# Culturing Pea Aphids



## flyingkip

I was asked to make some sort of article/thread on how to culture pea Aphids since I was so enthousiastic about them.
They are a great food source, very healthy and you can grow them in better numbers in 2 weeks time then any other food source other then Flies maybe.

I've noticed my frogs seem to do extra good after I start feeding them again (I've had to startover a few times after my cultures crashed and I didn't get a new supply fast enough)


First thing you need to know is that this foodsource really needs a steady supply of new pea-plants. This is why you need to make new cultures every week. You simply can't skip 1 week or the cultures will most likely crash because the plants are sucked dry by the aphids.










Every friday I place dried pea's under water for 6-8h's untill they are completely soaked in water. You'll see them swell up.









After 6-8h's I take them out and place them on wet paper or another wet soil. 
The pea's need to be kept very moisture, but not wet or they'll mold.









To keep them moisture I put the lid on my cultures. Then I place them under light for 5-6days untill the pea's have roots and have an 0,5 to 1,5cm big stalk.

The only thing you need to do then is keep the soil moisture and don't let the plants dry out. The aphids will suck the plants dry so they'll need alot of water! 

With lid placed under a light source.









After 2days roots start to form.









After 5-6days the cultures are ready to be seeded with a few aphids. I keep the lid on for another 2days untill they've found the plants and stay on them.









Cultures after 8-9days, at this time I remove the lids and just keep the plants moisture and wait till they are packed with aphids.









In 1.5-2weeks the cultures are ready to be fed to your frogs. You can simply cut off the plants and throw them into your tanks, or you can place the cultures itself in the tank.


I'll some pictures from my cultures just before feeding.


If you have questions just post here. I'll try to check the reply's regulary.
(you probably will, telling somebody in person how to culture them is alot easier then writing it down..)


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## gary1218

Any pics of the aphids? How big do they get? Will the aphids eat away at the plants in the frog tank?

Thanks.


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## melas

very cool! thanks for posting this! now we just need to find some who has them over here in the US!


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## hexentanz

gary1218 said:


> Any pics of the aphids? How big do they get? Will the aphids eat away at the plants in the frog tank?
> 
> Thanks.


I've wondered this myself as well.


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## flyingkip

You can see some small aphids on the plants in the last picture; If you look at it in full size, those light green things on the plants.
And I haven't found 1 plant that has been affected by the aphids. Most of them get eaten and the others die within a few days (like flies). So I wouldn't worry about them harming any of your plants.


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## flyingkip

Apparently I can't edit my own initial post. So a mod will have to correct my incorrect BB code for the second last pict.


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## gary1218

OK, I see the little green guys. I guess this would be a way for the frogs to get their green vegetables 

Anybody know if they're available here in the states?


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## Dragas

*Corpus Callosum* posted these in the f2 histronicus thread. 



> Berkshire Biological - All Products/Aphids- 50
> 
> Procedure for Producing Pea Aphids
> 
> aphids as food


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## gary1218

GREAT!!! Thanks very much Dragas.


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## Julio

Mike and I have done Aphid cultures in teh past, they are species specific so make sure you are using the right beans for the right species of aphids, once you get them establish they will breed like crazy.


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## Corpus Callosum




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## iljjlm

Has anybody grown these plants in your vivarium? My thinking for doing this would be to keep the aphids that the frogs don't eat in one place. Similar to placing banana or oranges in our tanks for fruit flies. It would also keep the aphids off of your other plants, though they shouldn't attack them. According to this web site Pea Aphid the hosts plants for pea aphids are:garden and field peas, sweet peas, sweet clover, alfalfa, and some leguminous weeds. Vetch and crimson clover are important overwintering hosts.
I would think that the pea plants would stay small due to aphids and if not you could always trim them.
Any thoughts?

Dave


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## Julio

They don't really seem to like humidity too well, so they will be fine for a few days then die due to the humidity.


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## NathalieB

I also love the aphids, they are a great food source.
not difficult to culture but you have to stick to the schedule so you constantly have new plants. (I plant new peas aprox. every 5 days)
The only problem with this feeder is that the spent pea-plants have to be trown out in time because they stink and will attract fungus gnats that will take over your house. They also have problems with heat in summer (I don't know if it are the peas or the aphids that can't stand high temperatures but production always slows down very much in the hottest weeks). Because of the tight schedule you need someone to take care of your cultures when you are on holliday, even for a shorter period.

I make little mini pea-cultures I can put in the tanks.
I sometimes also just trow in some peas, but the roots can be rather destructive so I prefer to do it in little containers, the plants will also survive longer this way and grow slower. once the plants get too big, the production of aphids slows down (they really prefer the very young plants) 









it's great because the aphids keep producing in the tank, but it's only for the "smarter" frogs as the aphids don't move too much when they have a pea plant to sit on. So you need your frogs to "know" there is food on the plants.
You cannot trim the pea plants so you will have to replace them regularly.
If you just dump the aphids in the tank they will walk all around the tank but will not harm any ofyour plants. They will roam your tank for a few days untill they are eaten or die.
I brush the peas from the plants with a paintbrush so you can harvest more then once from the same pot of plants.
I also use a sieve to split-up the aphids size-wise so I can feed the tiny ones (springtail-size) to baby pumilio's and reticulates etc.

They aren't that species specific. the pea aphids wil thrive on any bean/pea/clover plant. I use the cheapest ones I can find: green peas that are sold as food for pigeons. I have tested with different kinds of peas and it didn't make a difference in terms of production.


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## iljjlm

Cool, thanks for the info Nathalie and Julio.
Dave


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## Corpus Callosum

I had been working on raising the pea aphids (_Acyrthosiphon pisum_) on an artificial diet, to remove the need of growing pea plants every week, but it seems they may not be as productive on an artificial diet compared to the live pea plants. Need to experiment more..


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## Dendrobait

Are pea aphids the only sp. that are any good? 

Also, why can't they be kept on adult plants?

Can cultures be kept in the fridge?


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## catfish

Would auratus and terribilis eat them???? If they get loose in the house, will they go after houseplants?


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## NathalieB

I don't know why but for some reason they don't reproduce as well (or completely stop multiplying) and start to wonder off once the plants get to a certain high. they produce a lot of offspring on young sprouts. also the older plants will start to rot and smell and become fungus gnat cultures instead of aphid cultures.

I can't imagine any species not eating them. their size varies from springtail-size to flour-beetle-size so there is something for every type of frog. It is the main food source for all my frogs.

they will not attack your house plants unless you have house-plants from the bean/pea family.

another type of aphid that would be suitable are wheat aphids but they are much more difficult to culture according to people who have done the tests and don't move as fast so are not as attractive to frogs. 
I have the same experience with the black aphids you can find on garden-plants like roses: the frogs eat them but they don't move enough to trigger much of a hunting-reflex and they die very fast in the terrariums. and it would be difficult to culture them.
the advantage of pea aphids (Acyrthosiphon pisum) is that both the animals themselves and the host plants are easy and fast to culture, they move like ants or beetles (speed-wise), will not infest any other plants and are liked very much by the frogs.


