# Skeleton...



## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

I have always had a fascination with skulls and skeletons. I would love to bring this into my love for frogs as well. Im posting this in the science section because i know we have quite a few people in the science field and im sure more than a few research frogs.

Now, onto my question. Do any of you researchers keep specimens that were used for dissecting and such? Has anyone gone through the process of decomposition to get a skeleton? In short would anyone have excess or be willing to harvest a skeleton for sale? I would like to purchase one but do NOT want one from a frog that was killed to harvest it. I would like one from a frog that died either naturally or for a research/scientific purpose. Also i would love to save it from the trash, no sense in it going to waste.

This might sound gruesome or morbid to some but to me it is sort of giving the frog a second life.


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Articulated frog skeletons can be purchased through biological supply companies. I say this so you can keep your eyes peeled at the closure of schools and the like which may have used them. They tend to be bullfrogs. Little frogs are difficult to articulate.

I think if you really want to go down this route, you should look into 'clearing and staining', the chemical process that makes flesh transparent, but makes the skeleton visible- and it remains fully articulated. It is a bit of a process, but the results can be spectacular and very useful.

Afemoralis


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## WinifredBarkle (Dec 9, 2012)

I don't think its morbid at all. As a Bio major, and future Bio teacher I think about stuff like this all the time. I have been wanting to drive out to PA to see the Mutter Museum forever now. It's a long enough drive from Ohio to be more than a weekend trip, but not long enough for a full vacation.

If you can find a prepped specimen that would be awesome to see!


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Just as an aside, you probably won't be able to get an animal sacrificed for research. These specimens will typically need to be put in a museum, or will have to be disposed of as per the organizations' IACUC.


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## Lifeguard (Jun 30, 2011)

I have a froglet that randomly died. It was pretty much gone by the time I found it. I had it in a small tank by itself. Since it wasn't hurting any others and I was curious I left it in there and now have a skeleton. In short I do have one.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

easternversant said:


> Just as an aside, you probably won't be able to get an animal sacrificed for research. These specimens will typically need to be put in a museum, or will have to be disposed of as per the organizations' IACUC.


Well that is unfortunate. Thanks for the tip on "clearing and staining" it does seem to be quite a process, and i dont know if i would have access to some of the chemicals (unless theyre just the scientific name for more common chems) perhaps some day ill have to try my hand at it. I hope it never happens but if i ever lose a frog i think i will give it a try. Or maybe if someone has any experience with the method and access to the chemicals, i would be willing to pay for a prepared specimen.

Thanks for the replies, i knew there would be at least a few people who share my odd taste.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Lifeguard said:


> I have a froglet that randomly died. It was pretty much gone by the time I found it. I had it in a small tank by itself. Since it wasn't hurting any others and I was curious I left it in there and now have a skeleton. In short I do have one.


Thats pretty cool (not the loss of your frog, sorry about that). The only problem im seeing is the process of mounting or articulating. And to be honest i dont much like the idea of a pile of bones. I would love to see a picture though.


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## Lifeguard (Jun 30, 2011)

I'll get a pic after work. Looks like it is still intact.


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## WinifredBarkle (Dec 9, 2012)

Looks like you can get most of the supplies through Carolina Supply. I just glanced through the steps and if I had a way to get specimens, I would totally try this. 

Unfortunately, Carolina only has rats cleared and stained. They do have a kit that has a frog though. Like others mentioned, articulating anything but maybe a Regina would be near impossible due to size and fragility.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

well, I suppose if you left a deceased dart frog on a petri dish or something similar and allowed the microfauna to pick it clean you could leave the skeleton intact and pour a clear resin over it to encase it


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

frogparty said:


> well, I suppose if you left a deceased dart frog on a petri dish or something similar and allowed the microfauna to pick it clean you could leave the skeleton intact and pour a clear resin over it to encase it


My conern is when the connective tissue broke down or got eaten the bones would just fall apart. I really like the idea of clearing and staining. I even got my girlfriend on board . I think ill start slowly acquiring the materials and see if anyone would preserve and send me a specimen to try it on. 

Thanks everyone for the advice. But by all means discuss. I would love to hear of any experiences with the process or other views in the topic.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

well...I had a frog die in qt that I couldnt find, and its skeleton was completely intact under a magnolia leaf. It wasnt bleached out, but completely articulate still. I would suspect their bones to be VERY delicate, and Id worry that any bleaching agent might damage them. 


