# We need to act, it is up to us!



## Nick_ (Mar 24, 2008)

I cannot stand it any longer. Please help me kill, destroy....errrm educate the people of facebook.

The word Bioactive needs to put to rest. It makes zero sense.
“My bioactive vivarium with live plants” is akin to “ I drive my automobile vehicle that moves me forwards with wheels”

Please don’t be that friend that smiles and lies to your friends to avoid issues (in some cases that is understandable, but this is too much.....

We live in a culture now that tries to be unique and self expressive over actually researching anything. People throw in the towel after a 6 minute google search...they need our help for frogs sake!!!!!!!!!!!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking us to do....


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Catch Phrase keeping and one-factor encapsulated ideologies poison development.

Its a problem.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The wisest thing I've ever heard about 'bioactive':



S2G said:


> [...] bio-active. Its such an overused term for marketing and it works. Hell your doorknob is bioactive.


As for this:


Nick_ said:


> they need our help for frogs sake!!!!!!!!!!!


we are here and ready to help. Newcomers to DB too often come packing a self-fulfilling prophesy that they'll be talked down to, berated, chided, and they see that in our replies even when it isn't there. 

My favorite lightbulb joke can be adapted to this forum (well, to all of life, actually):

Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change.


As for this:


Nick_ said:


> educate the people of facebook.


"...much more difficult than weaving a rope out of sand..." -- Borges, The Circular Ruins


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## Nick_ (Mar 24, 2008)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you're asking us to do....


I think everyone on the boarDs should be on the bioactive social media pages helping with questions and letting people know that the vivariums we have been keeping as froggers for decades are all in the same category of glass boxes full of dirt and chlorophyl. 

All the people that stumble upon the FB groups for bioactive are essentially being robbed of the decades of experience and information from forums such as this.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Nick_ said:


> I think everyone on the boarDs should be on the bioactive social media pages helping with questions and letting people know that the vivariums we have been keeping as froggers for decades are all in the same category of glass boxes full of dirt and chlorophyl.
> 
> All the people that stumble upon the FB groups for bioactive are essentially being robbed of the decades of experience and information from forums such as this.


Oh, I should go _there_?

Ha, ha, ha....hahahaha.....ho,ho...he,he....

I'd rather eat three month old fruit fly culture scrapings.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

Nick_ said:


> I think everyone on the boarDs should be on the bioactive social media pages helping with questions and letting people know that the vivariums we have been keeping as froggers for decades are all in the same category of glass boxes full of dirt and chlorophyl.
> 
> All the people that stumble upon the FB groups for bioactive are essentially being robbed of the decades of experience and information from forums such as this.


I am active on two facebook groups for dart frogs, I point people at dendroboard when folks ask for information on where to begin research. 

I am all for helping people through any misunderstanding they may have but I feel like this ship has sailed. The dictionary defines bioactive as "having an effect on a living organism". 

But just from reading a truly crazy amount of posts on facebook, on here, and elsewhere the word bioactive has become a 'term of art' meaning a term that has a definition different from its dictionary definition when used within a certain context. When regarding vivariums bioactive means (to the best of my understanding) a vivarium that has both plants and bugs as clean up crew. 

Not exactly a lot more involved but there it is. The truth though is that it SOUNDS cool, so yeah, as has been pointed out its now a marketing thing /shrug 

It doesn't bother me but I am coming to the froggy world after people have been saying 'bioactive' for a few years now, so maybe its different for folks who have been around longer?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Oh, I should go _there_?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ew, just ew, man. I lost a wee bit of respect for you on offering to eat that... (I kid, I kid, mad respect for you SM).

Eh, I'm not going to another web location to try to educate people.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I remember running into one stylishly tatted young lady on a video giving the run down to the masses, explaining how Keeping Bioactive is better because you do less maintenance, because of knowing about beneficial bacteria and the roles of the Clean Up Crews and other intelligent stuff, and that if you look at the world around you, and peoples jobs, the smarter people dont do hard jobs where they clean, and they get paid more and are more valuable to society than the manual labor type people.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Oh shoot I forgot to spell it the cool way..*Bioactiv*

So Lit!


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## Capsized (May 5, 2020)

I'm fairly new to the hobby and this board.
What is the OP asking here? What exactly is the threat to the frogs? 

Sent from my LG-H871S using Tapatalk


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Capsized said:


> I'm fairly new to the hobby and this board.
> What is the OP asking here? What exactly is the threat to the frogs?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H871S using Tapatalk


I don't think most of us have figured this out yet either.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Capsized said:


> I'm fairly new to the hobby and this board.
> What is the OP asking here?


I think the point is that the "bioactive" discussions on FB are full of culpably ignorant people and knowledgable folks from DB should go save them, along with a questionable assumption that most ignorance is simply a matter of a lack of information.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I think the point is that the "bioactive" discussions on FB are full of culpably ignorant people and knowledgable folks from DB should go save them, along with a questionable assumption that most ignorance is simply a matter of a lack of information.


I recently deleted FB after 14 years or whatever it's been; just prior to that I had a long and detailed exchange in a group wherein I explained how that marketing term can be misleading and would be very difficult to execute within the context of high-metabolism, relatively large colubrids from semi-arid regions with limited resources. 

(I have *a lot* of experience with reptiles.) 

The person was polite, did the online equivalent of smiling and nodding, said "Yes of course" and proceeded to do exactly what they were intending to do all along.

There are a lot of people online that ask for 'advice' but what they want is confirmation. I don't know if that's a social media thing or the result of incredibly effective marketing or what.

Not gonna lie, at that point I just give up.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Oh, I should go _there_?
> 
> Ha, ha, ha....hahahaha.....ho,ho...he,he....
> 
> I'd rather eat three month old fruit fly culture scrapings.


My exact thoughts....put far more eloquently than I could have.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Fahad said:


> There are a lot of people online that ask for 'advice' but what they want is confirmation. I don't know if that's a social media thing or the result of incredibly effective marketing or what.


