# Simple breeding cages



## gekkotan (Dec 3, 2009)

Can D.tinctorius breed in simples cages? I am keeping a pair in a 20gal, with paper in the botton, 2 coco huts (with dishes under them) and another water dish. There is also a small pothos in the cage. Will they breed or I need to provide a more naturalistic cage with more furniture and more complex struture? They have been kept this way for 1 month since I got them and have seen they eat only this week. I havent heard the male calling yet.


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## Gumby (May 27, 2010)

gekkotan said:


> They have been kept this way for 1 month since I got them and have seen they eat only this week.


D. Tinctorius tend to be a very bold frog and if you have only been able to see them eat in this last week then that is a sign that they probably are not comfortable in their enclosure. I would suggest a naturalistic environment over a paper towel subtrate with little cover. They need very high humidity to breed so you must mist heavily. You also need to provide some more information for more help. Such as, what type of Tinctorius do you have?

-Chris


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

First off why wouldn't you want to have a more natural environment for them? I mean first off with the more natural environment you can get a lot more plants and the plants will do better having soil to grow in and stiff, and the frogs will be a lot more happy with tons of new hiding places from the plants. Also just paper towels doesn't look too good. You have these BEAUTIFUL frogs, wouldn't you want a beautiful tank to compliment them? That way you can show it off to friends and family  and trust me, building the viv and learning is one of the best parts!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I can't really recommend you keep them in that kind of enclosure even if you're not planning on breeding. Your tincs will appreciate a better enclosure and you'll appreciate your tincs when you see their behavior in a better constructed enclosure. Trust me on that.


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## gekkotan (Dec 3, 2009)

Since I got them, I kept the frogs in a small terrarium with coco dust but, it seems to anoy the frogs so I then putted them in this larger plastic tank with paper lowel. Maybe all these changes are the cause for the late feeding response. They are eating very well now.

My tincs are WC and I planned to keep them in the most simples terrarium as possible, breed them and tranfer all the offspring to my room which is where I keep all my pets CB in my home. I know, its sounds neurotic and I know it is, buts is woking for me since I lost some other herps. I could say I have a "forever quarantine" and a "clean room". 

I have been told about the locality where they were collected and I have my suspects about the morph, but am not sure. I will not say what I know to not induces your guesses like placebo effect. I will take and upload the pictures as soon I can.

Well, I think I will at least chance the substrate again for a not soo loose substrate. Maybe coco chips and put a lot some more pothos to give them more security.

Thanks for your help guys


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Leaf litter will help to keep substrates from sticking to the frogs and also give them hiding spots for an increased feeling of security.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

gekkotan said:


> Since I got them, I kept the frogs in a small terrarium with coco dust but, it seems to anoy the frogs so I then putted them in this larger plastic tank with paper lowel. Maybe all these changes are the cause for the late feeding response. They are eating very well now.
> 
> My tincs are WC and I planned to keep them in the most simples terrarium as possible, breed them and tranfer all the offspring to my room which is where I keep all my pets CB in my home. I know, its sounds neurotic and I know it is, buts is woking for me since I lost some other herps. I could say I have a "forever quarantine" and a "clean room".
> 
> ...


Since you are obviously new a keeping dart frogs, and you obviously didn't do your research into how to keep them, you shouldn't have aquired WILD CAUGHT frogs. Do they live on paper towels in the wild?


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss and leaf litter and some pothos is a simple set up you should have as a minumum. It will reducess stress and make them more comfortable.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

gekkotan said:


> I could say I have a "forever quarantine" ...
> I will not say what I know to not induces your guesses like placebo effect.


...or you could say you have the two most unfortunate frogs in the hobby.

"I will not say what I know to not induces your guesses like placebo effect."------Huh??


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Can you post a pic of the vivarium?


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## mjahnke (Sep 8, 2008)

You'll change your mind when you have to start changing paper towels out every other day. 

Is it really that difficult to make a false bottom/soil/leaf litter with a couple of pothos?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Well ya know what they say, some people keep dart frogs, others just kill 'em....unfortunately for the frogs.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Paper towel (I like the brown stuff) with plastic hide boxes is totally acceptable (probably preferred) for quarantine and medicating your frogs.

Did you send in fecal samples to get the frogs loads checked?

Most likely, they will not breed in a quarantine enclosure (save for extreme stress breeding) as you will be bothering them far too often while doing the necessary.

People need to avoid the naturalist fallacy when dealing with things. Look at all the pictures that just came back from the Peru trip - minimal plants and tons of leaf litter. How many enclosures do you see like that?

