# How would you setup a combined snake/frog enclosure?



## rudukai13

Seen a few threads on the site a while ago about keeping an arboreal snake in the same enclosure as darts and was wanting to start a discussion on the topic. First and foremost, let me clarify - I understand mixing any two animals in one enclosure is either a) frowned upon, or b) something that should only be attempted by someone with vast experience with both species going into the enclosure. I have no plans to do anything like this any time soon, but it is certainly something that interests me perhaps for a future project. So let's get the discussion started with a few questions:

- Have you ever considered attempting this type of enclosure?

- What considerations would need to be made in constructing the habitat to be successful?

- Which species of snake would you consider to lend itself to this type of enclosure? Which species of dart?


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## sktdvs

my suggestion would be...dont.

search the beginner and viviarium section...youll see others and the responses they have gotten just this week alone.


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## dendrothusiast

If you must do it, make sure you got a huuuuge enclosure. emerald tree boas and another one I forget which are used commonly housed with frogs and lizards because they only strie at warm blooded prey. I have two friends who keep their baby and juvenile emeralds with darts and lizards in their show tanks until they're purchased, traded, or outgrow it.

Personally I always though if I was a frog. $%@ My roomate is gonna eat me! So I would think theyd be frightened but they seem fine. Ive seen a rainbow tree lizard bask on one without being eaten. But I would still not do it due to size requirements. I myself would never house any snake with other animals because I don't like feeding snakes mice.


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## ChrisK

Besides it just being an all around bad idea unless you were an expert with years of experience with both species, a consideration would be the type of food you would feed the snake - you can't be putting mice or rats etc in with darts


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## rudukai13

I believe most snakes are fed pre-killed or frozen and thawed rodents anyway, no concern about the frogs coming into contact with a live rat or mouse...


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## ChrisK

rudukai13 said:


> I believe most snakes are fed pre-killed or frozen and thawed rodents anyway, no concern about the frogs coming into contact with a live rat or mouse...


OK - how about a snake coming in contact with a frog?

EDIT - I'm asking because I know how snakes move, especially when going after food, how their skin is textured if a frog happens to get in its way, etc,....... basically, what would be the benefit to both animals of housing them together?


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## rudukai13

There isn't necessarily a benifit but there also isn't necessarily a detrimant to either animal. It's been done successfully by several of the more respected members here, so this certainly isn't something that hasn't been done before. I was more interested in hearing from those who have had personal success with this type of setup and what they've learned about how to go about it.


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## ChrisK

I guess my mentality is more that there's a definitely possible serious detriment, and no possible benefit for either species. Different strokes.


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## rudukai13

Obviously there's a risk, that's the point of why I posted this thread though - others have figured out a way to negate or greatly reduce the risk, what I'm asking is how they did it.


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## blaster40

Darts are awfully expensive snake food ! I've owned many snakes, Don't believe they will strike only warm blooded creatures. I would not combine the two .


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## rudukai13

Good for you. There are those who have done it though. I'd like to here their opinions.


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## zBrinks

I know of several zoos that have successfully housed Emerald Tree Boas with various frogs for years. I'd recommend reviewing this thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


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## Ed

Thanks Zach,

That is exactly what I was going to link it to... 

One of the things that continually surprises me is the arguments about "no known positive benefits" with respect to multispecies enclosures are this ignores the general use of a number of things that have no known benefit to the frogs.. for example
1) moss versus leaf litter for example 
2) silicones that contain organotins (see arguments here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html )

There is a surprising double standard when using this argument for this topic..... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Roadrunner

What about waste/ammonia buildup in the water from such a large and small animal? No matter what your working w/, as the # or mass of inhabitants increases, so does the wasteload leading to much more cleanings for the enclosure. 4X as many animals means 4x as many cleanings to keep it healthy. And w/ animals such as snakes and frogs there are different levels of waste they can handle in their space according to how they get their water and the permeability/sensitivity of their skin.


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## davidadelp

From what I have heard emerald tree boas prefer live food and if you have the money to support it they prey mostly on birds and small rodents that live in or are constantly in the trees. So I wouldnt think mixing live prey with frogs would be advisable. Granted I think itd be cool because I live tree boas but it may not be the safest plan


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## rudukai13

davidadelp said:


> From what I have heard emerald tree boas prefer live food and if you have the money to support it they prey mostly on birds and small rodents that live in or are constantly in the trees. So I wouldnt think mixing live prey with frogs would be advisable. Granted I think itd be cool because I live tree boas but it may not be the safest plan


Go try a quick search on youtube of ETB feedings and count how many live prey items are offered in the videos you view. I'm fairly certain it will be surprisingly few. And I don't believe I ever specified any specific species, let alone an Emerald tree boa. In fact part of my question was to ask those who have done this before what species of snake they would suggest.


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## Ed

davidadelp said:


> From what I have heard emerald tree boas prefer live food and if you have the money to support it they prey mostly on birds and small rodents that live in or are constantly in the trees. So I wouldnt think mixing live prey with frogs would be advisable. Granted I think itd be cool because I live tree boas but it may not be the safest plan


Wild caught emeralds often do initally prefer birds but long term captives and captive bred animals do just fine on frozen thawed animals offered off of tweezers. The frozen thawed prey can be offered warmed up off of tweezers to stimulate a stronger feeding response. 
In reality there are very few snakes in hobbbyist collections that have to be fed live prey (some sight hunters like Oxybelis or Ahaetella are potential exceptions)... 

With respect to waste production, this is really not a problem in a flow through system or a system that is heavily filtered. People often overlook the fact that an aerobic moist substrate has an ability to process nitrogenous waste that is many fold more efficient than a filtered aquatic system. A rain or heavy misting will push the nitrogenous waste down into the substrate for micobial processing. 

One cannot also make an assumption that it is going to require x number of times more cleaning as this fails to take into account, not only the feeding schedule fo the snakes but the frequency at which it passes urates and fecal materials. This is not a daily occurance and often may not even be a weekly occurance. This infrequent passing of waste products also allows for spot cleaning as needed. 

As with many other things, it all boils down to how the enclosure is set up and maintained. 

Ed


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## rudukai13

Ed said:


> Wild caught emeralds often do initally prefer birds but long term captives and captive bred animals do just fine on frozen thawed animals offered off of tweezers. The frozen thawed prey can be offered warmed up off of tweezers to stimulate a stronger feeding response.
> In reality there are very few snakes in hobbbyist collections that have to be fed live prey (some sight hunters like Oxybelis or Ahaetella are potential exceptions)...
> 
> With respect to waste production, this is really not a problem in a flow through system or a system that is heavily filtered. People often overlook the fact that an aerobic moist substrate has an ability to process nitrogenous waste that is many fold more efficient than a filtered aquatic system. A rain or heavy misting will push the nitrogenous waste down into the substrate for micobial processing.
> 
> One cannot also make an assumption that it is going to require x number of times more cleaning as this fails to take into account, not only the feeding schedule fo the snakes but the frequency at which it passes urates and fecal materials. This is not a daily occurance and often may not even be a weekly occurance. This infrequent passing of waste products also allows for spot cleaning as needed.
> 
> As with many other things, it all boils down to how the enclosure is set up and maintained.
> 
> Ed


Ed, can you describe a couple of the enclosures that you've had personal experience setting up in this manner? What snake species did you mix with what frog species? What specifically did you take into consideration? What, if any, combination could you recommend to a hobbyist that was interested in creating this type of enclosure themself (of course after becoming extremely experienced with both species of animals that will be kept together).


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## Roadrunner

considering an etb shits bigger than a frog I'd personally see it as a problem as I'd not want my frog hopping on etb shit. Also the retf in a water substrate would require lots more water changes if there is no substrate. As most people who want multi species enclosures want the most for the least money, I doubt they'd put in a fliterable system, and even if they did there is still more waste w/ more animals. And I'd think springs feeding on shit would be less nutritious and more toxic as feeders wouldn't they?


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> considering an etb shits bigger than a frog I'd personally see it as a problem as I'd not want my frog hopping on etb shit. Also the retf in a water substrate would require lots more water changes if there is no substrate. As most people who want multi species enclosures want the most for the least money, I doubt they'd put in a fliterable system, and even if they did there is still more waste w/ more animals. And I'd think springs feeding on shit would be less nutritious and more toxic as feeders wouldn't they?


AAron,

How much experience do you have working with multispecies enclosures such as this one? 

Have you set up a system with an aquatic water area and done water tests on a daily basis as I have, at work I had more ten years worth of water quality data saved up. 

On what basis are you assuming that springtails or isopods feeding on snake fecal material are going to be toxic while those feeding on frog fecal material are not going to be toxic? Do you believe that springtails are able to consume a greater proportion of snake fecal material as opposed to frog fecal material? Why wouldn't ammonia be toxic to the springtails (and this is assuming that springtails consume ammonia as opposed to the microbial fauna in/feeding on the fecal material)... Do you have any proof that springtails consume ammonia? 

Ed


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## Ed

rudukai13 said:


> Ed, can you describe a couple of the enclosures that you've had personal experience setting up in this manner? What snake species did you mix with what frog species? What specifically did you take into consideration? What, if any, combination could you recommend to a hobbyist that was interested in creating this type of enclosure themself (of course after becoming extremely experienced with both species of animals that will be kept together).


I normally don't recommend snakes in planted enclosures as they tend to trash the plants really badly. In an enclosed space, they do a lot of damage and the plants are often unable to recover from those sorts of damage requiring continually replacement. 

You have research up the snake and look at the risk of predation based on diet and niche needs, then you have to be able to provide the correct niches (as outlined in the thread linked by Zach). 

Ed


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## fleshfrombone

Ed is it safe to assume that why there's been so much success keeping very small arboreal snakes with larger terrestrial frogs in regards to planted enclosures? Or do even eyelash vipers tear up plants?


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## Roadrunner

Do you have any proof they don't?

What does your data say about 20 retf in an unfiltered pond system? How does that compare to 2 in the same area? I'd assume w/ no microorgamisms to break down the nitrogen that it would create a toxic soup much faster, as what I've seen from trying to breed them. No written data, just observations. 

Just asking questions, no need to get riled. Notice I stated nothing and said, I'd imagine That means I'm asking not stating. Relax, breathe.

And how do I know your data isn't flawed? Is it peer reviewed? Did you have a control and calibrate your tests?



Ed said:


> AAron,
> 
> How much experience do you have working with multispecies enclosures such as this one?
> 
> Have you set up a system with an aquatic water area and done water tests on a daily basis as I have, at work I had more ten years worth of water quality data saved up.
> 
> On what basis are you assuming that springtails or isopods feeding on snake fecal material are going to be toxic while those feeding on frog fecal material are not going to be toxic? Do you believe that springtails are able to consume a greater proportion of snake fecal material as opposed to frog fecal material? Why wouldn't ammonia be toxic to the springtails (and this is assuming that springtails consume ammonia as opposed to the microbial fauna in/feeding on the fecal material)... Do you have any proof that springtails consume ammonia?
> 
> Ed


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## Ed

Actually, ammonia excretion via fecal material is not the normal pathway (other than that found in residual undigested protiens and whole microbial fauna in the fecal material) in either taxa. Snakes may have some urate material passed (but this is a stabilized as uric acid) woth the fecal material and most anurans pass it via urine (and possibly skin in some species). So there is no indication that springtails are going to be toxic from either source. Also there isn't any indication (unless you can provide one) that the springtails are not feeding on the microbes or that the routine spot removal of any fecal materials would not remove the problem. 
In addition, a flow through system or a heavily filtered area (which is my required specfication from the start) will also remove ammonia. 

You are assuming worst case scenarios and there hasn't been any indication that the OP is looking at attempting to set up a worse case scenario set up. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner

I still think it's pertinent info since most people only look at whats stated and don't ever consider worst case scenerio and it usually ends up there.
In my case the water wasn't filtered, only moved, and it got shitty real quick and required daily changes. Just because my material is anecdotal doesn't mean it doesn't have merit. If that was the case your water study would only have merit to you also.


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## kinison

rudukai13 said:


> I believe most snakes are fed pre-killed or frozen and thawed rodents anyway, no concern about the frogs coming into contact with a live rat or mouse...


That is if you can get them to eat frozen. I have many snakes. Some of which that will not touch frozen. It must be alive. I have others that use to eat frozen just fine and would stop. Then you must switch to live. It is a snakes instinct to eat live and eventually will. I have a couple species known as Western Hognose and in the wild their diet consist of mostly frogs. So to think that a snake will not eat your frog eventually is really pushing the limits in my experience. Many snakes are known to eat each other, and will in captivity given the right circumstance or breed. I get the idea, and second the fact that it could be a pretty cool setup for a display tank. However, the risk involved is at your discretion. I feel you will have to be very distinct on what species of frog and snake that will occupy the tank and be very familiar with housing these two animals separately before attempting to combine them.


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## Ed

kinison said:


> That is if you can get them to eat frozen. I have many snakes. Some of which that will not touch frozen. It must be alive. I have others that use to eat frozen just fine and would stop. Then you must switch to live. It is a snakes instinct to eat live and eventually will. I have a couple species known as Western Hognose and in the wild their diet consist of mostly frogs. So to think that a snake will not eat your frog eventually is really pushing the limits in my experience. Many snakes are known to eat each other, and will in captivity given the right circumstance or breed. I get the idea, and second the fact that it could be a pretty cool setup for a display tank. However, the risk involved is at your discretion. I feel you will have to be very distinct on what species of frog and snake that will occupy the tank and be very familiar with housing these two animals separately before attempting to combine them.


I've been working with snakes both as a Keeper and privately for more than 30 years and I can state that this is in no way supported by experience or the literature. Even species that are "prey" specific can be switched over to frozen thawed rodents if time and effort are put to the task. It may take a variable period (in some cases a couple of years) but it can be done. I've personally done it with a number of species ranging from those in the Heterodon genus (several species) to both captive bred and wild caught king cobras, to Eastern Coral snakes to grey banded kingsnakes to species in the genus Nerodia... 

Ed


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## Jellyman

frogfarm said:


> considering an etb shits bigger than a frog I'd personally see it as a problem as I'd not want my frog hopping on etb shit. Also the retf in a water substrate would require lots more water changes if there is no substrate. As most people who want multi species enclosures want the most for the least money, I doubt they'd put in a fliterable system, and even if they did there is still more waste w/ more animals. And I'd think springs feeding on shit would be less nutritious and more toxic as feeders wouldn't they?


This is absolutely biased opinion. Most people that keep mixed enclosures typically spend much more time and money then the simply single species enclosures most hobbiest throw together over the weekend.


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## Boondoggle

Jellyman said:


> This is absolutely biased opinion. Most people that keep mixed enclosures typically spend much more time and money then the simply single species enclosures most hobbiest throw together over the weekend.


Just to be clear, when you say "This is absolutely biased opinion", are you referring to the statement you quoted above, or the statement that you made directly afterward? Since they were both pretty broad, unquantifiable statements, I'm not sure which way you are going on that.


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## rudukai13

Wow. Wasn't aware I'd be stirring up such a large shit storm by starting this thread...


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## Jellyman

rudukai13 said:


> Wow. Wasn't aware I'd be stirring up such a large shit storm by starting this thread...


Unfortunately you will find that those with no experience with mixed enclosures always seem to have the most to say. Those that do mix simply do not wish to argue with those that have no experience but think they have all the answers.


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## Baltimore Bryan

Jellyman said:


> This is absolutely biased opinion. Most people that keep mixed enclosures typically spend much more time and money then the simply single species enclosures most hobbiest throw together over the weekend.


I think there are two main kinds of people who set up mixed species tanks: people who really don't care, ask things like "can a dart and a green tree frog go in a 20 gallon with an Eastern newt?", and and do basically just want to keep as much as they can in one tank because they do not want to spend money on healthy animals or additional tanks since they don't see why mixing is bad or ignore opinions from experienced people; then there are those that do actually spend more time/ effort than needed for a single species enclosure to mix species, such as zoo/aquarium displays- these still may be unsuccessful, though. I don't know what kind of people set up the majority of mixed tanks, but I would guess that is the former group. Unfortunately, there are many mixed tanks that probably fail miserably but "the pet store said they would get along great," so they never did real research. Unfortunately, considering how many beginner mixing questions we get here, and how many darts are sold in pet stores/ Kingsnake, I would think most mixed tanks are those that do not take more time and money than other tanks. 
And by the way, I don't think you meant this in a derogatory way, but you can easily "throw together a tank over the weekend" that is very functional and well suited for the animals, or spend lots of time/ money into an elaborate single species tank as well.
Bryan


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## Jellyman

Boondoggle said:


> Just to be clear, when you say "This is absolutely biased opinion", are you referring to the statement you quoted above, or the statement that you made directly afterward? Since they were both pretty broad, unquantifiable statements, I'm not sure which way you are going on that.


