# 20-30 vents in a 180g tank



## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

Hey guys so I was wondering if I could put 20 to 30 vents in a 180 gallon fully set up tank and eventually have them all breed in a group successfully. I recently obtained a 180g and am looking to do this with it. Would it be overwhelming taking care of this many tads? Is it too many frogs? Would the frogs die of stress due to too many frogs? I will have probibly close to 200 film cans and many broms incase I don't find clutches. The feeding the frogs isn't the issue it's the outcome of the situation. If anyone has done this and has any helpful information it's greatly appreciated! 

-Nick


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

If you were to pull this off, and it could be done, what would you do with all of the offspring??????????



Scott


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Lol....flood the market. Thats alot of vents.


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Not trying to mess up your plans or anything, but this is just my opinion on the matter - and only that! So please don't take offense.

Instead of cramming 20-30 frogs into a viv (way too many in my opinion) why not have a smaller group say <10 - and give them the viv space they so rightfully deserve.

If I could, I would house all my frogs in small groups within vivs the size of those you describe! I am sure many others here would do so in an instant also if it was financially and feasibly possible.

Simply put, why not be one of the minority who has the chance to go above and beyond for their frogs?

Regards,
Richie


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I have 5 exotic reptile stores that all care for darts near me so selling isn't an issue even though I know I will be overwhelmed eventually. And to the other response, the thing is I would never see 10 little frogs in an 180g tank. The work isn't the issue and I don't think the space is either. There small and the cage is HUGE with a great stuff background and other things like driftwood and broms for hiding. I just want to know if it could be done without territory issues or other things like that.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I'd put 10-12 in there and you'll have 30+ vents living in your vivarium in no time. I doubt you'll have territorial issues, but IME once population hits a certain density the vents will stop/slow down breeding.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I think R1ch has a great point although it would be really cool to see 20-30 Vents in a tank I think it would be better over all for the frogs and you once breeding starts to do 5 sexed pairs with 10 frogs you would still see quite a bit of action but not get the overloading of breeding possable out of 20-30 frogs... Also with that many frogs I think it would be impossable to make sure all frogs are getting enough to eat. Why spend the money on a max of 30 frogs when you can have an awesome tank with 10 frogs and spend the money on awesome broms and choice pieces of drift wood and have a display that is just as amazing.....JMHO....


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

Great points. Well I don't know If I will find the clutches as well. I think your right, ill just go with 15 or so and save for some nice plants or such. Would I find the clutches?


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

reptiles12 said:


> Great points. Well I don't know If I will find the clutches as well. I think your right, ill just go with 15 or so and save for some nice plants or such. Would I find the clutches?


I would say there will be many clutches missed if using broms and would only know that you missed them once you seen froglets hopping around the tank. With the amount of broms that would be needed for disposition sights for that many frogs I am sure there will always be clutches missed. From what I have seen in my imitators and other Ranitomeya they will pick broms before canisters unless there is tads in the broms already then I have seen them drop off in canisters.

When I first got my varadero I pulled most of the clutches since they were laying in canisters. I quickly got to the point of having 25+ tads in deli containers. 

They also got smart on me and started laying in canisters I had in the background that couldn't be removed as well as dropping off tads in broms and pups that have grown in and couldn't be removed to gather tads or the clutches. Since then I still get quite a bit of breeding and find froglets I didn't know were in there. So yeah if you use a mix of canisters and broms there will be clutches that you miss. 

But leaving them do do their thing will also slow them down a bit which is nice. I got to the point I couldn't keep up with them replacing every clutch I stole so we came to an agreement, they would lay and drop off in places I couldn't get to and I would just collect the froglets once they got big enough. I still get quite a bit of froglets showing up but I also get periods where there is no breeding which is better for the health of the frogs and more importantly the female.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

Well if your saying it'll be to many clutches to handle I guess I will put some broms in there so im not too overwhelmed and it looks nice


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

reptiles12 said:


> I have 5 exotic reptile stores that all care for darts near me so selling isn't an issue even though I know I will be overwhelmed eventually. And to the other response, the thing is I would never see 10 little frogs in an 180g tank. The work isn't the issue and I don't think the space is either. There small and the cage is HUGE with a great stuff background and other things like driftwood and broms for hiding. I just want to know if it could be done without territory issues or other things like that.


