# can you mix darts?



## k2bordr03 (Jul 15, 2004)

ok enough about the others. theyve been pulled out. so now i am wondering if i can maybe add some more frogs to my 70 gal because all i have is a single azureus. and he is a juvie. can i add a tinc? like a citranella? and another azureus? i would like to have more than one type of frog in this jungle of mine so if any of the admins could help i would appreciate the help and i already know about the temper of females. so if anyone can help thanks.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Mmm, tincs and azureus are closely related, enough so that they will interbreed, and the females might take offense at one another. It is generally recommended that the types be kept as pairs only, but some people have reported keeping them in groups of single morps/species with varying degrees of success. If you want to mix them, and don't care about breeding, then you could try it with different morphs. Just make sure that there are no bodies of water in the tank that are deep enough for them to drown in if one female pins another. 

If you do want to breed them, I would suggest getting frogs of different genera, such as Phyllobates or Epipidobates. Most of them do great in groups. Another possibility is pumilio, but they are expensive, and might be stressed out by the presence of the azureus. 

I had the same consideration: a large tank that I wanted to have many frogs in. I settled for leucs, though I may get terribillis and put the leucs in a 20 gallon long.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

Hi,

German frogs specialists keep sometimes two different genus in a same big tank.. but they are specialist, it is not to do when you're a beginner..

To mix species in a big tank, they keep:

-a big terrestrial specie with a small arboreal specie:
D. azureus + D.imitator
D. tinctorius + D.ventrimaculatus
(do not mix pumilios because they are very territorial)...

-a Dendrobates species with a small Phyllobates species:
D. auratus with P.vittatus
D. azureus with P.lugubris
...

-few breeders mix Epidobates tricolor with a Dendrobates sp. or Phyllobates sp., but tricolor are very aggressive...

Once again if you want to have easily good and healthy frogs and to see them to breed, don't mix species :wink:


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

Brandon,

This discussion has already taken place many times. You will find that 99% of the people in this community are adamantly against mixing any frogs that can breed. You will also find that the community has no problem letting you know this. As for you juvi male needing roommates, you could easily have a large group of azureus in that tank, which would be really cool. If you start throwing in other frogs in, like tincs and leucomelas, you are going to have the potential for some funky looking froglets. If you do feel the need to mix either destroy the eggs that are laid or keep every froglet produced. It is difficult enough to keep track of the bloodlines as is, we don’t need hypomelanistic carrottail reduced spot oyozureus floating around the hobby.

~Joe


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

hicksonj said:


> It is difficult enough to keep track of the bloodlines as is, we don’t need hypomelanistic carrottail reduced spot oyozureus floating around the hobby.
> 
> ~Joe


HAHAHA!! I got a kick out of that, Joe!

-Bill J.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

I dont know much about day geckos, but they are pretty big. if u put a thumb nail, like an imitator might it not be eaten by the gecko or the chameleons. 

On a side note though, not saying that i approve or disapprove of what u are doing but at the baltimore aquarium they have terrariums in which they have all means of different animals. In one i think they had a emerald treesnake, a really big spider and some different species of idividual pumilo. The woman says that if u keep them well feed they dont hunt each other.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

The thing that you need to keep in mind is that those are very large tanks at NAIB, and they have 3 professional herpetologists with an extrordinary amount of experience keeping an eye on it throughout the day. I have mixed things in the past and it has worked out well. I didn't do it for many years though. I'm not suggesting what anyone should do, I just think you would be wise to know the species well separately for some time before mixing them. 
j


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## Anthony Jackson (Jul 16, 2004)

JOE

       Although i am at home sick with strep throat today you put a smile on my face.......Not to make fun of the person who made ther original post but your reply is killer....... :twisted:


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

ure right they are probably really experienced and informed but one of the pumilos had a broken leg or otherwise messed up leg and the guy i told didn't really seem to care and otherwise no one seemed to have noticed, but agian im just making an observation.


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## k2bordr03 (Jul 15, 2004)

so if im not worried about breeding than its ok to mix? i will only have like 5 or 6 frogs at most in the tank. for the hypo whatever joe said im not gonna do anything with the X darts prolly just keep em. if i sell any they will definetely only be the original breed. if i do have X breeding will i get any cool new types of frogs? or will they be all messed up? im definetely not a breeder, i just like to keep em and know all about the frog itself and dont really worry about what bloodline im gettin from my own frogs. im not really sure how much of this is making sense cus its like 1 and i've been up and working all day. could i put a citranella in? i am working for a local herp shop the 7 and 8th and i want him to pick me up some dartsat the reptile show in salt lake. i want to get another azureus and was thinking about a cobalt tinc or a citranella. o yea and for all those worried about my phelsuma i pulled him out today.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

All the pictures of hybrids I've seen have looked okay, but if you mix frogs that will interbreed, then you must be diligent in destroying the eggs. Allowing frogs to interbreed and then deliberately releasing them into the general breeding population is the one topic around here that gets more of a hate on than mixing species.


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

As far as the Baltimore Aquarium goes, they have beautiful but not necessarily practical displays. I know that with alot of the fish displays they have to frequently restock the fish that got eaten or picked off. I think neon tetras and other small fish have a hard time surviving in the large displays. They are one of my favorite fish but they are also a favorite snack for other fish. 

