# Mantella aurantiaca habitat destroyed



## stemcellular

Just damn horrible. 

Catskillet - An Obituary


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## Paul G

Not that I'm surprised but I feel sick after reading that.


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## stemcellular

What's even more disturbing is that other fragmented habitat went up in smoke, literally, in 2001, according to the IUCN.


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## Baltimore Bryan

That it really awful. It's a shame that some of these most incredible animals come from regions where people have so many problems and just don't care.
Bryan


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## sports_doc

Just wonderful.....

Good thing no one 'smuggled' the last remaining frogs from their wild habitat.....right b/f the interminable march of human 'progress' wiped it out....

The human race makes me sick

S


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## mantisdragon91

Sounds like as good an argument as I have ever seen for allowing more not less imports out of Madagascar. The Gottleibi are limited to 400 this year. How many do you think the toxic runoff from the Chinese zinc mines will kill?


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## Woodsman

We are NOT going to prevent the extinction of any animals by keeping them in our basements. This is a selfish and scientifically-misguided notion. Conservation efforts CAN include carefully planned captive breeding, but habitat protection is the only long-term goal for most working in the conservation movement.

If there aren't already ways to become more involved in land conservation in Madagascar, perhaps we should be the ones to start the discussion.

Richard.


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## SavannaZilla

That is so depressing.


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## stemcellular

Woodsman said:


> We are NOT going to prevent the extinction of any animals by keeping them in our basements. This is a selfish and scientifically-misguided notion. Conservation efforts CAN include carefully planned captive breeding, but habitat protection is the only long-term goal for most working in the conservation movement.
> 
> If there aren't already ways to become more involved in land conservation in Madagascar, perhaps we should be the ones to start the discussion.
> 
> Richard.


I've been working with Devin and Matt M. to sponsor an auction and/or fundraiser to benefit amphibian conservation in Madagascar, specifically, Devin's project there. I'd strongly encourage you to attend, donate and participate.


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## mantisdragon91

Woodsman said:


> We are NOT going to prevent the extinction of any animals by keeping them in our basements. This is a selfish and scientifically-misguided notion. Conservation efforts CAN include carefully planned captive breeding, but habitat protection is the only long-term goal for most working in the conservation movement.
> 
> If there aren't already ways to become more involved in land conservation in Madagascar, perhaps we should be the ones to start the discussion.
> 
> Richard.


How do you do land conservation in a country where the government will turn around and sell a protected preserve to the highest bidder? Under the current government in Madagascar and based on the current population poverty and demographics there is almost no way to preserve and protect habitat except at gunpoint. The best we can do is preserve populations in captivity in the hopes that in a few generations the income level and environmental awareness in Madagascar goes up enough to allow the reclamaition of habitat and establishment of reserves where species preserved in captivity can be reintroduced into.

Is it a bleak assesment... absolutely but I suspect it is also the grim reality despite what people wearing rosy colored glasses care to tell us. I would challenge everyone on this forum to attempt to work with at least one Malagasy species with the goal of breeding and cooperating with other breeders to establish long term viable populations. At this point short of killing of or sterilizing 80 plus percent of the population on the island ( and no im not advocating that, tempting as it may be) that is all we can do to help preserve some of the islands amazing fauna(90 percent plus of which is found nowhere else).


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## Azurel

Like the old saying goes "money talks and bullshit walks".....

In this case money is doing the talking and they could careless about the fauna that is only found on the island. Unless these land conservation efforts has 100's of millions of dollars to pour into the country and pay the people to stop clear cutting there isn't anybody gonna listen unfortunately.


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## Woodsman

Will do, Ray.

In the conversation with the herpetologist at the U.S. FWS, Thomas Luderitz (sp?), he likened what is happening now in Madagascar to the massive numbers of endangered Asian turtles that were being exported abroad or consumed locally in 2001. Clearly, the large number of turtle enthusiasts had good husbandry skills, but no formal scientific understanding of how to conserve species. This led to the creation of the Turtle Survival Allaince (TSA), an IUCN/CITES-recognized process by which governmental, zoological, and private breeders are working together to protect genetic stocks of some of the world's most endangered turtle species.

I feel very strongly that this is something that we can do as well for endangered Dendrobatids and Mantellids, but we (the hobby) have to demonstrate that we are willing to work toward conservation efforts and not against them. The nexus of events that led to the creation of the TSA involved an enormous seisure of endangered turtles that were confiscated by the FWS. As a hobby, we must also take a dedicated stand against the smuggling of endangered frogs if we have any chance of being taken seriously be governmental organizations that are legally-charged with the protection of these wodnerful frogs.

We just can't have it both ways, on the one hand saying that we care about wild frog populations, but then on the other hand support the taking of these same frogs from the wild in unsustainable numbers. I certainly feel that the conservation efforts of the frog hobby would be well-received at the federal level, but I think it is clear that it would be extremely difficult to gain any legal recognition for frogs that were not taken from the wild legally.

