# I think it's a Cobalt/azureus sold to me as a cobalt...Look



## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Sorry, I wish I had better picures. I'll try to get more later.
Ok, I bought these two frogs from a show. I can't believe I didn't notice the distinct color differences. They were sold as Cobalt Tincs. but the one on the bottom has azureus spots all around the leg and abdomin. You can see the yellow on the side of the one on the top but the bottoms sides are all blue spotted like an azureus.

I've stirred up a lot of debate against the conservationists and I feel bad for doing it and I think I was mainly just throwing stuff out there to get a response. One of the reasons why poeple say not to x breed is because of this very reason. The person I bought the frog from said that she doesn't breed them but gets them from her friend. I feel a bit slighted. I didn't really think it would just happen like that. I really didn't think many people were crossing morphs but now I wonder.
I thought I took a good look at them. I got this pair to breed but I don't want to spread mixed blood. I bet the other is a cross too but just shows more of the cobalt pattern.
What do you guys think and how would you feel if you got your frog home and realized it wasn't what you thought it was?


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

Wow Quaz.... It looks like you gave them a good home. If you like the way they look, you've got some fine pets! Personally, I don't mind the x-breeding issue, but I'm more interested in watching a pair make the "superbreed" and what the result is. However, if you got them to raise for profit, (IMO) you made a foolish purchase. You don't have the ancestry that comes from a "reputable" breeder. (Are you just gonna make something up when you unload the offspring?) If you want to watch the whole metamorphasis from tad to frogglet, thats understandable. Because you have the slightest doubt that your pair may have "mudblood", the responsible thing to do keep their offspring. If you don't have room to keep them, get another pet that likes PDF snacks or euthanise them. DON'T let the damn things loose in Florida, we got our own problems! Our green tree frogs and anoles already have enough non-natives eating their food supply! Sorry, It's just my opinion.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I notice the azureus coloration too. I would just destroy any eggs you get. It's not the frog's fault it's a "mutt." As long as it's healthy and happy, keep it for a pet. Just don't let it breed.


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## *slddave* (Jun 2, 2006)

My cobalts have black spots on blue legs/ abdomin. Can you get some closer pics?


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

in2deep
.


> DON'T let the damn things loose in Florida, we got our own problems!


That's funny you say that. I was just talking about all the exotic species in florida.
No, I hadn't planned on breeding them for profit but figured if they did breed I could've sold them.

sldave


> My cobalts have black spots on blue legs/ abdomin. Can you get some closer pics?


Yeah, but this is different than what I've seen. I'll get closer pictures. This picture was more to get a look at the Viv.

Maybe they're both male so I can keep a pair and not worry about offspring.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

It's unlikely these are hybrids as most everyone knows how the hobby feels about them, possible but unlikely. You definately need to get better pics but a few spots is nothing to worry about.


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

Cobalts normally have spotting on their legs. Even though those pics aren't that close to the frog I can tell they are normal cobalt tincs.


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

If we still cant tell by the new photo's you might want to let them have a clutch and see what offspring they throw, If they are Hybrids they will most likely throw Azureus and cobalts, and a a couple mixed. Do you know who you got them from (reply in pm).


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Nice viv setup. Kind of strange that given your interest in hybrids that you may have scored some directly but I suppose that the Lord works in mysterious ways. Please keep the offspring out of circulation if you don't mind.

Good luck and enjoy your putative tinctorozureus.

Bill


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Here he is. Notice the difference in the legs sides and lower back. I've never had a cobalt like this before. I did a little looking at any cobalt picture I could find on the net last night and I did see 1 or 2 that have more spotting like this but I don't think any were this much. I did see several forgein pictures of pairs that said cobalt pairs but they were patricia and cobalt or cobalt and powder plue and other simular morph pairs. Hmmm... Either they don't know or don't care.



























This is his buddy or sibling


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Yeah, xfrogx it was just a person at a show and I should try to find the number they gave me. They said they didn't breed these but got them from a friend.


