# tenebrio molitor



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

anybody use standard mealworms? I have found that when young, my tincs LOVE them. They are much more active than rice flour larvae and tend not to drown in the humid environment.

However, once they grow to a certain size, you cannot use them. I have had my tincs eat ones that are 1/2" long, but they kinda "choked" on them trying to swallow.

While young though, they are easier to harvest than rice flour larvae. All you need to do is put a piece of carrot or potato in there and they will cling on to it.

Output is relatively slow though.


----------



## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Doug,

How did you raise them?


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I just got a shoe box and added about an inch of white flour. I bought some mealworms from the petstore and let most of them pupate into beetles. It took like a month, but then I got hundreds of tiny larvae when I sifted them with a strainer.

I only kept the temperature at 70-74 though. Do they like it warm? I was afraid to put them on a heatpad as it raised cricket egg tubs to about 98 degrees F. However, its been several weeks and many are only 1/3 the size of the adult larvae. So, it will still be a while before they are ready to pupate and lay more eggs.

I do though, think that I really should add more flour now because there is a lot of crowding in the container which could be limiting their growth.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

What are you using for moisture?


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

carrot and potato.

I just strained the culture today to refresh the media and came up with dozens of large larvae...too big for my darts now but excellent for my firebellied toads. 

Only two adults are pupated right now. I'm pretty sure from the next generation as all the previous beetles have died.

I decided to keep the strained flour and add more to it in another shoebox, as I saw some small mealworms in there. If it is not sterile, hopefully I can get another batch of teenie mealworms to feed out to my tincs. (somewhat like the idea of straining a rice flour culture to sift out the eggs but remove the adults).


----------



## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Whole wheat flour ups production a lot in my experience...after leo breeding I always have two 18 gallon rubbermaid cultures on hand producing. Optimum temp for high-output production with plenty of small mealies (off of my experiments) is around 80-85 but lower temperatures work for lower output. Higher than 90-95 degrees can cause sterile beetles.


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

thanks for the information! How do I raise the temp to that? Everytime I've used a heatpad for people on the lowest setting it gets to about 95 degrees or more.


----------



## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

If you still want to use the heat pad, just use some PVC segments or something to raise it up a few inches off the heat pad or something.


----------



## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

thekidgecko said:


> If you still want to use the heat pad, just use some PVC segments or something to raise it up a few inches off the heat pad or something.


Or just put a few pieces of eggcrate underneath it.


----------



## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Yeah thats what I was thinking of when I typed it, but couldn't remember the name. Lol, I'm on vacation, I don't remember names and such..... :lol:


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

My tubs were always sitting just above fluorescent light fixtures, tho at this point I use heat lamps left over from my lizards for my higher temp buggies (roaches and beetles).

I really want to use the mini mealworms (_Tenebrio obscurus_) which stay a much better size (when they grow too big for smaller species, the larger species will easily eat them). Unfortunately not a lot of people have had good luck with getting them to reproduce well, mainly because the people producing them don't want to tell their secrets


----------



## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Lol I've been producing them for years. They are relatively easy to reproduce. Just take the big 18 gal or smaller rubbermaids and fill about an inch of wheat flour (as opposed to white flour) and feed 'em potato slices and Rep-Cal Bearded Dragon Food (my secret technique for good production and gut-loading) every week. Harvest as needed w/ a fine-meshed sifter. Take out worms and beatles when the substrate starts getting very fine and smells of ammonia and replace with new substrate. Be sure your source of breeding stock is clean (not mentioning anything b/c no unregistered vendor feedback) because I lost most of my leopard gecko collection at one point to disease brought in by feeders. Thus I started breeding my own. Also, make sure they get plenty of ventalation and NEVER let them get humid. That is a key, so always remove uneaten food w/ in a few days (though there should be little to none). try to keep them at 80-90 for optimal production levels. For slower growth and reproduction keep at 75 degrees.

I posted this in a hurry, so please excuse any mistakes :lol:


----------



## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

WOW...I haven't heard of anyone using flour of any kind to culture mealies!! We use a "Power Mix" Wheat germ, spirulina, brewer's yeast, rice cereal, oats, spinach powder, beet powder, etc to use for gut loading crickets, and breed our mealies on. These things can produce like crazy when you give them a little attention. I went back and looked at our reptilefood.com history. The year we bred our own mealies saved me over $1500 in crickets, then the year after where we stopped!! We also use yams, potatoes, romaine, oranges, etc for moisture. They can lay thousands of eggs out of a rather small group. If you want to keep sizes similar, put the beetles into a new container about every two weeks. We use medium sized rubbermaids (Maybe 12qt?) with about 2" of the mix above.

