# Frogs and vertical space -- ideas and pics



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

One way to address the captive needs of dart frogs is to design our relatively (to the wild, that is) tiny enclosures so that the frogs can use as much space as possible. 

By "use as much space as possible" I mean to make all surface area usable (so minimizing surfaces that frogs don't tend to travel on, like water, some mosses, other untraversable plants, sharp rocks, and the like), _and_ to make as much surface area as is reasonable in a given volume.

Our vivs have a footprint that is itself fairly simple to make usable for frogs. Our vivs also have vertical sides that are slightly more challenging to make usable. The most difficult space to make use of is, well, the space -- the majority of the viv that is not surface, and at best has plants growing into it, and at worst is simply air (nothing wrong with air, of course, but we're talking about usable surfaces here).

I'd like us to share our ideas and pictures for making maximum use of vertical space -- sides, background, and open air -- in our vivs. With permission, I'll start off with pics from @fishingguy12345, who got me started thinking about this aspect of care.



fishingguy12345 said:


> Here are some pictures of other tanks I've made that have a "second story" area:
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Fairly simple, and the ledges add (guessing here) 1/4 or 1/3 to the useable horizontal surfaces in the viv. They look to me to be cork, which IME is a great surface for frogs -- they seem to navigate it very well. It looks good in a viv too, I think.

What have all of you done, or wanted to do, or tried to do and failed, to make better use of vertical space in vivs?


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

One of the easiest ways to maximize space (especially for terrestrial frogs) is to slope your substrate. A completely flat substrate provides the least surface for a frog. A substrate that slopes in one direction provides more and a substrate that slopes in 2 directions is better still. So for example a 1 direction slope would likely involve the back being built up and sloping towards the front. A 2 direction slope would involve one corner built up and sloping away towards the other corners. Given the size of most vivariums that is about the max we can expect. But in vivariums that are 36" long or longer it becomes possible to build 2 hills and slope substrate in 4 directions.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

I've done terraces leading up to the background, and also coming in from the sides. Basically the front-center of the viv is the low point, and the ground rises - mostly stepping, not much sloping - to the left, right, and back.

Cork or stone can serve for simple terraces. However, I've been happy making mine from foam and covering that in epoxy. These foam "cliff-bands" also serve as independent planters if you like - each can be drilled & drained - by carrying the foam all the way down to the glass bottom (to which the foam may be siliconed). Or, you can install your egg crate or Matala over a unitary/solitary drain field, and then carry the foam down to the screen.

The foam "cliff-bands" can be sized and shaped to suit animal athleticism. One nice thing about them is they can be made quite thin - an inch wide is fine - and you can really do any height you like, even varying the rim's height quite a bit, with little spires and whatnot. So the cliffs don't need to occupy a lot of your actual surface area, or to rob you of substrate volume. Conversely, you can make them thicker and carve lots of surface texture into the (making them easier to climb, perhaps). 

You can use these little "planters" to restrict root volume and thereby "bonsai" some things that would like to get much bigger than, uh, you might prefer. I've got a little _Pachira_ tree in a 36x18x36 that I'm giving this business. If this guy had access to a full-dimension drainage layer I'd lose the battle, but since he's effectively in a little pot I may just be able to keep him a little runt.

Anyway - another way to skin the cat. Maybe this'll give somebody something fun to play with. Works great for me.

cheers


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Another one of mine, also cork used to make the ramp









And a side wall (the frog literally hopped off the wall when I opened the door for the picture)


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

jgragg said:


> I've done terraces leading up to the background, and also coming in from the sides. Basically the front-center of the viv is the low point, and the ground rises - mostly stepping, not much sloping - to the left, right, and back.
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Can you show some examples of the cliff bands, please? I'm very poor at translating words into a mental image


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Can you show some examples of the cliff bands, please?


Eh, I'd text you pics, no sweat. But for whatever reason, I'm not really a fan of posting images online. But, try to imagine a concentric series of 2-3 rings. As you work inward, they rise a few inches apiece; the central ring is the tallest. Now, imagine slicing straight down - plumb - with 2 blades, centered over the void in the middle of the tallest ring, each blade being at 90 degrees to the other. Now, with 4 sets of quarter-rings, you've got the raw material for doing 2 vivs in the "front & center is the low ground" mode. Make sense? 

