# Help my frogs are dieing



## Dire (Dec 12, 2013)

I started out this summr with 10 frogs two Azures, two cobalts, two bumblebees, two green and black, and two blue and black poison dart frogs split between two terrariums. The green and black and blue and black frogs were in their own terrarum and with the other three types together. During the summer they were fat and happy with an exception to that the G/B and B/B staying extremly shy. Then when it turned winter we put a heating pad on the bottom of the tank. Recenly though we noticed one of the G/B frogs was getting skinny so we attempted to increase how much food we put in the tank for them, flightless fruit flys, but it did not work shortly after it died. A week or so later the other green and black died of the same issue. My dad believed that it was the reduced heat causing them not to eat and we worried but not all that much. So we ended up moving the bumblebees into the B/B tank. This month though the one of the bumblebees showed the same thing; getting extremly skinny and then dieing, but we were there before they died and I noticed shortly before dieing they race around the terrarium almost blindly then jump flip over and die. Our fourth frog has died because of this yesterday, one of our B/B darts, but unlike the he was not very skinny. I am very worried and would like to figure out what the problem is, and stop it because I do not wish to loose more frogs.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear you are having problems. Hopefully we'll be able to help you sort this out.

I have a few questions for you:

How old were the frogs when you first got them?

What are the terrariums like? How big are they, how were they constructed (pics help), what are the temps/humidity, etc

What are you supplementing your feeders with? Are the frogs getting their necessary vitamins?

Also, have you done any reading about mixing different morphs/species of dart frogs? There is a LOT of information here on this board and I can tell you right now that it is generally viewed as a very bad idea since these frogs can cause a lot of problems for each other in such small places. I suggest doing a little searching on the board to get a better understanding of some of the issues. A good place to start is the with the stickies here: Beginner Discussion - Dendroboard


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Where did you get your frogs? Did they not tell you not to put them all together like that?


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## Amphibian addict (May 15, 2012)

Sounds a bit like parasites, I could be wrong, but you should see if you can get fecals checked.


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

Please do not use head pads under vivs-best to keep the room temp at 72 degrees during day,68 degrees at night.These temps along with your lighting should keep frogs happy.Never move a frog to a viv that housed a sick frog without breaking it down and sterilizing w/bleach first-rinse out very,very ,well!!! Like Tom mentioned,you should keep one species per viv,or it can/probably will,cause issues.Also adding more fruitflies to frogs that are not eating well just stresses them out more.What supplements are you using to dust ff's with,and how long have you had the supplements?


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## Urban Jungle (Oct 10, 2013)

You also might want to double check that all the glues, paints, plants and other items used inside the tank are frog safe.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

The Members are all Giving you the great advice one reply at a time... But just to reiterate. You mentioned they were fine in the summer, does this mean you had them successfully many months & then when the temperature in your room dropped for winter, has it dropped into unsafe lows? exact temps would help us help you...
1) *Temps*Get you a temp gun or hygrometer or thermostat at least something to measure room & tank temps accurately. Temps in the mid to high 70s during day and 68 to 72 at night is fine also. A heat pad is not a good idea with frogs as another member stated, controlling the room temp is much more ideal for them. 
2) *Moisture *Whats the humidity in your Vivarium? dehydration will cause thin frogs, also they dont eat a much when theyre not healthy & dehydrated so it would expedite weight loss & is probably the biggest form of mal nourishment. has your humidity level decreased for whatever reason? Do you cover most of the tank typically? 
3)*Feeding* Are you using repashy Cal plus & dusting with every meal? Its the best choice for an All in 1 supplement & should be used with each feeding in my opinion. How often do you feed? Are there always flies walking around the tank or are they gone about an hour after you feed? Im only trying to acertain if you are feeding enough fo rthe tank having so many frogs...Also as someone else stated it is more complicated to keep larger numbers of frogs in tanks & if you dont recognize the problems quickly many issues can arise even in froglets. Some will always eat more & you have to pull the weaker ones before its too late most times..
4)*Parisites* If you are doing everything right there is a chance this could be a parasite & if you cant find a way to correct any part of your husbandry to resolve the issue dfinitely take the animals for testing to a vet.. Its not so involved & you can take the fecals without the animals if you separate them & isolate fecals from each. This would be easier if I could speak to you directly so I could ask questions & get to the bottom of it faster for you? Email me here [email protected] & if you dont mind you can call me & I will try my best to tell you everything I do & see if theres something you may be doing wrong. Good luck man


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

Also most inter species/keeping of multiple species within the same enclosure is either not a good idea or best left to advanced hobbyist. the Cobalts & Azureus together is a big No No with them being Tincs & potentially cross breeding..


