# GE changed it's Silicone II !!!!!!



## Hak (Jul 10, 2005)

I started construction on a new viv this week and used up the last of my black silicone. I was shocked when i realized all Lowes and HD had was Silicone II with Bio Seal, some new mold inhibitor formula they began to add to the mix. I was wondering if anybody knows of an alternative that comes in black and maybe a little info on what makes mold inhibitors bad and what it does to a tank.


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## joshuatree (Nov 14, 2005)

hmm...I just bought some brown GE S II yesterday and no Bio-seal... Maybe i should stock up...


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2006)

I almost bought some with the bio-seal. Phew. I found some that were regular so I bought a couple extra. Hope you find some that are 
frog-friendly. :?


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

I recently went to Lowes and noticed they had the GE silicone 2 with the bio seal.. I looked behind them and found the only remaining box of GE silicone 2 without the seal. I bought a few extra, but they will be gone before I know it...We need an alternative.. Anyone care to experiment?

How bad is the bioseal for our frogs?
-Frank


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2006)

Maybe we should make a petition and have a protest outside GE headquarters :twisted: I would also like to see an alternative. Preferably cheap, because aquarium silicone is not. :x


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Use Silicone I. It's the only kind of GE silicone what doesn't contain it. If you've been here you'll know I sware by Silicone I and would use it any day over Silicone II.



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## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

This was hot topic back in February.

I recommend reading this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ne&start=0

Look more toward page 2 of the thead, as it goes into more detail on the "Bioseal".


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## Hak (Jul 10, 2005)

Thanks for the feedback everybody, I hope HD carries black silicone I cuz Lowes didnt :?


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2006)

I have looked and looked but I have never seen silicone I at my local HD. :evil:


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Herpsupplies.com carries All-glass aquarium brand silicone in black and clear...very fast shipping as well...


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

http://www.buyhardwaresupplies.com/?t=5&itemNumber=1094390
If you want it by the case. 3.80 a tube

http://www.hardwareworld.com/Ge312a-101-Oz-Black-Silicone-p7OAK4U.aspx
If you just want to buy it by the tube. 3.77 a tube

I got a case (first link) for my birthday and my stuff doesn't expire till Auguse of 07. I've never found Black Silicone I in stores, and I've searched MANY of them.



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## Hak (Jul 10, 2005)

Awesome! thanks!


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

use DAP 100% silicon.
It has a much stronger vinegar smell, but it is frog safe and is cheaper.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2006)

defaced said:


> http://www.buyhardwaresupplies.com/?t=5&itemNumber=1094390
> If you want it by the case. 3.80 a tube
> 
> http://www.hardwareworld.com/Ge312a-101-Oz-Black-Silicone-p7OAK4U.aspx
> ...


Seems rather silly that its more expensive when you buy it bulk.

Matt


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I thought the same thing, but it's a far cry cheaper from what most places online are charging (4-6 dollars a tube).



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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

:evil: :evil: Great, I just used silicone II for the back of my aquarium before adding the great stuff. If I make sure to scrape off any i see sticking out, could I just use Silicone I from here on out (i.e- the coir on the great stuff)? 


I am so pissed right now, I totally thought I had gotten the right stuff, I looked for mold inihibitor but didn't pay attention to the bio label.


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## Hak (Jul 10, 2005)

Ahhh, bummer man, I think the GS should seal all that stuff off as long as you cover what ever is left on the edges with Silicone I you should be fine, but I don't know if the inhibitors may seap through the silicone without it. You wont have a lot of surface area of it exposed though so im sure it would be ok.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Does the Silicone II you used have the Bioseal? If it doesn't, then it's fine. If it does, then I'd apply a layer of Silicone I over it to seal it. GS and Silicone don't adhear too well to each other, and I wouldn't trust the GS to seal the Silicone.



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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

From this thread: Viv Safe Materials


JL-Exotics said:


> ***UPDATE***
> 
> Just got off the phone with GE. Here's what I've been told...
> 
> ...




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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

There was a huge write up on frognet some time ago on the Silicone thing with spec sheets on the different versions. At the time the window and door version DID NOT have the mold inhibitor in it. Thats not to say that has not changed.

