# Tads dying?



## short_s (Feb 5, 2012)

So I have had 2 out of my first 4 blue sip tads die the day after I put them in their separate containers. I have 3 more that are just about to hatch out and I am trying to figure out why the tadpoles are dying. My first thought was Vitamin A deficiency, but then I read in a past post about tadpoles dying that you are not supposed to feed the tadpoles for a few days after moving them to water. Is this true? 

I feed the parents(and all other frogs) every day and dust every feeding with either Repashy Ca+ or Blair's Super Preen. Both supplements are less than 6 months old. 

The tads are kept in 16oz cups with RO water/black tea extract. The temperatures are constant at 75F. I have been using 2 flakes of Tetramin tropical fish flakes. 

I have 16 other tadpoles currently from variabilis, azureus, and regina, plus two other blue sip tadpoles from the same clutch of eggs that are all being treated the exact same way and seem to be doing fine. 

I attempted to take a picture of one of the guys, it's not very high quality, but here it is. The picture is of the ventral side of the tadpole and you can't really see it, but their is a red line running down the side of the tail.









Thanks for taking the time to read and any help that you can provide with diagnosing the problem.

Seth Short


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

How soon after popping out of the egg mass are you transferring? I just took a 6 tad clutch out of the petri and lost 3 of them. I have 7 more to move now and I was told a while ago to leave them in the petri for a day or 2. I lose 1 or 2 every clutch so I dont know the exact reason. But I am planning to let these sit in the dish for a couple days before transfer.

Also, I noticed when if i dont pay attention and i accidently feed a newly hatched tad they will die within a day. So I wait 3-5 days before i feed fresh ones. hope this helps SOMEWHAT lol


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

I would not add any food to tads cups for about 4 or 5 days. If they are not ready to feed and you are adding food,the food is rotting and deteriating water quality.I add an almond leaf piece and a bit of java moss to tad cup before they go in,and a very tiny pinch of spirulina algae-this way when they want to graze for food they have it and water quality is good.Are you adding any R/O RIGHT to the water? This is important, imo,to add needed minerals to the r/owater for proper tadpole growth.I remove tads from petri dish when their tails are straight-make sure to remove all gel from tads/petri dish-if you dont the tad can have issues if the gel does not shed off on its own.I usually use a clean razor blade to cut away gel and a piece of paper towell to dab out the gel-then add a bit of water to dish and check all tads to make sure they are clean,then on to tad cups. Good luck !!!


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## short_s (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions. I have been transfering them the day after I see them straighten out, so I will start waiting an extra day. I will also quit adding food for the first 3-4 days after I transfer them to water. Does everyonee use RO Right? If the mineral content of the water was the issue, then wouldn't all of my tadpoles be dying?

Thanks,
Seth Short


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

I don't use or have ever used RO water for my tads. I have never had any issues with sls, or problems after the froglets have mrophed either. I do notice that tads die from time to time but its normally young ones and it usual happens within a week of me placing them in cups. 

I also wait a few days before pulling them out of petri dishes. I would definitly suggest this.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Ive pulled my tads out usually when I notice them with straight tails. I then put them into a RO/ backwater mix tht I have premise in a gallon jug. I add about an inch at first then after 3
A day or 2 add another 2 inches. And I out a oak leaf in there. I feed every 4-6 days but not for the first 4-5 days after they hatch


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## short_s (Feb 5, 2012)

Well it looks like I will have to make these changes and hope that it helps. Ggazonas, do you just use bottled water then?

Seth Short


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

short_s said:


> Well it looks like I will have to make these changes and hope that it helps. Ggazonas, do you just use bottled water then?
> 
> Seth Short


Go to your grocery store and get gallons of water. You can get a gallon of spring or drinking water(same as bottled) for $1.00. Menards has them for 88cents. You can usually pick up distilled water too which you can use for misting. And you can usually refill the water bottles at places too for about half the price, so refilling it is 30-40 cents a gallon


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## crested (May 15, 2011)

Another great addition to tadpole water is some java moss clumps. 

Helps oxygenate the water.


