# Color of morhping Hawaiian Auratus??



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I have group of 4 Hawaiian's that have been breeding for the last year and half or so. Over the the last 6 months about 1 out of every 4 have a more blurred pattern that is very noticable right before and after they morph- they kind of look like molten gold was splashed on them . In this picture all the froglets were otw within a week or so of each other.
The middle froglet is an expample of what I am talking about, although it he already looking more like his siblings and I think they are at about 2 weeks otw. By the 3rd month or so I could not tell the difference in their patterns anymore. 

The froglets in general have been healthy with no sls, or deaths although as you can see in the photo in this batch there is an extra front leg on one guy and that is the only odd thing that has occurred (he is still just fine by the way).

I am fairly satisfied that it is not a care issue but I thought I would check in - as it seems this group is continuing to produce this more "golden spashed" type froglet

Thanks,
Sally


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Wow, how interesting! I've never seen an Auratus with that blurred pattern. Hope you get an answer and I hope it isn't a sign of anything negative.

Although it is sad, I think the five legged frog is so neat, If he was for sale I would buy him. I always seem to fall in love with wierd or deformed animals.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Thanks Josh,

and El ( extra leg) I consider my responsibilty for as he long as he's around!
Sally


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

You have a frog with 5 legs too?? Do you live near a nuclear power plant? Just kidding. I am curious if there might be another morph of auratus mixed in the bloodline somewhere and it is showing up occasionally. It is hard to tell where the Hawaii locale originated.


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

Is the one with 5 legs the one top right agains the cup.
The extra leg would be the front left one? That is so crazy lol.
I love the hawaiians by the way, hope everything is ok with the blurred one


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Jerm said:


> It is hard to tell where the Hawaii locale originated.


 I believe that they were introduced into the Manoa valley of Oahu, Hawaii from Taboga Island, Panama in the 1930s. I believe somewhere around 200 animals were originally introduced.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

I remembered seeing this awhile back and it might help answer that question when they were introduced into Hawaiin area, as Zbrinks is correct. That's a cool pattern though, never seen a fade out pattern before.

NAS - Species FactSheet

"The green and black dart-poison frog was intentionally introduced to the upper Manoa Valley on Oahu, in 1932, for mosquito control (McKeown, 1978, 1996; Vivarium Staff, 1998). The means of introduction on Maui is not known. "


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

The link you provided also had this description:
" Color varies considerably and is usually a black or dark brown, with blotches, spots or bands of color, variable in size and exhibiting varying shades of green, tan, gold, yellow, blue, or blue-white (Silverstone, 1975; Savage and Villa R., 1986; Mattison, 1987a; Walls, 1994; Pröhl, 1997)".

I've read it before but this time I paid more attention to the word spots /blotches. I imagine there could be more diversity in their pattens then there are photographic records. Its seems auratus in general can change patterns as they age - like from regular banding to spots. 




atlfrog said:


> I remembered seeing this awhile back and it might help answer that question when they were introduced into Hawaiin area, as Zbrinks is correct. That's a cool pattern though, never seen a fade out pattern before.
> 
> NAS - Species FactSheet
> 
> "The green and black dart-poison frog was intentionally introduced to the upper Manoa Valley on Oahu, in 1932, for mosquito control (McKeown, 1978, 1996; Vivarium Staff, 1998). The means of introduction on Maui is not known. "


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

srrrio said:


> The link you provided also had this description:
> " Color varies considerably and is usually a black or dark brown, with blotches, spots or bands of color, variable in size and exhibiting varying shades of green, tan, gold, yellow, blue, or blue-white (Silverstone, 1975; Savage and Villa R., 1986; Mattison, 1987a; Walls, 1994; Pröhl, 1997)".
> 
> I've read it before but this time I paid more attention to the word spots /blotches. I imagine there could be more diversity in their pattens then there are photographic records. Its seems auratus in general can change patterns as they age - like from regular banding to spots.


Yeah, I guess I missed that. I just never seen it personally or in a picture. It's pretty cool.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

interesting color, one could easily say they are costa rican if not known where they are from, but then again i have seen some interesting frogs morph out of blues and superblues.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

I actually had some WC Hawaiian auratus a long time ago (like back when Hawaii was open) and they would produce the blurry froglets as well as some reticulated looking ones. I'm pretty sure the reticulated bred true. Back then no one really paid that much attention to the genetic odd balls and tried to breed them out. I just liked the reticulated ones so I held them back. I'll try to find old negatives and scan them (yeah, it was that long ago).


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Wow! frogs on film would be pretty cool to see just for the novelty  I will look forward to it...
Though I am not entirely certain, I believe my breeding group are F1s and that would take us back to maybe four years ago, so their WC parents could go back, at least another 2 years or more. So perhaps mine orignally came from the same circa as yours? 

Pretty interesting ..to me anyway!

