# Plants for a cloud forest vivarium?



## zBrinks

Anyone have any recommendations for plant species for a 24''x18''x36 cloud forest type vivarium? It will have internal air circulation and LED lighting, so it should be nice and bright.


----------



## JoshH

You keeping it biotopic and neotropical? Tons of pleurothallids, most anthuriums, blueberries (Macleania, Disterigma, Themistoclesia, Sphyrospermum), begonias such as B. sp. Pacto and Lita....


From Asia ya got epiphytic Rhododendrons and Impatians, begonias, nepenthes, hoyas, the usual orchids...

Depends how high in elavation you want to go. Most of Ecuageneras tropicals are fairly high elevation cloud forest plants, however many will die if warmer then 70 or so....


----------



## zBrinks

I'd like to keep it neotropical. I think temps will typically be in the low-mid 70s, although I have considered installing a chiller to the misting water source (depends on how much I want to play with this setup).


----------



## ashb

At Monteverde in Costa Rica every tree was covered in a thick layer of mosses and Peltapteris peltatum. Orchids galore along with some cool peperomias, anthuriums, bromeliads, marcgravias, etc... 

As Josh said, Ecuagenera has some ideal plants for a set up you're planning. I'll PM you.

Here are some pictures from Monteverde to give you an idea:


----------



## zBrinks

That branch in the last photo is basically what I'm trying to emulate. This will probably be the last 'in-depth' vivarium for me for awhile (I won't start it until a few other projects are finished up), so I'm in no hurry to get this thing done. 

Do you think I'll be able to plant the vivarium to look like that while maintaining it at room temperature? I can add a chiller to the ultrasonic humidifier and misting water source if need be, but I wouldn't mind avoiding the extra cost if I can.


----------



## Spaff

For orchids, look into the Pleurothallid Alliance. Some warm growing genera/ species off the top of my head... many types of Pleurothallis, Restrepia, Masdevallias like floribunda and discoidea, many Scaphosepalum, Lepanthes such as telipogoniflora and calodictyon. You may also want to check into the genus Trichoceros. They're in the same subtribe as Telipogons, but they are reportedly much easier to keep. They also seem to be much more tolerant of a wide temperature range.


----------



## ashb

Spaff said:


> For orchids, look into the Pleurothallid Alliance. Some warm growing genera/ species off the top of my head... many types of Pleurothallis, Restrepia, Masdevallias like floribunda and discoidea, many Scaphosepalum, *Lepanthes such as telipogoniflora and calodictyon*. You may also want to check into the genus Trichoceros. They're in the same subtribe as Telipogons, but they are reportedly much easier to keep. They also seem to be much more tolerant of a wide temperature range.


Exactly what I was thinking. Oh don't forget Stelis sp. or Porroglossum sp.

Zach you can definitely keep some of the species at room temperature, but a little cooler would be ideal.


----------



## zBrinks

Besides cooling the water source for the vivarium, what are some easy ways of cooling down a vivarium? Any suggestions?


----------



## frogparty

Racinaea crispa!!! It's from colombian cloud forests and the coolest brom ever.


----------



## zBrinks

zBrinks said:


> Besides cooling the water source for the vivarium, what are some easy ways of cooling down a vivarium? Any suggestions?


 Looks like I'll be performing surgery on a dorm fridge soon


----------



## frogparty

There are smaller aquarium chillers that insert through a bulkhead that I think would be perfect for your needs


----------



## zBrinks

I completely forgot about this exhibit when I visited the ABG. Talk about some inspiration!


----------



## curlykid

have you ever thought of doing a Peruvian cloud forest with a group of variabilis? you could do a lot of nice mini orchids, mosses/ferns, a few broms. if i were to do a biotopic display, that would be it.


----------



## zBrinks

I have a fairly large group of Standard Lamasi, and I think I'd like to give them nicer digs.


----------



## curlykid

gotcha. that frog is nice!


----------



## fieldnstream

zBrinks said:


> I completely forgot about this exhibit when I visited the ABG. Talk about some inspiration!


I love that room...refreshing after spending hours in the big conservatory looking for frogs. Excited to see how the build turns out.


