# ... rescue frog



## The Mom

I rescued a [redacted] leuc last night. I hope anyway. These poor people were sold 4 frogs, all different species, in May at the Lodi reptile show. 3 of the frogs are dead. I am so worried about this frog I can't sleep, it is 3 am here.

It is sad I am doing the rescuing, I am new to this hobby too, having bought my first 2 frogs at that same show. I have to thank you all again, I am sure my frogs would be dead too if it weren't for this site. Now I have 8 happy and healthy little hoppers.

So, now I am counting on you all to help me save this poor little guy. He is the same size as my 12 weeks old leuc, so SUPER stunted. Or maybe sold fresh out of the water, I am pretty sure now that the auratus [redacted] sold me was fresh out of the water. 

This leuc is very thin. He also has never been given anything other then ff's, no supplements. The poor little thing, it would just break your heart to see him.

I am guessing the other 3 starved to death. [redacted] told this poor man, as well as myself, NOT to supplement and feed 10-12 flies every other day. I could also tell (this guy showed me everything) that they were living in very overly dry conditions.

I do not have the money to have this frog tested for disease or parasites. (r I don't think I do, how much would a fecal test cost me?) 

How long should I quarantine this guy? Is it safe to deworm (however that is done) if there are no worms? After I try to get some meat on its bones anyway. I am worried that I might be wrong, it is not malnourished but actually diseased. I do not want it infecting my other babies.

I also don't have anything for it to eat other than the ff's and pin head crickets. I can't seem to get my hands on any springtails around here. This guy had his tank seeded with them, but I could not take any from him, the tank itself might be infected.

Should I feed twice a day, one with a calcium dust and again with the multivitamin? I work out of my house, so I am here to coddle it as much as it needs.

BTW, my kids have named it Winky. So we have to save him. Once named they are officially household members.


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## ChrisK

Supplement but don't feed too much, too many flies crawling on it may stress it, keep a close eye to see if it's eating but don't bother it too much, only feed more when there are no flies left, try to leave it alone as much as possible to reduce stress, worry about testing etc after it starts gaining weight.


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## aspidites73

I second what Chris said. I would also provide a small, shallow dish of very wet sphagnum, or even just a bit of water he can sit in to re-hydrate. Dehydration will also present as a skinny animal. I, too, would recommend getting a fecal done after it's health turns around some. There is a good article here that gives great advice on doing it properly http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/36848-collecting-sending-fecals-examination.html

Please, for the sake of your other frogs, do not do anything with this animal, then work with your own frogs. Do whatever husbandry needs to be done with your healthy frogs, first. Then, work with the sick one. Wait until the next day to work with your animals again. Better yet, you work with the sick one and allow your children (assuming they're old enough) to take care of the healthy ones for a while. Based on commemt I've read about the company that sold them, there seems to be a good chance this animal has a parasite or two.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

I agree with everything that's been said already. I might try feeding it twice a day, only a small amount of ff's each time though. 
I would also see if you could get the original purchaser to come to DB and leave some vendor feedback on [redacted] and relate their experience to the rest of the community.


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## WendySHall

You may also want to set up a feeding station for him. Just a small piece of banana for the fruit flies to congregate on. It will save him some energy as he won't have to hunt for food...they'll all be in one place. Also, fruit fly larvae is supposed to be good to put weight on fast.

I have a lot of empathy for what you're going through...and it's terrible to experience. I hope things turn out for the best and wish you the best of luck with him.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Dear OP,

First off, very sorry you're having to deal with this problem, but kudos to you for doing the right thing to make it right, for the frog at least. Many of us have had serious concerns about [redacted] since they came on the scene recently and this post only serves to confirm our worse fears may be true.

First a few questions:

What other frogs did [redacted] sell them? You said all different species? Do you have any pictures of the Luec that [redacted] sold them?

How soon after purchasing the frog from [redacted] did the other frogs die?

You also bought 2 Auratus at that shame show from [redacted]? Could you share with us some pictures of those frogs and their condition?

You were told not to supplement by [redacted]? Did [redacted] offer to sell you any supplements at all? Was any care sheet for your frogs provided when you purchased them? What was the condition of the other frogs at their table at the show like?

Have you contacted [redacted] to get a resolution to this problem? 

Now, let me echo what others have said already, keep the [redacted] frogs away from you other frogs. You should really do this with any new frogs, not just those from [redacted], until they have been properly quarantined. But given the past history of the breeder associated with [redacted] and his husbandry practices, many of us are understandably extra concerned. Follow the practices others have outlined above. Work only with these frogs AFTER you have worked with your other frogs and keep them in separate areas.

You really do need to get these frogs fecal tested and checked for bd and RanaVirus. You should probably take the frog to a local vet for an exam. I know that this can be expensive, but it is very important. If you can't find a local vet there are sources you can send fecals to like Dr. Frye.

LOCAL FROGGERS HELP HER OUT PLEASE!

Can someone get this lady some springtails?

Can someone recommend a local vet?



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I agree with everything that's been said already. I might try feeding it twice a day, only a small amount of ff's each time though.
> I would also see if you could get the original purchaser to come to DB and leave some vendor feedback on [redacted] and relate their experience to the rest of the community.


Sadly they'd have to get to 25 posts to do so. But I would encourage them to come here and share their Experience with [redacted] and participate in the board until they get to 25 posts and then leave vendor feedback. OP, you're close, you should also leave vendor feedback about your [redacted] purchase when you reach 25 Posts.

One last Request, could you have the original purchaser contact me off list? I am sending you a PM with my email address. I would like to them as well.

Again sorry you're dealing with this, but we will help you get through it, hopefully with the frog alive and healthy eventually.


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## ZookeeperDoug

The Mom said:


> How long should I quarantine this guy? Is it safe to deworm (however that is done) if there are no worms? After I try to get some meat on its bones anyway. I am worried that I might be wrong, it is not malnourished but actually diseased. I do not want it infecting my other babies.


Quarantine for at LEAST One month, probably 3 to be safe. Keep it away from your other frogs. You could possibly safely treat it, but a proper diagnosis is more important than treating prophylacticly. 



> I also don't have anything for it to eat other than the ff's and pin head crickets. I can't seem to get my hands on any springtails around here. This guy had his tank seeded with them, but I could not take any from him, the tank itself might be infected.


If you have any older fruit fly cultures, those may have smaller stunted flies or even mites which the tiny frog will feed on.




> Should I feed twice a day, one with a calcium dust and again with the multivitamin? I work out of my house, so I am here to coddle it as much as it needs.


Don't overfeed it. Like some have mentioned, too many food items running around could stress it. Just make sure it has food available and leave it alone. Resist the urge to constantly check on it as this will stress it even more. What supplements do you have? You should be supplimenting, but not everyday. At this point if it is thin an emaciated, the most important thing is to get something into it. I'd say dust lightly every 3 days with something like repashy calcium plus. Watch closely for signs that it is actually eating the fly. If it is making multiple tongue strikes at prey but not actually catching them, this could be another problem called short tongue syndrome.



> BTW, my kids have named it Winky. So we have to save him. Once named they are officially household members.


That is the worst part of this thing. There are more than just frogs and the people who purchase the frogs who are victims. For most of us, our frogs are more than just a dollar sign, quick way to make money, or a way to support our families, for others, not so much.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

If at all possible try keeping the [redacted] frogs in another room, completely away from the rest of your frogs. 

