# Build - 24x18x18 First Vivarium



## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

To get you up to speed: This thread was moved from the Beginner's Discussion. I had initially tried to create a vivarium in a tank that was inadequate size wise, used a substrate that doesn't drain well, and in a tank that had poor ventilation. I have since started a new tank, a Zilla 24x18x18 tank, to remedy these issues in hopes of keeping frogs at some point. The first few posts are related to the old tank, but around post 6 or so you will begin to see the new build.

Inspiration/Resources used for building the new tank:
@Lunatuck 's own 24x18x18 build thread: My 18x18x24 build...
@Tijl 's build using filter mat and cork background: 70x50x65cm Vivarium Build.
@TolaItalo 's design in this vivarium: https://www.dendroboard.com/cdn-cgi...92b0-5f9b-42e7-9554-1b2893707e96-jpeg.299506/
Troy Goldberg's Background Tutorials on YT.
*___*

Hi everyone,

I recently constructed a vivarium out of a broken aquarium. I am curious to see what people think on it's suitability for housing a frog or two. I'll include the information regarding the tank below. Open to constructive criticism.

Tank:
18 inches long, 18 inches tall, and 10 inches wide
Glass on all sides, but there is a small 4 x 6 inch opening at the top

Lighting:
Daylight strip LEDs - was previously used on an aquarium

Substrate:
Top layer is a mix of sphagnum moss, reptibark and coconut coir
Middle layer is charcoal
False-bottom is a few 2 inch PVCs siliconed to the bottom glass, with eggcrate and fine mesh on top
Added some springtails

Background:
Constructed from cork sheet. Siliconed cork sheet in place, then placed another layer of silicone over it, and pressed coconut coir and reptibark to the surface.

Planting:
Marcgravia sp.
Peperomia 'Grey Luna'
Crocodile fern
and more...

I don't have a humidity or temperature monitor on it yet, but my room temp is between 65-73F and I see condensation on the glass.

I planted the tank 2-3 days ago, I've been water a little too frequently and am noticing some die back in the plants, so I am decreasing misting. Misting using RODI water.

I will add a layer of leaf litter when it arrives.

Images:


















Many more:


http://imgur.com/a/n0IVjQ9


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

What dart frogs are you thinking about keeping? That will help us give you feedback to make it the best housing possible. 

Some advice from me, regardless of species of frog: 
Your substrate mix is going to retain a lot of water. Sphagnum moss and coco fibre retain a lot of moisture. I would recommend adding some other non-absorbing materials (such as peat moss and charcoal) to make it more closely resemble the classic ABG style substrate that is commonly used. I would also add more substrate depth , the plants will likely need more substrate, unless the pictures are misleading in how deep the substrate is. 

The crocodile fern is likely to outgrow your tank.

As for the tank construction: this tank is going to be hard to get a lot of ventilation throughout the tank because of its size/shape and because it's a top opening tank.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I won't give criticism of any sort. I'll just state facts, which shouldn't hurt a bit. 

Dart viv substrate is hard to get right without a good amount of experience working with other examples of it, in my experience. Too much and too large bits of sphagnum (as I see in the photo; spag needs to be finely milled) make a soupy mess over the course of time, and hold enough moisture to rot the other ingredients. Also, not using tree fern fiber or a synthetic functional replacement, and to a lesser extent charcoal, makes the substrate lack the necessary air pockets. 

Ventilation in a fish tank viv (especially one of those dimensions) is poor -- by design, as ventilating fish tanks tends to cause the water to fall out.  Drilling vent holes and covering with screen near the bottom -- for fresh air to be drawn in by the warm air exiting the screened portion of the top -- is the easiest and most effective fix, in my experience. I personally would drill about 6 sq inches of vent into the sides near the bottom, and have about 50 sq inches of vent in the top that can be partially covered as ambient conditions and viv needs dictate (these are just estimates based on a similar sized fish tank viv that I have). Other keepers do manage to ventilate such vivs with fans, though. There are many threads here detailing those fan projects that the search bar can help a person find.

