# What's your take on selling tadpoles?



## mattolsen

This is just a general consensus as to who sells tadpoles? Why or why not? If so, how do you price tadpoles compared to froglet prices? 

I don't generally sell tads, but someone wants to buy them that way to save a buck. I understand wanting to save some money, just trying to figure out what's fair. Anyone who replies, thank you for doing so.


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## SmackoftheGods

I don't sell tadpoles ever. There are too many issues that can arise. I worked out a trade for some of my rarer tadpoles, but just due to mildly different conditions some of them ended up not making it (these are tads that I'm having 98% success with). In the end I don't really want a frogger upset with me because the tadpoles I sold them didn't end up making it. If I have an excess and need to get rid of some I might give them away, but I'll never sell tads.


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## frogparty

I sell tadpoles occasionally. I sell em cheap, and its an as-is situation. No guarantees, but thats why I sell them cheap. Just local sales though, I don't ship tads.
You take a gamble on sls, etc. I woul certainly reccomend purchasing froglets over tadpoles, especially for those newer to the hobby.


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## heatfreakk3

I sell tads every once in a while. I only sell them when I start to get over run by them, so I sell them very cheap. Of course no guarantee they will make it, or not have sls. It's just a gamble the buyer has to take... I would recommend getting froglets. For me, saving a buck to buy tads that may not make it doesn't seem worth it. I rarely buy tads.


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## mattolsen

I have only lost one frog out of roughly 30 from this group of intermedius so what worries me is that if any tads die, I will have a bad rapport. I am an honest guy who does this for fun and I'm willing to help someone out by selling them tads a little cheaper. I just don't want any guff from it. Not too worried about my numbers because this group just keeps producing and has done so for over 5 months nonstop. 

If intermedius froglets are being sold for roughly $70 what is a fair price for tads? I was thinking anything about halfway through for about $40 and if theyre almost sprouting legs I was thinking $55 or so. Is this fair? Or should I adjust? Thanks again.


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## Dendrobatid

Are you shipping tads, or local pick-up only? If you ship tads you really need to have good knowledge on packing them. Also because tads are aquatic they are more prone to water chemistry problems and just plain water differences. That being said, I enjoy getting tads because there is a certain sense of accomplishment that comes from having them morph on premises.


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## frogface

I just watched my first 'tad from someone else' morph and I'm thrilled! If he hadn't morphed successfully, well that's just a chance you take, IMO. I'll probably get tads again in the future. Well worth it to me.


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## earthfrog

I haven't sold tads yet, but if I did it would need to be someone I knew was very responsible as a frogger. I much prefer to raise the frogs to see if they will get SLS or other abnormality---for me it's a quality-control issue for the frogs' sake.


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## frogface

earthfrog said:


> I haven't sold tads yet, but if I did it would need to be someone I knew was very responsible as a frogger. I much prefer to raise the frogs to see if they will get SLS or other abnormality---for me it's a quality-control issue for the frogs' sake.


I have a question(s) . How do you determine whether or not someone is a responsible frogger? Am I responsible frogger? Why or why not?

Really just curious about people's criteria and how they reach those conclusions. I know who I think are responsible froggers but I'm not sure how I came to that conclusion.


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## EricM

I've been in the hobby for a long time, before there was internet and cell phones smaller than a baseball, and tadpoles have always had the stigma of doing poorly once transferred to new water conditions.

I have traded tadpoles and even shipped them with mixed results. Tadpoles ship like tropical fish and that is pretty easy to do with an insulated styrofoam box. Problems seem to arise for tadpoles completing metamorphosis or perishing within the first few months out of the water. This could be a combination of shock to new water conditions, temps, foods, poor husbandry IE dirty water, overfeeding, underfeeding, overcrowding, etc.

It is a risk/gamble transaction, the buyer gets a lower price and the seller doesn't have to raise the tadpole up. In this case it's always the buyer who has a problem or complaint when tads don't morph out into perfect frogs. The best practice is to treat the transaction "as is" no guarantee and hope the buyer is rational and sane.

good luck out there
Eric


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## james67

Dendrobatid said:


> Are you shipping tads, or local pick-up only? If you ship tads you really need to have good knowledge on packing them. Also because tads are aquatic they are more prone to water chemistry problems and just plain water differences. That being said, I enjoy getting tads because there is a certain sense of accomplishment that comes from having them morph on premises.


well not exactly... tads are VERY hardy, much more than froglets, they can take quite a bit of abuse in shipping that frogs just couldnt. they also dont necessarily need to be shipped overnight (if packed well enough). tads are cheaper as well so for those who dont mind the wait and who can find them, its generally the best way to go IMO. of course there are frogs which dont morph well , etc. that should be avoided, but for the most part tads are pretty easy.

james


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## earthfrog

frogface said:


> I have a question(s) . How do you determine whether or not someone is a responsible frogger? Am I responsible frogger? Why or why not?
> 
> Really just curious about people's criteria and how they reach those conclusions. I know who I think are responsible froggers but I'm not sure how I came to that conclusion.


