# Costa Rican Frog Farms



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm happy to say that farm bred (legit) frogs are now currently being brought into the USA from Costa Rica. While the first import had some major bumps with the airlines losing the paperwork in transit, ultimately it was moderately successful. A limited number of frogs came in despite the delay. The kinks have been worked out with a new airline, and hopefully several times a year, various locale specific dart (_O. pumilio_, _D. auratus_, etc.) and tree frogs (red eyes and some surprises) will be coming in from Costa Rica. 

Now to just get Panama to follow suit with a similar operation. 

First pics of _Oophaga pumilio_ Squirres, better pics in the future.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

I am happy to hear this. Legitimate farmed, nice work. 
Are these "site specific' frogs that will be able to be bred with successive imports?


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Are these coming through Strictly Reptiles?


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## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

pdfCrazy said:


> Are these coming through Strictly Reptiles?


These are not through Strictly.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Yea, these are locale specific animals, no problems mixing import dates. 



Sherman said:


> I am happy to hear this. Legitimate farmed, nice work.
> Are these "site specific' frogs that will be able to be bred with successive imports?


As for who is/will be offering them, no, not SR. Because farming is not cheap, I'll be offering these to hobbyists, not enough room in profit margin for a wholesaler to offer them. Right now just Squirres locale for pumilio, more locales in the future as they are ready. I'm excited!!!


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Wow, I'm happy to hear that these are coming in. Are the #'s capped at all as far as a maximum? Can you tell us who they are coming through if not Strictly?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ Yes, they are coming through Justin...[Blue Pumilio].


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

No numbers capped, but it's a bit hard to raise them in mass quantity, you know? Doesn't make sense either, saturate the market.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Hello Justin, 
I probably missed the info on this frog farm in Panama, I am not really in the loop I guess. Could you give more details on the project? I have heard things are in the works, but am surprised to hear frogs are landing now.

Another question, if one is now raising O. pumilio Sigurres- Frye line, would it be well received to mix with these frogs coming in..or no? 
Thanks,


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

These may be different from Frye line but until the orginal collection areas are both looked at a map to see how close they really are to each other, I would not cross with Frye.

I do not know of a frog farm in Panama, just a few breeding operations in CR. When things are in the works, there should be success shown at some point, right? Right now it's fairly minor amounts of animals/locales, but hopefully it'll continue to expand and provide more interesting forms/species.





srrrio said:


> Hello Justin,
> I probably missed the info on this frog farm in Panama, I am not really in the loop I guess. Could you give more details on the project? I have heard things are in the works, but am surprised to hear frogs are landing now.
> 
> Another question, if one is now raising O. pumilio Sigurres- Frye line, would it be well received to mix with these frogs coming in..or no?
> Thanks,


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> ^ Yes, they are coming through Justin...[Blue Pumilio].


How about Mole, Shanahan, or Jose .


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Unless they are working with a different frog farm I am not familiar with, none of the people mentioned below will be offering farmed Costa Rican frogs.




billschwinn said:


> How about Mole, Shanahan, or Jose .


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Just some facts about the original line sirqurres there are three technical lines from frye nahn and one other person (have it saved somewhere). They should not be mix with new line as justin said however the three lines Iist can be mixed as they were all brought in, in the same year by the same person.

Hope that helps a little.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> No numbers capped, but it's a bit hard to raise them in mass quantity, you know? Doesn't make sense either, saturate the market.


Is it really hard? From what I've read on the boards, especially disturbed areas of vegetation, pumilio population densities can get really high. Like, they'll be breeding in coffee cans and stuff?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

hypostatic said:


> Is it really hard? From what I've read on the boards, especially disturbed areas of vegetation, pumilio population densities can get really high. Like, they'll be breeding in coffee cans and stuff?


