# Broken Legs or What?



## jbherpin

I received a frog in the mail. It is holding it's back legs very strange behind him. They almost appear useless, but he moves them into wierd, awkward positions. Could it be he is trying to finish shedding his skin, or what? I have never seen my tincs behave this way, but maybe the stress of shipping messed him up somehow??? Any advice would be great. I am going to take some pictures after this post... Thanks!

JBear


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## frogface

We need the pics! I hope he's ok


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## jbherpin

Pics on the way... Maybe 5-10 mins...

JBear


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## jbherpin

While you all are waiting, here is a pic from when he first arrived.

JBear


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## frogface

Hmm, he *looks* ok to me. Hard to tell though. Maybe let him rest a bit from his trip and see how he's doing later. Vitattus are so beautiful.


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## jbherpin

He has been in the same relative spot for 10 hrs now. He doesn't move when I put my hand near him... Just strange.. Working on those follow up pics...

JBear


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## Azurel

The right leg looks swollen to me....If you look at the thigh of the right leg and compare it to the left it is 2x the size in the pic......But it could be the angle as well....


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## jbherpin

Azurel said:


> The right leg looks swollen to me....If you look at the thigh of the right leg and compare it to the left it is 2x the size in the pic......But it could be the angle as well....


No, you are right, it is definately swollen. What does that mean? What can I do?

JBear


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## Azurel

I have no idea bro.....I would think that is a sign of internal infection, wound.....My varadero had a root constrict it's right leg and looked just like that....Once I removed the root it has gotten better but will not be the same. I honestly think it could be a broken bone....Might want to try and PM Ed or Dr. Frye and see what they think... Hate to see him hurt up like that. I would also get in touch with the person you bought them from.


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## jbherpin

Updated pics:

JBear


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## JaysPDF

No a whole lot you can do. Just monitor it and see if it turns out fine. looks a bit swollen to me but I have seen worse recover just fine...


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## jbherpin

I think this is a stress related shed fail, in combination with high stress cold shipping. I was told frogs can have muscle seizures under high stress. Causing failure for a bit, but will show recovery within approx. 24 hrs. Any experiences are not only welcomed, but anticipated with great concern...

(The seller has agreed to work with me pending... I have nothing but GREAT feedback as far as that goes...)

Thanks!

JBear


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## Ed

I am curious.. where did the idea of a failed shed causing this sort of symptom come from? Is there any supporting evidence to this thought? 

I am not disputing that there is a problem with the frog but the angles of all of the pictures are not helpful in comparing any issues with the legs. Pictures that equally show both of the legs from behind and above the frog would be most helpful if someone was trying to determine if one leg was more swollen than the others. 

Normally stress related calcium insufficiency presents with seizures with extended legs when stressed. If you think that this is a possible cause the more you mess with the frog the worse it will get..


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## Azurel

Yea in the new set of pics the right leg don't look as swollen like it did in the first pic.....I think Ed's suggestion of top view pics of the legs would be better to tell....Or having the frog on it's back would probably help get a good look at the legs too...


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## jbherpin

Azurel said:


> Yea in the new set of pics the right leg don't look as swollen like it did in the first pic.....I think Ed's suggestion of top view pics of the legs would be better to tell....Or having the frog on it's back would probably help get a good look at the legs too...


Here's the deal... I have been told to not stress him out any more than needed. I think manually flipping him over would just not help his stress levels. Also, he is in a tank that is on a shelf, under a shelf. I cannot get the angle you are requesting for the pics without physically moving the frog, or something. 

Just let it be said that his legs hang out at the back, are useless and he doesn't move anywhere. He just sits there with his legs splayed, staring. If anyone has seen a Tinc take a poop, he is in the same position magnified 2x, at least. I have been trying to keep him moist and warm, and not be too invasive. I don't know what else to do. The seller is informed, and we are waiting to determine if the frog will recover before doing anything.

JBear


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## jbherpin

Ed said:


> I am curious.. where did the idea of a failed shed causing this sort of symptom come from? Is there any supporting evidence to this thought?


Ed-

If you look closely at the pics, you can see the skin not shed fully. I figured perhaps it was causing the legs to be constricted, and maybe contributing toward the malady. You have to consider it was shipped with overnight intentions, it spent 2 days in transport, and was simply left on the porch. If the frog was mid-shed, this would certainly cause a problem when stress and cool temps come into play...

JBear


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## frogface

I think I see what you're talking about, JBear. Looks like maybe a tight band of skin around the top of the right leg. Is that what you see in person?


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## jbherpin

frogface said:


> I think I see what you're talking about, JBear. Looks like maybe a tight band of skin around the top of the right leg. Is that what you see in person?


You got it! It is like an obvious band of unshed skin that is stuck mid-cycle at the waist. Like I said, appearing to constrict at the base of the back legs. I am glad you see it too, I don't know what to do other than keep him misted and warm with high humidity... Any suggestions. If it is just skin shed fail, will he presumably recover in time as he is able to shed it fully???

JBear


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## Ed

jbherpin said:


> You got it! It is like an obvious band of unshed skin that is stuck mid-cycle at the waist. Like I said, appearing to constrict at the base of the back legs. I am glad you see it too, I don't know what to do other than keep him misted and warm with high humidity... Any suggestions. If it is just skin shed fail, will he presumably recover in time as he is able to shed it fully???
> 
> JBear


There are a couple of problems with the idea.. I pulled the picture up on a bigger monitor with a higher resolution and 

1) a compression ring would be seen if it was constricting the tissues.. there is no compression seen.. for example, tighten a rubber band around a finger tip.. even with the fingernail preventing a full compression ring from forming, you can still see tissue deformation from the compression.. there isn't any sign of that kind of tissue deforming there.. 

2) the ring of skin is not in an area where compression would interfere with the function of the legs.. it would be similar to wrapping a compression bandage around your abdomen.. it can't cause enough compression to interefere with the nerves controlling the legs(as it would have to deform the spine).


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## jbherpin

Ed said:


> There are a couple of problems with the idea.. I pulled the picture up on a bigger monitor with a higher resolution and
> 
> 1) a compression ring would be seen if it was constricting the tissues.. there is no compression seen.. for example, tighten a rubber band around a finger tip.. even with the fingernail preventing a full compression ring from forming, you can still see tissue deformation from the compression.. there isn't any sign of that kind of tissue deforming there..
> 
> 2) the ring of skin is not in an area where compression would interfere with the function of the legs.. it would be similar to wrapping a compression bandage around your abdomen.. it can't cause enough compression to interefere with the nerves controlling the legs(as it would have to deform the spine).


Did you happen to see anything that may be an issue? If the skin is not the problem, why is there a half shed? Is it b/c the legs ARE useless and the frog is unable to use the legs to aid in the removal of the skin? I just want to make him right...

JBear


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## Azurel

jbherpin said:


> Here's the deal... I have been told to not stress him out any more than needed. I think manually flipping him over would just not help his stress levels. Also, he is in a tank that is on a shelf, under a shelf. I cannot get the angle you are requesting for the pics without physically moving the frog, or something.
> 
> Just let it be said that his legs hang out at the back, are useless and he doesn't move anywhere. He just sits there with his legs splayed, staring. If anyone has seen a Tinc take a poop, he is in the same position magnified 2x, at least. I have been trying to keep him moist and warm, and not be too invasive. I don't know what else to do. The seller is informed, and we are waiting to determine if the frog will recover before doing anything.
> 
> JBear


Yea this sucks either way bro.....I wouldn't mess with him any more either, but didn't know how you had the tank if you could get a top down or not....Either way I wouldn't touch him like you said...


