# Does anyone add calcium to their soil mix....?



## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Does anyone add calcium to their soil mix? 

And if so ... How?

I was wondering if adding it would be benificial. 

Thanks! Todd


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

I added some to my latest build using a clay based substrate. I sprinkled a bit over the substrate, misted it down, then added leaf litter on top. This is beneficial to the frogs, especially the smaller pumilio froglets, as the sprigtails will carry the calcium up with them and in turn be eaten by the froglets. It aids in the supplementation of those frogs who are not capable of eating dusted ff immediately OOW.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

> This is beneficial to the frogs, especially the smaller pumilio froglets, as the sprigtails will carry the calcium up with them and in turn be eaten by the froglets. It aids in the supplementation of those frogs who are not capable of eating dusted ff immediately OOW.


Makes sense. And I think I will do that on my next tank.

I was also thinking about adding a tablespoonful or so of calcium sand (ie: reef tank sand or repti-sand w/ calcium ) into a soil mix.

It seems like it would offer a "time release" calcium option. As the gains dissolved over time in the soil, they would add calcium.

My only concern is that it could make the pH of the soil too high if you got too much.
Has anyone tried that and had any luck?


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

I added fine grain aragonite (crushed coral) used for reef tanks into my soil mix. Aragonite is pure calcium skeletons from corals and as it breaks down in the soil it will release it's calcium. Also, I read somewhere that springtails will chew on it making them calcium enriched.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

randommind said:


> I added some to my latest build using a clay based substrate. I sprinkled a bit over the substrate, misted it down, then added leaf litter on top. This is beneficial to the frogs, especially the smaller pumilio froglets, as the sprigtails will carry the calcium up with them and in turn be eaten by the froglets. It aids in the supplementation of those frogs who are not capable of eating dusted ff immediately OOW.


 
I'm not convinced that springtails mobilize calcium in this manner to any degree.. There will be some calcium in thier exoskeleton but if they follow other invertebrates their calcium to phosphorus ratio is going to result in an inadequate source of calcium. 

What happens in the wild, animals will consume soil on (and in some invertebrates (but not all) like earthworms) when feeding. More imporantly they will also consume soil by accident, when capturing the prey items. The soil is the source of the calcium. 

Most of the soils used in the hobby are very deficient in calcium, and are not conducive to calcium mobilization (for example a substrate high in peat or sphagnum moss is going to cause the calcium to become bound in insoluable salts and potentially lost towards the bottom of the enclosure as calcium humate salts. 

The frogs can also directly uptake calcium from the substrate through thier drinking patch... however this requires that frogs be able to access the clay directly (as does ingestion during feeding). Total coverage of the substrate with organics and/or mosses thwarts this purpose. 

Also having calcium in the substrate does not help a frog that is not recieving sufficient vitamin D3 as this is required to metabolize the calcium. If the frog is too small to dust its food items then it probably isn't going to benefit from the calcium substrate unless it is getting it's D3 from another source (like UVB). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Ed said:


> . If the frog is too small to dust its food items then it probably isn't going to benefit from the calcium substrate unless it is getting it's D3 from another source (like UVB).
> 
> Ed



Do you have any suggestions on how to ensure that the young frogs are in fact receiving the proper amount of D3 to benefit from the calcium substrate? I can only assume that lighting would not be enough or this would not be an issue.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

> Also having calcium in the substrate does not help a frog that is not recieving sufficient vitamin D3 as this is required to metabolize the calcium. If the frog is too small to dust its food items then it probably isn't going to benefit from the calcium substrate unless it is getting it's D3 from another source (like UVB).


It sounds like a calcium rich substrate containing calcium bentonite clay and a modest dose of uva / uvb (along with suppliments) is a good way to go.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

randommind said:


> Do you have any suggestions on how to ensure that the young frogs are in fact receiving the proper amount of D3 to benefit from the calcium substrate? I can only assume that lighting would not be enough or this would not be an issue.


The reason most of the frogs cannot get sufficient D3 from lighting is because most people use covers on their systems that prevent the passage of UVB.. you would have to use glass like that known as starphire or specific acrylics that allow UVB to pass through it. Any attempts to provide sufficient D3 are going to be significantly dependent on your enclosures which is why dusting tends to be very imporant across the board, unless you are setting up a system that allows the frogs to self regulate thier exposure to UVB... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> I'm not convinced that springtails mobilize calcium in this manner to any degree.. There will be some calcium in thier exoskeleton but if they follow other invertebrates their calcium to phosphorus ratio is going to result in an inadequate source of calcium.


A search of the literature indicates that calcium levels are heavily controlled in springtails so you cannot assume that they will "graze" or ingest calcium increasing their levels of calcium. So simple additions hoping the springtails will ingest it and carry to the frogs look to be an incorrect assumption.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> The reason most of the frogs cannot get sufficient D3 from lighting is because most people use covers on their systems that prevent the passage of UVB.. you would have to use glass like that known as starphire or specific acrylics that allow UVB to pass through it. Any attempts to provide sufficient D3 are going to be significantly dependent on your enclosures which is why dusting tends to be very imporant across the board, unless you are setting up a system that allows the frogs to self regulate thier exposure to UVB...
> 
> Ed


I have noticed a lot of talk about clay based substrates and calcium mobilization in general, is it no longer sufficient to dust at every feeding? I ask because the topic seems to have recently become very active and maybe I missed some news or something.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

> unless you are setting up a system that allows the frogs to self regulate thier exposure to UVB...


ED, do you have more thoughts on this?

I use screening under uv lights.

