# Thumbnails dropping dead



## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

There are 7 captive bred vents in the tank (18x18x24), all are under a year. Humidity stays around 90% most of the time, and temperature is around 74F during the day and 66F at night. Fruit flies are plentiful (dusted with reptivite and zoo med repti calcium on alternating feeding days) , but I have noticed that some frogs might not be eating as much since the flies are disappearing slower than usual.

Anyways, I leave for vacation for a week, and come back. See everyone happy, but still too many flies uneaten. Temp and humidity stayed fairly constant over the trip. So now I leave for 5 days again, and come back to find 1 frog dead and still plenty of flies. Besides that, none of the others were acting strange.

Then today, one of the larger and healthier looking vents literally drops dead in front of me. He was just hopping around as normal, and as I was watching him, he laid down and just died. I was really stunned. Of the ones left I can see, none are acting odd and none look skinny or overweight either.

What the heck is going on?


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Any ventilation on the tank?


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## wcarterh (Dec 25, 2017)

Some colleges/universities have a necropsy program. If you have a reptile vet around there, Id' recommend bringing in with a stool sample.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Are your supplements purchased recently? And how long have you had the frogs? What is your set up?

Not really sure if it's environmental or supplement related but most of us use repashy calcium+ or dendrocare vitamins. Dart frogs need Vitamin A. I haven't heard of anyone using those supplements. The inability to catch prey is often due to Vitamin A deficiency, but lethargy and lack of tongue stickiness would be noticeable before death.

I'm not an expert so I can't tell you if the supplements you're using are satisfactory. Maybe a more educated member can chime in.

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## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

FrogTim said:


> Are your supplements purchased recently? And how long have you had the frogs? What is your set up?
> 
> Not really sure if it's environmental or supplement related but most of us use repashy calcium+ or dendrocare vitamins. Dart frogs need Vitamin A. I haven't heard of anyone using those supplements. The inability to catch prey is often due to Vitamin A deficiency, but lethargy and lack of tongue stickiness would be noticeable before death.
> 
> ...


The supplements were purchased 6 months ago. Three of the frogs were added 6 months ago and 4 more were added 2 months ago. All came from Josh's Frogs. The viv is an 18x18x24 Exo Terra with a glass top. There is a small (1/2" diameter or so) hole drilled into the side with a computer fan on the outside to provide some minimal airflow inside the tank. There isn't any other ventilation besides the cracks in the door. Could this have been carbon monoxide buildup from not opening the doors while on vacation?

Out of the 7 frogs, 2 are dead, 4 are alive, and 1 is currently unknown. I've taken the 4 I could find out of the viv in quarantined them separately. They're in larger plastic containers with some spaghnum moss and leaf litter. I added 5 or so fruit flies to each container along with a small apple piece for a feeding station, but none of the frogs seem interested in eating. I currently have them all soaking in a ringer's solution.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

connorp said:


> The supplements were purchased 6 months ago. Three of the frogs were added 6 months ago and 4 more were added 2 months ago. All came from Josh's Frogs. The viv is an 18x18x24 Exo Terra with a glass top. There is a small (1/2" diameter or so) hole drilled into the side with a computer fan on the outside to provide some minimal airflow inside the tank. There isn't any other ventilation besides the cracks in the door. Could this have been carbon monoxide buildup from not opening the doors while on vacation?
> 
> Out of the 7 frogs, 2 are dead, 4 are alive, and 1 is currently unknown. I've taken the 4 I could find out of the viv in quarantined them separately. They're in larger plastic containers with some spaghnum moss and leaf litter. I added 5 or so fruit flies to each container along with a small apple piece for a feeding station, but none of the frogs seem interested in eating. I currently have them all soaking in a ringer's solution.


I really don't see how that much co2 could build up with live plants and some ventilation. Carbon monoxide wouldn't be an issue unless you had a gasoline motor running nearby.

What substrate are you using? 

It sounds environmental to me but without a necropsy I'm just guessing.




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## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

FrogTim said:


> I really don't see how that much co2 could build up with live plants and some ventilation. Carbon monoxide wouldn't be an issue unless you had a gasoline motor running nearby.
> 
> What substrate are you using?
> 
> ...


False bottom + ABG soil from Josh's frogs + sphagnum moss + leaf litter. I already disposed of the body so I can't get a necropsy done, so unless another one dies I'll just keep my fingers crossed.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Did you do any form of quarantine or observation period before adding them to the permanent enclosure? Run any fecals? I would echo what has been said already about switching to a supplementation regimen that incorporates Repashy Calcium Plus or similar, with a form of Vit A that dart frogs can metabolize.
Is there a chance that the frog that died "right in front of you" could have merely been having a seizure? Did you leave it in place for any length of time, or did you immediately dispose of it?


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## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

Dane said:


> Did you do any form of quarantine or observation period before adding them to the permanent enclosure? Run any fecals? I would echo what has been said already about switching to a supplementation regimen that incorporates Repashy Calcium Plus or similar, with a form of Vit A that dart frogs can metabolize.
> Is there a chance that the frog that died "right in front of you" could have merely been having a seizure? Did you leave it in place for any length of time, or did you immediately dispose of it?


I didn't quarantine them before adding them which was certainly a mistake. Also didn't run any fecals - these were my first darts and I didn't know about that. I already ordered Repashy Calcium Plus. And it was certainly dead. I didn't dispose of it for over half an hour.

Another one turned up dead this morning in quarantine. I attached pictures this time. Like the other one, it was seemingly fine last night, and then just turned up dead. I personally can't see anything out of the ordinary with the body.

