# Bean Beetles as the Staple Food



## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Can't seem to find the answer to this question anywhere.

I have found that bean beetles are enjoyed by all PDF's however. Be it thumbnails, pumilio, or the larger PDF's, they all seem to enjoy bean beetles.

I recently started culturing bean beetles and I have to say I really enjoy it in comparison to fruit flies.

Is there any reason why I shouldn't use them as my frogs staple food? I always try to give my frogs variety but that variety comes from me culturing flies then supplementing with various foods that I get from the many reptile conventions that are in my area. At least every 2 months.

Pondering switching it up by culturing bean beetles then supplementing with fruit flies that I purchase at conventions. Is there any reason why this would be less healthy for my frogs?

All info and opinions are welcome and appreciated.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Found this great thread about culturing bean beetles that really makes me want to try this:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/88858-continuous-bean-beetles.html


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Which of your pumilio/Ranitomeya are readily taking bean beetles? I would not consider them an appropriate food source for smaller PDFs. I would also not consider them a viable substitute for flies as a primary feeder item.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

KeroKero said:


> Size wise... they are like the roach nymphs... around the same LENGTH as hydei, but about twice the mass. This doesn't stop even picky tinc group frogs tho :shock: Even my truncatus eat them, and I've tested them on my friend's azureus (that was a shocker for me too, the frogs hunted those suckers down!), tincs, and auratus. Some of the frogs are a little weirded out after they nab them, but it hardly stops them from going after the next one after they get it down :roll: PDFs - Allobates, Phyllobates, Tinc group, eggfeeders (I haven't personally tried pumilio - but considering they eat termites...) Epis... honestly the only PDFs I'd say wouldn't go for them are thumbnails just because of size. Mantellas adore them, small/young treefrogs really dig them, what more can I say?





flyangler18 said:


> My imitators each stuffed a couple down not five minutes ago.....wouldn't have believed it until I saw it :shock:





Dancing frogs said:


> My source says that their pumilo even like them...I would have never guessed, as they look kinda big for such a small frog.





KeroKero said:


> The pumilio doesn't suprise me like the imis... I fed my pums termites and the bean beetles aren't that big ￼ Pums luuuuuuuuuuv termites...



I should have written that I’ve read some comments that lead me to believe that its at least worth a try. I was surprised by this information as well but I’ve def read enough comments to at least try feeding them my self.

Why do you think they are not a viable substitute for flies as a primary feeder item? You have to have a reason.





Dane said:


> Which of your pumilio/Ranitomeya are readily taking bean beetles? I would not consider them an appropriate food source for smaller PDFs. I would also not consider them a viable substitute for flies as a primary feeder item.


This comment made me think its possible. I realize he is not talking about dart frogs but would def like to know why I couldn’t try the same with darts. 



Ed said:


> I stopped rearing hydei and use bean beetles in thier place. As a food for hourglass treefrogs, I use it for about 90% plus of thier diet (shortly after metamorphosis to adult sized).
> 
> They are actually fairly predicatable as to when they boom and bust as they have a life span of ten to twelve days, that even only making three cultures a week, I tend to have multiple cultures producing every day.
> 
> ...


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I think the main reason BB aren't used as a staple is because of their life cycle. FF on the other hand - you make a culture and 2 weeks later you have flies. Schedule for FF is pretty easy to work with and predictable. BB are kinda weird...

I've been culturing and feeding a lot more bean beetles lately. My frogs seem to like them and I've noticed they're a bit plumper too. I haven't tried feeding BB to any of my thumbs but will have to give it a try.

If the continuous method works reliably I might try to reach a balance between the two. I had always reserved BB as a backup / occasional feeder but now that I'm using them regularly I have to admit they're a great feeder.

In this hobby changes are met with a lot of resistance. Fruit flies work well enough and most people just leave it at that. Which is fine, but it doesn't hurt to try new things if you plan it out. Just don't set yourself up for a feeder emergency  keep culturing FF at your normal rate for a couple months side by side with your BB and once you feel confident that you can reliably produce enough then consider making major changes.


