# Froglet Not Eating



## NWB

My first leuc froglet oow seems to just keep getting skinnier and skinnier. It's set up in a small tub with moss, leaf litter and pothos and has plenty of small springs and I give it a few melanogaster every few days, but no luck. Any advice would be much appreciated thanks.


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## Judy S

I am certainly NO expert...just a sorta nooblet....how big is the container it it in?? Have you seen it eat at all??


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## medusa

Can you see the froglet strike, or try to strike, at the prey items? Can you tell if the prey is actually being captured and swallowed? It is probably easiest to witness this with the flies. There is a condition called "short tongue syndrome" that prevents some newly morphed frogs from feeding.


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## NWB

The container is approx. 6" x 10". I've raised other peoples froglets in these containers before and never had a problem. 

It did seem like this froglet was attempting to eat at first, but I have never once actually seen it get anything and it does not seem even try at this point. I've never heard of "short tongue syndrome" but that sounds plausible. Is there anything that can be done about it ?


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## medusa

*IF* it is short tongue syndrome (STS) there is nothing that can be done. The tongue does not develop properly, so it cant catch prey efficiently, or at all. However, this condition is suspected to be caused by the parents not receiving adequate vitamin A, so a dietary correction can lead to healthy offspring in the future. STS can only be diagnosed by a professional necropsy. However, if you saw the frog striking at but not capturing or ingesting anything, it seems to be a likely suspect. It didn't sound like your rearing chamber was the cause, especially after hearing that you raised other froglets successfully in it.


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## MSon

I suggest moving the froglet into a leaf litter bin. Nothing but a bottom and leaf litter. No isos or any food present for the first day in. After heavy misting or your method of humidity, try adding some ffs in. The froglet will either eat, or not. Try and see if there's an attempt to eat. Like others said, it could very well be sts.


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## aspidites73

medusa said:


> *IF* it is short tongue syndrome (STS) there is nothing that can be done. The tongue does not develop properly, so it cant catch prey efficiently, or at all. However, this condition is suspected to be caused by the parents not receiving adequate vitamin A, so a dietary correction can lead to healthy offspring in the future. STS can only be diagnosed by a professional necropsy. However, if you saw the frog striking at but not capturing or ingesting anything, it seems to be a likely suspect. It didn't sound like your rearing chamber was the cause, especially after hearing that you raised other froglets successfully in it.


I'm not certain a 'short tongue' is meant literally in STS. It is a problem in forming saliva and is correctable. Although it is caused by Vitamin A difficiency have we established the Op's supplementation? What do you dust with? How old are your suppliments, how do you store them? See link below for more info on STS.

Do Your Frogs or Toads Have Trouble Catching Insects?


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## NWB

Hey thanks, I'll check out the link, I'll try the leaf litter only enclosure and report back any success. I'm using Repashy Calcium Plus which I keep in my freezer. According to Zack at Josh's Frogs, this was supposed to be pretty complete, but I could add something else if found to be required. The current tadpoles and froglet are the first that this group has ever produced, in fact the first several clutches didn't even survive even though some were fertile. Could this be a factor?


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## FroggyKnight

It could be stressed with too many food items present and refuse to eat. I would make sure the froglet has plenty of springtails, but not so much that he is overwhelmed, and avoid feeding flies (or feeding only stunted ones if on hand). Of course, he might just be shy and avoiding eating while your around, but it doesn't explain the weight loss. STS seems to be a real possibility, I second aspidites!

Medusa, I where did you get that information? I doubt a professional necropsy can identify STS and it is definitely reversible. My first dart frog, an azureus rescue, is living proof of that. I would highly recommend you read the link provided by aspidites, it does a good job of analyzing the condition.

Jonn


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## FroggyKnight

NWB said:


> Hey thanks, I'll check out the link, I'll try the leaf litter only enclosure and report back any success. I'm using Repashy Calcium Plus which I keep in my freezer. According to Zack at Josh's Frogs, this was supposed to be pretty complete, but I could add something else if found to be required. The current tadpoles and froglet are the first that this group has ever produced, in fact the first several clutches didn't even survive even though some were fertile. Could this be a factor?


This could definitely be a factor.

Calcium+ is a great product but its not perfect and most people on DB (including myself) recommend supplementing once a month with repashy's vitamin A supplement. This extra supplement is especially helpful for breeding as hobbyist's frogs have shown increased fertility when it is used. 

John


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## aspidites73

While Repashy Ca+ is an excellent all inclusive, as froggyknight stated, many of us have found it insufficient in and of itself. Just because it includes everything does not mean it has the proper amounts of everything. I second Vitamin A once a month.

