# Air movement and orchids



## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

Hi y'all,

I am wondering if I can turn off my computer fan in my viv.

I installed the fan a while back mainly for my micro orchids. 

My micro orchids are doing very well, but my D. imitator pair seems to find the air too drying. 

The frogs are hanging out near a soaker tubing where water drips from at the top of the cork background. I find the frogs in the cups of bromeliads, but they do not stay in the open at all.

I happened to find out how effective my tiny computer fan is by starting up a humidifier this morning for the first time. 

The humidifier can fill up the tank with mist if I had the fan off. If I have the fan and the humidifier turned on together, the mist immediately dissipates from every slits and gaps and never fills up the viv. I never thought that the tiny fan is this effective.

Here's the list of micro orchids that I have:

Lepanthopsis astrophoria starky
Oncidium twinkle yellow
Schoenorchis fragrans

Lapanthopsis has a lot of blooms on it and Oncidium has multiple flower stalks right now.

I am also getting the following in a week:

Pleurothallis grobyi
Cadetia chionantha 

Do you think these orchids will suffer and stop blooming if I turn off the fan? I can put the fan on a timer if necessary to turn it on periodically.

I would like to see my frogs out in the open, but I don't want my orchids to suffer from the lack of air movement.


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Tomoko Schum said:


> Hi y'all,
> 
> I am wondering if I can turn off my computer fan in my viv.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like you are going to have to make a sacrifice here. I'm not able to offer you advice on keeping your orchids happy, but I can offer advice on keeping your frogs happy. I think you see what I'm getting at.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

decrease the frequency that the fans are on. Having them on just a minute or two a few times a day will still be beneficial


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

^^^ This one knows orchids!


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## rollinkansas (Jun 9, 2008)

I keep all of those species in a terrarium without a fan and they are all putting out new growths. The only air movement comes from opening the top to mist once a day. This isn't to say that a fan couldn't help even more, but they will do fine without one as well.


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## WeeNe858 (Sep 13, 2010)

Just like everyone said, you can compromise and meet in the middle with turning off the fan for certain times of the day. Maybe you can turn off the fan when your frogs call or are feeding (whenever that is).


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## laotse (Oct 25, 2011)

rollinkansas said:


> I keep all of those species in a terrarium without a fan and they are all putting out new growths. The only air movement comes from opening the top to mist once a day. This isn't to say that a fan couldn't help even more, but they will do fine without one as well.


I agree, I made the same experience. In my opinion a fan in the terrarium is not necessary.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Since Ive had to rebuild many tanks after my rack failure, I am adding fans to tanks where I never had any before. Keeping a little air movement going is greatfor keeping algae off of glass and keeping the air fresh. I had vivs with only passive ventilation for years and still had plenty of orchid success. The key to orchid success in a viv without active ventilation is to decrease the amount of misting that your vivs get.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

Thank you all.

I can certainly put my fan on a timer and run it for a few minutes a few times a day. I like the fact that my fan clears the condensate from the front glass within a minute.



frogparty said:


> The key to orchid success in a viv without active ventilation is to decrease the amount of misting that your vivs get.


Since I got my old humidier to work, I am excited to mist the tank with it. Can I mist the tank for a minute or so a couple of times a day without affecting the orchids much? I can put the humidifier also on a timer and turn it on for a few minutes in-between the fan running.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Humidifiers are not good for watering plants. Just for keeping humidity up. One thing orchids seriously hate is standing water on their leaves, so keep that in mind when setting your humidifier cycle. Make sure all the droplets have thoroughly evaporated and the plants have plenty of time to get aired out before the next fog cycle. Their roots will likely still need to be watered via hand misting or a misting system


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Humidifiers are not good for watering plants. Just for keeping humidity up. One thing orchids seriously hate is standing water on their leaves, so keep that in mind when setting your humidifier cycle. Make sure all the droplets have thoroughly evaporated and the plants have plenty of time to get aired out before the next fog cycle. Their roots will likely still need to be watered via hand misting or a misting system


Thanks. I will put the fan on a timer and play with the fan cycle. 

