# monster tads!



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ive been experimenting w/ a new tad system and have found out that dart tads are kinda like goldfish. ive got pics of 2 tads appr 2 months apart in age and the 3 week old is bigger than the 3 month old. the pics are on my site on the picture page. i let a couple tads roam the sterilites and graze and they`re enormous. ive always known that the tads are smaller when they come out if i slack on water changes or use smaller pvc but ive never had containers this big to let them roam free in. anybody experimented w/ this?


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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

Hey Aaron,

I'm not too experienced with my own (as my first 3 tads are still in the water), but I remembered reading this off of http://www.doylesdartden.com/Breeding.html



> On May 29, 1996 on FrogNet, Christian Som reported that "At the University of Zurich, we did several tests on thousands of tadpoles with different food combinations. Tadpoles with high protein food grew fast and metamorphosed pretty early. But many ended up with spinal distortions. We think, the reason for that was, that they grew too fast with too little vitamins and minerals. The studies were done on European waterfrog tadpoles but I had the same effects with my dendrobatids."


I haven't found too much else, although, I remember reading somewhere that bigger containers will yield bigger tads. Anyway, I'm interested in seeing how yours do. How big of a container are you using?

Jeff


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have had tadpoles that were enormous and the others were dwarfed, and these were tricolor tads that some say you can raise communally. However, all the smaller ones died during metamorphis, and only the "monster tads" made it. The froglets are extremely healthy.

I have no idea why all the smaller ones died right after metamorphis.

Corey heard of some techniques that cause all of the tadpoles to grow large...if I'm not mistaken (think you keep them in a tank filled with algae and bacterial scum for them to eat?)

Not sure if Iodine has any effect. I heard it does on developing tadpoles, but not sure if that was only for getting tadpoles to morph.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Hey Aaron, 

It’s good to see you posting on this list. I have three green footed leucs that I purchased from you this July, at the Westchester show. They are fat, healthy, and doing well.

As for tadpole growth I can relate some common knowledge (which is supported experimentally) about fish growth. 

1.) When fry are grown separately they grow more quickly and achieve a larger adult size. 
2.) When fry are grown with frequent and large volume water changes the results are similar to the above.
3.) When fry are given high protein foods they also grow more quickly and achieve larger adult size. There is a problem here though. There is evidence that shows that a high protein diet can cause kidney damage in humans. This may or may not hold true for some fish and tadpoles. Also high protein diets increase the amount of nitrogenous waste, which means that containers will become polluted more quickly.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Sounds like what's been observed with communal rearing. From what I've read the tads are much larger. I haven't done solitary rearing so I can't comment on the difference in size, but the dwart tincs I just morphed out were 1/2" snout to vent. Too bad they have SLS.



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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i feed a mix of dry daphnia, bloodworm and alge wafers(ground into a powder). i then add a little aquarian tropical flake so it`s not too powdered. not very hi in the protein range.35 - 66% avg for 1:1 ratio about 48%. i guess that si more than just fish food or algae but i figure the insect larvae and algae is closer to their natural diet then ground up fish parts. spirulina is about 42% protein also. i have seen some tail kinking less than 1%. what kind of supplement could i add to increase the calcium and d3? kale or some type of leafy green?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

hi mike,
keep trying. ive had sls and normal dwarf tincs in the same clutch years ago during winter. ive found that water temps can get as low as the lo 60`s when the room temp was at 80. cold transfers thru solid objects. the cold was creeping up from the floor and out from the wall and chilling my tads. i found that that was the cause for the sls. i now have a temp gun and, even in a newly built extra insulated facility i have to temp gun things if the temps drop outside. its the concrete slab that fluxes w/ the outside temps.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I think I'm going to try clay for calcium/minerals, here is some info...
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/clay2.htm
If you look around they have that special clay for ponds, which is what I am going to try.
I think someone had a post on here a while back that used clay in his tad rearing containers, and he said they did eat the clay.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

i've also noticed a larger healthier tad once morphed will be a faster growing healthier frog. the growth rate as a froglett seems to be directly related to its health as a tadpole.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

do they bite each other w/ communal rearing? i was wondering if they establish a dominance line early when they are communally raised. i recently started putting tads in a community tank when they almost had their front legs out. i stopped when i noticed that the tads w/out front legs and with tads mouth parts would bite any tads that had emerged front legs. i noticed it only between differnt species of tads. i think azureus would bite azureus though. 
as froglets ive started raising only same species per tank. i noticed that bullying occured w/ most mixed tanks unless i fed 2x or more daily. overabundance of food or closer looking morphs do better together(blue sips/azureus, dwarf tincs/alanis/surcobalts) and some morphs are more prone to being bullies than other morphs/species.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

