# worms



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Ok so I'm sure I've seen a topic like this somewhere but here goes... I have small white worms from 2mm-9mm in length and <1mm in width that I can see on the glass of the terrariums. I did not notice any of these before I introduced the springtail cultures to these tanks. They are feeding on the frogs’ excrement. Are these the same thing that I’ve seen people say they get in their spring cultures? Are these harmful to the frogs?? I’ve never had these problems before but then again I just started feeding springtails to the frogs. Any help is appreciated


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

some more info, they seem to be both on the glass and in the water feature, i have searched the forums and found a pic of a "grindal worm" that looks very simmilar. so all i really need to know is.. is this harmful to the frogs??? do i need to try and get rid of them or just leave it as it is?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

hey are not harmful to the frogs....grindal worms......if they get out of hand and get unsightly for you, you will probably have to tear down the viv and redo. I have had grindal worms in one of my beginner tanks a while back. I believe they come in from the plants and stuff we put in. One minor reason i bleach solution my plants before planting. I have had eggs covered in them even. they should look like threads on the glass and will crowd around feces, water areas, dead ff on the glass etc. decomposers. The egg clutches they were in, never suffered any harm. Someone once told me that it meant you had a healthy viv, not sure as to the factual nature of this. But in reponse, they wont harm the frogs. kristy


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ok thanks. and i have no idea how they got in there as i soak all live plants on a permoxyn soloution (very powerful oxidizer) and all non living ornimentation, is boiled dipped in permoxyn, and then either microwaved or baked depending on the object's size. seems like the harder i try to create sterile enviroments the more issues i have with little stuff like this.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> ok thanks. and i have no idea how they got in there as i soak all live plants on a permoxyn soloution (very powerful oxidizer) and all non living ornimentation, is boiled dipped in permoxyn, and then either microwaved or baked depending on the object's size. seems like the harder i try to create sterile enviroments the more issues i have with little stuff like this.


something i never heard of. what is permoxyn? maybe a yechnical word i have heard of? hope it has nothing to do with nolvasan....which is dangerous to amphibians....but not reptiles. try the bleach solution method. i am a huge germ phobiac so i bleach plants in one cup bleach to ten cups water..i dont do it for long maybe 15-30 seconds....i'm not sure if this is long enough...but then i rinse very very well in tap water and dry off with a paper towel. before doing this i make sure all the soil on the roots has been washed off. i rinse and scub the cork bark...bake at 250 for 2 hours and 350 for another hour....smells good in the home actually, or maybe that because i'm from way up north lol....same for the drift wood...i boil my leaves or i wash and bake them. what are you using as substrate? kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> ok thanks. and i have no idea how they got in there as i soak all live plants on a permoxyn soloution (very powerful oxidizer) and all non living ornimentation, is boiled dipped in permoxyn, and then either microwaved or baked depending on the object's size. seems like the harder i try to create sterile enviroments the more issues i have with little stuff like this.


ok just read about it...who gave you that info that it works? I personally would not use it and go with the bleach solution method. That is probably where your problem stands. its not killing the grindal worms that hitch hiked in my opinion. nor would it kill any other thing like diseases nthat can be hamful to our darts?? kristy


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i told me it works. i use it to disinfect aquarium plants. which is one of its common uses. its a potassium permanganate soloution. and ive used it to dip even the most sensitive (scaleless) fish. with no ill effects that i have noticed.i also rinse the soloution off thoroughly. i dont like using bleach soloutions. it can burn fragile plants and do damage to the root system. (even in a very diluted state).


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> i told me it works. i use it to disinfect aquarium plants. which is one of its common uses. its a potassium permanganate soloution. and ive used it to dip even the most sensitive (scaleless) fish. with no ill effects that i have noticed.i also rinse the soloution off thoroughly. i dont like using bleach soloutions. it can burn fragile plants and do damage to the root system. (even in a very diluted state).


one thing i dont think your solution will do is thouroughly disinfect plants from and pest/diseases...mosses are a different story.....i know it wont disinfect a viv either, we're not talking fish here, we are talking darts also....the only thing that can disinfect plants thourougly from harmful pathogens and from things like the worms you were worried about is some sort of bleach solution, now there is another solution that works just as well and i believe it involves vinegar, not as harsh....._check this article that mack quoted from patty slayton:
for disinfecting non-porous surfaces (glass etc) check out this article that patty slayton posted: 

I found some more detailed information on the use of bleach as a disinfectant. Here I am quoting from the letters to the editor section of Microbe, June, 2006--The News Magazine of the American Society for Microbiology, vol 1 # 6. 