----------



## zBrinks

This build is going to be one of those ongoing, slow projects. I'm thinking how I can incorporate a small chiller, misting system, ultrasonic humidifier, temp/humidity control, and air circulation all in the cabinet. I want this as a stand-alone display - it'll reside in the frog room for now, but I want to be able to move it in the future. I've got plenty of 'cool' ideas bouncing around in my head now 

Anyone have any idea what genus/species a lot of those pendant type ferns seen in pictures are, and how big they actually are?


----------



## ashb

I actually think they are epiphytic bryophyte species, the fern most prevalent in the forest that I noticed was Peltapteris peltatum (fine leaf).


----------



## zBrinks

What day/night temps should I be shooting for with this type of setup?


----------



## Spaff

If you want true "cool" cloud forest conditions, lower 70s in the day and a night drop to middle 50s, at least from an orchid standpoint. With the orchids ash and I mentioned, upper 70s for the day down into the middle to lower 60s should be ok.

I was just reading on a European CP forum how they've cooled highland Nepenthes tanks using an aquarium chiller hooked up to a water cooled radiator. 

One of these: Water Cooling Radiators at HeatsinkFactory.com

They mount a computer fan to the radiator blowing warm viv air in and run the chilled water through it. It results in cool air being blown out of the radiator into the viv.


----------



## zBrinks

That looks interesting - any chance of a link to the thread?


----------



## Spaff

Here it is: My cooling unit - Carnivorous Plants UK

This guy uses a mini freezer with a pump to move the cooled water to the radiator, but the freezer pump contraption can be replaced with an aquarium chiller.

The second post on page 2 shows the chiller method.


----------



## zBrinks

Cool, thanks! Ahaha - cool - get it?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I was just thinking of recommending a small aquarium chiller running water in a closed loop through a computer watercooling radiator. I don't know how you'ld control the viv temperatures on a setup like this though. Most of the time those chillers have an internal temperature probe. You could keep the water in the radiator lines at a set temp and then play with it until you got the temps in the viv just right. Most of these radiators are pretty big and bulky though. I'd want that all out of sight below/behind the tank. I guess you could have a large intake and return vent. If going the water cooling route, make sure to fill your lines with distilled water. In a computer you generally ad some sort of antifreeze to your loop, but this may not be a risk you want to take with forgs. I suspect as long as the radiator was place somewhere outside the tank where should it ever leak(mine is in my pc with electrical components and never has leaked), then you should be safe. The other trouble I'm seeing though is how much air you might need to move through the radiator in order to achieve the desired temperature drop. These radiators are packed with tight fins and need some significant airflow through them. You'ld just have to tinker a bit with the setup.

Check out something like:

PC Water Cooling Radiators | Page 1 | Sort By: Product Title A-Z - FrozenCPU.com  

For nice pre built radiators. It looks like they have some smaller radiators now, of the 80mm variety. My water cooling pc setup runs a tripple 120mm radiator with 6 fans in a push pull setup.

My idea would be to try maybe a single 80mm radiator with two fans in a push pull setup. You'ld draw air out of the tank somewhere, push it through pvc to the radiator and then back to the tank. You'ld have to cleverly conceal this or of course it would be hideous. You chiller lines would run from the chiller to the radiator and back with some form of a pump in between. You could use a reservoir or have a closed loop with an in line pump. I currently use a smaller model ehiem hobby pump on my computer water cooling system.

Generally I don't think dorm fridges etc work to well as it is really hard to control temps with them and they are really inefficent. I think even a tiny chiller, something in the 1/8th hp rang would be sufficent to cool the small body of air in a viv, but I'm only speculating as I've never done this. I just have plenty of experience working with aquarium chillers on large reef tanks.

Good luck Josh, this looks like a killer idea. I can't wait to see it take shape.


----------



## mattolsen

You could buy a chiller but they're expensive. I'd see if there are any small inexpensive chillers for fish tanks, or someone selling one on craigslist. I also have a ton of monteverde pics if you need for plants. Otherwise try that new air cooling system from zoo med I think.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

mattolsen said:


> You could buy a chiller but they're expensive. I'd see if there are any small inexpensive chillers for fish tanks, or someone selling one on craigslist. I also have a ton of monteverde pics if you need for plants. Otherwise try that new air cooling system from zoo med I think.


