# Wow why are Pumilo Frogs so Expensive?



## that Frog Guy (May 13, 2012)

I just got back from my local reptile show and a guy was selling all his frogs for 25-30 each (Very Cheap). He had Azureus, Cobalt, Leucomela, etc.

He shared a table with someone else and all that guy had were these very very small red and blue frogs that he said were called Pumilo and he wanted 200 each!

I have never seen frogs anywhere near that price! I would say that the average price of a poison dart frog would be around 50 each.

Why are they so much?

Do they die easily or something?


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## Daleo (Jan 31, 2012)

*Re: Wow why are Pumilio Frogs so Expensive?*

They are relatively rare depending on locale, but they also have to be raised by the parent frogs, which means slower production, and last they have one of the highest mortality rates of CB dart frogs


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

*Re: Wow why are Pumilio Frogs so Expensive?*



Daleo said:


> They are relatively rare depending on locale, but they also have to be raised by the parent frogs, which means slower production, and last they have one of the highest mortality rates of CB dart frogs


All fair points, but let's be honest,
due to the "Pumilio" craze, demand has driven the price up too.

We see it all the time.

Zaparo are rare, hard to raise and also have a high mortality rate (especially newly shipped animals & froglets) but yet those don't cost anywhere near as much. Why? Because they're not in demand.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

The price of the frogs reflects the costs to collect, import, care for, and breed them. Pumilio frogs breed much less than your average Tinc or Leuc. Their tadpoles can only eat eggs from the mother or they will perish. As a result, froglets are few and far between, and much more expensive. Some may find the price outrageous, but those who purchased Oophaga Sylvaticia from UE spent much much more than two or three hundred dollars. As far as price goes, Pums are between the medium and medium-high price range. Ranitomeya are usually medium-low to medium price range, and Tincs, Leucs, Auratus being in the low range.


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## Daleo (Jan 31, 2012)

*Re: Wow why are Pumilio Frogs so Expensive?*



Gamble said:


> All fair points, but let's be honest,
> due to the "Pumilio" craze, demand has driven the price up too.
> 
> We see it all the time.
> ...


I agree. They're kinda like Pokemon right now. Gotta catch 'em all. Lol.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Sounds like you got yourself an escudo. These frogs on top of what everybody else said are very difficult to breed and care for compared to other pumilio. Also I think they are stopping imports of them. 

Just my knowledge


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Just wait till you see the $1000 granulifera and histronica. What you saw were probably Escudo, which run anywhere from $400-$700 a pair. 

D


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

*Re: Wow why are Pumilio Frogs so Expensive?*



Gamble said:


> All fair points, but let's be honest,
> due to the "Pumilio" craze, demand has driven the price up too.
> 
> We see it all the time.
> ...


I disagree. About 10 years ago, captive raised Bastimentos cost $125 each. 10 years later Bastimentos cost $125 each. Sure, there are rarer morphs that cost more, but I have not noticed an overall inflation of prices.
Keep in mind that many pumilio pairs may produce only a few offspring in a year, while Tincs could plausibly produce 100 froglets in that same time. (I'm not saying that is healthy for them, just possible)
I worked with a group of wild Zapparo when they first came into the country. I was having success with mine, the same time Tor Linbo was producing his first Zapps. Zapps can lay clutches of 20 to 30 eggs, every couple weeks, through their breeding cycle. 
Pumilio production, on average, is MUCH slower than any other frog I've ever worked with.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: Wow why are Pumilio Frogs so Expensive?*



Pumilo said:


> I disagree. About 10 years ago, captive raised Bastimentos cost $125 each. 10 years later Bastimentos cost $125 each. Sure, there are rarer morphs that cost more, but I have not noticed an overall inflation of prices.
> Keep in mind that many pumilio pairs may produce only a few offspring in a year, while Tincs could plausibly produce 100 froglets in that same time. (I'm not saying that is healthy for them, just possible)
> I worked with a group of wild Zapparo when they first came into the country. I was having success with mine, the same time Tor Linbo was producing his first Zapps. Zapps can lay clutches of 20 to 30 eggs, every couple weeks, through their breeding cycle.
> Pumilio production, on average, is MUCH slower than any other frog I've ever worked with.


