# Sterilize leaf litter?



## Redhead87xc

I am curious as to how you sterilize leaves so that you don't bring any pests in your vivarium? I have seen some great leaves while I am out and about but do not know exactly how to sterilize them without ruining them. Anyone who knows your help would be greatly appreciated.


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## edwing206

I just put them in a big pot of water and boil them. Try to use RO/DI water. Leave them in there until the water has turned brown and them take them out and let them dry.


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## Redhead87xc

Thank you for the help. I appreciate it.


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## jon

You can also bake them for a while at 250. Though the boiling probably removes some surface contaminants as well; dirt, chemicals, etc.


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## Ed

Or simply let them become throughly dry. The other methods cause a lot of damage to the tissues of the leaves and cause them to break down rapidly. 

Ed


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## Frogtofall

Place leaves in a bowl of water and then microwave for 2 mins. Done.


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## james67

Frogtofall said:


> Place leaves in a bowl of water and then microwave for 2 mins. Done.


agreed. it also makes them a little more crispy and less rubbery.

james


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## Marc

I microwave for 2-3 minutes with just a little water to steam them.


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## edwing206

Really? Hmmm, sounds TOO easy, . 


Ed said:


> Or simply let them become throughly dry. The other methods cause a lot of damage to the tissues of the leaves and cause them to break down rapidly.
> 
> Ed


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## Ed

If you allow the leaves to throughly dry, this will kill the majority of problem pests as most don't tolerate drying too well. 

Ed


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## frogparty

i like the microwave too. In a bowl with h2o, or in between moist paper towels. 2 miutes, and done. I do a quick inspction for randoms on leaves 1st. I find a lot of cottonwood seeds and spider webs that I remove before they go in the microwave


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## jeffdart

For live leaves I rinse thoroughly with hot water then bake at 350 for 20 minutes.


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## Frogtofall

While this is probably gonna start an argument, I gotta speak my mind...

I'll respectfully disagree with Ed's post. While he's right, drying does kill off a large majority of pesky things, it doesn't kill them all. I also find no problem in letting the leaves break down a little faster b/c it will provide a nice haven for springs and such.

In my 75 gal, I've got leaves that 'nuked that have been in there for almost a year now. Still nice looking.

...Remember... *Respectfully* disagreed...


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## Ed

Frogtofall said:


> While this is probably gonna start an argument, I gotta speak my mind...
> 
> I'll respectfully disagree with Ed's post. While he's right, drying does kill off a large majority of pesky things, it doesn't kill them all. I also find no problem in letting the leaves break down a little faster b/c it will provide a nice haven for springs and such.
> 
> In my 75 gal, I've got leaves that 'nuked that have been in there for almost a year now. Still nice looking.
> 
> ...Remember... *Respectfully* disagreed...


Except that people should keep in mind that a some of the things that drying doesn't kill will also survive these assorted treatments, so I'm not sure the effort is worth the risk. 

Ed


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## frogparty

whats going to survive 2 minutes in the microwave?


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## christina hanson

I agree with the super hot water method (although the microwaving idea is a good one). If the leaves break down faster, it's cool, our tree will make more and you just add another layer over your leaf mulch. We've also started running some of the litter through a food processor to ENCOURAGE quick breakdown of the leaves, so if we're going to do that and don't have time to let the leaves dry naturally I will stick them on cookie sheets in a 250 degree F oven for about 30 minutes before chopping. 

Ed's method may be fine, but the scourge of slugs and snails we get in our tanks here in the PNW forces us to be heavy handed.

Christina


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## frogparty

Ive begun chopping up leaves and adding them to my substrate to encourage microfauna. And I agree, theres ALWAYS more leaves. Adding more never hurts anyways


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## christina hanson

frogparty said:


> Ive begun chopping up leaves and adding them to my substrate to encourage microfauna. And I agree, theres ALWAYS more leaves. Adding more never hurts anyways


Yes, encouraging microfauna is why we've begun doing it too, and it's been extremely effective, especially on a fluorite substrate. we seed the tank with a scoop of cultured springtails.

Christina


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## Frogtofall

frogparty said:


> whats going to survive 2 minutes in the microwave?


That was my thought too. I can't see any harmful fungi, bacteria or viruses surviving 2 minutes in nuke-ville.


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## Ed

frogparty said:


> whats going to survive 2 minutes in the microwave?


