# D. tinctorius Bakhuis or D. auratus Mebalo



## radthereptile (Feb 6, 2013)

After talking with my local breeder I have found that they have these two species of frogs for a price I'm willing to pay. I have some concerns about the species though and would like to ask some questions. I heard tincs can be very aggressive, specially female to female, to the point of even killing each other. I'm planning on getting about 4 frogs and keeping them in a 30 Gallon (30 X 12 X 19) tank that I have set up. The tank will be kept in my classroom for my students to study and learn about animal behavior. Would the tincs be too big of a risk to keep together in that size of a tank? I think they look much nicer than the Mebalo and cost less. Plus they're supposed to be bolder which would be a plus since I want my students to be able to observe them. I just fear getting them, having an aggression issue, and having to make a whole new tank because of it. So what do you guys think? Should I go with the tincs or will it be too big of a problem for the frogs?


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Tincs can be tricky when housed in small groups. Sometimes they will be fine as they grow up and sometimes one or two of them will suffer and need to be separated. I've found that aggression/intimidation is not always just the females... it can also occur with males. You would need to be prepared to watch for outright physical aggression as well as the not-so-obvious intimidation. If one is not eating as readily and/or not growing as fast, it may need to be separated from the group. 

I've not had any experience with auratus, but have heard that many of them are on the shyer side. Hopefully someone else will chime in on Mebalo specifically.

Have you thought of leucs? They should be fine in a small group and you should have at least a few visible the majority of the time. It also would be nice for your students to be able to hear them calling.


----------



## radthereptile (Feb 6, 2013)

WendySHall said:


> Tincs can be tricky when housed in small groups. Sometimes they will be fine as they grow up and sometimes one or two of them will suffer and need to be separated. I've found that aggression/intimidation is not always just the females... it can also occur with males. You would need to be prepared to watch for outright physical aggression as well as the not-so-obvious intimidation. If one is not eating as readily and/or not growing as fast, it may need to be separated from the group.
> 
> I've not had any experience with auratus, but have heard that many of them are on the shyer side. Hopefully someone else will chime in on Mebalo specifically.
> 
> Have you thought of leucs? They should be fine in a small group and you should have at least a few visible the majority of the time. It also would be nice for your students to be able to hear them calling.


Thank you for the information. I should clarify some things. The tincs I would be getting would all be 3-4 months old. I've heard if they're raised together they tend not to be aggressive. I would really prefer the tincs since they're cheaper, bolder and I personally prefer their look. I would get leucs but the only dealer I can find in my state (Maryland) doesn't have any. Really my biggest question is if I get the 4 tincs at 3-4 months old and raise them together will they be able to share a 30 gallon (30 X 12 X 19) without any problem? I know they're will be a risk of aggression. I'm trying to figure out if the aggression is a can be avoided by raising them together and giving them a 30 gallon to spread out in. If its just a guarantee they'll be aggressive I won't get them.


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

A 30 gallon is not a huge tank when it comes to tincs...at least not large enough to guarantee that there won't be aggression or intimidation. Being raised together is also not a guarantee. If your heart is really set on them...make sure that your tank is well-planted with lots of different hiding spots...and then keep an eye on them as I said before. If you happen to notice outright aggression or that one is doing poorly, you would have to be prepared for separation. If you can't/don't want to keep him/her, you could always offer the frog here.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Maryland (and surrounding areas) should have lots of people with frogs. If none of them chime in by the time I get home from work, I'll see if I can find a local list for you. 

I think Leucs would be the most fun for a classroom. You can put more of them into the 30g tank than you can tincs. Plus, they climb and are hysterical little frogs.


----------



## kthehun89 (Jul 23, 2009)

hysterical is a fine description of leucs, but yeah 30g is a good size for a pair, not 4...


----------



## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

frogface said:


> Maryland (and surrounding areas) should have lots of people with frogs. If none of them chime in by the time I get home from work, I'll see if I can find a local list for you.


Feel free to PM me as I am also located in Maryland. 
Wendy's suggestions are spot on--a classroom setting would benefit best from frogs which aren't too secretive; the students really need to see the frogs. Auratus, while affordable, might not be the best display animals in this situation. 
Scott


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Costa rican auratus are really bold and the green on them is nice and bright. Most people who don't keep dart frogs either choose them or azureus as the favorite out of the frogs I have. They do fine in groups too. Very affordable as well.


