# home depot question



## byubound (Sep 5, 2010)

What plants at home depot/lowes are good for the pdf vivarium? JUst a quick question.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

I buy a lot of mine at Lowes and Walmart. They have different types of Bromiliads, lemon buttons, some small ferns, and there are a few others that i don't know the name of them. A lot of the indoor house plants work well for me.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

I get 90% of my plant from Lowes. I wait until they almost kill them and then pick them up for .50 to $1 each. Once they're washed and separated I put them in a viv I set up to revive them . Most of my brom's are purchased from DB sponsors.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

ive gotten Philodendrens, Crotons, Pothos from there, and a few other plants that I cant remember ... anything from the tropical section should be ok ... its more of a trial and error for me ... some grow good, others dont! 

PS. After planting them, if u see tiny metallic silver bugs crawling around your tank a few weeks later, dont panic ... theyre silver springtails! lol 

The plants I got from home depot had them in the soil and they got into my tank and i almost had a heart attack for a long while until i realized what they were ... just make sure u look for spider mites and scale bugs before purchasing.


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

I always make sure to wash and disinfect any plants carefully before they go into the viv. A little 5% bleach solution for 10-15 minutes usually takes care of anything nasty. I've gotten hoyas, philos, Alocasia, begonias and more from Home Depot and Lowe's in the Sacramento area. If your local Walmart has a garden center check there as well. They all carry plants from Exotic Angels. Hermann Engelmann Greenhouses Inc. They have many more kinds of viv friendly plants than I've seen in stores.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vermfly said:


> I always make sure to wash and disinfect any plants carefully before they go into the viv. A little 5% bleach solution for 10-15 minutes usually takes care of anything nasty. I've gotten hoyas, philos, Alocasia, begonias and more from Home Depot and Lowe's in the Sacramento area. If your local Walmart has a garden center check there as well. They all carry plants from Exotic Angels. Hermann Engelmann Greenhouses Inc. They have many more kinds of viv friendly plants than I've seen in stores.


 
There is a problem with plants from sources like home depot etc, in that they have probably been treated with a systemic insecticide which can take weeks to clear from the plant. Rinsing plants exposed to systemics doesn't do any good. 

Ed


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## froggymike (Jan 11, 2010)

I have started to grow plants outside my vivs. They are hanging all around the house to the point where my wife is telling me I am nuts. This is just to let the plants grow out so you can split them up and remove any kind of chemicals that have been used on them. I would say that 90% of my plants were from home depot before, now I try to grow cuttings from other frog friends. I use a substrate when growing out plants similar to what is in my vivs.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> There is a problem with plants from sources like home depot etc, in that they have probably been treated with a systemic insecticide which can take weeks to clear from the plant. Rinsing plants exposed to systemics doesn't do any good.
> 
> Ed


Does this mean that if the plants are not put in the viv for weeks, that the systemic insecticide will be gone? Could I buy a few plants (as I did tonight) and stick them on the plant shelf for a few weeks?


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> There is a problem with plants from sources like home depot etc, in that they have probably been treated with a systemic insecticide which can take weeks to clear from the plant. Rinsing plants exposed to systemics doesn't do any good.
> 
> Ed


Would this really be an issue though, since the frog isn't eating the plant? But then again, if your viv is seeded with microfauna...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> Would this really be an issue though, since the frog isn't eating the plant? But then again, if your viv is seeded with microfauna...


It is less of a concern than if you use microfauna or use feeders like crickets in your vivaria but it should be on the radar as a concern. There was some interesting results that came out of some of the long-term husbandry of parthenogenic whiptails studies and bioaccumulations of trace pesticides and herbicides being a real problem (for the whole discussion see Captive Management and Conservation of Amphibians and Reptiles, 1994, SSAR Publications). 

Ed


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Never had a problem with systemic treated plnts in my vivs. I treated all my stuff with imidacloprid. Furthermore, the concentration required to kill a PDF would be more than any amount of bugs it could eat that would survive eating a plant that was treated with it.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Frogtofall said:


> Never had a problem with systemic treated plnts in my vivs. I treated all my stuff with imidacloprid. Furthermore, the concentration required to kill a PDF would be more than any amount of bugs it could eat that would survive eating a plant that was treated with it.


