# Wanted to know how much money is in the dart frog buisness



## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I have no intention of going into buisness but just out of curosity; How much money do dart frog breeeders make? How much do individuals make selling frogs? What is cost of raising a single frog? Do any of you rely soley on the income from your dart frogs? What kind of money is involved in the buisness as a whole(just in the U.S.)?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Well it is a big investment. There are those that make a living off of darts (I think), but you have to look at their up front investment. A breeder with even 15 species and multiple blood lines could have as many as 100 plus frogs, maybe more. That is a huge up front cost. Tanks, electricity, supplies, it is a big overhead.

Your average frogger may eventually may make some money of their frogs, but usually it goes back in the hobby. Unless you have some expensive frogs being regularly produced you will have a hard time making much at it I would think. I have $600 or $700 in the hobby maybe, so it would require a lot of froglets (that I don't have) to even breakeven, let alone make money.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Depends how good you are. If you breed too many your stuck w/ lower price for them and too few and you make nothing. It`s a constant juggling act and I`m not driving a porsche. 
The people making the most are the people who have no overhead and are selling strictly wholesale I imagine. There`s a lot that goes into it. The more food you breed yourself the more you make. Sometimes the cost of food could eat all your profits.
Some years are better than others depending on what`s being imported. 
What I like is that I can actually get back to basics w/ it. I`m burning wood for heat, planning an additions w/ windows in the roof to get away from my electric bill, clearing trails, farming and it`s because I can take care of frogs and not work a 9-5. I`m sure I could make a lot more if I was into marketing and web design and such. Or if I was into money. I make just enough to get by well w/out lavish vaca`s or a nice car because I don`t drive anywhere.
The problem w/ trying to "make" money is that there`ll always be someone w/ less costs and the bigger you get the easier it is to loose money because you still have to pay the rent, employees, bills and taxes even when the frogs aren`t selling.


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

I agree. Well iám not a breeder myself but can figure some things out.

First of all breeders have live stock, which can be good or bad either way.
Frogs can die and u lose some possible income, but on the other side when you won't sell you're frogs at an expo or something there is no problem. This because a frog is a living thing and u can "store" them a long time. You can still sell a frog no matter if it's 4 or 5 months old.

You can always improve you're income by investing in some more expensive frogs, but you will have to invest again.

So I think they are right when you say breeders make a little money of it. I honestly think most breeders also have an other job somewhere.

correct me if i'am wrong

Regards


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> First of all breeders have live stock, which can be good or bad either way.
> Frogs can die and u lose some possible income, but on the other side when you won't sell you're frogs at an expo or something there is no problem. This because a frog is a living thing and u can "store" them a long time. You can still sell a frog no matter if it's 4 or 5 months old.


Yes, but if you bring them home from 4 shows in a row and have to feed them and house/heat/light them and pay gas, tolls and hotel/tables etc. your profits can dwindle quite quick. Especially if you have a facility,taxes,insurance etc. to pay for. You can repack a book and put it in cold storage, not heat, light,etc. and it won`t die. Unless it becomes unpopular. W/ the increasing # of what`s available, you can`t have everything. The more animals you collect to breed the more you have to worry about introduced pathogens. If you ever decide to quit you have to give about a years notice. Tads, froglets etc. unless you dump them cheap, your stuck. You can`t move w/out a huge hassle, no vacations. 
To sum it up, nowhere near enough money in the hobby. 
You have to want to breed frogs solely to make money off them. If you want to make money there are much easier ways, much , much easier. If you want to make money off breeding frogs your already setting yourself up to fail since you have the wrong motivation and drive behind it. You`ll try to cut corners when you realize the cost and volatility of the market and the actual WORK involved. Breeding frogs is the easy part. If you solely want to breed frogs the money may or may not come afterwards.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Little story. I recently went to a hamburg pa show and had all my frogs, drove 7 hours there and 7 back plus packing and unpcking etc. I made $360 and had to pay expenses for it all. Luckily I split the cost of driving and table w/ a friend. Gas costs were about $130, no tolls and table was $70. I made about $260 for the job of selling my frogs(not the normal hours I put in a week to breed/feed/clean,etc.) after cost for 30 hours of work, strait.
Now think what would happen if you had employees and hotels, etc. and didn`t split costs.
A local hobbyist had 6 imitators or 8 at $50ea and 6-8 intermedius at $75ea.
He sold out and left before I did.
#Not that I haven`t done much better on other weeks but you have to realize you have to take the good w/ the bad and it`s not fun and profits the whole way.#edit


