# 10 frogs dead in 5 hours???



## Guest (Nov 3, 2005)

Been sometime that this has happen because quite frankly I couldn't share this with anyone...........just too depressing. But at this point I think what happened to me might be quite revealing about why individuals are losing frogs for unexplained reasons and particularly thumbs. I think this is going to need our brain work to figure out and hopefully I can provide enough information to give you clues. 

I have 8 tanks and they are all thumbs of many varieties. They are on a rack with two shelves 4x4. When I got up in the morning I had all healthy frogs and in fact I spent about an hour enjoying them. I haven't lost a frog in over a year and that was a larger frog. I have never lost a thumb and most of my frogs are young, most less than a year. I also did my regular routine of misting down the tanks in the morning and feeding. On a pretty regular habit I will put a ff culture in the tanks with the frogs so they have constant food and that was the case this morning. in fact I took out all the old cultures in all 8 tanks and put in 8 new cultures. The food source has been the same and I have not monkeyed around with the mix. Again I have to say the all the frogs were in GREAT health and I had no questions about any of them. All the tanks have individual thumbs in them except for one and this one I have a mix of 3 species. They were in a type of limited quarantine for about 2 1/2 months and I was about to break them up in the next week sometime. I never had any issues with fighting or anything that would cause concern.

Now for the awful part......

I left for a short work day and came home about 5-6 hour later. of course my first glance was to my frogs and to my horror the tank with the 3 species almost every frog was dead. Literally stretched out and dead not dying. I look over the tank next to it and the 2 in that tank are also dead. Same thing stretched out and dead/dead. These 2 tanks were on the bottom to one side. I of coarse have the fear that I have lost my entire collection to some THING??? As I look around the only deaths were in those tanks. They all share the same lighting, they all shared the same water bottle for misting in the morning. they all had the cultures taken from them and given new ones that morning form the same batch of cultures. So here is the puzzling part besides this mysterious and complete death scenario. In the tank with the 2 frogs there was only 2 and the both were dead. In the tank with the 3 species there were 12 frogs, 4 of each species. 2 of the species died completely and one species had absolutely no loss! I know that some of you will be curious which one died and which ones live and lets just assume the strong durable ones lived but what in the world could kill these so quick and completely yet left the rest of my collection in tact? There have been no deaths sense. Here are things I've mulled over, heat from lights(but seems unlikely), some chemical or aerosol made its way to those two tanks(my family swears that on that day they weren't in that part of the house), something got on the outside of the 2 cultures were that frogs died(but seems a little odd that they ended up right next to each other), Parasite or disease(seems very unlikely that quickly with that exact group) I am baffled. hopefully what I provided or can remember from your questions will alert all of us to whatever caused this. Any input would be great.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Is there any other heat source near those two tanks? Does the sun hit those tanks? Is there a radiator near by?


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2005)

With a sudden group death like this, there was clearly some type of sudden environmental change in those three enclosures that was not noticeable by the time you returned. Heat, cold, water contaminates, and gas are the usual suspects, unless you have an army of insects infesting those 3 tanks. For your own safety, I would work on ruling out the water contaminates and gas possibilities first. You may want to test for NOx, COx, and natural gas levels in your place. Also, if you do not treat or settle your water, you may have gotten a batch of highly fluorinated or chlorinated water or water with another chemical additive. Next, try to work on the temp possibility. Was there any condensation on the outside or unusual condensation on the inside of the tanks when you came back? Do you have children or pets in the house who like windows or themostat dials? Finally, check all your electricals. Do the tanks have heaters or items inside or touching their exterior? If none of this stuff reveals anything, please tell us the species that died and the species that lived in that one tank. I have a feeling that they hung out in different parts of the tank or have different capacities for heat, and that may be revealing too.


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

My first thought was carbon monoxide. It is starting to be heating season in a lot of places, and now is when CO poisonings start in earnest.

I'd be very careful. If you have gas or oil furnace, make sure it is firing right. If you don't have a carbon monoxide detector, get one. If you start to feel dizzy, tired, or nauseated when you are in the frog room, get the heck out. Don't stop to rescue small animals, just get out...

Not meant to be alarming, and it probably _isn't_ life threatening, but it is definitely worth taking this seriously. Small animals are usually more sensitive to environmental toxins than large ones, think canary in the mineshaft.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Although you should verify that it is not the issue for your own safety I would rule out CO pretty quickly because it is fairly indiscriminant and would not have targeted one or 2 species in your mixed tank. I would apply the same set of reasons to the water and airborne contaminants. I know from experience that some species are much more sensitive to water borne contaminants or high levels for chlorine and all the things that municipalities use in water to make it safe, but again I would think that spraying with contaminated water would have at least some effect on the rest of the population in your collection. 

