# Mysteriosus' Legality



## Cornish-J

[Please use this thread to discuss the legality of this species]

Thought Id post some new pictures of my mystis now having sourced a female!

Please lets not turn this into a debate on importing etc 

First batch of eggs (female had previously laid before for a different owner) and had at least 7 or 8 tads. Had 5 transported so far to film cannisters and one in a brom i think .. can't quite see but i'm sure he's dropped one in my largest brom ... not bad for a first time dad 


frog2 by .JayD., on Flickr


frog6 by .JayD., on Flickr


DSC_0040 by .JayD., on Flickr


frog7 by .JayD., on Flickr

a cruffs'esque pose for the camera...just realised this the US .. it's a UK dog show lol


frog8 by .JayD., on Flickr


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## FroggyKnight

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

WOW! Amazing frogs!

I hope we can get a reliable U.S. source for these in the future. They are one of the most stunning species in my opinion.


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## LoganR

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

I agree, hopefully they will be legally available in the US one day - but with so few in the wild, sadly, it may never happen. They are stunning frogs.


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## FroggyKnight

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



LoganR said:


> I agree, hopefully they will be legally available in the US one day - but with so few in the wild, sadly, it may never happen. They are stunning frogs.


True.... Conservation should always come before the hobby. Maybe some day the wild populations will stabilize and grow THEN we can get our pretty frogs


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## epiphytes etc.

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Jason Brown had some interesting things to say about these at Microcosm. Apparently, they leave their brom covered cliff faces during the day to forage, then return later. He said he believes that they inhabit this particular niche only because of the loss of more suitable habitat, kinda like being stranded and making due.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Cornish-J said:


> Please lets not turn this into a debate on importing etc


So you're going to post pictures of arguably one of the most controversial *ILLEGALLY* exported frogs, a frog that is nothing short of the poster child for why conservation is needed to protect this hobby from itself, and then ask that it not turn into a debate on that very subject?


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



epiphytes etc. said:


> Jason Brown had some interesting things to say about these at Microcosm. Apparently, they leave their brom covered cliff faces during the day to forage, then return later. He said he believes that they inhabit this particular niche only because of the loss of more suitable habitat, kinda like being stranded and making due.


That was an excellent talk. It's sad that we may never know the actual biology and behavior of this species.


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## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> So you're going to post pictures of arguably one of the most controversial *ILLEGALLY* exported frogs, a frog that is nothing short of the poster child for why conservation is needed to protect this hobby from itself, and then ask that it not turn into a debate on that very subject?


Yes please.

We all know the extremely worrying conservation status of these frogs and we all know these exist in our hobby across the globe so we dont need to go over this yet again. It's all been said a million times before.


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## Manuran

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

The original population rediscovered by Schulte in 1989 was found in a remnant piece of forest in the middle of a cow pasture. The frogs here were found up in trees that were covered with Aechmea nudicaulis. It is an interesting read.

SCHULTE, R.(1990):
Redescubrimiento y redefinición de Dendrobates mysteriosus MYERS 1982 de la Cordillera del Condor.
Boletin de Lima, No. 70, pp. 57 - 68.


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## Dendroguy

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Seeing as these breed like auratus, and in many cases a substitute for auratus as a first frog, could one argue that the captive population is larger than the wild?

D


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Cornish-J said:


> Yes please.
> 
> We all know the extremely worrying conservation status of these frogs and we all know these exist in our hobby across the globe so we dont need to go over this yet again. It's all been said a million times before.


Sorry but no. Exactly the opposite. We do need need to revisit this, in every discussion about these frogs ever. The hobby does need to go over this, a constant refresher and reminder of the pitfalls of illegal smuggling. We shouldn't let this be swept under the rug ever. It may have been brought up a million times before, and should be brought up a million times more. Of course, this is silly, because we seldom discuss mysieriosus here, so the discussions about how they're all illegal are few and far between. All the more reason to capitalize on another opportunity to bring it up.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Dendroguy said:


> Seeing as these breed like auratus, and in many cases a substitute for auratus as a first frog, could one argue that the captive population is larger than the wild?
> 
> D


I don't doubt it. These guys are not hard to find really, actually, they'll find you eventually.


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## Phyllobates

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Nice shots. Love the transporting pic. Are clutches of that size typical?

Chris


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## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Phyllobates said:


> Nice shots. Love the transporting pic. Are clutches of that size typical?
> 
> Chris


I'd love to be able to answer that but these are my first ever mysti eggs/tads so i have no idea if im honest. 

Didn't find any trace of bad/unfertile eggs so there must have been 7+ .. all good!


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## PumilioTurkey

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

watch out for the froglets.


most of my friends lost big amounts of their froglets in the first 1-4 months!


I'd also love to see the darker almost blackish Mysteriosus morph


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## Halter

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



PumilioTurkey said:


> watch out for the froglets.
> 
> 
> most of my friends lost big amounts of their froglets in the first 1-4 months!


I wonder why that is?

Awesome pictures, thanks for sharing.


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## thedude

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Dendroguy said:


> Seeing as these breed like auratus, and in many cases a substitute for auratus as a first frog, could one argue that the captive population is larger than the wild?
> 
> D


Probably, they are very common in Europe and Japan. Whats left of their wild population isn't really under much threat anymore thankfully. No point in destroying a cliff face, nothing else will grow on it humans could use. And no smuggling pressure. So unless chytrid a somehow makes it there, they should be fine in general. 

Nice shots. Love the last one.


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## ecichlid

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Is it legal for captive bred Mysti's to be imported to the U.S.?

What are the rules in the U.K.?


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ecichlid said:


> Is it legal for captive bred Mysti's to be imported to the U.S.?
> 
> What are the rules in the U.K.?


No it isn't legal to import the CB offspring here.

They're technically illegal in the EU as well.


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## dart666

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

So what is the scientific name?


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## Bunsincunsin

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



dart666 said:


> So what is the scientific name?


_Excidobates mysteriosus_


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## Baltimore Bryan

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



dart666 said:


> So what is the scientific name?


Excidobates mysteriosus

Bryan

*Edit*-Looks like Shaun beat me to it


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## markpulawski

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Here is a quote from Mark Pepper from a web site in England...would this be a frog since easy to breed would have been hugely popular...for 12 months while babies are bringing the highest of prices and then slowly fade into a I can get them so I no longer want them frog. I for one find them so unique looking at I don't think that would ever happen but as long as they stay underground and mostly unavailable the mystique and demand will be there, from Mark...

"There are many misconceptions out there about mysteriosus. When first rediscovered it was assumed that there was just one or two small pops around Santa Rosa de la Yunga. However, they are a little more widespread than that, the problem is accessing the cliffs to verify their existence. In some places you can hear them calling faintly from way overhead but good luck getting up to them. I actually think this is one of the species of least concern, despite its small range. All of the scrub forest habitat is essentially gone, but they are quite adept at hanging off the cliffs. No animals will graze on the cliffs, and the only thing that seems to grow on them are orchids and bromeliads. Barring a war with Ecuador leveling those cliffs, I am confident in predicting that mysteriousus will outlast us all.

We received possession in Iquitos in early 2005 of what was left of that smuggled shipment represented by the photo in the Ranitomeya revision. there were some 400 frogs in that shipment which was confiscated in Lima. The frogs were packed one against another in 6 or 8 small tubes hidden below fish bags. half of that shipment died in transit from Iquitos to Lima. Surely 100% mortality would have been realized had it not been stopped in Lima during a very random check.

We could have probably pressed to have the stock regularized into the fold of ZEF, but at the time amongst many other things we had bigger fish to fry and were more concerned with progressing paperwork for additional ranitomeya species and ameerega species. The concern of legalizing everything already in captivity played heavy on our minds, and having seen all those dead ones did nothing to convince us at the time that we needed to commercialize them. The time has now passed. I am pretty sure I do not regret not exporting them or trying to. Don't get me wrong, I love observing/keeping frogs in captivity, that should be obvious but mysteriosus is one of those frogs that seems absolutely magical in its even more magical habitat. Almost a shame I think to place it in a small box when it is perfectly suited for the most rugged windswept cliffs, a completely unique poison frog habitat. "


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## randommind

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

An interesting habitat for sure...


















**pics found via google, not certain on who or how to give proper credit**


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

An interesting habitat indeed. Who knows if they originally existed there or habitat loss pushed them into that niche. 

As was mentioned earlier. Dr. Brown described how the frogs would move down the cliff face and out into cattle pastures each day to forage. He raised some really interesting subjects as far as husbandry and how often many of our frogs occupy many different niches on a daily and seasonal basis.


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## ecichlid

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

*Are the statements below true? I seek to understand.*

1) There is no danger of this species going extinct, despite its small numbers, due to the uniqueness of its final habitat. 

2) The person who owns these frogs lives in the U.K., where the frog is illegal, but since the law is not being enforced, he is able to go public about his ownership.


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## markpulawski

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



randommind said:


> An interesting habitat for sure...
> 
> View attachment 81066
> 
> 
> View attachment 81074
> 
> 
> 
> **pics found via google, not certain on who or how to give proper credit**


Both shots from inside a V-Scape viv, tailored to the outdoorsman in all of us


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ecichlid said:


> *Are the statements below true? I seek to understand.*
> 
> 1) There is no danger of this species going extinct, despite its small numbers, due to the uniqueness of its final habitat.


No danger? Maybe a reduced risk, but there is still a danger.



> 2) The person who owns these frogs lives in the U.K., where the frog is illegal, but since the law is not being enforced, he is able to go public about his ownership.


Basically yes. EU members have been sharing pics of these guys for quite some time. They're openly traded at shows etc. 

If I remember correctly the mysteriosus in the EU were smuggled in on forged Libyan cites docs.


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## Sammie

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ecichlid said:


> *Are the statements below true? I seek to understand.*
> 
> 1) There is no danger of this species going extinct, despite its small numbers, due to the uniqueness of its final habitat.
> *
> 2) The person who owns these frogs lives in the U.K., where the frog is illegal, but since the law is not being enforced, he is able to go public about his ownership*.


I don't know about the UK, but here it's only the actual animals that were smuggled that's illegal, once they breed the offspring is legal.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Sammie said:


> I don't know about the UK, but here it's only the actual animals that were smuggled that's illegal, once they breed the offspring is legal.


Can you provide a source for that information?


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## oldlady25715

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

The other posters are correct that the legality issues are always noted along with neat pics of the frogs. I think in past discussions its been noted that these are one of those never exported legally once frogs, so therefore are illegal in that sense and then also recognized as being illegal to possess in many countries that have them.

As Mark P quoted Mark P saying the decision to bring frogs in legally where there is a number of illegal lines already established weighted heavily on him because as soon as they arrive all of the illegal lines become UE lines. He mentioned Ranitomeya but I have always been told this about the Sylvaticas in day-to-day conversations, perhaps because they sell for more.


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## frogparty

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

That habitat is amazing. I'd love to see a big zoo exhibit done to replicate it. Finally a dart frog tank where a rock wall is the most appropriate background!


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## Sammie

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Can you provide a source for that information?


No, admittedly it's hearsay. 
Perhaps I shouldn't have stated it so definitely.

I will try to look it up when I have the time, however any source I might find will likely be in swedish


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Sammie said:


> No, admittedly it's hearsay.
> Perhaps I shouldn't have stated it so definitely.
> 
> I will try to look it up when I have the time, however any source I might find will likely be in swedish


No it's fine. It's what I've heard as well. I'd just like to find something concrete to back that up. Or debunk it. Either way, it seems hobbyists are free to own these frogs in the EU.


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## botanyboy03

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Pretty frogs nonetheless. I just saw a video of mysteriosus on youtube the other day. Yours?

Zac


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## ecichlid

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



oldlady25715 said:


> I think in past discussions its been noted that these are one of those never exported legally once frogs, so therefore are illegal in that sense and then also recognized as being illegal to possess in many countries that have them.


 Just because a frog is illegal to import, does not mean it is illegal to own. 

This frog is listed under Appedix II of CITES which means: *No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires)*. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> No it's fine. It's what I've heard as well. I'd just like to find something concrete to back that up. Or debunk it. Either way, it seems hobbyists are free to own these frogs in the EU.