Couldn't agree with you more...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Fahad said:


> I recently deleted FB after 14 years or whatever it's been; just prior to that I had a long and detailed exchange in a group wherein I explained how that marketing term can be misleading and would be very difficult to execute within the context of high-metabolism, relatively large colubrids from semi-arid regions with limited resources.


Yes, although rather than 'difficult to execute' (which is true, of course), I think the more important point is that it would not lead to improved outcomes relative to established methodology; there is no motivation for 90% of the "bioactive" craze beyond novelty.



Fahad said:


> There are a lot of people online that ask for 'advice' but what they want is confirmation. I don't know if that's a social media thing or the result of incredibly effective marketing or what.


I think that is just a human thing. Social media simply amplifies it, and makes it more apparent. Also, DBers are pretty bad at giving unwarranted confirmation, to the chagrin of some people.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, although rather than 'difficult to execute' (which is true, of course), I think the more important point is that it would not lead to improved outcomes relative to established methodology; there is no motivation for 90% of the "bioactive" craze beyond novelty.


Right, I remember touching on that, although it was very probably more long-winded (have you met me? LOL) ... 



Socratic Monologue said:


> I think that is just a human thing. Social media simply amplifies it, and makes it more apparent. Also, DBers are pretty bad at giving unwarranted confirmation, to the chagrin of some people.


I concur.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

I have repeatedly stated that I hate the term. I'm pretty moderate when it comes to a lot of my views, but this is not one of them. We have been doing things the way the "bioactive" crowd has just caught on to for years. Only they do it stupider and with flawed reasoning behind their ways. I checked out a couple of pages a while ago to see what the hubub was about and offended by what I read.

I saw nitwits saying the more diverse the enclosure the better "since diversity better approximates nature. More species present represents a more complete natural chain". This may be true in a nature preserve, but it couldn't be further from the truth in a small glass box.

I saw people advocate taking soil from various places outdoors was preferable to a substrate such as abg due to the hitchhikers contained within, without any care of where the soil was collected, or what hitchhikers may be present. Many advocate not cleaning or taking precautions with regard to sterilizing from using stuff from outdoors. The advice sounded like a nice recipe for chytrid or any other number of problems. Furthermore, the "diversity methodology" essentially justifies new hobbyist and even some experienced hobbyists vision of setting up mixed species enclosures. 

And everything has it's own micro environment. Including my toilet seat. Should I add dung beetles to my bathroom habitat to handle the waste since the bacteria colonies aren't diverse enough? 

Sorry for the poorly worded rant. I'm at work and don't have the time to connect the dots on my thoughts and reasonings regarding bioactive. I just believe it is lame beyond all measure.


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## Capsized (May 5, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I think the point is that the "bioactive" discussions on FB are full of culpably ignorant people and knowledgable folks from DB should go save them, along with a questionable assumption that most ignorance is simply a matter of a lack of information.


Oh social media is indeed full of misinformed misinformers. 

Sent from my LG-H871S using Tapatalk


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its unfortunate when a term with an actual definition gets popularized like this.

It makes it difficult to use the term ever again in its true sense. Ive seen it happen with other words and its irritating when a term would be useful but because it now has an insufferable coating on it, you cant. 

If I ever use a word thats popular like that, know I mean it in the old, obscure, unpopular way.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Fahad said:


> The person was polite, did the online equivalent of smiling and nodding, said "Yes of course" and proceeded to do exactly what they were intending to do all along.


This is Dendroboard in 2020 except that they _demand_ information and are not polite when you give them anything except for what they wanted to hear in the first place.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I never seen different on any forum or other social media group for that mather.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> This is Dendroboard in 2020 except that they _demand_ information and are not polite when you give them anything except for what they wanted to hear in the first place.


I've seen a fair bit of that since I joined. The _demand_ thing must come straight from Facebook ... err ... 'culture' for lack of a better term. Saw that there a lot more.

As if there aren't people on the other end of those messages, just an amorphous, impersonal "Internet" that exists solely for instant gratification and soundbites.

People used to do actual research (yeah, I sound like a cranky old dude now -- and I'm not even *that* old but I'll give you cranky) ... now I see a lot of would-be hobbyists pop up and say:

SHOW ME YOUR SET-UPS or I'M DOING RESEARCH HOW DO I TAKE CARE OF THIS ANIMAL I JUST BOUGHT

So they haven't done any of the basic reading which is more readily available than ever. They have no specific questions. They expect strangers to take time out of their day to write them a textbook on the spot, and if they don't like what they see, move on to the next person until they get what they want to hear.

Obviously that's an extreme example, but it's not an insignificant number of people and makes me worry about not only the animals but where this hobby's going to wind up. It's no wonder that ignorant legislators and special interest groups have a field day with people like this setting a (loud) example.

I have nothing against beginners and understand it takes some time before you even know the right questions to ask, but I don't think I'm alone in noticing a really poor shift in attitude.

This is probably related to the hobby now expanding outside of its once much smaller niche due to social media, with more people comes more of what you don't want along with the good. I guess time will sort it out, just bothers me that it's not good for the animals.

To be fair I've seen a couple of veteran keepers act like total jerks on social media, too. Always makes me raise an eyebrow when grown adults think it's okay to be rude to strangers on the internet from the safety and comfort of their own home. The world's full of tough guys. Who knew?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Ah yikes, twinge of red here. But I know my 'emotional currency' is connection, and I dont start off being rude or wanting to. 

My problem is a low threshhold of grace with people who gather the consensus they ask for yet willfully choose the option of lesser animal life quality because it fits their space or energy level or other convenience factor. 

The other thing thats difficult to manage is when trying to explain a thing, a thing that one has worked with intimately for years and someone who is asking about said thing; wants to debate about the fundamentals of it, though they only became aware of it, like 3 weeks ago, or even 10 minutes. 

Its still good to share things as you never know how it will manifest in some other scenario with someone else reading in the future of its exposure. 

