# Practice Root System Backgrounds



## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

This weekend I began making practice removable background root systems, very similar to the method posted by Raf here on Dendroboards. The only difference is my mixture. I’m using Titebond III Ultimate Wood glue, mixed with very finely ground peat moss. 

Here is my very 1st trail attempt. I used electrical wiring at first, but ended up cutting it out since the mixture will not adhere to it. I also unknowingly added the rope before coating it in the mixture. That was a mistake, and it works much better to dip it in a bowl of mixture, then to drape it on top of the main root structure once it has been coated.



















Here is my 2nd attempt. I will be putting more detail on this one, and have though out the design a lot better. I cut out a 17x23” piece of exo-terra foam as the backboard. Hopefully it will be easy enough to slide in and out of an enclosure. I used the large black pvc as the main trunk frame, then used hot glue to attach the remaining ½” waterline piping. 









Also before adding the thin tubing lines, I made sure to roughen the surface. The Titebond slurry was having difficulty sticking to the tubing on my first attempt.










Then I hot glued the lines in place. 




























1st coating of expanding foam before carving....Once cured, be sure to remove/roughen up the skin. The mixture will adhere 100 times better this way. I also smeared some foam onto the thinner tubing, and made sure to fill the ends of the tubes.










That’s all for now!


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## laylow (Apr 6, 2009)

Sounds like loads of fun! keep us posted!!


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

keep it up! You sure have added a lot to this forum in the short time you've been here!


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## Raf (Feb 20, 2010)

This gonna turn out great!
Nice work.

Tip: I found a lot of reference on the internet. Collect as much pics you can find.
http://terracom.tk Click on Jungle 1...2... and the vivs on the site are great.
http://www.wildborneo.com.my/
Shutterstock
...


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Nice work.

Looking forward to seeing more.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Grimm, what's the mix you are using?


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## crank68516 (Aug 30, 2010)

What kind of small tubing it that? It looks almost like a white PEX but I haven't seen it (or perhaps noticed it) in the the stores. I want to do something like that in a 10g vert for some Imi's


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

laylow said:


> Sounds like loads of fun! keep us posted!!


It is quite fun. Messy, but fun nontheless 



chinoanoah said:


> keep it up! You sure have added a lot to this forum in the short time you've been here!


Thanks buddy. I appreaciate that!



Raf said:


> This gonna turn out great!
> Nice work.
> 
> Tip: I found a lot of reference on the internet. Collect as much pics you can find.
> ...


Nice link Raf. Funny enough, if you look at the center picture of "jungle 2", that is what I kinda have pictured in my mind, with additional small vines added ontop. In august I took a trip down to mexico, and came back up with a load of insprirational jungle pictures of my own. No better way to learn then from mother nature herself!



frogfreak said:


> Nice work.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing more.


Thanks man. I started carving a bit tonight, then I filled in some of the missed gaps with more GS. Id like to finish coating the 1st trial tonight, but I'm running out of time. 



Mitch said:


> Grimm, what's the mix you are using?


Im using Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue, mixed with peat moss that I blended in my magic bullet to make extra fine. On the final coat, I plan on dusting the wet mixture with additional peat moss.



crank68516 said:


> What kind of small tubing it that? It looks almost like a white PEX but I haven't seen it (or perhaps noticed it) in the the stores. I want to do something like that in a 10g vert for some Imi's


I believe it is 1/2" pex. I design modular buildings for a living, so I just walked down to the shop and got the boys to scroung up any extra material they could spare me  I'll take any and everything if its free!


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I can't wait to see how this turns out.


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## Arizona Tropicals (Feb 15, 2010)

Looks great so far! I think these tanks will turn out amazing, nice job!


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Arizona Tropicals said:


> Looks great so far! I think these tanks will turn out amazing, nice job!


Im actually going to be selling these backgrounds locally so you wont get to see them in a planted tank. These first 2 will be to showcase my work and to try and perfect the technique. Then I will be taking custom sizes and design preferences for people who are interested. A lot of people in my area are into reptiles, and they dont really have the know-how and patience to try and build custom backgrounds. The entire point of me building these is to broaden my skills for my next project, help the people around me, and to help with funding. Im spending thousands of dollars on my next enclosure, and as far as I can tell my current autocad drawing of the tank is one of a kind


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## crank68516 (Aug 30, 2010)

Everything looks awesome you will have to keep up updated with your progress and the details of how you created it.


