# Hitting a wall with tads



## snared99 (Feb 28, 2008)

Hi guys,
It is never easy to admit something isnt working right, but i need alittle help. My tads seem to do well up until the point where they front legs are ready to pop and then the next day deceased. 

The adults get dusted flies every other day or 3:1 calcium plus to vitamin A(both repashy)
Tads are kept single in RO water with tetra black water added( 1ml per gallon). The tads are fed a variety of tropical fish food, hbh bits, algae sticks. They are fed every 3 days

I dont do water changes but topped off as need daily. The problem has seemed to be mainly with my cobalts, but seeing this a bit in my auratus now. All the tads are kept at a constant 76-78degrees (ball python incubator).

I think i have covered everything. Any suggestions are appreciated.


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## erik s (Apr 12, 2010)

If it were me...I would start doing partial water changes...you may have a build up of unconsumed food and waste...


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

snared99 said:


> The adults get dusted flies every other day or 3:1 calcium plus to vitamin A(both repashy)
> .


This reads to me they are getting vitamin A at every feeding. I would consider changing that to 1x per month. 

I don't do water changes either but is your water staying clear ..not cloudy? I am not sure if the hbh bits are the same a the tad bits a lot of people use, but I would have to do water changes when I tried those.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Do you remove the tad's waste? I don't do water changes either, but once enough poop accumulates I do aspirate it out. I'd rule this out unless you're seeing a ton of poop and uneaten food, and the water is stinky.

Of worry is that you mentioned that this is an issue that you said was common with one species, and now you're starting to see it in another. Is there something recently that has changed in you care of the auratus?


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## snared99 (Feb 28, 2008)

I did forget to mention that i do use a turkey baster and suck out the tad waste every 3-4 days. Water isnt very dirt looking.smelling at all. The adults care is identical. And yes they do get a bit of vit a with every feeding. From what i understood Vitamen A is essential to laying pairs, is this true?


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

snared99 said:


> The adults get dusted flies every other day or 3:1 calcium plus to vitamin A


This sounds like way too much vitamin A. Are you mixing A and Calcium plus together at a 3:1 ratio and using at every feeding? If so, I would stop that ASAP. I don't think this is the issue with the tads, but it could become toxic to the parents. 

I like to give Vitamin A just once a month as long as there are no issues. If there are issues, I like to give it once every two weeks until there is no longer an issue. 

SuperVit is a great Repashy product too. I would recommend using both Calcium Plus and SuperVit. Don't mix them but alternate between them with every feeding. 




snared99 said:


> I dont do water changes...


I would start there! =) It's a lot of work, but take it from someone who has over 100 tads in the water at all times - water changes *will* make for healthier forglets, greatly reduce losses, produce larger froglets, and over all make you a happier frogger! 

Marta is the Dendrobati tadpole expect carer. She changes the water on all of our tads about ever 3 days. 

A good rule of thumb - if you would not swim in the water you are making the tadpoles live in, than change it!

Keep us posted!

Brad


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

snared99 said:


> I did forget to mention that i do use a turkey baster and suck out the tad waste every 3-4 days. Water isnt very dirt looking.smelling at all. The adults care is identical. And yes they do get a bit of vit a with every feeding. From what i understood Vitamen A is essential to laying pairs, is this true?



Vitamin A is essential to frogs and more so to breeding frogs. A minor vitamin A issue would commonly show as bad eggs clutch after clutch. The solution for this common issue is to supplement vitamin A about once every week or two about 3 or 4 times. After the issues is corrected, you can maintain by supplementing once every month or maybe even every two months. However, there are other ways to supply vitamin A. I'm a fan of SuperVit, it is a very well rounded supplement. I do use it in rotation with Calcium Plus. 


Brad


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

snared99 said:


> I did forget to mention that i do use a turkey baster and suck out the tad waste every 3-4 days. Water isnt very dirt looking.smelling at all. The adults care is identical. And yes they do get a bit of vit a with every feeding. From what i understood Vitamen A is essential to laying pairs, is this true?


Yes, vitamin A is essential, but also toxic in higher levels. Repashy calcium+ already has a small amount of Vitamin A, enough for maintenance of non-breeding frogs. There is still some public debate as to how frequently one should suppliment vitamin A to actively reproducing frogs. I use Repashy Vitamin A+ twice a month, on the 1st and 15th, and only then to my breeding pairs. Some use it once a month (I was one of them but I started getting early onset mold in some of my eggs. Since switching to 2x a month, this has all but disappeared). Still, others report using it once a week. I like to err on the side of caution, and gradually go up, if needed.

That being said, I am somewhat baffled as to why you're having a problem with one, now 2, species. Maybe Ed will chime in, as he is much more knowledgeable in this area. I would think, at the stage of development you're describing, that the internal organs have completely developed. Possibly lung development is still occuring? CO2 poisoning seems a viable explanation to me. I had a similar problem and found once I removed the moss from tad containers, and replaced it with Salvinia natans (a floating plant) my problem disappeared. Seeing that my moss was also dead in the containers I had dead tads in, I believed they were getting CO2 poisoning via organic decay. I seemed to have been correct, in that I haven't lost another tad since. I hope this gives more answers than questions!


