# Hoarding



## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

Lynn and I were watching animal planet hoarders the other night, they had a segment on people keeping reptiles, a lot of Hots. One particular guy had a large amount of monitors, he had gotten bitten several times and developed an infection, scared to go to the hospital, I am not sure if the problem was permits, animals in the condo whatever. In the end he let the monitors loose because he was dieing, knew they wouldn't be fed so he made himself the food source, the police video was ghastly, they fed on his face and a number of organs. After the program Lynn stated that many people in this hobby seemed to be hoarders, which made me start to wonder. I have a decent collection fifty-some adults, and assorted projects going on, I reasoned that all the FF cultures, supplies, moss, substrate, lighting, plants, etc made it seem much larger of a situation then it was. Lynn asked me to go down in the basement and count spare tanks I had stored, there were 18, even though I give some away as friends need them. Just today I was at the hardware store and a guy who I know asked me if I wanted a 55 he was trying to get rid of and I automatically said yes, I may never use the tank, chances are a friend will have a need for it and it's theirs, but people in this hobby run across items that can be useful and we snag it, maybe it is hoarding, any thoughts


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

I buy stuff at yardsales all the time I know someone else will want. My philosophy is, if I haven't used it in the last year, it's got to go. This is how I keep clutter to a minimum. So, If you have a bunch of tanks stored up, which ones have you had for over a year? I'd get rid of those were it me.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I've wondered about this a little, too. We (some of us, most of us?) go from one frog or pair, to many in pretty short order. I've put a moratorium on frog buying for a while, partly because I want to concentrate on the little creatures I already have, partly because I don't want to risk having so many tanks that it effects the quality of their care. Also because I'm broke, lol.

Casual hobbyists are at risk of overload, imo.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Meh. I'm not a hoarder. I only have group of frogs. It's simply a rather large group made up of many different species/morphs and kept in separate vivs. But just one group.


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

Kieth, I think I am a hoarder of frogs, but then again...I don't keep them all.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

chesney said:


> Kieth, I think I am a hoarder of frogs, but then again...I don't keep them all.


Good point, a true hoarder could NEVER give away or sell a froglet.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

siples said:


> Lynn and I were watching animal planet hoarders the other night, they had a segment on people keeping reptiles, a lot of Hots. One particular guy had a large amount of monitors, he had gotten bitten several times and developed an infection, scared to go to the hospital, I am not sure if the problem was permits, animals in the condo whatever. In the end he let the monitors loose because he was dieing, knew they wouldn't be fed so he made himself the food source, the police video was ghastly, they fed on his face and a number of organs. After the program Lynn stated that many people in this hobby seemed to be hoarders, which made me start to wonder. I have a decent collection fifty-some adults, and assorted projects going on, I reasoned that all the FF cultures, supplies, moss, substrate, lighting, plants, etc made it seem much larger of a situation then it was. Lynn asked me to go down in the basement and count spare tanks I had stored, there were 18, even though I give some away as friends need them. Just today I was at the hardware store and a guy who I know asked me if I wanted a 55 he was trying to get rid of and I automatically said yes, I may never use the tank, chances are a friend will have a need for it and it's theirs, but people in this hobby run across items that can be useful and we snag it, maybe it is hoarding, any thoughts


A good amount of that program was conjecture made for an agenda (more than ratings).. There was no indication that he let the monitors "loose" so they could feed on his corpse.... 
While there was some theory that he could have died from a bite that went septic, I was unable to pull up proof that was the ruling on record. If one looks back through the reports, it turns out the monitors were kept cage free normally (along with his house cat..). I would suggest reading HERPDIGEST : Archives= 

and I would also strongly suggest at looking at who is underwriting the programs.. HSUS.. which has a strong lobbying effort to prevent exotic pets from being kept at all... 

Ed


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Ed said:


> I would also strongly suggest at looking at who is underwriting the programs.. HSUS.. which has a strong lobbying effort to prevent exotic pets from being kept at all...
> Ed


Interesting,
Dan


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Good point, a true hoarder could NEVER give away or sell a froglet.


