# pumilio froglet methods



## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

So I would like to hear every pumilio breeders methods of handling the froglets once spotted....Is it written in stone to let froglets stay in viv with parent past 3 months, or do you pull as soon as he developes hunting skills?

As for me....second method is my choice as of late...I have been having greater success transfering froglets into the froglet headquarters once he continually makes his way down to hunt after maybe 2-3 weeks. Reason is - I actually noticed several parent pums pinning down froglets during feeding,although froglets posed no threat towards parents fruitflies,but when all on floor it seemed like parents competed and therefore punished froglets for being near their food and eventually killing them all off....ever since I started switching them over to a 12-12-18 viv rich w microfauna they have all been thriving and looking good so far...

Please feel free to add your two pesos and sharing your own method....


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

great post i was thinking about this just a few days ago when i saw my parent frogs ripping through all the springs i keep adding. I know my froglets are getting some of the springs because they are a little over a month old and are still alive lol. My froglets are bold and all over the tank and i would love to move them but was always told to wait. At this point i have a trio of parents also 3 froglets and at least 3 tads all in one tank. To me it seems crowded........


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

I mean who really knows? Imo, pums in the wild lay eggs,rear them as long as needed( morphing) and hit the road and it is froglet on its own....unless out there they have some sort of momma bear and cub habbits and hang around w offspring until juvie stages......I seriously doubt it... For mom it. Is stick around and become the meal....as for dad, fertilize eggs and off to tge next girl... So why would that be any different in somewhat a controlled aetting where predatirs are removed??? I see it plain and simple, if a froglet can manage to grow out in the wild from day one....it sure as heck can manage in a ice little viv....if Im totally off please do correct me


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the not too distant past, the big issue with pumilio froglets was getting them to live past 6 months of age. A number of people working with them, noticed that there was a greater survivorship of froglets that were left in with the adults versus those that were pulled when they metamorphed. 

Aggression by the adults is sporadically reported and isn't consistently reported by people leaving the froglets in the tanks for a period of time. (As an example, I have a couple of Bastimentos froglets in with the adults that have been in there since August with no aggression by the adults (and I observe them regularly since the tank is a couple of feet from my desk). Others have reported aggression initially but over time, the aggression declines and still others report that aggression contines. 

This may be an artifact of enclosure set up and management as I also know several that have pumilio in very large enclosures (100 gallon volume) and have multiple age classes in the tank without any aggression). 

Along this line, pumilio can also occur at high densities in optimal habitat (see Lotters etal for a reference picture), much higher than is discussed on captive populations. 

Ed


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Dont get me wrong though..I dont just spot a newly morphed froglet and aet him into a froglet tanks that instant. Im talking more like....3-4 weeks. After tgey develop hunting skills or better yet, simply learn how to recognize food and be bold enough to go down to the floor and chase it.... For some reason, all my pums seem to compete w offspring as soon as they make their way down....I even found a fem pum in a center brom cup pinning froglet until he drowned....so far, all my froglets have cleared 4-5 months in froglet tank no problem....but its not the case for everyone....


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

My method has always been to leave them for 3-4 mo, sometimes longer. 

But honestly, I havent experimented with pulling pum froglets at a month....

I have received some 'clearly' 1 mo old pums from hobbyists and most did fine....not all though

S


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

I used to pull mine early but I have had much higher success leaving them in until 3-4 months. In fact, I won't ship pum froglets until 5-6 months minimum b/c I am too nervous, they seem so fragile. 

In regards to reported cases of aggression, could these instances be an example of parents killing weak or unfit offspring? I know this occurs with other animals in the wild quite often.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I havent been breeding pums for too long but Ive been pulling them around 3-4 months as well with 90% of them surviving.

