# FR pumilio question



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I was browsing some classifieds today and came across some ads for pumilio that I assume to be farm raised. I'm used to seeing them offered, but these had a $60 price tag which is much lower then I'm used to seeing. Would a price like that be representative of a non acclimated FR pumilio? For the record, I have no interest in purchasing any of these frogs....just curious.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> I was browsing some classifieds today and came across some ads for pumilio that I assume to be farm raised. I'm used to seeing them offered, but these had a $60 price tag which is much lower then I'm used to seeing. Would a price like that be representative of a non acclimated FR pumilio? For the record, I have no interest in purchasing any of these frogs....just curious.


Yeah i was kinda wondering about those too, seems like a half-off sale type price right?


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

kingsnake.com Classifieds
kingsnake.com Classifieds
You guys mean these? I saw these yesterday,Im wondering too.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Surely they are frogs that are just arrived in the country and not acclimated in, wormed and quarantined. I guess if your set up for them and willing are to take the risk it wouldn't be too bad, but I don't agree with the practice that I assume "farm raised" means. Also there is not any locality info...at least that they are advertising so bringing them into your breeding project to diversify bloodlines is basically a guess and probably not a good idea.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I'd guess that part of the price is from the lack of locality information. It's the same reason El Dorados didn't start out at a higher price. Farm raised, in theory, should help drop the price, but I doubt that those are farm raised. I'm somewhat sure that there aren't farms out there, at least not like what Understory does.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> I'd guess that part of the price is from the lack of locality information. It's the same reason El Dorados didn't start out at a higher price. Farm raised, in theory, should help drop the price, but I doubt that those are farm raised. I'm somewhat sure that there aren't farms out there, at least not like what Understory does.


I agree 100%


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

Has anyone tried to email or contact the seller. I see that he has an array of reptiles for sale. Who's to say he's not an importer who's prefers to "quick sale" his items or is suffering from the same economic shortfall as your favorite clothing store. I don't know. There's a reputable vendor that has a similar blue and red "Strawberry " frog and offers only that they are wc and have been wormed, but what does that really tell you. His pricing is more aligned with the going price and he's easily accessible on the board for additional info. Basically, give them a call and see what they say.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

I would be wary of that. I once bought a pair of cayo's from a show ( a vendor who I had bought from before) Told me they were 4-6 mos old and they were his own. He only wanted 140 for the two. Bought them and they died in a week. Never ate a thing, I had them in a typical pumilio vert setup and fed they ff's and springtails. He also told me they were starting to eat ff's exculsively.

Found out they were not his and they were only 2-3 mos old.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

bgmike64 said:


> Has anyone tried to email or contact the seller. I see that he has an array of reptiles for sale. Who's to say he's not an importer who's prefers to "quick sale" his items or is suffering from the same economic shortfall as your favorite clothing store. I don't know. There's a reputable vendor that has a similar blue and red "Strawberry " frog and offers only that they are wc and have been wormed, but what does that really tell you. His pricing is more aligned with the going price and he's easily accessible on the board for additional info. Basically, give them a call and see what they say.


There is no doubt in my mind that the seller has imported them. The difference in the $60 guys and the ones offered by the more aligned vendor you refer to is that they have been wormed and had been quarantined for a month as of the time posted. The more aligned price also offers a frog that as of now has been quarantined and survived more then 6 months.


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> There is no doubt in my mind that the seller has imported them. The difference in the $60 guys and the ones offered by the more aligned vendor you refer to is that they have been wormed and had been quarantined for a month as of the time posted. The more aligned price also offers a frog that as of now has been quarantined and survived more then 6 months.


So, we can assume one is healthy and the other is in doubt for not stating. Locality and bloodline is still up in the air of both. Price could be discounted so the buyer can medicate on their own. Aren't all of these part of the '08 import. If so, can someone provide a locale, because they're probably coming from the same place?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

El Dorados and those for $60 bucks are the same exact frog........ They were being sold in pet stores in Florida for $30 bucks and some people just bought them and jacked up the price to what ever they felt like charging .......... would be silly to not get them for that price, treated or not ..... I do fecals on all my frogs and even those in the past that were so called treated were full of worms and what not , so i just treat them myself .


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

The ones in the ad are Solarte, I believe. Not sure but people are stating three separate localities for Solarte these days. Those in the ad have white feet (Solarte) as opposed to El Dorado which have dark feet (blue under a blue light). With no data I wouldn't mix them, personally. Some look a little on the rough side but could do well after possible worm treatment. I already have nancys so haven't bought them. The ones I have are from SNDF and are much more red (even without naturose) so I wouldn't mix them. What you see is what you get, I guess.

-Nish


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## Jeremiah (Mar 1, 2008)

nish07 said:


> The ones in the ad are Solarte, I believe. Not sure but people are stating three separate localities for Solarte these days. Those in the ad have white feet (Solarte) as opposed to El Dorado which have dark feet (blue under a blue light). With no data I wouldn't mix them, personally. Some look a little on the rough side but could do well after possible worm treatment. I already have nancys so haven't bought them. The ones I have are from SNDF and are much more red (even without naturose) so I wouldn't mix them. What you see is what you get, I guess.
> 
> -Nish


I would have to disagree with the guess of Solarte. One of my male El Dorados have white feet, that is not a true basest for comparison between them and el dorado. I better one would be size. Solartes are a lot smaller, el dorados at 23mmish. The newest shipments seem to be the large orange eldorados.
I also have eldorado with blue, blackish,a nd clearish feet. Blue being the most common (froglets wise).

*You pay for the quality of the frogs you purchase. I would rather pay 125 for a frog that has been establish: quarentined and medicated, as opposed to a skinny/dying 60dollar frog. But thats just me...


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

all of those pumilios are from the same shipment so infact they are not Solartes , they are what people started calling El Dorado ....... a new orange frog with no site data .


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

That's exactly right. When you buy the higher priced, quarantined and wormed animal you are paying for the seller to take the risk for you. The average hobbyist is going to have better luck dealing with these established animals. I agree that there are many out there that know what is needed and have dealt with acclimating wc animals and are more then capable and willing to do so, but it's just not for the average hobbyist. In the past I've worked with loads of wc chameleons and fully know what is required to acclimate them into captivity, but I would prefer to have someone else take that risk and pay a little extra.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

froglet said:


> all of those pumilios are from the same shipment so infact they are not Solartes , they are what people started calling El Dorado ....... a new orange frog with no site data .


If these frogs are "farm raised" how come they get here with no site data? Those would be the frogs that I would expect would be known. Guess that kinda tips the hat on the whole FR/WC debate.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

They know where they came from and aren`t saying to protect the locality from other collectors. They are simply calling them el dorado from the gold color. They DO have site data, at least from SNDF.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Come to my house you`ll see el dorado w/ white feet. You`ll also see solarte w/ grey feet.
Nish, what happened to your post?


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

My El Dorados look monsterous compared to those orange pums on Kingsnake.

-Nish


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

Well, I contacted the seller and asked for locale info because of this thread's topic of discussion and this is his reply;

well I inquired into the so called locales and was told from importers that visited Panama that locales are a joke as dozens of field collectors bring them in from dozens of locales and the exporters sell them all together in a pile and no one has a clue about locales especially the horses mouth which are the exporters.

Dan


Ready, Aim, Fire.......


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Deleted when I read a missed post with someone claiming their El Dorado had white feet. (My fault, should not have skimmed). I'm still arguing on the size, though. D=

-Nish



frogfarm said:


> Come to my house you`ll see el dorado w/ white feet. You`ll also see solarte w/ grey feet.
> Nish, what happened to your post?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Unless, like SNDF, you worked w/ one exporter and they went out to find them by themselves.
For these, your probably right. I don`t THINK anyone is collecting from solarte anymore though. I was told they wouldn`t be going back there but I don`t know who all exports from Panama. Looks like anyones guess.



bgmike64 said:


> Well, I contacted the seller and asked for locale info because of this thread's topic of discussion and this is his reply;
> 
> well I inquired into the so called locales and was told from importers that visited Panama that locales are a joke as dozens of field collectors bring them in from dozens of locales and the exporters sell them all together in a pile and no one has a clue about locales especially the horses mouth which are the exporters.
> 
> ...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Kewl. No wonder it wouldn`t let me quote it.


nish07 said:


> Deleted when I read a missed post with someone claiming their El Dorado had white feet. (My fault, should not have skimmed). I'm still arguing on the size, though. D=
> 
> -Nish


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> They know where they came from and aren`t saying to protect the locality from other collectors. They are simply calling them el dorado from the gold color. They DO have site data, at least from SNDF.


I'm sure that someone knows where they are from  None of the info on the frogs I saw specified anything other then pumilio. I don't know all that much about pumilio so I don't know the specifics on localities and such. I understand the reasoning why some would want to keep the locality secret, but shouldn't they be identified in some way so to know what frogs your working with in the future? Keeping the frogs isolated to certain imports seems like a waste if different imports are coming from the same locations. I see all the time people after "06 imports" when it may be that frogs from 08 are from the same locale and we just don't know any better.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Despite other importers getting the same morph? With all of the discussion of "El Dorados," people know where they've come from - both from natural intuition and from researchers actually seeing the frogs in person, what are they still hiding? It's pretty obvious that they're on the Panama side of Bri Bri. Why still hide it?

It doesn't seem to me to be that much of a secret anymore, so I'd guess they don't have site data, and don't truly know where they came from. Otherwise, it would seem to me, that they'd release the site data and distinguish themselves from these other importers and actually prove that they have the site data and why their frogs are better than competitors.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I'll check around, but I could have sworn I saw a foreign site with what I would have guessed was an El Dorado and a different name attached to it. I'll try and find it again. If that's the case, they may have revealed the site data by calling it a town nearby.

-Nish


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> I'm sure that someone knows where they are from  None of the info on the frogs I saw specified anything other then pumilio. I don't know all that much about pumilio so I don't know the specifics on localities and such. I understand the reasoning why some would want to keep the locality secret, but shouldn't they be identified in some way so to know what frogs your working with in the future? Keeping the frogs isolated to certain imports seems like a waste if different imports are coming from the same locations. I see all the time people after "06 imports" when it may be that frogs from 08 are from the same locale and we just don't know any better.


Right, they could do what Understory does and assign them codes, to keep the locality secret, but also allow for breeding of different imports, but they don't do it. That tells me that there's something up.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Maybe because it doesn`t seem they(SNDF) are importing them anymore?
Why don`t you give them a true locale name then if you know where they`re from?



MonarchzMan said:


> Despite other importers getting the same morph? With all of the discussion of "El Dorados," people know where they've come from - both from natural intuition and from researchers actually seeing the frogs in person, what are they still hiding? It's pretty obvious that they're on the Panama side of Bri Bri. Why still hide it?
> 
> It doesn't seem to me to be that much of a secret anymore, so I'd guess they don't have site data, and don't truly know where they came from. Otherwise, it would seem to me, that they'd release the site data and distinguish themselves from these other importers and actually prove that they have the site data and why their frogs are better than competitors.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Who`s they? As far as I know SNDF is the ONLY importers working alongside the exporter and they did have codes after the man creeks to delineate different collecting areas of the same morph?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> Right, they could do what Understory does and assign them codes, to keep the locality secret, but also allow for breeding of different imports, but they don't do it. That tells me that there's something up.


Exactly. The way that Understory is handling things is a perfect example of what should and could be done if in fact these frogs are truly farm raised as they are claimed to be. The description from the seller that bgmike posted says it all. They have no idea where these frogs are from and now that leaves us all to guess and isolate yet another import of frogs for fear that we are going to be mixing locales. There is only so much room in the hobby and the way things are going there is going to be so much unnecessary isolation of imports that other morphs will be forced out of the hobby. It's a shame.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Here's a very recent photo added to Dendrobase.de 










This morph is labeled Changinola. This happens to look more like the El Dorados than the Solartes (even with white feet). Dendrobase lists them as an average of 19mm which is still near the top end for pumilio but 4mm short of their average size for a Bribri. Also, this town (if you map it) is fairly close to Costa Rica in the northeast part of the country (Mainland and far from Solarte). I'd suppose that if this is the El Dorado locale, it's no secret since Dendrobase is a very good and likely heavily read site. Someone might be able to get a confirmation of the info if they can speak with people on Dendrobase (anyone speak German?)

-Nish

P.S. Just from conversations with Marcus, I'm hearing that even within what they're calling El Dorados, they are coming from distances fairly far from each other (around a mountainous area?) and the differences show based on coloration (though I hear different morphs can and do live very close together at times.) The conversation alone was enough to make me not want to breed the different locales together (yellow/orange/red), but to each their own.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> Who`s they? As far as I know SNDF is the ONLY importers working alongside the exporter and they did have codes after the man creeks to delineate different collecting areas of the same morph?


It doesn't sound like the seller of the frogs in question is importing with codes according to his email response.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Truth is that less than a dozen people will even get any pumilio breeding from any of these imports,they are not going to be able to be managed anyway. These cheap imports will go out as pets. The same thing that happened w/ blue jeans is currently happening w/ panamanian pumilio. There will probably be less than 3 pairs left/morph from all these imports to manage anything when it all stops. It was too much too fast and it`ll probably be over soon w/ prices falling the way they are. You guys know how this goes.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Maybe because it doesn`t seem they(SNDF) are importing them anymore?
> Why don`t you give them a true locale name then if you know where they`re from?


Then what harm is done by letting people know the locality info? I believe it was Thomas (Uncle Tom) that had said that they were from Las Delicias. Any frog from Changrinola to Las Delicias will likely have a similar color, so that's likely where they came from. I've been wrong before, but to my knowledge that is the only area with this coloration.

And until SNDF puts their money where their mouths are and gives me GPS coordinates on where the frogs where collected, or can direct me to the place that they got the frogs, they don't have site data. They have a generalization on where the frogs were from, just like most Bastimentos, Caucheros, Blue Jeans, Isla Popas, etc.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Nish you are fighting a loosing battle IMO ... You show us a single picture of a single frog which is suppossed to be El Dorado ? There are hundred of different pumilio morphs out there besides what is in the hobby. These frogs were collected in the same shipment probably from the same area and distributed to the trade in the US along with other countries. Who knows what they are or where they come from ? Noone does ..... in fact this reminds of of Almirante which many years ago came in without site data and are now considered its own morph in the hobby. 

Consider that not every frog will look the same but be part of the same locale . Escudos sometimes come in full blue, blue and red, mostly red........ but they are still from the same location. 

El Dorado can only be the name given to this specific import and not the frog itself to keep the lines the way they are .....


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Truth is that less than a dozen people will even get any pumilio breeding from any of these imports,they are not going to be able to be managed anyway. These cheap imports will go out as pets. The same thing that happened w/ blue jeans is currently happening w/ panamanian pumilio. There will probably be less than 3 pairs left/morph from all these imports to manage anything when it all stops. It was too much too fast and it`ll probably be over soon w/ prices falling the way they are. You guys know how this goes.


That hardly seems like a good excuse to be irresponsible in importing frogs. Even if 3 pairs survival, that's 6 frogs that can be invaluable to a breeding program.

Yes, you're right that many won't make it, but the ends do not justify the means.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I agree with you on the flood of imports. I think it's irresponsible though to not worry about the location just because you think less than a dozen people will get them to breed. I agree that the prices mean that many people will just keep them as pets, but the amount of hobbyist that are working with pumilio and with the information known about their care now it is more than wishful thinking that they could avoid going the route of blue jeans. Without having a crystal ball to know the future of these frogs or any other frogs for that matter, it is a detriment to the hobby to not gather as much information as possible on the frogs that are being worked with.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm not really fighting other than to say 1.) Those labeled El Dorado are generally large and the pums on Kingsnake are rather small comparatively. And, 2.) The pic I posted from Dendrobase is -very- recently added, is calling the morph Changinola which is a town in northeastern Panama (El Dorados are supposed to come from a northern area of Panama) and if someone could speak German, they might be able to start a correspondence with people that frequent the site to find out where that data came from. 

I've never seen a picture labeled with a name that looked more like the pums that are being sold here under the name El Dorado. I'm not trying to argue but there may be more info out there.

