# video showing my frog's mouth shut feeding



## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

I made a post about this and had a crappy cell phone video, didn't really get a lot of replies, and had a suggestion that it could by or sounded like STS (short tongue syndrome). After reading up on it, I don't think that's it and I had my actual camera during feeding tonight. Got a decent quality (shallow depth of field when zoomed in, I kept having to move back and forth) showing that he does eat normal some time, but others just jerks his head and doesn't open his mouth at all. at the end of the vid is the female clearly showing you CAN see their tongues come out for a split second, someone commented it was too fast to see and that he was probably feeding fine and it was normal for me not to be able to see their tongue come out of their mouth...

Pets 09 :: MOV02139.flv video by andyoconnor832 - Photobucket


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## laylow (Apr 6, 2009)

Good looking Cobalts but they are looking VERY skinny. I'd check on parasites ASAP.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

I would guess that it is skinny because it is unable to eat. 

I don't know whats wrong, but I hope someone can help you. That's really sad to see that he is so hungry and trying to eat, but can't.

Also, I agree, I can easily see my frogs tongues when they are eating.


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## waterbed fred (Jan 10, 2010)

almost looks like he might have the hiccups. is that possible????


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

I have received a few brazillian yellowhead froglets that came in looking like that, maybe smaller. They would try and try to eat, lunging their entire bodies. They lasted for a while so they must have been grabbing one here and there. I picked both up and had a look at them and they both had the same thing going on with their lower jaws. It seemed that their lower jaws were too short to connect to their upper. I'm guessing birth defect as these froglets were very young. You might want to take a look at it. Be careful, when they are malnurished due to not being able to catch food effectively they seizure easily when stressed. Mine eventually seizured and died in their tanks. I ended up with one beautiful yellowhead out of the deal instead of three. Good luck! I hope everything turns out ok with the little cobalt!


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

In the last few seconds, it looks as if everything is functioning as normal... perhaps some sort of neurological issue?


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

Looks like a calcium deficiency , when PDF’s do not get the right amount of supplementation such as calcium their nervous system is greatly affected rendering them unable to eat. ( catch ff’s ) If this is left untreated seizure can occur, leading to death. 
I suggest you put calcium in a spray bottle and spray them with it to get some cal. In their system.. Hope its not to late.. Good luck


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I have seen that before in a couple other peoples collections and my own...

1. Seperate the frog

2. Get a fecal done 

3. Continue to feed _every single day_

4. Make sure your suppliments(calc and vits) are good / fresh/ and dust with every single feeding


The FF in that video did not look dusted....

It is possible to put some quick weight and size back on a skinny frog if he is willing to eat like yours seems to be. I've done it. 

Youre just going to have to keep dropping dusted FF in front of it on a daily basis and give it multiple feedings of flies.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

try feeding some fly larve as well adn see if they can take those to put some weight on them fast.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

I dust every feeding for all my froglets. I even did a pedialite soak and used calcium gluconate with my brazillian yellowheads. Every single one of my other froglets is approaching adulthood or very FAT. I did everything in the book for my two little sick ones. Wasn't enough to save them. They had to have had some underlying cause as to why they could not catch food. They came from a reputable breeder whom I have purchased at least 17-18 frogs off of. I wouldn't assume everything is a calcium deficciency unless you do not dust with the proper supplements. I believe some froglets have certain conditions that inhibit them from eating properly (STS). Which would lead to a calcium deficiency and all the symptoms that come with it, seizures..ect. Being able to catch one food item out of 100 is not nearly enough. No matter what you are trying to feed them.


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Man that video was gutting.

As Josh says, its so sad that hes obviously hungry and cant do anything about it.

I don't have any valuable input other than to give whatever these guys suggest a shot atleast.

Would be a great shame to see that lil beauty perish.

Hope all turns out well..

