# Most "lucrative" breeding business?



## WTFJayJay

Hey guys im new here and new to these frogs but not to reptiles or breeding. Was't sure where to post this so mods feel free to move it.


I used to breed ball pythons but had to let my collection go due to finantual issues. I loved the experiance and from selling it was nice haveing some extra cash to support the hobby. Now that im back up to par with my bills im ready to jump back in. I thought about doing snakes again but the nicer morphs i used to have are a good bit more expencive to get a good collection going vs fogs or better yet geckoes. Not to mention they are both mature or are just at "breeding size" at a much younger age compaired to ball pythons, as well as there inclosers take up less room and feeding is much cheaper especially with the darts it seems to be anyway.


So my questoin is what would be a more lucrative breeding business; dart frogs or leopard/crested geckos. Im still verry new to the frogs and still have a tonnnnnnn to learn but would start off verry slow with an addult pair of tincs. The pluss side of them vs the geckos is that the geckos are much more popular at reptile show than dart frogs. The ones i go to anyway. But thats because they are much more common and seem to be over all easier to care for expecially for the beginner. But in saying that you all know how manny impulse buyers there are at those shows.. ive been one of them... Id feel much better about letting someone who was new to reptiles take one of my geckos vs a dart frog just simply because of the beginner care of them. Don't want you guys to think im wanting to do this just for the money! Just as i made sure all my snakes when to a good home I would want to do the same with any animal I prouced.


Would love to head your opinion and or personal experiances!

Thanks


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## Spectre66

I don't know anything about geckos... but I can give you this: If you are looking for lucrative, pick a business where you don't have to compete with folks who do it as a hobby.


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## WTFJayJay

Well that kinda defeats the purpose of this whole thread... not saying your not right, but if that was the case wouldnt every average joe have some sort of private business?.. It all boils down to money. You cant start up anything with out big bux. But thanks for the input.


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## Spectre66

Its just tough to make money where so many do it as a hobby... That's not to mention the fact that the pet trade as a whole is hit hard by swings in the economy... 

Those who are successful with dart frogs as a buisiness have spent years building connections with zoos & other institutions. I think you'll also find that most of them make quite a bit of their income from sales of supplies.


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## WTFJayJay

Verry true! Ive actually notice that looking at all the differnt sites for the frogs I want to buy. Everyone does seem to have anything and everything for sale to care for the animals. Not that its bad its great, but compaired to other animals like snakes for example alot of breeders dont even offer heat pads/flexwat or even feeders..

but still reguarless of money im itching to get back into the hobby and stop blowing all my extra cash on my reef tank .

i guess i asked the question possibly more base on money income more than i really care about but everyone like money.. so it was just in the back of my mind and could really help me choose what to do.

i also have a verry good friend who breeds chamillians and ive seen him struggle to really make much even being one of the only chamillion venders at most shows so im not assuming its easy at all.


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## Spectre66

you got it... You can make money... but I wouldn't call it lucrative.

Anyway, I'm sure folks who are more in the know than I will chime in here soon...


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## Ed

Depending on the feeding schedule it can take a ball python up to two years to become sexually mature (although some wait until the third year).. It can take some dart frogs two years to become sexually mature as well... 

Ed


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## alex111683

WTFJayJay said:


> So my questoin is what would be a more lucrative breeding business; dart frogs or leopard/crested geckos.


How could you say this and then write the following



WTFJayJay said:


> Don't want you guys to think im wanting to do this just for the money!


If your asking what's more lucrative, then to me it seems like your in it for the money.


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## JJuchems

It is a long process, but to make it simple. I have always made more from geckos than frogs. Geckos support my animal room, and that is why I am reducing number of animals I keep, including geckos. A quick look at single animal sales, I sold a crested gecko in 2006 for $700. The most expensive frog I have sold has been $150. 

Geckos
1. Geckos you feed for a few months to get started then sell. 
2. Easy to distribute to local/regional resellers pet shops
3. Easy to get first time hobbyist sales

Dart Frogs
1. Feed tadpoles for 50+day, then froglets for a few months
2. Do not make a good pet shop/retail animal
3. Due to feeding and habitat, not the best beginner amphibians

Keep in mind, this is just looking at the breeding business. Dart frogs hobby is different than other herp hobbies when you look at responsible breeding and selling. Not mixing locales or species, hybrids, ect. Most hobbyist are not ready for the feeding aspect alone. Trying to do this purely for profit takes years, and really is it worth it?


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## WTFJayJay

alex111683 said:


> How could you say this and then write the following
> 
> 
> 
> If your asking what's more lucrative, then to me it seems like your in it for the money.



when i say im not in it for the money im saying im not looking to make big bux. should have worded it anouther way. when i did sell my snakes i always let them go for verry good price compaired to what they would usually go for because i could moove them verry fast, make more room, and of course to get some money back for the hobby.