Coccidia... many bacterial.. and that is only if you get it hot for at least 10 minutes or more (see ScienceDirect - Journal of Hospital Infection : The killing activity of microwaves on some non-sporogenic and sporogenic medically important bacterial strains for example). If you are worried above snails etc, then lengthen the drying time or use a gentle dry heat for a long period of time. 

Ed


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## Frogtofall

Ed said:


> Except that people should keep in mind that a some of the things that drying doesn't kill will also survive these assorted treatments, so I'm not sure the effort is worth the risk.
> 
> Ed


I don't quite understand what the risk is in taking the effort to eradicate "nasties" from viv components such as leaf litter???


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## Ed

Frogtofall said:


> I don't quite understand what the risk is in taking the effort to eradicate "nasties" from viv components such as leaf litter???


Flip it around. Is the effort worth the risk reduction? The reduction in risk is small for the effort as two minutes won't significantly reduce the potential introductions by any appreciable levels. See the link I posted. 

Ed


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## christina hanson

True Ed, if we want truly "Sterile" leaf litter than the discussed methods are ineffective. 

However my interpretation of "sterilize" in this sense is to eliminate pests such as snails, slugs and sow bugs that can becomes a nuisance in the vivarium. Drying may be effective in the case of the slugs, but snails and sows are very likely hardier for obvious reasons. But hey, if your method works for you and your area and situation you are a lucky man. I would rather not go to the extra step but we have found that we have to.

Christina


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## Frogtofall

I would say it is b/c at the very least, you're killing most of the nasties. Also, reading the abstract of an article isn't exactly the same thing as reading the article itself. I didn't see any mention of Coccidia here either....

(Taken from the link Ed posted)

*Abstract*

The killing activity of microwaves of 2450 MHz frequency and 325 W, 650 W and 1400 W power on some bacterial strains was investigated. Vegetative strains of _Staphylococcus aureus_, _Streptococcus pyogenes_ Group _A, Escherichia coli_, _Pseudomonas aeruginosa_ and _Enterococcus faecalis_ and spores of _Bacillus subtilis_ and _Bacillis stearothermophilus_ in aqueous suspensions were exposed to 325 W and 650 W waves for different lengths of time. _Enterococcus faecalis_ and spores of _B. subtilis_ and _B. stearothermophilus_ were exposed additionally to 1400 W waves in aqueous and ‘dried’ suspensions. Vegetative bacteria were promptly killed in 5 min or less, _E. faecalis_ being slightly more resistant.
Bacterial spores were only killed in aqueous suspension when a 1400 W setting was used for 10 to 20 min. Bacterial spores adhering to the tube walls after the aqueous suspension was poured out were reduced in number. We assume that the conventional microwave ovens available on the market may be used for a high level of disinfection but not for sterilization, and only then if sufficient water is present.


Aren't these bacteria that affect humans??? Can PDFs get Staph infections??

Also, aren't Coccidia species specific? Would North American strains be able to infect PDFs??


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## frogparty

I read the link abstract.
A couple observations:
1. They are seeing sufficient death in most live strains at 5 min or less with microwaves at 325 and 650 watts, much lower than the standard 1100 watts most household microwaves operate at.
2. I was suprised to see that bacterial spores of some types were only killed after 10 to 20 min at 1400 watts, in aqueous solution. 

They note at the end of the article that you can achieve "a high level of disinfection, but not sterilization, and only then if sufficient water is present."

I will gladly accept this as a precautionary measure. Im not inconvenienced in any way by microwaving leaves, and in my mind its worh the 5 minutes or less to kill vegetative bacteria. 
I would bet that an hour in a pressure cooker @15psi provides better sterilization, which is a feasable alternative for household use.
I would like to see the results of 30 min in an oven at 350 degrees


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## Ed

Some types of coccidia are only killed only when exposed to live steam or straight household ammonia... 

Ed


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## Ed

Frogtofall said:


> Also, aren't Coccidia species specific? Would North American strains be able to infect PDFs??


They are not as species specific as once was suspected for example there are records of Cryptosporidium serpentis infecting anurans.. its in the literature for those who care to search. 
I pulled the first decent study comparing sterilization in a microwave that did not require specific aperatus to ensure adequate exposure to all sections of the material (there were more than a few for dental tools and like items). 


The point I was making is that sterilization is not needed for leaf litter depending on what risks you are likely to have to take. I have not aquired unwanted slugs, snails or isopods from well dried leaf litter as of yet (but I also dry mine for more than a month after collection) but I have found all three in potted plants and bromeliad cuttings from various sources. 

