# 150 gal planted and occupied



## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Update from 150gal build journal:
The tank is planted and occupied. My husband was able to rig up a pvc pipe/computer fans to keep the air moving and the glass free of moisture. The breeze is so delicate that it barely moves a feather. He also placed another fan at the other end of the tank to pull the heat out. There is a small pond in the center plus a pond in the driftwood on the left. The entire system is very quiet, something I'm not accustomed to.

I ended up putting my 'wunzies' in this tank. For the folks who want to scream DON'T MIX, don't bother. Most of these frogs have lived in harmony for many years and I've been watching the newcomers closely. The frogs have plenty of room, lots of hides, and rarely crowd each other. I keep my breeders in separate tanks.

Now, for the pix and videos :

YouTube - ‪150 gallon poison dart frog vivarium‬‏

YouTube - ‪2nd video Poison dart frog display tank‬‏

YouTube - ‪3rd Poison Dart Frog Vivarium video‬‏


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## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

i like it! but what's the pop bottle doing in there?


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## 16Azures (May 27, 2011)

that is everyone's dream tank that is so cool you must spent a fortune


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## SanduskySerpents (Mar 2, 2011)

I wish i could make something that awesome!!!.....but do to make lack of creativity....sigh


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## Gwba (Nov 9, 2010)

omg!!! you have got in there 3 diferent species!!! this is not good! You must separate them imideatly!!!! Or else they will breed and you will have hybrids!!!!


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

guppygal said:


> For the folks who want to scream DON'T MIX, don't bother. Most of these frogs have lived in harmony for many years and I've been watching the newcomers closely. The frogs have plenty of room, lots of hides, and rarely crowd each other. I keep my breeders in separate tanks.]


I doubt the space your frogs have is what people will take offence too. The size of your viv is irrelevant. Mixing morphs\species is not going to win you friends no matter how nice your setup, at least not on this foum. I like the setup, just not the variety of inhabitants.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

vespers_ said:


> i like it! but what's the pop bottle doing in there?


Don't frogs drink water? Jest kidding... I culture my fruitflies in my waters bottles AFTER I finish with them. It's a lot easier than the culture cups most folks use.



16Azures said:


> that is everyone's dream tank that is so cool you must spent a fortune


Not quite a fortune, but close. Actually, it's a re-do of our first tank 8 yrs ago, but we've learned a lot since then. I appreciate your kind words.



SanduskySerpents said:


> I wish i could make something that awesome!!!.....but do to make lack of creativity....sigh


Hey, we're not that creative, either - but there's a whole lot folks on the board that are, so, there ya go -



Gwba said:


> omg!!! you have got in there 3 diferent species!!! this is not good! You must separate them imideatly!!!! Or else they will breed and you will have hybrids!!!!



Actually, there are 4 different species - green sips, Leucs, Powderblue, and Azureus. Alright, shugar - rather than refer you to reread the original post, let me explain something to you. First of all, unless my fat-ass tincs wanna lay their eggs on the leaves, there is no place for them to breed. Second - I don't pull eggs from this tank. And last, but not least, it's a BIG tank and the different species tend to hang together, which I found interesting. Except for Fred (Powderblue) and Bertha (Azureus), my original frogs - those two hang together. Don't worry, I keep my breeders in separate tanks. On the other hand, there are species that canNOT be kept together due to stress, combativeness, things like that. I have a couple of female Cobalts all alone in an 80g hex because they are quite large and very ready to have families. The girls are for sale, btw. 

Thanks everyone - if y'all have any questions about the construction, please let me know.


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## Gwba (Nov 9, 2010)

guppygal said:


> Actually, there are 4 different species - green sips, Leucs, Powderblue, and Azureus. Alright, shugar - rather than refer you to reread the original post, let me explain something to you. First of all, unless my fat-ass tincs wanna lay their eggs on the leaves, there is no place for them to breed. Second - I don't pull eggs from this tank. And last, but not least, it's a BIG tank and the different species tend to hang together, which I found interesting. Except for Fred (Powderblue) and Bertha (Azureus), my original frogs - those two hang together. Don't worry, I keep my breeders in separate tanks. On the other hand, there are species that canNOT be kept together due to stress, combativeness, things like that. I have a couple of female Cobalts all alone in an 80g hex because they are quite large and very ready to have families. The girls are for sale, btw.
> 
> Thanks everyone - if y'all have any questions about the construction, please let me know.


SHAME ON YOU ESPECIALY IF YOU CALLED YOURSELF A BREEDER!!!


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Gwba said:


> SHAME ON YOU ESPECIALY IF YOU CALLED YOURSELF A BREEDER!!!


Not to worry, I won't take that personally. Get a little experience under your belt and then you'll understand my setup. Right now, you're kinda like a parrot, mimicking what you've heard and read. Hang in there, grasshopper....


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

varanoid said:


> I doubt the space your frogs have is what people will take offence too. The size of your viv is irrelevant. Mixing morphs\species is not going to win you friends no matter how nice your setup, at least not on this foum. I like the setup, just not the variety of inhabitants.


Honey, I don't condone mixing, but the size of the tank DOES make a difference. These are frogs w/o mates and I'm kinda sentimental about them. Like I mentioned before, I own other species that I would never dream of making this tank their home. I have Cobalts (way too big and aggressive), auratus and imitators (stress out too easily).

Would you say the same thing if they were all males? Half of the mixing debate is hybridization and the other half is stress/aggression. Let's address hybridization - in this tank, there are no laying sites. Even if a tadpole was produced, it would starve to death. Why, you ask? It's because I DO NOT PULL EGGS and there is nothing for a tad to eat. In fact, I've never seen eggs in the tank. Now, about stress/aggression - apply a little common sense here and you'll figure it out.

This tank is not the norm. Hybridization comes about when a person intentionally pulls fertile eggs created by two different morphs and allows them to morph out. 

I'm not trying to make friends. If you can get beyond the fact that there are different morphs in this tank, you might be able to see that the glass isn't foggy, the plants are flourishing and the inhabitants are co-existing happily. My oldest frogs are 8yo; the youngest are almost 1yo. I love looking at this tank and I watch my frogs' interaction with great amusement. They're too preoccupied with hunting or soaking in the ponds to worry about anything else.

Yep - my pride n joy.....


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Just something that struck me as odd, but if you're not here to make friends, then why bother? Seems to me, then, that it's just an opportunity to get people riled up intentionally. You seem to use phrases, and then don't follow through, which I feel leads to a lot of questioning on the part of everyone else as well. When you say things like "Now, about stress/aggression - apply a little common sense here and you'll figure it out" and "This tank is not the norm" and leave it hanging like that...well, honestly, I don't see anything behind either of these statements. I'd love to hear more on the stress/aggression, as well as how this tank is not the norm.

Also two notes on behavior that I've pulled from not only dart frogs, but the many, many species of fish and other reptiles/amphibians that I've worked with. Hanging around together does not make them friends...anthropomorphizing is very easy to do, but should be avoided. And stress is not always obvious. Presence alone can induce stress, and the "hanging out" can actually be a result. Also not sure if the two things they do, being eating and sitting in pools, speaks very well of the time spent sitting in pools...I've never had darts spend much time doing that.

I'm not condoning or denouncing mixing, since it's not really going to make a difference. Rather just pointing out some things...



guppygal said:


> I'm not trying to make friends. If you can get beyond the fact that there are different morphs in this tank, you might be able to see that the glass isn't foggy, the plants are flourishing and the inhabitants are co-existing happily. My oldest frogs are 8yo; the youngest are almost 1yo. I love looking at this tank and I watch my frogs' interaction with great amusement. They're too preoccupied with hunting or soaking in the ponds to worry about anything else.
> 
> Yep - my pride n joy.....


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## billysea (Apr 12, 2011)

Why not just appreciate her tank and let her decide how she keeps her frogs. Guppygirl do it your way and let everyone else eat flies.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

To the OP: 








Now that I got that out of my system...



> I'm not trying to make friends.


Okay, so you can come on this website to intentionally stir up trouble and debate so you can make yourself look better and put others down. That's just dumb and immature if you ask me. If you're not looking to make friends/learn from others, then why are you on an online forum? Obviously we can't force you to do anything with this tank so no one will really win the fight. When you say that you just leave the tadpoles in there to starve... I mean come on... that's horribly inhumane. I'm not going to say anymore but I could keep going on and on. I usually don't get involved in these threads but putting other members down for trying to help is just arrogant.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

dravenxavier said:


> Just something that struck me as odd, but if you're not here to make friends, then why bother? Seems to me, then, that it's just an opportunity to get people riled up intentionally. You seem to use phrases, and then don't follow through, which I feel leads to a lot of questioning on the part of everyone else as well. When you say things like "Now, about stress/aggression - apply a little common sense here and you'll figure it out" and "This tank is not the norm" and leave it hanging like that...well, honestly, I don't see anything behind either of these statements. I'd love to hear more on the stress/aggression, as well as how this tank is not the norm.
> 
> Also two notes on behavior that I've pulled from not only dart frogs, but the many, many species of fish and other reptiles/amphibians that I've worked with. Hanging around together does not make them friends...anthropomorphizing is very easy to do, but should be avoided. And stress is not always obvious. Presence alone can induce stress, and the "hanging out" can actually be a result. Also not sure if the two things they do, being eating and sitting in pools, speaks very well of the time spent sitting in pools...I've never had darts spend much time doing that.
> 
> I'm not condoning or denouncing mixing, since it's not really going to make a difference. Rather just pointing out some things...


The 'I'm not here to make friends' is a response to Varanoid's post. There are very few froggers in the south and I'm not as lucky as the folks up north to have someone to talk 'frog' with. I'm here to help. Different folks can share ideas for a better vivarium setup. One of the issues is is that the glass fogs up. We were able to overcome the issue with a simple airflow system. Another issue is the water feature - how to get to the pump if it breaks down. We set up an external pump system that works like a charm.

As for the tank not being the 'norm', how many 150g vivariums do you have sitting around your house? Yes, it was a lot of work and bit of money and the frogs that are in it have co-existed for many years for some, and not so long for others. I'm sorry y'all are all hung up on the mixed morph issue, but it is what it is. Once upon a time, I had a single, slightly disabled 'El Dorado' pumilio included in a mixed tank and he did just fine for 18 months. It was a matter of space at the time. After I was 'shamed' into moving him into his own enclosure, the little guy disappeared, and I really do miss him. I have no idea of his whereabouts as I haven't seen him in 6 months. I should've left him where he was, although pumilio are an aggressive frog. No, I wouldn't add pumilio to this tank - it's strictly dendrobates morphs.