When it comes to bone deformities one might want to consider the importance of vitamin C. There is anecdotal evidence that shows that spinal deformities can be prevented in fish fry by adding stabilized vitamin C to their food source.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

With my auratus, the six-points usually do ok communally, the turquoize and bronze do not...when I tried, a couple of tads hardly grew at all, with one or two tads growing fairly well...I don't do communal at the present.

Also for bone formation it has been suggested that folic acid is important as well. Stinging nettle has a lot of it, avoid spinach, the oxalic acid in it inhibits calcium uptake.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ive got tons of nettle bein i moved into a swamp, kinda fitting for a frog farm. do you boil it to take out the sting or just dry and powder it?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Just dry and powder it.
If you are picking it live, the newer shoots have less of the "sting"


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

i raise my tinc tads in communal tanks and they morph out significantly larger than what I've seen and heard from other people. I've noticed that with enough plants, the tadpoles wont bother each other. I've had over 15 tadpoles in a 20 long with just 3 inches of water... No water changes, just addition. I've never lost one (keeping fingers crossed).


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## Darryl (Dec 2, 2005)

I have been using two types of plastic containers to raise some of my tricolor tads in and have noticed some interesting results. 
Both plastics containers are the same type of plastis, type 5 recycleble food grade. One is a drinking cup approx 250ml, the other is a wider, shallower take-away type bowl. 
Location, water changes, feeding, the water depth is same in both types of containers and everything else is the same except the size and shape. 

The tads in the wider shallower containers grow faster, they also seem more active and on average morph out 10-15 days before those from the same clutch kept in the drinking cups. 

I am deducing that the greater surface area alows for more gas exchange as well as more exposrure to light. This seems to be backed up by the fact that there is beter algae and java moss growth in the wider containers. 

Also tads kept in slight more acidic and softer water seem to grow on faster than others, once again slightly softer and acidic water can have a higher oxygen content.

Because of the better algae and plant growth, the tads tend to graze more algae nd consume less artificial foods and have plants in the containers helps to control nitrate levels.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Thanks for the advice Aaron. I'll keep that in mind when my newest tads hatch in the next few days. 

As long as the tads are similarly sized and not over crowded they most likely won't bite. My setup is a sterilite sweater box (32 quart) with java moss and about 2" of water w/ oak leaf based tadpole tea. I've put new tads in with 1 month old tads and got very little nibbling. So little that I didn't notice, my girlfriend did. When I put new tads in with established tads (they had their back legs), the new tads were canabalized. This was with seven established tads and adding two new tads. I've heard that a container this size can comfortably hold around 20 tads, which sounds plausable from my experience. 

My next setup will be with three+ of these containers. 1 for new tads until they get big enough for tanks 2, 3, 4... that will have established tads. Then a morphing tank for all of the morphing tads. This system could easily be made into a rack which I think is a pretty big advantage a solitary container system. 

I use this method simply because I am a college student and really don't have the time to mess with regular water changes. It's certianlly not because of the volume of tads I have.



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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Hi ErickG,
when you say:


> raise my tinc tads in communal tanks and they morph out significantly larger than what I've seen and heard from other people.


Do you mean 'significantly' in the scientific sense (statistically distinguishable difference in size at the p=.05 level) or significantly like you notice they morph out larger?

Thanks for the clarification,
B


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Most of my tadpole experience has been with tricolor tads... I sure had plenty to play with! It was mostly diet based, although it turned out the tadpole set up was pretty significant in that.

With multiple tad containers, density is very important to keep the aggression levels down. It seems that these tadpoles can actually be territorial (and introducing new animals in a tank that already has aggressive animals with set territories is asking for them to become dinner), but to varying degrees. Tricolors were for the most part very good at being raised in relatively high density compared to some other species.

