# I murdered two of my frogs today



## ktewell

I liberally covered two of my sls froglets in 20% benzocaine. Their hearts still haven't stopped beating; this was over half an hour ago. Did I do something wrong? How do we know this is the most humane method to sacrifice them?

What kills me is I don't know if they're suffering right now or not. They initially spazzed out like crazy (with only their back legs) but haven't been able to move since. I feel dreadful.


----------



## Philsuma

Here's what I have used in a couple incidents.....it's fairly instant acting and appears humane....












Anbesol liquid contains three active ingredients, *lidocaine hydrochloride* (previously known as *lignocaine hydrochloride* in the UK), *chlorocresol* and *cetylpyridinium chloride*.
Chlorocresol and cetylpyridinium chloride are both mild antiseptics that kill a variety of bacteria and fungi that might infect sore or broken skin in the mouth.
*Lidocaine hydrochloride belongs to a group of medicines known as local anaesthetics. It works by temporarily blocking the pathway of pain signals along nerves.* 
Pain is caused by the stimulation of pain receptors at the ends of nerves. The stimulation causes sodium to enter the nerve ending, which causes an electrical signal to build up in the nerve. When this electrical signal is big enough, it passes along the nerve to the brain, where the signal is interpreted as pain.
Lidocaine works by stopping the sodium entering the nerve ending at the site of the pain. This prevents an electrical signal building up and passing along the nerve fibres to the brain. In this way lidocaine causes numbness and relieves pain at the area it is applied to.


----------



## Mikembo

What I do is start out with a small amount and keep on adding more when they start to become less active and do the back leg twitching. When I am able to flip them on there back (they are still breathing but wont flip back over themselves) I add a large amount on there stomach and they die in less than a minute. After I notice they stop breathing I put them in the freezer. 

If they haven't died in an hour and a half add more benzocaine.  

-Mike-


----------



## JimO

I know it sounds primitive and crude but when I have to euthanize a small animal, I crush them quickly with a heavy object, such as a steel concrete tamping weight. It's on a wooden handle, has a flat bottom and is heavy. I place the animal in a plastic bag and make sure they die instantly.


----------



## james67

that seems very strange. i also add a liberal amount (totally covering the frog's belly) to the ventral side of the animal and breathing usually stops in a couple minutes. i wouldn't worry yourself about the 'pain' the animals might feel, benzocaine is a topical anesthetic which means it is a medication that causes loss of sensation when applied externally. the thing that actually kills the frog is the massive overdose of the benzocaine, which should numb the animal until it dies. probably the most humane way to go that i can think of. its very similar when you get a dog or cat euthanized only they use a liquid applied intravenously rather than a topical application.

could it be VERY old?

james


----------



## Andres

I had to put down some red eyed tree frogs a while back, I know it sounds gruesome but I just quickly threw them into a pot of boiling water. The second they hit they were gonners.


----------



## billschwinn

My god, there are some scary people on here, boiling water?


----------



## james67

boiling water? thats pretty bad 

ok before people keep suggesting what honestly seem like pretty inhumane euthanasia methods we should discuss what are "accepted" methods.

benzocaine or other topical anesthetic overdose is very likely the most humane method of euthanasia and is accepted as such by a number of organizations. it is easy to do and "puts the animal to sleep"

orajel's ability to work properly also depends on how it was stored and for what length of time.

james


----------



## Andres

Well they had recurring rectal prolapses and were suffering. It was much faster than any other method mentioned. Literally instantaneous.


----------



## thedude

billschwinn said:


> My god, there are some scary people on here, boiling water?


For the record, humane means no suffering. boiling water=acceptable, crushing them (properly)=acceptable.

When i kill invasive bullfrogs, i severe their spinal chord with a knife. they don’t feel it at all. i find freezing to be very inhumane. same with drowning and suffocation.


----------



## tachikoma

Philsuma said:


> Here's what I have used in a couple incidents.....it's fairly instant acting and appears humane....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anbesol liquid contains three active ingredients, *lidocaine hydrochloride* (previously known as *lignocaine hydrochloride* in the UK), *chlorocresol* and *cetylpyridinium chloride*.
> Chlorocresol and cetylpyridinium chloride are both mild antiseptics that kill a variety of bacteria and fungi that might infect sore or broken skin in the mouth.
> *Lidocaine hydrochloride belongs to a group of medicines known as local anaesthetics. It works by temporarily blocking the pathway of pain signals along nerves.*
> Pain is caused by the stimulation of pain receptors at the ends of nerves. The stimulation causes sodium to enter the nerve ending, which causes an electrical signal to build up in the nerve. When this electrical signal is big enough, it passes along the nerve to the brain, where the signal is interpreted as pain.
> Lidocaine works by stopping the sodium entering the nerve ending at the site of the pain. This prevents an electrical signal building up and passing along the nerve fibres to the brain. In this way lidocaine causes numbness and relieves pain at the area it is applied to.



I don't know man, I am a sufferer of canker sores in my mouth and nothing hurts more than the initial application of Lidocaine /benzocaine products. Yeah it numbs it.....after the initial 30 seconds of tear inducing pain. Also it is only numb to a certain point, if I start eating some foods for example citrus it the pain will overpower the medication and I can still feel it. If the frog was squirming it def was in discomfort, not sure the exact reason why. I am willing to bet that it is not as humane as we may think.


----------



## james67

you weigh between 100-300lbs and probably apply less than a half gram of benzocaine gel... an small frog weighs 2 grams give or take and a gram or more of ointment is applied. this is like saying you would feel the citrus if we applied 50 -150 lbs of topical anesthetic to you. i think can safley say that i seriously doubt you would feel ANYTHING (if you could survive.) the frogs also (from my understanding) are able to absorb the topical anesthetic much more easily than human skin (which is pretty darn resistant to a number of medications) 

i have never felt any discomfort (other than the numbness itself) from the benzocaine. 

i still think this is the best method (available to the general public) and the US national library of medicine has documentation, that suggests this method



thedude said:


> For the record, humane means no suffering. boiling water=acceptable, crushing them (properly)=acceptable.
> 
> When i kill invasive bullfrogs, i severe their spinal chord with a knife. they don’t feel it at all. i find freezing to be very inhumane. same with drowning and suffocation.


severing or dislocating the spinal cord is considered humane AFTER anesthetic has been applied.

james


----------



## rcteem

Remind me when/ if I ever need to be euthinised not to tell some people on here...very scary!!!


