# Lights too bright?



## Kaben (Dec 2, 2011)

Do any of you have problems with you viv lighting being too bright for your frogs?

I have a 1.1 pair of cobalts in a converted exoterra.

I installed glass panels in the lid but left the mesh on intially. The frogs were quite fine whilst the mesh was in place - often out and about in the open but since i removed the mesh they hide underneath leaves and outcrops for most of the day.

I have a 90cm exo hood with two of the the 2.0 reptiglo and two 10.0 reptiglo bulbs.

I thought that the 10.0's would have been the problem since they are the higher UV/UVB class, but they come out a tiny bit more when these are the only bulbs on. They do have a slightly lower brightness that the 2.0 bulbs which are basically daylight i guess.

Are there any brands of bulb for vivariums that are not such a high brightness level but still beneficial for the plants? Or will my frogs adjust eventually?

If it makes a difference, the glass in the lid is pilkington optiwhite ( which i think you guys call low iron or something like that in the States) and that allows alot more UV/UVB through than standard float glass.

Any help/insight would be appreciated!


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

You need to check for the color temps (kelvins) they should be between 5000-6500. That is really for the plants, and you don't want to put out too much heat via lighting.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

With 4 bulbs on at the same time it probably is too bright for them. Yes the temperature of 6500K is preferred for optimal plant growth. There is some discussion as to whether or not your frogs need the UV lighting. The 10.0 bulbs provide UV as if your frogs were in a desert condition. Living on the forest floor the 2.0 bulbs would be your better option. B-Nice is concerned that the 4 bulbs you have lighting the tank might produce too much heat for the frogs, and that certainly is a concern. I wish I knew how tall your exoterra is. Your hood is 90cm which is roughly 35 inches so you have and exo that is sold as 36 inches long. How tall is it please? IMO if it were my viv I would turn on only the two 2.0 bulbs. See how your frogs respond to that, give them a few days, I bet you see more of them.

These are the CFL bulbs we are talking about right?


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## Kaben (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi guys, Thanks for chiming in and sorry for my slow response.

My viv is 36x18x18"

The lights are set in mixed pairs at either end of the hood. I too thought that the 10.0's would be the culprit but they do come out and hunt under those lights for short periods. The 2.0's are a much brighter light source overall and they just will not come out with those on - they sit under the overhanging leaves or sit in teh cave i built them at the back of the tank.

At the moment i am seeing the most of the frogs if i have the lights off completely - but that means i have to peer into the tank to see them, which somewhat saps the pleasure of keeping these fine little creatures.

The lights dont really put out very much heat at all. In fact after switching them off i can touch them and twist them out of their mounts in under a minute. I was actually worried whether or not i should get hotter lights to up the heat in the viv.

I am in the UK, so its alot cooler. The viv stays at around 19-22 degrees Centigrade. I think that is about 66 - 71 Fahrenheit.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

B-NICE said:


> You need to check for the color temps (kelvins) they should be between 5000-6500. That is really for the plants, and you don't want to put out too much heat via lighting.


You know that the color temps have nothing to do with brightness or heat, right??


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## TropicalDartFrogs (Feb 21, 2012)

Try using the 5.0 ? I've found these to be the perfect middle ground for me in my builds. However, the plants furthest down and away from the light have seemed to loose some color but other than that they are growing and healthy.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm not sure if anyone else has heard of this, but when I worked at a pet store I had a customer tell me that he had access to a UV radiometer at one point and tested the CFL UVB bulbs and was getting some wildly varying readings so I have an inclination not to trust them. Purely anecdotal though.

Max


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

@parkanz: i have heard of some bulbs giving off UV, yes, however the values are too low to be effective in any manner. The amount of UV given off by the 5.0 and whatnot bulbs is already quite low (on order of 50MICROwatts/cm^2 that is 10^-6 power)



I'm curious to this....you are using TWO 10.0 bulbs (PLUS 2.0's?) in a very shallow tank on a species that is not known to need much UV light, especially not very large amounts as that. May I ask how long you have been using the 2 10.0 bulbs with and withOUT the glass? I'm quite curious as to results of UV burns and the like... I ask this because in the chameleon community UVB bulbs are a required part of husbandry, and there have been known issues with UV burns and over-exposure to UVB. In comparison frogs are only arguably benefitted, but don't require, the UV so I'm very interested to see how yours have been reacting to such high doses. I am not familiar with the specifics of the glass you mentioned....can you tell me why it does not block UV like normal glass and how much lower this blockage rating is?

I know you said that they "seem" to come out more when only the UV lights are on, but have you actually tested this? I would suggest taking one of the 10.0 bulbs out completely and replace with a standard 6500K and see how they react...probably even change the other 10.0 to a 5.0 as well.

as to the other points mentioned....LUMINOSITY (how "much" light) has NOTHING to do with COLOR TEMPERATURE (what "kind" of light). You want 6500K daylight spectrum for ideal plant growth yes, but that doesn't tell you anything about how bright the bulbs are. For that, we generally look at the wattage of the bulbs.


