# observation/experiment-updated



## frogmeing (Sep 23, 2005)

Maybe this should go in the general discussion section but i'm not sure.

I've been having problems with SLS in my tricolors for a while. Probably the last 5 clutches or so have been bad.

I've had nothing but good eggs from my alanis tincs. 

A while back I decided to throw an alanis tad in with the group of tricolors(I have a pond section where the tadpoles are deposited and left in the tank). The entire clutch popped out with SLS along with the next clutch. Meanwhile the alanis tad was still in there. Mind you this alanis tad was the biggest tinc tad I have ever seen/had. When it finally morphed out the froglet was rather large but it's legs very thin, its colors much different than any others the parents have had, much more faded. 

Now I'd have to get an exact date but i'd say it is about 2 months old now and has not grown at all. It will not take FF, only springtails.

At the time I was feeding all the tads the same foods. The only thing that MAY have differed was water temp. The tris being a bit cooler. 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Could it be the water temps?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

If it was in a pond in the viv, my first two thoughts would be temp, but more importantly water quality. How is the water either being filtered or cleaned? If it is not (by either a filter or plants in the water), then I suspect that water quality is your answer. Of all the possibilities that could be tied (diet, temps, water quality), I think it's the most likely one considering the situation of them being raised in a viv water feature. With that thought explored, have you measured water temps? A cooler temp would take longer for a tinc to morph, but it sounds like what you are describing is almost borderline spindly to me (could be wrong, that's just how I read it). Typically, the cooler the temps the longer it takes to morph, and the less likely to have spindly. Once again, if you are getting spindlyesque symptoms from a lower temp morphing pool, my thought would have to go back again to water quality...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

There are a huge variety of "causes" linked to SLS. If the parents of the frogs are young, possibly overbred (if older, have produced healthy froglets in the past, sometimes seasonal), water quality, etc. etc. Ed probably has a better list.

Since all the tadpoles have been raised in the pond, take a water sample to Petco or Petsmart and have them do a full water test (they do it for free). The biggest problem I've had with ponds in tank and for the established "ponds" outside the tank (both of which rarely have water changes) is water quality... it's like setting up a planted fish tank, it takes a long time to build up and be just right, and takes a bit of thought. If you're trying or hoping to have tads raised in tanks where the water container is not seperate from the drainage layer (like film canisters and broms - these can easily be flushed to maintain water quality) you need to pay particular attention to the water quality. Everything from the tank drains into the drainage layer. If you don't have enough plants cleaning water, or gravel/cand for cleaning bacteria, etc, water quality can get pretty nasty, especially without regular water changes. 

I've switched my in tank pond methods. I've been doing in tank ponds that use water in the drainage layer for years and years, but they really only worked in larger tanks (the volume of water involved was 5 or more gallons when the ponds were "full"), and took a long time to really stablize (usually I dump froglets in the tank, and by the time they were breeding 6 to 18 months later the pond was stable). Ponds in my tanks now (especially smaller tanks like my 16" cubes) I have gladware container ponds with sand, gravel, rocks, and some plants growing in them (sphagnum loves to invade it, and its a great starting point for riccia and semi-aquatic mosses like java). I flush them with water once a week or so, and it also makes it really easy to remove tads!


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## Guest (May 31, 2007)

Also, what _kind_ of water are you using: RO/DI, distilled, aged tap? 

I had SLS problems for a while using filtered RO water...I started mixing in aged tapwater and things got better. Purely anecdotal, though--could be that those were just the initial clutches from my SI's and at the time I started adding the tapwater they were producing better quality tads.


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## frogmeing (Sep 23, 2005)

*sls*

Come think of it, it may be a water quality issue as I have no filter/pump in the tank. I've been using aged tap water as well. 

When they first started laying, first few clutches came out with no SLS, that tank was about a year old. The tank they are in now was set up only 2 months ago. I have no water cleaning device in there either and have been doing water changes less frequently, about once a week.

Last weekend I came home to find new tads in the tank. I have taken some of them out and placed them into 2 different containers. One that is fresh new water with some plants in it and the other is water I have had with established algae and plants in that i take water from to house my other tads. I also left a few in the tank.

I'm going to start changing the water in the pond more frequently like I used to.

When I take the sample to the store to get checked...what exactly should I be looking for? PH levels? 

