# Dendrobates mysteriosus - So beautiful, So dangerous



## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Im not trying to open a can of worms, but I just found this great video of a Dendrobates mysteriosus calling. Maybe someone might need it for breeding theirs (legal or other  )? 
If loving this frog is bad, then I dont wanna be right!

YouTube - ‪Mysteriosus cantando‬‏


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Where can we get them?
They are the bomb.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Venutus1 said:


> Where can we get them?
> They are the bomb.



Europe  ...illegally...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

They are on the USF&W watch list as they have refused import permits due to them being illegally exported to Europe... 

I suggest looking at the penalities imposed by the Lacey Act.. see Lacey Act Amendments of 1981

This actually breaks down the Lacey Act quite well 

http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/articles/springsteen_lacey.pdf


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I think someone was being funny........
you Dendro guys are always so serious.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

from my understanding INIBICO will be bringing some of them in the near future.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> from my understanding INIBICO will be bringing some of them in the near future.


They got permits to export and import? 

Ed


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Julio said:


> from my understanding INIBICO will be bringing some of them in the near future.


I just think they are very eye catching.

Probably not enough though to risk prison time.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Ed said:


> They got permits to export and import?
> 
> Ed


Hey Ed,

Yes they do, there was a discussion on here a few months back about it. Its s a matter of time now.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Wow, that would be fantastic. I just love them. I have a friend who has one and its got the most beautiful spots. It would be nice to get these legally from INIBICO



Julio said:


> from my understanding INIBICO will be bringing some of them in the near future.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Julio said:


> from my understanding INIBICO will be bringing some of them in the near future.


Haven't they been saying this since like 2005 though? Is there something different this year coming from the Peruvian government?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> Haven't they been saying this since like 2005 though? Is there something different this year coming from the Peruvian government?


That is what I remembered, which is why I was asking if they had actually got permits this time.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

rmelancon said:


> Haven't they been saying this since like 2005 though? Is there something different this year coming from the Peruvian government?


This year was the first year i have heard of them coming in legally through INIBICO, so i am not sure about it previously being mentioned.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As Robb mentioned this isn't the first year that I've heard that Inbico was supposed to be able to export them. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I heard the same 'rumor' but from different source of information. Perhaps this is the year


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm not holding my breath....

Mystis are nice, but I just have trouble thinking they're _that_ nice.... Personally, I'm a much bigger fan of the sister species E. captivus.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I'm not holding my breath....
> 
> Mystis are nice, but I just have trouble thinking they're _that_ nice.... Personally, I'm a much bigger fan of the sister species E. captivus.


I'd be happy if i was able to get E.anthonyi 'highland'...i dont see what so "amazing" about mystis anyways...


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

At least there are cool videos to watch.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

boabab95 said:


> I'd be happy if i was able to get E.anthonyi 'highland'...i dont see what so "amazing" about mystis anyways...


in all honesty i think is just one of those things that people want what they can't have, then ounce the hobby gets flooded with them people will start to not keep them anymore as has happened to many darts in the hobby that are not as popular with hobbyist nowadays as they used to be.


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

Julio said:


> in all honesty i think is just one of those things that people want what they can't have, then ounce the hobby gets flooded with them people will start to not keep them anymore as has happened to many darts in the hobby that are not as popular with hobbyist nowadays as they used to be.


Julio, 

I think you hit that right on the head. If and when they do come in they will be quite pricey (I'd imagine), but once they establish here in the states the price should drop considerably. They are supposed to be very good breeders. These are very common in Europe because they are bred so consistently. It was like when the first azureus came to the states, they ran for upwards of $250 each, now look at their prices. 

I saw some in a couple of tanks from a German breeder on a visit there nearly a decade ago and he had them separated by white dots and light bluish dots. I am not aware of two different locales, but perhaps Rainer Shulte would know better.

Well, here's to hoping!.. 

Peter Keane


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

They really aren't that impressive in person.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I really would be just as happy if they never came into the hobby legally.

People really just want to say they have something that no one else has. Currently they would fetch a huge price because of how illegal they are. However, my understanding is there's already a some what established underground of mystis right here in the US. I'm pretty convinced that once someone legally imports mystis all the illegal ones will be labeled as the imported shipment and prices will drop faster than R. benedicta prices (especially considering how well they breed in captivity).

