# keeping different frogs in the same tank



## chrisc627

I have 2- 29 gal tanks that i set up and i would like to have 2 different types of frogs in each, without any problems with breeding and prospering. I plan on putting 4 frogs in each tank. Does anyone offer any suggestions?


----------



## jubjub47

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/10507-mixing-101-a.html

That should get you started.


----------



## Philsuma

all those past discussion links don't work....


----------



## Tony

The most common suggestion you'll get here is don't do it. Do a search for "mixing species" and you will find some good discussion on the topic. Mixing species is best left for experienced keepers with much larger vivs, you will save yourself a lot of trouble by sticking to one species per tank.


----------



## heatfreakk3

well why not mixing species? if he keeps the same frog in each tank he will have to pay a lot more for more tanks and plants and stuff. different species can live together if they are babies and maybe when they are adults. who cares if some people dont like it. its not their frogs


----------



## Tony

Mixing species can lead to hybridization, bullying of the less aggressive species, problems with competition for food and territory, transmission of disease, and general stress related troubles. An experienced keeper will be better able to spot and manage problems before they lead to dead frogs, but you'll find most of them agree that it usually isn't worth all the trouble unless it's for a very large show tank. It may cost more money to set up multiple tanks, but that's just the nature of the hobby, if you can't afford to properly house and care for an animal then you have no business buying it.


----------



## chesney

This is why many breeders like to speak to the people they sell to in order to make sure they are knowledgeable and not still in that newbie "I want a mixed tank" stage!


----------



## heatfreakk3

im not saying you should mix species. im just saying if you new and dont have a lot of money you can mix some species together while they are still young./ if your new you dont want to be spending tons of money yet


----------



## hexentanz

heatfreakk3 said:


> im not saying you should mix species. im just saying if you new and dont have a lot of money you can mix some species together while they are still young./ if your new you dont want to be spending tons of money yet


No, because this can slow development, lead to health problems and more. 

I always hate this 'no money excuse'. If you have no money do not get pets, plain and simple.


----------



## hexentanz

Sorry for the double ----

From an old post I made, modified slightly to fit this question;

I have asked this question to various breeders and people here in Germany (mind you not because I wish to mix but because it is one of the greatest debates) and this is what I have been told. If done correctly you can mix frogs, however this depends on many factors.

1.) You will need a large (and by large I mean very large) enough tank where each species does not feel threatened by the other or run in to each other often.

2.) You need to make sure that the two different species will not breed with each other.

3.) You need to make sure that the two species have similar care requirements.

4.) You need to make sure that the species you are mixing are not more so territorial over the other.

5.) If you plan to mix make sure that the species you are mixing are generally found in the same locations.

6.) Last but not least, if you plan to mix make sure the frogs are of similar type, ie; two or more darts or two or more tree frogs

All that aside if you wish to mix, you should talk to several people and find out what has worked for them.


----------



## heatfreakk3

have different species doesnt make your frogs have health problems. and this is an expencive hobby and you can have money but after a couple of frogs you can be out. not everyone has a job and stuff to get a bunch of money all the time


----------



## Philsuma

heatfreakk3 said:


> have different species doesnt make your frogs have health problems. and this is an expencive hobby and you can have money but after a couple of frogs you can be out. not everyone has a job and stuff to get a bunch of money all the time


 
1. Mixed species absolutely can contribute to disease and without a doubt - stress which is the VERY BASIS of health degredation.

2.If you cannot afford to adequately keep ANY animals....do not try to cut corners. Wait until you have enough money and resources before aquiring frogs.

Please read and learn a little bit more. You are posting some bad advice.


----------



## heatfreakk3

im not as old as you guys so i dont have a job. and im not giving that much bad advice, u guys are just over dramatic


----------



## hexentanz

heatfreakk3 said:


> have different species doesnt make your frogs have health problems. and this is an expencive hobby and you can have money but after a couple of frogs you can be out. not everyone has a job and stuff to get a bunch of money all the time



Even more expensive, should you keep ignoring advice given to you.


----------



## yours

Hermit crabs are pretty cheap......


----------



## IndianaJosh

DO NOT MIX. 

If you are new you definitely should not mix. 

If you want a tank for looks and different varieties of species look into keeping fish. Some are not so expensive and there is a lot of compatibility within different types of fish and species. Also there are MANY more experienced fish owners than there are Poison Dart Frog owners. So when it comes to needing advice, it is MUCH easier to find answers

Mixing causes room for stress, which also causes room for disease and a lot of times death. Or (in my opinion) even worse, hybridizing. This is a serious threat to the hobby and should be completely avoided. We do not need any labradoodles or chiweenies running around in the frog world. Designer dogs are bad enough. I can see it now *Leuczeurus $50 each.*

Please do some searching and I am sure you will come to your senses. If you have already mixed I would strongly recommend splitting the species up and getting fecals ran. Just to make sure you have not already spread disease.

If I may ask, what is wrong with having a nice pair or trio of the same species as compared to 2 or 3 of different species??


----------



## Ed

Dendrobatids tend to be territorial and unless you know what you are doing you can have problems with the frogs doing well or even surviving long-term. 

To give an idea of the items that need to be considered for multispecies enclosures that are not mixed dendrobatid enclosures I recommend perusing 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html 

Ed


----------



## Devanny

No one here is being over dramatic, you are just being hard headed these froggers are giving you good advice.
I would suggest that you do your research before coming to any conclusions.

Philsuma has good points there!





heatfreakk3 said:


> im not as old as you guys so i dont have a job. and im not giving that much bad advice, u guys are just over dramatic


----------



## chrisc627

Im sorry everybody but i still didnt get the answers im looking for. does anyone on here have any luck with mixing and what are the types.


----------



## Philsuma

chrisc627 said:


> Im sorry everybody but i still didnt get the answers im looking for. does anyone on here have any luck with mixing and what are the types.


You have been provided with the correct answer by numerous qualified hobbyists.

You will not find a SINGLE reasonable person to agree with you or give you the answer you are looking for.


----------



## chrisc627

ok- so if i have a 500 gallon tank setup- i can only put 2 frogs in it?


----------



## Philsuma

Now Chris...do you _really _have a 500 gallon tank?

Guppys are good for mixed species aquariums.


----------



## Quaz

Ahhh... and it comes round again. The old mixed species panty knot.

Yes they are over dramatic.

Though yes, there are health concerns with mixing species, ages, same sexes, and frogs coming from contaminated enclosures.

Dart frogs can be very territorial and a close eye should be kept when ever you put frogs together, even if they are the same species and sex.

With Tinctorious morphs the females are usually more aggressive but I've seen adult males wrestle each other.


I'll add more later... Education is key though... don't let these guys offend you because they get hot under the collar when people talk about mixing species and morphs


----------



## chrisc627

thank you for the most educated answer quaz. Reading what the others wrote makes me want to mix them on spite.


----------



## Quaz

The only reason I haven't mixed morphs (species) is because it is such a offense with people. 

The main and most valid concern with people IMHO is the fear that dart frogs will become like the other reptiles and amphibians that have been cross bred, line bred, and hybred to produce whatever the eye fancies.

I respect that. How ever. With what I know, and I don't know everything, but I have done a lot of research. Mixing and making designer morphs won't likely bring down the health of our animals in the hobby. 

Now I know your question was asked because you'd like other color varieties of frogs and not because you plan on making frankenfrog. But that is the fear behind the offense that you've noticed in response to your question.

Another valid concern is when you put frogs that come from another environment that may have a parasite. Please research quarantining and medicating. 

Also size of frogs is a concern and this is with same species. If you have a tiny frog with a larger one than the smaller may become intimidated and not eat. 



Back to the question at hand. In nature most morphs or Tinctorious are sepeated by natural barriers which keep the color patterns isolated but there are areas where it has been seen where there are two color morphs occupying the same location. 

There are a lot of Tinctorious morphs and it is hard to identify them already and most hobbiests want to keep the confussion down to a min and not mix the tinc morphs. And, azureus if you didn't know is a tinc. morph.

Also in the wild some auratus species and pumilio species inhabit the same areas. There are other cohabbitating species too in the wild but I can't recall the ones. There are some in columbia.



I have kept rio branco pumilio with luecomelas with out a problem. I've kept different color morphs of auratus together. But like I said, I don't mix my frogs because of all the fuss and I want to keep my rep clean since I do sell the frogs I breed. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## SMenigoz

chrisc627 said:


> thank you for the most educated answer quaz. Reading what the others wrote makes me want to mix them on spite.


Chris627,
Please consider the question YOU posed to us:
"Does anyone offer any suggestions?" pertaining to mixing species...
The dartfrog community here wants you to have success in raising frogs; for you to ignore those responding on Dendroboard is...well...your choice I guess. Whether you go ahead and mix them really makes no difference to me. 
Me-- I'll trust the opinions of those I know on this board who have far more experience than me... 
Best of luck with whatever choice you make and not do it "out of spite".
Scott


----------



## sounddrive

I'm sure i will catch a bunch of bad rep points for this but here gos. we can put this into human perspective. take one person from every race and put them on an island together.not only will you have racism, and prejudice but each person from each part of the world will have different immunities and requirements to remain healthy. Indians never new diseases brought by the white man and there for affected them a great deal more. frogs are the same way in a sense. some species wont like each other and some will be be more resilient to disease than others. obviously they are your frogs and you may do with them as you please but with all do respect why mix and take the chance if you can have happier healthier frog by devoting one enclosure to a single species. i speak from experience. i tryed the mixing thin years ago and found out the hard way that its just not a good idea. at the time i thought i was cool doing so and soon after wished id taken the advice of the more experience keepers. not to mention almost everyone in this hobby has been working really hard to educate the newcomers to make the right choices, not for personal gain but to point them in the best direction possible. most people come to this site to learn what you do with the knowledge at hand is up to you. keep in mind that in the wild some species do coexist together but thats no where near the same as a tiny glass enclosure where they have no choice but to come in contact with each other.


