# Culturing springtails on clay



## Pumilo

I've been holding out on you guys. This experiment has been a year and a half in the making. I've been experimenting with culturing springtails on a calcium bearing clay substrate. It uses my standard recipe, but we leave out the organics, the cornstarch, and the sugar. Clay goes on the sides and the bottom of a 32 oz deli cup. I used much heavier duty deli cups, as these cultures have proven to run for a very long time. Standard cups would have too limited of a lifespan. At first, I used a very thin layer of clay around the sides, and on the bottom, of each culture. I was afraid that too thick a layer would be unharvestable. They were designed with ease of use in mind. I wanted to be able to completely invert the culture, and spank it good to release the feeders, without losing clay and destroying the culture. Soon, I saw signs (colored springtails), telling me they were actively eating the clay. I began sprinkling active baker's yeast on the sides of the cultures, instead of just the bottom. I found that the yeast would actually absorb small amounts into the clay. This encouraged more consumption of the clay. Soon, in the clay spots that were a bit thick, I realized that springtails were actually tunneling through solid clay.
Of course we had to take advantage of this, so the next cultures had thicker walls. The springtails excavated thousands of tunnels, caves, and even a tiny music hall I can hear at night. My wife thinks it's just the neighbor's stereo, but what does she know, right? 
Seriously, though, the insane network of tunnels and caves added depth. It added usable surface area, which was originally the one weak point of the system. Limited surface area meant having to maintain more cultures. With the extra depth, now they are insanely productive. I had no idea that springtails could excavate dense, heavy, firmly packed clay.
Coincidence? Maybe so, but not a one of these cultures has ever been found to have mites. Most of them are over a year old. Some of them were put aside and forgotten for over 6 months. Upon opening them, the clay was still moist, and there were still enough springtails to re-boom the cultures! This shows them to have some forgiveness for abuse.
On to the fun stuff.

Springtails on clay
https://youtu.be/sxFZfM0wxAg

Production capability
https://youtu.be/wqGb495FYyQ

Watch them flow like water
https://youtu.be/8zne8CTw2TQ

Proof of active excavation
https://youtu.be/GiZA_IHlfmg

Proof of clay consumption
https://youtu.be/QScPMDF7ka8

If only...
https://youtu.be/tqdeIYR3dgQ

This is not a for sale ad. Please keep questions and comments about the method, not about acquiring mine. There will be a sale ad very shortly.


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## Organics

I’ve got quite a bit of left over clay from your recipe, so I will definitely be trying this method out! Innovation at its finest.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Pumilo

How thick?
I've been asked how thick to spread the clay. I found approximately an average man's index finger thick, to be the ideal thickness all around the sides. The bottom you can easily go two fingers deep. If you push much deeper you may see walls collapse when you thump it to collect from. Thinner walls still produce heavily, but not insanely heavily.

Ventilation. 
With springtails, I no longer use any ventilation. My deli cups don't lose a drop of water if filled, capped, and inverted. That is pretty much zero ventilation. These 32 oz. cultures produce very heavy, are fed as much baker's yeast as two fingers can hold, every 24 to 36 hours. Even at full production, with pretty heavy feedings, I have seen zero suffocation events. I've been working with my current 39 cultures for going on a year. This gives me a pretty good group to observe before making that call. Honestly, I had been waiting for some time for the first suffocation. I was going to add filters when and if it became a problem.

Tomocerus.
Would it work with Tomocerus? I have not tested it on Tomocerus (large black, silver, or tan springtails), but I anticipate it may actually be just what we need for Tomos. If anybody recalls, I did distribute Tomocerus for a while, but discontinued them after virtually every person that tried them, failed. At the time, I wondered out loud if they may have higher calcium requirements.

Other springtails.
Would it work with others? I'm quite sure it would excel with Sinella curviseta, also known as the pink springtail. Sinella was my favorite springtail. I produced...one or two, and I feel I know their habbits pretty well.
I anticipate it would work well with Silver springtails.

Containers.
Should I use a fruit fly cup? You could, but your clay and your culture overall, will most likely outlive the lifespan of your fruit fly cup. Mine are the same size as fruit fly cups, but are much heavier duty, and made for repeated reuse.

Lawn Shrimp.
Would it work with the newer lawn shrimp in the hobby. I've never had the pleasure of working with lawn shrimp. I believe that the calcium and minerals in clay would also be helpful in forming land shrimp exoskeletons. I can't say for sure, but if anyone wants to help me with a starter culture, I'll set one up and check it.


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## Rain_Frog

Very thoughtful and thorough response, Doug! About how long would you say it took for your culture to peak? I know you said that your cultures have been running for a while, but have you noticed any "cycles" to pay attention to? 

I think this would be a very effective culturing method for people who breed mantellas and atelopus, due to the high volume of tiny froglets that emerge. 

Without getting too far off topic, for the lawn shrimp, I've been keeping them mostly on coco fiber with a layer of charcoal on the bottom but production is poor. I watched your video on swamp springtails, and since the amphipods need more moisture, it might be worth setting up clay on top of LECA or charcoal to replicate a very moist setup. I haven't tested giving them a small water pool other than what is at the bottom of the charcoal layer.


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## Kmc

Have you had opportunity to use these as a primary food item to newly morphed froglets?

The vigor that the springs are incited to eat the yeast infused clay is compelling I cant help but wonder what such an unprecedented dietary material in the gut tracts of the prey item, would have on the frogs, being such a dominant feature.

There is happenstance ingestion of soil particles, mineral bits, cellulose etc, that must occur in nature and on captive substrate and for the most part it is usually handled by the gastrointestinal mechanics of frogs, (not always though) but this is a pretty intensive input. It would become a dominant feature of ingestion, which could be passed unassimilated just like those other materials are, or not.


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## Pumilo

Rain_Frog said:


> Very thoughtful and thorough response, Doug! About how long would you say it took for your culture to peak? I know you said that your cultures have been running for a while, but have you noticed any "cycles" to pay attention to?
> 
> I think this would be a very effective culturing method for people who breed mantellas and atelopus, due to the high volume of tiny froglets that emerge.
> 
> Without getting too far off topic, for the lawn shrimp, I've been keeping them mostly on coco fiber with a layer of charcoal on the bottom but production is poor. I watched your video on swamp springtails, and since the amphipods need more moisture, it might be worth setting up clay on top of LECA or charcoal to replicate a very moist setup. I haven't tested giving them a small water pool other than what is at the bottom of the charcoal layer.


Thanks for your other frogs suggestions this would help with. Those are both outside of my experience and knowledge. Would you believe I've never seen either in person?
I am not good about keeping track of timing. Plus, it's just so variable. How many adults are you starting with? Do you feed small amounts often, or large amounts once a week? (the only answer to that one is small amounts every day or two...hand down. Once a week feedings are drastically less productive. Do you keep them at room temperature, or in the cold garage? 
What I can tell you is this. With a finger thick clay wall, you will never, no matter how hard you smack (shy of dumping the clay in the viv), over harvest to the point it takes a long time to boom again. There are multiple thousands of babies lining the interior tunnels and caves. In only a week I see numbers up so high I'm quite comfortable harvesting again. If I wait another week, it's like I never harvested at all.
You harvest these as hard and heavy as you possibly can, and there are still hundreds of breeding adults, and thousands of microscopic babies.

Your suggestion for lawn shrimp sounds quite viable, and may do better than this exact method. I do still think it would also be worth trying them exactly like these. If they happen to do well on this type of culture, it makes harvesting many times easier. Especially if you have an emergency and need to harvest heavily.
I feel like for Podura and lawn shrimp, we can really only guess if this exact method will work. If it does, gotta love the ease of harvesting.


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## Pumilo

Kmc said:


> Have you had opportunity to use these as a primary food item to newly morphed froglets?
> 
> The vigor that the springs are incited to eat the yeast infused clay is compelling I cant help but wonder what such an unprecedented dietary material in the gut tracts of the prey item, would have on the frogs, being such a dominant feature.
> 
> There is happenstance ingestion of soil particles, mineral bits, cellulose etc, that must occur in nature and on captive substrate and for the most part it is usually handled by the gastrointestinal mechanics of frogs, (not always though) but this is a pretty intensive input. It would become a dominant feature of ingestion, which could be passed unassimilated just like those other materials are, or not.


