# Bean Beetles



## Corpus Callosum

For those who culture these, do you have any tips / tricks? Although from what I've been told it seems to be simple stuff. Just wondering, thanks. Also does anyone know the genus / species? Through a search I got Callosobruchus maculatus but I'm not sure.


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## xm41907

Michael,

That is a Bruchid (Family Bruchidae). It does look like its in the genus _Callosobruchus_ but I can't tell for sure if it is _Callosobruchus maculatus_ or not. I don't have a key to species for Bruchids but from what I've looked up, _Callosobruchus maculatus_ is your best bet. 

I've never cultured bean beetles, but I would imagine they are simple. I would maintain some moisture in the enclosure, and change out with fresh beans about every three to four weeks until you can determine their life cycle under your conditions. Best of luck!

James


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## Frognut

do you feed out adults? and if not how would you feed larve?


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## Corpus Callosum

You feed the adults, unlike rice flour beetles where you feed the larvae. They bloom/hatch every 3 weeks or so.


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## argus411

I wouldn't use any moisture at all. Just the black eyed peas with good air flow will be fine.

It is about every three weeks or so and you will be flooded. The adults don't live very long. (maybe 2-3 weeks) But after each bloom the culture can be split and then a layer of new beans added. There has been better luck with giving them more floor space, presumably because the beetles have more access to more beans. 

The only issue is feeding them out. They can be crawling all over the container, then when spooked, they drop into the beans playing dead. Short of placing the whole culture in the viv I haven't thought of a better way. 

If you can think of anything better, please let me know.

Adam


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## NathalieB

I put paper towels of toiletpaper rolls in the cultures. The beetles climb on them and you can take out the pieces of paper and shake the beetles of in your tank.

adding something to drink to your culture will increase the lifespan of your beetles. but not to much and make sure the culture is well ventilated or the beans will mold. (I use water with honey in a film canister filled with cotton balls so the beetles cannot drown)

(and it is Callosobruchus maculatus... this animal is also cultured frequently in laboratories)


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## Arklier

I'm always open to trying new feeders. Where can you get starter cultures?


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## rozdaboff

http://www.beanbeetles.org/

Great source of info. There is a downloadable .pdf of the info there as well.


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## npaull

Sounds pretty cool. How large are these beetles compared to melanogaster? Do the cultures smell? Do the frogs seem to like them?


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## rozdaboff

argus411 said:


> The only issue is feeding them out. They can be crawling all over the container, then when spooked, they drop into the beans playing dead. Short of placing the whole culture in the viv I haven't thought of a better way.


Place folded coffee filters (accordion style) in the culture. When they bloom they crawl in all the folds of the filters. Just take out the filters and tap the beetles in the tank. You won't get out all of your beetles - but enough to feed.



npaull said:


> How large are these beetles compared to melanogaster?


They are larger than a hydei. Not much longer - but wider.



> Do the cultures smell?


There is a *very faint* smell from the beans. Not really noticeable in a fresh culture - but when the beans are pretty chewed up - you can notice it. You won't smell it until you open the culture up though. Again, very faint - barely noticeable.



> Do the frogs seem to like them?


I have only tried them on the few large frogs that I have. Zaparo and anthonyi relish them. Azureus also really enjoy them - which is a surprise given the picky nature of their appetite and food size.


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## AaronAcker

do any of the sponsors carry them? or is there another source?


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## KeroKero

I think there is a question on the legality of being able to distribute these? They are a serious pest species in some areas... None of the sponsors/bug suppliers have begun to distribute them, but there are a growing number of keepers that do. Very nice "stuff on the shelf and forget about" species. I've been trying to share the wealth, but I keep setting up more and more cultures and my frogs keep eating them :? Everyone seems to love them...

Size wise... they are like the roach nymphs... around the same LENGTH as hydei, but about twice the mass. This doesn't stop even picky tinc group frogs tho :shock: Even my truncatus eat them, and I've tested them on my friend's azureus (that was a shocker for me too, the frogs hunted those suckers down!), tincs, and auratus. Some of the frogs are a little weirded out after they nab them, but it hardly stops them from going after the next one after they get it down :roll: PDFs - Allobates, Phyllobates, Tinc group, eggfeeders (I haven't personally tried pumilio - but considering they eat termites...) Epis... honestly the only PDFs I'd say wouldn't go for them are thumbnails just because of size. Mantellas adore them, small/young treefrogs really dig them, what more can I say?

Can't feed the larvae... well I'm sure you could if you wanted to crack open the peas for the larvae that won't move enough to draw attention... not worth it I guess I should say. You culture them for the beetles.

Mine are just kept in FF 32oz containers with an inch or so of beans at the bottom (depending on age of culture as I add more beans each generation). I'll likely add the coffee filter bit because it will make my life soooo much easier.