----------



## Paul G

billschwinn said:


> My god, there are some scary people on here, boiling water?


I agree. This scares the hell out of me.

Check this out.... (from Ed K.)
Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia


----------



## Ed

thedude said:


> For the record, humane means no suffering. boiling water=acceptable, crushing them (properly)=acceptable.
> 
> When i kill invasive bullfrogs, i severe their spinal chord with a knife. they don’t feel it at all. i find freezing to be very inhumane. same with drowning and suffocation.


This is fairly up to date on the accepted legal (humane/non-cruel) methods of amphibian euthenasia. The only real updating needed is that the benzicaine is now accepted as a method of euthenasia. Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia 

Unless there is some other form of anesthesia, severing the spinal column is not humane as it does nothing to stop the feeling of pain until the animal suffocates (which can take quite a long time particularly when compared to a mammal), pithing would be much more humane instead. 
Boiling water is also not accepted nor is freezing. Smashing is only possibly accepted if the entire skull and brain is crushed on the first strike. If it is not then it is not humane (and it requires the brain to be throughly crushed). 

Ed


----------



## stemcellular

I use two diluted ethanol baths, first to give them one last hurrah, the second to send them to the pearly gates.


----------



## pl259

I also use two grain alcohol baths. The first is a 10% solution which gets them feeling no pain. The second is a killing solution of 100%. Works fine and is humane enough for me.


----------



## ktewell

I think I was just naive for my first time. I've read that euthanasia article before, and I seem to recall someone saying orajel takes less than a minute to work. I finally just reapplied it on their head and ventral area at the one hour mark and stopped watching them. This morning they are dead.

One thing bothers me though. When I first applied it, they both reacted the exact same way. They didn't protest much when I picked them up. But at the first touch of orajel they _freaked_ out for about 4 seconds, then went limp.


----------



## Bananaslug

I am of the opinion that if it sakes several minutes to over an hour for an animal to die, it might not be very humane. I would tend to think that smashing an animal with a hammer would be more humane than causing it to "freak out" for a few seconds and lie around dying for some time afterwards by applying a fatal dose of chemical to the skin. I also find it interesting that the animals we find enjoyable are given more respect than a bug or plant that we deem a pest. We smash mosquitos, what's wrong with smashing a frog? I myself would prefer a blow to the head over a bath in ambisol lol.


----------



## arkay

Maybe I'm missing something here but why would you want to kill them? If you dont want them anymore why not give them away to a happy home?


----------



## Topete

arkay said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here but why would you want to kill them? If you dont want them anymore why not give them away to a happy home?


Typically sls make them suffer and die slowly due to starvation, if sls is not severe i know the user in here would not recur to the method.


----------



## davescrews

Anybody ever use: TRICAINE-S (MS-222, TMS, tricaine methanesulfonate) is an FDA approved fish anesthetic (FDA ANADA 200-226) used for the temporary immobilization of fish, amphibians, and other aquatic cold-blooded animals (poikilotherms). TRICAINE-S (MS-222) has long been recognized as a valuable tool for the proper handling of these animals during manual spawning (fish stripping), weighing, measuring, marking, surgical operations, transport, photography, and research. This is the only thing I have ever used for euthanasia very safe and humane.


----------



## arkay

Took me a little bit to find what sls was

Disease

Thats so sad. I don't think I'd be able to kill any of my pets.


----------



## james67

there was a paper written that suggests that the amount of MS-222 needed to properly euthanize an animal may be much greater than previously believed. im weary because of that. they also found the same with the benzocaine, but i guess it has to do with each person's comfort level and knowledge of the chemical

james


----------



## Jadenkisses

thedude said:


> For the record, humane means no suffering. boiling water=acceptable, crushing them (properly)=acceptable.
> 
> When i kill invasive bullfrogs, i severe their spinal chord with a knife. they don’t feel it at all. i find freezing to be very inhumane. same with drowning and suffocation.


I agree - it would seem that instantanious death would be much more humane than letting it suffer for a minute, 30 minutes or an hour while waiting for some orajel or benzocain to kill them.
It does sound really horrible, but crushing them swiftly and forcefully does kill them the quickest, way possible and with no pain felt.
I'm sure it hurts them a whole lot when you put that stuff on their skin and it goes through their entire system.

I don't know - watching it twitch around for while before it dies would be just too much for me to deal with and is inhumane in my opinion.
I would have to put it down more quickly than that.


----------



## Ed

Jadenkisses said:


> I agree - it would seem that instantanious death would be much more humane than letting it suffer for a minute, 30 minutes or an hour while waiting for some orajel or benzocain to kill them.
> It does sound really horrible, but crushing them swiftly and forcefully does kill them the quickest, way possible and with no pain felt.
> I'm sure it hurts them a whole lot when you put that stuff on their skin and it goes through their entire system.
> 
> I don't know - watching it twitch around for while before it dies would be just too much for me to deal with and is inhumane in my opinion.
> I would have to put it down more quickly than that.


Movement does not always equate to suffering when dealing with an anesthetic... 

for those who are really interested I suggest http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf 

Ed


----------



## poison beauties

Microwave radiation, gunshot, and electrocution and decapitation? I would think that all of these are far worse than a pot of boiling water or smashing a frog.

Michael


----------



## heatfreakk3

Gunshot? Lol I would think a gunshot for a frog would be a little over the edge... imo


----------



## JimO

Ed said:


> This is fairly up to date on the accepted legal (humane/non-cruel) methods of amphibian euthenasia. The only real updating needed is that the benzicaine is now accepted as a method of euthenasia. Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia
> 
> Unless there is some other form of anesthesia, severing the spinal column is not humane as it does nothing to stop the feeling of pain until the animal suffocates (which can take quite a long time particularly when compared to a mammal), pithing would be much more humane instead.
> Boiling water is also not accepted nor is freezing. Smashing is only possibly accepted if the entire skull and brain is crushed on the first strike. If it is not then it is not humane (and it requires the brain to be throughly crushed).
> 
> Ed


On the rare occasion that I have had to kill a frog or toad, it has most frequently been at night when I came across one or more that had been partially crushed by a car. I don't mean to be facetious, but I don't carry benzocaine in my car and the animal needed to be put out of its misery. I might point out that many of us have owned reptiles that ate live prey - you can see where I'm going here. 

