# New to Darts, questions



## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Hi. I'm a long time aquarist, both fresh and salt with a recent interest in Darts.

I've done a ton of reading on this site, but still have some questions that need answers.

The burning question right now is around frogs in groups. I see the phrase "does well in groups" used for a few different frogs, but there is never a followup explanation of what that means.

Lets take two frogs: Ranitomeya ventrimaculata, dendrobates leucomelas

One is more of an intermediate species, but both labelled "does well in groups". Josh's Frogs identifies them as such and makes a suggestion for minimum tank size.

Both have a 10 gallon listed as suitable, but the recommended is 1-3 in an 18 x 18 x 18. I know that grammatically both two and three frogs could be considered a group, but, well, that is not really what "does well in groups" implies. Also, these are different frogs, with one being a climber. Recommending that size of tank for these two frogs for a pair or trio seems not quite right.

So can one keep these frogs in groups of more than three? Under what conditions, what enclosure size and design? 

I've searched quite a bit and not found any sort of explanation of group size and under what conditions. For Ranitomeya I've found people who described their enclosures, but that's just what a few people have described, not an accepted/recommended practice.

FYI I do understand this may not be a good idea for a beginner, but I like to establish both short term and long term parameters for any hobby I enter. More knowledge is a good thing.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

fredk said:


> Both have a 10 gallon listed as suitable, but the recommended is 1-3 in an 18 x 18 x 18. I know that grammatically both two and three frogs could be considered a group, but, well, that is not really what "does well in groups" implies. Also, these are different frogs, with one being a climber. Recommending that size of tank for these two frogs for a pair or trio seems not quite right.
> 
> So can one keep these frogs in groups of more than three? Under what conditions, what enclosure size and design?


Being really general here, but “suitable” means you can make it work…but it’s probably not ideal nor recommended (by hobbyists, but a vendor you’ll note is more comfortable suggesting minimum parameters for newcomers) for longer term. Kind of like, 2-3 people _can_ live in a 300 square foot apartment, but probably not super comfortably, even if they are people in a stable social unit who might get along.

And then 10 gallons might be “suitable” for a frog, but it’s still better to have more space, if you can (it’s also an issue at that volume especsilly, the amount of space taken up by substrate and drainage layers…what you start out with as ten gallons is always much less). Some people say 5-10 gallons per frog, but it’s usually better to aim for more than 5, if you can…but then it also depends on species‘ needs and tank design. “Suitable” here means more like the minimum you could _possibly_ work with, and the “recommended” is also toward the minimal parameter, either way what a vendor wouldn’t mind people buying (more tank space is better for the frogs, but a harder sell, price-wise).


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hello and welcome to Dendroboard  .

There is no "accepted practice" for tank size, lots of recommendations and ideas, but no generally accepted practice. 

I would warn against taking tank sizing advice from a vendor, they have a specific interest in selling you things. Profit and proper animal Care can sometimes be in conflict for large vendors. 

The recommendation that I'm going to almost always make, as far as size of tank goes, is: get the biggest tank you can afford/have space for. More space, even for the same number of frogs, provides a more enriching habitat for the frogs as they have additional areas to explore and use. 

For my Ranitomeya I keep mine as follows:
Ranitomeya imitator: 1.1 pair in a 18x12x36" tank (my one oddball tank that was an aquarium conversion)
Ranitomeya uakarii: 1.2 trio in a 18x18x24" tank
Ranitomeya sirensis: 2.2.4 in a 36x18x24" tank (sirensis are very sociable for a Ranitomeya)
Ranitomeya amazonica: 0.0.3 in a 18x18x24" tank


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Welcome to DB! Interesting questions. 



fredk said:


> Also, these are different frogs, with one being a climber.


Speaking of semantics, there's some untangling to do with the term "climber". All dart frogs climb, really high -- and the species that climb higher in the wild aren't the ones you might think of; _D. auratus _has the highest documented climb that I've seen published (60 meters; link in this thread). The differences in climbing strategy between species is the interesting part. _Ranitomeya _climb fairly acrobatically, and on quite thin branches and leaves; some _Dendrobates_ such as leucomelas actually climb, and do so pretty well, but they're more clumsy, at least on objects that are too thin or flimsy; others like tinctorius walk up branches and plants and so need viv-scaping that accommodates that movement.

