# Leucs fighting or courting...a love-hate relationship :)



## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

WWF in the leuc tank!

http://youtu.be/1KExRyNYSYU

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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Fighting. Stress and death to follow.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

I posted this more as an interesting video, because these 2 have done this off and on for almost 2 years. I am not sure why this happens. There is a 2.1 proven group in here and it is always this male wrestling with the female...not all that often, but always the same male. They trade off positions on top while the other male calls...strange!


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## sideshowbob (May 18, 2014)

Aaron, Mine have done this for 5 years. It usually is very short and not very "brutal" I have placed a few Azureus together (in a separate viv of course) and I thought world war 3 broke out, and had to immediately separate them. For me if they are healthy and not always hiding and have a good weight (which shows signs of good eating) then I just carefully watch them.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks Bob...glad to know I'm not alone here. Yeah, this seems to happen once in a great while for a very short time then they are back to being "friends" again. I have never witnessed any other signs of stress, and we always watch them all closely. What's interesting to me is that it is the breeding male and female. She is wrestling with the same male that she always courts...I have never seen her courting the other male. Seems strange to me.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Celtic Aaron said:


> I posted this more as an interesting video, because these 2 have done this off and on for almost 2 years. I am not sure why this happens. There is a 2.1 proven group in here and it is always this male wrestling with the female...not all that often, but always the same male. They trade off positions on top while the other male calls...strange!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I want to make a correction on my timeline. This particular group of leucs has been together for about 1 year.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Okay, so here is the question for the experienced froggers out there...given these circumstances, does the occasional battle royale concern you at all without any other signs of stress, isolation, etc? Why or why not? 


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Philsuma said:


> Fighting. Stress and death to follow.



Given the circumstances I described, would you recommend separating them?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Celtic Aaron said:


> Given the circumstances I described, would you recommend separating them?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd separate them.

Stress from combating is Hugely debilitating. You may 'get lucky' and your frog is tough and continues to try to thrive but it the end, whenever that may be, it will succumb from the stress.

Two analogies come to mind:

1. I CAN catch a baseball on my chin after throwing it up in the air about 20 feet. Can I 'get lucky' and not bust my nose or lip or teeth? Can I get lucky 10 times in a row?

2. My sister lives with a guy who chain smokes up to two packs a day on average. She has lived with him for going on 10 years now and she is still alive. Can she get lucky and live to 90 in the smoke filled house? Maybe but I tell her to move out all the time. I'm pretty sure she will get sick and die sooner than she thinks if she doesn't.

Dart frogs may not look like they are under a lot of stress and aggression ect, but in a small vivarium like what most of us keep frogs in....stress is hugely compounded.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Philsuma said:


> I'd separate them.
> 
> Stress from combating is Hugely debilitating. You may 'get lucky' and your frog is tough and continues to try to thrive but it the end, whenever that may be, it will succumb from the stress.
> 
> ...



I certainly can't disagree with that last part about the size of an enclosure. Although I have provided a large enough enclosure for this group (by our standards) with plenty of hides, it is still only a small glass box. Part of me wants to justify the aggression as the natural order of things as long as the frogs can deal with the situation (eating, weight, etc.) I mean, in nature there has to be aggression to set a hierarchy, yes? However, in nature, they are not in an 18x18x24 enclosure with nowhere else to go. Good discussion. 


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## sideshowbob (May 18, 2014)

Aaron, The group of 7 that I have are in a 90 gallon viv. 4'x2'x2'. Maybe the size of the viv can compound the problem. One thing I have noticed it is not always one frog showing "aggressive, or courtship behavior" I have noticed it changes from frog to frog and lasts only seconds, and it is not a constant thing, it is on a rare occasion. If I noticed that it was the same frog all the time then I would separate the "trouble maker" I can go months without seeing any of this behavior. I am not willing to take this as "lucky".


