# Dead Sylvatica



## JJuchems

It happens and it sucks. I just have no idea what happened. Here is a picture of the frog and a look at the tank. Any thoughts?

18x18x24 Exo Terra, two frogs one found dead one MIA right now. 










Here is there tank:









I have two others, perfectly fine in this tank:


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## NickJR

How long have you had them and did you get them from UE or someone else? If someone else did you have them checked for parasites?

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## NickJR

Btw sorry for your loss

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## JJuchems

UE, fecals were normal. I got them in the Sept shipment. I am hoping to replace it, possibly add one or two. I just an questioning everything now from the broms, ect.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Ouch man, ouch. Hopefully it is just a fluke thing and not something systematic where you have to worry about your other frogs.


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## sports_doc

Jason,

Very sorry man. That stings.

I had a couple of them not do well also.  Personally I thought it was male male 'aggression/ intimidation' in my case, but...

I heard from another NY frogger who lost his as well, so who knows. 

I did not fecal mine, although I did send off swabs for Chytrid PCR testing when I was testing other animals as well, and they were negative.

Shawn


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## JJuchems

Thanks Shawn, 

I was hoping other had information. It does sting, but hopfully it will not happen again. I did not PCR or swab. Hopfully the other is ok, if I don't see it I guess time to breakdown the tank, which I hate to do.


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## Scott

I've had male aggression (I've got 3 males out of 4 frogs, 4th is unknown) - but not so bad that anyone has even lost weight.

The tank they're in is big (33*17*22) so that helps.

The frog in question almost looks like it spazzed at the end. This could very well be normal in death (no matter what), but it is something I noticed in the picture.

Sorry for your loss Jason.

s


sports_doc said:


> ... I had a couple of them not do well also.  Personally I thought it was male male 'aggression/ intimidation' in my case, but...


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## ilovejaden

is the MIA frog a male also?? Sorry about the loss man.


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## JJuchems

Went on a run and decided to pull all the broms and search the leaf litter when I got back. No signs of the other so it looks to be a double loss. The broms were growing well. I have about 8 new pups. The leaf litter was covered with iso and springs. I hate taking down a tank with good growth. 

About half the broms have spines. It has never been an issue with pumilio, has anyone had issues with histo's or sylvatica with these types of broms?


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## ChrisK

I'm sure you know but just be extra sure, they can hide REAL well even down in brom axils/leaves.
Too bad you can't get a necropsy done seeing a couple of others lost some too recently, it doesn't look like your case was aggression.


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## JJuchems

Thanks Chris, 

I rinsed them all and then placed them in a critter keeper. Some leaf litter and substrate came out of the broms but that is it. 

Fingers crossed they stay this way, but my other two are doing great.


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## thedude

Scott said:


> I've had male aggression (I've got 3 males out of 4 frogs, 4th is unknown) - but not so bad that anyone has even lost weight.
> 
> The tank they're in is big (33*17*22) so that helps.


Ya same here. I had 3 males in an 80 that did fine till about a month ago when I separated them because they were fighting constantly. 

Perhaps it was too much aggression in a small tank. Sorry for your loss.


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## JJuchems

I don't believe it was aggression at all. While I am not in my frog room all day, I never saw aggression. I believe their is an underlying issue and am pretty disappointed.


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## Dizzle21

JJuchems said:


> I don't believe it was aggression at all. While I am not in my frog room all day, I never saw aggression. I believe their is an underlying issue and am pretty disappointed.


say if it was aggression, wouldn't you have a dominate male surviving? Correct?


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## JJuchems

That is what tends to happen. While stress can bring on secondary issues, it tends to be the bullied frog that has the issues, not the dominate. 

Thanks for the PM's from those who lost some of these frogs. I don't feel quiet alone in the issue.


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## thedude

JJuchems said:


> I don't believe it was aggression at all. While I am not in my frog room all day, I never saw aggression. I believe their is an underlying issue and am pretty disappointed.


I was just taking into consideration that the others you have are fine in a different tank. These 2 could have been co-dominant and stressed each other out. I've also heard that some don't do well by themselves in a tank. Perhaps the dominant one caused the other to die, and then it just didn't do well?

That being said they are farm raised so they could definitely have had something. But why only in one tank?


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## Taron

Sylcatica do not like high humidity enviroments. That is all I will say.

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## A&MGecko

Hmm, this thread just made me worry. I have a group of these in a very large tank (4 feet wide, 2 feet tall, 16" deep). I see no aggression as of now, I have no calling yet and all the animals seam to be very fat and healthy as of now. Any of you that have bought some of these animals have seen fighting even before any of them start calling? I figure I let them grow and as I start earing calls make decision on separating males and making paring accordingly. I was thinking that 2 males could be fine in such of a big tank but after reading this I may reconsider and separate them as I go. Looks like all the animals have found their territory in the tank, but I just don't want to take risks. Anyone who has more experience has any good advice on this take? I spend a minimum of an hour or more watching this tank every morning to try and see if any of the animals call after misting, they sure are my favorite frogs, but I see no aggression at all right now, I see only that some frogs are more bold and come out more, a few that are always on the ground looking for food, but also a few that stick in the broom and just eat the food rooming on their leaf, all the animals look to be in good fat shape as of now but I take suggestions on this matter. 
Sorry, I don't mean to take over your thread, but I think any good info on these animals can be of a good use for everyone that bought them.
Thanks Alberto


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## SmackoftheGods

[removed content here]

Apparently some people ARE having issues with these frogs.... I'm not, though. My understanding is my neighbor to the north of me isn't either.... I have to imagine there's a husbandry issue going on. I don't believe UE would send out diseased frogs, and if they are diseased it seems like it would be a more universal problem.... Curious....


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## A&MGecko

My questions are about husbandry, in my opinion the frogs I received are some of the healthiest frogs I have received and did very well from the get go. I just want to try and minimize possible mistakes from my part and lose any animals because of that. Sharing information is the best tool we have to make avoidable casualties at minimum.
Alberto


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## markpulawski

It almost seems like there was something environmental, like something that was put into the tank harbored a bacteria that spread to the frogs, a horrible stroke of bad luck? If this were present when shipped my assumption would be that it would manifest itself right after shipping and the frogs would have succumbed in the first week or 2 at most. Very strange, it would be helpful if more that suffered loss would explain their circumstances. Sorry for your loss Jason, the hobby is no fun when expensive frogs die.


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## Tinctoc

So sorry for the loss. I truly hope you get to the bottom of it so that we gain some knowledge and insight for future reference.


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## Blue_Pumilio

This is where a good $400 necropsy with histopaths answers most if not all of these questions. It could just be a fluke, animals do die. Find a good vet now that can perform/offer this, it's saved my butt more then once.


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## frogfreak

markpulawski said:


> the hobby is no fun when expensive frogs die.


Or *in*expensive...

I understand that these guys are special, Jason. Best of luck and I hope you find out what the issues are!


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## zach77

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Sylcatica do not like high humidity enviroments. That is all I will say.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Wikiri's website mentions a humidity level around 90% for breeding.


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## Taron

zach77 said:


> Wikiri's website mentions a humidity level around 90% for breeding.


I am having lots of success with average humidity levels and lots of air circulation. I am just offering up an opinion and if you dont want to listen then that's fine. The frog had a bacterial infection that is caused from lack of air flow. Lots of people on this site are killing them because of this exact reason and it is making me sick to my stomach.

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## zach77

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I am having lots of success with average humidity levels and lots of air circulation. I am just offering up an opinion and if you dont want to listen then that's fine. The frog had a bacterial infection that is caused from lack of air flow. Lots of people on this site are killing them because of this exact reason and it is making me sick to my stomach.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Don't be so sensitive. I don't think I made any mention of not wanting to "listen" I just thought it was important to point out how the organization successfully raising these Sylvatica is doing it.


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## A&MGecko

> I am having lots of success with average humidity levels and lots of air circulation. I am just offering up an opinion and if you dont want to listen then that's fine. The frog had a bacterial infection that is caused from lack of air flow. Lots of people on this site are killing them because of this exact reason and it is making me sick to my stomach.


Good info, maybe that is why mine are doing so well, I have PC fan on all my tank running with the daylight timer, 12 hours on and 12 off, so far my animals are doing great. I had asked Robb Melancon in an email some advices a while back, he mentioned air circulation, air circulation and air circulation, lol, I put PC fan on all my tanks except a few pumilios tanks that will be upgraded, those seam to don't mind it as much tho as they are breeding really well in that set up.
Alberto


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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I am having lots of success with average humidity levels and lots of air circulation. I am just offering up an opinion and if you dont want to listen then that's fine. The frog had a bacterial infection that is caused from lack of air flow. Lots of people on this site are killing them because of this exact reason and it is making me sick to my stomach.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Was the cause documented by a necropsy? Can you post a copy of the report? I'm skeptical since that isn't quite how infections work in amphibians..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Blue_Pumilio

Gotta agree with Ed on this one, it really could be anything (and doesn't sound bacterial). I had some Tentacled snakes (_Erpeton_) die from what I assumed was a bacterial infection. Well, a necropsy, cultures, and some histopaths brought up a few things:

Liver Flukes that caused significant destruction of the liver
Two types of Gram positive opportunistic bacteria 
And the kicker....chytrid! 

