# Starting to plan my build.



## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

Greetings everyone, 

I'm so glad I have found this forum to share my plans and hopefully gain knowledge from those who actually own Dart Frogs. I have always had a fascination with dart frogs since I was a young child. In fact, I can remember the first time I saw them at a local aquarium. Fast forward many years and I am now a Junior in college. I have been very big in keeping reef tanks and Crystal Shrimp breeding for some time but have recently decided to try something new. I was almost set on Pygmy Chameleons until I stumbled upon a Dart Frog video on Youtube. It was not until a few minutes later when I realized that the frogs are not poisonous in captivity and much of what I was planning to buy for Chameleons was the same that I decided Dart Frogs seem like the Animal I would like to keep and admire next!

My limiting factor is the size of my apartment. As a result I would really like to use a 8x8x12 Exo Terra enclosure with 2 frogs. However if really necessary I may be able to squeeze in an 18x18x18. I plan on using ABG and Hydroton for drainage. However, I have read that a drain is necessary? I am not comfortable drilling tanks as I have failed a few times in the past  So I am looking into new ideas for draining. 

In regards to misting I am unsure whether to try it by hand first or just take the automatic route and get a MistKing starter kit immediately. I was also wondering if anyone could guide me on whether I need a zipdrip or not? 

Perhaps the biggest area I need help in is plants. I really have no experience with any kind of living terrarium build. I have set up planted tanks but I'm sure aquatic plants are much different than terrariums. What kind of plants should I be looking at? 

Lastly, D azureus are the frogs that stick in my memory from my first encounter and I would love to get two of them. But I would also like to explore more options and perhaps find a species of frog that likes to climb more. Really I am just looking for a frog that is active.

I greatly appreciate any feedback or advice and thank you for this wonderful resource, 

Alex


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

Hi Alex! I'm a junior in college as well, welcome to the board! I'm a novice myself, but I can help you with that knowledge I know. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the 8x8x12 is 3.3 gallons. The typical rule is 5 gallons per frog. This of course, does not account for the substrate and drainage layers, plus the background if you make one. If you were to go with the larger tank, about 25 gallons, you should be able to fit 4 D. Azureus comfortably. 

A drain is not necessary. I have a 46 gallon that I just built, and I wasn't comfortable draining either, so I decided to make a small pond and siphon water out when it gets too high. Alternatively, what I should have done was to put a pvc pipe in there with notches at the bottom to allow me to put a siphon in there, and hide that by my great stuff background. I think you're getting an exo terra though, so that would be tough for a front-opening cage. 

If you're not comfortable drilling, you can't really go with a mist king. I bought a plant mister at Lowe's for 8 bucks and that's how I'm misting my tank. It'll only be for about, a minute a day, probably less. I have no idea what a zipdrip is, but I don't think it's necessary.

The frogs I'm getting are arboreal and bold, Southern Variabilis. They're small, though, the size of your thumbnail. You'll be able to house more comfortably, though, especially if you go the tiny setup.

I didn't have any clue about plants either. My advice is to go to our sponsor section and look through their plants. Usually in the descriptions, it'll say how large it gets, the lighting needs, etc. If you go with azureus, you won't need bromeliads. What I did was I went to NEHERP and bought a plant bundle, and specified the species I planned on keeping. From there, they selected plants for my species specifically.


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

Thanks for the reply, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote 8x8x12, I meant the 12x12x18 inch Exo Terra. I believe that is somewhere around 11 gallons. 

One of the main reasons I want to look into Automatic misting with a drain is that I occasionally travel for a weekend so I want to ensure the Humidity is good for those times. I was thinking about running some small airline tubing into the Hydroton and up behind the ExoTerra background. Then either connecting the hose every now and then and siphoning water out or even connecting it to an Aqualifter and pumping it out. I really have no clue about how much water I will need to be draining so I may just test it through trial and error. 

I also really appreciate the frog recommendation, where do you plan on buying yours?


