# Repashy supplements



## jubjub47

I picked up the multivitamin and calcium supplement this week. Is anyone using these two exclusively with their darts? I've heard that the multivitamin uses a better source of vitamin a then the repcal brand, but not sure if I should just completely switch over or alternate with them. Any feedback would be appreciated.


----------



## markbudde

I got some repashy calcium + ICB and am thinking about using it alone. I let you know in a few months how its working.
-Mark


----------



## jubjub47

Hey Mark, I picked that up along with the multivitamin. I've heard it can be used alone, but that sounds too good to be true.


----------



## skylsdale

I'm using the Calcium Plus ICB and have been using it along. The reason it is okay to use this stuff alone is because, unlike supplements such as Reptivite, etc., it has the proper 1:10 ratio of elements (don't remember of what, exactly...retinol to phosphorus, maybe?) for amphibians to metabolize them properly.


----------



## Marinarawr

I was VERY interested in knowing if this could be used alone long-term and it's sounding pretty positive. I successfully used his line of MRPs for my Rhacs with great results so I think I'll pick some of this up and try it out.... I'm not totally off the fence but Repashy's ICB sounds very promising. Thanks for this thread!


----------



## UmbraSprite

This also contains a bit of the active ingredient from Naturose (Axaxanthin...I am sure I butchered the spelling). Has anyone looked at if it provides the same benefits as the straight naturose?


----------



## ggazonas

So far I've been using it in my rotation for the frogs, but for chams I have gone exculsivily to just the rephasy calsium icb


----------



## Marinarawr

UmbraSprite said:


> This also contains a bit of the active ingredient from Naturose (Axaxanthin...I am sure I butchered the spelling). Has anyone looked at if it provides the same benefits as the straight naturose?


I haven't heard of any proof one way or the other, but the claim is that this supplement contains natural pigment enhancing supplements for all colors. 
Repashy Ventures - Retail Store - Dry Goods :: Supplements :: All in One Supplements :: Calcium Plus ICB


----------



## Ed

That mixture of carotenoids should supply carotenoids that affect reds, oranges, yellows and greens.. There are no dietary supplements for blue as that is based only on iridiopores and not xanthopores. 

For what it is worth I'm trying to get then to switch over to it at work. 

Ed


----------



## Corpus Callosum

If a supplement says it has a certain ratio of ingredients, it still doesn't guarantee that your animals are getting those contents. Are all the ingredients in the supplement ground up equally to the same particle size? Do some ingredients stick to the flies better than other ingredients which may not stick as well? What is the nutritional/vitamin content of your flies to begin with before you dust them (probably influenced by your media)? Do some vitamins oxidize / degrade faster than others once they are ground up for the supplement mix? Some questions to consider..


----------



## gary1218

Ed said:


> For what it is worth I'm trying to get then to switch over to it at work.
> 
> Ed


Ed,

Are you looking to switch over to the repashy exclusively? Or in combination with what your using now?

Which repashy are you looking to switch to, the repashy calcium plus icb?


----------



## gary1218

Corpus Callosum said:


> If a supplement says it has a certain ratio of ingredients, it still doesn't guarantee that your animals are getting those contents. Are all the ingredients in the supplement ground up equally to the same particle size? Do some ingredients stick to the flies better than other ingredients which may not stick as well? What is the nutritional/vitamin content of your flies to begin with before you dust them (probably influenced by your media)? Do some vitamins oxidize / degrade faster than others once they are ground up for the supplement mix? Some questions to consider..


So Mike, I'm assuming you're using a combination of dusting powders, correct? What are you using?


----------



## Ed

gary1218 said:


> Ed,
> 
> Are you looking to switch over to the repashy exclusively? Or in combination with what your using now?
> 
> Which repashy are you looking to switch to, the repashy calcium plus icb?


At work I would like them to switch over exclusively to the repashy calcium plus icb for the frogs. At home I am working it into a rotation with Dendrocare and others and will probably cut out the herptivite and leave it with Dendrocare, Rep-cal, straight calcium and the Repashy ICB. 


Ed


----------



## Ed

Corpus Callosum said:


> If a supplement says it has a certain ratio of ingredients, it still doesn't guarantee that your animals are getting those contents. Are all the ingredients in the supplement ground up equally to the same particle size? Do some ingredients stick to the flies better than other ingredients which may not stick as well? What is the nutritional/vitamin content of your flies to begin with before you dust them (probably influenced by your media)? Do some vitamins oxidize / degrade faster than others once they are ground up for the supplement mix? Some questions to consider..


One of the ways to handle this is to regrind the amount of supplement that you are going to use that time right before use as this will even out the adherence of the particles. 

Ed


----------



## ChrisK

Ed said:


> At work I would like them to switch over exclusively to the repashy calcium plus icb for the frogs. At home I am working it into a rotation with Dendrocare and others and will probably cut out the herptivite and leave it with Dendrocare, Rep-cal, straight calcium and the Repashy ICB.
> 
> 
> Ed


Ed I'm starting the Repashy Calcium Plus ICB and will probably replace the Herptivite with it when the 6 month mark on my current supply is up, but howcome you're using straight calcium in your rotation? Are you using UVB?


----------



## markbudde

The website says that ICB was formulated to be used on crickets at every feeding. Is it possible that fruit flies, with their wings for greater surface area, pick up more vitamins per unit mass and thus pose a potential over-supplementation concern?


----------



## Philsuma

I'm picking some of this up at the next Hamburg show, just based on the buzz.

I dust some type of supplement at every single feeding.


I would rather risk "over supplementation" than the reverse....


----------



## Corpus Callosum

gary1218 said:


> So Mike, I'm assuming you're using a combination of dusting powders, correct? What are you using?


If you mean am I mixing different supplements together then no, but if you're asking do I use a variety of supplements in my regimen then yes. I do use some Repashy products (and they're great products) but I'm not fond of the idea that one supplement is so balanced it can be used exclusively. I shoot for a balanced diet rather than a balanced meal, supplying different minerals and/or vitamins on different days. I also use fresh vitamin tablets that I grind up on the spot the day I need them.


----------



## Ed

At work with frogs that are fed three times a week or more we rotate calcium carbonate to reduce the risk of oversupplementation of the fat soluble vitamins This was put into place many years ago when Dr. K. Wright was the curator of the department. 
If the frpgs are fed less than three times a week then they get the supplement on every feeding. 
I do have UVB producing power compacts on the enclosures at work but given the height of the enclosure, with the exception of the treefrogs, I have some significant doubts as to how well it works. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

markbudde said:


> The website says that ICB was formulated to be used on crickets at every feeding. Is it possible that fruit flies, with their wings for greater surface area, pick up more vitamins per unit mass and thus pose a potential over-supplementation concern?


There was an unpublished study by Dr. S. Donoghue (Nutrition chapter both editions of Mader's books as well as developed (the no longer available due to many factors) Walkabout Farms supplements) that demonstrated that fruit flies retain proportionally more supplement than crickets and that if fed heavily a real risk of oversupplementation.. this was one of the reasons we use calcium carbonate at work. 

Ed


----------



## jubjub47

Do any of you that are using the Calcium plus icb also use the multivitamin? I've got both, but it sounds like most are talking about usint the calcium alone.


----------



## Ed

jubjub47 said:


> Do any of you that are using the Calcium plus icb also use the multivitamin? I've got both, but it sounds like most are talking about usint the calcium alone.


Most of us are using in conjuction with other multivitamins as part of a rotation.. 

Ed


----------



## Allen Repashy

Hello Everyone,

Someone on my forums informed me of this thread. It is my first time to this board, but from the look of the level of the conversation here, it seems to be a pretty educated group. I have worked quite hard developing the ICB product, and been in the herp field long enough to remember when we were all using primarily bird supplements.... and things like osteo-form... many of the first herp specific supplements, where actually these products being relabeled for herp use.

I believe that the single worst thing to ever happen to the reptile supplementation was what some of us remember as the "Vitamin A" scare from the early 90's. This was an era when herp supplementation was still in it's infancy, and so was herp medicine, nutrition, and anyone who had a little success, knew how to use the new thing called 'The Internet" and a little time on there hands, could influence the masses.

This is exactly what happened when one individual blamed Vitamin A toxicity for some Chameleon problems and proclaimed their epiphany to the world.
A huge scare went through the hobby, and almost overnight, Vitamin A became taboo, and more associated with poison than a Vitamin... In response to this, a certain vitamin manufacturer created a supplement with Beta Carotene as the only "source" of Vitamin A.

It has been proven by much follow up by such organizations as the ARAV, that Vitamin A was not the cause for the original scare, and it was also noticed that there have been nearly zero documented cases of Vitamin A toxicity in reptiles in modern times. (per communication with Dr. Scot Stahl, DVM)

As most of you know here, there is a huge difference between Vitamin A, and Carotenoids. And as someone mentioned in this thread, the use of the term Retinol is most applicable in the description of Vitamin A in its preformed state.

