# How do you cull your SLS froglets?



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Looking for some opinions.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Rubber band, and a bottle rocket!


Just kidding....no tads yet so no problem yet....someone answer this mans question!


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## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

A single drop of euthanasia solution from a vet does the trick. Just put it on the frogelt/tads back, and in about 5 minutes, it's dead.

Ryan


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm assuming they don't just give away deadly injectable chemicals?


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## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

Unfortunately, no. I'm a vet, so I guess I'm lucky. It does work very well, though.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Dane, 
Here is a link to a very useful article by Ed K. I have used an Ethyl alcohol bath and Benzocaine in the past. 
Ed
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Well...It has been suggested by many to use bezocaine, to knock the animal out, and then put in the freezer as the most humane way to do it...

But after doing so (I used the ambesol brand)...I can honestly say it is clear that the animal is in excruciating pain....
I've had froglets who would barely move without prodding, then when you put the ambesol on, they turn into jumping beans till the OD kicks in...I can't see where that would be better than putting them in the deep freeze.

Perhaps some of that wart removal (freeze) aeresol would be quicker...painless? I doubt it, but probably still better than the ambesol.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I've thought about using other pain killers (of the caine family) either orally or on the skin. I'm no chemist or biologist, but I imaging that the same/similar vol:mass ratio that would cause death in a human would also cause death in a frog. 

I wonder if it's the inactive ingredients that cause the discomfort. What are the inactive incredients in Ambasol/Orajel? I bet it's just petroleum jelly.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Are you talking about sprinkling cocain on em? I hope thats how i go 


Na seriously, if you have the stomach...why not just stomp em, or use a hammer....i know this sounds horrible...but it would be extremely quick, and if their brain is mush...they aint gonna feel a thing. Or explosives would do the same...but thats not safe.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The anbesol probably caused the irritation due to the benzyl alcohol content while the use of Orajel doesn't cause this problem as it doesn't contain the alcohol.


Ed


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

As the "caine" family of drugs are powerful stimulants as well as painkillers, I wonder if the frogs really are in pain/irritated. Is it possible that the zap of a powerful stimulant is giving them a boost of energy without any pain (before they are completely anesthetized)?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Ed said:


> The anbesol probably caused the irritation due to the benzyl alcohol content while the use of Orajel doesn't cause this problem as it doesn't contain the alcohol.
> 
> 
> Ed


I had started to wonder about that...I bet anything that is it, thanks for the tip...though I don't need it now (fingers crossed)


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Unfortunately, I had to euthanize my old female xenopus with Oragel several years ago, then put in freezer. that is what somebody recommended me use from Kingsnake.  

I believe a solution of ethanol would work. Perhaps you could jump (not joking) use a 50% solution of Vodka, then put the frog in the freezer?


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

I don't mean to sound barbaric, but I have to agree with Dave - swift, massive, and effectively administered blunt-force trauma is (I think) a surer way to kill them painlessly than to expose them to chemicals, especially if you don't really know what you're doing (ie you're not a pharmacist, doctor or vet). I'm a hunter and a fisherman, so I have a bit more stomach for something like that, but it really is faster than chemicals or freezing, if nowhere near as delicate. Please don't jump on me for this- I care a tremendous amount for these animals (and have only had to euthanize one once) and am not trying to denigrate them by suggesting this- I honestly think it is the most humane method at my, and at most people's, disposal. I suggest this because I truly believe it helps them pass with the least suffering, and I think frog euthanasia should be administered on that basis, not on the dignity of the death. I've heard about various freezing techniques as well, and I a) know they take longer and b) am unconvinced that the animals don't go through lots of discomfort before dying.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I agree with Dave and Paul 100% Swift, blunt knock to the head and you're done. I too am a fisherman and thats probably why. I know when I worked at petstores and we had to feed the snakes, we put the mouse/rat in a bag and just gave it a good, hard and swift slap on the ground and it was dead instantly. Same with bait fish. A good hard slap to the ground and they are out in less than 1 second. Seems like the most humane thing to me. No suffering, no chemicals and its free.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2006)

wait, how do they do it in high school laboratories? Or is that too painful too?
Guillotine anyone? :? :x 
uhhmm, how about chloretone? Wait, the earthworms we put in there wiggle around for a good 30 seconds. God!!! Is there anyway to die peacefully??!!!!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

The brain is what allows a creature to percieve pain...so you have to knock em out first then kill em (which is often hard to do without causing some pain before the go out), or kill them so fast that there is no chance for a pain signal to reach the brain...or atleast minimize the duration of that signal. Destroying the brain as rapidly as possible is the most humane if not pretty thing to do.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I don't mean to sound barbaric, but I have to agree with Dave - swift, massive, and effectively administered blunt-force trauma is (I think) a surer way to kill them painlessly than to expose them to chemicals, especially if "endsnip

You don't sound barbaric to me but you have to be sure that the entire brain is destroyed on the first blow. If you do not then frog's ability to apprehend pain may still be in place and cause the animal significant pain. There are some differences in a amphibian's ability to apprehend pain and a mammal or bird but that is too long a topic to discuss here plus I don't want to have to go digging through packed up books for references.. 

The use of benzocaine has now been accepted as humane method of euthenasia (I can get the reference if anyone wants it) and its use has been refined. 
While benzocaine doesn't readily dissolve in water, you can take a gel product like orajel and dissolve it in water through long vigerous stirring. The amphibian is then placed into this solution which rapidly anesthetizes the amphibian. Unlike alcohol and some of the other anesthetics used, benzocaine products like orajel do not cause any of the distress/irritation allowing for if not a plane of euthenasia but a plane of anesthesia to be reached (one of its original uses with amphibians was to anesthetize wild frogs for a photographic mark and recapture study and it was so effective at rapidly anesthetizing the frogs that it was then looked at as a euthenasia method). 

Rainfrog, jumping directly to 50% etoh is stressful to the amphibian. Think of how it would feel if you snorted 50% etoh into your nose and onto your mucous membranes :wink: 



Some further comments. 


Ed


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## FROGMOM (Sep 7, 2006)

*euthanizing froglets*

I just found this link and was thankful to see that culling froglets humanely is a much discussed topic. Right now I have 4 tadpoles that definitely have SLS. One of the tadpoles is fairly small (all leucamelas and all from frogs that just started breeding this summer). The other three are at least twice as big as the first, but still have SLS. 

Since I am providing care while my son is in college, I think I will let him decide how to do the dirty deed. I just cannot see myself putting any gel and watching the froglet squirm in pain. Faster is better??????? Cold sleep is better?????? Or I just may let nature take its course- which I know will be more drawn out. All this reminds me of Hamlet's "To Be or Not to Be." 

I know that I have 2 other tads whose front legs are ready to come out, but they look iffy. Huge tadpoles but the front legs are not making it.

I have read a lot about SLS to also know that there are many theories. My only hope is that our frogs were first timers. As of this moment, we have a brand new 6 day old clutch of eggs that have def. changed into develop. tads. 

I think I will get my son to bring home some of the stuff they use in the zoo lab to euthanize. I know it is of the "caine" family.


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