# SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization



## kmk5g

Hi,
Please check out savethefrogs.com if you haven't yet. Lots of info on amphibian extinctions, threats to frogs, ways to help, etc...

There are cool savethefrogs.com bumper stickers and SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirts as well, if you want to support their conservation activities.
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts


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## jehitch

kmk5g said:


> Hi,
> Please check out savethefrogs.com if you haven't yet. Lots of info on amphibian extinctions, threats to frogs, ways to help, etc...
> 
> There are cool savethefrogs.com bumper stickers and SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirts as well, if you want to support their conservation activities.
> Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts


Am I too cynical to point out there are already great conservation organizations out there working on amphibian conservation, and the organizers of this group could avoid duplicating efforts by helping AArk or TWI, instead of starting a new organization?
Jim


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## Roadrunner

You also might want to fact check your page
How to Help Save Frogs

The mountain yellow legged frog is dissappearing because of chytrid. The extra limbs on frogs occurs because of agricultural fertilizer runoff. It creates algal blooms which increase the number of snails ,which host a parasite, that lodges in limb budding sites creating multiple limbs. It`s the increase in snails that increases the # of parasites available to affect tadpoles.


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## jehitch

frogfarm said:


> You also might want to fact check your page
> How to Help Save Frogs
> 
> The mountain yellow legged frog is dissappearing because of chytrid. The extra limbs on frogs occurs because of agricultural fertilizer runoff. It creates algal blooms which increase the number of snails ,which host a parasite, that lodges in limb budding sites creating multiple limbs. It`s the increase in snails that increases the # of parasites available to affect tadpoles.


Which certainly casts doubt on the "truthiness" of this statement from the home page:


> Who we are
> SAVE THE FROGS! is an international team of scientists, educators, policymakers and naturalists dedicated to protecting the world’s amphibian species:


There are a lot of other telltale signs that this site is actually the product of some guy banging out Dreamweaver pages in his parents basement, using conservation as a way to sell crappy Cafe Press products.


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## kmk5g

frogfarm said:


> You also might want to fact check your page
> How to Help Save Frogs
> 
> The mountain yellow legged frog is dissappearing because of chytrid. The extra limbs on frogs occurs because of agricultural fertilizer runoff. It creates algal blooms which increase the number of snails ,which host a parasite, that lodges in limb budding sites creating multiple limbs. It`s the increase in snails that increases the # of parasites available to affect tadpoles.


Hi frogfarm,
Chytrid is indeed a serious threat to this frog (Rachowicz et al. 2006), which is one reason I have spent the last 5 years conducting research on chytridiomycosis, a topic on which I have published 15 papers in peer-reviewed international journals such as Conservation Biology, Journal of Wildlife Diseases, Journal of Zoology and Diseases of Aquatic Organisms.

Introduced trout are another major threat (Vredenburg 2004). 
And pesticides are a threat as well (Davidson 2004; Davidson et al. 2007). 
There are rarely solitary threats to amphibians (Davidson and Knapp 2007).

REFERENCES
Davidson C (2004). Declining downwind: amphibian population declines in California and historical pesticide use. Ecological Applications 14:1892-1902.

Davidson C, Benard MF, Shaffer HB, Parker JM, O'Leary C, Conlon JM, et al. (2007). Effects of chytrid and carbaryl on survival, growth and skin peptide defenses in foothill yellow-legged frogs. Environmental Science Technology 41:1771-1776.

Davidson C, and Knapp RA (2007). Multiple stressors and amphibian declines: dual impacts of pesticides and fish on Yellow Legged Frogs. Ecological Applications 17:587–597 

Rachowicz LJ, Knapp RA, Morgan JAT, Stice MJ, Vredenburg VT, Parker JM, et al. (2006). Emerging infectious disease as a proximate cause of amphibian mass mortality. Ecology 87:1671-1683.

Vredenburg VT (2004). Reversing introduced species effects: experimental removal of introduced fish leads to rapid recovery of a declining frog. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, USA 101:7646-7650.


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## Roadrunner

And who are you? You haven`t introduced yourself or even given a name?
You don`t have to quote there is usually more than one problem, I realize that. Not listing the main killer for a specific locality of frogs might not look good when your trying to save frogs. People who saw Jeff Corwin`s special would think your not up on the situation since Chytrid is the main problem there, and has been for years.


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## elscotto

jehitch said:


> Which certainly casts doubt on the "truthiness" of this statement from the home page:
> 
> There are a lot of other telltale signs that this site is actually the product of some guy banging out Dreamweaver pages in his parents basement, using conservation as a way to sell crappy Cafe Press products.


 It seems a bit premature to accuse this guy of merely capitalizing on amphibian declines to sell stuff. Dr. Kriger, Executive Director of the organization, does in fact have several peer-reviewed publications. Although I don't know him, his CV is posted on-line, and there is a link about the folks associated with "Save the Frogs" under "Who We Are." 
Perhaps this info about the people affiliated with the site wasn't available at the site before, but there are actually a number of very respected scientists listed under "Board of Directors" and "Advisory Committee."
-Scott


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## Brian Ferriera

And yet he wont ever sign his name..I am sorry but people who cant use their real name drive me nuts..
Brian


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## kmk5g

Hi everyone, 
I apologize if my lack of a name introduction did not follow protocol; I am new to forums, and assumed my username, which bears my initials, would suffice. Also, I tend to avoid adding my name to publicly searchable places when I can avoid it. I am indeed the aforementioned Dr. Kerry Kriger, and am Founder & Executive Director of SAVE THE FROGS! (SAVE THE FROGS!), which is a nonprofit organization dedicated exclusively to amphibian conservation. 

SAVE THE FROGS! has an Advisory Committee and a Board of Directors, as well as Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws that clearly state our legally recognized and enforceable nonprofit status and intentions. All this information has been publicly accessible on our Who We Are page since April 2008, when I built the website: Conservation Biology | Herpetology | Ecology

Information about me (including my background, publications, awards, and CV) is available at: Kerry Kriger

You will notice if you go to our donations page (which I hope you do, as SAVE THE FROGS! has a dearth of funding, and cannot accomplish our conservation goals without money) that no member of SAVE THE FROGS!, including myself, has ever received a paycheck. Thus, while I have indeed sat in a basement once or twice banging out Dreamweaver pages, as “jehitch” suggested, this has been done at my personal expense. Further, the pages I bang out are of high quality and high value, as every page bears my name and I take personal pride in every page of savethefrogs.com. I wonder if those who lambasted my original post would sacrifice 5 months of their full time effort, unpaid, to amphibian conservation, as I have done for SAVE THE FROGS!, and as I did for the first 2 years of my Ph.D. research. If indeed they would, they are free to contact me, as I can always use more SAVE THE FROGS! volunteers.

In response to the comments regarding the usefulness of SAVE THE FROGS!, everybody reading this thread should be very clear that amphibian conservation is failing, and that the species extinction rate is as high as at any point in the past thirty years, which is to say, 10,000 times higher than the fossil record suggests it should be. Nearly one-third of the world’s 6,450 amphibian species are threatened with extinction and may not survive the 21st century, and 200 species have already completely disappeared. With only 2,000 professional amphibian biologists worldwide, that means there is approximately one human being per threatened amphibian species. Just as you have a minimal chance of saving the human race from extinction by yourself, so too do amphibian biologists have only a slight chance of saving 2,000 species from extinction, if things remain as they are. 

Drastic actions need to occur, and these actions are not being sufficiently taken care of by Treewalkers, Amphibian Ark, or any other group, though it should be clear that all of these groups are an essential part of the battle to save amphibians from the current mass extinction crisis they are in, and they all do their jobs well. The problem is that the scope of the amphibian extinction crisis is far more complex and overwhelming than the herpetological community currently has the monetary resources or manpower to overcome. Thus SAVE THE FROGS! is not “re-creating the wheel” as stated above. For instance, do you know of any amphibian conservation group that offers full scholarships to potential Ph.D. candidates? I do not. Will we be able to increase the number of herpetologists, or the amount of herpetological research if we cannot offer grants or scholarships, which would lure undergraduates into the field of herpetology when it comes time for them to seek out Ph.D. positions? No. People write me all the time asking for research money. I know of nowhere to send them, as money for herpetological research is hard to come by. What percent of the human population knows that amphibians are rapidly disappearing? 1%? Maybe 2%? I’ll guess less than 0.001%. Will politicians take action to reduce pesticide use if there is an uneducated public that does not demand action? No. Will they stop the new supermarket from building on that unprotected ephemeral wetland behind your house? No.

In response to FrogFarm, my previous post clearly and explicitly references several well-cited and well-written papers from well-respected journals detailing multiple threats to the mountain yellow frog. FrogFarm, do you know that chytrid is spread by the human movement of amphibians? If you own a frog farm, what steps do you take to ensure that you are not a contributor to the problem? What percent of amateurs and professionals involved in the trade or shipment of amphibians test every single amphibian for every known amphibian disease? None. Is it possible to test for diseases that we have yet to identify? No. Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis, causative agent of chytridiomycosis, which in terms of biodiversity loss is the worst disease ever recorded, was not discovered until 1998; I often wonder how many other emerging infectious diseases are currently being shipped around the world unbeknownst to even those people who love frogs, as I’m sure you do. Have either TreeWalkers, AmphibianArk or any other conservation organization infiltrated every single pet store in America, China, Indonesia and India with sufficient information regarding such issues? I will guess that they have not. 

So I think we can all agree that amphibian conservation has a long way to go. I welcome your future support for SAVE THE FROGS! and welcome any constructive comments. 

With all due respect,
Kerry 

***********************************************
Dr. Kerry Kriger
SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization
Executive Director
Ecologist
SAVE THE FROGS!
Kerry Kriger

P.O. Box 2145
Centreville, VA 20122 USA
Phone (USA): 703-376-7945
[email protected]

"All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be
finished in the first 1,000 days...but let us begin." -- John F.
Kennedy


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## kyle1745

They do have a "Who We Are" page:
Conservation Biology | Herpetology | Ecology


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## Scott

That's fine Kyle - but he just finally posted what he probably should have posted in the first place.

A full, concise, introduction to both himself and his organization.

s


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## sports_doc

nice 

IMO
I see no foul in the Dr's initial post or in the way he responded to the less then hospitable responses. Let's try giving someone a chance, particularly since it would appear the Dr does have a vested interest in the animals we all profess to care deeply about.

case in point...
You all wanted to see a big introduction but..personally I only know jehitch as 'Jim' signed under _some_ of his posts, frogfarm as frogfarm [yes I know you Aaron but for anyone else finding your bio introduction on DB now would be impossible if it exists at all], Brian of course couldnt think of a more entertaining screenname so he used the one is parents thought up , and Scott as s from Maine. Maybe now everyone should introduce themselves to Dr Kriger. no?

What I'm saying here is that the Dr could have been offered some reasonable benefit of doubt, yes? and perhaps initially just asked to provide more information to the community? Which he eventually did despite the cold welcome.

Signed,
Shawn 
[an M.D. from N.H., who knows precious little on how to protect the amphibians of this planet, but desires that someone be allowed to try. A frog fancier who finds it hard enough just to keep his own damn animals alive, and a DB assistant who is all too often surprised by how his frog friends behave online].


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## Brian Ferriera

sports_doc said:


> nice
> 
> IMO
> I see no foul in the Dr's initial post or in the way he responded to the less then hospitable responses. Let's try giving someone a chance, particularly since it would appear the Dr does have a vested interest in the animals we all profess to care deeply about.
> 
> case in point...
> You all wanted to see a big introduction but..personally I only know jehitch as 'Jim' signed under _some_ of his posts, frogfarm as frogfarm [yes I know you Aaron but for anyone else finding your bio introduction on DB now would be impossible if it exists at all], Brian of course couldnt think of a more entertaining screenname so he used the one is parents thought up , and Scott as s from Maine. Maybe now everyone should introduce themselves to Dr Kriger. no?
> 
> What I'm saying here is that the Dr could have been offered some reasonable benefit of doubt, yes? and perhaps initially just asked to provide more information to the community? Which he eventually did despite the cold welcome.
> 
> Signed,
> Shawn
> [an M.D. from N.H., who knows precious little on how to protect the amphibians of this planet, but desires that someone be allowed to try. A frog fancier who finds it hard enough just to keep his own damn animals alive, and a DB assistant who is all too often surprised by how his frog friends behave online].


If I dint use my real name that make me a hypocrite  .
Brian


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## Scott

No need as *I* am not asking you to support my cause or organization.

Now - if I'm trying to sell something, I make darn sure people know who I am.

That said - things were settled just fine before you posted Shawn. No need for it.

s

[edit: ... and as negative as this reads, I stand by it. If I'm going to ask a board to "support my (our) cause", I'm going to introduce myself. When I wrote on behalf of IAD and/or TWI - I always signed my full name and my location. This is exactly the same thing.]


sports_doc said:


> ... and Scott as s from Maine. Maybe now everyone should introduce themselves to Dr Kriger. no? ...


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## jehitch

kmk5g said:


> <snip>(SAVE THE FROGS!), which is a nonprofit organization dedicated exclusively to amphibian conservation.


Dr. Kriger
Forgive my cynicism, developed through 25 years spent as a journalist. But, the first thing I do when a group suggests it is a nonprofit organization is to search its site for an indication as to its legal nonprofit status. I checked all the obvious places a nonprofit group would normally list this information on its website, and have not been able to locate it.

Can you tell me where this information is listed, or explain under what governmental agency regulations your group is classified as nonprofit?

Also, your site states


> SAVE THE FROGS! is a registered trademark of Kerry Kriger


Can you tell me why this trademark is registered in your name as an individual, instead of the organization which bears its name?

Also, a search of Google brings up no mentions of your group in articles by either on-line or print media in the first five pages of results. Can you supply some links to articles that have been written about your organization that have appeared in the media?

Thanks
Jim Hitchcock
Rainforest Station


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## kmk5g

Hi Jim,
SAVE THE FROGS! is incorporated in the Commonwealth of Virginia as a nonprofit, nonstock organization, meaning (1) no employee or director can take bonuses or salaries higher than is a legitimate income, and (2) when the organization dissolves the assets must be distributed to a 501(c)(3) organization, and not to the Board of Directors. Our Articles of Incorporation and Corporate Bylaws are available at the top of our Who We Are page, in paragraph #1: Conservation Biology | Herpetology | Ecology
If you would like further details regarding our nonprofit status, please contact me via email, as this is not an appropriate venue for that material to be discussed.

