# Patricia dead



## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

I don't know if this is the right section I just woke up to my new male patricia from a pair i just got this week either Tuesday or Wednesday they got here now they were shipped fedex but didn't arrive till 9pm cause of a hold up of some sorts but did make it the day they were supposed to the patricia were kinda skinny tho the female is starting to put on weight it seems but them and another pair there noses were banged up pretty good I'm just wondering if anyone has any ideas why and where can send it to get tested or something and how much it will cost? 

~N8


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

First things first. Contact the seller immediately if you haven't done so already. Skinny animals and nose rubs, unless disclosed in advance, are unacceptable. These should have been brought to their attention as soon as you received them.


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

I already contacted him waiting to hear back and mentioned the nose rubs and skinny I'll post a pic of day I got them size wise 

~N8


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

~n8


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

And what about having. It tested to find out what happened is it worth it and possible? 

~N8


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Personally, I would put it in the freezer until I worked it out with the seller. Unless, of course, you have access to a better source of preservation. This is between you and they. If you need to support a claim that you did nothing wrong you can have a necropsy done. Wait to see what the seller says, and don't freeze it unless you are absolutely certain it is dead.


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

It is definitely dead I'll freeze it now then 

~N8


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## Tinctorus1 (Mar 12, 2014)

Man that is a rough looking PDF, sorry to see that you got shafted by a seller
Would you mind saying who it was from so other people can know?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Let me see how the issue resolves between me and the seller first before I say who it was if that's okay

~N8


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Before doing business with anyone, I am of the opinion that it is prudent to check dendroboard's vendor feedback forum. If a vendor hasn't a feedback thread it is my opinion that a red flag is up. Hasn't someone else done business with them? This is a small community. Not having feedback is not solid proof of a bad reputation, but would cause me to do more research.



Tinctorus1 said:


> Man that is a rough looking PDF, sorry to see that you got shafted by a seller
> Would you mind saying who it was from so other people can know?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Ya that's true the guy is more of a reptile guy and I looked and nothing then after purchase I heard few bad things so I will not do business with no one without good feed back again one day when I start shipping I'll start a feed back page for myself also right now I'm more worried about the rest of my collection tho this could potentially wipe them all out which is the most brother 

~N8


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Keep in mind that you can't name him in this thread.That would be considered vendor feedback,but if he doesn't make good you are more than welcome to post in his VF thread,but as you wrote (and I agree) It's always best to try and work it out first.

That being said,you should always quarantine new animals for this reason,so you don't have to worry about the rest of your collection.


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

Were these frogs wild caught or captive bred? If w/c were they treated before you got them,and if they are in fact wild caught,did you keep them in a quarantine set up in a separate area/room from your other frogs,and plan on having them treated/tested ? Sorry about your frogs!
Ron


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

They were CB Ron and he don't have vendor feedback which is why I shouldn't not bought

~N8


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm sorry about what happened. Those frogs don't look good. IMO, they should not have been sold like that.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

aspidites73 said:


> Personally, I would put it in the freezer until I worked it out with the seller. Unless, of course, you have access to a better source of preservation. This is between you and they. If you need to support a claim that you did nothing wrong you can have a necropsy done. Wait to see what the seller says, and don't freeze it unless you are absolutely certain it is dead.


NO! *DO NOT FREEZE IT!*

Freezing destroys cell walls and tissues. By freezing it you may severely impare the ability of anyone to make any kind of diagnosis.


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

If you don't freeze it what do you do with it then tho? And yea I agree someone was here here and thought the same 

~N8


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> NO! *DO NOT FREEZE IT!*
> 
> Freezing destroys cell walls and tissues. By freezing it you may severely impare the ability of anyone to make any kind of diagnosis.


You wouldn't find inclusion bodies, But microbiology remains the same. Parasites, their eggs, and their symbiotic flora are all still detectable. If not preserved this way. How then? Just the fridge for a few days at most.

EDIT: with PCR testing you would find DNA of the inclusion bodies. What then are you destroying?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

nate_88 said:


> If you don't freeze it what do you do with it then tho? And yea I agree someone was here here and thought the same
> 
> ~N8


It should be chilled but not frozen and necropsy performed as soon as possible.

I doubt you'll have access to any of the proper preservation chemicals to make such an explanation worthwhile. If you can get the dead frog to a vet soon, they may be able to at least properly preserve the specimen if a hasty necropsy cannot be performed.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

aspidites73 said:


> You wouldn't find inclusion bodies, But microbiology remains the same. Parasites, their eggs, and their symbiotic flora are all still detectable. If not preserved this way. How then? Just the fridge for a few days at most.
> 
> EDIT: with PCR testing you would find DNA of the inclusion bodies. What then are you destroying?


Freezing pretty much makes proper histopathology and some pathogen identification impossible.

