# How Much Time Did You Personally Spend Reading Before Postin



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

How Much Time Did You Personally Spend Reading Before Posting?

Simple question. Very curious. I'd say I read for about a year.

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

A year and a half or more.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmmm. I lurked on DB for around a year, then finally registered and started posting. We'll call it making it up for lost time.....


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

OK, so far we have an average of at least a year.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> OK, so far we have an average of at least a year.


But I wouldn't think that is representative of this board or most forums, mind you. I suspect people come to forums with the intention of getting more or less quick answers, so registrations/same day postings are probably more the norm.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

a month or so. i had lots of questions!


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> I suspect people come to forums with the intention of getting more or less quick answers, so registrations/same day postings are probably more the norm.


Exaclty, and that is why people ask the same questions over and over. They genuinly don't know and that's fine, but they probably didn't do any research either.


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

I personally exhaust every other avenue of imformation gathering before posting questions.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> flyangler18 said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect people come to forums with the intention of getting more or less quick answers, so registrations/same day postings are probably more the norm.
> ...


Asking questions is not real research if you ask me. It is a way to get around doing research. For example; How many frogs can I put in a 10gal? How much research was involved and what answer is that person going to get from that question that has been asked at least 1000 times on this forum alone? Instead of asking how about searching for the answer therefore finding the thousands of answers to that one question. Some answers good , some not so good, but at least it was not from that lone person (saint) on a random day who happens not to be driven nuts by the 'how many' question of the day. Reading is research. Asking (posting) is asking. Most often a question that has been asked and answered....too death.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I agree Rich.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I don't think I was on the board even a month before I started asking all those typical annoying "newbie" questions.

But I was on a discus discussion board similar to this for several years so I was pretty familar with how things worked.


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

The first post I made on Dendroboard was (i believe) on the first day I registered. However, I had been doing PDF research for well over a year. Most of the typical "newbie" questions are not answered on caresheet websites, and are asked before you have the common sense to do a search before posting. You really cant get angry with the newbies, however annoying they may be. Ignorance, after all, is bliss. :lol:


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## Elphaba (Aug 26, 2007)

I found this forum and posted my questions almost immediately. 

It's hard to conduct research when you don't know how to manipulate the source of information. I didn't know what the search function did -- before now, I had little experience with forums and all their lovely little intricacies of stickies, hot topics, and so on. I just noted that it didn't seem to be a 'dead' forum, that people were posting very regularly, and I thought: why not? That posting led me to discover there were actually froggers in my area. From there on my knowledge expanded: I now know both about dart frogs and how to use the forum, and I learn more every day.

All the best,
Ash


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Asking questions is not real research if you ask me.


I agree with you, Rich. This is a high-volume, active board- lots of topics are discussed, some fleetingly and some ongoing (like the clay-based substrate thread which, I admit, I find bloody fascinating!). The ready access to information thanks to the internet has bred a certain laziness and apathy with regards to what constitutes good research. Ask my wife what her students do to research and invariably it's 'they Google it'. Competency in research and evaluating sources are waning and the internet tends to recycle and recirculate the same 'half-truths' and 'misconceptions' (insert your subject here) because they were repeated ad nauseum until they became status quo.

If you are a member of a particular forum for long enough (and my membership on DB only goes back a few months), the rules of discourse and etiquette become apparent and maybe we get a little cranky when those conventions are breached


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## Minois (Dec 28, 2007)

Wow... You guys are really knowledgeable, but I am more of an action first kind of person. I signed up the second I got this site from Matt and started posting.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^ and how much reading did you do before posting? Before you got your frogs?

Rich


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> ^ and how much reading did you do before posting? Before you got your frogs


Rich, is the subject of this thread more directed to the time between joining and the first post asking a question OR the time to the first post when you are answering questions (giving advice based on experience and reading)?

Both are important questions but it would be good for people to address that in their responses to this thread.

some of the best ways to get information (especially before the advent of internet technology) is to ask. Also the search function for the boards is not exceptionally powerful (borderline useless) so the wealth of information in old posts is hard to get at.

I find it annoying when I cannot simply answer a question that I know has been addressed in the past because I can't find the thread.

The "sticky" on the top of each forum category is a very helpful start.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Matt Mirabello said:


> [quote="Rich Frye":1y50q6f2]^ and how much reading did you do before posting? Before you got your frogs


Rich, is the subject of this thread more directed to the time between joining and the first post asking a question OR the time to the first post when you are answering questions (giving advice based on experience and reading)?

Both are important questions but it would be good for people to address that in their responses to this thread.

some of the best ways to get information (especially before the advent of internet technology) is to ask. Also the search function for the boards is not exceptionally powerful (borderline useless) so the wealth of information in old posts is hard to get at.

I find it annoying when I cannot simply answer a question that I know has been addressed in the past because I can't find the thread.

The "sticky" on the top of each forum category is a very helpful start.[/quote:1y50q6f2]

Matt,
The question is neither really. I just wondered how much real time reading people do before asking questions, and possibly answering questions, but mainly asking. Joining time makes no difference to me.
The VAST majority of questions asked by those who just started 'digging' (posting questions) can be answered on the first or second page of the 'beginner' area. 


Rich


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## glitch (Feb 25, 2007)

attitudes like Rich's make me regret ever posting anything at all.

really.

when i registered to post here, it was because I thought this place was full of knowledgeable, friendly people who looked forward to sharing their experiences.

i guess i know better now.


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

My first post was approximately 3 months after I signed up and about a month (?) after I got my first frogs, but I researched for quite a while before hand; not so much on DB, but in books and talking to other froggers in my area. I did also read a lot on other sites...


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

glitch said:


> when i registered to post here, it was because I thought this place was full of knowledgeable, friendly people who looked forward to sharing their experiences.


And it is, but the friendly, knowledgeable people can just get tired of seeing the same questions asked over and over, sometimes even when there are already three threads about the same thing posted right there in the open. Luckily, some people actually look through the threads before posting, but some are just bent on getting THEIR questions answered, and ignore everything else. These are the people that make the friendly, knowledgeable people on DB not so friendly sometimes.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I'd have to go back to the old Kingsnake archives, but I want to say 3-6 months of serious research prior to purchasing. I had been keeping herps for a year prior to that so I knew what to look for and what questions to ask. I did ask the obligatory "I'm just getting into the hobby, do I have this all right?" before I purchased any frogs. 



> Luckily, some people actually look through the threads before posting, but some are just bent on getting THEIR questions answered, and ignore everything else. These are the people that make the friendly, knowledgeable people on DB not so friendly sometimes.


That is so true it's not even funny.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Personally I read for about a year before getting my first frogs.

Rich I think it is worth noting that many people learn/research differently and at different levels. Now I agree we make many attempts to put basic information out there as much as possible. The main reason for the beginners section is to allow questions and to foster a open community. Repeated questions happen and at times even spark new ideas and discussions. With that said we do attempt to keep a lot of the repeated questions to this section.

We have had some debates around this section and how to handle it and the fact is at a site level we get more compliments on this section than any other. We allow people to ask about anything and normally they receive a courteous quick response. The only thing we ask is, that if someone is beyond the beginner section and repeated questions bother them, then avoid it all together. It is very easy for anyone, and myself included, to become annoyed with some of the common questions. Interesting enough many of these questions lately are answered with links to information already here, which normally is a quick way to point someone in the right direction.

Maybe we need a article on how to research... 
I did create this sometime ago:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24967


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

kyle1745 said:


> Maybe we need a article on how to research...
> I did create this sometime ago:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24967


Kyle , nice article. Can we also post that in the beginner area?

Rich


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Sure I can add it to the "Good Threads to read for beginners" sticky.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Just checked and it is there already. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16075


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

The beauty of DB is that you don't have to guess how long you were a member before you posted, the exact data are at your fingertips. I see that I was the 118th member to join DB which was on May 20, 2004. And my first post was on Aug 10, 2004. But that doesn't really say anything because I joined frognet in 1996 and posted my introduction that same day.

But it is interesting. In the concurrent thread on history of the hobby and frognet, I've mentioned several times that repeatedly asking the same beginner question has provided the catalyst for many ideas that are now considered "advanced topics". So I have no problem if people ask the same questions over and over again. What is important is that we always have people available at a stage of experience who are willing to answer those questions competently. Sometimes that answer is simply, "check out this thread".