Please let me know when the auction will occur and I will do all I can to participate and help out.

Take care, Richard.



stemcellular said:


> I've been working with Devin and Matt M. to sponsor an auction and/or fundraiser to benefit amphibian conservation in Madagascar, specifically, Devin's project there. I'd strongly encourage you to attend, donate and participate.


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## mantisdragon91

Woodsman said:


> Will do, Ray.
> 
> In the conversation with the herpetologist at the U.S. FWS, Thomas Luderitz (sp?), he likened what is happening now in Madagascar to the massive numbers of endangered Asian turtles that were being exported abroad or consumed locally in 2001. Clearly, the large number of turtle enthusiasts had good husbandry skills, but no formal scientific understanding of how to conserve species. This led to the creation of the Turtle Survival Allaince (TSA), an IUCN/CITES-recognized process by which governmental, zoological, and private breeders are working together to protect genetic stocks of some of the world's most endangered turtle species.
> 
> I feel very strongly that this is something that we can do as well for endangered Dendrobatids and Mantellids, but we (the hobby) have to demonstrate that we are willing to work toward conservation efforts and not against them. The nexus of events that led to the creation of the TSA involved an enormous seisure of endangered turtles that were confiscated by the FWS. As a hobby, we must also take a dedicated stand against the smuggling of endangered frogs if we have any chance of being taken seriously be governmental organizations that are legally-charged with the protection of these wodnerful frogs.
> 
> We just can't have it both ways, on the one hand saying that we care about wild frog populations, but then on the other hand support the taking of these same frogs from the wild in unsustainable numbers. I certainly feel that the conservation efforts of the frog hobby would be well-received at the federal level, but I think it is clear that it would be extremely difficult to gain any legal recognition for frogs that were not taken from the wild legally.
> 
> Please let me know when the auction will occur and I will do all I can to participate and help out.
> 
> Take care, Richard.


Apples and Oranges Rich. The turtles were intended for food. Last time I checked no one is eating mantellas and darts Being imported for the dinner table is a dead end. being imported for a hobbyist who has taken the time to learn, prepare and breed most certainly isn't a dead end. 

Plus the turtles are actively being captured for the food trade. Most Malagasy stuff are by products of habitat destruction. The turtles would still have a home if the collectors left them alone. Most Malagasy stuff woudn't.

Having said that I admire your vision and goal, it just needs to be tempered by realism.


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## Woodsman

Hi Roman,

I have been working in endangered native plant and wildlands conservation here in the "Big Apple" for 35 years and am an enormous realist. I know which battles will be worth the effort and which ones won't. There are always a lot of politics at work here. In the end, though, I have helped add thousands of acres of natural parklands to the City and saved numerous plants from extirpation or extinction.

The point I was trying to make is that we (the hobby) appear to the government as part of the problem (not part of the solution). I know you believe that all species extinctions result from habitat loss, but over-harvesting is a serious issue and the hobby participates in that over-harvesting. How many of the thousands of Mantellids that were imported just one year ago are still alive? Maybe the ones you have or Ray or a few others. Most are already dead and can't become part of any conservation effort.

The turtle seisure (as it was explained to me) were animals for the pet trade as well as for food. I just think our case is stronger if we don't insist that wild-collecting for the hobby has no impact on endangered frog populations.

Take care, Richard.



mantisdragon91 said:


> Apples and Oranges Rich. The turtles were intended for food. Last time I checked no one is eating mantellas and darts Being imported for the dinner table is a dead end. being imported for a hobbyist who has taken the time to learn, prepare and breed most certainly isn't a dead end.
> 
> Plus the turtles are actively being captured for the food trade. Most Malagasy stuff are by products of habitat destruction. The turtles would still have a home if the collectors left them alone. Most Malagasy stuff woudn't.
> 
> Having said that I admire your vision and goal, it just needs to be tempered by realism.


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## mantisdragon91

I agree with you if we are wild collecting animals from pristine habitats. What happens if the animals are coming from habitats which no longer exist because of slash and burn farming? How are we the problem in that case?


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## Woodsman

Hi Roman,

If we were collecting frogs with a scientific/conservation permit, we would know where the frogs are from and target collections from as many different populations as possible.

With unregulated wild-collecting, unscrupulous exporters collect from any area that is accessible (protected pristine or not) and this does have negative pressures on wild populations.

I would ask you if you know of any professional conservationists or organizations that advocate increasing the quotas of wild Mantellids that are taken as a tool in the effort to conserve these species. While some species might be seen as sustainable with regulated quotas (something I would argue against based on the cruelty of the collecting and shipping and the losses that result from this practice), I don't think anyone would agree with the argument that the unregulated taking of endangered species for the pet trade actually increases the chance of survival of any species.

