# Frustrated with my bastis !



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Hey, just curious

I have 1.2 and 1.1 bastis. Males call, there is lots of breeding action, lots of eggs that go bad. I have film canisters spread all over the tanks and they lay in them, but then the eggs go bad. I had it where I saw tads wiggling, but then they disintegrated. It's a bit frustrating.

How do you guys set up your film canisters and pum breeding tanks? Do you have any water in them? I spread them all over with different angles, etc. They lay eggs in them, so that must be working, but why do they go bad ?!

Maybe I'll start shoving a piece of rolled up leaf into the containers, that way the eggs won't slide down into the water.

any suggestions?

Marty


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

I have had the same problem with all of my basti eggs, extremely frustrating.

rob


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

My bastis laid good eggs first try. My case is probably just luck but the film canister might have something to do with it. All of our pumilio eggs are laid on bromeliads or leaf surface and are not in contact with standing water. They only see water every couple days when we mist. Our pumilio tanks are kept relatively dry also. I don't know if this will help, but it may be worth a try.


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

You don't need film canisters serving as egg deposition sites for pumilio.

If you choose not to use bromeliads they will do well as tadpole raising sites, as will any other small water holding containers. I use salsa and applesauce cups.

All my breeding pairs lay eggs on leaves, usually off the ground but not always. Most pairs I have are laying eggs but not transporting the tads. Even pairs that have successsly raised froglets seem to lay more eggs than they could ever care for. They may transport one out of a clutch or the whole clutch. I've also got many containers with more than one tad in it, sometimes they coexist for lengthy periods of time but so far I've never had both morph out. Usually one is "missing" the next day, no body; do they cannibalize each other? Seems a large meal for a tadpole that only eats eggs.

Some pairs will just take time to get it right, and some pairs will never get it right. I have a few pairs that have taken 6 months to start transporting tads. Just be patient .

ERic


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Hm... I've got bromeliads in their tanks. Who knows, they might even be raising tads in one of the broms, It's too hard to see. I have my basti tanks in the top shelf on my rack. 

Should I just take out the film canisters and just leave the bromeliads? Or put the canisters in once I see female carrying some tads? I did see eggs with wigglers on the leafs of the bromeliads before, but then they vanished.




EricM said:


> You don't need film canisters serving as egg deposition sites for pumilio.
> 
> If you choose not to use bromeliads they will do well as tadpole raising sites, as will any other small water holding containers. I use salsa and applesauce cups.
> 
> ...


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## wolcottaj (Aug 1, 2004)

I would take the film canisters out. Like people have already said they don't need them if you have broms in there. And for the vanishing eggs. I think you will have some froglets soon!
Andy


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

I don't use bromeliads with my pumilio and they raise their young just fine in plastic cups, just like imitators raising tads in a film cansiter. 

Bromeliads are fine and I use them with other species that seem to be more reclusive and need extra privacy. But pumilio seem fairly unconcerned with human presence and the cups have worked well so far.

It is interesting to watch the tads feed on food eggs, tads chase each other around the cup and the transformation of the tadpoles, seeing the coloration appear on the back and the legs pop out. Although there is a certain "high" you miss knowing what's coming, it's always a great thing to suddenly notice a froglet sitting on a bromeliad leaf.

The key is to furnish the terrarium with all the essentials the frogs need, in case they breed, then the frogs will do what nature programmed them to.

PUmilios pop out a lot of eggs, both reproductive and nutritional; and lots of food is needed to fuel this type of energy investment. Also make sure the frogs have a sense of security. If the animal cannot escape threats caused by movement, noise or vibration this may impede reproduction.

Hope this helps
ERic


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

> Usually one is "missing" the next day, no body; do they cannibalize each other?


 Oh yeah they cannibalize each other. Some young tads are also offered to older ones, I'm sure for the nutritional benefit. (my opinion only).

I use broms myself and am having better luck. I offered both and the film canisters were ignored. Too deep I suspect. The female is going to drop only so far into the water and the tad doesn't want to expend too much energy going for the food source, or give up the safety of its axil coming too far out.

Justin Yeager said something to me that I will never forget after his trip to Costa Rica and Bastamentos island. "pumilio are weed frogs" Meaning they are thick in the weeds. So I added plants and lots of laying sites and boom! Lots of froglets have peeped out. I would suggest a heavily planted tank and I spray every day. Its pretty swampy for them. I have a Ghost Wood Log in there from Black Jungle or Cindy Dicken (I forget), and lots of broms, creeping figs, and pothos. Its a jungle in there, but I hope it's like the marshness of Bastamentos island's shores. It seems to work for them anyways.

But I would listen to the stuff from Eric's posts as well, he has been working with Pum's longer than I have.

Dave


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Thanks for the replies. Those tanks where I have my pumilios are slowly overgrowing, but they still have a bit to go. I figured that film containers (or any for hat matter) serve as substitutes for broms. I tried to use then in addition to broms though, but that might not be necessary. I saw Mark Pepper didn't have too many broms, if any, for his pums and went with lots of film containers instead. He also had luck with pumilios breeding just in leaf litter or with highly overgrown tanks (still no broms - just containers.). 

Since I have my bromeliads nicely established in those tanks, I will try my luck withuot the canisters or containers and will let that tank go a bit, so it can overgrow. I'll keep you guys posted. I'll dump some leaf litter in there also.