Indeed they are a bit pricey, but a worthy investment IMO. I guess craigslist could be a good start, but you never know what you're getting there. I've seen many a beat up worn out coolant leaking chiller for sale on CL. A 1/10 HP unit can be had for about $420, a 1/15th for $350. I really don't know exactly home much pulldown capacity you're going to need for the viv. It would all be based on size of the viv and lighting. Given that its LED lighting and that you're only going to be cooling a relatively small volume of air in the tank, I can't see why you would need all that much. This is a grand experiment that really has me brainstorming ideas.


----------



## zBrinks

I found a small, bulkhead based one (not sure if it's inline) for $125 new. Fortunately, there's a large reefing community in Michigan, so I can probably find one used. This is going to be a fun build - I think I'll make everything look nice and pretty below the stand, too.


----------



## Spaff

Zach, please keep us updated on this. I think this would be very useful for people trying to grow these awesome plants in warmer environments if it produces conditions similar to those in the thread I linked to.


----------



## zBrinks

I will. There are a few more vivaria that will be built previous to me even starting on this one, so I don't plan to even start on it for several months, but I'm already drooling over the potential gadgets and plants I'll get to toy with.


----------



## D3monic

I sent a pm to Azurel, he is in Kalamazoo and is a ex reefer. He might have a chiller laying around.


----------



## zBrinks

Anyone have any inkling as to what brom this is? It's amazing!


----------



## ashb

zBrinks said:


> Anyone have any inkling as to what brom this is? It's amazing!


Vriesea of some sort? It was rather large (>18" across). The red veining was a lot more pronounced than the picture depicts too.


----------



## zBrinks

Darn, I was hoping I'd be able to find something like that in the 6-8" range. I'm thinking I'' be building the tank myself, and making it 2'x2'x3', or something similar.


----------



## frogparty

That looks a lot like a heiroglyphica type Vriesea for sure. 
You should try and track down some of the Racinaeas. I have blassii and spiculosa in addition to crispa and they are awesome cloud forest broms. My blassii is pupping now so hopefully when you're ready to plant this I'll have one for you. It's not on fcbs.org, but it looks like a red aerisincola. Also look into the water holding tillandsias. I picked up T. violacea yesterday from bird rock tropicals and it's a really cool looking brom


----------



## Manuran

Looks like a Werauhia to me. It's a genus close to Vriesea and in fact a lot of the species used to be in that genus. If I were to take a guess I would say it is W. ororiensis, or some species close to that. That species is a higher altitude sp. from Costa Rica. The amount of red striping varies a bit, some clones being outstanding. I've also seen a few smaller clones of it. I don't even know if it is in American collections. I would assume there are a few around, but I have never stumbled across any for sale.
There's a nice small Werauhia called hygrometrica, but I've only seen that one in photos. I've never asked around though.

There is a nice small Tillandsia from Peru that while looks different than the pic posted, has nice delicate reds and greens too (although it is spotting instead of striping).
It's a higher elevation plant AND you can get it from Ecuagenera. The species is T. biflora, make sure to ask for one with a lot of spots.

Jason, are your Racinaeas from Bird Rock too? About a decade ago I purchased some from them and they seemed to be the place to go, but they don't seem to update their website about them anymore.


----------



## mcaiger53

I think I came up with a really simple and cheap way to cool a viv, 2 ways actually. When I get home and can use a pc instead of my phone, I will explain it better. The simplest involves small refridgerator and a simple aquarium air pump inside it. The air pump would be ran off a thermostat with a probe inside the viv. The pump would pump the chilled air directly from the fridge, but at a super low volume possibly even through a manifold of several lines into the tank for almost insignificant instant temp change so it won't shock the frogs/plants. And the low air volume shouldn't mess w humidity too much. The fridge would always be on, but if filled w something like water bottles it shouldn't run that much. You might be able to find one small enough to fit inside the stand. The best part is that I think I have a couple digital programmable thermostats w external probes (I think about 3' leads) that I might be able to part w. Hope this helps. 
Mike


----------



## frogparty

No all my racinaea are from eBay for a single seller who gets them from the owner of Kent's bromeliads I think. Phender and I were just at bird rock yesterday and it's really kind of sad. She doesn't have any racinaea anymore nor will she. Her business is really scaled back.


