# Disinfecting wood- interesting quote..and confusion



## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

I was looking at some old threads on this forum and I came across an interesting quote from the all-knowing Ed 

"As an aside, boiling or baking or both are not adequate methods of dealing of disinfecting or sterilizing wood or bark. You have to be able to get the core temperature of the material hot enough to guarantee that all pockets and crevices are heated sufficiently and this is very difficult using the above methods."

The thing that surprises me is that it seems like 99.99% of advice for disinfecting wood is to boil and/or bake it. The reason I wanted to post this new thread about it is that I would like to know if Ed or anybody else can elaborate on the above quote, and recommend any methods for really disinfecting wood. OR if in fact they think it's even necessary..what's the point of boiling/baking if it doesn't completely work? What are we trying to remove by boiling/baking?


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

I got one, I found this long thin piece of driftwood on the river, so i cut it in half and soaked it in a 50gal bucket with other pieces of wood i found. I put a bag of pool shock in and circulated the water let it soak for 2 days. After that it sat drying in the sun for a week, then i baked all my wood in the oven at 350 for a hour and left it in overnight. 

A week later it was time to go in the viv, i cut the pieces to fit and while placing them in GIANT RED ANTS started poring out of the center of the stick, about 10 of them. This stick diameter was less than an inch, i was amazed they survived, so i snatched them up in a cup...... and fed emm to my frogs. The End lol


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The only thing that can truly work is an autoclave. Boiling and baking is pretty much considered better than nothing as most of us do not have access to an autoclave.


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## Froggyplush (Oct 28, 2011)

well i scrub the wood down first spray with bleach alot let it dry then i boiled havnt baked it yet waiting for wife to go out of town


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

so are we just better off scrubbing it down and soaking it in bleach?


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

curlykid said:


> so are we just better off scrubbing it down and soaking it in bleach?


I think I'm more comfortable with a vinegar solution... bleach scares me a little.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

i've soaked in bleach and baked. I found a nice pice of wood yesterday, a tree branch it has so much accent.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

ARGH! Get over the bleach. It still will not soak in deep enough and will NEVER rinse out. You wil not be able to get rid of 100% of the "nasties". Watch your frogs and get them tested yearly or 2. Thats the best way to make sure your frogs stay healthy.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

parkanz2 said:


> I think I'm more comfortable with a vinegar solution... bleach scares me a little.


GOOD! Bleach should scare you! It should only be used on non-porous items like rocks.
We can also soak plants in a 5% to 10% bleach solution for 5 or 10 minutes. Make sure they are full hydrated first and rinse, rinse rinse.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> I think I'm more comfortable with a vinegar solution... bleach scares me a little.


The problems with scrubbing with vinegar or bleach or any other disinfectant (and how they work is extremely varied for example vinegar to operate at it's most effective action requires 3 hours exposure at 75 F ( 24 C) (and it takes much longer the cooler it is) is that all of the protecting organics have to be removed so the disifectant can contact the organism. This is impossible with pieces of wood, cork or other organics that have cracks and crevices as the disinfectant can't penetrate into those areas to gain contact with the organisms. As was noted above, even extended periods may not reach organisms in the center of relatively narrow pieces. 

The same can be said with boiling/baking. Neither of those is likely to reach the center of the piece of wood or any deep crevices or cracks (or areas protected by damp organics) and in the mean time, the boiling/baking process is going to be destroying the structural elements of the wood/bark potentially reducing it's life in the enclosure (particularly leaf litter). (*It also needs to be noted, never ever bake rocks or other materials with pockets where pressure can build and cause it to explode* (even bamboo is a risk)). 

Materials like cork bark purchased either directly from the importer or second hand from pet stores or terrarium suppliers should not need any treatment as the load had to be fumigated under pressure before importation into the US. The gases used in those treatments are able to penetrate deeply into the material which renders them safe. Unless the pieces were used in a tank at the store or stored outside, they are safe for immediate use. This also includes any other imported woods. 

Basically these methods are a panacea of sorts as it makes you feel like your doing something to prevent unwanted organisms from moving into the tank. 

