# Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply



## carola1155

*This thread is being created as a companion to the original
"Dart Frog Warehouse" thread.*​
Feel free to continue your discussions here. We understand that you all have concerns and issues you want to discuss. This thread is a platform for you to continue to do that. However, keep in mind that it is still a moderated section of the forum. As such, it is expected that you keep the content within the confines of the *User Agreement*

A couple things to keep in mind:


User Agreement said:


> DB requires each member to maintain a respectful, friendly, and civil approach to every discussion, posting, chat, image, advertisement, etc





User Agreement said:


> Each DB member is strictly forbidden from posting, writing, displaying, discussing or causing to be posted, written, displayed, or discussed any abusive, obscene, vulgar, hateful, libelous, threatening, or sexually-oriented material or, further, any other material that may violate any applicable law.


Since we have had problems with it in the past, any mention of religion in this thread will result in an immediate BAN from the site (length determined at the judgement of the Moderator)

Also, leave your memes/youtube videos at home.

Keep it clean everyone...


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## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well, I don't like the closing nor do I feel this is an appropriate forum, but I suppose it is good to have some kind of discussion. 

In my phone conversation with Rick, he knocked Repashy and then said that they (DFW) will be coming out with their own supplement.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> In my phone conversation with Rick, he knocked Repashy and then said that they (DFW) will be coming out with their own supplement.


Interesting. 

Would anyone actually trust them to even know what needs to be in a proper supplement.

On the one hand you have Allen Repashy with years of experience creating supplements and foods for countless species, not just dart frogs. He has actually done the research to know the requirements for each species. He is trusted by hobbyists, zoos, aquariums, and researchers around the world.

On the other hand, you have the Wascher's, self proclaimed scientists who have demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of proper supplementation and it's proper use. Let's recall that they don't know why you don't reuse the limited waste left over after using a supplement, nor do they know how to properly use supplements so that too much waste is not generated. Does anyone actually think they will use quality ingredients? In the proper proportions? Will properly labels, store, cycle a vitamin supplement. Irrelevant to us really, as nobody here would buy it, but it could harm the people they do sell to.

What they'll probably do is pay someone else to fill bottles for them with an established product and rebrand it with their logos, claim it is something special, and refuse to release what is actually in it. They'll claim they're protecting their intellectual property or some other garbage.

Now here is the fun part for Rick, when he catches up. This is something I know something about, because I delt with specifically importing products without labels that conform to US regulations(importing products from Japan and Europe for aquarium use, food, water additives, etc.) It is impossible, they don't care, you will have to print what is in the label on the bottle. If and or when you do this, know that I know exactly who to report you to if your products are not labeled correctly. This goes to the safety of children who you admit are your target clients who could be adversely effected if they ingest an improperly labeled product.


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## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'd also like to call on our Tennessee members to go to the show the Waschers are attending Vendors - Nashville Exotic Pet Expo April 12-13, 2014
October 11-12, 2014
Tennessee State Fairgrounds
Saturday from 9 am till 4 pm
Sunday from 9 am till 3 pm
Admission $5

You guys should stand at their table, steer away all interested persons, direct them here, to the thread as well, so they can buy QUALITY dart frogs from reputable people. And take pics/videos of their stuff, pepper them with questions and for god sakes talk to poor Dillon. Let's see if he really has that genius head on his shoulders. Maybe he can turn out to be a hobbyiest for the better. Time we fought back, and that has to start with Rick. I wish I could hop on a plane and cause my own stink.


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## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> I'd also like to call on our Tennessee members to go to the show the Waschers are attending Vendors - Nashville Exotic Pet Expo April 12-13, 2014
> October 11-12, 2014
> Tennessee State Fairgrounds
> Saturday from 9 am till 4 pm
> Sunday from 9 am till 3 pm
> Admission $5
> 
> You guys should stand at their table, steer away all interested persons, direct them here, to the thread as well, so they can buy QUALITY dart frogs from reputable people. And take pics/videos of their stuff, pepper them with questions and for god sakes talk to poor Dillon. Let's see if he really has that genius head on his shoulders. Maybe he can turn out to be a hobbyiest for the better. Time we fought back, and that has to start with Rick. I wish I could hop on a plane and cause my own stink.


That would be funny to have 20 froggers chip in on a table and bring their inventories and charge $1 less than DFW on everything while handing out informational sheets. 

Doug - Yeah they are opening a can of worms for sure with their own supplements. I took an animal nutrition class a couple of semesters ago and we went into detail for maybe a week about all of the guidelines that have to be followed. There are so many hoops to jump through, I'm sure 1 or 2 will be missed. The justifications for why their supplements will dominate Allen Repashy's will be an interesting read. Since they are mixing experts, they will probably just mix the pink jar with the blue jar and call it the Cal-RepTM.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

As an example on the issue of waste. USDARTfrog claims the repashy products have too much waste.

No, they don't. USDARTfrog creates too much waste when using their products because they don't know how to use them properly.

This picture shows the amount of waste I had left over this morning feeding out 18 vivariums and 22 growout containers. This is the combines waste from three types of flies, hydei, Turkish gliders, and wingless Melos. 67 collection frogs, and approximately 100 froglets. No where near the thousands of frogs they CLAIM to be raising, but a tiny amount of waste. Even if you were to extrapolate this to the amount of frogs USDARTfrog allegedly raises, it would still be a tiny insignificant amount. 

And yes, I'll be throwing this out because unlike USDARTfrog, I don't have an unrealistic and uninformed expectation of reusability because I understand WHY this supplement, and any other supplement should NEVER be reused after this. Wanting to be able to reuse the left over Shake is just being lazy and cheep.


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## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Well, I don't like the closing nor do I feel this is an appropriate forum, but I suppose it is good to have some kind of discussion.
> 
> In my phone conversation with Rick, he knocked Repashy and then said that they (DFW) will be coming out with their own supplement.


LoL... ok ya sure, can't wait to see them try that. I hope they try. The time/expense it will cost to take on Repashy and then fail will put them out of business faster. 

At least Repashy can show up to a forum and talk to people in the hobby without starting world war 3.


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## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> LoL... ok ya sure, can't wait to see them try that. I hope they try. The time/expense it will cost to take on Repashy and then fail will put them out of business faster.
> 
> At least Repashy can show up to a forum and talk to people in the hobby without starting world war 3.


Not to mention that Allen Repashy WELCOMES the opportunity to discuss his formulas with real scientists.


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## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> Not to mention that Allen Repashy WELCOMES the opportunity to discuss his formulas with real scientists.


I am so glad that there are quality people in this hobby. because there is no question in my mind that whatever DFW comes up with it will be trademarked, and held as a "trade secret". there is no chance you will ever get them to discuss what is in the stuff.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Charlie Q said:


> I am so glad that there are quality people in this hobby. because there is no question in my mind that whatever DFW comes up with it will be trademarked, and held as a "trade secret". there is no chance you will ever get them to discuss what is in the stuff.


If they're going to package it and sell it, especially as a suppliment for feeding an animal, they will have to disclose the ingredients. This is a federal law. As I mentioned previously, I worked for a company that was importing aquarium products, foods, supplements etc, from Japan. They could not be sold without proper labeling. We eventually had to have labels that conformed to US regulations printed to be placed on the bottles.

For example, even Dendrocare which is imported from Europe is properly labeled.

Not that I think anyone would use a vitamin suppliment if the vendor refused to disclose the contents. You're just supposed to trust them? I think not.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> Not to mention that Allen Repashy WELCOMES the opportunity to discuss his formulas with real scientists.


Not only that, but he often gives free samples for hobbyists to test, then welcomes our feedback in order to refine his products. And Rick has the nerve to accuse Repashy of having paid advocates. NEWSFLASH Rick, were all advocates because they're quality products and Repashy is a standup honest company that helps the hobby unlike USDARTfrog. We know that you resort to libel and disparage a quality product to make yourself sound educated and important, when in reality you further expose yourself and your business as a fraud.

You couldn't pay me to test USDARTfrog products.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Someone in the previous thread suggested that the reason why USDARTfrog may advertise these frogs as "NO" poison dart frogs is because of the Tennessee state law prohibiting Poisonous Amphibians.

I took it upon myself to inquire with one of the wildlife officials there and can say that this is NOT the case. Dart frogs ARE legal except in a couple cases.

Tennessee is only concerned with Phyllobates terribilis and wild caught frogs. Frogs that are captive bred are completely legal and are of no concern. Why P. terribilis, because of the paper that showed they're still capable of producing some alkaloids, and even then they said they were only really recommending against that species. It was mentioned that long term captives of wild caught origin were probably ok since they loose their toxicity. The defining issue is that the animals have to actually be capable of being injurious to humans. Poisonous must actually define their current state, and since CB frogs are not poisonous they are not subject to the provisions of the law.

Interestingly enough since my wife recently received an interview request for a surgical job in Tennessee, it gave me an opportunity to inquire about the legality of my collection if we move do there.


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## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

More laughs from the Wascher comedy ... (science) ... team:



safedartfrog.com website said:


> Newly Purchased
> The information in this category will expand over time.
> 
> 
> " ...how long do you suggest sweater boxing [bin enclosure] them? I've heard different stories based on age, so I wanted to see your thoughts since they are your frogs. I have a 15 gallon vivarium I was going to use, and I am working on getting springtails for a food source (and fruit flies)."
> 
> In the Viv they go! We raise our frogs in groups and the groups get slimmed down to the 2 pair population as they get older. Sure we start in the bin/sweater box but at 3 months our frogs are very large. (That no methylparaben drum we beat on is real.)
> 
> With that said, the age is really not the issue, it is size and can they hunt. If they are of a size to athletically move about, hop, and navigate a space then by all means give them the room to roam. A lot of frog sellers ship tiny, fragile frogs, presumably because they would rather make money than care for frogs and that says a lot to us. We care first, then sell! If they tell you to put them in a Sterilite bin or other small enclosure, consider not buying because they are so small and young. Each and every frog we sell can hop, move about easily and hunt. They are ready for a vivarium.
> 
> In their new vivarium, it is best to use a feeding station area to start so they can find the "spot" and dine there without much difficulty. You may need to coax them to the feeding area, but I doubt it. They know what that (a feeding station) is because that is what we do here before you get the frogs. They should already be trained to eat at a feeding station, just not familiar with the new digs and where the dining area is located. Of course as flies disperse they get very good at surrounding them, and exercise on their hunts.
> 
> Later, when they see you open the lid/door they will come to you. If you put a few flies on your hand and introduce your hand first they will eventually hop into your hand and feed. Then, they will simply hop into your hand. We do it here with our breeders. They seem to like it, because right after, they get fed ...Pavlovian I guess.


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## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Actually encouraging a keeper to pour flies on their hand, then stick the hand into an enclosure in the hopes of having the frogs crawl directly onto them...just a baffling recommendation! 
Anyone want to wager a guess as to how soon one of their customers follows their suggestion and becomes seriously ill with Salmonella, Chlamydia, or any number of other potential diseases that amphibians can transmit? 
You would think that a family that claims to have a legal background would be a little more concerned about being the target of a lawsuit. Additionally, it really seems like they are marketing to children, which makes this all the more dangerous.


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## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> More laughs from the Wascher comedy ... (science) ... team:


Yep take their "word" for it and throw them into a viv.... not to mention "hand feed them." 
No QT, age has nothing to do with QT. Duh!
Next they will sell frog collars and leashes on their site...
Their claims etc. Remind me of South Park.


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## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Bcs TX said:


> Yep take their "word" for it and throw them into a viv.... not to mention "hand feed them."
> No QT, age has nothing to do with QT. Duh!
> Next they will sell frog collars and leashes on their site...
> Their claims etc. Remind me of South Park.


Don't forget sweaters... Amphibians are cold blooded so on those cold days they'll appreciate that you cared enough to get them an official DFW turtleneck


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## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not trying to change the subject but are they really starting to hybridize? I'm not sure if I'm clear on what they are doing with designer frogs. And eating out of the hand is both dangerous to the frog and human...not everyone is meticulous about washing hands and could transmit pathogens to frogs, not to mention the other way around. Not a smart move.


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## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> Actually encouraging a keeper to pour flies on their hand, then stick the hand into an enclosure in the hopes of having the frogs crawl directly onto them...just a baffling recommendation!
> Anyone want to wager a guess as to how soon one of their customers follows their suggestion and becomes seriously ill with Salmonella, Chlamydia, or any number of other potential diseases that amphibians can transmit?
> You would think that a family that claims to have a legal background would be a little more concerned about being the target of a lawsuit. Additionally, it really seems like they are marketing to children, which makes this all the more dangerous.


Not to mention the fact that the frogs could catch illness from oils and other nasties on the keepers skin.


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## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Not to mention the fact that the frogs could catch illness from oils and other nasties on the keepers skin.


I thought about that too, but we are already aware of their lack of concern for the animals. I was hoping that the danger of sickening their customers and facing legal repercussions might make them pull that part of the site.


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## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> I thought about that too, but we are already aware of their lack of concern for the animals. I was hoping that the danger of sickening their customers and facing legal repercussions might make them pull that part of the site.


as non-members, can they even see this conversation now that it is in the lounge? I feel really sad for the kid whose entire life is screwed over from catching salmonella from these people's bad advice. if there was something i could do to stop that, i would.


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## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Charlie Q said:


> as non-members, can they even see this conversation now that it is in the lounge?


