# Treating WC frogs



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Approximately a week ago I received eight WC Leptopelis Uluguruensis which I have been trying to find for about two years-- and was told they have been in the US for a month. Was also told they had not been treated medically in any way. On the advice of others on this board, I waited for some fecal matter and collected it to take to the local vet which does treat amphibians...and aside from being charged $30 per fecal, they would not run the test until I actually brought the frog(S) in to be physically examined...at another $50 per frog. Evidently in Maryland, that is a state law...so now I am stuck with WC frogs which may/may not be healthy as I cannot afford THAT kind of vet bill which is more than the frogs! What options are there that are practical???


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

You could just send one or two fecals to Dr. Fry or I think Ivan in FL may offer this. I'd be more concerned about chytrid then fecals (I treat all amphibians). You could just shotgun treat them with panacur and flagyl.

Glad to see you got them! 

Also, if they look healthy, I wouldn't stress out too much. Some parasites are now being known to be beneficial to animals. It's a complicated and evolving science.



Judy S said:


> Approximately a week ago I received eight WC Leptopelis Uluguruensis which I have been trying to find for about two years-- and was told they have been in the US for a month. Was also told they had not been treated medically in any way. On the advice of others on this board, I waited for some fecal matter and collected it to take to the local vet which does treat amphibians...and aside from being charged $30 per fecal, they would not run the test until I actually brought the frog(S) in to be physically examined...at another $50 per frog. Evidently in Maryland, that is a state law...so now I am stuck with WC frogs which may/may not be healthy as I cannot afford THAT kind of vet bill which is more than the frogs! What options are there that are practical???


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Not trying to start anything, but these two statements seem to conflict with each other.

Can you tell us what you do to treat all amphibians?



Blue_Pumilio said:


> (I treat all amphibians). You could just shotgun treat them with panacur and flagyl.





Blue_Pumilio said:


> Also, if they look healthy, I wouldn't stress out too much. Some parasites are now being known to be beneficial to animals.


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I treat all amphibians for chytrid. I've used a few different drugs depending on what is available, but most have been successful. Lamasil works great, but has been difficult to find. Dosages for Lamasil are on the board.

I do not normally treat for parasites unless there is an issue or it is a problematic species. Normally I'll run fecal floats, smears, etc depending on the species. I'm lucky to have one of the best vets (certified by the ARAV) I've run across as my consulting vet. He works with me to figure out the absolute best methods of treatment on difficult species.




Reef_Haven said:


> Not trying to start anything, but these two statements seem to conflict with each other.
> 
> Can you tell us what you do to treat all amphibians?


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

One interesting paper in what is becoming a new area of study. 

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetc....1371/journal.pone.0020193&representation=PDF


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Thanks for the imput...but do you have to have weight on these frogs before treatment?? I would've been willing to take one frog figuring that there would be a possibility of at least one issue...but taking an already stressed frog to be handled was not a good idea to me. When I asked what the physical exam would consist of...was told they listen to heartbeat, look a the eyes and general condition...and then examine the intestines by holding a flashlight up to its belly. Nah...ain't gonna do it. These frogs are just too difficult to come by...As far as cytrid -- that is a concern, of course, but until these guys settle down don't want to do too much to them. They are seperated into groups of two or three...some are pretty small (unfortunately). Wonder how much of a problem there is in Tanzania where these frogs originate from...After the holiday season, will tackle this issue unless something looks like an imminent issue--thanks everybody...Oh BP--did you ever get that reading material together????


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Thanks for the imput...but do you have to have weight on these frogs before treatment??


Absolutely unless you want to risk killing the frogs via overdose. Targeting the dosage to specific individual weights is very important for proper parasite control/reduction. 




Judy S said:


> I would've been willing to take one frog figuring that there would be a possibility of at least one issue...but taking an already stressed frog to be handled was not a good idea to me.


People tend to heavily overestimate the impact of something like this on a frog.... If the frogs are kept in a dark container (say the inside of a opaque cooler), within the correct temperature range, then they can easily be checked, manipulated and dosed. While I worked at the zoo, we did some very invasive work on newly arrived animals including those that were heavily stressed with little or no losses.... 