Correct--if I remember some of the research correctly, population density largely depends upon availability of breeding and tadpole deposition sites and some theorize that _Oophaga pumilio_ actually thrives in disturbed areas. It is not a rare species in the wild (uncommonality in the hobby does not equate to uncommonality in the wild) and is sometimes referred to as a "junk" or "garbage frog" because they will use most anything that is suitable enough to hold water (as will _D. auratus_). Some members on here have even gone so far as to litter their vivariums with such garbage and trash to simulate these environments...the heathens.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I guess I also don't know what "farm raised" is in this instance. Like, is it as easy as just putting a bunch of film canisters or something on trees, so that there's extra deposition sites, and having an ant colony (or whatever they're mostly eating) nearby?


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> I do not know of a frog farm in Panama, just a few breeding operations in CR. When things are in the works, there should be success shown at some point, right? Right now it's fairly minor amounts of animals/locales, but hopefully it'll continue to expand and provide more interesting forms/species.


Sorry I did not mean Panama, but rather CR ( I am getting old). I was curious on what the breeding operation looked like, how is it set up etc...

And Ron, I think those heathens may have upgraded from garbage to really cool ceramic pods.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I wasn't aware of anyone doing a large enough viv to use a thrown away commode! 

s


srrrio said:


> ... And Ron, I think those heathens may have upgraded from garbage to really cool ceramic pods.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

hypostatic said:


> I guess I also don't know what "farm raised" is in this instance. Like, is it as easy as just putting a bunch of film canisters or something on trees, so that there's extra deposition sites, and having an ant colony (or whatever they're mostly eating) nearby?


I'd guess not, probably something like this...









































D


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

In all ways these are captive bred in totally screened off enclosures and inside facilities.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Most people are quite reticent when they hear a frog is "farm raised" as, for quite a while, that usually meant someone just went out onto their private property, collected a bunch of frogs, and shipped them north. The images posted above are the same ones that seem to get posted over and over as proof of a 'farm' existing, so there is an understandable amount of hesitation by some hobbyists to jump on obtaining frogs labeled as such.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

VenomR00 said:


> there are three technical lines from frye nahn and one other person (have it saved somewhere)...the three lines Iist can be mixed as they were all brought in, in the same year by the same person.
> 
> Hope that helps a little.


A bit off topic...but can you explain how just b/c the frogs were brought in the same year by the same person, we can be comfortable knowing they were collected from the same locale/population? Were they all brought in on the same shipment?

Thanks.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks Justin for the correction. These images were just pulled of the web, they in no way represent the CR farm which I'm sure Brian has something to do with, and most like more 'tech' than the pictures on the last page.

D


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

skylsdale said:


> Most people are quite reticent when they hear a frog is "farm raised" as, for quite a while, that usually meant someone just went out onto their private property, collected a bunch of frogs, and shipped them north. The images posted above are the same ones that seem to get posted over and over as proof of a 'farm' existing, so there is an understandable amount of hesitation by some hobbyists to jump on obtaining frogs labeled as such.


Exactly my point. And when peoples questions go unaswered as to specifics, only rough generalities as to answers.......it makes people.......second guess whether they really are farm raised, or worse.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

randommind said:


> A bit off topic...but can you explain how just b/c the frogs were brought in the same year by the same person, we can be comfortable knowing they were collected from the same locale/population? Were they all brought in on the same shipment?
> 
> Thanks.


From talking to a bunch of people it seems that is correct. Frye, Nahn, and Charles Almazan? (Correct me if that is incorrect Robert) all bought theirs from the same importer (not positive on the people) from the same locality and the same year as WC. Those three are the founders to the old line of Black Jeans.

From Riche Frye 

Blue Jeans and Black Jeans

There are several locals of 'blue jeans' and these locals should not be mixed. Being that there are not many BJs in the hobby, and the import of them was either a long time (relative to the hobby) ago or they were smuggled, site local data for these are hard to come by. Black jeans are very closely related to the blue jeans, with an average leg coloration slightly darker than blue jeans.
Make sure you know where your BJs came from, and how the person you are asking knows exactly where they came from...

Can be found here Pumilio Site Locals, Names, Misnomers, and Huge Guesses - Dart Frog Forums


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I would hope this farm doesn't look like those first few pictures, considering the cups are upside down


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Just because Panama passes off WC frogs are farmed does not mean the same is true of CR. CR doesn't mess around with mislabeling WC frogs as CB, as it would be against national law to export them. These are legit CB frogs that are coming in as large juvs/small adults and come in perfect shape, compare that too the Panama frogs.

