# Wanting to get into this hobby could use some help.



## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

Hello all.
My name is Mike. I have always been into Reptiles but after a buddy showed me his friends Dart Frogs i was hooked. I would love to start this new hobby.

I have been reading everything i could on these little guys and then i found this forum and i figured id join and ask around.

Right now i have 55gal glass open topped tank sitting in my basement. Is this a good size take for dart frogs? (i read 1 frog for every 5-10 gal is this true? only think i want 4-5) What kind of substrate layers should i use? Should i put in a waterfall and if so how and should i make it or buy one? Im pretty good with my hands so id like to make it but not sure how to go at it.

What kind of plants would be good. What kind of Moss can you use?

Can you mix Dendrobates auratus. The blue and black and the green and black? or with Dendrobates leucomelas the yellow and black. i love these colors just wanted to know what you can do with different species.

So im new to this hobby and dont want to screw it up and im willing to read anything i need to before i buy theses frogs. So if i could get some help that would be great.

Thanks for the help,

Mike


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

A 55 gallon is more than big enough.  As far as plants goes, you can use pretty much any tropical plant, especially in a tank that size. Your best bet would be to check out the forum sponsors websites and take a look at the plants they offer. They have taken alot of the guess work out and offer great deals on vivarium suitable plants. 
For the substrate, you will generally want to go with a false-bottom setup. To get an idea how to do this, just search the forums for the terms: 'false-bottom' and you will get alot of results. I'd post some links for ya but instead of doing my EMT class work, I'm posting stuff here on the forums.  
For soil substrate, there is a variety of mixes or recipes you can use and everyone seems to have their own preference. The most commonly used is long fiber sphagnum moss mixed with coco fibers. You can search for ABG mix and you should be able to find the recipe for that. I personally mix long fiber sphagnum moss, ground coco husk, and fir bark. I place this in a 2-3" layer over the drainage layer which consist of a 3" layer of leca (expanded clay pellets) and divide the 2 layers with weed guard mesh. I also tend to top the substrate off with long fiber sphagnum moss (after planting) to keep the mess down as frogs tend to track the coco husk around and make a mess with it.
For moss, there is a variety of species you can use though some will give better growth results than others. Mosses can be tricky or easy to grow, depending on your lighting and how moist the substrate is. You can also search the forums for mosses as well and you will find a wealth of info on this as well.
You do not have to have a water feature (drip wall, waterfall, etc.) though, when done well they provide a natural aesthetic and can help keep the humidity up (I find this easy to do from daily spraying/misting alone). Just make sure that 80-100% of your vivarium top is covered with glass to retain the humidity.
Now, on to the frogs. Mixing species is something that should be left to the advanced and experienced keepers and it generally isn't practiced heavily. You mentioned that you wish to keep several color forms of auratus together. This can be done but you MUST make sure that you are keeping all the same sex together when doing so. I say this because you run the risk of hybridizing or crossing morphs...a practice that is shameful and frowned on in the hobby. I'm not trying to come off harsh here, but we have very high standards and guidelines that we, as a community, uphold. Hybridizing has no place in the dendrobate keeping hobby. If you are looking into forming a community tank, leucs would be a GREAT species to go with...they are bold and do great in groups. Auratus tend to be on the shy side and like to take flight and hide when disturbed. Another great species to consider are tincs. They come in many different forms and do ok in groups provided they have enough room. A 55 gallon should comfortably house a trio of these.


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## Chicago Frog Man (Mar 5, 2009)

Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: General Frog Information

Josh’s Frogs How-To Guides Welcome to Josh’s Frogs How-To Guides

These might help some. Do a keyword search here too, I think just about every topic has been covered at one point or another. Good luck!


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## pearldrums2 (Dec 9, 2009)

I can vouch for Josh's Frogs they are a great vendor to order from and he has awesome customer service and very high quality!!!


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Here is a good source of info,

*Poison Dart Frogs* by Amanda and Greg Sihler


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

frogmanroth said:


> Here is a good source of info,
> 
> *Poison Dart Frogs* by Amanda and Greg Sihler


I second that recommendation. Also, make sure and read both of the "sticky" threads at the top of the beginner forum to save yourself some heartaches. 55 gal is a great size and there is a lot you can do with it.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

frogmanroth said:


> Here is a good source of info,
> 
> *Poison Dart Frogs* by Amanda and Greg Sihler


 
yep....buy that book used for @ 8.00 on Amazon.com

Best beginner book on darts out there hand down....