It can be seen by anyone. That is why it is in the lounge. They wouldn't be able to see it in the thunderdome (where most people suggested it should go) 

Anyone can see it here. That was intentional. Not necessarily for them... But for other people that may be looking for information about them. There is a bit of thought behind the things we do every once in a while


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## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> It can be seen by anyone. That is why it is in the lounge. They wouldn't be able to see it in the thunderdome (where most people suggested it should go)
> 
> Anyone can see it here. That was intentional. Not necessarily for them... But for other people that may be looking for information about them.


Don't forget to add tags to the thread to make it easier for people to find the information they are searching for.


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## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> *Level I Dart Frogs
> Captive Bred
> SAFE® no poison dart frog varieties that are:
> (1.) known to exist in the wild,
> (2.) imported into the United States of America,
> (3.) captive bred as pets from same variety parents, and
> (4.) the offspring is "True" or "Pure" offspring, i.e., the same variety as both parents. *


I think we all know what Level II is going to be ...


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## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> I think we all know what Level II is going to be ...


They could save themselves some typing and simplify things by just phrasing it like this...

Step 1. Piss everyone off.

Step 2. REALLY piss everyone off.

Step 3. ...Fail, and go out of business.

Or the even shorter version...

1. Fail.
2. Fail..
3 Fail... and go out of business. 

Oh and DFW/usdartwhatchamacall yourselves these days... Feel free to copy paste and trademark the above statements


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## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Dear Ricky,



safedartfrogs.com website" said:


> Their mixed offspring reproduce easily and naturally to create a next generation offspring. In fact, fertile first clutches from pairs of wild caught replacements (i.e., mature offspring of same species, dissimilar variety parents) are the norm, 100% of the time, so far. Stated another way for complete clarity, the first generation offspring (F1) of a proven pair of same species (tinctorius), but dissimilar parents in the context of variety, are themselves most definitely capable of breeding and producing 2nd generation offspring of their kind. This fact has always been disputed, but we have proven the answer with applied science that now debunks the theoretical. Mixed tinctorius in the context of variety are NOT hybrids


1) Wrong! You've manufactured this controversy to support your mixed morph frogs. The fact that populations (morphs,varieties, locales) of the same species can successfully produce fertile offspring has never been disputed by hobbyists and most certainly not by scientists. Either you still don't understand population biology and genetics or you choose to ignore the science in lieu of profits.

2) The fact that they can successfully produce fertile offspring does not mean that future generations will breed true to the traits of the resultant F1 offspring. Subsequent generations are usually quite variable and I suspect you will soon find this out ... or your unsuspecting customers will find out and probably be quite unhappy. Again, a total lack of understanding of population biology and genetics.

3) Your "applied science" has not debunked anything since there was nothing theoretical to the contrary. Additionally, you've never supplied any results or data to support the many claims you've made under the name of science. Those of us who are real scientists (not the kind that claim to be based on a definition from Websters) share our results and data ... this is how science advances. Your "science" is in fact "pseudoscience" ... if one is to actually believe that you're actually conducting any experimentation (which I do not). 



safedartfrogs.com website" said:


> Any use of the non-scientific term hybrid would apply to "hybrid vigor." Hybrid Vigor is a natural phenomenon whereby the offspring of same species mixed variety animal offspring are more hardy and in many, many,ways considered genetically superior and "better" than either parents.


1) The term hybrid most certainly has a scientific definition. 

2) Hybrid vigor (heterosis) does not occur with all hybrids or even the majority of hybrids. In fact, negative heterosis (less fit individuals) is also a likely outcome. 

3) Had you done even the slightest amount of research on the topic, you would have found that the term  DOES NOT imply "genetic superiority". This is made very clear in all of the literature. Even your favorite source, Wikipedia, makes this crystal clear.



safedartfrogs.com website" said:


> Thus to say the offspring of mixed varietal tinctorius are weak, sickly, abnormal, ort anything deragatory is balderdash. Web will help (re)define F1 and F2 in the context of captive bred frogs in the coming months.


1) What's "balderdash" is all the crap that you spew on your website in order to dupe potential customers.

2) Again, a controversy that never existed ... until you created it in another attempt to justify and profit from mixed morph frogs.

3) You won't redefine F1 or F2, but you will reinforce the term "mutt".

If your goal is to produce and sell mixed morph frogs, grow some balls and just say so rather than creating controversy that never existed, inflating your experience and credentials, and totally misrepresenting the science to support your agenda.

Stop hiding behind your kids and your pseudoscience and man up!


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## grendel88

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

As an instructor, there are a couple of little things that irritate me. Here is one of them. Rick likes to show the "proved" all of this stuff through science (no matter how deficient). Science as a general rule does not "prove" anything. Otherwise, you would have idiots running around saying they are changing the world with poor ideas.

The other thing is how the man in the yellow hat always refers to Curious George as a monkey. CLEARLY, he is an ape. 

My two cents.


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## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"The good ones"?

Kingsnake.com Classifieds: CB Auratus Microspot 6-8 mos. old, very large, TWO (2) Frog Group $66.95, pure microspot!

Stay tuned for "The bad ones" and "The ugly ones"

Donn, you are right. Rick has obviously had zero education in this area. I guess he didn't make it to the part about independent assortment on Yahoo answers yet. Or a bell shaped curve.

Rick - If your frogs are all "superior" as you claim, how do you test and measure that? Do you expose all of your frogs to harsh conditions, disease, and excess stress to determine which ones are genetically superior? What % of the offspring do you cull that do not meet your high standards? Please enlighten me. I know you aren't going to respond because of what type of a person you are. But the ONLY credible quote that comes from you, also describes yourself spot on, perfectly...

"Sometimes scientists are to weak to rest on something they cannot explain, so they make stuff up." <---Rick Wascher this is you.


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## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



grendel88 said:


> As an instructor, there are a couple of little things that irritate me. Here is one of them. Rick likes to show the "proved" all of this stuff through science (no matter how deficient). Science as a general rule does not "prove" anything. Otherwise, you would have idiots running around saying they are changing the world with poor ideas.


Yep and the use of the term "prove" is a strong indicator that there isn't even a rudimentary understanding of the scientific method.

Even more amusing is this dandy:



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> While our work continues, we have *reproved* Lotters, et al., in the area of captive bred dart frogs and frog breeding.


Reprove? Now that's funny. It's especially amusing considering that the Lotters et al. neither attempt to address any hypothesis nor "prove" anything. It is simply a review of existing literature and husbandry practices. One day Rick may actually read all the way to the end and find that little section we fondly refer to as "Literature Cited" and eventually find his way to the primary sources. Of course he wouldn't want to do that because then he would find that his assumptions and interpretations are flawed.

It's difficult to tell whether this bozo is truly this ignorant of basic scientific and biological principles or whether he is intentionally misrepresenting the science in order to promote his own agenda. I suspect it's a combination of both ...


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## grendel88

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Reprove? Now that's funny. It's especially amusing considering that the Lotters et al. neither attempt to address any hypothesis nor "prove" anything. It is simply a review of existing literature and husbandry practices. One day Rick may actually read all the way to the end and find that little section we fondly refer to as "Literature Cited" and eventually find his way to the primary sources. Of course he wouldn't want to do that because then he would find that his assumptions and interpretations are flawed.
> 
> 
> 
> edwardsatc said:
> 
> 
> 
> This "reprove" idea really annoys me. The Waschers make it seem as if they are a group of respected scientists and that there are people whom care what they think. This reminds me The Three Amigos. They are more than famous. They are IN-famous!
> 
> Lol
Click to expand...


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## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Their mixed offspring reproduce easily and naturally to create a next generation offspring. In fact, fertile first clutches from pairs of wild caught replacements (i.e., mature offspring of same species, dissimilar variety parents) are the norm, 100% of the time, so far. Stated another way for complete clarity, the first generation offspring (F1) of a proven pair of same species (tinctorius), but dissimilar parents in the context of variety, are themselves most definitely capable of breeding and producing 2nd generation offspring of their kind. This fact has always been disputed, but we have proven the answer with applied science that now debunks the theoretical. Mixed tinctorius in the context of variety are NOT hybrids. Any use of the non-scientific term hybrid would apply to "hybrid vigor." Hybrid Vigor, heterosis, and "out breeding" mean the same thing, and is a natural phenomenon whereby the offspring of same species mixed variety animal offspring are more hardy and in many, many, ways considered genetically superior and "better" than either parents. This is not always the case in the animal kingdom, but it with these frogs in the wild and captive bred as we do. Thus, to say the offspring of mixed varietal tinctorius are weak, sickly, abnormal, or anything derogatory is balderdash.


Nice try at some corrections Ricky, but still ignorant of population biology and genetics, appears to be intentionally misleading, and "balderdash" (as you would call it).



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> We will help (re)define F1 and F2 in the context of captive bred frogs in the coming months.The dart frog hobby supports outbreeding and because we have shown the tinctorius is indeed a polymorphic species and breeding different varieties does indeed produce the benefits of outbreeding, *we expect the hobby will, over time, embrace the ecology and conservation of captive bred frogs and the practice will blossom, and a new hobby will emerge.*


1) You may "expect" that outcome, but I think that thousands of negative responses on multiple forums tells another story ...

2) *You* did not show that _D.tinctorius_ is polymorphic nor have you "reproven" it. Polymorphism in the species has has been noted for decades by many established and reputable scientists and was well established long before you laid eyes on your first dart frog. (Additionally, in order for *you* to show anything requires *data* and *statistically significant results*. Neither have been produced by you.)

3) As I said previously, you will not (and cannot) redefine filial generations. You will only reinforce the term "mutt".


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Which two frogs from the same region in the wild do you think mated to yield the VillaNova, True Sip, and/or BLUE FROST above? Feel free to use our BLUE FROST picture (above), Lotters et al. chart below, and the Morphguide from Tinctoroius.ch as a guide. We know by phenotype mapping, but unfortunately, because our breeding programs are so highly confidential and will remain so, we will not disclose the parental combination(s) of our BlueFrost to anyone other than *our FrogDudes™, a breeding program to be defined later.* We hope you understand, but again, we will never offer for sale, sell, or in any way distribute any frog as a wild caught version, common dart frog, classic, true morph or "pure" frog offspring from same species dissimilar parents as a wild caught replacement, or anything of any kind...etc., without being absolutely up front and transparent as to what it is, or is not.


For those following this ridiculousness, FrogDude.com is another domain that Rick has purchased. Probably another attempt to put some distance between his mutt frogs and the forum threads.

Domain Name: FROGDUDE.COM
Registrar URL: Domain Names | The World's Largest Domain Name Registrar - GoDaddy
Registrant Name: Rick Wascher
Registrant Organization: 
Name Server: NS09.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server: NS10.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
DNSSEC: unsigned


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> 1) You may "expect" that outcome, but I think that thousands of negative responses on multiple forums tells another story ...


I think Donn has a key point here... The only thing revolutionary happening here is that no one has been this willing to piss off this many people so completely in the hopes of... well what? ...Differentiating themselves from the competition 

Well congratulations DFW/frogdude etc..etc.., you've succeeded. The arrogance it takes to sit there and still think you're completely right and justified in your practices despite the outrage is just mind boggling  ...Now please go back to forcing your way of thinking and doing things onto an entire hobby community all for the sake of lining your pocket book. At this point is is almost entertaining, in a pathetic way like watching someone who is a true jerk get shot down by girl after girl at a bar.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

And then there's Rick's "Science" page:

Science - Expert Understanding

Wow, that's a lot of ignorance piled in one heap. So rather than debunking this mountain of bullshit piece by piece (or turd by turd, as it may be), we can debunk the whole pile with two words ... "Geographic polymorphism".

Look it up Ricky, you might actually learn something.  But then, you aren't really looking for the facts, are you?


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> It's difficult to tell whether this bozo is truly this ignorant of basic scientific and biological principles or whether he is intentionally misrepresenting the science in order to promote his own agenda. I suspect it's a combination of both ...


I know what you mean. He will define a term (polymorphism, phenotype, whatever) and the definition is usually pretty accurate, but then he will use it out of context and stretch the application of the term to cover arguments that don't really hold up. It's murky as to whether he's just so caught up in the debate that he doesn't realize the logical acrobatics it took to get there, or if he's just 1000% set on a conclusion already and will lie, cheat, and steal just to arrive there. 

A typical argument goes like this. He'll make a statement like "Frogs CAN interbreed" early in the argument. OK, makes sense. Later in the paragraph he will say something like "...and since we know that frogs DO interbreed in the wild". Well, kinda', right? Under certain circumstances crossbreed intergrades can and do occur. It's definitely not the norm. Then later in the argument he will make a statement with the implication that we SHOULD be crossbreeding because it's an ecologically sound decisions, and he's using his previous two statements as the sole proof for that argument! Then the next statement is something like "...and we here at USdartfrogs are the only ones doing what we SHOULD be doing, crossbreeding". That's one heck of a conclusion to come to when really the only 100% accurate statement you made is that frogs CAN interbreed. 

It's a weird debate tactic and he could teach a class on it - "How to Argue With Dumb People 101". It's almost like a typical person will accept a 10% inaccuracy in any statement without challenging it. If you're willing to push it all you need is a ten-point argument and you can prove anything. 

I keep reading his statements and they are so slanted I think "Oh, he just doesn't know. He misunderstands the term", but then when I see the minor corrections he makes to close up the debate loopholes but never addresses the underlying anti-logic, I realize that it's just a debate for him and he can really only afford to come to one conclusion because he's based his business model on it.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*









Must be they've taken their "innovations" to a new level. What do you think vintage baseball mitts have to do with frogs?  lol


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> I realize that it's just a debate for him and he can really only afford to come to one conclusion because he's based his business model on it.


