# Clay fail



## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

Well woke up this morning to one of my 18x24 clay backgrounds on the floor.

I had a ledge that was made of clay that just fell after 2months of being up

I misted 1 time a day for 20seconds using mistking

I look at other people clay backgrounds and they look dry to touch mine turned to mush

Used red art bent and calc bent all powdered with sphagnum and peat moss


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Damn, thats why I'm scared of clay......


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

What percentage of organics did you use?


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

Yea I had no time to get things right before work

I have a breedi.g trio of rdyll I know two are alive hope the third didnt get crushed.

Also probably lost tads as the two broms that fell had eggs which I removed and I thought it had tads as well so that sucks have to wait and see


Now I gotta resculpt the whole back and im worried about more clay now.

Probably will take frogs out for couple days if I can catch them to redo the ledge with great stuff then just coat the greatstuff with clay

Just sucks becuase now I will have to wait days or weeks to get fumes out....

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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

80% red art
15% calc bent
The rest peat and sphag

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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

GS what ever fell. You dont want it to happen again.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I use clay as a substrate - you're describing one of many reasons I do not use it as a background.

s


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

Well looks like great stuff is going in now....


Im really worried lol cant stop thinking about my male rydll found both females hope he didnt get crushed

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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Scott said:


> I use clay as a substrate - you're describing one of many reasons I do not use it as a background.
> 
> s


I have also moved back towards cork bark backgrounds. I don't think I have the patience Ed talks about in establishing a bio film. I still love my clay substrates.


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

Well that sucks. Any advice on fastest way to get my tank back up?

Sould I just gorilla glue cork bark back their put a little bit clay?


Want to use great stuff but then due to fumes my tank will be down for a while. Sucks for my frogs

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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I silicone my cork bark up and then, after it's dry, I stuff the cracks with sphagnum moss. Of course you still have to wait for fumes to clear. I use GE silicone 1.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

DO you have a spear tank in the mean time?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Temporary viv.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63743-temporary-frog-storage-home.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> I have also moved back towards cork bark backgrounds. I don't think I have the patience Ed talks about in establishing a bio film. I still love my clay substrates.


Using clay as a ledge and subjecting it to stresses fairly early in the process is a good source of possible failure.. It takes a long time (at least 3-5 months) of patient work to get a clay background to work in the long haul and a ledge is something that I would take much longer before I was sure it was established. I just started taking down the one I set up all of those years ago as I think I've learned all I can from it. 

Instead of stuffing the cracks with sphagnum which is going to loosen and break down over time, I've had good luck filling them with clay. Partially fill a decent sized ziplock bag, squeeze out all of the extra air, seal the bag and cut out one of the bottom corners. This works like a icing bag so you can pipe the clay into the crack and then stuff it with sphagnum. That way if the sphagnum comes loose the frogs still can't get behind the cork. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Using clay as a ledge and subjecting it to stresses fairly early in the process is a good source of possible failure.. It takes a long time (at least 3-5 months) of patient work to get a clay background to work in the long haul and a ledge is something that I would take much longer before I was sure it was established. I just started taking down the one I set up all of those years ago as I think I've learned all I can from it.
> 
> Instead of stuffing the cracks with sphagnum which is going to loosen and break down over time, I've had good luck filling them with clay. Partially fill a decent sized ziplock bag, squeeze out all of the extra air, seal the bag and cut out one of the bottom corners. This works like a icing bag so you can pipe the clay into the crack and then stuff it with sphagnum. That way if the sphagnum comes loose the frogs still can't get behind the cork.
> 
> Ed


Hey Ed, you remember I built my first clay walls out of pure sodium bentonite and lots of organics....It seemed like a good idea at the time!


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## InnoEcto (Jun 28, 2009)

Our 1st clay background is still holding up really well, after about a year. We haven't had the patience to do any other backgrounds strictly out of clay, and use it more as an adhesive/crack filler in conjunction with cork. We have a few tanks set up with varrying percentages of the background consisting of clay. We used very little sphagnum or peat moss, and are still working through the bags of special kitty that we bought. We never got the fine powdered clay mixes. Maybe the strength is from the large ammounts of undissolved clay particles left in the mix, regardless of how long we soak the litter. The original background was shaped, and then allowed to dry for a couple days, before proceeding with the build. 

I hope all turns out ok, for you and you are able to find all your frogs.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

In my experience, the kroger and walmart brand kitty litters hold up better than a red art and bentonite mixtures. They even seem to film up faster. However I do have one that is 100% bentonite and it is fine. The red art mixture seemed to keep absorbing water until it slid off the glass.


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## oldkid (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm thinking of using GS to sculpt ledges that will hopefully hold the clay in place. Has anyone else tried this?
I'm also wanting to add a ledge in my viv, but plan on using GS and drift wood to help hold it up, and in place. I hope you find all the frogs and they are not too stressed over all this.


