# How cool does fresh FF culture mix have to be before adding them?



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Sorry for the very long winded title... Just wondering when I can safely add the FF's into a freshly made culture mix... I am working with melanogaster for this culture if it helps. Thanks! I have been waiting until i feel no heat(next morning).

JBear


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Jbear,

I microwave my cultures for 3 1/2 mintues, so they come out very hot. The cultures don't need to cool down completely to room temps before using, just so they are warm to the touch.

Good luck! Richard.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ what he said....





I use hot tap water, not MW but same approach. Hasnt been an issue with the worry of killing or sterilizing the FF


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I never heat my cultures. I add either vineger or lemon juice to the water before mixing and they are ready immediately for flies.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks guys! I always end up making my cultures in the middle of the night, and then adding the flies in the morning. I appreciate the help.

JBear


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

I use hot tap water. I let them sit for 5-10 min and add flies. My cultures boom in about 7 days.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I boil distilled water, and add that to the mix. I stir it and mash it with a fork. After being shown an alternative to excelsior and coffee filters, I have been using toilet paper rolls sunken into the culture mix. This method has produced far better than the other methods, and are far cleaner and easier to get flies out. I hate the excelsior falling out and getting into the dusting container and sometimes into the tank...LOL! 

JBear


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Hmm, I feel like the toilet paper rolls would not have enough surface area for all the flies I get in my cultures. I guess I could try it. Thanks.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

kinison said:


> Hmm, I feel like the toilet paper rolls would not have enough surface area for all the flies I get in my cultures. I guess I could try it. Thanks.


The first boom happened yesterday in one of the started culters. I will try to get a pic before the millions escape... Trust me the larvae/pupae attach themselves to the roll and the sides of the plastic culture tub. and the adults just walk all over and eat all day at the bottom. The inside of the roll is where they really build a large cluster of developing pupae, but also at the base of the outside of the roll... I hope it works as well for you as it has for me!

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

These are from today, just a minute ago... 

JBear


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Intersting. Think I'll give this a try. Thanks JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

PantMan said:


> Intersting. Think I'll give this a try. Thanks JBear


I am glad to help!!!

I learned this technique from *Gamble*( http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members/gamble.html ) here on DB. I had the pleasure of meeting him recently, and consider him a great resource of info and help! As well as a heck of a nice guy! I am very thankful he showed me this, and now my mom is using the same method with equally great results. 

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As for temperatures it does depend on the temperatures you normally rear your flies.. 

see HOW HOT MALES COMBAT STERILITY -- Phillips 207 (16): i -- Journal of Experimental Biology 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I boil distilled water, and add that to the mix. I stir it and mash it with a fork. After being shown an alternative to excelsior and coffee filters, I have been using toilet paper rolls sunken into the culture mix. This method has produced far better than the other methods, and are far cleaner and easier to get flies out. I hate the excelsior falling out and getting into the dusting container and sometimes into the tank...LOL!
> 
> JBear




I'm going to have to give that a try!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I am glad everyone is willing to try it for themselves! 

Since the one culture is becoming too saturated, I had to make another new one. I decided, as a means to optimize surface area and increase the places the pupae could attach and "hatch", I would go with a "double barrel"! I think this will help to make cultures last longer...(Not that there has been a problem, I just think too much...) 

JBear


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I am glad everyone is willing to try it for themselves!
> 
> Since the one culture is becoming too saturated, I had to make another new one. I decided, as a means to optimize surface area and increase the places the pupae could attach and "hatch", I would go with a "double barrel"! I think this will help to make cultures last longer...(Not that there has been a problem, I just think too much...)
> 
> JBear


Temp wise i just let it get to room temp before adding flies, but many suggest letting the culture sit overnight after adding the yeast.

In terms of using double rolls of cardboard, ive never used this method, and id be interested in seeing how it works out but im not sure if it will work, bc after some time, the cardboard does collapse into the medium after awhile and having TWO rolls may cause it to soak up too much of it and ruin the culture. If i were u id keep it status quo right now and use one and then do a 2nd culture as an experiment using the two rolls and see if it produces the same yield as the single roll for the short AND long term.

Great idea tho, nice way to take it a step further then what ive done ... has me wondering what the potential results will be. Keep us posted as to ur findings J.

Nick


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I am glad to help!!!
> 
> I learned this technique from *Gamble*( http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members/gamble.html ) here on DB. I had the pleasure of meeting him recently, and consider him a great resource of info and help! As well as a heck of a nice guy! I am very thankful he showed me this, and now my mom is using the same method with equally great results.
> 
> JBear


Who wouldve thought that a simple, innocent idea given as a helpful tip could cause so much interest! lol


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

kinison said:


> Hmm, I feel like the toilet paper rolls would not have enough surface area for all the flies I get in my cultures. I guess I could try it. Thanks.


Ive never had a problem with the surface area, and as the pic shows; they do group inside the roll for some reason...(maybe bc its "darker: in there;not to mention higher humidity?)