I think the key is to focus on the community tank. The only thing I have ever seen that kills one species and leaves another alone is heat. In my experience fantasticus are much more temperature sensitive than imitators, others species are more or less sensitive to varying degrees. I would really check to see if there was a temperature spike in the area you keep the tanks. You do not give a lot of info about it… but do you live in a place where the heat just came on, are the tanks near a heat source, could someone in your family been playing with or fixing the heater, etc. Like some of the others said try to rule out heat as a possibility. 

Now here is the disclaimer, that timeline is really fast for a temperature spike to cause the frog deaths. I lost frogs when the temps were above 90 for a few days, based on that and the sudden deaths, I think the temps would have to be pushing or in excess of 100, to kill the frogs that fast…. Is that possible?

If Ed K sees this he might be able to suggest a parasite or pathogen that could cause this, but again I would think it would be less selective in your community tank. 

Keep us posted on any other information you might come up with. 
Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A couple of questions

1) how tightly sealed are the tanks?
2) how large are the cultures that you put in the tanks
3) in the multispecies tank, was the species that survived the more arboreal one? 


I highly doubt that it was a pathogen as pathogens do not typically cause massive deaths in multiple tanks within the same time period. (there are exceptions but I think we need to rule out other items first). 

Please answer the above question as I have a strong canidate in my mind. 

Ed


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2005)

My first thought was also some kind of gas that was floating around. I remember hearing about something somewhere (sorry to be so specific) that a small animal died becuase it was more sensitive to released gas in the home.


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## bjdwa (Nov 26, 2004)

That really sucks, sorry for your loss. I hope you figure it out.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2005)

> Is there any other heat source near those two tanks?


No there is only one heat source in the home and the sun had no way of getting to them.......maybe in the winter but not now and certainly not in the late summer when this happened.



> there was clearly some type of sudden environmental change


I agree strongly.



> Heat, cold, water contaminates, and gas


I really don't think that heat or cold had anything to do with it. They are in my lower level and the AC is just not set that low and has not been a problem all summer. as far at heat this is definitely suspect for me BUT why only two tanks the bottom four tanks share the same light bar and I just find it hard to believe that it somehow spiked. I am using T5 and they sit 4" about the tops and I had them on a short light cycle. They were only getting 6 hours a day. The water I use is well water from 440 feet down into a aquifer that is know to be very good but has high iron content. There is no chemicals added to this water - knowingly. I do not treat it and never have. As far at the gas this was one of my first concerns but there was no heating and the family members that were home actually claimed that they just weren't in the lower level that day. One event did happen but I find it hard to believe that it had this impact. A pizza was heavily burned up stairs to the point it was black. Even when I came home 3 hours after I could smell the heavy burnt oder. As far as CO2 or other gases I don't think so and I have a Nighthawk Carbon Monoxide Detector plugged in right next to the tank, I also have them through out the house. The tanks had there regular condensation on the inside and humidity levels on the each tank was the same and proper, I use the digital ones. I have children but the youngest is 10 and none of them would dare effect the frogs, they are just as important to them as me. I do have a small 13 lbs dog that lives down stairs. No tank heaters, I have never needed them. 



> My first thought was carbon monoxide


I really don't think it was this but thanks for the warning as well.



> I would think that spraying with contaminated water would have at least some effect on the rest of the population


I agree and I just don't think it would've had such a quick and decisive kill like this.



> I think the key is to focus on the community tank. The only thing I have ever seen that kills one species and leaves another alone is heat. In my experience fantasticus are much more temperature sensitive than imitators


I didn't want to share which species because I wanted to see if anyone mentioned something on their own, thanks. So here is the layout
Top row where all lived from left to right. Imitators, Retics, Lamasi P, Vents. All these lived. Bottom row from left to right. Mixed tank, Lamasi green leg(dead), Imitators, and Intermedius. So the 2 Lamasi green leg are ones that died. In the mixed tank I had Amazonicus(died) Fantasticus(died) and lastly Quivitatus(All lived). As you can see I was simply horrified that the mixed tank was one of the two that had this happen.



> 1) how tightly sealed are the tanks?
> 2) how large are the cultures that you put in the tanks
> 3) in the multi species tank, was the species that survived the more arboreal one?


