# Some hybrid pics



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I was a little surprised to see these at the SD Wild animal park. They are labeled as tincs, but they are pretty obviously Auratus/Tinc crosses. I'd guess they were produced from the mixed species exhibit nearby. Thought people might like some reference pics.


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## troy255 (May 31, 2009)

Let's hope this doesn't start another debate. They are not as bad looking as some of the hybrids.


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## brog32 (Oct 28, 2005)

They are very cool looking.. but a shame, and we all know where this is going!


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## -Jex- (Mar 29, 2008)

And the can of worms has been opened again lol!


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

Should I.... say....

I find them kind of cute, better then lots of hybrids. It's weird seeing the auratus skin blown up on a tinc body...

Don't hurt me


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

kill them with fire!

kidding. They look cool, good catch though. You should call them up and tell them.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

those are pretty nice looking


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Even _i've_ gotta say, there are some cool colours in those.... That being said, I find them pretty ugly. Not because of the colours, the shape, it looks awkward. Still not as bad as some of the other hybrids I've seen, there was an auratus x leuc hybrid I saw that was hideous.

Anyway, boo for animal parks willing to parade these animals.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Beautiful Disaster. . . . 


Boo to the zoo for raising and parading these frogs.​


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

Dane said:


> I was a little surprised to see these at the SD Wild animal park. They are labeled as tincs, but they are pretty obviously Auratus/Tinc crosses. I'd guess they were produced from the mixed species exhibit nearby. Thought people might like some reference pics.


You said the SD animal park? As in San Diego? If so I know for a fact that Sea World in San Diego has a mixed tank of wouldn't you guess it Tincs and Auratus. I was there over the winter with my sister and I was pretty disappointed when I looked in that tank.


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## fraser2009 (Jan 4, 2009)

those are intresting ,hybrid pics are in short supplies. its a bit odd a zoo would allow hybrids to be produced but lets hope people can be mature and leave this thread as discussion of the pics and not peoples battle over hybrids


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## bmasar (Dec 13, 2007)

The mixed tank set-up the WAP has going is pretty disappointing. I've seen large mixed tanks at other zoos that seem to do okay, but the WAP tank size is pretty small for the amount of frogs they put in there, mixed species or not. The adult auratus in the mixed tank are very thin--that alone is enough evidence something is wrong.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

chinoanoah said:


> kill them with fire!
> 
> kidding. They look cool, good catch though. You should call them up and tell them.


Haha, I'm honestly shocked someone hasn't said that in a serious context yet.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

wow beautiful frog. very nice looking.. soo lets see if the witch hunt begins.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

And what do we burn besides witches?.... More witches!!!!


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## andy.fabitz (Jan 26, 2009)

gross.....


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## alluringeli (Apr 20, 2009)

those are some nice looking frogs....


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

Nice catch these are NOT pure tincs... the third picture with the two tincs .. the closest one almost has a partial dorsum pattern of a truncatus if the stripes came together more rounded... Peter


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

fraser2009 said:


> those are intresting ,hybrid pics are in short supplies. its a bit odd a zoo would allow hybrids to be produced but lets hope people can be mature and leave this thread as discussion of the pics and not peoples battle over hybrids


I don't know about anyone else, but I"m battled out for a little while. We just had a long discussion about it over at the "general" forum.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

throw them in the pond! if they float then they are witches......and we burn them!

haha, anyway i like the colors but not the shape. the only other cool looking hybrids ive seen are tinc morphs that have been mixed and just look like another kind of tinc morph.

im getting sick of seeing mix tanks like this at zoos. are they that dumb????


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

thedude said:


> im getting sick of seeing mix tanks like this at zoos. are they that dumb????


simply put... yes. [hence, the mixed morphs]


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

batrachiophyle said:


> simply put... yes. [hence, the mixed morphs]


Careful now, there are several very intelligent, very respected zoo employees on this forum who might take offense to this.

The rational behind zoo setups is not as straightforward as one might think and has been discussed before on this site.

Not defending hybrids, just zoos 

Chris


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Phyllobater said:


> Careful now, there are several very intelligent, very respected zoo employees on this forum who might take offense to this.
> 
> The rational behind zoo setups is not as straightforward as one might think and has been discussed before on this site.
> 
> ...


Having mixed tanks yes, producing hybrids NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Really, I just get back into town and am so excited to view my long missed DB and this is what we are still discussing...

I have been advised by my friends on this forum to stay out of discussion related to this subject matter so I will say good day sir...I SAID GOOD DAY!


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

swampfoxjjr said:


> so I will say good day sir...I SAID GOOD DAY!


Lol!!!! Hilarious


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

Too funny… That 70’s Show is on in the other room…

I completely understand why zoo’s are motivated to keep mixed tanks. Very similar creatures with the same environmental needs which do not have aggression issues when kept in the right numbers for a large cage… Since it’s (partially) their goal to display as wide of a variety of animals as possible to the paying customers, it makes sense…

I do agree it seems a bit off that they are displaying hybrids. I find it even more off that they are doing so and mislabeling them. There is a good chance this is an honest mistake that was overlooked. I suggest a little simple communication in the form of a letter, email and/or phone call to give them the information they may not have… 

Let’s keep it constructive guys! So far so good!!!


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## osn (Dec 18, 2008)

There is a Tropical Place displaying animals called "Halmstad Tropikhus" in Sweden that has simular animals in display. Also leucomelas-auratus crosses and all kinds of mixes between diffrent auratus. 

They just let alot of diffrent frogs in there and what happens happens.

It feels really bad to see this in display for people.


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

hmm... I have auratus... and I have cobalts... sweet....

jk. There is a large mixed species tank at Woodland park zoo here in Wa. and it has leuks and azureus and maybe something else in it, and i have wondered if they do anything if offspring that look funny show up in the tank ever...


