# Lorenzo clutch watch



## frogface

I got my first two frogs in May, 2010. It was two Lorenzos. I tried like mad to breed them and they tried like mad too, lol. Eventually, the three of us figured out that they were both males. 

So, I traded one of them for a female, sometime last winter or spring. Can't recall. This time, the breeding worked out a little better. They were laying at least one clutch per week. However, none of the eggs hatched to tads. They would melt or explode. Sometimes the melty or explody stuff would turn a beautiful shade of violet. 

Anyway, been trying all sorts of things to help get it right. Fattened them up, put them on a diet, made it wet, made it dry, heat up, heat down... blah blah. I've added Repashy Vit A to their supplement rotation, at less than once per week, and, I've tried some other secret tips, shhhh. 

The last thing I did was to make them warmer. Previously, they were kept around 70-72. With this last clutch, I hung a heat lamp near by to raise the temps. Now they are around 74-76. 

I don't know if any of the things I did helped, or, if they are doing it on their own, but, I might have my first viable clutch!

Now, before people start PMing me about froglets (you know who you are  ), the first viable froglets belong to Julio, since the baby-momma came from him. So, send your PMs to Julio (hahah just kidding). 

Ok, the point of this thread is to track the progress of my clutch. If this clutch doesn't make it, I've got another one, recently pulled. 

I am very open to any suggestions to help me along the way. 

Picture of the parents









Video of the parents courting some time back





Pics of clutch
With flash
















Without flash

















Really bad, but, mercifully short, video of wiggling around in the eggs


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## billschwinn

They look good to me!


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## eazyezcape

Awesome! Congratulations on your first healthy batch. Frogs and tads look great!


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## james67

oooo ahhh, dibs on any "ghosts" 

james


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## frogface

james67 said:


> oooo ahhh, dibs on any "ghosts"
> 
> james


Hmmm we might be able to work out a trade. I need lots of fans


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## WendySHall

Congratulations, Chris! They look great! I've got my fingers crossed for you! I know how it feels to wait and wait... I'm still waiting for a good BYH clutch.


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## Julio

congrats!! i am sure they will give you more in the weeks to come.


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## Happy_Frogger

Very cool. I hope they do well for you and lots more to come. I think you can change your disclaimer though since you are getting these to successfully breed


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## tclipse

frogface said:


> Now, before people start PMing me about froglets (you know who you are  ), the first viable froglets belong to Julio


Damn you autocorrect.... it was supposed to say tclipse not Julio 

congrats, but aren't you a little young to be a grandma?


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## frogface

tclipse said:


> Damn you autocorrect.... it was supposed to say tclipse not Julio
> 
> congrats, but aren't you a little young to be a grandma?


LOL! Actually, I'm just about right to be a grandma. Now, is Bill old enough to be a greatgrandpa?


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## botanyboy03

Congrats Kris!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Triangle breeds another morph of darts!!!!!!! Maybe I need to play around with the environment with the variabilis and then they will lay for me. Lots of calling, no babies.


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## billschwinn

frogface said:


> LOL! Actually, I'm just about right to be a grandma. Now, is Bill old enough to be a greatgrandpa?


I take the Fifth, and then I might drink one!


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## frogface

One of them is getting fuzzy


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## SmackoftheGods

Congrats Kris, keep up the good work.

Also, be careful with the VitA. It wasn't designed to be used regularly. It's intended to treat hypovitaminosis. Overuse of VitA may lead to hypervitaminosis (which is just as bad as what you're attempting to treat for). It should be used no more than once a week, and chances are with regular use of other Repashy supplements which contain vitamin A you can phase the VitA out of the rotation rather quickly.


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## frogface

And then there were two ....

When these guys crash and burn, they go fast! So far, the remaining two look ok and are still moving around. I don't always remove bad eggs, but, with these guys I will as they have a tendency for molding and getting smooshy.

I'm concerned with what appears to be a white spot on the nose of the tad on the right. What do you guys think about that? 

Also, here is a pic of the next clutch in line. This is about when they usually start melting. There is a lot of debris in their dish but I'm reluctant to move them. It seems like when they melt, the membrane sort of dissolves around them. I don't want to disturb the membrane. 

Good news is that the parents have been in the Love Hut all day. 

Jake, thanks for the reminder about Vit A. I did use it sparingly and not at all in the past few weeks. Figured the parents were more important to me than breeding them and didn't want to potentially jeopardize their health with too much Vit A. I might give them a bit more, soon, depending on how the eggs are progressing. It does appear that they are getting better. 

eggs


















remaining tads (note the white on nose)


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## frogface

I meant to mention that the second tad to go still looked good. The tad looked normal but the egg sack went flat and dissolved around him. I put him in a tiny bit of water, not enough to cover him. He doesn't have the look of death but he's not moving. I don't expect him to continue to develop in there, just thought it would be interesting to see. 

Anyway, anyone know what's going on when the egg sack dissolves but the tad still appears ok?


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## Happy_Frogger

frogface said:


> I meant to mention that the second tad to go still looked good. The tad looked normal but the egg sack went flat and dissolved around him. I put him in a tiny bit of water, not enough to cover him. He doesn't have the look of death but he's not moving. I don't expect him to continue to develop in there, just thought it would be interesting to see.
> 
> Anyway, anyone know what's going on when the egg sack dissolves but the tad still appears ok?


How old are the eggs?


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## Woodsman

There are a lot of opinions about this, but I do remove tads from their eggs on occasion, especially when they develop normally and get into the situation your tadpoles are getting. I also use the methylene blue (diluted three or four drops per gallon of water) to help keep bacterial infections from destroying the eggs.

I have a 2.1 group going (thanks to a loaner female from Erick G.) and hope to have results soon as well.

Good luck! Richard.


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## frogface

Happy_Frogger said:


> How old are the eggs?


The tads where pulled last Saturday. The more recent eggs were pulled around Tuesday. I didn't document the date but will when the next batch is pulled. 

It seems like they develop slowly and I've wondered if that's why the egg sack goes before they do. I was hoping that increasing temps would speed development time. 

I recall one picture I sent to Bill to check out. The tad had been in the egg sack for over two weeks and was no where near ready to come out. He didn't make it. 

What do you think?


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## frogface

Thanks Richard. Have you removed a tad before it had gills?


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## Woodsman

Hi Kris,

It looked from the video that at least two of the tads were wigglers, which is the earliest that I have moved tads. One thing I have done is to add about 1/3" of water to the dish and then use a single edge razor to release the tads into the water. I have also moved them to individual trays with a small amount of methylene blue water.

Hopefully, things will improve and you'll have amuch easier time with them.

Richard.


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## billschwinn

I always remove bad eggs. The one that had the egg disolve, it may live as I have had a few that did that and lived.On clutches that have feces or other morsels on the surface of the egg dish I remove the debris with toilet paper.I would also suggest the methyline blue if your not already using it.You might experiment with a little mild antibiotic solution and see if that gives you better results, as it looks like they keep dying at the same stage, something to think about.


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## frogface

The tad that came out of his sack and is in a small container with a little water, was twitching. Still alive, I guess. We'll see what happens with him.

I cleaned out the dirty petri dish. I've been using methylene blue so no changes there. Nothing has exploded or melted since my last post. 

Now, here is tonight's clutch. Someone mark this down, I want to track the time it takes for them to develop.


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## Happy_Frogger

frogface said:


> The tad that came out of his sack and is in a small container with a little water, was twitching. Still alive, I guess. We'll see what happens with him.
> 
> I cleaned out the dirty petri dish. I've been using methylene blue so no changes there. Nothing has exploded or melted since my last post.
> 
> Now, here is tonight's clutch. Someone mark this down, I want to track the time it takes for them to develop.


Check the date on the post, there is your e-notes


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## frogface

Well, the sack was dissolving around the last two tads. I decided to remove them, as Bill and Richard said they have had success this way. Didn't need a razor, though. It fell apart as I moved it. Easiest tad release ever. 

They are now back in their petri dish with just a bit of water. Good news is that they are moving a bit. I'll post a pic when I get home. Want to know if I did it right.

The other two clutches continue to look good.


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## Tadbit

Best of luck Kris!


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## frogface

Ok here are the three tads, sack-less and gill-less. Oddly, they are still alive. How does the water level look? Btw, the petri dish is sitting on a blue cloth for the pic. I don't have them swimming in straight methylene blue.


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## billschwinn

Water is ok level.


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## botanyboy03

How are the babies Kris? BTW, I literally just found a clutch of 5 eggs in my before now unknown pair of azureus tank, not 60 seconds ago. They're just a little over a year old from Jeff.


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## frogface

Grats on your Azureus clutch! 

Sad to say, the last of Julio's tads went to the big pond in the sky a couple nights ago. He was hanging in there but didn't seem to be developing. 

The next clutch in line looks pretty good though. I made them an incubator out of a large tub, PVC supports, eggcrate, and, an aquarium heater. It is a very large tub! I guess I'm optimistic haha. 

I keep the heater set at 75 so now they have a consistent environment. The condensation inside that thing is unreal. I might use it as a rain chamber for my tree frogs. 

Here are some pics of the tub and the next clutch. This is the clutch that was pulled on 10/23. The one before that is not looking good.


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## Baltimore Bryan

I use a nearly identical incubator tank for eggs/tads, but I use a 5 gallon glass aquarium with a lid instead of a platic tub. It works very well for me, and yes there is lots of condensation! I have had to hatch out tads like you did on one or two occasions where it was apparent they wouldn't have made it... I don't exactly recall but I think it was about 50-50 survival. I have hatched tads with gills out a couple times and they did ok, so under the right conditions they can be fairly hardy. Good luck with the tads and rest of eggs.
Bryan


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## xsputnikx

Sorry to see all your trouble your having. I wish you the best of luck on your next clutch


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## fieldnstream

Hang in there Kris...these little setbacks are just gonna make it even more awesome when you finally get that first froglet out of the water


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## Zoomie

Kris, hang in there. You'll get everything dialed in.


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## WendySHall

The 10/23 clutch looks like a lot of the eggs I am getting from my BYH's...and none of them have been good. It seems that whenever there's any white in the beginning, they go bad.  If you get it figured out, Kris...please let me know.


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## frogface

You noticed that too, huh? 

Each clutch has been black in the beginning, with the yolk sack turning beige by the time the tad starts to show. These guys are active and look good, except the odd color of their yolk sack. Anyone know what deficiency would cause that? The parents get Repashy Calcium Plus with every feeding and occasional Vit A supplement. 

Well, they had just sneaked off to the coco hut when I left for work this morning. I won't give up if they won't


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## Julio

i been able to fix that with using vitamin A alone usually on a 2 week rotation, but with the new repashy pure vitamin A supplement it works rather fast and use it only about every other month or so.
What other supplements are you using?


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## frogface

I'm using Repashy Calcium Plus for all my frogs. Previously I was using the ICB. Also the Repashy Vit A, that I used once per week for a few weeks. Stopped using it and then started again last week, with only one dose given so far. The next one would be this weekend. 

By 2 week rotation, do you mean that you use Vit A once every 2 weeks?

edit: oh I just re-read and see that you use the Repashy Vit A monthly or so. Hmm.

Of interest: I have some galacts that took in that have serious problems with mobility. Their back feet are flaccid and their back legs had inadequate movement. They also have trouble catching flies. Even when I feed them Buzzies (erm forgot the actual name) that just sit there and flap their wings. I've been supplementing them with the Repashy Vit A and they are able to move around so much better. They are 'hopping' as well as they can, without the use of their feet. And they can climb around the wood pretty well now. They still have some problems with feeding but have gotten a lot better.


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## Julio

are you using nothing but repashy? i found in my experience that i get better production when i use different vitamin supplements every feeding and calcium every other feeding all on a rotation


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## frogface

I'll try that, Julio. I had been alternating with RepCal D3 and Herptivite, but, got lazy with the all-in-one Repashy stuff. I'll add those back in. Any other supplement suggestions?


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## Julio

i also use herpetal, dendrocare and superpreen, but use repcal every other feeding and alternate with a different vitamin supplement in betweeen


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## frogface

Well, I had a chat with a nice fella. He agreed with Julio's suggestion that the eggs appear to be from parents lacking Vit A. He also said that without enough Vitamin A in the eggs, they aren't able to maintain their fluid balance and what appears to be lightening of the egg is actually the abdomen swelling from fluid build up.

Interesting as always! 

So, my Lorenzos are back on their Vit A habit. Stay tuned for an update with nice black eggs. 

(The above info is paraphrased from a PM from Ed. Want to give credit where due.)


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## billschwinn

frogface said:


> Well, I had a chat with a nice fella. He agreed with Julio's suggestion that the eggs appear to be from parents lacking Vit A. He also said that without enough Vitamin A in the eggs, they aren't able to maintain their fluid balance and what appears to be lightening of the egg is actually the abdomen swelling from fluid build up.
> 
> Interesting as always!
> 
> So, my Lorenzos are back on their Vit A habit. Stay tuned for an update with nice black eggs.
> 
> (The above info is paraphrased from a PM from Ed. Want to give credit where due.)


ok, so I have to ask, the egg has an abdomen that swells from fluid build up? Am I understanding this right?


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## frogface

Abdomen=egg sack? 

It's possible (likely) that I missed something in my paraphrase. I sent a PM to Ed asking if I can copy/paste part of his PM on this thread. Don't want to post a PM without consent.


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## frogface

Ok here is a snip from a PM, with Ed's permission:



> With the tadpoles, that looks like they didn't get enough vitamin A in the eggs to allow for proper development of the pronephros which resuts in the young tadpole from being able to maintain it's fluid balance resulting in the swelling of the abdomen in the picture. The abdomen isn't losing color, instead it is swelling due to the fluid buildup which pushes the pigment cells far apart.


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## Woodsman

Hi Kris,

If you do have a Vitamin A deficiency in the female, it would probably be best to separate her until she can regain good reserves of the vitamin. If she keeps trying to produce clutches without building-up adequate reserves, she'll just keep producing deficient clutches. If you can give her a couple of months by herself with no egg production, she'll be much more likely to produce good clutches when reintroduced to the male.

Take care, Richard.


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## Julio

when seperating tincts is always best to take the male out as females take much longer to get established.


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## gilliusis

I look forward to your post because Lorenzo is my next challenge. Thank you for all that info and photo. Congratulations on the eggs and chances for future babies! (what size is your terrarium please?)


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## JeremyHuff

Kris,

Don't get too frustrated. There is a reason Lorenzos are rare. I have been using the new Repashy Vit A which sticks very nice to ff. I also use human grade Vit A from the vitamin shop, super preen, dendro care, Calcium plus ICB, Super pig and Nekton. Get these guys going. I lost one of my pair, so put me down on your wait list.

Good luck
J


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## frogface

gilliusis said:


> I look forward to your post because Lorenzo is my next challenge. Thank you for all that info and photo. Congratulations on the eggs and chances for future babies! (what size is your terrarium please?)


Hi! Good to see you here on my thread 

The tank is 29 gallons. The dimensions in centimeters is 72 x 30 x 45

Here are some bad pictures of the tank. 



















JeremyHuff said:


> Kris,
> 
> Don't get too frustrated. There is a reason Lorenzos are rare. I have been using the new Repashy Vit A which sticks very nice to ff. I also use human grade Vit A from the vitamin shop, super preen, dendro care, Calcium plus ICB, Super pig and Nekton. Get these guys going. I lost one of my pair, so put me down on your wait list.
> 
> Good luck
> J


Thanks Jeremy. I'm so crazy about these frogs. I want them to reproduce so I can have more like them 

Do you know what happened to your Lorenzo? I heard of someone else who was getting their pair breeding but lost them. It would really break my heart to lose one of these little guys.

Here are pics of the tads from today. Even if they manage to morph, I don't imagine they will do so, healthily, if they are already deficient in Vit A. So, I put a little of the Repashy Vit A in their petri dish. Don't know if it did anything, whether good or bad, but, they're hanging in there. Still no gills. They were first laid on 10/23.


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## JeremyHuff

I was taking pics of some frogs for my website. The Lorenzo was amazing with what was brought out when using a flash.


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## gilliusis

Frogface thank you for the photo. 
I just book today for my two lorenzo in December ! I expected the answer for a long time, a few weeks ...... 
I wanted three frogs, but for now the farmer has only two. I'm happy anyway ! Courage for your eggs, it will come ....!


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## frogface

gilliusis said:


> Frogface thank you for the photo.
> I just book today for my two lorenzo in December ! I expected the answer for a long time, a few weeks ......
> I wanted three frogs, but for now the farmer has only two. I'm happy anyway ! Courage for your eggs, it will come ....!


Please post pictures as soon as you get them!


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## gilliusis

No problemo !!


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## frogface

I separated the happy couple. There have only been 2 clutches since 10/23 and they have been one egg each. The first egg was solid white, like a tiny porcelain marble. The second one looked normal and is in the incubator. I figured this was a good time to go ahead and split them up for a bit. 

Here are some shots of my boy in his new pad.


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## marylanddartfrog

frogface said:


> I separated the happy couple. There have only been 2 clutches since 10/23 and they have been one egg each. The first egg was solid white, like a tiny porcelain marble. The second one looked normal and is in the incubator. I figured this was a good time to go ahead and split them up for a bit.
> 
> Here are some shots of my boy in his new pad.






In the future maybe it would be better to remove the female because the male establishes a territory


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## Julio

marylanddartfrog said:


> In the future maybe it would be better to remove the female because the male establishes a territory


Not a good idea with tintcs is always best to remove the male, females take a while to get establish usually and males will just start calling as soon as placed in a viv


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## frogface

The last two tads are still alive, but, a little on the strange looking side. They have thickened, curved, tails that look to be, almost, forked. But, they move around. 

Their petri dish was getting a bit dirty, so, I put them in separate, clean, dishes with a little more water, to see if they'll swim a bit. I also put in a very little bit of crushed up dried bloodworms. 

I got one belly shot. Tried to get more shots of it but he flipped himself back over before I could.




























And one more picture of dad, taking his bath.


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## Zoomie

Hang in there!


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## marylanddartfrog

What are those huts made of they are neat


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## frogface

marylanddartfrog said:


> What are those huts made of they are neat


That is a small plastic container with a hole cut out of the side, and then, covered with clay (clay, coco fiber, sphagnum). The frogs seem to prefer it to the standard coco hut. I think they like the small opening.


