# Foam coming off glass



## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

I started a build and decided to give expanding foam a try. I went with the black colored Touch-N-Foam brand since it was on the cheaper side.
I siliconed the cork slabs to the back of the tank, then added the foam.
Unfortunately I have been to busy to get back to the build for a few weeks. Today when I went down to get to work on it. I noticed that the foam has pulled off the glass in many spots. I got pics of it from the front side. On the back I can see a lot of it detaching itself from the glass. Granted I couldn't get a good picture of that (hard to see where it is sticking and where it isn't in the pic).

Here is some pics



an overall pic of one of the tanks


I'm figuring that the smaller parts will be ok. Since it's wedged between the cork slabs. But the big piece is questionable. Tempted to fill in the gap with silicone, or rip it out, silicone the glass and redo it.

The only thing that makes me question the silconeing the glass, then foaming method. Is that if the foam pulls off the silicone, you won't know. I guess the only way to really prove it (someone with more experience can probably confirm it) is to silicone a section of glass and foam it, then foam a part of bare glass and foam it. Then a few weeks later see which one stuck to the glass better.

I appreciate any feed back on this, before I trudge on farther into this build. Cause I plan to do the sides also. Hate to spend the next month doing experiments to find the best method.


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## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

Here's a few pics from the back. Got 2 tanks that I'm working on. You can see spots where it looks wrinkled. That's where it's pulling off the glass the most.



Also I will throw in that before I silicone the cork slabs to the back of the tank. I put expanding foam on the concaved part. Then used a saw to cut the excess foam off and give me more of a flat surface to silicone the pieces to the glass. Not sure if that was the best method since it's my first time siliconeing cork slabs to a tank. But seemed like a good idea.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I've always found that expanding foam sticks to silicone much better than glass, so I typically lay a few beads on the back panel before applying foam. It doesn't take much, and you can spread it thinly with a credit card or plastic putty knife.
Also, if you use a thick application of foam all at once, it is likely to shrink back more significantly than with a couple of thinner coats. Spraying a little water on the curing foam can keep it a little fuller as well.


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## L8apex (May 2, 2014)

I like to silicone mesh screen (or tree fern panels for a combo background) to the back before foaming. I'm sure just silicone is fine, but when I think of it holding on for a decade the extra work of cutting the mesh before applying silicone strips seems like a small sacrifice to gain so much surface area for adhesion. I also run the strips of silicone vertically with diagonal connections to carry the load down the back. I also silicone heavy pieces directly to the glass then foam around for added support.


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## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

Ok, I'm ripping out most of it. A few sections that seem to be holding well and are wedged into place I will keep there. I should have done more research beforehand.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I found that the black comes detached much more easily than the normal, yellowish tan stuff.


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## VPardoel (Apr 2, 2010)

Don't really know about the foam in the USA.
But most people here in Europe use a styrofoam base silliconed to the back of the glass.
The foam will completely stick to the styrofoam.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

VPardoel said:


> Don't really know about the foam in the USA.
> But most people here in Europe use a styrofoam base silliconed to the back of the glass.
> The foam will completely stick to the styrofoam.


I do the same.


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## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

Well, I ripped out the foam, applied a thin layer of silicone, then reapplied the foam, making many applications on the area that I want to build up.
Unfortunately, it's still pulling off the back. I will throw in a few pics. Bad part is now, I can't put silicone in between the foam and glass, since I already got cured silicone in there. So I used the last of the Touch-N-Foam that I had to fill the gap. Granted it's probably redundant to do so. But maybe a little compression between the 2 of them will make it take hold better, or if it holds long enough to put silicone on. The silicone could help hold it in place.



I'm pretty happy with the turnout, after the carving. Granted it's going to be interesting trying to silicone, and apply peat moss to it. Always on the race for the 10 min mark. The only thing that scares me on that is, if I get 1/4 done or so, and add the peat moss. I'm not sure if I can get all the dirt back up off the foam that isn't silicone. So the second application might not be as good, since the dirt I couldn't get off could prevent it from sticking to it, or it won't matter at all, and just mix into the silicone. Not sure if that sounds confusing being typed.

Here is a pic of the foam piece, I was just going to have a cave at the bottom, and a spot above it for a plant.But then I changed my mind and did another cave. I guess I'm a sucker for always wanting to give the frogs more climbing area. I do have enough room at the top, to add a pot for a plant. I'm still debating that one. Would be cool to have some plant draping limbs down over the caves.