And I'd be willing to bet that he's already got a bunch of mutt frogs he needs to unload.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Here's a fun quote from their site...

*"we know of MANY reputable froggers and love them!!!"*

I challenge them to find one *reputable* frogger that loves them back... and will admit it publicly.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Why do they keep knocking Repashy?

Feeder Culturing
Independent, multiple customer tests, proves our media out-performs Repashy fly culture media!


Important scientific lesson Rick: Just because you say something doesn't mean it's true. If you make a claim like that or all the others, and refuse to back it up/publish the results of your "studies", then you can't say that. There is nothing to back you up, and compound this with your horrible reputation and general crappynes, nobody will even think about considering your results.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Here's a fun quote from their site...
> 
> *"we know of MANY reputable froggers and love them!!!"*
> 
> I challenge them to find one *reputable* frogger that loves them back... and will admit it publicly.


Here's another fun quote Dave:



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Now we offer: DENDROBED™ and DENDROLID™ our newest innovations *ripe for release*.


The only thing ripe is the mountain of bullshit on the Northeast side of Memphis.

... obviously, I'm bored today ...


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Why do they keep knocking Repashy?
> 
> Feeder Culturing
> Independent, multiple customer tests, proves our media out-performs Repashy fly culture media!
> 
> 
> Important scientific lesson Rick: Just because you say something doesn't mean it's true. If you make a claim like that or all the others, and refuse to back it up/publish the results of your "studies", then you can't say that. There is nothing to back you up, and compound this with your horrible reputation and general crappynes, nobody will even think about considering your results.


They want people to think they are the end all be all of the Dart frog world. They are basically running a propaganda machine over there, pulling out every sleazy tactic they think they can get away with. They also keep manufacturing fake or at least overblown conspiracies about other sellers trying to scam people with bad info, or inventing controversies that didn't really exist, and now they are calling other vendors frogs "generic". So if you don't get name brand frogs from them, well you're just not cool 

They've alienated the entire hobby community. They are probably persona non grata at any reptile show, or it will at least get awkward if they show their face in public, and now they're stepping on other vendors' toes. They continue to dig their hole deeper with every website edit or picture posted... In light of all this I've decided to fully support them in everything they do, because they have repeatedly demonstrated that they are their own worst enemy. They'll do more damage to themselves then we'll ever do.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

We need to get rid of these fools. And you know what? I'll tell you exactly why Repashy products are better. They disclose the ingredients in their products so people can offer help. But you guys are just too cool for that right? The ingredients in yours doesn't need to be told? Because it is a trade secret? This isn't the secret sauce on a big mac. Hell, coke lists their ingredients. Should they not do that because people are going to make their own or something? You guys are just money grabbers trying to dupe newbies. And the're right, there is no newbie or veteran status with them. It is either you're new and gullible enough to buy from them, or you know too much. I have been in the hobby the same amount of time as they have, and even if I did have "thousands" of frogs, I would NEVER claim to know more than people like Josh or other reputable people who've been doing this for years that actually care about the frogs and what's best for the people and the hobby. 

Look, I don't claim to be a moral saint. However, when you try to dick people around by spreading misinformation about animals, that makes me irate. The frogs can't talk back, but we can.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just visited the site. They trimmed out most of the bunk science. The pages still exist but they've removed the banner link....odd.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Just visited the site. They trimmed out most of the bunk science. The pages still exist but they've removed the banner link....odd.


The links are still there but at the bottom of the page. Ever time they take some heat, they like to play hide and go seek with the links ...


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

There is a new page: Coloration.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> There is a new page: Coloration.


No surprise that it's plagiarized:

Source - Animals | Causes of Color

US DART Frogs -


safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Amphibians’ and reptiles’ skin contains three kinds of highly branched color cells called chromatophores. The chromatophores occur in three discrete layers. The top layer is generally made of xanthophores bearing yellow pigments; the middle layer includes iridophores; and the bottom layer has melanophores with black or brown melanin. In the typical green frog, light penetrates to the iridophores, which act like tiny mirrors to reflect and scatter mostly blue light back into the xanthopores above them. The xanthopores contain yellow pigments, and act as yellow filters so the light escaping to the skin surface appears green to our eyes. If a frog lacks the yellow xanthophores, blue light scatters back and the frog appears bright blue. Iridophores do not synthesize pigments, but reflect and refract color. They contain platelets that produce a scattering effect. The real advantage to these stacks of pigment cells lies in their potential to create color changes. The animal can darken its color by moving the melanin pigment. By manipulating the three types of cells, a wide range of colors can be produced, usually extending from bright green to shades of brown and grey. Generally xanthophores contain pteridines (synthesized) and are yellow, but they can produce red pigments. Sometimes the top layer may contain erythrophores as well as xanthophores. Erythrophores contain carotenoids (absorbed through diet) which produce intermediate colors like orange, reddish-orange, and yellowish-orange. The distinction is not always made, as sometimes pteridine and carotenoids are found in the same cell.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

[quote='safedartfrogs.com website"]*Hybrid Vigor*, *heterosis*, and "*out breeding*" mean the same thing ... [/quote]

Wrong again. Another fail Ricky. One of these is not like the other.

Outbreeding is a process. Hybrid vigor and heterosis are synonyms for a possible result of a process (hybridization).

sigh ... maybe you should stick to plagiarizing the work of others. At least then you'll have a good chance of the information being factual.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They cited it


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If this is against the rules, I apologize.

Idiocy annoys me. Am I okay with some reasonable lying etc? Yes, case by case, but yes. Not when it pertains to animals, and not when it tries to dupe people into spending their money. Rick, and I know you probably read this, even though you deny it, YOU are a liar. Plain and simple. 

Ring the phone off the damn hook:

US Dart Frog, 
3144 Stage Post Drive
Bartlett, TN 38133
901-491-9145 (mobile)

This is also on their minefield of a website.

End rant/


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

When you guys call, post the results for us, please.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> They cited it


Yes, but after they were called out.


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Love how they plagiarized…really mature. Maybe your "genius" son wasn't the one with his head down in the back of the classroom but I'm guessing you were, Rick. Go back to school.


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I've been just hanging around for a few months, reading and absorbing, for a long time even before joining. I had found "the warehouse" long before I found this site and actually had them bookmarked as a source to buy from. I read part the other train wreck of a discussion and began seeing the inconsistencies pointed out that a newbie just wouldn't know unless told. Someone who knows nothing about dart frogs could easily be swayed by their advertising. I was until I researched a whole bunch more.

Anyway I just bought my first frogs from a member here after deciding to not purchase from that warehouse place. Thanks for the knowledge imparted. I feel educated and ready now. I just wanted you all to know you enlightened at least one person.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> I just wanted you all to know you enlightened at least one person.


Now that`s what I`m talking about!!!!!


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Awesome! Good work choosing a reputable source!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> I've been just hanging around for a few months, reading and absorbing, for a long time even before joining. I had found "the warehouse" long before I found this site and actually had them bookmarked as a source to buy from. I read part the other train wreck of a discussion and began seeing the inconsistencies pointed out that a newbie just wouldn't know unless told. Someone who knows nothing about dart frogs could easily be swayed by their advertising. I was until I researched a whole bunch more.
> 
> Anyway I just bought my first frogs from a member here after deciding to not purchase from that warehouse place. Thanks for the knowledge imparted. I feel educated and ready now. I just wanted you all to know you enlightened at least one person.


Made my forking day!

You're not alone btw. I've recieved dozens of PMs, Facebook messages, emails mostly expressing thanks and relief that they found our discussion about them here. 

We ARE having a tangible effect. They can post as many fake reviews as they want, but their business is failing.

And the best is yet to come.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*Frogs like companions–friends* to live with. Each frog is 7-9 months old, and they were raised in groups and socialize well. 

*We keep the varieties separate, but your pets are your own charge. Afterall, man has dominion over all animals.* If you keep them in a single group enclosure, please consider keeping the species separate. *With that said, the experts suggest and experiecne proves keeping auratus and leucomelas together is also okay. * As in all group setting, always be sure to feed regularly and with good supply to avoid conflicts. Use a feeding station or location. *The frogs will find their favorite spots and be very focused on the amount of food, not each other. Over time, after they see each other being full and satisfied from a good meal, they equate their satisfaction with one another Pavlovian style. 
*

If it is bold then it made me say WTF. And, man having dominion over animals is just sick. Under that logic, why don't I just go and disembowel someones dog because that's my "right"? Also Rick, I've yet to see any literature to say that frogs can learn these kinds of abstract associations. Do tell.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Made my forking day!
> 
> You're not alone btw. I've recieved dozens of PMs, Facebook messages, emails mostly expressing thanks and relief that they found our discussion about them here.
> 
> We ARE having a tangible effect. They can post as many fake reviews as they want, but their business is failing.
> 
> And the best is yet to come.


Would you care to share some of these messages? Sorry to ask, but I'm painfully interested.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> *Frogs like companions–friends* to live with. Each frog is 7-9 months old, and they were raised in groups and socialize well.
> 
> *We keep the varieties separate, but your pets are your own charge. Afterall, man has dominion over all animals.* If you keep them in a single group enclosure, please consider keeping the species separate. *With that said, the experts suggest and experiecne proves keeping auratus and leucomelas together is also okay. * As in all group setting, always be sure to feed regularly and with good supply to avoid conflicts. Use a feeding station or location. *The frogs will find their favorite spots and be very focused on the amount of food, not each other. Over time, after they see each other being full and satisfied from a good meal, they equate their satisfaction with one another Pavlovian style.
> *
> 
> If it is bold then it made me say WTF. And, man having dominion over animals is just sick. Under that logic, why don't I just go and disembowel someones dog because that's my "right"? Also Rick, I've yet to see any literature to say that frogs can learn these kinds of abstract associations. Do tell.


Sounds like he may be hearing voices, possibly from these imaginary "experts" he keeps talking about  Just to be safe perhaps he should read this before his next website edit...
Drugs to Treat Schizophrenia

*One person getting away with something risky for a few months isn't proof that is is a good idea,* (Like jamming a bunch of territorial tincs in an under planted viv for 2 months). That doesn't automatically render the cumulative wisdom of hundreds or even thousands of people over many years, all of a sudden null and void. Another sign of delusional thinking . Seriously with all these possible symptoms/examples of warped logic and delusional thinking, I'm starting to wonder if there isn't an underlying medical condition at work here. At the very least and at it's most harmless, a lot of what he said in that paragraph was BS (IMO), but maybe it's more serious then that?

Hopefully it isn't something as serious as schizophrenia. Maybe it is something a little more benign and common like Hypnagogia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica .

Anyways, I keep an open mind... but I say before we go "supernatural", lets rule out the more mundane medical possibilities... better safe then sorry. If entities are whispering lies, half truths and generally bad dart frog advice into his ears, I suggest he steps away from the computer and goes to see a medical professional before he inflicts any more needless suffering in the lives of the people and animals around him.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"Designer frogs save"… what is the world coming to?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> * keeping auratus and leucomelas together is also okay. *


*

For what it`s worth I tried this when I first started and yes it didn`t work.
The Leucs TOTALLY took over the tank and the Auratus just hid and nearly starved
until I separated them.
That was about 10 years ago and I still feel horrible for doing it.
For them to even suggest something like this is just animal cruelty.
I`ve come a long way in my life and try really hard not to hate people, but this guy is seriously pushing it.

EDIT- by the way the above quote is from them and not InvertaHerp*


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> For what it`s worth I tried this when I first started and yes it didn`t work.
> The Leucs TOTALLY took over the tank and the Auratus just hid and nearly starved
> until I separated them.
> That was about 10 years ago and I still feel horrible for doing it.
> For them to even suggest something like this is just animal cruelty.
> I`ve come a long way in my life and try really hard not to hate people, but this guy is seriously pushing it.
> 
> EDIT- by the way the above quote is from them and not InvertaHerp


Not to mention the fact that most auratus or endemic to Panama while most leucs are endemic to Guyana. These idiots specialize in animal cruelty. They are gung-ho that HUMANS HOLD DOMINION OVER ANIMALS!! My gosh, what an outdated and potentially dangerous way of thinking!


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What gets me are these huge jumps in reasoning they make based on anecdotal observations, little evidence and then the dubious conclusions they reach in doing so. It isn't science, it barely even qualifies as pseudoscience.

Stress is often cumulative. It may not kill an animal outright in a few days, weeks or months, but it can shorten their life span, it can make them more prone to other health problems. Sure your frogs won't instantly disintegrate, but are they going to live to their maximum life span? ...even half of it? 

*People that haven't been in the hobby for more then 2-3 years, haven't put in the time to make those determinations.* If someone experienced wants to very carefully try out a mix, I'm not going to lynch them and I realize beginners are going to underestimate the difficulties and do it sometimes, especially if they haven't researched enough, or gotten good advice. I just can't believe there are people out there willing to go against decades of experience from a crap ton of people and actually advocate it (even for new people it seems)! That is just crazy irresponsible in my opinion. 

Even if by some miracle people get away with doing what the do, and they aren't actually setting them up for failure, they will still be at odds with the community from the start. How do they justify putting them in that position to themselves? ...Greed/money would be my first guess, ignorance/delusional thinking my 2nd, but at this point I think Rick's ego and not being able to admit he is wrong is up there with both those. He's taken it to far... he can't turn back now.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Would you care to share some of these messages? Sorry to ask, but I'm painfully interested.