I just do a general screening of their posts to see if they seem like they are knowledgeable enough to be responsible.


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## Dendro Dave

I got no problem with it as long as everyone involved understands what they are getting into. The animals still have a very good chance of making it, and its a way for people to get animals, or more of them then they would normally be able to afford typically. 

Heck if anyone wants to sell me some Benedicta tads let me know, because its going to be quite awhile before I can pay full price for a couple of froglets. I'd be willing to except a little extra risk if it meant I could end up with 4-8 benedicta for the money it would take to buy 2 or 3 froglets. I'd really like at least 4 froglets or a sexed pair but I don't see that happening anytime soon unless someone takes pity on me or is willing to ship tads.


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## Pumilo

Not too many answers hitting your direct question about pricing. I think that pricing is another reason that not too many breeders sell tads. The price is expected to be MUCH lower because of the stated risks involved. The prices I've seen that seem reasonable for tads are like $10 or $20. Possibly up to $25 for any frogs selling under $100. I've seen tads go for more a couple of times on extremely rare "waiting list" type frogs. 
Just one guy's opinion.


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## PeanutbuttER

I don't get why people would be upset at the seller if some tads die on the buyers end. As everyone's already stated, it's the buyer who bears the brunt of the risk on a tadpole sale. Now, if the tad is obviously misformed then the seller is probably at fault, but otherwise I couldn't see myself ever getting mad at someone who sold me tads because a couple (or maybe even all) died in my care. Being smaller and less-developed there's really very little a breeder could do to screen his tads for optimal health (aside from suitable husbandry) before selling. 

The grain of salt here though is that I wouldn't be buying tads from someone I don't know to some degree, but rather from someone I trust and someone who's already having a decent success rate with their own tads. For instance I'd never buy a tad from a pet store...

Prices should be significantly lower for tads though IMO because of that risk. I agree with the 10-15 range for generally kept more hardy species, more if it's a rarer and less available species. I don't have tads for sale, but if I did then that's what I'd probably price them at. What does everyone think of trading tads though and not just straight-out selling them?


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## EricM

James,

I agree with you that tads are pretty hardy and can probably endure most conditons of new water, etc. if they are acclimated by someone with prior frog or fish experience.

When you sell tadpoles to someone who has bred and raised tadpoles themselves it greatly increases the chance that the froglets will morph out successfully. Contrary if you sell tads to someone who just has frogs and has never dealt with tadpoles the opportunity for error increases dramatically just from the learning curve. This scenario is a primary reason for the stigma that tadpoles are more delicate. Most of the requests I get for tadpoles are from beginner hobbyists who are trying to save money or people trying to load up their fledgling businees by buying cheap and flipping for profit. 

The price issue is totally a personal one. In some circles you might hear "what would the union do" (humor here guys)

Personally I already spend hours a week with tadpoles and selling them "cheap" has no benefit as I am not trying to unload them as time/work burden.

just some thoughts
Eric


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## Scott

Whenever I've seen tadpoles for sale - the very first thought I normally have is "not able to get them to morph properly yet they want to get _something_ for them ... ".

Whether this is correct or not - it is *always* my first thought.

s


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## frogparty

The last time I sold a bunch of tadpoles I was moving, and just didn't want to bother moving them all to my new house. 
I would say 1/2 price of a froglet is pretty reasonable for pricing for cheaper frogs. I think I was selling leuc tads for $15 bucks, I would sell a froglet for $30

I would probably pay 1/3 price for an expensive tadpole. S say I wanted std. lamasi tads, Id pay $50 for one, and froglets sell for $150

For a benedicta tad, Id probably pay $100


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## davidadelp

Pumilo said:


> Not too many answers hitting your direct question about pricing. I think that pricing is another reason that not too many breeders sell tads. The price is expected to be MUCH lower because of the stated risks involved. The prices I've seen that seem reasonable for tads are like $10 or $20. Possibly up to $25 for any frogs selling under $100. I've seen tads go for more a couple of times on extremely rare "waiting list" type frogs.
> Just one guy's opinion.