I have not used these for a primary food item for froglets. I'm afraid finances have kept me frog free since closing my glass business. I've got the vivarium and I've got bug beasties, just no [recfroggies.

I don't see it as an unprecedented dietary material. I see it as nothing more than proof that calcium bearing clay substrates do exactly what our original clay gurus told us would work. Whatever decomposes in your vivarium will eventually liquefy, and soak into the clay substrates in our vivarium. If you feed your vivarium, and I didn't say feed your frogs, then whatever grape, apple, or banana piece you tuck into the leaf litter, will soak into the clay. I don't believe for a second that I taught them to excavate. Perhaps the yeast encouraged that, but so would the apple bit in your viv. I believe all I did was supply some evidence that clay substrates do what we thought they would do.
All I've done here is to find a way to mimic the conditions we try to supply with a clay substrate. By now, calcium bearing clay substrates have proven themselves to not be harmful. Not everybody thinks they are the all to end all. Some report great breeding results without using it. However, I have never had a single person come back and tell me that for them, using a clay substrate was a mistake. Not everyone tries it, but those that do, tend to think it helps. Some pumilio keepers have absolutely raved about the difference it made in their breeding programs. 
As far as wondering if it will pass through the intestinal tract of a frog, clay is different. Clay is not a clump of fiber that doesn't break down. Clay is not a piece of sphagnum moss, completely blocking an intestine. This clay has just been eaten by a springtail, and it passes through the springtail's system just fine. This breaks up any clay consumed by the springtails into tiny, already well broken down particles.
I believe you are suggesting the possibility of becoming impacted, but I believe the basic method is already quite field proven, and in my opinion, any perceived danger is extremely minimal. Things like a piece of sphagnum moss, or a chunk of coco fiber, most likely present a much higher danger than clay that already gone through a very tiny digestive tract.


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## Kmc

There are different types of obstructions and motility complications that can occur when inert unabsorbables are ingested by animals. 

Many are accumulative and present like gastric infections, because of bacterial blooms caused by poor peristalsis, or sections becoming necrotic when blood supply is breached by the gases of bacteria - not as straightfoward as "The frog swallowed a piece of orchid bark and it gave him impaction" 

Inert particulates dont break down, they are passed, or they accumulate.

My thought though as I think i alluded to, were the non food constituents in the clay, being routinely ingested. It seems that there healthier ways to cover calcium and minerals and that we are not deficient in that area of husbandry.

The catacombs and neatness of presentation is cool, but it doesnt seem to have anything we dont already have the ability to provide, without added inert material with unknown potential.

maybe there are ants that eat significant amounts of clay? I do not know. Still I do not think they would come close to being a native mainstay for froglets.


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## Rain_Frog

It may not be necessary, but has anyone ever purposely put bakers or brewers yeast on the substrate in a frog's vivarium, like maybe under a few rocks or clay saucer for a springtail station only to feed the springtails and keep the frogs from eating them, to increase the microfauna population in the vivarium itself?


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## Stiles

this post couldnt have been any better. It was meant for me to read LoL. I found mites in my nisopds for the 1st time. I dont have the slightest clue on how tyhose little bastards got in there. thery are disgusting! I put on gloves and started popping/killing the little bastards. 

so I was VERY HAPPY to read that your recipe has never had any mites! Im going to execute your claY RECIPE 1ST THING TOMORROW!!!!! Mites make you feel as if your stuff isnt clean. I just got braND new containers for my isopods, new soil, and put threm in there. So I was blown away to see that infestation. I did all I can to make sure it doesnt spread.

Do you know where they came from? does anyone know? is it common for the isopods to get mites? what things can be done to prevent this in the future? can the mites spread to my frogs?


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## Philsuma

Grain mites enter Isopod and Springtails cxs via the fruit fly.

The escaped fruit fly enters the culture thru a gap and seeks the water / moisture to survive.

A large percentage of flies will have grain mites attached to them from their cultures - another good reason to never let your fly cxs good too long - longer than 4 weeks.

The best advice is keep your springtail and Iso cxs far away from your fly cultures or even your vivs. Don't handle your Iso and Sprg cxs after working with your fly cxs either - culture cups often have mites on the outside of the cups as well as the inside.


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## Pumilo

Rain_Frog said:


> It may not be necessary, but has anyone ever purposely put bakers or brewers yeast on the substrate in a frog's vivarium, like maybe under a few rocks or clay saucer for a springtail station only to feed the springtails and keep the frogs from eating them, to increase the microfauna population in the vivarium itself?


I do feed my vivarium, but not yeast. Once we are in the vivarium, we don't care about mites anymore. Show me a vivarium without mites, and I'll show you a hobbyist in need of a pair of glasses. 
I say I feed my vivarium, but I've also stated that I don't do feeding stations. When I feed my vivarium, I tuck half a grape, a bit of apple, small piece of banana, or a chunk of leftover, frozen jack o lantern from halloween, deeply into my leaf litter. When I feed my vivarium, the point is to push microfauna popultations. We want the bugs to find it, not the frogs. If you use any kind of substrate but my clay recipe, you can bury it in the substrate. 
When I feed a vivarium, I don't really follow a schedule. Maybe toss a piece in once or twice a month. Remember, if we don't care about mites, it opens up the feeding possibilities a lot. Open up that veggie drawer in the fridge, and grab a nasty, sliming mushroom, soft carrot, or chunk of eggplant. That's actually the best use you can possibly find for eggplant. If you don't get rid of it there, you might end up having to eat it! Seriously though, skin those veggies first to get off any residual pesticides. Organic, of course, you wouldn't need to skin them. Organic is always best.
Don't forget, save the pumpkins! https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/75084-save-pumpkins.html
That'll feed a whole frogroom of vivs for a year!
Feeding your vivarium to push the microfauna is nothing new. I know plenty of other froggers doing it.
Feeding my vivarium a live yeast product worries me a bit. I have no idea if or how a live yeast culture might react to a frog's skin.


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## Johanovich

Pumilo said:


> Lawn Shrimp.
> Would it work with the newer lawn shrimp in the hobby. I've never had the pleasure of working with lawn shrimp. I believe that the calcium and minerals in clay would also be helpful in forming land shrimp exoskeletons. I can't say for sure, but if anyone wants to help me with a starter culture, I'll set one up and check it.


The lawn shrimp I'm culturing now do seem to fare better on a substrate that has a decent amount of clay in it. The species I culture is Cryptorchestia cavimana, which is a native species here that lives on the water's edge so quite a bit different from tropical ones. Unfortunately I'm located in europe (Belgium) so I won't be able to send you a culture, but I'll be trying out your method for springtails and give the lawn shrimp a go as well.


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## Kmc

Pumilo, I did absorb your points about contact ph and frogs. Right now I have of small guys, a relinquished imitator and my group of klappenbachi. I dont think something as definitive in chemical character should be carelessly applied or shared. The actual fruit stuff is out of reach with the flies racing up and down the stick, above and below. I appreciate your notation and agree.


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## stevenacres

How long does the clay last? As in, if you built one of these and shipped it out, how long do you estimate we'd be able to harvest springs before ordering a new one?


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## Pumilo

stevenacres said:


> How long does the clay last? As in, if you built one of these and shipped it out, how long do you estimate we'd be able to harvest springs before ordering a new one?


Only time will tell. Every time you harvest springtails out, you will be exporting minuscule bits of clay. That also means the thickness of the clay walls will make a differnce, with thicker walls lasting longer. I think the optimum thickness is about a half inch thick. 
How each hobbyist chooses to run it will make a difference. If you feed your culture heavy, encouraging big populations, so you can feed lots of hungry mouths, the useful life of the culture will be shorter. If you don't need lots of springtails, and choose to feed your culture lightly and less often, it will likely last longer.
The best I can tell you is that these are all still my original test cultures. They are all over a year old, and show no signs of slowing down.