The most difficult thing for me seems to be keeping microfauna populations up in the tanks. I try to seed with springs at the same time as flies but in different locations in the tank. The springs are dumped in the leaf litter where the froglets usually are, and the flies are put near the front where the adults are "trained" the food is. This seems to help but the parents seem to really hinder the population levels.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

I try to do all my seeding at night when the lights are out. It gives the bugs a fighting chance at establishing.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

How about results further down the line? Some good friends of mine report very poor breeding from pums that were pulled early. They report good breeding from frogs that stayed with the parents till at least the 4 month mark.


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## Bonobo (Jun 7, 2009)

At what age do you guys start putting together breeding pairs?


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

I totally get everyones points and respect tgem to the fullest....but how does a wild pum froglet grow up on his own and reprduce? 

If I were to say that I have a good amount of froglets that i pulled at a month and some reached adulthood and some are currently at 6+ months, would that just be luck ?


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

If I may mention...some adult one having bred already....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Not free access (link is valid) JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

(free access) http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~halpern/pdf/Halpern_etal_AmNat2005.pdf


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

cairo11 said:


> I totally get everyones points and respect tgem to the fullest....but how does a wild pum froglet grow up on his own and reprduce?
> 
> If I were to say that I have a good amount of froglets that i pulled at a month and some reached adulthood and some are currently at 6+ months, would that just be luck ?





cairo11 said:


> If I may mention...some adult one having bred already....


You asked for observations and methods and that's what I posted. I did not say that it's not possible for them to breed if pulled early and raised separately. Many people,however, have reported that some captive bred pums do not breed as readily or as prolifically, than their wild caught counterparts. Perhaps my friend's observation can help explain that.
As far as _"how does a wild pum froglet grow up on his own and reprduce?"_ goes, 1) I didn't say it's not possible and 2) in the wild, young pums would observe breeding behaivior their entire lives. It would be everywhere, all around them. In captivity, if pulled early, they would never be exposed to any sort of breeding behavior.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

" totally get everyones points and respect tgem to the fullest....but how does a wild pum froglet grow up on his own and reprduce? 

If I were to say that I have a good amount of froglets that i pulled at a month and some reached adulthood and some are currently at 6+ months, would that just be luck ?" 

I don't know if its luck or not, but the consensus from most of the successful pumilio breeders seems to point to some advantages and hightened success when keeping the froglets with the parents. I don't think anyone is going to tell you to never pull froglets early, its just whatever works for you. 

In a natural setting I would imagine the froglets do stay in the general vicintity of the parents or are in the vicinity of other adults until reaching an age at when they begin to breed. It is difficult to say for sure, but my epxerience certainly seems to indicate that at least some skills are learned from the parents or other adults in the wild.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

And after reading Ed's link, this study also seems to point to the potential of learned skills...

thanks Ed, interesting...


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

I also opt to leave many of the froglets to grow out a good time w parents, but the majority I have pulled early and place in a microfauna rich vive were mainly from very aggressive( feeding) parents who continually displayed aggressive behavior tiwards every froglet and even killing off many.....then again, it is the beauty of this hobby qhen methods and pisibilities are endless and in a way, theres a little room for innovation.....although, there is nothing innovative about my method, it might eventually prove to be something to consider for some froggers who have had similar issues. If you know your froglets dont stand a chance around aggresive parents, then why not create and practice a solution...?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

cbreon said:


> And after reading Ed's link, this study also seems to point to the potential of learned skills...
> 
> thanks Ed, interesting...


That is interesting. 

I was going to talk about how when I had only one froglet in the parents tank, he grew at a fast rate. Now that he has been moved and I have 2 new froglets, and a few about to morph, in the parents tank, they are not growing as fast. They are well fed, so I don't think it's food competition. I was thinking of moving them out to see if it increases their growth rate. Now, I'm not so sure. 

Interesting topic.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Cairo you've had Pumilio parents kill offspring in tanks? I think we all have seen aggression, many times between mated pairs but I have not seen a parent kill a youngster though I have had a few disappear.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Has anyone ever put purchased young pumilios in with a pair of adults of the same morph? 