> Do you know who you got them from


Elmoisfive


> Kind of strange that given your interest in hybrids that you may have scored some directly but I suppose that the Lord works in mysterious ways.


I know, it is kind of funny. With all the crap I was stirring up and all.


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

I did not see the streaking extend to the flanks. Guess the pic wasn't close enough :roll:


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

> Yeah, xfrogx it was just a person at a show and I should try to find the number they gave me. They said they didn't breed these but got them from a friend.


Since I have been into frogs I can remember the name, the face, the screen name etc. of every single person I have bought frogs from (10+ people). I am not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree but even I have to wonder if this isn't anything more than round two of let's stir up the tired old mixing debate. If it is, why? If it isn't please give your interesting little frogs a good home. And only one home


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

No marty... I'm done with that. It was exhausting enough for me. I'm still not too concerned with mixing. And although I'm not on the same side with all the conservative veiw points I'm done trying debate an opinion or hypothesis. I think I even had to check my morals and ethics with some of the things I've said on the board and see where I stand. I don't want to mislead or polute the hobby with xbreeds and I don't think that others should sell xbreeds and pass them off as pure. Now the question is, even if they sell them as known xbreeds what will the buyer do with them? or the person that might get them after them if they don't stay with that person?


And about the person I don't remember the name of the individual clearly but I do remember the company and I think I still have a card. I don't want to tell anyone until I talk to them or confirm that it is a xbreed.

So from what you guys can see. What do you think? This is one of the most common morphs, do they ever look this spotted and blue on the sides, legs and lower back?


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

I dont think this to be a hybrid of azureus X cobalt.... possibly 2 different cobalt locales crossed or even a similar looking morph of tinc to cobalt.

If it had been azureus X cobalt... youd have gotten a more overall cross look as opposed to bottom half azureus.. top half cobalt.


Just my 2 cent opinion.


Todd


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## *slddave* (Jun 2, 2006)

Yeah i mean it's similar to what you would find on their legs or belly, just further extended into the yellow, I too think that a hybrid would be more of a mixed coloring.


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## MartyA (Apr 18, 2006)

Well that depends, have any of you looked at tropicalexperiences tinc morphs recently? They have what they believe to be regina x azureus cross that isnt 50/50 colored...

(check out color morph 25) 

http://www.tropical-experience.nl/


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Yes but look at morph 1, FG Cobalt looks just like the suspect frog. As I said earlier i would suggest this is not a hybrid, I doubt someone would intentionally destroy their reputation by breeding and then selling these frogs as most know it would take very little time for this info to spread to most in the hobby...at least most that keep up.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

I don't think your frogs are crosses. I've seen some cobalts that had a load of blue with black spots born from the same parents as the normal form. Also, some frogs lose black spots as they get older or the spots become smaller.

On a side note, they sure have a nice viv.


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## *slddave* (Jun 2, 2006)

I recall an imitator???? that was black or just had a lack of a pattern not too long ago from a reputable frogger on this board and it for sure wasn't a hybrid. Sometimes funny things happen, but this time it just so happended to the wrong guy- the guy who was publicly promoting hybrids and saying he was going to let them loose or something ( not stirring up the old debate here ). It's just ironic and misfortunate because if these arn't hybrids few will trust that these are still pure due to the previous debate. In different hands people would praise the variety in morph. Kinda sucks how hybrid talk can taint an image on the board.............


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## MartyA (Apr 18, 2006)

I was mostly posting that reference to show that a mutt wont necessarily produce 50/50 represented offsrping.

Mark, the color on morph one still has yellow going completely down the back. I haven't spent an incredible amount of time looking at cobalts over the years but ive never seen any with blue going that far up the back. Also, this isnt a reputable breeder were talking about. This is a person (business) who bought frogs from someone else and resold them. IMO that is the best way for the original breeder to unload frogs that are potential mutts.