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## dherp (Aug 6, 2010)

looks great grimm raf's root system inspired me also! got a free 55 gal im looking to build out so ill be waiting on your finished project to help me along. so keep posting!


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Im thinking about copying as well XD When I bought my house, one of the coolest things is an aquarium built into the wall in the basement. It is at the bottom landing right next to the basement door. The tank itself is in the laundry room, conveniently next to both a drain and water pipes. The tank there now is i believe a 38 gallon, but there is room for me to put either a 55 or a 75 in its place. Ever since I saw Raf's tank ive wanted to move the cichlids somewhere else. Seeing Grimm do the same type tutorial just might make that happen.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

So I did a little work this past week on both pieces. I finished coating the 1st; however I will be adding additional thin roots to increase the detail. I purchased some thin hemp, and a couple other spools of string to test which material has the best coverage after a single coating. Once I determine the best option, I’ll let you guys in on the secret.

I designed it to fit inside a 10 gallon tank. It doesn’t fit  hahahaha










Here is my mixture before I actually mixed it. I added water to the peat until it reached its maximum absorption point. If you squeeze the peat, it should ring a ton of water out. I added glue until I got a thin milky layer on the surface of the mixture. 


















Here is the 2nd piece after the first coat. The GS has a firm grasp to the tubing, however the mixture slides right off. On all the carved GS sections, it became covered after a single coat and it does not crack once cured. For my next piece, I will be using the tubing as the main support, and covering it all in a thick layer of GS for me to carve, leaving no uncovered tubing sections.


















I’ll try and hammer the rest of the work out this weekend.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for posting this.

That's the titebond glue right?


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

what was the point in wetting the peat first?


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> Thanks for posting this.
> 
> That's the titebond glue right?


Yes thats it, before I mixed it into the peat.



Brotherly Monkey said:


> what was the point in wetting the peat first?


I was using bone dry peat. And even if the peat was moist, without it being fully saturated with water, it would have taken 4 times the amount of glue to make it wet enough to spread over the roots. I did an 18x18x24 exo-terra tank a while back with this same mixture. And I used about 3.5 bottles to cover the background since I didnt saturate the peat. So far I havent even used 1 bottle for both of these backgrounds yet by using the water. It is still just as rock hard once cured though.


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## crank68516 (Aug 30, 2010)

So, today I was walking around petsmart just waste a little bit of time and decided to look at fish decor and maybe find something fun a quirky to put in my current tank but I found this....

Top Fin® Grey Tree Root Ornaments - Décor - Fish - PetSmart

One of the sizes would fit perfectly in the base of a 10g vert but was rather short (only 8inches or so). So what I was thinking is to build a trunk out of PVC and gs then cover both the premade root and my trunk in a some sort of peat mixture and tie it into some sort of background. What are you guys thoughts?


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I bought 3 different types of thread....The cotton worked the best by far! The jute worked quite well also.










Finished!


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Wow these turned out great.


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## ruthieb (Oct 18, 2010)

wow...I really, really love the way this is turning out!


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Wow those backgrounds look good! I keep saying im gonna make some fake wood but i'm too busy making vivs for people 

I really want to give it a try!


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

VERY COOL. I cant wait tell I have time to try this method out... Looked great in Raf' viv, so yeah I'm guessing a lot of us all have this idea in our head lol. Great job, and thanks for the post.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks guys. Gotta give all the credit to Raf. Im a mere copycat.

Just wondering, what would you guys be willing to pay for something like this, taking into concideration all the time and materials?


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## Bokfan1 (Oct 17, 2010)

How do these roots hold up underwater? Does it tend to fall apart when constantly submerged? I was thinking of putting some in a paludarium.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I havent submerged these backgrounds at all. However, I have used this background mixture in a viv a while back. I filled the tank with 4-5" of water, and turned on the stream for about 7 days. After the test run, I drained the water and the background was still rock hard. The lable of the glue says that is should not be used constantly submerged, so I would be cautious. It is completely waterproof though, so I'm not sure why they have that noted.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Grimm, you worried about that natural fiber rope breaking down at all?


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## Crispy0 (Aug 13, 2010)

do you think this method could be used but with clay instead of your mixture?


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## the_deeb (Apr 21, 2008)

Nice work Grimm - those look really good. I found that cotton rope worked best with my Drylok vines as well (it soaks up the paint much better than nylon). I wouldn't worry too much about the natural fibre breaking down because the coating should, in theory, be sealing it and providing a water barrier. 

