# Pesticides?



## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

I'm looking for a basically terrarium safe pesticide. 

Before anyone hits the reply key saying there is no such thing, read through first.........

Unless you are culturing plants inside a bubble, it's pretty much unavoidable that pesticides are going to come into play if you want healthy good looking plants. 

What I am looking for is a pesticide that isn't going to turn the plants into toxic waste dumps that need to be set aside for 8 weeks before they can be used in a terrarium.

I'm looking for something that is not a systemic pesticide, and will wash out easily with water and a gentle soap/bleach bath.

Anyone know a specific pesticide that would fit these requirements?


thanks.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

What are you trying to kill ?


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> What are you trying to kill ?




Nothing specific, was looking for recommendations for a general use pesticide. gnats, small bugs etc.

For slugs and snails and such we are using Diatomaceous Earth.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

1) If you are talking about prophylactically treating plants prior to introduction, I don't know why you deem that necessary. Rinsing and/or quarantine work fine.

Now, I once made the mistake of growing something on the porch and putting it in my main terrarium. May have introduced scale (could have been from another source). Luckily, seemed to only want the old-world aroids. Had to remove the plants. Never will make this mistake again. Ever. 

If you have a valuable plant with an infestation, I would remove the plant before treating it. Yes, it may shock. Thems the horticultural breaks... 

But we cannot give advice without knowing the problem.

Aphids? Spray with warm, soapy water.
Scale? Neem oil or dots of alcohol.
Powdery mildew? Bicarb and water (with a couple of drops of soap).

Rinse thoroughly and quarantine before reintroduction. To be safe, replace the substrate. 


2) But, if you're talking about treating plants while in an establised tank--the answer is so NO I am flabbergasted. As in  (We need an Edward Munch avatar...)

--In a tank with amphibians?!? The animals with skin as permeable as the roofs of our mouths? 
--In an enclosed tank w/o drainage?

Do not use Neem, do not use Ivory soap, do not, just do not.

If you must, remove the pets and try the dry ice trick.


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Ok, first off, I'm not referring to using in a tank with frogs. I'm almost shocked at the assumption made suggesting it. Please take note I did say I wanted something that wouldn't require 8 weeks of sitting before the plants could be used in a terrarium. I really thought that clearly implied "pre-terrarium usage"

Second, there isn't a specific "problem" to treat, so I can't be specific unless I want to research all the potential insects native to southern California.

Third, it's a prophylactic move. And not one being made before putting it in a tank.

I'm growing terrarium plants in fairly large volumes, and I'm looking to protect the plants while they are being cultured. I'd really rather not try to sell "Moon Valley" Pilea with holes eaten in them. As I have officially overrun my house with several thousands of starter plants, the need to move outdoors to a greenhouse or growing station type of set up has pretty much become mandatory. 

Over the past two weeks, I've added over 3,000 Tillandsia and last week several hundred bromeliads to the circus here as well.

It's clear that some form of prevention is going to be absolutely necessary.

While I have experience and success raising plants, raising frogs, raising fish, and raising reptiles, I do not have experience with pesticides. I've seen containers that list a multitude of pests that it treats, so I presume that thinking there are general purpose pesticides I might be able to use do exist.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Why have you ruled out systemmics?


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## jon (Mar 12, 2008)

The good thing about pesticides in greenhouses is that once you spray, you don't have to spray again for quite some time. I run a Merit, Enstar II, and metaldehyde regimine only a couple of times a year. They're sufficiently volatile that they'll degrade in sunlight after a week or two. Systemics are good because they get the bugs that matter; those that are eating your plants. They aren't as persistant as most people commonly assume. Neem oil and insecticidal soaps are generally worthless. They just make your plants smell funny.

EDIT - Oh... and if you keep your clean plants in the GH, you can quarantine new arrivals and treat them with pesticides. Then you're only introducing clean plants to the GH, and you won't have to treat the whole collection as often.


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Frogtofall said:


> Why have you ruled out systemmics?




Largely due to the fact I've seen people argue both sides of the subject. Systemic being thrown out there as a big warning flag, and not safe to use, and other people disputing it. This is based on a few threads here that I looked in on in the recent past. 

Systemic pesticides were being made somewhat of a boogeyman, along with recommendations of plants needing to sit up to 6 months before they could be safely used. 

Someone who sounded quite knowledgeable on the subject disputed this. I just can't recall who it was or I would have PM'd them directly. 

I'm trying to grow terrarium friendly plants here, not your Home Depot variety of poor quality junk plants. So I'm looking for the most favorable solution to use on plants that are intended to exist with frogs.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

jon said:


> *The good thing about pesticides in greenhouses is that once you spray, you don't have to spray again for quite some time...*


You obviously don't grow in Florida... 




Imperial_Aquatics said:


> Largely due to the fact I've seen people argue both sides of the subject. Systemic being thrown out there as a big warning flag, and not safe to use, and other people disputing it. This is based on a few threads here that I looked in on in the recent past.
> 
> Systemic pesticides were being made somewhat of a boogeyman, along with recommendations of plants needing to sit up to 6 months before they could be safely used.
> 
> ...


Not that I'm touting myself as "quite knowledgeable" on anything, I think this may have been me b/c we've discussed this here before and I gave an argument for using them.

I'll tell you right now that I probably have the most practical advice to give you in regards to Imidacloprid (a chemical used in Bayer Tree and Shrub systemmic). Not only b/c I use it but b/c I only use my own plants in all the terrariums I setup.

Being that systemmics reside in the vascular system of a plant, there is no inherent danger to the frogs. It would be similar to the fact that Philodendrons and the like are quite poisonous but not to the touch, only when consumed. Your frogs aren't gonna eat the plants.

