# Anyone in the US own Vanzolini's poison dart frog?



## Guest (Feb 7, 2006)

I recently saw Vanzolini's poison dart frog (Dendrobates vanzolinii) offered for sale on a UK website and I was stunned. Does any breeder in the US have this frog?










Image from http://www.dartfrog.co.uk/amphibians.html


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

holy crap! thats 489.99 a pair, shipping not included. :shock:


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## dcameron (Jun 9, 2004)

Its not cheap to smuggle frogs out of SA and you have to account for all the ones that die in transit.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2006)

I hope they breed it fast so they stop importing/smuggling


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Khamul1of9 said:


> I hope they breed it fast so they stop importing/smuggling


Oh - so you'd like to reward the smugglers?

s


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Smuggling is an ugly and destructive business as this thread notes...

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7628

but in fairness there are a few frog species/morphs in the US hobby that apparently didn't exit their country of origin in the most legal fashion. When there is a demand, someone will find a way to supply...sad but true.

Bill


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

Some seized vanzolinii have been placed with certain hobbyists by German authorities. These people are allowed to sell them with correct papers so not all vanzilinii are still illegal. 

I don't really agree with such government policies because they really do make smuggling worthwhile... but hay.. I definitaly can't say I don't like them being legal in the hobby.

I know there are some people who didn't have papers for these frogs just bought another pair of them with papers and sold them again as legal offspring, this way keeping the papers and actually making their illegal frogs legal.

Anyway.. I've seen legal vanzolinii go for 150 euro each on the Dutch frogday a couple of months ago.

Remco


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

> but in fairness there are a few frog species/morphs in the US hobby that apparently didn't exit their country of origin in the most legal fashion.


Defintely. There are *a lot* of frog species/morphs in the US hobby that didn't exit their country of origin legally. Have a look at all the new thumbnails that showed up in recent years, the new imitators, lamasi, new fantasticus morphs, etc. etc. It's pretty disgusting. We love to say we want what's best for the frogs, we want to help preserve wild populations and establish captive colonies, but it seems when that new pretty frog comes around and is offered for sale we buy them up with no regard for where that money goes. Smuggling doesn't just occur in Europe. By purchasing the offspring of smuggled frogs in the States, we directly support the demand for illegally collected and unsustainably collected dart frogs.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Well put Devin!


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2006)

Scott said:


> Khamul1of9 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they breed it fast so they stop importing/smuggling
> ...



No, :x 
I just thought it was already being kept in captivity. And following that, I was just hoping they bred them fast so as to reduce demand for wild caught species. Lets face it, demand for that frog isnt going to go down. The only way to save them now is to breed them in captivity so people can leave them alone in the wild.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That's the same logic being used by folks hoping to legalize Mysteriousis.

Naive me on the other hand hopes to protect the wild resources and keep the smuggers from making a bundle.

I do realize it's a hopeless thing to wish this - but I think rewarding the smugglers (and allowing them to sell the offspring of what they've stolen from nature *is* rewarding them) is not the right way to go.

s


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## Filip (Jan 12, 2006)

Hmmm, i won't defend smuggling, not at all BUT... 

If the habitat from the frogs wouldn't be attacked
(rich folks building big houses on the Bastimentos island, trees being cut down for the paper- and woodindustry, environmental pollution, ............
........................................................................................................................................), smuggling wouldn't be able to even shrink the population! 

Populations will go down anyway if we keep on living like we're used to, smugglers or not... 

And it's true, i agree: the illegal trade in frogs and the amounts of money asked is quite disgusting for the moment. But personally i don't think this is the most important negative influence on populations...


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

I totally agree with Filip.

Just look at the rainforest Rainer is trying to protect.. one of the fantasticus morphs could only be found in a small patch of forest where chainsaws where heard on the background.. I bet this morph will be gone in a few months by illegal logging. If it's not gone already...

Remco


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Hi,

I have to disagree with what is implied by Filip and Remco.

Are you both suggesting that if something isn't the largest threat (smuggling in this case) then only the biggest threat (habitat loss) should be addressed? Maybe I'm reading too much into what you are posting, but it seems like an attempt to minimize and rationalize the harm of smuggling which is unsustainable and a violation of national and international laws.