Beta Carotene CAN be converted to Retinol in the body by some animals, but not all, the classic example I use for comparison is true carnivores such as Cats. Because Retinol ONLY comes from animal sources, Cats have completely lost the ability to convert plant carotenoids into retinol. They don't eat plants, so over time, they just lost this ability because they were not eating plant matter. Instead, they assimilate retinol from the animals they consume. This is the single reason that it is impossible to feed Cats on a true vegan diet. Cat's can not live at all without Retinol in their diet, and id doesn't take long for deficiency to occur if fed a diet without Retinol.

Herbivores are at the other end of the scale, and they must produce Retinol from Carotenoids to survive. True herbivores CAN do just fine on a retinol free diet if given enough caroteniods. (which is not easy to do with most commercial diets, or a veggie diet that is not rich in these nutrients. Because herbivores convert carotenoids to retinol, they still have the ability to process dietary retinol, and it is a part of all commercial herbivore diets and supplements I have found outside the herp world. Carotenoids are some of the most unstable nutrients, and due to oxidation, it is difficult to formulate anything but a fresh diet and depend on their availability as precursors to retinol. There are many more benefits that carotenoids contribute, such as pigmentation..... and many other benefits that are just beginning to be studied.. The beta carotene that is used in quality supplements is a micro-encapsulated product that surrounds the carotenoids in a fat soluble shield that acts as a barrier to oxidation.

So where does that leave us when it comes to omnivores? They do seem to have the ability to convert carotenoids to Retinol, but not enough work has been done to compare the efficiency to that of herbivores...... And Insectivores, specifically reptiles..... this is one of the most understudied topics there is..... There is no financial gain to study them like there is in something like a chicken that is a huge agricultural treasure.

Veterinary feedback, as well as the observations of open minded breeders and keepers, is currently questioning the ability and efficiency of true insectivores to convert carotenoids to Retinol. The cases of documented Vitamin A deficiency in insectivorous reptiles are quite common, near the level of Vitamin D deficiency cases. And with there being no downside to including Retinol in a diet or supplement, there is absolutely no reason to try and feed an insectivore a Retinol free diet. There might be some ability to convert carotenoids, but with the documented cases of Retinol toxicity at near zero, why would you eliminate it?

I believe the best approach is to include moderate levels of both retinol and carotenoids. Caroteniods ARE important, but for many reasons other than their ability to be converted to Retinol. Retinol is SAFE as a supplement, and toxicity is more a fear than a reality unless someone is using pure retinol as a supplement in high amounts.

Wow, I just logged in to say hello, and wrote a freaking novel...... anyways, I welcome any feedback or comments, and hope some of my ramblings have made sense to you readers.

Cheers, Allen Repashy

BTW, I am not writing this just to promote my stuff, I am writing it because I do believe that everyone should use a supplement that uses includes Retinol. I don't care if it is my product or not, but do yourself a favor, and if you have trouble with spindly leg, tadpoles that just don't get past a certain size, I believe a lot of these problems can be connected to retinol deficiency. Just don't be afraid of retinol, even in what many herpers consider high amounts..... ALL of these conceptions are based on folklore and misinformation. Listen to your animals, not your critics!


----------



## jubjub47

Thanks for the information Allen. I've just started using your product and so far like. I'm curious what is in it that causes the sweet smell. I can't get over how tasty it makes the flies smell.


----------



## ChrisK

Hi Allen and thanks for posting! I started the Calcium plus ICB into my rotation because one of my rarer pairs of pumilio breed like crazy but the eggs always go bad after a couple of days - I also started adding spirulina to my ff medium so hopefully this combo will make some kind of difference - the pumilio (and all my other frogs so far) are obligate egg feeders (the tads only eat eggs provided by the mother) so parental health is probably a huge factor - your stuff hopefully might be a ray of light


----------



## Allen Repashy

Thanks Chris,

I use a small amount of natural flavors in a honey carrier. only a couple of % points of the content... a little banana, a little rose, and a little strawberry... I don't think what it smells like really matters much, but do believe that a strong smell of any kind seems to trigger a response in many species..... including those that would never think if eating fruit.. it is just the sensort stimulation that triggers an investigation that I believe makes it attract insectivores and other non fruit eating species. Leopard geckos just love it.... for no natural reason, that's for sure.


----------



## Ed

Hi Allen,

Some questions and comments.. (I do use your supplement and am working on getting it used at work..) 





Allen Repashy said:


> This is exactly what happened when one individual blamed Vitamin A toxicity for some Chameleon problems and proclaimed their epiphany to the world.
> A huge scare went through the hobby, and almost overnight, Vitamin A became taboo, and more associated with poison than a Vitamin... In response to this, a certain vitamin manufacturer created a supplement with Beta Carotene as the only "source" of Vitamin A.


I think this was the tipping point but there was also a lot of problems due to the form of MBD caused by oversupplementating preformed vitamin A which prevent adequate D3 uptake which lent power to that issue. 



Allen Repashy said:


> and it was also noticed that there have been nearly zero documented cases of Vitamin A toxicity in reptiles in modern times. (per communication with Dr. Scot Stahl, DVM)


Allen, there may be few documented cases of toxicity in the course of a normal diet and normal supplementation but there is a lot of data on toxicity of preformed A on reptiles (see for example Mader et al; 2006; Reptile Medicine and Surgery; Saunders, Canada) going back for more than a decade.The lack of toxicity in the course normal oral supplementation may be an artifact due to the lack of readily available supplements containing preformed A and not due to the safety of preformed A. The toxicity problem is also seperate from the issue with artificially caused hypovitaminosis of D3 due to competition between preformed A, D3 and E. 




Allen Repashy said:


> Beta Carotene CAN be converted to Retinol in the body by some animals, but not all, the classic example I use for comparison is true carnivores such as Cats. Because Retinol ONLY comes from animal sources, Cats have completely lost the ability to convert plant carotenoids into retinol. They don't eat plants, so over time, they just lost this ability because they were not eating plant matter. Instead, they assimilate retinol from the animals they consume. This is the single reason that it is impossible to feed Cats on a true vegan diet. Cat's can not live at all without Retinol in their diet, and id doesn't take long for deficiency to occur if fed a diet without Retinol.


At this time, there is some significant doubt on the prior studies about beta carotene conversion in Felids see A Survey of Serum and Dietary Carotenoids in Captive Wild Animals -- Slifka et al. 129 (2): 380 -- Journal of Nutrition as Felids have been shown to accumulate beta carotene and that the prior methods of assay may have missed some ability to convert at least some of the beta carotene to retinol.. 



Allen Repashy said:


> Herbivores are at the other end of the scale, and they must produce Retinol from Carotenoids to survive. True herbivores CAN do just fine on a retinol free diet if given enough caroteniods. (which is not easy to do with most commercial diets, or a veggie diet that is not rich in these nutrients. Because herbivores convert carotenoids to retinol, they still have the ability to process dietary retinol, and it is a part of all commercial herbivore diets and supplements I have found outside the herp world.


The preformed A is added to herbivore diets because if the animal becomes deficient in A then the absorbtion of beta carotene is disrupted and the addition of preformed A is an effective method to prevent this issue. I had thought I had read in a publication that deficiencies in A can also interfere with uptake and bioconversion but could not find it and did not want to cite it without supporting data. 



Allen Repashy said:


> The beta carotene that is used in quality supplements is a micro-encapsulated product that surrounds the carotenoids in a fat soluble shield that acts as a barrier to oxidation.


Allen, is there any retention studies done on this to show that this is effective in the reptile supplements or is this claim based on premixed results? The reason I ask this is a prior study done by the AZA Nutritional Advisory Group showed that most supplements were deficient in one or more ingredients including at least one prominently used in the past lacking all preformed A.. (See Crissey; Susan D.; Ward, Ann W.; Maslanka, Mike T.; 2001; Nutrient content of nutritional supplements available for use in captive lizard feeding programs; Proceedings of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) Nutrition Advisory Group Fourth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition). 



Allen Repashy said:


> So where does that leave us when it comes to omnivores? They do seem to have the ability to convert carotenoids to Retinol, but not enough work has been done to compare the efficiency to that of herbivores...... And Insectivores, specifically reptiles..... this is one of the most understudied topics there is..... There is no financial gain to study them like there is in something like a chicken that is a huge agricultural treasure.


There is some significant information out there that shows that anurans can convert beta carotene but may have high tissue demands on it (see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1275063&blobtype=pdf ) and there is evidence that tadpoles utilize a seperate isomer of preformed vitamin A than do metamorphs and adults (see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1198203&blobtype=pdf) so supplementing preformed vitamin A may not be the correct path to resolving issues with tadpoles and new metamorphs. 



Allen Repashy said:


> And with there being no downside to including Retinol in a diet or supplement, there is absolutely no reason to try and feed an insectivore a Retinol free diet. There might be some ability to convert carotenoids, but with the documented cases of Retinol toxicity at near zero, why would you eliminate it?


See my comments above on preformed vitamin A and known risk. 



Allen Repashy said:


> I believe the best approach is to include moderate levels of both retinol and carotenoids. Caroteniods ARE important, but for many reasons other than their ability to be converted to Retinol. Retinol is SAFE as a supplement, and toxicity is more a fear than a reality unless someone is using pure retinol as a supplement in high amounts.


Moderate levels are fine but one has to also consider interactions between D3 and preformed A. Also there are differences in absorbtion of carotenoids so what may be appear to be a moderate level in one species may be insufficient in another. 