Please be responsible with these guys when disposing of extras/spent cultures... remember they are a pest species!!! Freeze for 48 hours before tossing to make sure they are dead before they go in the trash.


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## flyangler18

> honestly the only PDFs I'd say wouldn't go for them are thumbnails just because of size.


My imitators each stuffed a couple down not five minutes ago.....wouldn't have believed it until I saw it :shock:


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## KeroKero

:shock: No serious troubles eating them? Holy $#@*)$#@ that's a lot of bug for a small frog!

Ok... so... um... all PDFs like bean beetles :!:


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## flyangler18

> No serious troubles eating them?


Nope, apparently my imis think they're little terriblis! They've tackled hydei without incident, but melanogaster are fed more regularly.


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## KeroKero

Imis have the whole Chihuahua complex... tiny things that think they are big. I knew they could eat hydei but the beetles are 2-3x the mass :shock: Porkers!


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## Dancing frogs

My source says that their pumilo even like them...I would have never guessed, as they look kinda big for such a small frog.


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## KeroKero

The pumilio doesn't suprise me like the imis... I fed my pums termites and the bean beetles aren't that big  Pums luuuuuuuuuuv termites...


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## 41714049

I have been doing some more reading about the little guys and became curious in regards to the nutritional value of the bugs. Does anyone know if the type of bean/pea that they are cultured in can substantially effect the nutritional value of the bugs.

From my research out of all 3 common culture foods, black-eyed peas have the least nutritional value per 100grams. Adzuki takes the mid range in nutritional value. But Mung Beans seem to have some more nutritional value (including more Vitamin A, more Calcium, and some other things that I cant remember).

Is there any way of testing this? Can these bugs in a way be 'gutloaded' with more nutritional value?

Just throwing this out there and wondering if anyone has an opinion on this. It would be valuable information for anyone looking to culture these for their frogs.


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## Corpus Callosum

I was under the impression that the adults only use the beans for breeding, meaning that while the larvae eat the bean (and gain the nutrition) the adults do not. I could be wrong though, maybe someone else who knows can chime in.


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## bellerophon

thats what I've read too, the adults themselves do not consume the beans. I have a feeling this is along the lines of not being able to gut load ff's unless you feed the larvae.


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## 41714049

OK I was not sure. Thanks for clearing that up. Would the beans influence the nutritional value of the adults at all?


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## bellerophon

not sure but I'd say probably not much


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## flyangler18

If there is a difference between bean varieties and corresponding nutritional makeup of the adult beetles, it's probably negligible.


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## KeroKero

Where did my post go :evil: 

I doubt there is significant difference in nutrition based on beans... the bugs tend to have a generally set nutritional value that can't be significantly changed in a way they wouldn't be killed by, and they pretty much take what they need from the food and pass the rest. Since the adults basically don't eat in this way of culturing, there is no way to actually gut load them (which requires feeding them a food that will remain in their digestive tract when eaten by the predator, thus basically carrying the food to the predator, not actually changing the make up of the prey at all). The larvae stay in the beans, and even when removed from the beans are not active, so they are worthless to feed.

Pretty much these guys are just for variation in the diet. FF larvae, pinheads, and roaches are the best for gut loading because they eat such a variety of foods and have significant enough digestive systems that what is in them could actually influence the nutritional value of what the predator ingests.


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## 41714049

What is the actual nutritional value of these beetles compared to say... fruit flies and crickets?


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## 41714049

Is there any difference in production between the beans?


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## bellerophon

yeah, its mentioned on the site linked to earlier


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## 41714049

Must of missed it when I read it.... I will look again. I remember the frog guy I worked with a while back used them and frogs like it but have never really cultured them myself so I am reading up.


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## Corpus Callosum

Well I started with a small culture of these 2 months ago with just 5-10 adults, and have been able to split it a few times. Now I have 4 strong cultures and should be able to split them into 8 in a few days. I'm keeping them on top of my T5's which get pretty warm on top and helps the larvae mature faster and pupate. If anyone attending NAAC wants some I'd be down to trade for other feeders or plants.


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## markbudde

41714049 said:


> Would the beans influence the nutritional value of the adults at all?





bellerophon said:


> not sure but I'd say probably not much





flyangler18 said:


> it's probably negligible.





KeroKero said:


> I doubt there is significant difference in nutrition based on beans...


I feel like I must have missed an earlier conversation on this, as it now seems to be a settled issue. Why do you all think that the nutrition of the beans doesn't correlate too nutrition of adults? I have read scientific papers where the authors grew drosophila on regular food and on "enhanced" food (E-flies), and the predators which ate the drosophila grew better on the E-flies. Does someone have data to refute this?