The most relevant fact I can see is that the viv is roughly half the volume, and roughly half the footprint, of the minimum (not of the ideal, but of the minimum) that tends to be recommended here for "beginner" species of dart frogs. Note that shooting for more than 'minimum' is best in almost every part of almost every endeavor, as it helps ensure success.


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback!

What it sounds like is that this tank isn’t suitable size wise for a beginner frog like D. auratus, the substrate is incorrectly composed, and the ventilation situation is compromised.

I guess this is a good opportunity for me to purchase an 18*18*24 viv.

I still have a sizeable amount of the long fiber sphagnum left - would dicing it into smaller pieces help for the next tank substrate? I heard peat moss decomposes some what quick so it may not be suitable for a viv. substrate.

The substrate gets deeper towards the back. I left it pretty thin in front.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

sharambil said:


> I guess this is a good opportunity for me to purchase an 18*18*24 viv.


Yes.

After learning the hard way, I use only preprepared ABG, purchased from specialty dart frog supply vendors who know what they're doing (Josh's Frogs, NEHerp, Glass Box Tropicals, and similar distinctly dart frog focused businesses). There isn't any money to be saved mixing small quantities for oneself, and these mixes have been tested for many years by thousands of keepers. 

To answer the question directly: no, adding more spagnum to a mix that is already properly composed will only degrade the substrate's performance. Having some extra LFS around for other uses (rooting cuttings in a growout bin, mounting broms, making a cork mosaic background, filling cork tubes, shipping frogs, etc) is valuable, and it will keep basically forever.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Socratic Monologue said:


> After learning the hard way, I use only preprepared ABG, purchased from specialty dart frog supply vendors who know what they're doing


I dug into a 10 year old tank the other day and my store bought ABG mix still looks good. My home made ones have turned to slop in less time than that. 

Just use the proven stuff.


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

Wanted to post an update here.

I found an new Zilla 18*18*24 enclosure that has a built in plastic panel at the top to maintain humidity. However, the plastic does not cover the entire top of the enclosure, leaving about 2 inches of space on the top. On the front panel, there is what looks like a 1 inch opening underneath the doors, covered by a plastic grill.

I also went out and purchased a few plants that are in a small tub under an LED light. I wanted to try acclimating them to my misting style (and understand their needs) outside of the tank, and keeping an eye out for pests, before introducing them.

I got:

Philodendron micans
Small-leaved Maidenhair fern
Random fern
Alocasia amazonica
Begonia 'kit kat'
Something that resembles a tall growing Peperomia.

The vivarium that I am hoping to emulate is: 70x50x65cm Vivarium Build. @Tijl

I want to use the foam as the substrate layer, but also potentially as the background. I think epiphytes may have an easy time rooting into it. I am uncertain about using cork tiles from local hobby stores as they may have stain/glue or other frog/plant unsafe components.

I also love the planting/wood components. I want to have bromeliads towards the top casting some shade below, mosses/ferns growing out of the wood, a variety of vining species along the walls, and a few bunches of ferns peeping out between the leaf litter and pods.

I looked into Hygrolon, but it didn't seem cost effective for my needs.

If I want to plant these species, should I pot them with ABG mix? Or does orchid bark and gravel contain everything they would need to grow? Assuming the former would be the way to go.


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

So I began foaming the background as I was unable to find cork tile. I saw a design in another thread here that I liked. Felt like it gave a lot more definition and hiding spots for the frogs, so I tried to do something similar.

Next step is to use silicone around the edges where the Great Stuff touches the glass. Then I will use UGL Drylock and Quikrete color to paint the background. Maybe I’ll sprinkle in a little orchid bark or coconut coir.

24x18x18 Background


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

First coat of Drylok is on.


http://imgur.com/a/fnJLw7A


Where are your favorite shops to purchase bromeliads, moss, and abg mix? Will ferns and other rooting plants grow in a relatively inert substrate (thinking of going with river pebbles/orchid bark/a little coconut coir and sphagnum moss, topped off with leaf litter similar to in @Tijl’s build.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

sharambil said:


> First coat of Drylok is on.
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/fnJLw7A
> ...