 Not exactly. I did read an article in Dutch in which a hobbyist from the Netherlands was fined heavily for owning a mysteriosus. That being said it also seems that other EU countries either allow possession of mysteriosus or at least don't enforce EU agreements in regards to captive bred mysteriosus.

Based on the facts as I now know them, I personally cannot cast any negative judgement on this fellow frogger from the UK. After all, these are captive bred frogs.

Nice frogs and pictures *Cornish-J*!


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ecichlid said:


> Just because a frog is illegal to import, does not mean it is illegal to own.
> 
> This frog is listed under Appedix II of CITES which means: *No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires)*.


Try convincing USF&W of that. E. mysteriosus has never been legally exported, ever. Period. As such, USF&W views their ownership in the US at least as a crime.

And while no Import permit may be required, Peru does require an export permit, none has ever been issued. All Mystis are from illegal origins.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ecichlid said:


> Based on the facts as I now know them, I personally cannot cast any negative judgement on this fellow frogger from the UK. After all, these are captive bred frogs.


I can. European demand for smuggled frogs exacerbated the decline of this species that was already hit hard by by habitat loss. 

Furthermore, because smuggled frogs are so prevelant, the people with the power, knowledge, connections, etc. to work for the legal export of this frog in the future have stated that isn't going to happen. So thanks to euro Frogger greed, pretty much anyone else who isn't willing to set aside the moral debate and the legal risk won't ever get to enjoy these frogs.


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## oldlady25715

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

I never had the term "import" in my post, dude.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

A good explanation by someone people are more likely to believe than me:



Ed said:


> The frogs are illegal in the USA because Peru never allowed their export. This then places the frogs currently in the USA as violations of the LACY act.
> If frogs are ever imported legally from Peru with the correct paperwork, those frogs and thier offspring will then be legal in the USA. This could potentially legalize all of the illegal ones in the USA because people could claim they are descendents of the imported frogs (or are the imported frogs themselves).
> 
> Ed


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

A good read, if not a bit dated on smuggling and it's pitfalls:

http://www.berlinfrogs.de/tl_files/berlinfrogs/Berichte/Froschschmuggel.pdf


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## hypostatic

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



markpulawski said:


> "There are many misconceptions out there about mysteriosus. When first rediscovered it was assumed that there was just one or two small pops around Santa Rosa de la Yunga. However, they are a little more widespread than that, the problem is accessing the cliffs to verify their existence. In some places you can hear them calling faintly from way overhead but good luck getting up to them. I actually think this is one of the species of least concern, despite its small range. All of the scrub forest habitat is essentially gone, but they are quite adept at hanging off the cliffs. No animals will graze on the cliffs, and the only thing that seems to grow on them are orchids and bromeliads. Barring a war with Ecuador leveling those cliffs, I am confident in predicting that mysteriousus will outlast us all.


Well, most of the world's species in general are in danger due to climate change, correct? It seems more and more that a species can be here today, and gone tomorrow...


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## frogparty

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

And yet- we see pics of vanzos every day and no one says a thing...... People jump at the chance to swoop up casita whenever they get the chance, and red head histos go for $500 a pop the minute they go up for sale. 

Double standards everywhere


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## mydumname

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Casita???
.....


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



mydumname said:


> Casita???
> .....


Castonicus I think


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## Scott

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

A few posts removed here.

Stick to facts, don't get personal, dumb graphics will get your an infraction - pronto.

s


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## hypostatic

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



mydumname said:


> Casita???
> .....


I think its a typo for Adelphobates castaneoticus, aka "castis"


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Scott said:


> A few posts removed here.
> 
> Stick to facts, don't get personal, dumb graphics will get your an infraction - pronto.
> 
> s


Thanks you for helping keep things civil.


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## mydumname

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Ahh I remember when I had those. Everyone I know who has them now doesn't seem to have breeding anymore.


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## frogparty

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Yeah, the phone won't let me type casti's without autocorrect


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## ecichlid

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Thanks you for helping keep things civil.


 Agreed.


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## ecichlid

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

According to the ICUN Red List, Epipedobates tricolor (Epipedobates tricolor) is just as endangered as Excidobates mysteriosus (Excidobates mysteriosus (Marañón Poison Frog)). I would guess that some would argue that tricolor is ok to keep because it was originally exported legally and mysteriosus is not because it was never exported legally. Is that right? Do we know that is the case for each of these?

Then again, maybe Epipedobates tricolor falls under the same tent as Excidobates mysteriosus. ZooKeeperDoug's reference to this document http://www.berlinfrogs.de/tl_files/berlinfrogs/Berichte/Froschschmuggel.pdf says *"The following frogs have shown up in the hobby lately and are of ILLEGAL ORIGIN. These species and morphs should NOT be purchased!"* It then specifically lists Epipedobates as a whole.


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## carola1155

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



frogparty said:


> And yet- we see pics of vanzos every day and no one says a thing...... People jump at the chance to swoop up casita whenever they get the chance, and red head histos go for $500 a pop the minute they go up for sale.
> 
> Double standards everywhere


Isn't there a bit of a difference here because there are legally imported vanzos? From what I understand the original stock was a confiscated smuggled shipment and we could go on for days about the implications of that... but vanzos have legal paperwork and mystis don't. 

I will agree it is odd that the powers that be made a decision to allow vanzo offspring to be legal vs deeming all mystis illegal (though there may be more to this than I know). However, I don't necessarily see how it is a double standard. It's following the law vs not following the law.


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## carola1155

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

also, just want to clarify that I am not condoning smuggling in any way shape or form. I actually found this statement in that link from doug and ecichlid extremely on point. 



> No one can deny the clandestine origins of many of the now common frogs in the hobby, whose origins were smuggled animals. However, our hobby does not have to continue this way. Never in the history of the poison frog hobby have greater opportunities been available to the hobbyist to purchase a wide variety of sustainably produced frogs, which come with the additional benefit that portions of proceeds go to protect the very habitat these frogs come from. In many cases, supporting these projects aids the economies of impoverished local communities by providing them a sustainable source of income and employment opportunities derived from the forest, rather than from unsustainable exploitation.


and while I will say that I totally respect the writers of that paper I don't really agree with this statement about Vanzolinii:


> A large smuggled shipment was confiscated and given to H. Divossen, which have now been made legal in certain countries in Europe if they can be traced back to that line. However, due to the fact that these frogs were originally smuggled, we cannot
> condone the purchase of any D. vanzolinii. Furthermore, the majority of these frogs in the hobby are not of the Divossen line, and hence, completely illegal.


Was it a mistake that any of these frogs were allowed to be legal? maybe. It would be much clearer if they were kept straight up illegal like castis. But they aren't. I do think that this is more reason to keep castis and mystis illegal. Now this is just my opinion here, but I don't think refusing to purchase the frogs that are now in the hobby really does anything. The damage is done. However, I do hope that the work of those guys have done since that paper was written and the above mentioned sustainably produced frogs means we will never have an issue like this to tackle again... but I just don't see how going back on what has already happened gets us anywhere.


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## frogparty

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

As far as I know, the only legal vanzolinii imported are through UE, and no one in the USA has that line. All vanzos from "Europe" should be considered of dubious origin. 

So how is this a double standard?


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## carola1155

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

I'm talking about it strictly from a legality standpoint. The fact is that Adam had paperwork for frogs that he obtained from Europe. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/32871-ranitomeya-vanzolinii-2.html

Is it a big grey area? absolutely. That being said... some vanzos are legal and no mystis/castis are. That's why I don't see it as a double standard.


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## frogparty

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

I see. So it looks like maybe most of the vanzos in the states are legit, if people like Darren and Phil Tan and Adam Butt acquired legal animals from that specific stock.


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## carola1155

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



frogparty said:


> I see. So it looks like maybe most of the vanzos in the states are legit, if people like Darren and Phil Tan and Adam Butt acquired legal animals from that specific stock.


yea... but it is a bit of a mess when you really boil it all down. Lots of grey area. That's why I think it is best that mystis and castis just stay illlegal. I feel like I remember either reading somewhere or talking to someone at one of the local meets about some people having stock of some of those animals basically just hoping for the day they are made available legally so they can "launder" and unload them. Better to not reward those people at this point and keep them in the shadows.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ecichlid said:


> According to the ICUN Red List, Epipedobates tricolor (Epipedobates tricolor) is just as endangered as Excidobates mysteriosus (Excidobates mysteriosus (Marañón Poison Frog)). I would guess that some would argue that tricolor is ok to keep because it was originally exported legally and mysteriosus is not because it was never exported legally. Is that right? Do we know that is the case for each of these?


Yes, we do know that is the case for both species. That's the crucial defining issue, *LEGAL EXPORTATION*.



> Then again, maybe Epipedobates tricolor falls under the same tent as Excidobates mysteriosus. ZooKeeperDoug's reference to this document http://www.berlinfrogs.de/tl_files/berlinfrogs/Berichte/Froschschmuggel.pdf says *"The following frogs have shown up in the hobby lately and are of ILLEGAL ORIGIN. These species and morphs should NOT be purchased!"* It then specifically lists Epipedobates as a whole.


Careful when putting words in other people's mouths when making your argument. I shared that as a reference to the pitfalls of smuggling AND pointed out that it is dated. Some of the information on what species are and are not legal is not accurate today. That article was published in leaf Litter magazine in 2007? Many species listed are now legal, in point of fact, thanks to the hard work and dedication of the primary author, Mark Pepper. One must consider the age of the document and relevant changes in the hobby and make an educated decision based on current information as to which species are and are not legal. I was not attempting even for a moment for this article to be interpreted as an accurate guide as to the legality of species, this is why I pointed out that it is dated material. What is relevant information that is still relevant today is the core problems presented by smuggling and that us what I intended for readers to take away from reading it.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



frogparty said:


> As far as I know, the only legal vanzolinii imported are through UE, and no one in the USA has that line. All vanzos from "Europe" should be considered of dubious origin.
> 
> So how is this a double standard?


Actually, Understory Enterprises has begun selling R. vanzolini again. I had planned to purchase a trio, but real life financial situations prevented me from doing so for at least the Novemeber shipment. I do plan to acquire some from them, if available, in the near future.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



carola1155 said:


> yea... but it is a bit of a mess when you really boil it all down. Lots of grey area. That's why I think it is best that mystis and castis just stay illlegal. I feel like I remember either reading somewhere or talking to someone at one of the local meets about some people having stock of some of those animals basically just hoping for the day they are made available legally so they can "launder" and unload them. Better to not reward those people at this point and keep them in the shadows.


That's exactly the reason I was led to believe anyway, why certain people have not worked to get legally imported Mystis.


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## rigel10

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

The paper is posted in 2007 so it is pretty old, as evidenced by, inter alia, the nomenclature of the species that we know is now different for many frogs. In addition, it says: "dendrobates.org unofficial blacklist."
That said, I agree with ZookeeperDoug except for the fact that I would not blame the unsuspecting buyer, if such it is. Even here in Italy there are those who have mysteriosus, but I know that at the time of purchase they did not know they were illegal frogs. It is true that in Italy we say: "The law does not admit ignorance," but it's all the fault of those who sell them, knowing that they are illegal. This is my opinion. obviously.
As for the fact that frogs born from illegal frogs are legal, it seems a nonsense. Also I ask references of law in this regard.
I conclude by returning to the last question of Doug: why certain people have not worked to get legally imported Mystis?


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

wow .. knew i shouldn't have posted these on a US forum!

Yes we all know these frogs are from illegally exported lines, yes i'm sure smuggling played some part in rendering these frogs critically endangered and yes i own these frogs.
However, to clarify, my frogs are NOT WC, smuggling of these was an issue a long time before i had any interest in dart frogs and here in the UK you will find these frogs for sale at most shows, any decent exotic pet stores and some Zoos.

Who knows, one day these captive bred frogs might help to repopulate the wild numbers if numbers continue to fall. However i hope this doesn't happen now some of their habitat has been purchased and protected, hopefully their numbers will grow and they will spread to other locations in Peru.

I think we can stop hammering this subject now..


----------



## ecichlid

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Careful when putting words in other people's mouths when making your argument.


 Referring to a reference that you posted is not putting words in anyone's mouth. Please don't offer me any of your unsolicited advice.

