# posting frogs for sale at frogday



## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I'm still having to delete ads for frogs to be delivered at frogday.DO NOT post ads to be be delivered if you don't have a table or it will be deleted with no reason.It is not acceptable unless you pay for a table like the rest of the vendors.This is a zoo with strict protocols.Thanks you for your understanding.

Lou


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

Is dendroboard affiliated with frog day? I don't see why this is an issue. 

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## Armson (Sep 8, 2008)

Lou, 

Isn't there some way that this could be turned into something good? (i know it's a tad late)

It's really nice to see the show being defended but it seems to me that there is some missing potential.

Lets assume that I have two pairs of frogs for sale, hardly worth buying a table for. Couldn't something be done that would allow me to sell the frogs on the board or at least advertise them and help the show at the same time? 

I could dedicate half the sales of my frogs or commit to some set amount of donation? Pay an advertisers fee? 

There could be an approved buyers list or something. 


-B


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Out of respect for the zoo which has graciously allowed us to use the zoo as a place to have our show they have POSTED some rules for the venue which is quoted here

"Please do not bring any animals into the Zoo with you unless you are a vendor and it is during the designated vendor setup time (Friday from 5pm-7pm & Saturday 7am to 10 am).

As was mentioned the Zoo has a policy of "ABSOLUTELY no pets are allowed in the Zoo," amphibians included. All amphibians for sale will be given a visual inspection by the Zoo's vet, and any that do not look healthy will be asked to be removed from the table.

Please respect the vendors and the Zoo's regulations by keeping any of your personal frogs that may be traveling to NYC with you off of Zoo grounds.

This Frog Day, as far as I know, is the first one to be hosted at a Zoo. This has to the potential to be a fantastic partnership going into the future connecting people with an interest in Zoo's and amphibians with the knowledge base of Vendors who will be selling ethically produced, healthy frogs."

So this being said NO TABLE NO FROG AD for frogday

If you read the thread for frogday you would have read this and other reasons,but this is the main reason.

Thankys again for understanding.


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## Jgraz (Sep 1, 2013)

Im new here so I may be a bit out of the loop. Anyway, I would think that we as a group would want to promote the sale/trade of livestock amongst hobbiest in any way possible. I realize that sponsers pay money for a table and they are still gonna make money that day anyway. Am I wrong? Im a reefer by heart and I personally couldn't imagine having a frag swap without the hobbiest getting involved themselves. Am I wrong in thinking that Frog day is essencially a frag swap for frogs, plants, ect.... I personally would rather get what I want from a hobbiest then pay a retailer for the same thing. That's the way I treat my reef hobby as well.


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## Jgraz (Sep 1, 2013)

Jgraz said:


> Im new here so I may be a bit out of the loop. Anyway, I would think that we as a group would want to promote the sale/trade of livestock amongst hobbiest in any way possible. I realize that sponsers pay money for a table and they are still gonna make money that day anyway. Am I wrong? Im a reefer by heart and I personally couldn't imagine having a frag swap without the hobbiest getting involved themselves. Am I wrong in thinking that Frog day is essencially a frag swap for frogs, plants, ect.... I personally would rather get what I want from a hobbiest then pay a retailer for the same thing. That's the way I treat my reef hobby as well.


Well I gues that answers it


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Jgraz said:


> Im new here so I may be a bit out of the loop. Anyway, I would think that we as a group would want to promote the sale/trade of livestock amongst hobbiest in any way possible. I realize that sponsers pay money for a table and they are still gonna make money that day anyway. Am I wrong? Im a reefer by heart and I personally couldn't imagine having a frag swap without the hobbiest getting involved themselves. Am I wrong in thinking that Frog day is essencially a frag swap for frogs, plants, ect.... I personally would rather get what I want from a hobbiest then pay a retailer for the same thing. That's the way I treat my reef hobby as well.


