# pumilio enclosures



## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I just figured I would split this off of another post and talk more in detail about it. To some of the new people who dont know much about pumilio this is for you. What does everyone feel is the proper size and setup per pumilio in the hobby?


I personally like to give my pums lots of space. I dont use a rule like x amount of frogs per gallon. I have great success with putting pairs into 18 cube exo terras. I dont know what that comes out to gallon wise, probably somewhere around 20 or so. This is the size I prefer and am not saying it is the ideal size.
Jason


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I'm planning on starting out with 15 gallon verts - 12" x 12" x 24" - for a pair or trio. I'm going to go with two large broms for the pums to lay eggs and raise tads in, one in the bottom half of the viv and one in the upper half of the viv, and then fill in around those with smaller broms and or plants for additional cover. The vivs are being constructed with a 1 1/2" computer fan in the top of the viv directly above the front door to circulate some air and to keep the front door clear. Should be completed within the week.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

This is a tough question because I think ideal for most people would be the smallest viv they can successfully breed the frogs in. Obviously pumilio have been successfully bred in 20 gal. and even 10 gal. tanks but I don't consider that idea. I consider it lucky. My preference would be to house them in pairs in minimum sized vivs of 24" cubes.

There are two spatial dimensions I think are important. The first is floor surface area because that's what determines how much leaf litter and soil fauna the viv can support. Which, in turn, determines whether froglets can be left in the breeding viv to rear themselves, or have to be taken out. I've found that leaving them in works best for me. The second dimension is vertical height. At least with my blue jeans, both the adults and froglets tend to move up and down throught he vertical profile through the day. They tend to sleep and mate up high and forage down low. The height also allows for a nice temperature gradient which lets the frogs choose their own ideal conditions. This may be most important for tad deposition sites but temperature also seems to strongly influence breeding activity (as it does with most pdf).

So for me, the ideal size is actually 36"W x 24" D x 36" H but I think a 24" cube is a pretty decent compromise. But even in the larger viv, they have worked better as pairs than as groups for me. Remember that even a 3 ft. cube is still smaller than an average pumilio territory so competition can be intense if groups are forced to live within the same territory all the time.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

I'm on the same line of thought as Brent. i know i have said this on numerous occasions recently but... size matters!

When i built my pumilio viv, the frogs were still sub adult and the sexing game still left room for error. believing i had possibly two males, i built the viv around this.

i read as much as i could from studies in the wild of male territory size and defense of territory. when i built the viv i made sure all the wood.. cliffs, plants etc had at least three calling points at equal heights around the viv. i made the floor area almost like a root system/labrynth in areas so any male aggression and the weaker could retreat and lick his wounds in safety, also i incorperated physical barriers, which now over grown gives three individual areas within the tank.

as it turned out i had a 1:2 ratio but it could have easily gone the other way. 

in the wild each male has been recorded to average 6-8 sq ft of ground territory which he will defend vigorously as quite literally his life depends on it. realistically we cannot recreate this in captivity, unless we have a very big house and lots of money (i know my wife would never agree to such a hairbrain idea) but we can be careful with selection of ratio's and how our tanks are built to accomodate this.

regards

steve


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I like Brent's thinking. Once settled in my new place I will be moving my pair of pumilio to a 24" cube.


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## GSXR_MURRHEE (Sep 16, 2006)

I have a man creek trio in a 29 gal right now, but am planning on pulling one of my females out due to increased fighting and egg eating over time. I've been thinking about making them some new homes in either 20 or 29 gal verts, but with just one or two frogs in each. I think if well planted those two would be fine. But as always, bigger is better.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Steve said:


> as it turned out i had a 1:2 ratio but it could have easily gone the other way.


I had 1.2 blue jeans in my monster 105 gal. setup (36"Wx36"Hx18"D) for several years and was getting a slow, but steady, trickle of froglets so figured everything was fine. Then on of the females died and the rate of froglet production went up about 3-4 fold. That opened my eyes to the difference keeping them in pairs can make. Of course it has to be a compatible pair which opens a whole other can of worms.

Edit: I should also add that when I first built this viv in 1999, I naively thought it was so large I should be able to keep 6 adults in it. Boy was that a mistake. I've learned a lot over the years by trial and mostly error.


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

First , most of you have more expeirence than I do here ... but if your looking to breed them I think that how the tank is set up and planted and that the frogs are compatable has more to do with it than size . Lots of broms , all the way to the top of the viv, hiding places , leaf litter , places to call from .
Sure bigger should be better for them , but if they don't like the way the viv is setup or if your pair dosen't get along they will not be happy and breed. 
I have pums in a 24x24x36"- 90 gal , in 20H verts and a couple in custom 10Vert's . The ones that have bred succesfully for me were in the 20H & 10H . I haven't seen any froglets from the "supposed proven trio" in the 90 gal. yet and its been set up the longest . 
I even found a froglet in the 10 gal that I didn't know was there for over 2 months . Nice , fat and healthy and this tank has the smallest bottom space of the three .
I was thinking of redoing one of the 90's due to a bad scale problem . Maybe when I do I might put one of the proven pairs in it and see what happens . See wheather they do better in the larger viv .


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Maybe we should also try to focus on a variety of different tad deposition sites other than broms? Maybe white and black film cannisters and possibly some folded up leaf litter? Basically anything that can hold a decent amount of water. I don't have any experience, but just throwing this idea out there since it hasn't been covered much?


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

From my experience pumilio will lay eggs on leaves or leaf litter. From the point where the tads are ready to be deposited most of the time they are deposited in broms. Film containers are usually a last resort spot from what I have noticed. I still cram in a bunch of containers but they are hardly ever used.
Jason


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## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

I talked with Rich from BJ at length about this after seeing their pumilio vivs. They use small cups to rear their tads, but the only way they get the frogs to deposit the tads in there is to have absolutely no broms or other deposition sites around. It seems the cups are their last resort so to speak.