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## Pumilo

Kmc, just so you know, the reason you don't always get a direct reply from me, is because you make it clear that your mind is made up. 
I am a very different person than I was before my assault. I don't do well with stress and anxiety anymore. I used to thrive on conflict. I would argue my point quite aggressively. 
Now conflict kills me. I can't do that anymore. More often than not, I will be walking away from pointless arguments. You seemed very firm on a couple things we've talked about lately. In turn, I chose not to argue with you, but to continue on with sharing what I've learned with other dendroboarders. That way all my froggy friends can decide for themselves how they want to keep their furless, four-footed, friends.
That's not to say I won't talk to you, but when you make it clear that your mind is made up, and I know that I'm not changing mine, there's no reason to continue. There's just no reason to bring it to an argument. It's not that I'm pissed that you won't do things my way. It's just that I feel any useful part of the conversation is done.


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## Kmc

Pumilo said:


> Kmc, just so you know, the reason you don't always get a direct reply from me, is because you make it clear that your mind is made up.
> I am a very different person than I was before my assault. I don't do well with stress and anxiety anymore. I used to thrive on conflict. I would argue my point quite aggressively.
> Now conflict kills me. I can't do that anymore. More often than not, I will be walking away from pointless arguments. You seemed very firm on a couple things we've talked about lately. In turn, I chose not to argue with you, but to continue on with sharing what I've learned with other dendroboarders. That way all my froggy friends can decide for themselves how they want to keep their furless, four-footed, friends.
> That's not to say I won't talk to you, but when you make it clear that your mind is made up, and I know that I'm not changing mine, there's no reason to continue. There's just no reason to bring it to an argument. It's not that I'm pissed that you won't do things my way. It's just that I feel any useful part of the conversation is done.



I didnt think my last post reflected any unwillingness to block out your input.

This is the problem with online discussion. It is perfectly ok for both of us to have our own perspectives, i have noticed that is not the problemetic feature of differences, in "posts" but perception, where persons involved have their own filters of how they receive a statement. I tried to frame my post in a non argumentive tone - i "thought" i had accomplished it.

Posts online are incomplete, and coloured with insufficient dimension. In some circumstances, two people having a difference of opinion, will have key points in common in other areas.

You had posted a comment on another thread about how an accessible abundance of hiding areas promotes a confidence that results in more In Sight and Out behaviors. I have noticed the same, in many taxa, but you are the only person i have ever encountered whoever observed same, and spoke of it.

Very Sincerely,

Kelly


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## Kmc

I had a concern with froglets primary feeders having gut tracts packed with clay, as it isnt represented in any context of natural dietary means. 

It wasnt an opinion, but a fact. Its not a "firmness" on my part but an unexamined aspect.


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## Pumilo

Kmc said:


> I didnt think my last post reflected any unwillingness to block out your input.
> 
> This is the problem with online discussion. It is perfectly ok for both of us to have our own perspectives, i have noticed that is not the problemetic feature of differences, in "posts" but perception, where persons involved have their own filters of how they receive a statement. I tried to frame my post in a non argumentive tone - i "thought" i had accomplished it.
> 
> Posts online are incomplete, and coloured with insufficient dimension. In some circumstances, two people having a difference of opinion, will have key points in common in other areas.
> 
> You had posted a comment on another thread about how an accessible abundance of hiding areas promotes a confidence that results in more In Sight and Out behaviors. I have noticed the same, in many taxa, but you are the only person i have ever encountered whoever observed same, and spoke of it.
> 
> Very Sincerely,
> 
> Kelly


I didn't have any problem with your last post. I also didn't mean to imply you were arguing. However, when 2 people have already come to their own conclusions and they directly oppose each other, I only see that conversation quickly becoming an argument.

I haven't been around in a while, but I used to talk about how important cover is, all the time. It's one of the reasons I push deep leaf litter beds. Perhaps the subject hasn't come up here in a while, but many other froggers have talked about it too. Honestly, the subject used to come up all the time. We used to get hobbyists who say their frog hides all the time so they are thinking about stripping out all the hides. If your frog hides all the time, give him more places to hide. On a shy frog, more hides make them bolder about every time, but you obviously know this. Start stripping hides out of a shy frog's home, and you are more likely to stress him to death.


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## Pumilo

If you really want to find out about the benefits of clay, research starts here.

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html


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## Kmc

Im not able to find anything on clay being a part of the diet of froglets especially.

There are species of frogs that actually seasonally seek out wet clay to absorb mineral and calcium chemistry by osmosis, i have in the past before my dendroboard joining tried to re contact it, to know avail.

But nowhere do i find the actual ingestion of clay - even by proxy of insect ingest, being discussed.


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## Kmc

I feel this is an important point, and separate from its benefits as a substrate.


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## Socratic Monologue

I poked around Google Scholar for any insight into whether the prey animals of Dendrobatids might themselves ingest clay. I didn't find anything, but I did find numerous references to the fact that tropical terrestrial hymenoptera do a lot of living in clay, excavating their tunnel habitats, etc. Likely they at least pick up a lot of it.



Kmc said:


> The vigor that the springs are incited to eat the yeast infused clay is compelling I cant help but wonder what such an unprecedented dietary material in the gut tracts of the prey item, would have on the frogs, being such a dominant feature.
> 
> There is happenstance ingestion of soil particles, mineral bits, cellulose etc, that must occur in nature and on captive substrate and for the most part it is usually handled by the gastrointestinal mechanics of frogs, (not always though) but this is a pretty intensive input. It would become a dominant feature of ingestion, which could be passed unassimilated just like those other materials are, or not.


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## Kmc

Socratic Monologue said:


> I poked around Google Scholar for any insight into whether the prey animals of Dendrobatids might themselves ingest clay. I didn't find anything, but I did find numerous references to the fact that tropical terrestrial hymenoptera do a lot of living in clay, excavating their tunnel habitats, etc. Likely they at least pick up a lot of it.



Does this information make you feel comfortable enough to feed froglets a staple of organisms with elongated gut tracts full of clay? Simply because it makes a good substrate and has calcium, thats available through other successful means?

It is vitally important to not hitchhike unrelated aspects of enamoring feature in husbandry. I feel it is important in a principle above personality way to examine this aspect and not blindly connect factors.


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## Philsuma

There should never be a 'staple' of Springtails. They are a supplemental feeder for everyone that I know of in the hobby.


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## Pumilo

Kmc said:


> I feel this is an important point, and separate from its benefits as a substrate.


That's ok, you don't have to use it. I'm not here to talk you into anything. Over the years I've worked/played with my frogs, vivs, and plants, and I share what's worked for me, here. You can read them or not. You can use my ideas or not. That's up to you. 



Friends, there is nothing that different here. I took what we do in our vivs, and put it in our cultures. We all know that clay substrates were created to have bits of clay eaten by the frogs, in addition to absorbing it through their skin. Ed and I have talked about frogs eating bits of clay, so many times here. Still, if anyone has any qualms about using it, then you should probably hold off.
Plenty of people have tried my clay substrate, and it's worked well for them. People are going to try this method soon enough. Sit back and wait a year. It will be well proven soon enough. 

One point about these cultures I forgot to mention. 
How fast can you harvest 2000 fully cleaned, ready to use, springtails? I can do it in 5 to 10 seconds. When I say cleaned, I mean you put springtails in the viv to be eaten. You don't put a spoonful of peat or coco in your viv every time you feed. Just a beautiful 2000 springtails in 10 seconds.


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## Philsuma

do you have a link to the preferred clay to use?


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## Pumilo

Philsuma said:


> do you have a link to the preferred clay to use?


Here is a link to the original recipe. I couldn't find the one for the extra crispy.