You can also reverse the topography altogether, and put the tallest stuff in the center-rear. That works too - better in narrow tall tanks, actually. But you wouldn't build quarter-rounds, you'd build half-rounds of "cliff".

At a minimum, you can just do a bi-level tank, with just a single "cliff" going straight across the viv. (Or I guess you could go more diagonal or wavy with it - though I never yet have.) 

If you stick the "cliff" way near the back, you can just use its catchment area as the drain field for a recirculating drip wall. You could fill your flat little void with LECA, Turface, Matala, or whatever, maybe top that with screen & a thin bit of leaf litter or bark chips if you wanted. 
If you stick the "cliff" way up near the front, you're approximating a substrate dam, that's really only there to keep the dirt and crap out of your Euro- or semi-Euro-style front vent. 
And if you stick it near the middle, maybe you could plant the front with a low-growing shade lover and the back with something a little taller that likes more light. 
Does that all make sense?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I think I can picture what you're saying.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Cool. Mostly I'm pretty normal. With innerwebs visual-data privacy I'm a little freaky. Anyway - give it a whirl. It's a fun technique, quite versatile. And it enables some quirky plant combos, you could do low-boggy in front of high-xeric, say, if that turned your crank. Also, the "rimrock" is a good mounting spot for broms, and higher cliffs really facilitate spilling or trailing plants.

My first foray into the technique was with the full-span, single-dam thing. Just trying to keep the drip-wall water from soaking my planted substrate. Once I got that to work, the flashbulbs started popping.

Oh - keeping in line with the thread, another thing I've done is to make an epoxied-foam (fake rock) "planting shelf". Imagine a canoe, ripped lengthwise along the keel. Glue half to the wall, and fill with your chosen media. If you pay proper attention with the adhesive, it'll leak (drain), which is better for most plants. Or, don't plant it, if you just want a frog shelf. You could easily make something that looks like a conk (fungus) if you don't want the stone look. The only rule here is, don't epoxy the flat face that will be siliconed to the glass - _leave that as bare foam_.

Nice thread, SM!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Negative Space. You are talking about what I have talked about more than a few times. I call it, "Negative Space". 

Negative Space is any and all space in your vivarium that frogs cannot traverse upon, hunt in, hide a full-on kegger party in, court and call in, stash a gun that must never be found in, lay eggs in, or raise tads in.

Negative Space! It's right out in the open, BUT NOBODY SEES IT!! It's happening to someone you know, right now. We quite literally look right through it.


_(voice of Rod Serling)
(cue music)_
"Submitted for your approval, one Christopher Tobal. Born of the Dendrobatidae family into the Oophaga genus. Genus, perhaps. Genius? Perhaps not...
Imagine, if you will, a beautiful, 3 story house, built by Chris Tobal himself. The perfect home for he and his girl to settle down in and raise a family. It's got a kitchen, a living room, and the perfect place to put a playroom for the kids. It was picture perfect...the American dream. Something, though, something wasn't quite right.
You see, Chris had missed just one...tiny...detail. Upon entering the home, you could see the love and the beautiful craftsmanship Chris had poured into the construction. Looking up, however, things were...different. You see, When Chris kicks back in his recliner, he only sees the ceiling...thirty feet above him. Chris had built his gorgeous, 3 story home, with no second story...AND no third story. There would be no plush carpeting upstairs, for it had no floor. No eggshell white shelves to put your knick-knacks in. No bedroom for little Bobby to play with his new baby sister in. There would be no pictures on the walls showing a loving life spent together. 
For you see, you've just entered...The Negative Space Zone."


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I build for climbers. These are the various ways I use to eliminate negative space. 

I use textured sidewall "backgrounds". I keep them very thin, however, so I don't take up valuable space with great stuff, etc. I will generally used some cork in the sides, for beauty and for them to climb on. Other than that, however, I simply spread a thick coat of silicone on the walls with a credit card, and press old school tree fern fiber into it. I have not tried the newer, soft tree fern fiber, as I don't believe it would have the same longevity. This gives me a beautiful, fully textured wall so the frogs can utilize every inch of it, but it only takes up a quarter inch or less of tank space.