Keeping ones patience in check can help ensure the palatability of its reception. I type this as a reminder to myself.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Kmc said:


> Ah yikes, twinge of red here. But I know my 'emotional currency' is connection, and I dont start off being rude or wanting to.
> 
> My problem is a low threshhold of grace with people who gather the consensus they ask for yet willfully choose the option of lesser animal life quality because it fits their space or energy level or other convenience factor. [snip]


Everyone has their moments, but I was more referring to someone immediately being abrasive, sarcastic or outright rude to someone with whom they've never had any interaction with. 

At that point it's no longer about the hobby or the animals. Pseudo-anonymity and distance can bring out the worst in people.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Allow me to use the parlance of our times to repurpose two words; Defund bioactive.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tijl said:


> I never seen different on any forum or other social media group for that mather.


If you were referring to my comment, Tijl, it's sad because it didn't used to be that way here. I think it's only the last 3 or 4 years that people have become so demanding. It has really made me limit my participation, to be honest. I don't have the bandwidth to answer new people's questions only to have them tell me I am wrong. Sorry, OP, I certainly don't have the bandwidth to extend to all of social media. I appreciate you fighting the good fight, but all too often, it's pearls before swine. Remember - never fight with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

Mark


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## JackReidMarx (Jul 3, 2020)

Unfortunately I think the ship has sailed. As someone with more experience with chams I can't help but face-palm when I see all the new folks in the cham hobby being sold on "bioactive" setups when chams don't need it. There's no way it's less maintenance to use substrate and maintain microfauna colonies than standard cham husbandry. Chams are tricky enough for new folks so why make it more complicated? They covet likes, re-posts and shares of their "slice of rainforest", and there will always be someone who will find a way to profit off such motivations. 

That being said, these forces are much bigger than our hobby. While bemoaning them may reinforce our in-group identity and make us feel good, it probably won't help new hobbyists or the animals much.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I've said it before, 

content creators like Troy Golberg for example give and show the content PEOPLE want.. Not what FROGS need. Their buisnessmodel is based to grow or sell their product and this unfortunatly is not providing the information people need since they do not care about such content..

If you show (or tell) people what the frogs need or want, (well y'all know cause otherwise we would not been having topics like this..) they refuse this information because they have seen different from influencers and other media that showed amazing green and moist tanks!

This is exactly what is wrong in Europe with the 'standardized' frog tanks. Everyone want that perfect 'slice of nature', not the frog habitat with the ugly leaflitter for example..

Vivariums, frogs, fish or any other animals for that mather have become a luxury product in our world. They are not considered live animals and an important part of the ecosystem but rather a display indoor for our amusement.. Unfortunatly luxury products are also trow away products, so when it dies, replace it.. Just like flowers for example.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Just let it be. 

Humans operate on simple principles and there is not much you can do about it. Sometimes people try to fix how we speak or whatever but ultimately people are going to keep doing what they do. People need some word, a word to help them differentiate between keeping animals on largely inert disposable / high maintenance substrates and keeping them in soil with an ecosystem. Bioactive is what they came up with and it is now engrained and going to stick. No honestly unless you come up with a better word I dont think you are going to change anything, and even if you do you still might not change anything. 

A really relevant example of this is actually from our very own world. Poison dart frogs were once called poison arrow frogs, then and people would argue they were actually used on darts, this was early in the game. Then there was even a movement to strip dart from the name and call them poison frogs since only 1 or 2 species were known to be used with darts. But ultimately the mass market just stuck with poison dart frogs. It is what it is.You can invest a whole bunch of energy trying to change a word and it wont mean anything. Its better to put that energy toward better things, like just generally helping to make sure the frogs that are out there are best cared for. 

Language always has to keep changing and always will, thats how humans operate I wont dig into the psychology of that but its something that you just have to accept.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

JackReidMarx said:


> [snip]
> That being said, these forces are much bigger than our hobby. While bemoaning them may reinforce our in-group identity and make us feel good, it probably won't help new hobbyists or the animals much.


Countering marketing and social media's 'trend-of-the-week' with good information is all you can do. And hope that staying on-message will attract people who care, eventually. 

The way I see husbandry breaking down is:

1. What works for most people most of the time by eliminating variables to avoid problems over time, while giving the animals things they can use. 

There always seems to be "that guy" popping up to tell you what he's "done for years and never had a problem" and "look at my prolific, healthy charges". 

Well great, your Kung Fu is pretty good, but you can't expect everyone to replicate that successfully when they barely know how to culture fruit flies.

2. What doesn't work at all and will definitely kill your charges. 

3. What you can get away with for an indefinite period of time before something otherwise avoidable eventually goes wrong. A LOT of the questionable practices experienced keepers argue against here fall into this category.

I made mistakes years ago; my tanks weren't as well-ventilated as they are today and they were surely too wet. I got lucky and didn't have any problems, but if I'd continued in that vein for a decade I probably would have; or maybe my frogs would have soldiered on but had a less than ideal existence, which isn't cool for all the obvious reasons.

4. Highly experienced keepers in the position of being able to recognize issues and deal with them, in addition to having the time and inclination to monitor for those issues, sometimes making unusual choices.

That last one takes years of observation and learning. It doesn't come from a care-sheet and it requires resources a lot of people may not have. 

So in light of all this one just keeps explaining that there's a formula that builds a foundation for long-term success. 

I don't know, I suppose it's more about arguing *for* the better option instead of wasting your breath arguing *against* the latest trend.

(I need to go yell at some kids to get off my lawn.)


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I could not resist..