Allen Repashy said:


> BTW, I am not writing this just to promote my stuff, I am writing it because I do believe that everyone should use a supplement that uses includes Retinol. I don't care if it is my product or not, but do yourself a favor, and if you have trouble with spindly leg, tadpoles that just don't get past a certain size, I believe a lot of these problems can be connected to retinol deficiency. Just don't be afraid of retinol, even in what many herpers consider high amounts..... ALL of these conceptions are based on folklore and misinformation. Listen to your animals, not your critics!


I use you supplement.. 

Ed


----------



## Rain_Frog

Allen, what will be done about naturose added to the supplement? Naturose has been discontinued for animal use and is for human use only now.


----------



## elscotto

I'm also now using Repashy calcium plus icb, in rotation with a couple of other supplements and so far am very happy with it. One additional advantage I think it has is not only does it coat the feeder insects better, it also seems (by judging visually) to stay on the insects much, much longer than the other supplements.
-Scott


----------



## Allen Repashy

Hi Ed,

Great counterpoints!.. I am at the Anaheim show, so will try to get some time Sunday or Monday to pick this back up....

Allen


----------



## Allen Repashy

I have a minute here....

Ed, you said "think this was the tipping point but there was also a lot of problems due to the form of MBD caused by oversupplementating preformed vitamin A which prevent adequate D3 uptake which lent power to that issue."

Can you site or forward any information you have on this subject to me please. It sounds like an interesting read and I have not heard this argument before. Are you talking about supplementation way out of the 1/10/100 E/D-3/A ratio that is considered a good balance? I don't know of many legit supplements that go beyond 1/10/200.. I would think you would have to supplement vitamin A in a pure form to do something like this.

I do believe there are many factors, but to me, I think one thing that is possibly overlooked is the ability of calcium to bind the absorption of many nutrients, especially vitamin A. Leopard geckos for example in the past have suffered Vitamin A deficiency even when fed at high levels because they were on a calcium substrate and consumed so much that it blocked Vitamin A absorbtion (as well as D-3 I would imagine. There are a lot of variables that can contribute to assimilation of nutrients, which is what makes diagnosis and formulation so difficult. 

All I have time for now....

Rain-Frog....

Good question, I was in a bit of a panic a year ago when the folks at cyanotech told me that I couldn't order product anymore..... I was lucky enough to get a hundred kilos out of them, but alas, I am about out, and it's lifespan limits using it any longer even if I had a large supply. I did have them offer me some non conforming to the human market stuff not long ago, but think I have found a better solution. 

I have a friend in the Aquaculture business, whi turned me on to the Naturose originally.... I called him in a panic, and he told me that there was actually a better product out there as far as the fish folks were concerned. Aquaculture uses Astaxanthin to color salmon meat and is the primary user outside the new human market....

Anyways, he turned me on to a product called Ecotone, which is a Phaffia yeast product. It contains about half the astaxanthan as the Naturose, but it is half the price. The interesting thing abot it is that it is in a Non Esterified form, unlike the Algae form which is Naturose. This means the form is more bio available. It also exhibits very good stability, which as we know is very important. 

Other than going to the Synthetic form, I think this product is the answer. Krill astaxanthin would be a great product, but it has not been concentrated enough to consider. 

Synthetic astaxanthin in my opinion would be a downgrade because it represents a narrow band of carotenoids..... a spike so to speak, where the natural forms contain more of a bell curve of carotenoids..... and whatever else good stuff that might be in there that is just being studied......

I have attached three brochures on Ecotone.......

I have already switched my Gecko Diets to this product and bumped the inclusion ratio by 50%, based on what fish folks have done.which I think should be enough to have similar results. I think the ICB changed in the last batch, so keep an eye on the labels for the changes. SuperPig will change soon also. The powder is near the same color as Naturose, and actually a little finer powder. I think it will be a suitable, if not better product than the Naturose. The fish people say it works fabulous and has reduced costs slightly.... I am sure you guys will have to do your own tests.....

Allen


----------



## Allen Repashy

Well, unfortunatley it won't let me upload the pdf spec and info sheets on the Ecotone.... the files are too big  . I can't find these on the company website, but here is a link.

http://www.admworld.com/en-US/products/brands/ecotone/Pages/default.aspx


----------



## Allen Repashy

Trying to cut and paste one of the pdf's:

Pigment Source
Differentiation
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin is distinctly different
from other commercial pigment sources and can be
traced back in the filets of fish fed with this product.
This is important for producers adhering to natural
and/or organic production schemes. Producers can
prove the use of the correct pigment source in the
final product.
ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin, like synthetic
astaxanthin sources, exhibits 100% free, non-esterified
astaxanthin, which is considered advantageous
because it is readily absorbable and must not be
hydrolyzed in the digestive tract of the fish. In contrast
to synthetic astaxanthin, ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin
also consists solely of the optical 3R, 3'R isomer,
an important astaxanthin source in nature. Finally, the
geometrical isomer, all-E, is higher in ADM Ecotone
Phaffia astaxanthin, as compared to synthetic sources.
This contributes to greater efficacy because the all-E
(trans) isomer has greater bioavailability than the
cis isomer.
ADM: Home 217-451-4903 [email protected]
AQUACULTURE
SALMONID
ANIMAL
NUTRITION
© 2005 Archer Daniels Midland Company
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin versus other pigments
Optical isomers (%) Geometrical isomers (%)
Derivation 3R, 3'R 3R, 3'S 3S, 3'S all-E cis
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin 100% free 100 —— —— 90 10
Synthetic sources 100% free 25 50 25 65-75 25-30
Algae products Esterified —— —— ~100
Krill products Mainly esterified 70 10 20
The information contained herein is correct as of the date of this document to the best of our knowledge. Any recommendations or suggestions are made without guarantee or representation
as to results and are subject to change without notice. We suggest you evaluate any recommendations and suggestions independently. WE DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES,
WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Our responsibility for claims arising from any claim for breach of warranty, negligence, or otherwise shall not include consequential, special, or incidental damages, and is limited
to the purchase price of material purchased from us. None of the statements made here shall be construed as a grant, either express or implied, of any license under any patent held by
Archer Daniels Midland Company or other parties. Customers are responsible for obtaining any licenses or other rights that may be necessary to make, use, or sell products containing Archer
Daniels Midland Company ingredients. Ecotone® is a registered trademark of Archer Daniels Midland Company. 86/1205
TECHNICAL DATA
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia
Astaxanthin
For customers around the world, ADM draws on its resources—its people, products, and market
perspective—to help them meet today’s consumer demands and envision tomorrow’s needs.
RESOURCEFUL BY NATURE™
Peisker, 1998.
ADM: Home 217-451-4903 [email protected]
AQUACULTURE
SALMONID
ANIMAL
NUTRITION
© 2005 Archer Daniels Midland Company
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin versus other pigments
Optical isomers (%) Geometrical isomers (%)
Derivation 3R, 3'R 3R, 3'S 3S, 3'S all-E cis
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin 100% free 100 —— —— 90 10
Synthetic sources 100% free 25 50 25 65-75 25-30
Algae products Esterified —— —— ~100
Krill products Mainly esterified 70 10 20
Pigment Source
Differentiation
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin is distinctly different
from other commercial pigment sources and can be
traced back in the filets of fish fed with this product.
This is important for producers adhering to natural
and/or organic production schemes. Producers can
prove the use of the correct pigment source in the
final product.
ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin, like synthetic
astaxanthin sources, exhibits 100% free, non-esterified
astaxanthin, which is considered advantageous
because it is readily absorbable and must not be
hydrolyzed in the digestive tract of the fish. In contrast
to synthetic astaxanthin, ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin
also consists solely of the optical 3R, 3'R isomer,
an important astaxanthin source in nature. Finally, the
geometrical isomer, all-E, is higher in ADM Ecotone
Phaffia astaxanthin, as compared to synthetic sources.
This contributes to greater efficacy because the all-E
(trans) isomer has greater bioavailability than the
cis isomer.
The information contained herein is correct as of the date of this document to the best of our knowledge. Any recommendations or suggestions are made without guarantee or representation
as to results and are subject to change without notice. We suggest you evaluate any recommendations and suggestions independently. WE DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES,
WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Our responsibility for claims arising from any claim for breach of warranty, negligence, or otherwise shall not include consequential, special, or incidental damages, and is limited
to the purchase price of material purchased from us. None of the statements made here shall be construed as a grant, either express or implied, of any license under any patent held by
Archer Daniels Midland Company or other parties. Customers are responsible for obtaining any licenses or other rights that may be necessary to make, use, or sell products containing Archer
Daniels Midland Company ingredients. Ecotone® is a registered trademark of Archer Daniels Midland Company. 86/1205
TECHNICAL DATA
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia
Astaxanthin
For customers around the world, ADM draws on its resources—its people, products, and market
perspective—to help them meet today’s consumer demands and envision tomorrow’s needs.
RESOURCEFUL BY NATURE™
Peisker, 1998.

