# Can frogs eat too much?



## Dartolution

Just wondering because one of my juvies (8-9months estimated) is crazy... He is so fat from eating hydei and melanogaster twice today and keeps huffing them down like there is no tomorrow... 

Looks like he's swallowed a marble!


----------



## Pumilo

Yes, they can. The vast majority of frogs in the hobby are considered obese.


----------



## Dartolution

Lol ... Am I going to have to worry about his stomach exploding or something ?


----------



## yours

You guys don't know what FAT is, until you have had White's -- "Dumpy" -- Treefrogs. Now THOSE guys are prone to Obesity, and yet I cannot STARVE the porkers out!

Just balance it out, cut back if you need to. DIET the bugger a lil'....


----------



## Pumilo

I've never heard of that happening. Ed would be the man with the answer to that.
Frogs can swell and die from impaction and water retention from a bacterial infection.


----------



## Dartolution

Bac infection from excessive eating ?


----------



## WendySHall

No...none of those are from overeating.
Impaction - they have an internal blockage caused by something they've eaten.
Water retention - something is physically wrong which hinders their ability to shed water.
Bacterial Infection - is an infection, just like in humans.


----------



## Pumilo

Thank you for clarifying Wendy. I guess I was a little hazy there. The only thing I'd want to add is that a bacterial infection can cause water retention, making your frog swell up like a balloon.


----------



## Ed

Obese frogs are also known to have fatty livers which means that the liver is becoming damaged which in turn can affect the frog's ability to osmoregulate. 
Kidney and liver damage is also possible from overeating since it is possible for the frog to over consume the fat soluble supplements (since flies retain more supplement due to thier small size and morphology than crickets) resulting in overdoses. 

Fat deposits in the body cavity can also infiltrate other organs reducing thier ability to function resulting in long-term damage to the frogs. 
Fat frogs should not be considered healthy. 

Ed


----------



## MD_Frogger

See sig and the following thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/64831-fat-frogs.html


----------



## Dartolution

Lol he's not fat just to clarify just is eating so much!!! I guess because he's a juvie? 

He must have taken a dump because today he is back normal size.


----------



## Ed

Dartolution said:


> Lol he's not fat just to clarify just is eating so much!!! I guess because he's a juvie?
> 
> He must have taken a dump because today he is back normal size.


This does not mean that the frog isn't obese nor that it doesn't have damage from being obese. 

Ed


----------



## Dartolution

Haha I'm aware Ed. Thank you for your concern. 
He's a juvie. And still needs to gain weight. I just h
Think he was being a glutton ! Pig! 
I'll try to post pictures later today


----------



## frog dude

What kind of frog is it?


----------



## Dartolution

Azureus. 
He is a pig... Put termites and hydei in and he's eaten so much again he looks like he's swallowed a marble! 
He doesn't know when to stop!


----------



## KeroKero

If you're still feeding him twice a day at 8-9 months old he can still be obese! Man, my frogs must be living the hard life since they are only fed 2-3x a week even at that age. These guys are hard wired still to eat as much as they can when they can so their appetite isn't any judge of how much they SHOULD be having. Will they always act like they are starving to death? Yes. Can you easily be feeding him too much at one sitting? Yes.

Another note... at that size I usually can't see a big difference between before I fed them and after. Swallowing a marble isn't what they should look like long or short term, so pics may be helpful in seeing if we're taking you a little too literally. When you said fat we thought you actually meant fat.


----------



## Dartolution

You know, I hadn't thought about it that way... 
"hard wired still to eat as much as they can" 

Perhaps I definitely am feeding too much then. 

By fat I mean fat after they eat. They will eat UNTIL they look like they've swallowed a marble. 

I will try to take some pictures ASAP. 

After a day or so they no longer look like they've swallowed a marble. 
It's just during feeding. 
I don't feed twice a day, just once in a while I have before. They mostly are fed daily or every other day as my schedule allows, or until they no longer look like they've swallowed marbles! Haha

As far as them being obese, I don't think they are obese. Just pigs. 
So I'll cut down on the amount I feed and try to get some pictures.


----------



## KeroKero

They would probably eat until they looked like 6 marbles given the chance!

