# Why do Froggers Always Assume Someone Has Frogs will Sell offspring ?



## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

I am just curious Why does everyone assume that anyone who has Frogs will raise and Sell Offspring...especially if they have a Mixed Species Tank.

Is there a Law which requires every Frogger to Sell Offspring that I am unaware of?


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

For most species proper husbandry inevitably leads to breeding, and a person can only keep so many of the offspring,


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

What Tony said in regards to husbandry leading to inevitable breeding.

In addition, even the seemingly cold-hearted, antagonizing, alienating froggers here on the board tend to have a soft-spot (specifically for frogs... that's kind of why they keep them), so when good husbandry inevitably leads to breeding and eggs, many don't have the heart to destroy eggs or cull tadpoles/froglets (even from mixed tanks).


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

... and while everyone who deals with hybrids promises to never let them out of their sight - that isn't quite the actual results we see here - hence we discourage the practice.

s


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I think I smell yet another mixing thread, hiding under a thinly veiled title.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> I think I smell yet another mixing thread, hiding under a thinly veiled title.


We've got at least two others going on right now... let's just say we've answered the question and move on, yeah?


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

This is an easy one - what are you going to do with 50 or 100 or 200 frogs after a few years. Remember they should all live 8-10, at least. What are you going to do with them all. One season a pair of E. tricolor produced over 300 froglets for me - what do you do with them all? Kill em? The only way to not breed them is to keep the sexes separate - otherwise it'll likely happen. 

Best,

Chuck



jpstod said:


> I am just curious Why does everyone assume that anyone who has Frogs will raise and Sell Offspring...especially if they have a Mixed Species Tank.
> 
> Is there a Law which requires every Frogger to Sell Offspring that I am unaware of?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

No it is not about Mixing. It is about everyone assuming That People will breed and Sell. 

So everyone is saying that everyone must own pairs? 
Otherwise People are saying not all froggers are treating their frogs in a Humane way. No matter if they house them appropriately. 

Are Froggers saying A person can not own a single frog or males only?
I have seen plenty of posts saying that many froggers keep more than 1 male in a tank. 

When you sell juveniles in groups do you guarantee that it is a 1:1 Ratio so as to ensure proper husbandry? 
So If I buy 3 Frogs at a Show or from a Breeder what do I do with the extra Males. Or do you breeders recommend not buying tadpoles and juveniles and only buying the more expensive guaranteed 1:1 Breeding Pairs? If someone accidentally gets 3 Males instead of a 1:2 Ratio do they have to sell the extra males or have to buy extra Tanks because a single big tank is not enough?

Another attitude I have seen on here and another PDF board is that people who allow the frogs to rear their offspring are treating them cruelly because they allow nature to run its course. Is the real reason that people advocate not allowing Nature to take it's course is to maximize the profits from your breeders?


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Tony said:


> For most species proper husbandry inevitably leads to breeding, and a person can only keep so many of the offspring,


I would say this mostly,
my new 2.2 lamasi already have 4 trios of eggs in the tank and I know I'm certainly not keeping them all lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jpstod said:


> Another attitude I have seen on here and another PDF board is that people who allow the frogs to rear their offspring are treating them cruelly because they allow nature to run its course. Is the real reason that people advocate not allowing Nature to take it's course is to maximize the profits from your breeders?


 
This actually isn't letting "nature take it's course" as it is an artificial system and often the results are a result of the husbandry used to care for the animals... for example, in non-phytotelmata depositing species, the space available for the tadpoles is often much smaller than that found in the wild, and the fat reserves and heavy feedings with the reduced energy out due to the smaller space allows for a faster production of a second, third and fourth clutch which further impacts the available space. While tadpoles are known to be cannibalistic, this is often a result of insufficient protein in the deposition sites in the wild and cannibalism can reduced or totally circumvented by feeding the tadpoles a diet high in animal protein..

In phytotelmata depositing species, it has been shown that increasing the deposition sites increases the population density (with possibly ventrimaculatus as an exception due to social parasitism) as there is less competition for deposition sites but again, due to the husbandry practices, we see a surplus of animals produced versus available deposition sites. Again, in the non-obligate egg feeders, we see lack of protein as a cause for cannibalism.... 

So you can't argue that "nature" took it's course.... as frogs are usually kept in systems that encourage unnatural breeding cycles, are fed to excess (obese frogs) to enable unnatural breeding cycles and often are unaturally deficient in one or more nutrients due to the supplements....


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jpstod said:


> No it is not about Mixing. It is about everyone assuming That People will breed and Sell.
> 
> So everyone is saying that everyone must own pairs?
> Otherwise People are saying not all froggers are treating their frogs in a Humane way. No matter if they house them appropriately.
> ...


No. We're saying that a vast majority don't own single frogs. When people get frogs and they hear they can have more than one in there, they typically think that, as a show animal, more is going to be better than less.

While there are those who are completely content having one or two frogs as show animals, most people who actually frequent the forum are not. They have multiple species, and they actively try to breed. Just look around the forum and compare the ones that say "do you think this is a pair" or "how do I start breeding," or froglet pictures to the threads that talk about their all male viv.



jpstod said:


> Another attitude I have seen on here and another PDF board is that people who allow the frogs to rear their offspring are treating them cruelly because they allow nature to run its course. Is the real reason that people advocate not allowing Nature to take it's course is to maximize the profits from your breeders?


I have not seen this attitude at _all_. Some people recommend pulling because there is a greater success rate when pulling certain species (and usually when we're making recommendations about tad care (like pulling or leaving them in) the poster has asked "hey, what do you think is best,") but I've never seen anyone looked down on for leaving tads in the tank. In fact, I recommend to everyone that, although they can be pulled, imitator clade tadpoles should be left in the tank, I've never been bad mouthed because of it.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

chuckpowell said:


> This is an easy one - what are you going to do with 50 or 100 or 200 frogs after a few years. Remember they should all live 8-10, at least. What are you going to do with them all. One season a pair of E. tricolor produced over 300 froglets for me - what do you do with them all? Kill em? The only way to not breed them is to keep the sexes separate - otherwise it'll likely happen.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


Did you get into the Hobby because You Love the Animals or was it to sell?
I have several Ideas what could be done with the Offspring
Donate them to Schools..
Donate them to Education Centers
Donate them to People
You are not forced to do anything with your Offspring you choose how you want to get rid of them.

I am Currently working with River Bend Nature Center here in Wichita Falls to House my Collection of Frogs and Geckos so everyone can enjoy them. I will continue to buy all supplies. I will maintain the Tanks. I will feed the Animals.

My Collection currently consists of 4 White's Blue Phase Tree Frogs, 1 Red Eyed Tree Frog, 2 Panamanian Dendrobates azureus, 4 Costa Rican Dendrobates auratus, 2 Bribron's Geckos, 1 Chinese Cave Gecko, 1 Leopard Gecko, 1 Marble Gecko, 2 Kochi Day Gecko, 1 Gold Dust Day Gecko, 2 Golden Geckos, 1 Lined Leaf Tail Gecko, 1 Lined Gecko, 2 Frog Eyed Geckos, and 2 Flying Geckos. 

My Goal is to have one of the largest collection in the Area. I love the New MOLA at FT Worth Zoo yet I am disappointed it has only about 4 Species of the over 100 Species of Dendrobates.

If they do not I am going to get a Place and Open my own education center. We do not have the luxury of having a Large Zoo close by. Our School system does not allow children to travel 150+ miles to go to zoos and Many people can not take their kids. People find it creepy to bring their family over to some strangers house and fork over Money to view a private collection.

Here are a few shots of my collection which I hope to be Hosted soon By River Bend Nature Center

My Golden Gecko Tank with New Universal Habit Background


And here are all the other Tanks, Racks, Lights, not to Mention a Mistking Ultimate Misting System with Seconds Timer that will also go


So should I under most peoples logic just open my Own Place and Have people pay me so I can profit because I decided to get into the Hobby and want it to grow instead of Letting a Nonprofit Education Center reap the Benefits?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

HunterB said:


> I would say this mostly,
> my new 2.2 lamasi already have 4 trios of eggs in the tank and I know I'm certainly not keeping them all lol


You options besides selling them....Donations


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some of this was already thrashed around in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/64745-difficulty.html 

Ed


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I have not seen this attitude at _all_. Some people recommend pulling because there is a greater success rate when pulling certain species (and usually when we're making recommendations about tad care (like pulling or leaving them in) the poster has asked "hey, what do you think is best,") but I've never seen anyone looked down on for leaving tads in the tank. In fact, I recommend to everyone that, although they can be pulled, imitator clade tadpoles should be left in the tank, I've never been bad mouthed because of it.


Not to start a war here but This is a Direct Quote from a Board Member

"When you say that you just leave the tadpoles in there to starve... I mean come on... that's horribly inhumane."


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jpstod said:


> Not to start a war here but This is a Direct Quote from a Board Member
> 
> "When you say that you just leave the tadpoles in there to starve... I mean come on... that's horribly inhumane."


 Starvation is considered to be inhumane, so if you are letting them starve as a method of population control then they are right.. you are artificially depriving them of food.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Where are you getting this from? There is no group of us on the board running around threatening people, telling them they have to sell their frogs! You think there is some sort of Froggy Third Reich?! "You! Over there! You must sell your froglets! Up against the wall!"
If you are keeping your frogs RIGHT and giving them a proper environment, and decent husbandry then eventually they will try to breed. You can pull them or you can let the parents raise them. I really haven't seen anyone slamming anyone else for not pulling the eggs and tads. If you provide proper husbandry and eventually produce froglets, you get to do whatever you want with them. If you want to keep 40 of the same species, bully for you! Enjoy them! Really, that's just fine with me. If you want to donate them, that's great! My hat's off to you! And I decide to trade some of mine for a different species, back off. That's MY choice and my right.
And yes. I, for one, think it's very cruel and unusual punishment to keep a single frog alone it's entire life. How would you like to be kept alone and isolated from all of humanity your entire life? Why would anyone purposefully deny them the pleasure of a relationship? 
What if someone ends up with a group of three males? If they get along well, that's just fine if that's what they want. Do I think they are missing out on an enriching part of the hobby? In my opinion, yes. Do I think his frogs would be even happier with mates? In my opinion, yes. I cringe at the thought of going through my life without my wife and I won't make my frogs do it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> . Do I think his frogs would be even happier with mates? In my opinion, yes. I cringe at the thought of going through my life without my wife and I won't make my frogs do it.


Ease up Doug, you are anthropomorphising. Dendrobatids are at best sub-social and do not show any signs of requiring stimulation from another of thier species. They are not a social species. 

Subsocial behavior is "postovipositional (after egg laying) parental care that promotes survival,growth and development of the offspring"
(Tallamy & Wood 1986). Subsocial behavior can take the form of egg or
nymphal and larval guarding, the construction of simple or elaborate nests, and provisioning of offspring with food collected by the parents.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Where are you getting this from? There is no group of us on the board running around threatening people, telling them they have to sell their frogs! You think there is some sort of Froggy Third Reich?! "You! Over there! You must sell your froglets! Up against the wall!"


I never said that..


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

jpstod said:


> So I am a Troll because I asked a Question.
> And I wonder why I hardly post anything.


