# How to make plants viv safe



## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

So I just got in an order of Angraecum calceolus and Asplenium species aff daucifolium from Andy's Orchids, and I need to make them viv safe. How should I go about doing this? They have been grown on non-organic fertilizer, and the orchid is mounted on cork.

Thanks for your help,


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I recommend a steam cleaning and a three-month QT period in a grow-out tank.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Bleh... steam cleaning would kill a plant!

I agree with the 3 month growout tho.

What you do is a 5% bleach solution for 5-6 minutes, then rinse thorough with water and Dechlorinator for several minutes. when you think its rinsed thoroughly enough...... rinse some more..

Then place in your growout viv for several months to ensure any ferts , fungacides, and pesticides have worn off.. when you are ready to add toa viv... repeat that bleaching method.


Todd


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Dartfrogfreak said:


> Bleh... steam cleaning would kill a plant!
> 
> I agree with the 3 month growout tho.
> 
> ...


If you burned the plant itself, it might kill it. But you would have to test it out from various distances to get it right---use cheaper plants first, maybe.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Any steam not strong enough to burn/kill the plant isn't probably going to disinfect or clean very well. Or am I missing something???


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

I was just about to post the same thing Antone.
Your not missing something.. Im honestly wondering how anyone could think this is a good idea.

Todd


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Obviously some plants might not hold up well to it, but then bleach can hurt the plant itself, too. 

I did the steam/heat treatment with broms. It was a risk, but I put it in a plastic bag outside for a few minutes. The internal temps were well over 150 degrees when I brought them inside, and they did suffer burns, but I did not want to do bleach b/c I didn't think I could get it rinsed out all the way since it gets down deep in the cracks of the plant.

As far as the other type of steam cleaning, you would need a steamer and it's sort of a gamble. Someone else had mentioned it awhile back, but I don't know of any regulations for it. I don't think the steam would necessarily kill the plant, but it might. It would depend on whether or not you got the plant hot enough for it to wilt. 

They were Mo' Peppa neoregelias and they are still alive and pupping. 

Like I said---try it on cheaper plants, not your good ones. 

Dartfrogfreak---what's the best way to clean begonias?


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> I recommend a steam cleaning and a three-month QT period in a grow-out tank.


I actually thought that was a sarcastic joke...lol...Guess not.

I have never done more then rinse my plants. In the future, I will only go as far as to hit them with some CO2 after rinsing.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

GRIMM said:


> I actually thought that was a sarcastic joke...lol...Guess not.
> 
> I have never done more then rinse my plants. In the future, I will only go as far as to hit them with some CO2 after rinsing.


No, I read about it on another thread in another forum by someone reputable, but there weren't any regulations on how to do it right without hurting the plant. 
They commonly do this with soil.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Alot of plants will die in greenhouses if the temps get just over 100 degrees/
Whos this so called reputable person that said you can steam clean plants?
Heres the thing. Ive bleached so many broms its crazy. I have lost maybe 3 out of probably 100+ and Im sure that wasnt even the bleach... it was because the plants were in crappy shape. Bleach is fine and if done right it doesnt hurt the plants. Your steam cleaning is just an all around bad idea.. DONT do it!.. If it burns the plants here and there... why would you want to do it? BEgonias would definitely die from this no ifs and s or buts. Seriously I bet if you used steam cleaning on Begonias you could watch them die.


Again... BLEACH!

5% bleach soak the plants for about 5 minutes. Then rinse thoroughly with Dechlorinator from the fish store. When you think youve rinsed it enough.... rinse some more. Then rinse some more. Actually I rinse with tap water first then when I think its rinsed enough I rinse with dechlorinator, then I rinse again with tap water.. then I dry the stuff most the way with paper towels.



Todd


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## Qfrogs (Feb 2, 2011)

Dartfrogfreak said:


> 5% bleach soak the plants for about 5 minutes. Then rinse thoroughly with Dechlorinator from the fish store. When you think youve rinsed it enough.... rinse some more. Then rinse some more. Actually I rinse with tap water first then when I think its rinsed enough I rinse with dechlorinator, then I rinse again with tap water.. then I dry the stuff most the way with paper towels.
> 
> 
> 
> Todd


Can i ask what the dechlorinator step is for? If you rinse the plants with RO water is this necessary?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Dartfrogfreak said:


> Alot of plants will die in greenhouses if the temps get just over 100 degrees/
> Whos this so called reputable person that said you can steam clean plants?
> Heres the thing. Ive bleached so many broms its crazy. I have lost maybe 3 out of probably 100+ and Im sure that wasnt even the bleach... it was because the plants were in crappy shape. Bleach is fine and if done right it doesnt hurt the plants. Your steam cleaning is just an all around bad idea.. DONT do it!.. If it burns the plants here and there... why would you want to do it? BEgonias would definitely die from this no ifs and s or buts. Seriously I bet if you used steam cleaning on Begonias you could watch them die.
> 
> ...