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## JackReidMarx (Jul 3, 2020)

I am nervous to post this perspective, but I think it's too important to not say anything. As a newcomer I think I can add to this. Here it goes:



Socratic Monologue said:


> Newcomers to DB too often come packing a self-fulfilling prophesy that they'll be talked down to, berated, chided, and they see that in our replies *even when it isn't there.*


It is there more often than I expected, even given my experience in other forums. I would assert DB has a great wealth of passion and expertise that in many ways surpasses other forums I've encountered. Hence I didn't stop at lurking. I've had very positive experiences on this board thanks especially to fishingguy, Socratic, Fahad, and pumilio among others . Great job. At the same time, this high level of expertise can lend itself to a certain abrasive haughtiness and down-talking. Is it a majority of experienced members, or have I experienced much of it directly? No, yet it's definitely noticeable. There's the much discussed tired expert-demanding novice dynamic but there's also an expert-expert dynamic I've observed in which egos are very fragile while simultaneously expecting newcomers, even kids to have robust tolerance for abrasiveness, down-talking and sarcasm. There's a tension there and room for improvement on our part IMHO.

Are people generally sensitive, seeking validation over evidence? Absolutely. Has instant gratification made people more unreasonable? Sure. Yet, are these forces likely to change soon? I think not. For the sake of our ecothermic friends it's better to err on the side of inclusion, grace and humility - that is not to say it is easy. The right thing usually isn't. It's obviously bad for the hobby if people are afraid to ask questions, especially those most prone to mistakes. Dispelling myths and answering basic questions ad nauseam sucks but it is better than suffering frogs - it is easier said than done.

Do I now appreciate the time when the hobby was smaller? Damn right, I loved reptiles and amphibians out of the womb before it was cool but it's not about me or the fad folks on social media. It's about the animals and our responsibility to them. This must come above all else, even frustration with uninformed or willfully ignorant humans. You catch more flies -have more influence- with honey than vinegar. I want this board's knowledge to have more influence relative to the Youtubers. We can't compete with their videos and marketing savvy so we cannot afford to be haughty and exclusive. 

If you have the bandwidth to help the fad folks, please go for it!! There is always a place for constructive and honest feedback. However, adding fuel to the fire or turning new folks away from the knowledge here because you had a bad day or have a need to feel smart is selfish and bad for the frogs. How we act is something we as a community have some control over...IME focusing too much on all the things we can't control (fads, trends, malicious fools, profiteering, language etc) is a road to madness.

*rant complete*


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its being forgotten that internet discourse isnt the same as face to face non virtual conversation. 

There is a substantial absence of normal conversive cues, eye contact, nuanced amendment and emotive alignment of understnding and clarification. 

As a result these Blanks in communication are "filled in" per subtext in projection by the reader. 

Combine this with a structure that enables one to pause and deliberate in response - unlike spontaneous exchange, cherry pick and ignore points and what you have is a mutated version of communication far removed from our native capacities, yet treated as if it is Real Conversation.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

JackReidMarx said:


> I am nervous to post this perspective, but I think it's too important to not say anything. As a newcomer I think I can add to this. Here it goes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you should feel the need to feel nervous about your post. I think you bring up some very fair points and observations. Socratic's point holds water as well.

DB today is not at all what it once was in terms of participation once upon a time. And perhaps we are collectively to blame in some respects for this, due to elitist behavior/snobbery/haughtiness etc. At points in the past I would argue that this forum was a downright scary place to be for a new hobbyists as there was little margin for ignorance, or alternate methodologies. With that said, as participation has declined, I see a more approachable and patient environment here...at least at first. But as has been pointed out already, many new members are fishing for a response that validates their views or methods, and won't hear reason until they get the response they want. And that to me is frustrating. If it were anecdotal in it's frequency I could look past it as a stubborn individual. But it occurs with such great frequency that it is well...frustrating. And after trying to reason with someone like that repeatedly, over and over, again and again, well sometimes my and other's responses are less sensitively crafted, and more direct and assertive. I don't blame people for putting out these "unwelcoming" responses after trying reason first.

At the end of the day, I can handle ignorance, or misinformed hobbyists. We were all at one point ignorant in this hobby and no doubt along the way received some questionable information. What really grinds my gears are the impulsive ones. People who buy pets without any idea of how to care for them. Sure I'll help them out though. Unfortunately by identifying themselves as impulsive they have almost lost all my respect I might have had for them. That respect can be earned back however, if they show an openness to learning and an open mind. 

Sorry for the long winded response. Gotta get back to work


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Maybe also, its hard to pretend that just because somebody Wants to Keep an animal, doesn't mean they should, just because they can get it.

Some of us can see its not going to be good from the first few sentences.

For those of us who have seen horrific consequences, to the point where we just wished to God they would have just died faster, and not lingered and suffered in stupidity and neglect extraordinary, unless youve seen what we have seen and took home with us, yeah, we get angry.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Kmc said:


> Maybe also, its hard to pretend that just because somebody Wants to Keep an animal, doesn't mean they should, just because they can get it.
> 
> Some of us can see its not going to be good from the first few sentences.
> 
> For those of us who have seen horrific consequences, to the point where we just wished to God they would have just died faster, and not lingered and suffered in stupidity and neglect extraordinary, unless youve seen what we have seen and took home with us, yeah, we get angry.


Entirely true, but coming out and saying this to people is exactly what gives this forum the reputation that JackReidMarx refers to. It makes us look especially bad when we go to the mat on issues for which there is no strong consensus. I think all we can do is to state what has worked for us, refer people to other threads here and information elsewhere that make the point, and then let others make an informed decision. That is where the bandwidth I was referring to kicks in. All too often people ignore what we tell them. That's when you just have to rely on the fact that we may not have reached the OP but there will be lots more people that come and read and never post, and maybe we can make a difference to them. Bullying people (even if it is only perceived as such) is not going to achieve the desired result - better care for the animals we love. How the message is delivered can be as important as the message itself. 

Mark


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Just being honest. 

There is absolutely no way to control the perceptions of people on an online message board.

If more people spoke honestly, with all the candor and flaw of their raw and unrehearsed humanity, maybe _then_ people wuld be so startled by the authenticity, they would actually be stirred by an insight or a warm breeze of empathy.

