# Frog Safe Fertilizers for use in plant grow-out (not in the viv!)



## mpedersen (Jun 30, 2014)

Post after post asked, and answered, about using fertilizers in the vivarium, which of course most often folks are saying "no need". But what about before the plants hit the viv, or if you're growing out cuttings? What do you all use, what's safe, what do you avoid, why?


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## alsofaac (Aug 21, 2013)

As far as rooting cuttings, I use 'Rootone', a rooting hormone. My plants in vivaria seem to grow well without added fertilizer. If you insist, you probably can use small amounts of slow release pellets like 'Osmacote'.


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## dmb5245 (Feb 7, 2014)

A soil mix with perlite/vermiculite would help with starting cuttings. I wouldn't want it in a viv, but you'll be washing and bleaching before your plants hit their final home anyways.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Alternately, what if you set up your viv months before your frogs go in? 

I used to be one of the people that said fertilizers have no business in a viv, but I've since changed my mind. My orchids have been growing into my Viv for a year now. There are still no frogs. My Viv was set up using things to do not decompose quickly, like ghost wood, cork bark, sphagnum Moss, tree fern fiber, and a very nutrient-poor, calcium bearing clay substrate. I do have Leaf litter, but that's on the floor. 95% of my plants are on the walls. For my first year, my plants would have seen virtually no fertilizer at all. They would all be quite dead. Instead, they are thriving, as I've chosen to fertilize.

Well you guys know I like natural. In nature, my frogs would never be exposed to rooting hormone powders or gels. Do I know them to be bad for our frogs? No, I don't, but it concerns me. I wouldn't want to use rooting hormones without doing some research. Besides, while rooting hormones do have their place, if you require rooting hormones, to grow rainforest plants in humid conditions, you're doing something wrong. They just shouldn't be necessary in these circumstances.
At the suggestion of Jason Elam, who I trust and look to for plant advice, I settled upon A dilute application of Alaska brand fish fertilizer / emulsion. I use 1/8 to 1/4 strength, once every week or two. I was using more at first, and while I saw no ill-effects, I actually noticed increased growth when I got lazy, and didn't fertilize for a few weeks. At that point I cut back to once a week or two. I don't believe it to be a coincidence that so many plants are showing new growth all of a sudden.
I don't bother fertilizing the floor of my viv. I have so many plants on my walls, that I let the runoff fertilize the floor. Plus of course, the floor has Leaf litter breaking down and adding some nutrients, as well as isopods and springtails working hard to fertilize the tank.

You may wish to mix it outside, as it stinks to high heaven in its concentrated form. It doesn't bother me so much once it's diluted. After spraying, the slight odor seems to clear up pretty quickly. Discard anything premixed after 24 hours. The fresher you mix it, the better the ph will be when you use it. I forget if it raises or lowers the ph, but the ph will be quite different in 24 hours, and way off in 48 hours. Plus, of course, bacteria will continue to make the smell worse if you use old spray.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

dmb5245 said:


> A soil mix with perlite/vermiculite would help with starting cuttings. I wouldn't want it in a viv, but you'll be washing and bleaching before your plants hit their final home anyways.


I prefer to clean and bleach my plants immediately, then they go into a clean plant holding system. When I start building, my plants can then be put directly in my vivs. I rarely put an entire plant in a viv. I like to use small portions, and let them grow in. To me, this looks much more jungle-like, and less like a garden. It looks grown in, rather than put together. By pre washing/bleaching, I end up with storage tanks full of unused plant portions...ready to go any time you set up a new viv. You are right, perlite and vermiculite have no business in vivariums. If I recall correctly, Ed could cite documented deaths of zoo animals from various zoos, due to ingestion of said particles.


