# Alberta Fog Ban



## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Please take a moment to help...*

Hi! I'm Peter.

Some of you may have seen the thread I started a while back - "Fighting changes to Alberta dart frog legality". http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/in...hting-changes-alberta-dart-frog-legality.html

After sending an 8-page letter to pretty much every appropriate government official in the province, I've finally been promised a meeting with the folks in charge of the laws this upcoming week to present our case.

On that note, a petition has been started to show the folks in charge that there is serious opposition to the changes to the laws. If you could all take a couple of minutes to sign it, it would really help!

https://www.change.org/p/government...utm_source=share_petition&recruiter=226056531

On behalf of all the hobbyists in Alberta, thank you for your support!


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## jungle jewel (Oct 29, 2014)

*Help fight dart frog ban !*

Please sign this petition, to re-legalize Painted (dart) Frogs in Alberta. (All Dendrobatidae and Aromobatidae) Visit Home for more details.

Help fund the fight by donating here https://www.indiegogo.com/…/fight-the-sudden-painted-frog-b… 

Currently Alberta Fish and Wild Life has given until April 30th 2015 to relinquish all controlled frogs. They are not issuing grandfather permits to anyone that has acquired these frogs through legal channels prior to the sudden and unannounced change to the regulations. The AESRD (Alberta Environment and Sustainable Resource Development) who make the sole decision of what animals are controlled in Alberta, did change the regulations within the Fish and wild life act somewhere between June 2013 and Dec 2014. However they did not update any publications on the Queens Printer until December 2014. You can see the change updated here http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/regs/1997_143.pdf (Page 168 part 4 section 6) is where the ruling for the Dart frogs is. It reads “ALL POISON ARROW FROGS (Family Dendrobatidae and Family Aromobatidae) The ESRD made the changes with no consultation with local breeders, local reptile and amphibian societies such as TARAS (The Alberta Reptile and Amphibian Society) or ERAS (Edmonton Reptile and Amphibian Society) There is also no known consultation with any biologists or anyone within the scientific communities that specialize in amphibians. We have provided them documents proving their nontoxic nature in captivity, however the AESRD and Fish and Wild Life have not made any changes to reverse the regulation, and have not arranged to meet with representatives that are working to give consultation to them. They have made claims that they cannot keep up the Taxonomy changes (name changes) a name does not make them dangerous. Names they could verify with CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) which has been operation for over 40 years and is run on a federal level. They also make claims that someone somewhere was hospitalized because of a dart frog (but have provided not proof to this claim. For all we know someone stuck a frog up their nose and needed a doctor to remove it. Another claim they have made is that someone somewhere is feeding frogs alkaloids to make them poisonous, however have not any provided proof. A Lady Bug is toxic, by which I mean they taste bad...They are unwilling to make changes because of an unknown threat. Rather than listen to reason and science. Government officials are crossing their arms and scrunching their faces and saying NO… Because we said so that’s why!! 
How long before they make further changes to ban other non-invasive, nontoxic creatures? How long before other proveniences and states follow this example? Sign the petition and help send the message that the people will be heard, and want proper consultation and due course!!! 
Please like and share this info with as many people as you can!
Happy Frogging!


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*

I already posted a thread about this today, but your title will probably grab more peoples' attention. Rock on!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*

This kind of thing is so exasperating. These people are obviously bureaucrats with nothing better to do and justify trying to justify their positions.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*

Be careful what you wish for. We went through this here in CT for years. They finally relaxed and gave in a bit, now every Petco in the state is selling them in conditions you would have to see to believe, seriously when I go there I can`t even look anymore. 
If you already have frogs enjoy them, they`re not going door to door to take them away and if you want them bad enough there are ways.


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*

Why "painted frogs"? Is this just a PR move? If so, good luck. The common nomenclature for the entire group was pointed out as being incorrect in (at the latest) 1978, but it still has not been commonly accepted. How many people still incorrectly call them poison arrow frogs? There is no evidence of these frogs ever being used for arrows, with arrow being an incorrect etymology issue.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*



easternversant said:


> Why "painted frogs"? Is this just a PR move?


that's what i was thinking when i saw that. i mean, mantellas are referred to as painted frogs, why not dendrobatids?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*

Would signatures from non-Alberta residents even be taken into account?


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*



Dane said:


> Would signatures from non-Alberta residents even be taken into account?


I was just wondering the same thing. It would be nice if all DB members signed, but would they really even matter? 

Fight on Alberta, keep darts legal!!