I have to assume since people contacted me privately, that they intended for our conversations were intended that way. I'll think about posting some with names redacted if the parties involved are ok with it.

They, USArtFrog have obviously rolled out another sad logo, both from a design standpoint(fire your graphic artist) and especially from a hobby standpoint as it is a Designer Frogs logo.

Also, FWIW, I think I've found a means by which we may be able to protest some of their trademarks. Still looking into it as to feasibility but it looks like we could protest on multiple grounds. I'll keep people updated. Multiple third parties can file protests and the more the better. At the very least it would create a huge hassle and money pit for them to have to defend.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> They, USArtFrog have obviously rolled out another sad logo, both from a design standpoint(fire your graphic artist) and especially from a hobby standpoint as it is a Designer Frogs logo.


I found the rainbow lettering, and the 2 nearly identical Frogs embracing a surprise... I didn't know Rick was so open minded 


Oh and since they are so big on "science", I think this quote next to a picture on their family website (which has a context we're not supposed to discuss in this thread) is kinda interesting...

"The photo is titled: "X Structure at Core of Whirlpool Galaxy (M51)". NASA has many theories as to what it is, but they offered those only recently. *Sometimes scientists are to weak to rest on something they cannot explain, so they make stuff up*"

I think I get it now, perhaps they actually believe that "making stuff up" is good science... It would explain a lot.

*WOW*.


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Apparently on March 13 of this year there were two more trademarks applied for through the patent process as well.

One for "A1" The description provided to the USPTO for A1 is Animal embryos; Eggs for hatching; Fertilised eggs for hatching; Live animals, namely, captive bred amphibians, crickets, flies and fly larva, beetles and beetle larva, microlife including springtails and isopods; Live hatching eggs.

A second one for "NATURIST" which apparently has to do with their food and nutrition... Bee pollen?? 

The US DART FROG patent is now "abandoned" but he has four other active ones. Apparently you can make comments on this site...

Free Trademark Search | Protect Business Name | Incorporate Your Business | Trademarkia


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So a bit more looking and I found the four live ones he has pending at this time on the USPTO website. Apparently opposition can only be applied for by a "potentially injured party."

SAFE

COLOR

NATURIST

A1

If you click on the Documents tab you can see the documents sent back and forth between USPTO and the patentee.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> So a bit more looking and I found the four live ones he has pending at this time on the USPTO website. Apparently opposition can only be applied for by a "potentially injured party."
> 
> SAFE
> 
> COLOR
> 
> NATURIST
> 
> A1
> 
> If you click on the Documents tab you can see the documents sent back and forth between USPTO and the patentee.


Well being a lawyer he's probably saving money by doing it all himself, but there are still various fees involved. I wonder if abandoning "us dart frog" is a sign of money trouble. Or maybe they are planning on a domain change with all the bad press their current ones have gotten. It will probably end up being like a game of wacka mole. Once their bad rep taints one domain name they'll probably move to another, and so on and on.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

he also owns a tiny publishing company so that he can publish his crazy books.


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Charlie Q said:


> he also owns a tiny publishing company so that he can publish his crazy books.


I was a little confused as to how someone that rambles as nonsensically as Ricky could be a published author. Now I'm not.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> I was a little confused as to how someone that rambles as nonsensically as Ricky could be a published author. Now I'm not.


yeah, i thought, "what publishing company would publish this stuff, and who are they affiliated with?"

so i looked up the company, and it said it was owned by R. Wascher. shocker.


----------



## Chris Miller

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> A second one for "NATURIST" which apparently has to do with their food and nutrition... Bee pollen??


Naturist - Hey Rick, um, Let me google that for you...


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Chris Miller said:


> Naturist - Hey Rick, um, Let me google that for you...



hahaha wish I could "like" this post more than once.... Got a good laugh out of that one.


----------



## boabab95

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*WOW.*


Just...wow.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Between T-bags and Naturists I don't even know what to say.


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sexing Frogs

Myth: Frogs must be at least a year old to reliably determine their sex, and even then the only sure way to know if a frog is male or female is the presence of calling or laying of eggs.

*While the above statement is often true of frogs that are of inferior quality,* or have been raised under less than ideal conditions, a healthy frog with high quality genetics like we sell always displays its gender specific traits well before a year old.
In fact, the traits that our frogs display make it easy for almost anyone to be able to tell whether a frog is male or female, even as young as 6-7 months of age for Tincs, and even then the body shape differences for frogs younger than 6-7 months are indicative of their male or female gender. In addition, given that we have experience in raising literally thousands of frogs to this 7 month age, we can readily spot these traits at around 4-5 months of age for many of our frogs, especially tinctorius.​
Text bolded by me....


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> Sexing Frogs
> 
> Myth: Frogs must be at least a year old to reliably determine their sex, and even then the only sure way to know if a frog is male or female is the presence of calling or laying of eggs.
> 
> *While the above statement is often true of frogs that are of inferior quality,* or have been raised under less than ideal conditions, a healthy frog with high quality genetics like we sell always displays its gender specific traits well before a year old.
> In fact, the traits that our frogs display make it easy for almost anyone to be able to tell whether a frog is male or female, even as young as 6-7 months of age for Tincs, and even then the body shape differences for frogs younger than 6-7 months are indicative of their male or female gender. In addition, given that we have experience in raising literally thousands of frogs to this 7 month age, we can readily spot these traits at around 4-5 months of age for many of our frogs, especially tinctorius.​
> Text bolded by me....


Typical propaganda from Ricky and what appears to be another lame attempt to discredit the majority of experienced hobbyists. Not much on their website can be viewed as credible or in line with established knowledge and husbandry practices.

In their 2.5 years of experience, they've decided that nearly all conventional wisdom, brought about by over 4 decades of keeping and study by hobbyists and scientists alike, is invalid according to their "research". 

They are neither "scientists" nor experienced hobbyists. IMO, their rhetoric is all about a marketing strategy (a bad one) and has nothing to do with knowledge gained through experience or "scientific" research.

It's been quite apparent since their initial roll-out that the intention has been to market mixed morph and designer frogs to the novice and naive through unscrupulous methods such as discrediting established and experienced keepers, making outrageous claims not supported by science or current knowledge, misrepresenting current husbandry knowledge and science, severely undercut prices, and catchy little trademark names.

The best we can do is to educate the novice and naive with factual information ...


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The good news is that they no longer ship frogs. According to their website, a $7.50 fee covers the special box used to ship the forgs. Don't know what a forg is, but at least it isn't a frog!

Note: I've observed this on their site for over a week. Of course, now that it is pointed out they will of course change it. I know how you play your game Ricky. But please, continue to look the fool.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

kay cool, but if the same colored frogs are taken OUT of the jungle, bred and raised in captivity, not diseased, and they don’t eat the poison bugs, do they lose their poison and become harmless?

YES, ABSOLUTELY YES!!!! In fact, if they never ate the poison they never were poisonous. Hence, captive bred dart frogs in the truest sense can never be poison frogs. Each and every one of our beautiful frogs and tadpoles is the offspring of completely harmless frog parents that were also bred in captivity. Our frogs are bred in the United States by us, and always remain under our care until they find a new home. In addition, we do not, and never will, handle, take possession of, sell, or even allow in our facility, any wild caught jungle frogs, or "poison frogs" of any kind. Sure, you may call our frogs "poison dart frogs" or anything you wish, and we encourage freedom to call them whatever you desire, but please know, every frog and tadpole we sell is completely and totally harmless, perfectly healthy, 100% non-toxic, NOT poisonous, absolutely beautiful, and fun! Our SAFE brand is our guarantee, and we think this makes a difference to mom, dad, grandma and grandpa too!


Surprised these experts haven't realized that there are accounts of some darts that were in CAPTIVITY and fed FFFs producing a poison/substance as a defense when stressed. In fact, I'm surprised that our favorite lawyer doesn't realize that if a frog he sells produces a defense secretion, he could get sued for a hell of a lot of money. And here is another thing: They claim their secretion of poison in the wild is like a humans runny nose. Wrong. It is a defense mechanism they excrete when under extreme duress. Literature supports this. But of course, you guys must have some brilliant study (that you won't release) that disproves this, no?

You know what? Maybe that is how we bury them. I know it is extreme, but if we get a frog of theirs to secrete poison (fed with no MP so they don't have a "defense") we can sue them for damages, post a bad guy thread on BOI, and hopefully see them gone. While your at it, do a fecal. If the frog has any bugs, double win. That undermines their health guarantee, so more BOI fodder.


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You know all you breeders and sellers, these trademark patents he has applied for can be appealed, opposed or cancelled (if already granted). An "injured party" can file protests. Wouldn't it seem that all of you are injured parties? I mean if you look at it in a legal sense the trademarks he's trying to patent could damage the hobby industry that you all have fought to protect for years. Filing fees would need paid and if none of you are attorneys there is a program available for student attorneys to assist those who are qualified. Papers need served, deadlines need met, et cetera. A three judge panel makes the decision, it's quite the process.


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> The good news is that they no longer ship frogs. According to their website, a $7.50 fee covers the special box used to ship the forgs. Don't know what a forg is, but at least it isn't a frog!


Maybe a forg is an organic frog?


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Aaaannnnd here we go ...

At least 5 mixed morph/designer frogs listed on their home page as "Available Soon".

Notice that the pictures are of adults, whichconfirms the suspicions that they have been planning this for quite some time.


----------



## oldlady25715

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Welcome to the ball-pythonization and leopard-geckoization of the hobby. I wish we could vote these guys out.

Good job keeping this relevant edwardsatc. We need to keep an eye out for these guys. 

They are like the al-Qaeda of Dart Frog breeders--genetic terrorists.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



oldlady25715 said:


> Welcome to the ball-pythonization and leopard-geckoization of the hobby. I wish we could vote these guys out.
> 
> Good job keeping this relevant edwardsatc. We need to keep an eye out for these guys.
> 
> They are like the al-Qaeda of Dart Frog breeders--genetic terrorists.


Won't happen. Our hobby is too small and niche. These idiots may sell a few forgs (see wut I did there?) but they won't ever change this hobby in any significant way. There is no demand for the garbage they're peddling.

The most sinister thing I've seen from them recently is them trying to justify hybrids/mixed locale frogs as some kind of conservation. Anyone with half a brain can see right thru this of course. And of course, anyone who has been around long enough knows that uncertainty about lineage seems to be a driving factor in further imports, so by them muddying the waters with their bastard frogs, they'll actually compound the problem they claim they're trying to solve.

We just have to be diligent. Educate new hobbyists and help clean up the messes that USArtFrog creates. They may create a few headaches, some people will get burned, and the hobby will suffer a little bit, but in the end we will all be stronger for having delt with them.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Aaaannnnd here we go ...
> 
> At least 5 mixed morph/designer frogs listed on their home page as "Available Soon".
> 
> Notice that the pictures are of adults, whichconfirms the suspicions that they have been planning this for quite some time.


Ya and notice that the auratus will be really hard to tell apart from other auratus, one looks like an oyapock, and the other looks kinda like a blue sip, so anyone who is naive or just doesn't care, could easily mix them, sell them to unsuspecting people that will mix them with other frogs, and in the end we'll be clueless if the "oyapock" we wanted to buy is really an oyapock, or just a hybrid that looks a lot like one. Who knows what the offspring will come out looking like. Sure this happened occasionally anyways, but not on a commercial scale from a company supposedly producing 1000's of frogs and selling them at dirt cheap prices to undercut the competition.... Thanks Rick and Dillion! 

At this point I'm pretty sure this has become as much about Rick's and maybe Dillon's ego, as it is about enjoying the frogs or selling them. It's about sticking it to the hobby and, doing what he wants at our expense and just to piss us off. Though I still think these people will say/do just about anything to make a buck. They really are becoming our hobby's equivalent of terrorists (IMO) (Good call OldLady!). 

Another nugget of "wisdom" (cough!)...

*" A lot of frog sellers ship tiny, fragile frogs, presumably because they would rather make money than care for frogs and that says a lot to us. We care first, then sell! If they tell you to put them in a Sterilite bin or other small enclosure, consider not buying because they are so small and young. Each and every frog we sell can hop, move about easily and hunt. They are ready for a vivarium. "*

So first we have them kinda trashing "a lot" of froggers, being kinda alarmest and/or possibly exaggerating, acting like there is an epidemic of unscrupulous people shipping out tiny froglets. Yes it happens, but the hobby community tends to pounce on these people once we find out... it is not an accepted practice.

Then there is that silly old idea of *quarantining frogs* so you don't have tear down your new viv when you find out you put sick frogs in it. *That's out *people... and that's just awesome.

Of course their frogs are guaranteed "Safe", so* I guess Rick will be more then happy to cover the cost of replacing frogs* if they have hookworms, cytrid, rana, etc..etc... *(You are testing for all that stuff right Rick? ...and where are those results?)* *AND constructing an all new vivarium*, since it isn't a good idea to put new frogs in a potentially infected viv. And *I assume if I get salmonella from my designer dart frog, Rick will pay all my medical expenses* 

We have Rick's word, or "*The word of Rick*"... but that changes every day it seems


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USDartFrog website said:


> Any use of the non-scientific term hybrid would apply to "hybrid vigor." Hybrid Vigor, heterosis, and "out breeding" mean the same thing, and is a natural phenomenon whereby the offspring of same species mixed variety animal offspring are more hardy and in many, many, ways considered genetically superior and "better" than either parents.


I've commented on the above quote before. In addition to my previous comments, it should be pointed out that heterosis is often only seen in the F1 generation. In cases where heterosis (hybrid vigor) exists in the F1 generation, it is often lost and outbreeding depression is seen in subsequent generations. 

