# Chatlog from TWI/ASN chat 12-16-07



## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

[21:00] rozdaboff: Ok - I think we should get started
[21:01] Ed: How do all
[21:01] Corpus_Callosum: Hola
[21:01] rozdaboff: for those of you who don't know us - Matt, Ed and myself are members of the ASN committee
[21:01] kyle1745: as already stated lets keep the floods down and allow ed, oz, and matt to answer questions as they come up.
[21:01] bellerophon: yo
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[21:02] Marty71: Should we just ask away?
[21:02] rozdaboff: I guess if you have a question - just throw it out there. If you can wait for a question to be answered before posting the next question, it would be appreciated
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[21:02] Marty71: How many people are actively involved in teh ASN right now?
[21:03] iljjlm: belong to TWI not ASN yet.
[21:03] TreeWalkers: Good evening, Marcos here, director of TWI
[21:03] rozdaboff: Hey Marcos
[21:03] GregHatesPopCountry: Hello
[21:03] *** Mode change "+v TreeWalkers" for channel #dendroboard by kyle1745.
[21:03] TreeWalkers: Howdy Oz
[21:03] rozdaboff: I don't know the exact number of stewards as it is today - but it is close to a dozen
[21:04] kyle1745: current question on the table Marcos: <Marty71> How many people are actively involved in teh ASN right now?
[21:04] TreeWalkers: Probably about a dozen, I would say.
[21:04] Ed: 121 registered members at this moment
[21:04] Marty71: Thanks
[21:04] kyle1745: Next question...
[21:04] rozdaboff: so - only 10% of TWI members have submitted steward apps
[21:04] rozdaboff: which is a number we would like to see increase
[21:04] TreeWalkers: Sounds right to me.
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[21:05] rozdaboff: and don't be hesitant to ask any questions
[21:05] cobaltsinoh: I have a question first about TWI itself if I may..
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[21:06] Marcos: Go right ahead with the TWI question.
[21:06] cobaltsinoh: I would like a little more clarification on the membership levels and clasifications
[21:06] Ed: in what respect? 
[21:07] Ed: (just so we can be sure to answer it accurately)
[21:07] cobaltsinoh: For example, there are different membership "levels" if you will
[21:07] Marcos: The member levels really only have to do with the level of financial support an individual can give, and at certain levels the membership goes for 2 years rather than one.
[21:08] Marcos: But, it has nothing to do with ASN levels. You can join TWI at whatever level, and it isn't related to your steward level.
[21:08] Marty71: Can you walk me through becoming a steward? Specifically, commitment of time etc...
[21:08] cobaltsinoh: I was trying to get to the page to give a better example but the link appears broken to the membership levels, so I'll just ask is there a minimum amount for joining?
[21:09] GregHatesPopCountry: As far as the ASN goes right now there are only a couple frogs that have been sponsored by people right? All I am aware of are the varis that Oz got the ball rolling with
[21:09] rozdaboff: We'll finish Tony's question, then Marty, then Greg
[21:09] Marcos: I think its either 20 bucks or 35, let me look into why the page is kaput.
[21:09] GregHatesPopCountry: ha ok sorry i lost track here
[21:09] rozdaboff: no prob
[21:09] Ed: There really isn't a minimum of time as you would hopefully be able to fulfill at least some level by registering your animals and following the guidelines
[21:10] Marty71: Just don't want to commit to something i can't fulfill
[21:10] bellerophon: RE: Tony's Q: to be honest thats what put me off joining for so long. I wasnt sure if "student" was just for students or if it would restrict my membership in any way
[21:10] Ed: If you want to get more involved in other aspects of ASN like mentoring or supporting a taxon management support then that would require more time
[21:10] Marty71: thx
[21:11] rozdaboff: As Ed mentioned, if you are only wanting to be a steward - time commitments aren't too great
[21:11] rozdaboff: you do need to keep track of your animals, update accessions, and keep breeding histories for frogs that are being managed
[21:12] Marcos: The minimum is filling out the applicaiton, the next level is animal registration which takes like 10 minutes, but that's up to you.
[21:12] rozdaboff: but I don't think it would be what you would consider "too much time"
[21:12] rozdaboff: Does that answer your question Marty?
[21:12] Ed: And that is some of the more important aspects of the ASN as it will in the long run help ensure the long term sustainability of the hobby
[21:12] Marty71: Just a quick follow up. 
[21:12] rozdaboff: ok
[21:13] Marty71: It's definitely not too much time, but i suign up, then add animals, then what? I am really interested, don't mean these as negative questions, just trying to get a feel for teh process
[21:13] rozdaboff: No - they are good questions
[21:14] Marcos: Yes, your questions are probably very useful for others.
[21:14] Marty71: w/ bad typing
[21:14] rozdaboff: after you register your animals - you need to keep track of their offspring, transactions with other stewards, death of frogs, addition of frogs, etc.
[21:14] rozdaboff: Let's say you have a pair of D. variabilis that are in a population that is being managed
[21:15] Ed: At the moment depending on species and/or morph that may be it for the moment as it will help get the data needed for the TMG
[21:15] rozdaboff: it is important to know what they are doing
[21:15] rozdaboff: but as Ed said - as the program is still in its infancy - there aren't many TMPs that are operational
[21:16] rozdaboff: but that is changing
[21:16] Ed: Sorry Zoo lingo took over TMG should be TMP
[21:16] Marty71: It seems liek tehse are all things most of us do anyways? Track lineages, breeding groups etc
[21:16] Marcos: and don't let the acronymn scare you, a taxon management group, is just a semi-formal group of folks that share an interest in a species
[21:16] rozdaboff: exactly Marty - but ASN serves as coordinated center to organize these actions
[21:16] Ed: While you track them there is no way to compare for example generation or degree of relatedness
[21:16] Ed: this is what a TMP helps resolve
[21:17] Marty71: Thank you all for the answers
[21:17] rozdaboff: ok - Greg asked "As far as the ASN goes right now there are only a couple frogs that have been sponsored by people right? All I am aware of are the varis that Oz got the ball rolling with "
[21:17] rozdaboff: Currently - only the Variabilis TMP is completed
[21:18] Matt_Mirabello: I will be working on the TMP for Dendrobates auratus
[21:18] rozdaboff: so - for only Variabilis has it been determined which frogs are in which category levels
