# Can dart frogs swim?



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

There has been a lot of chatter and questions about this topic topic lately, on this forum as well as another...

Yes, Virginia.....dart frogs CAN indeed swim, but here are some problems and reasons why we do not recommend a deep water feature:

*1.* *NEWBIES*. A HUGE proportion of new hobbyists have some universal temptations. Mixed species is probably the biggest but not far behind is;

"I want to build a waterwall or stream or big pond in my first dart frog tank" "I would like a pond with fish in it too"

New hobbyists also assume that since the dart frog is...well...."Frog shaped" it must like to be in the water and therefore spend a lot of time swimming. *INCORRECT*. The majority of dart frogs and almost every single species available to hobbyists do not spend time in a water feature, soak constantly, or even _need_ a waterfall or other water feature. They do just fine with high humidity and hand spraying.

The other reason to dissuade new hobbyists of the "swimming frog" issue is to not have them spend the extra time, effort and money in a pump and moving water feature when it is just not necessary for them. Keep it simple.

*2.* *Disease and Pathogens.* A water feature, especially in a smaller viv, like most that newer people construct can accumulate waste, disease and be very hard to maintain and clean. Again...at first....keep it simple. Feeder insects will die in the water as well, both depriving the frog of aquiring the insect and also fouling the water.

*3.* *Poor construction*. And this falls under the "Newbie" catagory as well, I guess. If you are new to frog keeping and vivarium construction, then chances are, the layout of the vivarium will be less than ideal. The rear wall and sides will probably not be hardscaped correctly and there will be no terracing - meaning that the surface area and that area which the frogs can utlilize as living space will not be optimal. When that is the case, the last thing that should happen is for a water feature to cut into the living space as well, further limited the frogs usable space.

*4. Species Aggression*. This IS the biggie. Small tincs can show aggression as young as froglet size. A common aggressive action is for one frog to obtain dominance over another frog (usually a slightly smaller sized frog) and stand on it's back or head. The submissive frog will often cower or flatten and if this is done in or near water, the result can be fatal. The other stressor is the aggressive frog persuing the submisive frog all around the (small) vivarium. They will continually come in contact with the water feature and if it is large enough, or poorly constructed, the weaker frog could become tired and trapped in the water - drowning. Is it common? I am positive that it happened to one of my frogs in a communal morphing container - I saw it with my own eyes.

Some thoughts...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> *2.* *Disease and Pathogens.* A water feature, especially in a smaller viv, like most that newer people construct can accumulate waste, disease and be very hard to maintain and clean. Again...at first....keep it simple. Feeder insects will die in the water as well, both depriving the frog of aquiring the insect and also fouling the water.


Hi Phil,

I'm not sure that the risk of disease is any different than just the substrate in the enclosure... the same pathogens are going to be found in it in either case. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

True.....I was going with more of the decaying feeder insects and the fact that frog feces was going to be inevitably going to be present in the water feature and harder to remove....


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

Great information and points addressed here. While they can in fact swim and remain submerged for periods of time, the points you addressed are why they shouldn't do so in vivariums.


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

on the subject of disease and pathogens, what about ick/ich? I dont know if this has been covered before but is one of the biggest hold backs as far as fish in a frog tank. What if the fish have ich or something else can this transfer to my frogs? Im sure this is a dumb question but i dont know so im asking


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

Calvin - Ick is a parasite, and while I do not know for fact, I see no reason why a frog would be a suitable host for such a parasite. Ick is awater born parasite, so it may not 'thrive' on a frog, but may stay healthy enough to hinder the frog...


I hate hearing/seeing people be told not to do something because it comes with challenges... and for this reason I thank you for sharing the reasons why a water feature is challenging, and not just telling people not to do it.

Thanks Phil!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are a couple of studies documenting Ick infecting tadpoles (see Agris Repository Search Results for one example.) 

Ed


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## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

I really worry about chytrid. If I recall correctly, the key theory is this disease is spreading to our native amphibian species by the african clawed toads sold by pet stores. Most LFS have all their tanks running on one filtration system, so their fish and plants may be exposed to it. Hopefully they've got adequate UV sterilization, but otherwise, you bring home any fish or plants and you may be bringing home chytrid.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Some recent work blames American Bull Frogs instead of clawed frogs.
PLoS Pathogens: The Deadly Chytrid Fungus: A Story of an Emerging Pathogen
-Mark


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Funny you should mention swimming, just today when I was trimming some of the plants in my leuc tank I witnessed for the first time one of my leucs jump into the water feature deliberately as a flight response to me and he swam straight to the bottom of the water and stayed down there just like leopard frogs do. I pulled him out because I was not sure if it was his intention and after I placed him on the land he immediately jumped back into the water feature and swam to the same spot. So I waited and watched him for a few minutes to see if he would be ok and to make sure he would be able to get out safely. After a few minutes he swam back to the top and walked out no problem. 

