# Importing from Colombia



## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Do you ever think they will import frogs legally from Colombia in the next 10 years?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

the way things look now, i really doubt that.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm still hoping someone will get ahold of some lehmanni and bring them out.....


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

JoshH said:


> I'm still hoping someone will get ahold of some lehmanni and bring them out.....



be careful what you say or do.....


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Julio said:


> JoshH said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still hoping someone will get ahold of some lehmanni and bring them out.....
> ...


I mean legally of course. There's has to be a few people out there that have them from when they were imported, most likely in Europe. And I believe that having groups of species in the hands of experienced hobbyiest and not just in their small wild populations in beneficial. I'm not saying they should become available to everyone, just that a few groups need to get into the right hands for protection. If certain Atelopus were being bred in captivity right now then they might not be going extinct.....


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

The Colombians who have been working on amphibian conservation in their home country, are also involved in captive breeding, and know the lehmanni situation best, have been unanimous in their opinion that they should not be exported for the pet trade. I would support their opinion. There is nothing to be gained for conservation by removing animals from critically imperiled populations to put them into private hands.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

But there is already cb greenhouses of lehmanni down there. I here this from a good source. They have the papers to farm them locally bbut can`t get the permits federally to export? or something like that. Of course it`s not good to take animals from a crically endangered species but we have to step in at some point, isn`t that what twi/asn is about, intervention by hobbyists and zoos to save amphiban populations? These are the worlds creatures and having all our eggs in one basket, so to speak, is never a good idea. Plus I really want to work w/ them and I know i can increase their #`s. I brought escudos pop from 6 individuals to 30+(24 offspring) in under a year and cayo de aguas from 4 to 23 in under 6 months. I don`t mean to toot my own horn but in the right hands these greenhouse lehmanni could produce a good captive stock if not exported in #`s and hi priced to make it worthwhile for columbia and into the right breeding programs. It`s just all happening too slow for my hopes. There are good things in the works though. People are pushing cb programs and hopefully someday before their gone we`ll get another chance.


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

I definitely agree with you aaron. There needs to be some program to get lehmanni in the right hands. I'm not encouraging flooding the market with imports - that would be a disaster! Having these frogs with the right people could eventually lead to an amazing frog being established in the hobby.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Eh, I guess I'd disagree. At some point, yes, I'd like to see Lehmanni in this country in the right peoples' hands, but right now? Not a chance. There needs to be captive breeding programs there to up the populations first before spare frogs can and should be sent here. Shipping animals is very stressful on them, and for a critically endangered frog that could easily die due to the stress of shipping, it wouldn't be worth it. And then once here, there are no guarantees that they'll be as easy to breed in captivity as some pumilio are. I mean, look at Blue Jeans. People have all sorts of difficulty breeding them, whereas other pumilio morphs are much easier.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If they are already endangered in the wild why put more individuals into an already unstable population? cb could outcompete in the shortrun and offset the already unstable, by, I`d imagine habitat degradation, population and crash it. If there are already cb offspring in greenhouse production they should go to an area not so threatened by coca production and gov`t instability to offset the hi demand which probably moreso threatenss the species. I know ed has said that smuggling of auratus still occurs but hi prices will have peoplle searching them out. If they are hard to find and the price is $200ea or less maybe it will take off some of the hardcore smugglers from risking going there.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

What about the other Colombian frogs like orange Aurotaenia, blue Truncatus, and Colombian Auratus? They stand a better chance at getting established in the hobby than something like Lehmanni. I hate to say it, but maybe Lehmanni just belongs in the wild or breeding program in their home country than in a vivarium.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

The issue is that the population has to be able to handle the import. As a bare minimum, say 100 animals get imported. Those 100 animals are effectively dead to the greenhouse projects. When the population is as low as Lehmanni are, 100 animals makes a huge difference. I wouldn't personally be comfortable with importing until the captive populations had several thousand individuals at their disposal. There's a lot of politics involved with Colombia right now, but that's looking at it from an American perspective. There are many dedicated herpetologists in Colombia that can and are doing a very good job of conserving species.

I think it'd be arrogant of us as breeders to assume we'd do a better job at sustaining a population compared to Colombians. They can reference habitat and such better than we can and can probably better match it than we can. Not to mention they're in a more suitable habitat to do something large scale compared to the great majority of us who can't.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I do agree with the comments on shipping stress and general collecting issues. The current populations of these species cannot easily handle your typical collecting regime into the country. It would take a seasoned expert or institution to carefully collect and bring a few pairs into the country and straight into pre-established, fully integrated habitats. The individuals working with them would need to provide large, heavily planted systems that had little or no outside interfearence. 

I am a firm believer that most animals will live and breed if the right habitat is designed and they are left alone. But I guess keeping shipping stresses to a minimum is a huge task in itself, I would say that that is definately the biggest challange involved with the success of those species. And they definately should not be released into the general public.....


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

I for one would just like some more terribs or histos


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> But there is already cb greenhouses of lehmanni down there. I here this from a good source. They have the papers to farm them locally bbut can`t get the permits federally to export? or something like that. quote]


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Hi Aaron, I agree with what you are saying to a point. I'd say that IF the Colombians felt that establishing captive populations out of country would serve a conservation purpose, then I would be all for export done under THEIR guidance. I agree with the mantra of "in the right hands". A typical exportation to the pet trade is a horrible way to put animals "in the right hands". We are lucky that the Colombians have incredibly smart and dedicated people down there. If they are having success with greenhouse breeding, I think that is fantastic. If the success is only to be used to support a commercial export, I think that is ashame. If there were to be an out of country conservation breeding program for lehmanni, then it should be done through zoos and orgs like TWI/ASN. That's really the only way to insure that the animals wind up in the right hands and that proper records kept and management applied. I would also love the opportunity to work with lehmanni. Who wouldn't? But I would prefer it be done only in conjunction with a professionally managed program. I don't question that "the right hands" exist in the US. But the process is as important as the people in this situation. And I would defer to the Colombians as the experts to provide the necessary guidance.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'm jumping in with Brent here... I love lehmanni and count myself lucky to have worked with any, but they should stay where they are. I'm sorry, but any outside of Colombia, no matter how you paint it, it greed on the part of the reciever. They are doing more good breeding down in Colombia where they can be reintroduced if possible, then being exported into oblivion... I've seen the ex situ breeding for reintroduction to the wild steps taken for A. zeteki, and realize that if that was possible it would likely have to be an institution, then we'd just bitch out looking and not touching just like the zeteki.

I'm like Brent, I'd love to work with them. I'd invest a lot of money into giving them what they need and not bother with thoughts on them returning it. But I would only do it in a program like TWI/ASN, only legal animals. But honestly... I have to wonder what good would come of that... they are an animal that I really wonder about the viability of having them in captivity... we'd not be able to produce them enough to take the smuggling pressure off them in the hobby. So... why are we bothering taking them away from a breeding program that can do more good? I can't uphold the standards for reintroduction animals, so what good would me having the animals - even if they produced - honestly do for them?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ya, your right, because columbia has done such a great job in protecting them up till now.
Pure greed to want to save a species? What am I in TWI for if the members don`t even have the confidence for us to save Lehmanni?