There seems to be something more going on here....


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

TropicalDartFrogs said:


> Try using the 5.0 ? I've found these to be the perfect middle ground for me in my builds. However, the plants furthest down and away from the light have seemed to loose some color but other than that they are growing and healthy.


Plants develop their color by generating chlorophyll a and b through photosynthesis. These two processes use the red and blue parts of the visible light spectrum to occur, and are not very dependent upon the UVB parts of the spectrum.

If your plants lower down are not coloring up, it is because you are not generating enough visible light down there; not because of UVB issues.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

It's a possibility with the 4 lights on at one time that it is both too bright and too warm for the frogs. 

EvilLost, I've heard of that glass before. Like you I'm not personally familiar with it, but I've heard it is supposed to allow some transmission of UV rays.


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## Kaben (Dec 2, 2011)

EvilLost said:


> @parkanz: i have heard of some bulbs giving off UV, yes, however the values are too low to be effective in any manner. The amount of UV given off by the 5.0 and whatnot bulbs is already quite low (on order of 50MICROwatts/cm^2 that is 10^-6 power)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, From the manufacturers of the glass... 
Pilkingtons optiwhite 4mm glass allows 83% of uvb to pass through, whereas ordinary 4mm floatglass only allows 58% of uvb through.

I have tried only the tens and only the 2.0's and they come out more with the 10.0s but are still pretty scarce. I think they must take there chances with the lower brightness intensity.

I don't want to burn my frogs - what screw fit bulbs would you guys suggest using? Ideally still something that will be beneficial for my plants too.

Are there any brands I should be looking for?


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you for the info on the glass. Do you have any links to spec sheets or technical data by any chance? 

Your plants are not being benefited much by those UV bulbs if that is what you are thinking (as I said in an earlier post chlorophyll production primarily relies on the red and blue spectra)


For ideal plant growth, all you need are 6500K full spectrum "daylight" bulbs. You can find CFL's in this color pretty much anywhere, here is an example:






These should be fine for the frogs as well; try removing all the uvb lights and replacing them with plain 6500K bulbs (maybe keep one of the 2.0 uvb in there as there is recent info that shows it might be beneficial, but it isn't necessary)


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Maybe try replacing the 23 watt CFL's with the smaller 13 watt CFL's, that might make a difference.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> @parkanz: i have heard of some bulbs giving off UV, yes, however the values are too low to be effective in any manner. The amount of UV given off by the 5.0 and whatnot bulbs is already quite low (on order of 50MICROwatts/cm^2 that is 10^-6 power)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree EL, you are on target here.

Before you go popping in scads of Repti- Sun 10.0's bulbs or Arcadia 12%'s...

Let us familiarize ourselves with a little piece of equipment:
*
One word: Solarmeter*

Too much UV for species that hang in the shade could easily *sun-burn their eye-balls *and could do long term damage their skin and the frogs in general.

*Also ... can we take a moment and educate ourselves? 

For the good of the animals? 

*UV Guide UK - Ultraviolet Light for Reptiles - UVB reptile lighting on test






Plus... you wanna know the scarry thing?
Crappy LOW CRI Cool white 4.5 k flo. tubes CAN grow plants.
BUT... when you look at the light spectrum as a whole, they do not provide a natural light at all to show off frogs and / or plants.

Why have beautifully colored frogs & plants (worth 100.00's++ + of $$) only to cheap out and view them under dime store, low CRI poor spectrum bulbs? 

It does not make any sense.

Since all life evolved for millions of years under our Suns visible spectrum of light... (and you can not improve on Mother Nature- the real thing) ...isn't that the spectrum of light to try and duplicate for our vivs? 
At least to the extent to as much as it is parctical. 

Cheers!
Todd


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## Kaben (Dec 2, 2011)

Just an update - I replaced all of the previous bulbs with 5w 6500k bulbs. The tank is quite alot dimmer and im no longer stressing about frying my frogs with UV.

I haven't seen them out more though - they are still very secretive and also skittish.

They used to sit in the tank bold as anything and watch the world go by but now they run and hide as soon as i come in the room.

I have only had them since January so i hope they are just going through a phase and will revert to being bold again.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Kaben said:


> Ok, From the manufacturers of the glass...
> Pilkingtons optiwhite 4mm glass allows 83% of uvb to pass through, whereas ordinary 4mm floatglass only allows 58% of uvb through.


Also if anyone is interested PPG also makes a low iron glass like Pilkingtons optiwhite and is cheaper as well.

PPG Starphire is the name of it. I believe you can purchase it state side from glasscages.com.


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