# Intermedius breeding behavior (moved from Beg. Disc.)



## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

(No takers in Beginning Discussion so thought I'd try here...)

Thought I'd title this thread with a phrase that I couldn't find using the search function... 

I have 3 intermedius, about 6 to 7 months old, that I've raised since July. Two have been calling for close to 2 months, now, and the third has never called. The two males sometimes call back and forth, take turns jumping on top of each other, etc., but both are otherwise plump and acting normally (neither cowed into submission). 

The other elicits a very different response from the two known males. They like to sit in close proximity to "her," and occasionally seem to try to get "her" to follow them, though nothing has come of it so far. "She" seems slightly interested. One of the males and the non-calling frog usually share the same film cannister at night. 

I'm hoping a successful intermedius breeder will post his/her frogs' courtship behavior. Also, any opinions on egg-laying sites, etc., would be appreciated. I have found some threads on this--basically I gather that different frogs prefer different areas but many lay on the glass tank walls? 
To be safe, I have several film cannisters in the viv, at various heights and angles. 

Question--will eggs on the tank side be immediately recognizable? My frogs track a lot of moss fragments, etc., on the glass... plus there are lots of water droplets usually.

Or just point me to any good threads on these matters. Thanks! 

--Diane


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

They are a bit young to expect them to settle smoothly into breeding. I take a "let nature take its course" approach. I have a 2.1.0 group that breeds every 2 weeks or so. They lay in film containers on the glass - and then move the tads (if I leave eggs in) to a brom. I imagine others may choose lay sites based on variables.

The eggs should be noticeable - but they know where they are. The egg mass is not large. If you have hidden eggs hatch - you may see the male sporting a tad on his back.









Keep misting and feeding and try not to redecorate the viv too much while they mature and settle in to a breeding routine.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thank you. What a great picture!

Do you mean cannisters suction-cupped to the glass? Do yours have a favorite orientation (upright, horizontal, etc.) for the cannisters? Near the top or bottom of viv? (My viv is a vertical ten, well-planted.)

--Diane


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

My intermedius first laid in a "clear" film canister suction cupped in a nearly vertical position on the glass, with water filled 3/4 full. Since then, every clutch has been laid in a dark film canister suction cupped at an almost horizontal angle with just a little water in the bottom (highest film canister in the tank).

The male will call his heart out from just above the film canister, may even go to a position near the female, and the female will follow him into the film canister. When courting and the female is laying, the male will sometimes change the sound of the call. 

Males tend to move in a more jerky fashion, while females tend to move more smoothly. Give them time; 6-7 months is young. Oh, if you have tincs that have laid, be forewarned: imitator eggs are white, even when fertile.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

My Intermedius film containers have suction cups and are attached to the vertical glass at about half-height. Oddly, they have proven to exclusively prefer on side of the viv over the other. Film containers are tilted slightly up that they may retain a bit of water (not much). I use (white) inserts in my film containers.

Hope this helps.

Alan


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, would have responded sooner but must have spent hours today watching the frogs! The 2 males were calling, chasing, and wrestling for hours. Frequently they would skirmish in a tall leaf till both fell overboard, falling at least 70% of the height of the viv, only to jump up and start all over again. Fascinating little guys.

Homer, thank you very much for the details. I have seen one of my males calling from the top of a cannister off & on...the "female" does sometimes follow him but then doesn't seem to know just what to do...Should I assume you keep yours in pairs? Thanks for the egg color tip. Between my son & I we have had pdf's for at least 2 yrs now (leucs, Bastimentos pumilio, & my intermedius) but till now they've all been males. Last frogs I raised from eggs were native wood frogs.  

Alan, can you elaborate on the cannister inserts or point me to a thread where it's already been covered? I once saw Rich Frye cut his cannisters open to get at the contents, but film cannisters aren't so easy to come by these days. (Yeah, I know you can buy them--but that sure seems crazy after all the ones I've tossed over the years.)

Also, do you remember the approximate age of your frogs when they began laying? And I would be grateful for any elaboration on the mechanics of the trio. Does one male dominate or do they both seem to mate? 

Thanks again.