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Dendrobati said:


> Vitamin A is essential to frogs and more so to breeding frogs. A minor vitamin A issue would commonly show as bad eggs clutch after clutch. The solution for this common issue is to supplement vitamin A about once every week or two about 3 or 4 times. After the issues is corrected, you can maintain by supplementing once every month or maybe even every two months. However, there are other ways to supply vitamin A. I'm a fan of SuperVit, it is a very well rounded supplement. I do use it in rotation with Calcium Plus.
> 
> 
> Brad


I was under the impression that supervit did not have a usable form of vitamin A, at least in frogs. From what I've read, retinol (the vitamin A source in Repashy) is usable. Search some of Ed's posts on vitamins. He usually cites peer reviewed articles on the topics he comments on.

Edit: please disregard this info as I was confusing supervit with herptivite. Supervit IS a usable form of vitamin A


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

I don't like to use just plain ro water.Addition of RO Right (by Kent Marine) helps add vital minerals back to the ultra pure ro water.I also do not like to use anything but a piece of almond leaf in ea cup of tad water to add tannins and soften the water.I also agree with doing a water change of of about half or so once a week.The water should have a clear tea like appearance to it.I like to use a bit of tadpole moss or java moss in each tad cup .Feed every 2 or 3 days,but be careful of uneaten food buildup.Good luck. Ron


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

snared99 said:


> I did forget to mention that i do use a turkey baster and suck out the tad waste every 3-4 days. Water isnt very dirt looking.smelling at all.


You are probably transfering a bacterial or fungal disease between tads, unless you are sterilizing the baster between cups. I would expect the same to occur if you were to use a strainer between cups while doing water changes.
I would not use any utensil between cups, until this problem is eliminated.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

How old are your supplements? (Age since opening) How are you storing them? As Brad pointed out, it doesn't sound like your problem is vitamin related (I am not a veterinarian nor am I an expert in supplementation), but you didn't indicate an answer to either question, in your posts.


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## snared99 (Feb 28, 2008)

My suppliments are about 4 months old now. I do place a small peice of indian almond in the cups and use the tetra blackwater in the RO water. I will decrease the vit a immediately.

Should i place java in the cups as well?? If so i need to find a source quick...lol


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

snared99 said:


> My suppliments are about 4 months old now. I do place a small peice of indian almond in the cups and use the tetra blackwater in the RO water. I will decrease the vit a immediately.
> 
> Should i place java in the cups as well?? If so i need to find a source quick...lol


Over supplementation of Vit A can be bad for your frogs, but I doubt that is the issue with your tads. Sounds like your tads develop fine, but something in your water is becoming toxic before they have a chance to morph.

Live plants will not remove toxins faster than water changes, and they won't remove fungal or bacterial disease.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Dendrobati said:


> Vitamin A is essential to frogs and more so to breeding frogs.


I agree with the above statements ... try doing water changes & see if it helps.

In regards to Vitamin A, 
It is equally important/essential to young frogs & breeding frogs alike.
They both need it but for different reasons. 
It is proven that Vitamin A is just as important for froglet development as they use it for proper growth. 
Breeders utilize it towards reproduction. 

(As you may/may not know, frogs generally stop using their resources to growth once they start breeding ... which is why breeders may be undersized if they are bred too early in development)


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

snared99 said:


> Hi guys,
> It is never easy to admit something isnt working right, but i need alittle help. My tads seem to do well up until the point where they front legs are ready to pop and then the next day deceased.
> 
> The adults get dusted flies every other day or 3:1 calcium plus to vitamin A(both repashy)
> ...


For your type of tads and for no water changes, this is what I would do:

1 - You are doing too much vitamin A, first of all

2 - No tetra black for the tadpoles (tetra black for the eggs), just RO water

3 - HBH only and, if you really want to, tropical fish food, I don't think it is needed. No algae.

4 - Feed them once a week, 3 or 4 HBH pieces. When they get bigger, feed a bit more if they are eating well.

5 - Scoop the poop/waste every week and a half for the auratus and every week for the cobalts, just before feeding and add some water to replace whatever you take out.

I am sure someone will show up to say algae is necessary, the fish food too and the tetra black and what not. I am sure their method works for them, that's fine. This is my opinion, and I am very close to 100% sure it will fix it for you, for your specific type of problem.

Try it out 
Good luck!

Marta

PS.
About the ball python incubator, I never had one so i don't know how much of a ventilation is there, but I do holes on the tad containers so that there is more airflow. I do believe it helps. So maybe getting them out of there could help too!


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## Lifeguard (Jun 30, 2011)

water change worked for me


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## snared99 (Feb 28, 2008)

Thanks for all the input guys, it is very much appreciated. I will start doing water changes and decrease the vit A immediately and hopefully will see a change.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Pat, I'd try it without the added heat. 72-75 is fine. It could be off a wee bit too and sending the temps into the 80's. They make take a bit longer but morph out bigger, from my experience.


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