# WC Imports



## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

I would like to eventually concentrate on WC Imports...can someone give me some of the negative sides of doing such? Also, does anyone know who imports WC adults to where I can learn more about the process?


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

One of the main difficulties that you can potentially have with WC imports is getting them acclimated, quarantined, and treated if they arrive in bad shape. If they aren't taken care of while being shipped and exported, they may end up thin, stressed, and sick with lots of parasites and other diseases. In some cases, you could do everything right and still lose a lot of frogs if they are freshly imported and too far gone already.
The extra time/money and precaution to house and treat them separately from other frogs, so you don't transmit diseases between them, along with the increased risk in many cases of higher mortality rates, can make WC imports more difficult.
Bryan


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Let's turn this around a little. I'm curious why you would want to focus on WC imports?


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

stemcellular said:


> Let's turn this around a little. I'm curious why you would want to focus on WC imports?


I was thinking the exact same thing.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

This is a bad idea. There are a LOT of captive breed available. Unless you want to be a part of the problem, stay captive breed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

There are several groups now breeding wild frogs for sale to frog collectors (Understory Eneterprises amongst them). You can get F1 frogs direct from the wild (with locality data) and know that your money is going toward the conservation of the frogs in the wild (not just put in the hands of unscrupulous exporters and importers).

Good luck in the hobby, Richard.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

Well - I come from a zoo background and am pretty keen on my breeding of animals in terms of bottlenecking is concerned. I feel it's fairly important to have these fresh strains available to prevent the bottlenecking of a species and starting to inbreed. With that being said, I also work with some zoos with some of the animals in which I have (not limited to dart frogs by any stretch of measure) and I know that zoos are much more apt to do business with the "private sector" if there is something there for them to want - in this case new lines.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

TyGuy said:


> I would like to eventually concentrate on WC Imports...can someone give me some of the negative sides of doing such? Also, does anyone know who imports WC adults to where I can learn more about the process?


Other than having to make the contacts in other countries, get permits, and compete with the well established importers like SNDF and Understory, it should be easy!  Plus, Frog Breeding is extremely lucrative! You'll be driving a Bentley in no time!

Seriously, there are more negatives than positives............this thread could go on for a while on negatives......


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

Woodsman said:


> There are several groups now breeding wild frogs for sale to frog collectors (Understory Eneterprises amongst them). You can get F1 frogs direct from the wild (with locality data) and know that your money is going toward the conservation of the frogs in the wild (not just put in the hands of unscrupulous exporters and importers).
> 
> Good luck in the hobby, Richard.


I'm going to assume by F1, hobbyist are referring to "straight from the wild"? It's kind of curious why this is so, as in other areas in which breeding is concerned, and F1 is a "wild" bred to a captive/domestic.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

F1 refers to the first generation of unrelated offspring. So a WC male x WC female produces F1 offspring. Once that is established they are typically designated to a line. IE: SNDF Line, Vanishing Jewels Line, Nabors Line... etc.. This line info is a designation in addition to morph/locality designation and helps us hobbiests to pair unrelated groups. 
Also note : F2 refers to the generation produced from breeding related F1 together

'

Todd


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

TyGuy said:


> I'm going to assume by F1, hobbyist are referring to "straight from the wild"? It's kind of curious why this is so, as in other areas in which breeding is concerned, and F1 is a "wild" bred to a captive/domestic.


You would be surprised how many of us hobbyists have scientific backgrounds. With that being said, F1 means first captive bred generation basically. So the first generation you get after you breed WC imports. And I'm not sure what you mean in the last sentence, as this is how it is in most other areas.

This hobby is more about working with the lines we already have, and keeping them genetically similar to their wild counterparts. All in all, we would like to limit the amount of WC animals coming in. Managing the captive animals we have now makes more sense than constantly removing animals from the wild.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

No F1 with things like Understory Enterprises means first captive generation from wild adults. So UE would go get the paperwork and stuff needed, collect the adult frogs, then breed them, and offspring from the unrelated, wild caught frogs would be sold. 
IMO, it's kind of like the best of both worlds because you get really nice, healthy frogs that are captive bred from respectable breeders with locale data, but they still are unrelated so it's not like some old line untracked frogs which may have been inbred for generations already.
Bryan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TyGuy said:


> Well - I come from a zoo background and am pretty keen on my breeding of animals in terms of bottlenecking is concerned. I feel it's fairly important to have these fresh strains available to prevent the bottlenecking of a species and starting to inbreed. With that being said, I also work with some zoos with some of the animals in which I have (not limited to dart frogs by any stretch of measure) and I know that zoos are much more apt to do business with the "private sector" if there is something there for them to want - in this case new lines.


There are more than a few of us from a Zoo background..... including more than a few with a long history...... 

As for bottlenecking, if the genetics of the population are managed (which a number of people are slowly doing), then the risk of bottlenecking is pushed pretty far back... 

As for selling to Zoos... Unless something has recently changed, azureus was the only managed program of dendrobatids which was somewhat rendered moot by the azureus being reduced from species status to a population of tinctorius. With only D. tinctorius "azureus" being the only managed population, I'm not sure why you are making the assumption that zoos are going to want F1 animals (F0 is the parental generation, or in your case, the actual wild caught animals). 

If the zoo is following strict AZA protocols, then you would also have to have sold animals to a AZA zoo and possibly allow at least one inspection of your premises to make sure that the frogs were housed and managed in a manner acceptable to AZA... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

Well - apparently there are more than just that one species being managed, by a couple zoos. And when it comes to AZA and such - my facility is inspected over 6 times a year by the USDA, NYS DEC, and AZA Institutions. And as far as the WC thing goes - hands down, importing new lines is always beneficial to ANY population of animal, regardless of species. Bottlenecking is always a concern - it shouldn't be shoved to the back of people's minds because its "not an issue now" which really seems to be a mindset by a few here...and coming from a zoo background and having that mentality truly surprises me, but to each their own. At any rate - I appreciate all the comments and such about why and why not to bring in WC non-related breeders into the community - and once I get set up a little more - I think i'm going to do it!


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

TyGuy said:


> and coming from a zoo background


I don't mean to be brusque or offensive, I'm asking out of curiosity. What's your zoo background?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

If WC are going to be coming in....wouldn't it be better they go to someone who has an interest in getting them established? Example: what are they the new river tincs or whichever morph it was that about 5 pairs came in recently.

CB is the easy route sure, and in some species I have heard much easier to breed than WC.... but it seems to be that most WC dart frogs breed just as good if not better than CB once established. I know years ago mine did.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

If you're really coming from a zoo background, I'm really surprised that you don't care about the conservation of the species. You say you're from the new york area, so I'm sure that you're familiar with the Wildlife Conservation Society, which all the zoos (and aquarium) in the New York metropolitan area are a part of? One of the biggest endeavors of the WCS (and I'm sure most zoos in this country), is the conservation of species in the wild (i.e. wildlife conservation).

Along those lines, I'm also aware that in this effort to conserve wild populations, many zoos do not purchase wild caught animals if there is a captive bred alternative (which there is for most dart frog species). And in an effort to curb "bottlenecking", many zoos coordinate breeding programs with other zoos and swap animals to keep the gene pool healthy, instead of just importing wild caught animals.

I'm also a bit surprised you weren't aware of what F1 meant... This is a basic (high school) biology term, and I would really expect that someone who works with breeding in zoos would be aware of this term. If there is any breeding going on in the zoo (probably managed of overseen by some sort of biologist?), this would certainly be how they would keep track of what generation is breeding.

In short, it's frowned upon. It's frowned upon by the dart frog hobbyist (the vast majority of whom support conservation efforts), and I'm fairly certain that it would be frowned upon by the zoos which you would want to supply (the vast majority of which also support conservation efforts). 

