# Line Breeding



## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

When it come to breeding frogs how important is the line breeding?

I dont meaning breeding for certain traits. I mean breeding only frogs from one persons lines to that line. 

What establishes a line?

Does breeding a leucomela from AAA line with a leucomela from XXX line is that inbreeding?


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

Most of the original lines are determined by an import, these are the lines that should be maintained because most of these frogs are site specific, believed to be site(local) specific, or were imported from europe and in that case their origin is usually unknown. Using peoples names as lines tends to get inaccurate because people start calling a line of frogs based of the person they purchased them from, when they should only be called the line based off the person who originally imported them. The danger in crossing lines is mixing frogs from known origins with those from unknown sites, than you would lose the pure blood lines that came in. The only sure site specific frogs are through importations like INIBCO, and UE, where as the rest of the true lines are named after their original breeder. None of them should be crossed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

What he said. Generally, keeping to the lines ensures that the frogs are only bred with others whose ancestors were obtained from a specific locality in the rainforest. 
Sometimes with different lines, even though they are the same species, you have one line, AAA, from a pocket in one part of the rainforest, and another line, BBB, from a pocket miles away. Crossing these two would destroy any subtle, but significant to the hobby, characteristics that are indigenous to the locales from whence they originally came. 
If you can ask the originator of the line where he/she collected them, and if they have only ever collected that species from one location, and you find another line where this situation is analogous, then what you are asking is remotely possible. This is a lot of trouble, though, and the odds that this would be the case are slim to none (I have already tried this route when I was a new frogger---did not get a clear answer, but I did get some good conversation). If you want more genetic diversity, simply get two frogs from the same line but from different breeders.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Breeding only frogs that are from the same "line" ensures that (over time), small genetic mutations will become additive and (probably) injurious to the frogs. This is akin to only breeding male and female puppies from the same litter, generation after generation. They quickly become inbred and prone to many genetic abnormalities.

If you get your frogs from the same line, only from different breeders, it's like breeding cousins rather than siblings (which amounts to almost the same thing). It is still a very shallow gene pool to be working with.

It is a much better practice to consider breeding frogs together from several known lines (from the same locality), but imported at different times (something I am trying to accomplish with the matecho tinctorius morph right now). The problem is that there is often very little to no locality data associated with the frogs (at least in D. tinctorius).

Take care, Richard in Staten Island.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Line is a word in the pet hobby with far too many definitions.

A line should be a locale of a species that breeds together in the wild.

People often make lines of recieved WC frogs to err on the side of caution in keeping the frogs pure. They may not know if they are the only ones with animals from that gene pool, but make sure they don't just label them "nominat" and have them get lost into the melting pot of normal-looking locales.

Inbreeding means breeding the same animals from the same gene pool until they don't have enough genetic diversity, but I think I understand what you mean. Not trying to sound elitist, just thought I'd inform you of that. When you breed different lines together, you're usually combining genetics that wouldn't breed in the wild, definitely a bad thing. However, in certain cases such as with INIBICO imis, one can confirm that the different lines all have the same genetics, they just originate from different imports. Confusing stuff, I wish everyone would use collection and site numbers like Understory Enterprises and the killifish hobby.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

So if I get an Azureus from XXX line and a Azureus from BBB line I should not breed them together?

Here is my problem and if it makes me a bad " frogger" so be it. I have some frogs that I do not know their specific lines. I am not talking some high end pumilios, etc. I am talking azureus, luecs, etc. What do I do in that situation? Especially when some one ask me what line they are. I have not a clue what line my Si tricolors are. SHould I seperate them so they do not breed?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Woodsman said:


> Breeding only frogs that are from the same "line" ensures that (over time), small genetic mutations will become additive and (probably) injurious to the frogs. This is akin to only breeding male and female puppies from the same litter, generation after generation. They quickly become inbred and prone to many genetic abnormalities.
> 
> If you get your frogs from the same line, only from different breeders, it's like breeding cousins rather than siblings (which amounts to almost the same thing). It is still a very shallow gene pool to be working with.
> 
> ...


I agree with that. My problem, too, has been finding the locality information, and I think that those who began each line should make that readily available so that we can have a better chance of avoiding genetic abnormalities. I tried for quite awhile to find locality info on Alex Sens' line for the D. Imitator and also for the Nabors' line. What I was told was sketchy at best---there were no 'hard records'. 
I do the best I can with what I have...


