# Home for terrestrial darts, but which?



## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Finally got round to finishing my Exo Terra 24x18x18" today. For months it had been sitting around with a false floor, cork bark and foam corner piece and Epiweb walls, simply being a grow out tank for plants, no more!

There is Epiweb moss mix on the walls, hopefully I get some good growth from it. I have planted the tank quite lightly, going to see how it grows in. Just need to pick up a coconut and make a hut for under the large bromeliad and order some springtails and isopods.

Still unsure what will eventually live in here. My thoughts are either:
Small group of Auratus El Cope
Small group of Santa Isabel
Small group of Leucomelas
Small group of Terribilis
Pair of Azureus

Im not going to rush anything into the tank so thoughts?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I like it. That would be suitable for any of the species on your list, and all are awesome. However, none will get the attention of visitors like azureus. Hard to beat a blue frog. You may even be able to do a 2.1.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

epiphytes etc. said:


> I like it. That would be suitable for any of the species on your list, and all are awesome. However, none will get the attention of visitors like azureus. Hard to beat a blue frog. You may even be able to do a 2.1.


Thanks  Yeah I know what you mean, I think of how cool the others are but you know everyone will love azureus the most haha.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I think you need a viv, same size, identical to this, a twin, side by side, with terribilis. How to resist to the blue of azureus and to yellow of terribilis? But leuc are also a good (yellow) choise. 
Great tank anyway.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> I think you need a viv, same size, identical to this, a twin, side by side, with terribilis. How to resist to the blue of azureus and to yellow of terribilis? But leuc are also a good (yellow) choise.
> Great tank anyway.


Haha thanks, if only funds would allow  This is my first vivarium so im just getting my eye in so to speak, building it, culturing food and keeping darts so I have experience behind me. When I get my own place the plan is for a huge, Grimm style peninsula with a twist


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Frogs are like cherries, believe me: one leads to another, it is said here (that is, you're never quite satisfied). I started with two vivs almost three years ago and now I have ten vivs (other three coming soon, in the next few months).


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Frogs are like cherries, believe me: one leads to another, it is said here (that is, you're never quite satisfied). I started with two vivs almost three years ago and now I have ten vivs (other three coming soon, in the next few months).


I have pretty good self control (I think haha). I have one tropical fish tank and one vivarium for now. But I love setting up aquascapes and have plenty of ideas for different shape and style vivariums too so I would love to set them up for other people so they could get into the hobby.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

rigel10 said:


> Frogs are like cherries, believe me: one leads to another, it is said here (that is, you're never quite satisfied). I started with two vivs almost three years ago and now I have ten vivs (other three coming soon, in the next few months).


...or like potato chips! Can't just have one! 



I really like your viv! I'd lean towards what you really like or have an interest in keeping the most. If it was me, I'd go for either a nice group of leucs or a pair of azureus! Both will be bold additions that you see at all times of the day. 

Best of luck!


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Brian317 said:


> ...or like potato chips! Can't just have one!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If they're as addictive as texas BBQ flavour Pringles im screwed haha (im sure they're made using crack!!) 

Thanks. Yeah i'd want something bold. Hopefully get some breeding going too


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just ordered 6 small Cryptanthus bivittatus that will be going next to the broms and up the driftwood. Once i know how the moss mix is going, if the big open area on the back wall is just moss and no surprise treats from the bag, im thinking of mounting either Nephrolepis Cordifolia 'Duffy' or Nephrolepis Marisa epiphytically to provide some cover. 
Also on Monday i'll be ordering some Trichorhina Tomentosa and Folsomia Candida, much to my girlfriends horror haha. She looks forward to seeing cute frogs but not creepy crawlies. I just used the same excuse I use for buying more fish, "but I need more otos/shrimp/siamese algae eaters, they are my janitors, they help keep things looking good"


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Found a couple of pics of how the tank looked before I got round to setting it up. 
And also what plants I have sitting around now since they no longer live in the tank haha.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Vanzolinis...


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Judy S said:


> Vanzolinis...


Very good suggestion for a thumbnail species! They are actually one of my all time favorites and when setup properly, they can become very bold. My groups are just as bold as my leucs

I have found that vanzos will make great use of both foliage plants and broms as well as the leaf litter. One of my males will actually call from either his favorite piece of leaf litter or from the edge of the highest brom. Same frog (he's crazy).

