# Cleaning up FF cultures



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I've been culturing 'Tiffany's Golden Delicious' and apterous mels, from cultures I got from Black Jungle less than 6 months ago. Lately (last few weeks) both strains are producing some fliers. I thought maybe I accidentally mixed them (I dust for mites before seeding new cultures, and use the same container for dusting, so I thought maybe a fly or two were hanging on in the cup between batches), but as far as I can learn, the two strains share the same apterous gene. I assume that each strain got contaminated by wild flies, though winter in Wisconsin (in my basement, no less) isn't ideal conditions for wild FFs.

So, three questions:

1. Can I clean up these cultures? Since wingless is recessive, it seems that all I need to do is to only seed new cultures with non-flyers to weed out the dominant winged gene. I've done this for the last few batches, but I'm still getting fliers. Is there some point in the development of an apterous FF before which they don't fly even though they carry the winged gene (i.e. am I simply using flies that are too young, and thus not seeing that they are fliers)? I don't care about the cost of getting new cultures, but I'd rather simply know how to fix it myself.

2. I've read about various beer/fruit traps for catching loose flies. Is this the best method for catching the errant wild fly, or has someone invented a 5000 volt banana scented zapper or something? Seems the traps are more for reducing the number of viv escapees (which I'm not concerned about) rather than keeping nature out of my carefully controlled facsimile of nature.

3. I'm culturing in 32oz clear cups with the 'punched hole' style lid, using Josh's mel media and Excelsior, with culture cups in a pan full of diatomaceous earth. Would a different lid prevent contamination better?


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## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

I have had some problems in the winter with flying cultures. Also placed in my basement during cold and dry season.

Not all the culters produced flyers. So I just started new cultures from the ones not flying.

But last week i discovered something interesting. I had a culture which produced a lot and without flyers in it. One day no flyers and the next almost all of them flew out of the culture when I opened it. Far more flyers than logically could have hatched over night.

I am not an expert in the genetics, but this stroke me as beeing the same flies that didnt fly the day before. Maybe this reaction triggered by environmental conditions? Food running out/water running out/too cold?? If my theori is right, it should be no problem to set new cultures from them. Trying it right now.

Anyway: I live in an area with lot of "wild" fruit flies in the summers. So for traps I have tested most of the awailable recomendations. For me apple cider vinegar is by far the most efficient. Just add a drop of dishing fluid in it to break the surface tension. Even when letting out hundreds of flyers, there are no evidence of them just an hourt later (except from in the trap och cource)

BR
Magnus


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

tropfrog said:


> But last week i discovered something interesting. I had a culture which produced a lot and without flyers in it. One day no flyers and the next almost all of them flew out of the culture when I opened it. Far more flyers than logically could have hatched over night.
> 
> I am not an expert in the genetics, but this stroke me as beeing the same flies that didnt fly the day before. Maybe this reaction triggered by environmental conditions? Food running out/water running out/too cold??


Are your FFs 'wingless' or 'flightless'? 

My understanding is that 'flightless' can indeed revert to normal fliers when the temperature exceeds some point (I don't know what that temp is specifically). Odd that this would happen to you in winter. I don't believe that this is known to happen with 'wingless' (which is what I have), but I'm experiencing something like you're describing.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

vacuum cleaner with long wand attachment is the best way to combat escapees both non flying and flying.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Yes, I have had problems with that lid style as well. I bought some fresh hydei a while back, and they came with that lid, which allowed another species inside, much to my dismay. Fortunately, I had already seeded the next cultures, and simply tossed the old, contaminated ones. I can't offer much advice in rescuing your current cultures, but I can say that a different lid style will help prevent future issues.

The only suggestion I can make is that you could allow the fliers to fly out of the cultures willy-nilly, while tapping the cup on the counter to keep the crawlers in the culture. That's not really an idea I especially like, myself, due to the obvious fly infestation you'd be creating in the house. Of course, that could be done within a larger, enclosed container if you have access to one, or would like to build one. That would be ideal if you want to avoid annoying your housemates. It wouldn't eliminate the fliers in future generations, unless you wanted to do this repeatedly for an extended period, or possibly even isolate and breed individual flies. That sounds like a massive pain to me, but it might be a fun project if it would satisfy your curiosity. 

This might be helpful or interesting to you: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3367557/


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

One of many versions of a DIY glove box that you might use:


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> with the 'punched hole' style lid,


Is this the lid they would call a "fabric" lid ? OR with the tinier punched holes?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'mNew2Frogs! said:


> Is this the lid they would call a "fabric" lid ? OR with the tinier punched holes?


The one that I'm currently using is the tiny punched holes, apparently called "vented":
VIDEO: Picking the Right Fruit Fly Culture Lid - Josh's Frogs How-To Guides
I have a bunch of the fabric ones that I simply haven't been using because they seem a bit less cleanable, but I'll switch to them and see how it goes.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

beware the tiny holes...