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## rjs5134 (Feb 1, 2017)

You guys keep saying bean beetles... I assume you mean bean beetle larvae correct? You are not feeding the beetles to your PDF's right?

I started a BB culture a month ago and not much seems to be happening. Sometimes I see less beetles, sometimes more but I have not yet seen any larvae.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

rjs5134 said:


> You guys keep saying bean beetles... I assume you mean bean beetle larvae correct? You are not feeding the beetles to your PDF's right?
> 
> I started a BB culture a month ago and not much seems to be happening. Sometimes I see less beetles, sometimes more but I have not yet seen any larvae.


People use adult beetles for feeding frogs, not the larvae. My beetle cultures tend to act similarly to yours--not a ton of activity. A few occasions where I see more than there was before, but nothing I would call a "boom". Like Dane said though, even if they did produce well they look a bit large for smaller frogs.

I was initially concerned about all the chitin involved in a continuous beetle diet, but stumbled across these threads and am now significantly less worried about it. Thanks to Ed and company for the helpful information!

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/617849-post13.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...6-long-term-effects-feeding-bean-beatles.html


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Now that I'm home from work, and my verbiage isn't limited by what my phone can accomplish in two minutes...
My OPINION regarding the subject is that:
_Callosobruchus_ are, as mentioned, are much higher in chitin content than other common PDF feeders (springs, isos, flies, aphids, crix, firebrats), and as such, they would take longer to digest, but in the process, they take up more space in the stomach/GI tract. I don't know the actual nutritional content of the beetles themselves, but given the potential for a slower metabolization, feeding them as a primary may result in a lower return to the frog for the effort. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the stomach contents of a wild pumilio (i.e.) to compare the volume of each type of bug it regularly consumes. I would guess that the bulk of their diet consists of mites and topsoil arthropods, but that is just a guess.
Also, your original post stated that;


> I have found that bean beetles are enjoyed by all PDF's however. Be it thumbnails, pumilio, or the larger PDF's, they all seem to enjoy bean beetles.


Given this statement, I was interested to know which of YOUR frogs of the types I mentioned were taking them readily. You also posted a quote from Corey (KeroKero) regarding other similarly sized insects that said frogs would take, but the composition of BBs is VERY different from roaches or other soft-bodied insects.
I can say with good certainty that R. reticulata, or smaller members of the amazonica clade, will NOT benefit from consistent BB feedings. Quite the opposite, since the beetles are likely to stress frogs that can't consume them.
I would also suspect that in smaller frogs, regular ingestion of something so tough would increase the likelihood of impaction and other digestive/excretory issues.

Maybe Ed will partake in this discussion and put you, or I, or BOTH of us in our place...


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## toostrange (Sep 19, 2013)

I have been under the impression that to many bean beetles can cause impaction and possible prolapse due to them not being fully digested.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Pretty much agree with ALL of this and these discussions always put a smile on my face... 

And yes I got the idea from the thread I referenced. If I can reliably mimic her results then I will definitely give it a try.



port_plz said:


> I think the main reason BB aren't used as a staple is because of their life cycle. FF on the other hand - you make a culture and 2 weeks later you have flies. Schedule for FF is pretty easy to work with and predictable. BB are kinda weird...
> 
> I've been culturing and feeding a lot more bean beetles lately. My frogs seem to like them and I've noticed they're a bit plumper too. I haven't tried feeding BB to any of my thumbs but will have to give it a try.
> 
> ...


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I meant to write this in my response to port_plz… The problem I’ve been having with FF’s is that I get these crazy booms where I have more flies then I need and my frogs were getting fat. Anyways, my point is that a slower yet steady producing feeder would work better for me as I don’t have many frogs and I plan on keeping it that way. 

