# Mass exodus from hobby?



## Digitalfreq (Jan 11, 2013)

Hi everyone, this is my first real post to the community. I have not started an intro or build thread since i dont have anything to show yet, but soon! i have two tanks in the works. 

BUT, 

I have noticed that there has been a lot of hobbyist/breeders that have left the hobby in the last year. I was wondering if anyone can shed some light as to why. Someone told me because there was a shortage of crickets. Crickets? I thought PDF main/easiest source of food is FF? There has to be some other explanation.


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

I dont think there have been any more leaving than what was typical to any other year. I didnt see many of the bigger breeders really leaving except SNDF, but last I knew he had been slowly trying to get smaller to have time for other things in life. Most of the people who do sell entire collections usually have other things going on in life and realize that they just dont have the time to commit to a large collection any more. I know a lot of them typically keep a group or two of their favorites, but just dont have the time for 20+ tanks, and the hundreds of tads and froglets that will typically go along with that many frogs. And since they are selling all of their frogs, someone else will become a producer at that point, or someone who already is a producer will just be becoming a larger producer so not much is really lost, just trading hands per say.

I would say overall this hobby is still growing at a very rapid rate.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

I think many people get burned out because they end up buying frogs just because they are available, not because they love that particular species. Then they end up having to care for frogs they really don't want.

Also, I finally realized that you don't have to have breeding pairs of every species you own. I had been trying to find another azureus and another luec to get breeding, and said "wait, there's no rule that says I have to breed" so now I just enjoy single frogs of some species.

My $.02


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## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

Like any hobby people come and go all the time. Sometimes life just gets in the way of enjoying the hobby. I currently have two hobbies to keep me interested and busy. One is PDF and the other is scale plastic models. The beauty of building scale plastic models is if I get bored or don't have the time I just set them aside and can do other things with no worry. With PDF's you just can't do that. I can't tell you how many times my interest in keeping tropical fish has come and gone. I will keep them for years and then decide to take a break from them. I just don't replace any lost fish and once they are all gone, take the tank(s) down.


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

As far as reptiles and amphibians go I would say that PDFs are pretty high maintenance compared to a lot of other things. Plus if you have even a modest collection it takes up a lot of room what with all the FF cups, tadpole cups and usually a plant grow out tank or two. At least for me the cycle usually involves slowly building up a large collection over a few years (usually including more than just PDFs) and then suddenly realizing that the hour a day it takes to care for it all just isn't always there. Then I will sell a bunch of it off and the cycle starts over. We recently had a baby so currently I am in the "streamline" phase. In the end I think it's important to realize that people are no less passionate about the hobby if they only have a couple tanks than a whole room of them.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Time and money. Plus, there are a lot of people that buy way too much at once and spread themselves thin.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Rain_Frog said:


> Time and money. Plus, there are a lot of people that buy way too much at once and spread themselves thin.


I agree. 
That's what happened to me. I got back into the hobby after a break (due to the birth of my daughter). When I got back in, I said that I was gonna have some of everything, and bought anything I could get my hands on even if I didn't really want them ... bad move.
I went from nothing to about 15 tanks in a few months time. Ok fine. Then everything started breeding at once & I just couldn't keep up with the 3 hrs of work everyday bc I refused to let their care degrade.

Eventually I cut my collection back to allow time for life. I decided to only keep what I really want to keep & will only purchase the frogs I really want in the future. In the process I've also streamlined my routine so now as my collection grows again, I will be better prepared to accommodate the responsibility to my animals and really enjoy what I have instead of doing it out of obligation.


But anyways ... enough about me.
Another reason people get out besides growing too large too quickly is that sometimes people just jump into it on a whim without really researching it & then lose interest as the novelty of it wears off. Then they decide its not what they thought it would be & sell it off.