You might be surprised. I have 5 vents (amazonica) in my six foot long 125 gallon and I see them all every day. They are very active and visible in a big enclosure. I'd say 10 is a good starting point for your size tank. You'll have many more than that before too long I'd bet.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

If the aim is to recreate a piece of nature at home, I doubt you can find 20-30 frogs in the space that you have indicated in any corner of undergrowth. If you want to raise a lot of frogs, you should opt for more terraria with pairs or trios. But you can always try and let us know. Regards


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

Are you sure you have the money to buy 20 or 30 frogs that usually cost around $50-75? Not to mention caring for all of them and keeping track of each one so you can make sure they are all healthy.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I think it would be possible to do but there are things that you would have to plan out and plan well for. Like multiple prime calling spots for however many males you have, seeding the tank enough to keep up with microfauna and having extra cultures going and booming to replace it as it is eaten up the the adults and offspring.... Building the background and such with enough sight blockers as males set up territories and breeding. I wouldn't say it is impossible just have to plan, also think about how you want the sex ratio to be. Personally I would go with more females then males but I don't know or have experience with that many frogs in one tank although vents are known for being good in groups.. If you do it just be diligent in keeping an eye on them to watch out for fighting not just males but females as well, watch out for frogs that are not eating enough so have a holding tank available incase you have to pull one or more. As well as watching out for frogs that may succumb to sickness... All things that have to be thought out and planned for before starting....If you do it keep us updated and make a build thread so we can watch the progress.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

reptiles12 said:


> I have 5 exotic reptile stores that all care for darts near me so selling isn't an issue even though I know I will be overwhelmed eventually.


Reptile stores that deal in dart frogs are often catering to first time buyers. As a general rule, first time buyers are not looking at thumbnails. You may be surprised to find that you may make one sale to a local shop, and that's the end of it when they kill them before selling them. There is very little interest in thumbnails in the retail shops I've been to.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I found each frog for 40$ plus a large group price is a discount. And I am starting the build in about a month so im planning for a month and am adding the frogs around July. So I have plenty of time for microfauna and planning and things. I'm going to cut my range down to 10 or 12 I guess and work from there. I don't know abot broms yet, I want he tank to be beautiful with orchids and broms but I want to be able to find the clutches. When I start the project I'll definetly make a thread with the project for you guys to follow.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

I agree with Zach the tank will reach a caring capacity, and breeding will slow. Thumbs can breed with surprising high densities. A 180 is a large environment, so if its dense , there could be a bunch in there.


Daryl


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

reptiles12 said:


> I have 5 exotic reptile stores that all care for darts near me so selling isn't an issue even though I know I will be overwhelmed eventually.


You'd be lucky if the local shops paid you much at all anyway. They never want to pay anywhere what they are worth because they have to turn around and sell them. Theres a shop near me that wants to buy baby cresteds from me for $10 even though she sells them for $70.

I would agree with reptiles12 and go with a dozen or so. With a nice tank like that you're gonna see them out.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

wow 10 dollars! that really sucks, i dont know how much i would sell them for but 3 of the 5 are very responsible and know what their doing, though if the prices were less than say 20 for an azureus they sell for 50 i would say no and probably sell them here.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

daryl34 said:


> I agree with Zach the tank will reach a caring capacity, and breeding will slow. Thumbs can breed with surprising high densities. A 180 is a large environment, so if its dense , there could be a bunch in there.
> 
> 
> Daryl


what exactly do you mean my density?


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

reptiles12 said:


> what exactly do you mean my density?


Lots of plants.....


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

alright well with broms out of the picture for now im kinda lost , ill make sure i fill it with lots of orchids and vines. so my conclusion is a dozen vents in the 180 without broms. thanks for all of the replies guys!


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## Bunsincunsin (Feb 11, 2008)

reptiles12 said:


> what exactly do you mean my density?





JaredJ said:


> Lots of plants.....


Or rather, population density?