I have no issue except with those who would refer to me as "scary" because I would crush an injured or dying animal to put it out of its misery. I've been fortunate enough to only have one froglet so far with SLS and I swiftly crushed it using the method I described and I assure you that it died instantly. I had a tough time killing that little guy because it was my very first azureus froglet.

As to the overall topic, I realize that nobody takes pleasure in having to kill (euthanize) one of their animals and in doing so we want to minimize any pain and suffering. However, to put things in perspective, I would like to point out that even some of the apparently more violent methods mentioned here, that are described as "scary", are far less painful than what the average predator does to an amphibian in the wild or what the average insect goes through when eaten by a frog.

To the OP - I wouldn't consider you a murderer for euthanizing your suffering frogs, neither would I consider someone who hunted bullfrogs a murderer or ripped a carrot out of the ground and threw it into boiling water a murderer.


----------



## JimO

pl259 said:


> I also use two grain alcohol baths. The first is a 10% solution which gets them feeling no pain. The second is a killing solution of 100%. Works fine and is humane enough for me.


Just curious. How do we know that alcohol or benzocaine or any other skin absorbed chemical causes no pain? Have you ever spilled a mixed drink, wine, or beer in your eye? It hurts. I've used oragel on canker sores and it burns like he## when it first goes on. If I dove in a pool of it, I don't see why it still wouldn't hurt initially, especially in some particularly sensitive areas (ahem).


----------



## Ed

poison beauties said:


> Microwave radiation, gunshot, and electrocution and decapitation? I would think that all of these are far worse than a pot of boiling water or smashing a frog.
> 
> Michael


Did you read the conditional requirements for those uses? 

Ed


----------



## Ed

JimO said:


> On the rare occasion that I have had to kill a frog or toad, it has most frequently been at night when I came across one or more that had been partially crushed by a car. I don't mean to be facetious, but I don't carry benzocaine in my car and the animal needed to be put out of its misery. I might point out that many of us have owned reptiles that ate live prey - you can see where I'm going here.
> 
> I have no issue except with those who would refer to me as "scary" because I would crush an injured or dying animal to put it out of its misery. I've been fortunate enough to only have one froglet so far with SLS and I swiftly crushed it using the method I described and I assure you that it died instantly. I had a tough time killing that little guy because it was my very first azureus froglet.
> 
> As to the overall topic, I realize that nobody takes pleasure in having to kill (euthanize) one of their animals and in doing so we want to minimize any pain and suffering. However, to put things in perspective, I would like to point out that even some of the apparently more violent methods mentioned here, that are described as "scary", are far less painful than what the average predator does to an amphibian in the wild or what the average insect goes through when eaten by a frog.
> 
> To the OP - I wouldn't consider you a murderer for euthanizing your suffering frogs, neither would I consider someone who hunted bullfrogs a murderer or ripped a carrot out of the ground and threw it into boiling water a murderer.


There are different standards depending on what is available. Personally I tend to carry a tube of benzocaine in my backpack for use. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

JimO said:


> Just curious. How do we know that alcohol or benzocaine or any other skin absorbed chemical causes no pain? Have you ever spilled a mixed drink, wine, or beer in your eye? It hurts. I've used oragel on canker sores and it burns like he## when it first goes on. If I dove in a pool of it, I don't see why it still wouldn't hurt initially, especially in some particularly sensitive areas (ahem).


It actually isn't the benzocaine that is causing the intial pain but the alcohol in the gel material. Choose one with a lower level of denatured alcohol in it and you will get a lesser level of burn as the benzocaine can take effect more quickly. 

Ed


----------



## Mr. Bronze

Humane or not, I will flush them in the toilet . It's cheap, easy, fast and effective.


----------



## james67

thats a joke right?

regardless of how humane actually doing that can introduce new pathogens to your area. an acceptable method of disposal would be double ziplocked in the trash.

james


----------



## Jadenkisses

I really hope that's a joke - if not then that's sad, Mr. Bronze.
I wouldn't want to be one of your tadpoles...


----------



## poison beauties

Ed, I did read on through it and I understand the conditional requirments and see that they are not all for darts but I would think that "smashing", and the boiling water and maybe the oragel would be just as quick, less time and supply involved and just as humane.
Like always this is just my opinion and not fact.

Mr. Bronze, I would not be flushing frogs if I were you. The last thing our hobby needs is more blame for the spreading of pathogen's and non ethical disposal of hobby related items. Your actions will cause us all problems in the long run. Joking or not. People who wish to end our hobby read these forums.

Michael


----------



## Ed

poison beauties said:


> Ed, I did read on through it and I understand the conditional requirments and see that they are not all for darts but I would think that "smashing", and the boiling water and maybe the oragel would be just as quick, less time and supply involved and just as humane.
> Like always this is just my opinion and not fact. I would not be flushing frogs if I were you. The last thing our hobby needs is more blame for the spreading of pathogen's and non ethical disposal of hobby related items. Your actions will cause us all problems in the long run. Joking or not. People who wish to end our hobby read these forums.
> 
> Michael



Lets be clear, are you accusing me of flushing frogs?


A sharp blow done properly is acceptable if done in conjunction with pithing the brain. Boiling regardless of anything is not going to be acceptable as it does not disable the pain sensation (until it cooks) as the heat rises from the outer tissues inward towards the brain. The frog's pain sensation does not become disabled until there is enough damage from cooking to disable the brain. In effect what happens is the person is cooking the smaller portions (limbs) without disabling any pain receptors in the thicker portions. 

Ed


----------



## pl259

JimO said:


> Just curious. How do we know that alcohol or benzocaine or any other skin absorbed chemical causes no pain? Have you ever spilled a mixed drink, wine, or beer in your eye? It hurts. I've used oragel on canker sores and it burns like he## when it first goes on. If I dove in a pool of it, I don't see why it still wouldn't hurt initially, especially in some particularly sensitive areas (ahem).


Not sure if we'll ever know for sure. All we can do is the best we can. If the first solution is diluted enough, they really don't "complain" all that much. They swim around in it like it's no big thang. After a minute or so they slow down and float around. They don't respond much when touched, which is when I pull them out and drop them in the strong solution. They swim about for 15 sec or so and are done. I never see anything I would call "frantic" during the process.

