# Red Lehmanni...or...?



## DartFrogEmpire (Aug 9, 2021)

I purchased this as a "red" lehmanni. Compared to my other 2 red lehmanni this one is more of a washed out/super light pink/white color. Also doesn't seem to have the signature white toes, one of them is white but not the rest. Behavior resembles a lehmanni. What's the general consensus, is this a red lehmanni or something else? I believe it's a female, but am reluctant to pair up with one of my male reds in case it's a different variety.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I'm not trying to be funny here but.....don't you trust the seller?


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## Fangzs (Jul 14, 2020)

I am pretty sure that the tesoros line lehmanni are not as vibrant as the "old line" ones. I could be mistaken but that is definitely a Lehmanni just a different lineage. Correct me or add on if anyone knows more.


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## DartFrogEmpire (Aug 9, 2021)

Thanks for the responses. 

Regarding trusting the seller, no reason not to, however the frog looked DRAMATICALLY different from my other 2, and since I'm relatively new to the hobby, was just checking for blindspots.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

It would be interesting to see to what degree carotenoid supplementation would help to bring out the red.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

all the Red Lehmani are going to produce orange frogs at best. You will never get that bright red color back. I have 3 - 2 from Tesoros bright red and one from Alex that is only orange.


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## DartFrogEmpire (Aug 9, 2021)

tachikoma said:


> It would be interesting to see to what degree carotenoid supplementation would help to bring out the red.


I just got some of that from Ranarium, will definitely see if it helps.

Regarding the red, I have 2 very red lehmannis (as red as my Red Vicentei, definitely not orange) one from a hobbyiest and the other from Idris. So maybe i'm spoiled, but I assumed they were all that red. I think that's part of the reason I was so surprised when I saw this one for the first time. It's always hard to accurately gauge reds/oranges on the internet due to color balances of the photos.


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## DartFrogEmpire (Aug 9, 2021)

Frogs were being helpful this morning and both posed for some pics. Helps more easily see the difference between the light pink v. red.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)




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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

wow...DB allows for such large pics lol


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## jibby (Dec 17, 2020)

I'm soon to get my first lehmanni so this is interesting to read. I have definitely heard that carotenoid supplementation can impact the red color, but have you ever tried any UVB? I'm really excited to get my frogs and test different husbandry practices in attempt to bring out the red. 

Also, does anyone know why the red seems to be lost after longer generations of captive breeding? Other dendrobatids seems to keep such vibrant color (even red frogs like OP's vicentei) but why would lehmanni generally turn orange?


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

jibby said:


> I'm soon to get my first lehmanni so this is interesting to read. I have definitely heard that carotenoid supplementation can impact the red color, but have you ever tried any UVB? I'm really excited to get my frogs and test different husbandry practices in attempt to bring out the red.
> 
> Also, does anyone know why the red seems to be lost after longer generations of captive breeding? Other dendrobatids seems to keep such vibrant color (even red frogs like OP's vicentei) but why would lehmanni generally turn orange?


I would absolutely NOT use UVB with dendrobatids. Yes, they get low level exposure in the wild, but there is more risk than gain. By using UVB on animals that thrive without it, you risk inflicting permanent harm without significant benefit to the animal. If anybody has evidence otherwise, feel free to bring it up!


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## jibby (Dec 17, 2020)

Eurydactylodes said:


> I would absolutely NOT use UVB with dendrobatids. Yes, they get low level exposure in the wild, but there is more risk than gain. By using UVB on animals that thrive without it, you risk inflicting permanent harm without significant benefit to the animal. If anybody has evidence otherwise, feel free to bring it up!


I have definitely heard of hobbyists providing UVB for frogs in brief intervals like once a week. Particularly those with large obligates providing UVB once a week or every few weeks. I would never have a UVB lamp like you may have for certain desert species, but I would imagine most dendrobatids experience moderate levels of UVB for short durations in their natural environment.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

jibby said:


> but I would imagine most dendrobatids experience moderate levels of UVB for short durations in their natural environment


They also experience predation, drought, famine, etc. in their natural environment, so should we provide those as well?
My point here being that there are husbandry considerations that don't match what they would encounter in the wild. UVB is far from a necessity in captive husbandry of dart frogs.


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## jibby (Dec 17, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> They also experience predation, drought, famine, etc. in their natural environment, so should we provide those as well?
> My point here being that there are husbandry considerations that don't match what they would encounter in the wild. UVB is far from a necessity in captive husbandry of dart frogs.


My goal of keeping frogs is to void them of any challenging aspects of their lives in the wild while maintaining as best as I can their natural physiology (I wish I could study lehmanni in the wild). I would never want to subject my own frog to predation, famine, or any other negative consequence that is commonly found in nature.
However, I want to give my animals a good life while emulating the most accurate portrayal of their natural habitat as possible in my own captive environments. UVB is far from a necessity, but it could (_maybe needs to be scientifically proven) be impactful _to some frogs. So, isn’t it worth researching more before completely shutting it down?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

"Far from a necessity" ≠ "shutting it down". 