If you're not discouraged by any of the words of those on the boards, then your best bet for learning about the process of importing wild caught dart frogs would be to contact Understory Enterprises. Home | Understory Enterprises . They are also VERY involved in conservation efforts, and a portion of their proceeds goes toward conservation efforts. They know all the ins and outs of the process, so they really are your best bet.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Are you guys really taking this seriously? It doesn't sound like TyGuy has much experience with darts. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/754879-post2.html How many years do you think it will be before he actually learns enough husbandry and makes enough contacts to be able to import frogs? He'll give up this pipe dream before that. I do find it interesting that he really didn't know the meaning of F1. I've never heard of F1 meaning offspring of a WC and a CB. Even years ago when keeping cichlids F1 was always the first generation from wild parents. 
The whole bottle necking thing reeks of BrianWI though, perhaps an associate, or minion.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TyGuy said:


> Well - apparently there are more than just that one species being managed, by a couple zoos.


Really? And which species and when were the studbooks/PMP books put together? Who is running the studbooks/PMPs? I'm curious as to whether or not it's one of my friends.... 



TyGuy said:


> And when it comes to AZA and such - my facility is inspected over 6 times a year by the USDA, NYS DEC, and AZA Institutions.


Really? Typically USDA inspections only occur once a year unless there have been multiple violations or they suspect that there are issues that require a more frequent check... being inspected more than once a year doesn't speak very well for you.... (USDA - APHIS - Animal Welfare - Animal Care) As for AZA inspections, typically unless you are registered as an AZA facility (when it would be once every 5 years), then it only takes one visit by a qualified person which if positive would allow you to vend going forward to not only that zoo but multiple zoos.... 



TyGuy said:


> And as far as the WC thing goes - hands down, importing new lines is always beneficial to ANY population of animal, regardless of species. !


Actually new lines aren't always beneficial.. one of the problems with your position is that many of the lines of frogs in the hobby do not come with specific locality data so importing "new" lines of any of the established species is a real risk with out breeding depression.... The risk of this in both wild and captive anuran populations has been well established.... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

See Meet the Founders | Fragile Planet Wildlife Foundation 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

TyGuy said:


> Well - apparently there are more than just that one species being managed, by a couple zoos. And when it comes to AZA and such - my facility is inspected over 6 times a year by the USDA, NYS DEC, and AZA Institutions. And as far as the WC thing goes - hands down, importing new lines is always beneficial to ANY population of animal, regardless of species. Bottlenecking is always a concern - it shouldn't be shoved to the back of people's minds because its "not an issue now" which really seems to be a mindset by a few here...and coming from a zoo background and having that mentality truly surprises me, but to each their own. At any rate - I appreciate all the comments and such about why and why not to bring in WC non-related breeders into the community - and once I get set up a little more - I think i'm going to do it!


I predict a surge and subsequent collection sale in t minus three months, beginning now....


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

i think it would of helped if ty would of given some back ground info on his "zoo carear". might of gotten different reponses to his post.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

Allow me to elaborate a little more...

First of all: I posted a question to get answered, not to be ridiculed due to curious minds wanting to know. I apologize if your opinions are different than mine. 

Secondly - I am inspected once a year by the USDA, and if you read the regs in the USDA book, its technically supposed to be twice a year. I get inspected 3 times a year by the NYS DEC for each license I possess from them - Threatened/Endangered Species Permit, Wildlife Rehabilitation, and Educational Possess and Collect. For every transaction I make with an AZAa facility requires an inspection, pictures of my place taken, etc before the animal comes to my facility. 

3rd - NYS DEC considers an F1 species as a wild animal bred back to a captive or domesticated animal (USDA classifies them the same as well) - and I completely get and understand that an F1 is also the first generation of offspring from wild caught parents. I was just asking for clarification on the issue. 

4th - I know for fact that Tulsa Zoo and Rosamond Gifford Zoo BOTH manage various species of dart frogs. 

5th - I started my "professional" zoo career in 2005 at the NYS Zoo and since then have interned at the Toronto Zoo and Tulsa Zoo. I have also done training seminars in various other zoos, sanctuaries, rehabilitation centers, etc. 

6th - Yes, I do own my own Wildlife Center in NY and support the private RESPONSIBLY ownership of exotic animals. (not asking for your opinion here either). 

I hope this answers your questions accordingly. Again, my intent wasn't to offend anybody - was just interested in gathering others' opinions. Just because I asked about WC Imports doesn't mean that i'm going to run out and do it, I was asking what it took to do it for POSSIBLE future reference. 

Thanks for everybody's concerns, complaints, etc - I will refrain from asking questions again. And some of you are right, I am a newbie to having my own personal PDF collection and am by NO means an expert on them and won't pretend to be. With that I ask that people calm down, chill out with the personal attacks, and just answer simple questions as asked. 

Appreciated.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> . I do find it interesting that he really didn't know the meaning of F1. I've never heard of F1 meaning offspring of a WC and a CB. Even years ago when keeping cichlids F1 was always the first generation from wild parents.


Hi Rusty,

The hobbies tend to use a slightly different definition of F tracking then the technical meaning...let's see if I can make it clear. 

Technically any tracking of a new line starts with the progenitors being designated as F0 regardless if they are from wild caught animals or not. So for example, I have two captive bred animals (regardless of whether they are related or not) and begin to breed them, my pair is technically F0, and the offspring F1. For a hobby to follow this methedology actually results in a lot of confusion and angst and instead in many hobbies, F0 is the generation of wild caught animals and F1, is the first generation of captive bred animals from wild caught animals, while F2 is from captive breeding F1s (regardless if they are from the same clutch or not). For some reasons many hobbies want to know how many generations removed from the wild caught animals, thier animals are.... 

There is also some variation in the hobby on how to label the following pairings, 
F1 bred to F2, F0 bred to F2, F0 bred to F1, and so forth... Some people count all F1 to F2 as F2, some as F3.... 

Some comments

Ed


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

TyGuy,

Hang in there! The attacks are normal for here. There are some of us more open minded.

Nomenclature can get you. For instance, making breeding charts for hybrids, the parental generation is P, backcrosses are B, etc. More confusing that purebred charts. All part of the fun! Depending on what you are doing, some things are more important than others to those buying the offspring. Here, anything other than purebred, non-linebreeding opens you up to all kinds of abuse 

I would guess that success depends on connections and money for what you want to do. I would like to hear more, don't let the other stuff stop you from talking to us who are interested.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

I appreciate the support here as well...for a "newbie" with his own collection it can be quite discouraging when you inquire about something and you get ridicule. I won't stop posting questions ( I was being a little dramatic ) - but those who have been in the hobby long enough I feel should probably be a little more understanding and open minded and help guide and instruct as opposed to attack. So thank you for the encouragement, the support, and thanks for some of you stepping up to help me explain the situations a little more clearly. I hope that my responses helped clear things up a bit as well. I think it would be cool if we had a section for noobs to introduce themselves and their backgrounds so others can more formally understand the situations in which they are dealing with.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

TyGuy said:


> Well - apparently there are more than just that one species being managed, by a couple zoos. And when it comes to AZA and such - my facility is inspected over 6 times a year by the USDA, NYS DEC, and AZA Institutions. And as far as the WC thing goes - hands down, importing new lines is always beneficial to ANY population of animal, regardless of species. Bottlenecking is always a concern - it shouldn't be shoved to the back of people's minds because its "not an issue now" which really seems to be a mindset by a few here...and coming from a zoo background and having that mentality truly surprises me, but to each their own. At any rate - I appreciate all the comments and such about why and why not to bring in WC non-related breeders into the community - and once I get set up a little more - I think i'm going to do it!


Unless I am mistaken, zoos do their best to manage genetics with what they have. It seems to me that they would discourage wild collection unless absolutely necessary (e.g., in dire circumstances where the zoo collection is not enough to maintain it or wild populations are in threat of extinction). 

They have developed protocol for breeding that helps maintain genetic diversity without the need for continual imports. This requires having a certain number of individuals, but it is certainly within the capability of a breeder to follow AZA protocol (which is freely available, also check TWI) and maintain a captive population without risk of bottlenecking. The hard part for this for the typical hobbyist is getting the required number of individuals to maintain a healthy colony.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TyGuy said:


> 4th - I know for fact that Tulsa Zoo and Rosamond Gifford Zoo BOTH manage various species of dart frogs.


