# A Word of Warning: Don't Make My Mistake



## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

I just wanted to warn everyone not to mix separate types of frogs. I thought I could defeat the odds, making a beautiful mixed display in as little as 75 gallons. Well I was most definitely wrong. The tank contained 2 azureus, 2 cobalts, 3 orange sirensis, and 2 vittatus. I thought all the frogs were getting along pretty well until I came home one day to find one of the cobalts being pinned under water by an azureus. By the time I discovered what was happening the poor cobalt had drown. So I removed the remaining cobalt to a tank of its own and thought to myself, "Well that was horrible, at least the others don't fight." As it turns out, vittatus don't like sharing food with other frogs. I came home today to find a vittatus and an azureus fighting. The vittatus was apparently trying to consume the azureus. The poor azureus didn't survive either. Now I lost my female cobalt and my male azureus, and am scrambling to put together enclosures for all the remaining frogs. Please don't repeat my mistake.


----------



## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

fishfreak2009 said:


> I just wanted to warn everyone not to mix separate types of frogs. I thought I could defeat the odds, making a beautiful mixed display in as little as 75 gallons. Well I was most definitely wrong. The tank contained 2 azureus, 2 cobalts, 3 orange sirensis, and 2 vittatus. I thought all the frogs were getting along pretty well until I came home one day to find one of the cobalts being pinned under water by an azureus. By the time I discovered what was happening the poor cobalt had drown. So I removed the remaining cobalt to a tank of its own and thought to myself, "Well that was horrible, at least the others don't fight." As it turns out, vittatus don't like sharing food with other frogs. I came home today to find a vittatus and an azureus fighting. The vittatus was apparently trying to consume the azureus. The poor azureus didn't survive either. Now I lost my female cobalt and my male azureus, and am scrambling to put together enclosures for all the remaining frogs. Please don't repeat my mistake.


I'm sorry for your loss. I don't want to sound like an %#* for saying this, but there is a reason why we don't recommend any type of mixing on this forum... Again, sorry for the loss, good thing you are separating the frogs.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry for your loss. I'll bet this thread gets linked a few times in the future.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Sorry for your loss. I'll bet this thread gets linked a few times in the future.


Bookmarking it now. 

OP I'm really sorry about your frogs. Thanks for telling us about it.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I feel sorry for the frogs.
This tragedy, was totally 100% avoidable and preventable. 
Add this to the list of mixed tank epic failures.
This thread should be mandatory reading for anyone asking the question, why can't I mix species?
Mods, you should sticky this.


----------



## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

If your near East TN I have a spare 10 gallon I can give you.

D


----------



## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

fishfreak2009 said:


> I just wanted to warn everyone not to mix separate types of frogs. I thought I could defeat the odds, making a beautiful mixed display in as little as 75 gallons. Well I was most definitely wrong. The tank contained 2 azureus, 2 cobalts, 3 orange sirensis, and 2 vittatus. I thought all the frogs were getting along pretty well until I came home one day to find one of the cobalts being pinned under water by an azureus. By the time I discovered what was happening the poor cobalt had drown. So I removed the remaining cobalt to a tank of its own and thought to myself, "Well that was horrible, at least the others don't fight." As it turns out, vittatus don't like sharing food with other frogs. I came home today to find a vittatus and an azureus fighting. The vittatus was apparently trying to consume the azureus. The poor azureus didn't survive either. Now I lost my female cobalt and my male azureus, and am scrambling to put together enclosures for all the remaining frogs. Please don't repeat my mistake.


I've never run a mixed tank for any length of time - but maybe that wasn't the best mix for a mixed tank that size? I have no idea how their long term results are, but in mixed tank land (Europe...) I see things like one kind of somewhat mellow terrestrial frog (Epipedobates) and a very arboreal ranitomeya. A bunch of pretty agro things (tincs) that all hang out on the ground seems like it could go wrong pretty quick. 

And sorry about your loss. Sh*t happens; best you can do after it happens is make sure that exact same sh*t, at the very least, doesn't happen again. 

DISCLAIMER: I realize a mixed tank has nothing but downside potential for the frogs involved.


----------



## BUZZ1 (May 24, 2007)

Sorry for the setback.
Don't blame yourself for everything.
Consider that he drowning may have happened even if it was the same morph of tinc. Sex had alot to do with it. If you use that same tank for a group of tincs, you may want to get rid of that water feature.

Best of Luck


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

BUZZ1 said:


> Sorry for the setback.
> Don't blame yourself for everything.
> Consider that he drowning may have happened even if it was the same morph of tinc. Sex had alot to do with it. If you use that same tank for a group of tincs, you may want to get rid of that water feature.
> 
> Best of Luck


Who should we blame? Bigfoot? If Bigfoot was on this forum, and was warned not to mix but did it anyway Bigfoot would still be at fault.
Do you believe the losing team in Little League Baseball should still get trophys even though they lost and no one is ever ever to blame for anything? Do you believe in personal accountability?


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I don't think mixing really is the concern here in my opinion. I think the inability to understand the species that where put into the tank is where the issue lies. I think mix tanks are fine if you understand the constraints and requirement of the frogs placed in. Placing 4 species of frogs (3 of which are mostly terrestrial) is where the issue came in.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

How about let's just give him credit for admitting his mistake?

The vast majority of people on this here Board would *never* admit ....

1) That they did this 
2) and ... that they messed up

So let's give the person credit - and leave it at that.

We have a good link to refer back to for the monthly post about the topic.

Good on you for posting FishFreak. Better luck with your future Vivarium endeavors - and we're here to help if you need it.

s


Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Who should we blame? Bigfoot? If Bigfoot was on this forum, and was warned not to mix but did it anyway Bigfoot would still be at fault.
> Do you believe the losing team in Little League Baseball should still get trophys even though they lost and no one is ever ever to blame for anything? Do you believe in personal accountability?


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Scott said:


> How about let's just give him credit for admitting his mistake?
> 
> The vast majority of people on this here Board would *never* admit ....
> 
> ...


I agree he did a big thing. In the future others can benefit from his mistake. If it prevents just one person from mixing species, good will have come from this. I'm sorry that frogs needlessly perished. I'm sure he feels bad about that.


----------



## BUZZ1 (May 24, 2007)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Who should we blame? Bigfoot? If Bigfoot was on this forum, and was warned not to mix but did it anyway Bigfoot would still be at fault.
> Do you believe the losing team in Little League Baseball should still get trophys even though they lost and no one is ever ever to blame for anything? Do you believe in personal accountability?


Bigfoot doesnt keep dart frogs. Loosing little leaguers need no accountability, but encouragement. And female tincs tackle female tincs. The vittatus incident was avoidable but I think he knows that.