An article on SAVE THE FROGS! that I wrote, and which is published in Phyllomedusa, a South American Journal of Herpetology, is here:
http://www.savethefrogs.com/kerry_kriger/pdfs/Kriger-2008-Phyllomedusa-SAVE-THE-FROGS-7-2.pdf

There are no "official" articles on us, based on our lack of funds with which to advertise, and the fact that I have not yet been able to direct much time towards this. However, I currently have a team of volunteers compiling contact information for radio stations and newspapers in their state's large metropolitan areas, and I will soon be contacting them to raise publicity for April 28th's Save The Frogs Day: Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009
Anybody reading this thread is welcome to send us an email if they wish to do the same and we can get you set up. Any reader who knows media contacts should please email me at [email protected]. Anybody with children should show their teachers the Save The Frogs Day webpage.

Regarding the trademark, which is lodged with the USPTO, it is in my name, (1) because I thought of it and was first to use it in commerce, which took place prior to the incorporation of SAVE THE FROGS!, and (2) the USPTO application for trademarks required it be in one person's name.

Regarding http://savethefrogs.com/cafepress
This page was conceived of, designed, and is maintained by a SAVE THE FROGS! volunteer. As stated on that site, all our proceeds go to our amphibian conservation efforts. Cafepress does not write checks out in my name, but instead in the name of the organization. All those products help us spread the word about amphibian declines and raise money to take action. Plus they look good. If you have seen a better Frogs of Australia calendar, please let me know.

I strongly encourage everybody reading this thread to buy something at SAVE THE FROGS! - Gifts for Frog Lovers or to pick up an educational Frogs of Australia poster in the SAVE THE FROGS! gift center Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts 

And no, I have no qualms about such a blatant advertisement, being that (1) it positively benefits amphibian conservation, and the money is direly needed, and (2) this forum has required an hour or two of my time tonight. This time could have been spent doing any number of perhaps more crucial tasks; though of course I welcome the discussion.

If you want to keep track of what I am up to on a daily basis, please follow me on Twitter: 

Twitter / savethefrogs 

and/or on the soon to be announced FrogBlog: The FrogBlog 
(constructed by another SAVE THE FROGS! volunteer).

Sincerely, 
Kerry 
(if my first name will now suffice in posts. I am always contactable through the savethefrogs.com contact page).


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## kmk5g

I will also add that while we have received little media attention (in part due to our being less than one year old), the SAVE THE FROGS! logo and link is found on the AmphibiaWeb homepage. This is a PageRank7 site that receives 25,000 queries per day and is maintained by UCBerkeley. We are also currently featured on the AmphibiaTree | Assembling the Amphibian Tree of Life homepage.

That hopefully convinces the remaining skeptics of the authenticity of SAVE THE FROGS!. 
Kerry


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## Roadrunner

Hello Dr. Kriger,
I apologize but I have been around the pet trade for 20+ years and I`ve seen a lot of swindler`s. I don`t have the time to hit up your whole page and verify your credentials and validity of your organization.
I pushed hard for conservation donations to be a part of the classifieds here. I`ve donated over, well a lot of money to other organizations to save amphibians in the past. I get chytrid tests done on my frogs. I`m buying and managing critical amphibian habitat. I only buy animals that have been tested for chytrid or test them when they arrive. I only breed to sell, I don`t just buy amphibians and sell them to make a buck. I know a lot of jobbers and no, they don`t test. Chytrid is already throughout most of the U.S. and it`s been spread thru most states by the fishing bait industry, thru tads scooped up w/ the bait and thru salamanders. Are you aware that it can also be spread on researchers bagged muddy boots for a time? Also, TWI is working on supplying a testing program for people breeding amphibians in the pet trade. So, yes, I`m pretty aware of the problem and the situation.
What is your proposal for the pet trade in regards to the next infectious disease? Ban it or to educate? I guarantee that very little of the pet trade will sterilize, test and treat. If your wroking towards halting transport or imposing restrictions on amphibians your hindering our efforts to keep the species alive in captivity. 
If your going to solicit donations from a group of people who, mostly, are breeding frogs because we know their perils, you have to understand that w/out an introduction, you aren`t going to get a warm welcome. We thought we knew of all the legitimate amphibian conservation organizations out there. 
And sportsdoc, my website is in my signature and I`m not asking for donations. I think Brent himself did a write up here about TWI before asking for donations and has been an active member of the community. I haven`t seen anyone from SaveAFrog here either and we`ve had most of the other organizations as speakers at Naac or IAD or MWFF, etc. Don`t act like it wasn`t normal to be skeptical. 
I can`t donate in this economy and already am working w/ some good organizations but I could always advise on breeding frogs for free and do. 
Sincerely, Aaron Handzlik
Aaron`s Frog Farm



kmk5g said:


> In response to FrogFarm, my previous post clearly and explicitly references several well-cited and well-written papers from well-respected journals detailing multiple threats to the mountain yellow frog. FrogFarm, do you know that chytrid is spread by the human movement of amphibians? If you own a frog farm, what steps do you take to ensure that you are not a contributor to the problem? What percent of amateurs and professionals involved in the trade or shipment of amphibians test every single amphibian for every known amphibian disease? None. Is it possible to test for diseases that we have yet to identify? No. Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis, causative agent of chytridiomycosis, which in terms of biodiversity loss is the worst disease ever recorded, was not discovered until 1998; I often wonder how many other emerging infectious diseases are currently being shipped around the world unbeknownst to even those people who love frogs, as I’m sure you do. Have either TreeWalkers, AmphibianArk or any other conservation organization infiltrated every single pet store in America, China, Indonesia and India with sufficient information regarding such issues? I will guess that they have not.
> 
> So I think we can all agree that amphibian conservation has a long way to go. I welcome your future support for SAVE THE FROGS! and welcome any constructive comments.
> 
> With all due respect,
> Kerry
> 
> ***********************************************
> Dr. Kerry Kriger
> SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization
> Executive Director
> Ecologist
> SAVE THE FROGS!
> Kerry Kriger
> 
> P.O. Box 2145
> Centreville, VA 20122 USA
> Phone (USA): 703-376-7945
> [email protected]
> 
> "All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be
> finished in the first 1,000 days...but let us begin." -- John F.
> Kennedy


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## jehitch

kmk5g said:


> Hi Jim,
> SAVE THE FROGS! is incorporated in the Commonwealth of Virginia as a nonprofit, nonstock organization, meaning (1) no employee or director can take bonuses or salaries higher than is a legitimate income, and (2) when the organization dissolves the assets must be distributed to a 501(c)(3) organization, and not to the Board of Directors.


Dr. Kriger,
Thanks for the additional information. A search of the IRS database of charities and nonprofit organizations does not come up with any groups with your name. Can you email me with information as to your IRS status? My email is [email protected].


kmk5g said:


> There are no "official" articles on us, based on our lack of funds with which to advertise, and the fact that I have not yet been able to direct much time towards this. However, I currently have a team of volunteers compiling contact information for radio stations and newspapers in their state's large metropolitan areas, and I will soon be contacting them to raise publicity for April 28th's Save The Frogs Day: Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009


Editorial copy in major print media is not based on advertising dollars spent. If you don't mind a little advice from someone who spent his lifetime in print media, this should be one of your first priorities upon forming a new group.

Start with your local newspapers, and contact the features editor suggesting your organization warrants a story. A story in a local newspaper may not seem important, but it lends credibility, and can be used to leverage coverage from larger publications.

This time of year tends to be a slow time for news stories, so you need to hit this quick before the news cycle starts ramping up for the beginning of summer. Other good times to hit up the media for coverage are late summer, the week between Christmas and New Year's Day, and shortly after the first of the year. These are times that journalists are scrambling to find stories to fill their publications.



kmk5g said:


> Regarding the trademark, which is lodged with the USPTO, it is in my name, (1) because I thought of it and was first to use it in commerce, which took place prior to the incorporation of SAVE THE FROGS!, and (2) the USPTO application for trademarks required it be in one person's name.


A quick search of the USPTO database disagrees with point #2


> Word Mark COCA-COLA
> Owner (APPLICANT) The Coca-Cola Company CORPORATION DELAWARE One Coca-Cola Plaza Atlanta GEORGIA 30313





kmk5g said:


> Regarding http://savethefrogs.com/cafepress
> This page was conceived of, designed, and is maintained by a SAVE THE FROGS! volunteer. As stated on that site, all our proceeds go to our amphibian conservation efforts. Cafepress does not write checks out in my name, but instead in the name of the organization.


Another bit of unsolicited advice: One of the major factors used in analyzing nonprofit effectiveness is the percentage of donors' dollars that go to cover overhead costs. Cafe Press is about the least cost efficient method of creating promotional items. If you worked with a local printer, a much higher percentage of donors' dollars would go toward frog conservation. 



kmk5g said:


> (2) this forum has required an hour or two of my time tonight. This time could have been spent doing any number of perhaps more crucial tasks; though of course I welcome the discussion.


With all due respect, what tasks are more crucial than publicizing your organization with a group of people that is arguably the most knowledgeable and active in frog conservation of any discussion board on the internet?

The best of luck with your endeavors, and I applaud your willingness to work toward these goals. But I continue to maintain the opinion that your efforts might be more well spent helping an existing organization that already has answered all of these questions I've posed, rather than having to spend crucial time answering them all over again.

Thank you again for spending the time to clear up my concerns,
JIm


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## kmk5g

Hi Jim,

With regards to using Cafepress as opposed to using a local printer:

(1) Cafepress reaches a wider audience, as many people who would never end up at SAVE THE FROGS! end up at Cafepress.

(2) SAVE THE FROGS! only has the funds, manpower and warehouse space to stock so much. Cafepress is print-on-demand, they handle all transactions, and it generates revenue at no time or monetary expense to SAVE THE FROGS!

(3) SAVE THE FROGS! does indeed print certain items:
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts
Our number of items will grow as our logistical infrastucture and finances grow.

With regards to SAVE THE FROGS!' overhead:
We have no offices and therefore pay no rent. I'll also re-iterate that SAVE THE FROGS! has been an entirely volunteer effort, and neither myself nor my volunteers who created cafepress.com/savethefrogs have ever been paid.

Regarding contacting the media: 
I agree 100%. There is nothing in the news now. As I said I have a team of volunteers collecting radio stations and newspapers' contact info and I will start contacting them ASAP. If it has not been done it is because, as you can imagine, I have 325 other things on my list as well. I am the webmaster, fundraiser, account (yes indeed we do have a 501(c)(3) form in review with the IRS, who is incredibly slow to review these things), publicist, marketer, graphic designer, warehouse shipping boy, and a multitude of other things. I also still attempt to write scientific papers. Anybody reading this thread is of course welcome to call their local news agency and tell them to contact me at [email protected] if they wish to interview me.

And yes, I agree that Dendroboard discussions are valuable. As I said, this was my first post to the board. I am glad it has generated some discussion, which I was not expecting.

Regarding the USPTO: A highly respected and experienced lawyer handled the application. 

As for me dissolving SAVE THE FROGS! and working at another organization instead:
(1) Which organization, and in what respect? 

(2) Do they have funds to hire me? None have yet approached me offering me a job (though I have not solicited work from them).

(3) Who then will take care of all the things SAVE THE FROGS! does and has plans to do, for which no other organization has plans? 

Who is giving out scholarships? I can't think of any amphibian conservation organization that has offered a $20,000 Ph.D. scholarship in recent years. My own came from the National Geographic Society and the Eppley Foundation for Research, two organizations with no specific interest in amphibians. 

Who is giving out Conference Travel Grants to students? Did you know that SAVE THE FROGS! is the only organization that is currently offering a travel grant to students so they can present research at the Joint Meeting of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists in July? 

What amphibian conservation organization is hiring lawyers to fight bad laws and bad businesses? The Center for Biological Diversity (NOT an amphibian conservation organization) is the only organization I know of with an amphibian-related lawsuit going (one total lawsuit). 

What other organization has a goal of making the amphibian extinction crisis common knowledge by 2013? No other amphibian conservation organizations have these goals.

(4) Would a rose by any other name not smell as sweet? Why does it matter what name I choose to work under? Personally, I think SAVE THE FROGS! is a great name. It conveys instant meaning and the ordinary person on the street likes it and remembers it. 

You appear to be a professional breeder. Would you think it odd if in this free society, which we are so proud of, I suggested you should be working with FrogFarm? And I don't mean you would be in CHARGE of FrogFarm's operation, I mean you would work FOR FrogFarm. He would be your boss and you would do as he commands. Want to go breed frogs in Costa Rica this winter? "Sorry Jim, we need you here at the FrogFarm. Maybe next winter if you're good." You'd probably think that was ludicrous!

Please also remember that the IUCN, CI, WWF, CBD, Sierra Club, NRDC and a multitude of other great organizations do not focus on amphibians. Should we depend on them to protect amphibians? That is not their mission. They may care about amphibians today, but maybe it would be wolves tomorrow and bears the next day.

Kerry
SAVE THE FROGS!


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## jehitch

kmk5g said:


> Hi Jim,
> SAVE THE FROGS! is incorporated in the Commonwealth of Virginia as a nonprofit, nonstock organization


Dr. Kriger,
I searched for several iterations of the name "Save the Frogs" on the nonprofit database at https://www.npo.tax.virginia.gov and it came back: "Your search found no matching records." What is the exact legal name of your organization?



kmk5g said:


> As for me dissolving SAVE THE FROGS! and working at another organization instead:
> (1) Which organization, and in what respect?
> 
> (2) Do they have funds to hire me? None have yet approached me offering me a job (though I have not solicited work from them).
> 
> (3) Who then will take care of all the things SAVE THE FROGS! does and has plans to do, for which no other organization has plans?


Did you approach any existing organizations before forming your own, asking if they would be interested in the programs you are developing? You are willing to volunteer your services for your organization, but point #2 suggests you would not be willing to do so for an existing organization. Why is this?

Any time you create a new organization, you are creating an additional set of administrative tasks, as indicated when you stated:



kmk5g said:


> If it has not been done it is because, as you can imagine, I have 325 other things on my list as well. I am the webmaster, fundraiser, account (yes indeed we do have a 501(c)(3) form in review with the IRS, who is incredibly slow to review these things), publicist, marketer, graphic designer, warehouse shipping boy, and a multitude of other things. I also still attempt to write scientific papers.