How old are your suppliments? I can't comment on freezer storage. Maybe someone else can. I've always been of the impression that refrigeration is sufficient.

That being said, I'm not qualified to say this is STS. More information is needed and that information should be considered by a qualified Vet. Not only for this animals sake but, for the sake of the parents and your other frogs, if any. This could be, among other things, a parasitic infection that needs to be addressed in all of your animals.

Edit: It is a common misunderstanding that appearence of healt equals health. Testing by qualified people is the only way to claim health.Even then, all that is ever certain is a current lack of evidence of illness. 



NWB said:


> Hey thanks, I'll check out the link, I'll try the leaf litter only enclosure and report back any success. I'm using Repashy Calcium Plus which I keep in my freezer. According to Zack at Josh's Frogs, this was supposed to be pretty complete, but I could add something else if found to be required. The current tadpoles and froglet are the first that this group has ever produced, in fact the first several clutches didn't even survive even though some were fertile. Could this be a factor?


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## NWB

OK, thanks, I'll pick up some Repashy Vitamin A asap.


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## FroggyKnight

Good call 

John


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## NWB

aspidites73 said:


> Edit: It is a common misunderstanding that appearence of healt equals health. Testing by qualified people is the only way to claim health.Even then, all that is ever certain is a current lack of evidence of illness.


Well said.

My suppliments are about 4 months old at this point. I take a little out about once a week and keep the rest in the freezer. 

I'm going to know fairly soon if this is a one off situation, or a reoccurring problem because I have quite a few tads underway . If it continues, I'll look into finding a vet and/or sending in some stool samples for parasite screening.


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## Pumilo

medusa said:


> *IF* it is short tongue syndrome (STS) there is nothing that can be done. The tongue does not develop properly, so it cant catch prey efficiently, or at all. However, this condition is suspected to be caused by the parents not receiving adequate vitamin A, so a dietary correction can lead to healthy offspring in the future. STS can only be diagnosed by a professional necropsy. However, if you saw the frog striking at but not capturing or ingesting anything, it seems to be a likely suspect. It didn't sound like your rearing chamber was the cause, especially after hearing that you raised other froglets successfully in it.


Some of your information is correct, but some is a little outdated. STS is short for Short Tongue Syndrome, but again, that is old information. We now know that STS has nothing to do with a short tongue. Instead, it affects the stickiness of the tongue. If your frog's tongue has lost it's stickiness, it can strike the fly, but not capture the fly. To our imperfect eyes it appears that the frog's tongue is short and not even striking the flies.
STS can fortunately be easily corrected if caught in time. The treatment is Vitamin A, and you need preformed vitamin A (Retinol). Most pet vitamins do not have a usable form of vitamin A. You can either get human grade, grind it fine enough, and ad that to your rotation, or you can purchase Repashy's Vitamin A Plus and use it according to the directions on the package. Personally, I find Repashy's product to be a viable choice, and it is what I choose to use. (No feedback )
Caught in time, STS is easily reversible. Even if your frog is not capturing the well dusted flies you offer, they are likely getting a bit of the supplement stuck to their tongue, thus starting the healing.
Keeping your adult, breeding frogs well supplemented may very well give your froglets a better chance at life, insuring their offspring are well supplemented while they are still forming.


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## Pumilo

NWB said:


> I'm using Repashy Calcium Plus which I keep in my freezer.


Did you know...according to Allen Repashy himself, your vitamins should never be kept in the freezer? He states that they should be refrigerated, not frozen. Freezing can and will break down and destroy certain vitamins. At the top of the list of vitamins affected by freezing...Vitamin A. 
From the information I am gathering, your vitamin A has likely been damaged. I would recommend replacing your Calcium Plus, and possibly picking up some Vitamin A Plus.


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## frogface

Is it possible that your froglet has SLS?

Can you post a picture of your froglet? (Or did you already and stupid work is blocking it?  )


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## Judy S

FroggyKnight....can you explain what is meant by "stunted flies"---there are probably a lot of newer members who may not be familiar with the phrase...


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## medusa

Pumilo said:


> Some of your information is correct, but some is a little outdated. STS is short for Short Tongue Syndrome, but again, that is old information. We now know that STS has nothing to do with a short tongue. Instead, it affects the stickiness of the tongue.


To be fair, I never said that STS literally means your frog has a short tongue (as once was thought). I said "the tongue does not develop properly". I was alluding to squamous metaplasia (cellular basis for tongue not being sticky), but did not bother to describe in detail. Thank you for doing so.