Ed


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## tachikoma

Also when it comes to boiling things in water, I have read before in popular science that one only needs to get a rolling boil going to sterilize things. In other words boiling for 10 minutes is no more effective than simply having the water reach a rolling boil. 

Ed do you know if this is true and if it would apply to the leaves also?


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## christina hanson

tachikoma said:


> Also when it comes to boiling things in water, I have read before in popular science that one only needs to get a rolling boil going to sterilize things. In other words boiling for 10 minutes is no more effective than simply having the water reach a rolling boil.


No, this isn't true. It will kill things that can't tolerate heat over 212 degrees, but some organisms (such as _Bacillus_ sp.) can, and to sterilize things non-chemically you would need to use a pressure cooker or autoclave to achieve necessary temps.


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## jon

Pressure cookers and autoclaves use pressure to heat water to temps greater than 212. Depending on the pressure used, the temps will be much higher or not a lot higher. Either way, 99.9% of fungi, bacteria, and other living organisms will not survive temps above 212. Which is why I use the oven at 250 for sterilizing woods, leaves, and other dead organic matter. I agree with Ed that drying the leaves thoroughly will kill most organisms, but it isn't as effective as other treatment methods.


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## Ed

Does it really matter if it is as effective as other methods? (not aimed at you Jon but a general question)

Is the goal to reduce the risk to the frogs or to the plants? 

What is the effect on the frogs of a more rapid leaf litter decomposition? Many leaf litter species in the wild utilize the various microniches formed by the different layers of the leaf litter.. more rapid decomposition/compaction/breakdown by the inverts because of these treatments changes this dynamic and can reduce or eliminate the ability of the animals to utilize the different strata thus reducing the opportunity for naturalistic behaviors. 

The rapid breakdown from the treatments and the search for a source of leaf litter that doesn't decompose pushes the hobby towards a relatively small group of leaf types (mainly magnolia and oak) because these hold up better under the treatment regimens and subsequent exposure in the enclosures. This again causes a more homogenous enviroment for the frogs, which may not be to thier best advantage. 

A final point, these treatment regimens are designed to "sterilize" the leaves but often the other decorations are not sterilized or treated to protect the frogs.. why does leaf litter rate so highly for these treatment regimens while other items are overlooked? What about the ability of wild invertebrates to access the enclosures? Wild dipterans can act as dispersal agents for coccidians or other pathogens like lungworm or hookworm larva... 

That is all I have to say on this topic. 

Ed


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## frogfreak

We have boiled our leaves in the past but recently have considered air drying.

I think there is more risk with plants, especially mosses.


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## NDokai

Ed, 
I can relate to your point of view. I have been using a lot of oak and mag leaves, steaming them in the microwave, and have, so far, been dissapointed in how quickly they are breaking down. I know the microfauna will have enough food to sustain a good population without the entire floor of the viv being covered in mush that was once leaf litter. I mainly use the large amounts of leaf litter for cover, to me, that is 90% of the purpose. I think the next few tanks I setup, I will experiment with different methods of treatment, and see what is best for leaf longevity. 
Good topic.


Nick


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## davecalk

I have a related question, maybe it should have it's own thread, but I'll post it here because it is related...

Many folks like to sweep their yards and fields for meadow plankton to add a variety to the diet of their frogs without having much of a concern of carry over of obnoxious bugs, slugs, and bacteria, while there is a concern with the leaf litter that the same food related bugs are found in. How much "risk" is there of getting obnoxious bugs, slugs, and bacteria from Sweeping and how much more of a "risk" is there from leaf litter?

Dave


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## markbudde

In response to the initial question... I either bake or boil my leaves (or autoclave them) before putting them in my viv. I have snails and slugs in one of my vivs and can assure you that taking the time to prevent an infestation will save you grief in the long run. I pulled a slug out of my viv yesterday which was about the same size as my imitators. It probably depends on where you live, but why risk it? Of course, if you are only growing pothos in your viv you might not have to worry as much, but if you have orchids or other delicate, slower growing species, a slug infestation can be devastating. Slugs will also eat your eggs. 

