# Mysterious Azureus death.



## discipleak (Nov 30, 2008)

Hello, Currently Im keeping two tanks. One with Auratus (my first darts). Ive had them 5-6 months and they are all fine. In March I picked up some Azureus at a reptile show. I bought 5 of them and have them set up in a 72 gallon bowfront. I go through all my steps, dust their fruit flies every 2-3 days, they have plenty of humidity with a water feature and glass top on the aquarium. Somewhere along the line in the first month I believe one died, I assume so simply because I havent seen all 5 for a few months. Then suddenly this morning I found one dead at the edge of the water feature. The water is maybe an inch deep, with riccia in it. So I dont think it is drowning. Should I try and have an autopsy or something of the sort done? Or should I not stress it due to the fact that these are growing froglets? Thanks for reading my ramblings, I look forward to some responses.


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

Azureus do best alone or in pairs. Since you had five of them it could have gotten bullied by the other ones, . Azureus of same sexes will fight and can kill each other. This may not have been the case for they are just froglets, but nobody knows for sure, it may have possibly been chytrid or something of other sorts. I would reccomend you do a quick research on health problems with azureus and keep a close eye in case if any of your other frogs get strange symptoms.


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## discipleak (Nov 30, 2008)

Thanks for the quick response. I havent observed any bullying, and they are young frogs. So best course of action is just waiting and watching I guess.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

How old are the Azureus?


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

Do you feed them every day? If so, how much? There could be pretty intense competition for food that could cause smaller frogs to starve.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

I think it may be pretty expensive to get a necropsy done on the frog. Additionally it may be hard to even find someone in your area that does them. One thing to consider would be to get a fecal sample tested. Rule of thumb is if one frog has something they all do, so it may be worth considering to help ensure the health of the remaining frogs, and could also possibly give you clues why this one died.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kingnicky101 said:


> Azureus do best alone or in pairs. Since you had five of them it could have gotten bullied by the other ones, . Azureus of same sexes will fight and can kill each other. This may not have been the case for they are just froglets, but nobody knows for sure, it may have possibly been chytrid or something of other sorts. I would reccomend you do a quick research on health problems with azureus and keep a close eye in case if any of your other frogs get strange symptoms.


I think a check of the fecals of the other frogs in the enclosure is a prudent place to start. Unless there was some reason for the frogs to heavily compete for a limited resource (unlikely given that it sounds like they are subadults).. 

If you have a local vet who is willing to send the frog out for you, the necropsy can be performed by Northwest ZooPath (they do a lot of work for Zoos and I know one of the pathologists). The cost is going to be dependent on how much histopathology you have done on the frog and how much your vet charges you to ship the frog out. 


Just a side comment here on the housing recommendation... the recommendation for housing in pairs regardless of size/set-up of the enclosure is approaching dogma..... 

Ed


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## discipleak (Nov 30, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for the responses. The frogs are subadults. I feed every day with plenty of flies, I would be suprised if it was starvation. Supposing it was Chytrid, wouldnt the frogs all die pretty quickly? I think I will send out a fecal sample from one of the frogs. Hopefully I can find a local vet who will do one.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

discipleak said:


> Thanks to everyone for the responses. The frogs are subadults. I feed every day with plenty of flies, I would be suprised if it was starvation. Supposing it was Chytrid, wouldnt the frogs all die pretty quickly? I think I will send out a fecal sample from one of the frogs. Hopefully I can find a local vet who will do one.


Pisces Labs can tell you what you should get to test for chytrid--you would need to swab the frog and send it in to them. Perserving the culture involves special capped test tubes and alcohol such as Everclear to preserve the fungus---other methods may destroy it. Speak to John about the best way to preserve the swab. The other frogs may not die soon even if it is chytrid---individual immune response may vary frog to frog even if the chytrid might eventually overtake them.

Dr. Frye in Michigan can help w/fecal count testing---save two/three fecals per frog in each enclosure. If there is more than one enclosure, save these fecals separately from the first group. Use non-bleached paper towels (these are brown) in the air-tight container when shipping, and spray lightly with distilled tap water to moisten. Send an email to [email protected] about sending fecals to him. Next Day Air via USPS is usually the best way to go.