----------



## Manuran

Thanks for the info Jason. Too bad about Bird Rock. At least there are still sources though.


----------



## frogparty

Yeah. Im going to start going to bromeliad society meetings to find the weird and wonderful


----------



## stevenhman

If you could combine everything in a mini-fridge it might work. Just put the bad boy on a timer and fiddle with the on/off cycles to get the temp you want. (like the solar power people do for powering DC fridges)

Lots loops of the 1 in (or bigger) plastic tube inside the fridge with a fan blowing through it might work for keeping air temp down.

If you built the tank yourself out of plywood/fiberglass/epoxy you could also insulate the tank as well. You can use a liquid rubber product like "Rubberizeit!" but silicone does not bond with liquid rubber - you need to use something like 3M 5200 which can get a little pricey when you need to secure stuff everywhere. No idea if GS or pond foam would work. Also - just FYI liquid rubber will bond to glass, but once it gets wet it peels off.

Making the tank out of plywood could also keep the tank from 'sweating' too much. I'm not sure if that is a problem in a warm room with the cool orchid tanks, but I have in my mind a picture of a cool glass of water in a warm room just dripping water.


----------



## JoshH

Why not build the whole thing in a wine chiller? I believe Zac Zamora of Variance was the first to do it successfully and now Justin Yeager is working on a low temp build as well...


----------



## penfold

I know cold water aquariums are usually made of acrylic rather than glass, because acrylic insulates better which reduces sweating and heat gain. You could also put foam insulation over the bottom and back panels.

A compressor type chiller would have the power necessary to maintain low temperatures in any tank, but with a well insulated tank, you may be able to get by with a smaller and cheaper peltier type chiller.

Also, here is a build involving a portable AC unit:

Cool vivarium @ Orchid Karma

I have no idea if this is an efficient method for cooling a tank, but it seems to work well for her.


----------



## zBrinks

Here's an interesting idea:

Cool vivarium - Orchid Forum by The Orchid Source


----------



## frogparty

It seems like too much space needed. I'd rather build a false wall into the tank and just have the bulkhead chiller operating there. It would only need to be a few inches. So if your tank is 2ft deep you could use two inches of that for the false back to be chilled


----------



## zBrinks

It looks like I have a few basic options:

- blow air from the terrarium through a freezer, and back again
- use chiller and run chilled water through radiator, which is incorporated to an air circulation system located externally
- use chiller and run chilled water through radiator, radiator is located inside the vivarium

Which of the above setups seems preferable, and why?

Currently, I really like number 2, as it would allow me to keep everything outside the vivarium, maximizing usable space, as well as allowing everything to be worked on much more easily.


----------



## frogparty

From those options I'd choose 2 as well


----------



## zBrinks

I've also thought about having a moving water feature in the bottom, and just chilling that. I'm just not sure how much it would actually cool down the entire vivarium.


----------



## frogparty

I think if you are planning on fogging it multiple times a day you could just use no heat lighting like LED and then just chill the water you are fogging with to 55 or 60 degrees


----------



## zBrinks

Does an ultrasonic humidifier heat the water significantly? I know they do not warm the water as much as a warm air humidifier, but I'm not sure if it would warm it to any significant amount or not.

I think I need to do some experimenting.


----------



## wimvanvelzen

In my hillstream viv I can cool the air in the tank by about 5C/9F by putting the large fan on. 
If that much air movement is a problem, you could use it outside the tank to cool an amount of water, which can cool the tank if you use it as some sort of radiator; you just need a very small pump to get the water around, as a pump heats the water. May be no pump at all would even work, as warmer and cooler water create their own circulation.
May be you could put a smaller viv into a somewhat larger, fill the space in between with water with some fans on top? 

Tap water by the way tends to be relatively cool, at least here. May be you can use that to good effect?


----------



## Spaff

Ultrasonic humidifiers don't heat the water vapor that is emitted in my experience, but I don't think using one alone will give you the temp drop you need. I run one all day when the lights are on in an orchid tank, and I couldn't even keep intermediate growing Masdevallias alive, even my M. floribunda was struggling. I've since moved that to my fridge tank, and it is improving greatly. 