----------



## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I agree 100% with wendy...

A thought...If you break for summer... 

The tincs may work out because they _usually_ (imo) become more aggressive in their own groups after a year old. By summer they should be about that age, plus, you could then sex out a pair, sell off/trade the other(s) and when class resumes you (hopefully) wont have any aggression potential. 

EDIT: Provided you have a pair among your group


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

frogface said:


> Maryland (and surrounding areas) should have lots of people with frogs. If none of them chime in by the time I get home from work, I'll see if I can find a local list for you.


This is a great idea, Kris! Or...if Rad gets his/her post count up another idea would be to place a "wanted" post in the classifieds listing the area.



kthehun89 said:


> hysterical is a fine description of leucs, but yeah 30g is a good size for a pair, not 4...


I think four would be just fine in a 30. They are communal, active, would utilize the background and should be fine with the amount of space available. Not long ago, you stated that a 10 gallon was fine for a pair of leucs. 



SMenigoz said:


> Feel free to PM me as I am also located in Maryland.


Here is a guy with a good reputation should you decide to look elsewhere.



mydumname said:


> Costa rican auratus are really bold and the green on them is nice and bright. Most people who don't keep dart frogs either choose them or azureus as the favorite out of the frogs I have. They do fine in groups too. Very affordable as well.


I've heard the same about Costa Ricans. They may be a good option as well.



jdooley195 said:


> A thought...If you break for summer...
> The tincs may work out because they _usually_ (imo) become more aggressive in their own groups after a year old. By summer they should be about that age, plus, you could then sex out a pair, sell off/trade the other(s) and when class resumes you (hopefully) wont have any aggression potential.
> EDIT: Provided you have a pair among your group


Most schools go on break in about 3 1/2 months. That would only make them about 6-7 months old. Still kinda early for sexing unless your really good.


----------



## radthereptile (Feb 6, 2013)

Thank you all for all the help. I agree that Leucs would be my preferred choice. Sadly, I can't find any breeders after searching in Maryland except for the one. He only has tincs and Autaitas which is why I'm choosing between them. I don't wanna get frogs shipped of I can avoid for several reasons. I want the Timcs mostly for cost and looks. However, it sounds like it's too big of a risk. I don't want the frogs to fight which it sounds like Tincs will. Also, is a 30 gallon really only big enough for 2 frogs? I was told the rule was 2 for 10 gallon, 3 for 20 and so on. Perhaps I was misinformed. Again thank you all for the help.


----------



## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

WendySHall said:


> Most schools go on break in about 3 1/2 months. That would only make them about 6-7 months old. Still kinda early for sexing unless your really good.


 I mean if a 3-4 month old froglet is bought now, then by August/September when school resumes (end of summer session), they would be over 10 months...and should be sexable.


----------



## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

A ten gallon tank is fine for two tincs, the main reason a 30 gal wouldn't be big enough for three would be because of aggression, not space limitations. A handful of leucs (or any other good group frog) in a 30 gal shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

jdooley195 said:


> I mean if a 3-4 month old froglet is bought now, then by August/September when school resumes (end of summer session), they would be over 10 months...and should be sexable.


Ahhh...I see what you were thinking now. But still, being new to darts he/she may still need help figuring it out. I still occasionally need to put a "possible" with a "known" pair to be sure.

And it doesn't sound like he/she wants to divide the group. Maybe I'm wrong...


----------



## radthereptile (Feb 6, 2013)

Thanks for all the info on the tincs. If I do get them ll be sure to only get 2. What about the Auratus? Are they alright to keep in groups? Would the 30 gallon work for 4?


----------



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Classroom setting ... go with Tincs. 

I have Mebalo & I never see them. They hide 90% of the time. 
I know a couple other people & they report the same thing.

Can't go wrong with Tincs when looking for boldness.


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Auratus do well in groups. Costa ricans are bold...but like nick experienced with mebalo....same is true for a lot of auratus morphs.

Have you considered looking for tincs that are sexable and just getting a pair from the start?


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

radthereptile said:


> Thank you all for all the help. I agree that Leucs would be my preferred choice. Sadly, I can't find any breeders after searching in Maryland except for the one.


I find this incredibly hard to believe... Sean Stewart at Herpetologic.net has them listed as available on his website at the moment.