I don't understand why you would want to store them in the fridge... I don't keep any of my feeders in the fridge, most of them need warmer temperatures. maybe it would be possible, I haven't tried and haven't heard about anybody else trying.


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## melas

Corpus Callosum said:


> I had been working on raising the pea aphids (_Acyrthosiphon pisum_) on an *artificial diet*, to remove the need of growing pea plants every week, but it seems they may not be as productive on an artificial diet compared to the live pea plants. Need to experiment more..



Mike what were you trying?


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## Corpus Callosum

melas said:


> Mike what were you trying?


Well, I'm going to wait on posting what I've been working on until I have something that works well and I'm confident with, but here are the papers I've been looking at which provide their methods that you can mimic and experiment yourself:

A modified technique for rearing of the pea aphid on artificial diets

Pea Aphid: Rearing on a Chemically Defined Diet -- Auclair and Cartier 142 (3595): 1068 -- Science

IngentaConnect Continuous Rearing of the Pea Aphid, Acyrthosiphon pisum, on a Holidic Diet

Growth and reproduction of the symbiotic and aposymbiotic pea aphids, Acyrthosiphon pisum maintained on artificial diets.

Acyrthosiphon pisum performance in response to the sugar and amino acid composition of artificial diets, and its relation to lucerne varietal resistance 

IngentaConnect An Improved Chemically Defined Diet for the Pea Aphid, Acyrthosiphon pisum


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## Dendrobait

I was thinking more you plant in dirt and grow out some decent size plants to inoculate with aphids as your primary culture. Then keep germinating peas and infesting them with aphids for backup. That way you can go on vacation and not have your cultures crash.


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## gary1218

Corpus Callosum said:


> Well, I'm going to wait on posting what I've been working on until I have something that works well and I'm confident with, but here are the papers I've been looking at which provide their methods that you can mimic and experiment yourself:
> 
> A modified technique for rearing of the pea aphid on artificial diets
> 
> Pea Aphid: Rearing on a Chemically Defined Diet -- Auclair and Cartier 142 (3595): 1068 -- Science
> 
> IngentaConnect Continuous Rearing of the Pea Aphid, Acyrthosiphon pisum, on a Holidic Diet
> 
> Growth and reproduction of the symbiotic and aposymbiotic pea aphids, Acyrthosiphon pisum maintained on artificial diets.
> 
> Acyrthosiphon pisum performance in response to the sugar and amino acid composition of artificial diets, and its relation to lucerne varietal resistance
> 
> IngentaConnect An Improved Chemically Defined Diet for the Pea Aphid, Acyrthosiphon pisum


Ummmmmmmmm...........................OK Mike..........................just contact me when you've got it all worked out


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## Dendrobait

sounds like more trouble than its worth(stills requires more than weekly attention). Now, if artificial diets could make maintenance less I'd be all for it.


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## frogparty

neat technique, using the parafilm membrane. Would be sweet if the nutrient paste was readily available for purchase. Smear and go, but if the membrane needs to be changed out every 2 or 3 days, might be easier to just grow plants for em


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## Corpus Callosum

frogparty said:


> but if the membrane needs to be changed out every 2 or 3 days, might be easier to just grow plants for em


I think the 3rd link had an automated method where they only had to check on it once every 2 weeks, but I haven't tried that one yet, and they still said the aphids did better on live plants  .


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## pl259

Interesting stuff. I think I'm going to give this a try with pea sprouts. Anyone have any input regarding fava beans vs. pea seed? Peas seems like a reasonable and easily available choice. Worse case I can always throw some on my salad! 

Off to the health food store...


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## frogcrazy

How many aphids do you need to start a new culture?


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## Julio

the more the better, but i woudl not go with anything less than 100 to start


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## SLEDDER23

This seems very intriguing to me. I wonder if the "trouble" is worth it. I could certainly see the value in diversification of diet if nothing else.


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## NathalieB

I don't feel there is much more "trouble" compared with culturing fruitflies.
once you have a good setup and you stick to the schedule you are fine.
fruitfly cultures have to be setup regularly too and if I read some of the very complicated recepies for the medium some people use, I even think putting some peas in a container is much less work.

I even stopped culturing ff for a while and used these as the base died without a problem. Now I culture both again (also because I feed out the mite from the ff-cultures to the froglets).
The only pita is that i like to go on holliday and while I have no trouble finding people who can take care of my frogs for 2-5 weeks, keeping an aphid culture going this long has proven very difficult (you really have to get the hang of it).

I dare say that the quality of the clutches I get when feeding aphids is far better then in periods I'm not able to feed them aphids for some reason.
I already mentioned it I think but one big bonus for me is the "one size fits all" ... you can feed baby retics and adult terribilis from the same culture without any problem if you sort them out by size.

so for me it is without any doubt worth the trouble.


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## SLEDDER23

NathalieB said:


> I don't feel there is much more "trouble" compared with culturing fruitflies.
> once you have a good setup and you stick to the schedule you are fine.
> fruitfly cultures have to be setup regularly too and if I read some of the very complicated recepies for the medium some people use, I even think putting some peas in a container is much less work.
> 
> I even stopped culturing ff for a while and used these as the base died without a problem. Now I culture both again (also because I feed out the mite from the ff-cultures to the froglets).
> The only pita is that i like to go on holliday and while I have no trouble finding people who can take care of my frogs for 2-5 weeks, keeping an aphid culture going this long has proven very difficult (you really have to get the hang of it).
> 
> I dare say that the quality of the clutches I get when feeding aphids is far better then in periods I'm not able to feed them aphids for some reason.
> I already mentioned it I think but one big bonus for me is the "one size fits all" ... you can feed baby retics and adult terribilis from the same culture without any problem if you sort them out by size.
> 
> so for me it is without any doubt worth the trouble.


ok, you sold me.  I'll give it a go.


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## pl259

NathalieB said:


> I don't feel there is much more "trouble" compared with culturing fruitflies.


Do you follow the same method as in the first post or something different? My peas are sprouting now and I plan to grow them into larger plants before I introduce the aphids. I'm hoping the larger pea plants will live longer with the aphids and then reduce the chance of the line crashing.


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## gary1218

Where are you guys getting your peas from? 

I couldn't find the fava beans in any local food markets by me so I bought some fresh beans and popped the seeds out of those. But I didn't have any luck getting them to sprout???


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## pl259

gary1218 said:


> Where are you guys getting your peas from?


Gary,
I'm trying two different varieties of pea seed and I got each from a different place. I got a pound of Early Alaska from Mastergardening.com For Wellington Boots Potting Benches Composting Bins and a pound of Little Marvel from Vegetable Seeds, Flower Seeds and Wild Bird Seed in Bulk | Gazing Globes | MSS&S Each was under $10, shipped. I'm trying the Early Alaska because it grows in cooler temps and quicker. It's also a vining variety. The Little Marvel is a small bush variety. I'm going to experiment with two different approaches. The quick vining would be a one and done. Grow, inoculate with aphids, wait, feed and discard. Similar to the approach of the original post. With the bush variety, I'm going to try and selectively inoculate portions of the plant, wait, trim, and feed that portion, repeat. The hope is that I can sustain a single plant longer.


