# I GIVE UP!!!



## Lee Steele (Mar 21, 2007)

Alright all... UGH!

This is my second time trying ff cultures. Ive tried both the heidi and the wingless. The cultures I start from, obtained from Ed's, live and live and produce and produce. I follow directions for starting cultures to the letter... and the same results ALWAYS.

After a week or so... when the flies have started laying and larvae are appearing things go bad. The excelsior I use turns black, the media turns black. The pupae are everywhere and seem to just rot in their places. I try to tap out flies and I get huge clumps of stuff... not many flies and a very strong ammonia scent.

H E L P!

Its simply too expensive to buy cultures to feed from and not raise my own... Im at my wits end and have no idea what I am doing wrong or what I need to do.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

THANKS TO ALL
Lee


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

I had problems with mold too, even when using media that had a mold inhibitor in it. I started adding a tablespoon or so of vinegar and that helped that a lot.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Where are you keeping your cultures? What temps? Is it possible that the mold is coming from an external source, say like a musty laundry room or something similar?


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

What is your recipe? and are you using a mold inhibitor at all?


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

I've had great luck with coffee filters in the media.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

They may not be wet enough or they may be getting too wet. Your also starting w/ 2 of the hardest strains to produce. Adding the right amount of flies to churn the media and having the right moisture in the media FOR YOUR CONDITIONS, is essential(if it`s real dry and you have adequate airflow you`ll need more water than the recipe. If you have no fan on and if you live in a sswamp like me it may be too wet and humid in the culture, you`ll need to have a fan blowing on them, esp w/ the plug tops and not insect tops). Wingless ff`s aren`t that prolific and you have to add more flies than the curly or flightless to get enoug larvae to churn the top of the media. If it dries out on top before the larvae get it churning, mold results. If it doesn`t have enough larvae present w/in the first couple days, mold. Hydei take forever to produce enough larvae IF you start w/ freshly hatched flies. What I would do was put enough flies for 4 cultures in one culture for 3-4 days and then empty out 90% of the hydei into 4 freshly made cultures. This way the # of flies in the first culture produces 1000's of eggs when they mature toward day 3-4. When you make the new cultures all of your flies are laying eggs immediately. probably not practical for 1 or 2 pair of frogs as you wouldn`t need that many flies.


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## Lee Steele (Mar 21, 2007)

I keep the cultures in our home office. Its quite comfortable in there. I use the media from Ed's Fly Meat... and its awsome stuff. The cultures that I buy from Ed's never have any problems... but mine always do. 

I am mixing the media according to directions. It does not appear to be neither too wet or too dry.. it looks, feels and smells just perfect.

UGH... lol lol lol 

The largae and pupae that are developing are amazing me. They are literally crawling up the sides of the cups and clump up and rot. UGH!!!

Anyway... thats all I know... any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Lee


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ditch the excelsior for a bit and see if the mold spores arent just on that stuff...

Wash all your cups/lids again just to be sure everything starts out as spore free as you can make it [cant rid everthing as the spores are everywhere but... cant hurt to try]

Use coffee filters or parchment paper...or nothing [NAIB doesnt use anything other than media and air  ]

Air movement...put a small fan nearby.

If all else fails try a cooked flax seed media recipe and add the mold inhibitor [ this is what I use, from Scott]

Also try mixing a teaspoon of vinegar into your cups when you make the media up.

Best,

S


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

What containers are you using? The Ed's containers? The toss away kind? Glass mason jars? Are the larvae staying in the media, or crawling up around the sides? Pupae on the sides is one thing, but if the majority of the larvae are on the sides rather than at the top of the media, then the media is becoming too wet (typical in humid areas, I have this issue in summer) and sometimes switching containers to something that has more circulation is better. 

Try adding more flies to the culture when you start... the larvae churning up the media reduces the fungus/mold blooms as well... this is why I add melanogaster to my hydei cultures. I use a LOT of wingless and GD flies to start a culture, more than I typically use with the curly and glider strains.

I don't recomend adding vinegar to the media... it already has mold inhibitor in it. Call Ed's and talk to Erin about it, she should have some good recomendations. Find some people who are locale to you, and talk to them about how they culture flies... you've got two states listed, so I can't give you any recomendations, but I know people who've lived up "north" move to florida, and their FFs cultures, which they'd done for years, go to crap and they can't seem to ever get them right.