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## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

Wow guys thanks for the fast replies. 

Ill defiantly try and find that book since so many of you have recommended it. I found joshes frogs last night after i posted and watched a vid about springtails as a feeder insect and as a way to get ride of mold and fungus. But I haven’t read anywhere else about using springtails. what do you think??

So you suggested leucs these are the Yellow and Black ones correct? I really like the idea that these are bold would love to see them moving around. How many of these would you keep in a 55 gal. Since you said they are great in groups.

I understand about the non-mixing of species and getting crazy breeds of frogs. Just loved the colors that all these little guys come in haha. But if i did mix them would you do males or females? but really like the idea of breeding and having a large group.

Is breeding these frogs easy?

Thanks,
Mike


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

Stork141 said:


> So you suggested leucs these are the Yellow and Black ones correct? I really like the idea that these are bold would love to see them moving around. How many of these would you keep in a 55 gal. Since you said they are great in groups.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike


I am currently keeping three in a 55 gal tank. Personally Id keep 3-5 in one


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

....and where might you be from?
If you don`t mind me asking, that is.

John


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## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

Ok thanks that helps. Now would you just buy 3-5 from a breeder or do you buy a certain amount of males and females?

I live in Michigan. So 4 season warm summer cold winter blah i know.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Join this group:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/groups/michigan-dendrobatid-group.html

Check out the locations of the members, PM them, ask about stuff....attend local meetings and shows.


easy peasy Japanesy


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Just shoot me a pm with your email, and I'll add you to the mailing list for the Michigan Dendrobatid Group. 

Next meeting should be towards the end of next month.


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

Stork141 said:


> Ok thanks that helps. Now would you just buy 3-5 from a breeder or do you buy a certain amount of males and females?
> 
> I live in Michigan. So 4 season warm summer cold winter blah i know.



I dont think there is a certain ratio of sexes to keep. Personally the leucs I have are unsexed right now.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Stork141 said:


> I understand about the non-mixing of species and getting crazy breeds of frogs. Just loved the colors that all these little guys come in haha. But if i did mix them would you do males or females? but really like the idea of breeding and having a large group.
> 
> Is breeding these frogs easy?
> 
> ...


not to beat a dead horse here, but this should be avoided. there is no real way to tell what sex a frog is until you see it physically call or lay eggs. so you cant order males/ females per-say one way of getting around keeping both together is to split your 55. there are a few threads on how some have split the 55 which works very well since it has that nice brace in the middle. if you keep them together, you will need to kill (cull) ALL offspring. search mixing and you'll get some idea of the general attitude towards it. its generally something that EVERYONE wants to do when they first get frogs, and all but the most stubborn teenagers tend to come around. so dont take offense, its a VERY common Q, that is VERY frequently answered. on a side note, mixing 2 morphs of the same frog is probably the WORST type of mixing, since they can be so similar and therefore difficult to tell differences.

james

welcome to the addiction.


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## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks I understand completely and I believe I have come around im not a "stubborn teen" anymore ha. I come from a reptile background so mixing different morphs inset bad it’s actually very cool to do. But with every hobby there are different rules and im more then happy to learn and obey so thank you. I think I would like to not split my 55 and keep a large colony of frogs.

I asked this in the last reply but I think it was hidden by my obsession of wanting to mix breeds. So in joshes frogs they talk about keeping springtails in the tank as a feeder insect and as a natural eco system does any one do this??

Thanks,
Mike


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i think now most everyone does this, and not just with springtails. there are also woodlice, mites, and other naturally occurring stuff, and others that are fed but not added. they are great for smaller frogs and help as snacks for bigger ones like your talking about getting. it helps add variety to their diet, and they seem to enjoy them.

james


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## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

Ok thanks I just wasn’t really sure what to think about adding things into the substrate seemed like a good idea to me with the whole natural eco system but I just wanted to make sure.

So my next question is lighting? I have read alot of different things about this. What kind of lighting do you have to use. Do you need UVA/UVB?

