# Why Europe Is Better Than Us... at Vivarium



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

We have all admired the Vivariums that are built across the pond. These are some amazing ones. All from terracom dot tk. All hosted on my own site.

One thing I think we can learn from our European brothers and sisters is size! I am not saying there are no 10 verts there. But it seems to me that they go for more quality over quantity. I could be wrong, but it seems that way. Also, plants. They seem more advanced in their use of plants. Although, I think the US hobby is moving more and more in that direction. To be fair, many in Europe have access to tank styles we do not, not easily anyway. This allows them easier planting and an easier build.

What are your thoughts? Am I wrong? 

Nathalie Popovic









Ed Smit









Davy Noelmans









Ton Imming









Luc Somers









Ren Schlter









Robin Paap


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Truly stunning! Tho I have seen some very nice american made vivs, I still think that your right when you say that they got us beat in quality. Im always amazed at the custom made tanks they have across the pond and Im really tired of the mass produced aquariums we got here.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Don't get me wrong, there is some amazing work here too. We are also years behind them, the hobby has been big there much longer. But I do think they give us some insiration. I would love if we could get tanks like that!


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

when did the hobby start over there? I know it started here around late 80s early 90s


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I remember reading that it was in the 70's. Either way, I think it has just expanded there to a larger degree. I feel the hobby here is just starting to take off...and even then it is not a common hobby at all.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Try the late 60's, early 70's here, maybe 10 years earlier in Europe. They just have a different view of how to do things than what's popular here in the US. The same tanks = just as nice and large can be found here, their just not as popular. More is better in the US as far a number of frogs and tanks go.

And were not years behind Europe anymore. Anything they can do we can do. For the most part we choose not to. We choose to do things differently.

Best,

Chuck



AlexRible said:


> when did the hobby start over there? I know it started here around late 80s early 90s


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## edward (Apr 20, 2008)

I started around 1970/71 and already the hobby was well established in
central Europe (Germany, Switzerland, Holland etc.). Back then you could
already buy vivariums specifically for herps in the local pet shops. There
were even pet shops that specialized in herps back then and good books
on the hobby. The magazine 'herpetofauna' came out in 1979 (still have the
first copy), 'Salamander und Molche' by Kurt Rimpp in 1978 and 'Froesche und
Kroeten' by Rainer Schulte in 1980 and don't get me started on the herps
you could get back then in Europe!


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Wow, I did not know it went that far back Chuck. I guess what I read was incorrect. I wish that style was more popular though.

Ha ha, thanks for the insight Ed.


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

interesting ^^ I always thought americans in some ways have the wrong attitude toward dart frogs. Kinda like "I must collect them all". Witch if you think about it really isn't fair to the frogs, to try to jam all the 10 gallon verts you can on a rack. Where as europeans concentrate toward building there vivs, witch for me really is the fun part. Also I think that they try to give the frogs as much space as they possibly can afford.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Absolutely, in the mid 90s I saw vivaria's website, decided their tanks were too expensive but were the way to go at the time, got a 60 or 65 gal hex tank(don't remember), ordered cocos panels and peat bricks from them, and set it up for histrionicus using peat bricks directly on the glass bottom as a substrate with a small running water area, tried to model it after their stuff minus the front door


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

This is a very interesting thread, good discussion topic. I agree with what everyone has said, but I think that it also has to do with what we have available, and also I think we look at those vivs and try to replicate them, but we don't know the small details about the vivs construction, what type of plants they have etc. The only info I have seen readily availabe is that thread that was about how to make the vivs, and even then I THINK the author was still getting the info as he wrote the thread.

I think our patience level on what is " growing in" I dont think I have ever seen one of those vivs just after it is planted. 

We are not different creatures or anything, we simply have a different way of doing things and different circumstances.

just my thoughts...


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## rollinkansas (Jun 9, 2008)

Ive had many discussions with my german buddies about this. The main difference I think, like said before is that they prefer bigger tank and fewer species than smaller tanks and more species.

In fact, I tried to work out a trade with one for this coming December Hamm show, and he said he had no room. Because hed rather keep what he has, then add a new smaller tank just to get a new species.

I kind of like it better though, because his tanks look amazing, and he still gets to keep what he enjoys. Here in the US it seems like a game of who can fit as many tanks in a certain area as possible and still have the animal live.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

What kind of lights do they use for those vivs? It appears they have dense growth throughout the vertical space.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

markbudde said:


> What kind of lights do they use for those vivs? It appears they have dense growth throughout the vertical space.


