# Tank choice for Phyllobates? New to frogs.



## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

Hi all, looking to get into the frog hobby! My girlfriend and I have been keeping a number of reptiles for a few years now (current count is 18 crested geckos, 3 leopard geckos, 2 picta geckos, and a gargoyle, plus 8 eggs incubating) and after seeing some dart frogs at a reptile expo I decided I had to have some of them. Fortunately I had the foresight to hold off on an impulse buy because I knew nothing about them, had no place set up for them to live, and had nothing to feed them. I have been doing a fair amount of reading up on these guys lately and I *think* the ones I want are Phyllobates Teribilis or Phyllobates Bicolor. My thoughts on these species is that they would be good because they seem to be a bold, hardy species, and I can feed them primarily (I think) off the Dubia roach colony (best feeder insect ever) that we already have. Fruitwalks seem like a pain, or at the very least, one more thing to learn about and take care of. I read on here that these two species can eat full size crickets, which should mean that I could feed them sub adult Dubias as well. Still need to find an animal that eats the adults, right now we just sell off extras to people with bearded dragons and such.

I have never put together a vivarium with live plants and stuff before (geckos really don't care, honest) so that is something that will be new to me. I have been looking at habitat kits for PDF's online, and will probably just order a ready to go set of ingredients so I don't muck it up, but I am unsure what tank to put them in. At my disposal right now I have three tanks: a 29, and two 30 extra-highs, one of which has been divided at the bottom but never used:










Our pet bromeliad, Stewert, is in the divided 30 extra high.

My understanding is that these frogs are terrestrial, so that the height is more for the plants inside than the frogs themselves. I am unsure as to if I should bother with a water fall or not. I think it would look cool, but will it be a PITA and will the frogs like it anyways? Most of our geckos require high humidity as well, but I think if I don't do a waterfall on my first tank I will probably set them up with a drip system at the very least, along with spraying them with a misting bottle.

Thoughts? Am I overlooking anything else major? I am trying to do my homework first in an attempt to spare the lives of several innocent frogs I am going to adopt soon.

Also, these two species seem to be kind of hard to locate, even though they seem to be a great frogs for dummies like me, anyone know a good place to get them?


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

Bicolors or terribilis seem like a good match for you as a first frog.

For those species, choose the tank with the most floor space.

Skip the waterfall, it only complicates things and is unnecessary. With a natural terrarium that uses good substrate, plants, and a mostly glass lid, you won't need a dripper to keep up humidity. 

I don't know much about dubia roaches, but I assume appropriately sized roaches could be a staple diet as many people keep bicolors and terribilis on mostly crickets. 

Don't forget a good supplement like rephashy calcium plus. Frogs especially need a vitamin A source that they can metabolize that isn't beta carotene. 

What part of the country are you in? Meeting another dart frog keeper locally and taking a tour of his setup is a great way to start.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I have never fed my terribilis dubia before although I do raise them,I may try and give them some younger ones today.I do feed them decent size crickets and they pound them.As long as they aren't too big I'm sure they will eat them.Variety is a good thing so I would give them crickets too anyway.They seem to eat what ever moves.

I would go with the 29 out of the tanks you have available.They will use all the floor space.Sometimes mine climb on the horizontal log in their viv and venture to some of the plants strong enough to hold them,but for the most part they hang on the floor.I wouldn't do a water fall.It is more for you than the frogs.It would just take up more of the footprint space that the frogs could use.

Jeremy Huff usually has some available.They are really great frogs!


Lou


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RacinJason44 said:


> *think* the ones I want are Phyllobates Teribilis or Phyllobates Bicolor. My thoughts on these species is that they would be good because they seem to be a bold, hardy species, and I can feed them primarily (I think) off the Dubia roach colony (best feeder insect ever) that we already


 
Actually, there is some solid data coming out that indicates that dubia roaches are not as a great a feeder as advertised. Many species of roaches use uric stores as a precursor for protien synthesis and when fed a high protien diet can have uric acid levels ten times or more than that of roaches reared on a herbivorous diet. Ingested uric acid is absorbed and excreted but high levels can cause issues with the kidneys, and gout.... 