I'm not sure how well this would work under long-term submergence. I haven't use this method exactly, but I did accidentally spill some Titebond III onto the inside of my tank during the construction process, and after it had been submerged for a while it got a little spongy and was easily torn off. Might be ok as long as you don't have strong flow, or fish picking at it. For full submergence I think trying this method with marine epoxy instead of Titebond would work best.

As long as you don't have too much water flow, I think this would work fine with clay.


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## noprince (Feb 12, 2010)

The cotton will rot.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

noprince said:


> The cotton will rot.


You seem confident in this....Have you used cotton before in a viv? Have you used it completely covered in glue? Im not to worried about it since these will most likely be used in reptile enclosures. Plus Im fairly certain that with the amount of glue used in the mixture, the cotton wont even come into contact with heavy moisture.

Im actually in the middle of making a deal with a local aquarium store. Hopefully within the next few weeks I'll have a deal to make backgrounds for every one of their tanks. I could be posting a lot more of my work soon, and I have some cool ideas left in the bag also!


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## Raf (Feb 20, 2010)

I agree with noprince. The cotton will rot.
You can't complete seal the cotton with the glue. If you use it in reptile enclosures it's not that bad but I wouldn't use it for a dartfrog vivarium.

The root systems look good!


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

The cotton will however, have absorbed the glue during the construction. I would bet that it even became saturated in it before the glue hardened, forming an internal skeleton of sorts. The parts that have minute exposure to the atmosphere will rot away, I do agree with that, but the structure itself will likely remain long term. But that internal skeleton of the rope coupled with the exoskeleton of the glue/organic mix should hold up in my opinion.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Wondering if you had any updates on this


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Well I sold the nicer looking large one, and still am trying to sell the small one. 

These were just for practice, so I wasnt planning on putting them inside tanks or anything. Id really like to find an additive that can be added to make the mixture stickier. Something in between the consistency of the glue, and silicone. Maybe I wouldnt even need to use the glue if I found a product that fits my criteria. I viscous clear product similar to silicone would be ideal because then the peat could be mixed with it prior to application. This would solve the problem of the silicone backgrounds going bald over time, and would solve cracking problems that could occur using this semi brittle mixture.


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## calebrez (Dec 9, 2009)

GRIMM said:


> Well I sold the nicer looking large one, and still am trying to sell the small one.
> 
> These were just for practice, so I wasnt planning on putting them inside tanks or anything. Id really like to find an additive that can be added to make the mixture stickier. Something in between the consistency of the glue, and silicone. Maybe I wouldnt even need to use the glue if I found a product that fits my criteria. I viscous clear product similar to silicone would be ideal because then the peat could be mixed with it prior to application. This would solve the problem of the silicone backgrounds going bald over time, and would solve cracking problems that could occur using this semi brittle mixture.


Hey grimm I was wondering if you could use a type of grout or maybe some epoxy to seal the cotton if you needed to seal it completely. I do not think it will rot with your mixture covering it.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Why not use a resin, fiberglass for instance, instead of a glue or sika type sealant. Think this would be the best overall.


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## viv4life (Dec 29, 2008)

put me down for one


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## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

I'm curious what is so stupid about your current stupid quote of the week winner...is it because you are against mixing species, or you feel the animals are crowded? Maybe a stupid quote of the week isn't a good idea...but in any event:

Below is my current winner...it was made by a guy using cotton and glue (a glue, by the way, that is not recommended for constant submersion...which obviously means it will break down over time) to build structures in a 100% humidity environment. He is actually questioning the guy's confidence in whether or not cotton will break down in water...ha! Isn't that funny?

It's like saying, "Wait a minute...are you telling me a speeding vehicle will kill a raccoon?"



GRIMM said:


> You seem confident in this....Have you used cotton before in a viv? Have you used it completely covered in glue?


Then...the dude SELLS them, having no idea what they will look like two years from now...


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Smashtoad said:


> I'm curious what is so stupid about your current stupid quote of the week winner...is it because you are against mixing species, or you feel the animals are crowded? Maybe a stupid quote of the week isn't a good idea...but in any event:
> 
> Below is my current winner...it was made by a guy using cotton and glue (a glue, by the way, that is not recommended for constant submersion...which obviously means it will break down over time) to build structures in a 100% humidity environment. He is actually questioning the guy's confidence in whether or not cotton will break down in water...ha! Isn't that funny?
> 
> ...