[21:18] rozdaboff: but - there are more in the process of being completed
[21:18] Ed: And there is a need for more people to help work out the TMPs... (if you have an interest we could use the help..)
[21:19] rozdaboff: in addition to Auratus, I know progress is being made on pumilio, imitator is underway
[21:19] rozdaboff: absolutely - if you have a species that you really like
[21:19] kyle1745: could you elaborate on the TMP and its purpose?
[21:20] Marcos: One of the neat things about starting a TMP is that it gives you a chance to find out a whole lot more about a species, its history, its lines, etc. And we try to get you information from folks who know the history of an animal, where it came from, etc.
[21:20] Ed: as well as husbandry recomendations
[21:20] GregHatesPopCountry: so TMPS can are made from people on the TWI board?
[21:21] rozdaboff: anyone can make a TMP - just request to be a TMG coordinator on your ASN steward app
[21:21] GregHatesPopCountry: oh ok cool
[21:21] Ed: Ideally a TMP will also include a number of registered animals and thier degree of relatedness so genetic diversity can be maximized if there is an interest
[21:21] rozdaboff: or if you have already submitted your app, contact someone on the ASN commitee
[21:21] GregHatesPopCountry: we really need to promote getting more TMPs going
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[21:22] Marcos: Oz, can you describe how you went about making your TMP?
[21:22] rozdaboff: here is a link to the Variabilis TMP: http://www.treewalkers.org/treeftp/Glob ... lisTMP.pdf
[21:22] Ed: TWI has permission to use the ISIS population software which the Zoos use
[21:22] sarahs: hi todd
[21:23] rozdaboff: To make the variabilis TMP, I did a lot of referencing of the TMPs written by the TSA (Turtle Survival Alliance?)
[21:23] TDKelley: Hey Sarah 
[21:23] rozdaboff: I read several to see what was useful information, and what would be really helpful for the purpose of the TWI TMPs
[21:23] TDKelley: I've been meaning to e-mail you... I have some orchid photos to share.
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[21:24] rozdaboff: As Ed mentioned - husbandry information, population information, etc.
[21:24] Marcos: I thought getting the line information was fascinating.
[21:25] rozdaboff: Then I did a little background research (with the help of Tor, Todd and Christina) to get the line info on the populations in the hobby
[21:25] rozdaboff: *this is probably the most important part of the TMP
[21:26] Michael_Khadavi: while we're on the topic of TMP's and the need for more,
[21:26] Michael_Khadavi: In what ways could a steward/TWI member with minimal frog experience be able to contribute to the ASN, more specifically the TMP's, for example they might want to help with a TMP but don't have enough experience with certain species to help.
[21:26] Marcos: It is a neat project because the Peru exporters also see the value in capturing what is going on.
[21:26] rozdaboff: You get an idea of what frogs are in the hobby, where they came from, how many frogs founded the population, etc
[21:26] rozdaboff: It is a lot of fun as Marcos mentioned - gives you a different perspective on the frogs
[21:27] rozdaboff: then you just compile the info - and you have a TMP:lol:
[21:27] rozdaboff: The variabilis TMP will serve as a template for the future plans - so it will make getting the info a little easier
[21:27] Marcos: Michael, there is a need for folks of all experience levels.
[21:28] Ed: to answer Michael's questions initially by registering thier frogs, providing information such as social grouping, number of eggs, time to hatching, metamorphosis, foods, enclosure size, set up
[21:28] Ed: and attempting to maintain the frogs..
[21:28] Michael_Khadavi: I understand that part, but as far as writing TMP's I'd assume (perhaps an incorrect assumption) that to actually write the TMP you'd need to have some experience with those frogs
[21:29] Marcos: You can also do research, find out about lines, do formatting, etc.
[21:29] rozdaboff: I think it would be beneficial - but perhaps not necessary
[21:29] Ed: not necessarily if you are willing to track all of the information down.. or if you want to do a lot of the writing by collaborating 
[21:29] Marcos: Heck, I'm probably one of the least experienced froggers in the org, and they let me play 
[21:29] kyle1745: Are teh TMPs for the species or morphs as well?
[21:29] Ed: the TMP can be reviewed... I would say that it depends on the amphibians in question
[21:29] rozdaboff: Some TMPs will be large projects - and the people who may want to work on those would always need help
[21:29] rozdaboff: The TMP will be for a species
[21:30] rozdaboff: and it will contain all of the population info
[21:30] Ed: (and to make a quick point... TMP are not just for frogs but all amphibians..)
[21:30] Michael_Khadavi: I see, so the research and compiling portion is quite helpful then
[21:30] kyle1745: so it is a living document?
[21:30] rozdaboff: so for Imitator - the Imitator TMP will contain nominat, intermedius, tarapoto, etc.
[21:30] rozdaboff: yes - very much so
[21:30] Ed: TMPs in my opinion should be updated at least yearly
[21:30] rozdaboff: the Variabilis TMP has already been updated once to reflect the frogs made available by Understory
[21:31] Ed: if for no other reason than to track the changes in the populations as this may change the status of the population
[21:31] kyle1745: so one could do a inquitos TMP which maybe part of a larger vent TMP later? or would the vent TMP need completed?
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[21:31] rozdaboff: It would probably be more useful to do the whole Vent TMP
[21:32] rozdaboff: but if your interest is in the Iquitos - recruit others to help you with the other populations
[21:32] Marcos: There also might be some challenges in entering into ISIS, the database.
[21:32] sarahs: So where have you been getting most of the background information on, for populations that have been in the ho bby for a while?
[21:33] rozdaboff: But - the information you may find now on the Iquitos would be useful whenever the TMP is written
[21:33] Ed: with the vent example, the husbandry and as much of the population could be completed with the other population added at a later point
[21:33] Marcos: But, this is really an incremental process and any documentation is a great start.
[21:33] Ed: this would allow more than one person to coordinate different morphs that interest them
[21:33] rozdaboff: Sarah - the easiest way to get the info is ask
[21:33] Marcos: Sarah, yes, that is part of it. Part of it comes from talking to exporters, reviewing data, but a lot comes from the community.