The only thing that does seem a bit off is the frogs all seem a bit lethargic. Like I captured them all pretty easily in the tank and when I check on them in quarantine they don't seem too put off by my hand.


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## SirRobby (Aug 28, 2017)

Sorry if this was mentioned...must've missed it if so.

You stated you used ABG & most hard scape supplies from Josh's Frogs right? What about the plants? How were you going about misting? Do you have anything else or in the same room as the tank that sprays an aersol? Whether it be something like febreeze or your wife/girlfriend/someone with hairspray?


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## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

SirRobby said:


> Sorry if this was mentioned...must've missed it if so.
> 
> You stated you used ABG & most hard scape supplies from Josh's Frogs right? What about the plants? How were you going about misting? Do you have anything else or in the same room as the tank that sprays an aersol? Whether it be something like febreeze or your wife/girlfriend/someone with hairspray?


Misting is done only every 3-4 days with tap water treated with ReptiSafe. The tank was pretty sealed (probably a bit too much) so there was always water on the glass, so no need to mist often.

I added a picture of the viv from a month or so ago (I can get a current pic later if needed). A few more plants were added to the foreground and everything has grown as well, but this is basically what it looks like now.

In terms of aerosol, I do use spray deodorant and my roommate occasionally smokes in the room. That said, all the frogs died after no one was in the room for almost two weeks so I would guess it wasn't that. But I'll still lay off that for now to be safe.


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## SirRobby (Aug 28, 2017)

but where were the plants sourced from? a local nursery? And have you always used that spray bottle? nothing accidentally got mixed in by chance? On another note, tell the roommate to stop smoking. terrible habit and quite disgusting


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

If the plants were commercially grown, and not thoroughly rinsed, they may still have had pesticides or fertilizers present when they were added to the vivarium. There are even forms of systemic pesticides which will persist on/in the plant for weeks or months, even after repeated rinsing/flushing. 
At this point, without a necropsy, all anyone can do is guess as to the cause. It is a harsh lesson to learn, especially with your first frogs. Hopefully the rest can be saved.


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## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

Dane said:


> If the plants were commercially grown, and not thoroughly rinsed, they may still have had pesticides or fertilizers present when they were added to the vivarium. There are even forms of systemic pesticides which will persist on/in the plant for weeks or months, even after repeated rinsing/flushing.
> At this point, without a necropsy, all anyone can do is guess as to the cause. It is a harsh lesson to learn, especially with your first frogs. Hopefully the rest can be saved.


The plants are all from Josh's frogs as well, but I didn't think to rinse them beforehand.

On another note, where can I get fecals done these days? All the posts I see mention Dr. Frye but they're old posts, not sure if he still does them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FrogTim said:


> I really don't see how that much co2 could build up with live plants and some ventilation. Carbon monoxide wouldn't be an issue unless you had a gasoline motor running nearby.


CO2 is heavier than air so if the tank was fairly well sealed and didn't have anything causing an air flow, you can easily get CO2 buildup. Keep in mind that CO2 is excreted by plants at night it is only while the lights are on that they uptake CO2. You also get CO2 emitted by the microbes in the substrates and leaf litters. If you want to get an idea how much microbial activity can play in that sort of emission google "spontaneous compost combustion". 

some comments 

Ed


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Ed said:


> CO2 is heavier than air so if the tank was fairly well sealed and didn't have anything causing an air flow, you can easily get CO2 buildup. Keep in mind that CO2 is excreted by plants at night it is only while the lights are on that they uptake CO2. You also get CO2 emitted by the microbes in the substrates and leaf litters. If you want to get an idea how much microbial activity can play in that sort of emission google "spontaneous compost combustion".
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Oh yeah definitely possible but I figured with active ventilation it would be pretty hard. But I don't think carbon MONOxide is his problem as he originally stated. 

You think even with his active ventilation co2 buildup could be the culprit? Assuming he doesn't have a compost pile or yeast co2 generator in there...

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## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

So just a quick update. The 4 remaining frogs are back in the tank and 3/4 are already fairly active which is good. One is a bit lethargic but still responsive. I have Repashy calcium plus which I already dusted some flies with. Haven't seen any eat but then again I rarely do. I ordered an RO/DI unit in case it's some contaminant in the water, and am trying the figure out how to increase ventilation. Fingers crossed these guys pull through.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FrogTim said:


> Oh yeah definitely possible but I figured with active ventilation it would be pretty hard. But I don't think carbon MONOxide is his problem as he originally stated. k


I was addressing the first sentence that you wrote (that I quoted) since you specifically referenced CO*2* and *not CO*. 

And for the record bacteria can evolve CO (carbon MONoxide) from iron groups. see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC251565/

some comments 

Ed


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## Frogsarefun (Nov 25, 2015)

A thought when reading this is that seven vents might be too many.
I have had some males that did not tolerate any other males.
Once I had the very same experience of a healthy frog seem to die in front of me.
I removed the frog to a grow out tub because I had heard that on occasion they can revive. Luckily he did and is about 4 years old now.
That was a group of young vents 2:2 in a 24/18/24 exoterra.
So possibly stress???


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## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

Frogsarefun said:


> A thought when reading this is that seven vents might be too many.
> I have had some males that did not tolerate any other males.
> Once I had the very same experience of a healthy frog seem to die in front of me.
> I removed the frog to a grow out tub because I had heard that on occasion they can revive. Luckily he did and is about 4 years old now.
> ...


Perhaps. I never say any aggression but I know it can be hard to see. My best guess is that this was bacterial and something triggered stress which weakened their immune systems. Two of the four remaining frogs seem to be better. They're both active and eating well. The other two only show up every few days so not sure about them.


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