This was from Norman Miner, MicroChem Laboratory, Euless, TX. 

"Cecil H. and Michele H. Fox point out the disinfecting properties of inexpensive bleach (5% sodium hypochlorite) as an important germicide to help control the spread of influenza (or any other communicable virus, bacteria or fungus) (Microbe, April 2006, p. 159). A few more details might help for the effective use of diluted bleach as an antiseptic and disinfectant. Bleach is sold as a stable alkaline solution with a pH value of about 11 or 12. At this alkaline pH value, virtually all of the bleach is in the form of the chlorite ion (OCl-). At an acidic pH value of about 6.0 to 6.8, 90% of the bleach is in the form of hypochlorous acid (HOCl). Hypochlorous acid is 80 to 200 times more antimicrobial than the chlorite ion. Thus a simple formula to prepare an effective antimicrobial dilution of bleach is to add 2.0 oz of concentrated bleach to one gallon of tap water, and then add 2.0 oz of 5% distilled white cooking vinegar, also inexpensive and commonly available, to lower the pH of the bleach to about 6.0. This will yield about 800 ppm free available chlorine from hypochlorous acid. Use this acidified bleach in well-ventilated areas as there will be a mild odor of chlorine. The acidified bleach must be prepared fresh daily. Protect eyes and mucous membranes. Never add ammonia to bleach. Follow the safety directions as found on the bleach label. "_

on a side note, most of the plants we use in our vivariums are not aquarium plants with the exception of a few like java moss etc. kristy


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ok so im not trying to sound hostile (so dont take it that way) the issue wasnt the technique i use to disinfect my plants. however i dont see how the treatment of aquatic vs terrestrial plants would differ. KMnO4 (potassium permanganate) is used in a number of applications, infact if you use indian almond leaves in your tank... the standard disinfectant used is none other than KMnO4 (potassium permanganate) it is used in the treatment of infections in both humans and animals. so im pretty sure its frog safe. it is also used to in water treatment. im sure that this is an adequite alternitive to a bleach or bleach based disinfectant. and im pretty sure the worms came in with the springtails. i too am a germaphobe, so i understand the need to thoroughly clean everything. i just dont like bleach.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> ok so im not trying to sound hostile (so dont take it that way) the issue wasnt the technique i use to disinfect my plants. however i dont see how the treatment of aquatic vs terrestrial plants would differ. KMnO4 (potassium permanganate) is used in a number of applications, infact if you use indian almond leaves in your tank... the standard disinfectant used is none other than KMnO4 (potassium permanganate) it is used in the treatment of infections in both humans and animals. so im pretty sure its frog safe. it is also used to in water treatment. im sure that this is an adequite alternitive to a bleach or bleach based disinfectant. and im pretty sure the worms came in with the springtails. i too am a germaphobe, so i understand the need to thoroughly clean everything. i just dont like bleach.


dont feel you are not being hostile, dont worry. :wink: bleach seems to be the ONLY effective thing against chytrid or coccidia and not to mention parasites......so your method i believe wont work for that. How do grindal worms come in with springtails? where did you get them? well then again i get my springtails from joshsfrogs and have never once noticed a grindal worm or from jungle box and he uses a different method but is precarious about germs as i am. I believe they are hitchhikers in plants. well, anyhow, they are harmless to the frogs. mine would even catch one and eat one from time to time. so that answers your posts question. sorry if i sounded like i was being hostile. in no way was it meant that way :wink: I too hate bleach, in fact, my hands smell like it right now cuz i just spent two and a half hours disinfecting quarantines lol. I will leave it at this. Just trying to offer advice on disinfection was all. no hostility taken or given. promise. kristy


