# Winter shipping



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I've been testing a double foam insulated shipping box I put together with some favorable results so I thought I would post it here. With the insulated box I used the more efficient Phase Change Material gel packs.

The first few tests were done with the box just set out in my garage. With good results there I decided to do one more little more extreme test. This last test I placed the box outside exposed to the winter weather.

The shipping box is 15" x 15" x 15". The inside is 2" foam insulation that I cut to fit as snugly as possible. Inside of that is a small 1 1/2" thick foam cooler I got in at work that just happened to fit PERFECTLY.









On the bottom of the small cooler is the first PCM gel pack pre-heated to 76F.









Next are 12 froglet containers with the data logger placed down the center.









On top of those is the second PCM gel pack pre-heated to 76F.









There was enough space on each side of the cooler to place a 40hr heat pack.









Lastly is the 2" thick foam top.









The box was placed outside last night when I got home from work. Temps overnight were in the low 20'sF. Temps during the day were low 30'sF. The lowest temp recorded inside the small cooler where the frogs would be after being outside for 24 hours was 62F.









I thought that was pretty good.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

You may want to try shipping it someplace, with no frogs of course. I would be interested to see if you noticed the same drop. I would bet not as it should not be in the elements as long.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Gary - 

How did you heat the PCMs to 76F? Did you place them in a water bath of that temp?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Yeah know, I see SO MANY posts on here of people selling frogs as it starts to cool down and they refuse to ship... too cold. NOT TRUE! It's not just inexperienced shippers, even some very notable names (particularly some in the NW) won't do it so I am glad we are trying to get these trials out there and known. I uses a similar setup (just not the PCM material) and have done fine. With this type of packaging I see no reason why we can't ship year round. Some might say "hold on... we need more tests", but if you remember Brian did this exact same thing last year with nearly identical resuts. I think it is safe to ship in the cold if it's done with the proper precations (ie, see above) and hope that other learn from this and follow...

Gary, where did you get your PCM and was it affordable?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

rozdaboff said:


> Gary -
> 
> How did you heat the PCMs to 76F? Did you place them in a water bath of that temp?


Yep. Just a small 2 1/2 gallon tank with a heater and air pump to circulate the water a little bit.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

sbreland said:


> Gary, where did you get your PCM and was it affordable?


The company is Saf-T-Pak - http://www.saftpak.com/

I was able to get them to ship me two free samples through my work and I was able to buy two other ones from somebody off the board here. Otherwise I think they come as a 16 pack. They're continually reusable so there's no need to have 16 of them.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

kyle1745 said:


> You may want to try shipping it someplace, with no frogs of course. I would be interested to see if you noticed the same drop. I would bet not as it should not be in the elements as long.


I agree. I figure if it can handle this extreme it can handle more "normal" shipping conditions. 

I have to admit I was surprised with the results.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I might also mention the box, ready for shipping, weighs 9-10lbs. Not bad. USPS shipping for this size box & weight is about $45.


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## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

At 3lbs it cost me anywhere between $50 and $70 (you are talking 10lbs) to ship via overnight FedEx. How much did the packaging cost you? That inner cooler alone had to be at least $5-$10

I've shipped in all weather extremes sucessfully however, I stop shipping when the cost of shipping + materials is too high to pass on to the buyer. a.k.a winter months

I have to say Gary, your shipping method is really nice!! Thanks for sharing,


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Hey Rob,

I didn't say Fed Ex overnight. It was US Express mail overnight. I haven't shipped this particular box yet but I have used the US Express mail overnight with the last few orders I shipped and have had very good success.

As far as cost, the gel packs run about $8 a piece, there was a little cost for the 2" foam and deli cups, but the rest was free. At the vet office I work at I get a variety of nice size foam coolers ALL the time..............FOR FREE  That's why Aaron is such good friends with me, he gets all the ones I don't want 

If I were to ship this box I would charge a refundable $30 box charge to make sure I got it returned to me.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I just checked Fed Ex shipping from here, NYS, to MA.

Fed Ex Priority Overnight was $60.
Fed Ex Standard Overnight was $51.

UPS was $52 for Standard overnight and $85 for Early AM.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> I just checked Fed Ex shipping from here, NYS, to MA.
> 
> Fed Ex Priority Overnight was $60.
> Fed Ex Standard Overnight was $51.
> ...


Fedex and UPS charge dimensional weight, so your 15 X 15 X 15 box would be charged for weighing 18 LBS no matter how much it actually weighed. Not sure if you used that when getting your quote.

Which of the PCM paks did you use?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Gary
For the sake of experimenting:

you can ship it to me in NH (just as blasted cold for sure) Fedex with my account #.

I think it will end up in TN overnight, then back up to NH. We can pick some really cold temps.

