# Bioactive Substrates



## Cakers (Sep 10, 2017)

Is there anything to specifically made bioactive substrates that make it better than ABG or clay? I see it sold and words like bioactive but are they really better? They sell for a lot more than regular substrate types.


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## baskis (Jun 7, 2015)

Do you have links to these products being sold? I think there might be a misunderstanding as the ‘bioactivity’ just refers to the presence of microfauna (springtails and isopods typically) in the enclosure. 

Either of the substrates you listed could be bioactive substrates once they are seeded with microfauna.


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## Cakers (Sep 10, 2017)

Not really about springtails or isopods my understanding it is beneficial fungus and other microrgansisms.
https://www.joshsfrogs.com/josh-s-frogs-biobedding-tropical-bioactive-substrate-10-quarts.html


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Cakers said:


> They sell for a lot more than regular substrate types.


Not really. The Josh's stuff is sold in 10 qt bags for 19.99, the abg mix is sold in 4 qt bags for 7.99.


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## baskis (Jun 7, 2015)

Cakers said:


> Not really about springtails or isopods my understanding it is beneficial fungus and other microrgansisms.
> https://www.joshsfrogs.com/josh-s-frogs-biobedding-tropical-bioactive-substrate-10-quarts.html


My mistake, I hadn’t seen these


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Marketing. Its just the newest fad to drum up business. People have also lost their mind on this subject in certain groups.

Look up your local turface dealer. Pay $15 for a 20lb bag of mvp and call it a day.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

S2G said:


> Marketing. Its just the newest fad to drum up business. People have also lost their mind on this subject in certain groups.


There are books discussing the use of bioactive substrates in the reptile hobby that are 15 years old, so I wouldn't exactly call it the newest fad...
I have used that Bioactive substrate mix from Josh's in Crested Gecko vivs and I have no complaints, but I personally wouldn't use it for my dart frog vivs.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

JPP said:


> There are books discussing the use of bioactive substrates in the reptile hobby that are 15 years old, so I wouldn't exactly call it the newest fad...
> I have used that Bioactive substrate mix from Josh's in Crested Gecko vivs and I have no complaints, but I personally wouldn't use it for my dart frog vivs.


For those of us who might be ignorant of the potential benefits, JPP, would you mind summarizing what bioactive substrates are (and are not)? Also, I am curious why you use the bioactive substrate for your crested gecko but wouldn't suggest using it for dart frogs? Thanks!

Mark


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> For those of us who might be ignorant of the potential benefits, JPP, would you mind summarizing what bioactive substrates are (and are not)? Also, I am curious why you use the bioactive substrate for your crested gecko but wouldn't suggest using it for dart frogs? Thanks!
> 
> Mark


Technically, we're all likely using forms of "bioactive" substrates in our dart frog vivs. I don't think there are any benefits over ABG for dart frog keepers. Its more about keeping other reptiles and amphibians in a more natural enclosure much like we do our planted vivariums, instead of using newspaper or paper towel as substrate in barren cages. As for Josh's particular version of the substrate mix, I don't think the particulate consistency and ratios of the substrate components are similar enough to ABG to be used in the higher humidity dart frog vivs. ABG seems to drain a little better/faster and probably has more longevity, for example. Their biobedding stuff is better suited to tropical animals with a bit more enclosure ventilation in my opinion, such as geckos, tree frogs, etc. The texture of it seems more "soil-like", in a way. Its also apparently pre-inoculated with fungi and other things.
Buts its also easy enough to create your bioactive mixes if you like. There are many 'recipes' around in books and online too. I know the book 'The Art of Keeping Snakes' by Philippe de Vosjoli discusses it some extent.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

JPP said:


> There are books discussing the use of bioactive substrates in the reptile hobby that are 15 years old, so I wouldn't exactly call it the newest fad...
> I have used that Bioactive substrate mix from Josh's in Crested Gecko vivs and I have no complaints, but I personally wouldn't use it for my dart frog vivs.