Plus, Scott already offered his help too:


SMenigoz said:


> Feel free to PM me as I am also located in Maryland.
> Wendy's suggestions are spot on--a classroom setting would benefit best from frogs which aren't too secretive; the students really need to see the frogs. Auratus, while affordable, might not be the best display animals in this situation.
> Scott


There are several other people breeding them in Maryland... checking out the regional area might give you a few leads.


Just out of curiosity... why you are so set on the number 4? Is it so you can constantly see frogs? If you had a pair of tincs in there you would see the frogs plenty. Visibility would not be a problem.


----------



## radthereptile (Feb 6, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> I find this incredibly hard to believe... Sean Stewart at Herpetologic.net has them listed as available on his website at the moment.
> 
> Plus, Scott already offered his help too:
> 
> ...


I've actually already been in contact with Herpetologic. They currently only have tincs and auras according to the E-mail they sent me. That's how I got the two species to ask about, from the list they sent me. 

As for Scott, I did PM him. We've been talking and he's very helpful. 

I understand to many of you finding dealers is easy because you've been at it for years. For me it hasn't been. I searched all over the Internet for exotic pet stores in my area, reptile stores and others. I went through Yellow pages. All I could find is Herpetologic (who I was intending to use as they seem very knowledgable). I'm not saying others don't exist. I'm somply saying for a new person, finding a seller isn't that easy.

As for why 4 it's mostly because I've been told a 30 gallon would work for about 4 frogs. I would like my students to have the chance to observe as many as I can fit/afford. Interactions between a group is important to understand when looking at animal behavior. I'm fine with just getting 2 tincs or whatever. I'd just like to give the students the opportunity to view as many as would be practicable.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

radthereptile said:


> I understand to many of you finding dealers is easy because you've been at it for years. For me it hasn't been. I searched all over the Internet for exotic pet stores in my area, reptile stores and others. I went through Yellow pages. All I could find is Herpetologic (who I was intending to use as they seem very knowledgable). I'm not saying others don't exist. I'm somply saying for a new person, finding a seller isn't that easy.


That's why you have Dendroboard  Post something in the regional section and see if you get any responses. Also, if you look into some of the Reptile shows in the area, many list their vendors and you can check ahead of time to see who will have the frogs you are looking for. The All Maryland show is fairly small but theres usually a frog vendor or two.



radthereptile said:


> As for why 4 it's mostly because I've been told a 30 gallon would work for about 4 frogs. I would like my students to have the chance to observe as many as I can fit/afford. Interactions between a group is important to understand when looking at animal behavior. I'm fine with just getting 2 tincs or whatever. I'd just like to give the students the opportunity to view as many as would be practicable.


Keeping 2 or 3 (2 males, 1 female) tincs would give the students plenty of opportunity to observe interactions between the frogs.... they are incredibly bold. Just stick with the larger morphs as in my experience the smaller ones like Bakhuis tend to be shy compared to something like Azureus.


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Have you thought about keeping E. anthonyi? The SIs are pretty bold and a great group frog. Plus, they're relatively inexpensive. If you added a little pool to your viv design, you could also witness the entire life cycle right inside the tank. If I ever taught a science class, these would be my first choice of species. I know Sean offers them in ads here from time to time, but it shouldn't be much of an issue locating some.


----------



## radthereptile (Feb 6, 2013)

Spaff said:


> Have you thought about keeping E. anthonyi? The SIs are pretty bold and a great group frog. Plus, they're relatively inexpensive. If you added a little pool to your viv design, you could also witness the entire life cycle right inside the tank. If I ever taught a science class, these would be my first choice of species. I know Sean offers them in ads here from time to time, but it shouldn't be much of an issue locating some.


He does have them but to be honest I really don't find them to be a very attractive frog. If I'm going to spend money on them I'd rather pay a bit extra but have a more colorful frog both for me as well as my student's interest.


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Well...it seems you're set on tincs. They truly are a bold and active frog and I'm sure you'll be happy with them, even if it's only two. 

I can honestly say that I've never had any problems with two tincs co-existing as adults of the same sex. It seems to me that if the other sex isn't present, they could really care less about who they share their tank with. (Anyone with a different experience?)

However, as Tom said, the Bakhuis do tend to be on the shy side...at least my few (who are now subadults) have been since I've had them. They are frequently hidden in the leaves of the plants. I imagine Sean would have different Tincs available. Consider asking which ones he has available that would be more bold. There actually aren't many that are shy...so you should be able to find something that you find aesthetically pleaseing.


----------

