# Dying tinctorius!!



## dtinx (Jul 6, 2008)

I got two powder blue tinctorious in March and they were about the size of a nickel or a little smaller. They both seemed to be doing great, and I never noticed any agression. Then one started growing bigger and faster than the other until it was noticably larger. About 2 weeks ago I saw the smaller one appear to be coughing/choking on what I learned was most likely his stomach. He got to be increddddddddddddibly skinny and I called Pete who told me about pedialyte soaks. I began doing that and he definitely fattened up to a more normal size.. but I have never seen him eat. When I add flies to the tank he runs in fear of them when they approach him!! I never see him moving and wonder if hes dead sometimes until I check a few hours later and he is in a new spot. He doesnt hold himself up anymore but just kind of lays out flat like he cant support himself. I am sure something is very wrong but I dont know how he is still alive or what I can do to help him. 

Any suggestions or advice or places for me to look up info?? I really love this guy and was so sad when I thought he was dead. But I dont want to make a dying frog suffer longer than he needs to. Is euthanization a valid option?? These are my first non furry non fish pets ever and they made me fall in love with the species. Id hate to kill him but hate for him to un necesssarily suffer.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Sorry you are having such a rough time with your tincs. I could not tell from your post, if both frogs were still together in the same enclosure if they are ...I would move the sick one to a seperate enclosure perhaps the other is stressing him. Other suggestions ...contact a vet ...try just feeding 3 or 4 flies at a time. I am still learning as well, but he best of luck.

Sally


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## dtinx (Jul 6, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Sally. Yesterday when I tried to remove him from the enclosure he seized and then seemed to be frozen in the position. His legs looked mangled and useless to him. I thought he had died at that point and used Oragel to ensure that he was out of his misery  this is my first death since raising dart frogs and I hope the last for a long time to come. He was in the same enclosure as his friend and I hope that if it was stress it was because they were the same sex or something. I dont want a similar fate to happen to the new baby tinc that was added to the viv a week or 2 ago to make it a trio, now a duo


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

The seizing sounds like calcium deficiency. You might want to keep calcium gluconate on hand in the future. Are you dusting the FFs? What's the history on these frogs?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

It should also be noted that tincs don't do well in groups unless very large. A pair is better.


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## dtinx (Jul 6, 2008)

I do dust the fruit flies with calcium every time i feed them which is about 3 times a week. Usually every 2 or 3 days, more or less depending on if there are any flies still in there from the last feeding. The frogs were sold to me by a very experienced dart breeder and I believe that they were in fine health for a few months after I got them so it was something I did or that happened in the tank.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dtinx said:


> I do dust the fruit flies with calcium every time i feed them which is about 3 times a week. Usually every 2 or 3 days, more or less depending on if there are any flies still in there from the last feeding. The frogs were sold to me by a very experienced dart breeder and I believe that they were in fine health for a few months after I got them so it was something I did or that happened in the tank.



What supplement are you using? 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

It can't hurt to test for chytrid---contact John with Pisces Molecular about this. 

The only supplements I use are Herptivite, who makes a separate calcium supplement to be used with their vitamin supplement. Other brands combine calcium with other vitamins, which inhibits absorption. Also, storing your vitamins in a humid or warm area will greatly reduce their nutrient load.


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## dtinx (Jul 6, 2008)

I also use Herptivite supplements. How long do they last before going bad? I think the location they have been stored is okay so I don't think that was it. Everything else that has been feeding insects from those same supplements is alrite. I have added a lot of leaf litter to my tank and moved a few things to increase the visual barriers so my young tinc can hide if need be!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

So is Herptevite the only supplement you use? 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

dtinx said:


> I also use Herptivite supplements. How long do they last before going bad? I think the location they have been stored is okay so I don't think that was it. Everything else that has been feeding insects from those same supplements is alrite. I have added a lot of leaf litter to my tank and moved a few things to increase the visual barriers so my young tinc can hide if need be!


They have an expiration date printed on the bottle. If you are only a month away from expiration, it may be prudent to replace them with fresh ones. 

If they are still good, you may want to seriously investigate chytrid and/or run fecals on the frogs, especially considering the fact that your other animals are doing fine using the supplements you have.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> It should also be noted that tincs don't do well in groups unless very large. A pair is better.


I have two questions:

How large of an enclosure are they in, and how many are in that one enclosure?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Replacing vitamin supplements 6 months from their opening date is a best practice.


