# The Mystery Behind the Shyness of the “Blue and Black” Auratus



## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

This thread is about possible reasons why Blue and Black Auratus are so shy.
A little less then a year ago I got into the hobby with a trio of 9mo OTW BB Auratus.
They came from a friend’s colony of 8, and out of a 30G tank. He told me they might be shy, because he never sees them. I took them home and set up a simple 10G tank with five plants from Lowes and a coco hut, no background, no hardscaping, no pond, no leaf liter. They never hid, and they continue to be as bold as my Leucomelas. 
After a year neither I nor my friend came up with any eggs or breeding behavior. So in an effort to breed them I picked up the reaming 5 BB Auratus and their tank from my friend last week. This is what the tank looked like. GS and peat background with 4 small pieces of Malaysian drift wood. Two planted pieces of drift wood on the floor. A sloping terrain with small corner pond. Moderately planted with pothos, about 6 bromeliads, java moss, riccia fluitans. selingia, peperomia, Panamanian ficus, oak leaf ficus, etc. there was also large leaf litter under all of those plants. This tank was the model image of a healthy looking viv. 
Sure enough, the frogs were all hiding, just as he described. What they would all do is hide under the same piece Malaysian drift wood on the floor. When I removed the one piece, they immediately went under the second piece of drift wood on the floor. After removing both pieces of drift wood on the floor, they scattered. A day latter I went in to collect the frogs so I could pair them off. One was wedged head first between a piece of drift wood and the background. The second was sitting up on a piece of drift wood hiding under a philodendron leaf, a third was under a clump of selingia and rotting leafs, 4th and 5th are still MIA after a week. These frogs were absolutely cryptic. 
All frogs are now paired off, 3 pair in 10G tanks furnished the same as the 10G described above, and the 4th pair still in that 30G tank. The results with the new pairs were the same as my first experience with these frogs, bold. My friend’s old frogs from the 30G will even climb on the glass, or stand in open ground in their new 10Gs.
What was different in our setups? Humidity, tank size, leaf litter, plant types, hardsacping, # of frogs. Did all of these factors play a role in the shyness exhibited in these frogs? Not humidity, we both used solid non-vented tops, so our humidity was both 100%. Size, his tank with its drift wood background had 3x the floor space of my original setup, but the 10G frogs use all of their space; where as the 30G frogs use only a fraction of that volume, so I say tank size did not play a factor. Leaf litter plays a direct role; the more leaf liter in the tank the more they are apt to use it as a last resort hiding space. I have yet to put leaf litter in my 10g tanks, but I predict that if/when I do they will hide under it. I feel that plant types play the same role as leaf litter does when it comes to hiding spaces. Lots of broad low lying leafs like pothos and philodendrons or mats of vegetation will create the same effect as leaf litter. The number of frogs in a viv has to play a factor in visibility, but as far as I can tell only because the more frogs you have the better your odds are of seeing one. The frogs at some times group in both the 30g and 10g tanks and at other times they don’t, but the only place where they group are when they are under hardscaping like drift wood or coco huts. Hardscaping had to be the biggest factor in the shyness of my friends and my BB Auratus. It was clear that all of the frogs favored the drift wood in the 30g tank, and it’s still a common place for me to find them in the 10g tanks. About 1/3 of each frogs day is spent under the coco hut in the 10Gs.
My summation; I have a lot of theories that I listed, and need to try replicating some of those conditions found in the 30g tank into my new 10g tanks to validate how true they are. If your Blue and Black frogs are shy first try removing any hid spots that you can’t see under, such as drift wood, plant leafs growing on the ground, and even reduce the size of the leaves you use in your litter. Coco huts and bromeliads provide hid spots for the frogs to retreat to at night, but will still give you the opportunity to monitor and view your frogs. 
Now who’s got anything to add? Together were going to solve the mystery behind the shyness of the “Blue and Black” Auratus!


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I always found that, if they had a canopy of leaves such as pothos a couple inches off the ground they felt more secure and were out more often. Cork leaned towards the back of the tank would allow you to see undere the cork they`d usually hang out under.