I agree. I buy tads just because its what I can afford. I assume the risk and go from there. I bought 6 tads while I was in TN from Chesney all are still doing great about to come out of the water


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## laylow

SmackoftheGods said:


> If I have an excess and need to get rid of some I might give them away, but I'll never sell tads.


 Jake, you know I live right up the street right? 

I know people get overwhelmed with tads at times. I know with tincs they are generally a very hardy tad and with an experienced seller and buyer you may have good outcomes. I feel like thumbs are a different story. I have seen lots of deaths when shipping thumb tads, I have seen, like Jake was saying, SLS issues where the breeder had none before. 

Personally I have never sold a tad and dont plan on it. I feel as if its our duty to raise them to a point where they are healthy and happy then sell the froglet. Also, tads ususally sell for 1/3rd the price of the actual froglet. . . . 

Hope this helps

Shaw


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## PeanutbuttER

laylow said:


> Jake, you know I live right up the street right?
> 
> Shaw


That's the exact same thing I was thinking.

Jake, remember that I am almost quite literally right up the road from you .


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## Topete

$20 to $30 is a fair price. it is up to you if you give a morph-out guarantee.


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## Dendrobatid

james67 said:


> well not exactly... tads are VERY hardy, much more than froglets, they can take quite a bit of abuse in shipping that frogs just couldnt. they also dont necessarily need to be shipped overnight (if packed well enough). tads are cheaper as well so for those who dont mind the wait and who can find them, its generally the best way to go IMO. of course there are frogs which dont morph well , etc. that should be avoided, but for the most part tads are pretty easy.
> 
> james


I'm sorry your entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree. You didn't touch on the water chemistry issues at all. Also what do you think the difference would be if a delivery person dropped a box on a concrete floor, the box with the tadpoles (Keeping in mind water weighs about 7 pounds per gallon) would hit with much greater damage to the occupants then the box with the frogs packed in deli cups with moss and the deli cups surround by shredded newspaper. What if the tads are not shipped in oxygen, frogs would still be able to respire, the tadpoles will not once oxygen runs out and they are left in a bag with their own nitrogenous waste.


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## Dendro Dave

Dendrobatid said:


> I'm sorry your entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree. You didn't touch on the water chemistry issues at all. Also what do you think the difference would be if a delivery person dropped a box on a concrete floor, the box with the tadpoles (Keeping in mind water weighs about 7 pounds per gallon) would hit with much greater damage to the occupants then the box with the frogs packed in deli cups with moss and the deli cups surround by shredded newspaper. What if the tads are not shipped in oxygen, frogs would still be able to respire, the tadpoles will not once oxygen runs out and they are left in a bag with their own nitrogenous waste.


You may or may not be right about tads not being hardy but just a few corrections to your physics here.... First a near neutral buoyancy object like a tad suspended in water isn't going to smash down to the bottom of the container when the box is dropped (at least not very hard). 

The box being heavier because of water may hit harder, but the tad may actually feel less impact then a frog in a deli cup because of the water buffering its decent. The tad is basically floating in a shock absorber. If the tads are packed correctly there should be plenty of oxygen in the water to last them several days. 

If they are packed with nearly no air bubble in the container, like almost a vacuum then the water shouldn't move as much and won't slosh the tad around. You can do this by filling the container till the water nearly overflows and the surface tension causes the water to make a dome, then put the cap on as carefully as possible so as not to let an air bubble in. 

As usual how likely they are to survive shipping and arrive with a minimum of stress is going to highly depend on how well they are packed. After that acclimating them like tropical fish is probably a good idea, mixing some of the new water with the old and making sure the temps match etc..etc...


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## Azurel

I highly doubt that that the bio functions of a tad of most if not all species of dart frog is fast enough for them to foul water they are shipped in in a 24hr/48hr period. So water chemistry in all honesty shouldn't be an issue keeping in mind that they are shipped in more water then a brom or film canister. If shipped in 16+ ounces of water I cannot for see a tad fouling the water in the short a period of time being shipped. Same thing with oxygen if packed in enough water they should be fine as well as I am willing to bet their respiratory rate will decrease do to the darkness of the package and the water will contain enough oxygen. Having had 1000's of dollars of marine fish shipped 24/48 hrs which are more incline to shipping stress and have a higher bio function rate then tadpoles I have only lost a few fish over the 25 years of reefing. In every case it was temp issues that caused the deaths either to hot or cold that killed them or stressed them to secondary infections.