-Nish



froglet said:


> Nish you are fighting a loosing battle IMO ... You show us a single picture of a single frog which is suppossed to be El Dorado ? There are hundred of different pumilio morphs out there besides what is in the hobby. These frogs were collected in the same shipment probably from the same area and distributed to the trade in the US along with other countries. Who knows what they are or where they come from ? Noone does ..... in fact this reminds of of Almirante which many years ago came in without site data and are now considered its own morph in the hobby.
> 
> Consider that not every frog will look the same but be part of the same locale . Escudos sometimes come in full blue, blue and red, mostly red........ but they are still from the same location.
> 
> El Dorado can only be the name given to this specific import and not the frog itself to keep the lines the way they are .....


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Pretty interesting find Nish. It will be cool to see if anything comes out of that. Hopefully there is a member who knows german that could help out.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

What`s a GPS coordinate if you don`t have a map range for the morph/population? Why worry about breeding 52"36'N by 320"96' W w/ xx"yy' if they are in the same population range?
Gps coordinates don`t mean a thing if you don`t know where one population ends and another begins. Distinguishing a shipment from the east end of said population from the west is useless if no more than 3 pairs of said pop breed and they are seperated thru imports but not in the wild. At a certain point you limit the gene pool by dividing up pops that genes flow thru. Esp when we already have too many morphs to even work on keeping around.
Blue jeans is different lumping than is popa than is Escudo than is el dorado. One is clooective of a whole country range of pumilio the other of 2 possibly different morphs on one island(what happens if they grow into one pop in 50 years because the habitat begins to expand and connect) and the other is an island morph in and of itself w/ a slew of different red/blue/silver/white colorations in the same population and another is possibly one large ranging interbreeding population on mainland mt`s which could eventually become contigious w/ another morph.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Why do they owe you anything? Did you ever buy any from them? Why are they responsible for other exporters and importers than the one they deal w/? Have you ever called to discuss it w/ them? Maybe they`ve declassified it by now.



MonarchzMan said:


> Then what harm is done by letting people know the locality info? I believe it was Thomas (Uncle Tom) that had said that they were from Las Delicias. Any frog from Changrinola to Las Delicias will likely have a similar color, so that's likely where they came from. I've been wrong before, but to my knowledge that is the only area with this coloration.
> 
> And until SNDF puts their money where their mouths are and gives me GPS coordinates on where the frogs where collected, or can direct me to the place that they got the frogs, they don't have site data. They have a generalization on where the frogs were from, just like most Bastimentos, Caucheros, Blue Jeans, Isla Popas, etc.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> What`s a GPS coordinate if you don`t have a map range for the morph/population? Why worry about breeding 52"36'N by 320"96' W w/ xx"yy' if they are in the same population range?
> Gps coordinates don`t mean a thing if you don`t know where one population ends and another begins. Distinguishing a shipment from the east end of said population from the west is useless if no more than 3 pairs of said pop breed and they are seperated thru imports but not in the wild. At a certain point you limit the gene pool by dividing up pops that genes flow thru. Esp when we already have too many morphs to even work on keeping around.
> Blue jeans is different lumping than is popa than is Escudo than is el dorado. One is clooective of a whole country range of pumilio the other of 2 possibly different morphs on one island(what happens if they grow into one pop in 50 years because the habitat begins to expand and connect) and the other is an island morph in and of itself w/ a slew of different red/blue/silver/white colorations in the same population and another is possibly one large ranging interbreeding population on mainland mt`s which could eventually become contigious w/ another morph.


I think that using this rationality would prove itself correct in tincs....and that just isn't the case.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Why do they owe you anything? Did you ever buy any from them? Why are they responsible for other exporters and importers than the one they deal w/? Have you ever called to discuss it w/ them? Maybe they`ve declassified it by now.


They don't owe me anything. I wouldn't touch their pumilio with a 10 foot pole because they don't have site data. Who they do owe something to are the pumilio, and by letting those of us interested in creating breeding programs know if these frogs are the same or not from others, we can best develop programs for that. If they're interested at all in conservation of the frogs, that's what would be best.

I don't hold them responsible for other exporters or importers. I hold them responsible for their own actions, which haven't been very good, so far, in terms of conservation of the species. I have not contacted them yet, although I plan to. I plan to find out what exactly these so called farms are and where they are.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm guessing it's most likely the case that a few collectors/'farm raisers' went out and grabbed the 'El Dorados' and they are/were attempting to keep the location quiet so they can sell the frogs they have (meaning they have what nobody else has so they have an edge in selling them). If they don't keep it quiet, others will go directly there and grab them (possibly close to 1000 or more) and then they have competition. It is possible that the location doesn't contain many frogs and they don't want overcollecting, but who knows. At some point, it's going to become known and the collectors/'farm raisers' know that. By that time they've made their money and will likely attempt to move on to something new. If the flood of these new El Dorados isn't enough to keep them sustained in the hobby, then smuggling will happen if/when they become scarce and tagged as a specific locale. There's really no reason for it to happen right now, though.

I guess the best case scenario is a very professional group of people traveling to specific locals and documenting the frogs they pull/'farm raise' and ship out with very accurate paperwork. I can't begin to imagine the cost of something like this. I'd imagine the best way to go about it would be the Mark Pepper way, though. Unfortunately, producing tons of egg feeders at a time is nearly impossible without a huge workspace and a ton of equipment so not only will pums continue to be expensive and only survive in the hobby through dedicated breeders, but for people attempting to make money, non-obligate eggfeeders will always be the way to go when trying to figure out how many of what type of frog to fill their breeding tanks with.

-Nish



frogfarm said:


> Why do they owe you anything? Did you ever buy any from them? Why are they responsible for other exporters and importers than the one they deal w/? Have you ever called to discuss it w/ them? Maybe they`ve declassified it by now.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ve told you before that farming under the way they write the export laws can be as little as cutting down a few trees to improve habitat aqnd collecting however many pumilio you want. Don`t yell at me I don`t make the laws. Do you realize that SNDF`s actions are the first to even bring in healthy pumilio by mass export? Do you know at all what we`ve had to deal w/ in the past w/ imports being healthy? I think that they`ve done a HELL of a lot because I`ve seen how imports have changed over 15 years, you, what are your standards led by? You keep saying they don`t even have the technology to farm them (and who ever said they farmed them ALL?) and then you expect every collector to own their own GPS? How do you know they don`t have GPS coordinates, I think Marcus brought one w/ them when they went to find these populations? The way you treat them I`d threaten to not sell to anyone who gave you any info, personally. You do everything to attack them because they won`t take you to where they farm them and you haven`t even been around long enough to appreciate what they`ve done. Nothing ever came in w/ anything more than a color description before this unless it was smuggled. If your unhappy w/ the export procedures, contact the Panama gov`t, the exporters or your researcher friends, people who can actually do something about it. Marcus and Valentina, I think, have done enough to make a leap in the export procedures(health of the frogs imported thru them and the seperation of the morphs) even if they don`t want to give away exact coordinates, which may be extremely prolific and they don`t want people to come to raid them and destroy the habitat. whose to say in some areas they aren`t hard to find and they are doing it to protect what`s there because people may not find them when they go thru, you seem very judgemental that they won`t give YOU coordinates. Unfortunately for us the panama gov`t doesn`t put a cap on it till they are unwanted or extremely cheap.



MonarchzMan said:


> They don't owe me anything. I wouldn't touch their pumilio with a 10 foot pole because they don't have site data. Who they do owe something to are the pumilio, and by letting those of us interested in creating breeding programs know if these frogs are the same or not from others, we can best develop programs for that. If they're interested at all in conservation of the frogs, that's what would be best.
> 
> I don't hold them responsible for other exporters or importers. I hold them responsible for their own actions, which haven't been very good, so far, in terms of conservation of the species. I have not contacted them yet, although I plan to. I plan to find out what exactly these so called farms are and where they are.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> I`ve told you before that farming under the way they write the export laws can be as little as cutting down a few trees to improve habitat aqnd collecting however many pumilio you want. Don`t yell at me I don`t make the laws. Do you realize that SNDF`s actions are the first to even bring in healthy pumilio by mass export? Do you know at all what we`ve had to deal w/ in the past w/ imports being healthy? I think that they`ve done a HELL of a lot because I`ve seen how imports have changed over 15 years, you, what are your standards led by? You keep saying they don`t even have the technology to farm them (and who ever said they farmed them ALL?) and then you expect every collector to own their own GPS? How do you know they don`t have GPS coordinates, I think Marcus brought one w/ them when they went to find these populations? The way you treat them I`d threaten to not sell to anyone who gave you any info, personally. You do everything to attack them because they won`t take you to where they farm them and you haven`t even been around long enough to appreciate what they`ve done. Nothing ever came in w/ anything more than a color description before this unless it was smuggled. If your unhappy w/ the export procedures, contact the Panama gov`t, the exporters or your researcher friends, people who can actually do something about it. Marcus and Valentina, I think, have done enough to make a leap in the export procedures. Unfortunately for us the panama gov`t doesn`t put a cap on it till they are unwanted or extremely cheap.


You're right Aaron. The farming label has always been in my estimation no more then a legal loophole. It's also quite amazing how much things have changed in the past 15-20 years in regards to the import/exporting of these animals. I remember receiving shipments of blue jeans at the pet store I worked at that were just sold as "blue leg frogs". That being said, there is still plenty of room for improvement. If we sit here idle and don't let our opinions be heard then the slow pace of improvement will continue. I'm not saying that things aren't being done and I do think that SNDF has done a good job to get the ball rolling. Maybe it will take people contacting the exporters and govt to get some of the changes to take place....who really knows. I just don't think that accepting things how they are is in any way beneficial and the push for change could really be helped if more people joined in.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

It`s all about to end. $30 pumilio in a pet store in FLA says it all. This is what happens. I have no "inside" info but w/ the economy failing and pumilio sitting in pet shops at $30ea. people start loosing interest in them and sell them and then the imports stop and we`re left scrambling to get what`s left. You really think SNDF will keep importing pumilio w/ site data when people are buying them at $30ea from pet stores after all the work they`ve done to provide site data for theirs? I stated it in another thread about people cutting corners driving quality importers out by cheap prices.



jubjub47 said:


> You're right Aaron. The farming label has always been in my estimation no more then a legal loophole. It's also quite amazing how much things have changed in the past 15-20 years in regards to the import/exporting of these animals. I remember receiving shipments of blue jeans at the pet store I worked at that were just sold as "blue leg frogs". That being said, there is still plenty of room for improvement. If we sit here idle and don't let our opinions be heard then the slow pace of improvement will continue. I'm not saying that things aren't being done and I do think that SNDF has done a good job to get the ball rolling. Maybe it will take people contacting the exporters and govt to get some of the changes to take place....who really knows. I just don't think that accepting things how they are is in any way beneficial and the push for change could really be helped if more people joined in.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> I`ve told you before that farming under the way they write the export laws can be as little as cutting down a few trees to improve habitat aqnd collecting however many pumilio you want. Don`t yell at me I don`t make the laws. Do you realize that SNDF`s actions are the first to even bring in healthy pumilio by mass export? Do you know at all what we`ve had to deal w/ in the past w/ imports being healthy? I think that they`ve done a HELL of a lot because I`ve seen how imports have changed over 15 years, you, what are your standards led by?


You seem to think that in order to export frogs, that they have to be from farmed origins, and I can tell you that that is not the case. At least, not in my experience of dealing with export papers. I'm not yelling at you about the laws, I know you don't write them. I'm just commenting about the detriment that they're doing to the frogs by not providing site data. I'm glad that they have healthy frogs. Good for them. But for all intents and purposes, they're killing the frogs in the wild by not providing such site data. Even if we wanted to try with a captive breeding program, we couldn't because we don't know where they come from. We can't conserve them. That is what my standards are led by: conservation. I want to eventually see the imports stop because we have a healthy captive bred population. But we can't do that.

What are _your_ standards led by?



> You keep saying they don`t even have the technology to farm them (and who ever said they farmed them ALL?) and then you expect every collector to own their own GPS? How do you know they don`t have GPS coordinates, I think Marcus brought one w/ them when they went to find these populations?


You misunderstand me and misread my statements. But first, it is doubtful that they have the ability to farm them. By they, I mean locals. SNDF could have the ability to make a farm, but have yet to show that they have. I believe you advertise your frogs as being farm raised (yep, just checked your website, you have your Solarte listed as "farm raised").

And if you look at my comment, I said I won't believe them until they give me GPS coordinates or, and here's the key part, direct me to where the frogs we collected. If Marcus did bring a GPS, then he should be able to provide that information.

One more comment, too. A $50 GPS is far easier for a Panamanian to obtain than building a $10,000 farm.



> The way you treat them I`d threaten to not sell to anyone who gave you any info, personally. You do everything to attack them because they won`t take you to where they farm them and you haven`t even been around long enough to appreciate what they`ve done. Nothing ever came in w/ anything more than a color description before this unless it was smuggled.


So it's okay to import frogs with made up names (which, coincidentally, are named for their color), and not okay to import frogs with simply a color description? I haven't been around terribly long, that is true, compared to many, but you'll find that I am an extremely fast learner, and that when I get something of interest, such as pumilio, I learn all that I can about them (hence numerous people coming to me for pumilio expertise). And all I can find out from the current import procedure is that they're taking frogs from the wild, not farming them, and not providing information on where they're coming from. Even though the frogs may be coming in healthy, they're effectively killing them. If I'm missing something, do let me know.



> If your unhappy w/ the export procedures, contact the Panama gov`t, the exporters or your researcher friends, people who can actually do something about it. Marcus and Valentina, I think, have done enough to make a leap in the export procedures(health of the frogs imported thru them and the seperation of the morphs) even if they don`t want to give away exact coordinates, which may be extremely prolific and they don`t want people to come to raid them and destroy the habitat.


You assume much. I would be more inclined to believe Nish's line of reasoning and say that they're just trying to protect their business interest, not the frogs. And don't worry, I'm going to try to talk to ANAM.



> whose to say in some areas they aren`t hard to find and they are doing it to protect what`s there, you seem very judgemental that they won`t give YOU coordinates. Unfortunately for us the panama gov`t doesn`t put a cap on it till they are unwanted or extremely cheap.


Once again, you assume much. It's not just me, it's anyone. They've made no indication to help preserve the species (i.e. giving information to conservation groups, like TWI).

And we are the ones demanding these frogs. It simply takes us demanding site data.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Read what I wrote about the laws and COLLECTING pumilio for cutting wood.

They are providing site data, escudo, popa N, Cayo de Agua, Almirante PDP-JA and LR which is probably the same "population" Solarte, Cauchero and what are these if not population data? They can`t help it if other exporters collect from other areas and don`t hold site data, this is why they`re probably not doing it, other exporters aren`t and they`re selling them cheaper then they could farm them for. 
Again I said my view was from 15 years of seeing imports of pumilio. 

You try to run a business between here and an exporter(isn`t Marcus` business)down there and fly back and forth and see others cut corners, and see if you think it`s worth your while to do?

Read it right, I have one farm raised solarte, I don`t"list them as farm raised", I list IT as farm raised, the other 3 are cb. I advertise my extra from the groups I got(5 of each morph to start 2 breeding pairs, I don`t sell imports) as farm raised because I have no evidence otherwise. Do I think at least some are collected or supplemented or some morphs not even bred alltogether, of course I`m not stupid. Is it allright to sell them as el dorados, of course because they hhave collection data and no one else even cares that import and sell pumilio as or from. It`s not sndf`s fault that no one else has data to check w/ theirs. I know where they came from as in mt. area, not gps coordinates because I`m actually a friend of theirs and spend time on the phone w/ them. As long as the people get theirs from SNDF all the el dorados they imported can be bred together. Other importers seem to be a waste of time by these standards since they don`t provide the same data and probably shouldn`t be compared.

As I said why would he want to provide that info to you?

It seems your missing a lot as you keep asking questions I`ve already answered.
And you keep saying we are demanding the frogs and I don`t see you buying any or breeding any. You seem to have a lot of opinions exactly how we should do it though.




