# What makes pumilio so difficult?



## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Hi all,
I know this is my 2nd thread today, and I'm sorry if it's a bit annoying, but I'm just full of questions!!!!

The care sheet for them says


> This is mainly due to the difficulty in breeding them, as well as their territorial habits


Anyone care to go into specifics?

Just curious.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

pumilio males are very territorial. Also they tend to need smaller food items as springtails. Although they do take care of their young, once they emerge the froglets are really fragile until at least 2 months or more.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

> ...once they emerge the froglets are really fragile until at least 2 months or more.


How so?
Are they easily stressed at that stage?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

some pumilio species are harder to care for them others, just like any other thumbnail, but any in the oophaga genus are more of a moderate to advance keepers. 

they are hard to get past 6 months of age as well.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Honestly, my adults are easy to care for. They aren't any harder than my vents. I'd say their are just a bit more fragile than leucs or tincs. My pair are actually my most prolific frogs, they lay tons of eggs. The hard part is getting the froglets to live, from what I've heard they can be very fragile and sensitive. I haven't gotten to the froglet stage (I have tads hatching right now though!) but from what I've heard, getting the froglets past the month stage is crucial, and they are much easier once they are older.
Bryan


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## jcgso (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm about to purchase a pair of Bastimentos. Where are they on the difficulty scale with breeding?


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

bastis are amongst the easiest pums to breed


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Most frogs you can pull the eggs and raise them yourself in small cups. With pumilio you have to rely on the parents to take care of the tads, and hopefully the female is laying nutritional eggs for the tads to eat. If the female is not receiving proper supplementation, it will reflect in her eggs. These leads to improper development which can cause sls and other problems. Pumilio tads recieve some nutrient that can only be found in its mothers eggs which we have not been able to recreate yet.


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Getting them to breed is the easy part, getting froglets to morph and grow is the hard part. You need lots of leaf litter and micro fauna(clay based substrates also work well for pums) to be successful(flimcans are another for me). Also their small size, people dont realize how small they are, they need micro fauna like crazy. The more springs the better!

feel free to pm for more info.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Also they need a ton of space if housing a group like 50g a frog


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Hey I am going to try to get my man creeks breeding, then get some amazonicus from Derek and try and get those breeding. At what age is it okay to pull the babies? Also would it be okay to put different species together in a grow out tank for a little bit till their old enough to sell? Anyone on here sellin good leaf litter?


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Hi again,
this thread started out completely unrelated to my choice of first frog, but AGAIN I've changed my mind about which frog I was going to get for my first viv. I understand that pums are terrestrial, but if I were to get pums for my first frog, I would only get one because of lack of space. (20EH)
The other reason I've learned why pums are difficult is because of breeding them/caring for froglets. For some reason, I don't have much interest in breeding pumilio. If I do get pum for my first frog, and I'm succesful, I might get a large tank and put a pair in it, but not for the sole purpose of breeding. 
I have two options.
Option 1:
I get some imis, care for them for a few months to get used to frogs, and gain some experience. (I don't like this option much, just using the frogs so I can get different ones, but if you think it will give me a better understanding of dart frog care i'll do it)

Option 2:
Get no frogs for a while, but focus on maintaining my viv, keeping a population of springtails, culturing FF's and things of that nature so I know what the heck I'm doing when/if I get them.

Which do you recommend?

I would like to let everyone know that I'm not one to get into something without researching the heck out of it first. I have read every bit of anything about keeping pumilio I can find, and If you could link to some informative articles, I would be sooooooo grateful.

Also, I would like to know anybody's tips for keeping them and reasons why they won't make good first frogs. O. pumilio are some of nature's most interesting animals, and it would be a wonderful experience to keep them.
Thanks in advance!


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Here is my 2 cents, maybe start with a thumb (vents or imis are a good start) and try it from there. Personally I started with auratus and then leucs graduated from there before moving on to pums. If I was to do it over, would go the same route.
Pums are small and fast (thumbs as well) plus there is the aggression issue with pums, non-group frogs are not recommended for a beginner. The raising of the froglets is another issue, yes springtails and pulling them from the parents tank etc. the froglets are very elusive and mature very fast. Pums can also be on the "shy" side, unlike some of the larger darts.
A couple of months with the thumbs is not enough to gain experience, what is 8 weeks? If you are going to get a "pair" of pums and they are male and female, they probably will breed. If 2 males probably will fight. Keep reading, plenty of info here as well as on other forums.
Sometimes better to go from a to b then immediately to z. 

