# Help Me Choose My Darts!



## Frogfeet (Mar 2, 2012)

Hey everyone, I am new to the forum but not new to the hobby. I am currently setting up a new viv, and want some feedback on the darts I was thinking about putting in it. 

It will be a natural vivarium using a 29 gallon tank. The vivarium will have a cork bark and clay background covered in plants, water feature, misting system, glass top with T8 lighting, and other items. 

I need some help choosing what darts are best for my setup. I'm trying to choose between Dendrobates leucomelas, Dendrobates ventrimaculatus, and Phyllobates vittatus. They will most likely be kept in a group of four. 

I'm leaning towards one of the Dendrobates, but tell me what you think. And sorry for the long post


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

If you want a group leucomelas are your best bet. Easy, bold, and beautiful!


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

I just got leucs and they are awesome! I see all of them every day, they love to hop around and come up to the glass even. They are really fun frogs. Dont have anything to compare them to though.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I've got a breeding group of 5 vittatus in a 20 long which I believe is the same footprint as a 29 gal. If it were me I would do put the vittatus in the 29gal. They'll use every bit of that viv. They'll be shy as juvis but will settle in as adults and be bolder. They have lovely contrasting metallic colors and a call almost as loud as the leucs and every bit as pleasant. Just my opinion. BTW, I keep all three species you mentioned and I would still pick the vittatus.


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## ocellaris123 (Jun 13, 2011)

I would go with the leucs. They are really bold and each frog has a unique pattern to them.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I think Ranitomeya ventrimaculata will benefit more from a taller tank, like one vertically upright.

The other two choices are good ones for your tank size for sure! 

1)Phyllobates vittatus will be entertaining to watch when it comes to feeding them, because they are so voracious...they'll do the "lunge" action at their food, it's good stuff!
2)Dendrobates leucomelas will be more catchy, aesthetically, in the tank, and definitely more charismatic and bold in their venturing about!

Both are excellent communal frogs, I think the Leucs beat out the Vitts in terms of loudness when the males are 'singing'(also in duration) but its close.

What you can do is setup ONE tank now, and then in a few months fix to setting up a SECOND one with the other species(let's be honest, once you have the..'bug', you have it but good!)


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## Frogfeet (Mar 2, 2012)

I have heard alot about leucs being very active, bold, and loud, but it seems like everyone has leucs. I do like that they have vibrant color and display the classic dartfrog image.

Are any of the frogs I listed die hard arboreal? From what yours said it seems like ventrimaculatus is, and would be out. 

I will most likely add another 29 in the future and have just two 29s as well as my retf viv. 

Will Phyllobates vittatus use the whole heighth viv all the time or just occasionally?

Thanks for all the replies!


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

the vents are very aboreal, as are most thumbs. I don't know much about either, vents or vitts. I do know that leucs are a fantastic begginer frog.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

I wouldn't be put off of a frog because "everyone" has them. Leucs are common within the hobby, but unless everyone you know has em they'll still be pretty uncommon within your group of friends. 

Leucs are going to be my next species, so I can't give personal advice yet, but most people will tell you that they'll use every inch of your tank if you design it well.


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## Frogfeet (Mar 2, 2012)

I agree with that freaky_tah. I really think they would stand out more. They seem like they would be alot of fun to start with.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I used to be a big reefer, worked in some aquarium shops in high school, and hated clown fish 'cause they were so common. After getting a pair I realized there's a reason they're everywhere - bright colors, cool personality, hardy, pretty much everything you want in a fish. 
While I don't have any of the frogs you asked about I'd recommend trying to overlook the "rarity" of leucs. Similar to clowns, there're good reasons why so many people have them!


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## Equidoc2013 (Nov 28, 2011)

Frogfeet said:


> I have heard alot about leucs being very active, bold, and loud, but it seems like everyone has leucs.
> Thanks for all the replies!


Everyone has leucs for a reason! Because they're wonderful frogs!


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Frogfeet said:


> Hey everyone, I am new to the forum but not new to the hobby. I am currently setting up a new viv, and want some feedback on the darts I was thinking about putting in it.
> 
> It will be a natural vivarium using a 29 gallon tank. The vivarium will have a cork bark and clay background covered in plants, water feature, misting system, glass top with T8 lighting, and other items.
> 
> ...


30 gallon sounds good for a few leucs. Good luck!

P.S. Ventrimaculata was split into imitator and amazonica. It's not one species anymore.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Equidoc2013 said:


> Everyone has leucs


Not me. I can't find any


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Frogfeet said:


> I have heard alot about leucs being very active, bold, and loud, but it seems like everyone has leucs.


Honestly, I believe all three of the frogs that you listed are quite common. But, why would you rule one out simply because it seems like "everyone" has them? Take that out of the equation and choose the one that interests you the most...that's the best chance of success that you'll have (and the frog, too!).


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## Frogfeet (Mar 2, 2012)

I think I'm going to end up going with Dendrobates leucomelas. I really like their personality. I definitely realize now that the reason it might seem like ''everyone'' has them is because they are such great frogs. Thanks everyone for your helpful replies and comments. I'm already planning the setup of 3-4 20 gallons to house more of the Dendrobate species after I get the leucs perfect. 

P.S. if anyone wants to show off their leuc vivs go ahead, I need some ideas!

Thanks again everyone


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Congrats on your choice...I'm sure you'll love them.

