# panacur frustrations



## SmackoftheGods

So, I had fecals on my leucomelas done over this past week from Dr. Frye. I was told to treat with panacur once a week for four weeks. This is the first time I've ever had to use panacur so I did some research and found that I should be able to go to my local vet (who, by the way, refused to give me panacur without either an examination or a prescription, but since Dr Frye's assitant told me Dr. Frye doesn't write prescriptions for panacur I got to take my frogs in for a vet examination - totally twice the amount for both the fecal examination and fecal shipping to Dr. Frye - with a doctor who admitted to only having ever seen a dart frog once in all her time practicing... awesome) to get some. So, now I have my panacur, but I've gotten different sotires on how to use it. Dr Frye told me once a week for four weeks. My vet gave me a very specific dose to give to each frog (although how I'm supposed to give such an accurate dose when dusting fruit flies I'm not quite sure) once a day for six days. 

Obviously I'm more inclined to trust Dr. Frye, but the vet I took them to has me a little worried, wondering if I can accidentally overdose my frogs on panacur and what methods I can use to prevent this.... Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## ChrisK

Really? I got ALL my frog meds from Dr Frye including panacur, is this a new policy or something?

On the dosing, are you QTing them separately or together?


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## stemcellular

you can just order panacur and levacol online from dartfrog.co.uk


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## SmackoftheGods

ChrisK said:


> Really? I got ALL my frog meds from Dr Frye including panacur, is this a new policy or something?
> 
> On the dosing, are you QTing them separately or together?


Well, I found out today while doing my research that apparently Dr Frye offers panacur... which is too bad 'cause I didn't know that. But they didn't say he was unwilling to _give_ me panacur, they said he was unwilling to write a prescription _for_ panacur which would allow my vet to give me panacur "ethically."

So far I'd kinda planned on QTing them as a group, I might consider QTing them in pairs but I suppose if I have to do it individually I can do that.


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## porkchop48

Since when you do need a script for panacur?


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## melas

i bought a pack a while back . . . haven't needed it yet but you can't beat the price!

Panacur C Canine Dewormer Three 1 Gram Packages


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## stemcellular

Fertilisers & Feeds Price List


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## Ed

SmackoftheGods said:


> (who, by the way, refused to give me panacur without either an examination or a prescription, but since Dr Frye's assitant told me Dr. Frye doesn't write prescriptions for panacur I got to take my frogs in for a vet examination - totally twice the amount for both the fecal examination and fecal shipping to Dr. Frye - with a doctor who admitted to only having ever seen a dart frog once in all her time practicing... awesome) to get some.?


People should be aware that different states have regulations on this sort of item.. some states prohibit treatments without seeing the animal.. or having a long standing relationship with the owner of said animals... it isn't always that the vet is trying to make money or make it difficult. 




SmackoftheGods said:


> So, now I have my panacur, but I've gotten different sotires on how to use it. Dr Frye told me once a week for four weeks. My vet gave me a very specific dose to give to each frog (although how I'm supposed to give such an accurate dose when dusting fruit flies I'm not quite sure) once a day for six days.
> 
> Obviously I'm more inclined to trust Dr. Frye, but the vet I took them to has me a little worried, wondering if I can accidentally overdose my frogs on panacur and what methods I can use to prevent this.... Any thoughts or suggestions?


I have problems believing that the difference in dosing frequency for fenbendazole is going to be sufficient to cause a problem with the frogs.. one every six days versus once every seven days?? 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods

Ed said:


> People should be aware that different states have regulations on this sort of item.. some states prohibit treatments without seeing the animal.. or having a long standing relationship with the owner of said animals... it isn't always that the vet is trying to make money or make it difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have problems believing that the difference in dosing frequency for fenbendazole is going to be sufficient to cause a problem with the frogs.. one every six days versus once every seven days??
> 
> Ed



True, it's just been a frustrating process and I probably shouldn't be harboring a grudge against my vet, I'm sure she was just doing what she felt was right.

However, I believe you misread the suggested treatment. Dr. Frye recommended once a week for four weeks. My local vet recommended once EVERY day for six straight days.


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## ChrisK

QTing them separately lets you control how many flies they each get, I successfully treated sylvaticus and histrionicus for hookworm once a week for 4 weeks with panacur, about 30 dusted flies each in ff-proof QT containers, put them in a clean QT container the next day after dosing and bleach-clean the dirty ones with 10% bleach solution soaking totally submerged for more than 15 mintues, I found that to work for frogs that you know will eat the flies, pumilio I used ivermectin drops on the back since they run and don't eat the flies right away when you open their containers and you don't know how many flies they're getting. Just what I found to work for me, use at your own risk.


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## SmackoftheGods

ChrisK said:


> QTing them separately lets you control how many flies they each get, I successfully treated sylvaticus and histrionicus for hookworm once a week for 4 weeks with panacur, about 30 dusted flies each in ff-proof QT containers, put them in a clean QT container the next day after dosing and bleach-clean the dirty ones with 10% bleach solution soaking totally submerged for more than 15 mintues, I found that to work for frogs that you know will eat the flies, pumilio I used ivermectin drops on the back since they run and don't eat the flies right away when you open their containers and you don't know how many flies they're getting. Just what I found to work for me, use at your own risk.


Ya know? Phrases like "use at your own risk" aren't particularly comforting


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## ChrisK

Well I'm not a Dr so..  Of course follow the same feeding and supplementation schedule that they normally had on non dosing days


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## David M. Frye DVM

Sorry about the frustration. I was asked by my receptionist to write a script for someone on the phone so they could get Panacur locally. It is not my protocol to do so. I wish you would have mentioned your frustration to me in our e-mail correspondences, I could have easily sent you the medications. My standard form letter answer is...

