# Good news, bad news, worse news...



## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, I took one of my cobalts into the vet today. She's been losing weight shockingly fast, and the two males were looking thinner than they should as well. I separated the three frogs that were in the tank, and took the female in, because the vet won't do a fecal unless they actually see the animal first. The bad news is that my cobalts have parasites. The good news is the vet was able to prescribe medication. The worse news is that the vet thought he saw coccidia in the microscopic examination. He wasn't 100% sure, but prescribed TMS (Trimethoprim Sulfa) for it anyway. He said that it might be just egg cases from the roundworms, but it looked like coccidia he'd seen in reptiles. I'm going to get another fecal done for a second opinion, but I'm really hoping he's wrong...


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

If you don't mind me asking, how much did all that cost you?


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Almost $112. The vet did give me enough medicine for all the frogs, though. When I told him I'd like to do fecals more often (like as soon as I get the frogs) he said not to worry about having an office visit in the future. In a 'herd' situation they'd just do the fecal. This vet is rather overpriced ($30 for a fecal!) but they do a good job and I haven't had to do vet visits often enough to make it worthwhile looking around for another vet.


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

Your vet should be able to tell the difference between coccidia and roundworm eggs. The difference in size is a give away plus the overall shape and make up are different. Plus the fact that coccidia is a protozoa and roundworms are not also aids in identification. Coccidia is nasty stuff and a positive diagnosis can be seen with bloating and diarrhea. How are you medicating your frogs? The most effective way is orally but I know you can bath them in it as well. I don't even try oral for the simple fact it stresses them out (unless its large like a tinc and that may be a different story). The sulfa drugs are good for coccidia as well as some bacteria.
Hope the treatment goes well and if you need more info feel free to ask.

Good luck,

Ryan


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

The vet did say they had worms, but he didn't specifically specify what type. The medication he gave me was oral, but I've only done it once and the frogs are already stressing out about it. It's only for 10 days for the TMS, though. The Panacur was prescribed as once today, once 10 days from now, and once 20 days from now. Does anyone have any tips for giving frogs oral medications with as little stress as possible?

The vet showed me how to pry their mouths open with a rubber spatula, but I keep worrying that I'm going to poke them in the eye, which would be disasterous.


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

I don't think there is any really easy way to medicate darts orally. If you were working with a larger species that would be fine but darts are often too small to pry open their mouth. The stress alone could make the situation even worse. Most meds that people use are applied topically to the dorsum. I haven't heard of TMS being applied topically but I have heard of it being used the bath in one paper. The bath requires pretty exact dosaging of equal components within a saline solution. There are other meds you can use but they are not carried normally at vet hospitals (or at least at the ones I have worked at). Panacur (fenbendazole) is often great to use because you can dust the fruit flies if you get the powder form, otherwise you will need to crush it. However, you will need to continue the TMS because the panacur will not cover coccidia. 

Ryan


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, Panacur was the medicine given for the worms, but it's in liquid/paste form.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

This is what I think I'm gonna do... I'm going to put the TMS on the frogs' backs (there were two other cobalts in with her) and just do the Panacur orally. It only has to be given every 10 days, and only one more treatment. The TMS is liquid, so I think it should be OK.


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

I've never use the liquid/paste form. Personally, I have always used the powder form, as have others on this board. Its ten times easier to administer and I'm betting the shelf life is longer. In my experience I haven't even seen anyone use the liquid/paste form unless your talking about medications such as Strongid which will treat the same parasites (for the most part). If you find it hard to administer I would go and ask for the powder form. Vets normally carry it because the packages can be added directly to the pets food. The liquid dewormer is also use alot but is far more effective when administered to larger animals. They do sell pill forms of other drugs like albon, drontal, and primor but they are mostly cat and dog drugs. However, drugs containing praziquantel can be used and some of the following drugs I mentioned contain this.

All in all, I would try to get my hands on at least some powder fenbendazole (Panacur). It will make you life alot easier to dust the flies instead of playing with paste. 

Ryan


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

You can try applying the TMS to the back but I don't know how effective it will be (or if I would do it). A lot of the time there are additives and the solutions are saturated so youre pretty much applying a thicker slurry then. Is the TMS that you have pink or purple? If so I wouldn't apply it to the back. I don't think there would be anything in it to help transport across the membrane.

Ryan


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

No, it's kind of clearish-white color.


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

I guess I would have to see it. All that I can think is that its not compounded with the additives for oral consumption. The TMS we carry is pinkish and has flavoring to it. Its a good drug but its horrible tasting and it makes the patients foam at the mouth which can be a little disturbing if you didnt know that side effect. All I can say is that I'm not a veterinarian or do I claim to know everything about medications. I have just worked with them enough and read enough journals to conclude what I said before. People may possibily apply it topically but from all my literature I have never seen that stated as a means of medicating (other than that bath I mentioned). 

I don't know the strength or the dilution of the mix/solution that you have so its even harder for me to tell you how to adminsiter it properly. Best of luck and if you have any other questions feel free to post.

Ryan


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Good luck with your frogs. I don't envy you needing to administer meds orally to them....it's hard enough to dose orally to larger reptiles/ amphibians. But you are doing the right thing for them so stress or not, it's got to be done.

Any idea how this infection occurred?