If you make good use of the tank's size you could probably fit a sizable group of frogs in there since the are relatively nonaggressive.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks for that suggestion. I have looked at thumbs, I just get nervous at the thought of something so small haha. But then again frogs that small would make the tank feel larger hmmmmmmmm. Whatever goes in the tank has to bold yet have a quiet call as it is 2ft away from my bed, that's why I thought azureus would fit the bill. But if a group of thumbs could work I would be tempted, how many would you say? I hear that most thumbs can get a bit rough when in groups though, is this the case?


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just thought i'd add that I have been monitoring the tanks parameters, at it's coldest during night time drop it gets down to about 19ºc. During the day it usually sits around 23-24ºc. Also the humidity sits around 90-93%.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Humidity is good. Regarding the temps, it's better if you have 20° C at night. I know that ventrimaculatas are fine for 19° C, but I do not have vents and I can not confirm this. Vents have soft call and go well in a group. Good frogs group are lamasi/sirensis, vanzolini, fantastica, bennies.
The frogs do not usually call at night (just my male Solarte it does sometimes). Also I have most of my frogs (and all pums) in my bedroom.
I love to wake up with my frogs.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Humidity is good. Regarding the temps, it's better if you have 20° C at night. I know that ventrimaculatas are fine for 19° C, but I do not have vents and I can not confirm this. Vents have soft call and go well in a group. Good frogs group are lamasi/sirensis, vanzolini, fantastica, bennies.
> The frogs do not usually call at night (just my male Solarte it does sometimes). Also I have most of my frogs (and all pums) in my bedroom.
> I love to wake up with my frogs.


Thanks for the info. My room doesn't really ever get too cold for me but if the central heating isn't on for any reason I do have a gas fireplace in my room for instant heat.
Here is a list of thumbs that are pretty much readily available from a supplier:
Ranitomeya lamasi 'Contanama giant' 
Ranitomeya lamasi 'Lowland red/orange' 
Ranitomeya lamasi sirensis 'Highland' 
Ranitomeya imitator intermedius 'Netted' 
Ranitomeya imitator 'Nominat form'
Ranitomeya vanzolinii

They do get others from time to time.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

They are all a good choice, but imitator generally go in pairs or trio, not in groups.
I love lamasi/sirensis Highland, my preference is for them.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> They are all a good choice, but imitator generally go in pairs or trio, not in groups.
> I love lamasi/sirensis Highland, my preference is for them.


They are stunning, especially when the yellow bands are nice and thick. What numbers are we talking when we mention a group of thumbs? The tank is an exo terra 24x18x18", which I think is 32 US gallons.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

vanzolinissssss...


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

lamasi / sirensis calls are a high pitched trilling call. you can hear the call here http://dendrobates.org/calls/lamasi.mp3


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

If I were personally stocking that size enclosure, with a species of thumb that is known to do well in groups, I would feel comfortable with putting 6-7 in there.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

epiphytes etc. said:


> If I were personally stocking that size enclosure, with a species of thumb that is known to do well in groups, I would feel comfortable with putting 6-7 in there.


Thanks for the heads up. Would it be male heavy like keeping epipedobates?


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just made a few coco huts and a feed dish, depending on the future residents


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

papa_mcknight said:


> Thanks for the heads up. Would it be male heavy like keeping epipedobates?


Not necessarily. Females may eat each others eggs, males may fight, or maybe not ....


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

After scouring videos on Youtube im loving Ranitomeya lamasi sirensis 'Highland' and vanzolinis, but it's tipping towards lamasi if I go for thumbs, unless people could give me reason otherwise.
My plants still haven't been dispatched yet, so this won't be seeded till the weekend, possibly next week 
On a good note, the moss mix looks to be taking hold in places, can see some green coming through. And also 2 small plants have crept out, can't tell what they atm but i'll get my girlfriend to get a decent pic when she comes over


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Good choice in both cases. I prefer lamasi Highland, my top between the thumbnails (together with uakarii), but unfortunately due to the high summer temps at the moment I can not hold them.
Keep us updated!


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Good choice in both cases. I prefer lamasi Highland, my top between the thumbnails (together with uakarii), but unfortunately due to the high summer temps at the moment I can not hold them.
> Keep us updated!


Will do


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i vote for the r. sirensis highlands. they're awesome frogs! im lucky to have some in my collection.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

whitethumb said:


> i vote for the r. sirensis highlands. they're awesome frogs! im lucky to have some in my collection.


