# Pumilio froglet - pull or leave?



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Re-reading this thread and thinking about all my pum mortality and succeses......

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...how-do-you-raise-pumilio-froglets-survey.html


I've pulled about 20 froglets at "early ages" and lost @ 12.

I'm now leaving them all in the parental viv until they are almost as big as the parents and have only lost 1 or 2.

Big difference.

thoughts?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i leave them in for about 4-6 months, depends on big they get and wether or not the parents show any aggression towards them, i have yet to lose any.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I currently have at least 5 froglets in my Cauchero viv of 1.2

The adults commonly either step on the froglets and often stand on top of them. The froglets don't seem to be hurt at all and treat it as an inconvenience only - going back to feeding on springs as soon as the adult moves off or when they seperate. 

I think it's natural.

I think another key is to feed springs and isopods HEAVY every day....sometimes twice a day regardless of how well you _think_ the viv is seeded. The more food, the happier everyone is....


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## dflorian (May 15, 2009)

I lost my first two left with the parents. Reason. The tank didn't have a sufficient springtail load to support the little guys. Since getting springtails established and feeding regularly I have yet to lose any left in with the parents.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

true, but my froglets come out of the water a pretty good size and most start taking melanos right way, a good rule of thumb is to feed the springs in the tank as well, i throw in mushroom slices from time to time


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

This is a very interesting topic. How does keeping the froglets with the parents benefit them?? Is it mostly avoiding stress from transfer or are there other reasons?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ulisesfrb said:


> This is a very interesting topic. How does keeping the froglets with the parents benefit them?? Is it mostly avoiding stress from transfer or are there other reasons?


If I had to guess...I would say stress is a large part of it.

The tiny froglets transfered in a viv without larger adults seem to hide more and feed less IMO.

Maybe the adults feeding gives the froglets more of a sense of security and the ability to feed more often and effectively.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

could froglets live off springtails as mine seem to eat only ! but now calcium intake is a issue .. i havent jumped onboard with clay and yadda yadda but are we still give calcium glut drops as back up ?? thats the question that deters my thoughts , most of my older pums will attack the shiznit out of springs and ignore the flies .... then when i let the springs die down they then eat a few flies but i see them getting skinnier , so whats better fat frogs on springs or skinny frogs on flies? if both food options are avail my popas and basti will pick springs , cayos eat everything lol


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

im of the opinion that it really depends on the morph. hardy morphs like man creek, cauchero, basti, etc. that have large metamorphs seem to IMO do fine when pulled immediately (when offered a WELL seeded tank) others like, guarmo, darklands, solarte etc. that have tiny and fragile froglets, should be left in the tank IMO.

i pull almost all of my MC froglets and experience losses only when there is competition from substantially larger froglets. losses @ around 15% when pulled. but that # is getting lower as time goes on.

james


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I try to keep a culture or 2 of "older runty" melanogaster so I can get dusted small items for all froglets as soon as possible. I think Mike S. actually did a thread on dusting springtails but I am not good at culturing springs enough to have that many to be able to harvest and dust them.

That said....I try to keep at least 2 16oz deli cup spring cx and 2 iso cx for every single pumilio viv. I try to feed out from both types every single day...sometimes 2x a day when there is a lot of frogs like that Cauchero viv above.

Seeding a viv can only take you so far. How sure can anyone be that the seeded population is producing decent numbers? I always seed the vivs when I set them up and re-seed at times but all of that still doesn't mean that additional stuff shouldn't be added at regular intervals.


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

you know you have pumilio froglets if your springtail containers are greater or equal to fruit fly containers ... well that was a stupid post lol ... id rather see them eat something rather then have them get skinny ! just wish there was amiracle way to give springs and other micros to frogs but have them give same nutrients as frosted flies ! mmmm frosted flakes .. ok good night !


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm currently dusting springtails to feed to some small Azureus froglets. They seem skeptical of dusted FF's but after eating the dusted springs they started eating better on the FF's.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Vermfly said:


> I'm currently dusting springtails to feed to some small Azureus froglets. They seem skeptical of dusted FF's but after eating the dusted springs they started eating better on the FF's.


Cliff....please make a thread and take some pics of your procedure ect, if you could please.