It seems like the reason this frog is frowned upon by American hobbyists is not because we have a better moral compass, but merely because we were not exposed to this frog as a social norm when we entered the hobby like the UK hobbyists were. I'm certain that if the shoe was on the other foot, the roles would be reversed. I think for any American hobbyist to cast judgement on the OP is no less ignorant than the UK hobbyist who made the purchase in the first place.


----------



## frogparty

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

If I had legal access to this species... I would gladly keep it 
I will not risk legality here in the USA to keep it

No disrespect to the OP and his beautiful frogs! Were I in his shoes, I would keep them as well. 
As previously mentioned by another poster, i too prefer the near black ones


----------



## rigel10

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Cornish-J said:


> wow .. knew i shouldn't have posted these on a US forum!
> 
> Yes we all know these frogs are from illegally exported lines, yes i'm sure smuggling played some part in rendering these frogs critically endangered and yes i own these frogs.
> However, to clarify, my frogs are NOT WC, smuggling of these was an issue a long time before i had any interest in dart frogs and here in the UK you will find these frogs for sale at most shows, any decent exotic pet stores and some Zoos.
> 
> Who knows, one day these captive bred frogs might help to repopulate the wild numbers if numbers continue to fall. However i hope this doesn't happen now some of their habitat has been purchased and protected, hopefully their numbers will grow and they will spread to other locations in Peru.
> 
> I think we can stop hammering this subject now..


I do not blame you for your beautiful frogs. Rather, I blame whoever you sold them, knowing that they are illegal. It is your turn, according to the laws of your country, you risk fines or confiscations.
It is not because this is an American forum or not, I am European as you and I know that here, in Europe, it is different in that there are also website that openly sell these frogs. But there may be risks in keeping illegal species. And it is right that you know.
Just this.
Now this is the question: there are frogs illegally imported and these frogs are breeding well. What to do? In the paper cited above also some imitator and epips were illegal, but now they no longer are. We must find a solution.


----------



## markpulawski

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

I too would love to keep this species some day, would I hunt them down to do so, no as I understand there a quite a few here in the US already. I remember complaining to TWI when they first started up about how they could espouse conservation and have a board member who owned them, so this debate is actually quite dated.
As for Vanzo's, yes the Divossen line has been out there for many years but not until 1000's were smuggled out of Peru did suddenly 100's show up for export to the US over the next many months.....all claiming Divossen lineage. UE has exported what I thought were the 3 or 4 to Gary, good to know they have had success in breeding them again.
This debate could rage for years, do I buy offspring from frogs I knew were originally smuggled, if legal offspring were readily and easily available I would say no but if not...hmm?
How about this one, most have bought and kept Terribilis over the past 10 years or so, all from illegal smuggled origin, now legal exports are around the corner and they are struggling to sell them. 
Mysteriousis is a special frog, many of those reasons Mark pointed out and the fact it disappeared for 70 or 80 years before it was rediscovered also adds to the mystique. It's a personal choice, one I would not judge as I have been on both sides of the fence. I like these but I am really happy they are easy to breed, like terribilis for that reason someone that wants them can pay $50 to get one CB from someone local in the UK, if they were not easy that same person may be offering $500 to acquire another WC animal smuggled in to fulfill the demand.


----------



## DrNick

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Personally I do not see this as a legal argument - I think we have established over the (many...) years that the laws within the EU and member states are at best ambiguous. Enforcement of those that exist, even more so.

Yes, these frogs were illegally exported. But that does not automatically make it a prosecutable offense in Europe to keep captive bred individuals or sell their offspring (as far as I can tell from considerable time spent searching). The likelihood of a case being brought against a private individual in these circumstances is vanishingly small. That is simply a fact.

You also need to understand the difference in context between the US, where legal frogs with paperwork seem to be reasonably straightforward to acquire, and the EU where this is certainly not the case. I'm not suggesting that this is a good situation, or acceptable, just that it is the case. In such murky waters as the European dartfrog hobby, is buying an E. mysteriosus that is from smuggled origins any worse than buying a tinc or terrib that also may well be? Are we balancing probabilities here? I would say that's splitting hairs.... Anything that does not come to me in a sealed box from e.g. Understory goes in the same category as far as I am concerned. There is simply not enough information available to argue otherwise.

What we have is a moral question, and as has been mentioned I suspect that the moral high ground occupied my many in the US hobby would be quickly abandoned if these frogs became widely available to them.

Ideally these frogs would not have been smuggled out, but they have been. Given that they are widely available and breed like rabbits, there is clearly no existing and probably no future demand for more smuggled individuals. If all of the mysties in the hobby suddenly disappeared, or if one could be prosecuted for owning them, that demand would rekindle overnight. Where does that leave us in the morality debate?

We do not live in an idealised black and white world. We have to play the hand we are dealt and, for me, maintaining these frogs in the hobby does not condone or promote smuggling. All that it does is remind us that smuggling occurs and protects this one species from future smuggling attempts. Chastising hobbyists would seem to be a pretty futile way to limit future smuggling events IMO....

The question is, what would our response be if a new, clearly smuggled species (e.g. captivus) appeared in the hobby. Hopefully, with our increased awareness, the uptake would be significantly less than when mysteriosus appeared. One can hope....

Nice pics by the way!!!

Nick


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



rigel10 said:


> I do not blame you for your beautiful frogs. Rather, I blame whoever you sold them, knowing that they are illegal. It is your turn, according to the laws of your country, you risk fines or confiscations.
> It is not because this is an American forum or not, I am European as you and I know that here, in Europe, it is different in that there are also website that openly sell these frogs. But there may be risks in keeping illegal species. And it is right that you know.
> Just this.
> Now this is the question: there are frogs illegally imported and these frogs are breeding well. What to do? In the paper cited above also some imitator and epips were illegal, but now they no longer are. We must find a solution.


Cmon, you can't honestly believe the government has nothing better to do than go around collecting frogs from peoples homes that were illegally exported 10-15 years ago .. i think with the world economy my frogs are safe for the minute....

Over here in the UK we have bigger fish to fry with regards to animals/pets, status dogs as an example.

What's been done is done, i can't go back and undo that, all i can do is offer these frogs the best possible life.
Or would you prefer they rotted in an evidence locker somewhere?


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Well articulated Nick, I agree entirely.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



rigel10 said:


> I conclude by returning to the last question of Doug: why certain people have not worked to get legally imported Mystis?


For a number of reasons.

They believe it would lead to a legitimization of all the existing smuggled and illegal frogs already here.

The conservation payback is low. Why put forth the effort to breed and sell these frogs legally when the smuggled frogs will quickly flood the market? Better to spend the time and effort on species not already illegal entrenched in the hobby.


----------



## rigel10

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Maybe I have not explained well. 
I do not blame you for having frogs that are illegal: I have friends who have the same frogs and mystis were offered to me. I did not know at the time that they were illegal (and I have not taken them because I prefer pums and thumbs).
Your government maybe not, but mine is as good as should bother you. (For example, I'm waiting for the 3 PM to go to the bank to pay 3 Euros in taxes for a tax rate increase of about 226.71 Euros - paid two weeks ago).
We must find a solution. That's it. 
Sure frogs "smuggled" can not be thrown away. Indeed, I'm sure that reproduction of illegal frogs, as Mystis, and presence of new CB frogs in the hobby (at good prices) would reduce smuggling. 
Legalizing the fact? I do not know how, but also the Varadero or epips were illegal long ago and now they no longer are.
Easy solution mine, but maybe we should do the same with the mystis. 
But who makes decisions?


----------



## rigel10

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Sorry Doug: you posted while I was writing, so I did not read your post. 
As I said above I'm going out, but what to do with CB frogs that are born from smuggled frogs?


----------



## mydumname

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> For a number of reasons.
> 
> They believe it would lead to a legitimization of all the existing smuggled and illegal frogs already here.
> 
> The conservation payback is low. Why put forth the effort to breed and sell these frogs legally when the smuggled frogs will quickly flood the market? Better to spend the time and effort on species not already illegal entrenched in the hobby.



Or because this is the us and the many innocent suffer because of what a few chose to do. Too easy to come up with examples of this.....but anyway.....

So you mentioned veradero were illegal....if this is so, how come legal ones of these were brought in but they don't want to do the same with mysteriosis? What is the reason that doesn't make this a contradiction? Meaning why ok for one but not the other?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ecichlid said:


> Referring to a reference that you posted is not putting words in anyone's mouth. Please don't offer me any of your unsolicited advice.


Its actually exactly what you did.



> I would guess that some would argue that tricolor is ok to keep because it was originally exported legally and mysteriosus is not because it was never exported legally. Is that right? Do we know that is the case for each of these?


Its a straw man, something not normally worth responding to, but I choose to address because it was relevant to the discussion despite not being an arguement anyone other than you had made for others.




> It seems like the reason this frog is frowned upon by American hobbyists is not because we have a better moral compass, but merely because we were not exposed to this frog as a social norm when we entered the hobby like the UK hobbyists were.


No it's frowned upon here because it is outright illegal.



> I'm certain that if the shoe was on the other foot, the roles would be reversed. I think for any American hobbyist to cast judgement on the OP is no less ignorant than the UK hobbyist who made the purchase in the first place.


You're obviously trying to continue to insult and bait me, so I'll try to address this as professionally as possible, despite your insistence on being petty and insulting. It doesn't arise, as you suggest, from ignorance at all. To claim such, you're implying I'm uninformed, which is not the case. It's simply a difference of opinion. Furthermore, the OP has all but admitted to being aware of the dubious origins of the frogs.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



mydumname said:


> So you mentioned veradero were illegal....if this is so, how come legal ones of these were brought in but they don't want to do the same with mysteriosis? What is the reason that doesn't make this a contradiction? Meaning why ok for one but not the other?


I don't think I ever mentioned varadero being illegal?

But a very good question. But you're asking the wrong guy. Unfortunately I have never had the chance to sit down with the man, but I'd like to ask him someday. I know that there are those that have discussed it at length though who could probably shed more light on why the decision was made to import other species that have also been smuggled.

I don't really see it as being an issue of being ok or not though. It's a choice they made.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



rigel10 said:


> Sorry Doug: you posted while I was writing, so I did not read your post.
> As I said above I'm going out, but what to do with CB frogs that are born from smuggled frogs?


I don't honestly have a good answer nor have I ever seen a good suggestion for that. There really is no good solution.

If we're to say ok, CB offspring of smuggled frogs are ok, this indirectly promotes smuggling, because smugglers will then have an avenue. You're essentially presenting them an opportunity and convenient legal "out" in the future. Assuming they get the frogs breeding, if those CB offspring are then legal, you've provided an incentive to smuggle new species and given them plausible deniability for smuggled animals. Once legal animals of smuggled origin exist, anyone can claim further smuggled animals are CB and good luck proving they are not.


----------



## jkooiman

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



mydumname said:


> Or because this is the us and the many innocent suffer because of what a few chose to do. Too easy to come up with examples of this.....but anyway.....
> 
> So you mentioned veradero were illegal....if this is so, how come legal ones of these were brought in but they don't want to do the same with mysteriosis? What is the reason that doesn't make this a contradiction? Meaning why ok for one but not the other?


Another case of this is azureus if I'm not mistaken. Certainly not a species you see a lot of controversy/finger pointing/self-flagellation over. JVK


----------



## mydumname

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Sorry Doug didn't mean to say you meaning you. 

And I guess not meaning ok legally but why was the one ok for them to bring but not the other....in their minds. Be curious to hear what the thought process on that was and why they are different.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



rigel10 said:


> Legalizing the fact? I do not know how, but also the Varadero or epips were illegal long ago and now they no longer are.


In the case of Varadero, epi, and other formerly illegal frogs, I don't know about Europe, but in the US, the legally imported lines, UE, are more desirable and the smuggled lines have mostly disappeared, with the much more rare offering of other lines.

I suspect this is what we will see with vanzolini, now that UE is having good luck with them.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



mydumname said:


> Sorry Doug didn't mean to say you meaning you.
> 
> And I guess not meaning ok legally but why was the one ok for them to bring but not the other....in their minds. Be curious to hear what the thought process on that was and why they are different.


No worries.

And yeah, me too.

I have my suspicions, not dubious, but in fairness and respect to the person(s) who ultimately made that choice, I won't attempt to put words in their mouth.


