# I Love Clay!!



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

My days of Great Stuff and Silicone are over. This tank was done start to finish in 24 hours. I still need a few plants for the bottom.


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Clay is pretty sweet. And all natural as well.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

jubjub47 said:


> Clay is pretty sweet. And all natural as well.



Yeah I mixed a lot of milled sphangum moss with it so it should green up nicely. I wish I used this 20 tanks ago


----------



## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

What's the method? Is there a thread on it? Looks cool.


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

very nice, i keep meaning to work with it, but have not gotten around to ti yet.


----------



## tommy2 (Feb 13, 2007)

yes I would be interested in the method as well.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

There are a few threads here, but I can' seem to locate them for some reason


----------



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Good to have another convert. 

Wait...is that an organic-based substrate? Go clay all the way!


----------



## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

What you use? Tell us how you did it. Calcium bentonite?


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

I used Sodium Bentonite. To do a background on a 18x18x24 I filled 3 32oz containers with Sodium bentonite into a 5 gallon bucket. Added water and mixed with cement mixer on drill. I mixed until it had the texture of spackle. I then added 3 32 oz containers with Peat moss, added it to the mixture along with a 1/2 bag of milled sphangum (my choice) and mixed again until it was thick as clay and then I just pressed it on the glass and thats it. You can plant as soon as its done. You stick the stalons of the broms right into the clay. 

You can use unscented kitty litter as well, but that you let soak in water overnight


----------



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

nice Jeff. how heavy is the clay?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeffr said:


> I used Sodium Bentonite. To do a background on a 18x18x24 I filled 3 32oz containers with Sodium bentonite into a 5 gallon bucket. Added water and mixed with cement mixer on drill. I mixed until it had the texture of spackle. I then added 3 32 oz containers with Peat moss, added it to the mixture along with a 1/2 bag of milled sphangum (my choice) and mixed again until it was thick as clay and then I just pressed it on the glass and thats it. You can plant as soon as its done. You stick the stalons of the broms right into the clay.
> 
> You can use unscented kitty litter as well, but that you let soak in water overnight


What I do when I have to mix up test batches of clay is to mix it as a much wetter slurry as it is easier to mix. I then place a couple of large rubbermaid tubs on the floor and several large screen cage lids ontop of the tubs. I then line the screen with several sheets of newspaper and pour the slurry into the lids so they drip into the rubbermaids. I check them every couple of hours until it is the consistency I want to use, turn the lids over onto a piece of tarp, remove the paper and take a spackle knife to it. I find it much easier to get an even distribution of the organics into the clay when using small pieces of organic materials. 
In addition, if you pay attention to the ingredients in the colors you can tint the clay.. 

Ed


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Ed said:


> What I do when I have to mix up test batches of clay is to mix it as a much wetter slurry as it is easier to mix. I then place a couple of large rubbermaid tubs on the floor and several large screen cage lids ontop of the tubs. I then line the screen with several sheets of newspaper and pour the slurry into the lids so they drip into the rubbermaids. I check them every couple of hours until it is the consistency I want to use, turn the lids over onto a piece of tarp, remove the paper and take a spackle knife to it. I find it much easier to get an even distribution of the organics into the clay when using small pieces of organic materials.
> In addition, if you pay attention to the ingredients in the colors you can tint the clay..
> 
> Ed


Redart clay will tint it right Ed?


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

stemcellular said:


> nice Jeff. how heavy is the clay?


The tank itself has some weight to it now, not too bad. Iwent about 2 inches thick, thicker in spots just to give it look, and some landings for the frogs

Beth and Kristy guided me


----------



## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Red art clay will tint it. Be careful because a little bit of red art clay will change the color quiet fast. It should also take on the color of the organics you put into it.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Just did my first kitty litter clay background. Love it!


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i have done 13 vivs since. Half calc bentonite vibs half sodium bentnite. i have a couple more vivs to do but i was able to do 13 vivs in 7.5 days approx LOL. blame it on the nesting and the sponsors got a lot of plant purchases from em needless to say. three i use for my tree frogs and the rest so far for my darts. AWESOME!! will never go back to GS. plants are rooting and growing now. just happy to have almost everyone on misting systems and out of quarantine. a few to go then my racks will be topped off with no room for now.... 