Do you have a reference to an analysis of fat, protein, and carbohydrate levels in dubia? Other roaches aren't much better than crickets( http://www.prairieexotics.ca/info/Nutritional_Aspects_of_Insects_as_Food.pdf)) 


Some comments,

Ed


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## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I am liking the idea of the 29 anyways since it will be easier to maintain since it is not quite so tall. Most of our geckos are arborial, so they can make use of the taller tanks anyways.



Ed said:


> Actually, there is some solid data coming out that indicates that dubia roaches are not as a great a feeder as advertised. Many species of roaches use uric stores as a precursor for protien synthesis and when fed a high protien diet can have uric acid levels ten times or more than that of roaches reared on a herbivorous diet. Ingested uric acid is absorbed and excreted but high levels can cause issues with the kidneys, and gout....
> 
> Do you have a reference to an analysis of fat, protein, and carbohydrate levels in dubia? Other roaches aren't much better than crickets( http://www.prairieexotics.ca/info/Nutritional_Aspects_of_Insects_as_Food.pdf))
> 
> ...


Before we started raising and feeding dubias we did some research on the chitin vs nutrient levels of cockroaches compared to crickets and mealworms, including the article you linked, and it looked to us that roaches are a better food source than the other two. Plus they do not stink, they can't climb vertical smooth surfaces, and will not infest your house. Many people in the reptile community have been switching to dubias for these reasons.

Ours eat very little protein, and have a diet consisting of fresh fruit, grains, and left over Rapashy Crested Gecko Diet. We have been dusting our crickets and roaches with calcium for the geckos, so dusting the feeders for the frogs will not be a big deal.  Crested and gargoyle geckos have a high incidence for metabolic bone disease if they are not fed the proper diet, so we try to make sure that they are taking in the proper foods and getting enough calcium.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Depending on your citation (and I'd like to see the reference) chitin levels in older analysis are potentially overestimated as much as 7 times above actual levels (ignoring the presence of chitinase). In addition, higher chitin levels do not indicate reduced digestiability (and in fact undigested chitin acts as an important source of fiber (which as we know in multiple taxa, fiber can help nutrient uptake)). 

I would also like to see the actual breakdown analysis of dubia roaches..... 

As an example a good article comparing growth rates of mealworms and crickets provided the exact opposite data that the voodoo husbandry in the hobby would predict (see for example The effects of prey species on food conversion efficiency and growth of an insectivorous lizard - Rich - 2008 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library). 

As far as I can tell, there is a huge amount of unsupported hype about roaches being better than other feeders (and this is well before we consider the impact high levels of uric acid in the diet can do to the consuming animal)...... 

Feeding insects older reptile food sources or supplements that contain tocopherols/vitamin E is not a great idea and can lead directly to decreased calcification of the bones of the animals (as well as issues with insufficient vitamin A) as insects in general, use very little vitamin A (so it is is mainly digested), no D3 (it is converted to cholesterol) but do uptake and store vitamin E potentially to levels hundreds of times higher than is found in the food. These levels can disrupt the uptake of vitamin A and D3 since it puts the ratios of A to D3 to E out of the 10 to 1 to 0.1 ratios..... 

Ed


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## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

I am not sure what "voodoo husbandry" you are referring to, but AFAIK it's pretty common knowledge to reptile keepers that crickets are better for your animal than mealworms, and that they will grow faster and put on weight quicker.

Man if this is what the newbie section of reptile/amphib forums are like I wonder what it's like to post in any other section, lol.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RacinJason44 said:


> I am not sure what "voodoo husbandry" you are referring to, but AFAIK it's pretty common knowledge to reptile keepers that crickets are better for your animal than mealworms, and that they will grow faster and put on weight quicker.


