# Clown Tree Frogs Declining



## Teratolagnia (Jun 13, 2016)

Hey everyone, I seriously need some help as I'm not sure where I went wrong.

A month ago I bought 2 male and 1 female clown tree frogs from a local reptile store. Here was their setup

-20 gallon long tank
-Sphagnum moss bottom. Water dish. Flukers vine with leaves and plastic mandarin plant
-temperatures in the high 70's - low 80's during the day. mid-low 70's at night
-Humidity at 75-80%. Letting it fog to 99% for about a minute and then dissipate.
-Feeding small crickets every other day dusted with tetrafauna calcium

The frogs were pooping and seemed very active at night from what I could see. About a week and a half ago I switched them to a new enclosure.

-Used so I disinfected it.
-20 gallon tall. 
-Hydroballs bottom, mesh layer, eco earth, sphagnum moss. Water dish flush with substrate.
-temperatures in the high 70's - low 80's during the day. mid-low 70's at night
-Humidity at 75-80%. Letting it fog to 99% for about a minute and then dissipate.
-Feeding small crickets every other day dusted with tetrafauna calcium

Just recently (a few days ago) I see them hanging out in the moss at the bottom of the enclosure when I leave for work in the morning at 8, but they're normally hiding elsewhere when I get home in the evening. My female was very active and always hiding at the top of the tank, but now she's been at the bottom of the tank for the past two days and today she isn't moving at all. She won't pull her legs back up to her body and I believe she's passed. 

Is it the stress from moving the tank? Possible toxicity from something? I only use distilled water with them. She was quite thin so is she not eating right? I let the crickets loose in the enclosure as that's how their tank was at the store, but should I use a feeding dish? Please advise, I don't want to lose my boys.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I don't have time for a lengthy response at the moment, but look up distilled water.
Living things should not consume or soak in it.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Blueper said:


> I don't have time for a lengthy response at the moment, but look up distilled water.
> Living things should not consume or soak in it.


This is not true. There is a great discussion here about it:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Many of the clown tree frogs available to the hobby are from wild caught imports and as a result they can have a number of issues show up due to the stress of the entire process. This means that anyone who is giving you a definitive diagnosis without a necropsy and some tests on the frogs is just guessing at best. 

I would suggest contacting a vet and getting fecals done on the frogs (which if positive will probably require you to discard the hardscape in your tank and starting over with those materials), and I would suggest getting them tested for chytridmycosis. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Teratolagnia (Jun 13, 2016)

I use bottled and distilled (bottled when distilled is not available) as that was what I was instructed to use from the store. I have no problem switching to bottled exclusively, but I hadn't been aware that there was a possible issue with it. Reading the report Ed posted, I think I might just keep on using both however.

I will contact a vet ASAP and hopefully I can get in an appointment with them for the fecals. I've been keeping my females body in the fridge, but she's already quite far gone and I don't know if it will do much good at this point :/

Checking in on my males, they seem plump (well one, the other appears normal) and active still, so I'm hoping that perhaps it was an isolated incident with her. I'll still be keeping a close eye on them and hoping for the best.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

carola1155 said:


> This is not true. There is a great discussion here about it:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html


From that thread:
"_In those the studies were run for a longer period and it demonstrated that yes those ions were lost to the solution but the amphibians also were able to actively reabsorb those ions back from solution. The loss is basically energetic *unless the amphibian has something compromising the ability to osmoregulate* such as septecimias or chytridmycosis. *So as long as the amphibian is healthy it is in reality fine to use* and you can get away from those calcium stains._"