Also, I'm not convinced that fans alone do much in the way of cooling the air. I think they are necessary for air movement, but I've had the opposite experience with fans. I use computer fans for my orchids housed in aquariums, but I found they weren't giving me enough air movement in my cool fridge tank. I used a small desk fan instead, and it keeps temps. 10-12 degrees above room temp if I'm not running the fridge on a thermostat.

I'd say #2 is the one I'd go for. Maybe you could build your background a few inches off the back wall, giving you some space for the radiator to fit. You might be able to integrate the radiator into the background, so that the output resembles part of the background and the rest of the components are behind the false wall.


----------



## wimvanvelzen

hi Spaff, to make my experience clear - I use quite a large table fan to lower the temperature by evaporation. Computer fans are not powerful enough indeed.


----------



## Spaff

Oh I understand now! Yes, evaporative coolers do work very well to cool temps. as long as the air is dry enough to increase evaporation.


----------



## mcaiger53

hey zach,
I think that there are possible pro's and con's for each option.
pros:
1. I think the simplest, cheapest (both initially and to run long term), easiest to hide, and the most effective. also, you can experiment with entering air temp by adjusting amount of insulation on the supply line to the viv.
2. almost as effective as 1 but easier to control the temp of air coming into the viv, and can recirculate the "humid air" from the viv back to the viv.
3. a little simpler than 2, but unless you use a thermally conductive material for the backround, and insulate the glass behind the radiator. dont really see this one being as effective.
cons: 
1. don't really see a con? unless you can't control the temp of the supply air or too much volume entering tank and possibly "shock" plants/animals.
2. seems the most complicated and expensive. I think you will need to drain the air circulation system (mostly at the heat exchanger/radiator) when the warm humid air from the viv hits the heat exchanger in the air circulation system I would think that the humidity would accumulate on the heat exchanger/radiator which would at the least, eventually slow the airflow, not to mention, breed bacteria, possibly rust, etc...
3. I think that this will be the least effective. if you used something like GS, cork, or epiweb, it would in affect insulate the viv from the heat exchanger and greatly reduce the efficiency. also, unless it is insulated from the back of the tank, while it would have some affect on the viv, I think that most of the cooling would happen on the back of the glass, and condensation would possibly occur on the back of the tank (outside). 
hope this helps, mike


----------



## mcaiger53

I read the thread you linked on the orchid forum, and it is a lot like what I was trying to explain a couple days ago. sorry that I didn't follow through, I was in the hospital on pain meds when I wrote the first bit on my phone and completely forgot about the rest. I would slightly change a couple things.
1. I don't think that I would recycle the air from the viv through the freezer/refridgerator and back to the viv. I agree with the concept of keeping the humid air from the viv, but don't think that it will work, which is why he said that he had to "defrost" the freezer every 3rd week, all/most of the humidity in the air will be lost due to condensation in the freezer. I would have 2 lines going from the freezer to the viv, letting the viv vent through the top to the room, and having another open ended line "intake" going in to the the freezer. possibly having some sort of filter on the end (outside the freezer) just to stop things like dust, spiders, and the unavoidable fruit fly from entering the freezer. 
2. as long as you could get enough volume (I think that you could)
I would at least consider the aquarium pump idea, I think that it will have a couple possible benefits. while the pump does make a lot of noise, if it was inside a freezer/refridgerator it would much quieter. I would run two aquarium air lines from the freezer through the bottom of the tank, experimenting with the amount of insulation over the line to achieve the desired air temp entering the viv. once the air line enters the tank, I would run it through a manifold system (would use plastic, not metal) like what fish stores use to feed multiple tanks off a single pump. say you ran it through 4-10 lines, you could cool the entire viv at once instead of having one spot where a lot of freezing air would enter the viv until the entire viv is cooled enough to trigger the thermostat. If using a GS backround, you can simply lay the lines between layers of GS, ending it in different spots, say under some drift wood, in the leaf litter, anywhere in the backround, and also at the top out of sight behind the trim. I think that this way it would cool the whole viv evenly instead of having one extremely cold spot in the tank. the second line entering the tank I would coil in the water under the false bottom, making sure the end of the line is above the water to avoid constant gurgling. this line would not only cool the water (say an inch or so in the false bottom), but would move a small amount of air through the substrate (if you use something like ABG). I would place valves on the lines before they enter the tank to control the amount of air that goes through the substrate and directly into the viv. 
3. I would place the air pump in the bottom of the freezer, which ever style of air mover you choose. then fill the freezer with water bottles to the top. have the warm/room air enter the freezer at the top so it has to pass over the water bottles before it is pumped out. this will make the freezer run much less than if it was empty. if you use a refridgerator, fill it with beer bottles/cans. (2 birds, one stone!)
4. I would think hard about the placement of the sensor for the thermostat. he had it all the way at the top of the tank, but it seems like it would make it much too cold at the bottom (for the frogs anyways) while the circulation system was running. 
I haven't tried this my self, just an idea floating around in my head. I think that I will have to try this in the future if you don't. 
thanks for reading my rambling, tell me what you think. 
mike