The statement that people who mix do so because they lack the funds or want the most for the least amount spent is absolutely biased. Certainly there are a handful that mix because they lack the funds and/or take short cuts. These are typically the failures people like to point out. I personally have $3,000+ invested in my setup that contains 16 frogs and another setup that cost me roughly $1200 for 5 frogs. I'm sure I am on the high end handful but aqs a rule all the setups that I have seen and/or helped setup for mixed setups were significantly more complex, more expensive, and consumed much more then a few hours on a weekend to setup. Instead of debating over the extremes, would it not be better and more effective to speak of what would be realistic. You will always have the guy that packs 10 frogs in a 20 gallon and another guy that puts a $20,000 addition onto his house for his pair of leucs.


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## Boondoggle

Jellyman said:


> The statement that people who mix do so because they lack the funds or want the most for the least amount spent is absolutely biased. Certainly there are a handful that mix because they lack the funds and/or take short cuts. These are typically the failures people like to point out. I personally have $3,000+ invested in my setup that contains 16 frogs and another setup that cost me roughly $1200 for 5 frogs. I'm sure I am on the high end handful but aqs a rule all the setups that I have seen and/or helped setup for mixed setups were significantly more complex, more expensive, and consumed much more then a few hours on a weekend to setup. Instead of debating over the extremes, would it not be better and more effective to speak of what would be realistic. You will always have the guy that packs 10 frogs in a 20 gallon and another guy that puts a $20,000 addition onto his house for his pair of leucs.


I agree with what you said here. My only point is that it's pretty impossible (or at least biased) for either side of this debate to claim MOST "mixers" are responsible or irresponsible in their efforts. Certainly if an estimation was made based on posts and questions I've read here, I would assume most were irresponsible, but hell, I don't know. 

That being said, I would love to see a $3000 frog setup, mixed or not.


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## Boondoggle

rudukai13 said:


> Wow. Wasn't aware I'd be stirring up such a large shit storm by starting this thread...


There used to be a couple heated conversations about this a week (that was before the great religious debate of 2010 that shall not be mentioned). Maybe everybody has their energy back and is ready to debate again. It pretty much always goes the same so check the search function on mixing if you want to see the ugly arguments quickly, or stick in this thread if you want to see it unfold in real time.

I don't personally mix species because I feel I can provide a safer/healthier environment by sticking to one type of animal per enclosure. Can a mixed species tank be successfully done? Apparently so...Zoos do it. Of course they have teams of professionals with training and experience. Can you do what they do? Maybe so, Maybe not. Me, I say "why bother?". I enjoy my single species tanks as much as I would enjoy them all lumped together. Others apparently disagree. 

As per your original question, I have a good amount of experience with PDF, much more with snakes, and if I was going to build a mixed specie tank I wouldn't opt for a PDF/tree snake combo. Snakes really do a number on planted tanks (some worse than others). Cleaning snake poop out of a planted viv doesn't sound like any fun to me (fouling water aside). Feeding, while not impossible, wont always go well. Even a snake taking frozen/thawed rodents doesn't always eat it right away (do you remove it to feed it, leave the dead rat pup in the tank, or decide to just try again the next week?). And I don't care if the snake sees PDF's as a food source or not, the danger of a strike is always there. A 3 foot snake doesn't see me as a food source either, but I have been hit with plenty of feeding response bites. Snakes psychology is not all that complex and if they are in "feed mode" they don't really reason very well.


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## dendrothusiast

I thought this thread would get bigger today. 

Rudikai I in no way feel you should be mixing these totally different animals together. In no way have you stated that you have alot of experience with both animals. Im not trying to be a jerk here and call you out but I'm getting the feeling your not heeding the advice offered. Your asking can a frog be put with an ETB on a frog forum. Of course everyone's gonna tell you to stay away from it. And whats the sureness that your ETB will eat frozen feeders? I said my friends keep them with darts. But I can assure you they're huuge custom enclosres I personally made for them. Once theyre big they usually end up in their own "non mixed" enclosure. If you got something really tall say 5' high and 8' long minumum then I'de say go for it. 

there's too many risks though due to feces alone.


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## rudukai13

Boondoggle, thank you for finally contributing to my original question! Theoretically, if you were to opt for a mixed species tank with a tree snake, what species of snake would you use and what would you mix with it?

Dendrothusiast, if you go back and read my posts I am not the one who brings up an ETB as a potential species for a mixed enclosure. In fact part of my original question was to provide several suggestions for different species of snake that may work for this type of enclosure. At some point someone used an ETB as an example in their explanation and this species was picked up and focused on in further discussion. I also have no plans of creating a mixed enclosure any time soon for the exact reason that you believe I shouldn't. I don't have enough experience with any species that would be involved. This is something, however, that I would like to do _eventually_, and I simply posted this thread as a way for me to get an idea of which species I should start working with in order to get enough experience to create a mixed enclosure _eventually_.


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## rcteem

My personal thought is if you have to ask info on what species can you mix, how big the viv needs to be, and all the info needed to make it be successful...your not ready!!! You may have experience with frogs and reptiles but if you dont have experience or the needed info to properly house the species you wish to keep, you have no business trying. I have kept tons of different herps and fish. I would love to do a mix tank someday but I am still researching what can and cant be done and now probably will never do one...even in my 450 gallon tank that will be plenty big. 

I hope you see where Im coming from as we see people like you post these questions every week or so it seems. I could be wrong but it seems like you have not done the research, or not enough, yourself. For example if you posted I have been keeping blank dart frog for three years now and also have been working with blank snake for two years and was thinking of putting them in a 265 gallon custom tank...The reason why I picked these species is because for one the are found almost in the same geographical area and second because I know the snake eats blank and inhabitats this area of the viv while the frog inhabits this area of the tank should be fine since its different habitats in the viv....etc, I think you would get a similar response without so many people attacking you cause you proved your not one of these guys trying to get the most use out of your tank so to speak.

Please dont take this post the wrong way but try to view this thread through our eyes.


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## dendrothusiast

rudukai13 said:


> Theoretically, if you were to opt for a mixed species tank with a tree snake, what species of snake would you use and what would you mix with it?
> 
> Dendrothusiast, if you go back and read my posts I am not the one who brings up an ETB as a potential species for a mixed enclosure. [/I].


last time i checked an emeral tree boa is a tree snake. That's cool then if your not planning on anything soon. Well you know it's gonna take a big tank so at least your not fighting it - it's just alot of people ask everyday what they can mix with their frogs. The only mixing i've ever done before was mixing darts with pygmy chameleons at one time with fish, then with day geckos at another. Of course a good sized enclosure for all of them. Whatever you come across hopefully it'll be benificial but I don't think I've ever seen or heard of any "small" sized aboreal snakes successfully mixed with darts.


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## rudukai13

rcteem said:


> My personal thought is if you have to ask info on what species can you mix, how big the viv needs to be, and all the info needed to make it be successful...your not ready!!! You may have experience with frogs and reptiles but if you dont have experience or the needed info to properly house the species you wish to keep, you have no business trying. I have kept tons of different herps and fish. I would love to do a mix tank someday but I am still researching what can and cant be done and now probably will never do one...even in my 450 gallon tank that will be plenty big.
> 
> I hope you see where Im coming from as we see people like you post these questions every week or so it seems. I could be wrong but it seems like you have not done the research, or not enough, yourself. For example if you posted I have been keeping blank dart frog for three years now and also have been working with blank snake for two years and was thinking of putting them in a 265 gallon custom tank...The reason why I picked these species is because for one the are found almost in the same geographical area and second because I know the snake eats blank and inhabitats this area of the viv while the frog inhabits this area of the tank should be fine since its different habitats in the viv....etc, I think you would get a similar response without so many people attacking you cause you proved your not one of these guys trying to get the most use out of your tank so to speak.
> 
> Please dont take this post the wrong way but try to view this thread through our eyes.


*I know I'm not ready. I'm asking what species have worked in the past so that I can work with those species seperately and get the experience necessary to BE ready.*

I understand that there is one person or another who posts a "I want to mix" thread about once a week but please understand, I am not trying to be that guy. As I stated above, I'm simply asking for those who have successfully mixed in the past to explain which species they mixed and how they did it so I can get ideas of what species I need to start working with.


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## dendrothusiast

hey rudikai you may be in luck. There IS a small species of tree snake that you can succesfully mix with small frogs. I'm looking for the thread right now so as soon as i find it i'll send it your way. It's from another viv builder who's a very respected member of the hobby so if he can do it I suppose the pros and cons have been worked out that benefits both animals.


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## dendrothusiast

look up "mixed species tank" by Ben E. It's one thread I came across that features an amazon tree boa. They get up to 6 feetish but they're thin and apparently fecal mater isn't as bad compared to an emerald according to my friend. He has them mixed with a couple of other species of darts and as far as he claims they seem to be doing just fine.

As for the small snake it may be on another forum but i'll let you know what I find if i ever come across it by luck again.


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## rudukai13

Thank you, that's the information I was looking for!


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## SmackoftheGods

rudukai13 said:


> Wow. Wasn't aware I'd be stirring up such a large shit storm by starting this thread...


Really? I thought you said you'd read mixing threads on this site before.


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## SmackoftheGods

dendrothusiast said:


> so if he can do it I suppose the pros and cons have been worked out that benefits both animals.


Just because an experienced individual has found a way to minimize the risk of keeping a large snake and dart frogs together hardly means that person has developed a system such that cohabitation of those species is mutually beneficial.


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## ChrisK

Exactly what I was saying, fill in this blank - "I want to create a mixed tank because it will benefit both species' well-being by _____ ".


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## dendrothusiast

SmackoftheGods said:


> Just because an experienced individual has found a way to minimize the risk of keeping a large snake and dart frogs together hardly means that person has developed a system such that cohabitation of those species is mutually beneficial.


look man, I spent most of my teen years volunteering at a reptile shop and not once did we ever mix frogs with snakes becuase it was just bad ju ju in our heads. But I'm gonna vouche for ben when i say he worked the pros and cons. He's done alot of exhibits for several kinds of frogs and reptiles for museums and other institutes and he doesn't mess around especially when he mixes them in "display" tanks. Note I say display and not breeding. Do a search of his name and check out his threads to get an idea of the animals he's worked with. 

I for sure can't say if an amazon tree boa works with frogs because I've never done it nor will I ever because personally - I can't stand snakes. Also to further food for your thought I did some digging after my friend mentioned that the REPTILES magazine did an article a few years back on keeping both amazon and emerald tree boas with cold blooded animals. So if they stand by it and willing to put their reputation on the line it must mean something. Obviously if one were gonna put them together I'm sure one realized to do something like this succesfully requires a huge space. Especially if your ready to clean up snake poo and deal with smashed plants all the time.


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## ChrisK

dendrothusiast said:


> Also to further food for your thought I did some digging after my friend mentioned that the REPTILES magazine did an article a few years back on keeping both amazon and emerald tree boas with cold blooded animals. So if they stand by it and willing to put their reputation on the line it must mean something. Obviously if one were gonna put them together I'm sure one realized to do something like this succesfully requires a huge space. Especially if your ready to clean up snake poo and deal with smashed plants all the time.


I for one wouldn't trust REPTILES magazine to tell me to mix dart frogs with anything, unless the article was written by a well respected dart frog keeper/breeder. In which case I would probably already know the info............


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## rudukai13

Why does there have to be a benifit to both species in order to justify it as long as there isn't a detrimant? If neither animal is worse off living together than it would be living alone, why does it need to be further defended?


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## zBrinks

ChrisK said:


> I for one wouldn't trust REPTILES magazine to tell me to mix dart frogs with anything, unless the article was written by a well respected dart frog keeper/breeder. In which case I would probably already know the info............


 I believe the article was written by Rex Lee Searcey - I'd respect that.


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## Roadrunner

They definitely show variation by individual and some never switch. I have known MANY people who've tried to get king cobras, etb's etc. to take rats and mice and I've heard maybe 1/10 will switch w/out dieing first unless force fed and then some still die before ever switching. Unfortunately many hobbyists don't write papers.

No comment on the data of water changes? Was it published?




Ed said:


> I've been working with snakes both as a Keeper and privately for more than 30 years and I can state that this is in no way supported by experience or the literature. Even species that are "prey" specific can be switched over to frozen thawed rodents if time and effort are put to the task. It may take a variable period (in some cases a couple of years) but it can be done. I've personally done it with a number of species ranging from those in the Heterodon genus (several species) to both captive bred and wild caught king cobras, to Eastern Coral snakes to grey banded kingsnakes to species in the genus Nerodia...
> 
> Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

rudukai13 said:


> Boondoggle, thank you for finally contributing to my original question! Theoretically, if you were to opt for a mixed species tank with a tree snake, what species of snake would you use and what would you mix with it?


Well first off I just wouldn't. Also, take what I say with a grain of salt because I don't have ANY experience in mixed enclosures.

In a "if I had a gun to my head" situation, I guess I would want a very large tank to start with. I'd choose animals from similar parts of the world so as to minimize any critical pathogen transfer. I would try to split the tank into two "biotopes", one that the frog never felt a need to leave and one that the snake never felt a need to leave, so as to minimize meetings between the species. I would especially try to provide each it's own watering spot. I guess we can assume a tree snake/terrestrial frog combo would come closest to that. I would try to set up some sort of dry flat area under the snakes "perching area" to facilitate easier fecal clean up, maybe even elevate it to keep the frogs out of it. Snake poo will not benignly melt into the substrate like frog feces. Obviously I would try to pick a snake that didn't eat frogs as it's preferred diet. I think my best bet would also be to pick one of those shyer frogs that spend most of its time hiding. The downside of that is that you won't be able to monitor it for subtle signs of stress because you won't see it very often, but hopefully neither will the snake. Also, it wouldn't hurt if one was nocturnal and the other diurnal. Finally, I would limit my plant choices to very hardy ones that can take a bit of a thrashing for when the snake starts roaming a bit.

Then I would stand back and look at my giant tank full of Hoya, occasionally reattaching the plants torn down, hope that the snake stays put and only poops once this week, hoping that I'm there to clean it up pretty quickly when it does, hoping for a glimpse of my shy frogs, wondering if they are still in there...and all the while wishing I had just used the space for 4-6 smaller tanks.

I know it can be done. As far as that goes, though, I've seen in our local pet store a large rat that was housed with a Boa. When the rat was thrown in there as feed, for some reason the snake didn't see it that way. The rat grew and, oddly, didn't bite on the snake. The owners continued to feed rats and the snake only ate the new ones. On a few occasions I saw the rat laying/walking on the boa, and it never reacted. They were together for about a year. Even though I saw that firsthand, I still wouldn't recommend housing rats and boas together.

Anyway, you asked, so that's my opinion.


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> They definitely show variation by individual and some never switch. I have known MANY people who've tried to get king cobras, etb's etc. to take rats and mice and I've heard maybe 1/10 will switch w/out dieing first unless force fed and then some still die before ever switching. Unfortunately many hobbyists don't write papers.
> 
> No comment on the data of water changes? Was it published?


 
The water quality data is logged in the files at work. It is recorded in the husbandry records, so can be published as it was collected with a standard procedure as well as a standardized time. As I am out on disability I don't have free access to it at this time, If choose, you can submit a research request form to the Zoo and see if they will approve your reasoning for wanting it. Or someone else there may finish it up and publish it. 
It is logged data.. whether or not it gets used is something else.. 