Uh oh. That might be me. I haven't had any froglets to sell but I cried when I gave Chris Teem his frogs back, after frog sitting for a few months.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogface said:


> Uh oh. That might be me. I haven't had any froglets to sell but I cried when I gave Chris Teem his frogs back, after frog sitting for a few months.


It's OK, just sit tight. I just called "CONFESSIONS-ANIMAL HOARDING". They are on the way with a funny white jacket!


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

Ed,
Thanks for pointing that out, I myself watch any of these programs with a little skepticism, if there isn't a certain amount of drama and intrigue, horror etc. you don't get the ratings. I still contend with Lynn that it's the supplies needed to keep a small collection rather then the collection itself (sometimes!!!!).


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

I've watched that show & had very similar thoughts if I might be "one" have collected & bred tropical freshwater fish for many years and to some (my wife) it looks like an addiction and over the last year or so I'm getting into frogs and I always want to make another set up or make another cool water feature and there are no shortage of cool frogs that I want to acquire. I am starting to give some of the aquariums away but only to make more space in my fish/frog room so maybe there is no hope for me but least the frogs won't eat my face if I die taking care of them


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

bristles said:


> I've watched that show & had very similar thoughts if I might be "one" have collected & bred tropical freshwater fish for many years and to some (my wife) it looks like an addiction and over the last year or so I'm getting into frogs and I always want to make another set up or make another cool water feature and there are no shortage of cool frogs that I want to acquire. I am starting to give some of the aquariums away but only to make more space in my fish/frog room so maybe there is no hope for me but least the frogs won't eat my face if I die taking care of them


Tell her it keeps you at home and out of the bars!


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed is 100% correct. They are attacking the hobby. A&E version has contacted me through the herpetological society to try and get reptile horder. They keep telling us BS about helping people not hurting the hobby. I told them we do not want to proivde fuel for Anti pet legislation.

Sent from my Samsung Moment Droid


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I got something totally different out of the OP. The story states (even if not true) that he knew he was dying and let out his monitors so they could eat his dead body. That sounded like a good idea to me! Give them something to eat while waiting to be found. That's a responsible pet owner, IMO. 

Aw crap, my cat was reading over my shoulder


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogface said:


> I got something totally different out of the OP. The story states (even if not true) that he knew he was dying and let out his monitors so they could eat his dead body. That sounded like a good idea to me! Give them something to eat while waiting to be found. That's a responsible pet owner, IMO.
> 
> Aw crap, my cat was reading over my shoulder


Now THAT'S funny! I have a cat that would eat my face in a second!


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## rpmurphey (Mar 9, 2009)

To the OP, I would say that poeple would be hoarders if their hobby over ran thier lives. In my experiance, the little experiance I have with hoarding, it seems that there is one main characteristic that people have and that would be anti-social behavior. I would like to say that I am in no means a licenced Doctor nor studing phsycology but rather on the other end of the spectrum is where my experiance comes from (personally it wasn't with hoarding).

On another note, the show is sometimes frustating and I see Ed's point-of-view. I watch the show only because it is entertaining and I feel more sorry for the animals than the human. Is that bad? I care more for animals than a person. It sounds bad.

There is another show "Fatal Attrations" that is all propaganda against the exotic pet trade. I have stopped watching that show. It pisses me off.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm pretty sure I'm an animal hoarder. I've actually thought about calling the show on myself.

People who keep tigers do actually get killed by their tigers.

People who keep adult Chimpanzee do have their friends face ripped off by Chimpanzees.

People who keep highly venomous snakes do get bitten by their venomous snakes.

People who keep American Bison in their living rooms do get trampled by American Bison.

Let's not blame the show completely for the fact that a number of people are idiots.

Richard.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

rpmurphey said:


> There is another show "Fatal Attrations" that is all propaganda against the exotic pet trade. I have stopped watching that show. It pisses me off.


The episode the OP was discussing was from Fatal Attractions. In fact, it's on my TV right now, they're running a marathon this afternoon.

The OP is also mistaken with some of the facts from the episode. Ed's version was correct. There was no indication about feeding the monitors, etc. He kept his pets free range in the condo full-time. He had multiple previous incidents of bites and the pet cat showed evidence (large scars) of having been a target in the past.