The 'retailers' are, typically, hobbyists. Regular old hobbyists, with frogs to sell, have purchased tables, sometimes a few to a single table, in order to sell their frogs. It's not fair for others to swoop in and sell their frogs without paying the fees that other froggers have paid. Also, being a zoo, it is important that there be control on the animals that are brought in. There is risk of sick animals contaminating others. That's why there is the rule that animals for sale have to be checked over. If you are sneaking animals in, through the back door, you are putting other animals at risk.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

oddlot said:


> Out of respect for the zoo which has graciously allowed us to use the zoo as a place to have our show they have POSTED some rules for the venue which is quoted here
> 
> "Please do not bring any animals into the Zoo with you unless you are a vendor and it is during the designated vendor setup time (Friday from 5pm-7pm & Saturday 7am to 10 am).
> 
> ...


You say for US to use the zoo. I feel like you are implying frog day and DB are affiliated. 
Why not allow people to advertise frog day hotel pickup.
This is how a lot of hobbyists communicate. Who put you in charge of policing advertisements? Not to pick a fight, but it doesn't seem right to me. I'm not even advertising anything. 
What DB rules are being violated? 

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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Josh ,did you read the post?Matt is a member and has ran frogday a couple of times.These are ZOO RULES!!!!.And I say US because I PAID for a table like the other vendors.If you don't like it get a table.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

oddlot said:


> Josh ,did you read the post?Matt is a member and has ran frogday a couple of times.These are ZOO RULES!!!!.And I say US because I PAID for a table like the other vendors.If you don't like it get a table.


I'm not selling anything. I agree that nothing should be brought into the zoo. But there will be a lot of froggers in town and should be free to communicate and trade with each other. You are clearly abusing your mod powers. 
If no db rules are being broken, why would posts be deleted. Because you paid for a table?
Zoo rules, not db rules. 

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## Jgraz (Sep 1, 2013)

oddlot said:


> I'm still having to delete ads for frogs to be delivered at frogday.DO NOT post ads to be be delivered if you don't have a table or it will be deleted with no reason.It is not acceptable unless you pay for a table like the rest of the vendors.This is a zoo with strict protocols.Thanks you for your understanding.
> 
> Lou





oddlot said:


> Josh ,did you read the post?Matt is a member and has ran frogday a couple of times.These are ZOO RULES!!!!.And I say US because I PAID for a table like the other vendors.If you don't like it get a table.



Ok I now understand why frogs are not permitted to the zoo. Perfectly reasonable. But in what capacity are you acting here? Are you a "mod" making sure all rules are followed and deleteing those that may impact you as a "vendor" or are you a "vendor" using your "mod" powers to delete those threads that impact you. I was just looking at the thread for Frog Day and saw that there are more then a few vendors saying that they will bring frogs that can be outside of the zoo. Why are those deleted as well?


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## frogcrazy (Nov 23, 2004)

So a happy medium would be to advertise frogs for sale at the comfort inn in staton island on sat the 14th. This way it's not braking any of the zoo or vendors rules and everyone is happy and can enjoy the hobby right? I can see both sides of the coin so maybe this can help? It's a great but small hobby so we should all try and work together.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Haha, I can see it now.. Some lonely guy sitting at a table with one frog. Sorry, I'm not picking sides that just made me laugh when I thought about it.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

joshbaker14t said:


> I'm not selling anything. I agree that nothing should be brought into the zoo. But there will be a lot of froggers in town and should be free to communicate and trade with each other. You are clearly abusing your mod powers.
> If no db rules are being broken, why would posts be deleted. Because you paid for a table?
> Zoo rules, not db rules.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2





Jgraz said:


> Ok I now understand why frogs are not permitted to the zoo. Perfectly reasonable. But in what capacity are you acting here? Are you a "mod" making sure all rules are followed and deleteing those that may impact you as a "vendor" or are you a "vendor" using your "mod" powers to delete those threads that impact you. I was just looking at the thread for Frog Day and saw that there are more then a few vendors saying that they will bring frogs that can be outside of the zoo. Why are those deleted as well?





frogcrazy said:


> So a happy medium would be to advertise frogs for sale at the comfort inn in staton island on sat the 14th. This way it's not braking any of the zoo or vendors rules and everyone is happy and can enjoy the hobby right? I can see both sides of the coin so maybe this can help? It's a great but small hobby so we should all try and work together.