--Diane


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Hey Diane, sounds like they are doing their thing, just not quite ready to know how yet . A film canister insert is made by cutting a film canister in half, then putting the half into a full canister. It makes egg collection very simple. If you need to find film canisters, go to any place that develops film and ask them if you they have any that they can spare, lol, they always give me canisters. Or you can buy them with suction cups already attached through Quality Captives they have a link on the link page here, and they are fairly inexpensive. 

I don't keep intermedius, but I do have fantasticus, very similar. Mine are now about 8-10 months old and have just recently started breeding for me. what I have noticed is that it just depends on the individual frogs when they will become ready to reproduce. Just be ready for them once they are breeding . The breeding behavior is definitely there though, congrats. 

take care,

ed parker


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Usually in a trio there is a dominate male which is usually the breeder. The other will tend not to call and generally won't breed with the female. If you remove the dominant male, the other male will usually start calling and have his way with the lady


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

c'est ma said:


> Alan, can you elaborate on the cannister inserts or point me to a thread where it's already been covered? I once saw Rich Frye cut his cannisters open to get at the contents, but film cannisters aren't so easy to come by these days. (Yeah, I know you can buy them--but that sure seems crazy after all the ones I've tossed over the years.)
> 
> Also, do you remember the approximate age of your frogs when they began laying? And I would be grateful for any elaboration on the mechanics of the trio. Does one male dominate or do they both seem to mate?


Take a (I prefer white) film container and cut it in half lengthwise - end to end. IME you'll need to trim some of the remaining close end off to get it to slide into the outer film container. Then just slide it in and suction-cup the outer film container to the glass. When you find eggs - just pull out the insert (if you are pulling eggs) and slide in another insert. The white insert goes to wherever you are incubating eggs.

I do not pull all of my eggs. I know which eggs will do best in the viv and which are better pulled.

I think my group bred around 13 months of age or so. I have not tried to determine which of the males is the most prolific.

Hope this helps.

Alan


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Ed,

Very happy to hear you confirm the breeding behavior! I will work on my patience--just wanted to be sure I had things set up ok. As to "being ready" when they do start (speaking confidently here), that will be my next set of questions, I'm sure. I'm kinda surprised there aren't more stickies here on general husbandry but can see that each keeper finds slightly different methods that work for him/her. I've also found instructions at vendor websites...

One recent post on another thumbnail said it was typical for them to lay for 6-7mos before good eggs were produced. Was that your experience? (Talk about K-adapted!) 

Corey, your info was just what I had expected to occur based on most of my biological experience. I guess it is taking my males some time to sort it out--wonder if female choice plays a part? If I'm not mistaken, Alan isn't the only one successfully keeping intermedius in 2.1 groups; I'm thinking they can all stay together unless I notice that one of them is reacting poorly health- or behavior-wise to the competition. Now, however, it seems that whenever one of the males has successfully lured the "female," the other male butts in...Feisty little guys, so fascinating!

Thanks,

Diane


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Diane,

I have heard as well that it takes time for some frogs to produce good eggs. THat is another thing that is TOTALLY individual frog specific. There isn't a set way for that in any species. My vents took a few clutches to deliver me some good eggs, and even now that they have been breeding for a month or two I still am getting bad clutches occasionally. It may be diet dependant. As it is with my fantasticus and pumilio though, so far every single egg I have found has been fertile. It just depends on how the males manage to learn how to fertilize, or if the females can actually produce healthy eggs, or a combination. Intermedius I know are very similar to fantasticus, so I am sure you will get small eggloads, but they will focus more time into making sure they are healthy eggs. Take care, good luck with them 

ed parker


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

c'est ma said:


> Homer, thank you very much for the details. I have seen one of my males calling from the top of a cannister off & on...the "female" does sometimes follow him but then doesn't seem to know just what to do...Should I assume you keep yours in pairs?


I do simply have a pair in a 10 gallon vertical. I would like to try the film canister insert strategy, but my pair lays only in one film canister . . . over and over and over again. Some are laid in the bottom in the pool of water. Some are laid upside down in the film canister so that the tads will drop into the water when they hatch.