-Beth


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

do you not like the imis? there are plenty of frogs in that difficulty range as far as care and i think that most ranytomeya and pumilio are pretty similar as far as difficulty goes. a 20H is IMO one of the best sizes for a pumilio pair. and a 29 for 1.2 . if you know you dont want the imitator, or other thumbnail equivalent, then i dont think its a good idea to keep them. if thats the case, do your homework and get some "beginner" pumilio. general care is pretty easy, however IME compared to the "beginner" darts they are small and quick and appreciate peace and quiet (not constantly bothering them) they enjoy smaller food items but the bigger morphs will even take heydei. 

there are cheap beginner pumilio available nearly all the time, and if thats what your truly interested in then i say go for it. but be prepared, and if possible help from a friendly local frogger is always good. build your tank and post pics, im sure people, myself included would be happy to make suggestions.

best of luck,
james


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

No, I love imis, and think they are some of the most beautiful frogs out there. I would just prefer pums. And these will most likely be my only frogs for a while, so I want them to be ones I really want.



> do you not like the imis? there are plenty of frogs in that difficulty range as far as care and i think that most ranytomeya and pumilio are pretty similar as far as difficulty goes. a 20H is IMO one of the best sizes for a pumilio pair. and a 29 for 1.2 . if you know you dont want the imitator, or other thumbnail equivalent, then i dont think its a good idea to keep them. if thats the case, do your homework and get some "beginner" pumilio. general care is pretty easy, however IME compared to the "beginner" darts they are small and quick and appreciate peace and quiet (not constantly bothering them) they enjoy smaller food items but the bigger morphs will even take heydei.
> 
> there are cheap beginner pumilio available nearly all the time, and if thats what your truly interested in then i say go for it. but be prepared, and if possible help from a friendly local frogger is always good. build your tank and post pics, im sure people, myself included would be happy to make suggestions.


And as for the tank size, I just want my frogs to be happy. The bigger the better.

Thanks for the info.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Ok, first of all researching these frogs to the maxx is a good thing before you get them. But it doesn't take away from the experience of keeping these frogs. Getting a pair of imi's to just see if you can handle the care and what not is just stupid. If you want to know then get a frog that you want and that you will put your time into and benefit from. There is no starter frog to prepare with. Each species whether it be Auratus, Thumbnails, Terribilis, Pumilio and the others all require different techniques of care and have their own problems.
To be completely honest, be prepared to lose your frog if you start with a Pum. Yes people have done it before and succeeded with it but its not the way to go I assure you. You seem to have decided to completely jump past any frog that would make a great starter within this hobby and I doubt anyone can change your mind so just be prepared to the best of your ability, the viv needs to be seede, well planted, and away from anything loud that will stress your frog. You also seem to remind me of someone who will grab up just anyone that you like so be prepared the cheap ones may be imports and allready in trouble as far as survival goes.
Have a quarentine container ready and be to spend a few bucks TO GET THE FROG TESTED AND LEAVE IT IN QUARENTINE UNTIL THEN. The info you need is here and if you have really researched it you would not be asking questions like this. This matter has been discussed to death and seems to be a repelant to beginners in this hobby.
I cannot give you any advice I feel comfortable with sharing as I have had maybe only a dozen Pums in my ten years in this hobby but I have worked with smaller frogs and imported ones as well and they are way more difficult than many of the larger dart species. Think about this, They are imported by the hundred yet still in demand. Why? Because they are more difficult than other darts. If they were not then most of the imports would still be around and legions of cb froglets would be for sale but they are not.
This is fact.
Michael


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

> You seem to have decided to completely jump past any frog that would make a great starter within this hobby and I doubt anyone can change your mind so just be prepared to the best of your ability, the viv needs to be seede, well planted, and away from anything loud that will stress your frog. You also seem to remind me of someone who will grab up just anyone that you like so be prepared the cheap ones may be imports and allready in trouble as far as survival goes.


I don't get this impression of the OP, at all. He seems to trying to make sure he is doing it the right way. Otherwise, he could have already purchased a few of the many pumilios for sale on this board, without consulting the resident gurus.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

The OP did clearly make it clear they did not want anything that would be considered a great stater frog. But if Im wrong, well in that case good luck.
Michael


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Poison beauties, 
Thank you for your reply, and this may be a little unexpected, but thank you for being so blunt. However, your accusations/assumptions about me are simply not true. I am thinking of the best interest of the frog. If you think I won't be able to handle pums, just camly explain why. If I were the type of person that thought "I researched these frogs so now I'm an expert, and I can care for them" why would I be asking this question? For the approval of the board? I think not.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

> I understand that pums are terrestrial, but if I were to get pums for my first frog, I would only get one because of lack of space. (20EH)
> The other reason I've learned why pums are difficult is because of breeding them/caring for froglets. For some reason, I don't have much interest in breeding pumilio. If I do get pum for my first frog, and I'm succesful, I might get a large tank and put a pair in it, but not for the sole purpose of breeding.