MonarchzMan said:


> You seem to think that in order to export frogs, that they have to be from farmed origins, and I can tell you that that is not the case. At least, not in my experience of dealing with export papers. I'm not yelling at you about the laws, I know you don't write them. I'm just commenting about the detriment that they're doing to the frogs by not providing site data. I'm glad that they have healthy frogs. Good for them. But for all intents and purposes, they're killing the frogs in the wild by not providing such site data. Even if we wanted to try with a captive breeding program, we couldn't because we don't know where they come from. We can't conserve them. That is what my standards are led by: conservation. I want to eventually see the imports stop because we have a healthy captive bred population. But we can't do that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Should we strive for the Mark Pepper Method, of course, until or if a better model ever comes along but are you asking for GPS coordinates for Mark`s frogs, no, letting them be marked by region and code. What is El dorado, it`s a code since they have coordinates. Blue pumilio means nothing as a code from past imports because there was never coordinates to go w/ them. Now Cauchero is the geographical region of said population and the code for them. Are darklands the same? I dunno that`s up to you to tell us by walking from one to the other and seeing if it`s a contigious population. Just saying they are too far apart and saying they should have coordinates doesn`t cut it. If they are the same contigious population then why seperate them and where do you seperate them if they all interbreed along the way?? Why don`t you be the first to give up coordinates and pics for morphs you`ve seen first and others may fall in and tell you theirs.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> They are providing site data, escudo, popa N, Cayo de Agua, Almirante PDP-JA and LR which is probably the same "population" Solarte, Cauchero and what are these if not population data? They can`t help it if other exporters collect from other areas and don`t hold site data, this is why they`re probably not doing it, other exporters aren`t and they`re selling them cheaper then they could farm them for.
> Again I said my view was from 15 years of seeing imports of pumilio.


Ah, I see, so putting the island where they're from is good enough? There aren't multiple populations on those islands. There isn't a difference between the north part of the islands and the south part of the islands. For instance, when they starting importing the Popa North frogs, they advertised them simply as Isla Popa frogs. I immediately went after this saying that there were multiple populations, and provided pictures, and that selling them as Popa frogs was irresponsible. Go ahead and check the archives if you don't believe me.

Simply providing information on a general location is not good enough for these frogs. When these populations can be only be in a couple square miles, that's not nearly enough at all.



> You try to run a business between here and an exporter(isn`t Marcus` business)down there and fly back and forth and see others cut corners, and see if you think it`s worth your while to do?


Give me time, and I will.



> Read it right, I have one farm raised solarte, I don`t"list them as farm raised", I list IT as farm raised, the other 3 are cb. I advertise my extra from the groups I got(5 of each morph to start 2 breeding pairs, I don`t sell imports) as farm raised because I have no evidence otherwise. Do I think at least some are collected or supplemented or some morphs not even bred alltogether, of course I`m not stupid.


I was just answering your question. You asked who said they farmed them at all, and I merely replied that you do based on your advertisement.



> Is it allright to sell them as el dorados, of course because they hhave collection data and no one else even cares that import and sell pumilio as or from. It`s not sndf`s fault that no one else has data to check w/ theirs. I know where they came from as in mt. area, not gps coordinates because I`m actually a friend of theirs and spend time on the phone w/ them.


You do know that there are mountains running the the entire length of pumilio's range, right? I'm glad you're friends with them. It explains a bit. I'm simply criticizing the conservation of the species.



> As long as the people get theirs from SNDF all the el dorados they imported can be bred together. Other importers seem to be a waste of time by these standards since they don`t provide the same data and probably shouldn`t be compared.


Hence why GPS coordinates should be somewhere in there.



> As I said why would he want to provide that info to you?


If he doesn't, it makes little difference to me, I'll publish my results just the same. Like I said, I've got one thing in mind: conservation. When I see, based on my data, that there can be as few as 400 frogs per hectare, and the rate of imports, it can rather easily deplete a population. I want to know what is being done to help protect these frogs. If SNDF doesn't provide information, it only tells me that they're trying to hide something, and I'll simply report it as them being unresponsive. I'll let the general public decide what they think about the conservation of the species.



> It seems your missing a lot as you keep asking questions I`ve already answered.
> And you keep saying we are demanding the frogs and I don`t see you buying any or breeding any. You seem to have a lot of opinions exactly how we should do it though.


Does one have to be an artist to know art? Does one have to be a botanist to know flowers? No. I may not have bred much, but I have studied, learned, and experienced what these frogs need to conserve their species. I have seen these frogs in the wild. I have seen the densities. I have seen the conditions. I would think that my "opinions" weigh heavily on fact, and how to conserve these animals.

I'm intrigued, though, to find that I'm simply arguing to give information so that the serious breeders can develop breeding programs to help conserve these morphs so that pressures can be reduced on wild populations, and you seem to be arguing against all of that. I simply want these frogs conserved into the future, and saying what needs to be done, and you seem to be reprimanding me for that. I'm curious as to why.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ah, I see, so putting the island where they're from is good enough? There aren't multiple populations on those islands. There isn't a difference between the north part of the islands and the south part of the islands. For instance, when they starting importing the Popa North frogs, they advertised them simply as Isla Popa frogs. I immediately went after this saying that there were multiple populations, and provided pictures, and that selling them as Popa frogs was irresponsible. Go ahead and check the archives if you don't believe me.


Maybe telling them they were being irresponsible that they didn`t know of other pop`s on that island was a bit harsh? I believe you and then they started adding the N after it no? Maybe if you tried to help them instead of criticizing like YOU know it all would be more helpful?

Give me time, and I will.

Great, can`t wait to see it, someone else trying to help such as SNDf has.



I was just answering your question. You asked who said they farmed them at all, and I merely replied that you do based on your advertisement.

No I said who says they farmed them all, not at all.



You do know that there are mountains running the the entire length of pumilio's range, right? I'm glad you're friends with them. It explains a bit. I'm simply criticizing the conservation of the species.

No your criticizing anyone who doesn`t have the research background and info your professor had when he gave his frogs to Rich. Saying you wouldn`t touch their frogs w/ a ten foot pole isn`t really criticizing the conservation it`s attacking their business practices which are the best there has ever been for pumilio imports, other than your professors which got into the hobby.

Hence why GPS coordinates should be somewhere in there. They aren`t for Mark Pepper`s but I don`t see you attacking that.



If he doesn't, it makes little difference to me, I'll publish my results just the same. Like I said, I've got one thing in mind: conservation. When I see, based on my data, that there can be as few as 400 frogs per hectare, and the rate of imports, it can rather easily deplete a population. I want to know what is being done to help protect these frogs. If SNDF doesn't provide information, it only tells me that they're trying to hide something, and I'll simply report it as them being unresponsive. I'll let the general public decide what they think about the conservation of the species.



Does one have to be an artist to know art? 
No, but you shouldn`t go around trying to tell artists how to paint a picture.

Does one have to be a botanist to know flowers? 
No. But will he know what he`s seeing or how it reproduces etc. maybe, maybe not.

I may not have bred much, but I have studied, learned, and experienced what these frogs need to conserve their species. 
I have seen these frogs in the wild. I have seen the densities. I have seen the conditions. I would think that my "opinions" weigh heavily on fact, and how to conserve these animals.

You haven`t bred them but you know what it takes to preserve their #`s in captivity? Bad analogies, I`ve studied birds nesting in the wild but have no clue about captive populations and what data I need to maintain captive pops. 

I'm intrigued, though, to find that I'm simply arguing to give information so that the serious breeders can develop breeding programs to help conserve these morphs so that pressures can be reduced on wild populations, and you seem to be arguing against all of that. I simply want these frogs conserved into the future, and saying what needs to be done, and you seem to be reprimanding me for that. I'm curious as to why. 

Because your demanding some info that isn`t needed. As I said does the Blue Frog Population run from darklands to cauchero? Seems a waste to breed all darklands lines from one or 2 pair of your profs frogs as darklands if they can be mixed w/ cauchero lines if they are indeed one population, no?
And I`m saying SNDF is the best we`ve got at the moment and you seem to be going after them. I like your efforts on what your doing and that Rich has contributed from MEFF for your efforts and I hope you do get into the export business. People w/ your passion are needed to help these frogs but bashing what`s in place because you won`t do anything about it kinda irks me. It seems that since SNDF and Rich are at odds and Rich supports your program and knows your prof, maybe your a little biased in your demanding a business to do it your way? Maybe you should be talking to other importers to try and follow SNDF and coordinate where they get their frogs from too? I think by saying their efforts are useless you are condemming all pumilio lines to the limited amount your prof brought in by trying to compare everything to what a university has the power to do when you`ve never talked to the EXPORTERS, just barked orders at one importer for his label when others don`t even label.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Maybe telling them they were being irresponsible that they didn`t know of other pop`s on that island was a bit harsh?


Hence why site specific data is necessary. I have reason to believe that there are more than one morph on Cayo de Agua as well, but do not have the confirmation of that. If that's the case, which is wouldn't surprise me at all if it was, then it's just another testament to the need for site specific data.



> Great, can`t wait to see it, someone else trying to help such as SNDf has.


I am extremely curious as to what help SNDF has done in regards to pumilio conservation? That is why I would start anything down there. Because, as far as I can tell, it's not happening.



> No your criticizing anyone who doesn`t have the research background and info your professor had when he gave his frogs to Rich. Saying you wouldn`t touch their frogs w/ a ten foot pole isn`t really criticizing the conservation it`s attacking their business practices which are the best there has ever been for pumilio imports, other than your professors which got into the hobby.


No, I'm criticizing conservation practices, or lack there of. I don't want any pumilio that don't have site data associated with them because those frogs are useless. It is my intention to get a captive bred population established in the US so that, should the worst happen, the wild populations could be supplemented. That can't be done at all with most of the pumilio in the US.



> Hence why GPS coordinates should be somewhere in there. They aren`t for Mark Pepper`s but I don`t see you attacking that.


Once I get well versed on South American species, I'll be able to comment on conservation practices there. As is, that is not the case. I'm well versed on pumilio.



> You haven`t bred them but you know what it takes to preserve their #`s in captivity? Bad analogies, I`ve studied birds nesting in the wild but have no clue about captive populations and what data I need to maintain captive pops.


It doesn't take a genius to see that, if you can't trace frogs back to their source, you can't conserve the species very well. How many pumilio are doomed to remain single because people don't know what they are and can't pair them up? I haven't said a thing about numbers or anything like that. I'm talking about the bare basics. Once we can figure out what these frogs are, then we can talk about numbers.



> And I`m saying SNDF is the best we`ve got at the moment and you seem to be going after them. I like your efforts on what your doing and that Rich has contributed from MEFF for your efforts and I hope you do get into the export business. People w/ your passion are needed to help these frogs but bashing what`s in place because you won`t do anything about it kinda irks me. It seems that since SNDF and Rich are at odds and Rich supports your program and knows your prof, maybe your a little biased in your demanding a business to do it your way?


My comments are mine and mine alone. I haven't talked to Rich in a while, and about pumilio, it's been even longer. My comments come from simple observation. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people ask "what is this?" or "I need an '06 import." I want to conserve these animals. I want the imports to be minimal, at best. That cannot be done when there is as much confusion and lack of information as there is now. I'm not bashing, simply pointing out inadequacies. Change won't happen if people think that everything is hunky-dory. And even if it's "the best," if it's mediocre, it doesn't really do any good. I've been through classes where the high score is a 50%. Do you think that the individual who got the best score is happy with that, or do you think that he wants to improve? I point out the inadequacies so that changes can be done and that 50% can go into the 90s.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I am extremely curious as to what help SNDF has done in regards to pumilio conservation? That is why I would start anything down there. Because, as far as I can tell, it's not happening.

They`re doing lots for conservation in captivity, can`t breed em if they won`t stay alive. Even if they don`t meet your standards. Again tell me if the cauchero darklands pop is contigious so they can be bred together? 
And you aren`t doing a disservice splicing them up into so many pops they can`t be managed? Again, what if the popa island populations converge thru the conncting of habitats on the island in 50 years? Do we start breeding them together then? See maybe we can conserve the species w/ just island locales, you can`t tell the future. And what if they aren`t genetically different, just diverged thru cutoff from each others population, from one founding population? And the Escudo population, no kudos for that? Rich seemed to be confident about that population. 
Your looking at a snapshot in time w/ all the current populations, they wax and wane some dissappear and some diverge. To say your able to conserve them by population in captivity just shows that you don`t know. Each generation in captivity takes them to a divergence greater and greater from their counterparts in the wild because they are not under the pressures as they are changing in the wild. They won`t be the same in 100 years. They`ll never be rereleased or entered into programs from us.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Splicing them up into many populations, at this point in time, is to preserve genetic integrity. It's far better than breeding Popa Norths with Popa Souths, for example. Yes, I realize that this isn't ideal, but once site data can start to be collected on these populations, we can tell what populations are the same and what are not. We really shouldn't have to separate Almirante shipments. Any frog in the general area of Almirante should be the same morph. But because we're not certain that they're from that area, we have to keep them separate.

Yes, it's a snapshot in time. But that's the best alternative. And when I say best, that's what I mean. If we establish a healthy captive population, then the imports can slow or stop. Then with that done, us researchers and conservationists can tackle conservation of the species in the wild. Then, ideally, we won't have to reintroduce animals. It's better to have animals for a possible reintroduction even if they've been "frozen" from evolution for 50 or 100 years than to have those animals be lost forever. After all, everything from the 50 year previous animals made the current ones. Not only that, but given current theories of evolution, you'd have to keep animals removed from wild populations for hundreds of years to have any significant difference between captive and wild populations. 50 or 100 years is nothing in terms of evolution of a species.

Reintroduction of any species is the last ditch effort for any conservation plan. No one wants to have to reintroduce animals. That's the point of no return for a species or population. It's a back up plan for any species. With the threat that amphibians face worldwide, it is very possible that we see some of these populations disappear entirely. And what contingency plans are there for these populations should that happen? There aren't any. That is what I want to see. Right now, how imports are occurring, they're hurting the populations more than they're helping them. Like I said, they're effectively killing the frogs. They're removing frogs from the populations that can't be replaces. It's not sustainable.

I want a back up plan should the worse happen. I'm starting with pumilio, but hopefully they can serve as a model for other species. Right now, importers don't allow for that to happen, even though protecting the animals they're harvesting is in their best interest.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I can see great points on both sides of this "discussion" - we definitely need more discussions like this one on here


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Splicing them up into many populations, at this point in time, is to preserve genetic integrity. It's far better than breeding Popa Norths with Popa Souths, for example. Yes, I realize that this isn't ideal, but once site data can start to be collected on these populations, we can tell what populations are the same and what are not. We really shouldn't have to separate Almirante shipments. Any frog in the general area of Almirante should be the same morph. But because we're not certain that they're from that area, we have to keep them separate.

Not if there isn`t enough people breeding them, you just loose genetics from one end of Popa isle. No frogs in the country are worthy of repopulating, once they hit these shores the problem of introducing parasites back that are non native is too great. Once they are here they are only for maintaining our captive populations. And there are already too many to manage w/ the # of breeders out there. This is what they do when they open a country, they export till they can`t get anything for them anymore, there is where the problem lies, not w/ SNDF doing what they can to provide more info than anyone to mange them IN CAPTIVITY WHICH IS WHERE THEY WILL ALWAYS REMAIN. 

Yes, it's a snapshot in time. But that's the best alternative. And when I say best, that's what I mean. If we establish a healthy captive population, then the imports can slow or stop. Then with that done, us researchers and conservationists can tackle conservation of the species in the wild. Then, ideally, we won't have to reintroduce animals. It's better to have animals for a possible reintroduction even if they've been "frozen" from evolution for 50 or 100 years than to have those animals be lost forever. After all, everything from the 50 year previous animals made the current ones. Not only that, but given current theories of evolution, you'd have to keep animals removed from wild populations for hundreds of years to have any significant difference between captive and wild populations. 50 or 100 years is nothing in terms of evolution of a species.

Reintroduction of any species is the last ditch effort for any conservation plan. No one wants to have to reintroduce animals. That's the point of no return for a species or population. It's a back up plan for any species. With the threat that amphibians face worldwide, it is very possible that we see some of these populations disappear entirely. And what contingency plans are there for these populations should that happen? There aren't any. That is what I want to see. Right now, how imports are occurring, they're hurting the populations more than they're helping them. Like I said, they're effectively killing the frogs. They're removing frogs from the populations that can't be replaces. It's not sustainable.