I wouldnt coach little league.


----------



## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I agree he did a big thing. In the future others can benefit from his mistake. If it prevents just one person from mixing species, good will have come from this. I'm sorry that frogs needlessly perished. I'm sure he feels bad about that.


Oh I most definitely feel bad about it. I just buried the poor little azureus in the backyard... I guess I felt that the territoriality would be similar to cichlid fish, as in a bunch of them in the tank prevent anyone from really claiming a territory, breeding, or even any serious aggression.

The good news is that at least I have a whole bunch of 10, 20, and 30 gallon tanks laying around to separate the frogs into. I also just recently built a 125 gallon vert tank for a group of anthonyi I'd eventually like to obtain. I guess I best get started on a rack, and eventually try to find mates for the frogs I lost.

Do these sound like appropriate tanks for the following frogs?
75 gallon: orange sirensis group (currently in the process of obtaining a boy for my 3 what I think are girls)
20 gallon: cobalt pair
20 gallon: azureus pair
30 gallon: vittatus group (would like to add 2 more vittatus to my pair)
125 gallon vert: Santa Isabel anthonyi (most likely a group of 4)


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fishfreak2009 said:


> The vittatus was apparently trying to consume the azureus. The poor azureus didn't survive either.



Wow, I have to say while I support the general consensus that mixed tanks should mostly be avoided, especially by people new to the hobby I'm surprised at just how violently this one failed.

I gotta know just outta personal curiosity  Did the vittatus like actually bite the azureus, and inflict wounds and stuff? 

I wouldn't be surprised to see wrestling but a dart attacking with its mouth like that? ...I've never seen that.

Anyways beyond the mixing issue this illustrates how it is good for anyone, not just noobs to have spare tanks/temporary containers and extra supplies around in case things go wrong.



fishfreak2009 said:


> Do these sound like appropriate tanks for the following frogs?
> 75 gallon: orange sirensis group (currently in the process of obtaining a boy for my 3 what I think are girls)
> 20 gallon: cobalt pair
> 20 gallon: azureus pair
> ...



Nothing wrong with a 75, but you might be better served putting the vittatus group or anthonyi group in the 75 and using the 30 for the sirensis. Pics of the individual setups would help us to give even better advice.


----------



## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Dendro Dave said:


> I gotta know just outta personal curiosity  Did the vittatus like actually bite the azureus, and inflict wounds and stuff?


At least to me, it looked as if the vittatus was trying to consume the azureus.


----------



## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

fishfreak2009 said:


> I just buried the poor little azureus in the backyard


Hey, I really hate to be that guy, but this was an irresponsible way to dispose of your frog, especially since it came from a mixed tank. Perhaps a viking funeral would be better.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Hey, I really hate to be that guy, but this was an irresponsible way to dispose of your frog, especially since it came from a mixed tank. Perhaps a viking funeral would be better.


Yes, I agree. You're introducing novel pathogens into your geographic environment that way... NOT a good thing.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Wow, I have to say while I support the general consensus that mixed tanks should mostly be avoided, especially by people new to the hobby I'm surprised at just how violently this one failed.
> 
> I gotta know just outta personal curiosity  Did the vittatus like actually bite the azureus, and inflict wounds and stuff?
> 
> ...


Dave here's a link to the 75 gal mixed tank. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...freaks-75-gallon-mixed-species-terrarium.html

Fishfreak, how long have you been keeping frogs? How long was this tank up and running? I only ask because I came from a background of lizards and cichlids. Clearly dart frogs are not cichlids. Where in your research about dart frogs did you read that frogs could be treated like cichlids? You said in the first post "I came home one day to find one of the cobalts being pinned under water by an azureus. By the time I discovered what was happening the poor cobalt had drown" when was that day? That was a sign of trouble right there.
I do want to give you a pat on the back for admitting your mistake. I know it doesn't make you feel better that two frogs died unnecessarily at your hands but perhaps no more will. All the plans you have for your further tanks sound spot on. You could either keep the vittatus or the anthonyi in the 75 and they would both make a great group frog. I have both species growing up and I wouldn't hesitate to help you acquire them. 
The point I'm trying to make here to you, and BUZZ1 is, we have to have personal accountability. Yes DB and the other forums are great to come and look at pretty pictures of frogs. But it's more than that, it's a great research tool. *We all must be responsible and accountable for doing the necessary research to avoid tragedies like this.* No one can do it for you, the responsibility is on you the frog keeper.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Dave here's a link to the 75 gal mixed tank.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...freaks-75-gallon-mixed-species-terrarium.html


Ah ya, I think I saw that thread after the close... Didn't get a chance to comment. Not much to say now that hasn't already been said... A Preventable tragedy. 

...But best wishes as the OP moves forward in the hobby


----------



## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Dave here's a link to the 75 gal mixed tank.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...freaks-75-gallon-mixed-species-terrarium.html
> 
> Fishfreak, how long have you been keeping frogs? How long was this tank up and running? I only ask because I came from a background of lizards and cichlids. Clearly dart frogs are not cichlids. Where in your research about dart frogs did you read that frogs could be treated like cichlids? You said in the first post "I came home one day to find one of the cobalts being pinned under water by an azureus. By the time I discovered what was happening the poor cobalt had drown" when was that day? That was a sign of trouble right there.
> ...


I actually started keeping frogs a little over a year ago now, when I got the two azureus at a somewhat local reptile show. I also came from a background of freshwater and saltwater fish, lizards, turtles, and even other frogs (green tree frogs, spring peepers, green frogs, bullfrogs, and grey tree frogs). I thought the crowding method would work, as it worked with both cichlids and damselfish... Obviously comparing the two was definitely wrong. I also definitely underestimated the territoriality of the frogs for their small size, and even though the tank was loaded with hiding places (around 15 pretty large bromeliads, multiple large driftwood root structures, and literally piles of cocohuts held together by growing live moss) it obviously wasn't enough.

After the azureus had drown the cobalt I did remove the other cobalt from the tank. What is really depressing is that I had already planed on pulling the cobalts from the tank, but hadn't finished the background in the tank I was going to put them in and figured a few more days wouldn't hurt. The azureus had been living fine with the sirensis since I had added them, and the vittatus had been living with the cobalts, so I figured they would be ok with the azureus as well... I was wrong. I do feel entirely accountable for what happened to the frogs that died, and in no way would ever wish that to happen to anyone else. That's why I posted this here, so that hopefully others who thought like I did would see it and perhaps be dissuaded.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

I've been in this hobby for almost 20 years now.....and I've seen FAR more deaths of frogs attributed to water features that to mixing inappropriate species. Lets face it, a cobalt and an azureus are both Tincs of the same species. This was most likely sexual aggression/dominance between the same sex. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, mixing species in well planned out enclosures can work out well. I recommend species that naturally cohabitate, but its not a prerequisite. I have a 65 gallon exo tall that I have Leucs, patricia tincs, cobalts, azureus and Zarajunga anthonyii in. This tank has been going like this for over a year with no problem. Yes, I've gotten eggs from who knows what pairing......and they promptly get frozen and disposed of.

