# vitamin A tablets



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I'm a little surprised at the difficult time I'm having finding vitamin A tablets. Everything I'm finding is a softgel cap. Can somebody point me in the right direction?

Thanks.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

solaray - emulsified dry vitamin a, 25000 iu- 60 count
Here is the one Ed has been recommending. I found it at a local Vitamin Cottage. You will have to regrind it into smaller particles for it to stick well. I use a mortor and pestle but before that I used a spoon and a nylon cutting board.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

That product is a combination of beta carotene and rentinyl palmitate. I thought Ed recommended against the beta carotene form of vitamin A.

I think maybe this one - http://www.smartbomb.com/p/Source-Naturals--Vitamin-A-Palmitate-10000-IU-100-tab/110823.html


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Gary, i been using the Solary for about 2 years now with great results


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

heres a list of retinol suppliers. dosage in the small quantities needed will likely require the use of a highly accurate scale (milligram would probably be appropriate)

CAS No.68-26-8,Vitamin A Suppliers

james


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

google Source Naturals Vitamin A


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> solaray - emulsified dry vitamin a, 25000 iu- 60 count
> Here is the one Ed has been recommending. I found it at a local Vitamin Cottage. You will have to regrind it into smaller particles for it to stick well. I use a mortor and pestle but before that I used a spoon and a nylon cutting board.


Went back and searched some posts on vitamin A. It was Ed's recommendation not to use a vitamin A source that was 100% beta carotene. So that combination product looks to be a good one to get.

THANKS.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

gary1218 said:


> Went back and searched some posts on vitamin A. It was Ed's recommendation not to use a vitamin A source that was 100% beta carotene. So that combination product looks to be a good one to get.
> 
> THANKS.


 
I was just getting ready to address this when you beat me to it. 


Ed


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ed: what would you suggest dosage wise (ratio to inert ingredients) for "pure" retinol? what would be a good inert "cutting agent"?

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

james67 said:


> ed: what would you suggest dosage wise (ratio to inert ingredients) for "pure" retinol? what would be a good inert "cutting agent"?
> 
> james


The beta carotene appears to be fine as a cutting agent. Just dusting the flies at least once a month actually works pretty well for me. I know Dr. Wright recommends once a week. 

Ed


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

sorry to get too far off topic, but im interested in purchasing large quantities of retinol powder (99%purity) and distributing it to other members since finding a good source isnt too easy. however i certainly dont want to create a supp, that will harm the frogs so dosage will be key. i like the idea of using beta carotine to "cut" the retinol with but i'd like to find out more about ratios of each. please feel free to PM me or chat on the subject.

thanks, 
james


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I have some.

My 'worry' is dosing....

Repashy has Vit A,
Dendrocare has Vit A,
Superpreen has Vit A

and I use them in rotation already....that said 'everyone' is touting the benefits of extra Vit A supplementation....

hence the feeling that Vit A cures all.

Do we all start crushing Vit A human grade tablets and supplementing more FF's???


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Gary I can send you some if you'd like. I forget the brand but it's the same stuff I sent last time.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

eLisborg said:


> Gary I can send you some if you'd like. I forget the brand but it's the same stuff I sent last time.


BUMMER, I just placed an order for some. I guess let me know when you run out and need some 

When are you home for the summer? I still need to hear about your trip to Peru.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> I have some.
> 
> My 'worry' is dosing....
> 
> ...


Hi Shawn,

There is a risk of overdosing and I have concerns if people move to a easily dusted retinol only product. If we are willing to look at the empirical anecdotal evidence we can see that at least before the modification of the Repashy supplements, just using those supplements did not resolve symptoms of hypovitaminosis. 

I ran a number of trials with both D. ebraccata and R. ventrimiculatus at work and replicated them at home with the hourglass treefrogs. 
What looked to be poor fertilization and developement of eggs and SLS did not change significantly with the addition of dusting supplements containing vitamin A as retinyl palmitate. Once I added the dry vitamin A as a dusting supplement once a month, I saw an improvement in fertility, development and decrease in SLS. Once I went to twice a month, all of those issues disappeared and even after reducing the dry vitamin A to once a month I did not see a reoccurance of those issues. In several batches at home, I stopped using dry vitamin A for several months and just continued the Repashy and Dendrocare supplements without any decrease in fertility or development. 

I want to move this over to trials with egg feeders as I think that is going to tease out a little more detail along with some more color trials. 

We can probably extrapolate a RDA range using data from reptiles and birds but the issue is quantifying the amount that is actually sticking to the flies under different conditions....


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

gary1218 said:


> BUMMER, I just placed an order for some. I guess let me know when you run out and need some
> 
> When are you home for the summer? I still need to hear about your trip to Peru.


Ahh, you need to consult me before purchasing any more supplements, second time this year!

I get of school May 23, and will be home on and off in June and most of August. Got lots of pictures to show you!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

So I ordered from that link, Solaray ....and it never showed up 


S


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sorry to hear that Shawn. Maybe the capsules were taken up in the rapture. 

Ed


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Ed, I was concerned as well about the possibilities of overdosing. Did you dust with pure vitamin A or did you cut it at all? 