The place where i'd be ordering from should have more available in 3 weeks I think, not sure how much they are. The other lamasi go for £40 each. How many do you have in a single enclosure?


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i currently have 2, i'll be adding 3 more real soon. 



papa_mcknight said:


> The place where i'd be ordering from should have more available in 3 weeks I think, not sure how much they are. The other lamasi go for £40 each. How many do you have in a single enclosure?


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

whitethumb said:


> i currently have 2, i'll be adding 3 more real soon.


Awesome! What will the sex be of all of them? Any pics of their enclosure?


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

1 confirmed male, the other is unknown. the other 3 are too young to sex. the pic has a lot of condensation


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

whitethumb said:


> 1 confirmed male, the other is unknown. the other 3 are too young to sex. the pic has a lot of condensation


Thanks for that. Can't wait to see your new arrivals


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Epiweb moss mix progress after one week. Quite a lot of green establishing and also there are 2 tiny plants growing from it if you can spot them in the pics (not the small java fern I attatched just to test out)


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Is it worth buying a heat mat and thermostat to get those extra few ºC's?


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Well 6 lovely Cryptanthus Bivittatus and 1 Nephrolepis Marisa, a nice tub of springtails, a not so great tub of tropical woodlice (can see quite a few dead bodies) are now in my possession. I'll update when they're all in


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Got the other half to take a few quick snaps, i'll try get some better shots next time


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

A shop local to me has a pair of orange galacs going quite cheap, sooooooooooooooooo tempted!


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Galac are a good choice. Very nice frogs! Your viv is perfect for them.
A friend of mine breeds successfully the galacs, but I have no space for frogs of their size. Sigh!


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Galac are a good choice. Very nice frogs! Your viv is perfect for them.
> A friend of mine breeds successfully the galacs, but I have no space for frogs of their size. Sigh!


I might have to pop in and see if they know the sex. They're quite small and feeding on hatchling crickets atm apparently.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just a few pics of moss and plant growth. It's not much as I gave the LED canopy to my auntie for her fish tank that I scaped for her. Have 2 arriving in the next few days so growth should go mental. 
You might notice a bud appearing from the mother brom. 
There is fungi growing at the bottom of the driftwood. 
I threw 2 cuttings of Nymphoides Taiwan from my fish tank into the pool area and they quickly developed new roots and even an offset. 
The Pilea has sent out tonnes of aerial roots which I think make it look much cooler. 
Still cant tell what the plants are that have emerged from my moss mix which is frustrating haha.
Tempted to get Epidendrum porpax for the back wall, thoughts?
Also the springtails are doing great, definitely growing and definitely breeding by the looks of it. Same cant be said about the tropical woodlice, haven't seen any but then again I haven't checked under the leaf litter.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Looking through my viv and aquarium supplies I remembered that ages ago I purchased Exo Terra calcium+D3 supplement as it was cheap and I wasn't sure if I was going reptile or amphibian. Just wondering if it is an ok supplement for darts? If not, what would you recommend?

Next time I have money to spare I will be ordering a better supply of iso's, starting ff cultures, and maybe 1 or 2 miniature orchids to help fill in a few areas. 

Also im really starting to take a shine to ranitomeya sirensis green/contamana, which is handy because they are quite cheap here. They usually go for around £35. The Sirensis orange usually £40 and the Sirensis highland £65.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Lamasi/sirensis are a great choice. They are group frogs, so you can put in your viv 4 or 5 with no problems. I love the highland: amazing colors! Contamana are larger than other lamasi; Panguana are generally shy. 
As for supplements, I use Repashy, like nearly everyone else here. The basic products are: Repashy Calcium plus and Repashy VitA. Forget other products.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Lamasi/sirensis are a great choice. They are group frogs, so you can put in your viv 4 or 5 with no problems. I love the highland: amazing colors! Contamana are larger than other lamasi; Panguana are generally shy.
> As for supplements, I use Repashy, like nearly everyone else here. The basic products are: Repashy Calcium plus and Repashy VitA. Forget other products.


Thanks for the quick reply. Yeah the group factor was the selling point. I still like vanzolini but they are £55 each. Im just a green frog lover at heart haha


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

As I said lamasi/sirensis are a great choice. But as first frog I always recommend to take bold frogs, otherwise one gets tired watching a viv that looks empty.
First of all, take the frog that you like. But among the frogs mentioned in your first post there are Epipedobates and leucomelas: frogs inexpensive and very bold. 
Among sirensis I know (but I don't keep them) that Contamana are a good size frogs and they are also bolder than others.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

papa_mcknight said:


> the Sirensis highland £65.


