# Researching P. vittatus



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I am interested in P. vittatus. I contacted a Sponsor and they said that the frogs they have are from Eric (pl259). Has anyone heard of him? I was hoping to get as much background info as possible before I go further...

Thanks for the help!

JBear


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Eric is the moderator, pl259 or something like that (sorry Eric!). I believe his frogs came from Aaron (frogfarm) but could be mistaken.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

stemcellular said:


> Eric is the moderator, pl259 or something like that (sorry Eric!). I believe his frogs came from Aaron (frogfarm) but could be mistaken.


Thank you so much! This helps a lot! I will try and PM Eric! Is there a list of Mods somewhere, or will I have to search his name for posts?

Thanks!

JBear


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Hi, My P. Vittatus are from Aaron's Frogfarm. As I understand it there are two lines in the US. You can check the TWI site for more details. 
Taxon Management Plans | Tree Walkers International

Mine are from the Mike Shrom line.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

pl259 said:


> Hi, My P. Vittatus are from Aaron's Frogfarm. As I understand it there are two lines in the US. You can check the TWI site for more details.
> Taxon Management Plans | Tree Walkers International
> 
> Mine are from the Mike Shrom line.


Thank you so much for the rapid response, and the details!

JBear


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

The two forms of this species were just individuals selectively breed from cb animals imported in the 1980's and perhaps some earlier wc animals. It was a moderately common and easily breed species when I got into the hobby in the mid-1980's and I'm fairly certain most of the animals around, if not all of them, can be traced back to Dale Bertram. Check out the old issue of the ISSD and you'll see them for sale there and perhaps be able to track importations from sale ads there. 

Best,

Chuck


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

chuckpowell said:


> The two forms of this species were just individuals selectively breed from cb animals imported in the 1980's and perhaps some earlier wc animals. It was a moderately common and easily breed species when I got into the hobby in the mid-1980's and I'm fairly certain most of the animals around, if not all of them, can be traced back to Dale Bertram. Check out the old issue of the ISSD and you'll see them for sale there and perhaps be able to track importations from sale ads there.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


Thanks a lot! I appreciate the feedback!

JBear


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

These are great frogs, very under rated in the hobby. My old group that fell prey to the ice storm a couple years ago came from Sports_Doc and had very nice red compared to some others I've seen. It might be worth trying some superpig supplements to brighten them up...but either way great frogs, much more impressive in person then in pics (Like many darts). Do well in groups also, so even better.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> These are great frogs, very under rated in the hobby. My old group that fell prey to the ice storm a couple years ago came from Sports_Doc and had very nice red compared to some others I've seen. It might be worth trying some superpig supplements to brighten them up...but either way great frogs, much more impressive in person then in pics (Like many darts). Do well in groups also, so even better.


When I saw them I was blown away by them! The frogs I saw(Thanks Nick!) were very young(and VERY tiny). Though they were so small, the colors were true and clear...It was just something to see for anyone who appreciates natural beauty...

Can't wait to work with this species! I like the fact that they stay small, but not too small! Also I have heard that the call of the male is both easily heard and pleasant.

JBear


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> When I saw them I was blown away by them! The frogs I saw(Thanks Nick!) were very young(and VERY tiny). Though they were so small, the colors were true and clear...It was just something to see for anyone who appreciates natural beauty...
> 
> Can't wait to work with this species! I like the fact that they stay small, but not too small! Also I have heard that the call of the male is both easily heard and pleasant.
> 
> JBear


Hey J! You're welcome! Glad I could help to encourage ur interest in these frogs.

I will say tho, if u want a frog that u will see all the time and be as bold as your cobalts, then these ARE NOT the frogs u want ... go with the leucs from ur mom.

I have 8 (soon to be 9) of them in a 50gal and I RARELY ever see them, its almost like having an empty tank. Seriously. They always r hiding and I may catch a glimpse of 1 a couple times a week and that only lasts for a few seconds until they realize I'm watching and dash off into cover. So much in fact to the point that I've been considering only keeping a few and moving them to a smaller tank and selling/trading the rest. (which means I will have to tear down my tank just to find them all). :-(

The couple I have seen are getting big (only about 5-6mo old) and almost the size of my 2yr old female.

For everyone else, my 2yr Female is of copper/yellow color, and the others r more of a red/orange color.

Nick Gamble


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Nick,

Interesting to hear about your vittatus observations.