Thankyou Frogcrazy,Well said and this is fine,but not "delivery to frog day".This means frogs at the zoo which is not allowed.Zoo Rules not mine.What you guys do at the hotel I could care less about.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

this is being done at a lot of shows. you don't have a table so you can't come to the show to sell a few frogs.
think of it this way. I just paid $100 for a table, I have 4 [email protected] each. but johnny is outside selling patricas for $50. he sells two. $100 for him but $0 for me. those 2 frogs would have paid for my table.
but the idea of saying hey I will be at the hotel and have patricas for sale and can be picked up there is fine by me.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Exactly right Walt.

This is a long time issue that we need to reeducate on with every single national show.

Actually - if local shows asked us to do this type of thing - we'd likely do it for them.

To try and ride the coattails of the vendors who make a show possible is just disrespectful.

s


pa.walt said:


> this is being done at a lot of shows. you don't have a table so you can't come to the show to sell a few frogs.
> think of it this way. I just paid $100 for a table, I have 4 [email protected] each. but johnny is outside selling patricas for $50. he sells two. $100 for him but $0 for me. those 2 frogs would have paid for my table.
> but the idea of saying hey I will be at the hotel and have patricas for sale and can be picked up there is fine by me.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Why don't you guys just set up an official meet at the closest hotel maybe even just in the lobby, and time and post it in the regional area just like all other meetings. 

That would avoid any suggestion that people will be sneaking in and swapping frogs. And would give you all a chance to gather / talk at a place that will provide over priced drinks =]


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## Dart guy 16 (Jan 16, 2012)

Why is frog day and posting that something could be delivered there any different than something being delivered to any local shows with the same rules. If its going to be enforced for one it should be across the board.


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## Dart guy 16 (Jan 16, 2012)

Sorry Scott just posted the same thing


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Hey....I know how you can sneak in to Frog Day without paying !

and the museum, and the lectures !!!

PM me on how to 'not have to pay anything'. After all, why should you have to pay anything, right ?


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## Dart guy 16 (Jan 16, 2012)

I understand this 100% 

But....... Just to stir the pot a bit 
Wouldn't the frog classifieds on this site be a similar situation?
It's people selling stuff without having to pay the fees that vendors pay to run a business. Buying or renting a table at an event is a similar to the money you put into having a business. You need a tax Id and whatnot. If I'm selling stuff on my own I can avoid all of that, how is it any different?


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

Dart guy 16 said:


> I understand this 100%
> 
> But....... Just to stir the pot a bit
> Wouldn't the frog classifieds on this site be a similar situation?
> It's people selling stuff without having to pay the fees that vendors pay to run a business. Buying or renting a table at an event is a similar to the money you put into having a business. You need a tax Id and whatnot. If I'm selling stuff on my own I can avoid all of that, how is it any different?


Its not any different. Valid point. My main problem is posts being deleted without rules being violated. As if "frog day" is trademarked by a mod.

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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

> DB may remove any item from the Classifieds and/or Trading Post forums at any time for any reason.


I don't know why this concept is so hard for some people. Do you really think it is appropriate to post your frogs for sale at an event that you're not supporting? This is something that just isn't done. Vendors pay for tables which make events possible. People advertising frogs for sale at a show undercut those vendors, making them less likely to pay for tables in the future. DB and it's moderators have always been pretty consistent with this, anyone smart enough knows the work around, and if ya don't, we'll you don't deserve to get your frogs sold anyway.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I don't know why this concept is so hard for some people. Do you really think it is appropriate to post your frogs for sale at an event that you're not supporting? This is something that just isn't done. Vendors pay for tables which make events possible. People advertising frogs for sale at a show undercut those vendors, making them less likely to pay for tables in the future. DB and it's moderators have always been pretty consistent with this, anyone smart enough knows the work around, and if ya don't, we'll you don't deserve to get your frogs sold anyway.


This is a public forum. You are not zoo security. Not for sale at frog day, available for pick up in the vicinity. I'm not suggesting people stand out front of the zoo and peddle.

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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Look, it really pisses me off when I am paying $70 - $120 for a table and people start offering the same things I am selling for lower prices who have no intention to get their own table. Every month this is happening before Hamburg or White Plains and now for Frog Day. It is not fair to the paying vendors. I have two individuals sharing my table at frog day with very small amounts of product, but they wanted to support Frog Day and not offend vendors and they didnt have enough to justify their own table. Lots of other guys are doing the same and I had several people I had to turn down because they were selling the same frogs as Richard or I. 

