# Advanced discussion regarding the sexing of Pumilio



## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Well, it appears that the pumilio shipment should be arriving as scheduled, and that I will be examining all of the imports. I have been contacted by many individuals (and so has Glen) that would like me to pick out their frogs. I am not recieving any compensation for this service, but am happy to provide it. I will not pick frogs for anyone if the frog does not meet my approval. This is not a guarentee of long term success, but I will do my best.

Because of this, many people have asked me to pick them out a pair or pairs. I can not guarentee that I can do this with perfect or near perfect accuracy. Which brings me to my point...

Does anyone here have good firsthand guidelines to sexing pumilio. I am looking for accurate information and suggestions. I know certain things to look for, and calling is a dead give away. If you have solid information please give me advice. Please do not respond if your are speculating or have heard something from a friend of a friend. 

Thank you. I hope this will help promote the captive breeding of some outstanding, beautiful, rare frogs. Thank you for your time.

Dr. Frye


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Look at the throat. Males will have a darken vocal sac and the female will not. This is about the only way you can tell that I know of besides calling 

Have fun on the trip,


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

David,

Wow....this is not an easy question to answer. I also do not envy your job of having to sex so many frogs - I think that your task will be a hard one.

The only way I have been able to determine sex with pumilio is by observing their behavior. Since all of these frogs have been 'farm raised' I think it will be a safe assumption they have all be exposed to the same environment, therefore my suggestion should not expose the frogs to something they haven't already been exposed to.

Place a group of frogs in a tank and watch for breeding behavior. When you observe the behavior, pull that pair out. Continue with this process until you have determined the sex of all the frogs. I know this is more time consuming, but I think it is reliable. 

In addition, I have noticed with the pumilio we had (which you now own) the males seem to be more timid and hide more. There is also the size difference with the females & the males but I don't know how reliable that will be since the frogs will be stressed. 

I have also been considering using another method, but I do not know how practical it would be. I have thought about taking pictures of a frog's toe pads at a high resolution and then opening the photo on the computer. You should be able to zoom in on the toes. If there is enough differentiation between the male\female toe pads in the pumilio, you might be able to use this method to sex the questionable frogs.

Good luck,

Melissa





Dr. Frye said:


> Well, it appears that the pumilio shipment should be arriving as scheduled, and that I will be examining all of the imports. I have been contacted by many individuals (and so has Glen) that would like me to pick out their frogs. I am not recieving any compensation for this service, but am happy to provide it. I will not pick frogs for anyone if the frog does not meet my approval. This is not a guarentee of long term success, but I will do my best.
> 
> Because of this, many people have asked me to pick them out a pair or pairs. I can not guarentee that I can do this with perfect or near perfect accuracy. Which brings me to my point...
> 
> ...


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Once again, I am not planning on sexing every frog there, but I will try to pick out animals that people request. If someone asked for a pair, I may be able to pick that out, and I may not. I will not guarentee the sex of these frogs. I will not even consider mixing any of the pumilio together - that is asking for a disasterous contamination.

What I was looking for on this thread were good suggestions from people who have had good luck/skill sexing the frogs.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Especially physical differences.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Dr. Frye,

If you reread my post, I put a disclaimer in the paragraph before which stated:



> Since all of these frogs have been 'farm raised' I think it will be a safe assumption they have all be exposed to the same environment, therefore my suggestion should not expose the frogs to something they haven't already been exposed to.


Maybe I didn't go into enough detail, but from what I have been able to learn about the 'farm raised process' is each frog is not raised individually, but in a group enviroment. I did not say, toss all the morphs in one tank and go from there, give me a little credit. If you reread my post, my suggestion is based on the assumption all contamination has already taken place.


> I will not even consider mixing any of the pumilio together - that is asking for a disasterous contamination.





> What I was looking for on this thread were good suggestions from people who have had good luck/skill sexing the frogs.


I think you are getting what you asked for. In addition, the use of a digital camera to take a closer look at physical differences is something that might help you out. I have already used the camera method on other frogs, just not pumilio. If you are not satisfied with our response, you might try making a post on frognet. I am sure there are more people on that list who have more experience, skill & luck with the sexing of pumilio. 