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## discipleak (Nov 30, 2008)

Prior to your response I contacted Pisces about chytrid tests. The email offered packs of 50 test kits for sale. Is there an outlet for a smaller number of kits that anyone is aware of? Or is there a place that I could pick up the proper alcohol and test tubes, such as a vets office or a similar facility? This little frogs death has got me pretty stressed out and I cant wait for some answers. Unfortunately its Sunday and not much can be done until tomorrow. Thanks again to everyone for your responses.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

discipleak said:


> Prior to your response I contacted Pisces about chytrid tests. The email offered packs of 50 test kits for sale. Is there an outlet for a smaller number of kits that anyone is aware of? Or is there a place that I could pick up the proper alcohol and test tubes, such as a vets office or a similar facility? This little frogs death has got me pretty stressed out and I cant wait for some answers. Unfortunately its Sunday and not much can be done until tomorrow. Thanks again to everyone for your responses.


John can tell you how to use Everclear---yes, the kind you get from the liquor store---to preserve the frogs. Also, you may be able to buy individual centrifuge-type test tubes from your local vet for a nominal cost---sorry I didn't mention this earlier. Be sure you check w/John as to which kind---I think they should not have a rubber stopper, but a silicone one...

How are your frogs doing currently?


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## discipleak (Nov 30, 2008)

They seem to be just fine. I have not observed any aggression amongst each other. I observed them all feeding this morning and they all seem to be fat and happy. First thing tomorrow I am going to call around to vet offices and see if I can get ahold of the necessary supplies and hopefully someone local who can do a fecal test. Thanks again for the responses.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

discipleak said:


> They seem to be just fine. I have not observed any aggression amongst each other. I observed them all feeding this morning and they all seem to be fat and happy. First thing tomorrow I am going to call around to vet offices and see if I can get ahold of the necessary supplies and hopefully someone local who can do a fecal test. Thanks again for the responses.


Sure thing---let us know how it turns out.


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## discipleak (Nov 30, 2008)

Months later Ive gotten ahold of a test kit for chytrid. I havent had any more problems with the frogs, so Im inclined to not waste my money. Thought Id follow up and let the few of you who had been helpful and informative. Thanks again.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Knowing if you have chytrid in your collection is not a waste of money... if you have it and you could lose a lot of animals in a very rapid period of time... if the frogs are already infected death can occur within several days post demonstration of symptoms... all it takes is a couple of cool days. 

Ed


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## discipleak (Nov 30, 2008)

Im not too keen on swabbing one of my seemingly healthy frogs. Im kind of afraid to hurt them. Seems like a stressful process. Correct me if Im wrong.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

discipleak said:


> Im not too keen on swabbing one of my seemingly healthy frogs. Im kind of afraid to hurt them. Seems like a stressful process. Correct me if Im wrong.


If you ever intend on selling any offspring, as the right thing to do you need to test for chytrid, especially when you have any unexplained deaths within your collection. Heck one should do this in general, selling or not.

I debated with this same issue months ago when I had a frog oddly die. I debated for a short bit and then sent it for a necropsy and it is a good thing I did because it turned out to be chytrid positive. 

Months later the situation is now under control.

Swabbing is not harsh.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

discipleak said:


> Im not too keen on swabbing one of my seemingly healthy frogs. Im kind of afraid to hurt them. Seems like a stressful process. Correct me if Im wrong.


Its no where near as stressful as having to catch the up and treat them daily if you start to lose them due to it.. 
A quick catch up, swab across the feet and drinking patch and back into the cage. 
The frogs are not that fragile. 

Ed


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## discipleak (Nov 30, 2008)

Update: Just got word back from Pisces, the frogs do not have chytrid. They are doing well and look fat and healthy. Thanks everyone for the advice and support.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

discipleak said:


> Update: Just got word back from Pisces, the frogs do not have chytrid. They are doing well and look fat and healthy. Thanks everyone for the advice and support.


Congratz on the good news!


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