Chytrid and a number of other organisms are very sensitive to drying, so an extended drying period post washing tends to eliminate the vast majority of pest species. I tend to gather enough leaves in the fall that it allows me to let them dry for 6 months or more which is certainly long enough to eliminate the vast majority of unwanted organisms. The same can be said for collected pieces of wood, if they are allowed to fully dry then they are at little risk of bringing in unwanted organisms. 

The few times, I've found unwanted animals in my enclosures, I was able to trace them back to plant I had obtained. Now I quarantine all plants and ideally only use cuttings when adding plants although some of the orchids I want will require extra precautions to prevent unwanted additions. 

Ed


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Hey ED!
What do you think about the use of pure collodial silver to disinfect? A nice soak in it will kill everything.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well, I wouldn't suggest it as collodial silver has been losing effectivness due to all of the various non-medical usages... see for example Survival of Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis in Water: Quarantine and Disease Control Implications 

In addition, as with other disinfectives, it won't penetrate the cracks and crevices any better as the carrier is going to be restricted. If you think about it, very thin cracks and crevices can retain air pockets unless water is forced into them under pressure (autoclave). 

I would be much more concerned about introducing unwanted organisms with the plants. I tend to quarantine the plants and then use clean cuttings to populate my tanks. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed, my tree frog tank has nemerteans, even after a bleach wash of the tank to clean it out prior to re-using. You mentioned that eggs can survive under the silicone edges. I think that's what you said.

So, anyway, I'm moving them to a new tank which has been much more aggressively cleaned and has not had nemerteans. I wanted to re-use some of the wood pieces in their current tank. Nice long, thin, twisty pieces that they like to climb on. Since these pieces are going from their old tank to their new tank, my only concern is the nemerteans.

Do you think that boiling and baking these pieces will kill off the nemerteans and eggs? Since these pieces are small in diameter, they should be pretty hot to the center, I would think. 

Am I going to have to just throw all this great wood away? 

Thanks


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> I tend to quarantine the plants and then use clean cuttings to populate my tanks.
> 
> Ed


As do I. I think this is the best idea. You can then have that plant forever and take numerous cuttings.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

This is totally the way to go. Besides, cuttings adapt much better than adult ants that have been used to specific conditions.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Ed said:


> The problems with scrubbing with vinegar or bleach or any other disinfectant (and how they work is extremely varied for example vinegar to operate at it's most effective action requires 3 hours exposure at 75 F ( 24 C) (and it takes much longer the cooler it is) is that all of the protecting organics have to be removed so the disifectant can contact the organism. This is impossible with pieces of wood, cork or other organics that have cracks and crevices as the disinfectant can't penetrate into those areas to gain contact with the organisms. As was noted above, even extended periods may not reach organisms in the center of relatively narrow pieces.
> 
> The same can be said with boiling/baking. Neither of those is likely to reach the center of the piece of wood or any deep crevices or cracks (or areas protected by damp organics) and in the mean time, the boiling/baking process is going to be destroying the structural elements of the wood/bark potentially reducing it's life in the enclosure (particularly leaf litter). (*It also needs to be noted, never ever bake rocks or other materials with pockets where pressure can build and cause it to explode* (even bamboo is a risk)).
> 
> ...


Ed, I'd like to make sure I am understanding you. Are you saying you 100% do NOT recommend anyone ever boil or bake wood due to (1) Its ineffectiveness at truly disinfecting/eliminating pests and (2) it's detrimental effect on the structure/longevity of the wood? The reason why I would like to clarify this is a really feel like this is an important point for everyone to know.

What you are saying totally makes sense, and the most frustrating thing is that I think people are giving out false/bad advise on a regular basis regarding this topic. If you go to any relevant forum (even this one) and post a new thread about disinfecting wood, I can almost guarantee you that multiple, and even most, people will say "boil and/or bake the wood".

It seems that the trend of posts on this thread is that boiling/baking is actually not necessary or effective, and that soaking in disinfectant is the same and even worse. I think that this is important information that is hidden amongst a heap of other, incorrect info. I might even suggest this thread be a sticky thread.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have a big autoclave at work that gets everything up to 121 degrees C that I put driftwood in. Obviously not a reality for most people, but so handy for me. I do my leaf litter in there too


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flyingSquirrel said:


> Ed, I'd like to make sure I am understanding you. Are you saying you 100% do NOT recommend anyone ever boil or bake wood due to (1) Its ineffectiveness at truly disinfecting/eliminating pests and (2) it's detrimental effect on the structure/longevity of the wood? The reason why I would like to clarify this is a really feel like this is an important point for everyone to know.


