# 500 gallon vivarium, how many frogs?



## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

Hello folks,

I'm new to the forum and am converting a 500 gallon reef tank into a vivarium to keep as many dart frogs together as are confortable. I know that everyone frowns on mixing species in small setups, but I wonder who has had experience with big setups and reasonably how many frogs can be comfortable with 24 sq. ft. of bottom area. I hear that the American Museum on Natural History has an exhibit going on now with something like 250 frogs. 

Thanks,

Dave


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## bluetip (May 18, 2004)

I suppose if you follow 1 frog / 10 gallons, that's gonna get you 50 frogs? I've got a 250 gallon frontosa tank I'm thinking of converting too...hehehe...


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## bradadams (Jun 3, 2004)

Dave,

I think it depends on what frog you want to put in there. If you want to go with something like azureus or tincs I wouldn't put more then 20 or so. You may be better off forgoing the more agressive darts all together and go with something like auratus or galactonotus. They do better in groups. If you want to have more then one species I would recommend that you only mix species that occur together in the wild. Example, pumilio and auratus. But don't tell anyone you heard this from me. :wink:


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

First I would ask have you kept any darts before? If not I would really suggest starting out with something smaller, so you can see firsthand what does and what doesnot work. Maintaining a viv that big could be difficult, culturing the amount of food necessary for such a viv would be a production in itself. I suggest going and buying yourself a 29 gallon or a ten gallon and starting small, you will want smaller tanks to grow out froglets anyways (unless you plan on spending $$ on adults, which are often 4x as expensive).


-Tad


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

Tad and Brad,

Thanks for the good advice. No, as a newcomer I have not kept any darts before. But doesn't a large viv generate its own supply of food? If I keep a stocking density as low as you suggest (one dart per 25 gallons) and use lots of leaf litter and dense plantings, won't the darts be hunting natural plankton? And while we're on that subject, what plankton could I seed other than springtails? 

To draw a correlation to my former reef tank (which was lightly stocked with fish but heavily stacked with reef rocks) I seldom fed the tank and kept many "difficult fish" happy. Won't the same be true of a large vivarium? You have good advice to start small and learn dart habits before I graduate to a larger viv, and it would be cheaper. But I also have to consider the time lost to starting small, when I could be enjoying the larger viv sooner. Would a compromise be to start with a few adults in the large viv, let the darts and viv "mature" together, and then grow out froglets until a an optimum population is reached?

Dave


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

I think you could easily culture springtails inside the vivarium and maybe some isopods. Those however are not enough to keep the frogs well fed. You would need to do fruitflys and maybe crickets. Getting a selfsustaining population even in a vivarium that large would be difficult (I would think, hell I'm a computer programmer not a biologist). All of this leaves out the possiblilty of calcium/vitamin supplementation. 

I would setup a smaller tank or two, and after doing that start working on the large one. You could keep/have a few frogs around you while you work on what I'm assuming would be a labor/time intensive task of planting/landscaping the 500 gallon vivarium. 

-Tad


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

In that size of a tank you could definitely have a semi-sustainable supply of food. You would have to sacrifice aesthetics a bit for a mound of rotting fruit, but it would work. In the Ranario I worked at for a while in Costa Rica they never fed flies but rather just threw in broken pieces of bananas weekly. They did supplement with crickets, but there was enough flies and they were breeding several species even at such high elevations. I would definitely keep a good amount of organic matter on the bottom and add fruits in different places to help congregate the food.
j


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

That sounds a little scary piles of rotting fruit  you would probably need to do that even if you weren't aiming for "sustainable" food supply, just so the frogs can learn where to hunt. I would think you'd want to start the ff's in there for a month? before adding the frogs? 


-Tad


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

Tad and J. Yeager,

Sorry if I gave the impression of a "self-sustaining" habitat, I only want enough wild plankton to supplement the regular food. Your advice is good to keep some rotting fruit in the tank for flies, just to the point that the smell doesn't become offensive. Which isopods do you recommend? Sow bugs (rolly polies as I called them as a kid) are common in the midatlantic area (Wash, D.C.) where I live. What is the possibility of parasite introduction if I seed the tank with forest compost and leaf humus from my area? It should be filled with small food organisms.

Dave


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

Have you thought about dividing the tank up in thirds or something like that? Just get a sheet of glass and go to town. I did this to a 70 gallon and it has worked out great.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

chddjohn,

Dividing the tank is a good idea if I have no other choice for dart compatability. Aesthetically, the tank is 9' long and 30" high and built into the wall like a big TV. The whole picture would be more impressive without dividing up the big space, but I may not have a choice if I keep a number of species together. Perhaps I could put dividers just 24" high in a hope of preventing darts from scaling the glass yet enabling large plants to spread their leaves over the divider to give the lush effect I want.

Dave


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

I'm not sure I'd want to divide a big display tank either. With a little of experience, it won't be too hard to set it up so you could have a few different species (which can't hybridize) and have niches for all of them. It is a shame the tank isn't taller, but you can still do a lot of great things with it. 
j


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

I'm thinking you could get away with putting some thumbnails, then a larger dendrobates, and then maybe a phyllobates or epidobates? But aesthetically speaking I think it would be best to find frogs that actually would be found next to eachother in the wild.


I'm curious what frog species *can't* hybridize? I've never heard much discussion on this.