P.S. I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone for admitting this......but......I don't care.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

You're doing the responsible thing and disposing of all eggs... To me, you know the risks, the arguments, etc. If you want to risk your frogs, that's your business. I don't expect to see you whining here about it.

I'm not saying the OP is whining, not at all. Nice to have a record of how things can go wrong, as something newer hobbyists can see


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

pdfCrazy said:


> I've been in this hobby for almost 20 years now.....and I've seen FAR more deaths of frogs attributed to water features that to mixing inappropriate species. Lets face it, a cobalt and an azureus are both Tincs of the same species. This was most likely sexual aggression/dominance between the same sex. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, mixing species in well planned out enclosures can work out well. I recommend species that naturally cohabitate, but its not a prerequisite. I have a 65 gallon exo tall that I have Leucs, patricia tincs, cobalts, azureus and Zarajunga anthonyii in. This tank has been going like this for over a year with no problem. Yes, I've gotten eggs from who knows what pairing......and they promptly get frozen and disposed of.
> 
> P.S. I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone for admitting this......but......I don't care.


I won't flame you... I get what you're saying, but to be fair water features are probably more common then mixed vivs at least in our hobby, especially 3+ species mixed vivs. 

We've seen that when it is generally accepted that a particular person knows what they are doing and it is well thought out the community will tolerate it... but this wasn't well thought out, but again kudos to him for owning the mistake and being brave enough to be public about it and let it serve as an example to others.

I will also say it was a nice viv, and I'm while I'm not surprised there were issues, I am kinda surprised it imploded this dramatically


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

pdfCrazy said:


> I've been in this hobby for almost 20 years now.....and I've seen FAR more deaths of frogs attributed to water features that to mixing inappropriate species. Lets face it, a cobalt and an azureus are both Tincs of the same species. This was most likely sexual aggression/dominance between the same sex. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, mixing species in well planned out enclosures can work out well. I recommend species that naturally cohabitate, but its not a prerequisite. I have a 65 gallon exo tall that I have Leucs, patricia tincs, cobalts, azureus and Zarajunga anthonyii in. This tank has been going like this for over a year with no problem. Yes, I've gotten eggs from who knows what pairing......and they promptly get frozen and disposed of.
> 
> P.S. I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone for admitting this......but......I don't care.


I think this is a huge part of this equation. Experience.


----------



## MarkB (May 23, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I think this is a huge part of this equation. Experience.


I wouldn't call it experience. I would refer to it as luck. People on this board are strongly against mixing speicies, so why should we frown upon one person doing it and not the other? I would actually look down more on an experienced frogger mixing species then a beginner doing it.

My opinion, your frogs, not my problem I suppose.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

MarkB said:


> I wouldn't call it experience. I would refer to it as luck. People on this board are strongly against mixing speicies, so why should we frown upon one person doing it and not the other? I would actually look down more on an experienced frogger mixing species then a beginner doing it.
> 
> My opinion, your frogs, not my problem I suppose.


While I'm firmly against mixing species, I think if anyone is going to have "luck" with it, it would be an experienced keeper vs a first time keeper. 
An experienced frogger is much more likely to choose two species which occupy a different niche, ie auratus and pumilio or bassleri and vanzolini. A new frogger is much more likely to do what the OP did, mix differet tincs/Dendrobates, which is just a recipie for disaster. I strongly discourage anyone and everyone from mixing frogs but like you just stated, my opinion, your frogs. We can't stop anyone from doing what they want with their frogs. Unfortunately there is no "frog police". This is actually one of the things that frustrates me about this hobby. There are so many moral and conscientious froggers that don't support mixing/hybridizing, they are adamant in getting good frogs from established lines, then there is the other half of the hobby that doesn't care. They just want cheap frogs, from whoever, frogs of questionable origin just because they are the newest, hottest frog. We really need to pull together as a hobby.


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

pdfCrazy said:


> I have a 65 gallon exo tall that I have Leucs, patricia tincs, cobalts, azureus and Zarajunga anthonyii in.
> QUOTE]
> 
> So that would be at least 10 land dwelling frogs in a 65 gallon. Sounds like lots of experienced planning went into that habitat.
> ...


----------



## IndustrialDreamz (Jul 15, 2013)

I would only mix if i had a 1000 gallon vivarium and with that i would only have 3 pairs of darts.


----------



## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Mixing can be done if enough research is done.

I have a mixed 180 gallon tank, with frogs from the same local.

The tank consist of a group of Sisa bassleri, Sisa altamazonica and Highland variabilis (according to Mark Pepper there is a local of variabilis from Sisa not in the hobby. He said that Southern would be the closest mroph to the Sisa, but I had the Highlands already). They have been together for almost two years now. The bassleri and altamazonica are both breeding. I did lose a couple variabilis from my intial group but have since added more and have seen no issues. The tank is also set up so that each species has there own areas to hangout, however they are usually all found in the same spot (the area i usually feed them)

I've done other mixed tanks with frogs from similar locals and had similar results. 

Basically I feel if you do your research and choose frogs from the same local which would normally interact in the wild, given a large enough enclosure it is possible to have a successful mixed tank. 

I'm not saying everyone should do this, but just pointing out it can be done.


----------



## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

There are are a lot of people on here with mixed tanks that will never admit it publicly, even some of those who regularly come out against mixing.


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

VenomR00 said:


> I don't think mixing really is the concern here in my opinion. I think the inability to understand the species that where put into the tank is where the issue lies. I think mix tanks are fine if you understand the constraints and requirement of the frogs placed in. Placing 4 species of frogs (3 of which are mostly terrestrial) is where the issue came in.


Venom, you're a goddamn genius... 

Okay, I have read through this thread twice. Must agree with Jon R that this was preventable, and our focus should be the frogs; also agree with Jason that there are probably a few here who "do I say, not as I do..".

Lemme admit for the umpteenth time I do not keep PDFs, my tanks are too warm. But Venom is right that there are a few workable exceptions.

