# what is the legal status of Historinocus in the us?



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey,

Doe anyone know what is the legal status of D. Hitorinocus in the US?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

The species is legal but that does not mean that specific frogs are. In other words, there have been a fair number of histrionicus legally imported to the US, but only 87 animals have been imported legally since 1997 and I suspect most of those were for zoos. So I would suggest verifying the legallity of the specimen(s) carefully.


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## frogsoftheworld (Oct 20, 2007)

heres some good pics.
http://www.frognet.org/gallery/kikker-histrionicus


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

more shots, that make me want to get some. 

what about importing captive bred animals from Europe?


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## frogsoftheworld (Oct 20, 2007)

you can try just ask around ask http://www.understoryenterprises.com/ ask these guys they import all kinds of frogs they might get some for you.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

except they are in Canada and then there is another issue bringing them into the US.


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## frogsoftheworld (Oct 20, 2007)

they do all the paper work (i think but i know they supply it at least) other on this site get frog fromthem and the have no probs. just email the moderatore of that site.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

ok, thanks for the tip, will contact Mark and see what he saids.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Histrionicus are notoriously difficult to keep and breed in captivity, which is why they're probably not prevalent in the US hobby.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i like a challenge


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## elscotto (Mar 1, 2005)

That's great, Julio, it's just too bad that the frogs likely wouldn't like the challenge of you trying to keep them...


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i've kept them in the past, so i do have experience with them, so if you dont' know now you know


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## frogsoftheworld (Oct 20, 2007)

hope i could help


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I am sitting here about to fall out of my chair in disbelief that nobody has chimed in here yet to clear this up with some truth (excuse Brent... his comments were before this all went south), but I guess I will have to again... Understory does not import Histos and I am near 100% sure they never have. Histos are from Ecuador and Columbia... Understory has their operation in Peru. Neither Ecuador or Columbia allow legal exportation anymore, so frogsoftheworld, whoever told you that Understory got them some histos was blowing smoke up you a.... well, I'll just leave it at that. Just to be on the soapbox for a bit, but I have noticed that there is a lot of really bad information being thrown around on here lately as it involves legality, importing, and just asking up for the rarest frogs in the hobby. I personally think that it is rather irresponsible and think that everyone should do their best to verify information before spreading it, but that's just me I guess.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Yep, I think going to Understory would be barking up the wrong tree. Understory is pretty dedicated to only exporing animals to support conservation of wild populations. Exporting histrionicus, even if it were legal, would not be in the interest of the frogs. There are a few cb histrionicus in the US but everyone I know who has bred them, have produced only a very few offspring (perhaps 3-4 over a 10 year period) and they wisely hold those offspring for themselves. I think this is one of those species that is better admired from afar.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I would heartily recomend the third volume of Christmann's _Dendrobatidae_ series in regards to further helping one admire them.


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

Julio said:


> Hey,
> 
> Doe anyone know what is the legal status of D. Hitorinocus in the US?


I'm pretty sure it's written Histrionicus.



MonarchzMan said:


> Histrionicus are notoriously difficult to keep and breed in captivity, which is why they're probably not prevalent in the US hobby.


The same was said for pumilio when I started out this hobby. Untill more exports occured the last years and more people were able to have a go at them. Now they aren't fully established but the numbers are getting bigger each month.. Ok they aren't as widely available as pumilio's in the wild, but just saying. I happen to know of a german breeder that breeds his histrionicus & lehmanii in a few good numbers. Not that much, but more the same as people had with pumilio when they figured how to breed them. 



bbrock said:


> There are a few cb histrionicus in the US but everyone I know who has bred them, have produced only a very few offspring (perhaps 3-4 over a 10 year period) and they wisely hold those offspring for themselves. I think this is one of those species that is better admired from afar.


More and more people are starting to breed these animals and I've heard of almost everybody that has Histrionicus (Mostly german breeders) that they are quite easy to maintain as long as they aren't stressed out & are in good condition when you get them. I've been able to buy some CB animals that just passed the 6months barbier as some like to call it, but they are just way out of my budget... and I wouldn't buy them because the belgian governement doesn't accept the cites numbers of legal importations of the '90; because they think all animals have died that ever came in.. Stupid, but what can you do..