Frog: But I'm staaaaaaaaaaaaarving!!
You: But I just fed you!
Frog: But look they are aaaaaaaall gone!
You: Fine, you do look pitiful... *tosses in more flies*
Frog: GET IN MY BELLY! *nom nom nom*
You: Feel better you little piglet?
Frog: But I'm staaaaaaaaarving! Can I have more?
You: I JUST FED YOU TWO SECONDS AGO!!
Frog: But look at my adorable toes! Aren't they adorable? FEED ME!

Learning how to feed by telling body condition is a tricky thing to learn. I feed the frogs like fish... I feed them as much as a ball of the food items would equal the size of their eye (works for shoebox to 10g tank, larger than that you have to increase it to take into account the size of the tank). If you have a goal in body condition it will help you judge how well you're doing (belly doesn't count, that fluctuates per meal), then you just adjust how many meals you give... smaller meals more often is better than larger meals the same amount. Also helps you keep your proportions straight, you get used to feeding a little per frog (it's surprising to people how few flies it can actually take), and just adding a feeding is easier than trying to add or take away from the bigger feedings once you have a "hand for it".


----------



## Dartolution

Hahahaha hahahaha that is exactly how it went! 

Well, how do I tell (excluding the pot belly from injecting micro fauna, flies, and termites) that they are a healthy weight?


----------



## KeroKero

I don't have a quick and easy answer, and I don't have any good pics to really show it... it's something I've been thinking about for a while and really need to get out and illustrate. It's based of the idea of scoring body condition based on physiology, how the animal carries fat, and how their natural life cycle in the wild may play a part. I had an idea about this before learning that this was an actual technique used in the animal nutrition field. 

PDFs, like most frogs, have fat distributed not like a coating just inside the skin (which you see more often with people), but more as fatty pads distributed in and around organs. This is one of the reasons people have a hard time judging obesity in frogs because they think it will look like a fat person but they don't. Their legs are the last part to get fatty it seems, and they are more likely to develop obvious fat pads on their belly (frog boobs) and jowls just above the shoulder (this can make their eardrum more obvious). If viewed from above the frog isn't generally the same width around the shoulders down to the hip area, but instead is distended like a balloon there are a few options - very fat frog, a major infect causing bloat (you'd notice it behaving differently, this is uncommon), or a female full of eggs. Overwieght frogs can be hard to sex because it hides a lot of the diagnostic shape of a mature animal (both bloated like a girl). Sometimes it's even hard to tell when a girl has even laid. 

Legs are what I primarily look for in long term condition... an underweight frog recently fed will have a big belly, but thinner, stick like legs if it's been starved. Unless severly obese, a healthy frog and a fat frog have similar sized, muscular legs. In severly obese you'll see fat along the thighs - that's REALLY bad. There are a couple of other physiological areas to look, but they can vary by species, population, and sex so I try not to bring that up too early in learning about it. People bring up bony backs a lot, but in the larger tinc morphs (females of the giant morphs and especially citronellas for some reason) this can actually be normal in a completely healthy animal.

Many PDFs are seasonal so gaining and losing some weight during the year isn't a bad thing, and a swing back and forth between the thin side of healthy to the thick side of healthy is good - just a little fat around the middle often burned off with intense breeding and/or to get them through a dry season. It's just the line of what is healthy is either not well known, or very blurred in this hobby.


----------



## Dartolution

Very interesting! 
That is my concern, I have been judging by the back. However as you mentioned "boney" appearing backs seem to be normal in larger tincs. 

My frogs legs look very proportional to their overall body physiology. 

Just when they eat do they look bloated/very full however.

I am not noticing frog boobs (hilarious btw) or jowls. 
So based on your description mine seem to be in a normal/healthy range of weight. 

They have been being camera shy lately! But as soon as I can coax them out again I'll shoot some images. 

You mentioned citronellas having extra boney backs? Is this more common in one sex than the other or prevalent in both male and female? 

Frogs being ectotherms, does temperature play a part in how the frogs metabolize foods and how it is stored? 
Metabolize yes, but stored I'm not too sure of considering most ectotherms have a fairly wide range of temperatures metabolizing proteins tend to function at. 
Just curious. 

Thanks for the help so far.


----------



## KeroKero

I would be shocked if your juvie would have the "boobs" or "jowls" - I've only seen those clearly develop on adults and is a sign of *obesity* (not saying it couldn't happen tho). But those are extreme signs... your frog could still be *overweight* and not have them (but still incur health risks). This is why it's hard to explain a lot of times, because often people think the overweight animals are a "healthy" weight. Obese animals are thought of as chunky, but there is the misconception of that not being a bad thing - as was mentioned earlier.

