# The meaning of 'Proven'



## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

i was wondering exactly what the work proven means in realation to frog pairs. i've seen some ads saying they have proven pairs for sale, but they have only produced eggs not tads or froglets. is that what proven means, just eggs? i thought it meant that they have proven themselves as breeders and their eggs have made it successfully into healthy froglets. can anybody clarify?


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

themann42 said:


> i was wondering exactly what the work proven means in realation to frog pairs. i've seen some ads saying they have proven pairs for sale, but they have only produced eggs not tads or froglets. is that what proven means, just eggs? i thought it meant that they have proven themselves as breeders and their eggs have made it successfully into healthy froglets. can anybody clarify?


My understanding of "proven" is that the pair is a male and female (obvious, sometimes...) and that they have laid eggs. I do not expect that the eggs will be viable--too many factors contribute to that.
Scott


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

My understanding is the same as Scott's, but I believe I like Adam's definition better. I guess the proven part comes from proven that they are a pair, not necessarily proven that they are breeders that have produced froglets, or at least that's how I understood it.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

In my eyes, "proven" frogs are ones that have produced eggs, and those eggs have at least *started* to develop. There are too many things that can go wrong after that point with the eggs that are independant of the breeding capabilities of the parents. As Scott mentioned, raising tads successfully to froglets is dependant upon the environment of the tads, and with the partial exception of egg-feeders, is also independant of the behavior/nature of the frogs.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

For me if you have a male & female that's a PAIR. If they have produced fertlized eggs that's a PROVEN pair.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

A pair can mean anything. A sexed pair is visually sexed(which can be less than 100% accurate depending on the one doing the sexing and obviously the species). A proven pair is a pair that has proven to be a pair(male calling and female laying eggs). From their you need descriptors ie: a proven pair that has produced either eggs, tads or froglets. If you have 2 pumilio in one tank and find eggs you either have to see the eggs start to form or a calling male for a proven pair. Could be the same w/ other species but I`ve only witnessed eggs being layed by pumilio w/out a male.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

This seems to be a good topic to have been brought. After seeing some of the replies here if I ever happen to buy a "proven" pair I'm going to ask a lot more questions that I would have previously. I guess it's BUYER BEWARE


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

gary1218 said:


> For me if you have a male & female that's a PAIR. If they have produced fertlized eggs that's a PROVEN pair.


+1

Only having produced infertile eggs is not my definition of "proven". I have had males that struggled to get the job done and I would NEVER sell him as proven nor without full disclosure.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Proven pair means just that, they have proven they are a pair. There is a whole range after they prove that. There are tons of environmental and husbandry reasons that could be attributed to not producing good eggs, tads or young. Even if they don`t produce well they are still a proven pair by definition.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

frogfarm said:


> Proven pair means just that, they have proven they are a pair. There is a whole range after they prove that. There are tons of environmental and husbandry reasons that could be attributed to not producing good eggs, tads or young. Even if they don`t produce well they are still a proven pair by definition.