Also, these animals are not affiliated with Brian. I am not that familiar with his operation but I hear good things.




pdfCrazy said:


> Exactly my point. And when peoples questions go unaswered as to specifics, only rough generalities as to answers.......it makes people.......second guess whether they really are farm raised, or worse.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Also, I've learned that when you give people too much information they come up with crazy things to twist what you said. There are always going to be people to go out of their way to try to discredit you, I've learned (though don't always practice) just to take your time on more important things online then convincing such people.



pdfCrazy said:


> Exactly my point. And when peoples questions go unaswered as to specifics, only rough generalities as to answers.......it makes people.......second guess whether they really are farm raised, or worse.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

I was not trying to discredit you, your doing that fine by yourself.


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

Please don't take this the wrong way but why would buying farm raised be better than CB? I Don't understand the advantage to the frogs or for the purchaser.


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

Dave II said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but why would buying farm raised be better than CB? I Don't understand the advantage to the frogs or for the purchaser.


The advantage wouldn't be to CB frogs, it would be to WC frogs. The hope being that there would be a lesser number of them taken.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Dave II said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way but why would buying farm raised be better than CB? I Don't understand the advantage to the frogs or for the purchaser.


1) Introducing new blood into the hobby sustainably

2) In this case, you aren't going to find many CB site specific Costa Rican pumilio around.


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

pdfCrazy said:


> Exactly my point. And when peoples questions go unaswered as to specifics, only rough generalities as to answers.......it makes people.......second guess whether they really are farm raised, or worse.


First off I know nothing of this farm or project or anyone involved.

It would seem to me that in order for there to be a farm someone has to make a profit. Not everyone has the funding to single handedly go around the world starting and funding these types of projects. If everyone had the name address and phone number of a farm that would probably put the person or persons who originally funded it out of business. That in turn would eliminate the ability to start another farm and so on....


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

> The advantage wouldn't be to CB frogs, it would be to WC frogs. The hope being that there would be a lesser number of them taken.


I didn't know there were shortages of CB auratus and red eyes...


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

Dave II said:


> I didn't know there were shortages of CB auratus and red eyes...


I didn't know there were either. I was talking about pumilio

Ant any rate its a better option than WC


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

These are CB frogs, bred in captive enclosures, but because they are being bred in their native country, I consider them farmed. They have the exact same advantages as frogs CB in the USA, plus a few more.




pdfCrazy said:


> Exactly my point. And when peoples questions go unaswered as to specifics, only rough generalities as to answers.......it makes people.......second guess whether they really are farm raised, or worse.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> These are CB frogs, bred in captive enclosures, but because they are being bred in their native country, I consider them farmed. They have the exact same advantages as frogs CB in the USA, plus a few more.


So from what I understand, the parents are WC and brought to the facility, and the offspring are then CB and these are the ones being offered?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Sounds right, Justin any consensus as to what these would be considered? I know Siquirres is actually considered a black jean morph, would these be black or blue jeans or would neither be appropriate?


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I don't think you can label them as either. The problem with placing a label on these frogs as black or blue jeans, would cause the current issue that is already with Blue Jeans. There are three lines of Blue Jeans, Frye, EU, and True Blue jeans, none of which should be mixed. I think what we need to start doing is labeling these as Siquirres and labeling the current Black Jeans, as just Black Jeans and only placing the locality of Black Jeans as Siquirres other wise it will start getting to muddled.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

senditdonkey said:


> First off I know nothing of this farm or project or anyone involved.


A point worth considering. I would personally like to hear more information as to who/what is involved here.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Cites paperwork is open to anyone who requests it from the Govt. Import/Export paperwork is also totally open....for those who care to do the research. I don't understand the secrecy honestly. I dont want to steal your source. I want to know if these are smuggled animals or legally imported. The secrecy lends itself to the smuggled theory. ie: Taron


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

skylsdale said:


> A point worth considering. I would personally like to hear more information as to who/what is involved here.



