# Making Fake Rocks



## Onagro

Does anyone know how to make fake rock for backgrounds? It's not for darts, but it does need to be able to be submerged long-term. Would great stuff work?


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## Frog10

are you asking what would you use to make a false backround? If so, yes great stuff would work


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## Rain_Frog

epoxy...


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## zBrinks

check out this link:

http://geckosunlimited.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8200

*I dont know how to resize it, dont hate me!*


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## Onagro

Thanks, everyone! The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to make fake limestone backgrounds for a group of blind cave tetras. Is there any type of waterproof, non-toxic paint that could be used?


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## *slddave*

I believe the europeans use epoxy resin for the water section of their paladiums.


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## Rain_Frog

onagro, I made a fake rock background with epoxy and the results are nearly fool proof. If you throw a lot of sand and clay on it and then sand it afterwards...it looks real.

Please search here for the article "mixing epoxy for water tanks" by me. I got it from West System when I made my own background.


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## Onagro

Rain Frog, I read that post on the epoxy background and really appreciate your help! That sounds like a great idea. I will let you know how it turns out (it will probably be after Christmas because that's when I'm getting the biocube)

I've had these fish since I was 11 years old and just think they deserve better than a 10 gallon with blue gravel and a castle.


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## costaricalvr12

Don't speak to soon... check this out:

http://www.vivariumconcepts.com/content/view/40/25/


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## Rain_Frog

_Rain Frog, I read that post on the epoxy background and really appreciate your help! That sounds like a great idea. I will let you know how it turns out (it will probably be after Christmas because that's when I'm getting the biocube_

that's ok, because epoxy is best cured in warm temperatures...this is really not the best time of the year to try it. I advise you to mount some heat lamps over the curing epoxy in a shed to raise the temp at least to 120 degrees for four hours (or whatever the article says).

The vivarium mortar I've been told by Cindy herself is designed for small applications. You have to be careful not to make layers or anything too thin or it'll crack. So, not a good idea if you want to make a background. 

However, for small rocks or something it'll probably work well. Just be careful with pH if this is for a fish tank.


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## StevenBonheim

Epoxy all the way


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## defaced

Holy sh!t :shock: 
Those look ace! 

Would you care to elaborate on the process you used to make them? I'm especially interested in how you got the shapes and cleaved surfaces so real. Pretty please


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## Rain_Frog

you should have been around to see my background. Looked like real cement.

Mike, go outside and dig up some very thick clay soil. Let it dry until its powdery.

Get some play sand as well.

On the last two coats of epoxy, throw sand and powdery clay soil ontop of it and let it dry for the required length of time. Then, sand it well and it looks almost fool proof.

DO NOT use coco peat instead because it will catch on fire.


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## zBrinks

Steven, post the process on how you made those rocks! Pretty, pretty please!


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## Onagro

zBrinks said:


> Steven, post the process on how you made those rocks! Pretty, pretty please!


I agree! Are they made the same way as a background?


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## *slddave*

Someone get me a new pair of pants cause I just crapped myself!!


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## zBrinks

There's a thread about Antone selling pants somewhere on the forum in the past week - you should check it out!


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## Resilient

No no, we wanted to know how to make rocks out of epoxy... not the first step for making epoxy out of rocks. :wink:


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## Guest

I checked out some of those links and it said to buy expanding foam. So I bought some today and it says it causes sensitization by skin contact or inhalation. Would that be ok to put in a vivarium, or is there anyway to make it non-toxic?


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## Guest

I checked out some of those links and it said to buy expanding foam. So I bought some today and it says it causes sensitization by skin contact or inhalation. Would that be ok to put in a vivarium, or is there anyway to make it non-toxic?


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## Resilient

if its great stuff or something like that, then its just bad when its wet, once it drys its totally safe for vivs.


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## tchok13

Another method

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_aquarium_background.php


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## Dancing frogs

StevenBonheim said:


> Epoxy all the way


Steven, all I can say is WOW!
Is there anything you can't make from epoxy?


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## Ryan

Steven...that was cruel.


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## Onagro

costaricalvr12 said:


> Don't speak to soon... check this out:
> 
> http://www.vivariumconcepts.com/content/view/40/25/


Sounds useful! Has anyone here used this product?


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## MonopolyBag

costaricalvr12 said:


> Don't speak to soon... check this out:
> 
> http://www.vivariumconcepts.com/content/view/40/25/


NO I tried this stuff and I found it very hard to use and very very very disappointing. The cost is WAY TO HIGH for what you get. DO NOT USE!

I was going for an underwater rock feature, and i tried the stuff. i ran out in seconds. It just plain sucks! The stuff is like burning money, but without the excitement of watch the fire.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29539


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## HX

Styrofoam, tile grout, epoxy resin:









Another:









Another, but without epoxy, just acrylic polymere mixed with the grout:









And yet another one of those:


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## MonopolyBag

This stuff is awesome! Can you provide more detail?

Does the tile grout go on before the epoxy resin?


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## HX

Well, here's the last of those pictured above, under construction:









The blue stuff is polystyrene, sold under the name Solimate 300. Easy to cut with a knife, glue together with aquarium silicone and melt with a soldering gun and/or hot air or bhutane torch.

After being carved the foam is coated with several layers of grout, colours chosen according to the finish you wish to achieve. I prefer darkish and grayish finishes to keep the tank more peaceful than having a very colourfull background.

The grout is then kept wet for a couple of weeks to let the cement (grout is basically cement, sand and colouring) cure. When cement dries, curing stops.
After being cured you either coat the whole thing with epoxy or not. I have done both and used them in terrariums, vivariums and aquariums with no ill effects.
Epoxy is good in strengthening the surface, but I prefer to just use a lot of concrete strengthening emulsion mixed in with the grout while working, due to the unnaturally glossy appearance of the epoxy resin.

So there, no magic.


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## MonopolyBag

I thank you.

This helps. I am still confused about the epoxy. if you put epoxy on and it is blue, and it goes over the grout (cement) then why does it come out looking nice colored.

So, to get the color you want, you use different colored tile grout?


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## HX

My pleasure.
Obviously, the epoxy I use is clear, not blue.

Grout is the colour, yes. And the final sweep I do is with a very dark yet watery colour (black or dark gray) to shade the deep carvings.


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## MonopolyBag

Thanks. Sorry I thought you said the blue stuff was resin, but it is the foam, got is.

Now do i put a layer of resin before the grout, or only after (optional)

I think what you are saying is that I need not to buy any resin.

And you said this can go also in aquariums.

And for Styrofoam you use great stuff or that blue stuff, which works better?
And any tools you recommend I buy or make sure I have to cut and carve the grout and Styrofoam?

And last, can you explain the cement strengthener emulsion, any brands you prefer?

And do you build these right in the tank? Or outside then place them in after?

Sorry for all the questions but I would like to work on this tomorrow and maybe buy the stuff tonight or tomorrow morning.

I have been unable to find the Solimate 300 anywhere. Did you spell it wrong or what? I looked online. Would Home Depot have it?




And does any moss and things ever grow on it after being made?


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## HX

MonopolyBag said:


> Now do i put a layer of resin before the grout, or only after (optional)


I don't epoxy the foam before the grout. The grout sticks better onto the very uneven texture of the foam after it's cut & melt.



MonopolyBag said:


> I think what you are saying is that I need not to buy any resin.


Any clear kind of epoxy resin. I have used several over the years and they have all proven to be good and non-poisonous after curing. With epoxies, ofcourse, you always need to be very careful to mix the right amount of the components and mix 'em good.
The warnings of the poisonous substances in epoxies is referring to the components before they are mixed and cured.
But ofcourse, I can't guarantee they are all completely pet-proof.



MonopolyBag said:


> And you said this can go also in aquariums.


Yes, I've made many. Just make sure the cement is cured before you add any livestock. Uncured cement affects water Ph dramatically.



MonopolyBag said:


> And for Styrofoam you use great stuff?


I have a feeling that Great Stuff is not styrofoam, but polyurethane foam.
I have worked with pu-foam but it doesn't fit my cutting process too well.
The structure of pu is very uneven and full of huge air pockets, so it takes a hell of a lot of cement to fill to the shapes I'm after. But it can be done.
I use sheets of styrofoam, cut & glue them together to desired masses and cut to the shapes. 



MonopolyBag said:


> And last, can you explain the cement strengthener emulsion, any brands you prefer?


I'm sure the brands I use are not sold down there.
But you are pretty safe to use any that resemble the good old Flevopol. They are acrylic copolymeres.
I have also used pva-emulsions, meant for the same purpose.
One more thing to remember when using them: they are water soluble. So the process of curing the cement is
1) after the coating is done, you let it dry so the polymere dries. After drying out it will not melt when watered.
2) you still need to let the cement cure, so you just wet it and keep it wet for atleast a couple of weeks.



MonopolyBag said:


> And do you build these right in the tank? Or outside then place them in after?


Usually outside. It's very hard to build a backwall of an aquarium inside the aquarium.
But with terrariums that have open fronts I sometimes do it inside the tank.



MonopolyBag said:


> I have been unable to find the Solimate 300 anywhere. Did you spell it wrong or what? I looked online. Would Home Depot have it?


The spelling is good. If it's not sold in The U.S, just get any styrofoam/polystyrene sheetings.




MonopolyBag said:


> And does any moss and things ever grow on it after being made?


There's Java moss growing on it in the second photo up there. Even when the paludarium was used for brackish water fiddler crabs.
Needless to say, any covering containing organic matter is a better surface for live moss or plants than a cement-based surface.


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## MonopolyBag

OK thanks.

I think I have one final question.

Do you have to melt the styrofoam? And if so what do you recommend to melt it with?

I found this, would this work?
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=15357-10477-15357&lpage=none


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## HX

No, you don't.
But I do it for two reasons: it's easy to form the foam with heat and it actually hardens the surface of the foam when melted and let cool again.

Soldering gun. Hot air gun. Bhutane torch. Lighter. Candle.

Outdoors and/or with a gasmask. The fumes are not very good for your health.

Sorry, but the link only gives me Lowes homepage.

But anyhow, any foam as mentioned before. Just try out and choose the one you like to work with.


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## MonopolyBag

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=15357-10477-15357&pad=true

And I have worked with resins before so i do own a gas mask.


What do you use to cut it?


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## HX

Xlent for the mask..
The link still just wants my zip code and does't lead me anywhere.

Thin-bladed knives, sawers, anything.


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## MonopolyBag

OK, just enter a zip code, enter this... 03079 and it should work.


And I thank you again for your help. I will post anything I get on my aquarium in the vivarium area. It is a 20 gallon tank. and and I am not going for a background as much as a rock formation, I hope what you gave me helps. I am going for a cave and an arch, and a raised bed with some undergrowth aquatic plants in it.

Your technique sounds like it takes a long time, but comes out good and is not too expensive.

What are your ideas on price of doing it your way?


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## HX

2" x 4' x 8' R-Tech Expanded Polystyrene R-7.8

Yeah, sounds about right. 2" is a nice thickness, you don't have to glue too many layers together to make a pile.

Takes a bit of time, true.

The materials are cheap. To me they tend to be free, as I work with them all the time.
Epoxy is the most expensive stuff used. If you decide to use it.

As for an estimation of the price, I can't really say. Made for a client they are a bit pricy, but that's almost entirely hours, not materials.

Good luck. Be patient, if you are not familiar with the materials. Plan first.


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## MonopolyBag

Yup, I have many years of experience with sculpting, art, and things like that. So I am not entirely new to this. I am not going to use resin, because like you said, it takes away from the more natural rock look. And in terms of planning. I think about it all the time, and have a design in my head already. Thanks again.


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## HX

Sounds like you're half way there already. Sculpting is half the trick, surface texture and colour the other half.

One more obvious thing: they float, so you need to glue them good to the bottom of your tank. Or think of another way to keep them submerged.

Again, my pleasure.


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## MonopolyBag

Yeah, i expected they float.

I was planning on sealing them with the aquarium sealant to the back of the glass and around the base of the rock.

It is going to be awesome once I am done. And with my larger red eyed tree frog vivarium, I plan to somehow use it also with my natural looking background with dirt and stuff, and have a rock cliff face with a water fall. Large one.


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## HX

Good plan.
Here's one of my old paludariums that I'm planning on rescaping and -lighting to get it more plant friendly:









Its some six feet tall, the aqua-part being about 20 gallons. The lighting will be a challenge.

Another pic to show the shape better:









It's also got a waterfall from almost top to the water part, sorta showing in this:









Sorry for the downright crappy pics...


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## pilo0024

wow this is awesome....monopoly bag let us know how it turns out. by the way i heard you can get butt loads of polysteryne foam at junk yards. i got a bunch when i was walking buy a house construction site and they had a ton of scraps i could take. now i just need to figure out that cementing deal. so do you just go to the hardware store and buy straight tile grout?


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## MonopolyBag

Yes, but choose good colors. But I am getting new stuff, better quality than used.

Choose colors base don what you want.

And I will let you know, about the photos above, they are not too bad.


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## HX

MonopolyBag said:


> Yes, but choose good colors. But I am getting new stuff, better quality than used.


A quick word about the subject: there are "modern" grouts that have additives to modify the cement to strengthen the grout and make it more dirt-resistant. A rule of thumb is, that they are all completely safe to use after they have dried out.
Modified grouts tend to stick better and last longer and need less fussing with the additives mentioned above.
I still recommend usage of an acrylic copolymere.

There are also different grains of grout, i.e. the grainsize of the sand filler is larger in a grout meant for thick tilegrouts.
These give you a different texture on the finish.
Adding sand of different size is also possible.


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## MonopolyBag

Thanks again.

Do you sand your finished pieces to give it a bit smoother look and feel?


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## HX

Depends on what I'm after.
Erosion wears rock variably. Some stones are smooth, others are not.
I try to pay special attention to making the waterfall parts more uneven and edgy than others.
Sanding with very coarse paper gives a nice look, sometimes a wire brush does magic when you use it before the grout hardens...


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## MonopolyBag

O good idea, wire brush. Nice.


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## HX

Talking about sanding, one more thing came to mind: if you lay a lighter, or almost white layer of grout first, and then a darker on top of that, you can get a nice effect by sanding through the darker coat on the outer edges of the "stone". That's how rock often looks like in the nature.

Another thing I don't think I mentioned is that in between the layers you need to let the grout harden. If you need a thick layer, let the latest one dry out completely before doing the next.


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## MonopolyBag

OK thanks, so how thick does the final amount of grout turn out to be? about an inch or less?

And thanks for that white sanding layer tip. Now that I think of it, that is how nature is.



Big question. There is no green grout really. How can I get a greenish look? Can I add some that fake grass stuff that you shake on the glue for model trains?

Stuff like this... http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/scn/scn900.htm


Or would light coat of non toxic green paint work better?

I want an algae type of look to it. Since these are fake it will retard the growth of live mosses and algae a little bit, so i want to add some fake.


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## HX

MonopolyBag said:


> OK thanks, so how thick does the final amount of grout turn out to be? about an inch or less?


Less, definately. I started making these versions originally after moving with 18 aquariums. Motivating your friends to carry the tanks is easy. Motivating them to carry 18 tanks worth of stone decorations is impossible. I needed something very light to decorate the tanks with.
So I'd estimate the final layer to be only a few millimeters or so. 1/10 ". Thicker on places you want to fill in after the initial carving is done.




MonopolyBag said:


> Big question. There is no green grout really. How can I get a greenish look? Can I add some that fake grass stuff that you shake on the glue for model trains?
> Or would light coat of non toxic green paint work better?


I have used tinting pastes meant for toning paints. And powders that are sold under "ground colour" here in F. Toxicity being the big question, whatever you use.
Also, you can get blue and yellow and mix them for green.

Funny, we've got several green toned grouts.




MonopolyBag said:


> I want an algae type of look to it. Since these are fake it will retard the growth of live mosses and algae a little bit, so i want to add some fake.


Actually, algae grows on this cement coating quite well. And you're right, it does give you a very natural look.


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## rmelancon

Question about curing... you say you keep it wet for a couple of weeks but let it dry between coats... and that when it is dry the concrete is cured. So what is the reason for keeping wet for so long? Could you not just spread and let it dry and that would be the end of it? Not doubting the methods just curious as to what's happening "chemically", is prolonging the curing time making it stronger?


