# What Might a Vivarium Be Worth? - POLL



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Hey everyone. So I have been toying with the idea of selling a handful of terrariums/vivariums a few times a year for awhile now. After making some new connections with members I can vend shows (west coast) with, and a few other sources for bulk supplies, I am going to give it a shot. I would first say that this is simply a side thing, for the love of vivarium building. This is not intended as a means of support in anyway. However, I want to offer more than a simple vivarium, but rather something I would build for myself (especially if they don't sell!  ) This is where you all come in. I know roughly what my cost will be (still trying to get it down a hair). So here is where you chime in.

What is it worth to a buyer? Let's pretend our customer is not an avid builder like we all are, but rather someone at a show who does not have the know how to do so. The tank is 30 gallons with a light, driftwood, well planted with 3-5 broms and various ferns and plants, even a few small orchids. The tank has a month or two of growth, so it is simi to well established. Let's say it is this tank (which is exactly what is described above). What do you think a fair going price is?











I know two DB members who recently sold several 10's with a basic set-up and a two juvi darts for over $200 a piece. So I know people buy set-up tanks at shows. But I want to do something along the lines of a show tank. Any thoughts are more than welcome.


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Prices are going to run over that entire range. I've seen several nice 10G vert beginner setups go for $100-$150. NAAC had a whole range of nicely planted tanks at the auction. Couple went for well over $500. 
I'd target nice, simple, well planted 20G verts and horizs, in the $100-$150 range. You should also consider seeding with springs, isopods, ect. 

Considering your basis tank is a 30G with light, I'd say $150-$200.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Just not that interested in smaller tanks, although I know I may have to. Although I was greatly encouraged by their ability to sell the 10 verts relatively easily.


----------



## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

Unfortunately, you can probably get 150+ out of a 10G but only maybe 200-250 out of a 30G, even though we know the costs involved in a 30G were drastically more.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I agree with that, and it's a shame in someways that three times the tank is not worth three times as much, but a big part of this is just for the fun. Although I probably would not continue to do it if you could only break even. It seems so far that pl259 is right though, the price will run the full range.

I have a pricing in mind, but I want to see how this shakes out.


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I think you really need to consider who you're trying to sell to. That will dicate what size tank(s) you target and want to be lugging around from show to show. You could try some test marketing by offering a couple different sizes to see what sells. My guess is 10-20g would be most successful because of their portability. The larger tanks are great, but start to become difficult to physically transport about. I really like the standard 15g tall and 20g tall because they work well vert or horz. Cubes are nice too. An acrylic 18" cube at 25g, is another great size, but without the weight.


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

This is incredibly subjective.

First of all...the definition of worth is = what someone is will to pay (what the market will bear)
Secondly...there are all different kinds of vivariums, sizes, misted, water features, planting, self sustaining, etc which have a great deal of impact on price. Not to mention quality. I personally am willing to pay a decent penny on a home for in some cases $500 worth of frogs. A beautiful showcase vivarium is more than a frog home, it is a living piece of art.

You certainly can make a vivarium for $150 but remember you get what you pay for. I can make a 10 vertical with some handifoam and thats one thing. I can also set up for live plants, water features, misting, self sustainability, custom soils, custom tree trunks and other designs which take considerably more materials, time and effort but in my opinion yield something that shows the attention to detail that only someone who loves what they are doing can provide. 

There is definitely a market for both. I think you will find those who need multiple setups for breeding who will want to pay $100-150 max and others who want a showpiece to display proudly and publically who are willing to invest $500+.

I think you may want to redesign your poll to take into consideration this wide variety of final products.

Chris


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Chris, I fully agree with you. As I stated before I do not want to do a cookie cutter vivarium, I don't do that for my personal ones and would not want my name on one. I understand there is a huge volatility in these kinds of things, and I am not after the "I want a bunch of breeders for $100 each" crowd. I agree fully that a nice tank is a piece of art, and being such some people would gladly pay a pretty penny, I probably would.

I guess I simply wanted to get a consensus on a simple (what I consider simple) design as I laid out before. A nice sized tank, nice plants (not pathos and creeping fig), and well designed for aesthetics. If I do this I am going to have different styles as you suggested, including orchid tanks to target the many orchid growers in my area. This would obviously have to be more than what I have described above.

I am not sure how to have this poll reflect all of those different scenarios.

I also agree with the idea of a few tester tanks, a few 30's (or 25 talls), and say a few 15 talls or 20's. See what catches the eye. Lugging a bunch of larger tanks around does suck. But I would only sell a handful at each showing (3-5 probably).


