# how important is air circulation??



## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

So i am curious as to how important air circulation is in a viv and what are some of the benefits of it. I have a 36gal setup with no fans or anything and no mesh or anything. only a a few holes to for little air to get out. Now the reason i did this is because i am having a hard time keeping the humidity level up and i am working on a fogger for the viv now since the humidity wont stay consistent enough and where it needs to be at. any tips or tricks you would like to share would be great! Thanks in advance!


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

What type of frogs do you have?


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## 31drew31 (Nov 14, 2010)

Air circulation is mostly for the plants. I find plants grow better with a little breeze. Otherwise just opening and closing the tank once a day is plenty of fresh air. A 1" vent across the whole viv is usually what is used to supply fresh air.


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

I have Leucs in the tank


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I use a standard screen top lid covered tightly with "Saran" wrap. I use tape to hold it in place. A cheap "rig" admittedly, but humidity stays very high, and that helps to maintain ambient heat within the tank too. My tank only gets fresh air at feedings and mistings, which, as said, is plenty of fresh air. I know that consistently high humidity is required for breeding in most species(as well as plenty of extra food...), so I would recommend very high humidity, and less humidity as a scheduled sequence to help cycle your frogs. Maybe 3 months of heavy misting( and extra food), and 3 months of once daily misting(and moderate feedings)... 

Where are you keeping the viv? If it is within close proximity to a heat vent, and is relatively open air topped, than that will cause rapid drying of the tank, and make humidity a constant challenge for you...

Hope to have helped!

JBear


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Where darts are concerned air circulation is mostly for the plants. With tree frogs things may be a little different.

Don't use a fogger (especially if you're considering using it inside the tank), but use a mister. On top of your screen you can saran wrap it, or you can get a cheap piece of glass to place over the screen top. Either method works fine (I use the glass top method and my frogs are just fine being sprayed once every other week during the dry season).


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I think we are potentially underestimating the benefits of air circulation for the frogs. Sure they survive in fairly sealed environments, but more air circulation means healthier conditions. Less chance for some nasty stuff to take hold and go nuts in the tank, less chances of respiratory issues developing also, and it as already stated it generally benefits the plants too. Plus it is nice to have a tank that doesn't have so much condensation all the time that you actually see the frogs..so why not have some ventilation?

As for the fogger don't rely on that to keep humidity up. Its mostly a visual effect since you can't run it all the time without wearing it out and/or constant water refills. Misting is the workhorse you should rely on. Though in a tank that is mostly sealed with moist substrate its going to be pretty hard for it not to be humid enough.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> Plus it is nice to have a tank that doesn't have so much condensation all the time that you actually see the frogs..


Actually, I've found condensation to be nice, specifically with shier, easily stressed frogs like my benedicta. I've seen these frogs far more willing to come out of hiding _and_ far more willing to breed regularly when the front of the tank has high amounts of condensation.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Actually, I've found condensation to be nice, specifically with shier, easily stressed frogs like my benedicta. I've seen these frogs far more willing to come out of hiding _and_ far more willing to breed regularly when the front of the tank has high amounts of condensation.


Thats true, I've seen the same thing...but I want my cake and to eat it too


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Where darts are concerned air circulation is mostly for the plants. With tree frogs things may be a little different.
> 
> Don't use a fogger (especially if you're considering using it inside the tank), but use a mister. On top of your screen you can saran wrap it, or you can get a cheap piece of glass to place over the screen top. Either method works fine (I use the glass top method and my frogs are just fine being sprayed once every other week during the dry season).


well I was going to use a humidifier for the fogger not the ones you by at the pet store. I read about the dangers of those. Well i bought a glass top that fits perfectly over the whole top of the tank and seals it on. now there is a piece that i could take out that would allow me to build a screen area on but i think it would be to big and would let out to much air.

well heres the other thing too, my tank was set up for a freshwater planted tank. i built the hood and light system myself and there are 5 36inch builds underneath with 2 ballast that run the light. the ballast get wicked hot and i think those are what is heating up my tank and not allowing the humidity to say up. right now the humidity is usually around 60% and the temperature is usually around 80. I live in AZ and its winter time and my temps are already to high.(I think anyways) and its only going to get worse in the summer. So I guess one of my other questions i've come up with is do i need that many light bulbs on my tank or can i be okay with just 3??? one of the ballast is a 2 light bulb and the other ballast is a 3 light bulb. In case you dont know what that means, it means that you can only run that many bulbs on that one ballast. I would really like to get this under control as soon as possible. 

