# Vitamin rotation



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I really like using Repashy Calcium Plus. However, I still use old, pink Rep Cal w/ D3 once a week or every two weeks.

From reading past posts, it seems that RCP can be used by itself-- but is that recommended? I feed my frogs 3-5 times a week, depending on the season. The other Doug said Allen Repashy states that it can be used alone. I'm trying to decide if I should continue using pink Rep cal or discontinue its use.

I would like to start using Vitamin A Plus along with RCP. Any thoughts?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey Doug, I found the word-for-word communication from Allen. I know, you weren't questioning that, just thought I'd throw it up here for you. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/540651-post8.html


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

There is no need for additional calcium IMO. After doing some tests and some calculations, I have come to the conclusion it is still possible to over supplement calcium if you dust heavily.
Supplements can adhere to FF at 4% of their live body weight. Repashy Calcium plus contains 20% calcium. FF analysis shows they are approx 1% phosphorus, 0.14% calcium on dry matter basis.
The recommended ratio of Ca/P is 1.5/1 up to 2/1 for amphibians.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Do you have the rest of the numbers to complete that calculation? Such as ff weight.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

mydumname said:


> Do you have the rest of the numbers to complete that calculation? Such as ff weight.


Live Fruit Flies are approx 67% water.
Fruit Fly weight in this instance is not needed.

I have calculated wingless melanos at 0.85 milligrams, Hydei nearly 2.0 mgs


One thing I found interesting when trying to calculate how quickly they can clean themselves of the dust, was their weight loss from metabolism and respiration.


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## wesly2007 (Jul 6, 2007)

I have a similar question.

I have vitamin A plus, and calcium plus both by Repashy. I havnt started using the vitamin a but I do suppliment with calcium daily. How often should I supliment with the vitamin A?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

wesly2007 said:


> I have a similar question.
> 
> I have vitamin A plus, and calcium plus both by Repashy. I havnt started using the vitamin a but I do suppliment with calcium daily. How often should I supliment with the vitamin A?


If you suspect a deficiency, like Short Tongue Syndrome, or repeated egg failure, then not more than once a week. Once the deficiency has resolved, I use it about once a month.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> If you suspect a deficiency, like Short Tongue Syndrome, or repeated egg failure, then not more than once a week. Once the deficiency has resolved, I use it about once a month.


...... Or as a more simple answer... How about "What the directions indicate for it's usage"? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> ...... Or as a more simple answer... How about "What the directions indicate for it's usage"?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Shoot. I'm busted for cheating. Ed caught me reading the directions!


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Here's a quick question for everyone using the Vitamin A plus...

For normal usage (every few weeks or so), how many of you are feeding the same amount of flies per frog, as you would with the daily (or so) calcium dusted flies?

I personally feed a little less flies per frog with the Vitamin A dusted flies.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jdooley195 said:


> Here's a quick question for everyone using the Vitamin A plus...
> 
> For normal usage (every few weeks or so), how many of you are feeding the same amount of flies per frog, as you would with the daily (or so) calcium dusted flies?
> 
> I personally feed a little less flies per frog with the Vitamin A dusted flies.


Allen does not state to feed less. I feed the same amount as usual on my monthly dose of A.


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## wesly2007 (Jul 6, 2007)

Ed said:


> ...... Or as a more simple answer... How about "What the directions indicate for it's usage"?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Ed
I appreciate a response but a generic "read the directions" is not what I was looking for. I have read the directions. I was realy looking for a response on how others on the board have utilized the suppliment.

Pumilo
Thank you for your response.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wesly2007 said:


> Ed
> I appreciate a response but a generic "read the directions" is not what I was looking for. I have read the directions. I was realy looking for a response on how others on the board have utilized the suppliment.
> .