Your getting a lot of flak because your creating a lot of suspicion with your questions and answers. 

Azureus are the only species of Dendrobatid that I am aware of that has a management plan and that was hosted out of NAIB. In formulating the studbook, the recommendation made by AZA was to not manage any other dendrobatids to ensure that there was enough institutional space for the azureus population as well as the other studbook/pmp anurans (Wyoming toads, Atelopus zeteki or varius, Spray toads, Puerto Rican Crested Toads).... etc. Hence which is why I asked which species have a PMP or studbook because if there isn't a recognized management plan, then they aren't being managed... 

So I'll ask a second time, which species other than azureus have PMPs or Studbooks?

I spent close to 19 years working as a reptile keeper and lead keeper at Philly, and only recently seperated due to illness. My wife still works there and I still keep in touch with a fair amount of people which is why a number of your answers aren't quite right to me...

Ed


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Ed said:


> Your getting a lot of flak because your creating a lot of suspicion with your questions and answers.
> 
> Azureus are the only species of Dendrobatid that I am aware of that has a management plan and that was hosted out of NAIB. In formulating the studbook, the recommendation made by AZA was to not manage any other dendrobatids to ensure that there was enough institutional space for the azureus population as well as the other studbook/pmp anurans (Wyoming toads, Atelopus zeteki or varius, Spray toads, Puerto Rican Crested Toads).... etc. Hence which is why I asked which species have a PMP or studbook because if there isn't a recognized management plan, then they aren't being managed...
> 
> ...


I think some of the confusion is the difference between managing and keeping.

I have seen a number of species of dart frogs at zoos, but I think they're just used as display animals and are not actively being managed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> Unless I am mistaken, zoos do their best to manage genetics with what they have. It


 
One would think this to be the case but it isn't, and that is specifically due to the space available across institutions. There simply isn't enough space in all of the zoos in the world (much less the USA) to properly manage all of the species in Zoo collections. As a result, species are evaluated for management and depending on the robustness of the population both within a region and across the country may or may not be managed. 

See for example Untitled Page 
If approved then the person interested in managing the PMP is selected and puts togehter a PMP http://www.aza.org/uploadedFiles/An...s/Conservation_Programs_Database/PLH_PMPs.pdf 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> I think some of the confusion is the difference between managing and keeping.
> 
> I have seen a number of species of dart frogs at zoos, but I think they're just used as display animals and are not actively being managed.


The Zoos that have them on display may also have animals breeding (in single species exhibits) or have breeding colonies off exhibit which can be used to supply animals to other institutions (typically for animals like dart frogs, the animals are simply given to another institution (paper work says "gratis")) with shipping being the only cost. 

I've sent out hundreds of frogs to other institutions as "gratis"... I don't know how it is faring off hand but the foundation of the hour glass tree frog colony at Philly originated with some free tadpoles from Atlanta Botanical Gardens mixed in with some red eye treefrog tadpoles. 

Some comments

Ed


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

> Your getting a lot of flak because your creating a lot of suspicion with your questions and answers.


Don't be suspicious or so easy to attack. There is even a mod doing it. Passing judgement on a guy, who appears may be your peer, on a few posts isn't a good thing. I see it time and time again here.

Is Ty your name?


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> TyGuy,
> 
> Hang in there! The attacks are normal for here. There are some of us more open minded.


Dude, I wish I had some warning.......I laughed so hard when I read this that I blew soda out my nose!

Your political rants do not display "open mindedness" very often.......


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Don't be suspicious or so easy to attack. There is even a mod doing it. Passing judgement on a guy, who appears may be your peer, on a few posts isn't a good thing. I see it time and time again here.
> 
> Is Ty your name?


Again, are you really calling someone out for being judgemental? You've turned over a new leaf, then?


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Thank you for the example...

See Ty? Don't sweat it!


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I'll tell ya what TyGuy. If you want a challenge and a chance to help the hobby do something even harder than work with imported frogs. Learn all you can about husbandry techniques for these frogs, keep easier to maintain and breed species from quality captive bred sources, gain some experience with success and failure. Then try and dedicate yourself to working with a frog like Hyloxalus azureiventris over the next 10-15 yrs. and try to get it better established within the hobby.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

illinoisfrogs said:


> Ty, before you count BrianWI as a "friend", here's some good reading for you:
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/thunderdome/79379-republican-candidates-their-own-words.html
> 
> But apparently he's matured since then!


While I understand some people don't like Brian, trudging this stuff up on the main forum is bad form, will only lead to pointless flame wars, and has absolutely nothing to do with the OP


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

It is more of the same. "I am going to attack you, but don't you dare retaliate"!


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> While I understand some people don't like Brian, trudging this stuff up on the main forum is bad form, will only lead to pointless flame wars, and has absolutely nothing to do with the OP


Point taken....I removed it.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

I am referring to the act of housing, keeping, and distribution of other species...whether there is a PMP or Studbook for them or not - they are in fact being bred, cared for, and sent to other facilities within AZA.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Tyguy, what is the name of your wildlife center, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

jacobi said:


> Tyguy, what is the name of your wildlife center, if you don't mind me asking?


Ed posted this earlier in the thread: Fragile Planet Wildlife Foundation


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TyGuy said:


> I am referring to the act of housing, keeping, and distribution of other species...whether there is a PMP or Studbook for them or not - they are in fact being bred, cared for, and sent to other facilities within AZA.


That doesn't constitute management.. since the size, degree of relatedness and/or genetic drift aren't being managed in the population. In cases like that, it isn't uncommon for froglets from the same clutch to be transferred to another institution instead of determining which animals are the least represented and looking for active breeding of those animals while stopping the reproduction of the most represented animals(s). 

They are simply sending off surplus animals for other institutions typically just for display... As an example, at Philadelphia was the first institution in a long time to aquire some Pipa parva. I cracked some of the issues with breeding and produced hundreds of toadlets.. These were sent out to other institutions. To call them managed is incorrect, they were simply bred (often on demand) and supplied to other institutions. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I should add, that there isn't anything in place or intended to stop the population from going extinct in the Zoos... which can occur based on a variety of things, none of which are tracked or scrutinized... 

If that happens, a zoo that needs some new stock will simply aquire some from a approved vendor..... 


Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Dev30ils said:


> Ed posted this earlier in the thread: Fragile Planet Wildlife Foundation


Yes, I know... 

Tyguy, nobody wants to attack you, per se. But many of the members here are scientists with multiple degrees and accolades backing their thoughts and statements. I, as much as I'd like to be, am not one of them. Just somebody who tries to think logically and often fails miserably  Anyway, back on track. The majority of the people here are in agreement or close agreement over issues such as wild caught animals, genetic diversity, breeding, etc, and a few have spent their lives working on these issues and to spread the knowledge of these issues. Some of the people here have known each other for many years. 
We know almost nothing about you, apart from what may be your website, and that wasn't voluntarily offered. When the first posts you make on Dendroboard are wildly in conflict with the position that most if not all of the people here, respected scientists included, you are going to be treated with suspicion, particularly as it is currently one of a few sensitive topics due to several threads that have gotten out of control recently. 

If you want my unasked for opinion about what I would do in this situation, I would take a deep breath, swallow my pride, and prepare to learn as much as possible from the great people here on Dendroboard.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree to a lot of what you're saying, but it's hard to swallow or respond accordingly when those that apparently are "above the rest" don't give that opportunity. I am more than happy to answer any questions - but give me some time to answer. But being questioned is completely different than being judged and ridiculed repeatedly over a single post. A good hobbyist (IMO) is one that takes the time to take a deep breath for themselves and gently explain the issue or the situation in how they perceive it with tact. All most of these people are doing is chasing people away and out of the hobby due to their snarky remarks and rude behavior. GET A GRIP people and TEACH the "noobs" the ways - genuinely and professionally. With the way things are handled in this group by a few here - i'd A) Never take head to their advice B) Never refer to them as a professional B) Never purchase anything from them C) Never support them and D) I'd not even come close as to referring to them as experts - the real experts of herpetology, ornithology, etc, etc have ALWAYS treated the "new-comers" with respect. A huge thing some of these people on here are lacking!