That being said if the comment from GE was true I have used Silicone II over the last couple of years on every tank I have.

If someone has the time they may want to have GE send them the latest spec sheets.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2006)

I have been using DAP brand ever since I had GE that didnt cure. Hectors hardware carries Black DAP and its food safe once cured. It seems to setup much faster than GE.


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## Derrick (Oct 28, 2005)

The only hardware store left in my area that sells 100% silicone in black has the DAP brand. The store employee seemed very knowledgable and said it was fish safe and food grade. Meaning it has no mold inhibitors in it.

Has anyone ever had a problem with the DAP silicone?


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## Hak (Jul 10, 2005)

I couldn't find the DAP in black at the local Lowes. Next stop, HD with my fingers crossed


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## Derrick (Oct 28, 2005)

my Lowes doesnt sell the DAP....just the new GE Silicone II and GE I. I believe the GE I does not have the mold inhibitors but I always ask. Do you have any other local hardware stores that would have a good selection of Caulking? Any non name brand stores?


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## Derrick (Oct 28, 2005)

Home Depot doesnt usually carry that brand either. Hopefully yours does.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Home Depot carries DAP here in Ohio, you may also want to check local grocery stores. At least here they normally have many other general goods. For example the local Meijer has an ok selection of Silicone.

On a side topic I picked up more Silicone II (door and window) and it does not have the BIOSEAL label on it. I looked at the other ones types they had and most of the other types had it, but none of the (door and windows). Im not sure we can base anything on the phone call...


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## Derrick (Oct 28, 2005)

the labeling on DAP says basically not to keep it submersed in water and to wash it after curing before it is considered food grade or frog safe. DAP should be fine as long as it is washed well after fully curing.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Im not sure we can base anything on the phone call...


What's your reasoning behind that? You posted two almost identical posts concerning the matter, that imply that you have more to say on the matter.



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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

> On a side topic I picked up more Silicone II (door and window) and it does not have the BIOSEAL label on it. I looked at the other ones types they had and most of the other types had it, but none of the (door and windows). Im not sure we can base anything on the phone call...


My understanding from GE is that there is no "bio-seal". There is no secret formula mold inhibitor. The standard formula inhibits mold growth and "Bio-Seal" is just a catch phrase to tip the average buyer into their favor. Just a meaningless logo with no actual product...

The gal I spoke to at GE was by no means a chemical engineer, so I'm not taking her word as gospel truth just yet.... But I have no reason to doubt her either. I wouldn't think she'd tell me bio-seal is a marketing gimmick as a sales incentive... unless she's the worst sales/marketing person in the world! 

If you have tubes of several different flavors of the GE silicone on hand, perhaps you could take a look at the ingredients on the label and see if you spot any differences between those with the Bio-Seal label and those without??

I need to make a run to HD myself this afternoon, so I'll see if I can do a side-by-side comparison while I'm there too.

Lets figure this thing out!


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

Quite right.

Matt


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

*Interesting Phone Call*

On a side topic I picked up more Silicone II (door and window) and it does not have the BIOSEAL label on it. I looked at the other ones types they had and most of the other types had it, but none of the (door and windows). Im not sure we can base anything on the phone call...[/quote]

I called GE because the GE Silicone II I used (Kitchen and Bath) would not set up. My mistake Kitchen and Bath and not Door and Window; but the employee I talked to told me that GE Silicone II was not safe for aquariums even after it sets. Its because after it sets it still leaks chemicals into the water. Her position was that GE does not recommend GE II for aquariums.

Michael


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Mike, 

Well like I said in a past post there was a huge write up on this a year or so ago and the person put a ton of time into it and gathered all the spec sheets from GE and other companies. Basically my take on it at the time was that Silicone II was hands down the best you could buy. It was tested to be 2-3 times stronger than standard silicone and perfectly safe. Now that is not to say that they have not made changes. I know more than a few frogers who use it on everything and the only key is that, it is the (Window and Door) version.