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## WTFJayJay

JJuchems said:


> It is a long process, but to make it simple. I have always made more from geckos than frogs. Geckos support my animal room, and that is why I am reducing number of animals I keep, including geckos. A quick look at single animal sales, I sold a crested gecko in 2006 for $700. The most expensive frog I have sold has been $150.
> 
> Geckos
> 1. Geckos you feed for a few months to get started then sell.
> 2. Easy to distribute to local/regional resellers pet shops
> 3. Easy to get first time hobbyist sales
> 
> Dart Frogs
> 1. Feed tadpoles for 50+day, then froglets for a few months
> 2. Do not make a good pet shop/retail animal
> 3. Due to feeding and habitat, not the best beginner amphibians
> 
> Keep in mind, this is just looking at the breeding business. Dart frogs hobby is different than other herp hobbies when you look at responsible breeding and selling. Not mixing locales or species, hybrids, ect. Most hobbyist are not ready for the feeding aspect alone. Trying to do this purely for profit takes years, and really is it worth it?




now this is what im looking for! first hand experiance! and a verry good point about not crossing the frogs. the geckos are the same species you just crossing differnt morphs to get that true gym. so technically every male and female you had could be bread with eachother to come up with endless collor morphs.

but the the frogs you have pairs or trios of each collor or species


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## JJuchems

WTFJayJay said:


> now this is what im looking for! first hand experiance!


I'm just a hobbyist but I cornered a lot of my local market in geckos. I have now given it to a good friend. Depending where you live, yours market may already be cornered. Many of the bigger guys have exclusivity deals. Our local rodent guy has that with the shops, they buy from him and no one else. These set-ups allow for quick sells at low profit, but allow a outlet for "lower color quality" morphs.


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## skylsdale

WTFJayJay said:


> and a verry good point about not crossing the frogs. the geckos are the same species you just crossing differnt morphs to get that true gym. so technically every male and female you had could be bread with eachother to come up with endless collor morphs.


This is a bit different in the Dendrobatid hobby, and generally strongly frowned upon.

There are numerous frogs in teh hobby that are the same species...but within that species are numerous locales/morphs (i.e. seperate isolated breeding population) in the wild. For instance, _Oophaga pumilio_ is found on many Panamanian islands, and each island has its own phenotype. Same species, but mixing these morphs/phenotypes is not something condoned by very many hobbyists...and those who do generally don't condone it recklessly or for profit (i.e. creating trademark and/or designer morphs to sell and make a name and/or money). If you were to, and become known for it, you would probably find your potential market shrink at a pretty surprising rate.

The attitude of Dendrobatid hobbyists is quite a bit different than the herp crowd at-large because it is a smaller niche hobby...sort of like killifish hobbyists are a niche within the larger aquarium community. If this is somethign you would really want to give a go, aside from all the practical points JJuchems expressed above, I would get to know the culture and some of its idiosynchrocies--it's not just about money and "cool frogs" for many of those involved.


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## WTFJayJay

yup its just as my buddy has tought me with his chamillions, its the same way. even though they are the same speices and from the same general area they may be simply devided by water or mountain. inturn overtime they have all evolved differntly. and as you mentioned same goes for manny differnt fish.


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## fleshfrombone

Your questions, self proclaimed background, and earlier threads have me worried. My problem with this hobby getting too big and commercial is the encroachment of the typical cross breed/make profit herper. As a community we've done an amazing job policing ourselves in that regard but I'm starting to notice a trend of eager new hobbyists without the same strict adherence to our "code," for lack of a better term. Is this hobby going to devolve the same way the others have?


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## Pumilo

WTFJayJay said:


> So my questoin is what would be a more lucrative breeding business; dart frogs or leopard/crested geckos. Don't want you guys to think im wanting to do this just for the money!





WTFJayJay said:


> Well that kinda defeats the purpose of this whole thread... not saying your not right, but if that was the case wouldnt every average joe have some sort of private business?.. It all boils down to money. You cant start up anything with out big bux. But thanks for the input.





WTFJayJay said:


> i guess i asked the question possibly more base on money income more than i really care about but everyone like money.. so it was just in the back of my mind and could really help me choose what to do.





WTFJayJay said:


> when i say im not in it for the money im saying im not looking to make big bux. should have worded it anouther way. when i did sell my snakes i always let them go for verry good price compaired to what they would usually go for *because i could moove them verry fast*, make more room, and of course to get some money back for the hobby.