----------



## jdart16

Possibly causing harm to the animals you keep just to "spite" someone...think about what you just said does that seem logical?

Would your parents keep you in less than ideal housing causing you to become sick just to spite someone?

Animals have much more worth than what you are giving them and if you see them as objects that you can do with as you which you really should reconsider keeping them.

Justin


----------



## chrisc627

Now the best opinion and answer by far is by quaz once again. Thats exactly what i was looking for and it makes me NOT want to mix breeds like an average ordinary keeper. I have kept alot of tank pets over the years, ive bred discus with success, so i know the ins and outs of keeping pets. Im just looking for some answers before i destroy some beautiful, and expensive animals. Thanks again.


----------



## chrisc627

Hey jdart- get a hold of yourself. Its called sarcasm.


----------



## Nick_

Philsuma said:


> 1. Mixed species absolutely can contribute to disease and without a doubt - stress which is the VERY BASIS of health degredation.
> 
> 2.If you cannot afford to adequately keep ANY animals....do not try to cut corners. Wait until you have enough money and resources before aquiring frogs.
> 
> Please read and learn a little bit more. You are posting some bad advice.


 Very well put. Donot buy animals you cannot afford to care for properly. If you have to skimp on anything that basic you should be reconsidering your choices.



heatfreakk3 said:


> im not as old as you guys so i dont have a job. and im not giving that much bad advice, u guys are just over dramatic


 Giving any bad advice is giving far too much of it. That said I think he gets the picture from the resounding echo of why not to mix frogs.


----------



## orchid_man

I have been to two different zoos where many different species were housed together in large display vivariums. I guess it can be done but I wouldnt do it myself.


----------



## Nick_

chrisc627 said:


> Now the best opinion and answer by far is by quaz once again. Thats exactly what i was looking for and it makes me NOT want to mix breeds like an average ordinary keeper.


 Oh no he didnt.....uh uhhh......lol. I'm glad you managed to come to a conclusion to this incredibly complicated and beaten topic. I really think that the sticky for mixing sp. needs to be highlighted in flashing bold text. All joking aside, Im glad you respect the lives of these awesome critters, they really do desere the best care we can provide them.


----------



## Philsuma

orchid_man said:


> I have been to two different zoos where many different species were housed together in large display vivariums. I guess it can be done but I wouldnt do it myself.


 
Almost every zoo houses frogs in a mixed species display environment.

This is done for one reason and one reason only:

For space considerations and to draw the visual interest of a "vibrant, busy" ecosystem for the people who pay the admission fees - that support the institution.

The difference here is that the mixed species environment at a zoo is carefully and responsibly maintained by a dedicated full-time worker with, most likely, a degree in biology, herpetology and lots of experience.

Unlike the author of the OP of this thread.


----------



## jdart16

I was just looking out for the animals...

Sarcasm often isn't interpretted over the internet but I just wanted to make sure you understand, I thought I handeled myself well... but thats not the problem now.

Fish and amphibians are two totally different animals just make sure you do your research.

Justin


----------



## elmoisfive

For sarcastic remarks, please insert intended sarcasm as follows:

[sarcasm]message[/sarcasm]

Seriously though, several of the comments on this thread are not in keeping with the User Agreement concerning appropriate posting. So I would suggest that everyone take a chill pill. Life is too short to get worked up over words on the internet.

Bill


----------



## chrisc627

Are you kidding me- i dont even write LOL.


----------



## heatfreakk3

ok people sorry if i made you mad or made you hate me but i was not trying to give bad advice. all i was saying was that i have a citronella and a azureus together and they have been together for a while and they get along great. they dont fight or anything. i diddnt want to make anyone mad or anything, i just wanted to say that its not ALWAYS bad. sometimes they can get along...


----------



## markbudde

I don't like to get involved in these dogmatic arguments, however... Keeping darts requires you to be fairly attentive to how they are behaving. Introducing multiple species makes this difficult for a new keeper, because you don't have a reference point to compare to. For instance, if your frog is hiding all the time, is that normal behavior or not? Or how skinny is normal? These are things that you need to learn when keeping a new species, and you may not know that your frog is misbehaving until you find it dead. Keeping multiple species in the same tank makes this immensely difficult because the frogs might be exposed to behaviors/aggression that they would never normally be accustomed to. 

As far as hybridizing is concerned, I think that many species of dart cannot interbreed, and thus this may not be a problem. Similarly with parasites, proper quarantine should be able to minimize this problem.

Here is an example of a mixed species tank build by an experiences builder.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/26104-mixed-species-tank.html


----------



## heatfreakk3

my citronella and azureus are both well fed and neither is skinny. and both are always out. i dont think that they arent getting along. i think they get along good


----------



## markbudde

heatfreakk3 said:


> my citronella and azureus are both well fed and neither is skinny. and both are always out. i dont think that they arent getting along. i think they get along good


But those can hybridize, which would be bad.


----------



## heatfreakk3

yes i know that now. but they are still babies. well kind of haha... one is like a year and the other is like 8 months. but thats still not old enough to breed right


----------



## Mac

heatfreakk3 said:


> yes i know that now. but they are still babies. well kind of haha... one is like a year and the other is like 8 months. but thats still not old enough to breed right


haha? Why do I have a feeling that those frogs will never get separated? That's awful close to breeding age to be unsure of when they are adults, and can produce a hybrid...

It wont be so funny when you have little hybrid babies and you make a desperate post " What do I do now!" people wont be so hugs and kisses rushing to help you. 
Man I really hate these threads, some mod needs to end it here( after my ranting post) both of them have been given their dose of "mixing vaccine already.


----------



## heatfreakk3

dude whats your problem? you dont have to be rude like that


----------



## AlexRible

elmoisfive said:


> Life is too short to get worked up over words on the internet.
> 
> Bill



Very Well said bill

Ok I guess I will add my input now. This the very first question every person asks when the get in to the hobby.... I know that I did. The answer basically is that you can, but it doesn't mean you should! Personally IF YOU COULD find 4 males that don't fight then I wouldn't see a problem in keeping them in a 29 gallon tank. That is not easy, as most people sell unsexed froglets and by the time you figure out that you have two frogs that don't like each other it's too late. Either one kills the other or stresses the other out in till it gets stressed then sick and kills all your other frogs.

You must look at it from the frogs point of view. I forget who said it, but it was the best analogy for mixing that I ever heard. " imagine the most annoying person that you ever met, then imagine being locked in a small glass box with them for your whole life".

I guess what Im trying to say is that these are going to be your first frogs, you are going to be spending your money on them so why not do things right and give them the space that they need? You have two nice sized tanks and there are darts that would do well in groups of four such as D. leucomelas , D. galactonotus and P.terribilis just not together. I know it's not what you want to hear, but is the truth. It's just not a good idea.


----------



## Quaz

So my wifes' sitting here reading this thread and she's laughing and saying you guys sound like little teenage girls. HA HA HA


I'd have to agree.

I can't find what has been posted that is against the user agreement but I haven't memorized the whole thing yet. Still working on that.

As far as the zoo's go. i wouldn't put much stock in them caring if the frogs cross breed. 


And why should a MOD stop this thread. How are people going to learn if you you just stop this when people get worked up?


And somebody said that different species couldn't cross. Well so far I've heard of luec x azureus and auratus x azureus. 



Just a side note to make everyone think a little. Think about how many people in the US have dart frogs now. How many people have pairs. How many tad poles those pairs have (a lot)? and now think of how the hobby is compounding with new people getting into the hobby. I know that in Tulsa and the surrounding area alone I'm probably resonsible for dozens of people getting into the hobby. And also have two public displays. My point is... well I don't really know... I just think that in the future there will be the leopard gecko frankenfrog people. there will be the noobees. and there will be the flamers who so elequently fill this thread. The die hards who keep the species pure and fight for the cause. Just don't come to my house and light a hybrid frog ephigy in my lawn and raid my collection for the good of all frog kind. 

Sorry I'm getting tired and rambling.


----------



## basshummper

Quaz I think you are forgetting or have never realized the pride in which the people on this board have in being respectful in their advice and postings. This is for everyone now; this board is a more formal platform then most forums and that probably stems from all of the great minds that contribute to the board. Words and phrase like "you guys sound like little teenage girls" and "flamers" are things that I use in every day conversation with friends, but I would never insult the many faces on this board like this. The Dendroboard is not a chat room where we can throw around banter at the cost of others for our own amusement, and its evident that there is little tolerance for it.


----------



## Jellyman

Mixing frogs is perfectly fine. I currently have 4 azuras, 4 tincs, 4 green auratus, 4 black auratus, and 2 leuc's all living together. They share a vivarium that is 3'LX2'WX3'Tall. They have all been living together for the past 6 years and have no health issues. I feed them all dusted fruit flies, probably about 200 per day. I have not lost a frog yet except for one that ecscped somehow the first week I got them and became frog jerky on the floor.

I can understand the imbreeding issue but pretty much every animal that has entered the pet trade has been breed and cross breed for traits that make for more interesting or compatable animals. I am not interested in breeding mine. They are merely for my enjoyment but if the did breed and I had a new strain of frog I know they'd sell fast and for a good piece of change.

Go for it!!!!


