# Cold Juvenile Frog Treatment



## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

This is more of a just in case thread, and yes I'm very aware that it's a extremely bad bad day to be shipping frogs anywhere and plan to make the seller very aware that I'm extremely displeased with his decision to ship them out last night and only inform me of that fact at 9:30pm.

Thankfully my boss is very understanding and let me work from home today.

In any case they were supposed to arrive by 10:30 am and are two hours late so far. Just in case they arrive and are cold and unresponsive what steps can I take to warm them up safely?


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

What method of shipping was used? Not shipped to a staffed fed x office for pick up? Very,very irresponsible of shipper to ship anywhere in the USA today! When frogs arrive i would open box and visually check to see if they arrived alive,let them warm up to room temps,dont poke and prod them around.Once they seem ok after a half hour or so then you can go ahead and set them in their viv,or hopefully quarantine set up!Also dont place them under a bright lamp or light to warm them up,just ambient room light!Hopefully all will ok,let us know!
Ron


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

To echo what Capt Ron said... you definitely do not want to try to rapidly warm them up. This may make things worse.

I shipped some epipedobates a while back and one of them showed up sprawled out like it was dead... then magically popped back to life in like half an hour. Just sitting at room temperature.

If there is a problem (hopefully there won't be) I would just put them somewhere that has temps in the mid 70s or so. That is your best bet.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

It doesn't look good for any of them, they simply don't look alive. I've misted them with ro water and put them in the growing out tank where it's warm and will see if I see any signs of movement over the next hour.

I've already informed the seller and expressed my anger over his choice of shipping as he did and without considering the effect of the weather.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Wow, that is very careless of the seller to ship them in this weather and I'm sorry to hear they arrived in that condition. I'd continue to do what your doing and monitor the situation. Hopefully they will bounce back. 

Just curious, but how was the shipping box packaged? Did it include multiple heat packs or what? And it was shipped directly to your door?!


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Warm them up slowly and they may make it.

Several years ago, I had a similar situation and received a shipment of 30 pumilio on a 20 degree day. The package was left at the front door (no knock, no ringing of the doorbell). When I opened it up, all frogs appeared to be dead, but after a few hours every single one recovered. 

Who the hell would ship during a record setting cold snap? Oh wait .........


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Brian317 said:


> Wow, that is very careless of the seller to ship them in this weather and I'm sorry to hear they arrived in that condition. I'd continue to do what your doing and monitor the situation. Hopefully they will bounce back.
> 
> Just curious, but how was the shipping box packaged? Did it include multiple heat packs or what? And it was shipped directly to your door?!


Very well actually, a heat pack in the outer box and one in the inner insulated box. The thing was they got heldup due to issues at the Memphis TN airport and sat in the absolute cold. The heatpacks were 40 hour heat packs and they were cold when they got here which indicates that the box got down to freezing temperatures.

I'm keeping them moist and at room temp of 74 degrees in the grow out tank in the small solo cup they came in with moistened sphagnum moss. Oddly enouigh the two cups of ff in the outer box are still alive so maybe there is hope?

In any case the seller was already aware of the shipping problems and if by the end of today they havent recovered will be more carefully shipping me replacements.

Damnit they were beautiful though, lovely red galac juviniles the exact shade of reddish orange I had hoped for and healthy looking...if they weren't breathing that is.


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## redfrogger (Nov 6, 2010)

Did the shipper even use PCMs?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

edwardsatc said:


> Who the hell would ship during a record setting cold snap? Oh wait .........



Based on your other post elsewhere I get where you are going with this... And I want to say that I disagree wholeheartedly with this kind of blind speculation. 

The buyer had not named the seller in this thread (and they shouldn't). You are doing a disservice to everyone by inserting your own unfounded assumptions. 

Now, let that be the end of any speculation in his thread. Any more will be removed.


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## Amphibian addict (May 15, 2012)

edwardsatc said:


> Warm them up slowly and they may make it.
> 
> Several years ago, I had a similar situation and received a shipment of 30 pumilio on a 20 degree day.


30 PUMILIO. Why in the world would you order 30 pumilio at once for!


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

redfrogger said:


> Did the shipper even use PCMs?


pmc? not sure what that is? they did have a heat packet of the same type NEHerp used in their shipment both in the outer regular box and then in the inner insulated one. I'm still baffled at the fruit flies surviving while the frogs didn't (or at least appear to still have not).


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## redfrogger (Nov 6, 2010)

Phase Change Material. These are a MUST in shipping. I use them every time. In hot/cold/ or good temp. These will regulate the internal temps around 22 degrees Celcius. They act as a temperature buffer.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

redfrogger said:


> Phase Change Material. These are a MUST in shipping. I use them every time. In hot/cold/ or good temp. These will regulate the internal temps around 22 degrees Celcius. They act as a temperature buffer.