Stability of ADM Ecotone®
Phaffia Astaxanthin
in Feeds
Because astaxanthin is known to be very sensitive to
oxidization, a comparative study was performed using
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin and synthetic
astaxanthin as pigment sources in salmon feed. Three
supplementation levels were tested: 40, 55, and 70
ppm. All diets were extruded and the pellets subjected
to an accelerated storage test in a laboratory climate
chamber (temperature 27° ±2° C, relative humidity
80% ±5%, open bags).
Astaxanthin recoveries, after extrusion in dried and
oil-coated pellets, were 91-95% for ADM Ecotone
Phaffia astaxanthin and 89-98% for synthetic astaxanthin.
Storage losses occurred over time under the tested
conditions but were not significantly different
between the tested products. The astaxanthin inclusion
level had no effect on process or storage stability.
No significant difference could be determined between
ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin and synthetic astaxanthin
in terms of processing and storage of fish feeds.
Stability of ADM Ecotone®
Phaffia Astaxanthin in
Filets and Processing
Studies in Chile have confirmed that the stability of
astaxanthin from ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin in
frozen filets and smoked, frozen filets does not differ
from synthetic astaxanthin sources. The same holds
true for the water-retaining properties of the filets.
A leading fish processor in the E.U. has confirmed
these results with a large processing trial. In this trial,
the stability of ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin and
synthetic astaxanthin was evaluated at the critical
processing steps, as shown in the below table. At each
critical step, there was no difference between the two
pigment sources.
www.admworld.com 217-451-4903 [email protected]
Roche ColourCard® values in a salmon processing plant*
Synthetic astaxanthin ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin
*avg. *avg.
n=10
Sigma
n=30 Sigma
Fileting 14.65 0.47 14.97 0.39
Salt penetration (4h) 14.5* 0.41 14.85** 0.30
Drying 14.75 0.26 15.02 0.31
Smoking 14.8 0.26 15.08 0.27
Packaging 14.9 0.39 14.88 0.31
Full trial data available upon request. **after washing off the salt crust
ECO 02-01
Processing step
AQUACULTURE
SALMONID
ANIMAL
NUTRITION
© 2005 Archer Daniels Midland Company
TRIAL DATA AND STUDIES
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia
Astaxanthin
The information contained herein is correct as of the date of this document to the best of our knowledge. Any recommendations or suggestions are made without guarantee or representation
as to results and are subject to change without notice. We suggest you evaluate any recommendations and suggestions independently. WE DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES,
WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Our responsibility for claims arising from any claim for breach of warranty, negligence, or otherwise shall not include consequential, special, or incidental damages, and is limited
to the purchase price of material purchased from us. None of the statements made here shall be construed as a grant, either express or implied, of any license under any patent held by
Archer Daniels Midland Company or other parties. Customers are responsible for obtaining any licenses or other rights that may be necessary to make, use, or sell products containing Archer
Daniels Midland Company ingredients. Ecotone® is a registered trademark of Archer Daniels Midland Company. ColourCard® is a registered trademark of Roche. 84/1205
For customers around the world, ADM draws on its resources—its people, products, and market
perspective—to help them meet today’s consumer demands and envision tomorrow’s needs.
RESOURCEFUL BY NATURE™
Roche ColourCard® values in a salmon processing plant*
Synthetic astaxanthin ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin
*avg. *avg.
n=10
Sigma
n=30 Sigma
Fileting 14.65 0.47 14.97 0.39
Salt penetration (4h) 14.5* 0.41 14.85** 0.30
Drying 14.75 0.26 15.02 0.31
Smoking 14.8 0.26 15.08 0.27
Packaging 14.9 0.39 14.88 0.31
Full trial data available upon request. **after washing off the salt crust
ECO 02-01
Processing step
www.admworld.com 217-451-4903 [email protected]
AQUACULTURE
SALMONID
ANIMAL
NUTRITION
© 2005 Archer Daniels Midland Company
Stability of ADM Ecotone®
Phaffia Astaxanthin
in Feeds
Because astaxanthin is known to be very sensitive to
oxidization, a comparative study was performed using
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia astaxanthin and synthetic
astaxanthin as pigment sources in salmon feed. Three
supplementation levels were tested: 40, 55, and 70
ppm. All diets were extruded and the pellets subjected
to an accelerated storage test in a laboratory climate
chamber (temperature 27° ±2° C, relative humidity
80% ±5%, open bags).
Astaxanthin recoveries, after extrusion in dried and
oil-coated pellets, were 91-95% for ADM Ecotone
Phaffia astaxanthin and 89-98% for synthetic astaxanthin.
Storage losses occurred over time under the tested
conditions but were not significantly different
between the tested products. The astaxanthin inclusion
level had no effect on process or storage stability.
No significant difference could be determined between
ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin and synthetic astaxanthin
in terms of processing and storage of fish feeds.
Stability of ADM Ecotone®
Phaffia Astaxanthin in
Filets and Processing
Studies in Chile have confirmed that the stability of
astaxanthin from ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin in
frozen filets and smoked, frozen filets does not differ
from synthetic astaxanthin sources. The same holds
true for the water-retaining properties of the filets.
A leading fish processor in the E.U. has confirmed
these results with a large processing trial. In this trial,
the stability of ADM Ecotone Phaffia astaxanthin and
synthetic astaxanthin was evaluated at the critical
processing steps, as shown in the below table. At each
critical step, there was no difference between the two
pigment sources.
TRIAL DATA AND STUDIES
ADM Ecotone® Phaffia
Astaxanthin
The information contained herein is correct as of the date of this document to the best of our knowledge. Any recommendations or suggestions are made without guarantee or representation
as to results and are subject to change without notice. We suggest you evaluate any recommendations and suggestions independently. WE DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES,
WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
Our responsibility for claims arising from any claim for breach of warranty, negligence, or otherwise shall not include consequential, special, or incidental damages, and is limited
to the purchase price of material purchased from us. None of the statements made here shall be construed as a grant, either express or implied, of any license under any patent held by
Archer Daniels Midland Company or other parties. Customers are responsible for obtaining any licenses or other rights that may be necessary to make, use, or sell products containing Archer
Daniels Midland Company ingredients. Ecotone® is a registered trademark of Archer Daniels Midland Company. ColourCard® is a registered trademark of Roche. 84/1205
For customers around the world, ADM draws on its resources—its people, products, and market
perspective—to help them meet today’s consumer demands and envision tomorrow’s needs.
RESOURCEFUL BY NATURE™


----------



## Ed

Hi Allen,

Take your time.. I can certainly wait to hear your thoughts on the topic.. I've been pulling together information on amphibian nutrition for more than a twenty years now and am happy to discuss it with someone.. as I'm always looking for more information. 




Allen Repashy said:


> I have a minute here....
> 
> Ed, you said "think this was the tipping point but there was also a lot of problems due to the form of MBD caused by oversupplementating preformed vitamin A which prevent adequate D3 uptake which lent power to that issue."
> 
> Can you site or forward any information you have on this subject to me please. It sounds like an interesting read and I have not heard this argument before. Are you talking about supplementation way out of the 1/10/100 E/D-3/A ratio that is considered a good balance? I don't know of many legit supplements that go beyond 1/10/200.. I would think you would have to supplement vitamin A in a pure form to do something like this.


If you go back into the literature such as Frye's first edition on reptile medicine and husbandry, there are extensive discussions on this as a causative problem in addition to the problems seen with respect inapproprate phosphorus to calcium ratios. 
I am referring to ratios out of the 1:10:100 ratios.. It is possible (in the old days (I am talking about back prior to 1990) if a supplement for example was incorrected formulated, old or exposed to excessive temperatures.. (there are also anecdotal reports on Frognet and Dendroboard of this early symptoms (termors/seizures) of hypovitaminosis of D3 occuring with some retinol containing supplements imported from overseas during the hot months of the year). 



Allen Repashy said:


> I do believe there are many factors, but to me, I think one thing that is possibly overlooked is the ability of calcium to bind the absorption of many nutrients, especially vitamin A. Leopard geckos for example in the past have suffered Vitamin A deficiency even when fed at high levels because they were on a calcium substrate and consumed so much that it blocked Vitamin A absorbtion (as well as D-3 I would imagine. There are a lot of variables that can contribute to assimilation of nutrients, which is what makes diagnosis and formulation so difficult. .


Allen, I am well aware of the interference of excess dietary calcium on micronutrients like zinc and if fed in excess with a high fat diet the issues posed by inhibition of absorbtion of nutrients by calcium soaps (Nutriton chapter in Mader's text for example) but I haven't seen any reference to inhibition of absorbtion of fat soluble vitamins when fed at less than about 3% of the diet (as dry matter). 

Ed


----------



## Allen Repashy

I am definitely taking about more than 3% calcium DMB... I dont see a reason to use more than 2% based on my own trials with my Gecko diet as fed exclusively. I started 10 years ago at 2.5% calcium, and am now nearer 1.5% with improvements all the way down ..... Some things to think about also are how different vitamins degrade... in my own results from sending diets to the lab during aging/heat tests.... the form of A I use (there are many 'forms' availble from DSM/Rosche who I use) I have found that the Vitamin A degrades quicker than the D-3 does.... So at least in my experience, your observations/comments are a surprising..... but other forms could be different...