Food was a major factor in tadpole size, and tadpole sized determined froglet sized. My original froglets morphed out significantly smaller than similar tricolors in exhibit (left to their own devices pretty much) at NAIB - this was determined by comparing Gosner 45 stage animals that still had tail nubs, so I was sure I wasn't seeing a one month old froglet and trying to make an unfair comparison. The NAIB froglets looked like my one month olds! I started letting the parents deposit tads in tank, and left some of the tads in the pond to compare, and played with set ups I'd heard other people using. The animals in tank grew the largest, and morphed the largest, even tho their water was never changed, and the pond was full of muck. Turns out that was the key!

In larger community set ups bacteria and detritus tend to build up a lot more than "single tad" containers (which even when they did, often were quickly overgrazed). The detritus (mostly oak and almond leaf skeletons and sand) and bacteria alone made the mass and size difference I saw in my froglets (the only supplimental food they got was occassional feedings of betta fish flakes). Few water changes also helped. Algae based tadpole diets produced small and weak froglets.

This is not to say that this is the best method - I've heard of massive auratus froglets coming from individually raised tadpoles in beer cups. No water changes (just topping off) plenty of slime to eat, and the froglets were great. I believe the diet was 50% chlorella/sprulina 50% fish flakes.

As long as the water quality stays good (if it doesn't, you're overfeeding) there is no real reason to change the water, so I don't.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

so what about ammonia buildup. the bacteria and algea and stuff eats their waste which they in turn eat etc.
i`m using a canister filter now and recirculationg about 100 gallons for about 700+ tads w/ a fluval 404 w/ carbon and biomax and sponge filters in the reservior. i`m adding fishnet to the wall and letting plants grow out of the tad containers and thinking of adding gravel or clay substrate. should i think of coco peat instead to condition the water. all ive read about filtering 101 is about fish. would dart tads produce less ammonia in their environ becasue of the lack of sizeable water or does the rain change it enough?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I thought fish produced ammonia... not sure about tads (I know the frogs don't... huh). Basically, how I set up tads communally (for tricolors, TFs, etc) has a gravel and sand substrate with a couple of large rocks/stones for more surface area for bacteria slime goodness. The tads will graze the rocks/stones/gravel for bacteria and actually ingest some of the sand, passing it after they've cleaned it of bacteria (does that count as fiber?). Also in the tank is detritus, usually leaf skeletons of wild almond or oak after tadpole tea is made. This is especially benificial for epipedobates and allobates, and probibly a very good addition to the diet of most of the tincs group frogs in the hobby. I will occassionally have sprigs of frill plant floating in the tank, and/or floating fern/duckweed, but often I don't have enough light on the tanks to keep them alive for really long periods. Due to low light (and hungry tads that would never give it a chance anyways), no algae grows in the tank, its purely bacterial slime. The only filters I've ever had on the tanks were undergravel.

The bacteria not only acts as a food source, but also will take care of a lot of the tadpole waste in the water. I top off the water, with occasional water changes (like... a handful, if that many, times a year, and only partial). Its kinda like a small puddle who's water level goes down... then it rains. As long as you don't over populate, these tanks don't require a serious filter system (the tads seem to do better with less) as long as you control feeding. I RARELY SUPPLIMENTALLY FEED. Overfeeding is how you will destroy the water quality in this set up! When I supplimentally feed is very little food so its eaten very fast. The detritus and bacteria slime is more than enough food for most tads. I supplimentally feed with fish flakes, normally red (the tads quickly learn this is dinner and attach them in the tank). I do not use algae mixes at all. I've seen no evidence that the PDFs we have in the hobby are eating algae to any serious degree in the wild, so I don't waste my time with it. The bacteria and detritus are their main sources of food, and not only do they not mess up water quality like the other foods, they actually help control it lol.

Thumbnails and tinc group frogs (if you want to) can be raised individually in plastic beer cups, with a similar idea. Just top the water off. When the tad pops froglets, thats when you dump the water. A soft rinse of water (not rubbing the bacteria slime off), some fresh tadpole tea, some detritus, and then add the next tad.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Here is an example of what can happen when raising communally...
I accidentally put two six-point tads in one of my 9oz tad cups...didn't worry about it too much as I had six-point tads coming out of my ears, and I wondered how it would turn out.
The picture tells the story...the tad and morphing froglet are from the same clutch.