Really, for me it's all about the captivus (as I've already said). In their presentation at Microcosm, Mark Pepper mentioned that he was trying to work with captivus. However, I don't believe they've been able to get the right paper work to legally export into the US (and who knows if they ever will). Still... that's what I'm holding out hope for....


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

SmackoftheGods said:


> However, my understanding is there's already a some what established underground of mystis right here in the US. I'm pretty convinced that once someone legally imports mystis all the illegal ones will be labeled as the imported shipment and prices will drop faster than R. benedicta prices (especially considering how well they breed in captivity)


not just in america, theres also quite a few in Canada...



roughly how big are these anyways? pumilio size? leuc? terribilis?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

They are similar in size to an auratus and based on the call I think they'd be considered part of the more general tinctorious tribe of dart frogs. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Fitzy (Sep 12, 2008)

Definitely different looking, almost reminds me of my gfs rainboots


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## dynekevin (May 24, 2011)

i want some =)


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Really, for me it's all about the captivus (as I've already said). In their presentation at Microcosm, Mark Pepper mentioned that he was trying to work with captivus. However, I don't believe they've been able to get the right paper work to legally export into the US (and who knows if they ever will). Still... that's what I'm holding out hope for....


agreed the captivus would excite me much more than mystis. also from the reports ive heard mysteriosus tads can take 8+ months to develop, so thats a pretty big turn off IMO.

really though if i was looking for an legal grey area/ illegal frog with a brown background and white spots it would be this  :









on the other hand a rock wall tank with broms for mystis would be spectacular. their habitat is just so interesting.










james


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I really would be just as happy if they never came into the hobby legally.
> 
> People really just want to say they have something that no one else has. Currently they would fetch a huge price because of how illegal they are. However, my understanding is there's already a some what established underground of mystis right here in the US. I'm pretty convinced that once someone legally imports mystis all the illegal ones will be labeled as the imported shipment and prices will drop faster than R. benedicta prices (especially considering how well they breed in captivity).
> 
> Really, for me it's all about the captivus (as I've already said). In their presentation at Microcosm, Mark Pepper mentioned that he was trying to work with captivus. However, I don't believe they've been able to get the right paper work to legally export into the US (and who knows if they ever will). Still... that's what I'm holding out hope for....


I'm still hoping that Mark will be able to get his group of A. pongoensis going. such cool little frogs.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Mystis are interesting frogs, but to me, are not spectacular in any way visually. I agree that the call sounded exactly like my male cobalt. The only reason I would ever buy one(legally) would be if I had a massive collection with all sorts of different species. But at that point I would cease to be a hobbiest, and would become a collector. 

JBear


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

According to Twomey and Brown they are most closely related to Ranitomeya.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i think they are pretty awesome looking, but i dont they should come in specifically because people have them illegally.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

rmelancon said:


> They are similar in size to an auratus and based on the call I think they'd be considered part of the more general tinctorious tribe of dart frogs. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


Different genus than tinctorius, so I don't think they could be considered tinc group (they certainly couldn't be considered in a tinc clade).

Can someone tell me what they were before they became Excidobates? I thought they were Oophaga, but I think I was wrong....


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Different genus than tinctorius, so I don't think they could be considered tinc group (they certainly couldn't be considered in a tinc clade).
> 
> Can someone tell me what they were before they became Excidobates? I thought they were Oophaga, but I think I was wrong....


They were originally described as _Dendrobates_.


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

They wont be cheap


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

wow! I am so surprised of reading that post! mysteriosus are really common in Europe, very easy to get in a very reasonable price, all captive bred (maybe their parents where illegal) but now you can find them in fairs at prices around 60 euros each, even subadult animals. They are smaller than a standard auratus, more like a kind of a big Anthony.

greetings!


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

When they are completely wiped out from the wild, it will be really cool to tell people that I have an extinct species. Get yours now while they are still very hot!

Those of you who already have these illegal aniamls in your collections really should be ashamed of yourselves.

Richard.


