# Heat Emitters vs. Heating Pads!



## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Since its getting cold and the area where I'm keeping my frogs is an open space, I was wondering if I should use a heat emitter or a heating pad? I have all glass tops and if I were to use an emitter I would have it hanging over the lid. Im not sure a surface heater will keep it warm enough. My viv's are all @ or aroung 65F.


----------



## jrgobble (Jun 23, 2011)

The glass top is a heat insulator, so you are right that the heat may not penetrate. Plus heat rises so it may just bounce off the top. A heating pad will heat the area that is is directly under. One too big will raise your temps a little to hot for the frogs. So a smaller one on one side may be okay. You do need to warm it up a bit though. You will also get higher condensation with a pad since the hotter, wetter air inside the tank will collect on the cooler glass. But if you are like me and connot keep the room at 77. Under tank heat may be the best. I hope this helps. Johnny


----------



## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

The room my frogs are in has been getting 70 which is ok. I think the viv is at 70 too.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

jrgobble said:


> The glass top is a heat insulator, so you are right that the heat may not penetrate. Plus heat rises so it may just bounce off the top.


Ummmm. What?


----------



## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

glass is an insulator but an extremely poor one. also heat does not bounce down. the warm air will rise and heat the top glass. the heat will then pass through the glass and then be radiated out into the room. if you want to keep your tanks warmer than the surroundings but dont need alot of heating one way is to insulate the glass with styrofoam board. even a 1/2 inch of styro will vastly increase the heat holding ability of a viv. just a quick idea.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

get and oil filled electric radiator and put it in the middle of the room... this will take care of the issue


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ceramic heat emmitters are going to overheat, and potentially dry out your viv and heat pads can crack and burst glass vivs. I would avoid both options, and look for a more suitable location for the frogs themselves.

JBear


----------



## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

I've came to that conclusion J. I'm more worried about the summer months.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I use Exo Terra Rainforest heat mats on my pumilio vivaria to up the temps a bit, and I've not had any glass cracked so far. I stick them on to the back of the tank, and it warms the tank up about 5F above what it would be otherwise.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Yup. In general, ceramic heat emitters are a bad idea for pretty much any amphibian tank. Or sealed tank, for that matter, unless you want to cook your frogs.

A heating mat is much safer, and will barely be noticeable on your electricity bill. If you are concerned that the mat might get too hot (never had one crack the glass on any of my snake or lizard enclosures by the way, or heard any stories, not sure where you heard that but I'm interested just in case) you can use it in conjunction with a rheostat Amazon.com: Zoo Med Repti Temperature Rheostat: Everything Else to reduce the heat output. DO NOT put the mat inside the tank. Oh and if you stick the mat to the glass, do not pull it off and reuse it. Pulling it off can damage the elements inside, either causing the mat to get really hot in one spot and a potential fire hazard, or cause it to malfunction in other ways.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I have heard stories of bottom mounted heat mats cracking glass when there is pooled water in the FB. My mom has used heat mats for YEARS now, and has not had issue. I speak from a strictly preventative/precautionary position. 

JBear




jacobi said:


> Yup. In general, ceramic heat emitters are a bad idea for pretty much any amphibian tank. Or sealed tank, for that matter, unless you want to cook your frogs.
> 
> A heating mat is much safer, and will barely be noticeable on your electricity bill. If you are concerned that the mat might get too hot (*never had one crack the glass on any of my snake or lizard enclosures by the way, or heard any stories, not sure where you heard that but I'm interested just in case*) you can use it in conjunction with a rheostat Amazon.com: Zoo Med Repti Temperature Rheostat: Everything Else to reduce the heat output. DO NOT put the mat inside the tank. Oh and if you stick the mat to the glass, do not pull it off and reuse it. Pulling it off can damage the elements inside, either causing the mat to get really hot in one spot and a potential fire hazard, or cause it to malfunction in other ways.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I have heard stories of bottom mounted heat mats cracking glass when there is pooled water in the FB. My mom has used heat mats for YEARS now, and has not had issue. I speak from a strictly preventative/precautionary position.