You would not have to be all these things if you developed your programs within an existing organization.



kmk5g said:


> Who is giving out scholarships? I can't think of any amphibian conservation organization that has offered a $20,000 Ph.D. scholarship in recent years. My own came from the National Geographic Society and the Eppley Foundation for Research, two organizations with no specific interest in amphibians.
> 
> Who is giving out Conference Travel Grants to students? Did you know that SAVE THE FROGS! is the only organization that is currently offering a travel grant to students so they can present research at the Joint Meeting of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists in July?
> 
> What amphibian conservation organization is hiring lawyers to fight bad laws and bad businesses? The Center for Biological Diversity (NOT an amphibian conservation organization) is the only organization I know of with an amphibian-related lawsuit going (one total lawsuit).


Can you provide us with a list of the scholarships and travel grants your group has awarded, along with the names of recipients and contact info? I'm not asking for specific amounts per grant, but totals for each category.

Can you provide us with information about the bad laws and bad businesses you have hired lawyers to fight, and what results these lawsuits provided to benefit amphibians?



kmk5g said:


> What other organization has a goal of making the amphibian extinction crisis common knowledge by 2013? No other amphibian conservation organizations have these goals.


About


> Q: Does TWI have an education mission?
> 
> A: Yes, TWI is committed to educating the public about the ongoing amphibian crisis and the importance of maintaining healthy amphibian populations. TWI works with schools and universities through both the Amphibian Steward Network and Operation Frog Pond to get teachers and students directly involved with amphibian conservation. In addition, through collaboration with TWI, Justin Yeager has spearheaded Operation Atelopus, which is producing a documentary about the devastating effects of chytrid fungus on neotropical amphibians.





kmk5g said:


> (4) Would a rose by any other name not smell as sweet? Why does it matter what name I choose to work under? Personally, I think SAVE THE FROGS! is a great name. It conveys instant meaning and the ordinary person on the street likes it and remembers it.


I have no quarrel with the name, my issue is with the duplication of administration (which in a quote above you admit is keeping you from your mission).



kmk5g said:


> You appear to be a professional breeder. Would you think it odd if in this free society, which we are so proud of, I suggested you should be working with FrogFarm? And I don't mean you would be in CHARGE of FrogFarm's operation, I mean you would work FOR FrogFarm. He would be your boss and you would do as he commands. Want to go breed frogs in Costa Rica this winter? "Sorry Jim, we need you here at the FrogFarm. Maybe next winter if you're good." You'd probably think that was ludicrous!


Actually, I breed few species, and am mainly a retailer. So far, a "nonprofit" retailer, although by circumstance rather than design. 

I do work closely with many breeders, and I am mainly supplied by hobbyists who produce more frogs than they can sell within the hobby.

The difference between you and I is that I am not asking people to give me money which must be in part spent to duplicate administrative functions that already exist. If I choose to duplicate the need for administration (whether it is time or money spent), it is my problem and my problem alone.

Again, with all due respect, your last quote is rather telling. You seem to believe it's more important to be 'in CHARGE" than to get things done. I've seen this over and over in my years as a journalist: people decide they have to do something to solve a problem, and rather than searching out existing organizations to which they can provide assistance, they decide to start their own organization.

As an extreme example: after hurricane Katrina my newspaper was inundated with ad hoc groups collecting items for disaster relief - even though the Red Cross and Salvation Army said over and over that what was needed was monetary donations - the items could be purchased on site rather than spend money trucking them down. One group went so far as to organize a caravan of cars to deliver the items when the Red Cross refused to deliver them to a specific location. So, in an attempt to help, these people sent a dozen cars with drivers inexperienced in disaster situations into an area where the few roads that were intact were needed by actual disaster professionals. Once they arrived, they had to be fed and fueled for the return trip, using up commodities desperately needed for relief in the area.

I'm not saying your efforts equal this example, I am simply using it as an extreme analogy to point out the problems that arise when people ignore the assets available to them, and attempt to go it alone.

Again, the best of luck in your endeavors,

Jim


----------



## Z5guy

me gods you people are cold, so what if he dident introduce himself? He has now and you still find something to pick on; I for one think it was no big deal that he dident do it right away and I think dr. K's later posts have done everything to tell you he's not just some guy who wants your money. I for one agree with him in saying that groups like Twi and others are not doing enough to save frogs world wide (but I'm saying that with all due respect, to date twi has been the best out there) you tell him that his first job should have been to get the word out about his organization but I dident even know twi was around till a couple of weeks ago, where's there advertisment? And one of you guys first concerns was maybe he should support a group like twi instead of makeing a new one, say what? Conservation organizations are like chocolate cake, I could eat them all day and I'm pretty sure they can play nice with each other and work toward the same goal, saveing our hoppy little friends and please before you begin (and I know you will anyway) please reframe from flameing all other me just because I have only a couple of posts.


----------



## Scott

I won't flame you.

But Spock would. 

s


----------



## jehitch

Z5guy said:


> me gods you people are cold, so what if he dident introduce himself? He has now and you still find something to pick on; I for one think it was no big deal that he dident do it right away and I think dr. K's later posts have done everything to tell you he's not just some guy who wants your money. I for one agree with him in saying that groups like Twi and others are not doing enough to save frogs world wide (but I'm saying that with all due respect, to date twi has been the best out there) you tell him that his first job should have been to get the word out about his organization but I dident even know twi was around till a couple of weeks ago, where's there advertisment? And one of you guys first concerns was maybe he should support a group like twi instead of makeing a new one, say what? Conservation organizations are like chocolate cake, I could eat them all day and I'm pretty sure they can play nice with each other and work toward the same goal, saveing our hoppy little friends and please before you begin (and I know you will anyway) please reframe from flameing all other me just because I have only a couple of posts.


To take your dietary analogy to its conclusion:

Let's say you eat eight pieces of chocolate cake a day.

You can buy eight individual size pieces of chocolate cake for $1.49 each, costing you $11.92 per day.

Or, you can buy an entire cake, and cut it into eight pieces for $5.99.

Even if you pay a few pennies each for ziploc bags to put the pieces in so you can eat them wherever you are, you are still going to save more than $5 a day. With that savings, you could buy an extra chocolate cake every two days, increase the amount of cake you eat by 50% and have money left over for Pepto Bismol.

The difference between your analogy and the issue being discussed is that there will always be more chocolate cake.

Jim


----------



## elmoisfive

"No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat*" - Sichuan proverb *

Bill


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## Scott

OK - I should've noticed that the Spock in question is "Bad Spock". Bad Spock would not have been disappointed in the logic, he would have just killed the person.

My bad.

s


elmoisfive said:


> "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat*" - Sichuan proverb *


----------



## Jayson745

I hope the interrogation has run it course. 

I think more separate organizations have a good side too. Sense everyone is comparing things to food for some reason, I like mcdonalds chicken nuggets better than burger kings, but like burger kings fries better and they serve chilli which I cant get enough of. There is enough room for more than one fast food chain. Not to mention they are good at different things, and if something happens to one, there are backups. Not putting all your eggs in one basket is a good thing sometimes to. Even if it cost a little more to buy that extra basket.

I say welcome SAVETHEFROGS! And good luck with all your future endeavors.


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## kyle1745

Well put, but BKs fries suck...


----------



## kmk5g

Dear Jim (jehitch),
My previous posts in this thread provide links to many webpages and documents that prove the integrity of SAVE THE FROGS! Did you read the Articles of Incorporation that is easily downloadable at the top of the SAVE THE FROGS! Who We Are page? Do you think I would post a faked version of a legally binding document in a visible online location? The VA State Corporation Commission is the correct department for you to call, should you have questions. Have you looked through our Who We Are page yet? And do you think AmphibiaWeb/UCBerkeley would put us on their homepage if we were fake?

***************************
You ask: "Did you approach any existing organizations before forming your own, asking if they would be interested in the programs you are developing?"

No (though see point 4 below). 

(1) I have a Ph.D. and am well acquainted with what is happening in the world of amphibian conservation, as I have attended and presented at national and international herpetological conferences for many years. I will act independently when necessary to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

(2) My philosophy is that you don't tell people what you are going to do, you show them what you've done.

(3) This is the USA and is a free society that was founded on the ideals that if you want to do something and you believe in it and you work hard, then you not only can do it, you should do it. I am an American citizen, and I need nobody's permission to start a nonprofit, just as you did not need FrogFarm's approval before you started your business.

(3) What organizations do you refer to? Amphibian Ark? There is virtually zero overlap in what we do. SAVE THE FROGS! does not captive breed. TreeWalkers? According to their website, half their mission is captive breeding, and half is building frog ponds. Again, no overlap. And honestly, I had never heard of them until I built my website's Relevant Links page, (which is the most thorough of its kind available). I am not familiar with any of their Directors (which of course is not to say they are not qualified), which I assume is because they must be from breeding backgrounds whereas I am from an academia background. Of course, all organizations attempt some degree of education. 

(4) The Amphibian Conservation Action Plan (ACAP 2005) states that to successfully conserve amphibian populations it will require $400million each 5yr period (and that document forgot to mention or budget for education!). The IUCN/CI/ASG was charged with raising this money. 

So 2 years after the ACAP was released (6 months prior to the incoroporation of SAVE THE FROGS!), I talked to those people and I asked 2 questions:

Q: How many people are working on raising this money?
A: 2

Q: How much money has been raised over the last 2 years?
A: $400,000

I have not told you all this but I am also a math teacher. $400,000/$400,000,000 = 0.1% of the necessary money, and this with the backing of a major international body. How much more impetus to take matters into one’s own hands does one need than that? 

****************************************
Jim, you say
"You are willing to volunteer your services for your organization, but point #2 suggests you would not be willing to do so for an existing organization. Why is this?"

I do plenty of volunteer work for non-frog issues. Why would you even expect that of me though when I clearly stated in previous posts in this thread that I have spent 5 months of my full-time effort working unpaid for SAVE THE FROGS!? I am not independently wealthy. Will you let me sleep on your couch Jim? I do like Michigan, and I can’t pay rent because I spend my time saving frogs even though I could be making $60,000 lecturing. (Sorry, I had to ask!)

Do you know that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread not a single one has contacted me offering their volunteer services? Who here actually cares about frogs? Someone must. How much though? [email protected]

*****************************
Jim, you say:
“Any time you create a new organization, you are creating an additional set of administrative tasks, as indicated when you stated…”

When our country’s forefathers founded this great nation in 1776 (they could have just let the King of England administer as there was already a British Commonwealth running our country), their decision to go solo created a lot of additional administrative tasks. The two that spring to my mind are that they had to spend precious time writing a Declaration of Independence and a Constitution with a Bill of Rights. Who here doubts that the time writing those documents was well spent?

***********************************
As for your suggestion that I like being in charge more than accomplishing goals:
(1) I do like working for myself. What’s wrong with that? I spent 21 years of my life in schools and universities, do I not deserve the opportunity to fulfill my dreams in whatever manner that entails? Do you want to work for FrogFarm? Petco? PetSmart? You don’t. I take the blame if it fails and I take the credit if it succeeds. I like challenges.

(2) SAVE THE FROGS! was not created so as to be an outlet to fulfill my egomaniacal urges if that’s what you are getting at. I have clearly detailed in many ways in this thread the necessity for what SAVE THE FROGS! does and intends to do.

(3) Would you rather have a leader or a follower in charge of saving the world? I view my job as saving the world. When the frogs die, we die.

**************************************************
As for you asking how many lawyers we’ve hired, etc., I have clearly stated in the above posts that: 
(1) those things are our GOALS, and
(2) those goals require many millions of dollars, which we do not yet have.

How long will it take us to accomplish these goals?
Based on the fact that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread, not one has donated to SAVE THE FROGS! (at least not after having clicked through from Dendroboard), I’m guessing it may be a while. 2,000 threatened amphibian species out there. Pollution, pesticides, global warming, invasive species, infectious diseases spread by humans, over-harvesting for the pet and food trades, habitat destruction. An uneducated public. A society that does not value wilderness or wildlife. Third world countries that have no environmental standards and no means with which to implement them even if they existed.

Who reading this post cares enough about frogs to go right now to the savethefrogs.com donations page Donate to SAVE THE FROGS! | Nonprofit | Environmental Charityand donate $10 to SAVE THE FROGS! ? 

Who can spare $20 for an educational Frogs of Australia poster that they can give to their kid’s school, or $25 for a 100% organic cotton SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirt featuring the world’s coolest frog, the Southern Orange-eyed Treefrog, to ensure that SAVE THE FROGS! has the funds to do all the things that need to be done to protect amphibians: educating our uninformed, uneducated public; fighting bad laws; fighting bad businesses and corrupt government agencies that sell our land to the highest bidder and let the pesticide companies poison our air and water; buying critical habitat; funding scientific research; providing scholarships; creating a herpetological community 10 times larger than it currently is?
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts

Who reading this post has ten minutes to go apply for a SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card featuring Dendrobates tinctorius, which on top of being the single most insanely awesome looking Visa card on Planet Earth, earns SAVE THE FROGS! a $50 bonus when activated and used for the first time? Can anyone here spare ten minutes? If so, please have a look at: SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card No annual fee, no cost to you.

Who here can go to the Save The Frogs Day (April 28th, 2009) webpage and then tell their kid’s teachers about it? Did you know about the 1st Annual Frog Art Contest and 1st Annual Frog Poetry Contest? Who can print out the flyers on those pages and have their kids put them up at school? Did you know the winning entries will be used to publish a book of frog art and frog poetry, with all proceeds benefiting SAVE THE FROGS’ legally recognized nonprofit amphibian conservation goals? Plus there are cash prizes, funded from my own pocket. Each of those pages has a donations page. You could help fund the jackpot (currently $500 for each contest). The higher the jackpot, the faster word will propogate through the internet, the more people will learn about frog declines, and the higher the quality of the entries:
Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009
Frog Art Contest | Cash Prizes
Frog Poetry Contest | Cash Prizes

Does anybody here care enough about frogs to email five of their best friends to tell them to check out SAVE THE FROGS!? Did you know our How to Help page lists about 50 ways people can help? It’s far more thorough than any I’ve ever seen elsewhere: How to Help Save Frogs

Who here can call or write their local newspaper or radio or TV station telling them that amphibians are the most threatened group of animals on the planet, that nearly one third of the world’s 6,450 species are threatened with extinction, that 200 species have already disappeared in the last 30 years, and that SAVE THE FROGS! is able to provide them with more information in the form of a free interview? And that they should do this to help us promote Save The Frogs Day (April 28th) a global event in which hopefully thousands of schools worldwide will participate… [email protected]

Every adult reading this reply has gotten so far into this thread and into this message that two things are clear: (1) you care about frogs and (2) you’re not working three jobs in order to feed the kids. You do have either time or money. If the members of Dendroboard can’t contribute either their time or their money to SAVE THE FROGS!, then amphibian conservation surely is doomed.