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## Ed

Keep in mind how frogs shed.. they usually eat the shed.. if there was something that prevented the frog from eating the shed then it would result in a partial shed..

I'm not a vet so my advice is not medical. I don't see anything overt from your pictures but that doesn't mean there isn't something there as pictures unless taken from the correct angles may not provide information to people like me.. 


Ed


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## jbherpin

This is all I have to work with for you... 

I was told by the seller to avoid all interaction, such as taking pics, hovering around and staring, touching, etc. He has still not moved...

JBear


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## frogface

Poor little guy. 

He was in transit for 2 days and then left on your porch. Cold temps? If so, I wonder if the drop in temps interfered with his shedding.


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## Ed

I don't see any signs of constriction in the areas where there is some shed skin.. and the legs look to be the same as each other in those angles.


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## jbherpin

Ed said:


> I don't see any signs of constriction in the areas where there is some shed skin.. and the legs look to be the same as each other in those angles.


Ed- 

I have asked what could be the cause for his legs not working, and have provided pics that illustrate the frog in as many ways as possible. Forget the shed skin if you like... What is wrong with my frog then? I wish I could provide better pics but I will not stress this obviously stricken frog any more than needed. He just sits in 1 place legs splayed with an obvious half-shed, and is responsive, but does not move, nor retreat in any way *when my hand gets close. 

* What I mean is I have tried to put my hand near him in an effort to see him MOVE AT ALL, and he just sits there and exists. I have not touched him once.

JBear


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## Azurel

I wonder if his pelvic bones could be broken? I mean that is something you wouldn't see directly and would not allow him to use his back legs.....I don't know but thought maybe throw that out there.....It really does look like his back legs are useless.....Sorry to see you have to go through this man, I don't like that helpless feeling I am sure you feel right now.


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## jbherpin

Azurel said:


> I wonder if his pelvic bones could be broken? I mean that is something you wouldn't see directly and would not allow him to use his back legs.....I don't know but thought maybe throw that out there.....It really does look like his back legs are useless.....Sorry to see you have to go through this man, I don't like that helpless feeling I am sure you feel right now.


I appreciate your concern and care.

JBear


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## Ed

jbherpin said:


> Ed-
> 
> I have asked what could be the cause for his legs not working, and have provided pics that illustrate the frog in as many ways as possible. Forget the shed skin if you like... What is wrong with my frog then? I wish I could provide better pics but I will not stress this obviously stricken frog any more than needed. He just sits in 1 place legs splayed with an obvious half-shed, and is responsive, but does not move, nor retreat in any way *when my hand gets close.
> 
> * What I mean is I have tried to put my hand near him in an effort to see him MOVE AT ALL, and he just sits there and exists. I have not touched him once.
> 
> JBear


You have had conjecture (both by yourself and others) on causes that are not supported by the evidence you have presented. It is to those conjectures that I have responded.. 
As I have stated before *I am not a vet* and the information you have provided does not supply enough information for a workup to narrow down the causes.. 

*If I was going to run down a partial list of hypothetical potential causes of the symptoms you are seeing I would start it* with something like the following (and this is not meant to be an inclusive list). 

*1)* *Shock*
*2) Stress*
3) possible trauma (although the pictures do not show any overt trauma) 

My comment about the pictures being unhelpful was not meant to be construed that you should continue to disturb the frog but a comment on how the pictures that were available were not as helpful as you may have wished. 

The frog has been subjected to significant stressors not including the shipping.. pictures were taken, the frog was fed, more pictures were taken, your have by your own admission continued to manipulate the frog (even if you didn't touch the frog it was an attempt to manipulate the frog) and I would be willing to bet are continually checking on it... at the very least by peeking in on it on a regular basis. 

Either contact a vet for a consultation (example Dr. Wright or Dr. Frye) or appointment on Monday or leave the frog alone (if it is in an area of high traffic, cover the glass with something opaque and leave the frog alone) for whatever the breeder recommends. I would personally have left the frog alone for at least 24 hours (and yes that means I would not check on it, I would not put my hand in the tank and I would not attempt to feed it, I would not keep peeking at it, or walking by the tank).. 

If you want a confirmed diagnosis on what is actually wrong with the frog.. you may either need a work up by a vet (possibly including an x-ray to check for broken bones) or a necropsy... 

Ed


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## jbherpin

Ed said:


> You have had conjecture (both by yourself and others) on causes that are not supported by the evidence you have presented. It is to those conjectures that I have responded..
> As I have stated before *I am not a vet* and the information you have provided does not supply enough information for a workup to narrow down the causes..
> 
> *If I was going to run down a partial list of hypothetical potential causes of the symptoms you are seeing I would start it* with something like the following (and this is not meant to be an inclusive list).
> 
> *1)* *Shock*
> *2) Stress*
> 3) possible trauma (although the pictures do not show any overt trauma)
> 
> My comment about the pictures being unhelpful was not meant to be construed that you should continue to disturb the frog but a comment on how the pictures that were available were not as helpful as you may have wished.
> 
> The frog has been subjected to significant stressors not including the shipping.. pictures were taken, the frog was fed, more pictures were taken, your have by your own admission continued to manipulate the frog (even if you didn't touch the frog it was an attempt to manipulate the frog) and I would be willing to bet are continually checking on it... at the very least by peeking in on it on a regular basis.
> 
> Either contact a vet for a consultation (example Dr. Wright or Dr. Frye) or appointment on Monday or leave the frog alone (if it is in an area of high traffic, cover the glass with something opaque and leave the frog alone) for whatever the breeder recommends. I would personally have left the frog alone for at least 24 hours (and yes that means I would not check on it, I would not put my hand in the tank and I would not attempt to feed it, I would not keep peeking at it, or walking by the tank)..
> 
> If you want a confirmed diagnosis on what is actually wrong with the frog.. you may either need a work up by a vet (possibly including an x-ray to check for broken bones) or a necropsy...
> 
> Ed


What info do you need beyond what has been stated? I am more than willing to share any info I have if it is significant in any way. Please ask what is most important to know in determining what is wrong, and I will provide all I can. Ed, thanks for the help!

1. Shipped from out of state under extreme weather.
2. Shipping took 2 days instead of 1.
3. The box was left on the porch instead of a knock(Probably about 30 mins.).
4. I opened the box, varified he was alive visually.
5. I opened the lid of the shipping container and placed it into the Viv so that he may emerge on his own. 
6. After approx. 1 hr, he was still in the shipping container, so I misted him to aid in the removal of stuck moss.
7. About an hr after that he was able to exit the container into his Viv.
8. He sat there for about an hr and then belly crawled to the higher point about 2 inches away. 
9. He has stayed in that spot for more than a day now.
10. His back legs are limp, lifeless, and just unnatural looking.

These are the facts. I am trying to get help, based on the facts...

Thanks to all for the help!

JBear


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## Freeradical53

Ok, is the frog still not moving position? Not using its legs?


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## jbherpin

Freeradical53 said:


> Ok, is the frog still not moving position? Not using its legs?


He is "same as, same was". Other than wait, I don't know what to do.

JBear


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## jbherpin

Yesterday the little guy was in a new spot, and later had hidden somewhere. I am just going to wait until next week and maybe do a mild probing(around the tank, not the frog) to check his health status. Any thoughts?

