# Soil Mix, fertilizers?



## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

I just wanna make sure my soil will be alright and I would like your opinions over that matter!
I am planning on using a mix of 1/4 of each

Schultz Orchid Mix
(contain arcilite?)

Schultz Peat Moss
(pure peat moss)

Schultz Tropical Mix,
(contain perlite?)

and then I will add as much coco fiber as needed to make a well aerated soil.

I will be using this soil in a 80 gal viv intented for p.terribilis planted with several different plants such as broms, orchid, staghorn fern, zebra plant, venus flytrap, pitcher plant, maybe creeping fig and a few other random tropical plants.

Are fertilizers important? If yes, what type should I get? Any special indications?

Does my overall "plants plan" makes sense? Any advices?
Thanks a lot in advance!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

No perlite - styrofoam beads can kill frogs that ingest them.

No fertilizer - it's chemicals and just not needed.

Almost all Carnivorous plants will not do well and die in a frog vivarium.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

I use this mix for more than just my dart frogs and I love it. 


30% peat moss
30% cocofiberfir 
20% fir bark 
10% ground up spag. moss
10% crushed pin oak leaves

this is a rough guess as I just go by look and consistancy but I love it.
the pin oak smells great imo, and gives springs more organic matter for food.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

I will definately toss all that chemicals then...
About the carnivorous plants, what if I put them in single baskets with their own soils, is that a good solution?
should I add a little bit of coco husk altho its a bit expensive?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

FLY TRAPS CAN EAT FROGS!!!!! although with adult terribilis this isnt a concern and they need a dormancy period to thrive longterm
staghorn ferns are EPIPHYTES and shouldnt be planted, and will most likely get FAR TOO BIG for your viv.
Temperate pitcher plants also need a dormancy period to thrive longterm, and many get quite tall. Sarracenia purpurea is the one Id reccomend. These need LOW fert soils, and will not thrive in the same soil as plants that need a higher nutrient load. A 50/50 peat/sand mix is great for these, but BAD for other plants.
You could grow nepenthes if you wanted to , but these also need a LOW fert environment, as well as good drainage. Just know most will get very large and take over your viv

Basically, if you want a bog tank, make a bog tank. If you want a tropical viv, leaves the temperate carnis out of it.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

What if I put my "soils specific" plant in little basket on my background, and I still give them a "dormancy" period during the winter? Would that be doable?


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Dude:

1) Please listen to Eric about the substrate mix. Where did you get your recipe? ANY herp book will tell you, no perlite and no extra fertilizer!

All peat based mixes will break down faster in a terrarium. Coir based mixes last much longer. Eric's looks like a GREAT recipe.

2) Once your tank is set up, Dynagro used at half strength seems to be safe fertilizer.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

Groundhog said:


> Dude:
> 
> Where did you get your recipe?
> 
> ...


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Where do I find these stuffs then?
30% cocofiberfir
20% fir bark 
10% crushed pin oak leaves
I am from Quebec, it is winter here and it is VERY hard to find anything potent ;X

You are telling me that my mix would rot or degrade in a short time?
What is the difference between ground up spag. moss and peat moss?
Please confirm that Arcillite is a fert and that it is bad (i am a complete "soil" noob as you can see!)

33% coco husk
33% coco fiber
33% peat moss (100% canadian sphag. moss)
1% fwogiz's love 
isn't this good for the "main ground"... then I can make some more specific soil for my more capricious plants in baskets on my background?


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

My suggestion to you is to post what you need in the wanted forum and I expect that someone here can help you with all you need for a nominal charge!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

I am one with Rex Lee Searcy on peat-based soil mixes: In a closed, warm tank, it breaks down, that is degrades, much faster than coir. A coir-based substrate ("Coco bedding" or "Dendro bedding") will last much longer, over a drainage layer OR a false bottom (separated by plastic mesh). While gravel works as a drainage layer, LECA is much lighter. Black Jungle, for example, recommends 2/3 Coir (their Dendro bedding) with 1/3 tree fern fiber to amend it.

Mixes with a little peat are okay. One highly recommended mix is the Atlanta Botanical Garden (ABG) recipe from Ron Gagliardo:

2 parts fine fir bark
2 parts fine tree fern fiber
2 parts milled sphagnum moss
1 part fine charcoal
1 part peat moss

Personally, I don't see the need for charcoal, but it won't hurt. Again, it is true that mixes with a little peat are fine. _What I do_ is to use the Black Jungle recipe, with some ABG mix around the individual plants. 

Hope this helps.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks a lot everyone! Now I will just try and find some "fir bark" as I don't even know the name of this thing in french (Quebec sucks..) I know this anglo guy that works at Home Depot in garden area, I will ask him I guess.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

my local pet places carry smaller bags of fir bark. alittle expensive but its gona go a long ways so not a big deal


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

yeah exo terra "forest bark" IS fir bark right? it is a bit expensive but I guess I will buy a bag just to make a few viv as I can't wait for spring time!
I will use that ABG mix if you are telling me it is suitable for most of my plants, and my frogs!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Let me reiterate, the tank substrate should be COIR based (there are several brand names, Coco bedding, Forest bedding, etc.) Coir based mixes last the longest (coir even lasts longer than firbark)!