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Hmmm... I always believed toilet paper was too expensive. Now there may be a way to get some extra use out of it! Lol! We go through tons here!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks for sharing your perspective Nick! I have about 5 cultures going right now, and only 1 is using the "double-barrel" technique. I will be sure to keep those interested informed on the results. Obviously, with pics included, LOL! 

JBear


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## GeorgiaB (Apr 23, 2009)

Interesting, never though of it. Guess this is just one way of taking recycling and reusing further  I'm not sure I go through enough toilet paper though haha... keep us updated on the double roll, has it dried out the culture any further since cardboard wicks water??

Thanks,
Georgia


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> Hmmm... I always believed toilet paper was too expensive. Now there may be a way to get some extra use out of it! Lol! We go through tons here!



Exactly! Thats why i started using them! lol ... im glad i could pass along the info to other froggers. Hopefully it works out as well as it has for me and J. (and his mother ... lol)


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

All is going great still with the TP roll method of culturing! I do have some mold, but it hasn't bothered the production.(What are the concerns about mold in cultures? Thanks!) I took some update pics to share, so here goes...

JBear


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

jbherpin said:


> All is going great still with the TP roll method of culturing! I do have some mold, but it hasn't bothered the production.(What are the concerns about mold in cultures? Thanks!) I took some update pics to share, so here goes...
> 
> JBear


The problem with mold is that it can over grow and completely snuff out the fly production.

One thing that I noticed in looking at the photos is that all of the pupation seems to be taking place down at the base of the tubes and at the base of the glass. Most of the time that I see maggots in my cultures, they are climbing all over the glass with casing being spread out all across the glass surface. The congregating that I am seeing in the photos shows them all at the bottom which tells me that there is likely to be too much drying going on. I'm speculating that the maggots are trying to concentrate as low as they can to keep in the humid zone. It may also be that they don't prefer to crawl around on the dry absorbing surface of the tube, but if it were just that, you would see them congregating at the bottom of the tube only while they would continue to be crawling all over the surface of the glass. 

Do you have any data that can compare fly production with the tubes vs. fly production with other media such as excelsior or spanish moss?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

davecalk said:


> The problem with mold is that it can over grow and completely snuff out the fly production.
> 
> One thing that I noticed in looking at the photos is that all of the pupation seems to be taking place down at the base of the tubes and at the base of the glass. Most of the time that I see maggots in my cultures, they are climbing all over the glass with casing being spread out all across the glass surface. The congregating that I am seeing in the photos shows them all at the bottom which tells me that there is likely to be too much drying going on. I'm speculating that the maggots are trying to concentrate as low as they can to keep in the humid zone. It may also be that they don't prefer to crawl around on the dry absorbing surface of the tube, but if it were just that, you would see them congregating at the bottom of the tube only while they would continue to be crawling all over the surface of the glass.
> 
> Do you have any data that can compare fly production with the tubes vs. fly production with other media such as excelsior or spanish moss?


Dave, 
I use coffee filters and plastic mesh when I do not have any TP rolls around, and I have not noticed any difference in production between the 3. Also, eventually the maggots do pupate on the cardboard/sides of the container. So to answer, NO I personally have not witnessed a difference in production when using that method compared to the others.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Gamble said:


> Dave,
> I use coffee filters and plastic mesh when I do not have any TP rolls around, and I have not noticed any difference in production between the 3. Also, eventually the maggots do pupate on the cardboard/sides of the container. So to answer, NO I personally have not witnessed a difference in production when using that method compared to the others.


Cool, I didn't mean to throw cold water on this technique, not having tried it my observations are likely to be all wet. It is good to know that there isn't any difference in production when compared to other methods.

Hope you all have a happy new year!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

davecalk said:


> Cool, I didn't mean to throw cold water on this technique, not having tried it my observations are likely to be all wet. It is good to know that there isn't any difference in production when compared to other methods.
> 
> Hope you all have a happy new year!


Happy New Year to you too! I wanted to add that the pics I submitted were intended to show the highest concentration of pupae. They are all over the sides of the culture as well. I will take some more pics and post to show you(all). 

As for the mold. I find that it falls off the media, and is easily removed. After I took out most of the mold(the mold that had dislodged), I used a spray bottle set for stream flow, and shot the media on the outside edges of the culture. I will let you know if this helps to combat the mold, but as stated, it has not caused any problems thus far, and I am on my 3rd "boom" from the first started culture. The TP roll is still holding up well, and the flies are just crawling all over. I am going to have to start a new culture tomorrow!

Thanks to all!

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Culture update pics: These should show how the pupae spread out to all sides of the culture and not just congregate at the base of the tp rolls.

JBear


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## packer43064 (Nov 30, 2010)

Nice culture. It seems some people don't like the excelsior because it can fall into their tanks when pouring the flies into the tank. This is another way to go about not having to use excelsior. I have no problem with excelsior, then again I just feed the fish the flies. lol


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

davecalk said:


> Cool, I didn't mean to throw cold water on this technique, not having tried it my observations are likely to be all wet. It is good to know that there isn't any difference in production when compared to other methods.
> 
> Hope you all have a happy new year!


