# 360 Gallon Plywood Build



## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm just getting started with my first plywood build, 6'Lx2'Dx4'T. My schedule's pretty open for the winter so I can't wait to get into this build! I spent the past month or so researching and mapping out the project. I finally got to break out the power tools this week  Woodwork is going smoothly so far, I have about 8 hours labor into it.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Here's what I have so far. I'd love to hear some input from some of the plywood veterans on here


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## morphman (May 20, 2011)

Not a plywood pro but your build looks great so far. My biggest worry would be sealing/waterproofing the plywood. Keep us posted.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

morphman said:


> Not a plywood pro but your build looks great so far. My biggest worry would be sealing/waterproofing the plywood. Keep us posted.


It's really pretty easy to seal wood. Drylok or epoxies do a wonderful job of this and will last a very long time (especially a good zoo grade epoxy).

As to the OP. Looking great so far. I think you got a pretty sturdy base going for sure, which is a must for this kind of gargantuan build lol.


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## ch3tt (Apr 4, 2012)

Very cool, i've been contemplating building a large plywood but i'm not sure i've got it in me haha. It looks like you've got a great start, good luck with the build, i'll be following along!


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks guys  I ordered three gallons of Polygem 1319 at the beginning of the week. I did a bunch of reading on here and on some aquarium forums and this seemed to be the best reviewed product for the job. Just wish it wasn't so damn expensive


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Damn I'm jealous... I would love to be building something like that right now.

I finished my build like 4 months ago and I'm going through withdrawals lol

What are you planning on putting in there?


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Lol I feel ya man. I'm looking at doing a conversion of display case into a snake paludarium (mostly land) and I'm trying to think of the best way to do my pond, especially considering there will be a water level drain and a bottom drain it in. I'm going to have it hooked up to a sump with a bunch of pothos growing in it for filtration. Right now I'm pretty sure some polygem is my best bet for making damn sure my drains (as well as the return for the waterfall) are all 100% bombproof sealed to the wood bottom this will have. I'm just stuck on what I can sculpt my waterfall, stream and pond out of that would work with epoxy on top. Can you epoxy great stuff?


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Snake paludarium sounds awesome... When I was a kid my friends father built a wooden set up that he filled with potting soil and regular houseplants... He built it over a fish tank with a small opening that was right over the water. The tank was filled with goldfish feeders and the box had (probably too many) brown snakes and garters. The snakes would jump in the water and chase then grab fish anytime they were hungry; then climb back up in the box... 

All they had to do is keep the fish tank stocked with feeders. Closest thing to a self sustaining ecosystem I've seen and that was a long time ago. Looked ghetto but It was amazing to watch.

I would do drylock and GS... I love the way that looks when you use like 4 different tints. Definitely doing that for my next build.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

cam1941 said:


> Damn I'm jealous... I would love to be building something like that right now.
> 
> I finished my build like 4 months ago and I'm going through withdrawals lol
> 
> What are you planning on putting in there?


It all depends on how much money I'm willing to spend on frogs after draining my bank account to build and plant this haha. 

I'd love to do a large group of Pumilio, maybe Bastis, but that's only if I can afford it.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Sounds awesome... The good thing is that it will be awhile before you can put frogs in there so you'll have time to get more cash to spend lol

My only advice is take your time and get everything exactly the way you want it. Enjoy every moment because once you're done... You will be sad and want to build more lol



jonjoyce346 said:


> It all depends on how much money I'm willing to spend on frogs after draining my bank account to build and plant this haha.
> 
> I'd love to do a large group of Pumilio, maybe Bastis, but that's only if I can afford it.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

cam1941 said:


> Snake paludarium sounds awesome... When I was a kid my friends father built a wooden set up that he filled with potting soil and regular houseplants... He built it over a fish tank with a small opening that was right over the water. The tank was filled with goldfish feeders and the box had (probably too many) brown snakes and garters. The snakes would jump in the water and chase then grab fish anytime they were hungry; then climb back up in the box...
> 
> All they had to do is keep the fish tank stocked with feeders. Closest thing to a self sustaining ecosystem I've seen and that was a long time ago. Looked ghetto but It was amazing to watch.
> 
> I would do drylock and GS... I love the way that looks when you use like 4 different tints. Definitely doing that for my next build.


Man I hate to break it to you (and nobody knew this back then), but those goldfish were killing the garters : / They contain thiaminase....nasty enzyme that blocks the uptake of B2 by the snakes and other animals that might eat them.

Still though I'm basically doing that except I want a zoo quality pond and I will be doing bioactive with the land side.

Do you think drylock would seal to the PVC drains well enough?


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Haha, I feel you Cam, I've got a really good opportunity to work on this for the next couple months, won't have to rush anything. I'm in construction and it's seasonal, incredibly busy from the beginning of april until the end of september, then I get a chance to heal my body  So viv building can be my main focus for the off season.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Bummer... Def never heard that, too bad it was so easy to maintain. He got the idea because he wanted to go on vacation lol

What are you feeding then, different kind of fish?

Honestly not sure about the drain but if there is a doubt then use this:

Pond Shield Epoxy by Pond Armor | Pond Liners

Its expensive but I've read many great things. I bought some for a build that I never ended up doing. A lot of the plywood fish tank guys use it.



Rushthezeppelin said:


> Man I hate to break it to you (and nobody knew this back then), but those goldfish were killing the garters : / They contain thiaminase....nasty enzyme that blocks the uptake of B2 by the snakes and other animals that might eat them.
> 
> Still though I'm basically doing that except I want a zoo quality pond and I will be doing bioactive with the land side.
> 
> Do you think drylock would seal to the PVC drains well enough?


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

I mostly stick to clean pure tilapia filets F/T when doing fish. They also eat earthworms and I've got two of mine on unscented pinks so far. I do plan to do a guppy breeding operation eventually hooked up to an indoor aquaponics setup so I can let them have plenty of safe, parasite free, thiaminase free fish for them to chase in the pond I'm going to do.


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## ikhanthequiet (Oct 21, 2015)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Haha, I feel you Cam, I've got a really good opportunity to work on this for the next couple months, won't have to rush anything. I'm in construction and it's seasonal, incredibly busy from the beginning of april until the end of september, then I get a chance to heal my body  So viv building can be my main focus for the off season.


This is looking like it will be an awesome build! Definitely subscribing. 

I'm with you on that seasonal thing too, my busy season just ended and so I started a tank as well 

Sent from my SM-S902L using Tapatalk


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Put in a solid day's work today. Whole lotta measurements, cuts, and screws, my back's killing me from all the wierd drill angles  

I put in a tilted floor because I want to dam off most of the bottom. I'm doing a water section on the left third of the tank. I did some calculating and at 6" deep, I would have about 375 lbs of water with a typical false bottom. With 2/3 of the bottom blocked off, I can cut that down to about 15 gallons, ~125 lbs. I gave it plenty of support so I'll be able to put whatever I want on it and the water should run off into the pond. Tomorrow, I'll get a board in place to block off that front alley, from there I'll be almost ready to epoxy.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Are you going to make it so that you will be able to look into the water from the front?


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

cam1941 said:


> Snake paludarium sounds awesome... When I was a kid my friends father built a wooden set up that he filled with potting soil and regular houseplants... He built it over a fish tank with a small opening that was right over the water. The tank was filled with goldfish feeders and the box had (probably too many) brown snakes and garters. The snakes would jump in the water and chase then grab fish anytime they were hungry; then climb back up in the box...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude that sounds so awesome!


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Yeah man it was... I could stare at it for hours. I'm pretty sure that's how I ended up with my fish tank then viv addiction lol


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

cam1941 said:


> Are you going to make it so that you will be able to look into the water from the front?


