# Mantellas and Dendrobates



## Guest (Dec 8, 2005)

Can someone quickly run over the differences if that's even possible. Is there a reason Mantellas are not more popular?

Thanks,

Mac


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Mantella's:
-need cooler temperatures
-more difficult to breed
-easier to get a hold of for cheap during certain times of year
-seen as the poor man's dart frog
-some would say they are not as gorgeous as darts (although I don't agree)
-Usually wildcaught, if more CB were available, they would be more popular. People have afear of wild caught animals, because of parasites, disease

Dendrobatidae:
-More people captive breeding them
-Easy to come by most popular species
-breeding is pretty easy for most popular species
-can take warmer temperatures
-most think they are more gorgeous than mantella's
-Just availability and temperatures are the most common factor involved.

I encourage you to get and breed mantella's, just becuase they are headed down the same road darts once were. I mean, 10 years ago, Blue jeans and histrionicus costed maybe $25 at a pet store. Isn't that where mantella's are at now?? They are getting more and more strict on exporting large numbers out of madagascar, and soon may not be exporting at all, which will cause the extinction of the species, because the malagasy people are not managing their land well. Mantella's will be extinct before dendrobates, so if you are interested in starting them, get your self some mantella's this coming spring with the incoming shipments. We need as many people captive breeding them as possible, for the hobby and for the species . Take care,

ed parker


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Most of the stuff I've read about mantellas seems to indicate that you need to change the substrate in your tank frequently. Frequently varies from once a week to 3-5 weeks... Is this actually necessary in a planted tank? Can we avoid this by increasing the volume per frog? How many frogs per 20G tank? That is about the only thing holding me back from trying some mantella.

Actually, from what I've read they might make good free ranging specimens in my greenhouse... Doubt I can afford enough critters to try that experiment any time soon.


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## rattler_mt (Apr 15, 2005)

hard to breed? my Mantella laevigata are freaking rabbits. plus are raising there own tads, some of which are getting big. if you like aboreal darts, check these guys out, but i recommend a good sized pond. in a planted tank i dont see whay you would have to change the substrate. mine have been in their tank since August without a change and they are doing great. as to cooler temps, ive been told it depends on species. my laevigata are considered a lowland species though they dont seem to mind the 55-60 degree nights they are currently getting. mantellas are rewarding frogs. and just as nice as darts. i love my tincs but spend most of my time watching my laevi's


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Sorry, i guess I should have specified, MOST mantella's are difficult to breed. M. laevigata is the long lost dendrobate, so they are very similar in lifestyle and breeding habits. . Most other mantella's need cycling, and pristine conditions however to breed. How many other species have you breed rattler???

As for changing the substrate, that is absolutely nuts. If you have a false bottom, live plants, etc etc, don't worry about it. They can be set up exactly like dendrobates. I have even reused substrate when rebuilding species tanks (keep the dirt from one species and only use it for that species though!!!). Also leaf litter is a major requirement i feel for mantella's. A lot of people don't realize that, but it is very important for them. But, keeping them very similar to dendro's, just at cooler temps (other than laevigata and expectata), will prove to be successfull. I encourage you to give them a shot, and m. viridis is one of the most hardy . I wouldn't go more than 4-5 mantella's for a 20 gallon tank either . And laevigata is similar to thumbnails in tank preferations, taller than it is wide and long . Takec are,

ed parker


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## rattler_mt (Apr 15, 2005)

lol ive had calling from my lone male betsileo but i need to find him a girlfriend next year. you are right that most are more difficult to breed but far from impossible. while i have only bred the laevi's. my betsileo and madagascariensis have shown no major problems in terms of husbandry. infact they are about 5 feet away from tincs and azureus which are also doing fine. and i agree with Ed, leaf litter does wonders for their sence of security and my madis are out and about far more often now that ive added some.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

keep in mind, calling doesn't mean that they are willing to breed so to say. I had a group of M. viridis for 2.5 years that had only layed 1 clutch of eggs, but had called continuously for that amount of time, as well as some milotympanum that have been calling for months without any egg production done. it is easy to get the males interested, but the problem is getting the females interested in reproducing as well. Take care,

ed parker


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Both PDFs and Mantellas have aposematic coloration to a degree (warning that they are toxic) and are both small tropical frogs, but I think the similarity ends there. Levis and dendrobatids are really interesting and different from most other anurans due to their level of parental care and both also exhibit the small clutches laid over most of the year that you see in a good number, but not nearly all, tropical species.

After that, you kinda run into the black hole of lack of knowledge in Mantellas. They are much more seasonal, produce much larger clutches (Ed, wasn't one of your recent clutches something like 70+ eggs?), and need water features to breed for the most part. Seasonal breeders are harder than breed like rabbit PDFs - you have to make an effort to cycle them to get the girls ready to lay. The guys, like Ed said, are always ready for a go (and may be calling to establish and advertise territories, not just look for mates). We are still very much learning our way with these frogs. As more CB are produced more consistantly and more is known about them they will probibly rise in popularity.