I'm glad my build(s?) inspire you. I want you to know that the way I setup my substrate is probably what differs most from other builds. 
I personaly realy dislike abg, orchid bark, spaghmoss and especialy cococoir or peat as substrate for a number of reasons. The use of some of these potential substates can even become very problematic fast in a dart frog enclosure.. This might be something you are overlooking in your build?

Proper drainage and a substrate that will last forever without rotting is why I choose to use mostly pondfoam and gravel for my builds. 

Hope this gives you some more insight on how I approach my 'substrate scape'.


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

Tijl said:


> I'm glad my build(s?) inspire you. I want you to know that the way I setup my substrate is probably what differs most from other builds.
> I personaly realy dislike abg, orchid bark, spaghmoss and especialy cococoir or peat as substrate for a number of reasons. The use lf some of these potential substates can even become very problematic fast in a dart frog enclosure..
> That is why I choose for drainage all the way by using mostly pondfoam and gravel fornmy builds.
> 
> So they only thing that would resemble my build(s) is the top off with leaflitter? 😅


Hi @Tijl. I plan on using the filter foam as a drainage layer. I am wondering if simply smooth gravel is enough to sustain root plants like ferns? If it is, then I have no problem not using coconut coir or anything of that kind.

The plants I want to use in this vivarium are:
Peperomia 'Grey Luna'
Alcolasia sp.
Adiantum sp. (Small-leaf Maidenhair ferns)
Begonia 'Kit Kat'
Philodendron micans

Can these be kept without any soils?

That's what I don't understand.


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

sharambil said:


> Hi @Tijl. I plan on using the filter foam as a drainage layer. I am wondering if simply smooth gravel is enough to sustain root plants like ferns? If it is, then I have no problem not using coconut coir or anything of that kind.
> 
> The plants I want to use in this vivarium are:
> Peperomia 'Grey Luna'
> ...


The only reason I am considering adding these other components is because I am not sure if these plants can be sustained with just filter mat and rocks. Or will the breakdown of leaf litter be the nutrients source of their growth?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

sharambil said:


> The only reason I am considering adding these other components is because I am not sure if these plants can be sustained with just filter mat and rocks. Or will the breakdown of leaf litter be the driving force of their growth?


I get the question quite often if plants will thrive is the gravel setups. 
So I always say, look at the photo's again and ask yourself why are ask this question if you've already seen the result.. 😅

Nutriënts for the plants come from the 'bioactivity' in the enclosure.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I do want to empahsise that my builds are optimized for keeping poison frogs!

If I would have to build an enclosure optimized for plants, I would make other choises for substrate etc.. But it would simply never be suited for keeping frogs long term.


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

Tijl said:


> I do want to empahsise that my builds are optimized for keeping poison frogs!
> 
> If I would have to build an enclosure optimized for plants, I would make other choises for substrate etc.. But it would simply never be suited for keeping frogs long term.


I am hoping to optimize the vivarium for poison frogs as well. I am just taking into consideration what the plants will need to do well. I think I can manage to do both as their is considerable overlap between what the two may need.

After taking a look at your substrate composition and the tanks you've used this strategy in, you've achieved great results with epiphytes. Have you had any experience with substrate dominant plants like ferns in this substrate composition? How did those do for you?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

sharambil said:


> I am hoping to optimize the vivarium for poison frogs as well. I am just taking into consideration what the plants will need to do well. I think I can manage to do both as their is considerable overlap between what the two may need.
> 
> After taking a look at your substrate composition and the tanks you've used this strategy in, you've achieved great results with epiphytes. Have you had any experience with substrate dominant plants like ferns in this substrate composition? How did those do for you?


Ofc there is an overlap, but it's easy to lose track on what is potentialy harmfull for the frogs when focusing mostly on planting and not on creating the perfect frog environment. 