FFs may need more than "comfortable" temps... my thermostat is set at 72, and my flies are sitting directly above a flourescent shop light with two bulbs. This is where I get optimum production... not in the 80s, but a bit warmer than room temps.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Well it may have mold inhibitor... but it aint working :wink: 

Corey,

Folks have used vinegar for years as an alternative to chemical mold inhibitors so why not try it on a few cx's? Have you had a bad experience or some other reason not to 'double up' on the mold inhib options given his current issue with mold?

Personally I find the cooked media recipes, lots of ffs, and dab of sour dough starter [or a pinch of yeast] works better for me, but the success of any recipe is dependant upon a lot of factors...so what works for one...doesnt always work for all.

For me mold hasnt even been a big issue with the above recipe, mites on the other hand...UGG...and that seems more dependent upon old cx's lying around and the use of excelsior than anything else... no excelsior, no mites...slight less production though :? 

Best,

S


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I second the backing off the excelsior idea as if you live in a humid area it could contribute to the problems.

Another thought is you could also have a mold problem in your home. I seem to remember someone a couple years ago who found a very serious mold issues in there home after ff culturing issues like this. 

Call Eds as well they are always helpful, and may have some ideas we have not brought up here.


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## lizardstowe (Sep 6, 2005)

*media*

I've been tweeking the same media for well over a year, I use all whole food items in my media. One thing I haven't changed since I started is the use of vinager! Aaron is right, too wet or too dry can make all the diff in how well it produces and weather it molds but adding a bit of vin will greatly decrease the odds of getting mold. I only keep six 32 oz cultures now. That feeds around 30 frogs every day and I haven't had a problem with mold in over a year!


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## lizardstowe (Sep 6, 2005)

BTW....
I also boil my excel in water with a few teaspoons of vin to undermine spores


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

boiling it with vinegar drives off the acetic acid which the mold inhibitor. 

Do you get the same problems if you leave the excelsior out of the culture? 

I microwave my containers after the media has been parceled out to eliminate any grain mites living in the media mix and reduce contamination while passing out the mix. 

How much live yeast are you adding to the containers before you add the flies. 

What kind of ventilated top are you using for air flow? 

Ed


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## fishdoc (Apr 24, 2007)

*ff finally!!*

Hey, I hear you, it took me about three months of frusteration and buying from here, rush order from there, now I have ff coming out of my ears... or at least crawling in them!! From what I gathered, the media is pretty much not the problem....the last batch I used butter flavored potatoe flakes from sams club, brewers yeast from the feed store, 3 cups flakes to 1 cup brewers yeast, and 1/2 water and 1/2 cider vinegar.... I had old stuff laying around, like old jello...thats just agar and fruit right, so I threw that in.... old instant rice.... it's essentially voodoo... the chicken sacrifice may have helped. That said, persistence is everything... and sometimes like sports doc said, I don't put anything in. to climb on.. some I use coffee filters, and I have old mesh from aquarium filters... I use that too... One person suggested spraying with diluted vinegar at the first sign of mold... but it seems like its just holding your mouth right... good luck and hang in there...


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

as has been said already, ditch the excelsior ad try a few conical coffee filters (bleached or unbleached, i've never noticed a difference) folded into an accordion shape. push a couple in point-down and a couple in point-up.

I have one culture that i got from blackjungle to freshen up my fly culturing, and it's packed with excelsior. it's useless. the media stays too damp, the excelsior looks sogged up and "rotted", and most larvae and pupae don't seem to be able to make the transition to adult fly... 

if you do use excelsio, use it reasonably sparingly and make sure it's loose enough to allow good airflow through the culture, as the larvae need drier conditions in order to pupate properly


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

A think I've noticed in relation to excelsior... the stuff usually used, yes, the above can happen. I've been trying the new stuff from ED's and had much more success. I don't think the addition of the excelsior causes that much of an issue humidity wise (with it staying too damp) as much as how much ventilation the cup you use... you don't need to pack the culture with excelsior either. I've seen cultures packed to the gills with the stuff... I use it more sparingly, about half the amount most people use... it doesn't usually even touch the lid of the culture. Another tip... the excelsior is typically compacted to make it take up less space... stretch it out and expand it as much as you can, it allows for more air flow and what not. A solid chunk of excelsior doesn't help much.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Shortly after moving to Montana, I started having similar mold problems in cultures that I'd had going strong in Kansas for years. The solution for me was to set up complete cultures except for adding the flies and yeast, and nuking them in the microwave for 5 minutes. After they cool, I add the yeast and flies and my mold problems are gone. Like Ed said, this cuts down on the grain mites too.

