# dead leuc



## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

my frog died today for no apparent reason. they are 7weeks out of the water so basically a froglet. i have 6 froglets in a 16quartz plastic shoe box container because i wanted to moniter them for eating habits before i set them in my viv. i would always supplement them with herptivite and repcal. the temperture in the container was 79 degree, is that a problem? the humidity was at 95 the one that died was the biggest out of the 6. i use sphagnum moss as substrate and i provide 2 coco huts for hiding spots. all of them were eating last night and when i checked in the morning there was a dead leuc. Could they be fighting? cause i cant think of any other way that it could die.Also when i checked in the morning there was one other leuc that was really stiff and wouldnt move. his fore arm was out but after 5min he jumped only for a little wat was that all about? plz help me with my leucs why they are dying and why one of them was stiff. Plz give me some advice so its not late for the other leucs. thanks


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm only going from the gut on this one, but 79 is high. Mid to low 70s are ideal.


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

i thought leucs can live even in the 83?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

How old are your supplements? The stretched stiff limbs suggests possible
calcium deficiency? There are others who are more experienced in this than I am.


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

ive juss bought my supplements from josh's frogs. and the expiration dat is FEB. 10. i always supplement them with herptivite and repcal every feeding. why would it die? why are they being stiff when everyting is being maintain correctly....


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Short of having a necropsy done, we are only speculating about possible causes for the death of the leuc. Could be environmental, stress-related, dietary....there's lots of variables. Do you have a herp vet?


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

The first thing I would do is to back the temps to 72-73 F.


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## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

Do you have the type of thermometer that has a minimum and maximum setting? This would help you determine if you had a temp. spike (high or low). Unless they are too near a heater in the winter they should be fine at room temperature almost all the time. We can only guess at the cause at this point so don't beat yourself up; you may not be at fault. 

Adding leaf litter should only reduce any stress if that is the cause but they sound way too young for this sort of behavoir. A cool shady area may help an overheated animal regulate his temp. 

Sorry about your loss


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## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

From my expierence with Leuco's, I'd blame the temps mostly, Exceptions to every rule, I know, but I found since I moved my Leucos to cooler temps in the low 70's from the higher seventies and eighties I have had more visibility, more calling and less stress problems. (We all learn by doing and I had heard that a successful breeder in Texas keeps his leucos in higher temps. and had moved therefore all mine to a warmer section but found more problems developed from seizures to deaths.) I'd also add the stress problem too, I have alleviated this by less frog per container as well as lots of film canisters in growing out tanks.
Again, others may have other opinions, but I had the same ailments as you had and they were alleviated by cooler temps and more hiding spaces. (Not to hijack the issue,My terribilis I found are additionally VERY sensitive to temp and now keep all them in the lower near the floor sections of the frog room and watch the closeness of the fixtures to the vivs.)
Hope it helps, it's how we all learn somtimes.
B.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

You might think about separating them into more containers and see if symptoms develop in separate groups.


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

what can cause stress for the leucs? i dont want them to stress if they are even stressing.i provide lots of hiding spots for them not to stress anyone else with some suggestion? cause i dont want any more to die


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

RRRavelo said:


> Do you have the type of thermometer that has a minimum and maximum setting? This would help you determine if you had a temp. spike (high or low). Unless they are too near a heater in the winter they should be fine at room temperature almost all the time. We can only guess at the cause at this point so don't beat yourself up; you may not be at fault.
> 
> Adding leaf litter should only reduce any stress if that is the cause but they sound way too young for this sort of behavoir. A cool shady area may help an overheated animal regulate his temp.
> 
> Sorry about your loss


 i do have a thermometer its a digital one. and it should be accurate because the reptile store recommend it. im juss so bummed out about it. it looks so sad when it died. its tongue sticking out. such a sad sight to see. i dont want the other to be like it.


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## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

Just a thought, but I use grow out containers (190 oz 9.75") from Superior enterprises as well as other firms, that I use for all my tads in transition etc. I like them for the fact you can always see the frogs. When their in the "resoption of tail mode", I mound a handfull of long milled sphag. on one side and simply place the frog in the container with its tadpole water, leaving water for it to swim in by adding a bit more if needed. It can climb on the spag. hill when needed too. A usually put a few tads per container, (Less is More) and can monitor their growth and feeding habits.
These container also contain the fruit flys for me better then shoe boxes. As the frog become more land dwelling,more sphag is added to raise the level to 1 inch depth, I add a feeding of springtails which multiply, as well as a few sprigs of pothos ivy and film canisters. Easy, stress free transition, from tad to frog. Index card on top carries tad info.
I mention this because when a frog has questionable health problems as your did, this environment seems to be pallative for their health. Kinda like a mini intensive care unit. Their additionally disposable if fecals show a problem. Did I mention they hold humidity great too!
I wish this was my idea, but it comes from Pete Mertens a long time frogger.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I agree that temps that high in a confined shoebox could be a problem. But there is another thing to consider and that is CO2 asphixiation. What type of ventilation do you have? And where are the vent holes. CO2 is heavier than air and settles low. Also, with warm temps and high humidity, a lot of CO2 can be produced from decomposition of organic matter in the shoebox. Frogs that die of CO2 poisoning are often found stretched out and stiff. So a very plausible cause could be CO2 posioning that was aided by high temps. A simple fix is to run a hot nail through the shoebox at a few spots at, or below, the substrate line to allow heavy gases to drain out of the container.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

I for one am pretty skeptical that 79 degrees would do it, but if it spiked up well above 80 for awhile, then maybe...