After having a run of 2 clutches (1-2 eggs each) that molded over, I decided to let the eggs hatch where they were laid. Since that time, the pair laid 3 clutches in the same film canister (5 eggs total). The first egg apparently just hatched, as I saw the male transporting a tad last night.

BTW, you may not always see the female during the mating ritual, as there are times where my male intermedius has called all through the night only for me to find eggs in the morning.

Just give it time, and I'm sure your frogs will figure it out. I believe mine were about a year old when they first started laying . . . maybe a bit younger.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

With trios in imitators, 2.1 breeds fine, usually a male is dominant over the other. This can take a while for males "coming of age" instead of the one quick spat adult males have when placed in a new environment. Happens with a number of different species, I currently have two young zaparo males doing the same thing... every morning at 5 am for a week and a half now I wake up to a war zone on their coco hut, and seeing a frog flung across the tank is not exactly what I want to see in the morning.

Your males will eventually nail down their pecking order. I don't think female choice would have anything to do with it, and if you think about it the dominant male is more likely to be the animal she'd want to breed with anyways for good gene stock, thats why competition within the same sex can be important - only the best become dominant and can breed.

It might even be the case of competition would actually encourage more breeding, if that's what you had in mind.

1.2 is a completely different story. I've got a group of imis in which the male is 1.5 years, the two females are 2 years. No breeding at all from me or the former owners, and probibly won't until I take one of the females out. Female fighting isn't uncommon (these were raised together and seem peaceful), and I often hear stories of egg stomping and egg eating between females, assuming one female lets the other court the male! Its much harder to get a producing group out of that.

Now if you stick a whole bunch of males and females together (best if even or a little male heavy) that colony will reproduce like mad. The competition seems to encourage the animals to breed, and there are enough frogs to pester that the stress of being beat up on is spread around to the point of not being unhealthy.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Alan,

That was most helpful. Stupid question: should the insert cover the bottom half of the cannister?--I'm thinking they wouldn't lay on the "roof" as it were. (Note--subsequent post as I was composing this one disputes that assumption! I'm beginning to get the idea that for any question, the answer is always "whatever works the best for your particular frogs." ) 

Quote: "I do not pull all of my eggs. I know which eggs will do best in the viv and which are better pulled. " _That's_ intriguing. It is true, isn't it, that if eggs are left with the frogs they will go into tad-feeding mode eventually and stop breeding for a while?

Wow, 13 mos at breeding. Do you remember when your males started calling? Sounds like much individual variation has been observed. Think of the data we'd have if everyone kept meticulous records (my intent is always much better than my follow-through) and they were combined.

Thanks,
--Diane


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

In some cases, there is better egg survivorship when the parents take care of the eggs - one of the main reasons I now let my frogs care for their own eggs, less fungus problems for me!

I was hatching plenty of tricolor eggs, but noticed I had no fungal problems in tadpoles I had let the parents raise. They also just seemed to do slightly better as tads.

If you leave the eggs in with the frogs, they will usually not lay again until the clutch hatches, or is near to hatching. This means they produce less eggs than if you pulled them... when you pull them they are acting on the instinct that something has destroyed their clutch and they need to replace it.

This also goes with my theory that pulling eggs all the time causes extra stress on the animals, reproducing that much takes a toll, and usually requires the breeders to take a break, or their tadpoles/froglets might start getting weaker/smaller, SLS might start occuring, or occur more, or % of eggs fertilized and/or hatching in reduced. In the end, it seems to be healthier for the frogs to just let them do their thing IMO.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Mantellaprince20 said:


> Diane,
> 
> I have heard as well that it takes time for some frogs to produce good eggs. THat is another thing that is TOTALLY individual frog specific. There isn't a set way for that in any species. My vents took a few clutches to deliver me some good eggs, and even now that they have been breeding for a month or two I still am getting bad clutches occasionally. It may be diet dependant. As it is with my fantasticus and pumilio though, so far every single egg I have found has been fertile. It just depends on how the males manage to learn how to fertilize, or if the females can actually produce healthy eggs, or a combination. Intermedius I know are very similar to fantasticus, so I am sure you will get small eggloads, but they will focus more time into making sure they are healthy eggs. Take care, good luck with them
> 
> ed parker


Thanks, Ed. You've certainly had a lot of success. 

