# Panguana lamasi tads in viv - Update 03/06/06



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

We have a quartet of panguana lamasi that have been breeding pretty regularly for the past few months, laying eggs both on leaves and in film cannisters. Yesterday I was spraying some debris out of one of the film cannisters and it tilted back about 45 degrees and filled about 3/4 of the way with water. I was going to pour the water out and level it but decided to see what the lamasi would think of it.

Well they liked it just fine because I found a tadpole deposited in there this evening. The funny part is that I've tried to use water filled film cannisters as deposition sites for a number of my thumbs with no luck but the one time I do it on accident, I get rewarded with a tadpole. 

The moral of this story is dumb luck sometimes get rewarded :lol: 

Bill


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Yeah but what a nice reward.
later


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2005)

What would happen if you leave the tadpole in with the parents? I wouldn't figure they would eat it, but would it survive?


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

Brock Fluharty said:


> What would happen if you leave the tadpole in with the parents? I wouldn't figure they would eat it, but would it survive?


They'd do just fine in the film canisters as long as you maintained enough water in them. The tads will eat debris and dead fruitflies. I have a a'hands off" approach with my lamasi and imitators; I leave the eggs alone and "trust" that the adults will transport them, when ready, to a suitable water source.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^ i'm about to try that. i found my first 2 egg from my green legged lamasi today. i put in 6 film canisters and deli cups as possible deposition sites, i hope they use them.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Scott,

What about the size of the morphed froglet coming out of a film cannister? I'm assuming it will be pretty small compared to those that were raised in 300-500 mL of water. 

Bill


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

elmoisfive said:


> Scott,
> 
> What about the size of the morphed froglet coming out of a film cannister? I'm assuming it will be pretty small compared to those that were raised in 300-500 mL of water.
> 
> Bill


I don't let the tads get to that stage--I check the canisters every week and can gauge when they are big enough to remove. I've found that removing then too early results in a dead tadpole. I remove the "hardened" tadpoles from their film canisters after approx. three weeks to individual rearing cups and then treat as I do with my larger frogs.


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

One thing you have to remember is that in the wild most of these frogs are not being raised in large ammounts of water. A film canister is probably more space than a brom.

Congrats on the tad Bill! That is very exciting!!!!


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Scott I appreciate the clarification. I misunderstood your original post to mean you took the tads all the way in the small container in the viv. Letting them get some age prior to removal makes sense - I've had pretty good luck with panguana tads hatched in petri dishes but will leave the tad in the cannister for a bit prior to removal.

Amanda I agree that a film cannister has lots more room than many broms. Having seen how small pumilio morph out from broms, I was wondering if anyone had practical experience comparing tads of the same species raised in restricted space versus larger.

Bill










P.S. The lamasi are acting even stranger now because they just deposited 2 fertile eggs in the same film cannister above the water layer. These aren't feeder eggs (I've seen those with my imis plus I've seen a number of fertilized eggs from these guys before). Plenty of debris, dead flies for the tad to eat in the water. Guess I'll see how it all plays out.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Well the parents ended up putting 6 fertile eggs in the same cannister as the one tad, laying all of them above the water line. I decided to pull the cannister and the tad. Eggs and tad doing well.

But I decided to conduct an experiment where I placed film cannisters either at 45 or 90 degree angles half filled with water - figuring that they were still laying in spots I was not finding. Tonight I found this little guy in the 90 degree cannister. No sign of feeder eggs.










I suppose the tad has enough food there with drowned flies so I might just let this guy go the distance (unless of course the parents start filling the cannister with eggs as well).

Bill


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Latest update on 12/31/05. The parents keep depositing tads and laying eggs in the same containers. One container that was aligned vertically as opposed to tilted detached from the viv wall and crashed to the substrate - it contained the biggest tad of the lot (~ 4 weeks old) and fortunately landed butt down so I was able to rescue the tad.

Here are some pics of tads currently in the viv - they seem to be coloring up quicker than those raised by hand although it's hard to tell. The oldest is probably no more than 3 weeks old. Small compared to their hand raised counterparts but looking pretty healthy.

The parents are paying attention to the tad containing cannisters - whether that is to feed the tads or check on the development of the eggs is unclear. Putting more containers in the viv so the parents have somewhere to put the additional tadpoles.