I want a back up plan should the worse happen. I'm starting with pumilio, but hopefully they can serve as a model for other species. Right now, importers don't allow for that to happen, even though protecting the animals they're harvesting is in their best interest.

Again this is impossible w/ half the morphs we have, let alone splitting what may not need to be. Theoretically if they all came from the same founding population on popa and we can`t keep them all, it`s better to get all the genetic diversity from that island to reintroduce by crossbreeding then to have only one pair of each reproduce to repopulate or loose one altogether. Can`t you see that these are not the stock that would ever make it back into the wild? These are for us to manage here, and we will loose a lot of morphs from these imports when they stop, regardless of anything that you or I do. There are not enough people qualified to breed pumilio to keep all the morphs coming in or that came in, period. By splitting them it makes it that much harder to keep any representatives let alone enough to keep genetic integrity. Saying they are all useless hurts those efforts even more.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> I can see great points on both sides of this "discussion" - we definitely need more discussions like this one on here



Thanks Chris, just trying to get the problem identified and what we CAN do as opposed to what`s perfect but unreasonable w/out better funding, control and efforts. It`s possible to manage them just not feasable under a business practice or w/out the proper funding. It takes someone like JP to do the research and provide the population boundaries and then getting all the funding to set up the proper amount of pairs and keep them alive as long as possible to try to keep the populations from diverging and loosing genetic integrity. But when the hobby is all over the place on prices and demand we can`t manage it all. They bottleneck and we loose all our genetics. This has to be dealt w/ before anything can be done about any conservation whether in or out of captivity. If everyone buys solarte from someone I sold them to from my wc pair and they sell them for $50ea because they live at home and I ditch my pair we are that much closer to loosing all the genetics. That`s how capitalism works, the cheapest wins out which is usually of less quality. Then other people who have non breeding pairs don`t even try anymore and then all offspring are descendants of my pair and are all brother sister pairs. there has to be a way to value offspring from fr pairs so they aren`t lost. I can`t think of any. But this is way more of a problem than anything about crossing or locality data.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Not if there isn`t enough people breeding them, you just loose genetics from one end of Popa isle. No frogs in the country are worthy of repopulating, once they hit these shores the problem of introducing parasites back that are non native is too great. Once they are here they are only for maintaining our captive populations. And there are already too many to manage w/ the # of breeders out there. This is what they do when they open a country, they export till they can`t get anything for them anymore, there is where the problem lies, not w/ SNDF doing what they can to provide more info than anyone to mange them IN CAPTIVITY WHICH IS WHERE THEY WILL ALWAYS REMAIN.


I think the zoological institutions working with species like _Atelopus zeteki_ would disagree with your stance on reintroduction. It's not like a bunch of hobbyists would take frogs and release them. It would be done with proper protocol.



> Again this is impossible w/ half the morphs we have, let alone splitting what may not need to be. Theoretically if they all came from the same founding population on popa and we can`t keep them all, it`s better to get all the genetic diversity from that island to reintroduce by crossbreeding then to have only one pair of each reproduce to repopulate or loose one altogether. Can`t you see that these are not the stock that would ever make it back into the wild? These are for us to manage here, and we will loose a lot of morphs from these imports when they stop, regardless of anything that you or I do. There are not enough people qualified to breed pumilio to keep all the morphs coming in or that came in, period. By splitting them it makes it that much harder to keep any representatives let alone enough to keep genetic integrity. Saying they are all useless hurts those efforts even more.


Go through and reread what I said. When you're done, read it again. Reintroduction is a last ditch effort. No one wants it to come to that. What I'd much prefer to see is a healthy captive population so that imports from the wild slow or stop. I think that you greatly underestimate peoples' ability to breed pumilio. They really are not that difficult to breed. The issue I think that most people have with pumilio is that they treat them like thumbnails when they are different. It would not be difficult to get a healthy population going. It would just take more time than some of your more fecund species like leucomelas or auratus given the nature of the animal.

That said, I still want a back up plan so that, for instance, when the Chiquita banana plantation expands even more in Changrinola from the hundreds of acres they already have, that the morph occurring there is protected in some fashion. Right now, frogs being brought in with no site data are useless. Splitting them is a function of the lack of data associated with the frogs. If we had data on where the frogs came from, specifically, we wouldn't have to split them as much as we do. Again, I'll point it out: how many pumilio go unpaired because people cannot find the right import, since there is no site data for those animals? If that's not useless, I don't know what is.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> I think the zoological institutions working with species like _Atelopus zeteki_ would disagree with your stance on reintroduction. It's not like a bunch of hobbyists would take frogs and release them. It would be done with proper protocol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The facilities w/ zeteki are just where they`d come from, they`d never track down hobbyists at this point from pet trade imports for reintroduction. That would only come from special collections for reintroduction and they wouldn`t be housed in a place w/ all those other morphs till ready for release. The argumant has no merit for reintroduction. Where`s Ed when you need him, he`d explain it to you as he did to me. Sure, it blew my whole reason for breeding frogs too. I had to readjust to I`m doing this strictly for preservation in this country and I looked at it in a different way. More like training or practice and education became my reason to do this along w/ trying to manage captive populations. Even TWI/ASN is for managing species in captivity. The ultimate goal is to be able to help w/ managing for rerelease but we realize we have nothing in captivity at this point that would be deemed worthy for such a program outside zoos. 

that again comes back to the laws of capitalism. If people bought frogs from SNDF for a little more w/ site data for breeding and only pets were made of this 06 imports yellow bellies(which never came from sndf) then we wouldn`t have these problems would we. Seems like most of the problems come from people other than SNDF, whether buying or selling. Esp if he has coordinates or"can take you there" if we ever need them, since no other importers do anything about the locales, coordinates, etc. Cayo de Agua from sndf, if the other population looks differnt should suffice as locale data no? what about the darklands cauchero population? What about the locales of almirante. Seems SNDF brought in the only ones w/ site info since indeed all these came in w/ these labels, no? I don`t see them flooding the market w/ anything, they brought in good #`s for founder populations. It`s the other exporters that are scooping them up from the ground. WSeems that if SNDF did the ONLY importing and everyone else didn`t just jump on there may not be a problem. I don`t see you condemning aquamac, reptiledan, josh`s frogs or any of the others that brough in non site specific frogs and id`d by looks, which is where you get the 06, 07 etc. Almirante pdpja06, 07, 08 are all from the same place and all site specific from SNDF.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Just a quick side note.. you don't need site data to manage animals in captivity or to setup a breeding program. Whether you have site data or not will affect how you manage your population, but that is not to say that you can't manage frogs in captivity that don't have specific site data.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> The facilities w/ zeteki are just where they`d come from, they`d never track down hobbyists at this point from pet trade imports for reintroduction. That would only come from special collections for reintroduction and they wouldn`t be housed in a place w/ all those other morphs till ready for release. The argumant has no merit for reintroduction. Where`s Ed when you need him, he`d explain it to you as he did to me. Sure, it blew my whole reason for breeding frogs too. I had to readjust to I`m doing this strictly for preservation in this country and I looked at it in a different way. More like training or practice and education became my reason to do this along w/ trying to manage captive populations. Even TWI/ASN is for managing species in captivity. The ultimate goal is to be able to help w/ managing for rerelease but we realize we have nothing in captivity at this point that would be deemed worthy for such a program outside zoos.


You didn't reread what I wrote. So I will repeat myself, for the third time. Hopefully the last. Reintroduction is a last ditch effort. It is very rare that it happens with any species, but that is a big reason why zoos have animals. So that they have a captive population that, if necessary, can supplement the wild populations. TWI, as I understand it, is attempting to do the same thing with amphibians and hopes to be of use to zoos that simply do not have the space of all of these animals. In doing so, TWI's managed populations would be equivalent to zoos' managed populations. And ideally, they could be reintroduced if necessary, but like I said *that is a last ditch effort*.



> that again comes back to the laws of capitalism. If people bought frogs from SNDF for a little more w/ site data for breeding and only pets were made of this 06 imports yellow bellies(which never came from sndf) then we wouldn`t have these problems would we. Seems like most of the problems come from people other than SNDF, whether buying or selling. Esp if he has coordinates or"can take you there" if we ever need them, since no other importers do anything about the locales, coordinates, etc. Cayo de Agua from sndf, if the other population looks differnt should suffice as locale data no? what about the darklands cauchero population? What about the locales of almirante. Seems SNDF brought in the only ones w/ site info since indeed all these came in w/ these labels, no? I don`t see them flooding the market w/ anything, they brought in good #`s for founder populations. It`s the other exporters that are scooping them up from the ground. WSeems that if SNDF did the ONLY importing and everyone else didn`t just jump on there may not be a problem. I don`t see you condemning aquamac, reptiledan, josh`s frogs or any of the others that brough in non site specific frogs and id`d by looks, which is where you get the 06, 07 etc. Almirante pdpja06, 07, 08 are all from the same place and all site specific from SNDF.


The problem came from the whole system. Importers don't provide site data, and certainly don't provide compatible site data, and consumers don't demand it. That is why we have issue. There needs to be a change, at least, on one side to make anything happen. And it happens that the importers are better to start because there are fewer of them. It's not that difficult to provide site data and not produce that inflated price tag. Is a location really worth $50 more on a frog? Not at all, that's just greed. It doesn't take any more effort to get a frog with site data than a frog without it. The only effort needed is to remember where the frog was picked up.

And don't worry, the other importers know my thoughts. I've ragged on the lack of data at a frog meeting in Josh's house. They're aware of the problem, and my thoughts about it.

Michael, yes, they can be managed to a degree just as a captive population, but you have to keep them separate (i.e. 06 imports and 07 imports) and manage them that way. It helps the captive population, minimally, because you have to manage so many different populations. Were there site data, they could be managed far more efficiently. And there could be that rare possibility that they could be used for reintroduction, if absolutely necessary.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

wow that was a lot of reading. ok you guys both make good points! 

personally i just wouldnt buy from someone on kingsnake unless they are widely known as an expert and honest with this. maybe we should just be sure that we ONLY buy from people with some form of local data/ population specifics/ or codes. it doesnt matter if we keep things seperate (cauchero, darklands for example) because they can always be introduced to eachother in the hobby. but if we interbreed two different "el dorados" than thats it, that morph is tainted. as long as we only buy frogs that have SOME kind of code from someone that knows what they are doing then it will be fine. 

i could be wrong but dont people like SNDF keep the local data secret so that smugglers dont get to the population? and then once the captive population is somewhat steady they release the data because nobody wants to smuggle the frogs then? i read that on here a while ago when the first new "morphs" were coming in (el dorados, rio branco, guaramo).

i emailed him as well, all i got back was "they are from panama". great huh? they are very awesome looking, but i would never buy them because i wouldnt know what the hell to call them (if i did get them to breed). and then there is no point to me, why add to the confusion?


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## Jeremiah (Mar 1, 2008)

Interesting discussion. I personally dont think an animal losses value just because it doesnt have specific site data*. I like these pumilio because of their coloration, large size, and how active they are in terraria. People may not like them because they are now common or they dont have specific site data but I could care less because I really enjoy them  

Also, I believe two different sources reported to me that el dorado location is along the Rio Saxaoloa(sp?)in northern Panama and they range from yellow to orange to reddish(?) depending on what part of the river... think lehmani....Although I have yet to a see a red one


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

thedude said:


> wow that was a lot of reading. ok you guys both make good points!
> 
> personally i just wouldnt buy from someone on kingsnake unless they are widely known as an expert and honest with this. maybe we should just be sure that we ONLY buy from people with some form of local data/ population specifics/ or codes. it doesnt matter if we keep things seperate (cauchero, darklands for example) because they can always be introduced to eachother in the hobby. but if we interbreed two different "el dorados" than thats it, that morph is tainted. as long as we only buy frogs that have SOME kind of code from someone that knows what they are doing then it will be fine.


I have not visited the "Cauchero" population, but I hope to this summer. But based on the frogs that I've seen at Josh's, I would say that they are definitely different populations simply based on the size of the animals (Caucheros are some of the largest pumilio I've seen). I know where Rich's Darklands came from and Caucheros are pretty well removed from them. "Darklands" and "Caucheros" are a good example, actually, of why we need to have site data. They're both on the Aguacate peninsula, but I'd guess that they're different.



> i could be wrong but dont people like SNDF keep the local data secret so that smugglers dont get to the population? and then once the captive population is somewhat steady they release the data because nobody wants to smuggle the frogs then? i read that on here a while ago when the first new "morphs" were coming in (el dorados, rio branco, guaramo).


See, I don't really buy that. Smugglers aren't really concerned with what is easily obtained. Pumilio are pretty common in the western world. There wouldn't be the demand for them. Now, for animals like Atelopus, that would be justified. Personally, if they even do know where frogs came from, I'd be inclined to think that they're protecting their supply from other exporters than protecting them from smugglers.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> I have not visited the "Cauchero" population, but I hope to this summer. But based on the frogs that I've seen at Josh's, I would say that they are definitely different populations simply based on the size of the animals (Caucheros are some of the largest pumilio I've seen). I know where Rich's Darklands came from and Caucheros are pretty well removed from them. "Darklands" and "Caucheros" are a good example, actually, of why we need to have site data. They're both on the Aguacate peninsula, but I'd guess that they're different.
> 
> 
> 
> See, I don't really buy that. Smugglers aren't really concerned with what is easily obtained. Pumilio are pretty common in the western world. There wouldn't be the demand for them. Now, for animals like Atelopus, that would be justified. Personally, if they even do know where frogs came from, I'd be inclined to think that they're protecting their supply from other exporters than protecting them from smugglers.


Hey JP, 
Trying to get to my brother's this Wednesday. Are you able to pick up your Darkland from my brother's? 

Carry on...

Rich


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> See, I don't really buy that. Smugglers aren't really concerned with what is easily obtained. Pumilio are pretty common in the western world. There wouldn't be the demand for them. Now, for animals like Atelopus, that would be justified. Personally, if they even do know where frogs came from, I'd be inclined to think that they're protecting their supply from other exporters than protecting them from smugglers.


If you go and dig through the CITES confiscation records then one of the most commonly smuggled dendrobatids are D. auratus... it would be hard to find a more commonly available dart frog. 

Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ed said:


> If you go and dig through the CITES confiscation records then one of the most commonly smuggled dendrobatids are D. auratus... it would be hard to find a more commonly available dart frog.
> 
> Ed


I don't claim to understand smuggling and such, but couldn't that have a lot to do with the widespread and for the most part abundant populations of auratus? I think that no matter what the price tag is on the animal there is always going to be someone that is willing to make even the smallest amount of money to smuggle it. Even though the demand among true hobbyist may be low for a particular animal, there is still a value in the market of non hobbyist that see the cheap frog at the pet store and think it's pretty.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Our frogs, these frogs in the trade already, will not be used for anything other than practice and managing our own populations. TWI is trying to get the clout to be able to help w/ the overflow from zoos and institutions, if needed(well of course it`s needed). At said time there will be a special import or we will receive cb offspring from said projects. The problem lies in the continuation of exportation for pets when we have already got a founder population and capitalism and the flavor of the month scenerio or the unwanted common species scenerio or the little brown frog scenerio in the trade, not SNDF, not Josh`s frogs or any other of the dart frog salesman. They are trying to manage what they can`t control or in SNDF`s case, actually spend the money on air fare to go find new morphs, coordinate care and packaging and seperation of locales and have some control on a small amount of what comes in and yes that costs more.
As I said, unless you give me population boundaries your GPS coordinates don`t mean much, and I think they`re bigger even though I haven`t been there dowsn`t help. As w/ leopards just because there is a difference in color, pattern or size doesn`t mean they aren`t the same population. If so there would be a problem w/ the orange frogs in the popa n pop. You`ll then break up a population into 2,3,5 or more morphs. There aren`t enough people breeding to maintain these morphs let alone extra made up morphs due to specific locality of a much larger population. For all intents and purposes of our captive collections, at this point and time it`s better to have less morphs to maintain the genetic integrity of what we have here to manage.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> As I said, unless you give me population boundaries your GPS coordinates don`t mean much, and I think they`re bigger even though I haven`t been there dowsn`t help. As w/ leopards just because there is a difference in color, pattern or size doesn`t mean they aren`t the same population. If so there would be a problem w/ the orange frogs in the popa n pop. You`ll then break up a population into 2,3,5 or more morphs. There aren`t enough people breeding to maintain these morphs let alone extra made up morphs due to specific locality of a much larger population. For all intents and purposes of our captive collections, at this point and time it`s better to have less morphs to maintain the genetic integrity of what we have here to manage.