Do you realize how cheap that is? I would jump on that in a minute.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> As I said lamasi/sirensis are a great choice. But as first frog I always recommend to take bold frogs, otherwise one gets tired watching a viv that looks empty.
> First of all, take the frog that you like. But among the frogs mentioned in your first post there are Epipedobates and leucomelas: frogs inexpensive and very bold.
> Among sirensis I know (but I don't keep them) that Contamana are a good size frogs and they are also bolder than others.


I don't mind if they are a little shy, i'd be happy to let my viv grow in and become more natural looking, and i'd still be poking my nose in having a look haha. The frogs are just a bonus 

Yeah I love Epipedobates and they were my first choice when I got interested in darts but it's how easy they breed, I don't want to risk getting swamped without means of finding them new homes. The Contamana and Epipedobates are the same price so that works out well for me.

Edit: Epipedobates are £25 each not £35


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Do you realize how cheap that is? I would jump on that in a minute.


How much are they over there? Where i'd order from have them in every now and then, but not very many. I think they have 2 atm so didn't know whether it would be worth buying them and getting more when they get them but there's no way of knowing when that would be.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just a little plant update.

My Annick offset is starting to open up at last 

My Crypt looks like it's blooming and pupping 

Added some more Peperomia Rotundfolia to the left hand side and over the cork bark. I planted African Violet on top of one of the cork towers, see how it goes. I will most likely be putting orchids or Tillandsias up in those corners though. 

From those 3 plants that emerged from my moss mix, 2 look like the same species, they both are small and delicate looking. The other has had a growth spurt, i'm guessing some species of gesneriad, but only time will tell. The moss mix is looking a lot greener and can see individual strands of moss which is cool.

At the moment i'm still waiting to see how the moss mix takes off on the back wall, but if the end result isn't very exciting i'm thinking about moving the Nephrolepis Marisa to the back wall and mounting small broms to the driftwood.

Will either get my girlfriend to take some better pics on her ridiculously expensive phone when she's over or get my photographer friend to bring his camera round next time we have a Call of Duty night


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Took a few more pics. Can see the unknown plant that emerged to the left of the pilea.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It looks like a fern.
If you decide to put in lamasi, it is better if you add some other branch or vine, IMO. For anthonyi, galac or auratus is okay.
However, this your viv claim: "Frogs! Frogs!"


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> It looks like a fern.
> If you decide to put in lamasi, it is better if you add some other branch or vine, IMO. For anthonyi, galac or auratus is okay.
> However, this your viv claim: "Frogs! Frogs!"


I'll have to get a decent pic of it from above without the glass top. Well im waiting for my brom pup to grow so i can remove it and place it on the branch that its next to. Think i definitely want more broms in there tbh, going up the driftwood.
Ive got plenty of java fern atm, keep getting tempted to cover my walls with it haha.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just a few shots of my crypt flowering 

Also i've found 2 small worm-looking things in my viv on the driftwood, they move like leeches. Are they harmless? Couldn't get a decent photo.

Can't tell if they're nemerteans or some kind of Rhynchodemidae.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just out of curiosity, would a group of 6 santa isabel be too many for this viv?

I'll be adding a few more broms pretty soon.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

They are good as the initial group, but the Santa Isabel are very prolific. Two or three pairs will produce many many froglet. If you can, four males and two females.
The viv is very good. However, I would put in more branches and/or rocks to help males to better define their territories. And in the viv you need more spot, otherwise they will fight for the highest place.
Epipedobates are very nice, funny and underrated frogs. I prefer anthonyi Highland/Tierra Alta, but all epips are very nice, IMO.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> They are good as the initial group, but the Santa Isabel are very prolific. Two or three pairs will produce many many froglet. If you can, four males and two females.
> The viv is very good. However, I would put in more branches and/or rocks to help males to better define their territories. And in the viv you need more spot, otherwise they will fight for the highest place.
> Epipedobates are very nice, funny and underrated frogs. I prefer anthonyi Highland/Tierra Alta, but all epips are very nice, IMO.


