# Water changes ???



## kj (Jan 15, 2006)

How often do you people do water changes in your dartfrog containers. An how much do you take out. ???? Do you ever take 100 % out ??? 
KJ


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

For tads or tanks?

For tanks I used to change most of the water monthly, but now that they are established I almost never change it. The water movement and the plants keep it clean.

As for Tads I change the water weekly at almost 100%.


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## kj (Jan 15, 2006)

Opps for tadpoles sorry, Ok cool how much water do you leave in about 5 % 

Anyone take 100% out, i seen blackjungle videos and looks like they take 100% out


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

It's doable (in moderation) but not necessary in my experience. Somewhat a matter of personal taste and knowledge as to what works best for you.

Bill


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I used to do water changes 1 time a week. Now, I never do them. I just replace any water that has evaporated from the container.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

melissa68 said:


> I used to do water changes 1 time a week. Now, I never do them. I just replace any water that has evaporated from the container.


Me too. Learned it from Scott. Sure beats all the extra work. :wink: 

S


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> Me too. Sure beats all the extra work.


Me three. A little java moss keeps the cups crystal clear the whole time.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2007)

All the tads are raised in the viv. I never change the water.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Well..............I guess there's one of us in every crowd. I do a 100% water change with dechlorinated tap water about every 7-10 days. I've been doing this with my azureus, gl lamasi tads and they morph at 2 months.


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## fleenor1 (Feb 18, 2005)

I will be the fourth.....
I do about a 32 oz tad container with Spring water and Indian Almond leaf.
I feed with Tadpole bites and never do water changes.

Later,
Brad


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## Tripod (Jun 5, 2006)

For those of you who don't ever change the water, could you describe your setups for us?

Something along the lines of:

Container size,
Dirty or clean,
Food type used,
Frequency of feeding,
Single or communal,
Container environment (i.e. under lights, heated container, back of closet, etc.)

Aside from the decrease in the amount of work required to manage your tads this way, have you noticed any other differences in their development? Anything of note in regards to morph times, size, SLS, loss rate, etc.?


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## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

gary1218 said:


> Well..............I guess there's one of us in every crowd. I do a 100% water change with dechlorinated tap water about every 7-10 days. I've been doing this with my azureus, gl lamasi tads and they morph at 2 months.


me too gary species i do this with are(cobalt,oyopok,leuc,powder blue,azureus,regina)


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I stopped doing water changes when I had a population explosion with my tads. Now I average about 150-200 tads, and while there is a definite time savings, I stopped doing the water changes when I switched to tadpole bites and had over 500 tads. 

*Container size* - 16 oz deli cups
*Dirty or clean* - clean
*Food type used* - tadpole bites
*Frequency of feeding* - 2-3 times a week, mostly 2 times - but I don't keep track on a calendar. Just know it has been a few days and it is time to do again.
*Single or communal* - single
*Container environment* - have them on 4 foot chrome shelves. 4 10 gallons on the bottom shelf, and 4 10s on the top. Two shelves in the middle are not as tall and I use them as my tad, egg workspace. Total, I have 4 - 4' shelves to house all my tads, morphing froglets & eggs. I use 4 foot shop lights on all my tanks, but there are not any lights on the tad shelves.
*water* - aged tap water with a little stress coat.


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## fleenor1 (Feb 18, 2005)

*Container size* - Gladware containers. They are marked "Soup and Salad" I think that they are in the range of 32 oz. I have never measured.
*Dirty or clean* - clean 
*Food type used* - tadpole bites - If I remeber right someone from this board did an experiment with tad food and they found that their tads developed faster using the tad bites. I have used them ever since.
*Frequency of feeding* - every couple of days. I just make sure that they never go without food and I never feed again if the tads still have left overs from the last feeding. 
*Single or communal* - single. I have tried to house communially but have ended up with one big tad. He ate all the rest. :shock: 
*Container environment* - On top shelf of frog room rack. I keep my frog room temps at 70 degrees at all times.
*water* - Spring water with Indian Almond leaf to make tad tea. 

