# Is it all right to place my frogs in their Viv?



## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I have had my juv. frogs (azeuras, leucs) for a few weeks now in rubbermaid containers. The all seem to be doing fine, eating and hopping about. Is it all right to go ahead and place them in their vivarium? I have read that it is recommended that to keep in the smaller containers for a month or two. I have a custom made vivarium that is approx 50gallons. Any suggestion or comments would be appreciated.THanks


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## Jencylivez (May 31, 2007)

Mixing different species of frogs is a big no-no, and while it can be done, it should be left to the experts and very large tanks. You should use the search function and look for threads that explain why mixing is not something we should do. Prepare for all the other users to say the same exact thing.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I have put frogglets directly in a previously set-up tank with no problems. One of the reasons people keep their frogs in smaller conatiners or temp tanks is to monitor them, make sure they are eating and healthy. So my only concern would be the difficulty of doing that in a 50 gallon tank. They are pretty small and you might have a hard time finding them. That being said, I don't know that it is a bad idea. *-edited to add-* The mixing topic is a different one all together, but I just wanted to comment on your specific question.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

The will be going in the same tank. I just wanted some answers concerning placing the young frogs in the tank. I think I will be be able to keep an eye on the better if they are in the viv, rather than the rubbermaid containers. Though I spent a lot of money getting this all together and don't want too many any risks.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Quarantining is a personal preference and while in many cases it should be done, it is not required. If you have no intention of having the frogs tested or any concerns about them eating or etc. then by all means put them in their new home.

With that said I would urge you to do some reading on mixing as it can be rather stressful to the animals, which can lead to deaths. Understand that many of these species are from different countries and would never be put in such a small space with their own species let alone another one.

You may want to take the time to read some of these threads:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16075

These specifically about mixing:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13169
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4532


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

For the present, I would suggest putting the leucs into your tank, then making the decision about what to do with the azureus later. How many of each do you have? This is actually an important consideration. The leucs will get along together no matter what their sexes are. They are relatively congenial frogs with rare territorial problems. The azureus, on the other hand, are very territorial frogs, especially the females. It's somewhat difficult to keep them happy except in mated pairs, or perhaps an extra male, in a lot of space. These are not two species I would ever consider mixing together, and I've kept both separately for many years. 

Oh my, I really hate the on-going mixing controversy.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I guess I should have asked, how do I tell when frogs are ready to be placed in the main tank? I don't plan any fecal tests. 
I don't plan to have my frogs produce or keep their offspring if such occurs. If I see problems among the frogs Ill take precautions but they all will be in the same tank.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I have a couple of each, I not sure how old they are though.


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## Obliv79 (Oct 31, 2007)

Well then if you are going to put the two species in the same tank don't cry to us about fatalities or problems concerning it. The reason everyone is telling you this is to keep the blood lines pure in each species another words if they mated you would have hybrids and its considered irresponsible in most pet hobbies. I suggest you read and read and read and did i mention read some more?


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Obliv79 said:


> Well then if you are going to put the two species in the same tank don't cry to us about fatalities or problems concerning it. The reason everyone is telling you this is to keep the blood lines pure in each species another words if they mated you would have hybrids and its considered irresponsible in most pet hobbies. I suggest you read and read and read and did i mention read some more?


I don't think that keeping the blood lines pure is an issue here at this time. One can always prevent that by pulling eggs, etc. It's more about how these particular frogs will get along together in the same tank, and if they will thrive in close company with each other. My educated guess from personal experience with both of these species kept separately, is that they probably won't make a happy group once they are beyond the juvenile stage. As for the original question about their age, they are ready to go into permanent tank, albeit possibly not all together in the same one. You could try it with the option of moving out one or the other species if any problems arise. But as a beginner with a first time experience, I wouldn't risk playing around with this and possibly losing some of them. Get some mileage on your odometer with each specie alone first. Have an alternative habitat available in case mixing doesn't work out and you need to separate them. There may be people on board who have actually mixed leucs and azureus with success. I have not tried it personally, and just from raising each separately, don't want to.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks Patty.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Obliv79 said:


> Well then if you are going to put the two species in the same tank don't cry to us about fatalities or problems concerning it. The reason everyone is telling you this is to keep the blood lines pure in each species another words if they mated you would have hybrids...


If you read the whole thread it is clear they do not want to breed them. I personal do not suggest mixing, but we shouldn't treat people like they are dumb if they choose differently. I was at a ZOO yesterday with a very large mixed tank. My suggestion is to listen to Patty. I think you could be heading for problems with a mixed tank, but it could work well. Just make sure you have the back up Patty suggested if you are set on doing this. But Obliv79 is right, if you do have problems in the future people may not be all that sympathetic, just so you are aware of that. Hope it works.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Read my explanation here on why Zoos do what they do:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14178


> *But I’ve seen mixed tanks at the zoo...*
> Yes many zoos and displays often have mixed tanks. In many cases, at least what I have seen, these are done with younger animals and larger enclosures. Younger animals tend to not be as aggressive as adults, and larger enclosures offer a place for a stressed frog to hide and get away from another frog. A number of people have had success with mixing a arboreal species with a more ground dwelling species, but there have also been a number of cases where it has been suspected that the larger ground species frog has possibly ate the smaller arboreal species.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

kyle1745 said:


> Read my explanation here on why Zoos do what they do:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14178


And you are right Kyle, the tank I saw had many young frogs and a few adult ones. I would state again that I do not endorse it, but simply that it has been done.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Personal attacks are a violation of the rules and have been removed from this thread.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Well my frogs are doing great. I expect that if i start having problems that they will occur once the frogs mature. Can I assume that if they are raised together as juvs that they will 'adapt' to live together?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Well my frogs are doing great. I expect that if i start having problems that they will occur once the frogs mature. Can I assume that if they are raised together as juvs that they will 'adapt' to live together?