For records in the literature on switching kings, I suggest starting with the information published by Kauffield in the Keeper and the Kept. The reason most of the attempts fail is because people take stressed out snakes and attempt to force them to eat. The problems are more a cause of maladaption syndrome than the snakes won't switch over. This is not an uncommon problem with imported animals. With respect to baby kings, if one bothers to contact the SSP coordinator on rearing recommendations, force feeding is not recommended at all unless the snakes will stress out and die. However once they are feeding, they can be readily switched over. This is also the recommendations for new imports. Once they are settled in and adapted to the captive routine, they eat just fine. 
A lot of the bad information on switching kings has come from purchasing imports that were badly injured during capture (usually with crushed ribs from being noosed and dragged) and then starved before shipping. This has been exacerbated by some of the theories that have been floating around out in the pet sector that these snakes (and this is often repeated for many taxa ranging from hognose snakes to horned frogs) cannot digest mammaliam protiens and/or fats well.. These theories have no supporting evidence (you can search the literature up if you want.. it is there if one chooses to look). 
There used to be a guy in the late 1980s and early 1990s who would get entire clutches of kraits on pinkies before selling them to Crutchfield who would sell them on his lists... It is not as subjective as you and many other people want to make it out as it all depends on how much a person is willing to work with the animals and the time they are willing to spend.


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## kinison

Ed said:


> I've been working with snakes both as a Keeper and privately for more than 30 years and I can state that this is in no way supported by experience or the literature. Even species that are "prey" specific can be switched over to frozen thawed rodents if time and effort are put to the task. It may take a variable period (in some cases a couple of years) but it can be done. I've personally done it with a number of species ranging from those in the Heterodon genus (several species) to both captive bred and wild caught king cobras, to Eastern Coral snakes to grey banded kingsnakes to species in the genus Nerodia...
> 
> Ed


Well that is just dandy if I must say. But just because you get the snake to eat a thawed piece of meat does not stop him from attacking something alive again. This was my point but thanks for your input about _Ed's Journey Around The World Feeding Frozen Mice_. It was very intriguing.


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## Ed

kinison said:


> Well that is just dandy if I must say. But just because you get the snake to eat a thawed piece of meat does not stop him from attacking something alive again. This was my point but thanks for your input about _Ed's Journey Around The World Feeding Frozen Mice_. It was very intriguing.


If you bothered to really read what I wrote instead of getting sarcastic, you would have noted that no-where in my posts did I indicate that once a snake is on frozen-thawed would it not take live prey. I consistently indicated that your dogmatic statements were not only unsupported by a long and experienced career both professionally and privately but were unsupported by published observations that there is a requirement for live prey in a vast majority of species. These citations range from the publications of Karl Kauffield to those in the scientific literature such as those reports of wild snakes feeding on carrion.... 
See for example the abstracts and articles located at the followign addresses 

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Carrion seeking in brown tree snakes: Importance of olfactory and visual cues - Shivik - 1998 - Journal of Experimental Zoology - Wiley Online Library

or even this review of the studies on wild snakes BioOne Online Journals - SCAVENGING BY SNAKES: AN EXAMINATION OF THE LITERATURE

So you have decided to focus on feeding response as a problem.. this depends on the behavior and the fixation of the snake on the triggers. See again, the descriptions of the behaviors by Kauffield... these are conditioned behaviors and while not well studied in snakes (I think there is a description in Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles) but they follow the typical pattern seen in other animals. The snakes can be conditioned to respond to a specific stimuli (other than opening the tank) such as a specific tapping on the side of the enclosure before the presentation of food. This controls when and how the feeding response is expressed...


----------



## Ed

SmackoftheGods said:


> is mutually beneficial.


 
Hi Jake,

This is not meant to single you out, I'm using this to reference the idea above.. 

There is often a lot of talk about whether or not it is beneficial to either species.. but we should be questioning the argument that it has to be beneficial and instead neutral is an acceptable standard. 

The reason I'm flagging this idea, is because we do a lot of things that may or may not be beneficial to the frogs yet those things get a pass or are accepted yet when it comes to multispecies enclosures, that phrase gets tossed in as if it should be a final determinent. 

Some of the things we do, that may be of questionable benefit yet are accepted by wide segments of hobby (not always the same segment)
this is not meant to be a list of everything but instead is a representative

1) use of silicones containing organotins
2) pulling and artifically rearing of tadpoles and froglets
3) lack of use of leaf litter/use of large amounts of moss
4) optimizing breeding conditions year round without a rest break simulating the wild conditions

Why is there a double standard on the idea of what is beneficial? 

Ed


----------



## Philsuma

Bear in mind that @ 90% of the users of this forum are new hobbyists.

1. _Can_ it be done?

2. Is it _truely_ harmful to either species?

3. Focus on how it _can_ be done, not how it cannot?


These questions above, are SECONDARY to:

1. How much general experience do you have with herps?

2. How much specific experience do you have with dart frogs?

3. How many species have you kept and for how long?

4. How much time and capital do you have immediately available for this project?


Playing devil's advocate or advancing expert level discussions and husbandry issues to a new or inexperienced hobbyist is not the way to go IMO.


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## Boondoggle

Ed said:


> ...this depends on the behavior and the fixation of the snake on the triggers. See again, the descriptions of the behaviors by Kauffield... these are conditioned behaviors and while not well studied in snakes (I think there is a description in Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles) but they follow the typical pattern seen in other animals. The snakes can be conditioned to respond to a specific stimuli (other than opening the tank) such as a specific tapping on the side of the enclosure before the presentation of food. This controls when and how the feeding response is expressed...


I have a quasi-serious personal theory about snake handling...snakes have 3 modes, feeding/hunting mode, defensive/aggressive mode, and passive mode (heretofore "hungry, cranky and ignore"). People that look like they are magically adept at handling snakes are just very good at recognizing the body language that indicates which mode the snake is in, and very good at shifting that snake into passive mode with conditioned and naturally existing cues. If I think about it, most of my snakes drop into light-heavy "hungry" mode when the cage door opens, and are conditioned to drop into "ignore" mode when they make contact with the snake hook.

My experiences agree with everything Ed said here, I just don't believe snake conditioning is quite as foolproof as this post makes it sound. "Movement" is a pretty deep-seated condition for response and even if a snake adheres to specific stimuli 99.9% of the time, that means 1 out of every 1000 contacts is going to result in a frog fatality (just a "for instance", not real stats).

Most people who keep snakes have had the experience of seeing an animal that is normally very calm completely lose it's s**t at one time or another for no discernible reason. I have an 8 foot boa that is super gentle and trustworthy. One day, though, I remember opening his cage and seeing a serious "cranky" response, and not being able to shift him out of it. I remember thinking "Wow, I guess I'm not cleaning your cage today". The next day he was back to himself. What happened? Was he in shed? Stomach-ache? Had he overheated himself on the hot spot? I have no idea, but I guarantee he would have hit anything I put in the cage, including the snake hook.

I would not be surprised to a see a snake/PDF combo work, maybe for a very long time...maybe indefinitely. But could you really say you would be surprised to wake up one morning and find that the frog had taken a "cranky" or "hungry" hit and was no more?

Just out of curiosity, Ed, what combo's have you seen?


----------



## Ed

Boondoggle said:


> I have a quasi-serious personal theory about snake handling...snakes have 3 modes, feeding/hunting mode, defensive/aggressive mode, and passive mode (heretofore "hungry, cranky and ignore"). People that look like they are magically adept at handling snakes are just very good at recognizing the body language that indicates which mode the snake is in, and very good at shifting that snake into passive mode with conditioned and naturally existing cues. If I think about it, most of my snakes drop into light-heavy "hungry" mode when the cage door opens, and are conditioned to drop into "ignore" mode when they make contact with the snake hook.
> 
> My experiences agree with everything Ed said here, I just don't believe snake conditioning is quite as foolproof as this post makes it sound. "Movement" is a pretty deep-seated condition for response and even if a snake adheres to specific stimuli 99.9% of the time, that means 1 out of every 1000 contacts is going to result in a frog fatality (just a "for instance", not real stats).
> 
> Most people who keep snakes have had the experience of seeing an animal that is normally very calm completely lose it's s**t at one time or another for no discernible reason. I have an 8 foot boa that is super gentle and trustworthy. One day, though, I remember opening his cage and seeing a serious "cranky" response, and not being able to shift him out of it. I remember thinking "Wow, I guess I'm not cleaning your cage today". The next day he was back to himself. What happened? Was he in shed? Stomach-ache? Had he overheated himself on the hot spot? I have no idea, but I guarantee he would have hit anything I put in the cage, including the snake hook.
> 
> I would not be surprised to a see a snake/PDF combo work, maybe for a very long time...maybe indefinitely. But could you really say you would be surprised to wake up one morning and find that the frog had taken a "cranky" or "hungry" hit and was no more?
> 
> Just out of curiosity, Ed, what combo's have you seen?


Adding a secondary tactile cue that is only used when not-feeding can also signficiantly help reduce those days when the snake is just odd. With some effort you can even adjust animals to only be fed from certain orientations. I worked with several Dumeril's boas that were totally handable and workable when accessed from the front cage door (to where you could just reach in and pick them up even if someone was feeding other snakes nearby) but if you accessed them from the back door, you were going to see some significantly feeding responses. This was done and reinforced by simply not feeding them from the one access point, and initially providing a secondary tactile cue (gently stroking the head of the snake) which I was able to drop once the snakes were habituated. I even had them to the point, where one would shift for feeding while one would station.. 
I was even able to acclimate the emeralds to the point where I could work around them without them even moving. (They would take exception to being bumped excessively but otherwise would just sleep through water changes, scrubbing the glass (I had to reach over, under and around them). amd trimming the one plant that surivived thier tender care...

Snake/frog combinations thatI can think of off the top of my head that were successful for at least 3 years or more before being taken down (for new exhibit or maintenance) 

Emeralds and red eye treefrogs, Typhlonectes natans
Emeralds and Red eye treefrogs and Pipa parva
Eyelash vipers and auratus
eyelash and Pipa parva
eyelash and Pipa pipa 
oak toads and rough green snakes
green anacondas and marine toads
Boa constrictor ssp and marine toads


----------



## Ed

Boondoggle said:


> I have a quasi-serious personal theory about snake handling...snakes have 3 modes, feeding/hunting mode, defensive/aggressive mode, and passive mode (heretofore "hungry, cranky and ignore"). People that look like they are magically adept at handling snakes are just very good at recognizing the body language that indicates which mode the snake is in, and very good at shifting that snake into passive mode with conditioned and naturally existing cues. If I think about it, most of my snakes drop into light-heavy "hungry" mode when the cage door opens, and are conditioned to drop into "ignore" mode when they make contact with the snake hook.
> 
> My experiences agree with everything Ed said here, I just don't believe snake conditioning is quite as foolproof as this post makes it sound. "Movement" is a pretty deep-seated condition for response and even if a snake adheres to specific stimuli 99.9% of the time, that means 1 out of every 1000 contacts is going to result in a frog fatality (just a "for instance", not real stats).
> 
> Most people who keep snakes have had the experience of seeing an animal that is normally very calm completely lose it's s**t at one time or another for no discernible reason. I have an 8 foot boa that is super gentle and trustworthy. One day, though, I remember opening his cage and seeing a serious "cranky" response, and not being able to shift him out of it. I remember thinking "Wow, I guess I'm not cleaning your cage today". The next day he was back to himself. What happened? Was he in shed? Stomach-ache? Had he overheated himself on the hot spot? I have no idea, but I guarantee he would have hit anything I put in the cage, including the snake hook.
> 
> I would not be surprised to a see a snake/PDF combo work, maybe for a very long time...maybe indefinitely. But could you really say you would be surprised to wake up one morning and find that the frog had taken a "cranky" or "hungry" hit and was no more?
> 
> Just out of curiosity, Ed, what combo's have you seen?


I wanted to point this out above.. the point you have to consider is once you opened the door, is the snake is going to go after things that do not originate as coming through the door. This is the part of conditioned response that people forget about.. It isn't normal for a snake to go flailing around attacking each and every movement n its enviroment once it recieves a food stimulus as this results in mouthfuls of things that are not good to eat... things that come through the door are a different item. 

I even remember about a similar application to fishing with artificial lures.. in spots that are heavily fished from the shore but lightly fished from the water, fish would ignore a presentation that originated from away from the shore approaching the shore but would hit a lure going from the shore outwards... 
Ed


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## ChrisK

zBrinks said:


> I believe the article was written by Rex Lee Searcey - I'd respect that.


I would be pretty surprised if it recommended hobbyists mix snakes with darts


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## kinison

Ed said:


> If you bothered to really read what I wrote instead of getting sarcastic, you would have noted that no-where in my posts did I indicate that once a snake is on frozen-thawed would it not take live prey. I consistently indicated that your dogmatic statements were not only unsupported by a long and experienced career both professionally and privately but were unsupported by published observations that there is a requirement for live prey in a vast majority of species. These citations range from the publications of Karl Kauffield to those in the scientific literature such as those reports of wild snakes feeding on carrion....
> See for example the abstracts and articles located at the followign addresses
> 
> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> 
> Carrion seeking in brown tree snakes: Importance of olfactory and visual cues - Shivik - 1998 - Journal of Experimental Zoology - Wiley Online Library
> 
> or even this review of the studies on wild snakes BioOne Online Journals - SCAVENGING BY SNAKES: AN EXAMINATION OF THE LITERATURE
> 
> So you have decided to focus on feeding response as a problem.. this depends on the behavior and the fixation of the snake on the triggers. See again, the descriptions of the behaviors by Kauffield... these are conditioned behaviors and while not well studied in snakes (I think there is a description in Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles) but they follow the typical pattern seen in other animals. The snakes can be conditioned to respond to a specific stimuli (other than opening the tank) such as a specific tapping on the side of the enclosure before the presentation of food. This controls when and how the feeding response is expressed...


lol... I couldn't finish reading it all. Your just too much for most of us... most of the time. All hail Ed. Your a smart guy, you really are. But your one of those people that always have the right answer and to shoot down other peoples opinions with your "facts" can have a rather rude vibe at times. I apologize for our differences on a simple fact. I think the end result of this topic is obvious.


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## dendrothusiast

ChrisK said:


> I would be pretty surprised if it recommended hobbyists mix snakes with darts


the man does have them with the more common panamanians darts with little tree lizards. I'm looking at the article right now on my lap and the guy is an all around keeper and it also states that he's done it several times with built experience over-time. If he was just curious I can understand but he said he won't do it until he feels he's ready which will be quite some time. 

I'm not a snake keeper but I know pro snake keepers. Unless you go very big, then don't do it at all. But by all means I don't recommend it unless maybe it was big and temporarily houses them as babies at most. This is the last time I respond to this thread.


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## tachikoma

kinison said:


> But your one of those people that always have the right answer and to shoot down other peoples opinions with your "facts" can have a rather rude vibe at times.



I don't think it's rude at all, if you're getting a rude vibe from it that's just your interpretation of it. That would be akin to getting upset at spell-check because it corrects mistakes with proper spelling.


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## rudukai13

In case anyone's worrying, IF I attempt a mixed enclosure any time soon it will probably be a simple arboreal snake in a paludarium with fish. That would be an extremely effective way of creating niches that will keep the species seperate.


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## zBrinks

ChrisK said:


> I would be pretty surprised if it recommended hobbyists mix snakes with darts


 The article was basically a construction journal of a large vivarium, which housed a juvie ETB and dart frogs, if I remember correctly. It discussed the creation of differing microclimates to meet the inhabitant's needs, as well as the experience needed to be successful with such vivaria. 

Maybe I missed it, but where in this thread did the OP run off and purchase a snake to throw in with some frogs? This is a discussion about how to go about creating such a vivaria successfully - we've already established that it can be accomplished.


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## zBrinks

kinison said:


> But your one of those people that always have the right answer and to shoot down other peoples opinions with your "facts"


 Darn those pesky 'facts'!


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## kinison

zBrinks said:


> Darn those pesky 'facts'!


To the cliffs with those facts! I love reading eds post. In return, I have actually found interest in topics that at one point in time never took into consideration. I just did not see where my opinion in snakes eating frogs even if on a frozen diet had anything to do with switching snakes to a frozen diet. It was irrelevant to quote me on it. Anyhow, how 'bout them Bears? Da Bears!


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## ChrisK

zBrinks said:


> Darn those pesky 'facts'!


Yeah, how dare you Ed.


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## zBrinks

kinison said:


> To the cliffs with those facts! I love reading eds post. In return, I have actually found interest in topics that at one point in time never took into consideration. I just did not see where my opinion in snakes eating frogs even if on a frozen diet had anything to do with switching snakes to a frozen diet. It was irrelevant to quote me on it. Anyhow, how 'bout them Bears? Da Bears!


