# what is the problem with hybridization?



## Guest (Jan 12, 2005)

Let me first say that i am in no way going to be starting a mized tank of any kind and dont planing on making hybrids...I have noticed that everyone here is 100% against hybridizing, but i was wondering why? The only things i can think of is the possibility of deformities, or everyone would like to preserve the spiecies as is, or that the tads will just not make it or develop. Remember this is just a question out of curiosity. 

-Bryan


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2005)

Its an issue of keeping lines seperate. I doubt many people have ever even thought about the differences between an afghan leopard gecko vs. a pakistan leopard gecko, but I can assure you that no wild leopard gecko morph represents as giant orange genetic mess. Hybridization may be acceptable on some levels (like if the wild populations hybridize), but we have enough work on our hands breeding out what we have.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2005)

I think the most common response is that it's unnatural. In nature the different species would never meet so they would never breed. 

Besides, who wants mutant frogs!


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Hybridization leads to frogs that no longer resemble wild frogs in either appearance or behavior. History in other breeding hobbies has shown that uncontrolled hybridizing creates market forces that lead to the total, or near dissapearance of wild type specimens in the hobby. The very animals that got people interested int he hobby are lost. The culture of the hobby shifts from one of scientific curiousity about nature and natural marvels to one based on profit and ego as people strive to create whatever sells the best or is the most bizzare. This is a fact in many other breeding-based hobbies. Thankfully the PDF hobby is still dominated by people who don't want to see this happen with frogs. We like a hobby that celebrates the amazing characteristics of these animals as nature has forged them rather than what we could transform them into through genetic experiementation.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

These frogs are beautiful enough on their own, no need to hybridize.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

mindcrash said:


> These frogs are beautiful enough on their own, no need to hybridize.


Agree... there are many variety of colors and species that occur naturally...


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

I have had the curiosity of this issue, but for a different scenario. I know a lot or most of the people on the board intend or do breed/raise the eggs/tads. For those people who have no intentions on raising the eggs/tads is everyone still against that? I fully agree that creating hybrids is bad, but mixing in general I don't see a problem with. When I say mixing I'm refering solely to different morphs and species of poison arrow frogs. 
Given that they are all either thumbs or normal sized pdfs, are cb's/quarantined/clean and they have plenty of room, what is the problem if there is one?
I plan to have a 90ish gallon tank with at least two species of PDF's. However I do not have any intention of raising any young. If I do get the urge I'll put the pairs in their own tanks.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Schism said:
 

> I have had the curiosity of this issue, but for a different scenario. I know a lot or most of the people on the board intend or do breed/raise the eggs/tads. For those people who have no intentions on raising the eggs/tads is everyone still against that? I fully agree that creating hybrids is bad, but mixing in general I don't see a problem with. When I say mixing I'm refering solely to different morphs and species of poison arrow frogs.


Mixing frogs is not wrong, it just takes a bit of skill and experience to do it right. On top of the normal challenges of keeping PDF, you are adding the potential for interspecific interactions that may not all be good which is why I feel that it's best to get knowledgeable and comfortable with the species individually before putting them into groups.

The other problem is when mixed groups accidentally breed. Froggers are often reluctant to cull hybrid or unknown frogs. Hybrids might not be obvious by appearance and it just raises the risk that the frogs will get mistakenly mixed back into the "pure" population later. But it is possible to mix species that don't risk producing hybrids. It all just takes skill but often (and I'm not saying this is always the case) the motivation to have mixed tanks is to be able to keep more species without having to set up more vivs., particularly when beginning in the hobby. I personally think that's a mistake.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

That is what I thought the response would be. Personally I am planning on the tank with tincs and azureus, So basically just different morphs. There won't be many frogs for the tank, But I have another tank ready for any potential problems...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Schism said:


> That is what I thought the response would be. Personally I am planning on the tank with tincs and azureus, So basically just different morphs. There won't be many frogs for the tank, But I have another tank ready for any potential problems...


Do you plan to destroy any eggs that might appear? Personally, tinc group mixed tanks worry me more than any others because of the high probability of producing confusing looking hybrids. If eggs are destroyed, it's not a big deal but I've heard people say things like, they will wait to see if the offspring look like hybrids... You can't necessarily tell a hybrid just by looking.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

If i see em I'll destroy them. Actually when I see them I might change my mind on this whole not raising them thing, but I'll pair them off if I do. 
I used to breed chameleons, I know I couldn't have destroyed eggs then, I don't know if it'll be the same this time. But like I said I have another tank ready for breeders if the time comes.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

I am considering keeping G&B auratus with leucs. Since it's a show tank and I'm not breeding, any eggs would be "donated" to my saltwater tank.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

I agree with Brent. In a well planted large enclosure, it is likely that you will miss eggs. If you set up a vivarium of both sexes with species or morphs that can interbreed, you should be prepared to not only cull eggs, but euthanize tads and froglets as well. 
Sometimes that is tough to do...... 