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## MonopolyBag

I am not so sure, but basically works the same way as cement, look it up online, wikipedia? Yes, I think it ends up being stringer, and more chemical changes, and prevents cracking.


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## HX

rmelancon said:


> Question about curing... you say you keep it wet for a couple of weeks but let it dry between coats... and that when it is dry the concrete is cured. So what is the reason for keeping wet for so long? Could you not just spread and let it dry and that would be the end of it? Not doubting the methods just curious as to what's happening "chemically", is prolonging the curing time making it stronger?


Cement cures with water only. When it dries up, curing stops. But when you wet it again, curing goes on.
So keeping it wet for a couple of weeks does not prolong but shortens curing time.
The additives, acrylic copolymeres and others as pva, are air curing, so they cure when they dry up. Drying the layer first cures the additives but pauses the cement curing.

It does take more than a couple of weeks for cement to cure completely, I know. But thin layers seem to have no dramatic effect on water ph after two weeks/month. It is always smart to monitor it before adding animals.

Letting it dry in between coats makes brushing another coat easier, I think. And it lets the polymere additives dry up/cure. I often use an air blower to speed up drying while making the rockwalls.
And when the previous coat is dry, brushing in the latter won't mess up the previous coat. Also, you can lay a thicker coat, when the dry coat sucks water from the wet you brush in...
And it doesn't seem to have any effect on the final hardness of the coating.

I have a feeling there's some bad english in my text. Sorry.


For those that are not into sculpting, there's a relatively easy way of making rock by moulding it, presented here by a finn guy in english: http://jyrkiboy.aqua-web.org/


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## MonopolyBag

Yes, i saw this before, really good. If anyone want to know, look into alumilite. http://alumilite.com/ Very good stuff, and cost may seem high, but it is reasonable. Hard to work with though for newbies. Must know your stuff, and slightly toxic when wet, but when it dries I think it is fine. I use it for making custom pieces for LEGO that are plastic, very very good.


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## rmelancon

HX said:


> ...Cement cures with water only. When it dries up, curing stops. But when you wet it again, curing goes on.
> So keeping it wet for a couple of weeks does not prolong but shortens curing time.
> ...


So if you don't keep wetting it for the 2 weeks or so, it is dry but when you put it in a tank, the cement (being wet again) will restart the curing process which could be toxic, right? To rewet do you just spray it or do you need to soak it?


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## rmelancon

Also is there anything you do the the stryrofoam prior to adding the grout? I found that it doesn't want to stick to the surface very well.


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## jehitch

*Rubber rock molds?*

For those of us whose sculpting abilities are negligible, is it possible to use the latex rubber molds often sold for model railroad scenery? they are designed for use with plaster, but has anyone ever tried applying a layer of grout, then after it cures, filling in the cavity with GS foam to keep it light? 

Or even filling the mold with GS, then coating the resulting cast with grout? 

... Just looking for an easy way out of studying geology and learning carving ... 

Jim


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## HX

rmelancon said:


> So if you don't keep wetting it for the 2 weeks or so, it is dry but when you put it in a tank, the cement (being wet again) will restart the curing process which could be toxic, right? To rewet do you just spray it or do you need to soak it?


Right, curing will start again when it gets wet.

Spraying does the trick. Soaking is sometimes faster, but with thin coats it does't really make a difference.



rmelancon said:


> Also is there anything you do the the stryrofoam prior to adding the grout? I found that it doesn't want to stick to the surface very well.


Playing with thickness of the grout usually helps. The first layer is sometimes very thin and you can even see the foam through the grout. But once it's dried, the second layer sticks better and thicker.

Some makes of grout are harder to get stuck. Doing the first layer with tile plaster instead of grout usually solves the problem with these.

And ofcourse, more uneven texture on the foam makes a big difference.


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## wbeavers

The way I would do this is with three different color grouts: black, dark grey, medium grey. I would put the darkest color down first, and then proceed to the next lighter color, and so on. This would be able to give you a shadowing effect in the recesses.


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## MonopolyBag

I understand, thanks.


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## HX

wbeavers said:


> The way I would do this is with three different color grouts: black, dark grey, medium grey. I would put the darkest color down first, and then proceed to the next lighter color, and so on. This would be able to give you a shadowing effect in the recesses.


I find it easier to do the other way 'round. Laying a darker after the lighter layer and "wash" it away from the outer parts of the "rock" with water and brush.
But that's just me.


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## HX

Sorta like this one. First a lighter gray, then darker... Looks brownish in the pics, but isn't in reality. The construction halogen seems to discolor it.

The wall was a bit tricky to construct into a glass back separating a waterfall of brackish water and a slow drip-style freshwater part, so I glued the polystyrene together/filled the gaps with polyurethane:









Did the grout:









Detail:









It's still drying up to receive the final shading.


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## rmelancon

So will the cement cure if it is submerged?


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## HX

Sure. They even do underwater structures by laying fresh concrete into submerged molds.


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## MonopolyBag

Long post, lol. OK well I got my vivarium today, and have been working on my fish tank, will post soon with results. So far so good, just I have trouble shaping it, anything you recommend? Like any specific knife you use? So far I have found to get rough design with swiss army knife, then I use my dremel to cut away at it slowly.


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## HX

I do rough cutting with thin blade knives. Either a cut-blade hobby knife (in lack of a better name) or even a sharpened breadknife.
Fine tuning with a soldering gun. Less of that annoying styrodust everywhere.
Then the final rounding out with a bhutane torch (the size meant for soldering and such.


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## MonopolyBag

OK thanks.


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## pa.walt

try using a serrated knife/ steak knife,the type with teeth to rough cut. if you feel like buying this they have something called a sureform i think it is. it has a wood planer body and a rasp type cutting side. the blades do come seperate so you could just buy the "blades" i think they also use this type of tool when you do dondo/body work on a vehicle. also hobby shops have cutting tools for foam shaping. kind of looks like a coping saw but is a hot bladed tool. hope that made sense.


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## rmelancon

HX said:


> ... Letting it dry in between coats makes brushing another coat easier, I think....


When you say "brusing another coat" are you brushing the grout on with a paintbrush and if so are you adding more water to the grout to make it more "soupy" so that it can be "painted" on?


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## HX

Yes. I do the basic coating with a more running mixture of grout, water and concrete binder.
In places that need fixing after the cutting&melting I use a dryish, even clayish mixture.

Sorry for not mentionig this and I'm sure many other things that are obvious to me.
Also, please share your inventions and ideas to refine the process... anyone trying it out.


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## MonopolyBag

pa.walt said:


> try using a serrated knife/ steak knife,the type with teeth to rough cut. if you feel like buying this they have something called a sureform i think it is. it has a wood planer body and a rasp type cutting side. the blades do come seperate so you could just buy the "blades" i think they also use this type of tool when you do dondo/body work on a vehicle. also hobby shops have cutting tools for foam shaping. kind of looks like a coping saw but is a hot bladed tool. hope that made sense.


I think I am going to go and try to find a really good serrated knife at some store today, thanks. I have been having trouble getting the fine detail when it comes to sharp edges, I have only been able to get round edges with the dremel.

I have however started with my smaller vivarium and started the background, this one I am only using GreatStuff expanding Foam. Thanks.


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## HX

HX said:


> It's still drying up to receive the final shading.


... and after black shading, here's what it looks like. Left side dried up, right side still wet...tish. But anyhow, the pic shows that the "rock" does the same thing as natural rock does: it gets darker&brighter when it gets wet. Looks very nice in a vivarium with a water feature.









Flahs eats away the depth of the structure. Tough.


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## rmelancon

HX said:


> Yes. I do the basic coating with a more running mixture of grout, water and concrete binder.
> In places that need fixing after the cutting&melting I use a dryish, even clayish mixture.
> 
> Sorry for not mentionig this and I'm sure many other things that are obvious to me.
> Also, please share your inventions and ideas to refine the process... anyone trying it out.


So far I have a basic fairly round "rock" as my first attempt. I mixed the grout based on the instruction on the packaging and added a small amount of ACE Concrete Bonding additive and as such was quite thick. Seems to be holding though. I also made the mistake of mixing the two colors (gray and tan) and basically got slightly darker gray. I am going to make a thin mixture of the tan and paint it on. We'll see how that works...


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## HX

Btw, Monopolybag, When you make a fake rock to be placed in an aquarium

front:









you can ofcourse cut&melt the foam after finishing the decoration

rear:








to cut the lift of the foam under water and make it easier to fix.

After gutting (knife, straight grinder with a wood carving bit, bhutane torch) the bit in pics I brushed epoxy resin into the engraved insides and threw some sand on. Just to strengthen it a bit.


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## MonopolyBag

Thanks.


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## darkpilatus

*Foam*

Does anyone of a place in the San Francisco Bay Area that sells this Polystyrene?


----------



## darkpilatus

*polystyrene*

So i bought some EPS and it isnt the same stuff that HX is using. The foam beads in the stuff you buy at lowes is very large and doesnt lend itself to sculpting very well. The stuff HX is using is more like Balsa Foam or sculting foam. Bothare very difficult to find unless you buy online. 

http://www.foammart.com/specialfx10.html

http://www.dickblick.com/zz331/11a/


----------



## pa.walt

go back to lowes and look again. there is like 3 types of foam board that i can think of. look for the blue colored stuff pretty sure that is what he might be using. there is other thicker stuff but it has a aluminum foil like cover on it. the stuff is in the lumber department. it is used to insulate a house. or just ask a person for the blue styro type stuff.


----------



## HX

Some info on it...
http://www.dow.com/styrofoam/index.htm

So what you're looking for is "extruded polystyrene foam".
Or just "extruded styrofoam"...


----------



## darkpilatus

*Polystyrene foam*

Yeah I was at my Lowes and they only had the large bead stuff. They didnt have the dense blue stuff...I am still looking but Im not having a lot of luck. Im in San Francisco Bay area you would think that they would have it available...I went to the DOW site so i know what Im looking for just not finding it so If anybody from my area knows of a place that sells it let me know...thanks everyone


----------



## DF20

the large foam beaded foam will work, its just really messy, the texture comes off nice tho, just put a real waterd down layer first, then go back over with 2 thicker coats. i have a question for HX, does vineger help at all with the curing process? and if the grout is not fully cured will it hurt the frogs? also, does the PH of the water effect the frogs? if so what range 7.0? i will post some pictures of my attempts tom as soon as possible..


----------



## pa.walt

its funny that you were able to find the beady stuff and not the other ones i mentioned. they are all used for insulating walls. 
maybe you could go in the lowes site and do a search if they would have the stuff. they also should be able to special order it if you really want the stuff.


----------



## HX

DF20 said:


> i have a question for HX, does vineger help at all with the curing process? and if the grout is not fully cured will it hurt the frogs? also, does the PH of the water effect the frogs? if so what range 7.0? i will post some pictures of my attempts tom as soon as possible..


Vinegar balances the ph. But I'm actually not sure if it helps curing cement.
I don't use it, but some people seem to.

I don't know if it really hurts the frogs, but I don't take chances.
Cement will affect the water Kh for awhile, and thus the ph also, but only slightly.
It's hard to say exactly what the parameters should be, 'cause it depends on the water you use...

Looking forward to seeing your results.


----------



## DF20

*First Attempt*

this is my first attempt at making fake rocks. they are made from normal white styrofoam from home depot. i used a hot glue gun to put the sheets together then use a miny saw and soulder gun to melt away styrofoam. then applied natural grey tile grout (sanded) over the surface. the 2 backgrounds were made to fit in 10 gal horizontal tanks. the one i designed has parts to put plants in and a lil cave and some mini water pools.








My first attempt

















my lil bros design

the next photos are of an enclosed waterfall feature it wud prob fit nicely in a 20 gallon, no need for a false bottom if all the water is kept in the water feature























































the watefall was a lil wet from misting so the rock looks a lil splotchy also its SCREEN FILTER not SCROON FILTOR,lol the white styrofoam has lil beads the go EVERYWHERE they will stick to you and everything so its really messy when sawing it, but if you use the soulder gun it cuts away like butter and leaves it harder, so i suggest going over the entire surface lightly with the soulder gun to make it hard and the grout sticks easier to the styrofoam. also use the soulder gun outside and with a mask, it smells horrible lol, and isnt to good for ur health, learned that the hard way...lol...if you have any questions just ask..they are nothing compared to HX's but at least i tried, well thats what ive done so far, let me know what you think guys thanks


----------



## HX

Hey, good going.
Is there a mirror in the middle of the larger piece? I see my reflection in it.


----------



## DF20

I am currently working on more projects, the ones previously showed above are for sale, PM me if your interested give me an offer...


----------



## the_noobinator

i thought that mayan mask thing was frylock from aqua teen at first!


----------



## DF20

haha no, its a small tiki statue and i made a cast mold of him and poured grout in let it harden....so its made pretty hard and sturdy and is the same material as the rest of the water feature


----------



## darkpilatus

*HELP!!!*

Ok so it has come to this...I have searched everywhere for this foam...I talked to hardware stores and none of them have it in stock...the only way to order it special is to get like 40 sheets of it... So if someone, anyone has access to solimate 300 i would be willing to pay for you to get me a sheet of it cut the 8 ft length into 5- 19inch strips package it and mail it to me. I will pay for the product the shipping and packaging and your time...anyone? I can do paypal for anyone who has that available to them. Let me know a price and i can go from there.

Thanks


----------



## HX

Darn. I suppose insulation materials are not in too great a demand down there. Tried a hardware store up north, say Vancouver, B.C. or something...?


----------



## pa.walt

*blue siding insulation*

i looked for the stuff at my lowes in pa. and it was in aisle 52. across and down one aisle from the beaded stuff. the sign says siding insulation. there was 3in-4in. thick x4ft.wide x8ft.long. there. also the 1in. to 2in thick stuff also. 
its funny that there does not seem to be any of the stuff there. but then again i can not find any expanding black foam for ponds in my area.


----------



## darkpilatus

I think it is mostly because i live in a place where the temp doesnt get to cold. Thanks


----------



## *slddave*

I think this has to be one of the most informative posts on the board. The technique is simple bu the result is amazing. Can we make this a sticky?


----------



## Ed

You can also get different size pieces of styrofoam through any craft supply store or via the interenet from a craft supplier. These not only offer it in sheets but thicker blocks, cones, and tubes allowing for a variety of sculpting techniques. If you want to go bigger scale then you need to track down the large blocks that are used by some enclosure sculpters. 

Ed


----------



## jdogfunk99

Consider buying one online. There are some good looking ones out there that don't cost that much to ship. Making one from scratch that looks good is truly an art form, and rather difficult.


----------



## Smashtoad

I am very glad you guys reactivated this thread...what a fantastic process. The ramifications for viv design are like...endless?


----------



## ProjectReptile

I have completed about 90% of a free standing waterfall using a 100% rip-off of HX's technique. I took pictures the while through the process so I'll post them up sometime after Thanksgiving. If I must say so myself, the result is looking pretty sharp!


----------



## HX

At least I am glad to hear someone is giving it a go.
Looking forward to seeing your creation.


Another view to


jdogfunk99 said:


> Making one from scratch that looks good is truly an art form, and rather difficult.


might be that it doesn't take much of an artist to make a better looking background for plants than a glass wall is.
I mean, throwing all sorts of organic matter on top of silicone doesn't look exactly natural either, but it beats the crap out of black sheet.

A good idea could be to combine the two: make a stonewall and cover the parts you don't like with Flevopol-moss-coco fiber.


----------



## Ed

If you look at a cliff face that has plants growing on it, 100% of the support area doesn't support plants. They are often in some form of grouping with the occasional vine like structure growing over the clear spots. This can be replicated to some extent by using one of the clay substrates that has been discussed in other threads. The osmunda is cut to the desired shapes and glued to the back of the tank and then the clay admixture is then mixed and spread around the osmunda. The clay is allowed 24-30 hours to set and the tank can be turned back upright and planted and the drip system started. 

see for an exmple before it grows in http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/a ... ustank.jpg

http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/a ... s_tank.jpg

Except for the bromeliad and a couple pieces of selaginella, all of those plants came out of the mixture and the osmunda fiber. I actually have been thinning it down to get to where I want it. 