-Tad


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Tad- Start a thread. I'm interested in that too. 
Mike


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2004)

I would ague that to a layman sympatry would not matter as much when seeing a 500 gallon tank as pretty colors. As far as what couldn't hybridize, I would say any egg feeder and faculative egg feeder/non egg feeder. I would also say that size restrictions would certainly keep a D. quinquevittatus group from mating with anything much larger than it. Different genera would also be things that couldn't hybridize. Also, some of the tree frogs that are around now would make decent candidates for this size terrarium as well.
j


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I hope you have a green thumb cause thats going to be alot of plants.


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## StevenBonheim (Feb 22, 2004)

Wow, 500 gallons!
Jumping right into the hobby with such a big project is pretty risky.
The experience one gains by doing things in succession is key. There are thousands of little things that a new hobbyist will learn as they begin to try new things and learn from their mistakes. These things will dictate the success or failure of such a project. I’m not saying it’s impossible… I would just try something smaller first. Also as time goes on, your talent as a “terrarium constructor” will grow and you may end up hating your first few tanks. At least that's what happens with me...


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Mid-Atlantic Dendro Club*

The DC area is going to be having a group meeting soon (Sun. Dec. 12, 7pm or Fri. Dec. 17, 7 pm). I think this would be a fascinating topic. You would have the input of about 20 people! Also, you would probably get some free plant clippings to get that monster started and definitely frogs to buy! From what I have read, I would start the vivarium with no frogs in them to get the plants going and work out the feeding situation/schedule and make sure all the tank parameters (temp, plumbing, lighting, misting, etc.) are in order. You could also buy the frogs at the same time and grow them out in multiple 10 gallon tanks to check the health of frogs and make sure that they are all eating properly. With a tank that size, I think it would be hard to see all of them on a daily basis. Follow thiese threads for the DC group meeting:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3960

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4047

Thanks,

David



StevenBonheim said:


> Wow, 500 gallons!
> Jumping right into the hobby with such a big project is pretty risky.
> The experience one gains by doing things in succession is key. There are thousands of little things that a new hobbyist will learn as they begin to try new things and learn from their mistakes. These things will dictate the success or failure of such a project. I’m not saying it’s impossible… I would just try something smaller first. Also as time goes on, your talent as a “terrarium constructor” will grow and you may end up hating your first few tanks. At least that's what happens with me...


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## bradadams (Jun 3, 2004)

Dave,

If you are just getting into the hobby I think it would be a better idea to start with just a few frogs. As far as putting them in the 500 gallon or a smaller terrarium I don't really know what would be better. I started out in this hobby with 3 frogs and a ninty gallon terrarium. Not quite a 500 gallon but still pretty large. All three frogs did well for me and even bred. There were LOTS of springtails in this tank and I am sure they contributed to my success with these frogs. Definitely don't start with more then 3 or 4 frogs.

Brad


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2004)

Brad, David, Steven, JYeager et. al.,

Thanks for the good advice. I'll plant the vivarium first and seed it with small invertebrates, then give it a while to stabilize before adding timid dart species. Perhaps they can find a niche before more aggressive darts are introduced. Either way I hope a lot of cover and some wild plankton will keep less dominant darts in good health. 

Regarding tank height, I kept it at 30" so I could still reach the bottom of the reef tank. I don't mind rolling up my sleeve to work in a tank, but draw the line at getting my armpits wet. (If anyone ever builds a large tank, please measure your arm reach first so you can work on the bottom of a tank without crawling into it.) Because the tank is fiberglass it would be easy to raise in height, but the glass window is limited to about 30" high.

I'll see all the D.C./Balt froggers at your first meeting in December.

Dave


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Dave,

I just wanted to add that since this was previously a reef tank I would clean it out real well. Salts and metals can spell disaster for frogs over time. 

Keep us updated and add some photos PLEASE! 

Justin (the imposter)


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I'm jumping in late on this but large tanks are one of my favorite topics. I think there is much more to think about than numbers of frogs and some of this was discussed with sustainability. With a tank that large, you may have the opportunity to observe frogs at close to natural densities. If you you figure a square meter of territory per frog in the wild, then you would be looking at maybe 3 frogs in the tank. You could probably push that to 5 frogs and still have a fairly sustainable tank. If you stock the frogs at densities close to what is found in nature, then you have a really good chance of being able to produce enough plant biomass to support the insect biomass to support the frogs. Justin's suggestion of adding rotting fruit is a good one which would boost the tanks ability to produce food insects but I don't agree that you would have to sacrifice aesthetics. A tank that size could easily hide a few oranges or bananas without ever being visible. Also, you can always toss some leaf litter over the fruit which I think actually enhances the aesthetics because what you see is little insects crawling around in the leaf litter as you would in nature and you get to see much more natural feeding behaviors by the frogs. 

As for specific recommendations, I would start with a single species and only add a few frogs. I would actually add no more frogs than you would put in a 20 gal. tank. You can always add more frogs later if you like but again, stocking the frogs at very low densities would give you the opportunity to observe things that are not possible in smaller tanks with higher densities. I personally don't have any problem with someone starting with a very large tank for learning dart frogs. IF you can produce the food volume you need to seed the tank, then you will find the volume of the tank very forgiving. As far as mixing species, you would probably be able to do it successfully in this size tank but I wouldn't do it right off the start. I think it's really important to learn each species you keep individually before mixing so you can more easily recognize signs of stress or abnormal behavior.