I have seen some higher end frog tads like Standard lamasi offered for $75 a tad all the way down to vents for $15....If I was to buy them in each case I assume all risks I think that should be a standard approach to buying them.


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## Dendrobatid

As far as shipping I was referring to the fact that if the shipment gets delayed or lost then the tads are in trouble. It seems that people are basing their comments on the premise that everyone knows how to properly pack tadpoles. If everything is packed perfectly then your chances of successfully shipping the tads definitely increases. What about the physiological changes going on in the tadpole that you can't see. You can honestly tell me that you are sure that there may not be any negative impact on a tad if it shaken like a margarita when is has a physiological transformation going on, (Ex. Leg formation). I just feel that unless it's absolutely necessary why take the chance. Why not wait until the frog is old enough and eating and growing normally to ship it. I feel that in order to just save money, it's pretty risky. If you're really concerned about your frogs best interest why not wait until you are relatively sure that they can physically handle shipping.


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## PeanutbuttER

Or why not wait until you can buy them locally and skip shipping them altogether. 

Where are the people who have experience buying and shipping tads?

Also gotta say that I agree with a tad in water being better buffered against any sudden movements or falls than a froglet who doesn't have the water buffer.

Personally I'd love to have some tadpoles and raise them up to froglets and adults. Since the frogs I have wont be breeding for some time I can see the appeal of buying tads from someone else, especially if that person has extra tads that they don't want necessarily to care for. Seems like a win win situation. Wouldn't it be awesome to have your first experience with a species be with a tadpole? Instead of knowing immediately what it will look like you get to watch it form and develop . I think that would be a lot of fun.


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## frogface

How can anyone think that selling tads is a bad idea after they see this beauty? 









eta: OOW March 13, 2011
eta2: This little fella was purchased by a friend, traveled quite a long distance by train, and given to me, as a young tad.


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## Roadrunner

I did a trade of 100 tads for 100 tads and only got 7-8 to morph while he got most of them to morph. I later found out that he hadn't been getting much success w/ his tads. It happened another time w/ another person where I traded a breeding pair of frogs for tads that never formed front legs and they were already colored up when they were shipped(bad sls tads about to morph). That's the last time I got tads.
Make sure your not buying something w/ a low chance of morphing. Although, sometimes w/ constant breeding the health of the tadpoles can wane. So former success still doesn't guarantee anything.


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## Allyn Loring

Generally tads that are posted are sold fairly quickly. I purchased over a dozen couple years ago all morphed and all are healthy ! I agree the seller should have experience so as to diminish possible disappointment !I personally do not sell tads.Good luck with whatever you decide!
Allyn


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## DJboston

I would never sell tads as I'd prefer to see all of mine morph. But, I wouldn't mind buying a few here and there to save a little money on species I'm in no rush on breeding. Selling is one thing and I really just wouldn't want to, but trading locally would be sweet. I have limited space and a very specific want list for my collection so I need to save available frog money for those species I want. But a free local trade and a chance to morph out something different than I already am would be fun. I could raise the froglets as large as I want or sell, or end up keeping a pair if I enjoy them. 

Too bad I didn't have unlimited space, time, and money as I love all dart frogs. Just made a frog trade to a big name frogger. I got an amazing deal as he was very generous. Even then, I still feel bad about watching some frogs go. lol I never had heart ache selling froglets I bred here though. 

I see the reason to unload tadpoles if you have too many or don't feel like raising them up. Just make sure you know the tadpole track record and there are no guarantees.