Turns out the liver flukes were causing organ failure while the chytrid was causing skin issued and the bacteria was just an afterthought. Cause of death....liver flukes! 

After that episode, I'd never trust visual observations alone. A few dead snakes helped me save all the others. It was costly, but well worth it. 



Ed said:


> Was the cause documented by a necropsy? Can you post a copy of the report? I'm skeptical since that isn't quite how infections work in amphibians.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Taron

Yes several people had soil samples and skin samples done. I personally haven't had any issues. This is just some advice i feel like needed to be shared. I am not allowed to sell on here anymore so I have no reason to offer my advice other than to further the hobby. It is truly said to watch these be killed do to lack of knowledge. My advice is from personal experience and success and is not second hand so that is why I offered it. 

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## Taron

Obviously it can be from anything and with out test being done no one can be for sure. I just looked at the size of the tank and how it was set up. Which allowed me to form my theory on what happened. Judging by the sores on the frog as well it appears to be bacteria formed on the skin. Air circulation allows the skin to dry enough and not allow bacteria to form and grow on the frog and the environment. Stagnant warm moist air will only help bacteria to form. 

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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Yes several people had soil samples and skin samples done. I personally haven't had any issues. This is just some advice i feel like needed to be shared. I am not allowed to sell on here anymore so I have no reason to offer my advice other than to further the hobby. It is truly said to watch these be killed do to lack of knowledge. My advice is from personal experience and success and is not second hand so that is why I offered it.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


 
So just to be clear you don't have any documentation? 


Ed


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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Obviously it can be from anything and with out test being done no one can be for sure.


so why are you stating it as a fact? Either it is a fact or it isn't. 



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I just looked at the size of the tank and how it was set up. Which allowed me to form my theory on what happened. Judging by the sores on the frog as well it appears to be bacteria formed on the skin.


How did you differentiate between baterial, fungal and viral sores? Frogs imported from Europe are at risk to be infected with a ranavirus that causes sores in adult anurans.... 



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Air circulation allows the skin to dry enough and not allow bacteria to form and grow on the frog and the environment. Stagnant warm moist air will only help bacteria to form.


Let us clear up a couple of misconceptions right here and now.... 
1) air circulation doesn't have anything to do with the level of humidity. They are independent of each other... 
2) Really Taron? Let the frog's skin dry out? Since frogs skin is kept perpetually moist, and is it documented that if they do "dry" out it can seriously damage the frog or kill it. 
3) Again, really Taron? The factor that allows for bacterial growth has nothing to do with non-moving air... moisture and humidity allows for bacterial growth... and since the conditions in the enclosures are kept moist, bacteria are going to colonize all surfaces. Even at humidities lower than we would keep the frogs, bacteria can colonize them. Some taxa such as a lot of the gram negative bacteria have capsules which are made up of polysaccarides which can absorb enough moisture from the air and allow them to survive and grow on surfaces that appear to the eye to be dry. Many of the pathogens of the frogs are gram negative and yes, a number of them do have capsules including some that are most frequently found as pathogens in frogs...... 


Now let's be clear, I think that often people keep the frogs in conditions that aren't conducive to optimal health but people should also be looking for facts instead of dogma. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Taron

I guess my lack of not fully explaining every detail and not filling in the common sense blanks was to much. 

The tanks I am running are exo terra tanks with three fans and humidity is only kept at around 40-60%. The misting system kicks on 6 times a day for 15 seconds each time. My frogs also have access to water. My soil is dry my plants are dry my air is dry. If my knowledge in successfully breeding these guys doesnt want to be used then what do i care. A friend of mine ran his frogs in glass tanks with no vents. The exact sores developed on his frogs. I explained to him that he was keeping them to wet allowing the environment to develop bacteria. He changed the habitat and now his are breeding. [removed content here]

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## Taron

More literally his ammonia and nitrites are probably sky high in his soil. I would start by checking your soil and like i said before no one knows what happened to the frog with out actual evidence.

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## Blue_Pumilio

The ammonia and nitrite level (what about nitrates?) are pointless without also observing the pH level, as this directly relates to how toxic they are. I have also never even heard of problems with this in substrate (with exceptions to the effcts of fertilizer)? Am I missing something? I would think the plants and the bacteria present would keep make sure this wasn't an issue. 

If the frog has/had sores, I'd do swabs for bacterial cultures as well as send off swabs for rana and chyrtrid. That would at least bring the possibilities down. 



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> More literally his ammonia and nitrites are probably sky high in his soil. I would start by checking your soil and like i said before no one knows what happened to the frog with out actual evidence.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I guess my lack of not fully explaining every detail and not filling in the common sense blanks was to much.
> 
> The tanks I am running are exo terra tanks with three fans and humidity is only kept at around 40-60%. The misting system kicks on 6 times a day for 15 seconds each time. My frogs also have access to water. My soil is dry my plants are dry my air is dry. If my knowledge in successfully breeding these guys doesnt want to be used then what do i care. A friend of mine ran his frogs in glass tanks with no vents. The exact sores developed on his frogs. I explained to him that he was keeping them to wet allowing the environment to develop bacteria. He changed the habitat and now his are breeding. [removed content here]


Taron,
Again, you are ignoring the facts of microbial ecology and growth. Simply because on appearance it looks dry to the eyes, doesn't mean it isn't dry enough to stop microbial growth... You are confusing correlation with causation.. and don't have anything to prove that it is due to excess microbial growth. 

As I noted there are a lot of pathogens out there that cause sores on the frogs and you have not demonstrated anything that proves that the ones you are referring to are due to bacteria... 

I'm flagging this since your throwing things out there as fact when they are flat out wrong and it can have a long-term potential damage for the hobby..... 

As for excess humidity, I think you check my posts, I've been pointing out physiological issues with too much humidity for quite a while now.... 

Now if you had simply stated that you felt that inadequate air circulation or excess humidity was the problem, then I would have passed that by.. it was only when you started adding opinion based on an incorrect understanding of the ecology of the microbes that it got flagged... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

Blue_Pumilio said:


> The ammonia and nitrite level (what about nitrates?) are pointless without also observing the pH level, as this directly relates to how toxic they are. I have also never even heard of problems with this in substrate (with exceptions to the effcts of fertilizer)?


And you shouldn't unless the substrate is so saturated/compacted that it is anerobic.... The reason is because an uncompacted/saturated substrate due to it's microbial populations are able to not only convert but sequester nitrogen hundreds of times more efficiently than an equivalent amount of filter materials in water. If I have to, I can dig up the actual references but for those who have a copy, there is a brief discussion on it in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium (with associated citations to refer to if one chooses); Echinodorus Press. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Taron

Agreed

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## Ed

Lets get back on track for a real discussion... 

Since the frogs in question were real legal imports and not laundered, we know something of thier history which was that they were sustainably produced (these were actually farmed). 

This brings up to the first thing we should consider which is maladaption syndrome... This in and of itself can explain the loss of a fair number of frogs since frogs that are genetically intolerant of certain conditions are more prone to loss. 

If we can rule this out, then we need to start looking elsewhere. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

I just reviewed the care sheet from WIKIRI since it was referenced earlier and was apparently ignored. 
This frog has a relatively narrow window of conditions in which to successfully reproduce (see Dendrobates sylvaticus). 

It should be noted that those producing the frogs out of country recommend 90% humidity and a relatively narrow temperature band 23-27 C with death occurring above 27 C

If people are tightly sealing thier tanks to achieve the 90% humidity then I would not be surprised to see that the frogs are dying from an inability to use evaporative cooling to prevent death. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## curlykid

Ed, is it possible though that if the tank is sealed tightly but with internal air circulation as opposed to stagnant air the frogs could still become ill? And also do you have any research documents on maladaption syndrome? i'm just curious about it.


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## JJuchems

curlykid said:


> Ed, is it possible though that if the tank is sealed tightly but with internal air circulation as opposed to stagnant air the frogs could still become ill? And also do you have any research documents on maladaption syndrome? i'm just curious about it.


However in my case I have two tanks of these frogs. Both glass top Exo. The other pair seems to be doing fine. I will be running fecals on them. In fact they were sharing a brom earlier. 

My goal of this post is to get info out to help stop/prevent this happening to someone else. Thank you to those who have pmed/email/called me concerning "Paru" deaths. For some reason people want to keep it quit, and I will keep it quiet to who lost frogs. I have a tally of 30+ that have died in keepers hands, and well qualified keepers.


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## Scott

I have my system misting fairly often (about the same schedule as Taron) - but I also have a 1.5 inch vent all the way across the top of the tank.

That may not seem like much - but here in Tucson the humidity is way lower than elsewhere - so I do get drying in the tank.

I'm also using a clay substrate. Lots of nooks/crannies - nothing anaerobic going on in there.

I've SEEN aggression in my males (3 of 4 frogs are confirmed males) and they all are still robust and healthy.

I'd suggest that Taron might be on to something here.