----------



## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

I know I'd pay $150 for a nice tank like you have there, probably even 200, but I also know I can build the same it's just going to take a lot of time. Time is where the money is, it's just hard to put a sticker on it. There's also a crowd (your target audience) who doesn't have the time and/or skill, but they aren't the ones roaming this board  Your best bet is really to do like you've said and make a few "sample" setups in various sizes and see what sells, you might even want to not put a sticker on them and see what people offer.


----------



## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

Wayne,

I’m not so sure that you couldn’t get 3x more for a 30 gal than a ten. I’d bet that you could, especially if you had different sizes on display. The key would be to effectively demonstrate the value of having a larger, more diverse and stable set up over a cute little one if one has the space. It would also be worth pointing out that large enclosures (if planted appropriately) will require less maintenance. And keep in mind that some of the people who will be considering your vivariums/terrariums will have no intention of keeping animals in them at all, so big beautiful , with low maintenance would be ideal. 

Also, you’re an orchid guy. You could design an orchid-heavy terrarium for the orchid lover who never thought he/she’d be able to keep them. There's just something about those orchids! Trust me, the right set ups will make people with no experience with them drop $$ if you show them how easily they can be maintained, and I bet that *YOU* could do this very easily. 

While I'm at it, the artist in me suggests that you consider taking along a portfolio. You never know who will request an installation!!!!

Oh, my vote... $300 +


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Thanks Tim! A website will be on it's way at some point. But a portfolio is a great idea too.

As far as orchids, I already have that going  One of the things that really has been motivating me is that at least one large (1 million sq feet of green houses) Orchid grower in my area has shown interest in possibly displaying my tanks, but I need to bring a portfolio down for them to look at. My real goal is not to focus on the frog worl per se, but to target the huge Orchid market in the Santa Barbara areas, one of the biggest orchid producing places on earth. I have already spoken to one grower about a pertnership.

One day I would like to branch out into custom installations, but baby steps to success! Ha ha.


----------



## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

Baby steps! Famous last words! I know what it's like to hear "That's beautiful, but could you..." It _will_ happen. And if the price is right...

What will you do?


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

That came up with the Orchid grower I was talking to. His advise was to not give people too many options, as he said people will walk all over you. I think the only way I will branch into custom stuff is for good money, where it is worth the hassel. Basically, this is the tank, this is the price for said tank.

I think that is similar with compeating against budget builders. You can't compete against pathos clippings if you have nice plants in yours, so I plan on sticking to my guns. If you want pathos I am not your guy  

It is all a lot to think about, and I have been for the better part of a year. I don't expect to get rich off this, like the new members you see from time to time who think they are going to make bundels off darts. But I think there is a viable market out on the West Coast to tap. That is my focus too, Los Angeles to Santa Barbara, maybe a San Diego show.


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

If you're not looking to house animals/frogs in some of these, then that's a different story. I think these vivs then fall into the "living art" category. Tank sizes then can be a lot different and more along the deep picture frame shape. Sky's the limit with these. To heck with the baby steps!


----------



## Brock (Jun 29, 2007)

I voted 150-200, cause I think that's how much I'd charge if I made some.

But, if you actually put a lot of effort into making one look 'designer' like a piece of furniture,
I don't see why you couldn't find some ritzy froggers to get one for more. 

Do a Google Image Search of 'Takashi Amano'
he's a Japanese aquarium designer and people pay top dollar for his work, because it's original,
a conversation piece, and unique.

Including misting systems, installing all the accessories in the person's home, and adding a good supply of microfauna so the vivariums were 90% self sufficient (of course adding fruit flies has to be done), would increase the value.

It's a good idea, I'd love to see how this venture turns out for you.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Amano is brilliant. I would love to bring some of that to the Terrarium/Vivarium hobby.



pl259 said:


> I think these vivs then fall into the "living art" category. Tank sizes then can be a lot different and more along the deep picture frame shape. Sky's the limit with these. To heck with the baby steps!


This woul be more of the intent, high end stuff. I know Chris (Umbrasprite) is on the same page with me. If you have seen my new tank you can tell I do put a lot of effort into these. I had not really thought of approaching it from the art side of it really, but that is a great idea, and probably a lot you could do with that too.

I will for sure keep the board updated, as I am on here way too much anyway!

I appreciate all the imput and welcome more, but you have all given me some good food for thought that I can run with.