Thanks for the replies, i'll let you know how everything goes. 
I have also added a 5.0 UV light to the adults every other day.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

pH is good to know, but I'm more interested in ammonia and nitrates. Just ask them to test for whatever they have in their kits. Their kits, with the exception of pH, are basically broken up into "good, poor, bad" type levels - if any of those show up as being poor or bad, these are indicators of water issues. pH should be slightly acidic. Partial water changes with declorinated water (use declorinator, you may have chloromines in your water which will not disipate over time) will help with water quality. While my tanks tended to not have anything to make the water flow, I used a "rain" plant waterer instead of a mister on those tanks, so there was a lot of new water going into those tanks. The tanks were also half screen, so there was a ton of evaporation. I also had done freshwater fish tanks for years before doing these tanks, and set them up as mini fish tanks...

Not sure what good the UV lamp will do, and I hate adding another variable to the mix before you work out the one you're already testing.


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## frogmeing (Sep 23, 2005)

*SLS*

As far as the UV bulb, I can only asssume that the frogs, even in the understory are getting some rays of sunlight here and there. Thats why I did that. But like you said about adding the variable. I have taken it off for now so we can see what happens without it.

I'll post again once I get some more info and thank youall for the replies.


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## frogmeing (Sep 23, 2005)

*experiment*

Well the first tad of the clutch popped out it's front legs today and they appear to be good! They are thick and seem to be well formed. 

With the past clutches of SLS I noticed some legs popping out early and being completely lifeless. None of the tads that I left in the tank or took out have had this happen to them this time around. 

I never got around to taking a water sample to get checked out so I don't know what the actual water problem was. I ended up changing out the water in both enclosures daily.

However one thing I have noticed is that the tads I took out of the tank seem to be much lighter in color and appear to show some spotting as well as striping as opposed to the others which are darker and just show the striping. I was feeding both the same foods, but i'm sure the ones in the tank ate much more FF remnants than the others.

Hopefully the first one isn't the only one with properly functioning legs. Thank you all for your input.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Have you tried a control group of tricolors where the eggs or tads were pulled and raised outside the tank in optimal conditions. Consider pulling half of the clutch and noting whether the SLS follows or not.


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## frogmeing (Sep 23, 2005)

Alan,

I haven't tried that. I've got a new clutch in the water now that I will be separating tomorrow.

By the way, so far i've got 6 tads with front legs popped out and all seem to be functional. 5 from the"pond" which was generally 2 degrees warmer and 1 from the shoebox.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Anthony: Are you feeding the tads in the tank pond ? If so - what food are you using?

I recommend that in your A/B comparison you feed the tads raised outside the tank a good balanced diet.

Alan


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## frogmeing (Sep 23, 2005)

*SLS*

Hey Alan,

I was feeding them the same diet inside and outside the pond although the water in the pond obviously had more flies as well as algae growth in it.

Monday: Tetra brand cyclop-eez
Tues: Tadpole bites
Weds: Started out with goldfish food omega one protein enhanced fish flakes but switched to Kens premium colorflake + Naturose. about one month in.
Thurs: Tadpole bites
Fri: Aqueon goldfish granules(which im not to certain they actually ate)
Sat: Spirullina
Sun: Omega one shrimp pellets


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Given that - Corey's thought on water quality would seem the place to concentrate.


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## frogmeing (Sep 23, 2005)

Yeah i'm pretty sure that was the problem. Do you say that because of the daily feeding? I'm not feeding a ton of food. Just a little bit of all of them.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Just a note about when I was raising tads in ponds... I fed them once a week, maybe twice a week if there was a heavy tadpole load in the pond and they were full sized. The thing with the pond in the tanks is that you shouldn't have to feed that often... give them some leaf litter and just the stuff falling into the pond and what is growing in the pond should be fine.

The biggest problem people have with tads is overfeeding them... if you do not see them eat everything in 20 minutes, you're over feeding, and that really messes up the water quality.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

frogmeing said:


> Yeah i'm pretty sure that was the problem. Do you say that because of the daily feeding? I'm not feeding a ton of food. Just a little bit of all of them.


Hard to say without water quality tests - but ponds in vivs are closed systems. Unless you have a lot of plant growth in the pond and some regular water changes - I can see where daily feeding can build-up a lot a detrius and result in less than optimal water quality.


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## frogmeing (Sep 23, 2005)

*sls*

With the clutches prior to this one I was changing water about once a week and feeding daily. Those are the ones that came out with SLS.

Now I am changing water and feeding daily and so far off the top of my head I have 9 froglets with properly funtioning legs.

Thanks for all the help and i'll post back after the A/B comparison.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

The problem is, that it is tough to say if it was the water quality or the parents.


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