# Substrate staying wet (not sure how/why)



## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Hello, 
I have a bit of an odd situation and I can't quite figure it out. Perhaps someone has experienced this before.
I made up a 40 breeder for my tincs (not in there yet, still in grow-out). I used a mini canister filter and made a small water feature in the front corner. I siliconed a 2" high arcrylic wall from front to back, making approx a 10x18" section. I put egg crate in the back half of the water section, 2" high, filled the other larger side of the tank with hydroton, 2" high, then covered the whole thing with landscape fabric. I then made a natural stone retaining wall and poured in the substrate. Which consisted of mostly jungle mix (fir and sphagnum peat), a little coco fiber, some cypress mulch and covered with a layer of sphagnum moss. It starts out at about an inch deep around the water feature and grades up to about 4-5" on the other side of the tank. 
The canister filter sucks the water up from under the egg crate and pumps to the top of the side glass, where is trickles down the side of the glass, back into the water feature. Not typical, but it's actually kinda neat. No noise, no splash, saves space and looks kinda cool. Also, the water line is kept almost a half inch below the substrate level. So, it's not in contact with any substrate or landscape fabric. 
Yet, even with the top off, not adding any water to the substrate since planting over a month ago, removing some off the sphagnum moss, having a computer fan running for 15 min, every 2 hrs for the last 2 weeks and turning the waterfall off,.......the top half of the tank is dried out, but the substrate is still wet, like I just watered the crap out of it yesterday.
There is no water sitting on the bottom of the tank, with the hydroton. Which leads me to believe that the acrylic barrier is holding up and water is not leaking from the water feature and wicking up into the soil that way. Is it possible that the soil and sphagnum is simply sucking moisture out of the atmosphere, from the water feature? I'm skeptical about that because the rest of the upper half of the tank is bone dry. I'm completely baffled by this. Here's a few pics to give an idea of what it looks like.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)




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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)




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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I'm sure it's possible that there could be a pin hole leak somewhere in the silicone. Water could very well be leaking through somewhere, a drop at a time and wicking up through the hydroton and fabric, into the soil.
But would that really be enough to saturate that much soil? All of it is wet, including the sphagnum moss.
If it is leaking and it was more than a drip, I'm sure the water feature would have been draining out quite rapidly. Which it wasn't.
Still baffled.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I can't tell you where but if your substrate is saturated it is more then likely coming into contact and wicking the water.

A couple things I noticed from your pics:

In the very first pic it doesn't look like your waterline is below your false bottom. They look perfectly inline. It may just be the pic but thats what it looks like.

In the last pic there is some condensation in the front where the water ends and the false bottom begins. This could be another point of contact as the condensation might be caused by the constant moisture transfer to the substrate.

Hope that helps but its really hard to tell from pictures. Generally I'd say you'd want your false bottom to rise at least a 1/2 inch to an inch above the water line to be sure that it clears safely...


Edit: I looked at the first pic again and since the water line and the false bottom look to be really close to each other in height the small surge in water level cause by the water fall down the glass may be the culprit. That would also explain the soaking you're experiencing as opposed to a small leak.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Yeah, the first pic is a blurry phone pic. It was the only one I had. I can take a better pic later.
But yeah, the water line was kept at the bottom of the egg crate at most. I'd say the height of the water was 1.5". The barrier is 2" and the hydroton is 2"deep. The top of the egg crate is level with the wall and hydroton. The fabric lays over the egg crate and hydroton. 
I figure it must be wicking somewhere in there,.....maybe through the rocks? I just can't figure out where. And would that make the entire substrate and moss wet? I feel like I'll have to tear it apart and figure it out.
Oh yeah, that pic with the condensation is from about a month ago. I've had the water fall off for about 2 weeks, haven't added any water and have been airing the tank out. The soil is still pretty damp.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I looked at your pics again and remembered that you have a (piece of glass?) separating your water section from your land section.

In your water section it looks like you do have some substrate and moss and just organic material in general. Before tearing everything apart you can start by just making sure that nothing organic on the water side is touching any substrate on the land side and see if that stops it.

It could be wicking from that moss straight across to the substrate. If that does stop the problem you could then just add more rocks and permanently remove all the organic material from the water area. All that stuff, that is not alive, will begin to breakdown anyway.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I'll have to pick at it a bit later. It's odd, there's a chunk of moss that was actually lower and touching the water. That piece dried out when I shut off the water. But the moss up on top of the substrate, behind the rocks, stayed wet for quite a while.
There's gotta be something goofy going on under there. Maybe some fabric touching the water that I missed. 
Thanks for the replies.