Snails can survive a thorough drying out (by sealing themselves into their shells) and both slugs and snails can survive CO2 bombing. I'm not sure about millipedes (luckily I haven't had an issue with them.
My two cents,
-MArk


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## jon

Ed said:


> Does it really matter if it is as effective as other methods? (not aimed at you Jon but a general question)
> 
> Is the goal to reduce the risk to the frogs or to the plants?
> <snip>


No offense taken, Ed. It's a topic of discussion, and you're right to question the motives.


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## markbudde

I forgot to add...
If you are getting leaves off of the tree (after they have turned brown of course) you have less to worry about and are probably OK just drying them out. Pests are more of a problem on leaves picked off of the ground.


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## Frogtofall

Has anyone ever tested a series of leaves to actually see what's on them? I bet it's not as bad as people probably think.


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## Marc

I do have a unusual note to add. I always soak my New Zealand sphagnum moss in water overnight before using. My next step is to microwave it for five minutes. The moss is steaming when it comes out. I have to let it cool for about 5 minutes to touch it. 

After all of this and putting it into two tanks, I notice the moss has greened up and is growing! My microwave is around 1000 watts. It was in the microwave for 5 minutes. I know the moss came out so hot I could not touch it. 

So I guess the moral is even after all this the moss can still survive. I am quite surprised.

Has this happened to anyone else?


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## Marc

Marc said:


> I do have a unusual note to add. I always soak my New Zealand sphagnum moss in water overnight before using. My next step is to microwave it for five minutes. The moss is steaming when it comes out. I have to let it cool for about 5 minutes to touch it.
> 
> After all of this and putting it into two tanks, I notice the moss has greened up and is growing! My microwave is around 1000 watts. It was in the microwave for 5 minutes. I know the moss came out so hot I could not touch it.
> 
> So I guess the moral is even after all this the moss can still survive. I am quite surprised.
> 
> Has this happened to anyone else?


Thinking this over the microwave time for this might have been as little as 2-3 minutes. Though I know the wet sphagnum came out steaming and hot.

I have read about dried sphagnum greening up and growing again, but not after micro-waving.


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## Dragonfly

I have 2 questions which this thread raises in my mind. 

The first doesn't necessarially hijack this thread, but probably will be served by its own thread:

What is killed off by drying out leaf litter, say in the month that Ed uses, and are there specific regional "nasties" we should be on the lookout - say is there something in the PNW which would make froggers up here need to use a different approach than froggers in Pennsylvania? Asking it here to direct to the thread I am starting today. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...f-litter-other-viv-components.html#post436713

The second is more regarding the slugs and snails, which I think would be a hijack: here is the link to the new thread started today as well.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...slugs-vivs-plants-adding-vivs.html#post436724


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## tclipse

Sorry for the thread necro, but I thought this was worth mentioning for anyone who searches and is wondering whether sterilizing leaves is necessary. 

I had some nemerteans (eggs? not sure how they propagate but I obviously didn't see adults) come in with a bag of leaves which were dry when I bought them, and sat for another 3-4 months in dry storage. I didn't boil/bake the leaves and the nemerteans subsequently destroyed the microfauna populations in the tanks I used that bag of leaves in. I also got some snails/slugs in those tanks as well.

The three vivs I used this bag of leaves in were the exact three that ended up infested with nemerteans/snails/slugs.... and the only differing variable from these three vivs and the rest were the leaves. 

I'm currently in the process of rebuilding these tanks from scratch so my isos/springs/FF's feed the frogs and not the worms, and so I don't lose plants or have to clean slug trails from the glass. It's all been quite the PITA. 3 minutes in the microwave could save you hours of building later. Sterilize your leaves.


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## Mitch

^^^ Agreed ^^^

I too got slugs and nemerteans from store bought leaf litter. It SUCKS having these pests... the worst ones, IMO.


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## hypostatic

Does anyone use bleach to clean their leaves? What about UV lights?


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## Rogue-Hawk

Has anyone tried freezing to partially sterilize their leaves?

I usually toss my collected bag of oak/madrone leaves in a freezer for about a month when I'm first starting a build. Then just pull out the amounts I need and give em a short steam nuke in the microwave.

Kills the bigger nasties and I'm not able to pick and choose which types of microbial life colonize my substrate fauna anyways.

Seems effective thus far..