You could keep all animals of the same sex. 
Ed


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2005)

Ed Martin said:


> you should be prepared to not only cull eggs, but euthanize tads and froglets as well.
> Sometimes that is tough to do......
> 
> 
> Ed


Good point.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If there are no water features for tadpole deposition sites, the situation becomes moot as the tadpoles would be unable to survive. This does mean no water features and probably no bromeliads. 

Ed


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

That is a good point. I plan to have a fair amount of water, I might reconsider the species that I ultimately combine.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*My issue with hybridization*

My personal issue with hybridization is people cashing in on unusual hybrids. Without question, many of us value our hobby, and I believe that it is a unique one. Our community is a small one, and the last thing this hobby needs is a black eye from someone out to make a buck by being dishonest. There are a lot of new hobbyists out there who make some great contributions to this hobby. It would tick me off to no end to see someone dupped into spending a few dollars more for a "reticulated, green striped, azure spotted, splash back." When all they are really getting is a mule. Thank God, this is not a common practice (knocking on wood). Our hobby doesn't need the bad press. 
Dave


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: My issue with hybridization*

Just a matter of time unless we stay on top of it.

s


ED's_Fly_Meat_Inc said:


> ... Thank God, this is not a common practice (knocking on wood). Our hobby doesn't need the bad press.
> Dave


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

While hybridization may still be at bay, I would suggest that selective breeding is already taking a strong foot hold.

Examples would be:
- no spot Leucs
- small spot Leucs
- albinism in several species
- red morph Galacs
- 90% orange Galacs

I'm sure that there are more. I would also wonder how many of the Tinc morphs are actually represented in the wild?

Tim


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

TimsViv said:


> While hybridization may still be at bay, I would suggest that selective breeding is already taking a strong foot hold.
> 
> Examples would be:
> - no spot Leucs
> ...


you beat me to it. a lot of folks on this forum will rant and rave about the dangers of hybridization, and meddling with genetics, selective brreding, etc... but then go ahead and pay premium for fine spotted azureus in another thread...

it's gonna happen and there isnt anything that you or i can do about it, frankly. like i said in anotehr thread today, look at the ball python market. that's really done crazy in the ast five or ten years. if you don't think so, go check out http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com. do i like or dislike this state of affairs. it doesn't affect me either way, really. the animals are going to be just as beautiful and their behavior will be no less interesting. are you likely to see everytihng that is in the hobby out there in the wild? no, probably not. but i bet that's already happened. 

i guess i just find it amusing that there is a decent level of hypocrasy involved here... anyone else?

P.S. natural or not... this is a beautiful creature


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Well*

Hypocrasy? Perhaps. But you are arguing two differing points. I have no problems with people breeding frogs. Fine spot azureus with fine spot azureus. Fine. Hypomelansitic vents, sure okay. Albino frogs? If you must. But these are just continuing a line of a mutation. Not a deliberate mixing of species to create a "new morph". There is also the question of intent. Some people are breeding hypomelanistic frogs and I see no problem with it. The frogs seem healthy enough. There are two very reputable breeders out there that are carrying such lines and are observing the animals for signs of adverse traits. They understand the consequences of what they are doing, or they wouldn't do it. And I'm sure that they don't wish to see these animals end up in a bad way somehow. They breed them because they love frogs and they breed them because they are interesting. My issue would come up of these frogs hit the market at $1000 a pop. And I doubt that they will. Dart frogs are not snakes. I think many of us would agree that the money spent creating and purchasing snake morphs has gone out of control. I recall when albino leopard geckos were a grand per. OUCH! But Devin is right the costs are another thread. But I believe that dart frogs should be affordable and available to everyone. It boils down to an ethical question. If people want to cross auratus with leucomelas then I can't stop them. True enough the animals probably are beautiful (I have never seen any except in photos) but just because we can breed them, should we? And it does affect us because when I becomes acceptable then the sky is the limit. And I have a problem with that.
Dave


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

devin mac said:


> you beat me to it. a lot of folks on this forum will rant and rave about the dangers of hybridization, and meddling with genetics, selective brreding, etc... but then go ahead and pay premium for fine spotted azureus in another thread...
> 
> it's gonna happen and there isnt anything that you or i can do about it, frankly. like i said in anotehr thread today, look at the ball python market. that's really done crazy in the ast five or ten years. if you don't think so, go check out http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com. do i like or dislike this state of affairs. it doesn't affect me either way, really. the animals are going to be just as beautiful and their behavior will be no less interesting. are you likely to see everytihng that is in the hobby out there in the wild? no, probably not. but i bet that's already happened.
> 
> ...