Ed


----------



## rusticitas

One of the recent issues of "The Aquatic Gardener" (journal of the Aquatic Gardener Association) has an article about making fake rocks. The guy who wrote it had made them for an African cichlid tank, but I don't see why that should matter for the discussion here.

Vol. 20, No. 1 (Jan-Mar 2007), p.25-31, "Making Artificial Mould Stones for an Aquarium". Mentions materials easily found in Finland, but followup article lists N.A. equivalents.

Vol. 20, No. 2 (Apr-Jun 2007), p.13-14, "DIY Rocks: North American Equivalent Materials".

The chatter seems to indicate his method works pretty well.

I realize this isn't the most convenient way, having to get the articles, but they do a good job with the journal, so it may be worth it to you!


----------



## jdogfunk99

Ed said:


> If you look at a cliff face that has plants growing on it, 100% of the support area doesn't support plants. They are often in some form of grouping with the occasional vine like structure growing over the clear spots.
> Ed


This is so true. A mixture of part rock is the most realistic. I would use real rock is weight wasn't an issue. Being as I don't have the skill to make fake rock, I considered using partly exposed Habi-Scape Rock mixed in with the usual foam/silicone/coco background. Anybody seen this done? Of couse, the background can get obscured over time so I don't know if it's worth the effort. Althought maybe on the sides...


----------



## Ed

If you are redoing a path or building a pond outside you can purchase a half pallet or so of flat rocks and use them on the back. As they are thin, the weight isn't so great and you can fill in around them with other materials. Access to the flat rocks is also an aid as you can cold chisel them into sections to create outcroppings of stone for perches or to place other plants. 

Ed


----------



## hoyta

*nice*

This is awesome! 
I am going to be doing a 65 gallon in a little bit, and am seriously considering using this method. 
Question- Would trickling acetone on certain areas of the foam cause it to "melt"?


----------



## HX

*Re: nice*



hoyta said:


> Question- Would trickling acetone on certain areas of the foam cause it to "melt"?


Certainly would.
I'm not sure if I'm just paranoid, but using heavy solvents with animal housing tends to freak me out. I see uncontrollable poisonous outcome from the melted styrofoam...

But yes, acetone melts styrofoam and even leaves a nice, uneven texture for laying anything on top of.


----------



## *slddave*

I repeat- sticky stiCKY STICKY!!!!!!!!


----------



## kyle1745

Done...


----------



## Ed

styrofoam is soluable in acetone but pouring acetone onto the styrofoam could lead to pockets of acetone into the styro. This could greatly increase the cure time. 

Ed


----------



## hoyta

*hmm*

Acetone is easily one the quickest chemicals to evaporate... I might try this out a little to give it a little bit different texture in spots. Would look good to make an eroded rock look for waterfall areas. 
This is one of those darn articles that has me thinking all the time! I have to do this! LOL


----------



## Ed

Yes but keep in mind for the acetone to evaporate it needs to be exposed to the air. If it gets caught up in pockets of styro then it will take a long time to evaporate. Also, the rate of evaporation can be changed by the amount of styrofoam dissolved in it. You could end up with a very sticky surface for a number of days.... This is why styro is sculpted and then melted with a heat gun... 

If you are going to try the acetone use a brush to paint small amounts onto the styrofoam as this will allow the greatest rate of evaporation. 

Ed


----------



## hoyta

*cool*

Sound good- Was kinda thinking of using a wire brush..
By the way, nice to talk to you again Ed! 
-Adam


----------



## hoyta

is this possible to bump?


----------



## ProjectReptile

As stated before, I am finally putting up some pics.

This is my first waterfall I built copying directly of HX's technique. I had pictures of the entire process, but I lost more than half of them, including the very begining of the project. I used 2" blue foam from Lowes for this and stuck the pieces together using silicone, GE II window and door to be exact. Here is how I arranged the foam blocks before carving:

As you can see, there were 4 pieces all together.









After the silicone cured, I began carving. I tried to just picture how the water will flow as I worked. I added two spots to plant some sort of live plant, probably pothos. The picture below is after carving and after adding the first layer of tile grout, the lighter colored layer:









After letting the cure for 1 week with constant moisture and spraying, I added the next layer of grout, the darker layer:









Once I went through the second week of curing and spraying, I began to sand a few parts to make some highlights. This is where I had a bit of trouble. It didn't sand as easily as I hoped, simply revealing the lighter colored layers below. I tried to use a coarser grain sand paper, but that just broke off chucks of grout, exposing the foam. I think I might have used too much acrylic hardner though. It became too plasticy I think, rather than keeping the 'stone feel' to it. The spots that I sanded too deep I will cover with silicone and cocoa bedding stuck to it. Here is the waterfall with the grout phase being complete:









I slapped on the silicone and coca bedding already, but haven't gotten any pictures of it. I will try to do that tomorrow and show the truly finished piece. I'm excited to take what I have learned with this project and start something bigger and certainly better!


----------



## HX

Nice work.

The thing I do differently is the thickness of the final colouring coat. I brush in a very thin coat of dark grout, to make it easier to wear off to highlight the extended parts of rockwork. A good observation, there. Thanks.

Another thing I find usefull is making the grooves in between cliffs or other masses of stone a bit sharper. I do that using a knife to sort of dig out the grout before it dries out or hardens.

You have understood the process, I see. And the next one will be astonishing, I'm sure.


----------



## ProjectReptile

Thanks for the tips HX. That was certainly a difference in my construction, as I used an equally thick coating of each color. I have a question about your final, darker coat though. Aside from being more thing, do you coat the ENTIRE piece, or only the spots that you know are going to carry the 'dark highlights'??? For example, if you have a stone that is sticking right out in the open and you know it will be lighter, do you coat it with dark anyway and sand through it?? And lastly, when you say "thinner" do you mean the grout is the same consistancy, just not as thick of a layer... or do you mean thinner as in you water down the dark coating a bit more where as it's runnier? Any other info would be appriciated for my next project!


----------



## HX

I mean thinner as in more watery.
I usually sort of cover the whole thing with dark or even black coat and then "wash" it away from the parts that I wish to be lighter, before the grout hardens or dries. It leaves a nice, naturallish finish, because the dark/black color washes unevenly and is left in nooks and crannies. I do sanding or wirebrushing only to bring up the lightest parts to make them look like they are worn...

Good questions, thanks again.


----------



## HX

Edit to previous: "washing" means brushing the grout away with a paint brush and water.


----------



## sbreland

HX,
I have watched this thread evolve and really love the techniques. As not to derail this thread, would it be possible to make a request for some more pics of your other vivs ( like whole tank shots) in the Members viv sections as I am afraid if you post them here it will go off topic.


----------



## HX

Thanks for your interest, sbre'.
Will take it in my agenda.


----------



## ProjectReptile

I second Sbre's notion.

On the rock building note, I am going to look around at Lowes and Home Depot to see if they have a few shades of orange and rust colored grout. I am planning on making a background using this method and those colors to create a 'sandstone' effect for a bearded dragon tank. I'm looking to make a miniture version of something like this:


----------



## zachattack

there is only one red. they also have balck and a mustard yellow. i am makinkg a bg for my beardie that i am attempting to make the final result look like your pic. i am going to use various layers of the afore mentioned colors to achieve this look. i think the results should be good. you can mix the powdered pigments to achieve your ideal shade of rust red.


----------



## zachattack

this is my background for my beardie i am working on. It is blue styrofoam, i covered it with two layers of grout thus far, i have like 3 layers to go.


----------



## hoyta

*nice!*

I like it!


----------



## jpstod

Thanks for sharing everyone.

I am so glad that alot of people in the Hobby of keeping Animals of any type are moving away from just plain empty cages to Naturualistic Vivariums. Just like Zoos have moved away from bland cages. 

I have been looking for 3d Ideas for more tanks.

Keep sharing everyone.


----------



## plural_of_fant

Great thread.. hx you mentioned using an acrylic copolymer several times.. and not much more specific.. care to elaborate? What exactly is it, and how is it used.


----------



## HX

plural_of_fant said:


> . hx you mentioned using an acrylic copolymer several times.. and not much more specific.. care to elaborate? What exactly is it, and how is it used.


Acrylic copolymeres are airdrying 1-component liquid plastics. Stable when dried up.
In this thread I mean the types designed for use in construction industry, additives for modified cements and plasters.
They are used for a number of goals. Strengthening, making the product more flexible or water/grease resistant, sticking better to the surface it's put on. You name it. 
Many makes with slightly different qualities. But of the ones I have used, none have proven unsuitable for this process.
Sold in bottles or cans...

Manufacturers tend to give very specific ratios of mixtures for their products, but basically they are all mixed in with water that is then mixed in with cement/concrete/plaster.

I tend to make a lot thinner (=more water) mixture of grout for this process than what the grout manufacturers recommend. This leads me to believe that the ratios the polymere manufacturers recommend, do not apply.
In general, I mix in less polymere to the mixture than a typical recommendation of 3 parts water/1 part polymere. But I can't give an exact amount...
I just sorta spill some into the mixture and work with it. And sometimes I spray some polymere/water mixture onto the finished stone. It sucks in to the dried up cement quite well and leaves you with a more dirt resistant surface than without a sprayed coat... 

Hope this helps some.


----------



## plural_of_fant

very helpful thank you


----------



## Ed

If I remember correctly... using less than the require ratio can lead to some significant levels of unpolymerized acrylic polymer which can allow the unpolymerized monomers to leach back out of the grout. Monomeric acrylics can be toxic. 

Ed


----------



## HX

Ed said:


> If I remember correctly... using less than the require ratio can lead to some significant levels of unpolymerized acrylic polymer which can allow the unpolymerized monomers to leach back out of the grout. Monomeric acrylics can be toxic.
> 
> Ed


I admit that I've never heard of this before. And I admit my knowledge in chemistry is limited.

I also do realise that when asked about it, the manufacturers of almost all construction materials say they do not guarantee the safety of their materials in aquariums or terrariums.

But.
Flevopol is an acrylic copolymer. I haven't come up with any experience on Flevopol being toxic to problematic levels, despite the fact that it is used in various ratios of mixtures.

A good warning, though, Ed. Thank you.
Goes to show that you can never be too careful with using materials in contact with your animals.


----------



## Ed

When polymerized the acrylic is not toxic it is the unpolymerized (unreacted) that can be toxic. (for an example of several acrylic monomers and toxicity see http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 8d1f39095b . The good thing is that they do degrade fairly rapidly if leached into soil but if bound into a substance like plaster or concrete can take months to leach totally out of the material. 

There is some variation in it. If you want to be sure to avoid the toxicity seal the material with a good marine epoxy that doesn't contain antifouling agents (this is what the Zoos and aquaria do to the structures that are sculpted into thier exhibits). 

Ed


----------



## HX

Usage of epoxy resin is stated earlier in this thread, too. I used to do it to make the hardscaping easier to keep clean and to strengthen it a bit.
But I have more or less quit doing it because it gives a glossy/plasticky appearance to the stoning.
You can get rid of the gloss by rubbing the epoxied surface with some coarse material or by sandblasting it slightly. But I still prefer the stonig without epoxy.
Grout containig acrylic polymere lets all kinds of vegetation stick better and it ages more naturally... But that's just me.


----------



## HX

To give an example of the previous, here's a piece I made some 12 years ago. It was used in a terrarium housing a water dragon.
It was treated with epoxy, but was still not strong enough for a heavy lizzard.
This is what it looked like after fixing the demolished parts and another coat of epoxy after the fix-up:










In the pic you can also notice a phenomenon charasteristic to epoxy: the older bits have taken a yellowish coloration from uv-radiation of the reptile lamps.

I was not at all satisfied with the finish being what it was.
So I redid the whole thing with slight changes, including cutting the outermost parts a bit and drilling a few holes for plants...and then laying a couple of coats of grout with acrylic polymere.
Sorry for the flash, folks.











A couple of closeups:


















At least to my eye it looks better without epoxy.


----------



## HappyHippos1

More pics!? Please! Also HX why would you not go into business and advertise through the classifies, I bet you'd make some decent money.


----------



## HX

Nah...
I'm saving it for a pastime when I'm on pension.

It's propably going to be much better valued then, because according to my calculations, on the rate we're exploiting earth, most types of stone will become extinct by then...

Thanks, I'm here all week...


----------



## perrocabronus

if you use epoxy its water proof, and if youdont, its not, or its just the look?? and kkeping it clean??


----------



## HX

I'm not sure what it is you're after with "water proof".
Cement is "water proof", polymere modified cement even more so, in the sense that it doesn't solve into water at all.
But if you want to make a pool, go for the epoxy, 'cause water will pass through a thin layer of cement to some extent.

Epoxy also gives a better protection towards mechanical wear.


----------



## perrocabronus

just thinking on doing some background for my fish tank, triying to make sure but for now ill try to do some for my new frog tank. thanks


----------



## HX

Right. Well I'd say that under water epoxy does not bother my eye as much as it does in a viv.
But the choise is, ofcourse, yours.

Here's a quick pic of a recent aquarium background and fake wood decoration I made for a brackish aquarium. All hardscaping is grout, no epoxy.


----------



## ProjectReptile

Good lord HX, I'm tempted to say whatever line of work you're in, it's the wrong one. You should be constructing high-dollar exhibits at zoos and aquariums. Some of your rock features are so realistic that I'm doubtful that they aren't REAL rocks. That being said, how many hours would you say you put into a background of decent size. Say one to fit a 20 gal high or something? I'd be interested in see the answer!


----------



## jpstod

I think HX needs to do Charity Work..
I think we need to form a new Charity

Habitat 
For
Critters

:lol: 
I have several critters needing new homes.

Hx definately has artistic Talent when it comes to the Background and other decor made. It is so hard to know its not "real" when viewed. I would have never quessed the branches were not real.

There are so many Artist here


----------



## HX

Humble thanks for your words, guys.

Answering the question about how long it takes to make the 'scapes is a bit complicated. I tend to make them 'cause I enjoy it, it's actually somewhat therapeutic...

The only time I've made them against the clock was a few years back, when I made three rockscapes to fit tanks the size of 80x50x50 cm. That's about 50 gal each.
The depth of the scapings was 15 cm max.
My TagHeuer said it took two hours to cut&glue the blocks together.
The next day I spent eight hours cutting&melting the shapes and laying about three layers of grout onto the shaped blocks. It turned out to be a good way to do it, letting others dry out a bit with a fan while working on one at a time...
And the next day it took two more hours to do the final shading.

So divided, that's four hours each.
But a more relistic estimate for an average, when making one at a time, would propably be twice that.
And quite often I try a new idea for a technique to shape 'em. Go back and forth. Spend a night with it.
No, I'm not married.


----------



## MJ

You do that wearing your Tag?? I wont even plant a viv wearing mine :lol:


----------



## HX

After a dozen hits my screen is begging you to change your avatar...

If it wasn't a Tag, I'd HAVE to take it off, right?


----------



## MJ

:lol: well it can cope but I don't think my head could if I messed it up :shock:


----------



## HX

Fighting christmas boredom.

Not exactly fake rock, but here goes anyhow.

Wanted to try making a woody theme on top of this









So I bent a bit of steel wire and foamed around it









Took a knife and carved a bit









Grouted it









And regrouted with ground reptibark and matching colour of grout, with acrylic polymere









After it dries up, I might do a darker shading...


----------



## sbreland

so you mixed the grout and the reptibark and the acrylic polymer all together and then put it on as a layer? What is the reptibark... is that like cocofiber or something?


----------



## HX

Yes, mixed them all, to get an organic texture in the grooves.

Reptibark is a tree bark substrate for terrariums. I put it in a mixer and ground it to very fine dust...


----------



## pilo0024

ok so i just read this whole thread and am a bit overwhelmed. sorry if these are dumb q's. 

so as i take it, when you mix tile grout with copolymer, the ratio doesn't really matter when it comes to toxicity? is it just about how thick you want it?

which parts can be done safely without a gasmask?

is concrete bonding additive the same as an acrylic copolymer?

when your adding your tile grout, do you need to cure each layer for a couple weeks or can you add all layers then let the whole thing cure for a few weeks?

p.s. that tree root looks amazing.