Sincerely,
Kerry Kriger, Ph.D.
Founder & Executive Director of SAVE THE FROGS!
Kerry Kriger

“I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see...A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.” 
--Neo, The Matrix


----------



## Ontariofrogger1973

p.s isnt that a Dendrobates azureaus on the credit card?


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## kmk5g

Species was split in to azureus and tinctorius, and this is tinctorius.

Synonymy by Wollenberg, Veith, Noonan, and Lötters, 2006, Copeia, 2006: 623-629


----------



## kyle1745

Kerry,

First let me apologize for our quick to react, over passionate members. They really mean no harm. We do though as stated get some people attempted to scam us and or others. With that said many are very passionate about groups like TWI and etc which they are actively involved in.

I tend to lean on the side that 1-2-3-4 groups are not going to solve these issues, and that any and all help should be welcomed. I welcome you and your organization to the site, and in my limited time have checked out the site which seems rather legit to me.

On a lighter note, so your saying an azureus is a tinc again? What the? I thought it had been finalized the other way. Its a tinc, its not, its a tinc its not...  Do we really know?


----------



## kmk5g

Hi Kyle, No problem, I'm not easily offended and I understand the root of the debate as I've heard it all before from various locations (just not all at once!). 









SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card

Regarding azureus vs tinctorius, I am not a taxonomist, so I sent the above photo to Dr. Crawford of the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute (dna.ac) a couple weeks ago. This is his email to me, in full:
"That's correct, it's "tinctorius". Azureus is just a tinctorius that losts its spots...

Synonymy by Wollenberg, Veith, Noonan, and Lötters, 2006, Copeia, 2006: 623-629.

Rock on!!!! Keep up the great work!!!
-AJC"

Kerry


----------



## Smashtoad

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that all of these anthropomorphical organizations get their way, and all of the frogs and the land they live on is finally protected...what do you think their next step would be?

No exotic pets of any kind for anyone.


----------



## Roadrunner

First off I`d like to apologize. None of my boss` liked me when I started questioning thei methods and what and how they were going to accomplish thei goals. I don`t know how to ask where it would sound nice, but I mean no offense.

I volunteered and you didn`t answer my questions, maybe you missed my post. It asked about your views about the pet trade. Your statement about the pet trade made me wonder your stance and feelings and agenda w/ the pet trade.
And that`s pretty accusatory and arrogant saying we don`t care about frogs when some of us haven`t had a vacation in 10 years because they`ve been trying to conserve them in captivity, since other countries really don`t listen to us about putting frogs over their building agenda`s. Also I have seen the donations to these other groups and this group of people is very generous to conservation programs. Maybe it`s the way you`ve handled yourself here that has led to the volunteer base you describe. 
That hits home because I used to be a field researcher and gave it up because I didn`t think it was doing any good w/ the projects I worked on. Although I LOVED doing fieldwork I left it because I`d do better saving frogs with what I`m doing now. I didn`t think it was or could be done fast enough to save them. Thus my "job" saving frogs. I couldv`e made a lot more money doing a 60,000$ a year lecture circuit too, if I had finished my degrees. So since I took a lower pay to save frogs MYSELF, I take offense to that statement.

Now on to the lawyers and school grants. How will this help? I`ve worked a lot of field research jobs and I didn`t really see a lack of people interested, only a lack of jobs/positions/funding for research for those people. How will putting more people into the education system save frogs?

Lawyers. How many cases have been won? How much is paid to the lawyers if they don`t win the case? What cases can you make a good argument that would stop business` in this economy? It seems that a hi dollar amt for lawyers and cases not won could potentially take away all your funds w/ nothing accomplished. 
I`m sorry to give you the third degree about this but I do donate a lot of what I make to saving frogs and since I do, I want to know exactly where my money is going. I quit being a researcher because I didn`t see enough movement and I won`t donate if I think my money is going into a black hole. This is why I support who I do, because there are other orgs that are aligned w/ my work and my view on how to save frogs till we figure out what we can, if anything, do about saving their env. and habitat.
Aaron Handzlik
Aaron`s Frog Farm
P.S. you can always stay on my couch. My home is always open to pople trying to save frogs.

Also


kmk5g said:


> Dear Jim (jehitch),
> My previous posts in this thread provide links to many webpages and documents that prove the integrity of SAVE THE FROGS! Did you read the Articles of Incorporation that is easily downloadable at the top of the SAVE THE FROGS! Who We Are page? Do you think I would post a faked version of a legally binding document in a visible online location? The VA State Corporation Commission is the correct department for you to call, should you have questions. Have you looked through our Who We Are page yet? And do you think AmphibiaWeb/UCBerkeley would put us on their homepage if we were fake?
> 
> ***************************
> You ask: "Did you approach any existing organizations before forming your own, asking if they would be interested in the programs you are developing?"
> 
> No (though see point 4 below).
> 
> (1) I have a Ph.D. and am well acquainted with what is happening in the world of amphibian conservation, as I have attended and presented at national and international herpetological conferences for many years. I will act independently when necessary to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.
> 
> (2) My philosophy is that you don't tell people what you are going to do, you show them what you've done.
> 
> (3) This is the USA and is a free society that was founded on the ideals that if you want to do something and you believe in it and you work hard, then you not only can do it, you should do it. I am an American citizen, and I need nobody's permission to start a nonprofit, just as you did not need FrogFarm's approval before you started your business.
> 
> (3) What organizations do you refer to? Amphibian Ark? There is virtually zero overlap in what we do. SAVE THE FROGS! does not captive breed. TreeWalkers? According to their website, half their mission is captive breeding, and half is building frog ponds. Again, no overlap. And honestly, I had never heard of them until I built my website's Relevant Links page, (which is the most thorough of its kind available). I am not familiar with any of their Directors (which of course is not to say they are not qualified), which I assume is because they must be from breeding backgrounds whereas I am from an academia background. Of course, all organizations attempt some degree of education.
> 
> (4) The Amphibian Conservation Action Plan (ACAP 2005) states that to successfully conserve amphibian populations it will require $400million each 5yr period (and that document forgot to mention or budget for education!). The IUCN/CI/ASG was charged with raising this money.
> 
> So 2 years after the ACAP was released (6 months prior to the incoroporation of SAVE THE FROGS!), I talked to those people and I asked 2 questions:
> 
> Q: How many people are working on raising this money?
> A: 2
> 
> Q: How much money has been raised over the last 2 years?
> A: $400,000
> 
> I have not told you all this but I am also a math teacher. $400,000/$400,000,000 = 0.1% of the necessary money, and this with the backing of a major international body. How much more impetus to take matters into one’s own hands does one need than that?
> 
> ****************************************
> Jim, you say
> "You are willing to volunteer your services for your organization, but point #2 suggests you would not be willing to do so for an existing organization. Why is this?"
> 
> I do plenty of volunteer work for non-frog issues. Why would you even expect that of me though when I clearly stated in previous posts in this thread that I have spent 5 months of my full-time effort working unpaid for SAVE THE FROGS!? I am not independently wealthy. Will you let me sleep on your couch Jim? I do like Michigan, and I can’t pay rent because I spend my time saving frogs even though I could be making $60,000 lecturing. (Sorry, I had to ask!)
> 
> Do you know that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread not a single one has contacted me offering their volunteer services? Who here actually cares about frogs? Someone must. How much though? [email protected]
> 
> *****************************
> Jim, you say:
> “Any time you create a new organization, you are creating an additional set of administrative tasks, as indicated when you stated…”
> 
> When our country’s forefathers founded this great nation in 1776 (they could have just let the King of England administer as there was already a British Commonwealth running our country), their decision to go solo created a lot of additional administrative tasks. The two that spring to my mind are that they had to spend precious time writing a Declaration of Independence and a Constitution with a Bill of Rights. Who here doubts that the time writing those documents was well spent?
> 
> ***********************************
> As for your suggestion that I like being in charge more than accomplishing goals:
> (1) I do like working for myself. What’s wrong with that? I spent 21 years of my life in schools and universities, do I not deserve the opportunity to fulfill my dreams in whatever manner that entails? Do you want to work for FrogFarm? Petco? PetSmart? You don’t. I take the blame if it fails and I take the credit if it succeeds. I like challenges.
> 
> (2) SAVE THE FROGS! was not created so as to be an outlet to fulfill my egomaniacal urges if that’s what you are getting at. I have clearly detailed in many ways in this thread the necessity for what SAVE THE FROGS! does and intends to do.
> 
> (3) Would you rather have a leader or a follower in charge of saving the world? I view my job as saving the world. When the frogs die, we die.
> 
> **************************************************
> As for you asking how many lawyers we’ve hired, etc., I have clearly stated in the above posts that:
> (1) those things are our GOALS, and
> (2) those goals require many millions of dollars, which we do not yet have.
> 
> How long will it take us to accomplish these goals?
> Based on the fact that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread, not one has donated to SAVE THE FROGS! (at least not after having clicked through from Dendroboard), I’m guessing it may be a while. 2,000 threatened amphibian species out there. Pollution, pesticides, global warming, invasive species, infectious diseases spread by humans, over-harvesting for the pet and food trades, habitat destruction. An uneducated public. A society that does not value wilderness or wildlife. Third world countries that have no environmental standards and no means with which to implement them even if they existed.
> 
> Who reading this post cares enough about frogs to go right now to the savethefrogs.com donations page Donate to SAVE THE FROGS! | Nonprofit | Environmental Charityand donate $10 to SAVE THE FROGS! ?
> 
> Who can spare $20 for an educational Frogs of Australia poster that they can give to their kid’s school, or $25 for a 100% organic cotton SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirt featuring the world’s coolest frog, the Southern Orange-eyed Treefrog, to ensure that SAVE THE FROGS! has the funds to do all the things that need to be done to protect amphibians: educating our uninformed, uneducated public; fighting bad laws; fighting bad businesses and corrupt government agencies that sell our land to the highest bidder and let the pesticide companies poison our air and water; buying critical habitat; funding scientific research; providing scholarships; creating a herpetological community 10 times larger than it currently is?
> Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts
> 
> Who reading this post has ten minutes to go apply for a SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card featuring Dendrobates tinctorius, which on top of being the single most insanely awesome looking Visa card on Planet Earth, earns SAVE THE FROGS! a $50 bonus when activated and used for the first time? Can anyone here spare ten minutes? If so, please have a look at: SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card No annual fee, no cost to you.
> 
> Who here can go to the Save The Frogs Day (April 28th, 2009) webpage and then tell their kid’s teachers about it? Did you know about the 1st Annual Frog Art Contest and 1st Annual Frog Poetry Contest? Who can print out the flyers on those pages and have their kids put them up at school? Did you know the winning entries will be used to publish a book of frog art and frog poetry, with all proceeds benefiting SAVE THE FROGS’ legally recognized nonprofit amphibian conservation goals? Plus there are cash prizes, funded from my own pocket. Each of those pages has a donations page. You could help fund the jackpot (currently $500 for each contest). The higher the jackpot, the faster word will propogate through the internet, the more people will learn about frog declines, and the higher the quality of the entries:
> Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009
> Frog Art Contest | Cash Prizes
> Frog Poetry Contest | Cash Prizes
> 
> Does anybody here care enough about frogs to email five of their best friends to tell them to check out SAVE THE FROGS!? Did you know our How to Help page lists about 50 ways people can help? It’s far more thorough than any I’ve ever seen elsewhere: How to Help Save Frogs
> 
> Who here can call or write their local newspaper or radio or TV station telling them that amphibians are the most threatened group of animals on the planet, that nearly one third of the world’s 6,450 species are threatened with extinction, that 200 species have already disappeared in the last 30 years, and that SAVE THE FROGS! is able to provide them with more information in the form of a free interview? And that they should do this to help us promote Save The Frogs Day (April 28th) a global event in which hopefully thousands of schools worldwide will participate… [email protected]
> 
> Every adult reading this reply has gotten so far into this thread and into this message that two things are clear: (1) you care about frogs and (2) you’re not working three jobs in order to feed the kids. You do have either time or money. If the members of Dendroboard can’t contribute either their time or their money to SAVE THE FROGS!, then amphibian conservation surely is doomed.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Kerry Kriger, Ph.D.
> Founder & Executive Director of SAVE THE FROGS!
> Kerry Kriger
> 
> “I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see...A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.”
> --Neo, The Matrix


----------



## elmoisfive

Smashtoad said:


> Let's just say, for arguments sake, that all of these anthropomorphical organizations get their way, and all of the frogs and the land they live on is finally protected...what do you think their next step would be?
> 
> No exotic pets of any kind for anyone.


Well I don't want to take this discussion off topic but IF and that is a big if we somehow put a stop to destruction of habitat and loss of species, thus stabilizing a major element of the ecosystem that sustains us all then losing my ability to keep frogs (or any other exotic pets) would be a small price to pay. It really would as the alternative is a steady degradation of the planet to the point of marginal maybe even dubious habitability (at least by our species).

Then again I'm much more interested in the world my children and their offspring inherit than my own personal gratification. 

Bill


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## elmoisfive

Aaron and others,

Look upon Dr. Kriger's comments as a call to action as opposed to personal attack. As I reflect upon this whole thread it has become too much about personalities and their viewpoints as opposed to substance.

Channel your energy into making a difference as I know many of you do. It's a good thing. 