1. they are exoterra's and they are petty well sealed except for two spots. the front door in the middle has a slit and the top by the light I have a 2" vent hole.
2. The cultures are 32 oz.
3. See above.

Well thanks everyone for the investigative help. I am left with 3 possibilities that I see but find each one hard to expect and definitely no real confirmation. 1. Some kind of gas. 2. Heat possibly from the light. 3. Food contaminated. We haven't talked much about this but I was wondering if maybe something got on the culture containers that the frogs then touched. Or could a culture get old and rot or go stale and have a problem. The cultures I put in were neither new or real old.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2005)

Unfortunately I am leaving for the weekend and will not be able to respond to additional questions till Monday.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If there had been a die off over several days, then I would be more likely to suspect a pathogen. The rapid, massive die off is strongly indicative of a poisioning or heat related event. If these are brand new setups or the lights have been upgraded (not simply changing the bulbs) then I would have considered the lights to have put out too much heat. This does not seem to be the case based on the description. This leaves poisioning as the strongest possibility and there seems to be no extraneous sources for this for example, painting, plumbing with PVC etc. 

So the strongest suspect in my opinion is carbon dioxide (CO2). FF cultures can produce a lot of CO2 (and the cultures placed into the enclosures were large cultures). The production of CO2 would have been increased if the conditions in the tank were warmer than the conditions in which the cultures were normally kept as this would have increased the biomass and metabolism of the yeast very quickly. 
In addition, the terraria needs to be considered to be a living organism to some extent as the decomposition of materials releases CO2, the plants during the night release CO2. So in the morning, the levels of CO2 are at thier highest point and the addition of the cultures would have pushed the levels higher. 
I'm not sure how the territoriality worked out in the multispecies tank, but if the surviving frogs were pushed a little higer in the tank or were shyer so they would not come down to feed until later they could have survived the C02. (This could have also occured as a pulse, the CO2 could have killed the frogs before the lights warmed the tank sufficiently to create the draft to allow for a temperature induced airflow. The condensation indicates that there may be a low rate of air turnover). 
I suspect that a number of conditions had to come together to make this happen (such as temperature, age, condition, and activity of the culture) leading to the deaths of the frogs. 

The only bright side to this, is that this probably was not due to a pathogen, the tanks, misters etc would not need to be stripped down and disinfected or discarded. 

My thoughts,

Ed


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2006)

The exact same thing happened w/ my auratus's. @ auratus's, eating good, moving good, perfectly healthy. I came home one day, and BOOM! they were dead? I have no idea what happened. Sry for ur loss considering the amount u lost, hope everything else is ok though......


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2006)

Ok, I only have a little experience with poison dart frogs and thumbnails (two localities of d. pumilio) but I will give my personal observations in hopes that they may be some help. I noticed that a similar post was made a couple months ago and it included feeding the dart frogs by putting cultures in the terrariums (which I would assume are smaller if they are housing thumbnails). I keep my fruit fly cultures in a small air-tight container so they do not smell up my apartment. When I open the containers holding my fruit fly cultures it smells like wine. I do not know why this happens, I am assuming that the culture is fermenting. The smell can be overwhelming at times. The cultures smell so bad at times my "gut" instinct tells me that it is important to open each culture to air them out. I am not sure why this happens. I assume it is because I am putting too much yeast into my cultures? I get very good production via this method. Also, keeping the container sealed keeps the cultures humid and warm, which seems to achieve higher production. My comment and question is, what is the wine smell? Could this build up in a terrrarium, even if the smell is undetectable when handling the culture outside of the terrarium? It seems to me that the smell is pretty potent but obviously not lethal to the flies but maybe to the frogs? This brings up the question is it necessary or a risk to place fruit fly cultures in a terrarium? My d. pumilio seem to do well on just one or two feedings a day as there is always some loose flies that survive previous feedings. (and I understand that this does not apply to all thumbnails as I know pumilios are definately one of the easier thumbnails to keep) 
Also, I have a lot of experience in fish care and I am not awar of any mysterious pathogens that would kill an entire tank, or at least most of the inhabitants that quickly. Usually a total die off will occure when something like too much CO2 is pumped into the tank (as Ed suggests) or there is an excess of waste levels in the water but that usually does not come on so suddenly. Sorry for the long rant and hope you find something of use


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The wine smell is due to the fermentation of sugars by the yeast and resulting in ethanol production. By keeping the cultures in an unvented enclosure you are actually increasing the potential for alcohol production by reducing the availability of oxygen to the culture. If you did not routinely air out your cultures, the flies would probably suffocate due to the CO2 production from the culture. 

Ed


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