# Silicone ?



## Amanda0192 (Aug 7, 2009)

I just went out and bought most of my supplies yesterday that are needed to make the background in my terrarium, but im concerned about the silicone - im not sure if i got the right kind.

is there a "right kind" of silicone that is required ??? i bought it at home depot for like $5 a can --> 2 cans. is there anything that is deffinitely not safe to use ?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

What's the name of it?


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

I have read extensively about silicone on this forum and here are the general results for GE silicone:

Safest
GE I Window and Door 
Moderate
GE II Window and Door <- Do not use for water features to be safe

DO NOT USE
All kinds of Kitchen and Bath

I'm not sure about DAP silicone, but the more "mold killing," the worse for frogs.


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## Amanda0192 (Aug 7, 2009)

rollei said:


> I have read extensively about silicone on this forum and here are the general results for GE silicone:
> 
> Safest
> GE I Window and Door
> ...



hmmm i think im fine. it says "window/door/atic/basement". and that its waterproof. so its either the 1st one or 2nd one but im not doing a water feature due to the fact that this is my 1st viv and i dont want to screw it up ^-^ ill get a different type for my 2nd one just to be safe. and ill try to actually ASK someone who works there next time lol  thanks!


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

What's the brand name?


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## Amanda0192 (Aug 7, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> What's the brand name?


i thinkkk its the GE i keep reading about. so GE II window and door. 
..General Electric Company ?


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

My question would be...............can?

It comes in a tube, like to use with a caulking gun.

Deb


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## Amanda0192 (Aug 7, 2009)

salix said:


> My question would be...............can?
> 
> It comes in a tube, like to use with a caulking gun.
> 
> Deb



can ..? yeah like its in a tube and im guessing i probably need to get the gun lol chances are i have one somewhere around my house though.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

If it says it has a 'mold inhibitor', 'resists mold' or similar claim, no matter which part of the house it is made for, don't use it. The chemicals will perpetually leach out and harm the frogs over time. 
I spent a few more bucks (perhaps needlessly) and did my entire 50G tank with All Aquarium brand silicone. It is expensive but I felt better about it, anyway.


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

Be sure it says " 100% silicone".


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Lots of members here used the GE II with no noticeable troubles, but there is an ingredient in it which might cause harm to the formation of tadpoles. Like was said, make sure it's the 100% silicone one if you're going to use it.


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## vrmarkii (May 20, 2009)

The DAP silicone you want is the window and door 100% silicone rubber sealant. It comes in aluminum, bronze, clear, white, and black. It dosen't have mold inhibitor in it and is food safe when cured. Don't get the PLUS, ALEX, or ALEX PLUS. Any Ace Hardware should have it.


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

I have had great success with this stuff from EMI supply with fish, turtles, frogs, snakes, etc. Cheap as heck, and comes in a good number of colors. I got tired of spending $10 a tube for the stuff at the pet store.

Silicones : Silicones Unlimited SU5005 RTV Food Grade Silicone Adhesive Sealant [SU5005-103] - EMI Supply

Anyone else use this and can back me up here?


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## elscotto (Mar 1, 2005)

earthfrog said:


> If it says it has a 'mold inhibitor', 'resists mold' or similar claim, no matter which part of the house it is made for, don't use it. The chemicals will perpetually leach out and harm the frogs over time.


I have used (and many others have used) GE Silicone II, which has Bioseal mold and mildew protection, for many years with no noticable ill effects. Could you provide the evidence that you have that it "will harm the frogs over time" ? I think this is a myth that just keeps getting repeated over and over, without any substantiation. I'd really like to be directed to the data supporting this. 
Thanks
-Scott


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

elscotto said:


> I have used (and many others have used) GE Silicone II, which has Bioseal mold and mildew protection, for many years with no noticable ill effects. Could you provide the evidence that you have that it "will harm the frogs over time" ? I think this is a myth that just keeps getting repeated over and over, without any substantiation. I'd really like to be directed to the data supporting this.
> Thanks
> -Scott


Pretty much from this post forward: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal-2.html#post318192

Like I said earlier, lots of members used it without noticing anything


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## elscotto (Mar 1, 2005)

ChrisK said:


> Pretty much from this post forward: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal-2.html#post318192
> 
> Like I said earlier, lots of members used it without noticing anything


 Thanks for the link; that was a good thread with a lot of detailed information. But there is still, to the best of my knowledge, no evidence that the product "will kill the frogs". I think when we pass along information in public forums, we should be careful not to make definitive claims unless they can be supported. 
Regarding Silicon II/ Bioseal, I think the concensus is is that there is evidence that under some circumstances that chemical(s) in the product can negetively influence frog eggs or development. That's a very different statement than was made previosly in this thread. My opinion is that the artificial environments that we are breeding dart frogs in have so many aspects that can be improved upon (e.g., nutrition, etc.), that the threat of harm coming from using Bioseal is relatively negligible, at best.
-Scott


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah my concern was more about the deformation of tadpoles like I stated, there doesn't seem to be anything about it harming adults.