YEP, I can live with that.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Proven means they are capable of producing fertile eggs, be it proven male or female they must have been involved in a clutch that developed to some point.
Knowing the sex of a frog would be considered "confirmed" as in I have a confirmed male or female, even a confirmed pair. There is always a chance (though it should not be high) that a frog is not fertile, which is why proven should only be used when a frog has proved it's viability.
I would argue that proven should be taken to the poiint of getting offspring out of the water however husbandry aside that is another discussion.
Selling an animal as proven only because the sex is known is like telling someone you have 5 lines of Azureus just because you have 5 pairs set up.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Now your adding words to the phrase. Proven VIABLE pair would mean they produced offspring or tads or eggs that started forming. proven pair means just that, there is a calling male and a female laying eggs. they have proven to be a pair. there is solid evidence there is a male and female present, nothing else. Adding viable denoted there has been some motion toward success in getting eggs to form. If they have eggs starting to form they are a viable pair. they have the potantial to produce good offspring. I`m not making this up I`m only defining the terms using the lowest level to qualify as the descriptor.
Besides, I`ve never had anyone buy a pair off me who didn`t ask their background. 
Proven pair means nothing w/out their history.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Proven viable is redundant, calling a male or female proven without confirmation on their ability to reproduce is meaningless. Aaron you are right when you say there should be discussions between those buying/selling as to what someone is getting exactly. 
When I see an add that says proven I assume they have gotten offspring or at the very least eggs that have developed to some point. Knowing the sex of an animal for sale is very valuable information, especially with respect to egg feeders but to call an animal proven without any knowledge of viability is misleading.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I understand underhandedness. I`m trying to teach the meanings of phrases commonly used by definition. if you brought someone to court and said they lied about what they sold you they would ask exactly what you bought and they would lay out by definition what is a proven breeding pair? what`s proven other than they are a pair and they are breeding. there is no descriptor as to the level of viablility of what they are producing when the sale was made. they have proven they are a pair thru breeding. 
If you got sold a proven VIABLE breeding pair you are starting to describe the level success they have had. viable meaning they can produce stuff that can live. maybe viable isn`t the exact descriptor but there needs to be more words to describe the level of success more accurately. in horses and donkeys and mules a horse and donkey can produce a mule which is a non viable offspring so the horse donkey pair is a viable breeding pair though non of there offspring would be. Viable would refer to the offspring produced although not a viable line. both a pair of mules and the cross pair are breeding pairs just that only one will produce offspring. The problem is that there are more levels of success and sexing than terms commonly in play. the divisions may be seen differently between individuals(shoot we can`t even get people to agree on morph/population names and that`s blatantly obvious visually) but in a court of law there are only 3 words there. so your saying proven denotes offspring(another noun not present, assumed). by your def a breeding pair is a pair and a proven breeding pair means they have produced offspring. does that mean they have produced viable tads or tads that have turned into viable froglets or proven in the sense past mmost histos where you get viable breeding adaults before you can call them proven? see what I mean. too many levels and no one will agree on all the terms and there boundaries. 
So a proven pair would be? out of 4 animals in one tank 2 wrestle with each other and the other 2 wrestle w/ each other and the opposites get along and display the correct size difference and toepad difference and the smaller 2 call while wrestling. have they then proven thru behavior other than breeding that they are a pair or are they a probable pair? 
Too many levels of pairs and sexing. but proven pair could mean a breeding pair a pair proven thru calling and dancing etc. only one is proven thru behavior other than breeding and visual cues but it`s still a proven pair, depending how loose you interpret.
is proven an adverb or an adjective describing the action of breeding or the pair.
have they proven they are a pair or have they proven some level of breeding? if level of breeding more descriptors are needed to quantify no qualify the action.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

it`s all sets and subsets and one set can have various subsets and subsets can overlap different 2-3 term phrases(sets).
I had to show it as complicated as possible to drive home the point that you have to get specific breeding history, no matter what. each short phrase represents the broadest description of anything that can be in that set and the more descriptors added the closer you get to the actual truth.
I had a customer locally say they were getting a "pair" of azureus from a local store for $100. I said I sold them those azureus and I know what they paid when they paid it and I told her they would not sell a "sexed pair for breeding" at that price and to ask them if they`ve seen the male call and female lay eggs or whether they we`re sexed according to toepads and what size they are before they drive all that way. well she did ask and they started getting defensive. I know because they sold me my first "pair" of auratus and I have a hard time sexing them now as adults and no one there 15 years ago knew how to sex tincs let alone auratus and they turned out to be a "pair" of females. I`ve been in this business a while and I want everyone to realize this hobby, not specifically this hobby, but reptiles in general, is worse than used cars. Don`t expect to get the best specimen of what your being described unless you know personally how they are or know thru someone you trust.
basically if someone is selling you a "pair" don`t assume they are a breeding pair, sexed pair or anything other than 2 of something.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

So as you can see, what a "proven" pair means will vary from the breeder (or distributor) you are purchasing the frogs from. Always ask.