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

Frogfarm: You are right! It will be difficult be if it's ones hobby and passion, they could adjust their lives to frogbreeding for a living.

Bu I think it's the only exception... Except when you have a part-time job next to the breeding it could work, but I think only when you are dedicated to frogs!

Good reply though!

(Y)

Dennis


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I don't breed frogs as a sole means of income, but to echo what Aaron said, here's a story... We have 4 local shows a year and 2 shows ago a friend and I decided to vend. We split the $50 table and took all of our extra stock and said what the hell... let's see what happens. At the end of the day I walked out with about $1300 and I didn't even sell all the frogs I had and he did about the same. We went to the next show with hopes of duplicating or at least coming close to the last one. I had more frogs and a bigger selection and I left with $75 ($30 of whihc had to go to the table fee... damn price increases!). It just goes to show it can be feast or famine and just because you have the frogs doesn't always means someone is going ot buy. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I always love these questions. I agree with many of the things Aaron said. 

There are a few people (companies) in the country who have this as their sole source of income. Many companies have a partner (husband/wife) who works while the other spend all their time with the business. 

People usually don't think that for any business to be self sustaining, you have to pay taxes, employees (if you are big enough - and all the expenses that go with that), rent, utilities, keep a very large inventory of all your supplies, etc... Often, people forgo taking care of themselves (paying for their own health insurance) to help get their business off the ground.

So, while anyone can make large sales at a show or two a year, it takes a lot more to be able to do this day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year... 

We have not gotten rich by any means off of our business, but we have gotten to the point that our business pays for itself. 

If you are looking for a business to make money at, this isn't it. 

One last note. What is the measure of a successful business? Making a lot of money isn't always the measure of success in this business. Most people put a lot of work and don't get a lot of financial reward for their work. Look at all the people on this forum who spend time answering questions. I consider most of the advanced breeders on this forum as successful breeders - I don't look at their financial success at this hobby as a measure of success.

Of course, people like Aaron break all the rules 

:lol: :lol:


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ah, Thanks Melissa.  
Shows are like that. Back in the day when I was making a lot of money(well for me a lot) it was because I did 3 shows a month. Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio, Md, and Chicago. You could count on a decent show 1-2 times a month and 1 you should have done a shift at burger king instead. All those shows aren`t great for dart frogs. Back then I was breeding rare monitors, geckos and chameleons too. Oh and food, mice and ff`s, springs and crickets. People may not buy a pet at every show but animals always have to eat. 
Even Patrick breeds monitors and geckos and non dart frogs too. As far as I know there isn`t 1 person in the country who makes their income solely on breeding and selling darts.
I probably worked 75% of my waking hours back then. I just never thought of it as work.


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

so you guys ship frogs too, or just sell at shows? And where does dumping wholesale extras onto petshops come into play?

I'm very enterested in this conversation. As ashamed as I am, I'm pretty much unemployed with no plans to spend my life doing a 9-5 unless its something I love. The part I'm ashamed of is being 26, and still not having things figured out. I love animals, and have been seriously concidering something like breeding/selling animals.

I figure if I breed flies, crickets, worms(silk mostly), and make my own fish food, I can cut costs down, and raise a variety of animals. Pretty much any frog/lizard/fish will cost little more than alot of work,electricity, time, and space. My uncle is a snake breeder, so I can even stock those without having to deal with mice/rats.