Dr. Frye said:


> Once again, I am not planning on sexing every frog there, but I will try to pick out animals that people request. If someone asked for a pair, I may be able to pick that out, and I may not. I will not guarentee the sex of these frogs. I will not even consider mixing any of the pumilio together - that is asking for a disasterous contamination.
> 
> What I was looking for on this thread were good suggestions from people who have had good luck/skill sexing the frogs.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Like Ben said, look at the throat region. Males have a noticeably darkened throat from calling (makes sense considering their vocal sacs expand so far). 

-Bill J.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

There is a great saying about assuming. I wish I could come up with a catchy phrase about speculation.


> If you have solid information please give me advice. Please do not respond if your are speculating or have heard something from a friend of a friend.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

For such an elegant profession, you have a lousy way with people Dr. Frye.

Be gracious about any and all information you receive when *anyone* is nice enough to try and help.

s


Dr. Frye said:


> There is a great saying about assuming. I wish I could come up with a catchy phrase about speculation.
> 
> 
> > If you have solid information please give me advice. Please do not respond if your are speculating or have heard something from a friend of a friend.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Well, I have been asked by certain members not to give out medical advice, and I made a very specific request. And I either have to ignore or explain the error of statements like 


> I think it will be a safe assumption they have all be exposed to the same environment


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

and


> If you reread my post, my suggestion is based on the assumption all contamination has already taken place.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Amen Scott!

Not to add fuel to the fire, but i am a little confused as to why people are requesting a service from you that you admit yourself that you have no expertise in. 

I think it is admirable that you are not on any account going to guarentee the sexed pairs, but i would think that any advice to help you better service your customers would be appreciated and not torn apart on the basis of symantics.

Just food for thought.....


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

So be gracious and ignore it then.

s


Dr. Frye said:


> Well, I have been asked by certain members not to give out medical advice, and I made a very specific request. And I either have to ignore or explain the error of statements like
> 
> 
> > I think it will be a safe assumption they have all be exposed to the same environment


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

I highly advise everyone to return to the subject of this thread.


> User Agreement:
> 
> You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed).


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

I concur that the only way to do it easily is by the darkened throat of males, plus females can be enormous, males are slighter. However, if these are farm raised, will the males be of calling age, and will the females be of breeding age, and therefore rotund?

Christina


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

DR Frye,
assuming they are adult frogs sent, you will essentially be dealing with sexing wild caught frogs. some trends to look for is males will be generally more slender, will have the darkened throat pouch as Ben, Bill and Christina Have all vouched for, and males will generally seem a little more anxious, while female will tend to be more tranquil. For some reason the males often will be the ones that are running around collecting containers, while females seem to more often than not hunker down and "relax", or are often not as agitated or excitable . Also, mist the frogs like mad early in the morning and this will almost definetely ensure that any healthy mature males will call. simply separate out the calling males. Keep misting as you separate, because as you potentially remove larger, possible more dominant males, others smaller, younger, weaker? males may begin to call. In most cases healthy pumilio males should call.

wild females are generaly overall larger frogs, however wildones are not neccesarily fatter than males, though this is often the case, a better bet may be to look at the comparative body length of the frogs as females will usually be slightly longer than males. In captivity our frogs are often a lot fatter than their wild relatives, so be careful when sexing based on experiences with captive frogs, sometimes males in captivity are equally fat and even larger than females, but i have not found this to be the case in any populations i've seen in the wild, though my experience with pumilio is limited to a dozen or so costa rican populations. Some of the small panamanian forms may pose an interesting challenge.

hopefully all goes well with the shipment, they land safe and are in good health and using the advice provided by dendroboard members you should be able to sex them fairly accurately.

goodluck 

mark


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Thank you very much, Mark Pepper, Christina, Ben and Bill. Like I said earlier, no frogs will be mixed together - but the spaying should still cause a lot of healthy males to call, right? I'll spray like a mad man.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

*DNA Test*

The best and most accurate way to sex these pumilio is to do a DNA test. Then everyone would be satisfied with a guaranteed sexed 1.1 pair. Problem solved.


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

DNA testing on 320 (160x2) imported pumilio would cost a crap load of money. Not to mention it would probably take months to get all the results back. I would stick with the calling or darkened throat method.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

*Correction*

Actually I believe Mr. Glenn Novotny said "160 in TOTAL" which means 160 (80x2). Only way to go if you want guaranteed accurately sexed 1.1 pairs. You get what you pay for.


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

The total amount isn't the point. The fact is this couldn't physically work unless Glenn happens to be able to do DNA testing himself. These are usually sent off for the results and literally take months. FAR to much work and money just to find out the sexes.