Of course, this is my opinion only. Richard.



mantisdragon91 said:


> I agree with you if we are wild collecting animals from pristine habitats. What happens if the animals are coming from habitats which no longer exist because of slash and burn farming? How are we the problem in that case?


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## mantisdragon91

Woodsman said:


> Hi Roman,
> 
> If we were collecting frogs with a scientific/conservation permit, we would know where the frogs are from and target collections from as many different populations as possible.
> 
> With unregulated wild-collecting, unscrupulous exporters collect from any area that is accessible (protected pristine or not) and this does have negative pressures on wild populations.
> 
> I would ask you if you know of any professional conservationists or organizations that advocate increasing the quotas of wild Mantellids that are taken as a tool in the effort to conserve these species. While some species might be seen as sustainable with regulated quotas (something I would argue against based on the cruelty of the collecting and shipping and the losses that result from this practice), I don't think anyone would agree with the argument that the unregulated taking of endangered species for the pet trade actually increases the chance of survival of any species.
> 
> Of course, this is my opinion only. Richard.


Rich,

I am not advocating unregulated collecting. But see nothing wrong with supervised collection of animals from an area scheduled for a slash and burn. A number of experts on Malagasy herpfauna agree with this view, Francois Leberre and Chris Raxworthy being among the proponents of this view.


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## Woodsman

We are going to disagree that collecting for the pet trade results in conservation of Mantellids (or any other species). And, as a difference of opinion, I'll leave it at that.

I'll ask Chris if he believes that the huge numbers of frogs that are coming out of Madagascar every year is helping or hurting conservation efforts there and get back to you here what I find out.

Take care for now, Richard.



mantisdragon91 said:


> Rich,
> 
> I am not advocating unregulated collecting. But see nothing wrong with supervised collection of animals from an area scheduled for a slash and burn. A number of experts on Malagasy herpfauna agree with this view, Francois Leberre and Chris Raxworthy being among the proponents of this view.


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## mantisdragon91

Woodsman said:


> We are going to disagree that collecting for the pet trade results in conservation of Mantellids (or any other species). And, as a difference of opinion, I'll leave it at that.
> 
> I'll ask Chris if he believes that the huge numbers of frogs that are coming out of Madagascar every year is helping or hurting conservation efforts there and get back to you here what I find out.
> 
> Take care for now, Richard.


The question you need to ask Chris when you see him is as follows:

"What should be done with animals left displaced by habitat destruction? Should they be left onsite to perish or sent overseas and at least given a fighting chance at survival"

Like everthing else in life the answer will depend on how the question is phrased, and I believe the way I am phrasing it is more accurate portrayal of the actual moral dilemma we are all facing with the ongoing crisis in Madagascar.


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## Philsuma

I'll tell you what that country needs done to it.....tons of photojournalists. F'ing tough, war seasoned ones that snap a f-load of pics and blog and publish the crap out of everything they see.

That's the only way the world is going to see the outrage - thru the eyes and lens of guerilla journalists.

That's the most effective way.....pics of dead land , dead animals and dead habitat a la the BP mess in La.


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## billschwinn

Philsuma said:


> I'll tell you what that country needs done to it.....tons of photojournalists. F'ing tough, war seasoned ones that snap a f-load of pics and blog and publish the crap out of everything they see.
> 
> That's the only way the world is going to see the outrage - thru the eyes and lens of guerilla journalists.
> 
> That's the most effective way.....pics of dead land , dead animals and dead habitat a la the BP mess in La.


Phil in a perfect world what you propose may work but not in Mad. To the world it is a mud hole, 3rd world pit, no one in reality cares about it, why, Money, in the end that is all most care about. There is no money, glitz or glamour to save Madagascar.The most compassionate thing anyone or group can do is clear out the animals and plants before they are turned to dust as has many before them. I like the Idea presented that everyone pick 1 or 2 species and breed them so they will be around when the world realizes they are gone in the wild. I have watched the progress into oblivion going on their for many years, it Will Not improve, to much damage has been done, I would say to all if you want to work with any species from Mad. you better get it soon, beacause I don't think later is going to happen for these amazing animals and plants, Bill


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## mantisdragon91

billschwinn said:


> Phil in a perfect world what you propose may work but not in Mad. To the world it is a mud hole, 3rd world pit, no one in reality cares about it, why, Money, in the end that is all most care about. There is no money, glitz or glamour to save Madagascar.The most compassionate thing anyone or group can do is clear out the animals and plants before they are turned to dust as has many before them. I like the Idea presented that everyone pick 1 or 2 species and breed them so they will be around when the world realizes they are gone in the wild. I have watched the progress into oblivion going on their for many years, it Will Not improve, to much damage has been done, I would say to all if you want to work with any species from Mad. you better get it soon, beacause I don't think later is going to happen for these amazing animals and plants, Bill


To add on to Bill's excellent post, people who are living below the level of subsistence could care less what the world sees, or thinks they just want to survive another day, and while there are some very environmentally concious people living in Madagascar they are in the distinct minority. Think of the established preserves as islands in a rising sea, islands that get a little smaller every year. Cites and USFWS could care less about the facts they just want to enforce their rules regardless of whether the rules make sense or not. Bottom line is every single animal that get displaced by deforestation should be available for export. The island has some weed species like Panther Chameleons, Giant Day Geckos and Tomato frogs but the great majority of species on the island simply can't cope with deforestation and its ludicrious to simply allow them to die because we haven't bothered to establish a realistic cites quota for them for 2011.