Voodoo husbandry is reliance of beliefs that are not supported by actual proof.. If you get a copy of the above article regarding mealworms, you would see that crickets are actually an inferior food choice than mealworms for rate of growth, sustaining growth and metabolic conversion.... One of the voodoo myths in the hobby is that less chitin is better which is not supported on analysis.... 



RacinJason44 said:


> Man if this is what the newbie section of reptile/amphib forums are like I wonder what it's like to post in any other section, lol.


You mean questioning of incorrect or unsupported information...? You made several statements which to my knowledge are not supported by anything other than dogma which is why I wanted to see the references in which you placed your faith.... 

As an example, we can expand this discussion to the idea that oral supplementation of D3 actually meets all of the nutritional requirements of reptiles and amphibians.. This for example is not supported by research in multiple taxa where increased circulating levels of D3 metabolites and increased bone density is observed in those animals supplied with access to UVB as compared to those that are only orally supplemented... See for one example 

ScienceDirect.com - Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part B: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology - Effects of vitamin D3 supplementation and UVb exposure on the growth and plasma concentration of vitamin D3 metabolites in juvenile bearded drago


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Jason, you have no idea who you are arguing with. Ed was a professional zookeeper for years and is one of the most knowledgeable people on the board when it comes to anything herp and amphibian related. He keeps on top of the latest findings and can always supply the proof to back it up. You are going to shoot yourself in the head with the attitude you are taking towards one of our more respected members.
If Ed tells you something, you might want to consider it and at least look at his links before telling him he's full of it.


What you may be misinterpreting as rude, are actually simple facts that he does not care to take the time to sugar coat.


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## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

Ed said:


> Voodoo husbandry is reliance of beliefs that are not supported by actual proof.. If you get a copy of the above article regarding mealworms, you would see that crickets are actually an inferior food choice than mealworms for rate of growth, sustaining growth and metabolic conversion.... One of the voodoo myths in the hobby is that less chitin is better which is not supported on analysis....


I can see how voodoo husbandry myths get perpetuated. Many people with geckos push the Crested Gecko Diet as THE food source for crested and gargoyles, but from our own experience with hatchlings is that the juvies that readily take up insects develop faster and have a significantly higher growth rate, even compared to other hatchlings from the same clutch.




Ed said:


> You mean questioning of incorrect or unsupported information...? You made several statements which to my knowledge are not supported by anything other than dogma which is why I wanted to see the references in which you placed your faith....
> 
> As an example, we can expand this discussion to the idea that oral supplementation of D3 actually meets all of the nutritional requirements of reptiles and amphibians.. This for example is not supported by research in multiple taxa where increased circulating levels of D3 metabolites and increased bone density is observed in those animals supplied with access to UVB as compared to those that are only orally supplemented... See for one example
> 
> ScienceDirect.com - Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part B: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology - Effects of vitamin D3 supplementation and UVb exposure on the growth and plasma concentration of vitamin D3 metabolites in juvenile bearded drago


That is something I can completely agree with you on, is that oral supplementation of D3 alone is not a substitute for full spectrum lighting. It's obviously not a natural way for the animal to take in D3, nor does it allow the animal to regulate its D3 consumption on its own.

What are your thoughts and experience on frogs that receive full spectrum lighting in the terrarium and the need for oral intake of D3?

In our experience with egg laying females is that calcium dusted crickets is essential in sustaining healthy bone structure. Sorry if I came off wrong, but I am basing my personal view points and thoughts on keeping healthy, thriving animals, as I am sure many people do.


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## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Jason, you have no idea who you are arguing with. Ed was a professional zookeeper for years and is one of the most knowledgeable people on the board when it comes to anything herp and amphibian related. He keeps on top of the latest findings and can always supply the proof to back it up. You are going to shoot yourself in the head with the attitude you are taking towards one of our more respected members.
> If Ed tells you something, you might want to consider it and at least look at his links before telling him he's full of it.
> 
> 
> What you may be misinterpreting as rude, are actually simple facts that he does not care to take the time to sugar coat.