With no fecals run there is no real way of telling what may happen when. Many times a group of 'X' frogs will have parasites while 'Y' frogs from the same breeder may be clean. Or , 'X' may have parasites 'x' and 'Y' have 'y'. By mixing 'X and Y' and not doing any fecals, any nasties carried by one species is now carried by both. Bullying can occur well before maturity and is a stressor which can multiply the 'usual' effects of parasites. Feeding will most likely also become an issue as the frog grow and the 20 gal tank is the bare minimum size 'required' for four frogs of the same species. I would not assume that even two of the same species will 'adapt' as I have seen two female leucs fight like they were going to kill each other if I did not separate them. Throw a whole different morph into the mix and I can't imagine what pandemonium would have occurred.

Rich


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I guess I'm in for a wild ride then. I will keep posting on my progress.

My frogs were purchased from a reputable breeder and I have no concerns about fecals. I think the whole fecal thing is really unnecessary. Unless my frogs show signs of illness I won't worry about fecals. My tank is 50gal(custom made frog tank)so they have plenty of room and hiding spots.
I guess Rich you can look at this an experiment(of pandemonium). If it works may be I can encourage more people to mix.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> I guess I'm in for a wild ride then. I will keep posting on my progress.
> 
> My frogs were purchased from a reputable breeder and I have no concerns about fecals. I think the whole fecal thing is really unnecessary. Unless my frogs show signs of illness I won't worry about fecals. My tank is 50gal(custom made frog tank)so they have plenty of room and hiding spots.
> I guess Rich you can look at this an experiment(of pandemonium). If it works may be I can encourage more people to mix.


Sorry about the 20gal-50gal mix up.
By 'works' I guess you mean survive?

Rich


Rich


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Right, I mean survive. Just like when I take them(the frogs) out of tank for my dog to chases around and they survive. Or when I'm stuck on an island and I must survive to make it off. Or my grandma did not survive her heart attack. Survive.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Right, I mean survive. Just like when I take them(the frogs) out of tank for my dog to chases around and they survive. Or when I'm stuck on an island and I must survive to make it off. Or my grandma did not survive her heart attack. Survive.


I see.
The reason I ask is that many of us in the hobby want for our frogs to do more than just survive.
Sorry to hear about your grandma.

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> I guess Rich you can look at this an experiment(of pandemonium). If it works may be I can encourage more people to mix.


I just worry about the "encourage more people to mix part". That implies that there would be a benefit to mixing, which there is not, as Rich nicely states in his signature (I like that Rich). Can it work in that the frogs all survive together? Yes. But I don't think it can be seen as more preferable. It simply is not more preferable to the frogs, just the keeper. But then again, we are keeping frogs in glass tanks, which is not preferable to the frog, just the keeper.

Bocomo, I hope you don't think people are just being close minded on the mixing issue. I think a lot of people just look at it this way; "This often works, and the other often doesn't, so I will stay with the more common way". So while I do not think that we should state that mixed tanks do not work, I think we have a responsibility to let people know the risks. If your tank works just keep that in mind. You understand the risks and are going to proceed with extra caution and attention I'm sure. It will give you a perspective that others don't have, but try to give fair advice if it comes up later, give people both sides to the issue, "this worked for me, but I did this, this, and this", or "this didn’t work for me and I think this is why". It could work for you, but that doesn't mean it will work for the next guy, and that needs to be acknowledged.

Let us know how it progresses over the coming months.


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## Android1313 (Dec 15, 2006)

> Just like when I take them(the frogs) out of tank for my dog to chases around and they survive.


I just hope you realize that not a lot of people here will have any sympathy for you when your frogs end up dead from the stress that you have caused them, whether they live thru it or not.
And just because they "survive" doesnt necessarily mean they havent been harmed.


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## neudl (Oct 18, 2007)

I get the impression that we’re being baited, in that the issues raised in this thread tent to be “hot button” issues for folks – mixing of species, whether or not to get fecals done. Just my two cents.


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

> when your frogs end up dead from the stress that you have caused them, whether they live thru it or not.


Hmmm... how do you live through dead?

*And Android 1313 doesnt know when they do survive, if they're happy either.*
So good for you bocomo, We are not where we are today in this hobbie because people didnt try, everybody has different experiences with their frogs, some things work for some people and some things dont for others
Watch closely and keep us updated w/ your progress.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Before we say 'good for you' is there any know benefit to the frogs in mixing? 

Is there a feeling out there that very experienced froggers have not already tried mixing and found it to be agianst the frogs' best interests?

Should it not be our goal to make environments as healthy as possible for our frogs?

