# Uncoordinated movements



## KevinS (Sep 23, 2008)

I've got 5 amazon milk frogs (not darts, but I thought you knowledgeable frog folks could help) and today I noticed that 2 of them seem to be having difficulty moving. They seem generally weak and uncoordinated, though I'm not sure why. I feed them dubia roaches and mealworms mostly, but add waxworms and crickets for variety on occasion. The food is always gutloaded although I haven't dusted any of their prey items for a while (maybe a week or two). I can't rule out a nutritional issue, although I don't suspect it's the cause. The other 3 seem just fine in every way and all are kept under identical conditions. Any ideas what might be causing this and what I can do about it?


----------



## gretchenellie (Aug 7, 2007)

aren't meal worms too hard for frogs to digest?


----------



## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

gretchenellie said:


> aren't meal worms too hard for frogs to digest?


In my opinion and experience it depends on the species. I personally like crickets and phoenix worms, as well as some other insects I use.


----------



## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

gretchenellie said:


> aren't meal worms too hard for frogs to digest?


They can be if they are fed frequently to darts, but they are not so bad for treefrogs. I still would not feed them too often though. The chitlin (spelling?) is what is hard to digest, and superworms have even more of it than the mealies.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

there is some research out there that indicates the digestiablilty of chitin was underestimated in earlier nutritional assays 

With respect to mealworms.. there is information out there that indicates that mealworms maybe a better food source than crickets (at least in some lizards) see 
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

When looking at chitin content of an invertebrate.. often larger invertebrates have less chitin as there is disproportionatly less chitin when compared to the total volume of the insect. 

Ed


----------



## KevinS (Sep 23, 2008)

The way I look at it, chitin=calcium so I don't try to avoid it (how much calcium is actually gained by the digestion of chitin, I don't know). Obviously I try to keep things in moderation and avoid feeding practices that could lead to impaction or digestive problems, but I don't shy away from occasionally feeding bugs with some crunch to them as part of a varied diet. The nice thing about keeping a colony of mealworms going is the constant supply of softer-bodied pupae as an alternative to the larvae.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KevinS said:


> The way I look at it, chitin=calcium so I don't try to avoid it (how much calcium is actually gained by the digestion of chitin, I don't know). Obviously I try to keep things in moderation and avoid feeding practices that could lead to impaction or digestive problems, but I don't shy away from occasionally feeding bugs with some crunch to them as part of a varied diet. The nice thing about keeping a colony of mealworms going is the constant supply of softer-bodied pupae as an alternative to the larvae.


While there is calcium in chitins, in the vast majority of the commercially used feeders there is no where near enough calcium to even come close to offsetting the high levels of phosphorus. None of the feeders you are using really even come close to a 1:1 to 1:2 ratio of calcium to phosphorus. See Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies for a more recent reference. 

How routinely were you dusting the foods before the last two week exception and what are you using for a gut load? 

Ed


----------



## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Ed said:


> While there is calcium in chitins, in the vast majority of the commercially used feeders there is no where near enough calcium to even come close to offsetting the high levels of phosphorus. None of the feeders you are using really even come close to a 1:1 to 1:2 ratio of calcium to phosphorus. See Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies for a more recent reference.
> 
> How routinely were you dusting the foods before the last two week exception and what are you using for a gut load?
> 
> Ed


You beat me to it. LOL I was about to ask the same thing. If it weren't for my son I probably would have.


----------



## KevinS (Sep 23, 2008)

Ed said:


> While there is calcium in chitins, in the vast majority of the commercially used feeders there is no where near enough calcium to even come close to offsetting the high levels of phosphorus. None of the feeders you are using really even come close to a 1:1 to 1:2 ratio of calcium to phosphorus. See Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies for a more recent reference.
> 
> How routinely were you dusting the foods before the last two week exception and what are you using for a gut load?
> 
> Ed


Prior to the recent exception, I dusted about every other feeding with either calcium powder or a multivitamin. The diet of my feeders is also kept variable to try to account for any deficiencies, but I feed them mostly Crested Gecko Diet, RepCal Bearded Dragon Pellets, and fish food (cichlid pellets specifically). I've heard some anecdotal reports that young milk frogs can be susceptible to calcium deficiencies and to watch for rubbery lower jaws. None of mine appear any different as if to indicate MBD. If calcium was the issue should I expect to see changes in physical appearance before loss of motor control or is there no particular rhyme or reason to the onset of symptoms?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MBD is really a group of problems that present the same or very similar symptoms (check out an old article I put together at FFAQ. Scroll down the left side until you see a link titled MBD. I should update that at some point...). The issue with "MBD" can present in different ways depending on how severe it is and the cause and depending on whether or not the frogs have depeleted the reserves in thier bones yet. 

I would be surprised if they had MBD after only two weeks unless there was something wrong with the supplement or how the gut load and supplements were interacting. 

What supplements were you using?


----------



## KevinS (Sep 23, 2008)

Thanks for the link. I've been using a supplement designed for leopard geckos lately since it's what I had on hand. I forget exactly what I was using before, but it's been at least 2 months since I used anything else. Here's a link with the ingredients and dietary analysis for the leo supplement:
Welcome to Repashy Ventures - Superfoods

They also have a dust specifically for treefrogs, but it has the same nutritional analysis and the ingredients seem to be the same, though in different proportions:
http://www.superfoods.repashy.com/foods_ICB_TreeFrog.htm

Does anything jump out at you as potentially unbalanced or problematic? As far as calcium, I've been using Jurassi-Cal which doesn't contain phosphorus or D3.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is evidence out that at least some level of retinol needs to be included in the rotation of the supplements however the typical recommendation is that if the supplement contains retinol that the ratio of vitamin A as retinol to D3 should be close to 100 to 10 or 10 to 1 as these fat soluble vitamins compete with one another for uptake in the digestive tract. 
Whether there is sufficient beta carotene to make up the difference isn't shown on the analysis but in this case there may be problems with the uptake. 

Ed


----------