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## gary1218

THANKS Eric.


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## zBrinks

1 kg (about 2.2 lbs) of fava beans shipped for around $16:

Italian Seed and Tool Beans, Fava


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## NathalieB

SLEDDER23 said:


> ok, you sold me.  I'll give it a go.


haha, sorry don't want sound like an aphid-pusher  I just think this is one of the greatest feeders I have cultured



pl259 said:


> Do you follow the same method as in the first post or something different? My peas are sprouting now and I plan to grow them into larger plants before I introduce the aphids. I'm hoping the larger pea plants will live longer with the aphids and then reduce the chance of the line crashing.


yes, roughly the same method only on a 5 days schedule instead of 7 days.
and I put them in smaller but higher containers (the ones typically used for culturing ff). I also don't put them under an artificial light source but directly in natural light by a window.
I also get multiple harvest from one culture as I don't cut the plants, but brush the aphids off with a paintbrush. I harvest every 3/4 days and throw out the cultures with plants that are going bad (on potting soil they tend to last longer but on cottonballs they sprout faster)
I try to put aphids on the sprouts when they are maximum 5 days old. I found that you CAN wait untill the plants are bigger, but the production of new aphids will be much much much better on very fresh sprouts.
I haven't used fava beans as I can't find them anywhere in Belgium so maybe they will produce better and longer on those (there must be a reason fava beans are the favorite choice for laboratorium culturing of these aphids). I have experimented with different types of peas and green beans (dried seeds, no fresh ones) and haven't found a big difference in production between the common varieties. I now use the cheapest green peas I can found, sold as bird/pigeon-food.

I have added some pictures of the way I culture them (in boxes in front of the window). You can see an overview of new and old cultures and how a culture looks like when I keep it too long and the plants are drained by the aphids


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## gary1218

GREAT info Nathalie. THANKS VERY MUCH!!!


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## pl259

Thanks Nathalie, very good info. Sounds like there is a trade off between how quickly the aphids multiply and plant maturity/life. 

How long do you keep a single culture going after you add aphids to it?


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## NathalieB

I have no idea how long I keep the cultures exactly. I trow them out based on visual inspection, not by date.
Cultures on pottingsoil can be kept longer than those on cottoballs. 
I think I trow them out after 10-14 days but I have put a date on my new cultures so I can check this.
I'll get back to you on that.


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## gary1218

I was curious if anybody else has tried culturing the aphids since Nathalie has posted this. And if you have how is it going?

I've got my pea seeds sprouting now and I placed an order for the aphids today. They'll be here next Wednesday


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## pl259

Got the peas and sprouting them. I'm going to grow the peas out a little more than just two weeks. I planted some of the sprouts in seed starter and their growth slowed down a bit. Still working out the pea details before I commit to the aphids.


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## gary1218

pl259 said:


> Still working out the pea details before I commit to the aphids.



I probably should have done that but I was too eager to get the bugs


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## pl259

Some feedback on the pea sprouting so far...
The Early Alaska variety have sprouted very nicely. It took about two weeks for me to get sprouts big enough for me to consider adding aphids. I'm also growing some of these into mature plants. The Little Marvels have been harder. The first batch molded over. I think it's just a matter of changing sprounting technique. 

Speaking of which...
What I'm doing now is soaking about a dozen peas overnight, then draining and placing the peas on damp paper towel in a closed 32oz deli container. I'm changing the paper towel once a week. I'm going to shorten the initial soak time on the Little Marvels and change the towels more often. 

Right now the Early Alaskas look good. They sprout well and grow big enough and quickly in our typical FF CX cups with only a couple sheets of paper towel.


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## gary1218

I went with the Early Alaska. I'm doing the same as you, soaking overnight and then planting. I've been putting mine in my egg/tad incubator to keep them warm & moist. Mine start showing signs of starting to sprout in a day.

These are my first few test cultures to get an idea of what to expect. They're not quite two weeks old.









Here's two I'm planning on using for the aphids I'm getting on Wednesday. These are both 3 days old.
one on paper towels









one on coconut coir









I guess I'm wondering what the ideal size the pea sprouts should be to add the aphids to them. Do they prefer new shoots or more mature plants?


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## Corpus Callosum

At least for me, the aphids were always in the top few inches of the sprouts by the new growth. Not sure if this is because the young tissue is easier for them to pierce through, but I'm not sure how worth while it is to grow out the sprouts to a mature plant, since mine ignored the older growth. But your experiences may vary so keep us posted.

Instead of throwing away all the dead growth after the aphids were done with the plant, I threw in some orange isopods to culture them as well, and they made nice work of the left over material.


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## gary1218

Thanks Mike.


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## pl259

Corpus Callosum said:


> At least for me, the aphids were always in the top few inches of the sprouts by the new growth. Not sure if this is because the young tissue is easier for them to pierce through, but I'm not sure how worth while it is to grow out the sprouts to a mature plant, since mine ignored the older growth. But your experiences may vary so keep us posted.


I'm not sure either. The idea behind having some mature plants, is strickly for the purpose of establishing a longer term, backup colony of aphids. I want it to be harder and slower for them to propagate and therefore harder to kill the plant. I plan on using sprouts for the week to week CXs.

In your experience Mike, how important is ventilation to the CXs and the aphids? The sprouts seem to do well enough in a closed deli container. Do you think the aphids will be OK in that case?

______________
EricG.NH


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## gary1218

pl259 said:


> how important is ventilation to the CXs and the aphids? The sprouts seem to do well enough in a closed deli container. Do you think the aphids will be OK in that case?


Somewhere I think somebody mention that the aphids don't like the humdity.


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## Corpus Callosum

My experience was the same as Julio's since we were both using fava bean plants, which was that when humidity was high, the plants died (aphids were fine, but crashed since they lost the plant). It's possible the peas you guys are growing will do better and won't have the same issue, but we had to use a screen top for ventilation to prevent our plants from rotting early, so it was more of a plant issue than aphid issue. I'm sure you guys will figure out a much better method than anything we did.


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## Dendrobait

What about waterlily or plum aphids( Rhopalosiphum nymphaeae) ? 

They are small...not quite melanogaster sized, and rather slow moving. But they'd be easy to culture. Just raise duckweed in a tank, plop some duckweed into a margarine container or similar with the aphids. When aphids drain duckweed dry you can tap them out of the container as they begin walking around looking for new food. I wonder though if darts would like them.


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## Julio

darts love them, when you do field sweeps alot of the times you will get aphids in your sweep and they will goble them up.


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## gary1218

Well, I'm sure this is a dumb question but I'm going to ask it anyways. Will these aphids just live off some sort of pea plant?

I've got mine going now on some Early Alaska pea plants and the only little problem so far is that after a week or so these pea plants get long and stringy. The aphids seem to go for the leafs on the plants which occur just every 3" or so.