Ryan


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

pigface said:


> I have pums in a 24x24x36"- 90 gal , in 20H verts and a couple in custom 10Vert's . The ones that have bred succesfully for me were in the 20H & 10H . I haven't seen any froglets from the "supposed proven trio" in the 90 gal. yet and its been set up the longest .


This could have more to do with the fact you have a trio instead of a pair rather than tank size. See my post above. I had a "proven" trio that was producing maybe 2 froglets in a year - some years none. Then when one of the females died, the production went to close to an average of a froglet every month. One of the problems we have is that the way we do trial and error has many confounding effects so it is difficult to tease out exactly which factors contribute to success or failure.

But I will restate that floor space is directly proportional to whether froglets can be reared on soil fauna inside the breeding viv. There are some ecological principles regarding trophic levels and predation that come into play. But in my experience, have enough space to support a thriving soil fauna dramatically increased the survivorship of froglets.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

verbal said:


> I talked with Rich from BJ at length about this after seeing their pumilio vivs. They use small cups to rear their tads, but the only way they get the frogs to deposit the tads in there is to have absolutely no broms or other deposition sites around. It seems the cups are their last resort so to speak.
> 
> Ryan


There is a well known frogger who has a number of morphs of pumilio breeding in small tanks using small plastic solo cups placed on the bottom of the viv as deposition sites. You can walk by the tanks and see tadpoles of bastimentos, greens, blues, etc. But the method has not worked well with blue jeans and probably wouldn't work for a few other morphs as well. That's why you have to be careful about generalizing about pumilio. The species covers a large geographic area with different populations adapted to different conditions. It seems that for some morphs enough is known that adequate conditions can be provided in smaller vivaria while with others, we still don't fully know which is where larger vivaria can be extremely helpful.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

I would also like to comment on this, as this is a great topic, and people are hitting on points I agree with. My own experience has been with large tanks as well. When I visted Brian Kubicki he also commented that size matters. He uses large and tall enclosures with lots of broms.
Example.










I also want to agree with Brent's 1.1 ratio. A friend of mine is cranking out basti's with a pair.


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## tyler (Feb 23, 2006)

I currently have a 65 gallon that is setup for a pair of Cayos that I should be getting real soon. I have a load of leaf litter and some good water holding broms. I'm also going to be putting a coco-hut upside down in the leaf litter, that way it can hold some water. 
36L x 18W x 24H.


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## 955i (Mar 23, 2006)

All of my pumilio are in 18"x18"x24" Exo Terras. I use broms for deposition sites and although I have film cases that can be used, I have only known of 1 tad that has been put in one.

Most eggs seem to be laid in horizontal white film cases although some have laid eggs on leaves on occasion.

With these set ups, I have successfully bred Isla Colon (1.3 group), Cayo de Agua (1.1 pair), Darklands (1.2 trio) and Esperanza (1.1 pair) morphs. Although not fertile, I have also had eggs off Chiriqui and Rio Branco, so from my point of view this seems to be an acceptable sized viv for breeding fom the pummies perspective


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I was asked to post some pictures of my blue jeans viv so here are a couple of not so great snapshots 



















Another observation about the value of size has come up. I came home from IAD to find at least 3 new froglets in the viv (can't get an exact count). Even with 4.5 sq. ft. of floor space in the viv, this number of froglets has done a number on the normally abundant soil fauna so I've been supplementing with springtails and meadow plankton to compensate. With only one or two froglets, I normally don't have to supplement. Luckily the smallest of the froglets seems to be over the fruitfly threshold size so hopefully I'm over the hump. It just goes to show, no matter how large the viv, I'll always wish for larger.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Hey Brent, 

My e-mail update stopped working again so i didn't catch the post of your BJ viv photo's and i know i asked you for some a while back.

That is a very nice viv, i love the overgrown-ness about it and its sheer size.

Very very nice and thanks for putting photo's up.

Regards

Steve


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

After moving some frogs around recently one thing I've just noticed . I know some people here keep their pumilio in horizontaly oriented vivariums and they do fine . I had some of my Escudo in one untill recently ( because thats what I had built at the time ). but they never "looked" comfortable in it though .
I don't know how they acted when I was not around but if they saw alot of movement or if you looked in the tank too fast they would all scurry to the higest spot in the tank and just hide behind a leaf and stay there like they were frozen . 
They are all chubby and healthy looking, and they even laid a few clutches of eggs in there but didn't seem to care for them , I don't know if that is related or not . 
But I have since moved them into a 20H vert. and they seem like completly different frogs , not jumpy like in the other tank . I don't know how to explain it but they just look happier , more comfortable in the vert even if it is only 6" taller . This is just an observation though . But even though they do well in the horizontal they will probably do better in the verticly oriented viv .


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

I finally got that 42 gallon upright tank done this past week for my Man Creeks.
As much as I like it, it was pure hell to work on. I am a short person and my arm length was not enough to reach into this viv to work on it. I had to stand on a chair and when I reached inside, I almost fell in. 










The frogs will go in next week.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Another pic I forgot.......


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## tyler (Feb 23, 2006)

Looks nice... you may want to add some leaf litter for some coverage and areas for isopods to produce.

I'm thinking of possibly making another 65 for my future pair of bastis if I'm not completely satisfied with how they are doing based on observation. Although their current viv is heavy with leaf litter and springs, I feel that bigger is ALWAYS better. Who knows, maybe someday I'll have 3 65s with all pumies.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

> Looks nice... you may want to add some leaf litter for some coverage and areas for isopods to produce.


Thanks for reminding me Tyler.
That will go into the tank today


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