It cannot be truly accomplished in a enclosed system. I think people get naturalistic confused with bio-active. Its such an overused term for marketing and it works. Hell your doorknob is bioactive.

Unless you were originally planning on keeping your darts on paper towels or something like that. Its totally pointless. I mean it's a vivarium right?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JPP said:


> Its more about keeping other reptiles and amphibians in a more natural enclosure much like we do our planted vivariums, instead of using newspaper or paper towel as substrate in barren cages.


Hmmm. I don't know. I think 'bioactive' refers to the method of keeping a viv that is allegedly 'self cleaning' or 'self maintaining' in the sense that substrate infauna/inflora consume the wastes of the display animals. 'Naturalistic' is more an aesthetic concept (the contrary of 'barren'), using materials that look and feel and smell natural. One can have a bioactive viv that isn't naturalistic, or have a naturalistic viv that isn't bioactive.

I think that pointing out this distinction is necessary, since there seem to be keepers who hear that keeping their blood python, say, in a naturalistic enclosure is good for the animal (which it probably is), and make the intuitive leap to the idea that this enclosure is somehow supposed to safely process a two pound lump of solid waste (which it probably isn't).

Edit: typing while you were posting, S2G, and I'm kicking myself that I didn't think of the point about the doorknob, which I agree with completely.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

ABG is another loosely thrown around group of words. Unless it has the original abg ingredients then it's just a substrate mix and not abg(JF does this). Saying its abg just helps it sell better than saying S2G's custom substrate mix.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Hmmm. I don't know. I think 'bioactive' refers to the method of keeping a viv that is allegedly 'self cleaning' or 'self maintaining' in the sense that substrate infauna/inflora consume the wastes of the display animals. 'Naturalistic' is more an aesthetic concept (the contrary of 'barren'), using materials that look and feel and smell natural. One can have a bioactive viv that isn't naturalistic, or have a naturalistic viv that isn't bioactive.
> 
> I think that pointing out this distinction is necessary, since there seem to be keepers who hear that keeping their blood python, say, in a naturalistic enclosure is good for the animal (which it probably is), and make the intuitive leap to the idea that this enclosure is somehow supposed to safely process a two pound lump of solid waste (which it probably isn't).
> 
> Edit: typing while you were posting, S2G, and I'm kicking myself that I didn't think of the point about the doorknob, which I agree with completely.


Naturalistic means mimicking the environment the animal came from. Aesthetics are aesthetics. 99% of dart vivariums are naturalistic, but are not biotopes. Being a vivarium its naturalistic and somewhat bioactive. So unless your going to provide someone with a self sustaining eco system then the whole labeling everything bioactive is just preying on someone's naivety.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

S2G said:


> It cannot be truly accomplished in a enclosed system. I think people get naturalistic confused with bio-active. Its such an overused term for marketing and it works. Hell your doorknob is bioactive.
> 
> Unless you were originally planning on keeping your darts on paper towels or something like that. Its totally pointless. I mean it's a vivarium right?


What can't be accomplished in an enclosed system? A completely self sustaining system or something? If that's what you mean, I don't think anyone expects that to be a realistic possibility.
Like I said in my previous post, this type of discussion doesn't make much difference to dart keepers. They generally already have both 'naturalistic' and 'bioactive' enclosures already (which pdf vivs pretty much are). Other hobbyists that keep reptiles and other creatures though aren't always using vivarium-style enclosure/husbandry concepts.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Hmmm. I don't know. I think 'bioactive' refers to the method of keeping a viv that is allegedly 'self cleaning' or 'self maintaining' in the sense that substrate infauna/inflora consume the wastes of the display animals. 'Naturalistic' is more an aesthetic concept (the contrary of 'barren'), using materials that look and feel and smell natural. One can have a bioactive viv that isn't naturalistic, or have a naturalistic viv that isn't bioactive.