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## TDK

stemcellular said:


> I've been working with Devin and Matt M. to sponsor an auction and/or fundraiser to benefit amphibian conservation in Madagascar, specifically, Devin's project there. I'd strongly encourage you to attend, donate and participate.


Devin and others of you that may have traveled that region and know more of the politics etc. What does land cost an acre and is there a possible chance this could be bought out somehow by private individuals, replanted/reworked and protected?


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## mantisdragon91

TDK said:


> Devin and others of you that may have traveled that region and know more of the politics etc. What does land cost an acre and is there a possible chance this could be bought out somehow by private individuals, replanted/reworked and protected?


The challenge is that the concept of ownership can be very vague in Madagascar and depending on who is in power at the moment your land claims may or may no be honored. It has happened in the past with formerly protected "preserves" and I'm sure it will happen again.


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## Philsuma

Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt have literally become *royalty* due to their celebrity. If they back a cause, you can expect financial windfall of a massive level. You can expect political pressure almost the size and scope of NATO.....and there are others...Bono, Costner...whomever.

*Those* are the people that are going to see the dead baby lemurs and cry and then mobilize. I guarantee that that kind of support is going to make a difference over there. There are not enough pics and webs and blogs coming out of there...that's the bottom line. Americans can't even find Madagascar on a map let alone know what kind of awesome wildlife lives there, endemically.

Then you strategically add a bunch of European Celebrities as, France and Germany use Africa to sightsee like we use Central and South America.

If money is all that country needs....then money it shall have ! Just buy up the land and pay people to watch and protect it.


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## Dendro Dave

Wow this sucks, so much unique life in that area  Its funny we'll send in troops to protect oil interests, keep peace, free oppressed peoples, etc...etc... but not the actual ecosystems that all life on this planet depend on. These countries/governments need to be held accountable, they are responsible for protecting resources that sustain life not just there, but everywhere on this planet. Of course we also need to do better getting our own house in order. Maybe the much wasted war on drugs money would be better spend on a war against destruction of the environment.


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## stemcellular

I'm glad to see so much interest and truly hope that all of you will participate in the Frogday fundraiser. See below for an overview provided by Devin. 

"Founded by a group of villagers in 1999, Association Mitsinjo is a community-run conservation organization based around Andasibe in east-central Madagascar. This area is exceptionally rich in frog species, with over 100 found within a 30 km radius of town. Mitsinjo’s goal is to integrate conservation with rural development, conserving the biodiversity of Andasibe while improving the living standards of the rural poor. Activities are diverse and include forest restoration, habitat management, research, ecotourism, and health education, which together have an effect on more than 400 households in the Andasibe-area. Notable projects of national and international importance include restoration activities in the Zahamena-Ankeniheny forest corridor, and management of both Analamaozotra Special Reserve and the Ramsar-protected Torotorofotsy wetlands, which is one of the few places the Critically Endangered golden mantella frog (Mantella aurantiaca) and Endangered yellow mantella (M. crocea) can still be found. 

Most recently, Assocation Mitsinjo has developed a frog conservation project which fits into the national amphibian conservation strategy of ACSAM and the Sahonagasy Action Plan. Mitsinjo’s project has three parts:

1) Develop a biosecure facility in Madagascar for keeping and breeding amphibians and build capacity to manage a future epidemic of chytridiomycosis through ex-situ means in-country. This building will eventually house captive assurance populations of local threatened amphibian species, such as M. aurantiaca and M. crocea. It will also serve as a place to conduct husbandry research on local Andasibe species which have never been kept or bred in captivity before to facilitate the rapid establishment of assurance populations should the need arise in the future (i.e. the amphibian chytrid fungus Bd is introduced to the island).

2) Raise awareness within the local population to the ecological importance of frogs and generate sustainable income through ecotourist activities. While the Andasibe-area may be the frog capitol of the world in terms of species richness and patterns of endemism, few local people are aware of the important ecological roles frogs serve. A separate educational facility will be constructed away from the breeding station to exhibit live frogs to the public and for members of Mitsinjo to conduct educational activities for local school and community groups. Tourists will also be invited to tour the educational facility for a nominal fee with a local guide, thereby generating income to help sustain the project indefinitely.