John


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Be careful what you wish for. We went through this here in CT for years. They finally relaxed and gave in a bit, now every Petco in the state is selling them in conditions you would have to see to believe, seriously when I go there I can`t even look anymore.
> If you already have frogs enjoy them, they`re not going door to door to take them away and if you want them bad enough there are ways.


Dendrobatids (save for _Phyllobates_) had been legal here for years, and the laws were changed recently to make them restricted. We don't want anything new available here - we just want to protect the rights of owners and the lives of frogs already here.


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*



FroggyKnight said:


> I was just wondering the same thing. It would be nice if all DB members signed, but would they really even matter?


It absolutely would - the more support we can show for the petition, the more weight our arguments have. Every little bit helps!


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*



easternversant said:


> Why "painted frogs"? Is this just a PR move? If so, good luck. The common nomenclature for the entire group was pointed out as being incorrect in (at the latest) 1978, but it still has not been commonly accepted. How many people still incorrectly call them poison arrow frogs? There is no evidence of these frogs ever being used for arrows, with arrow being an incorrect etymology issue.


Jason L. Brown called them this in a letter he wrote to help us out - you have issues with the term? Take it up with him.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*



Spidey88 said:


> Jason L. Brown called them this in a letter he wrote to help us out - you have issues with the term? Take it up with him.


Ya know... you should probably avoid rolling your eyes at someone who _actually_ studies dendrobatids and probably _will_ talk to Jason about it if he wants to. His post was one coming from actual experience...


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Re: Help fight dart frog ban !*



carola1155 said:


> Ya know... you should probably avoid rolling your eyes at someone who _actually_ studies dendrobatids and probably _will_ talk to Jason about it if he wants to. His post was one coming from actual experience...


I wasn't trying to be snotty or disdainful, just a little cheeky - obviously something of my intended tone got lost in translation to the keyboard. Perhaps the winky smilie would have been more appropriate.

I'm certainly not arguing against easternversant's points, either - honestly, I agree with them. That being said, Jason _did_ call them this, and thus far I'm just rolling with it, deferring to his experience. In everything I've written to Alberta Environment thus far, I've explained the term when I've used it in place of "dart frog", and have generally avoided it anyway.

I'm not sure if you are "taking a tone with me", but I'm going to assume "no" for the sake of not wanting to create a conflict where none was intended.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

*Alberta bans all dendrobatids*

Recently Alberta has banned all dendrobatid (and apparently Mantella and Atelopus as well) frogs and any owners in the province have until April 30 to relinguish their frogs or have them seized and face fines. They have declared such frogs to be a danger to the population, and the frogs are being shipped out of the province with little to no regard as to where they are sent or where they end up. 

Needless to say, the decision was made with no consultation with breeders, pet stores, permitted facilities (i.e. zoos) or the scientific community, and no notification made to the general public (apart from an update to the list of animals not permitted to own in Alberta).

There is a petition against this movement, but it's only been signed by a relatively meager 944 people, and needs additional support. Anyone here is encouraged to sign, particularly anyone from Canada. 

Oh, and ignore the fact that it erroneously calls them "painted frogs". 

https://www.change.org/p/government-of-alberta-reverse-the-sudden-painted-frog-ban-in-alberta


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

*Re: Alberta bans all dendrobatids*



Phyllobates azureus said:


> Recently Alberta has banned all dendrobatid (and apparently Mantella and Atelopus as well) frogs and any owners in the province have until April 30 to relinguish their frogs or have them seized and face fines. They have declared such frogs to be a danger to the population, and the frogs are being shipped out of the province with little to no regard as to where they are sent or where they end up.
> 
> Needless to say, the decision was made with no consultation with breeders, pet stores, permitted facilities (i.e. zoos) or the scientific community, and no notification made to the general public (apart from an update to the list of animals not permitted to own in Alberta).
> 
> ...


I, and all Albertans, appreciate this. If you want to see where the "painted frogs" thing comes from, follow the links to the article on nohome.ca written by Jason Brown.

Thanks for your support!


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

*Re: Alberta bans all dendrobatids*

yeah a LOT of us already signed the petition ...this is BS, classic example of Government idiocy and lack of education! I hope the zoo's and pet stores are screaming too!