RE diet: my frogs eat melanogaster (dusted about twice a week) and their viv is heavily seeded with springtails. Occasionally I offer them hydei which they seem to like a lot and not have problems with--I just sometimes worry about them overeating with these "big" flies! But I think you might have been suggesting that our captive diets don't always supply all the right nutrients they would get in nature?

--Diane


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Diane: Yes - the insert goes on the bottom (wherever "bottom" is on a given wall). You may have to avoid the suction cup nib a little - if you use the drilling method. I have found that some thumbs will lay on the vertical side of the insert (or canister - if I'm not using an insert). It doesn't seem to matter.

I keep logs on all breeding pairs to track breeding, egg count, hatch outcome, problems etc etc etc. It helps me collect info between vivs, breeding pairs, find problems and keep track of info to fix them. There is too much going to to try to do it accurately from memory.

Here are two inserts I have in hatch-out tonight:



















Re: leaving eggs in the viv - I have a pair of actively breeding red Galacts whose eggs do better in the viv than out. I'm still experimenting with duplicating viv temps and humidity and other variables to fix this - because yes, I'd prefer to pull the eggs. I have 3-4 breeding pairs (Tincs and thumbnails) that will lay in multiple containers with clutches spaced every few days. I have a pair of orange galacts that will maintain eggs in a cocohut plus one film container - but not more.

Hope this helps!

Alan


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> In some cases, there is better egg survivorship when the parents take care of the eggs - one of the main reasons I now let my frogs care for their own eggs, less fungus problems for me!
> 
> I was hatching plenty of tricolor eggs, but noticed I had no fungal problems in tadpoles I had let the parents raise. They also just seemed to do slightly better as tads.


  Despite the wonderfully non-sterile broth in a brom axil...This is like how my hens can brood & hatch eggs laid on the henhouse floor in the middle of winter while if I let the humidity in the incubator fall by a fraction of a percent for a nanosecond or two the whole clutch is lost...

Yes, I had wondered about the possibility of depletion when eggs are repeatedly pulled as well. Q: when frogs are left with eggs to tend, does their courtship behavior fall off as well? I should think it would. Perhaps this leaves them more opportunity to eat well, rest, etc. 

--Diane


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

With eggfeeders and thumbnails, the pair still stays together to raise up the tad (in other species pretty much the male gaurds eggs, then transports them to water, the female's job is done). Males will usually guard the eggs (predators and competators, they don't want another male to sneak in and fertilize any eggs they didn't get!). Generally the male will transport tads, and he shows the female where the tadpoles are for her to deposit feeder eggs. 

Cool behavior - I can't remember if it was a pumilio or thumbnail (probibly goes for most of them!) but if you tried to get the tads out, they were incredibly hard to get out of the brom axils, very shy with any disturbance sending them to the bottom. Now the male would go into the water of the axil, and do this really soft call to the female (who followed him). This call makes the tadpole go nuts, it knows food is coming! So the female drops her butt in and lays some infertiles and the tad rips them to pieces.

Very cool stuff.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Wow, the posts come in faster than I can acknowledge them!



Homer said:


> I do simply have a pair in a 10 gallon vertical. I would like to try the film canister insert strategy, but my pair lays only in one film canister . . . over and over and over again. Some are laid in the bottom in the pool of water. Some are laid upside down in the film canister so that the tads will drop into the water when they hatch.
> 
> After having a run of 2 clutches (1-2 eggs each) that molded over, I decided to let the eggs hatch where they were laid. Since that time, the pair laid 3 clutches in the same film canister (5 eggs total). The first egg apparently just hatched, as I saw the male transporting a tad last night.
> 
> ...


Very interesting! I did not know they would lay multiple clutches together, or that male calling and/or egg-laying could happen overnight. No wonder there's no one-size-fits-all sticky on this! 

Do you (or anyone else?) know how many tads they can feed at once? I'm a long way from that, of course--your description just caused that question to occur to me.