The reason I'm so curious is because I'm not a big fan of dusting, and would rather feed my frogs a balanced diet. My viv is such that flies have long cleaned off the vitamins by the time that the frogs eat them, so I need to find a better way to give them their vitamins. Does anyone know what frogs eat in the wild that gives them all of their vitamins? Sorry to hijack.


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## Ed

Hi Mark,

What you are pondering is the original discussion and research on gut loading. 
One of the aspects of what you are considering is the issue of calcium to phosphorus ration in the feeder insects. If you are supplying sufficient D3 through the use of UVB exposure then it is in theory possible to modify the calcium to phosphorus ratio in *some* feeder insects through diet manipulation but it is not easy, requires specific consistant controls and will kill the insects (I don't think it works on fruit flies) starting between 48 and 72 hours after they are fed the calcium loading diet. It can be done with crickets, mealworms, wax worms and silkworms. I suspect that roaches can be modified the same way that crickets can also be modified. 

The drawbacks are the same as dusting.. As the insect voids its gut contents, the benefit is lost not counting the increased mortality from the high calcium diets. The reason it works for the frogs in the wild is there is a signficantly greater prey abundance and the frogs can modify thier diet based on the available prey. Yes they do choose food items based on calories and other nutritional contents. We cannot supply the required variety and the conditions to allow this to work for the frogs. For example out of the insects studied for a positive calcium to phosphorus ratio virtually all were soil dwelling invertebrates... 
Some unpublished studies have shown that it takes 12 hours for the flies to groom off all of the supplement. 

Standard FF media is known to produce flies that are lacking in carotenoids, and possibly some amino acids etc... which is why you see those results on enhanced media but you have to also keep in mind that when feeding many inverts you cannot adjust the flies nutrition via a supplement. 

If you go to NAAC, look me up, I'll have my amphibian nutrition talk on the lap top and if there's time I'll go over it with you. (I'm talking on spindly leg syndrome this time). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## markbudde

I would love to go to NAAC and meet everyone, but my schedule doesn't allow it this year.  Let me start by saying that I am just looking for interesting discussion, not trying to say anyone is right or wrong. Based on my reading, but not direct observation, I would say that we may be able to significantly improve the diets of our critters, and we can do this by supplementing the culture media and offering a nutritionally balanced food supply. Specifically, I think offering things like bean beetles, isopods and the correct springtails plus UV light may get us much further than fruit flies.

In regards to the 12 hour vitamin retention time... very cool. I guess they must get some into their joints and under their wings (or maybe they eat it as part of grooming). In regards to gut loading and nutrient modification, here is some published data(fair use). 

From Oecologia 127:207-213 ...
Flies were grown on Fly medium plus supplements and then fed to wolf spiders. The supplements were: fat, amino acids, vitamins, methionine or dogfood (E-flies). The spiders were weighed weekly. The flies fed dogfood resulted in spiders more than double the size of control flies. This shows that fly food can affect fly nutritional quality.









Next, they fed the spiders either flies or E-flies, which had been either fed or starved for 48 hours. If the effect was merely gut loading, as might be suggested, then the starved flies should be of worse nutritional quality. What they saw was that starved flies were just as nutritious as fed flies, suggesting that the nutritional quality of the flies had been altered, not just their gut contents.









I'd also like to bring up another study on prey nutrition and a balanced diet. This is from Oecologia 119:191-197, and I think it is a really cool study. They fed the spiders either springtails, flies, aphids, spiders, fungus gnats or a mix thereof. Spiders grew very well on the springtail, _Tomocerus bidentatus_, which is a large ground dwelling species. They grew OK on drosophila and poorly (hardly at all) on spiders, aphids or fungus gnats. Two species of springtail, _Folsomia candida_ and _Isotoma trispinata_ were worse than starvation, even when mixed in with other food items. The best diet consisted of T. bidentatus and Drosophila mixed together.









This data also makes clear that some varieties of springtail are much better than others. I alluded to this in another post. I am currently culturing another species of springtail which I beleive to be _Orchesella villosa_, in the same subfamily as _H. nitidus_, which has also been shown to be a good food. I tried to culture some Tomocerus, but couldn't get them to lay eggs.

If I ever start getting a significant number of offspring from my frogs, I am going to do a controlled study of the effects of food source on frog growth/health. Sorry about the rambling, but this is hopefully an interesting read for those of you who are bored. :wink:


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## markbudde

I should also say, Ed, do you know a simple was of measuring the Ca/P ratio? This seems to be a most important aspect of the diet. I'm growing my springtails and isopods on plaster, so I assume the have enough calcium around.