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Cornish-J said:


> I think we can stop hammering this subject now..



obviously not!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Cornish-J said:


> Who knows, one day these captive bred frogs might help to repopulate the wild numbers if numbers continue to fall.


Wishful thinking, but as many have pointed out many times, this will Never happen. Were fooling ourselves sometimes when we fancy ourselves conservationists, but the reality is the governments of the world and scientific entities, etc are not going to call upon a bunch of hamfisted hobbyists to repatriate extirpated populations. We simply don't follow the proper guidelines, quarantine, breeding procedures, nor document anything enough that they'd ever feel comfortable doing so. We've got to stop telling ourselves this. The only people who are going to do this are organizations that from legitimate amphibian ark type facilities.



> I think we can stop hammering this subject now..


Unlikely.


----------



## markpulawski

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I don't honestly have a good answer nor have I ever seen a good suggestion for that. There really is no good solution.
> 
> If we're to say ok, CB offspring of smuggled frogs are ok, this indirectly promotes smuggling, because smugglers will then have an avenue. You're essentially presenting them an opportunity and convenient legal "out" in the future. Assuming they get the frogs breeding, if those CB offspring are then legal, you've provided an incentive to smuggle new species and given them plausible deniability for smuggled animals. Once legal animals of smuggled origin exist, anyone can claim further smuggled animals are CB and good luck proving they are not.


Excellent points Doug, and it really was too bad to see much of what UE was going to bring as new to the hobby show up as CB animals from Europe before they were ever exported to Europe. The difference in so many of these species/morphs UE had already set aside and was working on the offering and it seemed so much of these exciting (what once was new) species were targeted by those in Europe to get to the market while prices were still at a premium before Understory released them.
There will never be a good or right or wrong answer definitively as to what to do with CB animals from known smuggled animals. If you destroy them, more demand for smuggling if you let them go it legitimizes them.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



markpulawski said:


> Excellent points Doug, and it really was too bad to see much of what UE was going to bring as new to the hobby show up as CB animals from Europe before they were ever exported to Europe. The difference in so many of these species/morphs UE had already set aside and was working on the offering and it seemed so much of these exciting (what once was new) species were targeted by those in Europe to get to the market while prices were still at a premium before Understory released them.
> There will never be a good or right or wrong answer definitively as to what to do with CB animals from known smuggled animals. If you destroy them, more demand for smuggling if you let them go it legitimizes them.


Ughhhhhh, how did I forget about that aspect. Damn posting early before I've had enough coffee. Thanks for bringing this up. It's very important. Sadly I've even seen/heard rumors about this happening with the frogs Tesoros wants to export.


----------



## markpulawski

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

I heard the same, black foot Terribilis came in though our good friend Brad Lucas early this year, along with some born in captivity Histrionicus.....born in captivity mind you , perhaps in a manger they were bor..ned.


----------



## FrogNick

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Mysites are quite common among UK Zoos as well, we all know the illegal history of the frogs but there's no threat from this type of activity to them any more wish this site stop ranting on about legality each time someone shares some pics!


----------



## DrNick

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

"Sadly I've even seen/heard rumors about this happening with the frogs Tesoros wants to export. "

Like the glut of Colombian auratus that appeared throughout Europe just prior to the Tesoros exports, you mean?! Sigh...... I think this can comfortably be elevated beyond rumour status.


----------



## carola1155

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> In the case of Varadero, epi, and other formerly illegal frogs, I don't know about Europe, but in the US, the legally imported lines, UE, are more desirable and the smuggled lines have mostly disappeared, with the much more rare offering of other lines.


UE frogs may be more desirable than EU frogs.... But unfortunately all it takes is for a seller to switch two letters around and they end up selling their frogs as UE. I'd bet there are a lot of frogs out there changing hands as UE that are actually descendants from smuggled EU stock. It kinda becomes a morality issue... If someone was ok with keeping a clearly smuggled frog what's to say they aren't ok with switching two letters to sell it?


----------



## easternversant

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



rigel10 said:


> I conclude by returning to the last question of Doug: why certain people have not worked to get legally imported Mystis?





ZookeeperDoug said:


> I don't think I ever mentioned varadero being illegal?
> 
> But a very good question. But you're asking the wrong guy. Unfortunately I have never had the chance to sit down with the man, but I'd like to ask him someday. I know that there are those that have discussed it at length though who could probably shed more light on why the decision was made to import other species that have also been smuggled.
> 
> I don't really see it as being an issue of being ok or not though. It's a choice they made.


I haven't reread that, but I believe the Varadero they were referring to is the fantastica there. As soon as the scientific community learned of the Varadero population they were working with Mark to get the frogs into the hobby. As many of you are aware, imitator is fairly easy to breed and can produce a lot of frogs in a short time. This is why they were available from UE in a quick enough fashion to relieve the pressure for smuggled animals.

Fantastica on the other hand is a b***h to collect and can be more problematic to breed. As a result, they weren't available early enough before the market was flooded with smuggled animals (similar to how captivus was on the market in Europe almost immediately after being rediscovered by Brown and Twomey et al.). I assume Mark just cut his losses at this point (or maybe just couldn't produce enough animals to make available). But who knows, maybe one day he will offer them. The Varadero fants are one of the top 2 coolest morphs of fantastica and it would be nice to see them around legally.

I think in large part UE never worked with mysteriosus due to Peru's laws (but don't take this as Gospel). There have been some new developments which may provide hope though. Still, it is ultimately up to Mark and the Peruvian government whether these legally come in. I, for one, would love that. If I got wind Mark was working with them, I would immediately start saving for them. They are one of the all-time coolest animals ever. Hell, I'd take some time and go collect some breeding stock for him! Mark, if you are reading this you can take me up on this offer .

Edit: And (the other) Mark P beat me to some of these points. Thats what I get for writing a long post.


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



FrogNick said:


> Mysites are quite common among UK Zoos as well, we all know the illegal history of the frogs but there's no threat from this type of activity to them any more wish this site stop ranting on about legality each time someone shares some pics!


Agreed. 

This is a thread for photos .. not general discussion on importing etc ... just read the second line on my original post!

enjoy the photos and stop stressing about something that is beyond our control and frankly no longer relevant anymore.

I specifically posted these photos for you guys as i know they aren't very common in the states and thought you might like to see them, in future i dont think i'll bother lol!


----------



## markpulawski

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Hey Cornish J (by the way I have heard of a Cornish R and Cornish H but never a Cornish J), great photo's and I am very happy to see you doing well with them but these will always stimulate interesting debate which is good for our hobby as long as stays respectful. Try not to be bummed and post more photo's. I sure hope Easternversant is correct and the winds of change may bring about availability with this species, I too have always admired it since seeing the first photo's (who doesn't like a polka dot frog?). 
BTW how are you going to rear the tads? I have also heard from a guy in the Netherlands that allowing the young to over eat will bring about their demise...have you heard anything like that?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



DrNick said:


> "Sadly I've even seen/heard rumors about this happening with the frogs Tesoros wants to export. "
> 
> Like the glut of Colombian auratus that appeared throughout Europe just prior to the Tesoros exports, you mean?! Sigh...... I think this can comfortably be elevated beyond rumour status.


Yes, exactly. As well as some people in the US talking about being able to bring in the terribilis.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



FrogNick said:


> Mysites are quite common among UK Zoos as well, we all know the illegal history of the frogs but there's no threat from this type of activity to them any more wish this site stop ranting on about legality each time someone shares some pics!


You can't possibly make an informed statement about their being no threat to them anymore. It has been consistently proven that despite captive breeding, animals continue to be smuggled. 

I'm sorry you don't like this being brought up each time these frogs are shared, but that isn't going to stop it. No one is ranting, were having a good honest healthy discussion about the legality issues and it is something that should and will be addressed each and every time these frogs are brought up.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Cornish-J said:


> Agreed.
> 
> This is a thread for photos .. not general discussion on importing etc ... just read the second line on my original post!
> 
> enjoy the photos and stop stressing about something that is beyond our control and frankly no longer relevant anymore.
> 
> I specifically posted these photos for you guys as i know they aren't very common in the states and thought you might like to see them, in future i dont think i'll bother lol!


Actually we are free to take threads where we see fit and discuss them as long as they remain on subject. You don't get to dictate what others decide to talk about on the internet. This is an important and relevant aspect to this species as it relates to this hobby. Just like we have to live with these illegal frogs being available and there is nothing we can do about it, so do those who own them have to deal with their dubious nature.

No one is stressing btw, well at least I'm not. I'm rather enjoying talking about the issue.


----------



## GRIMM

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Wow, you guys are nuts. I definitely wont be posting pictures of the Panamanian Golden's I just picked up. Sheeesh!

Nice shots anyways of a beautiful frog. It is tough to get good transport pics!


----------



## thedude

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



mydumname said:


> Or because this is the us and the many innocent suffer because of what a few chose to do. Too easy to come up with examples of this.....but anyway.....
> 
> So you mentioned veradero were illegal....if this is so, how come legal ones of these were brought in but they don't want to do the same with mysteriosis? What is the reason that doesn't make this a contradiction? Meaning why ok for one but not the other?


Because mark was already working with the varadero when they were smuggled to Europe. And the smuggled ones were no where near as wide spread as mysteriosus. Not to mention, Peru doesn't want them to be legal.


----------



## thedude

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> In the case of Varadero, epi, and other formerly illegal frogs, I don't know about Europe, but in the US, the legally imported lines, UE, are more desirable and the smuggled lines have mostly disappeared, with the much more rare offering of other lines.
> 
> I suspect this is what we will see with vanzolini, now that UE is having good luck with them.


That's probably because people claim they are selling UE line frogs when they aren't. Over the past couple years multiple people claimed to be selling UE vanzolinii, even though the only one who had them was Gary, and they were all females.


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



markpulawski said:


> Hey Cornish J (by the way I have heard of a Cornish R and Cornish H but never a Cornish J), great photo's and I am very happy to see you doing well with them but these will always stimulate interesting debate which is good for our hobby as long as stays respectful. Try not to be bummed and post more photo's. I sure hope Easternversant is correct and the winds of change may bring about availability with this species, I too have always admired it since seeing the first photo's (who doesn't like a polka dot frog?).
> BTW how are you going to rear the tads? I have also heard from a guy in the Netherlands that allowing the young to over eat will bring about their demise...have you heard anything like that?


Well they've been transported to film cannisters, i plan to keep them in there for around a month to get them stronger and then move them into my tad system that i use for my azzies and leucs.

It's all a learning curve for me at the moment but i cant imagine they will be much different to the other tads i've raised, they do apparently take MUCH longer though!


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



GRIMM said:


> Wow, you guys are nuts. I definitely wont be posting pictures of the Panamanian Golden's I just picked up. Sheeesh!
> 
> Nice shots anyways of a beautiful frog. It is tough to get good transport pics!


Thanks Grimm .. i have you as a contact on flickr, your photos (frog and non frog related) are amazing!


----------



## markpulawski

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Grimm, why so....(sorry but you practically begged for this) grim?


----------



## mydumname

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Golden auratus or something else? Please post a pic


----------



## carola1155

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Cornish-J said:


> Agreed.
> 
> This is a thread for photos .. not general discussion on importing etc ... just read the second line on my original post!
> 
> enjoy the photos and stop stressing about something that is beyond our control and frankly no longer relevant anymore.
> 
> I specifically posted these photos for you guys as i know they aren't very common in the states and thought you might like to see them, in future i dont think i'll bother lol!


Look I don't want this to be interpreted as me attacking you or anything... but you do realize that you're basically saying: "hey check out these frogs that I have! look at how cool they are! oh by the way you cant have them because they're illegal where you live... well, ok maybe you can have them but you have to support smuggling to do it"

and to "stop stressing about something that is beyond our control" is a pretty naive statement to make on a public forum that is probably one of the biggest driving forces behind demand in this hobby in the US. 

I feel like people sometimes just assume that everyone knows everything in this hobby... or they think that people actually use the search function on the forum. The reality is that new members come on here all the time and if they are confronted with posts like this without knowing the real history of these things we are doing a disservice to the people that are trying to provide new animals to this hobby in a sustainable manner.


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

i agree some people dont know the full story but this is an area of photos - not a legality discussion .. thats why forums have sub sections etc.