The more I've thought about this situation the angrier I've become. Clearly as demonstrated by past and present behavior, selling skinny, malnourished, and sick frogs is standard operating procedure for [redacted]. Where are all those forum members who defended [redacted] on previous threads? Sure anyone could sell a sick frog by accident once in a while, but [redacted] makes it a habit and a regular business practice. OP you and your friend are the exact demographic [redacted] is counting on to be their customer base. Novices to the hobby that don't know any better. They can't be relying on repeat business as one purchase from [redacted] is enough to last both of you a lifetime. I encourage both of you to go to [redacted] page and post your experiences with them. Let the world know that 3 out of 4 frogs have died. 

[redacted], I'm sure you'll be posting here momentarily with your usual PR, spin and utter BS. Do you realize what you've done here? You've chased a new hobbyist from keeping frogs. Congratulations a**holes! How does that help the hobby? How does that help your business? How does that help your already abysmal reputation? I'm not saying the person who purchased the frogs was an expert at keeping them, but it's your responsibility as a seller to make sure the frogs that you sell have the best possible chance for survival. Which includes the use of supplementation, and proper husbandry techniques. Do the world a favor, dry up and blow away, like dust in the wind.


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## Pumilo

[redacted] has made an extremely public offer to take care of all of the unhealthy frogs that they, or [redacted], has ever sold.
PLEASE! Call them on this and let us know if this is a legitimate offer, and they make good on it, or if in fact, it is nothing more that words spouted out to try to cover their mistakes.
It is important for the hobby to know if they are really working to clean up their past, or if this too, was an empty promise. The offer was made in this thread (contact Doug directly for this information).


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## bsr8129

Arnt we jumping the gun a lil bit here, we know nothing about the care of the frogs from the original owners, how their viv was set up, how they were feeding, nothing other than 3 of their 4 frogs died. Seems like they were impulse buys at a reptile show, while it doesn’t seem they were given proper instructions on how to take care of them, without first hand knowledge of what actually went down we are just on a witch hunt here.


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## Pumilo

bsr8129 said:


> Arnt we jumping the gun a lil bit here, we know nothing about the care of the frogs from the original owners, how their viv was set up, how they were feeding, nothing other than 3 of their 4 frogs died. Seems like they were impulse buys at a reptile show, while it doesn’t seem they were given proper instructions on how to take care of them, without first hand knowledge of what actually went down we are just on a witch hunt here.


Obviously, more information is needed. That is what we are trying to prompt her for. More information and follow up. Too many people let it drop and walk away.
*IF* the buyer was told not to use vitamin dust for their new frogs, then they were truly dead before money even exchanged hands.

I'd like to see the original purchaser speak up.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

bsr8129 said:


> Arnt we jumping the gun a lil bit here, we know nothing about the care of the frogs from the original owners, how their viv was set up, how they were feeding, nothing other than 3 of their 4 frogs died. Seems like they were impulse buys at a reptile show, while it doesn’t seem they were given proper instructions on how to take care of them, without first hand knowledge of what actually went down we are just on a witch hunt here.


Or isn't this just past history repeating itself over and over again?


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## Buddysfrogs

Ok everyone,
No offense to the OP or her friend but how do we know she had them housed the right way? It may not be her fault because the info did come from [redacted] but no one asked how she had them set up. What size tank, a drainage layer, live plants? Nothing just oh its history repeating itself. And its coming from the same people that were extremely against [redacted]. So let me be the one to ask, how is is their tank set up? How was it set up with the original purchaser from [redacted]?
Buddy


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## Pumilo

Buddysfrogs said:


> Ok everyone,
> No offense to the OP or her friend but how do we know she had them housed the right way? It may not be her fault because the info did come from [redacted]but no one asked how she had them set up. What size tank, a drainage layer, live plants? Nothing just oh its history repeating itself. And its coming from the same people that were extremely against [redacted]. So let me be the one to ask, how is is their tank set up? How was it set up with the original purchaser from [redacted]?
> Buddy


Buddy, I think you missed the part where the original purchaser was instructed NOT to use dusting supplements. If that is true, the rest of the original purchaser's husbandry skills do not matter. IF that is true, the frogs were already dead, they just didn't know it yet.


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## ZookeeperDoug

I've reached out privately to the OP for more information and asked to be able to contact the person who purchased the 4 different species of frog [redacted] at the same time. I of course have some questions for them, especially related to how they cared for them.

There are two huge glaring issues already though.

1.) According to the OP, they were sold 4 frogs, all different species. For all we know they lied to [redacted] and told them they were going to keep them separate, unlikely. More likely, they saw a chance at a quick buck sale and took it, without care for the probable end result. Goes to the pattern of victimization by their star breeder.

2.) Were improperly instructed in the care of the frogs, as the OP stated, told NOT to supplement. This one seems fishy. You would think even [redacted], for all of his lack of apparent knowledge of proper dart frog husbandry would evidence, that even [redacted] would suggest supplements, I mean it is after all, an add on sale.


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## Buddysfrogs

Doug,
If the frogs were kept on an eco earth/ fake plant set up they could have died from the stress of the excess substrate being on their body. The OP said that [redacted] said not to use supplements. Im pretty sure a bad environment would end up killing the frogs before the lack of supplements but thats beside the point. We do not know the husbandry but we do know [redacted] instructed the OP and her friend to not use supplements. Why should we believe that theyve changed? tou shouldnt because [redacted] is still there and [redacted] will always make money because of people like the OP (no offense). But you fall inlove at a show and want one witbout doing research on who youre buying from or how to take care of it. 
Buddy


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## fishieness

bsr8129 said:


> Arnt we jumping the gun a lil bit here, we know nothing about the care of the frogs from the original owners, how their viv was set up, how they were feeding, nothing other than 3 of their 4 frogs died. Seems like they were impulse buys at a reptile show, while it doesn’t seem they were given proper instructions on how to take care of them, without first hand knowledge of what actually went down we are just on a witch hunt here.


This is the main issue at hand. The OP said in the original post that she thinks the remaining frog is dehydrated and that the other 3 starved to death. While there are many things that could have been wrong with the original purchased frogs to result in this, it sounds more likely that it is due to lack of care and research.
[redacted] said not to supplement, which sounds unlikely if all the assumptions of motivation to try to make a quick buck are true. And let's be honest, how long does it take for frogs to die from lack of supplements? I wouldn't know. But how many people come on this site every month that have kept frogs for X number of months and have never heard about supplementing. It is unlikely for them to die after only a few months from not supplementing. This WAS wrong information, but not likely the cause of death. And how many frogs have to die before the original owner does their own research to see what was wrong?
Once again, the OP said themself that they believe the frogs died of starvation and the lone survivor came to them dehydrated.
Everyone on this site agrees the importance and responsibility of doing your own research. And half the time a newbie asks a question, nobody wants to actually help but will respond with a snotty remark about using the search button. Yet this incident gets 2 pages of responses saying it is entirely [redacted] fault.

Without fecals and pictures/information of the setup, [redacted] involvement is off topic and not conducive to quickly saving the surviving frog.

So before we go on, may we please have more information on the frog's previous and current setup? Temp and humidity parameters as well. The previous owner; did they keep the frogs in an ACed room? How long did they have them before they started dying? And how long apart? What types of frogs were there and how old? Was there any aggression between them? Would they know what aggression looks like? 
The surviving one- Does he strike at flies at all? If so, is he missing or just not picking them up? A picture would also be helpful.


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## WendySHall

I am *absolutely not* sticking up for [redacted] here, but...

I tend to think there's not enough info to make a decision on whose fault this is. The OP is guessing on age (it may well have recently morphed before selling). She also states that she believes others starved to death and that the viv was overly dry. Being deprived of food and/or humidity for as long as the purchaser had them would be enough to kill young froglets...which would be the purchaser's fault.