LOVE IT! its so simple, safe, and so easy to plant! 

glad i could help jeff. i had a lot of questions too from members that helped me here before i started but after the 1st one its simple as pie


----------



## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

Turned out nicely! I really really need to try this out.. but then again I might get carried away and build a tank a day. lol


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeffr said:


> Redart clay will tint it right Ed?


Yep. 

Ed


----------



## Martydart (May 14, 2010)

Kristy, are you saying you used 1/2/ calcium bentonite and 1/2 sodium bentonite as your mix? Is this the same as Jeff's mix? Picutes please?


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Martydart said:


> Kristy, are you saying you used 1/2/ calcium bentonite and 1/2 sodium bentonite as your mix? Is this the same as Jeff's mix? Picutes please?


I think she did half her tanks with sodium and half with calcium


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Ed said:


> What I do when I have to mix up test batches of clay is to mix it as a much wetter slurry as it is easier to mix. I then place a couple of large rubbermaid tubs on the floor and several large screen cage lids ontop of the tubs. I then line the screen with several sheets of newspaper and pour the slurry into the lids so they drip into the rubbermaids. I check them every couple of hours until it is the consistency I want to use, turn the lids over onto a piece of tarp, remove the paper and take a spackle knife to it. I find it much easier to get an even distribution of the organics into the clay when using small pieces of organic materials.
> In addition, if you pay attention to the ingredients in the colors you can tint the clay..
> 
> Ed


Ed with this method are you mixing your clay with anything else. Would this method work using clay as my substrate? Except letting it dry over the tarp and runnning it back over the screen, breaking it up into small particles


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeffr said:


> Ed with this method are you mixing your clay with anything else. Would this method work using clay as my substrate? Except letting it dry over the tarp and runnning it back over the screen, breaking it up into small particles


I add peat moss, or fine milled sphagnum and/or cocofiber now. I'm still playing around with amounts. 
When using it for substrates, I push it through the screen and let it dry enough that I can break it up further, rewet it until it can be pushed through the screen and repeat. After that I place it into the enclosure and add the microfauna. 

Ed


----------



## Lunar Gecko (May 7, 2010)

O.O
Im very very interested in this process! I have 14 tanks I plan on redoing this summer. I want them to be as organic as possible.

Few questions.

1) how long do these tanks take to dry?

2) When its dry is there any chance a heaver animal could re mold it buy digging or its weight? Is this just for frogs? Basically is it structural sound enough for geckos?

3) Will it hold up cork bark thats set into it as well as larger sticks like how the GS does?

4) Ive searched and searched. I cant find any DIY/ step-by-step threads on this method... maybe I'm using the wrong terms?


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Few questions.

1) how long do these tanks take to dry? *You never let it dry. You want it to stay moist*


2) When its dry is there any chance a heaver animal could re mold it buy digging or its weight? Is this just for frogs? Basically is it structural sound enough for geckos? *It will support Geckos but don't Geckos need a lower humidity? If it dries it will start flaking and falling off*

3) Will it hold up cork bark thats set into it as well as larger sticks like how the GS does? *According to Ed it will hold driftwood and cork to the back of the glass*

4) Ive searched and searched. I cant find any DIY/ step-by-step threads on this method... maybe I'm using the wrong terms?* I remember reading a few on here a while back. I couldn't find them either. *


----------



## Lunar Gecko (May 7, 2010)

jeffr said:


> Few questions.
> 
> 1) how long do these tanks take to dry? *You never let it dry. You want it to stay moist*
> 
> ...


OKay. The geckos I keep need a humidity range of 80% two times a day with a drop down to 50% between misting. You think this maybe too dry for this? 
Maybe I'll just have to wait till I do my vampire crab viv before I try this out. Ive already started the 3 frog tanks I plan on doing.... for now.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Lunar Gecko said:


> OKay. The geckos I keep need a humidity range of 80% two times a day with a drop down to 50% between misting. You think this maybe too dry for this?
> Maybe I'll just have to wait till I do my vampire crab viv before I try this out. Ive already started the 3 frog tanks I plan on doing.... for now.