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

Or you could use aged tap water that has been allowed to sit for 24+ hours to allow the chloramines to dissipate.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> Or you could use aged tap water that has been allowed to sit for 24+ hours to allow the chloramines to dissipate.


Say I fill a milk jug with water over night, would that be enough of an opening to let all the chloramines out


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

I use milk jugs, let them sit for 2 days or so. 24 hours is what is recommended, I just let them sit a few days, I don't think it makes a difference though.


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## short_s (Feb 5, 2012)

So does this mean that you guys have decided that it is not a vitamin deficiency that has led to the death of the 2 tadpoles?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I thought Chlorine could evaporate, but not chloramine...

I don't transfer them for 4-5 days. I find, that if you feed too early the can get mouth rot. The first few feeding are tiny.


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> I thought Chlorine could evaporate, but not chloramine...


Correct, common and sometimes dangerous misconception. A little carbon will get that right out though. Chloramine is not always used (or at least not year round) in some places. You can usually find the schedules on the website of your local water authority


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CJW said:


> Correct, common and sometimes dangerous misconception. A little carbon will get that right out though. Chloramine is not always used (or at least not year round) in some places. You can usually find the schedules on the website of your local water authority


The carbon strips the chlorine from the chloramine but doesn't do anything for the resulting ammonia which depending on the pH of the water can be pretty toxic.. People also often forget that the cups are going to cycle which means that there is also going to be a spike of nitrite which can alsos be lethal.. The addition of tadpole tea which acidifies the solution converting ammonia to ammonium which is pretty non-toxic. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Ed said:


> The carbon strips the chlorine from the chloramine but doesn't do anything for the resulting ammonia which depending on the pH of the water can be pretty toxic.. People also often forget that the cups are going to cycle which means that there is also going to be a spike of nitrite which can alsos be lethal.. The addition of tadpole tea which acidifies the solution converting ammonia to ammonium which is pretty non-toxic.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I think I'll just stick to buying gallons and refilling. It seems like a way safer bet. I can get RO drinking for about 35 cents a gallon at my local grociers


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

CAPTAIN RON said:


> .I remove tads from petri dish when their tails are straight-make sure to remove all gel from tads/petri dish-if you dont the tad can have issues if the gel does not shed off on its own.I usually use a clean razor blade to cut away gel and a piece of paper towell to dab out the gel-then add a bit of water to dish and check all tads to make sure they are clean,then on to tad cups. Good luck !!!


 I am curious where you got the info on cleaning the tads,or why the tad would have issues if there is some gel when the tad is transferred into tad rearing cup?


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

I've had the same problem with my green sip tads lately. I'm convinced that it is due the the cycling effect that Ed mentioned above. I recently tested the ammonia levels in cups with newly added tads and it was very high. Don't remember the ppm but it was at the high end of the color scale -and that was without adding food.

Adding java moss and using aged water with tannins seems to be key because I dont have the losses when I use them. Curiously my leuc tads dont seem to mind...

Sent from my SCH-R930 using Tapatalk 2


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## Steve88W (Jan 21, 2011)

Another question is how are you transferring from dish to cup?

I use a turkey baster to slurp up the tad then transfer to cup. Works well if you add a bit more water to the dish first.

As far as tad water goes, I buy the spring water from grocery stores too.

Distilled for misting, aged tap for topping off water dishes or water features, spring water for tads. My egg spray bottle has a couple drops if black water extract added.

My tad cups do well if I prepare them a day or two before adding tads. Java moss, duckweed, almond leaf, and slowly add more water during the first week. I don't feed for the first 3 days and sparingly for a week after that.

Husbandry is a learning experience.
Everyone has their own methods and searching the forums will help with ideas.

Good luck


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Phyllobates said:


> I've had the same problem with my green sip tads lately. I'm convinced that it is due the the cycling effect that Ed mentioned above.


If you go back into the freshwater fish books of the 1940s-1970s, it is called "new tank syndrome"



Phyllobates said:


> Adding java moss and using aged water with tannins seems to be key because I dont have the losses when I use them. Curiously my leuc tads dont seem to mind...