What word would you prefer to describe ignoring the answers that are given and continuing to push the topic with inflammatory questions?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Ed said:


> Starvation is considered to be inhumane, so if you are letting them starve as a method of population control then they are right.. you are artificially depriving them of food.


There is a Difference in intentionally Starving them and letting Nature take its course even in an artificial environment. If a Frog Lays say 6 eggs which survive and becomes tadpoles and if they are feed sterile eggs by the Mother she may say feed only 4 and allow 2 to die. That is Natural because she may not produce enough..Or a Female might select a Brom which dries faster than another the Tad would die. 

I do not advocate intentional starvation in any way.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Tony said:


> What word would you prefer to describe ignoring the answers that are given and continuing to push the topic with inflammatory questions?


Why even answer and participate if you feel that way.
I can pull post after post saying...
They Will be sold

I do not insult people because they do not post what I want to hear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jpstod said:


> So I am a Troll because I asked a Question.
> And I wonder why I hardly post anything. I can pull post after post of people who post that Selling is the Reason not to Mix Species and It is invariably the first reason not to mix.
> 
> I simple asked why it is assumed that all froggers will sell. I never brought up mixing someone else did.
> If you look at my posting history you will see I do not troll. Thank you for insulting me with your informative post.


 
Actually it isn't the selling of the frogs that is the problem as the problem of misreresented or misidentified hybrid/crossed frogs occurs regardless of how the frogs are transferred to another person whether it is by sale, gift, theft or even left in a will. Attempting to restrict the problem to sales is a mischaracterization of the problem.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

I will point out that I did not Mention Mixing at all in My Question..It was another Board member who brought it into the Subject.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jpstod said:


> There is a Difference in intentionally Starving them and letting Nature take its course even in an artificial environment. If a Frog Lays say 6 eggs which survive and becomes tadpoles and if they are feed sterile eggs by the Mother she may say feed only 4 and allow 2 to die. That is Natural because she may not produce enough..Or a Female might select a Brom which dries faster than another the Tad would die.
> 
> I do not advocate intentional starvation in any way.


You cannot define the result of an action in an artificial enviroment as natural in any way. To use your example, the bromeilad drying too quickly is the result of either husbandry (too little water flowing into the bromeliad, and/or too little light resulting in growth that is poor at holding water and/or incorrect bromeliad choices on the part of the keeper, and/or insufficient options for tadpole deposition...) 

As for the starvation issue... I already addressed how it is unnatural with it due to husbandry problems above and your argument skips over those points.. On what proof are you arguing that in the wild the female would be unable to rear all six eggs? 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

jpstod said:


> I will point out that I did not Mention Mixing at all in My Question..It was another Board member who brought it into the Subject.


The first post in the topic:


jpstod said:


> I am just curious Why does everyone assume that anyone who has Frogs will raise and Sell Offspring...especially if they have a Mixed Species Tank.
> 
> Is there a Law which requires every Frogger to Sell Offspring that I am unaware of?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Ed said:


> Actually it isn't the selling of the frogs that is the problem as the problem of misreresented or misidentified hybrid/crossed frogs occurs regardless of how the frogs are transferred to another person whether it is by sale, gift, theft or even left in a will. Attempting to restrict the problem to sales is a mischaracterization of the problem.


Thank you Ed that is a much more Constructive reason than just because of selling. Many People are not true experts on frogs and I can see where that would be a problem especially even a person as myself trying to educate people on PDFs were to display them. Imagine a Red Azures with pink noses and purple legs. And people believing that is what they look like in the wild. I truly can not identify all species by sight and rely on what people say they are. I do not advocate any type of "Morph" breeding of any animals...especially for the purpose of making money. We know it happens. I do not buy Designer Animals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You also need to take into account the many posts in the identification thread that start with "got this frog, can anyone tell me what it is".. we know that there can be significant variation within a "morph" and that some of those variations can closely match another population of the frogs (and this is even before we account for changes that can occur if the frog in question is a froglet). This is where we can run significant risks of hybrid/crossed frogs. 

Ed


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Tony said:


> The first post in the topic:


I stand Corrected My Apologies. Thats what happens when You post at 0357 Local time after being up 22 Hours straight and Reply from Emails instead of Going back and reading the whole conversation. I do tend to forget what I posted.

From My Point of few with so limited Number of Froggers near me and no local shows some of you who have more than 1 National Show and a 150 Mile away Local Quarterly show where I see may 6 Breeders at the National show and 3 Breeders at the Not so Local show it might seem like everyone is selling their offspring. Maybe in your Areas you have Daily Craigslist listings of PDFs and Dozens of Sellers at Every Sale which would Indicate Everyone is Selling Frogs. I wish I had a lot of people who were selling frogs near me so I could Haggle over price instead of Fighting over frogs. I hate getting to a Show and finding nothing left because the 6 Available frogs were sold within the first few Minutes of the Opening. I search the OK City, Dallas, Ft Worth, San Antonio and Austin Craigslists and I have yet to find a single PDF for Sale.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> I think I smell yet another mixing thread, hiding under a thinly veiled title.


Due to Email Orders this is the Reply I thought I was seeing first


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

jpstod said:


> You options besides selling them....Donations


I also want a return on my investment....if they go to good homes, how is that bad?


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

jpstod said:


> From My Point of few with so limited Number of Froggers near me and no local shows


There are tons of TX froggers who meet up on a fairly regular basis. Get in touch with Beth (BCS TX), she should be able to hook you up with info on local froggers and events.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jpstod said:


> I am just curious Why does everyone assume that anyone who has Frogs will raise and Sell Offspring...especially if they have a Mixed Species Tank.
> 
> Is there a Law which requires every Frogger to Sell Offspring that I am unaware of?





jpstod said:


> Due to Email Orders this is the Reply I thought I was seeing first


I did not mention mixing, until after YOU did, in the very first sentance of your very first post, in this thread. You opened with mixing...Yes, I followed up.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Craigslist is *not* where you go to buy frogs. Seriously. Maybe tanks - but not frogs.

As Tony says - there are many VERY knowledgeable TX froggers.

s


Tony said:


> There are tons of TX froggers who meet up on a fairly regular basis. Get in touch with Beth (BCS TX), she should be able to hook you up with info on local froggers and events.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott said:


> Craigslist is *not* where you go to buy frogs. Seriously. Maybe tanks - but not frogs.


I've been told of a couple of people finding dendrobatids on Craig's list but I have never seen them for "rehoming" on there. 

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I have to say this is a very strange thread topic. Dendroboard is a husbandry site dedicated to the rearing AND breeding of dart frogs. I don't understand why someone would post the question as to why we are all talking about breeding frogs.

Every person is free not to breed their frogs if they don't want to, but I personally feel a great satisfaction in knowing that I provided my frogs a positive enough experience in my home that they could behave as they would in nature (which is to breed).

Richard.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> I have to say this is a very strange thread topic. Dendroboard is a husbandry site dedicated to the rearing AND breeding of dart frogs. I don't understand why someone would post the question as to why we are all talking about breeding frogs.
> 
> Every person is free not to breed their frogs if they don't want to, but I personally feel a great satisfaction in knowing that I provided my frogs a positive enough experience in my home that they could behave as they would in nature (which is to breed).
> 
> Richard.


my thoughts exactly, 
the more I reread this thread - the more the original post just doesn't make sense..


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Tony said:


> There are tons of TX froggers who meet up on a fairly regular basis. Get in touch with Beth (BCS TX), she should be able to hook you up with info on local froggers and events.


I have. I buy from Beth and Cindy and a Small group...How ever I am the Only Frogger in My Area. Beth and Cindy are 150+ Miles from Me. 
At almost $4 per Gallon of Gas and a 2 Hour drive each way It ain't to convenient to just pop in on a whim and buy..

As for Shipping...it hit 110*F yesterday. We are averaging 99*F daily. They Might end up cooked.

Last Month I saw Cindy and 1 other person that Had PDFs at Lone Reptile Expo in Arlington by the time I drove down. I got a pair from Cindy.

If I had time and Money I can drive the 384 mile or as Google Maps puts it 6 23 minutes to San Antonio Texas to shop


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jpstod said:


> I have. I buy from Beth and Cindy and a Small group...How ever I am the Only Frogger in My Area. Beth and Cindy are 150+ Miles from Me.
> At almost $4 per Gallon of Gas and a 2 Hour drive each way It ain't to convenient to just pop in on a whim and buy..
> 
> As for Shipping...it hit 110*F yesterday. We are averaging 99*F daily. They Might end up cooked.
> ...


Why are you buying frogs if you are so set against anyone selling frogs? That ain't Right!


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

HunterB said:


> I also want a return on my investment....if they go to good homes, how is that bad?


It is not bad..It certainly is an option however it ain't the Only Option. It is the Only Option if you want to make money.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Woodsman said:


> I have to say this is a very strange thread topic. Dendroboard is a husbandry site dedicated to the rearing AND breeding of dart frogs. I don't understand why someone would post the question as to why we are all talking about breeding frogs.
> 
> Every person is free not to breed their frogs if they don't want to, but I personally feel a great satisfaction in knowing that I provided my frogs a positive enough experience in my home that they could behave as they would in nature (which is to breed).
> 
> Richard.


But I asked why everyone is assumed to be selling Offspring.I do not recall asking why people breed frogs..You can discuss Husbandry without saying someone is going to sell the frogs. And there is more to Dendroboard than just Husbandry..Although 13 of the Categories is Ad Sections. and only 2 Sections on Construction. 

Each person has their way of doing things..I am Sure PETA would say we all are unethical and cruelly treat our animals since even if they are captive born in the Majority of the Cases we keep them. PETA does not believe even in Having Cats and Dogs as pets.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm going to note one other thing here...

The place I currently work at has a policy of "adopting" out animals that people have surrendered to us. This is all well and good at first glance, and is certainly great PR.

But I cannot tell you how many people come in all the time, especially in the aquatics area, and ask what we have for adoption. They don't care what it is, how big it gets, etc...they just want it because it's either free, or very cheap. Same thing with things that go on sale...people grab them up just because they're on sale.

Charge $100 for a frog, or give it away...which one do you feel is most likely to get a home with an owner who will have a long term interest in the frog? At the very least, price makes people think twice, especially with something as colorful and endearing as a dart frog, whose size and color make it an easy impulse with a low or non-existant price point.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Why are you buying frogs if you are so set against anyone selling frogs? That ain't Right!


Can you quote post me in saying I am against anyone selling frogs. I have stated multiple times I support anyone selling frogs..I just say it is not the Only Option

I will ask the Question again for you to answer

Why is it assumed everyone will sell offspring?

Maybe in PA there are 1000 PDF Breeders at Every Show
Maybe WA has 10000 Local Ads daily for PDF Breeders
which would support someone assuming everyone is breeding frogs to sell.

But here in Wichita Falls I am the Only Frogger here that I know of. I am on good terms with the people at Petco and Petsmart and 1 Guy asked about PDFs he was referred to me. I said I was going to a Show and he could go with me but frogs started at $45 each plus share of Gas and Fee to get into show....Never heard from him again

Archer County PDFS are banned or so I have heard from the Lady who owns Nature's Half Acre


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Seems there is a Missing Posting in the subject..which I was going to to reply to but I do not see it now


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jpstod said:


> Seems there is a Missing Posting in the subject..which I was going to to reply to but I do not see it now


Yes, I withdrew it immediately. Good day, good luck, and goodbye.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll finish my participation here by saying that I hope you stay in the hobby and have great success in rearing and breeding your frogs. If you are successful, you will likely have more than you can take care (I know I certainly do). Please remember this thread and update us with your ideas on the subject when you have a few hundred mouths to feed.