Thanks. I'm going to look into it.

And after 15 minutes online... I see why I get my advice from books and manufacturers, and not strangers on the net. No offence anyone 

FOLLOW MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS!!! ANd use a rheostat


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jacobi said:


> Thanks. I'm going to look into it.


It may be tank style/designer/manufacturer. Here are some reviews of "Zilla", that discuss the threat of breakage.

PetSmart - Zilla Critter Cages customer reviews - product reviews - read top consumer ratings

JBear


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

zBrinks said:


> I use Exo Terra Rainforest heat mats on my pumilio vivaria to up the temps a bit, and I've not had any glass cracked so far. I stick them on to the back of the tank, and it warms the tank up about 5F above what it would be otherwise.


Max had a snake tank crack once with a taped on heat mat but he put it on the bottom. I have heard that putting it on the back like Zach is suggesting is safer as far as breakage. 



skanderson said:


> glass is an insulator but an extremely poor one. also heat does not bounce down. the warm air will rise and heat the top glass. the heat will then pass through the glass and then be radiated out into the room. if you want to keep your tanks warmer than the surroundings but dont need alot of heating one way is to insulate the glass with styrofoam board. even a 1/2 inch of styro will vastly increase the heat holding ability of a viv. just a quick idea.


Glass is an extremely poor insulator. That is why newer windows are all made Dual Pane. The air space between the panes provides the insulation.


----------



## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

jacobi said:


> Yup. In general, ceramic heat emitters are a bad idea for pretty much any amphibian tank. Or sealed tank, for that matter, unless you want to cook your frogs.



I have to disagree. I use a 60 watt heat emitter on one of my larger vivs and it works great. They will dry out a viv to some degree, but if you purchase an appropriately sized emitter, then it's nothing that your daily maintenance won't take care of.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

MrFusion said:


> I have to disagree. I use a 60 watt heat emitter on one of my larger vivs and it works great. *They will dry out a viv to some degree*, but if you purchase an appropriately sized emitter, then *it's nothing that your daily maintenance won't take care of*.


I think this is a draw back. As you have said, it CAN be done, but it involves additional care/maintenance, making it not a best choice IMO. 

JBear


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Glass can withstand fairly extreme temperatures. I wonder if the heat mats are causing the glass to stress, being that they only heat up part of the glass, causing a temperature difference between two areas on a single pane of glass. I'm curious whether the tanks that cracked are of a similar thickness. The glass that is. Either way, I would recommend controlling the heat output if you choose to use one.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

MrFusion said:


> I have to disagree. I use a 60 watt heat emitter on one of my larger vivs and it works great. They will dry out a viv to some degree, but if you purchase an appropriately sized emitter, then it's nothing that your daily maintenance won't take care of.


60 watts? How large is your viv? How far from the viv do have it?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jacobi said:


> Glass can withstand fairly extreme temperatures. I wonder if the heat mats are causing the glass to stress, being that they only heat up part of the glass, causing a temperature difference between two areas on a single pane of glass. I'm curious whether the tanks that cracked are of a similar thickness. The glass that is. Either way, I would recommend controlling the heat output if you choose to use one.


Putting up a set of black blinds or black curtains can cause glass to break. I replace heat cracked windows in peoples homes fairly regularly.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Putting up a set of black blinds or black curtains can cause glass to break. I replace heat cracked windows in peoples homes fairly regularly.


