# Tank raising your frogs



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

With the talk of overproduction, farm raised imports, etc. I figured I`d start a thread on tank raising. One of the reasons that some darts produce so many eggs is that some are hard wired to be in groups in visual distance(some aren`t). Probably family groups and not truely social but I`ve observed a lot of differences in adults and juvis that are raised in the tanks w/ their parents. I first noticed that pumilio seemed to do better in w/ their parents rather than being pulled and raised in their own tub. They did fine for a while but some would dwindle as they reached maturity. After leaving them in w/ the parents and taking a few out to test, the tank raised outgrew the individually raised frogs. Maybe they were less stressed as I see the parents cover them when I walk up to the tank or jump up the sides as the juvis scatter. Maybe they are more apt to start on ff`s if they see mom and dad eating them? 
The azureus grew just as well in or out but seem to be out more often when in w/ the adults w/ similar watching behavior and signalling flight when I walk up. 
Not only may it ragain the popularity of some morphs by not making them seem so abundant but if you collect out a clutch here and there you`ll get the best of both worlds and it may be better in the long run for your frogs. It may also keep some people in the hobby longer as some people collect out all the eggs and are overrun very quickly making the hobby a chore early on.
I have had tads raised in dog water dishes, plastic cups, soufflet? cups, pvc pushed into the gravel of spigot drained tanks, etc. They seem to be able to live on the muck the parents drag in, other tads and algea and bacteria that grows in the bottom of the container.
It is a bit more tricky or a challange to tank raise them but it`s also a lot less work.
When I , yet again, figure out how to post pics I`ll get a couple up of parents and juvis and tads etc. to show.
I tried these types of setups years ago but I tried to have too many containers in there for tads when I think they naturally are limited by water holding vessels in the wild and tads normally get fed to other tads. Not too far of a stretch considering egg feeders. It may actually be a way of supplying more protein and nutrition for a shorter breeding season or to get stronger bigger froglets or to be a breeding meter in groups like castaneoticus(since they use nut shells to breed in, less nuts = less food for insects = less breeding vessels to control the pop, bigger and less froglets(because they are fed more tads) for a lesser food production year, I know a stretch! But these are the things you wonder about taking care of frogs all this time and seeing these suttle differences w/out ever seeing their habitat in person).


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i have foudn the same to be true for pumilios, if left in with teh parents they do better in the long run and those that are pulled soon after morphing out dont' fair too well.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Aaron, another thing have you foudn that the frogs that are tank raised aside from pumilios, grow bigger in the long run?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Great post, Aaron.

I'm currently experimenting with mantella laevigata tads - I have a few tads from a clutch being raised artificially and some that are being raised in the tank by their parents. Right now, the artificial ones are larger and more robust (despite being younger by a few weeks) but I suppose the true test will be over the next week or so when they morph out (hopefully without front arm SLS).


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

> if you collect out a clutch here and there you`ll get the best of both worlds and it may be better in the long run for your frogs.


 
i have been doing it like this for the past 3.5yrs and Ive noticed a difference in the health of my frogs, tads and juvis. i tend to pull a clutch out of every 3 laid. even the ones i choose to raise are morphing larger and growing faster the before.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

sounddrive said:


> i have been doing it like this for the past 3.5yrs and Ive noticed a difference in the health of my frogs, tads and juvis. i tend to pull a clutch out of every 3 laid. even the ones i choose to raise are morphing larger and growing faster the before.



are you saying that the tads you raise are doing better or the ones the parents raise better?


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

no im saying since i started only pulling a few clutches insted of all of them and allowing the parents to raise some, the clutches that are pulled while the parents have tads to take care of, seem to grow faster and morph larger.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

love this thread


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Another plus I've found is that I've yet to have a tad morph in the tank with the parents that had SLS. They must just feed them right


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I have started to leave my Campana auratus eggs in teh tank for a week or 2 and have foudn teh eggs to be rather large and %100 fertility in all, i think the parents might relese some sort of chemical that woudl keep them from going bad, before i woudl have some tads die in teh egg just before hatching.


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## asilsdorf (Sep 7, 2005)

Aaron,
Good topic. You mention tads being reared in "dog water dishes, plastic cups, soufflet? cups, pvc pushed into the gravel of spigot drained tanks, etc." and I think we are all familiar with Pumilio using brom axials. Can you offer any guidance on what has worked for you in regard to container size for a specific frog size. i.e your azureus example What size container did you use? 3.25 oz soufflet cup, 10 oz dog dish, etc?


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

Those of you with more experience, does tank raising frogs have a benefit for the parents as well? 
If you pull every clutch to maximize offspring production, do the adults produce more fertile eggs than they would if they were busy caring for tads and transporting eggs etc... If so, tank raising would be a natural way to prevent burning out an adult pair. 

I like this idea for many reasons. It seems more "natural" to allow for parental care (at least transport with species that are not so concerned with egg feeding) and allows for us keepers to observe more behaviors.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Lg 10" across to 5-10 oz dog bowls to 2 - 5 oz. soufflet dishes or old jelly glasses, anything really. The first tank raised I had was a dwarf tinc raised in an ashtray I used for a soak dish(never used). The lg dog dish`s I used for terribilis, I suggest taking their tads out. They`re the only species I suggest not tank raising passed carrying tads. Combinations of any of the above. See what happens.


asilsdorf said:


> Aaron,
> Good topic. You mention tads being reared in "dog water dishes, plastic cups, soufflet? cups, pvc pushed into the gravel of spigot drained tanks, etc." and I think we are all familiar with Pumilio using brom axials. Can you offer any guidance on what has worked for you in regard to container size for a specific frog size. i.e your azureus example What size container did you use? 3.25 oz soufflet cup, 10 oz dog dish, etc?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Haven`t had them long enough to really compare.