Just an extra note of me:
I'm not for smuggling animals so we could establish these frogs in the hobby. I don't have any experience myself, but of the 5 people I know that have Histrionicus/Sylvaticus, 4 of them already have offspring on land. The fifth has only had tadpoles, no froglets found for now. And the same thing was told to me when I started the hobby about Pumilio, Reticulatus, Standard Lamasi,... Those are now all fairly easy to breed, with that I mean there are a lot of people that produce them in good numbers every year. And all the pumilio I've had have all bred for me without having to do anything different than for my other thumbnails.

And before you start talking about the numbers that came in and died ect... The same thing happened with all other animals that came in when the hobby was just getting popular and the internet wasn't flooded with information on how to keep them succesfully.

I know I might have touched some sensative points, hope I haven't offended anyone, just wanted to show you guys my point of view.

Greetings,
Thomas


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> Histrionicus are notoriously difficult to keep and breed in captivity, which is why they're probably not prevalent in the US hobby.


If you can ensure that the needed climate and housing conditions (including high quality food) are given, they are notoriously easy to keep as any other dartfrog.
Breeding is a matter of contions mentioned above and matching individuals to set up breeding pairs.


Greetings
Andreas


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

flyingkip said:


> More and more people are starting to breed these animals and I've heard of almost everybody that has Histrionicus (Mostly german breeders) that they are quite easy to maintain as long as they aren't stressed out & are in good condition when you get them. I've been able to buy some CB animals that just passed the 6months barbier as some like to call it, but they are just way out of my budget... and I wouldn't buy them because the belgian governement doesn't accept the cites numbers of legal importations of the '90; because they think all animals have died that ever came in.. Stupid, but what can you do..


My comments were directed only at the situation in the US. I feel like the US is about 4-5 years behind the Europeans and very few Americans have the patience and attention to detail we see in Europe (particularly the Germans and Dutch). On the plus side, I think US and Canada have taken the smuggling issue much more seriously than Europe. Perhaps these are unfair stereotypes, but that's the way I see it.



> Just an extra note of me:
> I'm not for smuggling animals so we could establish these frogs in the hobby. I don't have any experience myself, but of the 5 people I know that have Histrionicus/Sylvaticus, 4 of them already have offspring on land. The fifth has only had tadpoles, no froglets found for now. And the same thing was told to me when I started the hobby about Pumilio, Reticulatus, Standard Lamasi,... Those are now all fairly easy to breed, with that I mean there are a lot of people that produce them in good numbers every year. And all the pumilio I've had have all bred for me without having to do anything different than for my other thumbnails.


I am still skeptical about the status of pumilio in the US. I just remember the numbers of offspring being reported from the blue jeans importations but they weren't enough to offset mortality and the population fizzled to near zero. It will take 2-3 years before I'm convinced we've succeeded.

From what I know over here with histrionicus, they produce offspring (but not abundantly) but getting those offspring to breeding adults is a challenge. Like you guys said, maintaining the animals doesn't seem to be an issue. It is the breeding that is a problem.



> And before you start talking about the numbers that came in and died ect... The same thing happened with all other animals that came in when the hobby was just getting popular and the internet wasn't flooded with information on how to keep them succesfully.
> 
> I know I might have touched some sensative points, hope I haven't offended anyone, just wanted to show you guys my point of view.


Rather than repeat myself, most of my views on the numbers dying are in this concurrent thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 1&start=60


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

bbrock said:


> My comments were directed only at the situation in the US. I feel like the US is about 4-5 years behind the Europeans and very few Americans have the patience and attention to detail we see in Europe (particularly the Germans and Dutch). On the plus side, I think US and Canada have taken the smuggling issue much more seriously than Europe. Perhaps these are unfair stereotypes, but that's the way I see it.


Okay, Interesting. You say you guys are behind on the europeans.
With tanks & technique I'd say ok. But with food and vitamines I would say it's about the same. But they thing I really admire about you guys is the threatments of sick frogs & quarantain you guys handle. 
You do fedcals on every animal you buy, you keep them in quarantain for a few weeks ect. I must agree, I've never done that. And I've been lucky so far in my few years of experience. That's the same for some of the breeders I know. We just put them in there new tank and watch their behaviour & feeding habits, and when we notice something we TRY to treat them, mostly we just treat them for worms when the animals loses weight without a real fedcal. 