Really? Why does that happen?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Heat caused glass to expand but there is really nowhere for the glass to expand to. Black curtains or blinds, or even well insulated thermal blinds with no gaps around them, trap the extra heat from the sun getting the glass even hotter. Finally, with nothing ever touching the glass, it simply breaks. It makes a very unique pattern that we simply call Heat Cracking. Instead of a typical pattern, it zig-zags all over the place suddenly changing directions and just leaving a really odd, unique pattern. Once you've seen it, you can identify heat cracking at a glance. Here is a picture. http://chicagowindowexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/stress601.jpg
this can also be caused from putting a film onto the inner pane of a dual pane window. Filming a dual pane window also causes seal failure as the window gets hotter than it is designed to.
3M and other film manufacturers try to deny this, but EVERY window manufacturer and EVERY insulated glass manufacturer will instantly void your warranty if you apply any sort of film.
If you want to get really technical about it, the film, curtain or blind does not actually cause the crack. Actually, it exacerbates a potential problem with extremely slight "defects" in the glass. Guess what? All glass is slightly defective. No cut is perfect. We don't cut glass, we score it and break it, hoping it decides to cooperate and break on the score line. This leaves tiny imperfections along all the edges of every piece of glass. Get it hotter than they usually get, and they break. Now go back to that picture I linked and you can see the imperfection at the top that the heat took advantage of. If laser cutting of glass ever becomes commonplace, who knows? The problem may go away.
Until then, heat will break glass and cause seal failure. It feeds my family.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> If laser cutting of glass ever becomes commonplace, who knows? The problem may go away.


hahahah yeah right, unit cost of having each piece made of tempered to avoid cracking would be more cost effective than laser cutting

but you can dream doug you can dream!


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

also why was the electric oil radiator ignored? $50 and it will be more effective, safer, more effiecent (i dont have the data on that claim , but it feels like the calcs of kwh to effective temp would be lower), and just plain out easier.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

motydesign said:


> hahahah yeah right, unit cost of having each piece made of tempered to avoid cracking would be more cost effective than laser cutting
> 
> but you can dream doug you can dream!


I'm not dreaming...My dinner table likes the glass business just the way it is!!



motydesign said:


> also why was the electric oil radiator ignored? $50 and it will be more effective, safer, more effiecent (i dont have the data on that claim , but it feels like the calcs of kwh to effective temp would be lower), and just plain out easier.


Not ignored by me, I posted a likes to it. That is exactly how Frogboy and I heat our frogroom. We add a Ranco Electronic Temperature Control unit to keep the temp exactly where we want it.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Yes. It makes sense to raise the ambient temperature of the room, rather than each viv/tank. And no concerns about the glass cracking, frogs cooking etc


----------



## BurnsinTX (Nov 18, 2011)

I think the biggest cause of crack glass is adding cold water to a tank with a heater attached. If the glass is hot and you pour cold water on it, it causes the granular structure to shrink faster than the surrounding glass, causing stress and potentially a crack. Glass can also crack in due to heat because it expands but is confined by the frame. In most terrariums this shouldn't be a problem because the silicone will allow it to expand a little, the frame isn't that snug around the glass. 
Source: engineering school was a few years back, so theories could have changed I guess ha.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> I'm not dreaming...My dinner table likes the glass business just the way it is!!
> 
> 
> 
> Not ignored by me, I posted a likes to it. That is exactly how Frogboy and I heat our frogroom. We add a Ranco Electronic Temperature Control unit to keep the temp exactly where we want it.


i was saying you could dream of having a laser glass cutter hahaha.

ooooo i like the temp control!!! i just use a Honeywell digital oil heater its digital and $70 
Honeywell Store - Honeywell HZ-709 Oil-Filled Radiator, Electronic Controls, Chrome Finish


----------



## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

jbherpin said:


> I think this is a draw back. As you have said, it CAN be done, but it involves additional care/maintenance, making it not a best choice IMO.
> 
> JBear


 It is a draw back to some degree, but it's really very little extra work. I just turned up the fogger and mist the viv if and when it is needed. This is the only viv I keep in my home so heating the entire livingroom for one viv is less of a convenience for me. Plus the added expense of maintaining a temp of 80+ degrees in my living room is something I'd like to avoid. 



jacobi said:


> 60 watts? How large is your viv? How far from the viv do have it?