All of which is good enough for me, until some better info becomes available.


----------



## james67

Mr. Bronze said:


> Humane or not, I will flush them in the toilet . It's cheap, easy, fast and effective.





james67 said:


> thats a joke right? regardless of how humane actually doing that can introduce new pathogens to your area. an acceptable method of disposal would be double ziplocked in the trash.





Jadenkisses said:


> I really hope that's a joke - if not then that's sad, Mr. Bronze.
> I wouldn't want to be one of your tadpoles...





poison beauties said:


> Like always this is just my opinion and not fact. I would not be flushing frogs if I were you. The last thing our hobby needs is more blame for the spreading of pathogen's and non ethical disposal of hobby related items. Your actions will cause us all problems in the long run. Joking or not. People who wish to end our hobby read these forums.





Ed said:


> Lets be clear, are you accusing me of flushing frogs?


ed, the flushing comments were in response to mr.bronze's post not yours.

james


----------



## poison beauties

Post edited Ed.
As for the boiling I understand and while I have not done this I would think it would be instant and no more painfull than the shock of the oragel or anbesol's first direct contact. Again I cant state facts on this but I think in all honesty the suffering frog would be dead before even submerged in the boiling water. I only consider this to be as I would figure the shock factor to be its on pain blocker or contributing factor to death.

Michael


----------



## Ed

Just making sure. I didn't think it was aimed at me but I didn't want someone later on to read it and think that.. 

The problem is we really don't have a good understanding on how shock works in reducing pain in animals... in most cases of predation etc, there is a significant prestressor which preps the body for the shock of the trauma. I'm not sure we can make the jump to the idea that the stimulation from being caught and tossed into boiling water is the same... 

I'm also not sold on the idea that the escape behaviors seen when treated with oragel are a comparable level of pain stimulation. 

I do have a good idea how it would play out in a cruelty trial given that it is not on the list of accepted methods... 

Ed


----------



## poison beauties

I agree. Im still reading through the link but it seems to start but very blunt and be a bit outdated. Is this the latest study on this and are all of these treatments or humane killing factors still considered the best way to do this? My interest in this is the shock factor. Whether it plays a role in pain management or not like in humans. Thanks for the info.

Michael


----------



## Catfur

While I'm not one for boiling frogs, I strongly suspect that an SLS sized dendrobatid froglet will only feel the briefest of pain (fractions of a second) before dying, as due to it's small size, it will be heated to the point of destruction in probably only a second (I also suspect that the same would be true for submergence in a subzero antifreeze solution).

I suspect that the studies on euthenasia probably don't take into account size to this extent. I agree that boiling a larger frog like a treefrog or larger dendrobatid would almost certainly be excessively painful.


----------



## Andres

As for the boiling, like I said it was for a small sick froglet, which was dead instantaneously. I think everyone might be imaging a large frog hopping around in pain. For a tiny sick frog the boiling death is litterally instantaneous as in 1/10th of a second. The frog was dead the second it hit the water, faster than the blink of an eye. When working with a tiny frog - less than 1/2 inch, I don't like the idea of pinning them down for two minutes and rubbing with chemicals waiting for it to take effect. (See the OP) Also smashing a frog that small could be hit and miss. It was the only truly instant death I could think of for a frog that size. I'm not proposing it as a regular practice.


----------



## thedude

Ed said:


> Unless there is some other form of anesthesia, severing the spinal column is not humane as it does nothing to stop the feeling of pain until the animal suffocates (which can take quite a long time particularly when compared to a mammal), pithing would be much more humane instead.
> Boiling water is also not accepted nor is freezing. Smashing is only possibly accepted if the entire skull and brain is crushed on the first strike. If it is not then it is not humane (and it requires the brain to be throughly crushed).
> 
> Ed



when im severing the spinal chord, the knife is also being inserted into the brain. keep in mind people, im doing this in a second. they dont feel ANYTHING. 

i dont believe aenesthetic is needed for it to be humane because it doesnt feel it. which is the point of the aenesthetic.

when i say boiling is acceptable, i mean for a tiny SLS suffering frog. i wouldnt do it to anything bigger. that would be cruel.

and with crushing, it has to be a lot of force on their head all at once to end it quick. ive tried several things for killing a frog/snake/bird when they need to be put out of their misery. and the knife is still the best.

i did find a seagull on the beach that had one of its wings ripped off once. the only thing i could do was break its neck by twisting its head. i felt bad, and i wasnt sure if it was going to be instant but it was.


----------



## thedude

Mr. Bronze said:


> Humane or not, I will flush them in the toilet . It's cheap, easy, fast and effective.


you shouldnt be allowed to have frogs. unfortuantely it doesnt work like that and what you do could be used against all of us. so please...dispose of things properly.

AND thats the least humane thing yet. i havent experienced it, but im pretty certain drowning doesnt feel to good. so thats another reason why you shouldnt have frogs.


----------



## Occidentalis

davescrews said:


> Anybody ever use: TRICAINE-S (MS-222, TMS, tricaine methanesulfonate) is an FDA approved fish anesthetic (FDA ANADA 200-226) used for the temporary immobilization of fish, amphibians, and other aquatic cold-blooded animals (poikilotherms). TRICAINE-S (MS-222) has long been recognized as a valuable tool for the proper handling of these animals during manual spawning (fish stripping), weighing, measuring, marking, surgical operations, transport, photography, and research. This is the only thing I have ever used for euthanasia very safe and humane.


MS-222 is the best bet, but I don't know about the "safe" bit. It's controlled, and a sniff of the stuff will numb out your nose for quite a while. It's certainly safe enough for someone with common sense.


----------



## cskeeba

I agree with the drowning being inhumane as it is the most painful way to die. However, hypothermia in my understanding is quite peaceful as it is similar to eutheinasia as the individual slips into a deep calm sleep as everything shuts down..... I agree with benzocaine as being the most reasonable and least amount of suffering(for the record) just thought I would give my two pennies.....