As far as it being reversable, I am only aware of anecdotal cases of "curing" the condition (and assuming that was actually the condition without a medical diagnosis). I am aware of attempts to cure with Vit A dosing, but in this particular case since the frog has stopped eating it is likely too late. There is still the possibility of forced oral dosing with a Vit A solution as well as topical Vit A treatment. However, I suspect that in this particular case those options are not feasable. Again, ASSUMING that it SLS is the cause of the problem, I ASSUME that there is nothing can be done in this particular case. Sorry I was not clear on that and admit in hindsight it sounded like a generality.


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## medusa

aspidites73 said:


> I'm not certain a 'short tongue' is meant literally in STS.


never said it did


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## FroggyKnight

Judy S said:


> FroggyKnight....can you explain what is meant by "stunted flies"---there are probably a lot of newer members who may not be familiar with the phrase...


Sure, if you keep cultures going long enough then the flies will gradually become smaller because of limited resources. This happens to both melanogaster and hydei flies. To give a you a better idea of the size difference, stunted hydei are about the same size as full size melanos.They can be useful for feeding small frogs or those with trouble eating because they are easier to tackle than the full sized fly. 

John


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## medusa

FroggyKnight said:


> Medusa, I where did you get that information? Jonn


my information came from the Amphibian Biology and Conservation Monograph, published by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums.



FroggyKnight said:


> I doubt a professional necropsy can identify STS


In fact it can be, and has been since at least 2005. It involves microscopic examination of the lingual cells looking for enhanced keratinization of cell membranes. A non-sticky tongue (STS) is only one manifestation of Vit A deficiency though.




FroggyKnight said:


> and it is definitely reversible. My first dart frog, an azureus rescue, is living proof of that.


 Not that I doubt you, but you would have to be sure that it had the condition in the first place, then was reversed. If you dont think that it can be diagnosed, how did you diagnose it yourself and then diagnose that it was reversed? And even if it were documented, a single animal is not a very large sample set to "prove" anything. Again, I am not doubting your claim, indeed it probably can be reversed in some cases like Pumilio said "if caught in time". (However in the case of the leuc in the thread starter, I doubt it was caught in time (i.e not eating any longer)). 





FroggyKnight said:


> I would highly recommend you read the link provided by aspidites, it does a good job of analyzing the condition.
> Jonn


I'll check it out. Thanks for the link!  

Sorry for the hijack. I was only trying to help  Good luck with your leuc!


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## Ed

medusa said:


> Can you see the froglet strike, or try to strike, at the prey items? Can you tell if the prey is actually being captured and swallowed? It is probably easiest to witness this with the flies. There is a condition called "short tongue syndrome" that prevents some newly morphed frogs from feeding.


Short tongue syndrome doesn't typically affect newly metamorphed frogs.. it generally takes months to a year before visual symptoms become apparent. This has been shown to be the case in a number of species. The reason for this is because the tadpoles aren't under the same restrictions to supply vitamin A as metamorphed frogs and it takes time to deplete the stored reserves in the liver. For example, it commonly takes between 6 and 12 months to become symptomatic in Wyoming toads (A. baxteri). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

medusa said:


> *IF* it is short tongue syndrome (STS) there is nothing that can be done.


This is completely and utterly incorrect. The condition is reversiable through supplementation of a preformed source of vitamin A. If the frog has progressed to the point it cannot feed itself then the frog can be tube fed an easily assimilated diet like the liquid diets used for ill cats. Not only are those liquids balanced but provide a preformed source of vitamin A to the frogs. 




medusa said:


> The tongue does not develop properly, so it cant catch prey efficiently, or at all.


Actually the tongue does develop properly. The problem is due to a change in the mucous secreting cells that are present in the epithelia layers of the tongue, digestive tract, and bladder (to name a few). For the tongue to not develop properly would require a defect to occur during metamorphosis and that is not what occurs with this condition. 



medusa said:


> However, this condition is suspected to be caused by the parents not receiving adequate vitamin A, so a dietary correction can lead to healthy offspring in the future.


No. I suspect you are confusing short-tongue with spindly leg. Spindly leg is linked to improper nutrition of the adults as insufficient vitamin A provisioning in the egg disrupts the formation of the leg buds resulting in the apparent symptoms. Short-tongue is a disease that takes significant time to present itself as the stored reserves of vitamin A are depleted in the post metamorphic animals. The reason the reserves are depleted is due to the fact that until relatively recently, the supplements used for dusting contained no preformed vitamin A and only beta carotene was used as the source of vitamin A. Post-metamorphic anurans cannot convert beta carotene to vitamin A and instead utilize alternative carotenoids as the source. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

medusa said:


> As far as it being reversable, I am only aware of anecdotal cases of "curing" the condition (and assuming that was actually the condition without a medical diagnosis).


See Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery... it is totally reversible in anurans. 



medusa said:


> I am aware of attempts to cure with Vit A dosing, but in this particular case since the frog has stopped eating it is likely too late.


BS... See my previous post, a liquid diet can provide the required nutrition to sustain the frog but even if the OP chooses to not go that route, if the frog has appropriate fat stores, it can overcome the issue however supplemental feeding is highly suggested in the relevant literature. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

medusa said:


> In fact it can be, and has been since at least 2005.


Try since before 2002 as it was being diagnosed in Wyoming toads before being published in 2002..
see Pessier, A. P., D. R. Roberts, and M. Linn. "Short tongue syndrome, lingual squamous metaplasia and suspected hypovitaminosis A in captive Wyoming toads, Bufo baxteri." 9th Annual Meeting of the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, Reno, NV, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians. 2002.



medusa said:


> Not that I doubt you, but you would have to be sure that it had the condition in the first place, then was reversed. If you dont think that it can be diagnosed, how did you diagnose it yourself and then diagnose that it was reversed?


To some extent, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is a duck.. Actually a failure to capture prey when using the tongue is considered a classical symptom of STS and a reason to ensure that the animals are getting sufficient preformed vitamin A.... so to make the claim that a necropsy is required is specious at best and to make the sample size claim is also without merit in this discussion. 



medusa said:


> starter, I doubt it was caught in time (i.e not eating any longer)).
> 
> Tube feeding can work wonders....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## medusa

Interesting Ed. Around 15 years ago I had some D. tinc's that appeared to develop STS, (having a difficult time catching prey) but they were about 3 months old, or so if I remember correctly. I am wondering if the tadpole was not receiving adequate Vit A wouldn't it morph out with a deficit to begin with, and therefore develop symptoms earlier? Could you expand on what you said about the "tadpoles not being under the same restrictions as metamorphed frogs"? From my foggy memory I was thinking there was a link between parent frogs having a Vit A deficiency leading to offspring having Vit A deficiency. Meaning that the deficit continues through the egg/tadpole stage to be manifested in the morphed froglets. But I might be getting this confused with another Vit deficiency though. I'll have to do some digging in my papers, unless you can weigh in off the top of your head.


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## medusa

medusa said:


> From my foggy memory I was thinking there was a link between parent frogs having a Vit A deficiency leading to offspring having Vit A deficiency. Meaning that the deficit continues through the egg/tadpole stage to be manifested in the morphed froglets. But I might be getting this confused with another Vit deficiency though.


Sorry Ed, I just saw your response confirming I am confusing Vit's and syndromes. SLS, not STS!


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## Ed

There is data in some of the most recent literature that indicates that tadpoles can convert beta carotene to vitamin A (although this is odd since in a number of studies, the form of vitamin A was retinol 2 in tadpoles. This was believed to be derived from astaxanthin in the tadpoles with makes sense under Occam's razor as these systems tend to be highly conserved across taxa and that is the form commonly found in many fish. However in post-metamorphic frogs, the data is very clear that they do not convert beta carotene (although they do uptake and store it both as a pigment and as an anti-oxident) to retinol. That leads many to lean towards an alternate carotenoid conversion in post tadpole stages and until that is locked down, additional preformed vitamin A is highly suggested in the supplements for the frogs (also because for many of the cultivated invertebrates used as feeders are deficient in preformed vitamin A). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## NWB

All these posts are really great, so thanks. So far this is what I take away from this :

1. I should put my froglet in a tub with leaves but no moss.
2. Wait a period of time before before offering food again
3. Try some stunted melanogaster as well as springs
4. Suppliment with Repashy vitamin A preformed
5. Get new Calcium Plus and don't freeze it (I had no idea)
6. Post a picture


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## FroggyKnight

It might not be necessary to move him to a new tank. I don't really see a reason to as long as he isn't being swarmed by feeders right now. Moving might just be unnecessary stress right now. Does anyone else want to weigh in on this?

John


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## NWB

I chose to move my froglet into the stripped down tub as discussed because I saw what looked like small froglet droppings and I wanted to make sure this is in fact what I'm seeing. I did get new Calcium Plus and I did observe him/her eating a fly today.


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## NWB

Pumilo said:


> STS can fortunately be easily corrected if caught in time. Even if your frog is not capturing the well dusted flies you offer, they are likely getting a bit of the supplement stuck to their tongue, thus starting the healing.


How much supplimentation? One of the next group of leucs OOW seems to have a mild case of STS, but not as bad as the first and can capture some food. I have supplimented once with the Repashy Vit. A. Shall I wait a month and do it again as some people do ? It says " not more than once a week". Thanks


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