# Ants as feeders?



## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Just curious if anyone on the site had any experience in Keeping an ant colony as feeders? If so how do you keep/culture them? Where did you get a queen? This might not be a realistic thing, if not let me know why. 
Reason I'm asking is I've read that ants are a main food source in the wild.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

not recomended at all!!

wrong kind of ant you will have major problems and even no frogs left as they will eat the frogs.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

What's the correct kind. I'd assume one that's are small and don't sting. I wouldn't raise the ant colony in the viv either. Just sprinkle a few in from time to time.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

what happens when there are 2 or 3 that the frogs miss? then they establish a colony in your tank, then what?


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Only certain winged females can become queens. Workers/soldier ants can't reproduce.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

ok since you know, try it and let us know how things work out?


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

What Julio is trying to say: "Please, don't be stupid enough to friggin do this"


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Ok didn't expect this to be such a stupid question. I'm curious if the proper species is available. I'm not going in my back yard and digging up ants. Do they not eat a large amount of ants in the wild?


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

I study ants. If you find a species, that doesn't sting, that is very un-aggressive, specific ant species may be perfect as feeders... 
HOWEVER, and this is a major however, many people, use poisons to get rid of ants, you need to make sure none of your neighbors do or that could kill your frogs. Furthermore, many species of ants are highly agressive and could potentially hurt a dart frog, so if you can't be sure the ant doesn't sting, spray lots of Formic Acid or have a bad bite you shouldn't use it.
As for a few surviving and setting up shop. Not going to happen. Ant workers cannot set up a new colony without a queen, they are usually infertile, or if fertile, only lay male eggs which they cannot breed with (there are always a few exceptions, but the vast majority of ant species follow these rules). I have fed ants to darts before (long time ago and not to my current frogs), and it is amazing the different reaction you get when compared to them hunting fruit-flies. 
Saying all that, I wouldn't feed them ants unless you are completely aware of what you are doing and only a few at a time.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Neontra, I never expected to get such reaction lol.


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## Mer_ (Sep 11, 2011)

I wouldn't know where to tell you to get ants, obviously not from your backyard since the risks are too great. 

I think it can be done and I completely agree with you. If your frog misses some they would not be able to reproduce and take over your tank.

The only problem I see is finding a good species that is suitable for this kind of thing (feeding PDFs) and maintaining a healthy colony.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

There are several smaller species that would be perfect, some types of _Lasius_, _Leptothorax_, mild mannered _Myrmica_, but you would just need to make sure they were the proper kind. I am actually setting up an ant farm of _Lasius neoniger_ and will probably see the reaction my _R. imitators_ have to these small and very non-agressive ants (they actually run away leaving their brood behind when you disturb their nest). However, I am in Alberta, Canada so I can't tell you what ant species from your area would be good. If you have the ability to find a perfect ant species all for it, I just don't want people to make a mistake and have them lose some frogs.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks to those that didn't flame me for my ideas. Some people are quick to speak with little valuable info to speak of. If you could glasious keep me posted on your success. What I'd like to do is set a farm up myself as another source of food and so I can watch the ants. I've always like ant farms and would like to have another for dual purpose. Will you be receiving a queen ant? If so where did you get it from?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

this forum is a library. there is a search function and you can find just about everything you need, doing research helps before you kill your frogs


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

I got my ant queen from collecting her in the wild. She just started laying eggs. 
antscanada.com has good ant farms and stuff. Plus I believe they have a link to a trading system for actual colonies in North America. 
I think ants farms are awesome (and though I study ants I haven't had the greatest luck with them haha) and even if you don't use them as feeders they are still fun to have!


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## Mer_ (Sep 11, 2011)

19jeffro83 said:


> Thanks to those that didn't flame me for my ideas. Some people are quick to speak with little valuable info to speak of. If you could glasious keep me posted on your success. What I'd like to do is set a farm up myself as another source of food and so I can watch the ants. I've always like ant farms and would like to have another for dual purpose. Will you be receiving a queen ant? If so where did you get it from?


I found these after trying to find some online. 

ANTS for SALE ... and a few other things. | Guaranteed to Build Tunnels in ANT FARMS

The only other ones I could find for sale were harvester ants but they would definitely not work since they sting. Also im not sure how reliable that website is, so dont trust me 100% on it.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Yeah, harvestor ants would not be a good ant species they stng and have a bad bite.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

I will also point out most of the posts I can find about ants on this site are about ants invading a terrarium, especially the house pest _Monomorium pharaonis_, the Pharaoh Ant. It is a major house pest and breeds fast and in large numbers can easily take down a frog. They also like warm moist environments and easily breed in vivs. I am sure in the southern states there are even more ants that can do this, and anyone with ant problems should be aware that ants in the house could possibly do this. Furthermore If you ever find ants in the house, you should deal with them as it often means there is another type of issue allowing them to use your house as a habitable environment.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is illegal in the USA to transport ant queens across state borders without specific permits by the USDA. Attempting to transport ants without a permit is highly frowned upon by the goverment. 

One of the things to keep in mind is that you really have to use a very docile ant as the frogs are trapped in an area with a bunch of pissed off ants when you sprinkle them into the tank... In the wild, the frogs move around and pick off foragers without alerting the colony. 
If you can figure out a way to introduce them without pissing them off, people have used Tetramorium caespitum. 

I would avoid any of the ants in the Monomorium genus as they tend to be a hard to control pest.... and in my experience not accepted by the frogs. 

Ed


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

It is true, ants should not be shipped. The thing on antscanada.com is for people to find other ant keepers in their areas (I wasn't specific enough). And yes _Monomorium_ species can be a bad pest. I also agree only a few ants at a time would be best .


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks guys. Good info. I'll be looking further into this and I'll let you all know how things go.


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## NiceRhac (Sep 23, 2011)

Instead of ants, why not try isopods? PDFs can eat the babies, the adults however make great cleaners. Good luck anyway.