[21:34] sarahs: Ok
[21:34] rozdaboff: the older lines may be the hardest in some cases
[21:34] rozdaboff: as you need to trace them back to the origin
[21:35] rozdaboff: there was a very interesting thread on the Regina/Giant Orange Tinctorius that illustrated this process nicely
[21:35] Marcos: Even if you can't trace it all the way back, you just modify the TMP to reflect the commonly accepted breeding practices in the community.
[21:35] Ed: But some may never be resolved like auratus groups that are descendents from animals imported 20 years ago and aquired in the pet trade
[21:36] Marcos: That's the nice thing, is that it becomes a community effort and that those in the TMP can look at what they think is the best thing to do with the data they have.
[21:37] rozdaboff: Giant Orange/Regina thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ant+orange
[21:37] rozdaboff: Are we ready for another question?
[21:38] stchupa: like a framewrork to a melding pot? could be 'good'/'bad'
[21:38] rozdaboff: Not sure I understand the question stchupa
[21:39] Manuran: is there any sort of verification for the work done?
[21:39] Manuran: any checking?
[21:39] Ed: do you mean like contacting the vendors etc?
[21:39] rozdaboff: regarding the populations?
[21:40] Manuran: no, just curious, if someone writes one up
[21:40] Ed: it gets reviewed by at least 3-4 people
[21:40] stchupa: It bothers that I see this as possibly becoming a new avenue in which animals from the illegal trade remain valued
[21:40] Manuran: and let's say it is someone with less experience
[21:40] Manuran: is it just accepted as correctly done?
[21:41] Manuran: sorry ed, didn't see your post
[21:41] Ed: it gets reviewed by at least 3-4 people at this time. 
[21:41] Manuran: okay, got it
[21:41] rozdaboff: stchupa - one safeguard to the concern of illegal frogs is that only frogs of legal origin can be entered into ASN
[21:41] Ed: if there are questions they get asked and if they can be cleared up then they get cleared up, if not it gets noted
[21:42] Marcos: We care about illegal activity, the burden of proof on illegal frogs has to be rather rigorous.
[21:43] bellerophon: Is ASN open to members abroad? I haven seen much mention of it outside of dendroboard
[21:43] Marcos: These guys can tell you that I look at this issue a lot, the truth of the matter, is that frog legality is a very complicated issue, one that I have worked with FWS and CITES folks, and for which there are not very clear answers.
[21:44] Manuran: night all. 
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[21:44] kyle1745: who determines the lagality of a animal? as there are some that are questionable to their status. (without starting a big debate) In regards to ASN only.
[21:44] Ed: bellerophon,, the answer is yes and we do have a couple of overseas members and are hoping for more
[21:44] stchupa: I understand that Oz, but you showed leniency towards the Auratus where we have no idea of true origin. So I figure it could be ben/passed to another
[21:45] rozdaboff: If the frogs have never legally been made available - then they aren't able to be enrolled in ASN - for example - Castis cannot be enrolled
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[21:45] Ed: auratus have been legally imported for about 20 years and in the past legally released from some Zoos. 
[21:46] sbreland: hey all... big crowd.
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[21:46] Ed: as well as legally sent to the USA from Hawaii
[21:46] Marcos: Hi stace.
[21:46] kyle1745: Could ASN enable the hobby to work closer with the Zoos in the future?
[21:47] stace: Hey Marcos, good to see some faces in here that rarely appear
[21:47] Marcos: Kyle, the legality issues we look at pretty carefully, and I work a lot of those issues on a case by case basis, again more about illegal activity than animals.
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[21:47] Marcos: We don't want members to feel that we are going to turn them over to FWS because they bought 5th generation castis, etc.
[21:48] Marcos: Kyle, yes.
[21:48] Ed: I would say that it is the big step in the right direction. Zoos use ISIS and if members let the Zoos see the hobby responsibly maintaining the frogs then it will go a long way
[21:48] Marcos: And right now we are working on collaborating not just with Zoos but with the Amphibian Ark which is larger than just zoos.
[21:48] Ed: I would say that Amphibian Ark is the more important one of the two
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[21:49] Marcos: That collaboration is part of the reason we use ISIS for our database as it is the international defacto zoo standard.
[21:50] JWerner: Wow! Look at all these people!
[21:50] Marcos: Howdy!
[21:50] Marcos: Also, the TMP standard is somewhat based on the Turtle Survival Alliance which collaborates with zoos.
[21:51] stchupa: ..and all but three, passed out
[21:51] Ed: and a little based on the PMP and SSPs used by the Zoos
[21:51] bell-Lee: Have the first set of records been submitted to ISIS yet? Any feedback from them?
[21:51] stace: Sorry to change subjects or interject, but I have to say I am trying to understand if the ASN idea is to have yourself notated with each and every species you work with or if people plan to specialize in one or two different species...
[21:52] sarahs: I personally plan on specializing
[21:52] stchupa: As I know it, you choose
[21:52] Matt_Mirabello: You can register all of your animals or a select portion
[21:52] Marcos: Whatever you choose.
[21:53] Ed: You can participate in as many TMPs as you choose 
[21:53] kyle1745: Are TMPs requried before that species can be registered?
[21:53] Ed: we encourage you to register as many animals as possible
[21:53] stace: SO how do you choose then... ones that are needed most, ones that you do well with, or just ones that you like?
[21:53] Ed: Kyle...no
[21:53] rozdaboff: I think there is benefit to registering them all Stace
[21:54] Ed: I agree with Oz
[21:54] stchupa: If can/wanyt to redister them all, do so
[21:54] JWerner: Where is this registation site?
[21:54] Ed: Its hard to see which are needed to be worked with the most unless we can get most of the amphibians registered
[21:54] GregHatesPopCountry: but you can choose what species you choose to become more involved with Stace
[21:54] Michael_Khadavi: Jon - registering to TWI or the ASN application ?
[21:55] stace: Ok, so once you register, what happens then... sit and wait til enough people get on with that species (sorry, know this is probably been talked about, but I just don't know the answers to these
[21:55] rozdaboff: the ASN steward application is here: http://www.treewalkers.org/index.php?op ... mitstart=1
[21:55] stace: How is that Greg?