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## FwoGiZ

I use wintered oak leaves that I let sun dried
never had a problem before


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## tim13

I bet leaves have less bacterial growth on them than one would think. For the most part they stay dry. Also, they spend most of their time under UV light from the sun. UV light rapes most microorganisms. I have boiled, baked and dried. I now just dry. Simply because you end up with the really nice fungal growth in your Viv. Everyone raves about mushrooms and such growing in their Viv. How do you think they got there? You didn't sterilize something is how. (Probably). Since I started just drying leaves I've noticed an increase in fungal growth, a bloom in springtail production in my tanks, and less breaking down of my leaves. Of course, the frogs couldn't give a rats ass. IMO pests are different to everyone. Admittedly, snails and slugs are annoying when it comes to breeding. I have a 90 gallon tank that has snails and slugs and millipedes in it. I used to spend hours trying to pick them out with tweezers. Pointless. I've got nice plants and cheap plants in the tank. They don't seem to bother any of them, and their numbers stay level. You know where I see these 'pests' all the time? On the air dried leaves I add to the tank. Just saying, maybe some of what we consider pests may actually be part of a more natural vivarium setup. They DO exist in nature after all, and they live primarily in precisely the type of environment we try to create for our frogs. Just a few thoughts, and of course my own personal opinion.


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## FwoGiZ

tim13 said:


> I bet leaves have less bacterial growth on them than one would think. For the most part they stay dry. Also, they spend most of their time under UV light from the sun. UV light rapes most microorganisms. I have boiled, baked and dried. I now just dry. Simply because you end up with the really nice fungal growth in your Viv. Everyone raves about mushrooms and such growing in their Viv. How do you think they got there? You didn't sterilize something is how. (Probably). Since I started just drying leaves I've noticed an increase in fungal growth, a bloom in springtail production in my tanks, and less breaking down of my leaves. Of course, the frogs couldn't give a rats ass. IMO pests are different to everyone. Admittedly, snails and slugs are annoying when it comes to breeding. I have a 90 gallon tank that has snails and slugs and millipedes in it. I used to spend hours trying to pick them out with tweezers. Pointless. I've got nice plants and cheap plants in the tank. They don't seem to bother any of them, and their numbers stay level. You know where I see these 'pests' all the time? On the air dried leaves I add to the tank. Just saying, maybe some of what we consider pests may actually be part of a more natural vivarium setup. They DO exist in nature after all, and they live primarily in precisely the type of environment we try to create for our frogs. Just a few thoughts, and of course my own personal opinion.


very exactly my thinking... I build mini ecosystem, the more bugs the better imo
the only thing I don't want, is something OVER invasive such as mites!
I have weird tiny white centiped like bugs.. I should get an ID on them! Looks like they eat wood tho..


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## tclipse

tim13 said:


> Just saying,* maybe some of what we consider pests may actually be part of a more natural vivarium setup. They DO exist in nature after all, and they live primarily in precisely the type of environment we try to create for our frogs. *Just a few thoughts, and of course my own personal opinion.


I do hear you, and that was the way I felt too before I had nemerteans. In an enclosed space with no predation they can (and do, IME) multiply to a point where they destroy the microfauna population. 

This could easily pose a problem for people raising young pumilio or other delicate froglets that need tons of springtails. there are quite a few articles/accounts talking about them here and on frognet.


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## Ed

tim13 said:


> I bet leaves have less bacterial growth on them than one would think. For the most part they stay dry. Also, they spend most of their time under UV light from the sun. UV light rapes most microorganisms. I have boiled, baked and dried. I now just dry. Simply because you end up with the really nice fungal growth in your Viv. Everyone raves about mushrooms and such growing in their Viv. How do you think they got there? You didn't sterilize something is how. (Probably). Since I started just drying leaves I've noticed an increase in fungal growth, a bloom in springtail production in my tanks, and less breaking down of my leaves. Of course, the frogs couldn't give a rats ass. IMO pests are different to everyone. Admittedly, snails and slugs are annoying when it comes to breeding. I have a 90 gallon tank that has snails and slugs and millipedes in it. I used to spend hours trying to pick them out with tweezers. Pointless. I've got nice plants and cheap plants in the tank. They don't seem to bother any of them, and their numbers stay level. You know where I see these 'pests' all the time? On the air dried leaves I add to the tank. Just saying, maybe some of what we consider pests may actually be part of a more natural vivarium setup. They DO exist in nature after all, and they live primarily in precisely the type of environment we try to create for our frogs. Just a few thoughts, and of course my own personal opinion.