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## thentchel (Sep 3, 2007)

I have been reading since June 07 but I think this is my first post. I wrote a ridiculous long construction journal that got rejected b/c I did not have 5 posts :evil: 

Almost made me leave....


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## killgorian (Jan 1, 2008)

Well, what a good place to make my first post. :wink: And I joined a couple of days ago and know absolutely nothing about pdf's. In fact, I only became interested after receiving a gift certificate to Black Jungle for Christmas.

As for research, I understand completely what Rich is saying, and I dont think he means it to sound harsh. Im also a long standing member of a cell phone hacking forum for work and I read the posts there for about a year before posting. I wanted to know everything possible before I asked anything so as not to bother members with questions answered a thousand times before.

However the truth is, when it comes to this, I honestly dont have time to research everything out as thoroughly as I'd like before asking some questions. With my work schedule, I only have a couple of free hours a night and am still undecided as to if this is right for me or not.


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## Nelson42 (Nov 14, 2007)

i researched for about 2 months and then found this forum a month later. Things became very clear after I started reading most newbie topics and advanced. Then I got my luecs 2 weeks later, but started building my viv the second month.


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

I started doing research awhile before I even found this sight.. and by then I had come up with quite a few questions.. Alot of the repetetive "begginer questions" are spurred in inconsistent answers. One page says one thing while a different page another. Take the tank size isuue, Some places said 10 gallons was fin others that a 20 gallon was the minimum. So I asked, gave specifics and got a much more definate answer. Not to mention the search feature is a pain in the rear. For more definate dates.. I started researching back in august, posted here in october I think, and just got my frogs the week before christmas.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I'm all for people (e.g. newcomers) asking questions--I spent around two years researching off and on before I bought my first frogs, but I asked questions throughout that time (first on Frognet, then on Dendroboard as well when it was founded). But for me, the questions were based on what I had been reading and were a way to have help in processing the information I was gathering from archives, personal websites, etc. (there weren't any local hobbyists and I didn't know anyone well enough on the listerve to personally ask).

What I see becoming a trend is a consumeristic mindset in BB behavior where there doesn't seem to be much research or forethought involved in a person's question. If a goal is to actually grow this hobby and help newcomers become mature and learned hobbiests, I'm not so sure catering to every whim of a question is the best way to go about it. I'm sure Brent will have some critiquing to do of this example, but it's a bit like being an animal in Yellowstone: if all you have to do is stand next to the road to get a handout...why root around in the forest for hours just to get a few measly berries?

In response to this, I think it's all that more important to maintain a _culture_ of mentorship, not just on a one-to-one basis, but a collective basis as well. Learned and experienced hobbyists need to be willing to be involved...but newcomers also need to be willing to go through the process of learning, and sometimes that includes what seems to be immediately unfruitful searching rather than just walking over to the line of cars on the road.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Something I see come up again and again is that 'forums are supposed to be fun'. Sometimes tied in with an excuse as to why that poster is going against the generally accepted husbandry or the such. Typed in all lower case. 
Maybe we should start a 'Just For Fun' area for those looking for fun. :wink: 
And yes, I agree with Sly that forums and the hobby should have a tad of reciprocity between the 'newbies' and 'old timers'. 

Rich


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

I've seen a lot of people 'complain' about the search feature recently so it seems. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've found the the search function to work really well. You just need to know how to manipulate it properly and tell it what to look for. Although I will admit that it took some getting used to, I have no complaints about it. 

Now to answer the question, I was one of the ones who joined right up and made a post the first day.  I had cared for a friend's frogs on several occasions in the past and had done a bit of research, but it's always nice to get other's inputs on something.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> I'm sure Brent will have some critiquing to do of this example, but it's a bit like being an animal in Yellowstone: if all you have to do is stand next to the road to get a handout...why root around in the forest for hours just to get a few measly berries?


Ha! Just this week a coyote was shot in Yellowstone to be tested for rabies after it bit a couple of people... no doubt while accepting handouts from the roadside. Take whatever lesson you want from this.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I'm all for people (e.g. newcomers) asking questions--I spent around two years researching off and on before I bought my first frogs, but I asked questions throughout that time (first on Frognet, then on Dendroboard as well when it was founded). But for me, the questions were based on what I had been reading and were a way to have help in processing the information I was gathering from archives, personal websites, etc. (there weren't any local hobbyists and I didn't know anyone well enough on the listerve to personally ask).


I couldn't agree more! When answers are posed in supplement/complement to research that has already been undertaken, it certainly helps with comprehension and understanding. And in the absence of direct conversation with a local hobbyist (I was in a similar situation- of course NOW I know there are more local hobbyists than I first thought), listservs and open forums can provide a wealth of information provided that 'newbies' aren't seeing it as a 'get in, get out' kind of situation.



> What I see becoming a trend is a consumeristic mindset in BB behavior where there doesn't seem to be much research or forethought involved in a person's question. If a goal is to actually grow this hobby and help newcomers become mature and learned hobbiests, I'm not so sure catering to every whim of a question is the best way to go about it.


The curse of the open forum. So true it's almost disheartening. The pervasive attitude of 'if it's not online, it's not worth exploring', or even worse, 'if it's online, then it MUST be true'. Seems that the most basic skills of evaluating sources for validity and credibility are slipping away.


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## frogsoftheworld (Oct 20, 2007)

a little over a year.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Being a bit ADHD I can fully understand the 'I want it all and I want it now' feelings. The problem is when I get those feeling and follow through on them it never turns out as well as if I had just taken a deep breath and thought about whether my initial impulse is good or not. Taking time to think things through. It always worries me when I see someone new to the hobby post ten questions (lots of us know what those ten questions are) within the first 48 hours of joining. By the ten questions it is fairly easy to see that this is the poster's first attempt at gaining information about darts. Darts that may in fact already be in their possession (what do i feed my darts ? ...lower case, lower case). Take a look at the number of members here. Take a guess at how many had darts at one time. Now try to guess how many members who had darts still own them. Remember that this board has only been around for less than five years. Now, as good as this board is, and as much great info can be found ,and as many brilliant people answer questions here, being that there is a very, very, small percentage of actual scientific information that can be posted I would say there are a few posts floating around with some bad info attached. Maybe more than a few. Had I (ADHD and all) come into this hobby by chance of finding something cool about darts on the web or watched a simple documentary on the boob tube I would need more info than the 'standard' tv show or simple personal website. I come to Dendroboard. I have the choice of doing some digging and read through topics that seem pertinent and come up again and again OR I simply ask those top ten most frequently asked questions (I have found it very close to impossible to find an informative forum without an FAQ area) and hope that whomever is answering that day is putting out good info. I then get my frogs. I find that most of the info was good , but I need more help and get a little frustrated because I was not expecting my new frogs to be any 'hassle'. I post some more. I get some more answers. In a few months I need to post "what is wrong with my frogs? PLEASE HELP!!!" I had NO idea they needed supplements! I knew they needed FFs to live but nobody TOLD me that they needed vitamins. These little issues seem to pop up for me personally (ADHD you know) and I come to the point where , after saving one of my frogs, I decide it is time to get out of the hobby. Eight months have been enough for me and these finicky little expensive creatures. 
Unfortunately with the world of CNN, FOX , and MSNBC as our country's main sources of news we should be able to understand that we can not believe everything we see on TV and we certainly can not believe everything we read in a single post or answer. To retain people in this 'hobby' we need to pass along the true information that these are not goldfish to be flushed. They have the potential to live very long lives and the owners have the potential to be very good froggers. I just want every frog and everybody to live up to their potential.


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## FrogOly (Oct 5, 2007)

I had been lurking here for a couple of months, signed up and didn't post a question for some time. I was amazed at the number of newbies that had been asking the easiest questions to find answers to, soon parroting the responses given to them to others, not always in the proper context. I saw the responses from others sick of answering the same questions over and over. 