I'd also suggest that Taron not take things personally and post things that I have to edit (please).

s


Ed said:


> ...
> 
> If people are tightly sealing thier tanks to achieve the 90% humidity then I would not be surprised to see that the frogs are dying from an inability to use evaporative cooling to prevent death.
> 
> Ed


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## curlykid

JJuchems said:


> However in my case I have two tanks of these frogs. Both glass top Exo. The other pair seems to be doing fine. I will be running fecals on them. In fact they were sharing a brom earlier.
> 
> My goal of this post is to get info out to help stop/prevent this happening to someone else. Thank you to those who have pmed/email/called me concerning "Paru" deaths. For some reason people want to keep it quit, and I will keep it quiet to who lost frogs. I have a tally of 30+ that have died in keepers hands, and well qualified keepers.


I wasn't referring to your setup, just wondering. and has anyone thought of telling Mark Pepper or Wikiri know about the situation? i think they probably would like to know so that they can re-evaluate if needed.


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## JPccusa

Ed said:


> ...
> 
> It should be noted that those producing the frogs out of country recommend 90% humidity and a relatively narrow temperature band 23-27 C *with death occurring above 27 C*
> 
> If people are tightly sealing their tanks to achieve the 90% humidity then I would not be surprised to see that the frogs are dying from an inability to use evaporative cooling to prevent death.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


In other words, similar to heat stroke in humans. 



curlykid said:


> Ed, is it possible though that if the tank is sealed tightly but with internal air circulation as opposed to stagnant air the frogs could still become ill? ...


If you are referring to Ed's post I just quoted above, I can say that evaporative cooling needs air at a lower humidity in order to work. To recirculate air would do very little to evaporative cooling. Here is some basic information on the principle: Evaporative cooler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## curlykid

gotcha, thanks.


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## Ed

curlykid said:


> Ed, is it possible though that if the tank is sealed tightly but with internal air circulation as opposed to stagnant air the frogs could still become ill?


The answer to this is maybe. It is going to depend on a number of things including size of the enclosure and temperature extremes. 




curlykid said:


> And also do you have any research documents on maladaption syndrome? i'm just curious about it.


There is an extensive body of literature on it since it has been recognized as a potential issue since at least the 1960s. The best summary of it I've seen to date is in Health and Welfare of Captive Animals (book) as well as the discussion in Mader's Surgery and Reptile Medicine. 

Ed


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## Ed

JJuchems said:


> However in my case I have two tanks of these frogs. Both glass top Exo.


Despite being set up the same, it doesn't mean that there weren't thermal issues in one tank and not the other. Keep in mind that there are a lot of variables that can modify enclosure temperatures including drafts (as one example). 




JJuchems said:


> My goal of this post is to get info out to help stop/prevent this happening to someone else. Thank you to those who have pmed/email/called me concerning "Paru" deaths. For some reason people want to keep it quit, and I will keep it quiet to who lost frogs. I have a tally of 30+ that have died in keepers hands, and well qualified keepers.


And that is a good reason, however we should also scrutinize the information for incorrect assumptions. 

Ed


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## curlykid

Ed, did some reading on it and it seems that maladaptation syndrome mainly deals with the refusal to eat food items that are not common to the animal's original habitat/enclosure. or does it deal with a whole broad spectrum of problems?


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## frogfreak

curlykid said:


> Ed, did some reading on it and it seems that maladaptation syndrome mainly deals with the refusal to eat food items that are not common to the animal's original habitat/enclosure. or does it deal with a whole broad spectrum of problems?


Here you go, Nick. It can mean many things.

Maladaptation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ed

curlykid said:


> Ed, did some reading on it and it seems that maladaptation syndrome mainly deals with the refusal to eat food items that are not common to the animal's original habitat/enclosure. or does it deal with a whole broad spectrum of problems?


 
It deals with a much greater spectrum of problems. For example, there can be adrenal acclimation/maladaption issues. In this case, stress increases the levels of circulating corticosteroids, but if the stress is constant and doesn't fluctuate, the animal can adapt to those levels... those that don't adapt to those levels die... If the levels of stress fluctuate frequently, then that tends to be much more likely to cause the death of the animal... 

Now where this is important is that increased levels of corticosteroids decreases the ability to respond to immune challenges so until the animal acclimates, it is predisposed to infections. 

I really suggest the book I mentioned above... 

Ed


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## Ed

To expand on this a little.. one of the things that demonstrate maladaption is a reduction or loss of fat bodies due to changes in the metabolism 
see for example (if I remember correctly) 
Cowan DF. Adaptation, maladaptation and disease. In: Murphy JB, Collins JT, editors. Reproductive biology and diseases in captive reptiles, SSAR contributions to Herpetology number 1. Lawrence,KS: Society for the​Study of Amphibians and Reptiles; 1980. 191-6 p. 

Ed


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## thedude

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Sylcatica do not like high humidity enviroments. That is all I will say.


Everything I've read on sylvatica seems to disagree with this, including wikiri and the habitat these frogs are in.



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I am having lots of success with average humidity levels and lots of air circulation. I am just offering up an opinion and if you dont want to listen then that's fine. The frog had a bacterial infection that is caused from lack of air flow. Lots of people on this site are killing them because of this exact reason and it is making me sick to my stomach.


Disagreeing with you isn't not wanting to listen, it's called having a discussion, don't take it personally.

Anyone who has seen my setups knows I don't have much in the way of airflow, and I mist a lot (for part of the year anyway). I haven't had any problems with my 3 frogs.



JJuchems said:


> I have a tally of 30+ that have died in keepers hands, and well qualified keepers.


Isn't that around 40% of what has come in so far? Why were they fine in UE's care for several months and now people are having trouble?

I'm interested in the fecal results. You should have fecals done on the 2 that are fine as well, so we know if it's something they all had or just the 2 you lost.


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## BlueRidge

Ed said:


> It deals with a much greater spectrum of problems. For example, there can be adrenal acclimation/maladaption issues. In this case, stress increases the levels of circulating corticosteroids, but if the stress is constant and doesn't fluctuate, the animal can adapt to those levels... those that don't adapt to those levels die... If the levels of stress fluctuate frequently, then that tends to be much more likely to cause the death of the animal...
> 
> Now where this is important is that increased levels of corticosteroids decreases the ability to respond to immune challenges so until the animal acclimates, it is predisposed to infections.
> 
> I really suggest the book I mentioned above...
> 
> Ed


Is this similar to stress and high blood pressure in humans?


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## Ed

JaredJ said:


> Is this similar to stress and high blood pressure in humans?


Can't answer that since I haven't dug into the literature to compare it. 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods

Ed said:


> It should be noted that those producing the frogs out of country recommend 90% humidity and a relatively narrow temperature band 23-27 C with death occurring above 27 C
> 
> If people are tightly sealing thier tanks to achieve the 90% humidity then I would not be surprised to see that the frogs are dying from an inability to use evaporative cooling to prevent death.


This is the comment that I find the most interesting.... Do the frogs really need a lot of ventilation unlike all other dart frogs, or is it just that they have a different temperature necessity? It would seem a little strange that a frog so closely related to the pumilio and histrionicus I'm working with would have vastly different needs to humidity and ventilation... but considering that amphibians are particularly sensitive to temperatures that get too hot, who's to say that it's not actually an issue with temperature?

Scott says he's noticed benefits to having some extra ventilation, but Scott also lives in Arizona, one of the hotter regions in the nation.... Is it really that they need ventilation, or do they need to be kept cooler and the ventilation helps with evaporative cooling in such a hot area?

I seem to have noticed lately a growing dogma that temperature is not something to worry about. Which makes sense since most people who get into dart frogs come from other hobbys working with herps (snakes and lizards especially) and worry about how they're going to HEAT their frogs.... I've seen several posts about how frogs can actually stand significantly higher temperatures than your standard 73 degree room temperature (although most of the more experienced froggers mentioning this do mention the necessity for ventilation - I was a bit perplexed, but taking into account the new information of evaporative cooling, actually makes a lot of sense). Clearly, temperature ought to be taken into account....

Tons of things can account for temperature flux. I keep my frogs in the basement to keep them cooler. I keep my cooler frogs on lower shelves on my racks (like bassleri) and my hotter frogs on upper racks (reticulatus comes to mind). Keeping lights too close to the tanks.... Drafts from heaters or coolers in different areas of the room (or just drafts in general).... If you're keeping your tanks closer to the 80 degree mark rather than the 70, you might need to look in to making a change for your sylvaticus tank.

Ultimately, I, like Adam, can only attest to my experience. But my frogs have lights that only affect my sylvatica tank minimally, it is a sealed enclosure, in the basement, on the floor (not on an upper rack where heat from lower lights will increase their temperature. Despite my completely lack of ventilation, my frogs are doing just fine, and have been since their first shipment....

I won't deny the POSSIBILITY that the frogs came in with something, and that we should probably perform tests for pathogens on these frogs JUST IN CASE. But all of my experience with Mark and his frogs suggests to me that we ought to be looking at our own husbandry for them. If this is a particularly sensitive frog, but we're treating them like every other frog, then we only have ourselves to blame....


----------



## SmackoftheGods

JJuchems said:


> I have a tally of 30+ that have died in keepers hands, and well qualified keepers.


Where is this number coming from?


----------



## JJuchems

SmackoftheGods said:


> Where is this number coming from?


Individuals emails and PM's about loosing Paru. I am not going to argue there story vs mine, he said she said. If someone ordered 6 and lost 3 I am going to take their word for it. I was surprised by the amount of contact I received concerning these frogs. 




thedude said:


> Isn't that around 40% of what has come in so far? Why were they fine in UE's care for several months and now people are having trouble?


