# real slow growth rate



## markc019 (Apr 12, 2005)

Hi all,
I have a question for all of you here on the board.. Has anyone other than myself had poor growth out of any of there frogs? I have many breeding groups and alot of frogs.. The frogs with this problem are all suplimented and fed just like all of my other frogs but are still only froglett or small juvi sized.. The frogs are about 8 months old now!!! :shock: I have frogletts that are about 1 month out of the water and almost the same size as the problem frogs.. Does anyone know what causes this???

All frogs are fat and fed daily but just don't grow

Thanx 
~Mark


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## cubby23 (Jun 12, 2006)

I can't day for sure. But have you thought of how inbred your frogs are?


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2006)

im no expert, but i think a little more info may be needed to get them (the experts) to help you properly.

what type of grow out tanks are you using, as in size? quantity of frogs in each? type of frog in each? same substrate in all of them?

were all the tads raised the same? same food? same volume of water?

just the first set of things i would check. if you have lots of breeders, you probably know better than i, but just trying to give some things to consider......


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are many different factors that could be causing the slow growth... 

On a different thought, has anyone considered that rapid growth may not be the best for the frog in the long term.... ?


Ed


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2006)

Ed said:


> There are many different factors that could be causing the slow growth...
> 
> On a different thought, has anyone considered that rapid growth may not be the best for the frog in the long term.... ?
> 
> ...


i always wondered about this. there is a fine line in small polyp stony corals that you want to achieve. if there is no growth, apparenty conditions arent right for the coral to grow/be healthy. if it grows really fast itll end up with a weaker skeletal structure. ive wondered the same about frogs. if they are up to full size in half the time of average, are their bones as strong and healthy as the average frog?


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## markc019 (Apr 12, 2005)

Well I have been breeding frogs for some time now and only have seen this in frogs that I aquired as frogletts or tad poles from other breeders/hobbiests so maybe it is a genetic thing? I have olny seen this in about 6 azureus I baught about 1 yr ago.. All my frogs are kept in sterilite containers about 8 max until they are big enough to go into there own tank ..They all have plenty of room and are not stressed they have plenty of hide spots and cover..

The problem frogs I am talking about are about 1 year old and are the size of small juvies :shock: 

they are all fat but not growing near anything I am producing..

Still don't know what is going on 
~Mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Well I have been breeding frogs for some time now and only have seen this in frogs that I aquired as frogletts or tad poles from other breeders/hobbiests so maybe it is a genetic thing?"endsnip

Stress from transport, differences in feeding regimens etc can cause this sort of issue and because it effects them early on this can have a long term effect. Differences in nutritional effects can be even seen over several generations (for an example, look at the differences in height of people since the middle ages....) 

snip "if they are up to full size in half the time of average, are their bones as strong and healthy as the average frog"endsnip

The bones are fine but what is appearing in a variety of studies is that the faster the animal grows , the shorter the life expenctancy. There can be other effects such as causing the animals to become sexually mature earlier than they should. In the long run, we could be selecting for frogs that mature at a younger age than they should. 



Ed


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## rattler_mt (Apr 15, 2005)

ive got 2 azureus that are runts. i got them at the same time as my Suri cobalts, from the same breeder, all get fed the same and my azureus are half the size of the tincs. look healthy as can be but they are runts. thought it was rather funny. the Suri's were for me and the wife wanted the azureus. funny, she hasnt even asked about them in over 3 months............that mean they are my runts now?


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## markc019 (Apr 12, 2005)

Is there anyway to improve the growth or will they stay stunted? All my frogs eat like hogs!


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

markc019 said:


> Is there anyway to improve the growth or will they stay stunted? All my frogs eat like hogs!


Variety, suppliment sparingly. Do your best not to shock or stress. I.e. disturbing the enclosure when deemed uneccessary by all others. Loud, bass noises/vibrations are unbearable to darts. Keeping the viv in a cabinet or concealed from constant veiw will make many frogs types much more comfortable and relaxed.

