# Terribilis dying please help....



## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

Around a little over a month ago I bought 4 yellow terribilis from the white Plains reptile show from blackjungle. They had look like they were doing great. Eating ravenously an so on. A week ago a frog randomly died, he was covered in substrate and lying on his back. Later that day a second died, he was motionless at feeding time. Randomly he kind of flipped around and looked dead, but like 20 minutes later he stood back up so we put him into another container to see if he'd get better. That's where he died. I kept watch on the other two and noticed they became very lethargic and only moved to get springtails off instead of eating them. Springtails seemed to have had a population explosion in the tank. The frogs seemed to climb all over the tank and seemed arboreal which was odd. Now fast forward to a few days ago I moved the 2 left into a smaller tank to keep an eye on them. Again, they didn't seem to eat at all, but moved a little more. Now yesterday I woke up to find another dead. After a couple hours the last of them died.He was stretched out and didn't move, but he was still breathing so we left him and he eventually died. I am really nervous as they were kept in a split tank with other frogs bought at the expo. The male in that group has just started calling as well. Is anybody able to help to diagnose what possibly may have happened? Could it be stress from the springtails climbing on them? Could it be chytrid(God i hope not)?The last thing I would want to do would be dismantling the entire tank and moving the other frogs out, but I will do it if necessary. Any help would be really appreciated.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Could you provide some more details about how you are keeping them?

-Details about the the terrarium
-Temperatures
-Humidity
-Feeding schedule
-Vitamins/supplements you are using
-any other information about your care routine


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

carola1155 said:


> Could you provide some more details about how you are keeping them?
> 
> -Details about the the terrarium
> -Temperatures
> ...


-The tank is half of a 55 gallon, them being on one side and other frogs on the otherside.(figured they were pretty young still and would separate them when theu got older)
-The temperature is a fairly constant 71 degrees
-Humidity is maybe a little high, the hygrometer says 100% but misting is only like once, maybe twice a week and the tank has a vent so I wouldn't be too sure if it's acurate
-feeding is every other day
-supplementing repashy calcium + every feeding


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Did you say that you bought both species of frogs at the same time at the same show (same vendor?)? Was the tank new when you put all of them in? When I first read your account, I thought maybe some sort of toxicity, but if the other frogs that were in the tank are ok, that probably isn't it. I suppose it could have been from stress, but I have never had anything happen that quickly. Any chance they were too cold or worse, too hot, in the container they were in on the way home? So sorry you lost them. I can imagine that must be really stressful for you. 

Mark


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> Did you say that you bought both species of frogs at the same time at the same show (same vendor?)? Was the tank new when you put all of them in? When I first read your account, I thought maybe some sort of toxicity, but if the other frogs that were in the tank are ok, that probably isn't it. I suppose it could have been from stress, but I have never had anything happen that quickly. Any chance they were too cold or worse, too hot, in the container they were in on the way home? So sorry you lost them. I can imagine that must be really stressful for you.
> 
> Mark


The tank hasn't had anything in it before we got the frogs. I got the other frogs from a different vendor at the same show at the same time. I wouldn't think the ride home would've had much impact on them because I took precautions to make sure they weren't too cold and made sure it never got too hot in the car. What I find odd is that they didn't die all around the same time. It was almost like it was 2 waves, a week apart. I don't know if the tank had anything in it that was poisonous to the frogs like some plant was not quite properly washed maybe? The other frogs in the other half of the tank seem to be thriving though, and they're thumbnails so I'd think they'd be more susceptible than the larger terribilis. I am hoping that the divider in the middle is enough to not effect the other frogs. Thanksfor the reply, I'd really hate to lose any other frogs, it's pretty stressful to not have any clue on what happened.


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Even separated they are still in the same direct vicinity which could lead to a cross contamination issue between groups. So sorry you are having to go through this.


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## tongo (Jul 29, 2007)

have pictures of your tank?


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

TheCoop said:


> Even separated they are still in the same direct vicinity which could lead to a cross contamination issue between groups. So sorry you are having to go through this.


That's what I was thinking, but hoping I wouldn't have to. I am really hoping it wasn't disease, but I really don't have anyway to find out. Any suggestions on getting that kind of help?



tongo said:


> have pictures of your tank?


This is the side that has thumbnailsome though it's slightly more grown in now.

This is the side that had the terribilis (sorry about the awful pucture, lights turned off so had to use a flashlight)
 The terribilis seemed to hang out on the top kind of, mostly going on the substrate only to eat.