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## james67

Dendrobatid said:


> I'm sorry your entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree. You didn't touch on the water chemistry issues at all. Also what do you think the difference would be if a delivery person dropped a box on a concrete floor, the box with the tadpoles (Keeping in mind water weighs about 7 pounds per gallon) would hit with much greater damage to the occupants then the box with the frogs packed in deli cups with moss and the deli cups surround by shredded newspaper. What if the tads are not shipped in oxygen, frogs would still be able to respire, the tadpoles will not once oxygen runs out and they are left in a bag with their own nitrogenous waste.


my "opinion" is not entitled rather its informed, from a decade of personal experiences. now i dont mean to sound like an @sshole, but your statement about bags (like fish are packed in, im assuming) shows that you really dont have any experience on the subject. tads are shipped in solid containers, usually vials containing less than a half cup of water (not a gallon, which weighs 8.3 lbs). in fact shipping frogs as you describe isnt the smartest thing either, since moss can suffocate the animal. 

my point... dont be condescending with your responses when you dont know EXACTLY what your talking about.

how many tads have you shipped/ received? what species, what happened that led you to believe that it isnt as or more safe than shipping frogs?

james


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## Dendrobatid

mattolsen said:


> This is just a general consensus as to who sells tadpoles? Why or why not? If so, how do you price tadpoles compared to froglet prices?
> 
> I don't generally sell tads, but someone wants to buy them that way to save a buck. I understand wanting to save some money, just trying to figure out what's fair. Anyone who replies, thank you for doing so.


This individual is asking for a "general consensus"-

–noun, plural -sus·es.
1.
majority of opinion: The consensus of the group was that they should meet twice a month.
2.
general agreement or concord; harmony. 

Meaning he wanted to know what people thought. He didn't ask for a debate, or for you to comment on others opinions. I'm sure that you are the worlds foremost authority on shipping tadpoles. I am not going to get into a discussion with cowardly now-it-alls that hide behind an electronic safety wall. If you didn't agree with my opinion that is absolutely your right. But no one asked you in the first place! You don't know me or know what I have done on a professional basis! By the way so as not to encourage you to amaze me with your world renowned knowledge on shipping tadpoles. I will take the high road and not be posting on this matter further. Your behavior is way off post! Get in touch with me when you grow up!


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## evolvstll

james67 said:


> my "opinion" is not entitled rather its informed, from a decade of personal experiences. now i dont mean to sound like an @sshole, but your statement about bags (like fish are packed in, im assuming) shows that you really dont have any experience on the subject. tads are shipped in solid containers, usually vials containing less than a half cup of water (not a gallon, which weighs 8.3 lbs). in fact shipping frogs as you describe isnt the smartest thing either, since moss can suffocate the animal.
> 
> my point... dont be condescending with your responses when you dont know EXACTLY what your talking about.
> 
> how many tads have you shipped/ received? what species, what happened that led you to believe that it isnt as or more safe than shipping frogs?
> 
> james


Now I have not shipped tads personally. I have however on several occasions received shipped tads. None were shipped in solid containers. All were shipped individually, double bagged just like you would take a fish home from the store. My presonal experience on the tads (most often tinc / galac species), is...........usually great success at them morphing. However, about a 50percent success rate with them living past a few months. Similar to what EricM mentioned in his previous post.


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## james67

take the "high road" then...

i believe my original comments accurately addressed the "Why or why not?" part of the OP's post, by describing how tads are more easily shipped and how i personally feel (along with many others, as a general statement) that in many instances they are MUCH more hardy than froglets. 



evolvstll: thats strange, ive always had tads in hard plastic containers. its worked very well.

james


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## SmackoftheGods

I'm in the slow season right now. I'm trying to get everything to cycle into breeding season again. If I'm successful this spring with as many of the species as I hope then I'll definitely end up being bogged down and you Utah froggers will be the first to know, I promise (even _giving away_ tads I'd still refuse to ship them). What it really means is that you guys need to be praying that I get everything going!


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## PeanutbuttER

Well, here's wishing you the best this spring then


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## Dendro Dave

james67 said:


> take the "high road" then...
> 
> i believe my original comments accurately addressed the "Why or why not?" part of the OP's post, by describing how tads are more easily shipped and how i personally feel (along with many others, as a general statement) that in many instances they are MUCH more hardy than froglets.
> 
> 
> 
> evolvstll: thats strange, ive always had tads in hard plastic containers. its worked very well.
> 
> james


My understanding was they are generally shipped in solid containers also. Franky I'd insist on it, packed with no air bubble so the water doesn't slosh. It seems to me most of the risk associated with tads beyond packing is getting ones from someone who is having a high success rate of morphing out. Getting them from someone only morphing out 50% or having lots of sls, and your chances just go downhill. Then its up you you to acclimate them properly and assuming you don't have jacked up water conditions they should generally do ok for you.


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## WeeNe858

I've bought tads locally, 5 orange P. Terribilis to be exact. I had one morph with sls and I'm down to my last tad... the rest didn't make it. If I am able to raise this last one then my money won't be wasted. 

