# tadpole condition (orange banded guyanas)



## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

hi, my tadpoles are 4-5 days out of the egg. 5 are moving around energetically, the other one is not moving at all, i cant see him breath, if i flip him on is back, he flips himself over on is stomach (only way i know he is still alive). What is going on with him? should i be concerned? also, none of them eat yet, is that normal?


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## Teletom (Jun 24, 2019)

Personally I would not touch the tads. If you can see him breathing he is probably okay. They like to play dead in the beginning but will lose color if they have actually died.

Try to not disturb them too much and just let them do their thing.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Good advice!


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

thanks guys. i cant really see him breathing, but he does right himself up. ill leave him alone. I saw him pooing alot tho.. lol he might be the last one to come out of the egg, so he might be a bit behind the others.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

so i shouldn't worry?


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## Teletom (Jun 24, 2019)

I wouldn't worry, if there is an issue I unfortunately do not know if there is much you can actually do. Keep us updated


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

You should take a longer view. I am guessing by your questions that this is a new process for you. You should just enjoy it and not worry too much about the outcome of a specific tadpole at this early phase. Sometimes things happen. Hopefully this will just be the first of many clutches of eggs/tadpoles from your frogs and you will be able to enjoy the process repeatedly. Regardless of the outcome of this particular situation, there is very little that you can do to intervene. If the little fella doesn't make it, it was almost certainly not because of anything you did. If he doesn't make it, it's likely that he wasn't strong enough and would have been a weak froglet even if he did make it. If he makes it through this phase, he could go on to be a perfectly healthy frog someday. 

Hope that helps a little, anyway.

Mark


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

thanks. yes i am very new. i have 6 tads out of eggs, a 10 day old clutch of 6 eggs and a 2 day old clutch of 4 eggs. I am obsessed by the whole process and i don't want to lose any of them.... how often do tadpoles die before morphing out? if all the conditions are right, is this a common occurrence?


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

sorry if i seem overly concerned... i am like that.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Don't worry about being worried ;-) It's natural to be concerned. In my experience, the weak link in the process occurs at the egg stage. The further toward froglets you get in the process, the less attrition occurs. Once they are tadpoles it isn't very often that I lose them, but it still happens. It really is part of the hobby to lose some of the potential offspring at various phases. When frogs are new to breeding, it is very common for things not be optimal. There could be infertile clutches, low numbers of eggs, irregular timing between clutches, etc. Recently, I lost two tads from a first-season pair that were all the way to popping rear legs! That almost never happens, so I wrote it off to the pair being young. We will see what happens in the future. Make sure you are supplementing and feeding well and providing a quality enclosure and you will be fine in the long run. Don't stress over a single clutch of eggs or group of tadpoles. All will be well 

Mark


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

Thank you Mark. Your insight is much appreciated. I will be posting a follow up.


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## kirklandj (Feb 10, 2010)

Jimmyto111 said:


> thanks. yes i am very new. i have 6 tads out of eggs, a 10 day old clutch of 6 eggs and a 2 day old clutch of 4 eggs. I am obsessed by the whole process and i don't want to lose any of them.... how often do tadpoles die before morphing out? if all the conditions are right, is this a common occurrence?


In my experience I would say that is is a fairly common occurrence for not every tad in a clutch to survive all the way to morphing in the Ranitomeya species. Luecs may be a bit more hardy, I haven't worked with them, but as others have said, don't worry about every individual tadpole. It is highly unlikely you will have a 100% success rate.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

*Tadpoles survival rates*

I everyone. Is it normal to get an unviable clutch after getting 3 viable ones (same female, possibly different male)? Or is it a sign my female has depleted her vitamin A reserves? I was giving vitA every feeding for a few weeks(suspected vit deficiency)prior to her laying a bunch of clutches, but then went back to once every 2 weeks. She laid 4 clutches in 30 days, 21 eggs total. The last batch look like duds. I was afraid of overdosing them on vit A... any thoughts? 2.1.0. Orange banded Guyanas. 1 year and a half old.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

What is an acceptable survival rate? My first 6 tads are all doing great and getting very big.1 tadpole died in my second clutch of 6(he lost is gills 7 days before hatching and was severely deformed), all remaining 5 are eating well. My third clutch is about to hatch and all 4 tadpoles look great. Got another clutch yesterday but 2-3 eggs look like duds. I'm confused about the last batch. But it does coincide with lowering my vit A regimen. Any thoughts?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

*Re: Tadpoles survival rates*

I assume that you're using Repashy Vitamin A, and dusting with only that product?