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

sideshowbob said:


> Aaron, The group of 7 that I have are in a 90 gallon viv. 4'x2'x2'. Maybe the size of the viv can compound the problem. One thing I have noticed it is not always one frog showing "aggressive, or courtship behavior" I have noticed it changes from frog to frog and lasts only seconds, and it is not a constant thing, it is on a rare occasion. If I noticed that it was the same frog all the time then I would separate the "trouble maker" I can go months without seeing any of this behavior. I am not willing to take this as "lucky".


 With seven adult breeding age Leucs even in your size Vivarium which is still not 'large' by any means.... there has to be a lot of stress. 

If you only have one year with this enclosure, then that is a short time.

If you work full time or otherwise do not watch the animals most of the day, then you are missing a lot of active behavior. There is a lot of combating that you do not see.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Aaron we have had 5 leucs in a 2'cube for 41/2 years 3:2 group,breeding and all is well.But we see proper hard core spats every now and then. Mate I've really watched these frogs the aggression although hard is never sustained. If it was another frog I think i would have split them years back,but they really are fine. I am also regularly raising kids in this viv and they are doing,ie growing well without issue,i've just packed two off to a new home and they were only just off adult size,growth is what it should be. So basically I think you should watch and be ready to make a choice to pull as I believe frogs are individuals,it would be foolhardy to just say all will be well. But I suspect you won't need to.It's just a matter of looking hard and being sure no one is loosing weight or being constantly hounded.It's so important this observation and knowing what is going on in viv. Incidentally we bought a trio of azzie,turned out that it was 3 girls,similar to the above post,I split them incredibly quickly,so if needed I move very fast,it's just I don't feel any need to do that with the leucs. I have seen various levels off aggression in other vivs,I think Phil's words of caution are spot on,but the outcome is not always predictable. 

Spending time with the frogs is after all the reason we keep,look hard though mate when feeding or just spending quality time,honing these skills for me is everything. 

Also evaluate closely what happens when they are cycled up to breed,or cycled down for that matter ,both senarios can be a precursor to agression breaking out: Ha I have just ramped up five red head histrionicus to breed,they have been utterly fine while breeding was impossible for maybe a year and a half(I wanted them properly mature before breeding commenced). Bam in days males pulled and another two added and again one pulled.Oh and they really had to be pulled,there was no mistaking that,"Puzzle",dominant male was absolutely not going to tolerate any of those other frogs in his territory. The dynamic of that viv a model of peace and tranquility changed almost overnight with no introductions just some film cans and extra misting('erm downpour). Know your frogs,they will tell you what to do,is the mantra that works for me. I find this much more applicable than the blanket rules,that my frogs haven't been told about. Sure there is a skill set to acquire observation and evaluation but doing that is the fun bit 
good luck

Stu


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Philsuma said:


> If you only have one year with this enclosure, then that is a short time.
> 
> If you work full time or otherwise do not watch the animals most of the day, then you are missing a lot of active behavior. There is a lot of combating that you do not see.


Good points. With my size family, we certainly watch the animals a lot, but I cannot deny that regardless there may be a lot that we cannot see between work, school, activities, etc. We pay close attention to activity levels, eating, weight, health, aggression, etc. With that said, I didn't really think that any sign of aggression was considered bad unless that aggression was substantial enough to isolate one of the frogs, create submissive and unhealthy social behavior, create an unfair advantage to resources such as food, or create stress to the point that there is weight loss or illness. If there is the occasional aggressive behavior or wrestling, I thought that would not be unusual or harmful given all other factors were within normal. Not saying I was right, just my initial thoughts on the matter.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

For me, this is something I worry about. I don't know how frogs "feel" but in the wild, if there is aggression of this type, they can move away to avoid it. In all but the very largest of terrariums, this is not possible for our animals. Yes, obstructing views and multiple hides can minimize contact, but the fact remains that they are trapped in small confines with each other. It may be that the frogs have a strong enough drive to eat that they don't show indications of stress. They still have the weight we look for and they don't have visible wounds or that sort of thing. However, the stress could be really tough on them and they don't show it. I don't want my frogs to be in fear of their lives all of the time with no recourse. Sounds like you have a workable pair/group -would it be possible to pull one of the combatants into a different enclosure or sell them to someone else? Again, completely my opinion and I would not look down on anyone that doesn't follow it (I have no idea if I am right!), but I don't want to try to figure out what I can get away with in terms of my frogs' well being. I want them to thrive. 

