# Hiding frogs



## a.drake (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm new to dart frogs. do have experience with reptiles. I bought a few darts at a local expo about a week ago. my tank had been set up for a week prior to purchasing frogs to make temp and humidity would hold properly. Since my frogs have been in the viv they don't come out much. Is this normal? If not what could be the cause? Temp stays low 70's and humidity never below 90%. It is a 25g tank, with moist substrate, a few live plants and a bunch of fake leave litter. frogs are 1 to1 1/4 inches long.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

A picture of the tank would help? 
Also, what kind of frogs and how old are they?
Therre are alot or variables that go in to how bold frogs but lets start here.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

a.drake said:


> a few live plants and a bunch of fake leave litter.


Someone makes fake leaf litter??! That seems like such an odd thing to make


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

i find it common to have your frogs not come out.... some of my frogs i never see and some are out all the time.


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## geoffsfrogs (Feb 20, 2011)

yah different species have different levels of general boldness. They all have their own personalities also so if you buy some bolder frogs such as tincs, it doesn't mean they are guaranteed to be out hoping around the tank all day.

Since you only got them a week ago, I'd say that's very typical behavior for any type of frog. Give them time to get use to the tank and try not to be looking in constantly.


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## a.drake (Mar 24, 2011)

I was told they were about 6 weeks out of the water. I have 3 auratas and 2 tinctorius. The tincs I do see every so often. I'm trying to upload a pic, but ive never done it. Still trying to figure it out. The leaf litter is fake leaves from walmart. Cut from some ivy vine.


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## a.drake (Mar 24, 2011)

Pic is from before frogs were put in.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Do you have a bigger picture? It's so tiny it's hard to see. Many people on here won't be happy that you're mixing species...there's plenty of threads on here about that topic. I'd also ditch the fake leaf litter and add real leaf litter 1"-2" thick throughout the entire tank. Fake leaves won't have any of the benificial traits that real ones will. If you have any microfauna in the tank they'll benifit greatly from having a real layer of leaf litter to live in. There also doesn't seem to be much depth from looking at the small pic. It could be possible that your frogs are stressed from being crowded.


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

I rarely see my auratus and I have had this one for over 1 1/2 years. I do have another morph of auratus and he is out much more. It does take awhile for your frogs to acclimate in their new viv. Viv looks nice, but it would be helpful to get a bigger picture to see it up close.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

I recommend getting real plants in there, and raise the temperature to the mid-upper 70s throughout the day.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

If you would like to see your frogs more I would highly recommend...

1- Seperate the 2 species!!(mixed tanks are of NO benefit to anyone or any frog)

2- Add more plants/hide spots (frogs that know they can hide will be more 
comfortable and come out more) 

3- Cover the substrate with sphagnum and real leaf litter.( the "dirt" will stick to
your frogs and really annoy them)

These are a few steps you should take rather quickly. Without fixing these issues your frogs will be under a steady amount of stress which could possibly lead to their death.

Do some more research, the more knowledge you have on what it takes to properly care for these animals, the better of they will be and the happier you will be with them. Good luck.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Ok so you have 5 frogs in one 25 gal tank. To start thats a recipe for disaster. Thats way too small of a tank for that many frogs. They are froglets now so its not too bad but in a few months your going to have some pretty stressed out frog and that will likely lead to some dead frogs. Second, you have two different species. Again not a problem now but will be in the near future.


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## a.drake (Mar 24, 2011)

The tank is a 25g. I was told I could house mixed breeds as long as I separated them before they become adults. Which I plan to do. I hadn't planned on buying more than one breed but he had the others at a good price. I'm still working on getting the temp up since I keep my place about 65. I added an undertank heater. But I don't think it is enough.


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## a.drake (Mar 24, 2011)

Thanks for the advice. I will work on the leaf litter tomorrow. I look into a second tank this weekend, shouldn't be a problem. Local pet store always hS stuff laying around.


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## Pitcom (Sep 5, 2008)

PantMan said:


> Ok so you have 5 frogs in one 25 gal tank. To start thats a recipe for disaster. Thats way too small of a tank for that many frogs. They are froglets now so its not too bad but in a few months your going to have some pretty stressed out frog and that will likely lead to some dead frogs. Second, you have two different species. Again not a problem now but will be in the near future.


While having 5 frogs in a 25g tank may not be the most ideal setup, it is not always a recipe for disaster. I have a communal tank of 6 frogs, of 3 different types (luecs, alanis, azureus) living in a 24 cube, and they have been for 3 years. They live in complete harmony. I don't want to see someone run out and buy a second tank reading something that makes it sound like what they have won't possibly work. 