--The OP's fatal error was to think he could extrapolate from American hylids or cichlids--no way;
--I firmly believe that there is much to be learned from general principles. When one learns more general concepts such as ecology, foraging theory, niche partitioning, amphibian behavior, nutrition, etc. it helps any hobbyist become better at husbandry. Why? Because the best way to learn through analogy and comparison. For example, P. DesvoJoli points out that it is better to feed insectivorous lizards several small prey items rather than a few large ones, because of the square-cube law (surface to volume ratio); in his words, "they are not snakes and they are not monitor lizards" (animals adapted to digest larger prey). When I read this 20 years ago, it helped me to comprehend the concept. So, I think it would be great idea in a mixing FAQ to address "Gee, if I can mix African cichlids, why can't I mix PDFs?" That is a perfectly innocent beginner's question;
--Niche partioning: We all go to the #@%! zoo, and we have all seen amphibians in big-ass mixed set ups. Here is where Venom nails it: This can be done if one knows not to mix:1) species that will compete for niche (Gause's principle of competitive exclusion); (2) species that can hybridize; (3) species with vastly different environmental parameters. Of course, this is a different question than mixing PDFs with other amphibian or reptile taxa; here the bio-geographic rule must be obeyed. For example, those who were at Frog Day at the SI Zoo must have seen: tamandua with marmosets; rattlesnakes with beaded lizards, tortoises and toads; and--I ain't makin' this up--a Merten's monitor with baby Australian ducks (seriously, I ain't makin' that up). 

I have seen: Larger Dendrobates with Phyllobates; Dendrobates with Agalychnis; PDFs with Atelopus; American Hyla with Anolis carolinensis; neotropical hylids with neotropical anolis; Litoria and/or Polypedates with constricting snakes; Theloderma with Megophrys and Tylototriton. What I never see is neotropical amphibians with Asian amphibians,** or three different _Dendrobates_ species in any set up, regardless of size, or two different Anolis species kept together that occupy similar niches. There are very logical, obJective reasons why the previous set ups work, but the latter three can not and will not.

Husbandry disasters and hybridizing are two separate (serious) issues, and should be addressed as such.

**Okay, I admits it--I have kept Tylototriton in a mixed paludarium with water skinks, mudskippers and small fish... Also kept Phelsuma in the same mixed paludarium--had I not done this, would have never learned that day geckos eat fish But, that was over 20 years ago.


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

So this whole thread posted by a guy being super honest, warning others to avoid mixing mistakes has turned into a "you can mix if you do it right" or "you can mix if you have experience thread" 

Sorry, I just feel like we are on the edge of a slippery slope that does not end in a sweet little frog pond.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

srrrio said:


> So this whole thread posted by a guy being super honest, warning others to avoid mixing mistakes has turned into a "you can mix if you do it right" or "you can mix if you have experience thread"
> 
> Sorry, I just feel like we are on the edge of a slippery slope that does not end in a sweet little frog pond.


Which is why hybrids will soon become common place and accepted. Because few give a s*** and take a stand.


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I agree ^^^


----------



## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Which is why hybrids will soon become common place and accepted. Because few give a s*** and take a stand.


I will say that if I ever found eggs in the tank when I had all the frogs together that I would have definitely destroyed them. I wouldn't want to create a hybrid dart frog, or a mixed location type dart frog. For me this is a similar situation to my cichlids (just here me out). While I do keep hybrid cichlids, as well as pure cichlids, and even keep some of them together, I don't breed them. Any eggs I do end up getting I let hatch and I feed to either my turtle or my grammodes cichlid.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

srrrio said:


> So this whole thread posted by a guy being super honest, warning others to avoid mixing mistakes has turned into a "you can mix if you do it right" or "you can mix if you have experience thread"
> 
> Sorry, I just feel like we are on the edge of a slippery slope that does not end in a sweet little frog pond.





Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Which is why hybrids will soon become common place and accepted. Because few give a s*** and take a stand.


Those are valid points, but if someone who has been in the hobby 10 years and post a viv with a species of darts and some some small day geckos or something I don't think we will be serving the hobby by picking up our torches and pitchforks and making this an unwelcome place for people like that... Of which I would probably be one, since I have mixed in the past (and admitted it), though I generally avoid it now.

The "slippery slope" is a real and valid fear, but I think it is entirely possible and more practical to show some tolerance for people who do seem to know what they are doing. We've already lost to many knowledgable people from the online scene because they eventually got burned out on the drama and repeat questions. I don't think we need to create or enhance any more reasons for people to exit the online community and stop sharing their knowledge and experience with us all. 

So basically peer pressure the hell out of the noobs/less experienced like we currently do, show some respect to those who own their mistakes, and show a little tolerance for more experienced people and take each instance case by case and offer specific criticism where appropriate.

I think that is basically where we are at/what we've been doing lately. IMO that is the right path... the middle path. 

That is where I'm at on the issue at least... To each their own, and I'll continue to discourage most mixing even if at some point I do have another viv with some frogs and geckos or something. 

So it is "If you have to ask you aren't ready" and "Do as I say... not necessarily what I do" for me until you have 10 years experience, and/or have kept any species you plan to mix separately for a decent period of time, be cautious and don't over estimate yourself and your odds of success... etc..etc.

Hopefully people won't lynch me and/or ostracize me from the community for walking the middle path.

Sometimes the best overall solution is the conflict itself, which maintains the status quo or relative balance, only tipping this way or that way a little till a paradigm shift... If ever that comes. 
The end


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

srrrio said:


> So this whole thread posted by a guy being super honest, warning others to avoid mixing mistakes has turned into a "you can mix if you do it right" or "you can mix if you have experience thread"
> QUOTE]
> 
> To sum it up, yes. If you want to keep a LARGE display tank that features a few species together, in a well thought out tank, AND you have the experience to identify early signs of aggression, I wholeheartedly support them.
> ...


----------



## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Which is why hybrids will soon become common place and accepted. Because few give a s*** and take a stand.


If the species put together in a mixed tank can't breed with each other you won't get hybrids. 

I wouldn't say I'm making a stand or don't give a s**. I've been keeping frogs for over 7 years and respect the animals and the hobby. I keep over 60 other species all in there own species specific tanks. Just because I have a though out, and successful mixed tank doesn't mean I don't care.


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I think that we need to look at the facts to this particular instant. The person who did this tank did admit which is RARE. But he did mix frogs that WILL fight once it reaches sexual maturity.

I also think that there are certain species that cohabit together which can work together. For instant, Costa Rican Auratus and Pumilo, or Amerrega and Veradero. The core to the argument I made, was that IF someone takes the time to research and understand it is doable. I HOWEVER also agree that if you are mixing I disagree with the concept that we should be mixing species that can breed. We should not be supporting tanks that could possibly create hybrids. 