So what’s your deal?

First of all, the quote isn’t from anyone on this forum. Yes a 30 gallon is very crowded for +5 animals of 3 different species.

Second, because of the fact that cotton will rot, I sold it to a person using it for a leopard gecko enclosure. I wouldn’t sell something to anyone if I didn’t know it would be safe and withstand the environment beforehand.

Third, I sold it for 50$...Less money then I put into making it. Even if I paid myself minimum wage I still wouldnt have broken even.

Forth, as you can tell by the title, this is an experiment with new building methods and a way for me to further my experience with background construction. Most people appreciate the additional time and effort to post pictures with my step by step instructions also. Hence all the "thanks" this thread, and others of mine have been given. Unless you have something productive and helpful to say, don’t add to my thread. Thanks


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## calebrez (Dec 9, 2009)

Honestly if it lasts 2 years then you more than get your money out of it. Relax a little. He was plainly asking if you had any experience with cotton in a viv.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

calebrez said:


> Honestly if it lasts 2 years then you more than get your money out of it. Relax a little.


Agreed. While it's true that cotton will rot in a humid viv, there are very few things that don't begin to rot the minute you put them in a humid viv.

Beautiful design BTW.


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

i need to quit beeing lazy and do one of these AWESOME root systems myself... Freakin' sweet job Grimm!! cant wait to see em in a viv planted!


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks Cheezus. It doesnt take much skill really, just a bunch of tubes stuck together and foam in the cracks. The only hard part is getting the entire surface evenly covered.

Ive been thinking I might even try pre mixing small portions of silicone and peat prior to applying it to the background. I would then also press dry peat into the silicone as best I could. My old silicone/coco fiber background became bald within a year, so this might work better and last longer.


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## Raf (Feb 20, 2010)

> Ive been thinking I might even try pre mixing small portions of silicone and peat prior to applying it to the background.


I think that doesn't work. The silicone doesn't hold on the tubes once it's mixed with peat. I tried to put a new layer of silicone on top of the old layer with peat pressed into it and that didn't hold. Difficult to explain but you'll see when you try it.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Raf said:


> I think that doesn't work. The silicone doesn't hold on the tubes once it's mixed with peat. I tried to put a new layer of silicone on top of the old layer with peat pressed into it and that didn't hold. Difficult to explain but you'll see when you try it.


I have also tried applying new silicone to previous bald sections and it didnt hold at all. My thinking is if I mix and apply it fast enough, the silicone might have enough hold to stick to the tubes and foam. Id like a slow curring silicone since it would give me the best chance of success. I'll give it a shot on a small section next time I try this type of background. Worst case senario it wont work and I'll cover it the typical way. Best case, it works and I wont have bald spots down the road. Thanks as always Raf.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

anyone know if this stuff is actually safe for the frogs? i made a background with it and im a little worried about putting any frogs in the tank.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

why not a general marine epoxy like "west systems"? I tried a few experiments mixing it with dry peat, but the forformula turned more into a putty, and soaked up massive amounts of epoxy, in the process. And though I could see some uses for such a mixture, it didn't work well in painting cord or pvc (too thick). 

But after reading your original posts, in this thread, I tried mixing it with pre-moistened peat, which worked out great in circumstances where the dry peat mixture failed. And it seemed to dry with no issues.

Though admitably, these were just experiments done on a few spare pieces of material, and not large applications. But I'm in the process of building a viv out of plywood and plan on trying the above techniques on a larger scale, then. But it will probably take me some time to actually get to that point


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Boondoggle said:


> Agreed. While it's true that cotton will rot in a humid viv, there are very few things that don't begin to rot the minute you put them in a humid viv.
> 
> Beautiful design BTW.


For the record, I don't think anyone has to worry. I have some roots that I made out of cotton cord that have been in one of my tanks for over two and a half years. 

I first soaked it in concrete emulsion that was tinted brown. Then I covered it with colored foam. 

In over two and a half years of exposure to high humidity it hasn't shown any signs of breaking down or deteriorating.


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## aliciaface (Jul 11, 2010)

what concrete emulsion did you use? i have been playing around with a few things to do a root system background, trying to find out what works best for coating, for water areas, etc etc. and would love more info


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

aliciaface said:


> what concrete emulsion did you use? i have been playing around with a few things to do a root system background, trying to find out what works best for coating, for water areas, etc etc. and would love more info


I'll have to try to put together a thread on how I did it. Here are some photos. Here the down and dirty version.