KeroKero said:


> we'd not be able to produce them enough to take the smuggling pressure off them in the hobby. So... why are we bothering taking them away from a breeding program that can do more good?


Whatchu mean we kimosabbee?
And that doesn`t follow if we can`t produce enough to reduce smuggling pressure so release them into the wild to be caught and smuggled the wrong way?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Not pure greed to want to save a species, but if you want them in your living room to look at rather than seeing them in the wild, that's a bit greedy. It would be great to be able to have both... but the very low reproductivity of the species has me worried about the time it would take to level the demand for them in the hobby (if it's possible, and being so hard just to keep alive, not just breed makes me wonder if that's possible). Are they that much better off for having a CB population here that still won't be able to meet the demand and stop the smuggling? I'm not saying they should all stay in Colombia so they can be smuggled, but that having a CB population probably wouldn't help their plight much. Sure, there are TWI/ASN people who are capable of breeding them, some already have... but how long will it take to meet demand? With how touchy they are, can you ever reach demand? 

Oops, I killed it, can you send me another... oh, you won't because I'm not qualified? Fine, I'll get a smuggled one...

IMO - not the opinion of TWI/ASN but my own - I'm not convinced that with species that are flat out hard to keep alive that an ex situ population to reduce the demand for the species in the hobby is actually a good answer or even possible (population goes up from breeding, but outside the ASN circle what happens to them?). I hold the same opinion for the Goliath frog (the true ones). They have this mythical glow to them, both species, that people want them... will pay crazy prices for them... but they just don't do well in captivity. Sometimes you just have to take a step back and realize you can't save everything, even if its something you want the most.

I would love to work with lehmanni again... but I've been in the hobby long enough to understand demand, and I just don't think there is any way to do it... we can't even do it with pumilio without getting imports, and they are the _easy_ eggfeeder...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Hard to keep alive? MAYBE in the hands their in now and MAYBE they are producing purely subpar froglets that will never make it to breeding size no matter whos hands their in. The guy who introduced me to the hobby had a female lehmanni alive in a 6 inch by 8 inch penpal on mud for 2 years or more in his basement fed solely ff`s and termites about 2 years in when he met me. I got her for another year and looked and looked for a male and eventually sold her. That says to me they are no harder than the blue jeans or the panamanian pumilio to keep alive. Hard if their not imported right and maybe hard for some to breed. I`ve had success w/ granuliferous in other very good breeders hands for over 10 years and another year in mine till they acclimated. the male was seizing when i first got them and then bloated after calc glut treatments and i nursed them back and have multiple tads being fed and my first froglet that may be spndly. They stopped feeding it and transported another 11-15 tads.
I think that tomorrows gurus are out there and I think they`ll make us look like avg hobbyists in years to come if given the chance. I`ve bred the heck out of these new pumilio and taken them to f3 gens that bred in under 4months of age. You tell me an egg feeder big as that in the right hands and 3 pair couldn`t turn into 100`s in under 2 years your crazy. My cda`s are on the rate of 60+ a year(2 pair) and under 6 months to production age and I`m in no way pushing them. Lehmanni should be able to rear 6-10 under optimal conditions every 3 months at best about 40/pr/yr. 120 is a possible 60 pairs after first years production Just adding 10 pairs to up the program to 13 pair and 7/yr offspring would get you over 100 offspring in the second year production.
The guy who bred them outside in Ga had 7.10, i think and said he produced 60+ /year in an outdoor enclosure during the 8 months breeding or 6 months, however long he kept them out. That was group breeding and not focusing on production.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

And why are pumilio from panama the "easy" eggfeeder. The # of people able to work w/ panamanian pumilio shows the success. I`m sure that if costa rican pumilio, speciosus and whatever else was coming in in the #`s that panama pumilio are we`d see similar success w/ those species too.
Besides if I was selling them for $100ea and had a waitlist a mile long they wouldn`t risk that for a $100 frog retail. look what a NEW mt pumilio morph is selling for? something we didn`t even know about till way after lehmanni, brand new, $185ea. This isn`t a hopping along the path auratus, I think they really have to work for smuggling this one. And look what it`s done for azureventris, frog that came in at $185 and now adults are $25ea. Mark isn`t even importing them LEGALLY anymore because the market has been saturated. I know, a stretch but still.
edit I meant legally as in he`s not smuggling them in he doesn`t need to legally import anymore.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Let me clarify I`m not suggesting bringing them in by the thousands I`m saying acclimating and getting them to the people who are having success w/ panama pumilio. The panama pumilio availability and price and quality available from some importers has given many a chance to work w/ pumilio which would`ve never made the investment for 1/2 grown pumilio at $375-400ea. and they have proved successful. I`m sure it would be similar w/ other egg feeders given the right conditions and diet.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I really don't think lehmanni or histos are that hard. Atelopus yes, but I've known a few people that have had the more delicate egg feeders and did well in keeping them. And we've come a long way in keeping darts. Just a decade ago it was considered hard to keep any thumbnails or pumilio. The quality and realism of terrarium habitats has greatly improved, more food options are available, etc.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> look what a NEW mt pumilio morph is selling for? something we didn`t even know about till way after lehmanni, brand new, $185ea.


That's because, IMO, they come with NO site data, just a made up name. I, personally, won't touch them because of that.

You're really comparing apples to oranges when your comparing success of pumilio to success of lehmanni. If you look at the populations of each, you'll see some big differences. Population density to begin with. Pumilio are arguably the most abundant vertebrate species throughout their range. Lehmanni's population is incredibly reduced. If they WERE as easy as pumilio then this conversation would be moot because the population in Colombia would be exploding from the ease of breeding. But that's not the case. There is SOMETHING different.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ugghhhh. they don`t have site data because they are protecting the population till well established or they close the country. They have site data it`s just that WE dont have site data.
not a problem more for me. :lol:

Whatever is different COULD be a degrading habitat and have nothing to do w/ ease of breeding and production givin optimal conditions in captivity.
I`ve heard from europe and very experienced breeders here and other countries that they aren`t that hard and could produce larger #`s than their pumilio counterparts.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

If they're the population that everyone keeps talking about, they're the Las Delicias morph just on the Panamanian border of Bri Bri, in which case, the locality is already known. I think a made-up name will be more damaging than helpful in the long run, personally. But that's a different discussion.

I'm talking about sheer capacity to produce healthy offspring and a lot of them. You can see pumilio poses this quality in their habitat. Lehmanni can't. Even in the greenhouse projects you talk about, and I'd bet we can't get any better conditions for them, and they're not filling the greenhouses. I think it'd be very arrogant of us to think that we could offer better artificial habitat than the Colombians could. If they had the capacity to produce as much as pumilio, we'd see it, and this whole conversation would be moot.


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

While in Europe I had contact with a guy that bred lehmanni and said that they only required slightly more attention than breeding histros. We bred hostros and histros only for years... yes some pairs proved to be bad parents and difficult breeders, but we were still able to average 8-12 froglets per pair... not great, but not bad either. Some pairs had up to 20 a year, but that was rare.

Experienced hands are the only people I would ever consider giving a lehmanni to... or even a histro for that matter.