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## billschwinn

frogface said:


> That is a small plastic container with a hole cut out of the side, and then, covered with clay (clay, coco fiber, sphagnum). The frogs seem to prefer it to the standard coco hut. I think they like the small opening.


I think Kris markets them as Lorenzo Love Mud Huts!


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## frogface

billschwinn said:


> I think Kris markets them as Lorenzo Love Mud Huts!


Indeed! And proper respects to Bill, my design manager. When my first hut came out with a gigantic opening, he said 'uh no'.


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## vivlover10

Awesome idea with the huts!!!!!!!!!!

Congrats on the Lorenzo's, I hope they create such beautiful frogs for you!!!


congrats again,
ROB


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## gilliusis

frogface said:


> Indeed! And proper respects to Bill, my design manager. When my first hut came out with a gigantic opening, he said 'uh no'.


You say that the doors of the huts must be small ?! What is the width of yours? I use coconut.


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## frogface

When I first made the mud hut, the door was so small that they could only squeeze in, one at a time. They liked it, though. It's gotten bigger over time, as they went in and out. 

I think they prefer a smaller door than the average coco hut. They like the coco hut too.


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## billschwinn

gilliusis said:


> You say that the doors of the huts must be small ?! What is the width of yours? I use coconut.


As in many animals they want to feel secure in their breeding and nesting areas and a larger opening would leave them vulnerable to predators.


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## gilliusis

I ask because my terribilis likes to see what is happening around their coconut. The tinctorius are more timid ?!


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## billschwinn

gilliusis said:


> I ask because my terribilis likes to see what is happening around their coconut. The tinctorius are more timid ?!


The best way I could answer this is terribilis don't have much to fear in their activities as nothing much I would think messes with them.


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## frogface

Update. 

The Lorenzos are back together in their tank. I only had them separated for umm, one or two weeks. They missed only one and a half breeding cycles.

Why? Well, I know this will sound silly and like I'm trying to anthropomorphise my frogs, but, they seemed really unhappy. She climbed up into the top section of the tank and hunkered down in a hole in the wood up there. She would eat if I put flies up on the wood by her. I'd see her little yellow head poke out and her tongue snapping up flies. He stayed hidden in the back of a film can, in his tank. I added more leaves and plants and hides to help him out but he stayed hidden away and he was not eating. So, I panicked and put him back in their regular tank. They laid a clutch that day. 

Oh, also interesting, they have a spot under a tipped over pod that they sleep in together. When I put him back in the tank, they went back to sleeping in their spot, together. I thought that was neat.

So, yea, I'm a sap.


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## gilliusis

Behavior very interesting ! The eggs are there more and fertile ?


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## frogface

gilliusis said:


> Behavior very interesting ! The eggs are there more and fertile ?


Yes they appear to be getting better. 

When do you get yours?


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## gilliusis

Next Saturday I go to the exhibition, but the farmer with whom I booked my two lorenzo, told me this week that it will not come ! 
I hope to find another breeder !!


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## frogface

gilliusis said:


> Next Saturday I go to the exhibition, but the farmer with whom I booked my two lorenzo, told me this week that it will not come !
> I hope to find another breeder !!


Oh no!!


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## gilliusis

I will pray to find my happiness ! With any luck there may be a small breeder who has ......!


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## Arpeggio

ooooh Frogface that's exciting!!!!!!


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## frogface

Holy clutch!

They had started courting when I left for work yesterday. They were still in the hut when I got home last evening. Still going when it was time for lights out and all the other frogs were in bed. I left a lamp on in their room to give them some ambient light and shut off their tank light. Still in the hut when I went to bed around 10.

Here's what I found this morning. I hope some of them got fertilized and he didn't give up and go to bed like I did


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## james67

dibs

james


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## billschwinn

Copy Cat! I see 2 upside down ones, I would flip them over.


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## frogface

billschwinn said:


> Copy Cat! I see 2 upside down ones, I would flip them over.


Thank you!! I'll take care of that asap.

Hey, Bill, wasn't I telling you just a few weeks ago that I thought she might be a little egg bound? I bet she's feeling a lot better today, lol. This morning, they slept in. I fed them by their sleeping spot because I figured they were beat. Breakfast in bed.


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## frogface

Blah, only 3 eggs were good by the time I got home tonight. Ironically, 2 of them are the upside down eggs. Hopefully she was getting rid of the last of her funky eggs and we will be drowning in froglets soon. 

Oh, I don't know what to make of this, but, the membrane around the egg sacks is much, much tougher with this clutch.


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## billschwinn

My clutch of 9 2 weeks ago had 1 good egg, must be the Great Lorenzo Conspiracy!


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## eazyezcape

Just save me two down the road. Care for a millon Varaderos?


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## james67

eazyezcape said:


> Care for a millon Varaderos?


yes. i'll take reasonably priced tads anytime. PM me if your serious (although i dont have anymore lorenzo )

james


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## frogface

eazyezcape said:


> Just save me two down the road. Care for a millon Varaderos?


Interesting. However, I've really got my eyeballs on your Cayo de Agua


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## gilliusis

gilliusis said:


> I will pray to find my happiness ! With any luck there may be a small breeder who has ......!


That's it ! I'm back in the exhibition. My prayers were not heard .....!  
I have not found a new producer for my lorenzo .....
I am very patient and I await the day they will be there! For me !


News of your eggs !?


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## frogface

gilliusis said:


> That's it ! I'm back in the exhibition. My prayers were not heard .....!
> I have not found a new producer for my lorenzo .....
> I am very patient and I await the day they will be there! For me !
> 
> 
> News of your eggs !?


All eggs were bad. No development at all. I think he got tired of waiting and went to bed. 

I bet she's glad to be rid of all those eggs. It's time for their next clutch.


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## gilliusis

I really wish you good luck, and many babies lorenzo .....!
I'm sure the next egg will be good


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## frogface

They skipped a week since laying the monster clutch on December 6. Then, last night, they left a present for me. 

These are smaller than the previous eggs have been. Don't know what that means. Hoping it means they are fresh and good and ready to be tads. 

Dad getting ready for the big event. I think I saw him taking flowers and wine into the hut


















Eggs! Look, there are 8 of them and a 2 in 1, too. 


















Eggs are tucked away in their toasty incubator and parents will get a tasty flour beetle larvae breakfast treat


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## Enlightened Rogue

I really think you should get them matching robes Kris.

John


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## Woodsman

Fingers crossed for you, Kris.

I'll add my recent experience with Lorenzos. I had a 2.1 group that I raised from tadpoles that Mike K. had given me, but unfortunately my female died (almost everyone I know around here who has Lorenzos have had inexplicable losses). Erick G. was kind enough to loan me his female about a month ago and today I have the first clutch from this group. Four very small eggs, but fully black (so I hope they are good). I added water with methylene blue to the petri dish and removed it from the viv. Attached are some photos of the frogs and the clutch.

Take care, Richard.


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## frogface

Grats Richard!! Please feel free to post your updates here, if you wish


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## Woodsman

Thanks Kris. If you aren't using water with methylene blue in it for your egg clutches, it's worth a try. I add four drops or so per gallon of water and it definitely keeps any molding issues at bay (though I think, in the case of the inbred Lorenzos, we are looking at something else that is killing the eggs).

Take care, Richard.



frogface said:


> Grats Richard!! Please feel free to post your updates here, if you wish


----------



## frogface

Woodsman said:


> Thanks Kris. If you aren't using water with methylene blue in it for your egg clutches, it's worth a try. I add four drops or so per gallon of water and it definitely keeps any molding issues at bay (though I think, in the case of the inbred Lorenzos, we are looking at something else that is killing the eggs).
> 
> Take care, Richard.


I was using methylene blue but have recently switched to a tea made with distilled water, a few leaves, and a little peat moss. It's not cooked to make it concentrated. A mild tea 

Molding isn't a problem right now. It's more of a development problem. The parents are fed well and supplemented with Repashy calcium plus. Extra Vit A on the weekends for the past month or so. I'll be adding herptivite back to their rotation soon. 

Interesting that others have had their Lorenzos die inexplicably. I would really like to know what's going on there. I would be inconsolable if my Lorenzos died. Is there no inkling of what's happening?


----------



## billschwinn

Woodsman said:


> Thanks Kris. If you aren't using water with methylene blue in it for your egg clutches, it's worth a try. I add four drops or so per gallon of water and it definitely keeps any molding issues at bay (though I think, in the case of the inbred Lorenzos, we are looking at something else that is killing the eggs).
> 
> Take care, Richard.


I have been advising Kris on my protocall on Lorenzo's.Basically simple in my mind , might seem inadequate to others on here. I do not know why it works, I just know it does work for me. I have had mystery losses years ago of Lorenzo, Oyapoks and BYH when I kept them in what I call standard issue vivaria, too humid in my opinion. I use screen lids with plastic sheeting on top, folded back during the day an avg of 30% to ventilate during the day, closed at night.Food is FF, occasional pin heads and termites rarely. All food is dusted with herptavite, every few weeks using Rep Cal. I have tried using The repashy products on them and found no change either way.I will say when I use less Herptavite I get less breeding in all my Darts.On my Lorenzo , when I get eggs I use Zephyrhills brand spring water with Prime Drops in it. I use this on all my Dart eggs. Whent I use treated Tap for my Dart eggs I usually lose most of them, But I can use my treated tap water for the tads and have no problems.I am no scientist, but I do know what works for me, And that is what I am concerned with.Breeding Darts is not rocket science, they don't read the book to learn what to do, It is in my opinion in many ways easy, if we learn to read our animals, they will let us know what they need.


----------



## Manuran

billschwinn said:


> I have been advising Kris on my protocall on Lorenzo's.Basically simple in my mind , might seem inadequate to others on here. I do not know why it works, I just know it does work for me. I have had mystery losses years ago of Lorenzo, Oyapoks and BYH when I kept them in what I call standard issue vivaria, too humid in my opinion. I use screen lids with plastic sheeting on top, folded back during the day an avg of 30% to ventilate during the day, closed at night.Food is FF, occasional pin heads and termites rarely. All food is dusted with herptavite, every few weeks using Rep Cal. I have tried using The repashy products on them and found no change either way.I will say when I use less Herptavite I get less breeding in all my Darts.On my Lorenzo , when I get eggs I use Zephyrhills brand spring water with Prime Drops in it. I use this on all my Dart eggs. Whent I use treated Tap for my Dart eggs I usually lose most of them, But I can use my treated tap water for the tads and have no problems.I am no scientist, but I do know what works for me, And that is what I am concerned with.Breeding Darts is not rocket science, they don't read the book to learn what to do, It is in my opinion in many ways easy, if we learn to read our animals, they will let us know what they need.


Breeding secrets!!  Thanks for sharing! Would be very interesting if Kris can replicate your success with her Lorenzos.


----------



## billschwinn

Manuran said:


> Breeding secrets!!  Thanks for sharing! Would be very interesting if Kris can replicate your success with her Lorenzos.


I hope she can as well, although we would at that point probably need to allow for the extra head room needed!


----------



## frogface

Manuran said:


> Breeding secrets!!  Thanks for sharing! Would be very interesting if Kris can replicate your success with her Lorenzos.





billschwinn said:


> I hope she can as well, although we would at that point probably need to allow for the extra head room needed!


Hah!

I do keep the tank on the dry side. They have a 2" deep screen running across the back of their 29g tank. I might re-do that to see if I can get a little more ventilation. Need to get some fresh Herptivite. Stopped using treated tap water on the eggs. I haven't been able to find Zephyrhills spring water here, but, have my eye open for an acceptable alternative. We'll see. 

Of the 8 pulled yesterday, 1 appears to be good so far. Fingers crossed


----------



## frogface

How quickly it all goes to pieces...


----------



## Manuran

Hi Kris,
Whenever eggs go bad like that, you should remove all but the good ones without too much delay. For clutches from frogs that give you sturdy, healthy eggs it's not always necessary, although you can lose neighboring eggs too. But, in sensitive clutches I would stick to removing them.


----------



## frogface

Thank you. I'll take care of that right now.

eta: Here it is in a nice clean petri dish. So far nothing weird appears to be going on with it.


----------



## hypostatic

I've been reading through the thread, and although I don't have any experience with breeding frogs, I have a strong background in biology so I figured I'd put in my two pennies. 

Looking through the pictures I saw so things that stuck out at me. The first thing that I noticed was that your frog was laying several eggs that had the jelly part but were missing the yolk part. Also, in one of the most recent clutches you showed there was an egg with two yolks.

A similar thing can happen in chickens, where they'll produce eggs with only the whites, and where they'll produce eggs with two yolks. These eggs aren't viable -- development may begin in the two yolk case, but it will ultimately fail.

In the chicken's case, these problems arise from the hen's reproductive tract not making the eggs correctly. This is usually a problem with young hens, and often disappears when the hen matures a bit more (although it is possible that the hen is infertile and cannot make good eggs).

Perhaps a similar thing is happening with your frogs? I noticed that the overall quality of the eggs improved once the parents were separated. I think it might be a possibility that the improvement was due to your female frog taking a break from attempting to breed, and having some time to recharge and mature her reproductive machinery a bit. So perhaps it might improve further if your frogs are separated for longer? I think I recall previous suggestions for them to be separated for a couple of months?


----------



## botanyboy03

Maybe you need a new stud? Maybe he's shooting blanks. Ive got a dozen azureus in the same amount of time. Or maybe he has yet to fertilize them when you have pulled them?

Zac


----------



## james67

hypostatic said:


> Looking through the pictures I saw so things that stuck out at me. The first thing that I noticed was that your frog was laying several eggs that had the jelly part but were missing the yolk part. Also, in one of the most recent clutches you showed there was an egg with two yolks.
> 
> A similar thing can happen in chickens, where they'll produce eggs with only the whites, and where they'll produce eggs with two yolks. These eggs aren't viable -- development may begin in the two yolk case, but it will ultimately fail.
> 
> In the chicken's case, these problems arise from the hen's reproductive tract not making the eggs correctly. This is usually a problem with young hens, and often disappears when the hen matures a bit more (although it is possible that the hen is infertile and cannot make good eggs).
> 
> Perhaps a similar thing is happening with your frogs? I noticed that the overall quality of the eggs improved once the parents were separated. I think it might be a possibility that the improvement was due to your female frog taking a break from attempting to breed, and having some time to recharge and mature her reproductive machinery a bit. So perhaps it might improve further if your frogs are separated for longer? I think I recall previous suggestions for them to be separated for a couple of months?


this is VERY common. many times darts lay extra gel masses in order to keep the proper moisture around the viable eggs. 

james


----------



## james67

botanyboy03 said:


> Maybe you need a new stud? Maybe he's shooting blanks. Ive got a dozen azureus in the same amount of time. Or maybe he has yet to fertilize them when you have pulled them?
> 
> Zac


i doubt seriously that this is the issue. the eggs are developing as can be seen in many of the pictures which indicated that they have been fertilized. this particular locale of tincorius (lorenzo) has a reputation for poor success during this stage of growth. there is a reason that these are one probably the most rare tincs in the US.

james


----------



## hypostatic

james67 said:


> this is VERY common. many times darts lay extra gel masses in order to keep the proper moisture around the viable eggs.
> 
> james


I'm assuming that the general care of the frogs hasn't changed much during the last couple of clutches, which leads me to this question: if the relative humidity hasn't changed much between clutches, then what HAS changed that caused the recent clutch to look healthier?

As is see it there are 2 probable causes for the failures in development: innate (eg: the female is producing bad eggs which can't develop into good tads), or environmental (eg: something is happening to the eggs after fertilization that is causing them to die).

Again, I don't have experience with breeding these guys, and I understand that it is tough. But maybe me asking questions might help figure out if anything is wrong? If not I'll shut up lol


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> I'm assuming that the general care of the frogs hasn't changed much during the last couple of clutches, which leads me to this question: if the relative humidity hasn't changed much between clutches, then what HAS changed that caused the recent clutch to look healthier?
> 
> As is see it there are 2 probable causes for the failures in development: innate (eg: the female is producing bad eggs which can't develop into good tads), or environmental (eg: something is happening to the eggs after fertilization that is causing them to die).
> 
> Again, I don't have experience with breeding these guys, and I understand that it is tough. But maybe me asking questions might help figure out if anything is wrong? If not I'll shut up lol


Nooo don't shut up! I'm happy to have you on my thread 

Things that have changed:

I took the male out for a week or so, then put him back in because he stopped eating (which freaked me out. I'd rather have him alive and well)

They got a new, thick coating of leaf litter in their tank.

They have been getting Vit A regularly, on a weekly basis (in addition to their Repashy Cal Plus. Will get some fresh Herptavite soon).

I made a temperature controlled incubator for the eggs.

(what am I forgetting, Bill?)

Stopped using treated tap water and switched to mild tad tea made with distilled.


----------



## frogface

botanyboy03 said:


> Maybe you need a new stud?
> ... Zac


I *know* you aren't saying my baby isn't man enough for the job


----------



## frogface

I have a good feeling about this egg. Or, at least, that we're on the right track. It appears to be developing and it hasn't turned light in color, like the previous clutches did.


----------



## gilliusis

One question, what is the power and type of lighting in your terrarium ?!


----------



## frogface

I just have a cheap florescent tube. Daylight bulb, 6500 k, T8.


----------



## gilliusis

I have often heard that the light influences the frequency and quantity of eggs. All my personal terrariums are 5000 K light. All my females lay a fairly young age, often with a lot of eggs in each clutch. While some have difficulty with the same species. 
But here I speak of terribilis, no lorenzo. But light may also be important !?!


----------



## frogface

I do have a low light bulb that is for a fish tank. Not daylight. Has a blue hue. I can use that instead.

Anyone have any idea how much it would cost to ship Lorenzo froglets to gilliusis? Hundreds? Thousands? Legally, I mean. 

Just planning ahead for when I'm overrun with babies


----------



## gilliusis

If only it were possible, I would do it now !!!. It's funny you say that today, because I just asked one of my frogs provider, if he could do a special order for me . These frogs are importing from Central America ! (farm).
Very good change for your eggs, it looks good.


----------



## JeremyHuff

frogface said:


> I do have a low light bulb that is for a fish tank. Not daylight. Has a blue hue. I can use that instead.
> 
> Anyone have any idea how much it would cost to ship Lorenzo froglets to gilliusis? Hundreds? Thousands? Legally, I mean.
> 
> Just planning ahead for when I'm overrun with babies


Wouldn't be worth it for a couple froglets. Shipping, licenses, CITES permits, brokerage fees would be astronomical. Best shot would be to talk to a European importer who gets frogs from Sean Stewart and see if you can piggy-back a couple froglets on the order OR order them from Understory to be included in a European shipment.


