# :( I'm worried about my froglets...



## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

I've been waiting excitedly for these froglets to emerge and the first one up the side of the cup has me worried about SLS. I consider myself a noobie-so I've been searching all day on these forums. These are my first tads-and I have 24 others from these parents since march. This froglet appears to have the left leg "stuck" under it and the front legs just look so scrawny to me. I am going to be heart broken if I have to put these froglets down. 

Parents: I feed every day. I rotate daily with a dusting of herptivite and rep-cal w d3. Just recently I have added in Repashy Vitamin A and have dusted 2 times - but how often should I dust w the A?

Tads were kept at room temp in our air conditioned home-usually a 76/77 degrees. I used tad pole tea made from Indian almond leaves and fed 1 time a week until they were about a month old-then fed more often. 

Can someone please give me some input. I hope I'm just being overly worried and this is part of the morphing process, but I have a feeling that something could be wrong. Thanks...









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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Well don't worry about putting anything down until they have lost their tail for a few weeks. You will notice a deformed frog. What you and I consider skinny are two different things, you probably read an old post about sls or something.if you use new supplements and tad bites you shouldn't have to worry.

But who knows, you could be right, the pic isn't that great.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

That doesnt look like SLS to me, but ull know for sure once he gets a little bigger.


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## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

Thank you both. That was the best picture I could get without taking him out of the cup. When I first opened the cup, he hopped a little, but the that left front leg didn't move much. 

Ok, so maybe I'm just super worried, maybe him being up on the side of the cup didn't mean anything, because he is back in the water this evening. 

How often should I be dusting with the vitamin A?


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I agree with Gabe and Gamble, and it sounds like you are doing a great job I have been using human grade vit A once a month, but I believe you can use the Repashy A once a week. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. You can also get the Repashy Plus which many are using as their only supplement. I use it as well, but still rotate the herptivite and dendrocare and the once a month vitamin A. 

Since you are local ..please feel free to contact me with whatever. I am happy the Vegas frog community is gaining a little ground recently. Also you best start upping your fruit fly cultures ..if you have 24 tinctorius froglets, they are gonna eat a lot!


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## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

It's nice to "meet" you! It's nice to see another local on here! Yes, I am definitely upping fly production! I'm like a new mom again over here!


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

The fact hes up on the wall s a good start. I think most SLS froglets cant climb


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## andry (Jun 15, 2010)

I think you have to wait a while before saying it's SLS and I think like David, he wouldn't be able to climb if he had SLS but I could be wrong. I did the same think with my first thumbnail babies. I thought they all had SLS until they grew some and I realized they were fine, they were just babies.


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

andry said:


> I think you have to wait a while before saying it's SLS and I think like David, he wouldn't be able to climb if he had SLS but I could be wrong. I did the same think with my first thumbnail babies. I thought they all had SLS until they grew some and I realized they were fine, they were just babies.


Sls froglets when morphing can suction cup themselves to the side so don't go by that.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm concerned about the right front leg.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogmanroth said:


> Sls froglets when morphing can suction cup themselves to the side so don't go by that.


Correct... 

For some reason, in my experience (and some others I have spoken to (so anecdotal) spindly leg syndrome is often seen in the right leg and if it is in the left leg both legs are affected. 

Ed


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## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

It has definitely been SLS - as far as I know I'm doing everything "right"...but I did read that water temp can affect this. I was keeping my cups uncovered and it may have been too cool due to evaporation. I have since moved them to another part of the house and covered the cups. Praying this is successful. Thank you for all the feedback. I will update as I go along.


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## lightfrogman (Nov 29, 2011)

I think the hardest part is not knowing...and crossing your fingers they get better or make it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MandysMaze said:


> It has definitely been SLS - as far as I know I'm doing everything "right"...but I did read that water temp can affect this. I was keeping my cups uncovered and it may have been too cool due to evaporation. I have since moved them to another part of the house and covered the cups. Praying this is successful. Thank you for all the feedback. I will update as I go along.


On an anecdotal basis the most common cause is actually due to insufficient vitamin A in the form of a retinoid (not beta carotene) in the diet of the adults. 

The data on temperature causing it is simply guesswork as opposed to vitamin A deficiency. 

Some comments

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I so sorry things have not been going easy on your froglets. I am guessing since some time has passed and that you have had more clutches morph badly? What are you feeding the tadpoles? Following Ed's lead, are you still dusting with Repashy A, once a week? 

Do keep updating ..hopefully this batch will be perfect.