Since I just got my old humidifier to work, I'd like to try it for awhile (at least until the initial excitement wears off.) If I run the fan periodically even for a short period, I think the orchid leaves will dry between the fog cycles. 

As I was experimenting with the humidifier in the hope of increasing the humidity, I saw that the fan was moving air (fog) well enough to keep the center of the viv dry. While the fan is barely moving orchid leaves near it, the tip ends of my brom leaves near the fan appear a bit dry. 

With these improvements, I hope my imitators will come out into the open more...


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## taherman (Sep 5, 2008)

You can also put the fan on a lower voltage transformer (or variable voltage to give you some options) to lower the velocity of air movement. 4.5-5V should be plenty for a vivarium fan.

Tim


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Bear in mind, many epiphytes appreciate some moving air--not just orchids. These include many bromeliads (esp. tillandsias) anthuriums, peperomias, dischidias, hoya, ant plants, etc. Usually mosses, selaginellas, ferns, soft begonias, creeping ficus, cissus, pleurothallids tolerate more "stagnation." (Although some do not like water droplets on their fronds or leaves.)

How big is this tank?? Do you have any pics? This can help us to help you decide on fan size/speed. 

I have a two-part suggestion:

1) Only use the fan during the day, when lights are on; let the air "saturate" a bit at night. Many epiphytes, including orchids, can deal with fluctuations (e.g., they can deal with warm days as long as it cools at night.)

2) Can you set the fogger/humidifier on for a few spurts during the day? I am unclear here: What is the humidity reading, say, 10 minutes after a spray vs. 1 hour after a spray? Can you tell us those #s? Is it something like, 88 vs. 58%? Something that extreme?


ALSO, from what I understand, _Schoenorchis fragrans_ does not need or want the same high level of humidity as the pleurothallids. Of the orchids you listed, it appreciates more ventilation. So if you decide to cut down on the fan, you may have to stick to high-humidity lovers in this tank. 

Hope this helps.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

Here's the picture of my viv:










It does not show my orchids very well, but they have been doing well.

With the fan on, the humidity in the viv is 80% at 75 degrees F. (Measured in the front right corner near the ground.) 
Before the fan comes on in the morning, the humidity is 98% at 68 degrees F.

The center of the viv is much dryer when the fan is on. 

I experimented with the humidifier yesterday. When I turned on the fog for a few minutes with the fan turned off, the leaves was glistening with moisture. After I turned the fan back on, the leaves dried up very quickly while I watched. It took less than a minute.

The reason for the humidifier was to increase the moisture level with the fan on in the viv. I have been trying to get my imitator varadero to come out in the open from where they usually hang out (behind a 1/4 inch soaker tubing). I was told that the increase in the moisture level with more leaf litter on the ground may encourage the frogs to come out into the open.

It turned out that the humidifier does not work well with the fan on. 
I suppose the next logical step is to try to reduce the number of hours that the fan is turned on and see if this encourages my frogs to come out.

I am not hell bent on using the humidifier. It was a fun, creative exercise to reuse an old equipment that was sitting around for years.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

1) First off: Nice tank! How big?

2) Hmnn... Now I admit I don't keep PDFs; hylids and rhacophorids for me. 80% humidity is not enough enough to keep imitator in the open? Wow... 

3) My question is this: Do all the plants you grow really appreciate 98% humidity? That is almost saturation. I readily defer to someone with more experience growing epiphytes under these conditions. 

For myself, I grow some epiphytes on the porch starting in April; some mounted, some in open slatted baskets. They all enjoy the combination of day/night fluctuation in temp, moving air, 60-80% humidity. Of course, vrieseas, tillandsias, anthuriums, encyclia, epiphytic cacti are NOT pleurothallids! (Maybe it comes down to the square/cube law, where you are working with much smaller organisms that can lose water faster.) 

