# mixed species tank



## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

so i posted this tank a while back but i have since installed it in a local bar. IT contains a pair of imis a pair of azureus and a neonate amazon tree boa....i read some diet studies of amazons and i think i will be ok as far as predation goes....going on two weeks with the snake and so far so good. reproduction from both imis and azureus....sorry about the exposure on the wide shot but wanted to give you an idea of where it was situated.....i know there will be some bashing but i can take it  thanks for looking
ben


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

Dude I totally like the idea! As long as the azureus don't bother the imis, lol and the boa doesn't eat them all. What size tank is it? Also what is the story behind the 'viv in a bar'? There has to be one right?

I can picture it now. A bunch of drunks staring in a viv trying to find the frogs. Real neat idea and its gotta raise awareness for the rain forest.


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## andrew__ (Sep 23, 2007)

Not going to say anything on the mixed species tank other than that you're brave for posting this here! :wink: 

Other than that the tank looks fantastic.


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

Ben knows what he's doing, he's been around for awhile. However, I would be cautious putting any snake in with frogs. I dont think it's worth it :shock: 

You're a brave, brave man.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are a lot of snakes that would be fine with frogs. For example adult Emerald tree boas are perfectly fine as they do not predate on frogs. 

Ed


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

yeah i know it is kinda risky and it may be sacrificing some animal welfare for display impact, but hell over half the people going to the aquarium here in baltimore go to see captive dolphins jump around in a glorified swimming pool....it is neat to watch people walk in and see dart frogs for the first time in a place they would have never expected.....i have had some really great conversations about zoos and conservation and evolution and civilization because of this little terrarium, which is i guess why it is there in the first place. I think the arcade machines have gotten less quarters too


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

oh and i do hate to plug but if there are any baltimore folks that want to grab a beer and talk frogs google "the laughing pint" it is right off eastern in highlandtown


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i dont think its such a bad idea as long as the tank is big enough. i doubt the azureus climb high enough to bother the imis, correct? is the snake CB? even if it is im sure the istinct of "bright colored frog=BAD" is still in there somewhere.

ive kept alot of mixed species from around here that have turned out fine, like 3 long toed salamanders(about 5 inches) with a northwestern salamander(8 inches) and they actually all huddled together when the slept  
its all about thinking through what species, tank size, food and the amount of hiding spaces.

anyway enough rammbling for me. its a great looking tank! did it grow in for awhile or did you just plant it very heavily?


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

so i am at the bar right now (that is where i steal my internet from  and just saw a plump perfect half grown imitator!!!! awesome..... i saw tad transport a couple months ago and now a perfect shiny baby....gonna try to get a shot...


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)




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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

*Wow, talk about a conversation piece.
Nice - Brilliant job!!!*
Imi's look great.


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## MattySF (May 25, 2005)

That's too sweet! I wish it was local for me.


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

yeah california is kinda far  the amazon is captive born my friend shane bred them (this was the ugly baby  ) it was born on 12/12 so it is just over a month old


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Ben, thats one of the coolest ideas i've ever seen (besides your compostium). Do you have to go there and feed them every couple days? Also, did you use double paned glass?
-mark


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## jmoose (Jun 21, 2006)

Very nice looking viv ! 
Did I see this at IAD last May ? 
I think I saw this or the same looking but a little bit smaller one with the light on the side of front window at the event 

Just curious what do you feed on that kind of snake ? 
I have never had any snakes but seen people feeding a baby mouse or snake vendors at Rep show selling frozen ones 
Hope it doesn't show interest in frog as food 

Besides that I only worry about drunk guys banging on the tank to see what's in there :lol:


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## MattySF (May 25, 2005)

Could we please see another full tank shot as well as some other angles of the interior. thanks.


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

yeah i can get some more shots but probably wont be around there for another day to feed everybody. This is the same tank that was at IAD but it has since undergone some equipment overhauls, which will continue. My original blower fan burnt up while i was away and i didnt have a temp cutout and it scorched all the plants and killed a frog (the dangers of running 200 watts on a tiny system) I upgraded to two blowers so i have redundancy. I want to swap out the two 55 watt cfls that are mounted vertically in the front with some nice t5's which i think will actually throw about the same light because i had to compromise reflector efficiency fitting the cfl's in the front.....i actually built this tank originally with only front lighting but the hqi metal halides started to warp the acrylic no matter how much air i moved over them. Have you ever noticed how pretty a terrarium looks when you look down in them in the same direction as their light input? that was the idea behind front lighting. IT also helps with light drop out although it is hard to tell in the photos.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

_*DUDE THIS IS SO WRONG!!!*_

*Underage frogs in a bar, what were you thinking?!!!*



P.S. I know Ben has a lot of experiance and personaly, I do not have a problem with his tank. It's just funny though, if it had not been someone like Ben (someone we all wish we could be, I know I do  ) everyone would have ripped into him. Just a thought.