I have them on timers (so they are not on all day or the main source of lighting) because it seems it would be really easy to over uv little frogs.

(side note..I have variabilis that are now 2 mo. ootw that are larger than the adults. 
I am a frog newbie.... but that seems good 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Maybe a new uv thread?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is a lot of information on the forum concerning UVB.. keep in mind that the finer the screening the less UVB will penetrate the tanks. If you have fruit fly proof mesh on the top of the tank, then you have probably pretty much totally screened the frogs from the UVB. If you want to read up on the comparisions, you can get a copy of this article 

Evaluation of UVB reduction by materials commonly used in reptile husbandry - Michael Burger - 2007 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tachikoma said:


> I have noticed a lot of talk about clay based substrates and calcium mobilization in general, is it no longer sufficient to dust at every feeding? I ask because the topic seems to have recently become very active and maybe I missed some news or something.


 
It has been discussed a lot in the past. Dusting is still extremely important as it doesn't just provide calcium but depending on the mix used, D3, carotenoids, other vitamins, etc.. 

There are some people who are working on systems that allow an addition source as would be encountered by the frogs in the wild. That is a small part of what we were looking at with the clay systems (look up the ultimate clay thread...) 

Ed


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Heres an intersting uv website.... while we are off the topic of clay 

UV Guide UK - Ultraviolet Light for Reptiles - UVB reptile lighting on test


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

tachikoma said:


> I have noticed a lot of talk about clay based substrates and calcium mobilization in general, is it no longer sufficient to dust at every feeding? I ask because the topic seems to have recently become very active and maybe I missed some news or something.


The conversation often applies to pumilio froglets (all frogs to some degree, but pumilio seem to be the main concern).

A few of the reasons- 

-pumilio parents do the raising of tads/young froglets, it's harder to keep track of nutritional uptake

-many pum froglets won't take dusted flies until they've grown some

-pumilio seem particularly susceptible to nutritional deficiency (calcium being the most talked about) issues as youngsters... parts of that can probably be attributed to having less variety in diet than in nature, a (most of the time) lack of UV lighting, and other things that are hard for us to match in captivity. 

Generally speaking, it's a way to morph out healthier froglets without having to supply dusted springtails every 3 hours or drop calcium gluconate all of the time. When the froglets forage for food, they'll catch some soil particles along with the food items and take any nutrients in the soil with that. It's not a perfect substitute, but it seems to help.

The other part would be that the natural soil in many of our frogs' homelands has a high percentage of clay- trying to match it as much as possible just goes along with making our vivs as close to nature as possible. The "ultimate clay substrate thread" has a lot of info on the things I mentioned if you want to look into it further.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tclipse said:


> -pumilio seem particularly susceptible to nutritional deficiency (calcium being the most talked about) issues as youngsters... parts of that can probably be attributed to having less variety in diet than in nature, a (most of the time) lack of UV lighting, and other things that are hard for us to match in captivity.


 
I think the reason calcium is most commonly talked about is because there are anecdotal reports of the issues with it and that calcium gluconate/glubionate has been used with success however we don't have any proof that it is the calcium and not the gluconate/glubionate getting the froglets through the tricky period. Also if it is calcium, then it could just as readily be insufficient D3 or an improper ratio of A to D3 to E... 

Ed


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

JaredJ said:


> I added fine grain aragonite (crushed coral) used for reef tanks into my soil mix. Aragonite is pure calcium skeletons from corals and as it breaks down in the soil it will release it's calcium. Also, I read somewhere that springtails will chew on it making them calcium enriched.


I know this is a pretty old thread, but can anyone shed light on this in particular? Would the curshed coral cause a pH issue? I know crushed corals will raise pH when used in a freshwater aquarium. But I thought about this myself


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Whitneyd88 said:


> I know this is a pretty old thread, but can anyone shed light on this in particular? Would the curshed coral cause a pH issue? I know crushed corals will raise pH when used in a freshwater aquarium. But I thought about this myself


It would raise the pH for a period of time after which it will have reacted sufficiently with the humic acids to be covered in a mixture of their insoluble calcium salts when it wouldn't impact pH any more... 

Adding calcium carbonate to a non-clay style substrate is only going to give you a short time pulse of calcium as it will react with the humic acids which will then result in the calcium being pretty unavailable... 

This doesn't tend to happen with the clay particles since the clay has the calcium loosely bound into the matrix from which it can be released by displacement with another positive ion... This prevents all of the calcium found in the clay from ending up as insoluble salts (potentially flushing out of the tank via water changes...).. This in short is why adding calcium substrates to a ABG style substrate isn't going to accomplish the same thing.. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Reading through this thread, I was wondering -- I've noticed that microfauna tends to aggregate wherever I've dropped some repashy. Would it be possible for froglets to receive significant amounts of calcium/d3 by spreading it around the leaf litter in the vivarium? Or would contact with humidity generally ruin the dust? Even taking into account that humidity would degrade the supplement, wouldn't froglets that come into contact with it still receive more in general?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> Reading through this thread, I was wondering -- I've noticed that microfauna tends to aggregate wherever I've dropped some repashy. Would it be possible for froglets to receive significant amounts of calcium/d3 by spreading it around the leaf litter in the vivarium? Or would contact with humidity generally ruin the dust? Even taking into account that humidity would degrade the supplement, wouldn't froglets that come into contact with it still receive more in general?


Or they could also be aggregating for the pulse of vitamin E which is important for many invertebrates (and they can sequester it)...or due to the increase in microbe availability.... or both

Some comments 

Ed


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