I was thinking about trying some other leafy plant that stays very short, maybe like clover. Dumb idea???


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## Julio

they are species specific so yeah, pea aphids will eat pead plants.


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## NathalieB

they like some types of pea plants better then others in my experience. the ones that get to high without many leaves aren't that good for culturing them. that's also why they do better on the very fresh sprouts that aren't too high.
they could be raised on peas, bean, clover and alfalfa too, but there are studies on how adapted to their host they are and you should have the best restults if you keep them on the same type of plant their population was originally raised on


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## gary1218

NathalieB said:


> they like some types of pea plants better then others in my experience. the ones that get to high without many leaves aren't that good for culturing them. that's also why they do better on the very fresh sprouts that aren't too high.
> they could be raised on peas, bean, clover and alfalfa too, but there are studies on how adapted to their host they are and you should have the best restults if you keep them on the same type of plant their population was originally raised on


Thanks Nathalie.

I just got some fava beans to try to see if I like those better. Maybe I'll try a few different varieties of peas as well.


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## Julio

Gary, Fava beans work well for them and they seem to love those, so once they get established they will take off on you that it will be a task to produce enough plants to keep them going.


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## gary1218

Julio said:


> Gary, Fava beans work well for them and they seem to love those, so once they get established they will take off on you that it will be a task to produce enough plants to keep them going.


Thanks Julio. 

I'm curious to see how the fava beans do. I'll keep you posted


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## SLEDDER23

Anyone willing/able to ship a "starter culture"? Looks like they're about $20+ shipping online. If I can save some $ and subsidize your frog hobby, I would prefer that.


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## pl259

I've been using the Early Alaska variety of pea with the same results as Gary. They've been sprouting easily and consistently. However, they grow very lean with a few small leaves early on. This maybe due to poor lighting. All you need per culture is a 32oz deli container, top, and a couple sheets of damp paper towel. They'll grow untouched this way for a couple weeks. The top I'm using is unvented. Switching to a vented top after a week or so and using stronger lighting is the next thing I'm going to try. A bag of peas, enough for 52 weeks of cultures, is under $10.

I'm going to try some additional varieties of peas. The Little Marvels didn't sprout well for me, but I'm going to give them another try. 

I haven't yet added the aphids, but expect to soon.

Keep up the good work everyone!


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## Julio

Hey Eric,
one of the things with the fava beans the leafs and stems are bigger and longer, that is why i did not want to go with the alaska variety. I am starting to culture them again, so tiem will tell when i get them goign again. But they produce really well for me.


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## pl259

Julio said:


> Hey Eric,
> one of the things with the fava beans the leafs and stems are bigger and longer, that is why i did not want to go with the alaska variety. I am starting to culture them again, so tiem will tell when i get them goign again. But they produce really well for me.


Understood. I'll continue to experiment with the peas and you and Gary can work with the Fava beans. This way we'll get some good all around results and can trade the pros and cons.


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## gary1218

I'm having a little problem with the fava beans molding. They don't seem to like being real moist. I may have have to come up with a little different way to get them to initially sprout.

I'm also going to try them on clover. If they produced well on the clover I think that would be the way to go, at least for me.


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## pl259

I've ordered the following from Main Street to see how each one sprouts. I'm listing them here in order to avoid duplication of effort. Once I find the ones I like, we can compare notes. I'll then get some aphids and take the next step. 

Dutch White Clover 1 pound
Lima Beans-Henderson Baby 1 Pound
Specialty Beans-Roma (Italian) 1 Pound
Pea-Progress #9 1 Pound
Pea-Oregon Giant 1 Pound
Pea-Wando 1 Pound


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## gary1218

pl259 said:


> Dutch White Clover 1 pound
> Lima Beans-Henderson Baby 1 Pound
> Specialty Beans-Roma (Italian) 1 Pound
> Pea-Progress #9 1 Pound
> Pea-Oregon Giant 1 Pound
> Pea-Wando 1 Pound


Quite the summer garden 

So far I like the early alaska peas because they sprout so fast. They also do have a good number of leaves it's just that they get long and viney and the leaves get spread out. I'm thinking if I can somehow keep them confined and keep them from just sprawling all over the place the early alaska peas will work well. 

What I'm trying right now is growing the peas in a FF cup with the lid on. The FF lid allows a little air to pass through but still keeps the pea roots moist. As the vines grow up they'll hit the top of the cup and just bend over and grow back down into the cup. All the leaves and aphids will be in a confined space. 

I guess we'll see


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## Julio

Hey Gary,
the fava beans dont mold usually if you plant them directly in a plants mix, but they will mold if you try to sprout them like the Alaskan peas.


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## pl259

gary1218 said:


> Quite the summer garden
> 
> So far I like the early alaska peas because they sprout so fast. They also do have a good number of leaves it's just that they get long and viney and the leaves get spread out. I'm thinking if I can somehow keep them confined and keep them from just sprawling all over the place the early alaska peas will work well.
> 
> What I'm trying right now is growing the peas in a FF cup with the lid on. The FF lid allows a little air to pass through but still keeps the pea roots moist. As the vines grow up they'll hit the top of the cup and just bend over and grow back down into the cup. All the leaves and aphids will be in a confined space.
> 
> I guess we'll see


Gary, are your FF lids vented? My results with the Early Alaska Peas are the same as yours. I guess what I'm looking for is an easy to sprout seed, that sprouts in a deli cup, the aphids like, and has a little more leafy growth at the start. 

...and yeah, way more seed then I'll need more a while. If they sprout well I guess I can just eat them!


----------



## pl259

Gary, Now that I think about it...How about I send some of these up your way, since you already have some aphids going?


----------



## gary1218

Julio said:


> Hey Gary,
> the fava beans dont mold usually if you plant them directly in a plants mix, but they will mold if you try to sprout them like the Alaskan peas.


Thanks Julio.

I guess I was kind of hoping not to have to mess with any dirt  But I will give them a try based on your advice that the aphids seem to like them better than the peas.


----------



## gary1218

pl259 said:


> Gary, Now that I think about it...How about I send some of these up your way, since you already have some aphids going?


Let me try out the few ideas I'm working on right now. If one of those works out I think I'll be all set.


----------



## gary1218

These are the two methods I'm trying now.

I'm really hoping this one works out well. As the plants get taller and hit the top of the cup I'm hoping they'll just bend over and grow back down into the cup. That will keep all the leaves in a more confined space for the aphids to get to.









These are 64 oz containers. A little more space and not covered. As these plants get taller I'm just going to bend them back into the container.









AND...............THE BUGS!!!!!! 










I just started tonight some of the fava beans in the FF cups but with coco coir on the bottom rather than just paper towels. I'm finding they mold on the very moist paper towels.


----------



## SLEDDER23

wow, those are really infested! I like the 32 oz idea, looks like a sound concept to me. 

I ordered mine last night and hope to have some similar success soon.


----------



## Julio

very nice Gary, in now time you will have thoudsands.