----------



## Philsuma

Jellyman said:


> Mixing frogs is perfectly fine. I currently have 4 azuras, 4 tincs, 4 green auratus, 4 black auratus, and 2 leuc's all living together. They share a vivarium that is 3'LX2'WX3'Tall. They have all been living together for the past 6 years and have no health issues. I feed them all dusted fruit flies, probably about 200 per day. I have not lost a frog yet except for one that ecscped somehow the first week I got them and became frog jerky on the floor.
> 
> I can understand the imbreeding issue but pretty much every animal that has entered the pet trade has been breed and cross breed for traits that make for more interesting or compatable animals. I am not interested in breeding mine. They are merely for my enjoyment but if the did breed and I had a new strain of frog I know they'd sell fast and for a good piece of change.
> 
> Go for it!!!!


That just may be the single most uninformed, dangerous thing I have ever seen written. 

I almost can't believe someone wrote that on purpose or even believes it.


----------



## Jellyman

Philsuma said:


> That just may be the single most uninformed, dangerous thing I have ever seen written.
> 
> I almost can't believe someone wrote that on purpose or even believes it.


Because it is diferent from your opinion. This elitist mentality that frogs "should never be housed together" is ridiculous. Give it 10 more years and you will have designer frogs just as we do with geckos, fish, dogs, cats, etc......

I think the success of my frogs is proof that if you buy healthy frogs and provide a clean vivarium and quality food that the frogs will thrive and do well. Sure you could come across aggression but that routinely happens with like frogs and they need to be seperated. I know I got very lucky that all mine happened to be compatible, but that is why they were bought all at the same time when young and introduced within days of each other. 

It is pretty said that only one form of tought is able to be tolerated.


----------



## Philsuma

> Because it is diferent from your opinion. This elitist mentality that frogs "should never be housed together" is ridiculous. Give it 10 more years and you will have designer frogs just as we do with geckos, fish, dogs, cats, etc
> 
> 
> 
> _and the hits just keep on coming..._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the success of my frogs is proof that if you buy healthy frogs and provide a clean vivarium and quality food that the frogs will thrive and do well. Sure you could come across aggression but that routinely happens with like frogs and they need to be seperated.
> 
> 
> 
> _Can you describe this aggression stuff?....sounds like we should hear more about it, especially if you need to seperate the frogs._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know I got very lucky that all mine happened to be compatible, but that is why they were bought all at the same time when young and introduced within days of each other.
> 
> It is pretty said that only one form of tought is able to be tolerated.
> 
> 
> 
> What you do with your frogs is ultimately up to you, but whenever someone begins to post bad advice especially if it could cause a new person a setback or problem....then of course, there will be responses like mine. I cannot, in good conscience, allow post bad advice to go uncontested. I have seen first hand what happened to the Reptile industry with the designer Gecko morphs you like so much.
> 
> I guess I care too much about animals now, if that may be a flaw.
> 
> Where were you in the 1980's Jellyman?
> 
> Were you active in Herps?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Jellyman

It is only bad advice because it goes against what you beleive is "good" advice. You need to keep an open mind that your way is not the only right way and that othrs have experience that can be beneficial to this discussion. 

You noticed that the designer gecko industry is huge now?? Where did I say I liked Geckos anyway??

In the 80's I was catching bullfrogs, salamanders and painted turtles in upstate New York.


----------



## heatfreakk3

thank you jellyman. that is exactly what i was trying to say befor


----------



## xm41907

Jellyman said:


> Mixing frogs is perfectly fine. I currently have 4 azuras, 4 tincs, 4 green auratus, 4 black auratus, and 2 leuc's all living together. They share a vivarium that is 3'LX2'WX3'Tall. They have all been living together for the past 6 years and have no health issues. I feed them all dusted fruit flies, probably about 200 per day. I have not lost a frog yet except for one that ecscped somehow the first week I got them and became frog jerky on the floor.
> 
> I can understand the imbreeding issue but pretty much every animal that has entered the pet trade has been breed and cross breed for traits that make for more interesting or compatable animals. I am not interested in breeding mine. They are merely for my enjoyment but if the did breed and I had a new strain of frog I know they'd sell fast and for a good piece of change.
> 
> Go for it!!!!


Jellyman, you have 16 large adult frogs living in a roughly 135 gallon setup? Unless you are the ultimate frog keeper, I highly doubt you've had no problems over the last six years. At that size, these frogs would be walking all over each other. The fact that you have obviously overcrowded your frogs speaks for itself about what kind of frog keeper you are. let alone mixing all those species. 

Also, what do you mean by "4 green auratus, 4 black auratus" you have two different solid colored auratus morphs???


----------



## Jellyman

xm41907 said:


> Jellyman, you have 16 large adult frogs living in a roughly 135 gallon setup? Unless you are the ultimate frog keeper, I highly doubt you've had no problems over the last six years. At that size, these frogs would be walking all over each other. The fact that you have obviously overcrowded your frogs speaks for itself about what kind of frog keeper you are. let alone mixing all those species.
> 
> Also, what do you mean by "4 green auratus, 4 black auratus" you have two different solid colored auratus morphs???


Sorry they are not solid. I just figured with all the "experience" flying around here everyone would know what I was talking about:
4 green are metallic green with a little bit of black (panama strain)
4 balck are mostly black with some dark/dull green markings(hawaiian strain)

The only time they are walking all over each other are when it is feeding time. Other then that they are dispered allover the tank from top to bottom. I'll post some pics it is a very awesome setup. I'm kicking around breaking down my 270g reef tank and turning it into a vivarium so I can get some more frogs!!!


----------



## Philsuma

It's not just _my_ advice but don't just take my word for it of course. 

I would ask anyone wishing information on mixed species tanks to do a search and spend about an hour reading instead of just making a quick post asking for immediate info. I think you will find the concensus of the most sucessful breeders, hobbyists and even biologists cautioning AGAINST it.

Do you think mixed species tanks should be attempted by a new hobbyist or someone with limited time or income?

While you were catching Bullfrogs, Salamanders and Turtles....I was breeding some of the first _Hemitheconyx caudicinctus _in the US, _Phelsuma_ species and working with people using hormones to stimulate breeding of _Ceratophrys_ species.


----------



## Jellyman

Philsuma said:


> It's not just _my_ advice but don't just take my word for it of course.
> 
> I would ask anyone wishing information on mixed species tanks to do a search and spend about an hour reading instead of just making a quick post asking for immediate info. I think you will find the concensus of the most sucessful breeders, hobbyists and even biologists cautioning AGAINST it.
> 
> Do you think mixed species tanks should be attempted by a new hobbyist or someone with limited time or income?
> 
> While you were catching Bullfrogs, Salamanders and Turtles....I was breeding some of the first _Hemitheconyx caudicinctus _in the US, _Phelsuma_ species and working with people using hormones to stimulate breeding of _Ceratophrys_ species.


I agree that noone should jump into any animal hobby without doing the necessary research. The original post was doing just that. But I do disagree that seperation is the only method for keeping frogs. I also disagree with how opinions of others are thrown around as the bible of dart frog keeping. You are also right that the prevailing attitude is towards seperation. That does not mean it is right or wrong, just simply the main stream way of how the hobby is today. I'm also into reef tanks and for the longest time strict regiment of water changes was the only sure way to go. It has recently come to light that water changes are not necessary and almost of no use. This does not mean that what everyone was/is doing was/is wrong it just means there are other avenues to explore. I think one should have all the available information provided to them and then they can make their own decisions. 

Great job on breeding geckos. It probably helped promote some of the new strains that are now available. I breed Bangaii Cardinal fish and soon to be breeding Picasso Clown Fish. It's nice to now there are others that have experiencing breeding unique animals.


----------



## divingne1

Jellyman said:


> but if the did breed and I had a new strain of frog I know they'd sell fast and for a good piece of change.


I need a drink.
Candy


----------



## heatfreakk3

what? u need a drink? that was randome hahaa


----------



## divingne1

heatfreakk3 said:


> what? u need a drink? that was randome hahaa


Not random. The thought that someone would consider buying hybrid frogs for "a good piece of change" is entertaining. I would love to see a poll on how many dendroboard members would spend money on a hybrid frog.
Candy


----------



## sounddrive

> I need a drink.
> Candy


i don't think one is going to do how bout a bottle. its nice to see the efforts of science, hobbyist, the twi and asn being disregarded and cast aside. good thing its only a few and most would rather be responsible pet owners.


----------



## heatfreakk3

im not trying to be rude or anything. i was just wondering why a lot of you guys dont like hybrids? i mean i dont see the big deal, i think they would look kinda cool


----------



## divingne1

sounddrive said:


> i don't think one is going to do how bout a bottle. its nice to see the efforts of science, hobbyist, the twi and asn being disregarded and cast aside. good thing its only a few and most would rather be responsible pet owners.


I agree. If anyone has any respect for the hobby and they want a mixed species tank, at least they can be respectful and responsible enough to flush the eggs and not try to move these hybrids into the hobby because they think someone will pay a "good piece of change" for them. Greed is the downfall to many good things.
Candy


----------



## Philsuma

heatfreakk3 said:


> im not trying to be rude or anything. i was just wondering why a lot of you guys dont like hybrids? i mean i dont see the big deal, i think they would look kinda cool


 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/34061-designer-frogs.html

Many more threads just like this one....read....read.....did I mention, read.

I'm not trying to be funny here, but do you know how to use the search feature?


----------



## heatfreakk3

what if they wanted a hybrid for themself? just for a show frog for them that they dont sell and take care of. what would be a problem with that?


----------



## heatfreakk3

sldo yes i know how to use the search button but i diddnt think that a hybrid is really that bad


----------



## sounddrive

> I agree. If anyone has any respect for the hobby and they want a mixed species tank, at least they can be respectful and responsible enough to flush the eggs and not try to move these hybrids into the hobby because they think someone will pay a "good piece of change" for them. Greed is the downfall to many good things.
> Candy


one plus is any responsible hobbyist wouldn't show a bit of interest in a hybrid anyway. just sucks for the novice who gets suckered into purchasing them. then finds out what they have and are screwed. just gos to show you greed is definitely the biggest downfall to any hobby.
Poor frogs wish they had a choice and weren't driven by instinct to breed i bet if they could talk they would frown upon it too.