I was given four luec eggs, and only had frogs for a couple of months. The eggs hatched really quickly, and I was unsure what to do. I ran a search, which yielded dozens of pages of threads. In a panic after reading through half a dozen pages of threads, none of which gave the answer I was looking for, I posted. I was quickly given an answer. One of the four I was SURE was dead, and then was sure I would it never make it. It was the smallest and weakest out of the bunch. Probably about 4 times I just about flushed the little fellow :shock: I believe it will be the first one out of the water  The second front leg popped out overnight. That little frog will probably mean more to me than any other frog I will ever own! I learned about patience, and not to prejudge.

The importance of DB, and the organizations that brought forth the information out of the early 90's so that even a casual enthusiast actually has a chance to keep these delicate lifeforms alive can not be underestimated. Lots of people come and go quickly from this hobby, but the information to be successful is at least readily available to those that seek the knowledge. People should seek the answers, not just always ask for them, but someday a lot of these frogs may only exist in collections, so we should do our best to make sure there are lots of collections.


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## brettlt (Oct 5, 2006)

I started reading on Dendroboard about September 2006. I was actually researching building techniques for vivariums, and I planned to purchase firebelly toads. I joined on Oct 5th 2006, and made my first post on Oct 10th. I started building my first vivarium in Oct 2006. I finished it at the end of Nov 2006. It was about post number 55 in Jan 2007 that I first talked about dart frogs. All of my first 54 posts were almost exclusively about viv construction.

I never purchased the fbts. I ended up getting 4 Leucs in March 2007.

I did make some modifications from the time I was planning fbts, to receiving the Leucs. Mostly changing it to less water area, and I had to move some broms that were getting too wet.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Does checking out books at the public library, and building vivs in my preteen years count?

I probably posted a Q or A the day I joined...you don't need to join to read...so being the procrastinator that I am, didn't join till absolutely necessary.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Dancing frogs said:


> Does checking out books at the public library, and building vivs in my preteen years count?
> 
> I probably posted a Q or A the day I joined...you don't need to join to read...so being the procrastinator that I am, didn't join till absolutely necessary.


Yes checking out books count. As long as you read them :wink: .
You don't need to join to read. That is part of my point.


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

*Had to post in this thread....*

I felt compelled to post here for a couple of reasons because while researching on this site and Dart den I never ever saw a direct answer to any of the questions I had so I had to post and ask. 

Problem with many of the posts on message boards is that a question thread gets hijacked and becomes something other then what it was when it was started. A lot of chat goes on these threads making it hard to weed out your answers. For example one time a while back I asked about false bottoms. I was told that a false bottom was something like LECA(to allow drainage) or Gravel. Or it could be PVC and egg crate. but in the end the reality is that the PVC and egg crate is a False bottom and LECA or gravel is a necessity for drainage. 

It wasn’t until last night and then again today when I sent an actual e-mail to someone that I got a definitive answer with pictures to boot! and finally I can start my construction. My point being direct questions really should receive direct answers not a lot of opinions rolled into a long thread that a true newbie cannot dissect.

Another thing is that Americans are addicted to instant gratification, that’s why Wal-mart and Kmart was created actually to ensure we could get our wants and needs fulfilled cheaply even though we sacrifice quality as the result. So instead of reading on and on trying to find an answer to a question we ask right away and satisfy our curiosity and move on to the next question.

Moreover, many of us do not know how to do proper research particularly the Generation Y.....(not their fault, it's the way school is structured nowadays). Being 37 years old and actually attending a university fulltime I see the research struggle all day long with kids getting stressed out trying to figure out how to do it. This of course is not all the younger generation but many of them. So why would these individuals actually try to research a hobby if they struggle to research in school? Hell I wouldn’t!

Another thing I would like to mention here is that this particular area and the Q and A area are supposed to be utilized for questions.....now according to many of you here this forum has hardly any questions that haven't already be answered in some thread....so based on the research first...read all the posts etc, Why even have a beginner or Q & A section at all?

Now about the "lowercase letter" thing does it really matter? I mean these boards are not designed to be grammatically correct, those in college have to watch there grammar when they right papers in school, those of us who work in some fields write point papers and proposals all day long why the heck would we want to have to watch our grammar in a leisurely message board? I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything and if anyone has taken me personally I apologize.

Now if it is ok and since it really does apply to this thread I would like to throw out some constructive criticism to the type A's out there. Many of you have a great deal of knowledge I read it in your posts, but can you please put that knowledge out there in a more assertive way? I mean truly some of you scare the hell out of the newbie’s out there, we want to promote this hobby not trash it don't we? Those of us who are new really want to learn from you, but in some cases it seems like we are being blasted every time we ask a repeat question, yes it is annoying I know, but that is not the newbie’s intention, we just want to learn.

Sorry if anyone feels like I hijacked this thread but I do believe that all I said applies here.

Have a great day

Mitch


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Malaki33 said:


> Problem with many of the posts on message boards is that a question thread gets hijacked and becomes something other then what it was when it was started. A lot of chat goes on these threads making it hard to weed out your answers. For example one time a while back I asked about false bottoms. I was told that a false bottom was something like LECA(to allow drainage) or Gravel. Or it could be PVC and egg crate. but in the end the reality is that the PVC and egg crate is a False bottom and LECA or gravel is a necessity for drainage.


So the search for 'false bottoms' gave you no information you could use or explained the use for them? See my current thread under 'construction' , "What's all the Fuss About False Bottoms" .There is some info for you there.




Malaki33 said:


> My point being direct questions really should receive direct answers not a lot of opinions rolled into a long thread that a true newbie cannot dissect.


I agree very much with this and usually try to be very direct as anyone who knows me will attest :wink: .





Malaki33 said:


> Another thing is that Americans are addicted to instant gratification, that’s why Wal-mart and Kmart was created actually to ensure we could get our wants and needs fulfilled cheaply even though we sacrifice quality as the result. So instead of reading on and on trying to find an answer to a question we ask right away and satisfy our curiosity and move on to the next question.


DING DING DING DING, bells, whistles, alarms. You make my point exactly. Spot on. That addiction is not a healthy thing.
I would only change Americans to 'most Americans'. 




Malaki33 said:


> Another thing I would like to mention here is that this particular area and the Q and A area are supposed to be utilized for questions.....now according to many of you here this forum has hardly any questions that haven't already be answered in some thread....so based on the research first...read all the posts etc, Why even have a beginner or Q & A section at all?


So people can read the questions that have already been answered or IF they have something new to contribute. That may be a basic answer and there are of course exceptions to that answer, but reading, it's there for reading.



Malaki33 said:


> Now about the "lowercase letter" thing does it really matter?


Not really. But it seems that it is often used by that new frogger asking all the 'top ten' questions set on mixing auratus with leucs........the one who kept his frog for five months....... 



Malaki33 said:


> Many of you have a great deal of knowledge I read it in your posts, but can you please put that knowledge out there in a more assertive way?


You really think I (assuming you are directing this at me at all) need to be MORE assertive :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: ????



Malaki33 said:


> I mean truly some of you scare the hell out of the newbie’s out there, we want to promote this hobby not trash it don't we? Those of us who are new really want to learn from you, but in some cases it seems like we are being blasted every time we ask a repeat question, yes it is annoying I know, but that is not the newbie’s intention, we just want to learn.


We want to promote this hobby for those who are willing to see it through. Along for the whole ride. Is it really so hard to understand that it is a disservice to the hobby and the FROGS that we love to not do true research. Annoying me should be someone's least concern. I have skin much thicker that a bowl of puddin'. I can take it. It is for the hobby and the frogs I do this.

Rich


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

*For Rich*

Hey Rich,

I got to say your answers are more agressive the assertive(but wasn't adressing only you). Assertive is firm but non threatining (see the post, at least I think it was yours, to the guy or gal who couldn't identify the frog) man oh man that guy/gal is probably hiding somewhere, that was agressive not assertive. 

As far as your post on False bottoms, I read so many I can't remember them all. I was just confused about needing one or not needing one. On the bag of LECA I got from Petco it showed a (how to make a water feature) and there was no false bottom used so I wanted to know if it was needed or if it was just a persons preferance. When i sent out the e-mail I got a difinitive answer with some really great pics and realized that yea, egg crate and PVC should be used to make the water feature.