I've raised clutches of six of that species in 64 oz tubs before (those had gravel and an airstone though), and had not had that drastic of a difference...If someone else were showing me this pic...I'd probably think they were full of it :shock:


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ive always raised phyllo and epis communally, they dont do as well by themselves. 
my tads are all in individual 2inch pvc containers w/ mesh siliconed to the bottom. they graze out their containers quickly, i have to supplementally feed. it`s easier to collect 20 or more tads when they are in individual containers and cant dive into muck. i was thinking of adding gravel to enhance flow under the dish pans w/ holes in the bottom which each house 20 individual tads. maybe the plant roots will grow thru the bottom and act as extra food. w/ a system such as this w/ overflow and canister filter i couldnt add anything that would run thru and clog the system. as long as it`s heavy and sinks it would be ok. 
i`d also have to remove the solid waste. you cant really vaccuum solid waste out of the muck on the bottom. gravel would be the only feasible substrate. clay may be better?
maybe trying to raise tads like fish isnt the way to do it. i`m going to try it and just keep checking the ammonia levels. if i dont get an ammonia spike would i have to worry about nitrite/nitrate levels?
ive got to do something as i may run out of water here and cant cart in 300g of water a week for changes.
if not it`s a hoot to cut the front lawn. it`s so swampy here, there are wetlands on 80 of the 100 surrounding acres. i see 3 leopard frogs hop every step i take on the front lawn. cutting back and forth sends them all toward the water in a line. it`s like a frog brigade marching across the front yard.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2006)

Dancing frogs:
the clay in the link sounds like what in our industry we call "pyrophylitic" clay, or "playa clay" (not a gangsta thing, as in flat dry ex bodies of water...) one brand name is "rare earth" you should be able to find a few types at any hydro shop...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Brian, the difference you are seeing is probibly due to hormones, one of the other problems with keeping frogs communally, especially the tinc group. NAIB back in late 90s, had their tadpole bins set up with water overflows, and the tads where "sprayed down" daily (flake food sprinkled on top, then a water hose on a "rain" type sprinkler hosed down the water, the flakes sunk, the tads got a little fresh water, and there was a little over flow). Whenever they wanted to flush the tank a bit more, they just let the water run a little longer. I was told that this was a good idea because many of the species they were raising like this - such as azureus - gave off hormones that limited growth except for the one or two most advanced in the bin, who grew just fine (and would be replaced by another tadpole to produce hormones when the original tad came out of water). This allowed for the tadpole to come out of the water one at a time, rather than a whole clutch at once (an evolutionary advantage for them). Once the tad with front legs is out of the water, the second tad should develop normally.

If this is happening to your tads (I believe most of the tinc group does it when raised together, epis and what not tend to do it less - they are raised more often in groups in the wild), cycling your water might actually be a bad idea unless you have some stage in it that will take out the hormones (like RO - cuz RO takes out EVERYTHING). This is why a number of breeders I know don't bother cycling water.

Aaron, when the detritus and tadpole poo builds up to a much at the bottom, I either spoon it out, or suck a portion of it out with a fish vaccum - and let me tell you its the best plant fertilizer EVER! The solid waste from a tadpole breaks down pretty quickly and nicely in the compost, and isn't a big deal in my tanks (the bacteria takes care of it - if you are unsure of the bacteria levels in your tank or are starting new ones, I recomend Cycle). I do understand the "diving into the muck" bit, but once the tads go in, I don't have to take them out til they pop front legs, and by that time they are so uncoordinated they aren't that hard to get (but I'm willing to take the extra couple mins you might not have in your workday, so each to their own). Having an undergravel filter running allows for this to happen to the point where tad poo just isn't an issue water chemically. For species tads that like a little water movement (not too many in the hobby, but if INIBICO and Pepper Peru exports go thru, we'll see a couple) instead of using bubblers in the undergravel tubes to raise it slowly, you can put on powerheads (WEEEEEEEEEEE its a stream!).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would skip the Cycle as it lacks the corret bacteria. What you want is a product that contains Nitrospira.. 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

After a quick google search I came up with this product - Bio-Spira by Marineland. Going by the research information available on their website, this is a bacterial colony of Nitrospira (and being living its suppose to be kept refrigerated). Is this what you are talking about?

