# Phoenix Worms



## jrodkinsey (May 27, 2013)

I have two Phyllobates Terribilis 'mint' and a Dendrobates tinctorius 'Green Sipaliwini' (yes the Dendrobates and Phyllobates are in separate tanks) That are all roughly around 20 weeks OOW. They are fed fruit flies Monday-Friday that are dusted with Repashy calcium plus. The weekends I let them forage around for food. I would like to substitute other foods into their diet maybe once a week and phoenix worms seem to be a great choice. My question is how big would a dart have to be before you would recommend them to be able to safely eat extra small phoenix worms?


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

My Leucs and larger frogs have eaten extra small Phoenix Worms. My Terribs have eaten medium sized ones. 

They are also known as Calci-Worms, _hermetia illimens_, and Black Soldier Fly Larvae/Grubs (BSFL). They are not easy to come by in quantity at the smaller size at a decent price. You can find them on eBay, but the search is tedious.


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## jrodkinsey (May 27, 2013)

Thanks for the help. Lucky for me I live within driving distance to this place The Phoenix Worm Store Home Page


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I don't like them.The few times I tried they disappeared so I thought the frogs ate them,but a few weeks or so later I had these nasty looking flies that looked evil and I was concerned they would try and carry the frogs away.In my opinion they aren't worth the effort or money.Beanbeetles are easy to culture and My adult mints eat them still.Also try larger Isos.


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

Hi Lou...

Just like your Bean Beetles, the adult Black Soldier Flies have no mouth parts and, just like them, live only to reproduce. (What a life!) They may look insidious, but are harmless to your frogs and will die in a week or two. One might consider their larvae preferable to Bean Beetles in that they are higher in calcium content.

A few months ago I found a source on eBay that was selling 2500 small BSFL for $20 shipped. (I bought 2000 medium sized BSFL from them and had to give most of them away.) I almost bought a small wine cooler to keep them at the proper temperature, but the BSFL seller disappeared - maybe it is a seasonal thing. At 2500 for $20 shipped, I think that they're worth the money and can't be beat as feeders. At $12 shipped for 300, I'd go with the Bean Beetles...

Regards,
Bob


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I tried them a few times and my frogs didn`t touch them, although I never tried them on my Terribilis, they`ll eat anything they can fit in their mouths.
My Leucs and Azuerus just sat and stared at them, and then like Lou said the uneaten ones turned into these huge mutant flies.

John


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I know they don't have mouths but even my terribs didn't eat them,they ate a few and spit the rest out which turned into super ugly,nasty looking flies.Either way I don't like the way they look and don't want them flying around the tank for even a day

Bean beetles are cheap and super easy to start and you can make replenishable cultures for pennies.The larger Isos would be good for some calcium too.

Just my opinion


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## Destroyer551 (Sep 7, 2013)

You live in Georgia, if you really want to get into them and become a little more environmentally friendly just start up a composting system centered around black soldier flies. All you need is a bucket and some kitchen scraps. The flies are native in southerly states and are easily cultured in large numbers. I use a biopod which is a commercially made product specifically for BSF; expensive but more effective than a DIY. The prices for phoenix/calci-worms are ridiculous, a 5 gallon bucket will produce well over 50,000 worms in a couple months.


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## jrodkinsey (May 27, 2013)

Thank you everyone for all the help and suggestions on other food items to feed. Do you guys have specific days you switch up the food (once a week, three times a week, every other week, etc.?). My life revolves around a schedule so I like the idea of having specific days that I feed something different. Would froglets that are 20 weeks OOW be able to eat extra small phoenix worms or are the extra small still too large for them? 

Destroyer551- Yes I do live in Georgia. I am somewhat familiar with the compost system you are talking about. The only thing is I don't like the idea of getting the food from outside where it has the possibility of bringing something harmful inside my tank. Is this a possibility?


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## Destroyer551 (Sep 7, 2013)

jrodkinsey said:


> Thank you everyone for all the help and suggestions on other food items to feed. Do you guys have specific days you switch up the food (once a week, three times a week, every other week, etc.?). My life revolves around a schedule so I like the idea of having specific days that I feed something different. Would froglets that are 20 weeks OOW be able to eat extra small phoenix worms or are the extra small still too large for them?
> 
> Destroyer551- Yes I do live in Georgia. I am somewhat familiar with the compost system you are talking about. The only thing is I don't like the idea of getting the food from outside where it has the possibility of bringing something harmful inside my tank. Is this a possibility?


I suppose it's a possibility. I know dart frog enthusiasts are a lot more paranoid about outside items then others. My leopard geckos and chameleons all love the larvae though and I have no worry about feeding them the worms. The biopod is a relatively enclosed system and mine sits right inside my unscreened porch, next to the door. Once soldier flies colonize the compost, nothing else seems bother it.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You really don't want to use these.

There are stories of these not being digested immediately - and the larvae making it's way out of a frog stomach - straight through skin.

No, I don't have the link. But it was on this site, and it was 7 or 8 years ago.

I'd stay away from these.

s


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## jrodkinsey (May 27, 2013)

Thanks for the info, Scott! After every ones feedback I think I will scratch these off the list.

Do any of you have experience with rice flour beetles?


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I have some that have turned into long term pets  They are prolific,but a pain in the a$$ to separate.Lesser wax worms (a bit smaller than full size) are a good size and my frogs tear them up.


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