# Secure wood to background before adding clay... Or else



## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Well... I used a heavy piece of wood on my last clay background... I never siliconed or great stuffed it to the background beforehand. Today, it fell off of the background, luckily not hurting any of the frogs. Now I just have it leaning against the background, with no clue what to do with it. So... just a word of warning so you guys don't make the same mistake I did: Secure heavy pieces of wood to the background or else they will fall off weeks later.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

The whole background just fell apart. I think I'm gonna have to tear everything out and start over... with great stuff this time. I'm incredibly angry right now.


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

Eugh that has to suck. Thanks for sharing your lesson though


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Yea... well at least I get to do another build now.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mitch said:


> The whole background just fell apart. I think I'm gonna have to tear everything out and start over... with great stuff this time. I'm incredibly angry right now.


 
Did you use kitty litter? 

Ed


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Ed said:


> Did you use kitty litter?
> 
> Ed


Yea. I knew it wasn't a good idea since the beginning...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I was going to ask that myself. Three of my first four clay walls made of bentonite have either collapsed or slumped to the point I had to redo viv. Just like you predicted Ed! I just now finished pulling my 4 green Lamasi And stripping their wall out!


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I was going to ask that myself. Three of my first four clay walls made of bentonite have either collapsed or slumped to the point I had to redo viv. Just like you predicted Ed! I just now finished pulling my 4 green Lamasi And stripping their wall out!


Glad I'm not the only one who went through this. Check out the new sig...


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Wow I never thought there was a real negative side to clay. For the last couple months all I have been reading was "I'll never go back to (insert previous build methods here)." Sorry about your viv, hope the new build works out better for you.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I love it Mitch!! Yous new sig I mean. Try this one out next time. 
I am now using this mixture. 75 percent Redart dry powdered clay from any pottery supply store. 25 percent powdered Bentonite (sodium or Calcium) clay. Now into this I mix in 25 percent organics (peat, coco fiber, ground up sphagnum...any or a mix). I like to mix this dry and then add water until it reaches the consistancy of modeling clay. I also much prefer the color of this clay mix. 
Also read this thread. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/59903-clay-fail.html


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

I think I'm done with any clay for the time being. Just gonna stick with great stuff for the re-build. Tomorrow I guess I'll buy a 10g with a glass lid and stick the azureus and all the new plants I ordered in there with them.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Let me ask you people with failed clay backgrounds; do you build your background sitting on the false bottom or up in the air? Do you build it upright or laying down and then turn it up?

I'm trying to figure out what's happening to some people's builds. I haven't had any problems with my kitty litter and won't be giving it up until I can find a clay store. 

When I build mine, I put the false bottom in first. Then (with the tank upright) start adding the clay from the bottom up (with it resting firmly on the false bottom for support). I keep the base of the background a little thicker than the top. Large pieces of wood have one end on the bottom for support. 

I don't know if it's the type of litter or they way the clay is applied. It's a shame, though, because it's such an easy and versatile way to do a background.


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

frogface said:


> I don't know if it's the type of litter or they way the clay is applied. It's a shame, though, because it's such an easy and versatile way to do a background.


Agreed. It only cost me $2 to make.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

alex111683 said:


> Wow I never thought there was a real negative side to clay. For the last couple months all I have been reading was "I'll never go back to (insert previous build methods here)." Sorry about your viv, hope the new build works out better for you.


It is fine but people have been going in all kinds of directions on it and often people are doing all kinds of stuff with it without thinking how it may affect the structure. Somewhere on the forum are pictures of a tank where I built a rock wall using bentonite as the method of securing the stones into place for the drip wall... but I spent a lot of time getting the microbial growths going to stabilize it..before increased the water flow... 

If you use a clay background one of the things that people often do is keep it too wet initially (for some reason there is alot of fear over cracking).. in effect this ends up creating a mud slide as there isn't anything to hold the clay into place and the excess water destabilizes the clay.. 
If you added something to increase microbial growth in the clay and reduced watering.. you would have a good chance of getting a very different outcome. 