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## ZookeeperDoug

The OP gave me permission to share this:



> I bought 2 from [redacted] at the same time this guy bought his.*** 1 leuc and the auratus.** I had gone to the show to find a tree frog for my daughter, but we were sold on the dart frogs instead.* I was told to house them together in a 12x12.*** Feed ff's every other day, 10-12 each.*** I was specifically told not to supplement, as I directly asked if they needed any supplements.**** Fortunately for my guys I researched right away, figured out how to properly feed them, and to separate them as the leuc was so aggressive about food the auratus was not getting enough.*** Presently my leuc, who calls his little heart out, lives by himself in the 12x12.** The auratus, who is very small, lives with 2 baby leucs in a 29 gal I built for them.** It (I think it s female) is now looking healthy and is out and about most of the time.
> *a
> Honestly, I am not sure what the*auratus is, [redacted] told me it was a blue and black.*** But I do not think it is.** I had someone bring me some to the norcal meet so I could get some buddies, and they looked nothing at all like my frog.**** My frog looks like the micro spot ones, but is a nice blue, with no hint of green.* The size is a*factor too, it seems smaller*then a auratus should be.* I am going to take the frog with me for the October meeting so Chuck Powell or someone else can help me id it.** Heck, from what I have read I may actually have a mutt.***It really is a*lovely frog, but I need to know exactly what it is.**** Eventually it is moving to the 12x12 and the male leuc in there will join the 2 babies, I am just waiting for them to grow and get more proficient at hunting food.*** I*have them separated by size at the*moment.
> *
> I have 4 New River tincs too, they are all happy in a 18x18.** They are 5 months old.**** I don't know if they will be OK together*forever.* I have 2 high areas for them, one is*literally a shelf, so they all have*favorite*places to*alone, but most of the time they are in a group.
> *
> As far as this rescued one.** I will pass this on,*I do not know if he will contact you.*** He seemed really shocked that I told him the problem might be the supplier, not him (the 3 dead frogs).* He told me that [redacted] told him that dart frogs are the upcoming "pet craze".**** He planned to breed the 4 frogs to each other, not even knowing they are separate frogs, not different colors of the same frog.*** It upsets me that any professional is so concerned about a sale they disregard the well being on the animals.*** I hope I can save this little frog, that it is not too late for him.**** He is soooooo thin and really tiny, but alert and active.*** I already have a nice grow box set up, I had to put my auratus in there while I built the viv it is in now.**** I have just kept it going in case I ever needed to temporarily house the frogs* already have.* ( I had to tear the New River habitat*partially down to find one who was indeed stuck where he did not belong)
> *
> I am really fortunate to have found this board and people like you.*** Hopefully I won't get too addicted.


So you have it reconfirmed that she was instructed not to supplement and sold two different frogs to be housed together, in a rather tiny enclosure I might add. I'm still hopeful the person who also bought 4 different species from [redacted] will help clarify some information.

I do know that [redacted] are now involved. She was going to post further but now feels intimidated. Great job. I'm sure you two standup individuals are being nothing but polite and helpful and offering to help Her out.

Lastly



> My post really is a medical one anyway, this frog is in need of extra care if he is going to make it.*** Just looking at it tears me up.*** He has fight in him (or her) though so I will not give up on it


Lost in all that is this, which should be our primary focus. Getting her the help she need's with this frog. Disappointed I haven't seen any local Cali froggers step up to offer her some springs.


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## WendySHall

I don't understand why the original poster would feel intimidated? (Unless it's because of all of the [redacted] screaming) No one has laid any blame for this frog's condition on her. It's possible the other frogs were doomed from the get-go...also the original purchaser did not display good care of the frogs. But, this is not "The Mom"'s fault.

"The Mom"...please don't let the [redacted] hollering scare you off. You can help the frog better by posting here yourself and asking for advice.

Also...it's not a good idea to reuse the grow-out box. You should clean it out, sterilize it, and put in new sphagnum etc for this frog.


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## ForbiddenFrogs

feel free to contact me for any help im in the socal area


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## ZookeeperDoug

WendySHall said:


> I don't understand why the original poster would feel intimidated? (Unless it's because of all of the [redacted] screaming) No one has laid any blame for this frog's condition on her. It's possible the other frogs were doomed from the get-go...also the original purchaser did not display good care of the frogs. But, this is not "The Mom"'s fault.
> 
> "The Mom"...please don't let the [redacted] hollering scare you off. You can help the frog better by posting here yourself and asking for advice.
> 
> Also...it's not a good idea to reuse the grow-out box. You should clean it out, sterilize it, and put in new sphagnum etc for this frog.


Wendy, in an email to me she said she intended to post more here but that after [redacted] contacted her:



> ** I was starting to post but them but I started hearing from both [redacted] and got a little intimidated.*


It is clear they're the ones intimidating her.

She is very thankful for all of our help.


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## WendySHall

Oh, I see. Hmmm...

I read the offer by [redacted] for supplements, springs, etc. But then a few minutes later that post was replaced with "contact the company...". 

So, I am wondering if she was actually intimidated by them or plied with offerings and afraid of the reactions coming from this board. Perhaps [redacted] is offering supplements, springs, etc, etc in an attempt to quiet the situation?

Which also makes me wonder...since the original poster did not buy the frogs from [redacted] (someone else owned them before her), does this mean that they are going to take care of all of the frogs that they ever sell no matter who currently owns them for an indeterminate amount of time to try to keep their reputation clean?


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## ZookeeperDoug

WendySHall said:


> Oh, I see. Hmmm...
> 
> I read the offer by [redacted] for supplements, springs, etc. But then a few minutes later that post was replaced with "contact the company...".


He likely forgot who he was logged in as again.



> So, I am wondering if she was actually intimidated by them or plied with offerings and afraid of the reactions coming from this board. Perhaps [redacted] is offering supplements, springs, etc, etc in an attempt to quiet the situation?


Wouldn't surprise me. They're very good at damage control. Seems to be their priority instead of doing the right thing from the start.



> Which also makes me wonder...since the original poster did not buy the frogs from [redacted] (someone else owned them before her), does this mean that they are going to take care of all of the frogs that they ever sell no matter who currently owns them for an indeterminate amount of time to try to keep their reputation clean?


They've made that offer as far as frogs [redacted] has sold in thecpast and as long as he is their breeder they'll probably have to continue to extend it. Of course I don't yet know of anyone that has actually gotten taken care of by them, just their empty claims that they will.


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## Ash Katchum

Please if you need any springs or FF's feel free to contact me. I wish I had more to offer.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Halter

Does the OP have any pictures? While I am sure it is very sad to see, i am curious to see the condition of the frogs + their enclosure they were kept in.


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## The Mom

I have no had time to read all of the posts, but wanted to clear some things up.

I am NOT a witch hunter or in any way vindictive. I am new and a care taker by nature. I came for here for help. I thought it important to mention the source of the frogs as that alone is a lot of information for people. I have no reason to lie about the source of the frogs and the poor guy who gave me this one did not either. In fact I can tell you it never 0occured to that man that the problem might be the frogs or the source. He was sincere and very open. He showed me everything. He also bought a HUGE take from them, which was not set up yet. He paid $50 a frog, which I thought odd, I paid $30 the same day. [redacted] set up the tank for him, just like he set up the one that he sold to me. His plants did not grow in because of lack of light. The are the same plants I started out with, I just added to mine. There is a screen top, substrate, no leaf litter, no logs to hide in, etc. A couple of plants and a dish a water were the only furnishings. This frog is likely the same age as my male, they came from the same seller, sold on the same day. Body weight wise I would say my frog is 6 or 7 times larger. The length, nose to vent is about the same.