Is possibly cross-comtaminating species a productive thing?

Is quarantine/testing a bad thing?

There are reasons that 99% of the non-newbies will post against mixing. I have yet to hear of one benfit to the frogs and hate to see them put in danger because someone wanted a fish tank.


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## Dartluv (Dec 27, 2006)

ok im taking this as also a bait and swith thing... i posted before but it was removed in the whole "personal attack" issue, but anyway i dont think that you are seriously doing this... "when i take my frogs out for the dog to chase them"... there are tons of things that would have went wrong and the frogs would be dead already. If by some chance they they
are still living then i must assume somethings up.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Dartluv said:


> ok im taking this as also a bait and swith thing... i posted before but it was removed in the whole "personal attack" issue, but anyway i dont think that you are seriously doing this... "when i take my frogs out for the dog to chase them"... there are tons of things that would have went wrong and the frogs would be dead already. If by some chance they they
> are still living then i must assume somethings up.


Troll or not there are in fact still newbies out there intent on mixing. That is fact. 
Nothing wrong with experimentation. But it should not be done by newbies who have yet to understand the bottom basics of the hobby. And it should not be encouraged until someone can come up with a benefit to the frogs.

Rich


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

My biggest question that has not been asked (unless it was removed) is why do you want to have a mixed species tank? For your own viewing pleasure to see two different colors in the same tank, or are you trying to prove something? What is your goal in the hobby... to have what you want no matter what the consequences are to the frogs or to keep the animals in the best possible conditions and keep them happy and healthy? Just why are you so insistent in having a mixed tank with all the evidence to the contrary presented????


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

the benefit to the frogs would have been to leave em in the wild...
this whole hobbie is not about what is best for the frogs, this is a selfish hobbie to collect them for our own satisfaction. If there is a project in returning them to the wild after captive breeding them back to a substantial number for survival, then i appologize for the previous statement, but until then, lets be real. Many people have tried things in this hobbie to be where we are, some successful and some not, some works for some and not for others. Not every one is so serious about the exact detail on how others have done, but what enjoyment they get from the hobbie and how they do it. So let people enjoy the hobbie responsibly as they choose.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

porkchop said:


> So let people enjoy the hobbie *responsibly* as they choose.


I think that is the point Rich and the others are trying to make... there is nothing responsible about arguing for this and there is nothing "responsible" about mixing species, and no "responsbile" hobbiest thinks it's in the best interest of the frogs. There is no proven benefit and your playing devils advocate just stirs the pot. Either you think that mixed tank situations are OK or you don't, but if you are just playing devils advocate that is no help at all. If you positive experiences with or have good reasons to mix then lets hear it, otherwise your whole arguement has flaws as animals have been kept in captivity for ages. I think most agree that being in captivity is not the best thing for the animals, but making the best of the situation they are in is. BTW, there are efforts to reintroduce captive bred populations back into the wild (AmphibianARC for one)...


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

porkchop said:


> the benefit to the frogs would have been to leave em in the wild...
> this whole hobbie is not about what is best for the frogs, this is a selfish hobbie to collect them for our own satisfaction. If there is a project in returning them to the wild after captive breeding them back to a substantial number for survival, then i appologize for the previous statement, but until then, lets be real. Many people have tried things in this hobbie to be where we are, some successful and some not, some works for some and not for others. Not every one is so serious about the exact detail on how others have done, but what enjoyment they get from the hobbie and how they do it. So let people enjoy the hobbie responsibly as they choose.


Leave 'em in the wild huh?
Really, will my frogs be consumed by another animal for food? Will my frogs die of Chytrid? Will they be displaced by new cow pastures? Will they freeze or roast due to weird weather fronts? Will they be decimated by smugglers? These are all possible in the wild. Not in my vivs. Some are selfish , I agree.
Let's be real. I was unaware that Darts were indigenous to Hawaii.......impossible to reintroduce I tell ya.......
Benefits (only a few) to the frogs being kept as opposed to in the wild , posted. 
Benefits to mixing , not posted.

Rich


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## Android1313 (Dec 15, 2006)

> Hmmm... how do you live through dead?


I meant if they lived thru the stress!


> And Android 1313 doesnt know when they do survive, if they're happy either


I never said anything about them being happy! I would venture a guess that they are not. But thats *MY* opinion. Like it or not. :roll:


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Just why are you so insistent in having a mixed tank with all the evidence to the contrary presented????


Well said, sbreland. I am, by all admission, a novice to the hobby but I have researched extensively before getting my feet wet, and spent some time thinking about what it was that attracted me to the hobby in the first place. There was a time when I envisioned a mixed species tank as a centerpiece in my home- with lots of contrasting colors, etc. What ultimately changed my direction was understanding (a) the extreme territorialism of many species and (b) the underlying 'mission' of the hobby in creating healthy CB populations. There is certainly a side of the hobby that is a bit selfish and self-serving in accumulating rare species, having something beautiful to look at, etc- and I certainly don't want to succumb to those temptations outside of my expertise. Causing undue stress on frogs by mixing species in a single enclosure does nothing to ensure healthy collections or display animals- and there's certainly no reason to advocate mixing, because it's been proven that it simply doesn't work and while the animals may 'survive', they'll hardly 'thrive'. 