----------



## chrisc627

Boy, im really glad i started this thread. What it comes down to is everybodys opinion is different. If i wanted to breed specific paf's i would do so. I believe that that is the ultimate goal of this hobby. BUT- if i did house a couple of types in a tank and they did interbreed, whos to say what should happen to those offspring? Does everyone think that i should throw them away because they arent pruebreeds or should i enjoy the experience of it all. Everyone is not looking to become breeders and if someone did create hybrids, then they can do their thing and the purebred breeders can do theirs. Hitler wanted a pure race, look where that got him.( and by the way - thats sarcasm)


----------



## rjmarchisi

this thread has alot of applicable working links

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/35467-mixing-frogs.html

its the 4th post down by otis


----------



## jdart16

Creating hybrids are bad because under certain circumstances there is a chance it could make into the hobby even if by accident and muddy the "pure animals".

justin


----------



## heatfreakk3

im just askin, how would having a hybrid bother everything else?


----------



## divingne1

sounddrive said:


> Poor frogs wish they had a choice and weren't driven by instinct to breed i bet if they could talk they would frown upon it too.


The one case where racism wouldn't be so controversal. 
Mr. Azureus walks into a bar and sees a hot little cobalt standing in the corner. Mr. Azureus hops up to Miss Cobalt and says "hey pretty lady! How about you and I hop on over to my pad?" Miss Cobalt replies "No thanks, I'm not into blue"
Candy


----------



## vivariman

This hobby is becoming waaay to commercial. For those of you that suggest that hybrid frogs could fetch you in some money.... its the little money grubbers that have pretty much trashed the wildlife of the earth. For those of you that are all "woah! cool! custom frogs!", go to a craft store, buy a ceramic frog, get some paint, paint it. There you go. No maintanence, and its cheap. And really heatfreak I don't really understand your logic.... they want more frogs but are short on money? If they are short on money.... they shouldn't get more frogs. You are treating them like possessions, like the more species you have the better your collection is. Whats so much better about a tank that has a leuc, an auratus, an azureus, and a tinc than a tank that has 4 leucs? I don't get it really.


----------



## heatfreakk3

dude thats not what im saying. just never mind, thats not what i was talking about either but whatever


----------



## Philsuma

I think the reason some of us are so vocal and rabid about the topic of "designer" frogs, Hybridization and mixed species is because we are all on the front lines of a uniquely American obsession:

The....I "cannot have enough" syndrome.

Followed closely by the "I can do whatever I want- don't tell me what I can or can't do" mania.

I am going to go out on a limb here and venture a quess that there is nothing near the level of this problem in Europe, UK or anywhere else and I hope and pray that I'm right.


----------



## Jellyman

sounddrive said:


> one plus is any responsible hobbyist wouldn't show a bit of interest in a hybrid anyway. just sucks for the novice who gets suckered into purchasing them. then finds out what they have and are screwed. just gos to show you greed is definitely the biggest downfall to any hobby.
> Poor frogs wish they had a choice and weren't driven by instinct to breed i bet if they could talk they would frown upon it too.


Poor frogs??? Are you planning a trip to release them into the habitat of their home country?? Probably not. If they could talk they'd probably ask, "Is this it. I thought rain forest were much bigger?" You act like you are doing them some kind of favor by keeping them in a tank. I'm not bashing you for keeping frogs because I do as well but get real. We keep them as posessions, as novelties. Yes, there are some that have more into it then that but you are the minority. You cannot sit on both sides of the fence, pick one.


----------



## Philsuma

Jellyman said:


> We keep them as posessions, as novelties. Yes, there are some that have more into it then that but you are the minority.


 
I'm at such a loss.....this is just incredulous. To read a post like this, is to sustain such damage to logic and reason.

My head actually hurts from this...its actually THAT bad.

I am SO pro free-speech but several posters on this thread should really be censored.


----------



## ChrisK

OK well forgetting about the breeding aspect for a second, i'm pretty sure most people would agree that mixed tanks would probably work out better with people who are really experienced with keeping poison frogs because they know their frogs and what they're looking at, unusual changes in a frog's habits, more hiding/less feeding etc, so if someone is really intent on creating a mixed tank, why don't you wait until you're really familiar with your breeds' normal behavior before bothering to add an extra stress factor into them by forcing them together with possible unwanted company? take about a year of checking out their normal routine separate from other breeds so you know what you're looking at first, you probably wouldn't want to add another possibly extreme danger factor to keeping them alive with all that you already need to worry about as it is when you start caring for them


----------



## sounddrive

> Poor frogs??? Are you planning a trip to release them into the habitat of their home country?? Probably not. If they could talk they'd probably ask, "Is this it. I thought rain forest were much bigger?" You act like you are doing them some kind of favor by keeping them in a tank. I'm not bashing you for keeping frogs because I do as well but get real. We keep them as possessions, as novelties. Yes, there are some that have more into it then that but you are the minority. You cannot sit on both sides of the fence, pick one.


who know a few years down the road if a species becomes extinct it would be nice to be able to make an attempt to repopulate. but with pure frogs not releasing a bunch of mutts. keeping and breeding them isn't all about the possession, conservation is allot. i could keep as many as i want without breeding but that don't help wild populations. its nice to be able to have , observe and enjoy these animals in captivity as well as the wild. by breeding pure frogs in the hobby this helps minimize the amount of wild harvest, at least thats the plan anyway. a bunch of mutt frogs isn't going to do this. thats just going to cause people to search even harder to find the real thing. so i am on one side of the fence get your facts strait before you make accusations. we are not all in this for money sometimes there is a bigger picture to look at.


----------



## vivariman

I totally and fully agree with what Philsuma just said. Decent frog keepers don't keep frogs to increase their level of "possessions". They enjoy the frogkeeping hobby and wish to sustain captive populations of them. 
Some people are treating these frogs like Pokemon cards though.... They feel the need to have every single one in a short time and in doing so impede the health of the frogs themselves. 

I have auratus, leucs, and imitators, so that means my collection is better than his...

Sheesh... 

What has America come to?

Edit: Looks like chris and sounddrive beat me! This is the most active thread I have seen in a long time.


----------



## Kevin1234

I really didn't want to join in on this thread...but it is rather entertaining. If someone wishes to make a hybrid.....no one can stop them its their frogs and their choice. We can give people as much info as we can. But in the end its their choice. Im just kinda sick of it really and how people get so worked up about it. I also don't like the bashing and how mad people get. In the end as long as they aren't sold it shouldn't matter. Majority of people who raise frogs aren't going to be releasing them back into the wild......if your coming from the conservation side of it. 

just my 2 cents

Kevin


----------



## jdart16

That would be nice _if_ we knew they wouldn't be sold.

By creating hybrids you increase the chance of them being sold or accidently or intentionally being released to the public.

Without hybrids there is no risk of that so why not save the trouble and not create them in the first place?

Justin


----------



## heatfreakk3

im just wondering why would selling hybrids be bad? and would they also be bad for just keeping?


----------



## jdart16

Could you please specify for your question a little more? then maybe we could help with your answer.

Reasons seem to be 
-newcomers not knowing what they get
-muddying of pure breeds
-if there ever was a reintroduction it would require pure animals so any hybrids are just taking away from the pure stock

justin


----------



## heatfreakk3

oh i see, okay


----------



## vivariman

Like justin just said. *We can't make sure they are not sold, released into the hobby and then interbred with other species. When/if they all die off in the wild, we would not have ANY pure frogs of a species or in extreme hybridization any species at all.* 

But as for the the original question, you make it seem like since you are short on money and want more frogs, you would mix them in a small tank. Why don't you just get 2 groups of 4 of different species of frog and don't mix them? It would be just as fun without all of this conflict. 

And here's a quote that I am totally stealing from somebodies signature...
"Instead of keeping more species, why not do more with the species that you keep?"

And Heatfreak, trust me... you are not the only one in this hobby that doesn't have a job or much money.... trust me.....

Caden

Edit: I must have grandpa fingers or something else that impedes my typing speed... I keep getting beat......


----------



## Jellyman

I do not see it to be any of our business if someone sells a hybrid frog that they breed. They own the frog and the right to do with it as they wish. Just as breeders of pure breed frogs do. I'd never pay alot for one but if they were reasonably priced I sure would. If the pire breed breeders are worried about bloodlines simply start a dart frog bloodline bank like zoos have done with tigers and lions. That way newbies will have the clear option from buying from a "pure" breeder, a "hybrid" breeder, or just someone out of their basement.


----------



## heatfreakk3

okay thanks man. its nice to have nice people on here to help you. i dont want to get a whole lot of different species. i just want the ones i have now and maybe a bumble bee one and maybe a aratus one but thats it. and i am not getting either of those untill i get another tank and stuff


----------



## heatfreakk3

and the post i did was for vivariman


----------



## sounddrive

> okay thanks man. its nice to have nice people on here to help you. i dont want to get a whole lot of different species. i just want the ones i have now and maybe a bumble bee one and maybe a aratus one but thats it. and i am not getting either of those untill i get another tank and stuff


well im am glad to see someone not to stubborn to learn. and willing to walk away from this a little better educated and a sense of where everyone is coming from.


----------



## heatfreakk3

yeah i guess so


----------



## sounddrive

> I do not see it to be any of our business if someone sells a hybrid frog that they breed. They own the frog and the right to do with it as they wish. Just as breeders of pure breed frogs do. I'd never pay alot for one but if they were reasonably priced I sure would. If the pire breed breeders are worried about bloodlines simply start a dart frog bloodline bank like zoos have done with tigers and lions. That way newbies will have the clear option from buying from a "pure" breeder, a "hybrid" breeder, or just someone out of their basement.


by posting on this board you are making it everyones business. the purpose of this site is information what you do with it is up to you. as for a bloodline bank well it shouldn't have to come to that. a little common sense go a long way, it a shame there is such a shortage of it out there.