This is veterinary medicine 101. You do not freeze dead animals if you want to have any expectation of being able to perform a proper and complete necropsy. seen keepers written up for it.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

not having a vendor feedback doesn't say much. i've sold a lot more frogs than my feedback shows. i would ask around to see if anyone's heard of them. if they've posted here, read their replies. you could even see any pics he's posted.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Freezing pretty much makes proper histopathology and some pathogen identification impossible.
> 
> This is veterinary medicine 101. You do not freeze dead animals if you want to have any expectation of being able to perform a proper and complete necropsy. seen keepers written up for it.


I would tend to regard frozen over rotten. A fridge will only delay its decomposition. In which case, if no other method available. Freezing will destroy cells. That is science. Fortunately for us, today we have PCR testing for DNA. You can chop it up in pieces and run it through a blender. You will not destroy DNA. Only rotting and chemicals can.

EDIT: It is of interest to note: Preservation in Formaldehyde will destroy DNA.


whitethumb said:


> not having a vendor feedback doesn't say much. i've sold a lot more frogs than my feedback shows. i would ask around to see if anyone's heard of them. if they've posted here, read their replies. you could even see any pics he's posted.


EDIT: Not having feedback at all says a lot more than having limited feedback. Positive feedback isn't spread nearly as fast as negative information. When someone is wronged, they speak up!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The number of things detectable via a PCR test are going to be very limited... It is going to miss many many things that would be detectable on histopathology or even on a gross necropsy. For example, you could miss out on Rhabdiform nematodes... or a septic infection of a section of intestine... I could go on for quite a bit... 
Never ever freeze a body you intend to get necropsied. One of the issues is not just that the cells rupture but as the animal thaws you end up with tissues liquifying much more quickly. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug, my bad.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

aspidites73 said:


> ZookeeperDoug, my bad.


Its all good man.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

honestly not having feedback says exactly that, nothing. 



aspidites73 said:


> EDIT: Not having feedback at all says a lot more than having limited feedback. Positive feedback isn't spread nearly as fast as negative information. When someone is wronged, they speak up!


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Ok ya I was mostly just worried bout all the others and stuff I'm just gonna start swabbing all new frogs most likely or request reports of it from the seller if they tested 

~N8


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

It would appear as though these Frogs were already placed in a permanent tank? if so everything in that tank is now potentially trash. Since these came from a reptile person as you said they still could be from the recent import and have not been treated. Did you get any guarantee beyond live arrival? did you get them from a member here or from some other site? some reptile vendors don't guarantee beyond live arrival and do not test or treat them. If you have not gotten positive resolution I would start the feedback thread to at least warn others.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

I'm pretty sure ur not supposed to freeze animals there only supposed to go in the fridge. If you didn't know I just read what aspidites told you bud.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Sorry just finished reading...my bad..


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Yep i rushed and put them in permanent tank and screwed everything up and ya they are supposed to be CB tho and no but were supposed to been healthy when shipped he has till Tonight to try and fix this issue with me before I try and pursue some type of action and then I'll start the feed back 

~N8


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

What type of guarantee did you get? Feedback may be your only recourse I have read some of those reptile dealer guarantees, they don't guarantee beyond live arrival on amphibians as well as WC in general, even if CB. Buyer beware!


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Ya and that's pretty much what I got so idk 

~N8


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Nate, sorry about your experience. Those animals did not look healthy, and I would have to think the seller realized that. So, they should be working with you to remedy this situation.

For future reference, there are quite a few board members producing really nice, healthy animals, with great reputations. They might not always be the lowest price, but I have found the prices to be close. Once you take into consideration the customer support and health of the animals provided its an easy decision, especially for those of us that have been around for a little while.


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## punctata (Jan 31, 2011)

I always ask for pictures of the animals I buy. It can help a lot


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Thanks cbreon ya I know I'm not gonna purchase again from someone I don't know well enough just to avoid this issue and I'm still waiting to hear back from the guy so still hoping it's resolved and hoping the other 3 are ok and swabs come back clean 

~N8


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

nate_88 said:


> Thanks cbreon ya I know I'm not gonna purchase again from someone I don't know well enough just to avoid this issue and I'm still waiting to hear back from the guy so still hoping it's resolved and hoping the other 3 are ok and swabs come back clean
> 
> ~N8


Ok, just one more quick point, but swabs only deal with 2 or 3 things to my knowledge. My experience has been that skinny animals that wont gain weight usually have some sort of parasite. So, I would recommend some fecals too.