Mike
http://www.snmreptiles.com


----------



## jejton (Sep 3, 2006)

This link has information on raising t. obscurus.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2135.html


----------



## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

My reasons for using for flour are mostly simplicity because I not only breed and keep (sometimes sell I guess) animals but I have a LOT of school work so I just pop in some flour and food and whammo. Not to mention the FF cultures :roll: The other, and less prominent reason, is to reduce chance of contamination of the culture. Your mix sounds much more nutritious on the other hand, but a complete diet accounts for most of that that in my worms, plus a good dusting. Either way or a combination of our two methods sounds good, whatever you feel like doing  I TOTALLY agree on saving on crickets!!! Esp. after having so many things that eat them lol. I also lost some $450 worth of leos to a bad shipment of crix so yes they do save money and effort dealing with sources.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I bred my own crickets for years, until I had to move my animals into a lab. Unfortunately I could not continue to breed my clean crickets due to a mix of politics and bad conditions, and had to use the "dirty" crickets ordered from a company I normally refused to feed. Coccidia ended up taking out my colony of leos and aussie geckos. So yes, its good to get clean bugs and breed them yourself so you know they stay that way...

As for the fact sheet, note that it lists both species of mealies. I found this fact sheet in early searches and basically discarded it because its basically for standards, and they are tossing in the darks because they have similar enough care to live... but I'm looking for the secret recipe to get them to produce like the #s people are talking about here for standards. I'd be interested in some of the research papers about them that would go into how they reproduced the animals to get the numbers needed, but don't have access


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

how large does obscurus get? I would like to try to feed out beetles to my mantellas and tincs.

Forgot, also, how long is the general lifecycle for mealworms? I have really only gotten on batch after two months (very large larvae though) @ 72 degrees.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Interesting stuff... after talking to a bug person not associated with the hobby, I've come across some *interesting* information. The "mini mealworms" are not actually _T. obscurus_, but rather _Alphitobius_ sp. (micro worms, false mealies, lesser mealies, buffalo worms). They are pretty popular for small birds and reptiles over in Europe...

Problem is that minimealworms.com is convinced they have _T. obscurus_ which is a mealworm larger than what they are working with, and from all the literature, has the same care as _T. molitor_. This explains why all the literature on T. obscurus doesn't help you at all in raising the minis because they are flat out the wrong thing! All the differences in action and care should be their major clue that the name is wrong...

Lesser mealies get 10-15mm long (around to just above 1/2 in), and the mantellas should love them. I'm getting some in a few weeks, and will try them on my frogs... these are much more active than RFBs and tiny mealies, so the tincs might actually go for them more. I don't know about the beetles, I'd rather keep the beetles around to reproduce than feed them.


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

So Corey - is their good info out there for culturing the lesser mealies? (Could do a search - but am assuming you already did :wink: )


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

No, not really  I found tons of EU sites selling buffalo worms, but no culturing info. I was given some recommendations for culturing them, but would like to test them out myself to see if they work and if I can set up a general way to culture them. As people have noted when receiving these "mystery mealies" from other suppliers, they tend to not do crap when you get them.

There is also the possibility that the particular bugs I work with could be another species as they come from different suppliers. When/if I get a system down for the buggies from my supplier, I'll buy some from minimealworms.com and compare the two. Last thing we need is more misinformation about these bugs...


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

So, what species does Derek Radar have? (micro mealworm) And, where are you getting your cultures Corey? I'd like to purchase more "mealies."


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'm not posting my supplier until I've finished at least my first buyer's experience. Don't want to recommend a supplier until I've got a reason to recommend them!

I can't speak for what Derek is keeping, and I can't really guarantee what I'm getting is the same as anything else as these might be from stock originally field collected, rather than from some of the other suppliers. This is another reason I plan to see if I can culture what I'm getting, and then compare to the stock from minimealworms.com....