----------



## vivariman

What would be the point of a hybrid frog? There are certainly quite enough different color variations of the frogs we have now.


----------



## Jellyman

vivariman said:


> What would be the point of a hybrid frog? There are certainly quite enough different color variations of the frogs we have now.


The uniqueness. I have an albino redtail boa. I like it alot because it is not the run of the mill redtail boa. I also have a pair of snowflake clownfish. There are only a couple hundred of these. I enjoy the oddity of them both.


----------



## carbonetc

expert = person who sounds smart and agrees with me
good advice = advice I want to hear

Another victory for post-modernism.


----------



## xm41907

Jellyman said:


> The uniqueness. I have an albino redtail boa. I like it alot because it is not the run of the mill redtail boa. I also have a pair of snowflake clownfish. There are only a couple hundred of these. I enjoy the oddity of them both.


dart frogs in general are unique pets. If you want to be different from the common dart frogger ( would that be an oxymoron?) then look into some of the more obscure species. In some discussions I've had before regarding mixed breeding the comparison of dog breeds has come up. If your thinking about frogs in the same way as dogs when it comes to pure breeds, then you have it backwards. With dogs, humans have selectively breed them to produce the desired traits. There is no wild type of poodle vs a wild type of chihuahua. They come from common wild animals. With frogs, we as a hobby want to preserve the "uniqueness" of each species. Frogs are highly vulnerable to environmental conditions and wild populations are endangered. If a particular area of the rainforest is destroyed then a species could be lost in the wild. Now if hybridization became popular in the hobby, we could lose that species forever. All we would be left with is essentially "mutt" frogs. 

Nobody can force you to follow good frog keeping practices to keep the frogs you have control over from hybridizing, however me and nearly everyone on this board would implore you too keep them to yourself. Don't go around trying to sell something as cool and unique just be cause it is a mix of two species. If your opinion doesn't agree with the majority on here, thats fine, but please respect the fact that this board si frequently visited by people with little to no experience with frogs. We don't need more people using poor practices that might introduce the wrong kind of person to want a frog. Nobody should take the responsibility of caring for frogs just because they are different. If this was to become the norm, then you'd start seeing them pop up at every petsmart and petco across the country. How unique would your frogs be then?


----------



## Jellyman

xm41907 said:


> dart frogs in general are unique pets. If you want to be different from the common dart frogger ( would that be an oxymoron?) then look into some of the more obscure species. In some discussions I've had before regarding mixed breeding the comparison of dog breeds has come up. If your thinking about frogs in the same way as dogs when it comes to pure breeds, then you have it backwards. With dogs, humans have selectively breed them to produce the desired traits. There is no wild type of poodle vs a wild type of chihuahua. They come from common wild animals. With frogs, we as a hobby want to preserve the "uniqueness" of each species. Frogs are highly vulnerable to environmental conditions and wild populations are endangered. If a particular area of the rainforest is destroyed then a species could be lost in the wild. Now if hybridization became popular in the hobby, we could lose that species forever. All we would be left with is essentially "mutt" frogs.
> 
> Nobody can force you to follow good frog keeping practices to keep the frogs you have control over from hybridizing, however me and nearly everyone on this board would implore you too keep them to yourself. Don't go around trying to sell something as cool and unique just be cause it is a mix of two species. If your opinion doesn't agree with the majority on here, thats fine, but please respect the fact that this board si frequently visited by people with little to no experience with frogs. We don't need more people using poor practices that might introduce the wrong kind of person to want a frog. Nobody should take the responsibility of caring for frogs just because they are different. If this was to become the norm, then you'd start seeing them pop up at every petsmart and petco across the country. How unique would your frogs be then?


-I do not breed frogs and have never really had the desire to do so. This is purely for personal enjoyment for me and my family. The enjoyment is actually in creating the habitat and watching the frogs interact with it and each other.

-If by chance they did breed I would definitely sell them to the highest bidder simply because it would not make any sense for my family not to profit from someone willing to pay for them and I certainly would not kill them just because they are different!!! If the pure bred breeders were not interested in profits they would be giving the frogs away at cost or donating them back to the wild.

-Your notion of "poor practices" is a "poor" opinion. My frogs are as healty, probably healthier, then most frogs being kept. The average person, and especially newbies, should have information available to them as to how best to set up a vivarium that houses multiple types of frogs as well as setting up species only tanks. It is also good to mention that not everyone agrees with hybridization of frogs. Then the beginner can choose to mix or keep seperated species and choose to let them breed or not. 

-The majority of people that own any pet, including frogs, is a novelty for personal pleasure and enjoyment. They are kept for the pure enjoyment of that particular animal. It is the minority that actually owns and maintains them for "the protection and survival of the species." How many poeple really keep dart frogs because someday they may go extinct and I'll be the one who brings them back????

-At least in the midwest the local non chain LFS are all starting to carry locally bred dart frogs, red eye tree frogs, and mantellas. Do to them being "poisonus" I do not foresee them showing up in chain pet shops anytime soon.

-I think it is very noble of someone to walk the line and preach "pure bred" but I do not feel it should be at the expense of limiting information that will help someone maintain a mixed enclosure.


----------



## iridebmx

heatfreakk3 said:


> yes i know that now. but they are still babies. well kind of haha... one is like a year and the other is like 8 months. but thats still not old enough to breed right





heatfreakk3 said:


> my citronella and azureus are both well fed and neither is skinny. and both are always out. i dont think that they arent getting along. i think they get along good





heatfreakk3 said:


> have different species doesnt make your frogs have health problems. and this is an expencive hobby and you can have money but after a couple of frogs you can be out. not everyone has a job and stuff to get a bunch of money all the time





heatfreakk3 said:


> well why not mixing species? if he keeps the same frog in each tank he will have to pay a lot more for more tanks and plants and stuff. different species can live together if they are babies and maybe when they are adults. who cares if some people dont like it. its not their frogs





heatfreakk3 said:


> im not saying you should mix species. im just saying if you new and dont have a lot of money you can mix some species together while they are still young./ if your new you dont want to be spending tons of money yet



sorry, but it sure seems that you want to inter breed here!http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/35751-age.html
these are the same frogs in your discription right?this could be why everyone is "being rude" man









heatfreakk3 said:


> umm azureus





heatfreakk3 said:


> i have 2 frogs in a tank right now and im pretty sure one is about a year and the other is probably around 8 months. wouls they be possibly wanting to breed anytime soon? and should i put a petri dish or lid under their coco hut for them to do it?





heatfreakk3 said:


> im actualy not sure if they are male or female, how can i tell? i forgot





heatfreakk3 said:


> okay here is a picture of one of my azureus right now. Also i have citronellas in another tank and this citronella is also about a year and i was wondering if it is a male or female


----------



## xm41907

Jellyman said:


> They are merely for my enjoyment but if the did breed and I had a new strain of frog I know they'd sell fast and for a good piece of change.


 A responsible breeder would understand the interests of the hobby and not simply oneself. Regardless of how you feel, you are a member of a community of frog owners, and with that comes the responsibility of respecting that communities ethics. The vast majority of frog owners follow what is in the best interests of the hobby. If you choose to follow a different path, that is by all means your choice to do so. However, understand that if you voice your opinions and choices in a public forum, then understand that it is our right to respond back. From this thread as well as the many others that have been posted, it is plain to see that your opinion does not follow the majority. 



Jellyman said:


> This elitist mentality that frogs "should never be housed together" is ridiculous. Give it 10 more years and you will have designer frogs just as we do with geckos, fish, dogs, cats, etc......


It is not an elitist mentality to want to preserve the biological diversity we have. 



Jellyman said:


> It is only bad advice because it goes against what you beleive is "good" advice. You need to keep an open mind that your way is not the only right way and that othrs have experience that can be beneficial to this discussion.


This is true, but keep in mind that not everyone has experience. If you make it sound like mixing species is easy and that there are no issues with doing so, then more noobs may attempt to mix. Without proper knowledge and experience, then its a distinct possibility that these attempts will fail, resulting in stressed frogs and possible death.



Jellyman said:


> You are also right that the prevailing attitude is towards separation. That does not mean it is right or wrong, just simply the main stream way of how the hobby is today. I'm also into reef tanks and for the longest time strict regiment of water changes was the only sure way to go.


Again, I agree with you that consensus might change over time. However, as it stands, the consensus is generally against mixing. There are exceptions. There have been oldtimers that have posted mixed tanks and have not received deathblows from the community. Beginners that ask are quickly lead towards separation. This is because in most instances, they lack the knowledge and experience to pull it off. 



Jellyman said:


> We keep them as posessions, as novelties. Yes, there are some that have more into it then that but you are the minority.


I disagree with this. The majority of people that frequent this board do not keep frogs for the novelty of it. If you truly believe this, than do a more thorough search. In depth discussions abound throughout this forum on many topics related to dart frogs. The majority have a vested interest in the frog species and hobby as a whole, not just the particular frogs they themselves own.



Jellyman said:


> I do not see it to be any of our business if someone sells a hybrid frog that they breed. They own the frog and the right to do with it as they wish. Just as breeders of pure breed frogs do.


It is our business if the sell of that frog affects the industry. Just as in any industry, there are some poor pure breed breeders that you should stay away from. Incidentally, these are generally going to be of the mindset that dart frogs are novelty.