If we understand WHAT we are doing then we can also lead. I have always felt that we as a hobby attack people who bring the concept of mixing up rather then guide. I know we hear it at least once a week because people don't do the key that I am suggesting, RESEARCH the frogs and their habitat. It's no different then us learning why pumilio froglets were so hard to rear, however after enough people started learning, we now have larger amounts of pumilo froglets surviving past the first 6 months of life.

Also thanks, groundhog that was a nice read this morning. Very rarely do I read that someone is calling me a goddamn genius.


----------



## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Which is why hybrids will soon become common place and accepted. Because few give a s*** and take a stand.


Why aren't we seeing more hybrids in Europe, where mixing is common practice?


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Why aren't we seeing more hybrids in Europe, where mixing is common practice?


I don't know, I'm not in Europe. Perhaps some European members of this forum would address this?

I do know this is the root of the problem though "So and so has kept frogs for 10 years and has a mixed tank, though I'm a beginner, if so and so can do it, why can't I?"
By saying it can be done, even by experienced hobbyisits, noobs will think they can do it. Though they most certainly lack the experience of observing and maintaining a single species tank for any length of time, it is permission by admission.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Which is why hybrids will soon become common place and accepted. Because few give a s*** and take a stand.





srrrio said:


> I agree ^^^


Soon become common place? I've been seeing hybrids in pet stores and "around" since I got into this hobby 20 years ago. This is not some "new" thing just starting to happen. Maybe you both missed where both I and the OP stated that we actively do, or would destroy any hybrid eggs produced? I have enough healthy, line/locale specific frogs, why would I want hybrid mutts hopping around? Maybe some people have forgotten why they got into this hobby? For me, its not JUST about the breeding and selling. I think Dart frogs are beautiful, and their highly active diurnal behavior fun to watch. I don't need to be breeding the $h1t out of pairs of frogs in 20 gallon tanks to fit in with this community. And I will take a stand. We don't need people trying to bully others into doing what THEY think is acceptable. I commend the OP for bringing attention to his loss. But rather than the message of "mixed tanks cannot happen", how about: "Mixed tanks are acceptable after you obtain some tank building knowledge, combined with experience in keeping several species, and a dedication to prevent hybrids from being created OR released into the hobby".


----------



## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

One of the problems is that most people do not do there research or they don't get the proper information before keeping these animals. I know we all made some mistake coming into the hobby, but if the people who have been around were to better guide and provide the proper information, rather than telling people something that it can't be done because its bad, instead of explaining why I think there will be less issues in the future.

Unfortunately the first place most people see these frogs is at the zoo or aquarium, and from experience 9 times out of 10 there amphibian exhibits are heavily mixed. I get so many people asking me if they can have a green frog with a red frog and then a yellow frog because they saw it at a zoo. I know for a zoo this is how they display there animals due to space constraints.

I just get tired of seeing mixed post and people getting told it was wrong and not to do it without proper explanation of why. And if it s being explained properly and people do this despite the repercussions then there is no way to stop it. People will do what they want despite the outcome.

I'm not trying to tell people to go out and start a mixed tank, in fact I tell people they shouldn't, but if its done properly it can be successful. And if someone is willing to provided a large enough tank, with the proper setup to house frogs that are suitable to co-habitat then I see no reason why it shouldn't be done.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I don't know, I'm not in Europe. Perhaps some European members of this forum would address this?
> 
> I do know this is the root of the problem though "So and so has kept frogs for 10 years and has a mixed tank, though I'm a beginner, if so and so can do it, why can't I?"
> By saying it can be done, even by experienced hobbyisits, noobs will think they can do it. Though they most certainly lack the experience of observing and maintaining a single species tank for any length of time, it is permission by admission.


So......experienced keepers should not admit to keeping successful mixed tanks to prevent noobies from trying the same thing? While I understand the logic here, that just doesnt sit well with me.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

ggazonas said:


> One of the problems is that most people do not do there research or they don't get the proper information before keeping these animals. I know we all made some mistake coming into the hobby, but if the people who have been around were to better guide and provide the proper information, rather than telling people something that it can't be done because its bad, instead of explaining why I think there will be less issues in the future.
> 
> Unfortunately the first place most people see these frogs is at the zoo or aquarium, and from experience 9 times out of 10 there amphibian exhibits are heavily mixed. I get so many people asking me if they can have a green frog with a red frog and then a yellow frog because they saw it at a zoo. I know for a zoo this is how they display there animals due to space constraints.
> 
> ...


George, point well taken. I think education is key. And having threads that are informative and knowledge filled with both sides of a viewpoint are most useful. I'd like to see people offer more constructive viewpoints on how things CAN be accomplished, than "just don't do it", (with exceptions of course).


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I do know this is the root of the problem though "So and so has kept frogs for 10 years and has a mixed tank, though I'm a beginner, if so and so can do it, why can't I?"
> By saying it can be done, even by experienced hobbyisits, noobs will think they can do it. Though they most certainly lack the experience of observing and maintaining a single species tank for any length of time, it is permission by admission.


Jon: One can make this same statement about any facet of life--career choices, relationship choices, diet, alcohol consumption, etc. Following this logic, we need be careful about any media, because impressionable young people may do _________. Real life is complex, and often what works in one situation will not work in another. This is a simple assessment of day-to-day reality. 

Let me be clear:

1) I do not advocate or excuse hybridizing; I am even skeptical of hybrid snakes. (Okay, I once stuck a male Endler's and female fancy guppy in my paludarium to see what would result. Got "intermediate" fish, brighter than guppies, not as bright as Endler's. Truth to tell, I was more impressed with the fact that the water skinks, mudskippers and African butterfly would not eat the babies)

But I would never suggest that different _Dendrobates_ species should be mixed. I understand that PDFs are not tetras and they are not African cichlids. 

2) But, this is a different question from whether different herp species should be mixed. It is well known that mixed species set ups--fish, frogs, lizards or birds--are not optimal if the goal is breeding. But answer me straight--what is your critique of any of the following combinations in very large set ups:

--American Hyla with _Anolis carolinensis_;
--Agalychnis sp. with a larger Dendrobatid;
--Larger Dendrobates with Phyllobates (I mention this because I see it a lot);
--Dendrosophus with Dendrobates;
--Small day geckos with reed frogs;
--Water skinks with Theloderma;
--Litoria or Polypedates with an arboreal agamine;
--Flying geckos with a rhacophorid;
--water dragons with Cuora;
--Crocodile skinks with an arboreal lizard or frog; 
--Agama with Cordylus, or a small African skink or lacertid with small Cordylus;
--Chuckwallas with collared lizards.

