# POLL: What frogs do you consider ETHICAL to own.



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ok with all the recent threads about what frogs are illegal and/or ethical to own and posts of animals that some might consider the origins of questionable, I'm having trouble figuring out on the whole as a hobby what our stance is...what constitutes a frog that is unethical to own? I'm avoiding saying that a frog is Illegal since the technical legality is somewhat of a grey area in many cases and the more important question seems to be not what is legal or illegal but what is ethical or unethical...Likely many people's legal opinions will reflect at least to a degree their ethical ones, so in a sense we will be covering that base anyways.

I know the general consensus for mixing species and morphs especially for newer people and that most of us feel hybrid animals are bad, and I have a pretty good idea at least where we come down on most other issues but this one has eluded me so far. I'm not talking about my own stance, or what I think is right, I'm interested in what the hobby as a whole says is ethical. 

So this will only work if we get a fair number of responses....so please do respond. You don't have to post and wade into the drama if there is any...and really I'd like to avoid it. I just want your personal opinion on which frogs are ethical to own. Please no accusing or implying other members frogs are illegal or that they are unethical...no need for that here.

Ok I've put the options below here instead of in the poll since I think last time I tried to make a poll my sentences were to long and my options wouldn't fit  So just read these and select the corresponding number in the poll options please. 

Options...

1. Having legal paper work from EU to USA, or the government isn't likely to consider my frog illegal or confiscate it makes it fine ethically regardless of how some or all of the frogs got to the EU and/or USA.

2. If the frogs have legal paper work and at least some frogs were exported to the EU from the host country legally but never the USA they are fine if I can get legal paper work for them.(In theory this could legitimize future or past smuggled animals)

3. Even frogs that are legal to own and/or have paper work are not ok if they could be used to legitimize previously or future smuggled animals. This could mean red galacts and other common established frogs in the hobby would be unethical to own.


4. Even frogs that are legal to own and/or have paper work are not ok if they could be used to legitimize previously or future smuggled animals. Unless the frog is already established in the hobby or at least has a foot hold here.(would include all frogs being being imported from EU with papers)


5. Even frogs that are legal to own and/or have paper work are not ok if they could be used to legitimize previously or future smuggled animals. Except ones already well established here...frogs with just a foot hold are still unethical even with paper work unless they came from founder stock legally imported with the permission of the host country to the USA. This excludes frogs with papers from the EU

6. Any Frog that was never legally exported from its host country to the EU or USA is unethical regardless of paper work or being established in the EU or USA hobby. (Intended to mean mostly that only frogs exported from host country and their offspring to your country legally are ethical to own)

7. Only frogs with no paper work, not legally exported from host country, and not already established here or having a foot hold here are unethical (This is mainly intended to cover newly smuggled morphs/species. Meaning if you can get legal paper work for it or its already here in the usa and not a truly and recently smuggled animal it is fine and ethical to own)

8. I don't believe in most or all cases that any frog legally imported with papers or currently well established in the hobby can be used to legitimize past or future smuggled animals thus any frog that was legally imported from the host country or the EU is ethical to own.

9. The only ethical frogs to own are ones that are KNOWN to have been legally imported to the general public in the USA and any frog bred from that stock is ok, ALL other frogs are unethical to own regardless of paperwork or legality in other countries.

10. Other (Please explain)

I think if you think about these options and their implications carefully they cover most scenarios...but if a hole emerges I'll see about including other options and having the poll edited. Thank you for your time!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

My poll has had 74 views as I type this and 0 responses. I have refrained from responding myself so far because I'm still trying to figure out just what I find to be ethical...but I can't believe that out of 73 other people no one has figured out their own position. So on this issue I am siding with Fred...I'm shocked that more people here aren't willing to answer an ANONYMOUS poll. Or speak out in any way. 

No one has even bothered to say my options were flawed thus limiting the validity of the poll...so I can only assume after 73 other views that is not the reason most people are shying away from the poll...I can think of few other reasons that frankly aren't shameful. Hate to say it but so far it looks like Fred was right on that point at least. Shame on us.