That's definitely (and obviously) true. I didn't go into it in detail, being these kind of concepts are old news on a dart frog forum. For PDF keepers, that's like Vivarium Keeping 101 topics or something.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

JPP said:


> What can't be accomplished in an enclosed system? A completely self sustaining system or something? If that's what you mean, I don't think anyone expects that to be a realistic possibility.
> Like I said in my previous post, this type of discussion doesn't make much difference to dart keepers. They generally already have both 'naturalistic' and 'bioactive' enclosures already (which pdf vivs pretty much are). Other hobbyists that keep reptiles and other creatures though aren't always using vivarium-style enclosure/husbandry concepts.


I didn't mean that to be combative. I was typing between meetings. 

That what I was saying. Totally useless in regards to talking about darts. Not you but theres a lot of people that seem to be cultish with the bioactive train. It's so overused and misused for that matter. That substrate the op mentioned is like buying hydei specific media.

More power to everyone. Do your thing. Just my .02 on the subject. 

There's a thread around here somewhere with Ed along with some others talking about it.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

JPP said:


> That's definitely (and obviously) true. I didn't go into it in detail, being these kind of concepts are old news on a dart frog forum. For PDF keepers, that's like Vivarium Keeping 101 topics or something.


Honestly I thought everyone was doing the same concept unless you had something that just totally overloads the system. All I've had are fish and darts.

So what do most people do with cresties, etc?


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

I think Philippe de Vosjoli chose the term "bioactive" to distinguish the idea from "naturalistic" setups which were gaining popularity. A screen topped aquarium housing a snake with a substrate of cypress mulch and some pieces of drift wood hiding pots that pothos was planted in was considered a "naturalistic" set up when he coined the term. Before that I remember people using astroturf for most reptiles and frogs usually had a layer of damp sheet moss or pieces of pillow moss. All bugs were considered pests and whole enclosures had to be cleaned out often due to animal waste products. Hardly "naturalistic" in my mind. If I remember correctly he was working with finicky snakes using a soil based substrate and noticed that their enclosures smelled earthy when he went to remove snake waste rather than stinky. He realized that the soil was colonized by microorganisms and small invertebrates which were processing waste and further tested his idea by replicating the set up for arboreal lizards. He found that all he had to do was spot remove surface waste and stir the substrate with a little hand rake rather than completely empty the tank.

Honestly their product just looks like a variation of the ABG mix but with finer sieved (smaller) sized components. They probably added a mycorrhizae powder to the mix and called it Bioactive. Looks better for starting plant cuttings which would need a wetter mix than ABG in a lower (than vivarium level) humidity grow room like they have in their warehouse. That would support the mycorrhizae powder idea. Use the finer left overs from mixing and bagging ABG mix for propagating plants. Add some mycorrhizae to help those plants establish then decide to offer it for sale using a word that hobbyists would relate to.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

S2G said:


> So what do most people do with cresties, etc?


Well, cresties (and other arboreal geckos) are typically kept at least semi naturalistic: at least with real wood branches; some folks use real plants, "bioactive" substrate, etc. Some, though, use plastic plants and carpet/newspaper substrate for various reasons (one good one being that it is really hard to get cresties to lay eggs where you can find them for managed incubation if you use a natural substrate, since the geckos lay their eggs in it.)

Most of use keep large collections of terrestrial geckos and snakes in plastic tubs with plastic hide boxes on newspaper. People with large fish collections do the same, too -- bare tanks with pieces of PVC pipe and that's it.



JPP said:


> That's definitely (and obviously) true. I didn't go into it in detail, being these kind of concepts are old news on a dart frog forum. For PDF keepers, that's like Vivarium Keeping 101 topics or something.