Ed can give you a better answer to this.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I would think that having a tank full of damp clay would keep the humidity up. Just finished planting mine so I don't have good humidity readings yet.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeffr said:


> Ed can give you a better answer to this.


I haven't bothered to get readings during the course of the day as most of the commonly available items that track humidity are pretty inaccurate and I haven't got the time or the money to invest in some data loggers. 

On a different note, I would heavily question such narrow husbandry requirements... 


Ed


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

What are the best commercial sources for this type of clay? I mean like brand names and stores... I hear all the time "unscented kitty litter" but I often wonder if some have additives that would be harmful and therefore shouldn't be used or if they are all the same. I'm hoping that some people in this thread can share what types/kinds of products they bought and where they got them from...


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I bought the stuff in the pics. I'll be calling the company tomorrow to find out exactly what's in it. It can be purchased from Food Lion.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

If you have a pond supply store near you, try there. Its used as a natural sealer for ponds.


----------



## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

How does the clay not get soggy and run down or erode when it's misted? Is it necessary to grow moss on it to keep it intact? Maybe I just need to see one of these tanks in person to really understand it.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Once the clay sets, it does not sag. There are some pictures in this thread of how well it can grow in under good light (this is a constant dripwall) 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/33471-red-clay-substrate-2.html
Ed


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

sbreland said:


> What are the best commercial sources for this type of clay? I mean like brand names and stores... I hear all the time "unscented kitty litter" but I often wonder if some have additives that would be harmful and therefore shouldn't be used or if they are all the same. I'm hoping that some people in this thread can share what types/kinds of products they bought and where they got them from...


I have made a 40g, 30, 20L and 2 -15g backgrounds with "Premium Choice All Natual Unsented Scoopable Cat Litter" Ingredient list: "ground clay" 16LBS from PetSmart. The 40 gallon I have used for the last 8 months as a plant grow out tank and has aged very well. The other tanks I have made more recently, and have yet to house frogs. I followed ideas from Ed and have attached cork bark as well as tree fern sections (thanks Ed!) and both have worked out well so far. As others have stated I am hopeful to leave great stuff behind. 

Sally


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I tempered my clay with peat moss and coco fiber. About 50% clay to 25% each, peat and coco fiber.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here are a couple pics, before planting and after planting. This one was set up just to try out the clay and to have a place to keep extra broms. See the small piece of cork in the background? I just smooshed it in and edged it with clay. I added a larger piece later, on the right hand side. Want to see how well it will stay up on the clay.


----------



## Lunar Gecko (May 7, 2010)

> I haven't bothered to get readings during the course of the day as most of the commonly available items that track humidity are pretty inaccurate and I haven't got the time or the money to invest in some data loggers.
> 
> On a different note, I would heavily question such narrow husbandry requirements...


ED- I agree the requirements are very narrow but like most hobbies there is a set standard that seems to have the best out comes. Sometimes the standards do need to be tested.... When they are kept too dry they have problems shedding and even gravid females are more likely to become egg bound. When its too wet the seta on the toes can become inflamed and you run the risk of skin infections. Unfortunately I have never seen any recordings of exactly HOW wet or dry the tanks have been before such problems arose.
Yes, from my experance they can be kept at higher humidity better than lower. I would be fine with a drop down into the 60-70% range and not the 50% because I dont think it would cause too much of an issue as long as I kept an eye out. 
Sorry for the OT jaunt. Ed brought up a good point. 


Does anyone have a measured humidity/moisture in the clay tanks? I would love to know if 60-70% would still be safe to keep the clay wet.


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I only mist lightly every other day and my clay stays just fine. I'm not sure of the humidity since I typically don't track it.


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

srrrio said:


> I have made a 40g, 30, 20L and 2 -15g backgrounds with "Premium Choice All Natual Unsented Scoopable Cat Litter" Ingredient list: "ground clay" 16LBS from PetSmart. The 40 gallon I have used for the last 8 months as a plant grow out tank and has aged very well. The other tanks I have made more recently, and have yet to house frogs. I followed ideas from Ed and have attached cork bark as well as tree fern sections (thanks Ed!) and both have worked out well so far. As others have stated I am hopeful to leave great stuff behind.
> 
> Sally


Thanks Sally and everyone else... I think I'll have to give this a try...