I can ship you the data logger back at some point in a small box, USPS.

-or-

I can replace the PCM with standard gel packs and ship back if you tell me how to reset the data logger (if needed) to see if the PSM makes a difference over the gel.

Give it a try?

Shawn


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Thanks for the offer Shawn.

You would need to have one of these data loggers with the software set up on your computer in order to reset it.

Plus, I would need to get the PCM gel packs back as well. Those are the only pricey part of the box 

Of course if you were to sneak a few of those blue legged intermedius in the box for the way back...................


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> Fedex and UPS charge dimensional weight, so your 15 X 15 X 15 box would be charged for weighing 18 LBS no matter how much it actually weighed.


Not completely true. If that same box weighs more than 18lbs, then the price goes up and the cost is then driven by the weight.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Someone (if not us) has to really do this with both PCM and then gel packs with the same box, same temp range....

Gel packs are 1-2$ each, compared with 8-10$ for PCM. I dont mind buying the PCM but is it REALLY necessary?

We dont know yet

Shawn


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Gary,
Another thing you should try is to extend the testing time so you can see when and how the temps drop off with the PCMs. The PCMs are a little different then standard gel packs. The PCMs maintain a flatter temp as they go through the phase transition, but after that the temp drops off very rapidly. Gel packs on the other hand, give up their heat energy in a more uniform(expontential) manner. Given equal masses, both have the same heat capacity. They just release it differently.

Another experiement I was considering when I was playing with them, was to combine a heat pack and PCM together. A PCM will also maintain a flat temp as the material changes phase in the other direction, as it absorbs heat energy. Like ice cubes in a cold drink in the summer. The PCM would be conditioned a little below it's high end temp. When the heat pack is placed in with the PCM behind the additional insulation, it will last longer. More insulation is better. Any one have a source for cheap VIPs?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

gary1218 said:


> I've been testing a double foam insulated shipping box I put together with some favorable results so I thought I would post it here. With the insulated box I used the more efficient Phase Change Material gel packs.
> 
> The first few tests were done with the box just set out in my garage. With good results there I decided to do one more little more extreme test. This last test I placed the box outside exposed to the winter weather.
> 
> ...


Not bad, but I ship in that weather with just a single styro and phase change material. Box sizes 9x9x10, 5 lbs for a few frogs, and I've got a few rigs that are larger than that for larger orders.
Customers report the PCM still being in a slush state when they arrive, meaning they either could have been in the elements much longer (easily another day) or in colder weather.



sports_doc said:


> Someone (if not us) has to really do this with both PCM and then gel packs with the same box, same temp range....
> 
> Gel packs are 1-2$ each, compared with 8-10$ for PCM. I dont mind buying the PCM but is it REALLY necessary?
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure I already have that data, and might have it in last year's posts.
I'll dig through my files and see what I can find.
Pretty much, the generic gel packs phase change temp is 32F. Above that temperature, they will decrease in temp fairly fast, till they reach the phase change temp, at which point they will hold 32F for a long time, before losing all the heat, and going lower. Using the gel packs with you're stryo is still way better than just a styro though.

I recently aquired some samples of other phase change materials as well, a phase 5, which starts to protect at about 40F, and exogel with a higher phase change temp, which may be useful for summer.

I don't really plan on using the phase 5 in shipping, but short tests show a very small amount would protect from freezing temps. Not exactly providing ideal temps for frogs, but helping prevent temps that would cause certain death.

Just some ideas... the phase 22 I have been working with works great, I'm just always looking for a better way...


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

pl259 said:


> Gary,
> The PCM would be conditioned a little below it's high end temp. When the heat pack is placed in with the PCM behind the additional insulation, it will last longer. More insulation is better. Any one have a source for cheap VIPs?


What I used to do when I used heat packs, is to make a false bottom to put the heat pack in, then I put the gel pack (superior, generic) over the eggcrate, to separate the contents of the box from the heat pack. Worked very well.
I had originally planned on doing the same thing with the phase 22, but once I saw how well just the phase 22 performs, I gave up on heat packs entirely.

Yeah, VIP's would be the way to go, especially since shipping rates are going even higher next year...

I've been wondering how hard it would be to make a vacum insulated panel, if a person could do it with a vacum bagger and some sort of frame (eggcrate?) to provide space for the vacum to exist.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Dancing frogs said:


> Not bad, but I ship in that weather with just a single styro and phase change material. Box sizes 9x9x10, 5 lbs for a few frogs, and I've got a few rigs that are larger than that for larger orders.
> Customers report the PCM still being in a slush state when they arrive, meaning they either could have been in the elements much longer (easily another day) or in colder weather.