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## dtinx (Jul 6, 2008)

It was two powder blues and two juvenile (1 1/2 inches) morning geckos. The two species have never shown any animosity towards each other and will hunt flies side by side without aggression. I never saw either frog be aggresive to the other one either.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i' m confused...are you saying you have geckos and the powder blues in the same tanks????????


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

dtinx said:


> It was two powder blues and two juvenile (1 1/2 inches) morning geckos. The two species have never shown any animosity towards each other and will hunt flies side by side without aggression. I never saw either frog be aggresive to the other one either.


And, how big is their tank/enclosure?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Before it gets too buried.. 

Is Herpetivite the only supplement used? 

Mourning geckos (Lepidodactylus lugubris) are on the of the species that people have kept with dart frogs off and on for years but typically they have been housed with adults of the larger species. Size of the enclosure is less important than how the enclosure is set up. 


Ed


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## dtinx (Jul 6, 2008)

Herpivitite is the only supplement being used but I do use the calcium and the multivitamin formulas. The tank is a 29 gallon which i believe is pretty well planted however by no means is it overgrown.

thanks for all the replies and follow up questions guys!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okay the next follow-up. 
Which calcium supplement are you using. There are two different ones made by that company. 
Are you mixing them? 
Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

To borrow a quote from Rich Frye's signature:

"Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed species tanks. There is no known benefit to the FROG at all with either." 

Bearing this in mind, have you ever run fecal parasite tests on both the frogs and on the geckos?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> To borrow a quote from Rich Frye's signature:
> 
> "Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed species tanks. There is no known benefit to the FROG at all with either."
> 
> Bearing this in mind, have you ever run fecal parasite tests on both the frogs and on the geckos?


And to hijack this a little... recent information in bullfrog tadpoles show that infections with pinworms positively affect growth and development and pinworms are known to occur in dart frogs. 

Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed, 
You have brought that (^) up more, more than once. Please let me know when you find pinworm benefits for our Darts. Our Dart frogs keep in mind, and then those pinworms will no longer be parasites. Will they?
OH, and let's not forget that that same study shows that the tads expel those same worms _before_ they become frogs. So even if there happens to be a similar situation that possibly shows up , maybe, down the line, there will _still_ be no, zero, zilch bennies to the Dart frogs. Will there?

Yes, get your frogs tested. Everyone. Every time.

Rich


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> Ed,
> You have brought that (^) up more, more than once. Please let me know when you find pinworm benefits for our Darts. Our Dart frogs keep in mind, and then those pinworms will no longer be parasites. Will they?
> OH, and let's not forget that that same study shows that the tads expel those same worms _before_ they become frogs. So even if there happens to be a similar situation that possibly shows up , maybe, down the line, there will _still_ be no, zero, zilch bennies to the Dart frogs. Will there?
> 
> ...



Hi Rich,

And in that study the metamorphed frogs get a second set of pinworms that may provide the same benefits. 
Now lets start looking at pinworm infections across a broad range of vertebrate herps.. and not surprisingly they are being shown to be mutalistic infections or commensialistic... in lizards 
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18416417 (also page 209 Gastroinestional Microbiology)

in frogs http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0 (the one where the adult frogs aquire another pinworm..) 

In lizards that feed on ants, the nematodes assist digestion by assisting the breakdown of the exoskelton of the ant. Many dendrobatids have a diet that is high in invertebrates are high in chitin and oddly enough, there are pinworms found in adult dendrobatids (see http://www.jstor.org/pss/3279281, http://www.springerlink.com/content/w573g6j77165j51l/, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14550481 and there are more...). 

You constantly use the phrase "no known benefit" to imply the assumption that the presence of a commensual is automatically a negative when there is evidence to the contrary in other anura as well as other taxa. 
I am not advocating not getting fecal checks and that would be against everything I have recommended to date but the evidence in the literature is starting to shift against considering all infections of some nematodes to be non-beneficial... 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

OK boys, you're both very well-educated and you each have a valid point but let's not jack the thread...the question remains...have the tincs and geckos had fecal tests run? I think darts primarily deal with hookworms and coccidia as the major threats, not pinworms---I don't see those mentioned often, anyway...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Fecal checks are important, but I'm not leaning towards parasites being the root cause at this point. There may very well be parasite infections which are working on debilitated animals however the type of calcium supplement needs be checked and once we know that answer we'll have a more clear picture. 

Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed, 
Assumptions on interpretations revolving about sig aside, I think we are still waiting for positive cited nematode interaction in _our_ Darts.Period. 
I have little doubt that we can find positive worm activity in lizards, frogs, humans, and garbage, 
Bottom line. If you are holding out to hope for a beneficial worm to slip into our little hobby, get fecals in the mean time.
Sorry about the HJ. but I was drawn in with a big hook in my mouth...


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

For the record. I absolutely know there are protozoa, worms, bacteria, and the like that are beneficial. It's the parasites in my frog poop that I am concerned with.


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## dtinx (Jul 6, 2008)

it is the Phosphorus free calcium with vit d3. it is in a pink tub and is probably about 6 months old. nothing else is showing any problems of any sort. Everyone is active, continue to sleep in the same places at night, come right out to eat when flies are added. 

I know this will probably be frowned upon by the majority of people here but I just really feel i dont have the money to spend on fecals for my frogs.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I think that it's possible from their behavior that your tincs have a parasite load that they cannot handle---you also seem to be giving them supplements that are just on the edge of needing replacement, though. I strongly suggest you shell out the $34 that it costs to send a fecal to Dr. Frye ($18 for the collective frog fecals if they are in one tank together and $16 for overnight mail via USPS). Put the fecals together with a small square of wet paper towel soaked in purified/distilled water in a tiny tupperware with the sample, NOT tap water. His email is [email protected]. This is not a large fee compared to the cost of replacing your frogs and the heartache you would get from losing them all slowly due to some unknown factor---at least you can rule out parasites. Most froggers have this done for their frogs---it is just a good idea in the long run. It's good to follow up in a month with another fecal test just to be safe.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dtinx said:


> it is the Phosphorus free calcium with vit d3. it is in a pink tub and is probably about 6 months old. nothing else is showing any problems of any sort. Everyone is active, continue to sleep in the same places at night, come right out to eat when flies are added.
> 
> I know this will probably be frowned upon by the majority of people here but I just really feel i dont have the money to spend on fecals for my frogs.


Are you mixing them together or using them seperately? If you are mixing them, what are the ratios? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> For the record. I absolutely know there are protozoa, worms, bacteria, and the like that are beneficial. It's the parasites in my frog poop that I am concerned with.


\

So how are you differentiating between the beneficials and the non-beneficials in the poop? 

Ed


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## dtinx (Jul 6, 2008)

i give them calcium twice as often as i give them multivitamin. when i do give them multivitamin i dust the ffs in a mix of 50/50 calcium and multivitamin.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > For the record. I absolutely know there are protozoa, worms, bacteria, and the like that are beneficial. It's the parasites in my frog poop that I am concerned with.
> ...


I know I'm butting in here, but we all know that every organism with a digestive tract has some good and bad organisms mixed together. The only way to know if you have bad ones multiplying out of control and harming your body (if you're human, frog or otherwise) is to run a fecal test. Other physical symptoms such as diarrhea, weight loss and fatigue indicate an imbalance of gut-colonized bacteria or an active parasite infection.

Observation of physical symptoms and medical tests are two ways to diagnose an imbalance of these organisms. 

Otherwise, I think it's not necessary to do any other sort of 'differentiating'---maybe you just want him to list which are 'good' and which are 'harmful'? I don't think it's particularly helpful to do that for the frog's sake if we've already identified that parasites are organisms which harm their host, and beneficial organisms are those that live symbiotically without harming their host. 

Did you have a specific organism in mind that you had a question about?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > For the record. I absolutely know there are protozoa, worms, bacteria, and the like that are beneficial. It's the parasites in my frog poop that I am concerned with.
> ...


Very simple Ed, 
My brother does. He has become fairly good at it after thousands and thousands of strickly Dart Frog fecals. Not lizzards, not pigs, Darts.
Can you name one single worm or protozoa that has been proven to be beneficial to Darts? I can name quite few that are harmful.

Rich


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> I know I'm butting in here, but we all know that every organism with a digestive tract has some good and bad organisms mixed together. The only way to know if you have bad ones multiplying out of control and harming your body (if you're human, frog or otherwise) is to run a fecal test. Other physical symptoms such as diarrhea, weight loss and fatigue indicate an imbalance of gut-colonized bacteria or an active parasite infection.
> 
> Observation of physical symptoms and medical tests are two ways to diagnose an imbalance of these organisms.
> 
> ...