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

sbreland said:


> Thanks Sally and everyone else... I think I'll have to give this a try...


try this place, $15 for a 50 pound bag I think. If you use kitty litter I suggest you let it soak in water overnight prior to adding peat so its fully hydrated. This is what I've read 

Sturgis Materials Sodium Bentonite


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

I made another tank yesterday.I figured I'd take pics and show the steps

This was done using sodium bentonite. Its pretty much a 50/50 mix with Peat Moss

3 32 oz is enough to do an 18x18x24













Add enough water to go 2 inches over your clay and mix












You want it as thick as spackle and not too lumpy. Once you're there I added 3 32 ounce containers of peat moss and mix again











You should see it start to thicken up once mixed











At this point I throw in a 1/2 bag of milled sphag (this is optional)











You know when its ixed and thick enough that you can grab a handful,turn your hand upside down and it doesn't fall apart











Then you just slap it on your back glass and press. I like it at least 2 inches thick in most spots











30 minutes after start time











You can start planting now. Just stick the brom stalon right into the clay background





















And less than 2 hours after start


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I decided to test the humidity. The last time I misted the tank was on 6/13. So today, 5 days later, I checked the humidity with one of those Zilla gadgets. The tank looked damp and humid. The gauge gave a reading of 90% and then went to _ _ _. 

Tank is not completely sealed. There are 2 pieces of glass sitting on the top but there is a gap between them.


----------



## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Thanks Jeff for the post. I think am going to try to use your method for my next background. Hopefully all those broms you put in that tank will be put to good use.


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ill have to get more pics of the dart frog vivs but i did my tree frogs ones as well in this. yes jeff was right...i did half my tanks sodium bentonite and half with calc bent with red art clay. I really dont have a preference. 

Here are some pics. I have much better pics of some great vivs. Plants are from NEherp and dartfrogdepot as well as a few from lowes such as simple vines etc. and i think i had some left overs from antone TBH 

variabilis viv before it has grown in...










annae tree frog viv 

hard to get in one shot its very big and hosues 5.4 










mossy tree frog viv








2.1 milk frog viv









i did 13 vivs in a week or two. must be me nesting since im 29 weeks along preparing for baby. I have 3 dart frog vivs to do this weekend for my terribillis (yellow), BYH's, and vanzolinni. 

Had to wait so i could get the more powerful msiting system for the darts as i have 18-20 nozzles hooked up already 2 nozzles per viv on a rack system. 

i know i have more pics somewhere but my photobucket needs organizing  Most of the vivs are all dart frogs on their own misting system. Tree frogs on separate system as i'm wayyy OCD LOL! 


glad me and beth could sway ya into clay jeff!! i will never go back to GS getting a viv fully done planted and seeded in 2 hours is super ideal to me!  looks great jeff!


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Awesome Vivs Kristy. Thank you for showing me the way


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I gave up on backgrounds several vivs ago. Never liked silicone or foam. I think I'll have to give this a try. Are there any techniques yet for building depth into the backgrounds? I don't like foams because of the trapped gases, but it dries fairly quickly, creates depth, and is very lightweight.

Great thread everyone! Keep the pics coming too!! We may have to elevate this and some others to Stickydom.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

pl259 said:


> I gave up on backgrounds several vivs ago. Never liked silicone or foam. I think I'll have to give this a try. Are there any techniques yet for building depth into the backgrounds? I don't like foams because of the trapped gases, but it dries fairly quickly, creates depth, and is very lightweight.
> 
> Great thread everyone! Keep the pics coming too!! We may have to elevate this and some others to Stickydom.