3) Monitor for the amphibian chytrid fungus Bd in Andasibe to detect when it arrives. Eight members of Mitsinjo have been trained in the techniques used to sample frogs for Bd and will collect data twice a year to be submitted to the University of Antananarivo and processed through rtPCR at a laboratory in Italy by Dr. Franco Andreone. This aspect of the project is part of a nation-wide early detection plan for Bd, with an additional seven sites around Madagascar also being sampled.

Currently (as of January, 2011) only Bd monitoring has commenced, however, the facility to house captive assurance populations and for husbandry research is under construction and due to be completed by the end of the month. Initial species for husbandry research have been selected by the Amphibian Specialist Group of Madagascar (Blommersia blommersae, Boophis tasymena, Heterixalus betsileo and Mantidactylus betsileanus), and will be used for training throughout 2011 to prepare Mitsinjo technicians for managing assurance populations of local threatened species. Construction of this facility was funded through the Association of Zoos and Aquariums Conservation Endowment Fund, and for live food research and field equipment through the Amphibian Ark Seed Grant. 

Mitsinjo now seeks funds for a battery bank and solar panels to ensure electricity remains on when power goes out, a large 1000 l water tank, glass and silicone sealant for aquarium and terrarium construction, and a wage of $100/month for four local technicians throughout the last half of 2011 and into the future. The training of technicians will be assured by Devin Edmonds for the first 2-4 years of the project. Additionally, Mitsinjo also seeks funding to begin the educational component (construction of an educational facility and educational materials, which the Woodland Park Zoo has committed a matching $6400 towards), which will generate income to help sustain the project indefinitely through ecotourist activities."


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## Woodsman

I can't wait to help some folks that are actually working on the conservation of these awesome frogs in the wild! Let's make sure this is a major effort at Frog Day!


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## Rain_Frog

one word: ecotourism.


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## Philsuma

Rain_Frog said:


> one word: ecotourism.


Ecotourism is not possible for Americans....Madagascar is the complete opposite side of the world. Airfare over there is like $4,000.00

Europeans...French, yes.

But not Americans...which brings us back to the heart of the problem. If Madagascar is to stand a chance...it's gonna need Americans and our dollars. Not Francs or Euros....


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## billschwinn

Just a quick note, America is broke! It is time for the rest of the world to start pulling their weight.


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## Philsuma

billschwinn said:


> Just a quick note, America is broke! It is time for the rest of the world to start pulling their weight.


Agree...

It's also time for the U.S to get more of our armed forces back home and make the rest of the world use their treasure and blood for a change.

Kuwait gave us "free gas" for a bunch of years in return for our liberation of their country...then they stopped. They should _still_ be hooking us up, as far as I'm concerned.

But back to my orignial plan of Photojournalists and guerilla bloggers. That would be fiscally feasible....no doubt. BIG bang for the buck there. Imagine....25 different websites and blogs , with hundreds of pics and videos of all the deforrestation, run off, polution, squaller,poverty ect. Every week....every day.


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## Vermfly

billschwinn said:


> Just a quick note, America is broke! It is time for the rest of the world to start pulling their weight.


And if you believe this I have a bridge to sell you.


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## billschwinn

Vermfly said:


> And if you believe this I have a bridge to sell you.


You don't think America is broke?


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## sahona

Philsuma said:


> But back to my orignial plan of Photojournalists and guerilla bloggers. That would be fiscally feasible....no doubt. BIG bang for the buck there. Imagine....25 different websites and blogs , with hundreds of pics and videos of all the deforrestation, run off, polution, squaller,poverty ect. Every week....every day.


Generally speaking, there is already a lot of documentation about severe ecological impacts of human activities. E.g., rose-wood trade in the northeastern region. Regarding the destruction of the Torotorofotsy wetlands: this is classified as RAMSAR site, so it is protected by international convention. 
Here is what Devin told me about the actual problem: the problem that people come and claim this site as 'their' ground that must be converted into an agricultural area isn't new. This happened before. Now, there are heavy vehicles, which is the only thing new about it, and this makes it worse. Devin's opinion was not to make this more public. For one main reason: in this particular case, publicity won't make it better at all - not only that, but it could make the situation even worse. I dont want to go more detailed into it, as i regard his statement a rather private one. It might be also difficult to understand for people who don't know Madagascar from own experience. To bring it on point: the difficult political situation doesn't give support to do anything against the destruction of this wetland. Those people that are involved (either from one or the other side) know that fact. I have been to Madagascar several times. I can't imagine that bringing more blogs and pictures etc. will solve this problem completely. To my understanding, ecotorism is a real alternative to bring money (doens't matter if from a french or an american) into regions where people are nearly completely dependent on subsistence agriculure. A protected area is worthless as you cannot use it for agriculture. Tourism gives an alternative. Just my two cents: visit this country personally. Even if you are from The U.S. A flight from France or Bangkok costs about 1000+.