I stated my opinion / view, I thought that was what a forum like this is for. Is my opinion on the farm not relevant? Of all people posting in this thread (including you) only 1 is "involved" and its not you.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Anyone who actually buys these animals, I'm very open, I'll even give copies of CITES if they request it. Everyone else is welcome to do a FOIA request through USFWS. People can think whatever they want and dig as deep as they want, but it doesn't change the facts that these are legally imported from CR. I can't afford dealing with illegal animals. Either way, I'm done dealing with those accusations. If you feel strongly enough and want to find out, do a FOIA request, pay the fee, and find out yourself. If the mods here want to question if the animals I have are legit, I'm happy to show them paperwork as well from CR. There is nothing to hide, but I'm certainly not going to try to prove anything to anyone who's sole purpose is to attempt to discredit me. Sounds like a waste of time.





pdfCrazy said:


> Cites paperwork is open to anyone who requests it from the Govt. Import/Export paperwork is also totally open....for those who care to do the research. I don't understand the secrecy honestly. I dont want to steal your source. I want to know if these are smuggled animals or legally imported. The secrecy lends itself to the smuggled theory. ie: Taron


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Mark, these certainly are not a black jeans, but different from the blue jeans offered. In the past I'm sure they would have been offered as blue jeans based on coloration, but I figure if I don't label them as either, it might be more accurate and prevent people from crossing into existing lines.



markpulawski said:


> Sounds right, Justin any consensus as to what these would be considered? I know Siquirres is actually considered a black jean morph, would these be black or blue jeans or would neither be appropriate?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Mark, these certainly are not a black jeans, but different from the blue jeans offered. In the past I'm sure they would have been offered as blue jeans based on coloration, but I figure if I don't label them as either, it might be more accurate and prevent people from crossing into existing lines.


Agreed, after I wrote that post I realized it would be foolish to mix these with anything previously "imported" from CR as I believe almost all previous imports were via European sources except for Brian's program coming through UE.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> Agreed, after I wrote that post I realized it would be foolish to mix these with anything previously "imported" from CR as I believe almost all previous imports were via European sources except for Brian's program coming through UE.


I have a line that was imported legally back in the early 90s and they are still producing well.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Man that's a nice looking frog Julio, what F generation is that?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

thanks, F2 PRODUCING F3


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Personally i have no problem with some secrecy from Justin. If he "spills the beans" on his source there will be all kinds of folks trying to steal it out from under him. ie: Sidney...

I think Justin has shown this hobby he can be trusted. 

I for one would would keep quite also. I don't want to see these frogs with Sidney or Taron names associated with them! 

How many importers do you know that treat for cytrid right out of the box? I know one that does.


And why would he tell? I mean he is the one who cared to do the research... and worked to find his source.

My 2 1/2 cents on this.



Casper



pdfCrazy said:


> Cites paperwork is open to anyone who requests it from the Govt. Import/Export paperwork is also totally open....for those who care to do the research. I don't understand the secrecy honestly. I dont want to steal your source. I want to know if these are smuggled animals or legally imported. The secrecy lends itself to the smuggled theory. ie: Taron


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

EXACTLY! Just imagine how often they would be bothered by everyone asking them questions, trying to get animals from them, etc....it would get frustrating for them. 



Ghost vivs said:


> Personally i have no problem with some secrecy from Justin. If he "spills the beans" on his source there will be all kinds of folks trying to steal it out from under him. ie: Sidney...
> 
> I think Justin has shown this hobby he can be trusted.
> 
> ...


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## Colin C (Jun 27, 2011)

care to hint at what tree frogs might in the future be coming in aside from A. callidryas?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I can understand there wanting to be some level of secretcy, but at the same time all we know of these so called farms is that they plucked from the wild and kept in conditions like the pics above. 
WIKRI has show us pics of theri farm facilities, why can't you?
if you have nothing to hide in all reality, put it out in the open, no one is asking where your farm is located to go rob your facility.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Perhaps he doesn't have an exclusive import contract with this facility and therefore is afraid that if he leaks too much info, others will want to bypass the middle man. I could certainly understand him not wanting to give too much info if that were the case.