Not for this build man, I know I'm gonna regret it but I'm already experimenting too much with this build haha. I've never worked with glass like that and I guess I was intimidated by the task, didn't want to botch it on such a big project. If I'm still into plywood after this build, I think I'll want to do a paludarium with a good front view into the water section.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Too bad but I hear you... Definitely don't want to over complicate something if it can come back to haunt you later. You can avoid visible standing water altogether if you like and just add a drain to remove the runoff.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you handle the sliding doors especially. I really want to do one of these, because you have so much control over the finished product.



jonjoyce346 said:


> Not for this build man, I know I'm gonna regret it but I'm already experimenting too much with this build haha. I've never worked with glass like that and I guess I was intimidated by the task, didn't want to botch it on such a big project. If I'm still into plywood after this build, I think I'll want to do a paludarium with a good front view into the water section.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Just finished up with the carpentry, I made a little gutter in the front so all the water will flow into a pond on the left.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm headed back to the north woods in Maine today, gonna have to put the project on hold until Friday, when I return. I'll be meeting up with Todd from lightyourreptiles.com in Gardiner on my way home. We've been discussing the build and I can't wait to see what he's got in store for me for lighting! My favorite option he described to me would consist of a 24" 8 bulb fixture left over from a zoo project, supplemented with four jungle dawn led spotlights. The spotlights would be oriented in a way to mimic the the sun's path across the sky. The first to come on would be at a steep angle on one side to replicate a sunrise, then the next one over, then the flourescent fixture, then the rest of the spotlights. As the day turns to evening, the "morning" side of the lights will shut off, then just one spotlight angled to mimic the evening sun. I've never seen this done, but this build is full of experiments for me and I can't wait to try it out!


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Interesting idea. I've always thought about having a large herp room with a stupidly powerful/large 6500k LED spot on an arched track in the room.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

That'd be insane if you could pull that off, never seen anything like that. How big of a track are you thinking of?


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Just got home from Maine last night, had an awesome trip! There was some beautiful wood along side the mountain streams up there and I got a little greedy  I'll post some pics of the harvest when I'm free later today.

On my way home, I stopped by Todd Goode's place to pick up lights for the build. It was awesome to get to talk with him, he runs a great business (lightyoureeptiles.com), check out the site if you haven't already. I'm super excited about what he had for me.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Wow that's some serious business lighting >.>


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Hi Jon-
Thanks for stopping by.
It was great talking to you.

For readers, Jon also showed me his truck bed FULL of awesome driftwood and roots he collected in the Maine woods,

He has come up with some really awesome gnarly driftwood branches and logs.

I suspect this set up is going to be a real show stopper! 

Can't wait to see the progress.



fyi-
those are the new Jungle Dawn® 40 w spots w/ 6.5K , 93+ CRI and Internal Fan.

In North America:
Jungle | Dawn® |40 |Watt | MEGA | Plant | Grow |Spotlight

and Arcadia is selling them through-out Europe.
Here's a cool video:
Jungle Dawn 40W Spot LED : Arcadia Reptile

These spots are the result of 3 years work. 

Thank you.

Cheers
Todd





jonjoyce346 said:


> Just got home from Maine last night, had an awesome trip! There was some beautiful wood along side the mountain streams up there and I got a little greedy  I'll post some pics of the harvest when I'm free later today.
> 
> On my way home, I stopped by Todd Goode's place to pick up lights for the build. It was awesome to get to talk with him, he runs a great business (lightyoureeptiles.com), check out the site if you haven't already. I'm super excited about what he had for me.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Put in a full day's work today, all carpentry. There's been a whole lot more woodwork than I had anticipated but it's been really fun putting this thing together. I thought I'd be on to epoxy by now but I want to completely finish the structure first so the epoxy won't go through any unnecessary vibrations/jolts.

No pics today  My phone and my computer are both giving me trouble with uploading. I'm not exactly tech savvy, lol.

I've been wanting to show off the wood I found last week, one piece must've weighed over 150 pounds! It was a tree whose base was eroded away by a stream, it had fallen halfway over but it was still alive, so not much rot. I cut it at the lowest point I could and took what I absolutely need of it, about ten feet  It was about a half mile into the mountainous, thick woods from my truck and I don't even want to talk about the process of getting it to my truck, lol. Anyone have a massive autoclave? 

Will post pics as soon as my devices will let me.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Check it out!


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I ended up taking more than I want to store, if anyone in New England is interested in any pieces shoot me a pm. I'm kinda too busy to deal with shipping and logistics at the moment.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Here's where I'm at after today's work. I'm making a "spring" at the top of that structure on the right. It'll run off into a stream that'll empty into a pond on the left. The spring structure took me about six hours today, the bottom of the spring is accessible from underneath so I can install a bulkhead to feed in water from a sump.

I've been reinforcing the crap out of it  I could climb up in there and stomp on every square inch of the viv floor.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I built a housing for the 24" T5 fixture today.

I'm in the process of getting supplies for an air circulation system, which will be built into the hood. I found a product that's used to circulate air in boat bilges. It's inline like a duct fan, but it's made to withstand moisture and it's compatible with 3" pvc. For only 30$ I couldn't help but order one 

Here is what I hope to get done in the next couple weeks:
-cut in a plywood ceiling
-drill holes for circulation lines
-move the viv into my house
-epoxy and fiberglass
-build a sump
-start buildin a stream using pvc pipe bent and shaped with a heat gun


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

We're inside!!! I had a couple of my stronger friends over today to help move the viv from the shed into my house.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I finally finished up with the carpentry last night. I made up some ff proof light mounts with 4" pvc drain pipe, pvc board, and silicone. 

After the silicone cured, I hooked up all of the lights and fired them up. It was awesome to finally get to see the full effect of the lighting!

Here are a few pics  In the one with the lights on, it's actually not dark at all in the room, the camera had adjusted to the brightness of the viv, making the room look dark.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I've finally started with epoxy and fiberglass! I fiberglassed most of the seams and joints today.

This is my first time working with these materials and it's proving to be even less fun than I had anticipated, lol. I'm working with some weird angles and small spaces in the upper right section and it's pretty difficult to get the fiberglass done nicely. I'm trying to keep the mess under control but it's tough because the more time I spend keeping things neat, the less time I have to work with the epoxy before it thickens.

I learned the hard way that epoxy will seep through tiny spaces between the plywood sections, I didn't think I had anything more than a 16th inch gap but quite a bit of epoxy made it through and trickled into a puddle on the drop cloth I'm working over It goes right through the drop cloth too, lol.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Just finished fiberglassing all of the joints and seams. I had a rough start working with the epoxy, my first batch failed to cure on me. I must've undermixed it or got the ratio slightly off. After a brief display of profanity, I took out the acetone and about 20 rags to clean it all off. Luckily the batch was only about a cup, but I spent about 3 hours to undo 2 hours of work... I'm not proud of it, but I'm a trial and error learner, always have been  Won't be making that mistake again.

Despite the mishaps, I'm very confident that it won't leak.

I've gotta say I'm glad the epoxy won't be visible when I'm done, lol. I got the hang of it after a couple hours of practice, but the first successful application wasn't exactly pretty.

I want to put down one more quick coat tomorrow, just where it looks thin. After that I can get to work on the water feature!


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Fitted together some ductwork just to make sure everything would fit the way I had envisioned it. I've got an inline fan in the middle that will draw from one side of the tank and feed to the other. I still have to put feed and return lines in the tank, but I was going to do that later in the project. Maybe try to disguise them as vines with silicone and coco fiber or just cover them with GS. I want to build a waterfall and a stream before putting anything in the way.

I had an idea to regulate airflow and kind of control a ratio of circulation to ventilation. Once I have the viv up and running, I'll be able to remove pieces of ductwork, cut slots or drill holes in them and put them back in place. I will do it in a way that the air exchange through the slots/holes will blow across the light fixture for cooling. 

My thought is that I can start with small slots/holes, test them and gradually increase size until I find the ratio I'm looking for. The larger the holes, the greater the ventilation, the smaller the holes, the greater the circulation.

Any thoughts on this?
Does anyone have any advice on a good ratio of air circulation to ventilation?

Thanks,
Jon


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

looking good so far


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## tarbo96 (Jan 12, 2006)

Nice...that is why I like PVC, already waterproof


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks 

I've been thinking about doing a vine background, pretty much completely inspired by Raf's vivarium, that tank is incredible!

After making a small amount of fake liana, I learned that it's not only a huge amount of work to pull off a background like that, but it must cost hundreds of dollars in silicone, rope and pvc. A tube of silicone doesn't go too far in coating a thick piece of rope or pipe, lol. For this reason, I'd like to try real vines cut from the woods, but I'd need to know that they'd hold up.