My colony group of 7-9 are very outgoing and bold - so much so, that I can touch them all with a finger whenever I want. I see them out at all times, even when I'm cleaning their glass. I haven't tried, but I bet I could feed them FF from my palm.

Now...

When they were small and in a viv without leaf litter....then yes....they were not near as bold.

Do you have a lot of large magnolia leaves? Layers of leave?

That may help, if you don't...


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Ours are about 1 1/2 years old and are just starting to get bolder. We have heard calling and that is pretty sweet. We don't see them as much as we would like to, but the tank doesn't have enough cover for them. We're going to be building them a new tank, more suited to their needs. The frog room doesn't get enough traffic either and we're moving it to the basement shortly. That said, there's no way in hell they're going anywhere. I don't care if I see them once a week. They're to beautiful to give up...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

yeah....the sounds -squeeks and 2-3 different calls alone, makes this species a must have in my book.

I also think the bright copper stripe and the blue reticulated legs are very striking.

Little pit bulls when feeding too.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks for sharing personal experiences! Can people post pics of their vivs they keep Vitts in? Maybe this will help to answer why some are shy and some are bold? 

JBear


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

My breeding group was extremely bold. Probably because they were focused on breeding most of the time, as well as being in a room with frequent human traffic. I think mine got pretty accustomed to the big giant head and hands poking around their tank. Even the froglets I'm growing up are out and about. 

The offspring were fairly variable. Stripes ranged from a light yellow to a rich orange. Never what I would call red. 

Hard to find a better four color frog, IMO.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

pl259 said:


> My breeding group was extremely bold. Probably because they were focused on breeding most of the time, as well as being in a room with frequent human traffic. I think mine got pretty accustomed to the big giant head and hands poking around their tank. Even the froglets I'm growing up are out and about.
> 
> The offspring were fairly variable. Stripes ranged from a light yellow to a rich orange. Never what I would call red.
> 
> Hard to find a better four color frog, IMO.


Exactly. Mine were much more bold in their flooded 10g then in their new big tank. Prob because it's much less grown in and a bit drier. Their old tank below:


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Mine were fairly bold. I think I had 4 or 5, don't remember but usually at least one was visible, often several.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Nick,
> 
> Interesting to hear about your vittatus observations.
> 
> ...


Phil - 
Their tank is VERY well planted with LOTS of leaf litter (oak and magnolia ... J has also seen my tank), which is why I say I would have to tear the tank down to find them all bc they have too many places to hide, humidity and temp are fine also ... maybe bc its in a low traffic area? (Moving the tank is not an option)

J-
There was another thread by Leuc11 (?) Asking for vitt tank pics ... my pics r on that post along with my 50gal build post but I will try to post them here also


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Just trying to help....

When discussing "boldness", I would say that 2 timelines would also be significant and worth considering.

1. Age of frogs. I think that 1.5 to 2 years of age could be a "turning point" for max stablility

2. Length of time in viv. Sometimes when frogs are transfered to a different viv, it takes them some time to adjust. Again, I would say 1 year plus would be optimal.

Finally....group dynamics may be forcing your frogs into a hiding mode. Too many females possibly...not enough.....Johnny doesn't like Sally and they both hate Susie. Seriously.

I just hate to see this species that a hit or a bad rap for boldness issues.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

My group of 4 ( which is where 7 of gambles came from) are very bold. They know which corner of the tank food comes from and boldly hop that way any time the tank is opened. Why looking for eggs I have had them pick fruitflies off my hands. 

Their tank is ugly for lack of a better work but functionable. 

Nick gives yours a few more months - they will come around. 

I think they are a very underrated frog.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Do the vitts appreciate a water source? My understanding is that some darts will go into marginal areas more so than others... Is this accurate for vitts?

Thanks for all the feedback, you all are great!

JBear


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Gamble said:


> maybe bc its in a low traffic area?


All of our frogs that are in a high traffic area are way bolder than those that aren't. I believe, being in a high traffic area, does away with the "Flight" instinct over time. They just get used to it/us imo.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Awesome frog! I got a few from black jungle recently. Not shy but not active either from what I can tell. Mine are growing fast though.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> Do the vitts appreciate a water source? My understanding is that some darts will go into marginal areas more so than others... Is this accurate for vitts?
> 
> JBear


Does anyone have input on this? I would like to have all things considered before I begin the build. Thanks!