The e-mail I sent out Was very long and had 10 questions, well maybe not actually questions but confirmations for my plan. (not the top ten newbie ones I dont think) that received very specific answers would love to send it to you to get your opinion on it too.

anyway thanks

Mitch


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

thetattooedone said:


> I personally exhaust every other avenue of imformation gathering before posting questions.


I am exactly the same way, which is why I rarely post "questions" rather than responses and comments. When I do post questions it's because I have looked everywhere for the info I want that I can think but haven't found the answer I was looking for. Either that or I have no idea where to start looking and want to see if anyone else does. 
I'll break the norm and say that I didn't watch and learn for a year before posting... only a few months.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Malaki33 said:


> Hey Rich,
> 
> I got to say your answers are more agressive the assertive(but wasn't adressing only you). Assertive is firm but non threatining (see the post, at least I think it was yours, to the guy or gal who couldn't identify the frog) man oh man that guy/gal is probably hiding somewhere, that was agressive not assertive.


Hi Mitch, actually aggressive/assertive have synonymous defs. "confidently aggessive or self-assured" .I looked it up. I read it. :wink: 
And no, it was not me who IDed a frog. I hope the guy/gal comes out of hiding at some point  



Malaki33 said:


> As far as your post on False bottoms, I read so many I can't remember them all. I was just confused about needing one or not needing one. On the bag of LECA I got from Petco it showed a (how to make a water feature) and there was no false bottom used so I wanted to know if it was needed or if it was just a persons preferance. When i sent out the e-mail I got a difinitive answer with some really great pics and realized that yea, egg crate and PVC should be used to make the water feature.
> The e-mail I sent out Was very long and had 10 questions, well maybe not actually questions but confirmations for my plan. (not the top ten newbie ones I dont think) that received very specific answers would love to send it to you to get your opinion on it too.
> 
> anyway thanks
> ...


Jump into that 'Falsie' thread I started. You don't need LECA or a False Bottom for any water feature I can think of.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> You don't need to join to read. That is part of my point.


That changes my answer a bit. My join date is like May or something but I read for several months before I joined (here, dartden, random websites, etc).



Rich Frye said:


> You don't need LECA or a False Bottom for any water feature I can think of.


Yes you do... only someone who doesn't research would think you don't, so obviously you haven't made very many water features, or at least not that many elaborate ones.... j/k!! :lol:


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

One week, maybe two (preliminary research on darts). About 3ish days between joining and posting (on this board)...


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Newbies,

What all the experienced froggers are saying is that don't waste their time by posting questions. And when you do post make sure that you inform the board that you have exhusted all other resources. Most of these experience froggers are quick to comment but won't answer questions directly. As I have expeirence this is a very close circle board. The experience froggers will tear you up.
To sum up before you get your frogs people, make sure if have spent at least a year reading about dart frogs before you post on this site. Otherwise your are not going to be treated well by your fellow board members.
Buy they way I posted the day I joined, if I remember correctly.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I will ignore the obviously baited comment above and encourage others to do the same....


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Perhaps the sticky for beginners should beging with the following:

"If this is your first introduction to keeping pdf, then turn off your computer and go to your bookstore to pick up a copy of Greg and Amanda Sihlers book on Poison Frogs. Inside the cover you will see they have more than enough credentials to be considered a reliable source and for $10 you can have a permanent record of all the basics you need for success."

The fact of the matter is that the Internet is a great source of information. But it is best for sharing opinions and discussing ideas. But the quality of information is notoriously unreliable so buyer beware.


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## MattySF (May 25, 2005)

A few months before getting on here I started going through my old Reptiles mags and Amphiban care books. I then searched through info on care for darts and viv construction at breeders website before I decided to see what a forum was. 

I joined in May 2005 and posted the first time in june 2005 looking for a source for mosquitio screen.

First dart frog is still alive and popping out eggs and the love of the hobby is still growing.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> The fact of the matter is that the Internet is a great source of information. But it is best for sharing opinions and discussing ideas. But the quality of information is notoriously unreliable so buyer beware.


That gets right down to the heart of the matter, Brent. Well said.


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## Amphiman (Nov 8, 2007)

As far as i can remember i've always been fascinated with amphibians...I've researched their care....but find myself posting questions that are not answered on care sheets and in books, such as how many Dart frogs are compatible in a 10 gallon and plant questions.....i had no clue about any kind of tropical plants before i came to this site...I've cared for many not dendro-ish 'phibs before such as salamanders and tree frogs and terrestrial frogs... but never darts and until recently never knew of the search or how it worked ....so please excuse my annoying questions...but you can't get annoyed with them or at least should not...you frog experts are here to help us and help further the hobby not scold us for our stupidity  lol...just my little thoughts


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: Had to post in this thread....*



Malaki33 said:


> Moreover, many of us do not know how to do proper research particularly the Generation Y.....(not their fault, it's the way school is structured nowadays). Being 37 years old and actually attending a university fulltime I see the research struggle all day long with kids getting stressed out trying to figure out how to do it. This of course is not all the younger generation but many of them. So why would these individuals actually try to research a hobby if they struggle to research in school? Hell I wouldn’t!


On the contrary, we tend to be more computer-savvy than the older generations, and actually know what a "search" feature is without someone explaining it to us =P

I honestly dont have a problem researching at all (1992, here). I just think the school system is giving us lame things to research about, and students arent getting into anything enough to actually DO anything. But I think if you give us a hobby that we really enjoy, research will come naturally. The people that ask "The 10 Questions" (I guess that's what we're referring to them as, now) I think are just people who want PDFs because "they're blue" or something.

vvv Narcissism Haters Beware vvv

Then again, if I do say so myself, I tend to have more common sense than most of my peers (or I like to think I do, at least), so I really shouldnt be speaking for them.

^^^ Narcissism Haters Beware ^^^

And when did Dendroboard turn into a political board? 
:wink:


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

*Re: Had to post in this thread....*



Conman3880 said:


> And when did Dendroboard turn into a political board?
> :wink:


Around 2004ish... :lol: :wink:


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## Amphiman (Nov 8, 2007)

I ask stupid questions and i don't want dart frogs "cause they're blue" i enjoy watching their activities when i can (i have an auratus) and watching them grow. So that remark is not all entirely true conman....i just don't want to get anything wrong.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Amphiman said:


> ...but find myself posting questions that are not answered on care sheets and in books, such as how many Dart frogs are compatible in a 10 gallon


Simply...WHAT?? :shock: :shock: 




Amphiman said:


> never knew of the search or how it worked ....so please excuse my annoying questions...but you can't get annoyed with them or at least should not...you frog experts are here to help us and help further the hobby not scold us for our stupidity  lol...just my little thoughts


So now you do know of the search function and how to use it.
And again, thick, thick skin, but where exactly is it said or writen that any experts are here for you? Some are, but don't look at it like an entitlement. Most 'experts' are here for the frogs's sake, not your's. :wink: The word stupidity has never entered this thread until you brought it.


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## Amphiman (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm not saying they are here for my sake....I'm just saying that while they are here they should simply help out....i mean even the great experts asked someone something.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Amphiman said:


> I'm not saying they are here for my sake....I'm just saying that while they are here they should simply help out....i mean even the great experts asked someone something.


The reason I started this thread was to help people exactly like you Tom. Not saying I am an expert, but read through the whole thread. True experts have posted some good advise.


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## Amphiman (Nov 8, 2007)

Hmmm.. I'm trying to say...although experts should not feel entitled to answer questions...they could...not saying that they haven't. And as for the 10 gallon issue....i knew how many of other amphibians were compatible in it...i just was worried about putting darts in it..like i said...i don't want to mess anything up.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Amphiman said:


> .....i don't want to mess anything up.


OK Tom, hopefully this thread will help you with that goal. Good luck.

Rich


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I signed up a lurked for over a year before I got up the courage to try frogs. I don't even currently have any darts.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Amphiman said:


> ....but find myself posting questions that are not answered on care sheets and in books, such as how many Dart frogs are compatible in a 10 gallon and plant questions.....


Rich's amazement aside, this is a perfectly legitimate question and I defy anyone to show me where THE answer is posted. Sure, you can find plenty of discussion and opinions. And those opinions have changed a great deal over the years and continue to evolve. The answer to that question a decade ago would have likely been "Oh 3 or 4 maybe". Today you will get many responses suggesting that 10 gal. is not large enough for a single pair.