Don't tell my tincs (they'd be heartbroken!), but I hope to have a group of them myself someday soon. I would love to get a little more noise in the frogroom...right now it's just one male terribilis that I can easily hear and my 80's music. Lol!


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> Congrats on your choice...I'm sure you'll love them.
> 
> Don't tell my tincs (they'd be heartbroken!), but I hope to have a group of them myself someday soon. I would love to get a little more noise in the frogroom...right now it's just one male terribilis that I can easily hear and my 80's music. Lol!


If your poor frogs have to listen to Wham! one more time.....


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Lol! At least you said it was Wham! and not my singing (which is horrendous btw!) And after all this time I thought Lionel Richie would help put them in the mood... (sigh) No wonder I'm down to three tads!


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

+1 for Leucs!


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## Affordable Exotics (Mar 1, 2012)

Look into Lamasi, mine call alot and I see them all the time.


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## Frogfeet (Mar 2, 2012)

Would horizontal 20H's be fitting for a pair or trio of frogs? The lower shelf of my rack will be four 20H's and I want to hold a pair to trio in each with frogs such as, auratus, azureus, tinctorius, and leucomelas. Would this work? Then I would have a 29 gallon display and possibly another 20L or 29 gallon display. Also would you use LECA/hydroton in the bottom tanks?


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## Equidoc2013 (Nov 28, 2011)

Yes and yes!


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## Lance (Sep 8, 2008)

Hmm im surprised no one has said tricolors or galacts... Tricolors are a blast great first frogs IMO. Great group frog also. Now Galacts can be hit or miss for boldness but colors wise bright yellow, orange, and red with jet black underside bellies, a must for everyones collection.


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## misteja (Dec 18, 2009)

I agree 100% on Leucs. They were my first frogs (a group of 5) in a converted 55 gal reef tank. They are bold, beautiful and LOUD, which is nice in the wintertime to have outdoorsey sounds in the house.

No current tank shots, but here's an old post of mine http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/67422-leucs-close-up.html#post589715that shows the 5-parent group (who have now had around 25 little ones), and a video MVI_0157 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! of a male calling.

You really can't go wrong with them. Like others have said, they may be "common", but they're new to you, and a great way to get started in the hobby.


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## love_chariot (Sep 1, 2011)

From what it sounds like you are interested in I would recommend leucs, auratus, tincs or galacs. All four are hardy, generally out and about and with the exception of tincs can be kept in small groups. 

Leucs: Can deal with a wide range of conditions, noisy callers, deal well with groups. Inexpensive and breed easily.

Auratus: Many metallic morphs (if you are interested in that sort of thing) Can be somewhat shy. Pretty hardy and easy to maintain. Can be in groups.

Tincs: Pairs are best, sometimes trios with two males/1 female. 2 females will go after each other, 75g plus for more than one pair. Beautiful coloring, bold, pretty hardy. Quiet call, inexpensive and breed well. 

Galacs: Can deal with higher temps, good for hotter climates. Beautiful bold colors and the frogs are pretty active. From my reading they breed better if the tank has two pairs. Harder to gender diagnose from what I read.

I have leucs, two types of tincs and pumilio and they all have their drawbacks and benefits. It's more up to what you are drawn to.

From what you have written I would recommend that you get 3-4 leucs for your 29. Remember when determining number, you must subtract the volume of the plants and substrate + leca from the total volume, a 20 gallon filled to the brim could have as low as 3-4 gallons of actual space for frogs. Aim for closer to 10g per frog as opposed to 5g, your frogs will appreciate it. 

As for your plans to get some trios in the future. That is a great idea, but don't put trios in a 20 gallon, unless they are thumbs. Even with the most space available you would be limiting your frogs to maybe 3-4 gallons a piece. 20g tall would suit pairs of leucs, galacs and auratus, tincs are way less of climbers and need more floor space.

Good luck on everything, Hope this was helpful


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## Frogfeet (Mar 2, 2012)

Yeah I'm thinking that I will do leucs for the display since they can be in groups, which will make for an active tank. And love_chariot, yeah I was planning on just doing some pairs in each 20 gallon.


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## glass frog (Dec 19, 2011)

Luecs are not the most commen just because the breed well, work in groups, have great patterns, have an awesome call and are a good viewable size... 
They are just a cool frog as well


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## love_chariot (Sep 1, 2011)

Sorry to be pushy before, I had read another post elsewhere in which a breeder was discussing breeding and keeping trios and pairs in 10g tanks and it stressed me out. Leucs are great and will make you very happy. I'm currently working on a travel viv so I can take them to my school and share with my students. Now all you have to do is choose standard, striped, fine spotted, green toed or chocolate, and which importation. Some imports are larger than others and could be any number of shades from yellow to orange. Someone near you locally should have stock available, but if you enjoy hunting around, the interweb is full of great breeders. Some places like Josh's frogs offer deals for purchasing four or more frogs. Happy Frogging!


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## Frogfeet (Mar 2, 2012)

So I'm thinking of turning the 29 display tank into a 55 gallon display tank. What do you all think. Would metal shelves hold a 55 gallon tank? So I would have a 55 gallon display with four 20 gallons.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

Just browsing threads and found yours. Curious to how your progress and decisions have come along. I know plans and schedules can change as things develop. I recently just started with my first viv. I placed 0.0.6. leucs into a 150 gallon. I'm already thinking of my next build and next frog.
So, how has things developed for ya'?
-Chris


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