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

12x12x18 should be good for two Azureus. As far as misting goes, many people only mist once or twice a week. If you focus on plants that don't need soggy substrate, you'll be even better off. It it's for a weekend, both your plants and frogs should be fine, unless your room tends to get hot or cold without you manually regulating it. Don't let me deter you from doing what you'd like, but the simpler you make your first build, the better off you may be. 

I've been keeping my eye on the frogs classifieds section of the board, and last night someone poped up with this ad, and I snatched them up. It's usually good to let your tank grow in for two months before getting the frogs, which is why he's holding them for me until July. The boards generally have good breeders, you just have to look at feedback and references, and don't mix lines or different localities if possible. Hybrids are a big no-no.


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

12x12x18 is a vertical enclosure. Thumbnails are just about all you could keep in a small terrarium like that. The 18x18x18 wold be better for terrestrial frogs. You don't have to spend on the exo terra. You can pick up a 20H aquarium and have a glass lid made. That would give frogs more ground space and be cheaper especially if yo wait for petco to have the dollar per gallon sale. As far as misting, I wouldn't be as concerned about being gone for a weekend. Mist before leaving and when you get back. The hundred bucks for a mist king for one terrarium hardly seems worth it.


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

I have had reservations as I figured glass tanks would be more work but I suppose it is worth looking into. The only thing I don't see much of are 20 gallon high stands. Any idea where the best place to find them would be? 

I am surprised about the mister. Finding out they require even less misting makes me want them more! Seems a little easier than having to constantly worry about it. Out of curiosity, how long can frogs go unattended?


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## DrawntoLife (Nov 12, 2009)

Some people mist twice daily up to 5 minutes at a time... It's all about what your system as a whole can handle from what I've seen, I drilled a hole for a bulkhead in mine anticipating heavy misting but I'm going with a clay substrate so ill be going light on the misting, and still the mistking is worth it to me. I'm getting the middle package that can handle 20 nozzles in case I increase my number of tanks in the future. If you're up for a challenge you could alway look at pumilio, also vents are really cheap and beautiful thumbs, a little less bold but they're awesome. Also abg is great for short term but do expect it to break down. If you're interested in a really long lasting substrate Doug has a very informative how to thread with very specific instruction, anyone can do it and its cheap just takes a bit of time and work. 

For the plants the sky is the limit, my favorite site for most of them is glassboxtropicals and logees.com has good begonias. Golden pathos is good for a beginner grower, it grows in many conditions. I think I have one growing in a sealed sandwich bag from the scads meet. They are also pretty but common. Oak leaf creeping fig is a cool vine


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

Thank you all again for the input. 

I have decided to hold off on the mister at first and see how I go without it. 

As far as types of frogs go, will thumbnails enable me to get a trio in the 12x12x18? I really do like the neatness of the Exo Terras. Also what would be the full or scientific name for Vents? Had a hard time finding them on sale sites. Trying to list all my costs prior to set up. I may also wait until a reptile show comes to my area. 

Edit- I googled thumbnails and it understand further now which species are which...I also found several I really like such as Ranitomeya lamasi


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

Well thanks to this lovely forum I also found out about V-Scape. 

I'm now pretty much set on either an 12x12x18 or a 24x12x18. 

I know that the 12x12x18 would limit my choices so I will likely go with the larger tank. Would I be able to fit a trio of Azureus is the 24x12x18? 

Does anyone have any Ideas on what lights to use on a 20H?


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

A trio would be ok in that size viv. Vents are ventrimaculatus but they're name has changed to Amazonicus. They're one in the same now

Here's some lighting help
http://www.neherpetoculture.com/vivariumlighting101

Azureus would do fine in the larger tank you mentioned


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

I actually found a local pet shop with a 20H below 30 bucks. I may have a go with that instead of spending on an exo. What kind of lid do you guys recommend? I know they make glass lids for fish but they have the plastic strip for filters which doesn't seem secure?

I've also done some reading and think a false floor would be better for me. I may have to move the tank around within a year or two due to being in college. A false floor should allow me to drain water and have less weight that water soaked hydroballs. 

I know water features take space but I am thinking about putting a small slope at one corner with some rocks just so I can see the water level and drain out of it. 