I have some really old concord grape vines in the woods behind my house and I think they'd look amazing. Does anyone have anything to say about using real vines cut from the woods? I haven't seen much about it online but it seems like an easy way to create a beautiful background IF they will hold up in the viv. 

I know grape wood is notorious for molding up and breaking down in a viv setting, anyone think these vines may have different properties? or not? 

I'm having trouble finding out what species the commercially available grape wood comes from, but it does look very different from these vines, here's a pic.

I'd love to get some advice, even if it's that I shouldn't use them, then I can at least stop thinking about it 

Thanks,
Jon


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

One alternative to using silicone for coir backgrounds is drylok. The bonus to this is you can also use it to make more rocky textures as well.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I've passed the wet test!!! 

After a failed test, I went back and put a second layer of fiberglass down in the problem area and a few more coats of epoxy over everything. A few days ago, I thought I had everything sealed up thoroughly, but lo and behold, I had a leak in the top right reservoir.

I guess I had overestimated the malleability of fiberglass. I tried to fiberglass some convex 90° joints that were off by about 1/8". LESSON LEARNED; fiberglass cloth will not stick to a surface when bent fibers are pulling away from the wood. The leak really showed me the importance of flawless cuts and careful measurement. Most of the joints and seams were good, but the woodwork got a little elaborate for my skill level up in the top right section of the build, especially going without a plan, lol. One thing I will definitely do in the future is rout any corners to be fiberglassed. I really wish I had known that from the start.

Also, I didn't know that fiberglass cloth that is not in contact with the wood is not necessarily waterproof even with a coat or two of epoxy over it. I cut out all the fiberglass that was not in contact with the wood and redid it with two layers. I filled it up a few hours ago and have seen no signs of leakage.

Check out this saw I get to use for the waterfall  My father bought it a few years back for a stone patio we built, but we never use it. A couple weeks ago, the lightbulb went off and it occurred to me that I could use it to cut rocks for the build. It cuts right through them! My idea is to cut off the faces of rocks that I want to use, eliminating most of the weight while giving me a flat surface for silicone. I'm going to try to silicone rocks to the panel on the right for a waterfall. Can't wait to start experimenting with this!!!


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## gnathaniel (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks for documenting this build! I'm eager to see how it looks all planted out. 

I would expect those grapevines will mold a lot in the humid environment. I used to mount orchids on wild grapevines but stopped because they got very moldy even on low-humidity windowsills. I never found that roots or moss grew well on them, either. 

None are vines, but my favorite found woods for orchids are crape myrtle, rhododendron, and red cedar, though many think the latter will be toxic to animals in a viv (not a problem for me b/c I'm a plants-only guy). You could also try making artificial vines from ecoweb (or pond filter mesh) wrapped in fabrics like polyester craft felt or spacer mesh, which is essentially the same thing as hygrolon.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks gnathaniel, I'll probably end up making fake vines. I don't want to do all this work to have the vines rot in a year or two. I am going to throw one vine in to see how it holds up, then in a couple years, I'll know if those vines can be used.

I mounted the centerpiece today, hopefully can work on a waterfall tomorrow.

Jon


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## wlrodman (Nov 3, 2015)

I set my vivariums up so I can adjust the fresh air intake... If your circulation system draws from the bottom of the tank, for example, and blows out at the top, then an adjustable vent near the fan intake will let you bleed fresh air in. 

As soon as you plant the tank, and it starts operating, the viv will let you know if there is too much or too little circulation. (A rotten smell means there is too little).

With this set up, I can manage the condensation on the glass too. When guests are coming, and I want to show it off, I open the vent and allow ample fresh air to dry it off.

Lastly, a computer controlled system is really the only way to go with this type of vivarium. I use a Neptune Apex controller, with BML lights because you can set a variable dimmer to simulate sunset/sunrise, and control all those lights you have. Just a suggestion.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

wlrodman said:


> I set my vivariums up so I can adjust the fresh air intake... If your circulation system draws from the bottom of the tank, for example, and blows out at the top, then an adjustable vent near the fan intake will let you bleed fresh air in.
> 
> As soon as you plant the tank, and it starts operating, the viv will let you know if there is too much or too little circulation. (A rotten smell means there is too little).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input  While the computer controlled system sounds amazing, I have no experience with them and I'm not sure if that will be in the budget for this project. I'm going to try my luck with timers first to try and save a few hundred.

Hopefully, with the right circulation feed and return placement, I can keep the glass clear and have control over airflow.

I've had to go into work a bit more than planned, so progress has been a little slow but heres an update 

I'm experimenting with a kind of rock mosaic waterfall. It took a few days to silicone all the rocks in place because I'm fighting gravity. I was able to do two at a time, held in place with duct tape. I'd appreciate if anyone has any tips on filling the gaps and making the wood disappear. I'm sure there's plenty of reading on this, just haven't had the chance yet.

I cut in some pvc board for a stream, but I may not get to work on that for a while...

Since I couldn't really confirm that my real vines would work, I've committed to the pvc liana method. Yesterday I started bending pipes with a heat gun. I spent about six hours bending and that did a number on my forearms. Any pipe bending wisdom would be greatly appreciated. I don't know if there's an easier way, I can't fit them in the oven because I want them to span the height of the tank. I threw all the pipes I bent in just to get a feel for how many I'll need to make... Looks like I'm in for a few more days of bending 

When it comes to coating the vines, I'm planning on coating them with silicone, then covering them with coco fiber. Not much experience here, so any input would be awesome.

I've read a little about thinning silicone with toluene. Is this worth doing? Will this make it easier to paint the silicone onto the pipes, or is it better to just work with straight silicone? Does toluene impair the longevity of the silicone?

Thanks in advance


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## Ghostkerbomb (Aug 2, 2015)

Sir, as a fellow individual who has been stubborn enough to drag a 200lb uprooted tree stump through the woods, I tip my hat to you.

*tips hat and wanders off*


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## ikhanthequiet (Oct 21, 2015)

This is starting to look super cool! Let us know how the pvc vines go! I've seen people use rope and coat that in the titebond 3 and coco fiber mix but I haven't seen this way before. Looks likes it working tho

Sent from my SM-S902L using Tapatalk


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks ikhanthequiet  

I've made an amateur mistake... I had never used peat moss before and I just grabbed what was on the shelf at Home Depot. Stupidly, I jumped right into using it without reading the bag. I just read it and learned that it is Miracle Gro enriched with plant food

I've already coated about ten fake vines with it. Could it be possible to wash away the plant food/chemicals with water?

I'll probably be discarding these vines or trying to strip them and coat again with organic peat. It'll be about five hours of wasted effort, so if someone more knowledgeable than myself thinks I can get them frog safe by washing, I'd like to do so.

Thanks,
Jon


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## ikhanthequiet (Oct 21, 2015)

Oh that sucks. 

In my gardening experience the nutrients and chemicals eventually wash out of soil after excessive watering, so the same may hold true for your vines. But I wouldn't know how to test it to make sure it's safe..

How did you attach the peet? Silicone or tb3? If it was silicone it should be simple enough to strip them and start over, and just chalk the lost time up to a learnin experience.


Sent from my SM-S902L using Tapatalk


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks, I'm using silicone so I'll try stripping them down today. First I'm going out in search of peat, lol.

The miracle gro stuff came moist and I had to bake it for quite a while to get it dry, does the peat you guys use come dry or do you have to bake it?


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I finally got some peat without additives, 3.8 cubic feet for $14. I scrapped the miracle grow vines, I scored the crap out of them before coating and there was no way I was gonna get them cleaned up.

After a humble beginning with making vines, I've figured out an efficient system I'd like to share.

At first I was trying to coat the ropes with no tension on them, using a glove to work the silicone on by hand. It seemed to require excess silicone to get good coverage and it was super messy. 

I cut tapered wedges in a couple short lengths of 2x4 and screwed them to the ends of my chop saw table. I can put plenty of tension on the rope by pulling it into the wedges. Once a rope is secure in the wedges it's easy to paint the silicone on with a little 60 cent brush. I put a sheet of plastic down with a pile of peat. After coating the ropes, I drop them into the pile of peat and pat them down. I bet there's a better way out there but this is immensely more effective than what I did at first. I was able to coat this pile of vines in a couple of hours using 3 tubes of silicone.