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

Here a picture of the whole tank, the right side is where the terribilis were. The black x's are where the terribilis mostly hung out, which is odd because they are supposed to be terrestrial. If it makes a difference, the frogs were 5-6 months old when they werected purchased.


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## tongo (Jul 29, 2007)

This may just be a guess but I would think they may have been compacted. From the looks of your tank there is a lot of loose dirt and exposed substrate. Terribilis are known to be big eaters and they could have swallowed up some loose substrate and become compacted. Could be a reason they stop eating.


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

tongo said:


> This may just be a guess but I would think they may have been compacted. From the looks of your tank there is a lot of loose dirt and exposed substrate. Terribilis are known to be big eaters and they could have swallowed up some loose substrate and become compacted. Could be a reason they stop eating.


Do you think that could've happened to all of them? That thought really never came to mind but it seems like another possibility. Thanks for the reply!


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

So a few weeks after you purchased them they started to decline.
Have you contacted Black Jungle? Maybe other people are having issues also.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

It looks like in the one picture, they're a little light on leaf litter, so they'd be walking around in and eating the substrate a lot. The possibility of them eating substrate was raised, but also they don't like walking around directly on it.

I'm not sure how quickly foot rot affects them or if it can cause death, but I do know they're prone to it and it seems like they were trying to avoid the bottom of the enclosure. I throw a bunch of new litter in my terribs enclosure about once a month or so, just to keep things relatively dry because of this.

As other has said, so sorry you had this happen.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

what are you using as substrate....when you cleaned the roots of the plants you used, was there any remaining perlite in the substrate? Where the frogs hung out has to be some sort of clue...was the substrate wet from wicking water up from the drainage area? Since teribbs are voracious eaters, any possibility they ate substrate material while eating springtails?? I feel so bad for you...I hope that you don't give up...


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Did you quarantine the frogs before introducing them into your viv? Its only been about 5 weeks since the White Plains show.


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

You are going to get a wide variety of responses to a question like this because there are so many things that could go wrong; parasites / stress, environmental, bacterial, impaction, etc. 

I would find a local vet that can work with your remaining animal, and find out what your necropsy options are. If you are having difficultly finding a local exotics vet, start calling around to universities with strong vet programs. I am in Texas, so I work with the vets at A&M who have exotics experience. 

It is also helpful in situations like this to collect multiple animals for necropsy when they start going down. This provides multiple reference points, providing better guidance to you on what could be going wrong. There's no guarantee that a necropsy will yield a definitive answer, but it's better than suggestions on a forum (no offense to any of us helping here...we just don't have sufficient data).

Sorry to hear about your losses.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jmule said:


> Do you think that could've happened to all of them? That thought really never came to mind but it seems like another possibility. Thanks for the reply!


While impaction can occur from ingestion of substrates the hobby tends to exaggerate the risk of this happening. People tend to forget that ingestion of soils in the wild is a large source of the minerals they need in their diet and they are able to pass these materials through their digestive tract. 

It is highly unlikely that all of the animals would present symptoms from impaction at exactly the same time but this should also be easily determined if they are necropsied. 

I see that you have 100% humidity in your enclosure. What are you using to measure the humidity and how much ventilation do you have? While there are a number of diseases that can case that sort of symptoms, there are also at least a couple of environmental ones. 

It could also be due to a combination of reasons. 

Regardless of the cause you should strip down the side where the terribilis were kept and disinfect it since if it was due to an infection the pathogen may still be present in the enclosure. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

Ed said:


> Jmule said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think that could've happened to all of them? That thought really never came to mind but it seems like another possibility. Thanks for the reply!
> ...


I'm using some thermo-hygrometer from neherp. Do you know where a possible place to get a frog necropsy done would be? And how much it would cost? Theres a couple inches of screen on top for ventilation. Do you think that the entire tank needs to be stripped down or just the side with the terribilis? I'd hate to have to disturb the thumbnails on the otherside, but if it really need to be done I will. Thanks for your reply.


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> So a few weeks after you purchased them they started to decline.
> Have you contacted Black Jungle? Maybe other people are having issues also.


I did contact blackjungle. They said that when when multiple frogs drop dead at once, that they tend to think it's environmental. They also said terribilis are notorious for "toxing out" from a heavy waste load. Does that mean stool?


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Never heard that one. I have had multiple breeding groups of mint, yellows and oranges in tanks for 6+ years without do a thing other then thinning out plants. Really sounds like they got to cold or hot at some point or stress if over crowded.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

If they were compacted they would bloat up.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Jmule said:


> They also said terribilis are notorious for "toxing out" from a heavy waste load. Does that mean stool?