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

As soon as I get home I will elaborate myself a little more for people to know more about me if that's the issue...


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Boy, keep talking like that and the rumors that you are "one of my minions" is going to spread. LOL! (I truly hope we don't have to battle that nonsense further)

It is going to take a few of us with opinions different than the "mainstreamers" to hold our ground and not be allowed to be chased off. And fair moderation to keep us from being ridiculed. But, if that happens, maybe some day certain topics will again be breached and different opinions can coexist. Then myself, AS A DEGREED SCIENTIST, won't have to see posts about how having a different, yet valid, opinion negates my broad experience. I certainly see your experience and at least some of who you are in your website.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Then myself, AS A DEGREED SCIENTIST


Degrees in what from where?


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

jacobi,

You don't get it. You made your first, bad, impression and now are going to be looked at differently. I had the same experience. So have several others. Most stay quiet or leave. If Tyler is now a bit distant, you have no one to blame but the people who went after him so shortly after his arrival.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

jacobi said:


> Degrees in what from where?


and there you go again, looking for trouble. And you wonder why someone may be suspicious of your motives?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> jacobi,
> 
> You don't get it. You made your first, bad, impression and now are going to be looked at differently. I had the same experience. So have several others. Most stay quiet or leave. If Tyler is now a bit distant, you have no one to blame but the people who went after him so shortly after his arrival.


Brian,

Can you give us a quick overview of your scientific qualifications as well as a quick overview of your dart keeping experience. That way everyone can decide for themselves whether or not your opinions are based on first hand experience or are merely conjectures with no supporting evidence.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> and there you go again, looking for trouble. And you wonder why someone may be suspicious of your motives?


I'm not looking for trouble. I'm merely inquiring, politely, what degrees you have and what university you received your degrees from. It's not a question anybody I have ever known or had interacted with in any way had a problem talking about, particularly those who are proud of their accomplishments. I'm currently in Brooklyn College, working towards a BA in biology, and plan on eventually getting a doctorate in physical therapy.

Motives? What motives? Who's suspicious?


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> jacobi,
> 
> You don't get it. You made your first, bad, impression and now are going to be looked at differently.


Um... what?


----------



## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Brian,
> 
> Can you give us a quick overview of your scientific qualifications as well as a quick overview of your dart keeping experience. That way everyone can decide for themselves whether or not your opinions are based on first hand experience or are merely conjectures with no supporting evidence.


Stop trolling, please.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Stop trolling, please.


Trolling how? You came to this forum and have made claims in a number of threads which are contrary to the experience of the great majority of the people here who maintain large, long term collections. 

To put it in perspective when I got here a few years back some of my views on doing mixed species displays and parasite treatment methods( I don't believe you need to treat at the first sign of parasites) were not received with open arms either. But people found out more about me and had a chance to view my collection and keeping methods and became more accepting and tolerant of the way I do things.

Now coming back to you, since no one really knows much about you or has seen your collection, you are basing the validity of your claims on the fact that to use your own words "YOU ARE A DEGREED SCIENTIST" 

With that being the case how is it trolling to ask you about your experience with darts and the nature of the degrees that would validate your arguments?


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Can't you stop?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Can't you stop?


Stop what? All I am asking is for information that will help people make an educated decision. Is there a reason you are uncomfortable with providing it?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Stephen Hawking is also a "degreed scientist" but would I trust his advice on keeping poison dart frogs? Not a chance. So, as such, Jake's question is very valid. Simply saying your a scientist does not actually qualify you for everything science related.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Some just cannot seem to help themselves. 

Not too be rude, but I will take JP (Monarchzman) as an example. He already knows, and as odd is it may seem, told me my degree doesn't exist, no school offers it. So, obviously, what is the point, it leads to more attacks.


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

Umm.. in an attempt to get back on track...


Probably already said at some point but in a few words my take on it is this: Genetic variability is fine and dandy for our populations here but those are nothing more than that, our captive populations. Without any management plan, any of what little (if any) hope is there for re establishing a species with our own frogs at zoos is gone. I am all for zoos and aquariums working with new species, especially if it is struggling or hard to find species. But a cost/benefit analysis is in order.
Smugglers can and are destroying populations of frogs, many of which are thriving and popular to us here in the states. WC imports= demand for smugglers. you may be making a conscious decision not to support them and be responsible in your sources, but if they see people buying wc frogs, that's their racket and they will just up the ante and try a new approach to the market. 

It's an unfortunate truth but when you display a new wc pumilio, someone else is going to want one too. Only they might not be as careful in obtaining it as you were.

No disrespect intended, starting up a wildlife center is a commendable thing to do. I'm just trying to represent my feelings on the thought needed for the risk/reward of importing exotic animals.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

CJW

I see the point clearly. Even if I buy a captive bred animal, it may be an F1 and someone else had the WC. What was accomplished?

It can be hard to control what you are at least one layer removed from.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

CJW said:


> Umm.. in an attempt to get back on track...
> 
> 
> Probably already said at some point but in a few words my take on it is this: Genetic variability is fine and dandy for our populations here but those are nothing more than that, our captive populations. Without any management plan, any of what little (if any) hope is there for re establishing a species with our own frogs at zoos is gone. I am all for zoos and aquariums working with new species, especially if it is struggling or hard to find species. But a cost/benefit analysis is in order.
> ...


Well, as Ed likes to tell me, auratus are often the most smuggled dendrobatid despite CB individuals being so readily available. Smugglers are going to smuggle, and the best way to combat it is buying from legal sources.

All of that said, I agree that CB should always be pursued. But with the general disorganization of the hobby (e.g., no extensive hobby-wide breeding program), wild caughts are occasionally be necessary. It is an unfortunate problem, for sure. The best we can do is ensure they were collected legally, and perhaps even that the money goes into habitat protection.


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

BrianWI said:


> CJW
> 
> I see the point clearly. Even if I buy a captive bred animal, it may be an F1 and someone else had the WC. What was accomplished?
> 
> It can be hard to control what you are at least one layer removed from.


You are supporting the person who bred the animals rather than the importer himself. You can only control what you do, correct. But if various hobbies start to accept this truth and only obtain frogs from captive breeding programs with a conservation mindset like understory, inibico, etc, then that makes it that much harder for smugglers to seem like legitimate options for beginners


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> *Some just cannot seem to help themselves. *
> 
> Not too be rude, but I will take JP (Monarchzman) as an example. He already knows, and as odd is it may seem, told me my degree doesn't exist, no school offers it. So, obviously, what is the point, it leads to more attacks.


So no insight on your experience level or relevance of degrees?


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

MonarchzMan said:


> Well, as Ed likes to tell me, auratus are often the most smuggled dendrobatid despite CB individuals being so readily available. Smugglers are going to smuggle, and the best way to combat it is buying from legal sources.
> 
> All of that said, I agree that CB should always be pursued. But with the general disorganization of the hobby (e.g., no extensive hobby-wide breeding program), wild caughts are occasionally be necessary. It is an unfortunate problem, for sure. The best we can do is ensure they were collected legally, and perhaps even that the money goes into habitat protection.


I realize this, and yeah there will always be smugglers as long as we drool over frogs. But educating ones self on how this drooled at frog came to be available in this trade (or how it could be available to the trade) is what I feel is the best way to combat it.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

CJW said:


> You are supporting the person who bred the animals rather than the importer himself. You can only control what you do, correct. But if various hobbies start to accept this truth and only obtain frogs from captive breeding programs with a conservation mindset like understory, inibico, etc, then that makes it that much harder for smugglers to seem like legitimate options for beginners


I certainly support that. I have read about Understory.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

mantisdragon91 said:


> So no insight on your experience level or relevance of degrees?


Do Not Feed The Trolls!


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

CJW said:


> I realize this, and yeah there will always be smugglers as long as we drool over frogs. But educating ones self on how this drooled at frog came to be available in this trade (or how it could be available to the trade) is what I feel is the best way to combat it.