> From what I know over here with histrionicus, they produce offspring (but not abundantly) but getting those offspring to breeding adults is a challenge. Like you guys said, maintaining the animals doesn't seem to be an issue. It is the breeding that is a problem.


One of the guys I'm talking about is breeding Lehmanii (both morphs) and quite a few histri morphs. He has CB animals that are breeding, offspring of his animals acquired when they where still available with cites everywhere. But a lot of them have been traded for new morphs ect.. So those could be WC or so.Not able to know if they are CB or WC.
I know he only sells his animals or trades his animals at the age of 8months. So normally they are a few months above the high mortality months.. 

I just think that the people that still have these Jewels legally should do there best to breed them and succesfully reproduce them. (No doubt that's what they are doing, but you get what I mean).
If only they could post there findings without being disturbed with all sorts of questions via Email, Phone, PB, ... I already have this with my Lorenzo, not in the high numbers that Histrionicus breeders would recieve, but enough to get it on my nerves (there are one of the rare Tinctorius morphs over the pond.)
If they could talk about having them without all the question, people would be able to share information about how they have succes. I think this has helped a lot with pumilio. More where available, they lost a bit of interest already, so they weren't disturbed that much like they would have been before the massif imports of pumilio these last years. Now you can find complete discriptions about how they had succes with there pumilio. And other dartfroggers can alter there tanks/climate more towards the succesfull onces.. And finally find the trigger.

I'm not saying they are beginner frogs :roll: . Not at all, but as a fellow dutch frogger onces told me; Dendrobates are easy if you know how to keep them. There is nothing difficult about it :lol: 

And I must say there surely is truth in that sentence.

Grtz,
Thomas


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

Oh and by the way, I keep repeating this. You believe me or not. 
Not all the European countries have a governement that just doesn't care about illegal animals. Here in belgium & The netherlands they are realy suspicious, they check every thing up to the source if it handles animals that are smuggled a lot. In the UK, France, Germany, Denmark,... they are more lacks about Cites ect. A simple certificate declaring they are CB will do for most animals. Eg: Histrionicus, Mysteriosus, vanzolinii,..

Heck here in belgium they don't even accept any papers of vanzolinii, bred by Divossen or not. They are considered illegal. All Histrionicus & Lehmanii are illegal aswell. They consider every histri/lehmanii that ever got imported in the '90 dead. So there is no way you could have offspring of those animals ect.. Stupid but that's the fact.

Grtz,
Thomas


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I don't think the issue is that other countries don't care or don't take action against smuggling. While that maybe the case at times I think the simple geographic situation in other countries plays a part in it. The US is a rare setup with a rather larger land mass that is all one country. For example in Europe you can take a train across multiple counties in a couple of hours. So Smuggling something as small as a frog in a bag or etc is rather simple.

At least form what I have heard the Europeans may not have much better luck breeding them as many of the "breeding" claims may be covering up Smuggled animals.

I would be very interested to know how some of these species do with some of the recent clay based soils. As from early testimonies the pumilio offspring seem to be greatly improved.


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

Well I know most of the 'Breeding' are coverups for WC animals, but if you see pictures of animals that still have tails, or are only 1/3 of the adult size. I think you can be sure that they are CB. Don't think smugglers will bother looking for juveniles, while they can get more money for adults that are better to find. Most people want to buy sexed animals 

Yeah, I can travel from Nord to east in about 3-4h in the train. And from West to South in aprox 2hours.. Belgium really isn't that big. Germany, The netherlands and France are much bigger. You would need a whole day at least to cross the whole country.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

flyingkip said:


> You do fedcals on every animal you buy, you keep them in quarantain for a few weeks ect. I must agree, I've never done that. And I've been lucky so far in my few years of experience. That's the same for some of the breeders I know. We just put them in there new tank and watch their behaviour & feeding habits, and when we notice something we TRY to treat them, mostly we just treat them for worms when the animals loses weight without a real fedcal.