"As a first aid kit, I strongly recommend having a few drugs on hand at all times. That way when a medical problem arises, you just need to contact me, and I can steer you down the right path. 
Metronidizole is an antibacterial, antiprotozoal, and APPETITE STIMULANT. It is $30 per 100 mLs.
Silversulfadiazene is a topical antibiotic and antifungal that promotes healing while discouraging scarring. It should be used on ALL skin lesions and costs $34 per ounce.
Baytril is a strong systemic a strong antibiotic that needs to be mixed carefully. It costs $24 per ounce and is mixed according to the size of the frog treated. Only a few drops are used daily.
Panacur is a powdered dewormer. It is very safe and easy to use and costs $14 per spoonful.
Shipping costs $11 for Priority on any order that includes one of the liquid medications. If you purchase Panacur alone, shipping costs $2. I can not ship medications outside of the United States.
You can order by calling my office at 734-439-2273 and paying via credit card over the phone."

David M. Frye, DVM


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## SmackoftheGods

Dr. Frye, my frustration is not with you. During our correspondance you were prompt and polite and helpful. My frustration comes from my local vet who required me to jump through a number of hoops to get anything at all from her. It's especially frustrating that she insisted that panacur is a prescription drug when I can easily go to herpdepot.com and get panacur... just in the liquid form. I feel anxious about handling my frogs at all, let alone restraining them to pry open their mouths so I can medicate them.... This is, by the way, what the vet originally tried to prescribe me. I had to tell her that if I wanted the liquid form I could've gone to herpdepot to get it. 

I've actually got a number of greivances with my local vet. For instance she suggested that I leave them in their normal vivarium and medicate them and after six days the worm infestation was gone not realizing that my vivarium would also be infested. She suggested to me that it's perfectly natural for frogs to get parasites and that it's very common even in well taken care of frogs..... The list, I assure you, goes on.

But, all of that is behind me now. The one thing I'm really looking to know (because I don't really trust a "professional" who knows less about my frogs than I do (I'm referring to my local vet, of course, not you Dr. Frye)) is dosage. Is there a specific dosage or should I just powder my flies and whatever sticks is the dosage? And can my frogs overdose from panacur? I'd be a lot more frustrated if I accidentally over medicated my frogs and a fatality resulted.


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## stemcellular

SmackoftheGods said:


> She suggested to me that it's perfectly natural for frogs to get parasites and that it's very common even in well taken care of frogs.....


Well, she is correct. Same thing goes with **** sapiens.


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## SmackoftheGods

stemcellular said:


> Well, she is correct. Same thing goes with **** sapiens.


True. I've gotta remember that I'm trying to summarize an hour long conversation (what kind of a vet appointment takes an hour long?) into a couple brief paragraphs... in my haste not all the information translates exactly. I'm aware that parasites are a pretty common problem in frogs. The implication (I don't remember the exact quote) was that I'm going to be faced with problem frequently with these same four frogs. If I were to keep them in the same enclosure without doing anything to it she'd be right, too. I even accept the idea that I might see parasites in these same frogs again in their lifetime (I take pretty good care of my frogs so it's not exactly something that I'm _expecting_ but I'm certainly open to the possibility). But the idea that this is some sort of disease that I'm never giong to be able to irraticate, IMO, is absurd.


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## Ed

SmackoftheGods said:


> I even accept the idea that I might see parasites in these same frogs again in their lifetime (I take pretty good care of my frogs so it's not exactly something that I'm _expecting_ but I'm certainly open to the possibility). But the idea that this is some sort of disease that I'm never giong to be able to irraticate, IMO, is absurd.


If your parasites are getting into the enclosure via wild insect then you might never be able to totally resolve the issue.... 

And don't be surprised if the frogs aquire some form of parasite at some point in the future even if you totally clear them.. 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods

Ed said:


> If your parasites are getting into the enclosure via wild insect then you might never be able to totally resolve the issue....
> 
> And don't be surprised if the frogs aquire some form of parasite at some point in the future even if you totally clear them..
> 
> Ed


I'm not using any wild insects. I'm using fruit flies I culture myself (interesting issue that I may have to look into) and occasionally pinhead crickets and springtails acquired from reputable breeders.

As I said, I accept that my frogs may come down with parasites in the future. All I was trying to indicate is that I believe the frequency that my local vet suggested they will (for her it wasn't a matter of "if" at all) contract parasites was bordering on ridiculous.


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## ChrisK

Outside insects make their way into the tanks all the time


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## insularexotics

Disclaimer: I am not avet, so not trained in all of the pharmacology involved in prescribing meds.

That said, I have always used Ivomec diluted in glycerin (I believe) for worming. The advantages are:
1) you can dose a specific amount for the weight of your animal (unlike dusting flies with panacur)
2) you can drop it on their backs without ever handling them (unlike putting liquid panacur in their mouths)
3) it works against the worms (Panacur currently is still pretty effective, but I have heard from numerous people that Panacur resistance is becoming more common in worms)

I am curious why Dr. Frye, and I guess other amphib vets, consider Panacur a better treatment. I know that the margin of safety for fenbendazole (in terms of potential overdosing) is pretty high. But if you can get a good weight on the frog and you have a known concentration of ivermectin you can easily calculate the amount of solution to administer. 

Cheers!


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## PeanutbuttER

SmackoftheGods said:


> My frustration comes from my local vet who required me to jump through a number of hoops to get anything at all from her.


I think I know exactly who you're talking about...  I've been frustrated working with her in the past too.


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