# Actual problem with high temperatures?



## npaull (May 8, 2005)

I'm bored at work, so I begin to ponder...

How much "study" (formal or informal) has been done on "high" temps for darts (ie in the 80s)? I wonder how many of the problems associated with high temperature may actually be due to associated low humidity, rather than just high temperature.

In other words, are 80s temps actually that dangerous/bad, or may it be more that, by the time temperatures climb into the 80s, humidity starts to get too low? 

I'm not staking a claim one way or the other (and I keep my frogs in the seventies) but it is something to wonder about. Has anybody traveled to the native Dendrobatid biotopes with a temp gun and shot the surface temperature of the substrates in which they were found? I'd love to see that data... Anyway I welcome all comments.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I've only been to 2 tropical places outside the U.S. One is Puerto Rico and the other being Costa Rica.

When in Costa Rica, we stayed quite a bit of our trip in the Osa Penninsula. This was in the month of June. Our camping grounds where smack dab in the middle of the rainforest. Under the canopy while on nature hikes, I don't remember the temp really getting too much past the 80's. Now outside of the canopy in the open sun, low 90's where easily hit. We did a tree planting thing to help the natives on someone's land that was open to the sun and boy was it HOT.

So I guess in Cost Rica on the Osa, it doesn't really seem to reach too much higher than 80, at least in June. Other times of the year, I have no clue.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Solid. That's good to know - definitely in keeping with conventional frog wisdom... though I wonder what it was like in August...


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2006)

> by the time temperatures climb into the 80s, humidity starts to get too low?


Are you sure about that correlation? Warm air hold more moisture...


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

That's true, but the way one might heat up a vivarium to get warmer temps would tend to dry the air out (ie using a heat bulb, etc). Generally the way one would raise a temperature in a confined space would be to apply dry heat, which would increase evaporation. Hence even though warmer air can hold more water, in making the air warmer things would get dried out.

Basically I was wondering a) if it is KNOWN that darts inhabit cooler temperatures than 80F, and b) if anyone has ever managed to raise temps into the low 80s WHILE maintaining high humidity, and if so, what their results were.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

I've have tincs that spent all last summer in the mid-80s. I also live in Houston where the rH is already like 60+ and my viv has a 1/3 open screen top. Somebody posted about bacterial infections in high temp low circulation vivs; there could be something to this.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I’ve heard that high temps cause neurological problems in dart frogs. slaytonp lost a few terribilis last summer, Maybe she will chime in and let us know if the viv was covered or not.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

I can't find it right now, but there was a website that had some epis basking in a road in like 90+ weather. All I found was this:

Showing about 84F in retic habitat
http://www.tropical-experience.nl/habit ... &submenu=4

Marcos


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> That's true, but the way one might heat up a vivarium to get warmer temps would tend to dry the air out (ie using a heat bulb, etc). Generally the way one would raise a temperature in a confined space would be to apply dry heat, which would increase evaporation. Hence even though warmer air can hold more water, in making the air warmer things would get dried out.


The only way that would happen is if the hot dry air had a way to exchange with the cooler moist air in the viv. Our tanks are usually pretty tightly sealed, so that exchange would take some effort via vents or fans.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Blort said:


> I can't find it right now, but there was a website that had some epis basking in a road in like 90+ weather. All I found was this:
> 
> Showing about 84F in retic habitat
> http://www.tropical-experience.nl/habit ... &submenu=4
> ...


I see 84% humidity, with a temp of 29 C (don't know off hand what that corresponds to)


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

84.2F


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Oh...never mind then!


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

It seems to me that in nature, a frog would have the opportunity to escape climbing temperatures by moving to to small microclimates in the shade and moisture, small mud puddles etc. In the artificial environment of a vivarium, I think such microclimes are less possible in a tight container of glass. This makes all the more critical that we carefully monitor temps INSIDE our vivs.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I agree that micro climates are important, but they exist in the viv....areas of much higher humidity, temp differences, ect... The temp can have a 10 degree variance from the bottom to top of many tanks...or more. 

