# Tadpole Diet and Color



## KeroKero

The 'tricolor's stripes and color' thread (http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4978) turned up an interesting topic not just isolated to _E. tricolor_ but could effect any species that seems particularly diet-dependent color. While many of us have debated the use of color suppliments (peprika/beta carotine/canthoxanthin for reds/yellows and sprulina/chlorella for blues and greens) for those who DO suppliment to attempt to get full wild type color, the debate is when to do it.

To summarize what's been talked about:

Brought up on the thread by Brent (bbrock) was a certain window when the frogs are young for best supplimentation to effect coloration. For example adult _E. tricolor_ 'santa isabel' that have never been supplimented are a bubblegum pink color, and from personal experience these (adult) animals put on the same regiment to color up as my other tricolors (including the same bloodline) don't color up much more than they already are. Supplimented frogs (fed sprulina tadpole diets) of this morph may get a nice blood red but may never the lipstick red of the wild frogs from what I've seen. From my own animals with significant supplimenting via beta carotine in all stages of life (including tadpole) have gotten to be this bright red, or pretty darn close.

Quoting Brent (cuz he says it best):
"Ben Green recently posted pics of vittatus that showed one that was fed beta carotene fish flake food as a tadpole and another that was not. My experience with this same line has been that if you don't feed the color enhancing flake food, then you will never get the bright red-orange stripes no matter how much you supplement with paprika after they morph. Like Corey, I think the tadpole stage is really the key point to get the color on frogs. That's a little hard to do with pumilio [and other obligate eggfeeders]"

If Ben could post that pic here, that would be awesome  

Often these days I hear about people feeding sprulina powder as their tadpole food and I wonder at the coloration and size of these animals later on (I've seen a general trend of small froglets recently so I'm not at all satisfied with this). I take colors close to wild type as a healthy sign, as well as large froglets coming out of the water. When I was breeding good numbers of _E. tricolor_ a couple years ago I worked with their diets as tads after seeing relatively uncared for froglets (morphed out in tanks) morph out twice the size of my first batch of "specially cared for" tads. 

While I realize some of the small froglets might be due to inbreeding and what not, I do believe a lot of it has to do with size as well, at least from my experiences with tricolor, truncatus, and imitator. I don't keep springtails because none of these frogs morphed out to a size where they didn't take melanogaster or even hydei (tricolor) as their first meal.

Thoughts, comments, and tadpole care/feeding regiments wanted!


----------



## bbrock

KeroKero said:


> If Ben could post that pic here, that would be awesome


http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4868&highlight=vittatus


----------



## bbrock

I don't know why this thread is dead. It's a great subject. So I'll add... Matt Mirabello ran controlled experiments where he could consistently produce a skunk or non-skunk pattern based on how he raised the tads. I believe that communal rearing produced skunk patterns but could be wrong. I've raised auratus communally in large tubs (5-6 gal. of water) and did not see a consistent pattern. Interesting.


----------



## KeroKero

Its funny this was more popular under the last thread than standing on its own lol. Matt M. also had some nice stuff on tinc coloration when supplimented..... and I dunno if you've seen his tads or froglets but they are massive so his diet obviously has something other diets lack. I'll bug him to post since he doesn't read the boards much.

There is also the possible difference in froglet size and hardiness with the thumbnails.... parent raised vs. human raised.

Then there is HOW we raise the tads, could we be a little *too* controlling of the environment? Tricolors showed an increase in size by grazing the "sludge" found in many fish tanks (mosty bacteria grazing) and isn't found in the nice new (or freshly cleaned) containers many tads go into. I know some others have had similar luck with this and thumbnail tads. Just rising and putting new water in, not scrubbing the sides to get rid of the bacteria slime.


----------



## bbrock

I couldn't remember the details on Matt's tincs and yes, his frogs are nice looking honkers.

My thoughts on tadpole morph size is that it is influenced by time in the water. Too warm of temps, of course, can speed development and lead to frogs morphing fast and small. I wonder if a rich diet could do similar. However, P. vittatus tads reared on their own by just grazing on algae and microbes living in the pool in the viv tend to morph smaller than flake fed tads. But they are very robust and I've never seen one morph out in the viv that didn't survive and thrive.

I guess we have our own private thread.


----------



## tikifrog

Sorry to intrude! I'd like to jump in with galactonotus if I may. I have had a small clutch of yellow galacts morph. The parents are a nice yellow. The previous batch had color similar to the parents. These are much more orange. They are 10 days out of the water. The previous tads were fed primarily an algae mix, and were morphed in the viv with the parents. This group received mostly "rich mix" and other prepared foods. Their eggs were pulled and the tads were raised in 16oz delis. Is it possible that these froglets may fade to a more yellow color as they age? Has anyone encountered variations in their galact clutches?

John R.


----------



## Guest

I haven't really tested the timing needed to add the color enhancers with the vittatus tads. I feed on alternating cycle of color flakes and spirullina flakes. I have a few tads in the same group right now coloring up. They are more yellow than normal. I haven't feed them the color enhancing food for the last two weeks, so I am guessing that the color food needs to be fed when the tads are starting to color up ( just after the appearance of hind legs). Interesting thread.


----------



## bbrock

Bgreen said:


> I haven't really tested the timing needed to add the color enhancers with the vittatus tads. I feed on alternating cycle of color flakes and spirullina flakes. I have a few tads in the same group right now coloring up. They are more yellow than normal. I haven't feed them the color enhancing food for the last two weeks, so I am guessing that the color food needs to be fed when the tads are starting to color up ( just after the appearance of hind legs). Interesting thread.


Man this thread is getting crowded ;-) Before I went the lazy route and let the frogs do the work, I fed vittatus once a week with color flake from the time they were eating flake. 

Many years ago someone said that blue and green colors tend to be structrual while reds and yellows are pigment. That's true in birds but I don't know about frogs. If so, it suggests that supplementing with spirulina should have no effect. So I'd like to hear more about trials of using spirulina and any other blue/green supplement and why you think it did or did not work.


----------



## Dancing frogs

Is that to say (about the green being structural), that a frog will be just as green whether it grows up on spirulina or fed eggs (imitator for instance)? Or does it mean that if the animal grows up without proper diet, they will never be as green as an animal who had?


----------



## bbrock

Dancing frogs said:


> Is that to say (about the green being structural), that a frog will be just as green whether it grows up on spirulina or fed eggs (imitator for instance)? Or does it mean that if the animal grows up without proper diet, they will never be as green as an animal who had?