----------



## JimO

I was going to suggest having a false bottom and chilling the water within it. The more water you have, the larger the heat sink you can maintain and the less potential for sudden variation in temps. Maintaining the temps will depend on the difference between room temps and what you are trying to achieve in the viv. 

Water has a specific heat that is roughly 4x that of air, so that to remove the same amount of heat from the viv, you would need to cool 4x the volume of air than you would the volume of water to achieve an overall heat transfer of the same amount. Also, water transfers heat more efficiently, so if you run the water from the viv through a chiller, you would get the most efficient transfer. Second would probably be running chilled water through a radiator or tubing within the false bottom. You could also have a sump connected to the false bottom, cool the water in the sump and recirculate it through the false bottom by running the chilled water through the moving water feature. The advantage of this would be that all the chilling equipment would be outside the viv and could be controlled more closely. With a sump, you could also chill a larger volume of water and you wouldn't have to decrease the temp as much to transfer the same amount of heat as you would with a smaller volume.

Sorry to ramble, but being a former reefer and someone who likes to tinker, I have ideas running through my head faster than I can type.

You could also try evaporative cooling by using one of those old reef tank sumps with the rotating sprinkler head over the bioballs. If the sump lid is removed, you can evaporate quite a lot of water. The latent heat of vaporization for water is 600 times the specific heat, thus, it takes as much heat to evaporate 1 mL of water as it does to change 600 mL by 1 degree C. So, if you could evaporate a few hundred mL per day, it would be like chilling over 20 L of water by 5 degrees C. You just have to remember to refill the sump daily with distilled water.

I used this method a lot with my reef tanks. On particularly hot days I'd also, toss a frozen water bottle in the sump.

Anyway, Zach, good luck.


zBrinks said:


> I've also thought about having a moving water feature in the bottom, and just chilling that. I'm just not sure how much it would actually cool down the entire vivarium.


----------



## D3monic

What about a ecoweb drip wall with a chiller in the sump?


----------



## zBrinks

I was able to locate a nice looking wine chiller that measures 19"x19"x25", and is set into a wood cabinet. It should be here next week. After it arrives, I'm going to construct a glass vivarium that snugly fits inside the wine chiller (leaving space at the top for leds, a fan, and a misting head).

Because this will be enclosed in a wine chiller, I was thinking of have the top be 80% screen, and just having a fan circulating air inside the entire chiller (instead of being plumbed directly into the vivarium. Thoughts?


----------



## KeroKero

Have you been following Justin Yeager's build on facebook? I know with his tank, as well as Zac's that was his inspiration, the fridge itself has been made into the tank rather than trying to put on in there. These are meant to keep much cooler temps than you're looking for so you can even have lights in the tank without the fridge working very hard. Zac's tank had a number of fluorescent tubes mounted around the front door, and Justin has LED flood lights in his tank... I'm not fond of how he's broken the insulation in the top of the fridge to use those lights but it was that or have lights 4+" lower. There are fish LED light set ups (on their own heat sinks if you want, but probably wouldn't need it IN the fridge) that could be used mounted to the inside of the top. Even with this break in insulation, his tank is barely getting above 60F even on it's warmest setting, so that may be a bit lower than you wanted.