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## SirGunther (Jun 4, 2014)

Pumilo said:


> Alternately, what if you set up your viv months before your frogs go in?
> 
> I used to be one of the people that said fertilizers have no business in a viv, but I've since changed my mind. My orchids have been growing into my Viv for a year now. There are still no frogs. My Viv was set up using things to do not decompose quickly, like ghost wood, cork bark, sphagnum Moss, tree fern fiber, and a very nutrient-poor, calcium bearing clay substrate. I do have Leaf litter, but that's on the floor. 95% of my plants are on the walls. For my first year, my plants would have seen virtually no fertilizer at all. They would all be quite dead. Instead, they are thriving, as I've chosen to fertilize.
> 
> ...


How soon before adding frogs do you back off this regimen, or do you? I have a viv that won't see frogs for at least three months, and this seems like a good way to maximize the growth while I'm waiting. 

One other question, do you fertilize broms the same way, or just your orchids and other epiphytes? It seems like it has potential to make the brom water very gross.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Pumilo said:


> Alternately, what if you set up your viv months before your frogs go in?
> 
> I used to be one of the people that said fertilizers have no business in a viv, but I've since changed my mind. My orchids have been growing into my Viv for a year now. There are still no frogs. My Viv was set up using things to do not decompose quickly, like ghost wood, cork bark, sphagnum Moss, tree fern fiber, and a very nutrient-poor, calcium bearing clay substrate. I do have Leaf litter, but that's on the floor. 95% of my plants are on the walls. For my first year, my plants would have seen virtually no fertilizer at all. They would all be quite dead. Instead, they are thriving, as I've chosen to fertilize.
> 
> ...


Quality post. Thanks a lot. I was looking for something to use in a 40b and was thinking about diluting fish tank water with ro. Much better option and I can use it on house plants etc.

I'm assuming this is the stuff
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Alaska-F...75035&wl11=online&wl12=17757316&wl13=&veh=sem


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## mpedersen (Jun 30, 2014)

Thanks for all the great responses so far. My thought here is really more about plant production where the ultimate destination is a vivarium, but it's being grown out under lights, plant holding system, greenhouse, what have you. It seems most of the mainstream plants are being done by commercial growers with mainstream audiences where pesticides and fertilizers, along with traditional plant mixes that would include things like perlite, are the norm. Having spoken with a few commercial growers who produce plants including the types you'd see used in our vivs, ferts are normal, but none that I spoke to used pesticides in a prophylactic manner (while back in the day, when I was growing orchids, I knew at least two greenhouse growers that routinely bombed their places monthly).

But thinking ahead, I'm really just trying to think about the ways things could be done better on a small scale. Eg. I've already started up multiple trays of Begonia leaf cuttings, and yes, using standard off the shelf rooting hormones to get those leaf cuttings going, heavy on the perilite in the grow out setup...but I know all those things will be removed when it comes time to finally go into a viv (IF that's the destination...I don't think all my plants might end up in vivs of course). I had come across the fish emulsion recommendation before, I think by you Pumilo, and probably others, and I know Dyna Grow got thrown around on more than one occasion as well. Even full strength Fish Emulsion is a far cry from weekly applications of 20-20-20 that some commercial growers are doing for general production, but on the flipside, a 6-month time to market might be far too long on something like a Begonia if it could be halved or more by the appropriate cultivation protocols.


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## amac (May 9, 2018)

Great info and discussion on this thread! I am currently building a terrarium that will be frogless for at least two years, so how best to go about fertilization has been on my mind. 




Pumilo said:


> ...I settled upon A dilute application of Alaska brand fish fertilizer / emulsion. I use 1/8 to 1/4 strength, once every week or two. I was using more at first, and while I saw no ill-effects, I actually noticed increased growth when I got lazy, and didn't fertilize for a few weeks. At that point I cut back to once a week or two. I don't believe it to be a coincidence that so many plants are showing new growth all of a sudden.