In the privacy of ones own thoughts, away from the online audience factor, people do think, mull things over, potentially consider another view.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Kmc said:


> [snip]
> 
> If more people spoke honestly, with all the candor and flaw of their raw and unrehearsed humanity, maybe _then_ people wuld be so startled by the authenticity, they would actually be stirred by an insight or a warm breeze of empathy.
> 
> [snip]


While this is possible, it has been my experience (online) since about 1997 that the candor you refer to usually elicits hostility and degrades signal. 

Diplomacy and honesty aren't mutually exclusive. 

I understand the frustration, but that's when -- having conveyed the information -- I disengage. It's outta my hands.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Sure, who has disagreed?


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

JackReidMarx said:


> I am nervous to post this perspective, but I think it's too important to not say anything. As a newcomer I think I can add to this. Here it goes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I personally have the same perspective. As someone who frequents forums for every animal I even think about keeping, this forum has been the most unenjoyable and unfriendly for a new member. This is coming from someone who joined tortoiseforum.org as a preteen to post my absolutely abhorrent tortoise enclosure for critique, only to receive friendly welcomes and great advice not coated in scorn. I return to that forum and others almost daily for their welcoming atmospheres and active community.

This forum is absolutely a treasure trove of information, experiences, and advice. However, it can be hard to ignore the perceived condescension. Starting messages with “where do I even start?” on posts asking for advice seems to be common, and a good example. Heck, here’s even a choice quote from one of my threads, directed to an issue that had been resolved roughly 30 posts prior.

“An inordinately familiar, yet somehow still rather amusing little shitstorm in a blender. ‘Hears turd plop in, then hears someone hit pulse. Like a dumbass, elects to observe the predictable result.’”

It’s not the honesty of posts that comes across as haughty. Not everything needs to be sugarcoated, and it is absolutely understandable that one would want to get to the point.

It’s phrases, expressions, even accusations, that have no place in a post meant to be helpful, meant to keep a keeper keen on continuing their journey into keeping or improving. It is of course not expected that every group should be devoid of these, as the internet is, of course, a space where opinions are shared freely and in most cases can be shared without regulation, to the extent of rules and guidelines. However, and this may (hopefully) just be my experience, they tend to stick out like a sore thumb.

It’s understandable that one would desire a direct, blunt, or even animus response to a newbie with an improperly set up enclosure with or without frogs, or conditions set to put frogs in the grave, because they care for the frogs in those conditions. But it’s important to remember that it’s not the frog receiving the responses.

Some of the easiest, most low effort ways someone can come across as friendly, helpful, or otherwise humble, is to just include a short compliment or praise before even the longest list of suggestions or corrections, and ensuring that the issue has not been resolved before commenting on it. “Your frogs are very cute!” And “I like what you did with the Pothos” can go a very long way, whether it is truly meant or not, and no one enjoys being told to fill in a water feature 4 times after confirming that it would be removed. You get more fruit flies with apple cider vinegar than than normal white, after all 

This is of course not an attack on the forum or it’s members. Heck, I’d say most are great, and it would be hard to find issue with them, but minorities can be deafening. Any focus put on friendliness towards new keepers looking to learn from the great, experienced members on this massive library of irreplaceable info would likely improve this site greatly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Kmc said:


> Just being honest.
> 
> There is absolutely no way to control the perceptions of people on an online message board.


Control no. Educate yes. You can lead a horse to water but....



Kmc said:


> If more people spoke honestly, with all the candor and flaw of their raw and unrehearsed humanity, maybe _then_ people wuld be so startled by the authenticity, they would actually be stirred by an insight or a warm breeze of empathy.


Or they may take it as a slap to the face, that we view their perceptions as wrong, and they will fight/argue until they are proven "right". But yes I hope what you say is true. As mentioned by others in previous posts, sometimes reaching someone is all about how the message is delivered.



Kmc said:


> In the privacy of ones own thoughts, away from the online audience factor, people do think, mull things over, potentially consider another view.


I hope this is true, which is why I, and I suspect many others on this forum, continue to contribute. That or they go elsewhere to find reinforcement of their perceptions in another group more in line with their views.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

TechnoCheese said:


> It’s phrases, expressions, even accusations, that have no place in a post meant to be helpful, meant to keep a keeper keen on continuing their journey into keeping or improving.


TC, I don't think you're wrong. But, frustration will find a way to express itself, even in the most kind-hearted among us. Some of this silliness just gets old.

Also, I don't think that encouraging everyone to 'continue their journey into keeping' is necessarily desirable, to put it mildly. If someone who wasn't willing to put in the slightest bit of effort on their own gets treated harshly and decides frogs aren't for them, that might be the best ending possible.


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## Stiles (Feb 24, 2020)

JackReidMarx said:


> I am nervous to post this perspective, but I think it's too important to not say anything. As a newcomer I think I can add to this. Here it goes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I personally rather ask someone a question who has experience, opposed to going and reading about it. It gives you a chance to get to know someone and its conversation. Nowadays, nobody even wants to have a telephone conversation. Everything has become so impersonal.

And on the whole "Bioactive" topic, I personally hate it when people say an enclosure they are trying to sell is Bioactive, when it really isn't. Most people aren't going to try to look for a springtail or isopod at that very moment.

Just to throw this out there, for anybody in SoCal, in or around LA, DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM THIS GUY IN SUNLAND! HE CLAIMS IS SETUPS ARE BIOACTIVE...AND I ASSURE YOU, THEY 100% ARE NOT!!!!! jUST WANTED TO SPREAD THE WORD. I know there are many honest people out there and its a shame how people will say or do anything to make a quick buck.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Sometimes too, a member may just not 'like' another member, for whatever reason, so that what they post is seen thru a lens of critical review. 

But every person is waaay more dimensional than the slice we experience of them.

It is an odd open plains, these message boards, actually kind of fascinating in its own right.


