# Shy leucomelas?



## Smithzacharys (Nov 2, 2020)

Hey guys!

I purchased a male bumblebee dartfrog about a year ago and have hardly seen him since! I hear him call at night and see the fruitflies disappear but I can't ever seem to find him.. So I bought a female bumblebee hoping that the two would become more social together. WRONG. When I purchased the male he was moderately outgoing at the store and then became more timid as he got older. He was housed by the store in a small vivarium with soggy moss, a moderately bright light, and a small hiding container. Since then, I built out a full bio-active enclosure with multiple hiding spots, foliage, mistings twice per day, etc. Yet somehow I still hardly see him. In order to make the tank feel even safer, I added car window tint to the sides, which briefly helped but he has since retreated to his hermit (lol) ways. 

Now, the new female frog was extremely outgoing at the store. It was in the same set up with soggy moss, a small container to hide in, and that was about it. She was hopping around, climbing the glass, etc at the store. Yesterday, she was doing the same in this vivarium. Since then, she has hardly moved from a sheltered spot under a log.

So at this point I've got two sheltered frogs that I never see in a vivarium that appears empty 99% of the time. I'm frustrated and unsure of what to do next in order to help the frogs come out more. 

Here are a couple of the things I've tried (mostly on the male frog since he's been around longer)...

More misting since it's possible that they're retreating due to lack of humidity. Nada.
More feedings in order to bring him out more. Nope, the fruitflies crawl into the log that he lives in and he never has to come out. 
Less feedings to make him come to the feeding spot near the middle of the tank. Nope, he waits till I leave and I never see him.
Less UV light. Behavior didn't change, plants struggled.
Removed night purple LED light. No behavior change, tank looks less cool. 
More foliage. He stayed in the log, it didn't matter. 
Less foliage. See above. 
Removing the hollow hiding log. He found another log and hid behind that. 
Added tint to reduce visiblity on the sides of the enclosure. Frog came out for a bit and then returned to normal behavior. 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that if this frog is just anti-social, it's fine. But this new frog? That I saw jumping around in the crappiest tank? He should be loving the new enclosure not hiding under a log! Is there something wrong with my vivarium? What can I change to help both frogs feel more comfortable?

TL;DR: I never see my frogs. Tried everything. Frustrated. All I have to show for my work is an empty vivarium and the occasional wandering fruit fly. 






  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  







  




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## Frogmanjared (Jul 17, 2020)

Not sure I can fully help, but there should be zero uv light. You had mentioned the frog calls at night. What’s your lighting schedule, and how much ambient light reaches the vivarium during its night (should be zero view lights above tank, just use a flashlight if you want to peek). 
There looks to be a glass cover over the entire top of an aquarium? There are multiple factors that will alter the frogs behavior/health.

Don’t focus on removing favored hiding spots. If the frog is avoiding something(s), it has picked the best spot ,environmentally speaking, that it could find.


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## Lincoln B (Jan 29, 2021)

If you put them in a bigger tank they’ll be more active. There isn’t humidity and temperature gradients in tanks that small. Plus doesn’t look like you have any ventilation.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'd say remove the UVB light, too, but since UVB doesn't penetrate glass (and there's no screen, correct?) the frogs weren't getting any UVB anyway.

There's no ventilation in the viv, it seems. A glass box needs either (a) a partially (~25%) screened top and some vents at the substrate, so that warm air can rise and pull in fresh air from the bottom, or (b) a fan blowing fresh air in (or stale air out) and another vent opposite the fan to allow stale air out (or fresh air in). CO2 is heavier than air and will pool in even a topless box. Fish tanks are really challenging to make into vivs -- that's just physics, unfortunately. Vivs are even harder to make into fish tanks, though, which also makes sense. 

After (only after) the ventilation issue is addressed, I'd increase the amount of water during 'misting' by a very large amount. The viv looks very, very dry -- there's a pile of bone-dry spag in the left front corner, and the leaf litter is dry all the way down, as far as can be seen in the photos. Leucs aestivate during dry periods in the wild -- this might well be what you're seeing.