Just another perspective, I guess.

Mark


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

stu&shaz said:


> Aaron we have had 5 leucs in a 2'cube for 41/2 years 3:2 group,breeding and all is well.But we see proper hard core spats every now and then. Mate I've really watched these frogs the aggression although hard is never sustained. If it was another frog I think i would have split them years back,but they really are fine. I am also regularly raising kids in this viv and they are doing,ie growing well without issue,i've just packed two off to a new home and they were only just off adult size,growth is what it should be. So basically I think you should watch and be ready to make a choice to pull as I believe frogs are individuals,it would be foolhardy to just say all will be well. But I suspect you won't need to.It's just a matter of looking hard and being sure no one is loosing weight or being constantly hounded.It's so important this observation and knowing what is going on in viv. Incidentally we bought a trio of azzie,turned out that it was 3 girls,similar to the above post,I split them incredibly quickly,so if needed I move very fast,it's just I don't feel any need to do that with the leucs. I have seen various levels off aggression in other vivs,I think Phil's words of caution are spot on,but the outcome is not always predictable.
> 
> Spending time with the frogs is after all the reason we keep,look hard though mate when feeding or just spending quality time,honing these skills for me is everything.
> 
> ...


Thank you Stu for sharing your experience and advice! I am constantly learning about these frogs. The more that I learn, it seems the more questions I have . Thanks again buddy!


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Always welcome and absolutely the more I know the more questions I have too! Aaaron. 4 odd years in and genuinely I feel I've only scratched the surface of what is there to be learnt. Constant appraisal and the ever present questions is a good place to be Aaron. This hobby isn't learnt quickly and in part that is what makes it so wonderful!!
belucky kiddo

Stu


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Encyclia said:


> For me, this is something I worry about. I don't know how frogs "feel" but in the wild, if there is aggression of this type, they can move away to avoid it. In all but the very largest of terrariums, this is not possible for our animals. Yes, obstructing views and multiple hides can minimize contact, but the fact remains that they are trapped in small confines with each other. It may be that the frogs have a strong enough drive to eat that they don't show indications of stress. They still have the weight we look for and they don't have visible wounds or that sort of thing. However, the stress could be really tough on them and they don't show it. I don't want my frogs to be in fear of their lives all of the time with no recourse. Sounds like you have a workable pair/group -would it be possible to pull one of the combatants into a different enclosure or sell them to someone else? Again, completely my opinion and I would not look down on anyone that doesn't follow it (I have no idea if I am right!), but I don't want to try to figure out what I can get away with in terms of my frogs' well being. I want them to thrive.
> 
> Just another perspective, I guess.
> 
> Mark


Thanks for your perspective Mark. I have absolutely no problems splitting them up if that is what is truly best for them. You make good points about wild behavior versus being trapped in a little glass box, and I can't agree more. 

What is perplexing to me is that this is a male and female wrestling. If I were witnessing female-female aggression like in tincs or male-male aggression like in pumilio, everything would make more sense to me. Because this is male-female aggression, it has me wondering, which is not altogether a bad thing as long as it brings up good learning discussion like this . Here is my struggle: Because I don't know how they "feel," it is hard to know how to take this type of very occasional (to the extent that I see it anyway) aggression. Is it a comfortable part of their dynamic in that glass box? Does that interaction help them to set a hierarchy and subsequent behaviors that is comfortable for them? Is it courting gone wrong? Is it harmless? Or, as Phil says, "stress and death to follow"? Without any of the other signs of stress that we talked about, I am skeptical, although you and Phil have made valid points about not really being able to see stress until maybe it is too late. Like you, I don't really know.

With all of that said, you are right about wanting what is best for our animals. I certainly do not want stressed animals or a bad environment for them. In the end, regardless of what else comes out of this discussion, I will do what is best for the frogs.

