# Archerfish?



## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

Hey everyone,

Trying not to sound as stupid as possible here, what could be some of the pros and cons about keeping archerfish with my darts? My tank is 6 feet long and has about 20 gallons of water in the water section with a huge manzanita piece hanging above it that was made by hydrophyte. 

Really I'm just nervous that they will eat the dart frogs, but they are so versatile and the fish are small so what are those chances? I would think it would be awesome to put crickets on the manzanita and watch the fish show off. I've read in numerous places that certain species could live for several years not exceeding 4 inches and living in full fresh water, so besides that, are they safe to keep with darts? 

I will have a group of Chazutas in here when the weather warms up. Also, if anyone wants to see some of the articles I read about archerfish being safe in freshwater or the types mentioned, let me know. 


Pics: sorry they're if they're sideways I'm not understanding how to flip them.

Thanks a lot!!

Pic 1: I just took this, it's what it will be like if I added the fish.







Pic 2: full tank shot I just took to show how much space the frogs will have.







Pic 3: water picture, it has another half inch in it now.







Pic 4: raw outlook on the manzanita piece from a few months ago. 








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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

Pic 4 was wrong, let's see if this works

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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

You would have to do some digging to find anything freshwater for sale. The common banded archerfish certainly would not be able to inhabit the tank. If you want something to take up the surface portion of the tank, perhaps look into some of the small halfbeaks or killiefish.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

Is it because of the size of the fish? I have a number of fish in the tank now so it would be a matter of just switching what I have for archerfish. I also found a species called t. Lorentzi but I can't find much information about it

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## Rseb1203 (Aug 14, 2013)

Archer fish usaully get a good size. African Butterfly fish are very slow moving top water ambush fish. Very neat looking too. Just aggressive


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## skarasek (Mar 2, 2012)

> The common banded archerfish certainly would not be able to inhabit the tank.


I've seen (and kept, before I knew what I was doing) many brackish species, including archers, for over a year in full freshwater with no visible harm, it just shortens their life from what I've read. So doable, just not advisable if you know better. 

While the archers might not be big enough (yet) to swallow a dart, that won't keep them from trying to eat anything that hits the top of the water. I've kept enough archers over the years to know they hit things at the surface before thinking about what it is. And if you have a few, they'll all try to take a bite of what all the other fish are trying to eat. So even though they won't be able to swallow it, they could potentially drown it, damage a leg, or stress the frogs out.

It would be a neat display, though. I've always wanted an archer/lizard display, just haven't had the space for what I have in mind. If you try it, keep us posted with any issues you do or don't run into!


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## skarasek (Mar 2, 2012)

> African Butterfly fish are very slow moving top water ambush fish. Very neat looking too. Just aggressive


They're neat fish, I've had a few for a couple years. But they're not a a 'wow factor' fish like archers spitting and jumping at a cricket. They really don't move except chasing food, and don't even look like a fish haha. They'd fit your system well, you just won't get the same awesomeness as with an archer...but neither will anything else, really.

Another topwater fish I enjoy is a golden wonder killie. Cheap and common, but in the right display make for a nice group fish. A group of 10 would spend a lot of time watching flies and jumping over each other to get to them. And I wouldn't worry about them being able to harm a frog. Might be a nice substitute if you don't try archers


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## Rseb1203 (Aug 14, 2013)

Was trying to think of something small lol. Killies are great. Featherfin Rainbow/Celebes Rainbow/Peacock Gudeon/ OR OR OR Singapore wood shrimp.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I might just try the idea of the archers. Maybe just 2 and mix with something suitable (maybe the golden wonder Killie or African butterfly fish?) 

I'm not particularly nervous of harming my frogs because I've had a huge group of vents in there and they never went too close to the water besides the occasional up on the glass 2 feet above it. The piece of manzanita in the tank isn't too easy to get on to either. 

What do you guys think of mixing with one of the other named species? Also, do you guys have any type of archerfish that you think would be more suitable for my tank than another? 

Thanks For Everyone's input!

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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I still don't think this is a good idea. Why bother going through the trouble of providing excellently suited conditions for the frogs, but not care about the suitability for the fish? Even previously in this thread it was noted that it reduces the lifespan of the archerfish. As far as I'm aware, T. jaculatrix is the only species you're likely to find for sale.

