# Bummer!



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Picked up a sexed adult pair of Azureus last weekend from LLL reptile, and sent in fecals to be examined by Dr. Frye, and they came back with Coccidia. I'm really disappointed, but very glad I quarantine all new purchases. The shop won't give me a refund even though I bought them 5 days ago, but they're going to buy them back for wholesale. I don't know really whether to be pleased that I'm getting some money back or upset that they're knowingly buying frogs for resale that have Coccidia.


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

Why don't you just med. them, and keep them?
ADAM


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm sure you're aware that Coccidia isn't curable in darts, and several types of it are fatal. I really don't feel like owning frogs, especially breeding adults, that carry that kind of disease burden. And I certainly don't want to take the chance of introducing that to the rest of my collection that are all completely healthy.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2005)

This is horrible. Are they wanting the frogs back to test themselves or for resale? If they want them back for resale then we as hobbiest need to take action and let other people know. Either way they should give you a full refund. This attitude pisses me off. You should post this on every forum you know.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I wonder, if this purchase was made via Charge Card, if a case could be made for purchasing a "defective product" and asking the credit card company to reverse the charges?

s


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

If these frogs have it, their whole collection might be infected. This is another instance where a fecal exam has saved an entire collection and these aren’t even W/C or Farmed. What concerns me the most is that they want the frogs back. The frogs should be destroyed or sent to a lab for studies. Sorry about your loss. Call your credit card company and try to get the charges reversed and report them to the better business bureau. 

-Blake


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## RSines (Feb 15, 2004)

Scott, you may have something there. I feel the same way Ben does. This really pisses me off. 

-Richard


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

Well I thankfully have never had coccidia in my darts but I think that coccidia may be treatable in darts. Walker and Whitaker (Dr from NAIB) post the use of this drug in their therapeutics for use in amphibians. They use the same treatment in cats and dogs as they do in amphibians. Trimethoprim/sulfamethozalone can be given orally every day to every other day for up to 3 weeks. I have never talked to the dr. frye about this matter but i remember reading a post on kingsnake in which rich frye posted to check with the vet and he thought to treat every other day...or something along those lines. Coccidia can burden a frog tremendously but I would check with dr. frye again because the trimeth-sulfa may be an option for you. Hope this helps.

Ryan


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

They bought the frogs back from me for half of what I had paid. They have a policy of not refunding purchases of amphibians, but I think these can be considered pretty extenuating circumstances. I'm going to wait a few days and see if they go back up for sale in the shop. If so, I'll be filing a complaint with the BBB, and I'll definitely be posting this elsewhere.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/fro ... row-frogs/

They still are offering pairs. It is going to be hard to tell if they are yours.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

They only had one pair available, so that's them.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Dane, I am so sorry to hear that. Let me see if I understand this, you bought diseased frogs for a retail price, but they are offering to take them back for wholesale as if they were buying them from you initially????
You would think that they would offer your money back and then some just to try to get you to keep your mouth shut. Man that is bad, Scott has a good recommendation, give it a try. But it does not always work. Luckily as Blake said you had them tested, because there are still a lot of people who do not. 

Ryan, Wright and Whitaker (Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) post that the animals treated with Trimethoprim sulfamethozalone daily for 7 - 14 days improved clinically but the infection was still found on subsequent necropsy. My book is over a year old so maybe some more progress has been made with this treatment since then. I thought that once an animal was infected they could be treated but it never went away, plus the enclosure was contaminated and had to be disinfected with a bleach solution. Basically I thought once you got it in your collection the animals were done, and the primary concern was stopping it from hitting the rest of you frogs, but again I could be wrong. 
Ed


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Correct, I knew before testing them that there was no cure, just treatment, and Dr. Frye confirmed that over the phone to me.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Ed and Dane-