Having pics of your critters would really be the deciding factor.

I knew mentioning that would come back to bite me. It's kinda hard to explain without pics and I'm crazy busy right now so I'll have to answer that part later. Specifically what I'm talking about won't happen on azureus anyways.


----------



## Ed

Technically, a frog can be obese and have fat infiltration (damage) of the internal organs without showing overt signs.. people often forget that by the time a frog shows visible signs of obesity, it isn't a little obese, it is grossly obese. This is not healthy for the frogs. 

Ed


----------



## Dartolution

So I got back from a conference for SESETAC last night, and today had the opportunity while feeding to snatch a few pictures. 

These pics are right after a big meal of Termites and Hydei FYI.


----------



## WendySHall

Those are some beautiful Azureus you have there. (Especially pic #2!) I don't think you've got much to worry about...I don't think they look too fat at all.


----------



## KeroKero

Nope, if that's actually after a big feeding then I'd just feed them more  At that age they tend to grow longer than wider so just keep feeding them and give them good nutrition!


----------



## Dartolution

Would you say they are at an average weight?


----------



## KeroKero

I wouldn't say average - here it doesn't mean anything (and as hinted at in earlier comments -what may be average in the captive population may not be healthy). A healthy weight though? Yes, for the young little guys they are. Being ravenous little tykes is a good thing, and lots of feeding should help with their growth.


----------



## Dartolution

Glad to know I'm not raising fatties! Lol 
Thanks for the help!


----------



## evolvstlldartfrogs

KeroKero said:


> They would probably eat until they looked like 6 marbles given the chance!
> 
> Frog: But I'm staaaaaaaaaaaaarving!!
> You: But I just fed you!
> Frog: But look they are aaaaaaaall gone!
> You: Fine, you do look pitiful... *tosses in more flies*
> Frog: GET IN MY BELLY! *nom nom nom*
> You: Feel better you little piglet?
> Frog: But I'm staaaaaaaaarving! Can I have more?
> You: I JUST FED YOU TWO SECONDS AGO!!
> Frog: But look at my adorable toes! Aren't they adorable? FEED ME!
> 
> Learning how to feed by telling body condition is a tricky thing to learn. I feed the frogs like fish... I feed them as much as a ball of the food items would equal the size of their eye (works for shoebox to 10g tank, larger than that you have to increase it to take into account the size of the tank). If you have a goal in body condition it will help you judge how well you're doing (belly doesn't count, that fluctuates per meal), then you just adjust how many meals you give... smaller meals more often is better than larger meals the same amount. Also helps you keep your proportions straight, you get used to feeding a little per frog (it's surprising to people how few flies it can actually take), and just adding a feeding is easier than trying to add or take away from the bigger feedings once you have a "hand for it".


That was hilarious...probably because it was so true!


----------



## KeroKero

Yeah.... it can be hard to get people to understand that a frog is always hard wired to eat but that little story tends to work  I also have this habit of telling my frogs to "fetch" and tossing food in a completely different part of the tank to make them work for it. Works better for bigger tanks obviously (I think frogs in larger tanks are more healthy for a lot of reasons) but it's also hilarious to watch them fling themselves across the tank once they see the goodies!

Over feeding has been an issue for so long primarily because people assume the frogs are "begging", even though I think the response is more like "that giant weird thing that doesn't eat me has appeared, bounty shall soon arrive!" so they get excited. I have yet to see a loose frog come up to me and start bouncing around my feet for flies. Funny stories always make it easier to remember


----------



## Dartolution

> "that giant weird thing that doesn't eat me has appeared, bounty shall soon arrive!"


Lol can we say Classical conditioning lol 
This totally cracked me up! I needed that laugh!


----------



## KeroKero

telling funny stories seems to be my thing of late - gets the point of view of the frog/plant I'm talking about and you remember it 

I think more and more people are opening up to the idea that mammals aren't the only ones that can learn. Frogs tend to be thought of as animals primarily wired by instinct, but they have their moments.


----------



## jacobi

KeroKero said:


> I think more and more people are opening up to the idea that mammals aren't the only ones that can learn. Frogs tend to be thought of as animals primarily wired by instinct, but they have their moments.


