# Darts vs. Thumbnails?



## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

I have a 40 gallon Oceanic Stretched Hex tank in my home office and I'm looking for suggestions on what pair of frogs will be the best fit for me. 

I currently have 1 Leuc living in it who is about 3 years old. I assume it is female since I've never heard calling from her. She's pretty cool, but I'm wanting to move onto something different. Since I only want to keep one tank and do not want to mix species, I would like to probably sell/ trade her toward another pair of frogs in hopes of breeding them.

I've heard that thumbnails raise their own young so I think that would be really cool to experience (do non-thumbnails also do this?). I also like bold frogs who are visible so when I have friends over I can show them off. The other thing I like is frogs who have bright colors around their face so you can distinctively see their eyes. It sounds kind of silly, but I prefer that over frogs who have black faces with black eyes.

Right now Azureus and Terribilis are my top choices for regular size darts. I really like Blue Jeans frogs and Amizonicus for my top choice in thumbnails mainly for their cool patterns and colors. What are pros and cons of darts vs. thumbs? Are they pretty much the same. Do they both raise their own young meaning I would only need the one tank to raise their eggs in vs. having to get another setup for the young?

With my current setup and the features I like in frogs, I am hoping to get some suggestions on what would be the best fit for me.

Thanks in advance for help/ advice!


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

I will have a stab at your questions...

Well lets put it this way, I assume by darts you mean species in the Dendrobates, Phyllobates, Adelphobates. Larger species, bold, and visible throughout the day. Good species to go with are certainly anything D. tinctorius which includes azureus. P. terribilis would also be a good choice. The aforementioned genura are going to certainly be active and hearty feeders.

Assuming thumbs you are meaning Oophaga, Ranitomeya. They certainly have some expressive vocalizations and can be rather active to watch when you can find them. Otherwise they are quite cryptic in nature. Yes they will care for the young ie. transporting tads and in the case of Oophaga ie. pumilio they will lay infertile eggs for the tadpoles to consume. Very neat life history for the little guys but if you are looking for bold I would go for anything that falls within the previous paragraph.

With Dendrobates, Phyllobates, and Adelphobates you will be able to leave the eggs and tadpoles in the tank but only to the point of deposition. Once deposition of the tadpole has taken place to a suited water source their parenting ends. Where as with thumbs more specifically Oophaga they will have a continued parental care throughout the life cycle. Most of us will more often then not remove the Ranitomeya tads from the tank if we can find then so as to insure sufficient care.

That is what I have for now...but in summary I would lean towards larger, bold darts. Personal favorites are D. tinctorius (Powder Blue) and P. terribils (Mint) and D. leucomelas and D. auratus (Costa Rican Green and Black).

Regards,


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Thumbnails are dart frogs, but dart frogs are not necessarily thumbnails.

Also, Oophaga are not considered thumbnails. Oophaga around the US hobby are about the size of Ranitomeya (thumbnails), but they are not considered as such, instead they're called "obligates."

Obligates must care for their tadpoles, thumbnails can care for their own tadpoles, but tadpoles can also be pulled.

For something really bold I would go for a terribilis or any tinctorius. For a thumbnail I would go for an imitator. Imitators will take care of their young in tank, and many are quite bold (however, even now and then a hobbyist will find an elusive pair).

Either way, I would say that, in its current state, your vivarium is likely not ideal for dart frogs. There is far too much water that could be converted into living space if it were dry. If you plan on keeping your tank the way it is now I would think about Vietnamese mossy frogs (not the colorful kind that you're looking at, but super cool nonetheless).


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Well thumbs are opposable while darts are pointy.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

flapjax3000 said:


> Well thumbs are opposable while darts are pointy.


agreed, i highly recommend not mixing pointy darts with thumbs, possible stresses may result from frequent contact between the two.

james


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## deboardfam (Feb 7, 2011)

Yeah... widmad and smack of the gods answered your questions well.