The insinuation was that the blue or green is just there regardless of diet. I know in birds these colors tend to be due to the structure of the feather influencing the way they reflect light. But in frogs I wonder if it is a combination. It's pretty clear that we don't have as many color problems with blue and green frogs so there may be something to this. On the other hand, people, including me, have dusted ff with spirulina for auratus and felt like they got better color. In my case I think it may have been as much imagination as anything else.

And then I start wondering about possible combinations. Maybe there are green/blue structural colors that are modified by red/yellow pigment and vice versa.

But back to the red color problem. I still want to try red spider mites.


----------



## Guest

red spider mites now that sounds interesting. anyone know how they get there colour?


----------



## KeroKero

My personal experience with keeping/breeding blue and green frogs isn't much. Looking back on it... its just odd. They've mostly been red, orange, or yellow lol. I need to branch out.

All my imitators morphed out the same bright colores as their parents, not matter the diet. This included green imitators, an orange imitator, and intermedius. Supplimenting didn't change their colors noticibly.

Azureus are blue no matter what you feed them. There are those that are supplimented with something that border on purple, but thats more of an "improvement" (probibly beyond wild type colors) but I don't see the colors as being anywhere near diet dependent like the reds in tricolors and pumilio.

I think there are varying degrees of diet dependency of color. Many tincs don't show yellows or oranges nearly as nice as the WCs, and supplimenting helps, thats somewhere in the middle between truely diet dependent (pumilio and tricolors) and "improvement".

This different could come in how the colors are expressed in the frog's skin. There are a number of chromataphores responsible for color. Melantophores are the obvious black or brown. Xanthrophores (and erythrophores if you want to be picky) generally do the reds and yellows - this is the pigment controlled by carotines in the skin (and influenced by diet). Iridiphores are generally responsible for the blues and greens - the group generally not changed much by diet. So why are there reds, oranges, and yellows that are very diet dependent, and a bunch (mostly thumbnails come to mind) that aren't diet dependent at all?

Iridiphores are actually capable of producing any color on a frog depending on how they reflect light, these are NOT diet dependent colors, and since they can produce any color, we can hypothesize that the non-diet dependent reds and what not are actually iridiphores. Most of these will appear "metallic" looking, like the orange of intermedius and most thumbnails that I've seen up close.

This is actually also something I've noticed with different bloodlines of truncatus. In the multiple lines of yellow truncatus there are the "flat" yellows and the yellows with a more metallic "orangey yellow" (Kelly/Black Jungle line). Due to not having the animals to test my theories, I haven't gotten to play around with diet and color on these guys, but I believe the Kelly line carries more iridiphore coloration, at least in the stripes, (the metallicness seen in the bloodline) than say the Samples bloodline, which has a flat yellow color.

That was a fun little digression, I was thinking about it all through herpetology class today after we talked about amphibian coloration. 

I want you to try the spider mites too, lol. I'm crazy about possible new food items, especially if they are tiny enough to feed to the really small froglets. Aphids would be great too if I had enough frogs to get me to bother keeping them longer than the summer.


----------



## KeroKero

Oh, kinda forgot a bit on the green. Green isn't usually a color produced by the chromataphores, but is usually an interaction between xanthophores and iridiphores (yellow + blue = green). In green auratus you might get a bit of a change in color with supplimenting, but it might only be a little bit because you are only really influincing half the color (in this case the yellow, make it a bit more vibrant). 

Thus the "intermediately" influenced colors are probibly the half iridiophore, half xanthophore colors.


----------



## *GREASER*

I wish I knew a way to produce spider mites. I cant even imagine how red they would turn a tri color! I really need to get a mortar and pestal for my paprika. It just isnt sticking to the ffs enough and I really want to get these guys colored up as soon as I can now that you guys seem to think the longer you wait the less color they will gain from supplementation. Right now thay are over two months old.


----------



## *GREASER*

Hey Kero what school are you going to that you are taking a course in Herpetology? Im thinking about going back to school for biology but I really cant handle any math and all and its really discourageing me from even starting.


----------



## joshua_delancey69

Ok just out of curiostiy where can i get a powder form of peprika/beta carotine/canthoxanthin for reds/yellows it would be interesting to test a couple of these theories on my own.....I like to reasearch with some things and this would be a safe project........thanks


----------



## geckguy

Most grocery stores carry paprika, it is in the spice section. It usually isnt fine enough to stick to flies so I recommend using a mortar/pestle or putting it in a blender to grind it up a little. I have used it on my leucs and they definitely seemed to color up, I havent supplemented with it for awhile and they are almost yellow.


----------



## bbrock

I use to get red spider mites from an entomologist friend who used them as a model for population biology experiments. His culture method was simply to grow a bench full of pea plants under lights and let the mites go to town. All the plants were sickly from the infestation so if a plant died, he just replaced it with a fresh one.

Do a google for tanning supplements and canthoxanthin. You should find sources. Just BE CAREFUL with it because it can be toxic if overdosed. Fish food for color enhancement is a good source for beta carotene as are carrots and sweet potato. You could either gut load crix or dry and grind to make powder.


----------



## joshua_delancey69

Great info Brock


----------



## *GREASER*

Last night I tryed grinding the paprika with a spoon on a plate. It worked perfectly and now it sticks to the flys with no problem. Im going to check the indian store soon and see if they have some of the real deal that is even stronger then the stuff at the market. I wonder if saffron would work better then paprika. I know its very strong but also very expensive. If you arent familiar with saffron it is the stamina from a safron flower. Its used in cooking alot to give things bright red and yellowish colors.


----------



## Guest

GREASER i've always wanted to try saffron but like you said it's so expensive. if you do try please let us know if it works.

Has anybody ever tried tummeric it the most potent(colour wise) spice i've ever seen it stains everything, id be curious too try it. but it's yellow not red.


----------



## TimStout

It was rumored that Perdue colored up their chickens with marigold petals in their diet.


----------



## Guest

This thread is great, I have also been thinking about this subject for a while. I raise Discus also and we use different products to enhance colorations with various products. http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/showt ... hp?t=40937
You might want to look into this product. It is an all natural product and many seem to get good results from it.
SharynB


----------



## Guest

Has anyone tried the Rep-Cal Herptivite with beta carotene. On the container it says it can be used with reptiles and amphibians. So it might work. More info at http://repcal.com/supp.htm#Herptivite
hope this might help some.


----------



## Guest

SharynB, does the NatuRose come in a powder form?

Hexen84, That is one of the suppliments I use to dust my frogs, but it doesn't seem to be the amount needed to color up the red frogs. You need to add more to he diets of the orange and red frogs.

I bought 2 sweet potatos today, and will be drying them and grinding them into a powder. At $.78 per pound it is worth a try.