Once again, please, Please, PLEASE, don't discourage people from re-asking questions. Thank goodness Alfred Wallace was not satisfied with THE answer that species were distributed around the world because of special creation... which was the accepted dogma prior to his time. I'm Sooo glad that he wasn't just told, "that question has been answered, please don't ask it again." (for those who don't know Wallace, his was some of the seminal work that led to the theory of evolution).


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

bbrock said:


> Amphiman said:
> 
> 
> > ....but find myself posting questions that are not answered on care sheets and in books, such as how many Dart frogs are compatible in a 10 gallon and plant questions.....
> ...


I personally would never do that. As long as the person in need had done the research the average ten year old child could (and sometimes does) have before, before posting I am more than willing to try to help out with an answer. 
I think you are bright enough Brent to realize that nobody here is saying 'don't ask'.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Brent and other,
What some don't realize and what you eluded to is that there is not an answer for every question. How many to put in a 10 gallon? I know there is not AN answer for this question, but there are SOME answers. Not all questions have answers, most just have very experience tempered advice. Those looking for THE answer will often come up disappointed.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^ and those who realize that there is not one answer should do research and not take that 1001st '5 gal per frog' 'rule' but take advantage of ALL of the posts and poster's answers.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Bocomo said:


> Newbies,
> 
> What all the experienced froggers are saying is that don't waste their time by posting questions. And when you do post make sure that you inform the board that you have exhusted all other resources. Most of these experience froggers are quick to comment but won't answer questions directly. As I have expeirence this is a very close circle board. The experience froggers will tear you up.
> To sum up before you get your frogs people, make sure if have spent at least a year reading about dart frogs before you post on this site. Otherwise your are not going to be treated well by your fellow board members.
> Buy they way I posted the day I joined, if I remember correctly.


Bocomo,
Your interpretation and acceptance of the answers you received are the problem not how you were responded to. If you would like to continue debating this topic feel free to PM me.



The truth is everyone is welcome and yes people get annoyed with repeated questions, but as Brent said they can spark great new conversations. I do ask that if you can not respond politely to a common question or new comer then please do not respond at all. We go out of our way to push as much of the standard information, and have to have it at your fingertips. From Care Sheet, and articles to stickies in almost every section with great past topics. For example:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16075
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24449

If anyone has ideas on how to improve how we handle new comers please let me know. With that said I have no intention to stop common or repeated questions, in my opinion that form of moderation is considered rather harsh and many times stops progressive ideas and thinking. I visit a number of forums that use this method and at times it is a week of e-mails and explanations to get a new thread started. This does not foster a open community.

The overall problem being discussed here is not something we are going to solve. It can be related to how the younger generations of this country are now predicted to be the first ever to not do better than their parents. Lack of respect, and willingness to work for something play a big part in it and it shows more and more here over the years. We will never stop the spontaneous purchaser, but what we can do is help point them in the right direction when they are in need. The most important thing about making a mistake is learning from it.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Well I stopped reading this thread at page 3 so If something has changed excuse the post :lol: 

It amazes me the ammount of repeated questions of forums in general Frog, Fish, Probably every type of forum.

I first was introduced to PDFs (really mantellas) from a tv show and thought they where the coolest things.

Next encounter was many many years back at the Boston Museum of Science in probably 2000 or so.

Since then I've been researching these frogs. I ended up getting a White's in 2002(-2006) Because I was just too young for them in my opinion. I read the whole Black jungle website before they opened their "new" store :roll: 

It wasn't untill last year I joined because of the age restriction that was in place before that you had to be 18+, I'm currently 16.

Still don't have any frogs, but plan on at least setting up a viv this year.

So in my opinion, people rush a whole heck of a lot!

-Andrew


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## killgorian (Jan 1, 2008)

Well Im as new at this as it gets. I didnt even know one could own pdf's until about two weeks ago and I only joined this board this week.

Yet, the truth is, Ive found very informative information as to the nature of the frogs, their needs, the most informative caresheets on every kind of frog you can imagine, step by step instructions on setting up viv's, cultures, etc right here by simply using the search feature for only a couple of hours a night.

Thus, I think these boards have been very helpful and even encouraging in helping me to decide if Im the right person to try raising these little guys. 





p.s. Two frogs tops in a 10 gallon depending on species and your prolly better off with only one per 10 gallon. :wink:


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

kyle1745 said:


> If anyone has ideas on how to improve how we handle new comers please let me know.


Kyle, 
How would this work? A new member has a 30 day (30 not set in stone) period after joining that he/she is not able to post. A great time to look around , get used to the search function, and read. I can't see there being any emergencies that one would need to post but if so I am sure there could be a 'PM the Mods' function :wink: .


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Remember we are trying to promote a open community that caters to both the experienced and the inexperienced. A 30day restriction from posting would not foster an "open community". If the repeated threads bother you or anyone else I would suggest avoiding this section. At times I avoid this section myself to get a break, but normally people are rather helpful and respond quickly. 

How does the saying go... "You can lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink..." We attempt to provide as much upfront data as possible and the fact is some people learn by asking questions rather than researching.

As I said we should work to help people learn from their mistakes as in the end even a mistake can be turned into a good learning experience. Many times briefly explaining the search feature, or point them to old threads gets them started in researching the data that is already here.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^ Fair enough.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Any person new to the hobby requires, or is at least looking for, personal mentoring--quite aside from all of the rest of the available resources. A forum like this gives or should give, both. Those who are advanced and feel superior, and do not want to answer redundant beginner questions, or don't have the patience to do so, or have very short memories about being beginners themselves, don't even need to read the "newby" posts in the first place. Teachers teach-- they don't expect their students to have done a "search" ahead of time and already know the subject. There is never an excuse for being rude or putting a newcomer down. 

Personal answers are so much more friendly, even if they are controversial or even wrong. It gets the new person into thinking, evaluating the different answers, reacting, -not just going for the dogma of a care sheet or merely something to read. Sometimes, those of us who think we have a lot of experience or tend to think we know it all, can be surprised into thinking differently from "newby" questions. Then of course, we often argue with each other, without I hope totally losing the original poster. It's a Society of discussion and support--a bit of humor and fun. The "experts," if indeed there are any of us in that high caliber, should be here for new people just getting into the hobby, as well as for the "frogs."


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> I think you are bright enough Brent to realize that nobody here is saying 'don't ask'.


First, don't overestimate me. I wore my underwear backwards for a day last week - wife had to point that out. Second, I do realize you aren't saying 'don't ask'. But I worry about the tone. Are we not having the discussion about what happened to frognet right now? To this day I don't understand how frognet got the reputation of not being friendly to newcomers but can't deny that the reputation is there. And I don't think frognet has ever recovered. I can't help but think some new folks may read this and think "jeez, you have to be careful what you say around here." I'm just worried we may be sending that old frognet vibe again. And oldtimers are not very good topic starters so if all but the oldsters get intimidated, it is going to get very quiet.

Another kick to this dead horse that hasn't been mentioned. It's nice to think you have something valuable to contribute. When someone asks what kind of lights are recommended, that may be the time for someone who was asking that very question not long ago to give something back. So-called "experts" don't need to answer newby questions, the intermediate folks can have fun with it. And if someone sees advice they don't agree with, they can give a gentle nudge if they like. Everybody on this forum knows something that nobody else does. Oh, and the lighting question is another example of those questions that SHOULD be asked repeatedly because the answer continues to change with new technology.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I hope no one takes this conversation as "don't ask" it comes up from time to time and the discussions have started things like the: "Good Threads to read for beginners" Sticky.


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## FrogOly (Oct 5, 2007)

Rich,

Even when a newbie(like myself) does a search, many times there are hundreds, if not thousands, of threads to read through. Being inexperienced and not having gone through some of the husbandry issues, panic can set in quickly that you do not have the time to read the extensive amount of info, much of which doesn't even concern your problem, just one reply buried in a thread. Much of the common believe is that the dart frogs are difficult to keep alive, and you feel the need to take action that very minute, or you are going to lose an animal. Even when one devotes all their free time to studying darts, and feeders, and all the issues that go along with it, until you have experienced these dilemmas that pop up, you want to make darned sure you get it right the first time. 