I am a novice but I have experience with fish and the finer side of that hobby. I considered myself able to care for tadpoles and the amount I was saving for the possibility of 5 froglets for the price of one frog was appealing to me. I am going to purchase tads again, and this time I'll have more experience. I recommend tads if you don't mind a gamble.


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## B-NICE

I have 1 of 3 Amazonic tads I brought. The one that is still alive was also much bigger than the other 2. I paid $25 for them. When you buy tads, you should hope for the best prepare for the worst.


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## WendySHall

I've only shipped a few tads which I gave away (double bagged like fish in an insulated container with Phase 22) and they arrived just fine. Never heard of any problems with them.

I've found that the most important things when it comes to buying tads is...
#1. Know how they are being raised (water, food, feeding schedule, temps, etc) and if you need to change something, acclimate them slowly.
#2. Buy only from a reputable breeder/hobbiest or suffer the consequences.

I've purchased tads three times...

First purchase - (Reputable breeder/hobbiest) - A few Terribilis tads which I picked up from the breeder. They morphed out beautifully, but unfortunately, one escaped unbeknownst to me (those little suckers are fast!) and we didn't find him until the next day, so that was my fault.  But the other two are now about 16/17 months old, gorgeous and healthy frogs, and hopefully will be breeding soon. (Fingers crossed!)

Second purchase - (Reputable breeder/hobbiest) - Several Giant Orange and Matecho tads which were shipped to me. They all arrived fine. Only one didn't make it completely through morph. I don't fault the breeder though because I know that things can happen that only God knows why. The remainder are now about 4 months old and some very active and beautiful little guys!

Last purchase - (Breeder?/Hobbiest? with a rocky past that I'd read he was trying to change) Purchased a few Bakhuis tads which were shipped to me. Was told they would arrive the next day, but the po had them scheduled for two day. However, they did arrive at my po late the next day so since I was watching the tracking, I ran to the po and begged them to let me take them home. They did. When I got them home, I opened up the package to find that there was no Phase 22 as he stated there would be (temps were 50's/30's) and worse yet...they were packed in condiment cups which had leaked the water out! Needless to say, 3/4 didn't make it. When I asked about replacement, I was told I'd have to pay shipping again! After thinking about it overnight, I foolishly decided to go ahead and give it one more try. When I tried to pay through PayPal, I was told that his account could no longer accept payments! I sent him an email telling him this. The response I received after a few days was something to the effect of "Please resend your message, I accidentally erased all my messages." So I did. It's been several days again with no reply. I guess some people (me) just have to be beat in the head with the stupid stick every once in a while.

So, to reiterate...
KNOW who you're buying from...ask around for opinions.
KNOW how they are being kept before they are sent to you and acclimate slowly.

And if you're the one shipping...
DON'T use condiment cups!
INCLUDE some type of temperature control!

Okay...my tirade is over. Thanks for taking the time to listen.


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## mattolsen

After my consensus I think I'm gonna stick with just raising my own. Even though I know it's nice, as someone on a budget, to buy tads I just put too much work into my frogs that I don't want to think either myself, or the buyer might be responsible for killing one of my tads. I posted that I may bring some tads to frog day and even that was crazy. I had a ton of replies for frog day and shipping. I understand saving the money, I guess I was on the fence about it and decided against it. 

You guys are right, what makes a responsible frogger, how do you know you'll get a tad that'll morph out healthy, and why take the risk? That's what I'm thinking. I think I'd sell some tads locally that are pretty far along or use them as a local trade if I had too many to keep up with, but will generally stay away from doing so. Thanks for all the advice. Hope I didn't spark a vicious debate.


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## Zoomie

Wow, really surprised about all of the problems.

I have been involved in shipping approximately a few hundred tads over a couple of shipments. Mostly Tincs and nothing crazy. Condiment cups. Surface tension air bubble with 360 degree tape. Stacks also taped 360 degrees. Insulated box with newspaper filling even the tiniest space. Phase packs. 

To my knowledge, none were lost and all arrived alive. I'll have to ask about morph success rate but I would imagine the buyer would have pitched a fit if they had a problem with any more than say, a single tad. I will verify to be certain.

Wendy, I feel for you as you got taken for a ride on the Bakhuis deal. I PM'd you. Out of respect to all those that help here, I will replace your losses with either tads or (if you're smart) froglets at no charge. I'll even split shipping with you.