I agree. In fact, some of the easier pumilio to breed (Mancreek, El Dorado, Cristobal) seem to be going down a little in price. They still won't ever be as low as tinc, leucs, etc. I get maybe get 2 pumilio babies every 2-4 months. I can get 6-8 larger frogs eggs every couple weeks, if I pull the eggs.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

*Re: Wow why are Pumilio Frogs so Expensive?*



phender said:


> I agree. In fact, some of the easier pumilio to breed (Mancreek, El Dorado, Cristobal) seem to be going down a little in price. They still won't ever be as low as tinc, leucs, etc. I get maybe get 2 pumilio babies every 2-4 months. I can get 6-8 larger frogs eggs every couple weeks, if I pull the eggs.


Good point, Phil. 10 years ago you could not buy any pumilio morph for less than $125 (unless you had very good friends). Now you can.
Further, if you take overall inflation into account, then that same $125 you pay for a Bastimentos now, is actually much cheaper than it used to be. A 10 year average in US inflation is about 28%. If you take that into account, the price of a Bastimentos *should* be $160 each. 
So in a way, the price has actually dropped quite a bit over 10 years.


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

If you are referring to the ones at the Taylor show, I was just there, and they were nice. I don't know specific locales of Pumillo but they had completely blue undersides and strawberry red tops. There might have been some blue jeans too. 

They were nice frogs!

That vendor was good, but also had MANY wild caught Suriname Cobalts if you looked closely at the label. You don't want to support the trade of Wild Caught frogs unless you know more about where they came from. I'm guessing this wasn't a safe import of frogs into the U.S. seeing as though there were around 20 WC frogs at his table.


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

Funny, someone just posted on here, and they bought all 5 of the pairs available at the show!

Ironic!

Will


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

brinkerh420 said:


> If you are referring to the ones at the Taylor show, I was just there, and they were nice. I don't know specific locales of Pumillo but they had completely blue undersides and strawberry red tops. There might have been some blue jeans too.
> 
> They were nice frogs!
> 
> That vendor was good, but also had MANY wild caught Suriname Cobalts if you looked closely at the label. You don't want to support the trade of Wild Caught frogs unless you know more about where they came from. I'm guessing this wasn't a safe import of frogs into the U.S. seeing as though there were around 20 WC frogs at his table.


Your description sounds like escudo pumilio.
Not necessarily supporting wild caught frogs, but I just want to point out that this doesn't necessarily mean they were illegal imports. I've seen wild caught cobalts before, and 20 isn't an outrageously high number... hundreds sometimes thousands of frogs can come in at once. Obviously I haven't looked into this particular seller or anything, but on face value I wouldn't necessarily suspect them to be smuggled. 

Back on topic, it really boils down to supply and demand. The demand is pretty high for them, but the supply is very limited because, as others have said, most reproduce much slower than other frogs.
Bryan


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

maybe the fact that they are so totally freakin' gorgeous adds to the price too.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

They are very tiny though.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

I dunno....I remember CR blue jeans Pumilio languishing in common pet stores for $30.00 apiece because they were imported in such vast #'s, nobody wanted them. It wasnt until CR/panama started to really limit their exports did the price go up. However.....at that same time period...CB pumilio were still expensive because no-one was having consistant luck in breeding them. If I could have only seen the future prices on these guys and the discovery of how to successfully breed them, I'd have jumped feet-first into keeping pumilio back then.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm not talking about improperly collected, untreated, disease ridden, wild frogs that died by the hundreds or thousands. I'm talking about from the time the hobby began to have any success with them. If you wanted a dead $30 pumilio, I could have sold you one a couple months ago!


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## that Frog Guy (May 13, 2012)

brinkerh420 said:


> If you are referring to the ones at the Taylor show, I was just there, and they were nice. I don't know specific locales of Pumillo but they had completely blue undersides and strawberry red tops. There might have been some blue jeans too.
> 
> They were nice frogs!
> 
> That vendor was good, but also had MANY wild caught Suriname Cobalts if you looked closely at the label. You don't want to support the trade of Wild Caught frogs unless you know more about where they came from. I'm guessing this wasn't a safe import of frogs into the U.S. seeing as though there were around 20 WC frogs at his table.


Yep, that is where I saw them.
What did the label say to indicate that they were wild caught?
I bought a Cobalt a few months ago from him and it is doing great.


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

that Frog Guy said:


> Yep, that is where I saw them.
> What did the label say to indicate that they were wild caught?
> I bought a Cobalt a few months ago from him and it is doing great.