Something else to get you thinking while I am away..... Have you done much studying on the use of Dietary 25-OHD3?  It is VERY interesting stuff!!!


----------



## Allen Repashy

Ok, I gotta jump in one more time before I fall asleep..... though it isn't easy when I am thinking about subjects like this...... Your example of the case of feedback from the board members on imported products that use retinol which could have been exposed to heat....... my first impression based on my testing would be that the hypovitamintosis of D3 could be due to degredation of the D3 due to heat that is outside the relationship of D3 to A ratios... I don't think you would see degredation of one without the other.... the question is as you point out, what is the final ratio? ..... but equally, if not more important, is the actual final level of one, or both, that could is the culprit. 
As a feed formulator, degredation and stability, and how they can be different between vitamins, and even forms of the same vitamin is very frustrating. ...... 

And how different manufacturers label their product is a whole other story..... Do they use the inclusion ratio.... a ratio tested the day after they make it, six months after they make it...... Basing a product on what it says on the label is like pulling an arm on a slot machine imho..... The only real test is long term use, and educated discussion and feedback.... which I get the feeling is the M.O. here.......

You don't see me jumping in on threads at Kingsnake about stuff like this... I tried a few times, but it ended in total frustration... 

What is the most frustrating is the fact that the more I learn, the less I know!

Over


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Allen, you said that the vitamin A degrades quicker than the vitamin D3 does, and if that is true then the ratio of A to D3 to E will change as the vitamins degrade at different rates. So, how long will the ICB last with the 100:10:1 ratio of A to D3 to E before degradation causes the ratio to change, i.e. if someone wanted to maintain feeding with that ratio how often would they have to purchase a new ICB supplement?


----------



## Ed

Allen Repashy said:


> Ok, I gotta jump in one more time before I fall asleep..... though it isn't easy when I am thinking about subjects like this...... Your example of the case of feedback from the board members on imported products that use retinol which could have been exposed to heat....... my first impression based on my testing would be that the hypovitamintosis of D3 could be due to degredation of the D3 due to heat that is outside the relationship of D3 to A ratios... I don't think you would see degredation of one without the other.... the question is as you point out, what is the final ratio? ..... but equally, if not more important, is the actual final level of one, or both, that could is the culprit.
> As a feed formulator, degredation and stability, and how they can be different between vitamins, and even forms of the same vitamin is very frustrating. ......



With respect to this issue, the premise I have been working off of, is the report in the literature that there is catalyzed oxidation of D3 by A in complete multivitamins mixtures under those conditions which changes the end ratios of A to D3 to below the optimal ratios allowing A to outcompete the D3. (Both degrade but the in the litureature it appears that D3 degrades more quickly than A. (unpublished study referenced in Maders book). 




Allen Repashy said:


> And how different manufacturers label their product is a whole other story..... Do they use the inclusion ratio.... a ratio tested the day after they make it, six months after they make it...... Basing a product on what it says on the label is like pulling an arm on a slot machine imho..... The only real test is long term use, and educated discussion and feedback.... which I get the feeling is the M.O. here.......


According to the Exotic animal nutritionist I deal with at work, her experience is that the common practice is to include the expected ratios of the mix on the label which is as you have noted a problem. This is why analysis post mixing and stability testing of the whole product several months after manufacture is expensive but essential.



Allen Repashy said:


> You don't see me jumping in on threads at Kingsnake about stuff like this... I tried a few times, but it ended in total frustration...
> 
> What is the most frustrating is the fact that the more I learn, the less I know!
> 
> Over


This is also why I don't both with Kingsnake forums either.. but the more I search the more I learn... for example I didn't expect to find evidence of different isomer use of preformed A in tadpoles... this would also indicate that carnivorous tadpoles like those of Ceratophrys ssp may utilize both... there are a lot of implications there. 

I'm not totally awake but I have to run off to work. 
Allen concentrate on the show.. you need to make money to have time to have these discussions with us hobbyists... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Allen Repashy said:


> I am definitely taking about more than 3% calcium DMB... I dont see a reason to use more than 2% based on my own trials with my Gecko diet as fed exclusively. I started 10 years ago at 2.5% calcium, and am now nearer 1.5% with improvements all the way down ..... Some things to think about also are how different vitamins degrade... in my own results from sending diets to the lab during aging/heat tests.... the form of A I use (there are many 'forms' availble from DSM/Rosche who I use) I have found that the Vitamin A degrades quicker than the D-3 does.... So at least in my experience, your observations/comments are a surprising..... but other forms could be different...
> 
> Something else to get you thinking while I am away..... Have you done much studying on the use of Dietary 25-OHD3?  It is VERY interesting stuff!!!


Tangentially on the vitamin D stuff... I'm still working on wrapping my head around all of the carotenoid/retinol/pigmentation pathways. 

Some relevent comments below after your other post. 

I'm with you on the calcium stuff.. 

Ed


----------



## Marinarawr

I think this thread needs a sticky! The information posted on amphibian ( and insectivorous reptile) nutrition here is mind-boggling for a layman like myself. Thanks to both Allen and Ed for taking their time to make such in-depth posts on the subject.


----------



## markbudde

Does anyone have recent success or failure stories using repashy? The thread here (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/45200-repashy-supplements-sls.html) is pretty encouraging and I am thinking of changing to almost exclusive use of Repashy ICB. Has anyone noticed overdose effects with it?


----------



## ChrisK

Can't say for sure but: My Uyamas are breeding for about 6 months now and the eggs are always bad, about 2 months ago I started adding spirulina to the ff medium (power mix) and about a month ago started with Repashy Calcium plus ICB once a week in a rotation with Herptivite and Repcal (feeding 3x a week), and a tadpole has formed in their latest clutch


----------



## Alpha Pro Breeders

I had a few pairs that only produced bad eggs, after adding Repashy Supermin and ICB their producing good eggs now. Not 100% sure if it was from the Repashy vitamins, but this seems to happening a lot.




markbudde said:


> Does anyone have recent success or failure stories using repashy? The thread here (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/45200-repashy-supplements-sls.html) is pretty encouraging and I am thinking of changing to almost exclusive use of Repashy ICB. Has anyone noticed overdose effects with it?


----------



## Dane

I'll also chime in to report that I have seen slightly better breeding/egg quality since adding Repashy ICB to my normal dusting regimen.


----------



## Allen Repashy

Corpus Callosum said:


> Allen, you said that the vitamin A degrades quicker than the vitamin D3 does, and if that is true then the ratio of A to D3 to E will change as the vitamins degrade at different rates. So, how long will the ICB last with the 100:10:1 ratio of A to D3 to E before degradation causes the ratio to change, i.e. if someone wanted to maintain feeding with that ratio how often would they have to purchase a new ICB supplement?


Sorry I was away so long from this board. Things have been a little hectic around here. I just got some new analysis results back from DCPAH that I am pretty happy about. I have been testing different available "Forms" of retinol from DSM. I have been getting premix samples, the storing them in a hot place.... and sending them in over six month increments for analysis to measure degradation.. About a year ago I switched my Retinol "Form" in my formula based on a six month analysis, and I just got back my new 6 and 12 month results and am stoked to see two things..... first, the stability in this form has been excellent compared to other forms. and second, the degradation has pretty much stayed spot on with vitamin D as far as the ratio goes... but more importantly, the vitamin A and D are nearly rock solid at 12 months!

And to top it off, this form has the smallest particle size of all the retinol "Forms" and is what DSM calles their "Water Soluble" form, kind of an oxymoron for a fat soluble vitamin, but they say that for whatever reason, it is the most bio available form. I need to find out more about this. The very small particle size is a really important factor for a dusting product. 

I will share some numbers with you here.... I don't really worry about other manufacturers stealing my ideas because none of them really seem to be actively developing product.... and if they do.... it is only good for the animals, and I would rather know that herp nutrition is improving than sell a few more jars of the stuff...

Anyways, here we go.... this is on the stored premix. I am only testing for Retinol and Cholecalciferol activity because these tests aren't cheap. each activity test costs me $136.00.....

Also, note that I am testing only the premix. I tried testing the final products, and got a call from the Lab Boss Dr Tom after I sent my first samples and he said.....something like this: "We are having a really difficult time measuring Retinol in your samples. We have never had a problem like this before. Something is really interfering with our interpretation of the retinol. There is a LOT of stuff in your sample that is making it hard for us to separate pure retinol from other very similar substances to the point we can't accurately tell the difference and accurately give you a result...... Are you adding a lot of caroteniods to your product? "  I had to laugh, and then proudly tell him all the ingredients I am using.

He asked me if I could send him a sample without the carotenoid rich ingredients, and I told him that it would change the formula by more than 5%..... so I elected to just test the premix...

This means that in some of my products such as my crested gecko diet, the 5% fat content and other ingredients could increase the degradation rate significantly. The stability of the Calcium Plus ICB should be quite good since it has virtually no fat in it........ 