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## Wy Renegade (Feb 15, 2012)

I've noticed in some of my builds that water will also wick upward through rock or gravel in the right situation. Some even some inorganic contact could be the culprit.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Here's a better pic. I filled it up to where I usually have it.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Also, I pulled everything back and found a small section of the fabric that was hanging down over the egg crate and touching the water. It was only a 3" section and only just touching the water. I know that's enough to wick up water and I suppose it could be the culprit, but it's still hard to believe it was wicking up enough to saturate the entire tank. I guess it's possible. I'm kinda hoping that's what it was and I fixed it. I just trimmed it off. You can see the spot under the flat black rock, where the egg crate is exposed.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Acrylic warps and it doesn't take no time at all for it to do so. I used acrylic as a divider and it always leaked and then I replaced it with glass...no more leaks


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

That could very well be the case. That's why I siliconed in a few supports, hoping to make it a bit more rigid. 
The first thing I suspected was a leak in the arcrylic barrier, even though I was sure I did a good job sealing it. But I wasn't seeing any water on the bottom of the drainage layer. I assumed that if it was leaking, it would eventually fill up on the drainage side, to a point where I could see it and maybe even start coming out of the drainage tube. But, It may very well still be leaking. I'm hoping not.
I trimmed back the fabric, filled the water back up and fired up the pump. Just have to let it run and see if it changes and go from there.
I'm going to be building a bigger tank over the summer. Hopefully I can manage this one without a complete redo, until the bigger one is done. Maybe replace the plants with ones that suck up more water. Or, scrap the water feature altogether.


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Silicone doesn't work on acrylic. 
Whenever you use silicon to connect acrylic to glass, 90% chances are that it would leak. 
It's better to use glass pieces to do this instead


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

You're probably right.
Next tank will have a completely different design.
I'll tear this one down and do it right when the next one is complete.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Blueper said:


> The first thing I suspected was a leak in the arcrylic barrier, even though I was sure I did a good job sealing it. But I wasn't seeing any water on the bottom of the drainage layer. I assumed that if it was leaking, it would eventually fill up on the drainage side, to a point where I could see it and maybe even start coming out of the drainage tube. But, It may very well still be leaking. I'm hoping not.
> I trimmed back the fabric, filled the water back up and fired up the pump. Just have to let it run and see if it changes and go from there.





sumer said:


> Silicone doesn't work on acrylic.
> Whenever you use silicon to connect acrylic to glass, 90% chances are that it would leak.
> It's better to use glass pieces to do this instead


Well, it's been a while now. If the siliconed arcrylic wall wasn't leaking before, it is now 
So, I'm gonna have to agree with your statement.
The waterfall/pump is off for now. The water level is down to about 3/4" and it's all the way across the entire bottom of the tank. Luckily, the drainage tube is up high enough that a little water can still sit in the bottom of the tank and the frogs can access it. I just can't have the water high enough to run the pump and have the water filtered constantly. I'll just have to cycle it once in awhile to clean it. Or, empty it and stick a water dish in there. 
Live and learn.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Capillary action is no joke. Water will "climb" pea gravel and get into the substrate, where it will wick across the entire viv. It will especially wick up that moss you have mixed in with the rocks. Your substrate sounds a little heavy too... Fir, coco, peat, sphagnum, cypress will get soggy fast.

If you really want to keep the water feature, maybe replace the substrate. Even just leaf litter over a shallow layer of turface. You could make pockets of ABG mix for plants. This kind of set up would give you more leeway with so much moisture.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

The substrate seems to have dried out a bit since I cut back the landscape fabric that was dipping into the water. It's still damp, but nothing like before. Also, with the waterfall off and water table low, it has also cut down on dampness and humidity. I honestly don't want to tear the tank apart, now that the plants are established and froglets are getting acclimated and comfortable. They are just now, in the last few days, just starting to not be so skittish when I feed. So, I'll just leave it as is until I build a new, bigger enclosure. They will have outgrown the 40 breeder by next summer anyway. I'll apply better methods and avoid these mistakes on the next tank.
-better separation from any body of water and the substrate
-poly mesh instead of landscape fabric for substrate drainage.
-no arcrylic/silicone/glass combos.
-better soil mix.


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