# Leuc identification



## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Hey all! I recently rescued some darts from a sketchy hoarder situation and I can't seem to find a morph that looks like one lil dude. Its definitely a Leucomela but its VERY orange and has 3 blobby "stripes" running up its back and not crosswise like I've seen on most Leucs. I'm new here and unsure how to post a picture or I would include one.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

You can upload a pic to an image sharing site and then link here.

Morphs cannot be conclusively identified visually. There's really no reason to try, either, since a frog without reliable morph info shouldn't be bred, and there isn't any other reason to know. 

Without reliable information from the breeder, a frog could be a morph cross, or a species cross, and that might not be knowable simply by looking at it.

BTW, the species is _Dendrobates leucomelas_ (always with an 's').


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Sorry!! I didn't mean to offend anyone with my question. I was only trying to figure out why it looked different than any other example I've been able to find online. Because I don't know anything about this animals past care I was concerned the orange was a bad sign... I will be sure to watch my spelling in the future


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Stephenia said:


> Sorry!! I didn't mean to offend anyone with my question. I was only trying to figure out why it looked different than any other example I've been able to find online. Because I don't know anything about this animals past care I was concerned the orange was a bad sign... I will be sure to watch my spelling in the future


I can't imagine that @Socratic Monologue was offended .

Pictures would help for us to provide advice on care and setup.


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Hopefully this is how I post a picture. I'm very new here because I don't trust FB groups to give actual answers. I've bought all my other frogs from reputable and ethical breeders. I don't plan on breeding ANYONE!! This was a case of I went to buy a used tank and saw these 2 darts trying to hide underneath 6 or more crested geckos in a 12x12x12. No leaves, no humidity, 2 different morphs, but one is obviously a blue & black auratus of some sort. I just want to be sure it's ok
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LgKTpxiyN2G80M8a7dQFrrGOUDyHXMtt/view?usp=drivesdk


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Nope, not offended; I don't know why I would be. 

I didn't realize there was a health concern; I assumed that -- as most 'what morph' questions -- you wanted a morph ID. 

Judging from the pic, the frog doesn't look unhealthy to me.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

It's a _Dendrobates leucomelas _  looks pretty healthy from what I can see in the picture


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Stephenia said:


> I'm very new here because I don't trust FB groups to give actual answers.


A bit late, but:

Welcome to DB! We're happy you are here. Once you get settled, we'd enjoy hearing about/seeing your other frogs, too.


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Thank you both!!! I'm a nervous momma and was too busy freaking out to be clear and concise about my concerns. I'm happy to do my own research if I know what I'm looking at lol I know the orange doesn't show up well in the photo but I wasn't sure if that was normal for them, or if it really even was a leucomelas! Its honestly so strange from any other picture I've seen I was concerned it might be a mineral deficiency or something to be worried about! I know they don't require the UV as the geckos do so I wasn't sure if it could be "sunburned".


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

It looks healthy to me, at least to the best I can see in the picture. 

If you could also share offers of the enclosure we can offer setup advice


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Honestly I'd be ashamed to show you the solid, but filthy exo terra I bought off this kid. Tried sprucing it up for now with a water dish, coco hide, extra plants and leaves from my El Cope build. CUC seems active, so that is a small blessing. Temporary improvement on it's old situation was better than leaving it there to dry out or get trampled. I'm on disability so building this will be a slow rehab project on a budget, hence buying a used tank. My daughter (an adult) is taking the blue and black that I separated into my quarantine tank, so we are repurposing her 30 gal aquarium starting tomorrow. It's so deep blue in spots it looks purple so she's in heaven lol


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

Just to get back the original question: it's the Guyanan morph, or of it. The bandeds have, among other patterns, that single ******** decoration (or Orange: "O", if you prefer). While the body is not characteristic of a banded, it is not impossibly so, and could be a pure-blood with a weird pattern. I wouldn't count on it being pure. However: Standard leuc heads will have multiple black spots in the head patch. They will not create a doughnut. I use head patches as a main method of identifying individual leucomelas, and have for some time. But as said, without confirmation from the breeder, it is just as likely a hybrid with some Guyanan blood in it. A pure spotted would never have that head decoration, in my experience. 
So, if you're not planning on becoming a leuc rancher, based on this one specimen, (and you certainly should not) I think you can tell you friends it's a: Guyanan banded, and not be lying. It just lacks a pedigree.
Other species of frogs can vary quite widely, in color and pattern,making such a claim impossible to assert. But leucs are small group of morphs and pretty identifiable.