Basically... there is SO much confusion over "mini mealworms" in the US hobby, that I honestly couldn't say which are what. About all I can say, is I know where I got mine from, and I'm going to try and figure out what works for them.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I suspect that if you can get a copy of the following article you will have all of the information you need 


Rueda LM, Axtell RC.; 1996; Temperature-dependent development and survival of the lesser mealworm, Alphitobius diaperinus.Med Vet Entomol. Jan;10(1):80-6. 

(and no I do not have a copy of the article. I simply ran a search for culturing Alphitobius diaperinus.... )

Ed


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Anybody have ideas how to make the A. diaperinus media more moist, without causing a ton of mold problems? I am not going to culture them in G. gallus domesticus excretement! :lol:


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is also a description in BREEDING FOOD ANIMALS/LIVE FOOD FOR VIVARIUM ANIMALS Krieger Press 

Ed


----------



## mack (May 17, 2005)

this link gives the info on culturing them:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/AEM.01471-06v1.pdf


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

after reading it, I am not seeing any evidence that they need "additional" moisture, just extra heat.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I wasn't really told "additional" as much as having a constant source of it... like keeping a moist potato or something in the bin. I've raised mealies without sources of moisture in there constantly, but this would be detrimental to the lesser mealies as they come from more humid areas (such as chicken litter/poo vs. a drier environment like grain... they typically go for more humid environments with sources of moisture).


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

correction, sorry, I meant by sources of moisture as in humidity wise. I always give carrot/potato to my mealies. But I did not see any evidence in the article that they need moister medium which is pretty much impossible unless you want mold.

However, perhaps covering the container more (but with still a lot of ventilation) might simulate this?


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That sounds like a fungus problem waiting to happen. I've read of people keeping mealies that have moist paper towels as a source of moisture, as well as some veggies. I think this, with lots of ventilation, is more the direction needed... not exactly moist media, but just constant sources of moisture for them to take advantage of... with mealies you don't need a 24/7 source of moisture, but it sounds like you do with the lessers.


----------



## geedubya (Mar 16, 2006)

*T. molitor*

Bump

Carey,

Any progress on the "mini-mealies"???

Gary


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't really have anything to report, as I've been working 50+ hour weeks... just haven't had time to do anything. Now that shipping weather is here, I should be getting another group from another source... may or may not be the same species. Will eventually get the "mini mealies" that started this whole thing to compare them, but I'm up to my ears in feeders right now that I gotta keep what I have going first!

When I develop conclusive information, I'll be adding a "mini mealworms" profile to my feeder guide for the Little Brown Frogs Project (still under serious construction) which will not only detail the debate over what is what, but also my results and what not for keeping these guys.

Any input into the site is welcome as always. If/when I get these guys going, I'll hopefully be able to pass some on to others to test as well. Testing on my frogs doesn't always mean much, as they tend to eat anything that moves even slightly


----------



## geedubya (Mar 16, 2006)

*T. molitor*

Corey,

Thanks for the reply. I can totally relate to the "too busy" part, especially with the warmer weather! 

Sorry about the typo on your name.

Good luck!

Gary


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Didn't even notice actually. LOL. I tend to notice when people forget the "e" (which bugs me for some odd reason) but tend to not really care about the "o" being an "a". Weird.

New job and having to set up a move makes bug time limited


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

well, for my own update, I got a very large successful feeding of T. molitor for my tincs. They went nuts for them. 

However, keep in mind you only have a window of a few weeks before they get too large. So, its best to feed out as much you can when they are ready...but yields are much higher than with RFB. I'm sure the larger frogs will relish ones that are too big for tincs.

A trick to harvest, after sifting the media, hold the strainer over a paper towel as its easier to collect them by letting them squirm through the strainer. After a few minute, gently tilt the piece of paper towel and excess media will come off but worms will climb to it. 

I then just brush off the food into my tincs bowl.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Why not then refridgerate the little guys just like the petstores do? Figure out how many you need as breeding stock, chuck the rest into the fridge. Take em out, pamper them with carrots or whatever for a few days, and when they start thinking they are your pets then toss em to the frogs.


----------



## RickB (Apr 10, 2006)

Are phoenix worms the same ones you are talking about?


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

phoenix worms are larvae of soldier flies, so nope not the same thing.


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I may try the refrigeration strategy at another date. I was very pleased with the results...for some odd reason, my rice flour culture has not produced at all, even with fresh medium for a month.


----------