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

awesome work, so how about you start cutting more rocks and sending them my way? that looks awesome!


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks Brandon! It looks like you're a little more than a stone's throw away, lol, otherwise I would. 

I still haven't decided on a method to fill the gaps between the rocks, maybe just glue as many smaller rocks as I can in there and silicone peat anywhere the plywood shows. Any other suggestions would be awesome


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Thanks ikhanthequiet
> 
> I've made an amateur mistake... I had never used peat moss before and I just grabbed what was on the shelf at Home Depot. Stupidly, I jumped right into using it without reading the bag. I just read it and learned that it is Miracle Gro enriched with plant food
> 
> ...


Hi Jon,
Great build! As for your problem with Miracle Grow, could you maybe put them in a tub full of water for 24 hours then test the water for nitrate, dump the water out, fill it again and repeat. Maybe if you get down to the test reading trace nitrate, you might be able to use the vines?

Mark


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks Mark, I ended up scrapping the vines to keep the build pure. Now that I've worked out a method, making vines is much easier and it wasn't such a loss to throw away the first ones.

I finished making vines yesterday and hung them all up last night. The next step will be to gs the tops of the vines and cover any visible wood above them. Guess I'll have to lay the whole thing on its back so the foam won't fall down...


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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

I use Toluene to thin out the silicone before spreading it on rope. I can make about 10 ft of vine using just a small amount of silicone. Get it a little runny but still thick enough to hold on to the rope and you are in business. This method does need extra time to off gas, but it stretches your silicone a lot further.
Looking forward to seeing more progress on this tank.


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## ikhanthequiet (Oct 21, 2015)

Holy vines batman. That is one dense jungle of vines.
Looks good! 
How many hours for all of those you figure? 



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## holmarie (Nov 30, 2015)

Amazing!! Keep us updated. So looking forward to the finished product


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks! I wasn't really keeping track of time working on the vines but I'd estimate it between 30 and 40 hours. I think I could cut that down to about 25 now that I've had some practice. 

I thought about thinning the silicone with toluene but I didn't wanna deal with anything toxic if I could get away with it. I don't work with gloves much and I'd imagine that stuff's nasty on the hands. Also, I tried to learn whether or not toluene changes the properties of the cured silicone, I was worried that it may impair the longevity of the bond. Couldn't find any info on that, still would like to know for future projects. With my system, I can coat about 50 feet of 1/4 inch manila rope with one tube of silicone and get thorough coverage, no transparent thin spots. I was happy to get that much with one tube, how do you think that compares to when thinned with toluene Chillplants? If I learn that it's a better method, I'd definitely try it on a future build.

I had a couple buddies over today to lay it on it's back, it went much more smoothly than I anticipated. I'd estimate that it weighs about 500 pounds at this point. 

Oh, did I fail to mention that I'm working in the downstairs of an 800 square foot house? lol


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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

It's been so long since I've made vines and covered a foam background that I can't remember exactly how much a tube lasted with toluene. More than anything, I remember that the thinner silicone was much easier to apply.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Sprayed and siliconed the back yesterday, then had some friends over to tip it on its side. Sprayed last night and carved this morning. 

One more tip to do the other side and then it's upright for the duration. I should have the background done by tomorrow night.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

I see you didn't go with the vines from the woods which is a good idea. I put grape and ivy trunks 1-2 inches across in my viv. the ivy sprouted for about a year but in under 2 years both had rotted away. I like the look of how you have done it. keep us posted.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks Skanderson, I was excited about the way the real vines looked but I'm sure I would've regretted using them.

I finally finished up with the background and got the viv in its upright position. Hope the fake vines look convincing enough when it's all planted out...


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

They will. Looks great!


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

After a long run of searches and phone calls, I finally got a 50lb bag of sodium bentonite. Unfortunately, it's not the product I was looking for as it has a large particle size about 1/2".

I haven't been able to find any info on the board for this bentonite product, has anyone used it??? I'd love to hear about anyone's experience using this.

I highly doubt I'll be able to use this to make clay substrate because I'm planning on following Doug's recipe in which most of the ingredients are dry mixed.

The particles are quite hard, I haven't tried yet but I imagine it would be difficult to grind into a powder.

As a test, I put some in a pot with water and soaked it for an hour. The particles absorb quite a bit of water and expand to about twice the original size. The clay becomes soft and it's actually pretty easy to make a smooth mix with a potato masher.

I want to try to make clay banks for the pond section and incorporate clay into the stream bed, to fill some of the space between rocks and build up some banks on the side to hide that white pvc. I might have to try a few different mixes before I find one that can withstand the flow of the stream. I couldn't find any info on here about using clay in streams or ponds, it seems many serious froggers don't invest much in water features. I know they're useless for darts, but I'm still new and the novelty hasn't worn of for me I did read some posts by Ed about a clay drip wall that held up to substantial flow. Sorry, I'm not sure how to link to a thread, still figuring out some parts of the site. I'd imagine a similar mix would work in a low flowing stream to help channel the water?

I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel, if I can get through my uncertainties using bentonite clay, the rest of the process won't be too bad. I can't wait to get a misting system going and get some plants in there!

In other news, I went out in the woods yesterday and scored another piece of wood that seems to fit in nicely  Here's a pic


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

jonjoyce346 said:


> After a long run of searches and phone calls, I finally got a 50lb bag of sodium bentonite. Unfortunately, it's not the product I was looking for as it has a large particle size about 1/2".
> 
> I haven't been able to find any info on the board for this bentonite product, has anyone used it??? I'd love to hear about anyone's experience using this.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't call them completely useless for darts. Many larger darts will transport their tads into water features and many have morphed tads into froglets without any real attention to them. The certainly do make a viv look pretty, at the same time though certainly make sure to keep the water clean (that also means not letting ammonia, nitrites, nitrates or frog hormones build up). If you want I can send you a pdf I have composed for a FB group that details the biochemistry that goes on and it has some tips on making things lower maintenance.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

For linking threads, find the thread you're looking for, copy the url, then in a reply post click the little hyperlink button at the top of the post, looks like a little planet earth with a chainlink in front of it. Then you just paste the link into the little window that pops up.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> I wouldn't call them completely useless for darts. Many larger darts will transport their tads into water features and many have morphed tads into froglets without any real attention to them. The certainly do make a viv look pretty, at the same time though certainly make sure to keep the water clean (that also means not letting ammonia, nitrites, nitrates or frog hormones build up). If you want I can send you a pdf I have composed for a FB group that details the biochemistry that goes on and it has some tips on making things lower maintenance.


Thanks Rush, I would definitely like to read through your pdf on water chemistry. This build actually feels more like a research project than a construction project, lol. I've been doing all the reading I have time for.

Thanks Jarteta, doesn't get much easier than that, lol

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/58189-best-background-material-dripwall.html

I've done what reading I can on the clay stream idea and I think I'll give it a go as soon as I can get my sump and pump plumbed in. It's not the easy route to take but it looks like a fun experiment. If it fails I can always do it with spray foam, I'd just rather keep it natural.

I went out in the woods and found a couple more roots yesterday, I still think I want a little more wood in there...

Jon


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Wow apperently I can't upload a PDF over 19.5kb That's a pretty pitifully small file size :/ PM me your email address and I will send it over if you don't mind.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Progress has been slow for the past couple weeks, I've been waiting on shipments. I cut in a false bottom this morning and fit a screen in on top today. 

I did a lot of thinking on the stream construction and decided that the clay probably wasn't a good idea. I just thought it would be really cool to be able to mold a natural looking bank. I had the idea of laying the false bottom screen across the stream and then just putting sand and rocks on top of the screen. It's quick and simple and I'm thinking it'll work well. I laid down the screen all in one piece and pushed it at least three inches up any walls it touches. I made damn sure there there's no openings around the false bottom where a frog could squeeze itself through and get trapped. 

I want to put a pvc vine through a hole in the ceiling for a feeding tube. Anyone do this before??? I really like the idea of being able to funnel ff's into the viv without opening anything. I'd like to use a 3/4" pipe with an open bottom so that flies and supplements can't get jammed up there. I'll have a cap on the top that I can pull off to feed.

