# Larger & Smaller Frogs - Diversifying Diet



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Hi everyone - I've been experimenting a bit with different kinds of "supplemental" foods in addition to the usual FF staple. 

Wanted to share a few observations and see if anyone else had something similar or any suggestions for other foods to try. They objective is to diversify their diet, not to replace FFs as a staple. Let me know if you have any suggestions / additions; below are my observations:

Terribilis

Staple: Dusted Hydei FF
Crickets - _"work_"
Pros: larger bites with tons of protein
Cons: the darts tend to miss a few which will end up wreaking havock on plants, are smelly and noisy (not great for my purposes)

Black soldier fly larvae (XS or S under 1/2 inch) - had good success with these
Pros: extra calcium, lots of protein, very "meaty"
Downside here is that if they miss one it may eventually morph out into a large fly (not the end of the world since they have no mouths and don't eat anything - only an "issue" if a bunch of them morph at the same time and breed, which has never happened to me)
I also hand-feed them individually
I have seen them chase after a morphed fly as well... quite the show


Larger Hydei strains (from Houston Frogs); the same but slightly larger
Isopods - love them if they get them
Springtails - not so enticing for these guys
Tincs, Auratus, Leucs, Ranitomeya, Oophaga

Staple: Dusted Hydei and Mel FF (Hydei for Tincs / Auratus / Leucs, Melanogaster for the rest)
Springtails
Pros: they seem to like them... a LOT. I don't know why, but they prefer them over FFs
Cons: dusting is tricky. I've found it's possible with a lot of work / a lot of Cal+ if you first dump the springtails into a deli container
I also keep springtails on calcium-bearing clay / leaves, so I just need to flip the container and out they come (with no water)
Another way I add calcium is via gut-loading. So adding cal+ to the yeast I feed them 24-48 hours before I feed the springs

Good to use a mix (giants, whites, podura)

Smaller isopods - also good if they can get them


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

I feed my terribilis with the exception of the crickets otherwise. FF Hydei dusted every two days, the other day some Black soldier fly larvae (XS), tropical isopods and sometimes a wax moth larva. Here there is a lot of hunting for springtails. That may be because my animals are not yet old.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Differnt Aphids, lice(both easy to culture) and meadow plankton is imo a must in all species dieet.

For everything larger than thumbnails I also give firebrats and beanbeatles.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I started letting a percentage of soldiers morph and freeze them. Spotted turtle really likes them. The lizards like them on their fruit. Im doing waxworms the only thing with that is I get more late stage larvae than I need, as my small anuran guys like a very narrow size range of the baby waxworms. I raise other bugs for my lizards and some pple i sell to. In past work I fed 1rst-day to 1rst-week pins, which were directly available to us to dendrobates and mantellas with good outcomes. 
I enjoy caring for crickets in the set up i use and wish i had enough time and space to breed them but i dont. 

There is a sphagnum-habitat smaller cricket wild sourced and discussed for its potential here that I was very interested in.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

My Whites eat small dubes and banded crickets. The dubes on forceps and the bandeds raised from pins immaculately in a feeding bowl. I was giving them hornworms but i did not like the character of my frogs stool per the volume of culture food. I very occasionally give them thawed pinkies with the gastrointestinal tract popped out for my own reasons. They're 22 years old in beautiful condition. No eye flaps etc.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Tijl said:


> Differnt Aphids, lice(both easy to culture) and meadow plankton is imo a must in all species dieet.
> 
> For everything larger than thumbnails I also give firebrats and beanbeatles.


Ah - I forgot to mention bean beatles (although those tend to be hit or miss with how the darts like them)! Firebrats are unfortunately not an option for me due to the risk of becoming a pest (steam / hot water pipes with central heating).

Aphids / lice / meadow plankton - care to elaborate? Searched around and found a few threads but little around culturing / what kinds are most suitable and anything to watch out for (risk to plants in viv).

Any "larger" worms (hornworms, waxworms, crickets, soldier fly) I just feed off to my geckos... they are also very happy to chase down any morphed soldier flies...


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Tijl said:


> meadow plankton is imo a must in all species dieet.


It is interesting to watch food preference when feeding meadow plankton.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

*P. terribilis:*


1/4" crickets
Porcellio laevis (small ones)
Porcellio pruinosus
D. melanogaster
D. hydeii
Springtails (they tend to find clusters of them in the tank and snack on them)
Waxworms (rarely -- very small quantities)

-- tried Silkworms. Some of them liked them, others found the silk distasteful. Won't bother with that again. Definitely looking to add Soldier Fly larvae this spring, sources haven't been great in the past ... trying bean beetles shortly. Hornworms are a good option but finding them small enough is a bit of an issue.

