# FREE Veradero frogs!!



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

OK, so a guy has owed me some money for quite some time now. Honestly, I had written it off as a lesson learned. Low and behold, I get a phone call from him saying he heard I was getting back into frogs. This morning, he gave me 5 Veradero juvies and 3 veradero tadpoles!! They are from the Understory line. Now we already purchased 4 Understory Veradero from Alpha Pro. The Alpha Pro ones came from his High Orange line. These new ones (also Understory but from a different group) are from the ones with more Blue Lightening down the back. That's what we call them, Blue Lightening Veraderos!

I know...where's the pictures? Give me a day or two and we'll post some good shots for you.

My good sir, if you are out there reading this, all is forgiven!!
Doug


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> OK, so a guy has owed me some money for quite some time now. Honestly, I had written it off as a lesson learned. Low and behold, I get a phone call from him saying he heard I was getting back into frogs. This morning, he gave me 5 Veradero juvies and 3 veradero tadpoles!! They are from the Understory line. Now we already purchased 4 Understory Veradero from Alpha Pro. The Alpha Pro ones came from his High Orange line. These new ones (also Understory but from a different group) are from the ones with more Blue Lightening down the back. That's what we call them, Blue Lightening Veraderos!
> 
> *I know...where's the pictures? Give me a day or two and we'll post some good shots for you.*
> 
> ...


You got that right


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Awe Man!!!!!!! I thought you were giving some away because of the thread's title!!! Good luck with them.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Me to!! lol


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

You aren't going to line breed these based on color are you?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

mongo77 said:


> Awe Man!!!!!!! I thought you were giving some away because of the thread's title!!! Good luck with them.


No kidding! I was all ready to sign up for my free frogs


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## Venomos (Jun 26, 2009)

frogface said:


> No kidding! I was all ready to sign up for my free frogs


LOL! Me too!

Glad to hear he came through by making it all up to you in the end...Now if just some of the people I have helped would do their good deeds and put my anger aside then all would be great. But the big one has been 7 or 8 years now...So that has been pretty much written off!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Someone is line breeding them for "high orange"? Interesting......


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Are they randomly popping out this way or is it a selectively bred trait? Or is it possible they are a seperate locale with these color variations? If they are not an actual seperate locale all containing this trait I would not futher breed into it. New blood should be introduced into that line or it should be left out of the gene pool. The really dont hold any value as an unrealted line once they are done this way. and its just another unnatural frog in our hobby.

Michael


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Someone is line breeding them for "high orange"? Interesting......


No, they are not being line bred. Sorry if I implied that. Understory has more than one pair of Veradero frog breeding. One group, let's say group A, just happens to throw more frogs with High Orange. The other group, group B, just happens to throw more with blue lightening. Now if I were to select ONLY froglets with High Orange, and grow them up and breed those together, then continue to do the same with the next generation, THAT would be line breeding. That hasn't been done. Just because Jim and Lisa have three kids with blond hair and one with brown, doesn't mean that Jim is Hitler and is trying to create the perfect race. I suppose someone could contact Mark Pepper and ask him about it, But I don't believe Mark or anybody else is doing any line breeding here. He just happens to have a pair that throws a good percentage of High Orange.

Now if there are any hard core geneticists out there, please feel free to correct me. As I see it, there are two groups that come from two different sets of parents. Both sets of parents come from Mark Pepper at Understory. He has collected them from the same location. As I understand it, I could choose to keep group A together and this would be a legitimate group...not line breeding at all unless I were to begin selecting ONLY High Orange for future pairings. Same with group B. I could also choose to pair one frog from group A and one frog from group B together and I still have a legitimate, pure Veradero frog pairing because they are still from the same locality, from Mark Pepper.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Are they randomly popping out this way or is it a selectively bred trait? Or is it possible they are a seperate locale with these color variations? If they are not an actual seperate locale all containing this trait I would not futher breed into it. New blood should be introduced into that line or it should be left out of the gene pool. The really dont hold any value as an unrealted line once they are done this way. and its just another unnatural frog in our hobby.
> 
> Michael


Again, strictly coincidence that one set of Marks parents throw a lot of High Orange. Look at the one he has listed on his site. Obviously this frog has the potential to throw some high orange. No line breeding is being done here.


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## Regalia (Feb 12, 2010)

I almost had a cow. Just spent 300 bucks on my veraderos this weekend!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

mongo77 said:


> Awe Man!!!!!!! I thought you were giving some away because of the thread's title!!! Good luck with them.