The easy way around this is to put up a classified ad and say local pick up only or delivery before or after such and such a show. No shows allow animals into a venue without a request from a vendor, so the offer of bringing into a show shouldn't even be made. Another thing that could be down is a trade ad specifically asking vendors if they are interested in a trade.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

joshbaker14t said:


> This is a public forum. You are not zoo security. Not for sale at frog day, available for pick up in the vicinity. I'm not suggesting people stand out front of the zoo and peddle.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2



Pretty sure if the zoo said you can have the venue here but no animals besides the vendors animals.....they are asking the show promoters to support this rule....and the show promoters are asking for volunteers to help with the show running smoothly.....doesn't this all go along with that.

And was the part about the mods not caring about the hotel deals just completely ignored? They aren't saying don't bring frogs into NY.....just don't bring them into the zoo.....acting in the duty as volunteer to help the show promoters who are being allowed to use the facility for the show. Would be nice to not have future opportunities ruined.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

I agree that non vendor frogs should not be brought to the show. However, deleting posts offering to deliver to people who are attending the show is not right. That is all I am saying. I am respectfully bowing out of this thread now. 

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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

All I hear is the stomping feet of a petulant child.

"wha wha wha, I can't take advantage of the hard work and effort of people who are making an event happen to sell my frogs"

Shut up and buy a table or don't leach off of the event.

So tired of a world where people feel entitled to take advantage of the hard work and effort of others without contributing anything themselves.


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## Jgraz (Sep 1, 2013)

Clearly this thread has him awry. It has become a vendor gang up on Josh. It's clear and understood that frogs will not be allowed into the zoo unless they are from paying vendors. That is not the issue that was brought up originally. The issue is that a moderator is randomly deleting posts that offer frogs for sale that day by non vendors. That moderator is also a vendor. I ask again in what capacity are you acting? This mod/vendor has also not deleted posts by other vendors that have offered frogs for sale that day that cannot be brought to the zoo. How is that allowed? How is a vendor allowed to post frogs for sale that cannot be brought in but a hobbiest cannot? I'm actually surprised that many of you are not promoting trade amongst the people but only acting to fill your own wallets. As a reefer who has gone to many frag swaps this would never happen. In fact it is encouraged for members to sell and trade amongst themselves. Vendors will make money nonetheless, but by alienating the hobbiest you are going down wrong road.


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## Jgraz (Sep 1, 2013)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> All I hear is the stomping feet of a petulant child.
> 
> "wha wha wha, I can't take advantage of the hard work and effort of people who are making an event happen to sell my frogs"
> 
> ...



And seriously, wha wha wha. 

I guess I know what place I'm not buying anything.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Notice that the two posters making the biggest stink are also newer members to the forum. Perhaps you two just don't understand. This is the way it's always been kids. You buy a table and you're an official vendor, then you can advertise what frogs you're bringing to frog day. If you don't you're just some other schmuck selling frogs out of your hotel room. Perfectly legal to do, but you don't have whatever it takes to purchase a table, stand behind your frogs, educate the public, support this event and amphibian conservation, and represent the hobby. Simple as that. Buy a table, sell your frogs at the sanctioned event, or don't do that and whine about not being able to place ads. It's a simple matter of put up or shut up.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

All those people offered to bring the frogs to the hotel though. If they can't bring them into the zoo.....I'm sure they aren't leaving them in the car all day....hotel makes complete sense.

This goes on at all shows....non vendors bring stuff to sell to people....usually prearranged. I think its the aspect of it being a zoo that has brought this about. Though I will say I have seen this happen for all the frog day type shows regardless of location....not the regular old reptile shows though. I don't think it should be policed by a forum for shows. But since this is a zoo and the promoters asked for volunteers to help regulate this..... I think that answers the question of why they are being removed. It was already suggested to just not use frog day in the ads.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Notice that the two posters making the biggest stink are also newer members to the forum. Perhaps you two just don't understand. This is the way it's always been kids. You buy a table and you're an official vendor, then you can advertise what frogs you're bringing to frog day. If you don't you're just some other schmuck selling frogs out of your hotel room. Perfectly legal to do, but you don't have whatever it takes to purchase a table, stand behind your frogs, educate the public, support this event and amphibian conservation, and represent the hobby. Simple as that. Buy a table, sell your frogs at the sanctioned event, or don't do that and whine about not being able to place ads. It's a simple matter of put up or shut up.