Please don't accuse me of doing anything dishonest. I am upset about this whole thing is it is. People posting here that this may not be as I post it are not helping anything. Chuck Powell and a few others here have met me in person. While they may not really know me I would hope they can at least verify that I am unlikely to waste time making false accusations. 

All that aside, the little guy has a place of his own and seems to be stable. He is eating and has good reach, hits his targets, so I don't think there is any deformity there. There is a lack of body mass and his legs are like sticks. I have him in a quiet and cool room, I am keeping him at 70 degrees unless you tell me otherwise. He had been eating Turkish gliders, but I gave him the melegers (yeah, I know I did not spell that right) I raise, second bloom, so a little smaller. The gliders sure hop around more, so might have been harder to catch.

To those posting helpful things, thank you so much. Just the fact that you care helps.

Now, I have a date tonight, so I will read up in the morning. It will do me good to get this off my mind.


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## frogface

Just want to say that I like you, The Mom


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## btcope

Hey the Mom,

I have family up in the Central Valley and will be visiting them next weekend if you need some more springtails I can meet you with some by then or ship you a culture if none of the other offers to help have worked out. Feel free to PM me and I can put some in the mail ASAP.

If the frog is dehydrated, I've had good luck in the past leaving a small amount of pedialyte in a dish for them to sit in. Just a thought.

Hope all works out well. I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of Winky!

Enjoy your date!
Brett


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## punctata

CAN WE GET SOME PICTURES TO SEE WHAT WE/YOU ARE DEALING WITH?

I am a little surprised we have no pictures. We should be asking for them before we start ripping at a company. Without pictures I could say the same things. I am not trying to say the OP is lying, but lets face it. There are plenty of people that are out to get [redacted] based on their history with certain members of this company. It is great we are offering help, but I would like multiple pictures of said frog. I think since the OP brought up the companies name, pictures are a must at this point in my opinion.


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## WendySHall

I think this thread is going way off track. Whether you believe her or not... there may very well be a little frog out there who could use the advice and opinions of those who know how to help it get better. I think all of the [redacted] crap should be dropped and the focus should be on helping the frog.

OP...pictures would help show the seriousness of the condition and perhaps get you more helpful replies. It also would be nice to see an "after" photo if you are successful in making him well.


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## epiphytes etc.

I just read all this, and WOW! Why are we meeting someone, who came here for help, with so much hostility and suspicion? This is exactly why I don't spend much time here anymore.

OP- If there is a compounding pharmacy near you, I would highly recommend getting some amphibian ringer's solution. Fill a container just enough to cover the frog's belly and let it soak for an hour every day. This should help rehydrate your frog, and get it the proper electrolyte balance for proper organ function and general vigor. Make sure to use fresh ringer's each day, clean the container after each use and sanitize the used liquid before disposal. If possible, try to get a hold of some termites. They are great for putting weight on malnourished frogs. Just make sure to take it slow, and not feed too much, as not to overwhelm your frog (also, make sure to use a dish for these, as they will burrow into the substrate). Most important of all, find a trustworthy vet to see your frogs and get them on the right track to recovery. I wish you all the best.

As for all you who offered nothing but criticism and unfounded accusations of the OP - SHAME!


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## joshbaker14t

punctata said:


> CAN WE GET SOME PICTURES TO SEE WHAT WE/YOU ARE DEALING WITH?
> 
> I am a little surprised we have no pictures. We should be asking for them before we start ripping at a company. Without pictures I could say the same things. I am not trying to say the OP is lying, but lets face it. There are plenty of people that are out to get [redacted] based on their history with certain members of this company. It is great we are offering help, but I would like multiple pictures of said frog. I think since the OP brought up the companies name, pictures are a must at this point in my opinion.


 This would be helpful, but I would imagine tricky for someone who is not tech savvy..


----------



## punctata

epiphytes etc. said:


> I just read all this, and WOW! Why are we meeting someone, who came here for help, with so much hostility and suspicion? This is exactly why I don't spend much time here anymore.
> 
> OP- If there is a compounding pharmacy near you, I would highly recommend getting some amphibian ringer's solution. Fill a container just enough to cover the frog's belly and let it soak for an hour every day. This should help rehydrate your frog, and get it the proper electrolyte balance for proper organ function and general vigor. Make sure to use fresh ringer's each day, clean the container after each use and sanitize the used liquid before disposal. If possible, try to get a hold of some termites. They are great for putting weight on malnourished frogs. Just make sure to take it slow, and not feed too much, as not to overwhelm your frog (also, make sure to use a dish for these, as they will burrow into the substrate). Most important of all, find a trustworthy vet to see your frogs and get them on the right track to recovery. I wish you all the best.
> 
> As for all you who offered nothing but criticism and unfounded accusations of the OP - SHAME!



There is no hostility at all. Its a conversation and people have questions. To get more help, I would like to see pictures, Also once you bring up the vendors name, you open yourself for criticism and questioning.There are 2 issues at hand in this thread, the state of the frogs and the vendor who sold the sick frogs. Both trying to be figured out. Please do not start the Shame on you crap. This thread has been very civil so far.


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## aspidites73

WendySHall said:


> I think this thread is going way off track. Whether you believe her or not... there may very well be a little frog out there who could use the advice and opinions of those who know how to help it get better. I think all of the [redacted] crap should be dropped and the focus should be on helping the frog.
> 
> OP...pictures would help show the seriousness of the condition and perhaps get you more helpful replies. It also would be nice to see an "after" photo if you are successful in making him well.


I completely agree, Wendy. If ANY other vendor was mentioned in the OP, this would have swiftly been redirected to the vender section, and the op would be told to ask that vendor. I was under the impression vendor names are not to be mentioned outside the marketplace. I have seen threads deleated for simply asking about moss, and mentioning the vendors name. Why is this thread still here? An ad is an ad. It shouldn't matter if the AD is negative or positive!


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## punctata

joshbaker14t said:


> This would be helpful, but I would imagine tricky for someone who is not tech savvy..


Yes but with a little research it is very easy. I use photobucket then download them there and copy and paste the image url here. Takes no more than a couple min.


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## punctata

WendySHall said:


> I think this thread is going way off track. Whether you believe her or not... there may very well be a little frog out there who could use the advice and opinions of those who know how to help it get better. I think all of the [redacted]crap should be dropped and the focus should be on helping the frog.
> 
> OP...pictures would help show the seriousness of the condition and perhaps get you more helpful replies. It also would be nice to see an "after" photo if you are successful in making him well.


In all honesty, what advice could be given has already been given. If we had pictures then maybe someone would see something else and address it. PLUS, I would like to see pictures because right now, the OP is basically hurting a companies image with no proof. I would like to take someone's word, but with so many people after [redacted], you never know if they have a agenda against them or not.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

punctata said:


> There is no hostility at all. Its a conversation and people have questions. To get more help, I would like to see pictures, Also once you bring up the vendors name, you open yourself for criticism and questioning.There are 2 issues at hand in this thread, the state of the frogs and the vendor who sold the sick frogs. Both trying to be figured out. Please do not start the Shame on you crap. This thread has been very civil so far.


No hostility at all? You opened your first statement in all caps with red letters in a larger than normal font. That screams hostility to me. You got called out on it and should just apologize instead of backtracking and making excuses.

