# moss...leaf litter... questions....



## Nerdiemonkeys (Jul 11, 2010)

hey! so I'm new to the board and cannot post a picture of My tank cause I'm on my phone. wevehad our dart frog(our newest addition) for about 4 months. we also have a day geckco and a mantella frog that shares the tank. they all do quite well together I'm happy to say. we just upgraded from a 10 gallon to a 40 gallon and in the process i noticed my previous moss was pretty much dead and even someof the new moss is dying already. 

how our tank is set up is we have 4 to 5 inches of large round (non Sharp)gravel with moss covering it the main water has rock slabs to prevent the rocks from falling in. we also have a filter for the water and a few shallowspots through out the tank. the full bottom is covered in watter. my plants do quite well but my moss keeps dying. 

i don't want dirt in the tank as it will ruin the filter pump and clog it faster. what ground covers can i use that may not die so fast? or at all lol. and what is leaf litter? Google makes it sound to be decaying leads. and where can i find to purchase each ground cover? thanks.


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

First off, welcome to the board! Your moss could be dying due to lack of enough light and/or moisture. While the moss is acclimating to your new tank you should probably mist it once a day. Keep in mind that moss never totally carpets the forest floor in the wild.

Leaf litter consists of dead leaves. They are great additions to any vivs since they provide lots of cover. The ones sold around here typically take a very long time to break down.


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

One of the sponsors of the board has a care sheet for moss.

New England Herpetoculture - Terrarium Moss


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Nerdiemonkeys said:


> hey! so I'm new to the board and cannot post a picture of My tank cause I'm on my phone. wevehad our dart frog(our newest addition) for about 4 months. we also have a day geckco and a mantella frog that shares the tank. they all do quite well together I'm happy to say. we just upgraded from a 10 gallon to a 40 gallon and in the process i noticed my previous moss was pretty much dead and even someof the new moss is dying already.
> 
> how our tank is set up is we have 4 to 5 inches of large round (non Sharp)gravel with moss covering it the main water has rock slabs to prevent the rocks from falling in. we also have a filter for the water and a few shallowspots through out the tank. the full bottom is covered in watter. my plants do quite well but my moss keeps dying.
> 
> i don't want dirt in the tank as it will ruin the filter pump and clog it faster. what ground covers can i use that may not die so fast? or at all lol. and what is leaf litter? Google makes it sound to be decaying leads. and where can i find to purchase each ground cover? thanks.


ok

1. seperate those 3 animals as soon as possible - the day gecko wants more heat and ventilation then the other two, the auratus in your avatr looks skinny and the mantella would definitly prefer more of his own kind and not other species

they may seem happy but stress/agression can go unnoticed right up till one or more is found dead

2. Leaf litter is more or less the best ground cover. It provides the space for micro fauna and springtails to breed and provides cover for the frogs. Moss makes a good accent but as a uniform ground cover takes away alot of benefits


I'm sorry but I dont keep moss in my tanks so I cant help there


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## Jadenkisses (Jun 9, 2010)

What kind of dart frog are you keeping with the gecko and mantella?
That great that they are doing well together - I would have thought a 40gal would be way to small for a mixed species community.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

also, if i came across as harsh, forgive me

mixing if a common beginner hope/mistake and all to often it seems that even when beginners are shown why it is bad they ignore the more expierenced keepers

if you use the search function here for mixing or reptiles with pdfs 

PDF's are great creatures to keep and we all take our time to learn their ins and outs


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## Nerdiemonkeys (Jul 11, 2010)

i think his technical name is a gold dust day geckco? he well i think its a she is about 4 or 5 inches and tends to stay higher up on vines and the glass. we also included a stick on heater to the outside of the tank that works as a heat rock for the geckco but not where the frogs are interested at being. she doesn't seem to even notice the frogs. she was in the same tank as the mantella frog at the tropical store where we got then so they came home together . 

our dart frog came two months later. both were so little when we git them. crazy how fast they grow!! lol. but they tajr turns following each other around the tank. there are little caves and rock hiddings they make use of. each one picked its own cave ad its quite place and is always were we find them when hiding. they started off in the ten gallon and we recently got the 40 set up. 

they don't seem stressed or skitterish at all and none have gotten skiny since we got them just bigger. they really do seem to do quite well.