JBear


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## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> Yesterday the little guy was in a new spot, and later had hidden somewhere. I am just going to wait until next week and maybe do a mild probing(around the tank, not the frog) to check his health status. Any thoughts?
> 
> JBear


His back legs could have been damaged by chytrid infection, getting overly cold and muscle damage, stress or parasites. The only way your frog will get better is by a trip or consult with an exotics vet who can do a real check on his health. Otherwise he will likely die---hiding away is not a good sign. His legs might be dead and necrotic by now. I suggest you do this soon or your frog may die by next week as it seems things are going downhill rapidly. You can do us a favor by taking a trip to the vet and posting the findings here.


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## jbherpin

If worst case scenario happens and he dies, will I have to tear down the viv, or will it be ok? Just curious.

JBear


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## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> If worst case scenario happens and he dies, will I have to tear down the viv, or will it be ok? Just curious.
> 
> JBear


The only way you would know what to do is to verify the cause of illness by a vet. Otherwise you are just left with our guesses and could risk future inhabitants of that tank.


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## jbherpin

earthfrog said:


> The only way you would know what to do is to verify the cause of illness by a vet. Otherwise you are just left with our guesses and could risk future inhabitants of that tank.


I figured, anyone know a good Vet in the Cleveland, OH area that is skilled with exotics, and can do necropsies if needed?

BTW- He is still hiding and hasn't been seen in about a day.

Thanks!

JBear


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## edwing206

A quick google search yielded these results.
Reptile Veterinarians for Ohio

Many vets listed in that link.


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## jbherpin

edwing206 said:


> A quick google search yielded these results.
> Reptile Veterinarians for Ohio
> 
> Many vets listed in that link.


All my thanks... I feel like an... You can guess... for not thinking of that... 



JBear


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## edwing206

No problemo, here to help.


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## yumpster

Not saying this necessarily has anything to do with it, but this is the exact reason I don't have frogs shipped to me under extreme weather conditions. Even for the most experienced hobbyists, it's still added risk to ship frogs in less than ideal weather conditions. It is likely the cause of the shipping delay as well. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

Either way, I hope he snaps out of it on his own!


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## jbherpin

He came out to eat some FFs today. His legs are the same, his color looks better. I don't see the obvious skin shed half down the back anymore. After he ate some, I saw he had taken a poop. I don't know if I should be encouraged or just confused.The back legs still look equally swollen, but far less than before.

JBear


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## edwing206

I'd take that as a good sign. Hang in there.


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## frogface

Sounds like he's improving, JBear.


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## jbherpin

I am torn. It appears as though he is surviving, and perhaps getting a little better, but I fear he is simply suffering and deteriorating slowly. If he was suffering, and there is no chance for a recovery/decent life... I don't know...

How long should I give it? What should I base my criteria on? 

The legs aren't used, yet he is seen climbing on pothos,etc. He is eating when offered(however is restricted to FFs that venture "too close"). He is upright, alert, and the swelling seems to be lessening... 

Thanks for the continued help!

I will try and get a follow-up pic tomorrow.

JBear


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## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> I am torn. It appears as though he is surviving, and perhaps getting a little better, but I fear he is simply suffering and deteriorating slowly. If he was suffering, and there is no chance for a recovery/decent life... I don't know...
> 
> How long should I give it? What should I base my criteria on?
> 
> The legs aren't used, yet he is seen climbing on pothos,etc. He is eating when offered(however is restricted to FFs that venture "too close"). He is upright, alert, and the swelling seems to be lessening...
> 
> Thanks for the continued help!
> 
> I will try and get a follow-up pic tomorrow.
> 
> JBear


If it were me, I would see if the seller can help you out or do some sort of compromise, or go to the vet. I really don't know what else you can do.


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## jbherpin

The seller is informed. If the frog has not improved, the seller has agreed to send a replacement. IF the frog I have now does not recover,but The seller issues another, should I remove the afflicted frog prior to introducing the new? They would obviously be from the same seller and therefore from the same enviro. I wouldn't want to have the "gimpy" frog get out-competed for food. Or have an unknown sickness take ahold on the new frog... Any advice?

Thanks a ton!

JBear


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## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> The seller is informed. If the frog has not improved, the seller has agreed to send a replacement. IF the frog I have now does not recover,but The seller issues another, should I remove the afflicted frog prior to introducing the new? They would obviously be from the same seller and therefore from the same enviro. I wouldn't want to have the "gimpy" frog get out-competed for food. Or have an unknown sickness take ahold on the new frog... Any advice?
> 
> Thanks a ton!
> 
> JBear


Until you confirm or deny the presence of a pathogen (disease-causing organism or influence), it is not safe to put another frog in the same enclosure, regardless of this frog's recovery or lack thereof. 
You have to make this decision based on all info provided so far.


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## jbherpin

Thanks for the excellent advice, Susan! 

I am in the process of deciding. What will the Vet need? A poop sample? The frog itself? Should he test the shipping container? I have never taken what you would consider an "exotic" pet to the vet... If the frog is needed, wouldn't that just potentially push him over the edge with added stress? I like him a lot, he is beautiful, has taken on a much more vibrant color, and I just don't want to lose him... Even if his legs will not work, but they don't rot away with some form of necrotic gastliness, is it immoral to relocate him to a smaller enclosure where he will be alone, but will have easy access to food prey? 

(I would put him into a 5 gal, as he is under an inch, and I know how to space his needs. If he were healthy, I wouldn't do this... My primary focus would be ensuring he easily finds food...) 

JBear


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## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> Thanks for the excellent advice, Susan!
> 
> I am in the process of deciding. What will the Vet need? A poop sample? The frog itself? Should he test the shipping container? I have never taken what you would consider an "exotic" pet to the vet... If the frog is needed, wouldn't that just potentially push him over the edge with added stress? I like him a lot, he is beautiful, has taken on a much more vibrant color, and I just don't want to lose him... Even if his legs will not work, but they don't rot away with some form of necrotic gastliness, is it immoral to relocate him to a smaller enclosure where he will be alone, but will have easy access to food prey?
> 
> (I would put him into a 5 gal, as he is under an inch, and I know how to space his needs. If he were healthy, I wouldn't do this... My primary focus would be ensuring he easily finds food...)
> 
> JBear


Calm down.
Immoral to relocate him? He should have be QT'd in the first place, so I doubt it would be any harm now. If you are going to move him to a smaller tank, give him a day or two to poop. It is good to give him hiding places/leaves, etc. Take the frog and the poop to the vet after he has fed well and pooped well. He will need to do a fecal count test and possibly a skin swab for bacteria. Vets don't test for chytrid, you will need to send off to Pisces for that. 

Calling a local exotics pet store and asking for the exotic vets in the area is a good start. If they're not experienced with doing frog fecals they will likely not know what to look for, from what I read. 
Otherwise, you can email Dr. Frye if you have no other local options.


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## jbherpin

I have a listing provided for me(Thanks...) of local vets, I need to call them and decide if they are qualified. I'll have to see, and go from there.

JBear


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## jbherpin

He hunts and eats with a ton of vigor! He often misses FF's when they are off of the ground though(Like on pothos or an Oak Leaf)??? When the FFs are passing by his front feet or face, he is on target. He actively stalks FFs, and just has a no quit attitude. But, as we know, nature tends to put on a show of health until the end. 

Maybe this is significant,maybe not... He has never(to my knowledge) been to the right side of the Viv. Like he is simply staying in a few spots here and there, but never traveling far beyond...

JBear


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## SutorS

Not to be dismal, but I have just read the whole thread and this sounds very similar to what I was observing in my auratus that had just passed. I had noticed signs of shedding, then what seemed to be stress-related signs, confusion and lack of alertness, debilitation of the back legs, and eventually death. This occurred within a week of receiving the frogs. The other frog seems very healthy, but has since been QT'd. I am guessing stress or chytrid, and seeking a better answer as we speak. By what you've said, your frog seems he's in much better health than mine, who's health deteriorated rapidly, so I hope your frog remains healthy and improves.