 I sometimes dread reading Ed's posts - they typically lead to at least an hour of unexpected reading


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## rudukai13

Is there any online copy of this article? I'd be interested in giving it a read...


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## zBrinks

I can't seem to find it online, although I know it was online at one point. It was in the past 2 years or so, I believe.


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## Ed

kinison said:


> To the cliffs with those facts! I love reading eds post. In return, I have actually found interest in topics that at one point in time never took into consideration. I just did not see where my opinion in snakes eating frogs even if on a frozen diet had anything to do with switching snakes to a frozen diet. It was irrelevant to quote me on it. Anyhow, how 'bout them Bears? Da Bears!


from post #26 



kinison said:


> That is if you can get them to eat frozen. I have many snakes. Some of which that will not touch frozen. It must be alive. I have others that use to eat frozen just fine and would stop. Then you must switch to live. It is a snakes instinct to eat live and eventually will. I have a couple species known as Western Hognose and in the wild their diet consist of mostly frogs. So to think that a snake will not eat your frog eventually is really pushing the limits in my experience.


In this post you reference that snakes have an instinct to eat live and that (implied generalization) that they will eventually require live prey (as well as commenting that they may not be able to switched to frozen thawed. This is why I cited and responded to it. If you thought switching snakes to frozen was off topic to how the thread developed, then you should not have continued the discussion.

If you read the last sentence I quoted there, your train of subjects indicates that regardless of the snake, that it will require live prey at some randome point and at that time, it will eat the frog. There are a lot of snakes who diet either does not include amphibians at any point and whose genetically programmed food choices do not include amphibians (although they could be trained to eat them (much like switching snakes over to rodents).... this "live prey" drive cannot be used as a generalization that it will consume the frog.. 

Ed


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## karag

I came from a small town were its tropical and we have toads same size with terribilis and almost every night we could hear toads calling then suddenly crying in distress that means its eaten by snake. I've seen it during daytime too. Our house are located in a swamp area. 
Why take a risk?


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## randommind

"How would you setup a combined snake/frog enclosure?"
That's easy ...I wouldn't set one up at all!


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## tclipse

Here's what I think the most reasonable response to your question is-

You shouldn't try it until you have at least kept both species separate until you know each like the back of your hand. That way, you know exactly what each species needs to not only survive, but thrive and stay healthy. You'll also most likely need a much bigger tank than you'd need for each species separately. There are a ton of other considerations that are just too hard to pinpoint using just net research, partly because there isn't much information out there on mixed tanks for the average hobbyist. Just one example- most plants that we keep with dart frogs would get run over and destroyed by a lot of the "compatible" snakes.

If you really want to do it, set up a tank for each, keep each species separate for an extended period of time (more than a few months), and then start planning so you can maximize the chance for success. Even then, after all of that, your chances likely won't be as high as if you kept them on your own... and typically (myself included), after keeping them on their own, you'll grow to appreciate them more in their own enclosures than you would together. 

I see where you're coming from, as a newbie I thought the same thing would be awesome... but after keeping herps for over 10 years and PDF's for almost a year, I just wouldn't do it. I'm not ripping on you, nor encouraging you to do it.. just trying to show you what most consider reasonable caution in cases like these. Jumping in without *extensive* research and experience will set you up for failure when/if a curveball comes out of nowhere... and the responses of the other board members should tell you that they often do.


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## SmackoftheGods

Ed said:


> Hi Jake,
> 
> This is not meant to single you out, I'm using this to reference the idea above..
> 
> There is often a lot of talk about whether or not it is beneficial to either species.. but we should be questioning the argument that it has to be beneficial and instead neutral is an acceptable standard.
> 
> The reason I'm flagging this idea, is because we do a lot of things that may or may not be beneficial to the frogs yet those things get a pass or are accepted yet when it comes to multispecies enclosures, that phrase gets tossed in as if it should be a final determinent.
> 
> Some of the things we do, that may be of questionable benefit yet are accepted by wide segments of hobby (not always the same segment)
> this is not meant to be a list of everything but instead is a representative
> 
> 1) use of silicones containing organotins
> 2) pulling and artifically rearing of tadpoles and froglets
> 3) lack of use of leaf litter/use of large amounts of moss
> 4) optimizing breeding conditions year round without a rest break simulating the wild conditions
> 
> Why is there a double standard on the idea of what is beneficial?
> 
> Ed


Ed,

Of all the people who could single me out, you're the one I'm most okay with it 

For the record, if you can actually find a way to make something neutral in benefit or detriment then I say go for it. What I was responding to was this:



dendrothusiast said:


> I suppose the pros and cons have been worked out that benefits both animals.


Which says nothing about anything being neutral, but that it actually benefits both animals.

The thing for me, is if it's obviously beneficial then I say do it. I'd almost go so far as to say, if it's beneficial you _must_ make your best attempt to do it. So, for your leaf litter example, I've found leaf litter to be one of the most beneficial components to my tanks, and thus all of my tanks have leaf litter. I would never give up leaf litter (something obviously beneficial (to me at least)) for some pretty moss.

However, it's usually pretty easy to see when something is beneficial. My leaf litter provides food for my springs, hiding places for my frogs and froglets, visual barriers, places to go when stressed, etc. To prove something is detrimental can also be pretty easy. Put a 1.2 trio of azureus in the same 30 gallon tank and you're going to notice pretty quickly that you've done something detrimental. But to show that something is actually neutral - that neither the benefit nor the detriment (in this case to either species) would be changed if it were some other way - seems very difficult to me to prove.... 

Can I just share another argument type that's kind of bugging me with this thread? The argument that uses an instance to generalize. Ed works with mixed tanks at his zoo. He's also go 30+ years of herp experience and 10+ years dart frog specific experience. Ed has likely, through his years of experience, found many nuances to make his tanks successful. Rex Lee Searcy, Ben E., undoubtedly have years of experience behind them (and I'm willing to wager that the experience is extensive with both species that they're mixing) and I'm willing to be have developed their own very specific techniques for making a mixed tank successful. So, we have a couple of instances in which mixing a snake with some dart frogs was successful. And this is all great. But just because we have some of these instances doesn't mean we can make generalizations toward the hobby. It's been done; does that mean it _should_ be done in a private collection? Or that most people with X amount of experience can make it work? Or that it's a good idea for more people to start experimenting? I think it's pretty important to note that for people like Ed, who _do_ end up setting up extraordinary tanks that suit multiple species, herps aren't just a hobby. They're life. They're _livelihood_. (Part of) Ed's professional career depends on him doing all the research he can to set environments like this up and have them work. I have to question whether or not those considering similar tanks on this forum can say something even remotely similar (if they could I doubt they'd be coming with questions to a public forum).


----------



## Ed

SmackoftheGods said:


> Ed,
> Of all the people who could single me out, you're the one I'm most okay with it


Thanks 



SmackoftheGods said:


> Which says nothing about anything being neutral, but that it actually benefits both animals.


In trying to build on this aspect.. we should be doing things that are beneficial but we cannot use the argument that if it isn't benefiical we shouldn't do it as this rules out those items that are neutral. In some cases we also should encourage those that are negative. For example as a negative item, reproduction.. reproduction is a pretty heavy negative stressor on the frogs as they expend lots of energy calling, courting and rearing. Yet the hobby doesn't see this in that view, it is only viewed as a positive without any reference to the toll it can take on the frog (and we have seen this in the hobby via poor nutrition, weight loss, fertility issues, spindly leg and hypovitaminosis of the adults). 





SmackoftheGods said:


> The thing for me, is if it's obviously beneficial then I say do it. I'd almost go so far as to say, if it's beneficial you _must_ make your best attempt to do it. So, for your leaf litter example, I've found leaf litter to be one of the most beneficial components to my tanks, and thus all of my tanks have leaf litter. I would never give up leaf litter (something obviously beneficial (to me at least)) for some pretty moss.


This is how I view it. 



SmackoftheGods said:


> However, it's usually pretty easy to see when something is beneficial. My leaf litter provides food for my springs, hiding places for my frogs and froglets, visual barriers, places to go when stressed, etc. To prove something is detrimental can also be pretty easy. Put a 1.2 trio of azureus in the same 30 gallon tank and you're going to notice pretty quickly that you've done something detrimental. But to show that something is actually neutral - that neither the benefit nor the detriment (in this case to either species) would be changed if it were some other way - seems very difficult to me to prove....


It is not as easy to view as that.. look at how many decades it took to work out a lot of the issues around spindly leg... or how to really color up reds in many dendrobatids.. 
How about the difference in benefits between calcium enriched substrates like clay and non-clay enriched, non-soils substrates like ABG mix... One the frog can directly uptake calcium, one the frog cannot.... 

With respect to densities of frogs in enclosures, we are obviously lacking something there in at least some of those cases as well.. look in Lotter's book Poison Frogs at the density of pumilio in the picture on page 601... 

Another good example is the whole argument over bioseal (organotins). It is a known potential hazard as well as a teratogen but the defense on using it was entirely, well I've done it and I haven't seen any problems with the frogs so it is okay. That was an acceptable argument there but as soon as we talk multispecies tanks, it is no longer acceptable. There is a double standard in the hobby on the use of these arguments. 



SmackoftheGods said:


> Can I just share another argument type that's kind of bugging me with this thread? The argument that uses an instance to generalize. Ed works with mixed tanks at his zoo. He's also go 30+ years of herp experience and 10+ years dart frog specific experience.


Closer to 20 years dart frog experience.. but whose counting 



SmackoftheGods said:


> Ed has likely, through his years of experience, found many nuances to make his tanks successful. Rex Lee Searcy, Ben E.,.


Ben is way better at it then me.. he is a true master. 



SmackoftheGods said:


> doesn't mean we can make generalizations toward the hobby. It's been done; does that mean it _should_ be done in a private collection? Or that most people with X amount of experience can make it work? Or that it's a good idea for more people to start experimenting? I think it's pretty important to note that for people like Ed, who _do_ end up setting up extraordinary tanks that suit multiple species, herps aren't just a hobby. They're life. They're _livelihood_. (Part of) Ed's professional career depends on him doing all the research he can to set environments like this up and have them work. I have to question whether or not those considering similar tanks on this forum can say something even remotely similar (if they could I doubt they'd be coming with questions to a public forum).


I'm out of work disabled right now so it isn't my current livihood.. but herpetology and herpetoculture are and have been my life for a very long time. One of the things, I like to dig into is the whys behind things as there is a lot of entrenched dogma not only in this section of the hobby but a lot of the hobby in general.. A lot of the dogma works in the husbandry to a point but a lot of it also keeps us from moving forward.


----------



## mantisdragon91

I couldn't agree with Ed more. This segment of the hobby more than any other really seems closed to new ideas and methods of doing things. More disturbing is the view of a large segment of this hobby is that the experience people have with other segments of the hobby isn't relevant or can't be drawn upon for furher inspiration. I do not keep snakes and those can't comment on the snake mixing aspect of the thread however here are some current mixed tanks currenly in my collection:

1) 1.1 Iquitos vents with 1.1 Northern Vairiablis and 5 SI Tricolors
2) 5 Orange Terriblis with 1.1 Super Tiger leg monkey frogs and 1 black eyed leaf frog
3) 1 Phelsuma Parkeri with 2.2 Homopholis Fasciata and 4 Holapsis Guentheri
4) 1.2 Lygodactylus Williamsi and 1.1 Phelsuma Quadricellata
5) 1.1 Fanfoot geckos with 5 Ocellated Sand skinks
6) 1.1 Allison's Anoles with 1.2 Puerto Rican Yellow Chinned Anoles, 1.0 Gold dust day geckos and 1 flying gecko
7) 1.1 Blue Phase Dumpy Tree frogs with 1.1 Mountain Horned Dragons and .1 mossy leaf tail
8) 1.1 Haitian white lipped anoles with 1.1 Lined Leaftails
9) 1.1 Haitian whte liped anoles with 1.1 Flying Geckos
10) Large scree cage with 1.1 Fire Skinks, 1.1 Malagasy Plated Lizards, 1.0 Bell's Tree Dragon, 4 Emerald Tree Skinks, 1.2 golden geckos, 1. Lined Leaf tail geckos and 3 Chinese Giant Flying Frogs.


Some of these cages have been set up for 5 years or more. There have been no negaive interactions or casualties in any of them. 

Let the flaming begin


----------



## Philsuma

mantisdragon91 said:


> This segment of the hobby more than any other really seems closed to new ideas and methods of doing things.


Not really closed to new ideas as much as closed to NEW hobbyists trying to attempt a complex vivarium as their FIRST setup.



mantisdragon91 said:


> More disturbing is the view of a large segment of this hobby is that the experience people have with other segments of the hobby isn't relevant or can't be drawn upon for furher inspiration.


Inspiration is no substitute for experience. From experience springs new things albeit at slower pace than some would prefer. I personally, do not wish to transfer my frogs, that I've invested quite a bit in, to some new hobbyist to experiment with or use for "inspiration".

If you read a lot of these mixing and hybird threads, you will see that most all of them are started by people with very little dart frog experience.


----------



## mantisdragon91

Phil,

And how is that any diffrent them people with no veterinary or nutritional experience recomending dosing and supplementation protocols? 

People will still attempt things they want to attempt. Rather then turn our backs on them doesn't it make more sense to assist them and learn from their experiences?


----------



## Ed

mantisdragon91 said:


> here are some current mixed tanks currenly in my collection:


Hi Roman,

One of the main aspects of the mixed species enclosures that is often overlooked, is that of novel pathogens gaining virulence in those sorts of set-ups with the risk of escape either into the wider hobby or into the enviroment. 
We have seen this sort of problem from several different levels in the literature as well as the potential future risks. As examples, we should consider mycoplasma infections in native gopher tortoises, and box turtles, various ranaviruses, possibly chytrid, and for potential future risks, consider the case where a cricket was infected with a virus isolated from a reptile (see Experimental infection of crickets (Gryllus bimaculatus) with an invertebrate iridovirus isolated from a high-casqued chameleon (Chamaeleo hoehnelii) -- Weinmann et al. 19 (6): 674 -- Journal of Veterinary Diagnostic Investigation ) indicating that the feeder insects can act as vectors or potentially "mixing" pots as we see with flu viruses (with humans, waterfowl and swine). 

A group of reptiles/amphibians can work socially with no negative issues but there can be a significant risk of novel pathogens so we should really be looking as much as possible towards sympatric species. 

Ed


----------



## mantisdragon91

This is indeed a very valid concern. However unless one keeps various species in separate rooms and has absolutely immaculate bio hazard containment practices the risk is always there. Granted the risk is higher in a mixed tank environment but I believe with proper vigilance the risk can be minimized. Based on my own experience I haven't had any casualties in any of my mixed species tanks that can be attributed to parasites or viruses. Can it happen absolutely does it happen on a regular basis not really. People have been keeping mixed species aquariums for centuries with great amounts of success. Why not mixed species terrariums?


----------



## fleshfrombone

This can easily be summed up with don't do it until you are ready to tackle the subtle intricacies of macro fauna cohabitation in a much more intimate setting.


----------



## Ed

mantisdragon91 said:


> This is indeed a very valid concern. However unless one keeps various species in separate rooms and has absolutely immaculate bio hazard containment practices the risk is always there. Granted the risk is higher in a mixed tank environment but I believe with proper vigilance the risk can be minimized. Based on my own experience I haven't had any casualties in any of my mixed species tanks that can be attributed to parasites or viruses. Can it happen absolutely does it happen on a regular basis not really. People have been keeping mixed species aquariums for centuries with great amounts of success. Why not mixed species terrariums?


The risk will always be present as long as different animals from different regions are housed together but as long as the animals from different regions are housed in seperate enclosures and basic cleanliness is followed (not using same tools in each enclosure without disinfection, hand washing, don't transfer from one cage to the next...), the risk is greatly reduced. Most of the herp pathogens (with the exception of ophidian paramyxovirus) are not airborn. 

You may not have seen any problems but the more people that community house species from disparate localites, the greater the risk we are going to see to both captive and wild populations. For some reason, the same massive outbreaks of novel diseases tended to not be seen in the aquatic fish trade.. 
For further examples of problems, 
ranavirus in box turtles (http://etd.lib.ncsu.edu/publications/bitstream/1840.2/1985/1/lewbart+11.pdf )

Iguana virus in box turtles 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC422407/pdf/iai00268-0141.pdf (note that this one currently doesn't cause symptoms..) 