I'm not trying to get people 'riled' up. It's a well-made tank; it's beautiful; it's quiet; and the 7 inhabitants co-exist nicely.

So, try not to get folks riled up, okay? Thanks ~


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## billysea (Apr 12, 2011)

Mitch you must feel pretty cool name calling on a dart frog message board, I didnt see anywhere in her post that she asked for help either. These are frogs, we keep them in our houses...climb off your soap boxes. If you dont have anything nice to say...go read your comic books


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Your tank is beautiful and hoping all goes well with your frogs!!


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Mitch said:


> To the OP:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoa there, big boy - how have I put any member down for commenting on my thread? If so, it was not intentional, so lighten up. Most of the newer members are paraphrasing every single mixing thread there is on this board. The frogs are my 'singles' and I can't fix up a tank for each and every one of them. About the tads starving? Seriously, there is no way these frogs can reproduce in this tank. If I understand it correctly, tadpoles prefer puddles rather than moving water. I'm a nature lover and it breaks my heart to watch the spring-peeper tads' tiny puddles dry up due to the drought. 

Am I correct in saying that they are different morphs? Yes, I think so. I'm not mixing species, and my frogs don't seem to know the difference that they're different morphs.

Trust me, I mean no harm. I was hoping to keep this thread focused on the tank rather than the inhabitants. Unfortunately, members keep bringing up the different frogs.....


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Colleen53 said:


> Your tank is beautiful and hoping all goes well with your frogs!!


Thank you, kind lady - we worked very hard to make it a show piece. So far, so good on the frogs, but I'll keep an eye on 'em just in case....


best regards,
kristi


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

billysea said:


> Mitch you must feel pretty cool name calling on a dart frog message board, I didnt see anywhere in her post that she asked for help either. These are frogs, we keep them in our houses...climb off your soap boxes. If you dont have anything nice to say...go read your comic books


Well said, kind sir! I (obviously) couldn't have said it any better.


best regard,
kristi


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## Vinnner (Oct 1, 2010)

First off let me say that the tank looks great

As far as the mixing goes, thats your choice and seems like nothing is going to sway you otherwise.

The only advice I can give is that it doesn't hurt to listen to peoples advice on the board. A lot of these members do know quite a bit. But just from reading the thread it def seems like you were looking to get people going on another "mix species tank thread" which ultimately leads to arguments and comments that def could be done without. Thats my opinion.

Like I said and others to, this is a place for people to come and learn. And I dont know where I saw this on here but im giving credit to whoever it was/is "once you think you know everything, then problems begin to start" (something like that)

Thanks

Vinnner


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## Gwba (Nov 9, 2010)

yes you really are only one here with 150 gal. tank... LOL


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Vinnner said:


> First off let me say that the tank looks great
> 
> As far as the mixing goes, thats your choice and seems like nothing is going to sway you otherwise.
> 
> ...


Thanks - we like it. I was hoping to help folks resolve some build issues. I guess my frogs got in the way - in more ways than one.

You're right - I was provoked and really shouldn't have responded to the mixing comments. My frogs, and I dig 'em. We're really pleased with the way the tank turned out, though. Our very first tank (also a 150g) was a mess - we were trying to do everything exactly right as we read on Kingsnake, which was before Dendroboard. I'm confident that this one will last a lot longer than the first one due to simplifying the water works and humidity control.

best,
kristi


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Gwba said:


> yes you really are only one here with 150 gal. tank... LOL


Now, I didn't say that. I asked YOU about your tanks, isn't that right? The only reason we started (ugh) with a 150g is we bought it for only $25. And that was because the back glass was busted. We replaced it with mirror glued to backboard. It worked pretty well for several years -

On the other hand, there are some that are humongous. Some folks have a whole lotta time on their hands...but wouldn't mind having one -


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

Nice tank!

I don't agree with mixing species as a general rule, but ultimately that is the decision of the keeper. The "no-mixing-species police" should refrain from attempting to nail jell-o to a tree.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> Nice tank!
> 
> I don't agree with mixing species as a general rule, but ultimately that is the decision of the keeper. The "no-mixing-species police" should refrain from attempting to nail jell-o to a tree.


I agree on both accounts, thank you very much. PDFs cost a small fortune as it is, so it's always best to know what you're doing.

thanks!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I think the tank is nice. 2 features that stand out to me are the trickling water on the left side of the tank, and the pottery caves on the extreme right side. 

I wish I had a tank that size to work with...

JBear


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

jbherpin said:


> I think the tank is nice. 2 features that stand out to me are the trickling water on the left side of the tank, and the pottery caves on the extreme right side.
> 
> I wish I had a tank that size to work with...
> 
> JBear


We love that piece of driftwood. It has kind of a shallow bowl that allows water to pool before it drains into the pond area.

Now, for the neat part - the 'caves' are actually cut up pieces of bamboo. I was walking toward the back of one of those big box nurseries and I found lots of huge bamboo poles. My husband cut them up to whatever I wanted and I used them to add some levels and hides for the frogs. Later on, I noticed in a magazine that the connectors between the hollow portions can be used for tea candle holders. I figure I could use them for tiny planters.

We learn something new everyday, and that's what makes life great.

thanks!
kristi


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

jbherpin said:


> I think the tank is nice. 2 features that stand out to me are the trickling water on the left side of the tank, and the pottery caves on the extreme right side.
> 
> I wish I had a tank that size to work with...
> 
> JBear


BTW, if you did have a tank that size, what type of frog would you put in it? I know it would have to be a frog that lives well in groups - otherwise, you'd have a whole lot of really pretty plants and something that moves around every once in awhile. And eats flies....


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Honestly, with a tank that size, I would probably house P. vittatus, OR D. leucomelas. Both do very well in groups and would potentially breed well. The Leucs would be far more visible, but the beauty of P. vittatus cannot be underestimated... I have never worked with E. anthonyi, but it seems they would be a great choice as a group too... 

JBear


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

jbherpin said:


> Honestly, with a tank that size, I would probably house P. vittatus, OR D. leucomelas. Both do very well in groups and would potentially breed well. The Leucs would be far more visible, but the beauty of P. vittatus cannot be underestimated... I have never worked with E. anthonyi, but it seems they would be a great choice as a group too...
> 
> JBear


I've never seen vitattus up close and personal, sad to say, but I do have a 1.2 Leucs. I love my Leucs! The male's call is so sweet. I had a group of Leucs in my 50gal swamp and they bred like there was no tomorrow. It was 60/40 land/water, so I had nothing to do with tadpole raising and ended up with a couple dozen or more. It's so much easier that way, and I think the froglets are more vigorous. The only thing is that they're cannibalistic in that type of environment - at least, in my case - so only the strongest morphed out. I know that there's another member on the board doing a study with Leucs and another variety, can't remember which, tho. He's testing cup raising against communal raising.

Now that my display tank is done, we'll be setting up 3 more - one to breed the Leucs and the other two for some type of thumbs.

Thanks for the input,
kristi


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I raised my Tincs in a pond style set-up with very good results! I am a big advocate of this rearing style. You are right about the strongest surviving... This may sound cold and calous, but who wants a weak frog? There are many breeders who skip this moral step, and propogate some poor examples. I would never sell/trade a frog that I consider sub-par, or not otherwise fit for survival.

JBear


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

jbherpin said:


> I raised my Tincs in a pond style set-up with very good results! I am a big advocate of this rearing style. You are right about the strongest surviving... This may sound cold and calous, but who wants a weak frog? There are many breeders who skip this moral step, and propogate some poor examples. I would never sell/trade a frog that I consider sub-par, or not otherwise fit for survival.
> 
> JBear


You ain't kidding there! Only the weak survive - besides, it's so much easier, IMO.

cya!
kristi


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> ...You are right about the strongest surviving... This may sound cold and calous, but who wants a weak frog? There are many breeders who skip this moral step, and propogate some poor examples...


As a question to the masses, is every metamorph fit for sale? 

It seems that people will sell whether the metamorph took a month longer and is still small, or not. For me, these frogs are best kept in personal collections, and not allowed to breed. Do us all a favor... Don't sell off the weak frogs. Simply keep them, or at a minimum, undercut the price, and make it known the frog is "weak".

JBear


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

guppygal said:


> BTW, if you did have a tank that size, what type of frog would you put in it? I know it would have to be a frog that lives well in groups - otherwise, you'd have a whole lot of really pretty plants and something that moves around every once in awhile. And eats flies....


To be honest, a tank like that can be quite attractive. I enjoy tanks where I have to look around a bit. For example, this is an old setup of mine...a 75 gallon that housed a single pair of pumilio. No comments on the tank, please, as it's not meant to distract from the original thread. Simply putting forth an example of a tank that (in my opinion) successfully encompasses the keeping of dart frogs in a single pair in a larger environment.










And culling, I feel, can be one of the most important aspects of being an excellent and responsible breeder. But that's just my $0.02


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

guppygal said:


> You ain't kidding there! Only the weak survive - besides, it's so much easier, IMO.
> 
> cya!
> kristi


So you do raise the hybrid tads? What do you do with the surviving froglets?


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Mitch said:


> So you do raise the hybrid tads? What do you do with the surviving froglets?


Mitch, please read very carefully. The display tank is the subject of this thread. The inhabitants are 7 frogs, 4 different morphs. I call them 'wunzies' and I won't part with them for sentimental reasons. It would behoove us all if you would stop with the tank mixing. You might confuse the noobs. BTW, how is it that you have nearly 1600 posts in less than a year? Is it due to harassing honest poison dart frog hobbyists until they cry? If so, please stop. 

And the answer to your question is that I've never seen a hybrid frog, except online. My auratus breeders , which are NOT hybrid, live in their own in separate tanks. I enjoy the egg-to-tad-to-frog process - it's quite unique, as I'm sure you know, or at least, heard about.

Have you ever had issues with your tank, assuming that you have one? If so, it's very possible that my ideas might be of some use to you. If not, thanks for looking. Byebye.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Honestly, Guppypal, if you knew anything about this board you should have posted your tank and kept the inhabitants up to the imagination of everyone...Or even lied about it. Im 100% certain you knew this thread would cause arguments, so dont get all mad and defensive now that they have started. Its the nature of the beast when you blatantly post a jam packed multispecies tank for everyone to see.