You really don't understand the purpose of GPS coordinates. It allows one to assess how close populations are to one another. Hopefully, when I do my thesis work, I'll have ideas on the population ranges for the various morphs. That said, methods to determine population ranges are very good. GIS methods can determine different vegetation types within, usually, 10 meters or so. They can determine agriculture from forest from swamp, etc. As such, I can determine population ranges.

That said, we're talking about frogs. Not leopards. Leopards have extremely large ranges (and the color differences are genetic anomalies like the Orange Popas as best as I can tell). These frogs have a home range of a couple meters. Dispersal is very limited. Here's a very easy example for you:










This is the Chiquita banana plantation I talked about in Changuinola. You can't tell me that frogs NW of this plantation and SE of this plantation are possibly the same. They aren't. They're separated by a biological desert. This isn't terribly uncommon in this area. I think that you'd be surprised at how much agriculture is in this area separating populations. I think that there might be some ambiguity for some populations, but I think that a number of the populations will be fairly well defined.

You also don't appear to understand how what I propose would lessen the number of morphs to manage. As we have it now, we treat different imports as separate populations. Frogs imported in 2007 are treated as a separate population from frogs that are imported in 2006. Now, if we had site data, we could determine if these frogs truly are part of the same population or are different. And chances are, on many of them, we're going to find that they're the same. What the hobby does now is make artificial populations. We keep everything separate for fear of mixing incorrectly. What I propose would help in establishing the actual populations.

Ed, are the auratus up there, though, because imports don't seem to be as high? I'm not an expert on auratus, but I don't seem to think that they're imported all that much? People love to get new blood, so if imports on auratus are low, then it would stand to reason that there is a demand for those frogs.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I was talking leopard frogs, they vary in color and size and if we were to use that you`d seperate animals which normally breed together. The bananna plantation is a human made barrier to breeding. I bet they interbred before that. As for the man creek 06 and man creek 08, I didn`t start that. Your right it is not a good idea to seperate that way but someones idea early on of them collecting from different areas different times is what brought this about. The idea of mixing is sooo frowned upon that this problem was created. These animals aren`t auratus and leucs we`re crossing, they are a single species which seems to be very diverse outwardly. Personally I think that none of those imports(06 this and 07 that) will have anything left represented in the hobby. It`s hard enough to find offspring from SNDF`s locale specific imports let alone the offspring from people who would rather save the cash and buy unknowns. Usually that kind of corner cutting to save money doesn`t get you any success in the breeding category. Most of them were untreated and not handled as well as they came thru other importers.
Have you ever worked w/ exporters and collectors from the villages. Most are just kids and they are going to laugh if you ask for GPS coordinates for pets at $.01 ea. And even then if you get 6-10 different gps coordinates for one population there is again too many to work w/ and we loose most of them anyway.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> I was talking leopard frogs, they vary in color and size and if we were to use that you`d seperate animals which normally breed together. The bananna plantation is a human made barrier to breeding. I bet they interbred before that.


Within species, like the Northern Leopard Frog, color differences are genetic anomalies. But there are many species of Leopard Frog.

As for the banana plantation, that was just a simple example so that you could grasp the concept. But, that said, no, they didn't interbreed before the banana plantation because of the river there. That's a physical barrier that the frogs are very unlikely to cross. It's laughable to even think that a little frog of 20mm that can't swim well would be able to cross such a barrier. Once again, you'd be surprised at how many of such barriers are there. And even if they're human made, it's a barrier, so the population should be treated as separate. The Eastern and Western Fox Snakes were elevated to species status for this reason. As a scientist, it's my job to understand these sort of dynamics.



> These animals aren`t auratus and leucs we`re crossing, they are a single species which seems to be very diverse outwardly.


The fact that they are so diverse tells me that we should strive to save as much as we can, as far as genetic material. Pumilio diverged relatively recently, so that tells me that they have the capability to lose genes rather easily. The fact that even on the same island, you can have two morphs that are completely different, it tells me that the genetics can change rather easily, and if we start crossing without proper knowledge, then we'll forever lose those genetics.



> Have you ever worked w/ exporters and collectors from the villages. Most are just kids and they are going to laugh if you ask for GPS coordinates for pets at $.01 ea. And even then if you get 6-10 different gps coordinates for one population there is again too many to work w/ and we loose most of them anyway.


Have you been down there? Do you even know the culture? Do you know what is accessible and what is not? Do you know how much locales want for frogs when people ask about them? It appears as though you do not. Once again, I know know these things and what they're capable of. You're just speculating. It's probably best to leave it to those that know, rather than just speculate.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

> As for the banana plantation, that was just a simple example so that you could grasp the concept. But, that said, no, they didn't interbreed before the banana plantation because of the river there. That's a physical barrier that the frogs are very unlikely to cross. It's laughable to even think that a little frog of 20mm that can't swim well would be able to cross such a barrier. Once again, you'd be surprised at how many of such barriers are there. And even if they're human made, it's a barrier, so the population should be treated as separate. The Eastern and Western Fox Snakes were elevated to species status for this reason. As a scientist, it's my job to understand these sort of dynamics.


Birds carry frogs and drop them. There's been some study there that frogs 'may' prefer others with colors/patterns that match their own. I'd imagine some don't care. What I'd like to know is how much one frog can change the genetics of a certain locale and how much frogs of a certain morph will choose to select which other frogs to breed with based on their color and pattern.



> The fact that they are so diverse tells me that we should strive to save as much as we can, as far as genetic material. Pumilio diverged relatively recently, so that tells me that they have the capability to lose genes rather easily. The fact that even on the same island, you can have two morphs that are completely different, it tells me that the genetics can change rather easily, and if we start crossing without proper knowledge, then we'll forever lose those genetics.


Who's we and what exactly are you expecting from hobbyists?




> Have you been down there? Do you even know the culture? Do you know what is accessible and what is not? Do you know how much locales want for frogs when people ask about them? It appears as though you do not. Once again, I know know these things and what they're capable of. You're just speculating. It's probably best to leave it to those that know, rather than just speculate.


I know there's a tribe of natives that take liquor for passage to frogs. I don't know what kind, though. I'm just speculating.

-Nish


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

nish07 said:


> Birds carry frogs and drop them. There's been some study there that frogs 'may' prefer others with colors/patterns that match their own. I'd imagine some don't care. What I'd like to know is how much one frog can change the genetics of a certain locale and how much frogs of a certain morph will choose to select which other frogs to breed with based on their color and pattern.


Some may cross boundaries, yes, but with any consistency? I highly doubt it. Predators of pumilio are largely unknown (there are no records, to my knowledge, of predation events on pumilio). In going through interviews with locals on what preys upon them, it was largely inconclusive. If birds picked them up and dropped them with any sort of consistency, I would think that there would be a little more consistency in regards to what preys upon them.



> Who's we and what exactly are you expecting from hobbyists?


We is hobbyists, and what I expect from hobbyists depends on the particular hobbyist. TWI wants to manage and conserve species, and I want them to achieve that goal. Right now, that cannot be done very efficiently. I don't expect all hobbyists to share this view. I know some couldn't care less, but I know a lot are interested.



> I know there's a tribe of natives that take liquor for passage to frogs. I don't know what kind, though. I'm just speculating.
> 
> -Nish


In my experience, locals know of the frogs and want money for them (and it's not $0.01 per frog). It can vary from morph to morph (obviously, one of the main morphs that commonly gets collected will be known to be wanted, so price would be higher). I've not found locals in the Bocas region that want alcohol for frogs.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> But, that said, no, they didn't interbreed before the banana plantation because of the river there. That's a physical barrier that the frogs are very unlikely to cross. It's laughable to even think that a little frog of 20mm that can't swim well would be able to cross such a barrier. Once again, you'd be surprised at how many of such barriers are there. And even if they're human made, it's a barrier, so the population should be treated as separate. The Eastern and Western Fox Snakes were elevated to species status for this reason. As a scientist, it's my job to understand these sort of dynamics.


JP,

While I wholeheartedly support your ideas and opinions in this thread, one should be careful about using the generalization of geographic boundaries as a mode of speciation. It is a very general and simplistic view and quite often is just not the case. There are many examples to the contrary. I have linked one of the classics below:

http://eebweb.arizona.edu/Courses/Ecol485_585/Readings/Patton_et_al_1994.pdf


Keep up the good work!


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

> If birds picked them up and dropped them with any sort of consistency


Who said it had to be consistent? It just takes one frog to put genes into a population. It would depend on the morph next door's desire to breed with it.



> TWI wants to manage and conserve species, and I want them to achieve that goal. Right now, that cannot be done very efficiently.


I guess we can do the best we can with what we have. People who would buy them from a pet shop as soon as from someone here just want them as pets. People who want them to conserve them in the hobby will want to know where they came from (if possible). As long as they keep that information, things should be fine. There are people who want to keep the groups of imports separate and that's all you can really say. Very few people can get frogs from someone who imported frogs as part of scientific study. Otherwise, they're getting them from people who are doing it to make money or (far less likely but hopefully) with conservation in mind. Some importers go the extra mile to get somewhat specific (no completely accurage GPS coords) site data and that's the best that an average hobbiest can get. 

Aaron is right, though. I checked my 'The Guide to Owning Poison Frogs' book the other night and it stated that histrionicus and pumilio were the common 20-30 dollar frogs whereas azureus were very expensive, very rare and 'possibly' illegal. It takes more than a few people to keep the eggfeeders going and the more morphs we have the more people it takes to keep the different morphs alive in the hobby.

-Nish


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

edwardsatc said:


> JP,
> 
> While I wholeheartedly support your ideas and opinions in this thread, one should be careful about using the generalization of geographic boundaries as a mode of speciation. It is a very general and simplistic view and quite often is just not the case. There are many examples to the contrary. I have linked one of the classics below:
> 
> ...


Yep, I know that they're rather simplistic. I'm trying to keep it as such because of the audience I am speaking too. I know that many more factors need to be taken into account than simple geographic boundaries. Everything from vegetation, elevation, physical boundaries, species life history and behaviors, etc. needs to be taken into account to develop ranges.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> ...TWI wants to manage and conserve species, and I want them to achieve that goal. Right now, that cannot be done very efficiently...


I think you need to separate conservation of species in the hobby from conservation of species in the wild. As long as there are $$'s being made off of frogs for personal profit, the "wild" conservation groups can not work with these frogs bred by hobbyists for profit. There is an instant conflict of interest. When I say "for profit" I don't mean xyz big time breeder, I mean anyone who has ever bought or sold a dart frog for any amount, which means the majority of the hobby. In addition, when you are talking about conservation of wild populations you need a ton more data than even your experienced hobbyist keeps/knows, including GPS type coordinate information on the animals, to participate in any type of true "wild" conservation effort. As stated previously this information is likely only going to come with frogs gathered by acredited scientists/universities for scientific purposes. These frogs come with stipulations that they (and any offspring) are not to be released into the pet trade. 

Now to conserve species within the hobby, that can be done with a lot less data and can be done with frogs being bred for profit by hobbyists. I do think it is possible for a hobbyist who breeds frogs for profit to also maintain species/morphs that he would not sell and therefore be eligible to participate in a "wild" conservation effort. But I personally don't think that will happen in many cases and would be limited to only a few hobbyists out there. Mainly because you would not be able to regulate it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> Ed, are the auratus up there, though, because imports don't seem to be as high? I'm not an expert on auratus, but I don't seem to think that they're imported all that much? People love to get new blood, so if imports on auratus are low, then it would stand to reason that there is a demand for those frogs.


Well lets put it into perspective between 1991-1996 about 15,000 wc D. auratus were imported into the USA. Only Nicaragua has set a quota on this species and they have been consistently imported into the USA since that time. During the initial big rush of new pumilio morphs a few years ago, a large number of auratus were shipped to the USA.... 
Panama does not have a export quota set for auratus so its not easy to get the exact numbers for the last few years. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> Yep, I know that they're rather simplistic. I'm trying to keep it as such because of the audience I am speaking too. I know that many more factors need to be taken into account than simple geographic boundaries. Everything from vegetation, elevation, physical boundaries, species life history and behaviors, etc. needs to be taken into account to develop ranges.



If pumilio had a problem w/ rivers I don`t think they`d be as widespread as they are.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> If pumilio had a problem w/ rivers I don`t think they`d be as widespread as they are.


Pumilio have been around for thousands of years. The landscape as changed greatly over time. The rivers we see now were not always there and the landscape was not as we see it now. That explains their distribution.

Like I said, it's laughable to even suggest that a pumilio, a 20mm frog that can't swim well, could get across a rushing river that is hundreds of feed wide with any sort of consistency. In order to be considered the same, they would have to intermingle with a reasonable amount of consistency. Not one individual being dropped every once in a while.


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## SNDF (Mar 23, 2006)

If Monarchman is so concerned about conservation why is he not down in Bocas 
Del Toro trying to stop the Bastimentos Island $400 Million dollar resort being constructed there. HABITAT DISTRUCTION. That is what is killing off the 
Site specific morphs. You should be throwing yourself in front of the bulldozers 
to save their habitat from being destroyed. 

If only I had the foresight to buy up the Bocas Islands 20 years ago I surely would be set for life by now. This is not Peru. What Mark Pepper has done in Peru is truly the exception. He has put his money back into conservation without even knowing if he would ever make any money after his considerable investment. Even today the very
frog morphs he has spent so much time, effort and money to collect, captive breed and export legally are being collected in the wild and smuggled out of Peru. Often when smugglers get their frogs there is considerable habitat destruction. 
In Panama smugglers have cut down numerous trees to get the Vincentei and Arboreus.
Frogs that are now fairly common in Europe. They have never been legally exported from Panama. 
While at Couchero the guy and his family that oversee the chocolate tree farm told my wife and me that a guy from Germany would come out there every other month and hire the children there to collect all the pumilio they could for $1each. He would return several days later to pick up the 200 plus frogs they had collected. 
These frogs were never legally exported from Panama.

Monarchzman wonders why no site data is being given for the El Dorado? 
Please tell me you are not working for the smugglers supplying site data. 

Some of the site data we supply when selling the frogs we import are from our own 
exploration and observation in the wild. The rest we have to depend on the exporter
for the site data. When he asks us not to give the site specific information we will use 
a code or a name (El Dorado) to sell OUR frogs we bring in.
We have observed in a very small area that a site specific morph can vary quite a bit in
their coloration and markings. Then again we do not consider ourselves the”Pumilio
King”. 

SNDF can not be responsible for the other importers or any information they will or will not supply.

You spoke about the non-site specific Coucheros that were imported. So without your approval these can not be considered as accurate site data? Dot on the map with the name
Cauchero next to it does not work? No GPS! GOT IT.
Blue Jeans? Costa Rica maybe?
Northern and Southern Pope Island Pumilio. By the way did you guys get permission to explore that privately owned Island? Isn’t that trespassing?

Monarchzman, (what is your real name anyway?) you’re absolutely right. There is no farm. There are no inspections by the Panama authorities or the International CITES authority.
It is all in our minds. We have never been there. Have never posted photos of the facility on Dendroboard.
Since you are convinced it does not exist then there is one thing for sure, you will never see it. Why would the exporter ( there is only one exporter selling pumilio) ever have to justify to you his business? Don’t buy the frogs. 
Any frogs that you bring out of Panama on a scientific permit can only be used for that purpose and can not be bred and sold to the hobby. ANY frogs that are brought in under that permit or their offspring are the property of the Panama Government and must be returned to Panama.

I believe that according to a number of the Dendroboard pumilio experts that your lack of 
experience keeping and breeding dart frogs would preclude you from owning any of these imported questionable site data frogs. Sorry, can’t sell you any.