If someone wants to point out their illegal then fine with me, but cmon, 9 pages of it .. 

mydumname - i think he's referring to the frog that's all but extinct in the wild, it was a joke 

also - what i meant by beyond our control is the smuggling aspect of mysti's that happened 10-15years ago, we cant change it, it's happened, it's no longer an issue so lets move on.


----------



## frogparty

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> In the case of Varadero, epi, and other formerly illegal frogs, I don't know about Europe, but in the US, the legally imported lines, UE, are more desirable and the smuggled lines have mostly disappeared, with the much more rare offering of other lines.
> 
> I suspect this is what we will see with vanzolini, now that UE is having good luck with them.


I disagree- too many vanzos in the hobby already and at such low
Prices. The UE frogs will never push this line to the side


----------



## mydumname

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Oh the atelopus maybe haha oops


----------



## Cornish-J

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*










This guy!


----------



## rigel10

@ Easternversant: I think the paper of 2007 referring to imitator Varadero, at that time referred to as "orange/blue morph". I quote: 

_Dendrobates imitator - Many morphs
are illegal, including the orange / blue
morph most recently._


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



frogparty said:


> I disagree- too many vanzos in the hobby already and at such low
> Prices. The UE frogs will never push this line to the side


I know you're probably right, I'm hopeful that the hobby proves us both wrong. More wishful thinking?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Cornish-J said:


> also - what i meant by beyond our control is the smuggling aspect of mysti's that happened 10-15years ago, we cant change it, it's happened, it's no longer an issue so lets move on.


So move on, don't talk about it, don't learn from our mistakes. What's that quote again?

Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

It is an issue and will always be an issue. It should always be an issue. New people join the hobby today and need to be aware.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



thedude said:


> That's probably because people claim they are selling UE line frogs when they aren't. Over the past couple years multiple people claimed to be selling UE vanzolinii, even though the only one who had them was Gary, and they were all females.


All the more reason to buy these frogs directly from UE or from those you can absolutely trust.


----------



## Pubfiction

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



thedude said:


> Probably, they are very common in Europe and Japan. Whats left of their wild population isn't really under much threat anymore thankfully. No point in destroying a cliff face, nothing else will grow on it humans could use. And no smuggling pressure. So unless chytrid a somehow makes it there, they should be fine in general.
> 
> Nice shots. Love the last one.


What if they want to make a carving of their presidents head?


----------



## Ed

For those interested in some of the economics that appear to be strongly driving the smuggling of frogs in EU and elsewhere... See PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect 

It is interesting to note that genetic testing is finally getting to the point that they can determine lineages so if someone like USF&W wants you bad enough they can always look at the lineages of the frogs to see if they originated where people claim..... see Wildlife DNA forensics against crime: Resolution of a case of tortoise theft for one example. 

I noted that there was some discussion on castenoticus.. I specifically asked USF&W about them and they were very to the point that they were all illegal. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



markpulawski said:


> There will never be a good or right or wrong answer definitively as to what to do with CB animals from known smuggled animals. If you destroy them, more demand for smuggling if you let them go it legitimizes them.


Actually both actions increase demand and thus smuggling.... Unless the market is saturated to the point that the frogs aren't selling, your going to still see economics driving smuggling.... It's the nature of the beast... which is why one of the best options is to just say no to suspect frogs.. but we all know that the status from having the newest hottest/rarest frog is going to drive demand in a significant portion of the hobby that smuggling is going to occur. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



thedude said:


> Originally Posted by thedude View Post
> Probably, they are very common in Europe and Japan. Whats left of their wild population isn't really under much threat anymore thankfully. No point in destroying a cliff face, nothing else will grow on it humans could use. And no smuggling pressure. So unless chytrid a somehow makes it there, they should be fine in general.l.


Or a slash and burn (or burn off of a pasture) spreads to the cliff face or smokes everything on it. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ecichlid

Cornish-J said:


> i agree some people dont know the full story but this is an area of photos - not a legality discussion .. thats why forums have sub sections etc.


 Other forums (not on frogs) that I have visited would have seen this as a hijacked thread. A moderator would have stepped in and at least split the topic.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

That is exactly what happened.


----------



## ecichlid

epiphytes etc. said:


> That is exactly what happened.


 Ahh, I see now. I did not recognize that because of how crude it was done. It's probably a limitation of the software. 

Thank you mods!


----------



## markpulawski

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Ed said:


> Actually both actions increase demand and thus smuggling.... Unless the market is saturated to the point that the frogs aren't selling, your going to still see economics driving smuggling.... It's the nature of the beast... which is why one of the best options is to just say no to suspect frogs.. but we all know that the status from having the newest hottest/rarest frog is going to drive demand in a significant portion of the hobby that smuggling is going to occur.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


But Ed if there are tons of CB frogs available at reasonable prices vs no frogs of that species, which looks more attractive to a smuggler? I am just saying like Terribilis, Bicolor, Tincs and so many others that are easy to breed their proliferation has taken the pressure off of the need to smuggle but there will always be those people that want the last Azureus, the last Mysteriousis and very sadly the last Lehmanni. If Mytis' were near impossible to produce I think you would see regular smuggling of the species to continue to supply the demand but since they breed readily that has somewhat curtailed it or at least I hope it has.
Interestingly here in the states no one I know hears of Peruvian frogs being smuggled nor do we regularly discuss what amazing Peruvian frogs I wish I had...Colombia however is another story.


----------



## thedude

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Ed said:


> Or a slash and burn (or burn off of a pasture) spreads to the cliff face or smokes everything on it.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Possible, but everything around the cliff faces is already slashed and burned.


----------



## markpulawski

ps mentioned Brad Lucas earlier with the BF Terribilis, meant Josh Lucas, our boy in the Midwest shunned by most by wanted to have all of the egg feeders and regularly imported from Europe all of those "CB" obligates from Colombia.


----------



## hypostatic

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Ed said:


> Or a slash and burn (or burn off of a pasture) spreads to the cliff face or smokes everything on it.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Or, what seems to be happening more and more, is rainforest mining for precious metals and stones, as well as drilling for oil...


----------



## edward

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Ed said:


> Actually both actions increase demand and thus smuggling.... Unless the market is saturated to the point that the frogs aren't selling, your going to still see economics driving smuggling.... It's the nature of the beast... which is why one of the best options is to just say no to suspect frogs.. but we all know that the status from having the newest hottest/rarest frog is going to drive demand in a significant portion of the hobby that smuggling is going to occur.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


mysti's are a common captive bred frog in europe that go for approx. 40 to 50 euros.
do not see someone going to all the trouble of smuggling them when cb ones are
inexpensive and easy to aquire (in europe at least).


----------



## Ed

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



markpulawski said:


> . If Mytis' were near impossible to produce I think you would see regular smuggling of the species to continue to supply the demand but since they breed readily that has somewhat curtailed it or at least I hope it has.


Mark if that was the case then we shouldn't see species common in the trade being smuggled... 



> In July 2000, Customs officers at Frankfurt Airport seized 770 live Yellow-banded Poison Frogs Dendrobates
> leucomelas (CITES II) that were hidden in three plastic containers and held in the hand luggage of a person
> arriving from Venezuela. The frogs have been given to Frankfurt Zoo. The case is under investigation.





> 21 October 2004: CITES II-listed Flaming Poison Frogs Dendrobates pumilio (580) and Green Poison Frogs
> D. auratus (22) hidden in the canisters of more than 200 film rolls. Each container held two to three frogs.
> Ten per cent of the frogs died during transport. Three Belgian citizens, who had arrived from Panama, via Madrid, were arrested.


and to show not only common dendrobatids that are widely captive bred are smuggled 


> In December 2008, UK Border Agency officers at Manchester Airport seized a shipment of live reptiles imported from the USA which were not accompanied by CITES import permits. Forty-four specimens were
> seized including African Spurred Tortoises Geochelone sulcata, Common Iguanas Iguana iguana, Royal Python Python regius and East African Spiny-tailed Lizards Cordylus tropidosternum (all CITES II).


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



edward said:


> mysti's are a common captive bred frog in europe that go for approx. 40 to 50 euros.
> do not see someone going to all the trouble of smuggling them when cb ones are
> inexpensive and easy to aquire (in europe at least).



As I just noted to Mark, common,inexpensive animals are smuggled all the time.. See the D. leucomela numbers in the above post.. and as I noted above unless supply equals demand, smuggling will continue since money can be made... 


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

A more recent confiscation of a commonly bred dendrobatid.. Poison Dart Frogs Nabbed at Ben Gurion - Hamodia 

and an interesting article from Brazil Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis in amphibians... [Dis Aquat Organ. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ed said:


> A more recent confiscation of a commonly bred dendrobatid.. Poison Dart Frogs Nabbed at Ben Gurion - Hamodia
> 
> and an interesting article from Brazil Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis in amphibians... [Dis Aquat Organ. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI


An ecoterror attack? Wtf? I know that wasn't your point in sharing the article, but after reading it, SMH, the authors are woefully ignorant.


----------



## thedude

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Ed said:


> As I just noted to Mark, common,inexpensive animals are smuggled all the time.. See the D. leucomela numbers in the above post.. and as I noted above unless supply equals demand, smuggling will continue since money can be made...
> 
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I agree with you in terms of most commonly bred frogs in the hobby, but mysteriosus are a bit of a special case. The smugglers would also be risking serious injury on those dry, vertical cliff sides. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it's unlikely anyone would take the huge risk for such little profit.


----------



## hypostatic

Ed said:


> In July 2000, Customs officers at Frankfurt Airport seized 770 live Yellow-banded Poison Frogs Dendrobates
> leucomelas (CITES II) that were hidden in three plastic containers and held in the hand luggage of a person
> arriving from Venezuela. The frogs have been given to Frankfurt Zoo. The case is under investigation.


Wow. That's quite a nice number of frogs



thedude said:


> I agree with you in terms of most commonly bred frogs in the hobby, but mysteriosus are a bit of a special case. The smugglers would also be risking serious injury on those dry, vertical cliff sides. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it's unlikely anyone would take the huge risk for such little profit.


I wouldn't put much past people. Are you familiar with goose barnacles?


----------



## stu&shaz

It is quite possible that I bred some of the frogs in the pictures,that started this debate,actually,now it's been split,from j's picture thread,I think it is a good debate,to have.it will make more folks aware of the issues pertaining to these frogs,in particular and also,shows,just how similar and how easy,it is to buy frogs of smuggled origins,especially when one, lives in a country,where there is utterly no paperwork,like Dr Nick has already stated so eloquently. No I didn't have a clue about all this,I've learnt about this one frog never being legally exported,on the american forums.

I actually bought the first of our group on a whim,it's almost ironic now, looking back that we had actually gone to buy some Understory frogs,some camo auratus and we did buy them ,the irony in the fact.that by the time those UE frogs got here,they had changed morph,they are super blue...blue on bronze call them what you like,but not camo!! A graphic illustration of just how messed up our hobby is here in the UK. No one here knew,ok one guy,I found out by digging and help from foreign parts,but I digress.
I think it is harsh to lump us all as greedy,ignorant of all the facts,yeah sure,absolutely,so we come here and try and be better by learning,asking folks like Ed for info etc. 

We have an ethical dilema,in that we keep frogs that came from smuggled stock,like those vanzos,mentioned earlier , I guess, and a clear legal one in which we keep the one frog never legally imported,almost but not quite two separate problems. When one finds out and one has already bought said frogs what does one do? Cull them,never going to happen? Pass them to someone else and say nothing,totally imoral,or breed them and spread them about? I choose the later. To me both of my first two options,were just wrong,some I guess will not like me for taking the third. But it did feel, and still does, like being between a rock and a hard place. I've seen the pictures of the dead frogs Mr Pepper showed at Lima airport,it broke my bloody heart,I became part of that,although buying a spotty frogs in a shop and calling myself someone whom supports smuggling in any way shape or form is a tenuous thing,but yeah I feel that guilt. I've lost sleep on these issues contacted a zoo to try and find out legal implications etc. I was told not to worry as they are CB,(our frogs that is). 

I've pretty much documented over here everything we did to obtain breeding success, my thinking was that we(our hobby) could do better with them,so many were suffering from sls back then. That seems to have helped and many are now bred here. But they are still that frog never legally exported.

