# Cultures not producing at all



## dubvstudent (Apr 4, 2011)

Just as the title says.

I only keep 2 frogs so in the past I have only kept 2-3 cultures going at a time. This had worked out great until recently but when the temps started dropping, so did the number of flies a single culture was producing. Then, I had a strange mold grow on the media of a culture that stopped it from reproducing almost all together. Two weeks ago I went online and had a producing culture shipped to me. I used it two start two new cultures a couple of days after I received it and though I don't see any mites in the new cultures, neither has a single larva on the side. The producing culture that was shipped to me stopped doing so after about a week (filled with mites).

Couple of Qs:

What is a good supplemental food that I can purchase in a pinch such as this? (and who can ship emPM me)

I'm assuming the culture sent to me was tainted with mites and so will be the two new ones I just started. Is it better to just throw them out now rather than let them proliferate in my apartment? Or should I hold out hope? (flies were suppose to start producing while in shipping so even the ones I started the new cultures with are still only a couple weeks old (meglos))


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## froggymike (Jan 11, 2010)

What type of frogs do you keep? Springtails, pinheads, isos can all be used. I suggest starting over with new cultures. See if anyone in the area has an extra culture to spare. Post in the wanted section for a mite free culture in your area. Try adding vinegar and water while making culture to keep the mold down or use methyl parabin (sp) fo the same purpose. What media brand are you using? I make my own, but lots of people use josh's media. Perhaps invest in mite paper to keep them out of you cultures. Hope this helps.


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## jharris08 (Dec 26, 2011)

yea the advice about starting over seems to be the best.
I use Joshsfrogs media and add a pinch of brewers yeast to add some anti-fungal properties to it, and like froggymike said, some anti mite paper is a good thing to have.
if you dont have springtails, and need some feeders, you can get 500 pinhead or 1/8 inch crickets shipped overnight from lllreptile.com 
good luck


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## dubvstudent (Apr 4, 2011)

I use Josh's media too and always keep my cultures on a paper towel coated in mite spray. He is a good vendor, and I have bought off him before, but for some reason the culture he sent me went to [email protected] right out of the box this time.

I was unaware that you needed to add yeast to Josh's frogs media, thanks for the tip. I don't have any mold yet in the new cultures but this cant hurt to do.

I wish I could find someone local to get a new start off of. Unfortunately there is just no one else within driving distance. I will have to order a new culture online.(last 1 was around $30 with rush shipment, what a PITA)

I ordered some pheonix worms on a wimb the other day and can drive to get some pinheads tonight (have to go about 2 hours round trip for the nearest petco). Will the frogs eat the pheonix worms though? Are they a good supplement?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/77230-pheonix-worms.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dubvstudent said:


> .
> 
> I was unaware that you needed to add yeast to Josh's frogs media, thanks for the tip. I don't have any mold yet in the new cultures but this cant hurt to do.


You actually don't have to add live yeast to a culture to get it going. The flies do carry yeast and other microbes from the old cuture to the new one. Adding it helps reduce other microbes from getting a hold of the culture and can help jump start egg laying. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dubvstudent said:


> I only keep 2 frogs so in the past I have only kept 2-3 cultures going at a time. This had worked out great until recently but when the temps started dropping, so did the number of flies a single culture was producing. Then, I had a strange mold grow on the media of a culture that stopped it from reproducing almost all together.


What is the temperature where the flies are? Insufficient activity of the flies can result in fungus (or even a yeast) overgrowth of the media.. Lower temperatures can reduce a number of things including rate of egg laying, growth of the larva which will result in reduced production. 



dubvstudent said:


> Two weeks ago I went online and had a producing culture shipped to me. I used it two start two new cultures a couple of days after I received it and though I don't see any mites in the new cultures, neither has a single larva on the side. The producing culture that was shipped to me stopped doing so after about a week (filled with mites).