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## Philsuma

sahona said:


> . For one main reason: in this particular case, publicity won't make it better at all - not only that, but it could make the situation even worse. I dont want to go more detailed into it, as i regard his statement a rather private one. It might be also difficult to understand for people who don't know Madagascar from own experience. To bring it on point: the difficult political situation doesn't give support to do anything against the destruction of this wetland. Those people that are involved (either from one or the other side) know that fact. I have been to Madagascar several times. I can't imagine that bringing more blogs and pictures etc. will solve this problem completely. To my understanding, ecotorism is a real alternative to bring money.


I have no idea why anyone would ever want to "hush up" on anything like this. There is absolutely no chance to effect change or bring about something positive without much more serious awareness. I have no confidence in dealing with any given Banana Republic Government that they throw up, will ever be trusted make a "deal" with anyone over land or natural resources.

No one said that blogs or photojournalism will do anything _completely_....but it's clear (to me at least) that _whatever_ is going on now....just ain't workin'.


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## Philsuma

billschwinn said:


> You don't think America is broke?


Some can argue that Donald Trump is in fact broke, when you reduce all his assets and he is pretty much "America".

So to answer your ? Bill....Yes and no.


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## billschwinn

Philsuma said:


> Some can argue that Donald Trump is in fact broke, when you reduce all his assets and he is pretty much "America".
> 
> So to answer your ? Bill....Yes and no.


Trump is just a shiny object held up to distract people from what really goes on in life and govt. He is broke, his assets being owned by others, he is just a brand. Phil, in case your not aware, our country for years has borrowed massive amounts of money to keep up the facade of the great saviour, here to police, bail out, prop up and defend the world. Our bank, China, is now a little reluctant to offer more credit as we have shown no ability to manage our finances, our great country is really Broke, the notes being held by countries that do not like us. so yes, we are broke, time to let the others start to pick up their end of this mess, after all, so many countries have said they could do things better than us, well I for one would like to see, world, step up, show me, and furthermore, Madagascars problems like so many others cannot be fixed with money, Bill


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## Vermfly

billschwinn said:


> You don't think America is broke?


If this forum was about politics and economics I'd be happy to school you Bill but since it isn't I'll leave it where it is. Your comment belongs in the Thunderdome section starting pointless internet battles where they belong.


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## billschwinn

Vermfly said:


> If this forum was about politics and economics I'd be happy to school you Bill but since it isn't I'll leave it where it is. Your comment belongs in the Thunderdome section starting pointless internet battles where they belong.


Actually I was not trying to be preaching on politics or economics. They are however relevant to the discussion in my opinion, that is why I brought them up, so I think they are fit to be part of this thread on tossing ideas around for the crisis in Madagascar. Money will not fix the situation in my opinion, especially with it being a third world country with a corrupt govt. Setting up breeding groups for as many of the affected animals as possible with interested groups and parties throughout the world would probably be best until a possible solution to the problem on the ground could be worked out if at all possible.I must say I was not looking for a pointless internet battle, I was not trying to offend you when I previously asked a question of you, I thought that forums work by conversing each others viewpoints, wether we agree or disagree with one another, If I am mistaken and I can't speak my mind freely without a cheap shot fired at me telling me where to post then someone should let me know, I am here to converse, offer suggestions and try to help people and animals with knowledge gained from my experiences with animals for more than 25 years.Bill


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## Roadrunner

Ya, we can't even manage our own farmland right and I volunteer at a local wildlife refuge and not many people helping out there. We should worry about our own backyard!


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## fleshfrombone

Philsuma said:


> Ecotourism is not possible for Americans....Madagascar is the complete opposite side of the world. Airfare over there is like $4,000.00
> 
> Europeans...French, yes.
> 
> But not Americans...which brings us back to the heart of the problem. If Madagascar is to stand a chance...it's gonna need Americans and our dollars. Not Francs or Euros....


I like it, frogs helping frogs.


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## Philsuma

fleshfrombone said:


> I like it, frogs helping frogs.


Heh ~

You know where else they are? Costa Rica. I never saw so many Frenchies in my life. They _do_ like the jungle and animals.....and boat racing...

Now let's see em ante up


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## Vermfly

I absolutely agree with you about the problems in Madagascar. I simply disagreed with your tangetial comment about the state of the American economy. 

Getting breeding groups of as many of these species as possible is critical for their survival because I don't have much hope that the problems in Madagascar can be reversed in time to save them. 



billschwinn said:


> Actually I was not trying to be preaching on politics or economics. They are however relevant to the discussion in my opinion, that is why I brought them up, so I think they are fit to be part of this thread on tossing ideas around for the crisis in Madagascar. Money will not fix the situation in my opinion, especially with it being a third world country with a corrupt govt. Setting up breeding groups for as many of the affected animals as possible with interested groups and parties throughout the world would probably be best until a possible solution to the problem on the ground could be worked out if at all possible.I must say I was not looking for a pointless internet battle, I was not trying to offend you when I previously asked a question of you, I thought that forums work by conversing each others viewpoints, wether we agree or disagree with one another, If I am mistaken and I can't speak my mind freely without a cheap shot fired at me telling me where to post then someone should let me know, I am here to converse, offer suggestions and try to help people and animals with knowledge gained from my experiences with animals for more than 25 years.Bill


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## mantisdragon91

Vermfly said:


> I absolutely agree with you about the problems in Madagascar. I simply disagreed with your tangetial comment about the state of the American economy.
> 
> Getting breeding groups of as many of these species as possible is critical for their survival because I don't have much hope that the problems in Madagascar can be reversed in time to save them.