Just for clarification, Pumilo (or anyone else who may know/understand), was the increased growth after cutting back on applications due to initial over-fertilization? Is there a loading period with fertilizer and eventually you back off? I don't know much about growing plants, and this is my first adventure into growing epiphytes. Thanks!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

SirGunther said:


> How soon before adding frogs do you back off this regimen, or do you? I have a viv that won't see frogs for at least three months, and this seems like a good way to maximize the growth while I'm waiting.
> 
> One other question, do you fertilize broms the same way, or just your orchids and other epiphytes? It seems like it has potential to make the brom water very gross.


Fertilizing orchids in a frog viv was a concern I took to Ed. He believes I'll be ok if I keep it dilute, do it once or twice a month, and take some care not to be blasting the frogs directly all the time. Obviously, if we choose to take this risk, it is wisest to do it with a fully organic supplement. Alaska is OMRI certified to be 100% organic.
When I fertilize with a hand hand, one gallon pressure sprayer, It's pretty simple to avoid the broms. I do not deliberately fertilize my broms. All other epis do get fertilized as long as I'm at it.



S2G said:


> Quality post. Thanks a lot. I was looking for something to use in a 40b and was thinking about diluting fish tank water with ro. Much better option and I can use it on house plants etc.
> 
> I'm assuming this is the stuff
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Alaska-F...75035&wl11=online&wl12=17757316&wl13=&veh=sem


Yes, that's the stuff.



amac said:


> Great info and discussion on this thread! I am currently building a terrarium that will be frogless for at least two years, so how best to go about fertilization has been on my mind.
> 
> Just for clarification, Pumilo (or anyone else who may know/understand), was the increased growth after cutting back on applications due to initial over-fertilization? Is there a loading period with fertilizer and eventually you back off? I don't know much about growing plants, and this is my first adventure into growing epiphytes. Thanks!


My observations regarding the possible over-fertilization, are purely observational. I did not notice any burned leaf edges, the way I'd see on tomato plants out in the garden. I did notice any orchids changing colors in any unusual fashion. I simply had a lazy month and didn't fertilize. It could be coincidental that so many orchids showed an increase in growth then, but I don't think so. I'm now fertilizing once every week or two. Growth rates are good...better than when I fertilized a couple times a week.


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## amac (May 9, 2018)

Thanks for the clarification!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

One statement I'd like to make for the orchid keepers. Orchids are highly dependent upon their associated mycorrhizae that colonize their roots. In fact, it's been written that at least some types of orchid seeds can not properly germinate and grow without it. 
When you do your bleach treatment, you kill the mycorrhizae. Yes, over time, it will recolonize itself. Personally, I like to assist them, by adding a mycorrhizal inoculant, It gives them their associated fungi and beneficial bacteria back quicker.
Just mix a pinch in a misting bottle, and spray down your whole viv, leaves, root zones, and all. It is beneficial to all plants.

Again, is it necessary for success? No, but if just spent $200 on orchids, why not spend a few bucks more for a head start?


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## amac (May 9, 2018)

Pumilo said:


> ...I like to assist them, by adding a mycorrhizal inoculant, It gives them their associated fungi and beneficial bacteria back quicker.
> Just mix a pinch in a misting bottle, and spray down your whole viv, leaves, root zones, and all. It is beneficial to all plants.


Any recommendations on where to get the inoculant? There are quite a few options online.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

amac said:


> Any recommendations on where to get the inoculant? There are quite a few options online.


From what I've read, orchids are pickier about which species of mycos work best for that particular orchid. The more species of mycos in your viv, the better, as different species may do better or worse in your particular viv. To me, that means as complete a mycorrhizal inoculant as you can find, and there are big differences. Some brands only contain one or two species.

Great White contains 32 different beneficial species. It's available in a $5 sample size pack. A little goes a loooong ways. 1/16 to 1/8 teaspoon should do up to about a 40 gallon viv. Don't worry about overdosing. That is not possible, as it is not a fertilizer or supplement. It's simply live, dormant, fungi and beneficial bacteria. 

Plant Success Soluble, and Plant Success Organics Soluble, are also excellent choices. They are available in a $3 size.