I think CO2 asphyxiation is more likely, although even that would surprise me, unless he'd been in the sealed container for quite a long time without it being opened. It's still a good idea to punch a hole or two into containers in which you keep froglets long-term (although I really only do this half-heartedly, I open most enclosures daily or every-other day and have never had a problem with CO2, but it can't hurt...)

A few suggestions - split the frogs up into individual containers or at least no more than 2-3 froglets per container. Get rid of the coco huts - I think they are lousy hidespots for the frogs as they don't really "press in." Animals generally like hidespots that are tight, and hard to wriggle in to. Put in a bunch of dead leaves. The frogs will get themselves in among them and feel much better. Plus there is less competition for spots than there would be for just two coco huts and six frogs.

What kind of water are you using?


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

the water im using is drinking water which drink from. my mom buys it from the store and i just put it in the water dish. i spray them with tapp water that has been left for 24hours so teh chlorine could evaporate. if you say its the CO2 build up why didnt the other 5 die? only 1 out of the 6 in the box died. i wouldnt think CO2 would be the case because they are all housed together. could it have been stress or somthing? are they fighting?


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

It could be stress, it could be co2 (even if only 1 has died from it, you have another that was showing bad signs?) and after opening the lid to see your frogs you let the air exchange. thats not to say it wont happen again if you close the lid for a period of time w/ (like mentioned) temps humidity. also like mentioned probably not fighting , but could be stress??

SO what do you do right?
well split them up into multiple containers.. get a larger rubermaid?? so they are not crowded?
give them plenty of plant clippings to hide in/under?
make sure the humidity levels are high?
make sure the temps are cooler?

its hard to say what killed the frog, but these are all the suggestions that the members have givin... Which if not all of these suggestions are you doing?


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

AaronAcker said:


> It could be stress, it could be co2 (even if only 1 has died from it, you have another that was showing bad signs?) and after opening the lid to see your frogs you let the air exchange. thats not to say it wont happen again if you close the lid for a period of time w/ (like mentioned) temps humidity. also like mentioned probably not fighting , but could be stress??
> 
> SO what do you do right?
> well split them up into multiple containers.. get a larger rubermaid?? so they are not crowded?
> ...


 the one that was showing bad sign was actually doing great when the temperture was down to 75. it was really hyper. it was competing for food against the other frogs. one person told me the reason why it had the stiffness was because i woke it up in the morning when i was checking if they were okay. i was so relaxed when they were all eating the flies. i guess it was the temps. that still doesnt explain why the other die :shock:


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> Short of having a necropsy done, we are only speculating about possible causes for the death of the leuc. Could be environmental, stress-related, dietary....there's lots of variables. Do you have a herp vet?


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks for your helps guys. only one of them died. now they are more active for some reason because i lower the temps down to 75 degree. that really helped. now they are competing for food and what nots. thanks


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I still think the facts that have been presented fit CO2 poisoning closer than any other explaination provided. As has been said, those temps should not have been lethal. But those temps would have sped up decomposition of materials in the shoebox which is the major source of CO2 in a viv. CO2 settles into pockets so it is typical to have only one or a few animals affected while others are apparently unharmed. The kicker is the stiffness. High concentrations of CO2 cause the blood to acidify and causes death within a very short time, often less than a minute. A common symptom is muscle contractions which results in a keeper finding their frogs laid out stiff on the bottom of the tank. While CO2 poisoining is rare, it does happen and the Europeans have taken it much more seriously than we do over here. Finding a frog stretched out and stiff but that recovers soon after the lid is opened sounds suspiciously like CO2 to me.

Regardless of whether CO2 was the culprit here, a number of simple remedies to your problem have been offered and I hope that you take advantage of them. Simply dropping the temp from 79F to 75F would not provide much comfort for me because I don't think anyone here thinks that 79 degrees alone would explain a death like that. It may have contributed, but something else is probably involved. It could be stress from too many frogs in the space, it could be CO2. Either way, the solutions are pretty simple to avoid any more losses.


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

The temps got em'. When I was starting out had I temps at the 78s' ish and my first two froglets died. They are just more fragile at that age.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

When I lived in Texas, I had leucs get up to 84F for about a week when the ac went out. The group of 5 just hid out and became very inactive, but they returned to normal behavior within a couple days of the ac being repaired. I also had my first 2 froglets during this time; they basically did the same thing that the adults did, and, to the best of my knowledge, still alive and kicking down in Texas with a fellow herper. I seriously doubt temps directly played a role in the frog's demise.


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

i didnt know they were that sensitive to the temperture but i wont make that mistake again :]


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