If you want archers, do a proper tank for them. Don't try to shoehorn them into something that's unsuitable.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

This is my favorite fish to occupy the upper portion of the water column, The Marbled Hatchetfish.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

dravenxavier said:


> I still don't think this is a good idea. Why bother going through the trouble of providing excellently suited conditions for the frogs, but not care about the suitability for the fish? Even previously in this thread it was noted that it reduces the lifespan of the archerfish. As far as I'm aware, T. jaculatrix is the only species you're likely to find for sale.
> 
> If you want archers, do a proper tank for them. Don't try to shoehorn them into something that's unsuitable.


I understand what you're saying, but like I asked before, what is the issue with the tank? Of course I mean not including the fact that it may shorten it's life span a little bit. 

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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> This is my favorite fish to occupy the upper portion of the water column, The Marbled Hatchetfish.


Wow!! That's amazing. 

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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

An imitator seems to be about the same size as a large cricket... what makes you sure that the archer fish won't eat the frogs?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

An archer will have no issue eating a thumbnail. 

You barely have enough water there for a few small fish anyway, let alone archers which can grow quite large. They would very quickly outgrow that small space. You wouldn't be just shortening their lifespan a bit, you'ld shorten it significantly if left in there.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

And don't get me wrong, I admire your enthusiasm, I just think it will be difficult to execute. Stick with frogs and a few smaller more suitable fish.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Do you have a filter or anything in there, is the water being circulated?


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

Pretty awesome looking tank, and one of my favorite fish! Archerfish would not survive in there unfortunately though, sorry to be a bummer. 

20 gallons won't be even close to enough even for a young fish, which are not too hardy captives even in ideal conditions. I have seen archers push 11 inches... even for one were talking at least a well filtered 60 gallons just to keep up with the bioload, probably more like 100 with a depth of at least 10 inches to give it space to swim. They are super cool, but certainly a bit more of an advanced fish. This is coming from someone who has plenty of fish/frog tanks, and experience with archers.

As already mentioned, I would go with either some marbled hatchetfish, pearl danios, or some small rasbora species. All are pretty nice looking, and would thrive in a tank like that.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Butterflyfish and golden wonder killifish are just as bad of choices for this display as well-in regards to frog safety. Both could easily swallow thumbnail dartfrogs and would do so with little hesitation. I've kept golden wonder killifish and used to feed my pair skipper butterflies, moths, and other goodies regularly-they would leap up and snatch the hapless creatures as they buzzed against the glass top of the tank.

If you want a fish that would potentially show interesting behaviors I would reccomend certain smaller species of Rivulus. These guys think they are amphibians. Some are reported to regularly hang out on emersed vegetation in the wild(or on the underside of a glass lid/on top of some floating plants in captivity) and then flop back in the water when alarmed. A few species also will leave the water and hop around on the forest floor. One species(Kryptolebias marmoratus) has been reported to "climb trees" being found inside termite galleries in tree snags in mangrove forests.(indeed one method of collecting these fish is to split logs laying on the bank and look for them packed end to end in termite galleries) I'd get onto the killitalk mailing list and ask about suitable species and sources-you can probably find one that is biotopically correct-I recall keeping a few peruvian natives.

Hatchetfish may be an ok choice but I wonder if they would commit suicide by jumping out of the water section. While they can "fly" by beating their "wings" with those powerful chest muscles I bet they are not very coordinated on land-they might not make it back to the water section. 

I really like lampeyes(Aplocheilichthys) and ricefish(Oryzias) and think they would be great for just about any paludarium-they are tiny, prolific when happy, and though they look rather nondescript when happy their eyes light up with an unreal blue glow. A school of them amongst some driftwood in lightly tannin stained water is simply breathtaking


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Endler's livebearers are another nice choice.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

Thanks for everyone's replies! I guess it's a better a choice to stick to what I have and what you all have recommended 

The reason why I wanted archers over anything else is because I really saw them as the "wow-factor" fish and thought they could spice up the water section a little bit, but an unneeded fish is definitely not worth the life of the frogs in my eyes. 

@pubfiction: I have a filter in the drainage section, 3 water pumps and a self created filter under one of the waterfalls. 