I don't remember who it was that said it, it was awhile back. I would never try this harsh outdoor treatment with begonias as I did with the broms!
I know a quick burst of external steam wouldn't hurt it, but it also might not really kill anything.
I am just afraid to use bleach on one plant of mine as it's worth quite a lot. 
Do your begonias come out fine with it then?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Ive always been a fan of 5%bleach for 10 minutes, rinse, repeat. Never steam treat your plants. Steam is BOILING water, that means 212 degrees F. Your plants will die faster than Steve Irwin in a tank full of stingrays.
If you are really concerned about the sterility of your plants, its important to repeat the bleach soak several times. Many bacteria produce endospores that when dormant can withstand just about anything. Bleach included. Endospores are formed under periods of duress to the bacteria, ie changes in humidity, temperature etc. Once in an environment of constant, stable conditions, the endospores germinate and begion to replicate as normal bacteria. So spread your bleach rinses out about a week. The first quality rinse will kill almost anything, the follow up is for the really stubborn stuff.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Steam is really hot, yes, and using it is a risk, but it does not instantly kill or burn the plant if it is a quick controlled burst (unless it has very thin and fine leaves). 
Heating a fragile plant for an extended period of time-- to boiling temperature--- in a cloud of steam--yes, I'd agree that's a very bad idea. I brought it up knowing it would be talked about.
I mentioned it b/c of lack of something more natural to use on the more delicate plants.

It would seem with the bleach rinse then, that it would be better to wait to treat them until your plants are well situated for a period of time in a QT tank after moving them from one location to another, as that stress would induce the production of these endospores. I.e., after you get plants in shipping, give them the normal soap and water washing to remove external toxins/pesticides, then put them in QT for a couple weeks, then try the first bleach treatment. 
Then replace in quarantine for the remaining 2 1/2 months to allow any remaining systemic pesticides to break down, then use more soap/water on the leaves to remove the breakdown toxins from the pesticides (if they were used), then do another bleach treatment. 
Are there any plants that would not tolerate this type of regimen?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Alright, I'm gonna have to get a bit cocky to make a point here....

This is the greenhouse I ran...



















As a very serious collector in Florida, I knew lots of plant people and bc of that, very regularly received plants from private collections, botanical gardens and straight from natural habitats (SE Asia, South America etc.). This means I had to treat EVERYTHING before potting and I had no QT area. After much trial and error, I ended up with this regime...

First soak in fresh water to rehydrate plants that had been traveling for a few days. You can decide how long based on how bad the plant is. 

Next, soak plant in soapy water. I did 1 tbl spoon lemon fresh Joy to 1 gal water. Maybe 10-15 mins. 

Next was a quick dip in 5% bleach/water solution (plain old non scented Chlorox). Maybe just 5 mins. 

Then lots of fresh water to rinse away soap and bleach. Then plenty of fresh air. You could make up some dechlorinator and water to soak them in too like Todd suggested. 

This sounds like a lot but once you do it a few times, it becomes second nature. Pretty quick and worth the time. 

Some others even suggest misting cuttings with vinegar then hydrogen peroxide. You could even try misting with Isopropyl Alcohol. I know people use Isopropyl to kill aphids and other bugs directly on the plant. Just don't over do it. 

I don't mean to be offensive, but do NOT steam a plant unless you plan to kill it. Plain and simple. That is awful advice.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

earthfrog said:


> Steam is really hot, yes, and using it is a risk, but it does not instantly kill or burn the plant if it is a quick controlled burst (unless it has very thin and fine leaves).
> Heating a fragile plant for an extended period of time-- to boiling temperature--- in a cloud of steam--yes, I'd agree that's a very bad idea. I brought it up knowing it would be talked about.
> I mentioned it b/c of lack of something more natural to use on the more delicate plants.
> 
> ...


quick burss of steam will accomplish absolutely nothing. NOTHING. extended QT is UNNECESSARY, plants arent going to sweat out pesticides and ferts, as if they are externally applied, they can be easily removed, and if they are systemic, they won't leave the plant until metabolized or broken down WITHIN the plant. This poses very little if any risk to your frogs. Ive never done a QT on a plant EVER. Just bleach rinse


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

I have been using Antone's method above for several years now and it works great. I use this whenever I get plants in or when I move plants between vivs.