Combine that with some info that goes out that is given in the wrong context. I have picked up from lots of reading on here and some posters advice is much more reliable than others. I do not think every newbie realizes that. The same questions ad nausium in the beginners forum is not nearly as troublesome, as the newbie who seeks validation for methods that are clearly wrong, and does not want to listen to the proper advice, and then actually get hostile because everyone is ganging up on them. It's the ones that ask questions, but really do not want the truth that are the real problem. Not someone looking for the truth, no matter how impatient they are to get it.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

^ great post

Ironically a search and a little time reading would have found a similar discussion a year ago as to where this one was clearly headed. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=search

To teh original question, I spent about 2 months reading (mainly Patrick's site) before I bought my first frogs. I didn't discover DB until i had already bought them, and while I had done enough research to avoid most of the panic posts, this site has been invaluable, and although I don't ask a ton of questions I weed through as many threads and answers as I can and find I learn something everyday. 

My frustration is limited to the questions that clearly show that frogs have been put in jeopardy. As for the run of the mill can I mix, how many frogs, etc... we all have to start somewhere, and not everybody is inclined to sit and read for three months before making their first timid post that begins with "I swear I did a search but...."


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Marty71 said:


> Ironically a search and a little time reading would have found a similar discussion a year ago as to where this one was clearly headed.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=search


 And even more ironic is that I read that thread last year :wink: No search needed.

I'll sum up my feelings for those who have not read through this six page dead horse.
1. I don't want to avoid the beginner section because I actually feel I should offer some advise at times and have no problem doing so. 
2. It is my advise to people new to the hobby to read stickies and posts that seem to have a recurring theme. If I were new to a hobby I would much rather get a multitude of answers to my questions than one. It is very simple to scroll down to the 'how many' thread and jump in if you feel the need to ask any questions not answered or if you do not understand something.
3. The real reason for me starting this thread is the amount of posts I see with new froggers asking questions after they have their frogs that should have been asked before they got their frogs. I get frustrated when I see frogs not given the best possible care. 
Quality , not quantity is what is needed in the hobby.
4. Please, please feel free to ask questions. Please, please read the above three points  .

With that I'm (most likely :wink: ) done.

Rich


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> With that I'm (most likely) done.


I'll believe when I see it


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

What? Don't believe me?


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

One of the most common things you are going to see at a pet store, a vet, or a board dedicated to a particular animal is newbies who just bought an animal (with little or no prior research), who ask very basic questions and are mostly ignorant of the animal they purchased. It is a fact of life.

All you can do is help those you want to learn and hope the animals either live a healthy extended life, or die a quick painless death...


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

*how long*

I can say I have been reasearching darts for about 6 months before building the first viv, then researched vivs for 3 months . So from start to fininsh about 9 months from inception to first dart in the house. 
Daryl


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## killgorian (Jan 1, 2008)

> 3. The real reason for me starting this thread is the amount of posts I see with new froggers asking questions after they have their frogs that should have been asked before they got their frogs. I get frustrated when I see frogs not given the best possible care.
> Quality , not quantity is what is needed in the hobby.


 Im actually amazed by this, although I guess I shouldnt be. And in my couple of days on the boards, I've actually seen the same thing. It seems to me that it is fairly obvious that this is not even close to a "jump into" hobby. After reading some of the stickeys Ive realized that it will be quite some time before I actually attempt to own frogs no matter how much I think I'd love to have some.

At the end of the day these are endangered species with their habitat quickly vanishing. From what Ive read it appears that you "hobbiests" are their best hope for their future. To simply jump into owning one without thorough research is paramount to a crime imho.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Very few hobbies in my opinion are "jump into" ones. I would argue any pet is not a "jump into" thing though we know the impulse buys will always happen.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> If anyone has ideas on how to improve how we handle new comers please let me know.


I think something that could help is requiring a new person to read the how to use the search feature sticky and acknowledge that they did by replying to that thread before they are allowed to post a new topic.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I think this still falls into the "You can lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink..." comment. Its like a software license agreement or the rules here. People just click past it. I will see what I can do to put the search feature write up in more places. With that said the search is improved in the new version so hopefully they will help a bit.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I agree, people will do what they want, but solving that isn't really what we're after. We're interested in how to improve the process of how new people are integrated into the general population of DB.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I think this may be a good time to bump this old post. 
I seems I read every day that some new (and at times 'old') frogger is having issues with their frogs. Issues that need not be. Invariably it would seem that quarantine, while plastered all over the net, has not been properly done. Obviously if proper quarantine was not done, neither was testing. 
What can we as a group of people who care about darts do to ensure that the FAQs, stickies, "Good Posts for Beginners" and the like are not only read , but comprehended as needed?
Day after day I read of people who were sold frogs they are not ready for, on many levels, and it disturbs me. 

Rich


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

When I got my first pair of frogs (leucomelas) I had never been to dendroboard. Or course, it didn't exist back then, either (2001). I did read a little on kingsnake forums and was a bit overwhelmed. So one day I was browsing at a reptile show and talking with a breeder (not actually leuc a breeder, she had bought a bunch of froglets) who assured me that all I needed was a tank filled with dirt and some plants. So thats where they lived. I have recently got back into the hobby (I sold my frogs when I moved across the country) and have spent a significant amount of time reading here before acquiring my new frogs, which I am getting tonight. I will say that it is much easier to get good info now that DB exists, it is such a great resource.


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

Well it goes for all animals really. I don't think you can eliminate the impulsive buyer.

Another issue may also be the gloryfying of "novice/starter frogs". People are quick to promote the purchase of a group of leucs for example before even knowing the housing situation or intent of the inquirer. While these frogs are the best to get ones feet wet, there should be more of a stress on taking care of any frog. I learned through reptiles and they still do not compare to the diligence needed to maintain healthy frogs.


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## Leap (Mar 19, 2008)

A week or a little more? Something like that. Probably would have been longer if the search was working better, but oh well.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I understand that the search feature is not the easiest thing to use at times (although it found me this dusty old post :wink: ) so other ways to get the info is the afore mentioned "stickies", "Good Posts for beginners" and "FAQs" that are easy to find. Another way would be to go to the beginner section and look at the titles of things that keep popping up, again and again.
I agree about the issues with labeling good beginner frogs. I can tell you this. I have found no one species any more or less difficult to keep alive. None more or less prone to death. None more or less robust. What I have found is that all have a little different personalities and such but all have very similar requirements for good health. Breeding is a whole different issue.

Rich


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

Well another thing about 'beginner frogs' is that they are usually labeled as capable of being in groups where more advanced frogs are thought to bully others for terretorial reasons. The truth is that every frog can be subjected to stress by another frog if their envrionment is not adequate. That is why you see so many threads asking "how many can fit in.... / what is the best species that could.....". 

The dart frog's gift is also their curse. They are gorgeous exotic eye-catching animals which attracts a number of people. It's going to seduce newcomers who want the instant gratification of having a display animal in a realistic viv. This will lead to the skipping of quarantine methods and cramming of colorful frogs in a limited space.

As for the solution. I am a member of other forums of different content. Maybe there should be some degree of strictness in allowing these threads. Have them locked immediately while directing them to a single thread that stresses these issues. In that way, you can also avoid any possible pushes from other members to pull the trigger on a large batch of froglets.


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## Greatwtehunter (Jan 8, 2008)

Wow I take a nap and miss all the fun. I stalked on here for at least a year before I posted. I was just as content searching for the answer, it's alot quicker than waiting on a response. Ok now I gotta go and catch up on this thread.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

bLue_reverie said:


> As for the solution. I am a member of other forums of different content. Maybe there should be some degree of strictness in allowing these threads. Have them locked immediately while directing them to a single thread that stresses these issues. In that way, you can also avoid any possible pushes from other members to pull the trigger on a large batch of froglets.


Kyle has already touched on the involvement of repeat threads. He thinks that over-involvement takes away from an "open community" of the forum.

