# Oophaga pumilio - is this a pair?



## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Any indication from pumilio 'interaction' as to sexes? Vid shows a 'sexed' but unproven pair of RFB - one of whom calls constantly.

Or is it just eggs / tads are the only true indication?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

The one calling is defenitly a male, as you probably figuered out 

But I've seen other males mimic female behaviour like tapping and rubbing the dominant male to avoid conflict.

so eggs are always the best indication to confirm the female sex..


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

@Tijl thanks for that insight. 

I'm new to pumilio, and the trio I started with ended up being a pair (male calls constantly, female has been observed transporting tads), plus a third wheel. 

I assumed the third wheel was a subordinate female since it never calls and the dominant female sometimes acts aggressively toward it, but now I'll have to watch it for a while after I separate it from the pair before assuming female.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Don't forget males also transport tadpoles sometimes. I caught one of mine on camera 😉

https://youtu.be/PuYXvpnhxzs


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Tijl said:


> The one calling is defenitly a male, as you probably figuered out
> 
> But I've seen other males mimic female behaviour like tapping and rubbing the dominant male to avoid conflict.
> 
> so eggs are always the best indication to confirm the female sex..


Cheers for clearing that up haha!

He literally calls her for hours on end with no reaction - though they've only been in the tank a few weeks....


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Been a couple more weeks now, with both frogs packing weight on, especially the female.

The male calls pretty much from lights on until lights off, but the female seemingly is unmoved by this.

She never seems to move away from, or be intimidated him, just remains uninterested - more interested in chomping springs or being in the leaf litter?


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm fairly sure this is a 1.1 pair - with a couple of people more experienced than me saying the same...

If that's the case - is it a case if waiting or just the fact that a pair can be incompatible?

I ask as the Rio Branco male I added to my 2 females has already has produced a clutch and tadpoles and was added the same time as the RFB pair.....


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Another couple of weeks have passed and I notice the male occupies the upper part of the tank exclusively whilst the female spends equal amounts of times on the floor as well as other levels of the tank.

The male calls very often throughout the day and especially when he spots her - it's him that follows her and she moves away whilst displaying no interest in his courtship behaviour.

They're putting a bit of bulk on and with heavy feeding and good supplement regime (Ranarium), maybe she needs time? Or, as i'm incraesingly suspecting, it's a subdominant male?


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

gex23 said:


> Another couple of weeks have passed and I notice the male occupies the upper part of the tank exclusively whilst the female spends equal amounts of times on the floor as well as other levels of the tank.
> 
> The male calls very often throughout the day and especially when he spots her - it's him that follows her and she moves away whilst displaying no interest in his courtship behaviour.
> 
> ...


If a male is alone in a tank will they still call? If you moved out your suspected subdominant male into their own temporary enclosure, would he start calling? If he did you would clearly know 'his' sex. I don't know the answers to these questions just throwing out some thoughts that hopefully are helpful.


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

minorhero said:


> If a male is alone in a tank will they still call? If you moved out your suspected subdominant male into their own temporary enclosure, would he start calling? If he did you would clearly know 'his' sex. I don't know the answers to these questions just throwing out some thoughts that hopefully are helpful.


Luckily i'm building another couple of pumilio enclosures, so once complete i'll have the facility to separate these and see if it's a subdominant male or not.

A couple of things however :

- I've read that, even in a separate enclosure, some subdominant males won't call if they can here the other males of their locale calling - so separating might not tell me 100% the sex.

- Disturbing the frog and moving, will cause stress and unsettle him / her when the aim is to make them feel as comfortable as possible, as it may be she's either not sexually mature or still settling in - moving 'her' will have the opposite effect.

Just thinking aloud.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

gex23 said:


> Luckily i'm building another couple of pumilio enclosures, so once complete i'll have the facility to separate these and see if it's a subdominant male or not.
> 
> A couple of things however :
> 
> ...