[21:55] stace: and what essentially is more involved?
[21:56] Ed: we can make some guesses based on what we know about the population like Blue Jeans Pumilio but some like some of the tinct morphs, its hard to get a feel at thsi time
[21:56] rozdaboff: the forms for registering animals are found here: http://www.treewalkers.org/index.php?op ... mitstart=2
[21:56] bell-Lee: not to interject but a lot of that is covered in the ASN handbook. It goes into a lot more detail that can probably be discussed easily here
[21:56] rozdaboff: Stace - you can be more involved with some species by volunteering to be a Taxon Management Coordinator
[21:57] rozdaboff: that will allow you to be intimately involved with writing the TMP, determining the population info, etc.
[21:57] rozdaboff: but - if you want less of a committment - just register your animals
[21:57] rozdaboff: and work with your TMP coordinator
[21:58] stace: Hmm... sounds like i need to do some reading I guess. Reason for my bvery basic questions is that I embarassingly don't know that much about all this yet but want to learn more
[21:58] rozdaboff: The easiest way to get an overview of the program is to check out the ASN page on the TWI site
[21:58] rozdaboff: and to read the handbook
[21:58] rozdaboff: but asking questions is just as good
[21:58] Marty71: "and work with your TMP coordinator". I sthat why it's critical to register even what most of us would consider teh more "common" frogs?
[21:58] rozdaboff: the goal is to get you interested in getting involved
[21:59] Ed: you can also post to the TWI forums, e-mail or pm us with questions if you have more after reading
[21:59] rozdaboff: Marty - yes
[21:59] rozdaboff: some of the more "common" frogs are in danger of disappearing from the hobby
[21:59] rozdaboff: and ASN can help prevent that
[22:00] Ed: registration is probably the most important point of ASN
[22:00] Marty71: So tehre is a value to somebody with a pair of azureus becoming involved?
[22:00] Marty71: Not me, but...
[22:00] Ed: some have already virtually disappeared like Bumblee bee toads
[22:00] Ed: even a pair of azureus
[22:00] Ed: yes
[22:00] rozdaboff: yes - there is value to registering all amphibians (perhaps save hybrids)
[22:01] JWerner: OK
[22:01] JWerner: With break coming for me, I will have time to check out the TWI site
[22:01] JWerner: and at least register animals
[22:01] Ed: I would say even hybrids so they can be tracked and not mixed into the general population
[22:01] kyle1745: Could you explain how ASN will help with a species that maybe in danger of falling out of the hobby?
[22:01] rozdaboff: Jon - that would be great
[22:01] JWerner: What about animals imported from 
[22:02] JWerner: europe?
[22:02] stace: so is the goal to have a huge database of everybodies frogs and to know who has what and where they came from and such?
[22:03] rozdaboff: Kyle - I think there are a couple of ways that ASN can help with a species that is in danger of falling out of the hobby
[22:03] Ed: Kyle... If people keep thier populations updated then the TMC would be able to detect trends before they occur and people coule be encouraged to maintain the populations (one way)
[22:03] rozdaboff: First - by registering the frogs, we know who has what
[22:03] rozdaboff: (and as Ed said - track trends)
[22:04] Ed: another way is that the TMC could make recommendations for breeding to maximize genetic diversity and limit the potential effects of inbreeding
[22:04] Marcos: Kyle, it is also like any other conservation question of determining why the animal trend is negative.
[22:04] stchupa: One question I have yet to here a solid answer on is, what's the determined mission now? Sustain the viability of the animals under management or cater to the desires of the hobby?
[22:04] stace: so do we have to make additions to the database everytime our frogs have offspring or if we sell to someone?
[22:04] rozdaboff: Jon - give us as much data as you can on your accessions regarding the history
[22:05] kyle1745: Understand, and I am also trying to ask questions people maybe thinking but not asking.
[22:05] rozdaboff: the frogs will be managed as separate populations. When the TMPs are written - each population will be characterized
[22:05] Marcos: Stchtupa, the overarching goal is to reduce demand on WC animals.
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[22:05] rozdaboff: for example - you should shortly be receiving an email asking for more info regarding your Yuris
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[22:05] JWerner: 'we know who has what' - that might not appeal to all as some don't want their ownership of certain species made public
[22:06] rozdaboff: as we are working on the Imitator TMP 
[22:06] rozdaboff: they will be characterized there
[22:06] Marcos: Jon, there are privacy controls built in the registration process to make it as private or public as you chose.
[22:06] JWerner: I guess I better get my founder yuris registered
[22:06] stace: so it wouldn't be open to the public that you owned grannies or blue jeans or whatever that you wouldn't want everyone to know about?
[22:06] Ed: stace: that would be ideal but as long as it gets added routinely (say every 2-3 months) would work (annually would be the last choice as it makes the trends harder to track)
[22:08] rozdaboff: you have the option of making accessions available to other stewards or not
[22:08] rozdaboff: plus - the only identifier would be your TWI ID #
[22:08] stace: if the privacy controls keep most from being able to see what you have, who can see "everything"
[22:08] Marcos: The database manager, currently Brent Brock.
[22:08] Ed: so if someone searched the ISIS data base it would show the holding TWI# and not your name and address
[22:09] reggorf: how much info do you have to have from the people you sell your frogs to? what needs to be entered?
[22:09] stace: so there is a degree of anynomity to it... that's good
[22:09] rozdaboff: you don't have to have any info - but if you sell them to another steward - it would be good to note it
[22:09] rozdaboff: but they can do the same when they enter them
[22:10] Ed: If I remember correctly, when you register the frog it would be given an ISIS number with all of the data about its pedigree housing etc linked to that number. The person who bought the frog could register the change in location via that number
[22:10] bell-Lee: wouldn't hurt to pass on some info about TWI to the buyer either 
[22:10] Ed: you would report it sold to x
[22:10] Ed: or sold to public like can occur at a show and the person would hopefully be a member and register the frog
[22:10] reggorf: got it. thanks