Fer de Lance Virus (replicates in reptile, mammalian and bird tissues in cultures) http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/405.pdf

These are some of the example of the expanding body of knowledge.. 

Ed


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Ed said:


> In trying to build on this aspect.. we should be doing things that are beneficial but we cannot use the argument that if it isn't benefiical we shouldn't do it as this rules out those items that are neutral. In some cases we also should encourage those that are negative. For example as a negative item, reproduction.. reproduction is a pretty heavy negative stressor on the frogs as they expend lots of energy calling, courting and rearing. Yet the hobby doesn't see this in that view, it is only viewed as a positive without any reference to the toll it can take on the frog (and we have seen this in the hobby via poor nutrition, weight loss, fertility issues, spindly leg and hypovitaminosis of the adults).
> 
> ...
> 
> It is not as easy to view as that.. look at how many decades it took to work out a lot of the issues around spindly leg... or how to really color up reds in many dendrobatids..
> How about the difference in benefits between calcium enriched substrates like clay and non-clay enriched, non-soils substrates like ABG mix... One the frog can directly uptake calcium, one the frog cannot....


I can actually see where you're coming from, and all, from my perspective, are valid points (except I might question whether or not breeding is _truly_ negative. Negative for the individual frog, yes, but for the frog population (even in a single tank) or for the hobby as a whole I'm not sure I could consider breeding a negative).

However, I still have to question how easy it is to say "doing this is neither beneficial or detrimental." It's taken decades to work around some of the issues with spindly legs. If it's taken so long to work out figuring out some things that are beneficial or negative (things that have an end result so that you can say, "when I do this, ____ is the end result" and can thus be labeled beneficial or detrimental) how much longer might it take to prove that something is neither beneficial or negative? If something is _truly_ neutral then would it not be even _more_ difficult to _show_ that it's neutral? Mostly because the end result would be no change. Someone can tell me "I've been keeping a snake and dart frogs together for five years and there's been no change, so it must be neutral," but can this anecdote really be used as evidence that there are no negative or positive consequences when I can respond "I have a friend who's had bioseal, a known detriment, continuously in one of his tanks for more than five years and has witnessed no change?"


----------



## Ed

SmackoftheGods said:


> I can actually see where you're coming from, and all, from my perspective, are valid points (except I might question whether or not breeding is _truly_ negative. Negative for the individual frog, yes, but for the frog population (even in a single tank) or for the hobby as a whole I'm not sure I could consider breeding a negative).


In the context of multispecies enclosures, we have been discussing the whether or not it is beneficial/negative on the level of the individual animal. We have ample support both in anecdotal observations, and the literature that on the level of the individual reproduction is usually a significant stressor/drain on the resources of the individual frog and when that is coupled with an artificial manipulation to maintain breeding conditions year round, overfeeding the frogs and supplementing them to accomedate the artificial breeding schedule, it is quite easy to look at this as a negative. (Particularly given the context of the poor quality frog threads that pop up infrequently here..) 

In the context of a larger population in this hobby, we can easily see a potential negative as most of the frogs undergo boom and bust cycles in popularity resulting in boom and busts in population during which the population often drops to a fraction of its prior size. It is hard to view this as not being a negative as well.. as the models (based on the ones used by conservation programs) indicate that each of these will result in a loss of genetic diversity..... 

Now I am not saying we shouldn't be breeding the frogs, just that we cannot always claim it is always a benefit to the frogs as an individual or as a population. 



SmackoftheGods said:


> However, I still have to question how easy it is to say "doing this is neither beneficial or detrimental." It's taken decades to work around some of the issues with spindly legs. If it's taken so long to work out figuring out some things that are beneficial or negative (things that have an end result so that you can say, "when I do this, ____ is the end result" and can thus be labeled beneficial or detrimental) how much longer might it take to prove that something is neither beneficial or negative? If something is _truly_ neutral then would it not be even _more_ difficult to _show_ that it's neutral? Mostly because the end result would be no change. Someone can tell me "I've been keeping a snake and dart frogs together for five years and there's been no change, so it must be neutral," but can this anecdote really be used as evidence that there are no negative or positive consequences when I can respond "I have a friend who's had bioseal, a known detriment, continuously in one of his tanks for more than five years and has witnessed no change?"


An understanding of how stress operates in animals is a good way to see how one can determine whether or not something is a neutral in a longer run. It sounds like you are willing to think critically enough (this is a sincere compliment even if it doesn't sound like one) that you would probably benefit a lot from reading Warwick, Clifford; Frye, Frederic L.; Murphy, James B.; 1995; Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles; Chapman and Hall, London. 

In short, if the animals(s) are exposed to a stress it depends on several things such as the severity of the stressor, and the frequency of the stressor. The most common form of this seen in herps occurs in wild collected animals which die once they are in captivity. This is often termed maladaption syndrome. If the animals are stabilized, in captivity, the metabolic effects of the stress slowly fade over the course of several weeks but the animal may still have a significant response to a major stressor such as handling for a year or more (usually more of an issue in wc animals than cb). In these animals once acclimated, unless the stress is significant enough to kill the animal in days (maladaption) or is consistently intermittantly applied (like catching up your frogs every week), adaption to the stressor will occur and stress hormones will drop to normal, normal behaviors will reassert themselves (unless behaviorally conditioned to not reassert). This is how the interpretation of housing an animal together for long period could be considered a neutral.... 


When looking into the bioseal issue (and I refer those interested to the threads..), we are also looking at substance known to interfere with amphibians as an endocrine disrupter, as well as other issues. So a visual observation without a control on rates of egg deposition, sex determinent results and development are all needed before one can simply say it is neutral. In this case, people want it to be neutral as it would be inconvient to have to reset up many cages, look for and aquire silicones without organotins as well as costing money to reset up and purchase non-organotin containing silicones. In this case, we have a known hazard with literature backing up the issues (for another example see http://blumberg-serv.bio.uci.edu/reprints/iguchi-Int_J_Andrology.pdf )

As a further complication, exposure to organotins can be indicative of later obesity in animals.. one of the problems commonly seen in these frogs is obesity... 

On that track, obesity is viewed as a positive as many people start commenting on how thin a frog is when compared to other captive frogs even if it is still fatter than its wild counterparts.... 

Some comments, 

Ed


----------



## Judy S

you scare me... your reading list is a lot different than most...it just amazes me when I read your posts with its depth and breadth...do you have any other hobbies???? How in the world do you have any time to do anything else>>>? This Board is very lucky to have you as a resource...


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## mantisdragon91

One thing sometimes gets overlooked when everyone gets on their high horses about the evils of mixing. At the end of the day this hobby is about people bringing a slice of nature into their homes and using it as a get away from the stresses of the world around us. If a properly designed mixed tank adds to that enjoyment who are we to criticise. As Ed so accurately pointed out on a number of occassions we already do many things that are not always in our frogs best interest such as artificial cycles, pulling offspring, exposing them to potentially toxic substances(including but not limited to Panacur which is a thread on its own). In light of all that why jump down some one's throat when they are asking for advise on something they will do regardless of what the vocal majority on this board deems is appropriate. I particularly find it amusing that some of the most vocal opponents of mixing have no real experience of their own, but simply parrot the information they have heard elsewhere from sources which are often reluctant or unable to bring documentation to support their claims.


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## Quaz

I had thought about putting darts with my green tree python but here are a few reasons that I did not.

High temps required for the snake may not be good for frogs. Maybe a pair of pumilio or other thumb nail. If you did a tall enough enclosure then you could do a bit of a temperature variation. Especially if you had a water feature. You could also keep it more humid on the bottome too. I have my GTP basking spot at 88-92 and the coolest the rest of the tank may get is 75. Even though the snake likes it humid the frogs that I keep are in more of a static humidity and I'd be worried about respitory issues with the snake.


----------



## Quaz

One other thing is that I like the ease and cleanliness of keeping my GTP in a pretty sterile tank. I use just pvc, paper towel, and a water bowl. Even with tough decor a snake can be pretty rough on a well designed naturalistic vivarium especially if you're trying to get them off a limb.

I have seen this done though with success as stated in another thread with an eyelash viper and gold bi-colors. It's a fairly tall viv. 

in regards to species of snake and frog since it's some what of an experiment I, personally wouldn't start off with my prized green tree python and my $350 pair of pumilios.

Maybe an amazon tree boa and some luecs. Even though amazons love geckos they may be too predatious of the little hoppers. The main thing would be cheap. Though that is a consideration of where you put the value; in the monitary cost or the value of the living animal no matter if it's a "cheap" animal or not.


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## blaster40

won't say I told you so. lol . good for you


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## Bcs TX

Good for you, do what you want with your animals. Personally I will not sell or trade frogs with you for you to "experiment" with them.
This thread is very tiring and yet another crappy mixed thread.
Can we give it a break?


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## earthfrog

Quaz said:


> One other thing is that I like the ease and cleanliness of keeping my GTP in a pretty sterile tank. I use just pvc, paper towel, and a water bowl. Even with tough decor a snake can be pretty rough on a well designed naturalistic vivarium especially if you're trying to get them off a limb.
> 
> I have seen this done though with success as stated in another thread with an eyelash viper and gold bi-colors. It's a fairly tall viv.
> 
> in regards to species of snake and frog since it's some what of an experiment I, personally wouldn't start off with my prized green tree python and my $350 pair of pumilios.
> 
> Maybe an amazon tree boa and some luecs. Even though amazons love geckos they may be too predatious of the little hoppers. The main thing would be cheap. Though that is a consideration of where you put the value; in the monitary cost or the value of the living animal no matter if it's a "cheap" animal or not.


The value of any living animal is infinitely greater than its monetary value. It's not even a comparison. 

This whole discussion makes me 

*Don't mix them. Period.*


----------



## kinison

tachikoma said:


> That would be akin to getting upset at spell-check because it corrects mistakes with proper spelling.


More like getting upset with spell check because it puts a line under the word "Azureus" or "Tachikoma" knowing your spelling it correctly.


----------



## tclipse

mantisdragon91 said:


> Phil,
> 
> People will still attempt things they want to attempt. Rather then turn our backs on them doesn't it make more sense to assist them and learn from their experiences?


Roman, 

one of the main reasons many of us get irked by threads like these is because you have to consider the mindset of the OP's. The vast majority of the threads that you see are in the mindset of "DUDE KNOW WHAT WOULD BE SWEET? I'LL PUT MY TOKAY AND MY BALL PYTHON IN THE SAME TANK AND ANOLES AND A POND FOR MY TURTLE" and not "I'm going to establish a successful mixed enclosure with the well-being of each specie in mind." I personally feel that recommending against mixing with that first mentality IS assisting them... it's most likely saving them money, time, and frustration. 

Also, by recommending against it, I'm helping them learn from MY experiences. I tried it a few times as an uneducated pre-teen, and personally witnessed deterioration in the health of several animals (I did lose one animal also- a house gecko that I thought would be okay with a veiled chameleon... BOY was I wrong)... so I stopped. Most of the OP's in threads like these are younger and less experienced with herps, and I'd rather pass on my knowledge than let them potentially stress out more animals. 

I'm sure there are some working combos, as you've shown... but none of those combos (other than with tree frogs) involve PDF's. Your list itself makes a statement about the parameters etc. needed to keep a successful mixed tank involving PDF's... generally speaking, the PDF > Reptile parameter gap is much bigger than the PDF > tree frog > reptile gaps. I'm guessing that's one reason you keep PDF's with tree frogs and tree frogs with reptiles but not PDF's with reptiles. 

All of that being said, I do have a mixed tank. It's a 125 gallon with three patricias and two mourning geckos.. and when it comes to mixing PDF's, that's as far as I'm gonna go.


----------



## mantisdragon91

tclipse said:


> I'm sure there are some working combos, as you've shown... but none of those combos (other than with tree frogs) involve PDF's. Your list itself makes a statement about the parameters etc. needed to keep a successful mixed tank involving PDF's... generally speaking, the PDF > Reptile parameter gap is much bigger than the PDF > tree frog > reptile gaps. I'm guessing that's one reason you keep PDF's with tree frogs and tree frogs with reptiles but not PDF's with reptiles.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Its actually a little more complex then that. Much like Ed I also worry about the implications presented by parasites from diffrent geographical regions than animals are used too. And thus with a couple of exceptions normally only keep animals that are from the same geographical regions together. The challenge with mixing darts with other animals is the sheer amount of humidity that they prefer would be unhealthy for most reptiles from the regions they come from. I know of people that have kept various Gonatodes, Anoles and Spharodactylus species with darts but the challenge that I don't feel comfortable dealing with is the need for heat lamps that all these species require and the fact that the tanks would be too humid to accomodate proper egg developement for the reptiles in question. I also know of people that have had great success keeping Brookesia and Rhampholeon species with darts but the challenge is that these little chameleons drown easily in relatively shallow water bodies.
> 
> On the other hand many of the bigger tree frog species actually need quite a bit of ventilation which make them ideal candidates to be housed in screen cages with arboreal reptiles from the same geo regions.
> 
> Its kind of interesting because Zach has a great thread on here about his Malagasy tank that incorporates mantellas, phelsuma and malagasy reeds and everyone is super excited and supportive about it. Would it be the same reaction if he had done a tank with darts, gonatodes and clown tree frogs which are all the south american equivalents of the species he mixed?
> 
> Just curious


----------



## ChrisK

mantisdragon91 said:


> Its kind of interesting because Zach has a great thread on here about his Malagasy tank that incorporates mantellas, phelsuma and malagasy reeds and everyone is super excited and supportive about it. Would it be the same reaction if he had done a tank with darts, gonatodes and clown tree frogs which are all the south american equivalents of the species he mixed?
> 
> Just curious


Possibly - when done right and by an experienced person it's a different story. I mentioned before in another thread that Ed almost had me mixing hourglass treefrogs with blue jeans in a large tank, since I was experienced with both species, both species are from the same area, had the bj's in a large tank already, do testing and treatment for parasites etc before putting frogs in a tank, I probably woulda went for it but I didn't feel like dealing with crickets or bean beetles which are what would be best for the treefrogs.


----------



## earthfrog

mantisdragon91 said:


> tclipse said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure there are some working combos, as you've shown... but none of those combos (other than with tree frogs) involve PDF's. Your list itself makes a statement about the parameters etc. needed to keep a successful mixed tank involving PDF's... generally speaking, the PDF > Reptile parameter gap is much bigger than the PDF > tree frog > reptile gaps. I'm guessing that's one reason you keep PDF's with tree frogs and tree frogs with reptiles but not PDF's with reptiles.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Its actually a little more complex then that. Much like Ed I also worry about the implications presented by parasites from diffrent geographical regions than animals are used too. And thus with a couple of exceptions normally only keep animals that are from the same geographical regions together. The challenge with mixing darts with other animals is the sheer amount of humidity that they prefer would be unhealthy for most reptiles from the regions they come from. I know of people that have kept various Gonatodes, Anoles and Spharodactylus species with darts but the challenge that I don't feel comfortable dealing with is the need for heat lamps that all these species require and the fact that the tanks would be too humid to accomodate proper egg developement for the reptiles in question. I also know of people that have had great success keeping Brookesia and Rhampholeon species with darts but the challenge is that these little chameleons drown easily in relatively shallow water bodies.
> 
> On the other hand many of the bigger tree frog species actually need quite a bit of ventilation which make them ideal candidates to be housed in screen cages with arboreal reptiles from the same geo regions.
> 
> Its kind of interesting because Zach has a great thread on here about his Malagasy tank that incorporates mantellas, phelsuma and malagasy reeds and everyone is super excited and supportive about it. Would it be the same reaction if he had done a tank with darts, gonatodes and clown tree frogs which are all the south american equivalents of the species he mixed?
> 
> Just curious
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is just going in circles and will likely start an endless argument. It does not seem worth answering, and I think the main points have already been made about newbies mixing. This argument isn't even on the same level of the arguments made against newbies mixing, it is for more advanced hobbyists.
> 
> I agree with tclipse on this one. No mixing for newbies. Get experience and learn before experimenting. Also, endangered frogs would benefit from being bred, not mixed with other animals for fun.
Click to expand...