Sorry guys. Maybe I should have titled it MY Free Veradero frogs. But I did post it in Members frogs and vivs, rather than somewhere in the trading/selling section.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

plus if he owed you money that weren't really free were they.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Mark has _lots_ of breeding veradero pairs. And he doesn't line breed. He also does what he can to ship out frogs from different bloodlines to discourage inbreeding (typically when you order your frogs from him, instead of getting two from Group A you'll get 1 from group B and one from group E).

A lot of froggers get concerned when they hear a potential line-breeding term (like "high orange," for instance). I think most would encourage you to mix your high orange and low oranges together to discourage future froggers from trying to line-breed this trait.


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## catmanjr (Oct 19, 2010)

sound pretty cool send me some pics of frogs and tank kk.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Mark has _lots_ of breeding veradero pairs. And he doesn't line breed. He also does what he can to ship out frogs from different bloodlines to discourage inbreeding (typically when you order your frogs from him, instead of getting two from Group A you'll get 1 from group B and one from group E).
> 
> A lot of froggers get concerned when they hear a potential line-breeding term (like "high orange," for instance). I think most would encourage you to mix your high orange and low oranges together to discourage future froggers from trying to line-breed this trait.


Thank you Jake! No way would Mark Pepper be line breeding. I would find it hard to believe anyone is more concerned about keeping breeds pure and natural, than Mark.

Now I've got to ask, it's been driving me crazy. Are you a GodSmack fan or where does your name come from?
Doug


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Eric Walker said:


> plus if he owed you money that weren't really free were they.


Well, yeah...but they feel like they are free as I didn't really expect to see the money again as it's been...a long time. But hey, everybody gets in a pinch now and then and in the end, he came through. Plus, the extra tads were over and above, as were all the plants and a couple of wingless melono cultures he gave me. So you can call em payback with interest or you can call em 5 froggies I didn't have on Monday!!
Doug


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Regalia said:


> I almost had a cow. Just spent 300 bucks on my veraderos this weekend!


Totally worth it though, aren't they? Incredible little frogs! Tack a photo of yours onto this thread. And where did you get them? Don't worry bout Hijacking--It's my thread and you've got the invite!

Anybody else want to post pics of your Veraderos here? Let's see how many shots we can get! Don't forget a shot of the Viv they are in. Mine should be up by tomorrow.
Doug


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Are they randomly popping out this way or is it a selectively bred trait? Or is it possible they are a seperate locale with these color variations? If they are not an actual seperate locale all containing this trait I would not futher breed into it. New blood should be introduced into that line or it should be left out of the gene pool. The really dont hold any value as an unrealted line once they are done this way. and its just another unnatural frog in our hobby.
> 
> Michael


That is a random trait and I dont think we should be line breeding them....IMHO


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## Regalia (Feb 12, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Totally worth it though, aren't they? Incredible little frogs! Tack a photo of yours onto this thread. And where did you get them? Don't worry bout Hijacking--It's my thread and you've got the invite!
> 
> Anybody else want to post pics of your Veraderos here? Let's see how many shots we can get! Don't forget a shot of the Viv they are in. Mine should be up by tomorrow.
> Doug


They really were completely worth it. I'm obsessed. I just got them on sunday at the Montreal expo from Al at Friendly Frogs. They've spent most of their time hiding, I guess they need time to settle in. Hopefully soon they'll start coming out more. 

Unfortunately I've had lots of trouble photographing them. You can see my viv and pics here in the thread I posted the other day: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...irst-darts-their-re-constructed-vivarium.html 

Let me know what you think! I could use the feedback.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

sports_doc said:


> That is a random trait and I dont think we should be line breeding them....IMHO


I agree completely. I don't know anybody who is line breeding. Everybody seems to go nuts over the ones with lots of orange. Honestly, it was the blue lightening down the back of some that originally made me take notice and decide the time was right to get back into frogs! I love that the Veraderos can be so uniquely, and individually marked.
Doug


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Regalia said:


> They really were completely worth it. I'm obsessed. I just got them on sunday at the Montreal expo from Al at Friendly Frogs. They've spent most of their time hiding, I guess they need time to settle in. Hopefully soon they'll start coming out more.
> 
> Unfortunately I've had lots of trouble photographing them. You can see my viv and pics here in the thread I posted the other day: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...irst-darts-their-re-constructed-vivarium.html
> 
> Let me know what you think! I could use the feedback.