[22:11] stace: so how does this differ from frogtrax and is there any plan to import the records from there (if it hasn't already been done)
[22:11] Marcos: We're also working on getting feedback from vendors about standard information which would be useful to pass on during any animal exchange or sale.
[22:11] Marcos: (that is of benefit to tracking and the consumer)
[22:11] Michael_Khadavi: When you accession frogs you can also cross reference them to frog tracks ID numbers
[22:11] rozdaboff: the database will be cross-referenced to current Frogtracks numbers
[22:11] rozdaboff: yeah - what Mike said
[22:12] Michael_Khadavi: none of what frogtracks was doing will go to waste, just a side note
[22:12] Ed: In ISIS, you can note the reference to frogtrax. With ISIS the database manager or the TMC would be able to pull up everyfrog that frog was related to (if registered), even housing changes, which frog or frogs were paired with it... 
[22:12] reggorf: so, each froglet gets an ISIS# and we should pass that on to whoever we are selling too , right?
[22:12] GregHatesPopCountry: so it is better then frogtracks?
[22:12] Ed: If you register the frog it will get an ISIS number. 
[22:12] GregHatesPopCountry: sounds liek it to me
[22:13] rozdaboff: the offspring will probably be easiest to handle as a group
[22:13] Ed: It handles data differently
[22:13] rozdaboff: there is a good description of this on a thread in the TWI forum
[22:13] GregHatesPopCountry: i guess thats a nice way to put it
[22:13] Ed: It has its issues but does work differently
[22:13] rozdaboff: so far, from what I have seen - the ISIS software has many benefits over to some limitations in the FrogTracks software
[22:14] Marcos: There will be a huge upgrade to something called ZIMS in a year or so also which will bring more features.
[22:14] bell-Lee: 
Have the first set of records been submitted to ISIS yet? Any feedback from them?
[22:14] sarahs: Marcos- on ASN end or the ISIS end?
[22:15] JWerner: Thanks for the information - Got to run. Happy Holidays to all
[22:15] rozdaboff: I think Brent would be the best person to ask regarding that Lee
[22:15] Marcos: I don't know, I saw some emails between Brent and the President of ISIS so the first batch should be soon.
[22:15] Marcos: Sarah, on the ISIS end.
[22:15] Ed: If I remember what Brent said, it should be soon
[22:15] *** JWerner has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[22:15] Marcos: ISIS becomes ZIMS which is a huge upgrade from like a DOS based deal to a more friendly, robust applicaiton.
[22:16] Marcos: We talked to the President of ISIS an interestingly we are one of very, very few private organizations using the system the way we are.
[22:16] kyle1745: are these systems public?
[22:16] Marcos: No, the data is available in a generalized way to ISIS members. Is that right, Ed.
[22:17] iljjlm: Who should I get in touch with about starting a TMP?
[22:18] rozdaboff: If you are interested in starting a TMP - indicate that on your ASN steward app if you haven't completed it
[22:18] Ed: a generalized search can be made by anyone see http://www.isis.org/CMSHOME/)http://www.isis.org/CMSHOME/ but TWI members would not be listed like the Zoos but under TWI with a TWI number
[22:18] bell-Lee: http://app.isis.org/abstracts/abs.asp
[22:19] bell-Lee: ugh, beat me to it
[22:19] rozdaboff: if you have - then send an email to one of the members of the ASN committee
[22:19] iljjlm: OK, will do tomarrow.
[22:19] *** elmoisfive has joined #dendroboard.
[22:19] rozdaboff: (there is a list of the members on the TWI site - but the page is down right now)
[22:19] Marcos: (working the page issue )
[22:19] rozdaboff: http://www.treewalkers.org/sc/
[22:19] reggorf: hi bill
[22:19] Marcos: Hi, Bill.
[22:19] elmoisfive: hello Stacey
[22:19] rozdaboff: hey Bill
[22:19] elmoisfive: hello Marcos
[22:19] elmoisfive: hello Oz
[22:20] cobaltsinoh: hola
[22:20] elmoisfive: hello Tony
[22:20] rozdaboff: any have another question?
[22:20] *** elmoisfive is now known as Five_assed_monkey.
[22:20] sarahs: :lol:
[22:20] rozdaboff: :lol:
[22:21] Five_assed_monkey: 8)
[22:21] Michael_Khadavi: iljjlm - [email protected]
[22:21] Marty71: Nice. Must be one hell of a toilet....
[22:21] defaced: Fave assed monkey!!!!
[22:21] stace: what is the current # of members in ASN right now?
[22:21] Five_assed_monkey: hello Michael
[22:21] Marty71: 12
[22:21] Michael_Khadavi: hi Bill
[22:21] iljjlm: Thanks Michael
[22:22] Five_assed_monkey: both Michaels actually
[22:22] kyle1745: Does ASN have any interest or involvement with helping fight many of the bogus exotic animal laws that seem to be creaping up?
[22:22] rozdaboff: yeah - as Marty said - there are about a dozen stewards so far
[22:22] Five_assed_monkey: and hello to all 
[22:22] Five_assed_monkey: hiya boss...
[22:22] Marcos: Kyle, not ASN, but there is a trade a policy section, but because of our nonprofit status, we are very restricted in lobbying.
[22:22] stace: so I am confused then... why are there so few? I mean, if TWI has more memebers why is ASN behind?
[22:22] kyle1745: ah ok that makes sense
[22:23] rozdaboff: we don't know Stace - that is why there has been a push for extending information through the various amphibian internet outlets
[22:24] Five_assed_monkey: ehhh we must be talking TWI/ASN tonight
[22:24] rozdaboff: the poll regarding why people haven't become stewards was to help us try and figure that out
[22:24] Marcos: Stace, two things: ASN in action is new (the concept has been around for a while) and (2) I think people think they need more experience than they do to participate.
[22:25] Marcos: Or, the materials haven't been clear about time committment, the process, etc.
[22:25] rozdaboff: ^which is why we are spending our Sunday evening with you:lol:
[22:25] stace: so I guess here's the question that has already been asked 100 times... what's the difference between TWI and ASN, or is that a read the booklet question?
[22:25] Ed: ASN is part of TWI
[22:25] Marcos: TWI also has other projects
[22:25] rozdaboff: TWI is the parent organization which ASN is a part of
[22:26] Ed: TWI has several parts like Operation Frogpond and Operation Atelopus
[22:26] Marcos: TWI is: local conservation, global conservation, education and outreach, and trade and policy
[22:26] Marcos: ASN is part of global conservation
[22:26] stace: I feel like the kid that showed up to the test that didn't read the assignment...:roll:
[22:26] Marcos: Our magazine and Operation Atelopus are education and outreach
[22:26] stace: sorry
[22:26] Ed: If people want to do local stuff check out OFP
[22:27] kyle1745: how are offspring tracked and or reported? Personally i think this is tough even in frog tracks.
[22:27] Marcos: and Operation Frog Pond is local.