Rich


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Hi just seen this, Well seen my first PDF at Baltimore July 05, got on Amazon bought and read all the books about PDF's current at that time. Joined here May 06 after IAD. Got my first darts Sept 06. And vended IAD 07. I read(plant books, building vivs,amphibian medicine, you name it I've read it or have it on the shelf waiting to be read) and continue to read all the time, hardly ever post unless its something like this. I have found most of my questions on the board and have never really asked any questions that couldn't be found on here. There is a wealth of knowledge if you take the time to find it. Thanks to everybody for making this a great site. 

Oh and I got a present in the mail today!! 5 baby Pats!! And a pair of Almirante!! Pics to follow soon.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hmm lets see I joined in 2004 and I first started reading about dendrobatids back around 1979 (I still have the book (Breen, J.F.; 1974; Encyclopeida of Reptiles and Amphibians; TFH Publications; Neptune) (the book was given to me in 1979) so that makes it about 25 years before I made my first post on here.... 

Ed


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## Greatwtehunter (Jan 8, 2008)

^ :shock:


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

I will absolutely admit that I thought, oh yeah, I'll set up a vivarium and have 4 or 5 frogs in it..all different colors yaddayadda. I went to many websites who sold frogs and read this label "can be successfully mixed with other species" and stopped in my tracks and thought "whoa, hold up...when they start saying CAN be kept with different species, there is more to look into. I have kept fresh and saltwater fish for many years and mixing some species just won't work. I quickly started hunting for forums. This was the second forum I came across. Both forums have provided me with much more information than a book and "buy our frogs" websites have. I feel confident that my first vivarium is set up properly and once I master the whole fruit fly culture thing (which for some reason I am nervous about) then I will be getting 2 (and only 2) azureus frogs. No mixing species for me. 

I am grateful for the people who manage and maintain these forums because without them, I would have been a frog murderer because of my own ignorance.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Mankes you wonder how often peopel do buy one of these, and one of those and a couple of these and throw them all in. I can't say I ever planned a mixed tank like that, but I had thought of it. I think I had figured out the average newcomer questions from reading long before I started posting. The key is your research.

I know we would all like to see people do more research in advance before they want to cram 15 frogs into a 10 gallon with three snakes and a parrot, but it isn't going to change much. For every person that joins here and wants to mix, there has to be a few others that will never join and just go at it on their own. It's an up hill battle. People have been into the tank hobby for years, decades, but I am sure there are still hundreds of thousnds of animals lost to that because people just want a cool looking tank NOW, not after they have researched the proper care and set-up. It's the American way, instant gradification, and I blame Fox and Rupert Murdoch for it all.


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## dreqqus (Apr 10, 2007)

I personally lurked the forums for 6-7 months before posting, and was about 6-7 months after that before I got any frogs. Its been about 7 months now with these frogs, and I just got finished building my second viv, a 10 gallon vert, for a thumbnail(probably imis but haven't decided it yet). I am now setting up a 30 gallon long, but this is going to be for my sister, who just wants a planted viv. I feel that I was well prepared and informed before I purchased my first frogs.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

I personally didn't do much research before I got my first frogs about 3-4 years ago. I saw the at a pet store where the owner of the store's son had bred them. I made a nice viv with water fall, orchid, moss, and some pothos. I put an azureus and a green and black auratus. The auratus escaped and became frog jerky. I dedicated myself to learning more about the critters after that.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Hmmm can't say I remember exactly but since I obtained my first dart frogs without doing any research I suspect I didn't do much research before posting on the old DB 8) 

For the record, those original dart frogs (green and black auratus) are alive and doing well 3.5 years later. No breeding but then again they are both males so no surprise.

Bill


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

I had been reading on pdf websites for about a month. A couple of days after finding this board I joined and two hours later made my first post. It was the day my frogs arrived and I was so excited I had to tell someone.

I think one of the factors in how long it takes to make your first post is your experience with forums in general. I've been participating in forums on many different topics for the last ten years or so.

I think another factor is your confidence in being able to put together a coherent sentence, sometimes spelling and grammer do count. Although some people don't seem to care and I think most people don't fault them for that, it's mostly their own insecurity that stops them from posting.

Another factor is.........."I need an answer (or moral support) and I need it NOW!"

And I guess another factor off the top of my head, would be your willingness to ignore nasty comments. I don't think it happens a lot on a forum like this, but there are lots a trolls on the internet. Also people have a tendency bully when they think they can do it from behind a computer screen. Kind of like how normal humans beings can become fanatics when behind the wheel of a car. Road rage and anonymous computer posts have a lot in common in some cases.

Oh well, enough rambling on my part.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

I can't recall exactly when I first came across dendroboard. I had a simple viv about 5 years ago, and I had done some research then, but had a change in life and got away from the hobby for a few years. I got back into it about 6 months ago, and again was combing the web looking for ideas/help. at some point I realized dendroboard was an excellent resource and that I wanted to get in contact with others, that is when I registered. I had probably been actively searching the forum for a few weeks before I decided to post. 

The search function can be cumbersome I agree, but even when I first started on here, I rarely used it. For me, I systematically when through each forum section and scanned any post that I thought might yield something useful. Yeah, that took a long ass time, but I also came across things that I might otherwise not have learned had I only stuck with questions I had. 

The 5 post restriction is a good thing, but easily bypassed. I like Defaced idea about the search function stickie. Yes there will be numerous people that come for quick answers and are not going to bother searching first. It happens everywhere. maybe there could also be a standard reply we as a group could have that would politely refer them to the stickies.


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

About one month. When I first found this board, I read back through well over 500 posts in several days. Having done that I can say that there are some redundant posts but different people respond to each. I assume everyone doesn't read every post, so you get different perspectives over time.

And yes, asking questions is a legitimate form of research.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

jdogfunk99 said:


> About one month.
> 
> And yes, asking questions is a legitimate form of research.



No. It is legitimate ONLY if the question has not been asked to death. If it has been asked to death ,and hundreds of times after that death, and the answer to that question is plastered all around, that question is simply for instant gratification. Not research. 

'I bumped this topic due to the (once again) huge number of posts I have been reading about practises that go 180 degrees from the direction posted in the very easy to find "stickies" , "good posts for beginners" , care sheets, and such. 
The simple fact is that too many will not research. Many frogs die. Many will continue to unless we can somehow express that these are not goldfish won at a county fair. To be flushes after interest wains or avoidable death occurs.
I also think we need to come up with a way that will convey the thought that real research is good. Holding one's hand all the way through a process (dart husbandry) that does not end for potentially many, many years is not only impractical but impossible. 

Rich


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

Just to clarity Rich, you believe that only 100% original content should be allowed, regardless of how old the original post is? I dare say that new posts would dry up pretty quickly and this board would be less relevant.

I read almost every post but my memory isnt' that good.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

I agree rich, but there will always be impulse buyers. I was. When I got into frogs it was a complete accident, I was searching for a specific aquatic plant and stumbled across one of the board sponsors sites. (Being that i have over 40 fish aquariums salt/fresh, and at the time 15-18 reptile/amphibian species, I didn't think twice about buying my first frog... I ordered both my first frog and ff culture kit at the same time, and set up a vivarium for them in the few days before my frog arrived. Also in that time, I started to research vivarium building, and came across this site. I joined immediately and began my research. I think my first posts were the day, or a day before my frogs arrived.

If I could go back and do it right, I would. And of course my first viv was nowhere near what was required or desired in terms of vivarium success. I was very lucky in that my first frog was very forgiving and a larger hardy species, my first frog was also moved into a proper qt vivarium that first week, and was them moved to a re-built vivarium shortly after that.

I guess I am forgiving of those who do not read all the appropriate beginner/sticky topics, and I imagine that the number of posts can be intimidating. I'd rather answer some of the repeating questions vs. someone making the same mistake I did a few years back and not having the luck that I did. I'm glad that I did TONS of research after that, it is nice to have a site like this where people like Rich, Ed, and other very well experienced people may have answers to questions that are hard to find. I also think that there is a way to draw attention to the beginner/sticky threads before someone posts something, just dont know how lol...


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Well I agree with both of you on different levels. I think even the most basic questions can be research, you are asking to learn, or asking to learn how to figure it out on your own. However, if said person does not attempt to use the tools provided him after other members explain them (i.e. search!) and he continues to ask basic questions, then he is not using those tools for personal research. This can be annoying at best. There is a benefit to questions that are recycled in new posts in that they allow fresh conversation. I could read a bunch of posts on a certain topic, but it does not mean it is the most current advice out there. That being said, I do advocate research such as jdog does, doing his own reading, and I know Rich does.