How is this not just about the money? Every one of us who has ever sold a frog started out as a hobbyist with a love for frogs. To any of us, breeding is a labor of love.
Here we have a self proclaimed cross breeder who has not said word one about any love, or fascination for frogs. Seems like every other post is simply about money. The one that should really concern us is this one. *"because i could moove them verry fast"*. Doesn't this reek of mass production? Making a "Frog Mill" modeled after a "Puppy Mill"? What about the comments that he is only leaning towards frogs because they are cheaper to feed and you can get away with smaller enclosures?
I'm sorry, but this thread really bothers me. Anybody else see red? I think I need to walk away from this before I say something I'll regret (again!).


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## alex111683

Pumilo said:


> How is this not just about the money? Every one of us who has ever sold a frog started out as a hobbyist with a love for frogs. To any of us, breeding is a labor of love.
> Here we have a self proclaimed cross breeder who has not said word one about any love, or fascination for frogs. Seems like every other post is simply about money. The one that should really concern us is this one. *"because i could moove them verry fast"*. Doesn't this reek of mass production? Making a "Frog Mill" modeled after a "Puppy Mill"? What about the comments that he is only leaning towards frogs because they are cheaper to feed and you can get away with smaller enclosures?
> I'm sorry, but this thread really bothers me. Anybody else see red? I think I need to walk away from this before I say something I'll regret (again!).


I was feeling the same way last night after reading the original post and didn't want to say anything too harsh. I am glad I am not the only one that feels like this after reading this thread and the OP responses.


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## Boondoggle

Here's the deal, and I'm speaking as a former boa/colubrid "morph" guy. There traditionally are only a couple ways to make breeding "lucrative". One is by finding something new that breeds large volumes quickly (i.e. the African House snake boom). There isn't really a frog equivelant for this at the time.

The other more common way is by getting in early on the next big morph (Giant Super Pied Satin Bumblebee Ball Pythons, etc.). Buyers are willing to spend inflated prices for the next big thing because they are willing to take the chance that they can still catch the price swell before the market corrects and price drops. Once the price drops then you are competing with hobbyists who aren't necessarily looking to make a profit. The "morph" market doesn't exist with frogs (hopefully never will) as line bred, and genetically mutated animals are actually considered worth much less.

This is not to say that you can't make some money, I just wouldn't call it "lucrative" by any means. Most hobbyists are happy to break even over the years, and any business that makes money is doing so by dealing with animals in bulk.

If you wanted to make money in frogs, find a related business niche (for instance it's much easier to get rich breeding feeder rats than it is pythons). Niches that I see related to frogs that I think are not really being exploited fully are tanks, fly's and alternate feeders, affordable shipping supplies...premixed clay might be good...think along those lines.


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## JJuchems

My experience has been those who are not willing to complete the research, use the correct spelling or form of the word, and want to make a quick buck end up not producing frogs. They buy all the stuff, try and try but in the end get impatient and leave. Of all the animals I have worked with, amphibians are the most time consuming and hardest (mentally).

Step to success can be found by:
Read, Read, Read, cast out other herp information, immerse yourself in the dart frogs hobby and practices and then try to reproduce. Amphibian hobby does not compare to many of the other herp breeding hobbies. I believe this is why so few quality amphibian are available it herp swaps.


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## mantisdragon91

You know usually I try to keep an open mind and defend new posters but even I have to go onrecord and saying this thread reeks of cluelessness to the point of me wondering if it is a set up. What is a chamillion? And how do you plan on making money breeding something you obviously know nothing about? 

Crawl before you walk before you run. Instead of jumping into breeding, how about keeping a few darts for a number of months to see if you can even keep them alive and enjoy the time and effort involved?


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## Mitch

If you openly admit you're only in it for the money, no hobbyist is going to want to buy from you. Only being in it for the money means that you do everything as cheaply as possible, and this will show with the quality of animals produced.


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## alex111683

Mitch said:


> If you openly admit you're only in it for the money, no hobbyist is going to want to buy from you. Only being in it for the money means that you do everything as cheaply as possible, and this will show with the quality of animals produced.


I have already written down the screen name for future reference when I'm looking for new frogs.


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## Okapi

I would suggest looking into a reptile species if you plan to make money. Darts are for the most part a money sink, like reef tanks. In fact, Ive found that there is alot of cross over between the salt water and dart frog hobbies. People start out with darts (or a reef), to set up a thriving piece of nature for themselves to enjoy, then try their hand at the other for the same reason. If you want to get into darts, go in slowly. 

Approach it like you likely approached the reef hobby. Research a lot. Expect to spend more than you receive back. Personally enjoy whatever tanks you set up. With a reef tank, you spend a lot of money on even a bare bones set up. The aquarium itself costs money to maintain. Any money made off the aquarium would be coral frags grown and sold over time. Often times, frags are traded rather than sold. This hobby is just like that. If the environment is right, the frogs will reproduce over time. Some people sell their froglets, some trade them. The same goes for plants. A lot of people sell plant cuttings of species that are vivarium suitable more often than froglets. 