I have never posted on a mixed tank thread or added to a mixing debate till now...But common, seriously?


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

guppygal said:


> Let's address hybridization - in this tank, there are no laying sites. Even if a tadpole was produced, it would starve to death. Why, you ask? It's because I DO NOT PULL EGGS and there is nothing for a tad to eat.


I don't have an opinion to add to the mix tank storm but I feel I should share my experiences with regard to the above quote. I do not have any egg laying sites in my tanks nor do I pull eggs or feed my tads. I leave it completely up to nature and I still get constant breeding. The tads will eat fruit flies that have fallen into the water and sunk, and they will eat the decaying organic matter in the water areas. The frogs tend to lay their clutches near the axial of the broms on the base of the leaves, this is how my Panamanian auratus always do it. I still can't find where my leucs lay their eggs as there are no broms in their tank just pathos. The point is they succeed just fine without any help from me.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

guppygal said:


> Mitch, please read very carefully. The display tank is the subject of this thread. The inhabitants are 7 frogs, 4 different morphs. I call them 'wunzies' and I won't part with them for sentimental reasons. It would behoove us all if you would stop with the tank mixing. You might confuse the noobs. BTW, how is it that you have nearly 1600 posts in less than a year? Is it due to harassing honest poison dart frog hobbyists until they cry? If so, please stop.
> 
> And the answer to your question is that I've never seen a hybrid frog, except online. My auratus breeders , which are NOT hybrid, live in their own in separate tanks. I enjoy the egg-to-tad-to-frog process - it's quite unique, as I'm sure you know, or at least, heard about.
> 
> Have you ever had issues with your tank, assuming that you have one? If so, it's very possible that my ideas might be of some use to you. If not, thanks for looking. Byebye.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

> BTW, how is it that you have nearly 1600 posts in less than a year?


How is it you only have 193 posts in 4 years, yet you say you are here to help?








Mitch said:


>


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

i cannot stop laughing!!!

thought I'd add to it...lol


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

Sorry Boabab95 but post count means what?

I must agree that I too agree with Darwin's principles of survival of the fittest, the weak do not strengthen the gene pool, look at humanity and tell me I'm wrong.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> Sorry Boabab95 but post count means what?


That's my point exactly...


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I feel bad for the OP. I think it took a lot of guts to be honest about the tank. I really don't think she was trying to stir things up. In fact, as I have read through this thread, she has continued to ask that the frogs be left out of the talk. The reason the thread was posted was b/c she was proud of the tank, and felt as though others may like it and want construction tips. The only reason the frogs were mentioned is due to the videos posted and the fact that the frogs cannot be hidden. 
To be honest, as long as eggs aren't produced/allowed to develop, I don't care at all what species are in HER tank. However if eggs were produced I would sincerely hope they would be destroyed instead of allowing "curiousities" to accidentally muck things up for us all...

JBear


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

guppygal said:


> Actually, there are 4 different species - green sips, Leucs, Powderblue, and Azureus.


That would be two species, _D. leucomelas_ and _D. tinctorius_. You should take a look through all the "surprise froglet" threads before you declare that it impossible for them to breed and produce froglets in there.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Tony said:


> That would be two species, _D. leucomelas_ and _D. tinctorius_. You should take a look through all the "surprise froglet" threads before you declare that it impossible for them to breed and produce froglets in there.


Although I have come to the defense of the OP(and IMO for good reason), I agree, there are plenty places to procreate. The bamboo levels I mentioned, and the middle pool, are just some options for reproduction, not to mention the broms... From my reading, frogs WANT to breed and have offspring, and can do a pretty good job hiding eggs when they notice a clutch missing. As Tony eluded to, these frogs WILL eventually breed. The eggs must be discarded. 

JBear


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> As a question to the masses, is every metamorph fit for sale?
> 
> It seems that people will sell whether the metamorph took a month longer and is still small, or not. For me, these frogs are best kept in personal collections, and not allowed to breed. Do us all a favor... Don't sell off the weak frogs. Simply keep them, or at a minimum, undercut the price, and make it known the frog is "weak".
> 
> JBear


Do you really think a lot of people sell "weak" frogs? I bet if you went to the big breeders, who are producing hundreds or thousands of froglets a year, and looked at their froglets, you wouldn't be able to tell the fastest morph out from the slowest. Don't you think they morph at different rates in the wild, too?


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

GRIMM said:


> Honestly, Guppypal, if you knew anything about this board you should have posted your tank and kept the inhabitants up to the imagination of everyone...Or even lied about it. Im 100% certain you knew this thread would cause arguments, so dont get all mad and defensive now that they have started. Its the nature of the beast when you blatantly post a jam packed multispecies tank for everyone to see.
> 
> I have never posted on a mixed tank thread or added to a mixing debate till now...But common, seriously?


Check out my 'join' date, GRIMM. I know a LOT about the board. I also know lot about poison dart frogs, tho not as much as some, and probably a lot more than others. 

I'm not at all mad or defensive. I'm responding to posts in the kindest way I know how.

Lie about the frogs in my tank? I don't think so - that's not the way my mom brought me up.

Define multi-species with this tank in mind. The last time I looked, they were all different morphs of the same specie.

BTW, how do you like my setup? We put a lot of hard work into it and it still has a lot of growing out to do. There are 7 frogs in this tank and they have a lot of room to roam and hunt and chill. I've noticed that there has been no glass climbing since we've put the air movement in place. What do you make of that? The temp in the tank feels very comfortable to me, so I'm thinking that the frogs find it comfortable as well. Could the two be related? I think that's a good topic to explore -


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

GRIMM said:


> Honestly, Guppypal, if you knew anything about this board you should have posted your tank and kept the inhabitants up to the imagination of everyone...Or even lied about it. Im 100% certain you knew this thread would cause arguments, so dont get all mad and defensive now that they have started. Its the nature of the beast when you blatantly post a jam packed multispecies tank for everyone to see.
> 
> I have never posted on a mixed tank thread or added to a mixing debate till now...But common, seriously?


Oh, rats - I forgot to comment on you're 'common sense' question. You are so right - common sense isn't very common anymore, now, is it? I'll try to explain things better in the future.

best regards,


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

tachikoma said:


> I don't have an opinion to add to the mix tank storm but I feel I should share my experiences with regard to the above quote. I do not have any egg laying sites in my tanks nor do I pull eggs or feed my tads. I leave it completely up to nature and I still get constant breeding. The tads will eat fruit flies that have fallen into the water and sunk, and they will eat the decaying organic matter in the water areas. The frogs tend to lay their clutches near the axial of the broms on the base of the leaves, this is how my Panamanian auratus always do it. I still can't find where my leucs lay their eggs as there are no broms in their tank just pathos. The point is they succeed just fine without any help from me.


Do you have a stagnant pond in your tank? If so, that would be ideal for tads to survive. I call my nursery the 'swamp' because the water doesn't recirculate like it does in the big tank. I raise my tads the exact same way, except that I pull the eggs from the breeders, which are auratus in a smaller tank.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I think the tank is beautiful, it appears you worked very hard on it.
The frogs are your`s to do as you wish. IF, by some chance they happen to cross breed please don`t release them into the hobby.
Good luck and thanks for posting.

John


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

boabab95 said:


> How is it you only have 193 posts in 4 years, yet you say you are here to help?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting photo.....

It's quality, not quantity. I have other responsibilities that do not include an average of 5 posts per day, and probably a lot more since you keep trying to provoke me.

It takes a lot of time and effort and energy for any hobby. I was just curious -


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Tony said:


> That would be two species, _D. leucomelas_ and _D. tinctorius_. You should take a look through all the "surprise froglet" threads before you declare that it impossible for them to breed and produce froglets in there.


Of course, it's possible that Leucs and tincs can reproduce. It's possible that any of those frogs could reproduce - but not this tank. It's a brand new setup and there is no food source available for offspring. That being said, even if there were a food source and a Frankenleuc was produced, it would be my Frankenleuc and nobody elses. 'nuf sed.

So, how about that new 150gal tank? As you may have noticed in the videos, there is a humidifier that comes on several time a day. The tank is heavily seeded with springtails and I see the frogs hunting often. Other times, they're chilling in the pond area or they're making use of the bamboo hides.

thanks for looking,


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Not trying to be rude or anything, but you really can't decide if the frogs in that tank will breed together or not. It's up to the frogs. The only way to make sure hybrids do not happen is don't mix them.. Simple as that.


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## erlese (Jun 11, 2008)

coming from a family of lawyers. ok. the first line in the starting post 

"For the folks who want to scream DON'T MIX, don't bother" says YOU had a previous knowledge that mixing was viewed as bad on this board to begin with.

these people on Dendroboard are not idiots!!.. yes. some zealous ones.. a small few, a bit of know it alls ( when they only have been in the hobby a few months). they just want to keep the hybrids from entering the hobby!!!! I get that!!!

#2 you cannot call the shots of what nature does!! frogs breed!! dont confuse Morality Vs Instinct. instinct is what frogs and animals are governed by!! humans have moral decisions weather they choose too. ( except when i see a very attractive female.. then my brain turns to frozen yogurt..) 

I am all for your tank!!! I really am!! a job Very well done!! 

Mixing your species in your own home FINE!!! its your call and im all for it in the privacy of the home.

but please... do not sell, distribute or breed hybrids and sell them into the hobby!!! if you can asure these people this.. they may get off your back!! I personaly much prefer and want to pay the extra money to breeders who keep the lines pure and have a good product!! infact.. will overpay for that work they put into their efforts!!! to keep the dream alive!! 

otherwise.. i love the the fan ideas, tank.. and the fact that your passionate!!!

" Im the Hobbo with a paintgun" booyah-kashaw


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## erlese (Jun 11, 2008)

BTW.. Very cool plumbing job!!! wish i had the skills!!!


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Has anyone noticed all the experts that joined within the last 6 months are giving advice to and bashing someone that has been here for over 4 years? 

Actual experience outways what you know because you read someone else say it. 

Just shut up already.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Posted By Gwba 
Re: alanis?

I don't know,* I don't have so much experience* and alanis I know looks diferent, but becouse here i have so much positive posts of you guys and the man who sold them to me is one of the most famous in...