From my experience darts can take a wide swing in temps, and even spikes of high heat...in fact my place accidently hit 90 one day (thats not taking into account the higher temps in the tanks from lights and less ventilation) and my frogs seemed to love it. Almost every frog i had was out and about active and hunting. But sustained temps like these are the problem, and i wouldnt think of keeping them at those temps for more then a couple hours....scared the crap out of me.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Alan Zimmerman said:


> It seems to me that in nature, a frog would have the opportunity to escape climbing temperatures by moving to to small microclimates in the shade and moisture, small mud puddles etc. In the artificial environment of a vivarium, I think such microclimes are less possible in a tight container of glass. This makes all the more critical that we carefully monitor temps INSIDE our vivs.


I brought ym temp gun to peru. off the top of my head i remember it being 71 at the atelopus site and 79 at the reticulatus site.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2006)

I have been to Peru, and it was interesting. During the mid August in Peru's "hot/dry" season in the area around Iquitos, the temperature and humidity in the understory on a sunny rainless day were 77 degrees fahrenheit and above 80% humidity if I remember correctly. We used a digital temp/humidity probe. The darts that were found in this area were Dendrobates reticulatus, Dendrobates ventrimaculatus (orange "amazonicus"), and an Epipedobates species that I can't remember off the top of my head. In the direct sun howver, it was in the 90's and noticably drier for obvious reasons. 
However, in the regions of higher elevation around Tarapoto and other places within a few hours of there, temperatures were much lower and humidity was consistently higher. Though I don't recall us taking any actual readings, it was obviously noticable.

With respect to heat, I did lose some darts to heat about 4 years ago. The central air was not working, and I was at work. It as an incredibly hot day, and the temperature in my bedroom was in the mid 90s by the time I got home. I lost most of my tricolors, and two of my imitators. My auratus, vents, leucs and azureus survived but were clearly feeling the heat. Since we have moved into our new house, we purchased a brand new central air system, and my frog room has its own window air conditioner with its own thermostat. You can never be too safe. 

Ryan


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

one solution i found to temp extremes barring loss of electricity is getting a thermostat that turns both the heat and airconditioning on. My place stays a constant 69-72 degrees now. the lights add a few degrees to the tanks so most of the time the frogs get a temp swing from the mid to high 70's down to the high 60's at night. 

This allows me to avoid extreme temp changes. i dont have to worry about forgetting to turn the heat or air on or off if we have a hot day then a cold night or vise versa...which is especially helpful when u live in a trailor that can hit the 80s if the sun is out even if its 50 outside.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

This is controversial. If you search on a post by me I asked long, long ago called "Who, 86 degrees!" Brent Brock mentions that he's had frogs survive temps well into the nineties, but I believe he has pumilio and auratus. He also said (and I believe Brian did as well) that frogs could get "gassed" by bacterial decomposition which could explain why frogs *could tolerate higher temps in the wild, but not in captivity as CO2 builup would be much greater in a closed system (suffocating the frogs).

Grassypeak:

Costa Rican frogs probably experience different temps than tincs/azureus/phyllobates, etc. do....so you can't say generalize that all dart frogs will tolerate the same temps. (such as phyllobates terribilis be more intolerant of high temps)

Tricolor will tolerate it down to low sixties, high fifties at night depending on the morph...