Note these dozen examples are all "bio-geographically correct." I realize that I would be very hard pressed to come up with an additional dozen. I would be hesitant to combine Abronia with a Central American hylid (alligator lizards are quite predatory); Or some tropidurine lizard with Phyllomedusa (lizards be faster than frogs); I am even skeptical of Atelopus with dendrobatids, even though I have seen this combination in a few professional settings. And, of course, my head explodes whenever we get the PDF--crested gecko question...

Bruce (my White's TF) is 15; Elmore the skink will be 14 in December; Taz (my Aussie water dragon) is 12; my American hylids normally live six-eight years in a community vivarium. Seriously--what, if anything, am I doing wrong?


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Dendro Dave said:


> Sometimes the best overall solution is the conflict itself, which maintains the status quo or relative balance, only tipping this way or that way a little till a paradigm shift... If ever that comes.
> The end


I very much agree with this statement Dave and is one of the reasons I posted in this thread. My admittedly subjective point of view over my years on DB, is that in general the venom with which mixing posts have been responded to has decreased with every passing year. In the past, I know I have even defended posters with a mixed tank at least once. T I am quite sure, and have seen, that mixing can be done responsibly and with little risk to the frogs involved. George, your points for the most part, I agree with. 

I guess it comes back to the slippery slope, if by tiny degrees mixing over time becomes more widely practiced, we will end up with more frog deaths, hybrids, and possibly new pathogens to deal with. With the hobby’s lack of general interest in veterinarian care and slowdowns in that market like there appears to be now now, I worry it would mean bad things for captive PDFs.

I think most people would agree having litter in a vivarium is great for most species of dart frogs. Can most species of dart frogs get along without it? Sure they can. However I believe using leaf litter is a “ best practice “ method. Most people would agree that the quarantine of new frogs is good to do. Can you put new frogs in your display tank and have no problems? Of course you can, but it would be “best practices” not to. So I would say it is “best practices” to keep one species per vivarium

Also the forums are probably the only place a newbie will even hear that mixing is not good.. As mentioned zoos do it, your local pet store is going to say “sure as long as they are the same size” (or something like that) and I am sure that most show vendors are not stopping their sale when the customer buys one of each color.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Abronia are fine with appropriate sized anurans... When I worked with A. graminea, they were not as predatory towards other animals as were the serveral Gerrhonotus species.

There are still concerns in at least one of the mixtures you have listed above... even though they are geographically correct, housing any aquatic or semi-aquatic chelonian with another reptile is to put the non-chelonians at risk of ameobiasis (and yes, I've seen it diagnosed first hand). If someone insists on housing aquatic/semi-aquatic chelonians with other reptilles (excluding crocodilians), then they need to have routine fecal checks performed as well as constant vigilance for animals acting "off"... This sort of cohousing should also be noted to be of higher risk for human zoonotics (particularly salmonella) as the lizards can more readily disperse pathogens such as salmonella onto nearby surfaces...particularly when the animals are removed or handled.. People often forget that salmonella can persist on surfaces for surprising length of time. Even though it didn't involve turtles, there was a surprise outbreak of salmonella in children back in 1996 The Near-Mythical Beast That Spread an All-Too-Real Disease - Facts So Romantic - Nautilus 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Thank you, Ed--was not aware of the Abronia difference (and hence, one learns something from an informed source on a forum!) 

As for Pysignathus--Cuora: I do not disagree, it is Just that I have seen several zoos do this. I surmised that it was deemed "safe" because the species are from SE Asia. Is it safe to conclude that the zoos did adhere to the testing protocol?



Ed said:


> Abronia are fine with appropriate sized anurans... When I worked with A. graminea, they were not as predatory towards other animals as were the serveral Gerrhonotus species.
> 
> There are still concerns in at least one of the mixtures you have listed above... even though they are geographically correct, housing any aquatic or semi-aquatic chelonian with another reptile is to put the non-chelonians at risk of ameobiasis (and yes, I've seen it diagnosed first hand). If someone insists on housing aquatic/semi-aquatic chelonians with other reptilles (excluding crocodilians), then they need to have routine fecal checks performed as well as constant vigilance for animals acting "off"... This sort of cohousing should also be noted to be of higher risk for human zoonotics (particularly salmonella) as the lizards can more readily disperse pathogens such as salmonella onto nearby surfaces...particularly when the animals are removed or handled.. People often forget that salmonella can persist on surfaces for surprising length of time. Even though it didn't involve turtles, there was a surprise outbreak of salmonella in children back in 1996 The Near-Mythical Beast That Spread an All-Too-Real Disease - Facts So Romantic - Nautilus
> 
> ...


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

pdfCrazy said:


> "Mixed tanks are acceptable after you obtain some tank building knowledge, combined with experience in keeping several species, and a dedication to prevent hybrids from being created OR released into the hobby".


The problem with this logic is two fold.
1. People are going to do with their frogs whatever they want to.
2. Who's to judge if they are experienced enough or not? If you tell them they can you could be inviting disaster, if you tell them they can't you sound elitist. It's a no win situation so the best thing to do is to discourage mixing from everyone. 



ggazonas said:


> One of the problems is that most people do not do there research or they don't get the proper information before keeping these animals. I know we all made some mistake coming into the hobby, but if the people who have been around were to better guide and provide the proper information, rather than telling people something that it can't be done because its bad, instead of explaining why I think there will be less issues in the future.
> 
> Unfortunately the first place most people see these frogs is at the zoo or aquarium, and from experience 9 times out of 10 there amphibian exhibits are heavily mixed. I get so many people asking me if they can have a green frog with a red frog and then a yellow frog because they saw it at a zoo. I know for a zoo this is how they display there animals due to space constraints.
> 
> ...


George, these are all great points and I agree that you certainly have the experience. I do think a mixed tank can be pulled off successfully if he right combination of factors are present. They include experience of the keeper, tank size, suitable co-inhabitants, proper tank design, etc. But can we really encourage this practice when every week the question of "how many frogs can I fit in a 12x12x12 Exo-Terra?" gets asked. Can we really encourage this when the average size tank for a new frog keeper is a 10 or 15 gallon tank? We saw a mixed species vivarium fail with a 75 gallon tank, albeit with very similar and IMO unsuitable species mixed. Who's to say how big a tank should be? 100 gallons? 200 gallons? Yes obviously the bigger the better, the better chance for success. Very few froggers have space, or resources for 10, 150 gallon tanks in their house. What's the answer then, 10 15 gallon tanks in which to keep pairs? I would love to do an appropriate mixed tank/showpiece tank at some point in my frogging career. I would love to have a 200+ gallon tank with A. basseri and Vanzos or Southern variabilis. I have kept an eye on Craigslist from time to time just to see if I can find such a tank at a decent price. But is this something I would encourage every frogger to try and replicate? No. 



pdfCrazy said:


> So......experienced keepers should not admit to keeping successful mixed tanks to prevent noobies from trying the same thing? While I understand the logic here, that just doesnt sit well with me.