Also morph one is from the French Guyanna and not from Surinam which is where alot of the cobolts in the hobby are from. If it was from French Guyanna then it should have been sold as the 'Dwarf French Guyanna Cobalt'.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

There really seems to be a large color variance in single morphs. I'm not the most informed dart frog keeper but just by seeing the diversity in the different areas and the diversity in single areas it's amazing that people try to keep all the color varities from breeding. Look at all the different frogs from the sipilawini river area from that link. Do you think that each morph breeds only with it's distinct color varient? what ever. I think you guys are a bunch of racists that want to keep the frog races segrageted.

Intigrate! Integrate! Integrate! no more azureus only water fountains

And for you sldave.


> Kinda sucks how hybrid talk can taint an image on the board.............


 kinda sucks if I tried to portray an image at all. Why do I care if other people dissagree with the way I see this issue? 

I'm not x breeding frogs. I bought these two at a show. (which I'm still trying to find the information of the vender) They may be Dwarf French Guyanna Cobalts and she just said cobalts.

This frog is still a cool dart frog and it's a pet not a conservation project. I'll keep it and enjoy it. If the two breed then I'll give or sell the offspring to others who want them as pets. It seems to me that a lot of the tinctorius morphs are just blends of eachother. Those of you who really care. just buy from those who you trust don't have cross breeds. 

Also, if this is a cross morph think of how much this is happening in bigger cities accross the country. 

Well, if no one thinks they can tell for sure if this is a cobalt or another morph or a mix. then oh well. lets not get into another morality on mixing debate.


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

Quaz, please don't get upset with me. I found this in the begginer section on mixed tanks. 



> Ahh I could only wish I had the contacts to get rich people waltzing through my living room and throwing money at frog conservation....
> 
> One of the things that makes me cringe every time I see the post is when I see what kind of frog is this.. I got it as x but it looks like y...
> 
> If you can't tell what it is, and don't have a reputable origin then it probably should not be bred....


Ed wrote it and if you read enough of his posts, I'm sure you can tell he knows what he is talking about. It's not a morality issue, it's a responsibility issue. What if someone purchases your offspring trying to avoid the line breeding (inbreeding) issue?  [If you breed them and get violet frogglets let me know, I'll buy them. :wink: ]


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Yeah, I can see where Ed's coming from and you, and others too. Even though it's not that be a deal to me what the frogs look like and since they're not being taken from the wild there isn't a forest or natural species preservation issue, I see where you're coming from. It's a natural species preservation issue within captivity. I'm saying though, that the range of diversity in morphs looks like a blend from a to z with the tincs. that if a patricia and a powder blue get crossed once will it really effect the family tree if all forth coming offspring and their offspring are called patricia? (or a like senario) The more I look into the hobby the more I think that it's more and more prevalent and the more cassual collectors; not hobbiests, get and start breeding these frogs it'll be that much more important not to buy from unknown breeders if you care about keeping true natural type or what you think is natural type morphs. Again, in the above link, the last frog, the lorenzo with no yellow, that was a wild frog. What if a captive pair started giving several offspring with no yellow? would you not breed those frogs to keep the traits you think the lorenzo should have? or would you mix them in as normal? or would you consider them a lorenzo submorph and continue a line breed? And when I say you I'm not talking about any one person just whoever reading this.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Well I think most of you should lay off Quaz and answer his question on this one instead off trying for round 1500 of the mixed debate. If you want to fight that (I have too) then do that on one of those posts. His question is a valid one, as his two frogs do look very different.

Quaz, I think there is just some large diversity in the various morphs. Me and my sisters all look very different, but have the same two parents. I have two Cobalts, and one has more of the blue spotting carrying farther up the back and flanks that you usually see, but I have no doubt that they are not some hybrid, they are Cobalts. My other looks more typical as yours does. Just like humans, animals have dominate and recessive genes, and I think you simply have one more typical frog, and one that shows more variant. I dont think some one would be purposefully trying to sell off hybrids given how most of us feel about that.