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## TechnoCheese (Jan 1, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> TC, I don't think you're wrong. But, frustration will find a way to express itself, even in the most kind-hearted among us. Some of this silliness just gets old.
> 
> Also, I don't think that encouraging everyone to 'continue their journey into keeping' is necessarily desirable, to put it mildly. If someone who wasn't willing to put in the slightest bit of effort on their own gets treated harshly and decides frogs aren't for them, that might be the best ending possible.



You’re absolutely right there. There is a point, with any living thing, where someone may just not be the right fit for the animal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The Right Fit for many people is to not have any live animal at all that requires specialized care, and all animals require specialized care if your really doing it.

More often than not if someone is shiddy to a frog, they're going to be same with a leopard gecko. 

Tolerance for neglect shouldnt be the bar of keeper fitness for what they "pick" yet it is, outstandingly so.

Ive been accused of being an animal rights activist. I have animals so according to the criteria, I dont qualify. Humans in any group thing make me queasy, so no.

Yet in an epiphanic moment one day, during a discussion somewhere else I suddenly realized it wasnt an insult. considering some alternatives.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Kmc said:


> Just being honest.
> 
> There is absolutely no way to control the perceptions of people on an online message board.
> 
> ...


You seem to be all about the animals, Kmc, and I really respect that about you. You are passionate about trying to better the lives of the frogs that people come to this board to talk and learn about. If that's the case, you (and me and the rest of us) need to stop making it about individual people. None of us should be taking this stuff personally. If our goal really is to improve the way people care for their frogs, we need to pay a lot more attention to the long game and be willing to suck up our own egos in the short run. 

I think we are in danger of winning all the battles but losing the war. We need to be a lot less worried about winning arguments and being right and a lot more worried about the impact we have on the hobby. This is where we need to be paying attention to _how the message is being delivered_. If what is important is making a difference in how people care for animals, then we need to worry about the perceptions of people on an online message board. Yeah, they are going to misconstrue what we say sometimes regardless of how gently we say it, but that's ok. 

It's troubling to me that we have this reputation of being jerks (and make no mistake, we do have this reputation, and I feel it's earned). JackReidMarx and TechnoCheese, thanks for your comments. Why would anyone want to come to a place with the reputation that ours has? If they stop coming, what impact are we going to have? I think that we are in danger of being a bunch of old codgers shaking our fists at the storm. I think we are right in the advice we give and right in our philosophy of how we approach animal husbandry. If we behave like a bunch of bullies, however, we are in danger of being right all by ourselves in a room that no one comes to anymore.

So, I think the path forward is to remember that everything we write is read by way more people than the particular person whose question we are answering. That person may not take our advice. However, we can still win because lots of other people are watching and learning. Unfortunately, they also learn the stuff that we don't want to teach. They learn that we are a place where we have to be right and other people have to be wrong and where we think we know better than anyone else. They learn that if they want to talk about something controversial, they will be met with ridicule and dismissal. I would rather be teaching other things than these.

Kmc, I quoted your message, but this is way beyond you, so please don't think I am talking straight at you. Many of us have issues in this area, including me. Your comment just gave me a thin excuse for talking about something that has been on my mind for a long time  And, OP, sorry your topic has morphed into something completely different!

Mark


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its Ok! I dont mind.

I think taking the time to unpack ones perspective is a a good thing, the more thorough the better.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> [snip]
> So, I think the path forward is to remember that everything we write is read by way more people than the particular person whose question we are answering. That person may not take our advice. However, we can still win because lots of other people are watching and learning. Unfortunately, they also learn the stuff that we don't want to teach. They learn that we are a place where we have to be right and other people have to be wrong and where we think we know better than anyone else. They learn that if they want to talk about something controversial, they will be met with ridicule and dismissal. I would rather be teaching other things than these.
> 
> [snip]


I totally understand why a hobby like this engenders passionate responses. Care for the animals in question, significant amounts of money and even more time invested; and it seems communication online is more fraught than it used to be due to the massive impact of social media changing the way people exchange information.

Taking a step back, we're a bunch of weirdos who keep colourful tropical frogs in glass boxes. We should be the best weirdos we can be so the animals that depend on us have good lives, but I think maybe most of us agree there's never a reason to act elitist or make other people feel uncomfortable unless they're actively being rude to you. And even if so, what's it going to accomplish to get in an argument online?

To my knowledge, I've never changed anyone's mind that wasn't open to new information. Either they're open or they're not. 

Some of my opinions are unpopular, and because I try to be careful and precise online, I come across as pedantic and long-winded sometimes (in real life I swear like a sailor and I'm a lot more relaxed than Internet Me) -- but I try to stay civil. If not for the other person for my own mental health. 

Because I'm not that smart I still get drawn into arguments sometimes, but I avoid it more often than not these days and I'm happier for it.

When I gave that 'bioactive' person all of the information I had as to why they were maybe barking up the wrong tree for colubrid husbandry, it annoyed me when it clearly fell on deaf ears, but I didn't beat a dead horse. You win some, you lose some.

I'm already worried that this forum with its 1,099,792 posts is going to disappear into the ether one day; no need to hasten its demise by unleashing fire and brimstone on people, I guess.

I still remember a curt and dismissive response I got from some smug 'veteran keeper' about 17 years ago, who couldn't understand that I was trying to build up reference points in order to figure out the right questions to ask. He succeeded in looking like an *** and I managed to get what I needed without His Holiness.

Gatekeepers suck; you see a lot of it in any niche hobby.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

I think the core issue being discussed right now is Internet Etiquette.

As has been pointed out we can't see each other, can't read body language or facial expressions. Only our text. 

If I was standing physically next to someone having a conversation I can with the movement of one eyebrow tell the other person with perfect understanding that everything I am saying should be ignored as a joke.

That doesn't work on a forum.

This doesn't mean our posts must be sterile, devoid of any emotion or eloquence. So how do we make that happen?

1) We can WRITE our emotions
2) We need to respect our fellow forum goers, this is especially true when they are being super dumb/hardheaded/out right dangerous

Number 2 is I suspect the hard one for many folks, but lets address number 1 first for simplicity sake.