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## diggenem (Sep 2, 2011)

I swear I was going to ask this same question yesterday. I remember keeping an ant farm when I was younger. I believe they were a species of harvester ants that didn't sting. What I would do before I added them to the farm to keep the from scattering all over the place was put them in the freezer for about a min. It doesn't kill them but they would go to "sleep" and wake up when they warmed up. They never came with queens though and you can't setup a successfulcolony without one.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

NiceRhac said:


> Instead of ants, why not try isopods? PDFs can eat the babies, the adults however make great cleaners. Good luck anyway.


Ants are cooler to watch.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Glasious said:


> I have fed ants to darts before (long time ago and not to my current frogs), and it is amazing the different reaction you get when compared to them hunting fruit-flies.


How does the ant predation behavior differ from the fruit fly predation behavior?


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Julio said:


> ok since you know, try it and let us know how things work out?


Too funny brother....watch this guy go on and figure out the method of taming ants, and teaching them how to gloriously work around nice,big and juicy colorful frogs
Aaaa


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

NiceRhac said:


> Instead of ants, why not try isopods? PDFs can eat the babies, the adults however make great cleaners. Good luck anyway.


Yes! Why not isos huh? I mean theyre only very well established as great feeders in our hobby and readily available no? Just saying......... Awesome username by the way. ; )


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

hypostatic said:


> How does the ant predation behavior differ from the fruit fly predation behavior?


They zero in on them, perk up, just seem way more interested in them. I had one frog come across the viv to eat them. There were a ton of fruit flies in between. They just seem more attentive that the ants are there.

As for isos, there are lots of people who argue the more variation the better. If he wants to try ants, he can. He was asking so he could do it in the most responsible way he could.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Well Im gonna go smoke some crack....thought this was something yall should know...... Some things are better kept behind them closed doors! ; ) 

Seriously... Is someone feeding mini spiders to their frogs now too? Hmmm...how bout roach larvae....?


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Quotes found using 'search', just some things to think about.. 



bradadams said:


> In my experience feeding ants is not a good idea. I have fed a couple different types and the frogs did seem to like them but they wouldn't eat them all and the remaining ants would set up colonies or scent trails to bring in more ants. Too many ants equals dead frogs. I have had the unpleasant experience of loosing a few frogs to ants. In fact the ants that killed my frogs were the argentine ants. Just thought I would relate my experience. If you do choose to feed ants, use caution as Brent stated.
> 
> Brad





bbrock said:


> I would put a little peanut butter and sugar in a jar and leave it near their hill to bait them in. Then you can carefully transfer the jar to a frog tank. This way the ants aren't rialed up to where they may be releasing formic acid, pheromones, and generally P.O.ed to where they want to sting everything in sight. Just remember that frogs in the wild tend to snap up ants as they are calmly going about their daily business - unlike something like an anteater which tears in and generally ticks the ants off in the process of feeding. Whatever you do, never collect ants with an aspirator (a.k.a. pooter) unless you want to go to the hospital to get a new pair of lungs.





Ed said:


> I'm not entirely sure why there is so much interest in feeding out ants to the frogs as it isn't necessary and ants are a poor quality food item...
> 
> Ed





bbrock said:


> Yeah, those harvester ants will kill a dart frog in a heartbeat. Might as well try feeding them killer bees. Every been stung by one of those dudes? I have and it ain't fun. A friend of mine witnessed a toddler who sat on a harvester ant mound. They had to rush the kid to the hospital. Luckiliy they don't send enough ants with those ant farms to be dangerous but they are pretty aggressive predators.





camlov2 said:


> fyi-
> Our local store had a colony off ants move in one day and take over a small viv. The ants swarmed the frogs and killed them. I would not introduce anything that has or might attract ants into your build.





MD_Frogger said:


> A friend of mine just lost a gorgeous pair of breeding escudo due to the same type of ants. Pull the frogs immediately.


Man.... search rocks 

There are other people who have had luck feeding ants, but unless you can ID them yourself, you're playing with fire IMO.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

To the nay Sayers. I searched this topic already. I'm looking into the correct species to feed, not just any ant. They can not set up a colony and only a couple will be added at a time. You can think what you want but variety in diet is important. Ants are a nutritious source of food high in protein and folic acid. It's a main source of food in the wild. 
I will be trying in the future once I get my hands on a queen or two and start a colony outside of my vivs. I'll let everyone know how it works out. 
Open your minds a bit. Some of you act like there's only one way and certain death impedes if any other is tried.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

19jeffro83 said:


> To the nay Sayers. I searched this topic already. I'm looking into the correct species to feed, not just any ant. They can not set up a colony and only a couple will be added at a time. You can think what you want but variety in diet is important. Ants are a nutritious source of food high in protein and folic acid. It's a main source of food in the wild.


 
Where did you get the data that the ants were nutritious and high in protien? I would like to see the reference. 

Ed


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

It's been stated in many programs I've watched. There are animals that live almost 100% on ants and termites. They are also considered nutritious for humans to eat. I'll also be dusting as I feed them. 
What makes a fruit fly more nutritional? They're both insects. Aren't they made of the same thing? Why is this such a horrible idea? These will not be an ant that can sting, bite or eat my frogs. 
All the quotes from the search are irrelevant. The talk about wild caught ants or harvest ants which are not any species I'm looking to feed. They can't colonize as some geniuses on here think. And they can't call their ant buddies to come eat the frogs.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

19jeffro83 said:


> To the nay Sayers. I searched this topic already. I'm looking into the correct species to feed, not just any ant. They can not set up a colony and only a couple will be added at a time. You can think what you want but variety in diet is important. Ants are a nutritious source of food high in protein and folic acid. It's a main source of food in the wild.
> I will be trying in the future once I get my hands on a queen or two and start a colony outside of my vivs. I'll let everyone know how it works out.
> Open your minds a bit. Some of you act like there's only one way and certain death impedes if any other is tried.