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## asplundii (Jul 15, 2008)

thedude said:


> im getting sick of seeing mix tanks like this at zoos. are they that dumb????





batrachiophyle said:


> simply put... yes. [hence, the mixed morphs]


You know, this has finally cinched it for me. I have watched all these tempests in a tea cup over this foolish hybrid stuff over the years and not thought much of it but to see a group of hobbyists make such slanderous comments about serious professional people, people doing real and important work on conservation and protection, some of whom I know and respect, has finally pushed me over the edge. There is a level of arrogance here that simply transcends my ability to comprehend. So I am done here, Mods, Admin, feel free to delete my account (not that any one here would necessarily care). There are many more places I can get information where the expertise of professionals is respected rather than treated like crap.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

asplundii said:


> slanderous comments about serious professional people, people doing real and important work on conservation and protection


I'm assuming you are ticked off at the anti-zoo postings....

We ALL know why zoos keep mixed species displays. 

1. Available display space is at a premium. The zoo cannot afford to replicate the land area and spacial requirements that are common in the wild...hence the smaller size exhibits - which are larger than most hobby vivariums btw.

2. There is acknowledged need to create a "vibrant" teeming jungle with many different colors of animals to catch the eye of the admission paying public, for which there would be no zoo, otherwise. 

3.The Zoo (hopefully) has some staff with Biology and Herpetology degrees and experience to diligently provide the degree of extra care and attention required for the mixed species exhibit.

Zoo Mixed species displays are certainly not about conservation and protection or anything other that the three issues above.

Are you just mad because some members are passionate and don't like the mixed zoo exhibit and that it provides a horrible example for the budding new frog keeper? Because it does provide a horrible example.

You gotta just get over that....


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

Although it is their job to provide a variety of animals to entertain the public, the health/welfare of the animals should come first. Why show unhealthy/unnatural animals to the public? Places like this are supposed to educate the public about wildlife to help them understand the animals more and ensure the species survival. By displaying unhealthy and/or unnatural animals, are we misinforming them? I got into darts because I saw some at an aquarium. There were several species kept together, which I did not know to be wrong at the time. I started researching and set up a tank, got 2 leucs, 2 azureus, 2 auratus all juvies, all in a 40 breeder. The breeder I got them from was at the Tampa Reptile show in fall of 2007, I dont know who, but he said all these species could be kept together. After researching more, I realized the mistake I had made and that I had been misinformed so I separated them all. Luckily they were all juvies, so aggression wasnt as big a deal at the time. Please do not bash me for this, as I did not know at the time. I have since done much more research and all of my frogs are doing just fine in their own terrariums.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually contrary to your assertian Zoos are not acting as role models for "newbies" with respect to mixed exhibits....the message most Zoos would tell you is don't keep them at all..... That is like saying the local zoo is also a role where people should keep great apes or that a demolition derby is a role model to go out and run into other people's cars.....
If you want to be honest, that is an interpretation that is due to the imagination of the visitor and out of the control of the zoo. Zoos are not there to tell you how to keep your pets, in fact there not even there to tell that they should be kept as pets, that is up to the hobby to discuss and deal with.....

I don't have a lot of time in my life right now to deal with a lot of extraneous issues but I am going to say that the continued anti-zoo bias on this and other forums really impacts the sharing of information.......

Ed


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

I did not say zoos encourage people to want these animals as pets, I said they are supposed to educate and entertain. I was using my situation as an example of how in some instances people are misinformed. Having multiple species in together makes people think they are supposed to be together, when in fact they are not and would not come into contact with one another in the wild. Many people arent aware that darts are kept as pets in captivity, unless they do research, like I did.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Ed said:


> Actually contrary to your assertian Zoos are not acting as role models for "newbies" with respect to mixed exhibits....the message most Zoos would tell you is don't keep them at all..... That is like saying the local zoo is also a role where people should keep great apes or that a demolition derby is a role model to go out and run into other people's cars.....
> If you want to be honest, that is an interpretation that is due to the imagination of the visitor and out of the control of the zoo. Zoos are not there to tell you how to keep your pets, in fact there not even there to tell that they should be kept as pets, that is up to the hobby to discuss and deal with.....
> 
> I don't have a lot of time in my life right now to deal with a lot of extraneous issues but I am going to say that the continued anti-zoo bias on this and other forums really impacts the sharing of information.......
> ...


Well crap, I almost completed my hippo pool and elephant island


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

To reiterate Ed's point, Zoos and Aquariums are not "designed" to educate the public on captive husbandry. Exhibits/Displays are a way of instilling a connection with wildlife in people/visitors that will hopefully promote them to want to protect those animals and their habitats. Your average visitor could care less if an animal is a hybrid whether it's a frog, wild cat, monkey, goat, whatever. The effect on that person is not going to be diminished because that individual animal might never occur in the wild. They will look at the exhibit, hopefully have a connection to the natural beauty of the animal and its enclosure and come away with a "macro" appreciation of amphibians and their habitat and the importance of preserving them in the wild. The hobby and AZA institutions in general have different goals/agendas, yes some overlap but the differences are important and not to be overlooked.


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

nevermind...


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Ed said:


> I don't have a lot of time in my life right now to deal with a lot of extraneous issues but I am going to say that the continued anti-zoo bias on this and other forums really impacts the sharing of information.......
> 
> Ed


In my opinion this has a much greater negitive impact than hybrids ever could


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

rmelancon said:


> Your average visitor could care less if an animal is a hybrid whether it's a frog, wild cat, monkey, goat, whatever.


I knew the Zoo talk would bring Ed out...

I LOVE Zoos and I am a hobbyist (obviously)

But

Wow...that is hardly an excuse or license to display unnatural animals or unnatural display settings.

Why not go the extra distance and provide a completely natural display, not jam packed with "many colors" ?

There are some kids that spend more than 1.8 seconds peering into a frog display..and will grow up to be researchers, hobbyists or scientists. They will remember the cross morph species and the exact composition of species on display when they grow up...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I also love zoos. They can be done very well, and bieng able to see animals in person really helps people to make a connection they just cant get from pictures, something I feel is very important for the conservation movement.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> In my opinion this has a much greater negitive impact than hybrids ever could


Nate,

I agree....Ed not having enough time to post is terrible. 