----------



## HX

pilo0024 said:


> so as i take it, when you mix tile grout with copolymer, the ratio doesn't really matter when it comes to toxicity? is it just about how thick you want it?.


Ed suggests earlier in this thread that it makes adifference. But the only ratio the binder makers mention is the ratio their product is mixed with water.
So to be ultra safe, mix it right. Then add grout to desired thickness.



pilo0024 said:


> which parts can be done safely without a gasmask?.


Mixing grout or any other cement product is dusty, but the only bit I use a mask with, is melting polystyrene with heat.



pilo0024 said:


> is concrete bonding additive the same as an acrylic copolymer?.


Acrylic copolymere is a bonding additive.
But all bonding additives are not acrylic copolymeres.



pilo0024 said:


> when your adding your tile grout, do you need to cure each layer for a couple weeks or can you add all layers then let the whole thing cure for a few weeks?.


 You can even speed up drying in between layers with a fan and lay up to four or five layers a day.
Then keep it wet and let it cure for a couple of weeks.


----------



## pilo0024

ah ok sweet thanks for all the clarification. so do both types of concrete bonding additives work for the job?
that is, ones that are acrylic copolymers and ones that aren't.


----------



## HX

I dunno.

Anyone?


----------



## andrew__

Great post 

Would a coating of epoxy eliminate the need for the longer curing time for the grout?


----------



## HX

I guess, in the sense that epoxy would be a hard enough coating, even without grout under it...
But epoxy resins typically harden or cure fully for a good seven days, so it doesn't save that much time for you.


----------



## andrew__

Fair enough, hadn't considered that part of it I guess :wink: might as well just do it right and save some money for a better looking final product anyway.


----------



## kyle1745

HX that stuff is amazing! What are you planning on putting it in?

Also how rough is the grout when you are done with it? or do you seal it with something?


----------



## HX

Thanks, it turned out kinda nice. I'll try and take a few pics up close of the texture and structure of the grout. Next year.

Usage of that christmasboredomkiller is undecided. Playground for honeymooning Atheris squamigeras, perhaps?


----------



## andrew__

Well, started carving out a large structure yesterday, I think I need a sharper knife! The foam hasn't been cutting overly cleanly, I'm hoping that when I take a torch to the thing tonight it'll look cleaner.










Not done carving yet, that top block still needs a lot of work 

I noticed that Rona had a large selection of colours that you can tint the grout with, including reds, browns, green etc. I'm going to be sticking to various greys and just let algae colour it more naturally.

(Oh, and this is for my mom's turtles)


----------



## HX

Just remember that turtles give your landscaping a very serious battering.
If I made a scape for turtles, I'd aim for a groutlayer about 1/4" thick.


----------



## pilo0024

HX what brand of bonding additive do you buy? just curious


----------



## HX

I use Thoro Acryl 60 or Ardex E100.
No idea if anyone sells them in US...


----------



## angelfrg9

:?: 
I am attempting to create a background with the technique discussed here, but lacking some knowledge of the products used, I am concerned with the products I have purchased and was hoping someone could help...but I dont know how to put pictures on a forum???


----------



## angelfrg9

These are the products I purchased:
Thin-set Mortar Admix, ingredients: water, latex polymer
the store's employee told me this was same/similar to acrylic copolymer
Polyblen Sanded grout, ingredients: portland cement, silica quartz, iron oxide, chromium oxide, and red pigment.

extruded polystyrene: Foamula R * it says it is COMBUSTABLE! will ignite, is it still ok to melt to shape or is my PINK(our Home Depot only sells pink foam, funny huh) version of polystyrene not safe to use.

I appreciate any input I recieve, I feel so needy! Checked all local stores here in nashville, tn and no one has the Thoro Acryl 60, or Ardex E100. :?
as I mentioned before I have pics but don't know how to post them.


----------



## HX

Latex it a funny word, it seems to cover all kinds of plasticky materials.

Datasheet of that additive says it contains BUTADIENE STYRENE COPOLYMER. Never heard of such, but it seems to do the same trick as acrylic copolymer. I'd say it works.
Anyone? Ed?

The rest of your materials seem to be right also.
Polystyrene will catch fire in any form, so be ware of it and put the fire out if it starts.
I like pink. No, I love it.


----------



## angelfrg9

Its so great to get help with something not a lot of people know about. 

I read how to upload pics into the gallery and use them, but will spare everyone of the boring supply pics and wait till I have finish a piece of the background. 
I have to do mine in pieces because I am working with a (free) 23 gallon flat back hex and the top has two cross pieces.... stinks, but I will work around them.
HX thanks again. I wondered if you had some sort of resource to get inspiration on the actual shapes of your backgrounds? I am planning on drawing it out today. 
If anyone wondered, my tank is for a Barking tree frog, a green tree frog, and a mystery (possibly a white-lipped tree) frog. 
I have never been so anxious, excited, and scared of a project in my life!


----------



## DF20

acrylic polymer where can i get it? lol home depot?


----------



## angelfrg9

*A learning experience!*

For those of you who have not yet made your first vivarium, here is a piece of advice: 
If you spend an entire week creating a fake rock background, then your false bottom, make a water feature, then decide it is time to silicone your background in cause everything looks good........PLEASE TEST YOUR WATER FEATURE BEFORE YOU SILICONE!!!!! 

I thought I was well on my way of finishing this viv, and discovered (I am sooo embarassed) that you cannot create a (slanting, my hairbrain idea) false bottom that is the same level as your water feature (pool) because in order to have enough water in the so called pool, the water level is flooding your false bottom. *the idea was that the pool would drain into the bottom along with the extra water from the false bottom and all run back through the pump for the waterfall.
Such common sense, but it didn't seem a problem when I first planned it out. I guess I am not an engineer!
Its not going to be pretty trying to fix this...
I guess sometimes the worse mistakes you make are the ones you learn from. 
I fear for my sanity!  :x


----------



## angelfrg9

*My first viv is done!!!!*

I finished reworking the false bottom, and I am done! Yay! I hope it will be homey to my lil froggys. Let me know your thoughts.... I am proud, and I know it isn't perfect. Thanks to all the members who created build journals and gave valuable advice. Now I just have to wait for a few weeks before I add the frogs just in case the chemicals aren't out.... it will take me that long to clean up the mess I have made in my apartment creating this viv. 
I feel I am talking to myself! :lol:


----------



## pilo0024

that's your first viv? looks nice. i'm still planning out my first one. for your rock background, did you use the polysterene/tilegrout/concrete bonding adhesive technique?


----------



## angelfrg9

Yes, I used Polyblend sanded grout, Thin-set Mortar Admix, Quickcrete liquid cement color-black, and Owens Corning extruded polystyrene (FoamulaR 150). If you use the liquid cement color, only use a tiny lil bit until you know it won't just cover everything black....I had to redo one of my sections after mixing too much color. 

Not sure how long I should wait to put frogs in, so I am gonna wait another two weeks to be sure.

Would be happy to help if I can in any way.


----------



## pilo0024

so thin-set mortar admix, what's that stuff? where'd you pick all that stuff up from? oh and how much does it run?

Kev


----------



## ProjectReptile

I've got a question for the pro (HX) if he's still reading this thread. I'm having trouble with my current project using this technique. It's coming along MUCH better than my old one though, so any progress is good progress I suppose. Right now, I started by coating the sculpture with a thin (watery) layer of light grout. Upon drying, I coating again with a little bit thicker coat of light color. Now, I just applied a thin (watery) layer of medium shading to the dry light layers. My problem came here, when I began to 'wash away' some of the darker color from the hightlights, it seemed to wash away the original light layers too... right down to the blue foam. Now, I let the previous layers dry, but not cure (meaning a week or more of constant dampness). Should I have let the light colored layers cure all the way before moving to the next shade? I thought I recalled you saying you just dry the grout between layers. What do you think I'm doing wrong? Possibly washing with too much water or too much brush-pressure? Any info would be great! Thanks! (P.S.- I'll get some pics up if you need them)


----------



## jdogfunk99

*Re: A learning experience!*



angelfrg9 said:


> For those of you who have not yet made your first vivarium, here is a piece of advice:
> If you spend an entire week creating a fake rock background, then your false bottom, make a water feature, then decide it is time to silicone your background in cause everything looks good........PLEASE TEST YOUR WATER FEATURE BEFORE YOU SILICONE!!!!!
> 
> I thought I was well on my way of finishing this viv, and discovered (I am sooo embarassed) that you cannot create a (slanting, my hairbrain idea) false bottom that is the same level as your water feature (pool) because in order to have enough water in the so called pool, the water level is flooding your false bottom. *the idea was that the pool would drain into the bottom along with the extra water from the false bottom and all run back through the pump for the waterfall.
> Such common sense, but it didn't seem a problem when I first planned it out. I guess I am not an engineer!
> Its not going to be pretty trying to fix this...
> I guess sometimes the worse mistakes you make are the ones you learn from.
> I fear for my sanity!  :x


Well if it's any consolation, you may have saved me from making the same mistake!


----------



## HX

Well, PR, could be one of the following: either there's not enough acrylic in your mixture to keep it together after drying OR it hasn't dried thoroughly...

You might want to try and let it cure for a day or so before doing the "washing" bit...

If that don't do it, then there's something wrong with the grout you're using?


----------



## ProjectReptile

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... I think i see what I did wrong. I was under the impression that the washing was done when the whole thing was still wet and sloppy. The newest layer of medium color must have gotten the bottom layer a damp and limber again and some if it rubbed off. I will do the washing after a day or two next time. PLUS, I don't think I used enough acrylic. I think you said you almost use 50/50 with water, I know mine was less than that. Anyway, here is a pic:


I don't know, maybe I'm just being too hard on myself. Usually I am my own worst critic. Here is the piece, made to fit an Exo-Terra 24x18x18:











And here is a close up of the problem. By the way, this is take with the medium color layer half dried:










...hope it helps!


----------



## HX

Yep, that's the reason, then.

The "washing" of the whole decoration refers to the final shading of the whole thing. I do it with very watery black or very dark grey mixture. The goal is to make the dark colour stay in nooks and crannies, but wash it away from almost everywhere else.
And, as you already understood, it's definately done after the whole thing has dried up.


----------



## ProjectReptile

Thanks for the help HX, I (and alot of us on here) owe you big time! For me, this is kind of the 'next step' in naturalistic vivarium building. Although it might take a bit longer than the spray foam and silicone method, I think this is less of a hassle and far more rewarding in the end product. Eventually, I'd like to dabble with combining the two techniques.

My final question (hopefully) that I'll bug you with, is about the three different shade grouts. I was wondering why you start with a light color then put the medium over it? It seems as if the original light color is covered over completely never to be seen again; leaving the medium and dark to be the only visible shades. Do you have any of the 1st light shade visible in your finished products, or does it only pop-up when you sand or something??


----------



## HX

ProjectReptile said:


> Do you have any of the 1st light shade visible in your finished products, or does it only pop-up when you sand or something??


Yes, you've got it.
I only do it to get it pop up from the outmost, sanded bits.
It gives a nice natural, worn out touch to it...


----------



## Nick K

I'd like to thank you for making all your posts and explaining in detail all the techniques you have used. Right now I am working on my 3rd set of rocks using some of your techniques... still a bit rough around the edges but definitely seeing an improvement in my own skills.


----------



## HX

Glad to hear someone is inspired by this.

Be sure to show us your work when you're ready.


----------



## Nick K

Before I actually put this in a viv I would like to make sure my thinking about several basic factors is correct. or incorrect. I was trying to determine toxicity of different things in building materials.

My basic process was, for cement products to find what they used as a pigment. My feeling is that cement is basically chemically inert when it cures completely (thus everyone here using cement based products like grout in construction). question then being, colored additives and what they have in them. I used the product sheets/msds from the manufacturer as well as some times writing to the manufacturer to find out this information. my working knowledge of chemistry is basic but enough to know the basics of some toxic substances, and the concept of water solubility, etc. enough that I am not a complete dumbass. but again, I am posting to confirm whether or not anyone else has experience in this.










This is going to be part of the detail in the viv I am making. It is basically a combination of portland cement based products (grout), cement additives (in this case the redish color is from additive based on iron oxide.) The teal color is from acrylic paint. I had a chemist friend of mine look up and tell me exactly what was in it (there is an artist handbook which details the exact chemical compound) but for the life of me the name of the compound escapes me - I know its pb36 based off oxides of chromium and cobalt but I dont know the specific chemicals off the bat. Anyway, we determined that it is nontoxic and relatively insoluble in water. The various reds and yellows OTOH were basically off limits, unfortunately. I could not find one that I thought would be acceptable.

I would like to know whether or not there is any other due diligence I can do to determine if something is going to be bad for the viv. I would rather re-make these than have them kill the plants or frogs though I am pretty confident they are OK.

Here is the next step, this will be part of the center piece for the hex (its actually bigger now I added onto it  ). I still have to make a partial back wall. >:[]


----------



## Tatooineboy

Maybe this is my newbies showing thru, but if you used anytype of arcylic paint, couldn't you just seal it with a nice coat of poly? Wouldn't that seal the paint?

That looks awesome, btw! Please keep us posted on your progress


----------



## Nick K

You mean polyurethane? well, the acrylic has been mixed into the grout. I think sealing it with something like epoxy would definitely help if it were toxic, but I don't think it should be a problem. I'm trying to avoid rocks that are shiny if I can.


----------



## Tatooineboy

IS there a difference between the different colors of the styrafoam? Blue, pink, white?


----------



## pa.walt

i'm pretty sure it's just who makes the stuff. dow has there color and so on. i coud be wrong.
also has anyone ever tried florist foam bocks. i understand that they are small but just in case you might want to make a small rock.
walt


----------



## MattySF

Those ruins are gonna look SWEET!


----------



## Tatooineboy

Hey everyone!

I just bought some white styrofoam and cut it up, then test painted on some basic grout. It doesn't take much to dry in this dry heated apartment I have, so, it shouldn't take too long to cure.

The acrylic additive only came in the 2.5g bottle, which I didn't feel the need to get. We'll see how well this holds without it. Its the sand-grout, which is suppose to hold better?

I also made some clay sculps and poured some latex into one of them. So, we'll see how those turn out.


----------



## Tatooineboy

Okay. I made a head out of clay for the my viv, then let it dry. Last night, I applied a heavy coat of grout to it then let that dry out by the heater for the day. I just went over to it and when I touched it, the portions where the grout was applied the most broke-off, leaving a much thinner layer under it.

Is that suppose to happen?


----------



## HX

Making thin coatings with cement _without any binder_ and _drying_ them out with a heater...?
I would say yes, a break-off is what is supposed to happen.


----------



## Tatooineboy

Great!

Well, not really. I suppose I'll have to get that binding stuff. I hope I can find it in a smaller amount. They only offer it in 2.5g now


----------



## Tatooineboy

Would it be possible to make an mold of this in clay, then use GS to make a cast?

This is made from hydrastone.


----------



## HX

Tatooineboy said:


> Would it be possible to make an mold of this in clay, then use GS to make a cast?


I don't think you can very succesfully make a hard (clay) mold out of that piece. You can't separate the mold of the piece when it's dry.

You need to make the mold with a flexible material.

One route for you could be the way this site describes:

http://jyrkiboy.aqua-web.org/

The molds made by his method can be cast with grout/cement binder mixture. His material, Sika Topseal, actually is pretty much the same stuff: Portland cement and acrylic polymere.


----------



## tzen

> I applied a heavy coat of grout to it then let that dry out by the heater for the day. I just went over to it and when I touched it, the portions where the grout was applied the most broke-off, leaving a much thinner layer under it.
> 
> Is that suppose to happen?


There are 2 seperate things that can happen to cematacous grouts: They dry and they cure.
Drying happens as moisture evaporates. Using a heater hastens this process.
Curing is a chemical process that happens only in the prescence of water. It is what gives cemantacous products their strength.

If you rapidly dry grout, you don't get a full cure, and you get a weak final product that cracks and breaks off easily.
If you slow the drying process, such as by daily spraying down with water or lightly wrapping it in plastic, you get a strong final product.

How long things take to cure depend on the product used.