Toxins still accumulate and remain in an animal's body. Just because the animal is not dead does not mean it hasn't suffered harm or has internal issues. Death is a visible failure; damages to DNA and internal organs are often invisible.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> Never had a problem with systemic treated plnts in my vivs. I treated all my stuff with imidacloprid. Furthermore, the concentration required to kill a PDF would be more than any amount of bugs it could eat that would survive eating a plant that was treated with it.


By itself imidacloprid isn't as big a problem although it is known to do DNA damage to anurans (see abstract here Acute toxicity and genotoxicity of two novel pesti... [Chemosphere. 2004] - PubMed result) in a dose dependent fashion however one of its degredation products is 2-chloropyridine which is very persistent particularly when it gets into the soil. It is also toxic to amphibians and/or invertebrates. 


Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed, would rinsing all the soil off the roots and growing the plant outside of any frog tanks for a month take care of it?


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Support your frog community. Buy from the sponsors and people who post on Dendroboard.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Jason said:


> Support your frog community. Buy from the sponsors and people who post on Dendroboard.


I think all if not most sponsors use systemics on their plants


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> Ed, would rinsing all the soil off the roots and growing the plant outside of any frog tanks for a month take care of it?


I'm sure Ed could better answer this, but the problem I see here is that the various systematics, currently on the market, have different lengths of activity in the plant. Take for example Floramite, it tends to stay effective in the plant for at least a month, according to the label, while others like Orthene,only stay active 7-10 days


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> I think all if not most sponsors use systemics on their plants


http://www.freewebs.com/eatmymuffins/fg.evil.monkey.jpeg


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I'm sure Ed could better answer this, but the problem I see here is that the various systematics, currently on the market, have different lengths of activity in the plant. Take for example Floramite, it tends to stay effective in the plant for at least a month, according to the label, while others like Orthene,only stay active 7-10 days


 
One has to review the data on those reports carefully as even pesticides that can normally degrade quickly can have long-persistence in the form of toxic metabolits in the plants. For example seed treated imidacloprid can have imidacloprid basically clear the plant in around thirty days with the metabolites persisting for more than 90 days (see for example the abstract and article Movement and persistence of [14C]imidacloprid in sugar-beet plants following application to pelleted sugar-beet seed - Westwood - 1999 - Pesticide Science - Wiley Online Library )

There is at leastone paper that indicates Orthene (and its degredation products) can persist much longer than the 7-10 days (see for example http://lib-ir.lib.sfu.ca/bitstream/1892/4797/1/b12128259.pdf ), this is a discussion of the some of the degredation products.. http://ir.lib.sfu.ca/dspace/bitstream/1892/7526/1/b1616605x.pdf

Also there can be significant differences in the effect on plants and its persistence.. 

Ed


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

ChrisK said:


> I think all if not most sponsors use systemics on their plants


Yup and if they don't the people who supply their stock do. 

You'd be hard pressed to find ANY reputable nursery that doesn't use them or some sort of insecticide. I know of a couple very major plant suppliers that use chemicals strong enough to knock a person unconscious. 

It can take months for some systemmics to leave the plant. Some plants have faster growth rates and vascular systems. 

I think a few of you are being just a bit too... Umm... Hypochondriac-like. Ive bred frogs in vivs perfectly fine even using bromeliads that were treated systemically with imidacloprid. Tads and froglets did just fine. Do what you've been doing and I'm sure they'll be fine. Common sense is all you need here.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> Ed, would rinsing all the soil off the roots and growing the plant outside of any frog tanks for a month take care of it?


Rinsing off all of the soil, and growing outside of the tanks for three months should take care of a lot of it... 

That is the problem with systemics is that they or toxic metabolites can persist in the plant tissues for quite a long time..

Ed


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> Toxins still accumulate and remain in an animal's body. Just because the animal is not dead does not mean it hasn't suffered harm or has internal issues. Death is a visible failure; damages to DNA and internal organs are often invisible.


This true of anything. Very broad statement you're making here. 

If the creatures breed and continue to have productive lives, I would say they are not affected.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Frogtofall said:


> This true of anything. Very broad statement you're making here.
> 
> If the creatures breed and continue to have productive lives, I would say they are not affected.


Broad statements such as yours and mine still deserve honest consideration. Just as neither are conclusive, nor should we dismiss them as irrelevant. 

