# Wanting to improve your husbandry and conservation skills?



## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

Thats right, time for another round of "why aren't you a TWI/ASN member yet!?"

Please take a moment to read the poll options and select the option that best describes your situation. If there is more than one option that describes your feelings, or your response is "Other" - please post in the thread with your thoughts or concerns and we'll do our best to address them. ASN would like to see this thread become more than just a "poll" - so please - respond with any comments you may have. 

We thank you for your participation and help in making ASN a stronger program for amphibian conservation. 

Aside from the stunning semi-annual Leaf Litter Magazine available to all members, here's a small sample of current topics being discussed by members on the TWI forums:

-rethinking parasites
-Sorting out the mess of captive populations
-Why we need standards
-Tadpole and Froglet Husbandry
-Quarantine guidelines
-Hardcopy library / bookswap

Most questions can be answered with a quick read of:

The Tree Walkers International site

The Amphibian Steward Network page

ASN documents section


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

I am a supporting member of TWI (and always ask my contribs to be given to ASN) but I am not a steward. First and foremost, as I have said before, I wish to leave the critically rare/difficult frogs to those of you who are experts. Second, I found the list of requirements to be a Steward a bit more intense then I am currently comfortable with. Namely, those sections of the code related to cites paperwork and registrations. Though most of my collection is from a reputable breeder who I am sure would provide me with documents if I asked, I have been in the hobby long enough to have done a few "petsmart rescues" for which there can be no hope of ever acquiring such data.

Also, some of my most prolific frogs are assumed WC but again I cannot verify thier origins due to the shady nature of who they were acquired from. If the Stewards' aim, as I understand it, is to create proper accurate records of the captive breeding population I just don't have the necessary data to provide. The last thing I want is to claim one thing as fact about my bloodlines only to be completely wrong and jeopardize the genetic purity of a morph.

Finally, I lack the capacity to submit openly to rearing frogs on behalf of the ASN and if I cannot do even that I practically fail (including the above concerns) to be a beneficial member to the stewardship at all.

Jeff.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Hi Jeff,

I know the ASN Handbook can be intimidating, but most of what is in there are guidelines rather than requirements. I you haven't seen the ASN Pocket Guide, I recommend giving it a read as it cuts through a lot of the crap and just gets to what being a steward invloves.
http://www.treewalkers.org/index.php?op ... mitstart=3

In the vast majority of cases, becoming a steward does not require any changes in how we do things other than to accession animals into the database.

CITES and import paperwork is only needed in very rare cases and hasn't been needed yet. For example, if you said you acquired lehmanni from an importation in 2006, then you would need to have paperwork to show the specimens are legal since no record of an importation appears in the CITES database. The majority of frogs in the hobby don't have or need paperwork. We just want to make sure that people don't try to use ASN to add "legitimacy" to smuggled animals.

A major part of ASN is to improve the way we manage the species we already have so the majority of animals in the system are not critically imperiled in the wild. This does two things. First it lets us maintain the status quo of populations already in captivity (to prevent them from sliding down that slope of domestication). And second, it gets people familar with the data collection and procedures needed to manage those critically imperiled animals if/when the time comes.

Bottom line is that even if your entire collection is a single group of D. auratus of unknown origin, getting them in the program still benefits ASN and the hobby.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Much appreciated, Brent. I will read through the pocket guide and if it is as you say (which I imagine it is) I will begin taking steps immediately to join up. Thanks for clearing up my misconceptions.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Much appreciated, Brent. I will read through the pocket guide and if it is as you say (which I imagine it is) I will begin taking steps immediately to join up. Thanks for clearing up my misconceptions.


Glad it helped and you aren't the only one who has been confused. In hindsight, we should have released the pocket guide first and the handbook later. The handbook is designed to serv as a technical reference for ASN and its stewards. We wanted to get all of the details about the program into a comprehensive guide. But the idea is to provide a heirarchy of implementing that information so that anyone can participate no matter how much, or how little of the conservation breeding stuff they know, or even want to know.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

What are these groups for conservation? I'm confused?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

*Re:*



Mac said:


> What are these groups for conservation? I'm confused?