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

I checked Glenn's pumilio email I have and the first shipment will have 160 pumilio. It sounds like the second will be the same, nothing for sure though. This is just FYI.


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

Sexing pumilio by the science is not very accurate. I have seen fat males and skinny females. Patrick has a pic of a very fat male and normal looking female if you go and d/l the pdf on raising and breeding pumilios (file size is 23mb). The dark gray spot on the throat is a dead give away that a male has called recently. That being sad both my pumilios are fat. The calling male actually looks like a female ready to lay eggs. My male was calling at 2 months old, so if the condition of the tank is right they will call. 

Since we are on the subject of sexing, i have a few questions. Both my pumilios are fat. The one that is not calling is extremely fat though. It always hide in the brom. The calling male will start calling if he sees the other one out and about, and basically walk slowly towards fatter one. Yes, pumilios can walk. The fatter one will jump out of sight and the male will stop calling. 

I was wondering if i have both males. Is there any chance that a dominate male can prevent another male from calling? So the male is basically chasing the other male away with his call. Or can this be a nonresponsive female as someone has told me. Both my pums are around 6 months of age. 

Here is a pic of the one that is not calling... it's not that good of a pic but you can get an idea of how fat it is.










Oh and thanx to everyone who has helped me last night in the chatroom.. I just wanted more opinion :lol:


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

Here is a link to download the pic from patrick showing the fatter male. I would directly post the pic, but im too lazy to ask for permission. I think this will be faster. On the bottom of the page in big red letters.

http://www.saurian.net/htm/dartfrogs1.htm


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

I really need to proofread my posts. sorry :shock:


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

Jaso said:


> Since we are on the subject of sexing, i have a few questions. Both my pumilios are fat. The one that is not calling is extremely fat though. It always hide in the brom. The calling male will start calling if he sees the other one out and about, and basically walk slowly towards fatter one. Yes, pumilios can walk. The fatter one will jump out of sight and the male will stop calling.
> I was wondering if i have both males. Is there any chance that a dominate male can prevent another male from calling? So the male is basically chasing the other male away with his call. Or can this be a nonresponsive female as someone has told me. Both my pums are around 6 months of age.


Just separate them. I had a hard time with my imitator, and when I separated them with 15 mins, both were calling. And I waited 1 1/2 years to separate them, all other signs told me a pair. They would even sleep in the same leaf.


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

So.......I hope I am getting this correct. The Pumilio in question are not CB. The males will quite possibly be of a slighter ( realy hope thats a word), build. The males will most likely have a dark vocal sac. Understand that my brother is not going to have the luxury of spending the time required to couple every single Pumilio that Glen receives, so putting them together would not work on any level in this particular case. If there are any other people out there with possative experience in sexing a large number of Pumilio, that can give a little extra special advise, this is what is being sought after.Thanks in advance,

Rich


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## Guest (May 5, 2004)

It would apear that not all of this thread has made "the cut", anyone interested in a copy of my brother's good bye post , feel free to contact him. Anyone in need of contact info, or personal thoughts, please pm me. Thanks,

Rich Frye


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## Guest (May 5, 2004)

With all of the craziness happening lately. I would like people to be able to know what caused all of the mass hysteria. Monday May 3rd. Dr. Frye wrote a final statement to the Dendroboard community. He said goodbye and asked that the post be left intact and untouched. Within half an hour of saying goodbye to the board, his message was frozen/erased/moved, and Dr. Frye was officially banned from Dendroboard. The owner of the board claims that Dr. Frye broke the user agreement in his final statement. I have an exact copy of that statement, and can’t find the violation. Please feel free to read the cause of the hubbub and ask Joe Hickson if it is absolutely identical to Dr. Frye’s posting. While you are at it ask Joe how Dr. Frye violated the user statement. I am a biased member. I am both a friend of Dr. Frye’s and an employee of his, but he neither asked nor paid me to post this. The following statement is exactly as it was posted. I suggest either printing a copy of this post when you read it or saving a copy to your hard drive, because it will most likely be erased within minutes.

