# Ranitomeya froglet issues



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Hey guys, this morning I noticed my ranitomeya variablillis southern froglet not really moving around. He/she has been out of water for awhile and has been feeding and growing. I tried kinda putting my finger near him to see if it would jump away. It did not. At first I was certain he was dead, but as I was preparing to take him outside I noticed he was kind of flailing. I put him in a cup with moss and filled it with water up to his waist. I was hopeful as he was moving, but now I notice as he climbs up the plastic that he really isn’t using his back legs. 
I raised him from a tadpole that I did not produce. It was purchased. Feeding on Josh’s frogs tadpole food, and bug bites on occasion. Just yesterday he was taking springtails and jumping around. If he can’t use those legs is there really no hope? Or can he maybe get buy with just 2?


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

In the photo I can’t really tell if he is just sticking to the plastic. Maybe he is using the back legs.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I don't know what's the matter, but I'd not force it to be in water/on saturated moss. 

Maybe if you give more details about the recent history, photos of the viv it was in, anything else that might help give clues, then folks could make suggestions.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I don't know what's the matter, but I'd not force it to be in water/on saturated moss.
> 
> Maybe if you give more details about the recent history, photos of the viv it was in, anything else that might help give clues, then folks could make suggestions.


I was about to say the same thing. I'd put it on a dry leaf, with moss adjacent to it.


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Here are the photos of their current setup. There are 2. They stated out in a small deli with leaf litter but now I have put them in their tank. They have been going strong for a few weeks. Also the other frog looks great still. The frog is now using his back legs to climb but is gaping


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

I gave him a leaf to sit on. I’m not going to try to move him onto it with my hands as he/she is very delicate. But it now has the option. Also I did see the bag legs definitely move freely of the upper body, still gaping


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

gusgieg said:


> still gaping


Like opening its mouth? Do you have a photo of this?


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

It’s not doing it now, I was unable to get a photo when it was. It was just holding its mouth open. No movement.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

My experience with metamorphs and froglets has mostly been with cb tincs. A time frame of work where i was under strong pressure to succeed. 
Some of these younger than what a thoughtful breeder would let go. I lived only a few blocks from my place of employment. My baby darts basically deleted any real "days off" haha. I couldnt stop myself from coming in to check them.

Frogs are aware of their vulnerability to drown just like every other air breathing organism. Yet hydration is a priority. 

In captive situ providing water can be a heavy handed human perception. An enforced immersion in water is a negative unless there is a therapeutic need of bad mobility or medicated, ionic support service. Even then it really has to be stewarded closely for struggle, stress. I may leave a snake to soak in a sphagnum mush alone for a stuck shed, but never a tiny frog.

When froglets/metaphamorphs stress I suspect an increase of heart rate and respiration that surpasses what they are able to achieve in oxygenation. This is what causes a fall of flourish. A short panic is a neg but a chronic stressor however discrete in their circumstances will affect appetite, growth and outcomes.

I cant share much else out of respect for Dendroboards culture parameters of unconventional modalities, as I understand how a very nuanced application of principle can be wildly misinterpreted when released "Free Range" on reader perception.

What I feel impelled to share in the spirit of help is that in my experience with dart neos *Stability of temperature is critical. Avoiding spikes and drops is vital. This emerged as a convergent in modality with other taxon in fragile state, in etiology myriad.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I suspect he aspirated water with his new breathing mode its a very critical transition. I suspect in native circumstances they are very careful with self location.


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Ok, I removed him from the wet moss and water. He is back in his tank and on a bromeliad. I turned the tank light off but there is still some light from the room getting in. I’ll keep an eye on him. Also I will watch the other one, it seems fine though.


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Kmc said:


> I suspect he aspirated water with his new breathing mode its a very critical transition. I suspect in native circumstances they are very careful with self location.


Would that still happen even if he/she has been out of water for at least a month?


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yes


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Still alive, no movement in the last 4-5 hours. Anything I can do to help him out other than normal husbandry? Or is he just kind of on his own as far as getting those legs better?


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If he looks composed, his limbs arranged neatly to his body its a good sign.

Its kind of a fail if he gets startled from rest and starts ambling around.

Id like to be able to suggest a wickt droplet of electrolyte support but the backfire of disturbing his rest is a problem. He knows what hes doing.


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Here is s/he most recently


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yeahh you might have to prepare yourself to let that one go. 

Id put him in a secure little Quarantine with a nice hiding cover. You could keep the box in the tank. I think hes had enough of being wet. The easiest way to apply hydration is keeping a portion of the Q floor Clear. You can either put some big drops in for him to uptake or have it slanted slightly to form a shallow line of water. It takes some intuition and micromanagement to let him be get enough without dehydrating, and watered enough without overdoing it. 
It doesnt look like he is able to regulate himself. 

I wouldn't put a lid on the Q. No matter how many holes. 

If he makes a miraculous recovery and pops out into the enclosure that would be fantastic. But hes not looking good.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

He needs to be perfectly not too dry but dry if that makes sense.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The tibia/fibula look to have an arc in them. Possibly MBD? Consistent with the 'gaping', too.

Is it possible that the froglet didn't get any supplements for the few weeks since they're been morphed?


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yeah it doesnt look good.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The swelling in part can be the bones that become spongy. But he is also bloated generally. 