Seriously....Negative zoo talk? Come on....we all Like Zoos! If there is a poorly designed exhibit or animal, deal with the criticism people.

"Hybrids" infiltrating the hobby are horrible...

and

Zoos with poorly designed exhibits need to be called on it...


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

the exhibit looks fine to me. The animal is misslabled but i don't see that being worth a crap storm. And from the 1st post it doesn't look like they designed the animal either (which i still think looks nice) 
I have not followed the hybrid threads, and dont plan on entering the debate but every on should remember that 


> "Hybrids" infiltrating the hobby are horrible...


is an opinion not a fact, and should be treated like one. 
I see alot of people here acting like McCarthy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

kamazza said:


> I did not say zoos encourage people to want these animals as pets, I said they are supposed to educate and entertain. I was using my situation as an example of how in some instances people are misinformed. Having multiple species in together makes people think they are supposed to be together, when in fact they are not and would not come into contact with one another in the wild. Many people arent aware that darts are kept as pets in captivity, unless they do research, like I did.


There is a problem with this argument. Yes there are things to be learned at the zoo. Nobody will deny that. But you hit the nail on the head in your own post. Its not up to the zoo to get the new hobbiest to do research. The zoo is there to show you some animals that you may never see otherwise and if you decide to take the endeavor into the hobby its your responsibility to research these animals and do what you can to keep them successfully. In this hobby if you don't research these animals then you're unlikely to have any success. If a visitor to the zoo decides to set up a tank based on what they saw at the zoo's display, that's their choice. Without researching what they have it should have no impact on the hobby anyways and quite frankly, if they don't want to research then I don't want them in the hobby. The zoo does a great job at generating interest. Let's not blame them for their visitors lack of responsibility. Without zoos, many of the members of this forum may not be here and this hobby may not even exist.


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

Yes. Im just another idiot who decided to post my opinion and got bashed for it. Guess I will no longer be doing so. I dont post to argue, so I wont. Cant beat the site for info so I think Ill stick to just searching only for a bit....


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> the exhibit looks fine to me. The animal is misslabled but i don't see that being worth a crap storm. And from the 1st post it doesn't look like they designed the animal either (which i still think looks nice)
> I have not followed the hybrid threads, and dont plan on entering the debate but every on should remember that
> 
> is an opinion not a fact, and should be treated like one.
> I see alot of people here acting like McCarthy


I'll second that. It would almost be more beneficial for the secretive hybrid breeders/scientists to start selling their frogs so all this debate and arguing on wheter it will eventually happen will end and the hobby can move on rather than listening to this for another year or two until it does happen. Even if it means a division of the community and we end up with the purists and the hobbiest. At least this way a more powerful effort to track the bloodlines might come of it and those that are in this for a casual hobby can simply enjoy their frogs and not be harrassed if they think a hybrid looks cool.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> I have not followed the hybrid threads, and dont plan on entering the debate but every on should remember that
> 
> is an opinion not a fact, and should be treated like one.
> I see alot of people here acting like McCarthy


You are ultimately correct on the opinion part, but whether you realize it not, Nate, Those crossed frogs are now entering the hobby in some numbers and a little to close for my comfort (East Coast).

I think McCarthy and even J. Hoover may have been concerned with what the private citizen thought ,said, wrote and what he did in the confines and sanctity of his home and that's a civil rights violation in my book. There are people currently handing out these frogs to many other people on a whim....little different.

The time has come for me, at least, to start doing background checks on the people I look to acquire frogs from.....my policy and my opinion, of course.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> The time has come for me, at least, to start doing background checks on the people I look to acquire frogs from.....my policy and my opinion, of course.


I think you hit the nail on the head. I would believe that there are more hybrids(or cross morphs) out there then anyone is aware of and only by doing extensive research on the background of the breeders should one consider their frogs true bloodlines. from what I have been reading the past few days it makes me wonder if even some of the "reputable" breeders are all that trustworthy??


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> I'll second that. It would almost be more beneficial for the secretive hybrid breeders/scientists to start selling their frogs so all this debate and arguing on wheter it will eventually happen will end and the hobby can move on rather than listening to this for another year or two until it does happen. Even if it means a division of the community and we end up with the purists and the hobbiest. At least this way a more powerful effort to track the bloodlines might come of it and those that are in this for a casual hobby can simply enjoy their frogs and not be harrassed if they think a hybrid looks cool.


What do you think has been happening for the last 20 or so years? Do you think frog breeding and the potential or eventuality of crossed morphs is only 3 or so years old? This issue and argument is nothing new....

The reason you don't see the morphs in any large numbers is that the majority of the hobby resists and dislikes it.

If they were in demand and popular, why aren't we seeing them for sale at White Plains NY or Reptile shows in Columbus?

I guess all the interest and activity is "underground" because of all the bad sentiments of those people on DB and DD and DFF....


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> What do you think has been happening for the last 20 or so years? Do you think frog breeding and the potential or eventuality of crossed morphs is only 3 or so years old? This issue and argument is nothing new....
> 
> The reason is you don't see the morphs in any large numbers is that the majority of the hobby resists and dislikes it.
> 
> ...


It is all underground due to the abusive attitude some take on the issue. I've seen what I thought were Hybrids(I could not verify that 100%) in St Louis and Kansas City reptile shows and I have personally seen some locally breed hybrids. I believe they have started to show up at one of the meetings/shows you attend just not technically "for sale" yet. The hobby is still small compared to other pet hobbies but it has become larger over say the last three years and the topic is revisited more and more. The interest on this board for information and pictures is weekly if not daily now. DD has almost no traffic and I can't speak to DFF because I do not think I have ever visited that site. 

I agree with you, I see no reason for the hybrids. I really do not like the hybrid/crosses with snakes and geckos. I just do not see why both cannot exist without all the arguing??


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

It can't be underground....

I have attended a ton of reptile shows since the 80's and I just haven't seen the interest for designer frogs compared to reptiles and I , admittedly, have always found that odd.

It is FAR easier to produce frogs than Geckos and Ball pythons....cheaper too.....so what would be the holdup??