We also need to push the importers to make other species available to us. There are so many other beautiful and criticly threatened species of frogs that we rarely if ever see in this country ( Heterixalus, Boophis, Mantidactylus, etc) Not to mention all the zonosaurs, geckos, chameleons, and others.


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## billschwinn

I could see up front an initial problem with the fact that many people in the animal hobbies come and go with frequency, with not many in it for the long term due to any number of reasons. There would have to be a large enough consortium to be able to absorb someone elses inability to continue with the program. Also I think there should be no restrictions on sales of offspring to reliable homes as there will surely need to be income to help sustain the care of each nuclei group. Any body care to add their feelings on this?


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## mantisdragon91

billschwinn said:


> I could see up front an initial problem with the fact that many people in the animal hobbies come and go with frequency, with not many in it for the long term due to any number of reasons. There would have to be a large enough consortium to be able to absorb someone elses inability to continue with the program. Also I think there should be no restrictions on sales of offspring to reliable homes as there will surely need to be income to help sustain the care of each nuclei group. Any body care to add their feelings on this?


As I mentioned in a previous thread these WC animals ideally should be sold only to experienced breeders with an inspection system similar to what the USDA does for small mammal breeders. They could in turn distribute the offspring as they see fit, but perhaps have a requirement of holding back 25% of all offspring for species assurance programs. Best case scenario would be to have 15-20 dedicated breeders per species who would share best practices as well as info on exactly the number, ages and ratios of what they have and what production they saw in the past year. This would minimize the chances of a species disappearing if one or two people have a bad breeding season or personal disaster. Would be interested in seeing who may be interested in participating in something along these lines and what species they would be willing to commit to sustaining?


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## Philsuma

Roman,

That is exactly the problem with imports in general. There is no way anyone is going to have any say over how and who, the animals go to.

People that pay the big $$ and risk losing thier azz every which way from Sunday over every single time they import, are never going to give any consideration as to who or how they sell, unless your name is "Mr. Money".

Just won't happen

Importers are going to contine to be unregulated and under the radar. I don''t see any possible feasble solution or change coming to importation of exotic animals.....I just don't.


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## mantisdragon91

Philsuma said:


> Roman,
> 
> That is exactly the problem with imports in general. There is no way anyone is going to have any say over how and who, the animals go to.
> 
> People that pay the big $$ and risk losing thier azz every which way from Sunday over every single time they import, are never going to give any consideration as to who or how they sell, unless your name is "Mr. Money".
> 
> Just won't happen
> 
> Importers are going to contine to be unregulated and under the radar. I don''t see any possible feasble solution or change coming to importation of exotic animals.....I just don't.


Phil,

This actually ties in nicely with a couple of posts I had on a previous thread. We all know regulation on imports is coming if not this year then a few year down the road. As a hobby we should all be involved in helping write this regulation and having excemptions written into it for breeders willing to take the time and effort to get USDA certification or something similar.

We all know that most if not all importers could care less about who they sell to. But what happens when the importers are regulated on this as well. Think back to the conversation we had a few weeks ago at the Reading show. The importers will kick and scream at first. But will quickly realize their risk factor will go down and profitability will go up as well if every animal they are bringing in is already spoken for and they don't have to sit on frogs they are not adequately equipped to maintain.

Look at what happened in the exotic bird hobby there has been regulation since at least the early 80's yet look how many species are still available if you know where to look. There has been no imports in at least a generation(other than the occasional knuckle head smuggling parrots) We both know the stuff we keep takes a lot less space, effort and money to work with so at least we know it can be done


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## billschwinn

mantisdragon91 said:


> Phil,
> 
> This actually ties in nicely with a couple of posts I had on a previous thread. We all know regulation on imports is coming if not this year then a few year down the road. As a hobby we should all be involved in helping write this regulation and having excemptions written into it for breeders willing to take the time and effort to get USDA certification or something similar.
> 
> We all know that most if not all importers could care less about who they sell to. But what happens when the importers are regulated on this as well. Think back to the conversation we had a few weeks ago at the Reading show. The importers will kick and scream at first. But will quickly realize their risk factor will go down and profitability will go up as well if every animal they are bringing in is already spoken for and they don't have to sit on frogs they are not adequately equipped to maintain.
> 
> Look at what happened in the exotic bird hobby there has been regulation since at least the early 80's yet look how many species are still available if you know where to look. There has been no imports in at least a generation(other than the occasional knuckle head smuggling parrots) We both know the stuff we keep takes a lot less space, effort and money to work with so at least we know it can be done


Roman , just a quick note. The birds are coming in through Canada on quote unquote captive bred paperwork. So it is not really a success story, they are in fact wild caught birds. Bill


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## NathanB

Theres only so much effort that can go into protecting Madagascar's wildlife. Collecting it for your basement is never going to be high on that list. Be grateful for what you have and support those who have a slight chance of improving the situation. 
Is there a way that mantellas can coexist on these farms?