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

porkchop48 said:


> So if I get an Azureus from XXX line and a Azureus from BBB line I should not breed them together?
> 
> Here is my problem and if it makes me a bad " frogger" so be it. I have some frogs that I do not know their specific lines. I am not talking some high end pumilios, etc. I am talking azureus, luecs, etc. What do I do in that situation? Especially when some one ask me what line they are. I have not a clue what line my Si tricolors are. SHould I seperate them so they do not breed?


I would say until things get more organized in that regard, keep them separate by lines. The 'trend' back in 1980s was to breed across different lines to improve genetic diversity, and someone who originated a line told me that same philosophy recently, but most others will tell you not to cross lines these days.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> I would say until things get more organized in that regard, keep them separate by lines. The 'trend' back in 1980s was to breed across different lines to improve genetic diversity, and someone who originated a line told me that same philosophy recently, but most others will tell you not to cross lines these days.


 
I can not seperate by lines if I do not know them.
I do not know the lines of my azureus, leucs, tricolors, etc.. Are you saying I should not breed them?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

porkchop48 said:


> I can not seperate by lines if I do not know them.
> I do not know the lines of my azureus, leucs, tricolors, etc.. Are you saying I should not breed them?


I disagree. I think you should make the effort when locales are known (i.e. don't cross INIBICO and Tor lines, etc.) but when they are not (in your case) just do what you can to avoid hybridization (ie. don't breed SI's with highland tricolors) and sibling breeding, when possible. Personally, I think line breeding is good in some circumstances, but can be a bit overexercised in the hobby.


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> I disagree. I think you should make the effort when locales are known (i.e. don't cross INIBICO and Tor lines, etc.) but when they are not (in your case) just do what you can to avoid hybridization (ie. don't breed SI's with highland tricolors) and sibling breeding, when possible. Personally, I think line breeding is good in some circumstances, but can be a bit overexercised in the hobby.


I agree. Of course you know not to breed nominant leucs with BG's and such so I don't see a problem.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

boogsawaste said:


> I agree. Of course you know not to breed nominant leucs with BG's and such so I don't see a problem.


Yes I do know that part. I know not to cross frogs. Normal leucs with BG is a no no. But a normal leuc and a normal leuc is ok. I know not to corss my SI tricolors with a different morph. I am definately not a newb to this but the whole line thing was completely throwing me off. 

I know the line of my orange lamasi and can probably track down my imitators line but as for the rest I don't think I can. I am almost def. I can track down my Popa line. But as for the Azureus. They are azureus. No special line no nothing. Just azureus.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

This has also worried me
I got all my frogs from the reptile show held in Hamburg here and when I did so, I wasn't a memeber on the board here so I didn't kno what kind of questions to ask


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

porkchop48 said:


> Yes I do know that part. I know not to cross frogs. Normal leucs with BG is a no no. But a normal leuc and a normal leuc is ok. I know not to corss my SI tricolors with a different morph. I am definately not a newb to this but the whole line thing was completely throwing me off.


Sorry if my post seemed to refer to you as a beginner. I know you were in the hobby for some time and I was just using a very basic example for everyone else who reads this. Not really directed to you.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

boogsawaste said:


> Sorry if my post seemed to refer to you as a beginner. I know you were in the hobby for some time and I was just using a very basic example for everyone else who reads this. Not really directed to you.


It did not really refer to me a a newb. I think I may just be having a bad day/week.
I took no offense to it. 

This question has just bother me for a while and I had recieved a pm the other day about what line my frogs were ( I still have no answered it. I swear I will get to it) so the pm sparked my interest a bit more finally ask.


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

This is an argument that has no correct answer. It's all determined in how you feel about the subject. 

Valid points were made on both ends. On one hand, line breeding in reptiles and amphibians can produce abnormalities, some later on down the generation than others, like infertility, etc. However, it varies greatly from species to species among herps. That said, there isn't any evidence, that I'm aware of, that suggests that line breeding darts causes any common pattern of abnormality. We tend to think of people and inbreeding, which is a way to look at it, but not to judge it because mammals and amphibians are very different creatures with different means of reproduction. 