Good luck to you, Richard.



jpstod said:


> Seems there is a Missing Posting in the subject..which I was going to to reply to but I do not see it now


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Well Hopefully Soon the Local Nature Education Center will be hosting My Private Collection and If we do Breed then we will share the Offspring.

It would be Great to allow Kids to watch the progress of the Development of Frogs through all stages.


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## Blocker Institute (Apr 19, 2010)

When/if you share the offspring, will you be providing all of the necessary equipment and all education to properly rear said tadpole/froglet/frog? Or will you simply let the new folks "wing-it" and try to figure it out until the frog dies? What's more humane; the rearing, breeding and/or selling of PDF's by responsible caring reputable breeders or the haphazrd "I got it free from a dude at the nature center" situation?

To answer your question posed in the initial subject line

The reason froggers assume someone will be selling frogs is because the cost to keep a substantial collection in great health requires a great deal of money. Food, electricity, broms, corkbark, tanks, glass, rocks, papertowels.....the list can go on for sometime. Very few have limitless incomes to pump into this love or ours. 

Most that really care about the animals due so because we have a vested interest in it. In order for them to keep such large collections costs money. You complain simply of travel and gas to provide for a couple of tanks. Do yourself a huge favor and lie low and formulate a better idea of what it takes to provide consistent high levels of health and husbandry for your little guys before continuously poking around for antagonists...you will easily find your share here. 

Enjoy your frogs and love them all. 

Thanks
Jason


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

jpstod said:


> I stand Corrected My Apologies. Thats what happens when You post at 0357 Local time after being up 22 Hours straight and Reply from Emails instead of Going back and reading the whole conversation. I do tend to forget what I posted.
> 
> From My Point of few with so limited Number of Froggers near me and no local shows some of you who have more than 1 National Show and a 150 Mile away Local Quarterly show where I see may 6 Breeders at the National show and 3 Breeders at the Not so Local show it might seem like everyone is selling their offspring. Maybe in your Areas you have Daily Craigslist listings of PDFs and Dozens of Sellers at Every Sale which would Indicate Everyone is Selling Frogs. I wish I had a lot of people who were selling frogs near me so I could Haggle over price instead of Fighting over frogs. I hate getting to a Show and finding nothing left because the 6 Available frogs were sold within the first few Minutes of the Opening. I search the OK City, Dallas, Ft Worth, San Antonio and Austin Craigslists and I have yet to find a single PDF for Sale.


Check out Houston - I have a couple of female Surinam Cobalts for sale. And yes, I run into the same problem - not enuf froggers in the south, which limits our options.


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

jpstod said:


> Well Hopefully Soon the Local Nature Education Center will be hosting My Private Collection and If we do Breed then we will share the Offspring.
> 
> It would be Great to allow Kids to watch the progress of the Development of Frogs through all stages.


Can I get some free frogs


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

It is really difficult to understand what the OP is arguing for. On one hand he states he's against people selling frogs, then he claims that he never said that. 

What is the POINT of this thread? Please take the time to type out exactly what your argument is, because as of right now this thread makes no sense whatsoever.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jpstod said:


> Well Hopefully Soon the Local Nature Education Center will be hosting My Private Collection and If we do Breed then we will share the Offspring.
> 
> It would be Great to allow Kids to watch the progress of the Development of Frogs through all stages.





Blocker Institute said:


> When/if you share the offspring, will you be providing all of the necessary equipment and all education to properly rear said tadpole/froglet/frog? Or will you simply let the new folks "wing-it" and try to figure it out until the frog dies? What's more humane; the rearing, breeding and/or selling of PDF's by responsible caring reputable breeders or the haphazrd "I got it free from a dude at the nature center" situation?
> 
> To answer your question posed in the initial subject line
> 
> ...


This is a very valid point Jason. People will claim they are ready so that they can get some free frogs when in reality they do not have the time, money, nor even the long term inclination to remain dedicated to their care. I feel this could produce a lot of dead frogs.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

jpstod said:


> 2 Panamanian Dendrobates azureus


Panamanian Azureus?! ummm...I think you were given false information...


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

I am still new to this <2 years but I've gave the 2 first froglets from my luec trio to a freind. However I knew she would care for them and give them a good home. She's already has a second tank and a trio of varedaros she picked up at frog day. In no time she will be an asset to the community so I'm thrilled that I can get responsiable hobbyist to join the party. 

The guy that sits next to me in the office wants to take his daughter over to see my frogs. We already laughed about him setting up a tank for some frogs. I will also be giving him a pair of frogs at no charge. He works with me in an environmental consulting firm, his wife is a biologist and they already keep corn snakes. I'm pretty confident they are going to a good home so I have no problem giving them a pair of froglets when the time comes. So yeah you can give frogs away but I also know who I'm giving them too and confident they will be provided with care and love.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

VicSkimmr said:


> It is really difficult to understand what the OP is arguing for. On one hand he states he's against people selling frogs, then he claims that he never said that.
> 
> What is the POINT of this thread? Please take the time to type out exactly what your argument is, because as of right now this thread makes no sense whatsoever.


Again Please post where I said I am Against people selling Frogs..I never said That..
I asked why people assume people who have frogs will sell Offspring...
It always comes up especially in a Mixed Tank..No oNe ever Asks..I see You Have a Mixed Tank..Are they All Males or All Females.. NO the First Responce is almost Always....OH MY GOD THEY ARE GOING TO SELL OFFSPRING

Most People say the reason assumed is to cover cost..ok
So Can We assume also using that theory
Everyone who Homebrews Beer and Wine Sells Home made beer and Wine to Cover Cost
Everyone who Races Cars Sells Souped Up Cars to Cover their Costs
Everyone who Works with Wood Sells Wood Products
Everyone who Paints sells Paintings
Everyone who Gardens will sell plants


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

jpstod said:


> Again Please post where I said I am Against people selling Frogs..I never said That..
> I asked why people assume people who have frogs will sell Offspring...
> It always comes up especially in a Mixed Tank..No oNe ever Asks..I see You Have a Mixed Tank..Are they All Males or All Females.. NO the First Responce is almost Always....OH MY GOD THEY ARE GOING TO SELL OFFSPRING
> 
> ...


What are you going to do with the offspring? Keep them? What happens after a year and you have 100 offspring? You either sell them, trade them or give them away. Most hobbyist I know sell frogs to get more frogs. So there is no out of pocket money when getting new frogs. Your money is pretty much cycled and it keeps the hobby going strong.

As far as mixed frog tanks people are afraid of Hybrids and hybrids getting out into the hobby. Frogs last longer than the average hobbyist. In the few years I've been on this board I can't even count how many people got in and out of the hobby in that time


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

jpstod said:


> Again Please post where I said I am Against people selling Frogs..I never said That..
> I asked why people assume people who have frogs will sell Offspring...
> It always comes up especially in a Mixed Tank..No oNe ever Asks..I see You Have a Mixed Tank..Are they All Males or All Females.. NO the First Responce is almost Always....OH MY GOD THEY ARE GOING TO SELL OFFSPRING


Hopeless Sounds like you're trying to justify mixed tanks by saying you won't sell offspring.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

jpstod said:


> Again Please post where I said I am Against people selling Frogs..I never said That..
> I asked why people assume people who have frogs will sell Offspring...
> It always comes up especially in a Mixed Tank..No oNe ever Asks..I see You Have a Mixed Tank..Are they All Males or All Females.. NO the First Responce is almost Always....OH MY GOD THEY ARE GOING TO SELL OFFSPRING
> 
> ...


You're missing a big point here. Brewing beer, painting paintings, working wood...these are all things that you can do intermittently, store in the garage/basement/attic, and require little upkeep or care. They are not frogs. Frogs will reproduce indefinitely, the babies must all be housed in proper social groups (sometimes meaning alone), which all require an indefinite number of proper, permanent setups. Your comparisons have absolutely nothing to do with anything pertaining to the dart frog hobby, or ANY animal-related hobby.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

jpstod said:


> I asked why people assume people who have frogs will sell Offspring...


I think it's because of "More Likely Than Not"...

If you see a tank of frogs, more likely than not there will be offspring.
If someone has froglets, more likely than not they will want some type of monetary compensation for them rather than giving them away.

...just as the painter, woodworker, etc would want.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

As a hobby, I turn duck calls on a wood lathe, carve duck decoys, paint, screen print t-shirts, and build cabinets. 

I sell them all.

As to what you are saying in your original post, I get where you are coming from. 

If I get you correctly, you are saying that just because someone breeds hybrids, that doesn't mean they will sell the offspring.

As an example, you are donating your collection to a museum or such. Refer to the thread on the museum selling hybrids. 

You could donate them to a school. That would be cool and the kids would learn alot. 

And then the summer break comes, and the frogs are given to "Johnny". Johnny doesn't take care of them so Johnny's dad takes them to the Pet store. 

It doesn't matter if they are sold, traded, or given away. There is a chance they will get into the hobby mislabelled.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

dravenxavier said:


> You're missing a big point here. Brewing beer, painting paintings, working wood...these are all things that you can do intermittently, store in the garage/basement/attic, and require little upkeep or care. They are not frogs. Frogs will reproduce indefinitely, the babies must all be housed in proper social groups (sometimes meaning alone), which all require an indefinite number of proper, permanent setups. Your comparisons have absolutely nothing to do with anything pertaining to the dart frog hobby, or ANY animal-related hobby.


Shit, that beer is gettin drank. It ain't going in the attic.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Blocker Institute said:


> When/if you share the offspring, will you be providing all of the necessary equipment and all education to properly rear said tadpole/froglet/frog? Or will you simply let the new folks "wing-it" and try to figure it out until the frog dies? What's more humane; the rearing, breeding and/or selling of PDF's by responsible caring reputable breeders or the haphazrd "I got it free from a dude at the nature center" situation?


No We Won't be Providing Free Equipment..I do not plan to share with Individuals who just walk up and Say I want Frogs. My Plan is to first provide free frogs to other Educational facilities or Wildlife Centers. I plan on an Education Program where children volunteer to help keep up the Exhibits and learn proper husbandry and prove they are dedicated to the Animals then They can get Surplus offspring. If I do open a Supply Business I might Offer Discounts or Scholarship Packages to Educational Members and Families on Supplies

Do Any of you Breeder currently Require anyone who purchases frogs to have Proof they have the required Equipment or Do you just assume That the purchaser already bought the necessary stuff. I have never been asked to provide proof I had a Tank and food ready for any Purchases. Or Do you just take their word on face Value



Blocker Institute said:


> Do yourself a huge favor and lie low and formulate a better idea of what it takes to provide consistent high levels of health and husbandry for your little guys before continuously poking around for antagonists...you will easily find your share here.
> 
> Enjoy your frogs and love them all.
> 
> ...