Bill


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Update on the cobalts here... So far I've been giving the TMS to them orally. They don't like being picked up, but I'm using latex gloves that I wet down. The frogs get medicated, then moved to a different shoebox. I take the one they've been in and soak it in a weak bleach solution. The frogs look miserable, but they are still eating OK. I'm feeding them daily rather than every other day like the rest of my collection.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I don't want to get into the coccidia thing again but I think it is a good idea to pick up a copy of Amphibian Medicine and Husbandry and read all of the passages about coccidia. There is no doubt that coccidia can be really nasty but there is also little doubt that many animals that have coccidia never show symptoms.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Very true...what is also true is parasites coupled with stress can be even worse for your frog..which is what I think Ryans point was about the oral drugs. To treat or not to treat is a hairy line..sometimes stressing an animal by opening its mouth an spooning meds in can do more harm than good. She did mention that the one frogs was loosing weight initially and I haven't been following the thread long enough to comment on the case..I know Ryans extensive background in vet med and trust his call ( I know he expressed concern at "force feeding" the frog because of stress..maybe you should get a second opinion to see if it is even coccidia or not. This is something a vet should be able to distinguish.

Good Luck,

Mike


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Bad News*

Robin Saunders was at the Cincinnati Zoo when she taught me to take a solo plastic drink cup and cut a little arrow shape out with a point. The plastic was rigid enough to pry open the frogs mouth and with the point not too difficult to insert. That is the way we administered all worming medications, she strongly felt deworming HAD to be done orally.
Robin was an early on NAIB person and bred probably every species of frog that has been in captivity, most of what I learned of the frog hobby came from her. I consider it a real privelege to have learned so much from her while keeping my collection on loan at the Cincy Zoo, even got to help her move Japanese Giant Salamanders (watching a salamander eat a foot long goldfish is pretty impressive).
Mark


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I've heard mention of using the thinnest possible plastic guitar pics. While never having used them for anything other than their intended purpose, I think they might work better than plastic cup slivers as they have a tapered edge and are made from a softer, more pliable material, and might make it easier on the frogs.


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Sorry to hear about the parasites , are 2 of those from the 1.1 that I'd sold you a year ago ? I have been treating all of my frogs (adults) as I had fecals done and found all sorts of nasties ! I was to say the least ,not thrilled . IMO I believe that if you have coccidia infected frogs 1. they can live healthy and reproductive lives 2. you can raise parisite and pathogen free frogs . 
I believe that you can supress the infection and get it in check if the frog is showing signs of ill health .I do not believe that it's good for them to be handeled while treating them ,as said before it adds to stress and that is in my experince a bad thing .
As I stated before I 've been treating and testing all of my frogs ,so far w/ great results (3 months) breeding has greatly increased ,frogs seem to be very active ,clutch quality has also improved . And no deaths w/ the treatments .I have been using Panacur ,and I believe that it is rather safe . But it's in a powder form .
If you need some ,come to the WADS meeting I'll give you some !Also we have a WADS member that dose fecals for trades ,ect......
And as Brent pointed out get the book it's worth every penny, and if you keep alot of frogs it's a must !
Happy frogging ,
Darren Meyer


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Just an FYI, panacur is a dewormer, not an antiprotozoal, and I don't think it has any effect on coccidia.


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Dane yes you are correct panacur is a dewormer ,there is a med from Dr. Frye that is used for supression of coccida . If your coccidia is out of controll then use it


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

It just goes to show you that people who don't expect they have parasites often do. I hold Darren in high esteem, and his parasite situation has no bearing on that once so ever as he is doing the important thing, getting them tested and treated.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Yes, they are the same 1.1 I got from you, Darren. I was going to email you about them when I got a positive or negative on the coccidia. The vet wasn't real sure about it, but he said that what he saw resembled some of the coccidia he'd seen in reptiles. He also thought that they could be empty worm casings, but that he did see a worm in the egg and the casing looked very different. The stuff that Dr. Frye gives out for coccidia is the same stuff my vet prescribed, Trimethoprim Sulfa.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

It is not the same drug Arklier, Dr. Frye has been experimenting with a totally different drug.


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Sorry about he frogs , I would NEVER intentionally sell or give someone sick frogs . Since I had last sold you frogs I have been testing my frogs ,and treating them all . Like I had said before all of them had somthing ! Once I had realized that ,I was REALLY pissed off ! I had recieved all of my frogs from TOP breeders ! Was this the dirty little secret of the hobby that no one had ever addressed ! Yes and no , many have known for along time ,and have made a decision that there is no harm in them carring parasites . While others have taken a more active stance to eliminate all parasties from their collection. I have been trying to do the later . While it is rather difficult to rid a large collection of them all ,tearing down tanks ,cleaning them all ,quaranteening every frog until they test clean ,ect.. you get the idea . I guess that if you buy frogs from anyone ,no matter who ! Have them tested so you know exactly what they have before you add them to your collection . If you want to know ?I would recommend that to all , have it part of your procedures , not just quaranteening them to see if they are eating ,pooping ect ... But if you want to believe that you can have a 100% clean and free collection ,you just might be very dissapointed .
Best advice is to first know what they have , if parsites ,treat for them. If coccidia or giaridia try to keep the numbers in check or get rid of the frogs ! That way if ever there is a problem you already know what they are carring . You have a head start and won't have to post somthing here ,cause by then most of the time it's too late !
IMO coccidia and giaridia are bad very contagious and if left to it's own vices can do alot of damage ,but NOT THE END OF THE WORLD . Just try to keep it in check and revamp you husbandry procedures . I've had too!
Good luck ,
Happy frogging . 
Darren Meyer


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, I lost my second female just a few minutes ago. She had been gaining weight, eating just fine, looking great. Then I went to change them over into other shoeboxes, and found her stretched out and breathing her last. The males both look OK, are eating, having no problems other than just looking skinnier than they should. Fed them dusted fruit flies, everything. The two males ate this morning, but the female didn't and I was worried about her then. But what can I do? Looks like it's time for another necropsy...


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