Many people starting out seem to always struggle on this topic.. substrate, humidity, ventilation, waterfeatures yes or no,.. that's just the basics of frog keeping.. Yet 90% of the time it's already done wrong and unfortunately it's the animals that pay the price for these mistakes..

My best advice to everyone is to build a tank with ONLY the frogs in mind so there won't be any mistakes made. 

Back on topic,

Planting is quite easy since almost everything will thrive in the conditions one will create for the frogs. 
Patience is the most important when it comes to having a green jungle in a glassbox.


I have different species of ferns growing in almost all my tanks. Ime the gravel works perfectly fine. All plants root quite easely.

But again, that's just my preference on how to setup an enclosure for FROGS. There are defenitly other ways of setting up a vivarium that work equaly or mayebe even better. I'm 100% convinced thise builds are also made with only 'what benefit the frogs' in mind.


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

Tijl said:


> Ofc there is an overlap, but it's easy to lose track on what is potentialy harmfull for the frogs when focusing mostly on planting and not on creating the perfect frog environment.
> 
> Many people starting out seem to always struggle on this topic.. substrate, humidity, ventilation, waterfeatures yes or no,.. that's just the basics of frog keeping.. Yet 90% of the time it's already done wrong and unfortunately it's the animals that pay the price for these mistakes..
> 
> My best advice to everyone is to build a tank with ONLY the frogs in mind so there won't be any mistakes made.


You could argue that the basics of frog keeping is also being able to provide them with live plants to coexist with right? That's why I'm trying to iron out the details of how to keep the plants alive (for the frogs) in the first steps.

It makes sense that people have trouble with substrate, humidity, etc. because there is a lot of conflicting information, and even when there are people who have success, they often don't provide enough information to help others replicate their success. I saw your thread and had some questions, that's why I'm asking. You've been very helpful so far. 

I am going to adapt some aspects of your build as I see fit... but it's mainly 'inspired', I don't plan on copying it detail for detail. I'll go with pea gravel and a little bit of bark as the top layer, and for drainage I may use the filter pad or even egg crate. I'm swapping things that I think won't change the end result significantly.

Again, thanks for your input, it's much appreciated.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

sharambil said:


> You could argue that the basics of frog keeping is also being able to provide them with live plants to coexist with right? That's why I'm trying to iron out the details of how to keep the plants alive (for the frogs) in the first steps.
> 
> I am going to adapt some aspects of your build as I see fit... but it's mainly 'inspired', I don't plan on copying it detail for detail.


No, there is a big difference between plant keeping an frog keeping. That's what I try to explain. The methods of keeping plants alive and healthy can be done in away that is very hazardous for the frogs. 
If you look at the first build you posted on this topic, that is a perfect example of that.

Ofc, I never wanted annyone to just copy my builds. I thought it was import for you to understand why I made certain decisions in that topic, so you could use that information in mind while making your own 'frog suited' vivarium.

No worries, I'm happy to help and so are many others on this board.


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

Things are starting to come together. I've got a good selection of plants to choose from for the planting. I've also got some bromeliads and christmas moss coming from Glass Box Tropicals, and a Philodendron verrucosum 'dwarf' variant coming from a local seller (In Search of Small Things). I've also got some oak leaf litter on the way.

Everything should be here by midway next week. I placed egg crate as the bottom most layer and added medium size pebbles over top. Excited to see things shape up.



http://imgur.com/a/uVe1Pyi


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

Planted the tank today. Decided to add a thin layer of ABG over top. Separated with screen mesh.



http://imgur.com/a/cP2ROnw


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## sharambil (Dec 28, 2020)

sharambil said:


> Planted the tank today. Decided to add a thin layer of ABG over top. Separated with screen mesh.
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/cP2ROnw


Anyone have tips on dialing in misting? Trying to find the balance between over watering and underwatering. I need to keep the mosses moist. I've been misting the bromeliads but allowing them some time to dry in between. Is there anything else that I may be missing?

Philodendron verrucosum 'dwarf' should be here in a few days, and will occupy the left column of the tank. Really excited about that plant.


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