----------



## sounddrive

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Jellyman*  
_We keep them as posessions, as novelties. Yes, there are some that have more into it then that but you are the minority._



> I disagree with this. The majority of people that frequent this board do not keep frogs for the novelty of it. If you truly believe this, than do a more thorough search. In depth discussions abound throughout this forum on many topics related to dart frogs. The majority have a vested interest in the frog species and hobby as a whole, not just the particular frogs they themselves own.


 
well said


----------



## zBrinks

Jellyman,

With that many frogs, sexually mature, in such a large vivarium, any idea why none have bred after six years? With 18 frogs, all from the "tinc complex" that could potentially interbreed, that chances of them all being the same sex is pretty slim. Any chance of pics? Sounds like a very visually interesting set up.


===================================================================


Mixing is a choice that is ultimately up to the individual (thank our country for that). Please do the necessary research and do not rely only on advice posted from one particular individual (and by that statement, I'm referring to *any* poster on this board).
Like many things in life, this hobby is something many are very passionate about. We all just need to insure that passion does not infringe on common decency. 

*off the soapbox*


----------



## Philsuma

> Mixing is a choice that is ultimately up to the individual (thank our country for that). Please do the necessary research and do not rely only on advice posted from one particular individual (and by that statement, I'm referring to *any* poster on this board).
> Like many things in life, this hobby is something many are very passionate about. We all just need to insure that passion does not infringe on common decency.


I haven't seen anything indecent in this entire thread.

This topic is one of the most important issues that we can consider as evidenced by the replies and views. It may seem tedious as it comes up somewhat often, but it does need to be vigorously debated...it is just that important. Much more important than a scrap over expired vitamins or FF media construction. 

It can seem ugly or unnecessary to some but if a strong argument is not made, the results will be far reaching over time.


----------



## susan_heydler

We have one 80 gallon tank with three azureus and what started off as a pair of lamasii. We have no fights, and the lamasii are breeding very happily (three froglets and at least three tads). Our other tank is about 40 gallons with now 4 D. imitator v. intermedius. These guys are aggressive, and do fight amongst themselves. There were no fights when it was just the male and his two ladies, but with the son, fights are happening, so it's probably a bit crowded. 

You're getting lots of great advice here, and a lot depends on the species you're keeping. There do seem to be some purists who advise against mixing. Honestly, when we re-do our tanks in the next few months, we will be separating out all the species. But if you do want to mix, I would say bigger is better. Things are definitely happier in our larger tank.


----------



## Quaz

What is it with people saying the hobby has interests and the hobby dissagrees?

And what has been said that needs to be censered?

This is a very healthy debate. If you feel secure in your stance then post the reason. It doesn't mean that you need to convince other people that they shouldn't care for their animals the same way you do.

I know that I have at least helped 4 people and 2 public facilities aquire mixed species tanks. I have one which is a 144gal tank with two green auratus, three luecs, and an azureus. They are all a little over a year old and have grown up together. I've never had any problems. 

Another tank is a 120 DAS reef convert. It has an acon hill auratus, turqouise auratus, a luec, three azureus, and a cobalt tinc. The auratus are farm raised in panama, who knows what age. The azureus were bred by me from Tulsa zoo stock which came from the baltimore aquarium which was direct from brazil. The Cobalt Tincs. were from the Tulsa zoo too. The Tincs/ azureus are about 19mo old. The Luec. is from black jungle and is about 20 months old. They all get along fine and have never had a problem.

It's interesting in the Tulsa zoo exhibit which is as big as a small living room housing luecs, grn n blk auratus, and azureus. The frogs seem to hang with like species and there has never been any report of crossing. The care taker thinks that cockroaches eat the eggs though.

And about the reason people get into this hobby. I think you're fooling yourself if you think the vast majority don't get frogs because the look neat, the vivariums are beautiful, the frogs are diurnal unlike other reptiles and amphibians, they are easy to feed (no buying crickets on your way home from work), They have really cool husbandry and courtship behavior.

I've written enough for now... I hate reading long posts myself.


----------



## Quaz

Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide

look at these frogs. You've got to be kidding me to say that they aren't cross breeding everyday.

Yeah, some are completely isolated but there are many that naturally cross paths and what about humans carrying one miles from one forest to another. give me a break man. 
It seems more natural to cross morphs.

Why don't I hear all the hollar about line breeds like chocolate luecs, fine spot azureus, no dot citronellas and what ever else is already being selectively bred with full exception. 

Get off your high horse people.


----------



## jdart16

Just a suggestion but maybe because these animals (chocolate leucs, fine spot azureus ect) are bred for a naturally occuring trait rather than taking two seperate morphs that were shipped in as seperate morphs and deliberately combining them to produce a "new" morph.

By selectively breeding they are still pure but just bred for certain traits rather than breeding seperate morphs together so they are no longer a "pure" morph.

Also not every population is connected so although they are all tincs one population might be several populations away from another so they would never naturally come in contact.

Hope that made sence, Justin


----------



## iridebmx

iridebmx said:


> sorry, but it sure seems that you want to inter breed here!http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/35751-age.html
> these are the same frogs in your discription right?this could be why everyone is "being rude" man



i forgot this one




heatfreakk3 said:


> ok people sorry if i made you mad or made you hate me but i was not trying to give bad advice. all i was saying was that i have a citronella and a azureus together and they have been together for a while and they get along great. they dont fight or anything. i diddnt want to make anyone mad or anything, i just wanted to say that its not ALWAYS bad. sometimes they can get along...


----------



## ChrisK

Well i already said what i think about housing different types of frog together, interbreeding and selling them could totally ruin the captive bred business - for example you might only be able to get CB "tincs" instead of citronella or cobalt, because they were interbred so much that pure hobbyists wouldn't believe that a morph actually is that morph just because it looks like it, so the hobbyist would then only go for the imported frog. Just look at the discussion that went on about the integrity of pumilio morphs, and the discussion was actually about IMPORTED frogs! http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/35380-fr-pumilio-question.html


----------



## Mac

Quaz said:


> Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide
> 
> look at these frogs. You've got to be kidding me to say that they aren't cross breeding everyday.
> 
> Yeah, some are completely isolated but there are many that naturally cross paths and what about humans carrying one miles from one forest to another. give me a break man.
> It seems more natural to cross morphs.
> 
> Why don't I hear all the hollar about line breeds like chocolate luecs, fine spot azureus, no dot citronellas and what ever else is already being selectively bred with full exception.
> 
> Get off your high horse people.


Buddy for the last few posts YOU are the only one riding your little stalion, the reason say that is so this doesnt go back to a screaming match, go ahead use exlamation, all caps but dont torch people with taunts that are infuriating. Im not a mod but we can all correct eachother now and then

I disagree that these frogs are breeding everyday. I am sure they occasionally cross in the wild, and there are mutts out there, but to say that it is more NATURAL to cross them is just bogus. The difference is in the separation; think about it here in our hobby we like to think of 100 gallons "ohh how big" BS frogs talk in FEET even MILES of separation. Think about how big a distance even one circular mile is for a frog. Even 10 square feet, heck some dont move much at all, they stick with a tree, it has food, cover... why move...

And realize these are not all just breeding with eachother, at one point they mostlikely did( correct me if I am wrong) but I will ASUME that there is a thing called locality and evolution, and each frog has been in its region for a long time now. 

Look at each of these names and tell that they are all the same...WRONG
notice how their name specifies their region, as I said even down to a square mile...

1.Regina'
2.'Nouragues'
3.East part of French Guiana. 
Surrounding of Mont Bruyere
4.Oyapock
5.Mont Matoury /
6.Saül'.
7.La Fumeé'.
8.Atachi Bakka'.

etc...

please correct me if I am wrong( what debates/discussions are for), I dont have cold hard facts, only MY logic to back it up, and some reading.


----------



## iridebmx

this is what popped out to me......dont buy this frog

Colourmorph 24. 
Name. tinctorius.
'Amotopo'.
Country: Doesn't exist.
Photo: Taken in terrarium
Reliability: Not a real morph.
Locality & info: Most probably a crossbreed morph that was created some years ago. Azureus x Regina. Please don't buy this morph, there are enough nice real morphs. With buying and breeding this morph you create confusing between morphs.Photo by © P. Bartelds & G. Benaets.


----------



## Mac

iridebmx said:


> this is what popped out to me......dont buy this frog
> 
> Colourmorph 24.
> Name. tinctorius.
> 'Amotopo'.
> Country: Doesn't exist.
> Photo: Taken in terrarium
> Reliability: Not a real morph.
> Locality & info: Most probably a crossbreed morph that was created some years ago. Azureus x Regina. Please don't buy this morph, there are enough nice real morphs. With buying and breeding this morph you create confusing between morphs.Photo by © P. Bartelds & G. Benaets.


thank you for pointing that out, as I said I AM SURE THERE ARE MUTTS OUT THERE but the majority are real disticnt morphs and dont cross regularly, or just plain dont cross breed naturally.
Just so where clear:
BMX I am in no way disagreeing with you only supporting ( I think) your observation.


----------



## Jellyman

I have just spent the last hour rereading all the post and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the posters are not opposed to mixed tank. (only so slightly and due to the number of recent new posters) Saying that, there are diffferent degrees of the acceptability of having a mixed tank: 
1. A few of those posters have no issue with mixed tanks as long as the research is done prior to setting one up or if the collector is experienced
2. A few feels it is ONLY for experienced hobbiest
3. Most feel as long as they are not producing offspring and the reserch has been done or you are experienced
4. A few have no ill feeling for hybrids within the mixed tanks

The discussion started out about mixed tanks and turned into a debate over hybrids. There are great points from both sides. Please take the time to read this thread and with an open non bias mind come to your own conclusion. 

Alot of what I have read tries to tie the term "majority" to only those that frequent this forum. My observations and comments are based on a wider selection of individuals from multiple forums that deal with herps and amphinians.

