# Leeches?



## Alien87 (Mar 9, 2020)

I bought some moss recently and it has some small black worms around half an inch in size, are these bad for moss? Ive been taking them out my vivarium cause they seem to eat the moss but I'm not sure. I'm trying to see if it's possible to post pics here.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

These are unlikely to be leeches and unlikely to be eating the moss. Pictures will help.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I use Imgur and then just post a link to the pictures I have posted in my album on there.

Mark


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## Alien87 (Mar 9, 2020)

https://youtu.be/VNRbur_F-kY i uploaded a video to my youtube channel, hopefully its clear enough. 

Thanks


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Does look like a leech...


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

it does look like a leech, could also be some kind of nemertean or flatworm OP. I would remove them if you can just to be on the safe side.
https://youtu.be/dUDHpWYrLq0


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

This does not look like a leech. Leeches have an attachment organ at both ends that flares-out (like a suction cup) - one end being larger than the other. This worm has a constricted point of attachment at both ends. More importantly, leeches do not have bristles or other projections like you can see near the posterior(?) end of this worm. 

It is also not a nemertean (which I don't think has ever _actually_ been documented from a viv on this board) and the posterior bristles mean it is not a flatworm (such as Rynchodemus).

This looks like it could be an arthropod larva.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I too think it is a larva. 

Drop it it a container of water - with nothing to attach itself to locomote.

If it sails like a boss its a weird leech.

If it floats and flails its not


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## Alien87 (Mar 9, 2020)

Thanks for all the replies, Ill try to drop one in water next time i see one. 
Btw i saved a wild frog almost a year ago, its been im my vivarium all this time but ive been wanting to buy some dart frogs, ill try to upload a video of it to see if ya'll know if it would be ok to have with dart frogs


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Alien87 said:


> Thanks for all the replies, Ill try to drop one in water next time i see one.
> Btw i saved a wild frog almost a year ago, its been im my vivarium all this time but ive been wanting to buy some dart frogs, ill try to upload a video of it to see if ya'll know if it would be ok to have with dart frogs


It would not.


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## Alien87 (Mar 9, 2020)

https://youtu.be/ZH5898gwp9M


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Alien,

You don't want to mix frog species like this. One of them could carry a disease which they tolerate but that could kill the other frog(s). More importantly, your frog will likely try to eat anything it can fit in it's mouth and it has a big mouth - dart frogs could end up as dinner.

Now that you experience keeping a frog alive you could set up a _separate_ viv for dart frogs, however...


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## Alien87 (Mar 9, 2020)

Thanks again for the replies and thank you kimcmich for explaining why i shouldn't mix them. If anything i might get rid of this one i have, i only got it cause it went inside a place where i used to work and i wasnt sure if it would survive if i put it back outside, but i always wanted to keep dart frogs. I just wanna be sure it will be in the right environment if i let it out.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Alien87 said:


> If anything i might get rid of this one i have, i only got it cause it went inside a place where i used to work and i wasnt sure if it would survive if i put it back outside, but i always wanted to keep dart frogs. I just wanna be sure it will be in the right environment if i let it out.


This is going to blow up into a big fight, but I'm OK with that...

Releasing captive herps isn't a good idea. In some jurisdictions it is illegal. As an example, in California:

"Reptiles or amphibians which have been in captivity, including wild-caught and captively-bred individuals or offspring, shall not be released into the wild without the written approval of the department." (Herping Regulations)

Pathogens multiply in captivity, and a released captive could have built up an infective dose, either from a pathogen already present at capture, or transmitted from cage decor, food sources, or other additions.

There are many keepers here who would recommend -- in order to prioritize the health of a regional ecosystem over the life of one "rescued" animal -- that if you can legitimately no longer care for the animal, and cannot find a permanent lifelong caretaker for it, that it be humanely euthanized, double bagged, and discarded in the trash. 

Again, I realize some people are going to get bent by this, but DB has always put more weight on animal welfare than anything else, so I'm sticking to that.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Environmental hygiene set aside, its really poor form to discard an animal just because you want the tank for another.

It represents the worse aspect of people who keep animals.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Rescue To Discard.

Sir, dont change his luck. Think about it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> Rescue To Discard.


I don't _exactly_ disagree with you, KMC, but Alien did say that he rescued it because he didn't think releasing it at the time would have led to its survival. A person might have advising simply releasing it and letting nature take its course, but I'm assuming Alien had good intentions in doing what they did. 

I'm not sure that most non-herp people realize the dangers in releasing captive natives. I myself would withhold moral judgement until knowing whether a person accepts the commitment they (unknowingly) made in "rescuing" an animal.

Alien, I'd like to point out that if you do end up reusing that viv for another animal, the viv and everything in it needs to be disinfected (bleach, heat), in addition to redesigning it for semi-arboreal frogs (darts) rather than the semi-aquatic design I assume it currently has. Setting up a second viv for dart frogs would be much easier than salvaging the existing.


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## Alien87 (Mar 9, 2020)

Lol some of you are over reacting, i never said i would discard the frog, don't put words in my mouth, i said i would want to be sure it will be ok if i do let it out, ya'll that judge are usually the ones that need to look in the mirror. And i didnt know getting a frog from the wild then releasing it back to the wild is illegal, that's ridiculous as my vivarium is very clean bioactive system, but if thats the case i can just set up another vivarium...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Not sure if it is illegal where you live -- you could check, though. And honestly, breaking laws isn't interesting; learning what is harmful through knowing environmental and wildlife regulations is, though.

Not that your viv isn't "clean" -- that's not the issue. The issue is that most wild animals coexist with a range of pathogens, but when WC animals are taken in to captivity, those pathogens can and do build up, and the immune response of the animal is not necessarily at its peak in the relative stress of captivity. 

Many pathogens are ubiquitous soil organisms that only take advantage of a host when it is stressed. This is the one of the main reasons why wild caught herps do so poorly in captivity (not that your looks poorly -- just trying to illustrate a point about disease in WC animals).

Amphibians are distinctly sensitive to pathogen overload. Many are being extirpated from the wild because of pathogens and reduced immune response. Froggers react strongly because it is a big deal, and the wild animals we care about are in bad shape. It is nothing personal.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Alien87 said:


> Lol some of you are over reacting, i never said i would discard the frog, don't put words in my mouth, i said i would want to be sure it will be ok if i do let it out, ya'll that judge are usually the ones that need to look in the mirror. And i didnt know getting a frog from the wild then releasing it back to the wild is illegal, that's ridiculous as my vivarium is very clean bioactive system, but if thats the case i can just set up another vivarium...


Sorry man, just sayin.

I have seen it all for many years, Leos and beardeds, corn snakes and balls, tanks of FBTs and buckets and boxes of turtles left by my facilities back door overnight. A veiled chameleon in a stapled paper bag in December.

So, thats where in coming from. No need to be offended, if it doesn't apply.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> Sorry man, just sayin.
> 
> I have seen it all for many years, Leos and beardeds, corn snakes and balls, tanks of FBTs and buckets and boxes of turtles left by my facilities back door overnight. A veiled chameleon in a stapled paper bag in December.
> 
> So, thats where in coming from. No need to be offended, if it doesn't apply.


Kmc, that sucks. I'm sorry you've had to see that. I'm sure it is hard not to freak out when you have memories like that.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Thanks Socrates I appreciate that.


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