# Tads Die after Front Legs Pop?



## Kaity (Sep 18, 2010)

So my amazonicus production line has been chugging along very well until just recently. I have had 3 tads that looked big and healthy their whole life. They popped their front legs, I waited a few days, and then moved their cup into the morphing sweater box at a 45 degree angle. Pretty much within 24 hours of doing this they just died. I have 20 others that went through the transition just fine and are growing fast. Am I doing something wrong? Does the change in environment just kill some? They are going from a heated incubator to a non-heated morph box but the room is a constant 70 degrees. Is this a normal survival rate?


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

My experience has been that some species can tolerate being in the water longer than others. My tincs do fine if left in the water with all four legs fully formed. My pepperi and SI's need to be moved as soon as their back legs are formed and I'm just starting to see elbow bumps. If I leave them in the water when their front legs pop, they seem to drown very easily and I'll just find them dead in the water. For me, they've always had to have something to pull out of the water. I keep a piece of foam floating in their water in case I miss the signs.

Good luck.

Deb


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

I know sometimes with the nutrition requirements they can only produce so many before something like this occurs. Cycling them down for several months often helps.


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## Kaity (Sep 18, 2010)

Hmm...I was wondering about the possiblility of them being worn out because they have been producing ALOT. The tank isnt really all that humid...there are no broms. Could I remove the film cans and that will stop them from breeding? If there are no water pools?


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## Kaity (Sep 18, 2010)

I'll also try moving the tads the second the arms pop to see if they are just drowning.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Do a nutrition check, too. Are your dusting vits good and fresh? Using good, high protein tad feeds?


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## Kaity (Sep 18, 2010)

My vits are pretty new and fresh. I dust every time I feed with is every other day. I just indian almond leaves, spirulina powder, and spirulina pellets I got from another member on here. I was thinking of getting some of the New Spectrum Fish Pellets as well as alot of people seem to be having good results with it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You are feeding very algae heavy to a very cannibalistic morph. They need protein and lots of it! For right now, feed them some dead flies because you have them. Just pop em in the freezer for a while (the flies!).
Go to a good fish store and get a top quality fish flake. An excellent one is OCEAN NUTRITION. http://www.oceannutrition.com/index.php?lang=en I use a mix of there formulas but the Formula one is good or the community formula. Certainly better than what they are getting now. Another good one is Super Color flakes from Omega One.
You could also consider adding some Cyclop-Eeze into there diet. Get that at a good Reef store. CYCLOP-EEZE® : Home


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## Kaity (Sep 18, 2010)

Oh! Thanks for the info! I will get the protein heavy foods tomorrow. Just out of curiosity, do all dart tads need a protein heavy diet or are there some species that need more algae based ones?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Kaity, I am an "old school" frogger doing a crash course on catching up with the times after a 5 year hiatus. Back then, It was pretty common to raise most of them on an algae heavy diet. I have to admit that I have mostly been studying what I feel is pertinent to thumbnails and pumilio. As far as thumbs go, they should have more protein in their diet than we used to give them. I have always put an oak leaf in every cup for them to nibble at. I also include some algae in their diet. That used to be powders, but I am re-accessing that as Ed has informed my that much of the nutrition in a powder is probably lost to leaching into the water. He mentioned the possibility of an algae based gelatin that I wanted to ask him about. Till I do that, I think a spirulina flake may be a better choice than a powder. 
Reticulatus should be noted as an exception that seems to be primarily algae feeders.
Not in a position to comment on tincs etc.
Read this http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/20854-tadpole-care.html and also the care sheet on each species you are working with for some more info.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

In re-reading a post by Ed, it sounds like he is more partial to just skipping the algae, in favor of a good, high quality, fish food. Here is a cut and paste of his reply to me.
Ed
_There have even been swings in what is considered the optimal fish food to use (and I remember when these products were first marketed).. for a long time Tetra-min was a standard and then there was a big swing to Aquarian brand and now the hot one is Ocean Nutrition Brand....
Any good quality fish food is acceptable.. as long as it is fresh.. as with supplements these need to be replaced on a frequent basis and the freshest product available should always be purchased and used. A good quality fish food is actually a complete food source for the tadpoles which renders other additions unnecessary.
_


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The vast majority of dendrobatid tadpoles in the wild are found in enviroments that tend to be poor sources of protein which is why cannibalism is so prevalent. 

