# Do you lie when you ship live?



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

How many people do not mark a package that it contains live frogs (instead, do not mark or just mark it as "plants" like a few vendors did for me).

Will you pay a fine if the shipper finds out it is not agreeable with their terms? The most I saw is that Fedex has the right to refuse or destroy the package if it is not agreeable with their terms.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Don't ask don't tell... :lol:


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

This is exactly why I use USPS. You can mark the package as "Live Tropical Frogs" without causing a fuss. In fact, I've had a package saved from possible doom before because a guy at the airport was getting ready to put the box on a commercial flight and noticed the label. He called me from Denver to ask if it would be alright to put the package on a later flight that would be in a pressurized hold. He explained that the current flight would be unpressurized and he was worried about the temps. The package probably would have been fine either way as it was well insulated and contained heat packs, but I thanked the guy and said yes, I would prefer the later flight.

There was a brief period when you could not lable USPS packages as live animals because USPS had contracted with FedEx to carry their packages. This was a mess because the post office was just fine with shipping live animals. But when the package got to a FedEx shipping point was when the troubles started. The package would be refused and returned to the post office. So the frogs took an unnecessary and potentially dangerous trip for no reason. That relationship didn't last long though and things are back to normal at USPS.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

how long ago did this happen Brent?

I was browsing the "shippers: who do you prefer?" and there are mixed responses. Some people claim that it's better just to use Delta Dash without the hassle because they are used to carrying live animals without the potential that animals might be delayed.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> how long ago did this happen Brent?


I'm not sure which you are referring to. The USPS/FedEx agreement was several years ago and I'm not sure of the details. All I knowis that for awhile we would get frog packaged bounced back to us after being accepted by the post office but being stopped at the FedEx shipping point. But here is a link that should be of interest: http://www.lovebirdsplus.com/community/ ... hp?p=14799

I do know that I shipped several packages of frogs from the local USPS within the last 2 years that was clearly marked "Live Tropical Frogs" and had no hassles at all.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

For the last few years I have used USPS Express Mail with great results, however packing the animals is the key. I was unaware they took live animals that were declared, interesting info Brent, I wonder if all of their personnel are awre of this?
Mark


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I don't say anything other than 'what do I owe you'. I And I sure don't put targets like "fragile' on my stuff. I will never, ever use USPS.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rich, there isn't a carrier in existence that hasn't delivered a package that looked like that. One important tip to shipping via USPS though is to have the package held at the post office at the destination rather than going out for delivery on a truck. I know of a few shipments of blue jeans pumilio that froze into icecicles on the Denver tarmac and they were being shipped Delta Dash! I received my pumilio the same day via Dash and the service could not have been better. They even let me open the package and inspect the frogs at the airport (pre-9/11). Our UPS drivers are fond of just tossing packages out into the snow along the road. Every service is going to mangle a box now and then.

Mark, I know someone who did get some grief at the post office once by someone who didn't understand the regs well. She read the regs which listed some exclusions and then said live animals like tropical fish can be sent. She told the guy, "these aren't fish, so I can't take them". He told her they were tadpoles which are a type of fish and she took them. I doubt I could have thought that fast but I still think it's funny.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

bbrock said:


> Rich, there isn't a carrier in existence that hasn't delivered a package that looked like that. One important tip to shipping via USPS though is to have the package held at the post office at the destination rather than going out for delivery on a truck. I know of a few shipments of blue jeans pumilio that froze into icecicles on the Denver tarmac and they were being shipped Delta Dash! I received my pumilio the same day via Dash and the service could not have been better. They even let me open the package and inspect the frogs at the airport (pre-9/11). Our UPS drivers are fond of just tossing packages out into the snow along the road. Every service is going to mangle a box now and then.


I have received QUITE a few boxes (most not labeled 'fragile') from almost all of the other carriers and never, never, had anything close to that. I have however had other USPS boxes dropped that look very close to the above pic.

This box was held at the Post Office. 

I totally agree on the ring and run statement about UPS to residents. You really have to keep lookin' out the door. But with USPS there is little or no recourse when they ( and they are bound to) mess up.
Again, and I can not state this strongly enough, I WILL NEVER, NEVER SHIP WITH USPS. PERIOD.


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

bbrock said:


> He told her they were tadpoles which are a type of fish and she took them. I doubt I could have thought that fast but I still think it's funny.


By the definition used by some taxonomists and cladists all amphibians, reptiles, birds, mammals, and Coelacanthes are lobed finned fish (sarcopterygians).

I guess it is a matter of how confident you can be in your answers, and avoid smirking.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

bbrock said:


> One important tip to shipping via USPS though is to have the package held at the post office at the destination rather than going out for delivery on a truck.


I prefer hold for pickup over truck delivery hands down. But with USPS - this can be very tricky. 