I think everyone has valid points in this discussion - and a great topic to be brought up.


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

While we are on the subject, can anyone tell me what a probable pair is?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

A probable pair is a pair of frogs that have been sexed based on the breeders experience of identifying frog sexes (usually visually) - toe pad size, body shape, lack of calling, etc.

No definitive evidence has been observed (calling, egg laying, courting) - so the sexes are labeled as being "probable".


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

Thanks for the info.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

For 20+ years proven has always meant that frogs have produced offspring, I don't think I have ever seen an ad for a viable pair. This terminology has really not changed but as so many more people get in the hobby a standardization of terms becomes more important so that everyone can understand the status of their animals and as Aaron mentioned discussions between buyers and sellers is imperative.
When an animal's sex has been determined it is a confirmed animal, either male or female.
Proven has always meant it has proved itself which in frogs only relates to breeding activity.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

What`s the percentage of frogs that have not produced good eggs and how long do they stay that way? there must not be very many confirmed sexed animals before they become proven. and how long they remain at proven status(which seems to be the state of producing good offspring. If your taking spindly leg froglets out of the proven category you can never assess the state of a pair because they are 3 months behind on showing their proven status. 
so you see the fact of ever producing eggs that formed is about as useless as assessing the health of the animals as to whether they are at an overbred state and will produce any more eggs and tads that will make it full stage. the whole division of sexed and proven for me was to assess the certainty that I had male and female not to get any dilusions of future success dependant on the current assessed state of health thru current state of production
It just seems like a much more even distribution when you have unsexed, sexed and proven meaning too small to be sexed, sexable which can last months to years and tehn proven breeders which is every stage from getting eggs and calling on. There is no way to attach quality to any definition so that proven breeders means only animals that are producing or have the potential to produce well. remember heat and a # of chemicals can sterilize animals that are proven. sometime the health is so jeapordized thru nutrition(lack of) that the proven breeder term looses its meaning. once their "proven" they`re proven no matter what their health and possibility of breeding is.
someone on the board who have some frogs of mine on breeding loan and a customer of mine had a thing over a "proven" pair of aurataenia. they told him they never got any good eggs from them and he said they weren`t proven. I told them to tell him I have frogs out of the water i`m selling from them and they are proven. so were they proven since they weren`t producing good eggs yet after the move?


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## topherlove (Jul 14, 2006)

:lol:


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

.....i'm done.......


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

My understanding of the term 'proven' is that, if the animal has ever produced offspring, at any time in its life, its considered proven. Basically, proven is that the animal has shown to be capable of producing viable eggs/sperm through the production of offspring.

A proven pair would be a male and female that had produced healthy offspring with EACH OTHER. They could each have produced offspring with other animals, but then would be a proven male and proven female. As soon as they made nookie and produced offspring with each other, they would be a proven pair.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

That`s great. If someone buys a proven pair from you they now know what they`re getting and when the group of people breeding frogs was small that may have sufficed. I have seen proven pairs offered w/ the comment"they have not produced good offspring" more than once or asked for background on the proven pair and found they never produced good offspring. It may be the confusion between proven breeding pair and proven pair, I don`t know. All I know is that there is no hard line across the board as to what denotes proven breeding pair. Make sure you know what you are getting. Don`t just expect everyone to have the same definition. 
I used to think proven pair meant that they had produced good offspring too. I have been misled more than once over this and my only point is don`t take any terms commonly used to be universal unless you see it in a glossary and then confirm that whoever you are dealing with is on the same page.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Yah, I understand how these definitions are seemingly open to interpretation. The buyer just needs to insure that he/she is getting what he/she thinks they are. 

On a side note, my 3.1 D. pumilio were sold to me as 2 proven males and 2 proven females. Figure that one out! :lol:


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Sorry just had to do it.
Theman42 you asked what the term proven means, in this hobby it means that the animal has produced offspring....period.

If someone uses it in a different way then they are either intentionally misleading you or they don't understand what the term means so you should confirm their understanding of the term before any transaction is made.