Basically what I'm saying is that I don't do that for the reasons I've pointed out and if you hadn't brought my name up I would have shaken my head and moved right by the thread since I've given up pointing out the fallacy in those home remedies for disinfecting wood, bark and leaves. 

The information has been presented multiple times and people continually boil, bake etc the wood regardless of efficacy..... it is up to them if they want to engage in what is effectivelly a useless practice so I'm not recommending anything. 



flyingSquirrel said:


> What you are saying totally makes sense, and the most frustrating thing is that I think people are giving out false/bad advise on a regular basis regarding this topic. If you go to any relevant forum (even this one) and post a new thread about disinfecting wood, I can almost guarantee you that multiple, and even most, people will say "boil and/or bake the wood".
> 
> It seems that the trend of posts on this thread is that boiling/baking is actually not necessary or effective, and that soaking in disinfectant is the same and even worse. I think that this is important information that is hidden amongst a heap of other, incorrect info. I might even suggest this thread be a sticky thread.


Regardless of whether or not it is bad information people consistently ignore the issues with the practice and follow through with the attempt... I've got more than my hands full just dealing with nutritonal issues (which I think have been the bulk of my posts) that are backed by hard data. If you want to take that mission on, be my guest. 

Ed


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

flyingSquirrel said:


> Ed, I'd like to make sure I am understanding you. Are you saying you 100% do NOT recommend anyone ever boil or bake wood due to (1) Its ineffectiveness at truly disinfecting/eliminating pests and (2) it's detrimental effect on the structure/longevity of the wood? The reason why I would like to clarify this is a really feel like this is an important point for everyone to know.
> 
> What you are saying totally makes sense, and the most frustrating thing is that I think people are giving out false/bad advise on a regular basis regarding this topic. If you go to any relevant forum (even this one) and post a new thread about disinfecting wood, I can almost guarantee you that multiple, and even most, people will say "boil and/or bake the wood".
> 
> It seems that the trend of posts on this thread is that boiling/baking is actually not necessary or effective, and that soaking in disinfectant is the same and even worse. I think that this is important information that is hidden amongst a heap of other, incorrect info. I might even suggest this thread be a sticky thread.


I think... the take away point of this thread is that you can never expect to completely sterilize your wood or leaf litter (unless you have access to special equipment.) Though, I think many people will also still agree that some form of aggressive cleaning/pest killing methods are certainly not a bad thing to do.

Also important to note that there may be bigger concerns such as pests coming in on live plants. I'll still clean anything that goes into my tanks to the best of my ability with the knowledge that I am not necessarily highly effective at it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Ed, my tree frog tank has nemerteans, even after a bleach wash of the tank to clean it out prior to re-using. You mentioned that eggs can survive under the silicone edges. I think that's what you said.
> 
> So, anyway, I'm moving them to a new tank which has been much more aggressively cleaned and has not had nemerteans. I wanted to re-use some of the wood pieces in their current tank. Nice long, thin, twisty pieces that they like to climb on. Since these pieces are going from their old tank to their new tank, my only concern is the nemerteans.
> 
> ...


If there were loose edges to the sealer on the tank then it is easily possible that the nemerteans were able to avoid the bleach under or in the sealer and then repopulate the tank. 

Unless you can autoclave the wood or let it dry for a significant period of time (months to a year or more), you may be better off discarding it... See the comment above on the ants in the wood as they survived an hour in the oven at 350 F.....in addition to the other measures taken the by the poster. The problem with nemerteans is that they are extremely invasive between cages and there are multiple routes that they can take from cage to cage. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks Ed. Oh well, out it goes. Can't wait to get that tank broken down and cleaned out. I really hate those worms.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> I think... the take away point of this thread is that you can never expect to completely sterilize your wood or leaf litter (unless you have access to special equipment.) Though, I think many people will also still agree that some form of aggressive cleaning/pest killing methods are certainly not a bad thing to do.
> 
> Also important to note that there may be bigger concerns such as pests coming in on live plants. I'll still clean anything that goes into my tanks to the best of my ability with the knowledge that I am not necessarily highly effective at it.