JBear


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## Natefank (Jun 10, 2010)

i have a group of 3 Vittatus that ive had for about 7 months now and they aren't super bold but have gotten more bold. As soon as i open the top they all come out from hiding, but you wont really see them moving around in the tank. Could be do to not having as many hiding spots as i would like but im building a new tank for them so we'll see. but everyone who comes over and see's them love them


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Just trying to help....
> 
> When discussing "boldness", I would say that 2 timelines would also be significant and worth considering.
> 
> ...


Phil - 

U may have stated the issue ... Time in the tank.

Like I previously stated the Female is 2+ yrs old (and is the most seen) and the others are all 6mo or less but have all been in the tank for mostly the same amount of time (give or take a month or 2) ... sex I don't think would be the issue as they r too young (unless they "know" what sex they r b4 we do?)

Don't get me wrong, I love these frogs and their beauty/personality is very underrated. I love watching them feed when the oppertunity presents itself. 

Porkchop -

So should I feed them in one spot? I feed everyother day (about 75-100 flies) but I spread them out through out the tank to make sure all the younger ones hiding find flies to eat. Just incase they don't come to one central spot.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Gamble said:


> So should I feed them in one spot? I feed everyother day (about 75-100 flies) but I spread them out through out the tank to make sure all the younger ones hiding find flies to eat. Just incase they don't come to one central spot.


Nick-

I feed the majority of flies in 1 spot, but spread the remaining throughout the tank. This way it encourages them to get used to a spot, but also allows those who were not out the chance to forage on the extras...

JBear


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Gamble said:


> Phil -
> 
> U may have stated the issue ... Time in the tank.
> 
> have all been in the tank for mostly the same amount of time (give or take a month or 2)


 
That is absolutely it then. 2 months is way too short for them to be completely acclimated. I know it's hard to wait.....but I would actually say, they need @ a year or so, before they become acclimated, establish territories and breeding roles...and then become truly...."Bold" .


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> Do the vitts appreciate a water source? My understanding is that some darts will go into marginal areas more so than others... Is this accurate for vitts?
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback, you all are great!
> 
> JBear


J-

As u know, I have a waterfall in my tank, but it is not neccessary.
As long as u mist regulary and keep the humidity up ull b fine. The waterfall is more for u then them. Besides, they truly r a pain in the a$$ to maintain too.

FYI I have also heard that vitts like it "wetter" than other frogs, but not so sure as to how true that really is. Anyone else care to chime in?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> That is absolutely it then. 2 months is way to short for them to be completely acclimated. I know it's hard to wait.....but I would actually say, they need @ a year or so, before they become acclimated, establish territories and breeding roles...and then become truly...."Bold" .


Its been a little longer than a couple months, I think u misread what I said, but either way it still isn't even close to a yr tho ... thx for ur input.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jbherpin said:


> Do the vitts appreciate a water source? My understanding is that some darts will go into marginal areas more so than others... Is this accurate for vitts?
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback, you all are great!
> 
> JBear


I believe one of mine used to usually hang out by a waterfall quite a bit, and seems like I'd see other near the pond a lot.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> I believe one of mine used to usually hang out by a waterfall quite a bit, and seems like I'd see other near the pond a lot.


Yes, I've observed a couple of mine have setup shop near the waterfall too, but the majority are scattered throughout the tank.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I have purchased a 3-5 month old froglet from online. I can't wait to see it! I loved Gamble's frogs sooo much! I love the metallic sheen to the stripes and the contrast of color on the legs! I am hoping to revive this thread and encourage some pics of set-ups. It(the tank) is framed out already with the option of a small pool in the front corner. All I need to do is decide on the landscape! I have a nice pothos plant to use, and a ton of smoothed river rock. Some rocks are limestone, some are just standard "true river rocks". What I mean is large slab stones taken from an actual river/stream and are smoothed and rounded, but not in the commercially available way... Also a few pill jars (look through the general topics, a thread I created about this is there...), and some fake rock caves with smooth hard plastic under. This allows me to simply take the cave off, and remove eggs on a sturdy, easy to work with surface for egg removal, and best of all reusable. For egg removal from the plastic, I plan to use a gentle spray to loosen them until they are able to be slid off into appropriate rearing containers.

Please share your specimen and set-up pics! New to this species and want to fill my eyes, head, and tanks with them! LMAO!!!

Thanks!