[22:27] Five_assed_monkey: Frogtracks poses difficulties only if people don't use it...
[22:27] Ed: no need to apologize
[22:28] Marty71: How a big of an issue is it taht many of teh frogs I woudl be entering i have very limited data on?
[22:28] Five_assed_monkey: I find that only about 10% of people I give tracking numbers to for offspring use them
[22:28] stace: marty, that's a problem I have as well...
[22:28] rozdaboff: Kyle - there is some very helpful information in a pdf that Lee prepared regarding entering offpsring
[22:28] bell-Lee: http://www.treewalkers.org/forum/index. ... 7.html#new
[22:28] rozdaboff: it is on the TWI forum currently
[22:29] rozdaboff: but it will be made public in the near future
[22:29] Ed: Marty: Enter as much information as you have.. If a lot more people enter the data then more and more items can be linked up
[22:29] sarahs: Bill, I have found though that you are one of the few vendors that actually consistantly uses the numbers though
[22:29] Five_assed_monkey: unfortunately true Sarah :?
[22:29] rozdaboff: Bill - you are lucky you see 10%
[22:29] bell-Lee: All brents work but I learned alot formatting it for him. Highly recomend reading it before filling out accession forms
[22:29] stace: I had the hardest time with the frogtracks system...
[22:29] Five_assed_monkey: I bug them 
[22:30] rozdaboff: Lee - is that public yet?
[22:30] *** iljjlm has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[22:30] *** jmcc000 has joined #dendroboard.
[22:30] bell-Lee: only as public as the forums at the moment
[22:30] Five_assed_monkey: hello Jason
[22:30] jmcc000: Hello all
[22:30] Ed: Stace: you would be submitting the data to either the database manager or the TMC so you wouldn't be entering it directly
[22:31] rozdaboff: but it will go on the page with the accession forms, correct?
[22:31] *** Raymond has joined #dendroboard.
[22:31] Five_assed_monkey: hello Raymond
[22:31] Raymond: hey
[22:31] bell-Lee: I beleive so Oz
[22:31] stace: good, because that would be one of my biggest problems and the reason I didn't put more time into frogtracks
[22:32] rozdaboff: Any one with another ASN question?
[22:32] jmcc000: well im late, and im guessing its been asked
[22:32] rozdaboff: there are others who are newcomers Jason
[22:32] jmcc000: but how much info do you need on the frogs
[22:32] *** nealhorn has joined #dendroboard.
[22:32] rozdaboff: we would like as much info as you can provide
[22:33] jmcc000: ok
[22:33] Ed: the more the better.. 
[22:33] jmcc000: so the new frogs i just got from marcus 
[22:33] jmcc000: SNDFs
[22:33] rozdaboff: Those are easy
[22:33] jmcc000: thats what i thought
[22:33] rozdaboff: they are CB frogs that originated from Mark Pepper
[22:33] jmcc000: F2s
[22:33] rozdaboff: they are most likely F2s from the Peruvian imports
[22:34] jmcc000: yes
[22:34] rozdaboff: I have gotten all the info regarding the Taras
[22:34] rozdaboff: but didn't know much about the Uakarii
[22:34] jmcc000: my problem there is how do i know that they are related or not
[22:35] rozdaboff: you can try and contact Mark Pepper ([email protected])
[22:35] *** johnnymo has joined #dendroboard.
[22:35] jmcc000: ok, will do
[22:35] Ed: At that level I wouldn't be overly worried at the degree of relatedness
[22:35] jmcc000: ok
[22:35] Marcos: If you feel weird about it, we could ask Mark as well.
[22:36] Ed: the more info the better..
[22:36] jmcc000: either is fine
[22:36] bell-Lee: I know we have a lot of younger members on the board so I guess it may be helpfull to ask if there are any age requirments.
[22:37] jmcc000: so on the other frogs that SNDFs have brought in such as the Escudos, Cayo deAqua Solarte
[22:37] bell-Lee: I'd assume it may be a factor at level 4 stewardship
[22:37] jmcc000: With them being farm raised, there would not be to much info on them
[22:37] rozdaboff: no - but they would serve as the founder population
[22:37] jmcc000: ok
[22:38] Marcos: It depends on the farm and the farmer
[22:38] Marcos: Some countries, like Peru, require pretty stringent records on founding stock.
[22:38] Ed: I need to get up at 5:30 so I have to say later folks. 
[22:38] *** Ed has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[22:39] rozdaboff: Just a note on "Level 4" stewardship
[22:39] rozdaboff: we are in the process of revising the steward levels
[22:40] jmcc000: what is the web address again?
[22:40] Marcos: jmc, would it be helpful to have a list of generic questions a customer could ask a vendor?
[22:40] rozdaboff: http://www.treewalkers.org
[22:40] Five_assed_monkey: <<< qualifies as a -20 level steward I think :roll:
[22:40] jmcc000: that would be great
[22:40] rozdaboff: ALL stewards will begin as associate stewards
[22:40] jmcc000: can i be red, lol
[22:40] rozdaboff: after 6 months they will be full stewards
[22:41] Michael_Khadavi: The solarte I got from SNDF this past summer were from an april 2007 importation so you still can get some information on the imports/farm raised
[22:41] sarahs: aahhh... I was wondering how that was working
[22:41] stace: levels... oh boy, have no idea what we are talking about now
[22:41] Marcos: I know it can be awkward as king vendors for information, like you are prying, or questioning them.
[22:41] jmcc000: id have no problem with that, just would like to know exactly what to ask
[22:41] rozdaboff: there will be a formula for scoring stewards so that the score can be used with placing appropriate frogs (from other stewards, or projects) when the time comes
[22:42] Marcos: I made a note to work on a list.
[22:42] Five_assed_monkey: if vendors aren't willing to answer questions, they aren't worth buying from IMHO
[22:42] jmcc000: great
[22:42] bell-Lee: sounds good Oz I was wondering how that was panning out
[22:42] jmcc000: who is FAM, lol
[22:42] defaced: I'm outta here, but I'm going to keep the chat window open so a transcript can be posted if no one minds.
[22:43] kyle1745: lee and myself are doing the same...
[22:43] Five_assed_monkey: Bill Heath Jason
[22:43] rozdaboff: That is a good idea Mike - I was planning to do the same
[22:43] jmcc000: k
[22:43] Michael_Khadavi: Posting a log would be great
[22:43] bell-Lee: I can post one dating back to jan 1 07 if ya want 
[22:43] stace: scores for placing frogs with other stewards... is this like needing to be qualified?
[22:43] defaced: Cool. That'll be my contribution unless someone beats me to it. 
[22:43] defaced: Night
[22:43] jmcc000: im with you on that, im sure most will be open to helping out 
[22:43] sarahs: night
[22:43] rozdaboff: In a way Stace - yes
[22:44] rozdaboff: this is for a couple of reasons
[22:44] Marcos: Good night.
[22:44] stace: won't that lead to a hierarchy? I could see that potentially being a negative