My tinctorius actually prefers temperatures not above 76...at least for boldness. The frog becomes more shy above 80 for me.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Ryan Ivankovic said:


> I have been to Peru, and it was interesting. During the mid August in Peru's "hot/dry" season in the area around Iquitos, the temperature and humidity in the understory on a sunny rainless day were 77 degrees fahrenheit and above 80% humidity if I remember correctly. We used a digital temp/humidity probe. The darts that were found in this area were Dendrobates reticulatus, Dendrobates ventrimaculatus (orange "amazonicus"), and an Epipedobates species that I can't remember off the top of my head. In the direct sun howver, it was in the 90's and noticably drier for obvious reasons.
> However, in the regions of higher elevation around Tarapoto and other places within a few hours of there, temperatures were much lower and humidity was consistently higher. Though I don't recall us taking any actual readings, it was obviously noticable.
> 
> With respect to heat, I did lose some darts to heat about 4 years ago. The central air was not working, and I was at work. It as an incredibly hot day, and the temperature in my bedroom was in the mid 90s by the time I got home. I lost most of my tricolors, and two of my imitators. My auratus, vents, leucs and azureus survived but were clearly feeling the heat. Since we have moved into our new house, we purchased a brand new central air system, and my frog room has its own window air conditioner with its own thermostat. You can never be too safe.
> ...


aaahhh you must be Marks friend Ryan. He said he took someone named ryan out here. Its has ben a blast so far. everything is more then I could have wished for.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2006)

*Heat stress*

Isn't the convetional wisdom that the tinc complex is more robust and can withstand higher temps whereas the tumbnails are more sensitive to high temps.

Along this line of thought it is interesting that pumillos are endemic to the same biomes as other thumbnails yet prefer temps about 10 degrees warmer than the other thumbs. Niche selection?


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Actually, pumilio in general occupy quite a different habitat from most of the thumbnails. Pumilio are generally a lowland, disturbed forest species, often found on forest edges or old, brushy clearings. It is considerably warmer here than in the high-altitude, extremely wet, verdant and often (relatively) virgin montane forests of imitator, lamasi, etc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In amphibians in general, the tolerance to thermal maxima (Tmax) within some parameters is dependent on the temperatures at which the amphibian has been maintained. If your enclosures have a normal swing variation that can reach up to say 80 F, and another enclosure will have swings up to 76 F, the amphibians that are acclimated to the 80F will be able to survive a warmer temperature increase than those kept at the lower temperatures. 
The rate at which the temperature increases may also be a factor in how well the amphibian tolerates the increase. 

At work, I do not keep any amphibians in sealed enclosures and simple partially cover and spray the enclosures to raise the humidity levels. I have had a number of anuran breed in screen covered enclosures with a room humidity (keep in mind this doesn't indicate microclimate humidity) of about 45 % without any excess spraying (tincts, and azureus for two examples). 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I also have to remark on the pumilio occupying different niches than thumbnails, or many other PDFs that come to mind for that matter. Costa Rican pumilio especially I found in some very hot areas. While I was drinking water like mad to deal with suffering from heat exhuastion, there was a pumilio calling on the side of the road. I found them most commonly, and in the highest density, in disturned areas with direct sunlight to the area (no forest canopy to keep them cooler). I did find BJs in the forest, but at much lower density, more due to breed spots I believe than heat tho, as the forest I found them in was up into the 80s as it was in the northeastern region that gets hot as blazes.

I've recently lost a couple of tincs due to a room over heating, basically a double greenhouse effect. My roomate's room gets direct sunlight in the morning, and if she leaves her door closed it has been recorded to go over 10 degrees warmer than my room, which maxs out at 74 F. If the room is open, the air mixs with the rest of the apartment and it doesn't go past 76 usually. Unfortunately not thinking, she left for the weekend (and I was gone for the weekend as well), the door staid closed for two days, and the animals had glass lids on their tanks (thus like a small greenhouse within a larger greenhouse). The froglets in the room with smaller body size than the adults where the ones that suffered the most, and we lost a cobalt and a blue sip.

Over the summer I lost my whole collection due to moving into a house and dealing with a maryland heat wave (up into the high 90s) which no air conditioning available. Some of the animals lived thru the initial heat wave, only to seem to have neurologic problems that led to death. The only animal to survive was my Nic auratus female, which makes sense as they probibly deal with some serious heat in Nicaragua as well.


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