# Need Help ASAP--Limp Terribilis!



## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

While going to feed my P. terribilis today (2, in quarrantine), I found one of the frogs sitting motionless in one corner of the container (this is the frog that is usually the more agressive feeder). 
I thought the frog was dead, but upon picking it up, I found that there was some throat movement and a heartbeat. 

Quarrantine container is sealed with sphagnum and leaf litter, and humidity is high. Temps in the room run from 75 to 78, and there's no direct light on the quarrantine container. 

The frogs last ate Monday, FF's dusted with Herpvite, and before that on Friday, small crickets dusted w/RepCal.

Please help....


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Wow......need more info.

I would try for temps of 75 and some ventilation and air movement - 75% humidity, not 90%.


please add as much other relevant info as you can think of...


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

how is the ventilation in the container?


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

I've removed the motionless frog and have it in a cup with a small amount of water, and have been misting every few minutes (in case it's heat stress). I've also moved the quarrantine container (large clear rubbermaid 2'x1'x1') (w/the other frog inside) to a "cold spot" in the room that's about 73. 
The other frog in the container does act a little more sluggish than usual.

I bought these guys at the Daytona show, and they've been doing great--no issues, until today. They usually inhale any food I put in the container with them... It has been warmer than this in the house, as we had our a/c serviced two weeks ago (it was shut off for several hours while the coils were cleaned--and I paced nervously as the house got up to 80....)


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Julio said:


> how is the ventilation in the container?


I've never put any ventiliation in the rubbermaid containers, as they don't seal very tight. I've quarrantined all my frogs in this type of container, and have never had an issue...


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

You might call who you got them from to see if they have any suggestions.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

billschwinn said:


> You might call who you got them from to see if they have any suggestions.


Thanks Bill. I have a call to the breeder, but am waiting for a return call.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

just offhand, I would say high temps (80F) and not enough air movement.

Possible Co2 issue......


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> just offhand, I would say high temps (80F) and not enough air movement.
> 
> Possible Co2 issue......


Any Suggestions? I've placed the deli cup with the frog in question in the same cool spot with the quarrantine container, and covered with a vented fruit fly lid. I also gave the frog a few drops of diluted pedialyte.

The other frog is now extremely active in hte cooler location...if this is any clue.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Sounds like you are on top of it....

The regular viv......you may want to recheck the design.

I know it gets hot in central Fl...believe me, I am shuddering at the fact of maintaining my collection in Broward. I have a hurricane evacuation plan and 2 different gas generators - just for the frogs already !

I lost a couple Leucs one summer - due to heat and lack of air movement combined. I am sure of it. Ed had a post where C02 buildup then becomes a deadly issue.....

Just try for AC or lower temps and some increased air movement while still maintaining humidity. I would just hydrate with room temperature aged tap or bottled spring water.

Keep us posted.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Thanks Phil.

Yeah, temp's here are a real pain. We had record highs in June (105 for three days, that's with 90% humidity)--not fun. I keep all of my frogs in two rooms, and can move them to one (for which I have a large room-type a/c in my garage that will run on generator power for H-words). 

I always keep the room at a maximum of 78, and drop the temps to 74 at night during the summer. My two largest vivariums actually keep temperatures about 2 degrees below room temp with the ventilation, misting, and fogging system(s) I have set up.

I've wondered about CO2 issues, and am concerned that this may be the situation here. The frog in question is still fairly unresponsive now (and has been out for over 2 hours). 

Should I try adding some straight O2 into the container? What I have is a little out of date (since I don't do that much diving lately), or would it be best to give the frog a little more time?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I guess you could give O2 a try.

Be careful with adding more stressors to an already debilitated animal though.

what size frogs are we talking about? Quarter sized or half dollar?


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> I guess you could give O2 a try.
> 
> Be careful with adding more stressors to an already debilitated animal though.
> 
> what size frogs are we talking about? Quarter sized or half dollar?


That's what worried me was additional stress. The terribilis are about 30mm from nose to vent.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

How fat is the frog having problems?
If it was co2 or heat the other frog would have problems also.
Most likely impaction or internal problems(bacteria, parasite, etc.).
Anything environmental should affect both frogs.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> How fat is the frog having problems?
> If it was co2 or heat the other frog would have problems also.
> Most likely impaction or internal problems(bacteria, parasite, etc.).
> Anything environmental should affect both frogs.


The frog is of a healthy weight, but not fat (I have some azureus that could stand in for Jabba the Hutt). I haven't seen anything that would suggest impaction. 