Oh and it seems much more acceptable to toss a lobster in a pot alive just before you eat it to get the freshest possible flavor.:O


----------



## andyrawrs

cskeeba said:


> However, hypothermia in my understanding is quite peaceful as it is similar to eutheinasia as the individual slips into a deep calm sleep as everything shuts down.....
> 
> Oh and it seems much more acceptable to toss a lobster in a pot alive just before you eat it to get the freshest possible flavor.:O


The symptom of hypothermia described above does not come immediately. Have you ever taken an ice bath? Hurst like hell for the first couple of minutes, then slowly you get used to it. I'm not sure if it's less painful exactly, or if my nerves get slower or something, but it takes quite a while before things go "numb." This of course is not hypothermia, this is simply burning. Of course the nervous reactions of an endothermic mammal to subzero temperatures are probably not the same as that of a frog, which I believe must go directly into hypothermia due to its ectothermic nature...

When I was a kid I recall seeing the eyes move on a crab prepared for me that I was told was steamed. Maybe it's a little different from boiling (although theoretically steam carries significantly more kinetic energy than boiling water...though its less immersive) but it freaked the crap outta me (maybe I imagined it?) Of course crustaceans have substantially less developed nervous systems than chordates...but I agree it still seems inhumane. Although frankly I think this argument is just semantics at this point (and I am of the belief that there is not much point to arguing semantics)

Just my two cents
Andy

Edit: The semantic subject being the real-world applicable definition of "humane"


----------



## Ed

The problem with freeze sensitive ectotherms is that the cold renders the animal immobile but does not do anything to reduce the sensation of pain while the animal slowly freezes to death starting at the extremities (as ice crystals form in the tissues and cause damage). When dealing with herps people tend to confuse the idea that an animal that is unresponsive to stimuli from cold is asleep.. this is not true. As these animals can continue to have significant brain activity while under conditions of severe oxygen deficit, the ability to feel pain is not reduced. 

Ed


----------



## andyrawrs

Ed said:


> As these animals can continue to have significant brain activity while under conditions of severe oxygen deficit, the ability to feel pain is not reduced.
> 
> Ed


Assuming that metabolic processes occur to support brain activity, then one also assumes that aerobic respiration is replaced by fermentation due to "severe oxygen defecit." This also brings the assumption that lactic acid burn is felt by the animals. Ed, refresh my memory if this is incorrect, but I believe that the buildup of this acid is the cause of the burning sensation associated with asphyxiation (though not necessarily hypoxia or anoxia.)


----------



## Ed

If I remember correctly it does cause the burning sensation. 

There is literature that supports the metabolic ability to sustain brain activity. check out http://www.mnf.uni-greifswald.de/fileadmin/Zoologisches_Museum/Hildebrandt/Dokumente/bickler07.pdf

With respect to the freezing if you can get access to a copy of The Care and Use of Amphibians, Reptiles and Fish in Research Evaluating Pain and Stress 
in Reptiles by Valentine A. Lance, Ph.D
It does cover it pretty well. 

Ed


----------



## Philsuma

Occidentalis said:


> MS-222 is the best bet, but I don't know about the "safe" bit. It's controlled, and a sniff of the stuff will numb out your nose for quite a while. It's certainly safe enough for someone with common sense.


Alex....where can we get this?


----------



## CAMI>>

So I have to put my frog down and I tried the orajel and my frog is still alive and it has been over four hours. I am freaking out cause I don't know if it's suffering or not. Did I do it wrong? I used the orajel cream. I could really use some help. Deciding to euthanize was tough as it is. Now I am dragging it out and it's horrible


----------



## scoy

I think you were suposed to use the liquid. You might have put the poor guy in more pain. This thread goes over just about everything you can do to put it down, it just depends what your willing to do.


----------



## carola1155

What kind of frog was it and how much did you apply? 

I've had success with the gel in the past, never used the cream... don't know if it would affect absorption to be honest.

Shot in the dark here... but I'd try continuing to apply more and cover the whole frog. Maximize coverage to maximize absorption.


----------



## smoyer

Inhumane or humane is an ethical question for us. Our frogs likely care little. IMHO, It may be important to point out that amphibians are lower vertebrates with nervous systems and brains that are not developed or organized to an extent that "pain" is processed comparably to humans, dogs, or even reptiles. In amphibians primitive receptors transmit signals to the spinal column triggering motivational responses, (stimulus ("pain or poke or movement") = affect; frog hops away or twitches). The part of brain that can discriminate the signals we consider pain is the cerebral cortex, amphibians lack this along with other important structures. This suggests that amphibians (lower vertebrates) are not capable of, or have a vastly diminished potential to feel pain or "suffering". 

Don't take this the wrong way. I would never suggest or condone culling any animal in an inhumane way! Part of our responsibility as keepers is to do exactly that, care for our animals in the most humane way possible, including this! 

However, culling a frog may be more like squishing a spider than euthanizing a dog...


----------



## Pumilo

smoyer said:


> Inhumane or humane is an ethical question for us. Our frogs likely care little. IMHO, It may be important to point out that amphibians are lower vertebrates with nervous systems and brains that are not developed or organized to an extent that "pain" is processed comparably to humans, dogs, or even reptiles. In amphibians primitive receptors transmit signals to the spinal column triggering motivational responses, (stimulus ("pain or poke or movement") = affect; frog hops away or twitches). The part of brain that can discriminate the signals we consider pain is the cerebral cortex, amphibians lack this along with other important structures. This suggests that amphibians (lower vertebrates) are not capable of, or have a vastly diminished potential to feel pain or "suffering".
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way. I would never suggest or condone culling any animal in an inhumane way! Part of our responsibility as keepers is to do exactly that, care for our animals in the most humane way possible, including this!
> 
> However, culling a frog may be more like squishing a spider than euthanizing a dog...


How do you not take that the wrong way?


----------



## markpulawski

Like or not Ed I freeze when I euthanize when a frog is to the point of no return, there just comes a time when it is best for the animal. Most are pretty solid within a few minutes but all of mine have been thumbs and Pumilio.


----------



## thedude

markpulawski said:


> Like or not Ed I freeze when I euthanize when a frog is to the point of no return, there just comes a time when it is best for the animal. Most are pretty solid within a few minutes but all of mine have been thumbs and Pumilio.


I'm assuming since you live in Florida you don't know what cold feels like then. Freezing to death would be horrible. I'd stomp on a frog before putting it in the freezer, at least then it would be quick...

And no, I've never stomped on a frog.


----------



## OrangeTyrant

markpulawski said:


> Like or not Ed I freeze....


It's not about whether or not Ed likes it, the method of freezing is absolutely unacceptable, as is boiling, drowning, and decapitation without pithing. 