I’ve got my system down pretty well now but I’m just wasting so many flies. Which brings me to my response to you Dane. I personally wouldn’t be bothered by the frog getting less calories for more work. From everything I’ve been reading I think that obesity is a big problem for captive frogs and my experiences in keeping frogs has lead me to understand why. 

If I can feed my frogs something that they will readily accept that I can feed on a consistent basis to provide them with not only the nutrition that they need but also the enrichment of the hunt but makes them work for their calories and keeps them from getting fat then that would be much better IMO.

Kind of like with celery. It is said that it takes more calories to digest celery then you get from eating it so its a good food to eat if you want to lose weight.

Whatever comes of this discussion I’m definitely going to try to culture more beetles in the manner that is described in the thread I posted. I am also going to try feeding my pum’s and imi’s the beetles and see if I have similar results as some of the comments that I posted. If all of MY frogs don’t take the beetles then this is all a mute point.

No one needs to be “put in their place” as this is just a discussion and not that serious. All of the info I have found thus far tells me that this could work for me or is at least worth a try. This does not have to be something that everyone needs to do. I honestly was just looking for an answer to that question as a few people who sell them online say that they are not to be used as a staple but did not give a reason. 

I’ve read the same for things like termites and the reason is always that they are too rich in fat. This makes perfect sense and is a great reason why I would never feed my frogs termites as a staple. I would like the real reason BB’s are not to be used as a staple feeder so I can make a similarly informed decision. But I have to say I haven’t heard a good reason not to thus far.





Dane said:


> Now that I'm home from work, and my verbiage isn't limited by what my phone can accomplish in two minutes...
> My OPINION regarding the subject is that:
> _Callosobruchus_ are, as mentioned, are much higher in chitin content than other common PDF feeders (springs, isos, flies, aphids, crix, firebrats), and as such, they would take longer to digest, but in the process, they take up more space in the stomach/GI tract. I don't know the actual nutritional content of the beetles themselves, but given the potential for a slower metabolization, feeding them as a primary may result in a lower return to the frog for the effort. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the stomach contents of a wild pumilio (i.e.) to compare the volume of each type of bug it regularly consumes. I would guess that the bulk of their diet consists of mites and topsoil arthropods, but that is just a guess.
> Also, your original post stated that;
> ...


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I'd really like to know if this is true. This would be a good reason not too but then the question becomes. How much is too much?



toostrange said:


> I have been under the impression that to many bean beetles can cause impaction and possible prolapse due to them not being fully digested.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I've been having similar results so far but I haven't started the continuous method yet. Hoping it will work better LoL




rjs5134 said:


> I started a BB culture a month ago and not much seems to be happening. Sometimes I see less beetles, sometimes more but I have not yet seen any larvae.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> _Callosobruchus/i] are, as mentioned, are much higher in chitin content than other common PDF feeders (springs, isos, flies, aphids, crix, firebrats), and as such, they would take longer to digest, but in the process, they take up more space in the stomach/GI tract. _


_ 

Keep in mind that the frogs normally include a lot of high chitin foods (ants) in their diet in the wild so they are adapted to handle it. The problem we are having with this discussion is there is a assumption being made that because the beetle is "harder" than other feeder insects it has to be higher in chitin. This in fact may not be true as it depends on the amount of protein used to hold the chitin molecules together. As a result the beetles may be more digestible than we think they are ... As an analogy we can consider the conventional attributes of mealworms vs crickets. Its generally considered that mealworms are an inferior food item than crickets (or roaches) but at least one study (Rich, C. Nelson, and Larry G. Talent. "The effects of prey species on food conversion efficiency and growth of an insectivorous lizard." Zoo biology 27.3 (2008): 181-187.) has demonstrated that mealworms are in fact a better food choice (for at least that species but given that these traits are often conserved I would expect it to widely cross taxa).