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> When they are completely wiped out from the wild, it will be really cool to tell people that I have an extinct species. Get yours now while they are still very hot!
> 
> Those of you who already have these illegal aniamls in your collections really should be ashamed of yourselves.
> 
> Richard.


personally, I don't have them in my collection, but I just describe the fact that a LOT of people in europe are breeding them in big numbers. Just describing a fact, don't want to start a fight! 
It's 100% sure that all this big amount of captive bred animals come from illegal parents? just want to know it, as long as I don't want illegal or WC frogs in my vivs

greetings!


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

For those of you having high hopes for captivus, i would think getting legal imports of mysteriosus would be a good stepping stone to make captivus happen as well. And for all you folks saying you could care less if they come into the hobby or not because they were smuggled and are very illegal or are not that pretty anyway..... You know you will all have them as soon as they are imported


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Woodsman said:


> When they are completely wiped out from the wild, it will be really cool to tell people that I have an extinct species. Get yours now while they are still very hot!
> 
> Those of you who already have these illegal aniamls in your collections really should be ashamed of yourselves.
> 
> Richard.


Take a breath Rich.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

goku said:


> personally, I don't have them in my collection, but I just describe the fact that a LOT of people in europe are breeding them in big numbers. Just describing a fact, don't want to start a fight!
> It's 100% sure that all this big amount of captive bred animals come from illegal parents? just want to know it, as long as I don't want illegal or WC frogs in my vivs
> 
> greetings!


According to Peru, they were never exported legally and all of the parental stock was smuggled. As I remember it, they aren't legal across the entire EU because unlike some other frogs, they were not confiscated and laundered through zoos or other institutions.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

josh_r said:


> For those of you having high hopes for captivus, i would think getting legal imports of mysteriosus would be a good stepping stone to make captivus happen as well. And for all you folks saying you could care less if they come into the hobby or not because they were smuggled and are very illegal or are not that pretty anyway..... You know you will all have them as soon as they are imported


why would that be a good stepping stone for them? because they are closely related? thats really irrelevant. its all up to the peruvian government and at this point i doubt either is going to happen. the wild population of mysteriosus is too low for them to allow collecting and its extremely doubtful they would except any from the original smuggled frogs as legal. as for captivus, since it was recently re-discovered and now a whole lot is known about the population they probably wont allow them to be collected either. something mark pepper mentioned at microcosm was that they couldnt collect certain frogs (i dont think it was about captivus) because not a lot was known on the population, and they couldnt be the ones to research them and say the population was in good shape. it would have to be an unrelated party calling the shots. 

also, in regards to your signature, they are called chickadees because they make the sound "chicka-dee-dee-dee-dee"


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

Ed said:


> According to Peru, they were never exported legally and all of the parental stock was smuggled. As I remember it, they aren't legal across the entire EU because unlike some other frogs, they were not confiscated and laundered through zoos or other institutions.


such a shame..I didn't know that, as I told, mysteriosus in europe now it's really easy to find, sometimes even easyer than mint terribilis, lorenzos tinc, or most pumilio morphs, for example, I wouldn't expect that the hole parentals where smuggled! 
so incredible that with the huge variety of PDF that we have, there has to be still this situations..according to this, any mysteriosus that we find in the hobby should be considered an illegal frog?

thanks for the info!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

goku said:


> according to this, any mysteriosus that we find in the hobby should be considered an illegal frog?
> 
> thanks for the info!


as peru would see it, yes. not sure on some of the european countries though, as some things have been smuggled there and they accept them as legal, when the country of origin does not.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

josh_r said:


> For those of you having high hopes for captivus, i would think getting legal imports of mysteriosus would be a good stepping stone to make captivus happen as well. And for all you folks saying you could care less if they come into the hobby or not because they were smuggled and are very illegal or are not that pretty anyway..... You know you will all have them as soon as they are imported


If I wanted a mysteriosus, I assure you I'd have some. Unless I get to the point where I'm working with several hundred tanks I don't ever suspect i'll be working with this species. They really are close to the bottom of my list.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

From what I understand about their captive culture and behavior in vivaria, they are basically like having polka-dot _D. auratus_.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I'm with Julio and others on this one. Some of them look pretty cool, but if they were as common as spotted auratus, I wonder if there would be as much interest. Conversely, imagine if G&B auratus were rare and could only be obtained through Europe. I think there would be much more interest in them.

