# I feel so bad for these guys



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Heres a shot of some azureus at a pet store around me. I really feel so bad for these guys as they are not getting the care they need. They are so emaciated its rediculous. I almost want to buy them and give them a better home but i dont want to support a pet store that treats animals like this.

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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Wow that's horrible. I feel you wanting to buy them for a good home, but I'm glad you decided not to. They are probably already gone to be honest.. Who knows if they have parasites, and how they are cared for... I do feel bad for them, but there really isn't much we can do about it.


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## Absolutbill (Aug 23, 2011)

Tell me about it, I find it very hard for my wife and me to go into any pet stores any more. She keeps chams, beardies, and Leo geckos and most conditions are horrid. And the more I learn about PDFs the more disturbed I am.

We try to buy only from breeders at shows or online,even for basic supplies


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Thats bullshit! I bet the idiots feed big crickets at the most next to nothing. I wouldnt buy either and support their shit care, but I do like to educate sone pet shops and bring in a few cultures and containers with supplements and simply show them how to properly feed. There defenitely wouldnt be anything wrong with that as youd be doing those guys a kind service but most importantly, these beautilful friends, and who knows.....maybe hundreds to follow. In that condition, Id tell them to lay a few pieces of bananas around setup and drop ff's and eventually some larvae will make it and at least fatten them up and make a kid happy who buys them. And it sure S heck would give these petstore some credibility. My 2 cents


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

You might want to take a photo of a well-fed azureus so that they know what the frog is SUPPOSED to look like.

I'd give it a couple more weeks in that condition ~


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

guppygal said:


> You might want to take a photo of a well-fed azureus so that they know what the frog is SUPPOSED to look like.
> 
> I'd give it a couple more weeks in that condition ~


Good suggestion. Slightly less subtle then walking up and saying “You guys are morons and deserve to be horsewhipped!” Also, it places the ball back in their court by putting the onus of responsibility back on them. Who knows, it might even open the door for you to explain how to actually keep them properly, thus helping the frogs and the store owners.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

They may be wc and have a bug or two in them and sugns might showing and for all we know these guys are properly feeding. You gotta ask quetions.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

From now on we should start posting the phone numbers of these pet stores so we can call bomb them.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

That stinks. If I saw that, I might consider making an offer to come in every couple of days and try to nurse them back to health in exchange for half of what they sell for. 

Even though it seems that they are being callous, no pet store owner wants to lose stock or they could not stay in business. It's usually ignorance. If it's a mom and pop pet shop, they might take you up on the offer. Then, you could teach them basic care techniques and if they decided to continue offering dart frogs, you could make a few bucks selling ff cultures on consignment or something.


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## Logqan (Sep 24, 2008)

That is sad. I have seen some horrible pet stores in my time but there are a few good ones out there. If anyone live near St. Louis this may help you. Check out The Tye Dyed Iguana that pet store takes awesome care of their stuff. There is another store near that area that I went to and they had many dead animals on display so obviously they don't check often...no joke. Anyway sorry you had to see those poor frogs. I Know seeing frogs in poor condition always pulls on my heartstrings. 
Logan


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Ummm, WC Azureus? Not gonna happen. And sure as Hell isnt gonna happen with babies like the one in the picture.

I agree educating them is probably the best option.

A well known pet store in my area used to have no idea what they were doing with PDFs at one point. Despite a well known local breeder telling them they were keeping them wrong, it wasnt until the manager of the reptile area was removed and some of our fellow DB members pushed for change. Originally the frogs had been kept in quite dry conditions with Reptile bark, screen lid, small maybe half inch deep water dish, a small cork curl to for them to hide in, and worst of all, HEAT LAMPS! The info they were giving the customers was crap in the beginning, I for one lost a few frogs from them (Before I knew about this site) because they told me to keep them just like the Anoles and geckos that I had. Which was at 90+ degrees!

The new system is amazing over there because the new staff is much better educated and not just dedicated to the quest for money.


I believe the best thing you could do for the frogs is to educate this pet shop. IF they refuse to take your advice I would call the authorities and get charges against them for animal cruelty.


Todd


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Just my two cents but I have sold reptiles and amphibians to pet stores for years... I believe its our obligation to "train" staff and owners on the care of the animals we sell them.

It works out much better for everyone. The shops make mire money by creating good customer relationships, selling complete and proper housing, and have far less dead loss. 

Another shame is that by the time shops get a lot of their animals they have already touched so many hands that the animals are stressed out and full of parasites that they never really have a chance.

Which brings me back to us, the hobbyists. You may not get top dollar for your animals but selling to pet shops is a great idea and mutually beneficial to all involved. Including the animals. Provided the shop owners are willing to provide proper care. I for one would rather my animals go to someone local rather than shipping them around the country. 