----------



## KeroKero

Herptivite is the vitamin I use with all my reptiles and amphibians, I don't believe there is enough beta carotine in it to go beyond vitamin A needs, which is what it was designed for. It wasn't designed to have the higher amounts of carotine to enhance color. Its a great vitamin btw.

Trista - Its great to hear some feedback from the fish area, as that group has experiemented with color supplimentation more than the reptile world has. I knew there were a number of fish products out there so its great to see the crossover 

I worry about the astaxanthin as I really don't know anything about it and cantaxanthin is pretty strong stuff (Brent knows more about this). I wonder if it would be best to gutload the feeders or add it to the dusting powder? Possibly add into the tadpole flakes? Use sparingly?

Brent - keep us updated on the sweet potato dust  I was actually thinking of adding it as an ingredient to tadpole flakes, but never actually got around to doing it when I had tadpoles, I have a lot of color fish flakes around to use (betta or rainbow color flakes) and got lazy.


----------



## Guest

I have been looking up the NatuRose and found this site...
http://www.aquafeed.com/article.php?id=584&sectionid=
It said


> After 8 weeks, it was found that all three carotenoids were deposited in the tissues, however groups fed dietary astaxanthin had the highest levels of tissue astaxanthin (16.5 mg/kg body wt.) This result was 23% higher than those fed canthaxanthin and 43% higher than those fed -carotene.


This site has a little more info on Astaxanthin http://www.astaxanthin.org/astax.htm
I am very interested in this as a suppliment additive, but don't want to kill off frog either!


----------



## bbrock

We need Ed K. on here because he's the nutrition guru. I did a very quick google on astaxanthin and didn't relly find what I was looking for but found that it is pro-vitamin A like other carotinoids including canthaxanthin. Making some really wild assumptions on very little information, I am inclined to be cautious until we know more. It sounds like astaxanthin may be a more potent carotenoid even than canthoxanthin so may have both greater potential to color up animals AND cause vit. A overdose. I believe fish tend to be a very good source of vitamin A which makes me wonder if they can process and tolerate these pro-vitamin A compounds better than amphibians. I think Ed explained why beta-carotene is a safe source of vitamine A which might be helpful in sorting it out. Like Ben, I'd be very interested in this supplement but wouldn't want to blow up any livers.


----------



## Guest

This is very interesting, didn't know if it would be of any help or not, I learn something everyday.
Trista & SharynB


----------



## Ed

Depending on the species (and type) caretenoids can be converted into vitamin A (there are some species that appear to be either unable to efficiently convert caretenoids or are unable to convert them at all (so far this appears to be restricted to a few Bufonids)). The fact that a caretenoid is a provitamin A precursor does not mean that the levels of A will increase (unless there is some underlying other pathology) as the animal will only convert what is necessary. 

As it was explained to me by the nutritionist at work, some of the caretenoids such as astaxanthin and canthaxanthin are not as safe as was once believed as there has been an increasing number of cases of liver disfunction in animals fed these as a color supplement (note not due to vitamin A but due to the caretenoid itself). It appears that, these supplements need to be used in moderation (and still may be a risk due to the small size of the frogs). In addition as I understand it, ingestion of ethanol can increase the risk of hepatotoxic effects with the ingestion of caretenoids (so is the alcohol content of the media an issue?). 

Here is a paper that points out liver lesions in rodents due to canthaxanthin http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/j ... 35je08.htm and this one contians a table listing aplastic anemia from overdosing on them http://www.aafp.org/afp/990301ap/letters.html

Betacarotene to date has been shown to be very nontoxic and general symptoms of overdosing appear to be transitory (orange color of skin and some other tissues). 

Depending on the species of amphibian, there are several different methods by which pigment activity is conducted. If the pigment depends wholly or partially on pterins (purine based) then the amount synthesized is insufficient to meet the "normal" color of the amphibian then the animal may lack the color for the rest of its life regardless of supplementation. 
(If you want to see if the color is the result of pterins or caretenoids, take a dead frog, skin the frog, blend in acetone. The caretenoids will dissolve into the acetone allowing you to see the colors....

I hope this helps, (I don't consider myself a nutrition guru as there is just so much we do not know regarding amphibs.)

Ed


----------



## bbrock

Ed said:


> I hope this helps, (I don't consider myself a nutrition guru as there is just so much we do not know regarding amphibs.)
> 
> Ed


Sorry buddy, you're still the guru. There may be a lot unknown about amphibian nutrition but what is known seems to be in your noggin.

I knew if I threw out enough misinformation and drivel, you wouldn't be able to resist setting the record straight. Thanks for taking the time to clear things up.

Now for more questions. In the acetone blend test, if the color is both carotenoid AND pterin derived, wouldn't the test be inconclusive because it would give possitive results for carotenoids but no indication if pterins are present? Also, if I understand you right, the pterins are either synthesized or sequestered during development but not after development is complete. So any idea at what point pterin pigmentation ceases? Finally, and the question we all want to know. Can pterin be supplemented to enhance color. 

I did a little search on pterin and found one interesting link: http://chemistry.lamar.edu/~martincb/research.html That shows folic acid contains a pterin ring. It would be interesting if frog pigment and spindly leg were linked to the same dietary source.


----------



## bbrock

The bottom half of this page is interesting although Corey pretty much already covered it: http://www.tightrope.it/nicolaus/ponta.htm

This one is interesting as it suggests that multiple types of carotenoids may be needed to fully color an animal http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/li...749.2002.01085.x/abs/;jsessionid=c-vU1BZaF6N-


----------



## bbrock

Another thought. Lycopene found in tomatoes and other fruits and veggies, is a carotenoid that has shown up in some of the searches on pigments. Dried and powdered tomato skins may be a useful supplement for color up red things. I wonder if that's the same stuff color up red bell peppers.


----------



## Guest

I found this guide to be help full.
http://food.naturalhealthperspective.com/carotenes.html


----------



## Ed

snip "Sorry buddy, you're still the guru. There may be a lot unknown about amphibian nutrition but what is known seems to be in your noggin."

I try to keep up on it but a lot of it gets published in things I cannot readily access. 


snip "I knew if I threw out enough misinformation and drivel, you wouldn't be able to resist setting the record straight. Thanks for taking the time to clear things up."

The problem was that I had too much to do at home and work and had taken some time off from the computer (i had something like 250 e-mails after a couple of days). 

snip "Now for more questions. In the acetone blend test, if the color is both carotenoid AND pterin derived, wouldn't the test be inconclusive because it would give possitive results for carotenoids but no indication if pterins are present?"

If you want to check for pterins, blend in ethanol/water. 

snip" Also, if I understand you right, the pterins are either synthesized or sequestered during development but not after development is complete. So any idea at what point pterin pigmentation ceases?"

