# Has this ever happened to you??



## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Some back story..

. I posted an ad awhile back looking for proven pairs of thumbs.. As I have been breeding tincs for awhile now and wanted to venture out. I was pm'd about buying multiple frogs.. To make a long story short I ended up buying a proven pair of Oyapocks ... Amongst other thumbs too.. 

So the seller sent me the frogs ...they arrived and looked great. 

I didn't have enough tanks available so I had to house the pair of Oyapocks in a nice size Rubbermaid with spag. Moss. Plant clippings . And multiple coco huts. 

So here is where the " has this ever happens to you " comes in..

The first night the oyas. Arrived I was observing them and watched the male follow the female into a coco hut. If I saw any of my other tinc pairs do this I would be looking for eggs the next morning.  but I didn't think anything of it since they had only been in the Rubbermaid for a couple hours. 

So the next day I was misting the "tank" and I couldn't find the male. So I lifted the hut and there he was with 7 eggs!!!  I'm sure I disturbed him for doing his business but I was amazed!! The first night 7 eggs. This has never happened to me before.

So has this ever happened to you?? Let's hear your story.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Wow thats awesome.
Ive had calling & courting the first night but nothing more.

Congrats!


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i bought a female for my "presumed" male. the minute i put them two together he just about mounts her. then after that he was just calling all night. she was following him around like a lost puppy. i checked under the coco hut the next day and there was 4 eggs. all 4 eggs made it and hatched, and now all 4 are froglets. its pretty cool.


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Gamble said:


> Wow thats awesome.
> Ive had calling & courting the first night but nothing more.
> 
> Congrats!


Thanks!! I was surprised to say the least!


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

whitethumb said:


> i bought a female for my "presumed" male. the minute i put them two together he just about mounts her. then after that he was just calling all night. she was following him around like a lost puppy. i checked under the coco hut the next day and there was 4 eggs. all 4 eggs made it and hatched, and now all 4 are froglets. its pretty cool.



Congrats on the froglets!! I left the clutch in with them because they didn't look fertilized yet. Hopefully The male did his thing


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

I would like to see a study done on stress induced breeding. Ive had the same effects with a couple pairs.


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Dizzle21 said:


> I would like to see a study done on stress induced breeding. Ive had the same effects with a couple pairs.



It would be interesting. I don't know How common this situation is amongst the hobby


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

Ive herd numerous storys of probable pairs that never breed, then once shipped to the new owners they laid eggs withen the week. Happened with me a couple times


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Dizzle21 said:


> Ive herd numerous storys of probable pairs that never breed, then once shipped to the new owners they laid eggs withen the week. Happened with me a couple times


Yep all the time.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

jknight said:


> I left the clutch in with them because they didn't look fertilized yet. Hopefully The male did his thing



http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...391-auratus-breeding-male-secretes-first.html


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Dizzle21 said:


> Ive herd numerous storys of probable pairs that never breed, then once shipped to the new owners they laid eggs withen the week. Happened with me a couple times


I received a probable pair of obligate feeders a few years ago and had the same scenario happen.


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

frogmanroth said:


> Yep all the time.


Dang lamasi....


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I think its the rubbermaid!  same thing happened with my azureus...Male mounted and called in a matter of seconds, then eggs that next morning.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jknight said:


> So the next day I was misting the "tank" and I couldn't find the male. So I lifted the hut and there he was with 7 eggs!!!  I'm sure I disturbed him for doing his business but I was amazed!! The first night 7 eggs. This has never happened to me before.


If the jelly mass around the eggs had begun to swell it would be too late for him to fertilize the eggs. Sperm deposition has to occur either before the eggs are laid or as they are laid as otherwise the hydrated jelly mass prevents the sperm from penetrating to the egg. Sperm motility is actually enhanced during the initial hydration of the jelly mass but after that point, sperm motility tends to be reduced or prevented altogether. 

Ed


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Dizzle21 said:


> Ive herd numerous storys of probable pairs that never breed, then once shipped to the new owners they laid eggs withen the week. Happened with me a couple times


Had no idea it was so common... I've had many pairs sent to me over the years. This is a first for me


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Ed said:


> If the jelly mass around the eggs had begun to swell it would be too late for him to fertilize the eggs. Sperm deposition has to occur either before the eggs are laid or as they are laid as otherwise the hydrated jelly mass prevents the sperm from penetrating to the egg. Sperm motility is actually enhanced during the initial hydration of the jelly mass but after that point, sperm motility tends to be reduced or prevented altogether.
> 
> Ed




Hmm.. I thought I read on the board. That males will fertilize eggs even days after the female lays them. I guess I have more to learn lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jknight said:


> Hmm.. I thought I read on the board. That males will fertilize eggs even days after the female lays them. I guess I have more to learn lol


 
Part of the voodoo husbandry that has grown up around the frogs.. like male pumilio calling females over to feed tadpoles...... 

Ed


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

This happened to me with my Santa Isabellas but I got 22 eggs, and they are now tads. Good luck with them. 

2.2 bassleri 2.3 E.A Santa Isabella 1.1 tinctorious Patricia 0.1 Green Sipplewini 0.0.3 Leucs


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Ed said:


> Part of the voodoo husbandry that has grown up around the frogs.. like male pumilio calling females over to feed tadpoles......
> 
> Ed



I appreciate your input! Glad I know real husbandry now rather then voodoo


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Buddysfrogs said:


> This happened to me with my Santa Isabellas but I got 22 eggs, and they are now tads. Good luck with them.
> 
> 2.2 bassleri 2.3 E.A Santa Isabella 1.1 tinctorious Patricia 0.1 Green Sipplewini 0.0.3 Leucs




22! Awesome! 6 of the 7 eggs look to be good from my clutch. Fingers crossed


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

Good luck. Lol

2.2 bassleri 2.3 E.A Santa Isabella 1.1 tinctorious Patricia 0.1 Green Sipplewini 0.0.3 Leucs


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Ed said:


> Part of the voodoo husbandry that has grown up around the frogs.. like male pumilio calling females over to feed tadpoles......
> 
> Ed


So when I witnessed a male pumilio calling non-stop a couple inches up from where a tad was thrashing about until a female came over and began feeding....that was just a "voo-doo" coincidence?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

randommind said:


> So when I witnessed a male pumilio calling non-stop a couple inches up from where a tad was thrashing about until a female came over and began feeding....that was just a "voo-doo" coincidence?


The voodoo is the interpretation and subsequent belief that the male is calling the female over to feed the tadpole instead of looking at is as an coincidence due to the artifact of the artificial conditions (and are contrary to the natural biology and behavior of the frogs). 

If we look at it from the point of view of the known biology we get a different picture 
1) tadpoles thrash around and beg for food when the stimulus of an adult pumilio approaches thier deposition site (see Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, Volume 66, Number 2 - SpringerLink) so the tadpole begins to thrash regardless if it is the male or the female..... (coincidence number 1 being treated as causality).. 

2) tadpole deposition sites and male calling perches are forced together spatially in captivity when in the wild they are often significantly displaced from one another (tens of meters in a number of documented cases) (coincidence #1 being treated as causality...) 

3) males do not accompany the female in the wild around to the deposition sites (well documented that they do not) so there is no pressure to evolve the behavior (and significant pressures to not engage in the pressure including caloric losses in addition to calling and territorial defence) (continuation of coincidence #2)

4) males call whenever a potential breeding female approaches.... (coincidence #3 being treated as causality....) 

I can tease out the other references if needed..... but the belief that the male is calling the female to feed the tadpole is nothing but a voodoo husbandry belief... 


Ed


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