# Imitator Intermedius ______?



## onefstsnake (Jul 31, 2008)

I bought this little guy maybe 2 years ago. I was told he was probably from the P.Tan line, but I have my doubts after purchasing 3 from P.Tan himself.

The patern on the legs specifically makes me question the origin. Also the patern on his back/head is different as well. He also behaves slightly different than the other Intermedius I have and his call is somewhat different as well.

Pics of the male in question:













































The P.Tan Line Intermedius:


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

No clue what you got but that first frog is sick nasty!

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## onefstsnake (Jul 31, 2008)

The first 5 pics are of the same frog.


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

onefstsnake said:


> The first 5 pics are of the same frog.


Yes obviously, as you clearly stated that it was the frog in question...

My statement stands as "that first frog is sick nasty!".

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## onefstsnake (Jul 31, 2008)

Oh ok I see. Sorry it was kinda late. Doh! lol


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

onefstsnake said:


> Oh ok I see. Sorry it was kinda late. Doh! lol


No prob. Id love to get me one of whatever it is one day it sure is a sexy frog!

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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

IMO that could easily be a Phil Tan line intermedius, in my experience intermedius can vary quite a bit even from the same parents, but regardless of what line it is that is definately an intermedius


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## onefstsnake (Jul 31, 2008)

JakkBauer said:


> No prob. Id love to get me one of whatever it is one day it sure is a sexy frog!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Well once I get another female or two I hope to get some offspring.

So you may be in luck some day.


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

onefstsnake said:


> Well once I get another female or two I hope to get some offspring.
> 
> So you may be in luck some day.


:;Drool:: Wow, good luck! Keep me posted 

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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

That frog looks more like a Chazuta than Intermedius. You might want to verify before breeding with your Intermedius females -

justathot -
kristi


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## onefstsnake (Jul 31, 2008)

The single black "dot" on the head still makes me believe its an intermedius.
I thought that most imitators had a separation or two dots.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

guppygal said:


> That frog looks more like a Chazuta than Intermedius. You might want to verify before breeding with your Intermedius females -
> 
> justathot -
> kristi


Kristi, 

This is my understanding- 

Since there is no info on this frog, we can't just assume that it is a Chazuta. All other intermedius in the hobby came in from Germany via Uhern (these are the "Tarlton" line frogs) and Tor Linbo. Since there is no import/locale info on those frogs, it has been recommended that all intermedius (not Chazuta of course) be bred together.

Also, to the OP, Phil Tan line frogs are actually Uhern line (as are all Tarlton/Kelly/etc frogs, to my understanding there are two lines: Uhern and Linbo... for the sake of simplicity I won't include banded imitators here).

Considering the going rate of Chazutas two years ago, I'm inclined to believe that this is not a Chazuta imitator and decends from a prior EU intermedius import, which would make it either Uhern or Linbo. Many of Tor's frogs as well as Uhern's have been known to throw blue legs and are VERY variable (as an example, my breeding female Uhern intermedius looks exactly like a summersi or banded imitator). I would not be surprised in the least to find out that frog originally is Uhern line through Phil Tan.

Just some info I've gathered while reading, it's essentially third party info so take from it what you will.... but I would personally feel comfortable breeding that frog with the females if you trust the seller it came from, especially because that seller would have actually been losing money if he called it Tan line instead of Chazuta.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I was comparing it to other Chazuta images, especially the ones with blue bellies. My intermedius imitators are all black/copper colored, and they don't have the granulation on their legs.

If the frog is from a dubious vendor, then the op may have picked up a Chazuta rather than an Intermedius. My concern as a responsible (believe it or not) pdf owner is that maybe if the frog is a Chazuta, it shouldn't be bred with the Intermedius.

Goes to show ya how much I know ....


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

guppygal said:


> I was comparing it to other Chazuta images, especially the ones with blue bellies. My intermedius imitators are all black/copper colored, and they don't have the granulation on their legs.
> 
> If the frog is from a dubious vendor, then the op may have picked up a Chazuta rather than an Intermedius. My concern as a responsible (believe it or not) pdf owner is that maybe if the frog is a Chazuta, it shouldn't be bred with the Intermedius.
> 
> Goes to show ya how much I know ....


I wasn't knocking your dart keeping standards, and you do make a good point as Chazutas shouldn't be mixed with the other lines... I was just suggesting that since the frog was bought 2 years ago, I really doubt someone would have let a Chazuta go as a "Tan line" intermedius- Chazutas were much more expensive at that time, and were *barely* in the hobby until the UE imports 2010.

Neither of my breeders have any blue, but I've had a few baby intermedius come out with a whole lot of blue on the legs... not quite as much as the OP's pic, but they really are that variable.

Basically, it's really unlikely that it's a Chazuta frog due to the timeframe/price @ that time.... given the variability of intermedius, I personally think it is what it was sold as (Uhern) and would be comfortable breeding it with Uhern/Linbo/Nabors frogs. Just my personal opinion.



Some general intermedius info for everyone, this is from the TWI TMP for imitators regarding intermedius-



> The Intermedius population is composed of at least three lineages of frogs (Uhern/Kelley/Tarlton, Wolfe/Linbo, Nabors). The exact origins of these frogs from the wild are not known. However, given their similar phenotypes, it is possible they all originate from the same location. Additionally, the knowledge of the natural populations of R. imitator in the wild suggests that these frogs all come from a similar region (the area around Chazuta in the Huallaga Valley). Coupling the lack of definitive knowledge regarding the locality of these frogs along with their similar phenotypes to each other and a known population, the different lineages of Intermedius in the hobby should be mixed to maximize the genetic variability in the captive population.


and regarding Chazutas (this is from before the import obviously):


> Frogs from the Chazuta population are currently being bred by the Understory Enterprise program, but have not yet been made available to the private hobby. A small number of these frogs imported independently of the Understory project are currently being bred in North America. The Chazuta population is phenotypically similar to the hobby Intermedius, but since it has locality data associated with it and the Intermedius population does not, the two populations should not be mixed.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

See? I learn something new everyday. My I.imis have yet to produce offspring, tho the male is quite insistent about it. He has dots; she has dash marks. I'm sure I'll be looking for Morse code when the youngsters finally arrive. And I'll be inspecting their bellies thoroughly - with my luck, they'll end up in shorthand....

wait, that's a long way before most of y'all's time, so....nevermind 

k


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## onefstsnake (Jul 31, 2008)

I dont remember exactly what I paid for the frogs, but $150 for a pair comes to mind. 

How variable are the males calls between individuals?

I notice the male is question sounds more high pitch like a cricket, while the other males are louder and more of a fast clicking noise.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

onefstsnake said:


> I dont remember exactly what I paid for the frogs, but $150 for a pair comes to mind.
> 
> How variable are the males calls between individuals?
> 
> I notice the male is question sounds more high pitch like a cricket, while the other males are louder and more of a fast clicking noise.


I've heard both calls from my male at different times... sometimes his call sounds more like a lamasi, other times it's the usual imi call. 

Do they sound like the two imitator calls on this page?
MistKing Misting Systems by Jungle Hobbies Ltd


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## onefstsnake (Jul 31, 2008)

The first imitator sound is similar to my other males. The male in question sounds more like the second variablis but higher pitch and a longer call.


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