The three most popular lighting options here are PL lighting , T5 and T8 lamps. For taller tanks most commonly HQI beamers are used.


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

Double post see below


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

I don't know if it's really true what you guys are stating! We do have some amazing vivs but so do you guys! The thing is, that in Holland for example there are people which have a Showtank and some are the breeders with breeder tanks. 

I have seen quite some breeders here in Holland now and most of them have a plain breeder tank, with plain walls and background and some simple plants.

But some also have the greatest showtanks!

So my opinion is that most of the breeders in the US have some great breedertanks. I have seen some 10 gl tanks that are far better than some dutch breedertanks. 

What I am saying is, that I think it's someone's personal view on how their tanks look and also their creativity. We can get some nice plants, but you guys can get the same AND MORE!


Maybe this is just me and some other European can chime in, but I won't say European tanks are better/nicer that US tanks! In size maybe, but in looks...?


Greetings Dennis Molenaar
Holland
Europe


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

The big viv's like said are show vivaria not breeding vivaria, I've visited many a european hobbyist and the breeding vivaria are just as good on both sides.. apart from fronts of the actual glass box.. it's far easier to work in rather than down.

I've had the pleasure of visiting Rana over in Holland and man all his vivaria are spectacular  there's a few extremely basic vivs but these are for sale frogs not his breeding groups or personal collection.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

MJ said:


> I've had the pleasure of visiting Rana over in Holland and man all his vivaria are spectacular




I agree 100%


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i am not sure if that is a good statement!! although the European tanks are great, there are many here in the US that have great vivariums, i woudl say they are more advance, but not nescesarily better.


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## RandalG (Nov 7, 2008)

When I first become interested in the hobby back in about 2001 I couldn't find anywhere locally (us) to get a pre-assembled viv so I bit the bullet and got one from Vivaria at a great expense but I'm happy I did as it has served me well.
Although I get a lot of compliments many people think I'm crazy spending that much on a viv but when you think about it there are many other hobbies people spend thousands of dollars on and don't even think about it like golf or fishing as some of my friends do but since it's more main stream it's more acceptable.
I must agree the Dutch have some of the nicest vivs around I'm sure many of you if not all have seen this page.It's one of my faves and I've used it as inspiration over the years when it comes to planting my own tank.

Dutch vivariums


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## postal (Aug 12, 2008)

I think that clearly, they've paved the way with ideas and practices of what a tank should/could look like.

There is no reason people in the US cant learn from their ideas and build to the same level. It's a matter of patience, dedication and a thick wallet... AND A PLAN! A GOOD PLAN....

No matter the size of the tank, it boils down to what species will be kept, and how well and in depth you plan the tank. Spend far more time designing the tank than building the tank.

In typical American fashion, I think many treat it like "fast food". I want it ****NOW****! and if they plan at all, it's not enough. I forgot who, but someone from EU recently posted a thread about an orchid terrarium asking for help. (forgot if it was this forum or vivarium forum- thought it was here) His sketches, plan of hardscape- expected plant landscape and design with water flow, cool venting, lighting and heat were all planned out and accounted for far more advanced than about anything else I've EVER seen on this forum.

Many sketches by Americans (no offence) look like a 5 yr old with a crayon and paper napkin compared to this guys plans. I think this is the primary reason. Looking far more into the design elements and plants and where they should be placed. Many Euro vives seem overplanted to me, yet they got the understanding of each species and growing habits to place them appropriately without interfearing with other plants. Better grasp of the plants and growth habits, and far better planning is what I think it really boils down to in the end.

I've done the same because of the plant swap. I designed and sketched and had a good idea of the space I had to work with and the types of plants I could place where... then I recieved about a dozen cuttings, and just the other day got another good bunch of stuff from a nursery. I went into panic mode, and threw everything in the vive to keep it alive and have yet to redesign my tank to accomodate the new plants. Some long term changes need to be made, but in the short term I threw everything in it. I need another tank just to place plants until I get around to them in a "new plan" taking all the plants into consideration. I'll have to redo my entire tank to place the new plants and existing plants appropriately and attractively- taking into account how things grow and where... the vines growing up the walls need space with means I cant place other things there.... etc... Place the small stuff up front for a good view, and layer other things in the right spaces of the tank for their needs and to look attractive... Whole lot of planning needs to be done- not just toss it in...