My pums use every inch of their tank, To be honest if you have 1 pum in a tank, you will rarely see it, I have some un proven sexed pairs I rarely see while my adult breeding pairs are out all of the time. 
Hun, why spend the extra money on a pum risking its well being instead of trying out your husbandry skills on another morph and graduating further with time?
Why the rush? There are plenty of other PDF's with similar colors etc as the pums.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

> Hun, why spend the extra money on a pum risking its well being instead of trying out your husbandry skills on another morph and graduating further with time?
> Why the rush? There are plenty of other PDF's with similar colors etc as the pums.


You make a good point.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

> do you not like the imis? there are plenty of frogs in that difficulty range as far as care and i think that most ranytomeya and pumilio are pretty similar as far as difficulty goes. a 20H is IMO one of the best sizes for a pumilio pair. and a 29 for 1.2 . if you know you dont want the imitator, or other thumbnail equivalent, then i dont think its a good idea to keep them. if thats the case, do your homework and get some "beginner" pumilio. general care is pretty easy, however IME compared to the "beginner" darts they are small and quick and appreciate peace and quiet (not constantly bothering them) they enjoy smaller food items but the bigger morphs will even take heydei.
> 
> there are cheap beginner pumilio available nearly all the time, and if thats what your truly interested in then i say go for it. but be prepared, and if possible help from a friendly local frogger is always good. build your tank and post pics, im sure people, myself included would be happy to make suggestions.


James were your first darts Pums? 
So....he should "give it a try post pics" and ask questions and all will be well with the frogs?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Mapp said:


> Poison beauties,
> Thank you for your reply, and this may be a little unexpected, but thank you for being so blunt. However, your accusations/assumptions about me are simply not true. I am thinking of the best interest of the frog. If you think I won't be able to handle pums, just camly explain why. If I were the type of person that thought "I researched these frogs so now I'm an expert, and I can care for them" why would I be asking this question? For the approval of the board? I think not.


There is a bit of a problem with your thoughts on this. If you did research this info and all info on pums than you would clearly know what many of us would say as there are hundreds of postings on this issue and many others like it. There is no board approval as we all have our own opinions. There are threads and help needed postings not to mention simple care and husbandry threads, quarentine and treatment and testing threads and I would think that if you really did read all of this info and to be clear I have read this entire board's info on this stuff you would not ask why pums are so difficult. The info pops up on wc or cb threads, husbandry threads, breeding threads, testing, fecal, treatment and quarentine threads and many more. There are books and publishings on these issues so to be blunt I dont understand why you would have to ask a question like what makes pums so difficult.
Sorry to be so blunt if it stings you,
Michael


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

i dont find them to be extremely difficult but i find them to be a bit more needy.. like my tincs that i breed and raise seem to be built like tanks where nothing can stop them. but the pumilio they need to be kept in a stress free envirement with plenty of hide places but not to large of a enclosure at the beginning because they need to be able to find food easily. and they need to be fed often to maintain good weight and growth. i noticed when i treated the pums like my tincs i had lots of losses. but i started to dedicate more time to them and things went a lot smoother.. i feel they are pretty hardy once established.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

DCreptiles said:


> i noticed when i treated the pums like my tincs i had lots of losses.


That's probably a good indication right there


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Thanks for the replies, everyone.
After some thought, I have decided to go with imitators. Not because I want experience, but because I would love to start with them. I'll still want pums, but I won't start thinking about getting them for a while.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Bcs TX said:


> James were your first darts Pums?
> So....he should "give it a try post pics" and ask questions and all will be well with the frogs?


actually yes and no. 

i bought my first darts in '99 and i got green and black auratus, BJ pumilio, and powderblue tincs. the auratus and pumilio were bought from a local pet store and the tincs from Ray G in st pete.

im merely saying that if there isnt the same passion with the imis as there is for the pums, and the OP seems to be on the right track researching and asking Qs, then i dont see a reason why it couldnt work. it is NOT impossible to keep pumilio as a beginner with darts, but i generally say to new folks that they are difficult, because they dont want to put in the work or dedicate themselves to the animals and while auratus or tincs can handle some neglect the pums cant. theres something terrible feeling about someone getting pumilio, not properly caring for them, which results in their death, and leaving the hobby, that i dont feel with the readily available CB frogs. however the OP seems like they have a clear head and really want the best for the animal. ive helped a friend get started with darts over the past year or so and i helped him with his first frogs (a pair of solarte pumilio) with the right passion and guidance its not that hard IMO. he now has a very impressive pumilio collection and has decided to expand almost solely in pumilio.

james


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## dendro-dude (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm not very well versed in Pumilio's but... I think (THINK) that the difficult factor is due to their fragileness and specific care. whereas with, Tincts, for example, are hardier

just my thought


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## Bananaman (Mar 21, 2009)

I think you'll be extremely happy with the imi's - I just got some and I know I am . I will probably getting some pums down the line as well. best of luck!


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Thanks. I really want veraderos. They IMO are the most beautiful thumbnails. (next to benidicta)


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