# Frog in a Jar



## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Just working on my jar to reflect my website. I thought it was glass, but it appears to be a 20" x 10" acrylic cylinder. I have new ideas for internal lighting, but right now I just want to see how comfortable a thumbnail would be inside it. So far my imi varadero is happy and still exploring. I'm debating how two would feel in there, but I'd rather not have to deal with breeding since this is for displaying individuals.


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

Did you make this, that is pretty cool, the only thing I'd be worried about is the glass fogging up if it is meant for display purposes, nice work though, I like the idea and it looks plenty big for two imis


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I've really been wanting to do one of these soon. Any clue where I can get a precut piece like this? Would be a really cool vivarium for thumbnails. Obviously only one or two but I think with the height you can make it work if designed well. This looks great!!!


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Hey Travis,

Well I bought the cylinder. They state it's glass, but James was looking at it and said he thought it was acrylic. I scraped an edge and what looked like dust came off, so I'm guessing he's right. 

I put together everything about two weeks ago. So far the LEDs seems to be okay for the plants since I do see growth. I haven't had a problem with fogging so far. But I just put the Varadero in two days ago.

The height and diameter are about the same as a 10 gallon tank. But since it's a cylinder the lack of edges makes you lose 3.5 gallons. I honestly think gallons is not the best way to be making the determination. With more foliage growth for hiding and canopy for arboreal movement, I think it could work for two imis. And as a cylinder the Varadero has an easy time getting around (no pun intended). However I wouldn't want to try to get eggs or tadpole out of this. I just thought it's visually nicer with two. Maybe for juvies or something.

Justin


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Hey DJ,

Send you a PM.

Justin


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

While I like the idea of a cylindrical viv, this viv is only around 6 gallons.... Way too small for permanent viv, even for a small thumbnail like an imitator.


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

can you get them in bigger sizes ? seems like a cool idea


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

shrum said:


> can you get them in bigger sizes ? seems like a cool idea


They get exponentially more expensive the bigger they get.....I looked into a 4 foot tall with 3 foot diameter cylinder for a reef tank and it was around $5000 and that was the cheapest I could find.....Of course the bigger they are the thicker they are also good ones are a single cast and not a sheet that is heat treated to be bent and welded. Those were a bit cheaper but weaker and there was a seam. But for a viv the seam could be hidden and don't have to hold the pressure of water weight.


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## auratus61 (Jan 24, 2011)

Konton, where did you purchase the cylinder? Great idea!


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

If I could find a 24" x 12" I would. But they don't make them that size and it would look huge on a desk. The 20" x 10" actually fits nicely. 

I'm starting to disagree that 20" x 10" wouldn't work well for even two. These aren't fish and as such using gallons is just a bad measurement. Probably better for discussing boxes, and then we start expanding the measurements to include which is height and which is width.

Oddly, the 2007 Poison Dart Frogs (Complete Herp Care) by Amanda Sihler and Greg Sihler states 2.5 gallons is fine for a thumbnail. While again, I don't think these guys are the experts and I don't agree with using gallons as a measurement is good, I do find it interesting they distinguish between sizes of frogs. 

auratus61, I'll send ya a PM.

Justin


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I really like the look of it.....You can always try it and keep an eye on them for stress or aggression. I bet if you had a male/female it might be even better. I know in my 60 cube they(1.2) are hardly ever away from each other even with all that room more often then not they are in close proximity to each other....Might have to start looking again for a cylinder.....Great looking tube.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

It looks fantastic, but I'm thinking it's going to be a nightmare to keep looking nice once the plants take off. How has misting been? How do you keep it off the viewing area?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

konton said:


> I'm starting to disagree that 20" x 10" wouldn't work well for even two. These aren't fish and as such using gallons is just a bad measurement. Probably better for discussing boxes, and then we start expanding the measurements to include which is height and which is width.
> 
> Oddly, the 2007 Poison Dart Frogs (Complete Herp Care) by Amanda Sihler and Greg Sihler states 2.5 gallons is fine for a thumbnail. While again, I don't think these guys are the experts and I don't agree with using gallons as a measurement is good, I do find it interesting they distinguish between sizes of frogs.


I'd say the initial idea behind the argument is fair. A well set up 18" cube is going to be a better than a 60 gallon tank with a paper towel and a water bowl. But when we discuss how many gallons per frog you should have, we're usually assuming that the tank is a well set up tank that utilizes the space that the gallons provide. So gallons isn't really that bad a measurement.