That's my opinion from what I've seen anyway.


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## RandalG (Nov 7, 2008)

True it is a learning experience. I've replanted my tank several times once due to necessity. And I've learned from my mistakes. Makes the hobby that more interesting.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

On a quick scan through the thread... one of the things I haven't seen mentioned is that the Europeans have been doing this a lot longer than most of the Americans (pictures or drawings of elaborately designed amphibian enclosures can easily be found in books as far back as 1984 if not further (see TFH's Terrarium Animals, Breeding, Care, Maintenance by Zimmerman). 

20 years ago, a lot of what you take for granted today wasn't readily available to the average person and certainly not via a readily accessiable format such as that provided by the internet. For example, you had to wait for a price list of plants to be mailed to you.. If you were lucky your local pet store carried drift wood... Fruit flies were really only available from a biosupply store.. and few people had dendrobatids at all..... 

This is different than across the pond as there was a better network of hobbyists communicating with each other back at that time... 

Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Heck about 12 years ago if you wanted to know what was for sale here you has to wait for Chuck Powell's newsletter. The art of perfecting Vivaria has been taken to a very high level in Europe, the first true Vivs i saw here were at Volker Annenbach's house in DC in the mid 90's. We have some fine craftsman here now (Ben Eiben and Zac Zamora come to mind) but we have years of catching up to do. Most of us here in the US used converted fish tanks because that is all we had available, vivs are slowly becoming more widely used.
I for one would love to see more availibility when it comes to enclosures and i still think this is a rising demand area of our hobby.
I applaud the amazing displays i have seen from our friends across the pond, I would imagine a few years from now we will regularly see the same here in the US.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok everybody ready for the answer? Its a simple one...

WE ARE LAZY! Sad but true. We are also very greedy this means we cut corners to get more for less. Without starting a huge debate this could also be part of our recent economic issues.

Id bet many people across the pond have a hobby or 2. Not 3-4-5-6 that are all expensive.

I love to try things but recently I find myself questioning a lot of my actions and spending. It is become very disturbing to dig into my habits like this.

For example I have this hobby which is my main hobby, and is far from cheap but over the years has paid for some of my other hobbies up until this past year.

Just the short list and in order:
- Frogs
- Photography (trying to force myself back into this one )
- Cars\racing ( i may get out of this one just too much money )
- RC airplanes ( i've done ok not going crazy on this one, but its a blast )
- Computers ( its my career so i've backed off a ton at home )
- Gaming ( I have completely stopped this as its a total waste of time I do still play a tad of Madden on PSP )

Another thing that may also be part of it we here in the US have a pet store on nearly every corner and they all sell crazy cheap tanks. I can get 10gals for $10, and 15gal standards for under $20. No matter how cool the self made tank is they are not very cost effective in the US.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Id also am interested in if many of the people in the European hobby keep more than a couple of tanks. I have the impression that they have a couple very nice tanks and not tons like many of us in the US.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

kyle1745 said:


> Id also am interested in if many of the people in the European hobby keep more than a couple of tanks. I have the impression that they have a couple very nice tanks and not tons like many of us in the US.


In any of the homes I have been to looking at frogs here, I can say that even the breeders are as crazy about frogs as us Americans.  Many have whole rooms or basements dedicated to amphibs/reps like in the states.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

So do many Euro hobbyists 

I think it also has something to do with the instant gratification generation that seems to have America in a hold (sorry guys experienced enough to say that though). 

I want it and I want it now.. 

Also there's the "frog keepers class system" to deal with it seems the more you have the more people respect you which sadly isn't the case I've seen people buy tons of frogs and a bunch of rare species simply to swing their frog balls around in the "play ground" with little ability to keep even the least demanding of frog. 

So people feel the need to buy buy buy with the mind set it's OK "I have a 10 gallon" sorry but 10 gallon vivaria are useless past the point of froglet raising and or QT tanks.. 

Could they do this when spending so much on a vivaria system? I doubt it.

I think Kyle has hit a good point on the other hobbies.. Do I have any others here? no I don't and few people who do this as a hobby do from my experience over here.. with the exception of travel and photography which are intertwined into the frog hobby.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

It`s more about making money from breeding frogs here in the US. Not to cost effective if your spending all your money on vivs.
The one thing the Europeons were impressed w/ us is our willingness to donate to frog conservation in the wild, so maybe most of us are donating our profits to conservation?


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