Illegal animal smuggling is thought to be 3rd in terms of dollars globally after drugs and weapons. Similarly, it can be tied to other illegal activities such as drug, weapon, and human smuggling:

http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/ ... mbers.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2049788.stm

Second, it is a gross generalization that smuggling won't be able to shrink a population. Conservation at the population level which is the emerging conservation paradigm can most certainly suffer a negative impact from overcollection. If the argument is that the fantasticus morph should be open to smuggling because the habitat is under pressure, I have to disagree again. Saying that we might as well smuggle them into the hobby because "they are going to be lost anyway" is a dangerous rationalization. Conservation breeding is complicated and unmanaged collection of animals provides negligible if any benefit to real conservation breeding.

Third, you punish sustainable businesses by supporting illegal harvesting. There are businesses and other endeavors who are working with local governments and scientists to export and collect animals legally and in a sustainable fashion. This incurs an overhead cost that the smuggler doesn't have to worry about. The smuggler short cuts the procedures, scientific rigor, and fees that are integral to conservation programs while putting legal businesses at a disadvantage.

Sincerely,

Marcos


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2006)

Just to clarify, I thought the litte frog was already in the hands of hobbiests, who I hope will breed them for the sake of the hobby. 

Do you guys think that breeding them in captivity is not an effective way of combating illegal trade?? I would think so.
Why would you keep smuggling a frog/plant/other animal that is abundant already among hobbiests?

I think that yes, buying them from the smugglers incourages illegal trade, and if you can find a legal animal, buy that one PLEASE. And yes, you shouldnt buy them from the smugglers in the first place(but lets face it, people out there are going to anyway, whether its becuase they don't care or don't know). If you really want the animal/plant find legal ways to get it. People willing to do this are likely to be the ones doing it for the love of the animals/plants, not profit.


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

Wouldn't say that.. Look to how many D.pumilio that have been smuggled to europe!!!
I don't think that you will see a difference.. I'm not for smuggling, but some animals (not specially dartfrogs) only excist in captivity for the moment, and some of them ARE in captivity just because they were smuggled.

Grtz,
Thomas


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2006)

Then people have to use breeding to combat smuggling, AND people have to know NOT TO BUY wild caught animals/plants especially when they can be bought as captive bred.

Its two sided, one cannot work without the other. ANd there are soo many ways to stop either one from happening, Sad but true.


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

Yeah, that's whats happening mostly..
The pumilio's aren't so popular anymore. People don't pay 100-150€ for a pumilio. That time is over, why? because most people have them and there are more and more people breeding them with succes.
The smuggling is only in periodes. And I think the persons who are smuggeling are smart enough not to catch all the animals. Because that would mean the last of that specie, if they let most of the animals behind, they can rebuild the population if that's needed and they can come back in a few years when maybe the price will have rissen again..

I think that the Idea of keeping dartfrogs in farms in the rainforest is a good step in the struggle against smuggling.. I don't think that they will smuggle ALmirante/chiriqui grande or bastimentos now here in the USA. There are plenty of breeders who have them and are breeding them regulary. If they would do that with almost every specie smuggling wouldn't be so rewarding and eventually it won't be done I think..


Grtz,
Thomas


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Thomas - I only wish that's what smugglers were thinking. They don't think about viable populations and coming back. Smuggling is about money, the frogs they are taking are $$$ right then. They'll take as many as they can smuggle. If that's only a small portion of the population, the population will recover. If its the whole population...

Localities of recently discovered frogs are often kept secret now so smugglers won't come in and take the whole population.

Projects like the Pepper and INIBICO Pero Farm-Raised projects will supply a lot of the "in demand" peru frogs right now... smuggling in those areas will probibly go down... but could easily just be shifted to other areas not letting frogs out WC or FR.


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## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

Another parellel that can be drawn is the passenger pigeons. People began killing them even faster as the wild stock neared extinction, knowing full well that they were destroying the last flock in the wild. Smugglers aren't going to protect their income source; they're just going to harvest it faster such that they beat the other smugglers and get every last profit out of something that will soon be gone. While habitat destruction might be the initial problem, smuggling could easily be the finishing blow.

