# new winter shipping box



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I get in at work 2 nice size foam cooler boxes. A medium size box that is 12" x 13" x 14", and a smaller cooler box that fits nicely inside of it.

A little extra insulation along 2 of the sides, a heavy duty 2lb PCM gel pack inside of the smaller cooler, and I'm good to go 





I'm willing to bet that this box will make it through overnight shipping in even the severest weather we get here in the Northeast. Temps will be in the teens here during the day this week, dropping to single digits at night. Going to put it to the test.................without frogs of course


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

How are you planning to test it?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

epiphytes etc. said:


> How are you planning to test it?


Heat the PCM gel pack to 74F, place a temp data logger inside the small cooler, seal it all up, place in my garage for 24 hours.

Granted the box won't be exposed to the outside weather - wind, snow, whatever - but it will be exposed to the cold temps for the entire 24 hour period.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I've read where those packs sort of spike in temps, then drastically fall off...will be interesting to see what your time frame temps will be...Western NY at this time of year ..... hmmm


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

We've shipped sub-zero temps overnight with very similar setup. We added a larger outter cardboard box that gave another layer of insulation where we placed several 72 hr heat packs


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Judy S said:


> I've read where those packs sort of spike in temps, then drastically fall off...will be interesting to see what your time frame temps will be...Western NY at this time of year ..... hmmm


Not sure where you got your information, but the PCM gel packs don't "spike" in temps. They will maintain the 74F temp for "X" amount of time depending on several factors. The hope is that the "X amount of time" will be at least 24 hours, even under extreme conditions.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

pdfCrazy said:


> We've shipped sub-zero temps overnight with very similar setup. We added a larger outter cardboard box that gave another layer of insulation where we placed several 72 hr heat packs


I can certainly see how that will work. But the several heat packs makes it costly.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

I wonder what the shipping cost would be on a box this size and weight.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Aldross said:


> I wonder what the shipping cost would be on a box this size and weight.


It weighs in at a little less than 5 lbs. 

Fed Ex & UPS cost is determined more by box size as opposed to weight so this size box is a little pricey to use with Fed Ex & UPS. But for USPS it ships for between $25-$40.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Aldross said:


> I wonder what the shipping cost would be on a box this size and weight.


Shipping is definitely higher but worth it. I would double box, and use a heat pack in the otter box. I have constructed a nice little box to go inside of of an insulated box out of phase 22 solid panels. It is nice for single frog or 2 pumilo/thumbnail.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> Shipping is definitely higher but worth it. I would double box, and use a heat pack in the otter box. I have constructed a nice little box to go inside of of an insulated box out of phase 22 solid panels. It is nice for single frog or 2 pumilo/thumbnail.


I know it may seem a little surprising, but with the heavy duty PCM gel pack I use heat packs aren't necessary, even in very cold conditions.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

JJuchems said:


> Shipping is definitely higher but worth it. I would double box, and use a heat pack in the otter box. I have constructed a nice little box to go inside of of an insulated box out of phase 22 solid panels. It is nice for single frog or 2 pumilo/thumbnail.


I'll just met up with you. It's cheaper and i get to chat frogs.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

gary1218 said:


> I know it may seem a little surprising, but with the heavy duty PCM gel pack I use heat packs aren't necessary, even in very cold conditions.



I don't think its surprising, but saving $2 is not really worth the risk of shipping a live animal and having it die in transit. I just had an O. sylvatica die due to those only trying to pack with gel. They skimped on packing, using only one sold foam insulator. Winter shipping requires 2, and the ones you have are extremely high grade (sisters work at pharmacy and bother at a hospital). I have a few of them and the good old Omaha Steak boxes.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> I don't think its surprising, but saving $2 is not really worth the risk of shipping a live animal and having it die in transit.


Point taken Jason. I guess I've just never been a big fan of heat packs.

I think in this particular shipping box where the frogs are in a separate box from the heat pack it would work well. But, I normally don't use a double box set up like this. And I know heat packs have a heat spike when first activated. I worry about that heat spike if the frogs and heat pack are in the box together.