Thanks everyone and I will make sure I keep you guys posted about how it all turns out on a new thread!

Nick

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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Well if you have filters and keep the water quality good you might pull off using the hatchet fish. Of course if you spook them they might jump onto the land.


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

I think Copella arnoldi would be a cool one for a paludarium. Their breeding behavior would be something to see on the leaf of a large philo close to the aquatic portion's edge.


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## punctata (Jan 31, 2011)

I would just stick with small shrimp. They add movement to the water and are really neat to watch.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I've seen a 3 inch gold fish inhale the leg of a decent sized African dwarf frog, so I definitely wouldn't do thumbs.

If someone where going to attempt to mix darts and archer fish, I'd go with the biggest species of darts and the smallest species of available archer fish *(*which would probably be the smallscale archerfish (Toxotes microlepis)*)
*

This is the project that you would probably wanna emulate and then modify to better suit dart frogs...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52841-300gal-paludarium-project-15.html

Here is a pic from that thread...









If I was going to attempt an Archer/dart mix I would basically wanna build something like that tank, only twice as long, and have the second half be the terrestrial area. So your tank is kinda similar, but even Toxotes microlepis gets nearly 6in long, so that is still big enough to probably swallow a full grown terribilis's leg, and at least traumatize it and your water area is only big enough to support 1 maybe 2, maybe none (no experience with them myself). Though they do sound like they are more freshwater then brackish... so that is good.

Basically anyone willing to try this is going to have to be ok with putting the frogs at quite a bit more risk then they normally would be, and that is something most here won't be comfortable with. 

I'd have to keep Toxotes on their own for awhile to get a feel for them and how dangerous they may be to the frogs, and have a huge tank that limited the chances for an incident between fish and frog. If any incidents did happen then I'd seriously rethink the frogs and probably go with larger geckos or something, maybe bigger tree frogs.

Oh and here is another past thread regarding this idea...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...allon-archerfish-paludarium-frogs-viable.html


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

tank looks great!! 
Id stick with a few shrimp and come cool smaller fish that wont be able to harm the frogs..
although I know absolutely nothing about fish..


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Also you'd be compromising archerfish health unless you kept them in brackish water.

Besides-with killifish like this, who needs archers?
http://www.itrainsfishes.net/content/laimosemion_xiphidius_001.php


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Dendrobait said:


> Also you'd be compromising archerfish health unless you kept them in brackish water.
> 
> Besides-with killifish like this, who needs archers?
> It Rains Fishes - Species Description


There seems to be some debate about that on the fish forums, including what would probably be the most suitable Archer...*Toxotes Microlepis*. Several anecdotal reports that this fish favors freshwater over brackish. 

Toxotes Microlepis - Oddball's institute - Tropical Fish Forums
Archers - Brackish Forum - Tropical Fish Forums (Post #8 is relevant)

A slightly brackish water area might be possible with frogs. I'd assume they would stay out if it made them uncomfortable, and my guess is a quick dip probably would harm them... but you'd likely have to keep your pond area completely separate from the substrate area/false bottom. No sharing of the water reservoir like I do in my pond/false bottoms.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Interesting Dave. It is of note that no breeding success with these has been had yet. Does not eliminate the size issue. Large arboreal lizards like Calotes may be a better choice for a paludarium with archers. 

Brackish water would be a risky thing for darts but yes a seperate reservoir would help. You'd probably also want frequent misting yet at the same time be sure the salinity does not jump around too much-this would require a fairly large water volume. I know frogs exposed to saltwater die quite quickly-within 10 minutes or so from what I saw. I know at least pumilio have been observed within feet of saltwater in the wild-they somehow know not to go in I suppose? 

Now that'd be a neat exhibit though-a mangrove forest edge paludarium. Perhaps some killifish(Adinia xenica maybe), some upside-down jellyfish(Cassiopeia sp.) in a shallow sandy lagoon bordered by mangroves and some other plants. Maybe maritime/mourning geckos(lepidodactylus lugubris), or just brown anoles. I don't think I'd be willing to risk darts though.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm in the process of getting a cube tank (100g or more) so maybe these are some ideas to take advantage of!! If I was to potentially pull this off, I would do what Dendro Dave recommended and do terribilis with toxotes. I really have to think though so don't take my word for anything! 