As far as Marcus Breece of Simply Natural Dart Frogs having to report or respond to YOU as to our business practices or what we have done for conservation or you will 
“report it as being unresponsive”. I think the general public understands that several weeks in Panama does not qualify you as an expert on amphibians or their conservation.

You will find that working with the exporters and helping them understand the importance of the site data and the health of the frogs they export.has resulted in us being able to importas many as 300 pumilio and auratus at one time without any fatalities. 
It was not always like this. 70%-80% of the first pumilio imported into this country 
5 years ago did not make it. Things have changed. I would like to think we had something to do with that. Maybe yes-maybe no.

To Quote you “ these are my comments and mine alone”.
In a perfect world there would be no habitat destruction, no Chytrid. All morphs of 
Dart frogs, of all amphibians would be exported in perfect condition and bred consistently and in sufficient numbers to supply the demand world wide and never again would any further imports be needed. Does not look like that will happen. If we truly want to impact the export of any frogs then don’t buy them. Any of them! Will this help
prevent their extinction? I have yet to see any evidence that the LEGAL export of a dart frog from a country has caused their extinction. 

Just wanted to thank you for keeping your comments “rather simplistic for the audience you are speaking to”. I for one not being the “extremely fast learner” that you are and being the really slow learner that I am with years of experience working with dart frogs
could never hope to understand any of this.

Marcus Breece
Simply Natural Dart Frogs


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

There are some very good points being discussed (and at times argued) within this thread. I would like to call everyones attention to the UA that prohibits personal attacks. There is too much good info here for posts to be lost because of personal attacks.

Also, there are a couple points/questions I would like to bring up.



MonarchzMan said:


> Michael, yes, they can be managed to a degree just as a captive population, but you have to keep them separate (i.e. 06 imports and 07 imports) and manage them that way. It helps the captive population, minimally, because you have to manage so many different populations. Were there site data, they could be managed far more efficiently. And there could be that rare possibility that they could be used for reintroduction, if absolutely necessary.


JP - one aspect that you seem to be overlooking is the value of locality-less frogs in perfecting husbandry practices for a given species. You mentioned earlier that Pumilio were not that difficult to breed. You are partly correct, but partly very wrong. They are not a frog like Azureus or Imitator - they can have their own unique intricacies regarding reproduction. I am pretty confident that once you start breeding pumilio (both WC and CB animals) - you will see this. There is still much that needs to be learned regarding their nutrition and husbandry. Imported frogs - even without any semblance of locale data can play an important role in our understanding of the species. And this info can play into captive breeding programs of site-specific frogs if necessary. Furthermore, propagation of species in captivity (even those with questionable locality data) will reduce demand of WC animals.

In terms of conservation, since reintroduction is a last-ditch effort - which is of greater value - a very small founder population of frogs with exact locality info - or a large founder population that captures a very high percentage of the genetic variability of the population with approximate locale info? This has been something that I have given some thought to in terms of TWI/ASN management of species.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

SNDF said:


> If Monarchman is so concerned about conservation why is he not down in Bocas Del Toro trying to stop the Bastimentos Island $400 Million dollar resort being constructed there. HABITAT DISTRUCTION. That is what is killing off the Site specific morphs. You should be throwing yourself in front of the bulldozers to save their habitat from being destroyed.


First, thanks for showing up. I appreciate hearing from you.

Now onto comments. Seeing things like the Red Frog Beach Project in person is one of the things that motivates me as much as I am. ANAM wants to know how destroying 9% of the island can affect the flora and fauna, including the frogs. I hope that my research will provide them such information.



> Monarchzman wonders why no site data is being given for the El Dorado? Please tell me you are not working for the smugglers supplying site data.


I must say that this is a first to be accused of working for the smugglers. If my comments have not been clear, my primary concern in regards to pumilio is conservation. Like I said, I'd ideally like to see imports stop.



> Some of the site data we supply when selling the frogs we import are from our own
> exploration and observation in the wild. The rest we have to depend on the exporter for the site data. When he asks us not to give the site specific information we will use a code or a name (El Dorado) to sell OUR frogs we bring in. We have observed in a very small area that a site specific morph can vary quite a bit in their coloration and markings. Then again we do not consider ourselves the ”Pumilio King”.


Hence why site data is important. If only ambiguous information is given for frogs, frogs that can vary widely in color would be incorrectly separated. A good example of this was the Bastimentos frogs: Gold dust, green dust, red, orange, etc. I don't consider myself the "pumilio king" but simply a concerned pumilio researcher.



> SNDF can not be responsible for the other importers or any information they will or will not supply.


Nor would I hold SNDF responsible for anything but their own actions.



> Northern and Southern Pope Island Pumilio. By the way did you guys get permission to explore that privately owned Island? Isn’t that trespassing?


Yep, we got permission. We waited in the "common building" at Popa North (the first large, thatched building on the left as you enter the village) while we waited for permission to be granted. And we visited the school on Popa South and asked the teachers there if it was okay that we collected data on frogs. That satisfy your inquiry?



> Monarchzman, (what is your real name anyway?) you’re absolutely right. There is no farm. There are no inspections by the Panama authorities or the International CITES authority. It is all in our minds. We have never been there. Have never posted photos of the facility on Dendroboard. Since you are convinced it does not exist then there is one thing for sure, you will never see it. Why would the exporter ( there is only one exporter selling pumilio) ever have to justify to you his business? Don’t buy the frogs. Any frogs that you bring out of Panama on a scientific permit can only be used for that purpose and can not be bred and sold to the hobby. ANY frogs that are brought in under that permit or their offspring are the property of the Panama Government and must be returned to Panama.


My name is J.P. Lawrence. I have asked before about farms, and my inquiry is still open. I will remain skeptical until I see it. Good science isn't done by assuming things exist based on a public forum. I've asked before if anyone has knowledge of where farms were or who to contact, and no one gave me any solid information, just ideas on where to look. I've asked researchers, who have given me their opinions (which are consistent with mine). So given that and the fact that everyone seems to have a hush-hush policy in regards to something that is GOOD, I would think that it's safe to assume that they're not there. If you have information to the otherwise, I welcome it.



> I believe that according to a number of the Dendroboard pumilio experts that your lack of experience keeping and breeding dart frogs would preclude you from owning any of these imported questionable site data frogs. Sorry, can’t sell you any.


Given that my breeding practices and successes are known to very few people, I am rather curious how these pumilio breeders know so much about my practices. But it's okay, like I said, I'm not terribly interested in pumilio that I do not know where they came from. Which is too bad, ultimately. Not for me. But for pumilio.



> As far as Marcus Breece of Simply Natural Dart Frogs having to report or respond to YOU as to our business practices or what we have done for conservation or you will
> “report it as being unresponsive”. I think the general public understands that several weeks in Panama does not qualify you as an expert on amphibians or their conservation.


It's your prerogative to choose to respond or not. I would hope that you would knowing that it's for the conservation of our shared interest, _Oophaga pumilio_, but you certainly would not be required to do so. I'll report what I find. And really, there are methods I plan on going through to get the answers I'm seeking. The general public has already voiced their opinions on whether they'd consider me an expert or not on amphibians and their conservation based on their asking me for opinions, interviews, and articles. I think that several _months_ in the tropics adds to that expertise.



> You will find that working with the exporters and helping them understand the importance of the site data and the health of the frogs they export.has resulted in us being able to importas many as 300 pumilio and auratus at one time without any fatalities.
> It was not always like this. 70%-80% of the first pumilio imported into this country 5 years ago did not make it. Things have changed. I would like to think we had something to do with that. Maybe yes-maybe no.


I'm very happy that health of frogs has been improved over time. But that alone does not help the frogs. There are a number of us in the hobby that want to manage populations in captivity to reduce the demand for imported frogs. While I may be the most prominent voice in this thread, I guarantee you many hold the same view as I. SNDF is in the unique position to actually see what its buyers want to do with the frogs they import by looking at Dendroboard. I would hope that the would lead the change to help facilitate efficient captive breeding of these animals.



> To Quote you “ these are my comments and mine alone”. In a perfect world there would be no habitat destruction, no Chytrid. All morphs of Dart frogs, of all amphibians would be exported in perfect condition and bred consistently and in sufficient numbers to supply the demand world wide and never again would any further imports be needed. Does not look like that will happen. If we truly want to impact the export of any frogs then don’t buy them. Any of them! Will this help prevent their extinction? I have yet to see any evidence that the LEGAL export of a dart frog from a country has caused their extinction.


Watch for my thesis coming out in the next couple years (I'll have papers coming out periodically too); I hope to answer some of these questions. That said, my preliminary research indicates that some populations can be as low as 460 frogs per hectare (so the 300 frog import, for some populations, can deplete up to 2 acres of forest of these frogs, and that is just SNDF). I'll also point out that the IUCN lists a threat to pumilio as over-harvest. That is why I encourage people to buy CB over WC.

While I can understand your animosity towards me for my comments, know that it's not a personal grudge against SNDF, but a "grudge" against the importation of these animals and lack of concern over their protection. I look forward to working with SNDF when I start collecting data for my thesis in regards to effects of the pet trade.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

rozdaboff said:


> JP - one aspect that you seem to be overlooking is the value of locality-less frogs in perfecting husbandry practices for a given species. You mentioned earlier that Pumilio were not that difficult to breed. You are partly correct, but partly very wrong. They are not a frog like Azureus or Imitator - they can have their own unique intricacies regarding reproduction. I am pretty confident that once you start breeding pumilio (both WC and CB animals) - you will see this. There is still much that needs to be learned regarding their nutrition and husbandry. Imported frogs - even without any semblance of locale data can play an important role in our understanding of the species. And this info can play into captive breeding programs of site-specific frogs if necessary. Furthermore, propagation of species in captivity (even those with questionable locality data) will reduce demand of WC animals.


Very true (and I didn't mean to make it sound like pumilio were like the tincs or anything like that, but that they breed pretty readily), and pretty much the reason why I have been putting in "effective" in regards to management. I do acknowledge that they do have value in the senses you listed, but site-specific frogs would allow for much more effective management, wouldn't you agree?



> In terms of conservation, since reintroduction is a last-ditch effort - which is of greater value - a very small founder population of frogs with exact locality info - or a large founder population that captures a very high percentage of the genetic variability of the population with approximate locale info? This has been something that I have given some thought to in terms of TWI/ASN management of species.


Well, there's a few conditions you have to take into account to answer the question. How long would these frogs be captive bred? If they were only bred for 5 years and then reintroduced, then I'd say the small founder population over the large one. If it's 100 years, then the other way around. But then, when I look at what's in the hobby now, and we don't necessarily have either. We've got "populations" kept separate by importation with ambiguous site data, if any, which makes for many very small, ambiguous site data populations, which I think we'd both agree, isn't all that good in terms of reintroduction.

More research is necessary, of course, but for the best management of species, the more specific data we can get on them, the more effective out management of them will be.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

> If my comments have not been clear, my primary concern in regards to pumilio is conservation. Like I said, I'd ideally like to see imports stop.


and..




> There are a number of us in the hobby that want to manage populations in captivity to reduce the demand for imported frogs. ... I would hope that the would lead the change to help facilitate efficient captive breeding of these animals.


You can not legally distribute frogs that are brought in for scientific study. It may happen and I'm not going to argue about it (for several reasons). But if you have no legal imports to private hobbyists then you can not have a hobby. We wouldn't have the many morphs that we do in the hobby without legal imports and hobbyists will always want the morphs that are currently unavailable. 

Legal importation, while not perfect (as nothing is), is not necessarily cutting down trees and unrestrained collecting that results in severe loss of frog populations. Smuggling (being that it doesn't obey rules/laws) can and does do this.

You can't say you want to see imports stop and at the same time want a hobby that continues to acquire new morphs of frogs. Importation can and does occur without loss of lasting damage to specific frog populations.

-Nish


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I thought that I had made my comments clear a little bit ago, but I guess they were missed. Ideally, I'd like to see the imports stop. But realistically, I know that this won't happen. So realistically, I'd like to see imports be minimal at best, not clearing acres of frogs each year. A number of populations can probably handle the collecting pressures, but a number cannot. And since not enough is known about the individual populations of these frogs, it would be better to err on the side of caution and try to manage them as best as we can and encourage as much data be collected for these frogs as possible. I think it's a very real concern that some of these populations are being or have been wiped out because of the assumption that they can all handle the pressure. Take the "Rios" frogs. Why do we not see them anymore? Were they collected to the point that it's not worth while to collect them anymore or did exporters simply move on? I hope it's the latter, but with how specific river valley populations can be, I think that it could be a very real possibility that it's the former. And if that were the case, it's a real shame because we don't know where they came from and don't know what they truly are. So if the worst should happen with those frogs, we can't do anything to remedy that.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

It seems, by far, the worst thing that's happening is habitat destruction (not overcollecting). Smuggling of small populations does cause big damage, though. You don't see Uyama River pums coming in through imports in any great number. You did see Bastimentos island pums coming in but this was when knowledge on breeding them successfully was lacking. I would almost guarantee that there has been more detriment to the Bastimentos population by habitat destruction than by importation. Some people continue to breed them, though, and they may never be imported legally again. 

When talking to a specific importer, they stated that hobbyists were asking for more Bastimentos pums. However, since the importer knew that they were out there in the hobby and people could be and are breeding them enough to fulfill the demand, they probably won't be bringing them in anytime soon. Then again, he also stated that there are no frogs left on Red Frog Beach due to the housing construction. If we can't keep Bastimentos pums available in the hobby (especially with their spectacular coloration) then it's not going to work (unless breeding them becomes much easier and more simplified). They are still surviving though. I'm more worried about some of the less spectacular morphs (though that's subjective) as they become the frog of the year and fade from popularity quickly. 

As far as I know, only Tuss brought in Loma Partida pumilio and they've worked their way around fairly well. It's proving to be a real pain finding a female, though. Apparently, as far as pumilio go, people have good luck with them in that they breed readily (whereas some frogs like those from Aguacate are more difficult).

-Nish

P.S. Anyone running around in Panama, whether on vacation or otherwise, do us hobbyists a favor and get some average temp and humidity data at specific locations for a given period of time. I've been told by Marcus that the air by the ground at some locales are is much cooler than in other areas.




MonarchzMan said:


> I thought that I had made my comments clear a little bit ago, but I guess they were missed. Ideally, I'd like to see the imports stop. But realistically, I know that this won't happen. So realistically, I'd like to see imports be minimal at best, not clearing acres of frogs each year. A number of populations can probably handle the collecting pressures, but a number cannot. And since not enough is known about the individual populations of these frogs, it would be better to err on the side of caution and try to manage them as best as we can and encourage as much data be collected for these frogs as possible. I think it's a very real concern that some of these populations are being or have been wiped out because of the assumption that they can all handle the pressure. Take the "Rios" frogs. Why do we not see them anymore? Were they collected to the point that it's not worth while to collect them anymore or did exporters simply move on? I hope it's the latter, but with how specific river valley populations can be, I think that it could be a very real possibility that it's the former. And if that were the case, it's a real shame because we don't know where they came from and don't know what they truly are. So if the worst should happen with those frogs, we can't do anything to remedy that.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

nish07 said:


> It seems, by far, the worst thing that's happening is habitat destruction (not overcollecting). Smuggling of small populations does cause big damage, though. You don't see Uyama River pums coming in through imports in any great number. You did see Bastimentos island pums coming in but this was when knowledge on breeding them successfully was lacking. I would almost guarantee that there has been more detriment to the Bastimentos population by habitat destruction than by importation. Some people continue to breed them, though, and they may never be imported legally again.


Oh, no doubt that habitat destruction is a major contribution to declining populations, but over harvest is a definite contribution. I don't think that we should get in the habit, though, of looking at one problem and ignoring others. If we have the capacity to fix some problems, we should. And I would think that hobbyists are better capable at fixing the over harvest problem than habitat destruction (that's not to say that we shouldn't try to fix habitat destruction, but over harvest is something that we control).



> When talking to a specific importer, they stated that hobbyists were asking for more Bastimentos pums. However, since the importer knew that they were out there in the hobby and people could be and are breeding them enough to fulfill the demand, they probably won't be bringing them in anytime soon. Then again, he also stated that there are no frogs left on Red Frog Beach due to the housing construction. If we can't keep Bastimentos pums available in the hobby (especially with their spectacular coloration) then it's not going to work (unless breeding them becomes much easier and more simplified). They are still surviving though. I'm more worried about some of the less spectacular morphs (though that's subjective) as they become the frog of the year and fade from popularity quickly.