Not a naysayer at all.... just giving you some snippets of wisdom. Let me paraphrase for you, since you obviously didn't take the time to read all of the quotes before offering conjecture-

1) Do you have any idea what the correct species is? If you don't, there are multiple species that have killed frogs.

2) If you do decide to collect ants, using a pooter/aspirator isn't a good idea unless you know what you're dealing with, formic acid in your mouth/lungs = not fun.

3) Ants are a poor quality food item. The amount of protein present is irrelevant as ants have very low digestibility efficiencies when compared to other feeder bugs (i.e. termites)..... many amphibs also vastly preferred termites to ants during testing (we've seen this via casual observation with dendrobates as well), and termites are readily available for purchase or collection.

Are you sure you're not thinking of FORMIC acid? Because that is a bad thing, not a good thing.........

The reason there are so many people telling you a) to be careful or b) not to even bother, is because there are many years of experience on this board; this has been thought of and tried many times before... you are not pioneering unknown territory. This happens to be one of those topics where a few success stories have met with just as many (if not more) failures, sometimes resulting in frog loss or home invasion. 

If I were you, I'd get a colony of termites going instead. I hope it works out for you.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

19jeffro83 said:


> All the quotes from the search are irrelevant. The talk about wild caught ants or harvest ants which are not any species I'm looking to feed. They can't colonize as some geniuses on here think. And they can't call their ant buddies to come eat the frogs.


1) The only way you're going to get a queen is from catching one in the wild, it's already been mentioned that it's illegal to ship across state lines and the chances of finding one for sale in-state are very low. 

2) Dead frogs don't tell lies. All it takes is one ant to escape and leave a trail, since you'll be almost 100% be using wild caught ants from your area, it's very feasible to think that an ant of the same type from a different colony could cross paths with that trail, and it's all downhill from there. Feel free to explain how there are multiple accounts of viv invasion resulting from a few individuals. 

3) You came here for advice, insulting the people on this board is not how you get help from them. A real "genius" is someone who joins a board, asks for help, and then starts spewing nonsense and calling names when he doesn't like the answer he gets. This is where I tell you to shove it, and find your own way.


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

To my understanding at least from reading the professional breeders series by Wolfgang Schmidt and others after necropsys were performed and stomach contents analyzed, most of the diet of tinctorious comes in the form of springtail species. So in theory ants dont even make up most of their diet in the wild at least concerning tinctorious.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Its true. My frogs eat way more _Collembola_ then fruit flies. 

As for Ants. I just want to state a few facts to help the understanding of ants (not so much being used as feeders but just for information in general)

1. Ants need a queen to start a colony. A group of workers will set up a nest and work together until they die, but cannot reproduce. 
2. Ants will most often only follow their own colony scent lines. Few if any will follow other colony scent lines unless they are in their territory or are aggressive species.
3. Many invasive ants are aggressive. One person posted that Argentine ants ate his frogs. The Invasion of terrariums by ants is most likely caused by invasive or pest species that can take advantage of a vivs moisture and heat. These ants most likely moved in there once they were already established in your house. And yes these species are good at taking down large prey by superior numbers and could kill your frogs. But it is most unlikely that adding a few individual ants into your viv would have encouraged other ants to move in.
4. Keeping an ant farm and dropping in a few ants once a week will not result in your house/viv being infested by ants.
5. Some ants have bad bites, are aggressive, have stings and formic acid. Others are sting-less, spray little and are docile.
6. Ants are a food source for lots of animals and therefore would be assumed to have some nutritional value.
7. Ants are hard to keep in ant farms, but once you do it, watching them is rewarding.

I'm going to stop posting about if they should be used as feeders or not, because to me, it doesn't matter. Mostly just wanted to clear some info up.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Thank you glasious for clearing some things up for me. Like we were talking about earlier I'd like to keep the ants for the sake of keeping them as well. I did read of a a species that was dissected with mostly ants in it's belly but that was one situation. I probably shouldn't assume that all are the same. I've also been looking into the species you've recommend and I mite be able to buy some queens from others who have acquired them. Who will know the species for those who are concerned. I'll be doing more research on their care to see if I have the time to raise these guy while taking care of my other pets. I do intend on getting some Isopods as well most likely before the ants. 
Tclipse if you are insulted you better grow some thicker skin my friend. I am in no way insulting peoe on this board. I may be new to this forum but am in no way new to forums. They all have their thick headed know it alls and I prefer not to get any information from them. I don deserve to be called stupid for thinking. I had an idea and asked about it. I only told people who had no clue about what they said that I'd rather hear facts over opinions and poor assumptions. Saying they'll make a colony in a viv is nonsense and I knew that way befor I asked the questions. You saying they'll leave a scent trail is false as well. So I say to you my cyber thug friend, goodbye and I hope a swarm of ravinous ants eat you while you sleep.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

19jeffro83 said:


> Tclipse if you are insulted you better grow some thicker skin my friend. I am in no way insulting peoe on this board. I may be new to this forum but am in no way new to forums. They all have their thick headed know it alls and I prefer not to get any information from them. I don deserve to be called stupid for thinking. I had an idea and asked about it. I only told people who had no clue about what they said that I'd rather hear facts over opinions and poor assumptions. Saying they'll make a colony in a viv is nonsense and I knew that way befor I asked the questions. You saying they'll leave a scent trail is false as well. So I say to you my cyber thug friend, goodbye and I hope a swarm of ravinous ants eat you while you sleep.