[22:44] rozdaboff: 1) Some stewards may wish to offer frogs to fellow stewards at no cost - but they want to make sure the steward is experienced enough to handle it
[22:45] rozdaboff: in some ways a hierachy is necessary
[22:45] kyle1745: I need to crash as well, first I want to thank the TWI guys for doing this chat as I think it cleared up a bunch of questions. We should be able to get a lot posted and I am open to any future chats that maybe needed.
[22:45] rozdaboff: If ASN works with zoos or amphibian ark - and they want animals placed with a steward
[22:46] rozdaboff: they will most likely want to verify that the steward is qualified
[22:46] Marcos: Thank you for the venue Kyle!
[22:46] rozdaboff: Thanks Kyle
[22:46] rozdaboff: but in the same breath - we want to prevent the system from becoming elitist
[22:46] sarahs: How is that going to happen?
[22:47] stace: yeah, I guess, but I do see how in some ways that can create jealousy and problems. I'm sure it's for the best, but just a thought... what would be some of the scoring criteria?
[22:47] jmcc000: do you guys need anything, (help or donations)
[22:47] kyle1745: np at all and anything I can do to help just let me know. Night all!
[22:47] rozdaboff: that is currently being worked out
[22:47] Marcos: Stace, we're looking at a bunch of differnt options, and most of it will be driven within the TMG not from the top.
[22:47] *** johnnymo has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[22:47] *** kyle1745 is now known as kyle1745_Zzz.
[22:48] rozdaboff: there will be another chat session after the New Year that we hope to unveil the new program and get input
[22:48] Marcos: Most of what will require a fair amount of vetting will probably be for non spectacular common little brown frogs that the Amphibian Ark needs help with.
[22:48] stace: I mean, are we talking this person has successfully bred this, or are we talking this person has this much space or this much time in the hobby... that all seems like such a hard thing to quantify
[22:49] rozdaboff: It is going to be a hard thing to quantify - and all things you mentioned have been discussed to be included in the ranking process
[22:49] Marcos: It's several different factors, depending on the situation and what we are doing.
[22:49] bell-Lee: The only people knowing your score would probably be your TMC and up anway
[22:49] Marcos: The challenge for TWI is that we have to serve as intermediaries to establish trust between parties who do not normally work with or know each other.
[22:50] jmcc000: i can see that being a challenge
[22:50] Marcos: Largely this will rear its head when animals are being exchanged.
[22:50] stace: sounds rough... i can think of more than a few people that haven't been in the hobby long and would rank low on the list but know more and have done more in short amount of time
[22:50] stace: I don't envy who has to make those decisions
[22:50] Marcos: I think a lot of what will count is your involvement in the TMG
[22:51] jmcc000: TMG?
[22:51] Michael_Khadavi: taxon management group
[22:51] jmcc000: thx
[22:51] Marcos: So, if you are new, but are willing to do some grunt work or work with a mentor, you'll have more luck than if you just sign up for the lehmani group or whatever and expect to get frogs because you've been around but don't contribute.
[22:52] Marcos: That said, most of this is driven by the particular species and taxon management group (TMG)
[22:52] stace: what happens then when you have an extraordinary frogger that is clearly qualified, but doesn't want to be involved on that level since you siad your involvement level is optional?
[22:52] Marcos: Hard to say without knowing the specifics involved.
[22:52] stace: yeah, I guess it's very situational
[22:53] Marcos: All things being equal verifiable experience sometimes may win (last of the species known to us), where as sometimes committment may prevail.
[22:53] rozdaboff: But it will only factor in to one component of the project
[22:53] Marcos: That's exactly right.
[22:53] rozdaboff: for all other things - there are two levels of stewards
[22:53] rozdaboff: associate stewards - less than 6 months of involvement
[22:53] rozdaboff: and full stewards
[22:54] rozdaboff: Things seem to be slowing down
[22:54] rozdaboff: are there any more questions
[22:54] jmcc000: in six months you should be able to weed through people
[22:54] stace: interesting... well, thanks for your time guys... given me a lot to think about and I guess I'll have to do some reading tomorrow, since I FINALLY GRADUATED!! Really, thanks though and I'll check everything out. Talk to you all later, gotta head off now.
[22:54] Marty71: congrats
[22:55] Marcos: Congrats on the graduation, Stace!
[22:55] rozdaboff: congratulations Stace
[22:55] stace: thanks guys, Oz, I'll drop you a line if I have any questions...
[22:55] stace: nite all///
[22:55] jmcc000: so first step would be signing up, then?
[22:55] sarahs: I think I have enough to think about for right now  You have an email coming your way Oz.
[22:55] jmcc000: nite
[22:55] rozdaboff: goodnite
[22:55] *** stace has signed off IRC (Quit: PJIRC Chat MOD User).
[22:55] rozdaboff: looking forward to it sarah
[22:56] rozdaboff: Yes - the first step is signing up
[22:56] rozdaboff: and the next step is to encourage others to do the same
[22:56] Marty71: thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer questions. appreciate
[22:56] Marcos: Unfortunately the site is misbehaing right now.
[22:56] jmcc000: ok
[22:56] jmcc000: now would we register our frogs such as frogtracks?
[22:57] rozdaboff: The accession forms are a little more involved than Frogtracks - but essentially yes
[22:57] jmcc000: ok
[22:57] rozdaboff: the forms can be accessed from the same page as the steward app form
[22:57] jmcc000: ok
[22:58] *** You are now known as bell-bbl.
[22:58] rozdaboff: I think it is getting time to call this one
[22:58] jmcc000: yea the site is acting up
[22:59] jmcc000: lots of activity i guess 
[22:59] rozdaboff: There will be another chat session after the holidays
[22:59] Michael_Khadavi: sounds great.
[22:59] rozdaboff: there will be several posts on the board about it
[22:59] jmcc000: great, ill try and be on time, lol
[22:59] rozdaboff: and Kyle mentioned he will post a log of the chat session from this evenging
[23:00] jmcc000: thats cool
[23:00] reggorf: that is going to be one long post.
[23:00] sarahs: ok... great, I was trying to figure out how to copy... that would be a lot easier
[23:00] bell-bbl: I'll have the chatlog up in a few
[23:00] Marcos: any final questions for tonight?
[23:00] rozdaboff: Thanks to everyone for coming out - and a special thanks to the ASN/TWI members who participated
[23:00] Matt_Mirabello: Thanks to all who came to the chat