I believe what Ryan said was that " coccidia may be treatable in darts," and it is. There is a difference between treatable and curable. The drugs listed will suppress the Coccidia but not cure it. I have unfortunately dealt with this parasite in the past with chameleons. It is contagious, and measures should be kept not to infect others, however in treating, I was able to suppress symptoms enough so that the chameleon actually lived out a normal life cycle. Just wanted to clear things up..Ryan can correct me if I am wrong. Unfortunately I bet you if everyone ran fecals on their frogs they would be surprised to find that many may harbor parasites. They can come in on food items, soil from plants, the plants themselves, and from imported frogs. I would be a bit upset as well, but honestly am surprised that they even bought the frogs back. I had a negative transaction with a company in CA who actually sent me the wrong chameleons and they refused to do anything ( I had my credit card put a stop payment and things turned out in my favor)...Good Luck!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That is what Dane should be doing - assuming it was a credit card trx.

s


AQUAMAC said:


> ... I had a negative transaction with a company in CA who actually sent me the wrong chameleons and they refused to do anything ( I had my credit card put a stop payment and things turned out in my favor)...Good Luck!


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

It was done on credit card, however I've already sold them back, so I'm not sure if that would be a feasible option anymore.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

...


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Yes, LLL is a Ca. based retail store, both of their locations are about 20 min from me, and I will certainly be pursuing this further. I wasn't aware that there was an actual criminal code in place to prevent this kind of thing, but that's major ammunition I can use. Hopefully I'll have time this weekend to stop by and see if the frogs have gone up for resale. I'm sure I'm just as upset about this as anyone. With the possibilty of potential transferrence to the rest of my collection from wandering fruit flies, I'm going to have to flush 3 vent tads that had dead flies in their cups, and get everything screened individually for Coccidia in a few weeks.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Geez! Yet another reason to get you're whole collection checked...so you don't get sued, or fined!


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

I believe that parasite loads and other junk that is found in our collections is the hobbies dirty little secret ! I have been testing all of my collection for a few weeks and I'm rather displeased w/ the results . I keep a uber clean frog room and wash between tanks ect.. Almost all have somthing !! 
Alot of frogs have been purchased from rather big breeders and guess what , they all have somthing . To say the least I 'm shocked ! I believe that as hobbiest that we start to demand tests on all purchases . But that is a pipe dream . I personally know of lots of keepers that really do not want to know and believe that a breeding happy frog is a good one . But would you as a responcible hobbiest pass on a frog to another if you know that somthing is wrong w/ the frog . As for that reason we a stuards of these rare spiecies should do what we can to insure overall health and not pass it on to others or atleast inform them of the negitive impact that could possibly be spred to their collection. 
Quarantten procedures are fine and compleatly nessary but I think a responcible breeder should be informed and inform the buyers . 
I really fear a backlash from saying that my own collection has but is being treated for parasites but in the future I will test treat all frogs leaving my room bound for others or at the very least inform . 
Other breeders will probally think that I am going a little over kill but woulden't you be pissed if what happened to Dane happend to you ?The sad fact is it probally has you just don't know it yet ! 
Dr. Frye just tryed to point this out a year or so ago and look what happened to him . If we demand that our frogs are tested and sick frogs are not cycled throughout we will inturn raise the standards to a new level . I believe it would be for the positive for us and husbandry our practices .
Thoughts ? 
Darren Meyer


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Darren-

All I can say is I agree with you 110%. We spoke with one of the head vet at the Baltimore Aquarium and she said the EXACT same thing you did. I think people would be very surprised if they had accurate fecals run on their entire collection what they would find. I think its not spoken about much because quite frankly what frog breeder would advertise that he/she has parasites in the collection??

-Mike


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*I disagree...*

Darren & Mike,

I disagree with you regarding this issue being the hobby's dirty little secret. This hobby is still in it's infancy. It is a fact there are few, if any published protocols on the medicating of Dendrobates! Articles cited by myself and others refer to amphibians in general. 

In addition, if people are no longer on this forum to defend their position, it is not because members were upset by their positions and forced them out. They are no longer on this forum because they were banned for repeatedly abusing the rules and harrassment of other members on this board, period! No ifs, ands or buts! 