_"But what if my frog eats a bug that has fed on one of these plants?"_

While this is a possibility, its also possible that you're gonna win the lottery tomorrow. Its also possible you may get struck by lighting. Its also possible you may die in a plane crash. I'm sure you know where I'm going...

Any bug that feeds on a plant with a systemmic in it isn't going to last long enough to get consumed. These chemicals work FAST especially on really small insects. Furthermore, the concentrations needed to pose harm to a frog would be quite high and the likelihood they would consume enough insects that have been feeding on a treated plant are slim.

As far as darts go, I see no real issues. If you plan to sell plants to someone keeping animals that may nibble or feed on the plants, then maybe there could be an issue.

If you are going to be growing outside and you really don't want to use systemmics, you should try using good 'ol soap and water. I use 2 tbl spoons per 1 gal of water. Then I spray. Whats nice about soap is that not only does it suffocate the bugs but it also does wonders for many species of fungal spore that attack popular tropical plants especially those that we keep. If you're growing outside then the sunlight will help break it down so that you don't have problems irritating any frogs or other amphibians.

Our Home Depots and Lowe's actually have pretty nice plants. Probably a perk of living in Florida. All the growers that these companies use are utilizing a HUGE array of chemicals. Its good to see you are trying to cut down on this and do it as safe as possible. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE NEED TO BUY FROM FORUM SPONSORS AND SUPPORTERS!!

Edit: I wanted to add that I do have "canaries" in the greenhouse.  I have a decent sized population of Green Tree Frogs and Pine Woods Tree Frogs living in there as well as Green Anoles. I've stopped using the things that leave dead bodies the next day like some of the stronger external foliar insecticides that are available (like Seven).


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

I suspect it was indeed likely you that I saw comment as your reply here is almost word for word the same as the one I saw awhile back.

I also recall comments that were made suggesting concern that the systemic pesticides might leech back into the soil, which caused some hesitation on my part. 

Sounds like I should research the systemics in more detail then. This is a pretty big project, and I just want to be certain that I have the facts right, and no mistakes. 


thanks for the input.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Well, they are in the soil to start b/c you apply it to the soil for the roots to take up. There are some trans-laminar systemmics but I would not use those. If you're treating the plants first, THEN putting them in a viv (after washing the roots) you would be fine. Most the plants we would be using are going to take up the chemical rather quickly (within a day or 2) especially during the growing seasons.


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Frogtofall said:


> Well, they are in the soil to start b/c you apply it to the soil for the roots to take up. There are some trans-laminar systemmics but I would not use those. If you're treating the plants first, THEN putting them in a viv (after washing the roots) you would be fine. Most the plants we would be using are going to take up the chemical rather quickly (within a day or 2) especially during the growing seasons.



I'll do a bit of experimenting then.

To further make the plants I'm growing frog safe... I'm growing them without any kind of perlite or soil additives, using non chemical, Coco plugs to start them in. These plugs are very spongy feeling and don't crumble when you squeeze them, I'm not sure exactly how they will "fall apart" as the roots grow into them. Or if they will just disintegrate when washed. This last one would be good to know as I'd like to be absolutely certain that any pesticide is gone before a plant is used.

thanks.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

To clarify, it was not my attention to dis anyone--but your post did not make clear this was for commercial application, rather than personal use. (Sometimes, we get these clowns who write "How do I kill the millipedes/woodlice/and these little things that look like springtails?!? And the begonia and gesneriad afficianados are even worse...)



Frogtofall said:


> You obviously don't grow in Florida...
> Furthermore, the concentrations needed to pose harm to a frog would be quite high and the likelihood they would consume enough insects that have been feeding on a treated plant are slim.
> 
> As far as darts go, I see no real issues. If you plan to sell plants to someone keeping animals that may nibble or feed on the plants, then maybe there could be an issue.
> ...


Antone: 

1) Could you please tell us some of those chemicals that "leave dead bodies," so we can avoid them? In a commercial greenhouse, does soap and water prevent most problems? 

I know that some growers use soap and water as a genral application; beer and/or Escar-Go for snails and slugs. 

2) As for the customers, shouldn't we keep in mind that a) not every herpetoculturist keeps only dart frogs; (b) Concentrations can be multiplied over time. Back in the day, no one thought DDT was going to be a problem...

(For what it's worth, I try to avoid omnivores; I have seen bearded dragons grow big and strong on Home Depot plants


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Groundhog said:


> To clarify, it was not my attention to dis anyone--but your post did not make clear this was for commercial application, rather than personal use. (Sometimes, we get these clowns who write "How do I kill the millipedes/woodlice/and these little things that look like springtails?!? And the begonia and gesneriad afficianados are even worse...)



Not a problem. Sometimes I tend not to spill every aspect of what I am doing. I thought I had supplied enough info for what I was asking about. Next time I'll detail things better.




> I know that some growers use soap and water as a genral application; beer and/or Escar-Go for snails and slugs.



Diatomaceous Earth is great for slugs and snails. They won't cross it. It is like crawling over razor blades to them. As it is non toxic and rarely needs replacing, it's a great way to handle this particular pest.




> 2) As for the customers, shouldn't we keep in mind that a) not every herpetoculturist keeps only dart frogs; (b) Concentrations can be multiplied over time. Back in the day, no one thought DDT was going to be a problem...



Good point there. While I did have Darts in mind, I have no way of telling if a customer is going to put these plants in a tank with something that might chew on them. 

Is this a potential problem if I use a systemic pesticide?


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