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I understand everybody's concern about the frogs. I admire the dedication put forth by the hobbyists on this board. I know I'm not alone when I say that I never want to see the pdf hobby turn out like the hybrid snakes we've all seen and can't figure out what they are.

When someone starts a new hobby involving exotics, the responsible hobbyist starts out small and learns as much as possible. The difficult part about the poison dart frog hobby is that the frogs are cute/pretty/small/colorful and cool to look at. Beginners want to experience all the pretty-colored frogs without realizing that yes, they will breed and hybridize. OMG, what will they do, then? Odds are that those who allow hybridization do so on purpose because they haven't done their research and they really don't care what the 'Mixing Police' on Dendroboard have to say.

And then there are other, more experienced, hobbyists who are in it for the long term. Those of us who have had frogs as a hobby for many years participate in forums like Dendroboard and continue to do so, even after being vilified for showing off a very nice tank with different morphs. The frogs in that 150g tank are singles I've had over the years. I'm not going to sell my babies, nor am I going to split them up. I know what an egg looks like and I don't have a problem destroying it. Please, do not treat me as a noob.

I have several other types frogs in different sized tanks spec'd out for their particular needs. I learned their requirements from this board. There's a wealth of information here, but I don't think it needs to be repeated so many times in one thread. I truly understand your concerns and I assure each and every one of you that there will no hybrids produced by my frogs. I am determined as the rest of the active Dendroboard population to keep pdfs pure. There's no need for hybrids, not even accidental -

I'll climb down off my soapbox now.

My new tank is what I consider my showpiece. The glass doesn't fog over and I love to watch the frogs, inspect the plants, maintain their food supply. The frogs are doing their natural frog things like hunting, and watching the end of the fly bottle. They eat. They poop. They spend time in the pools and they investigate every inch of the tank, tho I've yet to see them climb the glass or the back. In all appearances, they look very content, and I believe they are.

It's a sweet setup, and I'm happy with it.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

guppygal said:


> I also know lot about poison dart frogs, tho not as much as some, and probably a lot more than others.





guppygal said:


> Actually, there are 4 different species - green sips, Leucs, Powderblue, and Azureus.





guppygal said:


> The last time I looked, they were all different morphs of the same specie.


You don't even know what species you have, and you claim to know a lot? Give me a break. 



guppygal said:


> It's a brand new setup and there is no food source available for offspring.


There is no detritus, algae or bacterial film in your water feature? Fruit flies NEVER get into the water and drown? That's pretty amazing.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Tony said:


> You don't even know what species you have, and you claim to know a lot? Give me a break.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no detritus, algae or bacterial film in your water feature? Fruit flies NEVER get into the water and drown? That's pretty amazing.


Thankya kindly for your comments.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

erlese said:


> coming from a family of lawyers. ok. the first line in the starting post
> 
> "For the folks who want to scream DON'T MIX, don't bother" says YOU had a previous knowledge that mixing was viewed as bad on this board to begin with.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking the mixing problem is with noobs who want every kind and color that's out there. The other problem is that they don't follow thru with research and learn about frogs and their breeding habits.

You are correct, and I sincerely apologize to all who have been offended by my opening post. I think my excitement at finally finishing this tank shoved my foot in my mouth when I mentioned the 'mixing'. I knew it would come about eventually, but I was hoping that as a longtime pdf hobbyist, I would be given some leeway. Apparently not here on Dendroboard. What worries me is that the noobs who are just starting out and want all the pretty colored frogs will stop doing their research once the 'Mixing Police' have their say, over and over and over again.....

Thanks for the kind words about the tank. It's a very new setup, so there is little detritus and dead flies and absolutely no algae yet. Sure, it will happen eventually. If eggs are laid, it's possible that the air movement in itself will dry them out. If eggs are laid and I find them, they WILL be destroyed. Maybe I should place a coco hut inside with directions for wannabe moms. I can only hope that if they lay eggs, they'll consider the hut. I'll put up a sign....'deposit all eggs here' -

In 8yrs, many of them with a mixed tank, I've never had an egg morph into a tadpole. Don't worry about hybrids beings sold - I've never had one nor seen one in person. They're beautiful little creatures just as they are.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Tony said:


> That would be two species, _D. leucomelas_ and _D. tinctorius_. You should take a look through all the "surprise froglet" threads before you declare that it impossible for them to breed and produce froglets in there.


Can you clarify something for me, please? How would you describe dendrobates and oophaga? Is it species or something else?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic - it's an honest 'would like to know' question....


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

guppygal said:


> Can you clarify something for me, please? How would you describe dendrobates and oophaga? Is it species or something else?
> 
> I'm not trying to be sarcastic - it's an honest 'would like to know' question....


I believe dendrobates is a genus, and oophaga a species.

JBear


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

jbherpin said:


> I believe dendrobates is a genus, and oophaga a species.
> 
> JBear


That's probably where I went wrong, then. I certainly wouldn't add pumilio to this tank - they're small but mighty. 

thanks!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

guppygal said:


> That's probably where I went wrong, then. I certainly wouldn't add pumilio to this tank - they're small but mighty.
> 
> thanks!


Classification is as follows:

Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species
Subspecies

So a Cobalt Tinc would be described as:

Amphibia
Anura
Dendrobates
Dendrobates
D. tinctorius
D. Tinctorius Suriname Cobalt

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

lincolnrailers said:


> Do you really think a lot of people sell "weak" frogs? I bet if you went to the big breeders, who are producing hundreds or thousands of froglets a year, and looked at their froglets, you wouldn't be able to tell the fastest morph out from the slowest. Don't you think they morph at different rates in the wild, too?


You make a valid point to some degree. The wild frogs do morph out at different rates... However nature is cruel and lacks compassion... These smaller offspring seldom meet demand for adaquate competition. I didn't say KILL THEM, I simply suggested not breeding them, and if sold, declare them as weak examples.

JBear


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

erlese said:


> BTW.. Very cool plumbing job!!! wish i had the skills!!!


Husband is very proud of that. I don't think it takes a whole lotta skills. If you're interested, I'll be happy to post pix and decipher his explanation.

best regards,
kristi


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Scott Richardson said:


> Posted By Gwba
> Re: alanis?
> 
> I don't know,* I don't have so much experience* and alanis I know looks diferent, but becouse here i have so much positive posts of you guys and the man who sold them to me is one of the most famous in...


You're a breathe of fresh air after being beaten down so much on my personal frogs. I'm glad that I stuck to my guns (I live in Tx ) about my tank. Thanks for doing the research -

kindest regards,
kristi


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Tony said:


> You don't even know what species you have, and you claim to know a lot? Give me a break.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no detritus, algae or bacterial film in your water feature? Fruit flies NEVER get into the water and drown? That's pretty amazing.


Tony, if I messed up the terms, wouldn't have been better to correct than criticize me? I know what dendrobates is, and I know what morphs I have. If Leucs aren't dendros, please share. This board helps people learn about poison dart frogs - isn't that correct? If my personal collection bugs you so much, try to remember what your mom should've taught you - if you can't say anything nice, just don't say it.

In the meantime, try to explain to the noobs why you're bashing a hobbyist about her personal collection. Or maybe it would be better if you'd explain politely why pdf hobbyists are as passionate about their frogs as they are and why we (yes, I said WE) do NOT condone mixing. Please don't make this personal as I have done nothing to you.

regards,


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

@Guppygal: Please simply ignore any and all comments about mixing. You will get all sorts of shit for mixing species on this board.

You know what you are doing. If you are okay with mixing species and are watching your animals and they have sufficient food/water/space; then by all means continue doing what you are doing.


There is nothing wrong with mixing species; it is purely _*OPINION*_. You don't like it, then you don't do it. Stop giving the OP shit for setting up a nice tank. If she has set up something wrong, for a fact, then by all means point it out. But where her setup is purely against your BELIEFS, do not spread those beliefs as if they were FACTS.



With all that said, I would like to add:
Mixing should generally not be done in any degree, but where done by an experienced keeper there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it (that has been PROVEN). These boards do not like mixing and that is the general consensus...ok great. That does not make it a fact. I am not in any way trying to discredit the knowledge on these boards, but simply because the boards are knowledgeable does not make that a fact either. Mixing, generally, is a matter that is independent on the animal in question. So I say again, until some scientific evidence can be found to establish the negativities of mixing, there is nothing wrong with it. The only mildly valid point is that the market will be flooded with morphs; yes, thats correct. But so what? If YOU don't want a morph that bad, then you will make sure to buy from a REPUTABLE BREEDER instead of the cheapest guy at the next show you go to. Just because people are dishonest or the market can be flooded does not create a sufficient reason to avoid mixing because the market problem can be avoided by any who care enough to do so.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> I believe dendrobates is a genus, and oophaga a species.
> 
> JBear


Dendrobates, oophaga, terribilis, columnea, etc...are all genus's

I.e. Oophaga----Pumilio-----'Escudo'
--- ^Genus^ -^Species^ -- ^Morph^


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

EvilLost said:


> @Guppygal: Please simply ignore any and all comments about mixing. You will get all sorts of shit for mixing species on this board.
> 
> You know what you are doing. If you are okay with mixing species and are watching your animals and they have sufficient food/water/space; then by all means continue doing what you are doing.


Thankya kindly, shugar. I'm very tired of defending my poor old frogs, but they will remain where they are at because that's what they're accustomed to. I'll take your advice and be on my way.

best regards,
kristi


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

boabab95 said:


> Dendrobates, oophaga, terribilis, columnea, etc...are all genus's
> 
> I.e. Oophaga----Pumilio----'Blue Jeans'
> ----- ^Genus^ ^Species^ ^Morph^


I think I get it now - I'll mark this post for reference.

tyvm !


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

guppygal said:


> It's a brand new setup and there is no food source available for offspring. The tank is heavily seeded with springtails and I see the frogs hunting often.


This was all in the same post. What are springtails, if they aren't food for offspring?