----------



## Tatooineboy

tzen said:


> I applied a heavy coat of grout to it then let that dry out by the heater for the day. I just went over to it and when I touched it, the portions where the grout was applied the most broke-off, leaving a much thinner layer under it.
> 
> Is that suppose to happen?
> 
> 
> 
> There are 2 seperate things that can happen to cematacous grouts: They dry and they cure.
> Drying happens as moisture evaporates. Using a heater hastens this process.
> Curing is a chemical process that happens only in the prescence of water. It is what gives cemantacous products their strength.
> 
> If you rapidly dry grout, you don't get a full cure, and you get a weak final product that cracks and breaks off easily.
> If you slow the drying process, such as by daily spraying down with water or lightly wrapping it in plastic, you get a strong final product.
> 
> How long things take to cure depend on the product used.
Click to expand...

Ah, got it  Thanks for explaining it to me. Makes sense now.


----------



## ProjectReptile

Also, about the curing. I believe HX mentioned it in an earlier page, but the grout cures with water, hence the spraying and keeping it damp for a week... but the acrylic fortifier cures with an air drying. Using the acrylic additives, you get the best of both worlds. Between the layers of grout that I would apply, I would let it dry usually over nite... which would cure the acrylic more or less for that layer. Then you add layer upon layer until finished, THEN go through the long wet curing process to cure the grout itself. .... This is, of course, if I followed HX's process properly.

Also, I found large bottles of the acrylic fortifier at Lowes at the begining of the isle where they sell the bags of concrete and such. The stuff I use is actually for concrete and kind of looks like watery milk.


----------



## ProjectReptile

Also, btw. I wanted to show this to you HX as I'm not sure if you saw this in the members vivariums section. Here is the finished product of my coniferous forest tank, with the background being made using your technique. Thank you much for sharing with us!


----------



## HX

Allright!

I didn't see it there, so thanks for showing it here, too. Very nice.
The next thing you are going to come up with is that you don't want the vegetation to grow and fill the whole thing and cover your stonewall...

Nice, very foresty feeling to it.


----------



## Tatooineboy

Beautiful work!

I'll see if they have smaller amounts of a different type of liquid to mix w/ the conrete.


----------



## HX

A bit more inspiration, I hope.
Acouple of pics of a 'scape in a terrarium (out of use at the moment...).



























well, a paludarium, actually...


----------



## jdogfunk99

Beyond amazing. You could work in a museum building pieces. You should seriously quit your day job and start selling these.


----------



## pilo0024

HX i wish i could tour your house. that is so sweet. if anyone else has pics with this method, please post em.


----------



## Nick K

I'm wrapping up my first big project...should be done with the rocks in the next week and the whole thing should be up and running. One thing I gotta say is that you definitely improve the more you do it so if you're interested I'd suggest doing several just for practice. It's tons of fun though, can't wait to start my next one @[email protected]


----------



## Arienette

Hi everyone!

This topic has really inspired me, and I'm almost done with a background for an exo-terra viv (for D. aratus.) Hopefully it will look more realistic than the styrofoam background it came with  .

I have a question about epoxy: are they all created equal? I know nothing about it...is there a different formula for sealant epoxy vs. bonding epoxy, or are all epoxies used mainly for bonding? I bought Loctite "Quick Set" (5 min.) epoxy, does anyone know if this will work to seal cement made backgrounds?

Thanks!
Andrea


----------



## JoshH

Arienette said:


> I have a question about epoxy: are they all created equal? I know nothing about it...is there a different formula for sealant epoxy vs. bonding epoxy, or are all epoxies used mainly for bonding? I bought Loctite "Quick Set" (5 min.) epoxy, does anyone know if this will work to seal cement made backgrounds?



Well, epoxys come in many types and are used for lots of different things. THe type you got as well as most of the ones that come in tubes are usually used for bonding. I would not use any of those to seal anything in the terrarium. The ideal kind would be a two part epoxy paint that is designed for drinking water tanks or marine applications. But there are only a couple that are definately animal safe so tread with care!


----------



## DePastino

JoshH said:


> The ideal kind would be a two part epoxy paint that is designed for drinking water tanks or marine applications. *But there are only a couple that are definately animal safe* so tread with care!


Hey all, first post here.

What are the "couple" brands that are safe for animals?


----------



## DePastino

Also, I read this entire thread and did not see this mentioned in regards to finding extruded polystyrene. The most important quality of the foam is not the color, it's the _density_.

When calling stores, ask what the density of the foam is. It needs to be at least *32kg/m3 *(kilograms per cubic metre). This is the minimum density needed for projects like this.


----------



## ProjectReptile

Just sharing my latest project using HX's technique. It's a self-contained water fountain that I put in a 12x12x12 Exo-terra that is housing baby crested geckos. It takes time and alot of mistakes, but I'm slowly getting better!


----------



## daemonfly

DePastino said:


> Hey all, first post here.
> 
> What are the "couple" brands that are safe for animals?


A very common U.S. -available safe epoxy is West Systems epoxy. This is what many saltwater reef keepers use in their tanks. http://westsystem.com/ Not sure where to buy it.


----------



## HX

I have used several epoxy resins in terrariums and aquariums. Never had a proplem with any of them.

Technical data stating that they are toxic usually applies for the resin as it it sold, i.e. the components before they have reacted. After curing (the longest curing period I've seen was two weeks), majority of them are safe and nothing solves to water.
But as always, better safe than sorry...


----------



## reptileink

ok, so to break down this entire process for a dummy like me:

1. Sculpt the foam
2. Apply a thin layer of grout with an acrylic polymere
3. Let this dry overnight
4. Apply a thicker layer of grout 
5. Let this dry overnight
6. Apply a possibly final layer
7. Keep wet for a month? 
8. Apply final wash
9. Apply resin(optional)
10. Let resin dry(for how long)

Also, can I just fill the aquarium with water to "keep" wet, then just drain it a month later? Would this be too much water?


----------



## HX

reptileink said:


> ok, so to break down this entire process for a dummy like me:
> 
> 1. Sculpt the foam
> 2. Apply a thin layer of grout with an acrylic polymere
> 3. Let this dry overnight
> 4. Apply a thicker layer of grout
> 5. Let this dry overnight
> 6. Apply a possibly final layer
> 7. Keep wet for a month?
> 8. Apply final wash
> 9. Apply resin(optional)
> 10. Let resin dry(for how long)


Well, yes, I suppose cyberppl are too lazy to read this thread through and gather the info for themselves...

If I was to make a list of the process, it would look like this:

1. Figure out the mass you want the scape to be.
2. Glue together enough (= too much) foam to form the mass.
3. Sculpt desired shapes out of the foam.
4. Apply a medium-thick coat of grout with a-p. Thicker tends to stick to the foam a bit better than very thin.
5. Carve out some of the grooves and cracs you wish the final scape to have _while the coat dries up_. The coat dries up first where it is proud and last from nooks and crannies. Take advantage of this and achieve a naturelike result.
6. Let it dry out. A-p dries out and holds the layer together while you apply the next...
7. Repeat steps 4-6 with a thinner coat as many times as it takes to get the scape you want. I use a fan to dry it up faster in between layers.
8. Do the final shading with very thin black. Apply a coat and then "wash" it away from the proud parts, leaving the shy parts darker. I sometimes spray the scape with just acrylic polymere thinned with water after this to "fix it".
9. Let dry completely (a-p needs to dry out to cure).
10. Keep wet (cement needs to be wet to cure). 2-4 weeks is usually enough.
11. If you want to, then epoxy the whole thing. But it is not necessary. In aquariums, perhaps, but in terrariums I don't do it.
A typical curing time for epoxy resins is around a week.



reptileink said:


> Also, can I just fill the aquarium with water to "keep" wet, then just drain it a month later? Would this be too much water?


Sure, you can. Some white stuff tends to stick to the glas while it cures, but it comes off with some scraping. Change the water a couple of times. I don't think there is such thing as "too much water".

Thanks for your interest.


----------



## reptileink

oh, I read the whole thread, just trying to sum up the GALLONS of information invested in this thread so it's clear to my own mind.


----------



## HX

Hey, sorry.

I didn't mean my reply to be offensive at all. It came out wrong. I ment the reference to us cyberppl to be a joke sort of a thing. 
As you have noticed, I'm not writing on my mother tung.

Thanks.


----------



## HX

For inspiration, another scaped setup I found cleaning up the house a bit:








The shades are there for scale. The tank is 60 x 80 cm footprint and 105 cm high.
Thanks.


----------



## DrSalsa

Absolutely Fantastic Thread!
I'm working on some fake rock following everyone's advice, and just have one question: I've managed to find coloured grout, but cant find any powder colours to add to it (for shading), could I use acrylic "finger" paints added to the mix? 

Cheers,

Nik


----------



## onefstsnake

Paint it afterwards.


----------



## HX

DrSalsa said:


> Absolutely Fantastic Thread!
> I'm working on some fake rock following everyone's advice, and just have one question: I've managed to find coloured grout, but cant find any powder colours to add to it (for shading), could I use acrylic "finger" paints added to the mix?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nik


Buy a small amount of black grout.


----------



## DrSalsa

OneFstSnake and HX, Thanks for the advice. 
I guess I'll have to get some black grout then, and mix them to get the shading right...
Got all the polystyrene carved out, and cant wait to start with the grout coating!!! Will post pics soon...


----------



## onefstsnake

definately do alot of thin coats. a few of my "cliffs" have a few spots that are chipping. Those pieces only had 2-3 coats.

Im wondering how to attach these to my tanks... :|


----------



## Vinicam

Really sorry for my dumbness, but i can't understand what is this acrylic polymere added to the grout. I have a poor english and can't find a equivalent to that... So, this is the problem.

The a-p is what you use to paint the coats? Is that? Or you use another type of paint? Can't understand that yet... :s

And... You recommend some type of tutorial, guide or any type of hint for painting those rocks?



Well, sorry again for that...



> 1. Figure out the mass you want the scape to be.
> 2. Glue together enough (= too much) foam to form the mass.
> 3. Sculpt desired shapes out of the foam.
> 4. Apply a medium-thick coat of grout with a-p. Thicker tends to stick to the foam a bit better than very thin.
> 5. Carve out some of the grooves and cracs you wish the final scape to have while the coat dries up. The coat dries up first where it is proud and last from nooks and crannies. Take advantage of this and achieve a naturelike result.
> 6. Let it dry out. A-p dries out and holds the layer together while you apply the next...
> 7. Repeat steps 4-6 with a thinner coat as many times as it takes to get the scape you want. I use a fan to dry it up faster in between layers.
> 8. Do the final shading with very thin black. Apply a coat and then "wash" it away from the proud parts, leaving the shy parts darker. I sometimes spray the scape with just acrylic polymere thinned with water after this to "fix it".
> 9. Let dry completely (a-p needs to dry out to cure).
> 10. Keep wet (cement needs to be wet to cure). 2-4 weeks is usually enough.
> 11. If you want to, then epoxy the whole thing. But it is not necessary. In aquariums, perhaps, but in terrariums I don't do it.
> A typical curing time for epoxy resins is around a week.


----------



## HX

Vinicam said:


> Really sorry for my dumbness, but i can't understand what is this acrylic polymere added to the grout. I have a poor english and can't find a equivalent to that... So, this is the problem.
> 
> The a-p is what you use to paint the coats? Is that? Or you use another type of paint? Can't understand that yet... :s
> 
> And... You recommend some type of tutorial, guide or any type of hint for painting those rocks?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, sorry again for that...


The polymere is an additive used with cement products to strengthen it.
It is really helpful when you are using very thin layers of cement-based products.

The colour in my system is from the grout. Grouts are made in dozens of colours and can be mixed to get any colour you want.

If you want to use paints, then someone else might be better to give you assistance, as I don't know too much about it...


----------



## Vinicam

HX said:


> The polymere is an additive used with cement products to strengthen it.
> It is really helpful when you are using very thin layers of cement-based products.
> 
> The colour in my system is from the grout. Grouts are made in dozens of colours and can be mixed to get any colour you want.
> 
> If you want to use paints, then someone else might be better to give you assistance, as I don't know too much about it...


Well... I discovered that grout isn't too popular here, and the few types i can found didn't have a variety of colors. :/

I can use cement with some paint in it to get a good effect too? Or some another way?


----------



## HX

I don't know if mixing paint in with cement works. Haven't tried.
Some people have used powder colours with cement and succeeded.


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## parkanz2

I've been thinking about doing this for a while and was very excited about finding these forums! 

Theres one question I have about the styrofoam/grout system though. Do you also grout the back of a structure if it going to go up against the glass? I feel like sealing the back which is up against the glass somehow (some coats of grout or epoxy) would be safest as I'm pretty confident that no matter what you do, there's going to be some water seaping back there.

what do you guys think?
max


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## pilo0024

I feel like if you silicone your styrofoam onto the back wall you wont have to worry about water getting back there. Also, water getting back there wouldn't really be a problem would it? You could just seal the edges with your grout as well I would think.


----------



## parkanz2

is their any worry with styrofoam leaching toxins into the water over time? If not then I guess it doesn't matter if water gets back there. That was my only worry.


----------



## pilo0024

Not that I know of. Anyone?


----------



## nathan23

HX,

WOW, YOU DA MAN!!!!!!! Like everyone else is saying, we OWE you BIG time for sharing your knowledge. Thanks... I got a 200 gal tank and will DEFINATELY try this technique to make the background. Okay, the list of materials needed as far as I know are:
- Styrofoam/polystyrene
- Grout (in 3 different colors lighter, medium, dark)
- Acrylic polymer (if the grout doesn't already contain it)
- epoxy (not required)
- silicon (to bond the styrofoam together)

and the various tools you use are:
- knifes and other cutting tools
- blow torch?
- paint brushes
- sand paper
- gas mask, googles, etc.

Are there any items I'm missing?
You mentioned that you glue the pieces of foam before you start sculpting the foam right?
Last question is: do you just follow the directions on the package on how much water to mix with the grout/A-P mixture (the A-P is mixed with the grout right, not applied seperately?), or what is the ratio you use? Or how thick to you want the mixture to be like?
Sorry for the questions, after 24 pages of information, I just want to make sure I get all the materials I need and not missing anything. Thanks again, Hope you are still reading this thread.

Nathan


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## HX

Hi, Nathan. Thank you.

200 gals certainly makes a nice playground for fakerocking. Some serious depth can be made, to the rock.

An item I would add to your list is a soldering gun (Soldering gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). It's very useful in finishing the pre-cut styrofoam.

Yes, I glue the layers of foam together before cutting it. I try to add glue only where I'm not going to cut.

As to the amount of a-p, I can't give an exact measure. But about 1/4 of the amount of water or less is what I propably use.
Thicknes of the mixture depends on the layer. First layers are a bit thicker, the last are thinner. But always a "brushable" mixture. Make a mixture on the thicker side and add water/a-p to make it right for yourself.

Thanks again and good luck.


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## pilo0024

after reading this post many times for inspiration, i have finally started my first rock project. it's going in a 160 gallon vert. I have zero artistic experience so the carving is interesting to say the least. I'll post pics soon. Thanks for the help to all who have been contributing to the post.


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## Nillocean

Anyone know of a grout (hopefully found at Home Depot or Lowes) that doesn't contain a mold inhibitor? Many of the grouts I have found contain these chemicals ( which I have heard are very bad for PDFs). Also, anyone know the name of a "acrylic copolymer mix" for the grout? As no one at either home center seems to know what I'm talking about.


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## Nillocean

hello...hello...hello, is there anybody in there? can anybody hear me...dah-da dah...da-da...da-dah


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## melas

7th picture down . . . 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...-latest-rock-wall-tank-18x18x24-exoterra.html

this is what I use . . . no mold inhibitors. it's mostly just portland cement and it has some kind of elasticizer (sp) in it . . .


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## Nillocean

Heya Melas,

Ya i saw your awesome work in that post a while ago but i cant seem to find that stuff at Lowes or Home Depot. Boulder, CO sucks for selection in any product that you can think of. I'm gonna probably drive down to Denver and see what i can find there. Nice work by the way. What are you keepin in there?


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## Corpus Callosum

Has anyone considered using (concrete) nylon fibers mixed in the first layer to prevent cracking down the line?