Thanks, I guess the delivery just came off wrong. Obviously I am here to learn, and in my fair amount of time on forums I have learned that some places are more receptive to newbies than others.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

RacinJason44 said:


> Thanks, I guess the delivery just came off wrong. Obviously I am here to learn, and in my fair amount of time on forums I have learned that some places are more receptive to newbies than others.


You're welcome. Here is one of Ed's threads that may answer some of your full spectrum (UVB included) lighting questions. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RacinJason44 said:


> What are your thoughts and experience on frogs that receive full spectrum lighting in the terrarium and the need for oral intake of D3?


Due to the many inconsistencies that can result in insufficient exposure to UVB (examples not meant to be all inclusive), lid material(s) blockking or absorbing UVB, distance to lights, insufficent duration of exposure, rate of degredation of the bulbs), supplementation should continue (particularly since the animal won't produce D3 in excess of what it needs). Particularly since hypovitaminosis of A is fairly common in anurans (and potentially some taxa of reptiles (particularly chameleons). My goal is to switch the as many of my animals as possible to having access to UVB. 



RacinJason44 said:


> In our experience with egg laying females is that calcium dusted crickets is essential in sustaining healthy bone structure. Sorry if I came off wrong, but I am basing my personal view points and thoughts on keeping healthy, thriving animals, as I am sure many people do.


I don't think anything I said indicated that proper supplementation wasn't needed or shouldn't be done. What I was addressing was the dogma that crickets are better than mealworms, which is wide spread and contrary to actual diet studies. 

I also was addressing the perception that dubia roaches are automatically a better feeder insect due to supposedly having a lower chitin content even before we get to the issues of increased uric acid content. There are a lot of claims supposedly to that effect but I have yet to see any hard data actually supporting it (unlike the data on crickets and mealworms). As a further complication, other feeders do not store uric acid or use it in the same way that many cockroaches due. Increased uric acid levels in the blood are potentially damaging to kidneys (in reptiles particularly when combined with any level of dehydration) as well as depositing in various tissues in the body which can eventually result in gout. Reducing the protein in the diet of the roaches reduces the level of uric acid but this doesn't mean that it is lower than other feeders. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

I should also clarify that my initial post where I stated my preference for dubias was based on the ease and convenience of keeping and breeding them compared to crickets.

I was not aware of the uric acid build up problems, but I am glad that you brought that to my attention. Like I said though, we do feed ours primarily fresh fruit and vegetables, so hopefully we should not have a problem with that issue. I guess my GF was already aware of the link between high protein diets for roaches and gout in the animal.



Right now my thoughts are to use the 29 tank with a zoo-med reptisun linear florescent light. The lid we have for the tank is a fairly large opening screen top, maybe 1/8" openings. I was considering covering the remaining area not covered by the light fixture with some kind of moisture barrier material.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RacinJason44 said:


> Right now my thoughts are to use the 29 tank with a zoo-med reptisun linear florescent light. The lid we have for the tank is a fairly large opening screen top, maybe 1/8" openings. I was considering covering the remaining area not covered by the light fixture with some kind of moisture barrier material.


The down side to using that wide of a mesh is that the you need to have a high tolerance for wingless flies migrating around the house. It allows for a good portion of UVB to penetrate into the tank. What I would suggest at this time, is that you don't run the UVB lighting for the entire day since in shallower enclosures (say anything under 30 inches in height) that may cause the frogs to stay hidden most of the day. 

Back to the fruit fly issues, you could always invest in some solacryl since that allows excellant UVB penetration but the down side is that it is expensive and usually you'll have to purchase an entire sheet (4 by 8 foot) as the minimum amount. (I had to get a full sheet, but had it delivered pre-cut into 24 by 24 panels which I can easily cut to fit as needed using a table saw). Or as an alternative, is that you can use the larger mesh at a couple of points to provide some UVB penetration without allowing it to saturate the entire tank (sun fleck idea). 