As always thanks for the quick reply and great advice. Yeah like I said a few comments back their prolificness (if that is a word haha) would be their only drawback for me. I've read a few times that young epis can sometimes take up to a few year for them to produce a good clutch that will give offspring but I don't know if I could risk it.
Yeah im just waiting for my plant seller to get some new stock in and then I will be buying some more broms and adding some more driftwood.
Im just weighing up my options right now. The seller I would be buying from has 6 very young epis as well as the 4 contanama I was looking at. 
Once I have the rest of the plants, have the supplements, I want to get some more isopods and springtails. So hopefully next month could mean frog time


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

A few epiweb progress shots. The mystery plant growing well, and what looks like tiny liverwort looking plants coming through at the bottom of the panel.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It's always nice when plants sprout up unexpectedly in our vivs. 
As for the frogs, what a beautiful doubt: epips or lamasi? 
I suggest you to see them live and pick the ones you like the most. 
Be careful, though: young Santa Isabel are inconspicuous! They put their bright red only later.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> It's always nice when plants sprout up unexpectedly in our vivs.


You're not wrong there, also just noticed my mother brom is sending another pup out


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Not only does my piece of driftwood constantly produce tiny fungi but i've just noticed that it looks like it's sprouting fissidens fontanus as it used to reside in my aquarium. I'll try and get pics up soon


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Not an update as such, and I know im not finished this build but I couldn't help but get excited and want to share my plans for my next build 

Two pieces of driftwood, the main piece standing at 70cm!! The pictures don't do it justice as there is so much depth and detail to it. The plan is to either go for a 24"x18"x36" Exo Terra or a custom euro-style viv around 2'x2'x3'. The euro would give me extra room to put in the water feature that I have in my head.

Inspiration comes mainly from Grimm's Gnarly Jewel, Harpo's Chaos By Design, and Rabu92's Living Room Display Tank.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Had a little tinker with the layout. Lowered the centre piece of dritwood and tied down some of the marisa to get it to bush out. Added some selaginella and moved a few things around. Added some more driftwood and mounted one of the bromeliad offsets (still one developing which will be removed and mounted).


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I think you've done a great tank! It's ready for frogs.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> I think you've done a great tank! It's ready for frogs.


Thanks man  Still got a bit of a nemertean problem but seems to have died down. Need to get some more springtails and isopods in there and try make some cultures of them too incase there is another boom.
A guy local to me has Santa Isabels and says to give him a shout when im ready as he usually has tads and froglets available. Thinking of those over thumbs now just because of the nemerteans, since SI's seem to eat anything from what i've read.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Where did you read this? I have Epipedobates anthonyi "Highland" and I've seen only once a male who accidentally ate a nemertean - because it dangled in front of his snout attracting his predatory instinct. 
Unfortunately, frogs do not eat this crap. You can have some success using woodlice (not trichorhina). I reduced a little this pest with woodlice. But I intend to redo my viv, as soon as possible (not epips viv, where nemertean are under control, but the one of my pumilio Almirante).
However, epips are a great choice for your viv.
I am going to give my new "Highland" froglets to my brother in law, who was fascinated by their boldness, colour and personality.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Where did you read this? I have Epipedobates anthonyi "Highland" and I've seen only once a male who accidentally ate a nemertean - because it dangled in front of his snout attracting his predatory instinct.
> .


Sorry I should have been more clear, I meant as in feeders/livefoods they're not fussy usually but I was hoping that they may help get the numbers down if they see something wriggling infront of them. If I do get any in the next few month chances are they will not have been out the water long.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Nemerteans are highly effective predators. Several times it happened to me to see them "steal" the food to the frog. It seems - I say "seems" - that the common woodlice feed on the young nemertean. In fact, their numbers in my epips viv is now much reduced. But it may be that this is happened because the impoverishment of the microfauna in that viv (no more springtails, only woodlices). 
However, nemerteans are the thing I hate the most in a viv. Luckily I have this pests only in my first two viv because of my ignorance about them.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Yeah i've been meaning to collect some common woodlice for the viv. I actually started pulling the nemerteans and putting them in a container hoping they will survive so I can collect some other common species of insect and see if they feed on the nemerteans.

Dying to start a new build haha!!


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just a little update on this thread.

My nemertean population has dropped dramatically since adding a few common woodlice. A fellow British frogger has had success with using a slice of apple to attract nemerteans and disposing of them like you do with aquarium snails. Unfortunately they turned their nose up at my choice of apple so might be worth buying a selection and see which work. Im getting a few small slugs every now and then too. My springtail population is also bouncing back.