A through scrubbing with a stiff brush is probably the most aggressive successful thing you can do with wood, and cork... this in addition to either using wood that has been sterilized through fumigation (during import) and not in contact with other animals. The next best thing you can do it is to throughly allow collected woods to dry out in a dry enviroment (keep in mind these things don't have to sink in the water....) for an extended period of time. 

Live plants particularly those aquired from someone else's enclosure are probably the greatest risk of unwanted things in the tank. From one vendor, I aquired both snails and slugs from thier plants that made it into the tanks despite a dip in disinfectant (needless to say I never ordered from them again). People need to also realize that bromeliads and other plants where the leaves are held tight to the plant, provide shelter from the disinfectants as the disinfectants can't penetate the areas where the leaves are tight to the plant (think about it, if the plant can contain water, it can exclude water from where it is tight to the stem). Now virtually all of my plants are started from cuttings.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Thanks Ed. Oh well, out it goes. Can't wait to get that tank broken down and cleaned out. I really hate those worms.


One of the reasons I'm paranoid with my tanks. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Thanks Ed. Oh well, out it goes. Can't wait to get that tank broken down and cleaned out. I really hate those worms.


Stash it in the attic or the basement in a dry location until throughly dried out.... 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> Stash it in the attic or the basement in a dry location until throughly dried out....
> 
> Ed


Down here, there really are no dry locations.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Ed said:


> Basically what I'm saying is that I don't do that for the reasons I've pointed out and if you hadn't brought my name up I would have shaken my head and moved right by the thread since I've given up pointing out the fallacy in those home remedies for disinfecting wood, bark and leaves.
> 
> The information has been presented multiple times and people continually boil, bake etc the wood regardless of efficacy..... it is up to them if they want to engage in what is effectivelly a useless practice so I'm not recommending anything.
> 
> ...


Ok, I get your point now. I do appreciate your help. BTW how did you get so much knowledge about so many things?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flyingSquirrel said:


> Ok, I get your point now. I do appreciate your help. BTW how did you get so much knowledge about so many things?


1) being curious as to the why of many things and looking into the why

2)having worked for close to 19 years as a zookeeper specializing in amphibian husbandry 

3) having kept herps for more than 30 years 

4) research and trying new things.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

So...recently while walking the shores of some local lakes...I encountered some driftwood.

I picked it up, and its drying in front of my garage. 

I figured that I would later chip off any rotting wood, powerwash it, and then boil, followed by baking and then dry. 

Now, Im thinking that encorporating any sort of wild wood is a poor choice. Am I correct?

Based on the import rules am I to assume that all wood that I buy from the vendors is safe?

I had some grapewood that was outside for a spell. It was then washed, and baked...but then sat with my other wood. 

Is that wood all ruined now?

Thanks


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Anyone?
Bump


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## clownfrog (Jan 15, 2012)

Great post.

Would sealing wood/leaves etc in a CO2 gas for a few days kill and streilize?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> So...recently while walking the shores of some local lakes...I encountered some driftwood.
> 
> I picked it up, and its drying in front of my garage.
> 
> ...


Okay, I'm a little lost here... what portion of your questions weren't addressed in the above thread? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

clownfrog said:


> Great post.
> 
> Would sealing wood/leaves etc in a CO2 gas for a few days kill and streilize?


In short, no... Many terrestrial invertebrates (including estivating terrestrial snails and other invertebrates are very resistent to CO2 poisoning due to low metabolic needs of oxygen)... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

In my case it is my husband...the first time I baked oak leaves he was ready to call the fire department...


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## jausi (May 14, 2008)

Thanks ED for sharing all your knowlege, I was planing to bake or some pieces of cork I had from a tank that I taking apart and I didn't want to waste those nice pieces and use them in a Amazon tree boa setup, I was planing to build and after reading this I'll be buying new pieces of cork and hoping to find nice looking brnaches or vines in a local pet store.

Ps: does any one know where can I get them on line?, and where can I find a thread to make clay backgrounds?


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