JBear


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Regarding water features, my Vittatus breeding tank has a large pond in the front. All of my breeding tanks do. Of course while breeding, they used this a lot. I never saw them in it, other than to deposit tads. Half the tank was open, the other half was pretty grown in, with a lot of green leaf cover. The 3.2 group did a lot of egg eating and while they used film containers on the ground, it was the clutches hidden in the leaves that were successful. This was a very prolific setup. It's been four weeks since I sold this group and I'm still pulling froglets. My Vittatus froglet tanks have a wet side and a drier side. They seem to prefer the drier side. 

IMO sex ratio, indirectly has a lot to do with overall boldness of a group. The more possible breeding combinations, the more they think about breeding and the less they worry about other things. Breeding in general makes them bolder. The big pond helped that too. I'd recommend a mostly balanced ratio. That's what worked for me. I know of other Vittatus groups that are very unbalanced and they were not out as much.

I also fed the group on the open side of the tank, from a small dusted ceramic bowl. It was always placed in the same spot. I believe they associated being out and open in that area, with food. Likely a Pavlov conditioning thing.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

pl259 said:


> Regarding water features, my Vittatus breeding tank has a large pond in the front. All of my breeding tanks do. Of course while breeding, they used this a lot. I never saw them in it, other than to deposit tads. Half the tank was open, the other half was pretty grown in, with a lot of green leaf cover. The 3.2 group did a lot of egg eating and while they used film containers on the ground, it was the clutches hidden in the leaves that were successful. This was a very prolific setup. It's been four weeks since I sold this group and I'm still pulling froglets. My Vittatus froglet tanks have a wet side and a drier side. They seem to prefer the drier side.
> 
> IMO sex ratio, indirectly has a lot to do with overall boldness of a group. The more possible breeding combinations, the more they think about breeding and the less they worry about other things. Breeding in general makes them bolder. The big pond helped that too. I'd recommend a mostly balanced ratio. That's what worked for me. I know of other Vittatus groups that are very unbalanced and they were not out as much.
> 
> I also fed the group on the open side of the tank, from a small dusted ceramic bowl. It was always placed in the same spot. I believe they associated being out and open in that area, with food. Likely a Pavlov conditioning thing.


A LOT of great info here, and was exactly the type of info I was interested in! Thank you so much! I ordered Sat. Should I expect it to be packed and shipped on Mon. for a Tue. delivery? I have never ordered a live animal online... I have 0 experience in knowing what to expect! 

I still would love it if members would be willing to share pics...

JBear


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Hi JBear....I recently bought 4 of these little guys at one of our local reptile shows from a dendroboard member who also believes these are awesome/bold frogs. Since mine are froglets, I too won't see them very often. So I will wait and feed. Plenty of springtails in there to munch on. Thanks guys for your input on yours. Here is a picture of mine in a 18" by 
18" by 24" Exo Terra viv. I took this right when I put him into the tank.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I love the tank! Is it a box, a vert, or a standard orientation tank?

JBear


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Thanks. The Exo-Terra tank is 18" wide by 18" deep by 24" high. Plenty big for my little guys.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

What age was the frog pic'd? Looked quite young to me... I have some set-up pics to share. My little gem is due to be delivered tomorrow! I am rediculously excited/impatient! I hope it arrives in good health, and is actively feeding within the first day. 

My intention is add some leaf litter, maybe 1 or 2 climbing limbs, and some strip lighting. Now I am stuck improvising to meet light/heat needs. No worries, although ugly, my "rig" is functional...

Here is a brief build pictorial:

JBear


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Yes, they are little froglets. But they are growing. I finally saw all four of them last night. They have been in their tank now for about 5 weeks. They are consuming the springtails which is great. I have tons in there. 
A suggestion for the front of your tank would be to hide the false bottom. I would have made it about 1" away from the sides so you could add the pebbles/rocks up to the false bottom level or black it out on the sides. The Pothos will grow rapidly. When you get them, don't be surprised if you don't see them very often. They are skittish in their new enviroment for awhile. AND they hide very well!! Be patient and they will explore before your eyes


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Colleen, are you feeding them FFs too? There's no reason you shouldn't be giving them FFs. They pretty much morph out almost ready to eat anything.


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Yes, I do offer them fightless mela's,but it doesn't seem that they are taking them as much as the springtails. I have a piece of banana in the back and the mela's hang out there until they are eaten.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Sounds good. Just wanted to check. Some of my froglets take hydei almost immediately.


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## LemurLad (Jan 22, 2011)

I'm looking to get a few vittatus as my first frogs, so thanks for all this great info everyone.


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