Fecals on these frogs came back clean from the local vet lab that I've used for all of my frogs.

This terribilis is the larger of the two frogs, but not by much. The behavior pattern, food consumption, and activity of both frogs was nearly identical up until today. Both frogs were moving about in their enclosure last night around midnight when I went to bed (my quarrantined frogs keep my hours since they don't have their own lights...).


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Anything environmental should affect both frogs.


I disagree....there could always be a slightly different tollerance from one frog to another, even if they are the exact same age and size.

I just don't think we can make a blanket statement like that...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

RarePlantBroker said:


> my quarrantined frogs....


Were these frogs in a quarrantine enclosure?


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Were these frogs in a quarrantine enclosure?


Yes, these frogs are in a quarrantine enclosure.

After not seeing any changes, I went and purchased some Calcium gluconate, and administered some. Within 1 minute, the frog turned its head and looked at me (first noticable movement all afternoon. I'll post back soon with an update...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

interesting!


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Okay, after dinner and a little work, I went to check on the frog. 

I noted that the frog now seems more alert, there is more movement in the throat, and when opening the container the frog was able to move its front legs. 
So far, there is no resumption of movement in the back legs. I applied a second treatment of the Calcium gluconate solution. I'll check again in a couple of hours, and post an update....

Meanwhile, if anyone has a guess on this one, or a better course of treatment feel free to post or PM. 

Thank you to everyone for your help today.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

RarePlantBroker said:


> Okay, after dinner and a little work, I went to check on the frog.
> 
> I noted that the frog now seems more alert, there is more movement in the throat, and when opening the container the frog was able to move its front legs.
> So far, there is no resumption of movement in the back legs. I applied a second treatment of the Calcium gluconate solution. I'll check again in a couple of hours, and post an update....
> ...


please keep us updated on this
ive been following this all day and hope to see this come to a happy ending


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

RarePlantBroker said:


> Fecals on these frogs came back clean from the local vet lab that I've used for all of my frogs.


One "clean" fecal sample does not guarantee your frogs are free of pathogens. Many parasites have cyclic breeding patterns so it is very possible that if your frogs have something it did not show up in the first sample examined. Some people send multiple fecals collected over an extended period of time (2-6 weeks) to get a more accurate idea of the types of parasites a frog may be carrying, but even with numerous samples there is a possibility of missing something.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Well, it's been a long evening. While my frog isn't looking as good as it should, the prognosis looks much better now than it did earlier today. Following the second Calcium gluconate application, I did see a couple of attempts to hop. When moving around, I noticed a small red spot (smaller than a pen mark) on the moist towel in the bottom of the deli cup. When looking through a magnifying glass I did find a small rub/sore on the left rear leg (sounds similar to what others on the board have posted in regards to keeping terribilis in "wet" vivariums).
I decided to set up two new quarrantine enclosures. I moved the healthy terribilis into one, and the frog I've been posting about into the other. I set these containers up with a smooth gravel substrate (large tumbled aquarium gravel 3/8"-1/2"), oak leaf litter, and a couple of curled seagrape leaves for a hide/perch. When moving the ill frog, it actually started hopping and clinging to the deli cup as I tried to move it into the new enclosure.

I'll see how things go in the morning, and if all looks well I'll attempt to feed some FF's.

I also sent a couple of emails to some folks with a little extra knowledge--including Dr. Frye.

Thanks again for all the responses, and I'll post some updates tomorrow.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

My first thought also was an impaction. Terribilis are such agressive feeders, perhaps a piece of moss was eaten along with the flies/crickets.

I have a group of orange terribilis. I lost one in much the way you are describing. Fat, active, agressively feeding frog. I found it one day motionless and I thought dead. It was still alive and I moved it to QT on wet papertowels. It got better for a day or two and then I found it dead. The rest of the group was fine and continues to be fine. The tank they were in was a cocofiber substrate, covered with damp moss and some leaf litter.

I hope your results are better than mine. Good luck.

Deb


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

The frog had eaten a few FF's on Friday, but still seemed a little sluggish. I was hoping for continued improvement, but I am sad to report that my terribilis has passed on. I went to check on the frog this morning and found it dead in the side of the enclosure. I've placed the frog in a glass container of formalin, and will look into a necropsy on Monday. 
I'll let you know the results.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

That sucks


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm sorry it didn't work out better for you.

Deb


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

salix said:


> I'm sorry it didn't work out better for you.
> 
> Deb


Sorry bout the way that turned out


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