He's right, it takes no time to do once you get a system going. I use a series of 5 gal buckets like an assembly line...


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Antone's advice is right on the money.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> Steam is really hot, yes, and using it is a risk, but it does not instantly kill or burn the plant if it is a quick controlled burst (unless it has very thin and fine leaves).


If you aren't heating the plant hot enough to kill the plant then you aren't heating it enough to get anything that maybe hidden on the plant... so steam in this case is not a viable option unless you just want to feel like you are doing something.. 


Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Thanks guys, I see the difficulty/impossibility in incorporating this as an effective cleaning regimen now. I had never settled it in my mind (and had tried something similar once on broms, with heat outside/water in a plastic bag, to kill chytrid.)

I just have one more question though---what about the air roots of orchids? Would they be more susceptible to the bleach treatment than other plant roots?

Also, has anyone had success treating begonias with bleach without killing them?


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Ive had a ton of success on Begonias without killing them.

The only one that Ive not had success so far is SP Lita. which i cant keep alive more than a few weeks even without sterilizing.


Todd


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Dartfrogfreak said:


> Ive had a ton of success on Begonias without killing them.
> 
> The only one that Ive not had success so far is SP Lita. which i cant keep alive more than a few weeks even without sterilizing.
> 
> ...


I have had mine for months and made several good pots of it. Here's some tips for you---make frequent cuttings, take care to put new roots into the soil---needs to be very wet and very humid. It seems to need air/soil that's more humid/wet than most. 
I used a rooting hormone made from fig twig to get both of mine started. 
Do NOT bury the starts, just lay them on top of the soil---if the cut end is buried it'll rot. If it is not humid/wet enough, it will wilt in no time. 

Anyway, thanks for letting me know about the begonias. 
Now---what about bleach for orchids?


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Labs use bleach.. Its just the mainstream method for sterilizing anything from my understanding... the diffs being if its overly sensitive you may cut the time down or water down the solution a little more.



Todd


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I bleach everything that goes into a viv. even the most delicate pleurothallids hold up just fine to a 10% bleach solution.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

To clarify - the initial soak of water before the bleach solution is very important. Especially for sensitive species! The plant may be very thirsty when you get it - so the initial soak of water will be quickly absorbed, which is what you want. Then after the plant has absorbed all the water it can - the bleach solution comes into play. That way the bleach has less of a tendency to be completely absorbed into the sensitive plant since it's already had it's fill of water.

Did that make sense?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

That's exactly why I do it. Makes sense to me.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

I also would like to add. that soaking the plant in water for a bit before the bleach solution is important even when you have been growing the plant your self for awhile as it will make it less likely for the plants roots to drink up any of the bleach solution.



Todd


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## andyrawrs (Aug 16, 2008)

What about very sensitive gesneriads? Granted a healthy plant should like a pre-bleach soak but it seems to me some of the more sensitive gesneriads would get VERY soppy after the fresh water soak to the point of tearing or infection. Air out then bleach? CO2 bomb? haha

Just a general question, does the CO2 method work with viruses? Granted I'm not at all familiar with the metabolism of viruses and don't know if they undergo respiration...

How does bleach work exactly in terms of disinfecting? This isn't sterilization, I don't think; that would involve some more extreme methods (autoclave, pressure boiler, etc.) 

There's also some discrepancy in the use of the word "bleach." From my understanding it's just a compound that is a good oxidizer. I believe ozone is used as bleach in some parts of Europe. Regardless, what action does bleach take to destroy pathogens? Like dissolve cell wall (bacteria) or proteins, or prevent some part of the reproduction process like an antibiotic? 

Sorry if the questions are dumb haha


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A bleaching agent is different than bleach (although bleach is a bleaching agent). Bleach is a solution of sodium hypochlorite. It functions by disrupting organic matter through oxidation. See Sodium hypochlorite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

No CO2 does not work on viruses unless you count killing the host. CO2 doesn't even work on all invertebrate fauna well.. for example nemerteans are very tolerant to anerobic conditions and CO2 may simply cause resistent eggs to diapause until conditions improve.


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