Whether or not they take up more space is arguable as technically they are larger and more spherical so they actually could contain a greater quantity of nutrients (but I'm speculating here) in short a greater nutritional density/gram of insect. 



Dane said:



I don't know the actual nutritional content of the beetles themselves, but given the potential for a slower metabolization, feeding them as a primary may result in a lower return to the frog for the effort.

Click to expand...

I have not seen any direct analysis of bean beetles but there are at least 4-5 papers where they analyze the change in nutritional quality of cowpeas (protein content, lipid, moisture) so if someone wanted to do a meta-analysis of those papers, they could derive approximations that would be sufficient for the hobbyist. As for slower metabolism, digestive efficiency is much more heavily predicated on temperature than it is on prey composition. If this is a concern bump the temperatures 1-3 degrees F to proactively compensate. 



Dane said:



It would be interesting to see an analysis of the stomach contents of a wild pumilio (i.e.) to compare the volume of each type of bug it regularly consumes. I would guess that the bulk of their diet consists of mites and topsoil arthropods, but that is just a guess.

Click to expand...

I couldn't find a free access version of this paper 
Donnelly, Maureen A. "Feeding patterns of the strawberry poison frog, Dendrobates pumilio (Anura: Dendrobatidae)." Copeia (1991): 723-730.

Of which, ants, beetles and millipedes would be considered high in chitin. I was going to try and dig up chitin estimates of mites but there were just too many papers on allergic response and chitinases to make it feasible in the time I have available. 



Dane said:



but the composition of BBs is VERY different from roaches or other soft-bodied insects.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily ... if you look into the literature this can vary widely and there is a little more to consider in this range for example several of the common species of feeder roaches store excess protein in the form of uric acid in the body cavity which then throws off protein analysis (causing it to read high) but this also needs to be compared on a more nutritional basis. On a generic level, Dipterans tend to be deficient in cysteine and leucine while beetles tend to be a more complete food source (and see my comments above on mealworms). 



Dane said:



I would also suspect that in smaller frogs, regular ingestion of something so tough would increase the likelihood of impaction and other digestive/excretory issues.

Click to expand...

If they are phased in as a food source then I wouldn't think this would be that big of a concern. You can impact (gastric overload) on soft bodied insects just as readily (I know this isn't the type you were considering but it deserves mentioning) 


some comments 

Ed_


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Now that is precisely what I was looking for 

Thanks everyone for your responses... All that's left to do is make sure that my pum's and imi's will in fact accept the bean beetles as others have reported and I'll be all set.

EDIT:

I also found this older thread with basically the same confirmation that this shouldn't be a problem... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...6-long-term-effects-feeding-bean-beatles.html





Ed said:


> Keep in mind that the frogs normally include a lot of high chitin foods (ants) in their diet in the wild so they are adapted to handle it. The problem we are having with this discussion is there is a assumption being made that because the beetle is "harder" than other feeder insects it has to be higher in chitin. This in fact may not be true as it depends on the amount of protein used to hold the chitin molecules together. As a result the beetles may be more digestible than we think they are ... As an analogy we can consider the conventional attributes of mealworms vs crickets. Its generally considered that mealworms are an inferior food item than crickets (or roaches) but at least one study (Rich, C. Nelson, and Larry G. Talent. "The effects of prey species on food conversion efficiency and growth of an insectivorous lizard." Zoo biology 27.3 (2008): 181-187.) has demonstrated that mealworms are in fact a better food choice (for at least that species but given that these traits are often conserved I would expect it to widely cross taxa).
> 
> Whether or not they take up more space is arguable as technically they are larger and more spherical so they actually could contain a greater quantity of nutrients (but I'm speculating here) in short a greater nutritional density/gram of insect.
> 
> ...


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

cam1941 said:


> I meant to write this in my response to port_plz… The problem I’ve been having with FF’s is that I get these crazy booms where I have more flies then I need and my frogs were getting fat. Anyways, my point is that a slower yet steady producing feeder would work better for me as I don’t have many frogs and I plan on keeping it that way.
> 
> I’ve got my system down pretty well now but I’m just wasting so many flies.