The poll is anonymous, no one will see what you voted for unless you post and tell us what you voted for and why.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Patience, my friend. I agree with the intent of the poll but instead of penning the survey in Hemmingway-esque fashion you chose Tolstoy, or even Joyce! I'll wager that most folks, like myself, took a quick look and decided to revisit later when more time is available to read the novella of choices (esp. when, as you note, there are quite a few gray areas re: this topic).


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

If I could start all over, the only frogs in my collection would be from totally legal, sustainable origins...for example, INIBCO or Understory, and offspring from those frogs.

No quasi-technicality legal, or euro-washed BS...

That being said, I have high ideals in just about everything I care about...

I voted 10, but after re-reading, it looks like I probably should have voted 3


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> Patience, my friend. I agree with the intent of the poll but instead of penning the survey in Hemmingway-esque fashion you chose Tolstoy, or even Joyce! I'll wager that most folks, like myself, took a quick look and decided to revisit later when more time is available to read the novella of choices (esp. when, as you note, there are quite a few gray areas re: this topic).


I agree, those choices need to be re-read when I can spare the time to look at them for a while


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Which is why I initially voted 10...I shoulda waited till my esspresso wore down some...


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I briefly looked through the options, but I think my stance is a little different. Some people may disagree with me, but I personally draw the ethical line at more of cb vs. smuggled instead of legal papers/ laundered frogs. For me, if the frog was captive bred (and I would have to know this for sure not just be told it) AND is not directly F1 from an illegal, smuggled pair of frogs I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with owning it. 

For example, galacts and BYH's, which from what I hear have technically never been exported from Brazil, I still wouldn't have a problem buying. Now, I would not buy a WC illegal pair of galacts, and I would probably not even get F1 offspring from such frogs if I knew for sure that the parent frogs were smuggled. I also would not buy something that is illegal to own, period, whether cb or wc, like mystis. 

Here's a question for you guys- how does buying cb frogs from frogs that came in a while ago illegally support the smugglers? (if anybody can think of something I missed please let me know.) The smugglers make money off the illegal WC frogs they sell. Somebody buys them, which I don't agree with but once they are bought there is no way to undo that. So this person breeds them and sells cb offspring. The smugglers do not have a deal where they get x amount extra for every offspring sold, and I don't see how that would increase demand, if anything it would help by increasing supply in order to supply the demand while preventing other frogs that may have been taken from the wild to meet the demand. 

I guess it also depends of the seller. That's part of the reason I probably wouldn't get F1 of smuggled frogs. If the original buyer was ok with knowingly purchasing smuggled frogs and wiping them out in the wild, then I would not support or condone that breeder by buying his frogs. 

But like I said, there are a lot of frogs that may have never been technically legally exported but are now very common in the hobby. I don't have a problem with buying the captive bred frogs that are already here because those do not hurt the wild population, what I would absolutely refuse is the wild caught smuggled frogs that the smugglers are wiping out illegally.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

It inderectly supports smuggling...in the way that, a breeder buys the "hot" new frog because he knows he can make his money back in a short amount of time...if you buy offspring from the breeder, he then has extra money to make his next illegal purchase...and why wouldn't they? Especially when that hot frog that commanded a couple hundred bucks turns into something that goes for less than half that a year or two later...

Similar to buying blood diamonds, and saying that, since they are already here, the damage is already done.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> Patience, my friend. I agree with the intent of the poll but instead of penning the survey in Hemmingway-esque fashion you chose Tolstoy, or even Joyce! I'll wager that most folks, like myself, took a quick look and decided to revisit later when more time is available to read the novella of choices (esp. when, as you note, there are quite a few gray areas re: this topic).


LOL ya the plan was initially to have more simple straightforward options but then all the scenarios and variables started going through my head and it just seemed impossible to do the topic justice without making the options kinda long winded  

Nice literary references by the way...though from my limited exposure I lean more towards Whitman, Emmerson, and Thoreau  ...Or a crap load of science, or sci-fi/fantasy authors!


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Good points, I didn't think of it that way. And I do not condone other people buying smuggled frogs which is why I said I wouldn't personally buy from them. I guess my point is that once they are here, be they descended from legal or smuggled frogs, we should focus on breeding them instead of arguing about them.