The AVMA released new guidelines for euthanasia just this past year with detailed sections on most species of animals that I urge all responsible keepers to read and take to heart. Frogs DO feel pain and deserve "the good death" in the least stressful and painless way we can provide in their last moments of need.

https://www.avma.org/kb/policies/documents/euthanasia.pdf

I recommend everyone read page 6-7 and 10-17 to gain a basic understanding of euthanasia and pain surrounding it. Euthanasia guidelines pertaining to amphibians may be found around pages 51 and 76-78.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I know it`s posted already, just in case anyone missed it....
Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia

for some damn reason I can`t open the link Val provided


----------



## OrangeTyrant

It's working for me, but maybe not for others because I linked direct to the PDF? Here's the website, if you scroll down, there's various options for download. 

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Euthanasia-Guidelines.aspx


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

OrangeTyrant said:


> It's working for me, but maybe not for others because I linked direct to the PDF? Here's the website, if you scroll down, there's various options for download.
> 
> https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Euthanasia-Guidelines.aspx


Thank you it worked


----------



## smoyer

Pumilo said:


> How do you not take that the wrong way?


The wrong way would be to take my statement on the science known about amphibian brain function and think that I am condoning the inhumane treatment of animals. My comments on pain and suffering were not ethical, they were scientific. 

Re-reading my statement I should have not used pain and suffering interchangeably, even though the term pain is less than accurate for this comparison (google nociception and atinociception). 

Just because a frog is incapable of processing what we call suffering does not mean it can't feel pain. Frogs in fact can feel pain. They just can't process it in a way that we would correlate with feeling pain. (They are incapable of connecting the feeling of pain to the concept of pain because they lack the cognitive ability). 

Incidentally, this is why some laboratories choose amphibians for opioid and pain research. 

Ethically speaking we should strive to minimize and eliminate this pain regardless. I totally agree with and would make a compassionate argument that no animal should treated unethically. 



OrangeTyrant said:


> It's not about whether or not Ed likes it, the method of freezing is absolutely unacceptable, as is boiling, drowning, and decapitation without pithing.
> 
> The AVMA released new guidelines for euthanasia just this past year with detailed sections on most species of animals that I urge all responsible keepers to read and take to heart. Frogs DO feel pain and deserve "the good death" in the least stressful and painless way we can provide in their last moments of need.
> 
> https://www.avma.org/kb/policies/documents/euthanasia.pdf
> 
> I recommend everyone read page 6-7 and 10-17 to gain a basic understanding of euthanasia and pain surrounding it. Euthanasia guidelines pertaining to amphibians may be found around pages 51 and 76-78.


Thanks Val. The article is great, and well worth the read, and I agree with your sentiment on taking it to heart.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

smoyer said:


> Incidentally, this is why some laboratories choose amphibians for opioid and pain research.
> .


Are there any openings for human volunteer`s?


----------



## Ed

Thanks Val and Smoyer. You two beat me to the punch on this topic... This is not a new topic to the hobby or to institutions.. See for example 

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (the link works) 



> Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine © 1999 American Association of Zoo Veterinarians
> Abstract:
> Analgesics are often not provided to amphibians because the presence and severity of pain may not be recognized in these animals. In addition, there is little information on the mechanism of action of analgesic agents in amphibians. However, amphibians possess appropriate neurologic components for transmitting pain from peripheral receptors to the central nervous system and antinociceptive mechanisms to modulate pain. They are capable of displaying behavioral and physiologic modification of pain systems in response to analgesic pharmacologic agents. Therefore, pain perception in amphibians is likely analogous to that in mammals and invasive, potentially painful procedures should be accompanied by appropriate analgesia and anesthesia. Although specific doses have not been established in clinical trials, basic research into the mechanisms and regulation of endogenous opioid systems demonstrates the potential clinical benefit for the use of opioids in these animals. Other analgesics such as $\alpha _{2}$ -agonists, ketamine, and tricaine methanesulfonate have also demonstrated analgesic potential.


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

smoyer said:


> Re-reading my statement I should have not used pain and suffering interchangeably, even though the term pain is less than accurate for this comparison (google nociception and atinociception).


This isn't something that is only found in this area of the scientific field. The language that most people would understand regarding this topic is devoid of the shading that can be used to discuss it with lay people. 

From the following Opioid research in amphibians: an alternative pain model yielding insights on the evolution of opioid receptors 



> 2. Nociception and pain in amphibians
> The first issue to be considered in talking about a nonmammalian model for pain and opioid research is one of semantics. The word pain, in its strictest sense, is not correctly applied to nonhuman animals. Pain refers to a complex perceptual and emotional experience in humans that has a prominent subjective component [18,22]. Purists would refer to what we commonly call pain in animals as nociception and balk at using terms like pain and analgesia with animal models. Nociception is used to describe the transmission of noxious stimuli and subsequent processing up to the point in the brain whereby the pain experience, if present, is mediated. However, for ease of use and to make research findings accessible to a general audience, the term pain is generally used instead of nociception, and analgesia is used instead of antinociception. This is not a trivial point, as our attitudes about animals are reflected by the language we use in describing them [5]. Pain researchers, in an attempt to use less jargon, have accepted this less-than-precise usage of the word pain, but this does not necessarily imply that these researchers believe that the animals they use experience pain as we do. It also does not mean that researchers using nonhuman animals believe that animals do not feel pain. In this regard, we must remain agnostic, using the best available science to guide our judgment. The terms pain and analgesia are used here for convenience and, in doing so, make no assumptions as to the capacity of nonmammalian animals to experience pain.


The paper has a pretty good explanation on the topic. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## terrorsquad

the quickest way really. good old fashion hammer. it doesnt know what hit them and its instant.


----------



## aspidites73

terrorsquad said:


> the quickest way really. good old fashion hammer. it doesnt know what hit them and its instant.


Instant takes on a whole new meaning while in death throes. A fraction of an instant is still inhumane.


----------



## jjhill001

aspidites73 said:


> Instant takes on a whole new meaning while in death throes. A fraction of an instant is still inhumane.


They use carbon monoxide on feeder rats and mice. There is no real humane way to kill something. Every type of killing involves some don't of pain or suffering. Being frozen or boiled sound's freaking awful. That's a matter of death by fire or ice which would you prefer. I don't know enough about medicines and the like to have confidence that those creams or painkillers aren't just prolonging and putting more stress on the animal. As long as the animal is conscious it is stressed when out of its terrarium.