----------



## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

I voted 300+ only because I know how much these things can cost to build, especially when you are using exotic plants and orchids. I bet your area is one of the best markets in the country for these kinds of things. Your terrariums are killer. For frogs or for show, there are lots of applications for these. Lobbies, offices, museums, private collections, etc. I think testing the market will give you a feel for where you will have the most success with the larger more expensive terrariums. I don't think any amount is too much for something that someone wants bad enough, and 300 bucks really isn't that much money. You just got to find the right person to sell it to.


----------



## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

You're right that he's in a good market, but you'll have to sell 2-3 BIG ones before you can get more business. If an office or large lobby somewhere buys a 100+ Gallon tank (possibly for $1000+) you might quickly have 3-4 more offices wanting one. Selling to hobbyists though you'll have trouble "making a name" to generate more business, even though we can all see you have some of the best...


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Thanks for the input Brian and Tommy. It would be amazing to do larger ones for offices, and after I build a portfolio bigger than what I have now I have thought about contacting local offices (Doctors, law, contractors for high end homes). Infact, a woman gave me a contact to a florist who does stuff for Oprah at her place near Santa Barbara, she told me she thought he would be very interested in them. His shop is right in the middle of one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country, if not the world.

For now I see this as expanding my hobby. If in time this works out, I would be more than happy to expand it. I don't want to get to ambitious too soon. But if I can get into National Geographic that would be cool. Ha ha


----------



## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Hey Wayne I'm glad to see that you are finally moving forward with this venture! I think you should do some really nice one's with your "high-end" clients in mind. Price them "high" and see what happens. The worse thing that would happen is they wouldn't sell. Try again later at a lower price with your now even more mature terrariums. I think you have a great product and if you had some way to get them to PA I would buy them! I like building my own but I just have too much stuff going on to spend the kind of time I'd like to! Great job! 

PS - Keep me in mind if you decide to do that website . . . I'm sure we could work something out!


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Thanks, I will! Maybe I should just get a van and tour the country building tanks for DB members, I have three places I could stop so far, and one of them offered a truck full of Orchids if I do!   Ha ha. I wish you could ship them. I looked into it. A 30 gallon tank would probably be about $250-300 to ship, and even then who knows.

Melas, I also think you should offer those templates you made for me to the board. Sure I paid a bit more for the design, but I think people would love to have them. I have seen several conversations about things like that and yours are nicer.









I will let you know on the website. A friend I did a tank for also does graphic design and does layout for a local paper, but I am not sure about his website background. A brochure is also in my future, for those high end customers.

AN OPEN CALL TO ECOWALLS LLC and VARIANCE DESIGN. Guys, if you read this, go for it! I would love to do what you guys are doing and I think there is a massive market for it. It has been really inspiring to see everyone’s work on this board, especially guys like the Ecowalls team and Variance Design.

I don't know what the future holds for me, but I worked some plant deals that will help with the cost. I will keep all of you updated.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Hey everyone, just an update. So I vended my first show, NARBC in Anaheim with Evolvstll Dart Frogs this past weekend. Pretty exciting! Met some really cool people. I had two tanks, a 25 gallon and a 30 gallon, both talls. I went middle ground price wise and sold them both. I will be doing a more ambitious show in January, with maybe 10 tanks. I learned a lot. One, people love these tanks, but don't neccisarily want to pay a fortune for them. Some may also be intimidated by a 30 gallon tank. Most people interested where new to vivariums (afterall, the DB crowd knows how to build their own). Now, I built these tanks pretty nice. Nice enough that I wouldn't mind having them if they didn't sell. For the future I will be doing more smaller tanks. 10 or 15 and 20 Verts, or 20 talls. These I think I could move faster. Me and Evolvstll are also going to work to be a little flashier in our displays.

So I thank you all for you input, it was very helpful. I won't post what I sold them for, but if you are very interested you can PM me.


Wayne
Selva Design & Vivarium


----------



## pet-teez (Oct 3, 2007)

Maybe I'll go crazy sometime and treat myself to one of your builds 

Awesome that they both were picked up!


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I never thought I would say this but, I hope you go crazy soon! Ha ha. Come to the show in January in Pomona, I will have lots there.


----------



## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

One pc of advice I would offer is to price them higher than what you want out of them. I make custom duck and goose calls and custom turkey calls. I sell more calls by pricing them higher than what I want for them and letting people think they talked me down in price and got a better deal than the next guy.


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i voted 300+ you got to figure in, the time, labor, materials involved, the plants, and the personal piece of arts you put into the vivs. I know i would pay well over 300 dollars and have. that is a beautiful viv. kristy


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Thanks Scott and Kristy. I am conveinced that private sales are going to be a better business for me. I agree, I think these things (with the plants, labor, and art) are worth a pretty penny. Scott, I will keep that in mind, that is a really good idea actually. The January show I am doing will be a better judge of what I will be doing with these. Kristy, I got close to what you voted for on one of them.