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Hi Baltimore Brian;



> I guess my point is that once they are here, be they descended from legal or smuggled frogs, we should focus on breeding them instead of arguing about them.



And what about if they don't breed easy and fast enough, (like the type of frogs we are talking about), then we just keep on let them coming in, untill they are wiped out in nature, like the lehmanni?

I think we can say fairly that there are much more of these frogs being smuggled then there are being bred in the last -say 30 years- and it's not a bottomless pit..

That's what it's all about.

What are your thoughts about this?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Dave,

I think you may also have some clarity issues as the question asked is 
quote Which option best decribes and includes the Frogs you feel are Ethical to own?endquote 
and then in most options you consistently reference unethical as the answer instead of ethical. 

You also left off the list, frogs that were confiscated and then released to the private sector by govermental agencies. 

Ed


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

Frogs are frogs...an AKC registered dog is a great thing to own if you are planning to show the pup but a real cute mutt is just as loveble. I understand the effort to keep the bloodline pure, however, I also understand the feeling of keeping these unique animals. I think there are enough breeders that can supply the pet market..maybe we need to focus on the import of WC frogs.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

I can't make sense of those options, but here is my view.

I view it unethical if by purchasing the frogs you can reasonably argue that you are encouraging smuggling from the wild. This includes...
-Buying WC smuggled
-Buying captive bred frogs from non-established smuggled stock


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

dunno if this will help....I made this a while back. It's a continuum from one extreme to the other.


* The hobby ethics tree*

 i. Any frog, from anywhere. No questions asked. Ever
 ii. A species is in the country now, so it is absolutely fair game to acquire WC or EU imports.
 iii. I realize it came here illegally, so I will only acquire CB offspring of that species.
 iv. I will acquire Legal WC frogs, but only from permitted businesses with tax ID numbers ect.
 v. I will acquire only CB frogs from legally acquired species. 
 vi. I will acquire only site / locale specific frogs from hobbyists that can back them up.
 vii. I will not keep any frogs whatsoever for a variety of moral reasons.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

fred said:


> And what about if they don't breed easy and fast enough, (like the type of frogs we are talking about), then we just keep on let them coming in, untill they are wiped out in nature, like the lehmanni?
> 
> I think we can say fairly that there are much more of these frogs being smuggled then there are being bred in the last -say 30 years- and it's not a bottomless pit..
> 
> ...


Nope, I agree with you here. I do realize that some of these frogs in question are much less prolific and difficult to breed than others. I am certainly not encouraging the frogs to be smuggled until there are enough to start a captive breeding population. I meant that I hope the frogs already here will breed successfully enough, that given time (I know, a long time probably) we can hopefully be more successful and learn more about how to breed them. I hope that these frogs in the wild we are talking about stay there in their habitat.

I honestly do not know how many frogs are being smuggled vs. those being bred from the legal imports. If I had to take a guess I would unfortunately say that more frogs are probably being smuggled and head to EU than being captive bred, but I do know that lots of the old time experienced froggers that may own some of the legal imports of them do not use Dendroboard (or at least frequently) so I don't know how many are being bred. There are some threads on here of successful breeding and raising offspring descending from the very early legal imports. I think we are learning more and more about how to breed these with the best results and people are starting to have more success with them. I am sure that sadly many of the frogs imported in the 80's or 70's died because almost nobody knew how to breed for them/ care for them or even feed them. But I believe that now more people are having success with them there will be much more cb offspring. I just hope that this is before the wild population is gone.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I think you may also have some clarity issues as the question asked is
> quote Which option best decribes and includes the Frogs you feel are Ethical to own?endquote
> ...