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Good ideas but I have a few concerns.

I believe you are suggesting with less hiding spaces they are more bold correct?

If so perhaps they aren't hiding because these spaces aren't provided, wouldn't this lead to very stressed out frogs because they couldn't "retreat". Making them more bold by removing their hiding places might be putting an unnatural strain on these frogs that isn't required.

Just some thoughts..

justin


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

i know this is backwards advice, but yes, i am sugesting that removing certain hiding places will make the frogs more bold, and at least allow you to view them.

i realise that removing all the possable places for a frog to go is seriouly going to stress a frog out and i don't want anyone to do that. i know that removing their favorite place to hid has the potential to add some stress to them, but if you are carful to provide places where they feel safe but are still visable then you can have the best of both worlds. coco huts and broms are awesome for this. believe me, frogs in a well planted tank can become invisable if they want to.

it can also be unhealthy for a frog to spend all of its time hiding. an active frog will hunt, potentialy breed, and at the very least get a good workout. if a frog in that 30G tank were to become sick it would be dead before i knew there was anything wrong, and its quite possible that i only have one in there now, i just don't know.

also i can tell you that if girth is a sine of good health then the frogs that lived in the original 10G for 10+ months were healthier then the frogs in the 30g tank. im sure feeding had something to do with it, but the frogs in the 10g were absolutly fat while the 30G frogs just had a healthy size.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

The problem with your theory of removing hardscape and leaf litter to "make them bold" is that they probably aren't comfortable in that scenario. In the larger tank the frogs were not hiding to be annoying, they were hiding where they found it most comfortable. You noted that the tank had broms in it and you recommend adding broms into the less decorated viv for cover. Clearly in the larger viv they found more comfort in the driftwood then they did in broms. Making them less comfortable to be able to see them seems counter productive to the well being of the frogs and breeding. It's quite possible that with some rearranging of decos in the larger viv that it could be made to where the frogs are more viewable even in hiding. It's quite possible that improper hardscaping is the only thing at fault in the larger tank. Blue and blacks are known to be more shy by nature, not hardscaping. They do get more bold with age and it's just something that keepers just need to keep in mind when deciding to keep them. It just seems unfair to the frogs to provide them with less comfort areas to try and force them into the open. Just my opinion and your experiments should be pretty interesting.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Great observations Dylan.

Thanks for taking the time to post your findings. It's posts like this that are benefital to everyone but especially the new guys.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

I was apt to believe that the more hiding spots availible the bolder the frogs were. I have a pair of super blues in a 18" cube zoomed tank and they are extremely bold! ( I know they are not the same as blue and blacks) The tank is planted with ferns and moss and has brazill nut pods scattered thru out the tank. When I open up the tank they are out and about and practically eat the ff's as they hit the ground!!! I that as long as the frogs know they can hide at any moment that they feel the need to, that they feel safer. I have to hold my hand infront of them when I mist or they jump out to explore. They are kept in a more heavily trafficked room than my other vivs. Maybe they are just used to activity around their viv? Just my 2 cents.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I dont think anyone pointed out(I just skimmed) that newly moved frogs, either from one owner to another or just from one tank to another tend to revert back to being shy for awhile. They may even have to learn all over again that its safe to come out when u are in and out of the room, all while trying to adapt to a new environment...some take awhile, especially a naturally shy morph. Group dynamics and the particular personality of a frog are also factors.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

basshummper said:


> it can also be unhealthy for a frog to spend all of its time hiding. an active frog will hunt, potentialy breed, and at the very least get a good workout. if a frog in that 30G tank were to become sick it would be dead before i knew there was anything wrong, and its quite possible that i only have one in there now, i just don't know.


It's impossible to know that the hiding characteristic is unhealthy unless you've studied what this particular morphs habits are in the wild. If your providing them options for cover and open space in your viv and they're choosing cover then your probably seeing their natural tendency. It's just hard to say without studying the particular morph in it's wild environment.



basshummper said:


> also i can tell you that if girth is a sine of good health then the frogs that lived in the original 10G for 10+ months were healthier then the frogs in the 30g tank. im sure feeding had something to do with it, but the frogs in the 10g were absolutly fat while the 30G frogs just had a healthy size.