In my opinion if lehmanni are to ever be legally imported they should have a established organization ready and prepared with large tanks (greenhouses included) to house them. We bred histros in tanks no smaller than 3' cubes. The import should be a one time deal only. If the organization cannot maintain the population and breed them then they had their chance. I know this is a big risk, but the wild habitat that they rely on for survival is either being destroyed, changed, or soon to be infected with chytrid fungus. This can potentially wipe out the entire population of lehmanni and all other fogs in the area no matter how healthy the population would be due to captive breeding programs.

It will not matter if the natural areas are flooded with lehmanni when chytrid takes hold in the area. At that point lehmanni that were released will either die or be recaptured, treated for infection, and kept in captivity as it would get reinfected in the wild.

It is a hard choice. If we take them they may die due to shipping or improper care and would probably produce less offspring than in the breeding programs in Colombia. On the other hand, if we breed them there and release them into the wild most of the animals will die if chytrid fungus takes hold there.

If it wasn't for the fungus threat I would say leave them for now, but this is proving to be a real and concrete threat to amphibian wildlife in South America as the infections move further into poison dart frog territory.

And in terms of having frogs out on display, I would only have the frogs that don't mind being viewed, Azureus, Terribilis, etc. All my 'skittish' frogs are hidden away and only see people during maintenance and feeding with tanks so well planted they usually do not even care as they feel safe.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

It seems to me that discussions like these, although good to see taking place and are profitable in some ways, are somewhat deceptive and, to be honest, have really been irritating me lately. Onagro recently posted THIS in the Science and Conservation Forum.

I'm surprised that so many are chomping at the bit for countries to open up exports on such rare species, especially when people working with them in their own countries (and have access to their natural habitat and resources) are having a tough time with them. And just what is it that makes us think we have 'succeeded' with other species like pumilio or, as linked above, even auratus? Why are we so eager to get more species from other countries when we are still working to successfully establish and sustain species we already have? 

As Ed has brought up before (and I know I've repeated before), here is a general checklist to gauge whether or not a species has truly become established:



> 1) keeping the animal alive for increasing lengths of time
> 2) breeding the animal
> 3) reproducing the animal in sufficient numbers to reduce or eliminate take from the wild
> 4) routinely keeping the animal alive until longevity is the same or greater than average longevity in the wild.
> 5) meeting all of the above criteria and keeping all of the natural behaviors without any abnormal or sterotypical behaviors.


Despite our hubris, I would venture to say we're not far down the list on many (if any) of the PDF species currently in the hobby. While I am interested in conversations about species like lehmenni, I must say I'm a bit disheartened that there aren't the same ones taking place over frogs like tincs, auratus, galactonotus, etc...frogs that we actually have access to and in our possession, but aren't necessarily any more successful with them than we would be a handful of freshly imported lehmanni or sylvaticus.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Have not check back with this thread since I posted it. I didn't know it got this big. I personally was merely asking if Colombia would start exporting or if anyone knew of any projects like that of where SNDF has been getting their legal imports. But The poster directly above me makes a very honest and very smart post. And I agree with him 100%. This post was just to satisfy my curiosity about colombian frogs, as state in the original question it was posed "10 years from now". Or even ever. But it has been interesting to read peoples thoughts and reactions.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yeah, it's amazing how a small little question can turn into a big one!

I have to agree with Ron and 41714049... Ron for the lack of maintaining what we have already (a primary goal of ASN!!) because it is seriously lacking... yet the hobby is always begging for that frog they've heard of or seen pics of that isn't in the hobby. I've written an article about the popularity trends... it's hard to see some of these frogs disapear or seriously bottleneck due to the trends and something that was common and EASY.

As for 41714049... I totally agree that if these guys came in they are best into only experienced hands that will establish a healthy breeding population rather than the limited one we have right now - hopefully a project that can be successfully done by ASN if it happens. But as for reducing smuggling of WCs? Only works when you can really flood the market - meet demand - and a tightly controlled breeding program would be good if they were exported but I'm not sure how much it would stem the smuggling since every joe smith that wants one - even with enough money - wouldn't be able to buy them. It's like a catch-22


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

crb_22601, I also want to clarify that my post wasn't a personal attack on you or even your specific question...just a generally prevelant attitude within the hobby.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Oh No I did not take it as an attack at all. Quite the contrary, You spoke a lot of sense, how sometimes the U.S. Attitude of wanting what you can't have should be quelled and take into account the species that we do have in the hobby that need to be understood and maintained better.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Been there, done the tincs, auratus, thumbnails, phyllobates, a couple epis and pumilio and granuliferous. Now how many others are to that point in the hobby. 12 years is a long time.
You think that these animals will get established in the hobby? AS I breed tincs, auratus, whatever, people start building groups, breeding takes place and there are then tons of said morph in this area. then when I shut down mine other people are breeding my offspring and they take over the demand for said morph. If I keep breeding mine and I can`t wholesale or retail that morph in my area anymore then I would spiral downward and out of business and that does no good for me or my animals. Once a major breeder or importer gauges he can`t sell anymore of said morph in their area it`s up to you, the hobbyists to secure that morph. we can`t just keep collecting and breeding them forever. Not to mention a LOT of people have got good at breeding the more commons which makes it much harder for me to sell anything.
Having ADD I can`t just breed pets for the pettrade and it`s become too much to sign up all my offspring and enter all my pairs into databases. Do you think it`s easy in these times to keep a business running when there are darts everywhere for sale and I still have to pay for a website, facility, food, travel, etc. and the economy is doing what it is? I hope some other hobbyists are going to step up and start advertising on db! Spend more time getting people into the hobby for all the offspring being produced if you want to keep these morphs in the hobby. I don`t think home depot or walmart are going to step up and start sponsoring db.
It took an american going to panama to starighten out the mess down there and a canadian, an american and at first a german going to peru to get them on board down there. do you think columbia is going to be any different?
Personally I HAVE to work w/ frogs that produce less offspring now as more #`s of animals already in the hobby from me is not doing good anymore only bad. Only dropping prices so that someone w/ my or other breeders overhead can`t fit into the program anymore. I can`t wholesale auratus for $10ea anymore and make money or even stay in the hobby w/out burnout taking over. the idea w/ a pyramidal beginner to advanced hobby is that you have to move up the pyramid or perish. AS the bottom of the pyramid grows it`s easier for the higher up to reach the top and the bottom to advance. You CAN~T have the slew of imports from panama and peru and europe in w/out building the bottom line or it all crashes as it`s doing now. If I didn`t switch up my collection I would be out looking for apts right now instead of out looking for a job.
I can`t speak for others motivations but I`ve advanced to that level, others got those animals early on in the hobby and haven`t done much w/ it. I took my time, I think I`m ready for histos and lehmanni.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Just one example, I have been breeding DWarf French Guina Tincs for 10 years. What would make me think one more year of breeding them will establish them in the hobby. I`ve already produced over 2000 in 10 years. On the other hand I stopped breeding narrow band Aurotaenia about 5-6 years ago and I finally see a couple available. If i don`t stop breeding them no one else will for the long term because seeing them for sale makes people think their established in the hobby and they breed them and make a couple bucks and get out because it`s too much work to find homes for the offspring. At the true fecundity rate for these animals we need a constant influx of hobbyists to keep the hobby going, it`s called an exponential growth curve.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Been there, done the tincs, auratus, thumbnails, phyllobates, a couple epis and pumilio and granuliferous.