The problem with going with the herd mentality on this product is that many people are not considering the metabolic needs if the frogs for this product... and too many people on the various forums are commenting about risk on using it without understanding it (mostly based off of bad information that has been floating around since the early 1990s)... There are many signs of vitamin A deficiency that are only detected on necropsy... people are evaluating thier frogs on external symptoms for example number of tongue flicks to capture prey which can present as normal but if the frog was necropsied, squamous metaplasia may be evident on histopathology... 
And this is before we even get into the discussion of vitamin A deficiency on the immune system of the frog.... you can have chronic issues with no overt symptoms.... 
This is why a person should read the directions and follow them before they do anything else...particularly when on a forum it is very easy to get a majority opinion based on based information, rumor, and often just plain ignorance.... 
An example of poor commentary regarding vitamin A in the last couple of days 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...0-tads-not-morphing-out-water.html#post806023

With the response that the OP was afraid to use it because it can be overdosed..the answer of which is yes... if you use it contrary to what it says on the lable... 

Doug gave you some conservative recommendations that would alleviate overt symptoms..and possibly based on anecdotal results work on less obvious symptoms but that part hasn't been verified by documented necropsies as of yet... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

When I dust with the vitamin A plus I still feed the regular amount of flies. I'd also like to say that prior to using the Vitamin A Plus I experienced SLS with my ventrimaculatus. Once I started my current regiment that issue went away. 

Ed reference my post of tads not morphing out..... This is something new I have encountered and posted to get some opinions. The only thing I can think might cause a issue is the age of the supplements which I just changed recently.

Just to put this info out there I have only been keeping PDF for a little over 2 years. I consider myself a novice and continue to learn a lot with reading the forums and Q & A.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MikeM670 said:


> .
> Ed reference my post of tads not morphing out..... This is something new I have encountered and posted to get some opinions. The only thing I can think might cause a issue is the age of the supplements which I just changed recently.


Other than your concern, my commentary was more aimed at the comment that slow metamorphosis was due too vitamin A deficiency as opposed to a decrease in temperature.... Vitamin A is required for proper metamorphosis but instead of delaying time of metamorphosis, you get developmental aberrations (like spindly leg)..... There is a lot of bad information on retinoids continually being passed around including how dangerous it actually is... For example, people are always worried about overdosing vitamin A, yet they have no issues with potentially overdosing vitamin D3 or E... Vitamin D3 can kill an animal just as fast if not faster than vitamin A.... a big enough dose can severely damage the liver yet you rarely see any recommendations to keep an eye on the potential toxicity of D3 even though the flies can retain enough supplement to cause toxicity... Vitamin E overdoses can cause excessive bleeding (potentially causing a death to be labled as "red leg" due to pooling of blood in the ventral areas of the body... or extreme weakness 

Some comments 

Ed


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## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

Ed said:


> Other than your concern, my commentary was more aimed at the comment that slow metamorphosis was due too vitamin A deficiency as opposed to a decrease in temperature.... Vitamin A is required for proper metamorphosis but instead of delaying time of metamorphosis, you get developmental aberrations (like spindly leg)..... There is a lot of bad information on retinoids continually being passed around including how dangerous it actually is... For example, people are always worried about overdosing vitamin A, yet they have no issues with potentially overdosing vitamin D3 or E... Vitamin D3 can kill an animal just as fast if not faster than vitamin A.... a big enough dose can severely damage the liver yet you rarely see any recommendations to keep an eye on the potential toxicity of D3 even though the flies can retain enough supplement to cause toxicity... Vitamin E overdoses can cause excessive bleeding (potentially causing a death to be labled as "red leg" due to pooling of blood in the ventral areas of the body... or extreme weakness
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Having mulled over the comments posted here I am leaning towards what you said about the temperature slowing down the metamorphosis. The temperature difference is probably about 4 to 5 degrees from summer. I'll look at making a morphing container to handle all the tads.

Again thanks for the input!