I would suggest looking at fish foods that are good sources of astaxanthin as this can be metabolized by the tadpoles for a good source of vitamin A as well as eventually being used in pigmentation. Many of the better fishfoods can be a good source of this carotenoid. 

A good quality fish food is a going to contain a decent amount of plant matter which is why they often work well for tadpoles adapted to a more vegetable based diet. 

Some comments. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

salix said:


> My experience has been that some species can tolerate being in the water longer than others. My tincs do fine if left in the water with all four legs fully formed. My pepperi and SI's need to be moved as soon as their back legs are formed and I'm just starting to see elbow bumps. If I leave them in the water when their front legs pop, they seem to drown very easily and I'll just find them dead in the water. For me, they've always had to have something to pull out of the water. I keep a piece of foam floating in their water in case I miss the signs.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Deb


I would not recommend using styrofoam in the tad's water as it could leach styrene into the water, which could be toxic. Just put a small piece of wood in there instead.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> The vast majority of dendrobatid tadpoles in the wild are found in enviroments that tend to be poor sources of protein which is why cannibalism is so prevalent.
> 
> I would suggest looking at fish foods that are good sources of astaxanthin as this can be metabolized by the tadpoles for a good source of vitamin A as well as eventually being used in pigmentation. Many of the better fishfoods can be a good source of this carotenoid.
> 
> ...


The CYCLOP-EEZE® : Home I mentioned is very rich in astaxanthenes.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> The CYCLOP-EEZE® : Home I mentioned is very rich in astaxanthenes.


 
Isn't that a type of fish food? 

While I didn't mention it in this thread, I've used it routinely in the past and recommend it as well.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Isn't that a type of fish food?
> 
> While I didn't mention it in this thread, I've used it routinely in the past and recommend it as well.


It is a fish food, Ed, but not in the traditional sense. It is not a formulated food with added plant matter, vitamins, etc. Instead, it is a whole Decapod, which is a tiny, 10 legged crustacean. Thea are biologically engineered and have the highest known levels of astaxthene anywhere. They also have amazing levels of HUFA's (Highly Unsaturated Fatty Acids) and are very high in Omega 3.
They are harvested whole and frozen, freeze dried, and "blenderized" (is too a word!) and made into a fish "wafer", (like a flake), but with nothing else added.

I'm not sure they would make a good "stand alone" food for tads but they are a great addition.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> It is a fish food, Ed, but not in the traditional sense. It is not a formulated food with added plant matter, vitamins, etc. Instead, it is a whole Decapod, which is a tiny, 10 legged crustacean.


I agree that it may not be the ideal sole product to use but it is good in conjunction with other quality foods. It can be used as a sole food in rearing a number of fish so we can't rule that out as well..

The problem is that we can't rule out the plant matter so handily as carotenoids have to originate in plants and the crustaceans probably have plant matter in thier digestive tracts.. as a further complication, unless the tadpole rearing containers are sterile (and kept that way) and/or in dark enviroments algaes (and bacterial biofilms) rapidly colonize the containers which can be an alternate algae source.. but one of the questions that needs to be asked is how important is algae to the tadpoles? Many of the tadpoles grow quite well in light limited deposition sites (holes and pools under heavy canopy)... and the predatory behaviors are well documented in a number of species. 

I'm not recommending that they don't need plant matter in the diet but it is possible that the hobby is placing too much emphasis on it.... 

Some thoughts,

Ed


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

What is the chances that they chew on a little brom/other plant as well if they are deposited in plants that hold water?