Dusting springtails is very much needed.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I think on the larger springtails like blacks dusting would work on really well, but they're almost as big as a ff, just thinner, pinks and tropical whites might be doable to since they're a little large


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

ChrisK said:


> I think on the larger springtails like blacks dusting would work on really well, but they're almost as big as a ff, just thinner, pinks and tropical whites might be doable to since they're a little large


I think the key is Quantity of springtails to be dusted. I remember seeing a couple guys culture methods with literally, a whole handfull of springs. Even tiny temperate. If you had such a huge amount, you could dust them.


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Cliff....please make a thread and take some pics of your procedure ect, if you could please.
> 
> Dusting springtails is very much needed.


Sure, Phil. I'll have my wife take pictures as I'm going through it later today. But I'll include a short walk-through here.

The biggest thing is making sure you feed the springs on the big lumps of charcoal on top. That way you can pick those up with springs covering them and let the springtails just jump off into the container you are dusting in. After rolling them around in the Repashy Calcium Plus I use one of the scoop straws from 7/11 as mentioned in the "important husbandry tools" thread. You roll them till a little to concentrate the dusted springs and then scoop up a bit of them. If you tilt the scoop up the springs have a tendency to kind of roll themselves toward the straw part and once they are inside you can scrape the excess dust off the scoop and transfer the springs to viv. You don't get a ton at a time so it can take some effort but I hope to figure out a way to do easier by the time I get thumbnails and pumilios where that will be the main food for the froglets.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i have rpersonally never dusted any springs, but i have also not experience any calcium issues with any of the froglets that morph out, mainly because the parents get really well dusted flies, the key is to make sure the parents have great nutrional from the very begining and that will transend to the offsprings.


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

I agree with Julio that feeding the springs in the tank is the best way to keep the population up. I feed mushroooms and fruit (the fruit is for the fruitflies but the springs get to eat the mold and other things that grow on it). I also like to keep any rotting brom leaves or other plants from the tanks and throw them right on top of the other leaf litter. I have also found the benefit of using leaves such as maple that break down quickly since they help keep the populations up too.

I am not sure how to tell if you have a good population in the tank, however I can see them all over the place and they appear to almost be as many in the tanks as in my cultures.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Good topic

A few points that came to mind:

1. The need to feed springtails daily, supports the recommendation to keep obligates in LARGE vivs. Sizes substantial enough to support breeding population of isopods. 90+ gal I would suspect. [Old teachings from Brent Brock from TWI].
--Personally I cant imagine clay based or 'fortified' substrates help unless U are reproducing and maintaining isopods in the viv., but under those circumstances they seem at least theoretically helpful.

2. I've heard the argument that one should 'switch' obligate froglets to dusted FF ASAP, and quite literally _avoid _feeding isopods after their initial vulnerable period [2-3 week oow]. 
--rationale behind this is to get them 'on' dusted food-sources quickly before any detrimental effects of Vit deficiency take hold [insert another long debate on clay based substrates in large enclosures].
--perhaps this is not the case if one could [easily] dust springtails [which I've done with some but limited success in 190cc containers and I have no idea if they live long after the dousing ].

My _current _strategy is to leave the froglets in the tank until they are large enough to ship [5-6 mo].


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I agree with the 5-6 month window. I'm not so sure it is so simple as just food size, though. I have had well started froglets that I pulled and moved to seperate enclosures crawling with mites, springtails, etc. and they withered away. I wouldn't be surprised if the offspring acquire some 'beneficial bacteria' or similar by being in the same enclosure as the parents, enabling them to hardy up and mature more successfully. Purely speculative, of course.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

skylsdale said:


> I agree with the 5-6 month window. I'm not so sure it is so simple as just food size, though. I have had well started froglets that I pulled and moved to seperate enclosures crawling with mites, springtails, etc. and they withered away. I wouldn't be surprised if the offspring acquire some 'beneficial bacteria' or similar by being in the same enclosure as the parents, enabling them to hardy up and mature more successfully. Purely speculative, of course.


I feel the same about this issue. It does seem to be more than nutrition somehow....

I think stress is a big part. I observe feeding froglets in the leaf litter getting stepped on and sometimes pushed around by the adults but they always seem to come right back to feeding and are out and about much more often then when I used to transfer the froglets to their own grow outs.


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