Perhaps it is harmless, perhaps not. But let's not discourage scientific investigation.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Rinsing off all of the soil, and growing outside of the tanks for three months should take care of a lot of it...
> 
> That is the problem with systemics is that they or toxic metabolites can persist in the plant tissues for quite a long time..
> 
> Ed


So, getting back to the original post, do you have a link to information about the specific questions raised there, namely a compilation of names of pesticides and their respective duration in the plants? Or, is this something to be determined specifically with one's plant vendor (not the 'big-name-chain' or retailer)?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Frogtofall said:


> Yup and if they don't the people who supply their stock do.
> 
> You'd be hard pressed to find ANY reputable nursery that doesn't use them or some sort of insecticide. I know of a couple very major plant suppliers that use chemicals strong enough to knock a person unconscious.
> 
> ...


I for one want the whole community's idea on this issue, not one person's 'hope' that everything is 'fine'. I think an investigation is in order for the long term well-being of the frogs, not just in the private interest of a few individuals who feel it's fine as it is. 

BTW a hypochondriac is someone paranoid of illness. I think the word you're looking for is conscientious.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> I think a few of you are being just a bit too... Umm... Hypochondriac-like. Ive bred frogs in vivs perfectly fine even using bromeliads that were treated systemically with imidacloprid. Tads and froglets did just fine. Do what you've been doing and I'm sure they'll be fine. Common sense is all you need here.


 
This can have significant differences depending on the microfauna of the enclosure which is the discussion I was following above.. If you have little or no microfauna in your enclosures, then you are unlikely to see any issues.. however if you do have microfauna then there is a greater chance of issues. I suggest reviewing the reference I provided on the issues with pesticide and parthenogenic whiptails as it took several generations before the issues were seen in the lizards. 

Are you letting a personal stake as a plant vendor get in the way of the discussion as you have started to lable people? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> So, getting back to the original post, do you have a link to information about the specific questions raised there, namely a compilation of names of pesticides and their respective duration in the plants? Or, is this something to be determined specifically with one's plant vendor (not the 'big-name-chain' or retailer)?


I suggest making use of google scholar and searching for examples. There are extensive bodies of literature on different pesticides. You will need to get past the trade names as many articles are published using the generics. 
I provided examples of my points...


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> I suggest making use of google scholar and searching for examples. There are extensive bodies of literature on different pesticides. You will need to get past the trade names as many articles are published using the generics.
> I provided examples of my points...


Thank you Ed.
I have looked there a bit and will look again. I'm going to make 'plant quarantine' a part of my regimen now, namely isolating plants for at least three months if no info is available on pesticides used. Regardless of the vendor/pesticide used, I want to be sure I am doing what is best for my frogs.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> I for one want the whole community's idea on this issue, not one person's 'hope' that everything is 'fine'. I think an investigation is in order for the long term well-being of the frogs, not just in the private interest of a few individuals who feel it's fine as it is.
> 
> BTW a hypochondriac is someone paranoid of illness. I think the word you're looking for is conscientious.


Actually, the word was paranoia. I was trying to be nice. 

You do what you gotta do though. I'm not gonna try to stop anyone from quarantining their plants. It's a good idea not only for chemicals but also for bugs. I'm just saying, I think people worry WAY too much sometimes. Are you the mom that makes their kids wear full body armor when they ride their bike?? (rhetorical)


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Ed said:


> This can have significant differences depending on the microfauna of the enclosure which is the discussion I was following above.. If you have little or no microfauna in your enclosures, then you are unlikely to see any issues.. however if you do have microfauna then there is a greater chance of issues. I suggest reviewing the reference I provided on the issues with pesticide and parthenogenic whiptails as it took several generations before the issues were seen in the lizards.
> 
> Are you letting a personal stake as a plant vendor get in the way of the discussion as you have started to lable people?
> 
> Ed


I don't sell plants anymore and I've said all this before when I did. 

It's impossible NOT to have microfauna in a viv. I've never had one that did t have some kind of mini insect or crustacean thriving in the soil. I understand what you're saying though but sometimes I swear.....


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Frogtofall said:


> Actually, the word was paranoia. I was trying to be nice.
> 
> You do what you gotta do though. I'm not gonna try to stop anyone from quarantining their plants. It's a good idea not only for chemicals but also for bugs. I'm just saying, I think people worry WAY too much sometimes. Are you the mom that makes their kids wear full body armor when they ride their bike?? (rhetorical)


Are you still trying to be nice? 'Cause it didn't work the second time, either. 