I would suggest that if you want to make money, go with reptiles. Leopard geckos or crested geckos are easy to keep, more forgiving, and a lot easier to market. Then, find what ever frog species YOU would like to keep and set up a vivarium for them. Keep a pair and if they breed for you, see if you can break even on your investment. Dont go for the flavor of the month morph or let prices dictate your choice. This is a personal decision, go with a dart that you personally enjoy watching. Keep them for a while and reevaluate your thoughts on them. Either you will become addicted like the rest of us and end up spending more money on plants and frogs than you can make back, or you will decide that the hobby is not for you, sell the pair of frogs and have learned something.


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## Rain_Frog

There are also many hobbyists out there that even prefer to give away free frogs to friends or just because they love frogs, and / or donate money from frog sales to conservation instead of pocketing all of it.

If you want to make money, sell supplies.


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## frogface

Rain_Frog said:


> There are also many hobbyists out there that even prefer to give away free frogs to friends or just because they love frogs, and / or donate money from frog sales to conservation instead of pocketing all of it.
> 
> If you want to make money, sell supplies.


That's true. I'll probably give away more than I sell, assuming I get froglets some day. On that note, having frogs does not mean having froglets. I'm still playing Barry White for mine.


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## alex111683

frogface said:


> That's true. I'll probably give away more than I sell, assuming I get froglets some day. On that note, having frogs does not mean having froglets. I'm still playing Barry White for mine.


Maybe they're more the Marvin Gaye type.


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## fleshfrombone

If Doug, Roman, and Jason say take a step back, breathe, and do your research then there's something seriously wrong going on. Like Alex I'm making a note of the screen name and mannerisms.... The best most of us hope for is to make the hobby free or at least as cheap as possible by selling/trading offspring. Take Ray for example, he has an impressive collection, but he doesn't do it for the money. He does it because he likes frogs and if he can have the frogs pay for themselves great. Again your approach is disturbing.


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## packer43064

I made a thread like this awhile ago. The only difference was that it pertained to insect feeders and I liked insects to begin with and not in it for the money. I don't know if you are or not...obviously to some point any seller who has a business is in it for money. 

I've spent alot of money on racks, heating elements, culturing supplies, new stock, shipping supplies, making a website, and alot more. I'm also going to become a sponsor, not because I will have ads on here and advertise, but because this site made my business. They had all the answers I ever needed. I researched ALOT and still researching new insects, but sometimes questions needs to be asked. I'm not going to give out how much it all cost so far, but it wasn't cheap. I couldn't even imagine trying to start a business selling dart frogs. The frogs and tanks alone would oust how much I spent easily.

It can be done, but learn the basics and then ALOT more and then you can try to breed some easier frogs and go forward from there. Look at my thread "Breeding FF's for Profit". It can be found in the food and feeding part of this site. I've came a long way since this thread.

Jeff


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## Jellyman

I'm not sure why this turned so negative. As long as you are asking the questions befor you venture I see no harm with you trying to get answers.

As far as some stating that frogs and reefs are money pits I am really confused. Both have obvious start up costs that can get expensive but darts are by far one of the cheapest to setup. The biggest expense is the physical tank followed by the frogs. Everything in between is relatively cheap(plants, substarte, lighting). Once the tank has been up and running it takes almost no time or money to maintain. The only cost I have now is when I need to buy more fruit fly culture mix or if a bulb needs replacing. 

I do not know of anyone making decent money selling just frogs. Like stated it takes alot of time to raise a tad to a froglet of proper sellable size. It is almost hand in hand that in order to make money you would need to sell any and everything associated with the frog setup and nutritional needs.

Most of the common frogs such as auratus, tincs, and luecs are very easy to breed. Once you get your tanks properly setup and match up pairs they are not much more difficult than rabbits. Again, they do not produce in great numbers and are very time consuming due to the grow out process. Unlike clownfish that spawn every 2-3 weeks, laying 200+ eggs, and having offspring ready for sale in 3 months. 

I'd say you are at the take it slow, don't jump it too fast and keep asking questions until you feel you have enough information to get "started."


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## Catfur

Jellyman said:


> I'm not sure why this turned so negative.


Because it's the Internet. 

You can make money selling frogs, it's hard work, will probably take a long time, and I don't know anyone making money at it who didn't start as a hobbyist. The real money is in plants, feeders and supplies.

This message brought to you by Haterade (TM), the official drink of the internet.


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## Rain_Frog

I agree with Brian (jellyman). It's better to ask questions now BEFORE you do something you may regret later. But true, please keep frogs before considering to sell them. 