But in all honesty, I've been seeing more new people come in, then I've seen getting out. 
Some of those new people will be here long term & the others will disappear. That's just the way it goes in any hobby. Dart Frogs are no exception.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Same as it ever was. Just easier to notice these days.

s


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Part of the problem is that people get into this and think they will make $$$$$. That unfortunately is not the case. I just enjoy seeing the frogs and watching the tads grow up. Occasionally I get some money back from the hobby when I sell some froglets, but I have put far more into the hobby than it will ever return.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

There are a few explanations that have been stated. There are also people tired of the forums. There are certainly forums that are not as collaborative or open. They choose to leave online and just stick to frog meetings.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Doesn't explain why they're selling off all their frogs in the Classifieds though Jason. 

s


JJuchems said:


> There are a few explanations that have been stated. There are also people tired of the forums. There are certainly forums that are not as collaborative or open. They choose to leave online and just stick to frog meetings.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I've seen it in many hobbies, I don't think it is anything unique to the dendrobatid/amphibian hobby.

While I was playing paintball, you'ld see guys show up for a season, drop $2000 for tourney caliber guns and gear, and then loose intrest, yet the little kid with a cheep spider would be out there everyweek.

Same thing with the reef hobby, herp hobby, PC gaming, RC cars.

I'm guilty on the RC cars, loved them for a long time, invested alot into Gas and Electric before growing tired of it.


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Vivarium Concepts is shutting down also  Cindy was a big help to many people in this hobby, she will definitely be missed! 

But i can understand how time consuming a large collection is. Sometimes people need to free up time for other journeys in life. 

All the "old timers" that are stepping away from the hobby deserve a big thanks for paving the way, a thanks for helping so many, a thanks for passing on their knowledge, and a great big thanks for all the frogs that are still in the hobby! 

Casper


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> Part of the problem is that people get into this and think they will make $$$$$. That unfortunately is not the case. I just enjoy seeing the frogs and watching the tads grow up. Occasionally I get some money back from the hobby when I sell some froglets, but I have put far more into the hobby than it will ever return.


Money I get from breeding frogs gets set aside for their maintenance and veterinary care. 

The biggest problem I've had with keeping frogs in general is food. I am a broke college student so vacations are out of the question for me, but one of the biggest pains is trying to find someone who can frog sit while you're gone. I haven't needed to, but I probably will pretty soon.

If you have a few frogs, no big deal. But breeding adults, tadpoles, froglets, quarantined sick individuals, etc., it's very difficult to trust anyone other than another frog keeper. I know a lot of frog keepers who have someone to watch the frogs for them. However, if you're more isolated from other frog keepers like me (I don't live in the coast where tons of frog keepers live), it becomes very difficult to find someone you trust.

We live in a society now where people change careers about seven times in their lives. Moving is common place. It's very difficult to keep any pet long term when you are always traveling or moving. With dogs and cats, you can put them in a crate. They can be outside, rain or shine, heat or cold, because they're warm blooded. I cannot move into a new place unless the AC or heating is already working.



> There are a few explanations that have been stated. There are also people tired of the forums. There are certainly forums that are not as collaborative or open. They choose to leave online and just stick to frog meetings.


That includes me. I was on this site multiple times a day years ago, but now I only briefly visit the forums every few days or weeks. I've been posting a lot more lately because life has finally quieted down and I'm on winter break-- for a few more days. Anymore, most of my conversations are private, but I have a lot of them.

Another reason why I've been in the hobby for a long time because I've added animals very slowly-- until I master breeding or maintaining one-- and then I rotate what I breed like a zoo. 

But as everyone knows, I'm cutting way back because I could be moving at some point. But the species I hope to keep will be put in rubbermaid bins before the move like a vivarium "trailer park."


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Also, I believe it's far better to have many of one species instead of many different species with few individuals.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Ghost vivs said:


> Vivarium Concepts is shutting down also  Cindy was a big help to many people in this hobby, she will definitely be missed!
> 
> Casper


I believe the change of the hobby has a significant part of the larger retail/breeders leaving. The availability and access to frogs has significantly changed. We are are smaller niche in herpetocultural, yet I have seen a steady growth in the hobby and availability at the shows (at least the ones I attend in the Midwest.)


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## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

JJuchems said:


> There are a few explanations that have been stated. There are also people tired of the forums. There are certainly forums that are not as collaborative or open. They choose to leave online and just stick to frog meetings.


That is why I tend to cringe a little bit when I see someone new ask a question that may have been asked a dozen times already or seems really stupid to more knowledgeable members and they get jumped on. No easier way to scare someone out of the hobby then that.

