# Betta and Frogs



## sirfugu (Sep 7, 2004)

Has anyone tried adding a betta to a pond area? I'm working on a 75 gallon and will have a significant pond area where I want to add 4-5 white clouds and maybe a Betta if it would work. So has anyone tried this? Any potential problems?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

aren't bettas extremely territorial? I would hate to see an unlucky dart being torn apart by a betta.


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## ChrisMc (Mar 7, 2004)

The betta probably wont bother the frog but may pick at eggs


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

I think the betta would work fine, but the white clouds will probably require higher water quality standards then you will get with a false bottom set-up.

Tim


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## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

If you were thinking about any species of frogs which cares for their tads, and it decides to trasport the tads to the water, the beta would finish them off before you even knew they were there....


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

I don't think it would work since bettas attack bright colors, it would attack your frog.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

I have a beta fish in my viv...No problems at all. He is huge from the fruitflies and other treats he gets, never tried to attack my Mantella I dont see how he could as he doesnt realy sit in the water, he willjust hop through it once in a while. Even if he did try to attack the mantella he could always jump out of the water, they are relatively smart animals.

Ryan


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## sirfugu (Sep 7, 2004)

I'm thinking about either housing mints or galacs (or both, a whole new discussion) so I don't think there would be any problem with the betta eating the eggs. I'm actually going to have a homemade filtration method so hopefully it will be enough for the white clouds. As far as bettas go they are only territorial to other male bettas or something with similar fins such as a guppy or other gourami. I just wonder what the frogs would think of em. Does anybody know of any other fish that are native to south america that would sorta share water with darts (atleast in the same region)? Cardinals maybe? I know that's broad but any ideas?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

Ya I belive neon tetras are a good choice (rathe I hope cuz that its what I plan on putting in my up coming paludarium). Alot of people seem to have them in their water sections and they add a new color to the tank.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Splash tetras (Copina). 

Ed


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

I believe a betta would be a threat to any transported tadpoles like mentioned above. That would suck, get dropped off by dad just to become some fishes lunch. I think you would be better off going with tetras, maybe guppies, or even bottom suckers like cory cats, and similar fish. It all depends on the depth, and size of pond area.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

sirfugu said:


> Does anybody know of any other fish that are native to south america that would sorta share water with darts (atleast in the same region)? Cardinals maybe? I know that's broad but any ideas?


That's kind of a trick question. The reason darts and other tropical frogs have evolved these advanced parental care behaviors that allow them to lay eggs on land and transport tads to small bodies of water is so they can avoid predation from fish as in the aforementioned tadpole threat. So on the one hand there are many species of fish that share the general range with darts but in general, the darts stay away from them. One species that is widespread through Central and South America that could also tolerate stagnant water like a betta is the common mosquito fish (Gambusia affina) but they aren't as colorful as a betta of course.

Other than the tadpole deal, I don't see how a betta in the waters below could really threaten the dart frogs. However, I would be curious to see these amazing bettas that could be territorial and aggressive toward frogs that outweigh them and rarely enter the water anyway. I guess that's why they call them fighting fish!


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Bettas are quite territorial to their own species and any other fish with long flowing fins and bright colors. They can whip their tails with great force and ram the opponent. I don't think this would really apply to a tad, because they don't have any of these attributes. 

A betta eating a tad? Highly unlikely...Bettas are surface feeders due to their upturned mouth. They basically feed solely on stuff floating on the surface. The other reason the tad should be safe is that they have extremely tiny mouths...betta food is very small so that it can fit into their mouths, much much smaller than any tad.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

I feed my beta mosquito larvae that are not floating, and he chases them and munches them up. Just personal experience says they dont only eat surface food, although he is very good at eating ff's. Also if you are looking for a south american fish look into killies, i am sure you'll find a south american species that they specs of your setup will beable to care for. I dont have any killies yet, but plan on it soon, I think homer knows quite a bit on them if I am not mistaken.


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## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

I can't help but say the only beta I've ever seen whip its tail has been an animated cartoon, and I have kept several betas in my time.

The attack is done entirely with the mouth... in fact betta fins tear very easily on any rough or sharp surfaces... so using the fins as a weapon would cause more harm than good.

There are some fish hobbiests who are obsessed with betas, and some of their advanced setups have useful implications to our tadpole systems, imho. But I think there's been a lot of myth and misinformation in this thread based on incorrect but common cultural perceptions of this fish... something we all hate when it is done to our frogs. I get the impression that many are posting as fact what they have heard from second hand sources, but have never kept the fish. Again, we hate when people come and do that about our frogs.