There are going to be people that swear by water changes and people, like me, that swears by no water changes. I think that they both work. But, in the case of someone like Melissa doing water changes for over 500 tads is a pain in the A$$.... Not doing water changes saves me a lot of time and I only have about 50 tads right now. I would hate to think what 500 tads would be like..... I don't think that I would want to do water changes either.

I have noticed that my loss rate has dropped considerably. The only losses I get, and they are few and far in-between, can be chalked up to the tad being weak and not living past the first week out of the egg. I cannot really tie this to if I change water or not but I really feel this has to do with the health and age of the parents.

I feel that the healthier the parent frogs are the healthier their tads are going to be. I believe that there is two main contributors of SLS, that I can control, and that the first is making sure that the parent frogs are supplemented on a regular basis. The second contributor, I feel, is the age of the parents. I have found that young pairs throw more froglets with SLS than more mature pairs. I have had Azureus pairs throw more froglets with SLS when they are young but as they got older their SLS rate went down. In no way are these scientific results, just what I have observed in me keeping darts.

I supplement on a regular basis and I also change out my supplements every six months regardless of needing it or not. I have had pairs of frogs that threw SLS froglets and after I changed out to new supplements their SLS rate started droping. 

In no way have I ever done research on these topics. I am just a hobbyist and I don't call myself an expert in any way. These are just some of the things that I have found that work for me. I have so much to learn. That is why I love this hobby, this board, and the people here so much. There is always a different way of looking at the same hobby and always something new to learn from the experts here.


That's just my two cents.....
Later,
Brad


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## kj (Jan 15, 2006)

Thanks for this, this is truning out to be a good tread  

People that dont do water changes what happens to all the poo on the bottom off the continers ???


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

My process (with pictures) can be seen at http://www.joshsfrogs.com/breeding.html

Melissa and Brad, do you guys use Java moss in your tadpole containers?


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Brad,

You might want to look into purchasing deli containers (16oz) ones instead. They end up costing around 10 cents each. 50 for ~ $5. 

That is one of the reasons we ended up going with them. Each deli container is used for about 5-6 months. I use the same container to raise the tadpole, let him come out of the water, and feed him for the first few weeks. This way, I can verify the froglets are eating and poopin'. Weak frogs can be identified easily.

Our loss rate is very low. 

I use the same container for everything by using two different lids. A tad lid with has a large hole & a morphing lid which has drainage holes. The containers are easily stackable and I usually stack them 2 high.

Melissa


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## fleenor1 (Feb 18, 2005)

Josh-
I have never used any of the Java Moss but I have used other aqua plants that I have gotten at the local Petsmart. They worked pretty well for me and even got a couple of the small snails that I would crush for the tads to eat. They seemed to really like the extra protein..... I don't really use anything other than a piece of the Indian almond leave (about the size of half a dollar bill) in the tad containers right now but, I do still use some of the plants in my morphing containers. I like to have something for them to climb up onto other than climbing up the side of the containers just in case I don't get to them in time and risk drowning. 

Melissa- 
I really like using the Gladware containers. I have thought about getting something different like a deli cup like you use but have never pulled the trigger. I usually get them in packs of 5 and only get them when they are on sale. They usually cost about $2.50 for 5. I stack mine four high so they don't take up too much space and I can re-use them indefinitely. They are clear with a blueish top so I can see into them with no problem. Now, if I had as many tads as you do I know I would be using something else. I have been in amazement since reading that you have over 500 tads. I don't know if I could handle that. I give you credit!

KJ- 
The tad poop really doesn't pose a problem in my containers. It is there and it is noticeable but it really doesn't accumulate so much that it creates a problem for the tads.