Bill


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## Roadrunner

This is constructive criticism. If he attacks people(saying no one has donated don`t you guys care about frogs) does not put him on anyones good side. A call to action would be better worded. I`m only trying to help him meld his organization. You know I`m only about saving amphibians and donate a lot, as do you. He seems to have a thick skin so maybe we should look at our posts as toughening his org. If he can win us over he`s hit a very tough and questioning group. If he sees that some things MAY not be worth focusing efforts on and focus` more towards what works this will only strengthen the fight. 
I`m not accusing him of being bunk just gathering info to figure out how much(what percent) I`d want to donate. I`ve thought about saving animals day and nite for a long, long time. I merely putting his org in order of what I think are the best orgs to support.

I haven`t read very many other posts from members here so I can`t say if they were attacks.


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## Roadrunner

I agree, I`d give it all up right this second if we could do that. I wouldn`t however give it up till I was sure they were safe elsewhere.



elmoisfive said:


> Well I don't want to take this discussion off topic but IF and that is a big if we somehow put a stop to destruction of habitat and loss of species, thus stabilizing a major element of the ecosystem that sustains us all then losing my ability to keep frogs (or any other exotic pets) would be a small price to pay. It really would as the alternative is a steady degradation of the planet to the point of marginal maybe even dubious habitability (at least by our species).
> 
> Then again I'm much more interested in the world my children and their offspring inherit than my own personal gratification.
> 
> Bill


----------



## jehitch

kmk5g said:


> Do you know that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread not a single one has contacted me offering their volunteer services?
> Based on the fact that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread, not one has donated to SAVE THE FROGS! (at least not after having clicked through from Dendroboard)...


Perhaps this should tell you something? If you cannot convince the most passionate group of amphibian lovers to donate, you have very a serious problem. 

All of the questions I have asked of you, I ask of every organization that solicits my donations; If your answers were compelling, you would have seen donations pouring in from the audience of this thread.

In my professional opinion (as a journalist who has spent 25 years analyzing the effectiveness of nonprofit organizations) you are not equipped to reach your rather high goals. I believe you would have a much better chance of reaching your goals if you concentrated on program administration, and left organizational administration to those who have already spent years figuring it out.

In other words, your best chance of success would be to ask a well-established organization if it would be willing to let you administer your program under its administrative umbrella.

Best of luck,
Jim


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## jehitch

BTW: If you ever visit West Michigan, my couch is always open, if you don't mind sharing it with a 75 lb. German shepherd/sneaky neighbor's dog mix. But fair warning: she hogs more than her fair share of the space.


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## Roadrunner

Amphibian Conservation Policy Awards
Amphibian conservation will not be successful until proper laws are enacted to (1) protect crucial frog habitats such as small ephemeral wetlands, which traditionally receive almost no legal protection; (2) regulate pesticide use; (3) oversee the trade of amphibians to ensure that the harvests are sustainable; (4) implement appropriate quarantine measures to ensure that imported amphibians are disease-free; (5) ensure that amphibian conservation programs are sufficiently funded; and (6) control global warming. These awards will be given to political scientists focused on devising methods to enact such legislature.

Your links are out of date for the trade of amphibians and disease free. Is there an update where I could view your views on the pet trade?


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## Philsuma

The timing of this endeavor cannot be worse due to the economic crisis of the planet...not country....planet.

Money is tight and if retail consumerism is suffering, you can bet that conservation donations have very litte chance.

Sad but true...


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## flyangler18

Smashtoad said:


> Let's just say, for arguments sake, that all of these anthropomorphical organizations get their way, and all of the frogs and the land they live on is finally protected...what do you think their next step would be?
> 
> No exotic pets of any kind for anyone.


At the risk of pissing off some frogger friends , that would be just fine with me, frankly.


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## Smashtoad

flyangler18 said:


> At the risk of pissing off some frogger friends , that would be just fine with me, frankly.


I can respect that...but don't feel the same way. For those making posts about global warming...FYI...Al calls it "climate change" now...mainly because the planet is cooling. See...they have these things called thermometers...and...well, they're going the wrong direction for Al. See, if it wasn't cooling, he'd still be calling it global warming.

Anyway...being as though this is a science based website, can one of the global warming proponents explain to me why Al won't publicly debate anyone on the issue...and why the thousands of (actual) climatologists that showed up in Poland recently to decry this insane power grab got almost zero press coverage? That's curious, isn't it? The debate is supposedly over, yet climatologists all over the world can get little media support to voice their opinions in an ACTUAL debate. When were those debates anyway? I must have missed them. 

He will, however, lecture 12 year olds anytime he gets the chance about how they know more about it than their own parents. Hmmm...Hitler did that too. Actually...so did Mussolini...and radical Muslim fundamentalists....the list goes on and on and on...it's called fascism. Liberals love to scream fascism, and they don't even know what it is.

It is about controlling your lives, folks. The global warming crap is gonna slowly go away...because no one cares...and because it is just that...crap. And as long as someone can afford mahogany and teak...their gonna cut it down.

The beautiful thing is...wood grows back.


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## Philsuma

uh....wow....

Who' is "Al" ? 

This website?...you are refering to the Dendroboard Forum, I take it, ....is anything but scientific.

It's a hobbyist forum.....


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## Philsuma

flyangler18 said:


> At the risk of pissing off some frogger friends , that would be just fine with me, frankly.


 
Wot's your view on Zoos, Jason?


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## Marty71

I'm guessing Al is Al Gore, but it's only a guess. I am not on a first name basis with Al. 

This thread is going painfully off track to the point where I can only assume the thudding sounds I hear are every conservationist banging their head on their desk. We really should leave the global warming/political debates to the lounge where they can wind on for 10-15 pages until they are mercifully locked.


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## kmk5g

Smashtoad: You inspire me to teach as many kids about the environmental crisis as possible.

FrogFarm: I have a paper in press in the journal EcoHealth entitled: "Chytridiomycosis, amphibian extinctions, and lessons for the prevention of future panzootics." When it is published next month, I will post it here along with the reply it elicited, and my reply to that reply.

You say "Now on to the lawyers and school grants. How will this help? I've worked a lot of field research jobs and I didn`t really see a lack of people interested, only a lack of jobs/positions/funding for research for those people." 

FrogFarm, with regards to grants I believe you thoroughly answered your own question. Regarding lawyers, I know you like the mountain yellow legged frog. Did you read the articles I cited on the Mountain Yellow Legged Frog at the start of this thread? The Centre for Biological Diversity currently has a lawsuit against the USFWS to force them to stop their trout stocking program, as that is one of the primary threats to this frog. Do you think this one lawsuit is the only one needed? Do you think pesticide, logging, mining, construction and oil companies will voluntarily regulate their activities? Do you think the coal sludge producers care about frogs? 

My questioning of this audience was not saying people don't care about frogs, it was, as 'elmoisfive' stated, a call to action. As Jim says, "If you cannot convince the most passionate group of amphibian lovers to donate, you have very a serious problem." Exactly Jim, it's just that the problem is all of ours.

"If your answers were compelling, you would have seen donations pouring in from the audience of this thread." A wonderful thought in theory, but the last few days have proven it dead wrong unfortunately. I'm sure the readers of this thread care about frogs. However, like 99.99999% of humans, they (1) vastly underestimate the problem frogs face, and (2) vastly overestimate what is being done to save them. 

Did you know that the Amphibian Ark, Jeff Corwin's world famous Amphibian Ark, the primary captive frog breeders on the planet, the group charged with saving the world's most vulnerable frog species (and they do a good job given their resources), did you know they have the equivalent of 2.5 full-time paid staff members? 

Did you know that the IUCN/CI/Amphibian Specialist Group, charged with raising $400 million dollars, has 2 paid staff members, and as I said, had after 2 years raised only 0.1% of their goal?

Did you know that TreeWalkers has no paid staff members? 

Did you know that SAVE THE FROGS! has no paid staff members? 

Did you know that I just named every major groups involved in amphibian conservation? 

So let's do the math: 2 + 2.5 equals 4.5 total paid staff working to stave off the largest mass extinction crisis in 65 million years.

Do you still think the money is flowing in to any group? Do you think amphibian conservation is cheap? A PCR test to check for chytrid costs the average scientist $40...that's for one swab! (Though you can read my paper entitled "Cost efficiency in the detection of chytridiomycosis using PCR assay" here.)

So if you really think amphibian conservation is going well and that people on Dendroboard or any members of the ordinary public are forking out cash to any amphibian conservation group, you're wrong. That's the bottom line. 

Amphibian conservation is failing. 

If you donate $10 right now and take a gamble on SAVE THE FROGS!, I can guarantee I'll do my best to change that. 

Plus I'll send you a free savethefrogs.com bumper sticker so how can you go wrong?
Donate to SAVE THE FROGS! | Nonprofit | Environmental Charity

1,000 people giving ten dollars each goes a long way. Be a part of it.

Sincerely,
Dr. Kerry Kriger
SAVE THE FROGS! Founder & Executive Director 
Ecologist
Couchsurfer
Unpaid Employee 
Seeks Your Assistance
Not Seeking New Employer
Kerry Kriger


----------



## Roadrunner

FrogFarm, with regards to grants I believe you thoroughly answered your own question. 

No, not really, how is 10 fold the amount of researchers going to solve anything if none of them can get a job because there is no money to employ them all? Your 20,000 scholarships, sorry I misspoke, grants are needed.

You forgot Mark Pepper who is selling captive bred frogs w/in the pet trade to employ people in the forests of Peru to save the land he has bought and set aside because of an amphibian breeding program, directly saving their habitat from logging.

Regarding lawyers, I know you like the mountain yellow legged frog. Did you read the articles I cited on the Mountain Yellow Legged Frog at the start of this thread? The Centre for Biological Diversity currently has a lawsuit against the USFWS to force them to stop their trout stocking program, as that is one of the primary threats to this frog. Do you think this one lawsuit is the only one needed? Do you think pesticide, logging, mining, construction and oil companies will voluntarily regulate their activities? Do you think the coal sludge producers care about frogs? 
No, but let`s see if you win this one. I have no faith in judges putting frogs over rec dollars right now or over creating new jobs. I think other orgs don`t put money towards this because there is a long line of losses saying it`s not the best way to spend your conservation dollars. Maybe I`m wrong.

I`d at least like an idea that your not trying to restrict the pet trade into extinction. Other than that I can wait for the paper. Your statement about the next unknown pandemic not being able to be tested for, since chytrid wasn`t discovered till 98, and your stance on quarantine and tested to be disease free before being allowed into the country. The logical following statement is that the pet industry would be illegal, you couldn`t live up to the disease free standard because we have no test for the next unknown disease? Please correct me if my logic is wrong.


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## MonarchzMan

Hey Dr. Kriger,

I came across your site a week or so ago when I was looking for grants to fund my research. I'll be honest in saying that I was a little dissuaded with your site and at the time, decided to keep on moving elsewhere. If I might suggest something, it would be to rework the site slightly and make it look more professional. It is as Jim initially said that it looks like it was just put together. So I would recommend making it look a bit more professional. I think that that would help quite a bit with public perception.

I think that more groups can be good and bad, personally. The more division in groups means the less cohesiveness and connection between groups. I know that TWI is trying to work with Amphibian Ark, and I think that it would help quite a bit if you sought to work with them as well. The more heads we can pool together, the better off the frogs will be in the end. And that's what it should be about.

I look forward to seeing how your site evolves and sincerely wish you luck on your success. I also commend your committment to the cause and trying to show the importance of science to the frogs both in the wild and in the hobby. Unfortunately, I get the impression that it isn't appreciated as much as it should be. If grants are still being offered, I'd love to hear more information about that. Feel free to PM me or email me at [email protected]


----------



## jehitch

kmk5g said:


> My questioning of this audience was not saying people don't care about frogs, it was, as 'elmoisfive' stated, a call to action. As Jim says, "If you cannot convince the most passionate group of amphibian lovers to donate, you have very a serious problem." Exactly Jim, it's just that the problem is all of ours.
> 
> "If your answers were compelling, you would have seen donations pouring in from the audience of this thread." A wonderful thought in theory, but the last few days have proven it dead wrong unfortunately. I'm sure the readers of this thread care about frogs. However, like 99.99999% of humans, they (1) vastly underestimate the problem frogs face, and (2) vastly overestimate what is being done to save them.


The failure in your logic is that this group of people has shown a strong propensity to donate both money and time to other conservation organizations. Yet you have been unable to convince them to donate to YOUR conservation organization despite numerous pleas over several days. It's quite a stretch to argue that the fault lies with your audience rather than yourself.

Jim


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## kmk5g

Jim
You say "It's quite a stretch to argue that the fault lies with your audience rather than yourself." It's not a stretch at all. I clearly demonstrated that there are no amphibian conservation organizations who have been even remotely successful at raising funds. Ponder my twice-stated fact that the group that the worldwide herpetological community charged with raising $400 million dollars, a group with the backing of major international decades-old infrastructure, they had raised only 0.1% of the money when last we spoke. Not one of your group members can even spare $10 to help an organization run by someone who is dedicated enough to work without pay for 5 months, and pony up all startup costs from their own bank. I worked 70hrs a week for 4 yrs during my PhD for about $4/hr, and I published 12 highly-cited papers in the same amount of time that most PhD students publish 2 papers. And you still don't trust my credentials or dedication enough to spare $10.

MonarchMan, 
You say the site does not look professional. I apologize. I spent three weeks of my life (unpaid) reading a Dreamweaver book and did the best I could. (Jim, you'll be happy to know that this action has significantly reduced organizational costs.) I've put hundreds of hours into the site, and it educates people 24 hrs/day. I get a multitude of compliments on my site. Do you have constructive criticisms? Perhaps you have a website that you built that I can look at to get ideas? Are you willing to volunteer for me as a website designer, as others have done? 

FrogFarm, The fact that you keep stating there isn't enough money to employ herpetologists is the precise reason SAVE THE FROGS! exists. One day, I would like to be able to give intelligent motivated individuals scholarships, fund their PhD or Masters research, and then hire them when they're done with their degree. If SAVE THE FROGS! can employ 100 researchers, 100 educators, 100 lawyers, great...because there are6,000,000,000 environmentally-unaware and environmentally-destructive humans to contend with. FrogFarm, as for any of my personal views regarding necessary conservation actions, I side with the frogs, always, in whatever that entails.

Until my aforementioned paper becomes available (at which point I will post a link to it here) this will be my last message here. Aside from the Spock guy and the Texan, who have generously offered their volunteer services, and a couple positive posts speaking on my behalf, I have received no support from this group.