Goodluck

Richie


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

OK I am going to separate them today and try a few suggestions. For more insight, these are a pair I've had nearly 2 years, they are about 1 year, 10 months out of water, and spent most of their lives in a 10 gallon with no problems other than it was so overgrown they started getting caught up in the plants, so I put this exo-terra together which is much larger, although not as well planted yet. The temps and humidity in it are fine. I do dust pretty much every feeding, including the one in the video. I switch back and forth between herptevite and rep-cal, neither are expired, I checked the dates last night. The video shows the male grab a fly or two right at the beginning before exhibiting this problem, and the end 20 seconds is the female who has not shown any problems feeding.

It also is an on again off again problem, if you do something that makes him stop attempting to feed for a second like open the tank, mist, or reach your hand toward him to spook him out of feeding, when he goes back to it, his mouth works again, for a minute, sometimes more. The time before this feeding, it didn't happen at all. I will try whatever anyone has suggested, but I think if it was a vitamin deficiency, both frogs would show some signs of the same problem as they have lived their whole lives in the same tanks together, but maybe I am wrong.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

That definately changes things a bit. I didn't know you have had the pair so long. I would definately seperate the two for a little while. I would honestly just give the little guy some peace and quiet in his own tank with his own food. I would also try combining the repcal and herptivite. I usually use a 1:1 mix. After the frog puts on some weight I would try placing them back together. 

I have heard that some tincs do fine for some people in a 10 gallon. I even tried the experiment with my pair of cobalts temporarlly. It didn't work well. They were originally in a 29 gallon and when I took them out and placed them in a planted 10 my fattest and best eating female stopped eating. My male also didn't really seem interested in food. They both seemed stressed to me. They quickly resumed normal feeding/daily habbits when placed back in the 29 gallon after I finished its reconstruction. 

Of course some frogs may not be compatible. It could be a number of issues from what I have read. You may even try finding it a new mate.

I hope he gets better!! That is one beautiful little frog!


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi

We had a 4 month old Citronella doing this, when we first got them. Only one in a group of four. The frog was not skinny at all. It was on the chubby side. I think it had something to do with the move. Stress related??? It stopped after about a week and all was fine. It managed to get enough flies to keep weight on and is doing very well now.

I would seperate it as well and set up a feeding station with some larva.

I wonder if the move from the 10 to the Exo, could have stessed him out. Lack of cover compared to your overgrown 10G???


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

I do think it has a lot to do with it. They were perfectly happy and healthy, just not breeding in the 10 and it was too tight for me to add any more huts or breeding sites, so I moved them to the exo to try and induce breeding. He called for the first couple hours but nothing since, and I noticed him getting skinny about 3 weeks ago... so I started paying closer attention when I noticed this. I just got done moving him back into the 10 by himself, we'll see how he does.

How does everyone feed larvae? like how do you get them out of the culture without pulling the whole culture apart to get to the bottom?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

place the culture in the dark.

Cover the culture top so that only a tiny bit of air can get in and this will make the larvae climb.

Harvest -shake or spoon larvae out onto a feeding station with a small banana slice on a petri dish or similar. Make sure it's more or less flat so the frog will have an easy time eating from it.

Larvae work well to put on weight but I would still try to get as many dusted FF in front of him as he will eat at a time.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WVFROGGER23 said:


> . I picked both up and had a look at them and they both had the same thing going on with their lower jaws. It seemed that their lower jaws were too short to connect to their upper. I'm guessing birth defect as these froglets were very young. You might want to take a look at it. Be careful, when they are malnurished due to not being able to catch food effectively they seizure easily when stressed. Mine eventually seizured and died in their tanks. I ended up with one beautiful yellowhead out of the deal instead of three. Good luck! I hope everything turns out ok with the little cobalt!


In the literature, one of the manifestations of disruptions of calcium metabolism is deformation of the bones around the mouth. This is because the problems with the calcium metabolism result in poor calcification of the bones, causing them to be unable to withstand the pressure put on them by the muscles controlling feeding, resulting in misalignment of the upper and lower jaw. In addition, the bones involved in controlling the tongue often end up deformed, further preventing the frogs from feeding successfully. 
The seizures are due to insufficient calcium to support movement of the muscles particularly when stimulated to rapid movement (such as an attempt to catch them up or working in thier enclosure). There are a number of potential causes of these problems with calcium including but not limited to; poor calcium to phosphorus ratio, improper ratio of A to D3 in the diet, and/or insufficient D3. If the frogs are feeding on inverts that are not dusted as a main source of food (such as a high population of invertebrates that have colonized the enclosure) and are not feeding on sufficient dusted insects (possibly due to stress, only emerging to feed once most of the supplement has been groomed off, or the supplement is not sticking well to the insect) then diet will cause these problems. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jknight said:


> Looks like a calcium deficiency , when PDF’s do not get the right amount of supplementation such as calcium their nervous system is greatly affected rendering them unable to eat. ( catch ff’s ) If this is left untreated seizure can occur, leading to death.
> I suggest you put calcium in a spray bottle and spray them with it to get some cal. In their system.. Hope its not to late.. Good luck


Simply increasing calcium will not resolve the problem if there is also insufficent D3 to allow them to metabolize the calcium. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

andyoconnor83 said:


> neither are expired, I checked the dates last night. The video shows the male grab a fly or two right at the beginning before exhibiting this problem, and the end 20 seconds is the female who has not shown any problems feeding.
> .


The expiration date while a good starting point, should be considered only when purchasing the supplement. Otherwise the clock starts to run once the container is opened particularly when the supplement is kept in an area where there can be significant humidity (such as the frog room or next to the fruit fly cultures). The supplements should not be kept longer than six months past opening the container or the expiration date which ever shorter... and if kept in a warmer humid area, shelf life can be even shorter.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

Ed said:


> In the literature, one of the manifestations of disruptions of calcium metabolism is deformation of the bones around the mouth. This is because the problems with the calcium metabolism result in poor calcification of the bones, causing them to be unable to withstand the pressure put on them by the muscles controlling feeding, resulting in misalignment of the upper and lower jaw. In addition, the bones involved in controlling the tongue often end up deformed, further preventing the frogs from feeding successfully.
> The seizures are due to insufficient calcium to support movement of the muscles particularly when stimulated to rapid movement (such as an attempt to catch them up or working in thier enclosure). There are a number of potential causes of these problems with calcium including but not limited to; poor calcium to phosphorus ratio, improper ratio of A to D3 in the diet, and/or insufficient D3. If the frogs are feeding on inverts that are not dusted as a main source of food (such as a high population of invertebrates that have colonized the enclosure) and are not feeding on sufficient dusted insects (possibly due to stress, only emerging to feed once most of the supplement has been groomed off, or the supplement is not sticking well to the insect) then diet will cause these problems.
> 
> Ed


I should have probably consulted with the breeder whom I bought the frogs from then. I received the frogs that way. I have purchased so many great frogs off of them that I didn't want to think it was because the froglets were malnurished. Thanks for the input Ed!


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

andyoconnor83 said:


> O The video shows the male grab a fly or two right at the beginning before exhibiting this problem, and the end 20 seconds is the female who has not shown any problems feeding.


If that is the female without feeding problems at the end of the clip, I would say that you may have a larger issue than just a feeding problem with the male. Both frogs appear emaciated and in very poor condition.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WVFROGGER23 said:


> I should have probably consulted with the breeder whom I bought the frogs from then. I received the frogs that way. I have purchased so many great frogs off of them that I didn't want to think it was because the froglets were malnurished. Thanks for the input Ed!


It may not have been the breeder's fault. If they were group reared and were the shyer frogs, they may not have fed while the food items were sufficiently dusted. If you are packing up a group of frogs and they all basically look chunky and okay, unless you pick up and closely handle/examine each frog this is an easy thing to miss. 

Ed


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> Hi
> 
> We had a 4 month old Citronella doing this, when we first got them. Only one in a group of four. The frog was not skinny at all. It was on the chubby side. I think it had something to do with the move. Stress related??? It stopped after about a week and all was fine. It managed to get enough flies to keep weight on and is doing very well now.


Can this correct itself, in as little a week or so? It seemed to. 

We got the Cits from a friend. He dustes with Rep-Cal Vittamins and Rep-Cal Calcium with D3. We use those suppliments + Pure calcium, Repashy ICB and Repashy Superpig. 

