# Beginner Pumilio?



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Is there a pumilio for beginners besides bastimentos? I wouldn't mind getting some bastis but the only color I like is the yellow bastimentos and I havn't seen any for sale  El dorado, isla popa, isla colon? Or are they more advanced? And by beginner I mean doesn't *absolutely* need springs(I will have springs I mean that I don't have to feed them on a FF swap Srping diet). I will be feeding them springs but the frogs don't have to rely on them.
And would a pair fit in a 15 tall or vertical?

Thank you
PS-Could you post some pics too if you have time?


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

I kept ED pums as my first egg feeder, all in all they were pretty hardy, and before I sold them when I had to move the male called every day, and I got a few eggs, unfortunately no Tad's. I had been keeping thumbnails for a while before that so I had a bit of experience. But I would say pumilio is a very different animal. I bred spingtails in the viv and always had a few food items for them, lots of leaf litter and a fair amount of ground area is good too. Not to say they don't climb. All in all my El dorado were good for my first pums but they aren't good first frogs


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

I keep anthonyi's and by the time I keep some pums I will have gotten my varaderos. Would that be enough experience? What types of food did you use? Melongaster, aphids, springs, and isopods?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

El Dorado may be your best choice. They are a bigger pum, and the babies morph big enough for fruit flies.
Personally I prefer bigger tanks for my pums. Will they fit in a 15? Yes. Would I recommend bigger? Yes. Anyway you could up size to a 25 standard horizontal?


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Is Petco's $ per gallon sale still going on? I probably would be able its just a matter of space... Do I need a UVB light and if I do, are the exo-terra lights UVB? So I'll go with El Dorado, is there any other color than yellow(I don't think so but I want to be sure).


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Honestly....any pumilio is as easy or as hard as the others ( in my experience) but....buuut....only because I did my research and sort of played out their setup and care dedication in my brain for a few weeks....then I started with blue jeans and black jeans and they have bwwn nothing but automatic for me. Any pumilio will breed for you as long as you do your homework and do the best you can to simulate that specific locale of pumilios habitat and care which they require.... Fyi....bastis are the only pums that have yet to give me anything out of 30 locales I keep.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

ExoticPocket said:


> Is Petco's $ per gallon sale still going on? I probably would be able its just a matter of space... Do I need a UVB light and if I do, are the exo-terra lights UVB? So I'll go with El Dorado, is there any other color than yellow(I don't think so but I want to be sure).


I agree with you....dorados are breeding machines!!! Haha


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Almirante or Mancreeks.

I'm going to agree with Cairo. Pumilio don't vary too much in their care across morphs. The biggest "experience" thing is many people consider certain pumilio to be "expert" pumilio because they are more rare in the hobby and need to be bred that much more to maintain that locality in the hobby.


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## arielelf (May 23, 2007)

cairo11 said:


> Honestly....any pumilio is as easy or as hard as the others ( in my experience) but....buuut....only because I did my research and sort of played out their setup and care dedication in my brain for a few weeks....then I started with blue jeans and black jeans and they have bwwn nothing but automatic for me. Any pumilio will breed for you as long as you do your homework and do the best you can to simulate that specific locale of pumilios habitat and care which they require.... Fyi....bastis are the only pums that have yet to give me anything out of 30 locales I keep.


Your Bastis have never reproduced? I'm confused.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

arielelf said:


> Your Bastpris have never reproduced? I'm confused.


My bad, got caught up with my typing....I meant dorados have never done a thing for me. Thatnks for catching that matt. I was almost a little freakn liar here. Dont know why, but dorados just wont do it and Ive gotten at least 4 1.1 or 1.2s bastis are the breeding machines.


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Almirante or Mancreeks.
> 
> I'm going to agree with Cairo. Pumilio don't vary too much in their care across morphs. The biggest "experience" thing is many people consider certain pumilio to be "expert" pumilio because they are more rare in the hobby and need to be bred that much more to maintain that locality in the hobby.


I've actually never seen Mancreeks for sale. And Almirantes are a bit out of my price range(from what ive seen). How much do Mancreeks go for? And about the UVB I think the exo-terra ones are so I will get the dual top one for the tank. Can anyone give me the dimensions for a 25 gallon high?

