# EXTREMELY skinny pumilio



## Jennifer (Dec 1, 2008)

Hello all,

I am new to the site and currently have a "blue jeans" strawberry dart frog. He is only a few months old and has been looking skinnier and skinnier lately. He also isn't very active at all and I never see him eat. There are no other frogs in his tank. I do feed him fruit flies dusted with miner-all. I contacted Dr. Frye and he suggested to send a fecal sample asap. I wonder if putting the frog in a smaller temporary enclosure would be okay to better collect feces, or if that would be too stressful for him. Is a 10 gallon terrarium too large for a small pumilio? Perhaps he has been having trouble finding the food...although I do see lots of flies in there all the time. Since he is super super skinny is there even a chance he can get healthy again?  Please, any responses would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

I personally don't think any tank can be too big for a frog to find food. Think about in nature, were there are hundreds of acres in which they can wander.

That being said, a temporary enclosure is what he needs right now. Take a Tupperware box, line it with moist paper towel and put some cork pieces and vine cuttings in there for him to hide under. That way, you can better monitor his food intake, he can find it easily, and fecal collection will be a snap. Just be sure to change the towel every few days. There is hope of his recovery.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Hello there Jennifer .. 

First off transfer him to a smaller enclosure and start feeding hime some springtails, he might not be eating the fruit flies well if he is too small ... this is a risk ofcourse and he might seize when you do this but it might be your only choice. 

Second get some calcium glutonae and use it on him, just do a research on dendroboard and it will give you the instructions on how to. Also send some fecal samples to Dr Frye and then take it from there.

Third this could be caused by a few factors . Tank is too hot , too cold, not enough hiding spaces , lack of calcium and vitamins etc ... so try and think of anything else it could be besides him not eating .... unless you see him eat fruit flies ? 

Hope this helps ... and ofcourse lastly do not call him Blue Jean Pumilio as that is most likely mislabaled and he is a Man Creek/ Almirante .... 

best of luck 
Damian


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

AlexD said:


> I personally don't think any tank can be too big for a frog to find food. Think about in nature, were there are hundreds of acres in which they can wander.
> 
> That being said, a temporary enclosure is what he needs right now. Take a Tupperware box, line it with moist paper towel and put some cork pieces and vine cuttings in there for him to hide under. That way, you can better monitor his food intake, he can find it easily, and fecal collection will be a snap. Just be sure to change the towel every few days. There is hope of his recovery.


Alex if there is not apropiate food for the frog, specially a small juvinile the tank might be a bit too large as they are not the best hunters.. this is why springtails are essential in the tank ... 

Damian


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## Jennifer (Dec 1, 2008)

Okay, thanks guys....where do I get springtails and what are they even?


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

Yeah, I see what you mean. Those baby pums are tiny and ff's are just too big for some of them at first.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Jennifer how old is your pumilio ? Where are you located ?


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## Jennifer (Dec 1, 2008)

He's only about four months old...and I'm in Minnesota


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

That is still fairly young so he might prefer springs, even though he can eat fruit flies .... 

U should post wanted springtails on wanted section or check all the sponsors , many of them have them and can show you how to breed them etc .. 

Damian .


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## Kevin1234 (Oct 12, 2008)

I would also put a water bottle cap with a piece of banana in it. The flies will lay eggs and it will get covered in maggots.... Most frogs will go for them. They will be smaller than the flies and good for putting weight on. I am having the same exact problem with a man creek pumilio and had the fecal done and it was bacterial. Main thing I noticed though is that it prefers other food over flies. If you have access to termites in the forest you may want to try them ...Talk to Dr. Frye though he will most likely have you put him on Metranidizole which is for bacteria and also acts as an appetite stimulant. 


Kevin


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## Jennifer (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks for the thoughts Kevin. I will do the banana thing. I don't have access to termites...everything outside is covered in snow here!


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## Kevin1234 (Oct 12, 2008)

no problem good luck with him! I know how frustrating it is.....Mine has slowly been gaining weight over a few weeks but he was so skinny that I think it might take lots of time to get normal.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Kevin 

The banana thing is ofcourse a good idea but for future and as of termites .. no no no lol .... Alot of adults cant even take termites as some of them do bite, what makes you think a 4 month old pumilio will ?


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## Kevin1234 (Oct 12, 2008)

I didn't notice it was about a 4 month old one. I also don't feed the soldiers only workers.... the soldiers are the ones that bite I believe, the ones with large mandibles for defending the colony.....

I have never had a 4 month old pumilio as well so I don't know exactly if it could take a termite....but they are high in fat and that is what is needed... but what I do know is that my skinny pumilio has trouble eating the melanogaster flies and spits some of them out....but it will eat the termites that are slightly bigger than the flies and has never spat one out.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I also feed termites to alot of my frogs, and ofcourse not the soldiers .. the ones that do take them devour them like they havent eaten in months but for a 4 month old pumilio that will not work ....


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

I will send you a PM, but get a hold of me. I also live in Minnesota and can help your with springtails ASAP. Not sure what size fruit flies you have but I have some melos that are peaty small. I also have some magnolia leaves for cover/surface area for springtails, if you need those as well.

Either way, get a hold of me and I will help in anyway. Check PM's for phone number. There are not a lot of us here in Minnesota, so we have to stick together and help each other out.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ask Dr. Frye if metronidazole would work since the frog refuses to eat.

Do NOT OVERFEED if the frog is emaciated. If you do, they'll experience refeeding syndrome and die.

Try giving the frog some UVB with a good reptile light. Brent Brock reports that UVB is very helpful for pumilio, and even prevented one of his frogs from dying.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Rain_Frog said:


> Do NOT OVERFEED if the frog is emaciated. If you do, they'll experience refeeding syndrome and die.


Good remark @ refeeding syndrome. I have always been interested in it, but only have knowledge as to humans i.e WWII POW's ect. I think the danger is large amounts of protein, so I'm not sure if FF would have the same effect.

I don't doubt it can possibly occur in Amphibians under some conditons. Does anyone have any casework or medical cites for it?

ED?


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Jennifer, did you ever find any food for your frog? How is he doing?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Good remark @ refeeding syndrome. I have always been interested in it, but only have knowledge as to humans i.e WWII POW's ect. I think the danger is large amounts of protein, so I'm not sure if FF would have the same effect.
> 
> I don't doubt it can possibly occur in Amphibians under some conditons. Does anyone have any casework or medical cites for it?
> 
> ED?


It can occur in amphibians. See Reptile Medicine and Surgery second edition. If you are concerned about this then only feed the frog about 50% of what it may metabolically require (there is a thread that discusses that where I did some basic calculations) on a daily basis for at least two weeks and then gradually increase the amount fed until it reaches the appropriate proportions. 

Ed


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## Jennifer (Dec 1, 2008)

He's EATING! And he's become much more active too. He is still very skinny, but at least I'm seeing him eat and hopping around. I did put a banana slice in there and the ffs all went to it...that's where he's been eating. I also put in an under tank heat pad to raise the temp a couple degrees. Perhaps this is all he needed...I am also planning on getting a springtail kit from Ed's meat. Thanks for help and suggestions all, I hope he makes it!


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Jennifer said:


> He's EATING! And he's become much more active too. He is still very skinny, but at least I'm seeing him eat and hopping around. I did put a banana slice in there and the ffs all went to it...that's where he's been eating. I also put in an under tank heat pad to raise the temp a couple degrees. Perhaps this is all he needed...I am also planning on getting a springtail kit from Ed's meat. Thanks for help and suggestions all, I hope he makes it!


Great! Feel free to contact me if you should ever need anything locally.


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