I've been gradually moving all my frogs into larger enclosures (yeah, a lot of teardowns), and I really like something 18 x 18 x 24 for a pair of _Ranitomeya (_about the same size as an InSitu Amazonia, a viv I highly recommend). I've found that size viv to be OK but not fantastic for a 2.2 of thumbnails or a 1.1 pair of leucs or tincs of the smaller locales, and this even with careful attention to maximizing usable space (jungle gym branches), and minimizing the wasted space of substrate/drainage (minimal or no plants in the substrate; drilled vivs with </= 2" foam drainage) and foamed backgrounds (I don't use them). For more thumbnails, or larger _Dendrobates_, bigger is much better. For _Phyllobates_, I think people get them their own apartment.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Like everyone else said, the bigger the better for tanks. I consider 24" high to be a minimum for height. Substrate and false bottoms take up a good 6" of that vertical space.

Regarding "does well in groups" -
Some frogs can only be kept in pairs. Tincs, pumilio, and imitators for example. Those frogs become too aggressive to be housed together. To the point where a dominant frog will kill his rival.
A frog that does well in groups doesn't guarantee you won't have aggression issues. It's just significantly less likely, or they're not aggressive to the point that it negatively impacts the health of the frogs. Leucomelas, auratus, and certain ranitomeya species are good in groups.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JasonE said:


> Leucomelas, auratus, and certain ranitomeya species are good in groups.


Plus Ameerega, Adelphobates, Epipedobates


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Plus Ameerega, Adelphobates, Epipedobates


And also phyllobates.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Lots of good advice here. I'd just mirror many others in saying: Use the largest enclosure that you possibly can, for any species. They will appreciate it, and so will you. As you gain more experience, you will be able to determine size requirements with more ease, and be able to test out different parameters while knowing when problems are arising. As a newcomer, you may not be able to notice aggression or bullying at first.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Hi all. Thanks for the welcome and the answers.

Fishingguy. I do understand that vendors have a basic conflict. In the aquarium and orchid worlds I've always found some that are genuinely concerned about the organisms they sell and much more honest about requirements. I thought Josh's might be a candidate.

SM. The juxtaposition of tropical forest reaching heights of 70 meters vs large vivariums 5 feet tall is not lost on me. I recall one reference to a 'ground dwelling' species being mostly found in the first two meters of the under story. It seemed like Ranitomeya liked to climb more, but maybe that is more a function of vivarium design? That's something I will keep in mind.

As to 'as large as possible', I don't think my landlord would be happy with me converting my living-room into a vivarium so I'll have to scale back my ambitions somewhat. 

I happen to have glass from an old 65 gallon I had planned to turn into a sump and was looking at 18 x 18 x 48 for a first setup. If things go well I will scale up (well, maybe more out than up).

That leads me to how I got here. I'm a plant guy and have recently taken a liking to tropical pitcher plants as well as having kept orchids for quite a while, so this setup will be as much about plants as frogs. Always wanted to keep one of the long petal Phrags and a vivarium would be perfect for this. There are also some Bulbophyllums with really interesting flowers that I think would work nicely in a vivarium.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Back to frogs. I chose vents and leucs because I like the look of them and because I can find them local or somewhat local to me. I really don't like the idea of shipping animals. I also like the idea of seeing animals and the conditions they come from first hand before purchasing, though covid does complicate that.

I see vents are rated as intermediate because of "size and speed". Do these frogs have a habit of escaping through open vivarium doors? Are they otherwise relatively easy to keep? Could I reasonably put a group of four in an 18 x 18 x 48 enclosure?

Leucomelas would seem the obvious choice as a solid beginner frog. Would a trio comfortably fit into my chosen enclosure? The big question I have here is what size enclosure I would need to scale beyond a trio?

I am leaning more towards vents in part because I find them more intriguing and in part because I'm thinking if they are relatively non-agressive and will do ok as a group of four I don't have to worry about sexing and getting rid of an unwanted male/female. Is that a reasonable expectation?

Thanks again for your help.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fredk said:


> Do these frogs have a habit of escaping through open vivarium doors?


I've had flying sirensis (a lot like vents) twice. So, yes.

I think an 18 x 18 x 48 would be appropriate for four ventrimaculata or three leucomelas, so long as it is designed well.

Getting enough light down to a Phragmipedium from 48" through a little 18" corridor, while maintaining enough area up top that's both climbable and not too bright (darts like it pretty shady) isn't a project that I'd try to pull off. I've not grown Phrags, but my wife does (in natural light), and I grow minicatts under lights, so I think my concern isn't completely off base. It isn't a very usable plant for frogs, either (the area above would have to be wasted space so the inflorescence would have room), so not a great choice.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

You might find, in Canada here anyway, the price of R.ventrimaculata may not be the investment you want to make to start out.