I dropped the coco/peat, the sugar, and the cornstarch.
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html

Here is the amended recipe. 
Culturing Clay Recipe
3 Quarts RedArt powdered clay
1/2 Quart Sodium Bentonite powdered clay
1/2 Quart Calcium Bentonite powdered clay
1/2 Quart Fine Aragonite Sand
1/4 to 1/2 cup Calcium Carbonate**

Dry mix all ingredients in a sealed Ziplock bag. That keeps the dust down. Pour it in a 5 gallon bucket. Use water to hydrate mix. I use about 3/4 of a 2 quart container. Mix like crazy. I use a drill and a paint stirrer from WalMart. The better ones don't work as they get bogged down in the thick mix, get the cheapy with the red plastic stirrer on the end from WalMart.

**I have a new, much cheaper source for the calcium carbonate. While you are purchasing your clay, ask them for some "Whiting". Whiting is calcium carbonate.


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## Pumilo

You can substitute fine aragonite with reptile substrate white *calcium* sand. They sell it in smaller bags, and you don't need much. It's what I've used on my last few batches.


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## Socratic Monologue

Kmc said:


> Does this information make you feel comfortable enough to feed froglets a staple of organisms with elongated gut tracts full of clay? Simply because it makes a good substrate and has calcium, thats available through other successful means?
> 
> It is vitally important to not hitchhike unrelated aspects of enamoring feature in husbandry. I feel it is important in a principle above personality way to examine this aspect and not blindly connect factors.


I was just pointing out that clay isn't likely to be completely foreign to dendrobatid digestive systems. Nothing more.  

Another thing worth pointing out (without making any sorts of judgement) is that without more information, I'm sceptical of the whole calcium link here (yes, this is gonna get sacrilegious). A couple points:

Calcium carbonate is poorly soluble in water (~1 g/liter); not much of the calcium carbonate added to the clay mix will be absorbed into the clay particles. If the springs are eating the clay (as evidenced by red intestines), it doesn't follow that they're taking up much calcium at all. I have to admit, I have not followed all the clay threads here over the years, so maybe this has been addressed, or maybe someone with a lot more chemistry and geology than I have can educate me. 

Also: there's been little talk here on DB (a search tells me) of the relevance of fact that the clay is high in iron. 

https://www.theceramicshop.com/product/299/red-art-clay-cedar-heights/

Repashy Calcium Plus contains no added iron as such (I just learned this now); Dendrocare does. Given that we all supplement calcium (possibly to excess, I recall Ed saying in the past), but most of us do not supplement iron, there seems reason to suspect that if clay has any benefit to frogs, it may not be calcium.


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## Kmc

Pumilo said:


> One point about these cultures I forgot to mention.
> How fast can you harvest 2000 fully cleaned, ready to use, springtails? I can do it in 5 to 10 seconds. When I say cleaned, I mean you put springtails in the viv to be eaten. You don't put a spoonful of peat or coco in your viv every time you feed. Just a beautiful 2000 springtails in 10 seconds.


This was not lost on me, and why it occurred to me that it would surely be used as a primary feeder for the most diminutive of froglets. 

Make no mistake that i appreciate the mechanical genius of being able to create such a mega isolate method of dispensing springtails. 

But I feel as a precautionary, until trials of raising froglets to at least sub adulthood, with seive+magnification examination of stool as part of its investigation, it might be a good idea to finesse such feedings with a period of gutwash on standard springtail food before feeding, which would be easy to accomplish for the very reasons stated by Pumilo as one of the main advantages of the culture technique.


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## Kmc

Sieve flush w warm water + magnification of stool dissolves organic digested excreta components where only the undigested remains, chitin, plant matter, inerts.

It may be tricky to do with such minutia, finding right micron mesh in this case but worth a try.

Its actually fascinating and i highly recommend. sidenote

In larger taxa certain sands and milled subs have been seen to not be managed effectively by the motility of the intestines, and sit sludge like in an accumulative manner. It seems to reason that significant volumes of clay may on scale in a tiny subject, be prone to a similiar dynamic. 

It is the small intestine and juncture of stomach leading to the small intestine and the narrow juncture of sm intestine leading to large bowel that are vulnerable.

Chemical tolerance of the constituents of the clay shouldnt be overlooked in tiny froglets ingesting it, just because of its other qualities in plant and substrate use.

I didnt see anything wrong, or argumentative with sharing such a perspective.


----------



## Rain_Frog

> Repashy Calcium Plus contains no added iron as such (I just learned this now); Dendrocare does. Given that we all supplement calcium (possibly to excess, I recall Ed saying in the past), but most of us do not supplement iron, there seems reason to suspect that if clay has any benefit to frogs, it may not be calcium.


I wondered that myself. I also wonder if trace minerals might be helpful to the frogs that perhaps Repashy might be lacking in. The other thing I was going to ask the other Doug was if there was any value with adding iron oxide powder. The only possible thing I would be concerned about, depending on the clay source, is heavy metals that the frogs could be ingesting.


----------



## Johanovich

Socratic Monologue said:


> I poked around Google Scholar for any insight into whether the prey animals of Dendrobatids might themselves ingest clay. I didn't find anything, but I did find numerous references to the fact that tropical terrestrial hymenoptera do a lot of living in clay, excavating their tunnel habitats, etc. Likely they at least pick up a lot of it.


Both myself and several colleagues of mine have worked on soils from French-Guyana, specifically from Nouragues where D. tinctorius, R. amazonica and R. ventrimaculata are common. The soils there do contain a decent amount of clay (up to 40%), so it is not unreasonable to assume that native springtails and other microfauna there have clay in their guts. Here are a few snippets from published papers from them describing the typical soil there:

Soils are highly weathered and have typical characteristics associated with low fertility, such as low cation exchange capacity, high acidity and very low total and available P concentrations. Due to a sesquioxide dominated mineral fraction and the presence of 1:1 clays such as kaolinite, these soils have a high capacity to adsorb mineral P, reducing its availability to plants. 

Soil texture and biogeochemistry in tropical forests can fluctuate with topography owing to variations in drainage capacity and erosion, which are usually associated with topographic position. Soils between hills are nutrient-poor sandy podzols, with clay minerals (kaolinite) and oxides contents increasing towards the tops where acrisols dominate.

Soils at Paracou range from loamy sand to sandy loam, while soils at Nouragues contain much more clay and span the range of sandy loam to silty clay according to the USDA texture classification chart.


----------



## Kmc

No, its not unreasonable to _assume_ that some springtails would have some clay in their gut, by proximally ingesting target organic matter and that some of those would be ingested along with the several hundred + other species of bugs that are eaten that do not.

So I am going to make an assumption that tiny froglets receiving a diet that includes a sack of clay on a regular basis, are at risk of expiring with paste in their gut.

I hope I'm wrong. Who's going to be the first to Actually Try it, with their froglets?

No one has yet volunteered.


----------



## Johanovich

Kmc said:


> No, its not unreasonable to _assume_ that some springtails would have some clay in their gut, by proximally ingesting target organic matter and that some of those would be ingested along with the several hundred + other species of bugs that are eaten that do not.
> 
> So I am going to make an assumption that tiny froglets receiving a diet that includes a sack of clay on a regular basis, are at risk of expiring with paste in their gut.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong. Who's going to be the first to Actually Try it, with their froglets?
> 
> No one has yet volunteered.


I'm going to set up one of these clay springtail boom cultures this week, but it will take a while before I have enough springtails to act as a stable food source. Then I will volunteer to try it on future froglets and report back.

Also, it's not only springtails that have clay in their guts. I'd wager that the majority of the froggy diet has clay inside of them to some extent. Especially considering the dendrobates diet consists mainly of ants, mites, termites and other soil dwelling species that do a fair bit of excavating.

Here is another snippet from the abstract of a recent paper discussing D. tinctorius diet during wet and dry seasons:

The frogs in these patches consume a great diversity of prey, consisting of ants, beetles, wasps, insect larvae, and mites. During the dry season, frogs move to retreat sites in mature forest, such as palm bracts and tree holes. The frogs are less active and consume fewer prey items in the dry season, and they consume fewer wasps and insect larvae, but more termites. Ants are the most common prey items during both the wet and dry seasons.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Rain_Frog said:


> any value with adding iron oxide powder. .