Bocomo, ultimately this is a decision that you make on your own, as you clearly have. It won't be celebrated by most, because quite frankly, 'the proof is in the pudding' through the hard work of hobbyists that preceded us that has demonstrated that mixed species tanks don't do well in most circumstances and 'healthy' dynamic behavior like reproduction and courtship behaviors may never happen because of the stressful conditions. 
If the evidence (past and present) available clearly shows that mixing species doesn't work well, why plow forward intent on doing what may well kill your frogs?

Just my observations and opinions, of course, take it or leave it.

Jason


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

I smell troll...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

littlefrog said:


> I smell troll...


Perhaps, but if so I have never understood the enjoyment that people get out of this kind of thing...


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I don't care what anyone has to say about mixing. Unless you want to offer guidance I suggest you all don't waste your time posting about mixing.

Come on people the dog chasing the frogs was a joke. My dog would eat them in a second and I don't handle the frogs.

I came here seeking some advice on when to place my frogs in the tank. I understand some of you are bothered by it. My whole intent was to place a couple of different color of frogs in a tank to look 'pretty'. If this bothers you deal with it, cuz I don't care and I don't want to hear about it. 

Any supportive advice would be appreciated.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> If this bothers you deal with it, cuz I don't care and I don't want to hear about it.


If you don't want to listen, then don't ask. Do what you want with your frogs and understand that you will likely not get much, if any, help if something goes awry because you decided to ignore what others had to say, and mix anyway.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

This hobby is about 10% what you know, and 90% experimentation


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> This hobby is about 10% what you know, and 90% experimentation


Take a guess at what 10% IS known...............


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

so when you say you post here to get advice, you mean the advice that agrees with you. you just don't want to hear that you cant do something, which is normally fine if it just involves you, but there are other living things involved and i'm guessing you aren't thinking about them. actually i know that, becuase you arn't listening to anybody. even though they obviously have much more experience than you, but i guess that doesn't mean anything to you?


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Sorry, but, why risk it? Especially about something that has before been proven to be a bad idea...?

Good luck with your frogs though,


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Another problem you are going to face is that if reputable breeders see this thread and see your defiant attitude and your unwillingness to put the animals health above your desire to see a "pretty" tank, you will likely not get them to sell you any more frogs. That may not concern you now, but when you burn bridges it can come back to haunt you...

You are right about 1 thing... this hobby is 10% what you know and 90% what you try... only problem is that the mixing thing has been tried over and over with poor results. Let me make one thing straight to you that I think you might be missing... you are not a pioneer. You aren't doing something that nobody has done before and you aren't the first to actually try it instead of listening to the advice. The advice is given by those that have either doen it themselves and failed or those that have seen it done and it failed. Not trying to degrade you, but as a beginner, what make you think that you are goign to fare any different? Honestly if you don't place the wellbeing of your animals above your own desires to have a pretty tank I can say that the respect you will earn even if you keep them alove for awhile will be minimal. Most, if not all of the people here love the colors and want a pretty setup, but we put the wellbeing of our frogs first. I can't say anymore than that and you'll do what you want to... it just makes me sad for the frogs when someone can't listen...


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Why don't you all stop?

I asked a question, I got my answer. I don't need another post about how bad mixing is.


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

I agree with most of these experienced opinions, and respect them, the reason i played Devils advocate (as it was put) was because of some of the tactless responses put forth attacking people. I have other personal reasons after a long deliberation before i responded to this post, but damned if i will feed the wolves by voicing them. I know of a handful of great breeders and importers here in the NW that will not touch this site for this very reason.
Some replies were very tactful, some were not. It becomes difficult to discuss things here sometimes because of the fear.
If the assumption of this being the troll was true, then you should not feed his need, reply tactfully with an opinion and bow out.
This would be a better place then.
I meant not to offend anyone (rich), and i dont care to be blacklisted on this site, which very well could happen.
Thanks for the interesting conversation, i will be much more selective where i put my thoughts on this board.
Have a great day.


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## Chano (Oct 29, 2007)

I find it hard to imagine that people are going to line up to offer you guidance when they are trying to and you reply with basically "im goint to do what i want deal with it" Putting spiecies together which may very well lead to one or more deaths so you have a tank that "looks pretty" is just sad. I doubt anyone is really going to want to help you with that as from what it seems like to me everyone here really loves their frogs and the hobby in general.

I have a pittbull and i love my dog like one of my kids and if you asked me questions about taking care of pitts so you can fight them im going to get pretty offended pretty fast(and deffinately not help you in anyway shape or form). this is exactly what you are doing here IMO.


Sorry mods I tried to keep my opinion to myself but i just couldnt take it anymore I said my piece and am now out of this convo again.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Why don't you all stop?
> 
> I asked a question, I got my answer. I don't need another post about how bad mixing is.