Check how the fridge works - the fridge itself may have some air circulation going on. Does your fridge also maintain specific humidity? The hard part is usually setting up these tanks without blocking some of this circulation too much.

I've been thinking about this set up for some of the cool growing gesneriads I'd like to work with that would croak under the hot set ups I have for the warm growing gesneriads I grow right now!


----------



## zBrinks

I'll have to look at the wine chiller a little closer when it arrives. It might be easier just to create a substrate barrier at the front, and use the chiller itself as a vivarium. I'm just excited to get such a deal on it (and be able to fit another vivarium on top )


----------



## 31drew31

I see you've already located a wine chiller, but thought I'd still post this anyways. 

AC for Highland Nepenthes Terrarium


----------



## Bokfan1

Heliamphora and highland nepenthes would do GREAT in that environment!


----------



## Wim van den Berg

frogparty said:


> Racinaea crispa!!! It's from colombian cloud forests and the coolest brom ever.


I,sure like these beauty,s


----------



## Lbacha

I just got back from Thailand and I visited Doi Inthanon national park which is the tallest mountain in Thailand at the top it is a cloud forest everywhere you looked was moss covered in more moss along with pitcher plants and even a sphagnum bog at the top, what I found amazing though is that they are currently in their dry season and everything was dry as a bone, the miss was like the decorative dry moss you buy in bags and the plants while still green we're dry as well, I don't think we always think of these dry seasons but it looks like a key part of the season, I did bring a bunch if dry moss back so I'm hoping for some neat plants to come from it when I add some water.

Len


----------



## Wim van den Berg

Lbacha said:


> I just got back from Thailand and I visited Doi Inthanon national park which is the tallest mountain in Thailand at the top it is a cloud forest everywhere you looked was moss covered in more moss along with pitcher plants and even a sphagnum bog at the top, what I found amazing though is that they are currently in their dry season and everything was dry as a bone, the miss was like the decorative dry moss you buy in bags and the plants while still green we're dry as well, I don't think we always think of these dry seasons but it looks like a key part of the season, I did bring a bunch if dry moss back so I'm hoping for some neat plants to come from it when I add some water.
> 
> Len


A much better thing was to send it all to my place ,
I know that all kinds of suprises can come out of it ,even after some months.
I once had a "cloud forest" vivarium........


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Interesting idea Zach, making the viv out of the wine chiller itself. If you don't go that routine and use a regular viv I kinda like JimO's thought about the chilled false bottom. Water is a great heat sink. I'm not sure if you could rig up a "recirculating" false bottom where you can draw water from the false bottom through the chiller and back into the FB. It seems like that and insulating the sides and bottom of the viv would tend to keep it cool in there. 
Just some thoughts.


----------



## frogparty

Wim van den Berg said:


> I,sure like these beauty,s


Id love to find the bigger version like this! Mine are much more petite, but still awesome


----------



## KeroKero

There was an awesome Orchidarium (don't remember if the link was posted already) which basically was air circulated through a mini fridge then circulated back into the tank... air chiller rather than water chiller! It was very cool, but you have to keep in mind the material the tank is made out of since glass has a high temperature transfer rate unless you go fancy double pane and such.

The octagonal/pentagonal? tank gave me another thought along with the chiller idea... if you're going to use one, you could actually circulate the water through a dripwall on the back made of something like epi/ecoweb, in the circulation with the false bottom/chiller. This would be able to keep the mounted orchids cool from that area as well. One thing that was drilled into me about cloud forest stuff was keeping the roots cool... sometimes if you could do that, the air temps could be higher.

There is also a thought for growing orchids/epiphytes on clay piping, and having the piping filled with water (which then seems into the bisque clay keeping it moist and being a great surface for the plants to get water without being wet). If this was water that was circulated through the chiller system as well, you have another "cool mount" option.

I still prefer the wine fridge idea though because it's already nicely insulated (not to mention already has a fan system and thermostat, etc) so you spend less energy running this tank, but I'd be interested to know how the other ideas worked.


----------



## zBrinks

I picked up a pair of end table wine chillers. I'll be doing standard lamasi in one, and highland tricolor in another.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Very cool. I'm looking forward to the build thread on this. 