ASN is the Amphibian Steward Network which is a program of Tree Walkers International. There is a sticky on TWI above on this board. And the web site is: http://www.treewalkers.org


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I plan on joining very soon, but I had a few quick questions. First, after you register and register your animals, you can register other frogs later, right? So if I for example register tonight and next month I get new frogs I can still register the new ones, right? Another question, if I go to the registration form it has different amounts to donate. Does it matter which amount? Are there advantages to getting the "contributing member" rather than "student" or other ones? Last question for now, I'd like to become an amphibian steward, but don't quite understand something. If they have something like a taxon manegment program, like with the variabilis, they make sure there are a handfull of people with that species. How do they decide who gets them? Do they just say we need x number of people to get these frogs, or ask people they feel are qualified to get them, or not ask anyone and just find out who gets them on their own and ask them to register the frogs?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I plan on joining very soon, but I had a few quick questions. First, after you register and register your animals, you can register other frogs later, right? So if I for example register tonight and next month I get new frogs I can still register the new ones, right?


Absolutely, when you sign up for TWI you dont accession animals at all. If you choose to participate in the ASN there is still no need to accession any animals at that time. Accessions can be submitted, resubmitted and modified at any time. Its a dynamic database of what amphibians are being managed in which ways.



Baltimore Bryan said:


> Another question, if I go to the registration form it has different amounts to donate. Does it matter which amount? Are there advantages to getting the "contributing member" rather than "student" or other ones?


No advantage at all other than the joy of knowing you gave more at that time. Think of the description as more of a suggestion rather than a level structure.



Baltimore Bryan said:


> Last question for now, I'd like to become an amphibian steward, but don't quite understand something. If they have something like a taxon manegment program, like with the variabilis, they make sure there are a handfull of people with that species. How do they decide who gets them? Do they just say we need x number of people to get these frogs, or ask people they feel are qualified to get them, or not ask anyone and just find out who gets them on their own and ask them to register the frogs?


As far as I understand a little bit of each. Remember the animals registered with ASN are the sole property of those who accessioned them. If the owners choose to swap or distribute animals with the purpose of maintaining genetic diversity they simply notify the TMP group and work together to place them appropriately.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks for answering my questions so quickly, that was very helpful. I'll join either tonight or tomorrow, and become a steward as soon as I can.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Last question for now, I'd like to become an amphibian steward, but don't quite understand something. If they have something like a taxon manegment program, like with the variabilis, they make sure there are a handfull of people with that species. How do they decide who gets them? Do they just say we need x number of people to get these frogs, or ask people they feel are qualified to get them, or not ask anyone and just find out who gets them on their own and ask them to register the frogs?


The important thing to remember is that everything is volunary. Right now all the variabilis TMP includes is a designation of the populations that will be managed and sets a target for a minimum number of founders. Typically the target number of founders is 20 unrelated animals. The idea is that stewards can use that information to help them make their own decisions. For example, suppose you were considering getting some imitator or variabilis and couldn't quite decide. You might check with the TMGs to see which group was in greatest need of adding founders to the managed group. As we get more stewards and more animals, the usefulness to stewards will grow. For example, there is a software program called MateRx that helps you choose appropriate mates for animals based on their genetic pedigree. So if you acquire an animal you want to find a mate for, you could plug that animal into the software and it would search the ASN database to locate the best sources for mates. The database will also help us see which populations are declining in captivity and let us respond to the decline before it becomes a problem. So if we see that there aren't enough breeding groups of Phyllobates vittatus, then we could get that information out to the stewards and most likely one or ore stewards would find room in their collections to add a breeding group. Also just as likely, stewards that already have vittatus will find ways to make it really easy for other stewards to get them. Basically, ASN provides the information to help hobbyists do a better job of safeguarding the future of these captive populations.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Alright, here's probably a dumb question. I just joined a couple of minutes ago. I made the donation with a credit card and all that stuff. Then when I went to the "members area" I got the login or register screen. I figured I would have to register since I don't have a password / username and I don't know how to make one. So when I clicked register, an error came up saying "Sorry, registration is currently disabled." Now what do I do?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Alright, here's probably a dumb question. I just joined a couple of minutes ago. I made the donation with a credit card and all that stuff. Then when I went to the "members area" I got the login or register screen. I figured I would have to register since I don't have a password / username and I don't know how to make one. So when I clicked register, an error came up saying "Sorry, registration is currently disabled." Now what do I do?