The suggestion that 2.5 gallons per thumb is fine as a general rule is asinine. I know a few people who could pull that off, but not many. But even assuming that 2.5 gallons per thumb is fine, why would you _want_ to cram two frogs into 5 gallons? I'm assuming you wouldn't want to be locked in your bathroom with your significant other for an extended period of time.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I'd say the initial idea behind the argument is fair. A well set up 18" cube is going to be a better than a 60 gallon tank with a paper towel and a water bowl. But when we discuss how many gallons per frog you should have, we're usually assuming that the tank is a well set up tank that utilizes the space that the gallons provide. So gallons isn't really that bad a measurement.
> 
> The suggestion that 2.5 gallons per thumb is fine as a general rule is asinine. I know a few people who could pull that off, but not many. But even assuming that 2.5 gallons per thumb is fine, why would you _want_ to cram two frogs into 5 gallons? I'm assuming you wouldn't want to be locked in your bathroom with your significant other for an extended period of time.


First I'd agree 2.5 gallons per thumb is pushing it (at least), but there is a long history of pairs of thumbs in a 10 gal (that most would probably consider "successful") and seeing that many thumbs tend to stick to the back wall/plantings his cylinder is basically a 10vert without much of a front yard area. His plantings look like they are pushing near the front glass, and the upper front of most 10verts is just wasted space. Basically create an imaginary plane from the top back to a bottom front of a 10 vert and everything behind that plane is the most used area... his tank essentially just does away with the unused area. He looses a little useful real estate, but most of what is sacrificed isn't prime area. So seems to me there is likely more then enough for 1 adult. (But IMO, not quite enough for 2)

In a typical 10 vert the frogs would have 5gal per frog...if he is keeping a single adult frog in that tank its getting 6.5 gal all to itself, and nearly all the most typically used area that a 10 vert would have. So from my perspective I wouldn't have a problem keeping a single adult in a tank like that, especially the way he has it setup/planted...a pair though, I personally wouldn't be comfortable with. My guess is it can be done, and may even work out the majority of the time as far as the frogs living long lives and breeding but I think at that point you are just pushing your luck more then is responsible. 

Of course I'd love to see 15-20 gal verts for every pair of frogs


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I'd say the initial idea behind the argument is fair. A well set up 18" cube is going to be a better than a 60 gallon tank with a paper towel and a water bowl. But when we discuss how many gallons per frog you should have, we're usually assuming that the tank is a well set up tank that utilizes the space that the gallons provide. So gallons isn't really that bad a measurement.
> 
> The suggestion that 2.5 gallons per thumb is fine as a general rule is asinine. I know a few people who could pull that off, but not many. But even assuming that 2.5 gallons per thumb is fine, why would you _want_ to cram two frogs into 5 gallons? I'm assuming you wouldn't want to be locked in your bathroom with your significant other for an extended period of time.


Hu? Your explanation doesn't explain why gallons are a good measurement. You compare an 18" cube to a 60 gallon tank. I have no idea what the measurements are for a 60 gallon tank. You're simply saying is larger is better assuming everything is equal. Could you explain more clearly how this is a fair measurement? I'd like to understand better. How many gallons is your house? I measure mine in square feet, Unfortunately I'm not arboreal. I think it makes more sense to think in three dimensional terms beyond floor space since we're discussing an arboreal species. If the frogs make use of the glass and multiple levels of canopy, it needs to be taken into consideration. 

A film canister to a thumbnail might be a more apt comparative to a bathroom for people. And interestingly enough that's exactly where my frogs like to spend an extended period of time together.


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> First I'd agree 2.5 gallons per thumb is pushing it (at least), but there is a long history of pairs of thumbs in a 10 gal (that most would probably consider "successful") and seeing that many thumbs tend to stick to the back wall/plantings his cylinder is basically a 10vert without much of a front yard area. His plantings look like they are pushing near the front glass, and the upper front of most 10verts is just wasted space. Basically create an imaginary plane from the top back to a bottom front of a 10 vert and everything behind that plane is the most used area... his tank essentially just does away with the unused area. He looses a little useful real estate, but most of what is sacrificed isn't prime area. So seems to me there is likely more then enough for 1 adult. (But IMO, not quite enough for 2)
> 
> In a typical 10 vert the frogs would have 5gal per frog...if he is keeping a single adult frog in that tank its getting 6.5 gal all to itself, and nearly all the most typically used area that a 10 vert would have. So from my perspective I wouldn't have a problem keeping a single adult in a tank like that, especially the way he has it setup/planted...a pair though, I personally wouldn't be comfortable with. My guess is it can be done, and may even work out the majority of the time as far as the frogs living long lives and breeding but I think at that point you are just pushing your luck more then is responsible.
> 
> Of course I'd love to see 15-20 gal verts for every pair of frogs