And decorations only cost a lot of money if you want to be fancy. I no longer spend money on standard glass aquariums and just use rubbermaid bins which are cheap. I mix coco peat, sphagnum, and coco chips for a substrate then put oak leaves on top. Throw some plant clippings from another vivarium and that's it. I used to waste a lot of money on compact fluorescent fixtures / bulbs and I now I just use the screw in type from Home Depot or shop lights.


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## daryl34

In regards to amphibians, the one believe it or not you can make the best money at it axotols(sp?) . My reasoniing is this my darts do well, but the axotols are used in every lab for regenerations. If you do your research they but all you can produce, with standing orders. Check it out you may be surprised.
Daryl

There are animals you can make some money at. Just pick one that is used in a research and you always have some one who can use them. Hobby and business are too completely different things. Please seperate the two and it will work.


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## fleshfrombone

Catfur said:


> Because it's the Internet.
> 
> You can make money selling frogs, it's hard work, will probably take a long time, and I don't know anyone making money at it who didn't start as a hobbyist. The real money is in plants, feeders and supplies.
> 
> This message brought to you by Haterade (TM), the official drink of the internet.


Or maybe it's because he sounds like an 8 year old getting in way over his head.


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## dendroderek

I think that some people just have a seriously messed up since of humor. I felt this was a setup from post one. Notice how he hasn't comented back, felt to me like someone got there feelings hurt on another post and under another name. Say some crazy stuff to a passionate group of people, and sparks are bound to fly, and I guess thats "entertainment." This is not the first time I have seen something like this on these boards (just the first I chose to coment on) and it sure wont be the last we see. Sorry if its not my place to say something but I coulndn't help my self... Just so you know where I am coming from, I have spent over a year just reading every thread I can and posting very seldom unless I feel like i have something to offer, basicaly every "general" question has been answered you just have to look for them. Not to say that there aren't personal twist on these questions that need to be asked and should be. I still do not own one frog, not because of space or money constraints I just want to get it right for these little guys because they are so awesome. I have alot of general knowledge concerning reptiles and amphibians (helped manage a reptile shop for two years) and I still don't feel comfortable yet. Maybe over cautious but I have been in over my head having to easy of access to these types of animals. lesson learned, just my piece. 

Derek


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## WTFJayJay

fleshfrombone said:


> Your questions, self proclaimed background, and earlier threads have me worried. My problem with this hobby getting too big and commercial is the encroachment of the typical cross breed/make profit herper. As a community we've done an amazing job policing ourselves in that regard but I'm starting to notice a trend of eager new hobbyists without the same strict adherence to our "code," for lack of a better term. Is this hobby going to devolve the same way the others have?




first offff holllllyyy crap.... gone for a day and this thing is pages long..

not sure what you mean by "self proclaimed background".. but reguardless of that i know exactly what you mean. i breed cichlids just for fun and take them to my shop for store credit just for food and extra supplys for my reef and such. there are soooo manny cross bred africans i cant stand it and honestly stores dont even care, they take and sell any of them because the general public does not know what it truly is or care. its just pretty to them.. 

so before i read threw all this and have other people possibly mention as you have suggesting i may cross them to produce some differnt morph that is not the case.


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## WTFJayJay

mantisdragon91 said:


> You know usually I try to keep an open mind and defend new posters but even I have to go onrecord and saying this thread reeks of cluelessness to the point of me wondering if it is a set up. What is a chamillion? And how do you plan on making money breeding something you obviously know nothing about?
> 
> Crawl before you walk before you run. Instead of jumping into breeding, how about keeping a few darts for a number of months to see if you can even keep them alive and enjoy the time and effort involved?



bahah wow.. i got kinda pissed when i first saw this.. CHAMELEON!! ha there im a 22 year old dyslexic fool.. no joke you should see some of my college papers..

but no, one of my best friends owns Chameleon Kingdom.


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## WTFJayJay

Boondoggle said:


> Here's the deal, and I'm speaking as a former boa/colubrid "morph" guy. There traditionally are only a couple ways to make breeding "lucrative". One is by finding something new that breeds large volumes quickly (i.e. the African House snake boom). There isn't really a frog equivelant for this at the time.
> 
> The other more common way is by getting in early on the next big morph (Giant Super Pied Satin Bumblebee Ball Pythons, etc.). Buyers are willing to spend inflated prices for the next big thing because they are willing to take the chance that they can still catch the price swell before the market corrects and price drops. Once the price drops then you are competing with hobbyists who aren't necessarily looking to make a profit. The "morph" market doesn't exist with frogs (hopefully never will) as line bred, and genetically mutated animals are actually considered worth much less.
> 
> This is not to say that you can't make some money, I just wouldn't call it "lucrative" by any means. Most hobbyists are happy to break even over the years, and any business that makes money is doing so by dealing with animals in bulk.
> 
> If you wanted to make money in frogs, find a related business niche (for instance it's much easier to get rich breeding feeder rats than it is pythons). Niches that I see related to frogs that I think are not really being exploited fully are tanks, fly's and alternate feeders, affordable shipping supplies...premixed clay might be good...think along those lines.



wow some of you guys are taking this a little to personally it seems... dont get me wrong i understand these frogs are almost like a passion to some of you and i understand completely so i wont take much of what has been said to heart.

but this guy knows where im coming from^^. snakes have been my only comparable personal experience when it come to really getting into breeding an animal.

and ill say it again i know there are no morphs when it comes to these guys. there’s no market for them anyway because just as you all say your all trying to keep it pure!