I doubled checked on how long I have had these frogs: leucs are 6 years old, all the rest are 4 1/2 years old. Here are a few pics of my mixed tanks. Ijust bought a new camera so I'll try to get some more recent ones in the next few days.


----------



## Jayson745

I haven't been around as long as most, but sense I read this whole thread I feel the need to add my opinion. 

I dont see any problem with mixing as long as the person is willing to spend enough time observing to make sure things are going ok. I dont mix and have no intention of ever doing it, but dont think people should be told no the way they are sometimes. Its obvious that it can and will be done whether people like it or not.

as far as hybrids go, I think this is one of the few animals where the new hybrid will not be worth more than the original wild type animals. mabey at first, but once the few people who like the hybrids get theres the market will quickly flood and they will be worth little more than a firebelly toad. I think the fact that most people want the real deal will keep the designer crap from ever becoming a large problem with darts. It might even be a good thing in the sense that a new person could buy a hybrid for really cheap, then end up on this forum, where they will get more into the hobby, eventually obtaining "true" species.

and lets not kid ourselves, theres never going to be reintroductions to the wild from private collections. Even if by some miracle the problems that made them go extinct were fixed.


----------



## Philsuma

I have just spent the last hour rereading all the post and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the posters are not opposed to mixed tank. (only so slightly and due to the number of recent new posters) 

_You are wrong with your numbers.This thread displayed only 3 people pro-mixing and 25 against mixing, with possibly 3 people giving a neutral opinion. You will find, should you search older threads, an even more disparate number in favor of NON mixing. This thread was actually pretty low attended by past board examples._

Alot of what I have read tries to tie the term "majority" to only those that frequent this forum. My observations and comments are based on a wider selection of individuals from multiple forums that deal with herps and amphinians.

_What other boards and forums are you refering to? Multiple forums? I doubt it.List them._

_Have you ever found eggs in your viv?_

_I think you have too many frogs for the foot print size of that tank._

_You have absolutely no terracing, what looks like no terrain on the back or any sides._

_I think you have a lack of hides and retreats. You have no leaf litter._

_You have some of the more aggresive Tinc type frogs that display well documented aggression when kept in large groups._

_I think you have seen aggression, domination and food aquisition problems and are chosing not to report it which is very bad form for new people reading this thread._

_I don't believe that is a 6 year old tank. The plant growth doesn't support that. Now we are going to hear how they were in another tank ect ect..._

_Remember...YOU posted it....we get to comment._


----------



## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> _I think you have too many frogs for the foot print size of that tank._


yeah i was gonna say that too - it's a really nice tank with great looking frogs but it looks a little crowded, like something you might see at a reptile show or pet shop. i'm not too experienced with non egg-feeding poison frogs but more personal space for frogs falls under the category of "can't hurt, could definitely help"


----------



## Jellyman

Philsuma said:


> I have just spent the last hour rereading all the post and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the posters are not opposed to mixed tank. (only so slightly and due to the number of recent new posters)
> 
> _You are wrong with your numbers.This thread displayed only 3 people pro-mixing and 25 against mixing, with possibly 3 people giving a neutral opinion. You will find, should you search older threads, an even more disparate number in favor of NON mixing. This thread was actually pretty low attended by past board examples._
> 
> Alot of what I have read tries to tie the term "majority" to only those that frequent this forum. My observations and comments are based on a wider selection of individuals from multiple forums that deal with herps and amphinians.
> 
> _What other boards and forums are you refering to? Multiple forums? I doubt it.List them._
> 
> _Have you ever found eggs in your viv?_
> 
> _I think you have too many frogs for the foot print size of that tank._
> 
> _You have absolutely no terracing, what looks like no terrain on the back or any sides._
> 
> _I think you have a lack of hides and retreats. You have no leaf litter._
> 
> _You have some of the more aggresive Tinc type frogs that display well documented aggression when kept in large groups._
> 
> _I think you have seen aggression, domination and food aquisition problems and are chosing not to report it which is very bad form for new people reading this thread._
> 
> _I don't believe that is a 6 year old tank. The plant growth doesn't support that. Now we are going to hear how they were in another tank ect ect..._
> 
> _Remember...YOU posted it....we get to comment._


You seriously do not have an objective opinion or ability to discuss topics that you disagree with. If you actually read the posts the majority of the post state that the reason they do not agree with mixing is due to the possibility of cross breeding but that with proper research and experience mixed enclosures are very possible. I will list in detail for you by poster name their exact qoutes as to show how badly you misinterpret peoples statements. You have turned the question as to whether housing mixed frogs is plausible into a debate about cross breeding and that is not what this is about. The question asked is it possible to have a mixed vivarium and the answer is overwhelmingly yes.

I keep my vivarium trimmed back because I do not like the look of overgrown enclosures. As I stated I'll post some more recent pics in the next few days. Those pictures are almost a year old and I have probably cut back the plantings several times since then. The two leucs were housed in a 55 gallon terrarium prior to me building the current vivarium. All the other frogs were added to the new vivarium within 2 weeks of each other. So to answer your question the only two frogs that lived in a different vivarium were the leucs. I also corrected myself and stated that the leucs are approx 6 years old and all the other frogs are approx 4 1/2 years old(that is how long the new vivarium has been set up).

I have never seen them carrying or laying tadpoles/eggs. I've seen some gooey blobs on the substrate that could possibly have been but I could not be sure. 

You are correct that I do no have any terracing on the sides of the tank. That was designed so the tank could be viewed from all three sides. The back of the tank has landscaping that goes 1/3 to 1/2 of the way up and then plantings that are almost completely covering the back. The frogs are able to go from top to bottom of the vivarium. I also hate leaf liter and find that it simply makes the tank look cluttered. I use orchid bark and have used it since I started keeping dart frogs. Your opinion on the footprint of the tank is worth about as worthless and uninformd as the rest of your statements. I seriously have no aggression issues within the vivarium. I feed them daily and simply scatter the fruit flies throughout the tank. Surprisingly enough, even though the flies are scattered, the majority of the frogs tend to eat in the same general area and move around together.


----------



## Jellyman

Philsuma said:


> I have just spent the last hour rereading all the post and have come to the conclusion that the majority of the posters are not opposed to mixed tank. (only so slightly and due to the number of recent new posters)
> 
> _You are wrong with your numbers.This thread displayed only 3 people pro-mixing and 25 against mixing, with possibly 3 people giving a neutral opinion. You will find, should you search older threads, an even more disparate number in favor of NON mixing. This thread was actually pretty low attended by past board examples._


_

Try reading just page 11. There are 3 people alone on page 11 that agree that mixed vivarium are plausable(again we are not talking about the cross breeding issue). Your opinion is obviously blurred by the inability to reason that there is more then just the way you think things should be done. I think you have a valid stance on cross breeding and that you have every right to express that view but to flat out lie about the plausability of keeping mixed species together successfully ruins your credibility. I do not plan on debating this with you any further. You have proven that you are not capable of reasoning._


----------



## housevibe7

I just had to add my two cents in here, and then I will be done  I think with A LOT of experience and research that mixing can be done. THat being said, in my mind mixing is not 4 different species, with a total of 16-20 frogs in a 100 gallon tank. In my mind mixing might be 2 species, one pair of each in a 100gallon+ tank. That's just me though.

I think one reason that so many people have a problem with the whole hybrid thing, conservation aside, is that most want to know without a doubt what they are getting.
I can't even count how many times someone has posted "I bought this as a such and such" and it turned out to either be not that frog or a hybrid. So this person who thought they were getting a Citronella but ended up with a Regina X Citronella is mighty disappointed that they just spent 50-75 bucks for something they didn't want. So if "you" want to breed and sell hybrids, no one can stop you. PLEASE, please though, be upfront and honest about what they are, and when you can't sell them to anyone but the newbies who don't know any better, don't say they are citronellas just to get them sold. It's THAT dishonesty which will be the downfall of this hobby. Not everyone wants another reptile hobby, which is what it will turn into if this becomes widespread.


----------



## iridebmx

looks like jellymans in a "jam" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


sorry i had to say it hehehehehehe!


----------



## Philsuma

Jellyman said:


> Try reading just page 11. There are 3 people alone on page 11 that agree that mixed vivarium are plausable(again we are not talking about the cross breeding issue). Your opinion is obviously blurred by the inability to reason that there is more then just the way you think things should be done. I think you have a valid stance on cross breeding and that you have every right to express that view but to flat out lie about the plausability of keeping mixed species together successfully ruins your credibility. I do not plan on debating this with you any further. You have proven that you are not capable of reasoning.


I can acknowledge the end of a debate as well. You and I cannot hope to reconcile.

As for lack of reason and your blatant ignorance of the opinions of the majority.....no problem.....think whatever gets you through the day.

But in the end....keep looking at that red box under your name and the undeniable fact that you are 2nd from the bottom with bad reputation.

We can only hope that newbies see that red box of yours and are sufficiently warned.


----------



## sounddrive

jellyman i said awhile back in this post "poor frogs" and after seeing your tank and haw many large frogs your have in there i see that more true now than ever. i wish your frogs the best i really do. it suck that just anyone can buy a frog. your inability to admit when you are wrong will ultimately result in in there demise. sure they may have survived in there with each other but thats just it survived with what quality of live. shove that many people in an equivalent sized building and you will undoubtedly have a bunch of unhappy people. you lack allot of knowledge and apparently any sense at all. forget hybrids you cant even get the amount of frogs to comfortably keep in an enclosure right. even if you had all the same species thats way too many. i repeat my statement " it sucks that just anyone can buy frogs"


----------



## Jellyman

sounddrive said:


> jellyman i said awhile back in this post "poor frogs" and after seeing your tank and haw many large frogs your have in there i see that more true now than ever. i wish your frogs the best i really do. it suck that just anyone can buy a frog. your inability to admit when you are wrong will ultimately result in in there demise. sure they may have survived in there with each other but thats just it survived with what quality of live. shove that many people in an equivalent sized building and you will undoubtedly have a bunch of unhappy people. you lack allot of knowledge and apparently any sense at all. forget hybrids you cant even get the amount of frogs to comfortably keep in an enclosure right. even if you had all the same species thats way too many. i repeat my statement " it sucks that just anyone can buy frogs"



Yeah, poor fat happy frogs that have had no health issues of any kind in the 4 1/2 years they have been together. They have all more then doubled in size since I bought them and they all get along. What a horrible thing that is. You are probably correct though, If you were shoved into a building with alot of people you would probably not get along with many of them. 