“Assumptions allow the best in 
life to pass you by 
- John Sales 

If we all worked on the assumption 
that what is accepted as true is really true, 
there would be little hope of advance 
- Orville Wright 

Assumption is the mother of the screw up. 
- Angelo Donghia 

You proceed from a false assumption. I have no ego to bruise. 
- Spock 

Assumptions are the termites of relationships. 
- Henry Winkler 

The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable. 
- Paul Broka 

You must stick to your convictions, but be ready to abandon your
assumptions. 
- Dennis Waitley 

The harder you fight to hold on to specific assumptions, the more 
likely
there's gold in letting go of them. 
- anonymous 

Begin challenging your own assumptions. Your assumptions are your
windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the 
light
wont come in. 
- Alan Alda 


I have recently been informed that Melissa is offended and believes I
called her an ASS earlier today. If she makes this assumption, she must
also realize that I must by necessity be calling myself an ASS. Now, I
have the self-confidence and self-awareness to admit that I can, at
times, make a total ASS out of myself, but I wasn't trying to call
either of us an ASS earlier today. That being said, Melissa has asked
that I be punished. Punished for my horrific statement of, "There is a
great saying about assuming." 

Once again I am reminded that anyone and everyone can write on this
forum. That provides the potential of greatness, but it is that same
opinion-overload that can overwhelm those seeking knowledge (true
knowledge with facts and data and stuff.) I admit to overreacting once
again by responding to Melissa. Her speculations and assumptions,
whether they be grounded in truth or pixie dust, are sacred on this
forum. She and a few other board members get the greatest satisfaction
out of seeing their ideas spewed forth across the web. For some the
significance or even truth of their statements doesn't even matter.
Volume is what matters to these few. 


For offending the powerful and fair moderator, Melissa, I will most
likely be removed from this board. I wanted to thank all of those who
have strived to provide help and knowledge to eager board members. I
want to congratulate the board for becoming so large and influential. I
hope to stay in contact friends I have made. As always, I can be 
reached
at my hospital if there is a need. Good-bye. 

Sincerely, 
David Frye 

P.S. I hope Joe and Melissa and the other moderators have the decency 
to
leave this message untouched and in place. I can't believe that this
message will destroy the foundation of Dendroboard, but I expect it to
be erased.”


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## Guest (May 5, 2004)

Adios Dr. Frye


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## Guest (May 5, 2004)

Oh man, I hate it when they get rid of a main character in a show. Guess I'll just have to wait and see who has a love affair. I'll be tuning into the next episode of AS THE DENDROBOARD TURNS.


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## Guest (May 5, 2004)

yawn, later dr. frye. anyway, let's get back to things that actually matter.... :roll:


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## Guest (May 5, 2004)

*Ticket Fee?*

Bring out the popcorn and soda, LOL!!!!!!!! Next, this board will be charging us a fee in order to tune into each episode of this show! LOL!!!!!!!



Yalar said:


> Oh man, I hate it when they get rid of a main character in a show. Guess I'll just have to wait and see who has a love affair. I'll be tuning into the next episode of AS THE DENDROBOARD TURNS.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

It really irks me to see a few people are actually happy and amused that this board has lost a valueable member. How many of you have actually spoke to Dr. Frye in person? He is extremely polite, knowledgeable and provided me with alot of great information. Unfortunately there are not alot of Frog Vets out there, raising some people to argue about his methods and what he recommends. I for one am sad to see that he will not be posting anymore.

Robert Marchisi


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Robert,

I agree. I think we have lost a valuable contributor to the board. While we will still be able to contact him via email or phone, i think him leaving the board is detrimental to all of us.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm with Robert and Aaron on this. Cheering that someone is gone is in extremely lousy taste.

I may not have agreed with everything he said, or how he said it, but I do not like to lose *any* resources that can help us to better frogs.

s


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## Guest (May 5, 2004)

*likewise*

Dr. Frye has been a truly valuable resource for many of us. He's helped out in so many ways, trouble-shooting, diagnosing sick frogs, treating sick frogs. I think many of us are familiar with the gut-wrenching panic that sets in when one has no idea what to do next. I have to say that Dr. Frye has been there for many of us and I am thankful for that. I think he does what he does because he loves it and not for the money, so it made me sad to see so many shoot him down.

I know some people may have been offended by certain comments, but I think that he is in an awkward position of not being able to give medical advice (because of the potential repercussions). So I think sometimes he is unable to explain certain things because of this. 