My main point is this:
The person they talked to may have been nothing more than a operator that started the day before. Thus having no understanding of all of the products. This thread comes across as "GE SILICONE II IS BAD" and I just wanted it to be clear that there is clearly not enough information here to say that. This topic comes up about every few months and there has yet to be any solid data against GE Silicson II Window and Door. The silicone designed for aquariums is one of the biggest rip offs around as the price is sometimes 4-5x more. Now if I was building a huge aquarium I might pay the extra but for tanks that hold little to no water its not worth the cost. 

Just my 2 cents as I am also not a chemical engineer...


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Perhaps that would be a good article to include in the caresheets portion of this site. I am interested in reading this person's work, could you please post it?

I have read the ASTM documents on testing adheasives, and I highy doubt any individual has the ambition or equipment to test to see the "strength" of one silicone against another. Having looked at data sheets for different silicones, there is almost never any information concerning mechanical properties. Strenght is a bit more complicated than most people think because of the different kinds of loading conditions that are applicable in this situation, of which, each loading usually has a different material property it's testing: torsion, tension, compression, fatigue, wet, submersed, substrate adheasion... 

I agree, "aquarium" silicone is a sham, but I'm not getting the same feeling you are that this thread is a bash against Silicone II. Someone posted about the Bioseal, and the conversation went from there. 

GE's Silicone site (link) has MSDS for Silicone I and II. Looking at the dates of the MSDS were updated, the black Silicone I (GE312A) and II (GE5030) were last updated in 03, while the white Silicone II (GE5010) was updated in September of 05. The only way to see if this is because of the Bioseal would be to have a copy of the previous MSDS. Also looking at secion 2 of the MSDS for Silicone II, how someone could put that in their tank is beyond me when Silicone I has nothing in it that is hazardus according to the MSDS. 

If you are somehow referring to my personal sentiments about Silicone II, then that can be discussed elsewhere.



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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

No nothing towards your personal sentiments on it, just that there have been more than a number of scares on the topic, and no data to back them up.

Ill do some digging and see if I can find the old article....

Here is one comment but not what i was looking for:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/frognet/message/32793

I do believe GE is very cautious with what they say about Silicone II and normaly point people at I or none at all. I think in most dartfrog setups just about all of them are safe. There are people that use kitchen and bath with no issues.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2006)

*GE Silicone II*

Kyle et al, really appreciate all the effort both past and present to sort all this out. I can only relate my experience about GE Silicone II (kitchen and bath) and after a month I never got it to completely set solid. I can still smear the silicone.

But it held the water and the structure that I sealed well. Having worked with companies and their end line products I had to wonder if the batch I used though new was defective...can't say.

I have used other silicones and they begin to set almost immediately but this didn't. About chemical leakage, I am only reporting what the GE representative told me and I agree it may have been an operator but I was transferred to someone after I raised the question. She specifically told me no aquarium usage for GE Silicone II. The reason when I pressed her was chemical leakage. But she had no data for long term exposure.

Personally, I will never use GE Silicn II (kitchen and bath) again...what a pain. But I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND about the rip-off with aquarium silicone and the real need to find something more cost effective.

Its the kind of hard work you guys put in that keeps guys like me in the hobby. Thanks.

Michael


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## Derrick (Oct 28, 2005)

I saw some 100% silicone from GE labeled for asphalt and roof and it is the exact same stuff as the regular GE II without the Bio Seal label. It is in a green tube. Same exact ingredients.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

I was also able to do a little comparison at HD today too. They had GE Silicone II door and window "without" Bioseal on the label. They had GE Silicone II door and window "with" Bioseal on the label. They also had GE Silicone II kitchen and bath "with" Bioseal.

In a side by side comparison, there was nothing listed in the ingredients for the kitchen and bath "with" Bioseal, that wasn't also listed in the door and window "without" Bioseal.

Interestingly, the newer door and window silicone with the Bioseal label did not list the ingredients, but refered the user to GE's website instead.

This quasi supports what I was told directly by GE... but again, I would hardly call it conclusive evidence.

Incidentally, I too was told not to use the GE products for aquariums because GE would not be held responsible for any animal deaths. In the same breath, she told me about a customer she had recently spoken to that had been using silicone II in his aquariums for years with no known issues. Again, heresay and inconclusive.

