# Chances of survival after symptoms appear.



## Tripod (Jun 5, 2006)

Having just lost a mature, female azureus that went from robust to dead in a period of 48 hours, with every effort made to save her (vets, medicines, etc.), I wonder on just how futile our efforts are in this regard.

I realize that most of us can not simply stand aside and watch our frogs deteriorate and die without trying to intervene; however, given the odds of survival once symptoms appear is it worth the amount of time and money we spend?

And just to field any of the dozens of questions that will be asked:
- The husbandry of these frogs is first rate. 
- This frog came from one of the top breeders in the hobby. 
- No other frogs are exhibiting symptoms.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Interesting topic, Tripod. Between 3 related hobbyists, we've lost a few frogs despite recommended treatments, including such things as metronidazole, Ca-gluconate soaks, Pedialyte soaks, Baytril prescription, force feeding, etc. Vet attention has been sought and necropsy info as well (inconclusive). In one case, one froglet (of 4 new ones) got the dreaded wasting syndrome and eventually perished in spite of treatment, while the other 3 (needless to say, under the exact same husbandry) went on to mature and become a nice breeding group. In another case, one after another of the 3 frogs in a viv went off their food, did not respond to treatment, and ultimately perished. 

So it's discouraging, but I guess we'll keep trying treatment if we ever need it again, and keep learning as much as we can from the experts on this board. From what I've noticed following this forum, though, I think there are a lot of bad outcomes among frogs that develop certain symptoms...However, if your poll ends up with encouraging results, it'll make the treatment options that much easier to undertake...

I guess, personally, whether or not I feel the chances are very great, I'd have a hard time deciding not to try every possible way to save an animal...


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I understand what you are trying to do with the poll, but IMO you can't make a broad generalization like this.

So many factors go into the survivability of an ill frog:

*How long did the illness go undetected before treatment was offered? * Animals (well most) have excellent ways of hiding the signs of sickness until it is very advanced. This makes sense if you think that an animal acting sick (even a toxic one) would make easy prey. So by the time you can actually observe overt illness, it is very late in the process.

*What is the nature of the illness?* Not all infections or diseases are created equal, so their clinical nature and severity will obviously vary. The survivability of Flu (influenza) and Ebola viruses are very different.

*How stressed was the frog during the illness?* The level of stress can have a huge effect on the outcome of the disease process. What medications were being used? How were they being administered? What was the dose? What environment was the frog kept in during treatment? How much security did that frog have in its quarantine container? 

You are right, often times, in the face of a very advanced problem, complete recovery is not always possible - but there are a number of things that can be done to increase that likelihood.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

We also assume (wrongly) that all illness should be treatable.

Now lets assume for a minute that frogs could also be afflicted with disease that doesn't respond to hydration, food, and random use of antibiotics (pretty much the only things we can do for them...quite futilely really)...we would be right, correct? Frogs aren't alone....visit a childrens hospital for instance.

...Congenital malformations, organ failures, metabolic diseases, toxins, acquired injuries....and many, many more things untreatable and disappointing.

Anyone who has kept a pet has likely experience a loss that they cant explain or were unable to control.

My general strategy has been to make the animal comfortable, stress free, identify any obvious factors at play, but I dont typically go to great lengths to overtreat if I can help it.....an amphibian DNR

S


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## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

I had a prob once with an adult cobalt. Fat and sassy as could be, brought it home from my friends and it then hid all the time, lost the weight very quickly (practically shrank in like 2 or 3 days), grew extremely lethargic and died a day afterwards. ive seen things die quickly but this was too quick I think to even intervene.


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## Tripod (Jun 5, 2006)

I must say, the poll response is somewat surprising. I did not think the results would indicate a positive outcome. This is good.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

> So many factors go into the survivability of an ill frog:


strongly agree.

Very Good Post Tripod, but I think a more accurate picture would've been done in percentage of saves verses number of saves.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Yeah, that makes more sense...


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## Tripod (Jun 5, 2006)

David and Bryan,

Are you guys suggesting a poll of saves vs. attempts such as 1 in 2 (50%), 1 in 3 (33%), etc.? Sounds like a good metric. I will think a bit on what range to span the entries before posting a new poll.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

personally, i don't poke around my frogs tanks a whole lot. so usually by the time i notice something it rarely has a good outcome. i know several people who have given up even trying to medicate, and honestly i may go that route. for me it seems like every 4 months or so i may notice that 1 frog starts acting weird. usually it is nothing, but occasionally i'll lose a frog. especially with young froglets as i have a tendency to just put them into a grow out tank, put food in with them and give them limited special attention (usually just mist, rarely do i go poking around checking on them), the frogs that grow up are obviously the stronger frogs.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Lukez (Darks!de) had a tinc that was skinny upon death, yet he forcefed it and apparently it made it. The frogs had a bad case of worms.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Anybody ever have a success with tumbnails/pumilios?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Out of the 2 pumilio I posted pics of in the white plains post, one had its stomach(or swollen tongue) protruding out of it`s mouth about a week after arrival. I mean this thing looked as if someone stepped on it. I saw a pic of something similar in an atelopus w/ septicemia. I immediately started metronidazole and moved him to a seperate quarentine enclosure, 1 drop every 4 - 6 hours, sometimes dropping it onto his open mouth. There really wasn`t time for a fecal at that point. He couldn`t close his mouth for 2 days because of this. After 24 hrs the swelling started to go down. After 48hrs he had a small lump on his vocal sac and could close his mouth although he would ?cough? every once in a while. On day 3 he was eating again w/ no swelling or sign of infection. I have never seen anything like it and i really contemplated euthanizing him but i figured i`d try. I`m quite glad i did. 
After that experience, i`d say never count them out.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

steel, i believe Damian had some sick lamasi for a while but he used calcium baths and metrozinole and they perked up, however he did lose half the group.


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