A bit of a hint for Ricky ... When reading the literature, one should read past the topic sentence (that's the first sentence Ricky) of each paragraph.

So, bottom line is that once Ricky and the boys dump their mutts on unwitting customers, those customers will be stuck with animals whose progeny are likely to suffer outbreeding depression and unlikely to breed true in successive generations. 

Not a very good long term business plan ... which makes me smile


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*Let's Debunk Some More USDartFrog Junk*:



USDartFrog website said:


> but the hard question remains, can they reproduce, or are the offspring of same species-dissimilar varietal parents hybrids in the scientific context? If they cannot reproduce a true hybrid exists. If they can reproduce, numerous combinations may, and probably do, already exist in the wild.





USDartFrog website said:


> The offspring of same species, mixed variety tinctorius parents are most certainly NOT hybrid. They can and do reproduce.





USDartFrog website said:


> Their mixed offspring reproduce easily and naturally to create a next generation offspring.


1) Apparently someone can't get a hold of literature that's been written in the past 3 decades. The idea that the inability to reproduce is a defining characteristic of a hybrid is as old as disco.

2) Science does, in fact, recognize intraspecific breeding amongst different populations as hybridization.



USDartFrog website said:


> We believe conservation is the correct approach and coexist with scientific discovery of new varieties provided the discovery is done respsonsibly. On this foundation, why would anyone desire to harvest the "new" or "rare" versions of poison dart frogs as pets from the wild as the wild frogs approach protected or endangered species status, and doing so disrupts or damages the pristine jungle even by the foot traffic that might squash the frogs they seek that are hiding underneath the leaves they walk on.


1) The dilution of specific locales/populations in the hobby by designer and mixed morph frogs is highly likely to drive the demand for wild caught frogs with specific locality data.

2) Foot traffic that might squash frogs? I've heard a lot of hypotheses for contributing factors of amphibian decline, but this is pushing the limits of plausibility.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*Let's Debunk Some More USDartFrog Junk:*

Seems Rick may also be a bit mathematically challenged:



USDartFrog website said:


> Question:
> ...Any way you could raise the price on the trios 3-5 months from 98 to 100 to qualify for free shipping?
> Not suprisingly, the pricing was setup that way intentionally, and to make sure the group discount customer had a good deal on a multiple grouping purchases. For example, 2 groups gets free shipping. That is roughly $199 which makes it 199-49 shipping=$150 for 6 frogs. That's $75 for 3 and the real deal.


So let me get this straight. Not only will you give me free shipping, but then you will also subtract the price of shipping from my bill? Hmmm ......

Of course, I had to check this out for myself.  

Buying two groups of Super Blue Auratus from the "Wholesale Multiple Groups of Three (3) Frogs 3-5 mos. old" of course did NOT result in the subtraction of the $49. Final price $199 per or $97.70 per trio. Shocking that such an upstanding and respected breeder of frogs could make such an error...I know 

I could spend days debunking Rick's junk. Fortunately for him, I'll be returning to work soon ...


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Has anyone noticed if they claim any exemption from shipping to hawaii?

NVM, just checked, and hawaii is not in the list of states for the shipping address.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wait, Donn, did you actually buy frogs?


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Wait, Donn, did you actually buy frogs?


Lol ... hell no ... I'd sooner buy from some shady frog flipper in the back alley at a herp show


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay, just making sure. However, I do kinda want to see one of us get some frogs to test them etc.


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I will donate 10 bucks for testing etc. Would do more but don't want their crap in my house. If any froggers have a willing neighbor without darts and familiar with ASN protocols we can put them to the test.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Good idea beth.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

KOIFROG Designer Frogs

And so it begins.

Dark day for the hobby and amphibian conservation.

It's time to really ratchet things up a notch. I hope this will really be a wake up call to all the naysayers and closet supporters of these jerks.


----------



## Dale D

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"Free FedEx Priority Overnight Shipping"
"A small $7.50 fee applies to cover the cost of the new cooler box we use to send the 'forgs' " 
How is that free?


----------



## boombotty

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

And to top things off, they are mixing Autatus', which are so variable anyway in the same morph. At least in Tincs, you might be able to tell they are mixes. Definitely a bad day when these start getting out.


----------



## Brian317

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sad day indeed. I don't see how they sleep at night. Now we really have to keep track of lines and where your frogs exactly came from. I hope this business fails soon...

So many beautiful and colorful NATURAL frogs in the hobby now!! I just don't understand some people...


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

From the USDart(SAFE)FrogsDesigner(SAVE)Frogs site:


> Ecologically sustainable captive bred, totally harmless, frogs with superior combinative genetics from same species, dissimilar parents, to replace the need for rare, imported, wild caught, poison dart frogs. Captive bred frogs live longer and are far more healthy than wild caught frogs.


How are they ecologically sustainable when they;
a) Do not exist in nature
b) Utilize non-hybrid founding stock that DID come from wild-type, imported lines at one point
c) Have no long-term data regarding lifespan or future genetic issues?

How will these mutts "replace the need for rare, imported, wild caught, poison dart frogs" when they only serve to muddy existing lines? Wouldn't that increase pressure for wild collection from individuals that want legitimate, naturally occurring frogs with a solid genetic makeup?

What possible evidence could someone that has kept frogs for less than 3 (or 5, or 10) years, provide to indicate the comparative lifespans of CB vs WC in a captive scenario?


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> These are our aqua variation of the green and black Auratus. They are amazing and have a fantastic aqua color variation from the green and black. The skin coloration is iridescent. The skin tones do show a secondary hue which is an indicator of health.


uhhhhhh...........what?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

And just like that they're gone


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I found this page hilarious about adrenalin causing a frog to change colors then showing pictures of 2 different frogs.
Frog Color

Very "scientific."


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

European Expertise

This should be fun. Watcha got Rick?


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> And just like that they're gone


I assume you mean the "designer koi" I did not get a chance to see it/them before it disappeared .. Can you describe it? I would like to know what to look out for... and stay far, far, away from.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> European Expertise
> 
> This should be fun. Watcha got Rick?


Probably a lot of "utter nonsense" and "balderdash"


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*Debunking more USDartFrog Junk*



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> US Dart Frog is actively engaged in studying captive bred, no poison dart frogs. *Witjh over 600 frogs we jhave red and raised in house*, we believe we know thing or two about breeding frogs and what "Polymorphism" truly means


*1)*
thousands of frogs?
2,000 frogs?
3,000 frogs?

... or is it 600?

Sometimes the truth slips out, doesn't it? Get your story straight Ricky. 

*2)* You don't have a clue what polymorphism means. The babble and bullshit you post on your website demonstrates this lack of knowledge over and over and over again

*3)* Despite your claims of being a scientist, nuclear engineer, and lawyer you still don't understand how spellcheck works ... brilliant!


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



srrrio said:


> I assume you mean the "designer koi" I did not get a chance to see it/them before it disappeared .. Can you describe it? I would like to know what to look out for... and stay far, far, away from.


Even better than a description is a link to the new site. Oh boy...

Designer Frogs

Gallery

Google is my best friend.  Seems they have several websites.


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Can they get worse?????
"Each designer offspring is more hardy, more bold, more energetic, demonstrates superior athletic ability, and is more secure than any common dart frog. Even at a young age, they can live harmoniously with larger frogs. These are not hybrids–they breed and reproduce normally. As this hobby site grows, the various designers are encouraged to submit pics of their breeding success.
What initially began as phenotype experiments to prove the frogs would NEVER be harmed and were not hybrid, matured into a fun new polymorphic dart frog breeding hobby. Each and every colorful, designer, pet frog is captive bred, raised by the designer in the U.S.A., and found nowhere else in the wild. Designer Frogs are truly works of art."


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

About the time you think it can't get worse they manage to top it.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They're starting their own private forum for hybridiots to get together: 



designerfrogs.com website said:


> As this site and the U.S. Dart Frog Hobby grows, please feel free to submit your pictures for posting in an expanded gallery along with your own breeder profile, web address, store info, whatever you wish. Pictures and explanation of your frogs, pictures of the parents, offspring, etc., are preferred in the private breeder section. This section is set aside for all breeders who post their designer or signature line breeder profiles, and tips. Also, we have trained legal staff so please let us know if you want a legal section added. This can be helpful for navigating trademark filings and legislative updates.
> 
> Of course, education is always a goal and the responsibility of the Hobby is to educate the public on the desirability of these frogs as long term, low cost pets, and the one of a kind uniqueness of every frog creation. The private section(s) known as the blog will be the place where members/breeders share frog breeding tips, proven frogs for new designs, care and money saving tips and tricks, jokes, and just a ton of fun, etc.
> 
> A community store is under consideration for Designers who wish to sell designer or signature line frogs they have raised under the tightest and strictest quality control, and health guarantees.


Looks like we'll have to infiltrate the network


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Haha... "Trained legal staff"


----------



## Dendroguy

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What would happe in they started to breed 'designer' O. histrionica/sylvatica? What would happen?

I highly doubt it would happen, but I think they'd be met with a much harsher response.

D


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> They're starting their own private forum for hybridiots to get together:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we'll have to infiltrate the network


I'm down. Don't forget the ski masks.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendroguy said:


> What would happe in they started to breed 'designer' O. histrionica/sylvatica? What would happen?
> 
> I highly doubt it would happen, but I think they'd be met with a much harsher response.
> 
> D


Don't give these hybridiots any ideas, lol. 


We're coming for you Ricky...


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Pellet Fed and Captive Bred ??? WTF?


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay everyone, most of you don't know me as I'm new here. In the work that I do research is probably one of the most important aspects, be it a place, event, person or what have you, being able to find the information I need is a vital part of my job.

Last night when I was looking to find a remnant of the designer/koi frogs that was up earlier in the day for those that missed it I stumbled on what appears to be several sites that are apparently their prototype sites, their playgrounds if you will. So what I'll do is a series of posts, since we know things disappear fast once discovered I'll supply the links but I'll also copy/paste the pertinent info. What you think is bad is most definitely getting worse. 

Most of the things are based on this site, which appears to be where they design and store their prototype websites -- for now anyway.
USA Frog FrogMatch ProgramsDart Frogs FrogMatch Programs

And away we go.....


----------



## terrim

*Peer Quality Sales...*

USA Frog Peer Quality

Peer Quality Sales
We know many top shelf, ethical, and experienced dart frog breeders out there in the hobby. These individuals are the pillars of the hobby and we want to be sure we recognize their contributions to all of us froggers. You will be invited, or just ask us and tell us who you are, etc., to sell your froglets on a drop ship basis on FrogZooMall.com. The cost is nominal and actual to cover the charges we might incur for your transactions. The more transactions, the cheaper it is for the entire group, including shipping. We will build USAFrog and FrogZooMall.com on integrity, and grow on quality!


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> Most of the things are based on this site, which appears to be where they design and store their prototype websites -- for now anyway.
> USA Frog FrogMatch ProgramsDart Frogs FrogMatch Programs


This one has been up for quite some time now and many other domains and aliases can be found in this thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse.html


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fr...5-2012-frogs-tads-flies-beetles-supplies.html


This link is interesting, very interesting. It appears they were good once, when the boys ran the show. Especially read the last post. It appears that Rick screwed this up. Maybe it is imperative we reach out to Dillon, genius or not. Rick is the corruption, or so it seems.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

WholeSale Pricing

Operation pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Here are some for your list terrim -

*Domains used in the past or currently owned:*
frogdude.com
designerfrogs.com
shipyourfrogs.com
frogdayus.com 
usafrogzoo.com 
shopdartfrog.com 
shopdartfrogs.com 
petdartfrog.com 
frogzoo.org 
dartfrog.co
buydartfrogs.com
dartfrogwarehouse.com
safedartfrogs.com
wascher.com/usafrogfrogzoo.html

*Business names used:*
Frogdudes
Koifrog
Designer Frogs
US Dart Frog
USA Frog
USA Frog Zoo
Frog Zoo
Frog Warehouse
Art Frog Warehouse
Dart Frog Warehouse 
Buy Dart Frogs
Safe Dart Frogs


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks Donn, they sure have a lot of registered domains. They seem to let many of them just expire, much like the many patents and trademark patents. Many of them are just abandoned. The offshoot of the site I found last night is apparently part of the whole Koifrog concept of Designer Frogs.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This is just entertaining....



> Wholesale Pricing
> Background: Suggested Retail Price Guidelines
> 
> We certainly have more frogs than any seller anywhere, including the internet. Several internet sellers openly advertise their retail pricing, but stock quantities are always limited. Also, any online purchase of a single frog requires a $40-$60 overnight shipping charge. Here are the links to some online retailers' prices:
> 
> Tadpoles - DartFrogConnection
> 
> Juveniles - DartFrogConnection
> 
> Juveniles - Josh's Frogs
> 
> We are the only seller of a full line, age and variety, of captive bred dart frogs. We are a wholesale business and have the inventory, others do not. There may be some adult frogs scattered about the best hobby classified board Dendroboard Classifieds, but only a sporadic few and the sellers are individual only hobbyists.


"including the internet"

I didn't know "the internet" was an entity actively engaged in selling dart frogs...


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> WholeSale Pricing
> 
> Operation pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Why is there links to DFC and Josh's on that page?

edit, nevermind. Ricks just trying to show his prices are better I guess. That's funny he compares their inventory to the entire collection on DB. I don't think he's got much of a shot on beating a whole community on that.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The Europe tab is gone, as well as the designer website.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> The Europe tab is gone, as well as the designer website.