Why hasn't anyone produced day glow colors or crazy-blended colors?

We already have fine spot and banded selections....


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> You are ultimately correct on the opinion part, but whether you realize it not, Nate, Those crossed frogs are now entering the hobby in some numbers and a little to close for my comfort (East Coast).
> 
> I think McCarthy and even J. Hoover may have been concerned with what the private citizen thought ,said, wrote and what he did in the confines and sanctity of his home and that's a civil rights violation in my book. There are people currently handing out these frogs to many other people on a whim....little different.
> 
> The time has come for me, at least, to start doing background checks on the people I look to acquire frogs from.....my policy and my opinion, of course.



im going to take a min to agree with the fact that the People reserve the right to know who Where certain people stand in the trade and who is pro cross projects and who is not. but it appears to me that this is just one big misunderstanding PHil. it appears to me that it was started by accident someone seen a possibility of research in it. ( wether you agree or disagree its research or not thats another story ) and is tryin to achieve something. everyone has a plan. maybe it would be better if Someone would take control of the cross breed situation stand up and say Hi im so and so and my goal is ( whatever it is ) for these frogs and my plan is to ( whatever ) and that can bring some type of understanding and comfort to the table. and hopefully the people that do have the cross breeds in their possesion ( which will remain nameless ) can stand up and say hey yes im supporting this project for ( whatever reason ) and see if we can bring some type of control to this situation. i know i dont have much to say on the situation considering im very new to the hobby which i state many times over. but i do know a few of the people on the board and such and everyone of you are well educated and great at what you do. in a trade with so many different opinions and so little facts we should all listen with an open ear to people that wish to bring new things to the table. Hear them out i say. then say your opinion and then come to a conclusion from there.

When i first entered the Trade Richard was one of the First ppl to reach out to me give me his phone number and gauid me through the ins and outs of the beginner frogs and put me on to the world of leucs. Soon after i met Phil at a mads meet hosted by chris (herper99) which is where i got my first "higher end" frogs some orange basti's which are still the pride of my collection and from then on i have met with Phil and the other PA crew many more times to come learning and basing my frog practice off their tips and points. i firmly believe that this situation can be resolved considering everyone here does have some type of reasoning.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> It can't be underground....
> 
> I have attended a ton of reptile shows since the 80's and I just haven't seen the interest for designer frogs compared to reptiles and I , admittedly, have always found that odd.
> 
> ...


My opinion, size of the hobby. Geckos and snakes are huge. They are sold in chain stores. People that see my frogs all think they are poisonus and are going to kill me. Lack of knowledge and ease of availability by the casual pet shopper. Even the shows I have been to only have 1,2, maybe 3 vendors that have darts. Everything else is spiders, snakes, geckos, and bearded dragons.

I'm not advocating it, just observing the amount of interest it seems to command over the last few years.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> My opinion, size of the hobby. Geckos and snakes are huge. They are sold in chain stores. People that see my frogs all think they are poisonus and are going to kill me. Lack of knowledge and ease of availability by the casual pet shopper. Even the shows I have been to only have 1,2, maybe 3 vendors that have darts. Everything else is spiders, snakes, geckos, and bearded dragons.
> 
> I'm not advocating it, just observing the amount of interest it seems to command over the last few years.


i have to agree with jelly even you PHil see that there isnt a large group of froggers compared to the other trades. Snakes by far Dominate the shows follows by the average exotic pets Leopard geckos, and bearded dragons mainly. their small colorful friendly and easy to maintain and keep/breed. they dont have a paintful bite dont require filters and tons of water and supplys best of all they dont stick to the glass and hang out on the brim of the tank waiting to escape lol. perfect pet for the perfect beginner herper. i think its a lack of knowledge of the PDF's like jelly stated i hear all the time at the shows ppl comming up asking how much the PDF is and then going. " but its poisionous right? i cant like hold it and play with it right?" lol and then at that point u can attempt to sit and spend the next 15 mins giving them a breifing on the PDF trade lol or you can smike and knod because would you really want to make the sale after hearing that? i do not agree that there are crosses being sold underground or at shows. if they are.. i have yet to hear about a single one. and if it was done. i would say it was honest to god not knowingly because (almost) every single PDF breeder/Vendor has a general love for the hobby and trade. i dont think any of them would purposely put frogs out there to taint it. then again just my opinion nothing more nothing less.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

kamazza said:


> Yes. Im just another idiot who decided to post my opinion and got bashed for it. Guess I will no longer be doing so. I dont post to argue, so I wont. Cant beat the site for info so I think Ill stick to just searching only for a bit....


Nobody has bashed you or called you an idiot. I'm sorry you choose to feel this way.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> Nobody has bashed you or called you an idiot. I'm sorry you choose to feel this way.


Tim...I'm gonna guess they did bash him...

Through the reputation system....


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

kamazza said:


> Yes. Im just another idiot who decided to post my opinion and got bashed for it. Guess I will no longer be doing so. I dont post to argue, so I wont. Cant beat the site for info so I think Ill stick to just searching only for a bit....


you was not being an idiot kate they were just adding on to what you said in more detail.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kamazza said:


> nevermind...


Kate,

I wasn't referring to you.. you posted while I was typing. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Nate,
> 
> I agree....Ed not having enough time to post is terrible.
> 
> ...



I'm not talking about myself but other keepers.. have you ever wonder why there is so little participation by the Zoo/Aquarium community?? Look earlier in this post.. a reference to dumb... intimations that the Zoo's have no clue etc... Why would you post and share in a public domain when there is a strong appearance of bias towards you simply because of what you do.... 


Look at your statement above specificallly calling out zoos for "poorly designed enclosures".... 

Why would the average person choose to participate in an area where thier work can be held to open derision" I have a little bit thicker skin and enjoy exchanging information as there is a need for it.. (like using astaxanthin...) 

How do you think the average frog enthusiast would take it if I held them to open derision for grossly obese animals (and these obese animals are the ones often used to determine if animals are too thin...), failure to seek vet care, shot gun medicating,.. or any of a number of other husbandry issues???? What if it was a vocal subgroup that then participated in bashing that person?? 

