# My first viv. build. - 18x18x18 Zoomed - Waterfall, Drip wall, and other mods.



## LandonL (Jan 5, 2011)

So, I am new to the forums here, but I have been reading a lot the last day or two. My other thread answered a lot of my questions, and the wealth of information here is amazing. I think I have basically worked out my build plans, and will start detailing them out here as I go along. Hopefully I will have my build complete and ready for planting in a few weeks, then on to adding a pair of Dendrobates auratus blues.

I just ordered a 18x18x18 Zoo Med terrarium and the Habba Mister from my Local Fish Store. I also got the Exo-Terra Fogger to go in my small water feature/pond that I will be building. Although this shop is a fish store, the owner is a friend of mine, and can order stuff for me (at a great deal too). I am really happy to have a local resource so I don't have to totally rely on mailorder.

The plan so far is to create a false bottom with eggcrate on top of PVC legs. This will be covered with mesh screening that slopes into the water. I will put some gravel in the bottom of the water feature to cover the edges, and will stack some smooth river stones up the slope leading to the ground area.

For substrate I think I have decided on a small layer of soil on top of the mesh, then cover that with sphagnum moss, which will in turn be covered by leaf litter. Does this sound good? Will this harbor the proper amount of microfauna?

I am going to try and draw some Google Sketch Up models of my background setup with drip wall integrated. I really, really, need some help with this part, so I think once I get the sketches up, maybe some other members can help me tweak them.

The plan is to have a water fall, that starts in the top left. It will fall over rocks a few inches, then traverse the tank in a channel along the back wall, and turn forward, coming down the bottom half of the right side, into the small water area that covers the front few inches of the tank. The idea with it traversing the back wall, is to have the drip wall area above it, so that any run off water just goes into the channel midway up the wall, and comes down the second waterfall.

What should I build my wall out of? I have seen so many good idea on the forums here. Basically I want the drip wall to hold enough moisture to allow proper growth of algae and plants.

I have access to a very lightweight concrete mixture that is so light weight, it floats on water. Is there anything in concrete that I should worry about? Won't it affect the pH of the water? Will any of the additives harm the frogs? I am contemplating building my waterfall apparatus and channel out of this, with stonework inlaid. 

As for the drip wall, I am thinking it needs to be constructed of coconut fiber, moss, and clay litter. How does this sound?

I welcome any construction advice, previous experience, and critiques of the various materials used to build water features, backgrounds, drip walls, etc.

Hope to hear from other members!
Landon


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

I will comment on the shore line of your water feature and your substrate layering.

From my experience I have found that using slate or some other sheet rock stacked and siliconed together in almost a brick pattern which interlocks and sloped at and angle works really well for an edge of a water feature. The sloped screen and eggcrate doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I don't use soil right on top of my screen in my vivs becaust I don't want the loose particals to fall through. I use a bit of moss then soil and then esthetic moss.

Best


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I honestly have not attempted anything remotely close to what you are doing yet. I kept my first tanks simple with a false bottom...but no water features. (BTW I doubled my screen layer...I read somewhere that this will help prevent the soil from finding its way into the false bottom). If this is your first viv, you've taken on quite a project! I wish you the best of luck! 

You've come a long way in less than 24 hours!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Slope screen is possible, but some kind of barrier like Qauz suggests is easier, and actually even if I was doing a gradual sloping shore, which I plan to in order to better grow some utricularia in future vivs I would make it slope down into the water but then have a short dam to help hold the substrate there, and then it would drop down into even deeper water from there, so essentially still a shoreline with a substrate barrier but underwater in my version for utricularia. Also a thin layer of moss, or coco mat works too over your screen to keep small particles from falling through is a good idea, doubling and/or criss crossing the mesh helps also, but the small stuff still slips through which generally isn't a problem unless you use a lot of fine sand in your substrate mix.

Concrete may need to rinsed with in vinegar to balance the ph. There are threads that go into detail on concrete I don't have much experience with it. 