I believe the facts given is they believed he died or was dying from a bite becoming septic. He was on the floor and his pets began to feed on his body. It would have been no different than any other chunk of meat he had fed to them.

I believe decay was also sped up as he kept the temperature in his condo up for the comfort of the lizards, sounds like my frog room.

Now hoarding...........I watch Hoarders, Hoarders: Buried Alive & Confessions of an Animal Hoarder all the time. It's kind of like a train wreck, you can't look away. Should I consider it a problem when they are discussing number of animals, I frequently comment........."Fifteen (or whatever) dogs, that's not so many!"  Now when they mention the 80 cats, that kind of gets to me.

Of course, don't get me started on Hooker Babies (also known as Toddlers & Tiaras). 

Deb


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> Let's not blame the show completely for the fact that a number of people are idiots.
> 
> Richard.


Hi Richard.. 

Being partially facetious we can continue that mantra 

People who drive cars die from car accidents 

People who eat food die from choking 

People who swim die from drowning 

People die from many causes... we can extrapolate the causality to any of them. The questions is what is the real risk of death from those causes... 

As a general comment, (not directed to Richard) hoarding is an issue but that depends on an actual definition of hoarder...there is perception from that program that a certain number of animals defines a hoarder as opposed to the care that is given those animals. The conditions that result in the problems seen in hoarder collections can result from relatively few animals as well as having to many animals. The issue is whether or not the person is taking good care of the animals. I've known people with large collections (literally several hundred animals) that took extremely good care of thier animals and I've known people I've told to sell thier animals as they weren't taking very good care of a couple of animals.

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> It's OK, just sit tight. I just called "CONFESSIONS-ANIMAL HOARDING". They are on the way with a funny white jacket!


Hah! Chris's father suggested I could call them and have Chris hold them up to the phone. Funny man, lol. (jk, Chris's dad is a very nice fella)


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I generally agree with what Ed has said. Although animal hoarding usually involves a large number of animals being kept, it does not automatically make you a hoarder. You cross the line when...

---You fail to be able to provide basic care (food, space, cleanliness, health care, etc)
---You fail to see how the above is hurting the animal and deny or justify the behavior.
---Even though the above is going on, you still continue to accumulate animals.
---You believe that in spite of all of this, you are "saving" the animals and that no one else could possibly care for them as well as you.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Ed,

Tigers, poison snakes, and guns are not legal in New York City and I'm happy about that.

One of the main things that the animal hoarder show points out is, aside from the bad condition that the animals are held, animal hoarding has a negative impact on the hoarder themselves (whether this is causing negative health issues or causing the hoarder to become introverted from other human contact).

I think that's why I think I may be a hoarder.

Take care, Richard.



Ed said:


> Hi Richard..
> 
> Being partially facetious we can continue that mantra
> 
> ...


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

Hoarders are those people who have no more room for the items they hoard and then buy it anyway. Froggers build extra room and buy frogs to occupy it. Obviously, froggers are not hoarders.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Lots of people acquire more frogs than they can care for and end-up burning out on the hobby. So, your generalization really doesn't stand up to experiences that people are having in the hobby.

Richard.



Freeradical53 said:


> Hoarders are those people who have no more room for the items they hoard and then buy it anyway. Froggers build extra room and buy frogs to occupy it. Obviously, froggers are not hoarders.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I think people who steal frogs should be eaten by monitors.

John


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

salix said:


> Of course, don't get me started on Hooker Babies (also known as Toddlers & Tiaras).
> 
> Deb


I literally laughed out loud at that one. Nice.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Ed,
> or causing the hoarder to become introverted from other human contact).
> 
> I think that's why I think I may be a hoarder.
> ...


Hi Richard,

Have you considered that people may work with animals because they don't work well with other people?. Instead of it making people be more introverted, it may simply allow the introverted to function.. 
With respect to hoarding, as I understand it, it requires some aspects of OCD.. 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

salix said:


> Of course, don't get me started on Hooker Babies (also known as Toddlers & Tiaras).
> 
> Deb


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Those people have a problem. Having a specific focus and organized and professional frog or reptile collection is not the same thing. There's a fine line for many people, but this is not the same thing.