As far as seeding the tank, I would seed it with some good forest loam. That is going to provide the highest diversity of soil arthropods you could hope for. You might get a few undesirables like snails or millipedes but in a tank that size, I wouldn't worry about it.

If you do decide to mix species later on, it is important not to create hybrids as others have mentioned. Basically, you don't want to mix species within the following groups: tinc group (auratus, azureus, leucomelas, tinctorious, glactanotus?, castaneoticus?), Phyllobates group, histrionicus group (granuliferous, histrionicus, pumilio), and the quinquivittatus group (imitator, ventrimaculatus, reticulatus, fantasticus, intermedius, and the many similar species). That's a quick list off the top of my head so I'm sure I left many out.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

If the Viv were oriented the tall way, maybee you could put a small banana tree, or something like that in there, to supply insect food, plus they look cool!


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2004)

*update?*

any progress or decisions being made. i am ver interested in this buid. please keep us posted. 

Landon


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

What exactly is forest loam and where can I get some?


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## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

I was just thinking about possible frog combos. Excluding that you're new to the hobby (the frogs aren't so hard to care for as the food , but some people are uncomfortable with "newbies" getting some of the frogs i'll mention) here's my ideas, combos of:
Pumilio, vents/fants/non eggfeeder thumb, tincs(one species of tinc)
non-egg feeder thumb, tincs (one species of tinc)
Pumilio, thumb, leuc/auratus, terriblis(spelling?)
Tincs, terriblis
Some kind of combo of that, anyways school bell just rung gotta go .


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2004)

Justin, Brent, Brian, Landon et. al.,

Thanks for all the good advice. Here's the update so far. I 've decided to use the forest loam, together with some mosses I've rescued. I hope this will provide plenty of arthopods and insects for some native plankton. 

I've been collecting plants and forest loam and mixing it with leaf litter for my soil. Soon I'll be making my own soil from sand, dry manure, peat moss and potting soil. Vivarium Concepts has been generous in helping me with viv design. Some of the design ideas right now are putting a cliff in the middle of the tank, givng me two more surfaces to plant on while caves and holes allow frog passage, and planting dendrobium orchids in a miniature "forest". I don't know how many water features I will have yet.

For species, I'm going to start with leucs until I gain more experience, or until my impulse upon seeing a new frog makes the money jump right of my pocket. If I can resist my impulses to buy the pretty specimen if front of me, I may progress to this kind of order: leucs, auratus, galacs, terrribilis, pumilio. But knowing me, in a few months my frogs list will probably be completely different than this list.

Soon I'll post a "before" pic of a cleaned out reef tank.

Dave


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I was wondering how things were going. I can't wait to see that thing! You should be documenting this with a digital camera...I want to see some pics at the Mid-Atlantic Dendro Group meeting in about a week! Oh by the way, are you bringing some food or snacks? If so, post it on our sticky thread in the Lounge!

See you then!


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## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

Just to note, all the species i mentioned before wont (99% sure) cross breed whereas leucs/auratus will and i don't know about galacts. Just kinda mentioning it because you put it in your post of progression.


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## k2bordr03 (Jul 15, 2004)

I hate to burst your bubble, but a 500 gallon viv just isnt realistic for you. you might have had fish in the past but dart frogs are a whole new world. even if you could culture the springtails and enough food(which would be tons of cash for a tank that size) you havent had any experiance with these animals. that is the key that you are missing. Even some of the most avid keepers dont keep over 250 gallons. just not practical. you would be lucky to ever see the frogs and god knows how many are alive. to me its just a waste of money and an idea that just sprang into a beginners head. I dont mean to upset you its just that you should really downsize the viv, not just for monetary reasons but for the ability to enjoy these fascinating creatures.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I think a project this size is very risky...I couldn't imagine doing it myself. Having said that, I agree that Dave will have his hands completely full with his 500 gallon monster of a tank, but he is going about it very slowly (no frogs yet - he is going to get a few to raise in smaller tanks to acquire the nessasary skills that are Dart specific). Right now he is more concerned with gaining knowledge and getting a handle on providing a sustainable food source! Plus, he is part of the Mid-Atlantic Dendro Group meeting this Friday. I hope that the group will cover and adopt this project to help him out.



k2bordr03 said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but a 500 gallon viv just isnt realistic for you. you might have had fish in the past but dart frogs are a whole new world. even if you could culture the springtails and enough food(which would be tons of cash for a tank that size) you havent had any experiance with these animals. that is the key that you are missing. Even some of the most avid keepers dont keep over 250 gallons. just not practical. you would be lucky to ever see the frogs and god knows how many are alive. to me its just a waste of money and an idea that just sprang into a beginners head. I dont mean to upset you its just that you should really downsize the viv, not just for monetary reasons but for the ability to enjoy these fascinating creatures.