Before I go ahead with this I just have one question, Could any pumilio get big enough to get stuck inside a 3/4" pvc pipe????


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Maybe, instead of having the PVC pipe have it's bottom flush with the top of the viv, build a small funnel that could fit on the end, and the FFs could be funneled down into a much smaller opening, maybe 1/4" or less, and then you don't have to worry about the frogs getting stuck in it. I couldn't tell you how to actually do it, but maybe just a suggestion? 

Also, I was wondering how you were going to soften the corner in the back right of the tank aesthetically?


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

jarteta97 said:


> Maybe, instead of having the PVC pipe have it's bottom flush with the top of the viv, build a small funnel that could fit on the end, and the FFs could be funneled down into a much smaller opening, maybe 1/4" or less, and then you don't have to worry about the frogs getting stuck in it. I couldn't tell you how to actually do it, but maybe just a suggestion?
> 
> Also, I was wondering how you were going to soften the corner in the back right of the tank aesthetically?


Thanks for the idea  I like the feeding tube idea because I can hide the opening behind other vines and the build up of supplements will end up out of sight. Also I think too much powder would build up on the viv floor if I dropped FFs in from the top, all my tanks have a white spot on the floor where I feed and I want to avoid that.

For the back right corner, I think I'll put a couple of big rocks on top of the waterfall to hide as much as possible. I'll plant around the rocks to finish it off. I think I'll just hide any remaining plywood with silicone and peat to keep it simple.

Jon


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Finally got the glass in place for a test run. I'm experimenting with a track idea that allows for a one piece viewing window. I know the one piece design comes with drawbacks but I really wanted to avoid the visual obstruction with overlapping glass doors. I can slide the glass out in either direction for access to anywhere in the tank. I'd be surprised if no one out there has done glass tracks like this, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I got a piece of 1/8" tempered glass at 73.5"x29.5". I cut the tracks out of 3/4" pvc trim board. The cuts were a challenge, by far the most difficult work I've done with a table saw. I had to put the tracks up and test them a couple times before getting the glass to slide smoothly. A 3/16" groove seems to work well, enough play for it to slide freely but not much wiggle room.

I still have to take the tracks down and silicone behind them so water can't seep through to the wood.

Also, I changed plans for the water section. I couldn't think of a good way to do the pond with the vines hanging into it, just would've been a waste of space. Of course I had to undo some work but I decided to cut the vines short and make more land area of the space under them. Huge pita cutting the vines while in place in the viv, but I was able to score another ~2 square feet of surface area to put in clay substrate. The water section is smaller than planned but it is a dart tank after all.

Just ordered a v4.0 Mist King starter system this morning, can't wait to see the new timer

Jon


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I've made some progress in the past couple weeks... I installed the MistKing last week. I got it from Mike from glassboxtropicals.com, he's been a huge help. Very easy to get in touch with and quick with shipments.

I finally have the sump up and running and the water feature is almost finished. I decided not to use any clay in the water feature, would've been too difficult. I just laid down some sand and aquarium substrate, then a bunch of rocks of various sizes.

The pond section ended up much smaller than expected but as a result, I was able to allow for much more substrate area. I think I'll be able to get 7 or 8 square feet of land area.

Next thing to do is lay down some turface and clay substrate. I made my first batch of substrate this week, about 5 pounds just to get a feel for the process. It's very strenuous  My hands were killing me after making 5 pounds of the stuff. I'm estimating I'll have to make about 25 more to cover everything... I'm thinking I'll set up shop in front of the tv and play all of the Rocky movies while I make substrate

Here are a few pics  The last one shows the overflow drain access. I just cut a hole in the egg crate and screen and I'll use a rock with a cut side as a "lid" that I could open in case of any clog or build up in the future. The false bottom screen extends down to the bottom of the pond and there are no holes or openings anywhere for a frog to get through the screen.

Hoping to mount some broms and get some moss growth going in the next week or two.

Jon


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## PartyFrog (Jan 8, 2016)

Reading this and seeing how good you are at building something so awesome from raw materials just made me mad because I know I would never be able to pull this off.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Wow, it's looking really good, you were right about the faux rocks for the corner piece, they really soften that hard edge, and it goes perfectly with the water feature. I really like the stream. You may have already mentioned it, but how did you actually build the stream bed? Get some moss in there, get it growing now because it's going to look great with this set up.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

jarteta97 said:


> Wow, it's looking really good, you were right about the faux rocks for the corner piece, they really soften that hard edge, and it goes perfectly with the water feature. I really like the stream. You may have already mentioned it, but how did you actually build the stream bed? Get some moss in there, get it growing now because it's going to look great with this set up.


Thanks  I didn't really go into detail about how I did the stream. I siliconed some pieces of pvc trim to the tilted floor to create a channel. Each set of pvc walls is level at the top, with a baffle on the downstream end at 1/2" below the level of the walls. That way, the water fills up to the top of the baffle then flows into the next section, like in a real stream, where small waterfalls occur at changes in elevation. If you go back to post #73, the first pic shows the channel with baffles. From there, I laid down the false bottom screen over the stream in one piece to ensure that that nothing bad could end up under the false bottom. I pushed the screen down to the plywood at the bottom of the stream to achieve some depth. Then I just laid down sand and rocks in an attempt for a natural look.

I'll get some moss in there soon, I'm waiting on a new credit card in the mail...

Actually no faux rocks in there, I cut all the bigger ones to reduce weight and create a flat surface for silicone.



PartyFrog said:


> Reading this and seeing how good you are at building something so awesome from raw materials just made me mad because I know I would never be able to pull this off.


Thanks! I appreciate the compliment but I'm just a kid with a lot of power tools Check out some of these threads, they have all been super inspiring for me. I can only hope to some day create something like any of these...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/57563-pics-my-new-constructed-vivarium.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...0-gallon-viv-build-plus-two-20-gal-verts.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/65988-peninsula.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-new-wooden-hill-stream-tank-constr-jrnl.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me.../133898-jims-display-paludarium-my-first.html


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I added two more pvc vines this morning, one to provide fresh air beneath the false bottom and one to feed.

the larger 1 1/2" one goes through a hole in the false bottom. The top of the vine goes through a hole in the ceiling where I'll plumb it into the 3" ductwork. I wanted to be able to circulate some fresh air under the false bottom and aerate the substrate. 

I decided to use a 1" pipe for the feeding tube idea. As of now I'm planning for a large group of Variabilis. I was thinking Pumilio for a bit but my experience definitely doesn't warrant that decision. Also, I'd have a heart attack if I were out of town and had a power outage So I figured even a larger thumbnail could venture up the tube and have plenty of space not to get stuck.

The the opening at the bottom of the vine is about 6 inches above the false bottom, hidden behind other vines. That way I can add plenty of leaf litter without covering the hole. I'll have a slip-fit cap on the top that I'll pull off and insert a funnel to feed.

The second pic shows the tops of the vines. The 3" pipe at the bottom right corner of the pic goes down to the substrate to circulate air low in the viv. A 3" duct line will run over the 1 1/2" pipe from the fan to the 3" line coming up through the ceiling.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Been taking it slow for the past couple weeks, waiting on shipments. I've been monitoring everything closely to try and spot any design flaws or threats to longevity before adding plants and covering things up. So far so good
I've had the water feature running for about two weeks now, water is staying clear and the stream is holding up to the flow.

I put in the spot lights and ductwork last week and finally got to test out the circulation system. I'm trying out a cheap 110v 80mm fan, it's quiet and fits the 3" ductwork perfectly. It moves a bit too much air so I'm hoping to set up a speed controller for it, otherwise I'd have to get a weaker fan. Here's a link to the fan.

Robot Check

I finally got test out the fogger and am pretty happy with how it works. I used a 3 head mist maker from thehouseofhydro.com. It's been a fantastic product for me, I actually ran this one every day on my other tanks for about a year, very reliable. Would definitely recommend House of Hydro for mist makers. I might want to size up to a 5 head fogger just to get a thicker fog effect.

One thing I learned that would be useful in planning an internal fogger like this is that the float is an unnecessary waste of space. The float keeps the misting discs at the right depth when the water level changes. If the tank has a sump and the water level is constant, the fogger can be fixed permanently with the disks about 1/2" under water. Not knowing this, I made the reservoir at the top of the waterfall large enough to accommodate the float, almost two gallons. Now I'm wishing all that water didn't have to drain back into the sump in the event of a power outage.