Thanks,

Diane


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Alan Zimmerman said:


> Here are two inserts I have in hatch-out tonight:
> 
> 
> Re: leaving eggs in the viv - I have a pair of actively breeding red Galacts whose eggs do better in the viv than out. I'm still experimenting with duplicating viv temps and humidity and other variables to fix this - because yes, I'd prefer to pull the eggs. I have 3-4 breeding pairs (Tincs and thumbnails) that will lay in multiple containers with clutches spaced every few days. I have a pair of orange galacts that will maintain eggs in a cocohut plus one film container - but not more.


Alan, thanks for more great pictures! Really "worth a thousand words" as they say. All the tad & froglet raising must keep you incredibly busy. I think the people on this forum should write the books--there's certainly far more experience & expertise here than I've found in any now on the market.

Thanks!

--Diane


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> With eggfeeders and thumbnails, the pair still stays together to raise up the tad (in other species pretty much the male gaurds eggs, then transports them to water, the female's job is done). Males will usually guard the eggs (predators and competators, they don't want another male to sneak in and fertilize any eggs they didn't get!). Generally the male will transport tads, and he shows the female where the tadpoles are for her to deposit feeder eggs.
> 
> Cool behavior - I can't remember if it was a pumilio or thumbnail (probibly goes for most of them!) but if you tried to get the tads out, they were incredibly hard to get out of the brom axils, very shy with any disturbance sending them to the bottom. Now the male would go into the water of the axil, and do this really soft call to the female (who followed him). This call makes the tadpole go nuts, it knows food is coming! So the female drops her butt in and lays some infertiles and the tad rips them to pieces.
> 
> Very cool stuff.


Corey, Thanks very much for the information here and in your previous post about the dynamics of various m/f combinations & group size. You're speaking to an erstwhile field biologist and I couldn't agree more that this stuff is just so cool. (I think all good biologists use "cool" a lot.  ) 

Good stuff about pecking order and competition possibly encouraging more breeding. Seems to me that male competition is especially helpful for animals that claim territories and use aural signals to advertise. (It's common knowledge among budgie breeders that the chances of successful nesting vastly improve when pairs of birds can hear each other.)

One thing I worry about is that a 10g has to be nowhere near the size of one, let alone two, natural territories. Even tho I'm pretty space limited (like everyone else, I know) I feel pretty chintzy...( I do have plans for expansion). But so far so good, I guess, as the animals are robust and active and seem to be maturing on schedule.

And regarding the dynamics of larger groups--please excuse another off-topic anecdote--reminds me of how we were able to keep _five_ banty roosters together successfully for several years. Was a hoot to watch--pecking order (literally!) changed all the time, but no one stayed on the bottom for long...kinda rough on the hens, though!  

Question: regarding the facultative egg-feeders--do non-egg-fed froglets ever occur in the wild, or is the distinction based just on the fact that it is possible for keepers to artificially raise them in captivity? I guess an "orphan" tad that could survive in a brom axil on misc. water critters would be pretty adaptive...

--Diane


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The thumbnails are non-obligate egg feeders, then there are (with current taxonomy) two egg feeding/obligate egg feeder groups (we lump them together in the hobby). This is not based on what we can and can't raise in captivity, it has to do with how specialized the tads are. Non-obligates will eat eggs given them, but will also go for bacteria, algae, insects that fall into the water (or articficial foods we give them) and can be raised without these eggs. Obligates (which ever term you want to use) have tadpoles that are so specialized that they can't eat anything else - if they don't get eggs they starve to death. There have been numorous experiments with varying degrees of success in raising these animals up without mom, but usually involve carefully prepared eggs of other dendrobatids or frogs.

I wonder if this evolved due to food availability for tads in the wild?

Its also known that in certain cichlids that a pair will not breed unless there is at least one other male to create some competition. Of course in the limited confines of a tank (can't escape like in our tanks) that extra male is bound to get his ass kicked and often killed, so there were many ways to try and get around this (a 75 gallon tank - these were cichlids the size of oscars- with 1/3 seperated by the egg crating that we use for false bottoms was enough to get the pair to breed without the extra and very valuable male getting beaten to a pulp or worse). 