I think we'll all just have to make up our own minds as to what we want to believe. Did I just quote an X-Files episode???


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Derrick said:


> I saw some 100% silicone from GE labeled for asphalt and roof and it is the exact same stuff as the regular GE II without the Bio Seal label. It is in a green tube. Same exact ingredients.


Just FYI - I have used the asphalt and roof with good results....


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Just FYI - I have used the asphalt and roof with good results....


Same here. Though I dispute how well it adhears to slate, or anything really, especially when the whole thing gets wet. I always took the "not for aquariums use" to mean that it wouldn't hold up mechanically under water. 

What I don't understand is why anyone uses Silicone II when Silicone I sits right next to it on the shelf, is a dollar cheaper, doesn't have the "not for aquarium use", and doesn't contain anything harmful (refferencing the MSDS)? Is it the "it must be better because it costs more" ideology? If so it's one of those things I'm destined to not understand. 

About that post, while I have not seen any evidence to support that Silicone II harms our frogs, and personally don't think it does, that post really bears no more weight than any other post I have read about Silicone II. The writer makes a fool of him/herself with the first sentence "Where does everyone get that Silicone II is NOT safe for aquariums?", as anyone can look at the back of a tube of Silicone II and read that it's not intended for aquariums. It's a nice post, but it's no different than saying "I've used un-covered Great Stuff in my tanks for three years, so it must be safe." Anecdotal evidence is just slightly better than no evidence at all.



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## Guest (Mar 21, 2006)

*....Reflection*

Appreciate the previous response and want to say that I am new to the hobby and have greatly appreciated folk who allow me to make mistakes and then learn from: 1. Their Knowledge; but 2. Even more importantly their kindness and grace. 

Its the number 2 that keeps me in the hobby and also puts me in the place where what I receive I then give back. I don't want to be in a place where if I make a mistake, no matter how egregious, that I'm labeled....I get enough of that at work and sometimes with "family." I don't want the same in my hobby. 

What we guard here in this forum is "community" that revolves around "our" hobby. I mention this because while comments may be true, and often are, in regard to folk who really just BLOW IT WITH THEIR WRONG ADVICE there may be a better way to handle them by not labeling them derogatorily. These same people if regarded with respect may often have a lot to offer each of us down the road For the older folk here forgive my lecture.....

In regard to Silicone I, I can't find it at my Home Depot...all they offered was Silicone II and you are right it tells you right on the back "Not for Aquarium use." Why---- I don't know other than what I've been told. I suspect that after drying, the exposure and supposed long-term chemical leakage is so minimal that it would probably take a lot of direct contact to affect a specimen...who knows? I bow to the experts on this forum.

Quite frankly, if I'm like most of the people...I want the darned stuff to dry, work, hold water, and let me have a little enjoyment out of my frogs and plants. That's my bottom line. But hey when I get to breeding THEN I'll argue over the jots and tiddles.


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## Hak (Jul 10, 2005)

Thanks everyone who has responded to this thread eventhough previous threads already existed (sorry bout that i didnt realize someone had already posted a thread on "BioSeal") I know there have been threads on the safety of all silicones, i have just never sen anything about bioseal untill i posted this.
To answer your question Defaced, Silicone II is the only black silicone i can find in my area and that is why i opt for it over Silicone I. Thanks for the link to the wholesale for siliconeI btw :lol: 
I guess im gonna go ahead and try the Silicone with the BioSeal since it appears to be the exact same product that i have previously used without the BioSeal badge. Ill keep yall posted on any ill effects.
One question that no one has elaborated on is what these mold inhibitors do to our tanks. If someone could please explain or direct me to a thread that does, I would sure appreciate it as i have found nothing about their effects on plants/animals.