I am personally giving some thought to a planted fresh water tank. In half an hour on a forum, I learned very interesting things that cause new members to fail time and time again by just reading several stickies. Good stuff. The fish tank communities equivalent to, "how many and what kind can I put in a ten gallon?". So after half an hour of reading, I have already eliminated a handful of annoying questions I know I will never ask on the forum. I will continue to read and learn until I have a questions I just cannot find or I want a fresh perspective.

So I think balance is called for. Even a new "old" question can spark interesting debate, such as the Peat Brick conversation that came form a "False bottom" thread. But I am also equally annoyed by knowledge panhandlers who contribute very little effort to gain their figurative cup of quarters.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

jdogfunk99 said:


> Just to clarity Rich, you believe that only 100% original content should be allowed, regardless of how old the original post is?


Did I say that? Or did I talk about beaten to death and beyond questions? Read from the beginning I guess......




jdogfunk99 said:


> I dare say that new posts would dry up pretty quickly and this board would be less relevant.


No. They would not dry up at all, even IF, IF I did say we should only allow original content. How nice would this be?
A post is started ;
"How many frogs can I put in my 20 gal vert?"
Instead of getting the one or two obligatory "well, I think a few leucs would be nice" or " I think a group of imis will do fine in there", if we actually had a nice discussion. Posts talking about frogger's experience through the whole year or two or three with many , many contributors all chiming in about what they have put in the 20 vert. A thread with actual hard facts about what has been going on with everybody's 20s. A beginner thread that has been going and contributed to by many in the hobby, commenting on each other's input. You know , a forum as opposed to a chat rag.



jdogfunk99 said:


> I read almost every post but my memory isnt' that good.


Which is EXACTLY why it would be nice to have one thread dedicated to that one question which has been asked a million times. No need to remember how to find it. No need to say the search function sucks. It's the only thread on that topic. The nice , long, poly-contributed too, thread that people are yet to become sick of.

Rich


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

That is a good idea rich. I can see how that would be VERY VERY usefull... But not only could you have a thread for 10-20-30-40gal ect, could also have Auratus, Azureus, Leuc, Pumilio ect threads... so if someone is coming from "I have a 20gal tall..." or "I want a pair of imitators..." both aspects could be found.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I am starting a thread on the "How Many Can I Put In?". It would be nice to be able to link to threads referring to different common sized tanks where people can comment on what they keep in those sizes and what people's experiances are with them.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

I think thats a good idea,,, and hopefully it has enough good info that they at least become sticky threads...

will be nice if people add info like water feature/what type, background, or not, vert, horizontal ect.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Right now we have care sheets with general info on a lot of the species we keep. We also have tons of posts on "How Many?" We also already have a billion posts on "mixing" and several other commonly asked questions. FAQ's, stickies, and the like.
Any teachers out there? People commited to the education of our young (or not so young) minds? Exactly how long would it take you to go absolutely insane if a different student asked exactly the same question each and every day of class? The same class. How long would the teachers out there put up with the same question being asked , and asked, and aked every day? What would happen? 
How do we get people to search, read, and contribute to threads already started?
How do we add to threads already started?
How do we make it eay for beginners to find and utilize threads already started? Done, easy.
How do we stem the tide of overabundant "How Many?"s? Not done. Not easy.
There is a reason it is very frowned upon to only read Cliff Notes as opposed to actually reading ,say, Crime and Punishment.
I have found that you get what you put into this hobby. 

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Rich, I know maybe you do not think it is needed, but I thought it was a good idea, so I wrote up a brief outline for the "how many..." topic. I would love to have some nice input on it. That way, when some one asks, I can at least point them there. What else can we do. We will not stop ignorance or laziness.

http://www.dendroboard.com/beginner-discussion/topic38749.html#p286402


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Rich, I know maybe you do not think it is needed, but I thought it was a good idea, so I wrote up a brief outline for the "how many..." topic. I would love to have some nice input on it. That way, when some one asks, I can at least point them there. What else can we do. We will not stop ignorance or laziness.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/beginner-discussion/topic38749.html#p286402


I think it is a fine idea. If we as the 'answering group' can point new posters to this and other well structured threads it may help. 

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Rich Frye said:


> I think it is a fine idea. If we as the 'answering group' can point new posters to this and other well structured threads it may help.


Well I am pretty smart  Ha ha, just kidding. I agree though. These topics are brought up a lot, but usually in short lived threads with a half dozen responses. Maybe if some of us took the time to lay out some details we would have more to show people as a reference. We will see how it works out.


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

> It should be noted these are guidelines, not hard fast rules. What works for one may not work for you and vice versa.


make that red with some *s or !!s 
that and maybe a disclaimer suggesting that beginner owners at least learn through one or two frogs before purchasing more than they can handle. i think the need to display the animal causes people to buy large groups with small tanks. not fun to see a 1inch frog in a 55gal but sometimes that's the way it's gotta be.

if they feel they have or could build an adequate setup, then they can continue reading from there.


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## Invert (Aug 20, 2008)

I lurked for quite a while before joining, about four months I would guess. Maybe closer to five, since that's when I started thinking about building a terrarium. Before I joined ReefCentral I lurked for almost a year before joining.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I think this is somewhat of an interesting subject. However, I do see the relevance.

My join date is 10 days before my first post. That might seem a bit short of time but I think in that time I went through a lot of the posts. 1 day for 8 hours is the same as 8 days for 1 hour a day. So in reality the question should be answered in hours. Personally I have read this forum at work (yeah supposed to be working), at home before I cook dinner, then again during dinner (don't have a dining room table so I eat at the computer), then I read it after I get my daughter in bed. That can be somewhere around....... 6 - 7 hours a day of reading. Course I also get side tracked to other sites that are linked for information on darts but in general that is what I read in a day.

Course... I'm starting to run out of material and I don't feel like I'm even close to "the expert". That worries me that I still feel like there are so many questions unanswered but then again I'm not your typical person. You tell me to add leaf litter I'll ask the dimensions of the leaf, color, species, degrade %, depth, best way to clean without killing the good micro stuff, the approximate usage in 1 year for A x B size floorspace, etc, etc, etc. And then for good measure I'm likely to wonder in my own head what the benefits would be of trying to obtain leaf litter that would be more natural to the frogs habitat in the wild.

Ok so I could turn somthing that simple into a 5 page essay. I'm very detailed and like to know how it works, why it works, what are the alternatives, why they don't work, and what is trying to be accomplished.

Basically I've found out in the last couple of months of reading.... there is no way I'm gonna ever know all that unless I win the lottery and take a sabbatical to South America for the next 5 years and get all the data myself...


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

i also lurked around for over a year before i actually began posting.


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## yut (Oct 8, 2006)

i lurked a loong time..not sure how long but its been a loong time lurking


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## dart_frog_junkie (Apr 9, 2009)

I rarely post here at all. I find that most of my question are already answered. I only post when a question is asked that i have personally experienced.


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## thelegend76 (Feb 10, 2009)

I joined in February of this year and I've posted a few times, I find that I just lurk and read and I find more information, more inspiration and more frogs that I want then I will ever be able to use.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I lurked for over a year at least- maybe closer to 1 and 1/2 just gleaning info


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## rpmurphey (Mar 9, 2009)

I have about a year of research (books, internet, forums, first hand experiance) before posting questions. When I do post ?'s it is only becasue I could not find the ?'s anywhere else. So I do the next easyest thing and ask.

The type of ?'s mainly have you done this or what type of bug you think this is for a second oppinion. That is the most helpful for me. Second oppinions can go a long way.


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## rpmurphey (Mar 9, 2009)

I think the best knowledge I get out of DB is the constrution logs that people post that helps alot with making up my mind for the next and then the next so on and so forth for cage constrution.


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## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

I posted twice within a month because I was responding to the sadness someone felt about the loss of their frog. Then it was probably about a year and a half before my next post.


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

Well I read on here for about a month or two... but I read elsewhere for more then a couple of years.


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