Branches. I love using cork bark and ghost wood to create tree branches extending into your negative space. I combine pieces, sometimes just scrap bits even, of both cork bark and ghost wood to create a full tree in my vivariums. Each and every branch I can get out into empty space, helps to put pieces of that missing 2nd and 3rd floor, back into Chris's home.
I will also often use a ghost wood "jungle gym" set upon the floor of your vivarium. This too, adds dimension and usable space. This is also one that can be every bit as useful to larger frogs, too. Particularly with tree and branch work, keep light penetration in mind. Light can't penetrate through a tight cluster of branches. Staggered branches, however, allow light to penetrate and create fun, natural looking shaded areas down below. It gives you a plethora of different lighting levels in your vivarium. That lets you use plants requiring intense light, plants that prefer dappled shade, and everything in between, in your build.

Plants. Adding a bromeliad by mounting it to a wall creates an extension into the negative space that frogs can climb on, breed in, raise tads in, and hunt in. 
Mounting a bromeliad to your branches, or jungle gym, extends even further into your negative space, adding more square inches to explore.
A single, well chosen, broad leafed terrestrial plant, also adds space. At a glance, it may seem to take up space, but each and every leaf that extends out into empty space, adds usable climbing space to small, lightweight, climbing experts. The overlapping leaves make it a castle of protection, and a great place to hide, to a tiny frog's eyes.
Of course I'm not stopping at two plants. I'm just showing you that plants don't necessarily have to take up space. Most plants will have the appearance of taking up space, however, well chosen, well placed plants can be quite useful tools in eating up that empty space. 

Floor. *FTS.* It's a tragedy we've all seen. It has affected some of our loved ones, maybe even some of us. Well I have good news for you. With a healthy diet, a good exercise regimen, and a little planning with your vivs bottom, you can avoid FTS forever.
Flat Tank Syndrome...only you can prevent it.
Sloping your substrate, building a hill or valley, and adding climbable jungle gyms, can all add a little more, or good bit more, surface area on the floor. A well thought out ghostwood jungle gym for terrestrial frogs would likely be different than the taller pieces I look for. Look for something horizontally longer, and easy to climb. Just dropping a log on the floor takes up space as it adds it. I think a perfect terrestrial jungle gym should be a branch with only 3 small, branch tip contact points on the ground. Then your frogs can still utilize all the space under the jungle gym.

Speaking of jungle gyms, lets take a quick peek at "The Jungle Gym". The Jungle Gym is my 40 gallon vert conversion with dual Sherman Vents. One of my primary goals with the construction of The Jungle Gym was to try and eliminate as much of the negative space as possible. I think it really shows what I am talking about with thin, textured walls incorporating climbable cork, and plenty of branch work. 
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/334946-jungle-gym.html


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Pumilo said:


> I build for climbers. These are the various ways I use to eliminate negative space.
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I love the jungle gym. 

I'm working towards something similar for my current work on progress tank, but not as extreme since it's for terrestrial frogs


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

Here is one of my latest attempts at filling up the "negative space." It's hard to tell, but in certain areas along the back and sides, I created vines/ledges with foam anywhere between a half inch to a couple of inches. Those lead to the broms I've placed throughout and allow them to travel along the sides a bit easier.


Edit: I can't figure this image sharing stuff out...https://imgur.com/a/NTfu0GV


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

bssknox said:


> Here is one of my latest attempts at filling up the "negative space." It's hard to tell, but in certain areas along the back and sides, I created vines/ledges with foam anywhere between a half inch to a couple of inches. Those lead to the broms I've placed throughout and allow them to travel along the sides a bit easier.
> 
> 
> Edit: I can't figure this image sharing stuff out...https://imgur.com/a/NTfu0GV


I like it.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

bssknox said:


> Here is one of my latest attempts at filling up the "negative space." It's hard to tell, but in certain areas along the back and sides, I created vines/ledges with foam anywhere between a half inch to a couple of inches. Those lead to the broms I've placed throughout and allow them to travel along the sides a bit easier.
> 
> 
> Edit: I can't figure this image sharing stuff out...https://imgur.com/a/NTfu0GV


Here is a video explaining the imgur site. You can skip to 1 minute mark if you know how to login:


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Doug, that Jungle Gym reminds me of Jackson Pollack's paintings, and frankly puts them to shame. Epic.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I feel like I have the use of the vertical space down pretty well. It is just natural for me to fill that stuff up so the frogs can use it. What I am still learning, however, is how to use the vertical space while not completely shading the ground floor. I think the frogs don't mind this at all but it's sort of an aesthetic thing for me. I like to have plants growing in all the strata of the tank and it's far too easy to make it too dark in the understory. I am getting better, but am not there yet. I know I can get around this by selecting more shade-tolerant species for down there, but I am just not that sophisticated yet  I try to focus on how to put things in the negative spaces that don't shade the bottom as much. The most difficult tanks for me to be happy with the use of negative space are skyscrapers. The height (combined with a small footprint) and limited light angles make them especially challenging. 