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## Dancing frogs

markbudde said:


> 41714049 said:
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> Would the beans influence the nutritional value of the adults at all?
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> bellerophon said:
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> not sure but I'd say probably not much
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> flyangler18 said:
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> it's probably negligible.
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> KeroKero said:
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> I doubt there is significant difference in nutrition based on beans...
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> I feel like I must have missed an earlier conversation on this, as it now seems to be a settled issue. Why do you all think that the nutrition of the beans doesn't correlate too nutrition of adults? I have read scientific papers where the authors grew drosophila on regular food and on "enhanced" food (E-flies), and the predators which ate the drosophila grew better on the E-flies. Does someone have data to refute this?
> 
> The reason I'm so curious is because I'm not a big fan of dusting, and would rather feed my frogs a balanced diet. My viv is such that flies have long cleaned off the vitamins by the time that the frogs eat them, so I need to find a better way to give them their vitamins. Does anyone know what frogs eat in the wild that gives them all of their vitamins? Sorry to hijack.
Click to expand...

markbudde,
I agree with you...or is it I agree with you're disagreement :mrgreen: 

Why is it so far fetched that better food for feeder items means better food for those that are fed with such items?
Shall we also raise our children on soda and donuts, and figure it doesn't matter?


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## Ed

Hi Mark,

The inhibitory factor in the Folsomia candida is a secretion which is toxic to invertebrates (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 99c52c6e8e). I had the information on the exact chemicals teased out a couple of days ago but can't find it off hand. The chemical inhibition works on small invertebrates like mites and spiders but its effects are also size dependent and as the spiders get larger it loses its (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... alCode=pen) effect. This is one of the reasons we have to be careful in translating effects on invertebrates over to interpreted effects on vertebrates. 

With respect to the ffs, I noted above that it is recognized that standard ff media does produce a fly that is deficient in some nutrients and was not saying the flies were gut loaded. Gut loading is dependent on the time it takes for nutrients to pass through the digestive tract, and it appears given the diet that adult ffs have a relatively short digestive tract which directly affects the viability of the gut loading a particular species (and if the gut length is short that could very well explain the the similarity of the starved versus fed flies). (In addition, several studies on supplementing vitamin A and some other nutrients via diet in invertebrates had widely varying results due to gut content levels due to rates of voiding, and developement even when there was an attempt to standardize the age so care must be taken in interpreting the comparision (I think this is the reference but as I said I don't have time to pull the data out (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... .tb01154.x) There is data out there that depending on the invertebrate used and the diet fed the insect, there may be minimal effect on gut loading. (I have to finish getting ready for work and don't have time to pull the direct information out) (I think it was in caterpillars that the analysis was done but would have to look off hand) that when the gut was dissected out of the insect there was minimal change in the nutritional content of the insects. 

More later as I otherwise I'll be late. 

Ed


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## markbudde

Brian, since we are taking about food for feeders, it's not a matter of feeding our kids candy and soda. It's a matter of feeding the chickens that we feed our kids candy and soda.  Unless, of course, you are feeding on kids. :shock: 

Thanks for the insightful response, Ed. I don't have time to look over the references right now, but they seem to really demonstrate the difficulty of comparing nutrition/toxicity between unrelated species. I was thinking that the wolf spider data would at least give some starting points when thinking about nutrition, but perhaps, in light of your response, that assumption was unfounded. I'll check out o=those references later.

I think all of this gets at the fact that, without a controlled study in frogs we can't draw any conclusions about nutritional quality. I'm sure some people have investigated this before, but I'm not at all familiar with the literature. Does anyone (Ed) have any good references?


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## Dancing frogs

markbudde said:


> Brian, since we are taking about food for feeders, it's not a matter of feeding our kids candy and soda. It's a matter of feeding the chickens that we feed our kids candy and soda.  Unless, of course, you are feeding on kids. :shock:


Yeah...dang late night posts!
Get into my belly!