Colors I added to emulsion.









Cotton rope purchased at fabric store.









Teased out root shape. Soaked in colored emulsion. Shaped and dried.









Colored with colored foam. Installed in tank for couple of years.


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

*davecalk* see no pictures, thus they'r important


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## Gustopher (Sep 13, 2011)

I know it was touched on a bit earlier in the thread, but has anyone gotten the peat moss/titebond wet after it has dried? I used this technique for the background and surround of my water feature, then planted the tank and water the plants. however, the water feature area got a good dousing from my watering can and it stayed mushy for another day or so. I didn't blend my peat into a find dust if that matters. I have yet to fill the water feature and am now thinking that maybe I shouldn't, or scrape this off that area and do something else.


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## diggenem (Sep 2, 2011)

I think titebond will be ok for a water feature. On my last build I used Titebond II lava rocks and sand to make a waterfall and its been holding up pretty well under constant water movement.


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## Gustopher (Sep 13, 2011)

diggenem said:


> I think titebond will be ok for a water feature. On my last build I used Titebond II lava rocks and sand to make a waterfall and its been holding up pretty well under constant water movement.


I think you're probably smart to have used sand and rock with it. The unground peat I used still takes in too much water and parts that were touching the water started to fall apart. Perhaps I didn't use enough titebond in the mix to begin with. I think I'll turn off the water and let it dry and silicone the parts where the water actually flows and then put in some rocks and whatnot.


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## bhali333` (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm also using Titebond III, I am brushing on the Titebond and then applying the peat by hand the old fashioned way.

I might have misunderstood you when you said you were mixing the peat with the Tiebond. Are you actually mixing the two together and then applying the whole mix or like I am applying the glue and then the peat?

Bruce


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## Gustopher (Sep 13, 2011)

bhali333` said:


> I'm also using Titebond III, I am brushing on the Titebond and then applying the peat by hand the old fashioned way.
> 
> I might have misunderstood you when you said you were mixing the peat with the Tiebond. Are you actually mixing the two together and then applying the whole mix or like I am applying the glue and then the peat?
> 
> Bruce


I actually mixed the titebond III with the peat. Isn't that what the guy in this thread did? I saturated the peat with water, then mixed in a ton of glue and then applied. I had to make about 7 baking trays of it since I've got a 125g.


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

I recently bought some different widths of flexible tubing - like aquarium tubing - from my home store that I am planning to use in the "alien gecko civilization" vivarium but that might also be a good way to make some flexible roots in different sizes. Its not cheap however. I guess nylon rope would be a cheaper method. I also wonder if using gorilla glue instead of silicon and tightbond wouldn't be easier - you can just paint the glue on with a brush so it gets into all the nooks and crannies. 

Grimm, i'm going to be working on a furniture conversion for crested geckos - its about a six foot cabinet, glass on three sides. My original idea is to create a party of a tree inside it, complete with a root structure and branch structure at the top. The branch structure is more important, since the geckos are arboreal. I'd be interested in some of your ideas on what materials and techniques might work.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 18, 2011)

Bending PVC I think would be your best bet for the more solid/larger structures, Beth.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Bending PVC I think would be your best bet for the more solid/larger structures, Beth.


I agree that a bunch of bent PVC tubing is the way to go. You can even use PVC cement to bond the tubing where it touches to make it much more rigid if you're worried about the integrity of something so tall. I would also use a wide variety of diameters of tubing, I think that looks more natural. And lots of rope vines look great, even if you don't want them free hanging, I think they add a lot when they're just placed periodically directly on the roots/trunk.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

How do you get started on one of these? Do you have a picture in your head before-hand and shape it to that, throw stuff up there and let it take shape as you go, or ...?


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Good question! 
I tried planning and envisioning in my head. By the time I started spraying GS, everything changed and I just took the "artistic" approach of shaping things as I go. Less frustration that way, I think (when things don't become what you envisioned). 
Curious to hear Grimm's point of view.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I find it is a combination of planning, imagining the final result, and playing around with what looks best as you make it. That goes with anything I build for the most part....Just make sure the final background can get back inside your tank


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

I think I'll steal this for my drop-off viv.........BUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

D


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