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

Well, i have had some experience with setting up some pretty large enclosures, in the middle of setting up a 150 azureus display....i think that you are wrong in saying that Dave has no experience....i would argue that someone with a few years under his belt in reef keeping has a huge headstart even over someone who has kept darts. There are some very important rules in animal husbandry that supercede individual species experience. Like Brent has mentioned before me, this tank could be a rare opportunity to observe these animals in close to natural densities. So, on the contrary, I think that this could be an opportunity to "really" see these frogs. I would personally not hesitate for a second to build a tank this size and If it were me I would probably follow Brent's suggestion and go with one species of dart and really watch them. You have great opportunity to build a tank that would support all elements of the frogs reproductive behavior and can be accomplished with minimal energy input (atleast food input im sure it will be a pretty penny to light this puppy). Raising frogs in a 10 gallon and raising them in a 500 gallon will show a vast difference in potential insitu prey establishment. My best advise is use what you have learned from your reef hobby as much as possible, look at the frogs as an accent on the whole system and you will be rewarded greatly. Ben

oh something else that has not been mentioned is the lighting situation...with a tank that shallow you may have lit with straight compacts but maybe you had some MH as well....what are you running? something to think of now is a good way to cool those lights, fish tanks are a bit more forgiving as far as spreading and dissipating the heat....ben


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Sorry k2bordr03 I'm going to have to agree with Dave and a few others comment. This is a very unique opportunity and will make for a spectacular conversation piece. True, fish are one thing, but saltwater fish constitute a whole world of maintenance issues. If Dave has been able to hold his own with salt water, then I am sure he is patient enough to learn the tricks of the trade for darts. That being said there are a lot of tricks to learn. Just stick with this board and I think you'll be very happy. 


Dave-

I'm going to be finishing up my degree in landscape architecture..having said that I guess I don't have to explain my obvious love for plants. I work in the greenhouse at Rutgers U. (aside from selling my soul to this college) and would love to support your "little" project with a few plants if I make it down to the meeting. I have some larger bromeliad species that I think could go perfect as some larger specimen piece in the tanks landscape. Let me know if you are interested..if I make it down I'll be happy to bring some. 

Best of luck,

Mike C.

azureus
yellowbacks
citronella
leucs
lorenzo
patricia
vents
intermedius
imitators
bastimentos
almirante
bruno
retics
golden mantela

and a partridge in a pear tree


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2004)

K2bordr03, Ben and Mike C.

Thanks for the input and critique. Reef tanks taught me to keep a high ratio of natural food to stocking density, and I think this theory transfers to frogs. True, I will not see darts as often as in a small tank, but it's nice to know that their behavior in such an ecosystem (even hiding behavior) is closer to their natural behavior. And the opposite may happen, darts timid in small enclosures may roam more freely given the space. Only time will tell.

If I keep fruit and feeding dishes in the same places, I hope the frogs will come into the open. Nor do I think food will be so expensive, I calculated a homemade brew of FF media (substituting carrot juice and peaches for water and applesause), and a gallon jug of media cost 50 cents. 

Ben, because the tank is in an open closet the two 250 watt metal halides don't build up heat as if they were enclosed in a box above the tank. Also, the sump is located above the tank and the metal halides warm the sump water in my cool basement without heaters. The large surface area of the sump causes a lot of evaporation. I use sodium lights there for a plant growth refugium. With the reef tank I used a 4" fan only in summer, but only experimentation will let me find optimum venting.

Mice C, thanks for your offer of plants, I'll take the help and compensate you for the time. Alex at Customecos just purchased a greenhouse full of miniature orchids and I will place a big order with him sometime after the Christmas rush. I've also been an avid gardner for years and think another gardening theory applies here --"Grow good soil and the plants will take care of themselves". In this case, I hope a good viv is insurance for having good frogs, presuming I follow the rest of the good advice on this board.

Sorry for the long post.
Dave Willmore


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

k2bordr03 said:


> I hate to burst your bubble, but a 500 gallon viv just isnt realistic for you. you might have had fish in the past but dart frogs are a whole new world. even if you could culture the springtails and enough food(which would be tons of cash for a tank that size) you havent had any experiance with these animals. that is the key that you are missing. Even some of the most avid keepers dont keep over 250 gallons.


I really disagree with this. I'm just curious about how many people who think that a very large vivarium is not practical actually have any experience with them? It has been my experience that very large vivaria stocked lightly with predators are MUCH more forgiving than traditional small vivaria. You name the parameter: temp, light, moisture, food, etc. and a large viv is going to provide a lot more choices and more safeguards than a small viv. Large vivs are more diverse so there tends to be a range of temps, light, moisture, etc. compared with a small viv that tends to be uniform. Suppose you get a heat spell. A large viv takes longer to heat up and will retain cool pockets much longer than a small viv, thus increasing the odds the inhabitants can survive the ordeal. Food is no different. It is much more difficult for a few frogs to hunt a springtail population to extinction in a really large viv like they can in a small one. Fruit flies tend to persist a lot longer too and you can set up areas where the ff can actually reproduce inside their viv. My largest viv is only the equivalent of about 100 US gallons but it always has bugs crawling around in it despite the fact that on average I probably toss fewer insects in there than in my smaller tanks. The ability to feed a large viv has more to do with the ratio of predator to prey biomass as anything else.

The only real risks involved in such a large setup are the amount of money spent, and the danger that once it's all set up, you will wish you had done things differently. But as for being able to sustain frogs in there? Piece of cake.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2004)

I really agree with Brent (as usual). My largest that I had frogs in was the same size, and I would only feed weekly. I had a ton of springtails and whatnot in there, and would just throw a ton of flies in weekly. I loved the dispersal of food and having the frogs eat when they ran across stuff. That would be my ideal system of things. Perhaps that will be when I retire-- just wall sized vivariums.
j


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

I'm another fan of the large style display tanks. I'm not really into having a ton of small breeding tanks.

I, also, agree that maintaining a reef tank is far more time consuming and taxing then a vivarium. I spend much more time on the maintance of the water portion of my paludarium then I do the land side.