This topic is worth researching b/c some types of pesticides persist for many months. I am contacting the major plant supplier of Lowe's, Costa Farms, which supplies 80% of their tropicals, to see what type of pesticide is used. If it is one that is based on lead or sulphur, it would not break down for many, many months, if not years, and continue to be a problem in the viv. I will post what I find here.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> I don't sell plants anymore and I've said all this before when I did.
> 
> It's impossible NOT to have microfauna in a viv. I've never had one that did t have some kind of mini insect or crustacean thriving in the soil. I understand what you're saying though but sometimes I swear.....


The fact that there is a microfaunal population in a enclosure with treated plants, means it is possible for the microfauna to have a sublethal dose of the pesticide which when the microfauna are ingested pesticides may provide doses sufficient to cause problems with the frogs. (there is more and more evidence that microquantities of pesticides and herbicides are a real problem with amphibians*.) Imidacloprid is known to cause DNA damage, which is part of the reason you may not see issues with first generational frogs... DNA damage can cause mortality months to years later (example various cancers). 
In the example I referenced from Captive Mamangement and Conservation of Amphibians and Reptiles (SSAR Publications), microexposure from consumed prey insects from contaminated food sources, resulted in accumulated failure in reproduction over a generational time frame. So the process has occured with captive herps. 


*For some examples see SpringerLink - Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, Volume 39, Number 1 

Immunosuppression in the northern leopard frog (Rana pipiens) induced by pesticide exposure - Gilbertson - 2009 - Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry - Wiley Online Library

ScienceDirect - Aquatic Toxicology : Flow cytometric assay for in vivo genotoxic effects of pesticides in Green frogs (Rana clamitans)


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> Are you still trying to be nice? 'Cause it didn't work the second time, either.
> 
> This topic is worth researching b/c some types of pesticides persist for many months. I am contacting the major plant supplier of Lowe's, Costa Farms, which supplies 80% of their tropicals, to see what type of pesticide is used. If it is one that is based on lead or sulphur, it would not break down for many, many months, if not years, and continue to be a problem in the viv. I will post what I find here.


That time, no... I wasn't.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Ed said:


> The fact that there is a microfaunal population in a enclosure with treated plants, means it is possible for the microfauna to have a sublethal dose of the pesticide which when the microfauna are ingested pesticides may provide doses sufficient to cause problems with the frogs. (there is more and more evidence that microquantities of pesticides and herbicides are a real problem with amphibians*.) Imidacloprid is known to cause DNA damage, which is part of the reason you may not see issues with first generational frogs... DNA damage can cause mortality months to years later (example various cancers).
> In the example I referenced from Captive Mamangement and Conservation of Amphibians and Reptiles (SSAR Publications), microexposure from consumed prey insects from contaminated food sources, resulted in accumulated failure in reproduction over a generational time frame. So the process has occured with captive herps.
> 
> 
> ...


Alright Edward... I don't think I am quite grasping what you're trying to say here. Are you actually suggesting that a mite sized insect that feeds on a plant treated with a systemmic pesticide would survive long enough to be consumed by a Dart Frog in a large enough quantity to actually cause harm to its DNA???

I tried clicking on these but all I get are the general synopses, not the actual papers. From what I can tell, these papers are only talking about amphibians that are physically exposed to these chemicals, not ingesting bugs that have fed on imidacloprid. I thought we were talking about the latter. I completely understand the dangers involved with surface or foliar sprays that are applied to plants that are to be kept with amphibians. Thats a very valid concern (and common sense). People should most definitely wash their plants with soap and water.

I still don't see any problems using plants treated systemmically. I just can't fathom how any of the insects we feed our frogs would ingest these chemicals and then survive long enough to be consumed. Yeah, it _could_ happen but I could also win the lottery tomorrow...

Just so we're all clear... Imidacloprid is not a foliar spray as far as I know. It has to be applied straight to the roots. The foliage would never be sprayed with it. 

