# frog with bad aim



## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

today i fed my frogs and my male seems to have a bad aim...it seemed as he couldnt catch any ff but my female was just fine she was hopping around eating them like crazy i dont know if im doing anything wrong...i dont think so cause if i was woulnt both my froggs be the same since there both in the same enclosure???and my male is a bit on the thin side but my female is normal size and chubby...it wasent that many ff i threw in there cause it was the last of them im on my wat to go get some more right now and also some pin heads ill see how he does when i throw some more in there when i come back...any advice???

thanks
erik...


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Separate them immediately! Get your thin frog in it's own clean enclosure with plenty of hides. 

It's been recommended to me in this case to use moist paper towels for the substrate, that way they can be replaced easily, providing a cleaner environment. 

It's also been recommended to me in this case to have fecals done and/or get the frog looked at by a vet.

Depending on what's wrong with the frog, you may need to sterilize the original tank, to prevent the other(s) from being introduced to whatever the issue is. 

In my experience, when a frogs starts missing, the survival rate is low...Don't hesitate with a diagnosis.

Tommy


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## Darts15 (Jun 5, 2011)

Its short-tongue. Usually caused by Vitamin A deficiency...


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

jdooley195 said:


> Separate them immediately! Get your thin frog in it's own clean enclosure with plenty of hides.
> 
> It's been recommended to me in this case to use moist paper towels for the substrate, that way they can be replaced easily, providing a cleaner environment.
> 
> ...


so should i tank my female out of there also???cause my male(the one missing) is separated already...???well i guess ill just do it any way and starilize the whole tank...


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

If it is a case of Vitamin A deficiency (which it seems it is) sterilization is not necessary, a product such as repashhy Vitamin A plus should fix the problem.

If you go that route keep in mind not to overly supplement with vitamin A as this can be problematic.

Also moving your frogs around and sterilizing the whole viv may add unneeded stress to the frogs which can lead to additional problems.

Justin


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## Darts15 (Jun 5, 2011)

Yeah. That would be very stressful. You can QT the male to make sure his condition gets better, but I would definitely get a vitamin supplement.


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Darts15 said:


> Its short-tongue. Usually caused by Vitamin A deficiency...


so do i separate him and dust with vit A i have a bag of it here at home i just bought ive had my male for about 1 month and have only given them vit A once the rest of the time ive onlt been giving them repasy calcium plus...could it be from over supplementing???ive seperated both froggs for now and i am going to steralize the enclosure ...how do i sterilize it???


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Once again sterilization may not be necessary...

If you do choose to though something like a 10% bleach solution should do the job and make sure to thoroughly rinse the viv afterwards.

At this time I would make sure to supplement the male with the vitamin A and maybe dust for the female once as a precaution.

Justin


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## Darts15 (Jun 5, 2011)

Yeah don't sterilize. There's no parasitical infestation. Just dust the flies with the supplement for both of the frogs in the same tank (if they're already together). It won't hurt the other one. Sterilizing is unnecessary. The way you do it though is a dry ice bomb...without cleaning EVERYTHING out of it and then bleaching it. This kills all bugs and such.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

If you're frog just started missing but is obviously skinny, there's a good chance something else is going on.

Regardless if it's a vitamin def. or not, separate them to reduce stress on the sick one.

If you're going to get him looked at or do fecals, you can wait to sterilize your tank until you get results.

If it were me, I would assume the worst and hope for the best.

Good luck!

Tommy


Also...You may want to talk to whoever you bought him from. If you've only had him for a month, the issue may have already been within the frog.


.


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Hes been eating just fine since I've had him unless it just progressed...i also don't mind cleaning out and sanitizing the tank tho...i am about to get some ffs and crickets rite now so ill se how he does when i get back home...

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## pdfDMD (May 9, 2009)

Darts15 said:


> Its short-tongue. Usually caused by Vitamin A deficiency...


I agree with this assessment; if is in fact short-tongue syndrome, there are no parasites or infections causing it. As Darts said, it's a Vitamin A deficiency. This vitamin helps regulate certain cellular secretions, such as mucous, as well as epithelial cell function. If it's lacking, it can change how those cells function. The best way to manage your frog is to isolate him, dust all food with a supplement containing Vitamin A, and hope it doesn't escalate to the point where you have to syringe feed him. I ordered two frogs a couple of years ago from a frogger and they both arrived with this problem and it only got worse. They both ended up dying, despite my best efforts, and it wasn't pretty.