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## melas

Nillocean said:


> Heya Melas,
> 
> Ya i saw your awesome work in that post a while ago but i cant seem to find that stuff at Lowes or Home Depot. Boulder, CO sucks for selection in any product that you can think of. I'm gonna probably drive down to Denver and see what i can find there. Nice work by the way. What are you keepin in there?


Oh yeah I just looked back at my thread and realized I actually replied to you several times . . . haha! Try this link - there are lots of types of thinset and mortars - a lot of them do not have mold inhibitors - also there are lots of acrylic polymer additives etc on this page as well. I'm sure someone is selling this stuff out your way! Good luck! PS - I am keeping my breeding pair of Azureus in that tank. I was going to put the leucs in there but decided to give them the my original "rock" (bigger) tank!

LATICRETE® International > Homeowners > Products > Premium Latex Mortar and Thin-Set Mortars


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## pilo0024

After looking at several cement based mixes, I ran into a couple questions. Hopefully HX is still reading this thread. If any one can shed some light on it, I'd appreciate it.
There are two main types of grouts that I found: Polyblend, and Mapei Keracolor. They both have polymers in them, so I assume none need to be added. Polyblend didn't say, but the Mapei Keracolor stressed that it should not be cured damp. It did also say that once fully cured after 21 days, it can be fully submerged.
Here's part of what Keracolor said under "Uses" on the product sheet

"• For application in submerged conditions (swimming pools, spas,
water features and fountains), once fully cured (after 21 days)"

So they're saying to cure it dry, and then after 21 days it's safe under water, for human contact any way.
Should I follow that and cure it dry, or do I cure it damp regardless of what it says?
If cured damp, will it still be better to do for our purposes since they probably don't test it for animal safety?
I guess I'm really just wondering if there is any advantage to curing a product like this damp, or if it will negatively affect the curing instead.

side question: what's the difference between sanded and unsanded grout?

thanks


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## HX

It all makes sense.

The lengthy time for drying is due to the fact that when tiled, grout dries out very slowly. There's a lot of water in the tiling plaster and it all dries through the very narrow exposed grout only.

But the basis is the same, polymere needs to be dried and cement needs to be cured wet.

I would guess that "sanded" means grout with larger grain filler sand...? Not sure, though.


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## melas

yeah sanded grout has sand in it and is typically used on floors. It comes out with coarser texture. Unsanded grout has no sand and is usually used for walls, showers/tubs, and counter tops etc. It would just depend on the look you wanted - sandstone vs limestone


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## pilo0024

so the cement needs to be cured wet, then why would they say not to cure it wet? Should I just ignore this and keep it sprayed down anyway?


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## HX

It works the same as any cement+polymere. First dry out the polymere, then cure cement wet.

Ignore their instructions.


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## housevibe7

I personally didn't like the sanded grout... look a bit like wet mud when I was done... not so much like rock even with sculpting it a bit.


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## siubox

HX said:


> It works the same as any cement+polymere. First dry out the polymere, then cure cement wet.
> 
> Ignore their instructions.


could I use quick-dry cement ,it dry within a minutes,and 10minutes if mixes 1:1 with cement
(i am not sure it have polymere but instruction says it is use to fast fix the holes cracks etc)


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## HX

siubox said:


> could I use quick-dry cement ,it dry within a minutes,and 10minutes if mixes 1:1 with cement
> (i am not sure it have polymere but instruction says it is use to fast fix the holes cracks etc)


Those quickies have some sort of catalyst mixed into them. I have no idea if they are safe or if there are one or many kinds of catalysts.
I'm sure there are quick-dries both polymere modified and not. Adding some never hurts...

Anyhow, you have to get data of the particular product you use.

Another thing is that even though they harden very quickly, they still take a lot more time to cure completely.


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## siubox

I cannot get grout with acrylic copolymer ,so the dealer give me some additive fibre (something like thread of tinny hair about one cm long) and suggest me to mixed it with water and cemment，and say it would strengthen the cement layer,would it work?the polymer you use is thread like and liquid like?


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## HX

Fiber is a different supplement. It does strengthen any cement-based - or any other for that matter - material, but in a very different way from polymere. Polymere is usually liquid, sometimes powder that melts into water first but after drying doesn't melt again.

Fiber put into first layers is ok, but I'n not sure how it works with the final layers that tend to be thinner or more watery.


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## siubox

*Re: Making Fake Rocks with grout including mold inhibitor*



Nillocean said:


> Anyone know of a grout (hopefully found at Home Depot or Lowes) that doesn't contain a mold inhibitor? Many of the grouts I have found contain these chemicals ( which I have heard are very bad for PDFs). Also, anyone know the name of a "acrylic copolymer mix" for the grout? As no one at either home center seems to know what I'm talking about.


I cannot find grout without mold inhibitor in h.k.,can I use them?what is the main problem if I use grout with mold inhibitor ,is it harm to the living things or prevent the mosss live on the fake rock? I am nervious to know because i urge to start my project (4ft-4ft =16sq ft rock wall)


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## siubox

*Re: Making Fake Rocks with other cemmenting materials*

I find a cementing materials called CERMIPLUS (use to cemment rocks,bricks) work with ordinary cements made in france (brand name DESVRES) its mainly contents are "white or grey cementing materials,sand with specific particles size,re-dispersible resins,various cellulose and other types of adjuvants that ensure regular setting and bonding power."
But without limestonethat harm to hunman skin.Could I use it (or add with cements)to make fake rock instead grout with polymere?


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## siubox

if I like to stick a few layers of foam together to form a structure (e.g. a 3 dimension pool),are there better cementing glue other than silicon


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## parkanz2

siubox said:


> if I like to stick a few layers of foam together to form a structure (e.g. a 3 dimension pool),are there better cementing glue other than silicon


I use hot glue which I think is fantastic. It sets up really fast and allows you to move on with the project quickly.


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## melas

be sure to use the non-toxic glue sticks! I think most are by default but it should say on the bag somewhere - the last bag of sticks i bought had it printed very small on the back of the packaging. . .


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## yager

Hi everyone this is my first post, I have also been lurking on this thread for some time and wanted to show my first attempt. I was kinda going for the lace rock/lava rock effect. Its for a ten gallon and is sitting currently in a twenty high. I still got some work to do on it but you get the idea.


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## yager

These styrofoam blocks were just glued together using liquid nails and then carved with a nife. Then covered with laticrete black grout. I think i need to do a lighter wash though with a gray grout for the outer edges or maybe an acylic paint for a more realistic effect. What would you guys use any suggestions?


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## xm41907

Welcome! That rock looks nice. I will be working on a lava rock look myself soon. How many coats of the grout have you used?


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## yager

I did the single rock you see there first. I used about 3 coats. A very watered down one that enabled the other coats to stick to the styrofoam. On the background i used three and then another to add some texture.


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## sean33

siubox said:


> if I like to stick a few layers of foam together to form a structure (e.g. a 3 dimension pool),are there better cementing glue other than silicon


Would like to have some further dicussion on this subject. 

I saw many of you guys mentioned using Liquid Nails to stick styrene foam together. I found that there are different types of Liquid Nails glue available. The most common type we can get here in Hong Kong is the Liquid-Nails-High-Strength which can bond different materials togehter and is water proof. However there's a quote on the official site states that "Not for use on polyethylene, polypropylene, Teflon, silicone or polystyrene." 
Selleys Liquid Nails High Strength

There is also another glue called Liquid-Nails-Fast which is suitable for bonding styrene foam. However it states that the bond it forms are not water resistant which seems inappropiate for using in a high humid environment.
Selleys Liquid Nails Fast

I would like to know which Liquid-Nails glue you guys are using in the US.

Here in HK there is a styrene foam cement called UHU POR. The bond it forms is water proof but the data sheet states that it is harmful to the environment. Don't know whether it is unsafe only when it is in liquid form or even when it is cured.
UHU - In case of a gluing problem - UHU
http://www.modelfixings.co.uk/msds/UHU Por.pdf


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## yager

this is the liquid nails i used, it says waterproof right on the tube.


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## Gh0stw4lk3r

My first attempt on a fake rock viv 
this is for a 12x12x15 viv


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## Guest

Hello, i have some photos at faux backgrounds i have made off styrofoam and mortar, more inspiration perhaps.


















































































Sorry for opening an old thread.
/nile


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## melas

no problem on the old thread thing! Do you have any info and/or pics on your process


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## Guest

Unfortunately i dont i have that, im not good on taking pictures on my building process, but im on my way to build a new cage any day now, for my newts. And i can post a thread here that shows how i create my faux rocks and the hole paludarium construction, if thats okey in this forum will say? 

By the way, nice faux backgrounds HX!


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## melas

Yes please do! Are you able to describe your method without the pictures?


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## Guest

It will take me a while to describe, but offcurse i can. 

I take it in stepps.

1: I use styrofoam board that i carve and sculpture to get the structure i want. 

2: I mix mortar and perhaps some pigment powder in the mix. 

3: I put a thick layer with mortar on the styrofoam and even it out but still thick (1-2cm)

4: I whait untill the mortar begins to harden a bit, then i work it with a knife and some other sharp tools, so the kracks you se is carved in the mortar.

5: Painting with acrylic paint, but i have a new material i shall use now that i blend with paint powder and put in the mortar mix.

I shall explain better in the thread, my english is not that good hehe.


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## dannyces

heres my first try


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## HX

Finished hardscaping a paludarium:










Fake rock and fake roots, featured in another thread.


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## OH23

HX - It looks awesome !!! cant get enough of your work


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## sandiegoleu

wow, that looks awesome, i want one from you.


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## HX

Thanks, guys.

Here's a bit of ambiance with the first plants and some moss:


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## Cutterfly

Absolutely outstanding!

greets,
CF


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## JoshH

That is the most detailed grout job I've ever seen! Good job!


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## sean33

Totally awsome!! Just can't believe it's made out of foam and grout. Please keep posting all your good works. Thanks!!


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## HX

Thanks, guys. Happy to hear that at least five of the _1K viewers after the last pics_ approve them. Smiley.

After I get this paludarium planted, up and running, I'll redo my old faithful 6 1/2 feet tall paludarium alltogether. The scape, lighting, filtering system, watering, everything. I'm propably also going to get rid of the glass doors. Well, at least the curved shelve in between the aqua-part and the doors has got to go. It blocks the view to the waterline.
There's a pic of it somewhere in the thread, but to remind you, it's this one I'm talking about:










Lighting will be tricky to accomplish.

There's going to be a a nice fake stoning and a lot of fake rooting.
If and when I get around to it, so don't hold your breaths.
Thanks again for the feedback.


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## OH23

HX - I just want to say again that i absolutley love your work.
I actually started to make my own backgrounds for my vivs and terrariums 2 years ago.
and i can say that im still learning and improving by reading other ppl's posts ( like yourself ).
so keep posting pics of your projects, and the least i can do is admire and thank you for the time invested to post pics and "How To" directions over these forum pages.
so keep the pics coming 

P.S- sorry for any grammer or spelling mistakes, english is not my first lang.
here are some of my projects : 

pics 1-3 are of my bearded dragon's terrarium.

pics 4-6 are of my leopard gecko's terrarium.

pics 7-9 are of my red eyed tree frogs viv.

hope you like it .


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## HX

Hey, thanks again, OH23 and thanks for showing us your work. Very nice texture and color on the desert-terrariums.

Is that a self-made tile on the bottom of your leo terra?

Good going, keep it up! And you too, keep showing 'em! Very inspiring.


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## rpmurphey

You might want to contact these guys. They have a waterfall in thier show room and the rocks (river rock) looks real. 

Top of the Reef: Arizona Live Rock, Saltwater Aquariums, Invertebrates, Aquarium Rock, Aquarium Supplies

They can custom make, maybe, anything you want.


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## OH23

HX - thank you for your nice reply 
Yes, it is a DIY tile on the bottom of my leo setup. if you want any more details about the process i'd be more than happy to provide .

rpmurphey - Thanks for the link, these guys do have some nice things.


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## weta

HX that paludarium looks awsome!
can you please post a link to the thread about it you mentioned?


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## HX

Thanks.
The woodfaking thread would be here.


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## Sharper

hello to all, 
Last week i started to build a 3D fake rock background with that kind of blue epoxi panel. I get great results doing the rocks (tomorrow i'm gonna put some pics) however I'm heaving trouble to dispose them all in the back panel. I know that is suppose to imitate the nature (right?) but it's hard cause I have all the rock with the same width. When i look to other's backgrounds i see rocks with different width: some larger and some thinner and I question myself If they glue two of them to make a bigger one.
Another question is if there is a gold rule to make that.
Thank you for your attention


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## Sharper

hello, like I promise you here are the pics of the fake rocks. 
























In the background I just can sobreposse rocks like pic1 because it looks like very uniforme. (not like nature). So my question is how do i do it?
Thanks 
Ps: sorry about my English i'm portuguese ;D


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## Julio

pretty good job on that styro, what did you use to carve it?


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## geckomann

New England Herpetoculture - Paints these are safe non toxic paints


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## Sharper

Hello,
I just used a knife and It seems harder than it realy is.
From what i saw there are 2 basic rules, in my opinion:
- don't leave many sharp hedges because usally in nature that doesn't occur.
- try to make a diversity of cracks/fails in the rocks to "promove 3D".

And another importante thing is that when you start to craft there is a side of the styro that is easy to do it. But then resides my problem: how to assemble all the pieces looking naturalistic?
Thank you.


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## sandiegoleu

How much weight could these background hold? Thinking of adding branches, but I would like to know if added pvc pipe to the center with drasticly increase the strength.


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## HX

HX said:


> Finished hardscaping a paludarium:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fake rock and fake roots, featured in another thread.


Going somewhere, slowly:

























Need rethinking of lighting, not enough of it below the surface. Ideas, anyone?
Thx.


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## Julio

nice planting!


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## weta

HX said:


> Need rethinking of lighting, not enough of it below the surface. Ideas, anyone? Thx.


halogen spots for accent lighting?
tanks looking very good, whats living in it?


----------



## HX

weta said:


> halogen spots for accent lighting?
> tanks looking very good, whats living in it?


I'm under the impression that there are no halogen spots (the 12 volt sort) that produce the right kind of light for plants. The ones that are there, seen in the fts upper edge are just for dawn and dusk.
HQIs run too hot for this tank, since they'd have to be set too close to the plantation on the upper part...
I dunno, I need some sort of PC or T5 lighting with a very tight beam...? I guess I should try bending some reflectors for starters and take my index finger out of my nose for a change.

The front of the airspace is open, so there's only fishies in the 75 gal aquarium-part.

Thanks for your idea.


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## Jonas77

I have some detail questions. I really like the idea of using a thin darker layer at the end and washing off the parts that are not wanted. 

Just for simplicity, say that we use two shades; light and dark. I would have to assume that you have to make the first (light) layers thick enough to stand on its own, without the help of the last (dark) layer, or the washes areas would never get strong enough/thick enough, as they will not get anymore layers?

I was also hoping (I would pray if I wasn't an atheist), that you are from a swedish-speaking part of Finland. That way you could explain to me once and for all what the Swedish equivalent to "grout" is. There ara so many cement based products, the ones with the most colors seem to be "kakelfog" and "klinkerfog". I guess any cement based product would due as I plan to use my own pigments for color.

And... This acrylic polymere additive. If it makes the grout waterproof/water resistant, is it really a good idea to let it dry and cure? Wont that stop you from wetting the grout itself when you want to keep it damp for curing?
I remember using an additive to my mix some 10 years ago, it might have been Sikacim, is that the type of acrylic polymers you talk about? Its kommonly called "cementlim" or "concrete glue"...


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## HX

Hejsan, Jonas. Hur e läget?

I'm not exactly from "the swedish-speaking part" of Finland, but I do swedish to an extent. Well, sorta.
På färjan till Stockholm börjar jag med "jag talar svenska som det våre mitt modersmål"... med de där vackra flickor. Just in case.