Yep, completely gone. But recorded and way backed for posterity. Rick , you really do need to figure out how to use the internet sir. Once you throw your garbage up, you can't take it back.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks for the laughs Rick

GENESIS Designer Frogs

GENESIS Dart Frogs? Really? anyone see what they're trying to do here? With respect Tom, I think a bit of leeway in respect to previous moratoriums may be in order if this is the route they're going to take.

It's the same not so impressive mutt Auratus with the same free download font as their previous Koifrog garbage.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I think the picture of those frogs hugging is actually a cry for help.

Hang in there guy`s, we`re working on it.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Seriously, does he have to trademark every damn item there?
It`s beyond annoying.

Also for a reason I can`t explain I was looking at their family photos.
Anyone else notice that Rick`s pictures are always separate from his family.
Don`t flatter yourself Rick you`re not that important.
Trademark that!!


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I think the picture of those frogs hugging is actually a cry for help.
> 
> Hang in there guy`s, we`re working on it.


I see "US Dart Frog" 4 times in that photo, can you spot them all???


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> I see "US Dart Frog" 4 times in that photo, can you spot them all???


Yep, and that photo belongs in a bad art museum. Last thing I'd want to plaster a company logo all over.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I find that drawing to be something like Andy Warhol/Salvador Dali.

Of coarse the difference being they had taste and talent.


----------



## jeosbo01

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have no real interest in joining this conversation...as truly voicing my opinion would likely end with me getting banned. Suffice to say I won't be buying any of their frogs, and will never sell to them again.

I do find it interesting that the frog 'hugging' image that they plastered their name all over is not a new image. It can be found in numerous places online, often associated with a Japanese folk tale. I would have thought that they would realize that just putting your name on something doesn't make it yours. Here is one example that was posted in June of 2012:









This screen shot was taken today from http://japantopia.net/culture/japanese-folk-tale-the-two-frogs/


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

ATTENTION

We've moved this back to "General" per request.

Stick to the topic. The topic is *NOT *religion.

Memes will get you an infraction.

Going off topic will get you an infraction.

This was moved - by request - to an area with more traffic. 

It is up to you folks to make sure it *STAYS HERE*.

s


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Glad to see this moved back where it will get more traffic. Our best weapon against these frauds is awareness and having this discussion in the general forum will help insure that more new hobbyists that happen on our forum will see it.

Unfortunately this guys have gone from conjecture and speculation about if they would actually release hybrids and mixed morph frogs, but they have done just that. It's important now more than ever the we are diligent in following what they're doing and exposing their lies and deceit.


----------



## jeosbo01

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I was bored so did a little more digging. Someone evidently stole their logo then went back in time to 2011 and used it on a website about starting internet businesses!









pulled today from Start Internet Business - How I Start Internet Business Step by Step?


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



jeosbo01 said:


> I was bored so did a little more digging. Someone evidently stole their logo then went back in time to 2011 and used it on a website about starting internet businesses!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pulled today from Start Internet Business - How I Start Internet Business Step by Step?


Apparently "Vic" is an expert on e-commerce AND dart frogs! Nice find.


----------



## jeosbo01

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks Dane...I try


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Quite amusing when I called old Ricky boy and asked him for 8-10 of the same morph he said he couldn't produce that many of one frog at one time. Yet he has thousands. Obviously I was never gonna buy from him it was all a joke. They barely have any knowledge of proper husbandry. They are clueless which we have all established. Remember they have thousands of frogs but couldn't produce 10 auratus. The most common frog in our hobby. They are full of b.s. I hope they go out of business asap!!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They had this nonsense at the top of every single page for a while last night:



> We sell the absolute best quality frogs available anywhere. Our frogs are raised by us from thoroughbred quality breeding stock, and sold at better prices than the competition. These are facts, not marketing puffery. Please remember this site, shop everywhere else, everywhere, and compare. Remember the old movie, "A Miracle on 34th Street", well, we want you to check out the competition too, because our frogs are the best and we guarantee it. Sure, this is bold, but truth is always bold. Every frog we sell is strong, big, a gorgeous pet, and ready for hunting their food in their new home. Many of our customers haved called us and said: "I just got them and put them in their vivarium. They are great, but why are they so active? Why do they explore their new vivarium and why do they hop around so much and climb everything?" We resist answering "because they are not the cruddy frogs you bought from someone else" and say" "They are very healthy frogs, strong, vibrant, and athletic, just as we advertised and guaranteed." ALL of our frogs are, of course, totally harmless, 100% quality guaranteed, and part of our SAFE® brand. That is our federally registered tademark we own. That SAFE® trademark was granted to us by the U.S. Department of Commerce for captive bred amphibians. On care, our frogs are pets. We are a top breeder. Our frog pets are a great blessing indeed. If others say there are toxins secreted in frogs, for ANY reason, any reason at all, even if they are speaking in mere possibilitiy, avoid those frogs like a plague. Ours are pure and totally harmless, and our research AND develop of our own frogs (including some stunning, never before seen, offspring). We spent many hours, and many, many dollars to prove the science and GUARANTEE our frogs are harmless, but please do not eat them.  Also, our Designer Frogs are the first of their kind, PERFECT, seriously, perfect. They are exact visual duplicates of someof the leading frog pioneers from Europe. In fact, the Europen hobby is way ahead whejn it comes to discovery knowledge, and as part of our global commitment ot humanity, we should embrace their findinsga re brothers ansdsistersd, not shum them like close-minded stereotyped "Americans." Why? We raise our frogs with love, but they are not people–they are pets. Our European friends are people! So, PLEASE comparison shop, and plerase remember this site first and last. (No we do not have much stuff to sell you yet, but theb stuff we eventually sell is what we use and will endorse. Guaranteed! Again!


Where to begin?

Every frog I've ever gotten explores their new Viv this way. Rick, your frogs are nothing special.

You are NOT a top breeder. You're an overly ambitious but short sighted businessman with 2 yrs of hobby experience. Top Breeders wouldn't even be so arrogant to call themselves that. They don't need to. Their reputation speaks for itself. What does your reputation say about you? Falsely claiming your badassery only proves the opposite.

I defy you to post one shred of evidence, any data, any science or research that you have done. We both know that you haven't done the slightest bit of research or science, and that your claims are nothing more than hot air intended to give ignorant new hobbyists the impression that you're legit.

You have no friends in Europe. I assure you they most certainly see you as a fraud, a joke, and a laughingstock just as we do.

Your designer frogs are not perfect, they're just ugly mutts.

Am am happy that you encourage people to comparison shop, and this is probably why you took this down. Because when you realize new customer would compare all the nonsensical legal garbage, overly defensive explanations, and false bravado on your site, with solid, concrete, and responsible information available EVERYWHERE else, you realized they'd never be back.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow if I had a web site where I continuously fabricated info, doing things that no one has done before and creating animals of perfection out of inanimate material....I would have spell check.


ps and I will shum whoever I want to shum (whatever that means)


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ok, I`m not the sharpest knife in the drawer here, can someone please explain to me how
he can legally slap his stupid trademark on anything he wants even if it belongs to some one else.
How can people with their "beliefs'' be so friggin dishonest.
It totally slays me every time I read something else about them.
I lost count months ago on how many times I told myself he can`t stoop any lower.

This guy could walk under a door without taking his hat off.


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just can't believe it has begun...although I'm not as worried as I used to be, their nonsense will keep most buyers away. 


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> Thus, if others say there are toxins secreted in their (or some other) frogs, for ANY reason, any reason at all, even if they are speaking in mere possibilitiy, avoid those frogs like a plague. Ours are pure and totally harmless, and they secrete nothing as a toxin. Our research AND development of our own frogs (including some stunning, never before seen, offspring by which we mean "development"), cost us many hours, and many, many, dollars to REprove the science. (Still, about our frogs, our lawyer says to tell you: do not eat them.


I love how Methylparaben is the most toxic substance on earth, but to even suggest that one of their frogs could sequester any alkaloids on any level on a captive raised diet is preposterous. Way to REprove the science. 



> Also, our "Designer Frogs" (we did not know what to call them until somone gave us a good idea) are just now starting to be introduced. They are the first of their kind, AMAZING, and some would say perfect. A few are exact visual duplicates of some of the discoveries by leading frog pioneers from Europe. Dominant/Dominant offspring from mom and dad frog. (The biggest contribution is, not suprisingly, usually from the female.) In fact, the Europen hobby is way ahead of the quibbling U.S. hobby when it comes to frog discovery knowledge. So we sought the truth and can say: As part of our global commitment to humanity, we should embrace their findings as our brothers and sisters, not shun them like close-minded stereotyped "Americans." Why? We, U.S. Dart Frog–the biggest breeder in the U.S., raise our frogs with love, but they are not people–they are pets.


There is so much wrong with this I'm not even sure where to start. First off, "Designer Frogs"? I wonder where they got that term? Tell me if I am following the logic here...

1. There are locality specific frogs in Europe that don't exist here.
2. USfartdogs has bred mutts that they feel are visually identical to those Frogs.
3. European froggers are more enlightened than American froggers.
4. Therefore we should purchase these frogs because USfartdogs think they look like European frogs.

That's all that's said here, but the IMPLICATION is that the European market has embraced Designer frogs (and by extension embraced USfartdogs) and that they are light years beyond "stereotyped" Americans in...uh...open-minded frog husbandry, I guess. 

Also, are they the biggest breeder in the U.S? I would seriously doubt that. 

As usual Rick has typed a lot, implied a lot, and said very very little.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I honestly think you guys are giving Rick too much credit... the longer and longer this drags on, the more and more I think it is Dillon that is typing a lot of this random stuff. It reeks of ramblings of a naive kid that thinks he can just try to over explain things and people will eventually believe him.

I used to be like that too. It's the "if I talk more, then I am right" attitude. Luckily, I grew up and had a couple good teachers that smacked some sense into me and taught me how to think critically and present good arguments. Unfortunately, we all know what happened to the potential for that to happen here...

I'm not saying Rick doesn't play a part in it... but I think it's probably Dillon making this stuff up and then working with his dad to "legitimize" it.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> I honestly think you guys are giving Rick too much credit... the longer and longer this drags on, the more and more I think it is Dillon that is typing a lot of this random stuff. It reeks of ramblings of a naive kid that thinks he can just try to over explain things and people will eventually believe him.
> 
> I used to be like that too. It's the "if I talk more, then I am right" attitude. Luckily, I grew up and had a couple good teachers that smacked some sense into me and taught me how to think critically and present good arguments. Unfortunately, we all know what happened to the potential for that to happen here...
> 
> I'm not saying Rick doesn't play a part in it... but I think it's probably Dillon making this stuff up and then working with his dad to "legitimize" it.


I don't know, for some reason I think a lot of this is Rick. Most of the postings on the site have his name, and he answers when you call their phone.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> I honestly think you guys are giving Rick too much credit... the longer and longer this drags on, the more and more I think it is Dillon that is typing a lot of this random stuff. It reeks of ramblings of a naive kid that thinks he can just try to over explain things and people will eventually believe him.
> 
> I used to be like that too. It's the "if I talk more, then I am right" attitude. Luckily, I grew up and had a couple good teachers that smacked some sense into me and taught me how to think critically and present good arguments. Unfortunately, we all know what happened to the potential for that to happen here...
> 
> I'm not saying Rick doesn't play a part in it... but I think it's probably Dillon making this stuff up and then working with his dad to "legitimize" it.


You may very well be right Tom. It does make a lot of sense. Perhaps we are naive in thinking that someone who was once one of our own wouldn't turn down this dark path, and are secretly hopeful that it is just the ignorance and misunderstanding of his father that pushed him or led him down this road.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> I don't know, for some reason I think a lot of this is Rick. Most of the postings on the site have his name, and he answers when you call their phone.


That's a good point, I've talked to Rick several times. He still doesn't know it's me.  I have never talked to Dillion and when I've asked to speak to the breeder to ask some more detailed questions he gets defensive.

There is something to take from this that other can help do. They are extremely paranoid and defensive now. The more people who call, get them on the hook with you thinking you just might buy some frogs, and then drop the hammer, the worse it will get. This will ultimately affect their business as when they start treating customers and adversaries who need to be questioned or not trusted, they'll turn more and more people off of them. So call them, be nice, polite. Don't threaten or harass, but get them excited to make a sale, and then let them know where you really stand.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

BANDIT Leucomelas bumblebee frog

Looks like they're trying to market Ken Izumi "line" luecs now as something special of theirs.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> Vic Ruutan SIGNATURE Lines (NEW)
> Vic Ruutan (pronounced "Roo-Tan") is that dashing gentlemen with the purple jacket, sunglasses and creates sparks with the snap of his fingers. The "Adventures of Vic Ruutan" will be published to this site, amazing stuff!


Apparently Not so slick Vic, has his own line of frogs now....


----------



## easternversant

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> ALL of our frogs are, of course, totally harmless, 100% quality guaranteed, and part of our SAFE® brand. That is our federally registered tademark we own. That SAFE® trademark was granted to us by the U.S. Department of Commerce for captive bred amphibians. On care, our frogs are pets. We are a top breeder. Our frog pets are a great blessing indeed. If others say there are toxins secreted in frogs, for ANY reason, any reason at all, even if they are speaking in mere possibilitiy, avoid those frogs like a plague. Ours are pure and totally harmless, and our research AND develop of our own frogs (including some stunning, never before seen, offspring). We spent many hours, and many, many dollars to prove the science and GUARANTEE our frogs are harmless, but please do not eat them.