So that Zoo has frogs that appear to be hybrids.. so there is absolutely no chance that the color/pattern in those frogs is due to say, hypothetically heavy color supplementation during development? Keep in mind that Zoos often are the ones trying many different color foods with avians and there may have been some bleed over (for example, I was going to try the red supplement used with flamingos on dart frogs years ago.. (roxanthin red). 

So what proof is there that those animals are from the animals exhibited there? Has anyone considered that they were donated or willed to the Zoo??? 

So has anyone bothered to consider that Zoo policy may have required them to keep the frogs? For example, under many Zoo policies, unless an IUCAC approved policy is established before the animal hatches, they have to raise and maintain it and cannot simply euthanize it without the preexisting policy.... 

I really don't have a lot of time right now to see this thread through and don't plan on it... so after tonight, I might not be back for awhile. 

Ed


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

I do not like the idea of passing hybrids in the hobby because of the following reasons…

1. There is an amazing variety of colors, shapes and sizes naturally found in Poison Dart Frogs…
2. I keep “exotic” pets as a way of bringing nature into my home, and keeping hybrids does not compliment that.
3. Once an animal is hybridized, it cannot be undone. Thus the more frogs are hybridized the less we have to use as breeding stock for breeding non-hybrids. This means there is a push to collect more animals from the wild, or simply give up on keeping non-hybrid lines…

#1 & 2 are personal preference and opinion only and have no bearing on “the hobby”…

#3 is quite factual and has an impact on the hobby at large as well as the natural population of frogs…

I have no desire or motive to “bash” anyone who has opinions in contrary to mine and if there are benefits in breeding hybrids I am open to hearing them. I see opinions such as “I like them” or “They are prettier” only valid as personal opinions such as my #1 &2 above and hold no weight when countered with concerns such as my #3 above…

The bigger picture holds precedence over personal preference…

I’m new to frogs but have been keeping/breeding fish for many years. I hate how strong the craze of keeping wild caught fish has become, but as they do not seem to be as threatened in the wild as Dart Frogs appear to be, so I do not push my opinions at people and avoid such debates. If natural populations of frogs are less endangered or if relations with the governments of the countries Dart Frogs are native to are less endangered than I have been lead to believe then please share details supporting your perspective

If reducing the amount of pure species animals we have in the hobby doe not increase the potential for wild caught animals to be brought in, please share your perspectives…

I see this as a very valid topic to discuss and share information on… to help everyone make a better informed personal choice… but I see no reason for us to criticize each other for the opinions we have…

I would like to point out, one of the biggest ‘problems’ I’ve seen in this debate is people failing to differentiate between fact and opinion…


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> You are ultimately correct on the opinion part, but whether you realize it not, Nate, Those crossed frogs are now entering the hobby in some numbers and a little to close for my comfort (East Coast).
> 
> I think McCarthy and even J. Hoover may have been concerned with what the private citizen thought ,said, wrote and what he did in the confines and sanctity of his home and that's a civil rights violation in my book. There are people currently handing out these frogs to many other people on a whim....little different.
> 
> The time has come for me, at least, to start doing background checks on the people I look to acquire frogs from.....my policy and my opinion, of course.


I have seen hybrid frogs offered as hybrids in the pet trade for many years now.. probably close to a decade... yet the hobby continue to identify a morph via a picture and assign it to a morph or species based on a consensus opinion.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> If they were in demand and popular, why aren't we seeing them for sale at White Plains NY or Reptile shows in Columbus?
> 
> I guess all the interest and activity is "underground" because of all the bad sentiments of those people on DB and DD and DFF....


I have seen them openly for sale at Hamburg. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed said:


> I have seen them openly for sale at Hamburg.
> 
> Ed


When and who?


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> You are ultimately correct


behold my awesomeness 



Philsuma said:


> Those crossed frogs are now entering the hobby in some numbers and a little to close for my comfort (East Coast


How are you preparing yourself for this? Have you traced the origins of you frogs, and all future purchases? Building them a bomb shelter? 



Philsuma said:


> The time has come for me, at least, to start doing background checks on the people I look to acquire frogs from.....my policy and my opinion, of course.


You say that as if its a bad thing? Everyone serious about the species hobby (its only a matter of time before the hobby splits in 2 ala geckos/orchids) should know as much about their animals as possible, do everything in their power to acquire genetically diverse pure animals, and manage them properly. 
(How many people really do that?)


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> I knew the Zoo talk would bring Ed out...
> 
> I LOVE Zoos and I am a hobbyist (obviously)
> 
> ...


As Ed has pointed out, there are many variables that none of us know about the situation at hand and to bash the exhibitor for this display is simply wrong. For the kid that sees this and grows up to be a researcher and remembers this cross morph... I'm quite sure he will learn from his studies that this particular exhibit wasn't a 100% correct representation of the animal and/or habitat. For the other 1000's of kids who simply gained respect for the rainforests and their inhabitants, it doesn't matter. We aren't talking about a zoo displaying dart frogs in a desert, we are talking about a cross of two very closely related species, probably accidental. 

And now I remember why... nevermind... these threads never seem very productive


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> How are you preparing yourself for this?
> 
> Building them a bomb shelter?


...kind of......in reverse....I'm thinking of spending 1/2 the year in Central America.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

ok sorry i made the post about them being dumb everyone. i was upset because i hate that the people in zoos are supposed to be very intelligent about the animals they are caring for and instead are displaying hybrids and mislabeling them. and we are supposed to trust them with species like zeteki? 

yes zoos are great, yes they do a lot of conservation work, but its stil frustrating to see this. at woodland park zoo the mix tank they have is pretty big....however i counted 1 leuc with 7 azureus in that tank. and the sign next to it said it also had terriblis in it....never saw them. the sign also had a pic of a histrionicus and the name leucomelas. so they dont even know what animal they have??

anyway, sorry that i offended some people.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

bussardnr said:


> How are you preparing yourself for this? Have you traced the origins of you frogs, and all future purchases? Building them a bomb shelter?