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> You make a valid point to some degree. The wild frogs do morph out at different rates... However nature is cruel and lacks compassion... These smaller offspring seldom meet demand for adaquate competition. I didn't say KILL THEM, I simply suggested not breeding them, and if sold, declare them as weak examples.
> 
> JBear


What makes you think that slower morphs are smaller? I actually find that the slower morphs usually turn out bigger, and are seemingly more robust. Most breeders also keep froglets in groups. I actually had a bunch of my blue/black auratus in a tank, they were from 2 months to 6 months old, and they all fed fine (smaller, younger ones and larger, older ones)


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

lincolnrailers said:


> What makes you think that slower morphs are smaller? I actually find that the slower morphs usually turn out bigger, and are seemingly more robust. Most breeders also keep froglets in groups. I actually had a bunch of my blue/black auratus in a tank, they were from 2 months to 6 months old, and they all fed fine (smaller, younger ones and larger, older ones)


My point is don't sell smallish, weak offspring. That is basically all I was trying to say... 

JBear


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> My point is don't sell smallish, weak offspring. That is basically all I was trying to say...
> 
> JBear


agreed.....and you will occasionally see "runt leuc thrown in for free"....in the ads, but unfortunately I'm betting most people sell them just like the others.....


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

boabab95 said:


> Dendrobates, oophaga, terribilis, columnea, etc...are all genus's
> 
> I.e. Oophaga----Pumilio-----'Escudo'
> --- ^Genus^ -^Species^ -- ^Morph^


terribilis is a species. The genus is Phyllobates.

Abbreviated binomial nomenclature refers to the genus by the first capitalized initial, followed by an all lower case species. Thus P. terribilis is Phyllobates terribilis (genus species). D. tinctorius, D. leucomelas, D. auratus are all from the same genus, but are different species, with morphs between each of them (leucomelas you've got nominant, banded, and possibly microspot, tinctorius you've got alanis, BYH, etc, auratus you've got Hawaiian, reticulated, etc.)

Also, escudo is it's own species, not a morph of pumilio, although it does belong to the same genus.

To the OP, first off, congratulations on building an awesome tank.

Second, you _do_ have a mixed species tank as you have D. leucomelas and D. tinctorius (with three morphs of tincs).

Now, I could go on about my personal opinion about what you've done with the inhabitants of your mixed tank, but I'm not going to do that. I _will_ echo what Tony said, between FFs falling into any stagnant water, detritus, algae, etc... I'm willing to bet there's _some_ way for your frogs to produce offspring (you don't need to provide lay spots... some of my larger frogs lay right on the leaf litter if they feel they've got no where else). And I'll echo what someone else said. You've been on the board for four years. You've been around long enough to know what was going to happen when you posted about your mixed species tank.


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## Gwba (Nov 9, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> Posted By Gwba
> Re: alanis?
> 
> I don't know,* I don't have so much experience* and alanis I know looks diferent, but becouse here i have so much positive posts of you guys and the man who sold them to me is one of the most famous in...


Yes I am new in this hobby and I don't have so much exsperience like you Scott. But I am a quick learner and I know what is right and what is wrong!!!
I am also a co-owner of a pet-shop and we have 6 vivariums with pdf's, and there is no mixing of species!!! Why? Becouse I care for this beautiful hobby, and I don't won't that pdf's hobby end like some of the other hobby's where hybrid is everything and original like from the wild is cheap and worth nothing!!!!
Sorry becouse I said don't mix, but simply as that: I CARE!!!!
(I hope you understand my English)
regards from Slovenia
David


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

SmackoftheGods said:


> terribilis is a species. The genus is Phyllobates.


ya, i noticed that after the editing time was up.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

lincolnrailers said:


> This was all in the same post. What are springtails, if they aren't food for offspring?


I wasn't aware that tads ate springs - is that really true? 

Geez, I learns sumptin new everyday....


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Wow. That tank is amazing! I absolutely love it. 
And while I won't make this ENTIRE comment about mixing, because that isn't what this thread is about, I do have a little comment. While it's not something that I would do personally, It is YOUR tank, It's absolutely amazing, and no one has the right to tell you what to do with it or what to stock it with. As long as the animals are happy and healthy, there shouldn't be a problem. And if there is, you'll learn from your mistakes. You certainly don't need a million and three forum members screaming at you to know that! Thinking about it, I have, on a few occasions, been the know-it-all noob screaming and hollering "HYBRIDS IS BAAAAD!" And now I know that's not the way to handle things. That is just how you discourage people. You get more bees with honey than vinegar.
And back from my rambling, again, love the tank. If I were to try something of this size, it would come out looking like....I can't even think of a clever metaphor to describe the horror that would be in that glass box. Ugh..... gives me chills thinking about it.....


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Mapp said:


> Wow. That tank is amazing! I absolutely love it.
> And while I won't make this ENTIRE comment about mixing, because that isn't what this thread is about, I do have a little comment. While it's not something that I would do personally, It is YOUR tank, It's absolutely amazing, and no one has the right to tell you what to do with it or what to stock it with. As long as the animals are happy and healthy, there shouldn't be a problem. And if there is, you'll learn from your mistakes. You certainly don't need a million and three forum members screaming at you to know that! Thinking about it, I have, on a few occasions, been the know-it-all noob screaming and hollering "HYBRIDS IS BAAAAD!" And now I know that's not the way to handle things. That is just how you discourage people. You get more bees with honey than vinegar.
> And back from my rambling, again, love the tank. If I were to try something of this size, it would come out looking like....I can't even think of a clever metaphor to describe the horror that would be in that glass box. Ugh..... gives me chills thinking about it.....


You just made my day - thank you!

Indeed, I have learned from my mistakes and that is why these specific frogs inhabit this gorgeous tank. 150 gal and only 7 frogs - I'm good with that. They're my personal babies. I'm working on adding a few more broms to the background, possibly some type of climbing vine (the dreaded ficus pumila?) - I'm open to suggestions.

thanks and kindest regards,
kristi


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Mapp said:


> Wow. That tank is amazing! I absolutely love it.
> And while I won't make this ENTIRE comment about mixing, because that isn't what this thread is about, I do have a little comment. While it's not something that I would do personally, It is YOUR tank, It's absolutely amazing, and no one has the right to tell you what to do with it or what to stock it with. As long as the animals are happy and healthy, there shouldn't be a problem. And if there is, you'll learn from your mistakes. You certainly don't need a million and three forum members screaming at you to know that! Thinking about it, I have, on a few occasions, been the know-it-all noob screaming and hollering "HYBRIDS IS BAAAAD!" And now I know that's not the way to handle things. That is just how you discourage people. You get more bees with honey than vinegar.
> And back from my rambling, again, love the tank. If I were to try something of this size, it would come out looking like....I can't even think of a clever metaphor to describe the horror that would be in that glass box. Ugh..... gives me chills thinking about it.....


BTW. you're not from the south are ya? The sugar/vinegar thing is something my mom used to say, but then again, she was from Indiana.

Funny how things stick with ya -


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Gwba said:


> Yes I am new in this hobby and I don't have so much exsperience like you Scott. But I am a quick learner and I know what is right and what is wrong!!!
> I am also a co-owner of a pet-shop and we have 6 vivariums with pdf's, and there is no mixing of species!!! Why? Becouse I care for this beautiful hobby, and I don't won't that pdf's hobby end like some of the other hobby's where hybrid is everything and original like from the wild is cheap and worth nothing!!!!
> Sorry becouse I said don't mix, but simply as that: I CARE!!!!
> (I hope you understand my English)
> ...


I appreciate your enthusiasm for the hobby.

I also understand that you're from Slovenia, so this might come across as rude, but it's simply meant to be helpful.

Here's what's wrong with your posts in this thread. Multiple exclamation points clumped together when stating a different opinion make it appears as though you're yelling at people. You could mean it as enthusiasm, but it comes across as yelling. It's the same when you use capital letters excessively. Also, when stating a different opinion, if you don't use a little bit of tact people take your post as though it is intended to be rude. I suspect it's probably because English is not your first language, but when you post things like:





Gwba said:


> omg!!! you have got in there 3 diferent species!!! this is not good! You must separate them imideatly!!!! Or else they will breed and you will have hybrids!!!!


Or:





Gwba said:


> SHAME ON YOU ESPECIALY IF YOU CALLED YOURSELF A BREEDER!!!


It is extremely rude and condescending, especially if the person you're yelling at has a lot more experience than you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more or less on your side, but there's a right and a wrong way to deal with situations like this. That was the wrong way.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

guppygal said:


> BTW. you're not from the south are ya? The sugar/vinegar thing is something my mom used to say, but then again, she was from Indiana.
> 
> Funny how things stick with ya -


No, born and raised way up here in Massachusetts.
But I did get that saying from my mom too! Maybe it's a generational thing? Ahaha


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## train crash (Feb 8, 2009)

beautiful tank. mixing frogs is bad. i kid its up to you, your tank, your rules. 

on a side note never ever heard fo that saying (mayby its a few thousand mile barrier that stops it reaching us) and also i recoment as a climber the purple wandering jew. just keeps on growing looks awsom(purple and green) and there is nothing as satisgying as watching a frog take a poo on it, u feel bad because ur first reaction is to laugh because its got a name. it owuld be the same if it was called the tom plant, or bob vine. just because it has a human name it makes it funny. a bit of a random rant from me, but liek i was saying your tank is awsome and fair enough, why make a tnak for each of the frogs if you cant spare the room.


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## train crash (Feb 8, 2009)

on a more random note, ive been here for 2 years, this is now my 14th post, POSTING MEANS NOTHING, its not a currency, gratz mitch you have so many more posts then me, i really really couldent care less.

i love reading this thread, its the most entertaing thing on this website, purly becasue you have people on each side generally willing ot kill each other over their belifs(hello christianty and all major religions)


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

train crash said:


> on a more random note, ive been here for 2 years, this is now my 14th post, POSTING MEANS NOTHING, its not a currency, gratz mitch you have so many more posts then me, i really really couldent care less.
> 
> i love reading this thread, its the most entertaing thing on this website, purly becasue you have people on each side generally willing ot kill each other over their belifs(hello christianty and all major religions)


If they got away with it why shouldn't we?

Let's do battle. Whoever survives is right.


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## tyler (Feb 23, 2006)

good looking tanks! 
as for those raging about the mixed species tank dilemma, simply ignore...


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

train crash said:


> i recoment as a climber the purple wandering jew. just keeps on growing looks awsom(purple and green) and there is nothing as satisgying as watching a frog take a poo on it, u feel bad because ur first reaction is to laugh because its got a name.


Did you just say that it's funny to watch a frog take a poo on a plant because it is named the wandering jew? Dude.....


