# unhatched tadpoles keep dying



## jcfaur (Mar 14, 2010)

I have had my first few clutches fail which i know is normal for young breeding pairs. now the clutches have been developing, even though its only 3 eggs at a time. seems like small clutches to me. anyways, ive noticed that around day 10-13 or so (based on the link i provided) when the tads are fairly big, their gills are getting absorbed and im starting to see a mouth, they almost dissolve. what could be causing this? i get to the point where they start moving around from time to time in the gel sack but then thats where they seem to go bad. happened twice already. they seem to never get big enough to fill the sack and curl into that well known "c" shape right before hatching.

i lost 2 today. i have 3 more that have started to develop and im at around day 6 of development based on the link i provided.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13183-egg-care-sheet.html


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

what species? are you leaving them in the tank? or pulling them out to raise them yourself? what kind of supplements do you have the parents on?

-brett


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

How are you caring for the eggs?


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## SamsonsFrogs (Mar 4, 2009)

I would also check temps in the tank.


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## jcfaur (Mar 14, 2010)

They are azuerus. I have been pulling the eggs after about 24 hrs. i have them in clean petri dishes and am spraying them with methylene solution. they are in a tupperware container with wet paper towel on the bottom and with the lid on. parents are on herbivite and repashy.

thanks for the replies though.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Are there more than one female azureus in the vivarium, so you have to worry about egg eating? If not, try leaving the eggs in the vivarium for a few days more. Also, I much prefer tannin-rich R/O water (made by soaking indian almond leaves) on my eggs, as opposed to meth blue. 

Sometimes it does take several months for the frogs to figure it out, but I'd think its husbandry related.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

A photo of the clutch would help to diagnose the problem.

Richard.


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Subscribed. Also interested why he is having a difficult time with tads.


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

JC, mine did this, too. I'd say most all of the first few clutches didn't make it. There are some threads here, related to supplementation with Vitamin A palmitate which are worth the read.

Also, for the embryos that "dissolved", did the outer membrane rupture, or was it intact?

I spray my eggs with plain bottled "drinking" or "spring" water, with nothing added, for what it's worth.

Hang in there, it will get better. Good luck!


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## jcfaur (Mar 14, 2010)

The ones that "dissolved" had the gel sack still intact. Looked like they were dissolving inside the membrane.

also there is 2 males 1 female in the enclosure so im not really worried about eggs being eaten. Also, what difference would it make to leave the eggs in the enclosure extra day? Im not having an issue with them being fertilized. The eggs are obviously fertilized other wise i would not get to the development stage. Seems to be happening around day 10-12. im using a methelyne blue solution. i think it was 2 drops per a liter size spray bottle. also i did use ro/di water from my unit which i use to make water for my reef tank. Can the ro/di water be causing this? i read a couple threads and some are saying that rodi water is too harsh on the eggs / tadpoles.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

Just for giggles, try buying a jug of spring water from the grocery store and use that. People have had problems using RO before. A terrestrial species like azureus is probably more suited to having more impurities in the water. Tad tea from indian almond leaves or maybe some blackwater extract might help.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are reports of water issues with eggs and tadpoles that covers the entire spectrum of water "types" from RO to DI to spring to Tap to rainwater.. 

There are no regulations on "spring" water that require it to actually be collected from a spring and a number of the more popular types of "spring" water are actually tap water from various cities (New York City tapwater is the source of a couple of brands..)

RO/DI is highly unlikely to be an issue with eggs as the jelly mass surrounding eggs is what is directly in contact with the eggs. 

Egg rearing is another area of frog rearing that is complete with a lot of voodoo husbandry. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jcfaur said:


> I have had my first few clutches fail which i know is normal for young breeding pairs. now the clutches have been developing, even though its only 3 eggs at a time. seems like small clutches to me. anyways, ive noticed that around day 10-13 or so (based on the link i provided) when the tads are fairly big, their gills are getting absorbed and im starting to see a mouth, they almost dissolve. what could be causing this? i get to the point where they start moving around from time to time in the gel sack but then thats where they seem to go bad. happened twice already. they seem to never get big enough to fill the sack and curl into that well known "c" shape right before hatching.
> 
> i lost 2 today. i have 3 more that have started to develop and im at around day 6 of development based on the link i provided.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13183-egg-care-sheet.html


How long have you had the pair? 
When you pull the eggs are you transferring them to a clean dish or are you using the dish they were laid in? 

Ed


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## andry (Jun 15, 2010)

I am having the same thing happen to my leuc eggs. They also lay only 3 eggs at a time. They also just started laying this year. I only have one tad that is about to sprout legs and this tad was an egg laid all by itself. 

I was wondering if the others were because one egg starts going bad and them ruins the others. I keep going to throw the eggs out and just as I am I see some movement in the embryo. But I know it can't be a good one because they look so gross. Like they are gooy or something. I can't explain. I do have a couple of pictures though. Maybe yours look like mine. 

Lastly, I decide to put the last 3 eggs back in the viv after a day of having pulled them. The clutch is doing awesome. Daddy frog is taking care of them. I plan on pulling them before they hatch to see if I have better luck. So after seeing this I do believe it is husbandry related. Either I am using the wrong water (treated water that has sat out for 24 hrs) or I am just spraying too often (once a day) or something. 

One of them even got big enough to stretch out, the one on the left. The one on the very right got to the c shape an then one day as he moved he flipped over and then he stopped moving after that. The one that is stretched out does not seem to be alive anymore.


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

Ed, in my area most of our water comes from aquifers, so "spring" water is usually very hard. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. 

And an unscientific observation...I usually lose eggs at one of two times:
1. Right away, before any development is visible to the naked eye
2. After the egg begins to swell up into the "bubble" (when the membrane touches the water more than jelly)

So I'm wondering what causes the egg to swell up. Is it the buildup of "waste" from the growing embryo? I'd think that there would be an issue with osmotic pressure, at some point, with the variety of water types that different people use.

Any thoughts?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

GregF said:


> Ed, in my area most of our water comes from aquifers, so "spring" water is usually very hard. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.
> 
> And an unscientific observation...I usually lose eggs at one of two times:
> 1. Right away, before any development is visible to the naked eye
> ...


If you are purchasing spring water, it could be trucked in from long distances. If it is using a municiple source then depending on where the water is being drawn, it could have extreme variation even within a short distance. Keep in mind that spring water is not regulated and municiple tap water counts as spring water even if it was drawn from a river or lake. 

I've hatched dendrobatid eggs with no problems in water that out of the tap ran 120 ppm hardness. I've hatched them in tadpole teas where the hardness was less than 20 ppm.. I've hatched them in diluted tap water (down to 60 ppm). 

As the eggs develop they take up water from the surrounding medium. If you are losing eggs at the stages you describe they are either infertile or are developing abnormally (possibly through a failure of the pronephros to develop properly). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

andry said:


> I am having the same thing happen to my leuc eggs. They also lay only 3 eggs at a time. They also just started laying this year. I only have one tad that is about to sprout legs and this tad was an egg laid all by itself.
> 
> I was wondering if the others were because one egg starts going bad and them ruins the others. I keep going to throw the eggs out and just as I am I see some movement in the embryo. But I know it can't be a good one because they look so gross. Like they are gooy or something. I can't explain. I do have a couple of pictures though. Maybe yours look like mine.
> 
> ...


It is unlikely that they are going bad simply because one doesn't develop or dies during development. The rest of the eggs simply develop while the one disintegrates. 
It is probably not the water, it is more likely the frogs or the nutrition of the frogs.


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