Thumbnails are small and typically hide a lot. Nearly all darts will raise their young. Transport tads etc. So that isnt specific to thumbs. If you are talking obligates, they are difficult to breed and raise and not for typical begginers. I may be wrong, but based on your question set I can assume you are not ready for obligates.

As far as bold colorful frogs.. you have the most bold and colorful frog I own. Leucs. Great in groups as well. Beautiful call. If you go tincs (cobals, azureus, etc). They are not a great group frog. You can do auratus but they tend to be a little shy as well, not like thumbs though. 

Ultimately its up to you to make a decision based on the info we provided you... but if I were you.. I would look for a couple male leucs to go with your lady


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

If you plan on keeping the water feature, you should look into anthonyi or an ameerega specie... they'll use it a little more than the 'traditional' dendrobatids. 

i.e. Ameerega pepperi.. found near streams in the wild and will deposit the tads in the water feature. The frogs I mentioned will also dive into the water when startled which is pretty cool/unique behavior for a PDF.


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

I figured I'd get razzed for the title of this! I didn't know what else to call a standard size dart other than "darts". Maybe I should have said Tinctorious vs. Phyllobates vs. Thumbnails 

Thanks for all of the feedback. This info is really awesome since you guys have had experience with the different frogs. I've been in the hobby for 4 years now, but haven't become a part of the community here until recently. I'd say I definitely am still a "beginner". I started in Spring '07 and originally had 3 Auratus but didn't like how shy they were so traded them at a pet store for 3 Leucs. 2 Leucs escaped and dried out soon after I got them  so I picked up 2 Azureus since I got a sweet deal at Frog Fest NW '07. The 2 Azureus lived with the lone Leuc from Summer of '07 until current. Recently, both Azureus got skinny and died one right after the other. I thought it was from old age, but looking on here it sounds like they live a lot longer than 4 years. I now assume it was from me running low on food and the Leuc was fatter than them so she must have bullied/ stressed them out or something? Maybe you guys have insight on what could have happened there?

Anyhow, now I want to do it right (no more mixed tanks!) so I want just a pair of the most colorful frogs I can find. I cleaned up my tank over the weekend and took some more shots. When I first built it, I spent quite a bit of time building the "out of tank filter/ waterfall/ plexiglass ledge/ramp system" that separates the water from land so I don't want to get rid of it. My original idea was to have fish in it for show so it currently has a neon tetra and little brown water frog (African Dwarf Frog?) living in it. 

I am very intrigued by the larger frogs that use the water feature more- especially for tads. I built the ramp at a 45 degree angle so frogs can easily get in and out. I wonder if the tads could be raised in the water and climb out when they are ready without much intervention from me.

I like the colors best on the blue/ yellow tincs, but notice that they all have black around their eyes. Is there a morph that have color all around the eyes (besides Azureus)?

Thanks again for replies!


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

No worries, I was just poking a little fun. As far as what to keep, just find out what type of frog you like and then check out species specific information.


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## deboardfam (Feb 7, 2011)

Neon tetras.. African frog... like a 40% water feature... lots going on here. Based on your tank setup (minus the african frog, I will look over that one) leucs or auratus are your best bet. They are good in groups and found near water. Could also look at other species found near streams. Most tincs are arboreal so not really found near water. 

Your previous issue could have been the feeding or the wild mix of things that are no where near the locale of these animals. Two different frog species.. one arboreal... other animals from different countries.. lots of water.. just a whole bunch of stuff going on there.

Looks like a good tank for firebelly toads...


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Beware the african dwarf frogs have been to known to be carriers of Bd. That fungus can kill off your dart frogs.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

deboardfam said:


> Most tincs are arboreal so not really found near water.


 ???????????