Dripwall material, i'd use tree fern board and/or long fiber sphagnum moss, really you can use a mix of materials. Hell throw some cork, rock shelves and drift wood up there too. If you want the stream to catch the excess which isn't a bad idea, you'll have to make it run along the back glass so the water just doesn't slip past your stream, but you've probably figured that out. But if not just be aware unless its an all rock background with no holes the water isn't going to just run down the face of it, its going to soak through it and actually most will end up running down the back glass if there is actually any "running" at all. Tom's pumps are cheap, excellent ways to make low flow drip walls and small waterfalls. Just be aware the plastic connections for the airline break easily so be careful sticking the lines on or taking them off. I think in the future what I'll do is attach a short piece on the intake and another on the output, silicone all that into place to reinforce it then use connectors to connect the rest of the line to those short pieces so if I want to remove the pump or change the lines I can just disconnect them there instead of pulling them free from the red plastic area and risk breaking the plastic connections. 










It is also a good idea to get the prefilter or rubber band somekind of filter material to the end of the intake hose in the water so it doesn't suck up particles that clog the pump. It will decrease flow a bit but its better then a clogged pump. These are only good for running small features, or short dripwalls...like the back of a 20L, for larger waterfalls you'll probably want a more standard pump, and for longer drip walls then 2 feet, probably a standard pump or multiple tom's pumps....the good thing is you can plumb all the pumps to use the same intake line, just put several "T"s going off it and connect the other pumps' intake lines to those T's. The extra suction from multiple pumps will help all pumps work more consistantly since any pump that is a weak link (partial clog, has to lift water higher then another pump, etc..etc..) gets a little bit of help from the others. Just to be clear how high the dripwall is isn't much of a concern with these pumps or others since as long as the pump runs long enough gravity and physics will pull the water down the wall and spread it throughout...so 1 tom's pump could run a drip wall 6 feet high, but running the whole thing if it was more then 2 feet long would be a bit of a stretch for 1 pump. Its is also best to drill or melt holes in the air line as the line tends to self seal if u just poke holes in it with a pin or nail...and use as few as you can spaced out as far as possible, but where you still think you'll get adequate coverage once the water soaks in. To many holes and/or holes to big and the water just trickles out before it runs the length of the drip wall lines and you don't get adequate coverage. 

Check this thread out, it may help you with some of what you want to do...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-mosaic-living-drip-wall-pond-method-how.html

Searching through other threads I've started or even my other posts if you wanna dig deep may yield a lot of info you'll find useful for doing what you are wanting to do.


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## LandonL (Jan 5, 2011)

Dave,
Thanks for stopping by and looking over my thread. Thats a good idea about the aqualifter pumps. I use two of those for Automatic Top Off on my reef tanks, of which I have 6. Slight obsession, I know.

Thanks for the drip wall tips on construction also. I will look into those. I will soak and concrete structure in a slightly acidic bath, and I imagine it is the lime that goes into the mix that causes a pH shift.

Instead of an aqualifter, I may use a a T valve to airline tubing coming from the pump that runs the waterfall. That may give me enough of a trickle to run the wall using 1 device.



Quaz said:


> The sloped screen and eggcrate doesn't sound like a good idea to me.


I should have specified a little better. The mesh is basically just going to drop off the platform to the bottom. It serves more as a barrier than a slope. I am going to use rocks to make the shore and side. Thanks for the silicone idea. That is going to be a great way to hold them together.



WendySHall said:


> You've come a long way in less than 24 hours!


Hello again Wendy! I am a fast learner, and a quick reader 

Landon


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

LandonL said:


> Dave,
> Thanks for stopping by and looking over my thread. Thats a good idea about the aqualifter pumps. I use two of those for Automatic Top Off on my reef tanks, of which I have 6. Slight obsession, I know.
> 
> Thanks for the drip wall tips on construction also. I will look into those. I will soak and concrete structure in a slightly acidic bath, and I imagine it is the lime that goes into the mix that causes a pH shift.
> ...