Damn, they bred the ability to sequester alkaloids out of these frogs?! And they bred out the ability to make common skin peptides?! 

These are HUGE findings! I'm off to go look up the scientific papers demonstrating this....


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well kids, apparently Vic Ruutan is no stranger to dart frogs: Signature Line SAFE dart frogs

Apparently their copyrighted picture that isn't theirs is of the first dart frogs! Wow! But, why do they look like bull frogs?


----------



## Dale D

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

OK?
"Vic Ruutan (pronounced "Roo-Tan") is that dashing gentlemen with the purple jacket and sunglasses. He creates sparks with the snap of his fingers because he is hundreds of years old".


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

8. Our packaging! We use new styrofoam coolers with a snug fitting lid shipped inside a 200lb burst cardboard box. Your frogs will never be crushed! The lid closes off the cooler and the seam is tight, but not air tight. Sure it is more expensive, and the $7.50 box fee we charge does not cover the total cost of the box and our temperature control items, but we think your frogs are worth it! 
Top Quality Frogs - Buy From Us and the pic.

Yeah, like they're the only people who use those boxes...last I checked everybody did.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I don`t know if I should laugh, cry or bark at the moon.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Well kids, apparently Vic Ruutan is no stranger to dart frogs: Signature Line SAFE dart frogs
> 
> Apparently their copyrighted picture that isn't theirs is of the first dart frogs! Wow! But, why do they look like bull frogs?


These people are like a bad Saturday morning cartoon.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

http://safedartfrogs.com/images/logos/VicRuutanAdventures.jpg

They don't even bother to remove the ~~~~~~~ under Ruutan.....

So much fail...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> 8. Our packaging! We use new styrofoam coolers with a snug fitting lid shipped inside a 200lb burst cardboard box. Your frogs will never be crushed! The lid closes off the cooler and the seam is tight, but not air tight. Sure it is more expensive, and the $7.50 box fee we charge does not cover the total cost of the box and our temperature control items, but we think your frogs are worth it!
> Top Quality Frogs - Buy From Us and the pic.
> 
> Yeah, like they're the only people who use those boxes...last I checked everybody did.


Actually a lot of people use them, and don't charge an extra $7.50 either. But when you're shaving cents off your frogs to beat the price on better quality frogs from reputable and respectable breeders, you have to recoup your cost someplace else.


----------



## boombotty

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I was driving from St. Louis to Springfield today and saw a billboard for online computer repair or something with a picture of the infamous "Vic" on it. I will be making the trip again for Easter and will find out the website. I wonder who ripped off who (I doubt a computer website stole a pic from Rick).


----------



## frog dude

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Here are some for your list terrim -
> 
> *Domains used in the past or currently owned:*
> *frogdude.com*
> designerfrogs.com
> shipyourfrogs.com
> frogdayus.com
> usafrogzoo.com
> shopdartfrog.com
> shopdartfrogs.com
> petdartfrog.com
> frogzoo.org
> dartfrog.co
> buydartfrogs.com
> dartfrogwarehouse.com
> safedartfrogs.com
> wascher.com/usafrogfrogzoo.html
> 
> *Business names used:*
> *Frogdudes*
> Koifrog
> Designer Frogs
> US Dart Frog
> USA Frog
> USA Frog Zoo
> Frog Zoo
> Frog Warehouse
> Art Frog Warehouse
> Dart Frog Warehouse
> Buy Dart Frogs
> Safe Dart Frogs


Ok, so I've been pretty silent throughout this whole Wascher epidemic, not really voicing my opinion because I like dendroboard and don't want to lose my account, plus you guys are already doing a fantastic job staying on top of this whole thing. I decided to catch up on this thread today and came across the above post (bolded words). At first I thought it was just a coincidence (my username) until I remembered I hadn't really said anything on this topic yet. So I'm honna clear my name now in case there was any suspicion that I was somehow collaborating with these people...it's ok, I'm honestly more likely to root for the AZ Scum Devils...ehem, _Sun_ Devils... then I am to do anything supportive of these knuckleheads. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure I've got half a brain.

Keep up the good work guys! 

-Josiah


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

SAFE Designer Dart Frogs

So USfartdogs charges 3 times as much for a mutt. Interesting.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



boombotty said:


> I wonder who ripped off who .


Yea, that's a tough one.


----------



## Jegger

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm still new so please be patient with me 
Questions
When you say mutt are you saying 2 different locals of the same frog? Example green and bronze auratus mixed with blue and black auratus.
Or is it more like auratus mixed with leucs?

Either way I know its wrong I'm just trying to make since of what they are doing.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Jegger, god only knows what the mad scientist Rick is putting together in his tanks. I believe he is mixing blue/black auratus with green/black auratus. He is probably mixing much more than that. This is surely the last nail in his businesses coffin. I doubt anyone will buy from them if they are informed and do a little research about our hobby. He could be mixing leucs and tincs or auratus and tincs so on and so forth. The guy is a basket case. The sooner their business folds the better. We honestly shouldn't even be giving their websites traffic as that creates revenue for them as well.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

how does giving their website traffic create revenue for them? They don't have outside ads to generate revenue. If anything it will put more demand on their servers and cost them more money...


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> *Debunking more USDartFrog Junk*
> 
> 
> 
> USDartFrog website said:
> 
> 
> 
> US Dart Frog is actively engaged in studying captive bred, no poison dart frogs.* Witjh over 600 frogs* we jhave red and raised in house, we believe we know thing or two about breeding frogs and what "Polymorphism" truly means
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1)*
> thousands of frogs?
> 2,000 frogs?
> 3,000 frogs?
> 
> ... or is it 600?
> 
> Sometimes the truth slips out, doesn't it? Get your story straight Ricky.
> 
> *2)* You don't have a clue what polymorphism means. The babble and bullshit you post on your website demonstrates this lack of knowledge over and over and over again
> 
> *3)* Despite your claims of being a scientist, nuclear engineer, and lawyer you still don't understand how spellcheck works ... brilliant!
Click to expand...

Now it's 6,000?



USDartfrog website said:


> ... breeding designer frogs not only requires a strong working familiarity with breeding captive dart frogs, and we surely have that *in our 6,000+ offspring* ...


Are we suppose to believe they've gone from 2,000 to 6,000 in the past 5 months. Starting to look a bit pathological ...

I guess that's what lawyers do best.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Now it's 6,000?
> 
> 
> 
> Are we suppose to believe they've gone from 2,000 to 6,000 in the past 5 months. Starting to look a bit pathological ...
> 
> I guess that's what lawyers do best.


I can see the # growing that fast if they can't find people to buy them


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just can't imagine feeding all of them. don't these kids have school?


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yeah Charlie that's what is going to be a bummer. Soon they will have over 10,000 frogs under their care if they don't slow down, then they won't be able to care for them all and end up putting them down by the masses.


----------



## Chris Miller

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



boombotty said:


> I was driving from St. Louis to Springfield today and saw a billboard for online computer repair or something with a picture of the infamous "Vic" on it. I will be making the trip again for Easter and will find out the website. I wonder who ripped off who (I doubt a computer website stole a pic from Rick).





Enlightened Rogue said:


> Yea, that's a tough one.


Google might be stock imagery or from this Logo Templates - Mako Websites


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Jegger said:


> I'm still new so please be patient with me
> Questions
> When you say mutt are you saying 2 different locals of the same frog? Example green and bronze auratus mixed with blue and black auratus.
> Or is it more like auratus mixed with leucs?
> 
> Either way I know its wrong I'm just trying to make since of what they are doing.


Well, at this point I believe it's mixed locales, but we're talking about someone who started out saying they never would mix locales even though they felt Lotters gave them reason to. A couple month later they are debuting the designer frogs they had in the works all that time. They are now saying they've done extensive phenotype research and trials which, if true, means they have been crossing locales a very long time. On top of that they hold to proprietary recipes for these designer frogs, so they will never disclose what's actually in them.

So really, your guess is as good as mine. I assume it's just locale crossing but I don't think anyone here will be surprised when they start crossing breeds. I mean, why not? Almost all of the reasoning for not crossing breeds applies to locales as well. Their B.S. pro-environment excuse works just as well there too.

I just thought it was funny that a frog any of us would be pissed to find out made it into our collections costs 2-3 times what a locale specific frog costs.


----------



## Jegger

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thank you for the answeres and helping me to understand what's going on. I guess only buy from reputable breeders for me. I wander if they sell to pet stores I have seen few darts in pet stores looks like I won't be buying from these stores just in case.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Very likely.

Stick with people you know to be sure. People with good Vendor Reps here.

s


Jegger said:


> Thank you for the answeres and helping me to understand what's going on. I guess only buy from reputable breeders for me. I wander if they sell to pet stores I have seen few darts in pet stores looks like I won't be buying from these stores just in case.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Looks like the boys at USDartFrog are shying away from the "designer" moniker in order to avoid scrutiny. They are now calling these mutts *"Ornamental Frogs"*

And some new additions to the "Ornamental Frog" category. Who the heck would pay $190-230 for a mutt frog? 

Also note that some of these new frogs are over 12 months old ... so this has definitely been in the works since way before their initial roll-out.


----------



## thedude

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Apparently they think they have their own SIGNATURE lines...

safedartfrogs.com/signature-line-no-poison-dart-frogs.aspx


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Who is selling them these frogs?? Like banded leucs and sips? Have I missed something here because I've read every comment to date..


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Looks like the boys at USDartFrog are shying away from the "designer" moniker in order to avoid scrutiny. They are now calling these mutts *"Ornamental Frogs"*
> 
> And some new additions to the "Ornamental Frog" category. Who the heck would pay $190-230 for a mutt frog?
> 
> Also note that some of these new frogs are over 12 months old ... so this has definitely been in the works since way before their initial roll-out.


Yep, and if anyone would trust that their oyapock or whatever they wanted to buy isn't actually a hybrid that just didn't make the "designer" or "ornamental" cut to be sold at any inflated cost... then I have a time machine I'd like to sell you for 1,000,000 dollars (It looks an awful lot like a 2002 old bravada, but don't let that fool you!)

This is one of the biggest downsides to someone breeding designer frogs. Unless that is all they breed, you can't really trust you'll get something that isn't a hybrid. Not every hybrid looks all that different from one or both of the parents.

Given the tactics these people are comfortable using, the frequent edits to the websites, and at one point saying they would "not mix any species or varieties"... Can you really trust a word they say 

That is why they are so dangerous to this hobby. This isn't the slippery slope we all worried about when a few people make and then sell hybrids. This is the worst case scenario of a commercial breeder selling both hybrids and normal frogs, who goes back on the word saying "will not mix any species or varieties" and thus can't be trusted... That means any frog that went through these people hands is now and forever will be tainted, along with it's offspring. 

Dillon thanks to your efforts, and your Dad's and well the whole family's... there are apparently several thousand dart frogs that will likely never find a home, or at least be the source of a crap ton of drama and mistrust for years to come since almost no one is going be able to trust that the varieties you worked with don't contain a fair amount of hybrid blood once your stock really gets in the public's hands. It's going to be difficult to trust others re selling your frogs, that they aren't putting hybrids out there secretly or at least unknowingly. Eventually it may get so bad that basically all those species are shunned by the majority of the hobby. 

My guess is you're hoping it will all collapse and we'll be forced to jump on the hybrid/designer dart frog bandwagon to get frogs that even look remotely like the old frogs that came from nature. Since we wouldn't bend to your will, and didn't want things done your way in our hobby, you're going to try to break and remake the hobby in your image, where maybe you'll be able to survive as a business. But you'll still be remembered as the bad guy, and it's going to be a long time before the bad guy is the first one we go to buy frogs from.

I know I'll still buy em from someone else  ...Hope you've been saving your money. 

For supposedly loving captive dart frogs, you've done more damage to them and this hobby then anyone else in history (except maybe smugglers... maybe).


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> For supposedly loving captive dart frogs, you've done more damage to them and this hobby then anyone else in history (except maybe smugglers... maybe).


I fully believe that smugglers have done less to damage the hobby. and smugglers probably have more ethics than DFW...


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well Rick, you're reading this. I think many of us can agree that that is a fact. Now, you claim to be a moral man. However, we know you are in fact the biggest slimeball the hobby has ever seen. Now, I want you to think about this:

How can you go to sleep at night knowing that you have the potential to destroy the hobby and the captive posterity of the animals you claim to love? Think about that one. You've spit in the hobbies face, no let us spit in yours and in Vic Rutaan'. You don't care, but you should. Enjoy having this on your conscience. I know I enjoy the though of you being wracked with guilt, because believe me, you should be guilty. You owe the entire dart frog community an apology.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They reference tinctorious.ch and say they have bred some of the rare tincs shown there, in their designers. Wrong again. Those are pure populations, you made a mutt that looks like one.


----------



## MrBiggs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> We hate you Rick, We hate your organization and We hate what you're doing, and We hate Vic Rutaan. You don't care, but you should. Enjoy having this on your conscience. I know I enjoy the though of you being wracked with guilt, because believe me, you should be guilty. You owe the entire dart frog community an apology.


Please do not speak for others, it's in bad taste. I don't support one iota of what this individual has done and I sincerely hope that he makes drastic changes. However, I don't hate him. Hate is a poison that kills only the person giving in to it. Let's keep this discussion in the context of actions, not emotions, and especially not entirely destructive ones.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Yep, and if anyone would trust that their oyapock or whatever they wanted to buy isn't actually a hybrid that just didn't make the "designer" or "ornamental" cut to be sold at any inflated cost...


