# Need to get emaciated dart with STS to eat!



## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I have a dart frog with STS who's completely emaciated. He's so skinny I can see his leg bones, he's listless, and he shows very little interest in the flies, since he can barely catch him. If he doesn't eat today, I'm certain he's going to starve to death. HELP! Is there any way I can entice him to eat? 
I've tried putting him in a small container with the flies, so they can't get away, but he just sits there, trying to be invisible because he doesn't like being in the container. Plus, after a minute or two, the flies get most of the suppliment off of themselves. 
He's just so skinny... Here's some pictures, do you think he has any hope?
















He isn't really trying to catch the flies, and he doesn't react to anything, just sits there like a colorful lump. I think he's given up... I put a couple flies literally half an inch in front of his nose, and he didn't even twitch.
I hate having to ask this, but if I can't get him to eat, what's the best way to euthanize him? This is just so sad to watch... Yesterday, I put him in a container with some flies, and he was trying so hard to catch them, but he couldn't even open his mouth... I think he's figured out that he can't get them and he's just stopped trying.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i beleive metrodozle is usually used as an appetite stimulant, but if you say hes having trouble picking stuff up then he might not be able to eat.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I think appetite stimulants only work when the animal is actually willing to eat...

Anyone know what the best way to euthanize a dart frog is?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Have you tried feeding the frog through a syringe?

Edit:
Look through this thread
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...4429-cobalt-not-eating-getting-serious-2.html

Also this
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...y-rescue-force-feeding-metabolic-needs-5.html

Also looking through those it seems that you might want to try giving the frog a soak in pedialyte


And here's the sticky emergency care sheet:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/16433-emergency-supportive-care.html


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I haven't tried syringe feeding it because all our syringes are the kid's medicine kind and have cough syrup and stuff in them. 
I'm gonna try to get a fly or two in his mouth... I read something about a sugar water bath, is that basically what it sounds like? Put him in sugar water made with dechlorinated water? And what's pedialyte? Sounds like a biker's energy drink.

And, if it doesn't work... I've read that freezing is a bad way to kill an animal that has a lot of water in it, like a frog. 
I do know of something that might work... Clove oil. I used some on a really sick betta I had, and it just went to sleep, then stopped breathing. I know frogs absorb stuff through their skin, so do you think that if I put him in a little bit of water with some clove oil in it, he'd absorb enough to be euthanized? 
I don't want to put him to sleep, but he's just so thin...

EDIT: Okay, I got five hydei larvae in his mouth, and he swallowed at least three. I used larvae because I couldn't catch the flies with tweezers. What really concerns me is, all I had to do to restrain him was put him on his back. He squirmed a little bit, but didn't really make any effort to get away from me...

EDIT AGAIN: I've got him in a sugar water bath, and he seems to like it. Normally, if he ends upo in water, he hops right out, but he's sort of huddling into the sugar water and he seems more alert.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I am impressed you got some flies down him. There is some type of cat food, that my vet recommended once, that you could use if easier but you would need the right syringe and it can be used if you figure out tube feeding. The cat food is usually available at vet offices only ..I will try an come up with name ..

If you feel the frog is suffering to much, Orajel with the least of amount of alcohol is your best bet for humane euthanasia. A drop or 2 on the head or lower belly region is what I recall at the moment. 

Sorry you are going through this ..


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I don't feel comfortable sticking a syringe in his mouth, he's so teensy... I've just been putting the flies in his mouth and letting him swallow on his own, he can at least do that. 

I read about the Orajel thing, but some people said that it seems to burn the frogs or irritate them... That's why I was thinking clove oil, I know that stuff doesn't burn.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here is an article about euthanizing. It even mentions clove oil.

Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

I would continue with the gentle force feeding regimen. Fruit fly larvae have alot more fat to them than fruit flies and should REALLY help to give him some energy and needed fat onto his body. Not sure how your picturign this, but with the syringe, we are talking about WITHOUT the needle on it. "If" you can work with that, you could buy a cup of wax worms and cram 2-3 into a syringe and feed him mushed up wax worms. Same as ff larvae, very high in fat and energy. More important that all this though, is how did he get like this? If you've had him for awhile, I would be concerned witht he possibility of parasites. I dont know what STS is. If you've inherited him, someone who was keeping him probably stopped feeding him. I've seen Tinctorius not feed for a month straight that didnt look 1/2 that bad though. Good luck. I wouldnt put him down just yet. I HAVE seen frogs come back from that amount of emaciation, though they may never be able to reproduce again.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Force feeding darts is super tricky without experience. I've seen trained vetrinary techs screw it up.

I hate to say this, but I think humane euthanasia is a responsible decision at this point. The frog is already super thin, the stress of frequent handling is only going to make things worse. I look at it as a quality of life issue, what is the frogs quality of life an chance of survival?