Anyone who wants to effect real action knows where to find me.

Anyone who wants a real Visa card knows where to find it.


----------



## Marty71

jehitch said:


> The failure in your logic is that this group of people has shown a strong propensity to donate both money and time to other conservation organizations. Yet you have been unable to convince them to donate to YOUR conservation organization despite numerous pleas over several days. It's quite a stretch to argue that the fault lies with your audience rather than yourself.
> 
> Jim


This may be an unpopular question, but has this group really shown a propensity to generate both time and money? I haven't. I kicked in a few bucks for a couple IAD's but that's about it. I haven't volunteered any time. I doubt I am alone. If you are going to question this savethefrogs (and I personally appreciate the efforts to determine the worthiness/effectiveness of savethefrogs) it would only seem fair to back your claim. 

If you look back at the IAD donations, the resistance to charity classifieds etc. I have never gotten the feeling that Dendroboard members have been a force in conservation efforts. Hell take out one individual and the IAD donations over two years probably equal out to under $5 an active member. 

I have gone down the road of questioning donations, people's commitments etc. and I am not interested in doing that again. And I have no desire to throw stones from a glass house. The one habitat I am trying to save right now is the one I live in. But if we are going to run this organization through the ringer because they didn't properly introduce themselves and their web site isn't professional enough (why devote money to frogs when you can run flash garaphics on your site), we should all take a look at what each of us are doing and compare it to what Dr. Kriger and this organization are trying to do.


----------



## Scott

I've donated some money over the years - more importantly I've donated my time.

I helped to organize and run IAD for years - many times to the exclusion of things that were much more important (for me, personally). 

I'm currently the Membership Director for TWI - but I am resigning that post as well. I honestly should be spending all available time on obtaining certification for the programming that I do. I'm at the point where I'm paying for not having done that in the past (because I spent too much time on my frogs - and other endeavors related to frogs).

It's nice to see someone stepping up to try and help - but I still think all of the questions that have been asked are completely legitimate. It's a thankless job to ask the questions that need to be asked. 

I also run the local mailing list for New England Frog Group. No real overhead on that one. That is more of a hobby endeavor rather than a national/conservation effort.

And for the record - I agree unequivocally with Marty. Most (certainly not all, but most) frog hobbyists are very nice people. But... they save their money for frogs. And if they have any money left over they spend it on plants. While spending money at a frog show auction is "donating" - the actual donation comes from the person providing the goods, not the hobbyists. I _have_ seen good natured bidding (over the value of the goods) with the bidders knowing the $ would go to charity - a good thing.

s

[... and somehow I'm sure this little note will give me a few more slams in the reputation area - I'll live.]


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## MonarchzMan

kmk5g said:


> MonarchMan,
> You say the site does not look professional. I apologize. I spent three weeks of my life (unpaid) reading a Dreamweaver book and did the best I could. (Jim, you'll be happy to know that this action has significantly reduced organizational costs.) I've put hundreds of hours into the site, and it educates people 24 hrs/day. I get a multitude of compliments on my site. Do you have constructive criticisms? Perhaps you have a website that you built that I can look at to get ideas? Are you willing to volunteer for me as a website designer, as others have done?


Hey,

I'm sorry, perhaps I did not say it as I meant. I totally understand that you put a lot of time into the site, and again I commend you for it. And in looking through it, it has a great deal of information, there is no doubt about that. I simply would like to see it organized a bit better. For example, the "who we are" page is excellent (and I'm pleased to see a few people I know personally!). As an upcoming amphibian researcher myself, seeing something like that is great. I would love to be able to contact people if necessary for various things (I am happy to see Cori Richards there; I worked with her in Panama in 2007, but didn't get contact info, especially after she completed her PhD at U of M). I think simple contact info on them would be awesome.

I hope you did not take my comment meaning that I thought that the site was bad, or anything like that. I don't think it is. On the contrary, I think that it's a good site, and with a few changes, could be something that could be incredibly useful, educational, and beneficial for the frogs. The big thing that attracts me to sites and impresses me about them is organization. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that my knowledge of web building is incredibly limited. If I knew how to do the changes, I would help out without hesitation.

So, for example, on the contacts page, for all of the associate persons, perhaps making a new page for them and have them further organized by research interests (or something like that): so if someone wanted to see who was or has worked on chytrid, they can see a list of experts. Or if peoples' interest is in dart frog evolution, they could look for people who are interested in frog evolution. So on and so forth. Something like that. I can go over other things, if you'd like, in private I think could improve the site. I don't feel like such comments are best over an internet forum. 

Like I said, it's a good site, but can be a little difficult to navigate through. I hope you didn't misunderstand what I mean. I would be more than willing to help out where I could. Best of luck.

-JP


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## kmk5g

Hi,
Me again, Last post this time, seriously. 

MonarchMan
(1) Looks like you're on deviantArt. Find us there with username savethefrogs and help us spread word of the 1st Annual Frog Art Contest:
Frog Art Contest | Cash Prizes

(2) I didn't expect you had web design knowledge. Building sites, and learning web design is endlessly complex and a site can always be better. I have a list 5 pages long of site improvements I'd like to make. I even have 10 volunteers willing to translate the site to different languages so that people from all over the world can see the site. But I wouldn't have time to add the pages to the site because i'm also the fundraiser, publicist, customer service agent, warehouse shipping boy, ecologist, educator, the guy who responds to crazy board posts, etc. The problem is that websites takes time, and nobody's donating money so that we can pay a webmaster. Further, i've learned that you can double the quality of your website, but that won't double the quantity of your donations.

However, I take pride in SAVE THE FROGS!, so I'll make you a deal, you donate $30 and I'll spend an hour tomorrow installing a Google search bar to every page of the site. I'll even send you a 100% organic cotton SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirt and bumper sticker.
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts

And if I finish in under an hour, I'll upload the Spanish translations that one of my volunteers made for me. If I finish that I'll add the French, the Mandarin and the Portuguese that other volunteers made me.

If someone wants me to spend two hours calling newspapers tomorrow, I'll offer you the same deal, but still for only a $30 donation.

Have a more useful job for me? Hire me for an hour.

OK, until that paper is published, I'll let you all take charge.
Kerry


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## Roadrunner

Man, you just don`t want to answer some of my questions. Again, your statement on quarentine and testing amphibs to be disease free and the statement we can never know if an animal has what we can`t test for sounds like subversive PETA tactics to get rid of the pet trade. You side w/ the frogs in any case isn`t an answer. Does your org see the benefit of people breeding frogs for the pet trade to help save them. Would you consider that best for the frogs? Would your org and it`s goals see that as best for the frogs?




kmk5g said:


> Jim
> You say "It's quite a stretch to argue that the fault lies with your audience rather than yourself." It's not a stretch at all. I clearly demonstrated that there are no amphibian conservation organizations who have been even remotely successful at raising funds. Ponder my twice-stated fact that the group that the worldwide herpetological community charged with raising $400 million dollars, a group with the backing of major international decades-old infrastructure, they had raised only 0.1% of the money when last we spoke. Not one of your group members can even spare $10 to help an organization run by someone who is dedicated enough to work without pay for 5 months, and pony up all startup costs from their own bank. I worked 70hrs a week for 4 yrs during my PhD for about $4/hr, and I published 12 highly-cited papers in the same amount of time that most PhD students publish 2 papers. And you still don't trust my credentials or dedication enough to spare $10.
> 
> MonarchMan,
> You say the site does not look professional. I apologize. I spent three weeks of my life (unpaid) reading a Dreamweaver book and did the best I could. (Jim, you'll be happy to know that this action has significantly reduced organizational costs.) I've put hundreds of hours into the site, and it educates people 24 hrs/day. I get a multitude of compliments on my site. Do you have constructive criticisms? Perhaps you have a website that you built that I can look at to get ideas? Are you willing to volunteer for me as a website designer, as others have done?
> 
> FrogFarm, The fact that you keep stating there isn't enough money to employ herpetologists is the precise reason SAVE THE FROGS! exists. One day, I would like to be able to give intelligent motivated individuals scholarships, fund their PhD or Masters research, and then hire them when they're done with their degree. If SAVE THE FROGS! can employ 100 researchers, 100 educators, 100 lawyers, great...because there are6,000,000,000 environmentally-unaware and environmentally-destructive humans to contend with. FrogFarm, as for any of my personal views regarding necessary conservation actions, I side with the frogs, always, in whatever that entails.
> 
> Until my aforementioned paper becomes available (at which point I will post a link to it here) this will be my last message here. Aside from the Spock guy and the Texan, who have generously offered their volunteer services, and a couple positive posts speaking on my behalf, I have received no support from this group.
> 
> Anyone who wants to effect real action knows where to find me.
> 
> Anyone who wants a real Visa card knows where to find it.


----------



## kmk5g

FrogFarm,
My organization has never met to discuss this topic. We are a long way off from being able to devote time to the issue of non-essential captive breeding (years). 

I understand there are positive aspects (better husbandry knowledge for critically endangered amphibians) and I understand there are negative aspects (several papers have been published regarding infectious disease being transported on captive animals). I assume you understand that too. I could tell you my personal thoughts here now, but I have devoted many hours to writing a well-crafted, logical, thorough peer-reviewed article on the topic, so I'll let that be my permanent statement.

As for PETA, I know very little about them or their stance on amphibian breeding, but I assume they deal with ethical issues, something outside the domain of SAVE THE FROGS!. I personally have no association with or interest in PETA, and I find the thought of spaying or neutering a non-human animal (something which they support) as unethical as spaying or neutering a human child.

I deal with scientific issues dealing with how to best conserve amphibian populations.
Kerry
(that is indeed my last post for a while)


----------



## MonarchzMan

kmk5g said:


> (2) I didn't expect you had web design knowledge. Building sites, and learning web design is endlessly complex and a site can always be better. I have a list 5 pages long of site improvements I'd like to make. I even have 10 volunteers willing to translate the site to different languages so that people from all over the world can see the site. But I wouldn't have time to add the pages to the site because i'm also the fundraiser, publicist, customer service agent, warehouse shipping boy, ecologist, educator, the guy who responds to crazy board posts, etc. The problem is that websites takes time, and nobody's donating money so that we can pay a webmaster. Further, i've learned that you can double the quality of your website, but that won't double the quantity of your donations.
> 
> However, I take pride in SAVE THE FROGS!, so I'll make you a deal, you donate $30 and I'll spend an hour tomorrow installing a Google search bar to every page of the site. I'll even send you a 100% organic cotton SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirt and bumper sticker.
> Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts
> 
> And if I finish in under an hour, I'll upload the Spanish translations that one of my volunteers made for me. If I finish that I'll add the French, the Mandarin and the Portuguese that other volunteers made me.
> 
> If someone wants me to spend two hours calling newspapers tomorrow, I'll offer you the same deal, but still for only a $30 donation.
> 
> Have a more useful job for me? Hire me for an hour.
> 
> OK, until that paper is published, I'll let you all take charge.
> Kerry


Hey,

One thing that you have to realize with this group is that there is TWI (while it's for all amphibians, it has a strong dart frog bias, which is a pull for people here), Amphibian Ark, Dendrobates.org, CRARC, etc. all pulling for money. All pulling for money in a rough economy. I've tried raising money from hobbyists to help support my research (selling photos and auctions), but I haven't made the thousands that I need to do the research. And that's okay, I appreciate whatever donation I can get. Same with Evan and Jason's work through Dendrobates.org. They get donations and people buy merchandise, but, although I don't know for certain, I'm guessing those things don't pay their way down to Peru. There are a lot of groups wanting to get money, and unless there's a tangible benefit people can see, they're unlikely to donate.

These organizations, as it seems yours is as well, are volunteer based. What makes these organizations successful or not is the drive of the people behind it. That's one of the reasons I'm involved with TWI. It is a group of people who are very passionate about conservation of amphibians in the hobby. Right now, I'm working on the Oophaga pumilio Taxon Management Plan because it's a group of animals I want to work to protect. I didn't say "Donate $30 and I will do this" but just volunteered and went on to do it. I've donated hours of my time to writing out the TMP, and I am completely okay with that because it will benefit the frogs in the end.

I think that you ought to do the same. If you've got a free hour here or there, if you know updates to your site are needed, why not do them? It's a cause you believe in. Donation run sites generally are very difficult to keep afloat, to begin with. If you put the time into making the site better, I can guarantee that would ease your ability to get donations. Or go to newspapers and talk about your site. Increasing the visibility of it will increase the donations you get. It seems a little backwards to me to ask for donations first, then say you'll go to newspapers. I would also consider possibly applying for education grants out there. Like I said, donation run sites are difficult to keep afloat. Even a small grant like $500 would likely help you immensely in updating and promoting your site.

Those would be my suggestions. You apparently have the drive and want your site to be a success, and I think that in order for that to happen, you need to, rather than solicit donations in exchange for services, is provide those services and show that they are worth the donations. Best of luck.

-JP


----------



## jehitch

Marty71 said:


> This may be an unpopular question, but has this group really shown a propensity to generate both time and money? I haven't. I kicked in a few bucks for a couple IAD's but that's about it. I haven't volunteered any time. I doubt I am alone. If you are going to question this savethefrogs (and I personally appreciate the efforts to determine the worthiness/effectiveness of savethefrogs) it would only seem fair to back your claim.
> 
> If you look back at the IAD donations, the resistance to charity classifieds etc. I have never gotten the feeling that Dendroboard members have been a force in conservation efforts. Hell take out one individual and the IAD donations over two years probably equal out to under $5 an active member.
> 
> I have gone down the road of questioning donations, people's commitments etc. and I am not interested in doing that again. And I have no desire to throw stones from a glass house. The one habitat I am trying to save right now is the one I live in. But if we are going to run this organization through the ringer because they didn't properly introduce themselves and their web site isn't professional enough (why devote money to frogs when you can run flash garaphics on your site), we should all take a look at what each of us are doing and compare it to what Dr. Kriger and this organization are trying to do.


Marty,
I made my observation based on looking over the member list at TWI, which features a large number of recognizable dedroboarders, and the number of posts I've seen during my time here featuring members who were organizing or volunteering at events to promote frogs. Perhaps it is a vocal minority, but I'm sure it's quite a number of people who are predisposed to donate to the cause.