Right now like Ed said they are still being imported - WCs are still relatively cheap. It can be really hard to get a species established in the hobby when its still being imported - they are still considered disposable by many - why work so hard to breed them when you can just import more? This is not how everyone sees it, but us Froggers are oddballs in the herp world 

The mantella hobby (almost a 'sub-hobby' of the PDF/tropical frog hobby) is really just starting to get on its feet and is at least a decade or two behind what the PDFs are. But that also allows for some work to be done (bloodline wise) early one that didn't get done with PDFs...

Hopefully soon the Mantella Hobbyest group will get their butts in gear and start sharing all the wonderful info floating around their heads and gets a website up showing all the info they have on these guys so far. (hint hint nudge nudge say no more)


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2005)

rattler_mt said:


> l i agree with Ed, leaf litter does wonders for their sence of security and my madis are out and about far more often now that ive added some.


Ok...another question then. What types of leaves are used as leaf litter? Do they break down needing to be cleaned out and replaced? Is it sold somewhere or can you use something non-toxic like hibiscus?


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

hibiscus will break down too fast. Oak or Magnolia is the most widely used types of leaves for leaf litter, as they don't break down as fast. Magnolia is definitely the best though. It takes 6months to a year to break it down. Put up a want add, or keep your eyes on the classifieds. Right now, some people should have a bunch. It is relatively inexpensive as well. And you don't have to remove the decaying leaves over time, just add another layer right on top of it. Take care,

ed parker


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

I agree with most of what has been said. And I strongly encourage everyone to pick up on the mantellas as their outlook is probably more bleak than dendros in terms of habitat destruction. Unfortunately for the frogs, it looks like Mad will not shut down export of a species until it is nearly extirpated from collection AND habitat destruction.  This is the main reason I have decided to specialize in them over PDF.

I currently keep milotympanum, baroni, pulchra and aurantiaca. Only the golds are breeding for me, but I am beginning to cycle them again for the year, so who knows about next year?  

As a beginner with mantellas, I'd steer you toward CB to start because of the heavy parasite loads associated with WC. Once you have your husbandry down for them, then pick up some WC and worm them as soon as possible. I'd recommend having fecals checked by a vet, but I have yet to find a WC mantella without worms. But you should work with a vet to get the worming meds. My vet and I have been using Ivermectin administered transdermally with great success.

In lieu of leaf litter, I set my tanks up with heavy groundcover growth. I use creeping ficus, selaginella, philodendron or pothos and let it grow over most of the substrate. This gives the frogs the security they require without having to remove/replace leaf litter. But it adds pruning to your list of chores, so it's just a personal preference.

The other quick pointer I'd offer is to pick up Marc Staniszewski's mantella books. As far as I know, they are about the only info out there and I've found them informative and helpful.

Good luck!  
Rich


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Why would you remove or replace leaf litter? You're making it more work than it is! You dump some in, let it do its thing, and as it rots and no longer provides a decent hiding place you place fresh litter on top. The decaying litter provides a nice home for springies and other compost critters the mantellas love, also adds some goodies for the plants, and the fresh litter provides the hiding spots.

Honestly, i think both leaf little and undergrowth are great, and best together. Leaf litter does provide an important place for food items to live and what not, and probibly shouldn't be done without, but I don't think there is a frog out there that wouldn't benefit from leaf litter one way or another.


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

KeroKero said:


> Why would you remove or replace leaf litter? You're making it more work than it is! You dump some in, let it do its thing, and as it rots and no longer provides a decent hiding place you place fresh litter on top.


 :? Is this not "replacing" the litter? You are adding more to take the place of what has decomposed. I am not saying leaf litter is not good. I just choose not to use it and my golds definitely don't seem to care that I don't use it. Then again, plants growing in the tank create a small amount of their own leaf litter. :wink: Maybe if I used it I would have more critters in the tanks. But I also tend to overcrowd my frogs, so the food really doesn't stand much of a chance against the foraging frogs.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Rich,

I do the leaf litter, and I grow the pothos, fig, etc all over the leaf litter. The frogs just LOVE a layer of leaf litter they can dart into, it really adds to them being more active. My M. viridis are just as bold as a D. imitator in their new viv with tons of leaf litter. It really isn't all that difficult either. I have never had to replace any leaf litter in any of my vivs yet, and I have been using it for almost a year. If your way works, no worries , just giving you my observations , as I have done what you do, I have done them bare, and I have done my new way, and my new way is definitely more of an enjoyment for the frogs ,

take care,

ed parker


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ugh, shouldn't write posts when I'm tired. When I read "replacing" for some reason I was thinking of someone taking out the old leaf litter after it had broken down, and then putting in new. Way too tired.


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