Sally


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

just so you guys know Hawaii is still open for collection, the only thing is that there is a quota that you are only allowed to take 4


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Yeah, what I meant was I got them when they were coming from Hawaii by the bucket full with Jackson's chams.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Julio said:


> just so you guys know Hawaii is still open for collection, the only thing is that there is a quota that you are only allowed to take 4


Julio- I was told about a few weeks ago that no one is permitted to collect any Auratus or export/import them out. Is this wrong information? Hmm I be interested in knowing how I could get those 4. LOL


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

you have to apply for a permit at heir fish and wildlife office and it take about 2 business days for them to approve it and you are allowed to collect 4 and only 4 for per person for export same thing with the Jackson's chameleons, however, keep in mind i was there this past October and i wanted to get some and i was not able to see a single frog, So they are not as widely available as they used to be.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Julio,

A _*resident*_ of HI may be able to catch and keep four Auratus,

But

Good luck getting them out of the State and back to CONUS....


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Ok, I will have to check this out.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> Julio,
> 
> A _*resident*_ of HI may be able to catch and keep four Auratus,
> 
> ...


Hey Phil, 
you can bring them on the plane with you, just show your permit to agriculture when you are checking in and you are good to go. It is fine for you to transport them to a state that has not banned exotics. I am goign back next year so i will certainly try and get some then.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

I just out off the phone with them and they told me that it is illegal to own/transport/ship any poison dart frogs on any of the islands of Hawaii, unless you have a DNR permit, but she wasn't sure if even having the permit would do anything in regards to this as they are invasive species. She did say that you could not import at all even with a permit.

Hawaii Department of Agriculture — Hawaii Department of Agriculture
HDOA Public Information
Chairperson’s Office
(808) 973-9560
(808) 973-9613
[email protected]
1428 S. King Street
Honolulu, Hawaii 96814

Now according to DNR....
Division of Forestry and Wildlife of Hawaii

Responsible for the management of State-owned forests, natural areas, public hunting areas, and plant and wildlife sanctuaries. Program areas cover watershed protection; native resources protection, including unique ecosystems and endangered species of plants and wildlife; outdoor recreation; and commercial forestry. Issues hunting permits.

1151 Punchbowl Street, Room 325 Honolulu, Hawaii 96813
Phone 808-587-0166, FAX 808-587-0160

I was transferred to "Collection or exportation of injurious wildlife. (Wildlife Permit Guidelines) Contact: Patrick Chee at [email protected]." I didn't get in contact with him, but he would know all the rules and regulations in regards to this issue. I am waiting a call back because I would like to know for myself.

If you need a DNR permit. Now that SUX, they can sometimes be a MF to get sometimes. Of course the frogs are located only on one island so it might be easier than it is in the states.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

IF....IF.....you can get a permit for a number of them...why?

The expense alone would not be met with a reasonable hobbyist demand.

There are already HI morph's in the US...I have a colony.

While I have no problem herping some invasives now and then (ask me about _Chamaeleo calyptratus _from Florida some time), I just don't see this being viable for any reason.

Although a trip to CR or Panama is cheaper, the family may not want to go there and that's where the HI trip comes in!

You STILL get to see D_.Auratus _and _C.j. xantholophus_ as well some _Phelsuma_ and _Anolis_ !


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> IF....IF.....you can get a permit for a number of them...why?
> 
> The expense alone would not be met with a reasonable hobbyist demand.
> 
> ...


LOL If this is directed towards me, I never said I wanted to do it.  Although, I would love to explore some Hawaiian island for frogs. I just like to know what's the story on all of this. This is not the first time I have heard of this issue and I want to know more about it. Maybe it be worth a trip to go to Hawaii and bring them back on a plane. LOL BUT the DNR permit is a real killer, they don't just hand those out.  Hmmm CR and Panama is cheaper? Then I might go there for a family vacation instead.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

not directed to anyone....just sayin.

I would really like to know....it's excellent that you are getting on with aquiring the info...for info's sake.

Please post with your findings....i'm sure a number of people are curious.

I don't have relatives that live on the Islands or any inside info....but I'm curious too...


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Importing into Hawaii of almost anythign is illegal. I called my brother and asked him what the deal is. you are certainly not allowed to transport them among the islands for sure. But you are allowed to collect them and export them out of Hawaii and into the mainland as long as you have a permit, but no more than 4.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Julio said:


> Importing into Hawaii of almost anythign is illegal. I called my brother and asked him what the deal is. you are certainly not allowed to transport them among the islands for sure. But you are allowed to collect them and export them out of Hawaii and into the mainland as long as you have a permit, but no more than 4.