Ya my phrasing is a little complicated. I had trouble coming up with phrasing that sounded straight forward yet covered as many scenarios as possible. Plus I think a little differently then a lot of people...to me when I read those the implications are more obvious, but people who don't think in those terms might actually find them less obvious. Let me re list them and see if I can translate my wacky thought patterns 

1. Having legal paper work from EU to USA, or the government isn't likely to consider my frog illegal or confiscate it makes it fine ethically regardless of how some or all of the frogs got to the EU and/or USA.
Basically any frog that you aren't likely to get in trouble for even if someone reports you, gives them proof you have it and tells them where to find you is ethical to own. This would mean frogs confiscated then re released to the private sector are ok to own also.
2. If the frogs have legal paper work and at least some frogs were exported to the EU from the host country legally but never the USA they are fine if I can get legal paper work for them.(In theory this could legitimize future or past smuggled animals)
This means frogs never legally exported to the USA but were legally exported to the EU are OK if you can get legal paper work to bring them here. It also assumes any other frogs with legit papers are ok and is meant to include all frogs common in the hobby and foot hold species that were legally imported at some time are ethical to own. I believe it would also mean confiscated frogs released to the private sector are ethical to own since the implications are nearly identical for having them
3. Even frogs that are legal to own and/or have paper work are not ok if they could be used to legitimize previously or future smuggled animals. This could mean red galacts and other common established frogs in the hobby would be unethical to own.
This is intended to mean that only common frogs in the hobby that have been legally exported by their host countries to the general public and are established or had a foot hold for years are ethical. It also means that any of the newer frogs from understory or INIBICO would probably be considered unethical to own since in theory they could be used to cover smuggled animals of the same type. It also assumes there is a risk of new smuggled versions of red galacts and other species possibly never legally exported from their host country could start coming in at some point and the old frogs used to legitimize them. This would mean confiscated frogs released by Gov to the private sector should also be considered unethical because they could in theory be used to legitimize smuggled animals. I didn't word this option well and you could take its implication to mean basically all frogs...but that was not intended 

4. Even frogs that are legal to own and/or have paper work are not ok if they could be used to legitimize previously or future smuggled animals. Unless the frog is already established in the hobby or at least has a foot hold here.(would include all frogs being being imported from EU with papers)

This means that only common frogs in the hobby that have been established or had a foot hold for years are ethical. It also means that any of the newer frogs from understory or INIBICO would probably be considered unethical to own since in theory they could be used to cover smuggled animals of the same type. It assumes the risk of this happening with older established frogs is low - zero. Basically it means only what we had a few years ago and only frogs imported from the EU that were also legally imported to the USA are ok. It would also mean confiscated frogs re released are ok if they are species already established but frogs that would be new to the hobby are not. All newer frogs are unethical

5. Even frogs that are legal to own and/or have paper work are not ok if they could be used to legitimize previously or future smuggled animals. Except ones already well established here...frogs with just a foot hold are still unethical even with paper work unless they came from founder stock legally imported with the permission of the host country to the USA. This excludes frogs with papers from the EU. I think this one is fairly clear, but it includes the important point that new EU imports of foot hold species would be considered unethical. And it also makes understory and Inibico frogs unethical. Meaning only new legal imports directly to the USA from host country of previously established frogs are ethical. Lets say this option leaves the question of confiscated re released animals being ethical on case by case nature to be answered by each individual for themselves.

6. Any Frog that was never legally exported from its host country to the EU or USA is unethical regardless of paper work or being established in the EU or USA hobby. (Intended to mean mostly that only frogs exported from host country and their offspring to your country legally are ethical to own)
Pretty clear I think but means any frog generally considered truly legal and has no questionable origins. Would mean red galacts and such frogs are unethical. I think this one leans more towards making confiscated re released frogs unethical in spirit 
7. Only frogs with no paper work, not legally exported from host country, and not already established here or having a foot hold here are unethical (This is mainly intended to cover newly smuggled morphs/species. Meaning if you can get legal paper work for it or its already here in the usa and not a truly and recently smuggled animal it is fine and ethical to own). I think this one is more in the spirit of leaving the question of confiscated re released animals up to the individual, or at least the poll is better served by assuming that.

8. I don't believe in most or all cases that any frog legally imported with papers or currently well established in the hobby can be used to legitimize past or future smuggled animals thus any frog that was legally imported from the host country or the EU is ethical to own. This means if you can get papers it is fine, and upon re reading it is basically the same as #1 ...I messed up so we will add the the votes for this option to the votes of option 1. My bad  Confiscated re released animals woule likely be ethical.