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## 20200 (Sep 3, 2012)

Ed said:


> There is a lot of bad information on retinoids continually being passed around including how dangerous it actually is... For example, people are always worried about overdosing vitamin A, yet they have no issues with potentially overdosing vitamin D3 or E... Vitamin D3 can kill an animal just as fast if not faster than vitamin A.... a big enough dose can severely damage the liver yet you rarely see any recommendations to keep an eye on the potential toxicity of D3 even though the flies can retain enough supplement to cause toxicity... Vitamin E overdoses can cause excessive bleeding (potentially causing a death to be labled as "red leg" due to pooling of blood in the ventral areas of the body... or extreme weakness
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


As a novice (~3 months), this is kind of scaring me. Any recommendations on how often to use calcium and multi-vitamins to avoid OD-ing like that? I know you mentioned using vitamin A just once a month, and I aslo know I've probably been OD-ing my frogs on calcium.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

20200 said:


> As a novice (~3 months), this is kind of scaring me. Any recommendations on how often to use calcium and multi-vitamins to avoid OD-ing like that? I know you mentioned using vitamin A just once a month, and I aslo know I've probably been OD-ing my frogs on calcium.


1) follow the directions on the lable
2) don't overfeed 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

To the other Doug-- thanks for posting that thread.

Now, referring back to my original post and question.... 

Back in the day, I remember conversations on here that stated it was best to not mix Herptivite and Rep-Cal together because of competition in the digestive tract.

So, I suppose I'm a little confused why all of a sudden we are recommending a stand alone supplement. I see why Allen Repashy offers choices of using two separate supplements in case there are people who don't believe in stand alone supplements.

However, I would prefer to use an all in one since it would reduce how much I throw away, save money, and create less guess work for how much I should be giving my frogs. That has been a concern of mine for a while-- fear of overdosing on D3 since I no longer use the Herptivite / Rep-Cal mix. I have been uncomfortable using Repashy Calcium Plus and Rep-Cal together so I limit how much Rep-Cal I give.

Any other thoughts? How long have some of you been using only Calcium Plus with the exception of using Vitamin A Plus?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Back in the day, I remember conversations on here that stated it was best to not mix Herptivite and Rep-Cal together because of competition in the digestive tract.


1) the directions on the lable said not to mix the two together and leave them mixed (a not uncommon practice in the day) as the calcium granules damaged the beta carotene particles leading to increased breakdown
Herptivite does not contain any preformed vitamin A so the only potential competition is between D3 and E. 

2) failure to follow the directions and mix them to the correct ratios. In that case you could get competition between D3 and E. 

3) the risk of overdosing the animals due to overfeeding. 

4) Demonstrated wide ranging errors in the formulation of various supplements and what is suppsed to be on the lable ranging from 0% of a supposed nutrient and more than 100% of what it said on the lable... 



Rain_Frog said:


> So, I suppose I'm a little confused why all of a sudden we are recommending a stand alone supplement. I see why Allen Repashy offers choices of using two separate supplements in case there are people who don't believe in stand alone supplements.


Your ignoring the fact that unlike many of the prior supplements, the ratios are actually balanced.... it to my knowledge is the only supplement on the market that contains the major carotenoids found in amphibians, and the hands on control should be taken as a good indication of stability both within and between batches...(the only other one that showed that level of hands on control was the Walkabout Farms products). 

And he actually does offer multiple combinations... there is the Low-Cal Med-Cal and High Cal products that are mixed with Supervite allowing for people to tailor what they want to do (which is actually more control than you can get with Rep-Cal/Herptivite....).. So I'm not sure why you think that he doesn't.... (and this is before we get into the possible combinations with the standalone vitamin A..). 



Rain_Frog said:


> However, I would prefer to use an all in one since it would reduce how much I throw away, save money, and create less guess work for how much I should be giving my frogs. That has been a concern of mine for a while-- fear of overdosing on D3 since I no longer use the Herptivite / Rep-Cal mix. I have been uncomfortable using Repashy Calcium Plus and Rep-Cal together so I limit how much Rep-Cal I give.