I think this is both overly harsh and incorrect. First, I don't know of anyone who is concerned about maintaining wild genetics who would knowingly purchase either a hybrid or a selectively bred animal. The assumption of hypocricy is simply not valid.

Second, it's not true that there isn't anything that can be done about it. Some people have already been working on breeding guidelines and a registry that would allow us to track lineages and maintain the wild types we are concerned about. Once these are in place, then hybrids and selectively bred animals won't pose such a danger to the wild types. But doing this on a purely voluntary basis takes time. Right now our only tool is to do what we can to slow and discourage the formation of the selectively bred and hybridized lines until we have a system that works.

You're right that we can't stop people from doing it. Nor should we. Nobody should have the ultimate word on ethics. But what we SHOULD do is continue to educate people about hybridization and selective breeding. I'm certain that many people who want to maintain wild characteristics are mistakenly selectively breeding animals without fully understanding the consequences. The more people understand how population genetics work in relation to maintaining wild types, the better decisions they can make about buying, breeding, and selling frogs. Everybody wins if we all truly understand what we are doing.

Finally, when the hobby becomes dominated by designer breeders, I'm outa here. I'll check off one more fun activity ruined by greed for the greenback. I already left one hobby because the conversations shifted from discussions about the natural history of the animals to talking about how much money the latest animals were worth or how to get the most awesome colors through a breeding project. It's just not interesting to me so forgive me for fighting for a hobby I happen to enjoy.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: Well*



ED's_Fly_Meat_Inc said:


> Hypocrasy? Perhaps. But you are arguing two differing points. I have no problems with people breeding frogs. Fine spot azureus with fine spot azureus. Fine. Hypomelansitic vents, sure okay. Albino frogs? If you must. But these are just continuing a line of a mutation. Not a deliberate mixing of species to create a "new morph". There is also the question of intent. Some people are breeding hypomelanistic frogs and I see no problem with it. The frogs seem healthy enough. There are two very reputable breeders out there that are carrying such lines and are observing the animals for signs of adverse traits. They understand the consequences of what they are doing, or they wouldn't do it. And I'm sure that they don't wish to see these animals end up in a bad way somehow. They breed them because they love frogs and they breed them because they are interesting. My issue would come up of these frogs hit the market at $1000 a pop. And I doubt that they will. Dart frogs are not snakes. I think many of us would agree that the money spent creating and purchasing snake morphs has gone out of control. I recall when albino leopard geckos were a grand per. OUCH! But Devin is right the costs are another thread. But I believe that dart frogs should be affordable and available to everyone. It boils down to an ethical question. If people want to cross auratus with leucomelas then I can't stop them. True enough the animals probably are beautiful (I have never seen any except in photos) but just because we can breed them, should we? And it does affect us because when I becomes acceptable then the sky is the limit. And I have a problem with that.
> Dave



I agree with Dave here... he said it better than I would...  

People should know the difference between selective breeding: natural occurrence vs designer frogs... The two are not the same!!


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

There are more than a few examples of hybrid darts in the "Jewels of the Rainforest" book, and I can honestly say that none of the hybrids were nearly as good looking as either of the original strains. Hopefully this will be incentive enough to keep people's "experiments" from gaining popularity.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

The real issue that will affect people creating hybrids is: What is the market for such animals? Will the general public pay a premium for a "designer frog"? Or may the reason be that a majority of those that keep PDF's have been in the herp/fish keeping hobby most likely for a while and realize the difference between hybrids and non-hybrids? 

I kind of have the feeling that their may not be a big enough market for designer frogs. The reason most people don't see pdf's in the local pet store is price/size of animal. A premium added on the price will even moreso reduce the likelihood of anyone selling them. 