Tim


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2004)

Coming from reefkeeping, I would also agree that fellow reefers come into the hobby with a large amount of information and upkeep experience (to be honest, I think a decent reef has MUCH more that needs to be taken care of a than even a 'complicated' viv).

I say go for it...


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Very good point


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> Coming from reefkeeping, I would also agree that fellow reefers come into the hobby with a large amount of information and upkeep experience (to be honest, I think a decent reef has MUCH more that needs to be taken care of a than even a 'complicated' viv).
> 
> I say go for it...


I agree. In my experience, if anything, reefkeepers come in to PDF with too MUCH knowledge which is not necessarily a bad thing. The two things I see confused the most between vivaria and aquaria is that aquarists don't appreciate how much more efficient a standard naturalistic vivarium is at cycling nitrogen and other nutrients. This can lead to overconcern about filtering etc. that isn't necessary in a good viv. The second oversight is that aquarists often fail to consider that frogs are not living emmersed in a liquid substrate so their exposure to nitrates, etc., and other toxins is much different from a fish or invertebrate living and breathing in the liquid substrate that is also the solvent for toxins. These two things tend to make aquarists in general more cautious and meticulous than they really need to be. The upshot is that they make excellent, if somewhat anal, froggers.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2004)

People,People, if people in costarica can keep them in greenhouses and live, so can you! All it needs is a year to 110% settle, and i think youre good to go.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2004)

Well we have much more closed ecosystems than a greenhouse. I've visited most of them in Costa Rica, and there is an abundance of other fauna that comes in. They often lay out bananas, which brings in flies, there are tons of ants present, not to mention how many billion Collembola already in the soil. I would agree with you that a well cycled terrarium (where you mention a year) would definitely help it out. I would say with enough spring tails seeded, and some fruit/veggies in some places, you will be good to go within say two to three months.
j


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2004)

Dave,
youve inspire me to set up a large scale PDF habitat. i found a used 120 gallon aquarium (48x24x24) with otwo holes drilled in the back. im getting it for a steal. ill be about 3-4 months behind you on fabrication, so i cant wait to see what kind of set up (plants, wood, etc...) you use for the display.

Landon


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2004)

I was at a wholesale saltwater fish aquarium supply place they had a few 120 gallon tanks. I really Like the size/proportions of that tank. I think it'd be really nice for frogs and fun tank to landscape. Most the tanks I see don't seem to have enought floor space. 

Be sure to take some pictures when your done with that. 
I saw some really odd tanks also that looked like they could be interesting a 33xlong 4'x 12"x13" or something like that. I guess it would be nice for a four foot rack, and "leaf litter" frogs. 


-Tad


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2004)

Im going to try to post some pics on my 50 gallon in a few months, if i forget, and my 75 gallon in 1/5 of a year, if i get it done. But anyways, you can get a culture of ants in a 500 gallon, providing you dont care if they get out, and you can make some large cultures of fruitflies, with a little hole going to the tank.  Or maybe ill post a pic of my mowhack. If i dont forget. ;-)


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

Dave,

Any update? How is the tank coming?

Also, when do we get to see a picture?

Tim


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2005)

Tim,

I'm still getting materials together before trying to lay out the whole background at the same time. I've got some basic ideas in mind but need a lot of refinement. I haven't posted a before pic because I'm just too inept to take a digital photo, attach it to a post and send it in.

Dave Willmore


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2005)

*s*

I've kept that 150 gallon tank going for a year plus on the first stint, and after moving it (and tearing it down to NOTHING) its been running for about 5 months or so. 

Large viviaria are awesome. I have only 5 leucs in there now, but hopefully they will fill the tank on their own! OF those 5 leucs, I almost ALWAYS see all of them out. Keep in mind, in a tank that big, they are going to feel secure and natural. They'll be out all the time lookin for food. 

Good forethought on the depth though! That is my problem. To get to the bottom of the deep area, I have to get a chair and go armpit deep to reach it, and then its only with the tips of my fingers. And I'm 6'5"!!!






















I think large tanks are really nice and they require VERY little maintenance once they are set up. BUT, they can hold a large number of frogs. Those large number of frogs will eat the natural fauna fairly fast, so dont count on that part. Start some cultures and watch for mold!! :shock:


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2005)

Matt,

That is a beautiful viv and quite inspiring. I agree about the tank depth being no more than one can reach, I'm 6'2" and only have an arm reach of about 30". Some have expressed dismay that my tank is 9' long and 36" deep but only 30" high.

I like your back wall that gives a lot of vertical area for the frogs, as well as allowing you to view the tank from both sides of the long axis.

Because my tank is built into the wall like a TV, and can only be seen from the front, I'm leaning toward having three of these vertical areas built up the back wiith waterfalls that merge run together into the pond. And I'm borrowing a great idea from Tim (of Tim's viv) and planting many of the bottom plants in a waterproof fiberglass tray which is sunk level into the substrate. This keeps the roots (especially orchids) from getting waterlogged and allows an aquarium depth all the way up to the moss/leaf litter surface. 

A separate bulkhead fitting in the planting tray keeps spray or waterfall/stream leaks from building up in the tray area, and the tray helps keep the pond water more clear by reducing tannins. If you haven't seen pictures of Tim's viv, try to look him up.