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

thanks for the help kristy.  i have some moss that needs to be disinfected to go in the blue and bronze tank so perhaps i will try the bleach with that.  about the worms, i believe they came in with the springs only because the worms seemed to appear only after they were introduced. i ordered them from josh's frogs as well. and i have also ordered 2 different ff cultures... both became mite infested after a while, while all my other cultures remain mite free. (not trying to give bad representation of josh's frogs) this has just been my experience.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> thanks for the help kristy.  i have some moss that needs to be disinfected to go in the blue and bronze tank so perhaps i will try the bleach with that.  about the worms, i believe they came in with the springs only because the worms seemed to appear only after they were introduced. i ordered them from josh's frogs as well. and i have also ordered 2 different ff cultures... both became mite infested after a while, while all my other cultures remain mite free. (not trying to give bad representation of josh's frogs) this has just been my experience.


moss is hard to disinfect. i have had no luck disinfecting moss, just plants in general. it may kill it. i have ordered plenty from joshsfrogs and believe him to be at the top concerning springtails and mitefree cultures. perhaps it is the way you are setting them up...the ff cultures that is. you should have all vents closed. they should be in an area where they are laid on mite eliminator sprayed paper towels or mite-free paper...also cleaning around the area they are in helps as well. i like to throw out 1 month old cultures and make new ones once a week to keep up always adding some back-up cultures. joshsfrogs has some of the best cultures both springtails and ff cultures i have ever received. If there were worms in the springtail cultures, don't you think you'd see them? kristy


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

again im not questioning the quality of josh'sfrogs products. the ff cultures arrived mite free and developed mites after they matured. the heydei at 2.5 weeks, and the melanogaster at 1 month +. i assume the mites attacked these cultures through the tops which seem to have larger holes in the fiber. (i use coffee filters) all the coffee filter cultures do great and i have had no problems. i also clean out old cultures about once a month.and make new ones about once every week and a half. i'll have to try the mite paper.  i dont know about the worms, like i said im assuming they are from the spring culture because thats about the time they showed up, and i have found others reporting that they get these worms in the cultures. it could totally be something else, i really have no idea. all of my frogs are in great shape eat well and show no signs of stress. if the worms arent a harm to the frogs i can live with them. no use in tearing down an enclosure do get rid of a pest that doenst cause harm to the frogs.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> again im not questioning the quality of josh'sfrogs products. the ff cultures arrived mite free and developed mites after they matured. the heydei at 2.5 weeks, and the melanogaster at 1 month +. i assume the mites attacked these cultures through the tops which seem to have larger holes in the fiber. (i use coffee filters) all the coffee filter cultures do great and i have had no problems. i also clean out old cultures about once a month.and make new ones about once every week and a half. i'll have to try the mite paper.  i dont know about the worms, like i said im assuming they are from the spring culture because thats about the time they showed up, and i have found others reporting that they get these worms in the cultures. it could totally be something else, i really have no idea. all of my frogs are in great shape eat well and show no signs of stress. if the worms arent a harm to the frogs i can live with them. no use in tearing down an enclosure do get rid of a pest that doenst cause harm to the frogs.


just as for the sake of this discussion, i thouroughly checked all of my springtail cultures, both the temperate and the tropical variety from joshsfrogs. no grindal worms. I am 99% sure they did not come from there and came from another source. kristy


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

well i checked my cultures of springs and it seems that they too have mites. again all of my other cultures are fine. what gets me though is that the springs are in sealed containers. but the mites have got quite the foothold in them. any way to get rid of the mites in a spring culture other than throw them out?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

mites in joshsfrogs springtail cultures? I have had my cultures from joshsfrogs sitting on a shelf with no mite paper and i cant see one mite and i know there are no grindal worms in them either. I have both the tropical and the temperate variety. or is it a springtail culture on some coconutfiber from someone else?? kristy


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

nope its from joshsfrogs, and its on charcoal. i cant see any worms but definately mites. all over! i dont know. i am worried because i drained water off of the cultures into the tanks last night.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> nope its from joshsfrogs, and its on charcoal. i cant see any worms but definately mites. all over! i dont know. i am worried because i drained water off of the cultures into the tanks last night.