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

Welcome to the hobby! I would recommend doing research somewhere other than the website of a big vendor. There are a lot of helpful threads here on Dendroboard about pretty much any topic under the sun. Keep in mind that everybody here has a different experience, and we have all come up with something that works for us. My biggest tip is to go with the largest enclosure that you can afford. Our enclosures are nothing with regards to the scale of the rainforest. These animals will always use as much space as you give them. Sure, frogs will live and breed in a ten gallon enclosure, but their mental health is also an important factor. 
-Oscar


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I've had flying sirensis (a lot like vents) twice. So, yes.


Hmm, not what I wanted to hear.


> I think an 18 x 18 x 48 would be appropriate for four ventrimaculata or three leucomelas, so long as it is designed well.


Good news. I got this part right.


> Getting enough light down to a Phragmipedium from 48" through a little 18" corridor, while maintaining enough area up top that's both climbable and not too bright (darts like it pretty shady) isn't a project that I'd try to pull off. I've not grown Phrags, but my wife does (in natural light), and I grow minicatts under lights, so I think my concern isn't completely off base. It isn't a very usable plant for frogs, either (the area above would have to be wasted space so the inflorescence would have room), so not a great choice.


I have to look more into lighting on such a tall enclosure. I'm not impressed with what I see in the way of hobby specific lights. They appear grossly over priced for what they are. Maybe they use quality components though. It's hard to tell.

I'm leaning towards Home Depot plant lights as the most cost effective, or I could go all in and use what the pot growers use: high quality/reliability at a price. That is what I have over my current plant growing area. 100w of high efficiency LED would probably be overkill for this enclosure though.

Spot lighting could be an option for a Phrag in a larger enclosure. It is possible to get narrow optics and reflectors to use on an led cob. Or I could put it up higher in the enclosure for now.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fredk said:


> I have to look more into lighting on such a tall enclosure. I'm not impressed with what I see in the way of hobby specific lights. They appear grossly over priced for what they are. Maybe they use quality components though. It's hard to tell.
> 
> I'm leaning towards Home Depot plant lights as the most cost effective, or I could go all in and use what the pot growers use: high quality/reliability at a price. That is what I have over my current plant growing area. 100w of high efficiency LED would probably be overkill for this enclosure though.
> 
> Spot lighting could be an option for a Phrag in a larger enclosure. It is possible to get narrow optics and reflectors to use on an led cob. Or I could put it up higher in the enclosure for now.


You need to be careful when it comes to spot lighting that you're not adding too much heat into the enclosure. I use a NiCrew led for my 36" high and get decent lighting at ground level. No matter what light you go with, you're going to need plants that thrive in low light for the bottom 1/3rd of your enclosure.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Chris S said:


> You might find, in Canada here anyway, the price of R.ventrimaculata may not be the investment you want to make to start out.


Yup. Still looking into that.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Eurydactylodes said:


> .. I would recommend doing research somewhere other than the website of a big vendor. There are a lot of helpful threads here on Dendroboard about pretty much any topic under the sun. ...


Yup. That's true of all hobbies. I've spent a lot of time here reading before I joined.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

fredk said:


> Yup. Still looking into that.


Vent's will commonly be around $200/ea, you can try Understory Enterprises. I think Mark has some now.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Chris S said:


> Vent's will commonly be around $200/ea, you can try Understory Enterprises. I think Mark has some now.


I did not know Understory was a Canadian company. Guess I should have read their about section. 

Hmm, had seen various Renitomeya frogs for between $75 and $200 so had hopes that as one of the more widespread varieties it would be towards the low end. In one of the many searches I did, I came across a seller from Northern Ontario offering them at considerably less than $200. Suspicious?


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

fredk said:


> I did not know Understory was a Canadian company. Guess I should have read their about section.
> 
> Hmm, had seen various Renitomeya frogs for between $75 and $200 so had hopes that as one of the more widespread varieties it would be towards the low end. In one of the many searches I did, I came across a seller from Northern Ontario offering them at considerably less than $200. Suspicious?


 Depends who it is I guess. I know most of the breeders in Canada. You can PM me for more information.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Chris S said:


> Depends who it is I guess. I know most of the breeders in Canada. You can PM me for more information.