Possibly, although the simpler route would be to use a dusting supplement that contains it. Wikipedia tells me that the lowest toxic dose of iron in humans is only about 300% of the therapeutic dose, which is a pretty narrow margin if we're essentially dosing on the basis of no data, no knowledge of whether there is a deficiency in this mineral at all, and a multi-month wait for feedback (since this is supposed to help Oophaga breeding success, right?) which is going to be all anecdotal anyway.

Are there keepers here who use only Dendrocare and can report differences in outcomes from those who use only Repashy? That would be interesting, and would -- in the absence of other hypotheses -- suggest that the iron link is worth considering.

There is a complicating factor of the high level of bentonite in the clay, too. Bentonite has a lot of biological effects, but none of them are positive regarding calcium uptake:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5632318/


----------



## Kmc

As I said, I hope I am wrong. 

I hope that the intensive gut loading of a volcanic ash clay from Wyoming is as harmless to froglets as the speculated amount of collaterally acquired native clays you cited.

I find it interesting that none - 0 - of my points where ever considered as valid by any one on the thread, even those that included anatomical and vetrinary accuracies, not assumptions.

I also found it interesting that tho i considered the artificiality of a wholly inorganic gut load problematic, I made positive statements about the neatness of cull and mechanical management - including a way to exploit those virtues and still mitigate the unknown 100% clay factor by simply allowing the springs to flush their gut and reload on normal food before feeding them out.

I wonder what would have been the case, if this topic was the other way around. 

A sociological ponder. Ah the Cyber Serengeti.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Kmc said:


> I find it interesting that none - 0 - of my points where ever considered as valid by any one on the thread, even those that included anatomical and vetrinary accuracies, not assumptions.


False. All my claims here take your warnings into consideration as I try to suggest alternate paths to the supplementation goal, and paths away from the highly speculative clay method. I deflected your claim that clay is an "unprecedented dietary material", but that's the only claim of yours I considered invalid.

Credit where credit is due, eh?


----------



## Louis

I understand KMC's caution here but I'm struggling to believe that the springtails are actually _eating_ as much of the clay as we seem to be assuming even if they're excavating it.
It seems there should be more documented evidence of collembollids feeding on clay where they have the opportunity to do so considering folsomia candida has so often been used as a model organism for soil toxicity studies. I _have_ seen evidence that springtails are able to sort and discard food particles with their mouthparts though and the content of collembolla intestines has been pretty well investigated. I've never seen anything which indicated they would benefit from eating significant amounts of clay or that they do so when more appropriate food sources are available. 
The main benefit I see here is the ability to harvest 'clean' springtails, which if you're concerned about gut tracts packed with clay, is also very, very easily achieved with a pooter that can be bought or assembled for less than the cost of materials required to make Doug's clay unless you already have them on hand.
I'd be really interested to see some comparisons between cultures started on clay vs. traditional substrates, including plaster of paris, initiated at the same time and with the same number of adult springtails - and fed precise weights of yeast.
Someone here on dendroboard experimented with something very similar to what Doug has done here back in 2018 using the traditional culture medium plaster of paris to create similarly high surface area cultures that could be 'cleanly' harvested. 
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/29709-springtail-hotel.html
It also met with very mixed responses and the exact same concerns about plaster accumulating in frog intestines but it looks like he would have been in a position to investigate the springtails gut contents a little more thoroughly, unfortunately they don't seem to be active here anymore.
It's maybe worth noting that they definitely _didn't_ report significant production of springtails compared to more common substrates in their experiment as Doug has here, but it seems there would be a lot to control for in any really valid comparison.
Thanks for sharing this Doug, it's certainly interesting and well worth experimenting further with. You're success culturing podura sp. is worth a tip of the hat too.


----------



## Johanovich

This ties in nicely with your previous post about the tone and filters that posts can have. Similarly to Socratic, I did not mean to ignore your points or posts, my only goals was to provide some extra info on the likely presence of clay in Dendrobatid prey items.




Kmc said:


> This is the problem with online discussion. It is perfectly ok for both of us to have our own perspectives, i have noticed that is not the problemetic feature of differences, in "posts" but perception, where persons involved have their own filters of how they receive a statement. I tried to frame my post in a non argumentive tone - i "thought" i had accomplished it.
> 
> Posts online are incomplete, and coloured with insufficient dimension. In some circumstances, two people having a difference of opinion, will have key points in common in other areas.





Kmc said:


> As I said, I hope I am wrong.
> 
> I hope that the intensive gut loading of a volcanic ash clay from Wyoming is as harmless to froglets as the speculated amount of collaterally acquired native clays you cited.
> 
> I find it interesting that none - 0 - of my points where ever considered as valid by any one on the thread, even those that included anatomical and vetrinary accuracies, not assumptions.
> 
> I also found it interesting that tho i considered the artificiality of a wholly inorganic gut load problematic, I made positive statements about the neatness of cull and mechanical management - including a way to exploit those virtues and still mitigate the unknown 100% clay factor by simply allowing the springs to flush their gut and reload on normal food before feeding them out.
> 
> I wonder what would have been the case, if this topic was the other way around.
> 
> A sociological ponder. Ah the Cyber Serengeti.





Socratic Monologue said:


> False. All my claims here take your warnings into consideration as I try to suggest alternate paths to the supplementation goal, and paths away from the highly speculative clay method. I deflected your claim that clay is an "unprecedented dietary material", but that's the only claim of yours I considered invalid.
> 
> Credit where credit is due, eh?


----------



## Encyclia

All good points, Louis. As to whether the springtails are eating the clay, did you see the video Doug took of them in the white bowl? The color was certainly unusual (compared to my springtails) and suspiciously similar to that of the clay they were grown in, I thought. Regardless, good info in this post. I didn't even know culturing on plaster of paris was a thing. I have always used charcoal.

I am most excited about this technique because it makes dry collection and, therefore, dusting much easier. Just looking at the size of your cups and the production you are getting, I would guess that more springtails can be produced in a smaller space, too.

Bravo, Doug. I might have to actually man up and finally make some of the clay for myself. The only clay I have is what you put in the tanks you made for Aaron (which I now have).

Mark



Louis said:


> I understand KMC's caution here but I'm struggling to believe that the springtails are actually _eating_ as much of the clay as we seem to be assuming even if they're excavating it.
> It seems there should be more documented evidence of collembollids feeding on clay where they have the opportunity to do so considering folsomia candida has so often been used as a model organism for soil toxicity studies. I _have_ seen evidence that springtails are able to sort and discard food particles with their mouthparts though and the content of collembolla intestines has been pretty well investigated. I've never seen anything which indicated they would benefit from eating significant amounts of clay or that they do so when more appropriate food sources are available.
> The main benefit I see here is the ability to harvest 'clean' springtails, which if you're concerned about gut tracts packed with clay, is also very, very easily achieved with a pooter that can be bought or assembled for less than the cost of materials required to make Doug's clay unless you already have them on hand.
> I'd be really interested to see some comparisons between cultures started on clay vs. traditional substrates, including plaster of paris, initiated at the same time and with the same number of adult springtails - and fed precise weights of yeast.
> Someone here on dendroboard experimented with something very similar to what Doug has done here back in 2018 using the traditional culture medium plaster of paris to create similarly high surface area cultures that could be 'cleanly' harvested.
> https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/29709-springtail-hotel.html
> It also met with very mixed responses and the exact same concerns about plaster accumulating in frog intestines but it looks like he would have been in a position to investigate the springtails gut contents a little more thoroughly, unfortunately they don't seem to be active here anymore.
> It's maybe worth noting that they definitely _didn't_ report significant production of springtails compared to more common substrates in their experiment as Doug has here, but it seems there would be a lot to control for in any really valid comparison.
> Thanks for sharing this Doug, it's certainly interesting and well worth experimenting further with. You're success culturing podura sp. is worth a tip of the hat too.