When it's done you'll be able to point to the anthonyi wine chiller viv and say "2012 was a good year for Reds."


----------



## Wim van den Berg

frogparty said:


> Id love to find the bigger version like this! Mine are much more petite, but still awesome


I do have some bigger,but its difficult to keep them this shape


----------



## frogparty

Wim van den Berg said:


> I do have some bigger,but its difficult to keep them this shape


Those are the nicest crispa Ive ever seen. Wanna send some stateside to me?


----------



## Spaff

Zach, any update on this project?


----------



## spawn

KeroKero said:


> There was an awesome Orchidarium (don't remember if the link was posted already) which basically was air circulated through a mini fridge then circulated back into the tank... air chiller rather than water chiller! It was very cool, but you have to keep in mind the material the tank is made out of since glass has a high temperature transfer rate unless you go fancy double pane and such.
> 
> The octagonal/pentagonal? tank gave me another thought along with the chiller idea... if you're going to use one, you could actually circulate the water through a dripwall on the back made of something like epi/ecoweb, in the circulation with the false bottom/chiller. This would be able to keep the mounted orchids cool from that area as well. One thing that was drilled into me about cloud forest stuff was keeping the roots cool... sometimes if you could do that, the air temps could be higher.
> 
> There is also a thought for growing orchids/epiphytes on clay piping, and having the piping filled with water (which then seems into the bisque clay keeping it moist and being a great surface for the plants to get water without being wet). If this was water that was circulated through the chiller system as well, you have another "cool mount" option.
> 
> I still prefer the wine fridge idea though because it's already nicely insulated (not to mention already has a fan system and thermostat, etc) so you spend less energy running this tank, but I'd be interested to know how the other ideas worked.





zBrinks said:


> I picked up a pair of end table wine chillers. I'll be doing standard lamasi in one, and highland tricolor in another.





Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Very cool. I'm looking forward to the build thread on this.
> 
> When it's done you'll be able to point to the anthonyi wine chiller viv and say "2012 was a good year for Reds."


Any pictures of this wine chiller/fridge? Specifically the use of it as an air chiller? I'm actually considering this for a chameleon screen cage or two.


----------



## KeroKero

I think we need a little more information, otherwise I'm going to refer you back to part of my post that you quoted: 



 kerokero said:


> It was very cool, but you have to keep in mind the material the tank is made out of since glass has a high temperature transfer rate unless you go fancy double pane and such.


The insulation value of screen is basically nil since the whole idea of screening is air flow. The only way to actually achieve air flow and chilling is either a) have a large enough wine fridge as they will include cool air, humidity, and air floor in an insulated package, or b) have the screen cages in a room that is kept cool. This is why some people can only keep these critters in their basements, because they are built in cool rooms and the humidity and air flow is easy to achieve. I've seen a chameleon breeder that had this set up for montane species and they did pretty well in a cool basement room he had for them.

If you're looking for a set up that is significantly (more than 5 to 10 degrees) cooler than your room temps you're usually going to have to do some sort of insulated box, or find a cooler room.


----------



## spawn

I don't want to use a fridge as a setup. I want to take a pipe or tube from the fridge and use it to cool the screen cage. It just needs to push cool air across part of the cage.

Any pictures or links or references to what you referenced earlier?


----------



## KeroKero

That viv was from years ago... no idea how I'd be able to find it again and it's just a methodology that has stuck with me over the years - a "sump" for the air if you will. 

Orchid people are often making various different versions of things to grow cool orchids so there are plenty of updated versions, or newer versions to try. I'd probably recommend a [URLl="http://www.orchidkarma.com/cool-vivarium-%E2%80%93-an-even-cooler-installation/"]portal AC unit set up like this one[/URL] rather than the wine fridge air circulation method I was talking about. I've actually used these with semi-enclosed tanks to cool it off a bit, and it's a variation of using a chilling fogger for a cloud forest viv (although I'd end up using both if I couldn't use a wine fridge since the ACed air may be drying). No reason to rip apart a wine fridge for a method that won't work as well (and would be overkill) when you can just try an AC unit that will make the Chams happy enough too


----------