I have heard from a couple experianced sources that pums seem to do better in small viv set-ups than in plastic grow-out containers, even with leaf litter and springs.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

cairo11 said:


> I also opt to leave many of the froglets to grow out a good time w parents, but the majority I have pulled early and place in a microfauna rich vive were mainly from very aggressive( feeding) parents who continually displayed aggressive behavior tiwards every froglet and even killing off many.....
> 
> To follow Mark's comment, I have not heard or seen this either...
> 
> ...


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

phender said:


> Has anyone ever put purchased young pumilios in with a pair of adults of the same morph?
> 
> I have heard from a couple experianced sources that pums seem to do better in small viv set-ups than in plastic grow-out containers, even with leaf litter and springs.


Phender, there are several risks with doing this. One, either group could be carrying parasites or illnesses that could be passed on to the tank mates causing helath issues or death. Two, it could cause fighting or stress resulting in malnourishment or death. Three, if they are breeding it could interupt the breeding and/or caring for tads. I'm sure there are some other possibilities that I may be leaving out. All that being said, you could mix them and they might be fine, but I would not risk it.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

cbreon said:


> cairo11 said:
> 
> 
> > I also opt to leave many of the froglets to grow out a good time w parents, but the majority I have pulled early and place in a microfauna rich vive were mainly from very aggressive( feeding) parents who continually displayed aggressive behavior tiwards every froglet and even killing off many.....
> ...


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

"keep all my obligates in 18-24s and up. I usually will even yse a combination of hardy and easy rotting leaf litter...of course one for frog security other for springtails to feed on and that I havent had issues with. All my pums are nice and filled up. Caucheros, esperanzas and my almirantes are the ones displaying this agression. I mean, on one instance, the female was aon a brom in the cup literally pinning the froglet under water...as I saw it when she hopped away.....then she drowned a second one in the higher brom.....They seem to display very alpha likebehavior and its move out of the way during feeding or you get runed over.
Ill snap a few pics of vivs..."

I have worked with Almirante and Cauchero and haven't seen anything like this. Perhaps you have some really dominant frogs. BTW, I'll take some Esperanzas...


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Haha. Soon


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

cbreon said:


> Phender, there are several risks with doing this. One, either group could be carrying parasites or illnesses that could be passed on to the tank mates causing helath issues or death. Two, it could cause fighting or stress resulting in malnourishment or death. Three, if they are breeding it could interupt the breeding and/or caring for tads. I'm sure there are some other possibilities that I may be leaving out. All that being said, you could mix them and they might be fine, but I would not risk it.


I can think of lots of "coulds" both for and against. I thought that since it is established that the babies have a better chance if left in with their parents, someone might have tried to establish a surrogate parent situation. I was wondering if any one has done it and what their experiences were. Can pum parents recognize their own offspring or would they generally leave all other immature pums of their morph, or maybe any morph alone?


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm not entirely sure what benefit the parents provide the young that makes it beneficial to leave young in the vivarium with them. We're talking about a pretty basic life form here. There's no mother's milk or home schooling. It seems logical that a parent would see a developing juvenile as a competitor for food and future mates.

However, I've only seen aggression towards a juvenile from my male Man Creek, which as it turns out, was spawning with the female at the time. 

I personally leave my juvies in with the parents for as long as I possibly can, but for the most part I think this is one of those topics that is largely clouded in myth.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

MrFusion said:


> I'm not entirely sure what benefit the parents provide the young that makes it beneficial to leave young in the vivarium with them. We're talking about a pretty basic life form here. There's no mother's milk or home schooling. It seems logical that a parent would see a developing juvenile as a competitor for food and future mates.
> 
> However, I've only seen aggression towards a juvenile from my male Man Creek, which as it turns out, was spawning with the female at the time.
> 
> I personally leave my juvies in with the parents for as long as I possibly can, but for the most part I think this is one of those topics that is largely clouded in myth.