Again, I truly appreciate the feedback here.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

On stress...

Stress just may be the #1 killer of frogs in Captivity. Parasites and Disease gain footholds and cause mortality based on stress present in the animal. Overall health declines rapidly in proportion to stress.

Even a 'happily mated' pair of frogs will endure stress. Stress is part of everyday life for these animals. As long as they come in contact with each other = stress. Mating = Stress. Just because your pair of frogs is laying eggs, doesn't mean they are living a happy carefree existence. 

Although this genus of frogs is often found in high densities, this does not equate to being able to stuff them into 10 gallon sized enclosures. In situ, they have a myriad of places to flee, retreat and hide. Most people's vivariums, especially new hobbyists' are VERY BARE.

Let's just take an arbitrary number of possible hides, retreats and visual barriers available in their native environment....say, 12. 12 different options are quickly and easily available. How many can be replicated in a 10 gallon, which is actually more like a 7 gallon, when hardscaped...? Nowhere near 12. Probably nowhere near 6. Most likely 1 or 2.

On 'Combating':

Combating (wrestling in our hobby, as frogs do not have teeth and claws) is necessary for good reproductive health. As far as I am aware it is more of a reptilian reproductive issue than an amphibian. Male turtles combating come to mind. I think I read a paper that stated combating did not occur or NEED to occur in frogs for reproductive effectiveness. Ed or Roman could def chime in here on this issue.

My opinion? If you see 'wrasslin' once or twice , you can be sure it's happening @ ten times as much - that you don't see. It's not nessa for the frogs and is Always a stressor that needs to be addressed as per the individual keeper (owner) and his or her abilities and needs.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Philsuma said:


> On stress...
> 
> Stress just may be the #1 killer of frogs in Captivity. Parasites and Disease gain footholds and cause mortality based on stress present in the animal. Overall health declines rapidly in proportion to stress.


Agreed.



Philsuma said:


> Even a 'happily mated' pair of frogs will endure stress. Stress is part of everyday life for these animals. As long as they come in contact with each other = stress. Mating = Stress. Just because your pair of frogs is laying eggs, doesn't mean they are living a happy carefree existence.


I agree here for the most part. I think that it is pretty well established that having reproductive success does not necessarily equal otherwise healthy frogs. What I am not sure about is just how bad some of these factors that we are calling stressors are on frogs. I know that frogs can be seemingly content by themselves in captivity, but how do we know that keeping frogs isolated is any better than over-populating a tank? If frogs are somewhat social in situ, is it possible that isolating them in captivity is just as bad (given the proper conditions of course)?



Philsuma said:


> Although this genus of frogs is often found in high densities, this does not equate to being able to stuff them into 10 gallon sized enclosures. In situ, they have a myriad of places to flee, retreat and hide. Most people's vivariums, especially new hobbyists' are VERY BARE.
> 
> Let's just take an arbitrary number of possible hides, retreats and visual barriers available in their native environment....say, 12. 12 different options are quickly and easily available. How many can be replicated in a 10 gallon, which is actually more like a 7 gallon, when hardscaped...? Nowhere near 12. Probably nowhere near 6. Most likely 1 or 2.


For sure having a proper set up is important to the health and well-being of the animal(s). As a matter of fact, this may be one of the most important pieces for success in my opinion. Providing a set up for natural behaviors such as climbing, foraging, mating, and hiding is crucial.



Philsuma said:


> On 'Combating':
> 
> Combating (wrestling in our hobby, as frogs do not have teeth and claws) is necessary for good reproductive health. As far as I am aware it is more of a reptilian reproductive issue than an amphibian. Male turtles combating come to mind. I think I read a paper that stated combating did not occur or NEED to occur in frogs for reproductive effectiveness. Ed or Roman could def chime in here on this issue.