That's basically what I get out of it. It's fine to use, as long as everything is perfect. Lots of stuff is fine to use, so long as everything is perfect and healthy. But if a frog has certain issues, it can make them worse. 
In short, I just learned that an amphibian can re-absorb ions that it loses to the water,......unlike most other living things. That's pretty cool.
However, if the frog has certain illnesses, it can't, compounding the illness.
So, since other options for water are acceptable, I think I'll just continue to not use it. I don't think _not_ using it is hurting anything. And apparently, using it doesn't hurt anything either. So long as the frogs are healthy and able to reclaim whatever they lose while soaking in it. So, I retract my suggestion of never letting living things consume or soak in it. Amphibians seem to be the exception.
However, it seems like the biggest concern, when it comes to distilled water, are mineral deposits on glass and misting heads.
Since I mist by hand in my relatively small tank and can easily wipe the glass down, I definitely have no use for distilled water. I know the point was that it doesn't hurt the frogs. My point now, is that it doesn't seem to benefit them either. Seems more a benefit for misting.
Am I correct?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blueper said:


> From that thread:
> 
> That's basically what I get out of it. It's fine to use, as long as everything is perfect. Lots of stuff is fine to use, so long as everything is perfect and healthy. But if a frog has certain issues, it can make them worse.


Actually to walk away from that write up with this understanding is an indication that you missed the theme throughout the entire write-up. 

The point to the write-up is that compared to the tissues of the amphibian, RO/DI, spring water, tap water, stream water etc are all going to cause the loss of ions to the solution on the same scale. An animal that is going to have issues in DI/RO is going to have those same issues in tap, stream, lake etc water ... this is also before we consider the fact that frogs can uptake ions from moist substrates via the drinking patch (which is an argument on why many of the typical ABG style substrates are not optimal when it comes to the frogs). 

some comments 

Ed


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Yeah, didn't miss the theme. I saw all those comments and understood it just fine.
Without over complicating or being condescending, my simple point was:
I thought distilled water was a bad idea to use for or on living things.
Turns out, it doesn't hurt the frogs because they can reclaim whatever they lose, from either the water itself, or possibly the substrate, etc., to put it simply. Am I getting the gist of it so far? (Trying to keep it simple and in lay terms. It's easier for me) 
From what I've gathered so far, not just from this thread, but on this site in general, is that the main reason people want to use distilled water, is to protect their misting heads and glass from mineral deposits. And the main concern would be: will the distilled water hurt the frogs?
Clearly, as you've said, it's not harmful to the frogs. 
Is that a fair and simple observation of the distilled water topic, in general?
This all stems from me saying not to use distilled water. I read the thread that was linked and retracted that. I stand corrected. It's ok to use it with frogs. I understood everything you posted. 
Moving on: I said, it doesn't hurt the frogs. But there's not really a reason to use it or a benefit to using it, other than reducing mineral deposits. 
As far as the frogs are concerned, it doesn't hurt, but there's no benefit either. Correct?
There was a question mark at the end of my last post.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blueper said:


> Yeah, didn't miss the theme. I saw all those comments and understood it just fine.
> Without over complicating or being condescending, my simple point was:


My apologies, I was giving you the benefit of doubt in that you didn't understand it. Instead you must have deliberately presented the information in an attempt to misrepresent it as the following is exactly what you wrote and emphasized. 



Blueper said:


> From that thread:
> "In those the studies were run for a longer period and it demonstrated that yes those ions were lost to the solution but the amphibians also were able to actively reabsorb those ions back from solution. The loss is basically energetic unless the amphibian has something compromising the ability to osmoregulate such as septecimias or chytridmycosis. So as long as the amphibian is healthy it is in reality fine to use and you can get away from those calcium stains."
> 
> That's basically what I get out of it. It's fine to use, as long as everything is perfect. Lots of stuff is fine to use, so long as everything is perfect and healthy. But if a frog has certain issues, it can make them worse.


You made sure to emphasize out of context that there is a risk to RO/DI water usage and then reemphasized it with your own statements. Since you then made the claim that you understood it and made that clear later in your post is contradictory with the manner you started out your post. Nice attempt to put the blame on me by claiming I'm insulting you, when you were (inferred by your own words) deliberately misrepresenting the information at the beginning of that post. 

And as for your question, it was answered in the article with some minor caveats so you should have gotten your answer there, since you've gone out of the way to misrepresent the information I'll let you find out the potential caveats on your own. 

some comments 

Ed


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