Fishingguy confirmed in a side conversation that the breeder is legit and top quality, but the frog may be R. amazonica not R. ventrimaculata, which I thought were synonymous, and possibly extremely shy. Food for thought.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

fredk said:


> Fishingguy confirmed in a side conversation that the breeder is legit and top quality, but the frog may be R. amazonica not R. ventrimaculata, which I thought were synonymous, and possibly extremely shy. Food for thought.


If they are listed as Amazonica 'Iquitos', then they are not true vents. Only one person I know of breeding vents right now!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fredk said:


> but the frog may be R. amazonica not R. ventrimaculata, which I thought were synonymous,


Not exactly synonymous, but some locales used to be in the other species. A bunch of frogs used to be called _R. ventrimaculata_ (and before that, _Dendrobates ventrimaculatus_), but in 2011 some of them (many of the red ones, basically) were moved to _R. amazonica_, others (the yellowish ones, basically) to _R. variabilis_. There are spotty populations left that are still _R. ventrimaculata. _I guess; I'm still fuzzy on this, and anyone who can explain this better should correct me. I just learned (in fact checking this) that ventrimaculata are in the reticulata group. 

If the frogs that you're attracted to are being called vents in the former taxonomy, it may be that what you're looking for are actually (now) _R. amazonica _or (even better)_ R. variabilis._


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Not exactly synonymous, but some locales used to be in the other species. A bunch of frogs used to be called _R. ventrimaculata_ (and before that, _Dendrobates ventrimaculatus_), but in 2011 some of them (many of the red ones, basically) were moved to _R. amazonica_, others (the yellowish ones, basically) to _R. variabilis_. There are spotty populations left that are still _R. ventrimaculata. _I guess; I'm still fuzzy on this, and anyone who can explain this better should correct me. I just learned (in fact checking this) that ventrimaculata are in the reticulata group.
> 
> If the frogs that you're attracted to are being called vents in the former taxonomy, it may be that what you're looking for are actually (now) _R. amazonica _or (even better)_ R. variabilis._


That's the explanation I found after some searches. It also appears that the frog now called amazonica is most likely a very shy critter.

Additionally from the searches and reading I've done, peoples experienced with the various subspecies of Ranitomeya seem to vary wildly. What for one person is a very shy subspecies, is for another quite bold. Perhaps Ranitomeya are much more sensitive to their environment/surroundings? Well, except the imitator, which should only be kept in pairs.

Just does not seem like a particularly good choice for a first frog from that perspective. It would seem rather difficult to observe and learn about Darts, behavior and health with a frog that you can't see.

I think this species if off the list. Good news is I have plenty of time to consider other options since I don't even have an enclosure set up yet.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Just FYI, there are no subspecies -- they are all full species.

That shyness variation is the case for all (or most, anyway) dart species.



fredk said:


> Just does not seem like a particularly good choice for a first frog from that perspective. It would seem rather difficult to observe and learn about Darts, behavior and health with a frog that you can't see.


This is a fact that is famously challenging to convince novice keepers of.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

If you like ranitomeya and want some that are on the bolder side, r. Vanzolini or r. Variabilis 'Southern' are good choices. I can go in and clip plants, feed, take pictures of random ferns, and my variabilis will pretty much stay where they are. I have one male who just doesn't care. He will sit and watch me clip a plant 4" away from him.

Like @Socratic Monologue said, shyness is found on a spectrum, both in species and keepers. Things that typically cause a frog to be bold is environment. Providing cover and visual barriers are key. You'll see your frogs more if they have somewhere quick to hide or if they think you can't see them.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JasonE said:


> If you like ranitomeya and want some that are on the bolder side, r. Vanzolini or r. Variabilis 'Southern' are good choices. I can go in and clip plants, feed, take pictures of random ferns, and my variabilis will pretty much stay where they are. I have one male who just doesn't care. He will sit and watch me clip a plant 4" away from him.
> 
> Like @Socratic Monologue said, shyness is found on a spectrum, both in species and keepers. Things that typically cause a frog to be bold is environment. Providing cover and visual barriers are key. You'll see your frogs more if they have somewhere quick to hide or if they think you can't see them.


Like this, the supposedly shy Ranitomeya sirensis...


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

You guys are not helping this beginner cross the not-for-beginners frog off his list. 

Fishingguy, those sirensis are very striking. I do also like the look of the variabilis as well and I see that Understory breeds them. Hmm, If I'm lucky they are $200 and I can move on ... ?