I have enough space in my basement that I store the leaves for a year before I use them. I haven't had the leaves introduce nemerteans or snails or slugs to the enclosures. I've recieved snails and slugs from plants that I purchased. Now I'm much more careful about the plants and they get quarantined even after they are disinfected. Plants are also the most probable source of nemerteans. Dipping the plants in a bleach or other disinfecting solution only works if it can penetrate all of the areas of the plants. Plants with leaves that form tight areas (like bromeliads) are going to have areas that can't be penetrated readily by a dip, and those spots will provide protection for unwanted things.


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## johnyrocks

Boil them, very simple. I don't recomend baking them because they're already very brittle and might brake from the dry heat. It's like if they were wet they're less brittle than if it was 100 outside baking in the sun.


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## Molch

frogparty said:


> whats going to survive 2 minutes in the microwave?





Frogtofall said:


> That was my thought too. I can't see any harmful fungi, bacteria or viruses surviving 2 minutes in nuke-ville.


lots of things will survive that. Many soil bacteria make endospores, which can only be killed by autoclaving (high pressure superheated steam).

That said, these are hardly things that will hurt your frogs, and if you did kill all bacteria, your substrate would have to be colonized by them all over again in order to be useful. You need those bacteria for a healthy substrate and breaking things down.

I see value in microwaving for killing small invertebrate eggs or pests, but I doubt it affects the bacteria all that much.


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## Mitch

Molch said:


> lots of things will survive that. Many soil bacteria make endospores, which can only be killed by autoclaving (high pressure superheated steam).
> 
> That said, these are hardly things that will hurt your frogs, and if you did kill all bacteria, your substrate would have to be colonized by them all over again in order to be useful. You need those bacteria for a healthy substrate and breaking things down.
> 
> I see value in microwaving for killing small invertebrate eggs or pests, but I doubt it affects the bacteria all that much.


How quickly could they go into endospore formation? I can't imagine they could do it in seconds. If they are in endospore formation before going into the microwave then that's a whole different story...


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## Molch

Mitch said:


> How quickly could they go into endospore formation? I can't imagine they could do it in seconds. If they are in endospore formation before going into the microwave then that's a whole different story...


good point..though I assume there might always be a few endospores present. But the question is an academic one, since we're not worried about ordinary soil bacteria, but other inverts that might outcompete our feeder bugs - or do we? 

I'm still a bit fuzzy on why exactly microwave or boil soil at all...


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## Hornet

Why do we feel the need to sterilise everything? Seeing as we grow live plants in the viv which no doubt come with baceria and fungi, tryin g to sterilise 100% seems kind of pointless. I freeze my leaf litter for a month or 2 just to make sure there are no pests that can make their way in the viv but i dont bother with boiling or baking. Bits of wood and rock i rinse under hot tap water, again just to get rid of any invert pests.


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## Molch

Hornet said:


> Why do we feel the need to sterilise everything? .


we don't, really. The word sterilization, at least in the world of microbiology, implies that you kill everything, including bacteria and endospores. That's neither practical nor desirable.

When froggers say "sterilization", I believe they mean what you say: eliminate invert pests like snail eggs or mites etc, which I guess might be accomplished by boiling or microwaving.


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## Golden State Mantellas

I didn't see this discussed, but here's a thought, forgive me if this has been covered already.

Why not build out the viv, plant it, lay the "dirty" leaf litter, and CO2 treat prior to microfauna seeding?

- CO2 promotes healthy plant growth.
- CO2 treatment has been effectively used to eradicate invertebrate pests such as slugs, centipedes, milipedes, slugs, spiders, and mites.
- CO2 won't break down the cell structure of leaf litter as boiling, baking, or nuking will.

Thoughts? Or has this been covered and proven ineffective?

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/56812-building-using-co2-generator.html


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## Ed

Molch said:


> When froggers say "sterilization", I believe they mean what you say: eliminate invert pests like snail eggs or mites etc, which I guess might be accomplished by boiling or microwaving.


The same froggers who obsessively boil, bake and microwave things will without a second thought go and collect termites or isopods (or moss) and dump them into the enclosure with the frogs.... or don't quarantine the frogs and get a fecal check to see what they are carrying (and if the parasite can colonize the enclosure)

The argument is often presented as minimizing the risk to the frogs.. but when examined critically, a whole lot of effort is gone through to reduce the risk only to be tossed out the window without a second thought... 