I suspect you guys won't see them in captivity,it's a shame,but as Ed has documented so many time,and we have seen in europe many time,even commonly kept darts are smuggled,so if a market like the states opened it's doors,might the smuggling not start again. Honestly,i'm sure breeders in Europe could get together a large foundation stock of ,CB,and present them to an organistion(deliberately avoiding a name,so not to tarnish anyone) to make a pathway for monies to be realised to make these frogs wild counterparts more stable,but it's fraught with the aforementioned issue,of a market opening and smuggling starting up again.

So here we are,stuck in an almost catch 22 situation,a frog from 100% smuggled origins,kept by guys that do care about our hobby, and their wild brethern,but just didn't know enough when they started out,to not buy the illegal frog. I think it's important that this info is out there for your hobby and ours,I think it also draws in other frogs like the illegal vanzo line that has been mentioned,castis(again freely available here)CR pums,here too varadero fants before UE varadero im is,jerberos,flavs and on and on,I could have bought any of those,all probably from a smuggled origin unknowlingly. But I didn't I bought a mystie ,back we go to the top and the legal and moral problems with buying a frog as a beginner. The worst of it is I did some serious homework before frogs and still ended up here,breeding the one frog never legally exported.Legal issues were the furthest from my mind back then it has to be said,we both just wanted to do our personal best for our frogs.

Just for a second I'll digress from the legality side of this thread because, we have bred and can give some insights into a few things,that have been already mentioned,yup the spiderman walk,just like histrionica,they do move differently to most other darts. morphout time 5 1/2 months water temp between 72-74 degrees
Vit A as part of the vit dusting regime alongside repashy Ca+ has eradicated SLS here,every two weeks we dust with vit A (also repashy)

They are the boldest frogs we have,seriously so,looks might be appealing,but the character of these frogs and the way they will interact with a keeper,is wonderful.

UVB I think is very useful to them 

Tads start on spirulina based diet for the first couple of weeks they are small and need little food from the off,then I bring in a multitude of other grub.

Don't over feed the froglets,or let them get too fat,very easy,maybe the movent means they don't expend energy the same as other youngsters
Clutch size normally 4 -7,(others report higher)but had one clutch numbering 22,a total abnormality

They are very difficult to stop breeding once they have started,a real dry season or splitting being the only options to stop them,but they need that rest,feeding will be drastically reduced in this time


Honestly and straight from the hip,it's hard for me these threads about this little frog Shaz and I care for,half of me wants to make it right,but I can't I feel guilt,but don't really feel I did something wrong in my heart,apart from not educating myself enough. I also feel that the other keepers here that post about their mysties are not doing it to snub you guys,my name hasn't been mentioned here,but I did pass young on to Jaime,man it's so long ago,whether either of us knew about these issuse back then,ahh who knows,but I feel compelled to post anyway ,because we keep them and I'm implicated as the breeder. 

Finally,just a thought,for all the new guys coming in to our hobby,"mods" could you draw up a clear list of the various status of frogs in our hobby regarding legality,all this info needs to be clearly available and in one place,our laws maybe somewhat different,but inclusion of where new frogs are appearing even in Europe will help making an informed/ moral choice easier. Info certainly needs to be out there regarding lines too I suppose after reading about the vanzos

Sorry for the long winded ramble,I utterly adore these little guys,I wish things were different surrounding how they came into the hobby, here. I wish they were freely available without implication to the wild frogs But here we are 

regards

Stu


----------



## Pubfiction

Seems the take home from this is. 

If a frog is rare in the wild it gets smuggled.
If a frog is common in the wild it gets smuggled.
If a frog is rare in the hobby it gets smuggled.
If a frog is common in the hobby it gets smuggled.
If a frog has low value it gets smuggled.
If a frog has high value it gets smuggled. 
So if a frog has any value it gets smuggled.

If you combine any of them frogs get smuggled. 

The obvious answer is cities is broken. Send them back to the drawing board. It is apparent they have not thought through their policies and how they motivate nations and people to obey the laws. As such they have pushed hobbyist, and anyone else involved into tough situations with no good outcome no matter what decision they make and for this reason it is easy to see why anyone can justify pretty much any decision they want to.


----------



## thedude

Pubfiction said:


> Seems the take home from this is.
> 
> If a frog is rare in the wild it gets smuggled.
> If a frog is common in the wild it gets smuggled.
> If a frog is rare in the hobby it gets smuggled.
> If a frog is common in the hobby it gets smuggled.
> If a frog has low value it gets smuggled.
> If a frog has high value it gets smuggled.
> So if a frog has any value it gets smuggled.
> 
> If you combine any of them frogs get smuggled.
> 
> The obvious answer is cities is broken. Send them back to the drawing board. It is apparent they have not thought through their policies and how they motivate nations and people to obey the laws. As such they have pushed hobbyist, and anyone else involved into tough situations with no good outcome no matter what decision they make and for this reason it is easy to see why anyone can justify pretty much any decision they want to.


Your conclusion is it's CITES fault?? I would say it's our fault. Us hobbyists who just have to have a frog, whether it's available legally or not. Every time we buy something that's been smuggled we add more support to the smugglers. Letting them know if they get them we will buy them. Whether it's out of greed or someone's naive though that they "need to breed them just in case they go extinct in the wild."

It's not Peru or Colombias or any other countries problem to solve, they have bigger problems. This is all on us.


----------



## hypostatic

thedude said:


> Your conclusion is it's CITES fault?? I would say it's our fault. Us hobbyists who just have to have a frog, whether it's available legally or not. Every time we buy something that's been smuggled we add more support to the smugglers. Letting them know if they get them we will buy them. Whether it's out of greed or someone's naive though that they "need to breed them just in case they go extinct in the wild."
> 
> It's not Peru or Colombias or any other countries problem to solve, they have bigger problems. This is all on us.


As long as there is a demand for a product, there will be someone who will profit from that demand.


----------



## Pubfiction

My interpretation of this whole thing is kinda simple. If you, your country or agency like CITIES is not making significant progress and EVERY option leads to smuggling. Then clearly you are screwing up hard core. You cannot expect the problem to just go away, if you fix everyone at dendroboard you still got everyone not here, shows etc.... if you fix ALL of America you still have Europe, and if you fix all of Europe they will just go to Asia. 

Look at Tesoros de Colombia people are paying way over smuggling or CB prices to get these and you still got people crying on the forums they aren't getting enough sales. I can only interpret that to mean one thing. Tesoros is so buried in red tape and bribes to make things legal that it is crushing him. 

And all of that ignores the fact that if you really did completely rid the world of all smuggling and demand for anything illegal then the countries would simply see zero value in their biological resources and turn it into a mine / farm / parking lot.


----------



## Ed

Pubfiction said:


> The obvious answer is cities is broken. Send them back to the drawing board. It is apparent they have not thought through their policies and how they motivate nations and people to obey the laws. As such they have pushed hobbyist, and anyone else involved into tough situations with no good outcome no matter what decision they make and for this reason it is easy to see why anyone can justify pretty much any decision they want to.


I have to say that I am disappointed in this argument... It is nothing more than a thinly veiled rationalization on why you should simply ignore the legalities and do what you want.. We can see this by substituting virtually any illegal activity into the logic statement... for example,

Since the countries have not stopped heroin production and subsequent smuggling into the country, their policies need to be reevaluated but in the mean time you can purchase and use all of the heroin you want... or to another extreme... Since countries haven't stopped the sexual exploitation of children, they need to reevaluate their policies regarding child sex exploitation but until they do, you should be free to sexually exploit children. Since it is nothing more than a flawed rationalization, we can substitute anything into that argument (regardless of how distasteful it is) on why something illegal should be okay until they fix the issues/policies. A basic place for things to stop is for people to not purchase obviously smuggled frogs any thing else and you are simply enabling the problem further. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Pubfiction said:


> My interpretation of this whole thing is kinda simple. If you, your country or agency like CITIES is not making significant progress and EVERY option leads to smuggling. Then clearly you are screwing up hard core. You cannot expect the problem to just go away, if you fix everyone at dendroboard you still got everyone not here, shows etc.... if you fix ALL of America you still have Europe, and if you fix all of Europe they will just go to Asia.
> 
> Look at Tesoros de Colombia people are paying way over smuggling or CB prices to get these and you still got people crying on the forums they aren't getting enough sales. I can only interpret that to mean one thing. Tesoros is so buried in red tape and bribes to make things legal that it is crushing him.


Further rationalization, see my comments above on why this is a flawed argument. And for what it is worth, how do you know what the smugglers are paying or getting paid for the frogs? 



Pubfiction said:


> And all of that ignores the fact that if you really did completely rid the world of all smuggling and demand for anything illegal then the countries would simply see zero value in their biological resources and turn it into a mine / farm / parking lot.


Again, further rationalization.. unless a sustainable harvest if put into place, they never will see it as having any value. Your phrasing is an indication of the might as well get them while I can since they're going to get wiped out anyway mentality. 

See the discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511 AND 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-4.html#post586940


Sustainable harvest and not purchasing of smuggled frogs are the only way to begin to put a dent into this monster. As long as we have people putting forth the above rationalizations as justification, smuggling and greed will continue to cause issues. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> As was mentioned earlier. Dr. Brown described how the frogs would move down the cliff face and out into cattle pastures each day to forage. He raised some really interesting subjects as far as husbandry and how often many of our frogs occupy many different niches on a daily and seasonal basis.





thedude said:


> I agree with you in terms of most commonly bred frogs in the hobby, but mysteriosus are a bit of a special case. The smugglers would also be risking serious injury on those dry, vertical cliff sides. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it's unlikely anyone would take the huge risk for such little profit.


It might be more of a problem if the frogs weren't documented to come down off the cliffs to forage. In either case, paying the locals even a US/dollar/frog would be a significant incentive for them to grab the frogs and try to stash then for the smugglers to come by and purchase... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*

Ed, I interpreted Pubs post a bit differently. I don't think he is personally trying to rationalize or justify ignoring the law, rather, trying to represent what he thinks the rationale of others is for why they do it. I could be totally wrong.


----------



## Ed

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Ed, I interpreted Pubs post a bit differently. I don't think he is personally trying to rationalize or justify ignoring the law, rather, trying to represent what he thinks the rationale of others is for why they do it. I could be totally wrong.


Doesn't change the flaw in the logic.... I used you in the general sense and not as the specific just in case anyway.. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*Re: My Mysti's - Transporting!*



Ed said:


> Doesn't change the flaw in the logic.... I used you in the general sense and not as the specific just in case anyway..
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


10-4, reading over your posts again, I see that. I agree, the logic is flawed, but people seem willing to rationalize anything they want to justify having what they want. Oddly fitting for this thread.


----------



## thedude

Pubfiction said:


> My interpretation of this whole thing is kinda simple. If you, your country or agency like CITIES is not making significant progress and EVERY option leads to smuggling. Then clearly you are screwing up hard core. You cannot expect the problem to just go away, if you fix everyone at dendroboard you still got everyone not here, shows etc.... if you fix ALL of America you still have Europe, and if you fix all of Europe they will just go to Asia.
> 
> Look at Tesoros de Colombia people are paying way over smuggling or CB prices to get these and you still got people crying on the forums they aren't getting enough sales. I can only interpret that to mean one thing. Tesoros is so buried in red tape and bribes to make things legal that it is crushing him.
> 
> And all of that ignores the fact that if you really did completely rid the world of all smuggling and demand for anything illegal then the countries would simply see zero value in their biological resources and turn it into a mine / farm / parking lot.


I don't think you realize how oversimplified you are making this. There is not enough man power in any country or with any agency to stop this completely. They do catch people a lot, but not always, they can't. They have bigger problems like gang violence and drug smuggling. Bigger issues in their eyes than colorful frogs that weirdos in other countries want  also CITES has made great strides in cutting back WC imports in a lot of cases. If it wasn't for them, I wonder how many populations of large obligates would have been extirpated due to over collection?

As I said before, countries can only do so much, same with CITES and other conservation organizations. WE have to take some of the blame and responsibility.


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## nish07

I had high hopes that Marc could buy some of this land (I don't know if it's national refuge but probably because it's so small) and do some great stuff.