Thanks for all the good info!
Alex


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

There is no point in getting a UVB bulb if you plan to keep them in a vert.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Remember. Lights are for your plants and not your frogs. You need to supplement your frogs with their calcium d3, and their flintstones vitamins...haha


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Haha my bad...I read wrong and saw uvb and assumed you meant lighting


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

cairo11 said:


> Remember. Lights are for your plants and not your frogs. You need to supplement your frogs with their calcium d3, and their flintstones vitamins...haha


Darn! The only vitamins I have are the Harry Potter ones  hahahaha Ok so I won't get the UVB light. Would a 20 high be ok for a pair?


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

A 20h vert would be great for a pair.


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Is the foot print for a 20 high the same as a 10 gallon high?


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

The difficulty in pumilio is primarily with breeding and some morphs are way easier than others. For example Cristobals, Man Creek, Cauchero, El Dorado are much easier to breed. Some morphs have not been successfully bred in captivity yet. If do not care about breeding then care is fairly simple.

Here are some basics if you are considering pumilio and want to breed.

1) Use lots of leaf litter. More is better.
2) Springs are a must. If you can afford a 100 dollar frog you can buy a couple of 4 dollar cultures. Add fresh springs as often as you can. They are easy to culture, especially the tropical whites.
3) Fit as many water holding broms that you can into the vivarium. 
4) The ratio should be no more than 1.1 or 1.2 for your average sized viv. (15-40 gallons). Males fight and so do females, just not quite as much as the males.
5) Proper supplementation. Rotate several different brands of supplements if you can. I have found Repashy ICB works quite well for Oophaga because of the retinol based vitamin A. I rotate ICB Rep-Cal and Herptivite to keep it well rounded.
6) Air circulation makes a big difference if you can do it. Its not a requirement by any means.
7) Don't worry about UVB light. Your glass top blocks the UV light so the benefit is quite small if any. There has always been a bit of debate over this.
8) Check into clay based substrates. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html

If I left anything out then others feel free to add to this. Enjoy your first pums. Pumilio are my personal favorite group of frogs and make up the majority of my collection. They are not overall that hard, but eventually you will want to try to breed them.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

ExoticPocket said:


> I've actually never seen Mancreeks for sale. And Almirantes are a bit out of my price range(from what ive seen). How much do Mancreeks go for? And about the UVB I think the exo-terra ones are so I will get the dual top one for the tank. Can anyone give me the dimensions for a 25 gallon high?
> 
> Thanks for all the good info!
> Alex


How much are the almirantes you are looking at going for? I think they are one of the easier and less expensive morphs, certainly less than isla popa or isla colon. Mancreeks would probably go around the same price as almirantes, el Dorado, basti, etc. or slightly more. I haven't sold any of my mancreek offspring yet, but I plan on raising them up and selling sexed pairs for around $250. 
UVB won't penetrate the glass lid so it won't be particularly useful for the frogs. 
Some pumilio morphs may be smaller or tend to be more shy, which could play into difficulty breeding, and therefor less available, and being considered a "difficult" or "advanced" morph. Bastimentos, mancreek, almirante, and el Dorado would normally all be good "beginner" pumilio in terms of size, boldness, price, availability, ease of breeding, etc.
Good luck,
Bryan


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

ExoticPocket said:


> I've actually never seen Mancreeks for sale. And Almirantes are a bit out of my price range(from what ive seen). How much do Mancreeks go for? And about the UVB I think the exo-terra ones are so I will get the dual top one for the tank. Can anyone give me the dimensions for a 25 gallon high?
> 
> Thanks for all the good info!
> Alex


Almirante and Mancreeks are virtually indistinguishable (except for the obvious locale data).

If Almirante are out of your price range then I think bastis are just about your only choice. I'm currently under the impression that the Almirante are the second cheapest pumilio out there....


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

your right. man creek and almirante are certainly some of if not the cheapest pums available. i generally sell them local for under $100, but ive seen them go for $65 here on DB. ive even let a couple small guys (2months) go for $40ea. i think a fair market value would be right around $100 (a little more for sexed frogs/ $125-150) or $250-$300 a pair.

james


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

flapjax3000 said:


> The difficulty in pumilio is primarily with breeding and some morphs are way easier than others. For example Cristobals, Man Creek, Cauchero, El Dorado are much easier to breed. Some morphs have not been successfully bred in captivity yet. If do not care about breeding then care is fairly simple.
> 
> Here are some basics if you are considering pumilio and want to breed.
> 
> ...