Good luck with making a difficult decision.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

No, I know you mean without the needle, I just don't want to stick hard things down his throat.
STS is Short Tounge Syndrome, caused by a lack of vitamin A. Basically, the frog can no longer use his tounge right, and mine couldn't even get his mouth open that much. 
I don't think he's going to make it... He's completely limp, not reacting to anything at all, and the only way I could tell he's alive is if you look at his underside just right you can see him breathing. Or it might be his heartbeat... If it is, it's extremely slow.
I'd considered parasites, but you'd think the other one would have them as well, and s/he (can't tell at the moment) seems just fine. In fact, it sat in some sugar water, so now it's kinda hyper.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Julio said:


> i beleive metrodozle is usually used as an appetite stimulant, but if you say hes having trouble picking stuff up then he might not be able to eat.


Did you mean metronidazole?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I have brought frogs back from being as emaciated as he appears in the picture. They also had STS and were having difficulty catching flies. However, just trying to catch flies was putting some supplement on their tongues. After a few days they were able to catch some flies. Within a week or so, they were catching flies normally. After more than a month, they were back to a good weight. This was a proven pair and they did go on to breed again after they recovered. 

However, if your little guy is not even moving around much, it might not be possible for him. Did you dip the larvae in the supplement? 

I'm so sorry about it


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Yeah, I dipped the larvae... I think he's in some sort of a frog coma. His heart actually stopped for a couple of seconds, then started back up. Is it even possible for a frog to go into a coma? I'm guessing so... 
'Not moving much' is an understatement. He's not moving at all, even when I picked him up and turned him over to look at his underbelly. He's just laying there like the dead thing he's gonna be pretty soon.
EDIT: Oh, wait, he just moved... A little bit. I seriously don't think he has even a tiny chance.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Did you mean metronidazole?


Yea thanks my spelling is not always my best assett


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok he got some larvae and he got some supplements. Now I'd just put him in a comfy position and leave him alone to see what happens. Maybe the food and the supplements will be enough to get him moving again.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

He's moving around, or trying to, just a little bit... I've been feeding him every hour or so, and he seems more alert, but his eyes are glazed over like a dead thing's. He's definitely alive, I'm just worried about if he'll be that way tomorrow... If he makes it overnight, I'll start getting hopeful.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I really think you should let him rest a bit.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Try adding some dwarf white isopods in the tank. They are slower than the FF and their white color makes them stand out. I had good luck with them for one emaciated dart.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I'd like to just let him alone, but the problem is I don't know if he has enough energy left to not die overnight... He's actually figured out the feeding, and opens his mouth when he sees a larva on the tweezers.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I understand your concern. I really do. Sometimes I think we love our frogs to death, literally. This frog is seriously under nourished. When feeding an undernourished frog back to health, it is important to not feed them too much. Just very small bits at first and slowly build them back up to a normal diet. I don't understand the science behind it but it's called 'refeeding syndrome.'


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Do not over feed him, frogs that have not eaten and are fed too much will regurgitate what they were fed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I posted on the other thread only to come here and find it seems to be worse than I thought. It is so sad. I truly hope he pulls through for you. You're getting some good advice here.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I'm going to just leave him alone for a while... Problem is, if he dies, I'm just gonna have that niggling little feeling that he'd have survived if I did something just a tiny bit different... Plus, he'd be dead, and that'd be sad.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Betta132 said:


> I'm going to just leave him alone for a while... Problem is, if he dies, I'm just gonna have that niggling little feeling that he'd have survived if I did something just a tiny bit different... Plus, he'd be dead, and that'd be sad.


Yes, we all feel like that "if only I had done (whatever)" but really, at this point, he should be left alone and he will either live or die. We're all pulling for him.

Look at it this way, he has eaten and has had fresh supplements. So, he is already better off than he was yesterday. Now it's just time to wait and see.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> I understand your concern. I really do. Sometimes I think we love our frogs to death, literally. This frog is seriously under nourished. When feeding an undernourished frog back to health, it is important to not feed them too much. Just very small bits at first and slowly build them back up to a normal diet. I don't understand the science behind it but it's called 'refeeding syndrome.'


When nutrients are in the blood stream, and need to get into the cell, a number of them require transport which involves energy and ions. When a severely emaciated animal suddenly gets a bunch of nutrients in the blood stream, the sudden movement of those nutrients into the cells depletes the circulating system and the result is the animal goes into shock and dies... With amphibians, the current recommendation is to feed no more that 50% of the estimated caloric need/day until the animal stabilizes (this can take several weeks to happen). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Well, the poor little froggy didn't last the night... And this time I'm quite sure he's dead and not in some kind of coma. Thanks anyway for the advice...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear that


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## ian (Dec 25, 2006)

Sorry to hear that. I was hoping he would pull through. Best bet now is to focus on the other frog(s) you have and give them the best care you can. There are a lot of good people here to help.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I'm definitely going to focus on the other frog... I've been watching him closely, and he seems to be missing the flies a bit more than usual, but he's plump and eating. Definitely gonna suppliment his food!


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