----------



## frogface

The egg hasn't turned weird colors, so that's an improvement. He seems to be developing really slowly, though. Or maybe I'm just impatient 










edit: for comparison, here's a pic of a previous clutch at about the same stage of development


----------



## vivlover10

Congrats on the eggs Kris, I no these are especially important because they are your first frogs. These guys are my favorite tinc by far! Can't wait to see you being over run by froglets!


----------



## hypostatic

frogface said:


> Nooo don't shut up! I'm happy to have you on my thread
> 
> Things that have changed:
> 
> I took the male out for a week or so, then put him back in because he stopped eating (which freaked me out. I'd rather have him alive and well)
> 
> They got a new, thick coating of leaf litter in their tank.
> 
> They have been getting Vit A regularly, on a weekly basis (in addition to their Repashy Cal Plus. Will get some fresh Herptavite soon).
> 
> I made a temperature controlled incubator for the eggs.
> 
> (what am I forgetting, Bill?)
> 
> Stopped using treated tap water and switched to mild tad tea made with distilled.


That newest egg definitely looks better! I'd imagine that the vitamin A increase is one of the variable changes that is leading to better eggs.


----------



## frogface

I am finally ready to accept that this egg is just not developing. It looks the same as it did in the last picture, except the yolk is turning yellow 

Good news is that I definitely think it looks improved, as far as color and umm texture (the sack hasn't dissolved around him). I spruced up their tank a little, the other day and tonight they are kicking up their heels in the hut of love. 

Let me know if I'm boring you guys with these updates. Also, Richard, how are your eggs/tads doing? Don't worry about hurting my feelings if they are super tads about to morph out. I realize I have a fraction of your experience


----------



## frogfreak

Not boring at all, Kris. I've been lurking forever. 

A buddy of mine is going through the same thing and I'm rootin for both of you!


----------



## billschwinn

frogfreak said:


> Not boring at all, Kris. I've been lurking forever.
> 
> A buddy of mine is going through the same thing and I'm rootin for both of you!


Glenn, is your buddy doing Lorenzo as well?


----------



## frogfreak

Yes he is, Bill. Bad clutch after bad clutch...


----------



## hypostatic

As far as I'm concerned, the thread is just getting to the exciting part since the eggs' appearance is improving. So keep the updates coming!

Also, do you have a current pic of the egg?


----------



## frogface

By popular demand, here is the latest egg/tad thing:




























You can see that his sack is getting cloudy and his yolk is expanding and turning yellow.


----------



## frogfreak

Hey Kris,

Half the problem is solved. Your male is not shooting blanks!


----------



## hypostatic

Hmmm, well there definitely IS some development going on there. If the male was "shooting blanks" then we wouldn't see any development at all.

I think I remember reading that you were using methylene blue to combat mold? Have you tried using tadpole tea or blackwater extract?


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> Hmmm, well there definitely IS some development going on there. If the male was "shooting blanks" then we wouldn't see any development at all.
> 
> I think I remember reading that you were using methylene blue to combat mold? Have you tried using tadpole tea or blackwater extract?


I was using methylene blue but switched to tad tea. This egg was in tad tea only, until I accidentally picked up the sprayer with methylene blue to wet it down. So, it's tad tea with a little bit of methylene blue.

Bill thinks my girl doesn't have what it takes. But I"m not giving up on her yet.


----------



## billschwinn

Kris, have you gone back to using Herptavite as I previously suggested?


----------



## frogface

Yes! Just recently though. Maybe that will do the trick


----------



## cyberloach

I'm frogfreaks aka Glenn's friend. 
I have 5.1 tank of lorenzos. I've had these frogs for about a year and a half. I've got about 7-8 bad clutches so far they look very similar to your eggs on post #100 on page ten.
Mine are current in a cool down period to try and give her a break. 
Fingers crossed that things will improve


----------



## billschwinn

cyberloach said:


> I'm frogfreaks aka Glenn's friend.
> I have 5.1 tank of lorenzos. I've had these frogs for about a year and a half. I've got about 7-8 bad clutches so far they look very similar to your eggs on post #100 on page ten.
> Mine are current in a cool down period to try and give her a break.
> Fingers crossed that things will improve


Whose lineage are yours from?How old are they?Are you breeding pair or letting the group breed?


----------



## frogface

Here is last night's clutch. The dish was dry when I fished it out. Strange because I saw the male soaking in the water dish.


----------



## cyberloach

billschwinn said:


> Whose lineage are yours from?How old are they?Are you breeding pair or letting the group breed?


Sean Stewart, 2 years old, group breeding


----------



## frogface

Hi cyberloach. I'm glad you're here. Maybe we'll get it sorted out, eventually.


----------



## hypostatic

billschwinn said:


> Kris, have you gone back to using Herptavite as I previously suggested?


Did the switch to Herptavite happen before or after the recent visual improvement in the eggs? Also, whats your vit A supplementation schedule?


----------



## frogface

Herptivite was before this last clutch and after the one just before. I'm not sure this latest one got fertilized, though, since the petri dish was so dry. They have 2 huts. The clutch was in one hut, and dry. In the other hut, the petri dish was a little juicy but no eggs. Could be just because they hang out in that one. I don't know. But, I wonder if he fertilized one and she laid in the other. Is that possible or am I just making stuff up? 

They've been getting Vit A every weekend for around 2 months. I'm wondering if I should pull back on that to avoid OD.


----------



## gilliusis

I often have better results with the petri dish dry. The egg grows best in dry ! here Only personal information, this observation does not for lorenzo..


----------



## billschwinn

gilliusis said:


> I often have better results with the petri dish dry. The egg grows best in dry ! here Only personal information, this observation does not for lorenzo..


I find this to be important for all the darts I have bred before.


----------



## billschwinn

hypostatic said:


> Did the switch to Herptavite happen before or after the recent visual improvement in the eggs? Also, whats your vit A supplementation schedule?


I have used herptavite as my vitamin source for many years, prior to using it in the 80's I used Vionate and a little Nekton Rep.


----------



## frogface

billschwinn said:


> I find this to be important for all the darts I have bred before.


What do you mean? It's important to have a dry petri dish? Even after they have laid the clutch? 

I expected some, umm (thinking of a polite word lol), dampness from the fertilizing and watering and smashing the eggs around. However, this evening the eggs still looked good, so, we'll see.


----------



## frogface

All eggs have now gone bad.


----------



## billschwinn

frogface said:


> What do you mean? It's important to have a dry petri dish? Even after they have laid the clutch?
> 
> I expected some, umm (thinking of a polite word lol), dampness from the fertilizing and watering and smashing the eggs around. However, this evening the eggs still looked good, so, we'll see.


Dish dry and clean prior to laying.


----------



## Joshua's Exotics

That is Awesome man i cant wait till my (Sip) Tincs start laying eggs there my favorite.


----------



## frogface

You will, no doubt, have better luck. Sips are master baby makers


----------



## frogface

Nothing new. It's been cold around here for the past few days. All frogs are a little more reclusive, I guess with the weather change. House temps are about 5 or so degrees lower than usual. 

In the meantime, I was worrying about my male. As you may recall, he had stopped eating when he was in the temp tank. Now, with the frogs hiding out, they aren't eating as much and I can't get my eyeballs on them as easily. I caught him climbing up a piece of wood and snapped a pic, so I could make sure he wasn't getting skinny. Seems much easier to see them in pics. Anyway, turns out I was worrying for nothing. 

A pic just because they are so beautiful 

Here's my skinny little male


----------



## billschwinn

I have never seen one that skinny.


----------



## frogfreak

Hey Kris,

Maybe he can't fertilize because his belly is in the way...


----------



## frogface

LMAO! Maybe that's the real reason he takes a bath afterward. 

eta: I'm not trying to have fat Lorenzos. Their tank is just heavy with microfauna. I only feed them flies to make sure they are getting supplements.


----------



## hypostatic

Maybe he stopped eating because he swallowed a marble!


----------



## frogface

Update, latest tad.

He's about 2 weeks old and still in his sack. The sack is not disintegrating, though, so I guess that's a good sign. Also, he has a good shape. His tail is long and narrow, vs the shortened forked tails of the last tads. He and the yolk sack are too light in color and the yolk sack appears to be encased in a large bubble. Don't have high hopes for him but we'll see.

The frogs are being supplemented with herptivite, repashy calcuim plus, and, repashy Vit A.

The eggs now share their incubator with my Dubia roaches, which my tree frogs find to be delicious. Thank you Bullseye! 

Flash 


















No flash


----------



## hypostatic

You know, it seems that every time you post a picture the overall quality of the eggs/embryos improves =]

Is this the furthest in development that an embryo has gotten to?


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> You know, it seems that every time you post a picture the overall quality of the eggs/embryos improves =]
> 
> Is this the furthest in development that an embryo has gotten to?


It's hard to say. There were some others that may have been further along in development, but, I removed them from their sacks because they were breaking down. Also, look at their tails:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/666954-post58.html


----------



## Flying_Kip

I've been keeping Lorenzo's for about 4years now. Started out with 4 of them, one died while growing up, ended up with 2.1! Got about 150eggs from them then a male died. I ended up with 1.1 after their first breeding season. All eggs were bad, some started developping but most embryo sacks broke down and the tad inside the egg died.

Gave them a dry season with no breeding. In the next season with about 150-200eggs I got 4 eggs to develop into tads, 2 of them had SLS, 2 of them grew up to be big nice frogs. Then the female died. My two home bred Lorenzo's turned out to be 1.1 (how lucky am I?) So I got 2.1 at the moment who have now started breeding again, so far no change in breeding, the eggs keep going bad and when they start to develop, the embryo dies off after a week or a week and a half and the tad inside dies.

I used to dust my fly's every meal with Herpetal, recently I've started using Repashy Supervite and Calcium Plus (I switch between these every other meal)

Just my 2 cents (not much but hey not much good news to report),
Thomas


----------



## frogface

Thanks for the input 

This last tad is not looking good. The egg sack is separating from the tad and I haven't seen any movement in a while. I've been taking advantage of the cooler weather to give all of my frogs a bit of a cool down. Hopefully it will help.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Thomas

I strongly recommend you add vitamin A to the mix. Repashy recently developed a fine powder vitA that I use weekly. I have heard and witnessed that the addition of it will help with egg development. A friend of mine had the same issue as you for a year with yellow terribilis. He added vit A and this year has produced over 100 healthy froglets. 




Flying_Kip said:


> I've been keeping Lorenzo's for about 4years now. Started out with 4 of them, one died while growing up, ended up with 2.1! Got about 150eggs from them then a male died. I ended up with 1.1 after their first breeding season. All eggs were bad, some started developping but most embryo sacks broke down and the tad inside the egg died.
> 
> Gave them a dry season with no breeding. In the next season with about 150-200eggs I got 4 eggs to develop into tads, 2 of them had SLS, 2 of them grew up to be big nice frogs. Then the female died. My two home bred Lorenzo's turned out to be 1.1 (how lucky am I?) So I got 2.1 at the moment who have now started breeding again, so far no change in breeding, the eggs keep going bad and when they start to develop, the embryo dies off after a week or a week and a half and the tad inside dies.
> 
> I used to dust my fly's every meal with Herpetal, recently I've started using Repashy Supervite and Calcium Plus (I switch between these every other meal)
> 
> Just my 2 cents (not much but hey not much good news to report),
> Thomas


----------



## Flying_Kip

Thanks jeremy, but as I said I use Repashy Calcium plus and Supervite. This here is what Supervite contains: 

"Contains both Preformed Vitamin A and Beta Carotene
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Vitamin A 200,000 IU/lb, Vitamin D 20,000 IU/lb, Vitamin E 2,000 IU/lb, Vitamin K (Metadione) 30mg/lb, Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 2,500 mg/lb, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine HCL) 40 mg/lb, Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 70mg/lb, Vitamin B5 (Patothenic Acid) 130 mg/lb, Niacin 450 mg/lb, Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 55 mg/lb, Vitamin B12 .4 mg/lb, Folic Acid 20 mg/lb, Biotin 2 mg/lb, Choline 5,000 mg/lb, Beta Carotene 500 mg/lb."

I guess this is the Vitamin A you meant that repashy made? You probably missed that in my post?


----------



## hypostatic

I think he means the "Vitamin A Plus" supplement:
Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: Vitamin A Plus - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center

And this is what I understand you are using, "Supervite":
Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: SUPERVITE - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center

From my understanding Vit A + is specifically formulated for treating vitamin A deficiencies which can cause reproductive issues. "Prolonged over supplementation can lead to toxicity (Hypervitamintosis A) and overdose or kill your specimens."


----------



## JeremyHuff

Flying_Kip said:


> Thanks jeremy, but as I said I use Repashy Calcium plus and Supervite. This here is what Supervite contains:
> 
> "Contains both Preformed Vitamin A and Beta Carotene
> GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Vitamin A 200,000 IU/lb, Vitamin D 20,000 IU/lb, Vitamin E 2,000 IU/lb, Vitamin K (Metadione) 30mg/lb, Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 2,500 mg/lb, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine HCL) 40 mg/lb, Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 70mg/lb, Vitamin B5 (Patothenic Acid) 130 mg/lb, Niacin 450 mg/lb, Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 55 mg/lb, Vitamin B12 .4 mg/lb, Folic Acid 20 mg/lb, Biotin 2 mg/lb, Choline 5,000 mg/lb, Beta Carotene 500 mg/lb."
> 
> I guess this is the Vitamin A you meant that repashy made? You probably missed that in my post?


No, I didn't miss it. Repashy actually makes something called Vitamin A plus

Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL :: Vitamin A Plus - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center

I think you need a boost to get good eggs.


----------



## Flying_Kip

OK yeah sorry, seems like I missed something there. I'll give it a go, thanks for the hint!


----------



## Woodsman

Just to give folks an update on the 2.1 group of Lorenzos that I recently put together, the first clutch was bad, as were the next two clutches. I pulled a clutch of four eggs today and they look pretty good (I'll take a photo to post tomorrow). I have been using Repashy Calcium Plus and Superpig as supplements, but started adding the Repashy Vitamin A Plus today. Hopefully it will make a difference.

In order to test that it really is the quality of the female eggs that is the problem, I did a trial using one of the males and an adult, un-mated female Azureus. Within an hour of placing the two frogs together, they had laid a clutch that produced very good tadpoles. So I think we can say more certainly that the quality of the male sperm is not an issue.

Working together, we will hopefully crack the case of the recalcitrant Lorenzos!

Take care, Richard.


----------



## billschwinn

Not to rain on everyones parade, but I will once again say what I do, this is real complicated LOL! I use Herptavite Every feeding, daily, once a month provide a little Rep Cal, and I consider this my Silver Bullet, Folic Acid Powder dusted on the food for a couple weeks if I start getting more bad eggs than good ones.I am no scientist, just a old time frogger that likes to think outside the box. I am ending up with 50-75% eggs hatching. I am satisfied with my results , I just thought I would share what works for me, take care Bill . PS I would like to start seeing you post juvie pics soon, hope my method is given some thought, and not discounted without consideration.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Bill,
Where do you get the folic acid powder? 

I'll give it a shot with a few things.

J


----------



## billschwinn

I get it in capsule form at a local health food supermarket, literally it is a Huge health food store. To me , brand not to important, I use 60mcg capsules, pop a handfull open and then dust heavily. I also use it to give to frogs that despite everything right the show no interest in breeding, does nicely for that. So now all who try it let me know how it works, Bill


----------



## Woodsman

Thanks Bill. I don't think I remember you posting about the folic acid (I also don't pay the greatest attention sometimes), but will definitely give it a try with my frogs.

Richard.


----------



## hypostatic

billschwinn said:


> I use Herptavite Every feeding, daily, once a month provide a little Rep Cal, and I consider this my Silver Bullet, Folic Acid Powder dusted on the food for a couple weeks if I start getting more bad eggs than good ones.I am no scientist, just a old time frogger that likes to think outside the box.


Hmm, you know I also don't remember reading this in the posts.

But this strikes a very familiar chord with me, as folic acid deficiencies in human pregnancies can lead to neural tube defects like anencephaly, spina bifida, and encephalocele (don't look these up if you have a weak stomach...).

In addition, I remember that frogface posted that some of the developing tads had "thickened, curved, tails that look to be, almost, forked". Now that I've read about the folic acid dosing, I can't help but to see a connection...


----------



## billschwinn

hypostatic said:


> Hmm, you know I also don't remember reading this in the posts.
> 
> But this strikes a very familiar chord with me, as folic acid deficiencies in human pregnancies can lead to neural tube defects like anencephaly, spina bifida, and encephalocele (don't look these up if you have a weak stomach...).
> 
> In addition, I remember that frogface posted that some of the developing tads had "thickened, curved, tails that look to be, almost, forked". Now that I've read about the folic acid dosing, I can't help but to see a connection...


I do post on other forums occasionally, and I provide help many times one on one, I have advised the useage of this before to other breeders when asked what I would do it their situation. So I say oops if it was not posted here, but it is here now, I hope it helps a lot of frogs!


----------



## Flying_Kip

Well I asked my friend who imports the Repashy products to europa to look into sending some Vitamin A plus to me, so somewhere next week I should get them and start the cure. 

I'll keep you guys updated on how it works out, my Lorenzo are currently on a breeding-break for another month or so (been in dry-period for about 2months now). 
If I don't get any better results by the end of the summer I'll give bill's suggestion a try. Won't be trying 2 things at the same time, if it works we wouldn't really know what did the trick eventually.


----------



## frogface

Bill did tell me about the folic acid but I haven't used it regularly. The stuff I got was a much higher dose than what he recommends so I've been reluctant to give it to them. I've been using the Repashy Vit A for a few months, so, I'll get the recommended folic acid to add and report back.


----------



## frogfreak

What dose is recommended?

Best


----------



## billschwinn

frogfreak said:


> What dose is recommended?
> 
> Best


When I used it on my animals the flies were dusted in the powder, there really was not a dose per say, and I am only saying what worked for me and my frogs, Bill


----------



## frogfreak

frogface said:


> The stuff I got was a much higher dose than what he recommends so I've been reluctant to give it to them.


Kris wrote this, Bill. I'm assuming that means strength maybe and not dose?