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/216625-new-insect-fly-cup-lids.html


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Woodswalker said:


> if you want to avoid annoying your housemates.


Thanks for the concern. I think my herp hobby is beyond that point, though... 



Woodswalker said:


> The only suggestion I can make is that you could allow the fliers to fly out of the cultures willy-nilly, while tapping the cup on the counter to keep the crawlers in the culture. [...]It wouldn't eliminate the fliers in future generations, unless you wanted to do this repeatedly for an extended period


Why would this not eliminate the fliers in the next generation? Aren't all the FFs with the flying genotype also phenotypically fliers?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Philsuma said:


> beware the tiny holes...
> 
> https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/216625-new-insect-fly-cup-lids.html


Thanks for the link. Switching to fabric lids ASAP.


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## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Are your FFs 'wingless' or 'flightless'?
> 
> My understanding is that 'flightless' can indeed revert to normal fliers when the temperature exceeds some point (I don't know what that temp is specifically). Odd that this would happen to you in winter. I don't believe that this is known to happen with 'wingless' (which is what I have), but I'm experiencing something like you're describing.


I have heard about people talking about wingless melanogaster, but i thought this was a missunderstanding. Didnt even think there were such things, are there? In Europe I have never seen it. Anyway, as you might understand I am talking about flightless melanogaster.

To hot, I am sure is not the issue. More likelly then to dry, if that can have somethig to do with it?

BR
Magnus


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

An easy and very effective fly trap for me has been:

mix 1 part apple cider vinegar to 1 part water in a cup
add a tiny drop of dish soap (to break the surface tension)

I've had success topping them back up with water as they evaporate but they do begin to lose effectiveness over time. 

I had the same issue with flyers when I had a few lids that had small rips in them I couldn't see. I was able to get rid of them by only using the cultures that didn't turn to flyers, so your method should work after you switch out the lids.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

tropfrog said:


> I have heard about people talking about wingless melanogaster, but i thought this was a missunderstanding. Didnt even think there were such things, are there?


Yes, wingless are different from flightless. Wingless don't actually have any wings, and so are smaller in size, and cannot fly or jump at all. I've tried flightless FFs and did not like them, since they can jump a couple inches and they got all over the place before I got them to the viv.

tropfrog and johnachilli: thanks for the advice on the vinegar and soap trap. I set one out yesterday and had flies in it after only a couple hours. I hadn't even known there were FFs on the loose in my reptile room. I'm going to keep a trap or two going all the time. 

Holy biosecurity on these FF cultures! I already have The Great Wall of DE and Permethrin up to keep out mites, and now I'm putting up anti-aircraft guns against the FF Air Force.


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Forgive me for what I think is the obvious but what if when you transfer FF for feeding or seeding, you just did it outside and the the fliers fly away?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'mNew2Frogs! said:


> Forgive me for what I think is the obvious but what if when you transfer FF for feeding or seeding, you just did it outside and the the fliers fly away?


That sounds like the best plan, yes: to air out the cultures outside (well, outside-ish, since it is below freezing here now). I will likely do that as I try to get these invaders out of the cultures.

There must have been wild FFs in the house before, though.


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> (well, outside-ish, since it is below freezing here now).


Sorry, I hadn't thought of that living in SE Florida.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'mNew2Frogs! said:


> Sorry, I hadn't thought of that living in SE Florida.


If I lived in SE Florida, I wouldn't think of Wisconsin, either...


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> If I lived in SE Florida, I wouldn't think of Wisconsin, either...


LOL - I did my time (+40 years) in Michigan


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Why would this not eliminate the fliers in the next generation? Aren't all the FFs with the flying genotype also phenotypically fliers?


It's an imperfect sorting mechanism, because you would almost certainly still have a handful of fliers remaining in the culture that simply didn't fly out when given the opportunity. You would probably remove MOST of them that way, but there's a good chance that some would still be left behind. If you did it every time you made cultures, I think you'd eliminate them eventually.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I'm not keen on releasing insects outside. It feels irresponsible to me. I just think of the things they could be carrying, of which I am entirely unaware, that could impact wild populations and other aspects of the environment. It's not a risk I feel I can accurately calculate, so I prefer to avoid it. That's why I didn't suggest that.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I'mNew2Frogs! said:


> LOL - I did my time (+40 years) in Michigan


If Florida is still there when I'm ready to become a snow bird, I may just join you. I still love Michigan, though.


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Woodswalker said:


> If Florida is still there when I'm ready to become a snow bird, I may just join you. I still love Michigan, though.


From a former Michigander, make it down to Deerfield Beach and I'll buy ya a beer! I can pick your brain about frogs...I'm really new to this.


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