To me for an animal as small as these massive blunt force trauma seems to be the best way to go about it with the least amount of suffering and pain. Put the frog in a zip loc bag, get him in the corner and crush it with a large head hammer. Fast and as pain free as possible. Is it barbaric, yes. But it is effective and fast. 

You have to remember that the animal typically being euthanized is usually already suffering. You are trying to end that suffering. The method is up for debate. If you genuinely feel that making gumbo or popsicles out of your frogs is the least stressful and painfree then that's up to you. 

As long as you don't flush the thing down the damn toilet, which is the method a few invasive species have infiltrated various states and put the entire hobby ( not just dart frogs ) at risk for more regulation. Plus out of all the methods seen that one is by far the least humane one.


----------



## Ed

aspidites73 said:


> Instant takes on a whole new meaning while in death throes. A fraction of an instant is still inhumane.


I have to in all honesty give this a maybe... The reason is that it is possible to beat the ability of the detection of the stimuli to the brain. The problem is when you don't actually kill it with the first blow or don't do it fast enough. Does the risk of a failure to properly do it on the first blow make it a acceptably humane method. 

People should also remember that you can combine more than one method to ensure a pretty stimuli free passing.. For example, you could initially dose the frog with benzocaine and when it shows reduced reaction to stimuli (a classic example is the beginning of loss of the righting reflex when turned over), use a second method to rapidly euthanize the frog. There a number of possible examples to use then.. a rapid blow to the head, crushing the whole head, properly performed pithing and so forth. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

jjhill001 said:


> The method is up for debate. If you genuinely feel that making gumbo or popsicles out of your frogs is the least stressful and painfree then that's up to you. .


The problem is that there is good data that freezing is not excessively stressful or painfree (in fact in amphibians that are not freeze tolerant (like woodfrogs) the data points at being very painful).. 

There is going to be a huge increase in stress coralling a frog into a bag, and then into a corner and from there smashing it.... One of the ways to reduce this is through using a solution of benzocaine... benzocaine doesn't dissolve well in water but you can dissolve it in ethanol well and then suspend it into water. At that point you can even buffer the solution to minimize any risk of discomfort. (say by using amphibian ringers). A solution of 0.1% is sufficient to result in death. This means you could shoo the frog into a container that has a shallow layer of the solution and it's over pretty quickly. 

For example see http://www.if-pan.krakow.pl/pjp/pdf/2005/4_467.pdf?origin=publication_detail 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## jjhill001

Ed said:


> The problem is that there is good data that freezing is not excessively stressful or painfree (in fact in amphibians that are not freeze tolerant (like woodfrogs) the data points at being very painful)..
> 
> There is going to be a huge increase in stress coralling a frog into a bag, and then into a corner and from there smashing it.... One of the ways to reduce this is through using a solution of benzocaine... benzocaine doesn't dissolve well in water but you can dissolve it in ethanol well and then suspend it into water. At that point you can even buffer the solution to minimize any risk of discomfort. (say by using amphibian ringers). A solution of 0.1% is sufficient to result in death. This means you could shoo the frog into a container that has a shallow layer of the solution and it's over pretty quickly.
> 
> For example see http://www.if-pan.krakow.pl/pjp/pdf/2005/4_467.pdf?origin=publication_detail
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Isn't ethanol alcohol and there entire skin just absorbs stuff. I mean wouldn't that burn really badly? I would trust your benzocaine method probably more than the freezing or boiling that has been mentioned here. I've personally never had to put down a really small amphibian. I'm just going about what I personally would do. I've killed my fair amount of mice for feeding to snakes and I can tell you now that fast cracks to the head are the fastest way to get an animal unconscious and thus not feeling pain.


----------



## OrangeTyrant

The problem with comparing rodents to frogs is they are far too different physiologically, and it's like talking apples to oranges. CO2 is an acceptable method in rodents (although it is being questioned due to recent studies), but is NOT acceptable in amphibians due to their different adaptations for hypoxic environments. 

So while blunt force trauma is an AVMA acceptable method in both rodents and amphibians, it is still not the first choice method for any of the species discussed due to personnel error as well as potential psychological impacts to the person performing this method. 

I would be cautious about comparing amphibians to other species when discussing euthanasia, and review the 2013 AVMA guildelines for euthanasia linked previously, so as not to over-complicate this already touchy subject.


----------



## carola1155

OrangeTyrant said:


> So while blunt force trauma is an AVMA acceptable method in both rodents and amphibians, it is still not the first choice method for any of the species discussed due to personnel error as well as potential psychological impacts to the person performing this method.


Finally someone mentioned it... I'm sorry but I have zero desire to have to clean up the remains of a frog that I have had to crush like that. It's bad enough seeing a dead frog... it would be worse to see the carnage of a blunt force trauma. Plus, if you miss and don't crush the skull (say the frog moves when you're swinging) that is a pretty messed up situation you have on your hands.

Orajel has worked really well for me. Yea they squirm a bit when you apply it (but it is the same way I have seen frogs squirm when applying other topical meds) and then they just chill out and eventually stop breathing. 

Thankfully it has been like 2 years since I've had to put anything down though...


----------



## Ed

jjhill001 said:


> Isn't ethanol alcohol and there entire skin just absorbs stuff. I mean wouldn't that burn really badly? I would trust your benzocaine method probably more than the freezing or boiling that has been mentioned here.


Yes while ethanol is alcohol (the drinkable kind), your not dropping the frog into a solution of straight alcohol. The dilution etc is discussed in that paper and if I remember correctly the AVMA link provided earlier. . 




jjhill001 said:


> I've personally never had to put down a really small amphibian. I'm just going about what I personally would do. I've killed my fair amount of mice for feeding to snakes and I can tell you now that fast cracks to the head are the fastest way to get an animal unconscious and thus not feeling pain.


As noted by Val, the two really cannot be compared, and while many people use that method when feeding live rodents to try and incapacitate the rodent, a surprising number of times, the rodent isn't killed... As a result, it suffers a significant injury but still undergoes severe pain/suffering. As an alternative, you may want to become trained in cervical dislocation as when it is done properly it is rapid, humane and you don't get rodent blood spattering on the floor or elsewhere. See http://www.utexas.edu/research/rsc/iacuc/forms/guideline04.pdf 

I was trained in using it more than 20 years ago. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

carola1155 said:


> I'm sorry but I have zero desire to have to clean up the remains of a frog that I have had to crush like that. It's bad enough seeing a dead frog... it would be worse to see the carnage of a blunt force trauma. Plus, if you miss and don't crush the skull (say the frog moves when you're swinging) that is a pretty messed up situation you have on your hands.