Most of my frogs do tend to use the glass. I agree, much of the space we discuss in gallons tends to go unused. I like those tanks Pumilio designed with the angled fronts which remove that space from the equation. This also seems to suggest gallons really is a term that should be referenced to cubes and rectangles. 

In it's current state it's only good for one frog. I'll post in a few months when it's grown in. I think the full canopy will make a difference.

Justin


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

konton said:


> ... Unfortunately I'm not arboreal...


Ha! I have met Justin, and though light on his feet, I can confirm he is definitely not arboreal.


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

But I wish I was!

Justin


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

konton said:


> Hu? Your explanation doesn't explain why gallons are a good measurement. You compare an 18" cube to a 60 gallon tank. I have no idea what the measurements are for a 60 gallon tank. You're simply saying is larger is better assuming everything is equal. Could you explain more clearly how this is a fair measurement? I'd like to understand better. How many gallons is your house? I measure mine in square feet, Unfortunately I'm not arboreal. I think it makes more sense to think in three dimensional terms beyond floor space since we're discussing an arboreal species. If the frogs make use of the glass and multiple levels of canopy, it needs to be taken into consideration.
> 
> A film canister to a thumbnail might be a more apt comparative to a bathroom for people. And interestingly enough that's exactly where my frogs like to spend an extended period of time together.


This is essentially what you are arguing.. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...mixing-multispecies-exhibits-2.html#post28627


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

So there is no need for the concept of shared space? When Michelle moved in I didn't need to double the size of the house. I realize we can both leave and such but what are your thoughts on this?


Ed said:


> This is essentially what you are arguing..
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...mixing-multispecies-exhibits-2.html#post28627


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Couple of large acrylic tubes. You have to go cast and not extruded as extruded is not nearly as clear. That brings the price way up. I used to deal with these guys when I built aquarium equipment.

McMaster-Carr
10" cast x 2 ft long $124.23 McMaster-Carr

12" cast x 2 ft long $180.57 McMaster-Carr


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> So there is no need for the concept of shared space? When Michelle moved in I didn't need to double the size of the house. I realize we can both leave and such but what are your thoughts on this?


How are you defining shared space? 

Ed


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks ED. Pretty much. I like your argument on wasted space. One consideration not in the equation is the need for open space. But thats a hard consideration when dealing with enclosures. For some reason my mind today is on dogs in kennels and how much my frogs like to hide at night with a leaf pressed against them.

$180 for a 24"x12"! Ouch! Mine was $42 for a 20"x10." But thanks for the info.

Justin


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

konton said:


> Oddly, the 2007 Poison Dart Frogs (Complete Herp Care) by Amanda Sihler and Greg Sihler states 2.5 gallons is fine for a thumbnail. While again, I don't think these guys are the experts and I don't agree with using gallons as a measurement is good, I do find it interesting they distinguish between sizes of frogs.
> 
> 
> Justin


I have done it, and don't recommend it for everyone. It is a lot more work when dealing with smaller vivariums. Read: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/10776-living-world-small-pals-pen.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

konton said:


> Thanks ED. Pretty much. I like your argument on wasted space. One consideration not in the equation is the need for open space. But thats a hard consideration when dealing with enclosures. For some reason my mind today is on dogs in kennels and how much my frogs like to hide at night with a leaf pressed against them.
> 
> $180 for a 24"x12"! Ouch! Mine was $42 for a 20"x10." But thanks for the info.
> 
> Justin


Open space is part of the area that is already incorporated in the calculation.. the frogs can't float.. so the open volume is surplus to the needs of the frogs.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

It seems to me 2 animals could occupy the same 5 gallons if they slept together, had the bathroom in the same area, ate over the same bowl, got there water from the same soakdish, etc.etc. Your describing making 2 of everything for each frog. Wouldn't it be more about territoriality depending on the sex ratio? There may not be a space big enough for 5 males and a female Or vice versa. For the bacteria to handle the waste put out, or the plants, it seems like the substrate layer would have to grow deeper also. Or would the increased surface area handle it?