What do those look like? There were two packs of some type in the box about four by six inches fairly flat and heavy for the fact they were only about a half inch deep. Seemed as if they had some type of dense material in them.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Should I keep lightly misting them whenever they seem dry on top? I don't want to waterlog them and the moss is getting pretty damp under them.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Kudaria said:


> What do those look like? There were two packs of some type in the box about four by six inches fairly flat and heavy for the fact they were only about a half inch deep. Seemed as if they had some type of dense material in them.


Hard plastic material, sort of opaque white, with what almost looks like solid, (but warm) white ice inside? That would be a Phase 22 panel. If someone tries shipping in this kind of weather that would not be enough. 4 to 6 Phase panels with a 60 hour, old school, heat pack "piggybacked" onto a phase 22 panel, might be more inline if someone felt they HAD to ship in this weather.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> Hard plastic material, sort of opaque white, with what almost looks like solid, (but warm) white ice inside? That would be a Phase 22 panel. If someone tries shipping in this kind of weather that would not be enough. 4 to 6 Phase panels with a 60 hour, old school, heat pack "piggybacked" onto a phase 22 panel, might be more inline if someone felt they HAD to ship in this weather.


I think they put too much faith in the shipper's guarantees of arrival times which they didn't meet by about three hours. I'm still confused though as to how the fruit flies made it where the frogs (who were in an insulated container inside the container the fruit flies were in) still don't look alive though I understand I should give them several more hours?


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> Based on your other post elsewhere I get where you are going with this... And I want to say that I disagree wholeheartedly with this kind of blind speculation.
> 
> Now, let that be the end of any speculation in his thread. Any more will be removed.


It was meant to be in jest but, now that you point it out, I can see where it could be taken totally differently. Feel free to redact that line of the post.

That said ...



carola1155 said:


> The buyer had not named the seller in this thread (and they shouldn't). You are doing a disservice to everyone by inserting your own unfounded assumptions.


I didn't name, imply, or assume anything. You made the only assumption here. You assumed you knew what i was trying to say. As I said, feel free to remove it.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> Hard plastic material, sort of opaque white, with what almost looks like solid, (but warm) white ice inside? That would be a Phase 22 panel. If someone tries shipping in this kind of weather that would not be enough. 4 to 6 Phase panels with a 60 hour, old school, heat pack "piggybacked" onto a phase 22 panel, might be more inline if someone felt they HAD to ship in this weather.


Ok yes they did use phase 22 panels but as I said hey were 4"x6" and in some type of cloth type pouch. The frogs shipped out at 6pm last night and did arrive this morning at the airport here at 9am, then Fedex took until 1:20 to deliver them. I suspect it was the delays getting back out of TN last night that did them in rather than the delay today as it got down to 10 degrees there last night.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I hope you will leave feedback where it is appropriate.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Kudaria said:


> Ok yes they did use phase 22 panels but as I said hey were 4"x6" and in some type of cloth type pouch. The frogs shipped out at 6pm last night and did arrive this morning at the airport here at 9am, then Fedex took until 1:20 to deliver them. I suspect it was the delays getting back out of TN last night that did them in rather than the delay today as it got down to 10 degrees there last night.


I'm still confused. Neither the Phase panel, not the Phase pouch, come in a cloth bag. Here is the panel (click on either of the 2 optional pics) Phase 22
Here is the pouch. Phase 22

The Phase 22 pouches that are used in the hobby, contain only half as much phase change material as the Phase 22 panels in the hobby. So it takes 2 soft sided Phase 22 pouches, to equal one Phase 22 panel. 

I do not know who the shipper is, but if they used only 2 Phase 22 *pouches*, then they truly have no idea how to ship.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I hope you will leave feedback where it is appropriate.


I'd be trying to get a refund first.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Sigh still no sign of breathing or movement, I think I'm going to give up hope at this point. I do wish they had lived, they were very pretty young frogs.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> I'd be trying to get a refund first.


Ah well red galacs aren't exactly common, and they were (other than cold and not breathing) very healthy looking otherwise. Mind you this will figure in heavily toward me ever ordering from them again since I feel that they were irresponsible to have shipped at all yesterday, but their frogs seem alright.

Not to mention that they prefer replacing rather than refunding if they have a replacement so it's not really an option as they can replace them.


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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

Couldn't you also ship with heatpack(s) and an insulated (styrofoam) box? Sorry yo hijack, but I'm shipping a tortoise soon


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

InvertaHerp said:


> Couldn't you also ship with heatpack(s) and an insulated (styrofoam) box? Sorry yo hijack, but I'm shipping a tortoise soon


They did, they just weren't expecting the plane to get stuck in Memphis in 10 degree weather for several hours. I think people have gotten too used to mild weather and don't really have enough respect for how cold a cold snap really can get and how deadly it can be. This one certainly isn't the worse I remember as I remember negative digits in the 70's in Tennessee. It may be in the south, but it can get very cold there in the winter.


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