# Bicolor Concern.....



## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

So this morning I found one of my 3 bicolors floating in the water(salsa cup) bowl. The other two seemed fine. As of Monday they had be put in a new tank designed for them, and I have video of them hopping around eating and exploring. Yesterday I noticed that my biggest one seemed to be a lil thinner. Today he was dead.

Facts-I know: All 3 have been housed together their entire life with me.
I bought them in May 2012
Before Monday they were in a small tank (5 gal.?)
Watched them eat a lot on Monday, and have given food daily.
They are in a classroom where I work.
Their new tank has only housed them, made for them.
Temps and humidity is avg/normal.


* While inspecting the cage this evening, I startled the 2nd biggest one I have, and he jumped, bumping into a piece of drift wood in the cage. He they lay there frozen. His back started to bleed in 3 or 4 different spots. I carefully placed him in a cup with wet paper towels to see if he was join to make it......
(The wood was removed as not to injure the other frog)


Not a good day

Any thought or advice...? Are they stressed? Sick? 
MAybe this thread with help others...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

OH no. I'm so sorry 

Ok, obvious question: Are all chemicals (silicone, GS, whatever) in the new tank well cured?


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Yes, I finished the tank the first week in June. I Was waiting for them to get a lil older before I put them in.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Any ideas.....


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

Some things to check, is the substrate easily ingested, terribs will lunge for their food. So can easily get impacted. Who has access, could something been dropped in and eatin? Is there heating vents near, there very susceptible. 
Inspect their cage and monitor their health for trouble signs. And most of all lots of LL


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## pdfDMD (May 9, 2009)

It could be several things. First, it could be stress. Sometimes when a group of frogs are moved from one enclosure to another can trigger territorial battles. One local frogger moved two of his male bicolors to a new tank and ended up having to separate them due to unrelenting aggression between the two that surfaced after the move. Even though they're known to be compatible in groups bicolors can exhibit strong territorial behavior (it's also believed that they are more solitary in the wild compared to their cousins, the terribilis, which may help explain some odd behavior tendencies). As other have pointed out, the second thing could be the materials you used. What did you make the background out of? For example, if you used Great Stuff and it's too thick the base layer may not be fully cured and it's slowly leeching chemicals into the tank. Depending on the situation, it could slowly leech for months. Amphibians are highly sensitive to chemicals and other irritants. One last thing to consider; did anyone dump anything into the terrarium?


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

*The back is constructed of the Pond foam, as is the background of my other two thriving inhabited tanks. 

*The substrate is also the same in all3 tanks. With that being said, about 2 weeks ago i dumped the remnants of my dwarf iso container in the tank = unknown substrate in small area.

Thank you for the continued comments.....

I believe the 2nd frogs death was just a fluke.......

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000663905235

***Some pictures of them, the most recent was taken Monday(the newest one posted)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Did any of the frogs using the water disk to soak before death? It isn't uncommon for ill frogs to soak in the water for one reason or another. 

Have you screened them for parasites or pathogens like chytrid? 

Ed


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

All good sugestions.
1 five gal way to small and has put a lot of stress on them.
They need a large tank to co exist. Even in my large tank i have to spread the food around to make sure they all eat and monitor any that show signs of getting thin.
Even if they are not showing outward aggresion toward each other just being close I think stresses them out. 

They also along with terribilis will lunge head first into glass and die.
I found painting the sides of the tank helps.

make sure there are not any sprays/chemical being used to clean room.

And of coarse they will eat anything that gets into mouth.
Mine have eating beans that have fallen into tank from my bean beetles

They will eat anything that falls into tank if it rolls or moves.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

*They were babies so I housed them in a grow out tank.....

*They have always eaten well and never showed signs of aggression.

***Tricolor*** Moving them from a small tank that stressed them out killed them??? I'm not sure I understand. The larger tank is 29 gal. 

Thanks again


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

hmm, could be they just caught some frog bug.
I sometimes will lose a contianer of terribilis froglets while all the others are fine and continue into healthy adulthood. It seems once one or two die there is no stopping it. John


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

Tricolor said:


> I sometimes will lose a contianer of terribilis froglets while all the others are fine and continue into healthy adulthood. It seems once one or two die there is no stopping it. John


What age are the froglets you are losing? Is it after the 6 month mark? I know some frogs tend to be very fragile during the first four months. In this case, she has had them for a few months... If I remember correctly, they are around 9 or 10 months.

My suggestion would be to have decals run on the remaining bicolor; if there is a parasite killing her frogs, it would be good to know now before it's too late.

If the 3rd frog dies and there are no fecals, I would destroy everything in the tank (I'd trash the tank too).

-Christian


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

rain dart said:


> ***Tricolor*** Moving them from a small tank that stressed them out killed them??? I'm not sure I understand. The larger tank is 29 gal.
> 
> Thanks again


I don't think Tricolor means moving them *from a small tank to a large tank stressed them*, but rather, that simply *moving them *stressed them.
Stressful situations may build up. Plenty of things might add stress that a frog should be able to deal with. Moving them, missing a meal, odd lighting schedules, every time you walk into the room or open the viv, other frogs, improper viv conditions, etc, might all be stressful for your frogs.
If fully healthy, none of these things should be enough to kill a frog. If, however, their health is compromised, these could build up and become a problem.
A compromised vitamin dusting regimen could be a potential problem. Here is a quote from a conversation Ed and I recently had.
Ed -- "On a different tangent, what has he been using to dust for the frogs since nutritional deficiencies can reduce tolerance for stress?"
Can you please give us a complete run down on your dusting regimen.
1) What vitamins are you using and how often?
2) How old are they?
3) How do you store them? (refrigerated? Air tight container? Replaced every 6 months? Kept dry and in the dark?)