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## Ed

WTFJayJay said:


> wow some of you guys are taking this a little to personally it seems... dont get me wrong i understand these frogs are almost like a passion to some of you and i understand completely so i wont take much of what has been said to heart.
> 
> but this guy knows where im coming from^^. snakes have been my only comparable personal experience when it come to really getting into breeding an animal.
> 
> and ill say it again i know there are no morphs when it comes to these guys. there’s no market for them anyway because just as you all say your all trying to keep it pure!


There is a third way.. that is to hold onto a prolific species until a couple of years after the market collapses and then breed them.. look at the last 20 of how it has worked for horned frogs... 

Ed


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## WTFJayJay

just read everything.. and i dont even know what to say.... i thought people on my car forums were harsh...

anyway thanks to those that have given advice and actual constructive criticism vs just bashing. everyone has to ask questoins to lean in these hobbys. isnt that what these forums are for?

And id really like to say this; all the "business talk" is just a serious thought so i hate it was taken so out of context.. I am putting together my first viv right now and ordering an adult pair of tincs once its set up for a bit. I really don’t know why so many people are treating this hole thins so negatively.. I picture you guys seeing me having my first frogs for sale before they are even out of eggs or something… 
i have love and passion for animals in general. I’ve got 2 rescue dogs, 4 cats, and 3 fish tanks. I also actually work at a local aquarium business and volunteer at the GA Aquarium. So i hope you guys will come to find im not the horrible person alot of you have been acting like i am.


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## fleshfrombone

WTFJayJay said:


> first offff holllllyyy crap.... gone for a day and this thing is pages long..
> 
> not sure what you mean by "self proclaimed background".. but reguardless of that i know exactly what you mean. i breed cichlids just for fun and take them to my shop for store credit just for food and extra supplys for my reef and such. there are soooo manny cross bred africans i cant stand it and honestly stores dont even care, they take and sell any of them because the general public does not know what it truly is or care. its just pretty to them..
> 
> so before i read threw all this and have other people possibly mention as you have suggesting i may cross them to produce some differnt morph that is not the case.


No need to take it personally or go on the defensive. The point I was making is this is a niche hobby and as such we keep out and refuse to do business with people who take the standard herp breeder mentality of making a name (and cash for that matter) for themselves by creating the newest and greatest locale cross thus bastardizing what nature has already done a great job providing. This particular hobby is extremely reputation based and it is important to us to maintain the rigid standards we uphold when it comes to said crossing. I'd hate to see this hobby which I've been a part of for several years become another mainstream gene mash up. It's also disconcerting when someone no one has had dealings with comes on here and asks what the most lucrative breeding business is when the vast majority aren't here to peddle animals. Almost everything I've bred has gone to other hobbyists free of charge. To sum it up approaching this hobby with the intent of making money isn't appropriate. You say one thing then contradict it in the next sentence.


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## WTFJayJay

thanks for your response. as far as me contradicting myself I see what you mean. I was just simply trying to defend myself from all the bashing. Not really you but some people are kinda ridiculous.. like I said in my last post this initial thread was all a thought and I am getting the frogs for the hobby of it. If they breed they breed if not so be it. Not going to lie though the hole proposal did initially come up when I first started reading on how to care for them and every other site I saw had each frog listed how easily it would breed. So it got me excited on the hobby aspect of it because I would love to be able to experience the hole process. Then the gears started turning, well what to do I with all the babies? Why not sell them just as I did with my snakes? As a few other people have mentioned when I said “move them fast” it should have been simply “move them with out just giving them away”.. I had plenty of adult female balls that were of great use to me but only didn’t have the room for all of them at the time. So I sold them for any where from $20-$40 depending on what people offered me. Females of that age and breeding size and color/pattern can go more $200+ left and right.. And every bit of the money I got from them went to buying feeding or other herp supplies. Its just the same as my reef. I have THOUSANDS invested and sell little frags from time to time to make room and get some extra cash for salt and other dosing supplies. So in the long run the darts would turn out exactly the same way really…


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## Pumilo

If you back up and look through your posts, without being so defensive, you will clearly see that you did not present yourself that way originally. We all love and protect our hobby and we have raised some perfectly valid concerns. You calling the lot of us ridiculous is not going to help change our opinion of how YOU chose to portray yourself. Its just not conducive to getting much help from us.