Once the background is covered. You can build out sections with more clay for depth. The camera doesn't pick up depth too well, but in the 1st one I did I tried to make vines by rolling clay separate and sticking it to the background. I also built up sections as well in both vivs, and made ledges. This never dries, you want to keep it moist. I started sticking broms in it withing 30 seconds of finishing the background


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I'd like to keep it lightweight if I can. Building out a background 6" or more is typical for what I'm looking for. I like the idea of adding clean organics. They help keep things together and lessen the weight.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

The base layer is minimum 2 inches and I build out from there in spots for depth. It does add weight though


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

What about building a "skeleton" of eggcrate like you use for a false bottom to create depth and structure. The clay should slid into the holes on the crate and once completely covered in should hold nicely. I think you could build some SICK ledges and mounds this way... in fact I will probably be trying it when I get ready to do this unless someone has a great reason why not to.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Clay.....Bill Clay....


----------



## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

sbreland said:


> What about building a "skeleton" of eggcrate like you use for a false bottom to create depth and structure. The clay should slid into the holes on the crate and once completely covered in should hold nicely. I think you could build some SICK ledges and mounds this way... in fact I will probably be trying it when I get ready to do this unless someone has a great reason why not to.


You could use foam. Similar to making the fake rocks. This would give you the thickness you want and also the design possibilities. This way you wouldn't have to worry about the clay possibly going all the way through the eggcrate, in other words would not be hollow. It would also still be light weight, compared to same thickness in clay.

Dave


----------



## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

Found some 100% clay kitty litter at Walmart, it's their house brand "Special Kitty" LOL one version is just clay, the other is clay + fragrance. a 25 lb bag cost $2.98. I haven't worked with it yet or have opened the bag so I can't speak about how well it works.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

how is this stuff for rooting things like ficus and creeping fig? I always hated finding creative ways to pin that stuff to a background before it takes hold.


----------



## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

carola1155 said:


> how is this stuff for rooting things like ficus and creeping fig? I always hated finding creative ways to pin that stuff to a background before it takes hold.


It is very easy to mount stuff on. You can press the roots straight in and it should take hold.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I finally remembered to call the folks about the cat litter. Here's a link to my post with pics of the litter.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/54887-i-love-clay-4.html


I heard back about the clay today. Unfortunately it was a voice mail message and not an email message. I was hoping I could just copy/pasta.

It seems that my request was forwarded to the producers of the product and then floated around until it landed on one poor guy. By the time it got to him, the question was only "is it safe for amphibians."

Here are some of the things he said:

1) He personally knows a couple people who use it to get rid of mites on their snakes. They said it works well and he has heard of no ill effects.

2) It is used as an additive in pet food and bird feed. No reports of any problems.

3) It contains 2 types of clay. He listed them but I couldn't make it out on the message.

4) He believes it would be safe for amphibians. Cannot think of a reason it wouldn't be.

5) It is produced by Bennett Minerals (and he announced himself as being employed with Bennett Minerals). They have a website with more info.

website: Bennett Mineral - Home


From the website: Bennett Mineral - DiaBond®/GeoBond®

Diabond®/GeoBond® absorbs over 120% its weight in moisture, improves conditioning, pelleting and flow through performance in feed mills.

What is Diabond®/GeoBond®?

Diabond®/GeoBond® is a natural Miocene Diatomaceous Clay consisting of diatomite(65-70%) and montmorillonite(30-35%). After mining it is further processed using an exclusive wood burning method to enhance its active properties. The resultant product is a grey ordorless granular material which has a density of about 40 lbs per cubic foot. Chemical composition is as follows:


Silicon Dioxide
SiO2
70%

Aluminum Oxide
Al2O3
10%

Iron Oxide
Fe2O3
4%

Potassium Superoxide
K2O
2%

Magnesium Oxide
MgO
1.5%

Calcium Oxide
CaO
1%

Sodium, Phosphorus, Sulphur, and L.O.I
Na, P, S, and L.O.I
~11.5% 


So what to you guys think about this clay?


----------



## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

I've heard of diatomaceous earth being used as flea repellent, the sharp little diatom exoskeletons get between the ****** of the fleas carapace and kill it I guess. I wonder if it might have the same effect on springs. Other than that it looks good, but not a lot of calcium.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for the response. Interesting about the 'anti-flea' properties. Hmmm...

Anyone else with opinion about this clay, before I sacrifice my beloved frogs to it?