As for the frogs hiding. If you have not already done so, get yourself a hand sprayer/mister. You can pick them up at home depot or lowes. Frogs, especially tincs in my personal experience, have the tendency to hide under objects when the tank is not humid enough for them. They will congregate to an area that is more damp and hide there. This isn't the only reason frogs hide, but not knowing your tank, and considering it is a new setup, it is one possibility to look at. if you have the cash for a second tank, then go for it. If you don't, i would just monitor the situation, and make sure each frog is eating if you can get them to stop hiding.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not sure why people are jumping on the size of the enclosure at this point, nor am I sure why mixed species is the concern of the moment. 
This is newly set-up enclosure, with froglets, and a person relatively new to the dart frog hobby. The first order of business should be making sure the general husbandry conditions are correct as any potential concerns over the size of the enclosure and/or the multispecies can wait weeks to months to be settled.... More important and relevent questions are as follows.. 

What are you using to measure your temperature and humidity? 

Is the top of the tank closed? 

Is the tank located in a high traffic area? 

How often are you opening up the tank or interacting with the tank? 

What are you feeding them and how often? 

*The first step should be helping them be* *successful in the short term.. *

Some comments,

Ed


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## a.drake (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm pretty sure I have those question correct. I have a temp/humidity gauges from the pet store. Im confident they work properly. The top is closed, but does have 4 holes (1/2inch). Looking to change it from plexiglass to glass without holes. The tank is in a corner so it doesn't get much traffic. I only open it twice a day for misting. One of those times is when I feed. I feed them flightless fruitflies. Depending on how many I see depends on how many I feed. I always make sure they have some.


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## TheUnseenHand (Mar 8, 2011)

a.drake said:


> I'm pretty sure I have those question correct. *I have a temp/humidity gauges from the pet store. Im confident they work properly. *The top is closed, but does have 4 holes (1/2inch). Looking to change it from plexiglass to glass without holes. The tank is in a corner so it doesn't get much traffic. I only open it twice a day for misting. One of those times is when I feed. I feed them flightless fruitflies. Depending on how many I see depends on how many I feed. I always make sure they have some.


Just out of curiosity, what makes you so confident they work properly? Are they digital, or do they have needles that move? The latter are known to be several degrees off. In my experience, up to 15 or 20 degrees off.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

a.drake said:


> ...The top is closed, but does have 4 holes (1/2inch). ...


Are these holes closed up with screen or mesh of some sort? If not, maybe cover those up. I think a froglet could climb out of a 1/2 inch hole pretty easily. 

I agree with real plants and real leaf litter. Once you do it, you'll see why.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

TheUnseenHand said:


> Just out of curiosity, what makes you so confident they work properly? Are they digital, or do they have needles that move? The latter are known to be several degrees off. In my experience, up to 15 or 20 degrees off.


In the past I've had mine be upwards of 40% off. Those little pet store dials are absolutely useless in my experience. A better gauge IMO is does the glass ever fog up on the inside?


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## Bananaman (Mar 21, 2009)

Welcome to the hobby and congrats on your darts! 

You will eventually want to seperate the species but since they are so young you should have a few months with no issues. Make sure to keep an eye on each to make sure that they are eating and healthy.

As far as them hiding goes new frogs usually take a week or two to get acclimated. I would recommend buying/collecting a bunch of mag leaves and layer those over all the substrate that is showing. Providing more hides will increase their boldness. Also you may want to consider some live plants, pothos is extremely hardy and cheap, just throw a couple clippings in there. Tincs are generally bolder than auratus as well.

I hope this helps and happy frogging!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

a.drake said:


> I'm pretty sure I have those question correct. I have a temp/humidity gauges from the pet store. Im confident they work properly. The top is closed, but does have 4 holes (1/2inch). Looking to change it from plexiglass to glass without holes. The tank is in a corner so it doesn't get much traffic. I only open it twice a day for misting. One of those times is when I feed. I feed them flightless fruitflies. Depending on how many I see depends on how many I feed. I always make sure they have some.


The gauges that are sold in the stores are not made for the conditions in frog tanks, and usually fail very quickly and even before they fail tend to be very inaccurate. 
You can get an indoor/outdoor thermometer that is a lot more accurate... 

If you are getting a lot of condensation on the glass, you can cut back on the misting. Multiple daily mistings usually aren't needed particularly if you seeing condensation. 

Temperature is important as cooler temps can cause the frog's to hunker down more. If the cage is mainly closed up then the light should be bumping the temperature up a lot more than you would expect during the day since it is sitting on the top of the tank.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

It sounds like you are on the right path and doing a good job. Your auratus are acting normal. They are one of the more shy specimens and will take a little longer then the bolder tincs to settle into their new home.

Here are a couiple of sugesstions:
-remove the fake leaf liter and replace it with real leaf litter if that is the look you are going for. I personally have never used leaf liter and it is only as of late that this method has been pushed as "highly" recommended. 

- I too keep mixed tanks and even though I would not suggest it to a beginner it is not hard to maintain a successful setup if done corrrectly. I would suggest either moving up to a 40g breeder tank or sepersting the two. I do not think your tank has ample floor space to create enough visual barriers, feed stations, and hide outs to work well. 