I have a lot of tanks in storage. Never know when I might need them or a friend might. 

My compromise with my fiance was a single bakers rack for my frogs. Whatever I can fit on the rack is what I can keep. Plus, the hall closet has a shelving system for fruit flies and supplies. My rack is always in perfectly neat working order and while I may be obsessive, I'm no more obsessive than someone who is crying that their football team lost the superbowl. This just happens to be my thing and would only be a problem if I didn't have specific goals and just bought frogs and set up tanks constantly without any real rhyme or reason to it. 

A hoarder frogger would be someone that maintains a collection of frogs beyond their means and their social and family life is sacrificed as a result. If this is not the case, you're not a hoarder, no matter how big your frog collection is.

I have that one rack and over 10 tanks, but I'm not a frog hoarder. 28 years old, I stay in shape, dress nice, work hard, live in a nice apartment, am engaged to a gorgeous 24 year old girl, and have a baby on the way in under a month. I know people who have 100 tanks and I wouldn't consider them hoarders. They still have a very specific focus. Most of all, they have the means to have a large frog room and don't sacrifice their living situation to do so. Someone who has 100 frog tanks in a house with barely 2 rooms and lives alone and has no friends and no focus on what they do, could be considered a hoarder though.

It's all based on circumstance.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I have a psychology degree from Umass even though I don't use it for my career. I don't ever remember studying hoarding except as a small footnote for OCD in abnormal psychology.

I've never met a hoarder frogger even though I've seen large and small collections locally. I could totally see how it's possible. Like I said, I think hoarding for froggers can be applied when keeping frogs can overtake your life when it effects personal relationships and when your collection costs multiply to the point of financial burden but you can't stop.

Introverts simply don't need things that extroverts need. Their hobby can become the important aspect of their life rather than just a "compliment" to their outgoing life. Doesn't mean they take the hobby anymore seriously though. This is where the problem can occur where they put it before anything in their lives.

Honestly, most of the local froggers I've met are really outgoing, generous, and talkative people. Seems like many froggers that actually last in the hobby, are the ones that have awesome lives to begin with and frog keeping becomes a hobby where they can do something they enjoy on their personal free time. We share the same hobby so getting together is a plus. Most of us have long time friends outside of the hobby and it's just not fun to talk with those people about frogs. I think if frogs are your only ambition in life and relationships are just not on your list, except for making friends in the hobby, then you should re-evaluate your life and get out there. 

I take excellent and obsessive care to make sure my husbandry is top notch in my frog collection. But, my loved ones and friends are the most important thing to me. Luckily, I found someone who knew I wanted to get back into frogs for years and was caring and accepting enough to sit down and make a compromise with me. She keeps me grounded and because of how good my life can be and also how hard it can be, I appreciate that I can enjoy a frog collection in my spare time. I have frog goals but they come at a pace I can enjoy and maintain without it feeling like work.

It should only feel like work if it's your job.

I guess I have no real point. I'm just as obsessed with frogs as a guy who has way more tanks than he can financially care for and physically maintain, but I do it as a compliment to my life. 

I know there's members here that know a lot about frog courting and know nothing about what drives a woman or what makes her smile. If that's the case, that's sort of sad that you don't get to experience the good things of human relationships. We all love frogs, but if human relationships aren't working for someone, they should not hide behind a hobby to find fulfillment. Find it everywhere in life and the frogs will be even more rewarding.

Again no point..rambling!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

rpmurphey said:


> There is another show "Fatal Attrations" that is all propaganda against the exotic pet trade. I have stopped watching that show. It pisses me off.


i wont watch anything on animal planet anymore. almost all of their shows are just crap that piss me off. natgeo wild is way better.

anytime i have extra money i buy frogs, does that mean im a hoarder? no, because i take good care of all of my frogs. and because i dont buy frogs when i need other things more.

its a HOBBY, most people invest a lot of money and time into a hobby. my dads crazy about his car, my buddies crazy about his camera, and my uncle is crazy about fishing. its a crap show with a crap agenda.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I think Richard is a hoarder and I'm right behind him. I can barely move in my little office. Surrounded by tanks. Sorry Richard I never tell a lie. John