Hey if goldfish can be trained...


----------



## KeroKero

Haha that is the same issue with many ampibians though - what is training and what is just conditioning  but it's a change in behavior many think even a frog can't do!


----------



## jeeperrs

KeroKero said:


> I don't have a quick and easy answer, and I don't have any good pics to really show it... it's something I've been thinking about for a while and really need to get out and illustrate. It's based of the idea of scoring body condition based on physiology, how the animal carries fat, and how their natural life cycle in the wild may play a part. I had an idea about this before learning that this was an actual technique used in the animal nutrition field.
> 
> PDFs, like most frogs, have fat distributed not like a coating just inside the skin (which you see more often with people), but more as fatty pads distributed in and around organs. This is one of the reasons people have a hard time judging obesity in frogs because they think it will look like a fat person but they don't. Their legs are the last part to get fatty it seems, and they are more likely to develop obvious fat pads on their belly (frog boobs) and jowls just above the shoulder (this can make their eardrum more obvious). If viewed from above the frog isn't generally the same width around the shoulders down to the hip area, but instead is distended like a balloon there are a few options - very fat frog, a major infect causing bloat (you'd notice it behaving differently, this is uncommon), or a female full of eggs. Overwieght frogs can be hard to sex because it hides a lot of the diagnostic shape of a mature animal (both bloated like a girl). Sometimes it's even hard to tell when a girl has even laid.
> 
> Legs are what I primarily look for in long term condition... an underweight frog recently fed will have a big belly, but thinner, stick like legs if it's been starved. Unless severly obese, a healthy frog and a fat frog have similar sized, muscular legs. In severly obese you'll see fat along the thighs - that's REALLY bad. There are a couple of other physiological areas to look, but they can vary by species, population, and sex so I try not to bring that up too early in learning about it. People bring up bony backs a lot, but in the larger tinc morphs (females of the giant morphs and especially citronellas for some reason) this can actually be normal in a completely healthy animal.
> 
> Many PDFs are seasonal so gaining and losing some weight during the year isn't a bad thing, and a swing back and forth between the thin side of healthy to the thick side of healthy is good - just a little fat around the middle often burned off with intense breeding and/or to get them through a dry season. It's just the line of what is healthy is either not well known, or very blurred in this hobby.


Great post. I think you mention a great point: fatty frogs and breeding. It shouldn't be a surprise that to encourage breeding you increase feeding. This takes us back to ethical questions, such as is it good to feed so much and so often to encourage the frogs laying eggs all the time? I honestly don't know the answer but I would assume there is a season to breed in the wild and not to breed all the time.


----------



## KeroKero

With PDFs it's actually not even the feeding issue - it's that we put them in a breeding seasons and keep them there. They have seasons to a degree - even a mild change between wet and dry. Feeding can just bring up other related issues - body condition, nutrition, exercise (aka size and complexity for the tank and encouraging the frog to move around it). 

Just this weekend I was blown away by a HUGE white's tree frog found by a friend in Australia. Gorgeous animal and what you'd expect for a teenager White's when it comes to size and body condition... the kicker was that this animal was not only an adult, but a HUGE adult even by Aussie standards. No Jabba jokes were possible - this was a slim, healthy, athletic wild adult. It was really a clear example of how bad a body score most captive White's would get!


----------



## jacobi

KeroKero said:


> With PDFs it's actually not even the feeding issue - it's that we put them in a breeding seasons and keep them there. They have seasons to a degree - even a mild change between wet and dry. Feeding can just bring up other related issues - body condition, nutrition, exercise (aka size and complexity for the tank and encouraging the frog to move around it).
> 
> Just this weekend I was blown away by a HUGE white's tree frog found by a friend in Australia. Gorgeous animal and what you'd expect for a teenager White's when it comes to size and body condition... the kicker was that this animal was not only an adult, but a HUGE adult even by Aussie standards. No Jabba jokes were possible - this was a slim, healthy, athletic wild adult. It was really a clear example of how bad a body score most captive White's would get!


Yeah, wild White's look NOTHING like the captive examples we always see. Studies have been done (I don't have any references immediately available but they're easily found) and most captive animal react the same way to over eating and obesity as humans, namely, shorter life spans and susceptibility to disease.


----------