Lol. You can stop trolling now. I'm not personally insulted at all, I'm not one of the "geniuses" you were referring to... but it's totally classless to walk onto a forum and act like you own the place when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I have no time for crap like that, or people like you. Take care.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

19jeffro83 said:


> It's been stated in many programs I've watched. There are animals that live almost 100% on ants and termites. They are also considered nutritious for humans to eat. I'll also be dusting as I feed them.
> What makes a fruit fly more nutritional? They're both insects. Aren't they made of the same thing? Why is this such a horrible idea? These will not be an ant that can sting, bite or eat my frogs.
> All the quotes from the search are irrelevant. The talk about wild caught ants or harvest ants which are not any species I'm looking to feed. They can't colonize as some geniuses on here think. And they can't call their ant buddies to come eat the frogs.


 
I'm not sure where you got the information but you have clearly been accessing it from one or more questionable sources or simply making it up... There is also a fair bit of argument over how much protien is accessiable as most analysis on protien are thrown off by undigestiable or poorly digested chitin (not a free access but see The nutritional value of invertebrates with emphasis on ants and termites as food for mammals - Redford - 2009 - Journal of Zoology - Wiley Online Library (you can purchase access...) Compared to other feeders such as Drosophila melanogaster or even termites; ants are considered a poor quality food source. This has been shown to be the case via analysis (see above citation) and as controls in behavioral studies (see http://www.bio.txstate.edu/~gabor/Gabor&Jaeger95AB.pdf ). There is a substantial body of literature showing that ants are a poor quality food source. 

Fruit flies are more nutritious for the frogs by the simple virtue that they are more digestiable than ants. While they have the same amino acids there are differences in digestiability. As a very crude analogy, it is basically the difference between eating a banana and a banana peel. 
There are some very good analysis on fruitflies and thieir nutritional qualitities. I have referenced them on here a number of times. 

If you want to antagonize people through ignorance, you may at least attempt be more selective in your attempt..... 



Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You may also want to consider the fact that ants are a vector for a number of parasites as well as coccidians... 


Ed


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Rainforest Tree Frogs, Poison Dart Frog, Red Eyed Tree Frog, Costa Rica
Poison Dart Frog Fact Sheet - National Zoo| FONZ
Most Toxic Creature on the Planet
Poison Dart Frog Fact Sheet - Woodland Park Zoo, Seattle, WA
http://www.usfca.edu/fac_staff/dever/poison dart frog.pdf
All state ants as a main food source as well as the source of their poison. It's defiantly posable these sources aren't that reliable. 
Ed I was unaware of the fact they can't be broken down as easily and maybe for that reason there is better alternatives. At the same time we are trying to simulate there natural enviroment I our vivs. As some stated earlier their frogs go nuts for the ants and pass up FFs for them. Most animals know what they need in their bodies. Such as a dog eating grass or some birds eating rocks to aid in digestion. Maybe another reason for the frogs wanting them so bad. 
I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, I'm simply discussing a topic. I'll react as most would when others are so condescending toward them with 0 to say but negative things or imply how dumb I am for this or that.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

19jeffro83 said:


> All state ants as a main food source as well as the source of their poison. It's defiantly posable these sources aren't that reliable.


I was under this impression as well. I thought I had read in Lötters' Poison Frogs that a dissection of a tinc's stomach contents showed like 99% ants. (another member said springtails, so I may be mistaken). Although, maybe they found so many ants and not much else because the ants aren't digested as easily, and the other food items were digested away.



19jeffro83 said:


> Most animals know what they need in their bodies. Such as a dog eating grass or some birds eating rocks to aid in digestion. Maybe another reason for the frogs wanting them so bad.


Maybe the reason they want them so bad is not for nutrition, but so that they can sequester the ants' poisons.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Poison could defiantly be why. I didnt even think about that. I read the one about the stomach being filled almost 100% with ants too.


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

The main points that several members are trying to make are:

1. Ants can present an unnecessary hazard to your frog, and while it may be true that dendrobatids feed heavily on multiple ant species in the wild, it is not likely those species will be available to you in the wild in Canada. You may be presenting a danger in the form of a predator, an involuntary defensive sting or bite, or unwanted pathogens.

2. There are many, much more nutritious sources of food available commercially. Differences in captive lifespan versus wild lifespan can be attributed to several factors including: quality of food, exposure to pathogens, and exposure to predators. You are taking a risk at winding up on the downside of those three aspects.

3. No one here can tell you that you can or cannot feed locally caught ants to your frog, however, the experts here that have offered advice are trying to steer you in the right direction by recommending you not needlessly endanger your frog by exposing them to a predator, an involuntary defensive sting or bite, or unwanted pathogens.

Many of the contributors here have spent DECADES keeping, studying, and perfecting the hobby, the vivs, the frogs, the plants, and the food sources. The point is, they aren't trying to steer you in the wrong direction, but rather, trying to help you successfully maintain your animals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

19jeffro83 said:


> Rainforest Tree Frogs, Poison Dart Frog, Red Eyed Tree Frog, Costa Rica
> Poison Dart Frog Fact Sheet - National Zoo| FONZ
> Most Toxic Creature on the Planet
> Poison Dart Frog Fact Sheet - Woodland Park Zoo, Seattle, WA
> ...


I think you need to read those citations more closely.... only one states that they feed primarily on ants all of the rest have the following pattern in the statement. None of those links provides a good reference for your position. 



> Poison dart frogs feed mostly on spiders and small insects such as ants and termites, which they find on the forest floor using their


And the one that does state they feed primarily on ants is specifically referencing one species for which as an absolute statement it has some faults as there are differences in the gender as well as seasonal source of food as it ignores the prevalence of mites and other invertebrates in the diet... See for example JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie 

I did not see in any of those links where the information was provided that ants are high in protien. 