This is what it sounds like in the little bit of literature I have available. I suspect that it is possible for the animal to synthesize more but the info I have does not read that way. 
Most of the xanthopores can also store caretenoids as wwll as pterins. For example (If I remember correctly), the belly color in Bombina is a result of pterins and caretenoids. (yellow = one of the pterins, the red is due to stored carotenoids (but there are red pterins but not in Bombina).)
Nothing I have gives an indication as to when pterin production ceases. 


snip " Finally, and the question we all want to know. Can pterin be supplemented to enhance color."

Well it is purine based. An increase in the amount of purine in the diet would seem to be warrented to test this idea out. 

snip "I did a little search on pterin and found one interesting link: http://chemistry.lamar.edu/~martincb/research.html That shows folic acid contains a pterin ring. It would be interesting if frog pigment and spindly leg were linked to the same dietary source."

Also not all pterins are colorful. It just seems that anurans contain many of the colorful ones (including the only vertebrate to contain a red pterin (at least that I can find a reference for)). 
In the case of the folic acid, I think that this just an example of a named stable molecular section (serindipity in action) (but that is just my gut feeling and probably should be discounted). 

Ed


----------



## bbrock

Ed said:


> Well it is purine based. An increase in the amount of purine in the diet would seem to be warrented to test this idea out.


Purine is a nucleic acid right? Any idea what food sources would be high in purine? 



> In the case of the folic acid, I think that this just an example of a named stable molecular section (serindipity in action) (but that is just my gut feeling and probably should be discounted).
> 
> Ed


Yea, we wouldn't want anything crazy like a "gut feeling" in this thread! ;-)

Thanks again for the info.


----------



## guyelcamino

I have a breeding pair of tincs, "dwarf french guiana's" there yellow is nice and bright with only vitamin supplimentation and a varied diet. There tads are feed fish flakes and paprika. Somtimes they come out of the water bright and when they don't they brighten up within 2-3 weeks with just fruit flies and vitamine powder. I don't really need to brighten them up. Am I just lucky or am I just feeding them well. I have switched around my vitamins over the years. Fluckers, Reptilcal, and now Dendrocare. My P. aurotaenia look like gold glitter and my sipaliwinis are a bold blue. No color problems in my house.


----------



## bbrock

guyelcamino said:


> I have a breeding pair of tincs, "dwarf french guiana's" there yellow is nice and bright with only vitamin supplimentation and a varied diet. There tads are feed fish flakes and paprika. Somtimes they come out of the water bright and when they don't they brighten up within 2-3 weeks with just fruit flies and vitamine powder. I don't really need to brighten them up. Am I just lucky or am I just feeding them well. I have switched around my vitamins over the years. Fluckers, Reptilcal, and now Dendrocare. My P. aurotaenia look like gold glitter and my sipaliwinis are a bold blue. No color problems in my house.


Just a couple thoughts. One is that if you check your vitamins, I'll bet some of them use beta-carotene as the vitamin A source so you are adding a coloring agent there. The other is that yellow color doesn't seem to be as difficult to obtain through a typical diet. Reds seem to be the most difficult to color properly.


----------



## Rain_Frog

whoa, thanks Brent. I can't believe I missed this one, flat out. I was the one that started this big convention!

Anyway, I don't know much about carotenoids, etc., but I do know the supplement I use a lot is Tree Frog dust by Sandfire dragon ranch. It is great stuff. It contains spirulina and marigold extract. I don't know what is in marigold extract, I could of missed it in one of these posts.

*I will tell you this. I once kept goldfish, and had a lavender colored one. After I switched from flakes to Wardley's goldfish pellets (color enhancing formula), the fish turned mostly an intense orange. *
It's main ingredient was marigold extract.

If the true chemical compound was mentioned under my nose up on further posts, please point this out. I'm sorry, I'm having a bit of difficulty reading it. I know somebody mentioned marigold extract for chickens.
What is canthoxanthin derived from?

Once again, I just hope it isn't too late to see if I can color up my tricolors. They are six months old now. I will ask Sean Stewart tomorrow what he feeds them. Two are a maroon, almost blood red  . While the female is more that bubble gum color.  

Does anybody suspect that red can also be influenced by sunlight? I have wondered that from day one, if full spectrum, intense exposure helps red pigment, like how we process melanin in our skin. 

Ok, I'll look into the carotene supplement at the Natural Food Store near where I work. I went in there to find Flax seed for my hydei, and i can gaurantee that got some natural beta carotene supplement.


----------



## Rain_Frog

Ed K, do you think a lycopene supplement is safe? I don't know if there is such a thing. Time is critical now, can't let my tricolors be ugly forever! Six months already AHH!


----------



## KeroKero

Rain_Frog, relax, this isn't the end of the world!

I'd think the color "cut off" point we were hypothesising about is closer to a year or two for tricolors (I've read that it can take two years before a santa isabel tricolor is at full coloration). Just suppliment with peprika and beta carotene and they will probibly fully color up before they are a year old. Yours sound well on their way (I don't remember if you ever posted pics for us to check out and see what their colors where) so you just have to keep up the regiment. This is a gradual thing that happens over time, and I wouldn't expect a tricolor to be completely colored at this point (my results were not typical and were much more heavily supplimented with sweet potato and peprika than normal, which is why they colored up so fast). You probibly won't even see the gradual chance unless you have pics of them now, and compare them in a couple months (or one day you just go WOW they're red!).

I personally don't think sunlight effects coloration, what I've been reading talks about diet being the main factor. As for the carotene suppliment, you might be spending more money than you need. Peprika is cheaper and works wonders.

As for the DFGs, are you comparing them to their (guessing CB) parents, or their WC ancestors? DFGs, going by pics I've seen and dragged out of people, are colorful even as unsupplimented CB, but the CBs aren't nearly as intense as the WCs. Supplimenting them the same way we've been talking here with tads produces more orange intensity in froglets, and colors closer to WCs (which is the aim of all this supplimenting). I've not seen examples of these supplimented guys grown up and compared to their parents (too recent an experiment for that) but believe that they would be more like the wild type intensity.


----------



## Ed

The supplement we use at work is custom blended and contains lycopene so it appears to be safe. 

This site has a partial list of high purine foods 
http://www.healthcastle.com/gout.shtml


Ed 
Ed Kowalski
South


----------



## bbrock

Rain_Frog said:


> Does anybody suspect that red can also be influenced by sunlight? I have wondered that from day one, if full spectrum, intense exposure helps red pigment, like how we process melanin in our skin.


There was an article on the vivaria projects that suggested adding UV to a pumilio restored color after several sheds. I've used UV on my pumilio for years and can't say it's had the same effect. I suppose there may be an interaction where UV does something to the dermis that makes the underlying pigments appear brighter which would mean that UV could potentially help color up frogs but only if they already had the needed pigments.

