the lab he sent the swab out to. 









Sadly i euthanized her due to its incurability(IS that a word?) and the zoonotic nature of the infection, not to mention she was in pain and kept her mouth open most of the day. 

kristy


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## tonying (Mar 6, 2008)

Very sorry to hear this. I think you did the right choice. A disease causing so much pain with so little (any?) chance of being cured, and then zoonotic to boot, not much else to do but end her pain.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

yes. sadly i knew from early on something was wrong. she was a wild caught female. chytrid tested negative. It started with a bad nose rub and went from there. continued down and into the mouth with red blisters and eventually down her chin and under her throat and up and into her eye area. some other notes on her condition. I noticed bloating spots under both armpits literally. looked like a bubble under each and on the side of her head one aqlso popped up and then her abdomen got a sore as well and bleeding anally. kristy


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## ZeFrog (Apr 9, 2009)

Sorry for your loss. I had to cringe a little at the picture as I didn't read the warning and clicked on it accidentally so it quickly became huge on my screen. Anyway, even with the graphic nature it is a good thing to have this picture because it will help us all to look for certain signs of illness. I am very sorry to hear your poor frog was infected and that you had no choice but to euthanize it. Such is a risk with wild caught animals though  I hope that the disease ended with the one frog.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Kristy,

Are you ABSOLUTELY sure that frog's condition is Zoonotic?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

kristy55303 said:


> This RETF was diagnosed with an acid fast stain test with an infection caused by mycobacterium...some call it dart TB i believe. Warning: graphic photo and its sad to me. euthanized her immediately as the test proved it was a zoonotic strain to humans. I believe causing crohn's disease is what the health dept said. I can not recall all the details.


Kristy -

There are many species of mycobacteria. Mycobacterial infections are occasionally referred to as "TB" because the causative agent of tuberculosis in humans is also a mycobacterium (_Mycobacterium tuberculosis_). 

If the only diagnostic performed was an acid fast stain, then identification down to the species level would be near impossible. This is because all mycobacteria are acid fast positive. If samples were submitted for culture/PCR, then identification down to species level may be possible - but not guaranteed. Mycobacteria can be very fastidious - and therefore difficult to culture.

As for the link to Crohn's disease, the true cause of Crohn's disease is unknown. One hypothesis is that a mycobacterium contributes to the disease, but the hypothesized agent is _Mycobacterium avium_ ssp. _paratuberculosis_ (MAP). MAP is the causative agent of Johne's disease in cattle, which causes diarrhea and wasting (similar to Crohn's - and the reason why they think it might be involved). But a lot of research is still going on to determine the true cause of Crohn's disease - and the disease process is likely multifactorial.

So - while I am not questioning your justification for euthanasia, I just wanted to point a couple of things. Sorry for the loss of your frog.

Oz


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

rozdaboff said:


> There are many species of mycobacteria. Mycobacterial infections are occasionally referred to as "TB" because the causative agent of tuberculosis in humans is also a mycobacterium (_Mycobacterium tuberculosis_).


Myco is a HUGE problem in public aquariums and zoos. Its extremely tough to kill.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

thanks for the replies all. Yes they did culture it down to the exact species level and i was told it was zoonotic. I was advised to euthanize her immediately and the others in the same quarantine enclosure. i incinerated everything from that point on. It took a matter of approx. 5 days to get the results back. it began with a nose rub...a good one...then small red blisters within the mouth. two others that came in died as well. One female died with these small blisters rather quickly and a male afterwards died with the same. this female made it much longer but the onset of it seemed to hit fast and hard. kristy

edit: phil yes it was pounded in my brain how zoonotic it was by the vet. I was told to immediately euthanize. I took photos before i did to document what it looked like first and five minutes after the photo she was humanely euthanzied.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Thats pretty creepy. . . Sorry you had to go through this Kristy.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your frogs Kristy. Take care of yourself!


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

I used gloves in everything for them while quarantined. thankfully Well it pays to be a bit OCD about germs lol. 

I am sorry for the frogs, they suffered and I feel bad, but there was nothing that could be done. I was medicating with baytril, metro, and ssd ointment for the lesions. Nothing was helping. It was a downward spiral from day 1 of receiving them. Sad but true. It was out of my hands before i had even received them. But there was no way of knowing and this is a risk you take when wild caughts are brought into your environment. 
kristy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Conley said:


> Myco is a HUGE problem in public aquariums and zoos. Its extremely tough to kill.