People forget that when using powdered clays.. there is little or no structure for support for a background.. and adding too much water too early will prevent the stability from occuring... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Let me ask you people with failed clay backgrounds; do you build your background sitting on the false bottom or up in the air? Do you build it upright or laying down and then turn it up?
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what's happening to some people's builds. I haven't had any problems with my kitty litter and won't be giving it up until I can find a clay store.
> 
> ...


Unless there isn't any other option, I have my tanks turned onto the back to allow for the clay to set.. 
I suspect the major reason these backgrounds fail is too much water too soon... 

Ed


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

Ed how long do you suggest letting it set before introduce any liquids? (excluding waterfalls/drip walls)


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

frogface said:


> Let me ask you people with failed clay backgrounds; do you build your background sitting on the false bottom or up in the air? Do you build it upright or laying down and then turn it up?
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what's happening to some people's builds. I haven't had any problems with my kitty litter and won't be giving it up until I can find a clay store.
> 
> ...


No false bottom on this tank, just a simple gravel drainage layer. The clay had no support on the bottom, it was just in the "air." The wood was near the top of the tank, where I built up the clay thicker then at the bottom. The tank was built on it's back. I guess structurally it wasn't the best, but the clay seemed a little weak. The wood wasn't _that_ heavy... probably 5-7 lbs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mitch said:


> No false bottom on this tank, just a simple gravel drainage layer. The clay had no support on the bottom, it was just in the "air." The wood was near the top of the tank, where I built up the clay thicker then at the bottom. The tank was built on it's back. I guess structurally it wasn't the best, but the clay seemed a little weak. The wood wasn't _that_ heavy... probably 5-7 lbs.


The problem is that the wetter you get the clay the more it destabilizes.. If you were misting it daily or more than once a day it will continue to hydrate the clay.. and at some point it will fail... This is a problem until the clay develops enough of a microbial and root fauna to bind it all together it can only tolerate a limited level of hydration. 

When working with clay until it stabilizes people should pay attention to thier enclosures as they will discover that they will require much much less water to maintain the same levels of moisture. The enclosure I have with a drip wall now only runs for about 2 minutes a day and I bet I could cut that back to about 30 seconds if I put a better timer on it.. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Arpeggio said:


> Ed how long do you suggest letting it set before introduce any liquids? (excluding waterfalls/drip walls)


It depends on how you make your background clay as well.. If you took a pottery class.. think of it as a slip clay.. I mix my clay very well hydrated and then filter it until it reaches the thickness I want (for background like spackle) and let it set for between 24-48 hours before I turn the tank back upright. This allows for the clay to form some structure and set before it is messed with.. after it is turned up I keep it barely moist which varies depending on the amount of air flow in the tank.. cracking at the top of the enclosure doesn't mean the clay is unstable.. just that the clay is drying slightly and shrinking.. If you consider it in a visually unappealing location, push some more clay into those spots and lightly mist it. Don't overwet it.. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Mitch said:


> No false bottom on this tank, just a simple gravel drainage layer. The clay had no support on the bottom, it was just in the "air." The wood was near the top of the tank, where I built up the clay thicker then at the bottom. The tank was built on it's back. I guess structurally it wasn't the best, but the clay seemed a little weak. The wood wasn't _that_ heavy... probably 5-7 lbs.


I built mine a couple inches thick on the bottom, tapering to one inch thick near the top. Organic material is about 25%. Plants and smaller pieces of wood are everywhere on the background, which I pressed into place as firmly as possible, and the clay was _only just as wet as it needed to be in order to stick to itself and the background, not fully saturated._ When I applied it there were still whole granules in the mixture in places. I have a 3-pound, 16-inch branch projecting from the background and partially adhered to the right side of the tank. It did seem to hold fine in 1 1/2 inches of clay; however, I saw fit to bolster it with 2-3 inches of clay all around. 
I have been misting every few days moderately, and by hand selectively, not drenching the structure. It has been intact for 3 months.

My question is--how long should you withold from moderate to heavy misting in order to allow proper buildup of roots and microfauna?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> My question is--how long should you withold from moderate to heavy misting in order to allow proper buildup of roots and microfauna?