With FedEx - almost every site will do hold for pickup - and the webiste "locate" option will tell you if they do or don't.

This option with USPS varies from post office to post office though. Now - before shipping to any PO via USPS Express as Hold for pickup - I have the person receiving the frogs call the PO to verify they will hold - and to let them know it is coming. 

On more than one occasion - packages shipped to the local post office have been refused to be given to the recipient without long arguments. Also - one morning I got a call from an out of area number on my cell. I am of the mindset if I don't know your number - I don't answer (and I rarely keep my phone on me while in the lab). But I knew that I shipped frogs the day before so I answered. It was the lady at the PO at the destination telling me she was shipping the box back to me because no one of that name worked there. This was despite the fact that the box was clearly labeled "Hold for Pickup" in several places.

I still use USPS - and haven't had too many problems (no more than any other carrier) - but I do urge everyone to directly contact the PO before sending it as a hold.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

rozdaboff said:


> bbrock said:
> 
> 
> > One important tip to shipping via USPS though is to have the package held at the post office at the destination rather than going out for delivery on a truck.
> ...


I was told onetime that the only way they (usps) will hold a package is if the mail recipient puts a hold on their mail...such as people do when they go on vacation.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I think the point here is that these are global operations that have local staff involved in decision making and service. One carrier in your local area may suck more than another but it may be the opposite for another location. Rich, you at least get a ring at your door from UPS. They typically won't come within three miles of my house (seriously). So they often just prop the package on top of our mailbox or dump it in the snow along the frontage road - 3 miles from our house and in plain view of Interstate 90. And I've gotten many more packages from UPS like the one in your picture than from USPS. It just depends on the people involved at both ends, and we typically only have knowledge of the quality at our own end.

Interesting that people have had problems with package holds. I've shipped frogs from 2 states and have always had them more than happy to not send a package out on a truck. I will say though that I haven't shipped nearly as many frog packages as you guys have.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^
But one very important thing to remember is that when you complain to a publicly held company vs. a government owned bureaucracy your complaint goes a lot, lot, farther with the UPSs, FedExs , DHLs , ect. than it does with the guy who knows, KNOWS he will NEVER get fired.

Rich


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> ^
> But one very important thing to remember is that when you complain to a publicly held company vs. a government owned bureaucracy your complaint goes a lot, lot, farther with the UPSs, FedExs , DHLs , ect. than it does with the guy who knows, KNOWS he will NEVER get fired.
> 
> Rich


I see, it's an anti-guvment thing :wink: Spend a week out here and talk to people about who provides better customer service between USPS and UPS. We have a saying, "What can brown do to you?" I can say that I have never gotten so mad at USPS that I put my fist through a wall, but I can't say that about UPS. And it's not that I love the postal service, they have their own hangups. But anybody can give crappy service if you put the right people in charge. All I can say is that if I ever buy frogs from you, PLEASE don't send them UPS. Or if you do, just do them a favor and hit them in the head with a hammer before you put them in the box.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^ 
Again, I realize that each area has better and worse carriers I just choose not to go with the one that can spit in your face and get away with it.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Oh, and I now use FedEx so if there are any 'heads up' anybody would like to offer please , shoot away.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Heads up... their rates just went up by bout 30%!!! OUCH!!!


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Check this thread for some interesting FedEx Heads-Up points:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35649


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rozdaboff said:


> Check this thread for some interesting FedEx Heads-Up points:
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35649


Sigh... another victim of the dreaded threaded forum. I don't visit the lounge because I'm not interested in fantasy leagues or who likes what music. And here is this really helpful thread I would have never seen had you not pointed it out Oz.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

In all fairness I think it should be clear when shipping a light box with something like plants, it is a good idea to reinforce the box. Reason being is that these maybe stacked with items weighing more, so you can expect a collapsed box. Many times with boxes that look like the picture in this thread I would tend to blame the shipper before the shipping company. Id bet a reinforced box would have not had more than a scratch.

Personally I do not think of the USPS as a shipping company but where I get my mail. FedEX, UPS, DHL, Airborne are shipping companies.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Could you imagine what this would be like unthreaded? Nothing like trying to follow a couple hundred e-mails a day. 



bbrock said:


> rozdaboff said:
> 
> 
> > Check this thread for some interesting FedEx Heads-Up points:
> ...


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

kyle1745 said:


> Could you imagine what this would be like unthreaded? Nothing like trying to follow a couple hundred e-mails a day.


I think it would be like listening to my 4 year old tell me about his day. Not a bad thing, just takes almost a day to figure out what he did during the day. 