I have similar problems and it's very wasteful. I suppose if I put more effort into optimizing my fruit fly production I could eliminate most of the waste but to be honest I'm kinda lazy when it comes to fruit flies and I have to make them as fast as possible before my wife starts complaining about the bugs in the kitchen 

I'm probably going to ramp up hydei production too. I usually just make one a month but I think adding more hydei to the mix might help balance things out.

Also if you're interested I started culturing rice beetles using this method. It's a little bit more involved than the set it and forget it method but results in almost zero adult beetles when it's time to harvest larvae. You can also harvest earlier for smaller frogs. It's pretty awesome to sift out a stainer of only larvae!



Ed said:


> The problem we are having with this discussion is there is a assumption being made that because the beetle is "harder" than other feeder insects it has to be higher in chitin.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I've smooshed quite a few of them accidentally. They're definitely not as tough as I assumed. I was actually kind of surprised at how delicate they are. Not that this means anything  just made me a little less worried.

Thanks for the info Ed. I'm just going to start including your name as a keyword in my searches.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Thanks for contributing Ed. I'm not likely going to be the one to compare the data, but it would indeed be a surprise to me to learn that one bug, raised on a single type of legume, could be more nutritious than another that was raised on a specially formulated, vitamin enriched media (say, Superfly), but I guess it all depends on how the insect type assimilates its food.
The reason I suggested that BBs take up more space in the gut, and digest slower is that, in several dart species of mine, after a feeding of beetles, the belly remains distended for some 24-48 hours longer than a comparable ingestion of flies/isos/etc. Also there seems to be a longer period between consumption and defecation after feeding heavily on the beetles. Just a personal observation, and I'm a little too lazy to try to up my frogroom temp by a few degrees every time I feed a particular item.
Additionally, even in larger frogs (auratus, tinctorius, and similar), swallowing BBs can sometimes be a bit difficult for the frog, as evidenced by several cycles of eye retraction to down a single beetle in some instances. To me, this might indicate that it could pose even greater difficulty to a frog with a smaller esophagus. Again, my previous post was personal opinion, and that hasn't necessarily changed.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Yeah it sucks and on top of all that they get everywhere when I over feed because of the very common ridiculous booms I have. I use turkish gliders which produce like crazy. I may also consider switching to melanogasters to slow down production in the mean time. 

If I find that all my frogs have no problem eating BB's then I think the slower steadier production style of BB's will work better for me and my frogs as they will be less likely to be over fed. I'm also going to look into trying a mix of different beans that may be higher in nutritional value. Haven't seen anything on that.

I think with all that in mind and the fact that I'll be getting flies and other feeders pretty regularly from local expos my frogs will be all set.



port_plz said:


> I have similar problems and it's very wasteful. I suppose if I put more effort into optimizing my fruit fly production I could eliminate most of the waste but to be honest I'm kinda lazy when it comes to fruit flies and I have to make them as fast as possible before my wife starts complaining about the bugs in the kitchen
> 
> I'm probably going to ramp up hydei production too. I usually just make one a month but I think adding more hydei to the mix might help balance things out.
> 
> Also if you're interested I started culturing rice beetles using this method. It's a little bit more involved than the set it and forget it method but results in almost zero adult beetles when it's time to harvest larvae. You can also harvest earlier for smaller frogs. It's pretty awesome to sift out a stainer of only larvae!


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## rjs5134 (Feb 1, 2017)

I hope I'm not steering this off course...

1st, I was mistaken previously, I have Rice Flour Beetles, not Bean Beetles. Guess I had 1 too many or was ready for bed when I jumped into the discussion.