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## viv4life (Dec 29, 2008)

all the ge silicone brands have bio-seal in it. there just saying it on the label noe for marketing reasons. so even if it doesnt say bio-seal on it it still has it. but if you let it cure for about 2 weeks b4 adding water ect.. it should be fine


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## scream-aim-fire (Mar 1, 2008)

lol guess you didint realize that post was from 3-21-06. your about 3 years too late to answer that question. lol sorry had to make that comment.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

viv4life said:


> all the ge silicone brands have bio-seal in it. there just saying it on the label noe for marketing reasons. so even if it doesnt say bio-seal on it it still has it. but if you let it cure for about 2 weeks b4 adding water ect.. it should be fine


If you look closely on the MSDS for GE silicones you can note that some contain a organnotin compound which has antimildew properties If you look up these types of tin compounds one can see that there are some potential concerns. I would suggest checking to see if those compounds are in all of the types of silicone.

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Save yourself the worry on silicone from the home improvement store and just get aquarium silicone. It's more expensive, but saves the headache.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> If you look closely on the MSDS for GE silicones you can note that some contain a organnotin compound which has antimildew properties If you look up these types of tin compounds one can see that there are some potential concerns. I would suggest checking to see if those compounds are in all of the types of silicone.
> 
> Ed


Hi Ed ---long time no chat---I was having a baby break---

but seriously, just so I'm not jacking this thread, you've got to watch out for any man-made chemicals that can hurt the frog's DNA or cause cancer. 
No polyparaben/methylparaben in that regard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> Hi Ed ---long time no chat---I was having a baby break---
> 
> but seriously, just so I'm not jacking this thread, you've got to watch out for any man-made chemicals that can hurt the frog's DNA or cause cancer.
> No polyparaben/methylparaben in that regard.


Hi Susan,

Congratulations to you. We're grandparents now.. (over the holidays first granddaughter). 

if you look at the MSDS for the silicone II it contains an organnotin compound. Organnotins (in this case dibutyltin acetate) can migrate and this one is listed as having teratogenic effects... 

Ed


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> Hi Ed ---long time no chat---I was having a baby break---
> 
> but seriously, just so I'm not jacking this thread, you've got to watch out for any man-made chemicals that can hurt the frog's DNA or cause cancer.
> No polyparaben/methylparaben in that regard.


There's been a lot of rumors and chain emails surrounding parabens causing cancer (mostly linking antiperspirants to breast cancer), but there is no good scientific evidence to back up the claims. Can Rumors Cause Cancer? -- Jones 92 (18): 1469 -- JNCI Journal of the National Cancer Institute


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## BASSMS1726 (Apr 29, 2008)

I didnt read all other post but i called the company and was told by a representative that silicone ii was the same stuff that silicone i was and that it had the same ingredints; there has alwyas been a bioseal ingredient in it. He also told me that it was a marketing scheme to boost sales!!!

Hope this helps,

bassman


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

On digging around I found an MSDS for GE Silicone I white this is the ingredient list 

A. HAZARDOUS
DISTILLATES,
PETROLEUM,HYDROTREATED
64742-47-8 5 - 10 %
METHYLTRIACETOXYSILANE 4253-34-3 1 - 5 %
B. NON-HAZARDOUS
dimethylpolysiloxane 70131-67-8 60 - 100 %
Treated Filler 68611-44-9 5 - 10 %
Titanium Dioxide 13463-67-7 1 - 5 % 

Note no organotins. It is not the same thing. 
You can order the MSDS here GE Silicones 


Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

capitale said:


> There's been a lot of rumors and chain emails surrounding parabens causing cancer (mostly linking antiperspirants to breast cancer), but there is no good scientific evidence to back up the claims. Can Rumors Cause Cancer? -- Jones 92 (18): 1469 -- JNCI Journal of the National Cancer Institute


Parabens have been shown to remain in high concentrations in cancer tissues, and just as these studies have not found proof that it is directly harmful, they have also not determined that is is harmless. Many chemicals that would have been harmless alone can remain inside the body and later be recombinant with other chemicals to form a hazardous, carcinogenic compound. For example, the fragrance in your perfume/cologne can combine with the moisturizer in your facial cream to form something that may cause cancer. I don't have the study available right now, but I'm sure you could find it if you were in earnest about this.


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## gthorpe2 (Jul 1, 2008)

So is GE II with bioseal good or bad?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

gthorpe2 said:


> So is GE II with bioseal good or bad?


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html


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## gthorpe2 (Jul 1, 2008)

Thanks for the link


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