----------



## mantisdragon91

ChrisK said:


> Possibly - when done right and by an experienced person it's a different story. I mentioned before in another thread that Ed almost had me mixing hourglass treefrogs with blue jeans in a large tank, since I was experienced with both species, both species are from the same area, had the bj's in a large tank already, do testing and treatment for parasites etc before putting frogs in a tank, I probably woulda went for it but I didn't feel like dealing with crickets or bean beetles which are what would be best for the treefrogs.


Very valid crickets are a pain in the A Which is why the only darts I currently mix with trees are Orange Terriblis which are aggressive enough to polish off the 3/8" crickets that I feed to the tree frogs they are currently housed with. There is a lot of relaxation and a great sense of accomplishment that can be gotten out of a properly designed and researched mixed tank. This is what I am trying to encourage as oppossed to people mixing blindly or just stamping their feet and shouting absolutely not.


----------



## tclipse

> Its actually a little more complex then that. Much like Ed I also worry about the implications presented by parasites from diffrent geographical regions than animals are used too. And thus with a couple of exceptions normally only keep animals that are from the same geographical regions together. The challenge with mixing darts with other animals is the sheer amount of humidity that they prefer would be unhealthy for most reptiles from the regions they come from. I know of people that have kept various Gonatodes, Anoles and Spharodactylus species with darts but the challenge that I don't feel comfortable dealing with is the need for heat lamps that all these species require and the fact that the tanks would be too humid to accomodate proper egg developement for the reptiles in question. I also know of people that have had great success keeping Brookesia and Rhampholeon species with darts but the challenge is that these little chameleons drown easily in relatively shallow water bodies.
> 
> On the other hand many of the bigger tree frog species actually need quite a bit of ventilation which make them ideal candidates to be housed in screen cages with arboreal reptiles from the same geo regions.
> 
> Its kind of interesting because Zach has a great thread on here about his Malagasy tank that incorporates mantellas, phelsuma and malagasy reeds and everyone is super excited and supportive about it. Would it be the same reaction if he had done a tank with darts, gonatodes and clown tree frogs which are all the south american equivalents of the species he mixed?
> 
> Just curious


Yeah, as I said that was *one* reason. And yeah the humidity/temp factors are what I was referring to when I said "parameter gap". Seems like we're just about on the same page. 

As for Zach's tank, I know that was rhetorical but here's a shot anyways- I think most would be just as supportive, because Zach is a trusted member (not to mention a mod, which suggests he probably knows his way around a frog or two) with definite herp experience.. if he just happened to waltz onto the scene and started a tank like that (which is the case with 90% of these threads that pop up), that's where mass flame mode turns on.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I think there are two main kinds of people who set up mixed species tanks: people who really don't care, ask things like "can a dart and a green tree frog go in a 20 gallon with an Eastern newt?", and and do basically just want to keep as much as they can in one tank because they do not want to spend money on healthy animals or additional tanks since they don't see why mixing is bad or ignore opinions from experienced people; then there are those that do actually spend more time/ effort than needed for a single species enclosure to mix species, such as zoo/aquarium displays- these still may be unsuccessful, though. I don't know what kind of people set up the majority of mixed tanks, but I would guess that is the former group. Unfortunately, there are many mixed tanks that probably fail miserably but "the pet store said they would get along great," so they never did real research. Unfortunately, considering how many beginner mixing questions we get here, and how many darts are sold in pet stores/ Kingsnake, I would think most mixed tanks are those that do not take more time and money than other tanks.
> And by the way, I don't think you meant this in a derogatory way, but you can easily "throw together a tank over the weekend" that is very functional and well suited for the animals, or spend lots of time/ money into an elaborate single species tank as well.
> Bryan


Agreed. I think though the majority of mixed tanks are the crappy kind...just because of the sheer number of people in the hobby, especially those that are beginners or semi intermediates, which are the most likely to mix. More advanced hobbyists are fewer in number and less inclined to mix, but when they do they are of course better prepared usually. The majority of the reptile/amphib hobbyists are still using fake plants and artificial decor with water bowls, sticks they found in their yard and crap like that. I think we sometimes forget that. The vivarium hobby is growing, but our more advanced techniques aren't the norm yet, and a lot of the mixers are those who have not progressed to this level. 

As for the OP's original question, I'd do as large of an enclosure as possible in most cases. At least double what would be suitable for the snake alone probably. I'd probably stick with snake species that tend to hunt by heat, rather then rely on sight and smell as much as other species. You should know your individual snakes personality, and I would advise using animals that you have had in your collection for awhile instead of buying a new animal specifically for a new mixed species enclosure. You are dealing with an unknown there. Of course research each species extensively and provide suitable niches/micro climates and keep interaction to a minimum. I think planted tanks are possible with large enough enclosures and good species choices and plant choices. Landscaping in certain ways may help keep snakes out of heavily planted areas or areas with smaller more delicate plants. I don't really have enough practical experience to offer species suggestions for snakes. Obviously you want something small that is not inclined to feed on frogs is mostly arboreal and to small to damage the majority of your plant choices or something large that wouldn't bother with such a small prey animals especially if it is "cold", and again is probably arboreal and likely to stay away from the plants below if given a large enough enclosure with good climbing routes.


----------



## mantisdragon91

tclipse said:


> Yeah, as I said that was *one* reason. And yeah the humidity/temp factors are what I was referring to when I said "parameter gap". Seems like we're just about on the same page.
> 
> As for Zach's tank, I know that was rhetorical but here's a shot anyways- I think most would be just as supportive, because Zach is a trusted member (not to mention a mod, which suggests he probably knows his way around a frog or two) with definite herp experience.. if he just happened to waltz onto the scene and started a tank like that (which is the case with 90% of these threads that pop up), that's where mass flame mode turns on.


So what I am hearing then is that we flame first and then stop and bother to see if there is any value to be had from the person's experience. Can't say that benefits the growth of the hobby much. The last Mid-Atlantic meet was held at my house. A number of people were at my house. If they saw anything they found troublesome they are more then wecome to speak up and point it out.

There is lots of directions people can go with this hobby. Creating beatiful, geographicly correct mixed tanks should be one of them. No one should randomly throw animals together. But no one should flame people just because they don't bother to stop and listed to what they have to say. That is what turns a community into a clique, and in my 25 years of animal keeping experience I an tell you that not much learning or hobby advancement happens in a clique.


----------



## Philsuma

mantisdragon91 said:


> So what I am hearing then is that we flame first and then stop and bother to see if there is any value to be had from the person's experience.


Re-read the OP. There was no experience cited, only what was thought of by many readers as a possible troll attempt:

...."Seen a few threads on the site *a while ago* about keeping an arboreal snake in the same enclosure as darts and *was wanting to start a discussion* on the topic. First and foremost, let me clarify - I understand mixing any two animals in one enclosure is either a) frowned upon, or b) something that should only be attempted by someone with vast experience with both species going into the enclosure. *I have no plans to do anything like this any time soon*, but it is certainly something that interests me perhaps for a future project. So let's get the discussion started with a few questions".....

So, the OP had no plans to start this anytime soon. He already new it was frowned up, ect. While not 100% trollish.....I am quite sure enough of our membership here looked at that topic request as....uhhhh....hmmmm??



mantisdragon91 said:


> Can't say that benefits the growth of the hobby much.


I can't say either...but I sure can make a list of 25 topics that would benefit the growth of the hobby much more than a speculative post on a singular advanced hobbyist vivarium design that only a very few people have the time, money and experience to attempt.

Zach's "Malagasy" thread is an example of a mixed enclosure topic that elicits a much better response. Ask yourself and research why that is?

Mixed species enclosures can be attempted and discussed. Yep.

Does that give a carte blanche mandate to coddle and entertain every single started thread, especially when it's clear that there are a multitude of problems inherent before even going forward with the discussion. Nope.


----------



## mantisdragon91

Good points Phil,

can't say I disagree with any of them. So then perhaps we should start a thread on mixes that have worked for others.


----------



## Philsuma

mantisdragon91 said:


> Good points Phil,
> 
> can't say I disagree with any of them. So then perhaps we should start a thread on mixes that have worked for others.


We sure can...._after_ we get to the 12 other threads that need much more immediate attention:

1. Quarantine
2. Temporary enclosure design
3. Organic vs inorganic background
4. Tadople water composition
5. Minimum enclosure size for breeding adults
6. Optimal sex ratio for different species.
7..8...9...10..11...12

As you must agree.....we gotta lotta other topics to hit up first.


----------



## tachikoma

Philsuma said:


> Re-read the OP. There was no experience cited, only what was thought of by many readers as a possible troll attempt:
> 
> ...."Seen a few threads on the site *a while ago* about keeping an arboreal snake in the same enclosure as darts and *was wanting to start a discussion* on the topic. First and foremost, let me clarify - I understand mixing any two animals in one enclosure is either a) frowned upon, or b) something that should only be attempted by someone with vast experience with both species going into the enclosure. *I have no plans to do anything like this any time soon*, but it is certainly something that interests me perhaps for a future project. So let's get the discussion started with a few questions".....
> 
> So, the OP had no plans to start this anytime soon. He already new it was frowned up, ect. While not 100% trollish.....I am quite sure enough of our membership here looked at that topic request as....uhhhh....hmmmm??
> 
> 
> 
> I can't say either...but I sure can make a list of 25 topics that would benefit the growth of the hobby much more than a speculative post on a singular advanced hobbyist vivarium design that only a very few people have the time, money and experience to attempt.
> 
> Zach's "Malagasy" thread is an example of a mixed enclosure topic that elicits a much better response. Ask yourself and research why that is?
> 
> Mixed species enclosures can be attempted and discussed. Yep.
> 
> Does that give a carte blanche mandate to coddle and entertain every single started thread, especially when it's clear that there are a multitude of problems inherent before even going forward with the discussion. Nope.


I'm not sure man, no matter how I try to look at it, It seems to me this guy had valid questions he wanted answers to. Being as he has no experience with this type of setup shouldn't we be grateful he is asking first before he even was close to attempting this idea? Asking questions is part of the research process, and the whole point of a forum is so he has other people to ask, not just himself. He even mentioned he knew how people felt about the subject which leads me to believe that he did indeed do his share of research on the forum already and still had questions. I sincerely did not think his post was trollish, and I thought the way many people jumped on him even after he already said he knew people's woes and concerns on the subject were an embarrassment to our hobby. It reminded me of super aggressive surfers beating down newbies when they are just trying to learn at the beach.


----------



## mantisdragon91

Philsuma said:


> We sure can...._after_ we get to the 12 other threads that need much more immediate attention:
> 
> 1. Quarantine
> 2. Temporary enclosure design
> 3. Organic vs inorganic background
> 4. Tadople water composition
> 5. Minimum enclosure size for breeding adults
> 6. Optimal sex ratio for different species.
> 7..8...9...10..11...12
> 
> As you must agree.....we gotta lotta other topics to hit up first.


Can't say I do.... So which member of the clique gets to set the prioriries for everyone else?


----------



## Baltimore Bryan

tachikoma said:


> I'm not sure man, no matter how I try to look at it, It seems to me this guy had valid questions he wanted answers to. Being as he has no experience with this type of setup shouldn't we be grateful he is asking first before he even was close to attempting this idea? Asking questions is part of the research process, and the whole point of a forum is so he has other people to ask, not just himself. He even mentioned he knew how people felt about the subject which leads me to believe that he did indeed do his share of research on the forum already and still had questions. I sincerely did not think his post was trollish, and I thought the way many people jumped on him even after he already said he knew people's woes and concerns on the subject were an embarrassment to our hobby. It reminded me of super aggressive surfers beating down newbies when they are just trying to learn at the beach.


I agree, I didn't really interpret the OP as "trollist." It seemed to me like he had an honest question and was asking for advice from those who had done it before. He acknowledged that he understood the hobby's general stance toward mixing and did not intend to do it soon. I think it is acceptable and should be encouraged to ask for first hand advice and opinions from experienced people instead of just trying it without a plan. Back to the original subject, I honestly couldn't tell you because I have never kept snakes (not my cup of tea). However, most of the mixed snakes/ frog enclosures I've seen (like at the NAIB) were of course, large, but also rather tall. The height was used to almost make a clear separation of habitat niches to minimize and discourage interaction between inhabitants. For example, there may be lots of plants/ cover on the ground for frog, the a clearly separated area that is rather bare and discourages animals from "crossing over" into other niches, above which would be large vines/ branches for the snakes or large tree frogs. 
Bryan


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## Dendro Dave

I think people are afraid if they actually "discuss" this topic rather then just chiming in with "search the forum for mixing threads"..or "bad idea man", it encourages people. Pointing people towards other threads is fine but it would be nice to see people mention some of the points those people should be on the look out for in those threads. It is left up to a small group of us who are actually willing to discuss this to answer questions, make suggestions, and educate about the risks, to handle these threads for the most part beyond the "do a search" or "bad idea" remarks. Be nice if more people stepped up not to just educate about the risks but also discuss how to do this as responsibly as possible. 

This topic reminds me of the whole safe sex vs abstinence debate. "Oh no if we mention safe sex and give kids condoms they'll screw like rabbits!", Of course then they go off and get pregnant or get an std when we don't. Personally I think better informed people make better decisions on the whole. If instead of reacting emotionally and/or directing traffic to other threads we stepped back took a deep breath and started helping people be informed many would decide not to mix, and those who went ahead would probably do it more responsibly. Thats what I'd like to see anyways. This topic is never going to go away, there will always be some to lazy to search and then ask more specific questions. At least the OP here had a fairly specific subtopic in mind. It gets old being one of only a handful of people actually willing to DISCUSS this topic


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## Philsuma

Are you guys intentionally overlooking this?

*"I have no plans to do anything like this any time soon"*

soooo.....let's devote a ton of energry and discussion for something that's not even going to happen. 

yeah...that seems like a great priority topic.


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## Dendro Dave

Philsuma said:


> Are you guys intentionally overlooking this?
> 
> *"I have no plans to do anything like this any time soon"*
> 
> soooo.....let's devote a ton of energry and discussion for something that's not even going to happen.
> 
> yeah...that seems like a great priority topic.


It could be useful information to others currently planning on doing something similar soon...or later. Plus hell I'm unemployed...I got time for both  I like your suggestion about sex ratios though. I've kinda been wondering whats good for a lot of species I haven't kept. I've generally found in the species I've kept that 2 females or 2 males will get along if the opposite sex isn't there. 1 male, 2 females usually works well also...2.2. etc..etc.. Is usually only safe with good group frogs. and 2 males 1 female can be a bad idea with any species. Does all that generally hold true for all the other darts?


----------



## tachikoma

Philsuma said:


> Are you guys intentionally overlooking this?
> 
> *"I have no plans to do anything like this any time soon"*
> 
> soooo.....let's devote a ton of energry and discussion for something that's not even going to happen.
> 
> yeah...that seems like a great priority topic.


Feel free not to comment then if it's too much trouble. ( not directed at you just people in general) It's good that he mentioned he did not plan to do it anytime soon. It means he will take his time to research this topic and get all the facts before he ever attempts this. The conversation has to start sometime and it might as well be now.


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## Philsuma

tachikoma said:


> Feel free not to comment then if it's too much trouble. ( not directed at you just people in general) It's good that he mentioned he did not plan to do it anytime soon. It means he will take his time to research this topic and get all the facts before he ever attempts this. The conversation has to start sometime and it might as well be now.


Fair enough....I'm out.

Have fun with Roman discussing this important topic that will be... bound to happen sooner or later.

I'll keep subscription so I can see the new information.


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## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> It could be useful information to others currently planning on doing something similar soon...or later. Plus hell I'm unemployed...I got time for both  I like your suggestion about sex ratios though. I've kinda been wondering whats good for a lot of species I haven't kept. I've generally found in the species I've kept that 2 females or 2 males will get along if the opposite sex isn't there. 1 male, 2 females usually works well also...2.2. etc..etc.. Is usually only safe with good group frogs. and 2 males 1 female can be a bad idea with any species. Does all that generally hold true for all the other darts?


 
This is a recommendation that has changed over time particularly for those in the "tinctorius" group of frogs... Now the recommendations are often along the lines that you are guaranteed to have problems including death if you house them in groups.. 

Many years ago back during the dark ages of heresy... it was not uncommon for people to keep and breed those species in groups.. generally you needed more males than females (as males are a guarded limiting resources), multiple egg deposition sites (that are obstructed from each other's view by sight barriers), as well as sight barriers for the frogs to get away from one another. 