I thought is was around mid 30% range, but I maybe wrong. 



thedude said:


> I'm interested in the fecal results. You should have fecals done on the 2 that are fine as well, so we know if it's something they all had or just the 2 you lost.


Working on it and on my replacement order.


----------



## Ed

SmackoftheGods said:


> This is the comment that I find the most interesting.... Do the frogs really need a lot of ventilation unlike all other dart frogs, or is it just that they have a different temperature necessity? It would seem a little strange that a frog so closely related to the pumilio and histrionicus I'm working with would have vastly different needs to humidity and ventilation... but considering that amphibians are particularly sensitive to temperatures that get too hot, who's to say that it's not actually an issue with temperature?


What we are looking at is the effective critical thermal maximum for a species. Now this temperature isn't locked in stone since there are things that can modify it (speaking solely with respect to amphibians). For example, the temperature at which an amphibian was acclimated can influence the Tmax by as much as 5 degrees or more.... 




SmackoftheGods said:


> I seem to have noticed lately a growing dogma that temperature is not something to worry about. Which makes sense since most people who get into dart frogs come from other hobbys working with herps (snakes and lizards especially) and worry about how they're going to HEAT their frogs.... I've seen several posts about how frogs can actually stand significantly higher temperatures than your standard 73 degree room temperature (although most of the more experienced froggers mentioning this do mention the necessity for ventilation - I was a bit perplexed, but taking into account the new information of evaporative cooling, actually makes a lot of sense). Clearly, temperature ought to be taken into account....


When we look at the actual temperature reports for where the frogs are found as well as those that have been studied for temperature preferences, there is an acccumulating body of evidence that indicates that the low 70s F may not be the best regimen for the frogs with respect of year round conditions..... (for example auratus if given the choice selectively deposit tadpoles where they remain as close to 78 F as possible since that is the optimal temperature at which the tadpoles grow (see Influence of parental care behaviors on offspring fitness in the green and black dartpoison frog (Dendrobates auratus) by Ben Chan )). In most people's enclosures there is a heavy trend towards the dogma that the frogs require extremely high levels of humidity to do well and this has resulted in a trend of sealing up tanks as much as possible (search most new build discussions by beginners)... Now tightly sealing an enclosure plays a direct role in how temperature is going to impact the frogs as well as what the frogs can do physiologically and behaviorally. Extremely high humidity levels are going to prevent the frogs from being able to utilize evaporative cooling and tightly sealed enclosures with uniformly wet substrates are going to restrict behavioral and physiological responses towards thermal regulation. This is important when we consider that these are diurnal species and as such are active during periods where they can be exposed to direct sun (while it is known mainly from primary forests it also inhabits edge regions indicating exposure).. as with other diurnal anurans, it has to be able to respond to increases in body temperature....and by tightly sealing tanks we remove some of these options.. 

This is actually a good discussion on how important evaporative cooling can be http://www.science.siu.edu/zoology/sears/TracyChristian2005.pdf 

There is a decent body of literature on the topic for those who wish to dig deeper. 

Some comments (off to bed). 


Ed


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## SmackoftheGods

^^ I thought that's what I said... just less science-y and without the specific examples.


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## gluedl

Sorry to hear about all these losses. 

I am currently finishing some vivs for the first european import of the paru and from the technical point of view, this is what I am using on my whitefoot and will use on the paru vivs:

- the vivs are vertical ones to achieve a 5°C temp gradient from the floor to the top, so the frog has the ability to choose his location to heat up and live. Min and Max values are 20 and 25°C.
- all vivs have 2 exhaust fans and 1 circulation fan to enhance evaporation, I aim at an air flow of 4 times the viv volume/hour. Exhaust fans stay out during night to get the high humidity at this point.
- the lighting is partially done with a solar raptor spot for UVA and UVB, the spot is placed on a 2mm silica glass piece that lets through 98% UVB as opposed to normal glass which retains about 50% and more
- an IR-A spot as described here

Datei:WIRA-Wiki-GH-002-de-wIRA-Strahler-Querschnitt.png

Infrared A has a deeper penetration then IR-B. The theory is the following: the frog measures it's heat level through receptors in it's skin, when these say temps are OK, the frog will try to stop heating up and go on with the rest of his daily activities. With IR-B only you cannot guarantee that the inner organs have the same temps as the skin (lower penetration) and according to Dr. Bretz, that would be one of the causes of yellow livers and so on. The inner organs just do not work at full efficiency when not at the right temp. This spot lights up after each misting and shut's down when the temp in the middle of the viv reaches 25°C

- inside the viv is a silica glass tube containing a UVC FL-Lamp (the ones used for water desinfection). The UVC are used to desinfect the viv. The silica glass tube to cut emissions under 253nm as ozone is produced at these wavelengths, which again is deadly for frogs. This one lights up for two hours at noon to simulate the highest light intensity at that time of the day.

Considering rain and humidity, dendrobase.de states :

- average: 70-80%
- noon lowest at about: 70%
- evening and night: 90%

Rain periods: from March to end of July heavy raining (this is the period where they tend to breed in nature), September to beginning of November rain, but not as heavy as before, November to beginning of March: "dry" period.

Then there are also the feeders. You will most likely have the best success with these frogs with a heavily diversed feeding with fruitflies being the least used of all. In Germany we tend to use a lot of pea and wheat aphids and wild collected bugs up tp 2mm im length.


These are informations I gathered through various pad casts, books and the internet. I am not lectured as some around here but open to remarks and critics.

Have a nice day


gluedl


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## Ed

gluedl said:


> paru vivs:
> The theory is the following: the frog measures it's heat level through receptors in it's skin, when these say temps are OK, the frog will try to stop heating up and go on with the rest of his daily activities.


As far as I can tell, frogs don't detect heat per se, they detect the rate of cooling... See for example Characteristics, specificity, and efferent control... [J Physiol. 1974] - PubMed - NCBI instead. This changes how they choose optimal temperature ranges since it is more about core body temperatures. 



gluedl said:


> With IR-B only you cannot guarantee that the inner organs have the same temps as the skin (lower penetration) and according to Dr. Bretz, that would be one of the causes of yellow livers and so on.


Yellowish color of the liver is associated with several disease processes but probably the most common one is going to be a fatty liver from obesity.. since obesity is common in captive amphibians. I'm not sure penetration of IR is going to change that impact. 




gluedl said:


> Then there are also the feeders. You will most likely have the best success with these frogs with a heavily diversed feeding with fruitflies being the least used of all. In Germany we tend to use a lot of pea and wheat aphids and wild collected bugs up tp 2mm im length.


I'm skeptical of the requirement for feeder diversity... since on analysis even wild collected feeders tend to be deficient in the same ways as commonly used cultured invertebrates. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

SmackoftheGods said:


> ^^ I thought that's what I said... just less science-y and without the specific examples.


I didn't interpret it that way but that could just be a personal difference. This is because to me there are competing dogmas with respect to temperature which you touched upon but to my interpretation wasn't totally clear on them. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## MPepper

I am sorry to hear about these losses.
First I am going to address the figure of losses that Jason put out there, (I have already addressed it personally with Jason). We have heard directly of reports of far far fewer, and I find it strange, but more than that, disappointing, that if people are indeed experiencing these losses that they would PM Jason on a forum before coming to us with the issue directly.
One important lesson that everyone need to take away from this is the reality that the large Oophaga species, long being heralded as “Holy Grail” species and species at the leading edge of the hobby really are something apart from the rest of the poison frogs. These frogs possess an almost uncanny level of awareness, a very deliberate behavior and manner of movement that sets them apart from other poison frogs, and of course males have an endearing soft “quacking” call. The successful care and breeding of these species over the long term can be considered a pinnacle achievement in the frog hobby, one which can be extremely rewarding for those willing to undertake the challenge. However, they can be temperamental, sensitive, and often times perplexing, and hold risks that are inherently involved with the purchase of any live animal, amplified further due to the higher cost and rarity.
Moving forward, assuming that WIKIRI succeeds in releasing other morphs or that Tesoros succeeds with histrionica or lehmanni, anyone seriously interested in acquiring these frogs should seriously reconsider whether or not they are truly up for the challenges these species present, and on an individual by individual basis an assessment has to made whether the opportunity to work with these species is worth it. While the appeal of these large Oophaga species is certainly nearly universal amongst hobbyists, they are definitely not well suited for everyone. Anyone considering purchasing large Oophaga in the future, be it WIKIRI stock or Tesoros stock if they be through us or from anyone else should keep the purchase within the perspective that what is being paid for is a unique opportunity to work with some really special frogs. With the acquisition of these frogs comes not only a challenge but a responsibility and an opportunity for the establishment of lines of these frogs in captivity and a chance to contribute to the pool of knowledge surrounding the husbandry of these species.
I recognize the disappointment felt by the few who have lost animals. WIKIRI has strived to send out the best animals possible, and we have done our best to care for and grow them out for several months until they are size and age we deemed suitable for shipping. Saying that, in the hopes of making perhaps a positive end to those who have had some negative results, we asked/and ask that those who lost animals contact us directly via email or phone so that we could/can discuss.
At UE we have held back several individuals from each shipment we have received in the goal of amassing a numerous and diverse breeding population of many animals representing as best as possible the natural variation within the morph. We have, over the course of the past year in which we have been keeping this species learned a few things we think might go a long way in helping others achieve similar success.
We suggest that these frogs grow and mature best when raised individually. While this is not standard practice with most poison frogs, where raising froglets and juveniles in small groups is the norm, we feel that with sylvatica, raising them individually 1) allows for easy and careful monitoring of the feeding and behaviour of each individual, and 2) prevents any stress involved from interactions and competition between other frogs regardless of the sex. 
After the frogs can be accurately sexed, then it is safe to introduce pairs into a spacious enclosure. We have raised a few groups of juveniles in small groups, but after witnessing a few “violent” episodes of aggression, and after having to isolate a few animals that appeared (stressed) from these groups, and finally after consulting with WIKIRI we have come to be of the opinion that raising these frogs to adulthood individually may be the best potential option.