Ha! If you were into reef tanks enough to have 6, you'll have 30+ dart tanks in the next couple years  Anyways good luck, post pics!


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## LandonL (Jan 5, 2011)

Dave,
I would assume I can find some of the proper cork and tree fern board in the local Petsmart? The LFS I have in town is fish only, and there really isn't a place in town here with an amphibian specialty or selection. My access is mostly going to be things found in the Petsmart, or from the local hardware store.

Landon


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

LandonL said:


> Dave,
> I would assume I can find some of the proper cork and tree fern board in the local Petsmart? The LFS I have in town is fish only, and there really isn't a place in town here with an amphibian specialty or selection. My access is mostly going to be things found in the Petsmart, or from the local hardware store.
> 
> Landon


You can get cork panels there, either rough pieces or actual boards that are flat on the back, rough/natural on the front...very handy. Tree fern is often a little harder to come by locally, at least here. May have to order it. LFS? Long fiber sphagnum moss right? Sphag is sphag, I buy my stuff from lowes or home depot. As long as you get the tan natural stuff, like for potting orchids and not the dyed green stuff you are good to go. Zoo med also sells some at petco or petsmart but its a smaller portion for a bigger price then garden stores or online.

A couple more notes after re-reading your post. The fogger in the water concerns some because the ultrasound super heats the water while atomizing it, so right at the fogger a frog could potentially burn themselves....it doesn't do much to heat the actual pond water or tank, and honestly unless they sit on it its not much threat, but supposedly people have had it happen. I never have, I just gave up on them because in the ponds of our vivs and the crap they are subjected to they wear out really fast. At the very least put it on a timer and only have it come on 1 or a few times a day for short periods of time. It will last much longer. They are not needed, they are mostly for visual effect rather then really doing much to increase the humidity except for short periods. (that mist dissipates into the atmosphere and humdity drops back to where it was pretty fast).

The preferred method is a home humidifier (cool mist types) that uses those same ultrasonic thingies but is outside the tank and you run a hose from the output of the humidifier to a hole in the top of your tank, just inside the tank (cover end of hose with mesh so frog doesn't climb up it) and basically pump the fog in from above. There are threads on how to do it if you search. The added benifit to those is that you can fill them with pure distilled water which dosen't muck up the membrane on the ultrasonic fogger like the crap in your viv water will and the things will last much much much longer  Again not a must have item, but can be a little helpful for humidity and adds a nice visual "wow" effect to the viv 

On the habba mist.... Word is they suck, kinda spray rather then mist and don't hold a lot of water, kinda expensive for what you get. Hand misting is how most go unless its for alot of tanks and/or a big really nice display tank. If you want a mist system I'd go with a mistking starter system, or maybe even check out the new exoterra monsoon...
Exo-Terra Monsoon RS400 High-pressure Misting System

Its a pretty slick looking mist system but in truth from the reports I've heard you're better off with getting a mistking and a 5gal bucket...it will be a much better quality system and more versatile/expandable system. The only advantage to the moonsoon is the water reservoir looks nicer then a bucket. I think marty is even throwing in the seconds timer on a new starter system all for 99 bucks...which if I was getting a system for 1 or just a few tanks that is what I'd get. You want that seconds timer too, because that gives you precise control over how much you mist and will help you to grow a lot of plants, keep humidity up without flooding your tank etc..etc... You can do all that with hand mister too of course. To be fair i think the monsoon has a seconds timer built in, but still Marty's mistking systems are the much higher quality/better buy.

Anyways hope that helps some more, sorry if I burst your bubble on some of those products, I'd just thought you'd wanna know. Up to you what you do there, they certainly won't destroy your efforts they just may not be the optimum solutions


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## LandonL (Jan 5, 2011)

Hey Dave,



Dendro Dave said:


> LFS? Long fiber sphagnum moss right?


Haha, sorry for the confusion, so used to typing on reef forums. LFS is short for Local Fish Store. Word of habit for me.