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## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> He hunts and eats with a ton of vigor! He often misses FF's when they are off of the ground though(Like on pothos or an Oak Leaf)??? When the FFs are passing by his front feet or face, he is on target. He actively stalks FFs, and just has a no quit attitude. But, as we know, nature tends to put on a show of health until the end.
> 
> Maybe this is significant,maybe not... He has never(to my knowledge) been to the right side of the Viv. Like he is simply staying in a few spots here and there, but never traveling far beyond...
> 
> JBear


OK, but I hope you are taking him to vet or getting a chytrid test run on him despite the updates, since none of us can reassure you enough to save his life in case we are wrong on a more benign cause of illness. Good feelings won't equal recovery, I guess that's a more succinct way to put it. 

If the vet is a no-go or doesn't find anything, here's a link to the Pisces site, and a PCR for chytrid is the test to run. You will need some Everclear alcohol to preserve the chytrid and the right sort of test tube to send it in for shipping. These are just things John has told me--- he can explain it better.
Home Page | Pisces Molecular

I can't tell you how many times I've read threads like this that go on for a week or two without action that ended in the frog's eventual death, where it was never treated or quarantined. Very sad.


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## earthfrog

Also--I was thinking about the skin hanging off his back--it was hard to tell from the pics, but does it look fuzzy or furry or stringy? That could also indicate infection with protozoans, mycoses related to chytrid or merely a reaction to the extreme temps. 

I'm thinking it was cold damage to the frog, best case scenario, but if you don't test you'll never be sure.


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## jbherpin

Update pics. 

EarthFrog, I have not had success finding a vet locally. 

I hate to say it, but I will simply put him into a 5 gal, and try and provide as good a life as possible.

JBear


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## earthfrog

Well, thanks for looking. I don't see outward signs of infection, and partial paralysis like that can be due to temperature-related damage according to the 'big frog book'. Who knows, maybe he'll go on to live a happy frog life. 

You can also email pics to Dr. Frye and see what he thinks.


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## jbherpin

All my thanks to you... His replacement is en route, and should arrive tomorrow before 12pm. I hope for a successful shippment. This is frog #3. The 1st was DOA, this one..., now one last(hopefully) try!

Here is a few pics of the original frog that was DOA.

JBear


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## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> All my thanks to you... His replacement is en route, and should arrive tomorrow before 12pm. I hope for a successful shippment. This is frog #3. The 1st was DOA, this one..., now one last(hopefully) try!
> 
> Here is a few pics of the original frog that was DOA.
> 
> JBear


You're welcome. I guess sometimes best guesses end up being right. Glad you got it straightened out, and sounds like you have a great seller to deal with.


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## JL-Exotics

vittatus are pretty sturdy frogs, especially once they are well started. To lose 1 in shipping is not impossible, but to have issues with 2 of them in a row should send a major red flag that the shipping procedures may be flawed. 

No disrespect to the shipper, I can't imagine anyone purposely shipping frogs that may not arrive safely. But in the interest of helping to improve someones process, how were the frogs packaged?


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## jbherpin

JL-Exotics said:


> vittatus are pretty sturdy frogs, especially once they are well started. To lose 1 in shipping is not impossible, but to have issues with 2 of them in a row should send a major red flag that the shipping procedures may be flawed.
> 
> No disrespect to the shipper, I can't imagine anyone purposely shipping frogs that may not arrive safely. But in the interest of helping to improve someones process, how were the frogs packaged?


This was entirely a UPS fail. The shipper had them packed(both; seperate times) with ample styrofoam insulators, newspaper, keeping the container secure, and a heat pack. Both frogs I have received were scheduled next day by air through UPS, and both times it took UPS 2 days to deliver. 

ALL that I have written here is in no way an attempt to discredit a dealer whom I consider to be both personable, helpful, reachable, and prompt. I can think of no one better to do business with, the problem was in distance, CARRIER, and weather, these factors played a HEAVY negative on the situations. In short, despite the shipping fails, I would still recommend this dealer.

JBear


----------



## earthfrog

FedEx is another option, but may be more expensive.


----------



## JL-Exotics

Again, no disrespect to the shipper.

Just a couple more questions, possibly for the benefit of all of us shippers.

Was it a single cooler or double (cooler inside a cooler)?

Was the heat pack inside the same cooler as the frogs?


----------



## jbherpin

JL-Exotics said:


> Again, no disrespect to the shipper.
> 
> Just a couple more questions, possibly for the benefit of all of us shippers.
> 
> Was it a single cooler or double (cooler inside a cooler)?
> 
> Was the heat pack inside the same cooler as the frogs?


I am not sure what a "cooler" is, but I will describe in as great of detail as I can the shipping system used. The frog itself was in a small deli cup on sphag moss with a generous plant clipping. Outside of that was a bunch of crumpled newspaper packed tightly around the shipping container(the frog), and outward, packed tightly against the styrofoam walls. After the newspaper cushion layer is the heat pack on top, within 2" of the shipping container(the frog). Everything is encased in a double styrofoam layer for insulation, and it is shipped in a standard small box. 

JBear


----------



## JL-Exotics

that might be part of the problem. heat packs kill frogs. Especially if it is a shorter duration (i.e. 20 hour heat pack). They reach a peak temp fairly quickly and can overheat a small insulated box before it even reaches the drop point. They will also consume the oxygen inside the box as well. If temps are cold enough to warrant a head pack we always pack frogs into 1 foam lined shipping box and put that box into a larger foam lined shipping box and the heat packs are placed outside the smaller box. We also never use the shorter duration heat packs (40 hours +) as the longer duration heat packs don't get as hot and allow for an extra days delay in delivery.

We have received many frogs that were subject to cold temps during shipping and in most cases they were able to warm to room temps slowly and made full recoveries within 48 hours. Some were cold enough that they were unable to move.

We have also received frogs that were DOA during cooler weather and in every instance a heat pack was implicated. Cold frogs tend to shrink and dehydrate (in our observation) and cooked frogs tend to bloat, many times with the mouth open and tongue protruding (again, in our observation).

When cold temps are a concern it can help to ship the package as "hold at location" so they don't go out on an extended unheated truck ride for delivery. If that is not realistic, then waiting for better shipping weather would be the next best option.

I'm sure your breeder is experienced and reputable and again I am not trying to find fault with anyone. The fact that they are willing to replace a frog 3 times is pretty commendabe I would say. The breeder may have even shipped many frogs using the exact same methods - perhaps they are using a new package of heat packs that warms more quickly or gets hotter without realizing a difference??

I am not saying the heat pack IS the problem, but I would give it serious consideration as a prime suspect. At the very least worth a discussion with the shipper as a potential problem.

Lets hope the 3rd time is the charm!


----------



## jbherpin

I received my replacement(#3) today. The frog came in great condition. The seller sent me an adult for the cost of a juv. This frog is plump, and simply stunning. What are the nuances to look for in determining sex for vittatus? I suspect it is based on call primarily, if not solely, but I had to ask. Sometimes people who have worked with a species a long time grow to see subtle morphological differences between male and female. Here is the new(healthy) frog.