2nd, I have melo's and hydei's going right now. The melo's are a little unpredictable for me. My 1st culture from Josh's produced well for 2 months, the 2nd barely produced at all. The cultures I've made myself varied as well. The hydei's take longer to produce but when they "pop", holy crap do I have flies. 

My galacs and leucs like the Hydei but the flies are VERY fast and climb to the top quickly and often stay there for days. The more hesitant frogs don't get many hydei's because they are either eaten or on the underside of the top glass before the frogs come out. The melos move more slowly and are gobbled up before they get far. I would like to find a fly the size of the hydei that moved like the melos.

Not sure if bean beetles are in my future or not.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

rjs5134 said:


> My galacs and leucs like the Hydei but the flies are VERY fast and climb to the top quickly and often stay there for days. The more hesitant frogs don't get many hydei's because they are either eaten or on the underside of the top glass before the frogs come out. The melos move more slowly and are gobbled up before they get far. I would like to find a fly the size of the hydei that moved like the melos.
> 
> Not sure if bean beetles are in my future or not.


You could try chilling your hydei in the fridge before feeding, and this would slow their movement a bit when they are first fed. You could also position a small saucer or yogurt cup lid with a slice of banana, or a dollop of fly media on top to keep the flies more centrally located for the convenience of the frogs.


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## rjs5134 (Feb 1, 2017)

Fridge idea is very interesting. I am gonna try that tonight for sure. I have a film canister lid with banana in the viv but they climb right to the top immediately.

Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> Thanks for contributing Ed. I'm not likely going to be the one to compare the data, but it would indeed be a surprise to me to learn that one bug, raised on a single type of legume, could be more nutritious than another that was raised on a specially formulated, vitamin enriched media (say, Superfly), but I guess it all depends on how the insect type assimilates its food.


It is a little more complicated than how the feeder assimilates the diet, the reason that Dipterans (as a broad generalization) may not be as good as beetles (again broad generalization) is that they have different metabolic needs for the two amino acids. They simple use less cysteine in their tissues and if an organism is fed primarily flies and cannot make sufficient cysteine to meet its needs then it will starve. This cannot be made up via diet of the fly as there isn't any way to store amino acids in excess of what is needed (in fact most animals convert them to a carbohydrate and either use them as fuel or further convert them to fat and store it). So regardless of the diet fed the flies they are going to be deficient in cysteine, which is also why it is included in many of the dusting supplements as it alleviates the shortcoming of the flies. (and as I noted I'm not doing the analysis either as its more than I want to take on right now). 



Dane said:


> The reason I suggested that BBs take up more space in the gut, and digest slower is that, in several dart species of mine, after a feeding of beetles, the belly remains distended for some 24-48 hours longer than a comparable ingestion of flies/isos/etc. Also there seems to be a longer period between consumption and defecation after feeding heavily on the beetles. Just a personal observation, and I'm a little too lazy to try to up my frogroom temp by a few degrees every time I feed a particular item.


Its all good (although I could offer some speculative reasons that apply in other taxa). 



Dane said:


> Additionally, even in larger frogs (auratus, tinctorius, and similar), swallowing BBs can sometimes be a bit difficult for the frog, as evidenced by several cycles of eye retraction to down a single beetle in some instances. To me, this might indicate that it could pose even greater difficulty to a frog with a smaller esophagus. Again, my previous post was personal opinion, and that hasn't necessarily changed.


This isn't unusual if there is manipulation of the feeder for swallowing.. which is to be expected if offered a larger food item so reading it as a problem is tricky. 

some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

These points are particularly interesting. I had no idea that FF’s (Dipterans) are deficient in certain amino acids. 

Also, really interesting concept that an animal can starve even though its being fed regularly. 

Thanks again for posting.




Ed said:


> On a generic level, Dipterans tend to be deficient in cysteine and leucine while beetles tend to be a more complete food source (and see my comments above on mealworms).