All of that said, I see no conflict between beta and frog... and only a slight risk between beta and tadpole.

Josh


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

JoshKaptur said:


> But I think there's been a lot of myth and misinformation in this thread based on incorrect but common cultural perceptions of this fish...


I agree Josh, that's what I was trying to get at in a sarcastic manner. The idea of a small aquatic fish posing a threat to a terrestrial frog cracked me up.



> All of that said, I see no conflict between beta and frog... and only a slight risk between beta and tadpole.
> 
> Josh


I don't agree with this though. I don't think a newly hatched and transported tad would last 5 minutes with a betta.... unless those fish are REALLY dumb. Now a larger tad is an entirely different story.


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## Angieownsbatman (Jul 30, 2004)

I might be reeeeeally overestimating the intelligence of a frog here, but is it at all possible that you could provide them with another drop-off site that the betta couldn't get to, and they'd put it there instead because the betta was in the other place? Or maybe you could just make another site that the frogs would like better and simply choose to drop off there?  Then everybody's happy. In a perfect world at least, lol....


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Angieownsbatman said:


> I might be reeeeeally overestimating the intelligence of a frog here, but is it at all possible that you could provide them with another drop-off site that the betta couldn't get to, and they'd put it there instead because the betta was in the other place? Or maybe you could just make another site that the frogs would like better and simply choose to drop off there?  Then everybody's happy. In a perfect world at least, lol....


I don't see why not. I doubt the solution would be 100% so sometimes the tads might get dropped off in the prefered pool and sometimes they would be betta food. I don't see a big problem with losing a few tads to a betta so long as the tads are from a species well established in the hobby.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I personally do not think it is correct to introduce two species that would never meet in the wild. Besides the fact that betta are agressive and would attack a frog in his area and tads. Bettas do enjoy fruit flies! Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> I personally do not think it is correct to introduce two species that would never meet in the wild.


You mean like an auratus and a jewel orchid?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Where people are getting bettas are aggressive is an interesting question. Male bettas are territorial and not that bright, hence attacking similar looking fish. But you can put them in aquariums with most any tropical fish with good success. 

I don't see a betta harming an egg/tad, but that is much more likely than a betta harming a frog. 

My concern is this: Bettas have very slow metabolisms, but not nearly as slow of appetites. One of the biggest problems people have in killing bettas is overfeeding. I think you could run into this problem without knowing. The fish will probably eat all the flies that hit the water, and some other goodies that end up in the water as well. It could lead to problems. 


As for other fish, definitely a huge no on neon tetras, which were mentioned. They are notoriously horrible acclimators. They would be acclimating to a notsoideal environment and probably wouldn't make it. If they did though they are tough once acclimated, but probably not worth the hassle. 
I've kept various tetras in a vivarium with great success. IMO I would say most hardier tetras will do great, if you have a water feature or something to kep o2 levels high. If not a betta is probably the next best choice.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2004)

^^ completely agreed with the above poster.

I used to bred bettas when i was younger, and they are very peaceful fishes. A male betta are only aggressive towards other male bettas, and towards female during breeding. I bet that if a frog was to jump into the water area the betta will run for cover.


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## booga (Sep 19, 2004)

Both types of fish would probably do fine. I saw someone say that white clouds may require higher water quality standards but they really dont. Maybe add some java moss or some aquatic plants to help clean the water. White cloulds are better treated than bettas but are one of the hardiest fish on the market. They can tolerate extreme conditions to a point that its debatable to call them true tropical since they can tolerate low temps, I believe I read in the 40's up to the highest temps for tropicals. They are the easiest fish to breed and rear in the hobby, and even if I were wrong they are cheap so you wouldnt lose much money. The bettas would not mess with your frogs but maybe the eggs if anything. 
My only question would be would the food you feed the fish affect the frogs?

jason


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## sirfugu (Sep 7, 2004)

Thanks all for the replies. I really don't think it will be a problem with the betta, after all they survive in those miserable bowls, a viv is a step up. The white clouds were my second choice because of their low temperature requirements, there won't be much room for a heater. What are the extreme cold temps a betta can take? I may have to put a heater in there anyway. Also wouldn't the frogs lay in a petri dish or brom instead of the water? I plan on raising the tads myself so there really wouldn't be any problems with the betta eating the eggs.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Betta's should be kept around 80F for them to be comfortable, healthy and active. I wouldn't recommend going below 70 with them...