Unless you are using aseptic culturing conditions all cultures have mites. The whole goal is to simply control them through good hygiene and culture practices. Based on the comments about temperature, I would suspect that the reason your first cultures stopped producing is the reason the new cultures did so as well. Mites don't shut down a culture that fast unless there is something seriously wrong... 



dubvstudent said:


> I'm assuming the culture sent to me was tainted with mites and so will be the two new ones I just started. Is it better to just throw them out now rather than let them proliferate in my apartment? Or should I hold out hope? (flies were suppose to start producing while in shipping so even the ones I started the new cultures with are still only a couple weeks old (meglos))


See my comments above on mites. 

There are a lot of different foods you can use and pinhead crickets are fine. If you have the larger frogs, ten day old crickets are a good choice as they aren't as fragile as pinheads. 

Ed


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## dubvstudent (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, sounds like the phoenix worms were a good way to waste $11.

My apartment stays around 63. I typically keep cultures in closet I have that is probably a bit cooler than that. I know them temp is not ideal, but jacking up my heat any more gets real pricey.

Of the two cultures I created, I placed one in the closet where I typically keep them (on a different shelf than I usually keep them and on a fresh mite-sprayed paper towel) and another (on a folded, sprayed towel) atop a fluorescent light fixture. I know from experience that these flies take about 2 weeks to really start producing but I'm hoping the extra heat would speed up production.


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## dubvstudent (Apr 4, 2011)

According to a petco employee all they have is "small crickets" which at around 3/4" are probably too large for my frogs at this point anyway. I left work too late to drive up tonight anyway. 

Its been 3 days straight now with nothing but some springtails added and whatever else was in the vivarium. It looks like at this point I'm going to have to pay out the yang for new cultures sent ASAP. Sucks that there are no other froggers to my knowledge in the immediate area.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

IMO, your frogs are probably fine for at least a week on only springtails, much longer on reduced rations. Lean times happen in nature, and quite often in captive collections as well (been there). The frogs will just become less active, and conserve energy instead of trying to breed. If cultures aren't producing well yet, you can always stick one in the viv., or just a spoonful of media with larvae and flies, the frogs will munch off of that, and it will continue to produce flies so they have a steady, if limited, food source. Any mites that where in the media will get picked off as well, in fact that may be a good way to get rid of your mite infested cultures while you start over. 

Another food source referred to as "field plankton" may be available in your area. I've read about it in old herp keeping books, but never tried it. Read up and know the pros and cons if you do.

My trick for keeping mite free cultures has been to start my new cultures and keep them in a totally separate room from old cultures for the first couple weeks. I haven't seen a mite in about a year, and I don't use mite spray or do anything else special except sterilizing all my culture making materials by way of microwaving or boiling.

If you post where your "immediate area" is, somebody may turn out to be close. Also let us know what kind of frogs you have, that may help in finding food sources.

Hope that helps.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dubvstudent said:


> My apartment stays around 63. I typically keep cultures in closet I have that is probably a bit cooler than that. I know them temp is not ideal, but jacking up my heat any more gets real pricey.


The temperature is the problem.... 63 F and the cultures really shut down, colder than that even by a few degrees really will kill cultures... that is going to slow down production of virtually all feeder insects or shut them down for those from tropical regions. 
Have you considered modifying a cupboard or other container to hold teh cultures and heat that instead? 
If you go that route I strongly suggest using something more effective than sprayed papertowels (like mite paper... it is amazingly cheap).. 


Ed


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

agreed Ed before i got heater my temps where 60-70 and my flys produced slow with heater im 73 constant and they produce really fast and double to tripplw the amount as before

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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

forgot to ad just get a 30-40$ space heater thats what i did. i electric bill hasent even been affected and mine runs all day all night it turns on and off. it has its own thermostat

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## dubvstudent (Apr 4, 2011)

Ed said:


> The temperature is the problem.... 63 F and the cultures really shut down, colder than that even by a few degrees really will kill cultures... that is going to slow down production of virtually all feeder insects or shut them down for those from tropical regions.
> Have you considered modifying a cupboard or other container to hold teh cultures and heat that instead?
> If you go that route I strongly suggest using something more effective than sprayed papertowels (like mite paper... it is amazingly cheap)..
> 
> ...