----------



## billschwinn

frogfreak said:


> Kris wrote this, Bill. I'm assuming that means strength maybe and not dose?


Glenn , I do beleive that was the strength of the capsules she purchased and not dose. Bill


----------



## hypostatic

So some quotes/links on the subject:

"The recommended daily allowance of folic acid during pregnancy is 400 to 800 mcg/day. Some experts recommend daily doses of 1 mg for twin pregnancies. The Centers of Disease Control (CDC) in the US have recommended 4 mg/day of folic acid at least 4 weeks BEFORE conception through the first 3 months of pregnancy for women who have had an infant or fetus with a neural tube defect and 400 mcg/day for all women of childbearing age."
Folic acid Use During Pregnancy and Breastfeeding | Drugs.com

So according to the following site, the average weight for a white, 30 year old female is ~63kg. (this was the only graph of the sort that I could find - not trying to cater to any demographic.) I figured that 30 is the median childbearing age for people, so its a good age to chose for our purposes.
Average womens Weight chart

Soo some calculation yield that the average pregnant woman should be getting ~6.3ug/kg of folic acid per day. For the women that had previous prenatal neural tube defects it recommends 10x as much folic acid, 63ug/kg. 

"Males can weigh up to about 3.8 grams. Females, which are larger, may weigh as much as 6.5 grams."
Philadelphia Zoo - Dyeing poison dart frog
So I don't know how big your female is, but assuming she's lying in the middle of those two data points she's ~5.15g.

A little stoichiometry and your frog should be getting somewhere between 0.032ug and .32ug per day of folic acid.

This is all assuming that frogs would respond to the same concentration per body mass as humans do.... Maybe Ed knows more about this subject and can comment on it. Now to use my summoning powers....


----------



## frogface

frogfreak said:


> Kris wrote this, Bill. I'm assuming that means strength maybe and not dose?


Yes, sorry, I meant strength.


----------



## Flying_Kip

So I just ordered my Repashy Vitamin A plus, my Lorenzo's are housed in a big display cage together with 4 imitator 'Jeberos'. Should I feed them with the vit. A+ once a week or could I get away with giving them a few more feeds for the first 2 weeks (let's say 2-3times a week).
The jeberos will get some of it aswell can't chase them away each time they get to a fly with some Vit.A+, shouldn't I be to worried about poisoning the Jeberos?


----------



## frogface

What about feeding a larger food that the imitators can't eat but the Lorenzos will?


----------



## JeremyHuff

I suspect it is the female that will need it more than the males. You could remove the female for a few weeks and feed her the VitA a few times a week. You can feed the male(s) and imitator Vit A 1 time a week. Separating the female would also give her a chance to build up her resources for her next clutch.


----------



## hypostatic

So are you planning to supplement the folic acid to the Lorenzos? Do you know what method you'll be using to do this?


----------



## Flying_Kip

@hypostatic: if you are asking me this, I don't plan on giving them folic acid atm (bill's suggestion). First I'm going to try with a Vit.A cure (Repashy Vit. A+).

@JeremyHuff: I don't like taking out animals when it's not really needed, the males have always been in the same cage as the female so their vit. A levels won't be much different. 


I think I'll leave her in the big tank and try to drop a few flies at a time before her nose so she get's some more and just stick with feeding all the frogs in the big tank with Vit.A+ from repashy once a week and just keeps swapping between Calcium ICB and Supervite for the remainder of the days like I do now. 
She's the most active & boldest of them all so 'target'-feeding her won't be that hard, just a little more time onces a week when feeding from my side but that isn't a real issue.


----------



## gilliusis

Hello frogface,
My 6 small lorenzo, are arriving. I went to look in germany for 26 hours driving 1200 miles ! They go, they have 3 months! I am very happy to finally have ! Good luck with yours! I still listen to your messages.


----------



## frogface

Yay!! Congratulations!!! They are beautiful


----------



## gilliusis

thank you. I hope a lot with them ! 
And you, what news have you ?


----------



## frogface

Another clutch of bad eggs, last week. I've added folic acid to their supplements, as Bill Schwinn suggested. They are in the coco hut now


----------



## billschwinn

frogface said:


> Another clutch of bad eggs, last week. I've added folic acid to their supplements, as Bill Schwinn suggested. They are in the coco hut now


Hooray! I guess we will see over your next few clutches if it will help, I hope it does.


----------



## hypostatic

frogface said:


> Another clutch of bad eggs, last week. I've added folic acid to their supplements, as Bill Schwinn suggested. They are in the coco hut now


how are you supplementing it?


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> how are you supplementing it?


I haven't been able to find a low strength capsule like Bill has. So, I have higher strength tablets that I crushed into powder. I just used a tiny bit in with the flies. So far, only one time, since we started talking about it on January 28th. I'm still looking for a lower strength product.

Bill, how often do you use the folic acid?


----------



## billschwinn

frogface said:


> I haven't been able to find a low strength capsule like Bill has. So, I have higher strength tablets that I crushed into powder. I just used a tiny bit in with the flies. So far, only one time, since we started talking about it on January 28th. I'm still looking for a lower strength product.
> 
> Bill, how often do you use the folic acid?


I dust the flies thoroughly with the powder. Under normal circumstances I will use it maybe once a month. If I feel it would possibly help in problem cases like your Lorenzo I have used it 2 times a week for a couple weeks.


----------



## frogface

Quick update. No eggs or tads, atm.

I've been following Bill's supplement suggestion. I've also separated the pair, again, since the eggs were not getting better. It's been about 3 weeks now, and, they have adjusted to being on their own a lot better, this time.


----------



## sampson1269

I just got hooked on this thread this morning and had to read it all, good luck and i hope you find a solution on the eggs.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Kris,

Richard's pair finally had a good tadpole and the following clutch of 7 was developing well and he may have free swimming tads from that by now as well. He had added the Vit A from Repashy a few weeks earlier. He and I are going to try the folic acid as well for a few things.


----------



## frogface

Great news! Hey Richard, how about some pics 

My pair are still 'on a break.' I'm moving my frog room to a different room in my house and am going to wait until, at least, then to re-introduce them. I'll let you know how it goes. As for now, they are both eating well and appear to be healthy and relaxed.


----------



## MSteele

frogface 
picture of my little guy. these guys are easy to breed but hard to get any good babies. i want to say that maybe 20-30% of my eggs live to Tads and only maybe half of those Morph out. i have 3 babies out of teh water and looking good.


----------



## frogface

Beautiful! Thanks for posting!


----------



## frogface

Well it's been a while. They've gone through a separation and multiple clutches of bad eggs. One recent clutch was 12 eggs! I thought at least one of those would be good. The eggs look good on day one, but, within a couple days, they develop a white spot on top and then become mottled and die.

Most recent clutch of 4 and one of them did the 'mottled' thing by the first day. The 3 remaining eggs still look good, at day 3. Here is a picture of the parents, hopefully plotting another clutch, and, a pic of the current clutch of 3. 

Sorry for the wet glass. Had just given them a light mist and didn't want to open the lid and interrupt them 









When I use my magnifying glass, I think I see development. Or could just be wishful thinking.


----------



## fieldnstream

Keep on truckin Kris! I know you will have great news to report soon, in the mean time you get to enjoy those gorgeous frogs


----------



## frogface

Huh! The color still looks good. No white spot and mottling, yet. No swelling up. No tiny tads yet either.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Kris, are you usuing any color supplements? That yellow/orange looks awesome.

John


----------



## frogface

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Kris, are you usuing any color supplements? That yellow/orange looks awesome.
> 
> John


Nope. Just whatever is in the Repashy Calcium Plus.


----------



## WendySHall

So how are they doing today, Kris? Usually by day 5 you can see the ridge in the developing egg.

(hoping...hoping...hoping!)


----------



## frogface

WendySHall said:


> So how are they doing today, Kris? Usually by day 5 you can see the ridge in the developing egg.
> 
> (hoping...hoping...hoping!)


I decided not to look this morning. It's like trying to sleep when you're waiting for Santa, lol. Tonight I'll grab my magnifying glass


----------



## ChrisK

Eventually they'll get it going if they are breeding, aren't sterile and you're supplementing the right way - I had a pair of adult frogs lay TONS of bad eggs for more than 6 months straight before seeing any tads in the clutches.


----------



## fieldnstream

frogface said:


> Nope. Just whatever is in the Repashy Calcium Plus.


Hey Kris, I have plenty of Superpig...I'm more than willing to share if you would like me to send you some.


----------



## hypostatic

From what I recall Cal+ is like 6% superpig, so unless your frogs have really washed out colors in the reds/yellows/oranges I don't think additional supplementation would be required


----------



## JeremyHuff

frogface said:


> Huh! The color still looks good. No white spot and mottling, yet. No swelling up. No tiny tads yet either.
> 
> View attachment 29892


Kris,
I think you should start all over. Send Richard and I the pair and we will send you some tadpoles so you can start fresh.


----------



## frogface

JeremyHuff said:


> Kris,
> I think you should start all over. Send Richard and I the pair and we will send you some tadpoles so you can start fresh.


Ahahaha! Hahaha! <gasp> haha! NEVAR! 

Hey, we should swap froglets at some point, to shake the genes up a little. Just a very little, I suppose, though lol.


----------



## fieldnstream

hypostatic said:


> From what I recall Cal+ is like 6% superpig, so unless your frogs have really washed out colors in the reds/yellows/oranges I don't think additional supplementation would be required


Supplementation for color is never required...but you are right, there is superpig in Cal+, some people just prefer to use a little more


----------



## JeremyHuff

frogface said:


> Ahahaha! Hahaha! <gasp> haha! NEVAR!
> 
> Hey, we should swap froglets at some point, to shake the genes up a little. Just a very little, I suppose, though lol.


Definitely. Richard just traded off my male for a female so he has a second pair going now. Don't think they have produced yet.


----------



## jeeperrs

frogface said:


> I decided not to look this morning. It's like trying to sleep when you're waiting for Santa, lol. Tonight I'll grab my magnifying glass


In the Josh's Frogs blogs they have photos of the egg development. It seems that it takes at least 4-5 days before you see the tail even begin to emerge. I kept worrying and finally saw the tails starting today. 

I hope Santa comes soon for you


----------



## frogface

fieldnstream said:


> Supplementation for color is never required...but you are right, there is superpig in Cal+, some people just prefer to use a little more


These guys have had bright yellow all along. That's one of the things I love about them. Their bodies are so dark and their crowns are so bright. They step into the shadow and all you see is a glowy yellow pointy nose.


----------



## frogface

jeeperrs said:


> In the Josh's Frogs blogs they have photos of the egg development. It seems that it takes at least 4-5 days before you see the tail even begin to emerge. I kept worrying and finally saw the tails starting today.
> 
> I hope Santa comes soon for you


Hah, yes, for normal development. There's been nothing normal about these frog's eggs. It keeps things interesting though!

In other words, it's not that I'm looking for them developing as much as it's that I'm looking for them not developing. If that makes sense


----------



## jeeperrs

frogface said:


> Hah, yes, for normal development. There's been nothing normal about these frog's eggs. It keeps things interesting though!
> 
> In other words, it's not that I'm looking for them developing as much as it's that I'm looking for them not developing. If that makes sense


I completely understand. LOL


----------



## WendySHall

At least they weren't looking bad from day one. In the last picture, they still looked nice and dark...that's a good sign! 

(Patiently waiting to see what you find...)


----------



## frogface

Tonight's update! Look, be glad it's not 20 min updates, lol. Anyway, the eggs look beautiful! No tiny tads that I can see. Not even with the magnifying glass. Wendy, you remember how swollen and yellow they used to get?


----------



## jeeperrs

What is the temperature in your house?


----------



## hypostatic

Yeah, this is definitely an improvement!


----------



## billschwinn

jeeperrs said:


> What is the temperature in your house?


Good question, what are the temps?Also, the middle egg looks enlarged, I am suspect of that.


----------



## frogface

The house temp is around 70 during the day. A little higher in the frog room, due to tank lights and it being a small room. At night it does dip down to around 65. I'll grab my thermometer tonight and see about tracking actual temps. 

I'm moving them back to the larger room, hopefully this weekend, where temps are easier to control.


----------



## frogface

Lift off! 

The eggs are still nice and black in natural light. I have light coming up from below to show the development, and, also used flash. All 3 eggs are showing tad development. 

And we have a rain storm coming through today. I'll be looking for another clutch tonight.


----------



## WendySHall

Whoooo! Hooooo! 

We ended up with company last night and I didn't get to check again. I found myself wondering about this while they were here. (lol!)

They're looking good! Hopefully the folic acid did the trick!


----------



## frogface

Here’s what changed recently (Bill’s going to like this  )

I had the male and female separated. The female continued to be supplemented with Vit A and folic acid. Also, I began running low on Repashy Calcium+, so all frogs were getting Herptivite alternated with Repashy. The Lorenzos were already getting some Herptivite. Then I ran completely out of Repashy, so the frogs were getting only Herptivite and Calcium w/D3 supplements for several weeks. 

Replenished the Repashy at our recent local show but I think I’ll make sure to keep fresh Herptivite on hand, too, and continue to alternate them frequently, with the Lorenzos, just in case.


----------



## stevenhman

Huzzah!

Aww... I remember the day you got the male, it was the first time I met you and you were so super excited about getting him (just 'it' then IIRC) and only stayed around for like 5 minutes - hahaha. Only ~1.5 years til I'm back in NC!


----------



## frogface

stevenhman said:


> Huzzah!
> 
> Aww... I remember the day you got the male, it was the first time I met you and you were so super excited about getting him (just 'it' then IIRC) and only stayed around for like 5 minutes - hahaha. Only ~1.5 years til I'm back in NC!


Yup, I remember. I couldn't get out of there fast enough! Wanted to get my babies home. It was actually 2 of them. They both turned out to be male so one was traded for the female I have now.

It's like you're 'Uncle Steven' LOL.


----------



## hypostatic

frogface said:


> Here’s what changed recently (Bill’s going to like this  )
> 
> I had the male and female separated. The female continued to be supplemented with Vit A and folic acid. Also, I began running low on Repashy Calcium+, so all frogs were getting Herptivite alternated with Repashy. The Lorenzos were already getting some Herptivite. Then I ran completely out of Repashy, so the frogs were getting only Herptivite and Calcium w/D3 supplements for several weeks.
> 
> Replenished the Repashy at our recent local show but I think I’ll make sure to keep fresh Herptivite on hand, too, and continue to alternate them frequently, with the Lorenzos, just in case.


What is your folic acid supplementation schedule like? Also I've been wondering how/what you have been using to supplement folic acid.


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> What is your folic acid supplementation schedule like? Also I've been wondering how/what you have been using to supplement folic acid.


The folic acid I have is 800 mg, vs the 60 that Bill recommended. So, she's been getting only a tiny bit of that 2 or so times a week. It's human grade folic acid purchased from GNC or something. Came in tablet form that I crushed into powder. 

I don't know which of the supplements are doing it, but, the egg sacks are nice and strong.


----------



## hypostatic

Have you been crushing the tablets with one of these? 









Are you supplementing by coating the FFs with that directly? Or are you mixing it in with the herptivite?


----------



## frogface

I usually use it alone.


----------



## frogface

Well they made it through the day. Still looking good. A little more pronounced development but not enough for show-and-tell pics. 

I'll post pics again when they have tails or if they take a turn for the worse.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Just like a woman, make us wait and beg for more!

John


----------



## frogface

You been hanging around with the wrong women!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

The Beach Boys nailed it Kris....

''and the Southern girls with the way they talk, they knock me out when I`m down there"

John


----------



## frogface

Ok this one's for John


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Atta Girl!

John


----------



## billschwinn

Wow! I am glad your work is finally showing more succes. Will you be having a thread to Name that Lorenzo?


----------



## frogface

billschwinn said:


> Wow! I am glad your work is finally showing more succes. Will you be having a thread to Name that Lorenzo?


I'm going to name the first one Billy


----------



## billschwinn

Oh Boy! A few more letters added so I can post.


----------



## jeeperrs

frogface said:


> I'm going to name the first one Billy


I think I am watching your eggs more than mine. I hope the first one you name is a boy, or all the other frogs may make fun of her with a name like "Billy". LOL


----------



## frogface

Hehehe, Little Billy, named after her great-grandpappy 

The eggs still looked good this morning. I'll take a pic, tonight, for John


----------



## jeeperrs

Do we get new pictures tomorrow? 

At first I thought all my eggs were going to be baby boys, then I realized it was just their tail ha-ha (that is a joke people)


----------



## frogface

I think Bill is right about the egg in the center. It has a head developing but seems to be missing a tail, as compared to his siblings. There is a small lump coming up from the center of the egg which might be a weird tail of some sort.

I think they're about to start wiggling. Here they are in silhouette:









Here they are with some light:











eta: I was waiting to post them in tandem with a new clutch. Turns out that the parents weren't actually laying eggs in the hut. They were just fooling around in there


----------



## hypostatic

So do you think it was the folic acid that contributed to a better clutch this time? Or maybe the frogs are just more experienced?


----------



## frogface

I have no idea. I wouldn't think it was experience, since they've gave me clutches that were fertilized and started development, from the start. I'm inclined to think it has more to do with supplements. Which ones? I think your comparison with Spina bifida, and, the previous tads weird tails, was interesting.


----------



## frogface

Uh oh, I don't think they're going to make it 

They are way behind in development and their yolk sacks are starting to swell and lighten. Rats! Well, I'm not discouraged, yet. This clutch was very promising. Hopefully they'll keep getting better.

Let me know what you think:


----------



## fieldnstream

Aw dang Kris, thats no bueno. Seems like they are improving with each clutch...got my fingers crossed the next clutch goes even better for ya!


----------



## jeeperrs

Maybe the boy needs to start wearing some boxer shorts instead of tight whites  Seriously, I am still hoping for you. I am sorry for you if they don't make it.


----------



## hypostatic

Maybe more folic acid would help them keep improving?


----------



## hypostatic

Oh, I just came across this website, and although old, it might have some useful info that could relate to your problem



> It became apparent that our adults were producing less viable eggs. Hatch rate had dropped to around 20% and the diameter of the eggs had reduced greatly. Therefore our next line of approach was to expose the parent stock to UV to see if this would result in healthier eggs being laid.
> 
> Adults were exposed to 20 minutes UV once a fortnight during feeding times to ensure exposure. Each clutch of eggs laid was monitored and after the fourth clutch the eggs had increased in size and hatching rates had increased to 95%. In 1991 we stopped using the Actinic 09 striplight and started using the WOTAN ultra vitalux, a 300-watt UV reflector bulb. The guidelines for use of this bulb are 15 minutes of exposure from a distance of 45cm for frogs and tadpoles once a month.