Actually its a "huge" problem in the pet trade (such as fish)... the main reason it gets flagged in zoos and aquaria as opposed to the pet trade is because in Zoos and aquaria necropsies are routinely performed on the animals to determine the cause of death. Necropsies are usually not routine in the pet trade.... 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kristy55303 said:


> thanks for the replies all. Yes they did culture it down to the exact species level and i was told it was zoonotic.


Did you get the correct identification of the mycobacterium? I can't find any references for M. avium or M. avium ssp infecting amphibians. If I remember correctly, its more normal to get M. marinum or M. ulcerans like agent (as well as a couple of other species) from infected amphibians and these are both known zoonotics. 

Keep in mind that M. marinum is going to be found in the substrate in your enclosures as part of the normal bacterial population and human infections can result from contact with open wounds (scratches etc) in your hands. (see Mycobacterium marinum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) 

Ed


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## dom (Sep 23, 2007)

really good information and glad you shared. I am sorry for the loss of you frog it doesnt sit well when you have to put one down, but if its for the right reasons you can only be glad that they are not suffering anymore and climbing,swimming, or hopping in froggy afterlife.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Ed said:


> Did you get the correct identification of the mycobacterium? I can't find any references for M. avium or M. avium ssp infecting amphibians. If I remember correctly, its more normal to get M. marinum or M. ulcerans like agent (as well as a couple of other species) from infected amphibians and these are both known zoonotics.
> 
> Keep in mind that M. marinum is going to be found in the substrate in your enclosures as part of the normal bacterial population and human infections can result from contact with open wounds (scratches etc) in your hands. (see Mycobacterium marinum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> Ed


thanks ed....everything was disposed of properly. they were housed in tempoaray plastic quarantines. i also used gloves during their entire quarantine. i do have open wounds on my hands unfortunately ( i broke an aquarium on my foot the other day transferring it from a top shelf to a bottom and the glass i picked up cut me, though my foot hurt the worse grrr) but i do not believe i came into direct contact with it due to how i use medical grade gloves and i take them off in a manner as not to contact skin and wash after wards just in case. Although the chance is there. For some reason i want to say the specifics of the bacteria were told to me to be ulceratis sp? and something that started with an "L"? thats off the very tip top of my memory. The vet called back with the diagnosis after the results had been faxed in to him. So it was a phone conversation rather thasn on paper for me to reference to. I'd need to have him release those record to be 100 percent accurate. I do know he said the same things you are saying about open wounds and the zoonotic nature of the disease. 
kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

dom said:


> really good information and glad you shared. I am sorry for the loss of you frog it doesnt sit well when you have to put one down, but if its for the right reasons you can only be glad that they are not suffering anymore and climbing,swimming, or hopping in froggy afterlife.


my intentions for this thread were due to a couple of things.
1. i wanted to show a documented case of it
2. It is posssible and wild caughts should be quarantined and precautions taken IMO during the quarantine time.
3. I am hoping this will encourage others to buy cb vs wild caught amphibians if possible. 
4. The zoonotic nature of this disease is a bit scary to me, and i think we need to be aware of it, take proper husbandry and care into consideration, but by all means not to say we need to think all sores on frogs are mycobactrium related, just be alert of the symptoms if at all possible. 

It happened to me, and i'm sure i am not the only one that has ever encountered an amphibian here with this disease. 

kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

same frog. few days earlier when blisters started showing in the mouth area and actually into the mouth. then it eventually spread to the top of head and eye and down the throat area as seen in pic on 1st post. this is the same frog.








placed into quarantine tub for med treatments and then back into a clean quarantine enclosure. the frog on the right never displayed symptoms whatsoever. a female died before this pic and the other male after this pic as well.
kristy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would be very comfortable saying that anyone who has stuck thier hand into a fish tank has been exposed to at least M. marinum. Infection of open cuts in fresh and salt water fish tanks is probably the primary source of M. marinum infections.. in fact its also known as "fish keeper's granuloma). While I haven't had it myself I do know several aquarists and aquaculturists that have been found to have confirmed it on biopsy and successfully treated. 

Exposure of open wounds to slow moving or stagnent water is the primary source of infection by M. ulcerans and it is common in tropical countries. 

Given that most of the enclosures we use for dendrobatids contain a water layer that has be to drained... I would say that it is probably in all of the enclosures.... 

Ed


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