There is some use of UVB for frogs whose froglets only eat springs. I personally use UVB this way (with uncertain results, BTW). There are some _very _successful obligate keepers who don't -- hence "not necessary".

As for color, frogs do produce UV protective compounds just like humans do; and just like in humans, there are people who think that look (a "tan") is desirable.

There is all sorts of evidence that UVB (and UVA) is "impactful" to all sorts of animals, frogs included. Some of that impact is measurable increase in bone density over no-UVB conditions; whether that is even worth pursuing (that is, bone density greater than the perfectly adequate baseline) is debatable. An argument that holds that it is should also take on board such husbandry changes as feeding wild foods, and providing substantially larger (meters) vivs, as these certainly provide similar benefits.

Whether the risks of providing captive UVB (animals hiding and failing to eat from improper UV provision) and the financial expense of it (fixture, replacement lamps, a Solarmeter to ensure it is being used safely), and the complication of it (not all vivs have the right screen setup to implement UVB well) are outweighed by benefits that in 95%+ of cases cannot be measured except by necropsy in controlled experiment is a big part of what divides the conservative "not necessary" camp from the "every herp must have UVB camp" (this latter pushed in large part by a UVB lamp manufacturer).

A bit of a tangent: "emulating the most accurate portrayal of their natural habitat" isn't necessarily conducive to good captive care. We don't, for example, provide the same temperatures in captivity as in the wild; we provide temps that lead to the best captive outcomes. Wild conditions give us clues as to what captive conditions should be, but I think what should be matched in captivity is the outcomes, not the inputs, since simply inputting wild conditions in a tiny box leads to dead frogs.


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

Shortly after the last post in this thread, a relevant paper came out on Mantella:



Keeping the golden mantella golden: The effect of dietary carotenoid supplementation and UV provision on the colouration and growth of Mantella aurantiaca | Journal of Zoo and Aquarium Research



They demonstrate that UVB can help with carotenoid-based coloration. Their results seem to indicate that as long as the frogs got UVB exposure, or a carotenoid-enhanced diet, or both at once, they gained redder coloration compared to a no-UVB/standard diet control.

My guess is that UVB exposure alters the physiology in such a way that carotenoids that would normally be excreted or maybe stored in fat are then re-routed to the skin, possibly for a photo-protective effect.

For what its worth, I have had UVB on one of my experimental R. sirensis tanks since ~February and the frogs seem to be very happy and extremely prolific. I can't say that the UVB has anything to do with it, but at the very least it doesn't seem to be having any negative effect, at least in the short-term so far.

Is your lehmanni still pale? Carotenoid supplementation could make a huge difference, and UVB might also be worth a try. Andreas Zarling has developed a method for delivering large quantities of carotenoids to the frogs by crop-loading the fruit flies, which is very effective for large Oophaga. If he's on here, he could chime in with some details.

--Evan Twomey


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

Ric Sanchez said:


> For what its worth, I have had UVB on one of my experimental R. sirensis tanks since ~February and the frogs seem to be very happy and extremely prolific. I can't say that the UVB has anything to do with it, but at the very least it doesn't seem to be having any negative effect, at least in the short-term so far.


Intrigued - do you allow your sirensis to raise their tadpoles? IIRC they facultatively egg feed. Does this have anything to do with why you wanted to try UVB on them in particular? Do you think it would benefit other dendrobatids that don't feed trophic eggs?

Also intrigued to hear the responses to the study you posted. I always thought in theory that UVB in moderation makes sense for animals that would be exposed to it in the wild, but by and large the consensus here is that it isn't best for darts.


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

Paluscape said:


> Intrigued - do you allow your sirensis to raise their tadpoles? IIRC they facultatively egg feed. Does this have anything to do with why you wanted to try UVB on them in particular? Do you think it would benefit other dendrobatids that don't feed trophic eggs?


I do allow tadpoles to develop directly in the tank, but I have never seen egg feeding in R. sirensis.

In my experiments with sirensis, the UVB has to do with trying to stimulate the development of their red carotenoid coloration in captivity. Red sirensis are quite weird in that, at least in captivity, they do eventually become red but it can take _years_. So, I wanted to see if I could speed this up a bit, as in the wild they gain their red coloration straight away, like as metamorphs. In the case of sirensis the red coloration is due exclusively to the presence of red carotenoids like astaxanthin and canthaxanthin, which the yellow morph lacks. If you are interested in this, we have a paper on it from a couple years ago (link below) talking about the carotenoids and genes that are likely involved, but there are still a few pieces of the puzzle missing.

"A ketocarotenoid-based colour polymorphism in the Sira poison frog Ranitomeya sirensis indicates novel gene interactions underlying aposematic signal variation"


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/mec.15466


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

An Evan sighting!


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