That's my next test


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> What I used to do when I used heat packs, is to make a false bottom to put the heat pack in, then I put the gel pack (superior, generic) over the eggcrate, to separate the contents of the box from the heat pack. Worked very well.
> I had originally planned on doing the same thing with the phase 22, but once I saw how well just the phase 22 performs, I gave up on heat packs entirely.
> 
> Yeah, VIP's would be the way to go, especially since shipping rates are going even higher next year...
> ...


VIPs certainly are the current Cadilac of insulators, but I seem to recall doing a quick back of the napkin calc and determining that for our purposes, 2" of rigid foam insulation was pretty darn good, cheap, and easily available. VIPs would definately allow us to reduce the size and therefore cost of shipping though. 

Just a SWAG but I don't think VIPs are easy DIY things. I'd think it hard to find a easily available rigid structure that would hold it's shape under a near perfect vaccum and have a low thermal conductivity. Maybe something like a rigid, open cell foam? Don't they use some type of carbon aerogel in those? We might be able to scrouge some VIPs from a hospital though.

We could also gain a little performance by using Al foil to reduce radiant heat loss. Another test to be done at some point.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

As far as cold weather experiments go, another one I'd like to do or see is one that uses 6"-8" of rigid insulation for the same internal volume, and then ship the thing 3 day ground.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

pl259 said:


> As far as cold weather experiments go, another one I'd like to do or see is one that uses 6"-8" of rigid insulation for the same internal volume, and then ship the thing 3 day ground.


If I remember right, the highest performing insulation (excluding vacum that is) is dead air. Polyeurethane foam is almost equal, plain stryo is good, but not as good as the polyurethane.

If we were going with a dimensional weight is no object, one could put voids inbetween the layers of foam, if they were concerned with dropping a pound, and doing so may enhance the insulating properties, by minimizing thermal transfer within the foam.

I've experimented with the foil faced poly-isocyanurate foam, and the 1.5" thick stuff works well (used some in a recent shipment), is said to provide the R rating of 2" thick styro. One thing to remember about the foil, is that it also conducts heat, so it could provide a thermal bridge in and out of the box, and design accordingly.
I tried the 1" stuff previously, and it was crap, don't know why...

Don't really know about the long term properties of that material, I think I remember reading that after time, the gas in the foam leaks out, and the insulation value deteriorates...maybee the 1" stuff I got was old?


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

kleinhanz said:


> I've shipped in all weather extremes sucessfully however, I stop shipping when the cost of shipping + materials is too high to pass on to the buyer. a.k.a winter months


Rob,

As long as you are confident in your winter shipping methods, in my opinion, passing along your costs is perfectly fine, understandable, and greatly appreciated. Sometimes we have to pay extra to get what we want when we want it, and that should be no surprise to anyone. I personally really enjoy working with those who can accomodate me throughout the year.

Again, just my humble opinion :wink: .


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

That's kinda my opinion too... I think the _option_ to ship at all times of the year is a reat asset, and I think that if it is stated up front that winter shipping runs x amount of dollars more than other times of the year, I really think more people should do it. If it comes down to cost, like Tim said, passing it on to the customer is completely acceptable and I am sure that you will have plenty of people take you up on it. The way I see it, if you are not comfortable doing it then hopefully some of this new technology will help make you more comfortable, and if you are comfortable but know it's gonna cost more, just be up front about it (which I know Rob and most others would be) and I'm sure nobody will complain.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I would like to see the use of the pcm's become the norm instead of the exception.
Some issues with the cost:
Even though I offer a rebate for return of shipping materials, it seems like only 2 out of 3 return them, which is fine, then they just don't get the rebate, but then again, if they don't return, or reuse the product, it's product going to waste.
I've noticed froggers who ship frogs themselves are more apt to return the materials...

I wonder how much a bulk order of the PCM's would be?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Like I mentioned along time ago to you Brian, if you decide to do a bulk order, you can consider me in for some of it.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> Someone (if not us) has to really do this with both PCM and then gel packs with the same box, same temp range....
> 
> Shawn


http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ht=phase22

You've been link slapped!

Adding some results (to above thread) showing the temp curves of the phase 5, and one I did to show the phase change character of the superior enterprize gels.


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## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

^good advise, thanks guys. A break-down of cost of shipping materials may scare some off, but point well taken that they can choose to pass but at least for those who wish to exchange frogs can do so in the winter months. Also, Gary and others use a refudable deposit if supplies are sent back. Something I can conider too.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

I have to agree with these guys. I have gotten frogs from both Gary and Brian, and from Brian when it was colder, and there were no problems at all. THe pack was still a bit slushy too. I have to agree with likeing it when vendors allow for extended shipping. I am willing to pay extra shipping costs if that needs to be the case. I guess my feeling on it is if you are going to spend several hundred dollars on frogs, what's an extra 20 or 30 on top of regular shipping?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Some great methods, that is awesome Gary (and everyone else who chimed in). I used to get live saltwater fish through the mail all the time during the winter and they used similar methods to the above and it always came fine every time.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

joshsfrogs said:


> Which of the PCM paks did you use?