It depends... I can't give a good direction as I can't test it myself but if there is good root growth through the material you can probably increase the misting amount if it is needed... 

People should also keep in mind that clay backgrounds need less watering for plants and humidity once set up than do backgrounds made from cork, treefern fiber or other more "traditiona" backgrounds as they retain more water like a moist soil. They also keep the humidity higher in tanks and these items should be taken into considerations when planning your misting schedule. 

Ed


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Ed, I remember in one of these kitty litter posts you mentioned that kitty litter should soak at least 24 hours to make sure it is fully hydrated. I have read a lot of clay build threads since where people soaked the kitty litter for a few hours or even less


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't soak my litter at all. It softens up immediately. I put the litter and whatever filler into a bucket, slowly add water and smoosh it with my hands, then immediately apply it to the tank once it's well mixed. Sometimes I need to add more water, sometimes more clay. I find that it works best for me if, after mixing, I am able to roll it into a ball without it sticking to my hands. 

I think it's going to depend on the litter.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeffr said:


> Ed, I remember in one of these kitty litter posts you mentioned that kitty litter should soak at least 24 hours to make sure it is fully hydrated. I have read a lot of clay build threads since where people soaked the kitty litter for a few hours or even less


I think that was in reference to people discussing sections that aren't softening. You could let the clay sit in the water for a week and end up with the same product if you filter the extra water out and let it set.. (this is a benefit of clay).... 

I know I fully hydrate my clays by making a slurry and then filtering as I can fully incorporate the organics I want to add to the clay with a minimal effort (using a paint mixer on a big drill, no need to work my arms until they hurt). If I let the clay rest long enough after filtering (usually about 24 hours), I actually can get sheets that can be picked up as a whole sheet (I think this is called the leathery stage..). 

You can have a workable clay that is not fully hydrated.. I can't vouch for how that is going to work.. as a lot of it is going to depend on the clay, rate of moisture penetration and how much and how often water is supplied and the rate of colonization by roots and microbed. 

Ed


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Sorry for caps but I need to vent.

I HATE CLAY SO MUCH. I HATE IT. I HATE IT. 

I had some awesome pieces of wood in my 30H stuck into the clay. The tank has been growing in for a while now and the moss growth on the wood was awesome. It was beautiful bright green moss and some really cool liverworts that popped up everywhere. Today, after MONTHS of staying perfectly in place, it decides to fall down. Now the tank has a huge gap in the background with holes where you can see through the back at the wall behind the tank. It looks horrible. 

STUPID KITTY LITTER IS GOOD FOR NOTHING AND SUCKS AS A BACKGROUND MATERIAL. IT'S NOT EVEN REAL CLAY I DON'T KNOW WHY ANYONE WOULD USE IT!!!


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

And this is the SECOND TIME this has happened. I'M SO ANGRY!


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Wow that sucks, sorry to hear that dude!! I think I'll just stick with great stuff as opposed to switching it up for future builds. I just need to try something other than coco fiber as the covering material.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

freaky_tah said:


> Wow that sucks, sorry to hear that dude!! I think I'll just stick with great stuff as opposed to switching it up for future builds. I just need to try something other than coco fiber as the covering material.


I've been experimenting with other background materials too. My favorite so far is tree fern fiber. I used in on one of my 18x18x18 Zoo Meds. Check it out in the Member's frogs and vivariums section. I just posted it a few minutes ago.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Mitch said:


> I've been experimenting with other background materials too. My favorite so far is tree fern fiber. I used in on one of my 18x18x18 Zoo Meds. Check it out in the Member's frogs and vivariums section. I just posted it a few minutes ago.


I know you are mad at the clay and all, but what about watering down the clay and pressing it into the tree fern panel? That would be cool, and it would hold itself up b/c of the tree fern. I'm not saying to build it out further than the depth of the tree fern panel, but just press it down into the crevices.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> I know you are mad at the clay and all, but what about watering down the clay and pressing it into the tree fern panel? That would be cool, and it would hold itself up b/c of the tree fern. I'm not saying to build it out further than the depth of the tree fern panel, but just press it down into the crevices.