Dave


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2005)

dave willmore said:


> Tad and J. Yeager,
> 
> Sorry if I gave the impression of a "self-sustaining" habitat, I only want enough wild plankton to supplement the regular food. Your advice is good to keep some rotting fruit in the tank for flies, just to the point that the smell doesn't become offensive. Which isopods do you recommend? Sow bugs (rolly polies as I called them as a kid) are common in the midatlantic area (Wash, D.C.) where I live. What is the possibility of parasite introduction if I seed the tank with forest compost and leaf humus from my area? It should be filled with small food organisms.
> 
> Dave


you run the risk of a bacteria overload on the pathenogenic side, and ending your nitrogen cycle. sow bugs are fine to turn waste into plant food
but you need to fix your nitrogen or it's not used. you would need to introduce about a gallon in spray form over a week - each month to keep things in balance. 

wild soils are good. but what happens when you dump a few centapede eggs in there? or if you have some lungless salamander eggs by chance actually hatch? clean your soil good by hand to check for eggs and such.

i would just add a buck of oak leaves and such...but all in all, this sounds like a large task for a zoo that isn't used to building vivariums.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2005)

bbrock said:


> k2bordr03 said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to burst your bubble, but a 500 gallon viv just isnt realistic for you. you might have had fish in the past but dart frogs are a whole new world. even if you could culture the springtails and enough food(which would be tons of cash for a tank that size) you havent had any experiance with these animals. that is the key that you are missing. Even some of the most avid keepers dont keep over 250 gallons.


I really disagree with this. I'm just curious about how many people who think that a very large vivarium is not practical actually have any experience with them? quote]
***
I agree, this is a good thing. there are a lot of conciderations that need to be well planned before contruction, plant purchases, products and so on.
on big plus is that you can create a better more realistic landscape with fake butriss roots or a back wall that looks like strangler fig. 
or just keep it in a mico size and build one of the coolest water features! wow. i am excited about seeing a "newbie" build their first tank larger then some other folks here. my largerst was 180. and it was so fun! 

just be sure to do your due diligence and learn everything you can before starting. i suggest learning about bacteria - micro fauna and balancing humidity and heat. water is one thing indeed but a terrarium is a different beast. i do think that a 100 gallon would be good to practice the landscape techiniques, learning the tricks to a real false bottom; not egg crate with leca but a functional and esthetic system. and then once you've tweaked the bugs free, apply that to a bigger tank. what a nightmare to have to take it all down becuase you forgot to tighten your bulk heads deep below the substrate and found a nice leak...

also, for a species i think would do great, here is a link:
http://www.saurian.net/htm/info_thumbnailcare.htm

maybe i'm wrong, but all i've ever read is that these would be good in a large set up like what you're planning.

here are some images: http://www.tropical-experience.nl/morphguide_thumbnails.php?menu=1&submenu=3


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2005)

*t*

First, let me say thanks. The tank visible from 2 sides is the only way I could think to do it and it works well. 30" is great for leucs (I think I read thats what you were leaning towards!). They love the "off the ground" sleeping areas in my tank. Virtually all of them sleep under the moss on the top of the "stump" in the middle of it. 

The one thing to remember is proper planning. Thats it. 

A tank that big you dont want to redo. A tank that big you dont want to have problems. A tank that big is going to be a pain in the ass if there is a problem and you will lose the joy for the frogs. 

As long as everything in the tank works. In other words, make sure the waterfalls dont seep into parts you dont want wet. Make sure everything you use will last as long as you want it to. How are you going to change the water? 

I would assume that a tank like that which was previously set up with a reef would have metal halide lighting. Just watch your temperatures. 

I would still recommend setting up a smaller test tank for a few months just to see what problems you might run into with your ideas and you'll have a chance to fix them without tearing your beautiful huge tank apart. I know you have experience with reefs, I do too. I'm still glad I set up ....... umm.....I've set up 4 or 5 tanks before I set up my big one (including the big one the first time around!!). I learned a LOT from those tanks. 

The most valuable stuff to learn is things that most of us may know, but take for granted and never discuss or think about. Those you will have to learn on your own. Best of luck and keep us updated.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2005)

Devon Nicholson wrote 

"you run the risk of a bacteria overload on the pathenogenic side, and ending your nitrogen cycle. sow bugs are fine to turn waste into plant food
but you need to fix your nitrogen or it's not used. you would need to introduce about a gallon in spray form over a week - each month to keep things in balance."

Devon,

I am confused about this statement, probably because my biology background is not as complete as yours. I don't see why the pathenogenic bacteria would necessarily outbalance the beneficial bacteria in a large setup, unless you're saying that a very large amount of rotten fruit and a high sowbug population will convert it too quickly. I only intend to have enough fruit to attract the fruit flies down to the surface of the viv and concentrate them for frogs, not keep lots of FF media lying around the tank. 

Regarding the fixing of nitrogen, my uneducated guess is that the system will balance itself. In a densely planted tank I'll be adding nitrogen (flies and other live foods) every day and harvesting leaves off the plants and from the refugium. While my approach isn't "scientifically precise", I'd guess that a well lit viv will have strong plant growth to cycle nitrogen quickly. I think I'll find out when filamentous algae start to choke out leafy plants in the refugium. If algae growth is very fast, I have too much nitrogen.

When you say I'll need to introduce a gallon in spray form per month, do you mean a gallon of nitrogen? That seems high. I won't be adding nearly this much mass in the form of live foods, probably no more than a few ounces of food per month. Overall, I'd like to keep nitrogen levels low and hope that rapid plant growth will cycle it quickly.