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

train crash said:


> on a more random note, ive been here for 2 years, this is now my 14th post, POSTING MEANS NOTHING, its not a currency, gratz mitch you have so many more posts then me, i really really couldent care less.
> 
> i love reading this thread, its the most entertaing thing on this website, purly becasue you have people on each side generally willing ot kill each other over their belifs(hello christianty and all major religions)


You are right, post count means nothing. I think post substance is what really matters on forums. Helping others, sharing projects and pictures, and tossing around new and exciting ideas....When is the last time you did any of that?


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## Gwba (Nov 9, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I appreciate your enthusiasm for the hobby.
> 
> I also understand that you're from Slovenia, so this might come across as rude, but it's simply meant to be helpful.
> 
> ...


Yes maybe there is something with my English, but still I realy don't like seeing mixed pdf's tanks. That is just my opinion which I want to share with you people... ,becouse I am angry that there are hybrids in the market...
And like we say here: 100 peoples, 100 wonders...

but 
Guppygal, plumbing on that vivarium is genious
bye


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Gwba said:


> Yes maybe there is something with my English, but still I realy don't like seeing mixed pdf's tanks. That is just my opinion which I want to share with you people... ,becouse I am angry that there are hybrids in the market...
> And like we say here: 100 peoples, 100 wonders...
> 
> but
> ...


Thank you very much, G - we worked very hard on this version of the tank. As far as the mixing goes, I've had most of the frogs for 8 years and I won't separate them. I do my research and I know what an egg looks like. Poison dart frogs, on their own, are some of the most beautiful creatures on Earth, and there is no need for hybridism. The individuals who do allow different morphs to breed are irresponsible. I'm not one of those people. I consider myself a responsible poison dart frog hobbyist. Everyone is focused on my personal babies, all 7 of them in a 150 gal tank. I also have a 80g hex with two female Cobalts, a 30gal with a pair blue/bronze aurautus, a 50 gal swamp for the aurautus babies; and a 20 gal with a pair of intermedius imitators. I'm currently bringing up 29 gal for a pair of pumilio. I waited just over 7 years before I thought that I was experienced enough to take on thumbs, and I'm excited to have an imitator tad in the water. Sweet!

It's all a learning experience, especially how to build a large vivarium. We learn by watching our frogs and from other people's experience. If you took the pretty colors off my personal frogs, they would still co-habitate as they have for the past 8 yrs, and without successfully producing offspring ....

BTW, I believe I have some pix of the plumbing on my home computer. I'll post those later on with some explanation. The best part about this tank is its simplicity ~

best regards,
kristi


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## Gwba (Nov 9, 2010)

Yes some more detailed pictures will be great! 
We are waiting...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> As a question to the masses, is every metamorph fit for sale?
> 
> It seems that people will sell whether the metamorph took a month longer and is still small, or not. For me, these frogs are best kept in personal collections, and not allowed to breed. Do us all a favor... Don't sell off the weak frogs. Simply keep them, or at a minimum, undercut the price, and make it known the frog is "weak".
> 
> JBear


 
And through these methods we begin deliberate artificial selection. This is actually no different than selecting for fine spot or sky blue or any other trait... 

Ed


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

> on a more random note, ive been here for 2 years, this is now my 14th post, POSTING MEANS NOTHING, its not a currency, gratz mitch you have so many more posts then me, i really really couldent care less.


I couldn't care either. Post count doesn't mean anything. I never said I was an expert, anywhere.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Mitch said:


> I couldn't care either. Post count doesn't mean anything. I never said I was an expert, anywhere.


I am so glad that we finally know that post count means nothing to you. BUT - it might mean something to someone who is new to the hobby and would like to respect the answers of frequent posters. In a way, it DOES indicate that a person knows what he or she is talking about. Or so I thought, until I remembered this 'helpful' post from you:


Quote:
Originally Posted by bmvazquez View Post
I'm a bio teacher and I took my 3 frogs to school on 9/6. I had a red-eyed tree frog, a green mantella, and an azureus. On Friday, 9/10, I was late to class and my genius kids decided to feed the frogs. They could not find my FFs so they went outside, found a red ant pile, and dumped 100s of ants into the cages. I got there just when the azureus was jumping away in obvious fear and stress. I took her out of the cage, put her into a tupperware, and brushed the 3 ants who were sticking to her off with a tiny paintbrush. I put her back in the cage after killing as many ants as possible. The guys at Blackjungle told me to get rid of ALL of the ants so I took her out again and emptied the cage. I had to get rid of her favorite log/hiding spot and "redocorate" the enclosure. Since she went back in, she has been climbing to the top of the cage and I have not seen her eat. She was quite plump to begin with but I'm very worried. It's been 9 days. The morning after, she was covered in thick mucous and her legs/arms were stuck to her body. I thought she was going to die for sure. But I watched as the mucous slowly began to clear. Every day I expect to wake up to a dead frog but she is still alive (but skinny now). She started using the new hides 3 days ago. I think I've seen her eat 3 flies since last Friday. I've watched for at least an hour this morning. She is climbing to the top again but seems to just ignore the flies. She was in crouch position about half an hour ago and she may have eaten 1 fly. She usually eats tons and tons of flies. There are no ants in the cage. Is there anything I can do?? How long can she go on like this? Do frogs who stop eating ever start again? The little mantella was dead the next morning after the ant attack. The red-eyed tree frog is fine.<QUOTE>

And the VERY first response she got was from you -



Mitch said:


> First off, those kids are idiots, you should dump red ants on them and see how it makes them feel. If the Azureus seems to be healing up, let him be, he will eventually want food again. Also, are these frogs all in one tank? Mixing is generally frowned upon on this forum, just as a heads up.


Not very helpful, now, was it, Mitch? The good news is that Kabluey is doing fine and I still keep in touch with Bertha.

If you can't say anything nice (or helpful), just don't say it ~


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

guppygal said:


> I am so glad that we finally know that post count means nothing to you. BUT - it might mean something to someone who is new to the hobby and would like to respect the answers of frequent posters. In a way, it DOES indicate that a person knows what he or she is talking about. Or so I thought, until I remembered this 'helpful' post from you:
> 
> And the VERY first response she got was from you -
> 
> ...


I don't see anything wrong with that post. What I didn't realize at the time was that the different animals were in separate cages. What's wrong with the other info, though? I like to joke around, obviously the teacher isn't going to dump red ants on her students. 

I'm getting sick of all the arguing here. You have your opinions, and I have mine. We both can say and do whatever we want because this is the internet. I'm going to stop posting in this thread after this post.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Oh, and I should leave with this: 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-K0nnrYkI0jI/Tbcadp9-AzI/AAAAAAAAAfg/LDeknmymbrw/s1600/internet%2Barguing.jpg


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Oh dear. I think this is the part where someone pulls out a gun. 
But seriously. I think we all need to step back, take a breath, and only reply if we have a comment pertaining to the original topic of this thread, *guppygal's 150 gallon tank*, not mixing, not whether post count and seniority are the same thing, just her tank, and I think that all posts that aren't at least loosely related to that should be regarded as spam or at the very least be turned into another thread so this one stays on topic.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Mitch said:


> I don't see anything wrong with that post. What I didn't realize at the time was that the different animals were in separate cages. What's wrong with the other info, though? I like to joke around, obviously the teacher isn't going to dump red ants on her students.
> 
> I'm getting sick of all the arguing here. You have your opinions, and I have mine. We both can say and do whatever we want because this is the internet. I'm going to stop posting in this thread after this post.


I don't think the teacher was in a joking mood. Point of this post is that yours posts are pointless. Share your experience, offer your help, or just go on your way, which is what I'm glad you're finally doing.

<<silly wabbit>>.......


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Mapp said:


> Oh dear. I think this is the part where someone pulls out a gun.
> But seriously. I think we all need to step back, take a breath, and only reply if we have a comment pertaining to the original topic of this thread, *guppygal's 150 gallon tank*, not mixing, not whether post count and seniority are the same thing, just her tank, and I think that all posts that aren't at least loosely related to that should be regarded as spam or at the very least be turned into another thread so this one stays on topic.


I agree, and guns are legal here in Tx ....

I have request for plumbing pix of the tank, so I'll start a new thread.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Mapp said:


> Oh dear. I think this is the part where someone pulls out a gun.
> But seriously. I think we all need to step back, take a breath, and only reply if we have a comment pertaining to the original topic of this thread, *guppygal's 150 gallon tank*, not mixing, not whether post count and seniority are the same thing, just her tank, and I think that all posts that aren't at least loosely related to that should be regarded as spam or at the very least be turned into another thread so this one stays on topic.


I have been tracking this post for several days know. I have tried to keep out of it but a couple thing need to be stated: The OP in the opening thread discusses mixing. Mixing was addressed in the OP's orignal thread so your point is moot.

So know I'm going to talk about mixing. In general I think mixing is a bad idea. However there are responsible members in this hobby that mix and do it the right way. Based on this post the OP has demonstrated she is capable of managing a suitable habitat for a mixed tank. However there have been other post that suggest otherwise. Its debatable, but that is not my issue. this is my problem:

You are posting a mixed tank on youtube to be seen by pretty much anyone. I personally have a problem with that. It sets a poor example. I think the reasons behind my belief are pretty obvious. I understand you are very proud of the tank and you should be. But poor choice of media outlet. I'm sorry but right or wrong that is the way I feel


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

PantMan said:


> I have been tracking this post for several days know. I have tried to keep out of it but a couple thing need to be stated: The OP in the opening thread discusses mixing. Mixing was addressed in the OP's orignal thread so your point is moot.]


Yes, she did. And I believe she said:


guppygal said:


> For the folks who want to scream DON'T MIX, don't bother.


I think that might be a little hint to where she didn't want the thread to go. 

And when I said:


Mapp said:


> Oh dear. I think this is the part where someone pulls out a gun.
> But seriously. I think we all need to step back, take a breath, and only reply if we have a comment pertaining to the original topic of this thread, guppygal's 150 gallon tank, not mixing, not whether post count and seniority are the same thing, just her tank, and I think that all posts that aren't at least loosely related to that should be regarded as spam or at the very least be turned into another thread so this one stays on topic.