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Have you considered that people may work with animals because they don't work well with other people?. Instead of it making people be more introverted, it may simply allow the introverted to function..
> With respect to hoarding, as I understand it, it requires some aspects of OCD..
> 
> Ed


I think the introvert part is a big consideration. In many people (myself included), there can be a transient feeling of being ignored, misunderstood or unloved at times, and that makes you want to care for something that can't reject you, so you latch onto that to some degree. I think this behavior can be also triggered by a traumatic experience like a death in the family or other crime. 
I think keeping and caring for animals responsibly is a healthy thing to do and can assist one in the healing process when others have hurt you. As one who was always the misfit/nerd in school I can relate to that feeling. There are other folks in my life, though, that I would say have helped me way more than keeping frogs, and I'm grateful for that.

Hoarding has a lot of motivations, I'm sure, but I don't think it would be called hoarding unless there were other things that were neglected like people living in the household, friends and family who you care about were ignored, etc. etc. So I think hoarding is a different behavior than feeling clingy for various reasons as the outcome of the animals and theirs/your environment differ considerably.


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## Mr. elder (Jan 29, 2011)

being a mover . you learn about hoarding fast .there are all different types of hoarders .some people just have money and some are sick in the head. I us to have about 15 to 20 breeders chameleons . and about 75 baby panthers .for couple of year ,when I was 18 to 20 . it was to much at that time of my life . but it been hard to get raid of the 20 or so cages i got . and at that time ,my head wasn't done maturing. now 26 have kid ,house and head been doing great for awhile . just saying life first , hobby's second .kid and girlfriend make so easy for me. in life these days you just got to stay on the stuff coming in your home.where all hoarder the fact where not nomadic any more . we store food , tools ,and some people weapons . in the hope or knowing of needing them .my 2 cent ,jeremy


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> YouTube - Toddlers & Tiaras with Tom Hanks


OMG! Thank you, thank you, thank you, one of my favorite shows and one of my favorite actors. A link to that video is now on my desktop. I laughed out loud so many times my husband came in the living room to see what I was watching!

You'd have to be a fan to get the joke 

Deb


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## pamnsam94 (Jun 24, 2008)

When having a conversation about hoarding with my wife or friends (we've all seen the show), we've all come to the conclusion that as long as we don't feel an absolute need to retain things (both animals and stuff in general) and can be convinced relatively easily to part with them, then we are not hoaders. Whew! In my house there seems to be a continual ebb and flow of things (animals and stuff) from month to month or year to year. However, because my basement had a lot of stuff in it for years (it remained the same), I just had to ask some friends whether they thought I was a hoarder. They assured me I wasn't. I guess I was just lazy for not cleaning it out.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

i dont know bout all that mumbo jombo. Im out going,handsome, successful, and popular in high school. So why am I hoarding!


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

You're successful and in high school? What do you play the stock market or something? lol

I have a lot of frogs but as I said, not a hoarder. I was with in the in crowd and could always talk to girls. I would feel terrible about myself if frogs were the only thing I could be proud of. I would also be sad if I was proud of my frogs breeding but I've never bred myself haha. I know some guys are shy and that's ok. There's a woman or man out there for everyone. You just have to keep your eyes open. My sister recently broke up with her boyfriend of three years and keeps thinking she'll never meet anyone again. He did it randomly and it was a huge shock to her and our family. It's been 7 months and she's still single..but I keep telling her there is always someone else and maybe even someone better. Nothing wrong with being single anyway. Life is easier that way!


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

lol haha i hear ya. Im old and married now. but yes there is someone for everybody and it will happen when you least expect it. I lived a bacholars life for a lot of years. Both are good.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Well, I just gave away one of my frogs and I didn't cry, much. So, I think I'll be ok


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

frogface said:


> Hah! Chris's father suggested I could call them and have Chris hold them up to the phone. Funny man, lol. (jk, Chris's dad is a very nice fella)


My dad said that???...lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

Here ya go Kris...now if you miss her while at work you can see her...lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

rcteem said:


> My dad said that???...lol


Yes, he's clearly an enabler.


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