Look At My Tanks and Stuff..You don't think I have any Idea what It Takes..
Add it Up just estimating what you see in the Pictures...The Universal Backgrounds in 3 Tanks were over 150 Each.
I just Bought 2 Pieces of Cork Bark at 60.00. I bought a Single Sumba Vine at 45.00. I have Spent close to 1000.00 On Wood Alone in the Form of Cork Bark Flats, Tubes, Surreal Vine, Sumba Vines, Lianna Vines, Ghostwood, Manseta, and Grapewood and not even half is currently in Tanks this year alone.

Look at My Tanks..You think I have No Idea what ZooMed and Exo Terra's Cost..I did not get any of Mine Free. Yea I use the Cheaper Single Door ZooMeds Because I do Not use the Fake Crap Exo Includes in their Sets. I prefer the Two Doors. Yea I bought My 40 Gallon Breeders at Petco $1.00 A Gallon Sale for 40.00 But I know I Would have to Pay regular price of 109.00 otherwise. Yea I cut cost as much as Possible on Tanks and Supplies. But I keep over 40 Cultures of Fruit Flies Constantly going. I Have Isopods, I have Springtails..I have Bean Beatles..I have Crickets. I buy fresh fruit for the Geckos. I use UVA/UVB Bulbs along with 6500 K Bulbs. I Run Lights Summer 12-14 Hours a Day and Winter 8 -10 Hours a Day. Plus Air Conditioning..Direct Energy is not nice enough to let me Have Electricity free..Yea I Had a Few Losses..Due to 100+ Heat or Sub Zero Temps during Power Outages..I had Several Geckos Ate by Cats who tore the Screen out of Tanks. I highly Doubt I am the Only person to have losses..even the Experts have done that. I have a Converted Ultrasonic Humidifier..I have Digital Power Bars..I Have An Ultimate Mistking System with Seconds Timer. I have Air Exchangers which use air pumps. I have a Portable 3 Chamber Water Filter system just for The Tanks. I run Several Pumps on Drip Walls. I compost my own soil. I have visited with Froggers Like Beth and Cindy researching frog care and Husbandry Issues for years before I leaped into Frogs. I continue to ask. I Buy my Animals because I want to educate young children and provide a learning experience not because I just want a room full of people.

and You know what I have spent my own money on it all and have never said to Myself...HEY I CAN SELL BABIES TO COVER MY COST TO BUY MORE..I have been asked to buy and Resale Animals but I do not desire to do it. I can sell a $45 Dollar Frog for easily $90 here because Everyone Knows they are Expensive and I would be the only one Selling them. I have Considered selling Supplies because they are not readily available here.

I applaud breeders because If it was not for them people would be decimating the Wild reserves just so people could have Animals..Many just to Brag..HAHA I Paid 1200 for that Dead Fancy Frog. In My Volunteer work I see Animals neglected even by rich people simply because they were the Rage to Own and they had money to throw around. People Like me would not be able have them to show to kids. I know Cindy and Beth and several others still breed the "LOW Value" animals because they still love them for their true Value not just the Monetary Value


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

You know those little monkeys at zoo that throw shit at ya? I can't stand them damn things. 

What? It makes as much sense as the rest of the thread.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

dravenxavier said:


> You're missing a big point here. Brewing beer, painting paintings, working wood...these are all things that you can do intermittently, store in the garage/basement/attic, and require little upkeep or care. They are not frogs. Frogs will reproduce indefinitely, the babies must all be housed in proper social groups (sometimes meaning alone), which all require an indefinite number of proper, permanent setups. Your comparisons have absolutely nothing to do with anything pertaining to the dart frog hobby, or ANY animal-related hobby.


I don't Store My Beer Equipment in a Garage. I have to have Temperature Control for Brewing. I have to have Temperature Control For Propagating Yeast Cells..I brew True Lagers which require 6 to 8 months Refrigerated Fermentation in the 48-52 Range plus a Diactayle Rest at 70-72 Degree range before another another 3rd Stage Fermentation at 48-52 Range for up to another 6 month Before Even thinking of Drinking.

There is a Fine Line Between being a Hobbyist and a Professional in any Hobby..


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Scott Richardson said:


> You know those little monkeys at zoo that throw shit at ya? I can't stand them damn things.
> 
> What? It makes as much sense as the rest of the thread.


Then Don't go to the Zoo


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

jpstod said:


> Then Don't go to the Zoo


Then get to your point!


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

jpstod said:


> No We Won't be Providing Free Equipment..I do not plan to share with Individuals who just walk up and Say I want Frogs. My Plan is to first provide free frogs to other Educational facilities or Wildlife Centers. I plan on an Education Program where children volunteer to help keep up the Exhibits and learn proper husbandry and prove they are dedicated to the Animals then They can get Surplus offspring. If I do open a Supply Business I might Offer Discounts or Scholarship Packages to Educational Members and Families on Supplies
> 
> Do Any of you Breeder currently Require anyone who purchases frogs to have Proof they have the required Equipment or Do you just assume That the purchaser already bought the necessary stuff. I have never been asked to provide proof I had a Tank and food ready for any Purchases. Or Do you just take their word on face Value


That's a very narrow client base to provide frogs to. What happens when they're full, too?

As to the second part, YES, I absolutely must know that these animals are set up properly, or that they are going to someone who is familiar/already keeps these frogs. And this isn't just for frogs, either. I've bred a lot of different things over the years, and whether they are invertebrates, fish, reptiles, or amphibians, they MUST be going to someone who knows what they're getting into, and has an appropriate way to keep them.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

jpstod said:


> I don't Store My Beer Equipment in a Garage. I have to have Temperature Control for Brewing. I have to have Temperature Control For Propagating Yeast Cells..I brew True Lagers which require 6 to 8 months Refrigerated Fermentation in the 48-52 Range plus a Diactayle Rest at 70-72 Degree range before another another 3rd Stage Fermentation at 48-52 Range for up to another 6 month Before Even thinking of Drinking.
> 
> There is a Fine Line Between being a Hobbyist and a Professional in any Hobby..


Also, don't nit pick. You get my point. If you wanted to, you could take all of the beer brewing equipment, and toss it out the door, and it wouldn't matter. You have a responsibility to provide for living animals under your care, or see to it that they are taken care of.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Scott Richardson said:


> Then get to your point!


Your Not Forced to participate in the Discussion


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

dravenxavier said:


> Also, don't nit pick. You get my point. If you wanted to, you could take all of the beer brewing equipment, and toss it out the door, and it wouldn't matter. You have a responsibility to provide for living animals under your care, or see to it that they are taken care of.


It will not matter to you maybe.. but it does to me. I love the hobby.. I love sharing my beer, mead and wine. 

And Froggers can Separate Males and Females and Let their Older Ones die off Naturally without producing offspring or when they get bored sale their collection or give away their collections to another well established frogger not just to any stranger..a frogger chooses to participate in the hobby like a hobbyist chooses their hobby..many become animal hoarders..many become elitist only dealing in the most expensive and look down on the most common lest expensive ones


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Can I interject something here, please? I know, it's that dang Guppygal again. True.

As noted previously, there are very few Texans that are even aware that dart frogs can be kept in captivity without poisoning the owner. There are very few pdf owners in Texas, period. It's not so easy to drive a couple of hrs and be in another state around here, meet up with fellow froggers, learn stuff, trade frogs, things like that. Yeah, it can be a tough hobby to build and I believe that the OP is trying to recruit new hobbyists. Not a bad idea, if you think about it. Personally, I'd like to know more about the OP's idea, if that's what it is.

One other thing, then I'll leave y'all alone a bit. What do frogs require to procreate?
A male, a female, and a body of water. If any one of those is missing, including brom water, odds are that there will be no tads. We're talking 'responsible' hobbyists, not hybridiots who intentionally pull the eggs and so on and so forth.

Or have I missed the boat completely? Well, it wouldn't be the first time ~


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

guppygal said:


> Can I interject something here, please? I know, it's that dang Guppygal again. True.
> 
> As noted previously, there are very few Texans that are even aware that dart frogs can be kept in captivity without poisoning the owner. There are very few pdf owners in Texas, period. It's not so easy to drive a couple of hrs and be in another state around here, meet up with fellow froggers, learn stuff, trade frogs, things like that. Yeah, it can be a tough hobby to build and I believe that the OP is trying to recruit new hobbyists. Not a bad idea, if you think about it. Personally, I'd like to know more about the OP's idea, if that's what it is.
> 
> ...


Part of the reason I asked is about the attitude put forth by some Hobbyist..They automatically assume anyone who has frogs will sell them. They Jump to the Conclusion that A Mixed Tank will produce offspring and they will be sold. they don't inquire anything about the person or the Tank set up...Not even the Question All Males or All Females before bashing someone...

I see people insulted all the Time on the Board. 

No one has attempted to even explain why everyone jumps to the Conclusion that people sell frogs a lot. No One From Maine has said at "X" Show we have "Y" Number of Breeders at Shows. No One From Florida has Said I see "Z" Amount of Ads For Frogs.

I can Tell you that NARBC I Saw 6 People who Had PDFs..None of them Had Hundreds of Frogs to Sale.

I saw 2 people that had PDFS at the Last lone Star Expo that had PDFs..

I have been to Cindy's Home and I did not see her place over Flowing with Tads
I have been to Beth's Home and I did not see Hundreds of Tads either.
At The Frog Meet Beth Hosted No One Had Hundreds of Frogs each to sell
Maybe us Texas are cursed with low Tad Rates where as everyone Else is blessed to over flowing rates.

The only Justification I see is Because basically "I am addicted and because I can not afford my Hobby I have to sell every Tad/Offspring I can produce to get more and so will everyone else"

I got someone who has been a Member since 2010 Advising me to lay low and research what it takes to have PDFs even though I have been a Member since 2005 and Did not buy my first PDF until 2010..5 Years research.before I bought Frogs..I wonder how long they did research..

Ask Cindy and Beth How Much I bugged them with Questions.
Ask Cindy how many times I just walked away with Expensive Wood and did not impulsively buy Frogs just because I wanted them. I could have bought hundreds since 2005.


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## chadfarmer (Nov 2, 2008)

u should know this is how this was going to end up-- these threads are pointless

i want this hobby to go forward not backward


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

chadfarmer said:


> u should know this is how this was going to end up-- these threads are pointless
> 
> i want this hobby to go forward not backward


Why Join in the Discussion then.
The Hobby can not go forward if people can not be civil and open to discussion in a polite manner.

This Do it my way or Do not do it at all attitude is Bad...for any hobby.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

While I don't agree with "bashing" anyone, it appears that that is exactly what you are doing.

I am in this because I love everything about these frogs. They are absolutely beautiful creatures. I also love the whole breeding process...from the courting to the development of the eggs to the tadpole care and morphing. It's a wonderful experience and knowing that you helped make it possible is a wonderful feeling.

Will I sell my froglets? Yes. I know the joy I received when I purchased each of mine. And given the fact that they're not cheap gives a _little _assurance that they will be cared for properly. 

And yes, there is no way I could afford to keep them all if I were to continue to breed. The profits I receive will go right back into acquiring different morphs and caring for them all as they should be cared for. 

So, does this make me a bad person? I guess in your eyes...yes. However, you must have purchased at least _some_ of the frogs you have. I guess they are bad people too...and you supported them.