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## Nerdiemonkeys (Jul 11, 2010)

oops read your post backwards the dart is an .... aurtuz? he is my picture and before putting him in i checked slit with the breeders local and was told it would be no probken as long as they showed no sihhns of aggression


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Nerdiemonkeys said:


> hey! so I'm new to the board and cannot post a picture of My tank cause I'm on my phone. wevehad our dart frog(our newest addition) for about 4 months. we also have a day geckco and a mantella frog that shares the tank. they all do quite well together I'm happy to say. we just upgraded from a 10 gallon to a 40 gallon


This sounds like it will not end well... I'm sorry to say this, but I really don't think this is a good setup. I've never kept day geckos, but I would guess they need higher temperatures and less humidity than the mantella or dart frog. I am also guessing that the mantella is wild caught and this could spread unknown pathogens to the dart frog, which is from the other side of the world. Do a search on mixing for more info...
Leaf litter is basically just leaves, usually oak or magnolia because they hold up well in a viv, which provides cover and a source of food for smaller food items such as isopods and springtails. 
Good luck!
Bryan

*Edit* 
Do you have any more pictures of your auratus? I can't tell because your avatar is so small, but it looks like a silver and black frog? 
Also, can you share more info about the enclosure, such as what type of lid you have, the temperature, the humidity, what you feed, etc.?


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## poimandres (Mar 28, 2009)

Welcome to the board Nerdiemonkeys!

Do a search here for "leaf litter", you will find a ton of information. Three key benefits to leaf litter over moss:

1) Provides additional places for the frogs to hide and feel secure thereby minimizing stress levels.

2) Provide food and a niche for a well established microfauna population (spring tails, dwarf isopods, etc.), and 

3) Encourages natural foraging behavior in the frogs.

Also, as HunterB and Baltimore Brian have stated, those three species should not be kept together. Even if you had a huge vivarium, they are from three very distinct areas of the world and should not be housed together due to stress and pathogens. 

Moreover, there are some vast temperature differences as to what is considered ideal for each species.

Day Gecko - 80º - 88º

Mantella (depending on species) - 65º - 75º , M.madagascariensis,crocea and aurantiaca like even cooler temps.

D. auratus - 65º - 80º

Unfortunately, nothing good will come from keeping them all together in one enclosure.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I would like to see a picture of your set-up.


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## Jadenkisses (Jun 9, 2010)

Nerdiemonkeys said:


> i think his technical name is a gold dust day geckco? he well i think its a she is about 4 or 5 inches and tends to stay higher up on vines and the glass. we also included a stick on heater to the outside of the tank that works as a heat rock for the geckco but not where the frogs are interested at being. she doesn't seem to even notice the frogs. she was in the same tank as the mantella frog at the tropical store where we got then so they came home together .


Well, it's usually not a good idea to keep something the way it was kept in a petstore. Most (not all, though) set animals up in enclusure vwith the intent that they will not be in the enclosure for long. 
So, therefore, a lot of times the animals are kept with the minimum requirement for survival, and sometimes, unfortunatly, they are not kept properly at all.
(I've seen reptiles that need UVB, who had no light on them at all, and they were kept like that for weeks)
And they may have been keeping the day gecko with the mantella to simply save on space, not because they should go together.
Just my thoughts.
And just keep in mind that you may have problems with this setup. No one can make you seperate the animals, but it really is in their best interest if you do.
It'd nearly impossible to recreate a few different enviornments in one tank.


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## Nerdiemonkeys (Jul 11, 2010)

i thank everyone for your feedback butbeing that themantella and day gecko who both come from madacascar and have been together for at least 6 months and the dart frog for 4 months at least with no problems i have no intention of seperating them. if anything were to change and they seem to go downhill then yes i will. i greatly appriciate the info on the moss and leaf litter which is what i was seeking and will think twice on what i share on this forum. but once again thanks for your thoughts.