This is another pic with the new foam applied.


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## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

Well all looked good when I got home today, so I did the last bit of trimming. Then started to silicone it. I actually got farther than I thought I would in 10 min. Got 3/4 of the big part covered. Waited 3 hours, then did the last of it, and got the lower edge stretching stretching across the bottom of the back of the tank. Had to turn the tank to help distribute the peat moss. 
After I was done I noticed that since I put that last bit of foam down at the bottom, it pulled the entire side off the silicone. I expected it to possibly push a little bit off the side, since I put new foam in the gap where it was pulling off. But I didn't expect it to push the whole thing.
On a good note, I did make sure to silicone all around the edges. Laid a heavy bead of fresh silicone around the edges, then while smoothing out all the silicone. I pushed the bead with my figure and ran it around the edges to give an extra hold to it. I figure since the tank is only being held together by silicone. It shouldn't have any trouble.
At least I hope so, it's too late to turn back now.

If I ever do the expanding foam method again, I will definitely go with the yellow Great Stuff version. Granted I will definitely give it a test trial on a piece of glass before applying it to another build.

The only pros that I can give Touch-N-Foam is obviously it's black, and that it has a piece to place the end of the straw so when your done. You can attach the end of the straw to it, and use the rest of it later. I was able to reuse the same can 3 times before I had to cut the straw to get the final 4th use out of it.

I will be starting a thread on this build soon, and I will post a link to it.
In the meantime. Here is a sneak peak at my cork stump that I got from Patrick Nabors. It's awesome having that guy in Kansas City.
It's a little big for the tank, but I gotta use it.


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## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

Doesn't Styrofoam leach toxins into the tank? 

I read that using Styrofoam was bad. If it isn't, I would be using a lot of it.

I do know some people use Styrofoam, then cover it in morter, then acrylic paint. But I haven't got around to doing that yet. Also I figured it would look too fake, and probably have a bunch of moss or green snot grow on it to make it look even worse. But I haven't done it, so my thoughts are invalid.


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## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

Ok, well I went down to get more coverage done on the tank with silicone and peat moss, and found that the foam has pulled back even more, lol.
Guess I didn't get the foam attached to the silicone, which was attached to the glass very well. 
Well I decided to try and improvise. I took a bottle of silicone, stuck the nozzle in the opening, and just started pumping, pumping, pumping, and pumped some more till it started coming out of the hole that I stuck the nozzle in. Put well over an entire bottle in there.
Hopefully this will get it to stay in place. If it don't, I may just trash the tank, and start over. Cause I'm not digging all that silicone out, lol.

Here are a few pics. (the darker black is the silicone)


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## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

Just been one day, but it does seem to be holding so far.

I hope I don't discourage anybody from doing the expanding foam method. I'm just sharing my experience and getting info from others. There are many other people that obviously have had great success with this method. Plus there are many other variables that could come into play.
Like what brand you use, whether you use the regular Great Stuff foam (yellow), or whether you use the pond and stone (black) type of foam.
Maybe letting it sit for a few weeks helped it shrink and pull off the glass.
Other foams might stick to silicone also.

I can say from my experience Touch-N-Foam is not what you want. It may be cheaper on Amazon than any other expanding pond and stone/Landscaping foam out there. But it's not worth it.

On another good note though. It did not shrink very much. It may have pulled off the glass, but the overall size stayed about the same. When I pulled out the large section of foam to redo it, it did take some work to get it out. I actually used a screw driver to get the last section off the glass.
When I cut it, it didn't make a lot of popping noise like the regular Great Stuff foam did. Plus it didn't shrink after cutting it. In the spots where it was cut.
I used Great Stuff foam in a different application, and it popped a lot after I cut it, and it shrunk after I cut it over a few days. I don't have any experience with it sticking to glass.

But anyways, if I ever do this again, I will use a different type of foam. Then record my experience on this thread. Plus if anybody else would like to ad their experience onto this thread. Feel free to do so. I would like to know the steps you used, and the type of foam you used. If you let it sit for a day, or week, etc. Did you let it sit for a few days after you cut it, did it shrink where you cut it, etc.

Well I'm off to work more on my builds, looking forward to the end results.


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## kevin575 (May 7, 2012)

Well after a long time (low on funds, had a kid), I have finally gotten around to setting up these tanks.