I have a few final comments on this issue then shall retire from it. Bocomo brings up a really good point here, he asked a question to get an answer. I have followed this thread from the beginning and feel that Bocomo has never stated he wish his frogs harm (yes there were some sarcastic comments made, but aside from that). He has stated that he is planning on watching for problems and then acting accordingly. I do not think he is planning this so his frogs wopuld die or be harmed, I am sure he would not want that. I will not restate my opinions on the mixing issue as I have already done it in this thread. This thread speaks to a problem that pops-up on the board more often than it should. When someone posts a comment that is not in harmony with the Board as a whole, many seem to go on attack mode. I think the Moderators are great examples when these issues come-up, they offer to the point advice, the back-up to support it, what they think would be beneficial and then get out. They let the reader make of it what they will. Can you imagine Kyle calling someone a know nothing "newbie" (I hate that word by the way)? Sorry to use you Kyle, but ultimately he has to sort these arguments out and it can be burdensome I am sure.



> I agree with most of these experienced opinions, and respect them, the reason i played Devils advocate (as it was put) was because of some of the tactless responses put forth attacking people....I know of a handful of great breeders and importers here in the NW that will not touch this site for this very reason.
> Some replies were very tactful, some were not. It becomes difficult to discuss things here sometimes because of the fear.


Porckchop is right. When we respond in rash ways it only drives people away. There were some great posts in this thread to start with, they offered solid opinions and then left it at that. Should we stick-up for what we think is in the best interests of the frogs? Yes, of course. But should we take that to the point of where others are afraid to post on here because they might be attacked too? No. 

Again, I am not in support the issues raised above, and would stand next to the vast majority on the hot button husbandry issues. I just think well tempered insightful comments go a lot farther in swaying people than heated remarks. Insightful comments have changed my opinions in many cases, including mixing. Sorry to rant on this, but I think it is important to the health of the board that we try not to get sucked into these things. Offer advice as you see it, and if someone doesn't respect that, move on. Don't let yourself be baited, don't try to bait the others. People will either take them serious on here or not. I apologize if any of my comments in this thread were taken in a bad way, and this particular post is not directed at in one in particular.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I think some of you all have taken this post way to far for me. I never tried to 'bait' anyone, if it seemed that way I was just reacting to comments posted. I would have never thought the post went this far because I 'mixed' my frogs. Hopefully if I post another question I won't be shunned because my frogs are mixed. Some you of take this hobby very seriously, but since I just got started I may not.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I guess I look at it a bit differently. Do we all think that absolutely everyone that has any interest in the pretty Darts should have them in their care? Is it really our goal as a hobby to have quantity rather than quality. It is the opinion of most of us in the hobby that we should , as stewards, give our frogs every advantage as possible and try to maintain as healthy a collection as possible. When anybody, be they newish or not, posts intentions that are KNOWN to be against the frog's best interests it is going to rub a lot of froggers the wrong way. I know I get frustrated when I point out a few facts I have found to be true, pertinent husbandry issues to not only be ignored but to read statements like "I don't care what anybody has to say about mixing...don't waste your time posting...." 
I think as stewards we have a bit more of an obligation to the hobby and frogs than to say 'they are ultimately your frogs. Do as you wish. Good luck.....' As sad or even possibly un-pc as it may sound, not EVERYONE belongs in this hobby. Look at the high 'turnover' rate we already experience . I wonder what happened to all those frogs........


One last thing. I fail to read anything I would consider a personal attack in this whole thread.

Rich


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## Abbathx (Aug 15, 2007)

it's nice to have advice but to have someone tell you how to have your frogs.
l hate that ... like telling you how to raise your kids it's annoying and dramatic and gets old people will do what they want to do but nice helpful advice is great.


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## Dartluv (Dec 27, 2006)

We were only doing what we thought best Abbathx. If new parents had just had children and had no idea how to raise them i would probably offer advice (if i had any) and yes though it may suck, to own an animal most people think it best that you find out alot about that animal BEFORE. And the purpose of this board is to provide new members with something tangable and useful that they can, in turn, give to the other members. Yes its true, beginners dont use all the information. Eventually we get into our own groove of what we think best. I dont think any of the things posted here are attacks more of some people wishing that Bocomo would reconsider for the sake of the animals. Its sound advice tried and true that darts dont mix. And Bocomo, if you do decide to post again on the board some will remember that you dont take advice to well.
~S


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## Abbathx (Aug 15, 2007)

thats why i said helpful advice~~ when people get into the mixing rant then the whole hybrid stories :? it goes nowhere... i kept 2azureus 2leucs 2retf in 29gal for 2 1/2 yrs with total success so mixing isn't always bad and they were always happy but yes beg. always need to research thats how you succeed with your animals.

they were all same sex's no breeding or anything i would remove so i wouldnt get hybrids of course.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Abbathx said:


> thats why i said helpful advice~~ when people get into the mixing rant then the whole hybrid stories :? it goes nowhere... i kept 2azureus 2leucs 2retf in 29gal for 2 1/2 yrs with total success so mixing isn't always bad and they were always happy but yes beg. always need to research thats how you succeed with your animals.


Some people use a very different yardstick to judge 'success'. 
How many pure bred animals were produced by those six frogs in that enclosure ? Darts live for decades so a 2 1/2 year lockdown with a few species is way less than 10% of those frogs' potential lifespan. What ended up happening to those frogs? Alive and eating does not a healthy frog make.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Abbathx said:


> they were all same sex's no breeding or anything i would remove so i wouldnt get hybrids of course.


