# Foot rot ????



## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

I have a group of Terribilis that for some reason every few weeks they get a large blister of one of their front feet . Never the back feet . Out of a group of 5 frogs it has only effected 3 , but it's repeatly occuring . Frogs fecals are clean as are the other 2 who are uneffected .
While I can get the infection cleared with them in a qt bin and daily treatments with Silver Sufadiazine cream @ 1 % , it pops back a month or 2 later . Once the infection is noticed the frog is pulled ....again .
They all eat normaly .
Picture of frog that was removed today 








Advise ????
Happy frogging , 
Darren


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

WIERD. No chance it could be some lind of localized parasite? Are these 3 affected frogs utilizing some part of the viv not used by the other 2? Meaning they are coming into contact with something in there thats causing it upon contact?


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't have any personal knowledge on the topic but they hit upon it briefly in the following thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/37629-i-may-losing-one-my-teribilis-advice-please.html

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Good luck, and good health to your frogs!


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Could the substrate be causing this? Have you changed the substrate out before reintroducing them to the viv after the wound has healed?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are a number of possible causes ranging from something irritating the foot to infections with mycobacterium or combinations of these items. 
I've seen it in terriblis when we had some at the Zoo years ago and even in tinctorius. 

Ed


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Ed said:


> There are a number of possible causes ranging from something irritating the foot to infections with mycobacterium or combinations of these items.
> I've seen it in terriblis when we had some at the Zoo years ago and even in tinctorius.
> 
> Ed


What did you guys do to treat it and did it keep coming back?


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## Frank St (Mar 20, 2005)

I know that kind of infection from several cases when frogs were kept to wet, e.g. the tanks looked more like "aqua-cultures" than terraria...You should try and keep the frogs way drier, create partial dry spaces, oak leaves are slightly anti-septic and are good for drating dry seating-space! Also check if the frogs may hurt themselves, or their feet on substrate or else, small punctural wounds can get infected easily and the result may be wounds like abscessus and your case reminds me of that! You should consider changing the substrate your frogs sit on, bacteria love moist-warm climate and thats why I only use styrofoam for the bottom..it´s easy to clean with hot water and parasites and bacteria can be controlled easier! Also avoid treatment with antibiotics as good as you can to avoid creating resistant tribes! You can try to use a strong chamomilla-tea for desinfecting the wounds. Seperate the frog, keep it sterile like in a tank with nothing but oak leaves and a bit of wood for hiding....if the case happens again and agian, you can be sure there is something wrong with your artificial environment!
The wetter is not the better!! 80% of kept frogs are kept way to wet and people think rainforest has got to be like that, but that is not the fact...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

As I stated in another thread, I keep my terribilis quite wet. If it were conditions, you`d think all 3 would get it. Esp since youve cured it repeatedly while the others remained in those conditions. Have you tested for TB? The scenerio seems to be something that is affecting one since it is stressed or something that one did to it`s foot which won`t heal. If it cut it and got a piece of coco fiber or something in there it may be recurring bacterial infections. Considering the treatment for TB I would get that checked first.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Here is a link to a picture of a mycobacterium lesion in terriblis PetHobbyist photo gallery 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

looks like you've hit the nail on the head there ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Marinarawr said:


> I don't have any personal knowledge on the topic but they hit upon it briefly in the following thread:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/37629-i-may-losing-one-my-teribilis-advice-please.html
> 
> Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Good luck, and good health to your frogs!


I wouldn`t take my advice on that one, I got bad rep for that statement. "Don`t try to be a vet, your no good at it." So maybe you should ask that person for advice on the situation.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey,

I wondered how your Teribilis are doing? Mine now shows the exact same issue your does. :/


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## bbookhamer (Jun 25, 2008)

Darren where in the pacific NW are you located? I am a vet and would be glad to help out but I am New York currently. I would recommend you go to a local vet to have cytology and culture/sensitivity pursued so the culprit can be discovered and treated appropriately. Make sure the vet is up to date on exotic medicine as most are not. Dermal infections are almost always secondary to husbandry related issues or some disturbance of the epidermis. Send me a PM and I may be able to suggest a vet in your area.