I've also noticed temperature influences color in pumilio. Pumilio kept too warm get brownish and dull but after a week at cooler temps, their color is restored.


----------



## bbrock

Ed said:


> The supplement we use at work is custom blended and contains lycopene so it appears to be safe.
> 
> This site has a partial list of high purine foods
> http://www.healthcastle.com/gout.shtml
> 
> 
> Ed
> Ed Kowalski
> South


Custom blended in house? Can you share how it is prepared. Some of us are planning to create our own custom powders and would like to know.

Thanks for the purine link. Can't wait to give my frogs gout.


----------



## Guest

I have a green pum female that was, when I recieved her,a very dark bronze color on her dorsal and kind of a dull green on her sides.
I have been feeding her fruit flies that are cultured with Ed's enhanced formula and it seem to have helped her color improve.
Would making availiable to her UV light help her to bring back her color even more?
Mark


----------



## Ed

Hi Brent,
The formula, which are made by Walkabout Farms, with one for FFs only, and one for pinheads and FFs. As I understand it, they are no longer selling to non-institutions. 

I am interested in hearing about any private mixes. 

Ed


----------



## Rain_Frog

Brent, that is something I've suspected too... but i don't know if it applies to Epipedobates. Many folks keep tricolor at the standard room temperature. While the frogs seem to do fine (my frogs are kept at 78-80 during the day), plenty of folks don't have their bedroom or living room drop into the low sixties at night (then again, I hate to let my room get below 70, i like the warmth :wink

I am moving my tricolors, mantellas, and future Xenopus all in the basement, for a "frog corner." It rarely rises above 74 in the summer, and is around 60-72 in the winter. It'd be great to cycle animals for breeding, if it doesn't do anything for their color.


----------



## Guest

Well I finally have 2 sliced and dried sweet potatoes. Tonight I used a blender and now have a fine dust (it floats in the air very nice) I am going to be doing the same thing with a few other items and mixing them all into one dust. Hopefully I will have results in a few months. Rain_frog since you are about 30 min drive max from me when I get the mix done do you want to try it? I would like to see what this will do for other people too.


----------



## bbrock

Ed said:


> Hi Brent,
> The formula, which are made by Walkabout Farms, with one for FFs only, and one for pinheads and FFs. As I understand it, they are no longer selling to non-institutions.
> 
> I am interested in hearing about any private mixes.
> 
> Ed


Oh, that's a bummer as I was hoping to switch to the Walkabout supplements. I'm not an institution but should be in one. Does that count?

My plan was to do what Ben is already doing. I was going to steam, slice, dry and powder a variety of the fruits and vegetables listed as good sources of various carotinoids on the url Ben posted. I figured I would weight the mix toward the lycopene end of things because tomatos are red right? I figure I'd rather have my pums look like tomatoes than squash.


----------



## Ed

With some of the items, cooking is normally used to increase palatability (such as with carrots and sweet potatos by making them sweeter) and/or to break down the cell walls to increase digestion. This then leads to the question, as you are drying and powdering the items, do you really need to steam them as the drying and powdering should do a good job of breaking down the cell walls and liberating the contents. 
And as a further comment, microwaving items like sweet potatos is faster and easier than trying to steam them. 
With some powdered veggies, caking is a real problem so this may cause problems with a free flowing powder supplement and may be more useful as part of the ff media (or you can also feed it to the invertebrate fauna in the cages). 

Well Brent, I would also be able to get stuff from them under that criteria. 

Just some random thoughts,

Ed


----------



## bbrock

Ed said:


> With some of the items, cooking is normally used to increase palatability (such as with carrots and sweet potatos by making them sweeter) and/or to break down the cell walls to increase digestion. This then leads to the question, as you are drying and powdering the items, do you really need to steam them as the drying and powdering should do a good job of breaking down the cell walls and liberating the contents.
> And as a further comment, microwaving items like sweet potatos is faster and easier than trying to steam them.
> With some powdered veggies, caking is a real problem so this may cause problems with a free flowing powder supplement and may be more useful as part of the ff media (or you can also feed it to the invertebrate fauna in the cages).
> 
> Well Brent, I would also be able to get stuff from them under that criteria.
> 
> Just some random thoughts,
> 
> Ed


Well you caught me. I'm no cook. My plan is actually to give them a little nuke which to me is the same as steaming. Yep, the idea was to break down the cell walls to release the nutrients as I am unfamiliar with how good of a job drying and powdering would do. Thinking about it now, it does make sense that drying alone should lyse all of the cells.

I also wondered about caking. There will be a lot of sugar and starch in the resulting powder so this makes sense it would be a problem. Any additive that could be safely included to solve this?

I was think along the same lines as you that I would use this as a media additive mostly but will also experiment with dusting directly or adding a little to calcium or vitamin powder. I want to avoid supplementing with large spikes of carotenoids and am aiming more at a steady drip of them being made available to the frogs.


----------



## Ed

Well, I'm not sure what would be appropriate for powdered veggies. 
I know that typical anticaking agents include corn starch and/or silca...


Ed


----------



## Rain_Frog

First of all, shouldn't we move this post to the advanced discussion?

i'm incredibly busy Ben, so it's best to just have it shipped to me. LOL, i've spent all my money on frogs, so I don't have a car yet! Depend on my folks. :lol: Sad, isn't it? I'll send you a few bucks your way if you can ship it priority mail. I'll give you my address in PM.

Test it first to see if it sticks. I finally got paprika to stick, but the flies can dust it off pretty quick.

Guys, I'm going to go buy lycopene tablets and mash them up into powder. I'll report back in a few months to tell how my tricolors are doing. I'll be moving them in the basement too, so perhaps the temperature may/ may not have an effect.


----------



## Ed

I had a small thought today. Why is everyone trying to use caretenoids found in plants to increase reds as opposed to those that are contained in crustaceans such as daphnia and gammarus. It is possible to buy freeze dried gammarus, which would then also be easy to powder. 

Ed


----------



## bbrock

More great ideas coming out of this thread. Rainfrog, do you have a source for lycopene tablets? I bought a food dehydrator over the weeend and have it loaded up with the various sources of carotenoids listed on the site that Ben posted. I chose one of the "best sources" listed for each type of carotenoid plus a couple extra that were already withering in the fruit and veggie bins of our fridge. I want to weight the mixe toward lycopene so am in the process of drying 3 cans of tomato paste. Already dried tablets would probably be a smart move depending on price.

Now I'm thinking some daphnia and gammarus are in order. Thanks for the tip Ed.