----------



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Thanks Scott and Kristy. I am conveinced that private sales are going to be a better business for me. I agree, I think these things (with the plants, labor, and art) are worth a pretty penny. Scott, I will keep that in mind, that is a really good idea actually. The January show I am doing will be a better judge of what I will be doing with these. Kristy, I got close to what you voted for on one of them.


ok so without misting system, timers, water features etc..it is worth 500 plus a little. Definately for a viv that has had time to grow. has had the substrate installed etc. Nice viv by the way. If only i lived closer your way, i know i might pick one up. Not that i can't build my own, but to save time and effort lol.....ok that was lazy you can lean towards my price or be a bit less expensive in hopes to get it sold. I would take preorders if it wasnt already mentioned in the posts. I know joshsfrogs is doing this as we speak. check out his site terraniums he is providing at the shows to give you an idea. but 30 gallons is rather large and big. outstanding viv. kristy hope that wasn't too boring for ya lol


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I checked out Josh's, thats interesting. Thanks for the kind words Kristy. On the next batch I plan on getting a few months of grow in time for them too.


----------



## ofblong (Sep 11, 2008)

just saw this. A Local store here sells the 10gal vivariums for $300 without frogs $400 with frogs. they sell a $15 gallon viv for $375 without frogs and $475 with frogs. So I am sure for a 30g they would sell it for closer to $600.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

That seems pretty steep for a 10! Do they even look nice? Thats nuts. I think a ten is worth up to $150 or a little more. Unless it is a show stopper that just seems really high.

Now, with a the right build and some grow out time, I could get $400-600 for a 30. But there is just so much more you can do with them.


----------



## ofblong (Sep 11, 2008)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> That seems pretty steep for a 10! Do they even look nice? Thats nuts. I think a ten is worth up to $150 or a little more. Unless it is a show stopper that just seems really high.
> 
> Now, with a the right build and some grow out time, I could get $400-600 for a 30. But there is just so much more you can do with them.


its grown out thats why. the whole 10 was nothing but plants.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Still seems a bit high, but I do think an established tank is worth a lot more.


----------



## ofblong (Sep 11, 2008)

well I did find a 29 fully established for $50 and a 35 for $100. not sure if I am gonna get the 35 but seriously contemplating the 29 .


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Can't beat that!


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Finally got these uploaded. These are the two I sold.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

If you are talking shows I would say 20 gal and under. You could get those smaller tanks cheaper buying semi bulk. I would look into meristem cultures of the orchids you like to use best and get a ton of a few orchids growing to make it easier *I realize you are an orchid guy so don't really have to say anything else about these, except that sarcoglottis sceptrodes is the most beautiful jewel orchid I have ever seen!* I voted 300+ because I would gladly pay 20-30$ for an orchid I like and 10-20$ for some sweet broms I really liked and 10-?$ for exotic ferns like microgrammas, or ant ferns or that sweet neolepisorus ovatus vareigated fern harry whitmore has. Plus cost of tank, plus moss plus nut pods/vines/ghostwood plus labor and mist system and timer and perhaps frogs. With enough small take with you types to fill a good portfolio then do some bigger euro vivs like at terracom.tk with more unique plants for custom jobs with some amount of purchaser input into plant choice and accouterments Hell I would pay for just a shell of those euro style vivs


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

My opinions:

1. The average market with the most volume sales would be from large size / attendence Reptile shows....obviously. The only problem is that with the economy and tight money, the size and cost is critical to sucess here.

I would use a 10 gallon tank with either a simple hinged glass lid for terrestrial PDF's or a vert conversion. But inorder to make any money from your profit margin, you have to use a cheaper tank and there is none cheaper than the 10 gallon size. You can get them for $5.00 each in bulk.

Then planted or even sold with Auratus.....you stand the best chance of turning a profit and supplying a much needed customer base with an inexpensive viv.

Total of under $100.00 for a planted and frog occupied tank? Can you provide this at shows? If so you can probably make $60-$70 on each tank if you breed the Auratus yourself.

Ultra green pillow moss is always a "big hit" as well...and it's cheap! 

....some random thoughts...


----------



## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

I voted 250+ 

Simple reason..I hate to mail order..Very Limited Local selection of Materials..plants. wood..
I have no artistic ability..the Ability to use right away..

Of Course I would tend to go for Bigger Vivariums..over small ones. 