I wasn't running this organization "through the ringer" because of his failure to introduce himself. I was asking the same questions I ask every organization that solicits my donations. He asked for my donation publicly, so I felt it was fair to ask my questions publicly.

What kept bringing me back was how different his answers were from other organizations: where other groups welcomed my questions, Dr. Kriger seemed to me to be evasive, defensive, and antagonistic. For example, after I was unable to locate the organization in either the IRS or Commonwealth of Virginia nonprofit databases, I asked for the exact legal name of his group. 

His response was:


> My previous posts in this thread provide links to many webpages and documents that prove the integrity of SAVE THE FROGS! Did you read the Articles of Incorporation that is easily downloadable at the top of the SAVE THE FROGS! Who We Are page? Do you think I would post a faked version of a legally binding document in a visible online location? The VA State Corporation Commission is the correct department for you to call, should you have questions. Have you looked through our Who We Are page yet? And do you think AmphibiaWeb/UCBerkeley would put us on their homepage if we were fake?


Not exactly a forthcoming answer to my simple question.

I applaud him working toward his goals, but I think when it comes to nonprofit administration, he is working well outside his area of expertise. As I told him several times, I think he would benefit greatly from associating with those who have already worked out all of the logistical hurdles involved in nonprofit administration, rather than spending what he describes as hundreds of hours of his own time and thousands of dollars of his own money to do what has already been done.

I like seeing people with such energy to devote to a goal; I dislike seeing people spinning their wheels instead of achieving those goals, simply because of a desire to be "in charge"; I dislike even more when those people take away the limited funds available from effective organizations.

Jim


----------



## Philsuma

+1000, Jim


It is always the hard road, when asking the difficult questions.....

Your questions absolutely needed to be asked.....


----------



## Roadrunner

Thank you for your answer. Yes, I`m aware they spread disease. I`m also aware that the bait industry and a # of other vectors spread disease and that disease doesn`t matter if habitat is lost. You missed a couple plus` of the pet trade. The inspiration people get when they see dart frogs in person and hear about their plight at trade shows. The inspiration and awareness they spread as friends get to see these kids habitat that they set up for them and hear about their plight from their new caretaker. When you publish your paper, remember these, non-scientific aspects and try to weigh them. It`s not all about the science. Realize too, that they may be dissappearing too quick from the wild for anything other than captive breeding to work till things are "sorted out" to make sure their habitat is intact. This would require the skills we`re gaining in what commonly unites us here.

Thanks again for the conversation and I still offer my help, you seemed to miss it in the last 2 posts. I wish you the best.



kmk5g said:


> FrogFarm,
> My organization has never met to discuss this topic. We are a long way off from being able to devote time to the issue of non-essential captive breeding (years).
> 
> I understand there are positive aspects (better husbandry knowledge for critically endangered amphibians) and I understand there are negative aspects (several papers have been published regarding infectious disease being transported on captive animals). I assume you understand that too. I could tell you my personal thoughts here now, but I have devoted many hours to writing a well-crafted, logical, thorough peer-reviewed article on the topic, so I'll let that be my permanent statement.
> 
> As for PETA, I know very little about them or their stance on amphibian breeding, but I assume they deal with ethical issues, something outside the domain of SAVE THE FROGS!. I personally have no association with or interest in PETA, and I find the thought of spaying or neutering a non-human animal (something which they support) as unethical as spaying or neutering a human child.
> 
> I deal with scientific issues dealing with how to best conserve amphibian populations.
> Kerry
> (that is indeed my last post for a while)


----------



## Marty71

jehitch said:


> Marty,
> I made my observation based on looking over the member list at TWI, which features a large number of recognizable dedroboarders, and the number of posts I've seen during my time here featuring members who were organizing or volunteering at events to promote frogs. Perhaps it is a vocal minority, but I'm sure it's quite a number of people who are predisposed to donate to the cause.
> 
> I wasn't running this organization "through the ringer" because of his failure to introduce himself. I was asking the same questions I ask every organization that solicits my donations. He asked for my donation publicly, so I felt it was fair to ask my questions publicly.
> 
> What kept bringing me back was how different his answers were from other organizations: where other groups welcomed my questions, Dr. Kriger seemed to me to be evasive, defensive, and antagonistic. For example, after I was unable to locate the organization in either the IRS or Commonwealth of Virginia nonprofit databases, I asked for the exact legal name of his group.
> 
> His response was:
> 
> 
> Not exactly a forthcoming answer to my simple question.
> 
> I applaud him working toward his goals, but I think when it comes to nonprofit administration, he is working well outside his area of expertise. As I told him several times, I think he would benefit greatly from associating with those who have already worked out all of the logistical hurdles involved in nonprofit administration, rather than spending what he describes as hundreds of hours of his own time and thousands of dollars of his own money to do what has already been done.
> 
> I like seeing people with such energy to devote to a goal; I dislike seeing people spinning their wheels instead of achieving those goals, simply because of a desire to be "in charge"; I dislike even more when those people take away the limited funds available from effective organizations.
> 
> Jim


Hi Jim,

I should clarify my post. I have no doubt that there are committed determined Dendroboard memebers that play a vital role in conservation efforts, but I can't help but find it incredibly disheartening how some conservation efforts have been received. IAD donations. Multiple proposals to link classifieds to a nominal fee directed towards conservation. Now this group and this thread. These things get talked into the ground and nothing ends up happening. While I think there is great value in the questions you've raised I don't fully understand what you're ultimate goal is. Do you want the organization to shut down because you have deemed them to be ineffective or because Dr. Kriger has not answered every question to your satisfaction? Do you feel the organization is illegitimate or ineffective, both, or neither?Does every organization on day 1 have to meet your requirements? Is there any allowance given to the idea that you have to start somewhere? Why is it a given that every dollar that goes to this organization is a dollar taken away from a different organization? People don't necessarily decide to devote money to a cause and then seek out the best organization supporting that cause. If I buy my son a Savethefrogs tshirt for $25 that would have otherwise stayed in my pocket is that a bad thing? I fail to see how having another committed group trying to raise awareness can be viewed negatively? 

I know that some of these questions are naive, and I for the most part understand what you are trying to do. But I have also been reminded many times that this is a site dedicated to dart frog enthusiast. It is not a conservation site. I can't help but think that the tone and tack of your questioning has potentially diverted money from this organization. Money that may not make it's way to TWI or any other conservation effort, and I am having a hard time seeing how that benefits anyone.


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## frogparty

I always donate to conservation northwest ,world wildlife fund and the natural resources defense counsil along with working for nooksack salmon enhancement agency here in bellingham as a volunteer along with the paid work I have done for wdfw. Because I can't donate to specific amphibian groups like twi or asn now even though I plan to in the future with more money, doesn't mean I don't care or contribute. wwf, conservation northwest and nrdc are large organizations that enact real change with a firmly established groundwork to get shit done. And my volunteer work with nooksack salmon enhancement is primarily a habitat issue where they focus on restoring streamside habitat and the reduction of invasive species which directly affects amphibians not to mention the salmon. Lots of people help in their own way. I think just by preserving frog genetics we are doing a good thing witht this hobby. There are some seriously smart and commited people on this board who are more educated about what is passionate to them than many professionals I have met. The fact that we promote captive breeding over constant importation is fantastic, but limited importing by people who can do the most with those limited number of animals like UE is awesome. A few pairs of imports can generate hunderds of F1'S for the hobby and that is super.


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## elmoisfive

You know I've watched this thread develop and quite honestly I'm very disappointed. We start out with the OP being labeled a scam artist and when that charge didn't stick it devolved into a who are you, why are you, how dare you set of challenges. Complete with complaints when each and every question wasn't answered to the poster's satisfaction.

Now Dr. Kriger may be young (probably), idealistic (clearly) and naive (perhaps) but he appears to be putting real skin in the game. If you believe in him support him, if you don't then don't. It's not your call as to what he does or does not do...

As for demanding answers, let's be clear...HE OWES YOU NOTHING. You have no contract with him and the last time I looked it's a free country. This mealy mouthed nonsense about "well if he asks for money he should submit to endless questioning of motives" is ridiculous. Perhaps we should turn the microscope around and ask those posters for a full accounting of their activities 

Dr. Kriger has given back some challenges to be fair and I don't agree with all of them nor should my comments be seen as an endorsement of his actions but the central element of his argument rings true...habitat continues to be lost, frogs continue to disappear. Despite the hard work of some very dedicated organizations and their supporters.

People have the right to ask questions and have their own opinions. But harassment because you didn't get the answer you wanted...sorry but not acceptable. No one has the right to be a bully regardless of what stories you tell yourself about your intentions. You know, once someone steps over that particular line they no longer see the line.

Bill

P.S. There are these things called private messages and email. If you are truly interested in helping Dr. Kriger refine/better his approach as opposed to just scoring points off him in public you might just consider using them


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## Philsuma

Bill,

What gives a forum such as this, usefullness and relevance, is the constant flow of information. That flow requires questions and sometimes argument.

It's exactly this type of discourse that provides for learning and the furtherance of thought and implimentation for everyone.

If no questioning, discussions and on occasion, arguments occur, then we have a very one sided and hamstrung forum and not a varied body of information and experiences.

Sometimes things do get a little heated but I thought this thread held up rather well despite the fact that this was a newcomer with an agenda.

I for one, am glad hard questions were asked. I am quite sure "save the frogs" would have gone on to ask for donations with a short three sentence posting like the one that started this thread and nothing more had not others continued to post to the thread.

I have a limited amount of funds available for conservation and while some of the back and forth postings weren't the most steller....I gleaned valuable information from them and I am better informed for reading them all.

Phil


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## kyle1745

Lets not over simplify Bills statements. Questions are fine, but not in the accusing manner that was shown here. Many of which elude to what is no more than grossly exaggerated speculation.


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## jausi

I've been reading this whole threat and it's not fear for Dr. Kerry to be under atack, just for trying to promote his organization, I guess people have to be allways on the look out for scams, but just reading the first page everybody can see that Dr kerry explain himself (wich was not necessary for him to do), but he kept getting harass in a really disrespectful way. 

I hope everything can be solve in a paceful way, ofcorse there things that I don't agree with dr kerry too, but I do respect everybody opinons and ideals.

Just my two cents

Felipe(aka Jausi)


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## jehitch

Marty71 said:


> Hi Jim,
> While I think there is great value in the questions you've raised I don't fully understand what you're ultimate goal is. Do you want the organization to shut down because you have deemed them to be ineffective or because Dr. Kriger has not answered every question to your satisfaction? Do you feel the organization is illegitimate or ineffective, both, or neither?Does every organization on day 1 have to meet your requirements? Is there any allowance given to the idea that you have to start somewhere?


Marty,
My ultimate goal here was to give all readers of the thread the opportunity to decide whether this organization is worthy of their donations, based on the poster's answers to some tough questions and my observations based on years of asking these questions professionally.

In traditional media, this exchange would have occurred in private, between an editor and the organization, before the organization had the opportunity to make its pitch for donations. There are no editors on the internet so it's up to us, as consumers, to closely examine groups soliciting donations.

As to whether the organization is illegitimate or ineffective, I haven't been supplied with enough facts to decide the former, but my gut-level reaction (based, as I said, on years of asking these questions in the method described in the previous paragraph) is that it is merely the latter.

There is an allowance given to the idea that you have to start somewhere. That is why I asked questions about whether he had discussed his ideas with existing organizations before starting his own, because determining what resources are already available is the sort of basic research that is the "somewhere" one should start.



Marty71 said:


> Why is it a given that every dollar that goes to this organization is a dollar taken away from a different organization? People don't necessarily decide to devote money to a cause and then seek out the best organization supporting that cause. If I buy my son a Savethefrogs tshirt for $25 that would have otherwise stayed in my pocket is that a bad thing? I fail to see how having another committed group trying to raise awareness can be viewed negatively?


As long as you don't think you've done anything more than buy an overpriced shirt, then it's not a bad thing. When it becomes a bad thing is when someone buys a t-shirt not as a call to action, but as action itself, and then continues a lifestyle that is causing the very destruction they think they are combating by buying a shirt.

Not to mention that the number of shirts a group would have to sell through Cafe Press to actually raise the kind of money this group needs to meet its goals is astronomical. 



Marty71 said:


> I know that some of these questions are naive, and I for the most part understand what you are trying to do. But I have also been reminded many times that this is a site dedicated to dart frog enthusiast. It is not a conservation site. I can't help but think that the tone and tack of your questioning has potentially diverted money from this organization. Money that may not make it's way to TWI or any other conservation effort, and I am having a hard time seeing how that benefits anyone.


I'm not sure I see how the tone or tack of questions can affect donations, as long as the answers are straightforward and compelling.

Jim


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## AzureFrog

I am new here, so jump on me if you will, but did any of you naysayers actually visit the website. There is a list of 40+ names under "who are we" many of whom are well respected Ph.Ds

There is no need to get hostile!

PEACE
Shawn


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## kmk5g

Jim,
Four times I have referred you to our Articles of Incorporation and the thorough list of Board of Directors and Advisory Committee members listed on our Who We Are page Who We Are. Did you download and read the legally binding Articles yet? Did you read the first Article? It clearly states our official name, which you seem to doubt is a legally-recognized name. Have you read our 21 page Corporate Bylaws that are publicly available (as I have previously stated) on our Who We Are page? Did you call the VA State Corporation Commision yet, as I previously suggested, or will you just continue make posts implying SAVE THE FROGS! is illegitimate, which does nothing to benefit SAVE THE FROGS! or amphibian conservation? 

As for effectiveness, SAVE THE FROGS! has been incredibly effective based on the limited resources with which we began, and the fact we have existed for only 10 months. Have a look around the website when you get a chance. I'm sure you'll find something educational. Have you had a look at our page on the chytrid fungus: Chytrid Fungus
I wrote it in my free time, as a public service, just like the other 50 or so pages on SAVE THE FROGS!

I'm sure your kids will find plenty of SAVE THE FROGS! educational events of interest to them: Students Help Save Frogs

Jim, you could even apply for our $500 conference travel grant to attend the Joint Meeting of Herpetologists and Ichthyologists in Portland this summer, assuming you are currently enrolled as a student. Amphibian Conservation Awards | Grants | Scholarships
There are no other groups (even the sponsoring herpetological societies) offering such a grant.