----------



## A&MGecko

Guys, how about we compare notes between people who have bought them and what their status is as of now. In my long experience with geckos I have gained most of my knowledge by visiting people who have good success with animals and looking at their set up more then reading books. I do not want to say now that books are useless, but I have seen in many occasions that there are a lot of differences in the way a book tells you how to keep a species and have seen people doing set ups a lot different then the book and having great success in breeding the animals. In many instances I have copied the set ups and also experienced a big change on my success breeding. I see this thread going back and forth with people having different opinions on everything, why don't we compare notes on what everyone is doing?
Here I start.
This is my big tank (4 feet wide, 2 feet high and 16" deep) where I keep my Paru.








Lighting: I have a shop light with 2 bulbs, 1 is a 4 feet UVB zoo med 5.0 (followed suggestion from Gluedl and got it right the way) and the other is just a philips 32 watt daylight. Seams people have different opinion if UVB is beneficial to the frogs, in my opinion it will sure not hurt them, and I have seen my Paru, randomly sort of bask, just sit in a "sunny" spot and don't move, not sure if is for intake of UVB or just casual but like I said, it will not hurt the frogs to have it. I run light on timer, 12 hours on and 12 off.

Temps: I have my frog room in my basement so I am lucky I never have to worry about of to much heat, I have a heater set to go on at 69* (+/- 20 celsius) and my high never go more then 77-78* (+/- 25 celsius) so my temperatues range from 69* lowest to the most 78*

Misting: I have an R/O system and a mist king on timer, I mist 3 times a day for 1 minute, 1/2 hour after light on, at noon and 1/2 hour before light off.

Ventilation: I do use ventilation, (suggestion got from Robb Melancon he believes this is very important) my tank is a proteon build european style, with open ventilation to the bottom front glass and top front glass, I also added a PC fan to the top ventilation with an adjustable transformer, I can make the fan spin fast or slow, depending on how much humidity I want to keep, make season change much easier. I can see my humidity drop as low as 40% between misting, on the top and more open areas, but in the shade of some plants at the bottom I have some leaf litter then never dries out with higher humidity to around 60-70%. I run my ventilation system on the same timer of the light, so at night humidity goes as high as 80-90%.

Food: I seeded my tank with few different kind of springtails and isopods, I use different type of fruit flies and beans beetle and I use calcium and vitamin dusting in a rotation (both rapashy)

Frog situation: I got my group from the September import, all frog look good and fat, 0 casualties but no calling yet.

If anyone has any questions about what I am doing that I missed in my report feel free to ask. If other want to share their status I think this could be a good tool to compare notes. If anyone wants to suggest changes I should make to my set up, I take suggestions, I like those suggestions from people who have these frogs and having a good outcome of course. 

Alberto


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## A&MGecko

MPepper said:


> I am sorry to hear about these losses.
> First I am going to address the figure of losses that Jason put out there, (I have already addressed it personally with Jason). We have heard directly of reports of far far fewer, and I find it strange, but more than that, disappointing, that if people are indeed experiencing these losses that they would PM Jason on a forum before coming to us with the issue directly.
> One important lesson that everyone need to take away from this is the reality that the large Oophaga species, long being heralded as “Holy Grail” species and species at the leading edge of the hobby really are something apart from the rest of the poison frogs. These frogs possess an almost uncanny level of awareness, a very deliberate behavior and manner of movement that sets them apart from other poison frogs, and of course males have an endearing soft “quacking” call. The successful care and breeding of these species over the long term can be considered a pinnacle achievement in the frog hobby, one which can be extremely rewarding for those willing to undertake the challenge. However, they can be temperamental, sensitive, and often times perplexing, and hold risks that are inherently involved with the purchase of any live animal, amplified further due to the higher cost and rarity.
> Moving forward, assuming that WIKIRI succeeds in releasing other morphs or that Tesoros succeeds with histrionica or lehmanni, anyone seriously interested in acquiring these frogs should seriously reconsider whether or not they are truly up for the challenges these species present, and on an individual by individual basis an assessment has to made whether the opportunity to work with these species is worth it. While the appeal of these large Oophaga species is certainly nearly universal amongst hobbyists, they are definitely not well suited for everyone. Anyone considering purchasing large Oophaga in the future, be it WIKIRI stock or Tesoros stock if they be through us or from anyone else should keep the purchase within the perspective that what is being paid for is a unique opportunity to work with some really special frogs. With the acquisition of these frogs comes not only a challenge but a responsibility and an opportunity for the establishment of lines of these frogs in captivity and a chance to contribute to the pool of knowledge surrounding the husbandry of these species.
> I recognize the disappointment felt by the few who have lost animals. WIKIRI has strived to send out the best animals possible, and we have done our best to care for and grow them out for several months until they are size and age we deemed suitable for shipping. Saying that, in the hopes of making perhaps a positive end to those who have had some negative results, we asked/and ask that those who lost animals contact us directly via email or phone so that we could/can discuss.
> At UE we have held back several individuals from each shipment we have received in the goal of amassing a numerous and diverse breeding population of many animals representing as best as possible the natural variation within the morph. We have, over the course of the past year in which we have been keeping this species learned a few things we think might go a long way in helping others achieve similar success.
> We suggest that these frogs grow and mature best when raised individually. While this is not standard practice with most poison frogs, where raising froglets and juveniles in small groups is the norm, we feel that with sylvatica, raising them individually 1) allows for easy and careful monitoring of the feeding and behaviour of each individual, and 2) prevents any stress involved from interactions and competition between other frogs regardless of the sex.
> After the frogs can be accurately sexed, then it is safe to introduce pairs into a spacious enclosure. We have raised a few groups of juveniles in small groups, but after witnessing a few “violent” episodes of aggression, and after having to isolate a few animals that appeared (stressed) from these groups, and finally after consulting with WIKIRI we have come to be of the opinion that raising these frogs to adulthood individually may be the best potential option.


Hi Mark
I know you probably a very busy person, but if, when you have time, can post some PICS of your set up the way you raise these frogs individually, some basic informations on feeding, lighting, humidity, ventilation, minimum tank size for individual frogs and for a pair we should use, could help I think a lot of people who have bought these animals.
Alberto


----------



## sports_doc

Thank you all, and Mark P for adding in.

My assumption was that there will always be some losses when you take a stable # of animals from their home in Canada [or wherever] and ship to dozens of people.

They experience stress in shipping, then QT and treatment in new homes.

Happens.

So, why did so few contact you directly Mark? Probably b/c they figured like me, things 'happen'. Risk you take. Besides, it can be perceived as 'complaining' if someone mentions their losses. Even if their intent wasn't to get a refund/replacement.

Stigma of the hobby, and the challenge people have sometimes staying on the 'good side' of opinions.

I lost 3. I think aggression. I did not grow them out separately though. They appeared full grown upon arrival. I housed 10 total, 3 vivs [added from another frogger who got Marks imports].

My experience has been large obligates do not like small enclosures/ QT containers. [More of others experience, then mine, but that is what many who have worked with them believe]

In the case of most obligate egg feeders, multiple males don't seem to get along as well as 1.2, 1.3 ect type situations. So I like your recommendation of keeping separate until able to pair accurately....next time ;-)

Mine went in a new tank. Completely new/ no frog exposure supplies. Large, misting system, well vented but without fans. The tank dries a little too fast IMO, but I am adjusting to these new custom vivs from Protean and Sherman Tanks.

I am open to trying fans on some set ups and if anyone has a link to purchase a handful that would be great. They plug and play yes?

I did not fecal, but did sent PCR when I was testing other animals. Negative. I do not suspect any pathogens, as the animals were in perfect health upon arrival and the tank contents were non-frog as stated. Others did fecals and were neg, as well, and I was aware of this. 

I agree with the sentiment that large obligates may not be for everyone. Big investment in time, money, stress level. They have notoriously been hard to breed in consistent numbers. I really believe WIKIRI is successful only because they breed in situ/ naturally. 

Thank you all,

Best,

Shawn


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## JJuchems

Individuals asked for me not to disclose there names, again these are people contacting me via PM/emailing or calling me. I am taking people at there word. 

I had phone conversations with two people who are having issues with their Wikiri frogs and it is coccidiosis. Which as you know from my post I fecaled a week after arrival, no issue. Coccidiosis often goes masked in fecals and is brought on by stress. The albon treatment is doing well for them and their frogs. Shipping from you to me could have brought on that stress, and again I have not blamed you, death is just the part of this hobby that takes away the fun of it.