Any friend of Bakhuis is a friend of mine !


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## Ed

Zoomie said:


> To my knowledge, none were lost and all arrived alive. I'll have to ask about morph success rate but I would imagine the buyer would have pitched a fit if they had a problem with any more than say, a single tad. I


The pitch a fit thing, is the problem. It is way too easy for a person to have issues with tadpoles that have nothing to do with the breeder but be able to run around and claim you sold them bad tadpoles. Think if a person ended up with a thread on the Board of Inquiry how you would try to defend that it wasn't your fault (particularly since we now know that poor supplementation of adults is a significant contributor to spindly leg)..... 

Ed


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## Zoomie

Ed said:


> The pitch a fit thing, is the problem. It is way too easy for a person to have issues with tadpoles that have nothing to do with the breeder but be able to run around and claim you sold them bad tadpoles. Think if a person ended up with a thread on the Board of Inquiry how you would try to defend that it wasn't your fault (particularly since we now know that poor supplementation of adults is a significant contributor to spindly leg).....
> 
> Ed


As usual Ed, excellent point. 

In this case, they are going to an experienced veteran. 

I keep stellar records of all clutches/morphs/froglets and the ultra rare loss (which still breaks my heart). Even then, it wouldn't constitute proof as people could argue that I manufactured all of my records.

I have never sold tads 'retail' and am uncomfortable doing so for a host of reasons. As corny as it sounds, I could care less about the money. This is a hobby. The word hobby is Latin for "flush money down the toilet." 

I am curious to know though and will ask. Most importantly, I am certain that I will get a truthful answer.

And while I am at it, thanks for all that you do Ed. You have no idea how much that I have learned from your posts and conversations.


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## Gamble

Zoomie said:


> And while I am at it, thanks for all that you do Ed. You have no idea how much that I have learned from your posts and conversations.


I agree! ... even when hes talking in a language that some us cant understand


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## Ed

Zoomie said:


> I have never sold tads 'retail' and am uncomfortable doing so for a host of reasons. As corny as it sounds, I could care less about the money. This is a hobby. The word hobby is Latin for "flush money down the toilet."


In the many many years I've kept stuff at home, I've given away far more animals than I've ever sold....so you can easily see how I'm not really interested in the moola... 

Ed


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## Gamble

Ed said:


> In the many many years I've kept stuff at home, I've given away far more animals than I've ever sold....so you can easily see how I'm not really interested in the moola...
> 
> Ed


Well Ed, if youre ever in a giving mood ... please think of me


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## cobraden

I've bought tads in the past. That was years ago, They were shipped in a film container and arrived just fine. After a few weeks they morphed out fine as well. It was a great experience and I plan to do it again soon.


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## TyGuy

I like to buy the tads. Not only are they cheaper, but I appreciate watching them grow. I have only ever found one person that i've been able to purchase them from, I love it. I understand the risks of loosing them is greater, but so far everything has gone well. I only buy larger species frogs, no thumbnails. So with that being said - if anyone has and tads they want to sell, let me know!


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## pdfCrazy

Well, I'm gonna throw my two cents in, even if you got the answers you were lokking for, others may read this thread ata later date. I just re-entered the hobby after a 12 year absence. This time around, I've only ordered froglets/subadults from breeders....but not because I'm uncomfortable with, or don't approve of buying/selling tadpoles. I'm anxious for my frogs to be of breedign age. Bu the last time I was in the hobby, I purchased many frogs as tadpoles from a wide array of individuals, and I'm glad to say I had a 100% morph out rate, not a single casualty. These were standard lamasii, imitators, and lotsa tincs. Shipments came in both fish bags, or (and the better choice IMO) hard plastic water bottles, like soda bottles. The shipments I recieved were both overnight, and even ground!!. I found tads to ship extremelly well as long as care is taken. containers should be filled primarily with water. Tadpole oxygen consumption is very low I suspect. Most plastic bottles were of the 12-20 oz size and about 4/5 water. I find appropriate prices for tads definetly depend on the species. More common species, say auratus and many tincs and leucs, about 1/4 to 1/5 of froglet price. The rarer or more "in demad" a frog, the % of froglet price increases more. But I would never pay more than about 45% of froglet price, regarless of the species, rarity, or how "in demand" they are. I really would not recomend this route for beginners, except with the more easy to rear species. Myself, I'm open for cheap matecho tincs, giant orange, and Summersi tadpoles in the near future.


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