# Pumilo info



## frogcrazy (Nov 23, 2004)

Great news got an early christmas present today.Wife got me some pumilo.Just wanted to know if anyone knew what morph they are?They are the ones being sold by DTS Herps.Don`t have a pic of them yet but they are orange with white on there toes.If you need to see a pic there is one of the add on kingsnake.What a great surprise
Thanks for any info


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

If they are solid orange they are most likely Cayo Nancy or Solarte. If they are patterned they could be el dorado or bastimentos as well. Do you have photo's?


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Just saw the ad....I am gonna go with El Dorado. The Bri-Bri morph can also be org or red and is geographically close but since exports from Costa Rica are illegal and rare...I would put my money on the Panamanian form....


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

el dorado for sure, how many did you get?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

With regard to the same advertisement, anyone know what the red and blue pumilio being sold are (pics below)? Not going to purchase WC but interested to know for future reference when looking for CB - gorgeous frogs!


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

those look like almirantes


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

One thing to keep in mind with the "Almirantes" is that many localities have that particular pattern, so knowing where they came from is virtually impossible unless you're told.


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

I too, got a christmas present from the same place. I'm thinking they are Nancys.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

To the best of my knowledge, solartes won`t be coming in anymore. Those look like el dorados. They are too "stocky" for solartes, which are a more fragile looking frog, skinnier legs, more petite appearance. Plus, most solarte literally glow orange or reddish.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Definately El Dorado's, I visited Strictly on Wednesday and they had about 100 of them, and a dozen or so Almerante type. They also had a few of the yellow Gauramo type, which I was told sold well into Europe as no one had success breeding them. My guess DTS got them from Stricly: $45 for 1 frog, $40 for 6 and if you bought 12 $35 each.
I picked up a really nice pair of Almerante type which were bright red with black legs for $70, most of the rest of those were orange with green legs.


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

Well, it's good to finally have a positive I.D.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Keep in mind that it is just a guess. With how variable pumilio populations can be and the amount of overlap of color morphs, it's impossible to know with certainty what a frog is without having site data associated with it. It looks like an El Dorado based on color and pattern, but it's really impossible to know for sure.


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

Well, for the sake of never knowing, unless some exporter reveals all for the sake of all frogkind, do we just continue to use the generic name "Strawberry Pumilio" or maybe "Panamanian Orange" to identify these?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

It's probably easiest to identify it by the import year (i.e. 2008 Import) as each person will have a different name for the frog (Orange, El Dorado, Yellow, Orange Speckled, etc, etc.)


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## Jeremiah (Mar 1, 2008)

I have not heard of other names for el dorados, so using that name is what you should call them. the import date should be kept for your records


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

The thing is that El Dorado refers to a particular population of a particular importer of a particular year. You do not know for certain that these are El Dorados. They could have come from any variety of places. You're just guessing. It's like looking at the "Strawberries" previous and saying that they're Almirantes. You don't know that those frogs came from Almirante. You don't know how large the population is or where those frogs came from, if they even came from the same population as "true" Almirantes.

You can only name them with what you do know. And that is import year.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

sorry to get off topic but monarchzman; does your new yet to be described species show the same variations as the escudos? and what if any size differences are there? keep us all posted. i hope you will be posting your own thread on this morph when you finish your work with it.
also (and i know this may be a kind of $h!++y thing to ask but) how large have you determined the population is? enough for export  ? 

james


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

james67 said:


> sorry to get off topic but monarchzman; does your new yet to be described species show the same variations as the escudos? and what if any size differences are there? keep us all posted. i hope you will be posting your own thread on this morph when you finish your work with it.
> also (and i know this may be a kind of $h!++y thing to ask but) how large have you determined the population is? enough for export  ?
> 
> james


As far as I can tell, they don't show the variability that Escudos have (High blue, high red, etc). The sizes seemed to be close to Escudo side, albeit slightly larger ~14-15mm SVL. Whenever I do publish my work, I'll be sure to let folks here know. It's just a long process 