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## punctata (Jan 31, 2011)

I am going to take a wild guess that you were sold wc that this "reptile" guy said were cb to get quick money. This would be my assuntion as half of the reptile community is shady as hell. The frogs had bad nose rub, skinny and one already dead. Yea just a guess. Or the guy took terrible care of them while trying to flip the frogs


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Ya I might try and do the fecal also then thanks and ya I had my thoughts about them being WC also I mean why lie if they were it wouldn't of been that big of a deal 

~N8


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

So update right now I'm worried and want to test frogs for diseases and such but when ready he will replace the frog he assured me they are CB tho line not sure and if test come back then I'm going to discuss it future with him for a better result but if all is well with test I'll assume it was stress from shipping and malnourished but either way once this is totally resolved things will be done differently I appreciate everyone's help here and wish the frogs the best and they survive cause the powder blue male don't seem very good either not wanting to eat rubs at his nose with his arm so I kinda think he won't pull through but you have all helped alot thanks 

~N8


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

I would pull the remaining frogs put them in a a QT tub and test them for chytrid and parasites. Do the same with the replacement frogs in a separate Qt container. Necropsies can be expensive typically 150 plus. Or you can ask for a refund and buy from a reliable seller. The viv needs to be torn down, sterilized with a bleach solution.


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

I know and ya the refund would be the best option that's he's not wanting to offer and tearing the tanks down Suck also but ya thanks 

~N8


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Well if he is only going to replace the frog's do proper QT and testing if they come back with the same issues VF would be the next step. It's all about credibility.
I would still recommend tearing down the viv. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...t/26685-asn-quarantine-medical-protocols.html


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Ok thank you 

~N8


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Starting to look like it's not gonna be resolved I been waiting for miney to show now I'm getting some different words today anyone interested in knowing more I've saved everything and till am 

~N8


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not sure that the pictures actually show frogs that are really thin and the one picture doesn't show a nose rub. If there were nose rubs from shipping or before shipping, they should have been visible in the picture with the two frogs sitting side by side. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...eatment/172538-patricia-dead.html#post1885090 

I'm also not sure I would call the frogs skinny. They may be skinny compared to the commonly posted pictures of obese tinctorius but they aren't skinny when compared to the pictures of tinctorius in the wild. 
I'd also be skeptical that a newly shipped frog would put a lot of weight on in 16 days from the first post. 

The suggestions to pull the remaining frogs into quarantine and do testing is a good one and I would suggest following it. 

With respect to your collection, how many frogs have you just put into their permanent enclosures versus going through at least a 30 day quarantine or several clean fecals which ever is longer? If you haven't done this with all of your other animals then you can't be sure which way there was pathogen transmission so you should test all of your animals. Keep in mind that escaped fruit flies/bean beetles and things like fungus gnats can carry things between enclosures again, test everything. This is before we get to the potential issues of cross transfer between cages through the use of hands and equipment. Even using hand sanatizer isn't sufficient disinfection Either wash your hands or use disposable gloves and tools should be washed between cages. 

Unless there is a critical reason to do so, just placing newly received frogs into their permanent enclosures is a poor decision because of the factors I've mentioned above.. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

Both the females from 2 pairs I got one was powder blue pair other was patricia the males both died right away patricia first 

~N8


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nate, 

How long after putting them in the cage did you see the nose rubs? It is very possible that the frogs developed the nose rubs from the enclosure. As an example check out the rubs here in this leucomelas thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/88200-leucomelas-nose-rub.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/32772-nose-rub.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/77559-tincs-nose-rub.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/128305-nose-rub.html

As you can see, frogs that had been in enclosures for periods of time have developed nose rubs so it's not unheard of... 
The reason I commented was I read your posts more closely and then looked at your pictures. As I noted above, the nose rubs aren't showing in those initial pictures. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

I seen it in the containers when they got here they had alot of room to bounce around with just that paper towel in there but it got worse and worse ok I'll check out that tread thanks 

~N8


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

nate_88 said:


> I seen it in the containers when they got here they had alot of room to bounce around with just that paper towel in there but it got worse and worse ok I'll check out that tread thanks
> 
> ~N8


The amount of space in the containers is a somewhat controversial topic. I've shipped things for more than 20 years now and I've never had nose rubs occur in larger containers (I often use the 16 ounce deli cups for frogs even small one's like pumilio). People forget that the inside of the box is dark and the frogs as with many other animals are going to hunker down. So the size of the container really isn't conclusive proof that is where the rubs occurred. In addition if it was because the box got tossed around, I would expect to see lesions all over the frogs not just the snouts. It isn't like the frogs are only going to impact on their nose.... 

The picture in the container that you posted doesn't show a nose rub. The picture of the two frogs in the tank doesn't show a nose rub. 

I know your upset you had some new frogs come in and die. It happens to everyone. I picked up a captive bred male bastimentos to pair an extra female up a couple of years ago and he died three days after arriving in quarantine. Why? Nothing conclusive. It happens, it can suck, but it happens. 

Some comments 

Ed


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