# How does one import WC frogs?



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I've known a few hobbyists import their own animals. One in particular has been able to acquire some very unusual forms of Pipid frogs, which was to my liking...but unfortunately my deal fell through so I couldn't acquire any from him the next time he imported. Apparently, he said it was VERY expensive...I guess my "pitching in" wasn't high enough. :roll: 

1. What type of paper work do you need? 

2. Who catches the animals for you? 

3. How much can this cost? (probably a ton)

4. What sort of legal issues must you go through?

Thanks


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

I have a few people I know who import directly. Unless you have alot of money to lose, it is not a worthy venture. Minimum orders are around $3000, shipping is expensive and you may not even get the animals you actually ordered. Businesses who spend the most money get the best imports and have access to animals that are not even offered to other businesses. It works the same way for wholesalers as well. To get a highly desired animal, you may have to buy 1000 cheap lizards that may or may not live and then find a way to sell them. Finding a reliable importer is also difficult.


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## dpotter1 (Feb 29, 2004)

http://worldwidefauna.com/

You might want to look at this site. This is how many pet shops and others start inporting animals. It will give yu a general idea of how it works.

Doug


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

wow i went thru that amphibs on that site and they had 2 Atelopus species offered....someone! Quick! order em! and put me on the list


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

wow i went thru that amphibs on that site and they had 2 Atelopus species offered....someone! Quick! order em! and put me on the list  


oops double post


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## dcameron (Jun 9, 2004)

Whats even more interesting is that they have pictures of an "atelopus breeding farm". Does anyone know if these have entered the states yet?


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

They do not have everything available that is listed on that site. Many of the rare stuff that appears on that site never even makes it into the US or is shipped in one or two shipments. They just list everything that could possibly be collected from a country and you may or may not get what you request depending on what is actually collected in that country.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> Whats even more interesting is that they have pictures of an "atelopus breeding farm". Does anyone know if these have entered the states yet?


Check the "Operation Ecuadorian Atelopus - Updated 03/16/06" link at the top of every dendroboard page under the sponsor banners. This isn't a farm for frogs to make it into our hobby, but a farm to help with native populations.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Since I bring in animals from outside the U.S. I will note that there are a certain number of risks. Abandon your concepts of "fair" and "getting your money back" if some things go wrong. Your money (usual minimum order is $3,000 or more) will be outside the country - sometimes for months. You can get a lot of sick animals, considerable die-offs, shipping delays, weather problems (chilled animals) that cause deaths, customs issues etc etc.

Dealer with an exporter outside the U.S. is NOT like dealing with the pet store down the street. There are shared risks - but as the recipient you usually hold the largest share of risk. I know folks that have been stiffed for thousands of dollars on a single shipment.

Caveat emptor.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Is it possible, to acquire the permits, go down to the actual country, and collect them yourself? Then you could have somebody at your business intercept them immediately (send them by air freight ASAP as live cargo) to take care of them?

But I'm sure that's just as expensive and there are inherent risks (for yourself) but I'm sure a herpteculturist would do a better job of making sure that the animals aren't beaten up as badly.

One such advantage, you KNOW what you're looking for, you can pick out males/females, etc.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Doug, I’ve often thought about this. In the killifish hobby there are a number of people who go to Africa and Uruguay on a regular basis to collect wild fish and bring them back to the hobby. Unfortunately many South American countries are not amiable to this. I wonder if it is possible to collect any wild dart frogs as an American. It would certainly make for an interesting vacation. Are there any darts in Uruguay?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Thing is, so many hobbyists go down to Costa Rica on vacation and see right up in their faces, BJ pumilio, for example (but I do not know the laws). Go to Surinam, and you could find A. spurmarius and A. flavescens if you look carefully in the forest...and I don't understand why they couldn't be collected if D. tinctorius are also collected legally (I think).

I think its more of a problem because its very dangerous if you have no experience going to foreign places like without a guide because of the disease, predators, natives, etc. 

however, I know of many Nepenthes nurseries that are stationed in Borneo that regularly go out, collect, but their nursery is right there.

Some cool amphibians just would not be imported because of lack of demand. But I'm sure unless you're running a full scale breeding project for a business, it probably isn't worth it for the average hobbyist.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

you can collect whatever you want in SA, just have fun with customs and interpol when you get caught.


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

I think there are ethical issues to be considered too. We are at a point where businesses are using Dendrobatids as a way to conserve the forests they live in. Direct importation, at least to my knowledge, has done nothing to help conservation of the frogs or of the forest. 

