# frog copper sensitivity



## pygmycory (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm wondering how sensitive frogs are to copper. My home has copper pipes, and I recently realized that this could be why I haven't had success with freshwater shrimp. My fish, geckos, plants, and terrestrial invertebrates are all fine, but I've read (online, not a peer-reviewed source) that shrimp like Neocaridina are very sensitive to copper. Now I know it is a potential problem, I use only cold water which I run it before using, which I wasn't doing when I had the shrimp. I use Seachem Prime in my aquarium water. The water here is neutral and soft, so I'd like to use it for my frogs when I get them.

How sensitive are dart frogs to copper? Do you think it is likely to cause problems?

Thanks


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I don't know about the frogs, but that's _absolutely_ why you couldn't keep shrimp. They can't stand even a hint of copper.

IMO, I wouldn't risk it. Just use rainwater or distilled water instead as much as possible. Those have the added benefit of not dirtying the glass at all.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

I would pull a water report for your area. You can get a buildup of elements in your tank similar to the way salt accumulates in a SW tank when you get evaporation. Invertebrates are especially sensitive. Ive used treated tap for yrs with an African bullfrog & pacman with no ill effects, BUT their substrate is changed every month. If you dont change the substrate you risk them toxing out from their own secretions. I would say the same thing would happen in a vivarium with elements in your tap. 

These are the reef tanks of the frog hobby.


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## Frogsarefun (Nov 25, 2015)

Hello, I have copper pipes and ran a coral reef for 20 years and darts almost six years now.
I have a five stage Rodi unit, make 50 gallons of water per day.
My TDS (total dissolved solvents) are normally less than 3.
I have well water. 
Have you ever thought of getting an RODI unit?


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

I couldn't say, but I am also curious about your question. I have a plastic tube going down into my water drainage layer which a copper tube cap fits perfectly, and I would like to use the cap to keep out debris. I have avoided doing so as to not take any risks.

My tap water is soft and has low TDS (and copper pipes), but even so, I still go buy 5 gallon water cooler jugs of R.O. water. This is not only for the benefit of the frogs and bug cultures, but to keep my Mistking nozzle free from mineral deposits & running smoothly, & also so my glass dries perfectly clear with no water marks. That last reason alone is worth the few pennies a day (not that we have pennies ) it costs for R.O. water, in my opinion.


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## pygmycory (Dec 11, 2016)

I know the water in my local area is fine. It has fairly low dissolved solids and neutral pH, which I know because I've tested it for fishkeeping many times. It also doesn't leave significant deposits on glass in my Crested Geckos tank, which I've been misting twice daily for the past 5 years. Wipe the glass down with a cloth very occasionally, and problem solved there. 

The freshwater shrimp at the petstore where I work are fine, including the more sensitive types like the crystal blacks and crystal reds, and I know they aren't using distilled or RO water since I'm one of the people doing water changes on those tanks. The only things we use RO water for are the saltwater systems. So if there's a copper issue, it is with my house only, not the local water system. But I can't find a copper test kit to buy with which to check.

I didn't realize I might have a copper problem until about two months ago when the two shrimp I brought home died within a couple of weeks in a situation that ought to have been fine for them and I thought to go look at my water pipes. Since then, I've altered the way I'm taking water for the aquarium to reduce the likelihood of copper in the water (by using only cold water and running the water before collecting it). Since then it has been no shrimp, no problem.

Buying a RO unit seems somewhat like overkill given that I'm only running one small freshwater tank with fish that are doing fine, but I am considering buying RO or distilled water for the frogs. 

Does anyone know anything about how sensitive frogs are to copper, as compared to freshwater fish vs. shrimp? I assume they are more sensitive than lizards, given their permeable skin. There must be an article on this somewhere. I'm going to put some energy into hunting for it.


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

pygmycory said:


> Does anyone know anything about how sensitive frogs are to copper, as compared to freshwater fish vs. shrimp? I assume they are more sensitive than lizards, given their permeable skin. There must be an article on this somewhere. I'm going to put some energy into hunting for it.


Right on. I couldn't find anything, so be sure to report back if you do, k?


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## pygmycory (Dec 11, 2016)

I haven't found anything specifically on dart frogs, but I did find some info on the tadpoles of other anurans, plus a little on freshwater prawns and brine shrimp. Most of the info is on acute toxicity, rather than chronic, but I did find one paper on population persistence/extinction in southern toads and leopard frogs that had some relevant things to say.

Southern toad populations: 15ppb (parts/billion) was low risk, while 30ppb led to the extinction of modelled populations. Leopard frogs are much less sensitive, populations were ok at 100ppb. 

From my reading, I've drawn the following conclusions so far:
-there's very little data on adult frogs with regard to copper
-tadpoles are likely the place most problems are
-different species have very different tolerances, and I don't know 

-brine shrimp experience mass mortality at 25 ppt (parts per trillion which is WAY lower), but freshwater prawns are much sturdier than brine shrimp, having a lethal count of 50% of population at 350ppb over 96 hours. As Neocaridina are not either of these, I still don't know.

-There is a copper test kit sold by API which I can probably get the store to order for me. I'll do that so I know what copper levels are in my water, and can make a decent decision on whether I need to buy reverse osmosis/distilled water or not for my frogs. Also, because I want to know! My other critters and I are drinking this water.

-I'm not going include a pond in my viv, just bromeliads and film canisters that can be emptied or overfilled and so won't concentrate copper and other contaminants over time. I will include a method of siphoning out water that accumulates in the false bottom.


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## pygmycory (Dec 11, 2016)

As of right now I'm going on the assumption there's a fairly high likelihood that I will be buying RO water, not least since I haven't found any reliable info specifically on adult dart frogs.

Serialhobbyist, with regard to the copper cap, I'd be a bit leery of that if you are using RO or distilled water because very pure water like that is really good at leaching things from whatever it runs over. Much better at that than water that already has stuff dissolved in it. Perhaps a plastic cap that would fit could be found at your local hardware store? But maybe you've already tried that.


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

pygmycory said:


> As of right now I'm going on the assumption there's a fairly high likelihood that I will be buying RO water, not least since I haven't found any reliable info specifically on adult dart frogs.
> 
> Serialhobbyist, with regard to the copper cap, I'd be a bit leery of that if you are using RO or distilled water because very pure water like that is really good at leaching things from whatever it runs over. Much better at that than water that already has stuff dissolved in it. Perhaps a plastic cap that would fit could be found at your local hardware store? But maybe you've already tried that.


Yeah, if it was PVC pipe, rather than this cheap plastic tubing, then a cap would be no problem. There just doesn't seem to be a cap for this stuff. I only chose it, because my siphon hose fits inside it nicely, and it's thin-walled, so I have room to use a larger diameter siphon hose between my eggcrate false bottom and the front. PVC with a cap on it is big & bulky by comparison- You'll probably see what I mean when you go shopping around for whatever tube you're going to use. I could plug it with a cork, but then it's difficult to cover-up, and becomes an eyesore. The leaf that sits over the hole seems to do the job well enough, though.

I've steered clear of using any rocks (and copper bits) in my viv, with the exception of aquarium safe gravel, to avoid any mineral leaching. It does seem a bit silly using RO water when we're often rated as having the best tap water anywhere on Earth, but better safe than sorry.


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## pygmycory (Dec 11, 2016)

Shame about your pipe and cap. 

My siphon is pretty small, so it fits in the thick-walled PVC pipe I bought. Although actually, I need to buy another siphon. I shouldn't be use it in both the fish tank and the vivarium. I'll stick that on my list of things to buy.


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