Ed


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## Ed

tclipse said:


> Yeah, as I said that was *one* reason. And yeah the humidity/temp factors are what I was referring to when I said "parameter gap".


 
I just want to point out that the standard humidity recommendations used for dendrobatids are used as a method to maximize thier activity periods beyond what is normally seen in the wild.. Do accomplish this air exchange in the enclosures is limited.. this is where problems can occur with other species... 

For example, see JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (sorry no free access to this one). 


Ed


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## mantisdragon91

Ed said:


> This is a recommendation that has changed over time particularly for those in the "tinctorius" group of frogs... Now the recommendations are often along the lines that you are guaranteed to have problems including death if you house them in groups..
> 
> Many years ago back during the dark ages of heresy... it was not uncommon for people to keep and breed those species in groups.. generally you needed more males than females (as males are a guarded limiting resources), multiple egg deposition sites (that are obstructed from each other's view by sight barriers), as well as sight barriers for the frogs to get away from one another.
> 
> 
> Ed


Its actually amusing to see how much what is considered standard dart husbandry advise was ignored with minimal if any negative affects back in the 80's and 90's by the pioneers in the hobby. For instance the whole theory of keeping Azureus morph tads separate when in the wild multiple tads are usually found in the same small water receptacle. This is what happens when a couple of so called experts spout their experiences on the web, and no one presses them for documentation.

The web is a wonderful thing for the spread of information, unfortunately it is also a wonderful thing for the spread of misinformation. As an old proffessor of mine used to say "Always check your sources. Only fools accept statements at face value".


----------



## Ed

mantisdragon91 said:


> Its actually amusing to see how much what is considered standard dart husbandry advise was ignored with minimal if any negative affects back in the 80's and 90's by the pioneers in the hobby. For instance the whole theory of keeping Azureus morph tads separate when in the wild multiple tads are usually found in the same small water receptacle. This is what happens when a couple of so called experts spout their experiences on the web, and no one presses them for documentation.
> 
> The web is a wonderful thing for the spread of information, unfortunately it is also a wonderful thing for the spread of misinformation. As an old proffessor of mine used to say "Always check your sources. Only fools accept statements at face value".


Within the tinctorius group cannibalism is documented... 

See for example 

http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br/articles/volume8/number1/814150.pdf 

http://www.snomnh.ou.edu/pdf/1998/98-4.pdf

To make a generalization, cannibalism appears to be a result of lack of animal protein in the diet. I was unable to get cannibalism with a species known for it (R. ventrimaculatus) in captivity and the wild, even under high tadpole densities (5 tadpoles/half quart) by including live blackworms in the enclosure. 

Ed


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## mantisdragon91

Ed said:


> Within the tinctorius group cannibalism is documented...
> 
> See for example
> 
> http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br/articles/volume8/number1/814150.pdf
> 
> http://www.snomnh.ou.edu/pdf/1998/98-4.pdf
> 
> To make a generalization, cannibalism appears to be a result of lack of animal protein in the diet. I was unable to get cannibalism with a species known for it (R. ventrimaculatus) in captivity and the wild, even under high tadpole densities (5 tadpoles/half quart) by including live blackworms in the enclosure.
> 
> Ed


Exactly what I mean. People make general statements saying that tinc/auraus/leucs can't be raised in groups but fail to document the fact that the animals were kept inadequately or fed improperly which led to cannibalism issues. The reason I always ask for documentation is only by eliminating the variables such as inadeaquate protein in diet can one separate fact from fiction. Not sure why there is such a pushback from some people and such a rush to take things personally when said documentation is asked for. Last time I checked that is simple scientific method.(Take my experience/ take your experience and if the end results are diffrent find out what we did diffrently.)


----------



## rudukai13

Philsuma said:


> Are you guys intentionally overlooking this?
> 
> *"I have no plans to do anything like this any time soon"*
> 
> soooo.....let's devote a ton of energry and discussion for something that's not even going to happen.
> 
> yeah...that seems like a great priority topic.


Philsuma, I made the quoted comment to stress the fact that I hadn't already run out to the store and thrown some animals together in a cage. It was meant to express that I was looking for information and planned to do much further research AND work with the animals individually that I wanted to end up mixing before actually attempting a mixed-species enclosure. The purpose of this thread is to gather as much information as possible before trying to start work with specific specimens. Collecting information and gaining experience is something that takes time - therefore I won't be attempting to put together an enclosure any time soon. I am, however, trying to begin the steps towards that ultimate goal, and this thread is one of the major parts of that.

As for those people who suggested I look at other threads, it is always great to view as many resources as possible, but many of the threads I was directed to are simply full of other "DON'T DO IT!" messages or simply have links to another thread that contains nothing but links to another which holds links to another and so on and so on. For once I was hoping to begin a discussion that could avoid these repeated messages and come up with an actual resource of knowledge on the topic.


----------



## Ed

rudukai13 said:


> Philsuma, I made the quoted comment to stress the fact that I hadn't already run out to the store and thrown some animals together in a cage. It was meant to express that I was looking for information and planned to do much further research AND work with the animals individually that I wanted to end up mixing before actually attempting a mixed-species enclosure. The purpose of this thread is to gather as much information as possible before trying to start work with specific specimens. Collecting information and gaining experience is something that takes time - therefore I won't be attempting to put together an enclosure any time soon. I am, however, trying to begin the steps towards that ultimate goal, and this thread is one of the major parts of that.
> 
> As for those people who suggested I look at other threads, it is always great to view as many resources as possible, but many of the threads I was directed to are simply full of other "DON'T DO IT!" messages or simply have links to another thread that contains nothing but links to another which holds links to another and so on and so on. For once I was hoping to begin a discussion that could avoid these repeated messages and come up with an actual resource of knowledge on the topic.


 
I hope this one had a different point of view... 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


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## ChrisK

Or this one that would be a good starting point: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37135-my-first-viv.html


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## tclipse

mantisdragon91 said:


> So what I am hearing then is that we flame first and then stop and bother to see if there is any value to be had from the person's experience. Can't say that benefits the growth of the hobby much. The last Mid-Atlantic meet was held at my house. A number of people were at my house. If they saw anything they found troublesome they are more then wecome to speak up and point it out.
> 
> There is lots of directions people can go with this hobby. Creating beatiful, geographicly correct mixed tanks should be one of them. No one should randomly throw animals together. But no one should flame people just because they don't bother to stop and listed to what they have to say. That is what turns a community into a clique, and in my 25 years of animal keeping experience I an tell you that not much learning or hobby advancement happens in a clique.


No, I'm not one of those people, I don't think you're reading me correctly. If you read the original post I made to the OP, it's clearly not attacking him in any way and is pretty darn reasonable IMO. 

What you're hearing from me personally is that newbies should take the time to *learn first*, keep the planned species for a good amount of time separately, and then make *educated decisions* if they still want to try it out.

I couldn't make it out to that MADS meet, but all I heard were good things. Nobody flamed you because they see your experience and trust that *you have the best interest of the animals in mind*.


----------



## mantisdragon91

tclipse said:


> No, I'm not one of those people, I don't think you're reading me correctly. If you read the original post I made to the OP, it's clearly not attacking him in any way and is pretty darn reasonable IMO.
> 
> What you're hearing from me personally is that newbies should take the time to *learn first*, keep the planned species for a good amount of time separately, and then make *educated decisions* if they still want to try it out.
> 
> I couldn't make it out to that MADS meet, but all I heard were good things. Nobody flamed you because they see your experience and trust that *you have the best interest of the animals in mind*.


Not directed at you either. But believe me I've been flamed plenty... Getting flamed on the other site as we speak And the funniest thing is I'm being flamed over frogs I had almost 25 years ago when I was 18....


----------



## mantisdragon91

ChrisK said:


> Or this one that would be a good starting point: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37135-my-first-viv.html


Thanks Chris. Now I have tank envy


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## edwardsatc

ChrisK said:


> Or this one that would be a good starting point: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37135-my-first-viv.html


Funny, 

His species list:
hyla marmorata
phyllomedusa tomopterna
hyla geographica
hyla luecophyllata
dendrobates azureus
dendrobates imitator

IN HIS FIRST VIV! 

Yet everyone seemed so impressed with the viv, mixing was never mentioned.

Hmmmm......


----------



## ChrisK

edwardsatc said:


> Funny,
> 
> His species list:
> hyla marmorata
> phyllomedusa tomopterna
> hyla geographica
> hyla luecophyllata
> dendrobates azureus
> dendrobates imitator
> 
> IN HIS FIRST VIV!
> 
> Yet everyone seemed so impressed with the viv, mixing was never mentioned.
> 
> Hmmmm......


Because of the size and lack of predation/hybridizing possibilites


----------



## mantisdragon91

ChrisK said:


> Because of the size and lack of predation/hybridizing possibilites


Don't know Chris according to some on the other site all darts can hybridize. last time I checked Auzureus and Imitators are both darts. Not saying I agree just playing devils advocate


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## Roadrunner

Can all darts hybridize? I'm sure the sperm and egg would be compatible considering all the cross species hybrids and in snakes and others cross genus hybrids. Would they court, maybe not. Would a vent or other visit a honeymoon hut in his travels possibly transporting sperm from just breeding, I don't know but the smaller the tank and the longer they are in there the better the possibilities. Esp if an egg eating male visits the hut and eats half a clutch after fertilizing his own clutch. Can't measure the probability but it's definitely a possibility.


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## Baltimore Bryan

I do not think all darts can hybridize, at least not ones from different genuses. All of the hybrids I have heard of were from two related frogs, like terrib x vittatus, leuc x auratus, auratus x tinc, etc. I would imagine that two genuses mating would not result in live offspring because of chromosome mis-match or some other genetic problem (but correct me if I am mistaken.) 
Bryan


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## Roadrunner

corn snakes and kingsnakes. I guess the rhacs are of same genus. Umm, what about leopard geckos and the fat tail geckos? ligers, are they different genus?



Baltimore Bryan said:


> I do not think all darts can hybridize, at least not ones from different genuses. All of the hybrids I have heard of were from two related frogs, like terrib x vittatus, leuc x auratus, auratus x tinc, etc. I would imagine that two genuses mating would not result in live offspring because of chromosome mis-match or some other genetic problem (but correct me if I am mistaken.)
> Bryan


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## Ed

In theory (as I can't find anything supporting or disproving it), it is possible for hybrids between dendrobatid genera to occur however we also cannot take that to mean that they can/do/will occur. 

Normally intergradations between anurans don't normally occur unless they are between very closely related species or use a reproductive mode that could allow for cross reproduction to occur (for example, intergrades between Hyla cinera and Hyla gratiosa are known to occur in the wild, but this is a result of sneaker males clasping anything they can during the breeding melees a different breeding mechanism than seen in dendrobatids.) These hybrids also do not always result in viable offspring. 
These isolation mechanisms have to be taken into consideration when cohousing various species together.. housing species that require similar niche requirements and breeding sites will increase the risk of a hybridization event can occur (for example cohousing auratus and azureus together can allow male or female auratus to act as sneakers and result in mixed parantage clutches.) 
I've used the snake example in the past to indicate that we cannot rule out hybrids based on the frogs being from different genera but that also cannot be taken to mean that it can/will/has happened. The snake example should not also be used to indicate that it will happen as the snakes are of an artificially manipulated origin. The original reproductions did not occur because the two species were housed together but because the male snake was stimulated by courting a receptive female of the same species and the female of the other species was then scented to match the male kingsnake allowing for reproduction to occur. This allowed the barriers for cross-species breeding to be broken. 

In Dendrobatids, we have a wide variety of courtship barriers that have to be broken for cross genera hybrids to occur (for an example of complexity in courtship there is a good representation by E. Zimmerman in Breeding Terrarium Animals; TFH Publications) making it much more unlikely. Could the frogs be stimulated to cross breed.. sure with the judicious application of the appropriate hormones.. but unlikely unless the reproductive cues are similar. (this is assuming that the sperm could penetrate the membrane, chromosome numbers match and several other factors align). 

In more recent literature, it has been shown that (at least some) dendrobatids also have an acute sense of smell which would not be surprising if it also played a part in mate selection... 

As I have noted in other threads, I'm not a big fan of cohousing a lot of dendrobatid species but it is mainly because similar shape and behavior in territioral species is a bigger trigger. 

I also suspect that as was noted above, if seperate genera were able to hybridize we would have heard about it from our colleagues overseas. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

I thought one of the dart books listed which hybrids were possible between some of the more common species. Seems like I read something like that somewhere in one.


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> corn snakes and kingsnakes. I guess the rhacs are of same genus. Umm, what about leopard geckos and the fat tail geckos? ligers, are they different genus?


 
Unless something changed recently lions and tigers are of the same genus...


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## mantisdragon91

frogfarm said:


> corn snakes and kingsnakes. I guess the rhacs are of same genus. Umm, what about leopard geckos and the fat tail geckos?  ligers, are they different genus?


Actually I believe there has been a recent reclassification of Rhacs and they aren't all in the same genus any longer. Bottom line is that there is still much we don't know about how the various species fit together and what would and wouldn't be viable if potentially sterile. Sorry if you got splattered in the flaming war with the wind bag on the other forum. It really wasn't directed towards you.


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## yours

Great article on this very topic by Devin Edmonds, most of which has all ready been touched upon in this thread....but....always in seeking out research, another viewpoint can be helpful! (note the picture which does not belong to him//note also the links at the bottom!)


Amphibian Care >> Mixing Different Species of Reptiles and Amphibians Together





Alex


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## zBrinks

One thing I've noticed about darts that can/will hybridize - they all seem to occupy the same general 'niche' in vivaria (IE terribs and vittatus, tincs and auratus, etc). When mixing species, I aim to utilize species that do not occupy the same niche, in an attempt to make sure that they do not encounter each other very often. I feel that careful attention should be paid as to where the animals are going to spend most of their time, and effort should be put forth to insure that two species (or individuals, in some cases) do not hang out in the same areas.


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## Roadrunner

Yes Ed but internal vs. external fertilization, hence the dragging sperm on a clutch he was eating. I understand the different mating rituals and laying sites. Their ranges/niches though not the same do overlap. Hence the possibility. The kingsnake cornsnake example was that different genus' are compatible, I understand the story behind the crosses as the kings hemipenes wouldn't normally fall into another females oviduct of something they'd normally eat(or vice versa) but in external fertilization it's possible to deposit sperm on an egg mass. All this tells me it's possible and more probable as the # of breeding individuals goes up and the tank size goes down. I didn't say they would "mate" with each other. This is tricolor/thumbnail hybridizing I'm referring to. Although tricolors are some of the best defenders of clutches, (I was going to say imitators and realized they're variabilis and I don't know their tendency towards eating eggs but) imitators are notorious egg eaters and are pretty sneaky.

The reason I thought imitators is because I mixed imitators and tricolors early on and the imitators wasted away quickly and didn't recover when I moved them out of the mixed tank. They always hid because the tricolors were pretty aggressive when feeding and not many ff's made it to the top of the tank. 

Although I agree the size difference and different aggression levels would be more of a problem to their health rather than the possibility of hybridization.





Ed said:


> In theory (as I can't find anything supporting or disproving it), it is possible for hybrids between dendrobatid genera to occur however we also cannot take that to mean that they can/do/will occur.
> 
> Normally intergradations between anurans don't normally occur unless they are between very closely related species or use a reproductive mode that could allow for cross reproduction to occur (for example, intergrades between Hyla cinera and Hyla gratiosa are known to occur in the wild, but this is a result of sneaker males clasping anything they can during the breeding melees a different breeding mechanism than seen in dendrobatids.) These hybrids also do not always result in viable offspring.
> These isolation mechanisms have to be taken into consideration when cohousing various species together.. housing species that require similar niche requirements and breeding sites will increase the risk of a hybridization event can occur (for example cohousing auratus and azureus together can allow male or female auratus to act as sneakers and result in mixed parantage clutches.)
> I've used the snake example in the past to indicate that we cannot rule out hybrids based on the frogs being from different genera but that also cannot be taken to mean that it can/will/has happened. The snake example should not also be used to indicate that it will happen as the snakes are of an artificially manipulated origin. The original reproductions did not occur because the two species were housed together but because the male snake was stimulated by courting a receptive female of the same species and the female of the other species was then scented to match the male kingsnake allowing for reproduction to occur. This allowed the barriers for cross-species breeding to be broken.
> 
> In Dendrobatids, we have a wide variety of courtship barriers that have to be broken for cross genera hybrids to occur (for an example of complexity in courtship there is a good representation by E. Zimmerman in Breeding Terrarium Animals; TFH Publications) making it much more unlikely. Could the frogs be stimulated to cross breed.. sure with the judicious application of the appropriate hormones.. but unlikely unless the reproductive cues are similar. (this is assuming that the sperm could penetrate the membrane, chromosome numbers match and several other factors align).
> 
> In more recent literature, it has been shown that (at least some) dendrobatids also have an acute sense of smell which would not be surprising if it also played a part in mate selection...
> 
> As I have noted in other threads, I'm not a big fan of cohousing a lot of dendrobatid species but it is mainly because similar shape and behavior in territioral species is a bigger trigger.
> 
> I also suspect that as was noted above, if seperate genera were able to hybridize we would have heard about it from our colleagues overseas.
> 
> Ed


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## Roadrunner

Thanks, didn't want to take the time to look it up.