This is one reason why it's not only important to always supplement your frog's diet, but do so with quality, non-expired supplements that contain a full spectrum of vitamins, especially Vitamin A. When an animal starts showing signs of a vitamin or mineral deficiency, usually, their prognosis is very poor. I really hope your little guy pulls through, though.


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

So how often should i do the vit A ?once a week?

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## Darts15 (Jun 5, 2011)

whenever you dust your fruit flies or what not. I guess most would say a few times a week...I generally do it every other(ish) day.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Vitamin A should only be used once every 2 weeks or so. 

There is already a small amount in some supplements, and too much vitamin A will harm your frog. 

There should be a 'directions for use' on the package and also the effects of too much vit A on the package as well.

As far as a "recovery dosage" I can't comment, because I've always just used it as suggested.

pm sent



Tommy


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

pdfDMD said:


> I agree with this assessment; if is in fact short-tongue syndrome, there are no parasites or infections causing it. As Darts said, it's a Vitamin A deficiency. This vitamin helps regulate certain cellular secretions, such as mucous, as well as epithelial cell function. If it's lacking, it can change how those cells function. The best way to manage your frog is to isolate him, dust all food with a supplement containing Vitamin A, and hope it doesn't escalate to the point where you have to syringe feed him. I ordered two frogs a couple of years ago from a frogger and they both arrived with this problem and it only got worse. They both ended up dying, despite my best efforts, and it wasn't pretty.
> 
> This is one reason why it's not only important to always supplement your frog's diet, but do so with quality, non-expired supplements that contain a full spectrum of vitamins, especially Vitamin A. When an animal starts showing signs of a vitamin or mineral deficiency, usually, their prognosis is very poor. I really hope your little guy pulls through, though.


Yes, definitely check the date on your supplements even if you just bought them. Sometimes, especially at pet stores, they can sit awhile before being purchased. I had this problem a couple years ago when I kept other reptiles.

Good luck on the rehab.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Darts15 said:


> Its short-tongue. Usually caused by Vitamin A deficiency...


I think you are right on target here, so You get the blue ribbon.



Darts15 said:


> whenever you dust your fruit flies or what not. I guess most would say a few times a week...I generally do it every other(ish) day.


Hopefully you misunderstood here, though. Dusting with Vitamin A every other day will quickly kill your frogs. It is easy to overdose vitamin A and that could lead to renal failure. Repashy Vitamin A should NEVER be dosed more than once a week unless under direct care of a qualified vet. Even then, you only use it once a week if you are currently experiencing problems. Once the problem has cleared up and his tongue is sticky again, you should drop to no more than once a month.

This sure sounds like a vitamin A deficiency to me. Vitamin A deficiency can show itself in other ways too, like repeated egg failure, so these links will be good reading for you. 


Pumilo said:


> Bad eggs can be a sign of a vitamin A deficiency. Repashy now makes Repashy Vitamin A Plus for just this purpose. At first glance, this first linked thread looks like I screwed and gave you the wrong thread. I didn't though, it's a good one for you.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/78983-azureus-poor-sight.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/81184-bad-eggs.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/78022-die-before-birth-help.html
> Good luck!


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## Darts15 (Jun 5, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> I think you are right on target here, so You get the blue ribbon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


of course. i just use an all-in-one sort of thing. i don't dust with any specific vitamins like A. I just mix a tiny bit of Repashy calcium supplement with herptivite. a realistic estimate of how often i use that is four times a week at most if i remember correctly. sorry for the confusion haha


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I might have missed it, but are you currently supplementing your frogs with anything? If so, how often? Are you feeding them only fruit flies? How often are you feeding them? What species of frogs are they?

I would also post some pictures of the frogs, as it might be helpful. Maybe also the enclosure. The more information you give us, the more helpful the board can be.

Also, as previously recommended, getting fecals done would be a good idea, especially if you haven't quarantined the frogs (if from different vendors), or if you've never had them done before.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Darts15 said:


> of course. i just use an all-in-one sort of thing. i don't dust with any specific vitamins like A. I just mix a tiny bit of Repashy calcium supplement with herptivite. a realistic estimate of how often i use that is four times a week at most if i remember correctly. sorry for the confusion haha


 
Herptivite doesn't include any thing the frogs can efficiently use as vitamin A so your diluting the needed vitamins way below what the frog needs..... It is also possible with that mixture, you have reduced the level of calcium below the needs of the frog which can result in calcium deficiency which can result in bone deformations of those that control the tounge and/or the jaw bones. These issues can also cause problems with the frog's ability to feed.... 