I had to laugh here. It may appear that we are meticulous about our frog's poop, but I don't think we are. I have noticed more routine fecals being conducted but still feel safe in saying the majority of froggers (especially long term froggers) don't. I freely admit that I've only had one fecal done on a frog in 12 years. The frog was cleaned but was actually suffering from edeman (most likely from too much vitamin). Without a doubt the most poison argument I've ever witnessed in this hobby was over fecals and treating for parasites. I have no problem with routine fecal screenings at all. What I worry about is that these screening lead to unnecessary, and possibly dangerous, medical treatments that are unnecessary. The idea of a perfectly clean animal is a myth, and probably wouldn't be healthy anyway. So if people treat just because the found something, they could be jeopardizing the health of their frogs. Okay, enough of that. I won't go down that road again. The bloody trail on that debate is in the frognet archives may it R.I.P.




> If they could talk about having them without all the question, people would be able to share information about how they have succes. I think this has helped a lot with pumilio. More where available, they lost a bit of interest already, so they weren't disturbed that much like they would have been before the massif imports of pumilio these last years. Now you can find complete discriptions about how they had succes with there pumilio. And other dartfroggers can alter there tanks/climate more towards the succesfull onces.. And finally find the trigger.


Yes, this is unfortunate. But I sometimes question whether the worry about the questioning is more a myth than reality. I've been asked by several people if I get pestered a lot when I openly discuss having blue jeans pumilio (probably not as hot an item in Europe as they are over here). But the answer is no. I think most people know that pestering me about them is pointless and they are respectful. The few inquiries I do get tend to be from established froggers that I know and who are very considerate. In all the years I've talked about blue jeans, I only had one person who really hounded me. He actually offered me diamonds and other gems for some frogs. But one guy in eight years is not enough to force somebody into hiding.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't think you can really compare pumilio to histrionicus in terms of having them "figured out". Years ago it was thought that pumilio were hard to breed, raise etc. and recently people think we have them "figured out" and use this as an argument that with histrionicus we just need good healthy imports and we can get them established. Pumilio (as a whole with a few obvious exceptions) have never been hard to breed, they just weren't really available until the last several years. So you had a few individuals that had them and produced good numbers of them, but even the best pair of pumilio is only going to produce 10-15 frogs a year. The people who had pumilio early on (again with the exception of frogs like blue jeans) never really struggled with breeding them or with offspring, at least the folks that I knew. They struggled with losing some of the imports and sometimes in great numbers but the healthy animals bred and the offspring did well and reproduced as well. 

With histrionicus, I think even with healthy imports, we still will have a lot of the same problems we americans seem to have with them in terms of raising offspring etc. A lot of the europeans seem to have more success with these animals than we do and there are probably a multitude of factors that contribute to their success, but I think the least of those factors is getting in healthy animals (though obviously it is a necessary starting point). I have just always felt that histrionicus are a completely different ball game than pumilio and with pumilio, there wasn't really much in the way of husbandry changes to get them established. Again, some types of pumilio are harder than others and have some different requirements.

I am always pleased to read about the apparent successes with histrionicus over in europe, but I seldom find any information that really goes into detail about the husbandry differences. I mostly read that in europe they don't think they are that difficult of a frog. So they must be doing something different than we are, and more likely are doing a lot of things different.

So what is my point in this long-winded post? Just because we think we have pumilio figured out doesn't mean we will have the same success with histrionicus were they to ever be imported in decent numbers.


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

You might have seen the website before, I don't know.

But worth taking a look: http://www.eriks-frogs.de/

Remco


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I agree while we may have improved with pumilio care I do not think we have it figured out by any means. Are offspring increasing? maybe, but how many of them have been raised to adults which also breed? From what I know not many.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> I agree while we may have improved with pumilio care I do not think we have it figured out by any means. Are offspring increasing? maybe, but how many of them have been raised to adults which also breed? From what I know not many.


My thoughts exactly. It is deceptive because like Robb said, a few people can do really well with them. Other people do okay but not stunning. So it can appear like plenty are being produced. But on the whole, do they establish sustainable captive populations? Or does the success only last until the original breeders start dying off?


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