The other side is that keeping the lines pure are better. I can see this side's argument because most of the lines in the hobby are poor excuses for specific locality. I've been all over central america and have worked with a lot of researchers in the middle of nowhere. That said, if an exporter is getting wildly collected frogs, which are the beginnings of any/every species in our hobby, he will not be asking the locals who bring them in exactly where they got them while logging the info in. They'll be bringing as many as possible from wherever they can. In certain instances through reputable exporters I'm sure the practice is much more positive, however early on I doubt that these original lines were just the same looking frogs that got sorted out by someone else. Hell, in Belize they call almost every venomous snake a "tommy goff". Which includes fir de lance, jumping vipers, etc. Just saying locals call things what they call them, not what we do. Overall, the lines just show phenotypic(physically manifested traits) similarities, and don't have much to determine genotype(genetic makeup expressed as phenotype). 

Great question and interesting hypotheses. Just thought I'd blob about science while not being able to sleep.


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

porkchop48 said:


> Yes I do know that part. I know not to cross frogs. Normal leucs with BG is a no no. But a normal leuc and a normal leuc is ok. I know not to corss my SI tricolors with a different morph. I am definately not a newb to this but the whole line thing was completely throwing me off.
> 
> I know the line of my orange lamasi and can probably track down my imitators line but as for the rest I don't think I can. I am almost def. I can track down my Popa line. But as for the Azureus. They are azureus. No special line no nothing. Just azureus.


An azureus is an azureus, breed them. And you can breed an fine spot azureus to a normal azureus and not worry about anything. People have selectively bred for the fine spot.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mattolsen said:


> This is an argument that has no correct answer. It's all determined in how you feel about the subject.
> 
> Valid points were made on both ends. On one hand, line breeding in reptiles and amphibians can produce abnormalities, some later on down the generation than others, like infertility, etc..


Just a point of clarification.. the whole abnormalities thing is what people commonly think about in relation to inbreeding (which is what line breeding really is), but that is more the exception than the rule. There are significant impact from this early on in the process of line breeding since it reduces the frequency of genes that help with resistence to disease and parasites (major histocompatability complex). It is well known that even in other frogs that the population does much better when this part of the genetics has the maximal variation available in the population. (see for example PLoS ONE: Major Histocompatibility Complex Based Resistance to a Common Bacterial Pathogen of Amphibians ). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

I'd never insinuate that genetic variability isn't better than the opposite. And line breeding can/is the same as inbreeding depending on who's using the term. I was just pointing out some points I found interesting. Thanks for the info ed.


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## Johno2090 (Aug 31, 2011)

mattolsen said:


> because mammals and amphibians are very different creatures with different means of reproduction.


I wasn't aware that amphibian genes and mammal genes behaved differently in regards to reproduction?


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

Johno2090 said:


> I wasn't aware that amphibian genes and mammal genes behaved differently in regards to reproduction?


Every species has variability in the way their genes are expressed in many ways. That's pretty much the determining factor of a species. A species is an organism that is able to reproduce with one another to produce viable offspring. Besides that, the entire process is different between mammals and amphibians. Hence, mammals give live birth and amphibians lay eggs, etc. Many more differences, just the major one.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

mattolsen said:


> Every species has variability in the way their genes are expressed in many ways. That's pretty much the determining factor of a species. A species is an organism that is able to reproduce with one another to produce viable offspring. Besides that, the entire process is different between mammals and amphibians. Hence, mammals give live birth and amphibians lay eggs, etc. Many more differences, just the major one.


Just to nit pick, the ability of two organisms to produce fertile offspring is a somewhat antiquated definition of a species (a lot of our frogs would all be the same species if that was the case.) There are a lot of other factors that need to be taken into account.

Also, the basics of sexual reproduction and the meiotic process are incredibly well conserved between many taxa (that I can think of anyway,) whether or not they lay eggs or give live birth doesn't effect the genetic variability of the offspring. Number and types of genes and chromosomes will vary but the process of meiosis is essentially the same in any species that reproduces sexually. So, although mammals and amphibians, or other taxa, have different genes and express them in different ways, you can still draw some conclusions regarding the genetic management of amphibians based on what we know about mammals.

I would like to avoid line breeding as well, but until I know for sure that I would be breeding to a different line of the same wild population (this is after all what we are trying to preserve in the hobby) I won't do it.


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