As for shipping, I have only done it once and I lied like a rug.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

bbrock said:


> Rich, you at least get a ring at your door from UPS. They typically won't come within three miles of my house (seriously). So they often just prop the package on top of our mailbox or dump it in the snow along the frontage road - 3 miles from our house and in plain view of Interstate 90


I think they have heard about wolves and you and drawn the conclusion that the better part of valor is discretion :wink: 

Bill


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

WOW I missed that... 3miles to the mail box...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

One of the items I didn't see mentioned here is that it is simple to become a verified shipper for frogs for fedex. 
You just need to contact the relevant people and ship them a test box. They open the box and verify that its okay and thats the end of it. The downside is that you have to pay for the shipping. 
After than you can ship frogs without any hassel. The only downside is you need to do this with each herp group you would want to send... in other words, non-venomous snakes, lizards etc. 

If you are caught shipping or recieving improperly marked packages containing herps then you may be at risk of LACY Act violations. 

See snip "1. Marking Offenses

The Lacey Act requires wildlife shipments traveling in interstate or foreign commerce to be accurately marked, but it addresses this issue in two separate subsections, [FN193] whose coverage is inconsistent and whose penalties are substantially different.

a. Failure to Plainly Mark or Label Containers of Fish or Wildlife

Section 3372(b) [FN194] prohibits the import, export, or transport in interstate commerce of any container of wildlife or fish that is not plainly marked, labeled, or tagged as required by the applicable regulations. [FN195] This section is notable for two reasons. First, violators of section 3372(b) are subject only to a civil fine of up to $250; no criminal sanction is prescribed. [FN196] Second, this section applies only to containers of fish and wildlife; neither the statute nor the applicable regulations contain any requirement that containers of plants be plainly marked, tagged, or labeled. [FN197]

b. Preparing False Documents for Shipments of Wildlife, Fish, or Plants

Section 3372(d) also addresses the documents that must accompany wildlife shipments, [FN198] but it differs from section 3372(b) in four ways. First, it does not use the word "container," instead penalizing the making or submitting of any false record, account, label, or identification of a wildlife shipment. [FN199] Second, it applies to shipments of plants as well as to shipments of wildlife and fish. [FN200] Third, it applies to shipments that are intended for travel in foreign or interstate commerce as well as those that are actually shipped. [FN201] This allows agents to intercept fraudulent shipments prior to their departure from a country or particular state, as well as fraudulent shipments traveling through the United States from one foreign country to another. Finally, violation of this section carries either a misdemeanor or felony penalty, depending on certain factors. It is a felony if the document was made or submitted knowingly [FN202] and the shipment involved a sale or purchase of wildlife, fish, or plants worth more than $350. [FN203] A felony sanction also applies if the shipment of fish, wildlife, or plants is imported or exported, regardless of the shipment's value or the occurrence of a sale or purchase. [FN204] For example, a hunter who kills an elk in Montana and ships it to Wyoming using a false label would ordinarily be subject to a misdemeanor penalty. Commercial activity (such as the use of a professional guide during the hunt) and market value exceeding $350 would elevate the marking violation to a felony. However, if the knowingly mismarked elk is exported to Canada, the hunter would be subject to felony prosecution regardless of the elk's value or the hunter's involvement in any purchase or sale of the elk."endsnip

Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

kyle1745 said:


> In all fairness I think it should be clear when shipping a light box with something like plants, it is a good idea to reinforce the box.
> FedEX, UPS, DHL, Airborne are shipping companies.


I agree, as did the shipper of the box I pictured. The box was reinforced with thick styro. Took real effort to mess up that bad .

Rich


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> One of the items I didn't see mentioned here is that it is simple to become a verified shipper for frogs for fedex.
> You just need to contact the relevant people and ship them a test box. They open the box and verify that its okay and thats the end of it. The downside is that you have to pay for the shipping.


Who are the "relevant people," and what do you mean by test box? A box with a live frog in it, or an empty box to show them your shipping methods?

Are you excluding the possibility that they may "hold the package" or waive your live arrival gaurantee?

About the LACEY act, wouldn't that apply only to native species?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

> Live Animals and Ornamental Marine Life (Including Live Fish)
> 
> FedEx Express does not accept live-animal shipments as part of its regular-scheduled service and does not transport household pets such as dogs, cats, birds and hamsters. FedEx Express may accept certain shipments of live animals such as horses, livestock and zoo animals (to and from zoo locations only) on an exception basis if approved and coordinated by the FedEx Live Animal Desk (call 1.800.405.9052).
> 
> ...


Doesnt look all that easy Ed :shock: 

S


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I would really suggest that the thread in the 'lounge' gets moved. I'm sure it would do more good in 'general' or any place else :wink: .
Maybe a new thread on how many peruse the 'lounge' :wink: ?

Rich


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> Could you imagine what this would be like unthreaded? Nothing like trying to follow a couple hundred e-mails a day.


Yeah, I can. And it is a wonderful dream  But you already knew I was the forum curmudgeon. Thanks for moving the thread whoever did it.