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## Ed

Hi Mark,

With respect to amphibians, it has been determined that in general (as its a very large class of animals) they fit the nutritional requirement profiles determined years ago for domestic animals. To get the actual nutritional profiles of amphibians is both expensive and costly in the terms of animals.. This would be done by taking a group of amphibians and feeding them a diet that was complete as we understand it with the exception of one nutrient. This would continue with animals being sacrificed and necropsied through the series. This would continue with gradual increasing levels of the nutrient until you stopped seeing deficiency related issues and started seeing toxicity related issues. This would then determine the RDA for that nutrient. This would have to be repeated with each nutrient until a complete profile is created and then we could work on the diet.. luckily with some exceptions (like some bufonids apparently have issues with converting beta carotene to retinol), they respond to the RDAs worked out for domestic animals meaning that we can then tweak the system if we are seeing issues (like short tongue syndrome in some bufonids) to resolve it. 
With respect to the feeders, there are a lot of analysis on feeder insects with respect to differnt diets. With some digging you can find articles that not only address the nutrient requirements of the feeder insects (for example, Neville, P.F.; Luckey, T.D.; 1962; Carbohydrate and roughage requirement of the cricket, Acheta domesticus; Journal of Nutrition 78: 139-146 but the make up of some invertebrates Becker, Alexander; Ziegler, Andreas; Epple, Mattias; 2005; The mineral phase in two cuticles of two species of Crustacea consists of magnesium calcite, amorphous calcium carbonate, and amporphous calcium phosphate; Dalton Trans 10: 1814-1820 to gut loading applications like Chamberlain, P.M.; Bull, I.D.; Black, H.I.J.; Ineson, P.; Eve, R.P.; 2005; Fatty acid composition and change in Collembola fed differing identification of trophic biomarkers; Soil Biology & Biochemistry 37: 1608-1624 and so forth.... However the common commercially available feeder insects are the ones that have recieved the most attention (for one article see Finke, Mark D.; Complete nutrient composition of commercially raised invertebrates used as food for insectivores; Zoo Biology 21: 269-285). 
There are also a variety of studies on the metabolic needs of amphibians (for that I refer you to the nutrition chapter in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry for the calculations or to discussions like Gramapurohit, Narahari P.; Shanbhag, A. Bhagyashri; Saidapur, Srinivas K.; 2004; Growth, sexual maturation and body size dimorphism in the Indian bullfrog, Hoplobatrachus tigerinus (Daud); Herpetologica 60(4): 414-419 and Navas, Carlos; Gomes, Fernando R.; Time in captivity as a confounding variable in herpetological research: an example from the metabolic physiology of treefrogs (Scinax); Herpetological Review 32(4): 228-230.... 

Its out there but its pretty widely dispersed...I've made a fair effort to track down and assimilate as much of these items as possible to get the information out to the hobby which is why I usually end up in a nutrition discussion on here or frognet.. but there are some out there that I have been unable to locate (like Studier, E.H.; Sevick, S.H.; 1992; Live mass, water content, nitrogen and mineral levels of some insects from south-central lower Michigan; Comp Biochem Physiol 103A: 579 or Reiche, D.E.; Shanks, M.H.; Crossley, D.A. jr; 1969; Calcium, potassium, and sodium content of forest floor arthropods; Ann Entolol Soc AM 62: 57 and Carter, A.; Cragg, JB.; Concentrations and standing crops of calcium, magnesium,potassium, and sodium in soil and litter arthropods and thier food in an Aspen woodland ecosystem in the Rocky Mountains (Canada); Pedobiologica 16: 379 (to name a few...) 

With respect to your earlier comment about the type of beans having an effect. I would suspect that this is true but it would have to be considered with respect to a whole body analysis of the beetle as they may differentially sequester different nutrients due to metabolic needs. However this also has to be viewed in light of different plants have different levels of some minerals and this may have an effect (this was demonstrated in the pea aphid with different cultivares... see http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script= ... 5000200010 ) when reading this keep in mind that availability of the minerals in the soil can also affect thier levels in the plant.. 

Some rambling comments..... 

Ed


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## KeroKero

I was in no way implying we should be doing the equivilant of feeding them candy and soda :lol: Wouldn't that be funny... what would you beetles like today? Coke? Sprite? Sorry, I didn't get any pepsi, stop being picky... dammit, the straw it bigger than the beetles, here is coke on a wick...

I wonder where the "better' food items became synonymous with gut loaded? I think raising healthy bugs is a good thing... but that doesn't always mean I'm manipulating their diet to get the nutrition ratio I want out of that specific feeder... I try to adjust the diet as a whole to the predator and offer variety of feeders as well as dusting to make up with the lack of variety found in the wild. Dusting is kinda a necessary evil since we can't offer the diet they have in the wild, we make due with what we have.

I think there are a number of difficulties with the nutrition for the beetle issue here... one is the highly selective nature of the beetle. It obviously only does decently on 3 commonly available bean species. What nutrition it actually takes from these species and translates into the adults is not studied as far as I can find with my limited searches, that's obviously not what they are studied for (tho I imagine they are pulling out similar nutritional resources from the various beans and may not actually be that significantly different and I care more about healthy production and healthy beetles than trying to change them and have the beetles suffer for it). Plus, with larvae worthless as feeders (they are as active as pupae practically and nearly impossible to get out of the beans) and the adults non-feeding in these cultures, getting them gut loading is next to impossible with current practices. I take them with their "standard" nutritional differences from the other feeder insects, and count the variety as a blessing... I figure the beans with the best production make for healthy, happy beetles... which make the best snacks for my predators.

I think gut loading may be valid in some pariticular cases (crickets, roaches, fly larvae, moth larvae) but the more specific the feeder, and if there is a pupation/metamorphasis involved, the less inclined I am to believe that I can actually make a significant impact with attempts to gut load. It's a case of pick your battles.

As for froglets and food health... I know my froglets seem to grow like weeds with a variety of foods, and that FFs suck :lol: I've had much better luck with varied substrate fauna and as many feeder insects as I can manage.