Keep in mind, that if they are used to treating anurans, then they are going to be able to dose the frogs much more efficiently than someone who hasn't done it before (particularly if you are using a wormer like fenbendazole, which is most effective if tubed directly into the stomach of the frog (and frogs are extremely easy to tube if you have any experience) as opposed to attempting to reach appropriate theraputic levels via dusting.... 




Judy S said:


> As far as cytrid -- that is a concern, of course, but until these guys settle down don't want to do too much to them. They are seperated into groups of two or three...some are pretty small (unfortunately). Wonder how much of a problem there is in Tanzania where these frogs originate from...After the holiday season, will tackle this issue unless something looks like an imminent issue--thanks everybody...Oh BP--did you ever get that reading material together????


Chytrid is endemic in Tanzania so they could have contracted it before export or during holding in the exporters stateside (since many importers do not in any way practice suffiicent levels of biosecurity)... however chytrid can be prevented from killing the frogs as long as you don't let them get below 75 F.... I would be more concerned about the rest of your collection from exposure to ranaviruses since depending on the strain, it could kill anything from larval amphibians to reptiles.... 
Other significant concerns are going to be lungworms, coccidia (which panacure, and flagyl don't treat), flukes (some of which are also not affected by panacure)........ 

The vet having to see the animal is actually quite common and required in most states (often by thier malpractice insurer if not the law), and is actually considered a best practice. The current trend in herp vet medicine is unless it is one of the real concern groups (lungowrms, hookworms to name two) to not treat unless it is causing an issue with the frog at that time. The others need to be treated since they are directly infective to the frog and under captive conditions can readily build into what are called superinfections. Others should be treated/managed because they are a threat to the collection at large (chytrid, ranavirus, some coccidians)...... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

There has been recent reports of ranavirus killing off box turtles in some areas, but I haven't read the research yet. Another reason people should sterlize waste water from tanks! 

You can get swabs and send off for Ranavirus and Chytrid testing. VetDNA.com is a good company and cheapest. I would think one swab for each test would work. Take it and swab each animal with the same swab. Might as well test as a group for reduced cost and well, if one has it, they all do. You can't do anything about Rana except reduce exposure to other animals, but you can treat chytrid.

Ed is giving out good info above.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> There has been recent reports of ranavirus killing off box turtles in some areas, but I haven't read the research yet. Another reason people should sterlize waste water from tanks!
> .


Some of the latest 
RANAVIRUS INFECTION OF FREE-RANGING AND CAPTIVE BOX TURTLES AND TORTOISES IN THE UNITED STATES 

Insects | Free Full-Text | Reciprocal Trophic Interactions and Transmission of Blood Parasites between Mosquitoes and Frogs

PCR Prevalence of Ranavirus in Free-Ranging Eastern Box Turtles (Terrapene carolina carolina) at Rehabilitation Centers in Three Southeastern US States

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/34286/Allender_Matthew.pdf?sequence=1 

Ed


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed......as much as I truly appreciate the suggested reading...it is way over my head...wwww...aaaaa....yyyyy..over my head. But I do realize that there are a lot of people of DB who will, and can understand, your suggested links. As a greenhorn, can you make any observations on the presence of cytrid? Am going to do what Blue Pumilo wrote...and perhaps that should get wider publication as a thread to be a sticky in the health forum...a very practical solution. Thanks


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Ed......as much as I truly appreciate the suggested reading...it is way over my head...wwww...aaaaa....yyyyy..over my head. But I do realize that there are a lot of people of DB who will, and can understand, your suggested links. As a greenhorn, can you make any observations on the presence of cytrid? Am going to do what Blue Pumilo wrote...and perhaps that should get wider publication as a thread to be a sticky in the health forum...a very practical solution. Thanks


The papers were to indicate how ranavirus is being detected in other populations.. 

Test for ranavirus... Run several fecal floats. The best practice for the fecals is to get them read as quickly as possible from the time they come out of the frog. This allows for a better detection of protozoal infections and some of the other clues as to some infections (such as red blood cells). These signs often disappear if the fecal isn't read quickly. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

already downloaded the submission form for the DNA testing of both the Ranovirus and Cytrid--of just one sterile swab. Cost is $20 per test, so $40 both tests... That's a pretty doable cost and now have to find a vet to do fecals without it being $100....thanks again The lab I contacted is Vetdna.com


----------