I did freshwater fish for a number of years, learned a lot of interesting things about population dynamics (I worked with a bunch of fish that were aggressive just like dendrobatids), which I've since applied to my frogs. This is why I tend to keep my animals in either 1.1 pairs or groups.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

c'est ma said:


> Wow, the posts come in faster than I can acknowledge them!
> 
> Very interesting! I did not know they would lay multiple clutches together, or that male calling and/or egg-laying could happen overnight. No wonder there's no one-size-fits-all sticky on this!
> 
> ...


I don't know how many tads they can feed at once. I pull the tads, and feed them myself. They don't take too long to develop, and are pretty aggressive feeders. I use Tadpole bites and Hikari frozen bloodworms, and keep a clump of hair algae in the rearing cup for them to munch on.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, I have film cannisters with suction cups on order from Quality Captives and will be adding them in strategic places to the viv. Other than that, I guess it's watch & wait. I thank all responders for the wealth of information.

Homer, I hope I will be making use of your last bit of advice--on tad raising--in the near future.

Corey, you make me wish I were still professionally connected with biology. BTW, when I was in school ( in the Devonian), we learned that "facultative" was the opposite term to "obligate"; "non-obligate" does sound better. 

I really enjoy the speculation on evolutionary reasons for observed behaviors, life cycles, etc. Just so fascinating! (Why on earth would anyone want to study anything else?  )

Thanks again,

Diane


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Update: first eggs laid last week, 2 on Friday, 2 more on Saturday! Found the first two together in the center of a peperomia leaf; the next two were in two separate locations on the left side glass. 

The eggs were moved to petri dishes with a few drops of water from the viv, but fungused within a couple of days, not too surprisingly. The adults are now between 9 & 10 months old.

While awaiting the next clutch (maybe in two weeks or so?) I'm avidly reading tad-rearing threads.  

Questions: is it true of all species that it is best to leave eggs in place for at least a day or so to be sure they are fertilized? And for those who leave them in till tadpole stage, at what point do you actually remove them? Right before hatching? After? Surely not after they're transported to broms?

Thanks,

--Diane


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

will all intermedius females lay eggs for the tads to eat? or is this something they may or may not do? 

also are people having better luck letting the parents take care of the tads or pulling the tads and feeding themselves?


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

The frogs who has developed the egg feeding as a calling response belongs to the amazonean thumbs (vanzolinii). The mechanism could have been evolved from canibalism of eggs, as is seen on less specializated egg feeders, as Osteocephalus oophagus (Hylidae), However, it is thought that it could be a response to small phytotelmata tadpole deposition, where feeding resources are limitated.
we're having a great topic about egg feeding, mostly in obligatory egg feeders, take a look :wink: 
http://dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14161


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

audioandroid said:


> will all intermedius females lay eggs for the tads to eat? or is this something they may or may not do?
> 
> also are people having better luck letting the parents take care of the tads or pulling the tads and feeding themselves?


I generally pull the eggs that I find - but my Intermedius sometimes manage to hide some eggs from "The Giant Hand" and I catch a glimpse of a tad being taken for a ride:










They do well both ways - although hand-raised seems to result in slightly larger froglets (for me).

Alan


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Glad to hear from you again, Alan, and I sure love that pic.

I've reread all the previous posts but I don't think you said just when you remove the eggs? As soon as you see them or after they've had a few days to develop?

In your pics of incubating eggs: I assume that's a damp paper towel on the bottom of the container? And do you keep an airtight lid on it? Does the paper towel then provide enough humidity?

Thanks,

--Diane


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Diane: I pull all eggs no sooner than 24 hours after discovery. I keep them in a Sterilite shoe box with a slightly damp paper towel on the bottom. Too high of humidity can be a problem for some eggs - I keep sweater boxes at various stages of dampness depending on the history with that morph. I use Sterilite shoe boxes and I find the lids to be about 98% air-tight.

One of the reasons I pull eggs is that the trio are more productive when I do. When they are raising tads - they stop egg production.

I have pdfs that I leave eggs in the viv - due to my experience of the egg outcome being better. As I was telling Corey a few weeks ago - I have one morph that I have an extremely high egg molding problem with and I'm experimenting with leaving them in the viv.

Good luck!

Alan


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks, Alan! 

Hope I have some more eggs to practice on soon.

Then I'll probably think of even more questions...

--Diane


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