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## wohlerswi (Nov 20, 2011)

Justin, I very pleased with your success on finally bringing in some site specific cr pumilio! I wish I had some extra money this go but seriously cant wait till the next run of them come in cause they are top of my list! Good job sir!
Will Wohlers


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

phender said:


> Perhaps he doesn't have an exclusive import contract with this facility and therefore is afraid that if he leaks too much info, others will want to bypass the middle man. I could certainly understand him not wanting to give too much info if that were the case.


Phil there is no doubt if people had contact info for this facility they would be deluged with calls and requests....and then I'll pay you $10 more per frog. I don't blame Justin a bit for not adding any more info, if you want it buy the frogs and get the CITES documents. You want a witch hunt look somewhere else, this is pure BS to paint someone guilty that HAS NO TRACK RECORD of unethical dealings, shame on you all.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I agree and questioned it in the beginning but I trust Justin and think he is a stand up person that has helped everyone on here with information and other things. I would rather see him bringing in things since Marcus Breece is not really as active anymore as he use to. Would you rather Taron or Sydney be bringing in these frogs? As long as they have CITES papers I think there is nothing to worry about.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Where's the witch hunt? Most people who have been around for a while know as well as I do how many people over the years have popped on forums or sent e-mails with the obligatory, "Hey, I have a source on some frogs in _________"...so a healthy bit of exercised caution should be understandable. I don't think there has been anything inflammatory or overly accusatory that has been said regarding possible illegal or unethical dealings. I simply said a bit more info would be nice given the history of similar "farm" situations. 

I don't need the town/neighborhood in which this farm/facility/whatever is located, I'm just curious as to the processes by which frogs are being collected or maintained or bred. If I am going to support something with my dollar vote, I want to know what, exactly, it is I'm supporting.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Actually Ron your questions were valid, but the tone of what might almost be considered an interrogation is tiresome as Justin has done nothing to warrant that he must prove he is not guilty...guess it was more just 1 person really fanning the flames of "you won't tell me so you must not be legit". He has been upfront about the status of these animals, not going into detail is something I would expect.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

phender said:


> Perhaps he doesn't have an exclusive import contract with this facility and therefore is afraid that if he leaks too much info, others will want to bypass the middle man. I could certainly understand him not wanting to give too much info if that were the case.


Plus lets not be too naive, even if you have an exclusive contract it means diddly to people usually selling just about anything from another nation if someone offers them more or offers simply to buy more of their stock they sell, that's all their is too it. Until you become a major supplier and can threaten to not import anything they never care.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

markpulawski said:


> Phil there is no doubt if people had contact info for this facility they would be deluged with calls and requests....and then I'll pay you $10 more per frog. I don't blame Justin a bit for not adding any more info, if you want it buy the frogs and get the CITES documents. You want a witch hunt look somewhere else, this is pure BS to paint someone guilty that HAS NO TRACK RECORD of unethical dealings, shame on you all.


Mark, how is me defending why Justin might not want to divulge too much info about the farm supporting a witch hunt? Out of all the posts casting doubts about the farm and the frogs, you quote mine as being part of a witch hunt?

I was trying to help the guy out a little. If you were agreeing with me, then starting a new paragraph would have helped.


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

skylsdale said:


> Where's the witch hunt? Most people who have been around for a while know as well as I do how many people over the years have popped on forums or sent e-mails with the obligatory, "Hey, I have a source on some frogs in _________"...so a healthy bit of exercised caution should be understandable. I don't think there has been anything inflammatory or overly accusatory that has been said regarding possible illegal or unethical dealings. I simply said a bit more info would be nice given the history of similar "farm" situations.
> 
> I don't need the town/neighborhood in which this farm/facility/whatever is located, I'm just curious as to the processes by which frogs are being collected or maintained or bred. If I am going to support something with my dollar vote, I want to know what, exactly, it is I'm supporting.



Even when supporting a charity you will seldom get full disclosure.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Phil I was agreeing with you.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

senditdonkey said:


> Even when supporting a charity you will seldom get full disclosure.