An arguable point, I know. But all the same I think we have a responsibilty in the hobby to preserve the frogs in the wild, and thier habitat. There is always gonna be demand from folks to have the "newest species"- but the Dendro hobby is showing a lot of maturity in throwing it's weight behind in-country breeding programs and eschewing the rampant exploitation of wild populations. Mantellas come to mind as a direct contrast. 

The "farm" model has worked some serious magic when it comes to butterflies and thier collectors. I would say, if you want the latest-greatest, help start up other frogs-for-forest deals in other parts of Central and South America (...or Madagascar...maybe it's not too late).

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I do not wish to stray too much off topic in my own post, but...

Perhaps somebody should someday start a captive breeding facility in the home country or a tropical location? We have a lot of frogs from Costa Rica, Brazil, and Surinam. Due to the availability and diversity of species interesting hobbyists in these countries, perhaps a business could take hold there....but most likely a wholesaler.

One could produce many hard to breed amphibians in a greenhouse setting...but only in a tropical place. The best situation is to raise the frogs close to their country of origin (best to avoid escapees and alien fauna issues) but certainly a good tropical location (depending on the frog) would do. This is similar to what a few Nepenthes nurseries do.

But unlike just ranching, the wholesaler could propagate their frogs and acclimate offspring to vivariums/tanks in their facility, making them more suited for export to a retailer. 

http://www.borneoexotics.com/aspx/nurseries.aspx


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Isn't that exactly what is being done with the farm raised frogs we're importing now?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I believe all ranchers raise them either in large greenhouses or collect them off of their private land. 

What I was getting at, the frogs would be acclimated at the facility to captive tank life...BEFORE they are shipped out. But yes, it is similar to the rancher in the sense most likely it will be a wholesale operation, as it is too costly to have another "intercepting" facility back in the home country. That would be the most ideal.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Doug, Email Mark Pepper at understoryenterprises.com. He is doing this in peru right now, hence the peruvian shipments of some frogs taht came in last year. He is doing amazing things right now not only conserving the habitat of various dendrobatids, but making some available to us that we would never see.

It is not impossible to bring darts back to the U.S. from SA, but you need to do it right. If we send an exporter down there to collect as many as possible, just imagine how the populations are going to take that. I for one am against the over exploitation of the darts just for the hobby. Over exploiting them can be just as dangerous for them as deforestation. 

There are ways to get them here which would not be to damaging, such as the case with scientists and researchers. With the proper permits, you can bring from some countries, dendrobatid frogs. There are some countries however that are extremely limiting, and costa rica is one of them. I know some people that had all the research permits and everything worked out, and CR still wouldn't let the frogs leave the country. 

For now though, just travel to these countries, observe the frogs, take your pictures, and leave them be . The last thing we need to do is over exploit them. We have a vast array of species available in the states, surely plenty to tickle anyones fancy . Also, support efforts to prevent overexploitation and deforestation, to help preserve the native species in their pristine habitats. Driving through costa rica, I could only imagine how many populations of pumilio had been ran to the ground as the people destroyed the forests, and severly fragmented them. Just remember conservation is more important than our hobbyist wants and desires,

My two cents worth,

ed parker


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> The last thing we need to do is over exploit them. We have a vast array of species available in the states, surely plenty to tickle anyones fancy


I'm not trying to start an argument, nor am I saying "I am for overexploitation." But you yourself (and I do too) collect Mantellas which are critically endangered and are collected far more frequently than dendrobates. And there is a ton of dieoff (which makes things worse) when the frogs are exported...

But some frogs, like the Atelopus spumarius, are imported at the WRONG time (when fat reserves are down), and there is so much dieoff. I think its more harmful (but obviously cheaper, which is why people do it this way :evil: ) when importers take the frogs "when they're easier to get" and when "its quantity over quality" so they get more MONEY. And its a hard job for the collector anyway who gets paid very little...so why would he/she care about the treatment of the poor animals? Most of these countries are third world and they'll take about what they can get.

If it boils down to it, it is the enthusiast who buys WC that ultimately causes all of this, because the enthusiast wants animals, and will only pay so much for them. The enthusiast normally does not want to risk it him/herself and pay the huge cost to go to the country and get it him/herself...which should probably be only left up for those planning a commercial business project (or just a very serious, dedicated hobbyist) and that will definitely captive breed them....so there WON'T be anymore WC for a long time. 

Unfortunately, which leads back to your point Ed, what's less popular nobody has incentive to breed. With too much array, there probably would be more incentive to recollect them and rummage the populatons. If people start wanting them.  

But if you really care enough about the animals, shouldn't only the serious hobbyists themselves take them back, not somebody paid to get them? *Potentially there'd be much less problems of the animals being maltreated and then there wouldn't have to be as many taken. This really should apply to WC animals in general unless its a researcher or zoo.


My two cents.


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