JBear


----------



## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> I am not sure what a "cooler" is, but I will describe in as great of detail as I can the shipping system used. The frog itself was in a small deli cup on sphag moss with a generous plant clipping. Outside of that was a bunch of crumpled newspaper packed tightly around the shipping container(the frog), and outward, packed tightly against the styrofoam walls. After the newspaper cushion layer is the heat pack on top, within 2" of the shipping container(the frog). Everything is encased in a double styrofoam layer for insulation, and it is shipped in a standard small box.
> 
> JBear


Yes, I was also under the impression that the heat pack should be separated into a separate styrofoam container to prevent overheating. Was the package still warm when you received it?


----------



## jbherpin

The box was approx room temp on the inside. The frog was alert and moving around immediately upon arrival. I was thrilled/relieved!

JBear


----------



## frogface

I only have a few months experience with vitattus, from when I was frog sitting. The females were more pear shaped than the males. That's the only difference I could tell, except for the calling from the males. 

Tossing out a guess that your new beauty is a female. If not, you're going to love his call. It's very nice!


----------



## jbherpin

frogface said:


> I only have a few months experience with vitattus, from when I was frog sitting. The females were more pear shaped than the males. That's the only difference I could tell, except for the calling from the males.
> 
> Tossing out a guess that your new beauty is a female. If not, you're going to love his call. It's very nice!


When will she be mature? I have read between 7-10 months for Vitts. Is this about right?

JBear


----------



## frogface

jbherpin said:


> When will she be mature? I have read between 7-10 months for Vitts. Is this about right?
> 
> JBear


I really don't know, JBear. Only had them for a few months. I'll be getting some of my own, some day. Very nice frogs


----------



## jbherpin

They are beautiful frogs, and as you may know, very fast! I knew they were a quick species, but I was still impressed. Take note... They are FAST!!!

JBear


----------



## jbherpin

Update pics:

JBear


----------



## jbherpin

Only pics #5,8,9,10, and 11 are of the limp legged frog. To me he is looking a bit better... Look at how he supports himself again in pics 10 and 11 particularly.

JBear


----------



## frogface

I'm glad he's hanging in there. Is he moving around now?


----------



## earthfrog

Maybe over time he will regain full use of his limbs if it is only frostbite. The facts point to thermal damage. He looks fine otherwise!


----------



## jbherpin

At this point I am not sure how much he will recover/improve. I have seen him come a long way already, but is still awkward in movement, and does not explore at all. The only thing I know for sure is I am happy I did not end his life, He HAS recovered enough to assuredly survive. 

JBear


----------



## jbherpin

I have named the frog making it that much harder to "do the job"... 

I have his name posted in Thunderdome... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/thunderdome/65266-p-vittatus-name.html#post569606

JBear


----------



## jbherpin

Would a frog in his condition even call if it is male, or would the ailment stop him from calling? I desperately want a pair of these lovely frogs. I think the replaced frog IS female. I am looking for a known male. If anyone has a spare male for trade or sale please let me know!

JBear


----------



## jbherpin

Here is a few pics of the frog I think is female. If anyone can add some insight on ways to accurately sex vitts, it would be very appreciated. I understand with many small species, the call is the indicator of gender, but I am hoping there are SOME morphological ques... Thanks a lot!

I would be very appreciative if someone would be willing to post a known female and a known male pic for me to scrutinize and pour over for diffs? 

Thanks- 

JBear


----------



## jbherpin

Here is a pic taken today(3.13.11) of the crippled frog.

JBear


----------



## jbherpin

jbherpin said:


> Would a frog in his condition even call if it is male, or would the ailment stop him from calling? I desperately want a pair of these lovely frogs. I think the replaced frog IS female. I am looking for a known male. If anyone has a spare male for trade or sale please let me know!
> 
> JBear


To my knowledge this was never answered. The frog is the same as pic'd in my last post. I understand he is not a 'breeder" lol, but still wonder if he would call if he was male, despite his condition. Thanks!

JBear


----------



## JL-Exotics

jbherpin said:


> To my knowledge this was never answered. The frog is the same as pic'd in my last post. I understand he is not a 'breeder" lol, but still wonder if he would call if he was male, despite his condition. Thanks!
> 
> JBear


Anyone that tries to answer this question would only be making a wild guess. You'll just have to wait and see and then let US know if a frog in that condition will call...


----------



## jbherpin

MBD?










JBear


----------



## JL-Exotics

MBD isn't a quick process and wouldn't pop up during overnight shipping. Why would you suspect MBD?


----------



## jbherpin

JL-Exotics said:


> MBD isn't a quick process and wouldn't pop up during overnight shipping. Why would you suspect MBD?


If you look at the rear legs closely you will see that the upper and lower leg(s) are swollen. They have been like this since arrival. If you look at the affects of MBD in the more commonly seen Green Iguana, the swelling goes hand in hand. Also, this frog is a fighter. He hops and appears ok at first glance. He may have very well been shipped without any concern if at a glance he appeared fine.

JBear


----------



## JL-Exotics

Hmmm, it was pretty obvious to you that something wasn't right when it arrived. Based on your initial descriptions, it should have been pretty obvious at the time of packing if the issue was present - but you're right, it is surprisingly easy to miss things when you're focused on catching quick little frogs that are freaking out.

It may just be the angle of the photos or even the swelling, but the femurs look short to me. How do it's femurs compare to the other "normal" vittatus you have?


----------



## jbherpin

JL-Exotics said:


> Hmmm, it was pretty obvious to you that something wasn't right when it arrived. Based on your initial descriptions, it should have been pretty obvious at the time of packing if the issue was present - but you're right, it is surprisingly easy to miss things when you're focused on catching quick little frogs that are freaking out.
> 
> It may just be the angle of the photos or even the swelling, but the femurs look short to me. How do it's femurs compare to the other "normal" vittatus you have?


They are short and swollen in comparison. This guy eats well, but does not explore at all...

JBear


----------



## JL-Exotics

could be a mild case of short femur syndrome, but the cases I have seen, while somewhat awkward in movement, are still able to hop around more or less like normal.

Has the swelling gone down and the mobility improved over time?


----------



## jbherpin

JL-Exotics said:


> could be a mild case of short femur syndrome, but the cases I have seen, while somewhat awkward in movement, are still able to hop around more or less like normal.
> 
> Has the swelling gone down and the mobility improved over time?


The swelling has remained almost the same, the mobility has improved. He sometimes holds himself in a posture that he looks normal at first. I had no idea a short femur syndrome existed, but if you look at this post( http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/571410-post81.html ), I have to agree... Will this stop him from breeding?

JBear


----------



## JL-Exotics

without knowing exactly what all is going on with the frog it's impossible to say how it would affect its ability to breed.


----------



## jbherpin

JL-Exotics said:


> without knowing exactly what all is going on with the frog it's impossible to say how it would affect its ability to breed.


If it were a femur ailment, how dibilitating would it be? Conjecture is welcomed... 

JBear


----------



## JL-Exotics

I haven't been able to find much info on short femur syndrome, other then it appears to be a developmental problem similar to spindly leg syndrome. How it might affect fertility or an animal's ability to breed I don't know. Maybe Ed can dig up some more info on the topic...


----------



## Ed

The original reports of short femur syndrome can be traced back to some of the same reports that referenced what was then known as "match stick legs" (for a full review see Kowalski, Edward; 2007; Spindly leg syndrome: A review; Leaf Litter 1(2) : 28-31. As with SLS, reports of it disappeared when the adults were properly supplemented indicating that it is probably a variation of SLS (and there are reports of deformation of hind limb in SLS cases). 
As the femur is shortened but apparently functional in most reported cases, it does not affect reproduction. It is also possible that this is caused by phenotypic plasticity from how thier enclosures were kept. 