The ACF shouldn't stress the darts...but they can carry Bd. 
If you are dead-set on keeping your water-feature maybe you should look at some reed frogs, or Theloderma corticale (which has been mentioned before). The tank is really pretty far from ideal for most darts...I know your one leuc has survived. It looks pretty barren, maybe a little leaf litter? Check out anthonyi...they fit your wish for no black around the eyes and should be a little better suited to the water.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

deboardfam said:


> Neon tetras.. African frog... like a 40% water feature... lots going on here. Based on your tank setup (minus the african frog, I will look over that one) leucs or auratus are your best bet. They are good in groups and found near water. Could also look at other species found near streams. Most tincs are arboreal so not really found near water.
> 
> Your previous issue could have been the feeding or the wild mix of things that are no where near the locale of these animals. Two different frog species.. one arboreal... other animals from different countries.. lots of water.. just a whole bunch of stuff going on there.
> 
> Looks like a good tank for firebelly toads...


I believe leucs are commonly found in drier areas, and are more seasonal (wet-dry season) breeders usually. Tincs are terrestrial, not arboreal. 
My leucs are pigs, I'm guessing your leuc may have out-competed the azureus for food and/or stressed them out too, but it's a good idea to get a fecal test done to see if parasites were a problem (in which case you could get any new frogs you put in sick unless you disinfect the current set-up). 
That's a lot of water and not much surface land space for frogs, and what floorspace you do have seems to be pretty barren- is it just gravel with some moss in it?- I can't tell from the pictures. The way it is now, unfortunately, it just doesn't look like a dart frog tank. You might be able to change some things to make better use of the land space, but I think something more aquatic like mossy frogs would be better.
Good luck,
Bryan


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

if you currently have or have had a clawed frog in the tank it is useless for darts. as mentioned above they almost ALL carry Bd, which is a deadly fungus. i wouldnt be surprised if thats what killed your other frogs, and will potentially kill the remaining leuc in the near future. 

if you want darts, heres the opportunity to keep them happy and alive, you NEED to totally strip the tank (i mean EVERYTHING, to bear glass) then disinfect it with bleach. throw away everything that comes out of the tank, euthanize the fish, and clawed frogs, as Bd is transmitted through water, and even having them close to darts is a potential issue since they may have been in contact with the fungus. remember to be responsible with waste materials. disinfect them before trashing, and always double bag, to prevent the spread of pathogens to native wildlife.

you'll need to treat the leuc for Bd with lamasil spray (look up chytrid for "how to"s)

take all new building supplies and re-make the tank w/o a water feature (or a small one) and go from there. 

james


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## mllaursen (Jan 31, 2011)

On thing to mention about D. tinctorious is they tend to be a little more aggressive towards one and other so if you are looking to house a group rather than a pair, you may want to go with something more like a PHyllobates or one of the other Dendrobates species like Auratus or Leucomelas. One of my favorites in larger set ups is the anthonyii


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

mllaursen said:


> D. tinctorious is they tend to be a little more aggressive towards one and other


This is an understatement.



wjesse said:


> (no more mixed tanks!)


I LOVE this statement!



wjesse said:


> I am very intrigued by the larger frogs that use the water feature more- especially for tads. I built the ramp at a 45 degree angle so frogs can easily get in and out. I wonder if the tads could be raised in the water and climb out when they are ready without much intervention from me.


There are some pretty intense colors in the pepperi/bassleri range of frogs. Be prepared for some shiness. It's not that they are always going to be shy, but they need a tank best suited for them. This includes a massive amount of leaf litter. My bassleri are out all the time now, but in the beginning, before I had an understanding of what they wanted, they were pretty hard to find.

As far as what happened to your other frogs, it could be any number of things, from fungus, to parasites, to simple stress from being placed in a tank where a frog had already set up its territory. I wouldn't take any risks, I would do everything James suggested....


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Yikes! What does BD stand for? If I get a fecal done and it's clean are there other tests I should do before I tear the whole thing apart?


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Chytrid Fungus « Amphibian Ark


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

wjesse said:


> Yikes! What does BD stand for? If I get a fecal done and it's clean are there other tests I should do before I tear the whole thing apart?


Fecals typically test for parasites, not bacteria or fungus. I don't know if you have the dead bodies of the two dead frogs but if it's that big a concern you could get them necropsied (if you still have the bodies).