I also spoke with another person who has Paru with hookworm. They under treatment so we have to wait an see the results. 

I read the Wikiri care sheet, followed the Lotters text, and sought insight on husbandry from the EU. I chose the 18x18x24 Exo Terra terrariums with a MistKing system. I mist at 7AM and 7PM for 30 sec and used all new materials so I had invested an additional $600 in equipment and materials. I have not taken this purchase lightly.

I believe Individuals do not want people knowing they lost a sylvatica let alone $500+ in frogs. If the death happened a month+ after arrival, why would they contact you? I side with Shawn that individual do not want to appear that they are complaining and don't want others to know they lost a rare on the hobby and pricey species. 

As you should be aware there are plenty of people who are all about status and the collect them all mentality. I just want a frog I fell in love with as a kid, and I am just wanting a part of that in my home to share with my family. 

This thread is intended to bring the issue into the public so others do not have a problem. To many people remain silent and not seek-out/investigate what could have happened or just the weird science teacher in me comes out. 

Sorry for any spelling errors as I am posting from my phone and auto spelling takes over at times.


----------



## thedude

JJuchems said:


> I had phone conversations with two people who are having issues with their Wikiri frogs and it is coccidiosis. Which as you know from my post I fecaled a week after arrival, no issue. Coccidiosis often goes masked in fecals and is brought on by stress. The albon treatment is doing well for them and their frogs. Shipping from you to me could have brought on that stress, and again I have not blamed you, death is just the part of this hobby that takes away the fun of it.


If stress from shipping brought about the coccidiosis then why only in one tank? I think it is much more likely you have a tank with 1.1 or 0.2 that are doing fine and a tank that had 2.0 that were stressing each other out.


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## Ed

JJuchems said:


> I had phone conversations with two people who are having issues with their Wikiri frogs and it is coccidiosis. Which as you know from my post I fecaled a week after arrival, no issue. Coccidiosis often goes masked in fecals and is brought on by stress. The albon treatment is doing well for them and their frogs. Shipping from you to me could have brought on that stress, and again I have not blamed you, death is just the part of this hobby that takes away the fun of it.
> 
> I also spoke with another person who has Paru with hookworm. They under treatment so we have to wait an see the results.


Jason, 

If they came in infected with coccidia and/or hookworms, then I would expect a lot of them to show up with issues much earlier than now (given that the import was almost 5 months ago). If we are pointing a finger at the shipping as the stressor, people need to keep in mind that the physiological impact of stress from something like that lasts a relatively short period of time (approximately two weeks) so the infections should have caused issues fairly quickly after recieving the frogs. 

Again, if they are under fluctuating stress, infections should have shown up long before now... 

If people are seeing deaths from parasite infections this long after shipping, then I would actually suspect that there is either some form of more recent stress making them susceptiable to infection or that there was some form of cross infection occuring. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jeffr

I Pm'ed Jason rgarding my experience. The only reason I pm'ed him was I had to power since Monday due to hurricane. Plus I had to drive 2 miles just to get a cell phone connection. 

I had 3 out of 6 die on me. all 3 died within 3 weeks of each other. They were all housed separate. I contacted Understory after the 2nd one died just to ask if anyone else was having an issue or if they heard anything. I spoke to Elaine and she told me no one else contacted her regarding problems with the frogs. This was back in August I think. I also contacted Shawn at the time because I knew he had some as well. The 3rd one died a few days after speaking to Elaine

2 PCR tests were negative. 1st fecal came back negative and the 2nd one came back with a very small amount of hookworm. This was done prior to the frogs dying


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## JJuchems

thedude said:


> If stress from shipping brought about the coccidiosis then why only in one tank? I think it is much more likely you have a tank with 1.1 or 0.2 that are doing fine and a tank that had 2.0 that were stressing each other out.


Why can one frog die in transit and the others live? How can one frog develop a bacterial infection in quarantine and the others do fine without treatment? You are neglecting to look at it as an individual basis on a frog level and individual immune systems. These frogs were cupped in singles during shipping and were not introduced together until I did so in their current habitats. It only takes one frog compromised for it to spread to the rest of the tank, thus the loss of two frogs instead of four. But I am only using my frogs as an example. 

Klingberg (2007, pg 139) "The secret to treating coccidia is environmental control. A keeper needs to be an obsessive cage cleaner. To have a chance at breaking the exposure cycle with coccidia, you must reduce the cage to bare essentials." 

I have since broken down the tank and the MIA frog is still MIA assumed dead. I did have one injured with a blistered foot when it arrived. It was documented, UE was notified, and I believe is pictured on this site.


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## JJuchems

Ed said:


> Jason,
> 
> If they came in infected with coccidia and/or hookworms, then I would expect a lot of them to show up with issues much earlier than now (given that the import was almost 5 months ago). If we are pointing a finger at the shipping as the stressor, people need to keep in mind that the physiological impact of stress from something like that lasts a relatively short period of time (approximately two weeks) so the infections should have caused issues fairly quickly after recieving the frogs.
> 
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Not necessarily Ed. First my frogs arrived on Sept 12. Shipping stress could still cause disruption those first two weeks, cause inflectional build-up with a later death. I do not dig through my tanks when I don't see them, I assumed they are hiding. The MIA frog died, when I thought it was hiding. The 2nd frog infected at a later time and died. Either way, it is plausible that the frogs death in 60 days could be related to shipping stress.


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## MPepper

Shawn, thanks for your insights, that does make some sense.
to address the issue,
We have had more fecals done on sylvatica, and they have shown negative for coccidia.
That being said we have heard from someone (who I have nothing but respect for) who had coccidia results from one of the treefrog species. We have had negative results from those, but will retest, though what remain here are not from the same batch.
Going forward, all sylvatica stock in holding will remain in the quarantine facility, will be retested, continue to be housed individually, and we will raise them until the time they are fully grown/sexed adults ~summer 2013. At that point, we will make them available as sexed animals to those who lost animals should they still be interested so that they can rebuild viable breeding groups.


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## Ed

JJuchems said:


> Not necessarily Ed. First my frogs arrived on Sept 12. Shipping stress could still cause disruption those first two weeks, cause inflectional build-up with a later death. I do not dig through my tanks when I don't see them, I assumed they are hiding. The MIA frog died, when I thought it was hiding. The 2nd frog infected at a later time and died. Either way, it is plausible that the frogs death in 60 days could be related to shipping stress.


Jason, 

Quoting Klingenburg isn't ideal when discussing coccidian infections in amphibians... Unlike many of the reptile coccidians, many of the amphibian coccidians complete development before they are passed in the feces and can immediately infect tissues in the digestive tract or if reingested. The reason cleanliness is so important for reptile coccidians is that they complete development post passing of the fecal material... The way to control it in reptiles is to remove all fecal materials as soon as they are passed, this is very difficult if not impossible in a naturalistic setup. 

It is also pretty well accepted that invertebrates are able to transfer coccidians from one area to another... This means you have to control not only the potential passage of fruit flies from one enclosure to another but invertebrates from the outside getting into the enclosures (spiders, fungus gnats...)

For a much better (and updated) source of information than Klingenberg, I suggest Reptile Medicine and Surgery 2nd edition 2006, Saunders publication. 

If those two frogs were having symptoms from coccidia infections (since according to most literature (including Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, which states 


> In general, coccodian infections are relatively benign.....


 ) you should have seen weight loss, diarrhea and unusual fecals unless the infection was so severe that it destroyed the lining to the digestive tract in which case, you should have seen signs of dehydration (weight loss) and again, unusual fecals. 

For the second frog to have succumbed to coccidia, it would have needed to be consistently immunosuppressed since you recieved them..... since single stressors tend to only impact the animal for approximately two weeks. Even with your abbreviated timeline this is unlikely. 

In addition, infection is seen in compromised animals... and that coccidia are often seen in healthy animals. (and it should be noted that the only true way to determine if a frog is free of coccidia is to necropsy it).

I'm not sure what killed your frogs, but based on the case history, coccidia seems very unlikely.. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## JJuchems

JJuchems said:


> But I am only using my frogs as an example.


I have never stated that my frogs have/had hook worms or coccidia, but what other froggers have experienced. 



JJuchems said:


> Klingberg (2007, pg 139) "The secret to treating coccidia is environmental control. A keeper needs to be an obsessive cage cleaner. To have a chance at breaking the exposure cycle with coccidia, you must reduce the cage to bare essentials."


My point was mainly that it is an aggressive protozoan infection. I have dealt with it and in my experience has also been it takes weeks till death. I had it Dwarf Cobalts in 2004.


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## markpulawski

Who knows what killed these frogs and I hope you guys find out but it has been my experience that will larger Oophaga they always do better in larger tanks, I would suggest a 40 being a minumum, with a 75 - 100 being ideal.


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## Ed

JJuchems said:


> My point was mainly that it is an aggressive protozoan infection. I have dealt with it and in my experience has also been it takes weeks till death. I had it Dwarf Cobalts in 2004.


Jason, 

*The medical literature indicates that it is not aggressive unless the frogs are immunosuppressed.* I directly referenced the literature where it explicitly stated it tends to be benign. It also directly states that coccidia can be seen in the fecals of healthy/asymptomatic frogs. 