Seeing a lot of new growth coming from my Epiweb moss mix which is great. My Helxine Soleirolii has really come on especially since it was around an inch long strand that I rescued from a dying plant. Switched the gravel in the pool are to Fluval Stratum that I had left over from my aquarium. It has the Nymphoides Taiwan in there still, and also Eleocharis Parvula planted along the banks. Loving the red of my Pilea Involucrata Norfolk, just wish the camera on my phone would show it off better. Growing some some more Pilea Spruceana in the tank atm, not sure if it will be being planted in here though. Just waiting for 2 brom pups to get big enough to remove and mount then I'll assess the nemertean, springtail and isopod situation and then who knows, it could be time to find some lodgers


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just out of curiosity what would you all keep in here?


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Not much has happened with the vivarium lately, just letting it mature. So thought i'd share what else i've been working on. I recently stripped down my aquarium setup and decided to go down riparium road  

It's not 100% finished. The water needs to be lowered a bit more once I get some extra pieces of pipe to lower the outpipe. Just kept it minimally planted, should hopefully grow in and look better in a few month. Will also be getting some new plants for the riparium planters when I get the chance.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

And here is my next money sapping project 

Will be going down the palaudarium road with this one. Due to the driftwood filling the tank, the land section unfortunately won't be able to able to support livestock as it will be open top. I do have an idea what I want to do with it though, which will be a new venture for me


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Nice paludarium. 
This last driftwood is great! It gave me some ideas for a vertical layout - no paludarium or riparium, but a setup for arboreal frog.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Nice paludarium.
> This last driftwood is great! It gave me some ideas for a vertical layout - no paludarium or riparium, but a setup for arboreal frog.


Thanks man  Yeah this driftwood is the one I was going to use vertically for a vivarium but noticed when in this position it could make a great piece of land mass while leaving good swimming space in the aquatic section. I had the Exo Terra Turtle Tank sitting there so thought why not roll with it lol.

Ah sweet, glad it sparked an idea for you  Do you have the piece of driftwood you have in mind for the vivarium or will you now be hunting one down?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I have a wood vaguely similar, but it is too big for my vivs. It comes from my old fish tank, that I dismantled a few months ago to make way for a new frog rack. 
This is the last pic of the tank (100 L) with wood (placed on the side it is vaguely similar to yours).


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

That's a good size, should make an interesting viv feature


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Had a little tinker last night. Soil was a bit boggy, so aired it out and added some more charcoal and orchid bark. The leaves were pretty shot so they were turned over into the soil, so I need to pick up some more when I can.

The corner is getting pretty brom heavy now  There are 3 adults, 3 pulled and mounted pups, 1 attached pup, and the mother brom has just started sending out another 2 pups!

Trimmed the selaginella and spread it around the base of the broms and around the corner to hopefully gets some decent coverage. Decided to plant my silver pilea in the gangway between the driftwood and the other pilea/backwall. Gunna try create a dutch style vivarium instead of aquarium haha 

I moved the driftwood back into its original position, so it sits a lot higher again.

Think I will end up going down the thumbnail path since there is a lot more elevated areas now and are less likely to trample the pileas. The highest temps I have noticed is 28°c so far. What do you think?

*edit* The St Paulia under the driftwood and the 2 crypt pups are just there temporary.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Reticulatas are fine at high temps, but for thumbs it is better if you go down to 26 ° C, because we are in June and you're already at 28 ° C! I have here 32° C outside now, but still 25.6° C in my tanks (24.5° C in my epips tank). 
You can lower the temps with fans, as I do, but you have to increase the mist. I also use LED lights. 
IMO, this viv is ready for frog. You've done a good job!


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Reticulatas are fine at high temps, but for thumbs it is better if you go down to 26 ° C, because we are in June and you're already at 28 ° C! I have here 32° C outside now, but still 25.6° C in my tanks (24.5° C in my epips tank).
> You can lower the temps with fans, as I do, but you have to increase the mist. I also use LED lights.
> IMO, this viv is ready for frog. You've done a good job!


Thanks man. I think you're the only person who looks at this thread haha.

Trust me this country is weird, summer may be coming but that's not a guarantee we will get hot weather haha. That was on one of the hottest days so far, with no window open in my room and with the LED and Exo Terra dual canopy over it. Back to 2 LED canopies now to speed up some growth on everything.

Also the temps and humidity is measured using Exo Terra's thermometer and hygrometer. Pretty sure the hygrometer started becoming inaccurate a while back as most of the time it reads mid 60-70%, even thought it looks and feels much more humid. So chances are the temps may be a little off and will have to be checked another way.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

This had been growing in the axil of my mother brom for quite a while, finally pulled it. Anyone know what it is?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Better one that no one, lol. No ID for the plant, sorry. Today here first wave of summer heat: 31° C at 8 AM (I did not check the temp at noon)!