no worries, the frogs wont die from the mites. they arent like reptile mites. i suggest you email josh these concerns and he can answer all of the questions you have as he is very good at returning emails promptly and will give you the best advice about his springtail cultures. i dont want to be speaking for him, other than i have had a lot of positive experiences from josh. just email him, and post what he recommends or thinks about the grindal worms. sound fair? kristy :wink:


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

like i said i have no problems with josh'sfrogs and infact im planning on ordering a pum from him in the near future. iam a reasonable person and im not pointing fingers and i have heard nothing but good things about josh'sfrogs. even if the mites came from him (which im not saying they did) im not upset. thanks for all the help by the way kristy it seems like i can count on you bieng here to answer my Qs


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

mite just seem to find springs regardless who u buy them from , just feed them to the frogs they love them.
i get worms from time to time in my springs too , it happens more so if very wet
as gross as the mite and worms are i personally dont worry about them , they have cause no harm here
craig


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

thanks im just gonna let things run thier course. perhaps when i get the ventilation fans in i can lower humidity and get rid of the worms. one of my tanks has 15% or so less humidity than the others and it has no problems with the worms.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> thanks im just gonna let things run thier course. perhaps when i get the ventilation fans in i can lower humidity and get rid of the worms. one of my tanks has 15% or so less humidity than the others and it has no problems with the worms.


always here to help the best i can. i didnt see any worms in my cultures like i said. they are natural decomposers anyhow and will cause no harm to your darts nor the mites. I venture to guess that he would just say the darts will just eat them and it is perfectly fine. kristy :wink:  

on a sidenote: make sure you do your homework. not sure how much experience you have with darts, but pums are by no means a beginner dart IMO. I don't even have any. I want to make sure my research is up to par, which i believe it is, but still hesitant to buy my first pums :wink:


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i have a fair ammount of experiance with darts and pumilios. I had a beautiful blue jeans female for a number of years(these are notoriously difficult to maintain and most seem to die before they can even be put into a permanent enclosure) that is until an unfortunate accident invloving a friend and a tank hood that tragically ended her life. I have however had a substantial break from the hobby and springtails are a new thing for me. I used to feed melanogaster only, and I guess I was lucky because until my re-entering the hobby recently, I never had problems with mites or worms. My man creek female is fat and happy and feeds regularly.I even see her waiting for me to put food into the tank sometimes. I am not worried about the pums at all. They are absoloutely not a beginner frog in my oppinion but I have never had health issues with ones I've owned.
thank you for the concern.
kristy; You should consider getting some more hadry variety of pum if you are interested. You seem knoledgeable and I have a feeling that it would be no problem for you. If you would like I can keep you posted as to the man creek brreding once I get the $ for the male and i would be happy to keep you in mind if I get froglets.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

james67 said:


> i have a fair ammount of experiance with darts and pumilios. I had a beautiful blue jeans female for a number of years(these are notoriously difficult to maintain and most seem to die before they can even be put into a permanent enclosure) that is until an unfortunate accident invloving a friend and a tank hood that tragically ended her life. I have however had a substantial break from the hobby and springtails are a new thing for me. I used to feed melanogaster only, and I guess I was lucky because until my re-entering the hobby recently, I never had problems with mites or worms. My man creek female is fat and happy and feeds regularly.I even see her waiting for me to put food into the tank sometimes. I am not worried about the pums at all. They are absoloutely not a beginner frog in my oppinion but I have never had health issues with ones I've owned.
> thank you for the concern.
> kristy; You should consider getting some more hadry variety of pum if you are interested. You seem knoledgeable and I have a feeling that it would be no problem for you. If you would like I can keep you posted as to the man creek brreding once I get the $ for the male and i would be happy to keep you in mind if I get froglets.


yes pums are my next venture. I would really love some right now, just waiting until i have all my quarantines cleared out and the darts in permeanent vivs and then i will probably buy some. Thank you for keeping me in mind. kristy


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