Sent you a PM.


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## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

Be patient grasshopper, an email with login information will not be far from your email box.....


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

I have been a member for over a year now of TWI... I even made Lee pull his hair out with my group accession recently for ASN :mrgreen: Thank you to Brent and Lee for all your work on ASN!!


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## Frognut (Jan 31, 2005)

Just a question on registered animals? I have frogs listed on Frogtracks, is there a list that is in place on TWI? or do we still register on Frogtracks? please excuse my lack of finding this info if it has already been covered. I have no problem with joining TWI.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

The ASN accession reports have a place to include any FrogTracks numbers for your animals.


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## Frognut (Jan 31, 2005)

So animals should be regestered in both places? I would like to only have one place to register.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

The ISIS database that ASN is using is able to track the same information that Frogtracks does, but also goes far beyond just tracking lineage. I certainly dont want to advice you against using Robs site, but its not really necessary if your accessioning your animals into the ASN.

Here's a great preview of the new ZIMS software that ASN will be receiving once its completed. We currently run ARKS, its predecessor.

powerpoint - http://www.isis.org/news/ZIMSTour/ZIMSWORLDTOUR.ppt
webvideo - http://support.isis.org/zimmy/accession ... fault.html


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Because ASN is designed to provide a bridge between the private sector and professional conservation efforts at zoos, it was an easy decision for ASN to join ISIS and use the same database systems as zoos and aquaria. For their part, ISIS has been very supportive of this idea because it extends ISIS well beyond their original scope. In essence, TWI becomes a virtual "zoo" which is the ISIS institution that other zoos see when they view records we have submitted to the database. In reality, the actual specimens are privately owned by TWI members and TWI is the broker that zoos can interact with. So the concept is that zoos can interact with TWI just as they would another zoo, and TWI makes that final bridge to the steward who actually owns the animals. This creates a seamless connection in tracking pedigrees between private and public collections.

At present, the only connection between FrogTracks and the ASN database is that the FrogTracks numbers can be captured in ASN so an animal can be cross-referenced between the two. I would like to see us find ways to make cross-reference a mutually beneficial thing. Presently, I think the two systems serve useful, but different, purposes.


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## Frognut (Jan 31, 2005)

Ok so I joined up! When will my name turn *blue*? :mrgreen: So I wait to be e-mailed with login info? I got an e-mail copy of payment.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

Sorry, fresh out of blue...you'll be pink :mrgreen:


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## Frognut (Jan 31, 2005)

Ok my name is *blue*amd not pink and I thought I was special :mrgreen: 

but I would like to regester some frogs. I still can't regester myself?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

I'm not sure where you are in the application process so best to contact Matt Mirabello as he's in charge of new members. The process to join the ASN are separate from the TWI account so make sure you've applied for that (see step three) and read up on accessioning *registering* your animals.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

FYI about the membership and ASN registration process. Currently there is a lot of manual entry that has to happen. When you join ASN, and email is sent to TWI informing them of the donation. Scott MacDonald then processes the donation and sets you up with a forum account. Typically Scott processes donations within a couple hours of receipt. But even supermen like Scott need to sleep sometimes. When you submit a registration for ASN, that form goes to Matt Mirabello who will issue you a steward ID number. Once you have that number, you are set to submit accession forms.

Admittedly, the process sucks but that was all we could come up with on a limited budget and with the skills at hand. But we are working on a much improved system that will hopefully automate all of this and eliminate the emailing of forms etc.


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## Therek (Dec 24, 2007)

Hi,

what are your plans with regards to international members?

I can understand logistically there might be some issues with exchanging of animals (CITIES takes 60+ days), but do you take membership from other countries? If yes to members from other countres, will conservation plans be made by TWI or say, a committee from the other country (also TWI)? I'm guessing TWI is international, but I didn't see any mention of it.

Anyway, please let me know!
Pete


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Therek said:


> Hi,
> 
> what are your plans with regards to international members?
> 
> ...


