# Panacur treatment - hides/plants/substrate in temp enclosure



## HaikuWarriors41 (Jun 15, 2007)

Got the fecals back for my azureus pair today - one clean, one loaded with hookworm. I'm assuming that it would be best to keep them both out of their permanent enclosure until the infected one has been treated, as staggering their introductions could make it stressful for both frogs when the second is added. If this isn't the case (due to the fact that they're a sexed pair or some other reason), please inform me and I'll put the clean frog into the viv immediately - one less temp enclosure to deal with!

Anyway, questions about sterilizing the infected frog's temp enclosure while treating with Panacur. (I haven't received the powder from Dr. Frye yet, so I don't have any specific questions about "dosing"/administering it at the time - I understand it's unfortunately not an exact science.) Anyway, I've read that the frog under treatment must have its tank sterilized each week, the day after (?) being given the supplement. If someone could clarify the timing on this - literally feed the dusted flies one day, and then the day after move them into a clean tank? Seems a little backwards. 

But getting the tank clean is my real issue. Using paper towel as a substrate seems like a must (currently I've got sphag), but what can I put over it for hides and plant cover that didn't just come out of the old tank? Having observed these guys for a week, I know that if there aren't ample hiding spots on the ground, they'll spend all day jumping off the walls. Is it good enough to just douse the plants and coco hut with boiling water?

Here's a photo of my current setup:










Top view of enclosure:










I've since doubled the amount of pothos and wandering jew cuttings on the ground, in order to keep the frogs down there more often. I don't have any more lying around, however, so I don't know how to keep supplying clean cover.

Also, for actually making the switch: I'm not sure quite how I could change paper towels at the bottom of these enclosures without having a hop out - it seems like I'll need to get a second one and rotate them. Yes?

Thanks for your help!


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## Ashli (Aug 28, 2005)

the only thing I can help with is the paper changing issue. When I change the paper in my quar. tanks, I put a delicup over the frog in the tank and slowly slide the paper out from underneath.

when I lay down new sheets I fold a few in half. You can usually kind of scoot the frog over onto the new paper and replace the other half.

Hopefully that makes sense.


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

Sounds like the cure is worse than the affliction in your case. I hope the stress of quarantine and constant moving and paper changing doesn't cause real problems with stress and immunosuppression. 
As a mere layman, I certainly don't question your vet's credentials but I find the diagnosis "loaded with hookworm" rather curious. Though untold species of hookworm (_Ancylostoma_) are found in all classes of vertebrates, I know from my own limited experience that they are very rare in fishes and amphibians. Normally it is the presence of the very distinctive thin shelled morula or larvated eggs in fresh fecals that are diagnostic for hookworm. In the case of mammals such as dogs or cats this diagnosis can be given with high confidence. Any vet student worth a "C" grade in Parasitology 101 can pick out a hookworm egg in a lineup of worm eggs. In the case of "lower" vertebrates the level of confidence falls as many other forms of Strongiloides and Trichostrongyloides have identical hyaline eggs. And the larval forms of almost all nematodes are identical. Only when the larvae reach the 3rd stage filariform can they be identified to at least order or maybe family. 
In captive bred and born frogs that are several generations removed from their wild origins, I don't think the presence of nematode parasites equate to any disease condition. They are a natural part of the frogs intestinal biota. The presence of nematode eggs or larvae in fecals without clinical signs of disease does not warrant any treatment in my opinion. Certainly not the complete teardown of the vivarium and the constant displacement of your frog into and out of quarantine. The stress involved will kill your frog faster than most parasitic worms.
If the parasite load is heavy, dose him with Panacur and after 24 hours move him into new quarters.
Let the old vivarium sit for a couple weeks. Infective J3 larva will usually die within 3 days of not finding a host. These larva do come to the surface but will be confined to the capillary level of the substrate. They don't crawl all over the tank onto foliage or above ground furnishings. Stop misting the old viv for a couple days to allow the surface to dry out some. After a couple days you should be free of infective stage larva. Freeliving adults may continue to live in the soil and because so many species of soil nematodes can be faculative parasites I think it is unrealistic to think you can or should completely make a viv nematode-free. A healthy frogs immune system will regulate parasite loads for most bugs at nonpathogenic levels. 
My two cents.

This is a Strongyloides sp egg. Though identical to a larvated hookworm egg, it's size falls outside of the range for hookworm. 










George


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## HaikuWarriors41 (Jun 15, 2007)

Thanks for the tip, Ashli - that certainly makes sense.

And thanks much for the detailed analysis, George. I've come to understand that there are certainly differing opinions in the community about normal parasite load and benefits of treatment. As the frogs are brand-new acquisitions that have yet to leave quarantine, however, it seems prudent to make an effort to lighten (remove) what appears to be an abnormally high parasite load in one frog, especially when the second is reported to be clean.

My main questions, it seems, are procedural: first and foremost, I wanted to ensure that introducing one half of a sexed azureus pair into the permanent enclosure before the other would indeed be a poor choice. (If it makes a difference, I'm not yet sure if it would be the male or female half, as that detail was lost in the initial diagnosis but should be confirmed tomorrow in a recheck).

And secondly, I was wondering if anyone had any good tips for easily sterilized/replaced hiding material for the quarantine enclosure - I don't assume the pothos and coco hut I'm using now will be easily sterilized at each cleaning time.

Thanks again for the assistance!


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## 311_dart (May 20, 2006)

For hides in a quarantine enclosure I like to use anything plastic: prescription pill bottles, lengths of pvc pipe, small tupperware bowls, etc. You can make a coco-hut from a plastic butter tub by flipping it over and cutting out a door! Most can be easily cleaned with a soap scrub and a soak in a light bleach solution, followed of course by a GOOD rinsing.

I am not sure the "order of operations" when it comes to timing of sterilizing, but I like to disinfect the entire enclosure before feeding dusted ffs, then 'spot clean' their fecal deposit(s) the following day. Good luck!


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## HaikuWarriors41 (Jun 15, 2007)

Pretty much what I was thinking for hides - don't have any of that stuff on hand, but I guess I'll have to use buy some butter in a tub or the like!

Widespread cover on the ground is what I'm most concerned about, however - speaking only from my experience in the past week, I've noticed a strong correlation between the amount of leaf cover on the ground and the frogs' comfort level with staying and hunting down there, as opposed to spending all day scaling the walls. I just don't have enough (i.e. any more) cuttings to keep on replacing them each week. I guess I could just try to score a monster plant in the next few days and keep replacing off of that. Would happily accept other suggestions, however.

Thanks for the advice!


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## neudl (Oct 18, 2007)

I use the standard Rubbermade plastic bins from Fred Meyer for quarantine, with damp paper towel bottom. For hiding, I use pothos leaves and a plastic cup cut in half, which seems to suit the frogs just fine. I rotate bins after each treatment, and then clean the used bin with bleach water. The bins are only a couple of bucks, so it seems like an easy solution, and less stressful than trying to change everything out with the frogs in the tub. The one caution I have is that I quit using the "habihut" half wood rounds (like the one in your picture) for hiding when a frog in quarantine got its head crushed by one. I don't know if it shifted when I jostled the tub, but one morning, there it was. Plastic cups are lighter, so there is no danger to the frogs, and can be disposed-of and replaced.


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