On a side note, I commend you for your recent stance regarding the hybrid issue. Although I don't know if I can agree on your total viewpoint, and there are some things I wish you would more fully agree on, but I am glad you can fully appreciate the other view and see our side of it too. It irritates me when someone asks a legitimate question (such as you did) on the board and people use it as an opportunity to bring up other topics for debate, or try to publicly shame someone. Although it is HIGHLY ironic and funny that this would come up with you Quaz given resent debate, but I think you did the right thing by asking people's opinion. If you still have doubts and these frogs breed, simply do not offer them to the general public or on the board. Other than that I think you have two very pretty cobalts.


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

My cobalts look the same way. I think its because you have to figure that the reason there are so many different morphs of tincoritus is because they are all an adaptation of a central breed. All tinctorius could actually just be adapted versions of one main tinc. This can be because of seperation of territories, such as by vast deserts that were once rainforests, islands that were part of land, etc. Just look at the galapagos islands. In bio we had to watch an entire vid on the galapagos island and how all of the birds had crossbred to introduce new traits, which all happened to be different types of beaks for different types of food sources, certain feathers, etc. Territories overlap in the wild whcih generally produces cross breeds or w.e. They also could be different because of different adaptations required for certain things. But i have a strong feeling it all relates back to one main tinc morph


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Thanks webbedtoes and thanks for the couple comments on the viv. I worked hard on it. I have a friend who saw it and wants me to build one like it for them. I have a lot of fun with these tanks and frogs.

I'll find the card from the vendor or talk to the sponser of the show to get their info before I let go of any offspring. They're still pretty young and probably won't produce for several months


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ask if they didn`t sell you 2 cobalts, 1 french guiana and one surinam?
I cant tell you how many times I`ve heard 1 frog of my pair isn`t as big as the other and have come to find out they had a pair of cobalts, 1 french guiana dwarf and 1 surinam or brazilian cobalt.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Maybe I've been staring at too many frogs, but they both look like Suri cobalts to me. FGD cobalts tend to have similar thing dorsal markings but they are a consistant color over the animal... suri that are not supplimented fade to a blue/white at end of the back, but are still bright yellow on the head. Supplimented animals are yellow on the back (blue less obvious) and yellow orange to orange on the head. Brazillian cobalts always seem to be yellow to orangey on the head even unsupplimented...

Another thing to note about the cobalt populations... FGDs and Brazils are not remarkibly variable, where as the Suriname Cobalts are. The amount of yellow markings can range from the full head like Brazils typically have down to the pin striping of FGDs, even within a clutch, and variations in between. While it is typical for Suris to have yellow markings on the side rather than the blue netting, this is also not unheard of, and not a sign of a hybrid... just of some of the extreme variation. Yes, the animal is unusual... but a hybrid? That's not good enough evidence for me (especially after studying other known hybrids). Both of those animals are young (compare with the melanogaster in the pic), so their patterns are still developing, I'd be interested to see what they look like as adults before really wondering. There have been some funky looking froglets that as they aged turned into rather normal looking adults... looking at one of my own animals, her blue netting goes pretty far back up her back too... she is pure Suri.










Another study in hybrids, look up Dendrobates tinc "Agreja" - it's a hybrid between powder blues (which have similar pattern but different colors than the Suri cobalts) and azureus. What I find interesting about them, is that they consistantly in the adult/subadult animals have spotting within the dorsal markings.... but oddly enough I don't see them with the blue markings that have caused such a disturbance. 

Agreja 1
Agreja 2
Agreja 3

Interestingly enough, some of the Amopoto show this trait too... depends on which parent they take after I guess...
Amopoto 1
Amopoto 2 (both animals in photo are amopotos)
Amopoto 3 (this one takes after the azureus parent more)


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