Yes, you got it right. The last, dark, shading layer is just for shading, not adding any dimension. The way I usually do it is
1. I let the final (lighter) layer of grout harden a day or so
2. I do the shading with very watery, dark if not black grout. I brush the mixture to the dented parts and then "wash it away" with brush and plain water.
To ease your mind I want to add that you can multiply this as many times as you wish, to get the result you want...
3. After the shading has dried up I spray some thinned polymer on the finished surface to make the shading stick.
4. I let that dry
5. I start watering the finished product and keep it wet for a month or so.


Now: grout is
1. cement
2. sand
3. color(powder)
4. additives

I'm pretty sure the difference between kagelfog and klinkerfog is the grainsize of sand. Kagelfog being the finer, smoother stuff. 0-0,3 mm or so.
Both make great stony, if a bit different looking texture for fake stone
.
Does anyone sell Mira products in Sweden? I'm surprised if not (they are danish).
I have used all of their grouts: Mastic is the finer grout, Rustic a larger grain grout. Supercolour has polymers added and works as fine as the others. I do add some polymere to Supercolour too.

But if you want to tint it yourself, you can use just plain portland cement and the size of sand you prefer. Grout is just that, after all.

As to the polymer, no, it does not make the grout totally waterproof. It does a good job strengthening the layer and attaching color, but it still lets water suck into (as well as out of) the grout. I always use polymer thinned with water (mixed into the grout with water or spraying a thinned polymer) to make sure it leaves a porous finish.
Water always penetrates the finished layer, well: sucks into it.

Sikacim seems to be a catalyst used to make sure cement cures in subzero (C°) temperatures? I can't see a reason not to use it, but I can't say if it makes the finish any stronger, as the polymer additives do.
Try Thoro Acryl 60. Or Ardex P51. I use both with ok results.

In Sweden I think Sika Topseal 107 is a very popular product for fake stone? Very expensive, I hear. Sikatop107 is: portland cement, silica sand and liquid polymer.

Ha det so bra, tackar och pockar.


----------



## Jonas77

Nice to see that Im not the only nattugglan here...


I dont know about the catalytic properties of sikacim, but I know it act as a "glue". It has been quite popular to make "sikacim-backgrounds", just mixing this liquid with peat mulch and sticking it to any background. The peat makes the mixture porous, allowing plants to grow on it, yet the sikacim becomes hard. 
I will look up the products you mention though, nothing wrong with using tried and proven products.

As usual, I cant help fixating on new methods, and one thing that Im thinking of trying is to use a type of sponge (found a rubber type of sponge next to the cements) to try to get small imprints for the next shade to fill into. My idea is that you could do this in steps, and hopefully get a more "granite" kind of look as the lighter grout vill stick out of the darker in countless little circles.

I am also quite interested in developing a reusable mold, I have looked up some interesting products (thats what I do, I research stuff on the net for months and only settle for the best...). 
Ofcourse, making a polyurethane background from a mold is not good enough, and adding grout to the surface afterwards will take away the whole porpose as all fine details will be lost, and youre back to doing it by hand again. 
I do have an idea of applying grout into the mold first, then pouring some kind of molding foam in behind it. The trick here is to get a good stoneish color, and I do have some ideas there too.

I dont know why, but reverse-engineering of "back to nature" backgrounds and such is becoming a fixation for me...


----------



## HX

I just found out that there is a whole bunch of additives Sika calls Sikacim.
Surely, there is a dispersion that works, among them. And surely it works as good as any.

They use sponges to fake stone surfaces in the painting trade. Surely, it works with fake stone, too. Make sure you report the results.

Molding stone is done a lot among aquarists. Somewhere in this thread there's a link to a page that explains a molding method that uses Sikatop107 to make the surface...
Jyrkiboy: Artificial stones
Grout with any "cement glue" works as well.

I would switch the latex glue to molding silicon, if I wanted to do molding. Silicon allows a lot more shapes and structure and still comes off the finished work.
But I keep my motivation up better by carving each background individually.
I have thought about taking a mold of some of my carved backgrounds instead of taking molds from the nature, but have never come up with it.



Sounds like you really do your research before getting into it. Can't wait to see what you come up with!
Please do show your work when you get started.


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## VivariumWorks

Molds help take out the need for having the extreme skill that HX has shown is needed to get it right. Since I lack much of that skill, I go the other way and build up real rocks, fill in the spaces with clay and cast a silicone mold. Then I use a special mix of epoxy, that makes the colors. No painting needed. Just VERY expensive to make. Here are backgrounds from exo-terra, a local texas/australian company, and mine.










I use almost the same method as Back-to-Nature, however my pieces do not need to be hand painted, and are not capable of being produced in bulk like theirs can. Yet.


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## weta

^^ wow that looks very real, what did you use to get that colour and texture?


----------



## VivariumWorks

Texture comes from the molding. A proper silicone mold will pick up your fingerprints off the rocks/clay. 

Color comes from the epoxy. I add colors to the epoxy so that I don't have to paint it after demolding.


----------



## mille981

Here is a pic of a tank I just finished for my basin.

I had done stuff like this before but find the tile grout easier to work with than GFRC.

Thanks HX.


----------



## Julio

sweet Emerald exhibit!!! nice rock work.


----------



## Jonas77

I really like the root part, and the general structure and design of the rock is great. It could use som finetuning with colors, it is a bit monotone as for now.

If that is a caninus it is not an optimal environment. I can recommend my friends new site, Corallus caninus he had 3 CBB clutches this year.

You can also see his setups in these videos (swedish, but still...)
YouTube - MrCaninus's Channel

Great work, I might steal that root-design for sure!


----------



## jpstod

Jonas77 said:


> If that is a caninus it is not an optimal environment.


What do you mean by that?

I took a look at your friend's video...Saw nothing of the Tanks except bland empty tanks with a stick. I Only saw a Snake on a Stick in A Tank with Nothing else in it. Is that what you consider Optimal?


----------



## Jonas77

Look again. Large terrariums with lots of horisontal branches and plants. Thermostats to controll day/nigt temps, automated misting, waterproof lighting, air-switcher to the room for fresher air.

You might miss the nice background, but reptiles like these dont care about those, only the factors that actually affect their lives.

These are arboreal animals, right? It does not matter how much volume or space you have if the animal can't use it. The only real area you can really count as living area for these snakes are their branches. You have two...

You can get all defensive, or you can take advice from prooven keepers of this species.


----------



## jpstod

Jonas77 said:


> Look again. Large terrariums with lots of horisontal branches and plants. Thermostats to controll day/nigt temps, automated misting, waterproof lighting, air-switcher to the room for fresher air.
> 
> You might miss the nice background, but reptiles like these dont care about those, only the factors that actually affect their lives.
> 
> These are arboreal animals, right? It does not matter how much volume or space you have if the animal can't use it. The only real area you can really count as living area for these snakes are their branches. You have two...
> 
> You can get all defensive, or you can take advice from prooven keepers of this species.


Not sure how I am missing those pics but I don't see any of those on his site..I see small pics with a couple of sticks and a few vines maybe.. In the picture You put down as not being Optimal I see plenty of space for the Sanke to crawl around plus other structures where they could crawl also. I see lights outside the Tank. I see plumbing in the Upper corner which I assume is for fogging the Tank

I am not being defensive I was just asking what you consider Optimal..

People will always consider different things better or worse than others. 

Breeders will consider other factors than what a person who showcases their animals along with the Display and not breed.

Again I did not see any of those features in any of the Videos..Just a dark video of a snake close up in one and the other 1 I had trouble loading but will watch again

I am not a snake mind reader so I will not assume it does not bother them to just have sticks to crawl on and hang from. However I can say I see snakes that are more active and seem happier when they have a More Natural setting than an empty box with closet rods to hang onto.


----------



## Jonas77

Look at this
YouTube - MrCaninus's Channel

And tis
YouTube - MrCaninus's Channel

These cages are about one kubic meter. There are lots of branches and they are long. A lot of foliage.

You can say its bland, but you have to differ between functionality and looks. These snakes basically dont "move around" on anything other than branches. Sick snakes, ill somehow, can be seen on the ground or other surfaces.

I know all about breeders, the US have som very good breeders with criminally sickening cages, just to get as much breeding material into as little space as possible. Here is a link to that too
YouTube - BHB rock python

There is a nice industry...

I dont see breeding succsee as being the same as having an optimal environment in most cases. The secret to caninus is a good functional environment though. You cant put these in small boxes like you can with other snakes. So with caninus, breeding success is a good sign of doing something right.

Noone have to take my word for it, but Im telling you that that snake could have a much more optimal terrarium. I get no satisfaction from lying about that.


----------



## jpstod

I found a better link to show off his cages..

Definately a different image than what the two videos that came up on you link.

This link appears to be adult cages
YouTube - MrCaninus's Channel


and this link appears to be juvenile cages 
YouTube - MrCaninus's Channel

You can see that they are not barren tanks in these..plenty of branches, soil, and plants although background free.


----------



## Jonas77

Your swedish is excellent  thosa are indeed adult and juvenile cages, respectively.

He has about ten adults and a lot of juveniles, so these are not all the cages, probably just the most available to shoot at the time.

Edit: I never ment to hijack the thread with this, I consider this my last say in this matter. I only meant well, knowing these snakes are a bit vulnerable when it comes to husbandry. Take my advice or leave it, I wont say any more about this.


----------



## jpstod

I definately agree American Breeder definately less than he does.

I see you beat me to posting better links to his cages..

The first link looked so bland compared to the better links..

and they are beautiful specimens.. I have been Considering getting one because of their colorization and patterns plus they don't get huge.

I have a cage 72" H x 72" W x 30" D. I need to decide what to do with


----------



## jpstod

Jonas77 said:


> Your swedish is excellent  thosa are indeed adult and juvenile cages, respectively.
> 
> He has about ten adults and a lot of juveniles, so these are not all the cages, probably just the most available to shoot at the time.


Actually I just guessed


----------



## HX

mille981 said:


> Here is a pic of a tank I just finished for my basin.
> 
> I had done stuff like this before but find the tile grout easier to work with than GFRC.
> 
> Thanks HX.


Thanks for sharing.

Very nice job with both the stone and the stump. The irregularity makes it nice and natural. You have also filled in with nice masses towards low front instead of just making a plane to the backwall. A lot of people consider it waste of space, but I think it really makes the difference. There is no waste of space, only too small tanks. No pun intended... 
I wouldn't worry about the monotonity of the color of the stone. In terrariums kept humid the grout gets more tones from organic waste/life eventually.
I often find the organic coloring much more naturalistic than trying to add many colors to the grout.

Again, good job.


----------



## Jonas77

Believe it or not, But I started, small scale though. Borrowed a mini terrarium from a friend, I guess he will get a surprise when I give it back...

I will post pictures and methodes later, maybe this night (sweden) or tomorrow, showing the first few steps and materials.

/ J


----------



## Jonas77

Ok, so... Im not sure how to post pictures, but I'll give it a go.

This first project is not focused on the result of the background itself, Im more interested in the process and technique of getting a nice colored surface and structure of the "stone", that is why I have gone for cheaper materials and not really aiming for the "high-end" products perhaps.

Basically I just glued some pieces of cheap styrofoam in place, making a rough estimate of what I might be looking for. I then carved out a structure that I wanted. I was highly inspired by some pictures I have seen here, so don't be offended if it looks like i tried to copy anyone.










I found this product called Hey'di K11. It comes with an acrylic polymer and the product is approved for usage where it is in contact with drinking water (at least in Norway), so it seemed like a safe choise.










I primed the styrofoam with some of the polymere diluted with a little water. I just sprayed it on with a simple spray/mist bottle. The cement (I will just call it cement as it is not quite grout I think) stuck to the styrofoam really well after that, even if I just used a rough brush to brush on a thin mixture as a first layer. 
I also added som red pigment in the mix, just to see the effect, it gave a nice brick colored result. 
I used a fan to speed up the drying a bit.










When dried you can see that some areas are a bit more glossy, that is from a batch of mixture with slightly more acrylic polymeres in it, and the matte areas had a bit less.
The bottle to the left is glögg, or mulled wine - a must this time of year.










Next I made a thicker mix, and just to be able to se a difference between the different layers I added som darker colors. I tried using a cheap acrylic air brush paint I had laying around. 










This mix was stuffed into the deeper and larger crevices only. I choose to do this as one separate step as it is much harder to get in there and I wanted to ensure that these parts got the thicknes and strength that I want. All the carved cracks and crevices were done so excessively, to leave room for a layer of cement.










I bought a nice palette knife for this project. I actually sharpened the sides of it so I could use it to cut the styrofoam as well as shaping the cement and carving it as it started to cure.










On the side I did a test with different mixtures of sand/pigment/polymere and a repetition of those to be wet-cured (those under the plastic), just to see if I can see any differences in strength etc.











While taking these pictures my sweet Sanzinia looked at me like I was crazy, and Im not going to disagree...










Next I will be adding the final layer(s) and trying to get the fine details that I want. As this is such a small scale, the effect of loosing detail in the styrofoam when cement is added is really high, so I ecpect I will have to do a bit ov fine-tuning If I want any details at all.


----------



## kyle1745

So Ive been catching up on this thread...

Isn't the grout a bit rough for frogs? I know people avoid gravel so I'm wondering if this is smoothed out or what.


----------



## Jonas77

Im not sure what you mean with "bit rough for frogs", but I assume you would think it would be rough on their skin or something similar to that?

The thing is that physics appear different to different sized animals. The air a bumble bee flies in would compare to flying in something with the wiscosity of water for us. What makes a rough surface to us does not have to be so to an animal small as a frog. 
I dont think the grout makes a much rougher environment to the frogs than anything that nature could expose them to. 

Hopefully there are not just grout in the terrarium in the end, but other substrates, moss, plants etc. as well.


----------



## kyle1745

Understand and it used to be a no no to use gravel as it was too abrasive and woudl cause wounds on the frogs. 

So I guess would sandless grout be a better option. Im still working on some fake things to attempt this on but am trying to lock down the items I need to buy. The local lowes does not have a lot of options in grout and less in sandless. Im thinking about trying gray with black to see how it goes. I have a decent fake stump started but have not had a lot of free time to work on it. I also need to pickup a torch.


----------



## melas

Kyle I've always used unsanded grout/cement mixtures. The resulting surface is somewhere between limestone and river rock . . . smooth but "bumpy". I've had frogs in these enclosures for over 2 years now with no obvious ill effects . . .


----------



## kyle1745

Im testing out a small piece of foam, so far it looks ok, but I need a way to carve it a bit better.


----------



## melas

kyle1745 said:


> but I need a way to carve it a bit better.


The foam or the grout? I like using a torch (outside or in the garage) on the foam and a dremmel on the cement.


----------



## Sharper

hello, this is the update of the constrution of my 3d background.
1st
glue all the pieces together.








2nd
I used a neutral clay to give a 3d texture and close some gaps.








notice that i have removal parts for the cleaning.








Next step is paint and adding some roots.
cumps.


----------



## Sharper

hi
here it goes:








I hope u like it. I'm gone change the placement of some rots, and i'm adding realistic fake moss cause i'm gone use led ilumination.
cumps


----------



## calvinyhob

melas said:


> The foam or the grout? I like using a torch (outside or in the garage) on the foam and a dremmel on the cement.


+1 on the torch and definitly outside, did a little bit of work inside once during winter and WOAH never again!! 

May have been asked before but what brand are you using matt? The local HD stopped carrying what i have been using and this new stuff is not working to great for me. Just built a new tank and the grout is cracking and ive never had this issue before. 

Also are you using epoxy or what to cover your work?

Sorry if these questions have been asked before but ALOT of pages to read and maybe i should of just PMed you


----------



## melas

No worries! I've actually started a new method - one that I have not yet seen anywhere. I'm currently documenting it - it will be for an african cichlid tank. PM me if you want the details - I don't really want to post it until I finish trying it myself. It's the same method I used on my rock wall backgrounds in my "mini-zoo" . . . it is VERY strong though . . . and cheap! 

What I've been using prior to this though is just a polymer modified floor leveling cement. The brand really doesn't matter - typically they are acrylic or latex - both are relatively inert. I have not sealed any of my walls and so far they are holding very well. I have not noticed anywhere on any of them. In fact my first wall, which is now well over two years old, has all kinds of mosses and other flora growing on which I don't believe would have occurred (to this extent anyhow) if all the pores had been sealed with epoxy etc . . .