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## Jadenkisses (Jun 9, 2010)

Well you're right - gold dust day geckos and mantellas both come from Madagascar. But that certainly doesn't mean they have the same requirements.
Mantellas need more humidity than gold dust day geckos can tolerate. 
Also, gold dust day geckos require higher temperatures than mantellas can tolerate.
So they aren't exactly "next door neighbors" in the wild, even though they live on the same island.
But they are your animals.
And I wish you good luck with them, and I hope they continue to do well.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Nerdiemonkeys said:


> i thank everyone for your feedback butbeing that themantella and day gecko who both come from madacascar and have been together for at least 6 months and the dart frog for 4 months at least with no problems i have no intention of seperating them. if anything were to change and they seem to go downhill then yes i will. i greatly appriciate the info on the moss and leaf litter which is what i was seeking and will think twice on what i share on this forum. but once again thanks for your thoughts.


they both indeed do come from madagascar - 

but considering the day gecko is up high nearing the light and warmer
and \the mantella is in the leaf litter cooler and with less airflow

i fail to see how u can off both of these niches in a 36x18x17 (roughly, i measured my 40 gal quick) enclosure


there is no need to watch what info you "share" on this forum
were a body of knowledgeable keepers who are trying to help each other in anyway possible and myself and others are trying to help you and your animals and you are saying we're wrong


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Oh man I just wrote a huge post cautioning a beginner about mixing species and/or producing hybrids. 

While I don't approve of someone so new mixing 3 different species let me say and ask a few things in the interest of truth or at least a more complete overview of the subject.

1. What kind of mantella is it? Some require cooler temps then what are standard for most darts. Also the risks of introducing various pathogens from one species to another is possible like people said. In fact most of the points people brought up concerning your setup are valid.

Frankly of the 3 animals mentioned without knowing the exact species of mantella this one seems at the most risk in my opinion, with the dart being the second because they are so closely related pathogens are more likely to cross between them, then from the frogs to the gecko. 

There can be subtle signs of aggression or stress among the animals that would go unnoticed by most people. Unless you are an expert in each species or at least have a year or 2 experience keeping each species individually and done a lot of research into herps/amphibs in general you should not be very confident in your ability to see those signs. You should not assume because the animal is not already dead or not exhibiting overt signs of stress and deteriorating health that this won't occur in the future possibly at to rapid a rate for you to save the animal.

2. Day geckos favor the higher parts of the tank, and you can in fact have a suitable micro climate in the top parts of a tank for them, especially when you take into account they can easily tolerate dart suitable temps and even humidty for long periods of time, perhaps the duration of their natural lifespan. They are highly adaptable animals, probably more so then darts and mantella in general. While I'm not advocating mixing, day geckos, other small geckos/lizards with similar requirements like many anole species are among the best choices for mixing if it is to be attempted. 

There is a huge thermal/humdity gradient from top to bottom even in relatively small tanks, of course taller tanks are better for creating such a gradient. Most animals can thermoregulate on there own if given such a gradient, including darts. There have been studies that show darts seem to do this. 

Given proper supplementation with calcium d3 the geckos should even be able to get by without uvb lighting though a small screen strip in the top and a uv light would minimize risk to them, and probably improve the mirco climate at the top of the tank for them while not effecting the humidity much at the lower levels where the frogs tend to hang out. I have made tanks like this (ranging from 18tall to 75gallons) and measured the temp and humidity levels at multiple spots and times to prove this out.

Give most day geckos warmer dry areas to move into allowing them to thermoregulate at will and they will be fine. People have day geckos loose in their house breeding with just a heat/uvb lamp and some wet areas for them to go to. Constant high humidity can cause or aggravate respiratory conditions though. And contrary to popular belief a dart tank does not need to be at 90-100% humidity all the time, especially more then a few inches off the substrate floor. Temps and humidity usually vary more in the wild then in our vivs, yet the animals survive and thrive in the wild. Many may stick to micro climates though that experience little variation, similar areas in our vivs can be created with some thought and care.

3. Most animals can acclimate to a certain point to climate conditions outside their ideal. Here is one study on a frog species whose tadpoles adapted both phsically and behaviorally to varied conditions. It is a .PDF file... http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdGdxB...pdf&dir=writing_journal/9&title=File+download

A very quick seach didn't yield any articles dealing primarily with Dart frog thermoregulation, but I have seen it discussed in favor of them having some physical and/or behavioral ability to do so in other papers I've read in the past. If i'm flat out wrong in my memory perhaps Ed or someone else can chime in and cite a paper that offers evidence to the contrary.