Do you mind if I PM you a question, as to avoid a flame war here?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

CJW said:


> You are supporting the person who bred the animals rather than the importer himself. You can only control what you do, correct. But if various hobbies start to accept this truth and only obtain frogs from captive breeding programs with a conservation mindset like understory, inibico, etc, then that makes it that much harder for smugglers to seem like legitimate options for beginners


To expand on this excellent point in my 25 years in the hobby I have seen multiple species disappear from the hobby because the imports were coming in so cheaply that it wasn't cost effective to concentrate on captive breeding. Thus when the country of origin shut down(as they invariably do) there was no expertise or stable populations to continue the species.

In my opinion WCs should only be purchased as founder stock and only by people that have the expertise and dedication to establish them in captivity.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Do Not Feed The Trolls!


How is asking for validation on your claims feeding Trolls? Is there a reason you choose to attack and insult rather than share your experience?


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Roman, give it up already. Control yourself. Move on.

Tyler, see?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Roman, give it up already. Control yourself. Move on.
> 
> Tyler, see?


Yet again. Can you please explain what it is about the questions regarding your dart experience and relevant degrees you find so toxic that you attempt to draw in others to help you evade it?


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

BrianWI said:


> Do you mind if I PM you a question, as to avoid a flame war here?


Not at all, go for it




mantisdragon91 said:


> In my opinion WCs should only be purchased as founder stock and only by people that have the expertise and dedication to establish them in captivity.


this. if were gonna be responsible about it anyway. some men just want to watch the world burn


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Should harassment be tolerated? MOVE ON!


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Should harassment be tolerated? MOVE ON!


How is asking questions about your experience and education after you used both to attempt and validate your claims be considered harassment?


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

CJW said:


> Not at all, go for it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PM was Sent


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

BS, you made the claim that you are a "DEGREED SCIENTIST" which can be deceptive since not all scientists are experts at all things science. As such, since you made the claim, it was a valid question to ask about what degrees you have that qualifies you to carry that title. You can stop playing the victim. It was an innocent question, and there was no need to accuse people of trolling for wanting clarification on your statements.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Is there an ignore feature on this site?


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

MonarchzMan said:


> BS, you made the claim that you are a "DEGREED SCIENTIST" which can be deceptive since not all scientists are experts at all things science. As such, since you made the claim, it was a valid question to ask about what degrees you have that qualifies you to carry that title. You can stop playing the victim. It was an innocent question, and there was no need to accuse people of trolling for wanting clarification on your statements.


Control yourself. Go away. Whatever it takes for you to stop being so childish. You both already have commented on my degrees. JP, you said it didn't exist. Great, believe that. No school offers them. Just stop with the harassment.


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

BrianWI said:


> Is there an ignore feature on this site?


God i wish


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

CJW said:


> God i wish


i think google has an add-on for chrome


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Well. In an effort to get slightly back on track... Tyguy, the above few posts are a perfect example of why people in this hobby are suspicious of those who come in to the hobby claiming to be beginners but also appearing to have an ulterior motive, no matter what that motive is. For some, the motive is quick cash. For some, it's the "wow" factor of having "cool" frogs. As much as those in the hobby are knowledgeable about dart frogs, the majority of the population barely knows they exist beyond a hypothetical knowledge of their existence as "poisonous frogs from the Amazon jungle" if that, much less their care in captivity. 

There have been multiple occasions where seemingly innocent questions we're asked, only later was it apparent that the questions we're asked with an ulterior motive. Bear in mind that while it may be called a "hobby", the majority of the people here are interested in furthering their knowledge, and actively participate in conservation efforts by choosing to pay more money for frogs from organizations such as Understory Enterprises, whose efforts directly combat the efforts of poachers. 

Anyway, that's all for now, I have another hour and a half on this stupid bus and my phone battery is dying...


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Control yourself. Go away. Whatever it takes for you to stop being so childish. You both already have commented on my degrees. JP, you said it didn't exist. Great, believe that. No school offers them. Just stop with the harassment.


So I take it is safe to assume that your degrees have no relevance to the topics discussed on this forum and your frog experience is minimal at best.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

mantisdragon91 said:


> So I take it is safe to assume that your degrees have no relevance to the topics discussed on this forum and your frog experience is minimal at best.


Believe whatever you want that will stop you from acting childish.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Believe whatever you want that will stop you from acting childish.


I'll take that as yes


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

mantisdragon91 said:


> I'll take that as yes


Awesome. Good bye!


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Roman, while I understand your frustration, continuing this outside the thunderdome is going to get this thread locked...


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

This, even superficially, doesnt look like a "quick cash" hobby. I would assume most fail in that effort, no?



jacobi said:


> Well. In an effort to get slightly back on track... Tyguy, the above few posts are a perfect example of why people in this hobby are suspicious of those who come in to the hobby claiming to be beginners but also appearing to have an ulterior motive, no matter what that motive is. For some, the motive is quick cash. For some, it's the "wow" factor of having "cool" frogs. As much as those in the hobby are knowledgeable about dart frogs, the majority of the population barely knows they exist beyond a hypothetical knowledge of their existence as "poisonous frogs from the Amazon jungle" if that, much less their care in captivity.
> 
> There have been multiple occasions where seemingly innocent questions we're asked, only later was it apparent that the questions we're asked with an ulterior motive. Bear in mind that while it may be called a "hobby", the majority of the people here are interested in furthering their knowledge, and actively participate in conservation efforts by choosing to pay more money for frogs from organizations such as Understory Enterprises, whose efforts directly combat the efforts of poachers.
> 
> Anyway, that's all for now, I have another hour and a half on this stupid bus and my phone battery is dying...


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

jacobi said:


> Anyway, that's all for now, I have another hour and a half on this stupid bus and my phone battery is dying...


Well I appreciate you sacrificing battery life to type that...

but your efforts to stay on track were in vain


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

BrianWI said:


> This, even superficially, doesnt look like a "quick cash" hobby. I would assume most fail in that effort, no?


Not to sound repetitive on the eco nut front but, it is quick cash for smugglers


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

jacobi said:


> Well. In an effort to get slightly back on track... Tyguy, the above few posts are a perfect example of why people in this hobby are suspicious of those who come in to the hobby claiming to be beginners but also appearing to have an ulterior motive, no matter what that motive is. For some, the motive is quick cash. For some, it's the "wow" factor of having "cool" frogs. As much as those in the hobby are knowledgeable about dart frogs, the majority of the population barely knows they exist beyond a hypothetical knowledge of their existence as "poisonous frogs from the Amazon jungle" if that, much less their care in captivity.
> 
> There have been multiple occasions where seemingly innocent questions we're asked, only later was it apparent that the questions we're asked with an ulterior motive. Bear in mind that while it may be called a "hobby", the majority of the people here are interested in furthering their knowledge, and actively participate in conservation efforts by choosing to pay more money for frogs from organizations such as Understory Enterprises, whose efforts directly combat the efforts of poachers.
> 
> Anyway, that's all for now, I have another hour and a half on this stupid bus and my phone battery is dying...


Further, there have been folks deliberately trying to start something up. Given that this is actually somewhat common, folks here seem to naturally be suspicious of "innocuous" questions. Especially when those questions are about controversial topics that have been well discussed on the forum.

You have to have a little bit of a thick skin here, is all. It's not attacks, but critical questioning. Some get defensive when they make claims they can't back up. And really, the critical questioning weeds out the good ideas from the bad. If it didn't happen, this site would be plagued with poor practices to the detriment of the frogs and hobby.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CJW said:


> Probably already said at some point but in a few words my take on it is this: Genetic variability is fine and dandy for our populations here but those are nothing more than that, our captive populations. Without any management plan, any of what little (if any) hope is there for re establishing a species with our own frogs at zoos is gone


I may misunderstanding what you are saying, and if so, please excuse it.. 
Actually, the dendrobatids in the hobby and those at zoos are not suitable for release or repatriation in any form (and this is the same for the studbook azureus (which is being managed for long-term population viability and not potential release or repatriation)). They have been housed in close proximity with non-native reptiles and amphibians which due to risks with novel pathogens prevents them from being acceptable for release. If an institution wants a species that isn't being bred in an institution, they will aquire it from a approved vendor. 