Make the owner listen to you and I'm sure he will... He didn't spend the money on them to intentionally kill them.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Not to suggest that most pet shop owners or employees don't care about the health of the animals, but the bottom line is the bottom line, even for the Petcos of the world. I agree that the pet shop owner didn't buy them to let them die. It's a business and even if they aren't animal lovers, they most definitely need to make a profit.

I would give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they simply don't know how to care for dart frogs, point out how much money they are potentially losing, and then offer to help. Then, if you breed frogs yourself, you might be able to become the local supplier and become a partner with the pet shop in providing healthy, quality frogs and educating their customers on the proper housing and care of dart frogs.

If every retail pet shop had one or two hobbyists supporting them in this way, it would also reduce the number of newbies coming on DB and bragging about their new vivarium with three different color frogs. In other words, more new folks would be educated on how to care for their new pet.

I'd also like to see basic care sheets given to each vendor at shows to hand out when someone buys dart frogs. This could provide links to DB and other dart frog online resources and focus on critical issues related to care, feeding, and the issues somewhat unique to dart frogs such as the existence of many distinct populations/morphs, problems with mixing, the relatively low density of frogs per unit space, and the difference between strongly territorial species and those that do well in groups.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree and would echo others comments that offering to properly educate this shop on their care is the best course of action. Maybe a very basic book on PDF husbandry could be donated by a local froger. Jason Juchems book comes to mind. Perhaps just printing out a couple very basic care sheets and delivering them would suffice.

If however, you do not get a positve reaction and the shop refuses to take the proper steps to work to better the health of these frogs, then it is time for the authorities to take action. Call the local chapter of the ASPCA and explain what is going on. This is animal cruelty, no matter how you look at it. Its either ignorance, indifference, or downright willful disregaurd but something needs to be done.

I did want to touch on one point that I've seen mentioned in this thread, and that is the idea that shop owners are concerned about the death of animals. I've worked in enough pet stores to have learned one thing about livestock. While most owners are concerned about losses and are compassionate however, livestock losses can be considered loss and subject to tax deduction. At all but 1 store/company I worked at, we carefully tracked losses daily. At the end of the day, most owners are not going to be concerned about loss of animals from a loss of profit standpoint because they just write off the losses at the end of the day. I'm sure there are even some stores that write off the sale price and not the price they paid. Most stores don't make much profit on livestock anyway. Livestock is a loss leader. You have to feed it, maintain it, care for it. Stores make money on dry goods. You just have to sell livestock to justify the sale of other goods. This is of course and incredably calous and thoughtless way to approach things, but it makes sense from a business standpoint. It is the unfortunate reality and one of the main reasons I got out of retail, that and knowing that despite my best efforts to educate patrons in the proper care of various animals, they were often incompetant, unable, or unwilling to properly care for the pets I sold them.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Oh, that is just sick. Maybe it's the general petshop's way of doing business, I don't know. I do know that there is a local mom&pop reptile shop close by that helped me out with my hubby's bday present. They told use that they'd be happy to host a tank and help educate folks about frogs.

The popularity seems to be growing and it's so sad to see a pdf in such pitiful conditions. Another pet store had a couple of 'sexed' cobalts. I checked it out and they really didn't know what they had. They labeled the tank 'Dendrobates Tinctorius'. When I saw them, it was obvious that they had two females and one was way more dominant than the other. Two weeks ago, I checked them out again, and saw the lesser female dead in the tank. It was one month from the first day I saw them. They still have the larger one and insists that 'he' calls every night. Right. These are puppy-mill people, and there would be no way I would waste my time trying to show them the right way to display pdfs.

It's a tough one - IMO, darts should be kept to the internet where hobbyists will do the research. It seems that the reptile importers are bringing them in - can this be true?

Egads, what is this world coming to....?


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

yea i talked to the guy for alittle while about the health and stuff of them he was saying that thay are alittle small becuase they are froglets and he needs to fatten them up. me not being all that knowlegable on pdf's decided not even to say anything because to be honest, i think he knew better. it wasnt even just a pet shop with different pets, it was a reptile store so they had to have alot more knowledge then your average petco. they sell fruit fly cultures at the store so i dont know why feeding would be a problem. i am thinking that they probably have parasites or some sort of illness. it really sucks seein that and not being able to do anything about it though.


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## brian (Jul 9, 2009)

> i am thinking that they probably have parasites or some sort of illness.


If so, IMO animals with some kind of illness shouldn´t be exposed to public until they have been recoved.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

What pet store is it? Is it in NYC?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

shibbyplustax said:


> They are so emaciated its rediculous. I almost want to buy them and give them a better home but i dont want to support a pet store that treats animals like this.


I've seen similar looking frogs at various frog shows.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Now that's just idiotic. If they know enough to be a vendor at a frog show, then they are simply greedy.

I'd be tempted to stand in front of their booth with a sign saying "THESE FROGS WILL DIE IN A WEEK".


skylsdale said:


> I've seen similar looking frogs at various frog shows.


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

JeremyHuff said:


> What pet store is it? Is it in NYC?


its on long island, its called jungle world.


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