I didn't see this in your original post. And I don't understand the last part.
"I would remove so i wouldnt get hybrids of course". 
Does this mean there were always all one sex? Or if there were some breeding that you would remove hybrids?
Again, I am very interested to know about those frogs now.

Rich


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Rich,

Whats up with all the posts? If mixing is interesting to so many may be the mod or someone could set up forum that would be "Mixing Discussion'


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## Abbathx (Aug 15, 2007)

lol! all one sex meaning 2male azureus 2male leuc's 2 male retf's i meant all same sex cause they were thats why i left them together if i knew they were any other ratio it wouldn't have gone that far by all i meant all~ no hybrids! but i got rid of both tree frogs one azureus died from heat stress when i moved and all are seperated into their own tanks. but raising young frogs together for mixing isn't a bad idea just when they sexually mature they need to be seperated givin enough space.


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## Abbathx (Aug 15, 2007)

by that last part i meant i see nothing wrong with mixing young darts givin enough room but when they hit close to sexual maturity they should be seperated.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Bocomo said:


> If mixing is interesting to so many may be the mod or someone could set up forum that would be "Mixing Discussion'


The mixing dead horse has been repeatedly thrashed to an oily red stain on the ground. A quick search or perusal through some of forums will turn up several discussions on this matter.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Rich,
> 
> Whats up with all the posts? If mixing is interesting to so many may be the mod or someone could set up forum that would be "Mixing Discussion'


Bocomo,
I think we all pretty much posted our reasons and interest in this topic (not that we are all done yet). We all care for the frogs and it is known not to be a productive , healthy thing to mix. I'm sure we won't have to start a new discussion because as soon as this thread looses steam someone will no doubt start another one.....


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Abbathx said:


> lol! all one sex meaning 2male azureus 2male leuc's 2 male retf's i meant all same sex cause they were thats why i left them together if i knew they were any other ratio it wouldn't have gone that far by all i meant all~ no hybrids! but i got rid of both tree frogs one azureus died from heat stress when i moved and all are seperated into their own tanks. but raising young frogs together for mixing isn't a bad idea just when they sexually mature they need to be seperated givin enough space.


Well, I am not going to pick apart the reasoning too far but all of those frogs reach sexaul maturaty well before 2.5 years and can 'fight' for food well before that. When you mix three different species from three totally different parts of the world you run a chance of cross contaminating (more so than usual) each of them with any parasites or disease any of them have ( unless of course you knew for a fact that each and every one was absolutely 'clean' and that's not easy without extensive testing. Testing done?) . Now , if these frogs do have any parasites and they are living with 5 gallons of living space each and they are stressed (be it from heat or other) those parasites start becoming a factor and may cause deaths. So, 'raising young frogs together for mixing' IS a bad idea. Heck, being stressed with no known parasites could cause death. How was it decided that your azureus died frog heat stress and not something else? 

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Catfur said:


> Bocomo said:
> 
> 
> > If mixing is interesting to so many may be the mod or someone could set up forum that would be "Mixing Discussion'
> ...



Very, very true Clayton.
The reason this zombie horsecat of 900 lives never seems to die? Crazy to try to speculate because it is the ONLY topic I can think of that ALL of the experienced froggers either say 'no', or 'wouldn't if I were you' or at least something along those lines. And yet invariably some beginners do it anyway. Some actually proudly. 
I am sure much of it is lack of using the 'search' function and really doing good research . I really unfortunately do not see this practise ending any time soon. I don't see our wants for healthy frogs ending soon . So we should all be prepared for 'oily red stain' # 901 sometime in the next ten days to two weeks I am guessing. Sad actually.

Rich


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Rich,

I have strong opinions on mixing- frankly, I won't attempt it for all the reasons outlined- which make perfect sense to me. What are your thoughts on a mixed species tank that occupy very different 'slices' of the habitat in something sizeable like 75 gallons, say tinc group frogs with vents or imis? It would stand to reason that territorial disputes would be minimized given the differences in habitat, though stressors would still be present, I imagine. I'm sure this question has been raised many times before- but I'd like your thoughts on the matter.

Jason


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Rich Frye said:


> this zombie horsecat of 900 lives


I know I said I was done with this thread, but this is just a very interesting phrase. :lol:


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> Rich,
> What are your thoughts on a mixed species tank that occupy very different 'slices' of the habitat in something sizeable like 75 gallons, say tinc group frogs with vents or imis? It would stand to reason that territorial disputes would be minimized given the differences in habitat, though stressors would still be present, I imagine.