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I`m really not trying to be a smart ass here, but how could you have that many frogs and clearly not know how to take care of them?
Your frogs are dying because of stress, bullying, mixing, too much/not enough food, too hot/cold, too moist/dry, probably no hiding spots and I`m afraid to ask what size your tanks are.
I read and researched anything I could get my hands on for MONTHS before I got my frogs and I still don`t know what the hell I`m doing half the time.
Take the advise given in these responses and start over slowly, and I hope the rest of your frogs go quickly and not suffer any longer.
Sorry.

John


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Poor animals. Please do proper research on how to care for these animals or any animal that you take responsibility for. I know I'm supposed to be supportive but you had two frogs die and you said you weren't all that worried? Are they disposable? Are they living creatures or just decorations? Don't get me wrong frogs die sometimes but your post is upsetting. Why would you move healthy frogs into the same conditions where other frogs had just died?

I would suggest that you contact someone from this message board who lives in your area and ask if they'll help you immediately. If forty percent of your frogs have died recently you have every right to expect the rest to die unless you have someone help you. It has already been 12 hours and you haven't responded.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think finding someone local to you is an excellent idea. Maybe we can help you with that. Where are you located?

Also, can you post some pics of their set-ups? We might be able to give you better advice, in the meantime, if we can see them and their tanks.


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## BUZZ1 (May 24, 2007)

Have you been dusting their flies with vitamin/ca supplement?

If not, this could be a cause.


Like captainron said, I'd take the heating pad away.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Alright everyone, let's wait and give the OP a chance to respond and answer some more questions before we start jumping to conclusions and making accusations.

Remember, we're here to *help*.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

carola1155 said:


> Alright everyone, let's wait and give the OP a chance to respond and answer some more questions before we start jumping to conclusions and making accusations.
> 
> Remember, we're here to *help*.


Agreed, based on some recent responses, I wouldn't blame him for never posting again.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I`m really not trying to be a smart ass here, but how could you have that many frogs and clearly not know how to take care of them?
> Your frogs are dying because of stress, bullying, mixing, too much/not enough food, too hot/cold, too moist/dry, probably no hiding spots and I`m afraid to ask what size your tanks are.
> I read and researched anything I could get my hands on for MONTHS before I got my frogs and I still don`t know what the hell I`m doing half the time.
> Take the advise given in these responses and start over slowly, and I hope the rest of your frogs go quickly and not suffer any longer.
> ...



Hello, 

First thing first, John is right in all he said, even if it was blunt. The key to success is RESEARCH! John said that he researches for months before makeing a purchase, I consider this a minumum. Before I got my first thumbnail, I researched them for over a year and thats after owning tincs for a year.

I am always afraid of failure when animals are involved, sooooo I do everything in my power to eliminate stress and the possibility of disease. 

I quarintine every animal to enter my home, dart frog or dog, it does not matter. Quarantine keeps disease from affecting more than isolated individuals and make the diagnosis and treatment process much more effective. 

I avoid crowded conditions at all costs. Crowding causes stress as the frogs cannot escape each others sight and the frog's territory is under constant attack. 

I avoid mixing species/morphs for many reasons. Mixing should not be attempted by anyone exept for the most elite of experts IMO.

I keep a constant watch on the animal's food supply and eating habits. Lack of a food source will obviously result in weight loss, but over feeding can also stress and frog -- sometimes to death. The frog's eating habits also give you a glimpse of the animal's condition. Is the frog eating? Is the frog eating but losing weight? These are questions you always should know the answer to.

I do routine fecal exams for the presence of parasites every two months. Frogs in quarantine get checks weekly. Often times, people choose to test less frequently, but I have constant access to a microscope and lab supplies so this is a easy and effective course of action for me. Remember, a negitive fecal does not necessarily mean negative for parasites. 

All of the precautions I listed above help me keep the healthiest animals possible. I advise you to take to as many of the them as possible. Also, the best way to ensure the safety of your frogs, I believe, would be to receive help from a local frogger and have him assist you in building adequate quarantine tanks for the frogs. This would definelty help with getting a accurate diagnosis. Oh, and FIND A VET! 

Good luck,
John


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Reminds me of that one blog of a boy having a tank with a single bromeliad and a water fountain in the middle of it.


he would happily post every 3-4 months all the new frogs he'd put into that thank since the former inhabitants wouldnt last longer than 3-4 months....


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Agreed, based on some recent responses, I wouldn't blame him for never posting again.


While all posts may be true, I agree with Scott and Doug that it doesn't help the problem. Scaring the OP off is a disservice to the remaining frogs. Our disservice. We're quick to blast the impulsive and un-informed, but who does that help? Sometimes being right isn't a important as allowing someone to be wrong, help them see that, and (hopefully) save some animals from further stress, possibly death.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I think every post was spot on and believe me I held back on mine. Maybe, just maybe the next person will read this thread and do a little research BEFORE he buy`s 10 frogs.