As for shirts, I've stated before that Cafepress SAVE THE FROGS! - Gifts for Frog Lovers is not our only venue for distribution. We distribute directly as well. These are 100% organic cotton t-shirts, and they are not as cheap as WalMart style t-shirts. $25 is a good deal. That includes shipping, a free bumper sticker, an organic cotton shirt, and some money leftover as a donation to support valuable amphibian conservation work. You're welcome to order yourself one. When you wear it you'd be spreading the word about the amphibian extinction crisis, and you'd feel good and look good too. I personally photographed the Southern Orange-eyed treefrog that graces the shirt, and have to say it's a pretty damn cool frog and a cool shirt.
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts

Thanks for your support. Together we can SAVE THE FROGS!
Kerry


----------



## jubjub47

I try not to stir up trouble and hopefully won't with this post. I've followed this thread for the past few days and have been more disappointed each time I read the new posts. It's almost like the Dr. Is on trial because he's posted a link in a community that more then any I know donates money left and right to conservation. While I respect the opinions of everyone who has posted, I am an adult that can research the charities that I donate to and don't need the peanut gallery throwing possible incorrect info out that may sway my decision to donate to what may be a worthwhile organization. I understand there are other organizations out there, but why should this effort be lumped in with anothers effort? In my experiences in life I've found that any business or organizationa that focuses on a specialty is far more productive than an organization that spreads itself to cover a multiple fields. Ex. If I have dart frog questions I'm going to log onto DB. When I have a gecko question, while someone here may be able to help...I'm going to a gecko community. This is no different. I for one will contribute in the near future to a few conservation organizations and will look at this one when the time comes. If you still want to keep the Dr. On the stand then please do it in private so your public argument over the efforts of this group isn't tainted by your suspicions and scaring of possible supporters and if/or when you find legitimate problems post your findings.


----------



## jubjub47

> If you still want to keep the Dr. On the stand then please do it in private so your public argument over the efforts of this group isn't tainted by your suspicions and scaring of possible supporters and if/or when you find legitimate problems post your findings.


To whoever decided to give me negative rep for "speaking for others" for this comment, I would just like to say that is very off base. All of my comments are meant by me and for me and were referring to the negative endorsement that this organization is receiving for the way that Dr. Kriger is being interrogated. 

I also believe I was claimed to be 


> Horribly ignorant of the Issues at hand


I guess feeling that treating somebody with respect is now considered ignorant? The attacks on this mans organization that he clearly has put much time and effort in and believes whole heartedly in has been attacked from the get go. I understand being skeptical, but this treatment has gone way overboard. Sure you may not believe in his cause or his beliefs towards conservation....easy solution....don't donate! Lets face it, his approach may have flaws or could be streamlined, but this is a young group and things will get tweaked and straightened as they go. Before publicly slandering the organization like has been done from the start, contact them via email and try and get some of the answers that your looking for. If you still feel that there are issues then bring them out for a public discussion.


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## elmoisfive

Dr. Kriger,

You are probably wasting your time on certain individuals here...

It may be interesting to ask instead to those who challenge your effectiveness in raising funds for amphibian conservation to give an account of their own activities in this regard...I'm sure we'll all be highly enlightened by the responses 

Heck I might even be interested in joining the fun 

Bill


----------



## Otis

elmoisfive said:


> Dr. Kriger,
> 
> You are probably wasting your time on certain individuals here...
> 
> It may be interesting to ask instead to those who challenge your effectiveness in raising funds for amphibian conservation to give an account of their own activities in this regard...I'm sure we'll all be highly enlightened by the responses
> 
> Heck I might even be interested in joining the fun
> 
> Bill


Hmmm...I wonder why...13,000 is it now


----------



## elmoisfive

Lol no...I meant serve as referee for the free for all 

Bill


----------



## Roadrunner

Dr Kriger,
Thank you for reposting those links on the pet trade and chytrid. That`s answered my questions.
Aaron Handzlik


----------



## dneafse

Sheesh. What an unpleasant community this forum is developing into.

I've kept various reptiles and amphibians as pets for 15 years, but I personally feel that herpetoculture at best has a neutral impact on conservation. It's great to think that keeping pokemon-type collections of inbred frogs in tiny glass boxes with lights that consume lots of electricity could somehow be 'green', but my conscience and common sense tell me otherwise. 

As someone who keeps frogs as a guilty indulgence rather than a noble conservation gesture, I'm personally glad that an amphibian conservation organization exists that does not rely heavily on herpetoculture as a 'solution' to the amphibian crisis.


----------



## elmoisfive

dneafse said:


> Sheesh. What an unpleasant community this forum is developing into.
> 
> I've kept various reptiles and amphibians as pets for 15 years, but I personally feel that herpetoculture at best has a neutral impact on conservation. It's great to think that keeping pokemon-type collections of inbred frogs in tiny glass boxes with lights that consume lots of electricity could somehow be 'green', but my conscience and common sense tell me otherwise.
> 
> As someone who keeps frogs as a guilty indulgence rather than a noble conservation gesture, I'm personally glad that an amphibian conservation organization exists that does not rely heavily on herpetoculture as a 'solution' to the amphibian crisis.


Like any family we have our little falling outs from time to time. One problem is that people at times can't simply state their opinion and move on...it becomes a zero sum game where the need 'to 'prove the other person wrong' leads to harsh tactics and commentary. We had a bit of that here but it would appear that everyone has decided to calm down.

You are correct that no one method will likely cover all needs in terms of conservation or otherwise but as an integrated whole it is hard to see how any individual element can't help but contribute to the end result. This assumes of course that people are willing to take the big picture perspective as opposed to hammering on the gaps in any one aspect.

Bill


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## Philsuma

dneafse said:


> Sheesh. What an unpleasant community this forum is developing into.
> 
> I've kept various reptiles and amphibians as pets for 15 years, but I personally feel that herpetoculture at best has a neutral impact on conservation. It's great to think that keeping pokemon-type collections of inbred frogs in tiny glass boxes with lights that consume lots of electricity could somehow be 'green', but my conscience and common sense tell me otherwise.
> 
> As someone who keeps frogs as a guilty indulgence rather than a noble conservation gesture, I'm personally glad that an amphibian conservation organization exists that does not rely heavily on herpetoculture as a 'solution' to the amphibian crisis.


You should look at a few other threads if you really think this one got "out of hand". This one was rather tame by most argument standards.

It's hard to say what impact the Herpetoculture Industry has on global conservation. We all agree that habitat destruction is number 1,2 and 3 in terms of conservation importance. One could say, that CB animals lessens the strain on native populations and collecting due to the ever increasing amount of captive produced animals making importation too cost prohibitive.

Don't think of keeping animals as an indulgence. Let me ask you this....How many people, family and strangers alike, come into your residence and view your animals /frogs? The number of people that see and ask about my animals is substantial. They ALL leave with a greater understanding of not only the animal itself, but of it's environment and origin. They may even ask about and remember it's diet and other personal needs.....kind of like what a zoo or institution does but on a smaller scale, obviously.

Like the late S. Irwin said " We are a visual species and need to see the animals first hand in order to fall in love with them and ultimately save them".

And like Bill said, we all squabble a bit and argue from time to time but in the end, I'm willing to bet we *all* "have each other's back" and are willing to do whatever we can to help the animals. So I think this forum is anything but unpleasant. I see you've been a member since 2006 and only have 39 posts. Like I tell almost ALL other members from time to time....please post more. Its truly a group effort.

Phil


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## Geckoguy

I would just like to say that I think the SAVE THE FROGS! site is a nice site to get people involved in the conservation of amphibian species. I think that if anyone is willing to take time out of thier life to benifit a good cause they should be given respect and not criticism. Id like to say thanks to the SAVE THE FROGS! organization for making an attempt to solve a very serious environmental issue. And the bumper sticker will look sweet on my yellow Cobalt; not to mention some money will be going to a good cause.


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## Philsuma

Geckoguy said:


> the bumper sticker will look sweet on my yellow Cobalt.


Your'e going to put a bumber sticker on your frog


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## Geckoguy

LOL I was hoping someone would say that!!!


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## Ontariofrogger1973

Philsuma said:


> You should look at a few other threads if you really think this one got "out of hand". This one was rather tame by most argument standards.
> 
> It's hard to say what impact the Herpetoculture Industry has on global conservation. We all agree that habitat destruction is number 1,2 and 3 in terms of conservation importance. One could say, that CB animals lessens the strain on native populations and collecting due to the ever increasing amount of captive produced animals making importation too cost prohibitive.
> 
> Don't think of keeping animals as an indulgence. Let me ask you this....How many people, family and strangers alike, come into your residence and view your animals /frogs? The number of people that see and ask about my animals is substantial. They ALL leave with a greater understanding of not only the animal itself, but of it's environment and origin. They may even ask about and remember it's diet and other personal needs.....kind of like what a zoo or institution does but on a smaller scale, obviously.
> 
> Like the late S. Irwin said " We are a visual species and need to see the animals first hand in order to fall in love with them and ultimately save them".
> 
> And like Bill said, we all squabble a bit and argue from time to time but in the end, I'm willing to bet we *all* "have each other's back" and are willing to do whatever we can to help the animals. So I think this forum is anything but unpleasant. I see you've been a member since 2006 and only have 39 posts. Like I tell almost ALL other members from time to time....please post more. Its truly a group effort.
> 
> Phil




thats so true. everytime someone sees my animals i make sure they walk away educated.


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## kmk5g

Hi,
As FrogFarm had expressed considerable interest in my views and the views of SAVE THE FROGS! towards the amphibian trade, and I'm sure there are other interested parties, I would like to invite all of you to comment on our new semi-official statement on the subject. It is the announcement message at the top of the Breeders and Hobbyists section of the new SAVE THE FROGS! FrogForum: 

The FrogForum

My intent is not to take people from this forum to another. However, the logical place for a meaningful discussion on the phrasing of that statement (which is potentially alterable if soemeone posts a persuasive argument) would be in that thread.

Kerry
SAVE THE FROGS! Founder and Executive Director
Kerry Kriger


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## Roadrunner

I`m sure the people here could look at their frog care methods and add even more suggestions on how not to transport and let loose new or old diseases. That is a great statement though. 2 things that come to mind is disposal of viv water and cage decor. Would it be best to throw it in the garbage or sterilize or leave it in a bucket to evaporate? The other is, as most of us probably did as kids, don`t bury a dead pet in the backyard!!
The policy part worries me more than anything. AS we`ve seen w/ everything else, make restrictions on movement too hi and you`ll get more people going around the laws. Increased price on amphibs means increased smuggling and no testing. I know I should want more bans as it would increase my market as how many hobbyists are going to go thru the paperwork? We already see a lot of people shipping usps to get around the prices of UPS and Fed Ex, but most people think USPS can`t even ship amphibs, but they do it anyway and don`t label. Same w/ Fed Ex, as the mailbox etc and retail(store) locations can`t accept live animals, so what`s done? They don`t label them live frogs and do it anyway. I have no answers yet although I do think about it a lot. Well I do but not feasible. That is one facility in the middle of a city, where there are no amphibs, w/ a vet staff and the genetic #`s to sustain pops of amphibs which produces all the US pet frogs. Something like the seed storage bank except for amphibs. I don`t think the govt is giving out money for risky projects right now, wait, they are
I just hope TWI can get free chytrid testing or group discounts going soon. I haven`t been there to check in a long while.
As the guy from Pisces molecular said, they banned live bait in a day that wasn`t VHS tested and declared free(although they still don`t impose chytrid tests, I guess fishing income is more important to them than frogs, how do we make them valuable?), the pet trade should work to impose these restrictions ourselves before it is forced on us.
Sorry, I didn`t have time to sign up.


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## kmk5g

Also, as it will no doubt benefit every member of this discussion group, everyone involved in amphibian conservation, and of course the amphibians themselves, please do your part to promote Save The Frogs Day - April 28th, 2009. 

Here are icons you can add to your website, linked to Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009




















Here is a PDF of the flyer seen below. You can put this up in your pet shop.
http://savethefrogs.com/spread-the-word/images/STF-Day-flyer.pdf









Here is an announcement paragraph you can mail out to your friends or mailing list:

Save The Frogs Day - April 28th, 2009 
Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009

In an effort to raise awareness of the plight of amphibians, the scientific community has declared April 28th, 2009 the 1st Annual 'Save The Frogs Day'. On this day we encourage the appreciation and celebration of amphibians by people from all walks of life. 

Please get involved and help spread the word! Remember that only a small proportion of our public is aware that frogs are disappearing, and that amphibian conservation efforts will not be successful until amphibian declines are common knowledge: think of how long it has taken for any political action on global warming to occur! Politicians rarely act until the public demands action. Our goal is to make the amphibian extinction crisis common knowledge by 2013: help make it happen!

Save The Frogs Day is a perfect time for teachers and students to focus on amphibian conservation, learn about amphibian extinctions, and discuss ways that we can all contribute to amphibian conservation efforts. 

Find out how you can get involved:
Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009


And there are plenty of more ways to spread the word at Frogs are Disappearing - Spread The Word!

Kerry
P.S. If anyone can tell me how to turn off the function that automatically changes all my links to the corresponding page title, it would be appreciated: [email protected]


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## zBrinks

Just received this email from a Herpetology professor at MSU:

NEWS RELEASE
The Center for North American Herpetology
Lawrence, Kansas

24 March 2009

SAVE THE FROGS DAY SCHEDULED FOR 28 APRIL 2009

In an effort to raise awareness of the plight of amphibians, the herpetological community
has declared the last Tuesday of every April as SAVE THE FROGS DAY. On this day we
encourage the appreciation and celebration of anurans by people from all walks of life.

Please get involved and help spread the word. Remember that only a small proportion of
our public is aware that frogs are disappearing, and that amphibian conservation efforts
will not be successful until anuran declines are common knowledge. Think of how long it
has taken for any political action on global warming to occur. Politicians rarely act until the
public demands action. Our goal is to make the anuran extinction crisis common
knowledge by 2013 -- help make it happen.

SAVE THE FROGS DAY is a perfect time for teachers and students to focus on anuran
conservation, learn about anuran extinctions, and discuss ways that we can all contribute
to anuran conservation efforts.

Find out how you can get involved by visiting

Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009

Sponsored by
SAVE THE FROGS!
A Non-profit Organization
SAVE THE FROGS!


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