# Unknown death



## bueller (Jan 12, 2013)

I had 4 redeyed tree frogs, now 3. I got them as juveniles 2 months ago. I discovered one buried in the moss dead. She was the largest one just over 2" n fat. No symptoms were shown. Out hunting one night dead the next. And others look healthy eat well, sleep well. I gut load my crickets and dust once a week. I recently switched them to large crickets dunno if she over ate or couldn't pass them, but the smaller ones are fine. Terrarium stays around 77 during the day and 70 at night. And between 70-90% humidity throughout. I make sure to completely clean enclosure every weekend. I'm just confused.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

We can't exactly tell from that little information. The exact cause of the death could have been from many different causes such as impaction, infection, ect. 
In order to give an accurate guess, you need to supply us with pictures of their environment and of the other three frogs, and of the corpse.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Could you post a picture of their enclosure? Also pictures of the remaining frogs and of the dead frog if possible.


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## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

Froggie AIDS. That's my medical professional opinion. 

But in all seriousness, I'm sorry for your loss.


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## bueller (Jan 12, 2013)

Unfortunately I only have a phone currently and it wont let me upload pics. My frogs n enclosure can be seen on Facebook though. I'm Chris Ferris in Ohio n profile pic is my dogs with glowing eyes. Sorry I hate Facebook but as of now its the best I can do for photos


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Why are you only dusting the crickets once a week? 

What are you using to "gut load" and what are you trying to get it to do? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Treefrogs can be very sensitive to cleanliness of their enclosers, or exposure to any cleaning chemicals used in the room they are in.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> Treefrogs can be very sensitive to cleanliness of their enclosers, or exposure to any cleaning chemicals used in the room they are in.


Not really any worse than most other frogs or amphibians..... A number of common treefrogs are actually much more hardy than you are proposing... for example off the top of my head...cuban treefrogs, green treefrogs, barking treefrogs.......... and there are many more..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## bueller (Jan 12, 2013)

I use flukers high Cal cricket diet & flukers orange cubes. I know they sensative to cleaning products I rinse all plants,waterfall,vines off with hot water twice n waterfall uses distilled water. Glass is cleaned rinsed soaked up then rinsed again with distilled water soaked up n discarded. I'm a novice but trying to do it the best I can


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bueller said:


> I use flukers high Cal cricket diet & flukers orange cubes. I know they sensative to cleaning products I rinse all plants,waterfall,vines off with hot water twice n waterfall uses distilled water. Glass is cleaned rinsed soaked up then rinsed again with distilled water soaked up n discarded. I'm a novice but trying to do it the best I can


Again, why are you dusting once a week... 

what are you trying to accomplish with the gut load? If you are trying to modify the crickets calcium to phosphorus content how long are you feeding them the gut load before you feed them to the frogs? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

How do the other frogs look. Does their skin look healthy? Their bellies and the undersides of their legs?

What are you dusting the crickets with?

Here are two threads about gut loading crickets:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/68887-gut-loading-crickets-need-recipe.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/79133-gut-loading.html


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I checked out your pictures. I think the tank looks good. The only possible concern I see is the moss. Do you feed crickets in a bowl (or move the frogs to a feeding bin) or do you let them loose in the tank? If the crickets are loose in the tank, it's possible that your frog got a belly full of moss.


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## Dartfrogcaretaker (Oct 18, 2012)

I also have 2 red eyes that I keep in a 20 g tall tank. I dust my crickets and also use the gut load (as well as some greens and pieces of potato) and I havent had any problems. I have heard that the high humidity inside of the tank will make the red eyes much more susceptible to some kind of bacterial infection. I try to keep the humidity in my tank at about 60 - 70%. 
Let me ask this as well, do you know for a fact that she was actually feeding?
Also I would suggest isolating the remaining 3 frogs and giving the tank a good cleaning. Your sterilization methods seem to be legitimate but with so many airborne organisms floating around something could easily contaminate the tank by just opening the lid. (Uncommon but it could happen) 
There are just so many things that could have gone wrong it will be very hard without seeing the frog it self. And even then it might still not be possible to determine the cause.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Forgive me if I missed it, but I'd also be curious to know whether you bought these frogs as CB or WC?

-Pat


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartfrogcaretaker said:


> I I dust my crickets and also use the gut load (as well as some greens and pieces of potato) and I havent had any problems.


If you are using a high calcium gut load in addition to potatos and greens then you should just toss the high calcium gut load into the trash. The crickets will avoid eating the gut load as much as possible and you won't make any significant change to the nutritional profile of the crickets. They will eat the greens and the potato instead (and each other). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

so is it being suggested that "greens" and such not be used which will, of course, result in the only other food option being ingested???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> so is it being suggested that "greens" and such not be used which will, of course, result in the only other food option being ingested???


It is well established (in multiple studies) that high calcium foods for crickets not only are unpalatable to the crickets to the point where they will consume anything else if given the least amount of opportunity, but that they start to kill the crickets after 48 hours (less than a day if water isn't readily available)..so you need to feed the crickets only on the high calcium gutload, supply plain water (not potatos, greens, oranges, or even things like cricket gel).... 
Either offer the crickets a variety of greens and a decent source of protien (like organic chicken mash) along with a water source (and in this case you can use oranges, potatos, carrots etc) or you feed them the high calcium gut load and plain water. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dartfrogcaretaker (Oct 18, 2012)

Ed,

Are you saying it is better to use the chicken mash. The way I read your post it sounded as if the studies you referenced found the high calcium gut load to sometimes kill the crickets and to "throw it in the trash" but then said to either use chicken mash or gut load. I'm confused.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Its either one or the other. If you offer the high calcium gutload and other foods/cricket gel they will refuse the gutload.

Edit: the key from what i gather is that either way can be successful; its all about the methods/timeframe.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartfrogcaretaker said:


> Ed,
> 
> Are you saying it is better to use the chicken mash. The way I read your post it sounded as if the studies you referenced found the high calcium gut load to sometimes kill the crickets and to "throw it in the trash" but then said to either use chicken mash or gut load. I'm confused.


Point of clarification.. if the crickets are eating high calcium gut load as intended it doesn't sometimes kill crickets... *It does kill crickets starting after 48 hours.. and the crickets have to be fed it for at least 48 hours to modify the nutrional level of the cricket. *If you offer it with any other form of food for the crickets, the crickets will not eat it so you are wasting your money as well as thinking your providing good nutrition to the animals, when you are not. It is use one or the other as using both at the same time is useless. 
Chicken mash (organic) is a good source of protein and other nutrients to get the cricket back to base line. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dartfrogcaretaker (Oct 18, 2012)

Ed said:


> Point of clarification.. if the crickets are eating high calcium gut load as intended it doesn't sometimes kill crickets... *It does kill crickets starting after 48 hours.. and the crickets have to be fed it for at least 48 hours to modify the nutrional level of the cricket. *If you offer it with any other form of food for the crickets, the crickets will not eat it so you are wasting your money as well as thinking your providing good nutrition to the animals, when you are not. It is use one or the other as using both at the same time is useless.
> Chicken mash (organic) is a good source of protein and other nutrients to get the cricket back to base line.
> 
> Some comments
> ...


Thanks Ed. Point taken and cricket food has been changed.

James


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

papajuggalo said:


> Its either one or the other. If you offer the high calcium gutload and other foods/cricket gel they will refuse the gutload.
> 
> Edit: the key from what i gather is that either way can be successful; its all about the methods/timeframe.


Correct, either method will work, both require at least a 48 hour period.. the calcium gut load requires temperatures close to 80 F, 48 hours and nothing else the crickets would want to eat. 

Ed


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