Ed


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

CJW said:


> Not to sound repetitive on the eco nut front but, it is quick cash for smugglers


I meant for those posting here hoping to make $$$. For the smugglers, $1.75 is probably a good weekly salary.

I thought those orange isopods were a money maker. I wanted some for my viv. $1 a piece plus shipping! But now that I am trying to keep even a small supply going for all my critter tanks, I understand why!


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok - my 2 scents! Asking for validation in the manner in which it was asked seemed a bit snarky - and at the time of the question. However, I am a nosy person by nature and like to know people's backgrounds a little myself - however, I generally like to ask those questions on a "lighter note". It's also my experience with keeping animals in general that the "old ways" can and tend to be much different than the "new ways" and there is often confrontation at that point. So if Brian feels that he's not being attacked, it's his obligation to tell or not to tell - I know many scientists who don't throw out their titles or degrees to just anybody questioning them. But, maybe in a later conversation when things cool down a bit (should they cool down), Brian would probably be more apt to discuss his educational background. 

Apparently there are a lot of questions as to who I am and what I do, etc, etc...so here you are because I have nothing to hide. I don't ask for approval - the approval of people that have no bearing in my life means nothing to me - so keep your snarky comments to yourself if you have any. I came here because I was told this was the "go-to" place for information, so here I am and just caught in the center of the drama-feud that some don't seem to want to let go. 

I am passionate about my animals, each and every one of them regardless of species. I want what is IN MY OPINION the best (not anybody else's opinion) for a collection regardless of whose it is - in this case MINE! I am constantly learning, trying new routes, and traveling the unpaved roads to try and render something beneficial that others may or may not have found already. But, as any of you should know - things happen and can work very differently for each and every one of us. There are 100 ways of doing something, and one isn't always better than the other - it's just how it works out to be best for the situation people are in. And, as long as animals are being cared for - that's what matters to me. 

I come from a family whose owned their own private zoo for many years (though now closed down), a wildlife rehabilitation center, and provided for AZA and non-AZA zoos for a long time - started before I was even born to be honest. While most of my experience base - both "professionally" and privately is with large felids, I do and have worked with many animal species. 

I went to college for Animal Management and Zoo Animal Technology - it's an A.A.S. from a college in the northern portion of NY State. My advisor was the (used to be until he became a professor) veterinarian of the Toronto Zoo in Canada. Through the program we worked hands on in the field in virtually every zoo in NYS. These zoos include and are not limited to the Bronx Zoo, Central Park Zoo, Buffalo Zoo, Seneca Park Zoo, Rosamond Gifford Zoo, NYS Zoo - all of which carry or carried an AZA accreditation at that time (2005-2007). I currently work for a professional zoo in NY that i'm going to leave un-named (at their request) caring for BOP, Bats, Skunks, NAP, Flying Squirrels, Eastern Milksnakes, Wood Turtles, Eastern Box Turtles, Eastern Hognose Snake, Black Rat Snake, Timber Rattler, Copperhead, Hellbender, Mudpuppy, Banded Killifish, Long-Eared Sunfish, Ermine, Grey Tree Frogs, Honey Bees, and a few other education animals. I was also the swing keeper not long before I acquired my own section caring for Wolverine, NARO, Fisher, American Black Bear, Grey Wolves, Golden Eagles, Bald Eagles, Mountain Lion, Bobcats, Canada Lynx, Farm stock, Elk, Bald Eagles, Ravens, and Snowy Owls.

I also own my own Wildlife Center called Fragile Planet Wildlife. You can look us up online if you want but the website is a disaster as it's currently being taken down little by little. It's ran by me and my partner solely. At home we care for Saltwater Corals, Fish, Alligator Snapping Turtle, Walking Sticks, P. Terribilis, P. Vitattus, American Alligator, Brazilian Ocelot, Scarlet Macaw, Double Yellow Head Amazon, Chinchilla, Egyptian Spiny Mice, Asian Water Monitor, BT Skinks, Ball Pythons, Sinaloan Milksnakes, Emu, Mute Swan, Australian Black Swan, Shelduck, Barnacle Geese, Cochin Chickens, Micro Mini Pig, and English Lop Rabbit. I'm sure there is more I missed and I didn't include the rehab animals. We carry a Class "C" USDA License (the same one any zoo has), Class 2 Wildlife Rehabilitation License, and an Educational Threatened and Endangered Species License through the NYS DEC. 

To name a few other facilities i've studied and trained at: Tulsa Zoo, Montreal Biodome, Toronto Zoo, National Zoo, Adirondack Animal Land, Wild Heart Ranch Wildlife Clinic, Village Vet Exotic Animal Clinic, and the Boston Aquarium. 

So now that you all know the "imperative" things about me - i'm not just some dumbass that doesn't know anything. I'm actually a pretty smart guy with a lot of knowledge and experience under his belt for being just 25 years old. The only thing left for any of you to know is my personal life - and being gay shouldn't have any bearing on this shit i've gone threw to get to where I am - so we won't touch that one. 

Hope this helps all you who wanted to attack and slander me...


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

BrianWI said:


> This, even superficially, doesnt look like a "quick cash" hobby. I would assume most fail in that effort, no?


Hardly. I could go to Panama, easily collect 100 the Nicki pumilio population in a day and probably easily sell them for $300-$500 each. I could make $30K-$50K from a day's work. If that is not the definition of "quick cash" then I don't know what is.

There have been plenty of instances of frog flipping as well. There are plenty of people who try for quick cash because you have small, high value animals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CJW said:


> Not to sound repetitive on the eco nut front but, it is quick cash for smugglers


And as you have noted, it can easily be quick cash for smugglers and for vendors who are laundering the frogs for the smugglers... If for example word got out someone had some of the banded histrionicus populations or even lehmanni, they would all be sold in a relatively short time even at high prices. Auratus are easy to launder into the pet trade, they have been imported pretty consistently for more than 20 years and have been bred in captivity since at least since the late 1970s. 

Ed


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

Ed said:


> I may misunderstanding what you are saying, and if so, please excuse it..
> Actually, the dendrobatids in the hobby and those at zoos are not suitable for release or repatriation in any form (and this is the same for the studbook azureus (which is being managed for long-term population viability and not potential release or repatriation)).



This is true of frogs, I suppose in my mind I was referencing repopulation efforts in other species. My mistake


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Probably the weirdest thing to pick out of your post...

Why are you pulling the website down?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> I meant for those posting here hoping to make $$$. For the smugglers, $1.75 is probably a good weekly salary.
> 
> I thought those orange isopods were a money maker. I wanted some for my viv. $1 a piece plus shipping! But now that I am trying to keep even a small supply going for all my critter tanks, I understand why!


Obviously you missed the suspicious origin Obligates that were posted on here for $500 plus a pair earlier this summer, before the ads were pulled by the Mods.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

MonarchzMan said:


> Hardly. I could go to Panama, easily collect 100 the Nicki pumilio population in a day and probably easily sell them for $300-$500 each. I could make $30K-$50K from a day's work. If that is not the definition of "quick cash" then I don't know what is.
> 
> There have been plenty of instances of frog flipping as well. There are plenty of people who try for quick cash because you have small, high value animals.


I would think there are very few people able to do that. I was thinking that jacobi was talking more along the lines of people coming here hoping to raise dart frogs in their bedroom for a quick buck.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

I am pulling the website down because i'd rather spend more time enjoying my hobby and investing more time into my animals than marketing for programs that keep my busy and away...


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

BrianWI said:


> I would think there are very few people able to do that. I was thinking that jacobi was talking more along the lines of people coming here hoping to raise dart frogs in their bedroom for a quick buck.