In any hobby the member’s skill and knowledgebase range greatly. Some members enjoy spreading their skill or knowledge to others while some tend to 
keep that stuff to themselves. Maybe it is personality or their level of confidence in what they know, maybe some don't care to share, some may look down at those with less knowledge them themselves. All I know is that people ask questions to learn and that should be encouraged.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

Same thing with the reef hobby, herp hobby, PC gaming, RC cars.

I'm guilty on the RC cars, loved them for a long time, invested alot into Gas and Electric before growing tired of it.[/QUOTE]

I got a 500 dollar nitro revo with dust all over it. During a state move had to sell my small collection. Years later, now im starting my bigger collection
Rain frog, I keep one display the rest rubbermaid because im constantly moving


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

JJuchems said:


> There are a few explanations that have been stated. There are also people tired of the forums. There are certainly forums that are not as collaborative or open. They choose to leave online and just stick to frog meetings.


I haven't looked around for numbers, but I get the impressionistic sense that the various related online hobby forums (for aquariums, herps, orchids, etc.) are becoming less popular, while people are still joining the hobbies through other venues, such as Facebook and local clubs. I think this might be a "trend".


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

hydrophyte said:


> I haven't looked around for numbers, but I get the impressionistic sense that the various related online hobby forums (for aquariums, herps, orchids, etc.) are becoming less popular, while people are still joining the hobbies through other venues, such as Facebook and local clubs. I think this might be a "trend".


Its quite possible and that's fine, but I feel the forums have much more to offer, and while social sites are available, they're missing that certain "thing" that you can only find in a forum atmosphere.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

hydrophyte said:


> I haven't looked around for numbers, but I get the impressionistic sense that the various related online hobby forums (for aquariums, herps, orchids, etc.) are becoming less popular, while people are still joining the hobbies through other venues, such as Facebook and local clubs. I think this might be a "trend".


I don't think I totally agree with this at least in the case of orchids. If you look at the American Orchid Society's membership, there has been a consistent and significant decline for years now. Stop by any of the numerous orchid forums and there's probably over 100 new posts a day on each. 

I think being able to share information with someone hours away with just the stroke of a keyboard is great for the dispersal of information, but there is definitely something about actually watching or listening to someone answer your question that makes it worthwhile.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

I spoke with a co-worker a couple months ago that has a bit of a stake/history in the pet trade. He was making sharing observations of how much the PDF trade has exploded in the past few years. He seemed to think the market was pretty good. 

I too though have seen some forum decline at the local level. I am active with an aquarium group. Granted, there has only been a few really ACTIVE members, but we still go weeks at times without a major conversation or update.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Another thing to keep in mind would be that a lot of the "frog gods" that have been in the hobby 10-20+ years rarely, if ever, post on forums like DB. It seems that the more hardcore and wizened someone gets, the less they are interested in the transient aspects of dart frogging.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Dane said:


> Another thing to keep in mind would be that a lot of the "frog gods" that have been in the hobby 10-20+ years rarely, if ever, post on forums like DB. It seems that the more hardcore and wizened someone gets, the less they are interested in the transient aspects of dart frogging.


True...and there are many times I begin to write something and decide to delete it, to avoid sounding like a jaded prick


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

cbreon said:


> True...and there are many times I begin to write something and decide to delete it, to avoid sounding like a jaded prick


So you're a "Frog God" then...?


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

jacobi said:


> So you're a "Frog God" then...?


Just to clarify, 'frog god,' no, but I have been around for 11 years, so...


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

cbreon said:


> Just to clarify, 'frog god,' no, but I have been around for 11 years, so...


We'll go with minor froggy deity


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

jacobi said:


> We'll go with minor froggy deity


Thanks...obviously what I was getting at


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> Another thing to keep in mind would be that a lot of the "frog gods" that have been in the hobby 10-20+ years rarely, if ever, post on forums like DB. It seems that the more hardcore and wizened someone gets, the less they are interested in the transient aspects of dart frogging.


That's where Facebook, email, and phone numbers come in handy. I keep in contact with a few of the "Frog Gods" this way.

It's comparable to Jedi Masters ascending to another plane and a new frog Padawan must use the Force and use other mediums besides this dimension called the public forum.

Many of the experienced keepers are thrilled to talk to people, but private is best-- because there's more time for that. Which is more of a priority-- using hours to care for your histrionicus and 100+ vivariums, or spending hours talking on a forum?