But when I opened the tank that I put a lot of silicone in. I could still smell silicone. I wonder if silicone can stain the smell inside a tank. It should be dry. Last time I put silicone on it was the end of July 2014. It sat in the garage for a few months with no doors on it. Then I moved it into the frog room, and it sat there till now. The tanks have the Sherman vent design. So there is some air that can get in.

I took the doors off thinking I would give it a few days. But yet it's been 8 months. I don't know... At least I don't need to use it right away. I got a few weeks for plants.


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## Igofastr (Jan 16, 2015)

I don't know what to tell you about the silicone, but I had a similar experience recently. I had a tube of GE II sitting around...probably a couple of years old. I used it in my construction, and it just never seemed to set up.

I haven't had that problem before, but I wiped it out as best I could, and tried again with a freshly baught tube, and it cured right away. I can't help but wonder if over time, whatever is in those tubes that cures the silicone evaporates or dissipates somehow.

I know that I've had other tubes sitting around on shelves unopened, and when I tried to use them around the house, the contents had separated and were unusable.

Were you using old silicone perhaps?

Ron


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

There are a couple of mistakes that are often made.

The mistake that I see here was from trying to install the foam over the silicone. Not much besides silicone sticks to cured silicone. Freshly applied silicone will stick to a lots of things. But applying silicone to oily, soapy surfaces will not adhere very well. Outside of more silicone, most things will not adhere to cured silicone. Therefore attempting to install foam to a siliconed surface will not end well. Sorry. Cured silicone tends to bond well to all kinds of things, as does foam. By the way silicone actually cures from the presence of water. The most commonly used polyurethane foams (Great Stuff, Black Pond foam, All spray can foams) also cure from the presence of water. 
Another problem that is often made is applying spray can foams too thickly without the application of water. Most of the foams that we use, including Gorilla Glue, cure due to the presence of water, which comes either from humidity in the air or from the application of water. If you apply too thick of a foam layer, when the foam cures, from the outside in, too thick of a layer will stop moisture from getting to the center and allowing full curing. This can result in pockets of uncured foam which is weak and doesn't bond well. A simple solution is to put the foam down in small layers, misting the new foam with water from a spray bottle / foam / spray / etc. This also increases the amount of foam expansion you can get from the foam. By the way, Polyurethane water proof glues can be tinted and colorized by adding dry paints such as tempora paints (kindergarten teachers use it) or you can add acrylic craft paints to colorize and cure the Gorilla Glue.
You could also cut strips of newspaper or paper towels, moistening the paper with a spray bottle, and then alternate foam application / strips of wet paper. This also works well. This allows you to use foam inside of molds. 
Applying moisture also greatly speeds the foam expansion and curing process.
The only caveat is two part expanding foam, where you add part A and part B to catalyze and set off the foam expansion and curing. Adding water to this type of foam does not work. 
The following are a couple of Journals that I put together documenting how one can colorize 2 part expanding foam to make rocks, vines, etc.

Making Colored Foam / Tank Rear Access / Making Artificial Vines

Detailed Journal / Colored Foam / Tank Rear Access / Artificial Vines & Stumps


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Oh, by the way, you can add too much water which will also impede the adhesion. You just want a light mist to kick off the foam expansion. Likewise you don't need a lot of acrylic paint to tint the foam or to cure the foam. Experiment with mixing colors to get very natural browns and grays. It's really pretty easy.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

I prefer to silicone rectangular janitorial floor buffing pads to create drip / grow walls. Pouches can be cut / heated into the pad for planting broms, tadpole rearing cups, etc. The pads come in a couple of sizes 20 x 14 inches is common, and in different colors, black, brown, red, white and blue, they are completely inert, and are frog safe. I've used them in tanks for years. I used them in a recent tank to sculpt the landscape and put in hiding holes, planting pouches and caves, they can be heated and shaped with an inexpensive heat gun. I used black expanding foam to glue them in. Cutting the pads can be a bit of a pain, but I found that installing a hooked utility knife blade into an oscillating multi tool makes simple work of cutting and shaping them. I use the black. These janitorial floor buffing pads are much cheaper than epiweb. A case of 5 is $34-$40 on line or from a local janitorial supply store. When applying, the foam expands penetrating into the buffing pad so it locks extremely well onto the wall.


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