Related, I realized last night that dendrobates.org has sound files for its species accounts. Leucs, loud  The variabilis call is quite pleasant


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

fredk said:


> You guys are not helping this beginner cross the not-for-beginners frog off his list.
> 
> Fishingguy, those sirensis are very striking. I do also like the look of the variabilis as well and I see that Understory breeds them. Hmm, If I'm lucky they are $200 and I can move on ... ?
> 
> Related, I realized last night that dendrobates.org has sound files for its species accounts. Leucs, loud  The variabilis call is quite pleasant


If you truly want a beginner frog that you will almost certainly have success with, get either Dendrobates tinctorius, Dendrobates Leucomelas, or Dendrobates Auratus. When doing so, keep a few things in mind-these are large frogs that need a large enclosure. Importantly, NEVER mix localities of dart frogs (of any type). Although dendrobatids are often sold as “Morphs”, this does not mean the same thing as it does in the reptile breeding world. In dendrobatid herpetoculture, (with the exception of a few animals that generally this forum does not promote), the term “Morph” refers to a genetically distinct locality. 
I do not want to speak for anybody else, but generally, with some exceptions, I subscribe to the philosophy that you should get the animal you are most passionate about. If you love Pumillio Bastimentos, you will probably give them a better life than an Azureus that you are not passionate about. I do not think everybody has to start with “beginner species”. With that said, I do think Tincs and Leucs are the best frogs for beginners. This is not just because they are hardy. They are arguably the most personable dendrobatids, and as large, beautiful frogs, they become pets more than anything else. For a lot of serious keepers (myself included), these animals are no longer “pets”. They are a passion, an obsession, a deep love, or a source of intellectual stimulation. This phenomenon is unavoidable as we seek to establish a reputation of professionalism. However, I think all of us started with that first pet that sparked our passion. Whether that was a crested gecko, a garter snake that you caught at summer camp as a kid, or your first dendrobatid. You will see all sorts of people calling their dendrobatids “Froggos”, or “Froggies”, or “Cuties” , or “Babies” on this site. I think as a community we tend to look down on those people, but we were all there once. Just absolutely enamored by these incredible animals, and unable to contain ourselves. That was a long-winded way of saying if you want a “Pet” frog, I recommend going with the classic beginner species. If you want something other than that, look into other options! Some Ranitomeya species could be great first frogs. 
My only pointer-Don’t buy a 900 dollar frog as your first one 
-Oscar


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JasonE said:


> Things that typically cause a frog to be bold is environment. Providing cover and visual barriers are key. You'll see your frogs more if they have somewhere quick to hide or if they think you can't see them.


Agree, and I'll add a fact that I've noticed a lot: the exact same group of frogs moved into a larger viv is noticably more bold. Larger vivs = seeing the frogs more. Likely this is in large part because there is more room for cover, visual barriers, etc, but size matters here.

Some new keepers think it'll be the other way around (jam a bunch of frogs in a little viv so you'll see a couple all the time), but I've never found that to be true.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Eurydactylodes said:


> If you truly want ...


What I want is an interesting and dynamic environment. Though I've bred a few different fish, mostly what I wanted to create was a more complete ecosystem. I did planted tanks long before it became popular. When everyone else was freaking out about the snails, I thought they were cool and was rather interested in what ecological niche the filled in my aquariums.

When I had salt water tanks, I was as fascinated with the arthropods, mini starfish, forams, snails and other critters that occupied my sand bottom as I was by the fish and corals.

If I wanted a cute frog, I'm sure I could buy one from Hello Kitty and dangle it from my car mirror.

Leucs are interesting, but hot damn their call is loud. This setup will be in my living room as I do not have a dedicated room to set this up in.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Agree, and I'll add a fact that I've noticed a lot: the exact same group of frogs moved into a larger viv is noticably more bold. Larger vivs = seeing the frogs more. Likely this is in large part because there is more room for cover, visual barriers, etc, but size matters here.
> 
> ...


Define "larger". I know that this is species specific, but I dislike vague terms. What is larger for D. leukomelas? What is larger for R. variabilis? Make the assumption that it will be appropriately landscaped for complete use of space.

As mentioned previously, what I have is glass that can be reassembled, with minor additions, into and 18 x 18 x 48 vivarium. Is that "larger" enough for either of these species?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

How big of a tank are you going to be using?

That will help people to suggest other species that would be great.

