# Leucs wrestling



## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

So ive got a group of 4 leucs that are probally almost two years old, ive never heard calling from them and never been able to sex them... so today i played a recording of leucs calling to see what would happen and two of them started wrestling, the other two werent out at the time... do female leucs wrestle to the sound of a male calling or are those two likely males fighting for territory?


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Yes, IME females can become violent when the male calls. I had 1.3 and every time he would call all three females would dogpile and beat the crap out of each other. Even now with 2.2 I get aggresion from the females and all my eggs get eaten.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Females can sometimes be even _more_ aggressive than males IME. If you didn't see them tryng to call I'll be they're two females.


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

LOL alright well thankee, i will be watching to see if those other two try to call, but i just pruned the viv so they are being wusses and just hiding up top.

if it is the case that all 4 are females is it a good idea to seperate them? or are they fine as is?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Link3898 said:


> LOL alright well thankee, i will be watching to see if those other two try to call, but i just pruned the viv so they are being wusses and just hiding up top.
> 
> if it is the case that all 4 are females is it a good idea to seperate them? or are they fine as is?


It's a tricky call. I'm betting that with leucs as long as you don't have a male in there the four females will be fine. If you do have a leuc in there I wouldn't keep more than two females (assuming you have a large tank, I don't see a tank size...)


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

the tank is a 65 gal


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I bet you'll be fine. Just pay attention to the aggressive tendencies and if it becomes severe separate them.


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

Rock on, now for a tricky question... is adding a known male to this mix a bad idea? sounds like it may be asking for problems, and end with frogs being seperated


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

If you've got four females you'll be separating some frogs if you do that. The females will fight over who gets to mate with him and stress each other out, or all four leucs will court your one male and that male will stress out (my leucs always court by the female rubbing the back of the male and following him around). If the other two frogs are male and your viv has barriers then you'll probably be fine.


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

So what seems to be the best ratio for these so called "Group" frogs. 
Everything i have read suggests these frogs do really well in groups, although this thread and what i have witnessed in my own group lead me to believe otherwise.
If there is a best suggested M-F ratio i would like to know as i am in construction phase of a 90 gal vert that i was planning on housing a group leucs in.

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Ed Holder said:


> So what seems to be the best ratio for these so called "Group" frogs.
> Everything i have read suggests these frogs do really well in groups, although this thread and what i have witnessed in my own group lead me to believe otherwise.
> If there is a best suggested M-F ratio i would like to know as i am in construction phase of a 90 gal vert that i was planning on housing a group leucs in.
> 
> Ed


Personally? One more male than female. Try a 2.1 or a 3.2


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Personally? One more male than female. Try a 2.1 or a 3.2



Cheers, Now i just have to locate a few more males!

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed Holder said:


> So what seems to be the best ratio for these so called "Group" frogs.
> Everything i have read suggests these frogs do really well in groups, although this thread and what i have witnessed in my own group lead me to believe otherwise.
> If there is a best suggested M-F ratio i would like to know as i am in construction phase of a 90 gal vert that i was planning on housing a group leucs in.
> 
> Ed


Leucomelas are indeed one of the "better" group dart frogs. A lot easier to well with than Tincs for example.

I use 2.1 This provides an extra male to "call compete" and ramp up the breeding and if the female is aggressive, it provides her with a second male to relieve breeding stress and pressure from the other male.

Females fight and eat eggs.

I use a 10 gallon per frog rule of thumb, especially for larger sized frogs, so I would reccommend possibly, 4.2 as long as it's well designed and planted with visual barriers and hides / retreats and a sloping and terraced rear and sides. oh...and I would make that 90 gallon a horizontal and not a vert. Leucs are a more terrestrial frog, especially when they are larger / older.

Be advised that with a larger group, you will most likely not get good egg and tad production due to the stressors and egg eating described above, but if breeding is not your goal, you can make a go of it.

As always, if you see any aggression, have another viv already made up to transfer stressed frog to.


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