As for paprika not sticking, I've found that mixing it with a little calcium powder solves the problem. The calcium powder tends to be too sticky anyway, cause white fluff ball flies that can barely walk. Mixing it with a little paprika seems to solve two problems.


----------



## Rain_Frog

I'm not sure, but I'm going to check my local herbal store for lycopene. Ben is going to give me a little mix of his own for me to try.

I will not be able to conduct a full experiment, just a testimonial. I lack a good camera and haven't been able to breed my frogs yet.


----------



## bbrock

Rain_Frog said:


> I'm not sure, but I'm going to check my local herbal store for lycopene. Ben is going to give me a little mix of his own for me to try.
> 
> I will not be able to conduct a full experiment, just a testimonial. I lack a good camera and haven't been able to breed my frogs yet.


I think testimonials will be all that we get but I'll be able to compare frogs fed a supplement from a young age with those reared on typical diet. As an aside, I mentioned earlier that pumilio reared in the large viv with the parents seem to color up better. I just moved a subadult out of the large viv and placed her with an older sibling. Wow! it is shocking how brightly colored the younger frog is. She looks just like a wc while the older sibs reared in smaller vivs are decidedly orange.

I'll be moving the two frogs to a different viv soon and will try to get a side by side pic.


----------



## Rain_Frog

remember that old post I brought up about true meaning of the frogs colors? I still think the dart frog's colors have more to do with territorial and mating issues. They could be coloring up to signal other frogs....but why just their parents?


----------



## bbrock

Rain_Frog said:


> remember that old post I brought up about true meaning of the frogs colors? I still think the dart frog's colors have more to do with territorial and mating issues. They could be coloring up to signal other frogs....but why just their parents?


At least with blue jeans, they morph out a very dark maroon and brighten up later. They are fairly cryptic when they first morph. So I doubt they are signaling parents either. Assuming the colors do play a role in mating and territory as you suggest, the need to acquire the pigments early in development may just be a physiological limitation and not really synchronized with when they need their color. I do think that some of PDF coloration is aposematic warning coloration but I think not all of it is and that just saying that PDF are bright to warn predators of their toxin is over simplification.


----------



## KeroKero

There are evidently a few PDFs that do actually exhibit color change with mood and position within a group, I've heard this reported for Cry. (E.) azurieventris as well as E. bassleri, and possibly others. The majority though, I doubt exhibits this. I've worked with enough reptiles that DO exhibit coloration due to territory and mating issues, and have yet to see this in the dendrobatid species I've actually worked with (this includes the pumilio under debate).

I've always kinda guessed that the more cryptic froglet coloration (dark froglets to ones that just look like mud like tricolor) always kinda went along with the frog building up toxicity. If the variable on this developing is mainly diet, and it make take time to build up, the froglet would, in theory, be coloring up around the same time as it starts to really become distastful (yes, this is sticking with the oversimplification since I don't really have other stuff to base this off of). Or its left over from their more drab ancestors.


----------



## bbrock

KeroKero said:


> I've always kinda guessed that the more cryptic froglet coloration (dark froglets to ones that just look like mud like tricolor) always kinda went along with the frog building up toxicity. If the variable on this developing is mainly diet, and it make take time to build up, the froglet would, in theory, be coloring up around the same time as it starts to really become distastful (yes, this is sticking with the oversimplification since I don't really have other stuff to base this off of). Or its left over from their more drab ancestors.


I think this makes perfect sense. Where I start to have problems with warning color theory is with things like auratus. I've heard in their native habitat they are darn hard to see and their pattern looks like the camo pattern special forces would use for operating in deep forest cover. I remember many years ago dropping a brightly colored red milksnake into the grass of its native habitat and watching it instantly dissapear. Not only did that snake vanish that day but so did my blind faith that all things bright must be warning colors.


----------



## Ed

Well if we continue with the idea about territoriality then the lack of color may indicate that this is a juvenile and not a territorial/hiearchial threat.

Ed


----------



## KeroKero

Brent - The only auratus I've seen in the wild (Costa Rican) really didn't blend in, but I can see how the kahlua & cremes and even the mostly black canal zones would. These guys also seem a lot shier than their more bolding marked relatives. Less toxicity in the wild or maybe more predators that could deal with their noxiousness? Again, can't wrap my mind around any other subject, since I don't know what to wrap it around otherwise :? 

Ed - I gotta give you that one. Froglets not being recognized as adults of their own species would be a good thing when they need to concentrate on eating and growing rather then getting their little butts kicked around the block because the territorial sex of the species is being, well, territorial.


----------



## bbrock

KeroKero said:


> Brent - The only auratus I've seen in the wild (Costa Rican) really didn't blend in, but I can see how the kahlua & cremes and even the mostly black canal zones would. These guys also seem a lot shier than their more bolding marked relatives. Less toxicity in the wild or maybe more predators that could deal with their noxiousness? Again, can't wrap my mind around any other subject, since I don't know what to wrap it around otherwise :?


Interesting. The people who've told be the auratus are cryptic observed them on Barro Colorado Island. Definately in the canal zone. So in CR, are they typically found on a brownish leaf litter background? I would think even the boldly patterned CR auratus would melt away if they got into any green underbrush.


----------



## KeroKero

In my experience with herps I've noticed a general trend of boldness in relation to toxicness/venomousness. Atelopus are hardly secretive, and have been written to walk right up to researchers in the wild in almost "eat me, I dare you" kind of boldness. The more cryptic frogs in Costa Rica (and many cryptic animals I've personally worked with) tend to run/hop/slither like a bat out of hell when discovered.

The Costa Rican auratus and pumilio hardly showed such skiddish traits. They were out and about without much of a care about me... until I tried to grab them for pics. In the particular reserve I was in (the only time I saw auratus oddly enough, thats another story for another time) was well preserved forest with old growth (or VERY old second growth) butress trees and everything, the ideal rainforests we dream of, and read in books. Not enough light got down to the forest floor to allow for much growth, and you could litterally look up and only see pinpricks of blue for the sky. Also not enough light for any of my pictures to turn out :evil: . There was little to no green growth for the auratus to hide in (a struggling seedling of something here and there), and they didn't make much of an attempt to do so. In that situation I would consider is aposematic coloration. I never found them in the greener areas where they'd blend in.

At NAIB they have panama canal zone in with CR or Nicaraguan (don't remember which, but they are pretty much the same in this case) and the difference in behavior is obvious. The CR/Nics are always out and about, often in front, and are the ones most often seen. The canal zones on the other hand can actually be hard to find - if you are looking for them out in the open. They tend to stick to the shadows (wow do they blend in) and are much more secretive and skittish compared to the other morph (I have a hell of a time getting pics of them other than a green dot or two on a black background). Behavior and coloration lead me to believe while they might show beginings or reminents of aposematic coloration, it is not strong at all in this morph. Why this is with them is anyones guess, and we'd have to look at toxicity and predation to begin to shed light on it.