4. At the very least if you are going to mix you should have access to other suitable habitats for each animal in case you need to pull one because it is exhibiting signs of ill health/stress or all (in the event the entire tanks is contaminated with a pathogen). Do you have suitable tanks set up or supplies on hand to do this in case this happens? Can you really say you are being responsible and are genuinely concerned for the animals if you don't or aren't willing to spend the money to do it immediately?

5. Dismissing the advice and opinions of more experienced people out of hand without throughly detailing your counter points or thinking behind doing so will not exactly inspire confidence in those people regarding your concern for the animals wellbeing. In fact it may be a reason to question yourself honestly about how much you really care about their well being as opposed to your own viewing pleasure.

6. While some of my comments may seem to be contradictory such as a mantella needing cooler temps, but then mentioning how animals can adapt this just illustrates the complexity of the issues you should be considering. Also please keep in mind there are limits to any animals ability to adapt. How certain are you that you are not pushing the limits of 1 or more of your animals? Do you have the knowledge base to make that determination from a position of honest responsibility? Does that not have implications regarding your qualifications to mix species? Does continuing to mix when you have little in the way of qualifications allowing you to do it with some margin or safety and responsibility not call into question your true concern for the animals?

7. Many people selling animals will tell you things that may encourage you to buy several animals and even mix them when in fact it is not a good idea. You should do your own research on each animal and be very careful who's words you trust especially if they are trying to sell you something.

8. If mixing having all Captive bred animals is generally considered safest.

Please understand I'm not trying to be insulting, or even saying you will fail horribly...I'm working off the assumption you do in fact value the animals' well being and would like to fully understand what you are getting them and your self into, which is why I offered the points and asked the questions I did. Good luck to you and your animals and welcome to the board


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Here is the thread I mentioned about cautioning against mixing...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...t-planting-more-stufff-what-should-i-get.html

A search of the forum on "mixing species" will give you even more info and points to consider if you are interested in doing this responsibly.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Nerdiemonkeys said:


> hey! so I'm new to the board and cannot post a picture of My tank cause I'm on my phone. wevehad our dart frog(our newest addition) for about 4 months. we also have a day geckco and a mantella frog that shares the tank. they all do quite well together I'm happy to say. we just upgraded from a 10 gallon to a 40 gallon and in the process i noticed my previous moss was pretty much dead and even someof the new moss is dying already.
> 
> how our tank is set up is we have 4 to 5 inches of large round (non Sharp)gravel with moss covering it the main water has rock slabs to prevent the rocks from falling in. we also have a filter for the water and a few shallowspots through out the tank. the full bottom is covered in watter. my plants do quite well but my moss keeps dying.
> 
> i don't want dirt in the tank as it will ruin the filter pump and clog it faster. what ground covers can i use that may not die so fast? or at all lol. and what is leaf litter? Google makes it sound to be decaying leads. and where can i find to purchase each ground cover? thanks.


Welcome to DB.

Here are a couple of sites that have good information on moss.

 A discussion on mosses; propagating, caring for, and general info about how they grow.

Moss Fern

New Moss Gardening


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## Nerdiemonkeys (Jul 11, 2010)

Each pet was bred in capitivity, so no wild pets, they also came from the same pet store, which specializes in unusual breeds,and from the same tank. (they get some pretty weird things in! but thats beides the point). We do have a back up tank, and an empty tank that could be set up if needed. We intentionally added lots of hiding places, fake plants as well as live ones, caves, rocks, ledges, vines. We do pay very close attention to all 3 of them, as they are the only pets we have. Were constantly looking for ways to better their enviornment, but like I previously said, they appear to have no issue being together. If we say sighns of aggivation, we would seperate them. But so far we have seen none.

I really do appriciate your thoughts but I honestly would rather of new ideas to improve rather than just the basic "You can't mix, they need to be seperated" I did look into a great deal before acquiring any of them, and the only main thing I ever found was the concern of hybrids. I verified for a fact that the two frogs would be unable to breed. 