Dave Willmore


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2005)

when you say rotting fruit, i see piles.

bacteria will compete with each other, good and bad. it's best to create IMO, a clean room type atmosphere with the introduction of a higher count
of hetatrophic or Benifical bacteria. Hetatrophic is like anerobic in that it will produce an inorganic waste; co2 not organic like pillbugs and worms. that is what helps fix the nirogen. 

LOL i would never say add nitrogen to anything! yikes!

bugs like bacteria will help.

if you need plants let me know. also, with a bit of banana on your fern roots to add in their growth you wouldn't need to dump rotten fruit in your tank. 

i don't know what you mean by keeping nitrogen levels low. i think you should get some books on growing plants, and learn about what they need both indoor plants and garden plants. i was nine when i read a book by Joan Lee Faust, Book of House Plants, ISBN 0-89104-002-1 and then ask some botanical gardens and green house groups about keeping plants alive.

also, a gallon per - was a reference to spraying a liquide mix of hetatrophic bacteria in. this would introduce enough to compete and starve the pathenogenic bacteria and create a "clean room" atmosphere for your vivarium.

***


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

With all due respect, I disagree with you on this Deven. I see no reason why rotting piles of fruit would increase "pathogenic" bacteria populations. Also, once the bacteria break down the nitrogen into ammonia or nitrate, the plants take that up directly and "fix" it. I posted recently on a "safe plant fertilizer" thread about how nitrogen cycles in a vivarium.

Bottom line, you should be able to set up the vivarium and forget about it as far as nitrogen cycling goes.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Hey Matt, the 150gl is coco/silicon backing?


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2005)

i understand. but not all plants fix nitrogen. also, from what i've learned,
too much sugar will increase the mold, which heta or good bacteria are so eager to eat, the kind i use, as bad bacteria. i think he would be feeding the bad bacteria from the left-to-decay fruit piles. 

I don't think it's a stand alone situation. the size of land, the number of plants, the fruit and expected humidity and fresh air that will possibly go into this size of tank - i feel - would overwhelm the system, prohibiting it to get a good start with out some help. IMO. you know more then i on this but i would still take the precaution and add something to compete with the bacteria. 

if the fruit are left, there is a point when the flies won't want it, as they are the first step in the materail breakdown right? the next is mold, then the spores from the mold could risk the health of the animals as it's still not 
determined to the extent of his "rotted piles". Could there also be a risk of
bacterial infections with that?

I think he would be better of with cultures below in the cabinet, running a 1/4" hose up through the false bottom via hole, and have that hose terminate with the hardscape, and thus he can culture safe healthy flies, they would crawl out towards the light and fresh air and thus feed his frogs.

Nitrogen. i am not sure what plants he's using but i also feel that if there are the right balance in the soil, and since not all plants can fix the nitrites to nitrates...he couls just add a non-ivasive (sp) clover. okay.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2005)

Deven,

Again I am confused. I use the words "fixing" and "cycling" of nitrogen loosely in terms of locking up waste ammonia, nitrite or nitrate into living plant tissue. I think you're using the term in the more scientific manner of fixing by legumes, perhaps that's why you recommend clover.

And sorry that my desire to grow natural plankton keeps getting interpreted as piles of rotten fruit. I mean to have some fruit slices there to keep fruit flies nearer to ground dwelling frogs cuisine and to encourage wild plankton, not so much to force my family to wear gas masks. I really don't care if it rots in place as long as the smell is minimal.

Finally, the beneficial bacteria that I am familiar with are nitrosomonas and nitrobacter, which are very common in garden soil. In the warm, moist conditions of a vivarium, I would guess that they will reproduce fast enough to reduce all the nitrogen available, and that the need for a gallon of beneficial bacteria won't be necessary. 

But I defer to people who know a lot more biology than I do. I studied biology back at a time when dinosaurs still roamed the earth.

Dave Willmore


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2005)

i guess i've been trained to stick to direct and detailed q&a...no worries. sounds like a great project.
as for the bacteria, we have a liquid with about 1000 species of hetatrophic bacteria that was designed for herps vivariums. from brine shimp was a need, research was done, then altered for slime coats on fish, and then amphibians. the history is longer then that but i truncated it for clearlifacation. it's used only for wetter vivariums as it's large concentration of sterile bacteria need the water to help disperce it. there are of course other ways, like a handful of back yard soil but i would use the above mentioned because of your tanks size, IMO. 
I only use it during set up in the soil and in the settling of the system.
then just once a month to help break things down again. any vivarium would be self supporting but our average tank sizes are 120 and 180 gallons. 

Your project sounds great and with your clearification, sounds do-able.

Deven


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Terra5 said:


> i understand. but not all plants fix nitrogen. also, from what i've learned,
> too much sugar will increase the mold, which heta or good bacteria are so eager to eat, the kind i use, as bad bacteria. i think he would be feeding the bad bacteria from the left-to-decay fruit piles.