Some were WC, some were CB, I saw about 20 that said WC and about 20 that said Sean Stewart Line. There was two stickers on each container, one said Suriname Cobalt or Leucomelas or whatever the case, and the other said either WC 2009 or something or Sean Stewart.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Another point I did not see in this thread is that they are not easy to breed and do not breed in the volume some other species do.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

They seem common (because pretty much everybody has them) but in reality you see more adult breeders in people's collections them you actually see froglets for sale. 
When somebody has at least one pair of pumilio, they often include it in there signature, show it off, ect, and because people like to show off there pumilio, the result is they seem a lot more common then they really are.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

frog dude said:


> They seem common (because pretty much everybody has them) but in reality you see more adult breeders in people's collections them you actually see froglets for sale.
> When somebody has at least one pair of pumilio, they often include it in there signature, show it off, ect, and because people like to show off there pumilio, the result is they seem a lot more common then they really are.


I guess some people "show them off," I like to post pictures of mine not because they are some sort of status symbol, but because I really like them (especially when I find froglets).
I think that they can definitely appear to be common because of the imports. With the thousands that come in some years, you see reptile stores on KS and at pet shows offering wc pumilio at lower prices (and often in poor health...) but they just seem to be so available. After the initial wave of frogs comes in and are sold, many unfortunately die or do not breed. Then there really aren't too many cb pumilio froglets from that import, which is why those prices stay high.
Bryan


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Just because there are a number of people with them does not mean there are a lot available. There are few people producing froglets and even the larger scale people still do so in rather small numbers.


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## dartfanatic (Sep 24, 2012)

*Re: Wow why are Pumilio Frogs so Expensive?*



Gamble said:


> All fair points, but let's be honest,
> due to the "Pumilio" craze, demand has driven the price up too.
> 
> We see it all the time.
> ...


Although, you can still get many wild caught pumilio specimens easily and cheap? Not that I promote that at all but I'd argue that it has way more to do with the obligate nature of the frogs, the considerably smaller clutch size compared to most Dendrobates, and the market being flooded with lower cost frogs, rather than the "pumilio craze". I'd argue the "pumilio craze" is actually just simple economics...... Less supply=more demand=higher prices.


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## BYHGAB (Jun 13, 2011)

To the op, i was at that same show and spoke with the guys that were selling them. Those were captive bred escuado. He was selling for 200 each and he has a pair for 400. They had completely red backs with red going down the upper portions of the legs.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

kyle1745 said:


> Another point I did not see in this thread is that they are not easy to breed and do not breed in the volume some other species do.


Doug and I both mentioned this at the bottom of page 1.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I guess some people "show them off," I like to post pictures of mine not because they are some sort of status symbol, but because I really like them (especially when I find froglets).


They are nice frogs. There is no shame in posting a pic of favorites every now and then.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

kyle1745 said:


> Just because there are a number of people with them does not mean there are a lot available. There are few people producing froglets and even the larger scale people still do so in rather small numbers.


To add to your point Kyle, There have been literally thousands of pumilio imported in the last 8 years and yet there are not that many f1's, let alone f2's...that says a lot


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

The thing with the WC Pumilio is, the large majority of the importers/wholesalers that bring these in and distribute them, do nothing to treat the frogs for parasites, which are always harbored by WC frogs. In the short interim of transport and then wholesaleign them out, these frogs "appear" to be in good health because they have not lost much weight yet. However, the stress they undergo from being shipped 2-3-4 times allows the parasites to really overwhelm what was a healthy frog. Frog that point, its a quick slide to starvation and death. The key to dealing with fragile imported WC frogs is quarantine, fecal/chytrid/ranavirus testing and treatment for parasites, and get them eating and supplemented immediatly. The majority of importers and wholesalers do not do this because its adds to the price of the frog, and they just want to move them along in quantity as fast and as many as they can. Thats why PROPERLY imported pumilo can be as expensive as CB. 

Doug, Who was selling $30.00 WC pumilio?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

pdfCrazy said:


> Doug, Who was selling $30.00 WC pumilio?


I don't know. Either I am misunderstanding you now, or you misunderstood me, earlier. You are the one who said you used to see them all the time for $30. I don't doubt that at all. I've heard the stories. 
I simply said that those $30 pums from 10 years ago died by the thousands, and that if you wanted a dead, $30 pumilio, I could have sold you one a couple months ago. It was partially a bad joke (aren't all of mine? ), and partially a statement that I choose not to count those as this thread is discussing possibly overly inflated prices due to demand. (Which I don't believe is the case)


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Lol, yepp, misunderstanding on my part Doug, sorry. I read it too fast and read something into it that wasnt there. NM.


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