One of the things that people don't consider enough, in my opinion, is what the call will sound like. One of the draws for _Ameerega_ for me is their call. They have a pleasant bird-like call.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Having listened to a few frogs calling, how often does a well housed, happy male call? Could this become an all day, every day thing? That would certainly have an impact on what species I consider.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> How big of a tank are you going to be using?
> 
> That will help people to suggest other species that would be great.
> 
> One of the things that people don't consider enough, in my opinion, is what the call will sound like. One of the draws for _Ameerega_ for me is their call. They have a pleasant bird-like call.


We are thinking the same things, just slightly out of sync.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fredk said:


> Having listened to a few frogs calling, how often does a well housed, happy male call? Could this become an all day, every day thing? That would certainly have an impact on what species I consider.


Oh for sure. Most males will call all day, several days of the week. So if you want something unnoticeable then you should be thinking ranitomeya. And I probably wouldn't suggest anything else for an 18x18x48 anyway.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fredk said:


> Define "larger"


Well, for leucs or most thumbnails, the minimum viv is reasonably considered to be 18 x 18 x 24 for 1.1 leucs or 2-4 thumbs (depending on species). The largest commonly practical viv is, just in my opinion, maybe 4 feet long by 3 high by two deep (@kimcmich has a larger one for thumbs, and here's one for leucs that's not quite that large but is "large"). Going up the scale in that range will lead to more bold and "naturally behaving" frogs. I don't know what happens with larger dimensions.



fredk said:


> What I want is an interesting and dynamic environment.


A bit of a tough one for frogs (but don't worry, I'll give a recommendation). There's a lot of mix and match that doesn't work so well for frog care (frog keepers don't tend to tolerate the heavy livestock losses from aggression, predation and pathogens that fish and coral keepers do), though there is a bit of similarity with the vivarium microfauna.

Most "beginner" frogs are going to be frogs + fruit flies and not too much else. What you might like is the challenge of keeping a good stock of microfauna for small froglets, and the "ecosystem" aspect of frogs needing certain well-chosen plants in well-chosen places, and an intellectually interesting frog species. What you might like, that is, is a facultative eggfeeder -- _Ranitomeya vanzolinii, sirensis, flavovitatta _or_ imitator._

The first three are group tolerant, which may appeal to you. Imitator, though, is by far the coolest. They are Mullerian (not Batesian -- look this up if you're not familiar with the difference) mimics of a few other _Ranitomeya_ species, and feed their tadpoles trophic eggs. Both the adults and the young benefit from a good microfauna population. And each of these species are easy enough to keep by a dedicated novice who likes to research.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

fredk said:


> Having listened to a few frogs calling, how often does a well housed, happy male call? Could this become an all day, every day thing? That would certainly have an impact on what species I consider.


Pretty much all day, most days. Depending what frogs you get. 
If you have multiple males of a group tolerant Ranitomeya species you will have calling almost from morning till night. My sirensis group (at least 2 males out of 8 frogs in the group) call from 9am to 10pm or so. Not constant but every 15 minutes or thereabouts.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Pretty much all day, most days. Depending what frogs you get.
> If you have multiple males of a group tolerant Ranitomeya species you will have calling almost from morning till night. My sirensis group (at least 2 males out of 8 frogs in the group) call from 9am to 10pm or so. Not constant but every 15 minutes or thereabouts.


I think that eliminates leucomelas for me.


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

fredk said:


> I think that eliminates leucomelas for me.


If you want a quiet frog, I would definitely go with tinctorius. There are a few localities that have similar yellow and black markings. Think yellow backs. My favorite tinctorius are green sipalwini. They have some striking light markings. Tinctorius have a low buzzing call that you will have to strain to hear. You can also go with some auratus localities. However, seems to me that what you want is a Ranitomeya species. Go for it! They are great frogs. 
-Oscar


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Eurydactylodes said:


> If you want a quiet frog, I would definitely go with tinctorius. There are a few localities that have similar yellow and black markings. Think yellow backs. My favorite tinctorius are green sipalwini. They have some striking light markings. Tinctorius have a low buzzing call that you will have to strain to hear. You can also go with some auratus localities. However, seems to me that what you want is a Ranitomeya species. Go for it! They are great frogs.
> -Oscar


Thanks for the reply. Yeah, it seem I keep gravitating back to Ranitomeya. I'm not quite sure why, but they seem to have caught my fancy (odd phrase, that is).


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