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## mantisdragon91

billschwinn said:


> Roman , just a quick note. The birds are coming in through Canada on quote unquote captive bred paperwork. So it is not really a success story, they are in fact wild caught birds. Bill


How are they getting around the leg band requirements? I was always under the impression that because of the size of the band they can only be fitted to hatchlings.


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## mantisdragon91

bussardnr said:


> Theres only so much effort that can go into protecting Madagascar's wildlife. Collecting it for your basement is never going to be high on that list. Be grateful for what you have and support those who have a slight chance of improving the situation.
> Is there a way that mantellas can coexist on these farms?


A few of the more "weedier" species can. The majority including Cowani and Aurantiaca can't.


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## skylsdale

billschwinn said:


> I could see up front an initial problem with the fact that many people in the animal hobbies come and go with frequency, with not many in it for the long term due to any number of reasons. There would have to be a large enough consortium to be able to absorb someone elses inability to continue with the program. Also I think there should be no restrictions on sales of offspring to reliable homes as there will surely need to be income to help sustain the care of each nuclei group. Any body care to add their feelings on this?





mantisdragon91 said:


> As I mentioned in a previous thread these WC animals ideally should be sold only to experienced breeders with an inspection system similar to what the USDA does for small mammal breeders. They could in turn distribute the offspring as they see fit, but perhaps have a requirement of holding back 25% of all offspring for species assurance programs. Best case scenario would be to have 15-20 dedicated breeders per species who would share best practices as well as info on exactly the number, ages and ratios of what they have and what production they saw in the past year. This would minimize the chances of a species disappearing if one or two people have a bad breeding season or personal disaster. Would be interested in seeing who may be interested in participating in something along these lines and what species they would be willing to commit to sustaining?


You guys pretty much described the Taxon Management Groups of the ASN: a concerted group of people who work together for the longterm care and management of a particular species (or population within a species), sharing breeding notes, etc...and carefully tracking breeding, trading within the group, etc. Regardless of where the offspring end up, the number of animals kept within the group ensure that a viable longterm captive population will be maintained and secure against boom/bust cycles or folks dropping out of the hobby (and, consequently, the possible loss of their animals from the total captive population). This offers to everyday hobbyists, serving as a network, exactly what zoos do to manage their captive populations.

There has been a TMP (the working document with which the Taxon Mgmt. Group uses as the guide for the care and management of the species) for _Mantella aurantiaca _availablefor a couple years now: Taxon Management Plans | Tree Walkers International The only thing needed is a committed group of individuals to step up and take the reigns to start purposefully managing them in such a way. We don't lack the proper framework...what we lack is folks backing up their ideas/intentions with action and sustained follow-through. From what I've seen the last several years in conversations like this (which come up regularly, and the same old wheel is reinvented just as often) the lack of fortitude to translate the conversation into sustained action is what always seems to be lacking.


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## billschwinn

mantisdragon91 said:


> How are they getting around the leg band requirements? I was always under the impression that because of the size of the band they can only be fitted to hatchlings.


Some of the Parrot types are close banded, but others are not. I do go to bird swaps in central Florida and the amount of obvious WC finches and softbills is amazing. The variety is also huge, with a couple Cuban finch types showing up in Orlando bird show 2 weeks ago.It looks like Pet Farm 1977 all over again. Also their are open bands that can be fitted to adult birds, Bill


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## Rain_Frog

> Theres only so much effort that can go into protecting Madagascar's wildlife. Collecting it for your basement is never going to be high on that list. Be grateful for what you have and support those who have a slight chance of improving the situation.
> Is there a way that mantellas can coexist on these farms?


There was recent research showing that viridis and expectata are from multiple locales and not as endangered. There were more locales of bernhardi discovered and that is why they were allowed to be imported. Individual locales may be threatened though. Viridis are adaptable frogs and have been found on fruit plantations eating Drosophila and beetles.

Cowani and aurantiaca are more sensitive, but the only stable population of cowani resides in a completely deforested area. Cowani themselves are rugged frogs built for plateau life compared to a forest dweller like pulchra or madagascariensis. 

And let us not forget that cowani was directly affected by overexploitation for the pet trade whereas aurantiaca's population rebounded. 

While mantellas might have a chance, other species of herps and especially lemurs which depend on trees have no chance.


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