Edited - formating - kyle1745


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Nice conversation, Sorry I wasnt around to participate...

Survivor was on.. :wink: 

J.K.

Shawn


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

That's it. You're voted off the frog board. 

Yes, good conversation.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks for posting this, Lee. I totally forgot about this chat- and it's good to get some info on TWI/ASN. Definitely something to get involved in.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

flyangler18 said:


> Thanks for posting this, Lee. I totally forgot about this chat- and it's good to get some info on TWI/ASN. Definitely something to get involved in.


I forgot about it too and I was suppose to be there... Oops! Sorry about that. It looks like I missed a very good chat. FYI, before last night's chat, there were 19 stewards enrolled in ASN. As of this morning, there are 20 stewards. There are 121 registered members of TWI.

edit: I should add that we have added a new section about registering animals to the TWI web site: http://www.treewalkers.org/projects/ASN/ based in part on questions asked at the chat last night.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

So I checked out the Accession Forms for registering animals... I no longer feel bad about people complaing that it's too difficult to register animals in FrogTracks 

I wish you guys the best of luck and if you ever need anything added to FrogTracks to support the links between the two please let me know.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

*Re:*



rmelancon said:


> So I checked out the Accession Forms for registering animals... I no longer feel bad about people complaing that it's too difficult to register animals in FrogTracks
> 
> I wish you guys the best of luck and if you ever need anything added to FrogTracks to support the links between the two please let me know.


Hi Robb,

Sorry for the late reply on this but now that we have a little experience using the ARKS system under our belts, we need to see if there are ways for the two systems to support each other. I follow up on this when I get a chance.


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## Haleman50 (May 22, 2008)

Some Really good info. Keep it up guys!


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm a member and I had no idea this was on. Where/how was it announced?


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## mikebell (Mar 4, 2011)

I like this thread having information which i need most thanks.


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