Honestly, like I just told somebody else...nowhere in the viv or in panama have I seen momma pum walking around the forest with a group of baby pums trailing her as ducklings....its more like done my part off you go! These frogs are wired to breed when reaching the correct age and to feed as soon as they see prey....I agree. That the parents really serve no benefit..... I have noticed more consistent breeding when parents are in a frogletless viv as well as they will make good use of axels and cups where froglets before came out from.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

cairo11 said:


> Honestly, like I just told somebody else...nowhere in the viv or in panama have I seen momma pum walking around the forest with a group of baby pums trailing her as ducklings....


Oh but that would be soooo cool!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cairo11 said:


> Honestly, like I just told somebody else...nowhere in the viv or in panama have I seen momma pum walking around the forest with a group of baby pums trailing her as ducklings....its more like done my part off you go! These frogs are wired to breed when reaching the correct age and to feed as soon as they see prey....I agree. That the parents really serve no benefit..... I have noticed more consistent breeding when parents are in a frogletless viv as well as they will make good use of axels and cups where froglets before came out from.


As a hypothetical position (I'm not saying I'm buying the learned behavior thing) why would following a female be a requirement for learned behaviors?


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Well I was being sarcastic about the duckling ways.....but my believe is that when it is time for the frog to call, he will call, and when the female hits a stage when to ovulate then she will as I just cannot see them watching and learning from adults in viv.....I dont think a friend and felliw well known and established obligate breeder wants me to say his name, but he brought it to my attention that it is also the method he handles froglets by and it is all he has to say because I know for a fact alot of us have and some only purchase frogs from him, and I dont think Ive ever purchased a healthier frog from anyone else in all seriousness....he agreed that froglets arent being breastfed, or all maternity traits.......and it is simply wiring of these animals that get them through every stage and help them thrive....all that is available from parents to froglets is potential aggression...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cairo11 said:


> Well I was being sarcastic about the duckling ways.....but my believe is that when it is time for the frog to call, he will call, and when the female hits a stage when to ovulate then she will as I just cannot see them watching and learning from adults in viv.....I dont think a friend and felliw well known and established obligate breeder wants me to say his name, but he brought it to my attention that it is also the method he handles froglets by and it is all he has to say because I know for a fact alot of us have and some only purchase frogs from him, and I dont think Ive ever purchased a healthier frog from anyone else in all seriousness....he agreed that froglets arent being breastfed, or all maternity traits.......and it is simply wiring of these animals that get them through every stage and help them thrive....all that is available from parents to froglets is potential aggression...


Again as a total hypothetical position, nothing in the above argument makes the case that behaviors cannot be learned. As an example, it is widely documented in birds, that while males are programmed to begin to sing, many of them learn to sing the correct dialect through hearing other males sing and if deprived of the exposure during a critical learning period, the correct song behaviors may not be learned... 

Ed


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

I used to always pull my froglets but I found that I have higher success rate when leaving them in for 2-4 months. If I noticed a lot started dying off, I would pull them as you have. Many of the approaches in the hobby are based on experience and not a manual or rules...if you found more success with pulling them, I won't tell you not to. Plus, I wouldn't want to stand around wondering while my esperanza froglets got killed either...

One of the first pieces of advice I got from an older frogger 9 or 10 years ago were the phrases...what works for me or what I've found...much better than claiming to know the one and only way...it seems to apply in this siutation, what works for one might not work for another


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

My chocolate lab barks like a turkey(seriously-I think hes half chimp) and not like his dad and he is the biggest stud ever and has produced the biggest pups! Now my parrot did learn how to vocalize and some chords....quite frankly, The wrong chords, bc according to him I am a *** and looser as it is what he yells out everytime I walk by his cage! But funny thing is that, he has yet to deliver one little bird after 20 fem combos...whos the *** now??? Haha...cant make a legit arguement with ya as you are talking birds and not frogs....now if I read a confirmed scientific analyzis stating the same for amphians as to that of birds ,cats,dogs and butterflies.....then itd be smarter for me to shut my trap!!! Haha


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cairo11 said:


> My chocolate lab barks like a turkey(seriously-I think hes half chimp) and not like his dad and he is the biggest stud ever and has produced the biggest pups! Now my parrot did learn how to vocalize and some chords....quite frankly, The wrong chords, bc according to him I am a *** and looser as it is what he yells out everytime I walk by his cage! But funny thing is that, he has yet to deliver one little bird after 20 fem combos...whos the *** now??? Haha...cant make a legit arguement with ya as you are talking birds and not frogs....now if I read a confirmed scientific analyzis stating the same for amphians as to that of birds ,cats,dogs and butterflies.....then itd be smarter for me to shut my trap!!! Haha


Nothing in the above post supports your position.. With respect to claiming you require proof of it in frogs and birds can't be used as an example (even though I was simply demonstrating that the phenomena is well known to occur in multiple taxa), do you have proof that it doesn't occur in frogs? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> One of the first pieces of advice I got from an older frogger 9 or 10 years ago were the phrases...what works for me or what I've found...much better than claiming to know the one and only way...it seems to apply in this siutation, what works for one might not work for another


And this is an important distinction. As I noted early on in this this thread, it is totally possible that aggression to the froglets by some frogs may be a result of the husbandry of those frogs. It is clear on multiple levels that we cannot mimic thier habitats sufficiently to be able to mimic optimal conditions when they can be found in high density (see for example, Lotters et al). What works for one person may not work for another person. 

Ed


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

One of the pairs who motivated me to start this thread is currently in a 150+ heavy heavy planted viv....and this morning, i fed them, three froglets were opposite side of established feeding spot....mom comes out from the highest brom and jumps down to the floor...gyess where she landed???


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Ed, Lack of proof isn't exactly proof in itself. For the sake of argument, can you definitively prove that Pumilio juveniles DO learn from their parents? Of course you can't. It's a two way street, man.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Exactly....is there even a way to confirm something like this? Ed....sometimes I do believe they can learn as I am left wondering everytime after feeding many of my frogs...how is it that everytime I walk by my tanks emptyhanded just observing,they are nowhere to be seen; .........yet, when I walk by with a dusting ff cup, they are all standing in the exact same spot I usually drop ffs on???? Just like a smart dog....are they conditioned to do this everytine or simply have naturaly learned this habbit??? My dilema is that I just dont kniw....and how can I conclude such thing?


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

I think it would be almost impossible to get a definitive answer without spending a lot of time in the field studying the interactions, which I think would be very difficult. Even if that study was done, would it be conclusive, and would it translate into frogs in captive situations? Probably not...so I think that your approach will depend on several factors; the behavior of your frogs, environment, diet, population density, and observations (to name a few). 

Cairo, like I said, its what works for you. If you are successfully breeding obligates and are having success with pulling froglets early then others will try it too. But if what they are doing is already working they will be less inclined to take the risk. Obviously there are other motivations to pull froglets early, aside from the safety of the frogs, namely quicker sales for breeders. To some people this won't matter, but to some who do this as a source of income this quite possibly may motivate them to try. 

If you want to try to get a better picture, start a poll and ask people when they pull froglets and what their success rate is. Obvioulsy, the results will be variable (I suspect highly variable), difficult to verify, and subject to observation. In other words, the only way someone knows there is a froglet in the tank is that they see it, so at that point they guess age. Also if a froglet morphs out and dies before the owner can see it that froglet wouldn't get included into their success rate...just some thoughts, but it seems it will be difficult to get a definitive answer but I would be interested to see the results...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MrFusion said:


> Ed, Lack of proof isn't exactly proof in itself. For the sake of argument, can you definitively prove that Pumilio juveniles DO learn from their parents? Of course you can't. It's a two way street, man.


Actually this is the point I was making. There was an attempt to dismiss the possibility based on the fact that it simply hasn't been documented in anurans as of yet even though it is known to occur in other taxa.... I took the hypothetical position that it may occur based on the citations I posted earlier.... 