DendroDave you said i should rely on misting more than a fogger. The only thing with that is is that i have found out that the way my tank is set up and how i built the hood misting with a bottle is kind of hard. are there any other misters i can use?? Would a bug sprayer/weed killer sprayer bottle with the long hose and nossil work better? with a long skinny hose instead of trying to get a whole bottle in the tank would be much easier. I would really like to set up a misting system on the tank but i really really dont have the money right now since i just got a stupid ticket thats going to cost me an arm and leg..

Any more input would be break. thank you all for all your works and help on this. I will add air circulation now to the tank as dendrodave had made a good point about bacteria and such being able to grow easier in such isolated conditions. That is a very good point.

sorry for the crazy long response but i just want to get this working right again because it did keep a humidity level nice at first but when i started to run the light longer it changed and i havent been able to get the humidity level back up. here are some pictures so you can see what i am dealing with and get a better idea.


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## Froggywv (Aug 9, 2010)

I would take out the 3 bulbs, just run the two bulb ballist. Really, the lights are for the plants, only, not the frogs. See where two lights get you. Also, lowes has these lights called "cool light" they are flourescents that don't produce heat. I use them on my tanks and don't have an issue.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ya something with a hose will work. Really you just need to be able to open it enough to get the nozzle in. Maybe an inch...and it doesn't have to be just a fine mist, you can adjust the nozzle to give you a stream or coarser spray to hit hard to reach places or whatever. Whats important is all that water will evaporate off leaves, the ground, rocks etc...etc... A fine mist may give you an instant burst of humidity sure, but its all that water that lands on stuff then slowly evaporates away that does most of the humidity work over the course of the day. Plus the water that is absorbed into the soil kinda recharges its moisture levels and that moist soil along with plant respiration is what takes care of most of the workload as far as keeping the humidity up through out the days, weeks, months, years. 

I find it hard to believe that your humidity is only 60% in a tank that is nearly sealed. I think there is a good chance your gauge is wrong. Also make sure you measure at frog level, which is right above the substrate, up to mid tank level. Temp and humdity at the top of the tank isn't as important as mid to floor level. 

If you heat a nearly sealed tank, like you are afraid the ballasts are doing, there is a good chance that would actually increase your humidity because its going to cause water to evaporate out of the soil faster and in a sealed tank with no place to go really it will just build till its basically 100%. Looking at that nearly sealed top and the way your viv is put together there is no way it isn't maintaining adequate humidity unless your soil is bone dry. That gauge has got to be off, or you'd have to have ventilations strips and be running fans over that tank, which you don't have so it is basically impossible from what I see assuming the substrate is moist, and 1 or 2 good long mistings should handle that.


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

I know the lights are for the plants and i would like good growth. i really just need moderate light for the types of moss i am growing in the tank right now. 

Dave, Thats kind of what i was think. I thought my gauges might be off and there probably in the wrong spot being at the top of the tank. My frogs seem fine to they are out an about and everything so they seem okay with the way it is. It seems like anyways.

So would one of those bug/fertilizer sprayers work for misting then? Cuz my dad has 5 of them i think. haha i think all add a vent whole were i can place a fan that will blow through the hole through out the day on a timer to have fresh air through out the tank. If the bug sprayer works all probably try to figure out a way to rig it up so i can have the nozzle always in the tank and all i have to do is manual spray it from the bottle each day. 

Thank you all for the input! Helped out a lot!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

myersboy6 said:


> I know the lights are for the plants and i would like good growth. i really just need moderate light for the types of moss i am growing in the tank right now.
> 
> Dave, Thats kind of what i was think. I thought my gauges might be off and there probably in the wrong spot being at the top of the tank. My frogs seem fine to they are out an about and everything so they seem okay with the way it is. It seems like anyways.
> 
> ...


That should work, just be extremely careful to wash it out really well. Even small amounts of left over poisons or chemicals could impact the frog or at least eggs/tads


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

yeah i went out to the garage and found one. i have it sitting with hot water and soap in it. let it sit over night and then wash it out a bunch of times to make sure and then let it dry out completely before filling it up with water again.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

People seem to be thinking that air circulation and ventilation are the same thing: they're not. Lifting the lid and letting in new air, having gaps that allow in/out air, etc. is ventilation...not the same as air circulation. Air circulation refers to movement in the air column within the enclosure.