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

If the viv is in a classroom, have you asked about what kinds of aerosol cleaners are being used in the room? Some of the industrial cleaning supplies used in schools are pretty harsh. Other than that (and this is purely conjecture since I have never kept bicolor) it could be many of the things previously mentioned: stress (either from aggression or from the move), some sort of pollutant in the tank (seems unlikely), weird temperature fluctuations (when you are not in the classroom), etc...honestly it may be best to tear down the viv, sanitize, and rebuild it. Keep the remaining frog in a q-tine container so you can keep a better eye on it. Don't let this bad experience make you give up on darts...everyone has something crappy happen to them at one point or another.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

fieldnstream said:


> If the viv is in a classroom, have you asked about what kinds of aerosol cleaners are being used in the room? Some of the industrial cleaning supplies used in schools are pretty harsh. Other than that (and this is purely conjecture since I have never kept bicolor) it could be many of the things previously mentioned: stress (either from aggression or from the move), some sort of pollutant in the tank (seems unlikely), weird temperature fluctuations (when you are not in the classroom), etc...honestly it may be best to tear down the viv, sanitize, and rebuild it. Keep the remaining frog in a q-tine container so you can keep a better eye on it. Don't let this bad experience make you give up on darts...everyone has something crappy happen to them at one point or another.


I missed the "classroom" part. Field is right, chemical pollutants (cleaning spray, disinfectant, etc) used by the janitorial crew, is another good thing to check into.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Thanks Doug, My words come out in a jumble sometimes. ahhah.
I think most frogs are carring some kind of illness and when compromized it rears its ugly head. I believe this to be the case with most animals .John


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

*Dust usually every feeding sometimes every other - usually feed them daily and they eat like cows, but due to a ff problem I was still feeding daily just not quite as much.
*Repashy from Josh's frogs bought 3 months ago will toss and buy more in 2 1/2 months
*Stored in a dry dark cabinet


My other pdf are in the same room and all seem healthy and fine, calling, breeding and tads are growing....


As stated before I have pic and vid from monday where they seemed fine, fat and happy


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

rain dart said:


> *Dust usually every feeding sometimes every other - usually feed them daily and they eat like cows, but due to a ff problem I was still feeding daily just not quite as much.
> *Repashy from Josh's frogs bought 3 months ago will toss and buy more in 2 1/2 months
> *Stored in a dry dark cabinet
> 
> ...


Repashy what?


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Ah I forgot, I think it has a Gecko on it....

As for cleaning and the use of cleaning supplies in the room.... I have kept 6 other darts and over the years as many as 15 r.e.t.f. in exo vivs in the room. I have discussed with teachers, staff and our janitors about the frogs. My other darts have been in there now about 1 1/2 with no loss.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

And again thank you all for picking at this thread, I hope it will help me and hopefully someone else too


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry, but my line of thought is at a dead end until we know what you are supplementing with. Repashy has no less than 10 products with various lizards on the bag. I am not a lizard guy and cannot even guess as to which product you are using. Not all of the Repashy products are a stand alone supplement. For instance, if you are using the Repashy Vitamin Plus, you will not get the right amounts of calcium. If you are using any of the SuperCal formulas (HiD, LoD, MeD, or NoD), then you will not get the proper vitamins you need.
Some are rotating the Repashy Calcium Plus with the Repashy Supervit. According to Allen Repashy, the Supervit is made to be rotated with any of the SuperCal formulas.
If rotating Calcium Plus with Supervit, you are only giving your frogs half the required calcium.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

CalPlus has a leopard gecko on it...I'm guessing that is what she is using (hopefully). Some friends that breed tons of Phyllobates do half CalPlus and half Cal MedD, they say it reduces sudden unexplainable deaths. Crystal, if you need some calcium to add in let me know, I have tons and won't be able to use it all before it expires.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Temp check, it was a lil warmer in the new tank....other tank got some artificial light but tank sat on a corner self(cooler on that side of the room), new tank out in open with top light...humidity was good. Yes field that is what I use. 

Yesterday last smaller frog was doing well, today sprawled out on floor, gone  

All other frogs and tanks seem well......


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

All other frogs look great. The last bicolor was eating and moving around yesterday, stress could have done it looking back. Change in size, activity, light, etc. Really suks, love all my frogs but those were on my top 5 to have list. Being a teacher, and full time student, it will be a while before I can fund a new viv and 3 more bicolors.



Thanks again for all the input, I really appreciate such a great community of froggers.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Rip..........


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Again, sorry for your loss. Stuff like this happens...learning from it can prevent the same problems in the future...we all lose frogs so don't be too hard on yourself!


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

On next go around, would recommend no standing water dish as will breed lethal bacteria in 1-2 days from frog poo. If you want to reuse tank, just strip to glass and bleach the heck out of it, rinse down and should be safe from most things on the planet.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Thanks, after rechecking everything, and watching how much attention the tank gets, I would say stress played a major factor here.


Hopefully in a few months I can start over and find some local bicolors.


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