How would you heat a cupboard? How about a rubbermade container? Do you think a rubbermade sitting on something like this would work? Amazon.com: Indus-Tool FWXXX Cozy Electric Foot Warming Pad: Home & Kitchen

I have thought about trying this before but I feel it would be hard to regulate the heat. I mean, I imagine that fruitflies have limits beyond which it is just too hot for them. Or will the cultures just be faster and shorter lived?


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I keep my house on the cool side and keep my bugs in a closet as well. I have a cheap little space heater (something akin to this) set on 70 or 75 in the closet and keep the door closed. I also keep a towel under the door since I have wood floors to keep the heat in. Works like a champ and with the towel under the door the heater barely ever comes on.


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

dubvstudent said:


> According to a petco employee all they have is "small crickets" which at around 3/4" are probably too large for my frogs at this point anyway. I left work too late to drive up tonight anyway.
> 
> Its been 3 days straight now with nothing but some springtails added and whatever else was in the vivarium. It looks like at this point I'm going to have to pay out the yang for new cultures sent ASAP. Sucks that there are no other froggers to my knowledge in the immediate area.


Where are you located? Have you put a wanted ad out for flies? Try a different vendor maybe closer to you that might help with shipping cost. Order Turkish gliders or melo's they produce fast.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dubvstudent said:


> How would you heat a cupboard? How about a rubbermade container? Do you think a rubbermade sitting on something like this would work? Amazon.com: Indus-Tool FWXXX Cozy Electric Foot Warming Pad: Home & Kitchen
> 
> I have thought about trying this before but I feel it would be hard to regulate the heat. I mean, I imagine that fruitflies have limits beyond which it is just too hot for them. Or will the cultures just be faster and shorter lived?


I have concerns about the risk of using heating things for things they weren't designed to do as that can cause a fire risk. If you are going to go that route then use an under the tank heater for reptiles. You can even invest in a controller with a probe to exactly control the temperatures. 

Some of the issues with putting them into a rubbermaid or other container is that you end up either stacking cultures or having them touching, that is a route to increase mite numbers since they can migrate from culture to culture. 

As for whether the cultures will be short lived or not, you should not be keeping cultures more than 30 days unless you can keep them far from the newer cultures and are using mite paper. Keeping them more than 30 days is a good recipe for a mite explosion. 

Ed


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## dubvstudent (Apr 4, 2011)

Noticed some larva today in the culture that is atop my florescent fixture. It isn't the most aesthetic place to grow out flies but if it keeps them alive and producing during the winter, than it will have to do.

I will just have to be more careful in the future I guess. Usually I throw out cultures after 4-5 weeks. I guess I was tempted to hold on to some due to the low production/immediate need. Must have kept them around to long, leading to the mite-scapades.


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## dtown (Jan 5, 2011)

What about spring tail culture temps? I have my culture sitting around 70* Should I raise the temps? Just for measure, I have had a spring tail culture going for a week or so and haven't seen much in the way of reproduction... Is this because of the low temps possibly? I have done all the necassary steps to provide the springs with a great platform to jump off of!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dtown said:


> What about spring tail culture temps? I have my culture sitting around 70* Should I raise the temps? Just for measure, I have had a spring tail culture going for a week or so and haven't seen much in the way of reproduction... Is this because of the low temps possibly? I have done all the necassary steps to provide the springs with a great platform to jump off of!


 
What kind of springtails do you have? If you have the white Folsomia, they show good production all the way down into the 50s F. I would not suggest putting any of the springtails ontop of the lights since the cultures are fairly well sealed, it would probably cook them. 

Ed


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## dtown (Jan 5, 2011)

I have Colombella springs.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dtown said:


> I have Colombella springs.....