In any case, you always buy dry. We've already discussed that it is a live product. As a powder, or granule, it is dormant, and long lasting. As a liquid, it begins dying at the factory, when the cap goes on. Not only are dry forms much longer lasting, they are generally cheaper, for a more concentrated product.

As far as where to get it, my source won't help you. I'm in Colorado. There are hydroponics stores every other block. There are hundreds, probably thousands of pounds of mycorrhizal inoculant within a 10 mile radius of wherever you stand in Denver.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Time out.

I am a huge believer in keeping things simple, and safe.

1) Do *not* use Rootone. It is a fungicide and highly toxic. I only use it for houseplants (never vivarium plants or anything one might eat).

2) Personally, I do not bleach, I am just not that concerned. I fear it can cause shock, as well as kill beneficial organisms. I acquire from good sources and give thorough rinses in warm water.

3) Fertilizers with ammonia based nitrogen are safer than those with urea, for animals as well as epiphytes. Some zoos and other exhibitors use Dynagro and/or Dynabloom. I do, and my guys are quite healthy. 

Hope this helps.


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

Again, here in Colorado there is a plethora of grow shops with all sorts of rooting gels and compounds. I'm not sure why indoor gardening is so popular here, but I'm glad it is: huge bags of expanded clay pellets (LECA) are incredibly cheap because of it.
Every single rooting product bears a warning: Not to be used for food stuffs. Even the ones that contain nothing but hormones have the label. I'm not certain as to why, but I bet it has to do with the equivalent of steroid dosing on the plants. It has been said, but I'll mention it again: with the soil mixtures and high humidity of a vivarium no additives are needed to promote rooting.
I checked out the species list on Great White and it looks pretty awesome. But I would suggest: do not pour it outside, especially in Colorado, or anywhere basically. There is a reason it can't be shipped to Hawaii, and that reason is invasive species. Our forested ecosystems are pretty stressed and highly dependant on the interactions of native plants and fungi. A novel species can (and has) wreak havoc on those ancient interactions. I guess it's less of a concern in the city where there are scant native systems left, but I wanted to get that information out there. It is the simple, seemingly harmless things that have damaged our forests and grasslands so much.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Ravage said:


> I'm not sure why indoor gardening is so popular here, but I'm glad it is...


Pretty sure I know why "indoor gardening" is so popular here, Jeff.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

I was going to say the same thing... 



Encyclia said:


> Pretty sure I know why "indoor gardening" is so popular here, Jeff.


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## amac (May 9, 2018)

Ravage said:


> I checked out the species list on Great White and it looks pretty awesome. But I would suggest: do not pour it outside, especially in Colorado, or anywhere basically. There is a reason it can't be shipped to Hawaii, and that reason is invasive species. Our forested ecosystems are pretty stressed and highly dependant on the interactions of native plants and fungi. A novel species can (and has) wreak havoc on those ancient interactions.


This is a great point that needs to be emphasized.


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## Matty1c3 (Jul 10, 2018)

Pumilio, 

I am in the process of switching out my vivs to the calcium clay recipe you guys recommended(2 down, 4 to go). Are there certain plants you are having better success with since the substrate is pretty nutrient deficient? Anything to avoid? I have a couple unoccupied vivs at the moment that are plants only so I may try this diluted fertilizer bi-monthly for a while. I followed the clay recipe only substituting the inoculant out for the great white brand. 

Thanks!


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

Has anyone used seaweed extracts as their viv fertilizer?


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Fish tank water is great fertilizer for vivs. You have to be mindful of what you've been adding to the tank, but if it's nothing but dechlorinator and fish food it won't hurt the frogs. Depending on the TDS of the aquarium water and what plants you're spraying it on, diluting it may be a good idea. I like to use water from my fairy shrimp tanks- it's distilled water with a small amount of calcium and other nutrients for the shrimp exoskeletons, plus the waste that the shrimp add in. Low TDS and happy plants.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I have used earth worm castings in vivariums here and there.


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