Furthermore, everyone knows what someone means when they try to use the not so clever qualifier of "I'm not trying to say you're lying, but....." but let's face it, that exactly what you're doing. It like when someone says, " I'm not trying to be racist but," it means they know they're being racist. The use of such a qualifier is an attempt to disavow what you already know is the case and that you will promptly be accused of. It NEVER works.

Janet, you've now had many offers for help. I hope you have taken them up on them. Pictures would be helpful so that we can see the state of the frog and make further recommendations.

Have you seen a vet yet? If not do you plan to?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

punctata said:


> In all honesty, what advice could be given has already been given. If we had pictures then maybe someone would see something else and address it. PLUS, I would like to see pictures because right now, the OP is basically hurting a companies image with no proof. I would like to take someone's word, but with so many people after [redacted], you never know if they have a agenda against them or not.


Again youre questioning her integrity and honesty without any merit other than your own suspicions. This is shameful and rude. If and when she does post pictures will you then claim there is no evidence they are a frog from [redacted], because that's what they're saying, that they have nothing to do with this transaction. Pictures won't prove anything beyond the condition of the frog, so to suggest that you'll take the OPs word if they post pictures is completely disingenuous.


----------



## Halter

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Against youre questioning her integrity and honesty without any merit other than your own suspicions. This is shameful and rude. If and when she does post pictures will you then claim their is no evidence they are a frog from [redacted], because that's what they're saying, that they have nothing to do with this transaction. Pictures won't prove anything beyond the condition of the frog, so to suggest that you'll take the OPs word if they post pictures is completely disingenuous.


I really want to see a picture because if there is anything else that we may see, that she has not, that we can help the frogs out a little bit more. Regardless if they are from [redacted] or not a picture will def. help.


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## chuckpowell

Shame on you. She came here for help and many of you have attacked her, for nothing more than asking for help. Some of us have lives other than Dendroboard and taking the time to post pictures here, that won't really change how to treat the frog, is time we don't have. She asked for help, give it to her and take your fight about the vendor elsewhere. 

Chuck


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## Rusty_Shackleford

People, The Mom came here for advice to cure her sick frog that she rescued. Yes *RESCUED!* She came here because she has the best interest of the frog in her heart. Now you idiots slam her for doing that? Accuse her of being a liar? You're taking sides with [redacted], a known liar, purveyor of sick frogs, and convicted wildlife abuser? Really? Can you say [redacted] have the best interest of the frogs in their hearts? No you can't. I won't either, because I know it to be true. I've had some of [redacted] sick, emaciated frogs in my possession previously. Frogs that should have never been sold in their condition. LET THE RECORD SHOW this is a habitual and routine practice for [redacted] *IS* [redacted], it's just a continuation of the status quo. Shame on you people. Wake up and get you heads out of your a**es and see what's really going on. Help this poor woman with her newly rescued frog. Quit defending [redacted], just because they haven't done you wrong doesn't mean they won't. As far as I'm concerned you're just as bad as they are, yelling at and accusing things of a new hobbyist, trying to intimidate her. Just like [redacted], trying to run a new hobbyist out of the hobby before they even get going. Shame shame shame!


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## aspidites73

It has been said before 'if you want to make something popular, ban it!' [redacted] has gotten another chance to scrub over the scrutiny, place an ad for their company, and shrug off the unprovable by simply stating 'there is no proof'


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## Scott

*ENOUGH OF THE RHETORIC* - either *help *the original poster or do not *POST*.

Any more rhetoric gets removed and infracted.

s


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## The Mom

I will try and get some pictures. I have a teenage daughter who can take them and get them onto my laptop for me. She is still asleep at the moment, it's Saturday morning. I will also get a picture of my male who was purchased from the same seller the same day. I think that may help demonstrate that it is obvious that something is seriously wrong with the one I am asking for help with.

As far as the above post (from Scott - this is answering a post that is no longer there - sorry about that ... ):

1. I do not trust them, so no, I don't want their "help".

2. Well, I am not going to throw him into this. He is a nice guy, your average working guy, I don't he has time for all of this anyway. I don't want him scared off either. He is still interested in trying again. I sent him to Josh's frogs to buy other things for his set. I have offered to come over again and help him build it and see about getting him some new frogs at the next NorCal meeting. While I am not an expert I am better then no help at all. 

The customer is the one that bought the extra large extra tall exo terra tank, a mini tall (which you set up), 4 frogs plus all sorts of miscellaneous stuff. You couldn't have sold that many of those big tanks. The frogs were only in the small tank, the large one is still in its original condition, he has not set it up at all. As for me, the "OP" I was the woman in her 50's with the little blond girl who was totally delighted with her new pets. There weren't that many little girls there, I would think we would have stuck out at least a little.

3. I am sorry if I am inconsistent. I don't mean to be. Maybe I am not be expressing things correctly.

3a. The guy that emailed me a couple of months ago indicated he remembered me, signed his name [redacted]. Maybe I dealt with someone else. I dealt with a young man (maybe 30 years old) who apparently used to be a breeder and sold his operation to [redacted]. At least that is what he stated at the time. There were only 2 guys there, him and an older man who I never spoke with.

3b. Yeah, that is why I asked if I needed to buy those too. It would not have occurred to me to ask if it wasn't right there in front of me.

3c. The facebook page is fake. You can BUY "like" "share" and posts. So I ignore it.

3d I doubt you will hear from him. He still thought you were wonderful. When he told me he bought the frogs from you he did not expect a negative reaction at all. He does not spend time online. He is a working man, with kids, a mortgage, etc, not time to spend online. I only have more time because I am self employed and really don't work that many hours. I own a bunch of rental properties and flip real estate for a living.

3e Well you DID. You sold me a leuc and an auratus knowing full well I both intended to house them together and that I knew absolutely nothing about dart frogs. You sold this other guy a leuc, a blue auratus, a green auratus plus another that I could not identify as he flipped through his iphone showing me pictures. I will try and get a copy of those since it seems to be an issue. The leuc is the only frog still alive of his. Mine are doing fine, but only because I took a lot of effort. I left there with no instructions other then "mist daily" and feed about 10 ff's each. I did not even know how to get the darn ff's out, it was rather comical watching me trying to get a few flies and not hundreds out at once. Me feeling intimidated is on me, so I will give you that. I am responsible for my own feelings. I have not been threatened or anything. But I do feel under attack. I will own that.

3f I wasn't offered information or even advice. I would have still bought 3 frogs from you if I was told there was any issue at all. I just would have had my daughter pick, yellow or blue, not one of each. I had problems mixing right away. The auratus is so much shyer then the leuc that it was not getting enough food. The different personalites has them hopping in opposite directions when ever I open the door. The auratus hops for cover, the leuc wants to know what I have and comes out from wherever he is to see.

3g Again, most of that is fake. You will have a hard time convincing me that buying facebook activity is not part of your marketing budget. I could go on about my previous professional life, but I do know marketing very very well.

3f I will, I have to weed though the personal attacks against me though. I honestly never expected to be targeted with so much hostility. It is really offensive to me.


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## Pumilo

Have you received any local help with springtails yet? If you don't have something arranged yet, pm me.


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## frogfreak

Could we just wait for the pics and stop all the bickering?


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## WendySHall

Scott said:


> *ENOUGH OF THE RHETORIC* - either *help *the original poster or do not *POST*.
> 
> Any more rhetoric gets removed and infracted.
> 
> s


Just in case some people missed it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Scott said:


> *ENOUGH OF THE RHETORIC* - either *help *the original poster or do not *POST*.
> 
> Any more rhetoric gets removed and infracted.
> 
> s


I hope you'll uphold this, with the exception of The Moms reply to [redacted] and others. She has been maligned enough and deserves to address those parties and she did so politely and respectfully. There have been several posts after this clearly ignoring you Scott. I'd really love to reply them but I'll respect your request as a moderator.