Hopefully most on the internet where these would likely be seen, would be more saavy/less impulsive (due to sites like this), and be less inclined to puchase them.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2005)

I like what Tim did in his mixed show tank-only have males of the different species; no chance of cross breeding that way! :wink:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "The real issue that will affect people creating hybrids is: What is the market for such animals? Will the general public pay a premium for a "designer frog"? Or may the reason be that a majority of those that keep PDF's have been in the herp/fish keeping hobby most likely for a while and realize the difference between hybrids and non-hybrids?" 

The problem is that they can look very close to "normal" morphs of the frogs. 

Here is a link to some pictures of hybrid frogs so you can see how close they look to one another. 

http://www.tracyhicks.com/EdK.htm

It would not be very difficult at all to market them as either their own new morph (like the "giant auratus" in the second picture down). 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Ed said:


> The problem is that they can look very close to "normal" morphs of the frogs.
> 
> Here is a link to some pictures of hybrid frogs so you can see how close they look to one another.
> 
> ...


Bingo!!!! And the misrepresentation does not have to be intentional. There is another thread current on this forum about someone who purchase two tincs that were sold as auratus! This person was suspicious of their actual identity and is now getting feedback about what morph of tinc they really are. This is very scary!!!! Who knows what kind of hybridized mix these frogs were produced from and now they are in the process of trying to ID them based soley on what they most look like. The person who bought these frogs is trying to do the right thing and figure out what kind of frogs they have, but there is really no way of knowing for sure. Suppose those frogs breed and are sold as whatever morph they most closely match.

I am not so much worried about potential scam artists. They are easier to spot by savvy froggers. I'm more concerned about honest people making honest mistakes because they don't understand the genetics well enough. Education is needed.


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## amphibianfreak (Jul 21, 2004)

Those hybrids are the ugliest things I have ever seen


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

*Re: Well*



ED's_Fly_Meat_Inc said:


> Hypocrasy? Perhaps. But you are arguing two differing points. I have no problems with people breeding frogs. Fine spot azureus with fine spot azureus. Fine. Hypomelansitic vents, sure okay. Albino frogs? If you must. But these are just continuing a line of a mutation. Not a deliberate mixing of species to create a "new morph".


my main point thos is that there is ZERO diffence between a cobalt tinc and a new river tinc except the color. same species, just a different color morph. likewise with albinos, and likewise with the size of the spots on an azureus. hell, even azureus are nearly geneticaly identical to tincs. 

look at this new river and azureus. are you really going ot tell me that these two frogs are a different "species" ? 

again, i just don't see the difference between breeding those two above color morphs and breading two that look completely different. especially since if they actually were different species, they wouldn't breed anyway, either because of genetic or behavioral constraints.

furthermore, the leopard gecko and ball python analogy is actually even closer to what people are going with galacs and azureus anyway, breeding for a select mutation. my mention of hypocasy is directed more towards the attitude that poeple seem to have, looking down on the ball python and leopard gecko selective breeding, while simultaneously reinforcing the selective breeding of darts by paying a premium for fine spot azurs, etc...

i'm not saying i'm for or against people doing this sort fo stuff with their frogs, since as i said before, they're not going to ever stop being some of the most beautiful and interesting creatures on the planet, anyway. if you're that worries about preserving pure bloodlines, it will just have ot be like the dog world. records can be kept, etc... people hybridizing doesn't mean that the "natural" morphs dissapear. just means you have to be more careful who you buy from.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip again, i just don't see the difference between breeding those two above color morphs and breading two that look completely different. especially since if they actually were different species, they wouldn't breed anyway, either because of genetic or behavioral constraints" 

As more and more species complexes end up under DNA analysis, we discover more and more species that are physically indistinguishable from each other. A recent example of this involves slimy salamanders. It wasn't too long ago when it was believed that there was only one species of slimy salamander with some color variation over its range. Upon DNA comparision, it turns out that there looks to be 13 species. 

The rule of supposedly not being able to interbreed as they are different species, should not be used to determine species at this time, as we further our understanding of speciation, this rule has more and more exceptions. Look at jungle corns (corn snake x California kingsnake) not only are the snakes not the same species they are not even the same genus (Pantherophis x Getulus). These species may not interbreed in the wild as they are prevented from mixing spatially. This is not the case in captivity as the barriers are removed. 

Ed


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

also, i think it's worth mentioning that i'm not trying to be confrontational or insulting. i just like to play devil's advocate.

i have to say i honestly agree that specifically crossing these things probably isn't a good idea, nor needed. they're already "designer" straight form the factory. ;-)


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