I'm sure the locals will still harvest them for smugglers. I realize they breed well in captivity but there's plenty of other frogs out there that are legal and these guys while being in a genus with only one other frog afaik still just kind of look like interesting colored auratus. They ought just fence the area off with razorwire + electrical fence.

I'd rather not contribute to the smuggling and on top of that it's probably 'the' frog that'll get your whole collection confiscated and some heavy fines or possibly jail time.

Maybe one day they'll become legal. Till then I can wait or work on something else (I'm hoping good things happen in Columbia).

-Nish


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## Pubfiction

Ed said:


> I have to say that I am disappointed in this argument... It is nothing more than a thinly veiled rationalization on why you should simply ignore the legalities and do what you want.. We can see this by substituting virtually any illegal activity into the logic statement... for example,
> 
> Since the countries have not stopped heroin production and subsequent smuggling into the country, their policies need to be reevaluated but in the mean time you can purchase and use all of the heroin you want... or to another extreme... Since countries haven't stopped the sexual exploitation of children, they need to reevaluate their policies regarding child sex exploitation but until they do, you should be free to sexually exploit children. Since it is nothing more than a flawed rationalization, we can substitute anything into that argument (regardless of how distasteful it is) on why something illegal should be okay until they fix the issues/policies. A basic place for things to stop is for people to not purchase obviously smuggled frogs any thing else and you are simply enabling the problem further.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I am not justifying anything I am pointing out just as much as you want to blame the hobby I think equal if not more blame should be places on the institutions, government, CITES etc.... My post said things about smuggling that to any economically knowledgeable person would make no sense at all. And almost anytime I have seen that in my life it is always the fault of some organization that has not thought about the consequences of their poor policy. 

I am glad you brought up international pedophilia, because actually it turns out that's a good example of where the USA stepped in on a problem that other countries had no intention of addressing and addressed it through unusual but partially effective policy. Under George Bush I believe we actually made it illegal to engage in this even if you were in a foreign country. And this reduced problems with blatant abusers. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Ed, I interpreted Pubs post a bit differently. I don't think he is personally trying to rationalize or justify ignoring the law, rather, trying to represent what he thinks the rationale of others is for why they do it. I could be totally wrong.


Correct, and my point is you can change anyone here but it wont do a thing about the rest of the people. I mean shoot so far as I have seen the people here and ones I have met at meetings and shows don't engage at all or rarely in smuggled animals unless they are hiding it from me. So where are all these animals going?



thedude said:


> I don't think you realize how oversimplified you are making this. There is not enough man power in any country or with any agency to stop this completely. They do catch people a lot, but not always, they can't. They have bigger problems like gang violence and drug smuggling. Bigger issues in their eyes than colorful frogs that weirdos in other countries want  also CITES has made great strides in cutting back WC imports in a lot of cases. If it wasn't for them, I wonder how many populations of large obligates would have been extirpated due to over collection?
> 
> As I said before, countries can only do so much, same with CITES and other conservation organizations. WE have to take some of the blame and responsibility.


No where am I excusing personal responsibility of individuals or the hobby at whole. If your policy involves nothing other than increasing your costs for enforcement then you are probably doing exactly what I am calling out here, making bad policy. Or if your policy just hopes that everyone will act in a noble fashion you shouldn't be allowed to make policy. For instance lets look at the immigration issue in the USA where bad policy is about to be made. In an effort to appease the Hispanic voters politicians are just basically opening the door to US citizenship for people who broke the law and came here illegally. But in a vain effort to appease another population they are going to beef up security. So what they have done is not a single thing other than cost the tax payers more money. Because while they will claim they have secured the border at the very same time they have increased the reward for making it into the country. The end result will be no change in illegal immigration, and increased death and abuse of immigrants going through a corrupt system to try to get here. 

I don't follow CITES but from what little I have heard of it, it sounds like they are actually causing half the problems they are claiming to fix, other wise half of this junk doesn't make any sense. I have heard around here multiple times people have said that its not worth it to try to import frogs because of the plane tickets, permits, etc.... This is all ridiculous, if its not worth it why are people smuggling? The only answer is the barriers that CITES have put in place are so expensive that even frogs which are common, and easy to breed are smuggled. And when you make things that bad, you are doing harm not good, or we are totally misinformed. 

Also why is captive breeding not part of the equation to reduce smuggling?


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## Ed

Pubfiction said:


> I am not justifying anything I am pointing out just as much as you want to blame the hobby I think equal if not more blame should be places on the institutions, government, CITES etc.... My post said things about smuggling that to any economically knowledgeable person would make no sense at all. And almost anytime I have seen that in my life it is always the fault of some organization that has not thought about the consequences of their poor policy.


As I noted above, your argument is justifying it in exactly the terms I pointed out... Your claim that I'm blaming the hobby is specious at best and you continue to take a stand that indicates the hobby should be free to pursue the frogs from any source... As for my failing to understand the economics of the issue, you should read the links I've added to this thread particularly the one on the allee effect... 

As a further note, if the hobby did not demand smuggled frogs there would be no smuggling, that is the bottom line economically. No where in my argument did I excuse institutions, that is your misinterpretation of my position. 

As for it being poor policy, I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the links above... (see post 136) 



Pubfiction said:


> I am glad you brought up international pedophilia, because actually it turns out that's a good example of where the USA stepped in on a problem that other countries had no intention of addressing and addressed it through unusual but partially effective policy. Under George Bush I believe we actually made it illegal to engage in this even if you were in a foreign country. And this reduced problems with blatant abusers.


This is a affirmation of why your argument is flawed. You cannot claim both sides of the argument as your position. Reduced does not mean eliminated. Under the criteria you set forth for other countries and CITES, this would still be a failure. 




Pubfiction said:


> Correct, and my point is you can change anyone here but it wont do a thing about the rest of the people. I mean shoot so far as I have seen the people here and ones I have met at meetings and shows don't engage at all or rarely in smuggled animals unless they are hiding it from me. So where are all these animals going?


Again, this is an excuse for people to engage in support of smuggled animals. They get to do it, so should I... 




Pubfiction said:


> No where am I excusing personal responsibility of individuals or the hobby at whole.


This contradicts your argument so far.. see above. 



Pubfiction said:


> If your policy involves nothing other than increasing your costs for enforcement then you are probably doing exactly what I am calling out here, making bad policy.


I suggest reading the two links I provided above... 





Pubfiction said:


> I don't follow CITES but from what little I have heard of it, it sounds like they are actually causing half the problems they are claiming to fix, other wise half of this junk doesn't make any sense. I have heard around here multiple times people have said that its not worth it to try to import frogs because of the plane tickets, permits, etc.... This is all ridiculous, if its not worth it why are people smuggling? The only answer is the barriers that CITES have put in place are so expensive that even frogs which are common, and easy to breed are smuggled. And when you make things that bad, you are doing harm not good, or we are totally misinformed.


Again, justification.. The "barriers" that CITES has put into place are to prevent massive exploitation from depopulating ecosystems of certain animals. Without regulation, the populations would have no control over excessive harvest.. 
As for the hassle to import the frogs, plane tickets generally mean you want to go and hand pick/hand carry frogs... The rest of it are policies set in place to try and control smuggling and those policies have evolved over the years as smuggling tries different things, like laundering animals through non-signatory countries... 




Pubfiction said:


> Also why is captive breeding not part of the equation to reduce smuggling?


Read the links I provided above... Economically captive breeding does not slow down smuggling unless the cost of the captive bred animal is below the cost the collectors pay for it... The ball python market is a classic example, despite the huge numbers of ball pythons being captive bred, we still see tens of thousands of bush/ranched babies exported from primarily two countries. This is only possible because the demand for baby ball pythons is in far excess of what the captive bred market can supply. 

Again, I suggest you read the links in the above post (post 136). That is the position of conservation through captive breeding and it is highly flawed. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S

gee...who said: "supply vs. demand"...??? So what's new???


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## markpulawski

Ed I think Understory's captive breeding program has curtailed the smuggling of the frogs they work with quite a bit, I have also heard that was the incentive for commercialization in Colombia. The attitude is smuggling can not be stopped it can only be curtailed by commercialization and making legal specimens available of certain species...though the value of those will still stay high enough to promote smuggling and likely the number available will never be high enough either.
Case in point if suddenly 10,000 CB Histrionicus were available through legal channels at say $500 each, they would sell out and satisfy a great part of the demand. If 10,000 CB animals of 7 or 8 different morphs were made available at $500 each it would likely satisfy all of the demand. Would a few still want smuggled WC, sure but very few. Captive breeding programs is the only true solution to this problem as people will always want what is not available.


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## Ed

markpulawski said:


> Ed I think Understory's captive breeding program has curtailed the smuggling of the frogs they work with quite a bit, I have also heard that was the incentive for commercialization in Colombia. The attitude is smuggling can not be stopped it can only be curtailed by commercialization and making legal specimens available of certain species...though the value of those will still stay high enough to promote smuggling and likely the number available will never be high enough either.
> Case in point if suddenly 10,000 CB Histrionicus were available through legal channels at say $500 each, they would sell out and satisfy a great part of the demand. If 10,000 CB animals of 7 or 8 different morphs were made available at $500 each it would likely satisfy all of the demand. Would a few still want smuggled WC, sure but very few. Captive breeding programs is the only true solution to this problem as people will always want what is not available.


Mark,

There are multiple issues in this discussion and the claim that captive breeding actually reduces demand on wild animals whether it be via smuggling or legal animals hasn't been shown to work as long as the cost of the wild caught animals is equal to or less than the cost of the captive bred animal. As you well know in this hobby, there is a stigma attached to many captive bred dendrobatids (and other frogs) as captive bred animals are often lacking the vibrant color of wild caught animals as well as the average adult size and this is before we get to the implied issues with inbreeding in the captive population. This places an enhanced value on wild caught animals, which also helps drive the continued smuggling of commonly captive bred frogs. (For example, red eye tree frogs were added to CITES II classification because they were being smuggled out of Nicaragua in significant numbers (potentially as many as 20,000) despite the huge number of these frogs being readily available from captive bred stock.). 

A further complication of this issue is that the animal in question doesn't even have to be rare, it just has to be perceived to be rare for the smuggling to be a threat to it (see http://129.175.106.17/epc/conservation/PDFs/Endangering.pdf). 
With respect to your comment about the numbers and satisfying demand, you are ignoring that there are multiple markets for this demand and new ones are open in Asia (and no I'm not referring to Japan, they are an established market) (see http://www.vincentnijman.org/files/a88_nijmanshepherd_poisonarrowfrog_biodivconserv_2.pdf) 10,00 animals is probably not going to satiate most of the hobby.. 

As the price of animals drops due to saturation of the market, many people perceive them as common and sell of their stock or stop breeding them and the captive population drops until the cycle is over and they are hard to acquire again, result in demand for wild caught animals (new stock...yada yada yada)... 

As a totally different note, I would like to see the facility that can drop 10,000 cb histrionicus onto the open market.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid

Kazakhstan??? I would have never guessed. Interesting reads.


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## markpulawski

Ed as long as I have been in this hobby smuggling has gone on, most will want what is not available or what they can't have which is human nature, now we can temper that desire with conscience. Up until Understory started in Peru there were no true breeding programs in any of these countries...now Ecuador, Costa Rica, Colombia and Peru all have verified and documented programs, all of these programs offset the need to smuggle the frogs they work with and that is the only thing offsetting smuggling outside of the legal harvest of WC animals.
I think we both will agree that some one will always want what is not available and will give smugglers the opportunity to "provide their services" but outside of these breeding programs there is nothing other than smugglers that could provide these animals. Take Veradero Imitator, when found smuggled heavily into Europe and then exported here and finally UE was able to start getting animals out and many people bred them and now I would assume very few if any are being smuggled out of Peru these days. I would suggest populations like lehmanni as imperiled as they are may have as their only hope of survival in the wild these breeding programs, though this would still likely be a smuggled frog as the numbers produced would never meet demand. That's why I threw out the 10,000 number, if by some miracle they could be produced in those numbers it would satisfy the demand. Better for the few who still desire WC only need 100 WC animals rather than the 10,000 a breeding program could produce if you get my meaning.
So if our choices are buying smuggled, WC or truly farm raised animals it becomes and easy choice for most of the hobby. If there is no breeding program for a specific species or frog that is desired it boils down to conscience. This is a huge difference in our hobby say from the 90's to today, nothing like this was available, let's hope in 20 more years there will be advancement that will match but hopefully far surpass this.