'Misting' is a misleading word sometimes, so: make it rain (think 'rainforest'). Mist until the drainage layer gets water in it -- and use a pump-type sprayer; a one-squirt-per-squeeze mister won't work. The viv should get soaked daily, and get decently dry on leaf surfaces later each day. For reference, I once measured a typical, not extra-heavy misting session in an InSitu viv (22" x 16" x 24" -- about 30 gallons) at a bit more than 150ml (about 5 fluid ounces) -- I normally do that twice each morning an hour or two apart, then no misting until the next morning. Every time I feed (every third day, or so), I do an extra rain manually, rinsing the plants, flushing the broms, rinsing the glass, soaking the corners that otherwise get missed. My vivs without drains need the drainage layer siphoned every few weeks.

If you're measuring humidity with a meter, don't. It is misleading.

And keep asking questions, and keep us posted on results.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

I have found that frogs tend to be much shier in top opening terrariums.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

thedudeabides said:


> I have found that frogs tend to be much shier in top opening terrariums.


This is interesting. Any more details? Species you've noticed this with (or species that are exceptions to the rule), speculation as to why this is the case?


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This is interesting. Any more details? Species you've noticed this with (or species that are exceptions to the rule), speculation as to why this is the case?


I only have auratus and tincs so a limited sample size. I have the auratus in top opening tanks ATM but plan to convert to front opening when $ allows as they are quite shy (especially my goldens). But with the tincs I have noticed this as I have had them in both types. I have also heard this anecdotally over the years.

As far as why who knows. Perhaps there is more of a perceived threat from above as opposed to ground level (birds preying on them / ambush predators in the canopy). Perhaps it just more disruptive in general to open and have hands enter from the top. 

All that said it could be another factor all together that causes this as no 2 setups/species are the same.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I haven't had this experience with anything but D. auratus -- and these have tended to be shy for me no matter what the door placement was, i.e. they'd come out but bolt at the first sign of a door opening.

Tincs, terribilis, leucs ... all of them get conditioned to the point where in top opening enclosures (only my grow-outs at this point) they look straight up and wait for the food to appear. It's been a long time since I kept pumilio but they weren't all that different based on door placement. 

Other factors may come into play -- individual frog temperaments, if the room is quiet, length of time in a given location ... my frogs do seem to act more cautious when there's more than one large primate in the room. I live alone so they're habituated to me, but when my girlfriend comes over they may be a little more cautious; same with a friend of mine and his son back before the pandemic squashed visits.


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## geginn64 (Jun 24, 2020)

I have a converted reef tank which is top open. I've had my (now one) leucomelas for about 3 months the tank mate went missing. 

Misting seems to be the key for mine as I rarely saw him. I was not misting very often even though the leaf litter appeared moist. Once I started misting everyday he comes out to feed on the insects (stray fruit flies and the occasional fungus gnats) then he explores and is very active. He doesn't seem to mind my maintenance or feeding from above. 

I tend to mist heavy once a week and moderately twice a day on my off days and a little more once a day when I have day or night duty.


I read that the leucomelas come from Western Guiana which "98.9% of the land territory of French Guiana is covered by forests, a large part of which is primeval _rainforest_."

In the photo it is about 5 min after misting. The fan has dried the brom leaves but the ivy leaf is still wet.









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## Smithzacharys (Nov 2, 2020)

Frogmanjared said:


> Not sure I can fully help, but there should be zero uv light. You had mentioned the frog calls at night. What’s your lighting schedule, and how much ambient light reaches the vivarium during its night (should be zero view lights above tank, just use a flashlight if you want to peek).
> There looks to be a glass cover over the entire top of an aquarium? There are multiple factors that will alter the frogs behavior/health.
> 
> Don’t focus on removing favored hiding spots. If the frog is avoiding something(s), it has picked the best spot ,environmentally speaking, that it could find.


Thanks, Frog Man! Why should there be zero UV light? How will the plants receive the UV that they need? When I was originally doing research for designing this vivarium I read on forums that the glass top was an accepted practice. I've heard from a couple of people that it's an old-school technique and have since switched it to the screen top. I plan on getting smaller pieces of glass to cover 80% of the top and get some small fans to increase air flow.


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## Smithzacharys (Nov 2, 2020)

Lincoln B said:


> If you put them in a bigger tank they’ll be more active. There isn’t humidity and temperature gradients in tanks that small. Plus doesn’t look like you have any ventilation.


Thanks, Lincoln! I think I'll upgrade to a 20 gallon or so in the near future. You're hitting the same points that everyone else is which is great confirmation.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Plants don't need UVB light to grow.