Dendrobates azureus

This is mostly about avoiding SLS, but according to the website UV also helps in egg production/development.


----------



## frogface

Interesting! I'll give that a try.


----------



## frogface

Ok I tried it out. Had to stand guard by the open lid. They didn't much like me hanging around. Took some pics. Not pictured is the male sticking his nose out of the hut so that nothing but his nose was in the light. Also, the female sitting in a spot behind the wood, where a small beam of light was coming through. Don't know if this was coincidental or if they were seeking out the UV while remaining hidden from me. 

Next step is to rig up some sort of screen to put over the open lid so I can leave them alone. I switched to the smaller lamp so that I could wedge it into the lid opening and not have to stand there holding it. And, I did stand there for 20 min. I love my frogs


----------



## hypostatic

I wasn't expecting for the radiation to be administered that quickly haha.

This also reminds me of member mworks and his UV dosing schedule. I believe the talk about it starts here:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/51694-my-new-histrionicus-9.html

I think it's interesting that his frogs actually come out and "sunbathe" when he turns the UV light on. Or maybe the frogs are just expecting some flies because someone approached the viv haha.


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> I wasn't expecting for the radiation to be administered that quickly haha.
> 
> This also reminds me of member mworks and his UV dosing schedule. I believe the talk about it starts here:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/51694-my-new-histrionicus-9.html
> 
> I think it's interesting that his frogs actually come out and "sunbathe" when he turns the UV light on. Or maybe the frogs are just expecting some flies because someone approached the viv haha.


Hah! I am ready to try anything! Well, short of anything invasive. Or at least, short of most things invasive, lol. 

I remember mwork's thread and found it very interesting then. Of course I forgot all about it until I read your previous post and I recalled that his frogs seemed to come out to bathe in the light and then retreat after a bit. Might as well give it a shot.


----------



## frogface

Look! One of them is still developing! 

I hadn't looked at them since the last pictures were taken. It made me sad. Tonight, I pulled out the petri dish to prepare them for burial and one of them is still going! He is moving a lot. Not just twitching but wiggling and flipping around. 

The yolk sack looks a little big but the tail looks normal. Doesn't it?


----------



## frogface

Too add; remember in previous posts that their egg sacks were breaking down early? Now, even though 2 of them are clearly not going to develop, the egg sack is still tough and intact. Something is going right.


----------



## hypostatic

Hmm I think you should keep them all, just in case.


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> Hmm I think you should keep them all, just in case.


Yea, that's what I decided to do. I separated them to remove the other 2 and then thought about it and left them alone. They are still alive. Just sort of mutant looking.


----------



## JeremyHuff

frogface said:


> They are still alive. Just sort of mutant looking.


Maybe these will be the "Black Ghost" morph of Lorenzo...


----------



## frogface

He has her laying eggs, right out in the open in the leaf litter. She hates being out in the open. I think it's payback from this morning. I'll explain after I take a picture of whatever they leave me in the umm leaves.


----------



## frogface

JeremyHuff said:


> Maybe these will be the "Black Ghost" morph of Lorenzo...


If the other two come back to life, I'm starting the 'Zombie' morph.


----------



## jeeperrs

frogface said:


> If the other two come back to life, I'm starting the 'Zombie' morph.


If they come back to life I am getting out of the hobby.


----------



## frogface

Leaf babies:


----------



## jeeperrs

frogface said:


> Leaf babies:


That looks like a larger clutch. Can you tell us how many good looking eggs are in there?


----------



## frogface

Can't really tell. They're covered with muddy frog foot prints. Looks like 4 or 5 eggs, including one that's off to the side. The other one off to the side appears to be just a blob of jelly. I added some water so maybe they'll clean off a bit.


----------



## frogface

Looks like only one of them might be good. Possibly none of them


----------



## Finchfrogs15

ive been stalking this thread for a while just sitting back and reading everyones comments and looking at the cool pictures. but, im really pulling for you and your lorenzos. they are beautiful frogs and good luck with them! I know theyll get it right very soon


----------



## frogface

Finchfrogs15 said:


> ive been stalking this thread for a while just sitting back and reading everyones comments and looking at the cool pictures. but, im really pulling for you and your lorenzos. they are beautiful frogs and good luck with them! I know theyll get it right very soon


Thank you! I really feel like they are very close


----------



## JeremyHuff

frogface said:


> Thank you! I really feel like they are very close


Kris, I don't think they are close at all...the offer is still there if you want to start fresh with some tadpoles...


----------



## frogface

I moved the tad from the egg sack yesterday, because, it looked like the sack was starting to deflate and the tad didn't appear ready to break out.

Now, it's in a petri dish with some water and is still alive. Good news is that there are gills. This is the first tad that I've been able to see the development of gills before it died.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Kris

You know I joke....Good luck and I know you will start having regular success soon.


----------



## frogface

Still hanging in there. Looks like the gills are getting smaller. Yolk is still big. Tail is not weird and forked like the previous ones. 































JeremyHuff said:


> Kris
> 
> You know I joke....Good luck and I know you will start having regular success soon.


But of course!


----------



## gilliusis

It seems that he want it live ! Let's cross our fingers !


----------



## Woodsman

Hi Kris,

It was a very good idea to pull the tadpole out of the egg to save it. I have definitely noticed that the membranes are prone to mold before the tad is fully developed. I have been taking the good tadpoles this way for a while now and have more than a dozen thriving tadpoles (I'll add some photos tomorrow).

Good luck again, Richard.


----------



## whitethumb

good luck man, just read this whole threat and sorry that things didn't work out for you yet. im thinking of getting my hands on some lorenzos. i love the ones with spots on the sides.


----------



## frogface

No no no! Look what they're doing. Going inside a piece of wood with a narrow tunnel in it. I'll never be able to steal those eggs. 

They started out here and I wasn't happy but figured I could still reach the eggs. 








I think they realized the same and moved to the wood with the secret tunnel. 








What you can't see in the pic is his ass end just inside the tunnel as he calls her to follow him 








Here she is, acting all innocent 








Oh well, maybe it's for the best. I won't be able to obsess over them if I can't see them. I'll drop a few containers of water in there, just in case.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Kris you know because you won't be able to pull those eggs every one of them will be fertile and develop.
Murphy's law, Murphy was definitely a frogger.


----------



## srrrio

You never know the extra humidity, different tannins or something just might be the trick ..but Rusty is right, Murphy's Law sounds the most promising.


----------



## billschwinn

Kris, judging by your last post you need a vacation!


----------



## JeremyHuff

Slurpee straw with the spoon-like end Kris. Great for snagging eggs out of reach.


----------



## frogface

JeremyHuff said:


> Slurpee straw with the spoon-like end Kris. Great for snagging eggs out of reach.


Well, it seems she couldn't squeeze her fat egg belly in there. It was fun to watch her try though 

Now they are looking for a spot and don't seem to be able to agree. She keeps trying to go into the huts and he keeps bringing her back outside to the leaves. He's been doing his part all over the place, so, wherever the eggs end up, they should be good and fertilized, lol.


----------



## frogface

Fresh from the hut (what is that thing in there? lol ):



















Egg/tad is still alive. Tail is getting weird and he doesn't really swim around. There are a couple bugs and a leaf in there to chew on but I haven't seen any poo. Put in a tiny bit of flake food tonight, just in case he's hungry. The water is very shallow because I don't think he'd be able to swim up far to the surface. pics:




























Look at his belly. Any ideas? I was thinking it was organ swelling from Vit A deficiency (Ed talked about abdominal swelling). Dunno. 



















Poor little guy. I'm torn between euthanizing now and waiting to see how/if he develops.


----------



## gilliusis

I let him live for the moment, without feeding him. Another week, if he is still alive after I feed him !
Increases the temperature !?
This is only my opinion and not an order..


----------



## frogface

Interesting. Or maybe just coincidence.

I have a small UV bulb over my tree frog tank. They are still in a temp container while I finish up their new build. Anyway, I put the petri dish with the tad in it, on top of the tree frog container. Took off the top and positioned it so that part of it was getting light from the UV bulb and the other part was not, with the tad in the part that was not under the UV. Tad moved to the UV part of the petri. Maybe he meant to or maybe he drifted that way and couldn't get back 









The newest clutch of eggs is already not looking good, so I stuck them under the UV too, just to see.


----------



## frogface

He moved back to the shaded area. Hmm. The pic shown is not the actual position. It's more halfway behind the PVC (the black cylinder which is really white PVC) with more pronounced 'light' and 'dark' areas. 

I moved him back into his regular place, and, will put him back out there tomorrow to see what he does.

eta: Look at this site (I can't read it but the pics are nice) http://www.tinctorius.ch/index.php?id=12 that I got from this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/82978-first-deposition.html


----------



## hypostatic

It's been almost a week! any updates?


----------



## frogface

Yesterday I checked on tadlet. He wasn't moving and there was no indication that he'd been eating. He looked much the same as before. I jostled the dish and he broke in half. 

Better news is that I pulled a new clutch, just tonight. Hoping, hoping.


----------



## hypostatic

I've got my fingers crossed for you!


----------



## frogface

Here we go again. Day 2 of latest clutch. Two eggs went bad right away and have been removed. The remaining three look good so far.


----------



## billschwinn

I think you will start getting better eggs at this point, after getting all the duds out.


----------



## WendySHall

frogface said:


> I jostled the dish and he broke in half.


OMG! I am so sorry!

It is so frustrating, isn't it? I'm still having problems with my BYHs. I think things have just continually worsened since adding the Vit A and then the Folic Acid. I'm ready to trash everything except the Calcium Plus and just leave them be happy frogs.


----------



## scusemelittleoldlady

Out of curiosity, what's the justification for pulling eggs before they're fully developed? I'm pretty sure male tinctorius 'attend' egg clutches. And although I'm not familiar with any studies that look at the specific benefits of egg attendance in this species, it has been suggested in other amphibians that in addition to keeping eggs hydrated, egg attendance may actually prevent fungal infections. This could be a result of either anti-fungal compounds produced by the frogs, or the parents physically cleaning the eggs and even eating dead/infected eggs. Is it possible that the eggs would be better off with their dads?


----------



## frogface

I can try leaving the eggs in the tank. Got snails though. If it turns out that leaving them in the tank is a good idea, I can make the Lorenzos a new, snail free, tank. 

Here are the eggs today. So far still looking good. 



















eta: day 5 (so I can keep track  )


----------



## jeeperrs

Those eggs are looking good so far!


----------



## scusemelittleoldlady

frogface said:


> I can try leaving the eggs in the tank. Got snails though.


Ooh, okay. Good to know, I have snails too. Keep in mind, I don't have experience breeding frogs (yet) so I really have no idea what I'm talking about.


----------



## Woodsman

Hi Kris and Lorenzo lovers everywhere,

I just wanted to add some photos of the breeding I have been having with one of my Lorenzo pairs since adding the Repashy Vitamin A to their diet. 

They produce mixed clutches still and, if I don't remove the tads early, they mold over and kill the tadpoles. So, I use a single egde razor blade to remove the tads at as advanced an age as I can get them (see clutch photo) and seperate them into sections of screw containers (as I do for all my tadpoles. 

This has been successful so far and I have about 18 tadpoles going and two about ready to metamorphose.

Take care, Richard.


----------



## frogface

Day 7. Tads are forming! Nothing is swelling up or turning yellow. This is it, guys, this is it! I just know it. And, if it's not it, it's almost it!


----------



## frogface

Woodsman said:


> Hi Kris and Lorenzo lovers everywhere,
> 
> I just wanted to add some photos of the breeding I have been having with one of my Lorenzo pairs since adding the Repashy Vitamin A to their diet.
> 
> They produce mixed clutches still and, if I don't remove the tads early, they mold over and kill the tadpoles. So, I use a single egde razor blade to remove the tads at as advanced an age as I can get them (see clutch photo) and seperate them into sections of screw containers (as I do for all my tadpoles.
> 
> This has been successful so far and I have about 18 tadpoles going and two about ready to metamorphose.
> 
> Take care, Richard.


Thank you! 

eta: Funny. I have screw containers for my tads too. Not used yet but soon.


----------



## frogface

Sorry y'all, this is where I start giving daily updates 

Day umm 8. This clutch seems to be developing a lot faster than the last one. The eggs are still dark and it is difficult to see the tads with the naked eye (my naked eye, anyway), so, I used a flash on these pics. The flash washes out the eggs but you can see the tads forming.





















Come back tomorrow for Day 9


----------



## frogface

Day 8 and 1/2 Hahaha!


----------



## goof901

looking great!!!! these should be the ones


----------



## jeeperrs

Anything that comes in 3's has to be good. All 3 eggs look great!


----------



## hypostatic

Haha you should set up a stand to do a time lapse


----------



## frogface

I decided to try nuking them with a UV bulb, again. I like to think they are basking in the rays. On the other hand, they might just be hunting bugs  


pics


----------



## goof901

i was expecting a day 9 update....


----------



## frogface

goof901 said:


> i was expecting a day 9 update....


LOL well since there was a day 8 and 1/2 update, I thought I'd wait until day 9 and 1/2.


----------



## frogface

Day 9 and 1/2. One of them is definitely starting to swell a little. Not sure about the others. This might not be it. Though they do seem to still be developing. 

With flash









Without flash


----------



## jeeperrs

That is how all mine looked. I now have 13 tads. My fingers are crossed!


----------



## fieldnstream

Almost there Kris! I just know you will have success soon!


----------



## goof901

how are they doing?


----------



## gilliusis

These are the three musketeers, they are strong, and will become frogs beautiful !


----------



## goof901

Day 14 update?


----------



## frogface

LOL ok, ok. Tonight. I took pics and made a post, yesterday or Tuesday, but, it was eaten by Dendroboard. The three tads look like they are doing the same thing as the last clutch, with one continuing to develop and two getting swollen and strange.


----------



## frogface

Day 14:

with flash









without flash









They laid a clutch of 5 eggs this past weekend but all went bad pretty fast.


----------



## Woodsman

Hi Kris,

I would extract the three embryos at this point and raise them in some aged water. The tad on the left looks good to me and the other two could improve with this treatment.

Hope all goes well, Richard


----------



## frogface

Ok here they are.

From L to R, tads 1, 2, and 3









Tad 1 (can see gills)








Tad 2








Tad 3


----------



## Woodsman

Good work Kris. I think this gives the best chance to see how far they can develop, without the extra burden of any deficiencies that might be related to the egg-case.

Fingers crossed! Richard.


----------



## hypostatic

Hey I don't remember if you stated this before or not, but have you ever tried using methylene blue on the eggs?


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> Hey I don't remember if you stated this before or not, but have you ever tried using methylene blue on the eggs?


Yup. meth blue, no meth blue, tad tea, no tad tea, distilled, spring, tap. They've had it all. 

Update: tads 1 and 2 are gone. 3 is still alive but with a swollen belly and crooked tail. 

I gave the female a delicious Vit A ff snack right after she laid the last clutch, hoping it would help with the next batch of eggs to come. They should lay a clutch today.


----------



## hypostatic

you know, the weird looking tails still says neural tube defect to me (and I should note that I'm not an expert on this haha). Do you think the egg/tads increased after you started supplementing folic acid? if you supplemented more do you think they would improve more?


----------



## frogface

hypostatic said:


> you know, the weird looking tails still says neural tube defect to me (and I should note that I'm not an expert on this haha). Do you think the egg/tads increased after you started supplementing folic acid? if you supplemented more do you think they would improve more?


I don't know but I'll try it.


----------



## Woodsman

My frogs started producing good tadpoles just by adding the Repashy Vitamin A to the Calcium Plus and Superpig. I haven't needed to add the Folic Acid seperately. It might be better to only add one additional suppliment at a time and check its efficacy before moving on to others.

Just a thought, Richard.


----------



## hypostatic

Woodsman said:


> My frogs started producing good tadpoles just by adding the Repashy Vitamin A to the Calcium Plus and Superpig. I haven't needed to add the Folic Acid seperately. It might be better to only add one additional suppliment at a time and check its efficacy before moving on to others.
> 
> Just a thought, Richard.


Well, if he's had success just by doing this, it might be the best route


----------



## Woodsman

So, my first two metamorphs are ready to come ootw. I just wanted to share a coulpe of photographs of what they look like at this point. It's taken a couple of years to get to this point, so I'm savoring it a little bit.

Richard.


----------



## eazyezcape

Woodsman said:


> So, my first two metamorphs are ready to come ootw. I just wanted to share a coulpe of photographs of what they look like at this point. It's taken a couple of years to get to this point, so I'm savoring it a little bit.
> 
> Richard.



I call dibs


----------



## billschwinn

Woodsman said:


> So, my first two metamorphs are ready to come ootw. I just wanted to share a coulpe of photographs of what they look like at this point. It's taken a couple of years to get to this point, so I'm savoring it a little bit.
> 
> Richard.


Richard, welcome to the Lorenzo club, look for your baseball cap soon, black with an orange duck bill!


----------



## Zoomie

Wow ! I hadn't seen this thread in a while. I kept reading saying surely Kris has caught some luck.

This is what I have learned from this thread. Breeding Pandas in captivity appears to be far easier.

They are getting lots of practice and we all know that practice makes perfect ! You've got a great support group of folks. 

Based on the amount of work that you put in to this project, I have calculated the worth of the first morphed out froglet.

I'd ask 6,000.00 and don't take a penny less than 5900.00 ! 

Kris, you are my hero! Hang in there.


----------



## frogface

Grats Richard!!! Beautiful! Please post pics as they take their first steps


----------



## Contrive

frogface said:


> The tads where pulled last Saturday. The more recent eggs were pulled around Tuesday. I didn't document the date but will when the next batch is pulled.
> 
> It seems like they develop slowly and I've wondered if that's why the egg sack goes before they do. I was hoping that increasing temps would speed development time.
> 
> I recall one picture I sent to Bill to check out. The tad had been in the egg sack for over two weeks and was no where near ready to come out. He didn't make it.
> 
> What do you think?


Increased temperature would speed development time, but result in smaller froglets. Just a thought.


----------



## Woodsman

Hi Bill,

The funny thing about the Lorenzo morph was that I wasn't very interested in them from all the photos I had seen. Then Mike K. traded me for a group of tadpoles. They are so different from any of the other D. tinctorius morphs that I raise,that they have really grown on me over time.