----------



## Rain_Frog

My attempts at finding lycopene was unsuccessful. While I found it, it was over $20 and it was gel caps. I could only use the powder. Same goes for beta carotene. Its not easy to find the old fashioned, powder tablet stuff.

I'm going to try the gut load the maggot thing, as that's what really gets my tricolors interested. the maggots turn bright orange with enough supplement. To get lycopene into them, I'm going to add some mashed tomatoes to the medium.


----------



## bbrock

Rain_Frog said:


> My attempts at finding lycopene was unsuccessful. While I found it, it was over $20 and it was gel caps. I could only use the powder. Same goes for beta carotene. Its not easy to find the old fashioned, powder tablet stuff.
> 
> I'm going to try the gut load the maggot thing, as that's what really gets my tricolors interested. the maggots turn bright orange with enough supplement. To get lycopene into them, I'm going to add some mashed tomatoes to the medium.


I ran into a similar roadblock searching on the web. There is an Israeli company selling a powder called LycoMato which sounds basically like it is powdered tomato extract but it appears to be wholesale only and the only supplier I could find sold it in something like 40 Kg. lots. Wow! That's a lot of tomato. The gel caps may work if they are the capsules that can twist apart and have powder inside (that's how my canthoxanthin comes) but the price is prohibitive. I'll keep chugging away at my stinky dehydrated tomato paste project.


----------



## Rain_Frog

Its the soft gel, with the "herbal essence" inside. You can buy dehydrated tomatoes. I know Ben said he's been grinding dried veggies up in a blender. i don't know how you guys get it that fine. Then again, my blender is a piece of crap. :x 

I found some old, home grown tomatoes that have been frozen in my fridge at least three years. I used to grow a lot to make homemade tomato sauce. Now all I gotta do is thaw them and add it to my fruit fly mix.


----------



## bbrock

The last of the ingredient for my color concoction are almost dry. I bought a coffee grinder to powder the stuff up but that didn't work so today I will exchange the grinder for a blender. But what I'm really posting about is an interesting observation I made. One of my cb pumilio had a bright red speck on its dirty orange back which I thought was just a fleck of something stuck on its skin. But after a few days, it was still there so I took a closer look. This is a tiny patch of just a few grains of the frog's skin (maybe 1/3 the size of a pinhead) that is brightly pigmented. I don't know what to make of it other than it is interesting.

Also, I was thinking of Rainfrog's suggestion about the color making the frogs sexy and putting that with the idea that F1 pumilio don't breed well. Are we just making ugly frogs? I know all too well the impact that being ugly has on one's success in romance. Maybe this lycopene carotenoid powder will be like anuran viagra.


----------



## Guest

Brent,
Back aways you asked about anti-clumping additives. The powder used on chewing gum is the simple mineral marble dust. Just a thought. Availability and pricing, I have no clue.

As for coloring. Doesn't many if not most potential preditors of dart frogs see colors into the lower and/or upper wavelengths then us humans, meaning that their coloring for defensive purposes aren't targeted toward us?


----------



## Ed

Other than some insects, lizards, frogs, birds and primates, most predators see in black and white (if I remember correctly). Lizards, and birds (there is strong evidence for this in frogs) can see reflected UVA and will often respond more strongly to the reflected UVA pattern (usually in territorial and breeding) than a nonUVA pattern reflection. 

Ed


----------



## bbrock

Well I've successfully created a carotenoid rich powder. The ingredients include:

12 oz. tomato paste (2 cans)
1 Papaya
2 Oranges
1 Kiwi
1 large Yam
1 bunch Kale
1 large carrot

I still have another can of tomato paste, more carrots, and a small bunch of red grapes in the dehydrator that I'll add later. The oranges, kiwi, and grapes were added only because we had some shriveling up in the fridge. The rest were chosen because they were listed as best sources for each of the major carotenoid groups on the site Ben posted. All ingredients were dried to a crisp in a food dehydrater and blended to form a powder. The powder is very dry and fluffy so hopefully clumping will not be a problem.

I dusted a few flies with the powder last night and fed them to frogs. This morning my pumilio were so bright red I needed sunglasses to look at them. Okay, that's obviously a lie but we'll see what happens over time.


----------



## Rain_Frog

Anybody tried tumeric? It's a lot finer than paprika I believe. I don't know if its safe though. Safety should always be priority. Keep in mind that many of spices/ herbs could potentially cause problems with the GI tract of frogs. Just a thought.


----------



## Guest

anybody heard of Cochineal, apparently a insect "Cochineal is a traditional red dye of pre-Hispanic Mexico. This precious dyestuff was obtained not from a plant, but from an insect that lives its life sucking on a plant. The host plants are the flattened stems (pads or cladodes) of certain prickly pear cacti (platyopuntias, Opuntia), especially the species called nopales" extract from http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/botany ... Cochineal/

anyone know if darts will eat it.

oddly enough i stumbled on it while eating a yogourt, it's natural colorant was cochineal extract.


----------



## bbrock

Cochineal seems like they would be an excellent idea if the darts would eat them. There is also a seed pod that I forget the name that is the source of the brilliant red body paint used by Amazonian people.

Also, does anyone know the active component of paprika as a coloring agent? Is it just another source of beta carotene? After Corey started this thread which prompted me to do a little more research on skin pigmentation, I'm believing that it is the variety rather than the quantity of carotenoids and other pigment sources that is missing in our frogs.


----------



## Guest

The cochineal colorant sounds interesting. I used to live in Texas and there are fire ants there that are a kind of burnt orange color. I wonder if you could somehow catch some of those, grind them up and feed them to darts. I wonder if maybe the orange color that is in them might be closer to the orange color that they eat in the wild. Just a thought.
Neal


----------



## Dancing frogs

bbrock said:


> After Corey started this thread which prompted me to do a little more research on skin pigmentation, I'm believing that it is the variety rather than the quantity of carotenoids and other pigment sources that is missing in our frogs.


Excellent point, I've noticed that with my golden mantellas, which seem to vary in color day by day, brighten up considerably when fed something new. I first noticed this when I got short on FF's, and ordered a order of pinhead crix. They react similarly when given a treat of CFB larvae, waxworms, termites or springtails.
It also seems that if I skip a couple of days of vitamin and calcium here and there, they stay a little brighter.