Melissa








Darren Meyer said:


> Quarantten procedures are fine and compleatly nessary but I think a responcible breeder should be informed and inform the buyers .
> I really fear a backlash from saying that my own collection has but is being treated for parasites but in the future I will test treat all frogs leaving my room bound for others or at the very least inform .
> Other breeders will probally think that I am going a little over kill but woulden't you be pissed if what happened to Dane happend to you ?The sad fact is it probally has you just don't know it yet !
> Dr. Frye just tryed to point this out a year or so ago and look what happened to him . If we demand that our frogs are tested and sick frogs are not cycled throughout we will inturn raise the standards to a new level . I believe it would be for the positive for us and husbandry our practices .
> ...


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

O k Melissa I really don't mind that you diagree . You state that the hobby is still in it's infancy, I agree . So then why is it so hard to come to realize that drastic changes need and should be updated to better the keeping of these frogs . 
All that I am proposing is that we inform others when making a purchase that they have either been treated or if not let them know what pathogens they harbor ? Is that so wrong ? Do you really believe that our hobby of frog loving people woulden't know the difference ? I feel as though it is the responsibility as breeders and keepers we insure and promote healthy captive breeding and pass that kind of specialized care to others who chose to have their frogs kept to that standard 
I for one will ! If you chose not to that is your choice , I'm just doing what I feel is nessasarry in a moral way . Woulden't you like to know exactly what a frog has before you ever let it into your collection ? And if you chose not to treat said frog , if there is a problem w/ said frog you would already know whats up and chose to treat or not .
What it involves is change in our practices , dealings ,and oh $$$ Yes it would cost more to buy a frog that has had a fecal ,but like many I have paid 150 for a frog to insure a healthy 150 frog I myself would gladly pay 170 . 
Only time will tell .
Darren


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Darren,

I am glad you agree that the hobby is still in it's infancy. 

Say that you have had your frogs diagnosed with the xname parasite. Since no published, peer reviewed studies have been done to treat this parasite (or any other) in Dendrobates, how do you make an educated decision regarding what treatment protocol to use?

Another way to look at this Darren, if you give a medication to any animal that will kill off all parasites or other bacteria you will be killing all the good & bad nasties in your animals as well. 

I am sorry I can not elaborate any more, I am a bit under the weather. I think there is another discussion on frognet about this topic.

Melis




Darren Meyer said:


> O k Melissa I really don't mind that you diagree . You state that the hobby is still in it's infancy, I agree . So then why is it so hard to come to realize that drastic changes need and should be updated to better the keeping of these frogs .
> All that I am proposing is that we inform others when making a purchase that they have either been treated or if not let them know what pathogens they harbor ? Is that so wrong ? Do you really believe that our hobby of frog loving people woulden't know the difference ? I feel as though it is the responsibility as breeders and keepers we insure and promote healthy captive breeding and pass that kind of specialized care to others who chose to have their frogs kept to that standard
> I for one will ! If you chose not to that is your choice , I'm just doing what I feel is nessasarry in a moral way . Woulden't you like to know exactly what a frog has before you ever let it into your collection ? And if you chose not to treat said frog , if there is a problem w/ said frog you would already know whats up and chose to treat or not .
> What it involves is change in our practices , dealings ,and oh $$$ Yes it would cost more to buy a frog that has had a fecal ,but like many I have paid 150 for a frog to insure a healthy 150 frog I myself would gladly pay 170 .
> ...


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2857

If anyone has questions feel free to PM myself or Joe. I just do not want to see false rumors going around.