If you want a dart skeleton, I think you might have to be satisfied with one non bleached


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

frogparty said:


> well...I had a frog die in qt that I couldnt find, and its skeleton was completely intact under a magnolia leaf. It wasnt bleached out, but completely articulate still. I would suspect their bones to be VERY delicate, and Id worry that any bleaching agent might damage them.
> 
> 
> If you want a dart skeleton, I think you might have to be satisfied with one non bleached


Thats really cool, did it stay intact when you moved it?

On a side note i feel kinda bad using the word cool when talking about frogs dying but i assure you i by no means think the death is cool. I am sorry for everyones losses, but i think this would be a great way to give the frogs a second chance.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I thought the skeleton was super cool. I love that stuff though

It stayed fairly intact, but was on a smaller leaf so it was easy.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

you could get you some Dermetid beetles. They will eat everything off the bones. If you have ever gotten crickets and saw those hairy looking worms those are Dermetids. They put them in with the crickets to eat the dead crickets and whatnot.

"Dermestid beetles are used by universities and museums to prepare skulls and other bones for display. Boiling of skulls is messy, smelly and can damage delicate bone structures such as nasal membranes, loosen suture lines, as well as impart an oily film to the bone. Boiling also shrinks skulls! Preparation with flesh eating beetles avoids these pitfalls. These beetles are easy to maintain and multiply, by following simple procedures. "
source: Kodiak Bones & Bugs Taxidermy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dermestids are not used for skeletons with fine or delicate bones since they will also consume those bones... In addition to use Dermestids, you need to freeze dry the carcass (or dry it out in another way) as too much moisture will prevent the carcass from being consumed and crash the culture. For skeletons with fine bones, isopods are actually the cleaner of choice since they will not damage the bones. Again, you need to control the wetness since too much moisture can crash the isopod cultures. 

As for clearing and staining the skeleton, your going to have a hard time getting ahold of glacial acetic acid. That is highly concentrated and potentially hazardous to use as it can cause burns that don't show up for several hours, and fumes that can problems if inhaled... (think much more concentrated vinegar odor). Most chemical suppliers won't ship even relatively harmless chemical to individuals. However you may be able to get it from a photo supply source since acetic acid is used to make "stop bath" (Photographers Formulary photoformulary.com) but be aware it is going to require hazardous chemical shipping protocols. You can also check and see if you can get a compounding pharmacy to make the stock solutions of acetic acid for you. KOH can be located in some drain cleaners or again potentially from a compounding pharmacy. Cleared skeletons are pretty attactive but they can degrade over time, you should also consider checking out some of John's publications on museum collections as they contain methods for long-term management of the specimens (see an example of his work here Things Great and Small: Collections Management Policies: John E. Simmons: 9781933253039: Amazon.com: Books_). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## WinifredBarkle (Dec 9, 2012)

Thanks for that info Ed. I didn't even think about shipping chemicals like a dummie. I'm right by University of Cincinnati, so if I can get my hands on a specimen I'd contact the bio department and see if I could use their lab/pay for supplies. I wish I was still in Columbus where I had a few "ins" with research staff.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> Dermestids are not used for skeletons with fine or delicate bones since they will also consume those bones... In addition to use Dermestids, you need to freeze dry the carcass (or dry it out in another way) as too much moisture will prevent the carcass from being consumed and crash the culture. For skeletons with fine bones, isopods are actually the cleaner of choice since they will not damage the bones. Again, you need to control the wetness since too much moisture can crash the isopod cultures.
> 
> As for clearing and staining the skeleton, your going to have a hard time getting ahold of glacial acetic acid. That is highly concentrated and potentially hazardous to use as it can cause burns that don't show up for several hours, and fumes that can problems if inhaled... (think much more concentrated vinegar odor). Most chemical suppliers won't ship even relatively harmless chemical to individuals. However you may be able to get it from a photo supply source since acetic acid is used to make "stop bath" (Photographers Formulary photoformulary.com) but be aware it is going to require hazardous chemical shipping protocols. You can also check and see if you can get a compounding pharmacy to make the stock solutions of acetic acid for you. KOH can be located in some drain cleaners or again potentially from a compounding pharmacy. Cleared skeletons are pretty attactive but they can degrade over time, you should also consider checking out some of John's publications on museum collections as they contain methods for long-term management of the specimens (see an example of his work here Things Great and Small: Collections Management Policies: John E. Simmons: 9781933253039: Amazon.com: Books_).
> 
> ...


Well that is unfortunate. Thanks for the info Ed. I didnt realize that some of the chemicals would be really hazardous (i have no background in anything like this). Maybe it would be a better choice to find someone with experience in the process and get them to do it for me; i dont feel comfortable exposing myself and my family to chemicals like that. 