I don't want (nor did I ask for) full disclosure. I'm just looking for the absolute bare minimum of details:

1) Are frogs simply collected on property and shipped out?

2) Is the habitat being modified in some way and froglets/juveniles from these artificial breeding/deposition sites the frogs being collected and shipped?

3) Are founder frogs being collected from the wild, bred and then froglets reared in a captive environment...and those froglets being shipped from source country?

This sort of information (assuming all permits and papers are legal) is the most basic that anyone should be willing to share. It doesn't give away who is involved, where it is located, etc. There is no reason anyone should be defensive or get their hackles up over being asked to share the basic processes involved in producing the frogs I may be seeking to obtain from them--it's just basic due diligence and a conscientious pursuit of the hobby and one's participation in it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

senditdonkey said:


> Even when supporting a charity you will seldom get full disclosure.


Except you can access the charities IRS 990 filings via various companies (including the IRS) and compare the bottom line to the claims... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

Ed said:


> Except you can access the charities IRS 990 filings via various companies (including the IRS) and compare the bottom line to the claims...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Absolutely, I agree. It is seldom offered voluntarily.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

markpulawski said:


> Phil I was agreeing with you.


Sorry Mark, I must have added or left out a word when reading it the first time, but starting a new paragraph would have helped.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Luckily I'm no charity. Also, people CAN do a FOIA request if they really want too.

Again, none of these people asking these questions are buying or interested in buying these frogs. Those that are, I've been very forthcoming with info. I have nothing to hide, but I certainly have no reason to share all my info. 

Pumilio, always bringing out the drama and no mater what you do, someone isn't happy.



Ed said:


> Except you can access the charities IRS 990 filings via various companies (including the IRS) and compare the bottom line to the claims...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

These questions have already been answered. 

Founding breeding stock is collected under legal means from the wild.

Animals are brought to the breeding facility and kept in either terrariums indoors or screened outdoor enclosures.

Captive bred specimens are exported with CITES paperwork after government inspection and review. 

Specimens are imported to the USA, inspected and cleared by USFWS. 

I get them.

Of course it is more complicated then that, but that is the general info.



skylsdale said:


> I don't want (nor did I ask for) full disclosure. I'm just looking for the absolute bare minimum of details:
> 
> 1) Are frogs simply collected on property and shipped out?
> 
> ...


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

VenomR00 said:


> Just some facts about the original line sirqurres there are three technical lines from frye nahn and one other person (have it saved somewhere). They should not be mix with new line as justin said however the three lines Iist can be mixed as they were all brought in, in the same year by the same person.
> 
> Hope that helps a little.


Just an FYI, Rich has stated that your info is not correct on 'the other board.' He says that the Nahn Line and the Frye lines are not the same and should not be mixed....


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Have him speak here because I have been informed of other information from various sources.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

VenomR00 said:


> I don't think you can label them as either. The problem with placing a label on these frogs as black or blue jeans, would cause the current issue that is already with Blue Jeans. There are three lines of Blue Jeans, Frye, EU, and True Blue jeans, none of which should be mixed. I think what we need to start doing is labeling these as Siquirres and labeling the current Black Jeans, as just Black Jeans and only placing the locality of Black Jeans as Siquirres other wise it will start getting to muddled.


Just for clarification, there are more BJ lines than that. Frye, EU, Nicaraguan (old line), and I think there are more too...


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

That is an actual POST from Frye himself. So now you are contradicting something he said, which YOU are saying he is saying.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

VenomR00 said:


> Have him speak here because I have been informed of other information from various sources.


He has been banned here I believe...see his comments on dartden and discuss there. I am just posting to clarify. My intention is to prevent people from accidentally muddying the lines on what could be some bad info...


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

VenomR00 said:


> That is an actual POST from Frye himself. So now you are contradicting something he said, which YOU are saying he is saying.


blue jean lines, not black jean...but I know, for a fact, that there are other lines than the ones your are listing. I.E. Nicaraguan...

Also, citing the post may help to clarify what you are talking about....


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Rather then arguing, I have posted facts, so lets do this, state the fact from the import years of frye, nahn, and Alamazon who are the current stock holder for the Black Jeans line.