Ed said:


> It is a little more complicated than how the feeder assimilates the diet, the reason that Dipterans (as a broad generalization) may not be as good as beetles (again broad generalization) is that they have different metabolic needs for the two amino acids. They simple use less cysteine in their tissues and if an organism is fed primarily flies and cannot make sufficient cysteine to meet its needs then it will starve. This cannot be made up via diet of the fly as there isn't any way to store amino acids in excess of what is needed (in fact most animals convert them to a carbohydrate and either use them as fuel or further convert them to fat and store it). So regardless of the diet fed the flies they are going to be deficient in cysteine, which is also why it is included in many of the dusting supplements as it alleviates the shortcoming of the flies. (and as I noted I'm not doing the analysis either as its more than I want to take on right now).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cam1941 said:


> These points are particularly interesting. I had no idea that FF’s (Dipterans) are deficient in certain amino acids.


You can't say this in that context and be accurate. In the example I gave, Dipterans (as a broad generalization) compared to to beetles (again as a broad generalization) have less cysteine (this does not automatically mean that they are deficient as a food source). They could have more cysteine compared to a different organism (but I'd have to look up the data to give a specific example). As cysteine is a semi-essential amino acid, this means that for animals with a large need for cysteine (say they can't make as much as another animal), the flies are less optimal than the beetles (broad generalizations) and could contribute to a deficiency unless it is addressed in the dusting supplement. Basically this is why amino acids are present in many of the dusting supplements as a kind of shot gun approach as small excesses of amino acids aren't a problem for the animal as I noted above what is done with surplus amino acids (provided there is so much that it can affect kidney function but that requires a lot of it)). 




cam1941 said:


> Also, really interesting concept that an animal can starve even though its being fed regularly.


You can starve to death if you eliminate the majority of fat from your diet, its called protein starvation. 

Cats are a classic example of this, they require taurine in their diet as they cannot manufacture it. Typically they would get it from the prey species they consume (or meat/fish) and it isn't available through plant based foods. So if you want to feed your cat a completely plant based diet you have to provide taurine for the cat or it will effectively starve to death. 

some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks for clarifying. I meant to address the fact that you wrote "as a broad generalization" but it got too complicated to write... Makes more sense now though. 

It would be great if someone did an analysis of all these feeders. Repashy, are you listening 



Ed said:


> You can't say this in that context and be accurate. In the example I gave, Dipterans (as a broad generalization) compared to to beetles (again as a broad generalization) have less cysteine (this does not automatically mean that they are deficient as a food source). They could have more cysteine compared to a different organism (but I'd have to look up the data to give a specific example). As cysteine is a semi-essential amino acid, this means that for animals with a large need for cysteine (say they can't make as much as another animal), the flies are less optimal than the beetles (broad generalizations) and could contribute to a deficiency unless it is addressed in the dusting supplement. Basically this is why amino acids are present in many of the dusting supplements as a kind of shot gun approach as small excesses of amino acids aren't a problem for the animal as I noted above what is done with surplus amino acids (provided there is so much that it can affect kidney function but that requires a lot of it)).


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I started the continuous bean beetle method when I saw this thread. I've only completed secondary seeding and those cultures have just exploded! I've never had so many bean beetles.

So it appears that the continuous method works. 

I'm kind of afraid to push it any further lol what the hack am I going to do with all these beetles?  Definitely worth it and it only takes a couple minutes to seed the cultures every week. I'll just have to remember to add this step to my weekly culturing chores.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Same, my cultures started exploding 2 days ago lol Definitely works well...

Have you witnessed any or your imitators or pumilio eating them?

My varadero and black jeans have been hiding lately so I have not been able to confirm those reports yet.

Edit: What method do you use to collect them? 