One thing is correct, closed minded people should not be allowed to buy animals. When are you going to give yours away???


----------



## sounddrive

> 4 1/2 years they have been together


so sad cant even keep your own facts strait what happened to 6 years.. something tells me you haven't had them very long at all.



> poor fat happy frogs that have had no health issues of any kind


ill give you it does look like some of them are fat probably the dominant ones, also looks like a few are alittle less portly couldn't possibly be getting bully, not your frogs.



> they all get along


i take it you spend 24/7 in front of your viv. thats the only way you would know. maybe no aggression that you have seen.



> You are probably correct though, If you were shoved into a building with allot of people you would probably not get along with many of them.


you called me a minority again no facts, but look close i think with frogs you are the one having trouble making friends. i almost feel bad for you. nothing better to do than stir up a hornets nest and end up looking like an ...... well i don't think ill stoop to your level and attack you as a person you may be very nice but your morals with animals and comments in this forum SUCK!!!! 



> One thing is correct, closed minded people should not be allowed to buy animals. When are you going to give yours away???


I'm far from closed minded and you have used that like six times already new material wouldn't hurt. i really wish you could hear yourself  you are the definition of closed minded. . my animals are going no ware they truly are happy, healthy, and taken care of right. i don't have 20 people telling me the opposite.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I really think it`s about time someone(mods?) put an end to this. 13 pages is about enough, don`t you think?

John


----------



## Jellyman

sounddrive said:


> so sad cant even keep your own facts strait what happened to 6 years.. something tells me you haven't had them very long at all.
> 
> 
> ill give you it does look like some of them are fat probably the dominant ones, also looks like a few are alittle less portly couldn't possibly be getting bully, not your frogs.
> 
> 
> 
> i take it you spend 24/7 in front of your viv. thats the only way you would know. maybe no aggression that you have seen.
> 
> 
> 
> you called me a minority again no facts, but look close i think with frogs you are the one having trouble making friends. i almost feel bad for you. nothing better to do than stir up a hornets nest and end up looking like an ...... well i don't think ill stoop to your level and attack you as a person you may be very nice but your morals with animals and comments in this forum SUCK!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm far from closed minded and you have used that like six times already new material wouldn't hurt. i really wish you could hear yourself  you are the definition of closed minded. . my animals are going no ware they truly are happy, healthy, and taken care of right. i don't have 20 people telling me the opposite.



If you read my post that I posted the pictures in you would have noticed that I had corrected myself on how long this vivarium has been running, 4 1/2 years. I had the two leucs a bout 1 1/2 years prior. I was able to get amore accurate time frame when I looked at the pictures. I did not have to disclose my mistake but I was not going to lie about it.

No I do not spend 24/7 with the frogs. None of us due. I consider aggression to be frogs that beat on other frogs causing feeding and health issues. I'm sure at some point in the past 4 1/2 years a frog had a bad day and pushed another frog around but I simply have not seen this behavior. Well fed frogs have no need to fight for food. try feeding yours more if you are having aggression issues.

You are a minority within this post if you listen to the answers given on the question can multiple species of frog be housed in the same enclosure. The issue was not should they be cross bred but only is it possible to have a mixed vivarium. The answer is simply Yes they can. More then half of the responding members have said this. They also feel that the person should be well informed and researched on the topic or have a good degree of experience. What some members are saying is that it is possible but they feel that because of cross breeding people should not while others simply feel it is the individuals choice. That does not mean it cannot be done. It is only your opinion that it should not. Your opinion is no better or worse then anyone else's. 


"nothing better to do than stir up a hornets nest and end up looking like an ...... well i don't think ill stoop to your level and attack you as a person you may be very nice but your morals with animals and comments in this forum SUCK!!!! " -- Please point out anywhere that I said someone's comments SUCK or where I called someone an ass !! If you read my post I agree there is no need to cross breed the frogs I just do not feel compelled to forcefully tell others they are absolutely wrong if they choose to do so. You sure do set the bar for how low the level can be set and how ignorant one can be when they truely are in capable of civil conversation. I'd be more then happy to discuss this further through PM's with you but I think you are enjoying the open air attacks.

I'm finished with this topic in an open forum. If anyone is interested on how to properly set up a mixed species viviarium please just send me a PM. I can send you pictures of the initial setup, progression pics, and let you know what has worked for me.


----------



## Brian Ferriera

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I really think it`s about time someone(mods?) put an end to this. 13 pages is about enough, don`t you think?
> 
> John


I will second that
Brian


----------



## kyle1745

Ok, I think its clear this is a hot topic that gets many people here going. There is a ton of information on the topic if you search the site. The fact is the majority of the community does not recommend mixing. If you choose to do so then all we ask is that your respect the hobby and not inject any hybrids into the hobby thus killing any hybrids unless for research.

Its not a "high horse" or "elitist" its years and years of experience and a passion for keep our current lines "clean".

I also want to remind everyone that purpose of the beginners section is NOT to continue in depth conversations such as this.

If the current direction continues we will be forced to lock the thread. I apologise to the new member who may have been unaware of the passion behind this topic and urge them to continue to read an learn about these fine animals.


----------



## jubjub47

Jellyman said:


> Mixing frogs is perfectly fine. I currently have 4 azuras, 4 tincs, 4 green auratus, 4 black auratus, and 2 leuc's all living together. They share a vivarium that is 3'LX2'WX3'Tall. They have all been living together for the past 6 years and have no health issues. I feed them all dusted fruit flies, probably about 200 per day. I have not lost a frog yet except for one that ecscped somehow the first week I got them and became frog jerky on the floor.
> 
> I can understand the imbreeding issue but pretty much every animal that has entered the pet trade has been breed and cross breed for traits that make for more interesting or compatable animals. I am not interested in breeding mine. They are merely for my enjoyment but if the did breed and I had a new strain of frog I know they'd sell fast and for a good piece of change.
> 
> Go for it!!!!


I pretty much stopped reading this thread at this point because this shows a perfect example of why this is not a recommended practice. Jellyman, I've kept dart frogs for the past 16 years with a short break in the middle. I've kept all of the frogs that your keeping together at some point in that time. I also know that all of the frogs your keeping in that setup will hybridize. If these frogs are doing as well as you claim you absolutely would have found offspring in the viv at some point over the past 6 years. They may or may not have been hybrid offspring, but they would have produced offspring. Any experienced keeper knows that the species you claim to be keeping in harmony will breed given they are in a healthy environment with or without your participation. I've had auratus froglets appear in a viv that had no water area and no broms in it. I have no idea what they ate or where they grew up, but they did. If things were as happy in this viv as you claim, they would have found a way to breed.


----------



## xm41907

After close observation of the pictures of this tank, I have to question the validity of the age of this tank. You claim you don't like overgrowth and trim it, however I see nothing in the pictures that would indicate this tank is 4 1/2 years old. No algal growth. The substrate shows no signs of compaction or additional layers. The plants do not look like they have been trimmed for the last 4 1/2 years. This looks to be no more than a few months old. Do other people agree or am I just critiquing it too harsh?


----------



## Philsuma

xm41907 said:


> After close observation of the pictures of this tank, I have to question the validity of the age of this tank. You claim you don't like overgrowth and trim it, however I see nothing in the pictures that would indicate this tank is 4 1/2 years old. No algal growth. The substrate shows no signs of compaction or additional layers. The plants do not look like they have been trimmed for the last 4 1/2 years. This looks to be no more than a few months old. Do other people agree or am I just critiquing it too harsh?


I told myself that I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore unless really necessary.....

Well, since you asked and are truly wondering... I don't think it's an older tank either. A LOT of things don't sit well with me and are very "odd" and suspect. Anyone with some decent breeding experience knows what I mean.

Fortunately there has been an adequate amount of dialogue, disscussion and debate and I feel that most all newbies should be able to tell what is reasonable and proper.

And that this whole thing was about from the start despite the spin that was attempted....a new guy asking a question and many members trying their best to give him the best advice from their experience so that he could be sucessful and enjoy the hobby and animals.


----------



## heatfreakk3

i agree with kyle. everyone needs to stop the fighting, we all need to just be friends and help each other out with problems. this is a place to find help and talk with people for fun, not to fight and argue


----------



## vivariman

It does seem that the tank has no signs of 4 1/2 years. But about your comment on being territorial, even if they are well fed, territory is in their instincts. Having a territory is having the right to food, mates, security, and breeding locations. I doubt that feeding more would solve all of this. And then you have to consider that the territories are larger than any tank we have provided (except rmelacon's or anybody elses huge room sized vivariums), provides enough room for a bullied one to escape to.


----------



## divingne1

I think Kyle summed it up when he stated that people here are not on a high horse or elites, but they are passionate about this hobby and want to keep this hobby "clean". If any new person reads this thread all the way to the end, then Please, for the respect of this hobby and to the frogs and many organizations who put a lot of sweat and time into it, if you are going to have mixed species tanks, please flush the eggs. 
Candy


----------



## heatfreakk3

if you dont want to flush the eggs you can keep the frogs and take care of them. but make sure you know how to care for them good


----------