I guess I only hear bits and pieces about your progress with granuliferus, so how many F1s have you raise to adulthood? How about F2s?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Dont think I don`t know that`s a jab, you know I haven`t raised any to adulthood yet. But anyway, neither, that`s going to take another couple years in the hobby which I plan on being here for. I have however rescued the male from siezures and then bloating after I got them. I then got them to producing eggs and carrying tads w/in another month or so but the tads wouldn`t eat, now I have a froglet coming out and about 11-15 more tads being raised. As these are a wc pair which no one else was able to get breeding for 10 years and I`ve only had them about a year I call that an accomplishment. if f2`s and 3`s to adulthood was possible in a year I`ll get it done in the next year or so. Since I`ve not raised any granny froglets but have raised lots of pumilio to f2 and f3 in under a year(meaning once they`ve bred I`ve raised those froglets to breeding in 4 months time and got froglets from them only 2 months later, by the time they were only 6-7 mos old they had offspring coming out of the broms) I imagine the grannies shall fall into a similar category but a little more time to maturity considering they're bigger. Considering where they are from and the cycling involved in breeding them I hear they are considered to be harder then histos to breed in europe.
the research you`ve done in the wild you can`t say that #`s in the wild has anything to do w/ captive breeding programs. pumilio being as dense as they are in nature only means they are dealing w/ the changes to a betterment for their conditions and there is enough food available for as much as they can breed. Unless you`ve measured all the env changes over the evolution of the animal in it`s habitat and whether the quality of the habitat is getting better or degrading in regards to optimal conditions for said species you can not say the environment is any better place for them than the appropriate vivarium w/ the correct amount of food and nutrients. unless you know the common env changes they key in on for breeding and how easy it is getting them to leave those behind or being able to replicate them in a vivarium you can`t say anything is better in the wild then a viv.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

It's not a jab, just a point. It is an accomplishment what you've managed to do with granuliferus, and I'm sure everyone would agree with that. The point is that you _haven't_ been successful with them in the sense of what Ed had lined out. When you've got them in the F2s or F3s, then yes, I'll gladly pat you on the back and say good job, but until then, you're making progress, but haven't succeeded yet.

As for populations in the wild, you can tell a lot about it looking at the wild population. If a population in the wild is exploding, like pumilio, are (or rabbits if you will) you can assume that they have the fecundity necessary to allow that. If you have a population that is just scraping by, like Lehmanni, then you can assume that they don't have the fecundity to allow for a booming population. I admit that things like habitat destruction play a roll too, but as you said they have greenhouse projects working with Lehmanni, so they're under "optimum" conditions, and yet, their population STILL isn't booming. That should be proof enough that they're not as fecund as pumilio and that success in one egg feeder does not necessarily equate to success in another egg feeder.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Also a theory I've had towards the pumilio breeding like rabbits vs. something like lehmanni and grannies... the last two species are highly specialized to take advantage of a given niche. Pumilio complex... not so specialized in their habitat or what they can use to breed (wouldn't be suprised if that was their limiting factor!!). The more specialized they are, the harder it can be to "get it right". A species like the Pamana pumilio is highly adaptable so they'd readily breed in captivity, while their less adaptable CR/Nic "pums" and grannie/lehmanni relatives are much more difficult to get right since the range of "right" is so much smaller...


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Aaron is completely right!! this hobby is getting over saturated with certain morphs and it seems that people just want to keep what they can't get.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Allright who says the greenhouses arent packed and the lo #`s of lehmani in the wild can be because of the temps getting to hi for them where they are and they can`t make it higher up. It could be invasive plant species it could be anything. You don`t know until you`ve brought them out of their environment to see if it`s their environments changes that are killing them that includes greenhouses. They could get too much or too little light, acid rain etc.etc.etc.
How many frogs have you even bred in captivity, you`re argueing strictly from a standpoint of wild observation. That is VERY far removed from captive breeding.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I don't doubt that there are a few people in the States who could be successful with lehmanni. Heck, I've seen a cb specimen with my own eyes. But what we need to understand is that there is much more to a successful conservation breeding program than just a handful of skilled breeders. If we have learned one thing in conservation biology, it is that captive breeding should only be used as a last resort to recover a species. Once a species is gone from the wild, the costs and challenges of restoration go up exponentially. Chytrid has changed things to a point where captive breeding has become our option of last resort for many species. But the progression of the chytrid wave is much more predictable than it was a few years ago so it will be up to the people working in Colombia who are monitoring the situation to make the call if,or when, the threat of chytrid warrants removing wild animals for captive propagation. The US hobby is not the authority who should make these decisions.

Perhaps some day TWI/ASN could play a more active role in these types of decisions. But let's be realistic here. ASN became operational less than 1 year ago. Currently there are only some 30ish stewards enrolled in the program. And even those have not accessioned all of their animals. The only way ASN will ever have a significant role in conservation of a species like lehmanni is if we are a large enough network with a demonstrated history of record keeping and management to prove we can do what we set out to do. I'm optimistic because ASN has made some amazing progress in its first year of life. But we have to be realistic about the fact that the success of ASN depends on the dedication of the hobby, and it will take time for that dedication to be recognized by the professionals.

Now we can claim that the "hobby" is having success with the new imports of pumilio and other species but I don't buy it. It is easy to make claims like that when there are no data to objectively assess those claims. My personal opinion is that there are a handful of hobbyists like Aaron and others who keep the rest of the hobby afloat. Lose those breeders, and many species and morphs will dissapear. If we really want to prove we are serious as a hobby to conserve these animals, we have got to commit to working cooperatively toward our common goal of having stable captive populations. And the first step in that committment is to contribute data so we can accurately monitor our successes and failures as a hobby. Those data can then guide us in being really smart about which species and morphs we concentrate our own individual efforts on to provide better management for the captive populations as a whole. If we do this, then ASN will likely become a serious partner in conservation breeding programs.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Well of course there are always exceptions to the rule.  

Sorry Aaron, by know means was I putting any doubt in your capabilities. I meant in general.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> Aaron is completely right!! this hobby is getting over saturated with certain morphs and it seems that people just want to keep what they can't get.



This is a problem. Aaron mentions that it is up to the hobbyists to maintain the animals in the trade as breeders and dealers move up the level of difficulty in aquiring and dispersing morphs and species into the pet trade... (this is not a jab at you Aaron, its just something we need to discuss some more.) The current problem with the hobby is that we are not really maintaining any species for the long term. Look at the number of FG dwarf tincts that he produced and sold. What happened to all of those frogs? If even a moderate percentage of the people who aquired those frogs bred them, then that frog should be fairly available. Why are we still importing auratus after 20 years? The husbandry on them has been worked out since before 1983 and has been readily available to the private sector (Breeding Terrarium Animals, TFH publications) [there is also a discussion in there for histrionicus and lehmanni]... I know one breeder who dispersed hundreds of E. tricolor/anthoyni into the pet trade only to discover after a few years that he was virtually unable to find any of them. Some of these frogs have lifespans that can exceed a decade.. there should be many more of these frogs available then are up for sale....... 