Good job Ben! You always have stunning work!


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## Regan (Oct 30, 2007)

Please, please, pretty please do a pinball machine viv! You could keep the boa up where the scoreboard would be and the dart frogs could go on the bottom... oh! and the coco huts could go in place of the bumpers!


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## Fenrir (Jul 30, 2007)

Nice tank, how big is it? I dont think i saw specs but i could just be blind. 

Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?


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## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

> Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?


theoretically yes. how much they will be willing to is a different story.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The most likely scenario would probably be egg piracy for them but since they have different colored eggs I don't think it's super likely... and in a tank like that they can definately stay away from each other (which is often the issue with mixed species tanks now allowing both species to have their niche and live away from each other) now stick a treefrog in that tank with the boa and then tell me it doens't eat frogs


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## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

What is a neonate amazon tree boa? I do a search and it comes up with the Emerald Tree Boa. Are they the same?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

neonate = baby

amazon tree boa = Corallus hortulanus

emerald tree boa = Corallus caninus 

ETBs and ATBs are pretty closely related, with the amazons being slimmer and having a huge variety of color in their clutches.


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## stuckonfrogs (Oct 27, 2006)

What a great idea! Thanks for sharing, and for being bold enough to post this idea here. Keep us posted


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## Chondroholic (Aug 18, 2005)

Viv looks awesome Ben. We should have taken a side trip so I could check out  ...maybe next time.

-Brian


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnnymo said:


> > Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?
> 
> 
> theoretically yes. how much they will be willing to is a different story.


Just to hijack (hopefully briefly) based on what criteria? 

Ed


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

actually corey there is still an ebrecatta in there  so far so good....found two baby imis so far....


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

johnnymo said:


> > Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?
> 
> 
> theoretically yes. how much they will be willing to is a different story.


I would actually lean more towards theoretically no. The genetics of it could get a bit muddy, but you can't just breed em together becuae they are both frogs. They have to be genetically compatable, have similar genomes, etc, etc. I would tend to believe that this is not the case....

On a separate note... some people seem to be SOOO surprised that Ben is not getting ripped for a mixed species tank. The key here is experience. This isn't his first frogs (like it is most that are fanatical about wanting to mix), he understands niches and tank design to make them, and has the knowledge to understand what he's looking for to give clues that something might be going wrong. There is a huge difference between this tank and frogger than the average "I want to mix this with this" question that typically gets torn apart.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sbreland said:


> johnnymo said:
> 
> 
> > > Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?
> ...


Not to mention, the not inconsiderable differences in reproductive behaviors...... 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

So hortulanus, even as babies, don't predate on frogs? I guess if they do they'd prefer large treefrogs if anything.


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## andrew__ (Sep 23, 2007)

I would assume that being from the Amazon region especially these snakes would probably be well aware that bright colours = bad meal (even for CB)...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

andrew__ said:


> I would assume that being from the Amazon region especially these snakes would probably be well aware that bright colours = bad meal (even for CB)...


If I remember correctly it is thought that snakes have very poor color vision so I would be hesitant to characterize the color as a reason the snakes avoid predating on the frogs. 

Ed


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## andrew__ (Sep 23, 2007)

Fair enough. Still though, I'm sure the snakes would have some way of recognizing that the frogs are dangerous, even if not strictly colour based.


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## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> neonate = baby
> 
> amazon tree boa = Corallus hortulanus
> 
> ...


Thanks.


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

there are a couple good diet studies of amazons and i think of all the animals they looked at there was one possible amphibian eaten. For the mainland varieties it was something like 98% of their diet was warm blooded prey. The island varieties also consumed a good amount of small lizards as juvies. I know this is a mixed species tank and even though it is working so far there is of course a risk involved and i still discourage the majority of people from trying to mix any species. I prefer not to but to compete with pac man and pic hunt it was in my eyes warranted. All of my tanks at home have no animals in them at all (unless you look very closely ) but it takes a while to appreciate watching plants growing which is something the average bar patron can not be expected to do.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

andrew__ said:


> Fair enough. Still though, I'm sure the snakes would have some way of recognizing that the frogs are dangerous, even if not strictly colour based.


Yes. scent. 

Ed


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Ed said:


> andrew__ said:
> 
> 
> > Fair enough. Still though, I'm sure the snakes would have some way of recognizing that the frogs are dangerous, even if not strictly colour based.
> ...


