# Nutrition for non-eggfeeder Tads left in Viv



## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok so this was raised in another thread I have going.

I've been looking into Pumilios as one of my goals is to allow eggs, tads, and non-mature froglets stay with the parents in the vivarium.

However, someone raised that you could keep for instance Surinami Cobalts and still do the above "with a properly setup viv" so here is the question:

What would be the components of a properly setup vivarium for this purpose (other than broms that hold a good amount of water and lots of them). Such as the microfauna that you should have outside of wood lice and springtails which I'm already looking into.

What would the tads feed off of? Would Tubiflex worms be a good suppliment for them? Currently I'm looking into 2 sites that have some variety of microfauna links are below since the species lists are long. Could someone with experience pick what would be good for feeder microfauna out of those sites? They are the sites I have found with a good variety.

http://www.livefoodcultures.com/
http://www.berkshirebiological.com/

And by stating that the tadpoles of non-eggfeeders can be raised in the viv does this mean feeding them as you would outside the viv? Or is there specific microfauna to add that would facilitate this? Or do they just catch the fruit flies that may fall into their cup?

I realize people may have better success pulling the eggs and raising the tads themselves but due to some personal views I have on the non-necessary artificial raising of animals in general this is not what I'm looking to do.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, since I am that "someone " I'll take a stab.
The in-viv system works best when you have a large viv with a non-moving water feature. The tincs/phylos/other non-eggfeeders will deposit the tads in the pool, not a brom, and the tads will feed off of algae, FFs, and other non-purposely fed stuff in the water. There is no great additive or other food stuffs needed. Just let them do their thing. As they do in the wild. The common thread that keeps coming up with successfully keeping almost any dart is that you should always go with the biggest viv possible, and always use leaf litter.

Rich


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok I have a 56 gallon column. I'm not looking at more than 3 frogs in it but that will depend on size and temperament. Considering Cobalts size and Tinc temperament from what I have read it would be better to just have 2.

What about tadpole cannibalism? This was one of my largest concerns when I was looking at keeping non-eggfeeder tads in the vivarium. I'm worried that if I give a large enough pool to stay off the cannibalism I won't be giving the parents enough terrestrial room or for that matter the microfauna.

Soo...... to that end?


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

Well, the fittest will survive...

Other than that, you can look for a species that has less opportunistic tads?


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok.... and that was where I went to Pumilio. Now I feel like I'm going in circles.

The canabalism does not bother me as it is possible it happens in the wild though I'm not sure since the parents have a much better choice of deposit sites I'm guessing. However, it will bother me because it will bother my daughter if she sees it. Same as in my other post about not keeping snakes for the same reason of not upsetting her as she can be real sensitive and loves rodents.

So how about some helpful advice?


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

She probably will not see the cannibalism. The tads are rarely in a visible place and unless you go through and count the tads, and there is consistently less, the probably will not know.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

dwdragon said:


> Ok.... and that was where I went to Pumilio. Now I feel like I'm going in circles.
> 
> The canabalism does not bother me as it is possible it happens in the wild though I'm not sure since the parents have a much better choice of deposit sites I'm guessing. However, it will bother me because it will bother my daughter if she sees it. Same as in my other post about not keeping snakes for the same reason of not upsetting her as she can be real sensitive and loves rodents.
> 
> So how about some helpful advice?


Helpful advise? As opposed to _not_ helpful advise you have been getting?
If the tads have plenty of nooks and crannies , leaflitter and algae, submerged logs, moss and the like, they stand a good chance of being just fine. This is my experience, _and_ I also read it here recently.
My yellow terribilis just morphed out three healthy froglets from a single pool in a 60. My reginas recently morphed out two from a single pond in a 20.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I guess the helpful advice would have been what you just gave me which was the information on "pond obstacles" and such.

Back to the nutritional subject do you just use fish flakes? the microfauna in the tank? I think that tubiflex worms can live for quite some time in water. Has anyone tried seeding those?

On a side note what percentage of a tank would you suggest for the "pond"? The tank is 56 column 30x18x24. 24" being the height so 30" x 18" floor space. That is another reason I was considering pumilio or another PDF more likely to use the vertical space.

As noted previously I'm concerned with nutrition and right before I started typing this was looking into how much of a variety of microfauna I could introduce from cultured microfauna other than springtails and woodlice.

I'm not looking to not have to feed my frogs but I want to make sure there is a good amount of microfauna for froglets. However I don't want to cram it all in one corner and make it so dense it might stress them? I've read a few posts where people mention the microfauna being so heavy it stresses the frogs.

I know this may seem like I'm over thinking this but it really is that I like to have as much information as possible even if it is not needed yet because the minute you do need it you'll be thankful you have it.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I'll post this separate so I don't have to edit the post before and possibly obscure anyone who read that one but didn't read it after the edit.

On the subject of "helpful advice" this is where I feel like I'm going in circles. I get told that because I'm a beginner to start with a "beginner frog" because nothing in knowledge is going to help me and the attitude thrown in the air is that I'm definately going to end up with dead frogs if I try one with anything other than a beginner rating. I did not get this from everyone I talked to and in fact got a good informational response when inquiring about pumilio at first.