Using sarcasm to spice up an otherwise productive post in a thread on a touchy subject is only asking for trouble... It's simple little things like this that often stir up the emotions that make threads on such topics non-productive and combative...



thedude said:


> at woodland park zoo the mix tank they have is pretty big....however i counted 1 leuc with 7 azureus in that tank. and the sign next to it said it also had terriblis in it....never saw them. the sign also had a pic of a histrionicus and the name leucomelas. so they dont even know what animal they have??


Did you contact them via letter, email, phone and/or in person to inform them of the probable mistake? Become part of the solution!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Toby_H said:


> Using sarcasm to spice up an otherwise productive post in a thread on a touchy subject is only asking for trouble... It's simple little things like this that often stir up the emotions that make threads on such topics non-productive and combative...


I wouldn't think too highly of it otherwise, but Nate and I are friends so...no problem there.....



Toby_H said:


> Did you contact them via letter, email, phone and/or in person to inform them of the probable mistake? Become part of the solution!


And that's really what it's all about...we all want to learn...help..."do better"...

Real simple stuff....we all love Zoos and respect them. Nobody here is anti-zoo.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> ...kind of......in reverse....I'm thinking of spending 1/2 the year in Central America.


now thats a low blow


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> ok sorry i made the post about them being dumb everyone. i was upset because i hate that the people in zoos are supposed to be very intelligent about the animals they are caring for and instead are displaying hybrids and mislabeling them. and we are supposed to trust them with species like zeteki? .


So you think apologizing for calling them dumb and then stating that you hate them because in your opinion they could do better because you don't like the exhibit and you say that they don't deserve to care for zeteki makes it better? Actually you support my point in why should anyone even remotely affiliated with a Zoo choose to share anything here? 


Okay now this is something that does get under my skin...

It doesn't take a deep look at the hobby in general to really make me wonder where you get the ability to judge the ability of a zoo to maintain a species longterm given that the hobby in general has allowed multiple species/,morphs of dendrobatids to go through boom and bust cycles resulting in signficant loss of genetic diversity, bred and established designer morphs from different dendrobatids (fine spotted azureus, chocolate leucs for example off the top of my head), used consensus from pictures to reidentify frogs of questionable origins and use them for breeding purposes.... there could be a longer list but I have other things to take care of....




thedude said:


> yes zoos are great, yes they do a lot of conservation work, but its stil frustrating to see this. at woodland park zoo the mix tank they have is pretty big....however i counted 1 leuc with 7 azureus in that tank. and the sign next to it said it also had terriblis in it....never saw them. the sign also had a pic of a histrionicus and the name leucomelas. so they dont even know what animal they have??
> 
> anyway, sorry that i offended some people.


See my above comment.... you aren't really sorry you offended anyone or sorry you could have offended anyone because you immediately repeated it and in some respects made it even more insulting. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> When and who?


I don't remember the names of the two guys, but it wasn't the normal frog guys (like Tim or Mike). They came to a number of the Hamburg shows with tinctorius and a tinct x azureus which thier sign stated was the most beatiful cutting edge morph. They were usually towards the back left (from the entrance) in the show room. I haven't seen them there in the last two years or so but they used to be there at least once or twice a year. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

It's getting so that soon....we won't be able to say anything without upseting someone.

1. Politcial posts have resulted in lots of hurt feelings as well as negative reputation points.

2. We can't look down on mixed species vivs...

3. We can't even refer to "those frogs" as hybrids because even that word is "wrong".

4. No criticising zoos or pictures of animals on alternate websites not affiliated with zoos.


Well...I guess we can still talk about kittens and birthday cakes without arguing and upsetting someone huh?

Does anyone like pie? I like pies...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> It's getting so that soon....we won't be able to say anything without upseting someone.
> 
> 1. Politcial posts have resulted in lots of hurt feelings as well as negative reputation points.
> 
> ...



Ahh sarcasm.... 

1) maybe. Don't know about the negative points.. 

2) maybe.. deoends on why.. is it a real reason or is it simply because we can...

3) correct... if referring to morphs, intergrade is correct... otherwise hybrids is correct 

4) only if no blatent hypocrisy is involved... 

5) what if someone is allergic to cats and cake?


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> It's getting so that soon....we won't be able to say anything without upseting someone.
> 
> 1. Politcial posts have resulted in lots of hurt feelings as well as negative reputation points.
> 
> ...





pie? pies? CHeeeeese cake Phill CHeeese cake


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> So that Zoo has frogs that appear to be hybrids.. so there is absolutely no chance that the color/pattern in those frogs is due to say, hypothetically heavy color supplementation during development? Keep in mind that Zoos often are the ones trying many different color foods with avians and there may have been some bleed over (for example, I was going to try the red supplement used with flamingos on dart frogs years ago.. (roxanthin red).
> 
> So what proof is there that those animals are from the animals exhibited there? Has anyone considered that they were donated or willed to the Zoo???
> 
> ...


I apologize to everyone if I jumped to any unfair conclusions in the OP, it was just based on my limited experience and observations. I didn't post to start another ethics debate, or call the motives of the Park into question, just to illustrate what a potential hybrid could look like. As for the origin of these particular animals, I have no idea.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

This was listed in my negative reputation:

“have you? your one of the biggest trouble-causeing people on this board. BECOME PART OF THE SOLUTION!!”

In response, yes I have attempted to contribute to the solution:

I shared logical reasons why a zoo would be motivated to have a mixed display.

I suggested to contact the facility and inform them of the situation, pointing out it could have been an oversight.

I discouraged sarcasm which has the potential to turn mature conversations into combative arguments.

I made a long post sharing specifically why I do not support keeping or creating hybrids inviting anyone who disagrees to similarly share their reasoning. 

Note: Prior to this I only posted 3 times in 8 pages… and each of my posts in this thread have been non-combative and productive…


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Toby,

Don't worry....seems I got a couple "boos" from the gallery myself...