----------



## frogparty

I have a bunch of aphids on some mint plants... wonder if I can culture those


----------



## Julio

Its worth a try, but they can be species specific, so its a good chance those guys woudl only survive on mint plants.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Looks good Gary, have you fed any yet? How was the response?


----------



## gary1218

Corpus Callosum said:


> Looks good Gary, have you fed any yet? How was the response?


Not yet. I'm still experimenting so I've only been doing a culture or 2 at a time. As one experiment finishes up I've pretty much been transferring those aphids to the next experiment.

I should know in about a week if my FF cup experiment is going to work. If that works out I'll start cranking up the production.

When you and Julio were culturing them on the fava beans how long did it take your fava beans to get to a point where you could put aphids on them? I'm finding mind take over twice as long as the peas to sprout and get to a decent size.

Also, if we have a get together anytime soon and you and Julio need a starter culture of the aphids let me know.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Fava beans took me a few days to sprout and then the aphids would get on them as soon as the sprout dropped the bean/shell and the first leafset was visisble. So I guess a week. But it looks like the pea sprouts are easier to manage so I think that's what I'll get when I run out of my left over favas.

When I kept the favas in any type of FF container or enclosure with humidity, they would rot after a week or two, so I ended up just using a 10 gallon with a screen lid that was kept dry.

I do need a starter culture again but I think I can get it from Eric or Julio at the NEFG meeting next month, thanks!


----------



## pl259

Gary,
Are those the Early Alaska in the first pic? Mine are even more skinny than that. What are you using for light?


----------



## gary1218

pl259 said:


> Gary,
> Are those the Early Alaska in the first pic? Mine are even more skinny than that. What are you using for light?


Yes, they're the Early Alaska. I started keeping them on the top of the vivs with my FF cultures. So they're very close to the lights on my vivs. They sprout very fast.


----------



## Ed

gary1218 said:


> These are the two methods I'm trying now.
> 
> I'm really hoping this one works out well. As the plants get taller and hit the top of the cup I'm hoping they'll just bend over and grow back down into the cup. That will keep all the leaves in a more confined space for the aphids to get to.


Just a comment, I don't think the peas are going to bend down, instead I would expect them to bend sideways to stay close to the light and get tangled up. 

Ed


----------



## Corpus Callosum

gary1218 said:


> Yes, they're the Early Alaska. They sprout very fast.


How fast from the time you plant them to the time you can see the first leaf? The main reason I lost my culture to begin with was because the fava beans took a week to be ready for inoculation by aphids, and I fell off track, but if the peas are ready in 2-3 days that would have saved my culture.

p.s. soaking the peas/beans for a few hours (or overnight) in water (dechlorinated) will increase your germination rate.


----------



## gary1218

Ed said:


> Just a comment, I don't think the peas are going to bend down, instead I would expect them to bend sideways to stay close to the light and get tangled up.
> 
> Ed


Actually, that would be OK as well. Basically as long as the leaves are kept in a confined space for the aphids to easily get to will work for me.


----------



## gary1218

Corpus Callosum said:


> How fast from the time you plant them to the time you can see the first leaf? The main reason I lost my culture to begin with was because the fava beans took a week to be ready for inoculation by aphids, and I fell off track, but if the peas are ready in 2-3 days that would have saved my culture.


I guess I really haven't been watching for when the first leaf appears. I see the root come out of the pea on day 1 and a sprout start to come out by day 3. My guess would be the leaf comes out day 4 or 5.

I just started a new one last night. I'll try and keep and eye out for the first leaf and let you know.



Corpus Callosum said:


> p.s. soaking the peas/beans for a few hours (or overnight) in water (dechlorinated) will increase your germination rate.


Yep, I'm doing overnight soaking for both the peas and beans.


----------



## SLEDDER23

Where are those that have them getting their aphids from? I ordered from Berkshire biological and have yet to hear from them. I tried contacting them yesterday but have not yet heard back. Also, committing to an order w/o knowing the cost of shipping is a bit unnerving.

EDIT: Wow, just saw the total on my online bank statement, 31.50 for 100 shipped. Seems a bit steep to me, but if they all arrive well and ready to get down to business I suppose it is worth it.


----------



## gary1218

SLEDDER23 said:


> Where are those that have them getting their aphids from? I ordered from Berkshire biological and have yet to hear from them.


That's where I got mine from.




SLEDDER23 said:


> EDIT: Wow, just saw the total on my online bank statement, 31.50 for 100 shipped. Seems a bit steep to me, but if they all arrive well and ready to get down to business I suppose it is worth it.


I got 100 as well but I don't think I paid $32 for them.


----------



## Scott

That's about right - it was $14.50 for 50 of them. And I'm closer for shipping purposes.

Make sure you keep your Fava Beans sprouting folks!

Too much humidity and they're doomed. Not enough humidity and they're doomed.

s


----------



## gary1218

Corpus Callosum said:


> How fast from the time you plant them to the time you can see the first leaf?


Mike,

First leaves starting to appear at day 4.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

I'll soak some fava beans now and germinate them to confirm.. but pretty sure they took double that, so may not be a reason to bother with them anymore unless they provide some other advantage..


----------



## SLEDDER23

I'm not having much success with the fava versus regular peas. Not sure if there are benefits or not to the fava that would make up for my luck, or just a better procedure than I am using. 

Off to google the answer... 

Still waiting on a response from Berkshire too.


----------



## Ed

Digging back through my memory.. I seem to remember reading an abstract on differences in mineral content of aphids feeding on plants in different soils. 
(Don't ask me for the reference as I can't remember it off hand).. This might be an avenue to pursue for nutrition for the aphids but if you are trying it, you would have to balance the minerals against what the pea is likely to absorb and potential toxicity to the pea plant if something is in excess (some plants are more sensitive to say boron than other plants..) 

Just a random thought. 

Ed


----------



## SLEDDER23

I was wondering the same, though in a more vague and less educated manner. I would think in short that the aphid would allow more potential for "gut loading" than other feeders. Worst case, it is added variety for our frogs.


----------



## NathalieB

gary1218 said:


> Mike,
> 
> First leaves starting to appear at day 4.


FYI, in my experience this is the best stage to introduce the aphids, they are the most prolific on young sprouts like this.


----------



## Ed

SLEDDER23 said:


> I was wondering the same, though in a more vague and less educated manner. I would think in short that the aphid would allow more potential for "gut loading" than other feeders. Worst case, it is added variety for our frogs.


The gut transit time on an aphid is apparently really quick as they have to get rid of the excess water and sugars to prevent these from reaching toxic levels so they are constantly excreting them. This would limit the gut loading but as I remember the abstract (and I could be totally misremembering it), they sequestered the nutrients. 

Ed


----------



## gary1218

Latest update on the pea aphids in the FF cups.

First of all, Ed was right. But then again, Ed is always right. Don't you just hate that about him 

The plants did not bend over and grow back down into the cups. They stayed at the top of the cup.









But that wasn't really necessarily a bad thing. Most of the aphids were right at the top amongst all the leaves. It was very easy to just tip the cup sideways and brush the pea aphids off with my finger.









