# Leaf litter



## lizardstowe (Sep 6, 2005)

Hello,
I had a few questions about LL most recently I ordered some froglets that were too small for my larger tanks. I set up 10gal to house them, in the 10gal I used (for the first time) LL. I gathered some Magnolia leaves from the tree and boiled them before putting them in the tank. I wonder if it is ness to boil them and if not how do you clean them for the tank? Also, what about Oak leaves or Poplar? Does everyone use dried or what?

Thanks
Matt


----------



## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I too use Magnolia leaves in my vivs. Sometimes I boil them, sometimes I don't. The times I boil them is when I'm using them in vivs that have frogs right now. I set up vivs that I don't plan to put frogs in for weeks later and those vivs I just rinse the leaves off.

I know its probably not as safe as some people would do, but I haven't had any problems with it.

I know people up north that can't get Magnolia leaves use Oak leaves and have no problems with them. Another great leaf to use is Sea Grape if you can find it. But they most definately need to be rinsed prior to use if not boiled.


----------



## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

I use Live Oak leaves, picked from the ground and double boiled (I'm paranoid). These are much smaller leaves than the Oaks found up north (kind of almond shaped). The darts love them and they last quite awhile.

I have access to Magnolia but have been too lazy to ask the neighbor for some (shame on me).

After talking to Dr. Frye, he indicated that the easiest way for frogs to pick up parasites is from things introduced in the viv that we obtained from our backyards/nurseries. He stressed the importance of properly preparing/cleaning items prior to introduction.


----------



## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

I am not worried baout parasites as much as chemicals. I dont think in nature frogs have their suroundings sterilized.


----------



## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

True Ryan, 

But in nature frogs do not stand in poop 24/7.


----------



## Guest (Mar 22, 2006)

Another good leaf for litter is seagrape leaves. You may not have access to them in NC but down here in FL :shock: You could take 50 leaves off a mature tree, and it wouldn't look smaller.


----------



## lizardstowe (Sep 6, 2005)

What happens after 51 (No NO DON'T Do IT!!!?!). I live in the City (HA HA HA more like a pretend city) but I do have access to a lot of wooded area which should rule out chemicals, do you think I should boil them to remove fungi and wee beasties. Also, I was toying with the idea of collecting rain water in this wooded area, how do you guy feel about that, I mean should I fear the ever dreaded ACID rain?


----------



## jbates (Apr 5, 2004)

I *definitely* recommend boiling (or microwaving, or baking) your leaves before putting them into your viv. I didn't, and now a few of my vivs are infested with slugs. It's really frustrating!

-John


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The major point about leaf litter is getting them from a clean source. I don't have a clean source since I live so close to the city (what isn't sprayed gets enough air pollution I won't use them) so I get leaf litter from friends who have clean places. I have had slug issues, even after rinsing, but after the leaves completely dried out that wasn't an issue (leaves in a dry box for 4 months makes it very hard for bugs like that to survive).

Recomended leaves are magnolia, oak, sea grape, and wild almond. These leaves break down slowly and last a long time in the tanks, while most other leaves we have access to, such as poplar, break down quickly in rainforest environments.

I don't boil the leaves unless I'm making tadpole tea (oak or wild almond only, don't use magnolia or sea grape) where the water left over from boiling is tannin rich TT concentrate, and the left over leaf skeletons make great tadpole munchies. Baking would be better, but makes the leaves brittle so you have to be careful with them or they break (put them on a baking sheet, after they come out don't handle them, just spray them down well til they are pliable again).


----------



## lizardstowe (Sep 6, 2005)

*Oak*

so any type of oak is ok?


----------



## benmz (Feb 18, 2004)

For use in a viv for hiding places, yes any oak is OK. You can use a variety of other leaves as well, but most people use Oak since they don't rot as quickly and can last in viv for about 6 months or more before disintigrating, while "other" leaves fall apart much, much sooner. Just make sure that the ones you use are dead leaves, from the ground or dead and dried on the branch otherwise the green leaves will rot, mold and mildew in your viv.

Tadpole tea is an entirely different subject.