Again, on this one I defer. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Many Pleurothallids actually do need humidity in the 90s at all times. These are cloud forest species without any means of water storage (no pseudobulbs) and are very delicate. In general...80% humidity should be fine for the more robust Pleuros, along with Bulbophyllums andany other orchid you want to try out. Your options are a lot more diverse than the commonly seen plants here. Look into Gastrochilus(bellinus and japonicus) Haraella, Trias, Dockrillia, Dendrobium (oligophyllum and other minis) and more for miniature tropical orchids perfectly suited to terratiums with slightly lower humidity and higher temps. 

Theres a distinct chance your imis are just shy, and will come out when they mature sexually and feel more at home. I wouldtry adding more leaf litter on the ground in lieu of the moss and see how they do.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

Groundhog said:


> 1) First off: Nice tank! How big?


Thank you. It's 18 x 18 x 24.



> 2) Hmnn... Now I admit I don't keep PDFs; hylids and rhacophorids for me. 80% humidity is not enough enough to keep imitator in the open? Wow...


The 80% is at the perimeter of the tank. The center of the tank where the fan is circulating the air most strongly is probably much less than 80%. I have not measured it there. But the dews on leaves dry up really fast there. 



> 3) My question is this: Do all the plants you grow really appreciate 98% humidity? That is almost saturation. I readily defer to someone with more experience growing epiphytes under these conditions.


I believe that my plants are benefitting from air circulation and the resulting reduction in the humididy down to 80% or less.

My peperomia prostrata is doing okay although it did not seem to like the summer high temp and humidity (it was doing better in winter/spring.) It is coming around pretty well in a shaded area. 

Java mosses are doing fine due to the watering on the tree stump (delivered by a tiny drip irrigation sprinker head.)

I have other vines that are doing great and some seeminingly wanting less light.

Tiny Strawberry Cream Rex begonia and another larger begonia did okay for the winter- spring but failed in the summer time.

Rhaphidophora pachyphylla is still there, but it has not done well.

Ficus pumila quercifolia on the cork background is hanging in there, but it might like the atmosphere or the background to be less humid. They are doing great in my other viv where the cork background is left dry (although the humidity may be just as high as this one.)


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Many Pleurothallids actually do need humidity in the 90s at all times. These are cloud forest species without any means of water storage (no pseudobulbs) and are very delicate. In general...80% humidity should be fine for the more robust Pleuros, along with Bulbophyllums andany other orchid you want to try out. Your options are a lot more diverse than the commonly seen plants here. Look into Gastrochilus(bellinus and japonicus) Haraella, Trias, Dockrillia, Dendrobium (oligophyllum and other minis) and more for miniature tropical orchids perfectly suited to terratiums with slightly lower humidity and higher temps.


Thank you!! I will look into those that you suggested. Some pictures of Gastrochilus japonicus that I saw were very lovely.



> Theres a distinct chance your imis are just shy, and will come out when they mature sexually and feel more at home. I wouldtry adding more leaf litter on the ground in lieu of the moss and see how they do.


I have added more leaf litter since taking that picture. I need to stop looking into the viv so much. I'm afraid that they are scared of me. 

The varaderos have been in there since the end of April. They may be just shy as you suggest. 

However, I am going to try to cut down on the fan duration for the next few weeks and see what happens. If the change does not encourage the imis to come out in the open, I will put the fan back to the current schedule, which is from light on to light out (about 14 hrs.)


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Tomoko Schum said:


> Thank you. It's 18 x 18 x 24.
> 
> My peperomia prostrata is doing okay although it did not seem to like the summer high temp and humidity (it was doing better in winter/spring.) It is coming around pretty well in a shaded area.
> 
> Tiny Strawberry Cream Rex begonia and another larger begonia did okay for the winter- spring but failed in the summer time.


Two suggestions:

1) Yes, I have seen this with _Pep prostrata_. Either move if off the floor, or try _Pep angulata_ (now quadrangularis?). But all peperomias appreciate a well-drained substrate.