One note on excelsior. One possible way it could contribute to mold is because it provides a carbon source. Combined with the humidity inside a culture, this would provide a perfect substrate for fungus to grow on.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

> The solution for me was to set up complete cultures except for adding the flies and yeast, and nuking them in the microwave for *5 minutes*. After they cool, I add the yeast and flies and my mold problems are gone.


Are you sure you meant 5 minutes? If I were to do five minutes, the media would boil to a burnt mess!!

I have been microwaving the empty cups for 1 minute. But doing this to the media sounds like a good idea, thanks, I will try this.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

you may need to microwave the cultures for a different amount of time depending on the conditions of the media. 
I only nuke my cultures for about 2.5 minutes (give or take 30 seconds depending on how wet the culture is...) 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

dragonfrog said:


> > The solution for me was to set up complete cultures except for adding the flies and yeast, and nuking them in the microwave for *5 minutes*. After they cool, I add the yeast and flies and my mold problems are gone.
> 
> 
> Are you sure you meant 5 minutes? If I were to do five minutes, the media would boil to a burnt mess!!
> ...


Yes, I meant 5 minutes. But I should have said that my frog room microwave is small and weak. It would take half as long in our kitchen microwave. I nuke them until they are too hot to hold and steaming. The media usually splits open during the process but doesn't burn. I also moisten the foam plugs before nuking them to generate a little steam in there as well.

Like Ed said, the nuking time will depend on a lot of things.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

I usually nuke mine for about thirty seconds, but we have a pretty new microwave. I have never had any problems at all with mold killing my cultures *knocks on wood* Now I have had mold in my hydei but it never has killed them. I also recently started mixing cultures after talking to Corey. I also dont use exselsior, cross stitch plastic does well for my melano. cultures. I use coffee filters for my hydei.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

I've had essentially no molding problems with FF cultures since my early days in the hobby. I've also used coffee filters and excelsior interchangeably...each have their pluses and minuses. I've not had to resort to 'nuking' my cultures in the microwave (thankfully) to keep mold down but have made a couple of observations about what seems to have helped me.

1) Culture setup is done in a well ventilated area well away from the existing FF cultures and frogs. When I was doing my FF culture setup in the basement with the frogs and FFs, I tended to have many more issues.

2) Cleanliness seems to help as well. Anytime my hands are going to come into contact with materials that will go into the culture cup, be it grains of yeast, excelsior, etc. I will thoroughly scrub them down and dry them with a clean cloth or paper towel. Something I learned from my days of doing sterile tissue culture...it doesn’t eliminate everything but it sure helps.

Bill


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

elmoisfive said:


> 2) Cleanliness seems to help as well. Anytime my hands are going to come into contact with materials that will go into the culture cup, be it grains of yeast, excelsior, etc. I will thoroughly scrub them down and dry them with a clean cloth or paper towel. *Something I learned from my days of doing sterile tissue culture*...it doesn’t eliminate everything but it sure helps.
> 
> Bill


BINGO

Making fly cultures (for me) is about as arduous of a task as can be made, and not so much due to the media preparation, material, cleaning, layering, mixing and such as the cause of the time expenditure , but a lot of it has to do w/ KEEPING it clean while in the process of making it into a culture. Lid on lid off, lid on lid off, as if I were trying to resrict some invisible ghost from passage (friom the perspective of the average "NORMAL" person watching). Not paying attention to where your hands are going (above) and where they have been is probably the #1 cause of infestation (as long as it is quality, fresh media). Another overlooked possibilty which goes hand in hand is the disturbance of air (which chances are some mold is always going to be present anyway) and settled particles in the room which you unintentionally stir up while uneccessarily strutting about chasing yourself and everything you forgot to get together all at once before starting, leaving the culture exposed. The quicker you whip up a culture the better the chance of it remaining clean. Or I should say the time at which the culture is exposed to the exterior environment will deterimine rate of success. Also a great idea to keep your mouth shut and use your nose as intended, a habit for all the slack jawed yolkls to abandon.

It doesn't take a lot concentration, if it does, and you leave your tongue sticking out, you just screwed up.