Ed


----------



## jbherpin

Ed said:


> As the femur is shortened but apparently functional in most reported cases, it does not affect reproduction. It is also possible that this is caused by phenotypic plasticity from how thier enclosures were kept.
> 
> Ed


I thank you for taking the time to shed a little light on this issue. I think we are finally solving this mystery malady. 

In reference to phenotypic plasticity, the way I understand it, is that everything from food, substrate, how many frogs are in a tank, temperature, humidity,etc all play a role in phenotypic plasticity? Is this correct? 

Thanks again!

JBear


----------



## Ed

jbherpin said:


> I thank you for taking the time to shed a little light on this issue. I think we are finally solving this mystery malady.
> 
> In reference to phenotypic plasticity, the way I understand it, is that everything from food, substrate, how many frogs are in a tank, temperature, humidity,etc all play a role in phenotypic plasticity? Is this correct?
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> JBear


Nutrition can play a role (as is seen with what happened with the attempt to maintain a captive assurance colony of Devil's Hole Pupfish, see http://people.uncw.edu/lemas/publications/lema and nevitt, 2006.pdf ) but the actual enviroment can also play a factor in selection.. the method in which the physical enviroment is set up in the tank may play a direct role on the development of the frogs.. a classic example can be found in the differences in Anolis sageri (see http://webh01.ua.ac.be/funmorph/raoul/masterproef/Losos2000.pdf ). The amount of manuvering the frog has to do in the enclosure may be affecting phyisical characteristics of the frogs. 

Ed


----------



## jbherpin

Ed said:


> Nutrition can play a role (as is seen with what happened with the attempt to maintain a captive assurance colony of Devil's Hole Pupfish, see http://people.uncw.edu/lemas/publications/lema and nevitt, 2006.pdf ) but the actual enviroment can also play a factor in selection.. the method in which the physical enviroment is set up in the tank may play a direct role on the development of the frogs.. a classic example can be found in the differences in Anolis sageri (see http://webh01.ua.ac.be/funmorph/raoul/masterproef/Losos2000.pdf ). The amount of manuvering the frog has to do in the enclosure may be affecting phyisical characteristics of the frogs.
> 
> Ed


Thank you for providing those studies! I have a much better grip on what phenotypic plasticity is now! I see the relatedness to my vitt problem in both studies. Again, thank you very much!

JBear


----------



## jbherpin

Ed-

Thanks to you, I have been obsessing about phenotypic plasticity! It is really something that is just VERY interesting to me! I really appreciate all the solid feedback as well! 

I will be searching the web for studies of all sorts on this! 

In what ways specifically could phenotypic plasticity cause this in the legs? In your opinion!

Thanks again for educating me...

JBear


----------



## Ed

If you use google scholar and search enviromental plasticity as well as phenotypic plasticity you will find a large body of evidence on it. As with several other things, it is probably best studied in fish as there are a lot of commercially valuable species involved. 

Keep in mind, I keep saying we can't rule phenotypic plasticity out, not that it is definitely the cause of what we are seeing as it could also be due to epigenetics, genetic adaptation to captivity, inbreeding, or even something we haven't thought of yet. 

One of the other places we could be seeing enviromental plasticity in the frogs is with respect to the comments that wild caught frogs often are larger (particularly in the tinctorius group) than captive bred frogs. Many of the frogs we see these sorts of issues reported are the larger primarily leaf litter dwelling species which are then housed in heavily planted enclosures where the frogs have manuver through the dense vegetation. This is going to change how the frogs move which in turn as we have seen in other taxa can change the morphological development of the length of the legs. However we should also consider that the combination of optimized temperature, and humidity, excess food, and dense planting may be driving genetic adaptation and/or phenotypic plasticity of size directly or indirectly (changing age/size of start of reproduction changes adult size). 

Ed


----------



## jbherpin

With him being in my care in this state for so long now without deterioration, does this rule certain things out? If he was not able to feed/etc, I would assume that a frog in his condition would deteriorate quickly.

Great info above Ed, thanks again!

JBear


----------



## Roadrunner

If it was phenotypic or env plasticity, wouldn't you see it in all the offspring?



Ed said:


> If you use google scholar and search enviromental plasticity as well as phenotypic plasticity you will find a large body of evidence on it. As with several other things, it is probably best studied in fish as there are a lot of commercially valuable species involved.
> 
> Keep in mind, I keep saying we can't rule phenotypic plasticity out, not that it is definitely the cause of what we are seeing as it could also be due to epigenetics, genetic adaptation to captivity, inbreeding, or even something we haven't thought of yet.
> 
> One of the other places we could be seeing enviromental plasticity in the frogs is with respect to the comments that wild caught frogs often are larger (particularly in the tinctorius group) than captive bred frogs. Many of the frogs we see these sorts of issues reported are the larger primarily leaf litter dwelling species which are then housed in heavily planted enclosures where the frogs have manuver through the dense vegetation. This is going to change how the frogs move which in turn as we have seen in other taxa can change the morphological development of the length of the legs. However we should also consider that the combination of optimized temperature, and humidity, excess food, and dense planting may be driving genetic adaptation and/or phenotypic plasticity of size directly or indirectly (changing age/size of start of reproduction changes adult size).
> 
> Ed


----------



## jbherpin

frogfarm said:


> If it was phenotypic or env plasticity, wouldn't you see it in all the offspring?


I think the plasticity Ed was talking about is more related to growth patterns of juvenile to adult, not the genetics passed on... I may be wrong, lol!

JBear


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> If it was phenotypic or env plasticity, wouldn't you see it in all the offspring?


Hi Aaron,

To completely answer this would take a lot of typing and we got back a little while ago so I'm going to have to be brief... 

No, as the enviroment isn't (always) equal on each offspring so the amount of the effect can be different for each offspring resulting in a range or spectrum of "expression" (for lack of a better word at the moment). It also doesn't have to be bilaterally even (for example professional tennis players typically have one arm longer than the other..). 

The amount of plasticity shown by each animals is controlled by a complex of multiple genes so this can also affect the amount of plasticity shown by each individial in response to an enviromental stimulus. It can also lead to the fixing of the phenotype if the animals showing a specific change in response to the enviroment are more successful at passing on those genes that enable that plasticity. An example of this is the morphological changes that are being seen in the marine toads at the front of the colonization wave in Australia. Those toads are showing longer leg lengths as this enables them to move faster and farther each night allowing for colonization of new sites while behind the front, the toads that are more stationary do not develop the longer legs... 


Some comments

Ed


----------



## jbherpin

jbherpin said:


> I think the plasticity Ed was talking about is more related to growth patterns of juvenile to adult, not the genetics passed on... I may be wrong, lol!
> 
> JBear





Ed said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> To completely answer this would take a lot of typing and we got back a little while ago so I'm going to have to be brief...
> 
> No, as the enviroment isn't (always) equal on each offspring so the amount of the effect can be different for each offspring resulting in a range or spectrum of "expression" (for lack of a better word at the moment). It also doesn't have to be bilaterally even (for example professional tennis players typically have one arm longer than the other..).
> 
> The amount of plasticity shown by each animals is controlled by a complex of multiple genes so this can also affect the amount of plasticity shown by each individial in response to an enviromental stimulus. It can also lead to the fixing of the phenotype if the animals showing a specific change in response to the enviroment are more successful at passing on those genes that enable that plasticity. An example of this is the morphological changes that are being seen in the marine toads at the front of the colonization wave in Australia. Those toads are showing longer leg lengths as this enables them to move faster and farther each night allowing for colonization of new sites while behind the front, the toads that are more stationary do not develop the longer legs...
> 
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


You are agreeing with me, or am i "off"?