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Better one that no one, lol. No ID for the plant, sorry. Today here first wave of summer heat: 31° C at 8 AM (I did not check the temp at noon)!


We're lucky if we get a day of 25°C! We aren't expecting any higher anytime soon as far as I know


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

With these temp you can keep all the frogs you want. For me here summer without AC unit is an incredible stress because I'm afraid of losing a few frogs because of the heat. So I breed mainly pums. 
Greetings


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Suppose that is lucky for choosing frogs, but I would like some sun on my skin this summer lol. I'll have the opposite problem to you in the winter, it gets ridiculously cold here so will have to find a way to make sure the temp doesn't drop too low on a night time.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Found a nice piece of driftwood today so decided to start a new build. When this one is nearly ready i'll get all my leaves, springtails and isos all together for both tanks to save time and effort. This is an Exo Terra 45x45x60. In the last few hours i've managed to get through:
False floor built and wrapped. 
Driftwood trimmed and mounted to slate at the base. 
Rear of tank siliconed.

Tomorrow I will get started on the foam background. Will try grab some pics if my phone is in a good mood


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just a few updated pics of this tank. Removed the silver pilea and brought the gully back. Added leaf litter again. Decided that when my other tank is ready to plant, the nephrolepis marisa will be removed from the driftwood and used in there and this driftwood will have some more broms added to it. The moss mix has quite a lot of new growth, what look like small ferns. One is really starting to look like phlebodium aureum. I added a few pieces of java fern from my aquarium months and months ago, that took quite a while to adapt but now looks fine, although it's lost in the peperomia. 

Not sure if anything is going in this tank anymore since im working on another tank. A local store has 4 green sips that I could be tempted for and let them grow out in here till they can be sexed, paired of and the others rehomed. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Imo, it is fine for green sips.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

It is tempting, just to get some experience. Just have a lot going on atm. Especially with this new build i've started. Feel like a one legged cat trying to bury crap on a frozen lake.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Managed to get a few close ups on my phone of the moss mix.

1st pic showing what looks like a few ferns (ignore the piece of marisa on the left that i've mounted to the background)
2nd pic showing liverwort and fern looking plants at the bottom level of the epiweb walls.
3rd pic showing what looks like another species of nephrolepis but leggier.
4th pic showing some of the java fern that has completely adapted to it's emerged form now.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

I think the Marisa could do with a trim...


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## GBR (Jun 7, 2013)

Great looking vivs!


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

GBR said:


> Great looking vivs!


Thanks man. It's all the same viv, just chopping and changing things every now and then


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Just a few pics while I was doing a little maintenance. The bromeliad corner is filling out nicely, will have quite a few pups to be possibly removed and remounted soon.

The Small creeping plant that grew out of one of the broms that I posted before is a trooper and has grew ridiculously, reaching a height of over 6" before I moved it today to tinker. I've threw it back in on top of the leaf litter to watch it bounce back and see how it does.

I also snapped a new plant that has emerged from the moss mix, if anyone can tell me what the large green, spade shaped leaf is that would be great.


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## scooter7728 (Sep 1, 2014)

love that epiweb background cool concept. Wish I could get it over here in the US. They thought of everything.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Wow, the tank has really looking great! Nice job!



scooter7728 said:


> love that epiweb background cool concept. Wish I could get it over here in the US. They thought of everything.


We can get epiweb her in the US, a member on here named Folius carries it. Here is his website folius.com.

John


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks  The marisa might be going into another tank im working on when it's ready to plant, making way for some of the brom pups in here to extend out further into the tank.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

A cheeky little shot with the lights on the low setting before lights off. Had to raise the lights using some old pieces of wood as I was getting a bit of burn on some of the higher broms.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Very very nice! What are you waiting for put in some frogs? Have you decided what frogs?


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Very very nice! What are you waiting for put in some frogs? Have you decided what frogs?


I'd love to but money is tight right now, looking for work atm. Still not sure what i'd put in here, I guess it would depend what was available at the time. I don't think there's a species I haven't thought about putting in here since I started this haha.


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

papa_mcknight said:


> A cheeky little shot with the lights on the low setting before lights off. Had to raise the lights using some old pieces of wood as I was getting a bit of burn on some of the higher broms.