Honestly I build because I can't go out and purchase ready made ones..otherwise I would.


----------



## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I would guess......
10G-$100-150
20G-$150-250
30G-$250-350
40G-$350+
50-100G-$500-1000


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I saw some super simple 10 gals fly off the shelf at the captive bred exo in october for like 60 or 70 bucks. Think Darren Meyer was selling some. simple false bottom vert style 10's with I think styrofoam false bottom and just a couple of plants like pothos in the substrate
So I think a 10 with some broms and orchids could easily fetch 100 with a background or 150 with a froglet or 2. I want to encourage you to do this as much as possible and think your idea about tapping into the orchid crowd is a great idea. I am a member of the AOS and there was an article on orchids in the terrarium a few months ago with a black jungle reference even. Anyway, the article was ok and his presentation left much to be desired compared to your vivs.
Don't give up on this idea, YOU CAN DO IT!


----------



## Ontariofrogger1973 (Oct 18, 2008)

UmbraSprite said:


> This is incredibly subjective.
> 
> First of all...the definition of worth is = what someone is will to pay (what the market will bear)
> Secondly...there are all different kinds of vivariums, sizes, misted, water features, planting, self sustaining, etc which have a great deal of impact on price. Not to mention quality. I personally am willing to pay a decent penny on a home for in some cases $500 worth of frogs. A beautiful showcase vivarium is more than a frog home, it is a living piece of art.
> ...



definetly true.


----------



## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

well we all know that if you go to a show ppl are always looking for deals and for much better prices. if you sell online or locally or even on DB where ppl could truely appriciate such a craft you would be able to charge a little more. but i mean for ppl like us on DB that have friends and tricks to the trade. it doesnt really cost most of us much to have a beautiful set up. i mean just from buying the supplys alone for a very basic viv set up false bottom soil moss tank and lid lamp bulb hut and a hand full of plants can still be well under 100 bucks.


----------



## Laxgoal100 (Sep 9, 2008)

The comment about the $500+ show tank is a great point. People look for a brilliant, diverse set up to show off to their friends and guests, and they will be willing to pay a lot for it. It's really just like a show aquarium. In my opinion, there is a market for the extremes. Enthusiasts without time or motivation to build will buy 10-20 gallon tanks at $100-200, and people who want a show tank will buy a 60 gallon tank for a whole lot more than that. I just dont think there would be much of a market for the inbetween. Just my two cents.


----------



## flybuster (Feb 27, 2009)

i think everybody brought up some great points. i think if u want to make some real money your target sshouldent be hobbyist or more dedicated collectors but offices. doc. lawyer ect.. every time i go there is the same old fish tank in every one. maybee print a flyer with some beautifull viv. pics and some simple explanition on care or herp choices.... a nice low maintance viv you could sell with a service plan.....good luck!


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

If you had a Black Jungle down here in boca or on South Beach.....you could defiantely sell $500.00 vivs, and prolly a lot of them even.

It's all about location of the product.

To sell a planted viv. it HAS to be seen to be appreciated and not mail ordered. That part is obvious.

Then you have to find your target consumer base and the majority of it exists at all the herp shows. You just will not find anyone willing to spend more than $200.00 on a viv at these shows. They barely want to spend big money on animals so it makes it quite hard to envision a high end viv selling well.....hence the 10 gallon staple, to keep costs low. Then as the hobbyist learns more about the frog ( singular, hopefully) then they will want to purchase more and then they will most likely build a larger viv on their own...like a 20 gallon ect....

Just my two dinare'


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> Then you have to find your target consumer base and the majority of it exists at all the herp shows. You just will not find anyone willing to spend more than $200.00 on a viv at these shows. They barely want to spend big money on animals so it makes it quite hard to envision a high end viv selling well.....hence the 10 gallon staple, to keep costs low. Then as the hobbyist learns more about the frog ( singular, hopefully) then they will want to purchase more and then they will most likely build a larger viv on their own...like a 20 gallon ect....


I agree. I had a harder time selling nice tank at my first show. I sold on for $280 and one for $200, but barley broke even. Next show I dumbed them way down and sold all but one. They are like $150 each. At the shows people dont want to pay big bucks for a starter tank.

However, the market is there for the mid range. I have now sold 12 or 13, from simple $150 ten or 20's to $700.oo customs.

I would like to hit up the office market, doctors and such as mentioned, but I only have so much time to do it in.


----------



## pet-teez (Oct 3, 2007)

You should show off some of these over at SCAPE... 
We're having a meeting at my place in Oceanside this Sunday, you should come down *flutters eyelashes*


----------