Jason, there are some good threads on this. Ed has had some interesting insights on the matter. We may not be offering as much different niches as we think though with a tank like this. While a tinc may stay MOSTLY on the floor, and some thumbs may stay MOSTLY higher up, there is still going to be interaction you would not find in the wild. I think an imi might have a difficult time compeating with a large dart like a tinc for food. Not saying it would not work, I have no experiance with the mater.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> Rich,
> 
> I have strong opinions on mixing- frankly, I won't attempt it for all the reasons outlined- which make perfect sense to me. What are your thoughts on a mixed species tank that occupy very different 'slices' of the habitat in something sizeable like 75 gallons, say tinc group frogs with vents or imis? It would stand to reason that territorial disputes would be minimized given the differences in habitat, though stressors would still be present, I imagine. I'm sure this question has been raised many times before- but I'd like your thoughts on the matter.
> 
> Jason


Jason,
First off , I really don't consider a 75 gal tank sizable at all. I keep some of my pums 1:1 in 90s with more gallons per frog than that at times.
Instead of adding to the points brought up I'll tell of my mixing experiences. It should be noted that all of the frogs that were mixed had gone through a very extensive quarantine period with multiple tests. These animals were as close to 'clean' as possible so passing parasites back and fourth was not a probable issue.
In a 90 long I have mixed orange terribilis and intermedius. The terribilis stayed on one side of the viv and the ints the other. Most ints were prone to stay up in the background. Neither species ever explored at all. Neither species EVER bred (at the time I think I had 2 species not breeding out of about 25 , besides these). And the orange terribilis that were in the mixed tank never grew like other orange terribilis I had of the same line and age. Deaths of those terribilis followed sooner and more frequently than my other terribils. But it should be noted that the terribilis deaths did not happen immediately or in a few months right after I decided that this mixed tank was not working. It took about 1.5 years for them to start prematurely dropping off. 
The other mixed tank yielded much the same results in somewhat smaller tank with much less inhabitants.
I can honestly say that to me both tanks were utter failures. Total. But I do not consider husbandry success as simply my frogs being breathing.

Rich


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Rich,

I don't understand why parasites are such an issue with dart frogs. I mean why bother with fecal test unless your frog is sick. If parasite a truly a problem why don't dart frogs owner just deworm them every month like you would a dog? For prevention purposes could you use some fenbendazole or ivermectin sprinkled on the fruit flies every month or two?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> flyangler18 said:
> 
> 
> > Rich,
> ...


This is a pic of some of the tank. There were tons of niches in this case.You can get perspective by looking at the terribilis in the lower right and knowing that this is not half of the tank's size pictured.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Rich,
> 
> I don't understand why parasites are such an issue with dart frogs. I mean why bother with fecal test unless your frog is sick. If parasite a truly a problem why don't dart frogs owner just deworm them every month like you would a dog? For prevention purposes could you use some fenbendazole or ivermectin sprinkled on the fruit flies every month or two?


'Quarantine' is a search you need to do. Would you like to get rid of nasties for good before you contaminate your viv or after? After means ripping down your viv totally. Treating while in quarantine or for the rest of the life of the frogs twice a month?

Rich


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> For prevention purposes could you use... ivermectin sprinkled on the fruit flies every month or two?


This is an insecticide- you'd have dead flies and frogs. 

Jason


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Rich Frye said:


> This is a pic of some of the tank. There were tons of niches in this case.You can get perspective by looking at the terribilis in the lower right and knowing that this is not half of the tanks size pictured.


What I mean is that we could say, I have a 75 gallon for 5 frogs. 2 are terrestrial, 3 are arboreal (sp?), so they will both have plenty of niches to fill. This assumes that the arboreal frogs won't come down into the others frogs niche and vice versa. My point is, that in the wild two species would occupy two very different niches, one maybe be ten feet up, and the other no more than a foot or two from the floor, so we may not be giving them as many options as we think. We cannot assume that a given frog will not climb more than a few inches of the floor, or that another will only live in the top 6-12", our tanks are just far too small for real niche diversity in my opinion. Your experience is interesting Rich, as the frogs did not really seem to interact, yet did not fair very well. I was thinking of an illustration. If we had to move into a home with a few other strangers, it would be easier if those strangers were from our culture and spoke our language. If you added a group, from a different culture, different ways of doing things, different language, even if the house was two stories with enough "niches", there would still be a level of stress added. I could be going way to far out on a limb with this one. It would also help if the added people did not have worms! ha ha  

On a side note, beautiful tank Rich, would love to see more.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Deaths of those terribilis followed sooner and more frequently than my other terribils. But it should be noted that the terribilis deaths did not happen immediately or in a few months right after I decided that this mixed tank was not working. It took about 1.5 years for them to start prematurely dropping off.
> The other mixed tank yielded much the same results in somewhat smaller tank with much less inhabitants.
> I can honestly say that to me both tanks were utter failures. Total. But I do not consider husbandry success as simply my frogs being breathing.


Thanks for recounting your experiences, Rich. I agree that husbandry success is far more than simply having living, breathing frogs with appetites in an enclosure, and you have given some hard evidence on why mixing simply doesn't work. Your photo definitely shows an extremely densely planted viv with lots of 'niches'- and that shows me that there is much more to this issue. I won't mix because the evidence is there- reason enough for me.

Jason


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

That was not the answer I was looking for.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Rich,
> 
> I don't understand why parasites are such an issue with dart frogs?


I think Bocomo means that he would like know more about parasites and darts.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12955
This might help you learn more Bocomo.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> That was not the answer I was looking for.


If you haven't already, try the search feature, helps me a lot. Go to the forum, then find the "search" link. There you can type in any word or topic, you can even select the forum you want to search. Look up "parasites" and see what you find. Usually there have been past topics on your questions and you can learn a lot. Hope that helps.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > This is a pic of some of the tank. There were tons of niches in this case.You can get perspective by looking at the terribilis in the lower right and knowing that this is not half of the tanks size pictured.
> ...