What kind of lights are those? They look a lot like Current USA's Orbit Marine, is that what they are? I'm really considering getting one. How do you like them?

Two of them, too... That's a hefty bill right there!


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

zimmerj said:


> What kind of lights are those? They look a lot like Current USA's Orbit Marine, is that what they are? I'm really considering getting one. How do you like them?
> 
> Two of them, too... That's a hefty bill right there!


They're two 18" Beamswork LED fixtures, got them for around £50 for the two I think. I love them, the growth under them is great. Just wish I bought the timer module to go with them


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Not really an update but it seems like the tropical woodlice and the common woodlice are reproducing well. Constantly seeing young of both species crawling around. Still pulling nemerteans every now and then though. They just don't seem to be attracted to bananas or apples like they do in other peoples tanks! Found some nice big adult woodlice and pillbugs while doing some gardening for a friend today so chucked those in too. 

I also realised that some of my spare substrate that i've been keeping in an old black plastic box has a decent number of springtails and some tropical woodlice young in there. So i'll be keeping an eye on that and hopefully start some cultures out of them.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Here's how the tank is currently looking after removing the mass of Nephrolepis Marisa from the driftwood. Attached a few brom pups to it to add some more elevated areas but still have driftwood to climb on which frogs wouldn't be able to do with the Marisa there.

With the Marisa gone im hoping the Selaginella will continue to spread and cascade over the coco huts and body of the driftwood.

I've hacked into the Pilea to try bush it out as it was getting tall and leggy, and planted off cuts to the opposite side of the tank to add some colour there.

Still a few little things i'd like to tweak in here before I leave it to grow in and become a jungle again


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Very very nice! I say it not because we are friends, but because it is really z nice tank.


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Very very nice! I say it not because we are friends, but because it is really z nice tank.


Thanks man I really appreciate it  

Hopefully looks better when it grows in again


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Well im sad to say that this tank is no longer in my possession. Due to needing the space, lighting and cash I parted with it today  It has went to a decent guy who took an instant shine to it after seeing it online, and im sure will take good care of it. Ironically he has met up with and bought some Orange Galacs from a guy I was planning on purchasing some from for this tank, guess my tank was destined for them haha. I've told him he'll need to keep me updated on its growth and of the inhabitants when they settle so hopefully will be able to do a few more updates to this thread in the future for anyone who has followed it. To everyone who commented on this thread and helped me on my way I thank you whole heartedly


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## Temp6 (Apr 21, 2015)

I know this post is old but I have a quick question for you. I am building a new viv out of the same exo terra (24x18x18) and was wondering what you used for a top on this viv. Also, what did you use to keep the excess water drained?


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Temp6 said:


> I know this post is old but I have a quick question for you. I am building a new viv out of the same exo terra (24x18x18) and was wondering what you used for a top on this viv. Also, what did you use to keep the excess water drained?


I had a glass top cut but left a 2" gap at the front and made a simple vent out of a length of egg crate wrapped in tights until I found the materials over here to make a proper screen vent as we don't have them readily available over in the UK. I never did get round to that though.

As for draining the water I simply used a turkey baster to remove excess water from the pool area. There was a 2" false floor made from egg crate in this build with a recess for the pool.


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## Temp6 (Apr 21, 2015)

papa_mcknight said:


> I had a glass top cut but left a 2" gap at the front and made a simple vent out of a length of egg crate wrapped in tights until I found the materials over here to make a proper screen vent as we don't have them readily available over in the UK. I never did get round to that though.
> 
> As for draining the water I simply used a turkey baster to remove excess water from the pool area. There was a 2" false floor made from egg crate in this build with a recess for the pool.


Awesome, thanks for your insight


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

Temp6 said:


> Awesome, thanks for your insight


No worries


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## janeb (May 24, 2015)

This viv is stunning even better that I have it! I have re homed the orange galacts and I'm going to put some blue azzies into the tank within the next few weeks


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

janeb said:


> This viv is stunning even better that I have it! I have re homed the orange galacts and I'm going to put some blue azzies into the tank within the next few weeks


?


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## papa_mcknight (Feb 3, 2013)

I sold this tank in January to a guy so I could concentrate my other tank as I needed both my lights for it. He had it for a little while, added a load more plants and put three orange galacs in there. I guess it was a passing phase for him and he sold to Jane. She posted on a local facebook frog group showing off the vivarium she bought and I obviously recognised it straight away haha


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