That sounds like a load of crap to me (pardon the pun)


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Jmule said:


> This is the side that had the terribilis (sorry about the awful pucture, lights turned off so had to use a flashlight)
> The terribilis seemed to hang out on the top kind of, mostly going on the substrate only to eat.



Is that a power chord going into their half of the tank? I'm not inclined to believe it's impaction; as Ed said, it's an over-stated risk in the hobby. I'm more inclined to believe it's either pathogen based, chemical based, or, possibly, electrocution? if that is in fact a power chord.


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

TarantulaGuy said:


> Jmule said:
> 
> 
> > This is the side that had the terribilis (sorry about the awful pucture, lights turned off so had to use a flashlight)
> ...


No, that power cord isn't in the tank, it's just from the light to take a picture after the lights when off.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jmule said:


> I did contact blackjungle. They said that when when multiple frogs drop dead at once, that they tend to think it's environmental. They also said terribilis are notorious for "toxing out" from a heavy waste load. Does that mean stool?


Not necessarily but that can be a contributor. 

With amphibians and reptiles many of the pathogens that can cause issues/death are opportunistic organisms that are already in the environment. If there are conditions that increase the numbers of these organisms then your increasing the exposure to them by the frogs which in turn increases the risk of acquiring a one or more of these as a disease causing organism. 

There are a lot of environmental conditions that can contribute to this issue such as the substrate being too wet or excess supplements piled in one spot (these are strictly examples and aren't always indicative of a problem). 

What makes the problem even more likely is if there are conditions that cause immune suppression such as severe stressors. 

The reason I asked about how you were measuring humidity, a humidity of 100% if accurately measured is of some concern. It generally means that there is little air circulation with the outside as a result you can get issues with CO2 asphyxiation or even excess moisture on the surfaces which can contribute to contraction of diseases. 

I have to admit that when I see a large mortality event with the same symptoms, I generally evaluate the environmental conditions while trying to rule out disease. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

it just seems so odd that they were off the substrate, at about the same level...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> it just seems so odd that they were off the substrate, at about the same level...


That doesn't mean that the infection couldn't have already begun in the frogs. 

One of the things to remember is that depending on the species, if you see an escalation of behaviors where the frogs seem to suddenly start "searching" or looking for a way out, it is often an indication that something environmental is most likely out of whack. 

The problem is that the final symptoms can be a result of many causes, infections, death from overheating, disruption of osmotic control to name just a few. 

*As a total hypothetical* there are wide variations in salt content of the ground coconut used in many tanks. It is also known that environmental conditions of excess salt exposure has a negative effect and if the disruption to the frogs' ability to control its own water balance was past a certain point, the frog would be unlikely to survive even after being removed from the substrate unless some action was taken to restore the osmotic balance. *Note this is a total hypothetical example for discussion only*


some comments 

Ed


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## Darrell S (Jan 9, 2011)

Do you think there is possibility of maybe CO2 or other fumes - gasses , Do you have a fan to circulate the dead air on the bottom of the tank ? Just have to ask . I hope your having luck .


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## Swehenrik (Feb 9, 2014)

Sorry for your loss.

Are you sure about the humidity when you only mist once or twice a week?

// Henrik


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## Darrell S (Jan 9, 2011)

Sorry for your loss, can you give us an update please .


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

Darrell S said:


> Sorry for your loss, can you give us an update please .


Sadly, the 4 all died. I ended up taking apart the tank and now have it sterilized and rebuilt. It's disappointing to have frogs die and not know the cause of death, but there's nothing else I can do now.


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

Quarantine all new frog purchases!!!


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## hp192 (Feb 28, 2016)

The fact that they seemed to be avoiding the substrate and were all at the same level in the tank seems to point heavily toward an environmental problem. In my experience, my Terribs climb occasionally seem to always prefer being down on the substrate. My guess is that there was either something on the substrate that they didn't like or the temp/humidity at that level was intolerable. 
You seemed to express some doubt in the accuracy of your hygrometer. The two main tools in measuring the frog's environment are the thermometer and hygrometer...if either is on the fritz, it ought to be replaced immediately. I find it difficult to believe that you can have 100% humidity only misting once or twice a week AND with a vent on the tank. 
Good luck with your next tank...I'm guessing that if you get a new hygrometer, combined with the tank sanitation, you'll be successful. Sucks you had to go through this though.


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

CAPTAIN RON said:


> Quarantine all new frog purchases!!!