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## Amanda0192 (Aug 7, 2009)

wow ive missed a lot in a day lol 

all i know is there isnt any ace hardware store anywhere by me, just home depot. and they have a reallly bad selection. im deff. gonna go back and see if i can exchange the one i got for a diff. kind though, but many recomended the GE II to me so id think it would be fine. for adult frogs anyway like you guys mentioned. i may actually do some research on the product to see if they talk about anything having to do with it harming animals because im curious now.

thanks for all of your diff. inputs though. makes it much easier when people actually paricipate in the different threads lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

elscotto said:


> Thanks for the link; that was a good thread with a lot of detailed information. But there is still, to the best of my knowledge, no evidence that the product "will kill the frogs". I think when we pass along information in public forums, we should be careful not to make definitive claims unless they can be supported.
> Regarding Silicon II/ Bioseal, I think the concensus is is that there is evidence that under some circumstances that chemical(s) in the product can negetively influence frog eggs or development. That's a very different statement than was made previosly in this thread. My opinion is that the artificial environments that we are breeding dart frogs in have so many aspects that can be improved upon (e.g., nutrition, etc.), that the threat of harm coming from using Bioseal is relatively negligible, at best.
> -Scott


Scott, if we can reduce the risk aspect by simply using a different product to remove any risk of exposure to organotins then why is this any different than improving any other aspects of the husbandry? A lot of the items we do to improve the husbandry of the frogs may provide as nebulous a benefit... 
Does the fact that products that lack the organotins are often harder to find justify the potential risk? 

I am deliberately playing devil's advocate here... the literature on the negative effects of organotins is pretty widespread and growing... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you read through the link above it is also a potent inhibitor of aromatase, this can cause SLS or kill embryos but aromatase function is not restricted to developing tadpoles. If aromatase is inhibited in the adult frogs, it can interfere with retinol metabolism which can cause immunosuppression..... 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I think that the known fact that it will harm tadpoles, whose cells are dividing faster than the adults (which makes the effect visible), simply makes it logical to assume that it can harm the adults, even if the effect is not 'visible'. 
Death is a visible failure, genetic damage is often invisible.
That's all I got for you right now.


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## elscotto (Mar 1, 2005)

Ed said:


> Scott, if we can reduce the risk aspect by simply using a different product to remove any risk of exposure to organotins then why is this any different than improving any other aspects of the husbandry? A lot of the items we do to improve the husbandry of the frogs may provide as nebulous a benefit...
> Does the fact that products that lack the organotins are often harder to find justify the potential risk?
> 
> I am deliberately playing devil's advocate here... the literature on the negative effects of organotins is pretty widespread and growing...
> ...


Ed-
Thanks for the incredible amount of info you've provided about the risks of the product (and additionally, for detail that you provide to back up other points you've made in countless other threads). But that is part of my point; when we have strong evidence (that is data, published papers, etc.) to back up a claim (e.g., Bioseal may have biological drawbacks), then we should give the evidence, and leave it as that. Don't take that evidence out of context, or draw further conclusions that aren't necessarily true. This thread reminds me of a thread a while back, where someone who used a particular brand of sphagnum moss and claimed that the moss killed her frogs, because of some problem that arose, and therefore that brand of moss needs to be avoided (I forget the details of the post, but that was the take home message, but a producer of moss was blamed for a problem that likely he/she was not in any way responsible for). I think that providing misinformation is a real disservice to this community.
The way I see is, the way that much of the GE Silicon II is used by the frog community (e.g., adhering coco bark to foam, attaching stuff to background, etc.), there very likely will not be leaching of contaminants, or at least there is no evidence to the contrary.
No, "the fact that products that lack the organotins are often harder to find justify the potential risk?" is not my rational. My rational is that:
1) I've used other silicon based products that did not cure properly when I mixed them with coco husk, etc, so now I generally stick with GE II to avoid that mess;
2) I do not subject eggs or tadpoles to GE silicon II (or a large number of other products);
3) There isn't evidence that I was aware of that GE II "kills frogs", and I was asking for data to support the statement. I was glad folks redirected me to the egg/tadpole studies, which I had read sometime ago but it was useful to see again. 
The bottom line is that I wish we would either give evidence for "facts" that we state, or give opinions, and quantify them as such. For example, "I don't want to risk the potential problems, therefore I'm going to......." I'm not saying that using GE II is without risk; I am saying that let's state any known or resonable risks accurately, so that untruths are not perpetuated, and let's keep risks in perspective.
Again, thanks for the on-going wealth of info; you are a great example of how we should desseminate info.
-Scott