This is a forum for the free expression of ideas but I would caution people to at least think before they post first instincts or gut reactions. Sometimes, misguided comments cause a lot of damage and it's very difficult to undo. I feel like it's always best to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Ken


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## Guest (May 6, 2004)

*Learning experience*

I decided to shove aside my dissapointments from this occurence and learn something from it. Maybe others can benefit from the lessons I derived from this too?

I learned to:

Remember that keeping exotics is not a science. Even a suggestion from a most knowlegeable keeper must be digested carefully and matched with my experience and that of others. 

Not get offended. There are so many kinds of people with as many different senses of humor, etc. Even on this very thread people have reacted negatively to what I percieved as another's attempt to lighten up. 

Remember that things come across differently when typed. Things could be typed with a smile and read like hate.

Remember that everyone else involved are human too, and I don't have to make their bad day my bad day, and visa versa. 

I also learned to read and re-read. If I'm not sure about a post, I read it again five minutes later after doing something else and it will read completely different.

We're all in this for the same thing. While it's a shame that people being people got in the way of our common goals, maybe if we let people be people, we'd have fewer interruptions of this nature? I think everyone's heart on this board is in the right place, everyone's involved. 

We were people, we brawled, now let's wipe the blood off of one another and go have a few beers and compare dart frog pics. Dr. Frye? Melissa? Everyone?


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## TonyT (Feb 16, 2004)

You know the past few days has really shed a light on many of the members that was not there before. I have seen some very rude and snide remarks from people that I thought were into this hobby for the right reasons. Seems that many here are to imature to even realise that this man is an asset to our hobby. Just because he voiced his opinion did not make him a bad person nor did it mean that he did something wrong. If it does then there are a few people here who are just as wrong as the doctor. It amases me how people let pride or egos get in the way of simple things like a HOBBY. Just a little input from a insignificant frogger in Texas.

Peace,
TonyT


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

First of all I would like to make sure everyone is aware that I am Melissa’s (aka melissa68’s) business partner. I have quietly sat in the background the last few months as these issues have flared up and calmed down and flared up again. I agree Dr. Frye was a valuable member of this forum. He still is a valuable member of the community and can still be reached whenever needed. 

While I’m not aware of 100% of what has happened, I am aware of many things going on in the background that most members of this forum are unaware of. Some of those issues have been directed at me. Some have not. There have been many messages flying around this community that are disappointing to me. Before anyone screams that Melissa broke moderator confidentiality I want everyone to be aware that I know of these messages because they were sent directly to our email rather than utilizing private messaging. Anyone who has ever contacted us is aware that we both check the email account. I could do what I originally felt compelled to do and post them all. But I don’t feel that would be very professional. 

I think we all can learn from the newest member to the most experienced breeder. I am sometimes reminded by the ‘beginners’ that you can still learn from them. Sometimes their questions make me think and have to do some research before I can answer them. I have learned some really invaluable information from people with less experience than I have. As for more experienced breeders….. I am amazed at the vast amount of knowledge packed in their heads. Listen to these guys! They have a wealth of information to pass on.

Just today I posted on the forum,


> “I know we are awed at the friendships that we have developed because of this hobby. We have connected with so many intelligent, creative, talented people all because of the love of frogs. Dendroboard and Frognet are both invaluable resources to the hobby. I for one am very glad they are around.........”


I still agree with that post. Our first ‘dart frogs’ were three tadpoles. We morphed them out and fell in love with the hobby. We haven’t looked back since. The people we’ve met and the people we’ve connected with still amaze me. These are people that we otherwise would never have had the privilege to know (and I do mean privilege). I’m proud to say I’m a frog nut.

Additionally, I’m not sure how many members of this community are aware at the significant amount of time and money that goes into creating this resource. When we first found this board we were going to become a sponsor. However, when Melissa became a moderator we felt it would be a conflict of interest to advertise on the board. I do believe however, that to date the board sponsors have received free advertising. If I recall the first three months were free. The cost of advertising after that was very insignificant considering the audience. What I am getting at is that the only person that I am aware of spending any money out of pocket to provide this resource is Joe. This board is a privilege and not a right. I feel we should all be grateful to Joe for providing us with a place to gather.

I think I can speak for both Melissa and I when I say that neither of us have hard feelings toward ANY member of this community (this includes the Frye’s).