With respect to providing as natural a habitat as possible, feeding a lower quality food item isn't required as a higher quality food item will supply the nutritional needs of the frogs... I'm not sure of the species you are looking at taking care of, but very few enclosures are set up to closely imitate thier natural habitats. Most enclosures are set up to maximize the amount of time that the frogs would be active as well as providing conditions to stimulate reproduction 24/7/365 regardless of the normal behaviors in the frogs and thier seasonal behaviors. (See for example JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie and search poor quality frogs for those discussions), few hobbists are doing anything to maintain the frogs in the hobby long term.... and as a result we see swings in popularity and loss of genetic diverisity and while I can't remember which one off the top of my head, we have lost one morph to the hobby as it never was well established or maintained. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> \
> Maybe the reason they want them so bad is not for nutrition, but so that they can sequester the ants' poisons.


Or maybe it is because the frog's are hard wired to eat as much as possible whenever food is available as food availability isn't consistent in the wild. If you also tie in that feeding response is tied to movement and prey fitting a specific profile, the avidity of which they eat ants when provided has a much simplier explination. 

Ants do not appear to be the main source of the toxins in many of the dendrobatids, instead mites, beetles and some millipedes provide more of the toxins... 
See Oribatid mites as a major dietary source for alkaloids in poison frogs 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

In consideration of the statements made about frogs ignoring fruit flies to chase down an ant. Our frogs feeding response is triggered by movement. Fruit flies spend a lot of time sitting very stationary while the ants are probably moving and "keeping busy". 
So a frog targeting an ant instead of a fly has nothing to do with nutrition, or wanting the ant more than the fly. It is simply chasing down moving prey.

Many years ago, a colony of ants outside my window found their way in through a crack and established a trail through several of my tinc vivs. I lost a few frogs to ants at that time.
There are so many safer, and proven better, sources of nutrition out there. I have been striving to supply my thumbs and pums with as many different feeders as I can. I've been called the bug guy...so "I am the bug man--coo coo katchew!", but I won't be allowing any ants into my frog room.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Sorry they killed your frogs. How big where the ants? What other foods do ou raise? Do you have any experience with termites?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Keep in mind this was 6 or 8 years ago and I'm just going off memory. I believe they were a black ant around 1/8" long. Not more than 3/16".
I have used termites in the past to put weight on a skinny frog in a hurry but have not used them since getting back into the hobby.
I am currently culturing:
Melonogaster fruit flies
The following Isopods
1 Giant orange
2 Dwarf white
3 dwarf gray
4 dwarf purple/junglepods
The following springtails
1 tiny blues
2 giant black tomocerus
3 temperate whites
4 Pinks (my fave)
5 limited success with James New Pearls (they were contaminated by a phorrid fly and I need to isolate a clean culture)

I am enjoying getting starter cultures of everything I can suited for thumbnails and pums. There are so many great choices to work with now. My last time through the hobby all we had available were fruit flies and one type of springtail. Beyond that you could consider the risk of field collecting aphids and just various mixed small bugs.
Here is a summary of what I've learned from the great people here on dendroboard about culturing them. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Ed said:


> Or maybe it is because the frog's are hard wired to eat as much as possible whenever food is available as food availability isn't consistent in the wild. If you also tie in that feeding response is tied to movement and prey fitting a specific profile, the avidity of which they eat ants when provided has a much simplier explination.


The most parsimonious explanation is usually the best and most probable explanation.



Pumilo said:


> In consideration of the statements made about frogs ignoring fruit flies to chase down an ant. Our frogs feeding response is triggered by movement. Fruit flies spend a lot of time sitting very stationary while the ants are probably moving and "keeping busy".
> So a frog targeting an ant instead of a fly has nothing to do with nutrition, or wanting the ant more than the fly. It is simply chasing down moving prey.


That makes sense. Especially if the FFs are dusted, they'll usually just sit there cleaning themselves. I haven't dusted ants, but I don't think they're as focused on their cleanliness as FFs.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

OK, I study ants in Canada. I know the species here don't align with the species in South America, but neither do the fruit flies we feed our frogs. Again I am not advocating for feeding frogs ants, but I do want to include info about ants so people understand a few things about them.
1. Yes SOME ants have the potential to be dangerous to frogs. Others however are docile creatures that will literally run away from you leaving their brood behind because they don't defend themselves. 
2. Some ants can be disease carriers, however ants meticulously groom themselves, and are studied because of their anti-bacterial, anti-fungus and ant-virus properties. Often a diseased ant or parasitized ant is either killed or expelled from a colony to prevent disease from attacking a colony. 
3. There are 120000 species of ants on earth. There are 771 species of ants in North America. Yes not all have the best nutritional value as they are hard chitinous species that need armour for ant warfare and predation. Others however are soft bodied, live in subterranean nests and would be quite nutritious, there are several studies that have found Bears relying heavily on certain species of ants during specific times of the year (they eat both the adults and the larvae, larvae being easier to digest, but the adults are also important as a food source).

I will once again state, ants are not the easiest to keep, ants can be dangerous to lots of things if you are not knowledgeable about the species you are working with, but the potential for a secondary feeder (along the lines of isopods) is there for someone with the Knowledge to try with very little danger. Is it recommended to grab the common ant out on the side walk NO. Is it possible a species of ant is out there that could be used, yes. Is it probably easier to get a ton of isopod types along with fruit flies and collembola, YES. 

And I agree that the frogs probably zoomed in on the ants because they were different and new, something not recognized, but it was still an amazingly different hunting behaviour compared to anything I have ever seen.

Ok, Thanks for reading!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Glasious said:


> 2. Some ants can be disease carriers, however ants meticulously groom themselves, and are studied because of their anti-bacterial, anti-fungus and ant-virus properties. Often a diseased ant or parasitized ant is either killed or expelled from a colony to prevent disease from attacking a colony.


This doesn't change the point that ants are also known vectors for parasites with an indirect lifecycle to target other hosts (see for example JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie). Any collected invertebrate can be a vector for coccidia. 




Glasious said:


> 3. There are 120000 species of ants on earth. There are 771 species of ants in North America. Yes not all have the best nutritional value as they are hard chitinous species that need armour for ant warfare and predation. Others however are soft bodied, live in subterranean nests and would be quite nutritious, there are several studies that have found Bears relying heavily on certain species of ants during specific times of the year (they eat both the adults and the larvae, larvae being easier to digest, but the adults are also important as a food source).