 18x18x24. I have it placed directly on top of the viv and it maintains an temp of 80 -/+ degrees mid level in the viv. I couldn't place the heater on top of the lexan top so I cut a hole that is slightly larger than the fixture so it could sit directly on the screen top without melting the lexan top.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

IMO 80F is a peak, and not considered the best as a stable temp. I would pull the heat emmitter away, and aim for a temp of 72-75F.

JBear



MrFusion said:


> It is a draw back to some degree, but it's really very little extra work. I just turned up the fogger and mist the viv if and when it is needed. This is the only viv I keep in my home so heating the entire livingroom for one viv is less of a convenience for me. Plus the added expense of maintaining a temp of 80+ degrees in my living room is something I'd like to avoid.
> 
> 
> 
> 18x18x24. I have it placed directly on top of the viv and it maintains an temp of 80 -/+ degrees mid level in the viv. I couldn't place the heater on top of the lexan top so I cut a hole that is slightly larger than the fixture so it could sit directly on the screen top without melting the lexan top.


----------



## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

jbherpin said:


> IMO 80F is a peak, and not considered the best as a stable temp. I would pull the heat emmitter away, and aim for a temp of 72-75F.
> 
> JBear


 It's 80 degrees mid tank so the floor of the viv is well into the 70's. I have Benedicta in this particular viv and they seem to be favoring the higher temps up higher in the viv so far.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

MrFusion said:


> It's 80 degrees mid tank so the floor of the viv is well into the 70's. I have Benedicta in this particular viv and they seem to be favoring the higher temps up higher in the viv so far.


Interesting note, Me as well as Benedicta owners appreciate the insight.

Thanks!

JBear


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I might add, that seasonally this is a standard in some parts of dart frog natural range, but it should not be kept year 'round. That is why there is a definative breeding season(s) within natural ranges.

JBear


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

On a side note: Ed must be on [paid] vacation as I suspect he would have valid input on this. LOL!

JBear


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> IMO 80F is a peak, and not considered the best as a stable temp. I would pull the heat emmitter away, and aim for a temp of 72-75F.
> 
> JBear


While this is commonly tossed around in the dendrobatid community, this can be very different than the recorded temperatures in the native habitat...... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> On a side note: Ed must be on [paid] vacation as I suspect he would have valid input on this. LOL!
> 
> JBear


I tend to try to leave things to the pros... Doug does it professionally so I bow my head to his knowledge on this topic since it involves the impact on the glass of the cage.

If the tank is on a stand, why not simply close off the bottom of the stand and passively heat that space? Unless there is something insulating the bottom of the tank (such as a sheet of styrofoam), then that would evenly heat the bottom of the tank without causing risk to the glass of the tank. There are many ways to heat the bottom safely (since you don't want to start any fires). 

Ed


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> While this is commonly tossed around in the dendrobatid community, this can be very different than the recorded temperatures in the native habitat......
> 
> Ed


If you do a search of my posts, you will see I have taken a position about temps and natural ranges/gradients.

JBear


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

To clarify, temps reaching 80-82 are sustained naturally, but they are not the best in an inescapable habitat like a glass box. If the viv is big enough, sure one end could be heated to a stable 80F, but there would be considerable planning to make that scheme with a low end side, a temp that is overall comfortable and doesn't make the frogs over-active or heat stressed. What are your thoughts?

JBear


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

BurnsinTX said:


> I think the biggest cause of crack glass is adding cold water to a tank with a heater attached. If the glass is hot and you pour cold water on it, it causes the granular structure to shrink faster than the surrounding glass, causing stress and potentially a crack. Glass can also crack in due to heat because it expands but is confined by the frame. In most terrariums this shouldn't be a problem because the silicone will allow it to expand a little, the frame isn't that snug around the glass.
> Source: engineering school was a few years back, so theories could have changed I guess ha.