This makes me think of another issue regarding the question of what is naturalistic/bioactive: it is relative to the state of the hobby. Dart frog keepers don't even use the term, since it is the predominant practice. But for, say, ball python keepers, the idea of an enclosure that is some sort of Biosphere 2 is as cool as the idea of time travel, and as likely to bring the crazies out of the woodwork.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

S2G said:


> I didn't mean that to be combative. I was typing between meetings.
> 
> That what I was saying. Totally useless in regards to talking about darts. Not you but theres a lot of people that seem to be cultish with the bioactive train. It's so overused and misused for that matter. That substrate the op mentioned is like buying hydei specific media.
> 
> ...


Nah, you're good. I wasn't taking it to be combative.
We have a variety of things we keep in addition to dart frogs: geckos, snakes, tarantulas, scorpions. It's funny how different communities centered around different animals have their own sets of "care preferences/rules" that almost become dogma. The dart frog community is among the more forward-thinking (in my opinion of course).


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Well, cresties (and other arboreal geckos) are typically kept at least semi naturalistic: at least with real wood branches; some folks use real plants, "bioactive" substrate, etc. Some, though, use plastic plants and carpet/newspaper substrate for various reasons (one good one being that it is really hard to get cresties to lay eggs where you can find them for managed incubation if you use a natural substrate, since the geckos lay their eggs in it.)


That's about what we do. Basically simpler, drier vivs than darts with sturdy plants like pothos and syngonium.


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## Cakers (Sep 10, 2017)

Well being new to this hobby I like to try many products to evaluate for myself however want to use it the correct way. I grew up in a family owned pet store and we sold a lot of stuff that was not necessary but profitable. I'm trying to sort this out with my reptiles. In fact I was thinking of using this bioactive soil in my crested gecko or fire skink viv's. Appreciate the comments.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Cakers said:


> Well being new to this hobby I like to try many products to evaluate for myself however want to use it the correct way. I grew up in a family owned pet store and we sold a lot of stuff that was not necessary but profitable. I'm trying to sort this out with my reptiles. In fact I was thinking of using this bioactive soil in my crested gecko or fire skink viv's. Appreciate the comments.


You can buy great white myco solution and spray it all over for a root enhancer which would help your epiphytes and give you a lot more to work with. If you want to fertilize grab some Alaska fish emulsion mix 1/4 strength then spot spray.


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## kmitrain50 (Nov 9, 2021)

S2G said:


> ABG is another loosely thrown around group of words. Unless it has the original abg ingredients then it's just a substrate mix and not abg(JF does this). Saying its abg just helps it sell better than saying S2G's custom substrate mix.


I couldn't agree with you more!!! When I started keeping pdf's back in 2012 I bought some ABG substrate mix that (at least stated) it was FROM Atlanta Botanical Gardens and it was FAR superior to what I find now! 😢 I believe the main reasons being the lack of tree fern(creates air pockets, preventing compaction!) AND fricken "MILLED" vs long strand sphagnum moss!! (My thought shoots directly to "COMPACTION HELPER!" 😠, since bits of sphagnum moss, IMO, cannot possibly create pockets. (If someone can truly state otherwise, please explain.) I see JF has two substrate mixes. One with/and one w/out tree fern but both hv milled SM, hence, IMO, shortening the lifespan of their substrate!!! JF, I'd love to hear what you have to say on this topic! Stay well & stay safe all❣


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## ctharnettnz (Dec 25, 2021)

I see a lot of people on YouTube using the foam aquarium mesh as a drainage and substrate layer. What's everyones opinion on this? I'm curious as to how it benefits plants and microfauna?


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

This will be a bit chicken or egg story.
I can buy a pack of baked pancakes in the supermarket, but can also buy all ingredients separately and mix it yourself


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

ctharnettnz said:


> I see a lot of people on YouTube using the foam aquarium mesh as a drainage and substrate layer. What's everyones opinion on this? I'm curious as to how it benefits plants and microfauna?


 Yes, works well for drainage. Some foams (which ones? I lost track of exactly which went in which viv) seem to wick a bit, in my somewhat limited experience. 