That could work, but I have the tree fern loose, it's silicones to the great stuff. That would be too much background IMO. Also I think tree fern looks very nice, an putting ugly clay on it would ruin the look. I only used clay because it is functional, but now I see that it can have it's downfalls.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I would like to try tree fern panels in a few tanks. After the first two EcoWeb builds i found that the ecoweb dries TOO fast and would of benefit from a continous drip wall. I don't feel like going through all that hassle. This latest build consits of mostly GS with a few nice pieces of corkbark and chunks of Ecoweb where I may plant a few orchids or other vining plants as it does make a good anchor point but a pain the arse to mount a brom to. GS for broms, Ecoweb for vines. Hopefully it works out.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Mitch said:


> That could work, but I have the tree fern loose, it's silicones to the great stuff. That would be too much background IMO. Also I think tree fern looks very nice, an putting ugly clay on it would ruin the look. I only used clay because it is functional, but now I see that it can have it's downfalls.


I am thinking of doing just this. I have a tree fern panel that I think would grow plants more efficiently if a bit of clay were daubed onto it. Ugly, perhaps, but functional is my game here. Once covered in plants/vines/liverworts it will look hoss-ome


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> I am thinking of doing just this. I have a tree fern panel that I think would grow plants more efficiently if a bit of clay were daubed onto it. Ugly, perhaps, but functional is my game here. Once covered in plants/vines/liverworts it will look hoss-ome


Yea, that would definitely look cool. Please don't use crappy kitty litter though!!! Some redart and sodium bentonite would be better... much better.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Mitch said:


> Yea, that would definitely look cool. Please don't use crappy kitty litter though!!! Some redart and sodium bentonite would be better... much better.


Hey! Stop dissing my crappy kitty litter


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

frogface said:


> Hey! Stop dissing my crappy kitty litter


I don't need to... once that nice piece of wood falls off of the background you'll join me in dissing it too


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Until the clay is fully stabilized you have to expect things like this to happen.. and fully stabilized can take months as it needs the roots etc to be able to add structure and support. 
Think of it this way.. you basically pushed something into it and then slowly overtime pushed down on it causing it to act as a lever. If there were plants on the branches this creates even more weight pushing down on it.. 


Ed


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Ed said:


> Until the clay is fully stabilized you have to expect things like this to happen.. and fully stabilized can take months as it needs the roots etc to be able to add structure and support.
> Think of it this way.. you basically pushed something into it and then slowly overtime pushed down on it causing it to act as a lever. If there were plants on the branches this creates even more weight pushing down on it..
> 
> 
> Ed


Yea, this is what I was thinking. But Ed... you know everything.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mitch said:


> Yea, this is what I was thinking. But Ed... you know everything.


Ha! I wish... well actually I don't because then things would be boring.. 

I thought about this when I put some of the tanks together a long time ago. 

If you are going with the treefern fiber, consider getting the hole ready for the wood before you attach it to the side of the tank. After you silicone it, and the treefern has dried, you can turn the tank on it's side and use a zip lock bag as an "piping bag" for cake icing to get the clay into the treefern fiber. This will work better than attempting to mash it into place. Once it sets you can then turn the tank back up right and not worry about the structure. Some will flake off but most should stay in the fiber and hold more moisture. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Mitch

Don't forget to use gravity when you're mounting your wood in clay (if you ever go back there). I have a 29g tank that is held together with only clay and gravity, no adhesives at all. It's been going well for about 8 months now. Wood pieces, false bottom and all!


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## jlb (Oct 15, 2006)

Nearly 6 months and all is well! Ivy is growing like a weed, my 2 Leucs are too, but no calling yet. Hopefully my clay will continue to do well. Dr. Elseys brand cat litter from Petsmart. The third picture is my best one to date!!! It was taken with a P.O.S. Kodac Easy Share C613 that has been dropped about 100 times!!! HA!!!


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Arpeggio said:


> Agreed. It only cost me $2 to make.


What type of kitty litter are you using?


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