Ed said:


> Unless something changed recently lions and tigers are of the same genus...


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## Ed

Lets consider the scenario of residual sperm hypothesis..

1) the portions of the male likely to be in touch with the newly deposited egg mass with the sperm.. feet, possibly lower sections of the legs, a small section of the abdominal area and the cloaca region (there are good pictures of the postures during oviposition and fertilization and it is very upright). The egg mass hasn't hydrated up yet so it doesn't have as much "height" as it would later. 

2) these are the portions of the frog that are also going to be in frequent contact with the substrate or other obstacles when moving about the enclosure. 

3) there are likely to be water droplets in the enclosure that can be encountered by the frog 

4) the frog needs to take as direct a path as possible 

5) the frog also needs to avoid the male guarding the clutch, to access the clutch 

So
1) the sperm must stick to the male in some fashion (even though the male is moist, we don't know if it causes sperm to stick...)
2) It would have to be activated which only occurs if the sperm spends at least 5 minutes in the egg jelly (this would require the sperm leaving the egg jelly and sticking to the male) (see Egg Water from the Amphibian Bufo arenarum Modulates the Ability of Homologous Sperm to Undergo the Acrosome Reaction in the Presence of the Vitelline Envelope ? Biology of Reproduction) 
3) the sperm must adhere sufficiently to not be rubbed off on various items during the frog's movements 
4) The sperm must not be washed off by any encountered water droplets or wet surfaces in the enclosure
5) the less direct a path, the frog takes the greater the risk from 3 and 4. 
6) interactions with a clutch guarding male could result in the loss of any sperm due to wrestling, and/or delay (rubbing on substrate or encountering wet surfaces).
7) the sperm would still have to be viable after exposure to these conditions as well as the length of time. (optimum is around 30 minutes.. but up to several hours theoretically possible)
8) it would have to be able to penetrate the egg and fertilize it. This has to occur before the jelly has swollen, this means the male needs to be in the clutch within about 30 minutes. (see for example the descriptions here for artificial fertilization http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/66/1/22.pdf) 

Some thoughts.. 
Ed


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## Roadrunner

The sperm would be activated in the egg water of the initial copulation and then would just have to be deposited on the egg mass during egg eating so I see no problems. Interesting read as i didn't know it had to be activated in a diffusible part of the jelly coat. Does this hold true for all frogs?

Just the same thoughts that it is possible and gets more probable as tank size goes down and # of egg clutches and male frogs go up. Said it was possible, not that it was going to occur at a hi rate or at all.
I already thought of all those things when making my statement. Just not the amount of time sperm was active and that it needed to be activated. And 5-8 minutes of wriggling can make quite a mess And what 2 activities have very similar motions? A male fertilizing eggs and a male eating eggs. A typical tricolor clutch would probably be more than a thumb could eat. If he was wallowing in it to get the eggs down it is possible to rub sperm off esp if your tank is not sopping wet and a pair behind a leaf descends directly to a honeymoon hut for a meal.
Thoughts?


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> The sperm would be activated in the egg water of the initial copulation and then would just have to be deposited on the egg mass during egg eating so I see no problems. Interesting read as i didn't know it had to be activated in a diffusible part of the jelly coat. Does this hold true for all frogs?
> 
> Just the same thoughts that it is possible and gets more probable as tank size goes down and # of egg clutches and male frogs go up. Said it was possible, not that it was going to occur at a hi rate or at all.
> I already thought of all those things when making my statement. Just not the amount of time sperm was active and that it needed to be activated. And 5-8 minutes of wriggling can make quite a mess And what 2 activities have very similar motions? A male fertilizing eggs and a male eating eggs. A typical tricolor clutch would probably be more than a thumb could eat. If he was wallowing in it to get the eggs down it is possible to rub sperm off esp if your tank is not sopping wet and a pair behind a leaf descends directly to a honeymoon hut for a meal.
> Thoughts?


It appears to be consistent with a number of genera. That was one of the few full free pdf I could find. 

Your scenario of wrigging around in the jelly already indicates that the time line in which fertilzation can occur has already passed (as the jelly has swollen). 

Ed


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## earthfrog

Ed said:


> It appears to be consistent with a number of genera. That was one of the few full free pdf I could find.
> 
> Your scenario of wrigging around in the jelly already indicates that the time line in which fertilzation can occur has already passed (as the jelly has swollen).
> 
> Ed


I think there may be occasions where the sperm takes more than a couple days to reach the egg, even if one or more were fertilized eariler---I have observed this in my nominant imi egg clutches. I had a pair of eggs that were clearly fertilized days apart based on the development. Note that imi eggs are usually laid in pairs or groups of four. This was a pair of eggs laid at the same time. 

It's either this, or the frogs laid and fertilized another egg later on and cemented it to the previous one---but it's my understanding that the original clutches are glued to each other, and new clutches are laid in new locations...


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## Chris Miller

earthfrog said:


> I think there may be occasions where the sperm takes more than a couple days to reach the egg, even if one or more were fertilized eariler---I have observed this in my nominant imi egg clutches. I had a pair of eggs that were clearly fertilized days apart based on the development. Note that imi eggs are usually laid in pairs or groups of four. This was a pair of eggs laid at the same time.
> 
> It's either this, or the frogs laid and fertilized another egg later on and cemented it to the previous one---but it's my understanding that the original clutches are glued to each other, and new clutches are laid in new locations...


This should probably get split out from this thread but:

Male imitator generally deposit sperm before the eggs are laid, so it was most likely a case of a new clutch getting laid near an old one. I've had this happen many times.

sorry for the hijack


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## Roadrunner

I indicated wriggling in the jelly of the clutch he fertilized and then wriggling in a freshly laid clutch while eating. Just because the jelly swells doesn't mean the fertilization window is closed does it? I only saw a close for the activation period of the sperm of over 8 or less than 5 minutes, not a fertilization window. And how much of this info is going to transfer from a toad in drier conditions to a dendrobate in the rainforest. You'd have to come up w/ closer analysis in genera for me to believe it can't happen.
Besides, while he's wriggling in jelly he could be removing the coat enough to slip sperm in on his leg, no?

I'm getting Michelle's login info for springerlink, so feel free to reference anything there.



Ed said:


> It appears to be consistent with a number of genera. That was one of the few full free pdf I could find.
> 
> Your scenario of wrigging around in the jelly already indicates that the time line in which fertilzation can occur has already passed (as the jelly has swollen).
> 
> Ed


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## Roadrunner

I may have spoke too soon on springerlink as it has to go thru school's computers and if they charge for views I wouldn't feel right accessing for debates here. 

So, if imitators lay sperm down first I take it the ew would then activate the sperm after the male left and before the jelly swelled? That is if dendrobates need the same ew activation process. Then the sperm transported would just have to be rubbed off where the tricolors were about to lay and the sperm would then be activated by the ew of the clutch laid over it. I just don't understand how the sperm gets out of the ew to fertilize the egg w/in that 3 minute window before being deactivated by too long exposure to the ew.



frogfarm said:


> I indicated wriggling in the jelly of the clutch he fertilized and then wriggling in a freshly laid clutch while eating. Just because the jelly swells doesn't mean the fertilization window is closed does it? I only saw a close for the activation period of the sperm of over 8 or less than 5 minutes, not a fertilization window. And how much of this info is going to transfer from a toad in drier conditions to a dendrobate in the rainforest. You'd have to come up w/ closer analysis in genera for me to believe it can't happen.
> Besides, while he's wriggling in jelly he could be removing the coat enough to slip sperm in on his leg, no?
> 
> I'm getting Michelle's login info for springerlink, so feel free to reference anything there.


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> I indicated wriggling in the jelly of the clutch he fertilized and then wriggling in a freshly laid clutch while eating. Just because the jelly swells doesn't mean the fertilization window is closed does it? I only saw a close for the activation period of the sperm of over 8 or less than 5 minutes, not a fertilization window. And how much of this info is going to transfer from a toad in drier conditions to a dendrobate in the rainforest. You'd have to come up w/ closer analysis in genera for me to believe it can't happen.
> Besides, while he's wriggling in jelly he could be removing the coat enough to slip sperm in on his leg, no?
> 
> I'm getting Michelle's login info for springerlink, so feel free to reference anything there.


Hi Aaron,

I want to reiterate what I said in starting post 132


> In theory (as I can't find anything supporting or disproving it), it is possible for hybrids between dendrobatid genera to occur however we also cannot take that to mean that they can/do/will occur.


I have not taken a position as to whether it can or can't in the end as I'm still open to counter arguments. If you can find proof that my arguments is incorrect please feel free to post it (and I would be interested in data that more genera specific). 

The reference to the time line before jelly swelling and fertilization is in the second reference in post #140. If one stops to think about it, this actually makes evolutionary sense as it prevents other males from competing for fertilization by simply waiting for the chosen male to leave... This helps assure mate choice by the female as well as the male. Many taxa have evolved different methods of preventing this sort of sneaker male behavior (and there are methods employed by both females and males to prevent disruption of mate choice)... 

The problem is that with each conditional caveat towards allowing it to happen, the scenario becomes more and more implausible.... 

Ed


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## mantisdragon91

Ed said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I want to reiterate what I said in starting post 132
> 
> I have not taken a position as to whether it can or can't in the end as I'm still open to counter arguments. If you can find proof that my arguments is incorrect please feel free to post it (and I would be interested in data that more genera specific).
> 
> The reference to the time line before jelly swelling and fertilization is in the second reference in post #140. If one stops to think about it, this actually makes evolutionary sense as it prevents other males from competing for fertilization by simply waiting for the chosen male to leave... This helps assure mate choice by the female as well as the male. Many taxa have evolved different methods of preventing this sort of sneaker male behavior (and there are methods employed by both females and males to prevent disruption of mate choice)...
> 
> The problem is that with each conditional caveat towards allowing it to happen, the scenario becomes more and more implausible....
> 
> Ed



Ed,

Correct my ignorance if I am wrong but isn't this similar to some of the conditional caveats in place to restrict Great Rift Lake Cichlids from hybridizing since there is such a great density of similar species within a relatively finite space?


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## Ed

mantisdragon91 said:


> Ed,
> 
> Correct my ignorance if I am wrong but isn't this similar to some of the conditional caveats in place to restrict Great Rift Lake Cichlids from hybridizing since there is such a great density of similar species within a relatively finite space?


Hi Roman,

I honestly can't say as I'm not up on the behaviors etc that are in place for that group of cichlids. I've never been into those fish, so my knowledge of them outside of some very basic information is lacking. 

Ed


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## frankpayne32

Only read the first two pages of this thread as it started to fill up with the same back and forth on "mixing" that always happens. With that in mind, this post is primarily for the OP. Here is our tropical new world exhibit:




























These are its inhabitants:
-1 emerald tree boa
-3 eyelash vipers
-12 darts (tincs, auratus, vittatus, leucomelas)

This exhibit has been up and running for several years with zero animal mortality.

Problems with this exhibit and how we've solved them:
1. The snakes (especially the eyelash) will occasionally strike at the frogs. We've never lost a frog from a snake though (or for any other reason) in this enclosure. However, frog mortality from a snake is always a possibility.
2. The frogs are in greater competition than they would be in a smaller population density. We feed them much more than is necessary in smaller densities.
3. All snakes can be trained to eat frozen-thawed rodents. We never use live rodents.
4. Adult emeralds will crush plants. We rotate a new young emerald in as the previous one gets heavier.
5. Waste. We clean it daily.
6. Hybridization of dart frog morphs/species. We destroy all fertilized eggs unless it is obviously not a hybrid clutch (the vittatus).

My main point is it works if you know what you're doing but is not for the inexperienced. This is my favorite exhibit at the zoo. Second point is that these types of enclosures are for our benefit (displays) and not the animals and while acceptable are not always ideal for the animals being kept. But, I would also argue that everyone that keeps reptiles and amphibians as pets is keeping them for their own benefit and not the animals.


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## Ed

frankpayne32 said:


> Second point is that these types of enclosures are for our benefit (displays) and not the animals and while acceptable are not always ideal for the animals being kept. But, I would also argue that everyone that keeps reptiles and amphibians as pets is keeping them for their own benefit and not the animals. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> And I would argue that not all multispecies exhibits have to be less than ideal for the animals kept if done properly.
> 
> Ed


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## rudukai13

Frank, thank you for the information and pictures! Is there anymore you can state about the enclosure conditions? Temps/humidity, dimension, etc.?


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## Roadrunner

That is, if the scenerios you put up are true, which I haven't been convinced of yet(nor would anyone peer reviewing a paper stating such). I have nothing else to add as I've(and you) proved my point, it can happen(or it's not proven that it can't). Esp considering tricolors and imitators will lay on the same leaf surfaces.
If you haven't proven it can't be done, anything is possible.



Ed said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I want to reiterate what I said in starting post 132
> 
> I have not taken a position as to whether it can or can't in the end as I'm still open to counter arguments. If you can find proof that my arguments is incorrect please feel free to post it (and I would be interested in data that more genera specific).
> 
> The reference to the time line before jelly swelling and fertilization is in the second reference in post #140. If one stops to think about it, this actually makes evolutionary sense as it prevents other males from competing for fertilization by simply waiting for the chosen male to leave... This helps assure mate choice by the female as well as the male. Many taxa have evolved different methods of preventing this sort of sneaker male behavior (and there are methods employed by both females and males to prevent disruption of mate choice)...
> 
> The problem is that with each conditional caveat towards allowing it to happen, the scenario becomes more and more implausible....
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

It isn't proven that it can or cannot, this is different than saying it can/could/would happen... as I noted the scenario is very implausible based on the criteria that the sperm would have to overcome and remain viable. 

Did you ever see this episode of mythbusters where they looked at this piece of folklore? http://www.suite101.com/content/famous-minie-ball-pregnancy-a15052 
Ed


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## Roadrunner

I edited that as you were writing/editing.

I like the anythings possible until it's proven not to be attitude.


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## Roadrunner

Ed, if I open that up it's not going to be getting pregnant by a toilet seat is it?

OMG, even worse. rofl! You at least have to start w/ a plausible theory.


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Ed, if I open that up it's not going to be getting pregnant by a toilet seat is it?


 
No it is much different.... 

Ed


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## Jellyman

Can we please get frogfarm and ed's posts split to another thread. They are not part of this thread's topic. Good stuff but it is hijacking the intent of this thread.

Thanks


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## Roadrunner

Typical Ed, you can't disprove a theory so you try to ridicule your opponents ideas so everyone will believe your side. I'm glad this site has an ignore list



Ed said:


> No it is much different....
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Typical Ed, you can't disprove a theory so you try to ridicule your opponents ideas so everyone will believe your side. I'm glad this site has an ignore list


Now you have me confused... I was commenting that it was different than getting pregnent by a toilet seat. If you think that is ridiculing you, then so be it. 

Ed


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## frankpayne32

Ed said:


> frankpayne32 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Second point is that these types of enclosures are for our benefit (displays) and not the animals and while acceptable are not always ideal for the animals being kept. But, I would also argue that everyone that keeps reptiles and amphibians as pets is keeping them for their own benefit and not the animals. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> And I would argue that not all multispecies exhibits have to be less than ideal for the animals kept if done properly.
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely, and that is why I specifically said "not always" meaning that they could be either ideal or not.
Click to expand...


----------