The one thing I haven't seen so far is a big explosion of the aphids. Not sure if maybe I'm just not leaving them on the pea plants long enough.

Nathalie, Mike, Julio - how long would you guys leave the pea aphids on the plants till you would either feed them to the frogs or use them to start new cultures?

I'm trying a batch this time on some clover.


----------



## SLEDDER23

I just got 100 dead ones in the mail today.


----------



## NathalieB

gary1218 said:


> The one thing I haven't seen so far is a big explosion of the aphids. Not sure if maybe I'm just not leaving them on the pea plants long enough.
> 
> Nathalie, Mike, Julio - how long would you guys leave the pea aphids on the plants till you would either feed them to the frogs or use them to start new cultures?


in my experience you never/rarely get really booming cultures on pea sprouts this big/old, only on the very young sprouts.
on the young sprouts I can harvest about every 3 days and the plants will be full of aphids again. Occasionally big ones like this also boom but in general they contain only moderate numbers of aphids.
How old are the plants in this picture?


----------



## Julio

hey gary,
iculture mine in a large screened in tank, so i just take out the seeded plant and shake it to get the aphids off into the tank, the plants are raised in small five once cups and are replaced as they die out, i have found this to be the easiest way to culture them out rather then start new cultures like fruit flies, all i do is plant new seed every week instead.


----------



## gary1218

NathalieB said:


> How old are the plants in this picture?


Thanks for the info Nathalie. How many peas are you planting at one time for one culture?

The pea plants in that pic are probably around 10 days old.


----------



## gary1218

Julio said:


> hey gary,
> iculture mine in a large screened in tank, so i just take out the seeded plant and shake it to get the aphids off into the tank, the plants are raised in small five once cups and are replaced as they die out, i have found this to be the easiest way to culture them out rather then start new cultures like fruit flies, all i do is plant new seed every week instead.



Thanks Julio. I've been thinking about that idea as well.

Are you using fava beans or pea seeds? Do your plants tend to get long and stringy as they grow? Or are you replacing them before they get too old?


----------



## pl259

Here are some pics of the sprouting that I'm doing. The results parallel Gary's very well.

Clover. Very easy to sprout. Just spread some seed on moist paper towel and off
it goes. No need to pre-soak.









Early Alaske Pea. So far, very reliable. Very tolerant of different pre-soak times. These were rinsed after a couple days to help control mold. The sprouts lost which way was up and this slowed the growth.









Lil Marvel Pea. Continue to have problems with mold even after periodic rinsing and different pre-soak times. 









Using smaller cups for other seeds. 









Lima Beans. Mold issues.









Oregon Giant Pea. Good so far.









I'm working with additional species of pea, that also seem to sprout well. Next I'm going to change the spouting setup a little and try adding some things to the pre-soak or rinse water, like a little vineger to raise the PH or a little Hydrogen Peroxide.

As you might expect, its about finding a nice simple setup that provides sufficient amounts of light, heat, and humidity.


----------



## gary1218

Pretty cool Eric 

I think I'm going to switch off the soaked paper towels method to coco coir. There doesn't seem to be the mold problem with the coco coir. 

The stuff I'm using I got from Joshs Frogs. It's not the real fine, almost peat moss like stuff. It's more very small ground up pieces of coconut shells. Holds the moisture well but not so much that the seeds mold.

Right now I'm really hoping the aphids on the clover do well. That would be by far the simplest. The seeds sprout in a day or two and stay a nice small size. That will be next weeks update


----------



## Julio

gary1218 said:


> Thanks Julio. I've been thinking about that idea as well.
> 
> Are you using fava beans or pea seeds? Do your plants tend to get long and stringy as they grow? Or are you replacing them before they get too old?


Hey Gary,
i am using fava beans they do get long, i only replace them as they start to turn black, that is the key to replacing them right away as the aphids are killing them right now. They do get long and stringy, but i think that is from growing under fluorescent light.


----------



## pl259

gary1218 said:


> Pretty cool Eric
> 
> I think I'm going to switch off the soaked paper towels method to coco coir. There doesn't seem to be the mold problem with the coco coir.
> 
> The stuff I'm using I got from Joshs Frogs. It's not the real fine, almost peat moss like stuff. It's more very small ground up pieces of coconut shells. Holds the moisture well but not so much that the seeds mold.
> 
> Right now I'm really hoping the aphids on the clover do well. That would be by far the simplest. The seeds sprout in a day or two and stay a nice small size. That will be next weeks update


I'm thinking the same way about the paper towels. Having the seeds in direct constant contact with the damp paper towel seems to make mold worse. I was thinking that infield conditioner might be good. I'll be trying that as well(since I have enough of it to make my own infield).

Clover sprouts well but I have a concern that harvesting the aphids might be harder than with a bigger thicker sprout. 

Do you think that no-see-um netting would keep the aphids contained?


----------



## gary1218

pl259 said:


> Do you think that no-see-um netting would keep the aphids contained?


Yes. I think that stuff is fine enough to keep the aphids in and other stuff out.


----------



## Julio

i thing i do find with the fava beans is that their stem is a little more rigid


----------



## pl259

Another update. No pics yet. Early Alaska variety continue to sprout easily but get leggy compared to others. The Oregon Giant, Little Marvel, and Wando varieties, all sprout nice and thick, when they don't mold. They all produce leaves sooner. I've set aside playing with the clover seed for now.

Started two experiments to help curb the molding by adding low concentrations of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar to the soaking solutions. So far the hydrogen peroxide has some surprising results. The seeds actually started sprouting right in the soaking solution. They were in there longer than expected though, about 15hrs. 

Both sets of seeds in these experiments have been moved to an aquatic soil setup where they are placed right on top of the soil. In this case I'm using washed infield conditioner for the soil. The containers are then filled about halfway up the height of the soil and the seeds added on top. I'm keeping the containers sealed for a couple days just to keep up the humidity and until the sprouts reach down to the water.


----------



## Ed

I can't remember the name of the cultivar but there is at least one edible pea cultivar that only produces tendrils and no leaves. I wonder if it would be a better option.. 

Ed


----------



## merk1_99

Any further updates on this thread?


----------



## Dancing frogs

I'm thinking I'll try this...just ordered a kilo of fava seeds.
How soon after I acheive some sprouts should I order my starter culture? Probably from Berkshire.


----------



## Julio

Fava beans take about a week to get soem good spouts on them, so give them a week and make sure you plant new one s on a weekly basis so you can keep up with the culture, they reproduce pretty fast.


----------



## Dancing frogs

Thanks,
So did anyone ever figure out which species of bean or pea gives the biggest bang for the buck?


----------



## Dancing frogs

Got my fava bean seeds today...also trying black-eyed peas, since I have them on hand for the bean beetles anyway...it's only been about 18 hours, and I see sprouts from the black-eyed beans already...hopefully the aphids will like them.


----------



## Dancing frogs

Had an idea today...would buying bean sprouts, as used in Asian cooking work in a pinch?

When you feed out, how many should you save to start out the next culture?