So as formulated from DSM: the premix I use is labeled as: Vitamin A activity: 4,800,000 iu/kg. Vitamin D Activity: 400,000 iu/kg

My 6 month premix results: Vitamin A activity 4,895,100. vitamin D 418,000
12 month Vitamin A activity 4,828,500 Vitamin D 394,000

So i appears that DSM cheats a bit to make sure their product is good at the end of their advertised shelf life.... but I am very impressed by the results I got back because I kept these premixes in a cargo container... the big kind they put on boats.... a burgundy colored one that sat outside in full sun! for the duration of the test.... temps through the summer got up to 125 degrees inside the container!

The test I did in the past with the other forms showed nearly a 25% degredation of retinol under these conditions..... So while not done scientifically with controls and all that, I think these tests are significant and might be of interest to you guys because not much real world testing is being done like this.

Cheers, Allen


----------



## Allen Repashy

Hmm.... seems the attachments got shrunk down so small you can hardly read them


----------



## JoshK

Thank you very much Allen! I'm sure I speak for many of us when I say your efforts in improving supplements as we know them is very much appreciated. Within the next six months I plan on using the Repashy products exclusively.


----------



## Marinarawr

Yes thank you Allen!! I'm impressed with the stability that those tests showed. With this information when do you recommend replacing the ICB due to age?

I've noticed a great improvement in the amount of powder staying on the flies since switching from the Herptivite/RepCal pairing (I'm trying the ICB exclusively atm). It seems that feeders uneaten will have traces of the powder remaining for quite some time (I've observed some left on the bugs after an hour, even though only a hint). Another really pleasant surprise was that even with more dust on the feeders, frogs that were prone to spitting out heavily dusted bugs are no longer rejecting any, and are taking them all on the first try. I don't know if it's because of the more organic smell/flavor (fruity) or because it's finer... That's been my experience anyway.


----------



## Allen Repashy

I think that even though this particular test shows that the premix is at full strength after a year, I would still recommend that you change it out at one year intervals just to be sure... Like I said, degradation could be higher in a non premix formula, and because I haven't been to accurately test the final product, I would err to the conservative side. I will do an 18 month test in about 4 more months on the premix to see what has happened... 

I think eliminating all variables possible is how to get consistent results, so why run the risk of even a 10% variation when you are trying to develop a sucessful protocol. 

Please understand I am only speaking for my products here and can not judge other products that use different ingredients. And to REALLY eliminate fluctuations, I still recommend that all supplements, mine or others, be refrigerated (not frozen) whenever possible. Opened, or Unopened containers.

Cheers, Allen


----------



## markbudde

Why not frozen? Does it break down some of the vitamins? If you are going to refrigerate or freeze them, make sure that you let them warm up before opening them or you risk having condensation form on the vitamins, which is bad.


----------



## Allen Repashy

Freezing vitamins and the effects is a topic of contraversy I think the possibility that it can have negative effects is likely, and with the stability at refrigerated temps being quite effective, why take the chance. DSM says don't freeze it, and that's good enough for me.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

markbudde said:


> If you are going to refrigerate or freeze them, make sure that you let them warm up before opening them or you risk having condensation form on the vitamins, which is bad.


You can also use a desiccant packet in with your vitamins.


----------



## Allen Repashy

A good idea is to refrigerate whatever you aren't going to use in a few weeks, and just keep out a small jar that contains what you need for that short time. Dessicant packs can work too, but run out of activity pretty quickly depending on conditions


----------



## markbudde

Allen Repashy said:


> A good idea is to refrigerate whatever you aren't going to use in a few weeks, and just keep out a small jar that contains what you need for that short time. Dessicant packs can work too, but run out of activity pretty quickly depending on conditions


Yeah, I keep mine in the freezer and remove some into a jar every few months, but I guess now I'll start keeping them in the fridge. I suspect that if you are getting into them several times a week, keeping them cool is likely to do more harm than good.


----------



## Philsuma

Allen,

Thanks for attending to this thread so thoroughly. There are numerous people here that look forward to using a quality supplement, I am sure.

BTW....an old reptiles magazine issue......that's you posing for a photo with a frilled dragon in full attack more on your shoulder right?


----------



## Allen Repashy

Yeah, that was me... nearly 17 years ago LOL


----------



## frogfreak

Is this advancing the hobby or what...

Thanks for all the detailed info Allen!


----------



## markbudde

Allen, thanks for all the info. I appreciate all the work you've put into helping out our herps. In the premix, is there anything besides vitamin a and d? Such as calcium?
Thanks,
Mark


----------



## sbreland

Ok, now this is the kind of discussion I have missed on here... 

Thanks Allen for chiming in here and explaining everything for us. Ed is a great resource for us here on this board and now having you adding to the mix is good for a lot of us to learn new stuff. I mean, how often do you get to do Q&A with the developer of any product so I want to say thanks for taking the time to lay all this out. Very good info here...


----------



## Dragonfly

Allen, you can definitely add me to the folks thrilled to have you participating here.

I love, love, and did I say love the calcium + ICB and am planning on getting the supermin. I love the way it sticks, the way my frogs love it, the way it smells and I have been sold for a long time on the crested gecko diet.... now if you could just get vitamins that my son would take reliably...


----------



## Allen Repashy

This is some good info for those who want to really study the Vitamin A-D3 ratio relationship. If Ed still monitors this thread, I think he would enjoy it..... might be over the top for most hobbyists though. Especially interesting is the use of 25ohd3 and how it works differently from D3 alone

Allen

The Influence of Vitamin A on the Utilization and Amelioration of
Toxicity of Cholecalciferol, 25-Hydroxycholecalciferol, and
1,25 Dihydroxycholecalciferol in Young Broiler Chickens


----------



## markbudde

Nice find Allen. Thanks!


----------



## james67

i just started using repashy icb in my rotation and i can say that with no other changes my man creeks have begun to produce tads that morph into froglets, after nearly a year of sls issues (with only repcal and herptivite)

james


----------



## temscbame

Is Repashy ICB avalible in stores or just on the net? I went to Petco and petsmart today to look for it. I didn't find any.
Tim


----------



## Ed

Allen Repashy said:


> This is some good info for those who want to really study the Vitamin A-D3 ratio relationship. If Ed still monitors this thread, I think he would enjoy it..... might be over the top for most hobbyists though. Especially interesting is the use of 25ohd3 and how it works differently from D3 alone
> 
> Allen
> 
> The Influence of Vitamin A on the Utilization and Amelioration of
> Toxicity of Cholecalciferol, 25-Hydroxycholecalciferol, and
> 1,25 Dihydroxycholecalciferol in Young Broiler Chickens


I printed it out so I can read over it. Thanks Allen,

it looks interesting but on a very incomplete and brief scan it looks like while it reduces the risk of toxicity of D3 and its isomers, the vitamin A still reduced bone density (as shown by the lower ash levels.) but my glance at it could have left me with the wrong impression... 

Thanks again,

Ed


----------



## Marinarawr

Unfortunately chain pet stores aren't terribly savvy, let alone cutting edge, when it comes to reptile and amphibian care (this is in my experience of course). That's not to say that they don't occasionally have a dedicated hobbyist as an employee... Anyway, you can go directly to Allen Repashy's website, Joshs Frogs, or Brians Tropicals. Those are the only places that I can recall seeing it for sale.


----------



## Bcs TX

I recently bought the Repashy SuperPig supplement and am feeding it to my frogs 1 time a week and rotate it along with the ICB and Supermin and the usual Rep-Cal and Herptivite.

I am happy with the ones I have been using, seemed to help my auratus tads get throught the embryo stage. Have some great looking tads now.

The first time I used the Superpig was very suprised by the smell. Smells like taco seasoning. 

-Beth


----------



## Alpha Pro Breeders

Marinarawr said:


> Unfortunately chain pet stores aren't terribly savvy, let alone cutting edge, when it comes to reptile and amphibian care (this is in my experience of course). That's not to say that they don't occasionally have a dedicated hobbyist as an employee... Anyway, you can go directly to Allen Repashy's website, Joshs Frogs, or Brians Tropicals. Those are the only places that I can recall seeing it for sale.


We also carry it.

Alpha Pro Breeders


----------



## Tony

Marinarawr said:


> Unfortunately chain pet stores aren't terribly savvy, let alone cutting edge, when it comes to reptile and amphibian care (this is in my experience of course).


So true. I have seen it in both major chain stores, but it's hit or miss whether a particular location will have it.


----------



## Allen Repashy

You are much better off getting it from an online dealer or expo vendor. Or better yet, get your local specialty reptile store to bring it in  The T-Rex products are available at the big box pet stores but you just don't know how long it has been sitting on that shelf. I have seen product that is five years old still sitting on the shelf.... They often stockpile in distribution centers and if it doesn't move fast it will take them a really long time to move through product. Every year, I tweak the formulas a bit here and there based on feedback, research, and testing, so something that isn't fresh wouldn't be the current formula, and could be degraded from shelf life also.

Cheers, Allen


----------



## Fishman

And thank you for your work Allen. your suppliment may not be the only influence that improved my frogs breeding, but at the same time that I added your product to my rotation production went way up. So thank you, keep up the great work!


----------



## Dragas

Marinarawr said:


> I've noticed a great improvement in the amount of powder staying on the flies since switching from the Herptivite/RepCal pairing (I'm trying the ICB exclusively atm). It seems that feeders uneaten will have traces of the powder remaining for quite some time (I've observed some left on the bugs after an hour, even though only a hint).