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

*Alberta Frog Ban*

We all need to step up here and sign this petition, and get your friends and family to sign it too! https://www.change.org/p/government...painted-frog-ban-in-alberta?just_created=true luckily the US Gov is hesitent but that doesnt mean you can't be proactive about it! I alerted my local legislature about this issue and you can too! get on their websites and complain about it! do it for our brothers and sisters in Canada and do it for you too! It takes 2 minutes to fill out this petition and another 2 to alert your local legislature about the government lack of foresight on issues like this! Im asking the dendroboard.com devs to type up a standard copy/paste statement about frogs that we can all forward to our local/federal legislatures on this very subject! Serious froggers know that these species are constantly being deforested! the last thing Canada should do it ban a conservation effort to protect these or any species of animal in a controlled environment. please sign the petition and in that same fluent motion write your local govenrment a message that we are not only knowledgeable but able to house these highly/likely endangered species!


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## Igot99problems (Jun 20, 2014)

Wusserton said:


> We all need to step up here and sign this petition, and get your friends and family to sign it too! https://www.change.org/p/government...painted-frog-ban-in-alberta?just_created=true luckily the US Gov is hesitent but that doesnt mean you can't be proactive about it! I alerted my local legislature about this issue and you can too! get on their websites and complain about it! do it for our brothers and sisters in Canada and do it for you too! It takes 2 minutes to fill out this petition and another 2 to alert your local legislature about the government lack of foresight on issues like this! Im asking the dendroboard.com devs to type up a standard copy/paste statement about frogs that we can all forward to our local/federal legislatures on this very subject! Serious froggers know that these species are constantly being deforested! the last thing Canada should do it ban a conservation effort to protect these or any species of animal in a controlled environment. please sign the petition and in that same fluent motion write your local govenrment a message that we are not only knowledgeable but able to house these highly/likely endangered species!


Wow I can't believe they did this without notifying or consulting with anyone!


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## jungle jewel (Oct 29, 2014)

PLEASE !!! IF YOU HAVE NOT YET SIGNED THIS PETETION PLEAST DO SO. EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT A RESIDENT OF ALBERTA THE MORE SIGNATURES WE HAVE THE MORE SUPORT IT SHOWS. THIS IS IMPORTANT. IT WILL NOT STOP AT ALBERTA.




https://www.change.org/p/government...painted-frog-ban-in-alberta?just_created=true 


Thank you
Dawn


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: Alberta bans all dendrobatids*



Wusserton said:


> !I hope the zoo's and pet stores are screaming too!


The only thing the pet stores are going to do is kill them off by the thousands


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

Well, we have a meeting scheduled with the authorities Monday morning. Wish us luck!


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

Hi Brad! 

Good news is we have a meeting with a few Fish and Wildlife higher-ups on Monday! They have currently removed the "April 30th" date, and seem to be keen on negotiations! 

Im really hoping we have some headway on monday! 

Thanks!

On 9 April 2015 at 21:49, Brad wrote:
Any updates on where this is headed politically and socially? I haven't heard much in the last couple of weeks regarding the issue in Alberta Canada and it concerns many in multiple countries as well. Thank you for your effort! I hope this can be resolved in easy fashion as it is a no brainer and hope that together we can prove to political spheres the scientific consensus regarding these frogs.

Brad

Lets keep our fingers crossed that level minded people will listen and understand the lack of danger our frogs have and the implications of not educating those involved in the decision making process.


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

Long story short - we won. _Phyllobates_ will still be illegal, but the the rest of the dendrobatids are now safe again. Thanks to everyone who helped and signed the petition!


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

It's a step in the more correct direction. What was the rationale behind keeping the phyllobates genus illegal?


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

hypostatic said:


> It's a step in the more correct direction. What was the rationale behind keeping the phyllobates genus illegal?


They were illegal before, and the policy folks were nervous about the one-in-a-billion chance of a wild-caught Phyllobates causing problems for someone sometime in the next thousand years. The big thing was keeping the frogs already legally here safe - we still emphasized that Phyllobates frogs were utterly harmless, but conceded keeping them illegal for the peace of mind of the policy folks. We didn't want to risk asking too much.

They actually seem interested, almost eager to have PIJAC and possibly myself involved in further consultation on other changes, so we may be able to effect change down the road in that regard.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

What's the PIJAC? And if you ever need me to sign another petition, I'll be happy to do it lol.


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## Spidey88 (Feb 9, 2015)

hypostatic said:


> What's the PIJAC? And if you ever need me to sign another petition, I'll be happy to do it lol.


The Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council. Good group doing good work.


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## Mildster (Jun 3, 2013)

*Re: Please take a moment to help...*

Your government cracks me up. How many have been killed by guns... Lets keep those legal.. But don't you dare have Phyllobates or we will strike down upon you. Rational? Well, an European might differ


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

That's how things are here in the wild west


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