Other times, the exact opposite is true. I purchased a pair of captive bred escudo that had been raised together. Only one ever called, and no aggresion had ever been witnessed. My box of frogs arrived. I pulled them out, and put each one into a 32 oz deli cup with a bit of sphagnum, while I took care of something in the home they were destined to go in. Less than 10 minutes out of the box, they both began calling frantically, then began flinging themselves at the plastic walls of the deli cups, trying to get at each other. It looked like 2 guys in a bar fight, barely able to be held back by their less intoxicated friends.
Sexed in under 10 minutes. Not bad, eh? Except for the fact that I had 2 males, one vivarium prepped, and no females.

Don't forget about the option of putting the confirmed male into a temporary home for an hour, or a week. Take him into another part of the house. Wrapping a blanket around his viv for a while, will help to muffle his calls more.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

In my experience if the male is calling hard all the time, you have two males. When you have a pair and the male gets close to the female, he tones down the call a bit and sometimes just makes soft chirps.

If you have a known female, take out the suspected female and put the two in a large deli cup (like a 6" or 9") with nothing but moist sphagnum and maybe 1 film canister. IME, if it is a subordinate male, he will be calling within a half hour.

When I have 2 or 3 unsexed young adults, I will put all of them in with a known female. I usually have calling within a couple minutes. I take the caller out and within a few more minutes another will be calling and so on. Only rarely do I have two calling at the same time. If I have one that never calls and looks female-ish I assume that it is a female, but I never sell it as one until she lays eggs.


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Split them up a few hours ago, leaving the male in the original tank and the unsexed one in a plant growout sterilite container.

No calling from either one so far...


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Moved 'her' back in to the main tank as the plant growout was a bit bare and didn't want to cause undue stress.

No calling from her when seperated.

And the male stopped calling until she was re-introduced also.

So none the wiser.


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

phender said:


> In my experience if the male is calling hard all the time, you have two males. When you have a pair and the male gets close to the female, he tones down the call a bit and sometimes just makes soft chirps.


With regards the type of calls he makes - I notice he (generally) only calls when catches sight of her - and also when close to her the calls are sometimes a little shorter and softer - I caught it in this video :


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

If you happen to have 2 males and the one not calling is mimicing a female, the calling male still acts normal since he gets tricked.. So you can't base annything on his call.

You say experienced frogs keepers these are a pair, but this is realy a 50/50 guess.. 😄 

There is never a way to be sure just by sexing them on how they look.. I've seen enough males that everyone would claim to be female just by the shape of the frogs..

Time and patience will be your best and only friend in this case. I sugguest not to seperate them and leave them alone for a while.. Stop disturbing them and let them acclimate for at least 3-4 months before you start doing stuff in their tank.

If you happen to have tadpoles and you seperate them, the 'possible' is female is not able to take care of them. So it's back to square one and you still have 0 confirmation.


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## koconnor04 (Aug 17, 2020)

Beautiful frogs! Where did you get them?


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Update

I was busy adding new bromeliads to this tank and removing / cleaning / replacing others at the same time.

One neoregelia in particular, whilst removed, was shook to remove the old water and loose algae and out this popped :



Bar constant calling from the male, i've seen relatively little interaction (with them staying on opposite levels of the tank), breeding behaviour least of all eggs! 

Suffice to say I was shocked!

I suppose I can now suggest I have a 1.1 pair


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

My money is on this being a pair.

Mark


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Encyclia said:


> My money is on this being a pair.
> 
> Mark


Was that before or after you read the last post?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

gex23 said:


> Was that before or after you read the last post?


It was so after! Anybody that has dealt with me in the frog arena before knows that I am legendary in my inability to sex any frogs. I am getting better with Tincs, though! 

Mark


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Encyclia said:


> It was so after! Anybody that has dealt with me in the frog arena before knows that I am legendary in my inability to sex any frogs. I am getting better with Tincs, though!
> 
> Mark


I've just about nailed sexing dogs.....

Getting there


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