I am not trying at all to be a pain, as I stated I have a new interest in this, and want to be sure I am understanding correctly...

JBear


----------



## Ed

As the level or amount of plasticity is controlled by the interaction of a number of genes at ones,* it is possible to end up with a shift in the genes of the affected frogs over multiple generations* as those with the genes that allow them to produce the most offspring are going to pass on that combination of genes. As it involved multiple genes it will probably require a large number of generations, and I don't have a guess at this time how many it could take). Over generations, the genes specifying that type of plasticity could become fixed resulting in those frogs being genetically programmed for the change. *To determine how many generations it could take for those genes to become fixed would require both control enclosures and experimental enclosures that are rigidly controlled*. I suggest a review of the genetics of it may help clarify your questions. ( I thought this was covered to some extent in the anole paper I linked to above). 

Ed


----------



## jbherpin

As an update on the guy, I watched him VERY closely for about 15 mins while they were eating FFs. I was intrigued to see he was toe-tapping. IMO, this would suggest that he has good feeling in his legs, and is not as "numb" as he appears. This would further support that his short femurs are simply not allowing him to tuck his legs under in what would be considered a more normal posture. 

I will not breed this frog. I would not want to propagate these inferior genetics. He is an amazing case study, and a good learning experience for me.

Any thoughts on the implications of his toe-tapping?

JBear


----------



## JL-Exotics

In the frogs that I have seen with short femur syndrome, mobility of the hind limbs is not significantly restricted. If your frog is not utilizing it's rear legs to move around I would propose that you have more then one issue at work with this little fella.


----------



## jbherpin

JL-Exotics said:


> In the frogs that I have seen with short femur syndrome, mobility of the hind limbs is not significantly restricted. If your frog is not utilizing it's rear legs to move around I would propose that you have more then one issue at work with this little fella.


He uses them to hop, but cannot pull them underneath his body. He also does not walk ever. Only short hops to position himself for food prey using both legs at once. He does not use 1 back leg independant from the other.

JBear


----------



## earthfrog

jbherpin said:


> He uses them to hop, but cannot pull them underneath his body. He also does not walk ever. Only short hops to position himself for food prey using both legs at once. He does not use 1 back leg independant from the other.
> 
> JBear


I'm still betting on thermal damage to the nervous system from shipping stress. If the legs are the normal size/shape, I don't see that it would be a bone issue.


----------



## JL-Exotics

earthfrog said:


> I'm still betting on thermal damage to the nervous system from shipping stress. If the legs are the normal size/shape, I don't see that it would be a bone issue.


I think it's pretty evident from the photos that this frog has shortened femurs. The femur and the "shin" bone (tibiofibula) should be ~ equal in length. There is a nice diagram for reference here.

I would propose that we can confidently make this diagnosis based upon the photo evidence provided and the acknowledgement of the OP. I would further propose we call this issue #1 for this frog. 

Why this frog has short femurs is open to speculation, and Ed has kindly offered some possibilities. My limited research suggests that husbandry during tadpole or juvenile development is most probably related, but genentics and plasticity are also viable options IMO.

Based upon the symptoms noted by the OP:



jbherpin said:


> I received a frog in the mail. It is holding it's back legs very strange behind him. They almost appear useless...





jbherpin said:


> Just let it be said that his legs hang out at the back, are useless and he doesn't move anywhere. He just sits there with his legs splayed, staring.





jbherpin said:


> Is it b/c the legs ARE useless and the frog is unable to use the legs to aid in the removal of the skin?





jbherpin said:


> Ed-
> 
> I have asked what could be the cause for his legs not working...





jbherpin said:


> 10. His back legs are limp, lifeless, and just unnatural looking.
> 
> These are the facts. I am trying to get help, based on the facts...





jbherpin said:


> The legs aren't used, yet he is seen climbing on pothos,etc. He is eating when offered(however is restricted to FFs that venture "too close"). He is upright, alert, and the swelling seems to be lessening...





jbherpin said:


> Here is a pic taken today(3.13.11) of the crippled frog.


Even if the frog is able to hop now, it is pretty clear that the animal had some issues with the use of it's legs. The fact that you have seen improvement in the animal further supports this. Perhaps heat stress from having the heat pack to close to the deli cup during shipping, perhaps trauma suffered during packaging or shipping, perhaps damage from the cold temps during the shipping delay, or perhaps some other inherent defect that the animal may have triggered during a time of stress? 

The very first pictures provided (and all the pictures really...) show a robust frog that has appearantly had no trouble competing with tankmakes for food prior to shipping. A frog exhibiting the issues noted upon arrival would have been noted by the breeder or the frog would have failed to thrive with significant competition from siblings. 

So, I would propose that there are 2 or more issues presenting with this frog. Without an examination and work up by a qualified vet we are all just speculating. 

I think it's great that the little guy has hung in and shown some progress. And if it is otherwise behaving normally - i.e. hunting, climbing, pooping, responding to stimuli, fleeing for cover when you approach etc. then perhaps issue #2 has resolved or is resolving?


----------



## jbherpin

JL-Exotics said:


> I think it's pretty evident from the photos that this frog has shortened femurs. The femur and the "shin" bone (tibiofibula) should be ~ equal in length. There is a nice diagram for reference here.
> 
> I would propose that we can confidently make this diagnosis based upon the photo evidence provided and the acknowledgement of the OP. I would further propose we call this issue #1 for this frog.
> 
> Why this frog has short femurs is open to speculation, and Ed has kindly offered some possibilities. My limited research suggests that husbandry during tadpole or juvenile development is most probably related, but genentics and plasticity are also viable options IMO.
> 
> Based upon the symptoms noted by the OP:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if the frog is able to hop now, it is pretty clear that the animal had some issues with the use of it's legs. The fact that you have seen improvement in the animal further supports this. Perhaps heat stress from having the heat pack to close to the deli cup during shipping, perhaps trauma suffered during packaging or shipping, perhaps damage from the cold temps during the shipping delay, or perhaps some other inherent defect that the animal may have triggered during a time of stress?
> 
> The very first pictures provided (and all the pictures really...) show a robust frog that has appearantly had no trouble competing with tankmakes for food prior to shipping. A frog exhibiting the issues noted upon arrival would have been noted by the breeder or the frog would have failed to thrive with significant competition from siblings.
> 
> So, I would propose that there are 2 or more issues presenting with this frog. Without an examination and work up by a qualified vet we are all just speculating.
> 
> I think it's great that the little guy has hung in and shown some progress. And if it is otherwise behaving normally - i.e. hunting, climbing, pooping, responding to stimuli, fleeing for cover when you approach etc. then perhaps issue #2 has resolved or is resolving?


Very good analysis of this long term fight to find an answer! I think you are right. There are likely 2 issues. I think it is clear this frog has notably short femurs. That is a hinderance for the frog to begin with. Maybe the second issue was a fail in shippimg of sorts, whether it was a heat pack too close, prolonged exposure to rigid cold, mishandling when packaged, etc. 

JBear


----------



## earthfrog

JL-Exotics said:


> I think it's pretty evident from the photos that this frog has shortened femurs. The femur and the "shin" bone (tibiofibula) should be ~ equal in length. There is a nice diagram for reference here.
> 
> I would propose that we can confidently make this diagnosis based upon the photo evidence provided and the acknowledgement of the OP. I would further propose we call this issue #1 for this frog.
> 
> Why this frog has short femurs is open to speculation, and Ed has kindly offered some possibilities. My limited research suggests that husbandry during tadpole or juvenile development is most probably related, but genentics and plasticity are also viable options IMO.
> 
> Based upon the symptoms noted by the OP:


Yeah, I didn't look at the femur length, just the leg position. I bet it's also a combo of factors (_sort_ of like the myriad of things that can contribute to the condition known as autism with humans).