No one is saying your wrong or stepping on your toes. I just heard sooo many sides to this and I want to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak. So far, from what I have been told you can't transport/import/house within the island where they are as well as the rest of the areas surrounding it (according to Dep of Agriculture in Hawaii. They do not control Exporting. DNR does that and I was directed to them.), but I will know everything as soon as I hear back from the guy who supposedly runs the office from DNR in Hawaii for a clearer answer for myself on this issue, not to prove you wrong. So please do not take it the wrong way.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Merek, 
i know you are stepping on my toes, i just wanted to try and clarify things, like you said, you here info from one side to another. I know they are gonna control the collection of it, but that isn't happening until July of this year from what my brother told me.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Julio said:


> Merek,
> i know you are stepping on my toes, i just wanted to try and clarify things, like you said, you here info from one side to another. I know they are gonna control the collection of it, but that isn't happening until July of this year from what my brother told me.


I received a voice mail from Patrick Chee, but did not talk to him personally. He said that there are some exporting permits but only researchers are permitted to get them, otherwise no one is aloud to export these frogs or any other out of Hawaii. I will talk to him personally and get all the details.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Ok, verdict is in. Only researchers are permitted to get permits to export any amphibian out of Hawaii regardless of what they are and what island they are found on. Researchers have very specific guidelines and very specific permits they must follow and acquire to collect and ship.

I have heard due to the populations being on one island only, that these frogs are known to be more aggressive and less colorful than it's predecessors. They have been known to hurt and kill other morph species put together in the same tank. Now I am talking about wild caught specimens and not captive bred found in the U. S. I think more studies need to be done on this, as I like to know more information on this as I can not find it on the net to prove whether this is common knowledge already or hearsay.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Sally I'm heading to my parents house this weekend so I hope to be able find all my old negatives so that I can scan them and find the blurry Hawaiian. As I'm remembering now, the blurry ones ended up being more black than green.

I got my adults in 1996 and sold them in 2001 to someone in Colorado, so there certainly is the chance that they/their offspring could still be out there.

While looking to see if any of my old pictures were still on the web I ran across this link from February of this year to a PDF that describes a woman finding one in her backyard in Maui.

http://www.hear.org/MISC/mauinews/pdfs/20090208_poisondartfrog.pdf


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Another thought:
I guess it's not really surprising that there are so many odd balls in these auratus including the extra limbs (which I recall hearing about back in the day too) considering how limited the genetic stock is and how long they've been breeding with each other even before they ended up in the hobby. I wonder if it's a bell weather for how the hobby could go in a few decades if we aren't careful.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Aurotaenia, 

I hear what you are saying, in theory I believe my parent group be f1's and I would guess they are siblings so yes the froglets, I am sure could be affected by lack of new blood. I have seen many threads on the subject. If my info on the frogs is correct it, I think it is still a pretty short time line for things to breakdown ...but maybe thats what I want to hear/believe 

I just moved the pictured group and some others to a larger tank this eve. Was kind of rushing before lights out .. they all looked good, but could not pick out the blurred frog. "El" looked plump and was the last one to be caught pretty fast on 5 legs it seems. 

Thanks for looking for the pic. 
Sally


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

Aurotaenia said:


> Another thought:
> I guess it's not really surprising that there are so many odd balls in these auratus including the extra limbs (which I recall hearing about back in the day too) considering how limited the genetic stock is and how long they've been breeding with each other even before they ended up in the hobby. I wonder if it's a bell weather for how the hobby could go in a few decades if we aren't careful.


great observation. in fact, that may very well be happening already. 

*that's why it's SO imperative to stress on all the newcomers to the hobby, or those not familiar enough with the biological/zoological sciences, that breeding siblings is just as much a "no no" as mixing, or breeding separate morphs, or even members of the same genera.*

there are simply way too many people out there buying a group of "x" species who are obviously siblings, and subsequently pairing up frogs from that initial group to breed once they're of age... OR, frogs like _leucomelas _and _auratus_, which are commonly kept in groups... the inevitable simply occurs one day when they've sexually matured, and lo and behold, froglets! 

it boils down to simple, naivete, and innocent ignorance in most cases. nothing a little mentoring, or education won't clear right up. this information should be included along with standard husbandry protocol for members of this family. ...on care sheets, and the like. we [the hobby] may be "cutting ourselves off at the knees" by neglecting to forcefully stress this information along with nominal core husbandry practices like temp., humidity, space, etc.

i'm going to extraordinary lengths to track down as much lineage information as possible with all of my frogs. i'm going to equally extraordinary lengths to ensure that future breeding pairs of mine will be as genotypicaly diverse as humanly possible. 

one would imagine that the wild populations [which all of our frogs are direct descendants of, of course] are genetically similar enough due to geographical isolation, population dynamics, etc...

----
oh! and, very beautiful _D. auratus_, Sally!  i'm quite interested to know how the uniquely beautiful "El" is doing... i hope he/she is doing really well! i've a bit of a soft spot [to say the least] for unique, or "disabled" animals.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Have you looked into joining TWI and their Amphibian Steward Network? This is exactly the sort of thing that they are working on with the Taxon Management Groups and Plans.