1) The simple inclusion of various emotes can go a LONG way to making people feel welcome and heard. Or let them know you are not trying to be a jerk and have no hard feelings about a subject. This can be a smile face such as  or it could be something like a video game emote like my preferred /shrug

It tells people that your own personal feelings are light-hearted and not meant to be 'my way or the highway'. 

2) Respecting fellow forum goers can be hard when someone is actively doing something horrible. A couple of things to keep in mind is that a) if they are posting here then they have already decided to seek out information above and beyond whatever they currently posses, making them infinitely better then the person who muddles through something without taking this step, and b) if we turn them away or tell them not to keep a frog (especially one they already own) we are almost certainly not solving a problem and helping a frog but rather sweeping that problem under the rug. If someone has a frog and a tank then they almost certainly have at least 100 dollars invested and quite possibly a lot more. Us telling them things that baldly contradict their own thoughts and opinions is probably not going to convert them to our way of thinking. Instead its more likely they will just stop posting and go away thinking 'DB is just a bunch of jerks'. 

A better strategy is to direct them down the right path and provide examples of why it is the better path. 

Example: Newbie shows up with a significant water feature in a small viv. 

You could say: Get rid of that water feature, its bad for the frogs.

Or you could say: Honestly I worry about that water feature, they are hard to maintain and your frogs do not need them to be happy and healthy. If you are bound and determined to have it then look out for your clean up crew drowning in it, extra supplement powder fowling the water, frog poop fouling the water, substrate leeching and fowling the water, the water itself stinking, the water causing too much humidity which will impair the frogs and your ability to see them, and worst of all frogs getting sick from fowled water. I know a water feature seems like a nice idea but in practice the darn things are hard to deal with and within a few weeks to a few months will look terrible. /shrug just my 2 cents.


In the first example you will get someone arguing with you about a water feature. In the second example they can see where you are coming from and if nothing else, it at least lets them know what to look out for so when the inevitable starts to happen they can be on top of it to correct the issue as opposed to letting it build up towards self destruction. 

Additionally if they decide to keep the darn water feature and your prediction comes to fruition, they will in their own mind know that DB told them what to do and the advice was sound. Now they will come back to seek more advice and be even more open to hearing it. 

TL;DR - We should be nice to everyone, especially the people who most irritate us because if they are here reading posts they have the potential to be good keepers.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

minorhero said:


> it could be something like a video game emote like my preferred /shrug


I am not the only user here who has interpreted that as offensively dismissive. Many of us have not the remotest clue what video game culture is like -- likely, most of us who remember adult life pre-internet.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I think it is funny how most of us here think we are still fighting this war, while we already lost it a very long time aggo..

We have to be honest with ourself and just look at the basic numbers. Forums or websites like dendroboard and similar information don't reach as much people like instagram, facebook, Youtube and other sources of influence. NOT EVEN CLOSE!


The fight amogst ourselves of how we talk to people here is a never ending disscucion that has absolotely nothing to contribute since all the above reasons already pointed out in this entire disscusion.. Some people need the hard approach, others need a soft approach.. I never done research on what approach works best, have any of you done this? 
People who come here and spend the time realy do their own research will take any advice or critisism, this is something older hobbyist also noticed. Or at least I did, so I don't worry about those people.. 

(back on topic now)

Again, this is not the main reseaon people are scared to come here and start a topic. People don't come here simply because they have much easier acces to other dartfrog related content that requires a lot less reading and preparation.. That is the true root root of evil what this topic is actualy al about..

My advice ; also start using the easy accesible social media platforms and share all the photo's and other content you can produce and want to share. This will reach a lot more people and provide them with the correct information and materials. I personaly always refer to dendroboard and some specific topics posted here when people ask for advice. This helps people who are realy interested in taking care of these special and unique frogs we are blessed to work with on a daily base.

Those who don't listen, already made up their mind a go with the big marketingstrategy and products already trown in their face.. Animal 'keeping' is big buissness, we are simply unable to compete against this or make people aware of this.

This is why I've said before our frogs are luxury products and products need to be sold and consumed. The more the better, at any cost as long as their is profit to be made..

This is simplythe way this world works.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Tijl said:


> I think it is funny how most of us here think we are still fighting this war, while we already lost it a very long time aggo..[snip]


LOL...very good point. I'd take it further and say there was never actually a 'war' -- the world just changed. It was really noticeable for me because I was gone from all of this for about 10 years. I came back and everything had changed drastically.



Tijl said:


> [snip] My advice ; also start using the easy accesible social media platforms and share all the photo's and other content you can produce and want to share. This will reach a lot more people and provide them with the correct information and materials. [snip]



I've noticed that you're very good with social media. In my own case I'm only on Instagram these days, and unlikely to find time for anything else at this point in my life. But you're absolutely correct that there was a paradigm shift, which is why I keep bringing up the eventual extinction of this board.

Being able to archive this is a completely different topic for another thread.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

No. This is not the issue. You are right that there are other, more popular ways to get information. I don't care about those other ways. I am completely disinterested in other forms of social media. This is the place that I choose to spend my time, help people, and learn. 

The war is not between the various ways that people try to learn about frogs. The war is against misinformation and mistreating animals. It can be fought on lots of different battle fields. This is one of them and how we fight the war matters.

People still come here and ask questions. All too often, they are treated poorly when they do. This is not acceptable. I can't figure out why treating people well is so controversial for some on this board.

Mark



Tijl said:


> I think it is funny how most of us here think we are still fighting this war, while we already lost it a very long time aggo..
> 
> We have to be honest with ourself and just look at the basic numbers. Forums or websites like dendroboard and similar information don't reach as much people like instagram, facebook, Youtube and other sources of influence. NOT EVEN CLOSE!
> 
> ...