Janet, if you need anymore help, please let me know.


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## ZookeeperDoug

punctata said:


> No it wasn't hostility at all. It was a "DUH" moment because no one asked for pictures. I was shocked no one asked for proof or pictures to help the frog out further. I was never mad or trying to be rude. I wrote in all CAPS to get attention to the fact that pictures should be used on here, ....


I believe you should read the thread in its entirety, in fact:



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Do you have any pictures of the Luec that [redacted] sold them?


I was in point of FACT the first person to ask for pictures. This is on the first page of the thread, post #7.

Pictures have been requested repeatedly since well before you joined the discussion.

I'll add this, pictures won't prove or disprove anything. A picture of an animal proves nothing. The only reason I want a picture is to help further try to diagnose the state of the animal so it can be helped.


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## Scott

That's an hour of my life I'll never get back. 

I've removed all references to the company and to the people at the company - and from the company itself and from people within the company.

IF ANY OF YOU ARE SPECIFIC IN REGARDS TO THE COMPANY, or people in it - you've got an infraction coming.

Why you ask? It was either that or remove the thread.

-o-

*Can we please keep it to helping the OP with her frog(s)?
*
Thank you.

s


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## WendySHall

(sigh) It seems my last post was entirely deleted simply because of one sentence (neither pro nor con) of who I thought the OP talked to that day. (Which is crazy considering the stuff that was left.) So, here is the rest of it again in a shorter nutshell version...

OP...

Did you buy the supplements that day or shortly after? Although you say that the frogs you personally purchased are doing fine...they all need good supplementation for the long term. I would highly recommend getting Repashy Calcium Plus at minimum and dust with it at every feeding.

If the original purchaser really wants to try darts again, you should really emphasize the importance of this board and him reading and learning the majority of care on his own rather than you giving it to him second-hand. No offense is intended, but this board can answer questions that you have never even dreamed of yet. Heck, I've been reading non-stop for a few years now and am nowhere near close to knowing it all.


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## Scott

Don't mention what's left. 

I might have to get out the axe instead of the knife I used.

I'm trying to ...
1) Keep this from getting deleted and ...
2) Keep it fair

I'm sorry if I took out good information. I tried to be careful.

s


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## WendySHall

You're wish is my command! 

...and I know your job is difficult, of that I have no doubt. Prolly just got tired of doing all of the [redact]eds.


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## The Mom

Well I guess honesty is not welcome here. That is really sad.

But on the frog. It took me hours to get the pictures, my daughter was not really all that helpful. Teenagers!

I am including my frog, Amber. He was purchased the same day by the same unmentionable vendor as the sick frog. It is just for comparisons sake, so you can relate to why I am so concerned about the sickly frog. Both frogs are about 5 months old, maybe 6. Amber is also a tribute to the supplier, he is a great looking frog if I don't say so myself. I did not capture him for a coin pic (his viv is to planted to get a coin and a pose at the same time), but over a month ago he was well over a quarter. I uploaded 2 poses just to show what kind of muscling I am expecting for the age.


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## oddlot

The frog may be smaller for some reason,but it doesn't look too skinny or sickly in my opinion.It just looks like a younger froglet to me.good luck with it though.


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## The Mom

OK, I got through most of the edited posts. I think some are missing. I have 16 "notifications" I have not gotten to.

I am sorry I am not online every minute. I am a single mother, as well as a working mother. I simply had to attend to other things. The entire picture thing look more time then you would imagine. For one, that frog does not exactly sit and look at me like my own pet frog does. It is a very small, very moving object.

I need some clarification on some things.

- on the pedialite, which I will run out and buy after I post, do I dilute it? It has some sodium in it and that concerns me. I have both distilled water available to me and RO water.

- any clues on just how I get the ff larva out without both letting out hundreds of ff's and crashing my culture? I though I would make some mini cultures and just feed off the living ff's when I went for the larva.

- I am hearing both, "dust every feeding" and "only some feedings". I do have the cal plus, so until I am confident otherwise I will go with that ever feeding. I fed it twice yesterday, 12 ff's each time, and yeah, I did watch to make sure there was no excess. It is got 12 this morning, and is about to get 12 more. So, my real question is, what is the possible harm of too much of a good thing?


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## The Mom

oddlot said:


> The frog may be smaller for some reason,but it doesn't look too skinny or sickly in my opinion.It just looks like a younger froglet to me.good luck with it though.


The frogs are the same age, or close to it. Both were purchased Aril 27, 2013.

The size difference is a lot. I am surprised you don't think it is skinny though, to me it looks like skin and bones.

I need more help then "luck". Remember it was housed with 3 frogs who are all now dead. That fact and the fact that is a LOT smaller then it should be means the frog needs more intervention then luck. He is lucky to be alive, but I think that is more because auturas may be a little less forgiving of whatever went wrong for the original 4.


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## The Mom

WendySHall said:


> Did you buy the supplements that day or shortly after? Although you say that the frogs you personally purchased are doing fine...they all need good supplementation for the long term. I would highly recommend getting Repashy Calcium Plus at minimum and dust with it at every feeding.


I bought them about a week after acquiring the frogs. While the city I live in is fairly large it is a farming community, mostly immigrant workers, and availability is limited. Mail is an issue because the temps are usually close to 100 or even higher this time of year. I bought Rep-Cal Calcuim with vit. d3 and Zoo med's Reptivite. I alternate days on which I use. I have a total of 8 frogs, all seem to be very healthy and happy. They all, even the auratus, spend most of the day out and about.


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## Pumilo

I have seen much skinnier frogs bounce back. I will not comment on the size as I have never morphed a leucomelas.
If he is eating well, and you don't have any pathogen issues, you should be ok. It may be much smaller, but not sickly skinny.


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## ChrisK

Yeah I can't comment on the whole size, but the skinniness doesn't look too bad.


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## Pumilo

The Mom said:


> I bought them about a week after acquiring the frogs. While the city I live in is fairly large it is a farming community, mostly immigrant workers, and availability is limited. Mail is an issue because the temps are usually close to 100 or even higher this time of year. I bought Rep-Cal Calcuim with vit. d3 and Zoo med's Reptivite. I alternate days on which I use. I have a total of 8 frogs, all seem to be very healthy and happy. They all, even the auratus, spend most of the day out and about.


You are missing a usable form of vitamin A in your vitamin schedule. Your frogs need a preformed vitamin A, or Retinol. You could grind up human grade vitamins, but that is difficult to get small enough to stick well.
Repashy includes a usable form of vitamin A in their Repashy Calcium Plus. It is designed to replace both of the supplements you are currently using. You could also consider sticking with your current schedule, but adding Repashy Vitamin A plus.


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## oddlot

Here's a pic of a skinny frog that I googled and believe it was a member here that recently posted it.Notice the indent in the belly and how large the head looks(but is normal size)and how bulgy the eyes look.This is a skinny frog,or as I would describe skin and bones.Your guy may be small in size but if you keep feeding it and supplementing it(I would highly recommend repashy calcium plus)you should be fine with it,unless it eats and gets skinny.The back legs on the frog look pretty meaty too.There can be several factors why it is smaller than your others.Even though you may have bought them the same day,were they the same age?What were you feeding and how often and supplements versus the same with the person you rescued the frog from as well as misting schedules,temps and lighting times.Some of these things can make a difference especially if you were more diligent with these things than he was.These are just some possibilities why it could be smaller.