No one wanting to make a quick buck is going to waste time raising frogs. The longer they hold onto them, the less money they will be making.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

If people want to know the truth as to why I do what I do - it's because I love doing it. Nothing more, nothing less. In MOST (not all) cases the majority of animals I raise I give away because it's not the money that means stuff to us, its the love, passion, and dedication - on top of making invaluable friends in our endeavors.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

TyGuy said:


> Ok - my 2 scents! Asking for validation in the manner in which it was asked seemed a bit snarky - and at the time of the question. However, I am a nosy person by nature and like to know people's backgrounds a little myself - however, I generally like to ask those questions on a "lighter note". It's also my experience with keeping animals in general that the "old ways" can and tend to be much different than the "new ways" and there is often confrontation at that point. So if Brian feels that he's not being attacked, it's his obligation to tell or not to tell - I know many scientists who don't throw out their titles or degrees to just anybody questioning them. But, maybe in a later conversation when things cool down a bit (should they cool down), Brian would probably be more apt to discuss his educational background.
> 
> Apparently there are a lot of questions as to who I am and what I do, etc, etc...so here you are because I have nothing to hide. I don't ask for approval - the approval of people that have no bearing in my life means nothing to me - so keep your snarky comments to yourself if you have any. I came here because I was told this was the "go-to" place for information, so here I am and just caught in the center of the drama-feud that some don't seem to want to let go.
> 
> ...


Sorry if we were rude, we are a small community that is suspicious.......due to the number of people who show up, obviously trying to make money in a hurry, ask all kinds of questions, argue with people like Ed (who always provides citations and sources for his arguments) if they don't like what he says, and then exit with a "collection sale" ad 6 months later. Since that is apparently not going to be you, Welcome!


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

illinoisfrogs said:


> Sorry if we were rude, we are a small community that is suspicious.......due to the number of people who show up, obviously trying to make money in a hurry, ask all kinds of questions, argue with people like Ed (who always provides citations and sources for his arguments) if they don't like what he says, and then exit with a "collection sale" ad 6 months later. Since that is apparently not going to be you, Welcome!


Thank you, I appreciate it! I feel it GREATLY inappropriate to have to go threw so much to prove oneself - but I can also understand being protective of the hobby as well. If I were to say anything about the situation - give people a little bit of a break and handle the situation more gently - not so abrasively. But other than that - I love and enjoy this group very much, and it's been a world of help!


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

TyGuy said:


> If people want to know the truth as to why I do what I do - it's because I love doing it. Nothing more, nothing less. In MOST (not all) cases the majority of animals I raise I give away because it's not the money that means stuff to us, its the love, passion, and dedication - on top of making invaluable friends in our endeavors.


And your not alone....but we as a hobby have to remember where they came from, at least before we kill any more populations...


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

I guess I am used to most thing being invisible if they don't have a website.

I like almost every animal you have. The hognose may be my favorite snake, with the whole "bluff than play dead" routine.

This spring I picked up an common snapper off the road so it wouldn't get hit, Maybe a 20lber. I took it to the river to throw in and there was the biggest wild alligator snapper I ever saw. Had to be over 150lbs. I am pretty far north for their range! Way cool.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Then try and dedicate yourself to working with a frog like Hyloxalus azureiventris over the next 10-15 yrs. and try to get it better established within the hobby.


Off topic but an opportunity none the less ... this is what im hoping to accomplish with the group i currently have.


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## TxFrogWrangler (Jun 14, 2012)

Wow!!! We have a new frogger coming on to ask a very very simple and innocent question, which I am sure marcus breece,pat Nabors,stew and peppers once asked fellow hobbyist! 11 pages he gets back of bs ignorance! Yet its too late and this hobby is beyond stable and set to make room for who knows...the next peppers maybe? But we will never know because he won't be given a chance right outta the gate! Who in the hell are we to tell anyone what he can do and what he shouldnt?!? Last I heard....breece worked out of a spare bedroom and stumbled upon a connection down south....why would this guy be any different? T y
Do what ever you feel is good,right and fun for you....if you don't make it....brother, you're not the first! It'll just be a learning experience


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

TxFrogWrangler said:


> Wow!!! We have a new frogger coming on to ask a very very simple and innocent question, which I am sure marcus breece,pat Nabors,stew and peppers once asked fellow hobbyist! 11 pages he gets back of bs ignorance! Yet its too late and this hobby is beyond stable and set to make room for who knows...the next peppers maybe? But we will never know because he won't be given a chance right outta the gate! Who in the hell are we to tell anyone what he can do and what he shouldnt?!? Last I heard....breece worked out of a spare bedroom and stumbled upon a connection down south....why would this guy be any different? T y
> Do what ever you feel is good,right and fun for you....if you don't make it....brother, you're not the first! It'll just be a learning experience


Thank you VERY much for the support and backing - I greatly appreciate it! You know, I started out like this with cats and people questioned me - and because i've done so well and actually work hard at what I do I was eventually given an ocelot cub - which in the exotic hobby, is almost unheard of unless you're something special/good...so I pride myself in what I do and that's what matters!


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

Gamble said:


> Off topic but an opportunity none the less ... this is what im hoping to accomplish with the group i currently have.


I have a group of these at work, they are awesome little frogs!


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Is there an ignore feature on this site?


Yes ... its under the "User CP" tab.

Then go to "Edit Ignore List"


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

this post went way off topic. this guy bashing that guy. nothing to do with tys post. even a mod bashing ty. real profesional guys. 
this group is a click. not a board for frogs. " hey this new guy said something about wild caughts lets gang up on him." 
best thing for you ty is just lurk. shouldn't one of the first posts be what is your knowledge on this subject. wonder how many people clicked on eds link about ty,i did.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I agree, this post was a bad example of what this forum truly has to offer, which is a vast amount of knowledge and information. 

As im reading it & shaking my head in disbelief, i couldnt help but think, "wow, this guy never even had a chance".

While some may have had some valid points, the way it was constructed as a whole was a little less tactful then i, and im sure many others, wouldve preferred.

Its unfortunate, bc if a newcomer to the hobby had just created their account and this was the first post they happened to read, it may have scared them away from asking for any help at all, and in the long term, could potentially be bad for their frogs.

I know many people who have also stated that sometimes, the "clickiness" of this board makes itself apparent, to the point that some now have to pick and choose as to what things they will post or not post based on the amount of criticism or backlash it will receive, or as you stated, they watch but do not participate. How does that help our hobby? 

People should be entitled to voice their opinions as they feel, and say whats on their mind without fear of consequence if their opinions differ from the majority.
I see statements of the hobby being about "questioning" and sometimes "thinking outside the box", but yet when its done outside of what a small group believes to be ideal its considered to be wrong and that person has to suffer the consequences whether that be right or wrong.

Im seeing new members attacking new members, new members attacking old members, old members attacking new members ... and while it doesnt occur too often, it shouldnt happen all. Even the minor infractions could cause a new person to turn away and just possibly that person couldve been the next Sean Stewart, Mark Pepper, Patrick Nabors ... etc. 

Sometimes people react way too quickly to things they may not agree with. 

This isnt my hobby, or your hobby, or joe schmoes thats been here for years ... this is OUR hobby ... Kyle may have created the forum, but EVERYONE here has contributed something. All of the posts and information werent created by one person or just 10 people, but everyone that is a member. I look at everyone in the hobby as "family" to a certain extent bc it is such a small, niche hobby and all we have is eachother for support and help. We shouldnt tear eachother down, we should be building eachother up, and for the most part thats what we do here. Its the essence of what makes this hobby special. The friendships, the comradery, the brotherhood. The feeling of being a part of something bigger than ourselves. 

Im sure Kyle created this forum for the wealth of knowledge and to help educate others about our hobby, and all too often it turns into a d*** measuring contest instead of maintaining focus on why we are all here in the first place

... our frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> years ... this is OUR hobby ... Kyle may have created the forum, but EVERYONE here has contributed something. All of the posts and information werent created by one person or just 10 people, but everyone that is a member.


 
Point of fact, while Kyle has remade the forum into his own image, he did not create it from scratch. The forum was created by Joe Hickson, and when he wanted to move on, Kyle took over ownership and kept the site running for which I and many others are grateful. 