If you use a citric media it's (much) more forgiving and less fool proof if you happen to be untidy or have common occurances of mold. Adding honey, yeast etc. will improve your odds if needed. Though no excuse to be dirty still not a 'bad' idea to think before you react and end up just slopping a mess together. Keep everthing covered/contained, wet or dry, whether being the media, jars, lids, mesh anything left exposed that's going to somehow end up on or in the culture is an all way paid ticket for mold.

P.S. No cooking/heating required, and say 'good' bye to black fungus FOREVER and w/ consistancy (on your part), ALL mold.


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## Almecum (Aug 3, 2007)

I am just getting back into having frogs again but I used nothing but Eds mix and have never had any issue with mold, knock on wood…
I use mason jars and 2 and 3 liter bottles for cultures. I use a mix of ¼ cup of both Vinegar and Bleach to 1 Gal of water to clean everything up before I create the cultures. When i am done with the bottles I just toss out after the get sprayed with Raid. :twisted: 
If you are keeping the cultures in the same place I would recommend cleaning the whole area very well to get kill the mold spores.
Also make sure the mixture is cold when you add in the yeast, heat will activate the yeast quickly. When I make Eds stuff I add Hot, Hot tap water and just swirl it around, then let it sit for a few hours before I add the yeast and excelsior in. It could be the yeast as well if you have a big jar of it and are using the same yeast that could be the problem.

I hope this helps you out some.


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## Lee Steele (Mar 21, 2007)

*UPDATE*

Hey All...

I appreciate all of the replies you have given to my FF questions and the apparent issues I have raising them successfullly.

Here is where we are now:

I moved the FF cultures from the home office to, believe it or not, our kitchen. Guess what? My new cultures are doing FANFREAKINTASTIC! That is literally the only change I have made so far. 

In my next cultures I think I am going to play and experiement with using less excelsior and I might try coffee filters and other things to provide space in the culture for the flies.

Anyway... all is well and good... SO FAR... and I sincerely appreciate all of your help and idea. 

Feel free to keep them coming!

OH... now that I have FFs coming out my ears... any suggestions on what I could do with all the extras? I hate to just do away with them as I hate wasting anything... ??? I thought about seeing if our local pet shop could use them but cant seem to find any laws or regulations that might control this... ideas?

Many Thanks Again!
Lee


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> I second the backing off the excelsior idea as if you live in a humid area it could contribute to the problems.
> 
> Another thought is you could also have a mold problem in your home. I seem to remember someone a couple years ago who found a very serious mold issues in there home after ff culturing issues like this.
> 
> Call Eds as well they are always helpful, and may have some ideas we have not brought up here.


Kyle,

That was us!!! We found out the hard way we had a crack in our foundation. I think during construction some idiot rolled over the drainage tiles and broke one in that area. The leak found it's way through the crack and got the insulation wet...and then it molded. We had to have a company come in and seal off the area, pull all the drywall & insulation down in the problem areas & they sealed the mold in with Binz Sealer. I wasn't hear when they did it, but Sarah said the funniest part of the entire thing was hearing a grown man scream like a little girl when a garter snake that was burmating in our wall fell out. 

What is funny, the room was our home office too. A room that we finished ourselves. 

We are not sure what came first, the mold or the ff cultures. It could have been a toss up. After we discovered the issue, we moved the cultures to different rooms in the house until we settled on the living room. 

Since we had the mold removed, we have had pink house wrap insulation as a barrier to prevent drafts in the rooms effected. We have checked them periodically & have seen some evidence of moisture so I now have two choices to fix the problem. 

1. Take the easy way out & redirect the drainage from the underground drainage tiles into our slopped backyard.
2. Dig up the area, which will be rock hard, run over too many times with a backhoe & pray we find the break (if that is even the problem) without having to go the 50 feet to the curb. (that is saying that the problem is a broken drainage time. 


Fast forward, and we now have a mite problem so I need to move the cultures to a room away from carpeting. So, we are going to try method # 1 to eliminate any future moisture and cut down on mites.

So, my advice is....if you are getting mold in one room in your house, you might try pulling the floor molding back to see if you have signs of mold. If you do, find a service that will take care of it - and be prepared to pay $1k and up for the service. Most home insurance companies have dropped mold coverage from their policies so you will end up picking up the bill.

Good luck,

Melissa


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