Ed said:


> How are you defining shared space?
> 
> Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> It seems to me 2 animals could occupy the same 5 gallons if they slept together, had the bathroom in the same area, ate over the same bowl, got there water from the same soakdish, etc.etc. Your describing making 2 of everything for each frog. Wouldn't it be more about territoriality depending on the sex ratio? There may not be a space big enough for 5 males and a female Or vice versa. For the bacteria to handle the waste put out, or the plants, it seems like the substrate layer would have to grow deeper also. Or would the increased surface area handle it?


I think you need to read the linked thread.. based on this you didn't understand the discussion on that thread, which is why I asked what you were thinking. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Your right it's a hard read. Your talk was about multi species, I'm talking about single species. Your talk just says to think about how aggressive the animals in question were. It's a hard read as you jump back and forth from talking about one species and multiple species. Is that supposed to mean take into consideration the sex ratios when referring to aggression?
What I'm talking about for this tank(cylinder) is having a member of the opposite sex inhabit the enclosure. It's not per frog, it should be per pair and each individual of an opposite sex after that? 1.5 should need room for 5 frogs as should 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 and 5.5 as long as there is no difference in aggression. Whle 2.2 should be fine w/ room for 2 frogs. Heavy male or female ratios aren't the same as equal pairs as aggression is involved.
It seems to me if the requirements are fine for one frog it should be able to also hold a mate, but will have to jump to more than double the size for 2 pairs or an extra of either sex considering the sex ratio determines the aggression.



Ed said:


> I think you need to read the linked thread.. based on this you didn't understand the discussion on that thread, which is why I asked what you were thinking.
> 
> Ed


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Just as a visual size comparison, here's my frog room. 










You can see the cylinder on the left of the rack. Since it's rimless it looks slightly slimmer, but the height and width are the same as those 10 gallon tanks on the rack. Plus because the glass curves the frog has more space to move. Previously in the 10 gallon tanks the leaves of the broms were too far from the front glass to allow forward movement. Not so with a cylinder. The frog easily jumps from canopy to glass with ease, and still has space to hide around the foliage. In the 10 gallon tanks the leaves are not close enough to the front of the tank to allow for such movement, leaving much wasted space.

On top of the rack you can see a Montana Jar I was testing. It's 2.5 gallons and is totally small. But I base that on looking at the jar, not knowing the amount of liquid it can hold. Not a good and happy home for a frog, but great for growing plants in high humidity. 

I think when you get to physically look at and study something you have a better understand of it. Sometimes text doesn't do three dimension objects justice.

On the subject of open space before, I was referring to what a specific animal needed. For example I can't stand homes with less than a 9 foot ceiling. But some people like their old school ranch houses. Dogs like the outdoors, but in a kennel that sleep in small cages. Thumbnail dart frogs breed in film canisters, spend time on the ground under leaf litter, but also enjoy climbing high trees in open terrain. So I question how much open space they really need above their head, and horizontal area to move.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Your room looks awesome and very well organized!!!


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## bcfrog (Jun 3, 2010)

Konton, amazing frog room, what are the tanks on the right? Are they custom? Thanks for sharing the pic. Inspiring...

B


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

bcfrog said:


> Konton, amazing frog room, what are the tanks on the right? Are they custom? Thanks for sharing the pic. Inspiring...
> 
> B


Thanks Larry. Thanks B. They are custom modified. You can see my build thread here. I guess I should have put it under construction:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...-vivarium-build-five-15-gallon-verticals.html

I've since tested out other options and given up on lower vents. The lower venting hold the humidity best, but are prone to humidity dripping through. All my new tanks will have a small single 3/4" circular vent just because it's easier.

I'm also testing new lid / light ideas for the circular tanks. My hope is they will be sale worth. But let's face it. No one wants heavy acrylic shipped that only hold one frog. Or maybe they do  Either way I'll add the single 3/4" circular vent to the lid.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Couple of large acrylic tubes. You have to go cast and not extruded as extruded is not nearly as clear. That brings the price way up. I used to deal with these guys when I built aquarium equipment.
> 
> McMaster-Carr
> 10" cast x 2 ft long $124.23 McMaster-Carr
> ...


your absolutely right. cell cast is the way to go, but it gets EXPENSIVE! the 28"dia tube i looked at was about $300 per linear ft. and that was the inexpensive thin walled stuff. 

mcmaster is great, but i really cant stand their inability to quote shipping costs.

james


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Nice "stand" for your custom tanks! Great minds think alike I guess haha.