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## frogparty

The frogs weight looks just fine. In all honesty a lot of my male Leucs always look slender in comparison to my females. It's hard to say from the pic, but the body structure says female to me. Give it some regular feedings and it should plump up in no time


After all that, he cute little frog wasn't even that badly off to begin with. What a difference seeing a picture makes eh? Sure makes it easier to give an honest appraisal of the situation


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## frogparty

Ok, went and looked at the pics again. The first frog ( the frog in question yes?) looks to be a male in fine physical form. Amber looks definitely female to me. 

Size next to a dime...... My Leucs currently morph out near that size, but used to morph out much smaller when I fed them a less awesome tadpole diet. That could easily be a 2 or 3 month old froglet that morphed out smaller initially.


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## The Mom

frogparty said:


> Ok, went and looked at the pics again. The first frog ( the frog in question yes?) looks to be a male in fine physical form. Amber looks definitely female to me.
> 
> Size next to a dime...... My Leucs currently morph out near that size, but used to morph out much smaller when I fed them a less awesome tadpole diet. That could easily be a 2 or 3 month old froglet that morphed out smaller initially.


Amber is male. He calls each and every morning and a couple of random calls during the day. His gender is not in question, regardless of his name. He was named as a froglet by an 11 year old.

This frog was purchased almost 4 months ago. While it still may have been sold fresh out of the water it is older then 2-3 months. I looked at all the stock for sale. There were sexed subadults and froglets, the froglets were all about the same size. I ended up with Amber because my daughter loves those eye spots. He is also the same on each side, which I like.


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## frogparty

yeah definitely very small to be +6months old.


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## frogface

That little guy is cute. I think he'll end up being fine. 

Sorry, to hear about his tank mates, though. Not an uncommon story but I guess we aren't talking about that anymore on this thread. 

ETA: I can see that he is not as healthy looking as your Amber. Keep us posted on how he's doing with his private digs and supplemented food. You might consider getting fecals done on him. Don't recall if we've already touched on that and way too lazy to go back and look.


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## frogparty

This is where care initially comes into play. It is very likely that this little guy us stunted. He may NEVER reach full size, and theres a chance it may never mature sexually in a normal way. 

Id have to double check my zoology notes to verify this, but let me give you an example I definitely remember, in fish. 

Salmonids (trout, salmon, char etc) that are denied proper nutrition while young and in rapid growth, are often stunted to well below 25% of their potential average size and weight. Fish ( Id have to check for amphibians) can actually SHRINK when placed into life threatening malnutrition situations, not just in weight, but in overall length as well. 
Ive seen stunting many times in the reptile industry with baby bearded dragons especially that were malnourished and kept without a basking site. 
This does not NECESSARILY mean that upon original purchase the animal was already doomed, months of neglect could have THEORETICALLY shrunk it down to a size smaller than when initially purchased ( I will dig out the zoology book for confirmation/denial of this) perhaps the info is in captive amphibian medicine and husbandry (i dont own a copy) 

Id try to give it foods that 
1) hold onto supplements well- winged melanogaster are better than wingless for this. That frog is PLENTY big enough to take melanogaster, and should be encouraged to do so, so you can ensure it is getting proper calcium and vitamin A supplementation. I would encourage the feeding of flies preferentially to springtails at this point for just this reason
2) provide a feeding station so it can get food whenever it wants, and hopefully have access to fly larvae which work wonders for packing on weight to underweight frogs. 
3) try to get access to subterranean termites, the small workers are PACKED with goodness.. think of it like froglet prime rib. 
Keep it alone for at least 90 days and observe it, and if at ALL possible, get fecals done. 

Good luck, I love it when their pattern links the 2nd and 3rd band.


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## ZookeeperDoug

I'm happy to say the frog doesn't look as bad as was initially concerned, however; I'll disagree with most of the above in saying that no, it isn't healthy, or in fine physical form at all. It should be much larger than that for its age. A 6 month old frog that size, I would absolutely be alarmed. But hey, maybe it shrunk!  dunno, just grasping at straws... 

I am glad that you rescued this frog. It needed better care and I'm confident that you're going to give it that care. Please keep us updated.

Please get fecals done at least. If it had something like bd or ranavirus it PROBABLY would have already perished, but I would still run those too. You should run these tests while all new frogs that enter your collection, no matter the source or condition of the frog. I'd invite you to share with us those results, positive or negative so that we can help you further treat the frog if there are any positive test results.


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## frogparty

Doug, let me check my zoology texts when I get home to see if that has been documented in amphibians ( shrinking) I participated in a very lengthy study while in fisheries school documenting this in fish, as part of a multi faceted study dealing with the captive propagation and rearing of salmonids in hatchery settings. Well documented in fish.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Chris.

It's Chris, right?

Im a marine biologist, I'm very familiar with the concept in fishes, not just salmonids. Happens in many different fish families, but not all. If you can find a specific mention in peer reviewed literature that shows dendrobatidae are subject to this shrinkage, that's fine. It's gotta be relevant to dendrobatidae though, not just some reference to some amphibians. I do have a copy of captive amphibian husbandry, the AZA husbandry manual, etc, but they're all in boxes in the garage and I wasnt planning to unpack them until we move again. This is a time where we need Ed. Someone turn on the bat signal.

And why does this subject have me thinking of a certain Sinefeld episode.

"I was in the pool!"


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## frogparty

It's Jason. 

Of course I would use a specific genus reference if I can find one. 
I use salmonids as my reference because I have piles of literature and first hand study experience and publication data to back up my claims. Science- it aint true if you can't prove it.


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## WendySHall

Wow, that picture took me by surprise. I've seen emaciated frogs...and OP, this doesn't look to be the case. It may be small in size, but not severely underweight. In my opinion, I wouldn't bother with fruit fly larvae and would definitely skip the pedialyte baths (I think that would just cause it undue stress) unless there are further problems with it. You stated that he is readily eating with no problems (correct?), so I would just ensure that he is getting a nice amount of dusted of fruit flies every day. A vet check would also be a good idea.

If purchased at the end of April, the absolute minimum age is 3 1/2 months. There may have been additional stock you didn't see of younger (than Amber) froglets. So, I wouldn't automatically assume that this is a 6 month old frog. Hopefully with correct feeding and care this frog will grow at a normal rate from this point on.

I don't have tons of experience with Leucs, but I have a group of four standards here that I purchased in November of last year as young froglets. They were two each from two separate lines from the same breeder (not yours). When they arrived you could easily see the differences between them because two were more orange and a little smaller while the other two were more yellow and a little larger...yet they were all about the same age. Now, I am assuming the breeder cared for all of these froglets in the same manner...and there has been no differences in my care of the four since I've had them as they are housed in a group...but still, 9 months later, you can still tell the difference between them. There is a noticeable size difference between the more orange and the more yellows. My point to this is...perhaps your frogs are from different lines and this plays a factor. (?)

Many breeders still use the Rep-cal Calcium that you have (usually in conjunction with Herptivite)...but I have no idea about Reptivite. But, as stated previously, you are then lacking a usable form of Vitamin A that the frogs need. I just find that it's better/easier to tell those who are new to start out with Repashy Calcium Plus because it contains everything necessary to keep your frogs healthy. Then, if you later read up and want to play around with different supplements, you are always free to add in what you want and can hopefully do it responsibly.


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## ForbiddenFrogs

"The Mom" Ive pm you to offer my help and free springs and flys but no response, if you need help you have to reply to the pms you are receiving.. if it was me I would have pmed everyone back already before posting more and get the help you truly need.