Once you are done with quarantine and medication, setting up a simple tanks with gravel, soil mix, leaf litter and a couple plants will be your best bet. It will be easier for you to maintain and likely less stressful on the frogs


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree that quarantine tanks are necessary and should be maintained as simply as possible. A human could live in a one room studio apartment...but do you really want to? There are many benefits to having a moderately planted vivarium. Plants aid in humidity control as well as giving the frogs cover and places to call from. In the wild frogs have abundant space from which to take refuge from other frogs as well as potential predators. The tiny vivariums which we keep frogs in do not afford that luxury. The more secure a frog feels in it's enviroment, the more you will see them, and the more you will see them behave normally ie. feeding, calling and breeding.


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## gekkotan (Dec 3, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Since you are obviously new a keeping dart frogs, and you obviously didn't do your research into how to keep them, you shouldn't have aquired WILD CAUGHT frogs. Do they live on paper towels in the wild?


Well, I am really new to dart frog keeping, but not to herps keeping. I just keep herps for at least 15 years and I do search a lot besides I am more a lizard guy. I have read about dart frog keeping for a long time before I buy this pair and I am not asking a question you see in the board. I am also a graduated biologist and have already worked in the field where some species of Dendrobates lives and have seen they habitat from a close view. I bought a WC pair cause I am not a US citizen and in my country there's virtually no CB pdf's. 



randommind said:


> ...or you could say you have the two most unfortunate frogs in the hobby.
> 
> "I will not say what I know to not induces your guesses like placebo effect."------Huh??


When you have some disease and someone gives you a pill to you get better, you could get really better even if the pill has no effective chemical. The healing do occur just for psicological induction. Thats why every new drug in medicine should be tested with placebo (inactive substance) to prove what is chemical effectiveness and what is psicological. I didnt wanted to tel what I think about the morph to let you say what I got without lead the guesses to a tendency.

BTW, I changed my mind and you can find the pictures in this new topic in the right section:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/identification-forum/61445-tinctorius-morph.html#post532897



AaronAcker said:


> Can you post a pic of the vivarium?


Aaron, heres the pic since the substrate change today.












mjahnke said:


> You'll change your mind when you have to start changing paper towels out every other day.
> 
> Is it really that difficult to make a false bottom/soil/leaf litter with a couple of pothos?


You are absolutely right mjahnke, I just change it.



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Well ya know what they say, some people keep dart frogs, others just kill 'em....unfortunately for the frogs.





Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I think you should quit buying WC frogs till you do some research and can learn how to care for dart frogs properly. And quit buying from dealers that don't know where the frogs came from.


Man, in 13 years in herp forums you must be the most rude and annoying man I have seen. I keep asking myself why should you act like this and others, much more experienced than you are very pleasing and show much more pacience and good will. You judge me about my WC darts and dont even know why I got them.



Chris Miller said:


> Paper towel (I like the brown stuff) with plastic hide boxes is totally acceptable (probably preferred) for quarantine and medicating your frogs.
> 
> Did you send in fecal samples to get the frogs loads checked?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your words Chris, I realize that. And just wondered if they could be bred this manner. For their offspring I plan to build a much more elaborated vivarium. Unfortunately, in my country there is no specialized vet or anywhere I could have the fecal done.
Thanks for all replies.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I agree that quarantine tanks are necessary and should be maintained as simply as possible. A human could live in a one room studio apartment...but do you really want to? There are many benefits to having a moderately planted vivarium. Plants aid in humidity control as well as giving the frogs cover and places to call from. In the wild frogs have abundant space from which to take refuge from other frogs as well as potential predators. The tiny vivariums which we keep frogs in do not afford that luxury. The more secure a frog feels in it's enviroment, the more you will see them, and the more you will see them behave normally ie. feeding, calling and breeding.


This is a far more productive post than the vast majority of the ones on the thread. The guy made mistakes by not doing enough research ahead of time, but crucifying him will do nothing but turn him off and put the frogs at greater risk. I'm not singling you out.



gekkotan said:


> Thanks for your words Chris, I realize that. And just wondered if they could be bred this manner. For their offspring I plan to build a much more elaborated vivarium. Unfortunately, in my country there is no specialized vet or anywhere I could have the fecal done.
> Thanks for all replies.


The only breeding you are likely to get in that type of enclosure is stress breeding, where they think it's the end of the world and have to pass on their genes. Not saying breeding won't happen, it just most likely be a healthy situation.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

What country do you live in? It might be helpful for you to put your location in your profile. I think people here forget that some countries are 20 years behind us dart wise and that we now the Dutch/swedes/Germans to a new country's Marshalls, Powells and Nishiharas (just some of the founding froggers in the US).