I know a fair amount about reptiles & fish. and over the last year of reading like a crazy person, I'm starting to get some knowhow about frogs. I have no intention of getting rich, but would simply like to survive and be happy without having to get a normal job. I have a gf in college and a son. I daydream about one day having our own place where me and my boy tend to the animals and the future wife does the crappy 9-5 work :lol: 

Not being extremely social, I plan on doing the local monthly show, then eventually having my brother help me make a website, and doing alot of shipping animal/supplies. And dealing with the local pet shops when I get overloaded on any species.

I'm sure there was a question in the rant somewhere. Oh yea, do you guys ship, and deal with pet shops ever? And are you working with other animals besides frogs?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

When you breed animals for a living you sell wherever you can. You keep your best stock for sale at shows and sell your smaller/younger mass bred stuff to shops or wholesalers. They have the least chance of survival going thru there, kinda like running the gauntlet so why sell your larger animals there when you can get them strait to a customer at shows or thru shipping, w/ no break in the quality line. Unless of course you just produce way too many. Then your looking at selling them for close to cost and wasting most of your time. You basically mimic the wild. Phyllos and epis strategy is to produce as many offspring as possible in the season they breed and hope some survive. so do dendros other than thumbs and egg feeders. Those are your wholesale frogs or you tank breed them and pull froglets for survival of the fittest where they evolve toward the ecology of the tanks each generation more suited to a "viv" lifestyle. This keep production lo and space for one breeding pairs offspring lo. 
Animals such as Rhac geckos you don`t generally wholesale as they produce 2 a month. Pumilio the same, few offspring higher price more info w/ each purchase.
Snakes are already overdone and ball pythons are on every other table at every show. The sheer # of co dom/ recessive mutations that are being produced every year is going exponential and dropping ALL the morphs prices at astounding rates. Morphs selling for $3k ea last year are now selling for $300ea. The whole reptile industry is going thru a big change w/ darts leading the way. It`s a VERY volatile time and I often wonder what`s going to come of it. 
Your mainstays are get the food going first and a few little projects. If you get past that build sparingly and don`t squelch on the vet bills. Be observant above all. Don`t spend too much time reading as this hobby is still in it`s infancy, there is MUCH still to be learned and many barriers yet to be broken. Every environment is different, what works for one may not work for anyone else.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Don't forget that the economy has a direct impact on the value and ability to sell animals. With the downturn in the economy and the fall of the subprime mortgage rates, you can expect to see the prices in the hobby drop.... 
I suspect that one of the things that was driving the ball python prices was that people were taking out loans in an attempt to get rich quick.. (kind of like the old tulip craze...) 

In addition, I think the increase in shipping costs is going to have a big impact on the sales.. 

Ed


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed brings up a good point. We have noticed a decline in sales over the last few years as the economy continues to bomb.

Whatever you choose, choose it because you enjoy it not because you want to make a business of it. Eventually you will find your nitch ...and go for it.

My advice, is find a full time job, with benefits and build your collection like the rest of it. Get a barebones one & then let the collection pay for itself (maintenance and expansion). Add your own money as needed but don't put ANY thing on credit!!!!

Create a savings account and save as much as you can.

Eventually, if you are doing things right you can cut down hours on your regular job. There is no quick, get rich scheme here, just a lot of hard work.