I meant to stop the arguing, not create more material to argue over!
Think about this. Everyone has an opinion. And people with conflicting opinions rarely, if EVER change the situation to favor them by starting/continuing/participating in arguments. You expressing your disapproval of her posting those videos isn't just going to magically compel her to remove them. It's just going to get everyone pissed off at each other. Please, oh please, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't hobbies supposed to bring people with similar interests together, not fill a forum up with people who hate each other? I'm not just addressing your comment, Pantman, as it was pretty mild compared to some other things I've seen, but to some of the other arguments on here. I don't understand this "Your point is invalid because [insert pathetic excuse to carry on the argument here]" attitude that many seem to have around here. There's a difference between a civilized discussion and a full-fledged pissing match. This form certainly is helpful, and hands-down the best source of dartfrog information on the internet, but some people take it too far. While I feel like I shouldn't have to ANNOUNCE my leaving, this will most likely be my final post on this thread because I feel I have nothing on-topic to contribute.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

PantMan said:


> I have been tracking this post for several days know. I have tried to keep out of it but a couple thing need to be stated: The OP in the opening thread discusses mixing. Mixing was addressed in the OP's orignal thread so your point is moot.
> 
> So know I'm going to talk about mixing. In general I think mixing is a bad idea. However there are responsible members in this hobby that mix and do it the right way. Based on this post the OP has demonstrated she is capable of managing a suitable habitat for a mixed tank. However there have been other post that suggest otherwise. Its debatable, but that is not my issue. this is my problem:
> 
> You are posting a mixed tank on youtube to be seen by pretty much anyone. I personally have a problem with that. It sets a poor example. I think the reasons behind my belief are pretty obvious. I understand you are very proud of the tank and you should be. But poor choice of media outlet. I'm sorry but right or wrong that is the way I feel


I honestly tried to post the videos here first. For some reason, I couldn't make 'em go. The only other place I could think of is YouTube, so right or wrong, that's where they are.

Thanks for the input ~


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Mapp I understand what your saying but along the same lines the Op is suggesting

I am doing something that will be seen as questionable to members here but I don't want to discuss. Unfortunately, like it or its inviting comment. its human nature. Its why we all slow down at a car accident scene. 

Honestly after posting i felt a tinge of regret for posting here so I started a separate thread in thunderdome. I wouldn't call it a confession more of questioning my own personal judgement.


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## fishboykaps (Dec 29, 2009)

Nice! I really like what you have done with it!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

If in the OP she stated "don't bother" because we're not going to change her mind, then fine. If in the OP she stated "don't bother" to try and keep this from being a mixing thread... tough crap. Despite the OP's desire for the direction of the thread, despite the OP's obstinance toward non-mixers, despite whether the OP is displaying a good comprehension of how to properly mix species or not (it should be noted that my use of "OP" is not meant solely for guppygal, but all those past and future OPs who have and will start threads like this), it is the obligation of those of us who care to broadcast to those who don't have very much experience that: "this is not sanctioned by the majority, this is not how the majority conducts themselves, please don't mix."

That's a super run-on sentence... but I can't figure out a way to break it down into smaller sentences... and it makes me sad :/

Now, if the keeper is displaying good judgement and a good comprehension of how to properly mix species... then... whatever. Let them do whatever they want. But also let those they share it with be private so we don't send a mixed signal and we don't have posts from noobies that say "I saw this thread _________ and everyone seems fine with _that_ mixed tank. Why am _I_ taking so much crap for wanting to do a mixed tank!?" Slippery slope in those kinds of threads would be even worse than the "weekly mixing thread" we already have to put up with.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> If in the OP she stated "don't bother" because we're not going to change her mind, then fine. If in the OP she stated "don't bother" to try and keep this from being a mixing thread... tough crap. Despite the OP's desire for the direction of the thread, despite the OP's obstinance toward non-mixers, despite whether the OP is displaying a good comprehension of how to properly mix species or not (it should be noted that my use of "OP" is not meant solely for guppygal, but all those past and future OPs who have and will start threads like this), it is the obligation of those of us who care to broadcast to those who don't have very much experience that: "this is not sanctioned by the majority, this is not how the majority conducts themselves, please don't mix."
> 
> That's a super run-on sentence... but I can't figure out a way to break it down into smaller sentences... and it makes me sad :/
> 
> Now, if the keeper is displaying good judgement and a good comprehension of how to properly mix species... then... whatever. Let them do whatever they want. But also let those they share it with be private so we don't send a mixed signal and we don't have posts from noobies that say "I saw this thread _________ and everyone seems fine with _that_ mixed tank. Why am _I_ taking so much crap for wanting to do a mixed tank!?" Slippery slope in those kinds of threads would be even worse than the "weekly mixing thread" we already have to put up with.


Well, I can't argue that, and I won't. It took us many months to put the tank together exactly like we wanted and I guess I was over-zealous in my opening post. Mea culpa.

On the other hand, the harshness that's being dished out about 'mixing' will, undoubtedly, force unscrupulous wannabe pdf hobbyists to stop asking questions. I have no doubt in my mind that there are many of us experienced and responsible hobbyists who realize the ramifications of mixing, and we do our best to cull eggs. That aside, I'm still very happy with my 150g tank and its 7 occupants, some I would consider elderly. I posted another thread showing the plumbing which included a pix of the tank without the airflow system and it was difficult to see the pond. I see posts asking about keeping the glass clear all the time and I'm happy to say that we've figured out a way to do so. Last night, I was very amused to see the frogs putting themselves to bed in the bamboo tubes buried in the substrate. I wish I had my camera handy - all I saw were nose n toes.

best,
kristi


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## charlesg (Oct 18, 2010)

Wow, I really wish I had something that size and the space for it. I think of what I could do with that sort of space to work with


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

charlesg said:


> Wow, I really wish I had something that size and the space for it. I think of what I could do with that sort of space to work with


Shugar, it was a fluke that we ended up with a 150g. My boss sold it to me cheap because the back glass was busted. Do you know how much a piece of glass that size costs? Holy cow! We figured that we had a great big terrarium on our hands, until one day, after a visit to the New Orleans aquarium, we saw these magnificent frogs. It never occurred to me that they could be kept in captivity until I started doing some research and stumbled upon the Kingsnake forum (before Denroboard). My husband replaced the glass with a mirror glued to hardboard and the rest is history.

Of course, I doubt that it would fit in an apartment....

thanks for the kind words ~


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> If in the OP she stated "don't bother" because we're not going to change her mind, then fine. If in the OP she stated "don't bother" to try and keep this from being a mixing thread... tough crap. Despite the OP's desire for the direction of the thread, despite the OP's obstinance toward non-mixers, despite whether the OP is displaying a good comprehension of how to properly mix species or not (it should be noted that my use of "OP" is not meant solely for guppygal, but all those past and future OPs who have and will start threads like this), it is the obligation of those of us who care to broadcast to those who don't have very much experience that: "this is not sanctioned by the majority, this is not how the majority conducts themselves, please don't mix."
> 
> That's a super run-on sentence... but I can't figure out a way to break it down into smaller sentences... and it makes me sad :/
> 
> Now, if the keeper is displaying good judgement and a good comprehension of how to properly mix species... then... whatever. Let them do whatever they want. But also let those they share it with be private so we don't send a mixed signal and we don't have posts from noobies that say "I saw this thread _________ and everyone seems fine with _that_ mixed tank. Why am _I_ taking so much crap for wanting to do a mixed tank!?" Slippery slope in those kinds of threads would be even worse than the "weekly mixing thread" we already have to put up with.


Smack, if you were to mix a tank with certain frogs that you couldn't part with, what would you put in it? Please feel free to PM me if you're uncomfortable posting it publicly.

It's a learning experience, and someone almost always has something new to share.

thanks,


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Something arboreal and something terrestrial with a fair size difference in both. Also frogs that come from close to the same area in the wild. This is all covered in many threads, especially in the reference page we have for multi-species exhibits.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Interesting. I would think such a combo would work well for a vertical tank.

I appreciate your thoughts,


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

VicSkimmr said:


> Something arboreal and something terrestrial with a fair size difference in both. Also frogs that come from close to the same area in the wild. This is all covered in many threads, especially in the reference page we have for multi-species exhibits.


I don't know if Jason was answering for me or not, but... more or less, yes.

Gun to my head, if I had to mix species we're talking 250+ gallons with plenty of floor space and vertical space. I would _not_ mix any species from the same genus, nor any morphs from the same species. Super leaf litter down below, plenty of caves and such for my P. terribilis, and then tons of super-ledges, super-woodwork, super- hardscaping, super-planting up top for my R. imitators.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Super informative - thanks!


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Whoever said mixing is ultimately up to the keeper is 100% right, and so is my decision to not buy from the people that do so.


(....not from an "oh, you're a mixer," standpoint, but because this is a hobby where sales are made 99% based on trust, and I'm only willing to part with so much if I don't know you at all.)

When I already have to worry about diseases, morphs, and lineage, the fact that someone has mixed tanks in their household plants just enough of a question mark in my head that I'd rather buy from the other guy with equally healthy frogs and no mixed tanks. Just my .02

That being said, the tank looks very nice.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Thank you very much.

I had someone who wanted to buys some Leucs from me not too long ago. The problem was that he couldn't answer basic husbandry questions about poison dart frogs in general. My guess is that he thought they were 'neat' and 'pretty' and he wouldn't have to pay the shipping price.

I declined to sell, so I guess we each have our reasons whether to buy or sell. My reason was that he couldn't answer the questions to my satisfaction.

regards,


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I don't know if Jason was answering for me or not, but... more or less, yes.


Not answering for you, just things to consider in general.


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## singhm29 (Jun 28, 2009)

apart from all the outrage I have a question about your filter. I think I read on one of the many pages of this thread that you had made an external filter? Am I imagining things or is your filter/pump not residing in the tank and someone pumping everything from the outside?


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Yeppers, you read that right. That 'someone' is my hubby of 22yrs today. Here's a link to the plumbing and the pump type.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/69027-150-gal-planted-plumbing.html

give me a holler if I need to explain things a little better -

kristi


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Good job and nice design! Don't worry about all the silly people that get riled up about the mixed species.....I'm sure their head would explode if they went to a major institution like NAIB and saw 3 species of darts with Hylas, Anolis, Lamenctus and eyelash vipers....


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Thankya kindly, sir - I appreciate that, and you don't know how much. 

I really like this tank and it's been running beautifully since we finished it a few weeks ago. I have about 3 more to do and re-do before I can sit back and relax. Fortunately, they're all a bit smaller, thanks goodness ~

warmest regards,
kristi


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Gwba said:


> omg!!! you have got in there 3 diferent species!!! this is not good! You must separate them imideatly!!!! Or else they will breed and you will have hybrids!!!!