And diet specialization.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Very cool...

Wonder if I can talk a local tavern into this?


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## aquascott (Oct 18, 2006)

dude are you talking smack about the aquarium????? thats messed up ben. so do the fruit flies like the bar??? i will see you friday.


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## iamyour_messiah (Oct 29, 2007)

Ed said:


> sbreland said:
> 
> 
> > johnnymo said:
> ...


Not to mention, that they are (now, at least) in two completely different genera. I'm pretty sure that any animals wanting to hybridize have to at least be in the same genus. (And just cause they were both listed as Dendrobates before, still doesn't make the hybridization possible!)

But ya that aside even, just by their tendency to live at very different heights, and one species displaying special parental care, AND the obvious anatomical differences I would never even imagine an instance of hybridization. Oh and also the difference in egg color/number should be indicative of something too!

and like everybody else said, really nice looking terrarium. Im sure having a snake hang up in the canopy like that gives a real awesome feel to it. Heres hoping none of your frogs become a midnight snack (nocturnal snake I'm guessing?)


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed said:


> andrew__ said:
> 
> 
> > I would assume that being from the Amazon region especially these snakes would probably be well aware that bright colours = bad meal (even for CB)...
> ...


.....and isn't it a snake that happens to be one of the very few animals that eat big , bright terribilis in the wild?

Rich


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And I'm sure that snake knows exactly what the PDFs that it predates on smell like.

The genera bit holds only slightly more water than two different species cannot breed together. It's more complicated than that... there are some intergeneric breeding although it's not common.

As Ed mentioned, it's not just the genetics, or even the physical ability, but there is also ingrained behaviors. The frogs have ingrained behaviors to have them recognize a possible mate for courtship (otherwise there will be no courtship) as well as egg piracy (the most likely scenerio for some of the mixed species tanks isn't that the frogs courted and laid eggs, but a male from the other species came in a pirated the eggs - fertilizing them thinking they were the same species). Not only do these animals have complex courtships and recognition for species (how else do you think two species that are identical and live in the same area don't interbreed constantly?) but the species involved here have completely different colored eggs so I don't even see egg pricacy happening...

As for the ebraccata... Ben come on, stop risking it being a possible frog snack when I've got babies I'm raising up that wouldn't mine another bloodline to join the crew... tsk tsk. Had to take care of the parents this weekend who were sick with the Flu  maybe I can check this place out another weekend.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> .....and isn't it a snake that happens to be one of the very few animals that eat big , bright terribilis in the wild?
> 
> Rich


So Rich are you implying/saying 
all because one snake eats terriblis, all snakes will eat dart frogs? 

Ed


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > .....and isn't it a snake that happens to be one of the very few animals that eat big , bright terribilis in the wild?
> ...


No Ed, I was saying that it would make sense that snakes could have poor color vision if one is known prey on bright terribilis. Color not being "a reason the snakes avoid predating on frogs." An example of such.

Rich


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> Ed said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="Rich Frye":1yee9230]
> ...


No Ed, I was saying that it would make sense that snakes could have poor color vision if one is known prey on bright terribilis. Color not being "a reason the snakes avoid predating on frogs." An example of such.

Rich[/quote:1yee9230]

The snake that eats Terribilis is specialized to do so. If a normal snake ate a wild terribilis, it would go belly up before even swallowing. Tree boas are more adapted for feeding on warm birds and arboreal mammals and if kept in the same enclosure as dart frogs, just ignore them due to a lack of body heat. A good example would be the Nashville Zoo's Azureus/Emerald Tree boa exhibit. The same frogs have lived with the same boa since 1999 and the worst thing to happen was one female azureus drowned the other in the water feature. There is only one snake and six azureus who breed fairly often in the snake's presence.

That is a beautiful vivarium by the way! Please post more pictures as the inhabitants grow!


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Onagro said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > Ed said:
> ...





Orangro said:


> The snake that eats Terribilis is specialized to do so. If a normal snake ate a wild terribilis, it would go belly up before even swallowing.


Right. I (and I guess most) would expect that the frog that eats terribilis evolved to do so. Again, just an example of a Dart frog eating snake not avoiding a bright , cold blooded frog.



Orangro said:


> ..... and the worst thing to happen was one female azureus drowned the other in the water feature.


[/quote:fg2zsh8g]

At last. A witnessed drowning. Please PM me with the details of this witnessed or taped drowning. I have been digging for such evidence for years.