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## Mikee (Oct 23, 2007)

Or hope to win the lottery one day


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

Well, I have been around for many years and back in the day the ONLY way to get a decent frog was to order from a wholesaler and sometimes right from the source (exporters) and a few reptile dealers who knew what to do with them as soon as they arrived.. On a good day (shipment) you were lucky if more than half survived and those that did arrived dehydrated and hungry. Then we discovered Holland and Germany.. That was where I found people actually making a living on this specialized hobby, along with a huge inventory of supplies, varied food items, home made vivariums specially made for darts, etc. as well as a large variety of frogs. That was then and this is now.. I have seen a huge influx of dart froggers in the past 2 decades here in the US with various bloodlines of frog species, so the hobby has come a long way.. the difference though is the prices on these frogs.. with the increased number of breeders in the hobby, those who once had the market corndered and would charge for a newly morphed frog the same amount one paid for an adult frog.. that's an easy way to get ones money back in an investment.. Also the ones who are the most successful are the "one-stop" shopping such as plants suitable for the vivarium, frogs, food, supplements, lighting, heating and any newer technology in the dart frog/vivarium world.. and another way is to also breed boas, pythons or things like mass producing rats, crickets (if you have the room).. these can net one into the hundreds of thousands of dollars once it is established and have a few zoos as a contracted customer.. SO basically if you are selling some high end darts for bigger $$, sell some lower end darts also as only a few dedicated dart froggers can and only willing to spend $200-300 and up on a single frog this can be offset by selling an auratus, tinc, imitator as those just looking to get into the hobby can afford.. So basically what I am trying to say is it can be done as with any business you have to be dedicated, able to deal with the risks, take a few calculated chances and offer variety at a fair price.. I think this hobby is more geared towards one breeding a specie of frog or frogs and make enough to turnaround and purchase a different frog to make his/her hobby self-sustainable. All the breeders listed here on Dendroboard work very hard at what they do.. and have experienced some firsts in the dart frog world.. so support them as they will not only sell you a dart frog, they become a dart frog friend.. and that's free.. Peter Keane, JungleWorld


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> Or hope to win the lottery one day


That`s plan B, haven`t had to resort to that one yet.



> Don't forget that the economy has a direct impact on the value and ability to sell animals. With the downturn in the economy and the fall of the subprime mortgage rates, you can expect to see the prices in the hobby drop....
> I suspect that one of the things that was driving the ball python prices was that people were taking out loans in an attempt to get rich quick.. (kind of like the old tulip craze...)


Ya, Imagine if you paid 3k a piece for snakes and they hadn`t even begun to breed and they dropped to $350ea. youch. That`s why I never got into them. Most of my projects till now have been $20 - 60ea. projects where they produce a # of offspring. Much more stable investments. Even if they don`t breed your not out much but I have to sell a lot of $20 frogs to equal one ball python sale. It`s much easier for me to have more work to make money then sit and watch prices fall when my animals aren`t old enough to breed yet.



> In addition, I think the increase in shipping costs is going to have a big impact on the sales..


Which is why I`ve stopped breeding auratus and may start again. I have not shipped but a dozen auratus last year because of shipping prices. I sold nearly all of my auratus wholesale or at shows all last year. Since my show totals have been coming down I`ve realized that my biggest chore is the only reason I can keep doing shows. As price goes up the # of people looking for said animal decreases exponentially. Most of my pumilio sell thru shipping as the shipping cost/animal cost is much less drastic.
I`ve also redoubled my efforts on breeding food items(crix,ff`s,springs,isos). The # of vendors w/ darts at the white plains show has gone from 2 when I started out to over 8-10 (depending if you count wholesalers who don`t plan on bringing any frogs back w/ them).
Things are constantly changing and you have to be innovative and perceptive and change w/ or perish.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I have used geckos and frogs production to pay for book through college and buy my engagement ring. The feeding seems to be a big issue of cost. I had a 163 leopard geckos babies hatch summer 06 on top of my other creatures and there offspring. I did not plan on producing that many geckos and crickets were going to start eating my profit. That is when I busted open the door to local pet shops $10 each just for quick cash as son as they were feeding and two weeks old. I had poor planning, but the food gets expensive. I was working two jobs that summer to save up so I did not have to work as much during student teaching. 55 hours a week plus all those bins to clean. 

This is why I like the career I choose in teaching. I have three months of paid to work shows and and work on production.


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