# Fast Draining substrates



## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Hi guys! I've been poking around doing more research and have more questions that I haven't found the answer to yet...

Substrates! There seem to be a zillion different options, but one thing that most people don't seem to comment on is how quickly they drain. I'm probably looking for the ultimate substrate that doesn't exist, but I'd really like to find a good substrate with the following characteristics :

1) Can harbor lots of microfauna (springtailss, isopods's, whatever else I can manage to get in there)
2) Stands up to "rain" (not 5 second bursts of mist, but several gallons of water flowing through the substrate every day)
3) Drains reasonably quickly (so that the rainwater doesn't overly puddle)

Maybe quick draining is less of an issue given that I plan to keep upwards of 5-7 gallons of water in the sump, but I'd really like the system to survive a very long rain shower in the event of a timer fail or idiot mistake on my part.

The Clay substrate thread intrigues me, but I haven't read about anyone using it in conjunction with a rainbar or rain chamber. ABG is appealing because I can buy a baggie of it and not worry about getting it wrong, but I dunno how well it drains or harbours microfauna (i'm guessing it's pretty good at the latter, but i dunno about the former).

Maybe I should worry a little less about substrate longevity in my first viv, but I'm thinking a rain system would artificially "age" any substrate beyond it's years.

thanks!
-GB


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

I like the ABG mix because it is more like soil, drains pretty well and the plants love it.


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## happy dart (Nov 22, 2009)

Well, some sort of natural aquarium gravel obviously could drain very well and would have a very long lifespan. Patrick at Saurian reccomends it along with a layer of leaf litter/moss on top. The litter would help with the invertebrate diversity you were looking for. 

From my limited experience with gravel I can tell you that philodendrons grow well in it, though I'm not sure about other plants. 

Good luck!


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

A couple inches of leva covered by those coco husk chips.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

I guess the classic old hydroton under a "jungle" type mix under leaf litter would work well. Afaik the springtails would stay in the top layer of soil and leaf litter, and as long as the hydroton is constantly wet a good variety of beneficial bacteria would form...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I haven't worked up a clay substrate to try under an actual rain bar but I do have substrates that are misted continously for 4 minutes a day right now and they are holding their form and draining well. 

If wouldn't use the ABG as the sole substrate in a situation like that as it will compact and retain a lot of moisture. Instead I would suggest trying one of the Infield conditioners like Turface brands. They are partially fired clay, small particle size than hydrotone/leca, but are very light unlike gravel. The spaces between the particles is very conducive to microfauna (and if you place some cover for larger types (like a piece of bark or small stone slab) you can provide cover for larger types like the bigger isopods. 

Ed


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

I agree with Ed. I've been using Turface MVP infield conditioner for years as the bulk of my substrate. On top of that, I put a layer of high quality long fibre Sphagnum moss, and on top of that I put a layer of Oak leaves. I also have a water feature that continuously drains through the substrate, i.e. 100's of gallons of water per day. The substrate does not compact and does not dissolve. And, I have no problems growing plants in this substrate.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> I haven't worked up a clay substrate to try under an actual rain bar but I do have substrates that are misted continously for 4 minutes a day right now and they are holding their form and draining well.
> 
> If wouldn't use the ABG as the sole substrate in a situation like that as it will compact and retain a lot of moisture. Instead I would suggest trying one of the Infield conditioners like Turface brands. They are partially fired clay, small particle size than hydrotone/leca, but are very light unlike gravel. The spaces between the particles is very conducive to microfauna (and if you place some cover for larger types (like a piece of bark or small stone slab) you can provide cover for larger types like the bigger isopods.
> 
> Ed


Where do you get it? Sounds pretty cool.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Google thier website and look for dealers near you. I get mine from John Deere Landscaping supply stores. 

Ed


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Turface is cheap as well. 14 dollars for a 50 pound bag.


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Cool, the only rainbar viv I've read much about was using turface as the substrate, though she was having rather slow drainage, but she was also using weedblock and I intend to use window screen on top of my false bottom.