Actually Doug, if your afraid of overdosing on vitamin D3, then using a seperate calcium D3 product actually increases the chance if you overfeed your frogs.. There is no dilution of the D3, nor is there competition between the other fat soluble vitamins to reduce uptake and the excess is stored in certain tissues where if over time it ends up in excess it causes all kinds of harm... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Rain_Frog said:


> To the other Doug-- thanks for posting that thread.
> 
> Now, referring back to my original post and question....
> 
> ...


Ed covered that better than I ever could, so this simply addresses your last question.
I got back into the hobby on November of 2012. Since getting back in, I started using only Repashy Calcium Plus (formerly called Calcium Plus ICB). I soon began using some SuperPig. Eventually, I picked up two sub-adult Tor Linbo Tarapoto that had obviously been raised by someone else. They soon began leaving bad eggs. I began reading up on all Ed's info on Vitamin A. At that time, Repashy Vitamin A did not exist, so I began supplementing human grade vitamin A about once a week. I began getting good eggs after only about 1.5 or 2 months of dusting with vitamin A. I then dropped to once per month. It was a bit of a hassle to work with as you had to grind it with a mortar and pestle. Even after grinding, it did not stick well, as the particle size was still rather large. When a finely powdered form became available, I switched to it.
This seems to working pretty well for me. I have happy, breeding frogs, good eggs, successful tads, and have not seen a single case of SLS from my collection (with the exception of 2 Sens imitator tads I adopted from somebody else).
Now obviously, other people have had good success with other brands, so I am not saying this is the only way to go, or the best way to go. Simply that it has been working for me.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I was involved in conversations about the importance of retinol in the past, but I haven't been active on here for the last year. I missed the recent information regarding the newer types of Repashy supplements and their uses. I was still using Rep-Cal every now and then, and since it is about time for me to purchase new supplements, I wanted to look up information if anything has changed. Apparently, it has.

My mantellas were producing spindly leg until I used a supplement containing retinol.



> Your ignoring the fact that unlike many of the prior supplements, the ratios are actually balanced.... it to my knowledge is the only supplement on the market that contains the major carotenoids found in amphibians, and the hands on control should be taken as a good indication of stability both within and between batches...(the only other one that showed that level of hands on control was the Walkabout Farms products).


I'm aware that they are balanced-- but it must have not clicked with me, and like you said, older supplements were not balanced and being a creature of habit, I continued to alternate supplements since I was unaware that it was okay to use RCP as a stand alone. 

However, I think part of the confusion may have been from some arguments I may have read in favor of using multiple supplements besides Repashy Calcium Plus.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

So, Doug, you use only Repashy Calcium plus and Superpig (occasionally Vit A). I understand? But how often? Thanks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

rigel10 said:


> So, Doug, you use only Repashy Calcium plus and Superpig (occasionally Vit A). I understand? But how often? Thanks


Which Doug? It's a good thing Zookeeper Doug hasn't stepped into this thread or we'd really get confused!
I've avoided posting my feeding and regimen in that other vitamin thread because it was stated no chit-chat, no explanations, just leave your personal schedule and move on. If I can't explain myself, it doesn't mean much (that's my opinion anyway). 
I'll give it to you here as we are allowed to discus why.
I feed about three times a week. I dust with Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding, unless I am dusting with something else. 
The only other times I am dusting with something else, is this: 
Once a month I dust with Repashy Superpig, and once a month I dust with Repashy Vitamin A Plus.
This is NOT feedback. This is not the only possible way to dust. This is not the only brand that has been used by froggers successfully. This is simply my method of choice and it works for me.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I agree with you, Pumilo: it's better to explain and discuss. It's what should be do in a forum! I switched to Repashy about two weeks ago, throwing away the old supplements, hence my curiosity. Thank you very much

(P.S: Sorry for my bad English. I did not use English for many years, so I apologize for errors and inaccuracies).


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