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

quite a few people; said:


> Silicon


Not to be anal, but just wanted to throw in that the "e" on the end of the word silicone makes a big difference in which product we are talking about. Here in Midland, MI, home to Dow Corning and Dow Chemical, we used to have a group of people from the corporations that scanned as much media, etc to make sure people used the terms silicone and Styrofoam correctly. We affectionately called them the Styrofoam police. Because of this, I cringe whenever I see extruded polystyrene labeled Styrofoam, or silicone without the e.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I for one am not claiming that the mold inhibitor kills frogs. I am simply saying that it can harm them and/or tadpoles. While I don't have any further evidence for you other than what has been posted, it's just my stance that I use something that says 100% silicone.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

elscotto said:


> Ed-
> No, "the fact that products that lack the organotins are often harder to find justify the potential risk?" is not my rational. My rational is that:


Hi Scott, 
I should have been clearer, that was not meant to be directed at you personally, but I have seen that rational posted on here because there have been no direct observed negative effects on adult frogs. 

Having a biochem background, the problem I see is that a potential negative like aromatase inhibition in adult frogs is not going to cause a obvious link of problems as it can interfere with lipid uptake and therefore retinol, D3 and E absorbtion as well as fatty acids. This is going to be a issue that is not going to manifest itself in a obvious manner but in theory could cause issues that are then attributed to bad supplements, inadequate feeding, improper temperatures (higher metabolic needs), immunosuppression and improper provisioning of the eggs to name a few off of the top of my head. If we can eliminate this theoretical risk to the frogs by simply using a different product then how is this different than any of the other paths we use in attempting to ensure better health of the frogs... like rotating supplements or adding retinol to the diet as many anurans demonstrate hypovitaminosis of A (as retinol) in captivity.... 

Some further comments,

Ed


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## Zip (Jul 19, 2009)

earthfrog said:


> I spent a few more bucks (perhaps needlessly) and did my entire 50G tank with All Aquarium brand silicone. It is expensive but I felt better about it, anyway.



I just did the same thing on my 30 gallon.... 
four tubes of aquarium grade [email protected] a tube....
Expensive but worth every penny to know that you're not putting something in the tank that could possibly kill your PDFs...
Zip


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Zip said:


> I just did the same thing on my 30 gallon....
> four tubes of aquarium grade [email protected] a tube....
> Expensive but worth every penny to know that you're not putting something in the tank that could possibly kill your PDFs...
> Zip


It is highly improbable that the mildew inhibitor is going to be the direct cause of death of the frogs and the other potentials discussed above were theoretical.. in any case it would be very difficult to prove that the mildicide killed the frogs given the way it acts as it would be easier to attribute the cause to disease, improper supplementation etc.. 


Ed


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## Zip (Jul 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> It is highly improbable that the mildew inhibitor is going to be the direct cause of death of the frogs and the other potentials discussed above were theoretical.. in any case it would be very difficult to prove that the mildicide killed the frogs given the way it acts as it would be easier to attribute the cause to disease, improper supplementation etc..
> 
> 
> Ed


Your first sentence states it all for me.....
"Highly improbable" 
Why take the chance???
Why do tank manufacturers use sealant that is non mold inhibiting? 
Why do they market the stuff that's mold inhibiting? 
I'm not going to attempt to prove anyone wrong by using anything that could (keyword: COULD) poison my ground, water, kill my frogs, or harm my plants.


What I've seen from the whole range of animal keeping from aquariums to terrarriums......(10+ years of aquarium keeping, which has included sealing of 15+ tanks) Everyone who I've been in contact with in the business of aquarium keeping and tank maintenance says "Do not use any silicone with mold inhibitors!"


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

I have used GE silicone II roof and blacktop for years now with no ill effects.. Eggs have been hatching in these vivs since the first clutch and I have never had a frog morph with SLS.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ab1502 said:


> I have used GE silicone II roof and blacktop for years now with no ill effects.. Eggs have been hatching in these vivs since the first clutch and I have never had a frog morph with SLS.


And none of the eggs have ever failed to develop? You have had hatch and metamorph rate approaching 100% ???..... What is you hatch and metamorph rate? 

In any case this does not prove that there are no subclinical issues from the product... 

Ed


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