Some comments

Ed


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

i am supplementing with repasy calcium plus every other day and im feeding every day i might miss one day here and there...i separated both frogs in containers to moniter there eating ...my female just goes nutts on the ffs but my male still just cant seem to catch any...it sad...wat should i do?


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

You could try a piece of a banana to keep the fruit flies still, so he could try to hit an easier target. Can you post a pic of the male?


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Instead of telling you what is wrong (which none of us can do since we can't see it) I will tell you what I would do. 

Before you start, feed some un-dusted flies. I have noticed that a heavily dusted fly can make it hard to catch because the heavy powder coating prevents the tongue from sticking to the fly (much for the same reason a gymnast will cover their hand in power to reduce friction).

1) I would not sterilize the tank. If he is missing the fly it is not anything to do with bacteria or an "unsterile" environment. I would leave him in the tank, as to pull him will just stress him more. 

2) I would buy some Repashy Vitamin A Plus.

3) I would feed every other day for a few days dusting with only Vitamin A Plus (3 feedings to be specific)

4) I would watch to see how the aim improved

5) If it improved I would go back to the Repashy calcium Plus and Repashy Vitamin regiment (if you alternate). 

6) I would do a dusting of the Repashy Vitamin A plus about ever other week to help keep his level up, if it helped resolve the problem.

7) I would post on dendroboard that the frog is healthy, so all these yahoos think they helped you out.


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Here are the pics
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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

And female
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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Ok well i stuck them back together in the viv...lets see...

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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

He seems to try to catch them and when he misses just gives up...

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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Good luck.


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

man i hope he gets better...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

erik775 said:


> He seems to try to catch them and when he misses just gives up...


Unless you know what you are looking for, anurans with short tongue syndrome do look like they are missing but the tongue extention and retraction happens so quickly that it is easy to miss. If you are able to look carefully you may see the fly rock back and forth. 

If it is unable to capture food, it will starve (one of a few potential outcomes of severe vitamin A deficiency), unless you force feed it... I suggest contacting a local herp vet so they can get you the proper liquid diet, catheter and other needed equipment and show you how to do it.. (it is way easier with two people, one to hold the frog and one to adminster the food). 

Some comments

Ed


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Ed said:


> Unless you know what you are looking for, anurans with short tongue syndrome do look like they are missing but the tongue extention and retraction happens so quickly that it is easy to miss. If you are able to look carefully you may see the fly rock back and forth.
> 
> If it is unable to capture food, it will starve (one of a few potential outcomes of severe vitamin A deficiency), unless you force feed it... I suggest contacting a local herp vet so they can get you the proper liquid diet, catheter and other needed equipment and show you how to do it.. (it is way easier with two people, one to hold the frog and one to adminster the food).
> 
> ...


ok yeah i took a closer look and it is short tongue syndrome...what do you think a vet would charge???i dont know of any herp vets...


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

I fed them right now and he caught him self some ffs...I'm thinking og taking the female out when i feed him the vit a since he has to get it more i don't want to od my female sincevshes healthy any a pig...

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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Yup he's catching them...but having a bit of trouble

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

erik775 said:


> ok yeah i took a closer look and it is short tongue syndrome...what do you think a vet would charge???i dont know of any herp vets...


That depends on the vet and what has to be done with the animal. 

If it is still able to capture at least some flies, then the faster you get vitamin A in the form of retinyl palmitate or retinyl acetate into it, the better... If you wait too long, it will not be able to capture any food items... 

Some comments

Ed


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Ed said:


> That depends on the vet and what has to be done with the animal.
> 
> If it is still able to capture at least some flies, then the faster you get vitamin A in the form of retinyl palmitate or retinyl acetate into it, the better... If you wait too long, it will not be able to capture any food items...
> 
> ...


I have repashy vitamin a already...so should i give it once a week¿¿¿

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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

my frog didnt make it...


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## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

So sorry for your loss. I know how bad it sucks to lose one of our frogs.
Christine


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## isoletes (Jan 4, 2012)

So sorry about your frog


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry to hear it Erik.


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Yeah i know it was soo sad i found him stretched out dead in the tank . ...my gf was also sad she knows how bad i wanted to get dart frogs as pets...i own chameleons but havent owned df's ...i guess u learn from ur mistakes rite?

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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You got it, live and learn from it, and try again. Anyone in the hobby for any length of time, has lost frogs.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Sorry for your loss, I understand how you feel....