2) Rex begonias are a pain in the ass. Try _Begonia_ 'Little darling'--it's a cute little rhizomatous that seems pretty durable. Begonia 'Manaus' does well in tanks, but can become quite vigorous (it is a trailer, not a rhizo). If you don't need to stay biotopical, the West African hybrid 'Buttercup' is a great terrarium plant--maybe the best terrarium begonia.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

Groundhog said:


> Two suggestions:
> 
> 1) Yes, I have seen this with _Pep prostrata_. Either move if off the floor, or try _Pep angulata_ (now quadrangularis?). But all peperomias appreciate a well-drained substrate.
> 
> 2) Rex begonias are a pain in the ass. Try _Begonia_ 'Little darling'--it's a cute little rhizomatous that seems pretty durable. Begonia 'Manaus' does well in tanks, but can become quite vigorous (it is a trailer, not a rhizo). If you don't need to stay biotopical, the West African hybrid 'Buttercup' is a great terrarium plant--maybe the best terrarium begonia.


Thanks. I will take a cutting of the peperomia and move it to another location. I was also considering the Little darling begonia. 

I just got Sinningia musicola. I am hoping that it will do well in the viv.


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## inka4040 (Oct 14, 2010)

I'd love to know what sort of fan you're running. Even with a single short hand misting daily, and the fan running for as long as the lights are on, my viv still runs somewhat wet. 

On another note, do you happen to be the same Tomoko Schum who translates Takashi Amano's writing?


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

i noticed within all this talk of humidity, fans, humidifiers, and plants.. nobody chimed in on the varadero.. I have had my pair of varadero in a few different vivs.. a couple past builds failed forcing me to move them.. Now, they are in a new setup which they have reared 2 offspring thus far.. Long story short.. perhaps its not the viv conditions.. maybe you just have shy frogs? Since our 2 have started breeding and setting up there key hiding zones I rarely see our male. He has always been shy since day one of getting him. Our female on the other hand has the mentality of an Azureus. She is always out in the open and literally sits on the leaf I dump flies onto at feeding. Dont beat yourself up completely with the idea your frogs are not happy. Perhaps they are still just shy. How long have they been in this setup? You hear more stories of shy varadero than you do of bold ones and how I see it is, as long as they keep eating and my boy keeps calling and fertilizing those eggs, he can be as shy and hidden as he likes.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

inka4040 said:


> I'd love to know what sort of fan you're running. Even with a single short hand misting daily, and the fan running for as long as the lights are on, my viv still runs somewhat wet.
> 
> On another note, do you happen to be the same Tomoko Schum who translates Takashi Amano's writing?


Hi Inka,

I am running a 60 mm case fan (with the flow rate up to 24 CFM) that I bought from Newegg. It's silent but powerful enough for my viv. You can take a look at the spec for it by clicking on "detail" in the following URL.

Newegg.com - Vantec Thermoflow 60mm Double Ball BearingTemperature Controlled Case Fan - Model TF6025

You might want to find a fan that has a higher flow rate if your fan is not as powerful as you want.

Yes, I am the one who translates Amano's article for TFH and AGA's The Aquatic Gardeners magazine. 


Nismo95 - 

Thank you. Here's an update on the varadero.

I turned off the fan yesterday morning after the heavy dews on the glass door cleared (took 50 minutes.) In the late afternoon, I took a look in the viv and found my male varadero hanging out on the bromeliad's leaf in the center. He did not seem to mind me sneaking a peek. I did not see the female, but I hope she will join him soon.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

Inka - 

I forgot to mention that I have a one inch wide screened vent across the top of the viv. The rest of the top is glassed in.


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## Guanton75 (Apr 30, 2009)

Something else to keep in mind is where the fan is sourcing the air it's moving from. If the fan is entirely inside the terrarium then it will be moving humid air, it will still dry things off because you are adding energy to the air by moving it but not as much. If the fan is pulling air from outside the tank then it is likely very dry air that will dry out the tank. While you might not be intentionally pulling air from outside, there might be a door crack or vent near by that is supplying outside air.

I also have my fans set up on a timer so they are on 25% of the time.

BTW, sharp looking tank!

Enjoy,
Seth


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