About the springs I meant that the frog would die if they didn't have any. Leaf litter is a BIG will do. I'm really not that interested in breeding them. I really like the look of the Cauchero so I might go with them. About the Almirantes, the only ones I've seen for sale are on Kingsnake.... Sooooo. I'll defintely do a clay based substrate. I have Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3, would this work? If not the experation date is Dec. 2011 so I'll get those too.


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## mingeace (Apr 3, 2011)

I dont mean to ruffle feathers or promote ill kept frogs but I took in a "Man Creek" about two weeks after I started the hobby and have to say that they are not as hard to raise as I have heard or thought. 

I kept just the one male in a 10 gallon horizontal with a false bottom, watering hole thing, clay BG, substrate, leaf litter, and a few plants, and it only had one little brom pup in it. It was a quick throw together cause it was a last minute purchase (NOT RECOMMENDED).

A month later I purchased an egg producing, 1-2 year old female Man Creek for around $150. I put her in there and the male called his face off, after a few weeks there was some courting (I assume) and then within another week or so I had un-inseminated eggs deposited, a few weeks later I noticed a tad on the back and now I have a fat tad ready to pop legs sitting in that little Brom pup. 

I didn't have springs in the tank for the first few weeks and now I just throw some springs in ever few weeks. But the two adults eat up Melongaster dusted with Rapashi Calcium Plus ICB and Super Pig (for reddening) like hot cakes. 

I figure why not start Breeding a frog that takes care of its own tads, less work for me ha. I haven't yet seen a froglet and I hear thats the hardest part of the breeding process, so we'll see ha.

In my experience my Man Creek is not that much different than my mints, leucs, and thumbs. Although I did get all my Pums as adults and that really helps if things go wrong. I am setting up a new 20g for them right now but the 10g clearly worked and they felt it ok to breed in ha. I also really like the look of the Man Creek as they are very Bright Red when fed the right supplements (which are needed IMO). 

Sorry its so long but the more info you have the better choice you can make. Plus I just wanted to let you know things have worked for me without the "perfect conditions" and that Man Creek Pumilios haven't seem that hard to raise as a beginner.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

springs are NOT a "must have" for adult pumilio, but froglets depend on microfauna. whether or not you intend on breeding, if you have a pair, and broms, the likelihood is that they will breed if given proper care. so springs could therefore be considered necessary unless you plan to let offspring starve to death. 

almirante (both coded imports, and the KS stuff) are all over the place. mancreeks as well. it can be argued that they are in fact the same frog, although as always, its important to stick to import dates and importer for pairing, since this is the most effective way to manage animals which came in with little to no info. if your interested just post a wanted ad. im fairly certain that you could find a LTC pair reasonably cheap (under $300 + shipping).

as far as supplementation, regardless of expiration date they need to be trashed within 6 months of opening (for ALL frogs), and any that were open to the outside environment for any extended period of time should be also be tossed.

james


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

ExoticPocket said:


> About the springs I meant that the frog would die if they didn't have any. Leaf litter is a BIG will do. I'm really not that interested in breeding them. I really like the look of the Cauchero so I might go with them. About the Almirantes, the only ones I've seen for sale are on Kingsnake.... Sooooo. I'll defintely do a clay based substrate. I have Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3, would this work? If not the experation date is Dec. 2011 so I'll get those too.


I was just giving you a list if you decide to breed them. Honestly its more fun if you do. The males call more and you get to see more behaviors. Besides the smaller size and breeding they are not hard to keep. Pumilio tend to be quite hardy.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

mingeace said:


> the 10g clearly worked and they felt it ok to breed in ha.


its a common misconception that breeding = happy frogs, in fact breeding is also likely to occur as a result of poor care, it can be triggered as a stress response / last ditch effort to keep their genetics intact. 

something to keep in mind.
james


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Of course they are going to breed if I put broms in I'm probably not gonna try to induce breeding. I'll have to start making spring cultures!  How big are the cultures that you keep them in?


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## mingeace (Apr 3, 2011)

james67 said:


> its a common misconception that breeding = happy frogs, in fact breeding is also likely to occur as a result of poor care, it can be triggered as a stress response / last ditch effort to keep their genetics intact.
> 
> something to keep in mind.
> james


Ha I can imagine them now...

Male Pum- "Crap our world is shrinking!! We should totally have sex."
Female Pum- "You know I think your right, I can only find one Brom! Lets do it!". 
Male Pum thinking to himself- "Sweet."