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## ecichlid

markpulawski said:


> Take Veradero Imitator, when found smuggled heavily into Europe and then exported here and finally UE was able to start getting animals out and many people bred them and now I would assume very few if any are being smuggled out of Peru these days.


 I would have thought so too, until I read the case noted above about a couple getting caught smuggling 770 leucs. If I understand Ed correctly, as long as the cost of wild smuggled frogs is cheaper than captive bred, then a profit motive exists.

Please correct me if I misstated anything.


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## Pubfiction

ecichlid said:


> I would have thought so too, until I read the case noted above about a couple getting caught smuggling 770 leucs. If I understand Ed correctly, as long as the cost of wild smuggled frogs is cheaper than captive bred, then a profit motive exists.
> 
> Please correct me if I misstated anything.


There is levels which we seem to have no real good grasp of. Nothing is absolute. Their is also plenty of random variability, IE even if it is more expensive to smuggle it will still happen. But I think it is unreasonable to think that a lowered value of frogs, threats of real punishment, or availability of legal frogs sources has no affect on smuggling. No one seems to point out that this guy was caught. Instead people seem to just assume that catching one guy means hundreds slipped buy with no problem. But maybe it was the same guy doing it over and over, that is probably common. 

This is part of why I consider governments to be partially at fault. How many of you legal frog breeders have shipped your frogs to Asia if it is such a booming market? Care to elaborate why not? If we could supply them and do not, where do you think they will get their frogs from?


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## nish07

One of the Guyanas legally exports leucs not the ones from Colombia, Venezuela or Brazil afaik. I don't think there's a whole lot of variation, though. I could be wrong. I haven't seen much more variation than greenish footed leucs and maybe greenish leucs in general (besides the spots/stripes). Then again, I keep hearing stories of frogs in areas people haven't been to much looking really different. Who knows?

-Nish



ecichlid said:


> I would have thought so too, until I read the case noted above about a couple getting caught smuggling 770 leucs. If I understand Ed correctly, as long as the cost of wild smuggled frogs is cheaper than captive bred, then a profit motive exists.
> 
> Please correct me if I misstated anything.


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## hypostatic

ecichlid said:


> I would have thought so too, until I read the case noted above about a couple getting caught smuggling 770 leucs. If I understand Ed correctly, as long as the cost of wild smuggled frogs is cheaper than captive bred, then a profit motive exists.
> 
> Please correct me if I misstated anything.


I think the greater picture was that just as long as people want frogs (or any animal or plant, really), then there will be smuggling.


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## rigel10

From someone, there, in America he has taken these frogs. From who? Aside from the overtly provocative (and offensive) tone of the guy above, to me it shows that frogs illegal circulate from you. Reported offenses! If penalties in U.S. are expensive as here, some dudes will not have much to tease!


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## ZookeeperDoug

rigel10 said:


> From someone, there, in America he has taken these frogs. From who? Aside from the overtly provocative (and offensive) tone of the guy above, to me it shows that frogs illegal circulate from you. Reported offenses! If penalties in U.S. are expensive as here, some dudes will not have much to tease!


I'm so lost. I know English isn't your first language.

Are you saying I am overly provocative and offensive? And that illegal frogs circulate from me?

I'm assuming not, and that maybe you were posting before some other posts got into the mix?


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## JPccusa

I'm removing all the posts related to the banned user since that have been taken care of. Not leaving "troll tokens" on potentially good threads.


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## jrodkinsey

Aside the fact on what peoples views are on keeping this species, this thread is honestly a good read.


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## rigel10

@ZookeperDoug: Absolutely not. In fact, I'm on your side. I was referring to the other, who has offended you. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
If anyone knows of that guy of mystis, I mean, why not report him and his frogs to the authorities? I wanted to say this... Again sorry for the misunderstanding.

Please mods do not remove this post to Doug for clarification.


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## ZookeeperDoug

rigel10 said:


> @ZookeperDoug: Absolutely not. In fact, I'm on your side. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
> If anyone knows of that guy of mystis, I mean, why not report him and his frogs to the authorities? I wanted to say this... Again sorry for the misunderstanding.
> 
> Please mods do not remove this post to Doug for clarification.


Thanks for the clarification, i was pretty sure that was the the case.

I don't think the guy actually had or has mysti's. he was just trolling to get a rise out of people. We sniffed it out pretty quick and put an end to it.


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## ecichlid

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I don't think the guy actually had or has mysti's. he was just trolling to get a rise out of people. We sniffed it out pretty quick and put an end to it.


 Do you mean the OP? If so, what would give you that idea? I'm sure you would have one, I was just curious.


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## ZookeeperDoug

ecichlid said:


> Do you mean the OP? If so, what would give you that idea? I'm sure you would have one, I was just curious.


Not the OP, some posts got deleted, so this makes no sense now.


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## ecichlid

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Not the OP, some posts got deleted, so this makes no sense now.


 Gotcha. Thanks.


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## Tropicaldarts

Funny how this was the species that got me into the hobby, sad to find that their numbers are down and is illegal in the U.S.. MY LUCK, ha?!


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## thedude

Tropicaldarts said:


> Funny how this was the species that got me into the hobby, sad to find that their numbers are down and is illegal in the U.S.. MY LUCK, ha?!


I feel your pain, red lehmanni have been my favorite frog since I was 4.....


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## Conners

Not sure if appropriate to resurrect an old thread in this way - apologies if not. 

I'm from the UK, and I've been investigating the legal status of _E.mysteriosus _ in captivity in my country. 

As many readers will be aware, this species is widely sold and exhibited in some European countries, whereas the possession of this species is reported to be controlled or prohibited in other countries such the USA and the Netherlands. 

It's also widely believed within the hobby that no _mysteriosus_ have ever been legally exported from their country of origin, and that therefore the entire captive population are descended from smuggled animals. 

In the UK, CITES is given effect via:

- The EU Wildlife Trade Regulations (Council Regulation (EC) No 338/97 of 9 December 1996). An EU Regulation is immediately enforceable as law in member states, without the need for national Parliaments to ratify it. 

- A Statutory Instrument named The Control of Trade in Endangered Species (Enforcement) Regulations 1997.

The Council Regulation contains Annexes A, B, and C, which broadly correspond with CITES Appendices I, II and III, with some overlap (e.g. an Appendix II species may appear in Annex A if the EU has adopted stricter measures relating to that species than CITES itself).

S8 of the Enforcement Regulations make it an offence to purchase or sell an animal listed in Annex A of the Council Regulation, and an offence to purchase or sell an animal listed in Annex B "which has been imported or acquired unlawfully".

_E.mysteriosus_ is thought to have been grouped within the _Dendrobates spp. ( II ) (Poison-arrow frogs)_ entry in in Annex B and Appendix II of the original legislation.

At CITES CoP16 in 2013, it appears that a new standard was defined which separated the _Dendrobates spp_. listing as follows:

_Adelphobates spp. (II) 
Ameerega spp. (II) 
Andinobates spp. (II) 
Dendrobates spp. (II) 
Epipedobates spp. (II) 
Excidobates spp. (II) 
Hyloxalus azureiventris (II) 
Minyobates spp. (II) 
Oophaga spp. (II) 
Phyllobates spp. (II) 
Ranitomeya spp. (II)_

Each of the above genera (or species in the case of _H.azureiventris _) is listed in Appendix II and therefore Annex B of the Council Regulation, which by default contains all Appendix II species except where an EU member state has entered a reservation or where the EU itself has placed the species in Annex A. 

Therefore, as far I can determine, the law regulating possession of _Excidobates_ species in the UK is the same as that regulating the possession of any other Dendrobatid frog.

In the UK, the Enforcement Regulation makes possession of a species listed in Annex A a criminal offence (unless a certificate or general derogation has been granted pursuant to Article 8 of the Council Regulation). 

In the UK the Enforcement Regulation does not make it an offence to possess a specimen of an Annex B species (which includes any specimen of dendrobatid frog), unless that specimen was imported or acquired unlawfully. 

As the law refers to "specimens" and therefore to individual animals, it is arguably not an offence to possess the offspring of poison frogs that were acquired unlawfully. 

However, S9(3) refers to circumstances in which an authorised person who has reasonable grounds for believing "that there is any unlawfully imported or acquired specimen on premises" may "in order to determine the identity or ancestry of any specimen, require the taking from any specimen of a sample of blood or tissue". 

At a stretch, you could read into this a willingness to enforce the regulations in respect of the offspring of animals acquired unlawfully. 

But I think it is more likely the wording was included to cover circumstances where the authorities are trying to prove that an animal is a stolen specimen, and want to compare its DNA with a sample taken before the animal was smuggled.

My conclusion therefore is that it is probably legal at the present time to purchase or sell captive bred _E.mysteriosus_ in the UK, notwithstanding what is known or suspected about the circumstances by which this species came to be in the hobby. However, this is just my interpretation and I could be mistaken. 

Possession of _mysteriosus_ could be made illegal / regulated in the EU by moving the species to Council Regulation Annex A. For example, the Platypus frog (_Rheobatrachus silus_) is listed on Annex A even though _Rheobatrachus spp_. is on Annex B. 

Similarly, some individual snake species or subspecies such as the Jamaican boa (_Epicrates subflavus_) and the Argentine Boa (_Boa constrictor occidentalis_) are on Annex A even though most _Boidae spp_. are on Annex B. 

Given tales of hobbyists in e.g. Holland (an EU member state) being fined for possession of _mysteriosus_, I presume there is legislation in certain countries (including presumably the USA), which imposes stricter controls than most legislation derived from CITES. 

In the Netherlands this could be via "entering a reservation" to the Annex B list, as discussed earlier. 

I do not rule out the possibility that there is additional legislation in operation within the UK which has some bearing on the above. However, I have not been able to identify any.

I make no comment on ownership of _mysteriosus_ from a moral standpoint - I have merely been trying to determine the legal position in the UK. 

Best wishes, 

Conners


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## Ed

Its pretty easy in the US. The LACEY Act includes all of the offspring of illegally acquired animals. So any and all mysteriosus in the US pet trade are illegal. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Conners

Ed said:


> Its pretty easy in the US. The LACEY Act includes all of the offspring of illegally acquired animals. So any and all mysteriosus in the US pet trade are illegal.
> 
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed - I researched the Lacy Act after reading your post. Very interesting to see how it's done your side of the pond. 

Incidentally, I found the following on a Dutch forum, which I've run through Google Translate to get the gist of it:

Legaliteitskwestie Excidobates mysteriosus > Gifkikkerportaal > Gifkikkers

"On March 19, 2012 is a matter for the Multiple Chamber in The Hague Been on hold Excidobates mysteriosus for the hobby. On April 2, 2012, the verdict was. The relevant hobbyist has been sentenced to a fine of 2750 euros, 2000 euros conditionally (the requirement was 5,000 euros) and withdrawal from circulation of these frogs. All the objections of the defense were dismissed by the judges, including the fact that captive bred frogs would be covered by the exemption scheme. That is not the case. The species E. mysteriosus can and can not legally have among themselves. The ruling of the court is now case law in this regard."

___

What I find interesting is that some participants on the Dutch forum who discussed this topic referred to the fact that the same law applies in Holland as in the rest of the EU, but that it's enforced properly in Holland. One poster referred specifically to CITES.

Given my findings as per my previous post, I don't think it can be CITES that makes _mysteriosus_ illegal in Holland. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the species is technically illegal across the whole of the EU by dint of some regulation though.

Personally I have refrained from keeping this species (notwithstanding the temptation of 5 beautiful specimens on sale at a nearby exotics retailer).

It is one thing to accept that some of our animals may be descended from specimens that were transported illegally at some point in the past - it's quite another thing to know it for certain.

That said, I don't judge anyone else in the UK for keeping these frogs. For one thing, the majority of hobbyists may have no idea that this species has never been legally exported from Peru.


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## Scott

Don't kid yourself - they know.

They choose not to care.

This topic will now be closed.

s


Conners said:


> ...
> 
> That said, I don't judge anyone else in the UK for keeping these frogs. For one thing, the majority of hobbyists may have no idea that this species has never been legally exported from Peru.


----------