Bryant Bookhamer, DVM


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

I'm just north of Seattle . That's been my biggest problem is finding a local vet that I can trust . While the frogs are doing fine in QT the infection clears up quiclky with daily foot bath in SSD mixed in water and a quick swap directly with SSD after the bath a infection has to be present in the 3 frogs . As I have said before 2 other still in the viv have NEVER experessed any symptoms ( in coco hut breeding currently) go on like always . So it's been difficult wrapping my brain around , infection from the viv somthing they are rubbing on as they hop ??? Then you'd think all of them would show the same issues . Frogs were 100% squeeky clean as they went in the viv . All the plants were treated with a bleach and vinigar bath before planting . Soil (coco fiber and spagnum moss) all rehydrated with hot boiling water . Only other vectors I can concieve of is the springtails and dwarf wood lice ???/
I did notice after the first "outbreak" once I pulled the same 3 frogs that there were sprintails inside the wounds . I wondered if the springtails were feeding on the frogs as everyone knows who have kept them for any time terribilis can sit in one spot for hours w/o moving .
So yes , I NEED A GOOD LOCAL VET I CAN TRUST ! So I can have the cytology and culture/sensitivity and treated appropriately . Though I do fear that they could have mycobacterium . As the symptoms do fit . And the hard fact is that just means they are as good as dead if they do . 
They were hold backs from my stock I've had for just about 10 years now that hail from Wolfe imports . So I thought I'd better get another group going as my OG'S are getting up there . Sucky days for me in the frog room ...been a hard week for me . Atleast I have offspring , tads , and breeders from the line still so not all is lost .
Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Darren, I was reccomended Dr. Maas in Bothell from the guy who owns the serpentarium in Monroe, supposed to know his [email protected]#t. phone number is 425 486 9000
Hope this helps and hopefully you are still having a WADS meeting this month


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Yes have just spoken to Dr. Maas . Nice guy have meet him at our local herp shows . Going to get him a swab this next week .
Thanks and happy frogging , 
Darren


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Well off to the vet me and my terribilis went $46.00 . Swab came back clean for mycobacterium $35.00. That was the good part of the day . Then he took a small sample of the leasion to go out to the lab and have a compleate work up done $148.00 . He then recommended that I can do a few different things ,1 kill the frog and have a compleate necropsy done so I would know 100% what the issue is with the 3 frogs and heck 1 dead frog is better than 3 . Or take the frog home and treat as I have been and wait until the test came back them treat accordingly . Of course I chose the later ! 
So out to pay the $ 260.00 vet bill . He comes out and gives me some antil fungal bath to place the frog in for 30 min a day , and says it's safe as can be . some stuff refered to f-10 sc . says it's on the house .
I come home and mix up the solution according to the directions and place the frog in the container with a 1/4 in solution . So I start on feeding my tads . I look over and the frog is face down flat out DEAD !!! not more than 6-10 min. later ! 
I called the vet and he said he could now do a necropsy if i wanted him to send it off , but free of charge of course . So off to the vet me dead terribilis go . Currently waitting for the results . 
And not soo happy frogging .........
Darren


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Bummer Darren, I'm sorry to hear the bad news. Hopefully the necropsy reveals something other than "infection" or "inflamation". And hopefully the rest of your guys pull through. 
-mark


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Oh I am so sorry to hear that.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Yikes! Sorry to hear that darren, he was highly reccomended to me.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

omg i am so sorry to hear that. 

you might want to try getting a hold of some floxal ointment (it is supposed to have a light bit of baytril in it), I have been using this on my guy with the same issue for a few days now and he is starting to heal and eat again.