I think that there are ways to definitely work this out if it is tested very carefully. I think a separate reservoir is sounding like a pretty decent idea, but exposing darts to salt could really do some damage. I would think that there would be some type of visual barrier to physically separate the fish from the frogs. I really love the mangrove idea it seems simple and you could plant a lot on it. 

Any other ideas?

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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I believe this is Doug's picture on Instagram. If this type of idea was expanded on a bit I think this could potentially work. Of course there would need to be more land but I like the general idea of it. 

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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm joining that club pretty quickly 

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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Dendrobait said:


> Interesting Dave. It is of note that no breeding success with these has been had yet. Does not eliminate the size issue. Large arboreal lizards like Calotes may be a better choice for a paludarium with archers.
> 
> Brackish water would be a risky thing for darts but yes a separate reservoir would help. You'd probably also want frequent misting yet at the same time be sure the salinity does not jump around too much-this would require a fairly large water volume. I know frogs exposed to saltwater die quite quickly-within 10 minutes or so from what I saw. I know at least pumilio have been observed within feet of saltwater in the wild-they somehow know not to go in I suppose?
> 
> Now that'd be a neat exhibit though-a mangrove forest edge paludarium. Perhaps some killifish(Adinia xenica maybe), some upside-down jellyfish(Cassiopeia sp.) in a shallow sandy lagoon bordered by mangroves and some other plants. Maybe maritime/mourning geckos(lepidodactylus lugubris), or just brown anoles. I don't think I'd be willing to risk darts though.


Agreed, lizards or maybe a terrestrial turtle/tropical tortoise would work Something with a less porous skin. It would be interesting from a scientific view the amount of brackish water exposure a typical frog could handle.


Quick search found this..
*
Water salinity based on dissolved salts
Fresh water < 0.05% 
Brackish water	0.05–3%
Saline water 3-5%
Brine > 5%*

_*"Technically, brackish water contains between 0.5 and 30 grams of salt per litre—more often expressed as 0.5 to 30 parts per thousand (ppt or ‰). Thus, brackish covers a range of salinity regimes and is not considered a precisely defined condition. It is characteristic of many brackish surface waters that their salinity can vary considerably over space and/or time."*_

So you'd wanna find the minimal acceptable level of salt content for your brackish fish species and work from there. Pumilio from near the coast or costal area auratus, or another large dart from around the coast might have evolved more tolerance to salt content. Still in the case of pumilio there is the size issue.

Here is one instance of frog evolving to tolerate brackish water.
Crab-eating frog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



reptiles12 said:


> I'm in the process of getting a cube tank (100g or more) so maybe these are some ideas to take advantage of!! If I was to potentially pull this off, I would do what Dendro Dave recommended and do terribilis with toxotes. I really have to think though so don't take my word for anything!
> 
> I think that there are ways to definitely work this out if it is tested very carefully. I think a separate reservoir is sounding like a pretty decent idea, but exposing darts to salt could really do some damage. I would think that there would be some type of visual barrier to physically separate the fish from the frogs. I really love the mangrove idea it seems simple and you could plant a lot on it.
> 
> ...


Any dart is going to be at risk from fish over 4 inches long probably (maybe 3). So that issue still exists. But you could go with a rimless aquarium, build a glass top that fit inside the rim, and set that in a large vivarium and some holes drilled for plumbing and a feeding port.

It could be done to be fairly well hidden by building part of your shore line in the tank, and on the other side of it so that when the viv and aquarium were combined it was looked uniform. Building some small rock/wood features that sit on the glass top of the aquarium but also help form some of the surround viv scape would help blend everything probably.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

There are a couple of brackish water snakes-but they need to drink FW and will happily eat the archerfish.

I still think if you want to keep darts and add weird fish Rivulus would be the best bet. 

The crabeating frog=great example of convergent evolution(in this case with Elasmobranchs which also use urea to boster blood solute levels)


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## Reptileguy101 (Sep 1, 2012)

I don't think this is a good idea. Archers alone can get quite large and need 40+ gallons of water for just a couple. My pick would be some kind of nice guppy or endler. Simple and cheap


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