RFB pumilio are different from the pumilio we see in the hobby. Those come from western Bastimentos (as far as I can tell; it's possible that RFB have inadvertently been put in there). RFB frogs are still around, but not around the condo development.



> P.S. Anyone running around in Panama, whether on vacation or otherwise, do us hobbyists a favor and get some average temp and humidity data at specific locations for a given period of time. I've been told by Marcus that the air by the ground at some locales are is much cooler than in other areas.


I think that that has to do with the degree of openness of a habitat. I've noticed definite differences between habitats based on how open they are. Do a search on the board. I posted temperature and humidity data I collected in 2007 for the 9 morphs that I studied.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> Pumilio have been around for thousands of years. The landscape as changed greatly over time. The rivers we see now were not always there and the landscape was not as we see it now. That explains their distribution.
> 
> Like I said, it's laughable to even suggest that a pumilio, a 20mm frog that can't swim well, could get across a rushing river that is hundreds of feed wide with any sort of consistency. In order to be considered the same, they would have to intermingle with a reasonable amount of consistency. Not one individual being dropped every once in a while.


It`s laughable to think storms don`t wash trees downstream and across rivers as a mode of transport of pumilio to new areas and to breeding w/ other distant populations. All it takes is one or 2 times to create a flow of genes and be introduced into other populations. I hear they have storms down there too and flooding. 

First off let me say that you walking out of the "field" and saying things like I wouldn`t touch those frogs w/ a ten foot pole and referring to my ideas as laughable is what riled me up. Your walking into our place of business and suggesting my/our frogs are subpar when you know there is only one place to get darts(and those pumilio are the only ones in the whole of the dart frog industry) w/ gps coordinates, everyone does. It`s underhanded vendor feedback and not positive for one person but basically saying everyone else`s stinks because it has no corresponding #`s. 

Forever, they will need to be managed in captivity because they`ll never be going back where they came. It`d be nice for me to get back into research and have the fun job of strolling around Panama getting data on populations but I AM breeding pumilio and managing captive populations. When you have spent the time and labor caring for and breeding these animals and spending your time w/out vacation for 12- 15 years then you have the right to say how to manage them in captivity and what standards CAPTIVE populations need to be viable to OUR needs. Until then you got some real chip on your shoulder about how we should do our work, since these are your first dart frogs you`ll be getting correct? 
Why not put out your research methods and I`ll look them over because since I`ve bred most of these pumilio in captivity I think I have the right to change your research standards. From now on I want you to get a physical every morning before you collect any data because I want to make sure there are no innaccuracies in your observational skills. I also would like more testing to see that your cognative skills really allow you to process the info you collect, O.K.?

Are you starting to get the picture? Your walking around here saying all you guys can get is crap and I wouldn`t touch it because it has no value, your all doing it wrong and I know these things because I spent a couple weeks in panama studying them in the wild.


Sorry Oz. Strike out what you have to.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> It`s laughable to think storms don`t wash trees downstream and across rivers as a mode of transport of pumilio to new areas and to breeding w/ other distant populations. All it takes is one or 2 times to create a flow of genes and be introduced into other populations. I hear they have storms down there too and flooding.


Yes, storms happen, and yes, I have little doubt that frogs can very rarely cross, but if you read the research (Summers work, for example), you'll see that like colored frogs tend to prefer like colored frogs. So not only does that frog have to survive getting across, it has to establish territory or find established territory, and then find a mate that will accept it. Seems like a lot of hoops to jump through. Not only that, but then you must consider how adapted plants are, and those growing next to rivers are well adapted to the fluctuations in water level (I've seen rivers in Costa Rica rise over 10 feet, and you'd be surprised at how little vegetation came through). It's typically in very extreme events, which by definition are rare, that you really see washouts.



> First off let me say that you walking out of the "field" and saying things like I wouldn`t touch those frogs w/ a ten foot pole and referring to my ideas as laughable is what riled me up. Your walking into our place of business and suggesting my/our frogs are subpar when you know there is only one place to get darts(and those pumilio are the only ones in the whole of the dart frog industry) w/ gps coordinates, everyone does. It`s underhanded vendor feedback and not positive for one person but basically saying everyone else`s stinks because it has no corresponding #`s.


You seem to be hooked up that I'm doing this because of Rich. Maybe he'll come in and vouch that I've not talked about this stuff with him in well over a year. No, this is my opinion. And yes, if frogs come in without sufficient information for their conservation, then in my opinion, they are subpar. If you don't like it, so be it. I'm about efficiency for conservation, and for conservation, those animals are subpar. They do have value as Oz has pointed out, but they are not ideal.



> Forever, they will need to be managed in captivity because they`ll never be going back where they came. It`d be nice for me to get back into research and have the fun job of strolling around Panama getting data on populations but I AM breeding pumilio and managing captive populations. When you have spent the time and labor caring for and breeding these animals and spending your time w/out vacation for 12- 15 years then you have the right to say how to manage them in captivity and what standards CAPTIVE populations need to be viable to OUR needs. Until then you got some real chip on your shoulder about how we should do our work, since these are your first dart frogs you`ll be getting correct?


It's amazing how my breeding practices become so misconstrued. No, they're not my first dart frogs. If you'd like to find out what I have, feel free to do some searches. But like I said, I'm a fast learner. I don't need to justify it.



> Why not put out your research methods and I`ll look them over because since I`ve bred most of these pumilio in captivity I think I have the right to change your research standards. From now on I want you to get a physical every morning before you collect any data because I want to make sure there are no innaccuracies in your observational skills. I also would like more testing to see that your cognative skills really allow you to process the info you collect, O.K.?


What papers have you published? I'd welcome looking over methods you've used in the past to see what is applicable to my research, but I doubt it will be, because my research is focused on different aspects of these animals. And trust me, the act of publication is an intensive process and all methods used and results found, so anything I do publish will be sound.



> Are you starting to get the picture? Your walking around here saying all you guys can get is crap and I wouldn`t touch it because it has no value, your all doing it wrong and I know these things because I spent a couple weeks in panama studying them in the wild.


No, I don't say that because of that reason. I say that based on my studying of conservation biology and knowledge of herpetological systems. My travels to Costa Rica and Panama have given me a unique perspective of pumilio and the threats to them. I was there for far more than a couple weeks, and over the course of the next two years, I'll spend a great deal of time there. It's because of my knowledge of pumilio, their threats, my observations of the hobby, and my education that I make these comments. I've acknowledged that those frogs do have some value as Oz pointed out, but in regards to conservation, they are not ideal. Now, in knowing that Marcus has read this thread, at least partially, I hope my concerns have been heard and heeded. I would love to see pumilio brought in that could be ideal. It certainly is possible and not that difficult.

I do ask if you must question my credentials, please research them and not jump to assumptions. I assure you that I am very qualified in the comments I make. And if I am not, I make that known.

I think that this thread has run its course. We're just repeating ourselves and getting hurt feelings. So unless there is anything else about pumilio conservation, let's just read in silence, eh?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Hey JP, this is just out of my own curiosity and has nothing to do with your thoughts and efforts on conservation, I actually really respect all that and am glad you're doing it, I'm actually using your cayo video kind of as a blueprint for the permanent tank I'm building for my cayos, but how long is the longest period of time you had a poison frog in your possession? I would understand if you didn't feel comfortable answering, I just wanted to know for future reference for pumilio breeding etc if you ever decided to post your results about doing that - well I'll answer it about myself first so that I'm not a hypocrite, my longest frog was one of my histrionicus group that I had for about 7-8 years. Like I said it's just for my own curiosity since I'm keeping pumilio now myself and for future reference, thanks


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

JP, if you have any expertise, it certainly isn`t in breeding pumilio and what it takes to conserve populations in captivity. Optimally we need no site data as these frogs will never make it back to the wild esp if their chief threat is habitat loss. Once that`s gone there is nothing to go back to.
And I believe there was a long thread that Summers work was not very sound. I don`t have the time to look up your research as I have pumilio that I`m working w/ in captivity which has been my research for the last 12 years. My area of expertise. And I suggest you stop research work and start finding all these pumilio w/ gps coordinates and help start the breeding programs. While your waiting I`ll manage, just as I`ve been doing, what we`re allowed to work w/.
You do realize there is something called the pet trade which has nothing to do w/ conservation of the species in the wild. It seems you want to have us all work under you?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

And a frog breeder I am and that`s what I`m argueing from, I may not have a PhD but that`s no reason to give negative points. My post was informative so I don`t think the points system is being used right. Your a very good frog breeder but your no scientist? I didn`t know that was a prerequisite to argue a point here.
I do have 4 years of research science/field work under my belt and a degree in Environmental Science/Geology. So yes I have training in the sciences. If you don`t like what I say, don`t read it. I think others find it informative.

And actually by definition, I am a scientist.

Science
ClipArt - Pictures Science 
www.live.com

Home > Library > Literature & Language > Dictionaryn.
A person having expert knowledge of one or more sciences, especially a natural or physical science.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I think it's fair to say that this thread has reached a logical stopping point. While my original question was answered long ago, I've enjoyed reading all of the opinions that have some out of it. On that note....I think it's fair to say that both Aaron and JP are both working to help the hobby. You both seem to have ideals based on opposite ends of the hobby though. Aaron, I understand what your opinions are and that the captive breeding that your doing is great. Surely you can see that if your collection had been built with frogs with better collection data from the start that it may be able to provide a more viable conservation effort. That being said, that was not an option so we must work with conserving what we have and hope things keep improving in the future. Just my two cents. It really seems like at the core of the issue you both agree, but due to the past ways of importations you are on different paths.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Agreed, done.
Just to add, our opinion diverges in what is needed for conservation of CAPTIVE POPULATIONS, He wants to apply research standards to managing what will always be in captivity, further complicating the problem of managing captive populations when we haven`t even reached the ability to level to manage them as is. There is a problem w/ mass exportation, something we aren`t able to get all under one roof, just like the hobby.



jubjub47 said:


> I think it's fair to say that this thread has reached a logical stopping point. While my original question was answered long ago, I've enjoyed reading all of the opinions that have some out of it. On that note....I think it's fair to say that both Aaron and JP are both working to help the hobby. You both seem to have ideals based on opposite ends of the hobby though. Aaron, I understand what your opinions are and that the captive breeding that your doing is great. Surely you can see that if your collection had been built with frogs with better collection data from the start that it may be able to provide a more viable conservation effort. That being said, that was not an option so we must work with conserving what we have and hope things keep improving in the future. Just my two cents. It really seems like at the core of the issue you both agree, but due to the past ways of importations you are on different paths.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Chris, I've had leucs going for two years now. Like I said, I'm relatively new when it comes to keeping poison dart frogs, but length keeping them certainly isn't a prerequisite to knowledge about them. I tend to learn as much as I can about an animal before I get it so that I am prepared for everything, and my rack of leuc tadpoles/froglets certainly is a testament to that, lol!



frogfarm said:


> JP, if you have any expertise, it certainly isn`t in breeding pumilio and what it takes to conserve populations in captivity. Optimally we need no site data as these frogs will never make it back to the wild esp if their chief threat is habitat loss. Once that`s gone there is nothing to go back to.
> And I believe there was a long thread that Summers work was not very sound. I don`t have the time to look up your research as I have pumilio that I`m working w/ in captivity which has been my research for the last 12 years. My area of expertise. And I suggest you stop research work and start finding all these pumilio w/ gps coordinates and help start the breeding programs. While your waiting I`ll manage, just as I`ve been doing, what we`re allowed to work w/.
> You do realize there is something called the pet trade which has nothing to do w/ conservation of the species in the wild. It seems you want to have us all work under you?


I have never claimed to be an expert at breeding pumilio. But that said, I do know conservation and how to go about it, hence my comments. For the best management, site data is needed. You keep on saying how our frogs will never be reintroduced, and as a scientist, I know not to speak in absolute. Yes, it is very unlikely that they will be reintroduced, but do you honestly think that if a conservation program were to see a population go extinct in the wild and knows that it exists in captivity that it would say "oh, sorry, those frogs are in the pet trade, we're not going to use them and just let that population die"? I would hope that you see that that wouldn't happen. When conservationists talk about reintroduction, it's an act of desperation. At that point, the source of the animals won't matter as much as the fact that there are animals there.

Summers work is sound. Having tested his work rather rigorously can coming to the same conclusions, I can tell you that his work is sound. I will, with any luck, test it once more in the most ideal fashion some time in the future to see if it goes three for three. He hasn't gotten to be the world renowned expert on dendrobatids that he is by publishing questionable work.

The pet trade has everything to do with conservation of a species in the wild. With importing animals, the pet trade is directly affecting conservation of that species in the wild. Look at all of the other examples out there of over harvest such as macaws and Southeast Asian turtles. It's in the pet trade's best interest to conserve species so that there are animals to supply it in the future. That said, I realize that not everyone is interested in conservation of a species that is in the hobby, but there are a number of people who are (TWI for example). Is your business going to go under if importers sell frogs with site data? I am serious in my question because it's the only explanation I can fathom to your stance. Site data are a good thing. My professors are always telling me to collect as much data as I can because always ignore data if need be. That's exactly what I'm proposing here. Get as much data as possible so that those of us interested can work with it.

And for the record, I have no idea on your points, but know that I did not give you any negative points. I don't use the point system because of the tendency to give out ratings on a whim. So, while I doubt I deserved the negative rating for being "a researcher but no breeder," it ultimately is nullified by the positive ratings I've received from my stance. But like I said, I didn't give you such a rating, and I would stake my reputation as a pumilio researcher on that.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

So I`m supposed to throw out my whole collection because there are no #`s attached? My collection has named site data. What I have a problem w/ is someone who has never worked w/ pumilio before trying to make the standard for captive frog populations. My frogs have site data just not measuring up to your standards. Wait, No one does except the frogs brought into the pet trade from your research. I guess everyone should throw out their frogs now, we`re left w/ on pair of each morph(which we don`t even have GPS coordinates of the boundaries of their populations so we`ll never know what can be bred w/ what in a numbered system) as founders for the whole of amphibian conservation pertaining to dart frogs and pumilio will be the only thing we can save. If you won`t touch frogs w/out GPS coordinates where are your leucs from? Why have those when they were most definately from smuggled lineage?
You keep siting the destruction done to other species, which are nowhere near as fecund as dart frogs in the wild, some of which were collected for food. And the collection of frogs brings income to the natives making them want to keep them there. Preservation means management and income down in Peru, Panama and elsewhere. If they can`t make money from the forest it`ll surely be cut down for some other profit incentive. Cutting off imports may eventually lead to their demise. Maybe trying to force your ideas on others will backfire on you in the future causing just what your trying to avoid. Ever think of that?

As for the points it kinda seems to hit the point of your arguement, I`m a scientist/researcher and your just a frog breeders you should live up to my standards even though you don`t have the means. I thought it was you. And that`s a pretty ballsy thing to say from behind a veil.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> ...You seem to be hooked up that I'm doing this because of Rich. Maybe he'll come in and vouch that I've not talked about this stuff with him in well over a year. No, this is my opinion. And yes, if frogs come in without sufficient information for their conservation, then in my opinion, they are subpar....


Again, you are mixing conservation with the pet trade. Frogs that come in with sufficient information for their conservation are animals that are brought in for specific scientific research and should never be released into the pet trade. As soon as money starts being exchanged for these animals you are no longer about being a conservationist. If you truly want to put your money where your mouth is, talk to Justin Yeager or any other hobbyist who left the commercial side of dart frogs to work full time for their conservation. Talk to Mark Pepper about how he got his project started in Peru. 

Coming on this forum and saying every frog without GPS coordinates is subpar is damaging to the hobby and does absolutely nothing for their conservation.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okay people step back from the keyboards and take a deep breath. One of the issues that I have yet to see discussed is what happens to a population when locality data becomes general knowledge. 
There is a long history of misuse of this information stretching pretty far back and reaching into modern day.
I'll have to go into this more later as I'm typing this on an Iphone and its taking too long.

