# 10 year old frogs legs collapsing



## CAMI>> (Sep 29, 2013)

Hello, 

One of my dart frogs front legs have started to look weak and kind of looks like they are collapsing(not sure how to describe this) The feet look like they turning backwards? It is no longer eating and has become very skinny. I am not sure if this its just getting to the end of its lifespan or how to proceed next. I have not been able to find a vet that works with dart frogs in my area. Any suggestions are welcome, thanks!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Please answer the following questions to help us advise:

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## CAMI>> (Sep 29, 2013)

Frog is about 10-11 years old, Auratus. There is one other frog in the tank, Leucomelas. There were originally three but the other one died a year after we got them, he was showing the same signs of the front legs getting deformed looking and unable to hop around, I took him to vet in Cali. and they tried supplementing him with a shot, he thought that he grew too fast and didn't have enough nutrients. We ended up having to euthanizing him. My husband got them from a breeder in my college town, I don't believe he is still doing it, that was almost 11 years ago. 

No supplemental heating. The tank stays in my room, I've never had an official way of checking the temps. I keep my house in the low 70's. 

I use a general Edison 13w lightbulb for the lighting for the plants, I don't believe it adds any extra heat. 

I mist every other day by hand with distilled water. 

Two screen ventilations on top of the vivarium. 

Food is fruit flies that I buy from Petco and I dust them with Repcal Herptivite with beta carotene and Repcal Calcium with Vitamin D. I store it the fridge but my husband has forgotten to put them back and they have been left on top of the tank a couple times over night. I did recently just get new ones, I buy supplements every six months. I feed them every other day, about 50 (I think) each time. 

I never touch them. There is a candle in the room that I light some times but it's not by the tank. 

Recently she has been having a hard time catching the flies. 

I included pictures of the vivarium, need to wipe down the inside of the tank. The guy who I got them from (he built the vivarium) said I wouldn't need to change out the bottom stuff, just add new leaves when they start to break down. But last year a white substance started showing up under the leaves. I assumed it was because we moved and the new tap water was different so that's when I switched to distilled.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

CAMI>> said:


> I dust them with Repcal Herptivite with beta carotene and Repcal Calcium with Vitamin D.


This stands out as a potential cause of the problem. If you are using this product per label directions (mixing the two together 50/50, then using that mix to dust every fly at every feeding) it is likely that your frogs are getting enough Ca and Vit D. But, this product does not have preformed Vitamin A, which a lot of evidence shows they need. Hypovitaminosis A causes frogs to develop "short tongue syndrome" and be unable to catch prey. 

The frog in the photo is pretty emaciated (from inability to eat, presumably) and may have been on the edge, calcium wise, even when eating properly. That plummeting calcium intake likely caused the hypocalcemia in the legs.

Going forward:

-- use only Repashy Calcium Plus as a supplement on every prey item offered, and
-- don't cohabitate different species. There may well be pathogen involvement in the low calcium issue. Before reusing that viv for other frogs, it would be very prudent to tear it down and fully disinfect it, including all hardscape, substrate and plants.

Also, not that this is a cause of your issue, but it looks like that viv is on the small side. Three _Dendrobates _are best kept in a viv minimally around 24 x 18 x 24".


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## CAMI>> (Sep 29, 2013)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This stands out as a potential cause of the problem. If you are using this product per label directions (mixing the two together 50/50, then using that mix to dust every fly at every feeding) it is likely that your frogs are getting enough Ca and Vit D. But, this product does not have preformed Vitamin A, which a lot of evidence shows they need. Hypovitaminosis A causes frogs to develop "short tongue syndrome" and be unable to catch prey.
> 
> The frog in the photo is pretty emaciated (from inability to eat, presumably) and may have been on the edge, calcium wise, even when eating properly. That plummeting calcium intake likely caused the hypocalcemia in the legs.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your help, I really appreciate it. What do you suggest for my current frog? Do you think it will be able to come back from this if I get the required supplement?

Also, when you say going forward only use Repashy Calcium Plus do you mean I don't need any other supplement at all? I used to use the Repashy but after my first frog died I read that wasn't enough so I switched the supplements. That was a long time ago though. I want to make sure I am giving the right supplements.


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## CAMI>> (Sep 29, 2013)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Please answer the following questions to help us advise:
> 
> 1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?
> 
> ...



I added the reply below.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

CAMI>> said:


> Thank you so much for your help, I really appreciate it. What do you suggest for my current frog? Do you think it will be able to come back from this if I get the required supplement?
> 
> Also, when you say going forward only use Repashy Calcium Plus do you mean I don't need any other supplement at all? I used to use the Repashy but after my first frog died I read that wasn't enough so I switched the supplements. That was a long time ago though. I want to make sure I am giving the right supplements.


"Repashy calcium plus" is a complete, all in one, supplement for dart frogs, no other supplement is typically required.


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## CAMI>> (Sep 29, 2013)

fishingguy12345 said:


> "Repashy calcium plus" is a complete, all in one, supplement for dart frogs, no other supplement is typically required.


