# Cloud forest, Cool temp orchid/ frog viv



## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

I have been really getting into the orchid scene and have realized there are countless species that are out of our reach in vivariums due to higher temps. Has anyone specifically set up a tank catering to higher elevation aboreal frog species and cooler orchids/ plants? I am thinking of doing this...any suggestions for frogs? Orchids too. I was thinking a thumbnail species, I dont remember specifically but I think vanzolinii, and lamasi highland are tree dwelling high elevation species?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Standard lamasi definitely like it cooler. Vanzos like standard frog room temps. Zbrinks was making a wine chiller tank, and lots of orchid peoe make cool temp vivs. As for the orchids, if you can keep temps in the high 50s night to high 60s low 70s days you can grow some really neat stuff. Masdevallia decumanna, Restrepia chameleon, all the cool draculas etc etc


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

Wine chiller tank? Got a link by any chance?


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

Nvm got it! 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/5421-wine-cooler-vivarium.html


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## glass frog (Dec 19, 2011)

I would love to see a bunch of draculas in a viv


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

I dont think I am going to go the extremes of a wine cooler viv....dont think its necessary. my house stays at 68 daytime and winter time a tad cooler which should be just fine for this set up. I think I am going to use LED lights which will mean minimal heat in the viv. If I really need to cool it down I could always just turn the AC in that room down more. I have also looked at Aerangis citrata, Brachtia andina, Cymbidium dayanum. All awesoem lookign orchids. Now for frogs, Other than Standard lamasi anyone know of anything else that enjoys cooler temps?


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## mnagel200 (Apr 22, 2012)

Not related to frogs, but here's a links to info on a cool growing orchid vivarium. Lots of great photos and info about orchids too:
http://www.orchidkarma.com/my-orchids/my-growing-spaces/


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Highland anthonyii


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

To get cool orchids to really thrive you need to create a +10degree swing in day/night temps, with the nighttime cool temp being the most critical. I doubt your house drops to the 50s at night if it's 68 daytime


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Jason's right. You won't be able to grow these cool growing Masdies and Draculas at those temps. I have a fridge that I've converted into a terrarium that reaches 74 max during the day and drops to 55 at night. I still struggle with most Masdevallias and Draculas. Lepanthes, Scaphosepalums, Porroglossums, and Oxyglossum Dendrobiums grow great though. I've talked to a few growers who grow them very well, and they recommend a drop in night temps to at least 55 lower 50s would be better. 

Here's a link to Zach's wine chiller thread that was mentioned earlier:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/77175-plants-cloud-forest-vivarium.html

Also, look up the Planted Glass Boxes page on Facebook. Justin actually built one out of a wine chiller for these plants and they were growing very well while he had it.


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## ChrisATX (Oct 7, 2008)

*Waves*

Hey guys, this is my project/baby. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/81911-papua-new-guinea-cold-tank-hellishly-hot-austin.html


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

eyeviper said:


> I dont think I am going to go the extremes of a wine cooler viv....dont think its necessary. my house stays at 68 daytime and winter time a tad cooler which should be just fine for this set up. I think I am going to use LED lights which will mean minimal heat in the viv. If I really need to cool it down I could always just turn the AC in that room down more. I have also looked at Aerangis citrata, Brachtia andina, Cymbidium dayanum. All awesoem lookign orchids. Now for frogs, Other than Standard lamasi anyone know of anything else that enjoys cooler temps?


 I grow Cymbidium dayanum in my living room, where it experiences temps from the mid 50's, to the high 90's. Not to mention it's a rather big plant


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Monkey brought up another good point. Cym. dayanum gets huge for a viv plant. The one I had was young, but the growths were pushing 2' tall, and I've seen them outgrowing 10" baskets. You would need a huge tank. I also don't know if this one would like all the constant moisture. If you like the look of the growth habit of Cyms though, look into some of the smaller Phragmipedium species.

The Aerangis will do fine room temp. I grow a bunch of them, and many do fine even outdoors. I wasn't familiar with the third species you mentioned, so I looked it up. It's an Andean Odontoglossum relative coming from 1200-2000m asl. At that altitude, I would say this needs to get at least into the 50s at night to make it, and Andy's temperature range for the species is 78 max and down to 48.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

frogparty said:


> To get cool orchids to really thrive you need to create a +10degree swing in day/night temps, with the nighttime cool temp being the most critical. I doubt your house drops to the 50s at night if it's 68 daytime


This is true It does not get that low..


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

ChrisATX said:


> *Waves*
> 
> Hey guys, this is my project/baby.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/81911-papua-new-guinea-cold-tank-hellishly-hot-austin.html


This is a great idea. I have been thinking all day about making a viv in an actual wine fridge but I didnt like the idea of only being able to see straight in...now you have given another option. Would you mind describing how you did it? Any ideas/ tips on how you would improve it?


