# Where have all the gold mantellas gone???



## PAULSCHUMANN (Apr 20, 2005)

I used to buy gold mantellas (huge healthy imports) for 9$ each in quantities all the time a few years ago. now I never see them anymore...I see every other specie of mantella available but no golds. I mean the true golds "Mantella aurantiaca", not the M. mylotympanum everyone is advertising as golds or reds.

Do I see the same thing happening to the Aurantiaca that I saw happen to the pumilio. about 6-8 years ago I would get pumilio all day long for 10$-12$ each in quantities now...holy smokes...75$ is cheap and 150$ is a not uncommon asking price.

Did they get changed in CITES, are there new restrictions on Madagascar, why is every other specie (except cowanii) regularly imported still, but no golds?


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Paul,

You're a little late on a lot of things! Just kidding. :wink: I just picked up five juveniles from Devin (Devin Edmonds) from IAD, 5 for $135! They are incredible. Another guy had adults for about $50 at IAD.


----------



## fleenor1 (Feb 18, 2005)

Paul,
This is new today:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6952


----------



## PAULSCHUMANN (Apr 20, 2005)

I know there are a few CB available. I am wondering where all the imports went?


----------



## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

It's debatable what happened to all of the goldens that were once available. They have the same CITES status as other Mantella species, CITES II, so they can be exported. Some have suggested that they are "on hold" from being exported because they were over collected and the wild populations need time to recover. My guess, pure speculation, is that the populations that were easy to collect from have been depleted or severely harmed and now it's difficult to collect them. Some wild-caught aurantiaca have come in this year, but not enough for you to find them at $9 from every other dealer out there. Fires also damaged the habitat of a few populations maybe three or four years ago, combined with the large amount of collecting, this probably took its toll. I would guess that more will trickle in in the future, but probably not in the numbers that they once were imported in.


----------



## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

Of the i beleive 6 original major localities(stanizewskis book only list 4) 3 localities are totally gone, 1 locality is severely decimated, and the 2 others are threatened. Most mantella (and other herps) areas are being threatened mainly by farmers clear burning then selling the charcoal. Many of the forests are going this way. A photo taken by satellite shows a red "ring" around madagascar that is erosion of the soil going into the ocean.I cant remember right but i believe it goes out more than a mile.  


Sean


----------



## Guest (May 15, 2005)

*Madagascar*

I thought I had heard something along the lines of Madagascar outlawing the collecting of these frogs. If so, we are gonna have to depend on breeders. How come they are not as common as darts when it comes to captive breds? Are they harder to breed?


----------



## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

According to USFWS there has been no legal export of aurantiaca this year or last year. Most likely a bunch came through as milotympanum.

Sean


----------



## Guest (May 15, 2005)

fleenor1 said:


> Paul,
> This is new today:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6952


ouch you guys pay alot over here!

they are pretty common over in the uk: ive got some for sale at dendroworld.co.uk however i dont think i could get them to the states!

Jon


----------



## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

I think the answer to the question lies in the question itself. You said you got them (aurantiaca) all the time for 10 bucks each. What happened to all of them, why don't you have them now? Not trying to point blame at you, just making a point that so many people were getting them soo cheap that little or no effort was put towards captive breeding. They became "disposable" frogs. In some cases, quite literally. I used to see a guy at shows that would have hundreds of them in a 10 gallon tank. The live ones would be hopping over the layer of dead ones. After a few appearances at shows with this lack of regard for life, the vendor was consequently banned from this promoter's shows.


----------



## Guest (May 15, 2005)

*dead frogs*

I can't believe that anyone who would call them selves show or expo worthy would keep conditions like that. When I worked for a local petstore (petland discounts) I used to freak when the mice or rats died. To bad my boss didnt care like I did. And i dont even like rodents. 

Its good point about what happened to the mantellas auranticus (or whatever thier name is). Do you guys think the same might occur with other cheap imported frogs, like say, Bombina orientalis? They are very common, and cheap. Yet, i dont hear about any efforts to breed them or to sell the captive bred ones. I dont even know if the ones you find at pet stores are imported or captive bred. Anyone know? I would hate to be posting a message on a frog board 20 years from now, telling the newbies about the pretty bombinas, and how every pet store used to sell them.