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## WTFJayJay

Pumilo said:


> If you back up and look through your posts, without being so defensive, you will clearly see that you did not present yourself that way originally. We all love and protect our hobby and we have raised some perfectly valid concerns. You calling the lot of us ridiculous is not going to help change our opinion of how YOU chose to portray yourself. Its just not conducive to getting much help from us.



The way I see it is I was not “portraying” myself in a negative way at all.. I just don’t see why asking a few questions out of curiosity automatically lead to multiple people assuming that I was planning on cross breeding and all that.. I understand how frond upon it is and actually knew that before it was brought up multiple times, but I never once mentioned it.. Yes I could have originally worded the title of the thread as well as the questions a little differently, but that’s how it came out and I didn’t see anything wrong with asking what I did..

Anyyyywayyyy…. Ive been on many of forums in a few different hobbies and never had one start out like this.. so I hope it improves as I venture in and I hope to have all of you give me more advice in the future.


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## Boondoggle

WTFJayJay said:


> Anyyyywayyyy…. Ive been on many of forums in a few different hobbies and never had one start out like this.. so I hope it improves as I venture in and I hope to have all of you give me more advice in the future.


No worries, just keep asking questions. It's actually a helpful group. Just don't use the word "lucrative" around us.


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## poison beauties

WTFJayJay said:


> Well that kinda defeats the purpose of this whole thread... not saying your not right, but if that was the case wouldnt every average joe have some sort of private business?.. It all boils down to money. You cant start up anything with out big bux. But thanks for the input.


More and more approach this hobby with ideas of making money but you need to know this hobby and almost every other now is just a collaboration of small business's. You very unlikely to make alot of or even a little money not having the contacts and knowledge from being in this hobby for a while. Everything costs and trying to go the cheap route in this hobby can effect the care your frogs receive. You have a better chance f profiting with a single nice group of frogs in a big viv than you do with ten pair. 

Id think about reading up on all the past threads on every subject. If your going to take this on atleast breed the frogs yourself. We already have enough flippers in this hobby with $ in their eyes.

Michael


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## boabab95

poison beauties said:


> More and more approach this hobby with ideas of making money but you need to know this hobby and almost every other now is just a collaboration of small business's. You very unlikely to make alot of or even a little money not having the contacts and knowledge from being in this hobby for a while. Everything costs and trying to go the cheap route in this hobby can effect the care your frogs receive. You have a better chance f profiting with a single nice group of frogs in a big viv than you do with ten pair.
> 
> Id think about reading up on all the past threads on every subject. If your going to take this on atleast breed the frogs yourself. We already have enough flippers in this hobby with $ in their eyes.
> 
> Michael


that's a very good point. I'd rather have a couple nice big vivs, then 300 frogs in 10 gallons with no false bottom, microfauna or barely any cover..

there's also been tons of instances where flippers end up selling diseased frogs claiming they were "medicated" and ends up ruining a whole collection.

just my 0.02


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## DJboston

Seriously, threads like this remind me why I try and keep to myself except for other collectors I know are lifers and my local frog group....

If you've never kept a dart frog, why on earth do you think that someone would BUY frogs from you? Especially since you just admitted it would be for profit. 

I've bred ball pythons myself. I admit there are investment animals and morphs. Ball pythons are so simple that there to keep it new and fresh, new morphs pop-up and obviously people want to make money and bring these morphs to the public. They also don't lay many eggs so the investment usually stays pretty high from generation to generation and only drops pricing slowly. It's a good business I'm sure. I bought a het pair of albino Ball pythons for 3k back when I was a teenager and made decent profit to fund my collection. Now, my local pet shop has an albino for $500. Took a while but even still, it's still up there in price because of slow breeding. 

You cannot compare dart frogs to the reptile hobby. It's basically a totally different hobby. I'm into dart frogs for the LOVE of nature and respect and fascination with these jewels of the rainforest. As a child I loved all reptiles and amphibians but there was always something about rainforest frogs, especially Dart frogs, that had a legendary mystique to them. 

Also, dart frogs care is pretty advanced. Even though it's easy once you actually "get it," it takes a while to get to that point. 

Anyone getting into dart frogs for money just doesn't "get it," and probably never will. If you don't love these animals and think of money second, you'll never truly have success. Plus, if people know you're in for profit, the tight connections we make with other froggers will just never happen. No one will take you seriously. 

The best connections I have right now are local froggers and certain friends on here that love dart frogs as much as I do and these are the people I buy frogs from and want to learn from. The people that are in it for profit, got to that point because they started off just keeping and breeding dart frogs. They were so fascinated by them that they wanted to make it a business.