Later,
Brad


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't have 500 now. I think the highest we were up to was 800. Now, I average between 150 - 200. I can see it getting a little higher soon, with all the eggs I have been pulling in the last few days . 

Melis


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

joshsfrogs said:


> My process (with pictures) can be seen at http://www.joshsfrogs.com/breeding.html
> 
> Melissa and Brad, do you guys use Java moss in your tadpole containers?


No, actually I don't use any living moss in my containers. I place a piece of NZ sphagnum in each container so the tad can munch on something if he gets hungry. I don't like using live plants because of the potential of cross contamination. 

That is actually how i ended up getting the methods I use now. I tried raising tads communally, and used live plants too - but I had too many issues. Strange deaths, fungus, etc....

Melis


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

(stealing Melis's template)

I also only top tad containers off - no water changes unless one gets really funky. My tad setup is ready for nearly 300 tads, but I try to keep it at 1/2 capacity for my sanity.

*Container size* - 5.5 oz solo cups
*Dirty or clean* - clean (not sure what this was going for - but if I am reading it right - every tad gets a brand new container)
*Food type used* - Mix of tad bites, spirulina, chlorella, Naturose, Cyclopeeze, Paprika, and fish flakes
*Frequency of feeding* - once a week or so
*Single or communal* - single
*Container environment* - In sterilite "racks" - 16 tad containers per shelf, 3 shelfs/rack. Racks are set up on a 4 ft. wire rack - middle shelf (up off the floor). No extra heating/lighting
*water* - aged tap water with start right (water treatment). All tad cups also contain broken pieces of almond leaves - serve as a food source and "tadpole tea"

A note about the containers. I used to use the small gladware containers (8/package for $3). But the number of tads I was keeping made that to be prohibitive. So I found 5.5oz condiment cups on Ebay. You can often find cases (600-2500) on sale for extremely cheap. I found a case of 5.5oz cups (2500) for $0.99 plus shipping.

Also important to note is that the vast majority of tads I raise are thumbs. I have tried a cup this size with Azureus froglets - but find that they are a little small. For Azureus tads, I raise them communally in Sterilite shoe boxes set up the same way as the small cups.

Loss rate is minimal. I have had SLS in the past with new breeders of a couple of species - but it quickly went away, and I believe to be independent of the way the tads were reared. Like Brad mentioned - IME SLS has more to do with the nutrition and age of the breeders.


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## Tripod (Jun 5, 2006)

Lots of great information so far...keep it up! This is just what many of us needed.

I have one other question to pose concerning feeding. For those that feed once a week, how much food do you use per tadpole?

For example:

Tinc tads = xxx Frogbites per week
Thumbnail tads = yyy Fish crisps per week


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Not to avoid your question, but it varies. 

Each species is different. 

I probably feed my Orange galac tads the heaviest, and my vent tads the least. 

In addition, it depends on age. Older froglets get more food than ones that have just hatched. 

Like anything else, with the tadpole bites, it is trial and error. Feed them a little bit, check back in a day or two and see if there is any left. If there isn't you need to feed them more. If there is, you need to feed them less.

Melis



Tripod said:


> Lots of great information so far...keep it up! This is just what many of us needed.
> 
> I have one other question to pose concerning feeding. For those that feed once a week, how much food do you use per tadpole?
> 
> ...


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

The minimum amount of water that I have successfully used without changing for a single tadpole is around 1.5 cups. I've experimented with many different sized containers and when you go too small tads start dying after a month or so. Keep it above 1.5 cups and a single tad per container and this will work. There are exceptions as always and animals like pumilio can be raised in an ounce of water without ever changing. This is the minimum I have found for larger darts. Also I use Tetra Tabi-min tablets for bottom feeders, broken into appropriate size per tad fed once or twice a week. As far as their crap... the ammonia and other nasties are neutralized by different bacteria and the rest of the detritus is probably re-eaten to some degree.

If you want to raise communally you need to do water changes or have some type of filtration in place.


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