Some comments

Ed


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ty,

Let me start of by apologizing if anything I said on this thread may have made you uncomfortable. To give you a little background that may better explain some of the drama, in the last few months an "Expert" appeared on this forum, making claims about things like fruit fly nutrition and the use of waste water. Not only do his claims fly in the face of science, but if followed can have disastrous effects to the frogs in people's personal collections. When repeatedly questioned on his experience level and relevant degrees to see if his statements are based on real life experience or conjecture, this expert has evaded, insulted and attempted to change the topic every step of the way.

As an old timer having worked with reptiles and amphibians since the late 70's, I see forums like these as a double edged sword. It is great that you have tons of information at your finger tips to draw upon whenever the need arises, but on the other hand it is also lousy since there is no way to easily verify the competence level of the person providing the information. My suggestion is to get involved at the local level and seek out members in you area who's husbandry methods you can see first hand. There is nothing like seeing someone's collection to determine whether or not the advice they offer has value.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed said:


> Point of fact, while Kyle has remade the forum into his own image, he did not create it from scratch. The forum was created by Joe Hickson, and when he wanted to move on, Kyle took over ownership and kept the site running for which I and many others are grateful.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


ed beat me to it. i knew of the original 3 who started this forum. and as ed stated kyle just took it over after the 3 had a life to lead and db wasn't part of it. it did though take off after kykle was the head honcho.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> Point of fact, while Kyle has remade the forum into his own image, he did not create it from scratch. The forum was created by Joe Hickson, and when he wanted to move on, Kyle took over ownership and kept the site running for which I and many others are grateful.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


As a newer member,
I was unaware of the circumstances and i appreciate the correction.

Thx Ed & Walt.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Ty,
> 
> Let me start of by apologizing if anything I said on this thread may have made you uncomfortable. To give you a little background that may better explain some of the drama, in the last few months an "Expert" appeared on this forum, making claims about things like fruit fly nutrition and the use of waste water. Not only do his claims fly in the face of science, but if followed can have disastrous effects to the frogs in people's personal collections. When repeatedly questioned on his experience level and relevant degrees to see if his statements are based on real life experience or conjecture, this expert has evaded, insulted and attempted to change the topic every step of the way.
> 
> As an old timer having worked with reptiles and amphibians since the late 70's, I see forums like these as a double edged sword. It is great that you have tons of information at your finger tips to draw upon whenever the need arises, but on the other hand it is also lousy since there is no way to easily verify the competence level of the person providing the information. My suggestion is to get involved at the local level and seek out members in you area who's husbandry methods you can see first hand. There is nothing like seeing someone's collection to determine whether or not the advice they offer has value.



Tyler...

I think you can see, some will NEVER stop. There are a couple you just have to ignore for the troublemakers they are.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Ed said:


> Point of fact, while Kyle has remade the forum into his own image, he did not create it from scratch. The forum was created by Joe Hickson, and when he wanted to move on, Kyle took over ownership and kept the site running for which I and many others are grateful.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I'd like to think I was part of that creation there, Ed ; )

Walt- I'm still around, albeit I'll go for years without posting. 

Ty- 

Nice to have you on the board. Perhaps importing frogs is not a good beginner topic.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Tyler...
> 
> *I think you can see, some will NEVER stop.* There are a couple you just have to ignore for the troublemakers they are.


You are right. Some of us will Never stop correcting misinformation when we see it. Deal with it


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Tyler,

I may have missed it. Do you have some darts now or decided which you will get?


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Skipping past all the off topic crud...the guy seems to be fairly legit. I think he has given enough experience in captive animals to warrant the interest in his question. Maybe in 20 years he will have a program worthy of respect like UE or other conservation/breeder. I will voice my support for you 

P.S. 4 beers, 6 shots of vodka, and a pain pill make this forum less abrasive. (That is a joke and not a real recommendation for anyone taking that statement as advice)


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

I love me some Chopin.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

andersonii85 said:


> I'd like to think I was part of that creation there, Ed ; )


I kept it simple....  

Ed


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Gamble said:


> People should be entitled to voice their opinions as they feel, and say whats on their mind without fear of consequence if their opinions differ from the majority.


Although I'll agree it could have been more tactful, that's what people were doing, voicing their opinions about a person brand new to darts wanting to import them. Whether you agree with them or not, that's all they were doing.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

illinoisfrogs said:


> Although I'll agree it could have been more tactful, that's what people were doing, voicing their opinions about a person brand new to darts wanting to import them. Whether you agree with them or not, that's all they were doing.


Theres a difference between voicing opinions maturely and a discussion becoming a total pissing match ... ill let you decide which one was the case in this instance.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

^^^^^^^^
Agreed!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

BrianWI said:


> Tyler...
> 
> I think you can see, some will NEVER stop. There are a couple you just have to ignore for the troublemakers they are.


Stop what? He apologized and explained where he was coming from and why people appear to be on edge, And then explained his personal experience in the hobby. Some of your posts, like this one, seem very pointless and are only meant to stir the pot...


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

thedude said:


> Stop what? He apologized and explained where he was coming from and why people appear to be on edge, And then explained his personal experience in the hobby. Some of your posts, like this one, seem very pointless and are only meant to stir the pot...


Sure... if you ignore the fact he was using it to make a insult toward me. But, you'd have to purposely have blinders on to miss that. So, maybe you are stirring the pot?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> Sure... if you ignore the fact he was using it to make a insult toward me. But, you'd have to purposely have blinders on to miss that. So, maybe you are stirring the pot?


*To give you a little background that may better explain some of the drama, in the last few months an "Expert" appeared on this forum, making claims about things like fruit fly nutrition and the use of waste water. Not only do his claims fly in the face of science, but if followed can have disastrous effects to the frogs in people's personal collections. When repeatedly questioned on his experience level and relevant degrees to see if his statements are based on real life experience or conjecture, this expert has evaded, insulted and attempted to change the topic every step of the way.*


If you feel that the above is an insult towards you then perhaps you may want to stop making unsubstantiated claims, or provide some background information on your dart related experience and relevant scientific background


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Seriously, can this thread get any more PATHETIC.
I don`t know if I should laugh, cry or bark at the freakin moon after reading this.
WTF People.

John


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

Yeah, dont you guys have another thread for that?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Seriously, can this thread get any more PATHETIC.
> I don`t know if I should laugh, cry or bark at the freakin moon after reading this.
> WTF People.
> 
> John


I think the mods are on vacation, John.  JK Don't ban me!


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I don`t know if I should laugh, cry or bark at the freakin moon after reading this.


My vote:


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

BrianWI said:


> Tyler,
> 
> I may have missed it. Do you have some darts now or decided which you will get?


Yes - Have "Orange" P. Terribilis and P. Vitattus at the moment. I have D. Leucomelas, D. Tinct (bakhuis and citronella) on the way...


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

For those that stuck up for me, gave me the answers I was looking for, and bit their tongue when they probably wanted to shoot me - I thank you for your support and suggestions. I think its great that SOME people in here are relatively respectful and forgiving in their nature to deal with the "noobs" that apparently aren't welcome very often. 

With that - i'm importing 10 different species of frogs and selling them on the black market! (JOKING BTW! Just throwing at those who treated me like a pile of shit in the beginning) I am more responsible than that


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

TyGuy said:


> For those that stuck up for me, gave me the answers I was looking for, and bit their tongue when they probably wanted to shoot me - I thank you for your support and suggestions. I think its great that SOME people in here are relatively respectful and forgiving in their nature to deal with the "noobs" that apparently aren't welcome very often.
> 
> With that - i'm importing 10 different species of frogs and selling them on the black market! (JOKING BTW! Just throwing at those who treated me like a pile of shit in the beginning) I am more responsible than that


LOL!

Sounds like you are jumping in with both feet. However, with the varied experience you have had, probably is small potatoes.

I have just a couple azureus. I wasn't breeding them (plus, it is hard to do with 2 males), but I am considering it, looking for a female.


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