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## gekkotan (Dec 3, 2009)

Chris Miller said:


> What country do you live in? It might be helpful for you to put your location in your profile. I think people here forget that some countries are 20 years behind us dart wise and that we now the Dutch/swedes/Germans to a new country's Marshalls, Powells and Nishiharas (just some of the founding froggers in the US).


Chris, as I have said earlier, I have even been in Dendrobates tinctorius habitat. I know how to reproduce their habitat using terrarium techniques rare in my country but not in US or EU. I have made some styros backgrounds, very rare here. I just asked if they could breed in this type of terrarium or the more elaborate ones are a must.
I prefer to not say where I do live as here its fobbiden to keep any reptile or ambhibian but a few controlled species. But thanks for the help.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Since you are obviously new a keeping dart frogs, and you obviously didn't do your research into how to keep them, you shouldn't have aquired WILD CAUGHT frogs. Do they live on paper towels in the wild?


It's actually pretty common to acquire wild caught frogs in the dart frog hobby....

As Chris mentioned breeding is a possibility, but it would likely be stress breeding which is not the kind of breeding you want. You want the kind of breeding that occurs because they are comfortable in their environment. The more hiding places you can provide the better.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can breed the frogs in very basic setups.. for example a 20 long with a false bottom, a way to drain any excess water and a shallow substrate in which plants were rooted will work quite well. You don't need an elaborate set-up with a background etc. 
Just several hiding spots (which can be supplied with several coconut huts or hide areas) and enough food, and misting. 

You want to minimize how much you have to disturb the frogs (which will be very common with the paper towels). 

Ed


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## gekkotan (Dec 3, 2009)

Ed said:


> You want to minimize how much you have to disturb the frogs (which will be very common with the paper towels).
> 
> Ed


Yes, this is a MUST point. I will let them alone the most possible, not disturbing them, mist and feed a lot e let the tank a little more confortable with more hide places and more simple plants. Thanks
Any news and I will tell ya.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

No insults are intended. The guys who started our hobby were/are very dedicated hobbyists and also travelled to central and south America to view and collect frogs. I said what I said because many new people here don't realize where our hobby came from. You can't have cb without at least one pair of WC frogs somewhere. 



gekkotan said:


> Chris, as I have said earlier, I have even been in Dendrobates tinctorius habitat. I know how to reproduce their habitat using terrarium techniques rare in my country but not in US or EU. I have made some styros backgrounds, very rare here. I just asked if they could breed in this type of terrarium or the more elaborate ones are a must.
> I prefer to not say where I do live as here its fobbiden to keep any reptile or ambhibian but a few controlled species. But thanks for the help.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

gekkotan said:


> Yes, this is a MUST point. I will let them alone the most possible, not disturbing them, mist and feed a lot e let the tank a little more confortable with more hide places and more simple plants. Thanks
> Any news and I will tell ya.


Are you still sticking with paper towels, though?


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Gekko, it doesn't look like there is a drainage layer with your new substrate, if that's the case you may run into some problems. I would put a few inches/cm of gravel under the substrate that you plan to use... and coco chips aren't the best choice. The frogs can ingest them while feeding and they can become stuck in the digestive tract, sometimes causing illness or even death. 

Try-
-Bottom layer (2-3" or so)- pea gravel or Lightweight Expanded Clay Aggregate (LECA)

-non-metal window screen between layers to prevent soil from getting into the water... if that happens the water can stagnate and harbor all sorts of bad bacteria

-top layer: several options here. Sphagnum moss, a ground coco substrate such as Eco Earth (not sure if they have that where you are, but do an internet search and you'll know what I mean), ground peat moss, or other soil substrate that does not have fertilizer/additives, or pieces big enough to cause impaction if ingested (perlite is one ingredient to stay away from, for example). 

Preferably, a bit of powdered bentonite, laterite, or other ground clay should be mixed in with the top layer (probably not 100% necessary for tincs, but the experiences of many suggest that it is beneficial for their health, especially for developing froglets).

I hope that helped, and good luck. Where are you from?


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## chadbandman (Dec 3, 2007)

You need more plants. If the cage is around 16 x 24 w/a solid top and 2 inches of mulch. They will breed. If there's a layer fo gravel for drainage the mulch will last longer. Your on the right track.


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## gekkotan (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks for the tips guys. I'll so include a drainage system with LECA under the coco chips.


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