So I guess I’m asking…. Can we all just let this drop and get back to frogging?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

*RE: Sexing pumilio (and other frogs)*

Seems I am probably a little late with my email and it seems pretty sad that someone who has an expertise in an area that benefits us all will no longer be a contributor to this forum. Regardless of who is to blame I think it is a shame. Ok, off my box... One way of sexing pumilio and this works to a degree in all darts is to hold them kind of upside down, basically you want them to "squinch in" their neck. It would be the equivalent of you touching your chin to your chest. Now look for the vocal sac on the males. In this position a males neck will look different than a females in the same position because the vocal sack will "fold up". Not fool proof by any means and works better in some species than others.


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## Guest (May 6, 2004)

*Do not add semantics to a post; and moderators*

I read through the thread, and have a few things to say.

First, this is my first post here. I have read quite a few of them, and a few things have popped out that really bother me.

Second, Dr. Frye is a Veterinarian. giving out medical advice, especially if it is free, should not only be allowed, but encouraged. Whoever the genius is that asked a Doctor to not doctor should have their head examined. ESPECIALLY if that vet specializes in poison frogs. (I cannot think of another in the country. Fill me in if there is another that anyone knows of.)

Third, and the absolute most troubling, is the amount of "moderating" that goes on. The reins are way too tight, and the definitions of slander (impossible to do on a message board, since slander is spoken; Libel is written) or abuse are a little skewed. I have counted over two dozen times on about 60 threads where the "rules" were posted. It seems to me that there are way too many chiefs, and not enough ******. (If you are massively sensitive, that was a racial remark, so I should probably be booted.)

No matter what you say, 1/3 are going to agree, 1/3 will disagree, and 1/3 cannot stand you and will freak regardless of what is said.

Libel is by definition printing something about someone else that is knowingly false. If you say that such and such's product killed all your frogs, or that they sent you bad frogs, If you are telling the truth, (which simply means that you are not knowingly lying...) Then you have done nothing wrong. No libel has been committed. If you are criticising something that someone has said or is doing, then nothing abusive has gone on either; as did NOT happen in this thread. Yet the moderator saw fit to threaten the posters.

I think that the definitions of the things that the rules are looking to govern need to taught to the people that are going to govern, before they go out and try to govern.

Most likely my last post on Dendroboard, and not because I ticked off the moderators...

John Gibeau


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

John,

That's the beauty of this free service. Nobody is putting a gun to your head telling you to stay and read, no one is putting a gun to your head telling you to leave.

Me? I like what I've read. I appreciate that the owner of the site is doing the best he can to keep liabilities (*his* liability specifically) to a minimum - which is exactly what I would do in the same situation. That is done by moderating.

As neither of us is involved in moderating and/or ownership of this site, I do not think it's a good idea for either of us to tell him how to do his thing. Matter of fact - I believe this site was created out of someone telling him to do his own thing (FrogNet saying things are fine there, if you want to try something else - go for it).

I appreciate having this site and I appreciate the people posting here (you, Dr. Frye, Melis, moderators and everyone else included) so I think I'll stick around awhile to see if I can learn anything else.

Scott
Sanford, Maine


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## Guest (May 6, 2004)

whats ironic (and sad) about the whole situation is that this whole post started by Dr. Frye attempting to gather information to better help the people on this board by trying to please the orders of pairs of pumilios placed by alot of members of this board. So in a nutshell he was doing us a favor and then asked advice to make sure he could do that favor in the best possible manner and then got booted out because of over sensitive people!

I myself am a biggener and I am always reading every post i can to gather information, and I am defintley let down by what has happened. I was defintley looking forward to his post about the condition of the Pumilio farm bred shippment arriving, but i guess most people would rather speculate about things of this nature (like they were doing a few days ago) instead of getting expert 1st hand information! Oh well just my 2 cents...


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

> then got booted out because of over sensitive people!


O.k. That's it. I'm am completed frustrated over the fact that many people who are not aware of certain events are crying 'poor doctor'. Is anyone involved in the situation 100% in the right? No. Were poor decissions made. Yes I think so. But there is alot more going on than what people are seeing. 

Go back and reread the post Melissa made in regards to sexing the pumilio. Then read Mark Pepper's post (the one everyone liked). They are extremely similar. Basically they both stated that the best way to sex the pumilio is to *watch their behavior*. Specifically for breeding behavior. We have spoken to individuals who have gotten in farm raised animals and this is how they do it. Additionally, other than DNA tests, it is probably the most accurate way. Face it, these guys don't have 100% dead on distinguishing sexual features. We aren't talking bearded dragons and leopard geckos here. We're talking dart frogs. Will you even be able to see a darkened throat patch of a stressed frog? I'm not sure of that answer. I guess it depends on how good of a shape these guys are in when they come in. 