Sorry to make light, I now feel even better about moving them over to a larger tank. Do you think a 20g is large enough for the pair?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i culture a couple different varieties of springs, in varying sizes of containers (anything from 9oz to 2quarts). i used to be a big fan of charcoal because i thought it was easier to remove springs from the culture, but since learning about treefern's ability to be placed in the culture and removed i've become a fan of "organic" mediums.

james


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Where do you get treefern from? Local plant store?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ExoticPocket said:


> Where do you get treefern from? Local plant store?


i seriously doubt it. its an endangered species, so the chances of finding some at the local nursery are SLIM.

i get my treefern from www.tropicalplantproducts.com 

their customer service is great, but they only accept checks or money order, no CCs.

james


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Ok thanks. Do you do clay substrates in your tanks for pumilios?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i dont personally, so i couldnt comment on their effectiveness. 

james


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Ok thanks. Are Cauchero the same as darklands or are they a different morph?


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

ExoticPocket said:


> About the springs I meant that the frog would die if they didn't have any. Leaf litter is a BIG will do. I'm really not that interested in breeding them. I really like the look of the Cauchero so I might go with them. About the Almirantes, the only ones I've seen for sale are on Kingsnake.... Sooooo. I'll defintely do a clay based substrate. I have Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3, would this work? If not the experation date is Dec. 2011 so I'll get those too.


Don't pay attention to the expiration date. Take a sharpie and write the date 6 months from when you open the container on the lid, and that is your new expiration date. Certain vitamins degrade more quickly than others which can cause problems when dusting with supplements over 6 months old. 

Do you also have Herptivite (same company, but multivitamins)? You should be dusting with both. I would also recommend buying Repashy's Calcium Plus (all in one supplement) that takes care of both the calcium and the vitamins.

If space is an issue, look into a vertical conversion kit. I think the best guideline for tank size I've heard is: Give them the most space you can reasonably afford/accomodate.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

james67 said:


> its a common misconception that breeding = happy frogs, in fact breeding is also likely to occur as a result of poor care, it can be triggered as a stress response / last ditch effort to keep their genetics intact.
> 
> something to keep in mind.
> james


I've taken too many formal logic classes....

I always think of this argument as a formal logic "if, then" statement. "If you provide proper care for your frog, then they will breed." For some reason people like to assume that you can translate this statement as "If your frog breeds, you are providing proper care for your frog." However, this is an improper and illogical translation. The only thing you can derive is "If your frog is not breeding, then you are not providing proper care" (obviously all of this is dependent on a few factors like making sure your frogs are sexually mature, that you have a pair, etc).

You're absolutely right, though. There are a number of stories of frogs laying eggs in 8 oz containers in transit being shipped from one place or another. Stress can absolutely inspire breeding (I assume it's something evolutionary... when you think you're going to die you take what resources you have to pass on your genes?).


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i mean, we know that its true (stress induced breeding), but what is really interesting to me is that a frog like pumilio, or any other obligate egg feeder, would do this since the tads survival depends on the females parental care. 

the most obvious explanation is the one given earlier. a last attempt to spread ones genes (the continuation of genetics is arguably the most important aspect of all living creature's existence) however its sort of lost on obligates because of the assumed loss of parental care. it makes me wonder why this is happening. in the case of pumilio is the frog truly is breeding for this reason? (under stress) OR are their other factors in play? obviously the female knows she must take care of her offspring, but does she know that the tads will go without care, and are therefore doomed, in this situation, or does she assume another female will mistake them for her own? its all quite interesting.

james


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I had the same question while writing that... just not as thoroughly thought out


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Pumilio will feed other females tads in viv. If it happens in the wild they may survive.


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

My question is, why are you assuming that a female pumilio is capable of rational thought


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

I will be getting a vertical kit. The deminsions were to see how much room it would take up. There will defintely be enough space but I just want so make sure.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jackxc925 said:


> My question is, why are you assuming that a female pumilio is capable of rational thought


anthropomorphizing is a common human characteristic. It's not that we actually think they have rational thought, it just allows us to put our thoughts into words that are easily understood.


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Im not getting all this talk about rational thought... Just interested in pumilio morphs


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> anthropomorphizing is a common human characteristic. It's not that we actually think they have rational thought, it just allows us to put our thoughts into words that are easily understood.


Just jokin'

Hence the


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I know, but I had a similar question in my mind, so I figured I'd clarify


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