Dusting with Vit A every two weeks is on the high end of anyone's regular dosing regimen. Using straight Repashy Vitamin A at every feeding is a radical, extreme overdose, even in case of *confirmed* deficiency. The label says not more than once per week. 

The results of one clutch, good or bad, are not sufficient to pass judgment on any action you might be taking.


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## jtherr (Nov 2, 2017)

*Re: Tadpoles survival rates*



Socratic Monologue said:


> Dusting with Vit A every two weeks is on the high end of anyone's regular dosing regimen.
> 
> The results of one clutch, good or bad, are not sufficient to pass judgment on any action you might be taking.


I have found that in the case of my tincs, they benefit from twice a month (every two weeks) of repashy vit A during the breeding season. 

As said above, you have too many variables to make a snap decision on one clutch of bad eggs. If it is from a different male that hasn't bred before or is breeding for the first time in a while, he could be the issue.

You might also want to try to slow the laying process down by removing ideal laying location or letting the eggs sit a few days longer. I've found that they generally won't laying multiple clutches if they are still eggs/tadpoles present in the enclosure.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

I was down to once every 2 weeks with repashy vitA, calcium plus on the other feedings. I will stay at that if you say I'm jumping the gun on the deficiency. I've been told newly laying frogs have irregular clutch viability. Is that true?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Good idea. Feeding only Vit A will almost certainly result in a calcium deficiency. It's normal for young frogs to have some irregularity in their clutch size and viability.

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Jimmyto111 said:


> I've been told newly laying frogs have irregular clutch viability. Is that true?


I've bred animals from catfish, canaries, snakes, geckos, frogs, mice, rabbits, chickens and sheep going on twenty-five years now, and *everything* has 'irregular clutch viability', usually for no determinable reason at all. Like Mark said, take the long view. 

It would actually be 'irregular' if all the eggs hatched all the time. So, what you're experiencing is normal, and regular, and natural, and what a reasonable person would expect.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

Thx guys. Lol I've been known to be unreasonable.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

I've been told inbreeding is a very real problem in the dart frog community.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Jimmyto111 said:


> I've been told inbreeding is a very real problem in the dart frog community.


I've been told that eating broccoli cures cancer. In both cases, what we need is evidence supporting the claim. I'll wait... 

There is speculation (_speculation_) that highland _sirensis_ are such problematic breeders because, among other issues, the captive population is bottlenecked. This is simply a correlation, as far as I'm aware, and it is the only case I've heard of in darts. There might be other cases in which such guessing has taken place, but I'll wager there's no supporting data.

Likely frogs aren't as susceptible to "inbreeding" as, say, snakes (there's actual data, I think on natricines) since frogs (individuals as well as populations) aren't as mobile as other herps. They would be genetically resistant to the effects of close breeding, since they've been doing it for so long.

As a bit of an aside, you seem to be casting about for an explanation for a problem that doesn't exist (i.e. unhatched eggs), a project that cannot succeed.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

As 100% success is impossible... btw how do I crop text when replying?


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## mcknzAlex (Jun 13, 2019)

For as long as he is breathing I don't think there's nothing to worry about.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Jimmyto111 said:


> how do I crop text when replying?


You use the 'Quote' button to reply, then cut whatever of the quoted text you don't want to show in your reply. Be sure to leave all the stuff in the square brackets [these things], and the brackets themselves, since that is what sets it off as a quotation.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I've been told that eating broccoli cures cancer. In both cases, what we need is evidence supporting the claim. I'll wait...
> 
> There is speculation (_speculation_) that highland _sirensis_ are such problematic breeders because, among other issues, the captive population is bottlenecked. This is simply a correlation, as far as I'm aware, and it is the only case I've heard of in darts. There might be other cases in which such guessing has taken place, but I'll wager there's no supporting data.
> 
> ...