If he wernt so bloated and perhaps aspirated water (which doesnt at all negate the nutritional disorder, both can co morbid, lack of good motor ) i would say he could normalize developmentally with some micromanagement and applying other pathway aid to bone and tissue development if he eats at all. 

In other taxon incl frogs (albeit litoria a far throw) babies can be cured and look normal. They can grow thru and over mbd with an assertive approach as quickly as they acquire it.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Does anyone else see a puncture type injury on right thigh that looks like its all the way thru to fascia? Please confirm or clarify the hole looking mark. At first pic - tho its just a second in time he appeared to have some vitality and if you had nothing to do with the rest of your life (levity in sad circumstance) you could try to work on him. But in the second pic he is in flaccid disarray. 
Perhaps he injured himself in struggle.

I would put him in a restful Q.


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Does anyone else see a puncture type injury on right thigh that looks like its all the way thru to fascia? Please confirm or clarify the hole looking mark. At first pic - tho its just a second in time he appeared to have some vitality and if you had nothing to do with the rest of your life (levity in sad circumstance) you could try to work on him. But in the second pic he is in flaccid disarray.
> Perhaps he injured himself in struggle.
> 
> I would put him in a restful Q.


Yeah, that is an interesting point. Look at this close-up here (played around with photoshop) - perhaps the OP could post more detail? I'm not sure if its a puncture, given there are other "dark" spots like that (e.g. right above the vent). Those could also be abrasions, a bit like I would see on a Terrib after the got very greedy during feeding, but I struggle to see how that could happen for a thumb...

That said, the colors look a bit off / dull for a southern, which makes me wonder if that could be a sympton of a deficiency (the light in both cases looks to be white)?










Coloration on one of my southerns for comparison:


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I dunno now..what do you think?


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Kmc said:


> I dunno now..what do you think?


My guess? Subject to investigating those abrasions: the coloration, the bones, what looks like bloating (but could be post-mortem), I would suggest it's something with its metabolism. I don't think color changes that quickly, even post-mortem, much less am.

What supplements have these guys been getting? Has this frog been feeding right when the FFs were put in?

You mentioned you saw them eating springtails, but what about dusted FFs? Wondering if it could be they were second in line for dusted FFs and didn't get enough supplements.

How do the other frogs in the enclosure look?


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

I haven’t actually seen them take flies yet so I don’t put in dusted ffs very often. I have though. His tank mate looks fine and I wil attach a photo. As for the ill frog he is starting to walk a little. He can use his legs at least a little. He is standing with his belly off the ground.


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

This is the other frog with him


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

As for abrasions. I am worried that I may have hurt him further when I thought he was dead. He is still able to use everything though. Also I didn’t notice a color difference between the two before you pointed it out. He is definitely less vibrant than his tank mate


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

My guess would be they are not getting enough supplements. I have no clue why he might be getting better, but I would suggest adding a few dusted melanogaster. Your second one also looks a little "pale", at least to me.

Especially over the next few days, small, frequent batches to maximize supplements. Ideally feed in two places so the other frog cannot "outcompete" this one.

Color could be due to lack of carotenoids, which are part of most supplements.

Might just be me, but especially with young ones I observe very closely to make sure they are getting fresh, dusted flies.


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

I just dropped some dusted ffs. The healthy one took them. The other one isn’t looking great now but still alive.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Im so sorry your going through this.


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Im so sorry your going through this.


I really appreciate that, and all the help you guys are. This is one of my first tries raising a frog from a tadpole. The reason for me buying it as opposed to having my own lay eggs is that I wanted to see what it would be like to raise them so that I’m ready when my own lay eggs. Fortunately as of now he seems better. He is in a quarantine and he doesn’t move a ton in prompted, but when I was checking up on him I nudged his back lightly with a leaf and he was able to produce a walk on four legs. I wish I could share videos. Even though this is a negative experience now I know in the future to look into a better tadpole diet, and try getting them on dusted ffs sooner. I’ll keep this thread updated.


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

gusgieg said:


> I really appreciate that, and all the help you guys are. This is one of my first tries raising a frog from a tadpole. The reason for me buying it as opposed to having my own lay eggs is that I wanted to see what it would be like to raise them so that I’m ready when my own lay eggs. Fortunately as of now he seems better. He is in a quarantine and he doesn’t move a ton in prompted, but when I was checking up on him I nudged his back lightly with a leaf and he was able to produce a walk on four legs. I wish I could share videos. Even though this is a negative experience now I know in the future to look into a better tadpole diet, and try getting them on dusted ffs sooner. I’ll keep this thread updated.


Really hope everything works out - it can be to a large degree reversed. I wouldn't try prodding him too much, but just make sure he has some dusted FFs nearby if hungry... If you culture springtails you could also try removing some from a culture into a glass and dusting. Then shaking out in front of it.


----------



## klc21473 (Jan 13, 2021)

I, too, am sorry you are going through this. I am impressed at how committed you are to saving him.  One good part of all this is that I am learning a lot while reading this, as I'm sure many others are as well. Keep up the good work.


----------



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Passed away earlier today. 😔
It really sucks, I still know what I need to change though for the other one. He/she is feeding on dusted flies now.
Thanks for all the help, if not for you guys I might have lost them both.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Sorry to hear that. 

I'm hoping that the other frog stays healthy


----------