Again, it's hard to say if the fat frog is healthier or not. If it's like humans then your frogs could be overweight and the skinnier frogs are more healthy. There is just too many variables at this point to know.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> I dont think anyone pointed out(I just skimmed) that newly moved frogs, either from one owner to another or just from one tank to another tend to revert back to being shy for awhile. They may even have to learn all over again that its safe to come out when u are in and out of the room, all while trying to adapt to a new environment...some take awhile, especially a naturally shy morph. Group dynamics and the particular personality of a frog are also factors.


great points dave, and so true. i forgot to empahzise that im comenting on established frog groups. after my 3 frogs had settled in a year ago they still continued to be active and bold. while my friends frogs for the year he had them were in a perminant state of hiding. remind you all that my frogs came from my friend so infact all of these frogs are siblings. yet two oposite ends of the spectrum of boldness were exhibited.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

Tim, I agree with you on both of your points. 

I feal the need to defend myself on this thread because I know theres potential for added stress but realy no net gains for their well being with my sugestions.The driving reason for me manipulating my frogs boldness is my desire to breed these guys. i wanted to be able to view them as much as possible so that i can notice any courting, egg laying, or even egg eating(which shouldn't be a problem now with only pairs). if i don't get any signs of breeding i will change up my pairs. added viewability will alow me to expedite matching up sexed pairs. My frogs are coming up on two years old and i felt it was time to change something in order to get these guys breeding.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

As the previous owner of these frogs I really appreciate what Dylan is doing and the effort he has taken here. He has done a very good job outlining my experience with them and describing the tank itself. 

When I originally got the frogs I grew them up in a 20L with sphagnum and pothos. I moved them all to the 30 gal tank 6 months after I got them and soon after sold 3 of them to Dylan. He came by last week and bought the tank and the remaining 5 frogs. 
In a nutshell I found them to be incredibly shy but my main point of reference is Tincs, which are far from shy. I have my own ideas on their shyness:
1. The tank was filled with hiding spots which I put in on purpose because of what i had read about Auratus. I was not overly concerned with being able to see them and specifically built the tank that way.
2. I do think they used the whole tank (I would see poop in the broms, higher pieces of driftwood, on the glass), both horizontal and vertical space, but would hide when i came into the frog room. I had the tank on wall shelving that was bolted to my basement stairs for support. So every time I lumbered down the stairs there was undoubtedly some vibration, which they could have learned to associate with me entering the room. 

I also spent less time viewing them, and being around them than I think Dylan will. My tanks are not in a high traffic area and this may have contributed to their shyness. I think it is safe to say that they will get more attention now/observation than I was able to give them. 

I also understand the comments/concerns about limited hiding spots but I would not let that derail the point of this thread. Dylan is very conscientious, knowledgeable, and in all honesty will be providing better care for the frogs than I did. If he sees any issues he will be able to quickly identify them and return the frogs to the larger tank or do whatever is needed to fix the problem. It will be interesting to see if the frogs placed in completely different environments will display different behaviors than the frogs in the larger tank over the long term.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Good info Marty.

I was reading the new write up on dendrobates.org earlier and came across an interesting description of these guys in the wild. 



> *Close to the Santa Maria morph a pure blue morph is found along smaller streams near the village of Calobre. Frogs of this population could be easily distinguished from other blue populations by smaller size of 30 to 33 mm SVL and the dark blue pattern of bands and blotches on a black background. This morph is the smallest blue morph and very common in terrarium keeping. This morph has been considered as in danger of extinction by Heselhaus. Actually, this morph lives in a dry and cleared area only in small patches along small streams, but the populations seems to be stable. Because of the shyness of this population and the hidden way of life, the number of individuals is probably underestimated. In our opinion this morph is vulnerable but not in danger of extinction. *


That last section pretty much echoes what hobbyist have found when putting them in a viv that allows them to hide.