----------



## bbrock

nealhorn said:


> The cochineal colorant sounds interesting. I used to live in Texas and there are fire ants there that are a kind of burnt orange color. I wonder if you could somehow catch some of those, grind them up and feed them to darts. I wonder if maybe the orange color that is in them might be closer to the orange color that they eat in the wild. Just a thought.
> Neal


Of course when you mention fire ants, most people freak out. But a couple years ago someone on frognet posted about frogs actually eating them. Of course other people freaked out but not me. I think if you were very careful about how, and how much you feed, anything is fair game. Grinding up the ants as a supplement is an interesting idea worth pursuing but if the ants could be collected and offered safely to both you and your frogs, that might be another route.


----------



## Ed

Okay,
In a little bit of my spare time I have been digging into tadpole morphology and skin color. It appears that in most tadpoles, there is a decided lack of xanthopores in the skin, so then the question becomes, do tadpoles store cartenoids and where do they store them if the typical storage cell is not present. 

I agree with Brent that the problem is more likely to be the lack of variety of the carotenoids fed. 

Ed


----------



## bbrock

Ed said:


> Okay,
> In a little bit of my spare time I have been digging into tadpole morphology and skin color. It appears that in most tadpoles, there is a decided lack of xanthopores in the skin, so then the question becomes, do tadpoles store cartenoids and where do they store them if the typical storage cell is not present.
> 
> I agree with Brent that the problem is more likely to be the lack of variety of the carotenoids fed.
> 
> Ed


I did some reading on carotenoid absorption in humans which said these are readilty stored in fat with the implication being that you didn't have to take a daily pill of beta carotene or lycopene to achieve therapeutic blood serum levels. So getting back to tadpoles. They have that big fat storage organ we call a tail which is resorbed right around the time they are developing adult coloration. Very interesting to ponder.

The more I think about the variety hypothesis, the more I like it. In the past we have tended to simply supplement with carotene (usually beta-carotene) and figured we had suppled what we could to enhance color. And then we have monkeyed with ways to get more of that color enhancing carotene to the animals. It just makes sense that it is something as simple as the old varied diet routine again.


----------



## Marty

Great post. Can't believe I didn't see it. While all the talks and debates are going on, I've been concurently figuring this stuff out myself. have a friend of mine from work, a chemistry professor doing some favours for me. I work at a University in a Chemistry dept, so I'm friends with all types of chemists :lol: 

I know everyone is using paprika to enhance their frogs, but I thought to myself that frogs don't eat paprika, so why would they have to consume all the junk that's present in paprika if we are really only after the carotenoids. I had my friend extract just the carotenoids from paprika!!! The result was an oily liquid that was almost brown. The colour was extremely concentrated. The yield was just under 10% of the original paprika. I was concerned, because he used a solvent to extract the pigments, I was afraid that the solvent might still be present in the final product, so I had my other friend who's running our NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) facility, run it through the 500Mhz NMR ($750K instrument). There was no solvent present in the sample, meaning I had a concentrated extract of paprika that was very intense in colour. 

Next week, we will be extracting the pigments from 1kg of paprika, so hopefully I'll end up with about 80g of the final concentrated product. I will then mix it with vitamins and have a nice supplement. I'll keep you guys posted on how it goes... It takes a very long time to remove all the solvent, so the NMR comes clean. The final product will probably have to sit for a week under a vacuum pump to remove the last traces.

btw, the other 90% leftover paprika "pulp" was very sandy in colour and had no red in it whatsoever...


----------



## bbrock

Marty, this is very interesting stuff. Do you have the ability to analyze the extract to see which carotenoids are present and in what proportion? I would be very curious to know this.


----------



## Marty

The two main carotinoids that are responsible for the red colour in paprika are capsanthin and capsorubin. If I remember correctly the capsanthin comprised 60% of the final oleoresin that was produced. The 2nd one was much less.

here are the structures if anyone is interested



















These two compounds are sensitive to light and if exposed the carbon to carbon double bonds in the long chains will start to break and will start reducing the intensity of the red colour. That's why if you place paprika in the sun for a long time it will start to fade.

I was thinking to sell vials of the stuff or of the vitamin mix to pay for the numerous lunches I had to buy my chemist friends :lol: 

I'm a computer guy, I hate chemistry with passion, but....anything for the frogs..hehe










bbrock said:


> Marty, this is very interesting stuff. Do you have the ability to analyze the extract to see which carotenoids are present and in what proportion? I would be very curious to know this.


----------



## Rain_Frog

Brent, you mean a large variety in diet again produces lots of color?

I have noticed that my tricolors like springtails. I keep noticing that white insects (especially dusted with supplement) attract the frogs like no other food. I've been feeding my springtails paprika which they've been multiplying pretty rapidly. I'm also finding reddish mites in there too! :shock:


----------



## bbrock

Rain_Frog said:


> Brent, you mean a large variety in diet again produces lots of color?


Well I don't know yet. My hunch that I'm working on is that if a variety of carotenes are provided, then the frogs will use those carotenes that produce the color that is "right" for their species or population. We have been discussing this on frognet the past few days as well and Ed K. plays a good devil's advocate and throwing out alternative hypotheses. If his lamo (just kidding) alternatives are right, then my hard earned powdered either won't work or was a waste of time.

Also, for non frognetters, I put a new page on my site discussing the color, with pictures, of the pumilio I've raised. You can find it under the information section of: http://www.bbrock.frognet.org


----------



## Ed

What do you expect from a yahoo? 

But seriously, how else are we going to figure out what is going on with them without looking at all of the lamo possibilities. 

In reality the only difference I would try with the supplement Brent would be to include a member of the crustacea (to simulate arthropod consumption) such as gammarus or daphinia for a supply of astaxanthin. 

Ed


----------



## bbrock

Ed said:


> In reality the only difference I would try with the supplement Brent would be to include a member of the crustacea (to simulate arthropod consumption) such as gammarus or daphinia for a supply of astaxanthin.
> 
> Ed


That's actually on the list of things to add. I also plan to buy some powdered tomato to spike the lycopene portion up a bit because 3 12 oz. cans of tomato paste doesn't make a lot of powder. Do both daphnia and gammarus contain astaxanthin? I thought about adding some powdered dehydrated liver or kidney to boost the purines but think that might be pushing the shelf life of the product.

Your lamo ideas are always a welcome compliment to my half baked ones.


----------



## Ed

As I understand it, yes they both contain it. 

Here is a paper listing the carotenoid content in two species of gammarus. 

http://www.georgealozano.com/papers/Gaillard2004.pdf


I am glad my lamo ideas have some value. 

Ed


----------



## KeroKero

awesome page brent, nice to get some pics to show the differences. The one froglet looks almost yellow! If you didn't know better, you almost wouldn't call it a blue jeans...

Now I'm itching to get my hands back on some tricolors to test out these various theories on them. Grrrrr.


----------