1. My "Sarcasm wasn't appreciated" and I should keep it to myself.

and 

2. I'm "always argumentative".

Just keep with it....post your mind, opinion and feelings. Very few, _if any _people here are able to say they deal anywhere close to 100% in facts and absolutes.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i am sorry for offending people. but that doesnt mean i dont stand by what i said. and i was explaining why i said it. in otherwords i was voicing my opinion and stating why it was my opinion. didnt know that was a problem. and by the way, im not saying all zoos are bad. im not even saying any of them are. im saying the zoo with the hybrids and woodland park zoo are dissapointing in this category. not that they are bad. and i dont condone chocolate leucs or fine spot azureus, i like proven morphs from proven locales. 

i didnt say they didnt deserve zeteki, i mearly questioned it. that would be the time when someone would explain to me why they do deserve it, instead of telling me my questioned made them mad. i also never compared us to them. 

how about next time you explain why my opinion is bad instead of making false accusations and being mad? that isnt ment to sound so hostile by the way, not sure how else to word it.




Ed said:


> So you think apologizing for calling them dumb and then stating that you hate them because in your opinion they could do better because you don't like the exhibit and you say that they don't deserve to care for zeteki makes it better? Actually you support my point in why should anyone even remotely affiliated with a Zoo choose to share anything here?
> 
> 
> Okay now this is something that does get under my skin...
> ...


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

you guys went against the great ED of dendroboard. why do you think this hybrid thread is only 8 pages. 
I would like to say that my comments were not aimed at Phil but the whole "everyone that doesn't hate hybrids sucks" mentality that is going around.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Even if they _were_ aimed at me Nate......'so ok.....I can take it


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

I think it’s great that some members can talk so light heartedly about a commonly ‘touchy’ subject… even to the point at joking around in the process. The concern I earlier expressed was when others who may not know you or know of your friendship may read such jolly tongue in cheek comments as slanderous sarcasm. The text version of communication loses so much…

Although I personally do not advocate the keeping or creating of hybrids… I’m much more the type to discuss the reasons behind such feelings than argue conclusions… DCReptiles suggested a couple of pages back for people who keep/breed hybrids to share that they do and the reasons why. It was that post that ‘inspired’ me to explain why I do not /would not (knowingly) keep hybrids in an earlier post.

Mature individuals should be able to discuss their differences as well as their commonalities… I mean, we’re all here for education/information aren’t we?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> i didnt say they didnt deserve zeteki, i mearly questioned it. that would be the time when someone would explain to me why they do deserve it, instead of telling me my questioned made them mad. i also never compared us to them. .





thedude said:


> and we are supposed to trust them with species like zeteki?.


Actually if you read the second quote above (from an earlier post), you did say the zoo don't deserve them as you stated that there is no reason to trust the Zoos to keep them.... 

While you didn't directly compare the hobby and zoos, you put yourself in a position where you felt you were able to judge them based on some purported intergrades and signage.... If you (not you specifically but the hobby) are going to judge something then you (not you specifically) shouldn't be guilty of issues that are at least as problematic... (such as the continual boom and bust of populations resulting in the loss of morphs.....)

The Zoos are trusted with them because they have a record of being able to sustain the maximal genetic diversity of the species which is something that the hobby has not been able to do.... 
Zoos are not going to use the captive animals to launder smuggled or illlegally obtained animals in the hobby.... 
Zoos are not going to keep the animals as long as it is "cool" or profitable"..... 

None of which has anything to do with the display of purported intergrades.... or even mislabled cages..... 




thedude said:


> how about next time you explain why my opinion is bad instead of making false accusations and being mad? that isnt ment to sound so hostile by the way, not sure how else to word it.



I didn't make one false accusation.. see above. You (and in this case you specifically) made a judgement and opinion based on data that has nothing to do with the Atelopus zeteki project and made a statement against the people that directly care for the frogs and typically have nothing to do with the decision of what to display or graphics... 


With respect to your locality comment.. how many morphs in the hobby can you be sure have 100% linkage to the reported locality? (see for example the recent thread on blue jeans pumilio or search the identification forum for the various identifications of locality.. based on visual identifications....) 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Toby,
> 
> Don't worry....seems I got a couple "boos" from the gallery myself...
> 
> ...



Join the club.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bussardnr said:


> you guys went against the great ED of dendroboard. why do you think this hybrid thread is only 8 pages.
> I would like to say that my comments were not aimed at Phil but the whole "everyone that doesn't hate hybrids sucks" mentality that is going around.


People really didn't go against me... however I do occasionally get annoyed as in the vast majority of Zoos, the keepers don't have any say in graphics nor do we get a lot (if any) say in what gets displayed. We are the front line to keep them alive (and regadless of the source or origin of the animals) and when we get on forums like this one... we are also the front line targets for "mixed exhibits" and in this case "inappropriately set-up" enclosures. So why would most people want to get flamed (even in a back handed way) for issues for which they typically have little or no control? Why should they share what they know if they are just going to get jumped over it? 

I'll tell you what Phil, why don't you come down for a tour and see the equipment I get to work with...a better way to describe zookeeping is trying to do more with less..... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Toby_H said:


> This was listed in my negative reputation:
> 
> “have you? your one of the biggest trouble-causeing people on this board. BECOME PART OF THE SOLUTION!!”
> 
> ...


Toby,

I get negatives as well... don't sweat it. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed,

We all love Zoos. I really don't think there are any of those crazy "every single animal belongs in the wild.....euthanize all animals in captivity" people on this forum...I really don't.

I think the OP had his heart in the right place but the context of the posting was...a little rough, is all.

We all appreciate the work that zoo's perform Ed. I can easily imagine your workplace and the tools and resources that you have to make do with. I had a friend at the Baltimore Aquarium in charge of all the Austrailan herp exhibits and I visited him and went "behind the show" quite a few times, so I am aware.

I DO think, however, that any situation with a POSSIBLE unhealthy, unnatural or dangerous animal or exhibit should definately be posted on the applicable forum. The manner of posting should be objective and factual, of course, and that's where I agree with all the issues that you voiced as well as those you contributed to that Tampa Zoo / Aquarium thread, a while back.