I really think that people should just use common sense.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> Alright Edward... I don't think I am quite grasping what you're trying to say here. Are you actually suggesting that a mite sized insect that feeds on a plant treated with a systemmic pesticide would survive long enough to be consumed by a Dart Frog in a large enough quantity to actually cause harm to its DNA???
> 
> I tried clicking on these but all I get are the general synopses, not the actual papers. From what I can tell, these papers are only talking about amphibians that are physically exposed to these chemicals, not ingesting bugs that have fed on imidacloprid. I thought we were talking about the latter. I completely understand the dangers involved with surface or foliar sprays that are applied to plants that are to be kept with amphibians. Thats a very valid concern (and common sense). People should most definitely wash their plants with soap and water.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not sure why you are having a problem following it as the idea has been established regarding pesticides and food chains for a long time. 

You can actually poison yourself or another animal through ingestion of multiple items that contain sublethal levels of a toxin.. Look at food consumption advisories (like for fish with mercury).. The recommended consumption rate could be 1 serving per week.. but if you consume more than one serving then the more you consume the greater the potential problem through not only potentially exceeding toxic threshholds but in accumulating damage. 

Eating one mite that has consumed enough plant to carry a does isn't a problem, but eating a number of them every day for months on end is potentially a problem. This is further compounded when we look at the secondary metabolites of some pesticides (like the one you choose to use) as those secondary metabolites can be as toxic as the original material but persist for a much longer period of time. 

Some types of damage are cumulative such as DNA damage. 

I find it interesting that you are claiming the effects of the pesticides are different in anurans when ingested versus exposure.. can you prove that this is different? 

Given the use of this pesticide as a systemic why would it be more easily taken up via the digestive tract of an insect than a frog? 

Many pesticides including your example are very lipophilic and are going to pass through the lining of the digestive tract as readily as they will pass through the skin... 

When looking at some of the information on the pesticide in question more closely, it is intersting to note that as a soil drench it can remain active in the soil for between 48 and 190 days... Given that it is fairly toxic to birds, I would not be surprised to see similar toxicity issues with anurans (as low as 31 mg/kg).


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Frogtofall said:


> I still don't see any problems using plants treated systemmically. I just can't fathom how any of the insects we feed our frogs would ingest these chemicals and then survive long enough to be consumed. Yeah, it _could_ happen but I could also win the lottery tomorrow...
> 
> Just so we're all clear... Imidacloprid is not a foliar spray as far as I know. It has to be applied straight to the roots. The foliage would never be sprayed with it.
> 
> I really think that people should just use common sense.


Isopods nibble on roots too and pieces of plants. Regardless of where the pesticide is sprayed, that will get into the bugs, which get into the frogs. It's common sense and should be a concern, especially with more frequent applications and with frogs that live next to those plants all their long lives.


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## SunSchein89 (Feb 28, 2010)

I feel like a toddler trying to jump into a conversation with a group of scholars right now , butttt... if my future frogs were going to strictly be pets and I don't have any plans on breeding, should I be worried about this and take more extreme measures than simply washing the plants really well before introducing? I saw someone mentioned (don't feel like going back through thread) that the effects weren't evident until several generations later in the group of lizards being studied. Are there any immediate, imminent dangers I should be worried about if/when I buy plants from big chain stores if the genetics aren't going to be passed on, anyway?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

SunSchein89 said:


> I feel like a toddler trying to jump into a conversation with a group of scholars right now , butttt... if my future frogs were going to strictly be pets and I don't have any plans on breeding, should I be worried about this and take more extreme measures than simply washing the plants really well before introducing? I saw someone mentioned (don't feel like going back through thread) that the effects weren't evident until several generations later in the group of lizards being studied. *Are there any immediate, imminent dangers I should be worried about if/when I buy plants from big chain stores if the genetics aren't going to be passed on, anyway?*


None that have been readily identified yet in dart frogs, but a high enough level of any toxin would have immediate and noticeable effects such as convulsions, shock or lethargy, and if DNA damage is done by a pesticide it would be immediate. However, this does not always mean cancer will follow. You would not likely see any issues for a few generations from frogs affected by small doses of pesticides, and it's not even a given that you would ever notice it anyway or directly link mutations to a pesticide without a study done on it. Investigating the types of pesticides used in HD and Lowe's is still underway (and you don't have to feel like a toddler for asking questions. It's totally fine. We all do it). I will post back on here what I find about HD and Lowe's plant vendors and their pesticide application process.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> None that have been readily identified yet in dart frogs, but a high enough level of any toxin would have immediate and noticeable effects such as convulsions, shock or lethargy, and if DNA damage is done by a pesticide it would be immediate. However, this does not always mean cancer will follow. You would not likely see any issues for a few generations from frogs affected by small doses of pesticides, and it's not even a given that you would ever notice it anyway or directly link mutations to a pesticide without a study done on it. Investigating the types of pesticides used in HD and Lowe's is still underway (and you don't have to feel like a toddler for asking questions. It's totally fine. We all do it). I will post back on here what I find about HD and Lowe's plant vendors and their pesticide application process.