Cold water on hot glass will certainly increase chances of it breaking. Heat cracking can also happen when it is not in a frame, though. I've seen heat cracks happen to tinted glass that I took out the day before, even while sitting on my glass rack with a few clear panes in front of it.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> To clarify, temps reaching 80-82 are sustained naturally, but they are not the best in an inescapable habitat like a glass box. If the viv is big enough, sure one end could be heated to a stable 80F, but there would be considerable planning to make that scheme with a low end side, a temp that is overall comfortable and doesn't make the frogs over-active or heat stressed. What are your thoughts?
> 
> JBear


with the exception of some of the montane species (and Phyllobates for some odd reason) many of the dendrobatids will tolerate temperates above 80-82 F quite well. I've temperature gunned dendrobatids acting normally and feeding with a surface temperature of close to 90F. Is this ideal, no, since if that was the temperature at the bottom of the cage, the frog would have no place to hide but as noted with some exceptions they can be quite surprising if we monitor thier temperatures but if the bottom was cooler the frog could move to escape the heat if it chose. 

One of the problems with people sealing thier tanks tightly and maximizing the humidity of the tank 24/7 we are actually preventing the frogs from cooling themselves through evaporative cooling. See the following abstract here JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (the link is valid even though it says there is an error). If the humidity is low enough the frogs can actively uptake water from the substrate and allow it to evaporate cooling the frogs. Many in the hobby remove that option by how tight they seal the tanks which takes that option away from the frogs. 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> with the exception of some of the montane species (and Phyllobates for some odd reason) many of the dendrobatids will tolerate temperates above 80-82 F quite well. I've temperature gunned dendrobatids acting normally and feeding with a surface temperature of close to 90F. Is this ideal, no, since if that was the temperature at the bottom of the cage, the frog would have no place to hide but as noted with some exceptions they can be quite surprising if we monitor thier temperatures but if the bottom was cooler the frog could move to escape the heat if it chose.
> 
> *One of the problems with people sealing thier tanks tightly and maximizing the humidity of the tank 24/7 we are actually preventing the frogs from cooling themselves through evaporative cooling*. See the following abstract here JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (the link is valid even though it says there is an error). If the humidity is low enough the frogs can actively uptake water from the substrate and allow it to evaporate cooling the frogs. Many in the hobby remove that option by how tight they seal the tanks which takes that option away from the frogs.
> 
> ...


Very interesting note, Thank You.

JBear


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Thank you ed,
saving that link for the next viv venting discussion that arises were people say venting is not needed in a viv.


----------



## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

jbherpin said:


> Interesting note, Me as well as Benedicta owners appreciate the insight.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> JBear


 I wouldn't recommend anyone changing their setup based on what I'm doing if they're already keeping their Benedicta successfully. I'm just one guy with one group of frogs so it's not exactly scientific. Based on my own research these frogs see an average temp variance between the low 70's and low 90's in the wild throughout a 24 hour period. For the most part this averages year round as well. However, I agree with Ed 100% regarding temps and ventilation and should point out that my vivs are all extremely well ventilated with 8 fogging cycles daily and small pools of water for soaking.


----------



## herpin1579 (Mar 12, 2011)

Heat tape with a thermostat


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

herpin1579 said:


> Heat tape with a *thermostat*


Bingo! You beat me to it. 

I strongely recommend using a thermostat with any and all heating sources. A rheostat is not a thermostat.

I'd also strongely advise using an in the tank thermometer/temp gauge.

Further, a tank's temp can change significantly anytime there's a change in the local heating or heat loss. That includes adding insulation.


----------



## Sabotage (Jun 1, 2010)

What about the Exo-Terra Heater Cables? Are they any different/better than pads? I was thinking they could be wrapped near the top of the tank, so there could be somewhat regulated temperature zones.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

pl259 said:


> Bingo! You beat me to it.
> 
> I strongely recommend using a thermostat with any and all heating sources. A rheostat is not a thermostat.
> 
> ...


I've had a problem with thermostats and heat tape, due to the probe only measuring a specific area. Temps tended to fluctuate strangely for me. I keep a separate thermostat on a shutoff switch, which measures the ambient temps in the general area of the heat pad/tape. Works better for me than just a rheostat or a thermostat.


----------