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Thanks every one..i gotta get this right i really love frogs and wanna continue keeping them and want to get my husbandry right ...i need to know what supplements i should have and how and when to give them as of right now i only have repashy calcium plus and repasy vit A .what else would i need and when do i give them?


Thanks..

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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

That is the two main supplements. People also rotate Rep-Cal Herptivite and Rep-Cal Calcium with D3. 

You also have to remember that not every frog will live. It is kind of like expecting every human to live. If this is a limited case it may not be your husbandry but something that couldn't be prevented.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

erik775 said:


> Thanks every one..i gotta get this right i really love frogs and wanna continue keeping them and want to get my husbandry right ...i need to know what supplements i should have and how and when to give them as of right now i only have repashy calcium plus and repasy vit A .what else would i need and when do i give them?
> 
> 
> Thanks..
> ...


*Okay, there is something going on with your frogs and I have some significant doubts that it is the supplements... You have described symptoms in two different frogs that on the surface look to be due to nutritional deficiencies but you shouldn't see both at the same time in the frogs... *(for the other example see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/87578-sls-question.html#post774662). As I noted in the other thread, there are a number of potential causes for some of these symptoms and instead of doing a complete husbandry workup, and ideally getting the bone density checked on the frogs by a vet to determine if you do indeed have a nutritional issue, instead of say thyroid issues, you ignore that suggestion and ask for help getting the supplementation right. *If you are following the directions that came with the supplements, then you should not have issues with nutritional deficiencies..* Earlier in the thread, you state you were dusting every other day, but that schedule should not result in the appearence of what looks like "MBD" or short tongue syndrome even though that schedule doesn't follow the instructions on the supplement container.... 

Earlier in the thread you express concen about how much a vet visit would cost and instead of seeking vet assistence, let the frog die even after it was pointed out that if it can't capture food it will die.... and when a second frog (ignoring the third one that went missing) starts showing issues, that look to be nutritional in origin, instead of seeking professional help, your ignore not only the instructions on the container, the suggestions to seek a vet, and proceed to try and see if supplementing would correct it... 

*There is something that just doesn't add up ... You don't get these two different types of nutritional diseases if you are supplementing the frogs since they are effectively two different opposing deficiencies.... **and I don't think the problem is with the supplements..... **Particularly since *
*1) short tongue is due to too little vitamin A*
*2) MBD type diseases are due to too little D3, and/or too little calcium, and/or too much phosphorus, and/or too much vitamin A... *

Some comments 

Ed


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## erik775 (Aug 19, 2012)

Ed said:


> *Okay, there is something going on with your frogs and I have some significant doubts that it is the supplements... You have described symptoms in two different frogs that on the surface look to be due to nutritional deficiencies but you shouldn't see both at the same time in the frogs... *(for the other example see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/87578-sls-question.html#post774662). As I noted in the other thread, there are a number of potential causes for some of these symptoms and instead of doing a complete husbandry workup, and ideally getting the bone density checked on the frogs by a vet to determine if you do indeed have a nutritional issue, instead of say thyroid issues, you ignore that suggestion and ask for help getting the supplementation right. *If you are following the directions that came with the supplements, then you should not have issues with nutritional deficiencies..* Earlier in the thread, you state you were dusting every other day, but that schedule should not result in the appearence of what looks like "MBD" or short tongue syndrome even though that schedule doesn't follow the instructions on the supplement container....
> 
> Earlier in the thread you express concen about how much a vet visit would cost and instead of seeking vet assistence, let the frog die even after it was pointed out that if it can't capture food it will die.... and when a second frog (ignoring the third one that went missing) starts showing issues, that look to be nutritional in origin, instead of seeking professional help, your ignore not only the instructions on the container, the suggestions to seek a vet, and proceed to try and see if supplementing would correct it...
> 
> ...


ok i will see if i can get some money together to take the frog to a vet although it will be a bit hard because i am not working right now and do not have the money at this time...thats the reason i ignored the vet suggestion. I will call around and get some prices to see how much one of thoes exams will be. Although i believe its going to be a bit expensive, and i dont think any vets around here ever delt with any frogs before, but i will call around... now that you mentioned that it could be do to, too much vit A. I think thats what caused my frogs legs to be that way. when the one frog started with the bad aim, i tried to give it more vit A than the other one and tryed to get it back into shape. I would separate both frogs when fed, and feed them individually. when i put them back together, the healthy frog went around in the viv eating the rest of the feeders dusted with the vit A. So theres where i messed up if that makes sense i should have not put my healthy frog back in there with all thoes vit A feeders. i messed up...


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