OK, found the info from the Lowe's/HD major supplier, Costa Farms in Florida, which supplies 80% of their plants. They use metaldehyde on the bromeliads, and on vining plants and plants prone to scale or mealybugs they use Talstar (bifenthrin) and they do use a systemic pesticide which they named as 'metachloroprid', but I have yet to be able to truly place it in any directory...
I wonder now if it was fabricated or a 'newer' chemical. If anyone can help find a systemic with a similar name that would fit and is widely used we could look at that one...

Another person that called them got a response to the effect of 'there is no way we could even get near to telling you what we use on your plants'. 

Apparently they must by law tell you what they use on the plants, and it shouldn't be a hassle to find that out. 

I am looking into more natural alternatives or sources that more readily divulge what they spray on their plants.


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## andred82vert (Apr 8, 2008)

i work for the garden department at a home depot, and we have around 3-4 suppliers from different local nurseries. I'll ask what insecticides they use the next time i see the vendors. I do know they use miracle gro / viggoro fertilizers on them....


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

What's the verdict here? I'd like to buy some Pothos from home depot for a buck instead of somewhere else where they probably don't use pesticides for way more money...


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Mitch said:


> What's the verdict here? I'd like to buy some Pothos from home depot for a buck instead of somewhere else where they probably don't use pesticides for way more money...


OK, I may have posted it on another thread, but basically, what I dug up says that there are systemic insecticides used on many of the vining plants like some episcias, and others susceptible to mealy bugs and aphids. 
There is also a snail killer chemical used on the bromeliads, but no systemics. **Note that the stores do not apply pesticides, this is done at the supplier which I contacted.** These chemical names I noted in the post above.

The very good news is that there are no hard, inorganic pesticides used by the suppliers of the plants which go to the Orange Store or Blue Store based on my conversation with the supplier itself. If there were, these might take years (if ever) to fully break down.

The current safe way to go based on this finding is to quarantine plants for three months to allow this to break down before adding microfauna or frogs to the tank, in addition to the standard plant cleaning process, _unless_ it is known that the supplier does not use insecticides (and you can find some like this, usually private hobbyists with plant clippings from their tanks or separate grow tanks). 

Many growers will readily divulge (if it is known) what was used and when it was last used, especially if you emphasize that the plants will go into a tank which houses endangered animals.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Leary of Depot. I very rarely even bother, especially with my local one which 85% are always dead due to lack of light, not being watered it seems for several weeks; the soils are usually BONE dry. Why anyone would purchase even a discount plant... when a good nursery would yield better results and happy inhabitants all around. As the saying goes: You get what you pay for.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> Are you still trying to be nice? 'Cause it didn't work the second time, either.
> 
> This topic is worth researching b/c some types of pesticides persist for many months. I am contacting the major plant supplier of Lowe's, Costa Farms, which supplies 80% of their tropicals, to see what type of pesticide is used. If it is one that is based on lead or sulphur, it would not break down for many, many months, if not years, and continue to be a problem in the viv. I will post what I find here.


Oh! Due share what you discover earthfrog.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> OK, I may have posted it on another thread, but basically, what I dug up says that there are systemic insecticides used on many of the vining plants like some episcias, and others susceptible to mealy bugs and aphids.
> There is also a snail killer chemical used on the bromeliads, but no systemics. **Note that the stores do not apply pesticides, this is done at the supplier which I contacted.** These chemical names I noted in the post above.
> 
> The very good news is that there are no hard, inorganic pesticides used by the suppliers of the plants which go to the Orange Store or Blue Store based on my conversation with the supplier itself. If there were, these might take years (if ever) to fully break down.
> ...





fishr said:


> Leary of Depot. I very rarely even bother, especially with my local one which 85% are always dead due to lack of light, not being watered it seems for several weeks; the soils are usually BONE dry. Why anyone would purchase even a discount plant... when a good nursery would yield better results and happy inhabitants all around. As the saying goes: You get what you pay for.





fishr said:


> Oh! Due share what you discover earthfrog.