Lets consider some of the aspects here.. if the breeders and dealers are continually moving up to the more expensive/difficult species to maintain a cash flow and the hobbyists are buying these as they become available and given that there is some finite amount of space for the frogs then this is a pyramid scheme that will only continue to work if there is a continual influx of new hobbyists as old ones fall off and/or people do not maintain the species currently in the hobby. This does not mean that Aaron or any of the breeders are really doing anything wrong as this is in some respects a new situation in the pet hobby. Until this time, only a minority of the animals that have been available in the pet trade were in imminent danger of becoming never available again due to some event(s). More typically the country of origin would close down and the price would spike until the country opened again when people would get new stock. This trend is not going to continue forever as many factors are conspiring to eliminate the availability of many of these animals. Some are political, some are economical (and we are contributing to this when we choose a new morph or species over a different morph) and some are extinctions (in the hobby and or in the wild).... 
I hate to keep bringing these items up as I have concerns that continued beating of the drum will desensitize people to the potential long term issues. 

Lets look at the current scenery.... there are a lot of reports of pumilio successes from the imports. How many of them are not from the initial imports? In other words are we as a hobby in general keeping the levels of reproduction up or will we in another 5-8 years have Aaron discussing how many pumilio he has sent in the pet trade only to have them virtually disappear? 

Some comments...... 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Very well put Ed. It is my sincere hope that by organizing under ASN hobbyists will have opportunities to clearly identify species in need of management and select those species to champion. This would allow everyone the opportunity to find their niche of importance and contribution in the hobby and get recognition for it. And it would provide people like Aaron with the ability to look at the data and know that Escudos no longer depend on his stewardship for survival in the hobby so he could move on to greater challenges. My other hope is that we can build a system that reduces or eliminates the financial constraints so that people can be givent he opportunity to work on species based on their probability of success rather than their ability to pay premium prices.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

The pyramid thing is only if we dont have influxes of thousands or hundreds of imports and the # of morphs out there to manage doesn`t become so overwhelming that a dozen people are trying to maintain. there is no, but beginning to be division and specialization: bill, epis: me pumilio and terribilis, phiil tan and oz, thumbs, etc,etc. the influx of thousands of beginner frogs and thousands of advanced level frogs only crashes the system. How does nature do it? only 2 frogs from each pair make it to manage a species. we can`t manage 20 unrelated animals and 100`s of offspring and have them all produce any more than 2 frogs / lifetime that reproduce or the system crashes. With as prolific as they are you cant have more than 4-6 people in the country breeding any one morph of frog w/out it going out of demand. Breeding success isn`t as important as keeping them alive. I went over it w/ a 13 year old w/c bicolor that produced my pair as one of his last fertile clutches and my pair now being 11 years old. Thats 24 years in the hobby so far w/ an f1 pair still breeding. 
I wrote something to rich about the systems and structure to a plan but management of breeding would have to be strictly controlled and we can only outsource for a founder population and not limitless imports. At a certain point if the #`s of morphs grow exponentially the whole system crashes also. They compete w/ each other for sales and there are only so many darts that people buy each year. Everybody has to own some for the pyramid to have exponential growth but managed growth, or breeding is the only way.
Which is why I`m going job hunting tomorrow :lol:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Aaron,

I'm going to break this up a little as this is a pretty complex topic that is often overlooked. If I miss something or misunderstand it let me know (its not intentional but its been a very bad day). 



frogfarm said:


> The pyramid thing is only if we dont have influxes of thousands or hundreds of imports and the # of morphs out there to manage doesn`t become so overwhelming that a dozen people are trying to maintain. there is no, but beginning to be division and specialization: bill, epis: me pumilio and terribilis, phiil tan and oz, thumbs, etc,etc. the influx of thousands of beginner frogs and thousands of advanced level frogs only crashes the system.:


If even 1/3 of the people in the hobby dedicated themselves to maintaining one morph of a species long term then just on the basis of dendroboard (there are in excess of 3500 people here....) that would be at least 1000 people keeping one or more morphs long-term. (and by long term I am talking 10 years or more (basically one full generation for the frogs). 
Many of the low cost imports (aka beginner frogs) end up in the generalized pet trade and are doomed however with just 1/3 of the people on this board we could probably easily sustain virtually all of the morphs...(not just species but morphs)... and this would prevent the imports from crashing the system as there would be diversity in the collections. People would be able to get something new and none of the frogs should ever get to a low enough population that they are threatened but instead will be able to deal with the rise and falls of popularity. Its only when a significant segment of the hobby makes no attempt to plan for the long term do we see these booms and busts which are the result of a pyramid schemes. Its not intentional but that is what it is... 



frogfarm said:


> we can`t manage 20 unrelated animals and 100`s of offspring and have them all produce any more than 2 frogs / lifetime that reproduce or the system crashes. With as prolific as they are you cant have more than 4-6 people in the country breeding any one morph of frog w/out it going out of demand. :


I can tell one way that it can.... This is what happened at one time in Zoos.. the population is managed for genetic diversity and people can get breeding recommendations. This can mean that people with unrelated animals can have animals or lines that are more desirable... The way this is managed requires that people register thier animals so the lines can be tracked. As an example some Zoos used to charge one price for genetically desirable animals (this is pretty much out of style in the Zoos by the way but it wasn't uncommon 20 years ago) and give animals with undesirable genetic relatedness to other Zoos. I'm not advocating it, I am just using it as an example. 
One other way is for breeders to restrict the number of animals they produce.... 
The real issue is supply and demand economics and unfortunately the entire reptile hobby is taking a hit with the current economy however if one looks at the historic trends then in times of poor economies more people get into keeping pets as a form of entertainment (in part more are staying home... but this trend tends to take time to pick up). 
The problem isn't the number of people producing the frogs but the lack of people dedicated to keeping the frogs long term. If 1000 people were dedicated to keeping one morph, then given what appears to be the high mortality in the hobby the demand would stay at a consistant level if no further people were drawn to the hobby but a consistant increase in demand as more people came to the hobby.... 




frogfarm said:


> Breeding success isn`t as important as keeping them alive. I went over it w/ a 13 year old w/c bicolor that produced my pair as one of his last fertile clutches and my pair now being 11 years old. Thats 24 years in the hobby so far w/ an f1 pair still breeding.
> I wrote something to rich about the systems and structure to a plan but management of breeding would have to be strictly controlled and we can only outsource for a founder population and not limitless imports. At a certain point if the #`s of morphs grow exponentially the whole system crashes also. They compete w/ each other for sales and there are only so many darts that people buy each year. Everybody has to own some for the pyramid to have exponential growth but managed growth, or breeding is the only way.
> Which is why I`m going job hunting tomorrow :lol:


Until more people can keep them alive long term there is always going to be a demand for the frogs. The problem is that people are not realizing that while the large imports of pumilio are available, other interesting frogs are being lost to the hobby potentially forever. Part of this is due to peer pressure..how often is there a discussion on the board about the cool new pumilio morph or how cool it would be to get lehmanni or histrionicus.. or any other egg feeder. In just the last 15 years we went from a massive popularity in tincts, auratus, leucomelas, galactonotus, to thumbnails and now to pumilio and other egg feeders..... in the mean time potentially losing the frogs that came before now. 

Good luck on the job search. 