Do you think this could reverse my frogs current health issues?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

CAMI>> said:


> Thank you so much for your help, I really appreciate it. What do you suggest for my current frog? Do you think it will be able to come back from this if I get the required supplement?


Really, in such an extreme case a vet should make the diagnosis and prognosis. 

I personally don't have any experience force-feeding frogs, but that would likely be necessary at this point. Also, the (suspected; I'm just a guy on the internet) nutritional deficiencies have to be corrected ASAP; a vet could administer transdermal retinol and calcium gluconate, but there is still the issue of likely bone malformation in the front legs. And if there's a parasite playing a role (not unlikely), that would have to be diagnosed and treated.

Again, I think this is a serious medical situation that is best addressed by a competent exotics vet if an attempt is to be made to extend the frog's life.



CAMI>> said:


> Also, when you say going forward only use Repashy Calcium Plus do you mean I don't need any other supplement at all? I used to use the Repashy but after my first frog died I read that wasn't enough so I switched the supplements. That was a long time ago though. I want to make sure I am giving the right supplements.


Yes, that's what I mean -- 'Repashy Calcium Plus' is a complete supplement for non-breeding dart frogs. 

As to someone recommending otherwise, that was either a misunderstanding (Repashy makes dozens of products, and perhaps one of the others was confused with 'Repashy Calcium Plus'), or partial misinformation (usually breeding frogs need a bit more Vitamin A/retinol than Repashy Calcium Plus provides, but this isn't needed for non-breeding frogs), or complete misinformation.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I should've put this in the last post -- you can search for a qualified exotics vet here:

ARAV Vet search


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## CAMI>> (Sep 29, 2013)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I should've put this in the last post -- you can search for a qualified exotics vet here:
> 
> ARAV Vet search


Thank you so much for you help, I am kind of a mess right now because I don't think I will be able to get her into a vet before it's too late (if that's not already the case). The only exotic vet near me has a long wait list. I will buy the Repashy now for my other frog. Thank you for all of your advice. I truly appreciate it.


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

Hello,
I am sorry to hear about your frog. 
He Probably has some major nutrient deficiencies. As Socratic Monologue said, we are all just people on the internet. I strongly encourage you to contact a qualified exotic veterinarian. Unfortunately, the frog will probably not make it. However, you can use the information from your vet to improve your chance of success with the other frog. It is clear that you care about these animals, and I hope you consider doing some further research and trying again at a later date. You will see many, many threads about this, but NEVER mix frog localities or species. Dendrobatid morphs and species are all genetically distinct, and should remain that way. Many of these frogs are threatened in the wild, and their only chances of survival is responsible propagation through the captive trade. If you decide to continue with the hobby, PLEASE stick with one type of frog per enclosure. You see zoological institutions mixing frogs for their displays. This is purely for the visitor experience, and most responsible facilities will have many isolated breeding groups behind the scenes, not pulling any offspring from displays that are mixed. Even so, I wish they would create displays for specific species. Again, I am very sorry to hear about your frog. These things are always a bummer. I recently got a female Eurydactylodes occidentalis to pair with my male(my favorite gecko species, as you can see from my username). She was doing fine, then one day I found her dead in her enclosure. It happens to all of us. Don’t beat yourself up-learn and improve 
best,
Oscar


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

I would like to add that he lived a decently long life. The expected captive lifespan for Auratus is 10-20 years, with 10 being a very long life for a wild specimen. Now, this does not mean that you did things perfectly, but everybody makes mistakes. 
best,
Oscar


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

CAMI>> said:


> Thank you so much for you help, I am kind of a mess right now because I don't think I will be able to get her into a vet before it's too late (if that's not already the case). The only exotic vet near me has a long wait list. I will buy the Repashy now for my other frog. Thank you for all of your advice. I truly appreciate it.


Yes, I think that even in the best of cases regarding vet appointments, you shouldn't expect a positive outcome in this particular situation. If someone sees reason for more optimism, I hope they chime in.

If you decide you need this, here is a thread discussing proper euthanasia. In that thread, there is a link to an article by Ed Kowalski; I've just skimmed that article and all the recommendations look to be accurate and up to date (*EXCEPT* "if the amphibian is small (<40 grams)" should read "if the amphibian is small (*<4 grams*)". I believe this is a typo, and a bad one at that.)

If you need a walk-through on the procedure, just ask here.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

the reflector and bulb directed right onto the top glass is scary. Place you hand right underneath the glass -is it hot? If it's hot to the touch, there is a good chance you are cooking your frogs. 75F is a good easy to remember temp to shoot for....a little higher (day) and lower (night) is ok but try for 75F. I recc lights always have at least 1-2 inches of airspace before the glass top.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

CAMI>> said:


> No supplemental heating. The tank stays in my room, I've never had an official way of checking the temps. I keep my house in the low 70's.


You can pick up an IR temperature gun for relatively cheap and just check your tank‘s internal temper every now and then (and in several spots in the tank, as you should expect a reasonable range of cooler and warmer areas). That way you can have an idea of the conditions.


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