I got all excited that i found a really cool experiment to try with an amazing end product. Back to the drawing board it is. Again thanks Ed for the heads up.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

papajuggalo said:


> Well that is unfortunate. Thanks for the info Ed. I didnt realize that some of the chemicals would be really hazardous (i have no background in anything like this). Maybe it would be a better choice to find someone with experience in the process and get them to do it for me; i dont feel comfortable exposing myself and my family to chemicals like that.
> 
> I got all excited that i found a really cool experiment to try with an amazing end product. Back to the drawing board it is. Again thanks Ed for the heads up.


If you use proper precautions it isn't that big of a deal.. You need to use non-permeable gloves (nitrile), eye protection and excellent ventilation. Keep in mind that diluted to down about 5% acetic acid is basically white vinegar. The stock solutions in the process linked above are pretty safe as long as you again use gloves and eye protection. Those dilutions are much safer and not as likely to cause harm. 

There are a lot of more dangerous chemicals that people expose themselves to on a daily basis with much less concern....for example liquid drain cleaning solutions, muriatic acid (concentrated hydrochloric acid)..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have ready access to glacial acetic acid, and pelletized KOH. Next time I have a frog pass away, Im preserving the skeleton. Good call on the isopods. Pretty sure thats what picked the skeleton I had so clean


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> If you use proper precautions it isn't that big of a deal.. You need to use non-permeable gloves (nitrile), eye protection and excellent ventilation. Keep in mind that diluted to down about 5% acetic acid is basically white vinegar. The stock solutions in the process linked above are pretty safe as long as you again use gloves and eye protection. Those dilutions are much safer and not as likely to cause harm.
> 
> There are a lot of more dangerous chemicals that people expose themselves to on a daily basis with much less concern....for example liquid drain cleaning solutions, muriatic acid (concentrated hydrochloric acid).....
> 
> ...


Wooo. You officially re-brightened my day Ed. 

Looks like the experiment is back on! It will take me some time to gather supplies and acquire a specimen but i will be doing further research in proper protocols for this. How long do you think the specimen would last? At least a few years or is decomp rather quick?


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

frogparty said:


> I have ready access to glacial acetic acid, and pelletized KOH. Next time I have a frog pass away, Im preserving the skeleton. Good call on the isopods. Pretty sure thats what picked the skeleton I had so clean


Please post pictures of the process. Are you planning to go the clearing and staining route or just preserving the skeleton? I am very interested in this and am pretty determined to acquire/preserve my own.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

papajuggalo said:


> Wooo. You officially re-brightened my day Ed.
> 
> Looks like the experiment is back on! It will take me some time to gather supplies and acquire a specimen but i will be doing further research in proper protocols for this. How long do you think the specimen would last? At least a few years or is decomp rather quick?


Several years at least, without good care with good care much longer. You need to keep them out of direct sunlight and check the final preserving solution to see if it needs to be changed or refreshed. 

As an alternative, have you considered Gyotaku style prints? With these the frogs can be kept in a strong ethanol solution (grain alcohol diluted to 70-75%) and used repeatedly as well.. See for a fish example Gyotaku Fish Prints 

Granted the frogs don't have the scalation to give it the same texture but you may be able to get some interesting prints... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

none of the sites mentioning having to freeze dry the carcass but I see your point that they might eat them bones too since the bones of a frog and whatnot could be consumed as well cause they aren't very hard. should have thought about that


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

I imagine you're planning on using a common species as opposed to a dendrobatid right? If the latter, it would be a very expensive project. Either way, good luck, it sounds very cool!


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

curlykid said:


> I imagine you're planning on using a common species as opposed to a dendrobatid right? If the latter, it would be a very expensive project. Either way, good luck, it sounds very cool!


I would like to use a dendrobatid; but i plan to use a frog that passed naturally or euthanized due to health problems. Either way it was destined for the trash so it might as well be used for a purpose.


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## Lifeguard (Jun 30, 2011)

The bones I had were intact till I moved it.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Just one morbid contribution for whatever its worth... 

I had small black ants infest a tank a couple years ago and they skeletonized a juvenile tinctorius surprisingly effectively. There was a base layer of skin partially left under the skeleton but otherwise the skeleton was isolated and primarily intact. In retrospect I'm a bit surprised the bones weren't moved around. Maybe it had something to do with the diminutive size of the ants, or perhaps the springtails had contributed a lot of the work, but it was very surprising considering how small the frog was.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the response! I was afraid most would view this as a touchy subject. Dendroboard never fails me. At first i was worried that getting a preserved dendrobatid skeleton would be impossible due to the size and articulation, but now i feel theres some options. And its definitely doable.


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