Converting it to ammonium which is pretty non-toxic and adding a source to uptake some of it. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Steve88W said:


> I use a turkey baster to slurp up the tad then transfer to cup. Works well if you add a bit more water to the dish first.


I'm sort of surprised that this method works for people since it subjects the tadpoles to sudden changes in water pressure as well as significant turbulance and the chance to impact the mouth or walls of the baster... One of the reasons I am surprised is due to the perception that dendrobatid tadpoles fare poorly when shipped due to how the containers are handled....... 

I just add water to the dish and then pour the entire contents into a cup. If you wait a couple of minutes, the tadpoles settle to the bottom, allowing the debris and other materials to be poured off, I then add more water diluting any ammonia etc and give it a gentle swirl and then holding the second container at an angle begin to seperate the tadpoles into thier own containers. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

That's how I move tads, too, Ed. I reserve the turkey baster for sucking up mulm off the bottom of the tad cups.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I've used turkey baster, my finger nail, the dump em in a cup, method and all seem to work.


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## short_s (Feb 5, 2012)

Yeah, I have been just adding water and dumping the tads into the cup. Is ammonia an issue with RO water? I have a 4 stage RO system that I use to produce the water I have been using. I fill of gallon jugs(previously filled with purified water) with it, then I add the black water extract to that. 

Thanks


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> If you go back into the freshwater fish books of the 1940s-1970s, it is called "new tank syndrome"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So it likely doesnt matter if java mass is added as long as there is some substrate for the bacteria to colonize- like some leaves or other material. 

If I remember correctly the key players are psuemonas and nitrobacter?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

short_s said:


> Yeah, I have been just adding water and dumping the tads into the cup. Is ammonia an issue with RO water? I have a 4 stage RO system that I use to produce the water I have been using. I fill of gallon jugs(previously filled with purified water) with it, then I add the black water extract to that.
> 
> Thanks


Blackwater extra contains humic acids which reduce the pH converting ammonia to ammonium. I should note that if you overfeed, the overfeeding can still cause problems for the tadpoles (ranging from oxygen deprivation (due to competing with bacteria etc), to ammonia and nitrite spikes. 

It should also be noted that adding humic acids does nothing for nitrite poisoning. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Phyllobates said:


> So it likely doesnt matter if java mass is added as long as there is some substrate for the bacteria to colonize- like some leaves or other material.
> 
> If I remember correctly the key players are psuemonas and nitrobacter?


Java moss will remove some ammonia but since it is a relatively slow grower it doesn't remove a lot of it... And it competes with the bacteria for ammonia (and nitrate can inhibit uptake of ammonia). 

This study is the one that debunked some of the older dogma on which bacteria were involved see 

PLOS ONE: Aquarium Nitrification Revisited: Thaumarchaeota Are the Dominant Ammonia Oxidizers in Freshwater Aquarium Biofilters and 

Hovanec, T. A.; Taylor, L.T.; Blakis, A.; Delore, E.F.; 1998; Nitro-spirea like bacteria associated with nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria. Appl Environ Microbiolo 64: 258-264 They ran PCR searches looking for the gene that metabolizes nitrite. 
There was research by different researchers the same year demonstrating that soils contain Nitrospira. (And in general aerobic soils are very efficent in converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate) 


Ed


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## short_s (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks to everyone for your help with my problem.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

short_s said:


> Well it looks like I will have to make these changes and hope that it helps. Ggazonas, do you just use bottled water then?
> 
> Seth Short


No I just use tap water that I let sit for 24 hours.


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## Capitol City Frog Farm (Jul 11, 2011)

Try feeding tadpole bites.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I use tap water that is aged 3 days. I add a tea bag of Roobois tea for a couple of hours. After the water has "browned" it's ready for use. I don't feed the tadpole for a week after they break the gel. Ive never lost a tad in rhis way I do I lose when I feed right away. I also only give them a live oak leaf in the cup. They seem to eat the funk that grows on the leaf. After a few days I add the smallest bit of spirulina. As they grow I increase the diet to fish flake an blood worms. I've never had an issue with ammonias or deadly PH


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