I have used Cyclop-eeze exclusively for raising seahorse and Cardinalfish I had breeding at one time. I never even thought of using it for tads....I still have some frozen sitting around....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Azurel said:


> What is the chances that they chew on a little brom/other plant as well if they are deposited in plants that hold water?
> 
> I have used Cyclop-eeze exclusively for raising seahorse and Cardinalfish I had breeding at one time. I never even thought of using it for tads....I still have some frozen sitting around....


They graze on the surface of the leaves (upper and lower) but if you check the strength of the bromeliads tissues (try gently scraping a finger nail on it and slowly increase pressure until you start to scrape up tissue (the intial clearish/whitish material is going to be wax..), it is pretty tough tissue. 
Keep in mind that not all dendrobatids utilize bromeliads as deposition sites so I'm keeping this very generalized. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I have a glass of water in the window that I've been growing algae in. The other day I scraped off a bit and put it in my sip's tad container. The tad swam right for it and started sucking it down. Neat to watch.

I've been feeding him fish flakes, dried blood worms and tad bites (although I've been writing down the names of the high end stuff you guys are recommending). Now I try to keep a little fresh algae in there for him too but it doesn't last long before he eats it.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Ed said:


> They graze on the surface of the leaves (upper and lower) but if you check the strength of the bromeliads tissues (try gently scraping a finger nail on it and slowly increase pressure until you start to scrape up tissue (the intial clearish/whitish material is going to be wax..), it is pretty tough tissue.
> Keep in mind that not all dendrobatids utilize bromeliads as deposition sites so I'm keeping this very generalized.
> 
> Ed


YEa that is true.....It is quite the tough tissue....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> I have a glass of water in the window that I've been growing algae in. The other day I scraped off a bit and put it in my sip's tad container. The tad swam right for it and started sucking it down. Neat to watch.
> 
> I've been feeding him fish flakes, dried blood worms and tad bites (although I've been writing down the names of the high end stuff you guys are recommending). Now I try to keep a little fresh algae in there for him too but it doesn't last long before he eats it.


Just to be clear, I'm not saying there is a problem with offering algae, I don't think there is a problem with it unless we are in another fad cycle where it predominates the diet again.. 

There are a lot of variables when offering algaes in that not all are equally digestiable and in situations like you have in your jar, those tend to not be monocultures of algaes but mats of multiple types and incorporate different bacteria as well.. which is why to interpret that as it is the algae that induced it to feed... 

Ed


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> I would not recommend using styrofoam in the tad's water as it could leach styrene into the water, which could be toxic. Just put a small piece of wood in there instead.


I used closed cell foam, but thanks for the input.

Deb


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I have had the issue of moving several tads to a morphing-out container after they had their legs, with some dying (this was especially true of Leucomelas). If the tads are moved into communal living while they are still actively feeding, I think there remains the issue of cannibalism (or at least they bite each other to death). I don't know if this happens with thumbnails, though.

Richard.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not saying there is a problem with offering algae, I don't think there is a problem with it unless we are in another fad cycle where it predominates the diet again..
> 
> There are a lot of variables when offering algaes in that not all are equally digestiable and in situations like you have in your jar, those tend to not be monocultures of algaes but mats of multiple types and incorporate different bacteria as well.. which is why to interpret that as it is the algae that induced it to feed...
> 
> Ed


Sorry, Ed, I didn't mean to imply anything with my post. I was just telling a story about my tad and algae. I do appreciate your response, though! Interesting stuff. Is it ok to continue to give tads my jar algae?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Sorry, Ed, I didn't mean to imply anything with my post. I was just telling a story about my tad and algae. I do appreciate your response, though! Interesting stuff. Is it ok to continue to give tads my jar algae?


 
I think it is fine to keep feeding it algae and I didn't take any offense.. I've just been around long enough to have seen fads in the feedings of the tadpoles... so maybe I'm just be sensitive. 

Ed


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## Newt1 (Feb 25, 2007)

I have been giving my tinc tads some live brine shrimp and they eat them up
I hope this helps get them more protein and is not bad for them
Steve


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