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I do not use jewel orchid in my tanks. 
Later and Happy frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2004)

I have had bettas be aggressive toward long finned goldfish much larger then the betta. This was in a sizeable garden pool. Just a nuisance for the goldfish, as it could easily out swim the betta, however the betta was very persistent. I had to separate them as the goldfish just didn't get much rest.It may be possible, in my opinion, that the tads could be hassled, being similiar to young betta fry. This may be more true with tads such as vents or such. 

Then again, it may be possible that the male betta would even look to care for the tads in the early stages (as they care for their own eggs and young.....up to a certain age, size or time period). I can almost envision a betta trying to pick up a tad and blow it into a bubble nest.

I think it can depend on each individual fish. They each seem to be like any animal in what one will do verus what another will do.

I have had bettas that would try, never successful to grab a housefly and others that would run from same.

My bettas can and do handle any tempature that dart frogs can( I have a book that mentioned a betta being left in a car for a period of time with tempatures just above freezing and the fish was fine....not recommended as a habit of course). They are all kept at room tempature which has gotten into the 50's in late fall before I turn the heat on.

I am not saying to go with the fish or not. I will say, if it were me, it would be the a fish of choice for myself. The eggs and the tads survival being the key deal breaker. It would have to be a situuation for me that I had already bred the frogs and this would or could just be a further birth control measure if it happened, much like leaving tads in the viv. rather than separating them out.

I would think that it would be possible that the frog/s may choose not to deposit into a body of water containing fish, provided it had other sites to do so.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2004)

We bought ~10 white clouds in 10 gallon aquarium when i was like 5 years old and in 10 we haven't bought a nother one, infact I think we might have made money back traiding all the white cloud offspring for neons and other IMHO more "beutifull" tetras.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2004)

I just read in Marc Staniszewskis book "Mantellas" Housing The Paludarium chapter, page 79, he states and I quote : "There is one filter feeding fish however that I have found to be totally harmless and feeds almost exclusively on algae and detritus. The dwarf-sucking catfish (Oticinclus affinis) is a "South American" species that attains 25-30mm and if maintained in a small colony of 4-8, will provide excellent control for algae growth without attacking any mantellas that stray into the water". I realize this is refering to mantellas and does not make a reference of how tads would be with this species of fish.But its tested and proved :!:


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Otos are great fish...be careful with them when you first get them because there tends to be a die off. This is greatly reduced when the tank is already established.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I honestly can't think of any dart frog (other than this one colostethus that I read bred in streams) that would lay in a body of water that would successfully house fish. I don't see them depositing tads in water that deep unless that was their only choice. You could easily put in a shallow bowl elsewhere where they would deposit them or just pull the eggs.

I second the Otto comment, they are my algae eater of choice for small tanks (under 30gal) rather then the common plecos. There are plecos that would do very well (small size ~4in non-aggressive, I have a handful myself) but they are hard to find and many times can be rather pricey. Don't bother putting in algae eaters tho until you actually have an algae problem (major killer of these guys is putting them in a tank with no food!).

As for bettas... with betta splendens (the common overbred ones you find everywhere) the aggressiveness depends on the fish. There are some who will literally kill a tank of fish, then there are some that will be killed by the average tropical fish. Also I don't see fin length being the issue, originally they didn't have very long fins, and would be likely to attack a fish (or other betta species) that looked remotely like what they think a betta looks like (which must have gotten very scewed at some point). Bettas also do best in slightly unkempt, non or low water flow, which is not the habitat the other fish (even white clouds) would like. Think nasty, gross puddle. There are also other betta fish speices (and stillwater fish in general) that you could look at.

I guess I'm also weirded out by the fact that the amount of water going into the pond hasn't been brought up. The best way to judge which fish would be best would be how much active swim area the animals have (white clouds like open water vs. a betta who doesn't mind a smaller puddle). Filtration? Amount of water flow? You have to think of it as a mini fish tank within the larger tank.

I grew up doing freshwater tanks and rarely thought about putting them together (other than a cleaning crew in the form of a loach or otto in my tricolor tanks) because I never thought I had a large enough tank to get away with having a successful fish microsystem set up to go with it. Then again, my idea of the smallest successful tank you could do that with is a 30 gallon.... and if thats the water section you could imagine how big the whole tank would have to be


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> I honestly can't think of any dart frog (other than this one colostethus that I read bred in streams) that would lay in a body of water that would successfully house fish. I don't see them depositing tads in water that deep unless that was their only choice. You could easily put in a shallow bowl elsewhere where they would deposit them or just pull the eggs.


Phyllobates tend to deposit tads in larger pools. Mine routinely deposit in the largest pool in the viv and the froglet morph out nicely without any help from me.


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