Very nice Viv! Excellent growth. Great cover! They will definately get more bold as they settle in. By supplying so many great hiding spots, they will begin to realize that it is OK to come out because cover is only a hop away! The only thing we can't see in the pictures is microfauna. Did you seed the Viv with springtails and isopods/woodlice? Makes a great between meal snack and supplies them with something to hunt. By the way, the price you paid is pretty much standard for Veradero right now. 
Doug


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Really sweet return on lost money.......Can't complain about that....I also have both lines of UE Varaderos. My female is what would be called the "High Orange" and my male and juvies are the "Blue lightning". I haven't gotten them to breed yet but hope too....Will be interesting to see what variety the offspring will be or the variability will be.

That is a great unexpected pick up Congrats.........


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## randa4 (Jul 29, 2010)

Even mentioning Alpha Pro's "Line" of High Orange makes me nervous. If anyone is line breeding, it can destroy the integrity of the natural gene pool. It appears the folks attempting this are also not educated in genetics. Who can tell if "High Orange" is a dominant or recessive trait, and has it been mapped to determine same? Is there published scientific data to substantiate how the amount of orange pigment is expressed in Varadero offspring? Just looking at F1 progeny and making statements about genome expressions is absurd. Mark Pepper protects this gene pool integrity by mixing and matching his breeding groups from the same locality. To intentionally look or plan for more orange is a bad approach to the hobby and to genetics as a whole.

BTW isn't it "Varadero," for the physical locality in Peru? Not "Veradero."
________________________________________________________
Mike in Helotes


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## Regalia (Feb 12, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Very nice Viv! Excellent growth. Great cover! They will definately get more bold as they settle in. By supplying so many great hiding spots, they will begin to realize that it is OK to come out because cover is only a hop away! The only thing we can't see in the pictures is microfauna. Did you seed the Viv with springtails and isopods/woodlice? Makes a great between meal snack and supplies them with something to hunt. By the way, the price you paid is pretty much standard for Veradero right now.
> Doug


Thank you very much. I'm really proud of it, and it's my first viv too! They aren't running away as much when I approach the viv now. 

I did add some springtails but I'm not sure where they all went. I gave them two weeks to settle in before adding the frogs but they've all kind of vanished. 

I paid 125 each, plus i bought some plants and got a few things tossed in for free. But yea, pretty much standard pricing.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Totally worth it though, aren't they? Incredible little frogs! Tack a photo of yours onto this thread. And where did you get them? Don't worry bout Hijacking--It's my thread and you've got the invite!
> 
> Anybody else want to post pics of your Veraderos here? Let's see how many shots we can get! Don't forget a shot of the Viv they are in. Mine should be up by tomorrow.
> Doug


They are the reason I quit reefing after 25 years.....Favorite frog animal all time.....

Here is a couple pics of mine and the viv.....Group of 5- 1.1.3

















The Viv...60g cube 24"x24"x24"


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

randa4 said:


> Even mentioning Alpha Pro's "Line" of High Orange makes me nervous. If anyone is line breeding, it can destroy the integrity of the natural gene pool. It appears the folks attempting this are also not educated in genetics. Who can tell if "High Orange" is a dominant or recessive trait, and has it been mapped to determine same? Is there published scientific data to substantiate how the amount of orange pigment is expressed in Varadero offspring? Just looking at F1 progeny and making statements about genome expressions is absurd. Mark Pepper protects this gene pool integrity by mixing and matching his breeding groups from the same locality. To intentionally look or plan for more orange is a bad approach to the hobby and to genetics as a whole.
> 
> BTW isn't it "Varadero," for the physical locality in Peru? Not "Veradero."
> ________________________________________________________
> Mike in Helotes


Did you read the thread? Nobody is line breeding. Alpha Pro is *NOT* line breeding. Nobody is line breeding. Seriously! Nobody is pairing up frogs to intentionally get more orange! There is nothing you can do about the fact that some frogs happen to throw more froglets with a high percentage of orange. Mark Pepper has a frog with a lot of orange. Somebody decided to call it High Orange simply meaning there is a high percentage of orange in it. Some of its offspring are bound to have a lot of orange in it. Why does this mean that anybody is selective breeding for the trait? Maybe I could have worded it differently but come on people. Please stop jumping to conclusions! *NOBODY* is line breeding for the trait!


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## bobzarry (Mar 2, 2005)

Not a great pic but here is one of mine.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Azurel said:


> They are the reason I quit reefing after 25 years.....Favorite frog animal all time.....
> 
> Here is a couple pics of mine and the viv.....Group of 5- 1.1.3
> 
> ...


Beautiful Viv! That's a lot of space for them. They must be lovin life!!
Doug


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

bobzarry said:


> Not a great pic but here is one of mine.