----------



## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

They are available but not at the old day prices. I've been told Madagascar won't allow export of them. I guess they are more at risk than some of the other Mantella. Rich Tarell of Insular exotics is breeding them. He has near adults available. If you are interested in some look him up.


----------



## Guest (May 16, 2005)

The M.aurantiaca are my most favourite of all, there beauty and curiousity are always a pleasure to observe. I believe these jewels are a extinct species or very near . The aurantiaca also came in a amazing yellow morph and the ruba morph , if anyone still has these morphs in captive breeding please speak up :lol: Id give my left arm for any of these or M.cowani and M.haraldmeieri but I bet these are also a lost species, so sad.


----------



## Guest (May 16, 2005)

*gold mantellas*

I would rather a thousand come in and 300 go to breeders than watch as they fall off the face of the earth.It makes me sick that they restrict animals in a country that has people starving and in need of food land etc.
The natives will not change they have to eat, even when we pay higher prices here the collectors still get nothing in return. They can clear cut the land the frogs live on and get 2 to 3 good years of zebu grazing.So why would they care just little orange frogs to them nothing special.
later


----------



## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

*WC over CB???*

I have been reading this thread with some interest. Whatever the exact details, it seems obvious that M.aurantiaca is threatened (in general, not necessarily "officially threatened") in some way in its native land. They have definitely been listed as CITES II. And we are not seeing many, if any, WC adults (BTW, if anyone sees any, I am very interested in diversifying my bloodlines). But other than to diversify bloodlines of an existing golden breeding project, why would you want to see a return to the days of cheap WC frogs?

In the past 1.5 years I have brought in several batches of WC mantellas of different species as founder stock for breeding projects. I have lost a good number of them to parasitic infestation. Some were even lost despite diagnosis and treatment. CB frogs are just as colorful and much healthier, in general. I even have some CB animals I produced that were examined by a vet and received 3 clean fecals to further demonstrate their health. Short of maintaining healthy bloodlines in the captive population, it would seem wrong to remove specimens of a threatened species from the wild only to end up in a novice's tank as an exhibit animal with no hope of contributing their genetic material to the gene pool.

I am not implying that the original author has plans to do anything, one way or the other. But we all know that large numbers of inexpensive animals end up as disposable pets every year. And as froggers, it is our responsibility to promote the sound management of species and to encourage and support captive breeding, especially of threatened species. After reading Sean's post about the situation for aurantiaca in the wild, I feel even more strongly that these animals are doomed if they are not bred in captivity. Whether you buy them from myself or one of the other breeders out there, golden mantellas should be purchased for the purpose of breeding to sustain the captive population, as it may end up being the only population within our lifetime.  

Fortunately, mantellas are more popular in Europe than they are in the States. And it is encouraging to know that there are a good number of them available there. But the current status of these forgs in the wild makes importation into the US problematic with a lot of red tape to cut through and a lot of time/money to be spent for a few animals.

Whether any frog is available as a WC specimen or not, support of cottage industry breeders is a good way to reduce demand for WC stock and encourage captive breeding for future generations. Zoos don't always have time/space/money to devote to every species, so private hobbyists are an indispensible part of the conservation equation. And as someone else mentioned, it is possible that FBT will go the way of the gold mantella with the numbers that are exported annually.

Didn't mean for this to sound quite so preachy, but I am passionate about these animals. And it disturbs me to see people apparently longing for the days of $9 frogs. These forums are archived and who knows what people will say or think when they read this stuff down the road.
Thanks for wading through this!
Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics
Oh, and thanks to Michael Shrom for the plug


----------



## Guest (May 16, 2005)

*gold mantellas*

We were all novice's once werent we I still am .Expert is a term thrown around loosely.
chad


----------



## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

> I would rather a thousand come in and 300 go to breeders than watch as they fall off the face of the earth.It makes me sick that they restrict animals in a country that has people starving and in need of food land etc.
> The natives will not change they have to eat, even when we pay higher prices here the collectors still get nothing in return. They can clear cut the land the frogs live on and get 2 to 3 good years of zebu grazing.So why would they care just little orange frogs to them nothing special.