Also...not everyone (or even most) here is out looking for the most expensive frog and sneering at the rest. Currently, I am a tinc girl. Definitely not the most expensive of the bunch. I'd like to build up my collection of morphs and then, honestly, I was thinking that Auratus would probably be my next venture.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

My understanding of the argument is that it goes like this (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

It's not bad to sell, but selling is not the only option if you breed frogs (donations).
Not everyone is in the hobby to breed their frogs.
People don't _have_ to breed their frogs, they can keep singles, or all males, or all females.

These are the only premises I can find in the argument, and the only conclusions I can derive (based on posts of yours that I've read) are these:

Thus, mixing is okay.

OR

Thus, it's unfair for people to jump down other's throats for mixing.

Does this do justice to the argument?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

WendySHall said:


> I am in this because I love everything about these frogs. They are absolutely beautiful creatures. I also love the whole breeding process...from the courting to the development of the eggs to the tadpole care and morphing. It's a wonderful experience and knowing that you helped make it possible is a wonderful feeling.


[/QUOTE]

Why Am I bashing Anyone..
You have justified why You breed frogs with that statement and I can see it as a reason why others will also 
Your First a For most reason was not about Making Money however you did not answer why You believe someone will automatically sale frogs. 
Do You see an Over Abundance of Breeders selling frogs at Every meet you Go to? 
Do you see a Lot of Local Ads in any Medium selling Frogs? 
Do You have Weekly Frog Meets with a lot of People selling Frogs?
Do You See Breeders with Hundreds of Frogs to sale at Every Meet?
Does Every Corner in your Town Have a Local Owned Petshop and Every One of them Offer PDFs?




WendySHall said:


> So, does this make me a bad person? I guess in your eyes...yes. However, you must have purchased at least _some_ of the frogs you have. I guess they are bad people too...and you supported them.


You Guessed Wrong and Made the Wrong assumption 
Again I want you to post where I have Said anyone selling Frogs is Wrong in doing So..I have said And I will Say Again I support those who do..Honestly I have never meet a Breeder who is totally into it for the Money. I have meet Wholesalers who are but not Breeders

Again I say Ask Cindy and Beth How Much I ask them Questions...They Never asked me about what I would do with offspring They never assumed I will produce Offspring..if It was up to me I would have just bought a Single frog at a time. My Primary purpose is to have Educational Displays for Children at Multiple locations like Classrooms not a Zoo Like Setting originally. They Never pressed me to buy pairs so I could produce offspring. They promoted Behavior and the benefits of Producing Offspring for a truely all around benefit to education..Males Calling..The Tads Developing...Caring Behavior for the Young by the Parents...
Never Have they Said YOU CAN SELL The Bountiful Offsprings they will produce 

I have Never Demanded a Frogger to give away their Offspring I have just Suggested an Alternative to just selling them.. I am Certainly Open to taking Free Donations. I understand Higher prices for Adults because I understand the Cost of Making sure they reach Adulthood.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

SmackoftheGods said:


> My understanding of the argument is that it goes like this (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):
> 
> It's not bad to sell, but selling is not the only option if you breed frogs (donations).
> Not everyone is in the hobby to breed their frogs.
> ...


Correct on Alternatives to selling or Preventing Offsprings 
Under Certain Circumstance Mixing can be done...
Myself I enjoy the Displays as Much as The Frogs..
I can see 3 Males of Different Species who CoExsist in a Single Tank Vs 3 Single Males in 3 Smaller Tanks

Not the Rabid >>>> HE/SHE IS GOING TO SELL HYBRIDS WITCH HUNT THAT HAPPENS and Should not be automatically assumed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Why Am I bashing Anyone..
That's how it comes across to me. You've made several comments/insinuations that people who assume you will sell froglets and breeders who sell are bad. Here is the latest comment...
"The only Justification I see is Because basically "I am addicted and because I can not afford my Hobby I have to sell every Tad/Offspring I can produce to get more and so will everyone else""
 
Your First a For most reason was not about Making Money however you did not answer why You believe someone will automatically sale frogs. 
Post #59...I stated why this could be considered a natural assumption. I never stated that "I" automatically assume that everyone sells frogs though.

 Do You see an Over Abundance of Breeders selling frogs at Every meet you Go to? No
Do you see a Lot of Local Ads in any Medium selling Frogs? No
Do You have Weekly Frog Meets with a lot of People selling Frogs?No
Do You See Breeders with Hundreds of Frogs to sale at Every Meet?No
Does Every Corner in your Town Have a Local Owned Petshop and Every One of them Offer PDFs?No
Unfortunately, I live in a small town surrounded by small towns. I'm not fortunate enough to have anything like that close to me. I have to travel a couple of hours (one way) to get to the nearest frogger. I've only been lucky enough to see the collection of one other frogger. Big one too! 
Otherwise...the only live darts I get to see are my own.

You Guessed Wrong and Made the Wrong assumption  
Again I want you to post where I have Said anyone selling Frogs is Wrong in doing So..I have said And I will Say Again I support those who do..Honestly I have never meet a Breeder who is totally into it for the Money. I have meet Wholesalers who are but not Breeders
If I made the wrong assumption, I apologize. That is the impression that I have been getting though.

Again I say Ask Cindy and Beth How Much I ask them Questions...They Never asked me about what I would do with offspring They never assumed I will produce Offspring
No one has ever asked me either...so why do you imply that everyone here is trying to force everyone else to sell their froglets or require them to breed?

..if It was up to me I would have just bought a Single frog at a time. 
Then...who made you do otherwise?

My Primary purpose is to have Educational Displays for Children at Multiple locations like Classrooms not a Zoo Like Setting originally.
I absolutely commend you for this. If you can afford to produce frogs and carry out something such as this, I think it's absolutely awesome.

They Never pressed me to buy pairs so I could produce offspring. 
Again...I've not had this from any of the people I've purchased from either.

They promoted Behavior and the benefits of Producing Offspring for a truely all around benefit to education..Males Calling..The Tads Developing...Caring Behavior for the Young by the Parents... 
It seems to me they are responsible caring breeders...like many of the others here.

Never Have they Said YOU CAN SELL The Bountiful Offsprings they will produce 
Again...has never happened to me.

I have Never Demanded a Frogger to give away their Offspring I have just Suggested an Alternative to just selling them.. 
The alternatives that you suggested are absolutely great ideas...no doubt about it. However, many of your posts have a terrible attitude. I think people would be more "welcoming" if you'd worded things a little differently.

I am Certainly Open to taking Free Donations.
I'd much prefer to sell froglets that I worked hard caring for than take free donations.

 I understand Higher prices for Adults because I understand the Cost of Making sure they reach Adulthood.
Agreed.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Also, just wanted to quickly address this...

Not the Rabid >>>> HE/SHE IS GOING TO SELL HYBRIDS WITCH HUNT THAT HAPPENS and Should not be automatically assumed 

I actually believe that you're not doing that and that the enclosure you've created is because you care for the frogs. While I'm not a mixing expert and am nowhere near even thinking of such a thing...I can understand not wanting to get rid of frogs that you've had under your wing for a while.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Anyone else choke on thier popcorn while watching this thread thrash around in it's various spasms of going no-where fast??


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I just don't understand why sometimes people come on here with a negative attitude and a chip on their shoulder. What's the point if we're all just bad people?

I, for one, love this site and am reading/learning things constantly. I just wished everyone would realize that we're all here because we love the frogs. Hating on each other is not going to get us anywhere.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The thing that surprised me was that there was a lot of beef over mixing/potential hybrids... and no one picked up on the comment about artificial selection of frogs... that is just as big a concern to the long-term welfare of the hobby as making "designer" frogs.. 

And as with many other threads of a similar ilk it has thrashed around in various spasm...


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Ed said:


> Anyone else choke on thier popcorn while watching this thread thrash around in it's various spasms of going no-where fast??


I was out of popcorn after the 1st page


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I actually believe that she's not creating hybrids...so I pretty much left that alone.

And I see your point about what we are doing to our frogs if we tank raise. It's not only hurting the froglets...but the breeders as well. Thanks, Ed...I'm smart...but nowhere on your scientific level. I never would've thought of those issues.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Ed said:


> Anyone else choke on thier popcorn while watching this thread thrash around in it's various spasms of going no-where fast??


Every time I try to read one of the OP's posts my brain takes a nap  I still don't understand.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

This thread so far:

Opinions Stated - 51
Opinions Misunderstood - 47
Opinions Restated - 45
Incorrect Impressions - 40
Aggressive Insinuations - 62
Statements Repeated - 122
Feelings hurt - 4
Minds Changed - 0
Popcorn Boxes Eaten - 22

Other that not being able to figure out what I'm supposed to be mad about, do you see anything I missed?


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Can we please capitalize sentences normally? It's like reading some 17th century text...

"Everyone" assumes that people are going to sell offspring because the overwhelming majority of hobbyists do. It's a safe assumption, and it's that simple.

"Everyone" assumes that most people in this country have gone to some kind of school, because the overwhelming majority have. The fact that some have not doesn't invalidate the general utility of the assumption.


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

Maybe I missed it, but "who" is doing all this assuming? And so what? It's a reasonable assumption. Happy frogs get it on and rearing offspring is fun and rewarding, so it's not surprising many do it. Do you have people beating down your door, demanding you sell offspring because that's how it works? *scratches head*


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

I'm still pretty sure this is a thinly veiled thread on mixing.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

And why do Froggers always assume that someone with a booger on their finger is gonna eat it?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

edwardsatc said:


> Hopeless Sounds like you're trying to justify mixed tanks by saying you won't sell offspring.





VicSkimmr said:


> I'm still pretty sure this is a thinly veiled thread on mixing.


Yeee Hawww! I called it on the 5th post! 80% of this thread is the OP squirming around trying to prove it's not, while he digs himself deeper and deeper. You have to love some of the facts he pulls out of thin air. 1000 and 10,000 PDF vendors at a single show?? Man, I want to be at that show!


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

VicSkimmr said:


> I'm still pretty sure this is a thinly veiled thread on mixing.


I figured wither this was some way to guilt everyone into donating frogs to his 'Education Center', or he was trying to convince himself that giving away hybrids was okay, so long as you don't sell them.

Neither of those conclusions really make sense though, so I'm going with 'He likes to argue about things on the internet'.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Yeee Hawww! I called it on the 5th post! 80% of this thread is the OP squirming around trying to prove it's not, while he digs himself deeper and deeper. You have to love some of the facts he pulls out of thin air. 1000 and 10,000 PDF vendors at a single show?? Man, I want to be at that show!


I never stated those number were facts..I gave those as Examples as why someone could possibly believe that everyone will sell frogs.

For Me when I go to a Show and I see only 2 Vendors selling frogs and there is suppose to be a LOT of Texas Frogs I do not see that it is easy to assume Everyone who has Frogs is selling Offsprings. 

However if I went to a Show and I saw 20 0r 30 Texas Froggers selling Offspring I would concede that maybe every frogger does in deed sell offspring.

Choke on your Pop Corn

No One has given any valid reason to say that it can safely be assumed that Froggers will sell offspring other than addiction and the need to recover cost associated with frogs.

If you feel the thread is not worth your time simply do not reply,


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Scott Richardson said:


> And why do Froggers always assume that someone with a booger on their finger is gonna eat it?