Nice frog Bobzarry! Man he sure looks intent on something, doesn't he? Gotta be eyeing dinner!
Doug


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

THanks Doug.....Great pic Bobzarry...

When my brother first saw them he said "Reminds me of a old merc hotrod with a flame paint job".......I was like yup the totally describes them. There are other beautiful frogs but when it come to intense color Varadero is tops.....


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Azurel said:


> THanks Doug.....Great pic Bobzarry...
> 
> When my brother first saw them he said "Reminds me of a old merc hotrod with a flame paint job".......I was like yup the totally describes them. There are other beautiful frogs but when it come to intense color Varadero is tops.....


Nice! Except they are faster than that old merc hotrod!
Doug


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Thank you Jake! No way would Mark Pepper be line breeding. I would find it hard to believe anyone is more concerned about keeping breeds pure and natural, than Mark.
> 
> Now I've got to ask, it's been driving me crazy. Are you a GodSmack fan or where does your name come from?
> Doug


I am a bit of a Godsmack fan. I've been to three of their concerts, but I don't listen to them a lot anymore outside of their concerts (although whenever they come to town I make sure to go as they put on an awesome show). Back when the original Xbox Live featrure came out I was trying to think of a badass screen name. Godsmack certainly did inspire it, but it was intended to be more of a "I'm the smack of the gods incarnate sent to smite other gamers" than a "oh my gosh, Godsmack is the best ever!" I've now got more or less of a monopoly on the name: Xbox live, Playstation, gmail, yahoo, msn, none of them need numbers after them either, so now whenever I need a screen name I just run with it.

By the way, if you've got too many veraderos over there you're more than welcome to send me a female


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I am a bit of a Godsmack fan. I've been to three of their concerts, but I don't listen to them a lot anymore outside of their concerts (although whenever they come to town I make sure to go as they put on an awesome show). Back when the original Xbox Live featrure came out I was trying to think of a badass screen name. Godsmack certainly did inspire it, but it was intended to be more of a "I'm the smack of the gods incarnate sent to smite other gamers" than a "oh my gosh, Godsmack is the best ever!" I've now got more or less of a monopoly on the name: Xbox live, Playstation, gmail, yahoo, msn, none of them need numbers after them either, so now whenever I need a screen name I just run with it.
> 
> By the way, if you've got too many veraderos over there you're more than welcome to send me a female


Sweet, Never seen em live but love their early work. A spare frog?? I don't understand...what is this spare frog? Seriously though, the first group are 10 to 12 months old and just happen to be 2.2. Could I be any luckier? Or maybe Ron just knows how to take care of his customers! So these will be split into two groups before the start of the week. The others will need to age several months before any accurate sexing can be done. They are some tank raised lil guys so he is not positive about the age. But going by size, I'm guessing they are only a couple months out. They are still kind of wrestling with wingless melonos so man was I pleased to see Michael's (Poison Beauties) springtails arrive today! His cultures ROCK with a wide variety of springs. 

So you are welcome to pm me in a couple months and check.
Doug


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Nice that you didn't end up getting screwed over after all. Not a bad way to settle a debt.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

with that title, this thread has 965 views in just over 24 hours


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Did you read the thread? Nobody is line breeding. Alpha Pro is *NOT* line breeding. Nobody is line breeding. Seriously!


I think the problem is stemming from your original post in which you claimed to get frogs from Line X in addition to the ones you already have from Line Y. You yourself used the term "line"...so one of the only reasonable assumptions for someone reading the post is that people are line breeding frogs from this population of imitator. 

Yes, I read the thread. And after reading your initial post, assumed you were inferring that people were line breeding this frog.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> I think the problem is stemming from your original post in which you claimed to get frogs from Line X in addition to the ones you already have from Line Y. You yourself used the term "line"...so one of the only reasonable assumptions for someone reading the post is that people are line breeding frogs from this population of imitator.
> 
> Yes, I read the thread. And after reading your initial post, assumed you were inferring that people were line breeding this frog.


Thanks Ron, I know, I worded that very badly. Unfortunately, it's too late for me to edit that. The site won't let me edit it anymore. If there were any way Kyle would let me, I would eat my words in a heartbeat. I did contact Ron at Alpha Pro Breeders to point out my Faux Pas, seeing as it may concern him. He has confirmed, of course, that he is NOT line breeding for orange or for anything. I know for a fact that the other gentleman that I got the "free" Varaderos from is NOT line breeding for blue lightning or for anything else. He has a long history of quality breeding and shares Mark Peppers concerns about keeping bloodlines pure and natural.
Doug


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