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## markbudde

Ed, thanks for the incredibly insightful post. I will have to check out a bunch of those references, I find this whole concept of providing adequate nutrition w/out supplements incredibly appealing. I especially like the idea having a terrarium as a relatively closed system without a regular input of feeders (where dusting is impossible). I don't think bean beetles would work well in such a system. :wink: People's observations with regard to their baby frogs only eating terrarium microfauna make this seem more of a possibility. Corey, you alluded to the fact that frogs grow "like weeds" on some foods, but not flies. Has anyone else noticed food items which are particularly good or poor for growing frogs? For example, a terrarium teeming with grey springtails that frogs do poorly in, or vice versa. I would really like to take some of the voodoo out of microfauna, and try and make a bank of some of them and ID them. Let me know if anyone's interested.

And a note with respect to Ed's comment about nutrition profiles. What I think Ed is describing is working out the RDA for each nutrient for Dendros, and then matching that with known profiles of the bugs, which we can agree is not feasible. All that I am calling for is a mix of bugs which won't require dusting/supplementation. We know that frogs can thrive on a diet on only dusted fruit flies, because that is all that some breeders feed them. We also know that w/o the vitamins, then the frogs are worse off. All we need are a few varied bug sources, which are high in vitamins, fed to a few frogs in a controlled manner. I know this isn't something everyone is interested in, but it interests me. :|

One final note before I head into the electronic stacks to absorb some of Ed's references. Ed, you should make a list of all references that are unavailable to the hobby, but would be beneficial. They should be obtainable somehow, I'm sure I will be able to get a few. If there is a list available, I will try and get them next time I'm in the library.


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## Corpus Callosum

I'm trying to find a paper that deals with the nutritional content of the beetles. Haven't found anything specific enough yet, but a search of Callosobruchus maculatus on google scholar brings up a bunch of interesting articles that relate to other aspects of culturing them.


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## Ed

I had a nice long response with more references typed up and the damn laptop lost the signal and the post... 

I'll try again tomorrow night. 

Ed


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## flyangler18

> I had a nice long response with more references typed up and the damn laptop lost the signal and the post...


Ugh I hate when that happens. You might be able to pull the post back from your browser history.


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## Ed

markbudde said:


> . All that I am calling for is a mix of bugs which won't require dusting/supplementation. We know that frogs can thrive on a diet on only dusted fruit flies, because that is all that some breeders feed them. We also know that w/o the vitamins, then the frogs are worse off. All we need are a few varied bug sources, which are high in vitamins, fed to a few frogs in a controlled manner. I know this isn't something everyone is interested in, but it interests me. :|.



Hi Mark,

Brent Brock has some good observations on pumilio but at this time I don't think we are close to having a system this is going to be able to get away from dusting for several reasons such as ensuring that the frogs have a sufficient source of calcium as we are only now getting to the point of experimenting with substrates that are not calcium poor and are good places to harbor higher invertebrate populations (see the various clay substrate threads here and in the frognet archives). In addition, insects are poor sources of carotenoids and/or vitamin A (based on several studies). This is going to require some level of nutritional input into the enclosure as well as potentially requiring "non-breeding seasons" to allow for maternal sequestering of nutrients for egg production. This is a complex topic that has to be viewed holistically with an eye towards the total enclosure as well as how the frogs are maintained in the enclosure to make real progress towards that end but it is easily possible to reduce the frequency of dusting. 
If you review the articles on diets of the frogs in the wild there are some good articles that contain the type of diet the frogs eat but these analysis maybe skewed on the basis of when the gut contents were examined because depending on the time between capture and examination of the gut contents soft bodied invertebrates may have been digested to the point of being unidentifiable skewing the data... 

On the same note as earlier in the paragraph, it could easily take a year or more for the invertebrate population to stabilize in the enclosure so you would have to work out a feeding schedule based on initial boom and bust cycles of the invertebrate in the enclosure until the populations stabilized. Its a good goal, just complex. Check out Ben Eiben's compost tank here and on frognet. 
Gotta run, don't want to be late for work. 





markbudde said:


> One final note before I head into the electronic stacks to absorb some of Ed's references. Ed, you should make a list of all references that are unavailable to the hobby, but would be beneficial. They should be obtainable somehow, I'm sure I will be able to get a few. If there is a list available, I will try and get them next time I'm in the library.


I'm not entirely sure what isn't available to the hobby as a lot of this has been repeated elsewhere in books and articles (Like the Nutrition chapters in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry etc). 
I just know which ones I haven't been able to readily access. 

Ed


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## KeroKero

Definately check out Ben Eiben's compost tank, and the talks with Brent and Matt on soils... with a large enough tank, the right substrates, and a low enough frog population it seems doable, but still in the early stages.