I think we are on the same page for the fogger. It is more for just effect, no real reason other than to look interesting, and only for a few periods during the day. I don't plan on depending on it for anything. I was planning to place it somewhere the frog wouldn't get to it, but thanks for the warning about them getting hurt, as I don't want that to happen. I also like your idea of an outside humidifier. I may just make one using the fogger and some engineering.

You mentioned heating also, do I need a heater? I was thinking that I did not need one, but if you think I need something like one of those mat heaters for under the viv, let me know.



Dendro Dave said:


> On the habba mist.... Word is they suck, kinda spray rather then mist and don't hold a lot of water, kinda expensive for what you get.


Thanks for the tip on this one. I still have time to cancel that part of the order. I was kind of wondering about that myself. I would imagine the Monsoon is of similar quality, wouldn't you think? I know hand misting is fine, but with my reef tanks I learned one thing. Automation is your best friend.

I like the Mist King systems. I may call him and see if he will sell the Ultimate Value System without the timer. It does look like a great timer, but it will end up being redundant for me. I am probably going to end up using one of my reef controllers to run the system. This is another reason I am apprehensive about the Habba or the Monsoon, as I actually don't need their automation. What I have really been searching for, is simply a misting pump without all the other stuff, because I am already going to have a microcontroller that can turn it on and off based on RH and/or a timer. Do we use RH for Relative Humidity in dendrospeak? 



Dendro Dave said:


> Anyways hope that helps some more, sorry if I burst your bubble on some of those products, I'd just thought you'd wanna know. Up to you what you do there, they certainly won't destroy your efforts they just may not be the optimum solutions


You have been a ton of help, and your not busting my bubble. I would rather know before I got it, than regret it later. Pieces of knowledge like this could have literally saved me thousands on my reefs.  So much equipment there I had to learn about with trial, error, then regret.

What kind of advice can you give me on supplements for dusting the FFs? Should I just stick with Rep Cal Calcium and Herptivite. Should I add Dendrocare into the mix, or replace the Herptivite with it?

Landon


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

ah, fish store...ok makes sense now 

As far as heater only if your house temps drop really low sometimes, in which case the pads, or in some cases a submersible heater can be warranted but most darts are good down to night time drops in the 60's even 50's though that might be pushing it a bit. Generally most people have a problem with tanks getting to hot if anything. Between low 70's- 80 is the sweet spot for most darts, specific species or morphs will favor low 70's while others will favor mid to high 70's but pretty much if you are in that area you are ok. They can take short term spikes in temp but if your tanks are 80+, especially into the 90's or higher for more then a few hours a day or 2 at most, the longer that goes on the more chance of dead frogs...but any frog that looks dead should be given 48hours to make sure it really is dead. I have actually seen a frog come back from over heating almost 2 days later, when it seemed dead in the meantime. Low 80s won't kill most frogs anytime soon but it stresses them if it is over long periods...its when you approach 90+ that you enter the real danger zone even in the short term. 

The monsoon from what I hear is probably quite a step up from the habba mist, but still not near the quality of the mistking. I can't speak for Marty but he may work with you a bit on price for pump only or a basic system minus the timer. As for RH, I wouldn't say its common dendrospeak exactly, but I think many would get it from the context 

The rep cal d3/herpavite 50/50 combo or maybe a 60/40 ratio favoring calcium d3 as the 60 is tried and true...but a lot of people are switching over to the rapashy calcium +ICB Click to buy repashy calcium plus icb (8 oz) from Josh's Frogs. We also have wide ranges of vitamins/supplements. Fast shipping. Excellent services - Josh's Frogs since it contains both in stable forms so you don't need to pre-mix, not that it is hard to do so, but still having it all in one is nice. Allen is constantly tweaking the mix and ingredients to make it better as new info becomes available also. Seems to be a good alternative so far. Just make sure your supplements are fresh. Most claim to be good a year, but standard wisdom is replace them every 6 months. You only need to supplement a couple 2-3 times a week at most. 