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## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

I am trying to figure out where I need to tweak my routine or if the vitamin A was the cause. I read that I can overdose my frogs on Vitamin A as well, so I gave them a break. I will start again this week with the Repashy A 1x per week. In the mean time, out of many froglets that may have been produced prior to my dusting with the A have not been able to use their front limbs. Even if they made it up on the wall and into a container-they were unable to lift their upper bodies. Others just simply couldn't emerge from the water. It was very sad and disappointing. And then...2 days ago, this guy HOPPED out of the cup!  










This froglet appears healthy to me and his front limbs seem to be working well and it seems to be supporting itself. How does it look to you guys? I am hoping the vitamin A was the "cure" and that my froglets from here do well. I welcome any and all wisdom! 

Sally, I would love to pick your brain sometime! 

Thanks!


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## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

Sally, I am currently using Tadpole Bites mixed with Sera Micron to feed my frogs. I'm sorry, I realized I hadn't answered your question.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MandysMaze said:


> but I did read that water temp can affect this.


In temperate zone amphibians like leopard frogs, the water temperature has to be at 86 F or above before any limb abnormalities are noted and in those cases, hind limb deformations are also common so unless you are seeing both front and hind limb deformations, we can rule out temperature. For another species in the dendrobates group, a temperature of 78 F is the preferred deposition temperature which gives some leverage towards being tolerent of higher temperatures than leopard frogs. 
See for example 
http://www.vtwaterquality.org/bass/docs/bs_amphibianmalform.pdf 

reference for auratus http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...48-dendrobates-auratus-thesis.html#post680490

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MandysMaze said:


> I am trying to figure out where I need to tweak my routine or if the vitamin A was the cause. I read that I can overdose my frogs on Vitamin A as well, so I gave them a break. I will start again this week with the Repashy A 1x per week. I


While it is possible to overdose on vitamin A, there is a recommended frequency for using it as the sole vitamin for dusting which is no more than once a week. On anecdotal basis, once you start getting fertility and development of the tadpoles and froglets, it appears (not the qualifiers) that using a multivitamin supplement that contains retinyl acetate or retinly palmitate seems to prevent it from reoccuring. 

SLS often occurs before the limbs begin to develop as it actually impacts the limb bud formation during development before the tadpole even hatches so tadpole diet has a smaller role in correcting it than once was thought. 

Some comments

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Glad to read some success!
You are welcome to pick my brain, such as it is, anytime.


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

srrrio said:


> I agree with Gabe and Gamble, and it sounds like you are doing a great job I have been using human grade vit A once a month, but I believe you can use the Repashy A once a week. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. You can also get the Repashy Plus which many are using as their only supplement. I use it as well, but still rotate the herptivite and dendrocare and the once a month vitamin A.
> 
> Since you are local ..please feel free to contact me with whatever. I am happy the Vegas frog community is gaining a little ground recently. Also you best start upping your fruit fly cultures ..if you have 24 tinctorius froglets, they are gonna eat a lot!



Repashy vitamin a should only be used in the event of repeated bad eggs.the other supplements you are useing supplies them with all they need and any additional especially that often could have a toxic effect.the use of it for the froglets is not recommended.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

marylanddartfrog said:


> Repashy vitamin a should only be used in the event of repeated bad eggs.


Actually this isn't true in the slightest. Bad eggs are simply one indication of deficiency of vitamin A, there are many other symptoms a number of which can only be detected via histopathology done during a necropsy (for example squamous metaplasia). Deficiency of vitamin A has been documeted in a wide variety of anurans to the point where it is considered a chronic issue. 



marylanddartfrog said:


> the other supplements you are useing supplies them with all they need and any additional especially that often could have a toxic effect.


Again, this isn't true either... If we look at the combination of Herptivite/Rep-cal we can see that the sole source of vitamin A is through the use of beta carotene and it has been established that beta carotene is either poorly converted or not converted at all into vitamin A by anurans. 



marylanddartfrog said:


> the use of it for the froglets is not recommended.


Since when? Your implying that deficiency of vitamin A doesn't occur in froglets which is not supported by the current positions in the literature. Vitamin A in a form other than beta carotene is important for froglets as deficiencies can result in (not an all inclusive list) poor or slow growth, inefficiencies in feeding, issues with skin regeneration and/or immune system function..... It is possible that higher mortality in some dendrobatid froglets maybe due to deficiencies of vitamin A. 