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## lapidsilver (Sep 23, 2009)

I had the Walmart brand up for almost a year until 25% came tumbling down. I moved recently so I redid all of the tanks with Cork and GS. I enjoyed being able to put brom's everywhere without having to drill into the gs or cork, but the danger of an avalanche called for a complete over haul.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Many of the fails I've seen discussed using clay as a background are in no small part due to a lack of letting it fully stabilize before putting weight and stress on it. In the tank I just took down I spent literally months stabilizing it before I stressed it with weight. 

I've used red art and bentonite mixtures and they have been extremely stable but as I've noted above and elsewhere, months went into stabilizing the clay. 

I'm with Doug, I'm not giving up clay substrates.... 

Ed


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

Well it was up for two months. Yea I agree the red art just swells woth water. Ill try just the plain bent see how that goes

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually red art doesn't swell with water. Sodium bentonite and some of the ion exchanged bentonites swell with water. That is why it is used in clumping kitty litter. 

Ed


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

So then basically if you want to use.clay then build your tank and dont use it for 6+months if you want it to be stable

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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

The top right is what failed/dropped

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

NickJR said:


> So then basically if you want to use.clay then build your tank and dont use it for 6+months if you want it to be stable
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


Not necessarily.. if you want to use clay, use some common sense and not set up structures that are unsupported by anything that is going to hold it up. 

It also helps if you look at the physical properties of the materials you are trying to use and understand them. 

Six plus months is a plain exaggeration... it can happen with much less, the instructions are in the ultimate clay thread and I've repeatedly posted that time is required to stabilize the clay since it lacks structure to support weight until the microbial action gets going to create the structure. 
Also I've noticed a trend to not let the clay set before planting it up. The picture I'm uploading is a clay wall that has water physically running down the surface of the clay and was set up for years with all kinds of stressors done to it up to and including let it dry out for six months before I turned the water back on to see what would happen. This clay wall was established in less than 3 months and held up for literally years.


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Ed said:


> Not necessarily.. if you want to use clay, use some common sense and not set up structures that are unsupported by anything that is going to hold it up.
> 
> It also helps if you look at the physical properties of the materials you are trying to use and understand them.
> 
> ...


Thats impressive. Did you just stick rocks into the clay? Sorry about your tank man, I tried to do one once.... It was an epic fail...


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

i know it was exagerration im just seeing now that clay = long long term work

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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

oldkid said:


> I'm thinking of using GS to sculpt ledges that will hopefully hold the clay in place. Has anyone else tried this?
> I'm also wanting to add a ledge in my viv, but plan on using GS and drift wood to help hold it up, and in place. I hope you find all the frogs and they are not too stressed over all this.




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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey Ed, isn't it important to not get carried away with misting for a couple months? Turn off the mister and just spot mist by hand? I think that was my biggest problem. I have the patience (patients) of a doctor being sued for malpractice!


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Off topic, but what kind of brom is that with the long leafs?

Back on topic....
Japan mud slide - YouTube


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Hey Ed, isn't it important to not get carried away with misting for a couple months? Turn off the mister and just spot mist by hand? I think that was my biggest problem. I have the patience (patients) of a doctor being sued for malpractice!


Thanks for reminding me Doug, yes if the clay becomes too wet before it gets well established it does become unstable and can fail. Once it is too wet it is very hard to get the structure to form as the clay tends to slide past one another. I set up the structure and then let the clay set for at least 24 hours before I turn the tank upright or do anything else to it. After that I only misted it every few days as clay holds moisture well until the biofilm and the mosses and ferns became established. Once the mosses and ferns started to grow, I was able to increase the flow rate of the drip wall until it was that in the picture where an actual sheet of water flowed over the wall and it didnt destabilize or collapse. 

If you really wanted to make a structure that lets you carve it and will hold structure then clay that hasn't been dried and powdered is going to be the answer if you need to happen quickly but even then too much of an overhang/wetting may still destabilize it. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ExoticPocket said:


> Thats impressive. Did you just stick rocks into the clay? Sorry about your tank man, I tried to do one once.... It was an epic fail...


No the rocks are mounted to the glass with silicone. The tank was originally designed for A. spumarius and the stones were for calling perches but then I lost the female and instead went on to stress test the tank to see what would happen if I began messing with parameters. At one point I had a two foot treefern growing in it. It shaded out virtually everything else in the tank. The biggest problem was with the moss clogging the drip bar. The moss grew so aggressively it would overgrow the holes in the drip bar preventing the water from passing through it. I just started taking it down after being up and running for a number of years and surviving various parameter changes. 

Ed


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

I think clay failures are more about how you build it and how it's set up. Clay isn't all bad I have a clay tank with a ledge that's been set up for 6+ months and hasn't failed. GS has just as many failures of pulling off the glass


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

Agree, probably was just impatiant here are updated pics not 100% how i want it but cannot capture occupants so here it goes 

Also does any one know why tapatalk loads all my pics sideways?