Again, I don't know how to "police" it other than individually. If someone came to you and said they wanted to buy 3 cobalts from you. In the course of your discussion about the sale they said they had a 40 gallon tank and they were going to put your 3 cobalts in there with a pair another frog, doesn't matter if it's terribs, auratus, tincs, or thumbnails. What would you do? Still sell them to this person?



Groundhog said:


> Jon: One can make this same statement about any facet of life--career choices, relationship choices, diet, alcohol consumption, etc. Following this logic, we need be careful about any media, because impressionable young people may do _________. Real life is complex, and often what works in one situation will not work in another. This is a simple assessment of day-to-day reality.
> 
> Let me be clear:
> 
> ...


Again this is what makes this such a hard topic to discuss with no clear resolution. I normally see things as very black and white, but this has a lot of gray area in it. Like you said what works for some may not work for others. I'm willing to bet more mixed species tanks have ended like this one rather than ended like George's.

Gentleman thanks for the great posts and great discussion.


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Jon: Excellent, well thought-out post. (Although sometimes I gets a bit confused, as my first name is also George) And I concur: This has been an honest, rigorous discussion.

Regarding "very black and white," please allow me to clarify. I am a big believer in data, evidence and sensible rules. I understand that one should not base any policy--public or PDF--on anecdotes. Yes, there are 87 yr olds who smoked three packs a day--this in no way invalidates the Surgeon General's warning. SO, if someone told me, "Hey, I keep PDFs with Theloderma" or "Azureus with auratus" or "Red eyes from each continent (Agalychnis, Leptopelis, Litoria, etc.)," I would shrug and politely say I think you're making a big, bad mistake... Of course, Bozo would probably not listen--until he posted here to say, OMG what happened?!?--then you and I will be told to go easy on the poor guy... Somehow, it gets lost that our ire and concern is for the frogs...

I wish to reiterate four points:

1) Hybridization and pet welfare are both important issues, but I believe they should be explained as separate issues. I still don't get why someone would mix closely related species and say, "no worries, I'll just destroy any eggs..." Huh? Then why the hell mix? Because it looks cool?!? Dude, that's why God made African violets... (And I'll admit that I would try to avoid selling to this person--maybe that's why I ain't a rich capitalist);
2) Size: I agree that this discussion should have nothing to do with a 12X12X12--mixing is not even an option here. (Although,we have a way to go to match all the tropical fishes doomed by 10 gallon tanks... Cognitive dissonance, perhaps?);
3) Geographic correctness: If you want to ask about Brazilian X with Malaysian Y, Miss Thing, you have to stop. I get so exasperated when, in the same #&*@! post, the OP will try a 14th iteration of "but what if I do _____" Please, just stop;
4) I do need to cut the OP a bit of slack on one issue: He claims that he attempted to extrapolate from his knowledge of African cichlids (although, the crowding method can have its downsides). I suggest it is important to explain these differences--also a fine opportunity for a lesson in behavioral ecology. Otherwise, we run the risk of sounding like, "Because I said so."

My LOTTO dream is four bio-geographic set ups, all simple:

Neotropical: Corythophanes with Abronia and Smilisca (Here is where one can get stoopid on da bromeliads, boyz) ;
Afro/Madagascar: _Cordylus mossambicus_ with _Lastatia longicauda_;
East Asia: Paludarium with Japalura, Tropidophorus, Tylototriton and some small anabantid;
NG/Australia: Lophognathus with Litoria.

Oh, ba-by...



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> The problem with this logic is two fold.
> 1. People are going to do with their frogs whatever they want to.
> 2. Who's to judge if they are experienced enough or not? If you tell them they can you could be inviting disaster, if you tell them they can't you sound elitist. It's a no win situation so the best thing to do is to discourage mixing from everyone.
> 
> ...


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> The problem with this logic is two fold.
> 1. People are going to do with their frogs whatever they want to.
> 2. Who's to judge if they are experienced enough or not? If you tell them they can you could be inviting disaster, if you tell them they can't you sound elitist. It's a no win situation so the best thing to do is to discourage mixing from everyone.


If they are going to do whatever they want, why bother to discourage all mixed tanks? Who's to judge? If its my frogs for sale, then I am. Anyone who has ever purchased from me, at least gets a few months of their posts read by me. If its local/in person, its the 20 questions game. If someone intending to purchase from me shared that they intended to do a mixed tank, I would really feel them out whether or not they are prepared for such an undertaking. I have no qualms about not selling to someone, and I have cancelled sales before because I felt the person did not have adequate supplies or an inappropriate tank. 

I guess I don't feel its a black or white issue. There is plenty of middle ground. I would rather tell someone under what circumstances mixing CAN work, rather than say not at all. That takes time and patience to explain the different variables at play in the issue. The bandwagon hoppers (not pointing fingers at anyone) that simply say (and let me paraphrase) See, that's why mixing is bad, contribute almost nothing to the knowledge base of how mixing can be successful.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> As for Pysignathus--Cuora: I do not disagree, it is Just that I have seen several zoos do this. I surmised that it was deemed "safe" because the species are from SE Asia. Is it safe to conclude that the zoos did adhere to the testing protocol?


Most zoos and aquaria (particularly those that are accredited) conduct routine fecal tests and monitor the animals involved. Routine fecals are something that is often lacking in hobbyist collections. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## NODNARB (Oct 12, 2012)

pdfCrazy said:


> ...Yes, I've gotten eggs from who knows what pairing......and they promptly get frozen and disposed of.


'scuse me, total noob here, but I've been lurking around for a while...
When you say this, you're saying that different species can and do interbreed? Or just same species, different locale?


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

NODNARB said:


> 'scuse me, total noob here, but I've been lurking around for a while...
> When you say this, you're saying that different species can and do interbreed? Or just same species, different locale?


Both, An auratus will breed with a tincorius. A Cobalt tinctorius will breed with an Inferalanis tinctorius.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed said:


> This sort of cohousing should also be noted to be of higher risk for human zoonotics (particularly salmonella) as the lizards can more readily disperse pathogens such as salmonella onto nearby surfaces.../url]
> 
> Ed


How does this relate to mixing. are lizards higher risk than frogs?


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Dendrobait said:


> How does this relate to mixing. are lizards higher risk than frogs?


I'm not exactly clear on this either Ed. Can you elaborate? 

Are you essentially saying that by having frogs and lizards in the same vivarium there twice the vectors for infection to us? Wouldn't this be functionally equivalent to having lizards in one viv, and frogs in another viv? (as far human infection risk goes) Wouldn't we still have essentially the same total risk of contamination?