And while I'm typing this message, I realize I once again, got distracted from working on my scholarship application.  

See my point


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Alright everybody, Star Wars references have been made... Time to close this thread.... Haha


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## Digitalfreq (Jan 11, 2013)

Thank you for everyone's response. I am glad to know that this hobby is thriving. I wish my build would be quicker, I've found that getting supplies for this hobby is harder to come by than reefing. Everything requires shipping. Either way I'm super excited.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

My local garden store sells a lot of vivarium supplies. You can usually find coco peat bricks, sphagnum, hydroton, orchid bark, etc. at many garden stores.


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## Plantman (Jul 28, 2009)

From what I can tell hobbyists have gone down in numbers since the financial crisis of 2008. When times are tough the hobby is the first thing to go, I'm sorry to say. I especially notice this in the ads- Nobody is buying.

I also feel like people are concentrating on doing one or a few tanks extremely well as opposed to keeping a huge number of species. This is arguably a positive development I think.

A hobby like this takes time, energy and money. Even things you wouldn't necessarily think about as costly or time consuming actually are. For example I keep all my tanks on IKEA furniture, and through the years they have been absorbing splashes of water here and there. Now, they are in such a bad shape that I really should exchange them. Meaning -money and -time. Also I eventually had so many animals that they needed more time than I had to take care of them properly, and this should never happen. Even if you decide to "automate" as much care as possible, you still have equipment failing on you every once in a while, which means more time and money is going to have to be spent.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Plantman said:


> A hobby like this takes time, energy and money. Even things you wouldn't necessarily think about as costly or time consuming actually are. For example I keep all my tanks on IKEA furniture, and through the years they have been absorbing splashes of water here and there. Now, they are in such a bad shape that I really should exchange them. Meaning -money and -time. Also I eventually had so many animals that they needed more time than I had to take care of them properly, and this should never happen. Even if you decide to "automate" as much care as possible, you still have equipment failing on you every once in a while, which means more time and money is going to have to be spent.


Frogging can be relatively cheap in the long run if you start out with good quality, durable stuff. I.E. baker's racks last forever, a good misting pump will last for a decade or two, and a well made viv can go for many years without needing any serious attention. 
The only regular expenses that I face when it comes to my personal collection are electricity (which I mitigate by running a reverse day cycle for a lower kw/hr rate), water (about $20/month for bottled), and fly media (I don't like making my own).


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Take what you want from this because it could mean a lot of things... But I think this at least goes to show something has changed in recent years:


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Plantman said:


> From what I can tell hobbyists have gone down in numbers since the financial crisis of 2008. When times are tough the hobby is the first thing to go, I'm sorry to say. I especially notice this in the ads- Nobody is buying.
> 
> I also feel like people are concentrating on doing one or a few tanks extremely well as opposed to keeping a huge number of species. This is arguably a positive development I think.
> 
> A hobby like this takes time, energy and money. Even things you wouldn't necessarily think about as costly or time consuming actually are. For example I keep all my tanks on IKEA furniture, and through the years they have been absorbing splashes of water here and there. Now, they are in such a bad shape that I really should exchange them. Meaning -money and -time. Also I eventually had so many animals that they needed more time than I had to take care of them properly, and this should never happen. Even if you decide to "automate" as much care as possible, you still have equipment failing on you every once in a while, which means more time and money is going to have to be spent.


The problem is that your tanks are on IKEA things. From an interior designers perspective they are the sh*t end of the stick with Ashley


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> Take what you want from this because it could mean a lot of things... But I think this at least goes to show something has changed in recent years:


I remember that particular time period........the saga of the missing blue jeans!


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

illinoisfrogs said:


> I remember that particular time period........the saga of the missing blue jeans!


are you implying that a lot of those users may have been sitting behind their screen with some popcorn?


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

illinoisfrogs said:


> I remember that particular time period........the saga of the missing blue jeans!


Has it really been 3 years? Gladly[or sadly] that drama is behind us. I'd like to think the DB community has healed...never forgotten, but wiser.
Scott


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm pretty sure a large part of that number was robot "crawlers" for websites.

For awhile the numbers of robotic crawlers was very large.

s


carola1155 said:


> Take what you want from this because it could mean a lot of things... But I think this at least goes to show something has changed in recent years:


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