Yes we do take international members and are hoping that more people from non-USA countries will sign up. (there are already Members from Europe). Hit the submit button too quickly... 
I think (and others from the board can correct me) that due to the issues with CITES, there will hopefully be TWI groups in those countries tracking the populations using the guidelines set forth to determine populations at risk and managing them... 



Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Ditto what Ed said. Obviously there are some logistic limitations that make it hard to exchange animals between continents. But that doesn't mean we can manage animals with a single purpose and share information around the world. Lars Osterdahl and Allan Cann are both ASN Committee members so we do have international representation. As European involvement grows, we'll remain flexible to make the most of ASN. There probably never be a European TMG separate from a North American TMG, but TMG's can subdivide into working groups so one set of members works on the European side, and another works on the North American side. And the two groups would collaborate to form a combined TMP for the species. And the desire is certainly to have TMP's not just cover the populations that are in the US and Canada, but to include all captive populations. And with any luck, it could even lead to more cost effective animal exchanges to maximize genetic integrity of captive populations across borders.


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## Therek (Dec 24, 2007)

Ed and Brent,

thanks for your responses.
I thought that would be your answers 

Pete


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

I'd like to join but none of those links work. Can someone help me out?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

bobberly1 said:


> I'd like to join but none of those links work. Can someone help me out?


Come join us - become a TWI member today.

The website has been updated since the last few posts. This new link should do the trick


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Im unclear on how animals are distributed....does someone with a particular species look at a list of memebers and say, oh i think dendro dave would do well with these and then they ask, i accept and they ship me some frogs? do i pay for them? Do i have access to animals from zoos? To animals that arent offered often in the hobby say lehmanni? Is there a list of species being offered to stewards that we get to look at and put a "bid" in for the animals?.... Stuff along those lines


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Animal distribution depends on the scenario, but I will list a few to help clarify.

Taxon Management Plans are written by Taxon Management Groups on species which provide a list of the populations within that species and how they should be managed. When a steward accessions their animals into the database, they are not donated but simply tracked in the system. Depending on the population, the recommendation may be to track it or it may be to manage it (* see footnote). One example that has been published already, is the Ranitomeya variabilis TMP ( http://www.treewalkers.org/treeftp/GlobalConservation/ASN/public/TMP/VariabilisTMP.pdf ).

When active management begins for one of the populations, the TMG leader along with the ASN committee would look at a heritage tree and decide how to manage the population for genetic integrity or any other specific management goals (it may vary per population). In one scenario you could have two stewards with variabilis pairs, where each steward's pair is comprised of closely related siblings. The TMG leader might recommend to the stewards to trade their males so they can each produce more diverse offspring. Since the animals are owned by the stewards, nobody is forcing them to trade with one another. The recommendations are completely voluntary, but it is a network based on participation and that should be kept in mind as well.

In another scenario, there may be an institution such as a zoo which is looking for help from the private sector to develop husbandry guidelines for a certain species. They would distribute an evaluation form to the stewards and select participants based on the controls or requirements they set. This may vary based on specifics, but in many cases the institution would provide the animals to the selected stewards while still maintaining ownership of the animals. Once the project goals are met, the institution would request the animals returned or something else may be worked out. But the ASN is a volunteer based network and not just another way of 'getting cool frogs', so the requirements of the evaluation form in selecting stewards would take this into account.

There could also be a scenario where one steward has an uncommon species he/she wants to get established in the hobby again. The interested stewards may again be asked to fill out an evaluation form and the steward providing (or selling) the animal would select based on the criteria he/she had set.

Many of the questions you raised are case-specific, but the main answer is that it would depend on the institutions or stewards which are providing the animals to decide on how they want them distributed. In the case of animals which stewards themselves own and accession in the system, they won't be placed without their consent but it is a volunteer based network that requires participation for populations to be managed accordingly. Hope this helps clear up a few things, if not feel free to ask some more questions!

* The old 4 category system is being dropped and populations are now either classified in one of two ways:
Track - populations which are monitored over time to maintain lineage trees and awareness of potential risks
Manage - populations which are actively bred for genetic integrity to maintain diversity and wild type characteristics


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Thx that clears some things up, i'll likely join when i get some frogs...just the lone black bassleri for now ;(


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Once I get the credit card to a managable balance, I`ll be making a nice donation.
I guess I`ts better than nothing right?

John


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