A lot of people think that legalizing the frog's offspring is a good idea in that it provides captive bred animals and reduces demand. Personally, I believe that it only increases it, and makes it a lot easier for the smugglers. The only way that captive bred animals could reduce the smuggling demand is if the market were flooded with captive bred frogs to the point where demand and price drop drastically, and the supply skyrockets.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A few years ago while identifing herps for a USF&W officer at a confiscation, we spoke about the frog smuggling and the officer commented that when the planes carrying the drugs landed in the USA, the frogs were the third thing off the plane (first drugs, second guns, third frogs....)

The smugglers do not leave animals behind for several reasons, the primary one is that every animal left behind is money lost and that if they do not get the frog, then someone else will. 

There are some documented books out there that give some indication of the mentality of the smugglers see http://www.calacademy.org/research/libr ... etrade.htm for an extensive list. 

The idea that once the frog (or other animal or plant) is already in the hobby via smuggled animals really does nothing more than increase the demand for the frogs as there will be an extensive market for the new frogs and smuggled frogs can be laundered into the market as cb for top dollar. On top of this, if the animals have never been legally imported, then according to the USA laws, all of that species are illegal regardless of the number of generations in captivity. For example, if [email protected] decided to confiscate all castenoticus tomorrow, they would be legally able to and everyone that purchased any of these that crossed a state line would be subject to the provisions of the LACY act. 

Ed


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

Yeah,
The case is with the Peru projects that in the US they will be imported quite easely. Here in Europe it will be 2007 until the first farm raised animals will be brought to Europe. But they are wanted right now. So smugglers can make money out of smuggling them... If they would agree a bit faster to import/export them they wouldn't make that kinds of money anymore because most people prefere paying a bit more for legal animals then for Illegal animals.. 

Grtz,
Thomas


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

Blort said:


> I have to disagree with what is implied by Filip and Remco.
> 
> Are you both suggesting that if something isn't the largest threat (smuggling in this case) then only the biggest threat (habitat loss) should be addressed? Maybe I'm reading too much into what you are posting, but it seems like an attempt to minimize and rationalize the harm of smuggling which is unsustainable and a violation of national and international laws.


No that's not what I'm suggesting. We're just trying to say smuggling is not the biggest problem in frog protection. It's the loss of habitat.

I certainly do not support illegal harvesting

Remco


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## 955i (Mar 23, 2006)

dcameron said:


> Its not cheap to smuggle frogs out of SA and you have to account for all the ones that die in transit.





Khamul1of9 said:


> I hope they breed it fast so they stop importing/smuggling


I would just like to point out that I know the owner of Dartfrog personally and he is a very knowledgeable, honest and long term keeper. I have seen the word 'expert' bandied around on this board to describe people of his stature in the hobby.

To label him a smuggler is a misinformed statement at best about a person that you have never met. The post about the fact that there are legal specimens of this frog in Europe should give an indicator that a snap judgement has been made here without all the facts being to hand.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm sorry, I never said that the people breeding or buying the frogs were the smugglers.
I would never label someone who breeds frogs a smuggler. All I know is that there are smugglers out there somewhere, who would be out of a job if breeders were instantly successful with every species they came across. Ofcourse that almost never happens.

My appologies to anyone who took my post the wrong way. I'm not in the habit of insulting people I don't know. Even the ones I do know.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

This is probably wishful thinking. But I think that one thing that might ease smuggling would be small scale collecting permits for hobbyists. Who are the people that buy smuggled frogs? die hards that want the species they've dreamed about, or the uninformed that have alot of cash in hand. If they are willing to shell out big bucks, why not go down and collect a small number of frogs. It could prevent over collection and discourage some of the smugglers we hear about that catch every single speciman of say... granuliferus and wipe out that morph forever. Yes, its happened. 

Just to throw a proposal out there,

A collecting permit could be issued for a small scale collection, say no more than 8-10 frogs per trip per permit. I would LOVE to be able to go back down to Panama and collect some pumilio and know the EXACT locale information for them. 


yeah, yeah, I know. Pipe dreams. Never happen.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2006)

That would be good, but I think it would also need a universal time limit. Say, the permits would be given out one year, they would expire for each applicant after one year, and then not release any more permits for 2-3 years.


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