I started with the piece of eggcrate on top then shake off, now I'm trying straining which has def produced more number and less waste but I'm look for a really efficient way to do this. 





port_plz said:


> I started the continuous bean beetle method when I saw this thread. I've only completed secondary seeding and those cultures have just exploded! I've never had so many bean beetles.
> 
> So it appears that the continuous method works.
> 
> I'm kind of afraid to push it any further lol what the hack am I going to do with all these beetles?  Definitely worth it and it only takes a couple minutes to seed the cultures every week. I'll just have to remember to add this step to my weekly culturing chores.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I have not seen any thumbnails eat them yet but all my bigger frogs scarf them down.

This is going to be hard to explain... I keep toilet paper rolls in each culture. They seem to be able to hold onto them better than the deli cup.

1) Have a feeder cup nearby with some fresh supplement in it. I use 16oz deli cups

2) Tap the culture until the beetles on the sides / top fall down. Not too hard or you'll knock the BB off the TP roll too

3) Before they can recover quickly remove the lid and pull out the TP roll and put it in the feeder cup and quickly replace the culture lid.

4) Tap, knock the TP roll until all the BB fall off and swirl them around in the dust so they can't climb out

5) Knock the BB in the culture to the bottom again, remove the lid and put the TP roll back and replace the lid. 

If you don't get enough on the first try the TP roll will be covered again in no time so you can just do it again.

It might be helpful to do the transfer over a shoebox tub or kitchen sink until you get the process down. It's actually easier than transferring FF IMO


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks for that, and yeah that's basically what I do with the piece of egg carton and I do use the shoe box because I def don't have my system down yet.

Also, I like how you mention how you always replace the lid and I know why LoL Who knew that the bastards flew so well! No one mentions that in all the reading I've done on them so far LoL 



port_plz said:


> I have not seen any thumbnails eat them yet but all my bigger frogs scarf them down.
> 
> This is going to be hard to explain... I keep toilet paper rolls in each culture. They seem to be able to hold onto them better than the deli cup.
> 
> ...


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Trust me, try a TP roll it works so much better than egg carton.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Will do... Sounds promising.

I was thinking about doing a giant culture in one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Lees-Aquariu...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01BXW0N5U

Just have to make the top escape proof. Still deciding if I want to bother.




port_plz said:


> Trust me, try a TP roll it works so much better than egg carton.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

That's a pretty neat idea. Now I want to mod some deli cups with removable tubes


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Cool, let us know how it works. 

I have some extra test tubes from ant keeping... Maybe I'll give it a try with those first.

Also, guess I'll give the critter keeper a try when I have some time.



port_plz said:


> That's a pretty neat idea. Now I want to mod some deli cups with removable tubes


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Check out this thread from a few years ago... I can literally pull virtually all of the beetles from a culture using this method. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/60638-bean-beetle-collection.html#post526406

some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I noticed something interesting that may help with feeding bean beetles to different sized frogs.

The bean beetles that I have came from cultures I purchased that were comprised of cow peas.

I then used the continuous bean beetle method to seed cultures that I made using black eyed peas. When then finally boomed I noticed something interesting.

The bean beetles that came from the cow peas are significantly smaller then the beetles I produced with black eyed peas.

Smaller beans equals smaller beetles? I don't know, maybe there is another reason but I do know that the beetles produced using these two different types of beans are definitely different in terms of overall size.

Keep in mind that bean beetles already have a gradient in terms of size no matter what type of bean you use.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The beans aren't equal in nutritional value for the beetles so there is the probable reason for the size difference. If you want to read more on their culture see http://www.beanbeetles.org/handbook/handbook.pdf

some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Thank you for clearing that up, I knew there had to be some reason for it. I think I'm going to use half and half cultures so I have a wider variety of different sized beetles. 

Also, thanks for that document. I need to read the whole thing but I believe you posted that before somewhere else because I def read a small portion of it before. 

I had bought a bunch of black beans and made and seeded like 4 cultures worth (I had read somewhere that black beans were the most nutritious type of bean) So I figured this would be a good idea  

Cut to about a week later when I found that old post of yours and that document and learned that black beans are toxic to bean beetles LoL


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