# Cycling a Frog Viv?



## MarkBlanchard13 (Mar 8, 2021)

I saw a YouTube vid about cycling a vivarium for PDFs (tincts) like an aquarium. I started it a few weeks ago and seeded it with Filter squeezins from my freshwater aquarium (cycled in 2016). How does one know if a vivarium is cycled?
I'll probably do another squeezins inn the coming week(s) when I clean my aquarium filter again.

Good enough?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Moist soil has its own nitrogen cycle.

I would never add aquarium water to an amphibian situ. You could end up also seeding it with harmful oocysts and other pathogenic organisms.

The multiplicity rate of bacteria is millions per short periods of time. I think its better to let it take its course.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Cycling a vivarium is not the same as cycling an aquarium. 

Your vivarium will cycle on its own with no seeding needed. The only organisms you need to add to your vivarium to get it started cycling are springtails and/or Isopods. 

Adding aquarium water to the substrate is a risky proposition. As KMC noted, there is a lot of things that you could transfer to your vivarium that you don't want there.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I agree with the above comments. Further, I wish the hobby would stop using the term 'cycling' for what happens in the introductory weeks/months of a viv, because the things keepers are talking about there doesn't constitute a cycle.

Here is a thread that cites a paper listing many of the pathogens that can be and are transmitted between fish and amphibians.

YouTube (and any and all general media platforms) is completely useless for gaining information on animal care, mostly because either (a) every bit of "information" acquired there must be cross-checked with sources that aren't just parroting what they saw on YouTube (et al), and (b) figuring out who is a reliable source of information on YouTube (et al)-- there are very few, but they do exist -- is at least as challenging as learning the information on one's own.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

To cycle, I usually just plant + add springtails (assuming everything is in place), then mist/water to get humidity to stabilize.

My cycling is done, in my eyes, once the fungal/mold growth subsides and the plants settle in and start growing. Can be anywhere from 2 weeks to a month. I have two tanks right now that are 3 months cycling...mostly because I am just waiting for inhabitants to arrive!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A Youtube tutorial about animal care is kind of like what happens watching a magicians trick. 

The better the editing and showcasing skills, the more veracity it implants in the perception of the viewer even though husbandry knowledge and computer skills have nothing to do with each other.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Woops, I used the term cycle =D


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Off topic, but I’m thinking of starting a thread about the problems of the YouTube algorithm and how it relates to dart frogs in captivity.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

"Cycling" in an aquatic environment is not the same as prepping a vivarium for inhabitation by dart frogs. Fish and other aquatic beasties produce by-products that can be toxic to them in an aqueous environment. Frogs don't have to breathe their own waste it. There also seems to be a huge difference in the concentrations that are toxic to fish vs. the amount of waste that would have to be produced by frogs in a terrestrial environment to be toxic to them. I know it's possible for this much waste to be generated, but not at the animal concentrations and using the husbandry techniques that would usually be advised in a vivarium. 

The idea of letting a tank sit for a bit before putting animals in it is analogous to "cycling" but the goals are a bit different. The clean-up crew in a viv might be thought of similarly to ramping up beneficial bacteria in a fish tank, but it isn't nearly as imperative or measurable (as would ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are in an aquarium). Likewise, you can think of building enough plant biomass as a similar process to an aquarium break-in period, but, again, it's not quite the same. Really, you are taking advantage of the fact that your tank is animal-free to dial things in, make mistakes, allow plants to grow in an environment that might be sub-optimal for frogs - that sort of thing. You want to make sure everything is working (including you as the keeper) before the stakes get high. Aquariums aren't usually afforded this sort of luxury at the beginning because the fish are part of the process of the tank becoming ready to sustain life in the long term (yeah, I know you can also just chuck fish food or scummy water in there to "cycle", but that's not usually what happens). Anyway, while both kinds of habitats should have a break-in period, what happens during that time is pretty different and it is dangerous to extrapolate too many of the details from one type of habitat to another. Think of it as a general concept, not one where you are trying to duplicate all of the steps. 

Mark


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

In soil based captive habitats maintained with topical 'pick ups' of large fecal boluses per in environments of larger taxa - a viable system of what behaves to be a beneficial bacterial community in situ where no microfauna was deliberately added - (according to an absence of detectably foul notes in the substrate) and this attained only by stirring and patting down during maintenance with no added micro fauna. 