Plus, don't heat packs need oxygen to work? If your sealing up a box well to keep the cold out doesn't the oxygen in the box get used up quickly and then the heat packs stop working?

A dozen or so years ago when I raised discus using heat packs was really the only way to ship them. I just remember getting shipments with pencil size holes punched into the box to let some oxygen in to keep the heat packs working. That always seemed counterproductive to me, letting cold air in to a box you were trying to keep warm.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

A box within a box within a box. That's some serious stuff.

Those styrofoam boxes are already pretty insulating. Would putting it inside another styrofoam box increase the insulating capabilities a lot?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

hypostatic said:


> Those styrofoam boxes are already pretty insulating. Would putting it inside another styrofoam box increase the insulating capabilities a lot?


Not really sure. I guess it "seems" logical that it would, but I haven't really done any testing to find out.

I do know that with a single insulated box it really doesn't take much time at all for the inside temp of the box to get to the same as the outside temp, maybe an hour or two. So the key really isn't so much the insulation it's more about the PCM gel pack. It almost seems to me that it's more about keeping the warm temp in rather than keeping the cold temp out.

I haven't played around with my shipping box and temp data logger in a while. Maybe if I get bored this winter I'll find some time for another round of testing


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Unfortunately when I went to set up things yesterday to test this box in the frigid temps we're having the battery in my temp data logger was dead. Since I had already charged the PCM gel pack I came up with a PLAN B. I placed the charged PCM gel in the bottom of the small cooler and placed a container of warm water, about 74-76F, on top of it and then sealed it all up.

The box was placed in my garage for 24 hours. Temps during the day yesterday were in the teens and were single digits last night. When I measured the temp of the water this morning it was 52F. Certainly that's too cold for frogs but all things considered I didn't think that was too bad.

With the temp data logger it would have been nice to see at what time the PCM gel pack started to lose it's ability to keep the temps at 74F.

More testing to come when I get a new battery for the data logger


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

That's very surprising Gary. I was thinking 2 Styrofoam boxes would have been more efficient. Perhaps trying it with 2 PmCs. I am also nOT a fan of heat packs, always got deterred by the possibility of cooking my frogs.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I often use heat packs but never in the same box with the frogs, double boxing in winter is almost a must but I always put heat packs in the outside box. Putting gel packs between heat packs and the frogs will do a lot to even out the temps. I usually put 2 phase 22's in the box with my frogs then a heat pack in the outside box and have had zero issues since I went to this type of package, and I have shipped several times with lows in the teens.
I have also had cold boxes show up with heat packs, so yes they sometimes die without oxygen but they can also be ineffective depending where they are placed.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Very interesting and will be following for future reference.

I've done shipping in the lower 30's where I've used phase 22 packs and one heat pack taped on the lid with a gel pack buffer between the frogs and the pack. It has worked well for me and I also poke one pencil sized hole in the side. I'm with you Gary, as I could see how that could be counter-productive, but has worked out well for me thus far. 

I'm very interested in cold weather shipping techniques and interesting that 2 PCM gel packs would suffice in teen weather conditions. I always overkill my shipments with phase packs, but would rather be safe than sorry I suppose. What exact PCM gel packs are you using and where do you get them from if you don't mind me asking? Is that just additional foam insulation in the outer box? I've seen other methods where they would put frogs and phase packs in the smaller box, then put the heat packs/additional insulation in the outer box. Thanks for posting and your packaging looks great. Looking forward to viewing your results.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Brian317 said:


> What exact PCM gel packs are you using and where do you get them from if you don't mind me asking?


I get them from here - Packaging The one I use is the STT-521-1000. They weigh in at over 2 lbs. They're a little pricey and you have to order a case of 8. But I've been using mine for several years so I've got my money's worth.



Brian317 said:


> Is that just additional foam insulation in the outer box?


Yes, just extra insulation to fill in the empty space.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I do not poke holes in the Styrofoam or box. No issues. I have not had a frog cooking issue if you use the correct 40hr-72hr heat packs and appropriate size box.


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