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> No. This is not the issue. You are right that there are other, more popular ways to get information. I don't care about those other ways. I am completely disinterested in other forms of social media. This is the place that I choose to spend my time, help people, and learn.
> 
> The war is not between the various ways that people try to learn about frogs. The war is against misinformation and mistreating animals. It can be fought on lots of *different battle fields. This is one of them and how we fight the war matters*.


I agree with both of you because several of these things can be true at once. I prefer Dendroboard but online culture (such as it is) has for the most part moved on. One day even Facebook will be replaced, as unbelievable as that may seem now.

But as Mark has been saying, since we're still here, we should try to play nice or what's really the point of a hobby forum? An interesting archive with a handful of cranky froggers waiting to age out of the hobby? (That's a rhetorical question).



Encyclia said:


> I can't figure out why treating people well is so controversial for some on this board.
> 
> Mark


At best it's fatigue, at worst it's that gatekeeper mentality I mentioned.

Both of which suggest it's a good idea to take a step back and put things in perspective.

It doesn't just chase off new hobbyists. I know a couple of people who've been in this game 20, 30 years and they keep away from any kind of engagement online because they got tired of the fracas. They're probably lurking, reading my posts and laughing at me right now.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

If you want to go to war with the 'misinformation' spread about animal keeping, you have no other choice than to fight this war on the platforms the people get their information from. Mayebe, just mayebe 0.01% of all the global information on frog keeping is collected from this website, so your fighting your battle in the wrong place if that is what you are trying to do.. 

'How to treat people' on this particular forum is a totaly different topic than what the OP intented.. If you want to fight this, than you are on the correct website, but not the correct topic. At least that is my opnion..

I 'try' to give up the fight by simply and only showing my way and experience of vivarium building and frog keeping even while I still continue to learn from other hobbyists both new and older topics. Using a lot of photo helps me reach out the community especialy on Instagram. I believe the succes of all social media is based in photo's or video's lately.. Who has the time to read it research these days? So that's a big part of why I decided to join Instagram 6 months aggo.

I find it's a lot more progressive to answer the questions people want to know and ask about the information and photo's I personaly share in the platforms I post on. Since they already have interest in those topics or photo's, it seems easier for them to understand the explaination and reasons in the choices I make. Rather when it's not their topics or build they ask opnions on. I found most people just like to copy what they seen before since they think that's what works.

When people post their own questions and topics, 80-90% they are only looking for confirmation. Not critisism.. No body wants to hear their hard work and effort in putting in a nice water feauture was a mistake and the money spend was trown away.. Especialy since they just did what very influencial people told them to do or buy.. That is exactly how terms like 'BIOACTIVE' become standardized.. It is all just simple marketing scemes..

So I say PREVENT instead of CURE.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Fahad said:


> I prefer Dendroboard but online culture (such as it is) has for the most part moved on. One day even Facebook will be replaced, as unbelievable as that may seem now.


It is funny how something that is, what, 15 years old has such a hold on us that we have a hard time believing it is wasn't created in the Big Bang, or handed down by Moses. Just like the 'stuff on the internet is permanent' nearsighted silliness (this is not a reference to your recent use of this phrase recently, Fahad, because I don't think you were advocating for it, exactly). 

I don't use FB except to lurk, but other non-hobby websites I read comments on can get really nasty (I mean sites like Jalopnik -- it is about cars, for Pete's sake). I admit that you catch more flies with honey, but I don't think DB is special in periodic outbursts of passion, and at least we get upset about something that matters; many of the threads that get hot are about more than just how to keep frogs in a box, too. 



Encyclia said:


> People still come here and ask questions. All too often, they are treated poorly when they do. This is not acceptable. I can't figure out why treating people well is so controversial for some on this board.


Even though it sometimes sounds like I'm disagreeing with you on this, Mark, I really appreciate this voice of yours here, and I do not believe I am alone in doing so. I very much hope you continue to do so. Without you injecting this attitude of yours, things would not be even as civil as they are. Thank you.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Nick_ said:


> I think everyone on the boarDs should be on the bioactive social media pages helping with questions and letting people know that the vivariums we have been keeping as froggers for decades are all in the same category of glass boxes full of dirt and chlorophyl.
> 
> 
> 
> All the people that stumble upon the FB groups for bioactive are essentially being robbed of the decades of experience and information from forums such as this.


No they aren't being robbed. They have found a FB Group. The be all end all of all research and information an omnipotence. They can find DB just as easily as you did but they won't. They're lazy, that's why they are getting all their info from a FB group. 
They deserve what they get. 

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Tapatalk


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## Dr. Manhattan (Oct 28, 2016)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Fahad said:
> 
> 
> > I prefer Dendroboard but online culture (such as it is) has for the most part moved on. One day even Facebook will be replaced, as unbelievable as that may seem now.
> ...


Agreed on Jalopnik and all the other boards on what I believe is called the Kinja-verse. The level of snark and outright nastiness is depressing in the comment section.
I remember reefers getting upset over the term "nitrate factory" whenever someone showed off their wet/dry bio-ball/bale sump set up. The bioactive thing has definitely gone overboard when I see or hear about it bioactive kits for desert herp vivs. I could be wrong, maybe it's worked for some people.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its only fair to note though, for every 'rude' response - there seems to be many more One Issue Posters, with an urgent inquiry who gets detailed focus, often from more than one member, who fully apply their energy to help, yet the new questioner never returns with a follow up, or even a simple thank you.


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## Warp (Jul 12, 2015)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Oh, I should go _there_?
> 
> Ha, ha, ha....hahahaha.....ho,ho...he,he....
> 
> I'd rather eat three month old fruit fly culture scrapings.


Yeah...I deleted FB for a reason.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

I'm an IT guy by trade and it's the same way I cringe when people say "The Cloud" like it's something new. It's sales & marketing people that don't know anything re-branding the internet.

"Social Distancing" Needed another catch phrase for that one. Not saying you shouldn't keep space or wear a face mask because how can it hurt. Just the saying drives me crazy.

I get it and the world we now live in makes me want to social distance .


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