Too bad they wont eat dirt like little kids, would help in determining potential defficiencies in the diet.


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

i bet i know who you got them from. :lol: i think it was the food he was feeding the tads/supliments of adults. i got several from him (azureus) and they were stunted also but i sold them a while back. one never grew at all. the others grew a lil before i sold them. i actually found out later the othres were from the same guy.


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## Jay Why (Aug 27, 2005)

stchupa said:


> Loud, bass noises/vibrations are unbearable to darts.


Where's this info come from? First time I've heard it.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2006)

^ there was even a thread a while back (maybe in the lounge) about playing load music or TV in the area of the frogs. it seemd to be pretty common practice among a lot of keepers. there didnt seem to be any behavioural or physical effects from it. how can we as general hobbyest know though? id like to see some sort of data in either direction.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2006)

postpost


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Believe me, if the frogs didnt like snoop i would not have a business right now. 
They even call more when i turn the music up.
Maybe we are selecting toward individuals more adaptable to our own conditions. I crank the music, stick my head around in the viv and steal their eggs right in front of their eyes and they don`t stop breeding.
Either they have gotten used to the routine here or it just doesnt matter for the common species/morphs. I am adding a descriptor on the breeding survey as to where the tank is(calm,heavy traffic, sporadically different).
I`m one that believes that everything can be traced back to the condition of the breeders when the eggs/sperm were formed. After seeing tads form w/ nothing but coco peat dragged into their water dish it seems to me that tads/froglets do well if they have a perfect start. The lack of bacteria and coco fiber, parents waste etc. in a sterile cup could lead to nutritional deficiencies though. I have seen smaller froglets and slowing of growth for the first couple weeks because of mass rearing of different species. this coupled w/ poor tad nutrition could have lasting effects since the growth hormones shut down growth rate during tad stage. It may hinder growth rate for the subdominants permanantly by stunting whatever gland is used to regulate growth, making runts.
I think i would have seen it more here though.
I do see that some of my froglets are growing quicker than others but when the doms are removed(or subdoms gathered up and moved to the same tank) all of these problems go away and regular growth rates return. As to achieving full size, i am not sure, they all go after they hit 1 inch and never leave if that takes 6 months or more(which i cant remember happening anytime recently).
As w/ spindly there could be more than one reason or a combination, say subdom and traumatic shipping(cold,warm).


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2006)

I didnt see if anyone else put this but my best guess would be water temperature, in some amphibians the difference can be months in how fast the mature. I would check the temperature of your average speed growing tads water and then check the slow ones and change the temperature acording to the difference. Another idea would be water quality or inbreeding.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Jay Why said:


> stchupa said:
> 
> 
> > Loud, bass noises/vibrations are unbearable to darts.
> ...


Just another one of those whatcha call "common sense" type thingys.

If I can feel it in my chest/head, the frogs would be dead.

If it's unbearable to me it's always going to be 10 fold + for something not only smaller but not being accustomed to such.

Normal noise volume wouldn't kill the frog(s), but if young/vuenerable they could be stunted by shear shock/irritation of coming from a inaudible room then being housed constantly in a music filled room. In time they would adapt but by then any potential long term scars have already been scored.


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## markc019 (Apr 12, 2005)

Noise has nothing to do with growth issues!!!! This has to do with poor conditions with either the parent frogs or the tadpole raising..... Water temps could be a suspect but I keep mine around room temp or about 70 to 75 deg.. Desturbing them also has no effect on the frogs at all either. Like Aaron said I also always stick my hands in to get eggs,spray,drain and rearrange the vivs daily! This doesn't bother them in the least..

Still no answers or growth  

~Mark


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

I guess I just assume that if someone were willing to get into darts, they would/should surely be willing to provide proper living arrangments. So I more or less tried to leave it out and give an alternative. It's usually never one thing left attributable


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