The Lacey Act does not apply to just native species. It regulates interstate transport of all protected wildlife (both native and non) and all pdf are protected under CITES Appendix-II.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> I would really suggest that the thread in the 'lounge' gets moved. I'm sure it would do more good in 'general' or any place else :wink: .
> Maybe a new thread on how many peruse the 'lounge' :wink: ?
> 
> Rich


I use the this link on the index page http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/searc ... d=newposts ...shows all the threads you haven't read...mark all read (bottom of the page) then when you come on again, it will show all the threads that have received a post, no matter the category.

Makes it real easy IMO


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> ............with USPS there is little or no recourse when they ( and they are bound to) mess up.
> Again, and I can not state this strongly enough, I WILL NEVER, NEVER SHIP WITH USPS. PERIOD.


Rich

Not entirely true. My local USPS has a full time customer service Supervisor that answers directly to the Post Master. I have found this individual very receptive to constructive criticism actually. And very responsive. 

They did indicate however that they are not responsible unless a package is sent insured. 

He was very helpful in speaking with my actual letter carrier and ironing out issues regard my rural mail drop off and getting packages at the house rather than hanging from my rural box a mile away, ect, ect.

At least I felt my criticism wasnt falling on deaf ears.

S


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> [quote="Rich Frye":3bkm1vut]
> ............with USPS there is little or no recourse when they ( and they are bound to) mess up.
> Again, and I can not state this strongly enough, I WILL NEVER, NEVER SHIP WITH USPS. PERIOD.


Rich

Not entirely true. My local USPS has a full time customer service Supervisor that answers directly to the Post Master. I have found this individual very receptive to constructive criticism actually. And very responsive. 
S[/quote:3bkm1vut]

This has been my experience as well. In fact, I've received some of the best customer service of any business dealing with the post office. I have chaulked it up to them trying to compensate for a general reputation of having poor customer service but who knows?

One thing worth mentioning along with the insurance item Shawn mentioned. They don't guarantee live delivery. And I'm not sure how much insuring a package will protect you from loss. It has been years, but I believe there were incidents reported years ago where the insurance was only paid if there was evidence of mishandling a package compared to what would be normal for shipping perishable items. So dead frogs arriving at a doorstep may not guarantee a successul insurance claim. But that is really no different than shipping via a carrier where you can't even claim live contents in the box.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Yes, I dont think anyone will be able to recover the animal losses. Just shipping costs perhaps, or certainly dry goods.

My real reason for stating that was b/c by speaking with the customer super at the PO when I had issues, I was able to get my packages hand delivered to the house and it hasnt really hampered the 'relationship' I have with the rural carrier really. She is still just as cranky :wink: but my boxes are safer.

S


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*USPS*

I seem to have better luck with FedEx than with USPS as far as shipping frogs goes. It may just be bad luck and I really haven't been in the hobby long but the two USPS frog shipments that I have had were horrible and I have never had a problem with any of the multiple orders shipped via FedEx. The two times that frogs were shipped to me via USPS express mail took three and four days!! The second time(four days) was crazy. The frogs went from San Jose, Ca to Saint Louis, Mo (an hour and a half drive from my house) in a matter of hours and sat in Saint Louis for one day and then "En Route from Saint Louis" for three more days. I called USPS multiple times and they were unable to locate the package and told me each time that it should arrive at my post office shortly. It may just be bad luck on my part but I now try to steer clear of USPS when it comes to Frog shipments even though it is A-lot cheaper.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

sports_doc said:


> [quote="Rich Frye":1sx2swe4]
> ............with USPS there is little or no recourse when they ( and they are bound to) mess up.
> Again, and I can not state this strongly enough, I WILL NEVER, NEVER SHIP WITH USPS. PERIOD.


Rich

Not entirely true. My local USPS has a full time customer service Supervisor that answers directly to the Post Master. 

S[/quote:1sx2swe4]

Anyone who lives in Chicago want to chime in on the good ol' USPS :wink: ?

Shawn, one of the many Postal 'whoopsies" I have encountered was the direct and absolute fault of the Post Master of my town. 
I know every personal carrier is different in every town. My choice to never use the USPS will not change though no matter where I move.

Rich


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I'll change my comment to "Sometimes not entirely true..." then... :wink: 

S


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Here's a good one. What would the term "delivery confirmation' mean to everybody?
To me it would mean that I need to sign or actually confirm the letter or package or whatever got to me. For the Post Office it means that the carrier confirms it was delivered, by saying so. Someone actually has to pay extra for a postal carrier to say they did their job! To say so with no proof. Incredible! It does not mean they actually did deliver anything. It means that as opposed to every other letter, package or whatever that does not have 'delivery confirmation' paid for they actually are stating they did their job. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> Here's a good one. What would the term "delivery confirmation' mean to everybody?


Even worse than that is paying insurance. Why are we paying money just in case they do a horrible job!? Can you imagine if other industries did this?


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