# Feeding PDFs ants: Particularly Pharaoh Ants (Monomorium pharaonis)



## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Hey I am just wondering if anyone has thought of culturing ants to feed PDF's. I know of someones apartment who has Pharaoh Ants, and was thinking of trying to capture and culitvate them (workers can turn into breeding queens) to feed to my PDFs. They are non-agressive and very small. I just want to know if anyone has any opinions about feeding ants of any type to PDFs.


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## dancjoseph (Nov 8, 2007)

I am curious about the long-term effects of feeding with ants also. I have a small colony of ants that I wouldn't mind feeding off of. (Not sure of ant species, but are small and they seem to like aphids...) I do not have any PDF's yet, but plan to, hopefully soon.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Well, I'm kinda torn on this one.

By reading this: Pharaoh ant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I would say trying to culture them is a BAD BAD idea as you would likely end up with an infestation in your house and vivs from a few escapees.

On the other hand.... if you wanted a self sustaining tank and could find a way to seal it really well that would likely provide a sustainable population of food providing the PDF's will eat them.

I still say however with as rapid as they can infest an area even a small amount of escapees would possibly turn into a very bad thing.

EDIT: Another thing to think about is if the PDF's don't eat them or don't eat all of them and they colonize a smaller tank (or even a large one depending on how prolific they are) it is possible they would over run the PDF's in the tank with sheer numbers and stress the frogs heavily.


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## dancjoseph (Nov 8, 2007)

After reading the wiki article, I would say I definately don't have the pharoah ants, mine are a bit larger than that... interesting read though.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

I agree... Pharaoh Ants... not a good idea (I did some more reading too). As for other ants, what do people think? There are several other ants that are not agressive that would be good feeders (Lasius neoniger comes to mind) and wouldn't be hard to cultivate. (I know a lot about ants, I just didn't know a lot about the Pharaoh one until i did my reading).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

We have pharoh ants at work and the dendrobatids don't touch them however they do eat the Tetramorium (pavement ants) that occasionally show up in the building. 

Ed


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

my house has a pharaoh ant prblem , they are very hard to get rid of , more so when they are in and out of the dart tanks.they are not even close to worth the risk of breeding them imo
craig


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

avoid pharoah ants! if they escape, they can be very difficult to control once they become established. Pavement, odorous house, or small honey ants would all be decent choices to culture and feed to pdfs. I don't culture any ants currently, however, if I did, I would use them to supplement my FF and bean beetles. I don't believe I would use them as the primary food source.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Does anyone know the nutrition of ants? Also, does anyone know of a place to get a colony of small ants? I know they are illegal to sell across state lines, but I can find people who trade carpenter ants and other large ants but not small ones.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Mark,

Ants are typically considered to be a lower quality food source due to the high chitin content (there is some comparisions with animals (particuarly Plethodon cinereus) using them as a food choice versus other invertebrates as part of a number of behaviors (everything from mate choice to how strongly they defend a territory)) but you can get some baseline numbers to compare from this and similar articles. 
ScienceDirect - Journal of Food Composition and Analysis : Nutritional Value of Edible Insects from the State of Oaxaca, Mexico*1 

I have a different one around here somewhere that also does termites.. 

The small black pavement ants (usually Tetramorium) are typically fairly easy to culture and have been reported as being acceptable to dendrobatids. These colonies can be dug up and then established to allow for collection and feeding. There is a decent section on ant culturing in Journey to the Ant. 


Ed


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Thanks for that information Ed. Very useful. It looks like ants can be a good addition to a diet, but nothing to be relied on. Now I just wish winter hadn't just started so I could get some ants


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

There was a time this summer when I tried harvesting ants after a crash in my ff cultures. My sugar soaked paper towel didn't have the desired effect. Does anyone have an ingenious way of catching ants like a termite trap?


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Truthfully, I am just starting a Master's Project that will entail capturing ants, and The best way in the Scientific world is either baited (with fruit usually) traps that are sunk into the ground or by hand. There have been no other ways that seem to collect ants well. By hand allows for more precise choice of what types of ants you are collecting and how many, if you are really interested look in the book The Ants, by Holldobler and Wilson who explain several methods to collect ants. I find that ants are usually attracted to half an orange or apple in the grass and you can just pick them up by hand... plus this way, if they sting you, you know that they are not right for your frogs. (For ant identification, which might help in collecting, I recommend The Ants of North America, by Cover and Fisher.)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Glasious said:


> if they sting you, you know that they are not right for your frogs. (For ant identification, which might help in collecting, I recommend The Ants of North America, by Cover and Fisher.)


Just to be clear here.. there is a (big) difference between biting and stinging.. for example Tetramorium can bite but they do not sting. This may be an important point as many people do not make the distinction and will reject an ant as having had it "sting" them when instead it has bitten them. 

Tetramorium is not always attracted to sweet items like fruit and you may be better off using a high fat bait like some greasy potato chips. In many parts of the country, an introduced Tetramorium is locally abundent (black pavement ants) specifically T. caespitum. These ants can be collected with a shovel and a bucket.. as the mounds tend to be fairly small and on a warm day, the ants will be congregated in the upper areas. A couple of shovel fulls into a bucket and you'll have most of a colony including pupae, larva and eggs. Seperating the ants is a little more diffficult.... 

I would not suggest dumping a bunch of really riled up ants into a enclosure with your frogs.. in the wild the frogs orientent themselves along feeding trails and pick off the ants without triggering a defensive reaction (and if they do, they can simply flee).. Placing the ants into an container where they can slowly emerge after they have calmed down is a better option.. 

Ed 


Ed


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## PingKing (Sep 28, 2008)

Glasious said:


> Thanks for that information Ed. Very useful. It looks like ants can be a good addition to a diet, but nothing to be relied on. Now I just wish winter hadn't just started so I could get some ants


 Glasious PM sent


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Ed, that is a good point, biting ants are definitely different then stinging ones. 
Keeping the ants calm is also a very good idea.
And if potato chips work better for pavement ants great! I have little experience with Tetramorium, as they do not live in Alberta. I was going off of my experience with Myrmica and Lasius species which are rather calm and love decaying fruit.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Not yet at least.. thier natural range runs up into Sweden and Norway so I wouldn't be surprised if they show up there.. they currently only appear to range into Ontario at this time (see Invasive ants - Tetramorium caespitum (L.)) 

Ed


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## galexie (Jun 29, 2006)

Just say no to Pharaoh Ants! My apartment just had a horrible infestation and a colony of those little bastards ate my Auratus's. I mistakenly thought my vivs were safe, but one day when I went to feed my frogs I found a trail of ants going into the viv. I thought to my self that, "hey these frogs eat ants, right? I bet my frogs are gobbling them up as we speak." I was wrong. There were far too many ants for the frogs to eat. By the time I found the frogs, which was less than a day given my feeding schedule, they were dead. The ants quite literally picked the flesh off the bones of my frogs. 

Pharaoh ants are clever ants. They have multiple queens and can easily split into multiple colonies and overcome your frogs. Outside of that they can and will climb glass when the food runs out (they crave different kinds of food and will start searching if it is not in their immediate area) and start new colonies where ever they go. 

In summation, DO NOT F*** with Pharaoh Ants.


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

Galexie that is a very frightening prospect, thank you for sharing that story, Pharaoh Ants are definitely not a food source i would consider.
Ed, I agree that ants could definitely be extending their ranges, however amazingly the only invasive ants species in Alberta is the Pharaoh Ant, everything else is native: http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/old_site/uasm/formicidae.htm.


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