Hi Susan,

One of the things we often see is a routine decision that anything that shows up in a fecal as a "negative" function. There is often no attempt to make a determination if the organism in the fecal is truly having a negative impact on the animal, if it is there, it is automatically acting in some fashion to the detriment of the animal. 
As time goes on and we are beginning to get a better understanding of the impacts on the "host" (in quote as this implies a negative interaction as opposedc to a neutral or beneficial interaction), the idea that all items previously considered to be parasites is more and more old fashioned (much like when I was a child, people removed tonsils so they didn't have to deal with thier kids getting tonsilitus and ignoring the idea that this is part of the immune system and should not be removed unless there is a real medical need).. For example check out this link on the effects of an induced parasite infection in humans on Crohn's disease (http://www.nature.com/ncpgasthep/journa ... p0107.html) . It was proposed in this article http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/full/14/12/1848 that this autoimmune disorder is caused by a failure to aquire a parasite infection. This doesn't even take into account that different parasites prevent infection by other similar parasites (for a discussion for the average member of the public see the book Parasite Rex by Carl Zimmer) or can have other effects. 

In the post above Rich states that he knows there are beneficial organisms inhabiting the frogs but doesn't explain how he knows what they are.... 
So treating the frog simply because there is something in the fecal is not only probably not in the best interest of the frog, it could be counterproductive to the frog in the long run. Now there are some that are known to be a problem such as lungworms (Rhabdias ssp) and hookworms as these can build into superinfections. However a number of other species cannot reinfect the host as they need alternative hosts and without them, the infection may be a minor issue. It is a good idea to get a fecal to see what is in the frog but then an informed decision needs to be made as to whether the frog needs to be treated as there are potentially negative consequences for treatment as well as not treatment and these need to weighed towards the benefit of the animal in question and with something like pinworms that as we look at more and more species are shown to be beneficial as long as they are not over abundent, this also needs to be weighed. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> Very simple Ed,
> My brother does. He has become fairly good at it after thousands and thousands of strickly Dart Frog fecals. Not lizzards, not pigs, Darts.
> Can you name one single worm or protozoa that has been proven to be beneficial to Darts? I can name quite few that are harmful.
> 
> Rich


Hi Rich,

So does your brother discount the evidence that in multiple taxa pinworms have a benefical result? On what basis/proof was the determination made that they do not perform the same function in dendrobatids that they do in multiple other taxa? I am not referring to a super infection of pinworms but low grade presence of them. I am aware that the determination of to read and rate the infection level of a fecal is a totally subjective piece of information as well. 

Ignoring the evidence in other taxa by attempting to restrict the application to dendrobatids when there have not been any studies showing that it is a positive or negative is an ineffectual attempt to distract from the data in other taxa. 

Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

"In the post above Rich states that he knows there are beneficial organisms inhabiting the frogs but doesn't explain how he knows what they are...."

No Ed,
Re-read my post. I said "For the record. I absolutely know there are protozoa, worms, bacteria, and the like that are beneficial."
Big difference. No word "frog" in mine.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > Very simple Ed,
> ...


Answer my above questions please Ed. The below also.
Why are you taking the " prove their are not beneficial worms" stance. I think you need to cite one single example of a beneficial worm or protozoa in a PDF. Please. Are you expecting to find any in the near or distant future? How are we missing these potential good worms? What testing are we missing for these great worms? And, why are we soooo fixated on finding that holy grail of the wormdom, the beneficial Dart nematode? 
I am totally open to the thought of having beneficial critters in our Darts. If and when it happens and is absolutely proven I will jump right on the 'introduce and or don't kill that bug in the poop' movement. That day is not here, I doubt to see it any time soon. I doubt that worms not yet found and not known to be indigenous (in-fact, known not to be) to a Dart frog's system are well founded worms to be throwing into this conversation.

Rich


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Hi Rich and Ed, 

What should we do to help dtinx further with his frog problem?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

earthfrog said:


> Hi Rich and Ed,
> 
> What should we do to help dtinx further with his frog problem?


Oh, yah, I would quite simply contact someone who works in the Dart medical field and has a ton of experience with them. Speculation and forum Dart med/health experts aside, if I personally have something medically wrong I contact an actual doctor. I have my brother's contact info on my website.
Also, I have to say that it alarms me when I read of tincs (especially full, not dwarf morphs) being sold at the size of less than a nickle. Too tiny in my opinion.

Rich


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