People using the term improperly in the past does not change the definition, frogs in groups can be proven groups but individuals would be hard pressed unless they were the lone male/female in that group that produced offspring.
Young animals can also produce several bad clutches before they produce viable ones so they can go to a proven status where early on they would not be considered as such.

And then there can always be a bunch of bizarre sets of circumstances that do not change the above definition.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> Sorry just had to do it.
> Theman42 you asked what the term proven means, in this hobby it means that the animal has produced offspring....period.


your right, he did ask what proven means in the hobby, and I`m saying to expect it to mean they have laid eggs. I`ve never seen the definition written out and when it`s passed on word of mouth expect people to misinterpret and some to misuse it and only expect the least possible qualification of how it can be interpretted. 
If you were talking hypothetically what does proven mean, it means nothing. They could be malnurished or overbred or a slew of other things that cause them to not breed well for you.
Don`t rely on one phrase terms to describe a frog, get a history.
Why don`t we have a glossery on this board of common terms?
never mind, found it. it`s just missing these terms.

I`m on the same page with you mark. I`m just stating that everyone doesn`t see it that way and even w/ a glossary here, everyone won`t so get your history before purchase.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18524

Anything not listed can easily be added. The only thing is that there would have to be a concensus agreement on the definition.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

uh-oh, agree on something? That`s been "proven" to be near impossible on this board! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> I can't believe it, it looks like I got a proven pair of imitators!!!!! (I for sure knew I had a male because Anoroch was calling his head off, but now this.... ) I found two clumps of eggs on a big leaf when I woke up this morning, and I didn't think anything of my two frogs who seemed to be pairing off yesterday, this must be why! And the last couple of days I was feeling kind of down, because I thought I was the only one without breeding, but now Im not!!! YAY


see! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## mattmcdole (Nov 28, 2006)

Everywhere else in herpetoculture, 'proven' means that an animal (usually female, as these tend to be more desirable in other animals) or pair/group has produced offspring. 

I am relatively new to PDF culture, and I have to admit that this is one of my biggest peeves about froggers. Common terms and common uses of said terms mean squat around here; there is no standard. And to be honest, stating that something is proven is useless if I still have to play twenty questions to find out if this is actually the case.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I think the word proven should mean just that. The male has proven he is a male from calling and the female has proven herself by laying eggs. I think this word gets thrown around way to much. Thats why when I have a pair that has layed fertile eggs and morphed out babies I call it a BREEDING pair. This helps eliminate some confusion between people. Just because an animal has proven itself to lay eggs does not mean it has produced viable offspring. Another thing was someone wrote that a "proven pair" should mean that the parents have raised successful babies. I dont believe this to be true at all. 90% of eggs that are layed in the hobby are raised by humans and not the frogs. So if this were to be true and you had a proven pair who layed good clutches for 10 years they would never be "proven" because they didnt morph out the froglets. I think we should really come up with terms that people will follow.

Probable pair = with your expertise they look to be male and female

Proven pair = Male has been seen calling and female has layed eggs

Breeding pair = Male and female together have successfuly layed and fertilised good eggs

Thats my 2 cents  
Jason


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

See, everywhere else in herpetoculture there is internal fertilization too. 
usually they need a male to stimulate egg laying, fertile or not( iknow, chameleons and a few others), and everywhere else you can probe, see hemipenes etc. to tell the sex of an animal. so proven is an easier term to define. here there are different steps in the process which haven`t fully been settled as to which stage constitutes which term. This hobby is a little different and more complex and trying to define things w/ a shortage of terms. the terminology is a little more complex to deal w/ the difference in breeding biology. It suits the hobby.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Aaron I am assuming you agree with me on this matter? I really think something needs to be done to clarify what is what. With all the new people everyday to the hobby alot of terms get misused. I know from my past I never assumed proven meant that the frogs I bought would breed only they have layed eggs or have called before. Always ask the person you are buying your frogs from if they have produced fertile clutches or not.
Jason