In some of the literature there is some question as to the nutritional value of the adult ants (and some references explicity state this (see https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/wnan/index.php/wnan/article/viewFile/1252/1109 ) and that it appears that the bears actually target the pupae, larva and eggs with a surprising efficiency. The data on the importance of the adult ants may also be skewed because most of the data comes from examining scat which isn't going to show soft bodied larva, or eggs that are consumed as well. See the above linked article for the comments. In the above linked article the exoskeleton of the adult ants passed through with little or no digestion which indicates that they are not accessing the protein bound up in the chitin (but the article states that they don't have any idea on what nutrients are available to the bears) although this is an interesting tidbit


> had consumed 2.1 kg (wet weight) of _Formica, _approximately 7840 workers and 54,700 brood (Seid 1997). The
> value of this meal was about 695 calories


 as it gives an idea on the targeted feeding on the ant broods versus the adults. 



Glasious said:


> And I agree that the frogs probably zoomed in on the ants because they were different and new, something not recognized, but it was still an amazingly different hunting behaviour compared to anything I have ever seen.


I'm not sure that "new" (novel) is appropriate as opposed simply cueing in on the greater amount of movement. 

I have nothing against feeding ants (in fact I suggested a species that has been used by people with success). I challenged the dietary argument provided by the OP as it doesn't match up with what is known about adult ants as a food source compared to other feeders. 

Ed


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Look I agree with your points, but my points also have merit and refuting them at every turn with information that is specific to a few species of ants doesn't cover the other hundreds of species out there.
Yes, I would agree bears eat the larvae. I stated that full out. But the adults are also eaten (My supervisor studies Grizzly Bears, I study ants) I have seen first hand how the feeding on ant larva works, however, the adults also provide nutrients. Yes, large agressive more "armoured" ants such as _Formica_ aren't as nutritious as one would think.
However, there are other ant genera, such as_ Lasius_ that are softer bodied and would therefore be expected to be more easier to digest and therefore more nutritious. Most nutritional studies of ants study the common obvious genera but neglect many other genera. Much more research is needed on the numerous species and genera in North America and even the world before you can outright say: All ants are not nutritious.
And I can't argue that wild caught invertebrates could be vectors for disease, I never argued that, but I will argue that there are actually few ant species that are vectors for disease. Does that mean their isn't the chance that a frog could contract a disease from being fed ants, No.
I guess in the end I'm not trying to argue as much as provide info. 
As for me saying that the locked onto the ants, well, to me it was different then hunting fruit flies. I have watched my frogs intently for hours. I have seen fruit flies quickly move pass them with out even noticing. The time long ago when I had used ants, the frogs actively moved toward the slow moving docile ants I had used. I have no clue why, but that is what I saw.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Glasious said:


> Look I agree with your points, but my points also have merit and refuting them at every turn with information that is specific to a few species of ants doesn't cover the other hundreds of species out there.
> Yes, I would agree bears eat the larvae. I stated that full out. But the adults are also eaten (My supervisor studies Grizzly Bears, I study ants) I have seen first hand how the feeding on ant larva works, however, the adults also provide nutrients. Yes, large agressive more "armoured" ants such as _Formica_ aren't as nutritious as one would think.
> However, there are other ant genera, such as_ Lasius_ that are softer bodied and would therefore be expected to be more easier to digest and therefore more nutritious. Most nutritional studies of ants study the common obvious genera but neglect many other genera. Much more research is needed on the numerous species and genera in North America and even the world before you can outright say: All ants are not nutritious.
> And I can't argue that wild caught invertebrates could be vectors for disease, I never argued that, but I will argue that there are actually few ant species that are vectors for disease. Does that mean their isn't the chance that a frog could contract a disease from being fed ants, No.
> ...


I am not refuting you.. you have made statements on information provided in the thread that in my opinion needed to be discussed further (and phrased in a manner that appears to be refuting the information provided by others). I have repeatedly pointed out that ants are considered to be a poorer source of nutrition that other feeders and provided citations to that effect. In response you have made repeated comments that they must be nutritious (which I have yet to say is not true) which is very different than what I was saying.. 

You have also tied questionable statements together.. for example 



Glasious said:


> Others however are soft bodied, live in subterranean nests and would be quite nutritious, there are several studies that have found Bears relying heavily on certain species of ants during specific times of the year (they eat both the adults and the larvae, larvae being easier to digest, but the adults are also important as a food source).


As an example in the exerpt cited above you are implying several things... 1) that soft bodied ants must have a high nutritional content 2) that the adult ants must be important as a food source 3) implying that bears rely on soft bodied ants. 

These three points are at the best questionable and not supported in the literature I could readily access. As an example, do you have any references that supply a nutritional breakdown of softer bodied ants (softer bodied also seems to be a very subjective term) or is that an opinion being stated as a fact? Do you have any evidence that the frogs are unable to digest harder bodied ants as efficiently as softer bodied ants? I have been referring to ants being considered to be a poorer quality food item, and you have repeatedly made subjective statements about more nutritious each time I have made that comment. I have provided citations that support my statement and you haven't supported your point and then complain when I challenge the statements. 

I don't see the need to break down points two and/or three as I think the example I made already is sufficient to point out what was catching my attention. 