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## shrimppimp

surely if these people who bought the frogs had done any homework in the first place they wouldnt be mixing the frogs all in the same tank anyway,a classic impulse buy....maybe


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## Judy S

Shrimpimp...ooo...harsh way to start your posting debut...we have all been beginners at some time...pointing out the obvious to someone who has put up with a lot of criticism at this point is just not fair, polite..or helpful...Good manners go a long way...and if someone is willing to expose themselves this way on DB, they should be encouraged...not marginalized.


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## The Mom

shrimppimp said:


> surely if these people who bought the frogs had done any homework in the first place they wouldnt be mixing the frogs all in the same tank anyway,a classic impulse buy....maybe


You are correct. Zero research at all. I was shopping for a red eyed tree frog, got sold on the darts though. I did not waste time researching once I had them though.

I know I have not gotten to the "notifications" yet. I have figure out how again as well as get time. I am also dealing with 2 kids at home. School has already started for them and they take most of my time. This very second one is bugging me for new shoes for softball, so already my time online is up.

This frog still looks like sticks and a big head to me. I have 2 other leucs too, 13 and 14 weeks out of the water and I would swear they are bigger them this one. Meatier any way. I would give you pics o them too, but they have taken up residency in a log and won't stay out long enough for a pic and I don't want to catch them since I am not worried about them at all.


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## Scott

Just do your best. Try to vary the food choices. Smaller insects will often trigger a feed response better than fruit flies. Take the local person up on the offer for springtails - that is probably your best bet currently to get the feeding reflex revved up.

s


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## The Mom

Judy S said:


> Shrimpimp...ooo...harsh way to start your posting debut...we have all been beginners at some time...pointing out the obvious to someone who has put up with a lot of criticism at this point is just not fair, polite..or helpful...Good manners go a long way...and if someone is willing to expose themselves this way on DB, they should be encouraged...not marginalized.


Thanks Judy. Most of the attacks against me were deleted by the moderator (I did not request that and honestly prefer truth to censorship) so Shrimpimp had no way of knowing how hostile it got.

I do not know if the purchaser of the ill fated frogs was an impulse buy. He keeps lizards and turtles, all of which looked really great. Guessing I would say yes. He likely took his kids with him and they talked him into them.

The sales from the unmentionable vendor were quit exertive. There was also a woman there encouraging me and my daughter along. I realize now that she probably wasn't a customer at all, but employed like snake oil salesmen plant fans in the crowd. The unmentionable company is spending a LOT of money trying to look like something it isn't, so it should not be a surprise that I and others like myself would not realize what kind of people they were actually dealing with.

Shrimpimp my biggest sin here was TRUST. I trusted that vendor, who I openly told that I knew nothing, to guide me and not sell me anything inappropriate. The other buyer is a person much like myself, trusting, open, honest and it is likely he is also like me - we naturally assume others are trustworthy and honest without unless there is evidence to the contrary.


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## frogparty

Exactly how old do you think Amber is? 6months is pretty young to hear any calling from leucs


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## Scott

Exactly what I had thought when I read that.

s


frogparty said:


> Exactly how old do you think Amber is? 6months is pretty young to hear any calling from leucs


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## WendySHall

Hmmm... what is a normal age to expect to hear a Leuc call?

I was actually starting to worry about my group of four who are at least 10 months old because I've never heard a peep. Although, admittedly, I haven't done anything yet to try to get them to call (like increasing humidity/misting, playing calls, etc.)...but I've been thinking about giving it a go to see if I can see if I have at least one male in there.

OP...to get to your messages from other members...
Go to the top right side of this screen and find your name.
Click under your name where it says "private messages".
That will take you to your Inbox.

I would think that if you are worried that the froglet is starved and needed more than fruit flies, that would be one of the first things you would do since you have had many offers of springs, etc.


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## ZookeeperDoug

frogparty said:


> Exactly how old do you think Amber is? 6months is pretty young to hear any calling from leucs


Pretty sure amber is one of the other luecs she got from someplace else and is 13-14 months OOW? I don't have time to go back and check right now so please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## oddlot

Actually,she states that she bought them on the same day from the same vendor.That doesn't mean they were the same age or cared for the way she cared for hers though.post #55


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## frogfreak

Leucs can call that young. They were our first frogs and when we brought them home from meeting Mark, they were calling within 24hours. They were 4 months old. And yes, we were  surprised.


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## ZookeeperDoug

oddlot said:


> Actually,she states that she bought them on the same day from the same vendor.That doesn't mean they were the same age or cared for the way she cared for hers though.post #55


Thanks, I stand corrected. I know my French Guyana Banded Luecs from UE started calling Very early.


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## frogface

My leuc started calling around 5 months. Then he stopped and was quiet until he was around 8-10 months.


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## WendySHall

Guess mine are gonna make me work for it then. Oh well...some more playing I get to do in the frogroom!


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## Ed

frogparty said:


> .
> 
> Salmonids (trout, salmon, char etc) that are denied proper nutrition while young and in rapid growth, are often stunted to well below 25% of their potential average size and weight. Fish ( Id have to check for amphibians) can actually SHRINK when placed into life threatening malnutrition


I have yet to see documentation for shrinking in post-metamorphic amphibians (didn't dig into tadpoles to check) however one of the things we need to be aware of is that many animals (including salmonids) can undergo compensatory growth allowing them to catch back up (in fact alternating periods of starvation and regular feeding can induce more rapid growth than fish fed a regular control diet in the same period (see for example http://training.fws.gov/CSP/Precour...gy/compensatory_mechansims/Ali_et_al_2003.pdf )




frogparty said:


> . situations, not just in weight, but in overall length as well.
> Ive seen stunting many times in the reptile industry with baby bearded dragons especially that were malnourished and kept without a basking site.


In the case of the bearded dragons above there are multiple factors contributing to the reduced size at maturity and a lot of them are due to the enviroment in which the animals are housed (for example stunted size can be due to disruption of metabolic calcium homeostasis due to insufficient temperature and the impact from the diet is secondary or negligible when compared to the environmental impact... (see some of the discussion here http://www.caza-narg.ca/ref/ref200806-2.pdf) If the environmental conditions are good the lizard (as with other animals) can engage in compensatory growth and recover lost ground when an appropriate diet is resumed. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## frogparty

Thanks Ed.


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## frogparty

Thats good news for the OP, if it was indeed stunted, theres a good chance it can still attain a good mature size.

Plump the little fellow up!


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## oldlady25715

What the heck kind of a name for a dart frog company is "redacted"?


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## The Mom

I just wanted to post an update. This little guy is doing great. He started calling as soon as he had some plants. I see no signs of illness, although he is still under size. He certainly has fattened up, nice legs now too, not little twigs.

I think the problem for him and his deceased tank mates was the food they were offered. Aside from no suppliments they were only given Turkish Glider fruit flies. I know, maybe it should not matter, but those gliders are more challenging to catch, especially dust free. They may not have been the best choice to sell to a new keeper with froglets. I am not excusing the previous owner, he should have at least watched at first to make sure they were feeding.

On the glider plus side, my more robust frogs do seem to enjoy the challenge of chasing down the prey. I only feed them these every other day because they take all day to catch them all. I had thought all the fruit flies were about the same, but that is not correct, they behave differently.

Thank you to those that were kind and supportive to me. As a new frog keeper, and person in general, I appreciate it. To those that were rude and unkind I will keep my words to them to myself. After all, this is a family forum.


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## WendySHall

I really don't think that Turkish Gliders were the problem. I've raised my Leucs up on them. (That's the only type of ff I've ever used my entire time in the hobby.) But...doesn't matter now. I'm just glad to hear he's doing okay.


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