----------



## Louis

Encyclia said:


> All good points, Louis. As to whether the springtails are eating the clay, did you see the video Doug took of them in the white bowl? The color was certainly unusual (compared to my springtails) and suspiciously similar to that of the clay they were grown in, I thought.


Somehow I completely missed this. I've looked at that video now and you're absolutely right the colour is quite different than what I would expect. 
I think taking this into consideration two things become quite clear to me
1. Doug has obviously made quite an unusual discovery here that calls for further investigation because as far as I can tell springtails and specifically folsomia candida, which these appear to be, have not been previously documented to eat significant amounts of inorganic material in this way. And...
2. That I would be initially as hesitant to feed these in significant quantities to froglets as KMC. It's unfortunate that Dougs not necessarily in a position to experiment in this regard himself as I think I recall him mentioning recently that he doesn't have frogs at the moment. I do recognize that there's no overwhelming evidence that consumption of clay would be harmful (and that humans can eat suprising quantities of it to no ill effect) but given how novel the springtails eating it in this quantity seems to be I would just be inclined to err on the side of caution.

One fact that I don't think has been mentioned so far and may be relevant is that some species of collembolla are associated with ant and termite mounds. Termite mounds in particular are largely composed of clay. So there may be something worth looking into there.

I've not had time to read through this yet but I found an interesting paper that I'm certain might be useful to the discussion in this thread titled *"The Gut of the Soil Microarthropod Folsomia candida (Collembola) Is a Frequently Changeable but Selective Habitat and a Vector for Microorganisms"*
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC106441/

I wonder whether the bacteria endemic to the digestive system of the springs is actually what's somehow thriving on the clay and then being reconsumed by them.


----------



## Philsuma

I have recently acquired 5 of these 'tiny clay cx's'

I tried to flood one of them, to harvest but this resulted in the clay become very wet and sloppy, not able to return to it's original moist state.

They are obviously best harvested dry - tap out method.

I feed these cxs sweet powdered rice and powdered assorted mushrooms. I do not relay on them eating *only* the clay.

I do not supplement / dust them prior to feeding out to my (mostly) grow out tanks. 

I view springtails as a supplemental feeder only. I always affirm to get all froglets unto properly dusted melanogaster as soon as possible. Only escudo and some other tiny Oophaga are worrisome in this regard.

Some thoughts.


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## Pumilo

Philsuma said:


> I feed these cxs sweet powdered rice and powdered assorted mushrooms. I do not relay on them eating *only* the clay.


You don't think I only feed them clay, do you? They would die if they only ate clay. They eat the solid, active baker's yeast that I feed them every 24 to 36 hours. It becomes a semi-solid quickly. The yeast is their main diet.


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## Philsuma

No and I just realized that every post here is either 'defend or attack'

I put 'somethoughts' at the end of post but it got misconstrued.

just trying to add to the overall knowledge and not meant to be 'pro or con' the OP


----------



## Ravage

Socratic Monologue said:


> Repashy Calcium Plus contains no added iron as such (I just learned this now); Dendrocare does. Given that we all supplement calcium (possibly to excess, I recall Ed saying in the past), but most of us do not supplement iron, there seems reason to suspect that if clay has any benefit to frogs, it may not be calcium.


You are Correct: it contains no added iron- but it does contain iron. Calcium plus is laced with SuperPig, or so Allen has told me. Ingredient one in SuperPig is: Krill. Krill is pretty high in iron (depending on where and what season it was harvested). Just one of those strange factoids you pick up, trivia that might one day be of use. I don't know the dietary reqs. for iron in the frog diet. I would assume it would come mostly from prey and their sweet, sweet blood.
I'm definitely going to try this. The boom and bust of charcoal can be annoying and sometimes panicking (depending on how many tiny mouths there are to feed.)


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Listed ingredients in Superpig, cut and pasted from Repashy's site:

INGREDIENTS: Calendula Flower, Pfaffia Yeast, Paprika, Marigold Flower, Algae Meal (Chlorella), RoseHips, Hibiscus Flower, Turmeric.

https://www.store.repashy.com/superpig-4-oz-bag.html


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## hypostatic

Pumilo never ceases to impress with his culturing innovations! 



Pumilo said:


> I dropped the coco/peat, the sugar, and the cornstarch.


I imagine that removing the organics would lead to longer stability of the media; with an obvious trade-off that the culture needs to be fed more often.




Rain_Frog said:


> I also wonder if trace minerals might be helpful to the frogs that perhaps Repashy might be lacking in.


For YEARS I've been convinced that Cal+ doesn't completely fulfill the nutritional needs of frogs. I believe Allen has stated on DB that Cal+ was designed to be a stand-alone supplement specifically for dart frogs. When I started in the hobby, and was supplementing only Cal+, I would see STS pop up with some frequency in froglets. Since then, I started doing about a 75% Cal+, 25% A+ mix at feedings, and the problem has been pretty much resolved.




Rain_Frog said:


> The other thing I was going to ask the other Doug was if there was any value with adding iron oxide powder. The only possible thing I would be concerned about, depending on the clay source, is heavy metals that the frogs could be ingesting.





Socratic Monologue said:


> Possibly, although the simpler route would be to use a dusting supplement that contains it. Wikipedia tells me that the lowest toxic dose of iron in humans is only about 300% of the therapeutic dose,


I wouldn't add iron oxide to the frogs' diet, since its bioavailability is quite low -- which explains the relatively narrow window for toxicity. For metals to be efficiently metabilized, they need to be in some chelated form.




Ravage said:


> You are Correct: it contains no added iron- but it does contain iron. Calcium plus is laced with SuperPig, or so Allen has told me. Ingredient one in SuperPig is: Krill. Krill is pretty high in iron





Socratic Monologue said:


> Listed ingredients in Superpig, cut and pasted from Repashy's site:
> INGREDIENTS: Calendula Flower, Pfaffia Yeast, Paprika, Marigold Flower, Algae Meal (Chlorella), RoseHips, Hibiscus Flower, Turmeric.


For humans at least, the source of iron that is best absorbed is heme iron, which comes from blood/meat (and is a form of chelated iron). You need Vit C in order to properly uptake iron, and Calcium can inhibit/block the uptake of iron.(Source)
Also, as soon as I typed this, I realized why it's NOT a good idea to mix repashy Cal+ with A+ 

It's worth mentioning that Chorella is pretty high in Iron. 1 ounce of Chorella contains about 16mg of iron; beef has 0.7mg of iron (Chorella ; Beef). Worth mentioning is that Chorella is the #1 ingredient in repashy Vit A+, and if you've ever gotten the powder moist, you would notice that it turns a deep green color from the Chorella.


----------



## Arby2017!!

Pumilo said:


> Here is a link to the original recipe. I couldn't find the one for the extra crispy.
> 
> I dropped the coco/peat, the sugar, and the cornstarch.
> https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html
> 
> Here is the amended recipe.
> Culturing Clay Recipe
> 3 Quarts RedArt powdered clay
> 1/2 Quart Sodium Bentonite powdered clay
> 1/2 Quart Calcium Bentonite powdered clay
> 1/2 Quart Fine Aragonite Sand
> 1/4 to 1/2 cup Calcium Carbonate**
> 
> Dry mix all ingredients in a sealed Ziplock bag. That keeps the dust down. Pour it in a 5 gallon bucket. Use water to hydrate mix. I use about 3/4 of a 2 quart container. Mix like crazy. I use a drill and a paint stirrer from WalMart. The better ones don't work as they get bogged down in the thick mix, get the cheapy with the red plastic stirrer on the end from WalMart.
> 
> **I have a new, much cheaper source for the calcium carbonate. While you are purchasing your clay, ask them for some "Whiting". Whiting is calcium carbonate.