Mark


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

One of my most shy groups of frogs, using the extra levels, this is in the top third of the tank.









If you look closely there are two frogs in the picture. One in top of the cork and one inside the cork tube (can only see its leg)


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

bssknox said:


> Here is one of my latest attempts at filling up the "negative space." It's hard to tell, but in certain areas along the back and sides, I created vines/ledges with foam anywhere between a half inch to a couple of inches. Those lead to the broms I've placed throughout and allow them to travel along the sides a bit easier.
> 
> 
> Edit: I can't figure this image sharing stuff out...https://imgur.com/a/NTfu0GV












There we go! Thanks for the help!


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## mikemakesapps (Mar 11, 2019)

Wow, thanks for the inspiration all. Especially the jungle gym Pumillo, that looks great.
I think I am going to try your method of silicone, tree fern fiber, cork bark, and ghost wood. Maybe planted a little less heavily though... I don't know if my wallet or patience could support 185+ plants


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

_Vertical space _ it just seems like a human eyeballed schematic to me.

What is it? in the glass container we buy

In nature its all up and out into an open scope of lateral dimension.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

FishingGuy12345 I really like the Steppe feature on your wall. Its astute and so full of observational knowledge and courtesy for your frogs.

Even the spacing reflects your insight. 

I just love it when animals get lucky.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Kmc said:


> FishingGuy12345 I really like the Steppe feature on your wall. Its astute and so full of observational knowledge and courtesy for your frogs.
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Thank you , my goal is to do right by the frogs


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Another one of mine 36x18x18"


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

36x18x24"


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

In terms of "terrestrial" frogs like my terribilis; I have 9 (5 Blackfoots and 4 Mints) and between them, 4 out of 9 of them climb *every day*. The rest climb occasionally with only 2 never being observed doing so.

Up to 30" off the ground on vines that range from near-vertical to horizontal, with confidence and nonchalance. I'm sure that given the chance they would go higher.

As we've all discussed elsewhere, in nature that's like traversing a fallen log or scrambling over buttress roots and such, it's not high and still firmly "terrestrial" but it puts the lie to almost everything I've casually read about this species, which climbs about as much as my tinctorius did years ago when I had some Azureus.

As Ed and others have said, I'm also convinced a lot of frogs -- terribilis in particular -- are overfed and overweight. Mine cease all athletics when fed a lot, but I've experimented with their portions and frequency, to the point where they're always foraging rather than sitting around, and that's when I see the exploratory, climbing behaviour.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I do the cork ledge backgrounds as well. 
I too try to keep my planting less, and let it grow in over time. 


Nick Gamble
Gamphibian


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Gamble said:


> I do the cork ledge backgrounds as well.
> I too try to keep my planting less, and let it grow in over time.
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Fantastic!!!!!!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

100% Brilliant


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I'm going to steal this idea and combine it with my style of setups in the future haha.

Your tanks not only look amazing, they have a lot of functionality aswell.


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## Frogmanjared (Jul 17, 2020)

I thought about this concept a lot while doing my first diy build. 18x18x18 imitator vivarium. I wanted to keep the background and sides as thin as possible so I could have more light penetrating to the substrate for plants. At the same time I wanted shadows cast onto the the leaf litter. This might not be the best setup for catching frogs, but they have utilized every inch of every branch and ledge built in. Its crazy to watch them jump from brom-brom, branch-branch, branch-brom, etc. 
https://flic.kr/p/2jD5qZx https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ 
Here's a top view to show how much empty vertical space is used up. Sorry, I had just sprayed!
https://flic.kr/p/2jFxrAg https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

That top-down pic is really useful for getting an understanding of how well you're used that space. Nice!


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