I have noticed the exact opposite. 30 seconds and the flies are dust free. I had to switch back to reptical.


----------



## Marinarawr

Interesting. I wonder what's happening differently... Do your flies get dumped onto a wet/damp surface? I try to empty the flies on a dry piece of leaf or wood in each tank.


----------



## Philsuma

Dragas said:


> I have noticed the exact opposite. 30 seconds and the flies are dust free. I had to switch back to reptical.


Interesting.....don't discard the powder. I would mix it with another brand and continue to use - mixed, once and a while.


----------



## Ed

Just regrind what you are going to dust with right before you use it. When I've done this, I've had it persist as long as 24 hours on small crickets. 

Ed


----------



## jubjub47

Also keep in mind that one of the two supplements goes on as a brownish powder and when it's coating the flies it almost appears to not be there.


----------



## Philsuma

I told myself, I was going to find that old issue of Reptiles magazine....and I did.

This pic goes out to all of us "old heads".....Scott M, Ed, Myself possibly...and of course- ALLEN


----------



## Boondoggle

LOL...now I remember that!


----------



## jubjub47

I totally remember that. What year is that in?


----------



## Ed

I have that one some where... 

Ed


----------



## Allen Repashy

Wow, 

I used to have hair on my head LOL.

That pic was taken around 1990.... probably in the magazine around 91' or 92' ..... Man, 20 years has come and gone


----------



## somecanadianguy

Allen Repashy said:


> Wow,
> 
> I used to have hair on my head LOL.
> 
> That pic was taken around 1990.... probably in the magazine around 91' or 92' ..... Man, 20 years has come and gone


dont feel bad a few of us had more hair when we read that lol 
craig


----------



## Bcs TX

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, I realize that the superpig works on Red, yellow and orange frogs to enhance coloring. Does it contain any ingredients, not color inhancers that help with frogs of other spectrums, ie. blue?

Would you mind explaining what in the ingredients smell like taco mix?

I have heard some people wondering how to crush it up finer due to the "off color" granules. Does not bother me but thought I would inquire.

Thanks in advance.

-Beth


----------



## srrrio

Bcs TX said:


> Would you mind explaining what in the ingredients smell like taco mix?
> 
> -Beth


I am also very curious about that! 

Sally


----------



## Allen Repashy

The best way to pulverize it is with a cheap mortar and pestle you can get at most restaurant supply places or online I am working on getting a machine that will reduce the particle size to about 10 microns, but it costs $98,000! Yes.... I have been learning about particle reduction, and to get things down to about a 300 mesh size is VERY expensive as far as production goes. It requires a machine called an air classifier mill. Right now I am looking at a used one, or finding someone local who has one that I can pay to grind my superpig. The calcium carbonate I use in the calcium plus I have reground by the manufacturer to a 3.5micron average particle size, while all other calcium supplements I am aware of have an average particle size of 250 microns!....

This is what gives my product such a good stick, though some people think it falls off quickly because they can't see it anymore..... actually, the particles are so small that the moisture of the insect makes them clear like glass... but they are still there.....

I have no idea which of the three ingredients smells like taco sauce because I don't smell that when I take a sniff LOL. There are only three ingredients, so it is one of them  In a few weeks I will be adding more great carotenoid sources to the formula to increase the spectrum of carotenoids. 

I will be adding Hybiscus flower petal powder, Calendula flower petal powder, Rose Hips Powder, Paprika Powder, and Chanterelle Mushroom powder after several weeks of intensive study on the subject. 
This will provide a wide spectrum of carotenoids which should better replicate the variety ingested in nature. 

I really think carotenoids are a huge part of the nutritional puzzle and they do much more than just provide the potential for color enhancement. 

I also would like to thank Ed for our round of of site communication on the subject and the contributions he made to the new formulation.

Allen


----------



## Ed

Allen Repashy said:


> I really think carotenoids are a huge part of the nutritional puzzle and they do much more than just provide the potential for color enhancement.
> 
> I also would like to thank Ed for our round of of site communication on the subject and the contributions he made to the new formulation.
> 
> Allen


Your very welcome Allen. 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

why chanterelles? the color?


----------



## Allen Repashy

Chanterelle Mushrooms are one of the only natural sources of Canthaxanthin. I feel that low levels of Canthaxanthin are a great addition to the full spectrum of carotenoids. At $40.00 a pound, I can't afford to use much though.....


----------



## frogparty

Thats very intertesting, thanks fior the reply
Do you feel canthaxanthin increases yellow pigments?


----------



## Catfur

Allen Repashy said:


> Chanterelle Mushrooms are one of the only natural sources of Canthaxanthin. I feel that low levels of Canthaxanthin are a great addition to the full spectrum of carotenoids. At $40.00 a pound, I can't afford to use much though.....


Pretty sure that large doses of canthaxanthin have been associated with liver toxicity in any case, so it's probably best that you only use it in moderation


----------



## Ed

Catfur said:


> Pretty sure that large doses of canthaxanthin have been associated with liver toxicity in any case, so it's probably best that you only use it in moderation


I wouldn't worry about the levels of canthaxanthin in this supplement. The dosing level is very low (well below levels show to incur toxicity in rats (see 839. Canthaxanthin (WHO Food Additives Series 35))). I have to note that in recent research in carotenoids in preparing a review for Leaf Litter, the metabolism of canthaxanthin is different in birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish and toxicity levels noted in mammals may not be appropriate. 

Ed


----------



## Allen Repashy

Thanks Ed,

I am really trying to come up with a "Full Spectrum" carotenoid supplement and have quite a bit of time searching out a good combination of ingredients to make it as complete as possible. There are a LOT of carotenoids out there, and they each seem to have their own effects/contributions to not just pigmentation, but more importantly, nutrition. As Ed touched on, different animals seem to metabolize carotenoids different ways. Some carotenoids are bound to oxygen (Xanthhophylls) and some are hydrocarbons (carotenes) Some are precursors to vitamin A, some are not. Some are esterified, some are free..... and it seems different life forms can use one type better than another, or possibly not use one at all. Some available forms such as I am using are saponified.... meaning making an esterified form an ester free one that should be more bio available.. changing the picture again.

I must admit, carotenoids really seem to be an understudied group, and there is much more that we don't know than we know about them. Lutein is just now coming to the forefront of human studies where it is showing it's near healing effects on some eye disorders.

The bottom line for us IMHO is that yeah, we know that Astaxanthin will color out a Dendro, but so will some other red carotenoids such as capaxanthin (from Paprika) So rather than rely on one... meaning higher levels are needed, I think it is better to use a more full spectrum approach. 

This will hedge us against the possibility that too much of one might have unforeseen effects, such as has been shown with canthaxanthin in high levels to primates.... high levels of carotenoids, are no different than high levels of vitamins. We all know that vitamins are essential to nutrition, but we also know that too much of an fat soluble vitamin such as Vitamin A and D is a BAD thing. 

We need to look at carotenoids just like we do at vitamins. The main difference is that even for humans, there is no daily recommended value, no high dose threshold.... nothing...... We need them, but how much is the big question. A carotenoid like canthaxanthin, which in high doses with primates for example has shown toxicity could possibly be compared to Vitamin A or D. Meaning that just because it can cause problems at a given level, doesn't mean we don't need or benefit from it at lower ones. 

For us as keepers, if we keep to natural sources, and look at levels that have been found in wild animals...... and look at the fish and poultry work that has been done and is pretty substantial, we can at least get a starting point. 

I will go out on a limb here and say that for example, total carotenoid levels of around 200-300 ppm in an exclusive diet, with no more than 50 ppm of any single carotenoid (lutein might be the exception), would be what I consider a good target. 

If you can get good color from a broad spectrum product, it should be the first choice, and bring along with it more potential nutritional benefits than a single or several source product. I am going from 3, to 8 ingredients in my new formula and hope you all do a little research of your own on why I picked the intredients I did. 

Don't rely on others to just tell you what to do. Start goggling and learn what you can yourself about what you are feeding your charges. I am ALWAYS looking for feedback on my products and people like Ed who had some great input, and maybe YOU can contribute to the progress of herp nutrition.

I have zero formal nutritional background. Everything I have learned has come from talking to the right people, reading a LOT of publications, countless hours on the web.... and then putting my schooling to the big test of trial and error. I will be the first to admit that I follow hunches, and use observation as much as calculation to figure things out. 

I think I can say that there isn't anyone out there working harder at it than I am. There is also no doubt that there is a lot of people out there that know more than I do. And hopefully sooner than later, I will find them! 

Allen


----------



## frogparty

Great info, and one of the most mentally stimulating threads on the board IMHO. Thanks for all the info and continued responses to questions. Youve sold me, Im ordering some.


----------



## Ed

As a little bit of advertising, I've been pulling together a lot of information for a article in Leaf Litter on carotenoid metabolism, vitamin A and pigments for the last couple of years (also partly to assuage my curiosity). As more information has come to light, I've had to revise some of my thoughts on carotenoids.. 