As an example of weirdness that occurs in anurans, anurans were for a long time believed to be obligate carnivores as adults, and then they discovered that Xenohyla truncata feeds on fruit as an important part of it's diet (see How much fruit do fruit-eating frogs eat? An investigation on the diet of Xenohyla truncata (Lissamphibia: Anura: Hylidae) - Da Silva - 2006 - Journal of Zoology - Wiley Online Library) or the switch to folivory by adult Rana hexidactyla (see Folivory and seasonal changes in diet in _Rana hexadactyla_ (Anura: Ranidae). Overall in anurans, there is a huge amount of weirdness.. 


I'm extremely doubtful that it does occur in anurans but I'm open to the possibility that someday it may be documented.. there is just too much weirdness. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cairo11 said:


> One of the pairs who motivated me to start this thread is currently in a 150+ heavy heavy planted viv....and this morning, i fed them, three froglets were opposite side of established feeding spot....mom comes out from the highest brom and jumps down to the floor...gyess where she landed???


 Behavioral observations have to be carefully interpreted. As a counter example, I have a group of bastimentos that I am using for some diet trials and I have seen the female jump down between the froglets/on the froglets and the froglets move slightly but don't change thier behavior. 
This could be interpreted as the female targeting the froglets, or it can be interpreted that she has seen the typical feeding behavior and is taking advantage of the food source. It could be one or the other, both or neither. I'm not placing a judgement on it as I don't think I have enough data to interpret it with any level of certainity. 

As for the large heavily planted tank argument used in the example, this doesn't mean that it can't be part of the problem. Pumilo in the wild defend access to reproductive resources, males defend calling sites and females defend tadpole deposition sites (when they have tadpoles) and density of the frogs increases with increased access to appropriate deposition sites. Neither sex defends access to food. It has been documented a number of times in different pieces of literature that when conditions are optimal the frogs can be found in extremely high density (there is a great picture of this in Poison Frogs (Lotters et al) and as far as I can determine we have not been able to duplicate those conditions... In captivity as opposed to the wild populations, we have multiple reports of fertile egg clutches being deposited by females while wild populations do not engage in breeding and fertile egg deposition while they are feeding tadpoles. This is a strong indication that through husbandry methods we are providing conditions that force abnormal behaviors on the frogs which could translate into other abnormalities in the frogs.

These sorts of issues are one of the reasons why we see such a wide disparity in what works for one person may not work for the next person. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cairo11 said:


> Exactly....is there even a way to confirm something like this? Ed....sometimes I do believe they can learn as I am left wondering everytime after feeding many of my frogs...how is it that everytime I walk by my tanks emptyhanded just observing,they are nowhere to be seen; .........yet, when I walk by with a dusting ff cup, they are all standing in the exact same spot I usually drop ffs on???? Just like a smart dog....are they conditioned to do this everytine or simply have naturaly learned this habbit??? My dilema is that I just dont kniw....and how can I conclude such thing?


I am a strong believer in the fact that they are easily conditioned or habituated to certain people .... I'm not convinced that they are learning behaviors from one another (see my comments on frog weirdness). Conditioning/habituation has nothing to do with intelligence as you can conditions specific behaviors in planaria, mealworms, hermit crabs (to name a few examples). 

Something else that is cross multiple taxa is that juvenile success at performing an action can often be correlated with experience (practice makes perfect) often breeding enclosures have been set up much longer than froglet rearing containers and have better established (for lack of a better word) ecosystems and biota.

As part of the hypothetical discussion if we also look to the fact that pumilio have an excellent sense of smell and can use it to return to thier territory (or locate a specific bromeliad), and you pull a froglet to place in a rearing container, you are subjecting it to a lot of stress as thier is a drive to return to familar surroundings, removal of habitat cues, and so forth. If we toss into the mix, that many of the froglets were probably deficient in vitamins (due to other clutch depositions, lack of appropriate carotenoids), you could get a perfect storm of conditions that decrease survivial opportunities. 

Ed


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