I wish we could find someone breeding the all-back (or ghost) form of the Lorenzo. I still haven't seen this frog in "real life", but it looks amazing from its photos.

Take care, Richard.



billschwinn said:


> Richard, welcome to the Lorenzo club, look for your baseball cap soon, black with an orange duck bill!


----------



## billschwinn

Woodsman said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> The funny thing about the Lorenzo morph was that I wasn't very interested in them from all the photos I had seen. Then Mike K. traded me for a group of tadpoles. They are so different from any of the other D. tinctorius morphs that I raise,that they have really grown on me over time.
> 
> I wish we could find someone breeding the all-back (or ghost) form of the Lorenzo. I still haven't seen this frog in "real life", but it looks amazing from its photos.
> 
> Take care, Richard.


I had a pair of Lorenzo that would produce a couple Black Ghosts each year. The adults were normal. This was about 10 years ago I beleive, I don't have them anymore, the pair I do have are from the same lineage.


----------



## chesney

Bill, It seems as if the line you have also produces offspring with orange knees. Is that common?


----------



## billschwinn

chesney said:


> Bill, It seems as if the line you have also produces offspring with orange knees. Is that common?


Those are from the Flaming Bush mountains, an obscure morph.Lisa, you should be tooting your horn on here as you produced and grew up a handfull from juvies I had sent you.I guess we owe you a hat.


----------



## Zoomie

billschwinn said:


> Those are from the Flaming Bush mountains, an obscure morph.Lisa, you should be tooting your horn on here as you produced and grew up a handfull from juvies I had sent you.I guess we owe you a hat.


Lisa could breed rocks.


----------



## billschwinn

Zoomie said:


> Lisa could breed rocks.


She does Sea Monkeys too!


----------



## frogface

Lisa, my male Lorenzo, from Bill, has knee pads and elbow pads. 

Do you have some breeding now? Please feel free to post pics of them on this thread.


----------



## Zoomie

Lisa is pretty humble about what she does. I'll talk to her today and offer to come over take pics for her if she wants. 

I do know that her breeding/rearing process is identical for all species in her collection. 

Anything that she touches ends up reproducing. I have already warned my wife to maintain a 15 foot saftey zone around her. I explained that if she ever lets her guard down and either shakes Lisa's hand or gives her a hug, Mrs. Zoomie will surely throw a clutch of octuplets. We have avoided adding children to our collection as they move to larger food items early and frankly, I hate dusting that many crickets. 

So catch us up Kris. Anything new happening?


----------



## chesney

Yay, I get a hat too? My Lorenzo will soon be upgraded to a larger tank. I'll try to take some pics as soon as I get everyone moved and tanks trimmed and redid. And for the record, I do not breed rocks or sea monkeys, but now you've got me thinking


----------



## srrrio

I have a shot in the dark question for Bill, Richard and Lisa. When your Lorenzo eggs are developing, what sort of light levels do you keep them in? 

Kris, not that you need any more motivation for success...but I have two lovely froglets as of today from the pair we have talked about


----------



## billschwinn

srrrio said:


> I have a shot in the dark question for Bill, Richard and Lisa. When your Lorenzo eggs are developing, what sort of light levels do you keep them in?
> 
> Kris, not that you need any more motivation for success...but I have two lovely froglets as of today from the pair we have talked about


I keep all my eggs in a dimly lit area of the room.


----------



## chesney

I keep all my eggs in a closet with the door closed in the summer because the air vent is just outside the door.


----------



## srrrio

I asked because I have not had a chance to research it a bit, but I have always kept eggs in dim lighting as well. I think early on I read/heard that bright light could have a negative effect on the eggs of some species . Not sure if is dogma or not. I was curious in your case Kris, because you have done such an awesome job documenting your progress, I wondered if the exposure to bright lights has impacted the egg development in any way.

Just a thought, but now I am curious.


----------



## frogface

Well their light has varied. I tried dark and bright and medium. Right now, they are in a screw organizer thing with drawers. It's in the bug closet. I keep the door open but the only light is ambient sunlight from the adjoining bathroom. 


BTW grats!! I just *knew* that was a pair. And so beautiful


----------



## srrrio

Thanks! I am more then over the moon with the little beauties. 

I was thinking about the eggs being exposed to camera flash. That is probably an over the top thought as people photograph eggs all the time.. I am guilty of shining a flashlight into black film containers to check development and to my knowledge that has not had negative effect, though that is with thumbnails for the most part.


----------



## billschwinn

srrrio said:


> Thanks! I am more then over the moon with the little beauties.
> 
> I was thinking about the eggs being exposed to camera flash. That is probably an over the top thought as people photograph eggs all the time.. I am guilty of shining a flashlight into black film containers to check development and to my knowledge that has not had negative effect, though that is with thumbnails for the most part.


Ok, what are we missing?


----------



## srrrio

Sorry, Kris and I briefly cared for the same pair of frogs, which I later purchased. I recently discovered she had an great affection for them. Now I am trying to bribe her a wee bit, now that the pair has froglets.... 

Bill, I guess my thought on exposure to light is not so bright?? 

Sally


----------



## frogface

I had a really sucky weekend (my gecko died), so this was a nice present from my Lorenzos. One of them looks a little cloudy but the other four are looking good. Their last clutch had four go bad right away and one that was developing quickly, like it should. It didn't make it (I wasn't expecting it too. It had a strange shape), but, I was encouraged by the quick development. 

Anyway, here are pics of the latest clutch. If there is any justice in the world, this clutch will hatch out. I miss my gecko


----------



## frogface

Sally, I don't know if there's anything to the exposure to flash, or not. But, just in case, I took the pics, above, with no flash


----------



## srrrio

Sorry about the gecko  

but.. the eggs look gorgeous


----------



## JeremyHuff

Kris,

What kind of gecko? I have a show Sunday and can probably pick up another for you and ship it down to you.

J


----------



## frogface

Thanks Jeremy. It was a crested gecko. My first. Something went terribly wrong and within a few weeks, he was dead. There's a handful of people trying to help me out by ensuring that it wasn't anything I did. 

His feet got swollen, I found him late at night in seizure, next day he was dead. I dunno. Bill is thinking calcium crash. I was too noobish to recognize the signs. He was eating crickets and roaches (dusted) and Repashy CGD.

Anyway, I snatched up a cute gecko yesterday, that I saw at PetCo. Totally unexpected. He looks good and hopefully it will go better this time. 

Here's a pic:


----------



## JeremyHuff

I thought it might have been the heat. Well, if you are ever in the market for another, I know several guys at the shows I do that I am sure I can get a good deal on. Good luck with the new one.


----------



## frogface

I thought it was the heat, but, I've since learned that even though the tank was warmer than it should be, it was probably not hot enough to kill him (85 degrees). 

On a brighter note, those Lorenzo eggs still look good


----------



## Pumilo

So sorry to hear about your gecko, Kris.


----------



## frogface

I think they broke up. No eggs since the beginning of July and now he's moved out of the marital sleeping spot.


----------



## Elliot

Sorry to here that! 
Maybe you should get a more attractive mate for one of them....


----------



## frogface

I guess they didn't like me badmouthing them on the interwebs. Last night they laid a small clutch of 3. I was so excited and clumsy when I moved the hut to get the dish, that I spooked the male right out of the tank! 

First he ping ponged his way up to the light fixture on top. Then dodged my grab and landed on the floor, in the middle of a tangle of cords, while my cat played with a piece of paper about a foot away. It's hard to catch a frog when your heart has stopped beating! Anyway, grabbed him, tossed him back in, did a head count (one and two, good), and then looked for the eggs, which were still stuck to the petri dish, which had been slung away during the breakout. 

Ok, I have 2 frogs and 3 eggs. Hopefully we're back in business and I haven't scared them completely out of it. Whew.


----------



## nonliteral

You were supposed to say "....and that's what happens to bad little frogs who don't produce viable froglets!" when you put him back in the tank


----------



## frogface

nonliteral said:


> You were supposed to say "....and that's what happens to bad little frogs who don't produce viable froglets!" when you put him back in the tank


And add in "do you see that hungry cat??" for good measure.


----------



## nonliteral

You could do that, or just tie a catnip mouse so it dangles in front of the viv door


----------



## jeeperrs

frogface said:


> I guess they didn't like me badmouthing them on the interwebs. Last night they laid a small clutch of 3. I was so excited and clumsy when I moved the hut to get the dish, that I spooked the male right out of the tank!
> 
> First he ping ponged his way up to the light fixture on top. Then dodged my grab and landed on the floor, in the middle of a tangle of cords, while my cat played with a piece of paper about a foot away. It's hard to catch a frog when your heart has stopped beating! Anyway, grabbed him, tossed him back in, did a head count (one and two, good), and then looked for the eggs, which were still stuck to the petri dish, which had been slung away during the breakout.
> 
> Ok, I have 2 frogs and 3 eggs. Hopefully we're back in business and I haven't scared them completely out of it. Whew.


You make me laugh


----------



## frogface

nonliteral said:


> You could do that, or just tie a catnip mouse so it dangles in front of the viv door


That is an evil, yet, hilarious image


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I play a video of Kermit singing "It's not easy being green" and tell my frogs if they don't breed I'll sell them to an animal trainer in Hollywood, there they'll get a hand stuck up their ass and be forced to sing and perform for humans. 

They quickly realize how good they really have it.


----------



## nonliteral

frogface said:


> That is an evil, yet, hilarious image


"Gotta breed - cat wlll eat me. Gotta breed - cat will eat me."


----------



## frogface

Spider web! 

It traverses between the backside of the wood and the background. There is a 2-3 inch gap between the back and wood, so they can move across the entire tank, out of view. Unfortunately, spiders are also out of view, so, I can't see what it is. Whatever it is, they haven't eaten it because the web looks well maintained.

So, anyway, I guess they're about to have a tank makeover. I'm going to have to rip the wood out of the tank to get to the spider.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Have I mentioned before that I hate spiders? I would love to help you Kris but I wouldn`t be much good running around your house screaming like a teenage girl who lost her cell phone.

John


----------



## frogface

They're in a plastic tub, full of philodendron, just courting away. Maybe it's for the best. New tank, fresh start.


----------



## frogface

Found the spider after the tank was almost emptied out. He had taken refuge in the substrate. Looked like a false widow or something similar. Too big for a tinc to eat. He had webs all over the place behind and inside the wood. Sure wish you had been here, John  

I boiled the wood to get rid of any others that might have been hiding and also for the snails. Hope that works. Snails have been plaguing me in this tank. Now time to rebuild the love tank. I'm using a different tank so I can take time getting the old one nice and clean. 

Next paycheck, I'm getting a shop vac and fly strips....


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Of course they'll breed like flies now, they've moved into "the projects"


----------



## frogface

They are in their new home. Much to their displeasure, it lacks the hide spots of their previous home; hide spots for frogs and spiders...

I think they are adjusting though. It really is a bad looking tank, lol. I transplanted the plants from their previous tank and, well, the plants don't like it much either. Here are some pics:

Hey! What's going on here! What is this dump?








This is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. 








Good grief. Where are we? This place stinks! 








Heeeeelp!








Hmm things seem quiet now. I wonder what's under this leaf?








What?! Frogs in a log?








Eggs?!!!


----------



## frog dude

Haha hilarious! It's like you can read their minds.


----------



## gilliusis

It may take to get a result above all expectations Frogdface !


----------



## tnwalkers

hi Kris what a great imformative thread. i have spent the last couple of hours reading thru it along with playing go fish with my 5 yr old i was curious in how long u kept the eggs in the viv upon finding them. do u pull them immediatley? have you tried leaving them in there until the tadpole stage? 

i have no experience in keping or breeding frogs yet, currently scouring the forums and edumacating myself.

do tincs care for their young? would it help if the eggs stayed in with the parents longer?


----------



## frogface

I can't believe you made it through the whole thread, lol. 

In the old tank, I always took the eggs out as soon as I found them, because the tank had snails and snails eat frog eggs. I left the eggs in the new tank overnight because I didn't want to freak the frogs out since they're still getting settled in and the eggs were right next to their sleeping spot.

Tincs don't take care of their eggs, other than the male watering them. From what I've learned here on DB, there's not much point in leaving them in the tank since they are already fertilized. The membrane hardens and prevents additional fertilization (don't recall the fancy words for all this).

Did you know that the tinc male lays down the sperm first and then the eggs get laid on top? Crazy huh! I just learned that recently


----------



## tnwalkers

I did not know tht about the snails eating the eggs...learn more n more everyday tht what I love about this hobby folks eager to help and teach complete strangers


----------



## Woodsman

Hey Rusty,

I'm sure that you didin't mean to be offensive, but (as one of the DB members who actually did grow up in "the projects"), the stereotype that poor people make too many babies is a bit over the line. If that's what you meant.

Take care, Richard.



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Of course they'll breed like flies now, they've moved into "the projects"


----------



## frogface

Woodsman said:


> Hey Rusty,
> 
> I'm sure that you didin't mean to be offensive, but (as one of the DB members who actually did grow up in "the projects"), the stereotype that poor people make too many babies is a bit over the line. If that's what you meant.
> 
> Take care, Richard.


I'm sorry Richard. You are right. I thanked his post and did wince a little as I did it. I think that those of us who are more crass forget that we aren't always in the Thunderdome.


----------



## frogface

Ok back to our regularly scheduled, never-ending, clutch watch. Hope to start a 'morphling watch' soon  

Here are the eggs from the leaf in the new tank. One bad and 4 perfect little black pearls. The picture was taken with flash because the eggs blend with the leaf and are nearly invisible. I had to take the picture just to be able to see them, lol. 










eta: Anyone following or enjoying this thread, please go to this link (these Lorenzos are Bill's offspring): http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/86254-update-bill-schwinn-frog-breeder-extraordinaire.html


----------



## Shinosuke

frogface said:


> This is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife.
> View attachment 32634


I bet they were asking "Well, how did I get here?"


----------



## siples

I just watched that concert DVD, love it!!!!!!!


----------



## frogface

Next clutch


----------



## hypostatic

oh wow these last two look like the best clutches you've posted yet!


----------



## frogface

Clutch from 8/19 isn't looking very good. Clutch from 8/21 looks great!

clutch from 8/19









clutch from 8/21









side by side


----------



## frogface

Still looking good. I can see development. tick.. tock... tick.. tock


----------



## KeithS

Waiting for a positive update. Let' Keep our fingers crossed.


----------



## frogface

Ooooh aaaaaah 

Without flash








With flash


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Fantastic you maniac!!!
Have you chosen Godparents yet? 

John


----------



## srrrio

I am resisting the urge to say "you go girl" 
I guess I said it anyway


----------



## frogface

Quick update. One is still doing well. The other three are doing the exploding stomach thing. The happy couple is in the hut.


----------



## frogface

All gone....

I sent the parents back to the hut and told them not to come out until they had some good eggs for Bill's homecoming


----------



## frogface

Something is wrong with my female. I've got her soaking in ARS and Ed's been giving me some advice. Hopefully, I'll be able to get her to the vet soon. Here's a video of what's going on.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Wow Kris, that nearly brought tears to my eyes (sorry) because I know how much you care.
I can`t really help you with any med advise, but I`m really pulling for her.

John


----------



## Woodsman

If she is letting the springtails run all over her, that's a bad sign. It might be better to move her to a quarantine that doesn't have springs in it.

I actually lost my breeding female last week very suddenly. I'm starting to believe that all the breeding they were involved in wasn't the best thing for her health. Fortunately, I have ten nice juveniles and another 30 tadpoles coming along, so I should be able to get back to breeding in the future.

Good luck with her Kris.

Take care, Richard.


----------



## frogface

Yes she is letting springs climb on her! She's been in a container of ARS since last night. She doesn't do the weird hiccup thing in the container. Hopefully that is a good sign. I've got Bill's frogs coming in today. As soon as they are squared away, I'm going to see if the local exotic vet can see her.


----------



## frogface

I lied. She *is *doing the hiccup thing in the cup and she appears to be getting more bloated. omg..... 

*Hurry up Fedex!! *


----------



## frogface

I Just sent an email to the exotic vet with a link to the video. Hopefully I can get her out there today or maybe they can help online.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Kris, I hope your female is alright. I watched the video and that is really odd behavior. My thoughts and prayer are with you and I hope everything turns out fine.

Edit* Now I feel horrible about joking about Bill's Lorenzos. I posted that before I saw your post and video.


----------



## frogface

She has an appt at 4 with the exotic vet.


----------



## frogface

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Kris, I hope your female is alright. I watched the video and that is really odd behavior. My thoughts and prayer are with you and I hope everything turns out fine.
> 
> Edit* Now I feel horrible about joking about Bill's Lorenzos. I posted that before I saw your post and video.


No worries, Jon. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. I thought the joke about the Lorenzos was funny.


----------



## Shinosuke

I'm so sorry to hear this! I hope she gets better soon.


----------



## WendySHall

It looks like she's weak (slowly going into the resting position) and having muscle spasms. I'm so sorry Kris...this is so sad. I want to send my best wishes that the vet can do something for her and she has a speedy recovery. (Fingers crossed!)


----------



## frogface

We just got back from the vet. She was great! She is a reptile keeper herself. She said she rarely sees darts but does get a lot of frogs in; mostly tree frogs. She was surprised by how small the Lorenzo is. 

She had watched my video before I got there and said that the only other time she had seen a frog behave like that, it was a Dumpy with bacterial pneumonia. 

Some bullet points:

Does not suspect anything nutritional or environmental. Care sounds 
excellent 

Said her skin is beautiful (this made me very happy to hear)

A little bloated. Removed some fluid from stomach. 

Inside her mouth looked good. No lesions, ulcers or obstructions.

Was not expressing typical behavior to indicate impaction (whew),
which is good because she's too small to go in after it. 

Other than the bloating and the weird hiccupy stuff, she appears 
healthy. She is active, oh, and have I mentioned she has beautiful
skin?? 

She's not used to clients bringing their own Amphibian Ringers Solution,



By the time we got there, the Lorenzo was not only doing the hiccuppy thing, but, was also opening and closing her mouth. So, vet drained some fluid from the abdomen. She did not get a lot of fluid but right away the Lorenzo stopped the hiccups and mouth opening and appeared more comfortable. 

Differential dx: bacterial or parasitic infection, organ failure, cancer, reproductive tract issues. 