If things were more evenly distributed I’d be inclined to support the collection of mantella frogs, but with the way things work now I can’t help but feel sick when I buy cheap imports. Few are able to make a living from collecting reptiles and amphibians in Madagascar, thinking that you are supporting some poor family in Madagascar by purchasing wild-caught mantella frogs is naive. From what I’ve read, it’s often just kids out in the wood catching frogs and bringing them to local reptile collectors in their village who then sell them to larger distributors. Those who profit most from wild-caught mantella frogs are not the villagers in Madagascar, but the companies that import/export reptiles here in the States and the dealers that then distribute them to us. I wish I could remember a source and accurate figure, but I remember reading in some book that villagers who collect Uroplatus geckos make a few cents per gecko, while we buy them over here for upwards of $100 a piece. I assume that the markup on mantella frogs is similar. If this was proportionately distributed and there were tighter restrictions on the amount that were able to be exported, it might be possible to setup some type of system so that the collectors in Madagascar would value their land for the frogs that live on it, but the way things are now I doubt this is the case.


----------



## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

*Re: gold mantellas*



wort said:


> We were all novice's once werent we I still am .Expert is a term thrown around loosely.
> chad



True, but rare frogs shouldn't have to suffer the ignorance of unexperienced keepers. .


----------



## PAULSCHUMANN (Apr 20, 2005)

It's not that i miss paying 9$ per frog, I was just curious as to what happened to them? I am more concerned with how the wild poulations are doing. I couldn't figure out why 90% of mantella species are flowing into the country like water and the imported golds have all but vanished. I was also kicking ideas around for breeding projects involving aurantiaca and cowani, and I would prefer a bunch of imports to start quarantining and treating to become future breeders because I don't think I have a good chance at a diversified bloodline since there arent many breeders in the states (that I know of).


----------



## Guest (May 16, 2005)

*gold mantellas*

By the time it took me to write this reply I guarantee something went extinct, that is the reality of it not the exception.


----------



## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

I guess it all comes down to CB vs. WC. While it's unfortunate and downright depressing what's happening to these and other frogs, I think we're rather fortunate that many frogs such as darts and mantellas are being increasingly dependent on CB individuals. 

From a moralistic standpoint, WC animals pose several problems. First, they deplete the wild populations, and while habitat loss is the main reason for declines in most commercially collected amphibians, overcollecting can pose a problem as well. Second, sometimes collecting can lead to the spread of diseases and exotic plants (though this is minimized when locals are doing the collecting.) I've read a number of stories where biologists doing research inadvertantly led to the spread of a disease or plant that caused great problems in the local environment. Third, an appalling number of these animals die even before arriving at the distributors/pet stores, and many die at these places. 

By relying on captive bred animals, we avoid the $9 frog situation, which helps keep animals out of the hands of novices. Even if they do try to buy an expensive animal, they're more likely to try and take care of it. This in turn leads to a more informed group of keepers, which benefits the hobby. Being able to buy your frogs for dirt cheap prices may sound appealing, but in the end, it still works out because when you buy a frog that costs $100, you can always sell/trade the offspring.

Wild catching isn't evil, and I don't think it should be entirely stopped, but I do appreciate and approve of the general CB trend that many frogs are taking. In the long run, $9 frogs help nobody.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

One of the problems with Madagascar right now is that the goverment is not in control of the entire island only sections of it. So what is happening is that people are beaching boats and collecting anything of value and transporting it to sell. If I remember correctly, one of the ports of export is in control of the other factions and they issue the CITES paperwork despite the Madagascan goverment prohibiting the sale and transport of the animals out of the country. The frogs and lizards and not being hit as hard as the tortoises. The larger radiated tortoises are being slaughtered for their livers which are preserved for sale in Asia while the smaller Pyxis species are collected for the Asian pet trade. Historically people only collected the largest tortoises but the market is so lucrative that even very small animals are being killed for thier livers. (I have heard it described by field researchers as a total decimation of tortoises with only a field on bones of dead tortoises with no signs of live ones of any size). 

M. aurantiaca (if I rememeber correctly) is also not from a region that is accessiable to the poachers. 

While aurantiaca may be rare now, I can remember when it was considered a very common frog and not worth a lot of attention so the history of the species in captivity needs to be kept in mind when comments about beginners killing rare species are being made. (But then I can remember when I could buy histrionicus for >$15 and sold them for $29.99........) (when Phelsuma grandis were $500 each and the lowly leopard gecko were $200 a pair and brazilian rainbow boas were retailing for $19.99)

Ed


----------