Okay, I see the confusion. First, nitrogen fixation (and you used it correctly) is the process of transforming free nitrogen gas from the atmosphere into available nitrogen in the soil (ammonia or nitrate). True, most plants aren't nitrogen fixers and those that are (primarily legumes) rely on symbiosis with certain bacteria to fix nitrogen. Free living bacteria in the soil don't fix much nitrogen at all. But these are not really important issues in a viv because we don't really have to worry aobut getting nitrogen into the soil. We already do that when we feed the frogs. What is important is how nitrogen is cycled in the viv. Fungus and bacteria break down organic matter and consume the carbons (sugars) and nitrogen. This is called immobilization because they are locking up the nitrogen and carbon in their cells so it is "immobile" When the microbes die, the nitrogen is released into the soil where it becomes available for other microbes or organisms to consume. When it is released, it is "mobilized". Microbe population growth is largely controlled by the ration of carbon (sugars) to nitrogen because these are co-limiting nutrients. It's true that fungi tend to do better when the carbon to nitrogen ratio is very high which is why you see a flush of mold in new vivs or on a pile of rotting fruit. But there is nothing unhealthy about this as long as it is isolated to a relatively small area in the viv. Ultimately the rotting fruit will be broken into humus which helps build a rich and healthy soil. Actually, when you add leaf litter to a viv, you are doing the same thing, the only difference is that the sugar in the fruit is more readily digestible than that in the leaf litter so it gets decomposed faster which is why you notice the mold. But I guarantee that mold is growing in all that leaf litter too, just at a slower pace so you don't notice. Mold is a good thing. 



> Nitrogen. i am not sure what plants he's using but i also feel that if there are the right balance in the soil, and since not all plants can fix the nitrites to nitrates...he couls just add a non-ivasive (sp) clover. okay.


All the clover would do is fix nitrogen from the air and pump it into the soil so you are adding nitrogen to the system. We all know the nitrogen cycle of ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate. But the thing is that plants, all plants, take up ammonia and nitrate directly so they lock up the nitrogen before the bacteria even have to. That's why I so often say that vivaria are better at cycling nitrogen than aquaria because all those plant roots are constantly slurping up the bad nitrogen as soon as it becomes available in a viv.

This is just a lot of techincal mumbo jumbo to say that if you start with a good organic soil, add some plants, and give it time to settle, you shouldn't ever have to think about the nitrogen cycle again and you can throw your old bananas and oranges in the viv without worrying about terrible things happening.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

i agree that mold is a good thing. I also agree and enjoyed your post about how it all works...in the real world with sunlight. but in a vivarium
is there enough uv to help the breakdown or is that needed? a slice of bannana ever foot or so is good, i do that, if the vivarium has the leaf liter
to conceal it. 

now, with the waste produced, organic like with some bacteria, and worms - bugs etc versus the in-organic waste or co2. which is better?
I've been etched with the idea of using two sources of micro fauna, pill bugs and bacteria introduction. in smaller systems, outside dirt, but 
we're talking about a larger; i don't the square foot size, but even if it where 8'L x 4'W, that's a lot of ground to balance out. how much time before it would be stable - meaning level pH at the soil, heatlhy plant growth through out and stable humidty in the soil? 

but landscaping this would be fun.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Terra5 said:


> i agree that mold is a good thing. I also agree and enjoyed your post about how it all works...in the real world with sunlight. but in a vivarium
> is there enough uv to help the breakdown or is that needed?


The processes are not light dependent. UV can physically breakdown many compounds but that is not really connected to the biological breakdown. The only difference light makes is that it drives the photosynthesis of the plants which compete with the fungus and bacteria for nutrients.



> now, with the waste produced, organic like with some bacteria, and worms - bugs etc versus the in-organic waste or co2. which is better?


You get both regardless of how it happens. Organic is simply a molecule containing carbon and hydrogen. These are the sugars all the critters use for energy. As they break down organic materials, they take out some of the energy of those sugars and metabolize it which most commonly is respired as CO2 but they also create organic waste which then gets broken down further. So the sugars in the original material get broken down into forms with less and less energy in them until what's left is humic acid which is an organic sugar that has so little energy that almost nothing can live off of it. It lasts for centuries and give the nice loamy texture to forest soils. Now the inorganic CO2 that is respired is, of course, what the plants suck up and use the energy of light to convert back into organic sugars that starts the whole cycle over. You can't really say one is better than the other, they are both part of the process.



> I've been etched with the idea of using two sources of micro fauna, pill bugs and bacteria introduction. in smaller systems, outside dirt, but
> we're talking about a larger; i don't the square foot size, but even if it where 8'L x 4'W, that's a lot of ground to balance out. how much time before it would be stable - meaning level pH at the soil, heatlhy plant growth through out and stable humidty in the soil?


What the bugs do is quickly break the organic materials into smaller particles which exposes more surface area for the bacteria and fungi to attach to. This speeds the rate of nutrient turnover so things dissapear faster. They are really nothing more than leaf shredders.

The time taken to stabilize the soil wouldn't be any different for a huge viv as it would for a small one because the system develops on a per unit volume basis. Of course if you seed with invertebrates, it will take longer for them to reach carrying capacity in a larger vivarium unless you seed with more bugs to begin with. But the bugs are such a minor part of the nutrient cycling process that it doesn't matter. The invertebrates aren't really required to stabilize the system but they do make things work more efficiently when they are there.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2005)

RIght On! Got that David? You rock Brent, Thnx for clearing it up and such. i know what my next class is...again...LOL


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

Dave,

How about some teaser pictures? Is the construction underway yet? Give us an update.

Tim


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2005)

Hey Tim,

I don't have any teaser pictures yet, because I'm in the middle of a more crazy project. I'm building some racks of about 30 tanks in total, and will get to the big tanks once the rack is finished and filled with frogs. I'll post pictures of the rack in progress as soon as I take some pics. I was looking forward to talking to you again at the MAD meeting, hope your baby is doing well. The real baby, that is, not the vivarium baby.

Dave


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