I see the modified recipe listed up above in the thread. Are there instructions posted somewhere on what to do with this version once you mix it? Just create thick walls and bottom layer in sturdy plastic ice cream containers or similar and add the springtails? Thanks!
Rick


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## Pumilo

Arby2017!! said:


> I see the modified recipe listed up above in the thread. Are there instructions posted somewhere on what to do with this version once you mix it? Just create thick walls and bottom layer in sturdy plastic ice cream containers or similar and add the springtails? Thanks!
> Rick


That's pretty much it. I'm afraid I don't have a quick, easy, and clean way to apply it. It's messy. I just smear it on with my hands. I can tell you that the 32 oz fruit fly size deli cups are very hard to work properly into the bottom. The 16 oz size is many times easier to do. The ice cream containers were fairly easy to work with, too.
Don't go thicker than about 1/4" to maybe 3/8".

Don't forget to leave the top inch of the culture bare. If there is a clean, 1" lip around the top, it's a lot easier to feed without escapees.


----------



## Pumilo

Just wanted to check back in on this thread one more time. The conversations on clay are continuing on half a dozen FaceBook frog groups, and over at DartDen. I figured I owe it to my friends who do want to learn something new, that this is a very viable method.
Since I have friends here that DO want to learn this, and get out of the dark ages, I would really appreciate it if the naysayers would step aside and allow people to decide for themselves about a time tested, extremely well proven in the field, culturing method.
Please do feel free to start a thread about the evils of calcium clay, and how it will spell the doom of the frogging hobby as we know it. I promise to stay out of it, and you guys can make up any weird theories you want to about clay. The rest of us? Turns out there is an overwhelming desire to learn more about culturing on clay. I've been very busy at OTHER frog groups (FaceBook), answering questions and spreading the newest recipe. I've shared with other froggers, my experiences with working with 9 different kinds of springtails on clay. I've had 150 to 200 test cultures going since posting this, doing things like purposely abusing cultures, seeing just what it takes to make them excell, and just what it takes to kill them off, all in the pursuit of better culturing methods. I have deliberately killed off about 50 cultures now, trying to see what temperatures, humidity, container depth, and overfeeding do to cultures, so that you guys don't kill yours with avoidable mistakes. I've been seeing who does great on it, (Podura!!), and who does not (unreleased "Dusky Drys").

The people have spoken. They want the research. Gimmie my dam thread back or I will kill this thread myself, and leave this jacked up thread to wierd, unproven theories that fly in face of a decade's worth of many, many froggers culturing on clay.
THINK...Just think about it. What is any different whether I do a clay culture in a plastic 8 oz deli cup, a plastic ice cream container, or a glass box? Guys, all we did was scoop it up and put it in deli cup!! That doesn't change it's function and blow up your frogs like helium balloons.
What makes it that different than in the rainforests, where the substrate is usually made up of the finest ABG substr...wait, that's not right. It's CLAY!


"A Piece of Fruit"

A piece of fruit falls in the rainforest. I know, that's probably a stretch too, right? Not much fruit in the rainforests? Let's just pretend that a piece of fruit could somehow, against all odds, fall off a tree. Where does it land? 
Could it possibly land on...clay? Let's pretend for a moment that the added heat and humidity of the rainforests doesn't somehow preserve the fruit, and that the normal laws of the universe also exist in the rainforest. That would mean the fruit would decompose even faster. It rots, putrifies, and liquifies. It soaks into the clay. When the last of the fruit is gone, all those sugary juices don't just evaporate. There is no magical rainforest fairy that transports the remnants to the ninth plane of Hell. It simply soaks into the substrate.
Do we remember what the substrate is? Oh yeah, CLAY!
What in world do you think keeps bugs from eating incidental amounts of clay while going after those juices? Especially when I've already proven even the simplest of "bugs", that don't even have any external mouth parts, eat a bit of clay while going after dinner.
Whatever could possibly make you think that frogs are not going to gather around that piece of rot, and eat those clay filled bugs? I mean, haven't many, many hobbyists proven that 10,000 times over by now? The entire hobby knows it as a FEEDING STATION. 

It turns out that in my absence from the hobby, somebody else beat me to using my original Calcium Bearing Clay Substrate recipe to make clay cultures. I have seen at least 5 different people offering up springtails on my recipe. There are a lot of them out there. Many people will use nothing else anymore.
Turns out that Podura springtails do NOT need a swamp. The reproduce at crazy rates on clay.

Once upon a time, while checking back in on Dendroboard, I saw mentions of a new method of culturing, and I saw a picture. I didn't know this until recently, but it was Mark, from Understory, that presented this new method. Thank you Mark! He was mixing what looked like peat, into a thin mud, and applying that as a very thin coating of substrate that stayed in the culture, when you tapped them gently out. 
It really sparked my imagination, and inspired me to begin experimenting with using clay in a similar fashion. Remember, however, I've been away from the hobby. Until a month or two ago, I honestly believed I was the first to come up with this. I was not. There are froggers who have been using this method exclusively, for quite a while now. Four years, in fact. 

Get this, because it's hard to believe...in 4 years of many, many, froggers using Calcium Bearing Clay Substrate....
Not a single report of exploding frogs!!
ZERO impactions, friends, even though many hobbyist breeders are raising frogs to maturity, on calcium clay. We've got multiple generations of frog's raised on clay culturers now. Mom and dad were raised on them, grandma and grandpa frog were raised on them, and the generation mom and dad produced earlier in the year, are being raised on them right now.

Of course there are no impactions! This has been in use for about a decade now. It's very well time tested.

You want tested? It's been tested by many, for a decade. Just because you think, for reasons that I cannot fathom, that testing in a glass, square container, somehow changes the results when you put it in a rounded, plastic container, That doesn't negate the FACT that they are the same. 10 years of testing stands. Frog's don't spontaneously explode when fed insects that were raised on clay.
You want tested? It's been tested, in the little plastic containers that somehow change everything, that you think has a dangerous potential to create frog bombs. It's been tested in 8 oz deli cups. It's been tested in 16 oz deli cups. It's been tested in 32 oz deli cups. It's been tested in Blue Bunny ice cream containers. It's been tested by soooo many hobbyists, in soooo many different containers. So far, no matter what size, shape, and material we have tried, have been *complete failures*. The US military has informed me they will no longer fund the research behind weaponizing an army of tiny, exploding, frog bombs. 
Apparently they decided they would have better luck creating a novel pathogen, instead of a bomb, by weaponizing the Pangolin. (crickets chirping) Too soon?

To those who want to learn something, I really don't anticipate this thread to change. Never once have I suggested to anybody, that they might need to leave dendroboard to find the information they were looking for. However, I'm not going to stay here beating my head against the wall in pointless arguements, when I have so many other froggers in other places who actually want to hear it. Can't believe I'm actually saying this, but if I don't visit this thread again, and you want to hear what I'm sharing elsewhere, you are welcome to come visit me over at FaceBook. (muttered generic expletive) I'm Doug Hollister, the one with the cute, black, puppy on my lap. I assure you wholeheartedly, I am NOT the Doug Hollister on FaceBook who is the country singer!


----------



## Philsuma

Great work Doug. I'm a fan.

I have not seen any negative comments, especially impaction ect. Silly.

I've been using charcoal for springtail cx for over 16 years and it's hit or miss. Sometimes it's really good and easy to flood and feed off and clean and other times you can never get the CX to boom.

SIZE of container is important IMO. Bug people always used to say - make the containers smaller so 'the bugs can find each other to breed, easier'. Wow...makes a ton of sense.

One quick request - those 8 oz deli cups seem ideal. I envision a rack of 80 or so to service my froglets. I need the exact type you use. MOST are clear and thin plastic that actually tear. Some are 'microwavable' and hard plastic with reenforced cup lips and they are almost impossible to open. 

What is the perfect durable but easy to open 8 oz del cup??


----------



## Broseph

What I’ve learned:

Regardless of the calcium benefit, the system works very well with regards to making tons of springtails, in “sterile” cultures, which are VERY easily harvested. 

The deli cups used in the hobby seem to have just enough air exchange around the lip of the lid. The clay stays moist and the culture remains aerobic. 

I tried a 32oz plastic pickle jar, and the seal is too tight. While on the vacation last week, the culture went anaerobic/dead springtails/super stinky. I’ve seen apparently dead cultures spring back after exposure to fresh air- this one was a goner. The hobby deli cup culture was fine. 