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

For those who are interested I have found a peltier thermoelectric cooler. If you get one large enough, in theory it should be capable of cooling the viv quite efficiently from what I have read. I also found a controller for temperature control. My idea is to make a false wall in the back of the tank (think like an aquarium overflow sort of deal). This will have a vent into the tank towards the bottom. The chiller will be mounted on top of the viv with the cpu fan pushing air down through the vent. With the temp controller it should be fairly easy. I am thinking of also using pink insulation foam to insulate as much of the inside surfaces of the tank that can be covered without impeding aesthetics. Unless your house is abnormally warm (above 78) then this method can cool roughly 20 degrees below ambient. so with the average house around 68-75F you are looking at a temp drop to 48-55F. Perfect for these applications. (I have done far more reading into these orchid species now, Thanks everyone for the correction in my thinking). Anyway, let me know what you guys think of this idea. I know its been done before and didnt work well buy maybe it hasnt been done right yet...

Here is the cooler- This one is a bit small but you can easily make your own or find a larger one which are not too much more expensive.

OTE International 60 Watt Thermoelectric TE assembly air to air cooler Peltier | eBay

Here is the temp controller- 

Temperature Control Thermoelectric TE Cooler TEC Peltier Laser Air cooling 12V | eBay


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## ChrisATX (Oct 7, 2008)

Eyeviper, don't fall into the Peltier trap. They cool a VERY SMALL SURFACE AREA. I'm not saying they can't be made to work, but it's VERY difficult and a lot of people have been tragically disappointed in them. Google peltier and vivarium, etc. to get examples. 

My rig is incredibly simple. I took a Haier dorm fridge and ripped it apart. I bent the pipe that connects the cold/evaporator plate (it's usually the ice tray in these dorm fridges) into the position you see. I replaced the glass door with an acrylic one where I had drilled a hole to allow the pipe connecting to the cold plate to the compressor. Then I took another piece of acrylic and covered the screen vent using the screws included in the kit. I put a computer fan in to blow over the cold plate and make heat transfer more efficient. Voila, cold tank.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

[/QUOTE]My rig is incredibly simple. I took a Haier dorm fridge and ripped it apart. I bent the pipe that connects the cold/evaporator plate (it's usually the ice tray in these dorm fridges) into the position you see. I replaced the glass door with an acrylic one where I had drilled a hole to allow the pipe connecting to the cold plate to the compressor. Then I took another piece of acrylic and covered the screen vent using the screws included in the kit. I put a computer fan in to blow over the cold plate and make heat transfer more efficient. Voila, cold tank.[/QUOTE]

So you have the compressor sitting next to the tank? once you rip it all apart how much does it take up? and what size tank max do you think this would chill?


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## ChrisATX (Oct 7, 2008)

Yep, the compressor and condensing coils sit next to the tank, it isn't pretty because the condenser coils are just copper pipe, not the nice neatly organized ones you see welded in a grid on higher end dorm fridge models. 

If you got taller ones (not the little cubes) I would think you'd have no problem chilling something like a 37 gallon or maybe even a 40 vert. Your mileage may vary. I could get the inside of my 10 vert well below freezing with just my little cube fridge rig.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

ChrisATX said:


> Yep, the compressor and condensing coils sit next to the tank, it isn't pretty because the condenser coils are just copper pipe, not the nice neatly organized ones you see welded in a grid on higher end dorm fridge models.
> 
> If you got taller ones (not the little cubes) I would think you'd have no problem chilling something like a 37 gallon or maybe even a 40 vert. Your mileage may vary. I could get the inside of my 10 vert well below freezing with just my little cube fridge rig.


Is it loud at all? you posted in another thread about a ew idea for temp control on the peltier. What are you tinkering with?


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

What do we make of this? 






I am finding it hard to drop the Peltier thing as it seems just too perfect. I may have to get one and find some play time


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

I've been watching this thread closely, as I'm looking into reducing the temps in my main display vivarium. 
I'm currently rebuilding the entire vivarium, and had the following idea for reducing temps...

My daytime temperatures range from 80F near the lights, to approx. 75F near the bottom of the enclosure (with ambient room temperatures between 74F to 76F). I'd like to bring the daytime temperatures down a couple of degrees, but reduce the night temperatures to around 60F-65F. 
Rather than cooling the air, I"m looking at cooling the water for the drip-wall at the back of the enclosure.

My thoughts are to pump water (via mag-drive statuary pump) from the reservoir to the top of the vivarium. Atop the enclosure, I was planning to add a small, 8-bottle wine cooler--with a temperature setting down to 45F. Inside the wine cooler, I would insert an acrylic container (approx 8 gallons of water), and inside place a Wort chiller coil. This would be piped through the side of the wine cooler. The "warm" water from the vivarium sump would enter one side of the coil, pass through the chilled water bath, and exit the other side of the coil and into the drip-wall manifold. The hope is to be able to reduce the water temperature in the sump to approx. 60F. 

See attached diagram.

I didn't know if anyone had tried this type of arrangement before, or had any input. Would love to hear some feedback.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

What is your drip wall made of? Also, what is the humidity in the room surrounding your vivarium? If you were able to pull dry room air through your drip wall using a fan, you may be able to cool the inside further while providing a buoyant atmosphere within the tank. 