This whole issue started because Melissa disagreed with statements Dr. Frye was making. MULTIPLE posts were deleted. Melissa neither edited or deleted any of the posts. Those decisions were made by the board admin. 

A disagreement on an issue is not an arguement. You can have desenting opinions and still have a good converstation. If the whole world was a big ol' "I'm with you man" then it would be a very boring place. You can say the sky is royal blue. I may disagree and say no it's powder blue. Are either one of us incorrect? NO. We just are seeing things differently.

I for one am tired of the threats. I'm tired of the massive smear campaign going on in front of and behind the scenes. And before anyone screams lawsuit or slander or libiel. I have the emails to back it up.

I've been abused in the past. I know the signs. I stood up and screamed NO MORE! I got out of the situation and insisted that I never again will allow myself to be abused by anyone. I've kept quiet during this whole thing for two reasons. One -- I tend to believe that isolated incidents should be dealt with privately. Two -- This just isn't good for my mental health. It's now gotten to the point though that it isn't good for my mental health to stay silent.

Do I agree with the posts that basically say 'see ya'. No. It's sad that it came to this. I think a vast majority of individuals on this board just want the board to get back to normal. (MEANING TALKING ABOUT FROG STUFF.) Does anyone still remember the feeling about this board when it first started? The friendships that were created? Anyone remember the 'whatever I can do to help' attitude? Can we start helping people out again? Can we start having discussions that are topic related? Let's talk about some frogs o.k.?

I'm in this hobby because I love my frogs and I love the friends that I have made. It is unfortunate that the acts of a few cast a shadow over the hobby as a whole...........


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

Sarah,
Thank you for posting what so many of us were waiting to hear. There have been many inexcusable things going on lately that many people have not seen. But I will not into any of that either because like you said, let's get the forum back on the right topic, frogs! All I have to say is, from the things I know that have happened, the moderators have my full support! Keep up the good work guys (and gals)!


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Ok, I am not trying to start anything... just want to know something...

If in the future, I have different opinions than the moderators, should I just keep quiet? Or would I be banned from this board, if I post them?

SB


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## Guest (May 6, 2004)

Nope, we are all new at using this type of forum within this hobby. I want constructive feedback. I'm just trying to make the best forum possible, and am willing to recognize and learn from my mistakes.


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## Guest (May 6, 2004)

*Habit?*

Does this include not erasing everyone's good bye posts? Like John Gibeau's this morning? I know he said somethings that could ruffle some feathers, but was it nessassry to delete it also?


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

> Does this include not erasing everyone's good bye posts? Like John Gibeau's this morning?


John's post is still there.


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## Guest (May 6, 2004)

One is. Not the one that was deleted. Ask John if necessary. It was labeld something like "I have officially decided." He had 2 posts this morning


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Couple of comments, no more..*

First I would like to say that I have kept out of all of the recent happenings until now, and just wanted to offer a couple comments:

When I used to manage people in college, I had to take management classes and something I learned then fits here:

My wording maybe a bit off:
*"praise in public"*
*"reprimand in private"*

I think if you disagree with someone you should discuss it in private. There is no benefit to anyone to bash someone. 

In this hobby there are no standards, and in many case no right or wrong answer. Some people have luck with things, that other people have tried and lost frogs. Its just not an exact science. 

Now this is not to say that there is not any value to public debate, but if you can not do so without putting someone down, or bashing someone then maybe those people should stay out of it. Its all about personal control. 

I think these few issues will do nothing but make the board stronger, and better in the future. I hope everyone involved can work out their differences and move forward. Remember this board is new, and things like this can be expected, it will calm down and get back to normal just give it some time.

Just my 2 cents,


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I agree with Kyle. Keep this private and a little less moderatoration. We all have our own opinions but this public side taking, school yard fight, needs to end. This a board about dendrobates. If you do not like someones opinion shut up and read on. No one is making you read everyones post. I know that I do nnot agree with a few folks buy hey, skip thier post and read on. 
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

I apologize if my reponse to inbloom looked like public bickering  . It truely was not meant that way. I have been monitoring this forum most the day and only saw one post from John (the post on page 3 -- I think -- of this thread).


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