# How wet is too wet?



## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

How wet is too wet? Is it about standing water, or about saturating the substrate? I've read that people leave their misting systems on in very short bursts to avoid flooding the vivarium, but if the vivarium were plumbed to drain to a sump below the tank would you be able to simulate a longer rain storm without having negative effects on the frogs? Here's a terrible paint drawing of what I was pondering :










The original thought was with a vertical vivarium and a drip tray rather than a spray bar (which I think would be a way better implementation), but horizontal implementation issues aside -- would it be bad to run a couple gallons of water through the viv every afternoon in this fashion? I figure a 1/2" of rain on a 2 square foot area equates to 1.25 gallons. I dunno how much rain falls in the rain forest, but it's called a rain forest after all .

I'm a total newb though, so I'm guessing this is a stupid idea, but I figured I'd run it by the experts anyhow .

-GB


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Hmm that sounds a little too wet. Remember that your plants need to live too. I think all that moisture will rot most of them out. But, I'm a noob too, so don't take my word for it.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

A long shower, and that volume of water isn't a problem--provided you have proper air circulation, and well draining media. As long as your media will allow the water to pass through without dislodging your plants, it shouldn't stay too soggy.

In my garden, I keep a large number of my Anthuriums, Episcias, and orchids in hanging baskets. It isn't unusual to receive 2" or more of rain in an hour in the summer time. I never have any problems with the plants--provided the leaves receive a minimal amount of air movement. I use a mix that's the following: 2 parts finely chopped sphagnum (I buy the long-strand orchid moss, and chop it up into 1/2" long pieces), 2 parts fir bark (available from orchid supply places or as ReptiBark), 2 parts fine tree fern fiber, 1 part fine charcoal, 2 parts peat, 1 part coir. I've also started using this mix in a couple vivariums with excellent results so far. 
For my Episcia's that are outside, I use a mix of 50% Fafard 3B (Peat, Pearlite, Decomposed Pine Bark) and 50% Sure-Gro Premium Orchid Mix (Fir Bark, Pearlite, Charcoal). *Don't use this second mix in a vivarium, as the frogs can eat pearlite with disasterous results.*

The only issue I can see you having with this type of system is filtration. You will need to heavily filter the water to keep small debris from clogging your misting nozzles. You would be better off to create a "rain chamber" for this type of watering system. 

I'd say give it a go. I'd be interested to see your results.

Oh, and 1.25 gallons of water would come out to about 1" of rain over 2 sq. ft. (7.48 gallons water per cubic foot, divided by 12= 1" per sq. ft. surface area is .623 gallons x 2 sq. ft. = 1.248 gallons


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

By "rain chamber", do you mean a chamber in the viv proper for the pump etc? Or something else? With a sump filtering aught not be a problem... could even go with a full-up wet/dry filter tower, but that might be overkill.

Would a "euro-style" viv (vent in front/bottom, another vent in back/top) give sufficient air movement? I'm not sure how to get good air movement in a regular horizontal tank, must ponder .

And you're right -- i screwed up my rain calculation!

I might just have to build 2 vivs... I've got some crazy ideas I want to try but they're really better suited for a vertical viv (while a horizontal viv seems better suited for most beginner frogs).


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## nicolerc (Jul 13, 2009)

Granted it is very new and hasn't had the test of time yet, but my tank is set up just like that, except I use airline hose with holes poked in it to simulate the dripping rain instead of misters. It comes on every morning for about half an hour. It is worth noting though that I am not using a traditional soil substrate, just pure turface which drains very well, and my plants are set into peat pots containing a peat-coco-sphag mix that sit well above the water line. I also have a fan for ventilation and air flow.


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

nicolerc said:


> Granted it is very new and hasn't had the test of time yet, but my tank is set up just like that, except I use airline hose with holes poked in it to simulate the dripping rain instead of misters.


Very cool! What sort of pump are you using? How much water does the setup throw in that half-hour? I was wanting a steady drip rather than a spray anyways (it's hard to see in the picture but those are holes in the pipe with drops coming out rather than spray nozzles inserted lol )...
Any pics would be appreciated!


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## nicolerc (Jul 13, 2009)

gbeauvin said:


> Very cool! What sort of pump are you using? How much water does the setup throw in that half-hour? I was wanting a steady drip rather than a spray anyways (it's hard to see in the picture but those are holes in the pipe with drops coming out rather than spray nozzles inserted lol )...
> Any pics would be appreciated!


I'm using this pump and it has just enough oomph to pump the water up to the top (about 5'). I'm not sure how much water it moves, since at that height it's barely a trickle, but my sump bucket only holds about a gallon and a half. I've got some pics on my camera at home I just need to upload them. I should be able to do that tonight and maybe I can get a video in the morning when it kicks on.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

A Euro-style vivarium would really help with the air circulation. You may also want to add a PC fan or two at the top to mechanically pull air through the vivarium.

By "rain chamber" I mean a series of pipes or small acrylic box at the top of the vivarium that's drilled to allow water droplets to fall as the "chamber" fills with water from your recirculation pump.


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## Brien (Aug 27, 2009)

" How wet is too wet? " THATS WHAT SHE SAID !


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## nicolerc (Jul 13, 2009)

brien said:


> " How wet is too wet? " THATS WHAT SHE SAID !


LOL

So here's that video I promised. It's got the rain system info at the beginning then just me blathering on and on about everything else


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

Nicole,

What did you use to punch what size holes in your airline tubing? You have a very nice "rain" effect. I was afraid such a setup would look more like a bunch of long squirts than actual rain. Perhaps the sizing of your pump has something to do with it.

Thanks,
Bob


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## nicolerc (Jul 13, 2009)

radiata said:


> Nicole,
> 
> What did you use to punch what size holes in your airline tubing? You have a very nice "rain" effect. I was afraid such a setup would look more like a bunch of long squirts than actual rain. Perhaps the sizing of your pump has something to do with it.
> 
> ...


I heated a needle with a candle and poked the holes in it. The pump is just shy of it's max head rating of 5 feet, so it is just barely pushing any water. You could always use a valve to limit the flow also.


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Wow, thanks for the video! I love your rain effect.

I'm planning a 20-gallon "tall" horizontal viv, and sadly the top-opening nature of such a viv makes a rain chamber hard to implement... I'm thinking with your airline tubing solution though that I may be able to work something out! I appreciate the inspiration.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Nice job and nice viv. Does the water bucket for the rain just drain itself through the rain system and not get refilled unless you do it manually? I'm working on a similar system but mine was recirculating so the water that was the rain went right back into the system. I was using Tom's aqua lifter pumps though and didn't have enough of them to run all the features so the rain bar is scrapped for now. 

If that is the case you could drill a hole in the side of the tank where you want the water level to stop and have all excess water run out the bulkhead through a tube and back into your water bucket (assuming the tank isn't tempered glass)


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## nicolerc (Jul 13, 2009)

There is a second bulkhead that acts as the drain, like in the picture in the first post of this thread. I have a short standpipe attached to it inside my false bottom to keep the water level where I want it. I still have to make sure to have enough water in the bucket for a full rain cycle because it takes a surprisingly long amount of time for the water to drain back through the turface and weed block fabric back to the bucket. I imagine it will need topping off once a week or so, at which point I can just dump it and add fresh water.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ah ok...You could go with a seconds timer or a timer that at least goes down to 1 min increments and basically do 3-5 5 minute rains per day. May slow down the need to top off.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

So jealous! Better not let my frogs see because they might want to move out. 

Angela


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