I would say that air circulation is beneficial and more important than we most likely realize, and for some species could be pretty critical, especially for some that may come from damp areas and don't appear to have the egg-wetting behaviors that others do...so you need to maintain a high humidity environment without it getting too soggy and stale. So air circulation within an enclosed humid environment would be very beneficial to allow the eggs to survive...whereas ventilation in such a situation would cause mass after mass of lost eggs.

Ventilation can also cause frogs to act unnaturally by creating periods of too low humidity and encouraging reclusive behaviour as they attempt to find humid microclimates under leaf litter, etc. Having a variety of microclimates is important, but extremes can be unhealthy.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

skylsdale said:


> People seem to be thinking that air circulation and ventilation are the same thing: they're not. Lifting the lid and letting in new air, having gaps that allow in/out air, etc. is ventilation...not the same as air circulation. Air circulation refers to movement in the air column within the enclosure.
> 
> I would say that air circulation is beneficial and more important than we most likely realize, and for some species could be pretty critical, especially for some that may come from damp areas and don't appear to have the egg-wetting behaviors that others do...so you need to maintain a high humidity environment without it getting too soggy and stale. So air circulation within an enclosed humid environment would be very beneficial to allow the eggs to survive...whereas ventilation in such a situation would cause mass after mass of lost eggs.
> 
> Ventilation can also cause frogs to act unnaturally by creating periods of too low humidity and encouraging reclusive behaviour as they attempt to find humid microclimates under leaf litter, etc. Having a variety of microclimates is important, but extremes can be unhealthy.


Good points. And I think you are right that a mostly sealed viv with internal fans may make for a more stable environment and seeing your frogs more. But I don't think unless you've done something horribly wrong and gotten lazy on misting a viv that is far to ventilated that normal weather changes will adversely effect the frogs. Even the tropics are cooler, less humid, and windier some days then others. So as long as you are in the green zone other then maybe not seeing the frogs quite as much its not much of an issue IMO as long as the system is set up to so that it won't go to far one way or the other and end up in the red. I think I may have just made it out to sound like some high wire balancing act, but really its not hard 

I would also point out though that while technically ventilation isn't the same as circulation, increased circulation goes hand in hand with increased ventilation. More air currents which are ever present even if subtle enough we don't notice them, will reach the viv with greater force through increased ventilation thus causing increased internal circulation.

My parents had a fireplace that opened into the living room and their bedroom, if you walked through the room door while the doors were open on both sides or even 1 side of the fireplace sometimes the change in air pressure was enough to cause smoke to billow out into the room. Air currents of course accompanied the change in air pressure, and were stirred just by the act of walking through the room but if it wasn't for the smoke you'd never have noticed, unless paying special attention. The more sealed a viv is the less susceptible it is to those outside forces, and of course the opposite holds true. 

As for which one is more important, thats a good question. My guess would be circulation too I think, but for me since you get both with ventilation and thats a heck of a lot easier then mounting a fan inside a tank, I just roll with that and its good enough IMO. A lot easier in smaller tanks too. I may get around to trying some internal circulation fans in a larger viv though. What I've done in my vivs to date though is get just enough ventilation that the glass is pretty much clear except if its humid outside, or at certain times of the day sometimes. Basically I try to get it right to the edge of fogging up, but not quite. When I mist they will generally fog up quickly and stay that way for at least an hour or 2. Having a thermostat that maintains a constant room temp within a 3-4 degree range kicking on heat or ac as needed to do so is helpful for finding and maintaining that balance  ...But I didn't always have that and still pulled it off to my satisfaction anyways. 

Where you place the ventilation can be important to. The same amount of ventilation at the front of the tank will do better at keeping the front glass clear then the same amount running across the back of the tank. I prefer front, since all I care about is the front glass being clear for viewing. The rest of the tank can fog up as much as it wants for all I care, and often it does at least in part. So I get away with less ventilation then someone else may need going along the back to keep their front glass clear...which may be enough to make the environment a little uncomfortable for the frogs in some weather conditions or climates. 

When I use fans, I favor having them blow over the tank, and not sucking air out of it...I'm afraid people are out there doing that and messing up their frogs environment, especially if they aren't on timers. I think the fan should pretty much always be blowing in, or over...not out. If you really know what you are doing and are careful to set it up right an in/out circulation system can work and may even be best, but for a lot of people especially newer people I think thats potentially dangerous for the frogs.


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