Ed


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Ed said:


> In just the last 15 years we went from a massive popularity in tincts, auratus, leucomelas, galactonotus, to thumbnails and now to pumilio and other egg feeders..... in the mean time potentially losing the frogs that came before now.
> 
> Good luck on the job search.
> 
> Ed



I have thought about this a lot and it had been discussed by many people and I am afraid that it is just the nature of the beast. I think that as far as these frogs are concerned as hobby items the ups and downs and trends are not going to go away. I think the only way to really work with those issues is have a whole different group of people who's hobby is maintaining captive populations of different species and morphs and stay steady with it and not follow the trends. But that would be very difficult because the two different mind sets would really need one another for it to work. As I said I really think that its something that is unavoidable it seems to be how this scene operates. I think our hopes and dreams for this hobby get bigger then the hearts and motivation of many of the people. There is only so much time, space, and $ to go around and there are a ton of frogs out there.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Your right Ed, 3,000 members! That is enough to save all the morphs of frogs if everyone keeps them alive long term. We would also have over $3000 in donations right now for conservation if everyone sent in a buck. That`s just an analogy of where this hobby is hopefully going. A few people have donated over 10-20k towards conservation last year alone and most of that was from 1 person, not me, who has a full time job. But if most other people have jobs, who are saving the frogs and donating, we still need full time froggers answering questions like these on DB.
It has to form into a community w/ people helping out throughout, somewhat like DB/TWI cross, a board and commmunity who pays attention to what`s up. Could you imagine if we had people acting as helpers for paperwork or who would get your animals cupped and fecals to mark and send in for parasite check or all the other things involved w/ breeding frogs(it`s too bad we`re spread all over the country). We`d actually BE like a zoo instead of trying to get already stretched breeders to accession their animals and learn how to collect fecals, test for chytrid etc.etc. My BIG problem is I hate paperwork, I hate cupping up animals to collect fecals, slappin on the gloves to swab for chytrid, doing taxes etc. so it makes it that much harder to do what`s right. It`s really much easier if you have a true partner in this. 
If you only have a few dozen dedicated hobbiests who have been in it 10 years or more and only 12 or less who have gone to Peru and other countries and maintain mad collections it won`t work. Burnout on an already boom/bust business, no one in their right mind would do it for a living. It is up to each hobbyist to keep the animals alive long term. And us too, keeping back the last animals produced to keep the generations alive as long as possible. In this sense any offspring produced early in life are somewhat worthless and they animals are only worth something (more than pets) when the anials are getting to 10+ years old. It`s harder w/ w/c but the same would be true if these grannies produce good offspring, it may have been 10 years w/out breeding that kept them alive this long. So if we had 5-10 pairs of grannies start producing that all came in 10 years ago(wc) we would just now be starting to manage our grannies w/ enough diversity and they had been here maintained 10 years w/out producing any offspring. This could work and maybe easier than I play it out to be.
Right now selling gentically superior animals for more money won`t work, believe me.
It`s a big conundrum which I have no solid answers for. It is however nice to debate it and get some of this junk out of my mind and in writing.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*GREASER* said:


> Ed said:
> 
> 
> > I have thought about this a lot and it had been discussed by many people and I am afraid that it is just the nature of the beast. I think that as far as these frogs are concerned as hobby items the ups and downs and trends are not going to go away. I think the only way to really work with those issues is have a whole different group of people who's hobby is maintaining captive populations of different species and morphs and stay steady with it and not follow the trends. But that would be very difficult because the two different mind sets would really need one another for it to work. As I said I really think that its something that is unavoidable it seems to be how this scene operates. I think our hopes and dreams for this hobby get bigger then the hearts and motivation of many of the people. There is only so much time, space, and $ to go around and there are a ton of frogs out there.


That is why I pointed out that if even 1/3 of the people on just Dendroboard *alone *participated in a long term attempt to maintain one morph each we could really go a long long way to getting this problem worked out but if the hobby in general got involved it would probably be more than enough people to sustain it. 

They don't have to be two different mind sets. *IF *people would dedicate one or two cages to one species/morph long-term (for sake of argument say a 20 gallon tank or an 18 gallon exo-terra), then they could follow the winds of popularity on any other species that they chose with a minimal involvement of thier own. 

Give the current situation as we know it problems with amphibians (both in and outside of captivity), its harder to pick a time for people to be told about the motivation but there is a definite downside to continually beating the drum on this issue as it can get people to ignore it more......

One of the things that these up and down trends also indicates as a possible problem is that we are not making strides towards keeping the frogs alive as long as they maybe able to live so we may still be failing in general towards giving the frogs the best possible conditions to thrive.....

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

First off, I just read that again and no 1000 might not be able to manage what we have, actually 3000 might not be able to. Wasn`t it 20 founder animals and over 100 offspring/morph to manage a morph? We`ve had about 60 new morphs come in over the last 2 years. At that rate we`d have to manage 120+ founder animals since we don`t know how long the wc will last. That`s about 7200 frogs to manage 60 morphs. At my height I don`t think I ever had more than 2000 frogs(juvis and such) and I could never care for them w/out sales(unless of course i got some fat gov`t grant because someone did a grantwriting for me :lol: ). This is the first time we`ve had this many new morphs in the hobby in such a short period w/ only imports thru about 3-5 importers? Before they only used to come in 200 frog shipments from europe, most from 1 wc breeding pair, each morph and anywhere from 10-20 morphs. When surinam was open we we`re paying $200+ for some morphs, there wasn`t the #`s and there was a bit of diversity. 
This is the first time the hobby has had to manage 10000`s imports, what was established in the hobby and limited #`s from Peru of a great diversity in morphs. It`s like trying to hold back the dam. There are limited #`s of epis coming in which are explosive breeders, tons of thumbs that can be tricky to breed, panama pumilio which most have to be sorted and some #`s of rare, labeled frogs, lots of adult auratus of one or 2 types very cheap and let`s see what else, and not to mention we`re under the gun here because frogs are disappearing at an alarming rate. Is there anything else anything we can throw on top of this big pile of...
I just keep thinking of that movie where joe pesci`s a lawyer and what`s her name is saying you said we`d get married when you won your first case and joe pesci goes into that line about her biological clock, his cousin`s life, ah, My Cousin Vinny. 
Anyway, the only saving I see is a government bailout! :lol: 
But really, I guess it may be possible, i never thought I could sell enough frogs when I first started to make a living and I got that wrong so hopefully TWI can manage something like that and the hobby progress` thru it. I just know it`s something that business can`t handle w/out a stable economy and some help.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Aaron,



frogfarm said:


> Your right Ed, 3,000 members! That is enough to save all the morphs of frogs if everyone keeps them alive long term..


That is a much more ambitious number than I was considering but think the potential number of people that could do something between the general hobby and the all of the different list serves and discussion boards... 



frogfarm said:


> We would also have over $3000 in donations right now for conservation if everyone sent in a buck. That`s just an analogy of where this hobby is hopefully going..


The better thing would be if everyone donated a dollar towards the NAAC fundraiser (what is it up to now? $300 or so?) and simply joined TWI. If everyone who reads this thread joined TWI and simply paid thier membership just to read the magazine, we would be way further along than we are right now. 



frogfarm said:


> A few people have donated over 10-20k towards conservation last year alone and most of that was from 1 person, not me, who has a full time job. But if most other people have jobs, who are saving the frogs and donating, we still need full time froggers answering questions like these on DB..