Post 25 states what I was saying.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I believe it would be more accurate to say he withdrew from society here.

s


cbreon said:


> He has been banned here I believe...see his comments on dartden and discuss there. I am just posting to clarify. My intention is to prevent people from accidentally muddying the lines on what could be some bad info...


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

VenomR00 said:


> From talking to a bunch of people it seems that is correct. Frye, Nahn, and Charles Almazan? (Correct me if that is incorrect Robert) all bought theirs from the same importer (not positive on the people) from the same locality and the same year as WC. Those three are the founders to the old line of Black Jeans.
> 
> From Riche Frye
> 
> ...


Wish I would have seen this post and could have worked from it from the beginning. I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to offer some clarification to some of the things you are talking about. 

Blue Jeans: it would seem, from what I just read from your link from Rich, that Rich acknowledges multiple lines of blue jeans and not mixing the various lines. I am simply saying that the blue jeans lines you listed aren't the only ones around.

Black Jeans: Rich doesn't really go into black jeans much there, but has said on Dartden, today, that your info is wrong, his words not mine. My intention is to prevent people from mixing/muddying the lines without checking first. It would seem there is at least some doubt, notably from one of the origins of a black jean line. So, it seems prudent to me to discuss this further before declaring those two lines can be mixed. Especially considering that people could read this thread and think that mixing the lines is ok, when it might not be. 

Again, not trying to be argumentative, just trying to prevent muddying of the lines. For the same reasons we would advise against mixing blue jean lines.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Sorry I do get pretty defensive. I read and heard through multiple sources that they were mixable. I know certain individual's that have bred and sold Nahn/Alamazon and Alamazon/Frye. If the facts are what your saying one of those have gone the wrong way.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Never mind...


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

VenomR00 said:


> Sorry I do get pretty defensive. I read and heard through multiple sources that they were mixable. I know certain individual's that have bred and sold Nahn/Alamazon and Alamazon/Frye. If the facts are what your saying one of those have gone the wrong way.


You should read some of the last threads from/regarding Charles Almazan. There have been some serious doubts and questions raised regarding his lines and their origins. That is to say, they might have been completely false. To the best of my knowledge Charles is completely out of the hobby. There were also some of his lines that I believe have been abandoned b/c they were considered too unreliable to continue, i.e. Mimi-timbi Colon.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Even so I do know ALOT of people (from when I was looking for female Black Jeans) that have crossed Nahn and Frye, Frye and Alamazon, and Nahn and Alamazon. The current issue I have now is that if this was happening prior to my obtainment of my female that will be crossing Frye and Nahn's line, the others that have mixed and sold the offspring now have useless frogs if what you say is true.

If someone from TWI can look at the import years and registration of Black Jeans from those three individuals (if possible) and can post some information it would be much appreciated.

These are a few PM's I received. 

'Did you every find any non-Frye blackjeans? If you are interested, I have 3 froglets available. The parents came from Charles Almazan and they are not Frye line. 2 are about 3 months old, and the other is 5 months. I would do $500 shipped for the 3.
Thanks,'

'I have some black jean froglets that will be available ****** They are Charles Almazan/Robert Nahn line. They are unsexed but thought I would mention it.'

'I have a Frye-line black jeans female and I believe Robert's are of the same lineage, if you're interested.'

These are from people on the forums with names obviously removed. Those are just 3 of about 10 I got. It is not my place to put words into others mouths so I didn't say anything, but I am coming to see some issues.

I purposely refused Almazan Line because I knew nothing of him.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

VenomR00 said:


> Even so I do know ALOT of people (from when I was looking for female Black Jeans) that have crossed Nahn and Frye, Frye and Alamazon, and Nahn and Alamazon. The current issue I have now is that if this was happening prior to my obtainment of my female that will be crossing Frye and Nahn's line, the others that have mixed and sold the offspring now have useless frogs if what you say is true.
> 
> If someone from TWI can look at the import years and registration of Black Jeans from those three individuals (if possible) and can post some information it would be much appreciated.
> 
> ...


I will continue on the thread you just started...


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