Rich


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Having volunteered at a well known institution that kept a variety of snakes with PDFs, the worst I saw or heard of was an eyelash viper that after many years was found with a pumilio in her throat, and having to seperate a vine snake from it's attempted auratus meal (again after living years with those frogs... I don't know why they suddenly thought to try for a meal since they were well fed). Both are known frog eaters tho... I knew amazons could be lizard eaters as babies (adult ETBs were also kept with tincs with no issues but adults are also so big they wouldn't even think about something that small as food) but wasn't sure if they'd take out a treefrog just as well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> Ed said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="Rich Frye":2oftxspx]
> ...


No Ed, I was saying that it would make sense that snakes could have poor color vision if one is known prey on bright terribilis. Color not being "a reason the snakes avoid predating on frogs." An example of such.

Rich[/quote:2oftxspx]

This was unclear in your statement as your statement gave a strong appearence of if any snake ate dart frogs then all snakes would eat dart frogs. 

Color vision in the manner in which we see is not as widespread as many people think, for mammals other than primates typically cannot see yellow-green, green, yellow, orange, and red (which should also be the same colors seen by the snakes based on thier rods and cones so to a snake a "big , bright terribilis" is not bright but shades of grey). Birds can see more colors (ranging further into the UVA spectra as can many lizards. 

Ed


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## aquascott (Oct 18, 2006)

i have seen an oxybelis vine snake suddenly decide that after years of living together a giant bicolor waxy frog would make a good meal.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Ed said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > Ed said:
> ...


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## froggiefriend (Jan 4, 2008)

> Very cool...
> 
> Wonder if I can talk a local tavern into this?
> _________________
> Brian T. Sexton


Let me know if you do - I would definately travel to see it!


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Any update on this viv??? or how the inhabitants are doing?


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Any new pics Ben? :wink:


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Any updates? 4 year old thread... Crossing my fingers...

Jake


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

jacobi said:


> Any updates? 4 year old thread... Crossing my fingers...
> 
> Jake


Better cross your toes too...


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

i didnt read through the entire thread, but is nobody concerned about the noise atmosphere of a bar affecting the frogs? I don't know alot on this point but I don't hear much talk of it


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

EvilLost said:


> i didnt read through the entire thread, but is nobody concerned about the noise atmosphere of a bar affecting the frogs? I don't know alot on this point but I don't hear much talk of it


They would most likely adapt to it after a bit.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

You know, back to the snake/frog issue, I'm here in Colorado, and at the Denver Zoo, they have a long running exhibit with eyelash vipers in a tank with Auratus. Never lost a single frog. Theres even a sign in front of the display talking about bright colors being a warning and that the snakes KNOW not to mess with them.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

pdfCrazy said:


> You know, back to the snake/frog issue, I'm here in Colorado, and at the Denver Zoo, they have a long running exhibit with eyelash vipers in a tank with Auratus. *Never lost a single frog.* Theres even a sign in front of the display talking about bright colors being a warning and that the snakes KNOW not to mess with them.


That's a bold assumption


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> i didnt read through the entire thread, but is nobody concerned about the noise atmosphere of a bar affecting the frogs? I don't know alot on this point but I don't hear much talk of it


I tried to find it earlier, but I couldn't coz I was busy. There's a thread where people were discussing playing loud music, one guy said he uses Metallica, to get their frogs to breed... 

Jake


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

my frogs like the vacuum cleaner


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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

I don't have a bar to put a frog viv in, so I think I'm going to try to add a bar to my frog room.


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## rahunt2 (Jan 4, 2009)

In the Shedd aquarium they had a display tank with a couple species of dart frog as well as an Emerald Tree Boa in the same enclosure.
It seemed to work okay for them but Amazon's do eat more frogs when they are young than Emeralds.


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## dizzydean (Dec 26, 2017)

I see others have asked...
5 years ago... 
regarding a 10 year old post...

lol

does anyone know how this all turned out for ben?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VicSkimmr said:


> That's a bold assumption


I worked with one with the same mix for close to ten years without losing any auratus to the snakes. I used to have a picture of a auratus sitting on the head of a yellow eyelash eating Trilobium confusum (confused flour beetle) beetles. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dizzydean said:


> I see others have asked...
> 5 years ago...
> regarding a 10 year old post...
> 
> ...


From what I remember talking to Ben about it, he took the tank down after the snake had gotten a good bit bigger....in part because they do damage the plants. currently Ben is on the west coast and is part of the staff that setup Amazon's Biodomes. 


some comments 

Ed


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## dizzydean (Dec 26, 2017)

Ed said:


> From what I remember talking to Ben about it, he took the tank down after the snake had gotten a good bit bigger....in part because they do damage the plants. currently Ben is on the west coast and is part of the staff that setup Amazon's Biodomes.
> 
> 
> some comments
> ...


Thanks for the info!


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