I've made up about thirty pounds of clay substrate via Doug's recipe in the Clay Substrate How To thread. I'll be putting it into the viv this week. Still not sure how much I'll need but thirty pounds has to be enough. Hopefully I'll have some left over to put in my other tanks.

Here are a few pics, the second one shows a test of the fogger with the fan circulating.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I put in my substrate today. I ended up using about 25 pounds of it, leaving enough behind for my other tanks.

My first brom shipment came in this week and I tested out the drill mount method, works great! Not sure if the placement is final but I'm getting a feel for how I want to plant the branches.

Jon


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## ikhanthequiet (Oct 21, 2015)

This gets cooler with every new post

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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I drove down to NEHERP in Meriden Connecticut last Thursday and met Mike, Jessica, and Liz in person for the first time. It was super cool to talk to them and see the facility. They run an awesome business and have been great to me since I first got into the hobby. Thanks for the supplies Check out neherpetoculture.com if you haven't already.

I picked up all the leaf litter I could (5 gallons) along with some NEHERP moss and a fresh springtail culture for the build. They're shipping me another 5 gallons of leaf litter when they get it in. 

With 5 gallons, I was able to get about two to four leaves thick in the back but I ran out by the time it was one leaf thick in the front. I think another 5 gallons will be a good start. I did not boil the leaves, hoping to maximize longevity. I plan to CO2 bomb the viv once all the plants are in, even if I don't see any hitchhikers. I'll seed with springtails to keep things fresh for now, then reseed with springs and isos after bombing.

I blended up the moss with RO water, no sphagnum, buttermilk or beer. I want to see what growth I can get just by tweaking the misting and fogging. I'm in no rush for moss to take over, I enjoy seeing the wood and rocks. The 12"x12" square of moss blended up into a 16oz shake, most of which I painted onto the wood and rocks, trying to jam as much as possible into the bark and pores.

When I run the fogger with no circulation, the bottom half of the viv fills up with dense fog, leaving the top half clear. I'm going to try this once or twice a day for a couple hours hoping to satisfy the moss while not overwatering the broms.

I cut some holes in the ductwork aimed down at the florescent fixture, they do a great job of cooling it off. The holes reduced airflow in the viv to where I want it while bleeding in some fresh air. It takes about a half an hour for the glass to clear up after fogging and turning on the air.

I'm headed to south from the 2nd until the 14th to see some friends and family. I was happy to get the system operational before my trip, hoping some moss will start establishing while I'm gone. 

Here're a couple pics, sorry about the glare. Anyone following this already knows my photography sucks. I'll have a friend take some quality pics when I'm a little further along

Jon


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## emallard25 (Jun 28, 2012)

Wow! That's one of the best hardscapes I've seen. Great job!


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## Willster9114 (Jan 23, 2015)

Definitely following along on this one!


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Quick update, I just got back from Florida and Texas and haven't made any real progress since the last update. Still waiting on leaf litter...

I picked up a twelve outlet power supply before I left and set up timers for each light, the misting system, the fan and the fogger. I've been fine tuning the timers for the past few days and I think I have schedule that'll work. I'm running the fogger for an hour and a half three times a day and circulating the air whenever the fogger is off. This is keeping the bottom of the viv nice and wet for the moss while still allowing the brom leaves to dry out a couple times a day.

All the broms I put in have shown some growth and are acclimating really well. To my surprise, I'm already seeing specs of moss growth all over the wood and rocks at the bottom of the tank!

No new plants yet, but I placed an order yesterday for a couple orchids and some Marcgravia.

Jon


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

It was warm today so I got to break out the power tools. I cut in a back wall to the space below the tank using 3/4" plywood. Cut a 6" hole in the back to access the outlet behind the viv. I ran all the wiring from the hood through the hole and to the power supply. 

I cut in a shelf with some leftover plywood and mounted the power supply above the shelf. I'm taking a simple approach to the shelving, really want to have this done before my work season starts up next month. The shelf is supported by stainless steel L brackets and can be taken out or height adjusted easily.

I also pieced together some 1 1/2 PVC on top of the misting reservoir to make filling easier.

Jon


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Not enough timers.... needs more cowbell also 


Nah looks good


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## ruairidh_ (Feb 9, 2016)

You said that the fab was a bit too powerful, if you put a mesh in front of the fan, apparently that reduces the airflow a little 

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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

ruairidh_ said:


> You said that the fab was a bit too powerful, if you put a mesh in front of the fan, apparently that reduces the airflow a little
> 
> Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk


Thanks, I put screens over some spots in the ductwork and cut some holes in the lines as mentioned earlier in the thread. The system's working great now, the airflow is right where I want it, its ff proof, and the light fixture is cooled by the holes in the ductwork.

For the past few days I've been working on the exterior. I cut a face and doors for the stand out of plywood, and have been touching up all the screw holes and seams with wood filler. I'm super anxious to finish cause I'll be neck deep in work by the end of march... Once I'm done touching up and mounting the doors, I'll just have to sand and paint it.

Also added a few more plants last week from glassboxtropicals.com, Masdevallia erinaceae, Dryadella cristata, Epidendrum gnomus, Microgramma vacciniifolia, and Marcgravia rectiflora. My first time with all of them, they came in looking great and most of them still do, but the marcgravia might not make it... They're incredibly fragile and I think I put them in too wet of a spot in the tank. I moved them all to a drier spot once I saw they were drooping but I don't know if they'll come back... I would really like to get a lot of marcgravia established in the tank but it's not cheap and I haven't figured out how to make it happy yet. If anyone has a good amount of it you'd like to sell, feel free to send me a pm.

I finally got a chance to put some leftover clay substrate into my R. amazonica tank! I dug out all the abg in that was in the front half and left the back undisturbed for the frogs.

Jon


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## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

Beutiful 

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## Lake (Jan 31, 2015)

Looking good!


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## Frogsarefun (Nov 25, 2015)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Thanks, I put screens over some spots in the ductwork and cut some holes in the lines as mentioned earlier in the thread. The system's working great now, the airflow is right where I want it, its ff proof, and the light fixture is cooled by the holes in the ductwork.
> 
> For the past few days I've been working on the exterior. I cut a face and doors for the stand out of plywood, and have been touching up all the screw holes and seams with wood filler. I'm super anxious to finish cause I'll be neck deep in work by the end of march... Once I'm done touching up and mounting the doors, I'll just have to sand and paint it.
> 
> ...


Wondering what false bottom medium you are using, seen in 5th photo?


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

It's just the standard egg crate method with fiberglass screen on top. The fifth picture shows the clay substrate before I put leaf litter on top.

Jon


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

This is going to look amazing! There is so much potential with that size and the way you designed the hardscape. Great job!


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

JoshsFrogsPlants said:


> This is going to look amazing! There is so much potential with that size and the way you designed the hardscape. Great job!


Thanks!!! I'd love to hear some plant suggestions, any nice orchids that like to be wet all the time? The branch at the bottom right is always wet and I'd like to find some plants that will thrive on it.

I'd also like to get my hands on another moss species or two. I'm very happy with the Neherp moss and it's getting off to a great start, just want to spice it up a bit... I'd like to find something slow growing that won't mask the hardscape too quickly.

Jon


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Thanks!!! I'd love to hear some plant suggestions, any nice orchids that like to be wet all the time? The branch at the bottom right is always wet and I'd like to find some plants that will thrive on it.
> 
> I'd also like to get my hands on another moss species or two. I'm very happy with the Neherp moss and it's getting off to a great start, just want to spice it up a bit... I'd like to find something slow growing that won't mask the hardscape too quickly.
> 
> Jon


Unfortunately the only orchids we offer are Vanilla planifolia, and they do well in our customers' vivariums. I know many members here can offer a much wider variety of more exotic orchids though.