You can research that for other people suggestions and advice but my personal belief is many over supplement their frogs which can be especially dangerous as the supplements near their expiration date because then you MIGHT not just be shoving to much of good things into them but also be shoving something down their throat that is hard on them/toxic because its gone bad, and if you are doing it every day instead of once or twice a week or a few times a month then its going to be even harder on them. Plus we just don't know enough about their needs IMO to shove that much supplementation into a frog when we do know that they can live months if not years with no supplementation with no seeming ill effect in many if not most cases. 

So my philosophy is supplement regularly, but sparingly and offer a varied diet. Other then culturing fruit flies you can and most highly recommend you do, seed vivs with springtails and dwarf white isopods (tropical rolly polies) or some other type of isopod at least (many vendors/site sponsors sell these as well as members). Then occasionally re-seed every month, few months...basically as needed to keep the in tank population going so the frogs can graze at will between fruit fly feedings. Fungus knats and mites along with other stuff will find its way into vivs also and add to their diet at least in a small way. You can even supplement their feeding with pinhead crickets, tiny wax worms and mealworms if you can find them and your frog will take them (some do, some don't) and phoenix worms which are actually a type of maggot and are high in calcium compared to other feeders. Most people just do all those occasionally though some raise all their frogs on nothing but pinheads or even termites which are another good treat for frogs. 

I really haven't researched dendrocare much so I won't comment except I think a few have claimed it has caused problems, but that may all be bunk...you'll have to look into that yourself. Not really qualified to advise you there except to also say I just don't see the point of it if you've got herpcal/herpavite or the rapashy calcium + icb. You can add superpig from rapashy or other color enhancing supplements to help color up some frogs, mostly ones in the yellow, orange, red colors....maybe green and may very slightly effect blue too but probably not much if at all. Different cell types are responsible for those pigments then the yellow/orange/red so any effect is minimal. Again probably not something you wanna do every day but a few times a month maybe 2-3 times a week at most should be fine. 

Anyways glad to help, feel free to ask more questions. I think you'll find except for the actual cost of animals in some cases this hobby will be much cheaper per viv, then per tank in the reef hobby, also much easier to setup and maintain. I personally think a good viv can be as pretty as any reef tank but I would say it is probably easier to make a visually impressive reef tank then an equally impressive viv as a beginner. But like I said most can't stop with just 1-3 vivs  I think I maxed out at 20, with around 40 darts/mantella and a half dozen geckos and a few newts on top that before an ice storm a couple years ago wiped out most of my collection, and thats still small time compared to many here. 

Which brings me to my last piece of unsolicited advice... If you invest much money in this hobby and are anywhere where you could potentially be without power for days during the summer or winter it may be worth investing in a generator. I thought about it, blew it off because i'd never lost power for more then 48hrs in 20+ years...then 7 days without power ;( 50ish animals dead and out thousands of $ and 100's in plants and man hours changed my mind...its on the to do list once I've invested enough in my collection to warrant the expense.


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## TheOregonKid (Nov 25, 2010)

I agree with Dave that the Aqualifter is a great little pump. It's so nice to not have to worry about concealing the pump housing in your viv. If the pump ever fails then there is no digging into your setup to replace it.


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## TheOregonKid (Nov 25, 2010)

FYI, TOM makes a prefilter for the Aqualifter if you don't feel like Jerry-rigging one.
Aquarium Kits, Aquarium Care Products, Freshwater & Saltwater Aquarium Kits, Power Heads - Tom Aquarium Products


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## LandonL (Jan 5, 2011)

I have a TOM AquaLifter I am going to use for the drip wall application. I use those for my reef tank auto top offs, so I am with you on thinking they would be good for this application.

Things are coming along. I have my Zoomed, and have built the false bottom. I have lots of other supplies too like moss, screening, etc.

I am currently building my waterfall about of a mix of some rock and GS. It has been going a little slower than I would like because I am also doing work on my house at the same time.

Anyway, I will try and get some updates up when I can.

Landon


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