Marty




ED's_Fly_Meat_Inc said:


> > Usually one is "missing" the next day, no body; do they cannibalize each other?
> 
> 
> Oh yeah they cannibalize each other. Some young tads are also offered to older ones, I'm sure for the nutritional benefit. (my opinion only).
> ...


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

I started taking the containers out last night. First one had bunch of bad eggs, 2nd had nothing, just a bunch of dead flies, then the 3rd I saw a nice healthy tad wiggling away !!! YIPPEEE :shock: 

I put all the containers back.... aparantly my bastis are on top of things (minus few bad eggs). I'll just let them do whatever... I'll leave the broms and the containers. I don't want to disturb them if they're nursing a tad. I bet there is more in broms or other containers.

btw, do you guys do maintenance on those contaienrs? ie. suck out junk, add water? anything ? 




wolcottaj said:


> I would take the film canisters out. Like people have already said they don't need them if you have broms in there. And for the vanishing eggs. I think you will have some froglets soon!
> Andy


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

What angle are the film canisters being put into the tank at?


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

I have angles all over the place. from nearly verticial to almost horizonal. About 45 degrees is where the tadpol is sitting.



dmartin72 said:


> What angle are the film canisters being put into the tank at?


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

I took a 2nd look at the canister with the tads. I noticed there are 4 of them there. Should I seperate them or just let them be? I added a little bit of water, but that's about it.

any advice would be welcomed.



wolcottaj said:


> I would take the film canisters out. Like people have already said they don't need them if you have broms in there. And for the vanishing eggs. I think you will have some froglets soon!
> Andy


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Marty,

I don't disturb the containers when there are tads in them, unless the water levels get too low, then I'll add some water to fill them back up. Most of my frog water dishes have java moss in them, in many cases the java moss grows up over the side of the container onto the subsrate of the tank floor. The java moss will do a great job as a natural filter so there is no maintenance needed. Other cups without java grow multiple types of algae and assorted crud, some do well and others seem foul, I just over flow these with clean water to flush them. 

My pumilio tanks were incredibly overgrown and the worst problem was the roots of other plants sucking up the container water and drying out the tads. I pulled out all the TRansdentia as they were the worst root offenders, something to be mindful of.

THanks
ERIc


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## bradadams (Jun 3, 2004)

I would let them be. Were the eggs laid there or were they transported? I'm not sure the parents will care for them unless they were transported. Hopefully they will though.


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Thanks for the info. I will keep it in mind, and I will let them be. I'll put few slivers of java moss there to keep things fresh. I adjusted the misting nozzle to overspray the container a bit and add some fresh water everyday.

btw, should I suck out the gel reminents from the egg sacks?



EricM said:


> Marty,
> 
> I don't disturb the containers when there are tads in them, unless the water levels get too low, then I'll add some water to fill them back up. Most of my frog water dishes have java moss in them, in many cases the java moss grows up over the side of the container onto the subsrate of the tank floor. The java moss will do a great job as a natural filter so there is no maintenance needed. Other cups without java grow multiple types of algae and assorted crud, some do well and others seem foul, I just over flow these with clean water to flush them.
> 
> ...


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Marty,

I never considered removing gel sacks of eggs, so "no" I haven't done it before. They stay in the mix in nature so why not in the vivarium. Usually if I try and keep things too "sterile" or clean I have problems, such as egg mold or sls in tads. I wouldn't sweat the buildup of crud in the tad cups unless it crowds out the tad and prevents it from reaching the food eggs.

Thanks
eRIc


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Eric, 
Are you keeping your tad cups on the floor of the enclosure? I got that impression when you said the java grew out of them, but I just want to verify. I keep placing mine high in the enclosures and they are never used. 
Thanks! 
Ed


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

The one with live tads is on the floor, at about 45 degrees




Ed Martin said:


> Eric,
> Are you keeping your tad cups on the floor of the enclosure? I got that impression when you said the java grew out of them, but I just want to verify. I keep placing mine high in the enclosures and they are never used.
> Thanks!
> Ed


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

I keep all the cups on the floor of the tanks, some of them were at 45 degree angles but most are upright. It doesn;t seem that the frogs prefer one orientation to another.

Thanks
ERIc


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

*YIPPPEEEEEEEE !!!!!!*

I noticed a female with a tad on her back today... A little agile wiggler! 
Made my day! 












bradadams said:


> I would let them be. Were the eggs laid there or were they transported? I'm not sure the parents will care for them unless they were transported. Hopefully they will though.


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## Guest (May 14, 2005)

Has anyone tried taking tads out and then collecting eggs you see laid to feed the tads?

I know this has the negative impact of not re-inforcing the whole parental care trait, but still I wonder if you could save/raise neglected tads this way.

-Tad


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## bradadams (Jun 3, 2004)

Tad,

People have tried it but so far they have not been so successful in getting the tadpoles to morph out. Many don't make it or morph out with spindly. 

Brad


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I do it on a regular basis with both pumilio eggs and the eggs of other dendrobatids. With pumilio eggs the success rate is much higher than that of using other dendro eggs. As far as spindly, I've only had problems with this when the frogs were already having spindly problems when raised by the parents. It also seems to depend on the type of frog as to the degree of success. I have more success with Man Creeks on other dendro eggs than I have had with Bastis and Blue Jeans on the same diet.


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