By all means not discounting the benefits of aerating and consumpion; just a note.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Socratic Monologue said:


> YouTube (and any and all general media platforms) is completely useless for gaining information on animal care, mostly because either (a) every bit of "information" acquired there must be cross-checked with sources that aren't just parroting what they saw on YouTube (et al), and (b) figuring out who is a reliable source of information on YouTube (et al)-- there are very few, but they do exist -- is at least as challenging as learning the information on one's own.





Kmc said:


> A Youtube tutorial about animal care is kind of like what happens watching a magicians trick.
> 
> The better the editing and showcasing skills, the more veracity it implants in the perception of the viewer even though husbandry knowledge and computer skills have nothing to do with each other.





FroggerFrog said:


> Off topic, but I’m thinking of starting a thread about the problems of the YouTube algorithm and how it relates to dart frogs in captivity.






Trigger warning: This guy is basically the final boss of youtubers that don't know what they're talking about. He's very happy to offer his expert advice on 'co-habitating' species he hasn't even kept himself. At about 2:45 he describes keeping dart frogs and mourning geckos together as 'the perfect balance'. At about 6:00 he suggests keeping tortoises and iguanas together.


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## MarkBlanchard13 (Mar 8, 2021)

Chris S said:


> To cycle, I usually just plant + add springtails (assuming everything is in place), then mist/water to get humidity to stabilize.
> 
> My cycling is done, in my eyes, once the fungal/mold growth subsides and the plants settle in and start growing. Can be anywhere from 2 weeks to a month. I have two tanks right now that are 3 months cycling...mostly because I am just waiting for inhabitants to arrive!


Thanks. Mine has been set up for about 3 weeks. I'll be planting soon. I was waiting for warmer weather to get frogs.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

But Louis, he has sleeve tattoos! He must know what he is doing!


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

MarkBlanchard13 said:


> Thanks. Mine has been set up for about 3 weeks. I'll be planting soon. I was waiting for warmer weather to get frogs.


If you haven’t planted yet, maybe a good idea to change out the substrate? To make sure you haven’t introduced anything detrimental from the aquarium filter?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Lovelyk said:


> If you haven’t planted yet, maybe a good idea to change out the substrate? To make sure you haven’t introduced anything detrimental from the aquarium filter?


I'll echo this. If you can reduce the risk, it's worth doing.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

That's prudent advice. Note that removing the substrate, drying and baking it, and then reusing it might be more palatable than tossing it.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Louis said:


> Trigger warning: This guy is basically the final boss of youtubers that don't know what they're talking about. He's very happy to offer his expert advice on 'co-habitating' species he hasn't even kept himself. At about 2:45 he describes keeping dart frogs and mourning geckos together as 'the perfect balance'. At about 6:00 he suggests keeping tortoises and iguanas together.


Oh no...

I wonder how many new hobbyists have fell down the rabbit hole, trapped in an endless cycle of bad tutorials. Well, I must start researching.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> But Louis, he has sleeve tattoos! He must know what he is doing!


_*
Jesus wept.








*_


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## CharlieN (Mar 5, 2019)

Rather than calling it cycling i prefer the term growing in. Since basically you are allowing your plants to take root and establish themselves as well as the micro fauna before introducing the larger inhabitants to the ecosystem you have created.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

CharlieN said:


> Rather than calling it cycling i prefer the term growing in. Since basically you are allowing your plants to take root and establish themselves as well as the micro fauna before introducing the larger inhabitants to the ecosystem you have created.


Oh, man. You had me hooked on the terminology -- 'growing in', that's perfect. Gets the description right, and doesn't hint at aquariums. Nothing magical, just plain old time to get settled. Accurate. Descriptive. Comfortable. Rolls off the tongue.

But then you had to throw in 'ecosystem'.....Arghh! Another misleading term....will it never end?....


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## CharlieN (Mar 5, 2019)

Ok so drop ecosystem and were good. I agree that opens a whole other can of worms.


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## Dartymcfly (Mar 10, 2020)

Somewhat off topic. I am hoping to finally setup an enclosure in the near future. The vivarium would be in my office where I also have a quarantine tank for my fish. With a fish quarantine tank they typically recommend keeping it at least eight feed away from other aquariums. Would there be any risk keeping a vivarium in close proximity to an aquarium?

I am assuming no, but want to confirm since they would only be a few inches apart unless I rearrange my office.


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