This is before we get to the point of even being able to get the item in question hot enough to be able to kill off unwanted organisms. People talk about baking a piece of wood at x degrees for y hours but there isn't any way to determine if it has gotten hot enough inside the material to be effective as organisms that have gotten into deep cracks or crevices are unlikely to be affected by the temperatures (as an example look at how long it can take to get the center of a cut of meat up to temperatures that would prove lethal to most organisms... and this is before people understand that the wood itself acts as a barrier to the heat... 

It is kind of like the saying "a little bit pregnant"... 


Ed


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## Ed

Golden State Mantellas said:


> I didn't see this discussed, but here's a thought, forgive me if this has been covered already.
> 
> Why not build out the viv, plant it, lay the "dirty" leaf litter, and CO2 treat prior to microfauna seeding?
> 
> - CO2 promotes healthy plant growth.
> - CO2 treatment has been effectively used to eradicate invertebrate pests such as slugs, centipedes, milipedes, slugs, spiders, and mites.
> - CO2 won't break down the cell structure of leaf litter as boiling, baking, or nuking will.
> 
> Thoughts? Or has this been covered and proven ineffective?
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/56812-building-using-co2-generator.html


 
Many soil invertebrates are very resistent to CO2 poisoning so you would have to be able to seal the enclosure and let it sit for a significant time. 

I collect leaf litter in the fall and then store it for the following year so it sits dry for at least 8 months and up to a year. I've found more (virtually all of my) problematic invertebrates from plant shipments than I have from the leaf litter. I quarantine all of my plants now and use mainly use cuttings to plant the tanks. 

Ed


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## Golden State Mantellas

So then is the "CO2 bomb" method ineffective at eradicating invertebrate infestations such as snails, milis, and slugs?


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## Ed

Golden State Mantellas said:


> So then is the "CO2 bomb" method ineffective at eradicating invertebrate infestations such as snails, milis, and slugs?


It appears to work for those three (although I'm sure deep soil millipedes may be tricky) but you had extended it to include a lot more invertebrates such as mites.. Soil dwelling mites are going to be living where CO2 levels are going to be high... 

Ed


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## Golden State Mantellas

I see. Thanks for the correction Ed.

So if we are talking about a "sterile" clay substrate, would this method work for further "sterilizing" leaf litter and plants?


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## Ed

Golden State Mantellas said:


> I see. Thanks for the correction Ed.
> 
> So if we are talking about a "sterile" clay substrate, would this method work for further "sterilizing" leaf litter and plants?


As with the other methods, you have 
1) be able to penetrate all of the nooks, crannies and pockets in the material. Keep in mind that cracks or pockets may be shielded enough to prevent the CO2 from displacing the air. 

2) Eggs or resting stage invertebrates may be resistent to CO2 (keep in mind that it isn't considered a humane method of euthanasia for amphibians and reptiles due to thier resistence to CO2 toxicity and these are much much larger...). 

3) Keep it out of the light (prevents photosynthesis by the plants which could further protect organisms in tight spaces on stems and cracks of the leaves). 

Ed


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## Golden State Mantellas

As always, thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge Ed.


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## John J M

Frogtofall said:


> Place leaves in a bowl of water and then microwave for 2 mins. Done.


Mold and bacterial spores for sure and thermophiles. Probably very little that's vegetatively growing. You're probably doing something close to pasteurization but not sterilization. Only a pressure cooker will accomplish the later.


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## NorCal Frogger

edwing206 said:


> Really? Hmmm, sounds TOO easy, .


Recently failed for me. I have springtail cultures over a decade old now, so Im pretty good at keeping them. I recently made a new one with some VERY dry leafs on top of the carbon, and it became infected with mites. The leaves had been bone dry for over 9 months.


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## Ed

NorCal Frogger said:


> Recently failed for me. I have springtail cultures over a decade old now, so Im pretty good at keeping them. I recently made a new one with some VERY dry leafs on top of the carbon, and it became infected with mites. The leaves had been bone dry for over 9 months.


It is much more likely that the mites originated from any of the following, the local environment, the food offered to the springtails, or the substrate than the leaves unless the leaves are stored under humid conditions... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## NorCal Frogger

The local environment of my office seem unlikely since only one of many cultures became infected, but it is possible. The food offered to the cultures has been the same dried foods for a very long time (longer than the leaves) and offered to many cultures that have not become infected.. The other substrate is activated carbon. It is impossible to be sure but the only variable between the infected culture and the others was that I added the leaves to the newer culture.


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