I was tossing around the idea of cutting it with a few fillers such as glucose, sorbitol, fructose, whey or corn starch, but had concerns of effects to the darts diet, especially the sugar based products. I had also thought about mixing crushed vitamin A into my older supplements that are out of date. 

My main concern of creating a mixture is the proportions. Is there any benefit to providing a gradual supplementation of vitamin A in lower quantities with frequent dosing instead of a heavy dose once every couple of weeks?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> So I ordered from that link, Solaray ....and it never showed up
> 
> 
> S


Shawn, 

They're out of stock. I ordered some a few weeks ago and I'm still waiting for them to get back in stock.


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## Allen Repashy (Jul 17, 2009)

A good source of Vitamin A in a powdered form is very difficult to find, and as Ed says, if not carefully used it could be disastrous. Any vitamin you are finding as a human supplement has likely already been cut, but still so strong that you would have to be really careful with it. 

The pure form I use is 500,000 IU per GRAM!.... so only about a half a gram goes into a *KILO* of Calcium Plus! Dust a cricket with that stuff straight and I would imagine it would tox out and die. 

I have no idea the levels in what people are using here, but I would think that a good starting point would be something in the order of 2-5 times the levels in calcium plus..... so 1,000,000 - 2,500,000 IU/*KILO* = 1,000-2,500 IU/*Gram* of dust.... to be used occasionally.

Ed points out that it seems that once he gets a frog back on track, that the levels in Calcium Plus are sufficient to maintain good production... meaning that if they are raised on such levels from the beginning, that they should be fine.... and how I designed it. I do think that over time, a deficient specimen would recover on Calcium Plus alone, but under the pressures of continued breeding in an specimen that is already deficient..... what Ed is doing might be necessary. Either that, or you might have to shut the animals down from breeding for a significant amount of time.

While we are on the subject.... I see mention of retinyl palmitate vs. retinyl acetate and would like to know what evidence there is that one works better than another if anyone can comment.

It wouldn't be difficult for me to make such a product, but it would have to be commercially viable and I don't know what kind of market there would be for something like that.

Allen


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

I think I have a spare unopened bottle, If either of you guys want it i'll look around


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

It takes forever!



sports_doc said:


> so i ordered from that link, solaray ....and it never showed up
> 
> 
> S


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

gary1218 said:


> Shawn,
> 
> They're out of stock. I ordered some a few weeks ago and I'm still waiting for them to get back in stock.





dmartin72 said:


> It takes forever!


If you guys have a Vitamin Cottage nearby, they keep it in stock. That's where I got mine.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Allen Repashy said:


> I have no idea the levels in what people are using here, but I would think that a good starting point would be something in the order of 2-5 times the levels in calcium plus..... so 1,000,000 - 2,500,000 IU/*KILO* = 1,000-2,500 IU/*Gram* of dust.... to be used occasionally.
> 
> Allen


thanks. i was looking for just that sort of info.

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Allen,

My brain isn't working as well as I'm still beat but let see if I can answer some things here.... 




Allen Repashy said:


> A good source of Vitamin A in a powdered form is very difficult to find, and as Ed says, if not carefully used it could be disastrous. Any vitamin you are finding as a human supplement has likely already been cut, but still so strong that you would have to be really careful with it.
> 
> The pure form I use is 500,000 IU per GRAM!.... so only about a half a gram goes into a *KILO* of Calcium Plus! Dust a cricket with that stuff straight and I would imagine it would tox out and die.


Hmm... I'll need to pull out the papers on mealworms but I don't think it works that way with the insects. The dry vitamin A is cut with beta carotene but it still contains a significant level of retinyl palmitate. 



Allen Repashy said:


> I have no idea the levels in what people are using here, but I would think that a good starting point would be something in the order of 2-5 times the levels in calcium plus..... so 1,000,000 - 2,500,000 IU/*KILO* = 1,000-2,500 IU/*Gram* of dust.... to be used occasionally.
> 
> Ed points out that it seems that once he gets a frog back on track, that the levels in Calcium Plus are sufficient to maintain good production... meaning that if they are raised on such levels from the beginning, that they should be fine.... and how I designed it. I do think that over time, a deficient specimen would recover on Calcium Plus alone, but under the pressures of continued breeding in an specimen that is already deficient..... what Ed is doing might be necessary. Either that, or you might have to shut the animals down from breeding for a significant amount of time.


I suspect you are correct on it probably being sufficient if the animal is reared on it.. but as I noted the anecdotal reports are that it doesn't supply quite enough to resolve issues with frogs that are deficient and under continous metabolic stress. One of the things that will eventually help clear up the picture would be if one or more of the Zoos using it would give you access to necropsy reports on amphibians with whom it is being used. Those results are going to give the best picture of what is going on with the supplements as they can look for squamous metaplasia or other signs of insufficient vitamin A. 

As for the levels of the dry A, even with regrinding, it doesn't adhere as well as supplements made for dusting so the dosages are going to be hard to estimate but I haven't seen any symptoms of oversupplementation and others based on veterinary suggestions may supplement as often as once a week (I'm just more cautious as I've seen issues in the past with over supplementation of A in anurans). 