I kept the cornstarch in the original recipe, thinking it might serve as a buffer between live yeast feedings. This clay is growing mold/bacteria/something between the clay itself and the sides of the cup. I have another wet clay cup with NO organics, and that stays mold free despite not even having springtails (I use this clay to make “calcium baths” in seed pods and overturned coconut husks).

-some anecdotes


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## Pumilo

*Too much moisture, applied too quickly, is going to be the number one killer of these cultures.*

They have to be occasionally misted, but if you mist too much, too fast, there is no recovery. She goes on a death spiral that you can't stop. You can slow it down, by sprinkling a little dry clay mix in, but she's a goner. This is especially true with an aged, well producing culture. You can get away with it in a fresh culture.
The reason for this, is because as the culture ages and matures, it continues to do better and better. You can eventually see that they have excavated hundreds of caves, tunnels, and trenches. Those become the sweet spots for breeding. With my "Giant" springtails, you can see mass exits of offspring from the caves and tunnels.
A fresh culture doesn't have those yet. Everybody is up on the surface of the clay, and everybody knows that Bumbles bounce! Wait, I mean springtails float. Therefore, the clay quickly absorbs the extra moisture and everybody is good.
As your culture ages, and continues to get better and better, the danger increases. When you mist too much now, 2 things can happen. One, the water floods the underground network of pits and cracks. That one or two squirts to much, has flooded the nurseries, trapping adults and offspring, alike. Even if you try to pour it off, that's when the 2nd thing occurs. 
The water already penetrated and filled tunnels, retaining that water. Further, what happens when you add water to clay? Does it expand, contract, or stay the same volume? 
It expands, and as it does so, your network of caves and tunnels shrink while the clay surrounding them shrinks, and turns mushy. They are burried alive.
Now they all trapped and rotting down there, turning the clay anaerobic. The smells start. Everythings going anaerobic now, as you see less and less springtails each day, for a day or three. Then you open one up and see that every one is dead. Then the stench comes rolling out.

Too much moisture, applied too quickly, is going to be the number one killer of these cultures.


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## Kmc

Were the " No Frogs Exploding" in red and all repeating (and connecting, which I see as flawed) calcium bearing _vivarium substrate_ to these, a snarky poke at my honest and specific inquiry about the use for these being used as a staple for new froglets?

If so, is it necessary?


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## Pumilo

Philsuma said:


> Great work Doug. I'm a fan.
> 
> I have not seen any negative comments, especially impaction ect. Silly.
> 
> I've been using charcoal for springtail cx for over 16 years and it's hit or miss. Sometimes it's really good and easy to flood and feed off and clean and other times you can never get the CX to boom.
> 
> SIZE of container is important IMO. Bug people always used to say - make the containers smaller so 'the bugs can find each other to breed, easier'. Wow...makes a ton of sense.
> 
> One quick request - those 8 oz deli cups seem ideal. I envision a rack of 80 or so to service my froglets. I need the exact type you use. MOST are clear and thin plastic that actually tear. Some are 'microwavable' and hard plastic with reenforced cup lips and they are almost impossible to open.
> 
> What is the perfect durable but easy to open 8 oz del cup??


Thanks for your input, Phil. 
I wish that were an easy answer. My heavy duty ones are hard to open, too. I'm thinking the difficult to open lid is not going to be customers favorite choices. You have get your fingers up under the top lip, and push upwards. Then rotate the container, so your fingers slide all around the lid, loosening it completely before trying to lift it off. My first choice is not going to be the ultimate solution, but here it is. https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...y-Duty-Deli-Containers-16-oz?keywords=S-22770
I'm also finding, to my surprise, that the 8 ouncers get good numbers, before the 16 ouncers. I believe that may point towards a little ventilation being reccommended for bigger cultures. Still trying to figure that one out for sure. It may be the lid, rather than the size, causing what I'm seeing. The heavy duty ones may simply seal too tightly, while the lighter duty cups and lids allow some micro-exchange of air. I may try ordering some of the lighter duty, 16 oz cups and lids. 
I've not had any lids rip on my lighter duty cups. They are thicker than some I've seen, and I've been happy with them so far. 
https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-21216/Food-Containers/Deli-Containers-8-oz?keywords=PK8sc
https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...Containers?keywords=9505466+polypropylene+Lid

I've used ULINE many times over the years, for many different things. They have never made a mistake on any of my orders.

I know I used to tell people that with dwarf white isopods in particular, they seem to get started much quicker in smaller containers. I do, however, think it's more about population density. Once your dwarf whites have populated an 8 oz culture well, like a bare minimum of 100 adults, I would not anticipate much slowdown in breeding if you dumped the entire thing into something like my favorite master culture size, Blue Bunny ice cream containers. Now if you tried to seed, say a 15 gallon rubbermaid storage container, with that same, booming, 8 oz culture, I would expect to see a sharp drop in reproduction rates for a while, because the population density is very dilute again. I too, theorize that the smaller, slower, isopods may just be having trouble finding a mate. It's almost as if they won't go out to the singles bar, looking for some sexy bug to take home, BUT, if they just bump into each other somewhere, say if she just comes knocking at your door, they're all in!
I didn't see nearly as bad with dwarf purples, but saw it some.
That seems to go right out the window with the larger species, like any of the oh so many, P. scaber morphs that are available now. You could throw Dairy Cows into a swimming pool sized culture, and I think they wouldn't slow down.
Powder Blues and Powder Orange, too. They are lightning fast, and lightning fast breeders. I don't they'd have any issues either.

I start out all my larger isopods, in groups of 8 to 12, straight into plastic shoebox cultures, and they love to hang out in groups, under a piece of bark. They don't seem to have any trouble finding that someone special across the shoebox.

I agree that culture size is important, but that it varies from species to species.
If you crowd dwarf whites, they excel, but when you crowd P. scaber (Giant Orange) I start to see cannibalism.


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## Philsuma

Thanks Doug, those 2nd lighter 8oz uline seem to be the ticket.

They common amazon deli cups are the clear cheap kind. I seem to remember a type that were semi opaque especially the lid. They seemed better than average.

You're right about flooding a small deli cup clay cx - it will almost be forever ruined. I tried to reseed one and it never really came back. Charcoal is much more forgiving for flooding.

For me, the 8oz deli cup is the size to go with. I plan on also using them in all my small grow-out and temp containers buried to the rim in the ABG. The froglets pound the springs and if they eat all of them, then they can still utilize the clay buy walking on it.


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## Scott

Unfortunately we Moderators have not been paying enough attention.

Doug has been sharing his methods ... for YEARS.

He only recently started selling springtails.

If you have an issue with how he is going about things, take it up with the Moderators.

As far as I am concerned, we need more like him and less like those kvetching about him.

Seriously.

Personal attacks will not be taken lightly, and they will be dealt with. Go there at your own peril.

DB Moderators


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## Kmc

Wow. Im Shocked.


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## Kmc

Science doesnt come first here, after all.


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## Scott

The personal attack was the main issue. 

The rest was removed for the moment. It might be reviewed/restored - later.



Kmc said:


> Science doesnt come first here, after all.


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## Scott

I've finally gotten around to looking at this.

I really don't know what the issue with raising Springtails on clay is. Understory Enterprises has been doing it for quite awhile now. No issues with them (either).

In other news - I've had vivariums on clay for upwards of 15 years. They were chocked full of fauna. No issues with any occupants in these vivariums either.

My initial main issue with how two of our Members approached this is - they made it personal. Doug (Pumilo) has been doing frogs/feeders for a long time. Someone mentioned they've been at it ten years? Good for you, Doug has been doing it much longer than that.

He shared his methods *long* before he decided to sell his "product". You'd think once he decided to sell, he'd have asked the Moderators to remove this thread, since he's sharing how HE does this, and therefore how YOU can do this. No need to buy anything from him if you're so inclined. But if you'd rather get them from him, get them from him. He didn't *care*. He was just trying to help the hobby.

Personal attacks are not going to fly here. 

This thread will remain closed.


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