It's great for the hobby that people hold their froglets back until they are sexable (what has happened to Red Eyes is ridiculous), and I've purchased plenty of sibling pairs from breeders, but then gone on to trade out the male or female with another local frogger. I wonder how many others do that. I do know that I am lucky to live in a major metro area with lots of other froggers around and that makes it easier to swap blood.

I do wonder why there is no intergrade/hybrid level vitriol spewed at the thought of breeding siblings together, continuing to line breed imitators and intermedius that have no locality data or even picking the prettiest frogs and breeding them. Not that I want to add another thing to the list of things to beat newbies about, but we need to do a better job of education people.

Is there a way we could add this caveat to the care sheets on the board?

*Edit*
Sally- still looking through the negatives, but I'll bet you the odd one ends up with way less green on it than the others at adulthood.


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

JoshK said:


> Wow, how interesting! I've never seen an Auratus with that blurred pattern. Hope you get an answer and I hope it isn't a sign of anything negative.
> 
> Although it is sad, I think the five legged frog is so neat, If he was for sale I would buy him. I always seem to fall in love with wierd or deformed animals.


Though I find this case a bit cute in a weird way... I doubt you can fall in love with the "Mutated Pig" I had nightmares from that thing!

Anyway I don't think that the extra leg is something to worry about and I have no clue where that awesome pattern came from on the middle frog... Is it for sale?


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

Aurotaenia said:


> Have you looked into joining TWI and their Amphibian Steward Network? This is exactly the sort of thing that they are working on with the Taxon Management Groups and Plans.


yes, i have been giving it a bit of thought, i simply haven't gotten around to doing so... thanks for the reminder, though.. i should really stop procrastinating, and just do it. 



> I do wonder why there is no intergrade/hybrid level vitriol spewed at the thought of breeding siblings together, continuing to line breed imitators and intermedius that have no locality data or even picking the prettiest frogs and breeding them.


i've seriously been wondering the same thing... a lot. i see so many posts / threads harping on "not mixing period," "not mixing morphs," etc... although, i hardly ever see anything about "not breeding siblings" - which, as were were discussing - could imperil the entire hobby [or worse... on a macro level, should environmental problems become devastating to flora on this little rock.]

note:  the above is in no way bashing the site, or those therein. just curious, and making an observation. i love this site, and this community!



> Is there a way we could add this caveat to the care sheets on the board?


i'm not sure, although, i definitely will ask Kyle about this. perhaps if we both send him a missive about it we could get something rolling? there may be something already here that we've not seen.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

batrachiophyle said:


> it boils down to simple, naivete, and innocent ignorance in most cases. nothing a little mentoring, or education won't clear right up. this information should be included along with standard husbandry protocol for members of this family. ...on care sheets, and the like. we [the hobby] may be "cutting ourselves off at the knees" by neglecting to forcefully stress this information along with nominal core husbandry practices like temp., humidity, space, etc.


I admire you desire to do things right, but I do think it is more complicated then that. Starting with the fact that finding the correct site specific morph is often a pretty big challenge. In some cases I believe that is better to breed siblings then to let a line die out. 

I don't have that excuse with my Hawaiians as at least as far as I know-so I could trade out my 2 males or the 2 females of the breeding foursome. However on a personal and practical level... this group as well as reps from most of my frogs have had a vet exam and fecals and they are getting along well, and breeding. I am hesitant to mess with that and shipping, etc etc. However as Chris mentioned TWI/ASN ..one of the reasons I joined was to build connections with others so that I would have more opportunity to trade out siblings or find correct mates with like minded dart keepers. 

In anycase there are many on this board that would have much better takes on this issue - perhaps starting a new thead on the subject? 


[/QUOTE]

----
oh! and, very beautiful _D. auratus_, Sally!  i'm quite interested to know how the uniquely beautiful "El" is doing... i hope he/she is doing really well! i've a bit of a soft spot [to say the least] for unique, or "disabled" animals. [/QUOTE]

Thanks and although I have not seen as much of "El" since he was moved to new tank.... but he looks to be making out fine and I would wager he will be a she - looks kind of chunky, 



Aurotaenia said:


> *Edit*
> Sally- still looking through the negatives, but I'll bet you the odd one ends up with way less green on it than the others at adulthood.


Cool, I will try and get some updated photos and see if I can figure out which one he is from his old pics. 



Peace said:


> Though I find this case a bit cute in a weird way... I doubt you can fall in love with the "Mutated Pig" I had nightmares from that thing!
> 
> Anyway I don't think that the extra leg is something to worry about and I have no clue where that awesome pattern came from on the middle frog... Is it for sale?


Glad i did not see the Mutated Pig pics! and ..feel free to pm 

Sally


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