So what does the Cycle have in it, the Nitrobacter they thought was doing the dirty work? Is this a product worth trying out, instead of Cycle?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

From a caudata.org post http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7 ... #POST21746


If you are using the commercial brands of bacterial starter cultures these as far as I know do not usually have the correct strains of bacteria to run the nitrogen cycle. Nitrobacter* may not be the bacteria needed to convert nitrite to nitrate in this cycle but instead strains of Nitrospira appear to be the required species/strains. (As far as I know there has been no determination on the shelf life for the "jump start" cultures often used by the fish hobbyist and anecdotally these often appear to be badly degraded).

* Hovance, T.A.; Taylor, L.TA.Blakis, A.; Delong, E.F.; 1998, Nitrosira-like bacteria associated with nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria; Appl. Enviromental Microbiology 64:258-264 

Burrell, P.C.; Phalen, C.M.; Hovanec, T.A.; 2001; Identification of bacteria responsible for ammonia oxidation in freshwater aquaria; Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 67: 5791-5800


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

T. A. Havanec (Dr. Timothy Hovanec, Chief Science Officer of Marineland Labs - got this off the Marinland website which references the same papers in the Bio-Spira research section) in both of the papers you listed and is suppose to be the person who developed Bio-Spira which is why I was wondering if this was a product to try.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I do not know if the bio-spira is worth the money as I unaware of any retention studies that demostrate shelf life of any of these products. However the papers are pretty conclusive that the gene markers do not occur in nitrobacter. 

If you have a soil sample from a chytrid free source (such as from a clean tank) you can get a much better sample by stirring the dirt in water, letting it settle (or run it through a coffee filter) and then add to the water as you will add many times the amount of the respective bacteria. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

13013 said:


> Dancing frogs:
> the clay in the link sounds like what in our industry we call "pyrophylitic" clay, or "playa clay" (not a gangsta thing, as in flat dry ex bodies of water...) one brand name is "rare earth" you should be able to find a few types at any hydro shop...


Thanks for that tidbit...additional thoughts on clay here:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 7183#97183


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i think that i have a good source of bacteria in there. some of these dishpans have been used for 3-4 years w/ nothing other than scrubbing and rinsing. i dont think ive cleaned the pvc in years. w/ dirt from the parents tank tracking in when i ad tads they mustve been exposed to everything the rest of my collection has. w/ over 150ft of 2 inch pvc and 20 dishpans going into the new system i think there is enough bacteria space to start up the system. i`m new to this filtration thing though i`m not sure.
i have some month old grazers that are over 2 inches tip to tail at about a month old and they are just starting to form back legs. my tads are coming out bigger already after just 2 weeks and newly added tads are growing quite quick. i think i`ll just ad the gravel and plants and do 1/3 water changes weekly and check the ammonia and vaccum the gravel just like a fish tank. they are individually in containers and i think the sheer volume of water is diluting the hormones(appr. 5 tads/gallon). i think some bacteria slipped through the uv sterilizer and the 1-5 micron filter and may be doing the job of priming the system too. i mean my well is in the middle of 2 oxbows and a pond and tonawanda creek is only 600ft away. i`ll keep y`all informed though.


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

Sorry for not replying... been out of the loop with this thread, but by 'statistically distinguishable' you mean in comparison to frogs seen at shows and sent by other sellers, then yes, they are 'significantly' larger. At least enough to tell that a so-called, '1 month old' froglet for sale is smaller than what I get at the end of metamorphosis.



Ben_C said:


> Hi ErickG,
> when you say:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Hadn't seen this thread. But I have used Bio-Spira several times and it works extremely well. It is a tad expensive, but it is definitely worth it. Instead of cycling a fish tank for a month, it can be cycled in 2-3 days using the Bio-Spira. The solution is basically concentrated nitro-spira/nitrifying bacteria which quickely establish themselves in the tank. The solution needs to be refrigerated at all times until used. I froze it by accident once and the organism died, resulting in no cycling. Cycle along with several other solutions that claim to cycle tanks overnight simply do not work to the degree that Bio-Spira does. They might contain some sort of compound that will decrease nitrite/nitrate to a small degree, but nothing can substitute the living organism.

I get the 1oz packets which can effectively cycle up to 20g of water in a few days. They cost around $10. You can also get 3oz packets and there is also a Bio-Spira for salt water. THIS is pretty much the only place I have found that ships it in the US, unless you can find a LFS that sells it.

Luke


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