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

What can I say. Ikea was having a sale.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

I've been using those bookcases for stands for fish tanks / frog tanks for years. They're great!


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Agreed! 

Hey, does anyone know a decent place to get a pot lid to put on the cover of a 10" cylinder? 

If I can't find one I'm going to try a 10-inch in diameter piece of acrylic:
Plastic Circles: TAP Plastics

This sucker seems acrylic so I think I can get a hinge to cement to both. At my work we have sky lights, so get get bright diffused light in the office. I'm thinking with a transparent top, light can easily keep the plants growing.

Also I've been using a 60mm and 80mm Angel Eye White Light Ring Headlights for about two weeks now and so far the plants seem to be doing okay. 3528SMD LED's provide a pretty good amount of lumens compared to little round LED's. 









I'm using only 39 total LEDs with a 60mm (15) and an 80mm (24). So I'm considering ramping it up to a 140mm (44) and a 120mm (39), which will give me 83 LEDs. That's a diameter of 5.5 inches, which still leaves room for more, but I can't find any larger sized rings, plus I don't think I need rings all the way to the edges.

Dinodirect.com is doing a 2 @ half price, so I was considering getting a 140mm, 120mm, 100mm, 80mm, and 60mm. That's a total of 155 LEDs x2 (cause I get two of each) for $56 with shipping. But I want to verify the white of those lights first.

I really like these light since they are directional and I can easily glue them to the top. But with only 39 they are not as bight as I can get with an CFL.

I recall someone else had back luck with 96 3528SMD LEDs but I can't find the link:









Not good for the cylinder but interesting for internal tank lights. Anyone know what happened?

Justin


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I've posted those last bulbs in a few threads, but I'm not sure anyone has actually tried them yet. Maybe thats what you are thinking of? I've been meaning to try them, but money keeps going to other places.


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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

Haha! My wife saw the picture of your frog room, and the first thing she noticed was the Ikea bookself that your vivs are on! I think if I decide to get more vivs, I can use your example of what it could look like as a selling point... so, thank you. You just enabled my addiction.


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Well here is a video where it's on a glass side table. I decided to put it in the living room. My wife likes it there. So maybe that will help you as well.

I think when tanks are small, easily mobile, and look like works of art . . . flowers in a vase so to speak, it makes it an easier sell. I've been more focused on lighting these days, as you can see by this video.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

konton said:


> I think when you get to physically look at and study something you have a better understand of it. Sometimes text doesn't do three dimension objects justice.
> 
> On the subject of open space before, I was referring to what a specific animal needed. For example I can't stand homes with less than a 9 foot ceiling. But some people like their old school ranch houses. Dogs like the outdoors, but in a kennel that sleep in small cages. Thumbnail dart frogs breed in film canisters, spend time on the ground under leaf litter, but also enjoy climbing high trees in open terrain. So I question how much open space they really need above their head, and horizontal area to move.


Physically looking at the available area in the cylinder in the video with you sitting next to it tells me that there isn't enough usable space for a pair. Especially if you plan on marketing these as "dart frog enclosures". In terms of volume, try deducting the space that is occupied by the substrate and background, and see what's left.


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## froggymike (Jan 11, 2010)

Very cool! But way too small for a pair of any frog


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## joshct (Mar 31, 2011)

thats a nice room


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

I wouldn't recommend these for a pair of dart frogs. Mainly because it's hard as hell to take anything out of them! Trying to pull eggs or tads would be quite difficult.

Justin


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## Azsunspot161 (Apr 27, 2007)

how are you going to reach the eggs when they lay them?


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

They won't have eggs if there is only one frog in there. 

Justin


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Just a quick update. The 6.8 gallon cylinder is doing really well. It's great for adventurous frogs. But I agree that's it good for only one frog.










The tri-circle LED lights work out great! Cost me about $15 plus the transformer.

I'm looking at getting some 30" tall by 10" in diameter glass cylinders (10.2 gallons). These will cost about $50 each and still require shipping. If anyone in the San Francisco bay area want to go in on them with me I'd appreciate it. 

Justin


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