I understand that if we only have frogs, and no lizards in the house then we have less risk of contamination to us. But I'm unclear on how if we are going to keep both anyways how both in the same viv increases the possibility that'll we'll get infected more then having them in separate vivs


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Both, An auratus will breed with a tincorius. A Cobalt tinctorius will breed with an Inferalanis tinctorius.


Do you speak from experience? If so, what did you get for the froglets?





















;-)


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

ecichlid said:


> Do you speak from experience? If so, what did you get for the froglets? ;-)


No, I've never intentionally or unintentionally created any hybrids. I keep all my frogs in single species tanks. I'm a moral and conscientious frogger. 
If I ever did create any hybrids I'd probably sell them for big bucks to a gecko keeper in Chicago, you know what suckers those guys are.


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Dendrobait said:


> How does this relate to mixing. are lizards higher risk than frogs?


If I'm not mistaken, I understood Ed to be describing the real zoonotic risks of housing lizards with chelonians. (To elaborate on his example: One lets their lizard bathe with the turtles; then allow the lizard to walk on the kitchen counter; we prepare food on same counter, and; that night, it's off to the emergency room...) I certainly do not advocate this combination. But I am not familiar with the zoonotic risks of keeping lizards with frogs, something I have been doing for 28 years (I must say, seeing frogs perched on lizards always cracks me up It just seemed feasible to me because:

1) big, planted tank(s) creates different niches;
2) I'd seen it suggested in reputable texts (the basic line was it's okay, but not if your primary goal is captive propagation--the same could be said for tropical fish);
3) I surmised that if one "stratifies" the set up--i.e., terrestrial with arboreal/diurnal w nocturnal, then one minimizes competition. Again, very similar to the common guidelines for setting up a community fish tank. No serious herpetoculturist would suggest keeping four species of terrestrial territorial lizard, or three species of semi-aquatic newt, or a few species of trunk anoles, all together in one enclosure;
4) Again geographic correctness--this has been recognized as more important in recent years (30-40 years ago, European hobbyists might keep Phelsuma, Eublepharis and Litoria caerula all in one big, planted set up--always with Sanseveria!); 
5) Finally, the risk of pathogens is quite different from the potential risks presented by amphibian toxins. Here I plead guilty; I avoid Bombina, but I let everyone near my Tylototriton (hell, I play with my Tylototriton. In my defense, the Bronx Zoo keeps these guys with three other amphibians (Theloderma, Polypedates, Megophrys)! 

Again, hopefully Ed will be back soon to clarify the potential vector and/or zoonotic risks of lizards with amphibians.


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Tylototriton. Hehehe, I love those guys! They are some of the coolest looking salamanders in my opinion AND to top it off, they are legal in Washington I need to buy one of those guys some day...

P.S. they are considered a delicacy in China....


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

FroggyKnight said:


> Tylototriton. P.S. they are considered a delicacy in China....


Boo... Hiss... I keep telling myself, "I'm an anthropology major"--but it's hard...


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

I know it's so sad and unnecessary, but they also farm Chinese giant salamanders (_andrias davidianus_) for the food trade. It would probably be the most expensive meal in your life...

Sorry for hijacking the thread guys


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Maybe Entamoeba transfer from darts to lizards?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Very few lizards will do really well with a totally sealed off enclosure...and unlike frogs, they can and do run across screen lids dispersing contaminated particles across the screen.. the surrounding area including the lid becomes contaminated with salmonella and potentially other pathogens.. This is one of the reasons why they can be a greater salmonella risk (plus people tend to like to handle their lizards...) 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## mike12348 (Jan 23, 2009)

Little late to the thread, but thanks for posting this thread fishfreak. Hopefully it will prevent even a few people from going through a similar experience.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

FroggyKnight said:


> Tylototriton. Hehehe, I love those guys! They are some of the coolest looking salamanders in my opinion AND to top it off, they are legal in Washington I need to buy one of those guys some day...
> 
> P.S. they are considered a delicacy in China....


What's the toxicity vs Taricha native to WA? I used to live in a town called Sequim and the newts would migrate en masse out of the woods and into the golf course ponds in March. Thousands of them. Kids would die almost every year because some a-hole would dare them to lick one


----------



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Ed said:


> Very few lizards will do really well with a totally sealed off enclosure...and unlike frogs, they can and do run across screen lids dispersing contaminated particles across the screen.. the surrounding area including the lid becomes contaminated with salmonella and potentially other pathogens.. This is one of the reasons why they can be a greater salmonella risk (plus people tend to like to handle their lizards...)
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Thanks, Ed.

1) As we've discussed before, not all dendrobatids actually need sealed enclosures. Seems that for some it is easier (and it facilitates lush plant growth);
2) Maybe I had better success because I have never used sealed tanks. Some tree frogs (hylids and rhacophorids) seem to like to bask almost as much as some lizards;
3) Seems every arboreal lizard loves the screen tops. Even seen some hylids try to hang from them...
4) As my avatar shows, I handle my lizards

But again, I still think the problem of keeping different dendrobatids together is different from keeping say, D. leucomelas with Agalychnis, or a smaller dendrobatid with Dendrosophus. Whatever ones take on these, they are different issues.


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

frogparty said:


> What's the toxicity vs Taricha native to WA? I used to live in a town called Sequim and the newts would migrate en masse out of the woods and into the golf course ponds in March. Thousands of them. Kids would die almost every year because some a-hole would dare them to lick one


Not so sure… As far as I know, tylototriton is toxic but I'm not sure how it compares to the Taricha that we hear far too many deaths from up here.

I also have to say, seeing all those funny little guys migrate to find mates is one of my favorite sights! Their walk is just so cute. They act like they are the kings of the world I also didn't know they are found all the way to the peninsula. I thought their range was mostly restricted to the cascades and the surrounding areas.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Tylototriton almost certainly does not have the concentration of tetradotoxin Taricha possess. They likely have some different toxins as well-but lets just say that Taricha would probably not work very well for traditional medicine...

But they are slow moving, very aposematic, and in many respects similar to Taricha.


Ed: So if the increased salmonella risk of lizards is ok with some, then that is a nonissue for mixed enclosures. Frogs(aquatic frogs) have also been implicated in salmonella outbreaks. The curious thing is that they were able to trace it to a hatchery and much blame was placed on them but I can't say if frogs raised in pristine water would be any less of a risk. Dart frogs are likely lower zoonotic risk simply because there is less liquid being removed from the tanks and disposed of, and less cleaning. Versus with other animals cages are being cleaned and items disposed, frequently in the same sinks people wash their hands in or in the same tubs people bathe in. This is probably a topic worthy of a new thread


----------