Julio said:


> Aaron, another thing have you foudn that the frogs that are tank raised aside from pumilios, grow bigger in the long run?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ll get better pics of the raising cups. Just want to make sure this works.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

It's pretty cool seeing those little guys next to the parents


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i agree thats really cool!!


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Here`s some pics. the pvc is 1 3/4 inch I think.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I think it would be great to leave the tads in with the adults, but not if the parents dont care for them. I guess this only aplys to some species, because my vents will not care for the tads, from my experience.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

None of those tanks are egg feeders. All they do is carry the tads to the dish. They may bring in future tads that get eaten but all they do parentally is carry. The tads eat the algae, bacteria and ff`s that fall in.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Julio said:


> I have started to leave my Campana auratus eggs in teh tank for a week or 2 and have foudn teh eggs to be rather large and %100 fertility in all, i think the parents might relese some sort of chemical that woudl keep them from going bad, before i woudl have some tads die in teh egg just before hatching.


I seem to recall reading that the parents' urine has anti-fungal properties, which helps prevent molding over of the eggs.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

my personal experience is that pumilio froglets pulled from the tank soon after morphing get bigger then the ones left in the tank with the parents.
I now systematically pull the froglets as soon as they morph but sometimes I miss some that are hiding really well or hanging around broms in the back of the tanks, and when I finally find them and put them with their siblings from the same clutch they are noticably smaller and skinnier.
I have had maybe a 1-5% max. mortality rate of pumilio froglets in grow-out tanks in the 2 years I've been breeding them, so I cannot agree that they don't do well in separate tanks. I don't know what the mortality rate is of froglets left in the tank as it is much harder to keep track of them. 

about eggs in the tanks all being good: don't the males of many species eat the bad eggs?


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

frogfarm said:


> None of those tanks are egg feeders. All they do is carry the tads to the dish. They may bring in future tads that get eaten but all they do parentally is carry. The tads eat the algae, bacteria and ff`s that fall in.


Really? How do they get enough protein in their diets? I would expect the tads to grow smaller than usual? What about the morph time, longer?... 

Also what species does this "work" with?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Mac said:


> Really? How do they get enough protein in their diets? I would expect the tads to grow smaller than usual? What about the morph time, longer?...
> 
> Also what species does this "work" with?


No, they take about the same time and morph out pretty big. It "works" for all of them:tincs,leucs,auratus, bicolor vittatus, aurotaenia, etc.etc.. They don`t get tad bites or fish flake in the wild , they are bottom feeders scavenging nutrients from whatever muck they can gobble down, plant material, dead and live bugs and larvae, algae and bacteria. They graze any surface in the water w/ them.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

NathalieB said:


> my personal experience is that pumilio froglets pulled from the tank soon after morphing get bigger then the ones left in the tank with the parents.
> I now systematically pull the froglets as soon as they morph but sometimes I miss some that are hiding really well or hanging around broms in the back of the tanks, and when I finally find them and put them with their siblings from the same clutch they are noticably smaller and skinnier.
> I have had maybe a 1-5% max. mortality rate of pumilio froglets in grow-out tanks in the 2 years I've been breeding them, so I cannot agree that they don't do well in separate tanks. I don't know what the mortality rate is of froglets left in the tank as it is much harder to keep track of them.
> 
> about eggs in the tanks all being good: don't the males of many species eat the bad eggs?


If I said they don`t do well outside the viv I miswrote. I just meant to give my experience having some skinny up after being raised alone and I had less, if any problems when they were in a family group. I think they are social, as are we. That doesn`t mean we can`t spend time outside of social siuations for extended periods just that some may not fare as well.
There are lots of ways to raise them and under different circumstances different techniques fare better.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

So the key is to make sure the water has plenty of muck in it? Should you put in something to get it going ( in terms of bacteria and algae or food in general ) or what? 

Also how is their color compared to fish flake fed tads, outside of the tank?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Mac said:


> So the key is to make sure the water has plenty of muck in it? Should you put in something to get it going ( in terms of bacteria and algae or food in general ) or what?
> 
> Also how is their color compared to fish flake fed tads, outside of the tank?


The parents usually drag a bunch of junk in w/ them. You can crush up leaves to drop in. Good light helps. They don`t need much as flies drop in too. I`ve seen them take springtails off the top of the water.
Fish flake is quite an unnatural diet for dendro tads. They are fish meal, wheat flour, cod liver oil, rice flour, beet root powder, dried kelp, egg products, torula dried yeast, guar gum, etc. crushed leaves and muck is much more natural for them. I think they`ll overeat in captivity because they are used to constantly grazing lo nutrient foods and bacteria that colonize surfaces, I could be wrong. Maybe this is why they foul the water so easily in cups from overfeeding.
Their color seems fine. I`ve raised red galacts that way.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Have you seen any of the froglets that are in with the adults get trampled by the parents or retreat from them because of their size?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Quaz said:


> Have you seen any of the froglets that are in with the adults get trampled by the parents or retreat from them because of their size?


I`ve seen pumilio jump on top of their froglets to hide them when I walk up. I`ve seen general retreat by the group when I walk up with other frogs but no bullying at the dinner table.


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