# I found my Summersi dead!



## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

This morning as i was feeding frogs i watched 2 of my Summersi shedding, now that i was about to mist their tank i found one of my females dead with her "skin" all over her.
What could have happened? Im so lost they ate well and were pretty chubby and active.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Did it look like they were having a problem shedding? Did you see more than one layer of shed skin? Either one is what I witnessed as chytrid symptoms.

-Nish



Devanny said:


> This morning as i was feeding frogs i watched 2 of my Summersi shedding, now that i was about to mist their tank i found one of my females dead with her "skin" all over her.
> What could have happened? Im so lost they ate well and were pretty chubby and active.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

It's probably too late, but the best way to get an answer on this is to have your frog necropsied. They decay very fast, and need to be properly preserved to be examined. Different labs require different preservation methods, and most require you to have the necropsy performed through a consulting vet, so you should talk with your vet and make advance preparations to get this procedure done so that you are ready when a frog does die unexpectedly.


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

When i found it dead it had a bit of skin left around its lower body, should i gut the tank? I will be contacting Dr Frye about chytrid.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

If one had it the others do now. Unfortunately fants are delicate frogs too. Try prophylactic treatment with Lamasil AT on the remaining frog. You need to switch containers, though. I'd send in a skin swab to pisces while you do the treatment and if it comes back positive, change it's enclosure.

Outside of chytrid, if you can't see anything wrong with the frogs and you've sent in a fecal sample, I doubt Frye is going to be able to help you. Always good to try though.

I'm assuming you're keeping them at proper temp/humidity levels and feeding them new (less than 6 month old) suppliments. Also, they should have plenty of leaf litter and places to hide (fants are the delicate type or so I've heard).

-Nish


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

Where would i get that medication?
When i bought them i asked the person when the last time he ran fecals was and he said less than a week, the temps are always in the 70's and the humidity is usually in the 80's, i do have leaf litter aswell as a bunch of broms and plants.

Im thinking of placing the other frogs in QT containers and gut the tank while i treat the other frogs and have fecals done again.

Thank you for your replies.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

I wouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly. Frogs die, sometimes for no obvious reason. Might be stress related, might be age related, might be disease related, could be anything really. Before you rip apart a tank and subject a delicate frog to potentially unnecessary treatments I would take some time to gather your facts. If you can have a necropsies done that would be best or have the remaining frog swabbed and tested that would be a good first step, otherwise I would sit tight on tearing everything apart.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Exactly what I was going to say.. 

Too many times we all jump to conclusions.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

JL-Exotics said:


> I wouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly. Frogs die, sometimes for no obvious reason. Might be stress related, might be age related, might be disease related, could be anything really. Before you rip apart a tank and subject a delicate frog to potentially unnecessary treatments I would take some time to gather your facts. If you can have a necropsies done that would be best or have the remaining frog swabbed and tested that would be a good first step, otherwise I would sit tight on tearing everything apart.


What he said.. until you get some tests done and the advice of a vet, don't do anything blindly.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

The necropsy won't test for chytrid. You can save a belly skin patch for a sample but I'd rather test the other frog. I'm scared of handling fants though as they tend to get stressed easily.

If the other fant was housed with the one that died it likely has all of what the dead one has. If it's something that only the dead fant has then it's something genetic or stress related that isn't going to tell you anything about the other frog and a necropsy costs a lot more than a fecal and a chytrid test from the remaining frog.

-Nish


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

A skin histology (which most frog necropsies will include) will reveal chytridomycosis.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

It's possible that it would it's also a lot less reliable than a pcr test. I would suppose that someone who does amphibian necropsies would know to look for but if I remember correctly it wasn't an easy thing to detect. When I was checking for costs of necropsies it was in the range of around 250-350 dollars. Why not do a fecal and a pcr test on the remaining frogs? One would need to preserve the dead frog immediately and I'm not sure that sort of thing is going to happen in this case.

If you know a cheaper source for a reliable necropsy, please let me know.

-Nish


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

nish07 said:


> It's possible that it would it's also a lot less reliable than a pcr test. I would suppose that someone who does amphibian necropsies would know to look for but if I remember correctly it wasn't an easy thing to detect. When I was checking for costs of necropsies it was in the range of around 250-350 dollars. Why not do a fecal and a pcr test on the remaining frogs? One would need to preserve the dead frog immediately and I'm not sure that sort of thing is going to happen in this case.
> 
> If you know a cheaper source for a reliable necropsy, please let me know.
> 
> -Nish


I already noted that it was probably too late to get the frog properly preserved for a necropsy.

And, no, it isn't going to hurt anything to run fecal checks or chytrid swabs. But will you please stop pronouncing your ignorance as the gospel truth. Chytridomycosis causes massive changes in the skin of amphibians, to the point that infection is pretty hard to miss in a skin histology. And necropsies can be had substantially cheaper than $250-$350, like in the ~$100 range (from the only two labs I have ever seen recommended on this board: Northwest Zoopath and Zoo Exotic Pathology). I note you have only been a member of this board for 8 months, I don't know how long you have been keeping frogs before that, but you (and a few others) sure seem to like making definitive pronouncements that aren't very well backed up. 

You would go a lot farther just offering your advice with a little humbleness, and not try to stomp all over other people with demonstrably incorrect information.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Ah well, think what you want fur. I had read somewhere that it wasn't so easy to spot and the only place I had been told to go for a decent amphibian necropsy (place forwarded to me by Ed Kowalski) quoted me around 250 dollars (or more). If I had known about the 100 dollar necropsys from people knowledgeable about amphibians, I would have had my last frog done. However, one pooled pcr test revealed chytrid on the remaining four. The one leuc that did die was in an ARS soak and lost at least two if not three layers of skin shed while soaking. I was also told by Oz that prophylactic treatment would be best before I got the results back as it doesn't really hurt the frogs that badly and he was very right. I would only have worried about the reaction due to stress in fants. Thanks for your input, though.

-Nish




Catfur said:


> I already noted that it was probably too late to get the frog properly preserved for a necropsy.
> 
> And, no, it isn't going to hurt anything to run fecal checks or chytrid swabs. But will you please stop pronouncing your ignorance as the gospel truth. Chytridomycosis causes massive changes in the skin of amphibians, to the point that infection is pretty hard to miss in a skin histology. And necropsies can be had substantially cheaper than $250-$350, like in the ~$100 range (from the only two labs I have ever seen recommended on this board: Northwest Zoopath and Zoo Exotic Pathology). I note you have only been a member of this board for 8 months, I don't know how long you have been keeping frogs before that, but you (and a few others) sure seem to like making definitive pronouncements that aren't very well backed up.
> 
> You would go a lot farther just offering your advice with a little humbleness, and not try to stomp all over other people with demonstrably incorrect information.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I would observe, if acting normal do nothing. If it is Chytrid it will show up quickly on the other 2 frogs. Chytrid usually shows up about 6 weeks after frogs are shipped and exposed to high altitude cold (low temps activate Chytrid). They can be treated successfully with fungal creme that has Miconozole however i would want to be sure they have it as the stress of treating frogs many times is as bad as the malady they have. I always saw Chytrid related to skin sloughing, the dead skin would be hanging 1 day and the frog would usually be dead the next or even later that day, the skin sloughing is the only visual clue I could pick up on. Good luck, those were/are very beautiful frogs.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Any update, how are the others doing?


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

Thank you for your concern.
I emailed the seller and he did state that the frog with the cross on its back was the oldest which leads me to believe he died of age, the others are acting and feeding normal...i have even gotten 2 new clutches but they always grow mold.


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