-Ben


----------



## Darryl (Dec 2, 2005)

I do not so much boil my leaves as such, but rather blanche them in boiling water. I then lay them out on a cookie baking tray and dry them out in the oven at a low-medium temperature.

I also store my leaves in freezer bag, in the freezer, so I have leaves available all the time.
once I remove them from the freezer and they have thawed out I then blanche and dry them.

Using the above system, I have not yet had any prpblems with introducing nasties into my tanks.

I use: Oak, Magnolia, Bamboo and small Palm fronds. The last two give a more realistic look in the vivs.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I make sure the stuff is well dried before use which deals with a lot of the unwanted issues. While you can bring parasites in from the outside with the leaves, unless you are quarantining your plants or getting them and the other furnishings from clean sources then the risk is no worse than the other things you are adding to the tank. (in other words, why go through all of these elaborate procedures when you buy/trade clippings from someone else and put them into your tank without a disinfection/quarantine period.)

As a final item to consider, any hot water treatment is going to rupture the cellular structure in the dried leaf causing it to degrade faster. 

Ed


----------



## Darryl (Dec 2, 2005)

I use the fact that leaf breaks down a lot faster because of the boiling. because of the faster breakdown it is easier for the springtails and other invertabrates to consume, and as a result they show a high presence in the viv.


----------



## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

So what are everyones thoughts on just nuking the leaves in the microwave before putting them into a tank?

-Shelley


----------



## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

snmreptiles said:


> So what are everyones thoughts on just nuking the leaves in the microwave before putting them into a tank?
> 
> -Shelley


Fire? I dont know, just a thought.


----------



## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

:lol: Well I haven't had any start on fire! lol I didn't say put them in there for ten minutes. We usually do just nuk them. I was just curious if that is an acceptable method or not.

-Shelley


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Microwaves heat by “zapping” water particles to excite them and cause heat. Dry leaves lack water. I suggest misting leaves then microwaving them. 
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jaosn Juchems


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Id also like to understand the nuking idea. I can say I have seen a unnoticed spider make it through 3-4 mins of nuking...

There was an interesting topic on animal planet today on the toughest animal. This small bug could survive temps from -300 to 300, and just shut its body down in extreme cases. They claimed one had also been shut down for over 120 years! WOW!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sounds like a water bear (Tardigrade). 

In these cases nuking is way overkill in my opinion.. 

Ed


----------



## Guest (Apr 4, 2006)

Ed makes some great points. Great post.
I am fortunate enough to have a perfect source of oak leaves.. my back yard.. Thankfully my neighbors are enlightened enough to realize the benefits of not spraying their lawns, and of course a wonderful result of this is a worry free source of leaves for my frog room. 
I have never boiled my leaves for the same reason as Ed outlines in his post. As with other members, the only time I boil them is when I am brewing a batch of tadpole tea. 

Ryan Ivankovic


----------



## benmz (Feb 18, 2004)

Kyle and others,
Someone above said it right, microwaves excite water molecules so much so that they turn liquid water to gas at very high rates (think of the lid popping off when you microwave a closed tupperwar container with food). I doubt that you can get ALL of the water molecules out of a leaf. There would still be some water vapor trapped between the cells, so they would definately heat up.
The major reason for microwaving leaves, at least how I understand it, is that they would excite the water molecules within any organisms found on the leaf. Since we know that most living things are made up of mostly water, we should expect the same thing to happen to that little parasite as happens to the tupperware container.....pop. :shock: 

-Ben


----------



## Guest (Apr 5, 2006)

But if microwaves were so effective at sterilization, why is it that they are not in widespread use in hospitals?

I was still not convinced that there was enough water in a dried oak leaf to heat it up anywhere near the point of potential sterilization, if at all. 
I decided to do a little "experiment" and take the "Pepsi Challenge." Here are my anecdotal results. 