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Yeah i see that now. Had to go back and read it again


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

reptiles12 said:


> alright well with broms out of the picture for now im kinda lost , ill make sure i fill it with lots of orchids and vines. so my conclusion is a dozen vents in the 180 without broms. thanks for all of the replies guys!


Why no broms?


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

I meant population density. And carrying capacity of a defined space.

Daryl


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

Because i will miss the clutches in such a huge cage and end up slowing down the reproduction by a lot.


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

30 vent? So lets say you ended up with 15 females, they each female ends up laying 8 clutches of 5 eggs.(Which is a conservative estimate) Say all of the tadpoles survive and morph to froglets. You have 600 froglets to take care of and try to sell. I doubt selling all those local is a option, so are you comfortable shipping? What are you going to do when you don't have room to store all of the froglets?... Or time to feed them?... Or can't even give them away?


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## drutt (Oct 4, 2011)

Hi 

I have 4 vents 1.2.1 in a 100gallon tank and even if there is a lot of space for them I can see that the females are very territorial and they jump agains eachother. I dont think thats a good idea even if it would be nice to see a lot of these frogs together. My idea of haveing frogs is to make the enviorment the most realistic I can and I doubt that 20-30 frogs in the nature gather in that area of 180 gallions...


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

@Drutt: Can you really say that the vents females are territorial? I don’t have vents, but I thought it was a group species. I want to take them, but I have to think about it if they are aggressive towards each other.


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I agree that 30 is way too Much. It was just an idea I'm going to go with 10. That's 18g of space per puny frog plus a gs background so I think it should be okay.


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## drutt (Oct 4, 2011)

rigel10 said:


> @Drutt: Can you really say that the vents females are territorial? I don’t have vents, but I thought it was a group species. I want to take them, but I have to think about it if they are aggressive towards each other.



I'm no scientist or have not studied biology, but I've looked for hours on my frogs and in my case, the females have divided the terrarium into two parts.
The funny thing though is that they share the male. What I do not know is how they can know what tads are theirs. All my bromelisas with water have TADS but somehow they know or who they are intermingled...

I've only had them for 3 months, but I do not think you need to worry that they're aggressive. However, I have one frog that I dont not know sex on that everyone seems to bully

(just translated from google..)


hope you understand..


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

No problem. I understood very well (I'm Italian). Thank you very much


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## trevorthetoad (Nov 5, 2012)

reptiles12 said:


> Because i will miss the clutches in such a huge cage and end up slowing down the reproduction by a lot.


Vents don't really take care of their offspring after depositing them in their pools, so the offspring will almost definitely die shortly after being deposited and will probably not survive to adulthood unless they are fed by the keeper. For this reason, you probably won't get many offspring growing up in the terrarium aside from _maybe_ the lucky few who cannibalize eggs and tadpoles deposited in their pools, or those that are lucky enough to have a steady supply of fruit flies and other bugs falling into their water. If you choose to pull the eggs to raise yourself, film canisters are a good option, but if you don't want to artificially raise the tadpoles, bromeliads in the terrarium wouldn't be a bad idea.


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## drutt (Oct 4, 2011)

trevorthetoad said:


> Vents don't really take care of their offspring after depositing them in their pools, so the offspring will almost definitely die shortly after being deposited and will probably not survive to adulthood unless they are fed by the keeper. For this reason, you probably won't get many offspring growing up in the terrarium aside from _maybe_ the lucky few who cannibalize eggs and tadpoles deposited in their pools, or those that are lucky enough to have a steady supply of fruit flies and other bugs falling into their water. If you choose to pull the eggs to raise yourself, film canisters are a good option, but if you don't want to artificially raise the tadpoles, bromeliads in the terrarium wouldn't be a bad idea.


Are you sure of this?.. I really dont know but I think I read something about that the female every 3 day lay one unfertilizied egg to the tad...I dont remember were I read it ...I havent been given anything to may tads and they been there for 3 weeks now and they seems to be alright...and much bigger...


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't think aggression will be an issue with so much space... IMO. Though I think I will do both when it comes to raising, I will try leaving and pulling so say when I get too many tads I can leave the clutches let them try to work it out. On the other hand, I picked up my 180g today!! I'm so excited to start the construction on it!


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