Living in the city and not getting out far enough often these days, field plankton isn't really an option for me.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Trying silkworms is a good idea. That's easy to get here. For the Soldier Fly larvae, the terriblis do a 'murder' here. The first time I gave them, they flew towards it. The only disadvantage here is that you get an awful lot of larvae for say $2. Actually too many larvae for the number of frogs I have


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## Captain Awesome (Jan 13, 2018)

I would think field plankton is a poor choice for many reasons. Pathogen exposure, unknown toxins, pesticides. 

these frogs are not from the same area as these bugs, so they do not have a developed sense of what not to eat. A bug that a native frog knows to avoid these frogs may not. Also a native frog may be able to process the toxins of the bugs but an exotic could not.

pathogens is covered extensively all over this board so I don’t think I need to go into it but people boil leaves, this is even one step closer than that with direct consumption.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Captain Awesome said:


> [...] pathogens is covered extensively all over this board so I don’t think I need to go into it but people boil leaves, this is even one step closer than that with direct consumption.


Certainly something I've thought about. I know decades ago people used them a lot seemingly without incident but who knows. I imagine it's at least a risk multiplier -- I mean even captive raised feeders can have parasites and pathogens to pass on -- but in theory it's almost guaranteed that there would be all kinds of micro-organisms on or in field plankton. I don't know, never used it myself.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Captain Awesome said:


> I would think field plankton is a poor choice for many reasons. Pathogen exposure, unknown toxins, pesticides.
> 
> these frogs are not from the same area as these bugs, so they do not have a developed sense of what not to eat. A bug that a native frog knows to avoid these frogs may not. Also a native frog may be able to process the toxins of the bugs but an exotic could not.
> 
> pathogens is covered extensively all over this board so I don’t think I need to go into it but people boil leaves, this is even one step closer than that with direct consumption.


My personal experience tells me feeding meadow plankton is probably one of the best foodscource for the frogs due to it's diversity of different nutriënts. It's not like the species of fruitflies, springtails, isopods or whatever.. we all provide our frogs directly come from the frogs habitat for that mather. 

I think it is also quite obvious one should defenitly be aware to not collect the plankton from fields were toxins or pesticides were used. I also always filter out spiders, wasp or other critters that could be harmfull.

The experience of providing frogs meadow plankton has been shared by many other breeders or frog keepers and the results have always been the frogs providing the best clutches and beeing in the best health and shape during that time of year.
If I understood correctly from what @johanovic told me, he would not even be able to breed his mantella without providing them the meadow plankton. 

And he always provide his frogs a ton of plankton as shown in one of his clips : Mantella baroni feeding

The large variary in insects just fill all the gaps of missing nutriënts in the 'normal' captive dieet and supplements.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its not like fruit flies are roaming through a magical jar of sunlit springtime.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Its not like fruit flies are roaming through a magical jar of sunlit springtime.


They don't?!? What's that lovely smell then?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Im always smelling them the foul the less foul the not yet foul


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Im always smelling them the foul the less foul the not yet foul


Clearly the irony in my post did not come across well enough.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

*P. terribilis and bicolor*


1/4" crickets
D. melanogaster
D. hydeii
Springtails
Wax worms and wax moths
The occasional false widow spider found around the tanks (no pesticides obviously)
bean beetles
flour beetles (they only eat a few before the taste turns them off)
my fingertip if I take too long tilting the cup 😄

*Tincs:*

1/8" crickets
D. melanogaster
D. hydeii
Springtails
Waxworms
bean beetles

*Auratus:*

pinhead to 1/8" crickets
D. melanogaster
D. hydeii
Springtails
Waxworms (only my Costa Ricans and my wc's will eat these.
*Leucs and Galacts:*

pinhead crickets
D. melanogaster
D. hydeii
Springtails
Interesting observation from my frogs is that all of my wc frogs have a much more aggressive and stronger feeding response when the prey is a worm type of food that wriggles, weather it be wax worms or larva of hydeii and melos. 
I have tested this by offering them all at the same time and they always go about it in the following order. 
Worms --> crickets --> beetles --> flies.


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

eMCRay said:


> Hi everyone - I've been experimenting a bit with different kinds of "supplemental" foods in addition to the usual FF staple.
> 
> Wanted to share a few observations and see if anyone else had something similar or any suggestions for other foods to try. They objective is to diversify their diet, not to replace FFs as a staple. Let me know if you have any suggestions / additions; below are my observations:
> 
> ...


*THANK YOU* for the reference to *Houston Frogs*!

I hadn't heard of them before, but I have them bookmarked in several places now!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Perhaps the setae on the very young baby waxworms are disarming to some guys. As if they are not expecting the initial mouthfeel. But they are a good occasional food I think, a kind of lipid rich termite substitute, that holds supp dust well.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Fahad said:


> Certainly something I've thought about. I know decades ago people used them a lot seemingly without incident but who knows


IMO. Feeding meadow plankton is a practice that fell out of favor not because it caused issues but, because people became more careful and worried about things. There are risks associated with it. But, I never had an issue that I could attribute to it. Nor have I read about anyone else having a problem. I'm sure they are out there though. Just not the norm. 