Ed


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

MonarchzMan said:


> Very true (and I didn't mean to make it sound like pumilio were like the tincs or anything like that, but that they breed pretty readily), and pretty much the reason why I have been putting in "effective" in regards to management. I do acknowledge that they do have value in the senses you listed, but site-specific frogs would allow for much more effective management, wouldn't you agree?


More effective management of site-specific frogs - yes. But do we then not need to collect more animals then? And is the goal not to stop imports? 

We have a very large founder population of the "rough" locale frogs right now - which while you dust off this "rough" locality info - it is far better than the frogs that used to come in as red, green and blue. The true test will be to see if the captive husbandry for this species is good enough to keep these frogs going. As a hobby (containing many with conservation-oriented goals), we are not naive as we were with the original CR Blue Jeans Imports. Many frogs are brought in, some will live, few will breed, fewer will produce viable offspring to contribute to the next generation. But with that retrospective knowledge - can we sustain/maintain the populations we have now?

The only sticking point I have with your argument is that it seems like you are saying the frogs currently imported are worthless. And I disagree. Even if at the very least - they identify the individuals who are capable of breeding these frogs successfully in captivity and rearing their offspring - so when the time comes for site-specific importations, if there is going to be a private hobbyist contribution to the conservation effort (i.e. one of the goals of TWI), the knowledgable individuals are identified. 

But furthermore, is there not important information to be gained from the animals we currently have? As a scientist, you should appreciate the idea that you take what you have and you learn the most from it, as it will inevitably be a source of new information for the future.



MonarchzMan said:


> Well, there's a few conditions you have to take into account to answer the question. How long would these frogs be captive bred? If they were only bred for 5 years and then reintroduced, then I'd say the small founder population over the large one. If it's 100 years, then the other way around. But then, when I look at what's in the hobby now, and we don't necessarily have either. We've got "populations" kept separate by importation with ambiguous site data, if any, which makes for many very small, ambiguous site data populations, which I think we'd both agree, isn't all that good in terms of reintroduction.


Genetics is not my forte - but if you look at the ASN handbook - Brent has written a great section on genetics in regards to conservation. But - if you have a small founder population - you are effectively capturing only a fraction of the genetic variability of the population as a whole. I believe the number Brent uses is 20 individuals are required to capture >99% of the genetic variability. If we start with a founder population of 2-3 site-specific pairs, then we have lost a substantial amount of genetic variability. Even if the number of captive-bred generations is limited - wouldn't such a bottleneck hinder reintroduction efforts? The reintroduced population would have decreased genome plasticity, and therefore be at greater susceptibility to potential threats (unable to adapt to changes in environment [particularly important if they are being reintroduced] or increased susceptibility to environmental pathogens]. And this is only looking at my question in regards to reintroduction.

But with regards to captive management (with reintroduction as the last "breath" so to speak) - which is more appropriate? 

In the hobby currently, there are small groups of breeding pairs with site specific locality information (GPS coordinates). There are also importations with rough locale data (Escudo, Isla Popa, etc.) that are represented by essentially a single importation of a large number of frogs. Then there are unknown frogs (xRio2006, xCristobal2006) that came with pretty much no information - and were categorized by phenotype alone. Certainly not the best way to do it. So, if we are to work with what we have - which is the most important to captive conservation management?

How did it work with projects like Atelopus zeteki? What was the natural range of zeteki before it started disappearing? Was there potential for unique populations? How was this handled in regards to setting up the founder population? I realize this is an extreme example - as the species was in dire peril at the time of the conservation action - but I was just wondering how it was handled.

And JP - don't get me wrong; there is nothing personal in my line of questioning. But, I am just trying to see the whole picture, and these may be questions (amongst many others) that you will get when you present your ideas and your research to the scientific community.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

rozdaboff said:


> More effective management of site-specific frogs - yes. But do we then not need to collect more animals then? And is the goal not to stop imports?
> 
> We have a very large founder population of the "rough" locale frogs right now - which while you dust off this "rough" locality info - it is far better than the frogs that used to come in as red, green and blue. The true test will be to see if the captive husbandry for this species is good enough to keep these frogs going. As a hobby (containing many with conservation-oriented goals), we are not naive as we were with the original CR Blue Jeans Imports. Many frogs are brought in, some will live, few will breed, fewer will produce viable offspring to contribute to the next generation. But with that retrospective knowledge - can we sustain/maintain the populations we have now?
> 
> ...


It appears as though my thoughts and comments have been grossly misunderstood. So for the record, I do not think that the frogs without site data are worthless, simply subpar. Yes, I acknowledge that they have use, albeit not ideal. The fact of the matter, as I see it, is that the pet hobby is the only current method of conservation out there. I am not aware of active breeding programs in zoological institutions for dart frogs. Most seem to be in mixed displays. If those in the zoo circuit know otherwise, do say something. So while it's apparent that some people could not care less about conservation, there are a number of us who do. And to ease that act, I am proposing more stringent practices in regards to frog collection: taking site specific data. I am absolutely amazed how upset Aaron in particular has gotten at such a suggestion. I'm not asking for preserved specimens from every import so that morphometrics can be taken or toe samples so that genetic analyses can be done. I'm asking for people to press a button. If "those people" are so offended by that, I've gotta say that those people should go see a proctologist about their problem.



> Genetics is not my forte - but if you look at the ASN handbook - Brent has written a great section on genetics in regards to conservation. But - if you have a small founder population - you are effectively capturing only a fraction of the genetic variability of the population as a whole. I believe the number Brent uses is 20 individuals are required to capture >99% of the genetic variability. If we start with a founder population of 2-3 site-specific pairs, then we have lost a substantial amount of genetic variability. Even if the number of captive-bred generations is limited - wouldn't such a bottleneck hinder reintroduction efforts? The reintroduced population would have decreased genome plasticity, and therefore be at greater susceptibility to potential threats (unable to adapt to changes in environment [particularly important if they are being reintroduced] or increased susceptibility to environmental pathogens]. And this is only looking at my question in regards to reintroduction.


You ought to be specific in your hypothetical situations  When you said small population, I was considering 20 individuals or so. And the large one, I was thinking of 100+. Given your scenario, I'd agree with you.

Robb, you seem to be confusing collection methods. It's the old square-rectangle argument. All scientific specimens will come in with enough data for conservation (generally), but not all specimens that come in with enough data for conservation must be scientific specimens. Again. Pressing a button. That's all that's involved. If you're suggesting that that cannot be done by anyone but scientists, I think you may be insulting quite a few people. The most ideal method would be to have absolutely complete data, down to genetics, of a frog, but that's not feasible. Pressing a button is.

Aaron, yes, your whole collection is useless, get rid of it. That's exactly what I'm saying. Thanks for not misconstruing a single thing that I've said and not ignoring my acknowledgment of Oz's points. [/sarcasm]

As for imports, check out Costa Rica. They are the model for tropical conservation, and they've stopped imports. See, I think that you misunderstand incentive-based conservation. With the current system, people see frogs as little dollar signs hopping around the forest. They don't see the forest as such. They don't care so much because it's the frogs that bring the money. If we were to switch their views a bit, and instead of showing how much the forest as a whole can bring in far more money completely in tact for tourism, people will be more inclined to care for it, have pride in it and save it. All of that will better save a forest and species than importing. Importing frogs brings in very little revenue to the locals. Very little. However, if they were employed as guides to a forest and show tourists the frogs, among other things, a great deal more revenue would be brought to the area.

If you even think that importing is good for the locals, you're grossly mistaken. The locals of San Cristobal or Popa North certainly aren't benefiting from imports. Importing commercially has always been done for greed of the Western world, typically.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> ...Robb, you seem to be confusing collection methods. It's the old square-rectangle argument. All scientific specimens will come in with enough data for conservation (generally), but not all specimens that come in with enough data for conservation must be scientific specimens. Again. Pressing a button. That's all that's involved. If you're suggesting that that cannot be done by anyone but scientists, I think you may be insulting quite a few people. The most ideal method would be to have absolutely complete data, down to genetics, of a frog, but that's not feasible. Pressing a button is.
> ...


Trust me I am not confusing anything. Scientific specimens come in with collections data because they can in fact be used for repopulation or other scientific means. Even if "non-scientific" specimens come in for the pet trade the fact that they are bought and sold make them ineligible within the scientific community as it is a conflict of interest, I don't care how they were collected. Generally speaking researchers do not buy animals for their research. Especially if that research is intended for reintroduction into the wild. The only animals brought in for the pet trade that might be purchased by a researcher or institution would be for display purposes. 

Importers and Exporters of the pet trade do not want to give specific location information for many reasons not least of which is supplying smugglers an easy take. These are businesses and peoples livelihoods which is why you get the reactions when you call people out. This is also the reason that it is generally a conflict of interest to mingle the two. 

The exporters who own the farms are not going to invite you to their facilities just because you want to satisfy your own curiosity. They don't know you from Adam. If you want to go to these facilities to support some kind of research you are doing, it first would need to be in relation to a qualified program from a university or something like Amphibian Ark. Please don't take this as an insult as it is not meant as such, but a college student who labels themselves as a "pumilio researcher" is not going to be taken seriously by many.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some comments..... 

There is a lot of angst going on here... take a deep breath people... there is some (a lot) discussion that should occur before anyone should start getting upset....... 

JP, just as a interpretational comment, subpar is really hard to interpret in any thing other than a fairly negative context based on the discussion above (I just read back through it). Based on your last post (and I don't want to put words in your mouth), I went back and mentally put non-ideal in the same spots and had a much less negative picture from your posts. (If that makes any sense...) So I don't know if that is more where you were leaning with the thoughts...... 

Back to my earlier comment, historically publishing locality data has been shown to have significant negative impacts on herp populations when those animals have any commercial value starting back with Karl Kauffield's Snakes and Snake Hunting, where after a number of years, there were reports of how those sites were effectively collected out of the animals reported in the book to present day where Goniurosaurus luii was extirpated from the type locality when by publication this was made available to collectors to Paramesotriton laoensis which was also offered for sale within several weeks of publication.... 
If we extrapolate what has occured with other species when locality data became available to the general public we should expect to see a trend like that with some rosey boas and kingsnakes where the animals with known locality data are more desirable and command a higher price. This then leads to one scenario and a possible second scenario... the first is that the morphs that are currently in the hobby are then dumped for the new ones with locality data as this is the hot new standard... which again leads to a lot of frog loss (for example over 15,000 auratus were imported into the USA over a short period of time.. what happened to them...) 
and two, people will label similar looking frogs as those locality frogs (particuarly if the exports are stopped or reduced once a small population has been let out) and/or will smuggle in those frogs and launder then since they will have locality data. 


Ed


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

And like I said, to my knowledge, there aren't captive breeding conservation programs for darts. As such, it's the pet hobby that controls the frogs, so conservation of poison dart frogs largely lies in the hands of the pet hobby. As I've said, there are a number of people that want to help with this issue. It's ridiculous to think that, should a population decline to extinction that scientists would turn their heads to frogs in the hobby. If managed like TWI wants to manage populations, there should be no conflict of interest as far as incorrect breeding.

As for the exporters on "farms," like I said, I have ways to get the answers that I need, and seeing/interviewing operations would simply facilitate matters. I don't expect that people will be very open, but I could be surprised. And as for a college student who labels himself as a "pumilio researcher," I do take it as an insult because it's a comment based off of gossip and not fact. Given that I am rather well connected (and will be doing this through a qualified program), I doubt that would be an issue, and I'm sure that I would be taken more seriously than a person with no background in herpetology/biology short of breeding frogs in the basement. Now, if anyone else would like to attack my credentials without even knowing me at all, do contact me or do research and find out from the source rather than gossip from biased persons who don't hold me in high regard for whatever reason.

Ed, yes, you're correct in your interpretation.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> If you even think that importing is good for the locals, you're grossly mistaken. The locals of San Cristobal or Popa North certainly aren't benefiting from imports. Importing commercially has always been done for greed of the Western world, typically.


JP,
Unfortunately, most of the Western world's economy is designed to take advantage of indigenous populations to provide for our comfort.

The bottom line in any market is that demand shapes supply. If the majority of consumers wanted fuel-efficient cars, GM and Chrysler would have been making them. But they didn't. Consumers wanted gas-guzzling monstrosities to prove they were more successful than their neighbors. So, no matter how many ecologists pressured automakers to change, they had to keep making what the public wanted to buy. That is, until gas hit $4 a gallon. Then, suddenly, consumers all wanted a Prius. The problem is that, while consumer demands can change overnight, changing directions for an automotive manufacturer is like turning an ocean liner - it takes a long time and a lot of space.

So, to take that analogy to the dart frog hobby, if we want collection methods to change, we need to change demand. And that can be very difficult without some precipitous change in the environment (such as $4/gallon gas).

Right now, as a retailer, we're facing tremendous demand to offer "strawberry" poison dart frogs, and those $60 generic pumilio are starting to look pretty good. The only thing that's stopped us so far is our resolution to carry 100% captive-bred amphibians. But, we can only give our speech on the importance of buying captive-bred animals so many times - and then watch our customers mail order frogs from a competitor - before we have to make some tough decisions if our business is going to survive.

Also, keep in mind that like all hobbies, dart froggers cover a spectrum of knowledge and interest. Most enter the hobby near the novice end of the spectrum, not at the expert end. But, that does provide us with plenty of opportunities to MOLD demand, by educating consumers as they move up the spectrum from novice toward frog-addict. What we need are experts like you speaking publicly at every opportunity about the importance of site-data in captive conservation.

It's one of those "tipping point" situations, where, as more and more people start asking for frogs with site data, retailers will start to pressure importers to provide site data, importers will pressure exporters to provide that data, and exporters will start collecting site data.
Jim


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## Jeremiah (Mar 1, 2008)

Just a side inquiry. Has there ever been a documented case of establishing a population of amphibians or reptiles back into the wild ? I'd be interested to find out more


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> ... And as for a college student who labels himself as a "pumilio researcher," I do take it as an insult because it's a comment based off of gossip and not fact. Given that I am rather well connected (and will be doing this through a qualified program), I doubt that would be an issue, and I'm sure that I would be taken more seriously than a person with no background in herpetology/biology short of breeding frogs in the basement. Now, if anyone else would like to attack my credentials without even knowing me at all, do contact me or do research and find out from the source rather than gossip from biased persons who don't hold me in high regard for whatever reason....


Ok so I'll take your backhanded remark as an insult as well. The difference is I don't claim to be a herpetologist or biologist or that anything I do will have a meaningful impact on the conservation of dart frogs in the wild. I have neither the time nor inclination to "research" your credentials. Your credentials are what you have posted here and in other threads and that's what people see. "Oophaga Pumilio Researcher - 1 new morph so far" sounds like a college kid bragging about finding a new frog. Post your credentials and I will apologize if indeed I am jumping to conclusions but you have given no indication besides "in a couple years I'll be working with..." If you have credentials you should have that in your signature instead of something that carries no weight and sounds bragadocious. Take it as constructive criticism or an insult, whichever suits you.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

rmelancon said:


> The difference is I don't claim to be a herpetologist or biologist or that anything I do will have a meaningful impact on the conservation of dart frogs in the wild.


And this is a bad thing? Should I hold my tongue on my goals? Should I not tell people that I hope to preserve the frogs they get so much enjoyment from for the future?



> I have neither the time nor inclination to "research" your credentials. Your credentials are what you have posted here and in other threads and that's what people see. "Oophaga Pumilio Researcher - 1 new morph so far" sounds like a college kid bragging about finding a new frog. Post your credentials and I will apologize if indeed I am jumping to conclusions but you have given no indication besides "in a couple years I'll be working with..." If you have credentials you should have that in your signature instead of something that carries no weight and sounds bragadocious. Take it as constructive criticism or an insult, whichever suits you.


One could say the same thing about your signature. We're proud of our accomplishments. The difference, however, is that I don't make broad assumptions based on a signature that is a maximum of 100 characters in length. Bits and pieces about me, my credentials, and my research are throughout the site, and if you are interested, feel free to search, but I've got no need to post my CV here. I extend the courtesy of not assuming things I'm not certain of towards you; I would have hoped that it would be mutual.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I think this thread needs a time out.


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