You make a great point. Our tanks do not allow the upward movement for a truly arborial species. The 'terrestrial species' move up tanks as high as any backing I have seen made for Darts. And 'arborial' still hit the ground.

Rich


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I know about the search feature. 

Edited by S Harrington


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Sorry, I mean I was asking Mr. Fry.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

E
You left the 'e' out of my name Bocomo.
My answer would also be to use the search function on 'parasites' as well as 'mixing' also 'quarantine'.
But here is a real quick answer for you alone.There are no beneficial parasites know for darts. If your darts have parasites (Do you know if they do? Did you test and qauarantine?) when going into a viv they have contaminated the viv until it is broke down and cleansed . Parasites (there are many) can do everything from little of nothing to kill all of your frogs. That person you see walking down the street with herpes will not die, may 'look happy and healthy' but has herpes. That person does not want uncurable herpes. Coccidia is not curable in darts and can cause MUCH more damage than herpes. Need I go on about the guy walking down the street with HIV?

Rich


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Your now offering HIV as an analogy to parasites in frogs? Where is the logic in that? 
Yes please tell me about the guy with HIV. I want to know. 

Frogs in wild would have long gone extinct if they were not able to handle some parasites.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I can't beleive this post is still swirling the bowl. 

Rich, I know what you are trying to do here and you are trying to do the right thing as I was trying to do the same thing, but some just don't want to listen. I will agree though, I read through the thread and never saw any insults (unless they got deleted), so not sure where those comments came from that others posted. 

For those that think that Rich and I and anyone else in here was badgering Bocomo, the reality is it hurts to see someone make a bad decision. It hurts worse when you try your best to lay out all the reason why they shouldn't do something, yet they still make that bad decision. In the end, it's their decision to make but it doesn't make it any less sad. As has been stated, there has been successful mixed tanks before, but they are not ideal in term of what we can offer, so the passion of those trying to dissuade should be recognized as that and not misconstrued as "stupid newbie" as a couple have stated we portrayed. I am not going to go back and even see who it was that was saying what we were doing was trying to belittle him/her, but you should all realize that when someone is passionate about something, it's not always easy to sit idly by and watch others make mistakes that you feel you could help fix. In the end though, there are some that just don't want to fix things so you have to leave it at that.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

What do other people think about this? As many views this post has recieved there must be someone out there other than Mr. Frye.

Edited by Bill


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Okay before this spins another 15 laps around the track, a few comments.

Bocomo...you have asked your question and can clearly see that froggers with real experience, i.e. Rich Frye and others are pretty much universally against mixing. The three obvious reasons being hybridization, interspecies aggression and the potential for transferral of disease. Any one of these three should be a caution flag but if someone is determined to mix frogs, well that is their choice. The consequences and the responsibility is theirs to own.

Let's not make this a personality battle. Bocomo...you may not like Rich's challenge but I think it is fair to say that he has a lot more experience wtih PDFs than you do. While I may not agree with 100% of his views, I always pay attention because he has a hell of lot more experience than me.

Rich - I think your points have been made. It is quite clear that your logic is not going to persuade Bocomo or he is just egging you on to get your reaction. I recognize that you are very passionate about PDFs and their husbandry but no point in battering your head against a brick wall at this point.

Finally a reminder that personal attacks are not allowed by board rules so let's keep it civil.

Bill


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

I think it is safe to say that frogs can handle 'some' parasites. The problem is that in captivity they will eventually accumulate in their environment/tank to levels that will cause a problem.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Bocomo,

Most of us here aim to reduce as much stress as possible in our animals. This includes building elaborate vivariums, culturing different food varieties, spending time (probably too much ) reading about our captives, etc . . .

When you posted, you asked if it was okay to add your frogs to your tank. You were asking for the opinions of the members of this board, and you got them. Im sorry if the responses are not what you wanted, but please remember that they came from people with more experience than you, some of which had tried mixing before, and that they had only the well-being of you *and* your frogs in mind. 

You have invested time and money in building the viv, purchasing the inhabitants, and learning about their basic care; why risk wasting all this effort to simply have 2 different colors of frogs together? Darts are not only known for their bright colors, but also for their behaviors (ie parental care). In a mixed tank, the added stress *robs* you of the chance to witness this. Sure, its nice to watch some pretty frogs ho around for awhile, but to watch them court, lay and tend to eggs, transport tads . . . is simply amazing. 

Consider your options, that keep the animals' (and in turn, your) best interest in mind. You could build another viv, or possibly trade some frogs back to the breeder/hobbyist you purchased them from (or another local hobbyist), in exchange for some more leucs. They have a beautiful call, are very attractive, and do well in groups. They may not be different colors, but they will quickly make up for that in interesting behaviors, especially when they start to breed. Leucomelas were my first dart, and they are still my favorite.


Take care,

Zach 


As a side note, Rich has been in this hobby a long time, and has had great success with many species that even other experienced hobbyists consider difficult. Along with his brother, Dr. David Frye, DVM, Rich has an understanding of dendrobatid parasites well above that of the average hobbyist. Although he can be a bit abrasive at times (being passionate and being direct often go hand-in-hand), Rich is well worth listening to.


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