I just don't see how a week of different suppliments could make that much of a difference? Is it possible?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

There's a TON of uncharted territory with regards to husbandry, nutrition- as well as amphibian medicine.

It may be that the increased food intake was more responsible for the correction.....



I've seen a lot of weird, odd and improbable things with these animals.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

get some termites and see if they eat those. At least then if they manage to eat one and miss 10 theres a lot more nutrition in 1 termite. A lot more fat too. Hopefully they do better. Have you got fecals back? I have metronidazole and panacur and am close to you if you need some


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

I haven't done fecals yet. How fresh do they need to be and do you know anyone local that can help with that?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...33-collecting-sending-fecals-examination.html


The Fecal should be fresh.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> get some termites and see if they eat those. At least then if they manage to eat one and miss 10 theres a lot more nutrition in 1 termite. A lot more fat too. Hopefully they do better. Have you got fecals back? I have metronidazole and panacur and am close to you if you need some


Do you have an analysis on which this is based? 

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Andy,

You can listen to everyones advice, but it is now Wed night and my bet is that guy will not make it much longer. Find a vet ..so even if he does not make it, you will have done your best. It seems to me WA is full of frog people so you might try googling for a Assoc. of Rep tile and Amphibian Vets., or contact a breeder more experienced or contact Dr. Frye as he can treat via email or phone. 

In the meanwhile you can put him in a kiss container or a sterilite shoe box. Damp paper towels, a shallow water dish, a paper cup for a hide or some fresh leaf litter or pothos. Put a water cap with a piece of bannana feed some ff, you can really monitor exactly how much he eats andi you can really monitor how much he poops. Then you can also collect that poop for the fecal. keep it warm - over 75 and change out the feeding station everyday ..it gets pretty ripe, and change the water as well.

There is such a thing as force feeding and cal gluc and... and .. and..I just think you may be wasting time here. Also many people do not pick up on that "once open, supplements last only 6 months " ..hopefully more will learn.

I wish you the best of luck
Sally


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

yeah I haven't been just sitting and reading and not doing anything. he is separated, although not in a sterilite with paper towels, back into the old 10 viv he used to live in. I can set up a sterile tank tomorrow. He ate a lot today without any issues.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I am glad to hear he is eating well. The reason I posted (despite the fact that I am not am an uber frog person) is that I see that you really care about your frogs.
Again, hope all turns out well.
Sally


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

yeah, if they would breed for me that'd be cool but all of my reptiles and amphibs are pets, all have names and stuff. I am much more serious about field herpetology, but I try my best to never neglect my pets. I know they probably aren't breeding due to something I'm not doing right, but for the most part they are all healthy. These two probably have some sort of parasite because they have never lost appetite, and other than his little tongue issue recently, they haven't had any problems eating and I have rarely missed feedings. My auratus and vents are healthy and plump. thanks for the concern, and thanks everyone else for your help. I am going to contact the local reptile vet, set up a schedule for fecals, and work on that and I will post updates here.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> There's a TON of uncharted territory with regards to husbandry, nutrition- as well as amphibian medicine.
> 
> It may be that the increased food intake was more responsible for the correction.....
> 
> ...



Hit the nail on the head!


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

Curious as to an update. Hope everything is well.


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

I will post pictures of both animals within 24 hours. he hasn't shown the tongue issue during feedings the whole time he's been seperated, and both animals have put on wait with more frequent and heavier than usual feedings, but he's still slimmer than he should be. I still haven't done a fecal, I had a death in the immediate family a week ago so anyone that has something negative to say about me putting this off, please do me a favor and hold those opinions to yourself. Everyone on this thread has been helpful and the frogs are still alive, and the female is looking really healthy, the male's not bad, just not top notch.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

thats awesome they are getting fatter! I still hve panacur and metronidazole if you get fecals done and dont want to wait for shipping to begin treating.


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Really sorry for your loss bud, chin up.

However that is great news about the frog, Its weird that all you had to do was separate him and his mouth can function properly again...

Hmm...

Keep us all posted.

Richie


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Test for chytrid---it's not expensive and John of Pisces Molecular will do it for you and help you figure out how.


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