Another things is the water I asked about waterfalls and I was told its up to me doesn’t really matter. I think im gona see if I can make it work. My question is how deep can the water be if I make a little pod at the end. Can it be deep, can dart frogs swim, and should it be shallow?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

for lighting i prefer the screw type compact florescents in the "daylight" spectrum (6500K) they work well , are very cheap and produce little heat (comparatively).
no UV is needed. and uv wont penetrate glass anyway. just a waste IMO.

as far as water features, in a tank that size its fine, but you should keep the water shallow and without any vertical area that the frog could get stuck from. gradual slopes into all areas of the water are highly recommended. also adding an access to your pump, or running the pump from outside the tank are GOOD ideas, since what was a nice waterfall when the tank was started, may be a dry baron piece of rock in a few months. (expect it to fail no matter how well its made)

james


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

As far as lighting, for a 55 gallon, a 4 foot shoplight with two bulbs should be sufficient (I like the $10 models from Home Depot). For bulbs, stick to the 6500K 'daylight' T8s. 

You could do 2 fixtures - one with one bulb on for 12 hours, then another with 2 bulbs that comes on an hour later and turns off an hour earlier than the other fixture. All of my frogs (including 16 leucs) really seem to be active during the dawn/dusk period.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

zBrinks said:


> As far as lighting, for a 55 gallon, a 4 foot shoplight with two bulbs should be sufficient (I like the $10 models from Home Depot). For bulbs, stick to the 6500K 'daylight' T8s.
> 
> You could do 2 fixtures - one with one bulb on for 12 hours, then another with 2 bulbs that comes on an hour later and turns off an hour earlier than the other fixture. All of my frogs (including 16 leucs) really seem to be active during the dawn/dusk period.


haha i forgot that a 55 in 48 in. 

i second what zbrinks said. 4ft shop light with 6500K bulbs are probably your best choice.

james


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## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

Oh i must be wrong then my tank is 36x18x18 its a 50 gal sorry for the confusion. So just daylight bulbs will work fine.


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## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

In a tank that size and wanting a group, I would go with leucs. Tincs are usually kept in pairs. I personally love starting with younger frogs and watching them mature. Which means starting with unsexed frogs. 

Welcome aboard.


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## waterbed fred (Jan 10, 2010)

o.k....pay attention......

friday night go to the grocery store. get 2- 12 packs of mountain dew, 6 monster energy drinks, a case of your favorite snack food, 10 jack links beef jerky packs and some chocolate. get home quickly, dont waste time!!! lock the doors, pull the drapes shut, unplug the phone, and fill up the dog food bowls. log on to dendroboard. use the search funtion and you will find all your answers. problem is, it will lead to more questions. the vicious cycle starts......you should be finished by late sunday night!
thats how i learned what i need to know. this website has NEVER FAILED to provide an answer to any of my questions. the best part about it is that there are lots of REAL scientists from every field that you will need info on, and they just love to help with even the most complex questions. its amazing!!
good luck. oh yeah, use Rhoto brand eye drops. that helps after the 30th hour straight.


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## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

Waterbed Fred i took your advice and read everything i could. I have a couple of questions i want to do D. leucomelas and do 4-6 of them in my 50 gal. 

My question is do set up the tank horizonal or vertical (for space).

How much are D. leucomelas? i live i michigan so are they easy to get here. Have never seen them at a pet store or anything so just wondering. I have seen them priced around $45-$50 is that right?

Mike


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

yopu should be able to get leucs from someone local for 40 each or less. 
Set your viv up horizontally, but with branches and stuff so they can climb and use all the space...they will
Id do 4 or 5 in a 50


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

horizontal.

they are about $45 ea.

james


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## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

Ok thanks so horizontal it is. So should i do 4 or 5 do they like to be in pairs or is a odd number good?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

4-5 would be fine in a setup that size. I keep leucs in groups, then separate them into pairs as they age. I kept my original group of 5 in a 46g bowfront together for 2 years, and they all did just fine. I eventually got tired of egg eating, so they are kept in pairs now.

Where abouts in Michigan are you located? I'm in Lansing, and produce a ton of leucs a year. I cycle all my frogs down during the winter to give them a break, but should have plenty of leucs available over summer. Josh (joshsfrogs.com) should have some ready to go pretty soon - he's located in Owosso.

If you ever want to stop by and check stuff out, shoot me a pm. I'm sure I could hook you up with some plants cuttings, too.


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

Where in michigan are you?


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## Stork141 (Feb 28, 2010)

I live in Holland


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