----------



## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

Thank GOD! This forum is so sweet. The GS and coco background in the 56col housing my terrors is fine...and although natural backgrounds is the only way to go...I swore I would NEVER do it by this method again. Looks like I don't have to....

I have a 125 that I plan to set up to house a helmeted water toad. The background (and possibly both sides) will be the only planted part of the tank, and will stop about 8" from the bottom. The bottom will be all water and gravel. Kind of a paludarium, I suppose. I plan to use a makeshift UG filter, along with manual turd fishing...as these things get real big.

If anyone has cautions for using the clay background method in this set-up...I'd appreciate hearing them.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Smashtoad said:


> If anyone has cautions for using the clay background method in this set-up...I'd appreciate hearing them.


*caution* you may never want to make any other type of background again


----------



## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

What about for streams/waterfalls? Surely these clay mixture will turn to mush if constantly being submerged or have running water over them. 

I was wanting to put a slow trickeling water feature to grow a moss carpet wall, but I dont see the clay holding up. Any suggestions on this, or links to threads that have clay backgrounds with waterfalls?


----------



## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

GRIMM said:


> What about for streams/waterfalls? Surely these clay mixture will turn to mush if constantly being submerged or have running water over them.
> 
> I was wanting to put a slow trickeling water feature to grow a moss carpet wall, but I dont see the clay holding up. Any suggestions on this, or links to threads that have clay backgrounds with waterfalls?


Ed ran a drip wall over his clay and I don't think he ran into too many problems. Here are some links to threads that have pics of his tank.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/33471-red-clay-substrate.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/55182-calcium-bentonite-3.html


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

frogface said:


> Anyone else with opinion about this clay, before I sacrifice my beloved frogs to it?


It's perfectly safe and chemically close to bentonites.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

johnc said:


> It's perfectly safe and chemically close to bentonites.


Thank you! Got some soaking in a bucket and big plans for what to do with it.


----------



## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

i just found this thread and saved it. i am getting ready to start on my 180 gallon tank build. i originally was going to do the 6 foot back with flat pieces of cork bark mixed with pieces of tree fern panels. but i think i am going to use about 30% cork bark pieces and 70% clay. 
concern #1... i cannot possibly lay the tank on its back to apply the clay background. is everyone else applying it vertically or horizontally?
concern#2... i see where jeffr and ed both have said they simply pack the clay around driftwood pieces. i have only seen pics of small driftwood pieces. with a 6 foot by 2 foot back i am looking for some larger size chunks o' wood. i guess i know the answer but have to ask. for my frogs safety i really should silicone it in place. agreed??

i see mention of red art. what is it? a coloring compound of some sort.

thanks for the great thread

AG


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

angry gary said:


> i just found this thread and saved it. i am getting ready to start on my 180 gallon tank build. i originally was going to do the 6 foot back with flat pieces of cork bark mixed with pieces of tree fern panels. but i think i am going to use about 30% cork bark pieces and 70% clay.
> concern #1... i cannot possibly lay the tank on its back to apply the clay background. is everyone else applying it vertically or horizontally?
> concern#2... i see where jeffr and ed both have said they simply pack the clay around driftwood pieces. i have only seen pics of small driftwood pieces. with a 6 foot by 2 foot back i am looking for some larger size chunks o' wood. i guess i know the answer but have to ask. for my frogs safety i really should silicone it in place. agreed??
> 
> ...


I think as long as you press it good onto the glass you shouldn't have a problem

Ed is a little braver than me. I always siliconed the wood to the glass no matter what size it was

Redart clay is another form of clay. It does have a red color to it. I did a few backgrounds with it mixed with peat and have no problems with it. It just doesn'texpand like sodium bentonite

180 gallon? thats some tank Gary. WHat are you putting in there?


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I apply my clay with the tank sitting upright.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

frogface said:


> I apply my clay with the tank sitting upright.


There you go Gary. Concern #1 eliminated


----------



## Brien (Aug 27, 2009)

jeffr said:


> Yeah I mixed a lot of milled sphangum moss with it so it should green up nicely. I wish I used this 20 tanks ago




Is this why moss appears on a lot of clay backgrounds?


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

brien said:


> Is this why moss appears on a lot of clay backgrounds?