Read my quoted posts above. We did establish that there were no hard, inorganic pesticides used, but this was obviously just word-of-mouth after talking to a rep from Costa Farms. I basically had to call several times to get to someone who would tell me what was used (it's a big issue with pesticides in Florida, there have been lawsuits) and another who called was told they don't say what they spray on them...
But, thankfully, nothing sulfur or lead-based. All organics, so they break down in a matter of months. This does not include the issue of harmful chemical by-products from the breakdown of pesticides, but still, it's good to know. I like to stick to known, easily contacted sources.

Oh, and another issue regarding the health of the plants---that is a big one since all the plants in the greenhouse are drenched with untreated city water and often the orchids and more sensitive plants have root rot or are falling apart even before you buy them...not to mention that the 'waterer' on staff is not necessarily a gardener and just comes in every few days to water all the plants.
The standard of care is low b/c they get full credit from vendors at HD. Lowe's gets partial credit, so I'd wager they keep their plants in better shape (plus they have more of them), but it's still a gamble.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Hi Susan,

I missed your post, apologies.

With the info I'm getting, or understanding - or I THINK - I'm understanding, is, avoiding Home Depot plants is the best course of action. 

As for Lowes, once I visited the closest one near me, and there was a staff member pruning and watering the plants. As I walked around inspecting them for heath, everything looked like they were thriving. So for cheap plants if you're willing to play with fire, Lowes might be a better place to check out.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

fishr said:


> As for Lowes, once I visited the closest one near me, and there was a staff member pruning and watering the plants. As I walked around inspecting them for heath, everything looked like they were thriving. So for cheap plants if you're willing to play with fire, Lowes might be a better place to check out.


I usually go to lowes and they have a nice, healthy selection of all sorts of plants. Everytime i go in, the same lady is in the garden center and she takes great care of them. Sure there are a few that are dying and dont look top-notch, but they always have a nice selection of healthy plants at my local store for a decent price. I usually try to buy from the sponsers though, but for a store 3 mins away from my house and buying just a few plants.....not too shabby.

My .02 cents


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

fishr said:


> Hi Susan,
> 
> I missed your post, apologies.
> 
> ...


Hey, no prob. The gardeners there are usually very good and can even special order plants for you sometimes (not as a rule, probably reserved for larger orders). I'm only talking about the waterers, which are separate employees from the outside garden associates. Maybe their experience levels vary from store to store too, but the ones in this area always seemed soggy, rotting and overwatered at both types of stores, esp. in the greenhouse.



Brian317 said:


> I usually go to lowes and they have a nice, healthy selection of all sorts of plants. Everytime i go in, the same lady is in the garden center and she takes great care of them. Sure there are a few that are dying and dont look top-notch, but they always have a nice selection of healthy plants at my local store for a decent price. I usually try to buy from the sponsers though, but for a store 3 mins away from my house and buying just a few plants.....not too shabby.
> 
> My .02 cents


Yeah, Lowe's is better b/c of their plant policies with vendors. Instead of getting a return authorization and chunking suffering plants in the bin, they put them on clearance to get partial credit. Home Depot has a policy where they simply get full credit on plants from the vendor and so the wholesale price is credited back to them and the plants are trashed. That's why there is an overall difference in quality. 

The sponsors on this site and some prominent plant enthusiasts as well have a good selection, which are probably cared for better than the 'big chain stores' and not watered with untreated city water.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

earthfrog said:


> Home Depot has a policy where they simply get full credit on plants from the vendor and so the wholesale price is credited back to them and the plants are trashed. That's why there is an overall difference in quality.


ah, i did not know that. I dont have a HD near me so have not seen their selection. I could see why you would not want to buy your plants there. Seems to me they would "slack" on their care that way.....


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## andred82vert (Apr 8, 2008)

I work for Home Depot, and yes, our vendors thrash several plants (half the times are still alive and healthy) a week to make room for their new shipments. I get pissed because most of the time, I'm the lucky one who has to throw it away in the compactor. The vendors in my particular store are pretty good with their jobs unlike some other HDs or Lowes that I've been to.


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