 I know, I feel incredibly stupid for not taking the small amount of time to quarantine frogs. I'll be sure to do that in the future.


hp192 said:


> The fact that they seemed to be avoiding the substrate and were all at the same level in the tank seems to point heavily toward an environmental problem. In my experience, my Terribs climb occasionally seem to always prefer being down on the substrate. My guess is that there was either something on the substrate that they didn't like or the temp/humidity at that level was intolerable.
> You seemed to express some doubt in the accuracy of your hygrometer. The two main tools in measuring the frog's environment are the thermometer and hygrometer...if either is on the fritz, it ought to be replaced immediately. I find it difficult to believe that you can have 100% humidity only misting once or twice a week AND with a vent on the tank.
> Good luck with your next tank...I'm guessing that if you get a new hygrometer, combined with the tank sanitation, you'll be successful. Sucks you had to go through this though.


Thanks for the tips. I'll be sure to get a new hygrometer. Is there any that you'd recommend? The one I bought was from neherp for 20$ so I trusted it. I have multiple other tanks that are perfectly fine and thriving including the other side of the split tank they were in. Both sides got equal care and treatment put into them so that's what stumped me about them dying. The side of the tank they were in has been put together and completely redone and sterilized. It's really disappointing and saddening to have frogs die and not be able to do anything, makes you feel terrible. There's not much else I can do now to remedy the problem besides taking precautions in the future which I'll be certain to do.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

hp192 said:


> The two main tools in measuring the frog's environment are the thermometer and hygrometer...if either is on the fritz, it ought to be replaced immediately.


No, you don't need that stuff, don't waste your money. Most hygrometers are near worthless and not properly calibrated anyhow. If your tanks have a little ventilation, look moist, and your plants look good, your humidity is probably fine. If conditions are good for your plants, its fine for the frogs too. Temps are fine too, if you keep room temps and don't have a hot type of lighting. A room thermometer is all that is needed, but you can get an infrared thermometer to spot check your tanks if you're that worried about it.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

^^. This. I have an ir thermometer that I occasionally use but that's it. No hygrometer or in tank thermometer, they're both totally unnecessary.


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## dynekevin (May 24, 2011)

The others gave a lot of great advice. Could be a number of things. In my opinion without ruling anything else out. Your tank looks dry. And the lack of plants fulling growing in further decreases the humidity. 

All of my tanks have a nice coat of condensation on the glass. And I generally use that as a rule of a high humidity (not fooling with gauges). I also keep 1/2 - 1inch of water in the false bottom. 

Personally, I would up the misting to at least once a day. (I mist 1 to 2 times a day).

Some thoughts,
Kevin

Sorry about your loss!


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

Alright, thanks guys. I am almost starting to believe that they were sick because the environmental conditions were the same in all the other tanks I have and nothing bad has happened in them. I still feel awful for them dying though.


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm interested to see what you might find out. I just lost two mint terrib froglets within two-three weeks of purchase from the same source as your yellows. Both were exhibiting similar symptoms to what you described. First darts I've ever lost, and they were being kept in quarantine set ups identical to all others I've used in the past with no problems. 

I did freeze both the bodies, does anyone know of a source to get necropsies and about what that might cost?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

ryangreenway said:


> I did freeze both the bodies, does anyone know of a source to get necropsies and about what that might cost?


Did you refrigerate, or actually freeze the remains, and for how long? This can impact the amount of information that a necropsy can provide.


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

They've been frozen, since Thursday and Saturday.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ryangreenway said:


> I did freeze both the bodies, does anyone know of a source to get necropsies and about what that might cost?


Since you froze them your necropsy isn't going to be of any real value. At this point all you can do is swab them for chytrid and ranavirus. Never freeze an animal that is going to be necropsied. The reason is that the freezing breaks the cell walls and speeds decomposition of the tissues particularly while thawing. It prevents the identification of damaged organs (as they are all now damaged) or areas that could have been damaged due to viral or bacterial infections. 

Swab them, double bag them and discard them in the proper solid waste stream. 

some comments 

Ed


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

Thanks Ed. I had looked into necropsies and freezing/refrigerating the specimens more after that last post and realized my mistake. At least I have the knowledge for future use now. 



Ed said:


> Since you froze them your necropsy isn't going to be of any real value. At this point all you can do is swab them for chytrid and ranavirus. Never freeze an animal that is going to be necropsied. The reason is that the freezing breaks the cell walls and speeds decomposition of the tissues particularly while thawing. It prevents the identification of damaged organs (as they are all now damaged) or areas that could have been damaged due to viral or bacterial infections.
> 
> Swab them, double bag them and discard them in the proper solid waste stream.
> 
> ...


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