I think the benefit is for the builder -- stuff is cheap and easy to work with, and looks pretty good from the outside.


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## ctharnettnz (Dec 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, works well for drainage. Some foams (which ones? I lost track of exactly which went in which viv) seem to wick a bit, in my somewhat limited experience.
> 
> I think the benefit is for the builder -- stuff is cheap and easy to work with, and looks pretty good from the outside.


How does the clean up crew and plants do with it? It doesn't provide any nutrients or anything from my understanding. Wouldn't you get a better culture of isopods with natural substrate?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

ctharnettnz said:


> How does the clean up crew and plants do with it? It doesn't provide any nutrients or anything from my understanding. Wouldn't you get a better culture of isopods with natural substrate?


I was talking about using foam as a drainage layer under (natural) substrate. I don't know of any keeper that uses only foam as substrate, and would very strongly recommend against doing so (I assume this isn't what you meant, though). Minimally, a leaf litter substrate is necessary, which isopods and springs are said to do well on.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I was talking about using foam as a drainage layer under (natural) substrate. I don't know of any keeper that uses only foam as substrate, and would very strongly recommend against doing so (I assume this isn't what you meant, though). Minimally, a leaf litter substrate is necessary, which isopods and springs are said to do well on.


My recent builds are filter foam with a layer of pea gravel on top and then a ton of leaf litter on top. 

Isopods and springtails are thriving in my builds, well, wherever they aren't being predated upon by the frogs at least


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## ctharnettnz (Dec 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I was talking about using foam as a drainage layer under (natural) substrate. I don't know of any keeper that uses only foam as substrate, and would very strongly recommend against doing so (I assume this isn't what you meant, though). Minimally, a leaf litter substrate is necessary, which isopods and springs are said to do well on.


I've seen the foam covered in moss and then leaf litter on top. Would that still work? I would think you would need some sort or soil or something.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

ctharnettnz said:


> I've seen the foam covered in moss and then leaf litter on top. Would that still work? I would think you would need some sort or soil or something.


If you match a thick leaf layer there and not just a few leaves, I see no problem there. The chance of course exists that the leaves stifle the moss.


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## LilacFrogs (Dec 29, 2021)

Cakers said:


> Is there anything to specifically made bioactive substrates that make it better than ABG or clay? I see it sold and words like bioactive but are they really better? They sell for a lot more than regular substrate types.


I use josh’s frogs abg mix which works well, what you can do to make it work better, is add microfauna and let sit for a few days with some leaf litter in it, so the beneficial bacteria can generate and grow, making it a mini ecosystem. plants thrive in this environment.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

ctharnettnz said:


> I've seen the foam covered in moss and then leaf litter on top. Would that still work? I would think you would need some sort or soil or something.


The spag moss will hold excessive amounts of water and rot the leaves quickly. LL over foam is a fine setup for some applications (not so much for growing plants on the bottom of the viv, but restricting plants to the hardscape is a great design plan for many/most dart species anyway).


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## ctharnettnz (Dec 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> The spag moss will hold excessive amounts of water and rot the leaves quickly. LL over foam is a fine setup for some applications (not so much for growing plants on the bottom of the viv, but restricting plants to the hardscape is a great design plan for many/most dart species anyway).


Not spag moss but living moss. I've seen Troys topical garage on YouTube use this method. I also notice in some builds he has very little leaf litter and more living moss.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

ctharnettnz said:


> Not spag moss but living moss. I've seen Troys topical garage on YouTube use this method. I also notice in some builds he has very little leaf litter and more living moss.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. YouTube builds are often not emblematic of beneficial captive husbandry. They are "aesthetic" builds for the purpose of getting clicks on the Videos.


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## ctharnettnz (Dec 25, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again. YouTube builds are often not emblematic of beneficial captive husbandry. They are "aesthetic" builds for the purpose of getting clicks on the Videos.


Ya I totally understand, that's kind of why I was asking because it seemed kind of conflicting based on other sources.


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