Some thoughts,

Ed


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## Froggywv (Aug 9, 2010)

Adult terribilis and bicolor ar extremely hard to come by. You can find young ones for sale, color and age will usually determine price. However if you do buy young ones you will have to feed fruitflies until they get large enough to eat crickets or anything larger. Really, tho, fruit flies arent that hard.. While you build your viv, start culturing. Perfect it before you buy your frogs. Also, you can use the 29 for them but that will only fit a pair comfortably, its on the very end of the size recommended for a trio. If you want 3 or 4 you really need something like a 40. I have a trio of mints in a 20long, but they are tiny right now at 3 months ootw. They will be housed in a 46 when they get bigger.


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## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input. I am sure many of these topics have been covered hundreds of times in other threads, but thanks for sharing for me.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Actually 29 is fine for 3 or 4 adults with no problem.If you want to give them more room that's fine too.They are great communal frogs.On the contrary to common belief they will climb and use a well planted and layered viv.Use horizontal logs and furniture that is easy for them to access and they will use it.

You can feed them bean beetles,baby meal worms or very small crickets if you don't want to deal with flies.I like tiny crickets for young but will use bbs and ffs(bean beetles will get out too).Although my adults still get ffs and bean beetles once in a while,they do prefer larger food items and will ignore smaller food if larger prey is available at the same time.I raise mints and yellows with this method(obviously separately)with no problems at all.

Lou


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Lou is right, if you have access to the right sized crickets for the frogs, there isn't anything wrong with using them as feeders. Fruit flies are not required as a food source, it is just out of many of the feeders available, fruit flies tend to be fairly easy to rear (you can actually purchase premade media that all it needs is water (some use hot some use cold) and mixing which also simplifies the process. It doesn't take long to set up some cultures every seven to ten days. 


Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If you decide to go ahead and get your feet wet with fruit flies, here is a pretty decent guide on it. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/62277-guide-making-ff-cultures.html
You can get culturing supplies from New England Herpetoculture LLC - Home and also from Josh's Frogs - Largest online herps feeders and reptile supplies store
I like to use Repashy Superfly media Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: By Product Name :: SuperFly :: SuperFly 64 oz BAG (four pounds) - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
And of course Repashy Calcium Plus dusting powder.


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## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

Thanks again! Now I just need to start ordering some supplies for the vivarium and get going on that, and then culture some fruitwalks. Probably won't be ready to buy frogs for another month or two anyways, going to see how much money I have left after a couple weekends worth of racing robs me of any disposable income. 

I've built some cool (imho) pieces for our leo tank out of Styrofoam sheets, covered them in grout, and then sealed them in a non-toxic sealer, but I read on here that the styrene may be bad for the animal, especially amphibians. I have seen builds where people used GS canned foam, but how do people plant that? Just carve out a section and fill it with potting soil? I like the idea of a living background, but probably will not go to the trouble of building a setup like some of the works of art I have seen here.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

RacinJason44 said:


> Thanks again! Now I just need to start ordering some supplies for the vivarium and get going on that, and then culture some fruitwalks. Probably won't be ready to buy frogs for another month or two anyways, going to see how much money I have left after a couple weekends worth of racing robs me of any disposable income.
> 
> I've built some cool (imho) pieces for our leo tank out of Styrofoam sheets, covered them in grout, and then sealed them in a non-toxic sealer, but I read on here that the styrene may be bad for the animal, especially amphibians. I have seen builds where people used GS canned foam, but how do people plant that? Just carve out a section and fill it with potting soil? I like the idea of a living background, but probably will not go to the trouble of building a setup like some of the works of art I have seen here.


You don't need a background if you don't want one. Honestly, some of the most amazing tanks I have seen on here don't have backgrounds. 

Also, you shouldn't have too much of a problem if you have sealed the areas that come into contact with water. I personally don't use water features due to the issues of water pulling bad stuff from other components of the tank. Again, this is often a personal decision.


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## RacinJason44 (Jun 16, 2012)

Being my first natural setup with live plants I probably will skip the water features this go 'round.


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