(A little jab here but not aimed at you... how about donating the price of a cup of coffee at Starbucks?? This should be doable for those who do not have a full time job and those that do....) 

One of the benefits of forums and list servers is that you really don't need full time froggers answering the information as long as people know where to find the inforamtion and you have some dedicated moderators who can put some time into the mess. Go back over the last several years and look at the replacement of pedialyte with calcium gluconate/glubionate as one example or the discussions over astaxanthin for reds. The long-time froggers or those with access to the information just need to be available to answer the questions or to clarify the information as needed. There are plenty of smart people who pick up on the idea and get it moving forward... 



frogfarm said:


> It has to form into a community w/ people helping out throughout, somewhat like DB/TWI cross, a board and commmunity who pays attention to what`s up. Could you imagine if we had people acting as helpers for paperwork or who would get your animals cupped and fecals to mark and send in for parasite check or all the other things involved w/ breeding frogs(it`s too bad we`re spread all over the country). We`d actually BE like a zoo instead of trying to get already stretched breeders to accession their animals and learn how to collect fecals, test for chytrid etc.etc. My BIG problem is I hate paperwork, I hate cupping up animals to collect fecals, slappin on the gloves to swab for chytrid, doing taxes etc. so it makes it that much harder to do what`s right. It`s really much easier if you have a true partner in this...


There is already a good community here.. All it really needs to get it put together is for people to start registering thier frogs. This is where the ball really gets rolling.. I know you hate the paperwork because I do as well (and I have to do it all day long and deal with the rules put in by a paranoid system). Do you have a local 4-H in your area? Have you considered making some frogs available to them if some of the kids want to use frogs as a project and help you out on cupping etc? This way you could get some dedicated help that would be inexpensive..... 




frogfarm said:


> If you only have a few dozen dedicated hobbiests who have been in it 10 years or more and only 12 or less who have gone to Peru and other countries and maintain mad collections it won`t work. Burnout on an already boom/bust business, no one in their right mind would do it for a living. It is up to each hobbyist to keep the animals alive long term. And us too, keeping back the last animals produced to keep the generations alive as long as possible. In this sense any offspring produced early in life are somewhat worthless and they animals are only worth something (more than pets) when the anials are getting to 10+ years old..


In general the animals have the same value.. but to the breeder the animals produced latere in life may have more value. To the hobby they should be the same. You are correct we can't depend on only 12 people or so to try and maintain the species that is why everyone in the hobby should try and maintain at least one morph/species long term.. Then all of the eggs are not all in one basket. 




frogfarm said:


> Right now selling gentically superior animals for more money won`t work, believe me. It`s a big conundrum which I have no solid answers for. It is however nice to debate it and get some of this junk out of my mind and in writing.


I wasn't expecting it to, nor was I advocating it, but I just wanted to point out that buisness model has operated and worked in a similar industry in the past. 

Ed

Isn't nice to not be arguing with me over things?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Yes, I`m very hardheaded Ed. Michelle says she has to present ideas to me in a way that I can come up w/ the actual Idea. A personal attribute, amongst others, I`m becoming aware of at an alarming rate.
Ya, I don`t mean disband either Db or Twi just thinking out loud about the #`s being here while more debate like this going on there. Yes Joining TWI is a good idea which is why I gave discounts off expensive frogs to become a member, I think the forum gives good advanced insite and possibilities to help grassroots movement as it`s just forming. It goes hadn in hand w/ owning your first Escudo. I really hope it gets the help it needs to do this.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

There are a few things to bear in mind here.

First, the 20 founders/120 offspring rule is a rule of thumb for capturing and retaining 97%+ of the genetic alleles of a wild population. That ship has already sailed for most species and morphs in captivity so the requirements need not be so stringent. If all we need to do is maintain a stable captive population to supply genetically "wild type" animals to the hobby, then we are probably looking at something more like 5-10 breeding pairs spread among 3-5 breeders as a minimum. That is much easier to do. I think for true genetic management, what will likely happen is that TWI will operate more like any other ISIS institution so that private holdings are managed in consort with public holdings. So things are not quite so grim as they may seem.

Second, what we really need are tools to help make these management decisions. Currently there is no way for a person to objectively identify those species or populations that should be getting additional attention before it becomes a crisis. All we have is hindsight where we look back and say, "gee, where did all the tricolor go?". These tools are not that hard to develop. Actually, the Species Evaluation Subcommittee of ASN is just getting started and this is part of their mission. All it really takes is some standardized surveys and data collection to track for trends. Then we could see that population X is in decline well before they become noticeably rare in the hobby. By publishing that information, any hobbyist could review the list and may very well choose to acquire declining animals rather than obtaining the latest imports. This type of information is what is really needed to objectively gauge the hobby's ability to acquire AND MAINTAIN additional morphs and populations.

Third, the time requirements have often been listed as an impediment to participating in ASN. However, a great deal can be accomplished in a short amount of time. A person could fill out and submit 3 accession forms in the time it took me to type this message. Believe it or not, the bulk of the ASN Handbook was written in less than 2 weeks. The secret was staying off of the discussion forums long enough to complete the task :wink: Almost everything produced by TWI so far has been done in relatively short bursts of activity.

Finally, about TWI and donations. TWI is very different from most conservation organizations in that all of the work is done by volunteers. Member contributions are currently the bulk of the funding for TWI and these contributions have been very generous. As Aaron eluded to, more than 1/2 of the total income of TWI has been contributed by a single beloved member of the DB community. I won't embarass him by mentioning his name but it rhymes with Bill :wink: But here is the reality of TWI funding. Right now we are doing pretty well as an all volunteer organization regarding funding. Of course there is never enough money to do everything you want to do, but we have nothing to complain about. But what we are really short on is volunteers to help with the actual work of conservation. So we are at a bit of a cross-roads. We can increase the level of member participation with current funding, or we can drastically increase funding to a point where we can support a small paid staff to increase our conservation impact. We are actually working on both but staffing TWI depends on funding sources other than membership and individual contributions (unless anyone knows a billionaire who would like to support an endowment). But the major thrust of TWI will remain loyal to the principle that lots of volunteers contributing a modest amount of their time adds up to a major contribution for amphibian conservation. The bottom line is that money helps. But TWI don't just pay someone else to do conservation, they actually collaborate to do it themselves.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

yikes! I had to glaze over most of the posts, hard on my eyes. :shock: 

Some random thoughts:

I don't necessarily agree that Lehmanni are "unprolific--" but the catch is that their needs will probably not be met by the average hobbyist.

If I ever "had" Lehmanni, they would get nothing less than a greenhouse-- and a greenhouse is a considerable investment.

You think frogs are difficult to breed. Look at animals like parrots. Ever wonder why they're not cheap? (of course, parrots usually don't require a greenhouse to breed in). I've noticed that animals that "take care of" their offspring may have problems with rearing their young. Also, the brooding instinct of many chickens breeds has been lost. For these reasons, I prefer to let my frogs transport their own offspring, and I question if I should really be trying to get a second female tricolor (since mine eats her own eggs) than trying to raise her offspring. 

The strange logic of the above paragraph reflects the statement made by somebody else that "some pairs just were bad breeders." Then, perhaps they aren't fit, or, as a German dude said on the board long ago, "the great histo expert said the key to success is to let histos CHOOSE their own partner."