-GB


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

What sized grain turface did she use? It does come in different sizes so if she used a fine one, it would help clog up weedguard... 
I use a fine mesh window screen with no problems. 
Ed


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Ed said:


> What sized grain turface did she use? It does come in different sizes so if she used a fine one, it would help clog up weedguard...
> I use a fine mesh window screen with no problems.
> Ed


She didn't say (her video is posted in the "how wet is too wet?" thread in this section). Which size do you use?

thanks,
GB


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

gbeauvin said:


> She didn't say (her video is posted in the "how wet is too wet?" thread in this section). Which size do you use?
> 
> thanks,
> GB


I think I have the quick dry. 

Ed


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

Here is a comparison of Turface Quick Dry vs. Turface MVP:









Turface Quick Dry









Turface MVP

I've never used Turface Quick Dry, but I have been using Turface MVP for over 12 years. MVP drains well, doesn't compact or dissolve, and plants do well in it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

My mistake, I have the MVP... for some reason by the time I got back to the computer my brain had flipped it on me. 

Ed


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

Cool, thanks guys! Looks like I have a substrate choice . False bottom, screen, MVP, leaf litter... does that sound reasonable?

-GB


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

gbeauvin said:


> Cool, thanks guys! Looks like I have a substrate choice . False bottom, screen, MVP, leaf litter... does that sound reasonable?
> 
> -GB


I'd add a layer of high quality long fibre Sphagnum moss between the MVP and the leaf litter. Also, if you do add the layer of Sphagnum moss, make sure there are no grass leaves in it, otherwise you'll get mould. The leaf litter should be freshly fallen washed Oak (what I use) or Magnolia (there may be other kinds of leaves that can be used, but these two are the ones used most often and they don't mould) and should also have no grass leaves in it. I'm not saying the Sphagnum moss is absolutely necessary, but I find it to be helpful because it will catch leaf particles and prevent exposed spots of MVP as the leaves decompose. If you get exposed spots of MVP the frogs will track it everywhere.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

I have the Turface quickdry it drains extremely well. I have a triple layer of your standard window screen to prevent it from falling into the false bottom.


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## tulip55555 (Aug 31, 2011)

Hi. I realize this is an old thread, but it seemed like a great one to ask my question....
I can't get Turface in my area, believe me I've tried! Has anyone ever used Oil Dri?? 
In case one of the concerns would be whether it holds up in water please let me elaborate...Oil Dri is the parent company of Turface. It is my understanding that the only difference is that Oil Dri is fired at a slightly lower temp. I it often used as an aquarium substrate and it holds up well in water. 
Thanks so much,
Patricia


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I use OilDry or similar brands. I also use it in my bonsai collection. It promotes amazing mycorrhizae production. Most automotive stores carry it. Its a product used for absorbing oil spill. I use it in the garden and it can even be used as a cat litter. Its retains moisture and stays very airy. I mix that with crushed tree fern, crushed leaves, and some coco. My bugs BOOM in it.


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## WONTON SALLY (Jun 26, 2011)

here is what the hydroton looks like:
















you may want to seperate the layers with landscaping cloth like this as well.


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## tulip55555 (Aug 31, 2011)

mordoria said:


> I use OilDry or similar brands. I also use it in my bonsai collection. It promotes amazing mycorrhizae production. Most automotive stores carry it. Its a product used for absorbing oil spill. I use it in the garden and it can even be used as a cat litter. Its retains moisture and stays very airy. I mix that with crushed tree fern, crushed leaves, and some coco. My bugs BOOM in it.


So you use it mixed into your substrate soil in a frog viv?


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## WONTON SALLY (Jun 26, 2011)

nope, it is either the 1st or last layer depending on which way you look at it. i always put two more layers on top of it. next will either be plantation soil ot coco husk-which ever is fine and the last layer is sphagnum moss, so a total of 3 layers.


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## WONTON SALLY (Jun 26, 2011)

so you can see the 3 layers in the above pics, drains well holds humidity awesome.


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## tulip55555 (Aug 31, 2011)

Thanks for taking the time to post pics. Very helpful


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

You can add LECA to substrate mixtures, it is not only to create drainage layers. When mixing it into substrates I prefer hydroballs because they are smaller and since they are brown they blend in better. I mix hydroballs into the substrate for my plant propogation tanks and it does seem to improve soil quality. I believe the larger grade turface would act similarly.


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## WONTON SALLY (Jun 26, 2011)

gbeauvin








Junior Member

let us know what you decide to go with.


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