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Ravage said:


> Just to get back the original question: it's the Guyanan morph, or of it. The bandeds have, among other patterns, that single ******** decoration (or Orange: "O", if you prefer). While the body is not characteristic of a banded, it is not impossibly so, and could be a pure-blood with a weird pattern. I wouldn't count on it being pure. However: Standard leuc heads will have multiple black spots in the head patch. They will not create a doughnut. I use head patches as a main method of identifying individual leucomelas, and have for some time. But as said, without confirmation from the breeder, it is just as likely a hybrid with some Guyanan blood in it. A pure spotted would never have that head decoration, in my experience.
> So, if you're not planning on becoming a leuc rancher, based on this one specimen, (and you certainly should not) I think you can tell you friends it's a: Guyanan banded, and not be lying. It just lacks a pedigree.
> Other species of frogs can vary quite widely, in color and pattern,making such a claim impossible to assert. But leucs are small group of morphs and pretty identifiable.


Thanks for the information! The doughnut is certainly a distinguishing mark. I'm NOT looking to be a Leuc rancher lmfao I figured it was a mutt of some kind, but being super orange and "tiger" stripes threw me completely. This bold lil guy or gal will have a special little tank all their own. Unlike my auratus, this one likes climbing to the top of the tank and chilling out. Debating doing a 10 gallon vertical conversion on an unused tank I already own. Hopefully those kits aren't too tough to work with.


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## Sigmon (Oct 31, 2018)

Compare with Kenny Izumi leucomelas, also called Clown leucs or Bandit leucs - these were linebred out from standard leucomelas. 
Guyana Banded leucomelas have horizontal bands across the back and around the belly, not vertical stripes down the back.


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

Sigmon,
I'm not convinced. The K. Izumi line don't have the doughnut, they have spectacles. The banding could be the same as a banded, missing the central body band. Rear leg pattern is totally plausible for a banded, but not a standard (or Izumi BTW) The forelimbs are the only similarities I see between the questioned specimen and the Izumi linebred. Does anyone know if he's still producing them, or has the line bred out? 
Anyway, still possibly either a hybrid, or a unique patterned individual.


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Sigmon said:


> Compare with Kenny Izumi leucomelas, also called Clown leucs or Bandit leucs - these were linebred out from standard leucomelas.
> Guyana Banded leucomelas have horizontal bands across the back and around the belly, not vertical stripes down the back.


After sending repeated messages to the previous owner he finally told me it was NOT from a friend in the hobby but from USAFrogs. Looking back on our conversation when I was originally inquiring about it I asked if they were from a warehouse breeder or a private collector. He must have assumed a random made up friend would be a better answer than simply stating the truth. Wasn't trying to judge, only learn this animals history lol Thank you to everyone who contributed to solving the mystery!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Stephenia said:


> USAFrogs.


There are some interesting threads here about this company. You can enter their name in the search bar to find them. I think that origin brings into question any determination of the ID of your frog, even to the species level -- I don't suspect that enough is known about the visual appearance of various hybrids to exclude that possibility.


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Stephenia said:
> 
> 
> > USAFrogs.
> ...


Thank you! I definitely have more research to keep me busy while I impatiently wait for foam to cure


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

The only time I have seen one that looked like that was on usafrogs and the bandit Leuc. I was going to buy from them until I noticed how they trademarked the bandit leuc. Look at the little TM on the website next to the name. After seeing that I went back to google and determined I would never consider buying from them for that reason. Who knows what the hell they did to create that.


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

aapuzzo said:


> The only time I have seen one that looked like that was on usafrogs and the bandit Leuc. I was going to buy from them until I noticed how they trademarked the bandit leuc. Look at the little TM on the website next to the name. After seeing that I went back to google and determined I would never consider buying from them for that reason. Who knows what the hell they did to create that.


Previous owner finally admitted that it is exactly that, a "bandit" Leucomelas. Not exactly pleased by the poor baby's lineage, but it's safe from being gecko food and has all the FFs it wants lol trademarking an animal seems outrageous to me, as does "creating" new lines when there are soooooo many beautiful NATURALLY occurring varieties!!!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Stephenia said:


> Previous owner finally admitted that it is exactly that, a "bandit" Leucomelas. Not exactly pleased by the poor baby's lineage, but it's safe from being gecko food and has all the FFs it wants lol trademarking an animal seems outrageous to me, as does "creating" new lines when there are soooooo many beautiful NATURALLY occurring varieties!!!


The initial tendency to absolutely refuse to take part in the 'what morph is this' business often gets justified in the end.

I think you're realizing what really matters -- it is a great frog, and has a good caring home and will bring you pleasure. Putting a name on it doesn't change that.


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

Oh I absolutely agree! Knowing WHAT it is has become secondary now that I'm finding out this individuals personality and preferences. Having done 0 research into Leucomelas I wasn't sure if they normally would prefer a horizontal setup or vertical one, but this little one has been all over the tall plants in my quarantine tank so vertical it is lol


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

A 10 gallon set up vertically is too small for leucs. You need more floor space. They might work for Ranitomeya thumbnails, but they're not large enough for Dendrobates.


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## Stephenia (Jul 18, 2020)

JPP said:


> A 10 gallon set up vertically is too small for leucs. You need more floor space. They might work for Ranitomeya thumbnails, but they're not large enough for Dendrobates.


He's back in his original 18x18x18 tank he came in, but sterilized and rebuilt.


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