I don't know how often they replace the frogs, but also keep in mind the size of their enclosures. Not many of us have tanks large enough to walk in. I would hope that they keep breeders in a lab setting and unmixed. 

I hate to say it but I think the Barnes and Noble Bookstore at the harbor has a better Amazon display than the aquarium. They have gigantic angelfish and always have fish breeding.


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

Most larger zoological institutions have at least one or two cages housing multiple species of herps on display. They do this to attract interest, to draw attention and to get the general public curious about animals that they never cared about before. If you think about it, what's more interesting to average Joe, a terrarium containing one color of frog or a terrarium containing four different colors of frog? Their main goal with display tanks is to educate the public and not to set examples for fellow herpetoculturists. I think that the payoff of getting the public interested in reptiles and amphibians after seeing a mixed species terrarium at a zoo is greater than the cost of the occasional lost frog or other herp (which I doubt happens often.) Also, the NAIB has an immense amount of dart frogs in seperate breeder tanks behind the scenes, you can see pictures at http://www.frogfiend.com/naib2000/naib2000.htm#frogroom I love that site, it's jaw-dropping.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2004)

Ya that i knew. Aren't they a leader in breeding? I know alot of zoos get there frogs from the baltimore aquarium and have exhibits on loan from them. 

And bgexotics and Devin are right the tanks are really unpractical and i guess since they are just to look good maybe they aren't the best example of the rest of their animals. After all they are a leader in breeding of darts, and after all they should be they make a fourtune compared to most reaserch and breeding programs.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2004)

First let me introduce myself....I am a full time aquarist at the National Aquarium in Baltimore and have been for 10 years. That being said I am not a professional herpetologist by any means, but have been an avid dendrobates hobbyist for about 8 years. And therefore know many of the herpetologists very well and spend time with them in the Rainforest. Usually I do not chime in on subjects such as this in any number of forums I belong to but a lot of mis-information has been given out here about NAIB that I wish to address.

First off bgexotics I would like to know your sources of information for you have just posted untrue statements about NAIB such as....


> I know that with alot of the fish displays they have to frequently restock the fish that got eaten or picked off.


Predation does indeed happen but it is very infrequently. For the most part all of our exhibits are very stable. We have even had many different animal for over 20 years.

But I am glad also glad to read the following quote from bgexotics...


> I hate to say it but I think the Barnes and Noble Bookstore at the harbor has a better Amazon display than the aquarium. They have gigantic angelfish and always have fish breeding.


The tank in the Barnes and Noble in Baltimore was designed, built and is maintained full-time, by NAIB staff. So I guess NAIB does have 2 great Amazon displays in Baltimore.

And I have to address one last post from furizzl....


> ure right they are probably really experienced and informed but one of the pumilos had a broken leg or otherwise messed up leg and the guy i told didn't really seem to care and otherwise no one seemed to have noticed, but agian im just making an observation.


and 


> and after all they should be they make a fourtune compared to most reaserch and breeding programs.


We don't actually make money selling frogs. Often times we will donate or loan frogs and other animals to fellow zoos and aquariums that wish to display them.

Without knowing who you talked to furizzl I can only speculate that you may have pointed out the injured frog to one of our volunteer exhibit guides. We have over 400 volunteer guides and we all wear the same uniform. It is highly possible that the guide then directed your concern to the husbandry staff. NAIB prides itself on the quality of care that we give our animals as I know all of you dedicated to this forum do. We employee 2 full time and one part time veterinarians that specialize in the animals in our collection. If a problem needed to be addressed I can assure that it would have been looked at.

Now I apolgize if I stepped on anyones toes, but I am passionate about NAIB and the care that we provide our animals and the displays we are able to have. It is true we have many exhibits that have dendrobates with larger lizards, snakes, and turtles. But we also have an enormous breeding room where animals are paired off for breeding. The goal of our exhibits is not breeding the goal of the exhibit is to dispaly an ecosystem and many of the animals that inhabit it, so I fail to see how this is impracticle or not.

The important thing to remember here is that all interested communities the zoo/aquarium professionals, the hobbiests, and the researchers can all learn a great deal from one another. This is very true in my career path of marine aquarium fish. Often times an aquarist or herpetologist has to maintain 20-50 tanks plus live foods throughout the course of the day and sometimes can not spend the dedicated time with one exhibit or set of animals that a hobbiest can. There are frequent times in the live coral hobby for instance that they figure out a technique before the professional aquarists because they are able to spend more dedicated time on it. It is important for the flow of information to go both ways. But I urge those that jsut throw out information that is not from past experiance to check their sources first. I do not enjoy reading posts that slander the institution that I am very proud of and that I represent.

Now for my two cents on the actual topic of this thread, for most of my years in the hobby I have kept azureus, auratas, leucomelas, and tricolor together as a pair of each in a 55 gallon tank and they have all thrived. They have also all bred without any hybrids. But this has slowed down the reproduction for many of them as the frequency is much less. When designing your tank K2 I would chose what type of display you want....breeding or show.

Thanks.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2004)

Thanks for clearing things up Tiger Shark and no I dont think u are stepping on anyones toes. 8)


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## RSines (Feb 15, 2004)

n/p oops!


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2004)

Thanks for the post furizzl. I really believe forums of this sort can be a huge benefit to the learning of both hobiests and professionals alike. Both communities have so much valuable information to share.


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