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## Ed

JL-Exotics said:


> I think it's pretty evident from the photos that this frog has shortened femurs. The femur and the "shin" bone (tibiofibula) should be ~ equal in length. There is a nice diagram for reference here.


I went back through the thread and virtually none of the pictures give a good comparision of the lengths of the tibia and fibia.. In virtually all of the pictures, the limbs are partially contracted which prevents a clear comparision between the relative lengths of the two legs. The closest you get is when the frog is posed upside down and even then they aren't really that good for a comparision. 
Ideally the frog would have the hind limbs fully extended as that would allow a comparision.. 

Ed


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## Bcs TX

While this thread has been going and going....
One question, have these pictures been e-mailed to a herp/amphibian vet? 
No offense, Ed and Jeremy both of you are are large contributors to the hobby and the frogs and papers, experience is great, a experienced Vet can give info as well. I do not want to sound like a "fly in the ointment" per se but to be honest I would not go to a "Cat Forum" to diagnose an illness etc. with my cat, maybe discuss it and learn from others experiences etc. then consult a Vet.
JB I am assured you decided not to breed this frog, kudos. Even if it is environmental etc IMO when there is a question they should not be bred.


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## Ed

Bcs TX said:


> While this thread has been going and going....
> One question, have these pictures been e-mailed to a herp/amphibian vet?
> No offense, Ed and Jeremy both of you are are large contributors to the hobby and the frogs and papers, experience are great but sometimes an experienced Vet can give info as well.QUOTE]
> 
> See my comments in post #22 and again 29.


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## Bcs TX

Keep in mind how frogs shed.. they usually eat the shed.. if there was something that prevented the frog from eating the shed then it would result in a partial shed..

*I'm not a vet so my advice is not medical*. I don't see anything overt from your pictures but that doesn't mean there isn't something there as pictures unless taken from the correct angles may not provide information to people like me.. 


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbherpin 
Ed- 

I have asked what could be the cause for his legs not working, and have provided pics that illustrate the frog in as many ways as possible. Forget the shed skin if you like... What is wrong with my frog then? I wish I could provide better pics but I will not stress this obviously stricken frog any more than needed. He just sits in 1 place legs splayed with an obvious half-shed, and is responsive, but does not move, nor retreat in any way *when my hand gets close. 

* What I mean is I have tried to put my hand near him in an effort to see him MOVE AT ALL, and he just sits there and exists. I have not touched him once.

JBear 

*You have had conjecture (both by yourself and others) on causes that are not supported by the evidence you have presented. It is to those conjectures that I have responded.. *As I have stated before I am not a vet and the information you have provided does not supply enough information for a workup to narrow down the causes.. 

If I was going to run down a partial list of *hypothetical *potential causes of the symptoms you are seeing I would start it with something like the following (and this is not meant to be an inclusive list). 

1) Shock
2) Stress
3) possible trauma (although the pictures do not show any overt trauma) 

My comment about the pictures being unhelpful was not meant to be construed that you should continue to disturb the frog but a comment on how the pictures that were available were not as helpful as you may have wished. 

The frog has been subjected to significant stressors not including the shipping.. pictures were taken, the frog was fed, more pictures were taken, your have by your own admission continued to manipulate the frog (even if you didn't touch the frog it was an attempt to manipulate the frog) and I would be willing to bet are continually checking on it... at the very least by peeking in on it on a regular basis. 

*Either contact a vet for a consultation (example Dr. Wright or Dr. Frye) *or appointment on Monday or leave the frog alone (if it is in an area of high traffic, cover the glass with something opaque and leave the frog alone) for whatever the breeder recommends. I would personally have left the frog alone for at least 24 hours (and yes that means I would not check on it, I would not put my hand in the tank and I would not attempt to feed it, I would not keep peeking at it, or walking by the tank).. 

*If you want a confirmed diagnosis on what is actually wrong with the frog.. you may either need a work up by a vet (possibly including an x-ray to check for broken bones) or a necropsy... *Ed 



Awesome Ed, Thanks!

As you know threads get long and after reading 11 pages etc......

-Beth


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## jbherpin

Everyone has been very helpful to me, and I owe you all my gratitude. Thanks for all the great advice, and patience as this thread has become very long. I think the end result is that we will not know until I am able to have him VET checked. I think it's an appropriate time to retire the thread. When and if A VET is able to conclusively find something to blame I will post it here.

Thanks again to all who contributed toward my knowledge and the well-being of the poor guy. 

JBear


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## JL-Exotics

Bcs TX said:


> While this thread has been going and going....
> One question, have these pictures been e-mailed to a herp/amphibian vet?
> No offense, Ed and Jeremy both of you are are large contributors to the hobby and the frogs and papers, experience is great, a experienced Vet can give info as well. I do not want to sound like a "fly in the ointment" per se but to be honest I would not go to a "Cat Forum" to diagnose an illness etc. with my cat, maybe discuss it and learn from others experiences etc. then consult a Vet.
> JB I am assured you decided not to breed this frog, kudos. Even if it is environmental etc IMO when there is a question they should not be bred.


Ahem... 



JL-Exotics said:


> So, I would propose that there are 2 or more issues presenting with this frog. *Without an examination and work up by a qualified vet we are all just speculating. *


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## JL-Exotics

Ed said:


> I went back through the thread and virtually none of the pictures give a good comparision of the lengths of the tibia and fibia.. In virtually all of the pictures, the limbs are partially contracted which prevents a clear comparision between the relative lengths of the two legs. The closest you get is when the frog is posed upside down and even then they aren't really that good for a comparision.
> Ideally the frog would have the hind limbs fully extended as that would allow a comparision..
> 
> Ed


Check the photos in post #4 and the first picture in post #56. Despite the angles the femurs look much shorter then the tibiofibula - IMO. I thought the OP confirmed this at some point in the discussion.

I think the photo you reference of the upside down pose was actually the 1st frog that arrived DOA! It has normal looking femurs. As does the 3rd frog (replacement frog #2) shown in post #66.

In the end, Beth is right. A vet should be consulted and a course of treatment (if directed) initiated. There has certainly been ample time for this to occur.


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## jbherpin

If people were still curious about this frog, here are some new(3.31.11) pics.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/579294-post27.html

I will be posting any updates there from now on...

JBear


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## dartfrogsandhabitats

Hi, I have the same problem with my green and black panamanian auratus. 
My husband and I have had and bred Dart Frogs for 20 years. I have a Green and Black Auratus,purchased from another breeder about 1 1/2 ago. Since I have had him his back legs seem to be broken at time but not others. He gets around tank good, climbing up waterfall even. I dump flour beetle larvea (w/vitamins.. Repashy calcium plus) in front of him so he can eat (he can't move very fast) and he eats very well and seems to be in good health. I can actually pick him up he just seems limp. Sometimes he looks dead and I touch him and he gets up. The research I have done sounds like Splayed leg syndrome but that seems to be mostly front legs, not back legs. Maybe broken? Not sure. He seems to move them sometimes. I will try to attach picture Maybe someone can inform us. He is still doing fine.


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## Ed

If you meant spindly leg syndrome (SLS), that only occurs in metamorphic frogs.

There have been a number of potential causes of intermittent paralysis of the hind limbs put forth in the past. Impactions, insufficient calcium reserves, spinal damage all have been put forth as potential reasons. 

Some comments 

Ed


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