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

my frog never lost any weight , and ate quite well . 10.5 grams at death . I'm not treating the frogs with ANYTHING until I find what the issue was . I was able to get the infection to clear with ssd treatments , but it poped back a montrh or so later . So it's my belief that you can treat the frog .. but it's best to know what it is you are treating for in the first place . 
Happy frogging , 
Darren


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Darren Meyer said:


> my frog never lost any weight , and ate quite well . 10.5 grams at death . I'm not treating the frogs with ANYTHING until I find what the issue was . I was able to get the infection to clear with ssd treatments , but it poped back a montrh or so later . So it's my belief that you can treat the frog .. but it's best to know what it is you are treating for in the first place .
> Happy frogging ,
> Darren


The floxal is what I was given after the frog was swabbed, so it is being treated according to what is wrong with it.

Hopefully you will be able to find something that will work for your guys too!

It is so saddening when these little guys get sick, but even more saddening that still years later not much progress has been made to develop medicine specifically for amphibians. I remember an issue I had long ago with a fungal infection on a frog I got from petco, it too had to be treated with an eye ointment, now 10 years later i am treating another frog with yet another eye ointment. :/


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## bbookhamer (Jun 25, 2008)

Sorry Darren. Hopefully necropsy reveals the etiology and an appropriate treatment for your other affected frogs. Let me know what happens.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Darren -

Very sorry to hear about your loss. I wasn't familiar with F10SC - so I looked a little bit into it. From most of the info I could find about it, it is a veterinary disinfectant developed in South Africa that is popular in Australia, and is starting to become popular in the UK. The active antimicrobial ingredients are polyhexamethylene biguanide (a biguanidine compound, 4 gram/liter) and benzalkonium chloride (a quaternary ammonium, 54 gram/liter). 

What dilution did you use this treatment at? In Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, it is reported that quaternary ammoniums can cause skin lesions and at high enough concentrations can be toxic. There are some reports in the literature of using F10SC to control chytrid (dilution 1:1000 for 1 minute exposure) - but that is on surfaces or solutions of chytrid zoospores - not on frogs directly (Webb et al, 2007. _Additional disinfectants effective against the amphibian chytrid fungus Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis_). The use of F10SC as an actual baths for tadpoles was found to be either ineffective (against Bd) - or toxic to the tadpoles (Young et al, 2007. _Amphibian chytridiomycosis: strategies for captive management and conservation_).

So - as a surface treatment - I could see using it at the appropriate dilution. But sadly, as you already know, I don't think a bath/soak would be an appropriate treatment for an amphibian. Maybe Ed has some more knowledge of this product.

Also - how was Mycobacterium presence tested for? They can be hard to see just from an impression smear, and biopsy is often more telling. They don't always stain positive (acid-fast) either. Culture can be hit or miss as well. It is one of the reasons that a definitive diagnosis for Mycobacterium can be so tough. But the lesions on the terribilis look a lot like Mycobacteria infection - so I don't know if I would pass on that diagnosis from a single smear.

Oz


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## Jerseylotte (Apr 19, 2008)

Hiya Darren,

I'm really sorry to hear that your Vet suggested F10 as a bath  I can only assume he was not truly an amphibian specialist and had the wrong end of the stick about it's suitability and appropriate use with amphibians...
Anecdotal and personal evidence suggests that even F10 residues can be toxic to amphibians.

To the original question.
I tend to agree that whatever the infection is caused by, got in secondarily to an initial problem.

Terribs are dustbins and very easy to accidently make obese, we recently had a 13g female that we considered morbidly obese, 10.5g sounds a little heavy to me.

The three main factors which seem to come up time and time again in relation to palmer lesions with these guys are; obesity and/or an unsuitably rough or overwet substrate. Weight would be a perfect reason for some of the group to be affected and not others.

How are the affected 3 for gular fat? The majority of terribs I see on the net look rather overfed to me and I do think it is a serious problem.

Lotte***


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