# Selective breeding based on temperament



## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

If very bold frogs are bred together could it potentially result in less shy offspring? And perhaps even continue this by breeding the boldest of the offspring together...

I'm also curious if this would be frowned upon by the dart frogger community? I probably won't ever have time or room, but it's been on my mind. It would be cool to have frogs that don't hide all the time


----------



## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes, it would likely work, however, when you breed for behavior you can affect stress levels which in turn can affect hormone levels which can change the expression of genes. So, by breeding for something as simple as boldness, you could affect things like color, size, disease resistance, all sorts of things.


----------



## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

phender said:


> Yes, it would likely work, however, when you breed for behavior you can affect stress levels which in turn can affect hormone levels which can change the expression of genes. So, by breeding for something as simple as boldness, you could affect things like color, size, disease resistance, all sorts of things.


Very interesting! Thanks for the reply.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

If you want to see some of the community's thoughts, find the part of the Dart Frog Warehouse thread where they started making claims about temperament of their frogs...


----------



## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

carola1155 said:


> If you want to see some of the community's thoughts, find the part of the Dart Frog Warehouse thread where they started making claims about temperament of their frogs...


Oh  /thread

Yeah, I don't want to go down this path...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

To some extent we can expect that this is occurring in the enclosures as frogs that are at a disadvantage due to maladaption to captivity aren't as likely to reproduce. One potential example of this is going to be somewhat relaxed direct selection as the average person isn't as likely to keep frogs that they rarely or never see and these animals are going to be sold off or given away unless there is some driver to keep them (status, rareness) while frogs that are out fairly constantly are going to be much more likely to be kept and reproduced. So over time we should expect to see the frogs having a reduced flight distance... 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> So over time we should expect to see the frogs having a reduced flight distance...
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Sounds like Ed's been flinging his frogs around the basement again.

Seriously though, how about the "gene packets" Ed has mentioned? If genes come in packets, it's not even possible to change only the boldness. Other things will be attached to that gene pocket, forcing changes that you were not looking for.


----------



## baskis (Jun 7, 2015)

Doesn't that occur with all domesticated animals? Selecting for temperament also changes a number of morphological traits. If I remember correctly an experiment on domestication of Russian silver foxes showed that selecting for temperament and behavior brought about changes in physical appearance and even in some cases lessened the number of vertebrae.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

baskis said:


> Doesn't that occur with all domesticated animals? Selecting for temperament also changes a number of morphological traits. If I remember correctly an experiment on domestication of Russian silver foxes showed that selecting for temperament and behavior brought about changes in physical appearance and even in some cases lessened the number of vertebrae.


That is pretty much one of the classics in regard to overt changes in behavior and shape but there can also be less overt changes in gene frequencies as directed selection causes a loss of genetic diversity. One of the things people don't really think about is that selecting for one obvious trait is going to cause changes in all of the genes as you can't select only just one of them and therefore there are going to be unintended consequences. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

we could always just start using CRISPR-Cas9


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A recent study on frogs, loss of genetic diversity and susceptibility to a pathogen. 

See Pearman, Peter B., and Trenton WJ Garner. "Susceptibility of Italian agile frog populations to an emerging strain of Ranavirus parallels population genetic diversity." Ecology Letters 8.4 (2005): 401-408. 

free access at https://www.researchgate.net/profil..._diversity/links/0f317534d525d8cfde000000.pdf

some comments 

Ed


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

What is bold for some can be shy for others, tank set up, ambient humidity and cover can alter greatly how a frog reacts in a tank. A shy frog in one tank can be bold in another, also reaching breeding age and those behaviors can dramatically effect this as well. I think this would be too difficult based on the variables.


----------



## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

This thread is just going to keep going isn't it? Oh well, there's some really cool info in here and I'm enjoying it.

I wasn't aware that breeding for personality traits could potentially alter so many other things. I was kind of aware that selective breeding was "forbidden" but I assumed that was based on breeding for physical characteristics.

So what if I have very shy frogs that are breeding? I've been thinking I'm going to limit their breeding or stop altogether. I don't like the idea of adding shy frogs to the gene pool or a new frogger ending up with really shy frogs and not enjoying them. Is this a good or bad idea?


----------



## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

There's a difference between "I will intensely breed this animal for a specific trait" and "this group of animals has an undesirable trait, I will not breed them". The latter is generally not frowned upon anywhere unless the undesirable trait is minor and the group is of very rare creatures.


----------



## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Betta132 said:


> There's a difference between "I will intensely breed this animal for a specific trait" and "this group of animals has an undesirable trait, I will not breed them". The latter is generally not frowned upon anywhere unless the undesirable trait is minor and the group is of very rare creatures.


From a hobby stand point they are different, but from a conservation stand point they are same and is one of the reasons that hobby frogs could not be used to repopulate an endangered population. 

Both strategies will reduce the genetic variation in the population. From a conservation stand point all organisms who are capable of breeding should be allowed to, thus preserving the genetic diversity of the population. Most people select frogs that they like the best, whether it be color, pattern or size and these are the frogs they use for breeding. This alone inadvertently eliminates genes that would normally be present in the wild population.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

port_plz said:


> I wasn't aware that breeding for personality traits could potentially alter so many other things. I was kind of aware that selective breeding was "forbidden" but I assumed that was based on breeding for physical characteristics.


Active direct selection increases the rate at which genes are lost to the population as basically your driving the animal's genetic makeup towards the least diversity and greatest common phenotype. Relaxed direct selection is where people are making choices based on personal choices which also reduces diversity but generally at a slower rate as not everyone tends to pick what they think is the optimal trait. 



port_plz said:


> So what if I have very shy frogs that are breeding? I've been thinking I'm going to limit their breeding or stop altogether. I don't like the idea of adding shy frogs to the gene pool or a new frogger ending up with really shy frogs and not enjoying them. Is this a good or bad idea?


Tell the buyers that the parents are shy and that the offspring maybe shy. That is really all that is required, just tell them the truth. If they like the frogs, they they may still buy them. 
The frogs in the wild already have decreased flight distances 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

There are some nutcases out there who have/had an entire collection, put together with nothing but what the hobby labels as shy. Seems like I knew someone like that...


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

markpulawski said:


> What is bold for some can be shy for others, tank set up, ambient humidity and cover can alter greatly how a frog reacts in a tank. A shy frog in one tank can be bold in another, also reaching breeding age and those behaviors can dramatically effect this as well. I think this would be too difficult based on the variables.


I had 2 female benedicta that I saw twice in 6 months. Once I added a male, they were all over the place.

My Vanzolini viv looked empty for months, then they were everywhere once breeding kicked in. It was very cyclical. A friend who set up a tank with offspring from my group, reports exactly the same thing.


----------