Experience and some basic human understanding...which is also my answer to the original query.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Atmus said:


> I figured wither this was some way to guilt everyone into donating frogs to his 'Education Center', or he was trying to convince himself that giving away hybrids was okay, so long as you don't sell them.
> 
> Neither of those conclusions really make sense though, so I'm going with 'He likes to argue about things on the internet'.


Wrong Assumptions
I will never ask anyone for Donations of Frogs..
And Personally I do not Believe in Any Designer Animal...DOG CAT GOAT PIG or FROG..Especially for pure profit

I simply asked a Question that No one can Seem to Answer other than with personal Opinions and act elitist about


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Honestly, I'm genuinely curious, what is the deal with the capitalization?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

npaull said:


> Honestly, I'm genuinely curious, what is the deal with the capitalization?


It is Just the Way i like to post...Is the a law requiring we type a certain way also.
or Should I worry about the Capitalization Police also?


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

jpstod said:


> Wrong Assumptions
> I will never ask anyone for Donations of Frogs..
> And Personally I do not Believe in Any Designer Animal...DOG CAT GOAT PIG or FROG..Especially for pure profit
> 
> I simply asked a Question that No one can Seem to Answer other than with personal Opinions and act elitist about


No one can answer the question you posed in your title. You are assuming that everyone else in the hobby is making this assumption, but you're wrong. I am a "frogger" and do not make this assumption. However, that's not to say it's not a reasonable assumption based on how prevalent the practice is. You can't base the # of vendors at a particular show as any kind of indication, due to a variety of reasons. Vending is more for the folks who are in the business of breeding and/or husbandry. Texas is a big state, maybe they're more spread out or perhaps vending and shows aren't as popular in that area? Perhaps you could see if there are any local herp groups. 

Here's a good reason for selling offspring - a person genuinely enjoys the practice of breeding and raising animals. They might not have the room to keep said offspring and who doesn't like a bit of money? They're not looking to "feed the addiction" or recuperate money but times are tough. They could be putting that bit of cash in their kids college fund. No different than charging for clippings. It's like an added perk, but the cash flow isn't the reason for the breeding and selling.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

jpstod said:


> I am just curious Why does everyone assume that anyone who has Frogs will raise and Sell Offspring?


Honestly, I assume this because it's what just about everyone else I know (including myself) does, and what else would you do? I mean, how many offspring (of the 100's that most frogs produce) can you keep with limited space, time, food, and money? I don't see why you wouldn't raise up a group and keep a pair as "assurance" if you want, but I don't need or want 30 pairs held back from my breeding leuc group. Sure, donate some to friends/ new people/ institutions if you want, but why wouldn't you ask for a small amount back considering all of the money and time it takes to just raise them and feed them to a sale-able size?
As far as mixing goes- it does not matter if hybrids are sold, traded, given away, you pay the customer to keep them, whatever- they still get out into the hobby and can be confused/ mixed with pure lines and set a bad example showing people that this hobby supports hybridizing and such, which it clearly does not! So I don't understand your counter-arguments that alternatives to selling would be donating, because hybrids would still be unleashed. 
If you want to mix, they are your frogs; I can't control what you do and I won't break into your house to separate them, but I do not support it! If they produce hybrids or crossbreeds, whether you encourage it or not, again I don't like it but what can I do? I will not support you probably, but that's about all I can do. However, if you allow or intentionally breed hundreds of hybrids- I don't care who you are- I can't say I would trust you to keep them out of the hobby for their entire natural lives, especially when you get sick of making hundreds of cultures to feed them all and spend hours maintaining them, let alone trying to enjoy them.
Bryan


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Since this thread has gone all over the place anyway.

Where was it was that Ed said it was harmful to tank raise frogs? 

Sally



WendySHall said:


> And I see your point about what we are doing to our frogs if we tank raise. It's not only hurting the froglets...but the breeders as well. Thanks, Ed...I'm smart...but nowhere on your scientific level. I never would've thought of those issues.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

jpstod said:


> It is Just the Way i like to post...Is the a law requiring we type a certain way also.
> or Should I worry about the Capitalization Police also?


wow, you just woke up on the wrong side of your soap box today didnt you?? HiS PoInT iS ItS jUsT KiNd Of AnNoyInG tO rEaD tHis.


i dont get what this thread is about at all. all i know is ive seen people sell frogs, give frogs away, sell them for considerably less than they are worth, and trade them. i dont assume someone is selling frogs, but more than likely they are. i dont assume someone over 16 has driven a car, but they probably have, and i dont assume someone watches TV but more than likely they do....get it?

nobody on this site is saying any excess frogs people breed, have to be sold.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

srrrio said:


> Since this thread has gone all over the place anyway.
> 
> Where was it was that Ed said it was harmful to tank raise frogs?
> 
> Sally


 
Hmm.. maybe I mistook this thread for another one that is thrashing around as well.... my apologies I made a mistake. 

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Ed said:


> Hmm.. maybe I mistook this thread for another one that is thrashing around as well.... my apologies I made a mistake.
> 
> Ed


No, I was thinking that perhaps Wendy misinterpreted a post of yours related to selective breeding earlier in this thread.

Sally


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

jpstod said:


> I simply asked a Question that No one can Seem to Answer other than with personal Opinions and act elitist about


Your question started with the word "why" and pertains to the reasoning of an un-named hypothetical typical frogger, so maybe you should expect a few personal opinions in the answers. I honestly can't figure out what point you are arguing.

Also, are you aware that you are complaining about the assumed generalization of a group, while your initial question was an ASSUMED GENERALIZATION ABOUT A GROUP?*

*Capitalization for emphasis...not anger, volume, or random quirkiness.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

With so many asking what this thread is really about, I believe it is about superiority. The OP is asserting that some people... are simply superior to the rest of us.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

This has got to be the worst thread ever.Why I'm compelled to follow it I'll never know. I thought tony answered the question with the second post.


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

I have no idea why I continue to click on this thread...


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

srrrio said:


> Since this thread has gone all over the place anyway.
> 
> Where was it was that Ed said it was harmful to tank raise frogs?
> 
> Sally


Actually, I think I did misinterpret it...forgive me, it was really late last night and I think I may have been simply too tired and confused by reading everything the OP wrote. 

I went to bed and continued to think about his post and believe that his response actually would pertain to any way we raise them, in tank or in cups. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

His post was in response to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by *jpstod*  
_Another attitude I have seen on here and another PDF board is that people who allow the frogs to rear their offspring are treating them cruelly because they allow nature to run its course. Is the real reason that people advocate not allowing Nature to take it's course is to maximize the profits from your breeders?_

Here was what he posted (Post #10):


Ed said:


> This actually isn't letting "nature take it's course" as it is an artificial system and often the results are a result of the husbandry used to care for the animals... for example, in non-phytotelmata depositing species, the space available for the tadpoles is often much smaller than that found in the wild, and the fat reserves and heavy feedings with the reduced energy out due to the smaller space allows for a faster production of a second, third and fourth clutch which further impacts the available space. While tadpoles are known to be cannibalistic, this is often a result of insufficient protein in the deposition sites in the wild and cannibalism can reduced or totally circumvented by feeding the tadpoles a diet high in animal protein..
> 
> In phytotelmata depositing species, it has been shown that increasing the deposition sites increases the population density (with possibly ventrimaculatus as an exception due to social parasitism) as there is less competition for deposition sites but again, due to the husbandry practices, we see a surplus of animals produced versus available deposition sites. Again, in the non-obligate egg feeders, we see lack of protein as a cause for cannibalism....
> 
> So you can't argue that "nature" took it's course.... as frogs are usually kept in systems that encourage unnatural breeding cycles, are fed to excess (obese frogs) to enable unnatural breeding cycles and often are unaturally deficient in one or more nutrients due to the supplements....


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

jpstod said:


> I never stated those number were facts..I gave those as Examples as why someone could possibly believe that everyone will sell frogs.
> 
> For Me when I go to a Show and I see only 2 Vendors selling frogs and there is suppose to be a LOT of Texas Frogs I do not see that it is easy to assume Everyone who has Frogs is selling Offsprings.
> 
> ...



Maybe I'm missing something because it's late and I'm tired...

but...

You start off by complaining that everyone sells their frogs, and then follow it up with not only complaining that there aren't enough people selling their frogs, but pretty much stating that they don't?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Actually, I think I did misinterpret it...forgive me, it was really late last night and I think I may have been simply too tired and confused by reading everything the OP wrote.
> :


I did make a comment in another thread.. the 150 gallon tank thread. 

Ed


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

I have read a lot of this, and have decided to give a simple answer to the question "Why do Froggers Always Assume Someone Has Frogs will Sell offspring ?". They don't, that is just your perception of things, and from the nature of your replies here I would respectfully suggest that your negative perception of this community as a whole is skewing your perception.

Just because somebody might at some point ask you if you have any for sale does not mean that they expect you to do so. It just means that they are asking just in case you have.

It's entirely up to the individual whether they chose to breed their frogs, and sell any subsequent offspring (or even give them away). I've never seen anybody on here say otherwise, all I have seen is folks defending their right to chose to do so.

Regards

Ade


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

jpstod said:


> Wrong Assumptions
> I will never ask anyone for Donations of Frogs..


Really? Huh.



jpstod said:


> I am Certainly Open to taking Free Donations.


Okay, well when you complain about people selling frogs and then offer only the one alternative, and you appear to have a personal stake in that alternative, what do you expect?



jpstod said:


> And Personally I do not Believe in Any Designer Animal...DOG CAT GOAT PIG or FROG..Especially for pure profit


Nothing anyone in this thread has said has lead me to believe they are selling frogs purely for profit. The closest thing to that is that they are trying to recoup some costs associated with their hobby, or that they 'might as well, since they can'. I'm sure I could donate my aluminum cans to the recyclers, but as long as one place pays for them, why shouldn't I sell the cans to them?



jpstod said:


> I simply asked a Question that No one can Seem to Answer other than with personal Opinions and act elitist about


You yourself have been alternating between acting elitist or acting like a victim this entire thread. Complaining that the answers you get aren't the ones you want is just silly.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Atmus said:


> Really? Huh.


Yea Really...
Saying I am open to Donations is not the same as Saying...Dear Dendrobroard Members I am Asking you to please Give me your Frogs for Free. 

I will not say NO if someone privately contacted me and Said..."hey it is a Good Cause your doing and I got a Frog or Frogs for you too Use..would you like them for Free."

I am Not an elitist because I do not believe my way is the Only correct view..This Hobby is no different than any other hobby. You do not have to sale anything and as with any pet owner you never have to breed any offspring. I do not belittle anyone with a view that match mine.


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

Well heck, if that's the case...


I am open to donations, fellow froggers. Particularly leucs and thumbnails.


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

jpstod said:


> Yea Really...
> Saying I am open to Donations is not the same as Saying...Dear Dendrobroard Members I am Asking you to please Give me your Frogs for Free.
> 
> I will not say NO if someone privately contacted me and Said..."hey it is a Good Cause your doing and I got a Frog or Frogs for you too Use..would you like them for Free."


Except that isn't what you've been doing. You've been complaining that people DO sell frogs, with the implication that that is somehow 'wrong' or at least selfish, while suggesting an alternative that potentially benefits you directly.



jpstod said:


> I am Not an elitist because I do not believe my way is the Only correct view..This Hobby is no different than any other hobby. You do not have to sale anything and as with any pet owner you never have to breed any offspring. I do not belittle anyone with a view that match mine.