For those who are interested I suggest the Amphibian Chapter by Dr. Kevin Wright in Reptile Medicine and Surgery (2nd edition), as this contains a good bit of updated information when compared to Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

I meant adding additional vit a could have a toxic effect if given to the froglets once a week because I have read on here(DB)over and over that it build up and a froglet doesn't deplete its stores as quickly as a laying frog does.thanks for correcting me if I have been reading something that wasnt exactly correct ed.I use all repashy products does the need still persist to add additional vit a to my froglets diet?I use it with my breeders every time I get bad eggs or once a month which ever happens first.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vitamin A in the form of retinoids is a fat soluble vitamin and in theory, it can accumulate until it reaches toxic levels however, that doesn't mean that froglets don't have a real need for vitamin A. Vitamin A is critical for growth (which froglets are actively doing compared to actively reproducing adults) along with multiple other metabolic needs (as noted above). If your froglets came from properly supplemented adults, which also had a diverse carotenoid supplement, and a tadpole diet that contained diverse carotenoids, along with a source of vitamin A (since tadpoles use a different form of vitamin A than frogs or froglets) then you may not need to add additional vitamin A to the supplementing process. As I've noted elsewhere, on an anecdotal basis, using a multisupplement with vitamin A in the acceptable range, doesn't correct vitamin deficiency but once corrected, the multisupplement provides adequate source of vitamin A (but again, they still need a diverse source of carotenoids). 

Some comments

Ed


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## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

I think I have pin pointed the water as the issue. Following directions from a website, I used straight RO water with my tads. All of the eggs were viable from these clutches-which leads me to believe the absence of vitamin A at that time was not a problem. Since changing to spring water and adding a little tad tea- I have froglets emerging healthy. I also don't think it had to do with temperature at this point, although I did move them into a less drafty area just to be safe...so my conclusion is that the RO water probably was striping too much out of the water that the tads needed in order to grow properly. 

Thank you all for your help!~I am quite happy to have healthy froglets!


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

MandysMaze said:


> I think I have pin pointed the water as the issue. Following directions from a website, I used straight RO water with my tads. All of the eggs were viable from these clutches-which leads me to believe the absence of vitamin A at that time was not a problem. Since changing to spring water and adding a little tad tea- I have froglets emerging healthy. I also don't think it had to do with temperature at this point, although I did move them into a less drafty area just to be safe...so my conclusion is that the RO water probably was striping too much out of the water that the tads needed in order to grow properly.
> 
> Thank you all for your help!~I am quite happy to have healthy froglets!


Cool this sounds right. Gratz on the healthy froglets


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## LarryLee (Jan 15, 2012)

Ed,,, I enjoy reading your replies...some are a lot for this ol ******* to decipher!!(my one big word!!)
Congrats on the froglets
Larry


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MandysMaze said:


> area just to be safe...so my conclusion is that the RO water probably was striping too much out of the water that the tads needed in order to grow properly.


The only problem with this theory is that contrary to dogma passed around on the web and elsewhere, RO does not strip anything from the eggs/tadpoles/froglets/frogs..... 


Ed


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## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

Ed, if not the RO or temp - what do you suppose the issue was. My eggs all hatched out and I had cups of tads that seemed to grow well through out until coming out of the water.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MandysMaze said:


> Ed, if not the RO or temp - what do you suppose the issue was. My eggs all hatched out and I had cups of tads that seemed to grow well through out until coming out of the water.


Are you saying that they are having issues when they come out of the water now? 

There are a lot of potential issues.. One of the old recommendations when having bad eggs was that you just had to continue with it, until the frogs "started getting it right"... which was just cover for multiple potential issues. At this time, a lot of developmental/viability issues appear to be resolved when providing enough vitamin A for the frogs, however this doesn't mean that other issues can't be coming into play. Often RO water has a pH between 5-6 due to dissolved CO2 reacting with the water to produce carbonic acid which in turn lowers the pH. As an hypothetical example, an acidic pH is known to cause some plastics to leach chemicals like pthalates which could play a role in viability/developmental issues.. 

As an example, you are adding tadpole tea to "spring water" (which has no regulation on the name so many bottled "spring" waters are often filtered bottled tapwater for an extra cost), and unlike the RO, humic acids will react with dissolved calcium precipitating it out of solution which can actually render it unavailable for the tadpoles/eggs.... Peat and other materials that produce humic acids, have been used for decades in the tropical fish hobby to soften water for the fish (And are a main reason why black water streams are acidic, and very soft (since the calcium and magnesium are precipitated out by the humic acids)...... So if it was due to a lack of calcium ions in the water or even pH, you should have issues with the tadpole tea just like the RO water..... 

Some comments

Ed


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## MandysMaze (Oct 16, 2010)

I just wanted to update as I was looking through older posts. It was a supplement issue. As soon as i switched to the Calcium Plus-My froglets have been emerging from the water perfectly fat and happy little frogs! Here is a recent picture!


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Good to hear


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