You complain that you have points and that I'm refuting you each time yet you don't seem to have a problem with "refuting" other people (see you post above this one). I'm not really interested in beating this back and forth, but the structure of your statements raised some red flags on my side of the discussion as it looks like you were using implication as a method to correct information being provided by other people including myself. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Ed, 
I guess what I was trying to say, is that it is possible that there are some ants out there that are more nutritious then others. Yes the studies that have been done have pointed out that some ants are poor food sources, however there are species that have not been examined. Termites are good food sources because they are soft bodied and easier to digest, therefore it would make sense that softer bodied ants would be better food sources compared to hard bodied ants. Sadly finding references of nutritional value of specific species is difficult (often they just use the identification of the genus Formica). Furthermore, there have been few studies that have actually identified the specific species of ants being eaten by bears or other animals. My own experience I have seen that the hardest bodied ants are ignored, softer available ant species are eaten. That being said, you are right, I don't have references available on the nutritional value of each species. At the moment I don't have the time, but I could post some references in the next day or two that would provide some information about the the consumption of ants by several animals, as well as the disease response of ants. I will also state I didn't mean to refute your statements as much as expand on the issue that because of the lack of research on many of the species out there it is possible that there could be an ant species or several that may be a useful food source.
-James


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Just a few Links that show some ant species have potential for good nutrition and are important food sources for dart frogs in some areas:

Shows weaver ants as more nutritious then termites from the same area:
http://www.sciencedirect.com.login.ezproxy.library.ualberta.ca/science/article/pii/S0963996909003317 

This paper shows that some _Ameerga_ species do accumulate some of their toxines from eating myrmicine ants along with oribatid mites: http://pubs.acs.org.login.ezproxy.library.ualberta.ca/doi/full/10.1021/np900094v

This paper shows for the species _Ranitomeya virolinensis_ ants make up an important part of their diet second only to collembola in number of individuals eaten.
http://vnweb.hwwilsonweb.com.login....l;hwwilsonid=1HA45NCN4XSMXQA3DINCFGGADUNGIIV0

I again am not arguing that all ants are good food sources, but that there is the potential for there to be a few species that maybe are.

-James


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Glasious- you seem very passionate and knowledgeable about ants. I think you would have a better chance than most of the rest of us at finding a specie that is attainable, non-aggressive, non-invasive, and nutritious/digestible, and then figuring out how to culture it.

If you'd be willing to, it could probably prove beneficial to everyone, as well as proving the viability of ants as feeders in the most concrete way possible. Without any sort of knowledge or info/guidelines, the average hobbyist who can't ID ants by sight (myself included, to be sure) is most likely headed for some problems at worst, or limited success at best.

I for one would be interested to see what you could come up with, I'm sure the OP and others would as well. No one is really arguing that there is the potential for a viable species somewhere out there.. I think Justin/Golden State Mantellas put it best what most of us were trying to get at, and like I said, the average hobbyist striking out blindly into the ant world looking for feeders would probably end up being a long shot and a whole lot of trial and error. With some help & guidance, the chances could be a lot higher. Take care.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Glasious said:


> Ed,
> I guess what I was trying to say, is that it is possible that there are some ants out there that are more nutritious then others. Yes the studies that have been done have pointed out that some ants are poor food sources, however there are species that have not been examined. Termites are good food sources because they are soft bodied and easier to digest, therefore it would make sense that softer bodied ants would be better food sources compared to hard bodied ants. Sadly finding references of nutritional value of specific species is difficult (often they just use the identification of the genus Formica). Furthermore, there have been few studies that have actually identified the specific species of ants being eaten by bears or other animals. My own experience I have seen that the hardest bodied ants are ignored, softer available ant species are eaten. That being said, you are right, I don't have references available on the nutritional value of each species. At the moment I don't have the time, but I could post some references in the next day or two that would provide some information about the the consumption of ants by several animals, as well as the disease response of ants. I will also state I didn't mean to refute your statements as much as expand on the issue that because of the lack of research on many of the species out there it is possible that there could be an ant species or several that may be a useful food source.
> -James


James, 
Thanks for this response. I would much rather pool resources than argue past one another. Don't feel rushed but any information can be of value. I've worked on various aspects of this from the opposite end, in looking at the nutritional needs of not only dendrobatids but herps as well.. I've been accumulating a library on this for close to twenty years now.. 

Chitin and it's digestiability is somewhat contentious at the moment as there are extreme differences even within insectivores (ranging from 0% to more than 45% (and in some birds as high as 85%) digestible). So soft bodied may not be as direct a comparision. As an example there was a good study done comparing growth of a lizard fed a diet of crickets, mealworms or both. See for example The effects of prey species on food conversion efficiency and growth of an insectivorous lizard - Rich - 2008 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library. The dogma in the hobby, has that growth is better on crickets because they are softer and contain less chitin but the results were the opposite. The best growth was on the mealworm only diet or the combined diet.. 

Ed


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Ed,
I agree comparing notes is probably a better way of communicating. And I truthfully wasn't communicating exactly what I wanted to say either until the end there. 

In the end I think the merits of using ants as a food source has potential, but would take work to find the best species. That being said, its a theoretical discussion as it maybe difficult or time consuming to do and in the end I was mostly just trying to put out information on Ants that I thought needed to be explained. Nutritional value for different species would have to be examined to provide enough detailed information to make an argument to use a particular species and responsible husbandry would have to be used.

If I see anymore information I will definitely put it out there. Good discussion 
-James


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Did you even do a search on the boards before coming up with this idea?
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/70163-ant-problem.html

I am not the only one who has lost a frog to ants.

Ants lay down a scent trail that allows others of their colony to follow to an area of interest to the ants. That is why you will see lines of ants going to and from a source. 
Even if you just toss in a few now and then, any escapees from the vivarium will lay down a scent trail as they wander off. Other ants from other colonies can follow the same trail if it passes through "their" territory. They would be defensive of their territory and could follow that trail right into the vivarium.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Okapi said:


> Did you even do a search on the boards before coming up with this idea?
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/70163-ant-problem.html
> 
> I am not the only one who has lost a frog to ants.
> ...