I've never tested this idea. I'm just thinking of the evaporative coolers used in greenhouses. In areas of low humidity (30%), growers are able to achieve a 20 degree temp difference between their greenhouse and the outside using just these cooling pads. I've always wanted to try this out, but I don't currently have the space to do so.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

Spaff said:


> What is your drip wall made of? Also, what is the humidity in the room surrounding your vivarium? If you were able to pull dry room air through your drip wall using a fan, you may be able to cool the inside further while providing a buoyant atmosphere within the tank.
> 
> I've never tested this idea. I'm just thinking of the evaporative coolers used in greenhouses. In areas of low humidity (30%), growers are able to achieve a 20 degree temp difference between their greenhouse and the outside using just these cooling pads. I've always wanted to try this out, but I don't currently have the space to do so.


Would this work on a small scale? I know what your talking about but have never seen a small one...iv never been in a small green house either.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

RarePlantBroker- I dont know much about this stuff but it sounds like a good idea. Using the sump as a heat sink would always work. It seems its either small tanks or large tanks this cooling stuff is for not in between..


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

eyeviper said:


> Would this work on a small scale? I know what your talking about but have never seen a small one...iv never been in a small green house either.


I have no idea if it would work. I've seen it working on hobbyist greenhouses, but I wouldn't necessarily call them small. I would imagine it would depend some on the volume of air you could pull through the wet wall and the humidity of the room air.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

The back of the drip wall is tree fern panels (or will be--under re-construction right now). I hadn't planned any space for air movement, but maybe I should consider constructing some type of wide and fairly flat duct behind the drip-wall. While our ambient humidity here is fairly high (even with the a/c on it's still around 45%), it may be possible to construct a peltier type cooler as outlined in the video above--and use that as a "mini a/c" to produce cold air into the duct periodically through the night....

On another note, I've just gotten a response back from someone at Custom Thermoelectric about their air to liquid Peltier type coolers. (see: Custom Thermoelectric Assemblies ) I'm currently email-corresponding with one of their technicians about the particulars of the project--and if one of these units could perform the task efficiently.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

RarePlantBroker said:


> The back of the drip wall is tree fern panels (or will be--under re-construction right now). I hadn't planned any space for air movement, but maybe I should consider constructing some type of wide and fairly flat duct behind the drip-wall. While our ambient humidity here is fairly high (even with the a/c on it's still around 45%), it may be possible to construct a peltier type cooler as outlined in the video above--and use that as a "mini a/c" to produce cold air into the duct periodically through the night....
> 
> On another note, I've just gotten a response back from someone at Custom Thermoelectric about their air to liquid Peltier type coolers. (see: Custom Thermoelectric Assemblies ) I'm currently email-corresponding with one of their technicians about the particulars of the project--and if one of these units could perform the task efficiently.


Haha your ahead of me! I was looking at them too. I have found posts from the same guy in that video on an AC forum, and another orchid forum and it was over a year later he said it was working very well. Il feel that these peltier coolers just have not been done right and so have been blown off by peoples failures. I was thinking of insulating the tank and making a insulated duct for the cooler to go into behind a Gs wall so the surrounding air would be cooled more efficiently and not have to contend with glass at ambient temps. I think the coolers will work much better if you give them the opportunity to. Most of the set ups I have while on my google searches are of bare glass tanks with the peltier located on top. If their ambient temp is even normal they are relying inthis thing too cool a non insulated glass box. Its just not going to happen. all the applications you see them in use insulation. Insulate your tank and I think it will work much better. also the water cooling system seems the way to go. Considerable cooling ability with much less work. Let us know what the technician says.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

I'll definitely keep you posted on the air-to-liquid cooler. I'm really convinced that cooling the water is the way to go--with the large amount of glass on the enclosure. 

My sump is going to be enclosed by 1 1/2" of oak and poplar plywood, two layers of fiberglass, and epoxy--and the top will be covered by the false bottom and a couple of inches of my own "modified ABG" type substrate mix--so it should be fairly well insulated. The main temperature exchange will occur during the course of the water passing through the drip-wall.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I was considering building a false back to a tank and filling it with h20, cooled by an aquarium chiller than runs through a bulkhead. I found a few that work this way for about $200. Seriously considering it. I dont care if the daytime highs get mid 70s as long as the nights get to mid 50s


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

frogparty said:


> I was considering building a false back to a tank and filling it with h20, cooled by an aquarium chiller than runs through a bulkhead. I found a few that work this way for about $200. Seriously considering it. I dont care if the daytime highs get mid 70s as long as the nights get to mid 50s


This could actually work very well as a heat sink. with your lights on you would probably run at a reasonable day time temp but at night I could see potential for a decent drop. Some of those little aquarium chillers only do a few degrees below ambient tho so it may be hard to get it really cold when its actually efficient. try it with a spare tank for a few test runs, if I wasnt in a tiny apartment i would start throwing things together now lol.


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## ChrisATX (Oct 7, 2008)

Equilibrium cold side temperature of a liquid cooled Peltier device.


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