9. The only ethical frogs to own are ones that are KNOWN to have been legally imported to the general public in the USA and any frog bred from that stock is ok, ALL other frogs are unethical to own regardless of paperwork or legality in other countries. Means red galacts and similar frogs would be unethical, a long with any EU imports of frogs not legally exported to the USA by host country. I think it best serves the poll to leave the confiscated frog question open here.

10. Other (Please explain)

Ok well this isn't perfect but I think it is an improvement...except for being even more long winded LOL 

I'll see if I can get a Mod to replace the old options with these revised options.


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Nope, I agree with you here. I do realize that some of these frogs in question are much less prolific and difficult to breed than others. I am certainly not encouraging the frogs to be smuggled until there are enough to start a captive breeding population. I meant that I hope the frogs already here will breed successfully enough, that given time (I know, a long time probably) we can hopefully be more successful and learn more about how to breed them. I hope that these frogs in the wild we are talking about stay there in their habitat.
> 
> I honestly do not know how many frogs are being smuggled vs. those being bred from the legal imports. If I had to take a guess I would unfortunately say that more frogs are probably being smuggled and head to EU than being captive bred, but I do know that lots of the old time experienced froggers that may own some of the legal imports of them do not use Dendroboard (or at least frequently) so I don't know how many are being bred. There are some threads on here of successful breeding and raising offspring descending from the very early legal imports. I think we are learning more and more about how to breed these with the best results and people are starting to have more success with them. I am sure that sadly many of the frogs imported in the 80's or 70's died because almost nobody knew how to breed for them/ care for them or even feed them. But I believe that now more people are having success with them there will be much more cb offspring. I just hope that this is before the wild population is gone.



Hi Baltimore Brian,

In the last -say 30 years- there are a lot of these frogs been smuggled, first not too much, because there were just not so much hobbyists, but later -from the nineties- the amount of hobbysts got bigger and bigger, so also the amount of smuggled frogs.
The demand gets bigger, but the populations only get smaller because of different reasons like habitat-loss, chitrid, smuggling and maybe more.

I don't know if people are really more succesfull in breeding these frogs; in the past the hobby was small, so not much breeding; at this moment the hobby is much bigger, so there is logical also more breeding going on.

Wild populations are allready gone and dissapearing, so maybe time to do something about it now?

This hobby can be a good way to give people interest, and bring then more close to nature.
We are working with nature..it's not just putting some frogs in a tank..

Sorry Dave, It's not my intention to start discussions on your poll..

By the way; maybe you can make the options more compact and clear, I think then you will get a lot more reactions..that's also why I didn't react yet..
Now it is changed, for me f.e. it is even more difficult to concentrate on it.
Not everybody is used to deal with so much words..


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fred said:


> Hi Baltimore Brian,
> 
> In the last -say 30 years- there are a lot of these frogs been smuggled, first not too much, because there were just not so much hobbyists, but later -from the nineties- the amount of hobbysts got bigger and bigger, so also the amount of smuggled frogs.
> The demand gets bigger, but the populations only get smaller because of different reasons like habitat-loss, chitrid, smuggling and maybe more.
> ...


It is a complicated issue with a lot of different scenarios...I don't know how to phrase the options anymore concisely. If you'll notice the statements in red meant to clarify the options are almost as long or longer in some cases then the options themselves LOL...so ya if anyone wants to take a shot at phrasing the options more concisely while still accounting for as many scenarios as possible they are more then welcome to try. So far I can't figure out how to do it while still doing justice to such an important topic. I'm afraid over simplifying the poll will make it worthless.


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> It is a complicated issue with a lot of different scenarios...I don't know how to phrase the options anymore concisely. If you'll notice the statements in red meant to clarify the options are almost as long or longer in some cases then the options themselves LOL...so ya if anyone wants to take a shot at phrasing the options more concisely while still accounting for as many scenarios as possible they are more then welcome to try. So far I can't figure out how to do it while still doing justice to such an important topic. I'm afraid over simplifying the poll will make it worthless.