John


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I think every post was spot on and believe me I held back on mine. Maybe, just maybe the next person will read this thread and do a little research BEFORE he buy`s 10 frogs.
> 
> John


I agree, John. No one exaggerated, and yes, responses could have been way more critical. In which case, I still would not disagree with the facts presented. The problem is, and you may have noticed, the OP just joined this board. They came here for advise on sick frogs. It was already too late for them to see threads like this. This thread can not help the people who buy, both uninformed, and uneducated. They're uneducated because they don't come here in the first place. Because of this, the people you want to help (future uninformed froggers) will never get the advice you, I, and others offer. The only thing we can do is help the frogs. In this case, as well as others like it, we have failed. The frogs continue to suffer. An uninformed person remains just that, and we missed an opportunity to inject positive into this negative situation. I can't speak for anyone else, but this makes me sad. Sad because we merely confirmed the obvious.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I think every post was spot on and believe me I held back on mine. Maybe, just maybe the next person will read this thread and do a little research BEFORE he buy`s 10 frogs.
> 
> John


In one sense, I agree, on the other hand, we all make mistakes. This sounds like a case of just in fortunate ignorance. I hope we can do both, help the remaining frogs and this potential new hobbyist and caution newer people to these pitfalls.

I know I waded balls deep into the marine aquarium years ago and killed a shameful amount of fish back then. Of course back then, we had 2400baud modems, there were no reef forums to research, but my point is to be cautious how we respond so we don't potentially completely turn off new people.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Couldn't help but wonder during the deadzone period in the middle of the night whether the OP was just a "story." The OP has not returned to the board, and has not answered a PM I sent....maybe a disgruntled former member made it all up just to provoke....


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I have the same thought. Also with another disturbing thread.


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## yerbamate (Nov 3, 2013)

This guy's experience, though tragic, reassures me that the mix of apprehension and joy I feel about purchasing my first future pair of frogs is legitimate and smart. Our 75 gal bowed tank is beautifully designed, the ff and springtail cultures are coming along, but everyday and night I'm scouring DB for every piece of info possible that might prevent such a nightmare scenario after 1st acquisition of frogs (no rush!). Some people learn by "doing" first and then thinking, others by thinking first and then "doing". 




Enlightened Rogue said:


> I think every post was spot on and believe me I held back on mine. Maybe, just maybe the next person will read this thread and do a little research BEFORE he buy`s 10 frogs.
> 
> John


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

So it`s been 3 days and no response. If it was BS and someone was trying to get us a rise out of us it didn`t work a-hole.
IF there is a mr/ms dire and you found our responses to be somewhat rough it`s only because we care about the frogs period. Trust me, I lost plenty of frogs and got beat up years ago when I first joined. There`s people who have been doing this for 20 years and lose frogs.
Just get back to us and we`ll help, promise.

John


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Well now, maybe he's in one of these areas that's been hit with bad weather. Maybe he's a kid and doesn't get to use the Internet whenever he wants. He did say something about his Dad and a heat pad. Maybe he's not Internet savvy and can't find his way back here. 

Dire, if you make it this far through the thread, I'm willing to help you out with your frogs.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Kris, we got 6 inches of snow here yesterday with an inch of solid ice on top of it. My area for the most part is shut down for the day, and I`m on my computer. They`re were many very positive and helpful posts we provided. If this person is real or not, who knows, but the ball is in his hands now.

John


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Maybe the frogs are all dead already and he moved on to other funky animals...


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## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

I wish there was an easier way to tell the difference between someone who's actually new, and someone who's trolling just for fun. My guess right now is 75% chance troll, 25% chance kid. 

Dire, if you're being serious, contact a vet in your area and ask them how familiar they are with amphibians and how much help they could be to you. If they can help you, move your frogs into a plastic sweater box or something similar and simple with some damp paper towels laid out on the bottom. Then collect fresh fecal samples from them (the fresher the better) and wrap them up in a damp paper towel and store that in a ziplock bag in your refrigerator until you can bring it to the vet for analysis. If you have enough extra money, and any more of your frogs die, you could bring the corpse in for a necropsy but that won't do you much good if your frog has been dead for a couple of days. If your vet determines that your frogs need some kind of treatment, that would be a perfect time for you to do some more research on sanitation, cross contamination, mixing species, vivarium construction, etc. while they are are going through a quarantine cycle. That would provide you time to clean everything up and rebuild your tanks from scratch and eliminate any diseases or parasites that may still be around. All of those topics I listed are addressed in various areas on this board and will be able to help you out a lot. I think the most important thing for you to do now is to get them inspected and then while you are treating them, you will have plenty of time to do research on the husbandry concerns that are being expressed by other members to you. Good luck with your frogs, please keep us updated if you can.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Anyone else find it strange his screen name is "Dire"
I`m done here, on to the next.

John


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

i had had the same thought....


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