# [Mantella] - 10 dead frogs in 4 months



## vignolo (Mar 9, 2005)

Hi,

First, I know this question as probably been asked before, but I don't know wich key words to use for the search.

Before Chrismast, I lost six mantellas baroni. They all died about 2 weeks after the first symtoms. The frogs were tired and not moving at all. They were also very skinny and they remained hidden. They lost any appetite makin panacure and treatment non effective.

This week, I found 4 dead mantellas leavigata that I bought 2 months before in there tank. There were 6 mantellas in the tank and there's only one left (1 lost ?)

As I'm making 6 new tanks for my frogs, I want to make sure that the material used in the fabrication isn't the cause of the death. I'm mainly using GE silicon II, Great Stuff, Eggcrate and using Zoo Med peat brick for substrate. Could the ZooMed peat brick be a problem if kept too wet?

Also, I used a heating cable on the leavigata's tank too keep a 22 degrees Celcius air temp (The frogs are in the basement). Could the heat cable has rised the water temp too hot making bactery development faster? I'm changing water once per week and a half.

Also, I'm using MosesWater filter with a reverse osmosis membrane to avoid pollutant that may be in water.

The only hypothesis for me is that I'm not changing water enough and bacteries are developing and are attacking frogs. It's very hard, here in Quebec, to find a veterinary to see what's the cause of the death.

To conclude, I lost 10 frogs in 4-5 months and I don't want it to happen again. Any suggestion or advice? All your help will be appreciate so much.

Thanks
Pierre-Luc


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

Well first of all, I'm very sorry to hear about your loss!! And I doubt it's bacteria. Possibly some other disease (chytrid), or maybe a problem with supplements. Hopefully someone else can chime in?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You`ll never be able to figure it out w/out first eliminating the possibility it was parasites. I don`t have a good frog vet around here either. I overnite fecals to Dr. Frye. Chytrid won`t be tested for by way of fecal exam. That is seperate swab test.


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## vignolo (Mar 9, 2005)

Hi,

Tanks for the replies. I took into account that Chytrid could be the cause of all my problem. I'll order some Test Kits from Pisces Molecular to see what could have killed them. 

Why it couldn't be a bacteria? Because the frogs are diying too fast?

Thanks
PL


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

At this point - I don't think you can rule out any sort of diagnosis.

IMO - bacterial infection is a very possible cause, although I am not quite sure that your hypothesis of the water heating up and promoting bacterial growth would be the cause of the supposed infection. But so far, there is little info to make bacterial more likely than internal parasites, or vice versa. Viral infections would also be a possibility.

Were the frogs WC? CB? Were they tested for parasites while they were still healthy?

How were you using the heat cable? Where was it positioned? Where were the temps being measured?

Sorry that you have had to go through this experience.


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## vignolo (Mar 9, 2005)

rozdaboff said:


> At this point - I don't think you can rule out any sort of diagnosis.


Yes, but I have to make you pretty soon!



rozdaboff said:


> although I am not quite sure that your hypothesis of the water heating up and promoting bacterial growth would be the cause of the supposed infection.


Maybe that the hypotesis of wet substrate + water change would be better?



rozdaboff said:


> Were the frogs WC? CB? Were they tested for parasites while they were still healthy?


The frogs were all WC. And they weren't test for parasites because, as mentionned before, no vet is doing it in Quebec. At every place I called, the person told me: Frogs? What kind of frogs? (Mantellas). Good Luck!



rozdaboff said:


> How were you using the heat cable? Where was it positioned? Where were the temps being measured?


The heating cable was under a 18 x 24 x 18 ExoTerra viv. The temp has been measured 3 or 4 inches above the water line. I'm sure Heat Related Muscle Spasm Syndrome as nothing to do with the death of my frogs. Also the temps didn't go above 23 degrees Celcius.[/quote]

Thanks
PL


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## vignolo (Mar 9, 2005)

Hi,

Since there's absolutely no veterinarian in Quebec province (Canada) who can treat frogs. Anyone can help me to find were I could find one near the US borders?

Thanks PL


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## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

Pierre-luc,
A couple of questions:

How long did you have the frogs before the symptoms showed up?
Were they mixed with any other frogs prior to the tank they were in?
Was anything transferred from another tank(wood,plants, stones etc..)?

I am very sorry for your loss. However when you keep frogs this is going to happen and probably will happen again . I am not being callous but i've been in the frog hobby over twenty years (since i was 8) and have had it happen a few times. i am working with a lot of mantellas right now. however I am not a vet. This does sound more like a bacteria problem than a parasite problem( with parasites the frogs shouldn't be lethargic until they are VERY thin). I think they either came in with it or it was transferred from another frog. I highly doubt the cause was the water ( as harmful bacteria in frogs is pretty frog specific and not general bacteria).

One other question:
Do you mean the compressed coco bricks sold as terrarium substrate?
How well was this rinsed out? These have been known to have high contamination of salt so they should be rinsed several times.


Sean


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## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

Sorry it was supposed to since i was eight not a smiley.


Sean


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## vignolo (Mar 9, 2005)

Hi phyllomedusa,

I must seperate two cases, fisrt case is the mantellas baroni. I had them for a long time, about a year and everything was working great. 2 months before the dead of 6 of them (all of them), I got another M. baroni from a friend and I putted it with other baroni without takin any precaution. All frog died about 6 months after. The frogs all died in two weeks after the first symptoms. I also added some plants from Tropiflora months before.

The second case is that I used my girlfriend's viv wich had only plants before and putted 6 freshly imported M. leavigata. All the frogs died two months after their arriving. They all died 2 weeks after the first symptoms.

Do you have any idea?

PS: by the time I've been able to reach the only veterinerian able to treat frogs here and I'll get an appointment soon.

Thanks
PL


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## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

i would have to say its probably a bacterial infection. It may be toxicity due to pesticides-what kind of plants were they? I would probably rule out parasites because frogs generally are not as sluggish with parasites as they are with infections.


Sean


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