While you never explicitly stated your frogs had/have coccidia, you implied that was a potential cause of death. 

And I am going to repeat myself one more time... the only way to determine a frog is negative for a coccidia infection is through tissue examination during a necropsy. 


Ed


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## Taron

Scott said:


> I have my system misting fairly often (about the same schedule as Taron) - but I also have a 1.5 inch vent all the way across the top of the tank.
> 
> That may not seem like much - but here in Tucson the humidity is way lower than elsewhere - so I do get drying in the tank.
> 
> I'm also using a clay substrate. Lots of nooks/crannies - nothing anaerobic going on in there.
> 
> I've SEEN aggression in my males (3 of 4 frogs are confirmed males) and they all are still robust and healthy.
> 
> I'd suggest that Taron might be on to something here.
> 
> I'd also suggest that Taron not take things personally and post things that I have to edit (please).
> 
> s


I owe everyone an apology as my choice of words were horrible and I regret making that statement. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## mydumname

So I saw in the earlier pages a necropsy suggestion being tossed around and a price of almost $400. Now in most cases that is a significant price compared to the animal and it makes sense why some choose not to do them. Here is a rare situation where the necropsy might actually be less then the frog in price.

Have all the people who have these frogs or lost these frogs thought about sharing the cost and having one performed? PayPal makes it pretty easy to go ahead and do this. And the split cost would be pretty insignificant to the parties involved I am sure. And maybe something will be learned from it. And maybe your replacement frogs may be saved from it. Who knows. But a split cost seems like a win win for everyone working with these frogs.

Just some thoughts on something I was surprised not to read in these pages. If I missed it....I apologize.


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## slipperheads

mydumname said:


> So I saw in the earlier pages a necropsy suggestion being tossed around and a price of almost $400. Now in most cases that is a significant price compared to the animal and it makes sense why some choose not to do them. Here is a rare situation where the necropsy might actually be less then the frog in price.
> 
> Have all the people who have these frogs or lost these frogs thought about sharing the cost and having one performed? PayPal makes it pretty easy to go ahead and do this. And the split cost would be pretty insignificant to the parties involved I am sure. And maybe something will be learned from it. And maybe your replacement frogs may be saved from it. Who knows. But a split cost seems like a win win for everyone working with these frogs.
> 
> Just some thoughts on something I was surprised not to read in these pages. If I missed it....I apologize.


Causes of death for one keeper might be different from another keeper though. You can't assign a universal diagnosis to all frogs!!


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## Blue_Pumilio

Just a thought, but is there any reason people are not using real time PCR for testing coccida, instead of microscope using floats/smears? Seems far more accurate. 

Either way, even if they test positive for these parasites or something else, without wide evidence suggesting it came from the source, I would think contamination is more likely from the keeper. 

Plus, seeing the original speciemens, I would assume they were healthy and if there are a large amount of deaths it could be due to husbandry practices. Again, assume.


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## sports_doc

MPepper said:


> Shawn, thanks for your insights, that does make some sense.
> to address the issue,
> We have had more fecals done on sylvatica, and they have shown negative for coccidia.
> That being said we have heard from someone (who I have nothing but respect for) who had coccidia results from one of the treefrog species. We have had negative results from those, but will retest, though what remain here are not from the same batch.
> Going forward, all sylvatica stock in holding will remain in the quarantine facility, will be retested, continue to be housed individually, and we will raise them until the time they are fully grown/sexed adults ~summer 2013. At that point, we will make them available as sexed animals to those who lost animals should they still be interested so that they can rebuild viable breeding groups.


Thank you Mark,

'That' is the kind of response few will ever see from a 'typical' breeder/seller. I am certain other froggers here have experienced a more typical buyer-beware philosophy. I have. 

Appreciate your attention to detail and care.



I personally had previously been on the wait list for some high end tree frogs, and decided against getting them this Fall when offered. NOT because of any concern of mine about the quality of the animals, but TBH I needed to 'back off' on my high end/ high dollar purchasing until such time as my FR renovation was more complete and I could provide them the attention they deserved. Takes some guts to invest in the high end stuff and to be able to be 'ok' with risk/loss. Not for everyone, or even 'this one' all the time. 

Mark,

Can you give the folks here a better picture/idea of the type of individual housing you would recommend? Thank you.

Best,


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## mydumname

§lipperhead said:


> Causes of death for one keeper might be different from another keeper though. You can't assign a universal diagnosis to all frogs!!



Suit yourself but if I had these frogs and this happened I think it would be useful. Say they come back with something that may lead people to believe it is husbandry. That could solve future issues or.current ones for people with them
Say it comes back.a certain fungal parasite etc.....may give people a better direction in testing for what they have. May be more informative then a fecal.

No one said universal.diagnosis......rather just a possible better direction for people to.search for answers to their issues.

I'm not up for the cost risk of working with these frogs right now...nor do I have much interest in them to begin with....but if I put out $500 a frog....I would rather pay a few bucks more to have a better opportunity to knowing how to be successful. Or if I already put out the money...if rather put out a few bucks more before paying an additional.$500 an animal so I may be able to adjust things ahead of time.

Yeah nothing was said about universal diagnosis....I mentioned it as a learning tool.


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## ZookeeperDoug

I think we as keepers have a responsibility to find out what is going on. $400 may be a lot more to spend after losing a $500 frog, with probably at least $300 invested in vivarium and husbandry, but a correct diagnosis is very important to the hobby. I wonder if there are any vets who are able/willing to help defray the costs in order to help the hobby?


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## Ed

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Just a thought, but is there any reason people are not using real time PCR for testing coccida, instead of microscope using floats/smears? Seems far more accurate.


Probably because the tests haven't been developed as of this time for the species that infect anurans (and there are a lot of species). In the wild, coccidians tend to be fairly species specific, but this doesn't seem to hold in captive collections and because other than compromised animals, it isn't a big deal. 

PCR testing based on the literature is something that is still expanding and even commercially valuable animals are still in development (for example, a pcr test for some of the major coccidian parasites for chickens was only developed in 2009). I suspect that since frogs are a low priority since it isn't really commercially viable, and the fact that outside of compromised frogs it tends to be benign. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

From what Mark as said so far, this is probably the best scenario for people getting frogs that have the greatest chance of doing well. Unlike most other frog imports, the frogs were collected, held in good conditions by WIKIRI, packaged and shipped to Mark where they were held and allowed to acclimate for a decent period of time (and Mark is proposing to expand that period in the future) which is where we should initially see issues with parasites show up. 


Ed


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## Ed

§lipperhead said:


> Causes of death for one keeper might be different from another keeper though. You can't assign a universal diagnosis to all frogs!!


Not unless everyone gets necropsies and shares the results. 

Ed


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## slipperheads

Ed said:


> Not unless everyone gets necropsies and shares the results.
> 
> Ed


My post was in response to the person who suggested everyone pool together money to get a necropsy done on one frog.


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## mydumname

Yes cause apparently knowing one persons issue won't help anyone else.


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## JJuchems

Ed said:


> Jason,
> 
> *The medical literature indicates that it is not aggressive unless the frogs are immunosuppressed.* I directly referenced the literature where it explicitly stated it tends to be benign. It also directly states that coccidia can be seen in the fecals of healthy/asymptomatic frogs.
> 
> While you never explicitly stated your frogs had/have coccidia, you implied that was a potential cause of death.
> 
> And I am going to repeat myself one more time... the only way to determine a frog is negative for a coccidia infection is through tissue examination during a necropsy.
> 
> 
> Ed


Yet, the same text you site states that transit/shipping is a stressor and other hardships that go with shipping (pg 38, While other sources such as Carey 1999 used environmental change as a stressor (which transit is a sever change in environment). With stress, it is a known cause to compromising the immunity of amphibians due to the harsh at times environmental change.

The text you site also states that dendrobatids infected range from mild to severe (pg 444).


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## Blue_Pumilio

I thought I knew a place that did it, guess I gotta double check. Heck, I had a develop a PCR tests for me to screen some animals. A lot has changed since 2009. PCR can be used to look for a whole genre of closely related species, just not species specific. It just depends on the primer being used to ID them. 



Ed said:


> Probably because the tests haven't been developed as of this time for the species that infect anurans (and there are a lot of species). In the wild, coccidians tend to be fairly species specific, but this doesn't seem to hold in captive collections and because other than compromised animals, it isn't a big deal.
> 
> PCR testing based on the literature is something that is still expanding and even commercially valuable animals are still in development (for example, a pcr test for some of the major coccidian parasites for chickens was only developed in 2009). I suspect that since frogs are a low priority since it isn't really commercially viable, and the fact that outside of compromised frogs it tends to be benign.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Ed

Blue_Pumilio said:


> I thought I knew a place that did it, guess I gotta double check. Heck, I had a develop a PCR tests for me to screen some animals. A lot has changed since 2009. PCR can be used to look for a whole genre of closely related species, just not species specific. It just depends on the primer being used to ID them.


Well we would also have to weigh the fact of testing versus the need. Keep in mind that infected frogs remain infected throughout life regardless if they are treated for it or not.. All that treatment really does is bring the infection back under control until the frog's immune system can get a handle on it (or what ever was causing the illness is corrected). Being able to test for it also means that there will be a lot of people treating infected but asymptomatic frogs for no real reason....