Either that or it could be coming from the peat? will peat moss green up after a while??


----------



## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I dont know about you guys...But the bag I buy is actually called "Sphagnum Peat Moss" lol...Hard to tell which moss it could be.

I have a ton of green now  Its almost flourescent in spots!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeffr said:


> I think as long as you press it good onto the glass you shouldn't have a problem
> 
> Ed is a little braver than me. I always siliconed the wood to the glass no matter what size it was
> 
> ...


I mix the red art clay with calcium bentonite (about 75/25) and then mix that with the organics. This has worked very well for me. 

This is an more recent picture of the tanks referenced in the thread above (sorry it isn't better quality). 

Note the water dripping pooling in the upper right of the picture.


----------



## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

I plan to give this technique a try! Did a test run with an old Exo foam background and found it extremely easy to use...sets up quickly but I have my doubts whether it will provide any structural support to wood as does silicone or GS; I plan to stick with silicone to firmly attach any main pieces. I found that the straight kitty litter dries out within four days in my basement (out in the open), but in a humid enclosure I doubt this will occur. 
I can only hope to get a fraction of Ed's growth.

P.s. Thanks Kyle for getting the login bugs fixed--I missed DB for 5 days.
Scott


----------



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Regarding moss growth: most mosses prefer an acidic substrate, so peat is a great substrate for it. I think spores settling on peat backgrounds and growing is most likely what is occuring in a lot of tanks.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Scott,

The growth was actually better before I stress tested the drip wall by shutting off the pump for 3+ months...and not adding any water to the system. There were originally three or four different mosses in different areas of the drip wall (and a lot of ferns..) . I'm waiting to see if the various mosses return or the one that is left will outcompete them. 
Ed


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Ed said:


> I mix the red art clay with calcium bentonite (about 75/25) and then mix that with the organics. This has worked very well for me.
> 
> This is an more recent picture of the tanks referenced in the thread above (sorry it isn't better quality).
> 
> Note the water dripping pooling in the upper right of the picture.


Thats great Ed. I can't seem to locate calcium bentonite local. I mix calcium carbonate with the redart clay


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> Regarding moss growth: most mosses prefer an acidic substrate, so peat is a great substrate for it. I think spores settling on peat backgrounds and growing is most likely what is occuring in a lot of tanks.


Hi Ron,

I missed this earlier. The pH of the water at the base of that drip wall is around 8... 
The moss growth has gotten dense enough that many sections of the drip wall are now pretty stiff.. 

Ed


----------



## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

what about if the clay is in constant contact with water from a water feature. Will it breadk down?


----------



## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

looking forward to useing the clay mix on my 180.i will looking for the calcium bentonite here soon. i will practice on a spare tank to get the hang of it. i think i am going to try the rolling the clay into long strings to try to simulate roots and stuff.. just to let you know, i failed art in high school so this could be disastrous!

jeef i have 5 mint terribilis coming for the 180. i have a 40 long that has been sitting unclaimed since i built a couple months back so that will serve as my temp tank.

AG


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Quaz said:


> what about if the clay is in constant contact with water from a water feature. Will it breadk down?


See this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/58189-best-background-material-dripwall-2.html 

Not all clays/clay mixes act the same in contact with the water flows. People using the kitty litter method have reported poor success when using it in contact with a water feature. Ben Eiben who started using clay before me has used his own mixes in contact with slow moving water features with no problems. My successes have involved flows up to that of a magnum 350...see the thread link above for my comments there and water flowing down the moss drip wall shown above. One of the nice things about clay drip walls is once they are set up and stable, you don't have to run your pump all of the time. Having the pump cycle on and off at least once a day for a few minutes (currently that one is down to 8 minutes once a day) is enough to keep the moss and plants happy. 

Ed


----------



## drufrog (Jun 1, 2007)

Great thread!!! Like the detailed how to by Jeff and the always great additions from Ed and all other contributers. When I start my first viv, I will be coming back to this and hopefully will not have any questions. Props to all. OT:Also Kristy, I love your gliders. I had 2 male greys growing up and one (Link) died at 13yrs old and the other (Marus) died at 10. They were my little buddies.


----------