I'm no kid. Please delete the classified section then. Clearly only vendors are allowed to sell stuff. I'm not whining. Simply noting an abuse of power. I had no ads deleted, but I am tired of reading about how they will be/have been.

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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

joshbaker14t said:


> Read the posts. .... You're so tough on the internet.
> 2


I have read them, that's not the issue. I have no doubt that you're reading them too, I just have my doubts about your comprehension of what has been posted. 

Do you doubt that I'd have the same opinion and express that to you in person? If you expressed this in person I'd be just as quick, probably more so, to call you out on it in person.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

joshbaker14t said:


> I am tired of reading about how they will be/have been.
> 
> 2


Then stop reading them???? /facepalm


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Jgraz said:


> I guess I know what place I'm not buying anything.


Not attending or vending.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

I'll stop now since I've been issued an infraction. 
Incredible. I started this with a question. Clearly the answer is posts may be deleted for no reason.
I don't even have a horse in this race... apparently civil discussion is not possible. 

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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Jgraz said:


> I'm actually surprised that many of you are not promoting trade amongst the people but only acting to fill your own wallets. As a reefer who has gone to many frag swaps this would never happen. In fact it is encouraged for members to sell and trade amongst themselves. Vendors will make money nonetheless, but by alienating the hobbiest you are going down wrong road.


Frog day isn't a frag swap and isn't the reef hobby. Apples and oranges. I'm also a reef hobbyist, I know how things in that hobby are done. 

I think you need to take the tinfoil hat off for a second. These guys are protecting the event, the zoo, and the vendors who have paid to support the event from people who think it is ok to take advantage of that hard work and the "frog day" brand image as well, to sell some frogs, when they have contributed nothing. If they don't, events won't happen like this anymore, simple as that.

And since I've been challenged to put up or shut up on the subject, last year I attended Microcosm in San Diego. Posts by people offering to bring frogs to that event were also deleted, by mods, some who did and some who didn't attend. People knew I was coming and what frogs I had and asked me to bring those frogs to the event. Out of respect for the vendors who helped make Microcosm a reality by paying for tables, I declined. I told them, if you can't find those frogs from a vendor at the show and support them, contact me after the show and we can make a deal. My clients were actually very respectful and understanding and impressed that I defered to the shows vendors. I lost a sale on some fants, but I was happy to do so, because the guy bought some nice fants from a vendor there that helped make that show possible. I had no problem selling them later and the frogs I had that were not available at microcosm were eventually purchased by the people that wanted them in the first place.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

joshbaker14t said:


> Clearly the answer is posts may be deleted for no reason.


Not no reason, it's been repeatedly explained to you, you just don't like the reasons.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Since how we moderate was brought into question, I feel compelled to reply with this direct quote from the User Agreement:



> DB may remove any item from the Classifieds and/or Trading Post forums at any time for any reason.


That alone should suffice to stop the claim of "random deletion of ads," BUT, like others have mentioned, there are a few expected good manners/common sense rules that are instilled in this forum. The moderation team enforces those as well. 

With that said, Lou's post was not to start a discussion, it was to stop a undesirable trend. Dendroboard is not affiliated with Frog Day and any moderator, selling at an event or not, will delete threads that mooch on official vendors (reason already thoroughly explained in this thread). Thread closed.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Last thought here - sorry for posting while the thread is closed.

As it has been pointed out - it IS in the User Agreement that we can pull ads for any reason. And yes, the reason in this case is enough.

But further - not every single point that we will moderate on is going to be in the User Agreement.

Common Sense Rules rule here. 

If we had to name every single thing posters are *not* allowed to post - that would be a fairly long User Agreement. 

Some items are acted on, and explained.

That is all.

s


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