# Cohabitation



## billalexander98 (Apr 29, 2017)

Hey guys! 

Wondering if anyone could help me with some information on cohabitation. 

- Can two or more different species of Dart Frog live in the same vivarium? 
- And what could be the best to house together?

- If not, which species is "easiest" to house in large groups? 

- Finally, how about general enclosure set ups? Could a moving water feature be ideal for instance?

Cheers!


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Two quick answers here:

Don't mix dart frog species in one tank 

And myself personally would say, don't try a water feature in your first tank.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I would recommend a big group of one of the variable auratus morphs. El Cope or Turquoise and Bronze would be good choices. They do great in groups, and in a large group, you will see some nice variation in color, from green to turquoise to blue, all in the most amazing metallic shades.


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## billalexander98 (Apr 29, 2017)

Thank you for your suggestion!


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Great suggestion, epiphytes! I like the idea of the variability within the morph.

I would add lecuomelas, terribilis, anthonyii and galctonotus to that list. I am sure there are others, too. Those are the ones I have had experience with and remember right now 

Also, I finally tried a water feature in the my most recent build (my 40th? 50th? build) and I really don't like having it in there. No matter how hard I tried to make it work right and last long-term, I would rather it not be in there. Dart frogs don't (usually) need a water feature. I suggest steering clear of it.

Mark


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## billalexander98 (Apr 29, 2017)

Encyclia said:


> Great suggestion, epiphytes! I like the idea of the variability within the morph.
> 
> I would add lecuomelas, terribilis, anthonyii and galctonotus to that list. I am sure there are others, too. Those are the ones I have had experience with and remember right now
> 
> ...


Fantastic! Thank you


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

billalexander98 said:


> Fantastic! Thank you


Just to be clear, Mark isn't suggesting that you can keep those different species of frogs together in one viv. But you can certainly keep them in groups of their own kind.


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## billalexander98 (Apr 29, 2017)

JPP said:


> Just to be clear, Mark isn't suggesting that you can keep those different species of frogs together in one viv. But you can certainly keep them in groups of their own kind.


I am aware, thank you


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## Nemesis713 (Feb 1, 2016)

I am a big fan of the El Cope auratus. Two of my three are pretty bold. I just took this pic of one of mine.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Just to elaborate on this question/issue. Does anyone know if different genera of dart frogs can be housed together? The accepted definition of genera is organisms that are genetically distinct from each other that mating or viable resulting offspring cannot occur. Will different genera of dart frogs even attempt to pair and spawn? I'm hoping that someone with specific knowledge on this situation can answer rather than seeking opinions on the subject. Thank you.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

John J M said:


> The accepted definition of genera is organisms that are genetically distinct from each other that mating or viable resulting offspring cannot occur.


FWIW, that's not quite true. Current cladistic analyses take dates of genetic divergence in lineages as determinant of taxonomic divisions, but that divergence doesn't in itself entail that different taxa aren't reproductively compatible.

Also, hybridization isn't the main consideration in cross-generic cohabitation.

Also, as this is a very contentious issue, expect to get opinions on the subject. Simply searching 'mixing' here may yield the info you're looking for without causing commotion.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I would also say that there's a difference between *CAN* different species cohabitate and *SHOULD* we cohabitate different species. 

Just because something doesn't lead to the death of the animals doesn't mean it's a good idea.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> FWIW, that's not quite true. Current cladistic analyses take dates of genetic divergence in lineages as determinant of taxonomic divisions, but that divergence doesn't in itself entail that different taxa aren't reproductively compatible.
> 
> Also, hybridization isn't the main consideration in cross-generic cohabitation.
> 
> Also, as this is a very contentious issue, expect to get opinions on the subject. Simply searching 'mixing' here may yield the info you're looking for without causing commotion.


I'm going to go way out on a speculative limb here and say that this is probably not something that you recall from HS AP biology class. But yes, a lot of the old beliefs and definitions are being reassessed, but one must keep in mind that genera aren't necessarily exact taxonomy, but man- given based upon our best guesses at the time and organisms are constantly being reclassified and assigned to new genera as we gain knowledge. Not to mention that most of the binomial nomenclature was developed prior to and without the benefits of genetic analysis. So your points are well taken, both with regard to hybridization concerns as well as their ability to live together harmoniously without concerns over competition for dominance and survival within their ecological niches and resources. 

I've read on so many sites about the dim view taken on cohabitation, so to the extreme of blocking the word itself as if a 4 letter word, yet no one seems to specifically define cohabitation (which can have several definitions) let alone why they're concerned about it. In the broadest sense of the word, housing dart frogs with isopods and springtails would certainly qualify as cohabitation.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

John J M said:


> yet no one seems to specifically define cohabitation (which can have several definitions)


Searching the term 'mixing' will give enough information to know what the situation is, even if it is extraordinarily hard to specify both necessary and sufficient conditions for the term to apply (which is actually the case for any minimally complex substantive concept). 

Also, those archives give much detail (including by folks who are no longer active here, some of whom are professionally trained and experienced in the issue) on why keepers are concerned about it, details that would be impossible to do justice to in a single thread like this one.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Thanks for the information and a good place to start to catching up on the history behind this. I didn't realize that this concept was based upon professional opinions by true experts, so definitely worth study. I guess I had assumed that much of this was based upon dogma and old wives tails similar to the beliefs common among some professional dog and cat breeders that I've encountered, where most is derived from superstition rather than sound scientific principles. Thanks again.


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