I have been keeping and helping others setup mixed enclosures for around 10 years. My current setup has lost one frog during initial setup because I left a small opening and one escaped and was found dead dried up behind the tank. I never pulled eggs until this past year and in the past year I have raised 33 frogs, have 16 tads in the water, and 12 eggs in petri dishes. So I do consider my tank and the couple dozen others I have helped setup to be successful.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Removed a bunch of posts.

Stay on topic please. 

While the tangent is important - it's not important at this *moment* for these frogs.

I believe he received the message and said he was going to act on it.

Stay on topic please.

And welcome to both the hobby and Dendroboard a.drake!

s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

How long have you been in the hobby? Just curious.

Maybe mixing frogs isn't as "bad" as everyone says - but I'd say mixing in a Beginner's tank with new frogs is likely not a good idea.

Your other advice is spot on.

I'd prefer we didn't pick up on the conversation that I just had to trim - so let's just leave it at that please?

s


Pitcom said:


> While having 5 frogs in a 25g tank may not be the most ideal setup, it is not always a recipe for disaster. I have a communal tank of 6 frogs, of 3 different types (luecs, alanis, azureus) living in a 24 cube, and they have been for 3 years. They live in complete harmony. I don't want to see someone run out and buy a second tank reading something that makes it sound like what they have won't possibly work.
> 
> As for the frogs hiding. If you have not already done so, get yourself a hand sprayer/mister. You can pick them up at home depot or lowes. Frogs, especially tincs in my personal experience, have the tendency to hide under objects when the tank is not humid enough for them. They will congregate to an area that is more damp and hide there. This isn't the only reason frogs hide, but not knowing your tank, and considering it is a new setup, it is one possibility to look at. if you have the cash for a second tank, then go for it. If you don't, i would just monitor the situation, and make sure each frog is eating if you can get them to stop hiding.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

He is already misting it twice a day... the tank is mostly closed up so I'm not sure that humidity is the issue. 

Ed


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm sure you're right Ed - just trying to address a post that was a bit questionable in my opinion (and try to say *something* positive about it).

s


Ed said:


> He is already misting it twice a day... the tank is mostly closed up so I'm not sure that humidity is the issue.
> 
> Ed


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Drake, I think it would help if we explained why we keep real leaves in the bottom of our tanks. As they break down they produce all sorts of beneficial bacterias and produce mold. Mold feeds springtails which in turn provide both a nice snack for the frogs between feedings and little janitors keeping the tank cleaner by eating detritus. Leaf litter also provides another hiding place for your froglets (?) and helps to retain more humidity. I think now would be a good time for you to invest in quality supplements to dust your flies with. If you search the forum you'll see a few threads about frogs having seizures due to a lack of vitamin A (please correct me if I'm wrong here). I would cover those holes or just cover your tank top with glass but that's up to you. And you're right as long as you split them up before they reach sexual maturity they should be ok growing up together. Good luck man and welcome to the hobby.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm also wondering about the fake leaves. Are you absolutely sure they are frog safe? No paints that may be toxic? I've seen fake leaves made of a stiff fabric. If you are using those could they be sprayed with a stiffener that is irritating them? Or even just their "unreal" feel against their delicate froggy skin. In either case, Flesh summed it up pretty nicely why you should use real leaf litter.
You can use any type of non toxic leaves for leaf litter. You want dead, dried leaves, not living, green ones. Live green ones will quickly rot. The favored leaves in the hobby are Magnolia, Oak, and Indian Almond as these types of leaves last longer, buy again, others will work, they just may need to be replaced more often. 
Make absolutely sure that they are collected from pesticide free trees. The vendors here on the board can help you if you don't have a source. I like to boil my leaves for 5 or 10 minutes to kill off any undesirables like spider eggs, etc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fleshfrombone said:


> . I think now would be a good time for you to invest in quality supplements to dust your flies with. If you search the forum you'll see a few threads about frogs having seizures due to a lack of vitamin A (please correct me if I'm wrong here).


 
There are reports in the literature of insufficient vitamin A causing seizures in domestic animals (see for example Blindness and convulsions associated with vitamin ... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1986] - PubMed result ) but the most common causes we see in the frogs are related to insufficient calcium in the body (either through incorrect ratios of A to D3 to E and/or incorrect Calcium to phosphorus and/or just insufficient D3). If the frog is deficient enough to have seizures from lack of A, it would also probably be blind as well due to insufficient vitamin A for proper function of the eye. 

It is also possible to see seizures from insufficient levels of vitamin B6. 

Ed


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## Pitcom (Sep 5, 2008)

Hey drake, 

I found this discussion from 2008 on the very same issue. i wish i had remembered I had a problem with a pair of my frogs hiding in a tank that was in the mid 60's. Let me give you a link to the old thread. The person was able to figure out that they had a temperature problem, and once they got the heater working, their frogs started coming out again. 

Check it out.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/34563-my-azureus-always-hiding.html


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