Ed


----------



## FwoGiZ

well I was looking for info lately about supplements and got pointed to repashy, then found this thread...
I thought I might give it a bump or something... maybe not the best thread for a sticky because of how deep it is but still worth a lot if you really wanna improve your animals diet!
Thanks to all you guys, dendroboard and specially Allen and Ed on this one!
keep it up


----------



## stu&shaz

We would also like to thank Allen and Ed and the above poster whom brought this wonderful thread back up,ok very deep in places,alot over my head,but nevertheless fascinating.Thanks Allen for grafting so hard to get this product out,as beginners when we talk to dartsters in the uk about nutritional suppliments,all we hear is...REPASHY. and just a little foot note caught one of my leucs yesterday eating a little orange repashy ball,not attached to anything living that i could see,so it must taste good too.
Thankyou
Stu


----------



## SnorkelWasp

I know this thread is kind of old but I had a few questions.

Mainly: I know when using repcal and herptivite, it is recommended to alternate dustings to avoid nutrient competition among calcium and various nutrients...

I know repashy calcium+ is the closest to thing to a REAL all-in-one supplement. How did you take this nutrient competition into consideration? How is it that there isn't an issue of competition among nutrients with your product? I have a feeling it has to do with proper ratios but I still am not sure.

I am just trying to decide what is the best for my facility. Currently we have been using repcal with d3 (pink label), herptivite, and repashy vitamin A (given monthly, was due to sudden poor egg survival, which I now know was due to unusable vitamin A form in herptivite). We also mix in finely ground spirulina powder once weekly.

I like your products, and would like to have the complete lineup. I just wonder if its better/easier to use calcium +, and every now and then mix in supervite and or superpig? or would it be better, and more complete, to do everything separate? For example, to choose a calcium with proper d3 value (would darts want medium or high d3?), alternate with supervite/pig, and do monthly vitamin a+ dusts.

Complexity and expense aren't the issue, we are wanting COMPLETE nutrition.

Thanks for the good read.


----------



## Allen Repashy

Hi,

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "nutrient competition". 

In fact the whole point of my product is to deliver everything together so that the nutrients can "compliment" each other..... for example, if you give calcium and don't give vitamin D at the same time, which is necessary for absorption, then how is the calcium going to be absorbed..... 

Cheers, Allen


----------



## SnorkelWasp

I knew I wouldn't explain it very well.

Here are some of Ed's posts from this thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-do-you-dust-your-frogs-food-supplements.html
*
"At home I do alternate to avoid interactions but it may not be the one expected. If you alternate, then you avoid the vitamin A-D3-E competition for uptake (which for A-D3 is not a problem for Herpetivite as it used beta-carotene for its source of A but is still an issue for E). This is an immediate issue as the competition occurs in the intestional tract. Alternating also reduces the risks of overdosing on the fat soluable vitamins (remember to keep in mind, these are toxic in too large an amount and amphibians are hardwired during periods of abundence (which is a daily occurance in most frog tanks) to stuff themselves which can lead to oversupplementation. (Oversupplementation can also occur with calcium carbonate).

Ed"*

and

*" If mixed, the fat soluable vitamins will catalyze a more rapid oxidation of each other (which is why Rep-Cal and Herptevite are seperate with one haveing A and E and the other D3) than if they are kept seperate (however they still will oxidize which is why the recommendation is to replace the supplements every six months or so).

However in the digestive tract, A, D3 and E compete for uptake by the animal. This is why the ratio of the vitamins in the supplement should be somewhere close to 10 to 1 to 0.1 (A to D3 to E) as large variations outside of this range can cause deficiencies of one or more of the vitamins (this was (may still be) the most common cause of "MBD" (metabolic bone disease which is actually a group of diseases that present the same symptoms by disrupting calcium metabolism) when the diet contained excessive vitamin A). I have a whopping headache so I am not going to check the labels but you need to make sure that if you are mixing the two before dusting that the resulting ratio of A3 and E are correct which may cause you to change the amount you mix.
By alternating the dustings with the feedings, there is less issue with uptake of the fat soluable vitamins as the frog can store the excess in the fat, liver and skin (depending on the vitamin)..

This also allows for alternation of calcium supplementation as excessive calcium can also cause conditional deficiencies and in extreme excess and a high fat diet cause the deposition of calcium salts in the digestive tract.

If you come to IAD, I will again be presenting a nutritional workshop for amphibians which is expanded from the one I gave last year.

Ed"*

This is kind of what I was leading to...storage of the mixed calcium/vitamins and the uptake from the animal of the mixed calcium/vitamins.

What I take from that and apply to the two different brands:
As long as the ratios are correct and it is within expiration you should be ok?
So for repashy, which has correct ratios, it is all inclusive as long as it is "fresh"
while mixing herptivite and repcal would not be beneficial to mix because the ratio would be hard to determine and could therefore lead to competitive uptake? 
Are those accurate statements? sorry if I am confusing.

Is there any benefit to getting the unmixed supplements and alternative and creating a specific regimine, or is calcium + enough? (do you then recommend an occasional supervite or superpig?)

and is monthly vitamin A+ something I should just be doing monthly regardless of which regimine I choose? (for breeding frogs)


----------



## Dendro Dave

Ya he is actually right about nutrient competition... like phosphorous to calcium ratio may effect absorption or something like that.

for herpcal/herpvite I think most people do about a 50/50 ratio, I error on the side of a bit more calcium just to make sure they get enough without any interference, because I think at 1:1 you are ok on phosphorou/calcium ratio, but below that may get into trouble in the long run??? (been awhile since I read up on all this stuff), which is why I error on the dide of more calcium, or alternate.

For superpig you don't have to use that very often, but probably no harm in mixing a little in with whatever complete multivitamin or vitamin+calcium mix you are using.


----------



## Allen Repashy

That post of Eds was nearly eight years ago and a lot has changed as far as knowledge and understanding of nutrition. He does elude to the necessity of needing the proper levels and ratios of fat soluble vitamins, and that is exactly what my product does. In Calcium plus, the vitamins are balanced to the minerals. When he made that post, my stuff was still pretty much unknown to froggers. If the ratio that these vitamins occur is correct, then there is no competition for uptake. Ed is a really sharp guy, and we correspond quite a bit on a personal level because I respect his opinion and we enjoy sharing scientific publications, but times change and that post was a long time ago. I would be interested to hear Ed's take on this subject now. 

The issues of vitamin stability in a mix was solved when new technology allowed the microencapsulation of vitamins that protect them from oxidation and making them very stable compared to old forms and those still used in many products on the market. 

Allen


----------



## hypostatic

Hey, since Allen is taking part in the discussion, I would like to address a few problems with understanding of the products.

I often read that people supplement their frogs with SuperPig as well as with Cal+. Would doing so have any benefit besides improving the red/orange/yellow coloration of frogs? Since every single ingredient listed on the label of Superpig is also in Cal+, I don't see how there would be any additional nutritional advantage of doing this --especially if the frogs don't have that red pigmentation-- and I would just like this cleared up.

Also, I'm a bit confused about Cal+ and VitA+. Cal+ is supposed to be a standalone product, correct? But I often see on the boards that people are often supplementing VitA+ at a high percentage of the supplementation. Like 1/4 of the time, or 1/3 of the time; especially if they have breeding frogs. Would this indicate that the ratio of vitamin A in Cal+ is too low? Are people's frogs really not getting enough vitamin A?


----------



## Allen Repashy

Calcium Plus does contain superpig at a good level for maintenance. higher levels could be used to bring back color on specimens previously deficient in carotenoids at a much faster rate. Same goes for Vitamin A plus.... Cal plus has long term maintenance levels but can not quickly bring back animals that are showing signs of deficiency or have a known history of lack of retinol.

Carotenoids are very interesting compounds and contribute a lot more than just pigmentation to a diet. Think of them as poorly studied essential vitamins that are lacking in in captive diets because of the missing diversity in feeder species and further, the diet these feeders eat.

Allen


----------



## Ed

Allen Repashy said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "nutrient competition".
> 
> In fact the whole point of my product is to deliver everything together so that the nutrients can "compliment" each other..... for example, if you give calcium and don't give vitamin D at the same time, which is necessary for absorption, then how is the calcium going to be absorbed.....


Hi Allen,

I think he is referring to occasions when the ratio of A (as retinyl palmitate or retinyl acetate) to D3 to E is incorrect. In this case you can get deficiencies as the vitamin that is outside of the correct ratio can change the rate of uptake of the other fat soluble vitamins. The ratio should be as close to 10 to 1 to 0.1 (A to D3 to E) as possible. 

To the OP, Herptivite does not contain a form of vitamin A that is usable by frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## SnorkelWasp

Thanks guys. I did notice the topic was old but I still know a lot of people rotate. Which I still think may be a good practice for people using products other than repashy (which has the correct ratio). And yes Ed, that was what I was referring to.

I am glad I am getting myself up to date, and hope this thread will update others as well. This was a great read. I searched for literally hours on supplement debates, but this is by far the most thorough and well thought out. I hope to continue it in that direction.

I am aware herptivite had no usable vitamin A. That is actually what has made me start to really dive back into supplementation research. Some of my frogs have had a decline is egg fertility. Upon researching my regimen, I see that it may not be everything it should.

What are you currently using Ed? All repashy? any rotation at all?

Thanks again


----------