No worries! Just giving my perspective since u haven't tried it yet. Just throwing u some info.

Happy NY to u also ... thx

PS. ONE thing I have noticed is mite issues bc my cultures r still producing well past the 30 day mark (sometimes closer to 2mo) and I didn't want to waste the cultures but it looks like the mites win, gotta throw em out after 30 days!


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

this is a great idea. the excelsior is extremely irritating for me falling around all the times, and i keep having problems w/ the flies pulling coffee filters down into the goo too quickly. its got me thinking ... next time i buy a 20 box of high life bottles, perhaps those thin cardboard slats that separate the bottles in a grid are going to be ideal. there's never a shortage of them at my house


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## packer43064 (Nov 30, 2010)

Question. I've heard quite a few people saying that the excelsior annoys them because it falls into the tank when feeding. My question is how does ths happen? Don't you just tip your culture into the tank and let them bounce off. If you made the culture it's not hard to make the excelsior into a ball somewhat and stick it into your media. Just asking here.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

packer43064 said:


> Question. I've heard quite a few people saying that the excelsior annoys them because it falls into the tank when feeding. My question is how does ths happen? Don't you just tip your culture into the tank and let them bounce off. If you made the culture it's not hard to make the excelsior into a ball somewhat and stick it into your media. Just asking here.


It happens to me when I tap out the flys into my dusting container. Then I have to pick it all out before I pour the dusted flys into the viv.

BTW JB - I got some Turkish Gliders in the mail today from Ron @ Alpha Pro Breeders, so if ur interested in some once I get some cultures going, let me know


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## packer43064 (Nov 30, 2010)

Gamble said:


> It happens to me when I tap out the flys into my dusting container. Then I have to pick it all out before I pour the dusted flys into the viv.
> 
> BTW JB - I got some Turkish Gliders in the mail today from Ron @ Alpha Pro Breeders, so if ur interested in some once I get some cultures going, let me know


Already promised another member to buy some flightless mels, curlywing and the turkish gliders. Thanks for the offer though. I just need Hydei and golden Hydei. Alpha pro breeders has the Hydei. Just need to purchase them.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

packer43064 said:


> Already promised another member to buy some flightless mels, curlywing and the turkish gliders. Thanks for the offer though. I just need Hydei and golden Hydei. Alpha pro breeders has the Hydei. Just need to purchase them.


Lol ... that was to JBHerpin ... sorry


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## packer43064 (Nov 30, 2010)

LOL. I made a wanted thread for FF's a bit ago and I thought you were offering. lol


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Gamble said:


> It happens to me when I tap out the flys into my dusting container. Then I have to pick it all out before I pour the dusted flys into the viv.
> 
> BTW JB - I got some Turkish Gliders in the mail today from Ron @ Alpha Pro Breeders, so if ur interested in some once I get some cultures going, let me know


That would be very nice of you! I will trade some springs for a starter when you get them going. THANKS!

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Did anyone end up adopting this method? What were your results? I am still using the same method, but with a bit of variation. If there is any interest I will post some pics...

Thanks!

JBear


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

Just saw this thread for the first time, I'm going to give it a try as my coffee filters get floppy quickly and the excelsior is often maddening when trying to retrieve stray threads from the supplement cup with swarming ff trying to escape.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

bristles said:


> Just saw this thread for the first time, I'm going to give it a try as my coffee filters get floppy quickly and the excelsior is often maddening when trying to retrieve stray threads from the supplement cup with swarming ff trying to escape.


I will take pics of a culture with my new TP method in a few! Glad you like!

JBear


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## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

You don't have to use TP rolls.... you can use any cardboard, just so you dont go trying to use up more TP than usual. lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bristles said:


> Just saw this thread for the first time, I'm going to give it a try as my coffee filters get floppy quickly and the excelsior is often maddening when trying to retrieve stray threads from the supplement cup with swarming ff trying to escape.


Keep the cup clean (wash out every few uses) and dust the cup first as that prevents the flies from climbing the sides.


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## WONTON SALLY (Jun 26, 2011)

Ive used media from saurian.net and Josh's frogs, i have never boiled water and added it or vinegar or yeast and had great results. so what does using vinegar,boiling water and yeast due to the FF cultures. the only thing i discovered which sped up production was keeping them in 78degrees ambient temps as opposed to 72 ambient temps.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Depending on the media used boiling water may be used to cause even mixing of the media, as a secondary use, boiling water or microwaving the culture prevents mite colonization from the media or fungal contamination. 

With respect to yeast.. brewer's or nutritional use is added to increase protein levels 
with respect to activated yeast or live yeast it shortens the time to egg deposition and/or reduces the risk of contamination by active competition. 

Some people believe that the addition of vinegar to reduce the pH of the media reduces the risk of fungal contamination.


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## WONTON SALLY (Jun 26, 2011)

sweet, thanks for the info.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Here is a pic of my revised method.(D. hydei) The Hydei tend to destroy the tp rolls much faster than Melanogaster... When the tp gets too degraded I add new "slats" into the media.

JBear


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