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

Actually no, I didn't know that. 
Thanks for the info :? 
ADAM




> I'm sure you're aware that Coccidia isn't curable in darts, and several types of it are fatal. I really don't feel like owning frogs, especially breeding adults, that carry that kind of disease burden. And I certainly don't want to take the chance of introducing that to the rest of my collection that are all completely healthy.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2005)

for those in the know can you explain what Coccidia is. whta it does in dart frogs? if it is curable? 

thanks im a complete nob when it comes to diseases


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Melissa-

I will have to politely disagree with you. While I agree that the hobby is in its beginning stages here in the US, it is more developed elsewhere. More and more is published on amphibian medicine each year and I am happy with that. I would love to rebut my statement with examples of several BIG names breeders that I have purchased from, only to have fecals run on them and to find nasty parasite loads or bacterial problems. These frogs were kept in quarantine and fecals were run the first week so there wasn't much chance of them being picked up on my end. I think you would be very surprised to see some of my result but I will not slander anyone on this site. Sorry but I am speaking from experience on with the "dirty little secret"..wish I weren't. As for Dr. Frye, Ryan and I have had a good experience with him and his brother so I have no complaints there.

Best,
Mike


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

Coming from a medical and ecology based background, I have to say that I’m pretty comfortable and happy with the information published on amphibian medicine. It is true that there are very few peer reviewed publications on dendrobates themselves. However, I don’t think this makes the information that we do know any less pertinent. 

As many people have stated, the hobby is in its infancy, at least here in the US. However, I don’t think that Pfizer or Merck are getting together a research team at this time to investigate the uses and triumphs of what medications directly treat and cure Dendrobates. This is a new hobby and look at dendroboard which has about 800 members (I know there are more out there as well). The only thing is this that the hobby doesn’t warrant this type of material at this time. Believe me, I would love to have more information on this matter. The truth though, is that there isn’t enough of a need or moneys to conduct such research. Not to mention on every single species of dart frog. 

Ill just give some examples of broad spectrum use. We can use ivermectin in out frogs for parasitic infections of lungworms. Ivermectin is labeled for use only in cattle, swine, and livestock. If your dog came down with mange, mostly likely the veterinarian will use ivermectin. However, this is an off label use because not all dogs can take ivermectin. Shelties can become compromised by this medication and this is the reason why it’s not on the market for use in dogs. Why do we use it in dogs then? Because we know it works and the biological pathways and synthesis are similar enough that we can fully treat mange with ivermectin. This is the same idea in our frogs. Most medication you see published was formulated for cats, dogs, cattle, etc. Even though this is the case, these medications are the ones we use in our amphibian medicine protocols. I just think that just because there are no direct protocols for dendrobates, that the research already provided for amphibians isn’t legit or relevant. I am very comfortable with the published data because I understand the mechanism of action of these drugs and for the most part they will be similar in all amphibians (for the most part! Not in all cases). 

I’ll give another example. Our hobby is in its infancy. The aquarium hobby has been around for much longer. Today, there are many drugs on the market to treat tropical fish diseases, many you can get at the pet store. I sincerely doubt that they tested every genus to make sure that the medication worked. You have butterflyfish, parrotfish, anemone fish, and triggerfish to name a few. All of these are from a different genus but yet their treatments are exactly the same. So a medication may have been tested on hyla. This is a different genus but isn’t the information gathered just as relevant to dendrobates. The former example shows that similar results will be seen in different genus. 

I am happy with the route that this hobby is taking. I don’t believe that anytime soon anyone is going to see the dendrobates bible to medications. It’s just not going to happen in the near future. I’m comfortable with information that is out there so I don’t agree with waiting until something is published in order to use these medications and keep healthier collections. Like others have said, I think some people would be surprised at what their frogs may be harboring. The most meticulous person could find parasites or other infections. Now I want more information on this topic just like everyone else but I’m not going to let my frogs be sick until that gets published. I’m also not saying to go out buy levamisole and baytil and systematically treat your whole collection. I just think that the hobby itself in the near future will determine what works and what doesn’t. Like people have said before it’s our responsibility to customers or for the future of this hobby, to provide healthy animals. I just think that people need to be educated on this topic and not be afraid to use some medications just because D. azureus wasn’t the sample subject. I know that if we get a ny/nj group going this is definitely going to be a topic. If the hobby understands the use, mechanisms, and dosing of these medications I think we will all have healthier collections. It just takes some time to educate ourselves and take the necessary steps to get to our end goal.

Ryan


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