Seven dried oak leaves were placed into the microwave. These leaves had no accompanying materials placed with them with the exception of the air in the microwave, and the microwaves interior contents which included the glass turntable. After one minute in the microwave on "high power" in a 1000W microwave, there was no noticable change in temperature in the leaves. The leaves were then placed into the microwave for two minutes on high power uninterrupted. Again, there was no noticable difference in the temperature of the leaves. The same leaves were then put into the microwave for five minutes in high power. There was only a slight change in temperature of the leaves, and this was barely noticable. It was suspected that this change in temperature was only a result of the warming of the air inside the microwave due to the moisture levels in the air itself. 

Again, I feel that dried leaves from a pesticide free source do not need to be sterilized, though if you feel they do, the microwave is a poor choice for their sterilization. If you do wish to sterilize your leaves, boiling water seems to be a far more reliable choice. However, I fully agree with Ed in that sterilizing the leaves is rather redundant if you are not sterilizing the soil, gravel, plants, and other furnishings you are putting into the vivarium.

Ryan


----------



## Guest (Apr 5, 2006)

benmz said:


> The major reason for microwaving leaves, at least how I understand it, is that they would excite the water molecules within any organisms found on the leaf. Since we know that most living things are made up of mostly water, we should expect the same thing to happen to that little parasite as happens to the tupperware container.....pop. :shock:
> 
> -Ben


Again, I am not convinced there is enough water in an organism even as large as a mite to heat it up any large degree by itself. From a personal experience, I have accidentally had small indian meal moths in the microwave for periods of ragning from two to five minutes that flew away as soon as the door was opened. This was not an uncommon occurrence in a house with an indian meal moth infestation. On a side note, although my darts relished the larva that I would find around the house, I don't think I would ever attempt culturing them after the eight year infestation we had before we moved. 

Ryan


----------



## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Three quick points:
I have microwaved plant tissue culture media and containers rendering them sterile with no signs of contam. through 1 month of culture. 
The armed services also use microwaves to sterilize food rations packaged in plastic pouches. 
I also microwave my FF containers to kill any mites before use.


----------



## benmz (Feb 18, 2004)

The problem lies in that the microwave beams do not fully bounce over all of the area within the microwave, hence the suggestion of stirring/turning food half way through your TV dinner heating process. An organism would have be in that beam for a while in order to get nuked. I do think that microwaving leaves is a bit silly, but if that makes you feel more comfortable putting them in your vivs, then go ahead and do it. Microwaved leaves vs unmicrowaved leaves don't hurt the frogs (any parasites on those leaves may) I have never microwaved leaves.

On a side note, last summer around July I had a springtail culture loaded with mites and wasn't producing well. I put that baby in the microwave for about 5-10 minutes, can't remember. It killed everything. I put in more springtails from another culture and today it is still mite free.

-Ben


----------



## Guest (Apr 6, 2006)

benmz said:


> On a side note, last summer around July I had a springtail culture loaded with mites and wasn't producing well. I put that baby in the microwave for about 5-10 minutes, can't remember. It killed everything. I put in more springtails from another culture and today it is still mite free.
> 
> -Ben


This doesn't surprise me, but remember, there surely was plenty of moisture  in your springtail culture. The moisture levels in the medium would have been adequate to heat the "medium" itself up, and the heat from this would have been responsible for killing the mites. Why was there enough heat? Because there was enough moisture. 
I don't dispute that something containing adequate amounts moisture can be sterilized in the microwave... it certainly can be sterilized. It just needs plenty of moisture to heat up. My point is simply that microwaving something that is bone dry is a rather ineffective way to sterilize it, as very few water molecules to be agitated means little agitiation, and thus little resulting heat. Accordingly, a bone dry leaf has little water in it, and thus will not heat up in a microwave by itself. And with little to no heat, you haven't a very good chance at sterilization in this situation.


----------



## drewman1962 (Apr 16, 2012)

OK, Newbie Alert!!! 
So let me see if I am understanding the leaf thing. I am in Michigan and live in the woods. So if I gather dried Oak leaves this fall from the ground or from the trees. All I should have to do is rinse them to remove any dirt or anything else on them. Dry them gently on cookie sheets on low heat. Pack them loosely in a shoe box. Place them in my freezer. Them I can just pull from the freezer and use as needed??


----------