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

JJuchems said:


> Yet, the same text you site states that transit/shipping is a stressor and other hardships that go with shipping (pg 38, While other sources such as Carey 1999 used environmental change as a stressor (which transit is a sever change in environment). With stress, it is a known cause to compromising the immunity of amphibians due to the harsh at times environmental change.
> 
> The text you site also states that dendrobatids infected range from mild to severe (pg 444).


Jason,

First off none of that really supports your argument. If we look at the physiological impact of shipping.. basically two weeks post event, that is your clock for immunosuppression due to shipment. Unless there is something in the husbandry, enviroment or something else that continues to stress the frogs, then the stress hormones go back to normal as does immune function. So that means the infection had to start more than 30 days ago in frog number 2 and kill it without demonstrating the usual signs (diarrhea, bloody fecals, rapid weight loss, possible dehydration...). 

Second, if you actually go back and read the literature on coccidia infections in dendrobatids (try backtracking the references) and other anurans, most of the cases are mild (or benign) unless the animal is immunosuppressed. That means there would have been diarrhea, weight loss, possible blood in the fecal.. and so forth. So for this to take 60 days (remember after 14 days frog #2 should have it's immune system getting back to normal from shipping stress) for the end result of the infection to occur without noticible symptoms is a stretch in the argument.

The people you spoke to who are treating the frogs for coccidia, did you ask if they were showing signs of infection or was it detected in thier fecals and the frogs were otherwise asymptomatic? 

Additionally, Mark reports negative fecals for coccidia. If your claim about shipping stress allowing the infection to progress from mild or to severe (death), then Mark should have 
1) see positive fecals
2) symptoms of infection (diarrhea etc)
3) possible deaths 

Death due to immunosuppression from shipping stress which caused coccidia to go crazy and kill the frog 60 days after shipping is a bit of a stretch unless there was something else going on that sustained the immunosuppression..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## thedude

JJuchems said:


> Why can one frog die in transit and the others live? How can one frog develop a bacterial infection in quarantine and the others do fine without treatment? You are neglecting to look at it as an individual basis on a frog level and individual immune systems. These frogs were cupped in singles during shipping and were not introduced together until I did so in their current habitats. It only takes one frog compromised for it to spread to the rest of the tank, thus the loss of two frogs instead of four. But I am only using my frogs as an example.


I'm looking at it as if the frogs in one tank died and the frogs in the other tank didn't, and thinking about the way mine have acted, and I've heard other people's have acted.

Why did they do fine when they were captured and held in Ecuador? Why did they do fine when they were shipped from Ecuador to Ontario? They all came from the same 140 acre forest, and have MOST LIKELY all come into contact with the same pathogens. So what's different?

I'm not saying you did anything wrong or that it wasn't pathogens. I'm just telling you what I think it was based on what I know. Did you get any calling from either tank?


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## JJuchems

Ed,

As I have stated before, I have treated coccida before in Dendrobates. Mine have not shown signs (significant weight loss) and I did not state that as cause of death. When my dwarf cobalts were treated, it isolated to one tank of my frogs. It was a gradual decline taking a few weeks. They were treated and thrived afterwards. I received an email from an individual who said they were treating for it in their Parus for coccida after losing one.

Mine arrived on Sept 12, they have been in my possession for a total of 53 days as of 11/4/12. The recorded death using the date of corpse is 48 days, not including the MIA frog which I am going to assume was a death sooner than that. 

Adam,

While they were in the same environment, you can not neglect the power of the individual. I am not calling Mark a liar or others but that extra step to get them here could have been part of the equation or it could not be. Maybe the noise of my room is to much for them. I don't have an answer to their death. 

I have no calling that I am aware of at this time, but it would be hard to hear it at this time of year as I have several species calling at the moment. 

Here are the two doing well from around 1:45 AM. This was a quick phone picture, I was just trying to get some crickets in a few tanks before bed:


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## JJuchems

Ed,

As I have stated before, I have treated coccida before in Dendrobates. Mine have not shown signs (significant weight loss) and I did not state that as cause of death. When my dwarf cobalts were treated, it isolated to one tank of my frogs. It was a gradual decline taking a few weeks. They were treated and thrived afterwards. I received an email from an individual who said they were treating for it in their Parus for coccida after losing one.

Mine arrived on Sept 12, they have been in my possession for a total of 53 days as of 11/4/12. The recorded death using the date of corpse is 48 days, not including the MIA frog which I am going to assume was a death sooner than that. 

Adam,

While they were in the same environment, you can not neglect the power of the individual. I am not calling Mark a liar or others but that extra step to get them here could have been part of the equation or it could not be. Maybe the noise of my room is to much for them. I don't have an answer to their death. I saw no aggression and no calling from the tank. 
It would be hard to hear it at this time of year as I have several species calling at the moment. 

Here are the two doing well from around 1:45 AM. This was a quick phone picture, I was just trying to get some crickets in a few tanks before bed:


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## markpulawski

Jason are you feeding these frogs crickets? I have had death in Histo's before that though I did nothing to prove it came shortly after cricket feeding, be they too big and exo skeleton contibuted or just some nasties where the crickets were raised. I only use crickets on my day geckos these days, for the above reason do i not feed crickets to frogs any longer and have not for many years.


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## JJuchems

Mark, I do not. I should have clarified that. I was feeding tree frogs last night.


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## curlykid

So did you ever find the other frog in the tank?


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## Huigie

Hi guys, any updates for possible future owners?


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## thedude

Jason, any updates? What happened with the fecals? How are the other 2 frogs?


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## JJuchems

My other two frogs are great! Active and see them often. I have observed no aggression. Their fecals came back fine. 

But if I was doing this again, every week for the first month I will be conducting fecals.


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## Tinctoc

JJuchems said:


> My other two frogs are great! Active and see them often. I have observed no aggression. Their fecals came back fine.
> 
> But if I was doing this again, every week for the first month I will be conducting fecals.


Good to hear!!


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## Dendro Dave

I've never kept any of these, and it will likely be years before I ever do but reading through this thread, disease issues aside I get the "gut feeling" that maybe there is something to keeping them a bit dryer some of the time, or at least with more ventilation then is typical on many people's vivs, then having a rainy season for breeding. I'm basing this on Taron's experiences, many of Ed's comments, especially about evaporative cooling, and on the general temp ranges discussed for these frogs and on the wikir caresheet that contradicts Taron's experiences...

Basically spitting the difference on all these issues to come of with something likely to work in most cases if the frog is otherwise healthy. 

Maybe the issue is when some have been kept in high humidity they didn't have enough ventilation or air circulation within the viv either with an internal fan or external fan, and/or adequately sized ventilation strips. But perhaps some people keeping them drier while not ideal, was the lesser of 2 evils in this case allowing for their survival....I don't know, just throwing it out there.

So basically a bit drier might be better then to humid with crappy circulation and/or ventilation, but humid with great circulation and/or ventilation the overall better way to go.

Also I get the "Gut feeling" these are less tolerant of shipping stress or stress in general and may fair better once we get some f3+ generations. My first darkland male died within 2 weeks of getting him, and he looked perfect, and the next male and the old female continued in that tank for years and started breeding like rabbits when I finally got the snails under control that were eating all their eggs. I'd probably be drowning in darks if I hadn't sold them and some offspring to finance my Fox purchase. It was like..."Oh you've shipped me and I can't handle the stress of this new tank...Good bye cruel world!!!"

Anyways just throwing that all out there/thinking out loud


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## thedude

Dendro Dave said:


> Also I get the "Gut feeling" these are less tolerant of shipping stress or stress in general and may fair better once we get some f3+ generations. My first darkland male died within 2 weeks of getting him, and he looked perfect, and the next male and the old female continued in that tank for years and started breeding like rabbits when I finally got the snails under control that were eating all their eggs. I'd probably be drowning in darks if I hadn't sold them and some offspring to finance my Fox purchase. It was like..."Oh you've shipped me and I can't handle the stress of this new tank...Good bye cruel world!!!"
> 
> Anyways just throwing that all out there/thinking out loud


I don't think they are that sensitive honestly. They had no issues getting them to Mark from Ecuador, and he didn't have any issues getting them out to people here or across the pond.

Mine never even hid from me. They are probably some of the calmest, boldest frogs I've seen. 

In regards to everything else you said, I agree. I think we are going to find with all the Ecuadorian and Colombian Oophaga that they are seasonal breeders.


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## Dendro Dave

thedude said:


> I don't think they are that sensitive honestly. They had no issues getting them to Mark from Ecuador, and he didn't have any issues getting them out to people here or across the pond.
> 
> Mine never even hid from me. They are probably some of the calmest, boldest frogs I've seen.
> 
> In regards to everything else you said, I agree. I think we are going to find with all the Ecuadorian and Colombian Oophaga that they are seasonal breeders.


That is good...sounded like maybe they were having issues similar to the zaparo, but I'm way out of touch  (Hence, not realizing I was responding to a thread from December)


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## JJuchems

JJuchems said:


> My other two frogs are great! Active and see them often. I have observed no aggression. Their fecals came back fine.
> 
> But if I was doing this again, every week for the first month I will be conducting fecals.


Found one calling this morning! The are still doing great.


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