# vitamin A how often ?



## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

So I'm going to start a new dusting schedule. Repashy Ca + and super pig rotation. How offten do you dust vitamin A? In conjunction with the other two. Thanks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If your frogs are showing symptoms of vitamin A deficiency, like Short Tongue Syndrome, or repeated egg failure, then you can use it once per week until you see improvement. After that, or if your are not showing signs of vitamin A deficiency, then it should not be used more than once per month. This is also stated on the bag of Repashy Vitamin A Plus, and also on their website.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Vit A + should definitely not be used more than once per week. Here are the directions on the bag: 

DIRECTIONS: This product contains high levels of preformed Vitamin A (Retinol). As a regular supplement, it should not be used more than once per week by “dusting” insects, or sprinkling on vegetables at a level of one teaspoon per pound. It can be used therapeutically in higher or more frequent doses to reverse Vitamin A deficiency (Hypovitamintosis A) under Veterinary prescription. Retinol and other fat soluble vitamins such as Vitamin E and Vitamin D3 can build up in the body. Prolonged over supplementation can lead to toxicity (Hypervitamintosis A) and overdose or kill your specimens.

Cal+ has superpig included in it, so unless you have some frogs hat have bright reds that you want to preserve, dusting with superpig is redundant and unnecessary.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> dusting with superpig is redundant and unnecessary.


I feel like I have read that Superpig has more benefits that just color enhancements, but I can't seem to find the post. 

Does anyone have this information handy?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm sure superpig has SOME other benefits, but it's main design was to help enhance the red/orange pigments in animals.

Cal+ on the other hand, was designed specifically to be balanced in it's mineral and vitamin content so that minerals and vitamins don't compete with each other for absorption. From the label:

INFORMATION: Calcium Plus was developed to increase the nutritional value of insects as they are fed to all insectivores, transforming insects into a food item that has an optimal calcium/phosphorus ratio, as well as balanced levels of vitamins, minerals, and trace elements.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Also to chime in, Vitamin A isn't just for breeding frogs. It should also be administered per Doug's directions to froglets too, as it aids in growth & development.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> I'm sure superpig has SOME other benefits, but it's main design was to help enhance the red/orange pigments in animals.
> 
> Cal+ on the other hand, was designed specifically to be balanced in it's mineral and vitamin content so that minerals and vitamins don't compete with each other for absorption. From the label:
> 
> INFORMATION: Calcium Plus was developed to increase the nutritional value of insects as they are fed to all insectivores, transforming insects into a food item that has an optimal calcium/phosphorus ratio, as well as balanced levels of vitamins, minerals, and trace elements.




Reading labels....may be fine for this product but you can't believe every label you read. I swear I read superpig did more than you are indicating it does. Just can't find it......ed?

Maybe I'm thinking something else I don't know.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

taking a bit of a topic diversion here... but I did some digging about the Superpig questions. Found a couple good tidbits...



Ed said:


> I have to keep saying this more frequently.. The carotenoids* are not* "color enhancers" since that would mean that we are increasing the coloration abnormally (typically beyond how the animal appears in the wild) and it also totally ignores all of the other metabolic requirements for those carotenoids...
> 
> The only colors that are modified through diet are some reds, some oranges, some yellows.. Blues and (to at least a major extent) greens do not respond to dietary sources of pigments. This is because the blue component of those colors are due to reflected light from the iridopores. Some of the colors that may not be modified in some amphibians are due to pigments that are manufactured by the animal and stored in the appropriate chromatophore (and may be stored with the appropriate carotenoid). These are the pterins...
> 
> ...


From this thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/80019-repashy-calcium-plus-general-questions.html


and this is also a decent thread (though somewhat redundant from the previously quoted thread)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/89172-repashy-2.html


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

mydumname said:


> Reading labels....may be fine for this product but you can't believe every label you read. I swear I read superpig did more than you are indicating it does. Just can't find it......ed?
> 
> Maybe I'm thinking something else I don't know.


Ed is constantly reiterating the importance of carotenoids for vital functions aside from just color enhancers. 

"There is abundent indication that astaxanthin (and potentially canthaxanthin) are important for anurans as they are able to absorb it and in tadpoles convert it to vitamin A. There are a number of analysis of the important carotenoids for frogs and the six most common carotenoids are astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, beta-carotene, beta-cryptoxanthin, lycopene, zeaxanthin, and lutein... with smaller amounts of some other carotenoids.
"

"if we keep in mind that tadpoles and potentially adult frogs can convert astaxanthin to an active form of vitamin A, then the lack of pigment improvement could have been because the frogs were diverting the carotenoids from pigmentation to other metabolic needs (for example it is also a potent antioxident). "

There are many more examples but you get the idea.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Yes, I knew I wasn't crazy:

"I can't help the advertising but I've had conversations with people off of the forum, who were saying that it shouldn't be used with the frogs since all it does was increase color past that of the wild frogs or that it was like feeding the frogs steroids... These opinions are reinforced when people call it enhancement since it ignores the fact that these carotenoids are very important for other facets of the metabolism of the frogs including but not limited to proper provisioning of the eggs, immune system function, vision, and development. Sequestering for pigmentation, is secondary to those other needs which is why some people report loss of color intensity over time (as carotenoids can be lost from the chromatophores to those other metabolic needs and recovery of pigmentation can be slow..). 
The constant referral by people to it as a color enhancer implies that these carotenoids do not provide any benefit to the frogs beyond pigmentation which is extremely far from the truth. As for how you refer it, instead of calling it "color enhancers" (which is technically incorrect and definitely insufficient), I'm not sure given the multiple systems for which they are important for optimal function but listing it by one of the least important to the health of the frogs is certainly not optimal"


That one there also touches on advertisement...labels...which is why I was not satisfied with that kind of response. The above two are perfect....thanks for posting the links.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

definitely reinforces the use of cyclop-eeze as part of a tadpole diet.

Now I'm gonna have to get some superpig to rotate in every once in a while for my frogs. I've mostly just done the regular Cal+ with Vit-A every 4 weeks.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> taking a bit of a topic diversion here...


Well, he did mention superpig in his supplementation and then was told it was "redundant and unnecessary" which as your links help explain, that was a bit of misinformation given to the original post.

And it looks like Doug answered the specific question on vitamin A.

And I have a brand new bag of superpig here, you can take some.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

mydumname said:


> Well, he did mention superpig in his supplementation and then was told it was "redundant and unnecessary" which as your links help explain, that was a bit of misinformation given to the original post.
> 
> And it looks like Doug answered the specific question on vitamin A.
> 
> And I have a brand new bag of superpig here, you can take some.


haha notice I used the word "bit", but yea it all is good part of the conversation about vitamin rotation, just didnt wanna go down a whole route of superpig stuff and forget about the OP 

and thanks, call it a delivery fee for the universal rock? haha


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I stand by my statement that unless your goal is to enhance the reds/oranges in your frogs, adding superpig to the vitamin rotation is unecessary as Calcium plus already contains the ingredients in superpig.

Superpig Ingredients:
Calendula Flower “Pot Marigold”, Capsicum Annuum Extract “Paprika” (Saponified), Tagetes Erecta Extract “Marigold” (Saponified), Pfaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Spirulina Platensis Algae, Rosa Canina Powder “RoseHips”, Curcuma Longa “Turmeric”, Canthaxanthin.

Calcium + Ingredents:
Calcium Carbonate, Dried Kelp, Cellulose (as carrier), Brewer’s Yeast, *RoseHips*, Calendula Flower, *Marigold Flower Extract*, *Phaffia Rhodozyma Yeast*, *Paprika Extract*, *Spirulina Algae*, *Turmeric*, Salt, Potassium Citrate, Magnesium Gluconate, *Canthaxanthin*, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as mold inhibitors), Natural Flavoring, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).

Every. Single. Ingredient. They're all in Cal +. Ergo, redundant and unnecessary (unless your goal is to enhance the reds/oranges in your frogs)


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I get what your saying... but is that statement based off of anything quantifiable?

How do we know that the quantities present in the Calcium+ are enough and don't warrant additional supplementation?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Based off that assumption, then we shouldn't need to supplement Vitamin A either.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Right, the label as you typed out also says Vitamin A, yet you didn't argue that the use of that is redundant and unnecessary. 

"but is that statement based off of anything quantifiable?"

Nothing quantifiable has been noted except that the ingredients are in both, but this response is inconsistent in regards to Vitamin A.

What do you know that we do not that you are not sharing? So far all you have indicated as your reasoning is a comparison of ingredients.....do you know the quantity of each that is beneficial in order to make this statement?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

carola1155 said:


> I get what your saying... but is that statement based off of anything quantifiable?
> 
> How do we know that the quantities present in the Calcium+ are enough and don't warrant additional supplementation?


Well, I'm not the one ho made the product, I'm just saying that it should be noticed that superpig is basically an ingredient in Cal +. In Allen Repashy's own words:



Allen Repashy said:


> Calcium plus does contain about 6% superpig, which should be enough to be noticed for sure.
> 
> Cheers, Allen


I'm guessing that means that we should be able to observe an improvement in the reds/oranges of frogs with cal + alone. 



Gamble said:


> Based off that assumption, then we shouldn't need to supplement Vitamin A either.


My understanding is that Cal + should have enough vit A for frogs under normal conditions, and that Allen Repashy designed the product as a stand alone supplement for dart frogs.



Pumilo said:


> I spoke to Allan Repashy (owner) and he assured me that Repashy Calcium Plus ICB is a stand alone suppliment developed especially for dart frogs. It is the only suppliment we need to be using. Many people are rotating it with SuperMin or SuperVit but he says that this is unnecessary.


I believe I've read that many frogs in the hobby aren't kept under "normal" conditions, and are often over-bred, which depletes vit A in our frogs, which is why its necessary to supplement specifically for vit A in some cases. Although I am not as certain about this specific subject.

Edit:
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I'm just reiterating what I've read on the boards before, and stating my general opinion (which is that superpig is generally unnecessary as an additional supplement for frogs, if you are supplementing cal+, which contains superpig anyway).


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