Needless to say this surprised me, I never witnessed this behavior before in darts. Anyone else?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I've seen in it in ventrimaculatus. 

Ed


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## DKOOISTRA (May 28, 2009)

I have about a 2' stream in my arautus tank and they have jumped in for the the same reason and swam up stream to get away.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

tachikoma said:


> Funny you should mention swimming, just today when I was trimming some of the plants in my leuc tank I witnessed for the first time one of my leucs jump into the water feature deliberately as a flight response to me and he swam straight to the bottom of the water and stayed down there just like leopard frogs do. I pulled him out because I was not sure if it was his intention and after I placed him on the land he immediately jumped back into the water feature and swam to the same spot. So I waited and watched him for a few minutes to see if he would be ok and to make sure he would be able to get out safely. After a few minutes he swam back to the top and walked out no problem.
> 
> Needless to say this surprised me, I never witnessed this behavior before in darts. Anyone else?


yup i have , vents , tricolors and new river tincs as well as a few types of auratus. they have and continue to use water quite often, even my leucs are in or near the water daily.is a water feature needed? probally not but i can can say for sure feeling as stiff and sore as i do right now , i wish i had a hot tub water feature of my own.
craig


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## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

markbudde said:


> Some recent work blames American Bull Frogs instead of clawed frogs.
> PLoS Pathogens: The Deadly Chytrid Fungus: A Story of an Emerging Pathogen
> -Mark


That is an fascinating update you cited. However, regardless of whether the pet store clawed frogs are responsible for the world wide epidemic, they still are well documented carriers. "Some amphibian species that are traded globally may serve as disease reservoirs because they can carry Bd infections without morbidity."

The other topic to which this thread has turned is fascinating as well. It goes against some of the conventional wisdom. 
It is still worth emphasizing that if PDFs don't have easy exits from the water, they can drown. But it is cool to hear they choose to swim when frightened.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

And in an attempt to unhijack this thread....

My imitators show the dive response as well and it never really worried me. They seem to be able to get out of the water just fine. They will also dive into the bottom of broms filled with plenty of water when startled.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Almost all my vivs have a small pond or even a dish with 1 -3 inches of water. I agree darts don't need it but... I really enjoy watching the process of the male transporting tads, and watching them morph out in the tank. In fact the only tank I do not have water in, is my pumilio tank. I also feel more comfortable that if I miss a new pair breeding, there is a good chance they will take care of things on their own. 

The diving when startled, also makes sense to me. I have learned when tryiing to catch newly morphed froglets that they almost always try to get past me, straight to back to the water. It seem natural as adults they would follow those same instincts.

Sally


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

I know that in some species the froglets drown easy if they don't have easy access to land (or so people say). I wonder if those species are more prone to drowning as adults?


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Here's a "dart noob" opinion so dont consider it too much haha!
I guess it depends on some other factor too... if the water feature doesn't have more than 1-2inches of water, and/or it is so well constructed that any (even very tired) frog can easyly get out, then I don't see what the problem is..
a waterfeature or just a pond will help with humidity, plus it is there... if the frog ever want to take a dip for some weird reason

I have no experience with darts, but have some notable with frogs and treefrogs, and some of my frogs will take a dip every few monthes, but I know it is very important for them as they store a lot of water this way, then they go back to burrowing for several weeks. all my frogs have secure water dish even if they never used it, hell even my RETF and golden gecko has their own dish!


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## timn328 (Feb 6, 2010)

i have been keeping darts for 5 years now... my tincs go in the water... and a prev mentioned they sometimes get startled and my one swims to the bottom for "safety".... i've not had a problem with me water feature... it is big and i do watch out carefully but they seem to be aware of the water and its dangers...


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## Animaladdictionyt (8 mo ago)

Philsuma said:


> True.....I was going with more of the decaying feeder insects and the fact that frog feces was going to be inevitably going to be present in the water feature and harder to remove....


If you use filtration and have a type of fish in the water feature that enjoy eating flies such as zebra danios, your frog tank is large enough to have the correct amount of floor space for the frogs aside from the water feature, and you have a plant such as pothos helping to filter out the ammonia, it should work. As long as you're watching for aggression and you have easy exits such as the roots of pothos in case the frog falls in. It can also help to keep the humidity up. If you're an expert in fish keeping it can work. If you have no experience with aquariums and you want to take on a water feature it's best to stear clear.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The OP is an experienced frogger, and posted this a dozen years ago (and was experienced when he posted this ... ). You've been here two weeks?

s


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