This is the stuff I would like to know more about. Having done a little research, I cannot find much on these behaviors on academic sites that I have access to; however, I did see a couple of posts a while back here on DB that refer to this specific behavior. Is what I am witnessing on a rare occasion 'normal' behaviors for a male-female group? Is it actually a result of bad stress or territorial behavior? I am not sure that I know what to make of it, but I am definitely skeptical to the idea that it is simple territorial behavior, given all of the other factors and behaviors that I witness.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66343-female-aggression-against-male.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/113897-aggressive-paru.html



Philsuma said:


> My opinion? If you see 'wrasslin' once or twice , you can be sure it's happening @ ten times as much - that you don't see. It's not nessa for the frogs and is Always a stressor that needs to be addressed as per the individual keeper (owner) and his or her abilities and needs.


I value your opinion Phil. I know that you have been in this hobby a long time and have a lot of great experience to share, and I appreciate your contribution to this discussion. I know that I am a fairly new frogger and have a lot to learn, but also have a lot of questions. As I get deeper into this hobby, my questions get a little more complex because of what I have learned. Two years ago, I would have accepted this behavior as simple territorial aggression and separated the frogs, but today I question that premise because of all I have learned from watching my frogs, speaking with other hobbyists, and reading what others have written (academic and otherwise). None of that is to say that I am completely wrong . But at the end of this discussion, hopefully I and many others will have a better understanding of this behavior and know how to handle it.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

So here is that very same pair right now. She is showing 'normal' courting behavior.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Sounds like you are just going to keep them together. They are your frogs after all.

Frogs are not social. Combating is stressful and should be avoided in the viv at all times.

Good luck.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Celtic Aaron said:


> So here is that very same pair right now. She is showing 'normal' courting behavior.


it could be that the 'third' frog is affecting the entire group dynamic. What I do in this situation is remove all frogs down to two and note behavior.

One of the worst things that silly wascher family ever did was to generate bad information on just how frogs were 'social'. They are not 'social' or communal. They bump into each other in the wild and then get the heck out of the way. They mate and then separate. They don't 'play fight'.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Philsuma said:


> it could be that the 'third' frog is affecting the entire group dynamic. What I do in this situation is remove all frogs down to two and note behavior.
> 
> One of the worst things that silly wascher family ever did was to generate bad information on just how frogs were 'social'. They are not 'social' or communal. They bump into each other in the wild and then get the heck out of the way. They mate and then separate. They don't 'play fight'.


I certainly don't buy into that rhetoric! I try not to personify frogs as though they have human emotion, feelings, needs, etc. I just considered the idea that what I saw was a part of breeding (albeit a seldom seen part). I certainly don't think frogs are anything like pack animals, but I figured there were some species that were somewhat group-oriented, while others are certainly not. I also thought that I read somewhere (I will have to hunt it down) that it was thought that some R. imitators were known to mate for life??? Maybe I remember that wrong, but for some reason that stuck in my head. Therefore, the part that I don't know is that if there are what I am calling 'group-oriented frogs', is it really only because of population density or do they actually stay together as a group? It sounds like you are saying that it is only due to population density and they tolerate each other better simply because of that? Maybe it is a function of prolific breeding such as E. anthonyi 'Santa Isabel' that they have to be able to tolerate each other because of the number of offspring they produce.

As for the group dynamic, that is a very interesting idea. Maybe that 2.1 group in the 30 gallon is adding a different dynamic that creates that behavior. I really like the suggestion of separating out one male and see if the behaviors change. The wrestling is so infrequent that I wouldn't expect to see it for a long while, but it would be worth noting for sure. Thanks!


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Celtic Aaron said:


> I also thought that I read somewhere (I will have to hunt it down) that it was thought that some R. imitators were known to mate for life??? Maybe I remember that wrong, but for some reason that stuck in my head.


AmphibiaWeb has a small discussion of this. I am not sure how reliable their information is...

AmphibiaWeb - Ranitomeya imitator


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## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

Celtic Aaron said:


> WWF in the leuc tank!
> 
> http://youtu.be/1KExRyNYSYU
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow. He should've gotten a double leg takedown and sunk the half in for the pin. He missed his oppurtunity.

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