To be fair, I didn't say you were an elitist, just that you were coming off as one.

Before you posted this thread, did you take the time to consider that maybe people assume that froggers will sell their offspring not out of mercenarial motivations, but because it is the common, accepted practice? That it is in fact easier to put up a 'Buy my frogs' ad and follow through with it than it is to find a well run 'Education Center', or even a responsible classroom setting to donate them to?

If the froggers in question does his job right, the frogs will reproduce (assuming a grouping that is capable of reproduction). The frogger will then need to dispose of the surplus offspring.

Assuming the frogger cares about said offspring, the frogger would want them to go to someone who will also care about them. The simplest way to ensure that is to make the frogs an investment for the buyer, buy charging him goods or services for them. Modern society has made the exchange of goods and services easier via the use of currency. The frogger that is selling the frogs might have no actual monetary value for them, and is attaching an arbitrary price that may not reflect the frogger's total investment in the offspring, but by making them cost something, most of the irresponsible people won't even bother, which makes it easier on the seller.

Admittedly, I've yet to produce froglets. Assuming I ever do, I would be sending them along to people willing to pay for them and treat them correctly, rather than to a classroom that will fluctuate in responsibility and competence at least yearly, or to an organization that has no real investment in any individual frog since they can get free replacements.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

I never complained that people were selling Frogs...I never said it was wrong to sell frogs..I have said I purchase my frogs.

I just said that there is Alternatives to selling frogs..I have no asked for free frogs

Apparently it is ok to assume someone will sell frogs but it not ok to assume that people will assume people will sell frogs.

The general opinion appears to be people sell frogs so therefore everyone else will, so we will just jump on them automatically from the start without asking if they produce offspring first. And then we will attack anyone who asks questions about people selling says hey you don't have to sell frogs.

I never said everyone sells frogs purely for a profit and I have posted that I have never meet a Breeder that does. but hey lets ignore that and just poke and prod claiming all kinds of things...eventual we will just run off someone else, but who cares.


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

jpstod said:


> The general opinion appears to be people sell frogs so therefore everyone else will, so we will just jump on them automatically from the start without asking if they produce offspring first. And then we will attack anyone who asks questions about people selling says hey you don't have to sell frogs.


Who gets jumped on? The only time that really happens is when the person is doing something that is frowned upon, like mixing. otherwise I'm not seeing how this assumption could be negative. There are worse stereotypes/assumptions. 

I guess if someone has a rare pair, they might get harassed to sell the offspring lol That might get annoying


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

jpstod said:


> lets ignore that and just poke and prod claiming all kinds of things...eventual we will just run off someone else, but who cares.


your the only one claiming all kinds of things. your also the only one who would be run off by us disagreeing with you. and since you almost never posted until this thread.....which isnt bringing much to the table....


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Atmus said:


> Assuming the frogger cares about said offspring, the frogger would want them to go to someone who will also care about them. The simplest way to ensure that is to make the frogs an investment for the buyer, buy charging him goods or services for them. Modern society has made the exchange of goods and services easier via the use of currency. The frogger that is selling the frogs might have no actual monetary value for them, and is attaching an arbitrary price that may not reflect the frogger's total investment in the offspring, but by making them cost something, most of the irresponsible people won't even bother, which makes it easier on the seller.


This is actually pretty true. Like most froggers I have given away many frogs to friends and family, and I have sold a good amount of frogs as well. On the whole, I'm usually pretty disappointed with how well the "give-aways" are treated. It just seems to be human nature to not put a high value on something for which there was no cost. Also, people that ask for a free frog are often the type of people that are too cheap to buy a frog. If someone is too cheap to buy a frog they are probably too cheap to maintain frogs.

Just some experiences.



jpstod said:


> Apparently it is ok to assume someone will sell frogs but it not ok to assume that people will assume people will sell frogs.


I've read this statement 3 times and I still don't know what it means.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

jpstod said:


> The general opinion appears to be people sell frogs so therefore everyone else will


Uhmm dude, we live in a society who's economic foundation is based on capitalism and free enterprise. What are expecting...?


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

you know what this post needs

In the face


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

Boondoggle said:


> This is actually pretty true. Like most froggers I have given away many frogs to friends and family, and I have sold a good amount of frogs as well. On the whole, I'm usually pretty disappointed with how well the "give-aways" are treated. It just seems to be human nature to not put a high value on something for which there was no cost. Also, people that ask for a free frog are often the type of people that are too cheap to buy a frog. If someone is too cheap to buy a frog they are probably too cheap to maintain frogs.
> 
> Just some experiences.


Unfortunately it takes a fairly well developed individual to receive something absolutely free, and still value it the same as if they had to pay for it. This 'skill' isn't necessary to function in most modern societies, any more than the ability to eat rotting fish, so it generally goes undeveloped. 
Interestingly enough, the natives of what is now known as Alaska and Northwestern Canada are reported to have had both these abilities.



Boondoggle said:


> I've read this statement 3 times and I still don't know what it means.


He's complaining that the assumption that people will sell frogs is okay, but that assuming people will assume that other people will sell frogs is wrong.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I eat all my baby frogs. Ah, delicious baby frog meat!

Richard.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

AHHHHH, HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Why have I not seen this on Tosh.0? Just awesome!

Thanks for this, Richard.



PantMan said:


> you know what this post needs
> 
> In the face
> YouTube - ‪Watermelon Launch‬‏


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> AHHHHH, HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
> 
> Why have I not seen this on Tosh.0? Just awesome!
> 
> Thanks for this, Richard.


It's from The Amazing Race or some such show, and Tosh.0 can't afford the rights to it.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

They don't call it the amazing race for nothing. lolololol!


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Atmus said:


> It's from The Amazing Race or some such show, and Tosh.0 can't afford the rights to it.


Not true, I've definitely seen it on Tosh.0

Edit: or at least I'm pretty sure I did.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Boondoggle said:


> I've read this statement 3 times and I still don't know what it means.


Very Simple..Most Forum Members find It is perfectly acceptable to jump all over someone because it is ok to assume they will sell frogs but your not allowed to jump all over someone because they assume someone is going to sell frogs without proof.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Woodsman said:


> I eat all my baby frogs. Ah, delicious baby frog meat!
> 
> Richard.


Frog Legs are delicious...but you better charge yourself for them otherwise your giving them away and that is unacceptable


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

"Most Forum Members find It is perfectly acceptable to jump all over someone because it is ok to assume they will sell frogs..."

Actually this whole thing started not because of the assumption that frogs would be sold, but that hybrid frogs would be sold. This is an understandable fear of most of the members here...but "jumping all over someone" when there are no facts to imply otherwise, can make you look a little foolish and hot-headed in the end.

"...but your not allowed to jump all over someone because they assume someone is going to sell frogs without proof."

When it comes to starting a thread (about something that has nothing to do with you) and that goes on for a few days (with you contradicting yourself at every twist and turn to prove a point that also at times seems to change)...tends to make you look like an a** who just likes to argue.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

nawth21 said:


> .
> 
> I guess if someone has a rare pair, they might get harassed to sell the offspring lol That might get annoying


Maybe this is only my perspective, by if someone has a rare pair of frogs I'd kinda hope they're breeding and selling the offspring to spread that type out and keep it in the hobby. Not that I'd ever harass someone into doing so though


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Maybe this is only my perspective, by if someone has a rare pair of frogs I'd kinda hope they're breeding and selling the offspring to spread that type out and keep it in the hobby. Not that I'd ever harass someone into doing so though


I'm sure most would  I'm being tongue in cheek more than anything. I'm picturing an angry mob demanding the sale of frogs lol 

Because let's be honest, the only reason ppl would jump down ones throat is because they're acting irresponsibly. There's no other reason to complain about the assumption OP stated in the title. it's a widespread assumption because it's a widespread practice.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

WendySHall said:


> "Most Forum Members find It is perfectly acceptable to jump all over someone because it is ok to assume they will sell frogs..."
> 
> 
> Actually this whole thing started not because of the assumption that frogs would be sold, but that hybrid frogs would be sold. This is an understandable fear of most of the members here...but "jumping all over someone" when there are no facts to imply otherwise, can make you look a little foolish and hot-headed in the end.


And where are the facts to imply otherwise other than a 'understandable fear' when someone posts a picture or video of a mixed tank? 

There is none..other than someones "understandable fear" on the assumption that everyone or the vast Majority of People sell frogs because they need money to support their hobby.

I asked people to prove that there is an abundance of Hobbyist selling frogs by the Hundreds and No can or will.

When I asked for Examples and I said hey give me some facts such as this...people said I was using those examples as Facts and I was not.

Do I support breeders over wholesalers Yes I do, contrary to what people have implied.
Do I support someone out there selling Designer frogs or any animal..No I do Not
Do I support a Breeder for profit over a Breeder Hobbyist. No, If I knew for a fact that a Breeder was just pumping out frogs for a pure profit I would not choose them over a breeder who provides a more natural tank and uses proper husbandry. I would pick the one who supports their hobby with sales. I picked Breeders who are Hobbyist and have taken the time help me and others understand things not the Guy selling the Cheapest frogs at every show and throws in a couple of freebies to entice me away from the Hobbyist Breeder.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

nawth21 said:


> it's a widespread assumption because it's a widespread practice.


Prove it..Show me evidence


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## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

A small FYI: 
About vending at a show.

I have not sold pdf's at a show, even so I can offer a possible explanation for limited numbers of PDF vendors at various shows. From personal experience: cost.

Our family exotic animal business is predominately an online business. We mostly sell tarantulas. 

Online we have low overhead. No so at a show. Booth space can run as low as $85 or up to $500 depending on the show. If the show isn't close to home, travel costs including hotel need to be considered. The more animals and any other "product" on sale, the more space we need. Most hobbyists aren't in a position to sell this way.


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

jpstod said:


> Prove it..Show me evidence


All of the classifieds here, on other sites and in regional groups. Take a freaking poll on this board and extrapolate the results. Shows and vending are different. Those are for breeders and folks who are in the business.

And I'm not talk in about people selling frogs by the hundreds? Where did that even come from? I'm speaking about the practice of selling offspring that is the result of keeping frogs in an environment that is conducive to breeding; not those that intentionally breed for profit.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Well...here is my experience so far (just started breeding)...
In less than a month (27 days) I now have exactly 20 tads from 3 pairs. Keep in mind that 2 of these pairs are brand new to breeding.
From 1 pair of new breeders, I've only gotten 2 tads in this month.
The 8 tads (so far) from the 2nd new pair just started coming on the 23rd of May.
The 3rd pair gave me 9 tads before taking a (so far) 2 1/2 week break (I think because I pulled a bunch of plants from their tank.)

So...that's 20 tads in less than a month.
Now times that by 12...that would be 240 in a year.
Now consider the increase when they become seasoned breeders (and I'm not disrupting their tank).
Now consider the fact that I have 3 other pairs that I'm waiting to start breeding.

After a while...it adds up.