To begin tx for the treatable conditions (basically bacterial or parasitic infection). She will be soaking in ARS and Baytril for 5 hours a day for 10 days. She will also be getting Ivermectin once a week. Vet prepared the Baytril and Ivermectin for us. She asked that I keep in touch to let her know how she's doing. 

Interesting aside: the frog with pneumonia had oral antibiotics and nebulizer treatments. Somehow that makes me think of Bill  

Oh! And back on topic of this thread. I told her how I was trying to get the Lorenzos breeding and the problems I've been having. She knows 2 labs in the US that can necropsy tads to help determine where the reproductive issues are. I forgot to get the contact info from her but will when I call in for an update.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Yay!!!!!!!
So she's in treatment?? I'm SO happy to hear this!!!
Now if you could just get her to quit smoking lol.


----------



## kitcolebay

So sorry to hear of your ill-feeling frog. Sounds like there's hope and you're obviously doing everything you can! Glad to hear you found such a helpful and nice vet! Fingers crossed and best wishes!


----------



## frogface

She's having her soak now. I set up a simple 10g for her and put the ARS/baytril container, with her in it, in there for now. I'll let her out at midnight. 

Since this may be bacterial, I'll be stripping and cleaning their marital tank and setting it back up. They'll remain separate at least through her treatment. Maybe a little longer to give her a break from breeding. 

She is still active and clearly hates my guts


----------



## kitcolebay

frogface said:


> She's having her soak now. I set up a simple 10g for her and put the ARS/baytril container, with her in it, in there for now. I'll let her out at midnight.
> 
> Since this may be bacterial, I'll be stripping and cleaning their marital tank and setting it back up. They'll remain separate at least through her treatment. Maybe a little longer to give her a break from breeding.
> 
> She is still active and clearly hates my guts


Aww, poor thing! She'll definitely be loving you and thanking you when she's all better!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Kris, do you have any idea what brought this on?

John


----------



## WendySHall

Hey Kris, please forgive my nosiness but I'm hoping you'll help me understand the way she was diagnosed...

I understand the possible organ failure (since she was retaining fluids) and reproductive tract issues (based on your reports)...but was the bacterial or parasitic infection based solely on the behavior of the frog or did she run tests? And how did the diagnosis of cancer come about?


----------



## frogface

Yes, it was based on signs and symptoms. Of the listed possible causes for bloating, bacterial infection and parasites were the only ones that are treatable. She felt it was the most likely, given how healthy and active the Lorenzo appeared otherwise and the fluid drawn was very clear looking. Renal failure, liver, heart, cancer, she felt, would have more impact on the Lorenzos activity (cancer is just one of the possible causes for bloating). Reproductive issues as a possibility was, pretty much, ruled out due to her having laid a normal clutch just this weekend, after the swelling and hiccuping started. 

She did not run tests. She did seem very knowledgeable and I'm comfortable with her conclusions. She specializes in reptiles and amphibians. She spent a long time with us, talking about possibilities, and was clearly infatuated with my frog 

So, basically, it's either treatable with antibiotics and/or antiparasitics, or it's not treatable. Now we watch to see if there is improvement. 

An hour of her poking and squeezing my frog, and meds, and fluid drain, the bill only came to 140 bucks. While I would like to have a definitive diagnosis, testing wouldn't really have changed the course of treatment and would have cost a LOT more. 

Last night, when I let her out of her bath, her belly was so big that she looked like a turtle. But she is still strong and moving around. 

(Wendy, I know you were just curious and I don't mean my response to be anything other than trying to explain the train of thought in how we decided to treat the frog. We spent a lot of time discussing it.)

Oh yea, they do house calls, too.


----------



## WendySHall

frogface said:


> (Wendy, I know you were just curious and I don't mean my response to be anything other than trying to explain the train of thought in how we decided to treat the frog. We spent a lot of time discussing it.)


Oh, Kris...you worry too much! I didn't take it any other way. And yes...it was just my curiosity at wondering how the diagnosis came about. I'm nowhere near questioning the reliability or anything else. It sounds like she's a really nice and caring vet. Even though I haven't been posting a lot lately (that really needs to change!), I've been following this thread since it started and have been "hurraying" and "oh-no"ing from the start along with you. I really hope she gets better. She is a beautiful little frog.


----------



## frogface

She came out for breakfast (without hesitation) and snarfed up a bunch of flies. She already looks a bit better. 

Meanwhile, the male is crawling the walls of his tank wondering wtf she went.


----------



## frogface

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Kris, do you have any idea what brought this on?
> 
> John


Sorry John, I missed this. 

If it's bacteria or parasites, she thought it was likely impaired immune system due to stress. Now I wonder if it had anything to do with moving them to a different tank. Remember the scary spider in their old tank? They had been in there for 2 years and it had lots of dark hidey space and thick plants. The new tank is much more open (easier to find spiders) and not enough plants. Maybe the move to the crappy tank is stressing her out. 

I also wonder if it could be from the mister. Would bacterial pneumonia be the result of inhaling bacteria? I have 2 misters, one is a pump sprayer and the other is a hand sprayer. The pump sprayer had not been used for a while but I brought it back out a few weeks ago. I wonder if it could have had bacteria in it, from sitting, that I then misted into the tank?

Dunno, but, just in case, I'm going to sanitize the sprayers tonight.


----------



## gilliusis

I read this post from the beginning, what exciting adventure ... and stressful !!!
You bring a lot of care to your lorenzo, you are an example !


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

gilliusis said:


> I read this post from the beginning, what exciting adventure ... and stressful !!!
> You bring a lot of care to your lorenzo, you are an example !


Wait to you really get to know her!!!

John


----------



## frogface

She looks great! Much less bloating. Good color. We already know she has beautiful skin. I made up her bath for the night and she was very active in trying to get away from me. After I snatched her up and put her in the container, she sat right down for her soak. She such a good frog 

I'll try to get a new video tomorrow, before work, to compare to the last one. No more jerking back or opening her mouth.


----------



## nonliteral

That's great news, Kris!


----------



## Capitol City Frog Farm

Look good.


----------



## frogface

Quick update: Last night, I opened her Baytril bath container, and tilted it so she could just step out of it. She didn't. She continued to soak. Figuring that she knew better than me, I left her alone. 

This morning, she's sleeping in the leaf litter and continues to look good. 

I don't have time to update pics or a vid, right now, but, I'll try to do it tonight. I want to know if you guys think she looks better, too.


----------



## frogface

Picture update. I tried to get video but I have her hospital tank dim and the vid was too difficult to see.

Monday (pre-Rx)









Wednesday (I thought I was going to lose her)









Today









She should have some stomach pooch because she's gravid. I think she could still stand to lose more water, though. 

I haven't started the antiparasitic yet. I wanted her a little healthier before I had her start shedding worms, because, I've heard it can be stressful. I'll start that in the morning.


----------



## Woodsman

I traded a male for a female a few months ago and the female came in extremely bloated. I gave her a Panacur treatment every five days for 1.5 months and she now looks great. I can't be sure that your frog has parasites (did the vet look at her fecales?), but she certainly looks like the female Lorenzo I was treating.

Good luck with her, Richard.


----------



## frogface

She hadn't pooped in the 24 hours prior to getting to the vet, so, there was no fecal testing done.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

That`s a beautiful frog Kris. With all that you`re doing for her she`s going to be fine AND reward you with some healthy eggs.
Nice work sweetie.

John


----------



## WendySHall

She looks quite a bit better in that last picture and a lot less bloated (wow!). It also looks like she's holding herself up well. Does she seem stronger to you?


----------



## frogface

Yes she does seem stronger. She seems almost back to her normal self.


----------



## WendySHall

That's great to hear!


----------



## frogface

I'm really glad I went ahead and took her to the vet. I kept tossing it back and forth in my mind. Can't afford it, maybe she's not that sick, maybe she'll get better, I need to take care of Bill's frogs so maybe I'll take her in a few days, blah, blah. And then came the 'screw everything else, I don't want her to die'. 

Now I'm so happy that she seems to be getting better. Even if she does die, I know I did what I could instead of just waiting the Grim Reaper out.

eta: I am very lucky to have an exotic vet nearby. Not everyone has that option.


----------



## WendySHall

Awww, Kris 

Sometimes it's really hard...we get so attached to these lil guys. I think you made the right decision, though. If you wouldn't have taken her and she then died, you would've really beaten yourself up over it. At least now, you know you've done everything you can so far. (You're a good frog mommy!)


----------



## Hatmehit

I just read through this and am subscribing to see how things go. Just wanted to say good luck. I hope she keeps improving.


----------



## FrogBoyMike

wow was getting lots of education just from the breeding side And by far the most entertaining by how excited you are about these little guys. but was very sad to hear bout her infection Hope that treatment goes well. No frog ever had a better mom


----------



## easternversant

Wow, you are quite the dedicated frogger! I'm glad to see she is doing much better!


----------



## frogface

easternversant said:


> Wow, you are quite the dedicated frogger! I'm glad to see she is doing much better!


I'd like to think I'd do this for any of my frogs, but, this pair is special


----------



## hypostatic

I'm glad to see that your female is doing better! The threa always has me on the edge of my seat!


----------



## frogface

The remaining egg from the clutch she left for me on Sunday. Maybe the frog gods will smile upon me this time:


----------



## srrrio

Kris,
Surely the gods will smile on this little egg and the little mama and you! 

Good good job with bringing her to better health. You also reminded me to order some more ARS. I gave the last of mine to someone who needed it awhile ago, but it is something I really like to have on hand, thanks!


----------



## frogface

My vet's office has started doing videos. Here's one with Doc who saw my frog:


----------



## frogface

Since putting her in her hospital tank, she's stayed under the leaves during the day. Today she was out hopping around and trying to find her way out of the tank, like a normal frog. She's eating and pooping! Here are the before and after vids so you can see how much she's improved


----------



## Tinctoc

She's looking good!! Great to see her active and eating!


----------



## LizardLicker

Very nice.... I am glad she is getting better for you.


----------



## WendySHall

Those quick little hops back and forth trying to find an escape route have got to be a really good sign!


----------



## fieldnstream

Yayyy Kris! She is lucky to have an attentive momma 
I think you have more than earned a nice healthy clutch now


----------



## isoletes

I'm so glad she is getting better!!!!!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

That is awesome Kris, most people wouldn`t have gone through the trouble. I`m sure you posting this will help a lot of people with a sick frog.
Nice job kiddo.

John


----------



## FrogBoyMike

Awesome! glad to seeher getting better. Jumping around looking for her cuddle buddy lol
Good job. Hopefully she'll thank you with some good eggs!


----------



## frogface

OMFG!!!!!

I cannot BELIEVE this. Crying and hyperventilating... 

Today I picked up some more ARS from the vet. Don't know who made it but I suspect it was the same guy as was emptying the trash cans.

I put her in her soak tonight and she kept trying to get out. I thought it was because she was feeling better. When I went to let her out, she was DEAD! Dead and covered with blisters.

I think I'm going to throw up.


----------



## srrrio

F... is the first thing that comes to mind.

Oh so sorry Kris. Take some time for yourself, walk away look at other frogs and babies and do not beat yourself up. You were doing everything you possibly could for her.


----------



## isoletes

so so sorry


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I'm crying along with you. Something just doesn't seem right about this.
There has to be a reason for the blistering. I'm so so so sorry Kris. My heart goes out to you in the biggest way.


----------



## frogface

My guess is the ARS. They make it to order at the office. 

I also put a small container of it in with one of Bill's frogs that had been soaking in the water dish a lot. She hopped right out and didn't want anything to do with it. My frog didn't have the option to get out. 

I immediately removed the cup from Bill's frog's tank.


----------



## JimO

I'm so sorry. That is just heart sickening.


----------



## WendySHall

Omg, Kris! I don't know what to say! After the wave of sorrow comes infuriation!

I would be on the phone to that Drs office b****ing my head off!!! They should definitely have someone check it (that knows what they're doing!)...but, yeah...I would think it was the solution too!

That poor, poor girl!

I know it doesn't help right now...and you probably won't listen...but don't beat yourself up over it. You had no way of knowing.

I am so sorry.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Wendy is right, there is absolutely no way you did anything wrong. No way you could have known or know now what is in that solution.


----------



## fieldnstream

Soooo very sorry to hear this Kris. I can't imagine how upsetting this is, but just know you have tons of people sending good vibes your way. Seems like the nicest, most caring people get crapped on by luck. Again, so sorry.


----------



## frogface

This evening I sent an email to my vet's office with a link to the video of her doing better. Told them how much I appreciate their help, blah blah.

Tonight I sent a follow up email with a link to the picture of her tiny blistered body. 

Everything went wrong at that office today. I called ahead to tell them I needed Amphibian Ringer's Solution and would be by to pick it up. The girl said, oh Baytril? I said, no I need Amphibian Ringer's Solution. She said 'but that's not on the chart.' I said 'I know, I didn't need it before because I had my own. It ran out and now I need some.' I show up. They go back to make it. Come back out with a tiny bottle of Baytril for me. I explain, again, that I don't need Baytril, I need Amphibian Ringer's Solution. It took me 5 minutes to explain that. After waiting for a Looooong time, they bring it out. 

Apparently they use battery acid as the inactive ingredient.


----------



## frogface

Thanks guys. I'm not really blaming myself except with the hindsight that she was suffering in her container and I didn't save her. I keep thinking 'if only I'd let her out when she started climbing the cup.' But, then, you expect a frog to try to get out of a cup.

I dunno. I'm so sad.


----------



## fieldnstream

frogface said:


> But, then, you expect a frog to try to get out of a cup.


Exactly...there is no way that any of this is your fault at all. You have gone waaaaaaay above and beyond what the majority of keepers would do for a frog. You, madam, are truly one of my heros (heroines?)!


----------



## kitcolebay

I'm so sorry Kris. At a complete loss for words.


----------



## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I'm crying along with you. Something just doesn't seem right about this.
> There has to be a reason for the blistering. I'm so so so sorry Kris. My heart goes out to you in the biggest way.


Hrrmmmm.... I don't think you can automatically blame the vet's office or yourself. The blistering may actually be due to some other problem. For example, the blistering could have been due to a disruption of the ability of the skin to osmoregulate resulting in blisters. It is also possible that the bloating was due to a bacteria that secretes endotoxins and that the antibiotic treatment caused an uncommon side effect of inducing endotoxin release. The blistering could also be post mortum as tissue death changes the ability of the skin to osmoregulate resulting in patchy fluid accumulation.... These are all of the culff of course and you need to talk to your vet about it.. in the meantime, refrigerate the frog in case you decide to have a necropsy done on it. If it had a mycobacterium infection, you'll want to know since it can have ramifications on the rest of your collection as well as zoonotic potential. 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## ChrisK

That's totally outrageous, make sure you follow up with that vet and find out what happened, even if you need to give the ARS back to her to be analyzed, if for no other reason than to find out who did what so they don't do it to someone else.

Edit: Just to follow up on what Ed said, it is also possible nobody did anything wrong after all, and you kept her alive as long as you could, once after contacting a dart vet for advisement on a bloated frog, his answer was basically "wish I had better news for you", without any examination. Still a good idea to try and find out what happened though just in case.


----------



## WendySHall

Well...after Ed's post...I'm putting away my torch and pitchfork for now. 

But, yes...definitely have them run tests on that solution just in case. Even though there are evidently many possiblities as to the cause...the first thing I would check is that solution since you discovered it immediately following the bath.


----------



## frogface

Thanks Ed

I have her in the fridge and I'll pick up some Everclear today. Some for her and some for me. 

If I shouldn't put her in Everclear, please let me know. It will be a few days before I can get back to the vet.


----------



## Shinosuke

Kris I am SO sorry that this happened! I want to reinforce, with everyone else, that we all know you've done everything possible for this frog. In fact, you deserve a medal for "Frog-Mom of the Century"! Unfortunately these things just happen sometimes, though I'd definitely take some of that solution back to the vet to get it analyzed.

Stay strong buddy, and let us know if there's anything you need. We've all got your back.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Kris, these things just happen. It sucks, but they just do. We`re a different breed of pet owners with these beautiful animals of ours. I think that we`re kind of special, some more than others (yes you) You did EVERYTHING you could and it`s an honor having you for a friend.

Love ya, John


----------



## Woodsman

Hi Kris,

I'm really sorry to hear that your girl didn't make it. As I mentioned, one of my females died very unexpectedly about a month ago. She was feeding and looked just fine and then one morning was gone. She had been laying clutches one after another (the last double clutch had 17 eggs in it), so it is possible that she just burned herself out. I think the very limited gene pool in this morph doesn't help matter either.

I am fortunate that this pair produced a large number of good tadpoles before she died. I have 8 really nice juveniles coming along and would be really happy to replace your female as soon as they are sexable.

Again, sorry for your loss. Richard.


----------



## frogface

Thank you so much, Richard. That gave me a smile 

Now that the shock is over, I want to tell you guys that I'm not litigious. If this does turn out to have been the ARS, well, it was just an accident, IMO. I'm glad I don't get sued every time I screw up at work. I still have faith in my vet and her ability. Just wanted to say, in case anyone wondered where I was going with this. 

I am going to try to get the necropsy done, to find out if it was the ARS because they need to know and maybe retrain whoever mixed it. Also, I need to know if it was something more sinister since I have Bill's frogs here and also Eric's frogs. I do have each collection in their own room with their own feeding dishes, petri dishes and tad cups, but, I'm not exactly running a sterile lab.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Wow Kris! So sorry to hear this. I'm sure Richard will grow up a female in no time. Keep your chin up.


----------



## hypostatic

I am SO sorry to hear what happened =(

Is there any way to like test the ARS? Like to see if it was made correctly? I'm sure you don't have a spectrophotometer lying around, but it would be a quick way to see if it was made correctly at least


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## FrogBoyMike

Awww Kris I am so sorry to hear what happened! I hope you do have that checked out cause that some scary stuff if it could have hurt the other frogs as well!:/
Glad to see that richard will soon be able to help you get a new girl though at least was hoping someone would when i read bout your loss.
Your the best frog mom that I've seen on here! 
Keep on doing what you do best


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## nonliteral

Kris, I'm so, so sorry -- I know it's not much comfort, but however this turns out to have happened, you really did do your best for her. It sucks that sometimes no matter what you do, events find their way around it.


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## frogface

Thanks everyone. It's nice to have people who understand. My coworkers are staring at my puffy up-all-night-crying eyes and wondering why a frog has me so upset.