As for size of the population, they seemed to have a healthy population where I went, but since I did not expect to even find them, I can't comment much on the population size or even variability (I planned to make a quick trip there to get toes of the frogs I was looking for, so given that I didn't have much time, I wasn't able to observe those things fully). Because of those reasons, I won't say where they are. Even though they are somewhat difficult to get to, I fear that they could be pulled before knowledge of them can even be obtained. I doubt they'd show up in the hobby for some time. At least, that's my hope.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> (I planned to make a quick trip there to get toes of the frogs I was looking for


I'm confused by what that means.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I was working on getting toes (toe clips) for genetic analysis. Basically clip toes on 10 frogs and go. Generally, it takes around 30 mintues to catch frogs and clip them. It sounds barbaric, but it's pretty standard for non-lethal amphibian genetics work. And the frogs didn't seem to mind much. On a couple of occasions, I clipped toes on males, released them, and seconds later, they started calling.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

That's pretty interesting. So you don't just clip a section of skin off the toe, but the entire toe? I can't imagine how much that would ruin the frogs day. Sounds like a pretty good method since toes don't get a whole lot of circulation anyways.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Generally, I clip off about half of the toe on pumilio. Larger treefrogs, for example, it might just be the toe pad. I generally clip one of the toes on the hind foot. Researchers leave the long middle toe because of toe tapping and the uncertainty of its role. When I do mark-recapture, I'll have to clip multiple toes and probably have to cut more than I usually do (needs to be clear that it's a marked frog).


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> Keep in mind that it is just a guess. With how variable pumilio populations can be and the amount of overlap of color morphs, it's impossible to know with certainty what a frog is without having site data associated with it. It looks like an El Dorado based on color and pattern, but it's really impossible to know for sure.


You really think a brand new solid orange morph that looks just like the El Dorado's was found and exported by the collectors....just after the exporters started shipping El Dorado's? Common sense would say they will access that populaton until demand goes away....which likely it already has, then maybe effort to find something new.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Ah, well, I was under the impression that SNDF made up the name "El Dorado" to protect the location of the frogs so that other people wouldn't find out where it was? Am I incorrect?

Regardless, you name it with what you know. And for those frogs, you only know the import year. "Common sense" or not, you know what happens when you assume.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

And when the exporter has 200 more solid orange/yellow frogs and SNDF can not take them as the market has reached a certain saturation point where do they go? Some morphs are very limited in their availability based on the difficulty of collecting, Escudo being the perfect example but this is a business for the exporter and they will move a certain number of frogs no matter who ultimatley their end customer is. 
It would be great if SNDF did get exclusivity on most of the animals, it would save a lot of them from being killed in the wholesale process and the surplus of animals needed to supply the Kingsnake type market place.
I think it is safe to assume these are the same frogs, there is very little variability in this morph. There is enough information in the hobby that leaks out when a new morph has arrived, that has not happened with these frogs.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

You can only use the information you have at hand. The fact of the matter is that you do not know with certainty that these are the same frogs. It would like me calling them Las Delicias because that's likely where these frogs come from. I don't know it for certain, but they sure look like Las Delicias frogs.

For all you know, these frogs could have come from Changuinola. You can't be certain. There is an extreme amount of variability of "El Dorados." I've seen pictures of yellow frogs to orange frogs (like the ones pictured) to almost red ones. It's because of that, that one cannot say with certainty that these frogs are El Dorados.

The responsible thing to do would be to just advertise them by their import year.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

...they could be Guayacan...
JP you obviously know a lot more about Pumilio than I do but from a business perspective collecting other populations of frogs adds expense and the Panamanian exporter is unlikly to add any expense that is not absolutley necessary. Is not Las Delicias and El Dorado the same morph?

ps they can't be Guayacan as they are from Costa Rica...but I do have some so if you want pics send me your e-mail and I will send them to you for your Pumilio picture need.


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