I've been fortunate enough to never have to put down an adult frog, but I did have a string of SLS babies years ago. I wrapped each in a damp paper towel, took it in the backyard, and smashed it with a brick. No miss, no mess. It didn't feel great but the fact that I knew it was the responsible action helped. I can't imagine the frog felt any pain at all, perhaps a bit of stress on the initial capture. Double-bag and throw away. 

That being said, I'm wouldn't relish doing that with an adult frog.


----------



## carola1155

Boondoggle said:


> I've been fortunate enough to never have to put down an adult frog, but I did have a string of SLS babies years ago. I wrapped each in a damp paper towel, took it in the backyard, and smashed it with a brick. No miss, no mess. It didn't feel great but the fact that I knew it was the responsible action helped. I can't imagine the frog felt any pain at all, perhaps a bit of stress on the initial capture. Double-bag and throw away.
> 
> That being said, I'm wouldn't relish doing that with an adult frog.


yea mine were all ventrimaculata froglets with SLS... gotta love the better supplements that have solved that problem in the last couple years. Still, even if there is a way to control the mess I'm much more comfortable with the method where there isn't a mess to worry about controlling. Call me weird, but I find it easier.


----------



## Fantastica

I feel like one of the very few people who is physically incapable of smashing a frog purposefully. It's hard enough to add some tadpoles to 10% buffered formalin, even though they don't freak out about it. What about benzocaine followed by freezing? Would it be numb enough to not feel the pain of freezing?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


----------



## OrangeTyrant

In regards to tadpoles, Page 78 Section 7.3.9 of the 2013 AVMA guidelines on euthanasia appears most applicable "...Later stages may be destroyed using methods that are acceptable for adult animals..." which would include MS 222 baths (common in the fish hobby), benzocaine baths, manually applied blunt force trauma to the head, rapid freezing (if body weight under 4g), and decapitation followed by pithing. All of this is discussed in the guidelines. 

The caveat here is that rapid freezing, DOES NOT mean placing into a typical residential freezer or even a deep chest freezer. On page 78 again - "...Reptiles and amphibians can be euthanized by rapid freezing when it results in immediate death. Based on rodent models, it is likely that this can be achieved by placing animals <4 g (0.1 oz) in liquid N2. The technique should not be used for species that have adapted freeze tolerance strategies, as this method may not result in instant death. Placement of animals >4 g in liquid N2 or other uses of hypothermia are not acceptable..."

If you read further, there is also discussion as to why it is unacceptable to freeze a reptile or amphibian in a freezer or refrigerator. Rapid freezing would be a good choice for tadpole culling, but liquid nitrogen may be difficult to access for some.

Rapid chilling as it pertains to small bodied tropical fishes may be applicable to tadpoles, but it still does not consist of placing an animal in a freezer to come down to temperature from room temperature because it is not rapid enough. The correct procedure for rapid chilling can be found on page 71 and the animal is transferred directly into ice water that is held at 2-4 degrees Celsius for a prescribed amount of time. Procedure and methodology can be read at the link. This induces hypothermic shock, however, something that is specifically deemed unacceptable in amphibians in the reptile and amphibian euthanasia section. Rapid chilling is a poor choice for tadpole culling, in my opinion.

Benzocaine hydrochloride (the active ingredient in Orajel) is accepted by the AVMA, and should be applied to the ventrum of the animal. The 7.5% or 20% preparations should be used (check on the back of the box for active ingredients and strength when choosing a product), as pure benzocaine is not water soluble and stronger gels require acetone "carriers". These carriers can cause tissue damage and unnecessary irritation. So, benzocaine hydrochloride is one of the better choices for tadpole culling, although following it up with freezing (which we've already determined is unacceptable) may be, excuse the pun, overkill.

Let me mention also, another easily accessible euthanasia agent - MS 222. Made into a bath (methods and instructions can be found on page 77 in the link), it's another good choice for culling tadpoles and is used commonly in the fish keeping hobby.


----------



## Fantastica

Thanks for the detailed response, Val. In the freezing aspect, I was mostly talking about culling SLS froglets. The tadpoles in the formalin are for research purposes, so I'd have to talk to my professor to see if embryos are usually euthanized before being put in the preservative. 

But for the froglets, is the general consensus the 20% oragel, or are we questioning that, in relation to the OP's original concerns?


----------



## smoyer

Fantastica said:


> Thanks for the detailed response, Val. In the freezing aspect, I was mostly talking about culling SLS froglets. The tadpoles in the formalin are for research purposes, so I'd have to talk to my professor to see if embryos are usually euthanized before being put in the preservative.
> 
> But for the froglets, is the general consensus the 20% oragel, or are we questioning that, in relation to the OP's original concerns?


The OP's original concern was over the time it took for the frogs to stop moving and expire, and his concerns for their suffering in the meantime.

As Val has pointed out, the method used by the OP is an accepted & humane method for culling amphibians.

The discussion about amphibian nervous systems by myself and Ed was an attempt to re-ensure the OP and others that the twitching was not a sign of pain and suffering.


----------



## Ed

OrangeTyrant said:


> as pure benzocaine is not water soluble and stronger gels require acetone "carriers". These carriers can cause tissue damage and unnecessary irritation.


It is also possible to dissolve benzocaine into ethanol solutions. For example a 10:90 ethanol/water solution will enable you to achieve a 0.045 M solution. (see 
Bustamante P; Navarro J; Romero S; Escalera B. Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences 91:3 2002)

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Occidentalis

A few things to note (sorry for not responding sooner)
You can dissolve benzocaine or lidocaine in propylene glycol, which is supposedly better than ethanol because ethanol causes burning at the injection site. I have done both and it seems to work very well.

I was asked where to buy it - Western Chemical now offers MS-222 without any hoops to jump through.
Tricaine-S

MS-222 also works on reptiles, but only if injected into the heart. If you use it on viperids, be careful, in my experience you need a lot more and it takes more time to work.


----------