This is true. You can also look at quite a few frogs that exhibit similar data with regards to difficulty of breeding (infertility, varying clutch size, difficulty of rearing young) but have not been around the hobby for long enough to suffer from inbreeding. I have a really finicky pair of A. pepperi 'Abiseo' that I have had a really hard time breeding. What I observe is the same problems with infertile eggs and infrequent clutches that are seen in frogs that might be suffering from inbreeding depression. I think there is just some stuff that is not known about the husbandry of Ameerega (supplementation? enclosure design? other?) that makes them tough to breed. They were imported by Understory Enterprises so there have just not been enough generations since import for me to be thinking it's inbreeding (I know that if the population was small enough, though, that it may not take that many generations to see problems). Ameerega are just tough. You don't see the market flooded with any of the morphs because few people are breeding them. 

On the other hand, take my A. quinquevittatus. Their great great grand pappies were probably imported sometime in the 90s. I don't know how many generations of small population size breeding has gone on, but it's more than the pepperi, I can tell you that. My group of Quinqs are among my most consistent breeders.

So, I think the available evidence at least indicates that there is more going on than inbreeding when there are difficulties breeding. Does this mean that you shouldn't try to breed frogs that are unrelated? Of course not. You should shoot for as much genetic diversity as possible. It isn't always practical to find unrelated frogs to breed, however, so you should do the best you can. That's my $0.02, anyway. 

Like SM said, you seem to be trying to invent a problem to solve. Just relax. All will be well.

Mark


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

Thanks for the info guys much appreciated. Today I found a hidden clutch of hatching eggs, 4 healthy tadpoles and 2 unviable eggs. They seem to have been laid on the same day as my 3rd clutch(4eggs). So 8 tadpoles hatching today.... that brings the total to 27 eggs laid in +/- 30 days. 5 unviable 22 viable. Of those 22, 1 tadpole died, he was deformed and lost his gills 7 days before hatching. I was just concerned I might be doing something wrong that was affecting their fertility. But you guys bring up valid points. They're are alot of factors we need to consider before we can pinpoint the exact cause of a problem. Best to thread lightly.

Cheers.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

So... I got another clutch of 6, 4 unviable eggs... this is getting annoying. She lays non stop, but rarely more than 2 eggs are viable. I hope it's just due to her young age. Vit A once a week. Cal+ the rest of the time. I feed 2-3 times a week,enough flies to last 2 days per feeding, then I let them scavenge for a day.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Jimmyto111 said:


> I feed 2-3 times a week,enough flies to last 2 days per feeding, then I let them scavenge for a day.


I think most folks would recommend that if you have flies left the day after feeding, to cut down on the number of flies fed at each feeding.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

How does my feeding regimen affect clutch viability?


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

I know I'm annoying. I'm trying to understand why the sudden slump.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Jimmyto111 said:


> How does my feeding regimen affect clutch viability?


Sorry, I wasn't making a point about your perceived egg issue. It was simply a general comment about established practices in frog care. Most folks here seem to think that FFs running around in the viv is bad practice (stresses frogs, supplements come off, FF's don't eat and so are not as nutritious, etc.).

FWIW, I've been pulling eggs from my leucs, and am running lower than 50% egg/tadpole ratio. Some clutches are a little better; some don't hatch any eggs at all; a few tads die a few days in. I believe that I am having fine results, but like I mentioned earlier, I've bred lots of species and have come to know what to expect in this very imperfect but enjoyable world.


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

You bring up a very important point. Flies clean off the supplements in less than 5min.... so I'm not really supplementing my frogs, I'm supplementing the rocks around my feeding station... 

I'll try to feed more often, less flies and make sure my frogs are hungry and eat quickly before the flies wash themselves.

I'm such a noob....


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## Jimmyto111 (Apr 29, 2019)

Thx socratic monologue. I'm sure we are on to something.


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