So perhaps there is a mismatch of attraction? Ed can chime in here, but zoos take great care to make sure that animals they breed are a good match, but that usually applies to warm blooded vertabrates.

I don't understand why lehmanni can't go to institutions first, and let excess offspring be allowed into the pet trade at a later date. This is similar to the situation with Zeteki, but the US has an agreement with the Panamanian government.

Unless we're willing to put them institutions first, and make sure there is a sizable CB population in Columbia, I'm very much against captive populations of lehmanni in keeper's hands.

Look at mantellas right now. They aren't that difficult to breed. But why are we still receiving imports, and their populations are in worse jeapardy than lehmanni?

When I think of lehmanni, I think of M. cowani. This mantella species was significantly jeapardized BECAUSE OF THE PET TRADE. Why didn't people breed them? Because they were sold enmass to the wrong folks. Frankly, nobody cared.

So, if we can't even propagate mantellas in a large tubberware (it works!), how can we expect to maintain hobbyist populations of lehmanni in large, expensive greenhouses? Mantellas can produce up to a hundred tadpoles in one clutch, lehmanni pairs probably can produce more than 20 a year.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> You think frogs are difficult to breed. Look at animals like parrots. Ever wonder why they're not cheap? (of course, parrots usually don't require a greenhouse to breed in). I've noticed that animals that "take care of" their offspring may have problems with rearing their young. Also, the brooding instinct of many chickens breeds has been lost..


Its not that clear cut.. Many parrot species are not that difficult to breed if provided with the right conditions however due to the turn over for them to be sold and to facilitate bonding with humans, hand rearing was developed. In some higher vertebrates, at least some parental behaviors, mate recognition and behaviors are learned and by changing the imprinting and rearing situations we change these dynamics resulting in poorer parents. 

Many breeds of chickens were deliberately bred to lack these behaviors as a hen that does not go broody is a more productive egg layer. This is also why some breeds were bred to keep those broody behaviors so they could be used as brooders for eggs of other breeds of chickens. For a parallel in the finch world look at what society finches were bred to do..... 
These are very different than what is often seen with frogs. Now by pulling and rearing the eggs of the frogs we are putting an evolutionary pressure on the frogs to abandon rearing as those that do not put resources into rearing will be able to devote that energy to egg production. 




Rain_Frog said:


> The strange logic of the above paragraph reflects the statement made by somebody else that "some pairs just were bad breeders." Then, perhaps they aren't fit, or, as a German dude said on the board long ago, "the great histo expert said the key to success is to let histos CHOOSE their own partner."
> 
> So perhaps there is a mismatch of attraction? Ed can chime in here, but zoos take great care to make sure that animals they breed are a good match, but that usually applies to warm blooded vertabrates...


I don't think we can compare warm and cold blooded animals here. In any case with most species the choices are made on genetic relatedness. There are only a few species where mate choice may be an issue when the animal is only provided with one mate choice (cheetas for example). 



Rain_Frog said:


> I don't understand why lehmanni can't go to institutions first, and let excess offspring be allowed into the pet trade at a later date. This is similar to the situation with Zeteki, but the US has an agreement with the Panamanian government..


I am not sure why most insitutions are any better than hobbyists if the frogs in theory require that much space... Most institutions are spatially limited. In any case, the agreement between the AZA Zoos, and Panama prohibits thier release to any non-AZA institution so this is not a good parallel. 
.



Rain_Frog said:


> Look at mantellas right now. They aren't that difficult to breed. But why are we still receiving imports, and their populations are in worse jeapardy than lehmanni?..


For a better example, why are we still importing auratus... 


Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> am not sure why most insitutions are any better than hobbyists if the frogs in theory require that much space... Most institutions are spatially limited. In any case, the agreement between the AZA Zoos, and Panama prohibits thier release to any non-AZA institution so this is not a good parallel.


Yeah, but technically speaking, don't zoos have larger budgets and more experienced staff for veterinary care? True, zoos get only so much money and a large proportion comes from donations. However, when I found out that itraconazole costs $500 or more from my veterinarian (compared to how relatively "easy" it seems for a zoo to acquire it), I have learned that my veterinary care budget is not nearly as high as a zoos. Of course, there are people that may exceed the amount the zoo is willing to provide.

I see your point, but auratus (overall) are not critically endangered compared to Mantella cowani. Dendrobates lehmanni is critically endangered. We are still importing Mantella viridis and expectata which are also critically endangered.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Yeah, but technically speaking, don't zoos have larger budgets and more experienced staff for veterinary care? True, zoos get only so much money and a large proportion comes from donations. However, when I found out that itraconazole costs $500 or more from my veterinarian (compared to how relatively "easy" it seems for a zoo to acquire it), I have learned that my veterinary care budget is not nearly as high as a zoos. Of course, there are people that may exceed the amount the zoo is willing to provide..


While Zoos have a higher veterinary care (often having one or more on permanent staff (depending on the size of the Zoo) budget, it doesn't always translate to more experienced staff when it comes to amphibian medicine (but this isn't always necessary if they are willing to consult with other vets.. (just like the non-Zoo vets.. if you have a vet locally that is willing to work with you on treating your amphibians then that is way better than no treatment.) Nor does it mean that thier facilites are better set up to handle or deal with the animals. 




Rain_Frog said:


> I see your point, but auratus (overall) are not critically endangered compared to Mantella cowani. Dendrobates lehmanni is critically endangered. We are still importing Mantella viridis and expectata which are also critically endangered.


My problem with this distinction is that it makes the "higher threat" animals appear to have more value... that they should be less "throw away" while because auratus are not threatened we can continue to import and not maintain them in much the same way we have for the last 20 years and it doesn't matter as much.... 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> My problem with this distinction is that it makes the "higher threat" animals appear to have more value... that they should be less "throw away" while because auratus are not threatened we can continue to import and not maintain them in much the same way we have for the last 20 years and it doesn't matter as much....


I never meant that auratus are "throw away." 

Should either be imported? No.

Should we stop importing auratus? Yes.

Is one facing a higher rate of extinction? Yes.

Firebellied toads are still being imported and they are "least concern." And despite the ease in captive breeding, few people do it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> > My problem with this distinction is that it makes the "higher threat" animals appear to have more value... that they should be less "throw away" while because auratus are not threatened we can continue to import and not maintain them in much the same way we have for the last 20 years and it doesn't matter as much....
> 
> 
> I never meant that auratus are "throw away." .


Yet that is what that sentence conveys whether it is intended to or not... 




Rain_Frog said:


> Should we stop importing auratus? Yes..


Based on what criteria? Why not shut down all imports of every species for the pet trade? What would be the benefit of that in the long term? What is the potential long-term negative impacts? 



Rain_Frog said:


> Is one facing a higher rate of extinction? Yes...


Again this is attaching a higher value to one over the other.... What if auratus were going extinct in captivity while M. lavigata was stable or increasing. Would that change the "value"? 




Rain_Frog said:


> Firebellied toads are still being imported and they are "least concern." And despite the ease in captive breeding, few people do it.


Again this is attaching a value based on status in the wild whether you intend to or not... not a value based on how they are doing in captivity. 

What about Ceratophrys? These are still not commonly bred except through the use of hormones..... 

Ed


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