I saw on one of the links posted, that they require 4 molts to get to the breeding stage...
Do I need to pay particular attention, or just wait till they are booming before you feed/split the culture?

I think a care sheet should be made...


----------



## Julio

They breed rather fast so if you split the culture you will have mroe than enough to start another. you only need about 50 to start a culture and in about a week or 2 it will be about 1K easily. 
Not sure if the bean sprouts for Asian food woudl work, but you can try.


----------



## flapjax3000

Just a couple questions on the logistics of feeding the pea aphids. Do you dust them the same way you do the ff? Do you dump them in the tank, or place them in a container (like termites)? Also can you shake them out of the cultures or do you have to scrape them off of the pea stalks?


----------



## pl259

I need to revist the aphid thing but one of the earlier things that really worked well was adding some hydrogen perioxide to the water. It made a big difference as I recall.


----------



## Julio

when i fed them i fed them as a treat, but the frogs didn't really like them too much so i stopped culturing them, i did not dust them when i fed them.


----------



## Suzanne

You can shake them off when there are a lot (no green stem visible, just aphids). They fall off really easily at this point.
If there are less, I brush them off with a soft brush.
You can dust them really well, because they are sticky so the dust stays on for a long time. I just shake them into the viv, exactly like with fruit flies.


----------



## gary1218

Suzanne,

How are you culturing your pea aphids? Pretty much the same as what has been posted here? Do have something that's been working particularly well for you?

Thanks.


----------



## Dancing frogs

I don't think I've seen this Q covered here:
How many bean sprouts (we'll just use fava as a for instance) do you need to have going to produce as many aphids as say a 32oz fruit fly culture will make? 

By the looks of my starter cultures, they only really like to go for the tiny new leaves, so I'm guessing you need a lot of sprouts... or do they start to take the whole sprout once they start to reproduce?


----------



## Julio

in my experience, the more food suply you provide them, the more aphids you will have, however fava beans grow tall and lean so a fruit fly cup is not suitable for them, i actually had my culture goign in a 10 gallon vert and even then the fava plants woudl always be too tall.


----------



## stevenhman

Perhaps....a sticky?


----------



## tincubus

i think this is a great sticky!!!

i have some little green guys in my grass outside and they look a lot like these guys.

sometimes i will see 1000's of these grass/plant eaters and get a cup and scopp them in to give to my frogs. they act like wingless fruitflies and the tincs love them, well love to eat them.


----------



## Dancing frogs

A question on culturing timelines...
Do aphids boom and bust, kind of like bean beetles, or are they more like fruit flies, where there are usually always a good number to be seen?


----------



## Suzanne

@gary1218. I culture them by the same basic idea, but I use green peas in stead of fava beans. What really works for me is culturing them in disposible plastic beer glasses with holes in the bottom. I place these in container with a layer of water, really easy to keep everything moist without soaking the aphids along the way. I use cotton balls as substrate for the peas to sprout on, because this stays in the glass when I shake the aphids off.


----------



## Krakanax

Hi,

I am back in the hobby after a four years break ... and completely new to aphids.
Here is my own way at culturing aphids. First attemps and so far so good.
Seems to work better than with the regular "beer plastic cups I have used so far.










I place the peas right under a 8W bulb. On this picture, taken 4 days ago I just seeded with aphids.
Right now the peas are a little higher but not that much.
Just make sure the soil stays a little wet 


K.


----------



## Krakanax

Hi,

Quick update with a picture from tonight.
The peas are growing well but not that high. They stay quite small.










I just add some water every other day so that they won't dry out.


K.


----------



## Bonobo

This is awesome.. Too bad you're in France, I would totally buy some aphids from you.


----------



## frogfreak

Your setup looks great! What kind of peas did you plant?


----------



## Krakanax

Bonobo said:


> This is awesome.. Too bad you're in France, I would totally buy some aphids from you.


Even if I lived in the States, I don't see how they could be shipped.
Looks like the aphids are quite fragile ...

You better come over have a glass of wine, I will very gladly give you some 


K.


----------



## Krakanax

frogfreak said:


> Your setup looks great! What kind of peas did you plant?


I have used those ones untill last week:
"Nain" means "dwarf" 





















For this new try out, with a different set up, I am using some peas bought at one of these places where they sell all kinds of seeds for birds. It's a little too late over here for a picture of thoses but I will try to get you one tomorrow.

K.


----------



## Krakanax

Hi,

Few days after I added the aphids ...
The peas are not that high and I don't expect them to grow much higher.
May be an other inch.












I have set an other shelve like this one for an other 8 "boxes" of aphids so that I have a constant rotation of cultures.


K.


----------



## Shinosuke

Do you leave the cultures open on the shelf like that with the aphids in them or are they usually in a sealed container?


----------



## Krakanax

Nope!

The cultures are open at all time, not sealed, and so far I have not seen one of the aphids walikng around the shelve. They stay put on the peas 
Light is on 24/24 (night and day).
Only thing to look after are fruit flies, they may enjoy the substrat and may want to lay eggs in it (just wondering about it).

The good thing about it is that you can place the cultures directly in the terrarium, once you have all of the needed aphids on the peas.


K.


----------



## Krakanax

Quick update!

The last picture on this thread is not the right one, something got mixed up, sorry.
I can't edit the post anymore ...

Here is one of the cultures, almost ready for the frogs!











Just make sure that the substrat is always humid enough, not soaked, otherwise your cultures will go down the drain.


K.


----------



## oddlot

I know this is an old thread,But I was wondering if anyone knew if the aphids I have happily infesting and gorging themselves on my honeysuckle could be cultured this way?


----------



## Ed

oddlot said:


> I know this is an old thread,But I was wondering if anyone knew if the aphids I have happily infesting and gorging themselves on my honeysuckle could be cultured this way?


How are you at culturing honeysuckle indoors? Many aphids have some level of plant specificity so you need to culture the host plant to feed them or you can try to get an artificial diet like discussed in post #21

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## a hill

Has anyone been culturing these lately? I'm thinking a 55g with small dishes of sprouting beans going in and then placed in vivs or shaken off would work well and consistently make it possible to have no worries on small growth in deli containers. Maybe use 6 to 12 ounce ones?

-Andrew


----------



## Dendrobait

I wonder if they like black eye peas...I find that peas infested by bean beetles will often still sprout....


----------



## a hill

Dendrobait said:


> I wonder if they like black eye peas...I find that peas infested by bean beetles will often still sprout....



Your bean Beatle cultures should be dry. If they're sprouting then you're doing something wrong. 

-Andrew


----------



## sports_doc

https://www.facebook.com/groups/872406816143644/

I think, as a group, we need to do more with nutrition. While termites, pinheads and maggots can help, I believe we still need a easily propagated food like FF's. My thought is we need to work harder at doing aphids correctly in the USA. They are highly praised in Europe for micro geckos and dart froggers but just have not 'caught on' in the US. I've tried, unsuccessfully to sustain cultures of aphids but I am sure as a group we can get this right. I've made a link here...for a repository of information on FB, since that isnt really a 'forum' archive although many of us froggers are there. 