You've got a point there, Dave.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I think you should probably take a crack at serious simplifying.

I doubt more than 10% of us are reading, comprehending and electing to respond to that huge block of.....stuff.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Dendro Dave said:


> 5. Even frogs that are legal to own and/or have paper work are not ok if they could be used to legitimize previously or future smuggled animals. Except ones already well established here...frogs with just a foot hold are still unethical even with paper work unless they came from founder stock legally imported with the permission of the host country to the USA. This excludes frogs with papers from the EU. I think this one is fairly clear, but it includes the important point that new EU imports of foot hold species would be considered unethical. And it also makes understory and Inibico frogs unethical. Meaning only new legal imports directly to the USA from host country of previously established frogs are ethical. Lets say this option leaves the question of confiscated re released animals being ethical on case by case nature to be answered by each individual for themselves.



Well crap i voted wrong. in that case i choose other. i think its unethical to own frogs that are known to be WC (if they were not caught sustainably) or known to be from smuggled origins. with the exception of things like terribilis that are established. in other words, they are here and have been for a long time. some frogs i have a problem with that we KNOW were originally smuggled, ‘varaderos’ (not from UE), ‘sisa’ bassleri (same), vanzos (same).

HOWEVER, due to UE not being able to make as much money for conservation, i also have a problem with the intermedius and yurimaguensis. if more people focused on the site specific populations, it would be a lot better.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

thedude said:


> ...... i also have a problem with the intermedius and yurimaguensis. if more people focused on the site specific populations, it would be a lot better.


I understand your point, but wanted to also say that we shouldn't equate site specific with a conservation effort.

..
..
..

Also, No Dave's poll and explanations are not too complex [nor do they need simplification/dumbing down]. It is afterall a very complex issue, that I suspect will never be 'resolved'. 

S


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

sports_doc said:


> I understand your point, but wanted to also say that we shouldn't equate site specific with a conservation effort.
> 
> S


fair enough. i suppose its 2 seperate things. we should focus on breeding the UE populations because we know they werent smuggled and it helps them with conservation. and we should focus on keeping the site specific frogs for obvious reasons, especially given how small the gene pool is for some of the older lines of frogs. example: golden amazonica


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Here's a question for you guys- how does buying cb frogs from frogs that came in a while ago illegally support the smugglers? (if anybody can think of something I missed please let me know.) The smugglers make money off the illegal WC frogs they sell. Somebody buys them, which I don't agree with but once they are bought there is no way to undo that. So this person breeds them and sells cb offspring. The smugglers do not have a deal where they get x amount extra for every offspring sold, and I don't see how that would increase demand, if anything it would help by increasing supply in order to supply the demand while preventing other frogs that may have been taken from the wild to meet the demand.


There are basically 2 types of smugglers. The type that sells everything as soon as they get it (ie Strictly Reptiles) and the second that usually collects and smuggles for themselves and close friends. I think this is the more common frog smuggler-type. In the tarantula hobby for example, Poecilotheria metallica was initially smuggled by one individual who went on to breed several of them wit a friend. Each eggsac has 60-100 spiderlings and those first spiderlings were selling for $250 ea! This was about 8 years ago and this smuggler/breeder is still producing them and still getting $100+ for spiderlings. The individuals who smuggled them, continue to make money off of them nearly a decade later. If a smuggler brings in a new tinc morph from Brazil, they could produce hundreds before even introducing them to the hobby. And then hundreds more before buyers are producing their own young. So, I think for a majority of rare frog species/morphs, the smuggler is the initial breeder AND makes money for years to come. The money then funds travel for the next new thing.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I voted for "10". I think a good start toward an ethical collection would be to not buy wild-collected or imported "farm-raised" frogs (especially O. pumilio, which is a CITES II-listed species). I acquire almost all my frogs from other breeders that I know personally that produced the frogs themselves (I don't like buying and selling frogs as a way to produce income off the frogs). I also rarely buy frogs and try to focus on trading with other breeders (this can take away the "profit" motive entirely and improve good-will all around).

I also believe those that smuggle frogs should be prosecuted.

Thanks for the posting, Richard.


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