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## ahinkle (Oct 15, 2007)

mongo77 said:


> I was apt to believe that the more hiding spots availible the bolder the frogs were. I have a pair of super blues in a 18" cube zoomed tank and they are extremely bold! ( I know they are not the same as blue and blacks) The tank is planted with ferns and moss and has brazill nut pods scattered thru out the tank. When I open up the tank they are out and about and practically eat the ff's as they hit the ground!!! I that as long as the frogs know they can hide at any moment that they feel the need to, that they feel safer. I have to hold my hand infront of them when I mist or they jump out to explore. They are kept in a more heavily trafficked room than my other vivs. Maybe they are just used to activity around their viv? Just my 2 cents.


I am going a little outside the species here but I had similar results with heavily trafficked areas.

My imitators were shy to point where they would see movement and they would disappear in seconds. They were kept in their own frog room.

Well I moved for the summer and had to keep them in a common area where there was lots of movement and people walking about. For this period they were almost always seen and also heard more often.

After the summer I moved them back to the frog room and within days they went back to there completely shy behavior.

I propose that if "any" frog gets a constant form of movement around the cage that it should become to them just like the trees moving from wind in nature. 

As for the always hiding being a good thing, I am not so sure about that. To my knowledge the genra of these types of frogs are not evolved as sit and wait predators as a whole. These frogs are hunters, albeit cautious hunters, and should actively roam the territory for consumables.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong and/or just to go fly a kite!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

ahinkle said:


> I am going a little outside the species here but I had similar results with heavily trafficked areas.
> 
> My imitators were shy to point where they would see movement and they would disappear in seconds. They were kept in their own frog room.
> 
> ...


+1 on everything you wrote....


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

ahinkle said:


> I am going a little outside the species here but I had similar results with heavily trafficked areas.
> 
> My imitators were shy to point where they would see movement and they would disappear in seconds. They were kept in their own frog room.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on the movements around the viv helping to "numb" them to things around them.

As for the hidden all the time....it's not that they are hiding all the time. They are just hiding when people are around. In the example shown with this particular thread, the original owner said that there was evidence of action from the frogs.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

Thanks for the vote of confidence Marty and the many too kind complements. 

About foot traffic, my original three were set up in the living room, with a house hold of 5, so there was a lot of foot traffic. Walking by the tank never seemed to bother them. Like Marty and others have said I too feel that if only a limited exposure to people shy darts will bolt at the feel of footsteps, and i have experianced this with my vents. currently all my BB Auratus are in my bedroom, but I spend a lot of time in there as well and they are still exhibiting a continued boldness.


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## morselchip (Jul 17, 2008)

As a relative newbie working with the b&b, I have to agree with the added movement helping to relax them. I picked up a small group of them fairly recently (3&3 in 2 rubbermaids) and had to separate out 2 very skinny ones. In order to see them, I moved them to their own 10g tanks, with plants and coco huts. We did the same with another pair that was looking well. The pair has since produced eggs for us (and is going back to their original home) and the ones I separated and kept a close eye on are noticably more bold than the ones that never had one-on-one. I was actually thinking of posting this separately beforehand because my fiancee can tell the one I fattened up just from the boldness! Now I won't suggest that people split up their b&b's... but working with them a little extra makes a huuuge difference!


My 2 cents... or dollars depending on how long winded that was....
Becky


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

Tim your right, as Marty said i neglected to mention that there was a number of feces throughout the tank. i had only personaly monitored the frogs for two days as a colony in their 30G. in that two days there were times when i snuck up on the tank tring to jump these guys. nothing. they had to be coming out once and a while, but when, i will never know.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

Becky that’s awesome! I’m glad you have that comparison with your two tanks. That’s a good piece of evidence. Maybe I am completely off the mark, and the biggest reason of all for the boldness of my first group of BB Auratus was the change in traffic. I know Marty was trying to press that idea upon me and it had just slipped my mind.


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