I've noted much better growth (larger, sturdier froglets) with a pinhead staple diet vs. a FF staple diet... but this is not to say some haven't gotten moster sized frogs from FFs (SMenigoz has some MASSIVE frogs fed only FFs... but he also raised them from teeny tiny things and stuffed them constantly) but that the frogs raised on the pinheads seemed to get larger, faster and just "healthier" IME - I didn't have problems on pinheads but my success rate with froglets of the same species went down with FFs. I now offer a much more varied diet... both to offset a FF staple diet (due to cricket allergies) and just because I get a kick out of playing with new bugs. The froglets I work with now have microfauna in their tanks (7+ species of springs seeded - native and tropical, a couple different iso species) to have a constant food supply along with me feeding as much variety as I can offer for the size. I've had difficulty with some touchy species in the past, and have found the sensitive small froglets do well in basically oversized springtail culture like set ups (with the constant food supply being key). I don't know how much the constant food vs. the variety really plays a roll in the success... but my goal is as much variety in food sources as early as possible.

As for diets in the wild... the info also can be skewed depending on the time of year... some may seasonally feed on certain bugs at certain times of year due to availability, so bug trends are important as well. My frogs get surges of bugs depending on the availability of feeders (like having bean beetles as their almost entire diet for almost a week when they boom, etc) and I order some feeders like silk worms and housefly larvae a few times a year to shake stuff up some more.


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## Dancing frogs

Ok, so my bean weevils have started to produce nicely, but found trying to get the bugs out and leave the beans in a pain...Well, I found an obvious solution:








A sieve that has holes big enough to allow the beetles through, but not the beans...works great!


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## flyangler18

Using a crumpled up coffee filter in the culture works too. The beetles will congregate in the folds of the coffee filter. Pick up and shake off.


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## Dancing frogs

flyangler18 said:


> Using a crumpled up coffee filter in the culture works too. The beetles will congregate in the folds of the coffee filter. Pick up and shake off.


Tried that...trust me...the sieve is the bomb!


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## crb_22601

Thats great, now I just need to find a starter culture. Any Ideas?? :wink:


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## KeroKero

Anyone who has these guys should have enough to start new cultures :lol: Mine just got done a boom otherwise I'd offer. 

I do the toilet paper roll rather than the coffee filter. I don't like disturbing the beans too much (especially since the eggs are on the outside).

These guys are SO easy to ship too... set up a new culture with beetles, let the beetles do their thing and die, and transfer the beans with eggs on them to a container where they won't get shuffled around too much in shipping, and ship! I'm not sure about legality, but you don't have to worry about the cultures being a disaster because they get kicked around like a soccer ball.


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## crb_22601

well if anyone can make me a starter culture, then please pm me. I would love to add an edible beetle to my feeding regime.


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## niccoliherp

Ok, so I recently obtained some bean beetles from a friend for food for baby geckos and tinc group darts. In my research I read this thread a few times and now have a question. Whether or not changing the food of the larvae changed the nutritional value of the adult beetles. However, I didn't understand whether or not the nutritional value of the adult beetles was discussed. I do understand that a varied diet is definitely the way to go for all animals. But I also know that there is usually one food item that constitutes the majority of an animal's diet in captivity. So, my question is: are the adult bean beetles nutritionally valuable enough to be used as the main part of a herp's diet, instead of other insects (such as Drosophilia)? Needless to say, this would be great as they are sooooo easy to culture.

Thanks,


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## Julio

i would not use them as a main diet, they are a little harder to digest with their exoskeleton being a littel tough.


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## donstr

So, everyone has raved about these as a food item but my frogs don't really seem to love them. Does it take a bit for them to get used to eating something harder than a fruit fly? Maybe they do like them but eat far less of them. I don't know. All I know is I sometimes find a few beetles crawling around the house. :|


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## Julio

my Tincts love them and goble them up, my terriblis dont' really seem to pay too much attention to them.


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## markbudde

I put some in with my imis and have never seen them eat them. They are still crawling around 2-3 weeks later. They are kind of cool looking though, and add to the movement in the tank.
-mark


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## Julio

they are rather large food items for thumbnails


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## TDK

After reading this post I thought these must be a weevil of some sort and called my local feed and seed store. They said they are in many of their shipments of corn (for animal feed) and I could buy a 5 lb. bag with them thriving in it for a little over $2.00, which I did. I sugest anyone interested do the same--seems to be a common pest. They also gave me a 50lb. bag of oats with grain moth in them. I had read where the larvae (caterpillar) from these could be fed to frogs--so who has some information on these and how to sepearte the larvae? Can you feed the moth to your frogs?