As for slow growing plants for your background that won't go too crazy, we find that Ficus pumila 'Quercifolia', Ficus pumila 'Minima' and Ficus punctata 'Panama' are all much slower growing than their commonly used and larger leaved relative Ficus pumila 'Creeping Fig'. There are many other options too, but these ones came to mind and are commonly used/easy to grow.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

JoshsFrogsPlants said:


> Unfortunately the only orchids we offer are Vanilla planifolia, and they do well in our customers' vivariums. I know many members here can offer a much wider variety of more exotic orchids though.
> 
> As for slow growing plants for your background that won't go too crazy, we find that Ficus pumila 'Quercifolia', Ficus pumila 'Minima' and Ficus punctata 'Panama' are all much slower growing than their commonly used and larger leaved relative Ficus pumila 'Creeping Fig'. There are many other options too, but these ones came to mind and are commonly used/easy to grow.


Thanks, I still haven't had a chance to order any vines/trailing plants. I'm really taking my time planting this because my schedule is getting now that the weather is turning. Also I want to be 100% satisfied with any choices because I don't want to have to pull any root systems out of the clay substrate down the road. I really like Solanum evolvulifolium, I think I want to try a bunch of it out.

I'm still working on the exterior, finishing up with the sanding. I mounted the doors and just need to do a little bit more touch up before painting.

Until today, I had a bunch of aquarium substrate in the stream which I realized I didn't like as soon as I finished putting in... I thought it was going to be a huge pita to remove it, so I left it for a while. I discovered something amazing today that I'm sure many of you already know A wet/dry vac with the right amount of power can suck out the undesirables without damaging anything in the viv. I held a piece of half inch plastic tubing up to the end of my shop vac hose and tried sucking the substrate out of the stream. It worked beautifully, like a mini dredge pump! I got all the ugly, bright colored rocks out of there in no time, while leaving everything else undisturbed.

I'm expecting a bunch of new orchids in the next week, can't wait to mount them!

Jon


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Just added Barbosella prorepens, Dryadella elata, Dryadella simula, Encyclia polybulbon, and Pleurothallis acestrophylla. Also put in some long awaited leaf litter.

I set up a new fogger, I messed up and fried the old one. I was using a three disc mist maker from thehouseofhydro.com, I just got their five disc model this week and it works great!

Jon


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## Mohlerbear (Feb 20, 2014)

The house of hydro is badass. I have a 3 disc for my big build I'm starting and a five disc in my greenhouse. Nice to see them getting some dart Frogger/Viv builder love. 


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Check it out! After countless hours of patching and sanding in the past month, the work end of this project is DONE. As of yesterday, I have reclaimed my living room It felt pretty damn good to put ALL the tools AWAY and convert the workshop back into living space.

I must admit I was a little overwhelmed towards the end of the project, I put full steam into the work and didn't take any progress pics. NOTHING was easy for me... I'm actually very pleased with the results on the exterior, I kinda envisioned it that way from the start but wasn't sure that I could pull off a clean look.

I can't believe how well the glass track design is working, I put some petroleum jelly in the groove and now it slides easier than the doors on my smaller tanks!

I guess now I'll slowly siphon off the rest of my bank account for plants, maybe even frogs some day

Jon


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## moore40 (Jan 29, 2008)

...wow....


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## austin (Dec 6, 2013)

Wow is right, you really finished that off nicely! Love the cabinet!


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## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

That is awesome!

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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Nicely done sir. Nicely done.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks!

On another note, it appears I am culturing some blue cheese in the tank... Looks different from any mold I've had in a viv so far. Anyone recognize it? It's spreading pretty quickly but seems to avoid well lit areas. It's not bothering me yet but I'd like to get rid of it before it becomes an issue. Maybe springtails will take care of it but just haven't found it yet? I tried to put a bunch directly on the mold but it's tough to get enough to stay there. I have been building the springtail population since I put in the substrate, but there are still a bunch of unpopulated areas. Any wisdom on this mold would be appreciated.

I ordered a five pound CO2 tank a couple days ago and I'll be bombing the crap out of this thing as soon as it comes in. I have a small population of what look like fungus gnats, probably came in on the centerpiece, I baked the crap out of all the other wood, that piece was just too big and I didn't want to cut it. I ran a few searches on the effect of CO2 on mold and came up empty handed. Will a CO2 bomb do anything to the mold?

Thanks,
Jon


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## jpg (Jan 3, 2009)

. Wow . That build came out great ! Some vines would work killer in there . Solanum sp. Columbia would grow well in there . A couple large show pieces like Philodendron , Alocasia , Syngonium species for instance ! 

Great job !


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## frogtodd (Dec 25, 2014)

Very nice. Love the vines!


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## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

I wouldn't think that CO2 bombing would do anything to mold, but I'm not sure. As for the type, I have seen it a lot in the woods lately, and I would assume that it is non harmful. Have the springs and other microfauna gone after it yet? Be sure to keep us updated!

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## ruairidh_ (Feb 9, 2016)

Could the mould be simply due to the fact the wood is in a humid and hot environment? 

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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Fingolfin said:


> I wouldn't think that CO2 bombing would do anything to mold, but I'm not sure. As for the type, I have seen it a lot in the woods lately, and I would assume that it is non harmful. Have the springs and other microfauna gone after it yet? Be sure to keep us updated!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


Still can't see any springs on it but I'm not too worried about it, it hasn't encroached on my moss yet...

Still no CO2 tank, thought Prime would have it here by now. The fly population doesn't seem to be increasing, they're such weak fliers that most of them get sucked into the ductwork when the fan's on.

Jon


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Just got my CO2 tank in, let the extermination begin!!!

Tanks size may be overkill but I wanted to be able to do this a bunch of times without the inconvenience of refilling

I just taped off the sides of the glass and put the tank on top of the viv with a hose into the viv. I cracked the valve to allow a very slow flow of CO2 into the viv.

I've never done this before, any advice on how long I should bomb for? Or how much CO2 it should take to fill the viv?

Thanks,
Jon


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

I think I'm getting the hang of the CO2 bomb. I released the entire 5lb tank into the viv and left it for 24 hours before turning on the mister and air circulation. Was worried that the air movement created by the Mistking might drive some CO2 out through the top of the tank. I'm glad I got the five pound tank, I learned that it was just barely enough to fill the viv. I read on a conversion chart that a pound of CO2 has a volume of 8.741 cubic feet, I'm thinking at normal pressure? If so, the five pound tank should fill just over 43 cubic feet when released. Universal Industrial Gases, Inc. ... CO2 Unit Conversion (gas, liguid, solid) It's tough for me to estimate the volume needed to fill the viv because I can't determine what percentage of the space is taken up by the hardscape and the raised floor under the false bottom. My rough estimate is in the mid to high 30's, probably not over 40 cubic feet.

After bombing once, there wasn't much sign of life but I did see more mites crawl up onto the glass so I refilled the CO2 tank and bombed again three days later. The viv has been running for about 24 hours since bombing and there's no sign of life yet... I'm thinking there may still be some live eggs in there and I 'm prepared to keep bombing until everything's hatched.

I didn't notice any benefit to the plants from bombing but everything's starting to take hold except the Marcgravia

Jon


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Well… I’ve got nemerteans. 
I’ve done three 24 hour bombings, each about a week apart. I found four of them so far, to my surprise they crawled up on the glass right after bombings, two alive, two dead. This leads me to believe that the bombing _can_ kill them but a 24 hour period is too short to suffocate them all. I don’t know if I’m finding adults, but the ones I’ve found have been about 4 mm in length.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/107529-nemerteans-not-id-question.html 

I think it's time to stop bombing and get a clean up crew in there. I read in this thread that orange isopods will eat nemerteans and that Josh Moore successfully cleansed a tank of them by introducing them. I’m going to give it a try, I just ordered a couple of cultures and will try to establish a decent population in the tank. I’m thinking I won’t add springtails for a few months, they’re just a food source for the nemerteans. I know they can survive starvation for quite a while, but if I can get some isos to start eating them while the population is low, I might be able to eliminate them. 

On another note, it's been really fun trying to fine tune the climatic conditions and watching the first couple months of growth. The airflow system is working perfectly, orchids are starting off nicely, some have already thrown a good bit of new growth. With ten nozzles, I'm just getting enough coverage. I was making slight adjustments to the nozzles and timers every day, now I finally have a schedule that's kicking ass. The moss is growing in better than I could have imagined!!! Seeing growth even in the darker parts of the tank.