It then becomes the OP, or some other interested person's responsibilty to follow up and try to help or at least collect more information. If the desire is soley to provide an announcement, then so be it. He should not be faulted for that.

I prosecuted felony criminal cases, some of which were horrific animal abuse incidents. If no one came forth and reported such incidents, right or wrong, we would never be able to better their conditon and fight for them.

IMHO, the OP had the right idea....got a little emotional....and used the wrong wording. The follow-up posts were of course, out of line and I think you adequately "corrected" him on that.

But

I will take you up on the tour offer Ed....it's be a while since I've been to any Zoo near Philly and I'm overdue.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Ed,
> 
> We all love Zoos. I really don't think there are any of those crazy "every single animal belongs in the wild.....euthanize all animals in captivity" people on this forum...I really don't.


I don't think so either or else I wouldn't be on here.. I have a limited amount of time and it should be indicative that I spend time on here as well as two other forums the regard I have for this group. 



Philsuma said:


> I think the OP had his heart in the right place but the context of the posting was...a little rough, is all..


If there is a problem then the Zoo would like to hear about it in a polite way. However, it is common on forums to start talking (or in some cases ranting) about how irresponsible the Zoo is in general (which is why I got irritated over the Atelopus comment.....) based on incomplete evidence.. 




Philsuma said:


> I DO think, however, that any situation with a POSSIBLE unhealthy, unnatural or dangerous animal or exhibit should definately be posted on the applicable forum. The manner of posting should be objective and factual, of course, and that's where I agree with all the issues that you voiced as well as those you contributed to that Tampa Zoo / Aquarium thread, a while back.


Wouldn't it make more sense to contact the institution first? If you don't get a response, then it may be appropriate to deal with the issue in other manners? 

I know that if I saw a picture on here of an animal that I thought was having problems, I wouldn't jump on the person in the forum. That is forever and later on it can be searched and come up in a post which can be used to deride the poster. I would send them a pm or an e-mail and share my concerns first and see what happens....... In that case the person is much more likely to remain engaged and to resolve the issue. 




Philsuma said:


> I prosecuted felony criminal cases, some of which were horrific animal abuse incidents. If no one came forth and reported such incidents, right or wrong, we would never be able to better their conditon and fight for them..


I worked for a ASPCA for a couple of years so I have a really good idea as to the kind of abuse you are referring. 





Philsuma said:


> I will take you up on the tour offer Ed....it's be a while since I've been to any Zoo near Philly and I'm overdue.


Sundays, Tues and Wed are the best days for me and if you want to get a small group together (say no more than 8 people) it can be accomedated. 

Ed


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

PHil i tend to think the Sarcasm is the best part of this hobby and ur personality hahahaha thats the best type of humar and if ppl cant see the humar in things then their taking things on here a little too seriously... lets remeber we all do have lives outside of the board.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i did read the second quote, and again.....i didnt say they didnt deserve them, i questioned their ability to. read it again if you need to.

also, AGAIN, i was voicing my opinion. im not giving the hobbies opinion but my own personal one. not only that but i have reconsidered it(for the most part). 

thank you for the third paragraph, that is the kind of response that counts, telling me whats wrong with my opinion.

and 2 false accusations you made were me saying i hated them and me saying they didnt deserve zeteki.

i dont know how many of them are true or not. but i dont have any that are questionable except 1 species (which i bought before i decided id rather have ones that could help conservation one day).



Ed said:


> Actually if you read the second quote above (from an earlier post), you did say the zoo don't deserve them as you stated that there is no reason to trust the Zoos to keep them....
> 
> While you didn't directly compare the hobby and zoos, you put yourself in a position where you felt you were able to judge them based on some purported intergrades and signage.... If you (not you specifically but the hobby) are going to judge something then you (not you specifically) shouldn't be guilty of issues that are at least as problematic... (such as the continual boom and bust of populations resulting in the loss of morphs.....)
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> i dont know how many of them are true or not. but i dont have any that are questionable except 1 species (which i bought before i decided id rather have ones that could help conservation one day).


How do you expect the frogs you are getting that could one day help conservation? 

If you are thinking the frogs could be used for release or repatriation...what are you doing to ensure that they would be acceptable for release? 
Are you ensuring that they do not aquire any pathogens that could then be transmitted to the wild?
Are you ensuring that you are supporting the maixmal amount of genetic variation in the captive population or are you keeping siblings or closely related animal together? How are you tracking the maximal amount of genetic variation? 
What are you doing to ensure that the frogs will sustain the correct behaviors to allow for release or repatriation? 

Ed


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

thats just not right , Too bad for thos frogs , good thing is they look very healthy , bad thing is ( dont tell um) they are a mistake , They do look nice cause they look different but auratus look so much better normal . This is a prime example of the burden that over our heads, We each must take responsability to make sure lines are held, This seems worst then some one meaning to do it for research or own collection , because it was done out of ignorance.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

catman25 said:


> thats just not right , Too bad for thos frogs , good thing is they look very healthy , bad thing is ( dont tell um) they are a mistake , They do look nice cause they look different but auratus look so much better normal . This is a prime example of the burden that over our heads, We each must take responsability to make sure lines are held, This seems worst then some one meaning to do it for research or own collection , because it was done out of ignorance.


So just because someone has a different opinion than you they are ignorant? 
wow dude....
Did you even read this thread, your post is the exact thing Eds been talking about


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Ed,
> 
> IMHO, the OP had the right idea....got a little emotional....and used the wrong wording. The follow-up posts were of course, out of line and I think you adequately "corrected" him on that.


Phil,
was this directed at me? I don't think I made any "out of line" follow up posts...


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

i was only implying it seems like bad practice from the zoo . And im entiltled to my opinion , thats all any post is . So let my opinion b


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dane said:


> Phil,
> was this directed at me? I don't think I made any "out of line" follow up posts...


No Dane...you are the OP.

The follow up post(s) were made by others....

Sorry for the confusion.


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