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## Catfur

TDK said:


> After reading this post I thought these must be a weevil of some sort and called my local feed and seed store. They said they are in many of their shipments of corn (for animal feed) and I could buy a 5 lb. bag with them thriving in it for a little over $2.00, which I did. I sugest anyone interested do the same--seems to be a common pest. They also gave me a 50lb. bag of oats with grain moth in them. I had read where the larvae (caterpillar) from these could be fed to frogs--so who has some information on these and how to sepearte the larvae? Can you feed the moth to your frogs?


They aren't a weevil, and they only eat three types of beans (black eyed peas, mung beans, and adzuki beans). Whatever is infesting your bag of corn isn't Callasobruchis maculatus (the bean beetles everyone is discussing here), but something else. You should tell the rest of us how well the frogs like them.


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## TDK

It seems they are weevils but just another variety. They look to be similar in size and shape but the ones in the corm seem to be a solid dark color. I'll try to feed some to my darts in the near future. I'll aske the feed and seed store manager about the copwea weevil.

Common Name: Cowpea weevils
Scientific Name: Callosobruchus maculatus (Fabricius) 
Order: Coleoptera 
Description: Adult weevils are 1/8-inch long, reddish-brown slightly elongate beetles compared to the typical rounded appearance of other members of this family (bruchids). Although weevil-like they are not true weevils (Curculionidae) and do not have heads prolonged into a long "snout." Wing covers (elytra) are marked with black and gray and there are two black spots near the middle (Note: Ebeling says 2 red spots on elytra!). The elytra are short, leaving the last segment of the abdomen exposed. This last abdominal segment also has two black spots visible. The larva is whitish and somewhat C-shaped with a small head. 

There are a number of other bruchids including stored product pests and species that attack plants in the wild. Other bruchids that feed on stored products include: the pea weevil, Bruchus pisorum (Linnaeus), which feeds primarily on green peas; the broadbean weevil, B. rufimanus Boheman, which prefers kidney beans and lima beans; and the common bean weevil, Acantoscelides obtectus (Say). Adult bruchids sometimes can be quite common on flowers in the springtime. 

Life Cycle: Adults may be found outdoors in flowers in early spring. Eggs laid by females hatch in 5 to 20 days. Larvae typically feed inside the cowpea, taking from 2 weeks to 6 months to develop before pupating there. Six or seven generations may occur per year. 

Habitat and Food Source(s): Mouthparts are for chewing. They prefer dried cowpeas but will attack other beans and peas in storage. Adults move about readily and can infest seeds in the field, but can also breed continuously in stored dry cowpeas. Larvae typically develop inside the dried peas. Larvae chew near the surface and leave a thin covering uneaten which appears as a window. Later the adult emerges from the "window."


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## TDK

Correction--you are right they are not true weevils. TDK


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## John J M

I realize that this is an old post but I just thought I'd mention so anecdotal evidence that they may be more nutritious or nutrient dense than fruit flies. I've been selling some of my extra beetle cultures to local pet shops and some raise chameleons. Their observations are that their chameleon hatchlings grow much faster on these beetles than they do on Hydei flies. Fwiw.


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## John J M

I just happened to come across a great paper on the nutritional value of bean beetles.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kQFnoECAQQBg&usg=AOvVaw1yX4TDzpWIa93OoktLOXtv[/URL]

Very surprised to find that they are very high in Ca and low in P.


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## Johanovich

John J M said:


> I just happened to come across a great paper on the nutritional value of bean beetles.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kQFnoECAQQBg&usg=AOvVaw1yX4TDzpWIa93OoktLOXtv[/URL]
> 
> Very surprised to find that they are very high in Ca and low in P.


The link doesn't seem to work for me, but I assume that you are referring to this article: https://www.ajol.info/index.php/gjpas/article/view/78765/69093

I was also surprised at how much fat they contain.

My experience with bean beetles is that they are a good feeder item for Dendrobates, Phyllobates, Mantella and Afrixalus species. But only in moderate amounts because one of my auratus is more prone to prolapsing and feeding exclusively beetles for a while causes issues for him. If they are mixed with other feeder insects he seems to be fine. I have not fed bean beetles to juveniles.


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## John J M

@ Johanovich Yes, exactly. Don't know why my link didn't work for you. Perhaps because it was a PDF file. Also somewhat surprised that you're having prolapse problems with them since chitin should act like fiber and help with passage. 

Anyway on closer examination I found that the bean beetles (weevil) analyzed in that paper (Acanthoscelides obtectus) is a different genus and species from the bean beetles/weevil aka cowpea beetles that we commonly culture for frogs, so the information may not be valid for our bean beetles/weevils Callosobruchus maculatus .


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## Fahad

I only use them as an occasional food and haven't seen any problems from sub-adult to adult P. terribilis, but I'm sure my feeding frequency/volume is low enough as to be insignificant. These are also frogs that appear to be geared towards larger prey items.


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