LMAO, this was great! I know Gwba was being sarcastic.

IMO the tank looks great and the frogs look fat and happy. You have shown they have been together for years so dont bother with the anti mixers.

Again, my comment is that many public displays do it and they do it in Europe with no problems, let the flamers go burn themselves.


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## singhm29 (Jun 28, 2009)

guppygal said:


> Yeppers, you read that right. That 'someone' is my hubby of 22yrs today. Here's a link to the plumbing and the pump type.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/69027-150-gal-planted-plumbing.html
> 
> ...


I knew I read something about it, my issue was that I had a big pump in my tank that although was accessible limited me from planting to heavily in that area. I never knew about magdrive pumps that have the ability to have tubing connected to the intake and output which will definitly make it easy to make an external pump system. Thanks for the post reference.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

JoshH said:


> Good job and nice design! Don't worry about all the silly people that get riled up about the mixed species.....I'm sure their head would explode if they went to a major institution like NAIB and saw 3 species of darts with Hylas, Anolis, Lamenctus and eyelash vipers....


LOL, i thought that too a couple of weeks ago when we went up. I was like wth? I was talking to one of the guys that came out of the frogroom and asked him if the snakes ever bothered and of the frogs and he said nope. They keep everything well fed. They also have a tank with a HUGE spider in it with the dart frogs and they've never seen a frog get stuck (or at least they claim that). Still looks cool though, just like in a rainforest.

Or what about that amazon tank they have right before you go up the escalators to the rainforest. Theres a couple snakes, tarantulas, several huge tree frogs and the dart frogs all on the bottom. Everything seems to do their own thing.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

JaredJ said:


> LMAO, this was great! I know Gwba was being sarcastic.


You apparently didn't read farther into the thread. It seemed sarcastic to me as well, but English isn't Gwba's native language... he was definitely serious.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Well, kids, I guess that coming out of the closet with a mixed tank has put me in the froghouse. I'm even being badmouthed on other frog forums, sad to say, especially when it's by another Texan. I can't undo what I did and what I have done for several years. I guess honesty isn't the best policy, is it?

So, here's what happens when you don't follow the rules - vendors won't sell to you and buyers won't buy from you. It's not like I have a thriving frog business, tho I wish it was since we're close to retirement. Pdf vendors are a picky bunch - they'll sell to a kid who they know nothing about, and then they'll read one thread and determine that the owner is out to flood the market with hybrids, which in my case, I've never seen in person. 

It's been a tough lesson to learn. I guess when the time comes to start selling my purebred offspring, I'll have to make other arrangements.

Those of you who do keep mixed tanks, make sure that you don't do what I did, and display their beautiful home. Otherwise, you'll end up like me - blackballed in the 'hobby'.

k


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

I don't see why you're surprised. You post a poorly designed mixed tank full of frogs that are capable of interbreeding and you expect the hobby to support you. As I've pointed out many times, a well-designed mixed tank with inhabitants chosen for reproductive incompatibility and suitability to available niches generates little controversy. Your mix is a disaster waiting to happen, and your attitude did nothing to help your cause.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Yeah, I guess you're right - I am surprised.

But can you explain the 'disaster waiting to happen'?


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Gal,Im not at all a fan of mixing,but that is a sweet viv,keep the good work


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

guppygal said:


> But can you explain the 'disaster waiting to happen'?


It's been explained many times, even briefly in my last post. I will not waste any more time debating it.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Dendroguy said:


> Gal,Im not at all a fan of mixing,but that is a sweet viv,keep the good work


Thank you, kind sir. I look at that beautiful tank and my dear old frogs and I have to realize that I can't get so attached. I'll have to learn to let go of my wunzies.....

k


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Tony said:


> It's been explained many times, even briefly in my last post. I will not waste any more time debating it.


Tony, I'm not looking for a debate - I just want to ask a simple question. What is the lifespan of the tincs? I tend to keep critters until they die of old age, and they're just over 8yo now ~


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

guppygal said:


> Tony, I'm not looking for a debate - I just want to ask a simple question. What is the lifespan of the tincs? I tend to keep critters until they die of old age, and they're just over 8yo now ~


 
Median appears to be between 10-15 years maximum is over 20 years.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Thanks, Ed -







Life is like a roll of toilet paper - the closer you get to the end, the faster it goes...


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

I think what people were saying was pretty simple. You have a bunch of individuals of different morphs......which you call "singles", but unless they are all the same sex, they COULD interbreed, and in a tank that big, it's highly feasible that they would, and raise froglets in the tank.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

lincolnrailers said:


> I think what people were saying was pretty simple. You have a bunch of individuals of different morphs......which you call "singles", but unless they are all the same sex, they COULD interbreed, and in a tank that big, it's highly feasible that they would, and raise froglets in the tank.


Sure, they could - I can't argue that. At this time, though, there is no food source for tads. Even if they were to reproduce, I sincerely doubt that they'll escape the glass lid covered by the wooden hood lid and invade the pdf population. But if superfrog can do that, it will still be subjected to several dogs and a couple of cats before making its way back to the tropics. I have no qualms about removing offspring from the tank as well as the pdf population permanently.

And yes, I know that I could get hit by a bus and die, and then what? At my age, I already have a LW&T regarding the disposition and/or disposal of any critter in my care. It's important for people of any age to take care of such matters, especially since 'life' isn't permanent.

I've always had a mixed tank for my own pleasure, and this is the only hobby that has interested me enough to stay with it as long as I have. Just recently, as my husband and I are nearing retirement, I decided to dedicate several more vivariums to individual species. I have a very prolific pair of blue/bronze auratus, a proven pair of Cayo Nancy, and a lonely female Intermedius imitator, which I'd love to find a mate for.

I've been watching my big tank for several months now. I notice that certain frogs prefer certain areas of the tank. I've observed several frogs soaking in the pond area. I'm also kind of curious how much more green Sips can eat before they burst. I've observed courtship behavior, which is normal, thank goodness. Even my oldest frogs are still 'willing'. Once they pass on, I'll probably remove all but the Leucs - I LOVE Leucs, especially the male's call. They're such a hoot to watch. 

I believe that there are more 'mixed tank' owners out there, but they are unwilling to admit it. It carries great risks to the frogs as well as to the hobbyist. I've learned a lot about poison dart frogs over the years, and a lot more about forums in the past few months. It's so easy to intimidate a faceless stranger, isn't it? I'm not referring to you at all, so please don't take offense. Others have had a go at me more than once, and I get it.

IMO, education is better than a bashing. I feel for the new hobbyists that come to any of the pdf forums, hoping to learn about frogs and the consequences of mixing. Odds are that they'll stop doing their research and start experimenting on their own. There is so much info on the internet about poison dart frogs that people really don't have to subject themselves to the abuse. I'm still a member of several forums only because I think I can help without insulting the person. I also respect the frogs in their natural form. Unlike snakes and lizards, there is nothing to be gained by hybridizing a beautiful poison dart frog. 

It's not me that the frog police have to worry about.....


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

However, if they know enough to not post, then they know enough to not do it in the first place. If they're STILL going to do it, then it won't matter what anyone says (as in this case).

As was said before, the problem isn't necessarily mixing in general. There are other mixed tanks on this forum that are receiving great support. But they mix properly, keeping species that are not closely related and will not compete for space in the enclosure.

There's a right way and wrong way to do it. If you get bashed for doing it the wrong way because you won't listen to anyone's advice and will very outspokenly do it anyway, then I'm not really sure what the positive alternative should be...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

guppygal said:


> Sure, they could - I can't argue that. At this time, though, there is no food source for tads.


Just a correction here.. if there is a body of water, then there is food for the tadpole(s). There is a aquarists term that covers one of the sources of food in this case, "aufwuchs". This is in part discussed in Tadpoles: the biology of anuran larva; University of Chicago Press. 

In addition, tadpoles deposited later are also a source of food for the tadpoles. The only way to be sure you don't have an area in which tadpoles can be reared is to either have no places where water can pool (as tadpoles can bury themselves to avoid short-term dessication if the substrate is soft enough), or have the only available water sources dumped on a regular basis. 

Ed


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Ed said:


> Just a correction here.. if there is a body of water, then there is food for the tadpole(s). There is a aquarists term that covers one of the sources of food in this case, "aufwuchs". This is in part discussed in Tadpoles: the biology of anuran larva; University of Chicago Press.
> 
> In addition, tadpoles deposited later are also a source of food for the tadpoles. The only way to be sure you don't have an area in which tadpoles can be reared is to either have no places where water can pool (as tadpoles can bury themselves to avoid short-term dessication if the substrate is soft enough), or have the only available water sources dumped on a regular basis.
> 
> Ed


I get it - they will breed. But I have never seen offspring in this tank in the 8yrs it's been in existence. So, are they not doing it right? What are they missing? I need to know so that y'all can prove me wrong, once and for all. And I'm sure you learned folks won't mind if I flush the tadpoles down the toilet, right?

Sorry, Ed - I don' mean to take it out on you. It's just that I've been reading DD posts where they gossip about DB, but you know that, don't you? Again, I've learned something ugly about these forums - THEY make the rules, and we bicker and fight like stupid kids because THEY make the rules.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

guppygal said:


> I get it - they will breed. But I have never seen offspring in this tank in the 8yrs it's been in existence. So, are they not doing it right? What are they missing? I need to know so that y'all can prove me wrong, once and for all. And I'm sure you learned folks won't mind if I flush the tadpoles down the toilet, right?
> 
> Sorry, Ed - I don' mean to take it out on you. It's just that I've been reading DD posts where they gossip about DB, but you know that, don't you? Again, I've learned something ugly about these forums - THEY make the rules, and we bicker and fight like stupid kids because THEY make the rules.....


I almost never bother to read anywhere else. It just isn't worth it. I was just correcting the statement about no food, nothing else. 

Ed


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Ed said:


> I almost never bother to read anywhere else. It just isn't worth it. I was just correcting the statement about no food, nothing else.
> 
> Ed


You are so right in all aspects. Geez, I guess I finally lost it, especially when I read on DD about deciding on how many frogs per gallon to tell DB members.

Now, if I could only locate a male Intermediate Imitator, I'll go on my merry way, to the funny farm, where life is good............


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