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`m only playing devils advocate here. I could care less as I always explain the background usually without asking or ask when i trade or buy, if I care. Everyone won`t get it right no matter what. we are adding to the glossary as soon as we can decide what constitutes what.
Personally I think breeding pair refers to a pair of sexed animals that are or have bred. Proven breeding pair goes further to say they have produced life, whether tads, eggs forming etc. usually its an environmental factor or nutrition or young that keep them from becoming froglets. They have proven tehy can produce life. further would be to say viable proven breeding pair as in they have produced offspring that can produce offspring when worrying about inbreeding or hybridization producing sterile lines. the last is more of a sarcastic joke than anything else.
There are a few other terms we`re working on too.
I think the cabtive born should be divided into tank raised, artificially reared or farm raised too since a lot of importers are classifying farm raised as captive born and some people are artificially rearing pumilio(egg yolk feeding). I get people asking why my cb pumilio are 125 and pets whatever wholesalers are $60ea. it`s because they loop their farm raised under captive born.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Very good points Aaron. I agree with you 100 % with the clarification of all you mentioned.
Jason


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Captive born would be farm raised, etc. Your pums would be captive bred. 

Are farm-raised frogs collected as eggs, and then raised and hatched? If so, they would be captive born. Im not really sure if collected tads would still be 'captive born', as Ive only really had experience with animals that do not have a larval stage. 

Captive bred means the mating that produced the offspring occurred in captivity.

I like this topic.  I honestly just assumed that the terms would be as they are in the rest of the herp world. :wink:


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

No farm raised would be captive bred as they breed them in greenhouses. they are captive while breeding. If INIBICO catches tads or eggs they would be wild caught, technically. Since they put out film vials and deposition sites they are technically trapping them, which is least harmful to their environment. They would be taking an animal from the wild which was born in the wild.
Captive born would be a chameleon who came in gravid and laid eggs. they bred in the wild and were born in captivity. which is a misnomer since eggs are laid not born. actually thats captive hatched. now I`m confused. If rhacodactylus trachyrynchus came in wild caught and had babies they would be captive born since they have a live birth. I don`t know if its a placental method or if they incubate eggs inside them but still...
some use cb(captive born) and cbb ( captive bred and born).


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## jschroeder (Mar 19, 2005)

> Probable pair = with your expertise they look to be male and female
> 
> Proven pair = Male has been seen calling and female has layed eggs
> 
> Breeding pair = Male and female together have successfuly layed and fertilised good eggs


 I agree with Jason on his definitions, they seem to be the easiest and the ones that I always use when selling frogs. Anyone buying should be asking questions about the animals they are getting and I have never had a sale where either I didn't disclosed my definition of what I had or the buyer asked me what I meant by "proven".

BTW, doesn't anybody buy froglets anymore? lol. But thats a topic for another day.......

Justin


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

oh, i love it. 
O.K. let me see if I can keep this strait in my head this early. If proven means sexes and not good offspring, they would first prove their sexes then start good breeding starting as proven and becoming proven breeding. Adding the breeding descriptor when they accomplished that state well(good offspring). If proven means offspring they would start out as breeding(when they have proven their sexes first w/ calling and bad eggs) and become proven breeding or proven pair. Starting out as breeding and becoming proven breeders makes more sense. Your then addin another descriptor and you can drop the "breeding" part out because proven is a catch all. BUT the first thing they "prove" is their sexes thru breeding and laying eggs. Which some are confusing, i think.
So, are they proving their sex first and then getting the breeding thing down or are they breeding first then proving they can be good parents or viable parents.
I`d say if they prove their sexes thru breeding and never gain good status they are still a "breeding" pair but does breeding constitute good offspring or just the action of breeding. This is where the confusion lies. 
I think that breeding should be the first stage and proven should constitute life. 
There are 2 other points I wanted to make in favor of this but my brain would explode. :lol: :lol: :lol: 
Any more thoughts?


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

I think that everyone is thinking too hard on this one!!! lol


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