Jon


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Any updated pics? I love this one!


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

No new pics for now, haven't added any new plants since the last update. I do have couple of plant orders pending, just waiting on some better shipping weather. Joyce Construction is back in full swing for another season, so I haven't really been able to focus on the tank. 

Now that the climate is consistent in the tank I'm becoming familiar with all the different microclimates. I'll be more comfortable ordering plants when I know the growing conditions all over the tank.

Placed an order yesterday on some giant orange isos to hopefully eat any nemerteans left in the tank.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Check it out! My mom did a painting to go next to the tank. She doesn't know much about frogs but she's done plenty of rainforest paintings. I showed her some Basti's pictures and here's what she came up with. Super excited about how it came out!

As for the tank, I haven't had time to do anything in a while. Still have a lot of planting to do but I think I'll just let it be while I get through my busy season.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Moss is growing in nicely. I introduced some giant orange isos a few weeks ago and I'm just starting to see them crawling around. The nemerteans, if that's what they are, don't seem to be multiplying, haven't seen any in the past week. The springtail population is booming, no more mold blooms, everything smells nice and fresh.


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## baskis (Jun 7, 2015)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Moss is growing in nicely. I introduced some giant orange isos a few weeks ago and I'm just starting to see them crawling around. The nemerteans, if that's what they are, don't seem to be multiplying, haven't seen any in the past week. The springtail population is booming, no more mold blooms, everything smells nice and fresh.


Is that moss you purchased or just randomly occurring? Any tips for getting it to flourish like that? The whole tank is marvelous by the way, really inspiring.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

baskis said:


> Is that moss you purchased or just randomly occurring? Any tips for getting it to flourish like that? The whole tank is marvelous by the way, really inspiring.


Thanks! The moss is from NEHERP NEHERP - Terrarium Suitable Moss

I just got one 12" portion of it and put it through a blender with about two cups of water. Painted it onto all the wood and rocks about three months ago. 

Just give it plenty of light and don't let it dry out, airflow seems to help too.


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## baskis (Jun 7, 2015)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Thanks! The moss is from NEHERP NEHERP - Terrarium Suitable Moss
> 
> I just got one 12" portion of it and put it through a blender with about two cups of water. Painted it onto all the wood and rocks about three months ago.
> 
> Just give it plenty of light and don't let it dry out, airflow seems to help too.


Okay awesome! Thank you so much. I love NEHerp and was looking at their moss so its good to see it grows nicely!


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## Tivaj (Dec 30, 2015)

Very nice indeed....what kind of moss is that?
Really great work

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## Tivaj (Dec 30, 2015)

Sorry...i should've gone through the previous post

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## daisymaisy01 (May 19, 2015)

Love the painting! (And actually the whole Viv too)


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Look who decided to show up... Shot up quick, I saw it for the first time today with about a four inch stalk.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Still no time to order plants but here are a few pics


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## emallard25 (Jun 28, 2012)

Looks incredible. True quality work.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

Just some moss... Still no new plants.

Jon


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## emallard25 (Jun 28, 2012)

Sorry for being lazy, but I couldn't find the answer. What moss mix is that? It looks amazing. Please get this guy finished because it's got alot of potential.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

emallard25 said:


> Sorry for being lazy, but I couldn't find the answer. What moss mix is that? It looks amazing. Please get this guy finished because it's got alot of potential.


Thanks! It's just NEHERP moss, I blended up one 12" square of it with about two cups of water and painted it onto all of the rocks and wood. I did add a small amount of a Hawaiian moss(no ID) from Mike at glassboxtropicals.com but I don't think any of it has really taken off yet.

I've been anxious to plant it out but I didn't want to order plants during my busy season. Things are finally slowing down for me and I'm almost ready to make some bigger plant orders.

Jon


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## emallard25 (Jun 28, 2012)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Thanks! It's just NEHERP moss, I blended up one 12" square of it with about two cups of water and painted it onto all of the rocks and wood. I did add a small amount of a Hawaiian moss(no ID) from Mike at glassboxtropicals.com but I don't think any of it has really taken off yet.
> 
> I've been anxious to plant it out but I didn't want to order plants during my busy season. Things are finally slowing down for me and I'm almost ready to make some bigger plant orders.
> 
> Jon


Funny enough, I have a 12x12 portion of NeHerp moss sitting under some t5's at the moment. Haven't had time to use it yet. Do you think I would get better results blending it up like you did? Oh BTW, if you are ever looking for plant cuttings, let me know. I have a few nice pieces I could get rid of.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

emallard25 said:


> Funny enough, I have a 12x12 portion of NeHerp moss sitting under some t5's at the moment. Haven't had time to use it yet. Do you think I would get better results blending it up like you did? Oh BTW, if you are ever looking for plant cuttings, let me know. I have a few nice pieces I could get rid of.


Pm sent. I've placed clumps of NEHERP moss in vivs in the past and it's done really well but the growth pattern was completely different for me when I blended it. I blended the crap out of it and made a pretty wet mix, it basically looked like brown water with dark green/brown algae in it. Initially, painting the mixture onto the hardscape didn't change the look of things much, just a small amount of pulp was visible. After a couple of weeks, I could see tiny, bright green specs all over the wettest parts of the hardscape. It has been almost five months since I applied the moss and it shows no signs of slowing down. To answer your question, I would recommend this method for the moss. It was really cool to get to see the moss grow in from scratch.

Jon


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## MasterT (Jun 7, 2016)

I must first say, I need this in my life. 

GOOD FRICKEN JOB

I am just starting my first viv and this is jaw dropping. So amazing.

Okay, question though, the majority of your vines you made, but the moss seems to grow on them pretty well. I do not know much about moss, but if I just make my own roots/wood/ and such out of pvc and make sure to cover in peat or coco, will moss really just grow on them? Obviousley it will take some practice but I thought they needed the natural wood.

Man I love this build.. Amazing


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

MasterT said:


> I must first say, I need this in my life.
> 
> GOOD FRICKEN JOB
> 
> ...


Thanks! The moss in the pics is all growing on the wood and rocks. Moss actually doesn't seem to grow very well on the fake vines, never really expected it to. It is growing in slowly in some spots on the background but I don't think it will ever grow in thick. Maybe the peat is too acidic?

Jon


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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

I have the same problem with my vines. I tried a few times and gave up.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

jonjoyce346 said:


> Thanks!
> Maybe springtails will take care of it
> Jon


I noticed with your screen you got on the egg crate you're gonna lose a mass amount of sprintails and other microfauna. I used to use it and the vivs I pulled apart had a crap ton of springs and dwarf whites stuck in the drainage layer floating around a lot of them were dead and those who weren't had no way back. I would also see them in the drainage water when I drained the tank.
I know you say the springs are booming but I but they are booming down below as well lol 
I use Duck A/C filter foam now so I don't lose microfauna. 
Just a heads up. 

Viv looks great man good job.
I myself won't use NEHERP's moss anymore it get's too long and it was choking out my orchids.


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## jonjoyce346 (Oct 15, 2014)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I noticed with your screen you got on the egg crate you're gonna lose a mass amount of sprintails and other microfauna. I used to use it and the vivs I pulled apart had a crap ton of springs and dwarf whites stuck in the drainage layer floating around a lot of them were dead and those who weren't had no way back. I would also see them in the drainage water when I drained the tank.
> I know you say the springs are booming but I but they are booming down below as well lol
> I use Duck A/C filter foam now so I don't lose microfauna.
> Just a heads up.
> ...


Thanks for the tip! I'll keep it in mind if I ever find the time for another build or if I redo the substrate on this one. 

The springtail population is still booming and I'm not seeing many of those little worms I mentioned a few months back. I thought they were nemerteans but whatever they are, they don't seem affect the springtail population. I threw in some giant orange isos a few months ago, they may be helping with the worms but it's hard to say since I rarely see them.

As far as springs under the drainage layer go, wouldn't they help to keep things fresh down there?

Good point on the NEHERP moss, I've already pulled it off of some orchids but I do like the way it looks.

Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to do anything with the tank and work shows no signs of slowing down. Other than some new growth, things look the same as the last pics.

As soon as the weather cools off I'm going to splurge on plants then frogs soon after...


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