I think it is an excellent food source and utilize it almost exclusively 6 months of the year and never have to worry about over or under supplementing. Back in the olden days when dart frog supplements sucked. I stopped using them and only fed meadow plankton when ever it was warm enough (a lot of the year in Georgia) my frogs looked good and lived well into their teens.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Mmm Georgia meadow plankton i bet was spectacular. When i was in Jacksonville Fla the plankton I bet was similar tiny iridescent splendor. I did spider keeping there and a couple Ladies had eggsacs that kept me busy with a net. Nothin beats Natures Southern cookin ..


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

This may be a silly question, but has anyone tried / considered ants?

There are a few species that one could purchase a "producing" colony with a queen in the US (or one could just find a bothersome one and cleanse through genetic turnover).

Could be very interesting - especially given that darts eat a lot of ants in the wild and the workers usually do not reproduce, so any escapees would eventually die off. Further, ants are relatively clean, can be fed "solid" foods even on an irregular basis thanks to their storage habits, have high production, and do not require "replenishing" cultures like FFs do.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

eMCRay said:


> This may be a silly question, but has anyone tried / considered ants?
> [...]


I hadn't actually thought of that. Just did a search on the forum and it's been discussed many times over the years, it seems. I have an early morning so I'm not going down that rabbit hole at this time, but apparently the harvester ants sold as feeders were tagged as too large and aggressive for PDFs ... that was one of the first posts I skimmed. Plenty in the archives which I'll look at eventually. I'm guessing there's something wrong/impractical or it would be at least somewhat common by 2021.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Fahad said:


> I hadn't actually thought of that. Just did a search on the forum and it's been discussed many times over the years, it seems. I have an early morning so I'm not going down that rabbit hole at this time, but apparently the harvester ants sold as feeders were tagged as too large and aggressive for PDFs ... that was one of the first posts I skimmed. Plenty in the archives which I'll look at eventually. I'm guessing there's something wrong/impractical or it would be at least somewhat common by 2021.


Yeah - I'd imagine the trick is finding small enough ants (or only using it for large enough frogs) and ideally more docile ants. Saw a few places that were selling producing colonies of hydei-sized ants which is where the idea came from.

Imagine the main reason why it's not popular is (i) shipping queens of most species requires permits in the US / is not legal in some states (ii) finding the right kind of ant.

So wondering if anyone has any recent experiences now that the hobby has grown and ants seem to be becoming more readily available - along with other feeders (termites, etc.).


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A keeping goal of mine is to cultivate one of the larger crickets sp. I raise dubia, mostly for other ppl but still feed out smalls. Many dissections of "low uric diet" large adults hasnt shown enough of a significant difference in material % for me to attach on to the handy theory it helps. 
For the small number of macrophageous guys in present charge I have my neo waxworms and I want some of Charles' termites this year.

I take my hat off to some of the dedication members have in culturing so many more food species and plankton harvesting. 

There is something lovely about taking the time out to walk and walk, and look and catch food in the out of doors, for the little frogs you care for; who live in your home.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

I‘ve recently fallen down some of the enticing rabbit holes around the topic of formiculture.

So far this summer I’ve found alates of 1 Solenopsis molesta (super tiny), 2 Crematogaster (small), and a big ol’ Camponotus. I was planning on offering small numbers of the smaller species (if the colonies are successful) to the frogs.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Broseph said:


> I‘ve recently fallen down some of the enticing rabbit holes around the topic of formiculture.
> 
> So far this summer I’ve found alates of 1 Solenopsis molesta (super tiny), 2 Crematogaster (small), and a big ol’ Camponotus. I was planning on offering small numbers of the smaller species (if the colonies are successful) to the frogs.


Yeah that could work - but aren't some of those (the super tiny ones) pretty tricky to keep (or aggressive / venomous) - Crematogaster? Let us know how it goes... would be very interested


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

eMCRay said:


> Yeah that could work - but aren't some of those (the super tiny ones) pretty tricky to keep (or aggressive / venomous) - Crematogaster? Let us know how it goes... would be very interested


I think the tiny ones might actually be easier to culture- they won't need an 'outworld' for a long time. Regarding the Crematogaster; I'd offer very few at a time. You guys might be the only group that won't think it's weird that I'd personally taste test any ants before offering to the frogs. 

The Crematogaster discussion might all be for naught anyway- the two I gathered were found stuck in water droplets and they haven't shed their wings for a week. I suspect they never quite completed their nuptial flights. The Camponotus and Solenopsis both have already laid eggs (and I'm super psyched).


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

_Microphageous. _

some - actually many textakes im willing to let go but some, Nah.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Kmc said:


> _Microphageous. _
> 
> some - actually many textakes im willing to let go but some, Nah.


Well macro vs. micro does make quite a difference...

Obviously the "natural" / in situ aspect of it is a positive, but ants also strike me as being low maintenance, clean and potentially more "stable" (vs. FF cultures) since they live in rather structured "societies" - plus, escapees don't breed.


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