Richard, I am so grateful to you for your offer. As you know, it's not just about replacing a favorite frog; it's about keeping Lorenzos in the hobby. If you are able to grow out a female for me, she will less related to my male. That has got to help our efforts. At this point, I don't know who, besides Bill, has a breeding pair, and, his have been through a tough time with his illness.


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## kthehun89

Man, I wish I could give you a hug. All I guess you can do is wait until a female grows out, and get back into breeding then. It sucks that this frog had such important implications for the captive population...


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## frogface

Just talked to the vet. She wants a necropsy as she's as curious as we are about what happened, given how well the Lorenzo was doing. 

She said that while she did not mix up the ARS, she was standing right there watching the tech when it was mixed. It is lactated ringer's solution with, umm, some sort of fancy name for sugar that I don't remember. Something that they use for mammals and add the additional stuff for amphibians. She said that while they have not used it on a dart before, they do use it with other amphibians without issue.

eta: she said 'no' to the Everclear, because it breaks down tissue


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## Woodsman

It would be a good idea to breakdown and sterilize the Lorenzos vivarium. I would also move the male to temporary housing and give him a course of Panacur (as we aren't sure that parasites weren't part of the female's problem). After finishing the course of Panacur, the male could be moved into his new set-up (hopefully, with the new female that I'll be producing here for you). Just some ideas.

Richard. (I would also let the vet know that she had been laying clutches pretty heavily and ask if that could have contributed to her death).


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## frogface

I'll ask the vet, tomorrow, when I drop my female off for the necropsy, if she would give me baytril and antiparasitics, prophylactically, for the male. I feel certain she will. I've told her how scarce these frogs are in the US hobby. I think she's in on the drive to keep them going.

You should have seen the looks I got at work today when I told people I was going to have my frog undergo an autopsy, lol.


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## Woodsman

When I have used Baytril in the past, I would only put a drop or two on the frog's back, not used in a soaking dish. Frogs have such porous skin, that I would wonder if you could give an overdose of the antibiotic through soaking them in it. Just one of the many questions I'm sure you'll have for her.

Richard


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## frogface

Woodsman said:


> When I have used Baytril in the past, I would only put a drop or two on the frog's back, not used in a soaking dish. Frogs have such porous skin, that I would wonder if you could give an overdose of the antibiotic through soaking them in it. Just one of the many questions I'm sure you'll have for her.
> 
> Richard


She weighed the frog, and, then made up a syringe of Baytril, diluted to a certain degree, and then instructed 66ccs of ARS to 5ccs of the Baytril, from the syringe, for the soak.

For my male Lorenzo, I'm going to request the 'drops on the back', because he is not bloated nor acting sick. I don't think he needs such extreme treatment. I'll weigh him before I go in.

ETA: Sorry, it's 60ccs of ARS to 0.07 cc of the baytril syringe.


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## Ed

It can be dosed either way via a bath or drops on the back. It all depends on how critical it is to make sure you have a theraputic dose right away (since drops on the back can run off, etc)... Soaking in a dilute solution is used as a method for a number of different medications that are soluble in water. 

Ed


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## Maleko

Sorry to hear about her Kris 
My frog still is going through the severe bloating I am calling the vet tomorrow and have the ARS being shipped for now. But now I am a little scared of the ARS


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## frogface

Maleko said:


> Sorry to hear about her Kris
> My frog still is going through the severe bloating I am calling the vet tomorrow and have the ARS being shipped for now. But now I am a little scared of the ARS


Don't be worried. Carolina Biological Supply is top notch. *If* the ARS had anything to do with it, it was a fluke.


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## JeremyHuff

I really recommend everyone get a bottle of Amphibian Ringer Solution to have on hand. It is really worth it and to my knowledge has a long or indefinite shelf life.


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## JeremyHuff

Fisher Sci use to have a smaller amount available, but here is the Carolina link

Ringer Solution, Amphibian, Laboratory Grade, 1 L - Chemicals P - T - Chemistry - Chemistry & Physics - Carolina Biological Supply Company


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## gilliusis

I just fall on news of your female  I am very sad to see the results after much effort. She was so beautiful !
If I could do something I would, but I'm a little away from you 
I hope you will find the problem and find the smile, and perhaps find another female ...!
See you soon.


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## Ed

JeremyHuff said:


> I really recommend everyone get a bottle of Amphibian Ringer Solution to have on hand. It is really worth it and to my knowledge has a long or indefinite shelf life.


It does have a long shelf life if kept dark to prevent algae growth in the containers At the zoo, I would keep 5 gallons containers of both standard ARS and hypertonic ARS on hand. I would mix up a new batch when we got down to the bottom of a batch. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed

Woodsman said:


> It would be a good idea to breakdown and sterilize the Lorenzos vivarium. I would also move the male to temporary housing and give him a course of Panacur (as we aren't sure that parasites weren't part of the female's problem).


I would suggest getting a fecal check since both panacure and ivermectin don't kill all potential parasites. For example, neither are effective against flukes. 

Some comments

Ed


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## frogface

I just dropped her off for necropsy. She still looks good. It's hard to believe she is dead. In fact, I asked them to please check to make sure before they start.


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## Ed

frogface said:


> I just dropped her off for necropsy. She still looks good. It's hard to believe she is dead. In fact, I asked them to please check to make sure before they start.


One year while I was still with the zoo, on my daily checks, I opened a container with an off the exhibit fire salamander and thought to myself crud it's dead. I was able to pick it up by the base of the tail, with the body sticking out stiff as a board...like it was in full rigor. I fillout the documents, pack it up and drop it off at pathology. The pathologist goes to necropsy it later that day and when he went to open the body cavity, it tried to bite him... He sent it back down with a note that stated that while getting the body to necropsy as soon as possible was great, it might be a little premature for that salamander.... It did pass away a few days later.... 

Ed


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## frogface

Hah, that's my fear! Except they won't notice until too late. 

She was overnight in a container and not refrigerated until the following morning, yet, she looks good. She hasn't lost her water. Maybe she's just stiff from being in the fridge? Maybe she was upside down in the container of ARS because she had a seizure and maybe I pulled her out of the fluid just in time to keep her from drowning. Not sure what to make of the blisters. 

I guess I'm in the denial stage of the grief process. Next I start bargaining.


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## frogface

Just spoke with vet about whether or not we should treat the male. She said that since he is clinically normal, she would rather wait until the necropsy report before deciding how or if to treat him. I agreed. Don't want to mess with him while he seems healthy.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

I'm a little surprised the vet didn't suggest at least a fecal exam on the male frog.


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## frogface

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I'm a little surprised the vet didn't suggest at least a fecal exam on the male frog.


I dunno. Maybe they'll doing a parasite inventory during the female's necropsy.


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## Ed

frogface said:


> I dunno. Maybe they'll doing a parasite inventory during the female's necropsy.


It would be odd for the male to be unifected if the female is infected unless it is something like encysted tapeworms ... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Ed said:


> It would be odd for the male to be unifected if the female is infected unless it is something like encysted tapeworms ...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


That's what I was thinking. Which is why I posted that comment. I could see not doing any prophylactic treatment on the male, but I would have thought the vet would order a fecal on the male just to see if he is infected while the necropsy on the female is being performed. If he is infected, valuable treatment time is being lost.


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## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> That's what I was thinking. Which is why I posted that comment. I could see not doing any prophylactic treatment on the male, but I would have thought the vet would order a fecal on the male just to see if he is infected while the necropsy on the female is being performed. If he is infected, valuable treatment time is being lost.


The problem is that things like encysted tapeworms won't show up on a fecal... 

Ed


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## frogface

Just got the necropsy report, paraphrased on my voice mail. I'm going to ask them to email me the actual report.

Septicemia; kidneys, liver, ovaries, skin muscle, abdominal cavity. She suspects stress due to over-breeding due to changes in the ovaries. This is not a contagious condition and she doesn't think there is any need to treat the male as long as he appears healthy. 

Richard, I found this particularly interesting, since you suspected over-breeding in your own female. Maybe Lorenzos need more down time?


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## Woodsman

Hi Kris,

I had this thought since both of our females were breeding heavily. They are a small frog and, according to my records, my pair was laying clutches on average every 4-5 days for over 8 months. I have not had this issue arise with any of my other D. tinctorius, which seem to know to stop laying cluthes and take a natural break in breeding.

Fortunately, all the babies are growing well, though still quite a ways from being sexable.

Take care, Richard.


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## Shinosuke

I'm still very sorry she passed away, but there are worse ways to go than getting too much nooky!


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## Rusty_Shackleford

frogface said:


> Just got the necropsy report, paraphrased on my voice mail. I'm going to ask them to email me the actual report.
> 
> Septicemia; kidneys, liver, ovaries, skin muscle, abdominal cavity. She suspects stress due to over-breeding due to changes in the ovaries. This is not a contagious condition and she doesn't think there is any need to treat the male as long as he appears healthy.
> 
> Richard, I found this particularly interesting, since you suspected over-breeding in your own female. Maybe Lorenzos need more down time?


So the stress and over exertion from constant breeding weakened her immune system to the point she couldn't fight of the Septicemia?


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## frogface

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> So the stress and over exertion from constant breeding weakened her immune system to the point she couldn't fight of the Septicemia?


Yes, that's what she said. She said they isolated a couple strains of bacteria and they are bacteria commonly found that had multiplied due to weakened immune system. That's my layman's translation. I could have it completely wrong. I did send them an email asking for the actual report. I'll post it once I get it so you all can help me decipher it.

She said it can be caused by husbandry issues, but, didn't feel that was the case with this frog because my husbandry sounded good (actually, she said 'excellent'  ). The other option was stress from overbreeding. She felt this was more likely and noted that the ovaries had changes consistent with this.

eta: my opinion is that husbandry issues would be effecting her tank mate too.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

frogface said:


> Yes, that's what she said. She said they isolated a couple strains of bacteria and they are bacteria commonly found that had multiplied due to weakened immune system. That's my layman's translation. I could have it completely wrong. I did send them an email asking for the actual report. I'll post it once I get it so you all can help me decipher it.
> 
> She said it can be caused by husbandry issues, but, didn't feel that was the case with this frog because my husbandry sounded good (actually, she said 'excellent'  ). The other option was stress from over breeding. She felt this was more likely and noted that the ovaries had changes consistent with this.
> 
> eta: my opinion is that husbandry issues would be effecting her tank mate too.


Just speaking from a layman's point of view I would totally agree with you. I'm sorry you had to have this horrible experience. But I'm sure this will help someone somewhere save one of their frogs. 
It hits home for me because two weeks ago I separated my pair of Bahkuis because I didn't want the female to get "burned out" They had been laying a clutch of 6-8 eggs every 7-10 days for the last six weeks. I felt that was enough, she needed a break so she got moved into her own home for a bit. 
I hope all of this just serves to reinforce the need for separating pairs to give them a break from constant breeding.


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## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> So the stress and over exertion from constant breeding weakened her immune system to the point she couldn't fight of the Septicemia?


I'm not sure over-exertion is really a part since that implies that there was a large amount of muscular expenditure.... With respect to "over breeding", keep in mind that a number of nutrients that are important to egg formation and deposition are also important for other systems including the immune system. Depletion of these nutritients could impair the ability to respond to an infection. 

Some comments

Ed


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## frogface

I've got the report. I'll try to get it posted up tonight.



Ed said:


> I'm not sure over-exertion is really a part since that implies that there was a large amount of muscular expenditure.... With respect to "over breeding", keep in mind that a number of nutrients that are important to egg formation and deposition are also important for other systems including the immune system. Depletion of these nutritients could impair the ability to respond to an infection.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


And in her situation, she was already giving bad eggs. So, she may have gone into it with poor nutrition. While I was supplementing her with Repashy Calcium Plus and Vit A, I was also sucking it out of her with all those eggs 

eta: I don't mean to imply that I received her as a malnourished frog. She appeared very healthy and bouncy from the start.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Ed said:


> I'm not sure over-exertion is really a part since that implies that there was a large amount of muscular expenditure.... With respect to "over breeding", keep in mind that a number of nutrients that are important to egg formation and deposition are also important for other systems including the immune system. Depletion of these nutritients could impair the ability to respond to an infection.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Ed, I guess "over-exertion" was the wrong choice of words. I didn't mean to imply that there was an large amount of muscle expenditure. But I liken it to humans that don't take care of themselves, ie not enough sleep, improper nutrition, stress, etc. They get "run down" for lack of a better phrase, and the immune system gets suppressed and that's what leads decreased resistance towards illness. Perhaps in this case the Lorenzos had engaged in too much breeding activity and the move to the new tank provided just enough additional stress to suppress the immune system? I know we'll never know for sure, but it's a possibility.


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## billschwinn

frogface said:


> I've got the report. I'll try to get it posted up tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> And in her situation, she was already giving bad eggs. So, she may have gone into it with poor nutrition. While I was supplementing her with Repashy Calcium Plus and Vit A, I was also sucking it out of her with all those eggs
> 
> eta: I don't mean to imply that I received her as a malnourished frog. She appeared very healthy and bouncy from the start.


I agree with ED On this one.In fact, It could just be a case of it was it's time to pass, or a predisposition towards weakness genetic or otherwise. Also, I would like to say again that eggs that die do not mean it is the females fault. It could also be weak or deformed sperm from the mail, Bill


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## frogface

Here is the report: 

eta: Ok trying again. I don't really know how to make it better. Just made it a little bigger. Anyone who knows how to make it more legible, feel free.


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## frogface

By the way, I did not name my frog Lorenza. When I made the appt, the girl on the phone asked for my frog's name. I told her that my frogs don't have names and that this frog is a female Lorenzo so maybe just put that down. Thus Lorenza was born, lol.


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## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Ed, I guess "over-exertion" was the wrong choice of words. I didn't mean to imply that there was an large amount of muscle expenditure. But I liken it to humans that don't take care of themselves, ie not enough sleep, improper nutrition, stress, etc. They get "run down" for lack of a better phrase, and the immune system gets suppressed and that's what leads decreased resistance towards illness.


In the above scenario, one of the things that contributes to the stress is a increased demand for certain nutrients including those that are needed to support the immune system. This doesn't mean that there was an increased cortocosteroid increase due to other stressors (such as changes in enclosures, capture, loss of a territoriy), which is known to correlate directly to a reduced immune function... 

I think the difference between the picture I have and the one you have, is that I'm looking more holistically at the overall impact on the physiology. 

Some comments

Ed


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## frogface

Ed, is the necropsy report pretty much what you expected? 

I've asked Adam to fix my images. Hopefully he'll be able to make them more readable.


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## Ed

*If I could read them.... 

Ed


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## Shinosuke

There's not much I could do with the cleaning up the images but I was able to double their size, which I think helps a bit once you expand them. I can't promise the pictures will stay up forever, so read while the reading's good!


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## frogface

Adam, thank you for the gigantic pics! It really helps 

Sorry if you guys are bored with this, but, I want to try to sort out what happened. 

I forwarded the email from the vet to Ed, last night, because I couldn't wait for Adam to blow up my pictures. Ed, may I post your reply? I noticed your reply to me did not include issues with the ovaries. Did you feel the changes in the ovaries were just from decomp? What do you think happened? Below is a list of what I gather from the what my vet said, the necropsy, and, your email. Please correct me where I'm off. 

Bloating due to kidney and liver infection from bacteria. 

The bacteria is not uncommon but was multiplying due to compromised immune system, resulting in septicemia. 

Compromised immune system due to what? Over-breeding causing depletion of nutrients which led to the organ issues which led to impaired immune system? Multifocal follicular degeneration. Is this evidence of over-breeding or just incidental? 

Or

Where there liver and kidney problems, initially, that impaired the immune system and that's why the progression to septicemia?

I must know these things


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## Ed

frogface said:


> I noticed your reply to me did not include issues with the ovaries. Did you feel the changes in the ovaries were just from decomp?


Sorry, I missed the line on the ovaries. No, that wasn't from the decomposition. It could have been due to disruption of the ovulation cycle by any of several things ranging from the actual infection, to some other reason the cycle was disrupted. It is also possible that the ovaries themselves were infected (or even the start of the infection (as happens in some birds and reptiles). Insufficient information to make a determination. 



frogface said:


> Bloating due to kidney and liver infection from bacteria.


Better to say bloating was due to damage to kidneys and liver from the infection. Damage can be a result of bacterial toxins, break down of the tissues and/or bacteria and/or actual infection of those tissues. 



frogface said:


> The bacteria is not uncommon but was multiplying due to compromised immune system, resulting in septicemia.


The bacteria are extremely common in the enclosures as well as the frogs themselves. Typically opportunistic in thier mode of infection. They are also potential zoonotics see Aeromonas hydrophila - Pathogen Safety Data Sheets - Public Health Agency of Canada 



frogface said:


> Compromised immune system due to what? Over-breeding causing depletion of nutrients which led to the organ issues which led to impaired immune system?


Probably cannot be determined. 

Ed


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## Nismo95

I just read this entire thing... Late night with nothing to do.. lets browse DB threads... Kris.. From the begining I couldnt wait to finally reach a page with pictures of froglets.. I never knew about this morph before and I must say they are incredible looking.. Was feeling really good about the recovery and than BAM hit like a hammer when I saw the poor thing dead.. I could only imagine how you felt seeing her like that.. I know you'll get another eventually, and you will be raising good eggs, good tads, and healthy crazy froglets one day.. You are an amazing person for everything you've done for the DF community... Keep it up lady! you set the bar high in my opinion and you give my girlfriend and I something to shoot for. We hope to be a valued asset to this hobby as much as you have been!


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## frogface

Thank you so much Ed. Now I feel satisfied. 

And thank you Nismo95 for your kind words.


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## frogface

Just real quick, before I put this thread behind me:

I tossed another frog in the ARS with no ill effects. This was in a large enough container that the frog was able to choose to soak or not. He sat right down in the solution and was fine. Wanted to make sure that this was said out loud and in print, in case anyone was still wondering if there was anything other than disease at play with the Lorenzo's death. 

Also, I want to apologize to Avian and Exotic Animal Care for my freak-out and finger pointing. They were really wonderful and patient with me. Good people. 

And thank you, everyone, for participating in my thread. I'm sorry it didn't work out the way we wanted but I'll be back with a new Lorenzo Clutch Watch some day


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## gilliusis

It was a pleasure to read and write, even if the end is unhappy ...!


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