# need help picking good from bad



## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

These are vent eggs that i found about 3 days ago in a brom axial.

I know the white one is bad but what is up with the black one with the little round thing attached to it. it looks kinda like the egg broke. Its been like that ever sense discovery.

Do the others look good? I'm cooking up some tad tea "oak leafs and distilled water".


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm thinking the white is definitely trashed but the rest look good.


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

but whats up with the smaller black bubble attached to one of the eggs.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Yeah I saw that guy too. I really don't know man. I'd say err on the side of caution.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Adamrl018 said:


> but whats up with the smaller black bubble attached to one of the eggs.


Might be a tad that was fertilized a few days earlier, or (less likely) an egg damaged by the effects of osmosis if you used RO/distilled water on the eggs at some point. 
I lost many eggs that way before I figured out what was happening.


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

I don't know if you did it to take pics but that petri dish looks dry. You should put enough water in it to just surround the eggs and not submerge them


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

jeffr said:


> I don't know if you did it to take pics but that petri dish looks dry. You should put enough water in it to just surround the eggs and not submerge them


Yep the eggs are submerged in about 50%tea/50%dwater


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Adamrl018 said:


> Yep the eggs are submerged in about 50%tea/50%dwater


Are they totally submerged or partially submerged? Should vent eggs be totally submerged?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Adam,

I get these double eggs occasionally with my Tinctorius. Sometimes one tad will develop, sometimes two, sometimes none. If they do develop, the tads are usually smaller, but will grow into regular froglets along with their cltuchmates.

Good luck! Richard.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ I agree. Twins.

Vent eggs can be submerged, and prefer it that way. They will often lay them in film containers 'under' water.

Anyway, Tad tea and keep them wet. They will develop if mother nature intends them too....and be ready to feed tads for a 'long' time....vents can take many months to morph. 

btw, although U can remove the bad eggs with a clean razor blade, I usually just leave them alone. People 'worry' that bad eggs cause other eggs to rot, but I havent seen that to be the case.....healthy eggs develop, despite us. 

S


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Shawn,

I had an Iquitos Vent tad take 17 months to morph out!! I kept feeding it and changing it's water every week, but thought many times about flushing it. He is now a very pretty frog and no different than his clutch mates (though MUCH younger!) Go figure Nature.

Richard




sports_doc said:


> ^ I agree. Twins.
> 
> Vent eggs can be submerged, and prefer it that way. They will often lay them in film containers 'under' water.
> 
> ...


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

3 more turned white 

i have 3 more still truckin along...


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Adamrl018 said:


> 3 more turned white
> 
> i have 3 more still truckin along...


If they all go, you could try leaving them alone for longer---say a week---before pulling them. Then you could be sure more of them get fertilized.


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

ill try that. 
i left them in the brom for about 3 days, they seemed to be just ignoring them, then i took them out.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Adamrl018 said:


> ill try that.
> i left them in the brom for about 3 days, they seemed to be just ignoring them, then i took them out.


Sometimes they may also in fact be fertilized, and moving them disturbs that and causes abortion---i.e., there is a good amount of risk involved in moving such young eggs that many advise to leave them _in situ_ until they are at least wiggling around a bit. 
If any of the fertilized eggs have turned upside down during the move and remained that way, they will likely abort.

I'm just wondering from the appearance of these----what source/type of water was sprayed on them in the tank, and what kind did you apply when you pulled them?


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

I use distilled water pretty much for everything. misting, cleaning poos... 
I picked up some spring water to see if that helps with the next eggs. "the male is still calling and I think they may be courting"

Right now i have them in 50/50 distilled and oak leaf tad tea.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Adamrl018 said:


> I use distilled water pretty much for everything. misting, cleaning poos...
> I picked up some spring water to see if that helps with the next eggs. "the male is still calling and I think they may be courting"
> 
> Right now i have them in 50/50 distilled and oak leaf tad tea.


Distilled water is great for all that---except for eggs. 
I think you should get purified drinking water (purified via ozonation/carbon filtration) for the eggs instead of the distilled concoction, as you quite possibly may have created a solution that leeches minerals from the egg, which basically rips the yolks in half within the egg.


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

This makes for a good thread. What are people using for water for the eggs and tads. Shouldn't the same water quality be used for misting and spraying the tanks, petri dishes and Bromeliads since this is where the eggs are being deposited? What are some of the requirements for the water we're using.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

TDK said:


> This makes for a good thread. What are people using for water for the eggs and tads. Shouldn't the same water quality be used for misting and spraying the tanks, petri dishes and Bromeliads since this is where the eggs are being deposited? What are some of the requirements for the water we're using.


The best water is ozonated water since it rids the water of harmful organisms but leaves the minerals intact. Carbon-filtration via a sink filter like PUR will only reduce contaminants---a 'higher-end' carbon filter does a better job of that---these are usually 'under sink' filters; however, this does not always ensure that harmful chemicals, like triclosan, will be cleaned from the water, as they may be smaller particles than such a filter can handle (correct me if I'm 'off' on this point.)

Water that is 'hungry' from lack of minerals will try to suck those from eggs.---e.g., distilled and reverse-osmosis (RO) water. 

Otherwise, distilled is optimal for foggers/misters since the mineral deposits will not clog up the components over time. A decalcification add-on is required if one is not using distilled/RO water with said machines. 

It is ideal to use mineralized (regular) drinking water that has been purified through ozonation and carbon filtration in such cases, and in fact optimal for the eggs' well being. 

I had to learn this on my own through experimentation, and later confirmed it through reading.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

earthfrog said:


> If they all go, you could try leaving them alone for longer---say a week---before pulling them. Then you could be sure more of them get fertilized.


Most if not all male frogs in the genus Ranitomeya deposit their sperm before the female deposits her eggs. I think your second post of moving them early damages them is much closer to the reason they went bad (in addition to them being new breeders).

One thing for people to consider when removing eggs from the tank is that dart frog eggs were not designed to be moved. Look at the amount of direct, rough, physical contact the male frog (or female frog in Oophaga) has with the eggs. They don't do much with them until they are ready to hatch. If you need to touch the eggs to move them (ie they aren't in a petri dish or film canister) you will be much better off waiting as closely as possible to the time that the adult frog would move the eggs/tads.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Aurotaenia said:


> Most if not all male frogs in the genus Ranitomeya deposit their sperm before the female deposits her eggs. I think your second post of moving them early damages them is much closer to the reason they went bad (in addition to them being new breeders).
> 
> One thing for people to consider when removing eggs from the tank is that dart frog eggs were not designed to be moved. Look at the amount of direct, rough, physical contact the male frog (or female frog in Oophaga) has with the eggs. They don't do much with them until they are ready to hatch. If you need to touch the eggs to move them (ie they aren't in a petri dish or film canister) you will be much better off waiting as closely as possible to the time that the adult frog would move the eggs/tads.


I do generally wait until near hatching point as well. 
Eggs may be damaged in transition from either pathogens entering through a tear in the egg or through being turned upside down and not righted immediately. 
I have also lost a few 'near fully developed' tads by moving them. It is best to wait.


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