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## Smithzacharys (Nov 2, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I'd say remove the UVB light, too, but since UVB doesn't penetrate glass (and there's no screen, correct?) the frogs weren't getting any UVB anyway.
> 
> There's no ventilation in the viv, it seems. A glass box needs either (a) a partially (~25%) screened top and some vents at the substrate, so that warm air can rise and pull in fresh air from the bottom, or (b) a fan blowing fresh air in (or stale air out) and another vent opposite the fan to allow stale air out (or fresh air in). CO2 is heavier than air and will pool in even a topless box. Fish tanks are really challenging to make into vivs -- that's just physics, unfortunately. Vivs are even harder to make into fish tanks, though, which also makes sense.
> 
> ...


This is fantastic advice! I'm leaning towards using the fans instead of vents at the bottom of the tank. I'm not sure how I would even go about adding substrate-level vents to this tank. For the fans, do you have a recommendation? I'm going to ditch the glass top, go back to the screen, and then setup fans on either side of the tank. One will blow air in and another to suck air out. What would you recommend for covering the remainder of the screen in order to keep humidity in? Also, how would I ensure the plants receive enough UV without the light? Would it be possible to cover part of the screen with acrylic and use the UV light over that? 

Once I've gotten this done, I'll see about getting an automated misting system. ExoTerra Monsoon seems like a good choice from the research I've done. I will absolutely increase the humidity. I'm thinking that the larger male frog is hiding in the log to retain moisture and the female frog is doing the same in another log.


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## Lincoln B (Jan 29, 2021)

Smithzacharys said:


> Thanks, Lincoln! I think I'll upgrade to a 20 gallon or so in the near future. You're hitting the same points that everyone else is which is great confirmation.


Find something bigger on offer up or petco, they have $100 75gallons a few times a year. A bigger tank will be better for the frogs but (equally important) more fun for you to observe. In small tanks they will always be in the same spot and that gets sad to see after a while.


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## Smithzacharys (Nov 2, 2020)

Lincoln B said:


> Find something bigger on offer up or petco, they have $100 75gallons a few times a year. A bigger tank will be better for the frogs but (equally important) more fun for you to observe. In small tanks they will always be in the same spot and that gets sad to see after a while.


I agree - I'll keep an eye out!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Smithzacharys said:


> This is fantastic advice! I'm leaning towards using the fans instead of vents at the bottom of the tank. I'm not sure how I would even go about adding substrate-level vents to this tank. For the fans, do you have a recommendation? I'm going to ditch the glass top, go back to the screen, and then setup fans on either side of the tank. One will blow air in and another to suck air out. What would you recommend for covering the remainder of the screen in order to keep humidity in? Also, how would I ensure the plants receive enough UV without the light? Would it be possible to cover part of the screen with acrylic and use the UV light over that?
> 
> Once I've gotten this done, I'll see about getting an automated misting system. ExoTerra Monsoon seems like a good choice from the research I've done. I will absolutely increase the humidity. I'm thinking that the larger male frog is hiding in the log to retain moisture and the female frog is doing the same in another log.


Plants don't need UVB to grow. It's completely unnecessary. 

I'm not sure what research would have said that the monsoon is a good system to use. They are all one-piece, so if any part of the mister breaks your have to replace the whole thing.

Very few of us use monsoon misting systems. Almost all of us use mistking misting systems.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Smithzacharys said:


> This is fantastic advice! I'm leaning towards using the fans instead of vents at the bottom of the tank. I'm not sure how I would even go about adding substrate-level vents to this tank.


Drilling holes, and then installing a screen insert works well. I did this here. Searching "shaving cream" here will give tips for drilling a horizontal pane.



Smithzacharys said:


> For the fans, do you have a recommendation?


No, I don't use fans. I do have a fan-vented plant only terrarium, and it is kind of a PITA. There's info in the archives, though.



Smithzacharys said:


> Also, how would I ensure the plants receive enough UV without the light? Would it be possible to cover part of the screen with acrylic and use the UV light over that?


Already said, but plants don't need UV. Also, acrylic blocks UV too (well, there is UV-transparent acrylic -- Solacryl -- that is quite expensive and hard to source). But, since neither the frogs nor the plants need UVB (and UVB can contribute to exactly the negative behavior your frogs are displaying when used without metering and as a primary light source), these facts about glass and acrylic are just academic.


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