I know that each person has their own taste, but I am often surprised that so much is made over some of the obligate egg feeders that are rare and expensive or those that are only available in Europe. Perhaps some folks like the challenge of having frogs that are difficult to find and breed, but some of them just don't look that great to me. Someone posted some photos of frogs available in Europe but not in the U.S., and frankly, I thought some were pretty ugly.

If I want to see something ugly...all I have to do is look in the mirror.


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

thedude said:


> why would that be a good stepping stone for them? because they are closely related? thats really irrelevant. its all up to the peruvian government and at this point i doubt either is going to happen. the wild population of mysteriosus is too low for them to allow collecting and its extremely doubtful they would except any from the original smuggled frogs as legal. as for captivus, since it was recently re-discovered and now a whole lot is known about the population they probably wont allow them to be collected either. something mark pepper mentioned at microcosm was that they couldnt collect certain frogs (i dont think it was about captivus) because not a lot was known on the population, and they couldnt be the ones to research them and say the population was in good shape. it would have to be an unrelated party calling the shots.
> 
> also, in regards to your signature, they are called chickadees because they make the sound "chicka-dee-dee-dee-dee"



It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are closely related. That is just ignorant thinking. It has to do with the fact that they successfully brought in one critically endangered species and is successful with it in captivity and aids in bringing money to the Peruvian government and to continuing protection of habitat. The success we gave with each species legally brought in this way is a stepping stone for the next species. We didn't get summersi and benedicta when this all started. We got vents and had to work up to the others with each succession of the prior species. But maybe I'm wrong. 

And if mysteriosus is legally brought in, I doubt people would rather replace it with a spotted auratus because auratus is not mysteriosus. They are not the same frog. These things have been said before with other species and now that those species are here legally everyone seems to own them. I see that same trend happening with mysteriosus if that ever happens.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

josh_r said:


> I doubt people would rather replace it with a spotted auratus because auratus is not mysteriosus.



I would...Auratus are underappreciated, in my opinion...


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

JimO said:


> I'm with Julio and others on this one. Some of them look pretty cool, but if they were as common as spotted auratus, I wonder if there would be as much interest. Conversely, imagine if G&B auratus were rare and could only be obtained through Europe. I think there would be much more interest in them.
> 
> I know that each person has their own taste, but I am often surprised that so much is made over some of the obligate egg feeders that are rare and expensive or those that are only available in Europe. Perhaps some folks like the challenge of having frogs that are difficult to find and breed, but some of them just don't look that great to me. Someone posted some photos of frogs available in Europe but not in the U.S., and frankly, I thought some were pretty ugly.
> 
> If I want to see something ugly...all I have to do is look in the mirror.


Why but they are not as common as auratus... Not in the states. And a big part of why people claim to not want them I believe is because they are illegal and were smuggled. But what about all the other species that started out as smuggled stock? Casti's originally were pretty popular until they were found to be illegal or whatever then lots of people said they 
didn't really like them that much anyway. People like to jump on the band wagon as to what's popular or whatever. You see it a lot on public forums


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

JimO said:


> I'm with Julio and others on this one. Some of them look pretty cool, but if they were as common as spotted auratus, I wonder if there would be as much interest. Conversely, imagine if G&B auratus were rare and could only be obtained through Europe. I think there would be much more interest in them.
> 
> I know that each person has their own taste, but I am often surprised that so much is made over some of the obligate egg feeders that are rare and expensive or those that are only available in Europe. Perhaps some folks like the challenge of having frogs that are difficult to find and breed, but some of them just don't look that great to me. Someone posted some photos of frogs available in Europe but not in the U.S., and frankly, I thought some were pretty ugly.
> 
> If I want to see something ugly...all I have to do is look in the mirror.


 but they are not as common as auratus... Not in the states. And a big part of why people claim to not want them I believe is because they are illegal and were smuggled. But what about all the other species that started out as smuggled stock? Casti's originally were pretty popular until they were found to be illegal or whatever then lots of people said they 
didn't really like them that much anyway. People like to jump on the band wagon as to what's popular or whatever. You see it a lot on public forums


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

And I'm not saying everybody would jump on mysteriosus the first chance they could if it ever came in but I believe many would want to or have the temptation to


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

josh_r said:


> It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are closely related. That is just ignorant thinking. It has to do with the fact that they successfully brought in one critically endangered species and is successful with it in captivity and aids in bringing money to the Peruvian government and to continuing protection of habitat. The success we gave with each species legally brought in this way is a stepping stone for the next species. We didn't get summersi and benedicta when this all started. We got vents and had to work up to the others with each succession of the prior species. But maybe I'm wrong.


thats why i asked why you said that, i didnt think it. i see your point but from what ive heard captivus isnt really all that endangered. the point is it wont come in because the people wanting to bring it in are the same people researching it. and the peruvian government wont accept them saying its a go for collection, because they are the ones that would benefit. in regards to money coming in for protecting mysteriosis habitat, that wouldnt happen either because all of their habitat is already either protected or destroyed.

i do agree with you about people wanting what they cant have though. but auratus does work in comparison, because if/when the columbian population comes in, a lot of people are gonna jump on it. if mystis come in, they will drop in price fast, become too common, most of them will start disappearing like has happened before. ive been in the hobby for only 4 years and ive already seen this happen. cant imagine how many times the older members have seen it.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

josh_r said:


> And if mysteriosus is legally brought in, I doubt people would rather replace it with a spotted auratus because auratus is not mysteriosus. They are not the same frog.


I think you missed my point. I was only using a spotted auratus as an example. I wasn't commenting at all on whether auratus and mysteriosus are related (I'm not qualified to even comment on that). My point was simply that some folks aren't interested in commonly available and inexpensive frogs simply because they are so common and inexpensive. It's human nature to want what is new and different. There are some people who would jump at the chance to legally obtain mysteriosus, who might later lose interest if they became as common as, say leucs. And, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that.

As I said before, everybody has their own tastes, but regardless of its availability, price, ease of care, mysteriosus just doesn't appeal to me.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> . ive been in the hobby for only 4 years and ive already seen this happen. cant imagine how many times the older members have seen it.


 
I don't even like to think about it..


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Rare in the hobby doesn't equate to a species being rare in the wild. Actually, the vast majority of Dendrobatids are doing just fine in the wild.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Personally I've seen tricolors, trivitattus, vittatus, lugubris, ventrimaculatus, truncatus, quinquevittatus, galactonotus, azureiventris, bassleri, and aurotaenia rise in popularity then damn near disappear from the hobby. Some are still hard to find because of the hobby's fickle nature. Sad shit.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

fleshfrombone said:


> Personally I've seen tricolors, trivitattus, vittatus, lugubris, ventrimaculatus, truncatus, quinquevittatus, galactonotus, azureiventris, bassleri, and aurotaenia rise in popularity then damn near disappear from the hobby. Some are still hard to find because of the hobby's fickle nature. Sad shit.


Yeah, the demand for some of these species is very hot and cold. I'm currently breeding tricolors, vittatus, lugubris, azureiventris, bassleri, and aurotaenia, and some months I can't sell any (or damn near give them away) whereas at other times it seems like I could never meet demand. 

That said, I've become very, very particular about who I sell/trade frogs to these days after seeing so many people just up and disappear a few months after selling/trading frogs to them. That just kills me since I know that chances are those frogs are gone along with any effort to establish them. These days it seems easier to offer them locally at a discount and keep them at arms length in case they need to be reallocated to other folks when something happens.


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## Paul (Nov 15, 2007)

yeah, too bad their illegal to own in the states otherwise i'm with everyone else, I would love one of these.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> Yeah, the demand for some of these species is very hot and cold. I'm currently breeding tricolors, vittatus, lugubris, azureiventris, bassleri, and aurotaenia, and some months I can't sell any (or damn near give them away) whereas at other times it seems like I could never meet demand.
> 
> That said, I've become very, very particular about who I sell/trade frogs to these days after seeing so many people just up and disappear a few months after selling/trading frogs to them. That just kills me since I know that chances are those frogs are gone along with any effort to establish them. These days it seems easier to offer them locally at a discount and keep them at arms length in case they need to be reallocated to other folks when something happens.


Yeah man, it's beyond lame. I remember when people were so overrun with lugubris, vittatus, azureiventris, and aurotaenia they were giving them away.


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## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

Wooooow that's an amazing frog!


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