The sales rep at Saf-T-Pak recommended the STP-317 to me.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

so is the consensus to use the STP317 or the 315 for winter shipping?

What about combining one standard gel pack and one PCM in the box?

I am assuming all would still recommend using a 2 box design with 2 40hour heat pack between the layers and the gel/PCM in the frog compartment? yes?

Shawn


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> I am assuming all would still recommend using a 2 box design with 2 40hour heat pack between the layers and the gel/PCM in the frog compartment? yes?
> 
> Shawn


Based on Brian's comments of him just using two PCM gel packs without a double box OR heat packs I'm going to do a little more testing. Starting at half time of the New England/Pittsburg game  

I've got a smaller cooler that's 1 1/2" foam that I'm just going to use two of the PCM gels packs pre-heated to 76F. Temps here will be similar to the last tests, 20'sF overnight & 30'sF during the day tomorrow.

I'll try and get the results posted tomorrow night.


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## frog_newbie (Sep 5, 2007)

I think one of the reasons a lot of people don't offer winter shipping is that they are not offering enough frogs for sale at once. If you list just, say some Tincs and Luecs for sale chances are you won't get orders big enough for MOST if not all of your customers to make it worthwhile.

I think buying PCM is worthwhile buying in bulk, at least here in Canada as Understory uses it. They use zip lock bags to hold it. They also use the blue insulation to make boxes, but they have groved it so it fits perfectly. My Understory shipment came courier, as I am in the same province, and was during a pretty mild month. 

What I think you should do is this. Find out how the major breeders in the coldest states ship during the winter. Copy their shipping method, record the results and cost it out. Then try your methods, record the results and cost it out. That way you will have some benchmarks to compare your results against. Anyone can ship perfectly year round, but the key is to be able to do it at an affordable cost.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> so is the consensus to use the STP317 or the 315 for winter shipping?
> 
> What about combining one standard gel pack and one PCM in the box?
> 
> ...


Based on limited experiments, if it is too cold that the PCM is not enough, the heat packs won't help much either, and you'd be just as far ahead to use either more insulation, more PCM, or both.

On the flipside, in the dual box design, the heatpacks won't hurt much either...in my old packing technique (heat pack divided by gel packs) the package could sit at least 12 hrs in room temp, and still not get above 80.
That's another thing you have to worry about with heat packs (cooking the shipment) that you don't with phase change materials.

I think Eric's idea of using ultra thick insulation may deserve a look...especially those that could use usps (where dimensional weight is not an issue).


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Oh, and what the h e Double hockey sticks am I doing typing about this, I've got - double digits I could be testing in!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> so is the consensus to use the STP317 or the 315 for winter shipping?


? what is everyone using.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Shawn,
I have used and tested to a small degree both the STP317 and STP315. If I was to get some more, I'd go with the wider range STP317. 

I also like the idea of placing them in a ziplock bag as a backup measure. The salts they use in those are pretty nasty, from what I understand, and the ziplock bag will protect the PCM and guard against leaks. 

These PCMs are also very squishy and will "settle" into a big blob if placed on end or edge. They hold their shape best if laid flat, provided of course the box isn't tilted. Saf-t-pak sells a cardboard sleeve for that purpose. I guess one could make their own sleeve.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Thanks Eric

? Order directly from Saf-T-Pac http://www.saftpak.com/

or is there another source?

Shawn


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Shawn,
I worked with the district sales person for the Northeast. Here's his contact info:

Mark Caputo
[email protected]
617-539-0950

Go ahead and drop my name if you want. He's a good guy and was very helpful. He may end up telling you to just go ahead and order from the site, but you'll at least do a little networking in the process. I had also tried to work a couple angles for discounts but was unsuccessful. I'd also try to find a way to get them without having to pay for shipping. If you're patient and can wait, he might be able to get them delivered to his office and then you could arrange to meet him. He might even be planning a sales trip in your area in the near future and he could drop them off.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I ran two more tests. Both these were done with a single layer foam insulation box, 1 1/2" foam, Saf-T-Pak gel packs pre-heated to 76F, but no heat packs.

The first was done with 2 Saf-T-Pak gel packs. Temps got as low as 49F after 24 hours.









The second was done with 4 Saf-T-Pak gel packs. This result was comarable to the double insulated box with 2 Saf-T-Pak gel packs.









Seems the key maybe be a bigger box with double insulation or more of the PCM gel packs.


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