Bill

Roughly 3 week old tadpole










Same tadpole showing his developing younger siblings










Different tadpole in different cannister - also with two developing eggs


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2005)

wow Bill! im excited!


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

these pics are great. Thanks for shareing. All that activity in the viv must be fun.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm so jealous, I want my frogs to start breeding so bad.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

The tads in the viv keep trucking along. Here's an updated pic of one of them showing how it is coloring up and popped back legs. Lots of debris in the film cannister so apologies for the pic.

Bill

Here it was at ~ 3 weeks










Here it is at ~ 7 weeks


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Wow, that really is fast!


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Jordan B said:


> Wow, that really is fast!


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Jordan B said:


> Wow, that really is fast!


Jordan,

I find that hand raised panguana tads morph out between 60-70 days post hatching so this little fellow is probably on track, albeit with some uncertainty about exact hatching date.

Here is a slightly better picture of the tad.










Bill


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

very very nice


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2006)

sweet


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

One of the parents checking on a tad this morning.

Bill


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

The tad has popped his front legs and everything seems normal but he is pretty small, perhaps skinny is the better term. Here is a picture taken tonight...the pink object is a drowned fruit fly so you have a good size comparison.










By way of contrast, here is a panguana lamasi tad raised by hand at day 54, placed in a film cannister to snap the pic for size comparison.










I have not fed the viv tad at all and can't say whether the parents have fed him during this time. I suppose it is possible that the tad survived on drowned FFs and whatever else is in the brown debris in the cannister.

Should be interesting to see how and if he comes out of the water.

Bill


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Hey Bill this whole thread is great. Thanks for taking the time to explain and show us your pictures.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

A little bit better photo showing side by side comparison of the viv raised panguana tad versus a 54 day hand raised tad.

Bill


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Out of the water today! Looking pretty good....just skinny. You can get a good sense of the size by the connector on the film cannister...this guy is tiny. Very active though. Will need some tender loving care to pull through after he's pulled from the viv.

Bill


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Congrats! That is very cool Bill.
Jordan


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Thanks. I hope he makes it. I'll try to get a side by shot of him versus a hand raised froglet once I pull him from the viv.

Bill


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Okay here is a photo comparing side by side the froglets from the viv raised tad (left) and a hand raised tad (right)...both of them came out of the water on 2-13-06. Quite a big difference in size.

Bill


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

My Bill...the difference in size is amazing. I find that very interesting since my imitator tads that I leave in the viv for the parents to raise morph faster and they, generally, come out bigger. There is not a dramatic difference in size between the ones I raise and the ones raised in the viv. 

Makes me wonder what kind of parents the panguana lamasi adults are. 

Thanks for the great pic's!

Kristen


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Kristen,

I saw little evidence of egg feeding with the panguanas though they did lay some eggs in the occupied cannisters at one point and the tads mysteriously disappeared as they got ready to hatch. I would have assumed that they were transported out by the parents but there were plenty of empty water spots and no deposited tads. Perhaps tadpole feeding??? But that occurred only once over the course of development. I can't rule out egg feeding though because the panguanas tend to be very secretive and crafty. I've only recently discovered their secret egg laying spots after searching for ~ 4 months. Of course they are probably laughing their heads off that I've found the 'decoy' sites.

So far what I've seen with my imitators (the parents are very diligent egg feeders) is that the viv raised froglets are smaller than hand raised. However my experience is limited in that regard, particularly compared to yours with imis. Also the hand raised tads get lots of room and food.

It's been an interesting experiment. Thanks for the comments.

Bill


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

This has been an extremely interesting topic! The tail seemed to absorb fast, though!


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Josh,

My observation is that panguana tads spend time in the water after they pop front legs and the tail is already being absorbed at that time. So by the time that they come out of the water, the tail is about half gone. 

Bill


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Here is the little guy as of March 6th. He is fattening up but still enjoys his film cannister. His 'viv' is a 24 oz. fruit fly cup complete with sphagnum moss, leaf litter, ivy and of course his film cannister that he was raised in....and springtails seeded in the moss. 










Now the funny thing is I was looking in the panguana viv yesterday morning to see if the parents had deposited new tads and I saw a half grown juvenile jumping across the substrate....I suppose they must have raised it in one of the small broms in there. This has got to be one of my more interesting vivs.

Bill


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