Recently I have gotten a very negative response as stated above. Which is the whole reason for this post is the feasibility within my limits of keeping and breeding a "starter frog" well and being able to keep my own ideals which I've had for more years than I've been interested in PDF's.

So, The going around in circles and helpful advice. Non-helpful is to tell me to pick a species with less opportunistic tads but not list any that would be good for a beginner. Of course that is what I did on my own and I choose Pumilio Bastimentos but then got ripped for being an idiot to want to try to keep one because I'm a beginner.

Basically difference between helpful and non-helpful advice. Things like tadpole canabalism seem to be on the list of all the beginner frogs I looked at. So I moved to wanting one that was more likely to deposit the tads seperately... Pumilio.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I think the issue may be that you want all the info and expect everyone to give you exactly the same responses when you ask all these questions. And you are asking a lot of questions in a very short amount of time. Not everyone has the exact same experiences and some really don't know a whole lot about darts. One of the downfalls of the internet. Anyone can post anything. I think the way to go about this is to utilize the search function. I know you probably have, but belive me, pretty much all of the questions you bring up are already answered here. I think that if you _and_ other readers are getting frustrated by the questions and "going around in circles" and you are getting "ripped" ,maybe just read about the topics , answered by many as opposed to just a few who have had the time in the last week or so to answer your questions, and then make up your mind that way. If you utilize the threads that have already been written, then you get all of the posts written on the subject in the past. The search function does not alway get us exactly where we want but by using that in combination with simply going down all of the threads and reading through topics that jump out at you , you can learn a lot , quickly.


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## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

Another good point, keep in mind that while a lot of people are successful, they aren't all successful in the same ways. IE: What works for Rich might not work for me. What works for me might not work for him. If you're trying to find concrete 100% info before you get started, you won't ever get started. There is a great deal about this hobby that is trial and error. Take the advice given to you, or gleaned from these threads, use what makes sense to you. If it doesn't work, change it up either off of your own obeservations, or by going back and using more information here. There are a ton of people in the hobby, but there is very little scientific research to set concrete grounds for every question asked. Don't stop reading, and talking to people, you'll learn something new on a daily basis. It would be next to impossible for a lot of us to list everything we've done in every situation at the drop of a hat. Sometimes just dropping a pm to someone to learn more about something they said is the most effective, if you don't want to have people go round and round in a public thread.

Tony


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

Sure I suggested a frog with less opportunistic tads; however, I am only breeding red vents and lamasi, so I can not use my experience to suggest a tad with a more herbivorous diet. I could have gone through the care sheets and looked for one, but you can do that as well. (I am not pissy by the way, just stating my view in this one case)

I would personally suggest you pick a frog and stick with it. I would suggest a common thumbnail like imitator, but that is my preferences talking. If you stick with captive bred animals, and have half a brain, you should be fairly successful. Other than that, keep asking questions if you don't understand...

As for a pond, I would limit it to about a 8x8" area; give or take some room either way; the most important thing is to make it easy to get out of; and probably not too deep. My vents use the front 3x1.5" 'pond' at the front of my tank just fine. I mearly use leaf detritus, naturally growing algae, and HBH frog and tadpole bites for nutrition.

As for microfauna; I have springs in all my tanks as well as the occasional pill bug. If you toss some in initially you should be set, restocking them occasionally also helps. Other than those I believe a lot of people just use fruitflies...


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Thank you for the responses  

Reading all the different threads is actually where my confusion is coming from. Also my previous experience with "difficult animals" whether it be because of the type of animal or because there is something wrong with it.

This post was basically to find out how tads feed in a viv if they are not egg-fed and preferably not on each other.

The feeding question and cannibalism were 2 things that led me to Pumilios as from what I've read they would actually be the better frog for me and the type of care / setup I want to provide. Difficult or not. They may actually be difficult for alot of people due to people's tendency to want to give alot of artificial care instead of looking at the natural way of things.

I am actually the opposite I try to look for all the "natural" solutions as that is what has worked best for me in all situations in the past.

So that is kind of what I was looking for in this thread was a more natural way to raise non egg feeding tads in a viv. I'm not sure if the cannibalism is due to a lack of protein when keeping tads of the larger species all together or if it is simply natural. There are some animals that without cannibalism or death of some of the offspring their young would not survive.

Basically was just trying to get the idea of feeding larger tads in a viv and what different people use to feed them if it were established microfauna that gets into the water, or established organisms in a pool or what not.

Thanks again. I'll keep looking around.


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## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

dwdragon wrote
"The tank is 56 column 30x18x24. 24" being the height so 30" x 18" floor space. That is another reason I was considering pumilio or another PDF more likely to use the vertical space."

With what use to keep our frogs in, I believe all of our frogs will use all of the tank space. The arboreal frogs live 30 feet or so off the ground. I have seen auratus in the wild 1.5 meters off the ground. last week I was at the National Aquarium and saw Atelopus, azureus, auratus, pumilio all around their tanks, which are about 4 feet high. I believe Rich (who has more years experience with darts then I) said in a post about vertical tanks that he wasn't sure if he considered a 6 foot high tank that he had vertical. Basically 24" (minus substrate and drainage layer) isn't tall enough for you to have to get an arboreal frog.

Are pumilio even considered arboreal? From the videos and pics I have seen of them they were always on the ground. 

Dave


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