I want to do some more trials with some frogs including egg feeders. I'm setting up some vivaria to do those trials. 



Allen Repashy said:


> While we are on the subject.... I see mention of retinyl palmitate vs. retinyl acetate and would like to know what evidence there is that one works better than another if anyone can comment.
> 
> It wouldn't be difficult for me to make such a product, but it would have to be commercially viable and I don't know what kind of market there would be for something like that.
> 
> Allen


 
I have not seen any indication of one source of retinly working better than the other. It is simply the one that may be more available as a human grade dry mix. I suspect that the differences in availability are too small to be of a concern. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flapjax3000 said:


> Ed, I was concerned as well about the possibilities of overdosing. Did you dust with pure vitamin A or did you cut it at all?
> 
> I was tossing around the idea of cutting it with a few fillers such as glucose, sorbitol, fructose, whey or corn starch, but had concerns of effects to the darts diet, especially the sugar based products. I had also thought about mixing crushed vitamin A into my older supplements that are out of date.
> 
> My main concern of creating a mixture is the proportions. Is there any benefit to providing a gradual supplementation of vitamin A in lower quantities with frequent dosing instead of a heavy dose once every couple of weeks?


If you can cycle down your frogs for a few months you should have good success with the premade supplements. If you can't or are unwilling you can use the human grade dry A capsules like others have done. I have not seen or heard of overdosing symptoms when used on a infrequent basis. I used it twice a month for three months and reversed the issues with ventrimaculatus and D. ebraccatus. I wasn't able to test the ventrimaculatus with the Repashy products but I did do trials with the ebraccatus and once the symptoms were gone, they did not reoccur when using just the herp supplements. 
I intend to do some more trials at home so eventually I'll have some anecdotals evidence to provide.


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## Allen Repashy (Jul 17, 2009)

I use a spray dried "water soluble" form of vitamin A acetate in my premix that has a very fine particle size. The minimum purchase quantity is 20 kilos, and it costs $90. per kilo. So thats a two grand pop for something that even I can't use up before it expires even though I refrigerate it. It is dated for 24 months at room temp, but I toss what I don't use in six months (refrigerated) just to be sure it is at full potency, which is about half a bag Ouch!

I have a few things on my plate right now with the SuperFly development, but in a couple of weeks, I will make up a small batch of it using a superfine carrier and make it available for those who want to try it. I think that 5x the levels of A vs. calcium plus would be a good starting point for a once a week type of test. I haven't figured out the levels that Ed was using, but was definitely higher. Though the efficacy of a vitamin after it is reground from a tablet might not be as potent as the label states.


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## Allen Repashy (Jul 17, 2009)

Hey guys,

Quick Update. Finally dialed in the label for the "Vitamin A Plus" and have them off to the printer. I only made a few hundred labels because I don't expect to sell a lot of this stuff, but I do expect that for those who need it, it will be a silver bullet. It could find more use for treating hypovitamintosis A in herbivores omnivores (not just herps, but birds too) that are sympomatic in the form of shedding issues or eye problems. I think it could also find good use in Avian nutrition because Vitamin A deficiency in captive birds is quite common, but might require a separate label to find customers.

As far as I can tell, there isn't another Vitamin A only supplement on the market, so hopefully it will turn out to be viable enough to continue production. 

FYI, I settled on 10X the vitamin A levels in the Calcium Plus and SuperVite.

Allen


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Label looks great! When will this be available?
Might want to add some symptoms here, as to what may be caused by hypovitaminosis of Vitamin A. Such as poor egg development, sls, sts, sticky toes?
Also, Here is a link to a post where Ed discusses the difficulties in determinng proper dosage.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/583398-post19.html


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## Allen Repashy (Jul 17, 2009)

I should have product ready to ship by the end of next week to my dealers. Too late for changes, the labels are already at the printer. I didn't add specific symptoms because the product isn't just for frogs, and in the long run, frogs will probably be a small percentage of the consumption...... 

Allen


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Great! Looking forward to it


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

no more crushing pills for me


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## auratusross (Jan 3, 2011)

Will i be able to buy this product anywhere in the uk? I presume i can order it off your website but shipping itself would be around 20 dollars. I currently use calcium plus icb, which i purchased from a retailer in the uk but they do not stock any of your other products. Maybe they would order some in for me i suppose....


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm a little late in this conversation, but thought I'd weigh in.

I use this one, from The Vitamin Shoppe. They are 10,000 IU tablets (as palmitate), and already cut with mostly dicalcium phosphate. It's cheap, and I seem to be able to get a fine enough powder to stick to the flies.

I don't usually rely on proportions for the correct delivery, but I usually give a small portion of flies at one feeding, with no other supplementation except the straight vitamin A powder.

As a side note, I have an Azureus frog that I raised, which was a runt, and unable to eat well because he either had a short, or non-sticky tongue. At a year old, he still looked like a small juvenile. But after the vitamin A, he can "strike" at flies now, and he's quite large, and the dominant male in that tank.


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