----------



## Thundergeck

Great thread, you guys did some beautiful work!
I didn't see this link posted, but this guys website was particularly helpful. He makes videos showing the process step by step. His work is geared more for lizard enclosures but the principal is still the same. There is one video where he made a pretty amazing waterfall which I found very helpful.

Lizard care, and fake rock wall landscapes


----------



## bratyboy2

i just spent about 4 hours reading through the 32 pages and im starting mine tomorrow.


----------



## HX

How are you advancing. Brad?


----------



## Lycosa

This has been one of the most informative threads I've read ever. Unfortunately, a lot of pics are gone since the thread began, but this is some really inspiring work. 

HX, I went looking for this thread after seeing your work on fake roots and reading that thread.

As others have said many times, you should really do it professionally. I've seen less quality work in zoos than you are doing at home.

I'm going to give this and your root idea a try. I doubt I'll get the same results, but I am really inspired to try it.

Many people have done really well using your technique and I hope to join the ranks. Making those backgrounds looks like it really can add to the enjoyment of keeping vivariums.

Again, thanks for sharing all this information and giving me a level to aspire to.


----------



## HX

Thank you. That was a touching set of words.
My pleasure. Happy to hear you're inspired.


----------



## noprince

I agree completely with Lycosa.
But just wondering wether those pitures could be reinstalled.
Or could you do it yourself HX?
The words are just about enough, but the pictures complete it.


----------



## HX

You are too kind.

I'm not sure whether even I have the vanished pics anymore, sorry. I'll see what I can do.

But: we have had talks of a spinoff article with Kyle. I have been occupied with other stuff for awhile, but I think I could be able to live up to the plans during the end of the summer/early fall.

So stay tuned and thank you for your words.


----------



## DrjekyllsReptiles

to secure it under water for a long period of time I would suggest aquarium sealant just stick it down before you fill tank its safe n non toxic for reptiles kutos


----------



## fred

Interesting thread!

We also use epoxy in Holland for terrariums.
This one I build here in Colombia for a nature protection-expo.

grts.


----------



## JoshH

fred said:


> Interesting thread!
> 
> We also use epoxy in Holland for terrariums.
> This one I build here in Colombia for a nature protection-expo.
> 
> grts.


That is top notch....is that concrete/grout with epoxy over it? Or just epoxy resin.....


----------



## fred

Hi JoshH,

Thanks, it is styrofoam (the whole terrarium) with partly a sort of cement we use for bathrooms (don't know if that's grout), and epoxy mixed with different colours of soil like clay and sand.

Also over the epoxy I used a little bit of very fine soil, this allow moss and plants more easy to grow over it.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

The only time I ever used epoxy was pouring it over pieces. How many coats are usually required when painting or doing a roll on, and if doing this over a cement or grout mixture, do you still need to leach the cement?


----------



## fred

Hi brotherly monkey,

I don't know if the question was for me to answer, but yeah, it is very important to clean the tank very well before you put your frogs in.

I would say; try to flush it with water many times during at least one week, or/and leave -when possible- the tank outside in the fresh air for a while.

Don't make the misstake to put your frogs in there to soon..
good luck!


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

I understand that the epoxy would need time to properly cure and off-gas. But I figured doing such a treatment would allow one to get around the need to leach the cement, since the epoxy would be forming a water proof barrier over it


----------



## lukebalsavich

"I understand that the epoxy would need time to properly cure and off-gas. But I figured doing such a treatment would allow one to get around the need to leach the cement, since the epoxy would be forming a water proof barrier over it "

Even if you intend to completely seal the background, I think it is prudent to acid wash or soak the cement before you decide to epoxy it. In the event that the integrity of the epoxy is compromised and the seal you wish to create in using it is broken, it would be best to have done your best to neutralize the situation (literally!). Epoxy is tough, but it can be broken, and with plants growing, movement of a waterfall, etc.. it is not hard to imagine it being compromised in one part of the a large background.


----------



## VivariumWorks

Or you could always add a pozzolan to your concrete. 

Pozzolan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll be carrying a type used for reef ball making on my site as soon as I get it up.


----------



## fred

It sounds logical that the epoxy only need some time and no water to clean it out, first I thought the same because it forms a waterproof skin..

After using the epoxy you can notice a very intoxicating smell in the tanks; depending on the material used together with the epoxy this can be more or less intense. (I've noticed with peat it's very intense, probably has something to do with the acid-level).

When I leave the tanks outside without doing nothing further, it can take a long time (more then one month) before the smell is gone, if I flush it with water one or two times a day, it is gone within one week.

To clean out the cement under the epoxy, is offcourse a possibility, I never do that because I just use a very thin layer of the cement (when I use it), and when in time the epoxy would be broken somewhere, it wil be just very small, and not the total skin coming off at once, so I quess that will not give a big impact.

But if you would use a thick layer of cement, it is something to consider offcourse.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

It's a large front opening viv. So i was basically trying to get around the need to to build something to large enough to emerse it in

But if I'm going to take the time to build the thing in the first place, it's not going to be much more trouble the build a small pond, or tank using some plastic and 2x4s. Especially if it will help with the off-gassing.


PS I wonder if the issue with peat increasing issues with fumes is due to the larger surface from it acting as a sponge


----------



## fred

On request by p.m. here are some pictures of making some fake-rocks.

This is a 8-side terrarium for a conservation-project expo in Colombia.


----------



## OH23

Amazing work Fred !!!
i really loved that 360 deg view vivarium. respect 
thanks a lot for the pics.


----------



## Mworks

Hi Fred,
is that Yellow Lehmanni and Redheads in that viv?

Regards
Marcus


----------



## fred

Hi OH23,

Thanks, it was a bit of a hurry-work; I build the terrarium in about two days (took me a week to get all the materials), some things I would have done a little different when there was more time and better materials to work with..
There's two water-flows going from the top down, but this is not good to see on the pictures. (I didn't make any pictures, just got them from people around when I was working on it).

Hi Marcus,

You see that right; there's 'Redhead', 'Anchikaya' histrionica and 'Yellow' lehmanni in the vivarium.
On the second picture with frogs, you can see all three of them.

These are all c.b. frogs, offspring from confiscated parents who where about to get smuggled some years ago.


----------



## Mworks

Excellent.

It would be very interesting if you could share your experiences in breeding these species, in the frogs and vivs part of the forum so as not to hijack this thread.

Regards
Marcus


----------



## fred

Hi Marcus,

Offcourse I can share my experiences in breeding these frogs, only -like you say- this thread is about making fake rocks. 
Other point is that these frogs are (not yet) legal in the hobby....so I would be helping people who buy illegal frogs, and maybe give others more motivation to do that too..
What I can say, is that there is absolutely no need to let the tads be raised by pumilio's..like you can read in other threads..

I see that i've missed a question from Brotherly Monkey, sorry for that; the epoxy mixed with the peat will not act as a sponge, if you don't put to much peat in the epoxy.
I mostly put one thin layer pure epoxy to close everything if it must be absolutely waterproof, then later the other layers mixed with the soil.

grts,
Fred.


----------



## OH23

Heya Fred,
what kind of epoxy do you use ( brand name also please )?

p.s. for 2 days of work and get this stuning results, i'm --->


----------



## fred

Hi OH23,

I don't know the brand of the epoxy I use here, it's the only one I can find here, probably imported from Korea or China like allmost everything here, and horrible stuff..
I'm sure you have much better epoxy overthere.

I have to use more then I do when I use the epoxy from Holland, but also there it's 3 times more expensive too.

It's best you use the things that people here on this thread allready recommend; they have experience with the materials over there.

With the same method you can also make nice tree-roots (that don't rot) for the terrarium, and lately I created a coral-reef for the Zoo here..(that was really a lot of work, and I'm no coral-expert)..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, and this is important; I read somewhere on this thread (or another one) someone who gave advice about using a gas burner to melt the styrofoam; let everybody please be very carfeull with this, and never use an open flame: in Holland some people got injured and burned because of an explosion.
The materials containing gases which cause the heave explosions with open fire..be carefull with it!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## OH23

Thanks Fred,
For the heads up on the gas burner !
you know, pictures are always wanted  ( you said coral reef ).


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

OH23, though I never used it with any animals, least of all dart frogs, I have used "West Systems" marine epoxy in some small plant enclosures, and a friend has used it to build numerous reptile enclosures for lace monitors


----------



## OH23

Brotherly Monkey, i heard about "West Systems" marine epoxy and know that some of the members here use it, with success, but i'd like to know if any other, more common brands of epoxy would be okay to use.


----------



## VivariumWorks

I use a slow curing epoxy made by a company in Corpus Christi. They are called Dewey Supply. You'll have to call them up to order as they don't have a website. I use their Epo-Bond brand. It has a strong sweet smell but works really well for painting applications as long as you use a thin coat. A thiker coat will show the slightly amber color. I'm going to be carrying this product on my online store when its up as I use it with great results. It doesn't yellow or fade due to UV like polyester resin will.

But as for a local place that you can go to pickup clear epoxy, I've yet to find one.


----------



## OH23

VivariumWorks, thanks for the input. this is very good information that will save me time on finding the right product.
thanks


----------



## pa.walt

about what type of epoxy and your cement question monkey just read or skim over all the posts here. unless you have done this already. it pretty much covers all the different ways it has been done with stuff in the u.s. and in europe. there is alot of different methods the people have used. too bad some of the pics posted are no longer able to be viewed, the pics from hx.


----------



## BlueRidge

VivariumWorks said:


> I use a slow curing epoxy made by a company in Corpus Christi. They are called Dewey Supply. You'll have to call them up to order as they don't have a website. I use their Epo-Bond brand. It has a strong sweet smell but works really well for painting applications as long as you use a thin coat. A thiker coat will show the slightly amber color. I'm going to be carrying this product on my online store when its up as I use it with great results. It doesn't yellow or fade due to UV like polyester resin will.
> 
> But as for a local place that you can go to pickup clear epoxy, I've yet to find one.


I was gonna ask you about your website. It looks great so far, when do you think the tutorial section will be up?


----------



## VivariumWorks

Not soon enough. *sigh* 

Too many things pulling me in too many directions.

I WANT to have it up and done by the end of this month but I'm not putting up something incomplete and half-assed. 

I'm hoping for the site to be a concrete reference for beginners in this hobby as there is none at the moment. Just everyone's personal opinions on the forums with lots of contradicting info. There are only a few posters actually worth listening to, because unless their methods/designs have been replicated MULTPLE times and have been documented in detail, with exact material listings, how can someone trust it? I've already learned many lessons on what NOT to do by following bogus build journals. 

But basically, when it’s ready. Which is more and more each day.


----------



## BlueRidge

I agree.. no need to rush to put up crap. Looks great so far though. I can't wait to dive into your tutorials on how you make such awesome molds. I'm getting ready to make twin 40g verts and I'd love to make some great cast stumps/trees instead of foam/grout.

Great job!


----------



## VivariumWorks

One of the molding methods I have used will be on the tutorial section.

Just FYI though, its not cheep. Mold casting is pretty expensive. The end results are worth while, but its not for the tight budgeted for sure.


----------



## Vajkpapa

Onagro said:


> Does anyone know how to make fake rock for backgrounds? It's not for darts, but it does need to be able to be submerged long-term. Would great stuff work?


Yeah, lot of european like me, use stirofoam tables, cutting the form, cover with concrete, and paint with acrylic paints. It's a link, where you can see a half done background with a small (cca. 50 cm high) waterfall.

Vivarium | Facebook

Ask me on my e-mail address if it's something like you want. I'll explain how to make it. Sorry for my english, I'm a hungarian


----------



## BR5

Incredible work, had to mark for future ref.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

where do most people buy their styrofoam at? I cjhecked the local craft store and it seems surprisingly expensive there.


----------



## pa.walt

go to home improvement/hardware stores for the styrofoam. comes in big sheets. 
like i wrote before just check the earlier posts. some of the questions you are asking where answered in the earlier posts.


----------



## ninjamonster

At my local Home Depot, they have this Quikrete Acrylic Fortifier. Is this the same as acrylic polymer? here's the link: Quikrete 1 qt. Acrylic Fortifier - 861014 at The Home Depot
thanks for your help!


----------



## CoolHandLeucomelas

Has anyone used any smooth-on resins? 

Aquarium Decoration Ideas: Make Your Own Artificial Coral Reefs


----------



## FIT BMX

That stuff looks great! Thank for posting!


----------



## John-Michael

*Re: Rubber rock molds?*



jehitch said:


> For those of us whose sculpting abilities are negligible, is it possible to use the latex rubber molds often sold for model railroad scenery? they are designed for use with plaster, but has anyone ever tried applying a layer of grout, then after it cures, filling in the cavity with GS foam to keep it light?
> 
> Or even filling the mold with GS, then coating the resulting cast with grout?
> 
> ... Just looking for an easy way out of studying geology and learning carving ...
> 
> Jim


I had a class on mold making and casting last semester. Are they latex or silicone molds? Nothing sticks to silicone molds. You can even paint the silicone before casting and the paint will be embedded in the casting material. 
It sounds like a good idea. Casting resin would probably also work well.
John-Michael


----------



## thane

Couldn't find an answer within the thread - does anyone know if moss grows well on these fake rocks?


----------



## JeroenH

Moss grows well on everything as long as it receives enough light and water


----------



## FYr

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but this site Lizard care, and fake rock wall landscapes
and his YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvI2dy8cu4rZk96dDTBKIKg
are awesome! 

I have made fake rock backgrounds for my fish tanks using his methods which are a lot of what's been mentioned here. It's always been pretty simple for me but can time consuming definitely!


----------



## flyfshrmn98

Just bumping to the top since it's great read


----------



## Lisaxaphona

VivariumWorks said:


> Not soon enough. *sigh*
> 
> Too many things pulling me in too many directions.
> 
> I WANT to have it up and done by the end of this month but I'm not putting up something incomplete and half-assed.
> 
> I'm hoping for the site to be a concrete reference for beginners in this hobby as there is none at the moment. Just everyone's personal opinions on the forums with lots of contradicting info. There are only a few posters actually worth listening to, because unless their methods/designs have been replicated MULTPLE times and have been documented in detail, with exact material listings, how can someone trust it? I've already learned many lessons on what NOT to do by following bogus build journals.
> 
> But basically, when it?s ready. Which is more and more each day.


Is it safe to assume this is your website now? Vivariumworks.com

Anybody interested, here is the link to the tutorials page. I'm excited to read over all of these.

http://www.vivariumworks.com/build_journals_and_tutorials.html


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## VivariumWorks

Yea I got it up. More/less. Still a ton I probably need to add to it, but I've focused most of my free time on paintball related stuff for the past few years more so than vivarium. I still make backgrounds and rocks and such.

My custom formulation of silicone putty I've made available on the site. I use it when I go on vacation and extended paintball trips and make molds of various rock formation and trees. The molds can then be used to make low weight replicas. The field grade molding material, Exhibit:MOLD is good for in the field use and to make few molds/reproductions with, but it's not for production scale use. For that you'll need a different material. But for most people's uses, it works pretty well.

But yea, check out the various tutorials and how-to's I've setup on the site. Should give you and idea or two.


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## Lisaxaphona

VivariumWorks said:


> Yea I got it up. More/less. Still a ton I probably need to add to it, but I've focused most of my free time on paintball related stuff for the past few years more so than vivarium. I still make backgrounds and rocks and such.
> 
> My custom formulation of silicone putty I've made available on the site. I use it when I go on vacation and extended paintball trips and make molds of various rock formation and trees. The molds can then be used to make low weight replicas. The field grade molding material, Exhibit:MOLD is good for in the field use and to make few molds/reproductions with, but it's not for production scale use. For that you'll need a different material. But for most people's uses, it works pretty well.
> 
> But yea, check out the various tutorials and how-to's I've setup on the site. Should give you and idea or two.


I am glad you responded. I see a lot of the active members in posts from years ago haven't been pointing for quite a long while, so I am glad you are still here!

I saw your photos of doing the moldings with that green putty stuff, and saw you said it was "Exibit-mold" so naturally I looked it up on google trying to find some, it looks really fun to do. So once again, I am glad you replied, now I know I can get some on your site. Thanks!


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