So once again thanks for all your input, and if we saw anything alarming, we wouldn't hesitate to seperate but at this point we see no reason it is needed.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Do you know what kind of mantella you have?


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## Nerdiemonkeys (Jul 11, 2010)

I don't know... he is black with green on his back... i'll try and get a picture of him


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## Nerdiemonkeys (Jul 11, 2010)

this one was taken about 2 weeks ago i beleive


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

looks like Mantella Laevigata....he is gonna want his own tank with his own kind


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Yes that appears to be a Mantella Laevigata. The reason I asked is because many mantellas in pet stores are wild caught, and I was assuming he was wild caught, which makes it very possible for him to transfer pathogens to the dart frog. Here is a good website for mantella information if you are interested:
Mantella Frogs


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Nerdiemonkeys said:


> Each pet was bred in captivity, so no wild pets, they also came from the same pet store, which specializes in unusual breeds,and from the same tank. (they get some pretty weird things in! but thats besides the point). We do have a back up tank, and an empty tank that could be set up if needed. We intentionally added lots of hiding places, fake plants as well as live ones, caves, rocks, ledges, vines. We do pay very close attention to all 3 of them, as they are the only pets we have. Were constantly looking for ways to better their environment, but like I previously said, they appear to have no issue being together. If we say signs of aggravation, we would separate them. But so far we have seen none.
> 
> I really do appriciate your thoughts but I honestly would rather of new ideas to improve rather than just the basic "You can't mix, they need to be seperated" I did look into a great deal before acquiring any of them, and the only main thing I ever found was the concern of hybrids. I verified for a fact that the two frogs would be unable to breed.
> 
> So once again thanks for all your input, and if we saw anything alarming, we wouldn't hesitate to seperate but at this point we see no reason it is needed.


why are you taking the responses so personally? everyone on here is trying to help your animals. we dont know you or your situation, but many people here have a great deal of experience with dart frogs and mantellas, and some have extensive gecko knowledge as well, and if you truly care about the animals your keeping youd be wise to listen to their advice. 

no knowledgeable store owner would keep day geckos and mantellas together, so with that being said, im sorry, but it sounds like he/she took you for a ride as they say. i highly doubt that the mantella or the green and black auratus are CB as they are VERY commonly wild caught and sold to pet stores. i would venture to guess that the pet store person told you a lie. 

as for the comment about both the gecko and mantella being from madagascar, that isnt saying anything much. both alligators and gila monsters are from the US but they have vastly different requirements do they not?

what people are attempting to explain, as far as stress is concerned is that stress isnt always something as obvious as seizures or fighting/bullying. sometimes it takes the eye of a trained keeper to differentiate the two. its not a cut at you, just a fact. these animals dont always LOOK in bad shape when they may be on deaths doorstep.

james


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Thats one of the few species of mantella in the hobby I haven't actually kept, but I believe that species is considered more arboreal then most which means that it would likely favor the upper parts of the tank where the geckos are. This could be a problem for at least 2 reasons...

1. There is likely to be more interaction, so you're basically breaking or stretching the general guideline of mixing that suggests you should choose animals that will interact as little as possible. These 2 basically share the same niche in your tank. With 3 species In a smaller tank they are probably all forced into each other's niches more then is wise.

2. While both species share the same basic arboreal "niche", in the wild the climates of those niches might be different. The mantella may prefer a more humid arboreal environment, while the day gecko favors a drier one. I'm not sure, as I havent researched that species extensively. But If your mantella is avoiding the top of the tank it may be evidence that you are not creating the climate of its preferred niche in your tank thus subjecting the animal to increased stress...which will at the very least probably shorten its life span and make it more susceptible to disease and/or infection. 

If that mantella does prefer a more humid arboreal environment you have a small problem because while a day gecko can tolerate high humidity pretty well usually...you are still forcing at least one of those species out side their comfort zone assuming your tank has fairly low humidity at the top and some ventilation which would be best for the geckos(or vise/versa which might be best for the frog). It would be very difficult in a small tank to have suitable micro climates for two arboreal species that prefer different humidity levels.

Regardless of its climate requirements just by removing the matella from your tank you would greatly reduce the risk to all 3 animals.

Just some things to consider.


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