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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

NickJR said:


> Agree, probably was just impatiant here are updated pics not 100% how i want it but cannot capture occupants so here it goes
> 
> Also does any one know why tapatalk loads all my pics sideways?
> 
> ...


because of how you hold your phone the wrong way when you take the pic even if you rotate them when you upload it turns the pics back to their original position.
what you have to do is crop them after you rotate and it should create an entire different pic.
Android phones are smart but not perfect
I see you are using the Epic 4G....I figured they should have fixed that bug by now.
I go through the full site in my browser so I can get the full experience and I use photobucket to get the image codes.
it might be a lot harder for you tho since I have the G2 with the keyboard and I just hit alt b for browser and alt a for photobucket and I can switch right back and forth pretty fast grabbing codes and pasting. 
but you can just use the photobucket site and switch between browser windows instead of the aps themselves like I do


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

I use the samsung galaxy s2.

Tried editting and everything still posts them sideways lol

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## jlb (Oct 15, 2006)

My clay background has been up and running for a year or so. Going to start on my next tank this weekend, 55 gal.


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## kickedinthevader (Jan 30, 2011)

NickJR said:


> I use the samsung galaxy s2.
> 
> Tried editting and everything still posts them sideways lol
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


I'm on the s2 also. Just download the photobucket app. Its what I use and I never have any picture issues. Plus it saves the forums from having to host the picture.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

NickJR said:


> I use the samsung galaxy s2.
> 
> Tried editting and everything still posts them sideways lol
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


yeah it's also called the Epic 4G on other networks...I think Sprint.

I think it might just be tapatalk then.
use the IMG coding from photobucket


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

My clay background is 75 to 25 redart bentonite with a couple handfuls of peat per softball size pieces mine is held up for about 7 8 monthes and I only replaced a section the rest is held together by my billions of vines the clay is moist enough though that you can put your finger in it with ease that bothers me though. My other tank is mainly redart and thats holding up nicely


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi Nick - sorry to hear about your background - did you ever find the third Rodyll?

I was wondering if you used any kind of support for the background or applied the clay directly to the glass?

I have been using a thin sheet of EpiWeb siliconed onto the back of the tank then applying a 3/4" - 1" layer of clay over top. I know of someone else who is using eggcrate and applying the clay over that.


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

afterdark said:


> Hi Nick - sorry to hear about your background - did you ever find the third Rodyll?
> 
> I was wondering if you used any kind of support for the background or applied the clay directly to the glass?
> 
> I have been using a thin sheet of EpiWeb siliconed onto the back of the tank then applying a 3/4" - 1" layer of clay over top. I know of someone else who is using eggcrate and applying the clay over that.


I have done this with a plant grow out tank and it works nicely I have also found that broms stay anchered better as well


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

NickJR said:


> 80% red art
> 15% calc bent
> The rest peat and sphag
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


Well there's your problem.....


The redart should be ~60% or less, or it will get mushy every time it gets wet. I ran out of bentonite recently and tried to make a BG with just redart & a little peat/calcium carbonate, I stopped halfway through because it just wasn't going to work.... way too mushy with no structure, it was literally like soft mud.

I PMed you my recipe a few weeks ago when you asked, but here it is for those interested... I based it on Doug's substrate recipe. 

-3 quarts RedArt
-1 quart bentonite
-1 quart peat or coco (I use eco earth)
-1 cup calcium carb

I have clay BG's on 90% of my tanks, they are all doing just fine, and most are supporting large broms with no signs of giving way. I swear by my recipe and doubt I'll ever do another GS background.... far cheaper, far easier, and far less time consuming, plus additional calcium for the frogs. Plus, if you slap some dry peat on top of the clay, it can look just as good as most GS backgrounds, without all the fuss. 

1/3 of this BG is GS, the other 2/3's clay, and looking at it in person I wouldn't be able to tell them apart if I hadn't put it together myself. The film pots on the left and right sides are held in by clay, not GS.... it can support itself fairly well if you do it right.


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## sethshaun (Jun 13, 2009)

Tank looks nice! I was going to try a clay background. I wanted to make it very thick on the bottom and taper it up to one inch at the top so it would support itself and not be so dependent on sticking to the glass. I didn't try it because Ed mentioned that clay thicker than one inch could possibly get stinky over time due to anaerobic conditions, if I understood it correctly. So I chickened out. 


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

I still plan in trying ur recipe didnt use it yet because the tank was done.

Btw that is the exact issue im having its like mud when it gets wet






tclipse said:


> Well there's your problem.....
> 
> 
> The redart should be ~60% or less, or it will get mushy every time it gets wet. I ran out of bentonite recently and tried to make a BG with just redart & a little peat/calcium carbonate, I stopped halfway through because it just wasn't going to work.... way too mushy with no structure, it was literally like soft mud.
> ...




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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

NickJR said:


> I still plan in trying ur recipe didnt use it yet because the tank was done.
> 
> Btw that is the exact issue im having its like mud when it gets wet
> 
> ...


Gotcha, yea if you have some supplies left over, try the one I sent you... huge difference in texture & much stronger, it should be able to support big broms easily without falling out (if the stolon is long enough)... even small pieces of wood if it has enough contact area with the clay & the layer is thick enough. If you're sticking broms into it, make sure only the stolon/stem is touching clay and the leaves are not, if the base of the leaves are in the clay & you mist a lot they will probably get too moist and rot.


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