If you can make money at doing what you love to do, than by all means do it. Unfortunately you're coming on here as a newbie asking these questions instead of lurking for a while and learning all you can about dart frogs. 

This post should be in the beginners forum quite frankly. 

This is why some of the old time dart frog enthusiasts really don't have the patience to come to this forum.


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## JJuchems

WTFJayJay said:


> The way I see it is I was not “portraying” myself in a negative way at all.. I just don’t see why asking a few questions out of curiosity automatically lead to multiple people assuming that I was planning on cross breeding and all that.. I understand how frond upon it is and actually knew that before it was brought up multiple times, but I never once mentioned it.. Yes I could have originally worded the title of the thread as well as the questions a little differently, but that’s how it came out and I didn’t see anything wrong with asking what I did..
> 
> Anyyyywayyyy…. Ive been on many of forums in a few different hobbies and never had one start out like this.. so I hope it improves as I venture in and I hope to have all of you give me more advice in the future.


People are more put off that you start posting on wanting to know how to make money on frogs instead of questioning the care and husbandry practices. Like I said and other, the dart frogs hobby does not compare to the rest of herpetoculture. Step back a bit and understand what goes in to keep frogs. You may find it is more time consuming than you thought. I have seen people that are good gecko breeders get burned out on Dart Frogs and Mantellas.


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## DJboston

I personally got bored and burnt out on keeping snakes and other herps years ago. Keeping a snake in a simple tank or rack with heat and a hide is boring to me lol The fascination with holding snakes and showing them off just wore off over the past 15 years. I won't own another herp again. Nothing against them of course, I just can't see myself doing it again unless it's an active animal that appreciates live plants, like a Panther Chameleon or something like that. Chameleons are the one lizard that I think are just amazing animals....but I'm a nature nut and I love all reptiles and amphibians. I just prefer to see them on animal planet in the wild or something like that lol. Also, cleaning and disinfecting cages was something that got old over the years.

In a sense, dart frogs are less work. I get to do the fun stuff only like setting up planted vivariums, feeding, checking for eggs, small tank tweaks here and there, but basically I mist and feed on a daily basis and that's easy and fun to me (as do all of us that keep darts). Watching a tank mature is a beautiful thing!! 

Just put a ton of work into my metal rack this weekend. The top two rows are finished but the bottom row of 20gal highs getting vert conversions will be done this week. 

Yet, dart frogs require you to be for them daily or at least every other day and that can be a lot for people if they own too many frogs and get burnt out.

I think the one thing that burns out dart frog enthusiasts is feeding. By that, I mean fruit fly culturing. I don't mind it myself, but I know large collections requiring 20+ cultures made a week can become a burden. Especially if you have problems with cultures crashing. 

Other than that, frog keeping is in my opinion some of the most advanced husbandry in the entire world of herpetology/herpetoculture. 

I love dart frogs basically. They freakin rule! They're active, gorgeous, and amazing little jewels. A little piece of the rainforest in my own house. I'll always own them and being involved in the hobby is just a really healthy blessing in my already awesome life. I think if it was the only thing I did, I would be a little sad...but it compliments the great things in my life. My fiance also appreciates it so that makes it all the more fun.

Frogs produce offspring due to good husbandry. They do their thing and if I can make money off that to fund my collection even more, than I've achieved my goal. The day I see them as just a way to bring in money, I wouldn't be motivated to put in the work they require. 

I get more back than I give, that's for sure!!


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## fleshfrombone

Alright alright lay off already. He explained himself and decided to approach the hobby from a more humble perspective. What more do you want from the guy? It's more than I would give. We're turning into a pack of jackals.


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## dartboard

WTF,

obviously you have asked a bunch of people that are not in it for the money.... how to make it lucrative. And just as obviously you received the responses that you have.

I am sure there are ways to make money with it, I am sure there are ways to make it very very lucrative. I am also just as sure that you are asking the wrong people for advice on how to do this.

In any business... the ones not making money will tell you you shouldnt try.... the ones making money dont want competition and will tell you that you cant.


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## Okapi

Actually a few people who do sell frogs have commented. Plus it was pointed out that most frog breeding "businesses" make the majority of their money off of supplies, not frogs. There isnt really a market to corner, because the majority of this hobby is made up of similarly minded people who keep the frogs as pets and sell or trade with each other.

Most people here (myself included) will not buy from someone who is suspected to be in it solely for the money or a flipper. Ive questioned everyone that I considered buying from about their animals and sifted through their websites looking for any inconsistencies or questionable ethics. Ive got a mental note of who to buy from and who to avoid, and I doubt im the only one who does this. If this hobby doesnt police itself, it wont last.


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