# Parent or tadpole - who decides?



## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

I have been fascinated with a small in viv experiment I have been undertaking in my retic viv. Basically I wanted to find out who decides which brom axil or film canister (fc) is used; is it the transporting male or the transported tad or tads. 
Factors - single tad being carried unsure who makes the decision. So once the tad has been deposited I moved the fc's around. The male would revisit the 'occupied' fc but the tad would stick fast and although the male would revisit and submerge into the fc no jump off. Add another fc and pretty soon after the tad would be in there. Could it be that the occupying tad releases a hormone that signals to other tads that the space is 'taken'?

Now another factor. My male retic regularly carries two tads at a time.









Never have two tads jumped off into the same fc, always two go in on the males back and one is still there when he comes back out. So I think the decisions are down to the tads not the frogs. - or am I croaking out the wrong brom?

What's your thoughts 

Regards
Marcus


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You may be interested in this research 
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nrc/cjz/2009/00000087/00000005/art00010 


Ed


----------



## yoshi9 (Feb 15, 2011)

Very interesting and very cool research  do you have like a small water feature or pond where you let the dad take the eggs and let them hatch out there?


----------



## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

Ed said:


> You may be interested in this research
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/nrc/cjz/2009/00000087/00000005/art00010
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Ed, I'll sort a full copy as it looks really interesting.



yoshi9 said:


> Very interesting and very cool research  do you have like a small water feature or pond where you let the dad take the eggs and let them hatch out there?


I provide both film canisters and broms for the retics to use for deposition. The film canister tads I raise and leave the parents to do the ones in the broms.

Today I tried putting two well developed tads (both with front legs just popped and at a stage where I remove the fc from the incubator into the grow out viv at an easy to get out angle) and within ten minutes one tad was out of the fc and had to be rescued and returned to a seperate fc. Not sure if it elected to leave on its own accord or the other tad 'chased' it out of the water. 

I raise my Terribs tads communally and only once seen tadpole aggression when I mixed some smaller tads with larger tads - one of the larger tads went for the smaller ones like a great white shark and had eaten two before I quickly removed the others. Terrib tads not cannibalistic - oh yes they are!

Regards
Marcus


----------



## yoshi9 (Feb 15, 2011)

Mworks said:


> Thanks Ed, I'll sort a full copy as it looks really interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting  thank you. My idea is just find the eggs and put them in petri dishes to hacth.


----------



## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Interesting research, please keep posting what you find.



yoshi9 said:


> Very interesting and very cool research  do you have like a small water feature or pond where you let the dad take the eggs and let them hatch out there?


These are small frogs, they are called "thumbnails" for a good reason. The male guards the eggs where they are laid, usually on a clean surface, like a leaf. When the tadpoles hatch out, they wriggle up on to the fathers back and he deposits them in water, but not a pond. They are deposited in small pockets of water that form in the leaf brackets of plants. In the dart hobby, film canisters are used as surrogate plants to give the males more choices on where to drop off the kids.


----------



## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Good idea for an experiment and some interesting theories. More people (a much larger sample size) would be needed for conclusive evidence but I like the fact that you are trying this and are willing to share your experience.


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Mworks said:


> Never have two tads jumped off into the same fc, always two go in on the males back and one is still there when he comes back out. So I think the decisions are down to the tads not the frogs. - or am I croaking out the wrong brom?


I think we must give your father retic much of the credit for this. Not all thumbnail fathers are as diligent. I've seen more than one father forget about 2nd or 3rd tadpoles in a clutch after having patted himself on the back for a successful drop off of the first.


----------



## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I totally agree on that. My Vanzo transported one tad and left 3 in a film can to dry out before I noticed. 

My C. Valley males both took a tadpole from a two egg clutch and deposited it. Was interesting watching two males sporting tads for over 24 hours.


----------



## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

johnc said:


> I think we must give your father retic much of the credit for this. Not all thumbnail fathers are as diligent. I've seen more than one father forget about 2nd or 3rd tadpoles in a clutch after having patted himself on the back for a successful drop off of the first.





D3monic said:


> I totally agree on that. My Vanzo transported one tad and left 3 in a film can to dry out before I noticed.
> 
> My C. Valley males both took a tadpole from a two egg clutch and deposited it. Was interesting watching two males sporting tads for over 24 hours.


Yup the male is being 'super dad' but there is still the issue that as he sits totally submerged what is the deciding factor that only one tad will jump off?

As there are tads being deposited at the moment I tried moving the fc's with tads in around. The male visited and submerged but the tad stayed firmly put. I then removed the tad from one of the fc's leaving the water that the tad had been in unchanged, I'll keep the thread updated on what's happening.

Regards
Marcus


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In my opinion there are a couple of things going on here.. one is the male visiting water holding sites, the second is whether or not the tadpole accepts it, the third being how long the condition of the tadpole allows it to reject offered sites. 

I would be very surprised if the tadpoles were unable to detect the presence of previously deposited tadpoles which would result in them rejecting deposition sites. 
In other Ranitomeya, social parasitism has been documented which results in the feeding of eggs (and possibly tadpoles) to established tadpoles by at least one of the facultative egg feeders in this group (R. ventrimaculatus off the top of my head). 

It would be interesting if you could remove tadpoles and return the water to the canisters and see how long it takes for a new tadpole to take up residence. There are a couple of ways you could set up controls to check on it. 
If you collect data on it would be definetly be worth a write up. 

Ed


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I just posted some photos of a female Cristobal carrying two tads and am concerned that she might have deposited them in the same axial. If so, then I'm sure only one, and possibly neither, will survive.


----------