I am hope you will contribute and we can get better foods going here. Not just FF's and 'better' dust, if you know what I mean.


----------



## jimmy rustles

sports_doc said:


> https://www.facebook.com/groups/872406816143644/
> 
> I think, as a group, we need to do more with nutrition. While termites, pinheads and maggots can help, I believe we still need a easily propagated food like FF's. My thought is we need to work harder at doing aphids correctly in the USA. They are highly praised in Europe for micro geckos and dart froggers but just have not 'caught on' in the US. I've tried, unsuccessfully to sustain cultures of aphids but I am sure as a group we can get this right. I've made a link here...for a repository of information on FB, since that isnt really a 'forum' archive although many of us froggers are there.
> 
> I am hope you will contribute and we can get better foods going here. Not just FF's and 'better' dust, if you know what I mean.


from what ive heard, the aphids are rather used to supplement the diet, not as staple food like FF, as theyre supposed to consist of more carbohydrates than proteins. Havent seen anything do prove/disprove this tho, so just passing hearsay.
I did try my luck with attractomorpha sp. as feeder once, as some people have great success with them. My culture never boomed tho, until I unfortunately lost em all. For people with a better hand for Insects, this should be a nice feeder tho, small young animals, active by day with a plant based diet and they look kinda nice, the bad thing is theyre glass climbers and the younglings are good at getting through the smallest cracks.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Some pea plants flower blue, so they were among my blue flower experiments. I had a few sprout in vivs, but never lasted long. My guess is humidity is an issue. A custom container with a fine mesh or that AC foam I use making up the sides of the container; may allow more airflow and keep a pea culture going longer? Kinda like a Chameleon cage, but for pea aphids


----------



## a hill

sports_doc said:


> https://www.facebook.com/groups/872406816143644/
> 
> 
> 
> I think, as a group, we need to do more with nutrition. While termites, pinheads and maggots can help, I believe we still need a easily propagated food like FF's. My thought is we need to work harder at doing aphids correctly in the USA. They are highly praised in Europe for micro geckos and dart froggers but just have not 'caught on' in the US. I've tried, unsuccessfully to sustain cultures of aphids but I am sure as a group we can get this right. I've made a link here...for a repository of information on FB, since that isnt really a 'forum' archive although many of us froggers are there.
> 
> 
> 
> I am hope you will contribute and we can get better foods going here. Not just FF's and 'better' dust, if you know what I mean.



I've been away from the forums lately due to unforeseen life events, but I'm working on a few things with weevils and aphids. It takes a surprising amount of time to figure these things out (in my experience so far) unfortunately. I'm reaching out to entomologists and once testing is completed I'm hoping to have some new developments for microfauna. 

-Andrew


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## Aquarimax

I am curious about how pea aphids work with dusting supplements. As you have seen, Drosophila melanogaster gets "dusted" easily, but once in the viv thy immediately begin cleaning themselves off. Bean beetles seem to stay dusted longer, and don't clean themselves off as quickly or as thoroughly. Flour beetle larvae don't take on dust very easily. How are aphids in these respects?


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## Dendrobait

a hill said:


> Your bean Beatle cultures should be dry. If they're sprouting then you're doing something wrong.
> 
> -Andrew


Im talking about peas riddled with holes that get dumped into vivs by accident


I wish there was a bean beetle that was melo sized...itd be the perfect ant sub.

One thing I notice with feuitflies and springs is that often frogs will be "full"on fruotflies bit still readily take springtails.

I've been keeping sawtooth grain beetles going but production is so darn slow...they must be eating their eggs or something


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## a hill

Dendrobait said:


> Im talking about peas riddled with holes that get dumped into vivs by accident
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish there was a bean beetle that was melo sized...itd be the perfect ant sub.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I notice with feuitflies and springs is that often frogs will be "full"on fruotflies bit still readily take springtails.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been keeping sawtooth grain beetles going but production is so darn slow...they must be eating their eggs or something





Yes, basically you don't have fully infested beans by that point. A bean that is infested will not sprout. Whenever I put my inoculated cultures in my tank, I don't have anything sprouting. Molding, maybe, sprouting no. 

I think bean Beatles are best for larger frogs and am still looking for more strains for variety of size and whatnot. It's a bit of a pain since most people kill these things when they see them. 

-Andrew


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## cam1941

Has anyone ever heard of people culturing (Arcilatrus sylvaticus) Lawn shrimp? Seems like these could be a promising new feeder.

Found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOf6Q2goXAY







sports_doc said:


> https://www.facebook.com/groups/872406816143644/
> 
> I think, as a group, we need to do more with nutrition. While termites, pinheads and maggots can help, I believe we still need a easily propagated food like FF's. My thought is we need to work harder at doing aphids correctly in the USA. They are highly praised in Europe for micro geckos and dart froggers but just have not 'caught on' in the US. I've tried, unsuccessfully to sustain cultures of aphids but I am sure as a group we can get this right. I've made a link here...for a repository of information on FB, since that isnt really a 'forum' archive although many of us froggers are there.
> 
> I am hope you will contribute and we can get better foods going here. Not just FF's and 'better' dust, if you know what I mean.


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## Dendro Dave

cam1941 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of people culturing (Arcilatrus sylvaticus) Lawn shrimp? Seems like these could be a promising new feeder.
> 
> Found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOf6Q2goXAY



There have been a few threads in that past. I'm not sure why we don't hear more about them, but I haven't reviewed all the threads yet. Here are the DB Google search results...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Arc...e=UTF-8#newwindow=1&q=dendroboard+lawn+shrimp

----------------

I had an interesting new feeder pop up recently. I got new culture cup lids that had tiny holes instead of that fabric like stuff, and it seems some fungus gnat species (I think) got I there and was breeding. The FF's arrived dead because it was hot and I forgot they were coming and FedEx's knock didn't wake me up. So I'm pretty sure they got in through the lids and didn't arrive in the cultures themselves.

When they breed their butts are stuck together and they drag each other around. They are shiny black and small ff sized, but I think they got through holes to small for even small ffs.

Since the cultures had sat for days without flies I assume they somehow became appetising for the mystery bugs. Trying to start cultures just for them to see it it is possible to do it consistantly.

Anyone know what they are??? ...some type of fungus gnat was my guess.


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## Fumo_6

Kind of an old thread, but was wondering if people still culture pea aphids? Used to hear about them more but not many seem to have stuck with them... If so, would like to hear what people have had success with


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## sack74

I reared many species of aphids, including pea aphids, continuosly for years at work until I retired a few years ago. It's simple, but you have to grow a continual supply of feeder plants to start new colonies. I reared pea aphids on 4 or 5 week old Fava bean plants. Start with 6+ aphids, and in a couple of weeks you should have many, many hundreds. I often got the equivalent of several tablespoons worth of pea aphids from shaking off one plant. I had the luxury of growing my plants in a greenhouse, but you should be able to grow the plants and rear the aphids under lights. Perhaps in a 10 gallon aquarium with a screened lid.


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