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't have the bodies anymore. 

I went back to the pet store where I bought the African Dwarf Frog today (not "African Clawed Frog" as I thought). He said they know about the fungus but have never had it appear in any of their frogs. He was very certain that the frog I bought did not have the fungus. Nonetheless, I found a new home for the water frog and fish anyways. I will only be housing darts in here from now on.

I also called an exotic pet specialist who is 50+ miles away and wants $65 to examine my frog. I am hoping to find another way to test my tank and/or frogs that won;t be so expensive. Are there at-home test kits?

Upon thinking over the fact that I may need to completely gut and rebuild my Vivarium, I am wondering if you guys have seen any photos of dart tanks like mine that are set up in a more dart-suited way. I want to do it right this time and I love being creative so I was hoping to be inspired by some kind of fabricated rock wall with a waterfall or something similar that I can build myself.

Thanks,


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

wjesse said:


> He said they know about the fungus but have never had it appear in any of their frogs. He was very certain that the frog I bought did not have the fungus.


Pretty sure this isn't a fungus that can usually be detected by sight....


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## deboardfam (Feb 7, 2011)

Whoa yeah, was really out of it at work. LOL Mixed a few words up. 
Shouldnt troubleshoot machines while troubleshooting darts 

 I need sleep.. lol


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Okay. I've decided to take the safe route and strip the tank and rebuild it fresh.

In the meantime I want to adopt my Leuc out to someone who will take good care of her. I can't post to classifieds yet (under 25 posts) and definitely don't want to give her to a pet store. Any suggestions? I live in the Seattle/ Tacoma area if someone wants to pick her up. 

Although I'm not asking any money- I would appreciate a few plants if someone has some they can spare/ trade for me to restart a new tank with.

Thanks.


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## Bowser (Jul 4, 2011)

Bah... If i had a tank setup, i'd so take you up on your offer  it's good you're thinking more about the livestock than about yourself


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

I found a home for the Leuc over the weekend at Seattle Reptile in Everett. Place had a TON of darts already there and the guy said he knew exactly how to care for her so I feel good about giving her to him.

After taking into consideration all of the advice I got, I decided I do want thumbnails after all. On my way home I dropped by Phil Tan's place and picked up 4 Veradado Imitators. They are super jumpy compared to regular darts I'm used to! I'm super excited to build my viv around them.

In the meantime, I am disinfecting and rebuilding the viv while they stay in a plastic shoebox. I stripped it down, put a 5% bleach solution in it, Now I'm going to CO2 bomb it along with the plants and moss later today. I have heard from a couple dart fanatics that this will kill just about any type of contaminant if there were any in there.

Today I will be trying to figure out a new background and am really intrigued by the Drylock/ Styrofoam method. If anyone has done this with success, please share your experience and any tips I should know.

Thanks!


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Here's one of the new frogs!


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Okay, I just got the new setup finished and moved in the new frogs today! I made a Drylock/ Styrofoam background and put leaves/ moss everywhere to accommodate the thumbnails. They seem to like it pretty good so far and are a lot more bold than I expected.


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## KingSnake9 (Jul 14, 2011)

They look sooooooooo cute


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## Hoodsquirrel (Jul 28, 2011)

Thumbnails are too small! :O Lmao I prefer darts :3


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

I decided to rebuild my tank again and am much happier with the results!

I just gutted the entire thing of the Dry-lock/ Styrofoam background I put in about a month ago- that did not turn out at all what I had hoped for.

This time I rebuilt it to look like a forest near a stream. I built it with great stuff, coco fiber, sphagnum moss, cork bark, and various other wood chunks. I also put my water feature back in (for hopeful tadpole rearing).

I moved the frogs back in this morning and they seem to really like it since they are all over the whole tank. I'm starting to notice their different personalities- some run and hide while others like to hang out. They also seem to have their little areas picked out. One really likes the water, another hides under the leaves, another one is usually climbing. Pretty awesome to watch!


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