# Sylvaticus raised by pumilio



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

This is a sylvaticus (lita) froglet that was raised by El dorado pumilio, my second cross species surrogate attempt. I have 4 others that I raised using other dendro eggs, primarily that of sylvaticus, histrionicus and pumilio that also just recently morphed. Interesting that the one raised by the pumilio is the largest of the five.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Nice work, it's great to see success with these. Are you going to try raising more with surrogate pumilio parents or artificially with other eggs?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Very cool. 

Ed


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Great work!


----------



## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

awsome, but how do you get one frog to take over feeding anothers tads,

do you remove the parent frogs and introduce the surrogate to the viv.

what about any type of cross contamination?


----------



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

That is wicked, nicely done!


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Cool that's what I was thinking in another thread, that maybe this one might do better since the El Dorado raised it. Looks good so far -


----------



## frogandtoad (Apr 24, 2009)

Nice job Robb. I'm glad you're still trying different methods for the harder egg feeders. You seem to never give up on trying new things. Thank you for your many contributions to the hobby.

Oh...and good luck with your new froglets!


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Robb
How many 'tries' b/f you got them to raise one to completion?

I've tried twice with no success yet.

S


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Nice work, it's great to see success with these. Are you going to try raising more with surrogate pumilio parents or artificially with other eggs?


The parents have transported quite a few tads and I have never gotten any froglets, so I will continue to pull good clutches and raise them on my own when possible.


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Eric Walker said:


> awsome, but how do you get one frog to take over feeding anothers tads,
> 
> do you remove the parent frogs and introduce the surrogate to the viv.
> 
> what about any type of cross contamination?


Yes, you remove the parents tad and replace it with the surrogate. Cross contamination is a possibility but it's not really a concern for me.


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

frogandtoad said:


> Nice job Robb. I'm glad you're still trying different methods for the harder egg feeders. You seem to never give up on trying new things. Thank you for your many contributions to the hobby.
> 
> Oh...and good luck with your new froglets!


Thanks, hopefully others will continue to try new things as well.


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> Robb
> How many 'tries' b/f you got them to raise one to completion?
> 
> I've tried twice with no success yet.
> ...


This is the first with sylvaticus and el dorado. Two other attempts with histrionicus and bastis were somewhat successful. I say somewhat because the bastis raised them all the way but the froglets came out with no front legs. The ones I was raising outside the tank also all came out with no front legs. It is interesting how different types have different outcomes with the same "inputs". In both cases the tads were raised in almost identical situations from a food standpoint. 

Are you swapping out tads? How old are the tads when you make the switch?


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

rmelancon said:


> This is the first with sylvaticus and el dorado. Two other attempts with histrionicus and bastis were somewhat successful. I say somewhat because the bastis raised them all the way but the froglets came out with no front legs. The ones I was raising outside the tank also all came out with no front legs. It is interesting how different types have different outcomes with the same "inputs". In both cases the tads were raised in almost identical situations from a food standpoint.


Were the bastis (and the other frogs you got feeder eggs from to use outside the tank) CB, and the El Dorados WC?


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I was making the switch with newly hatched egglings. Mainly b/c the parents were busy with other tads and were still laying good eggs but letting them sit there and dry out. 

I didnt do a 'tad swap' which is likely the problem [having spoken to you and others about that], I simply added the new tads to the pumilio tanks in broms that I knew they had raised pumilio tads in before. 

Next round I will try for tad swapping if I can get lucky and time it right. 

Shawn


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> Were the bastis (and the other frogs you got feeder eggs from to use outside the tank) CB, and the El Dorados WC?


The bastis and El dorado are both WCs. I think I see where you are going though, the El Dorados are "newer" than the bastis by a few years. If the El Dorados had something different in their egg makeup though, I wouldn't have expected the ones I was raising outside the tank to do as well. The el dorado froglet is larger, so it could be that the el dorado eggs have something more in them than the eggs I am harvesting, or it could also be that they are better at feeding the "proper" amount than I am. There were definitely times when I was scouring through tanks for eggs and came up empty handed.


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> I was making the switch with newly hatched egglings. Mainly b/c the parents were busy with other tads and were still laying good eggs but letting them sit there and dry out.
> 
> I didnt do a 'tad swap' which is likely the problem [having spoken to you and others about that], I simply added the new tads to the pumilio tanks in broms that I knew they had raised pumilio tads in before.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the tad swap I think is key. In all the cases, pumilio, histo, sylvaticus, I swapped tads and they have without fail attempted to raise the tad, albeit with varying degrees of success.

There is definitely some luck in getting the timing right to do a swap. Keep in mind that I have deposited a new tad swapping it with a newly morphing froglet and the parents raised the new tad. So it doesn't necessarily need to be a new tad for new tad swap.


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Please forgive my ignorance, but has anyone tried swapping a pum or other obligate egg feeder tadpole for an imitator tadpole?


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

johnc said:


> Please forgive my ignorance, but has anyone tried swapping a pum or other obligate egg feeder tadpole for an imitator tadpole?


I have tried this once and it was not successful. I only tried it once because of the egg size difference. Pumilio and histo eggs are tiny compared to imitator eggs. That's not to say that it couldn't work and someone may have tried it with success. I just have such good success with pumilio that I didn't devote a lot of time to trying more with imitators.


----------



## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

So were you feeding the Tad's outside the tank or inside? Also, the eggs were infertile? I am just confused a little since it would be luck.to get unfertilized eggs?


----------



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

no he replaced an existing pumilio tadpole with a sylva tad and let the pumilio parents feed it, believing that it was their tadpole and not the sylvatica. 

james


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

james67 said:


> no he replaced an existing pumilio tadpole with a sylva tad and let the pumilio parents feed it, believing that it was their tadpole and not the sylvatica.
> 
> james


I think that was one of the methods, and I think another was feeding eggs to tads from other frogs' clutches outside of a tank


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

jfehr232 said:


> So were you feeding the Tad's outside the tank or inside? Also, the eggs were infertile? I am just confused a little since it would be luck.to get unfertilized eggs?


There were two methods employed, the first was using pumilio as surrogates to a sylvaticus tadpole. The picture is of the sylvaticus froglet that was raised by pumilio. The second method involves harvesting eggs from other dart frogs to feed the tads and yes this is done outside the tank. Doesn't really matter if they are fertile or not, just that they are freshly laid (within 24 hours or so) before any real development of the embryo occurs.


----------