This potential problem was already covered in a previous post. In the end: No, adding a few ants to a viv will not attract more ants from out side a viv unless you already have an ant problem in your house or viv. If your viv is in the territory of an ant colony you already have a problem and this should be dealt with. As for the other potential pros and cons of using ants they were also posted and many agreed that utilizing ants as a food source would have to be done with the utmost care, much research and knowledge, and in the end would only be useful once more research was done. The merits of the nutritional value of ants compared to other more available foods was also discussed and again, without more research, it is hard to support that ants would be useful nutritionally when compared to fruit flies.


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## Bonobo (Jun 7, 2009)




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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Glasious said:


> Ed,
> I agree comparing notes is probably a better way of communicating. And I truthfully wasn't communicating exactly what I wanted to say either until the end there.
> 
> In the end I think the merits of using ants as a food source has potential, but would take work to find the best species. That being said, its a theoretical discussion as it maybe difficult or time consuming to do and in the end I was mostly just trying to put out information on Ants that I thought needed to be explained. Nutritional value for different species would have to be examined to provide enough detailed information to make an argument to use a particular species and responsible husbandry would have to be used.
> ...


Hi James, 

If you want to see a slightly interesting sidebar of ant studies, look up the sexy faeces hypothesis and relevent information (as an example see http://jcmaerz.myweb.uga.edu/lab/publications/Karuzas et al 2004 AnimalBehaviour.pdf). 

I also don't know that I would be concerned that they have to be the most nutritious unless a person was intending to use them as the majority of the frog's diet. If they are only a supplemental inclusion into the diet, I don't know that quality has to matter at all. I do know that people have used Tetramorium caespitum as a feeder for various dendrobatids but if this species is collected and just dumped into the tank, they are fairly aggressive. 

Ed


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> Hi James,
> 
> If you want to see a slightly interesting sidebar of ant studies, look up the sexy faeces hypothesis and relevent information (as an example see http://jcmaerz.myweb.uga.edu/lab/publications/Karuzas et al 2004 AnimalBehaviour.pdf).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the paper, an intriguing read, and kinda funny. 
_Tetramorium caespitum_ is a pretty common ant if people have used it, often it is called the sidewalk ant. They are a bit more aggressive then ants of a similar stature. I sadly am to far north for _Tetramorium_, though some _Myrmica_ species are very similar in size and demeanor. I will look into this, though all the ants in my neighborhood have went dormant for the winter unless I get a few warm days in the next week or two.
Thanks again!
-James


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It's a shame your not a little further south as I've seen the leaf cutters native to the New Jersey Pine Barrens. _Trachymyrmex septentrionalis _and can usually find the nests each year. I have yet to find them on our property as of yet. 

Ed


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Yeah I miss a great swath of very cool species. There are 92 species in my province, ~40 of which are from the genus _Formica_. Ants are great, but the diversity I deal with isn't as spectacular as further south. I still get to study interesting species however! _Trachmyrmex_ and _Pyramica_ are two genera I would love to study in more detail.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm glad this thread has changed direction and is more of a discussion than an argument. Which was my intention in the beginning, To try and gather good info.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Glasious said:


> Yeah I miss a great swath of very cool species. There are 92 species in my province, ~40 of which are from the genus _Formica_. Ants are great, but the diversity I deal with isn't as spectacular as further south. I still get to study interesting species however! _Trachmyrmex_ and _Pyramica_ are two genera I would love to study in more detail.


Here is one of the pictures of _Trachymyrmex septentrionalis _we got. Not the best but the field of foucus was so shallow the ants could walk out of it before you could click the shutter.They were cutting leaves off of beach plum(Prunus maritima)


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Too cool Ed. I never new there were leaf cutters in nj. I'll be keeping an eye out for them. Do you think they could be found at island beach state park? How far south in to the pine barrens are you? Do you ever bump into pine lizards or pine snakes? I've only seen one lizard to date and never saw one of the snakes.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Very Cool Ed. 
Thanks for sharing!


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## winyfrog (May 30, 2009)

Great information. minus the drama of course 

I was curious about this today I opened one of my springtail cultures (that I had left out on the counter) and it was swarming with small ants eating them, I was hoping to be able to save some by adding it to my viv and letting my leucs eat the ants. 

question answered I would never want my frogs to get stung or bitten in which case these ants are very aggressive critters. 

Good Luck with your farming.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

winyfrog said:


> Great information. *minus the drama of course*


Me and Jeff talked via PM, that was a misunderstanding on my part... I thought his comment was referring to the people I quoted (Ed, Tony, Brent, etc) which would have been a pretty brash statement from a newbie. I'll foot the blame for that one, MY B


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Glasious said:


> Thanks for the paper, an intriguing read, and kinda funny.
> _Tetramorium caespitum_ is a pretty common ant if people have used it, often it is called the sidewalk ant. They are a bit more aggressive then ants of a similar stature. I sadly am to far north for _Tetramorium_, though some _Myrmica_ species are very similar in size and demeanor. I will look into this, though all the ants in my neighborhood have went dormant for the winter unless I get a few warm days in the next week or two.
> Thanks again!
> -James


Some other interesting notes 
Redford KH, Dorea JG. 1984. The nutritional value of
invertebrates with emphasis on ants and termites as food​for mammals. J Zool Lond 203:385–395.
 
And with respect to another ant specialist http://hydrodictyon.eeb.uconn.edu/people/schwenk/SherbrookeSchwenkPhryno08.pdf 

Ed


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Hey Ed, good posts. 
I have a lab mate who Studied Phyrosoma and she got some really cool data on their habitat selection. I haven't read that other paper, will have to look at it. good posts!
-James


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Glasious said:


> Hey Ed, good posts.
> I have a lab mate who Studied Phyrosoma and she got some really cool data on their habitat selection. I haven't read that other paper, will have to look at it. good posts!
> -James


There are a couple of obscure papers about keeping them long-term in captivity (if I remember correctly including two that discuss multigenerational care) which is how I ran across the paper above. When I lived out west they were one of my favorite finds. 

Ed


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