Any feedback?


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## redfrogger (Nov 6, 2010)

dormfrogger said:


> I actually found a local pet shop with a 20H below 30 bucks. I may have a go with that instead of spending on an exo. What kind of lid do you guys recommend? I know they make glass lids for fish but they have the plastic strip for filters which doesn't seem secure?


I would just get the dimensions of the size you want for a glass lid and go to a local glass shop. You could get 2 pieces of glass and silicone 1 to the top and attach a living hinge or acrylic hinge so it can swing open. I use a local glass shop to help make doors and fronts for a vertical conversion


Yes, I agree that with egg crate and false bottom is a better option than hydroball in my opinion.

I had a cool water fall feature in one of my earlier tanks. It seemed to me more of a hassle setting up and mantaining. I eventually took it out and have never added any more to all my other tanks. But some people, esp here on DB have amazing waterfall features.


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

I guess water feature wouldn't really be the correct term. I basically just want a tiny pond to drain water from. lol

So if I'm going to start making my list for a 20 gallon high build;

Tank:
20H
Glass (going to a local store for it to get cut, Lowes seems too thin)
Living Hinge Material (NEherp has it predone seems easier)
Egg Crate
Mesh
ABG mix 
Moss 
Some wood 
Pebbles for water area 

For the background:
Great Stuff (Window and Door)- 1 can?
GE1 Silicone Black and Brown
Something to cover the great stuff+adhesive 
Some cork flats 

What would be the best thing to attach to the foam and what adhesive? 

-Thanks


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

Got a bit bored today and mocked up my thoughts (badly ) on ms paint. The view is more of a section really as I plan to slope the layers to the front. But I was hoping to minimize lines of sight for the frogs. The pond will only be the front small corner still. The black circles are just me planning where to put plant pots. However, I'm unsure if I need them or placed them correctly? I just saw them on other builds.


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

What are you using the silicone for if not to put it on top of the great stuff to cover with coco fiber? Unless I misunderstood what you were saying. Also, is the mesh for a vent? If so, you'll need the window making materials for that as well.
Good luck finding GE I in black or brown! I went to my local home depot to grab some today and they don't carry it. 
The plant pots look line, in my opinion. Make sure you tilt them if you can so that they can drain into the straw, which will drain into the false bottom.


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

Well I was thinking I needed it to silicone the glass prior to the great stuff. I have since read more and it doesn't seem necessary 

The mesh is just for the false floor right now as I am undecided about vents :/

Luckily, NEherp sells the silicone for like 6 bucks so I'll just get it from there...Thanks for the straw tip. Honestly, I have no clue what to even put in them but everyone else seems to use them haha


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## FrogBoyMike (Aug 25, 2012)

Fantastica said:


> Good luck finding GE I in black or brown! I went to my local home depot to grab some today and they don't carry it.


Not sure about home depot but I know Lowes carries it.
Also on a side note I found a local pipe and supply store that carries black waterfall spay foam that I prefer big time over great stuff.(plus its fish safe so it may even be safer to use.
Just a thought that you might wanna look into.


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## loveleucs (Apr 26, 2013)

If you're new into Dart frogs, I wouldn't start with thumbnails, they are beautiful frogs but not recomended for beginners. Azureus are great, but they are more terrestrials than anything. Leucomelas should be a better choise, they are terrestrials but they like to climb too and are very bold frogs.

For your vivarium you should build a false bottom and put a small waterfall, these alone will keep the humidity of your tank high, and you won't have to mist that often. Look into threads on How to build a false bottom, it isn't hard a all.

Good luck!


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## dormfrogger (May 20, 2013)

Well I found a gift card I forgot I had, so I picked up the 20H while it was on sale. I also picked up some window and door great stuff since I was at walmart. I'm trying to buy things slowly as I won't start building until I'm in my apartment in August but I couldn't sit just planning anymore I had to make it more real. Luckily, I still have a lot of time to research before I start and I'm spending almost all day doing it lol.

If I spent my time minimizing lines of site would it be possible to put a group of 4 leucs in the 20H?


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