Also, you may want to look here... Frog Classifieds - Dendroboard . If you add up some of the ads there are quite a few sales going on. It's not an unusual thing...and not the only place that darts are sold by hobbyists.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

WendySHall said:


> Also, you may want to look here... Frog Classifieds - Dendroboard . If you add up some of the ads there are quite a few sales going on. It's not an unusual thing...and not the only place that darts are sold by hobbyists.


And How Many of these are known Hybrid Breeders?
How Many of these are posted by the Same Breeders?
Can we assume that some of these breeders have mixed tanks and are selling Hybrids and will not admit it?

Or instead of assuming would you require proof of such accusations?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

jpstod said:


> There is none..other than someones "understandable fear" on the assumption that everyone or the vast Majority of People sell frogs because they need money to support their hobby.


where was i for this fear of people selling frogs to support their hobby? who on here is afraid of that.



jpstod said:


> Prove it..Show me evidence


im fairly certain if you looked just a bit you could find evidence of people selling hundreds of frogs. i can think of several people that probably do it every year. and why is this even a topic??



jpstod said:


> And How Many of these are known Hybrid Breeders?
> How Many of these are posted by the Same Breeders?
> Can we assume that some of these breeders have mixed tanks and are selling Hybrids and will not admit it?
> 
> Or instead of assuming would you require proof of such accusations?


i would say you lost me, but i never got it anyway...


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Here is one piss poor assumption after reading 14 pages that this thread would have gotten to the point and died....My fault.


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## Blocker Institute (Apr 19, 2010)

ok, SERIOUSLY. This post has become as pointless as this uneducated, miss spelling (your for you're about 20 times) as the individual that started it. Just like a train wreck, can't turn away tho. 

All of us that are truly into frogging understand what and why we do it. Unfortunately, we initially got caught up in an attempt to nicely explain to the challenged, the answer to his question. After the third or fourth unintelligent retaliation from the person, we should pull the 'chute...always.

BTW, the watermelon video it the funnniest damn thing I've seen in awhile

"I can't feel my face"....hahahahaha


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Blocker Institute said:


> ok, SERIOUSLY. This post has become as pointless as this uneducated, miss spelling (your for you're about 20 times) as the individual that started it. Just like a train wreck, can't turn away tho.
> 
> All of us that are truly into frogging understand what and why we do it. Unfortunately, we initially got caught up in an attempt to nicely explain to the challenged, the answer to his question. After the third or fourth unintelligent retaliation from the person, we should pull the 'chute...always.
> 
> ...


You were Never Forced to participate.
Thank you for your enlightening contribution to the discussion
If you would like you may place the silver spoon back into your mouth and go back to walking the Ivy League Halls.

No one attempted to explain with facts why they assumed the worst about someone..they just tried to justify why as one frogger posted an Unreasonable fear.

If you are going to lecture me on proper English Post a Copy of Your College Degree otherwise your welcome to stick it.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Azurel said:


> Here is one piss poor assumption after reading 14 pages that this thread would have gotten to the point and died....My fault.


your correct it is your fault you read it


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

jpstod said:


> Very Simple..Most Forum Members find It is perfectly acceptable to jump all over someone because it is ok to assume they will sell frogs but your not allowed to jump all over someone because they assume someone is going to sell frogs without proof.


This is the opposite of "very simple," but I think I have it figured out. See translation below.



jpstod said:


> Very simple... most forum members feel that it is perfectly acceptable to jump all over another member who has a mixed tank because they assume they will sell hybrid frogs, but apparently it is not acceptable jump all over someone because they made that assumption even though they offer no proof.


In other words, he's upset that everyone assumes that just because a mixed tank can produce hybrids that the hybrids will eventually end up being sold, and he thinks that we're getting mad at him for getting mad at everyone who brings up that argument.


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## Blocker Institute (Apr 19, 2010)

jpstod said:


> You were Never Forced to participate.
> Thank you for your enlightening contribution to the discussion
> If you would like you may place the silver spoon back into your mouth and go back to walking the Ivy League Halls.
> 
> ...


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Blocker Institute said:


> "I can't feel my face"....hahahahaha


Unfortunately, my attempt to hijack this thread and turn it into something useful has failed.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

VicSkimmr said:


> In other words, he's upset that everyone assumes that just because a mixed tank can produce hybrids that the hybrids will eventually end up being sold, and he thinks that we're getting mad at him for getting mad at everyone who brings up that argument.



You surely must have gone through some work for that one! But yes, this is how I see the argument here, as well.

The only problem is that the OP's alternatives of donation and giving frogs away do nothing to solve the original problem. Probably even worse than selling the hybrids is giving them away. They would be far more likely to go to an irresponsible party who will care nothing about the true identification of the hybrid, any offspring that may come of it, or diligently pass on the information if it were to change hands again. The bottom line is that any hybrid produced, as far as I'm concerned, should not leave that breeder's house, period. If allowed to live at all.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

VicSkimmr said:


> In other words, he's upset that everyone assumes that just because a mixed tank can produce hybrids that the hybrids will eventually end up being sold, and he thinks that we're getting mad at him for getting mad at everyone who brings up that argument.



How about we change the assumption from "sell" to "distribute"? With the obvious exception of single sex vivs or lone frogs, healthy frogs breed and most of them are fairly prolific. We all have a certain limit on available space, meaning that once the frogs produce too many offspring for the owner to house they have to go _somewhere_. I can't cite any statistics, but I think it is a pretty safe assumption that most hobbyists will choose to distribute (sell, donate, trade, give away...) their offspring rather than cull them. 

That provides a pretty solid foundation for concern over the possibility of someone's "mad science" project being introduced to the hobby through one channel or another. Objections?


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just proud of myself for finally figuring out what he's arguing for.

It's the little things in life, lol.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

Another nice and to the point from me, a message to the OP.

You have demanded that folks prove that 100s of froggers sell their excess offspring (or words of this nature)(proof you could quite easily find for yourself by visiting the sales sections of forums like this one and including this one, but heh). My reply to that is, please prove that anybody is assuming that anybody who keeps frogs will sell offspring.

Good luck on that one, given that this is, as said before, solely your perception. You can't prove what is going on in people's minds at the end of the day, but heh argue away, if nothing else it helps to keep the site looking nice and busy, and helps me to waste a bit of time seeing what the latest episode of baseless argument might bring.  That's the only reason I am bothering to post again, I love seeing you ignore me. 

Ade


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Please help me clarify the occurrence of offspring -
requires a male frog
requires a female frog
requires a body of water

Are all these statements true? If so, if one of these items is missing, there will be no offspring, right?


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

Some Barry White helps, too.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Blocker Institute said:


> jpstod said:
> 
> 
> > You were Never Forced to participate.
> ...


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

guppygal said:


> Please help me clarify the occurrence of offspring -
> requires a male frog
> requires a female frog
> requires a body of water
> ...


waTch ouT Guppygal only us morons can figure ThaT ouT...Some how if someone puTs all males in a mixed Tank They will sponTaneously change sexes and produce Hybrid Offspring

ans wez bee rund oft them herz bords


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I pray to the ethers that a caring God (no, I mean MOD) will take some pity on the members of this board and put this OMFG thread to bed. Thanks.

Richard.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Please Mods! Put this thread to death! It is harassing and obnoxious. Nothing good can come of this. There is no true goal or direction here. Not since Hitler, was anything more deserving to die than this pointless thread!


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## Atmus (Mar 3, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Please Mods! Put this thread to death! It is harassing and obnoxious. Nothing good can come of this. There is no true goal or direction here. Not since Hitler, was anything more deserving to die than this pointless thread!


That's not an ecologically sound viewpoint. Instead of destroying this thread, let's recycle it.

This thread is now about behaviour modification in frogs.

I'd like a vertical tank with Azureus frogs, but my understanding is that they don't like to climb all over the place as I would like them to. Rather than hybridize them with climbing frogs, I propose to add a couple Pacman frogs to the ground. After the first couple Azureus get eaten, the rest should keep off the ground, similar to the hit movie series Tremors. I will also play these movies on a loop for the frogs to help give them the idea.

Thoughts?


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Am I the only one who notices that NOBODY wants to answer my basic question? Y'all will fight to the death over offspring, yet no one can figure out how to prevent it. 

Or maybe it's a trick question......hmmmmmmm.....


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Atmus said:


> That's not an ecologically sound viewpoint. Instead of destroying this thread, let's recycle it.
> 
> This thread is now about behaviour modification in frogs.
> 
> ...


But what happens when the pacman frogs eventually evolve and start flying. Those Azureus are SCREWED!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> But what happens when the pacman frogs eventually evolve and start flying. Those Azureus are SCREWED!


Evolve? Or are deliberately crossbred with the flying monkeys coming out of...somewhere.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

guppygal said:


> Am I the only one who notices that NOBODY wants to answer my basic question? Y'all will fight to the death over offspring, yet no one can figure out how to prevent it.
> 
> Or maybe it's a trick question......hmmmmmmm.....


tHey do not want to..tHen tHey would Have none to sell


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

jpstod said:


> tHey do not want to..tHen tHey would Have none to sell


It's because same-sex pairs lead to stress, and possible death of the frogs involved. Not worth it. If you want to keep your frogs individually, then go for it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jpstod said:


> tHey do not want to..tHen tHey would Have none to sell


Again the implication that selling frogs is evil.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Atmus said:


> That's not an ecologically sound viewpoint. Instead of destroying this thread, let's recycle it.


There are some things that do not need to be "recycled" unless you mean encased in glass and buried under a mountain for the next 80 million years...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> It's because same-sex pairs lead to stress, and possible death of the frogs involved. Not worth it. If you want to keep your frogs individually, then go for it.


 
This isn't always the case nor is it always inevitiable...


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> This isn't always the case nor is it always inevitiable...


Sorry, I should have said "are more likely to"...perhaps not inevitable, but I think we should always try to err on the side of caution.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I am trying to figure out what the clinical diagnosis would be for you. You are clearly a narcissist that loves having the attention of others (even negative reinforcement) and I would guess a bit of a sociopath in that you seem to be getting off on pissing off just about every other person here.

Good for you. You have gone to a great length to prove your uselessness to the hobby.

Richard.



jpstod said:


> tHey do not want to..tHen tHey would Have none to sell


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)




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## Blocker Institute (Apr 19, 2010)

Good comeback. While learning the actual language falls well short of utilizing a quote mark correctly on the internet. Congratulations.

Most of us will officially close our ears and computers to any request you pose on this forum and any others that we are part of. 

You must be disciplined like the child you are. 

Good luck finding reliable and helpful advice in the future seeing as to how your ability to navigate the internet and read while formulating your own opinion in a logical manner eludes you.

Please kill thread


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Blocker Institute said:


> Good comeback. While learning the actual language falls well short of utilizing a quote mark correctly on the internet. Congratulations.
> 
> Most of us will officially close our ears and computers to any request you pose on this forum and any others that we are part of.
> 
> ...


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I am Sure I was not going to find any from you anyways

I am sure you Know it all Anyways........

HAVA GREATZ DAZE...PROFESSOR KNOWSITALLS

I GOTZ MI WADEDERSS ON COUS ITSA GETING DEEP IN POOP INNS HAIR


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

This incoherent ramble of nothingness ought to be locked so it doesn't waste any more storage space.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Closed*

I read the last 8 or 9 entries here - and the only one that had any merit to it at all, was from Mr. Richardson saying this should be closed.

It's closed.

s


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