 
All springtails are Collembola. This doesn't narrow down the options. 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

On the subject of FF culturing--I am really discouraged at this point. I''ve had to have several cultures shipped to me because the ones I've started have done nothing...nothing except either dead flies, or larva (larvae?) that are plentiful, but do not go on to produce flies. I've tried both Melos and Hydei--and started cultures back on 2/25, 3/4, 3/15, and within the past couple of days. When I ordered two new producing cultures from Joshs', I was told that perhaps they were too cold...so I put them in a large clear Rubbermaid container like what I use for my crickets. The container was then put on top of one of those seedmats for starting seeds...I did not have a thermometer in with the containers. Today, when I would've expected some production...I saw all sorts of white larva that was not moving...and in one cultures no flies! Tore the cultures apart...one was moist on the top with condensation, and cracked media at the bottom. The other two had plenty of non-moving, white larva...So am puzzled as to what to do now....This should not be rocket science...but it IS for me!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you saw cracked media and condensation then that is an indication that there was too much heat in the bottom which dried out the cultures. This can cause condensation to form higher up in the culture due to the temperature gradient. 

So with the cultures what kind of top are you using on the containers? 
With the cultures are you only using the first emergers to set up the next culture? 

Some comments,

Ed


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Judy S said:


> This should not be rocket science...but it IS for me!


Hi Judy,

It's not rocket science. It just takes a little practice. 

Heat and humidity are very important factors when culturing flies. I aim for 72-74F and 50-55% in the room that they are kept in. They hatch out in 13-14 days every time! A small container might be a bit more challenging to control, but I'm sure it can be done. If you can get your temps and RH in that range that will help you a lot. 

Cheers


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

thank you for the replies. I am using the regular 32 oz. cups with the tops that you get at the same time. I used the excelsior with it...and when I tried to "culture on", I did not use the first emerging FFs because of having read that they are generally females. The original cultures that I made with Black Jungle media seemed to develop some mold, so I have been trying another media mix that includes the paraben.. oatmeal,powdered sugar spirulina and brewers yeast, with a pinch of bakers yeast on top. I now have the various stages of cultures, Hydei and Melos in their seperate containers, in a large Rubbermaid tub w/top with mite paper inside, and on a heat mat slightly elevated off direct contact between the mat and the bottom of the tub...and a thermometer in the tub... The ones that failed...starting back to 2/25 had various problems...drying out was the most obvious issue with the one culture. Is there a video, or something like it that actually shows or describes the various stages to be aware of??? I may not be the only one to appreciate a more visual guide...instead of my Stevie Wonder approach....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Judy,

I'm not sure what you mean by various stages.. One of the things I'm wondering is air exchange in the tub. When you seal the tub, it is true that it does increase the temperature but it also prevents air passage into and out of the tub which can result in excess CO2 buildup among other things. How often are you opening the tub? 

I keep my flies on the top shelf in my frog room where the temperatures can vary from a high of around 85 F to a low of around 65 (depending on season, and time of day (lights off in the middle of the night for example) and I get consistent good production from my cultures. 

Crashing of a culture that has a lot of flies and/or larva in it can be due to using flies from the first emergence repeatedly as this directly selects for flies that are inefficient in metabolizing the media and are intolerant of ammonia and other waste products in the media or it can be due to some other factor such as getting too hot (the culture itself will be slightly above ambient since the metabolic activity of the maggots and microbes makes the cultures warmer) or possibly due to CO2 toxicity. 

If you still have some of the black jungle media left, mix up a batch put into the culture cups and then microwave it until hot, cover and allow to cool. See if that fixes the mold issue and then seed the cultures as normal. If you have a higher shelf in a warm room try putting a couple of cultures up there to see how they do. 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I leave the Rubbermaid top slightly ajar to prevent the heat buildup...guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens with the ones I started around the 22nd..at least I have some melos to feed out...the Hydei culture from Josh's still hasn't started to produce, so there is nothing to start from these cultures from Josh's yet...it is a pain in the toosh at this point...but the Irish in me will succeed yet. The trouble with Josh's cultures is that there are no dates as when he started them...I did get smart about that one small element. Do the "adult" flies die after the larvae are produced, larvae cases turn brown on the sides of the culture cup...then a few days before any live flies are seen--so any live ones are the new ones???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The adult flies may die once there are maggots and this could simply be due to the age of the flies used to start the cultures or to genetic tolerance to the conditions in the cultures, or potentially some other reason..(could be simple, or could be esoteric like Wolbachia infections). The pupal cases will normally turn brown before the new adult flies emerge. 

Ed


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