You can use the ABG mix around the individual plants.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

You completely lost me there....
I was planning on planting a few of the plants straight into the tank substrate... is that ok? I was going to put the other plants in baskets with their own substrate.
Now you are telling me the tank susbtrate should be COIR based, some other are telling me to use ABG which has no COIR...
Here's what I managed to find at this time of the year in Quebec:
Coco Fiber (eco earth, coco bedding, etc right?)
Coco Husks (same as coco fiber, bigger chunks)
Peat Moss (100% Canadian Sphagnum Moss)
Zilla Jungle Mix (Fir and Sphagnum Peat Moss)
I CAN'T find any tree fern fiber, and I will have to take a look at walmart for charcoal but Hort shops don't hold it in winter...
What is the difference between milled sphagnum moss and peat moss?

Now I have no problem with mixing soils and making baskets, all I want is the best for my frogs, but I do want the plants to be able to live in there too.
I am still unsure about all this soils thing


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

LET ME TRY TO EXPLAIN:

1) Peat vs. Sphagnum:

Sphagnum is a variety of moss that grows in bogs. They are sometimes referred to as "sphagnum peat bogs." Milled sphagnum is just that, finely chopped sphagnum (its in original state, it is called long fiber sphagnum). Peat moss is what happens to sphagnum after it dies and breaks down and crumples up. It holds water, is acidic, but does not drain well enough for terraria... 

2) In the old days, people used potting soil in terraria.

POTTING SOIL = Peat based

It would work--for a while. But terraria do NOT have drainage holes, and it would eventually deteriorate.

Fir bark (= orchid bark) lasts longer than peat, and coir lasts longer than both.

However, coir is fairly inert, it does not have much nutritional value. As such, it needs to be "amended" to make it more useful to plant material. Amendments can include: fir bark, tree fern, long fiber sphagnum moss, crushed leaves; 

WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY IS: Over the long term, coir-based substrate will last even longer than the ABG mix. The ABG mix is a good, nutritious mix though, and will work well your in baskets--keep it bulky and airy, not too dense!. 

Coir based--lasts the longest
ABG--Most balanced and nutritious

Use a Coir-based mix (with some fir bark and chopped up oak leaves) as the bulk of your substrate, put ABG mix around the individual plants.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

now I gotcha
is New Zealand Sphagnum Moss from ZooMed "milled sphagnum"?
also do you have any suggestions on how to get cheap bulk of these soils? I was thinking of Home Depot but I might have to wait in April or May... is there anywhere else? I know petshops hold a bit of those but usually at VERY expensive price (24L Fir bark, 33$ and 40$).
thanks


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

It thought it was UNmilled (or long fiber) sphagnum.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

basically its dryed, sphagnum moss right?
I often see those warped on a small cardboard piece too.. or sealed in bags too
thanks for the help groundhog!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Select-A-Blend Orchid Mix


Here you go. Lots of pics of what each component looks like, and if you want, they will pre mix and send to you.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

Groundhog said:


> LET ME TRY TO EXPLAIN:
> 
> 1) Peat vs. Sphagnum:
> 
> ...



great overview- I guess I was just to lazy.( sory fwogiz) yes areas around plants should be composed of different soil for the plants well being


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

frogparty said:


> Select-A-Blend Orchid Mix
> 
> 
> Here you go. Lots of pics of what each component looks like, and if you want, they will pre mix and send to you.


strongly doubt they ship in Canada


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Josh sells the ABG stuff already mixed up, and he ships non-living stuff to Canada:

Josh's Frogs - abg mix (8 quart) - terrarium substrate


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

9$ +20$ shipping... no thanks :X
I will definately have to wait in April and May.. I can't even find charcoal... went to walmart and a few hort shops... I will make my own next summer >_>


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Lemme just squash something right now...

Perlite is NOT styrofoam. STYROFOAM is styrofoam. Perlite is an inert, sterile material made from volcanic rock. It does WONDERS for soil mixes by keeping them airy while assisting in retaining some moisture.

Yes, if a frog tries to ingest perlite, it probably won't go well if the frog tries to swallow it. This is true of ANYTHING thats small enough to fit in but not swallow. The true danger here lies with those larger types of frogs that go face first for food, i.e. trivattatus, terribilis and the like.

I use a perlite type soil mixture in all my vivs and have NEVER had a frog choke on anything. I also don't leave the soil overly exposed as most my vivs have leaf litter or numerous plants covering the floor.

I seriously doubt using perlite in a soil mix in a viv for thumbs is gonna cause a problem. If you're gonna keep the larger types, use larger perlite! That way, there's no chance of the frog ingesting it.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Yeah I wouldn't and won't care using perlite for my reeds, or other small frogs... I will try to cover the ground with leaves and moss too but I wouldn't take a chance with terribilis or bigger frogs that would "go face first", not only they're expensive, no one want to loose an animal to such an easy thing to prevent!


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