ABSOLUTELY they would do this! They've already gone to great lengths to make the argument that according to Lotters all locale/varietal names are nonsense and that a tinc is a tinc is a tinc. I guarantee you that whatever your looking for, they would find you a frog that looks enough like it to sell. Think about it, if all locales were meaningless, why not?


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Anyone know how to contact Dr. Lotters? I'd be interested to see what he thinks of DFWs "science".


----------



## Ghost vivs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I see what they are doing with the high prices for the frankenfrogs. 

If they show people that hybrids and man made morphs go for big money then surely it will catch on...

I mean come on, many folks will see dollar signs and try to get in their rowboat. Then with their new found flock of followers, a new forum will appear. With his freshly built pulpit of hybrids he will teach his growing flock his interpretation of a book written not all that long ago and he will instruct his flock to go forth and spread the good word. Once the good word is spread a new king will emerge...

Stop me if this sounds like a story all of you have heard before...

Casper


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Anyone know how to contact Dr. Lotters? I'd be interested to see what he thinks of DFWs "science".



He has already been contacted... I personally haven't seen a response, if he even bothered to waste his time giving one. 

It's a tough situation... much like the recent Bill Nye debate, by engaging people like this sometimes you end up giving them credibility.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Another thing - enough of the getting personal here.

Keep it to facts. No need to call them names or get personal.

The facts alone are sufficient here.

s


Scott said:


> ATTENTION
> 
> We've moved this back to "General" per request.
> 
> Stick to the topic. The topic is *NOT *religion.
> 
> Memes will get you an infraction.
> 
> Going off topic will get you an infraction.
> 
> This was moved - by request - to an area with more traffic.
> 
> It is up to you folks to make sure it *STAYS HERE*.
> 
> s


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just can't see much of a difference between their Coral, Sapphire and Blue Frost MUTTS. These could easily be subtle variations from the same pairing. 

Worse yet, these frogs could easily be confused with morphs already in the hobby ...

As Dave said, all of their frogs are now suspect and, unfortunately, anyone not already well established in the hobby will be scrutinized if they are dealing with morphs that the Waschers have in their inventory.


----------



## Brian317

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Worse yet, these frogs could easily be confused with morphs already in the hobby ...


It just became MUCH more important to track where your frogs came from and where any future frogs come from.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Brian317 said:


> It just became MUCH more important to track where your frogs came from and where any future frogs come from.


This is very true. I will be checking with the person the seller claims to have bought any of those species from if I'm ever in a spot to buy new frogs from someone I haven't already done business with before DFW started up. Luckily there's a TON of reputable people around still.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> ABSOLUTELY they would do this! They've already gone to great lengths to make the argument that according to Lotters all locale/varietal names are nonsense and that a tinc is a tinc is a tinc. I guarantee you that whatever your looking for, they would find you a frog that looks enough like it to sell. Think about it, if all locales were meaningless, why not?


Good point. Rick and the Family have already shown that they don't care what we want. What we want is wrong it seems in their minds, and they have already proven they are going to do what they want and shove what they want down our throats. 

The only guarantee anyone has they won't try to sell a hybrid that looks like one of the parents as a pure morph/locality is Rick's word... and *Rick's word changes everyday. *



Brian317 said:


> It just became MUCH more important to track where your frogs came from and where any future frogs come from.


Oh for sure. I mean up until now an oyapock was pretty much an oyapock. As long as it was healthly you could buy it from pretty much anyone with a half decent rep and breed it to any other oyapock in the hobby. Vittatus and others were like this too. You didn't really need to know specific line info, or locality as long as you knew the the species/morph, but Now at the very least you'll probably need specify in your Ads that it never went through the Wacher's hands.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Now at the very least you'll probably need specify in your Ads that it never went through the Wacher's hands.


Maybe we should all do this in our ads. 

Personally, I will be asking everyone I purchase from if the frogs history includes any frogs from the Waschers/USDartFrog/Genesis ... whatever names they have used.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Maybe we should all do this in our ads.


I'd say that is dangerous, because the faster irreputable people pick up on that, the faster they will buy DFW frogs and slap a "Never been touched by DFW" label on their ad.

It would probably be better just to ask where the frogs came from, and if there is even a whiff of DFW shenanigans, just keep looking.

my 2 cents,

-Charlie


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Good point Charlie.

I guess this is where reputation comes in. Hard part is how would a new person get a good reputation if they've not sold before? I mean newbies like me already know names like Nabors, Frye, Understory and so on. This just makes things difficult.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Charlie Q said:


> I'd say that is dangerous, because the faster irreputable people pick up on that, the faster they will buy DFW frogs and slap a "Never been touched by DFW" label on their ad.
> 
> It would probably be better just to ask where the frogs came from, and if there is even a whiff of DFW shenanigans, just keep looking.
> 
> my 2 cents,
> 
> -Charlie


I see your point Charlie, but I'm not sure I agree entirely. Currently, and until things crash, buying $130 hybrids so you can sell $35 babies isn't a sustainable business model. The risk is there but I think it would go a long way towards educating people who are shopping for frogs. Back in the old DFW post I stated that I intended to post in my ads...



> "From a collection containing no frogs that have ever passed through the Dart Frog Warehouse".
> 
> ...as a selling point. After all, considering the pathogen freight train being risked here as well as the danger we feel their business model is to the hobby, it is a positive selling point. New people to the site spend a lot of time in the classifieds and it will at least inform them that there is a debate...


It seemed a little premature at the time, but I really think the idea has more pros than cons. I'm not planning on a diatribe, but I would like to let anyone buying frogs from me that I find their operating procedures repugnant.

Either way, we can agree that people should talk to whoever they buy their frogs from and ask about lineage. 

*Incidentally, searching out a post I made on DB and then quoting myself is likely one of the most narcissistic things I've ever done. The shame...*


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I hope they never move into pums or thumbs. Not only would hybrid pumilio be a disaster, they'd probably kill every thumb and pum they had.


----------



## zachaustin

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Maybe I have been offsite for a while, but what is the DFW tag? Honest Q….


----------



## Dart girl

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> KOIFROG Designer Frogs
> 
> 
> 
> And so it begins.
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day for the hobby and amphibian conservation.
> 
> 
> 
> It's time to really ratchet things up a notch. I hope this will really be a wake up call to all the naysayers and closet supporters of these jerks.[/
> 
> That's defiantly a hybrid imo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USDartFrog website said:


> Other than being of the same polymorphic species of frog (i.e., Tinctorius), every frog listed below is unrelated to each other–they are from distinctly different parents and a distinctly different mix of parental varieties was bred to produce them! The first three pics not inly prove polymorphism, the fact they do indeed produce offspring of their own further dispels the hybrid myth. These are truly amazing frogs!
> (Due to the breeding expertise and phenotyping that went into the design and development of each one, these frogs will not be offered as a sale item at any time.)


Evidently Ricky read my last post. Of course, as has already been said, his word changes everyday and there is no reason for me (and many others) to believe anything posted on the USDartFrog website.

Not quite sure what he means by "first three pics not inly prove polymorphism". Those first three pics sure look monomorphic to me. 

And as I have said before, the fact that these mutts can reproduce means nothing. The idea that the inability to reproduce is a defining characteristic of a hybrid is as old as disco. 

Doesn't sound like these "scientists" are very scientifically literate to me.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USfartdogs said:


> Other than being of the same polymorphic species of frog (i.e., Tinctorius), every frog listed below is unrelated to each other–they are from distinctly different parents and a distinctly different mix of parental varieties was bred to produce them! The first three pics not inly prove polymorphism, the fact they do indeed produce offspring of their own further dispels the hybrid myth. These are truly amazing frogs!


So what they are saying is that because they were able to make 3 similar looking frogs from 3 different pairings then...uh...frogs are polymorphic? Who ever said tincs were not polymorphic? Who ever said these were hybrids? Who ever said that hybrid frogs can't breed? The next thing you know Rick is going to declare that he and his scientific team have proven that tincs are, in fact, amphibians...much to the chagrin of the scientific community and the hobby. 

Rick, stop using words like phenotype and polymorphism, you're doing it wrong. Also frog breeding...stop that too.


----------



## Dragoon

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



zachaustin said:


> Maybe I have been offsite for a while, but what is the DFW tag? Honest Q….


Dartfrog warehouse


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

More fairy tales from Rick:

COLORâ„¢ Phenotyping


----------



## Yobosayo

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



zachaustin said:


> Maybe I have been offsite for a while, but what is the DFW tag? Honest Q….


It's certainly not Dallas Fort Worth


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> So what they are saying is that because they were able to make 3 similar looking frogs from 3 different pairings then...uh...frogs are polymorphic? Who ever said tincs were not polymorphic? Who ever said these were hybrids? Who ever said that hybrid frogs can't breed? The next thing you know Rick is going to declare that he and his scientific team have proven that tincs are, in fact, amphibians...much to the chagrin of the scientific community and the hobby.
> 
> Rick, stop using words like phenotype and polymorphism, you're doing it wrong. Also frog breeding...stop that too.


Here's Ricky's not so logical explanation 



USDartFrog website" said:


> As to polymorphism, one need only look at the three frogs named CORAL, SAPPHIRE and BLUE FROST, for proof.
> 
> Each of them is:
> 
> 1. Unrelated to each other;
> 2. Has distinctly different parents;
> 3. The parents being from frog lines RECOGNIZED by the hobby as distinct, each has separate import data, and all are of respected bloodlines;
> 4. A different mix of parental varieties each time; and
> 5. Bred under the exact same conditions, feeding schedule and foodstuffs.
> Observation: They look similar, yet fantastically different, i.e., a Polymorphic species.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This ultimately this will put pressure on WC imports, as these frogs get dispersed many will fear getting mixed morph animals and put a greater reliance on imports. These people are only about making money, nothing more, too bad they really don't care about the animals they are working with. When making money is the ultimate goal, so many times ethics get thrown out the window, the preverbial "selling their soul to the devil" seems to be in place here, so sad they can't step back and see that.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> More fairy tails from Rick:
> 
> COLORâ„¢ Phenotyping


Reading that made me feel dirty. 80% of the benefits of "Designer" frogs apply equally to any captive bred frog, the other 20% are lies and misleading implications. I'm particularly fond of the points where he says all tincs are mutts anyway, and that they strongly suspect that the artificial morphs they create actually exist in nature.

OK, here's a question Mr. Phenotype. You've been in the hobby about 2 years. Do you seriously expect even the dumb people you prey on to believe you figured out all the dominant and recessive Phenotypical Polymorphism in two years worth of breeding?

Here's a tip. Trademark the name Fenotype, then you can define it any way you see fit.



markpulawski said:


> This ultimately this will put pressure on WC imports, as these frogs get dispersed many will fear getting mixed morph animals and put a greater reliance on imports. These people are only about making money, nothing more, too bad they really don't care about the animals they are working with. When making money is the ultimate goal, so many times ethics get thrown out the window, the proverbial "selling their soul to the devil" seems to be in place here, so sad they can't step back and see that.


That is the God's honest truth.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Reading that made me feel dirty. 80% of the benefits of "Designer" frogs apply equally to any captive bred frog, the other 20% are lies and misleading implications. I'm particularly fond of the points where he says all tincs are mutts anyway, and that they strongly suspect that the artificial morphs they create actually exist in nature.
> 
> OK, here's a question Mr. Phenotype. You've been in the hobby about 2 years. Do you seriously expect even the dumb people you prey on to believe you figured out all the dominant and recessive Phenotypical Polymorphism in two years worth of breeding?
> 
> Here's a tip. Trademark the name Fenotype, then you can define it any way you see fit.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the God's honest truth.


Mr Phenotype !!!

Great! I love it! 

From now on I will, not so affectionately, refer to him as that 

I have a new respect for hobbyists that mix because they say it pleases them. At least those people are truthful and don't try to justify it by lies, deceit, and preying on naive pet owners..


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

COLORâ„¢ Phenotyping

I find this "interesting"

"Accordingly, some of the proceeds of each GENESIS frog we sell will also go towards funding research projects in the frogs’ native rainforest habitat, by fellow conservationists like those who operate Tinctorius.ch, in hopes of discovering more about these amazing creatures, and cataloging them to further evidence the dwindling numbers of frogs in the wild. In so doing, we will all underscore the need for captive bred designer frogs as the responsible alternative to wild cauall for the purpose of properly conserving and prove the need to act now before these frogs become endangered and/or protected."

Here is the link to their "cause" 
Home

How low can they go?????


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Some of Mr. Phenotypes trademarks (aka - things to avoid):

Signature
Artfrogs
Safe
A1
A1 Sexed Pairs
KoiFrog 
Frogsafe
T-bag
Pillow
Color
Naturist
Holy Spirit
Perfect Balance
Tadcube
OneHop
Arrive2Thrive
FrogMatch
Go-to -Market
Fly-doh
Genesis 
Vic Ruutan
Frogzoo
Bandit 
Creme 
Sunbee
Neon 
Sunkist 
Evergreen
Onyx
Peridot
Deepsea
Eclispse
Aurora
Lunar Grey
Malibu 
Epoc
Apollo
Jalapeno
Jade 
Patriot
Samurai 
Denim
Coral 
Sapphire
Blue Frost 
Aztec 
Midnight
Neptune
Zigzag
Santa


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Bcs TX said:


> COLORâ„¢ Phenotyping
> 
> I find this "interesting"
> 
> "Accordingly, some of the proceeds of each GENESIS frog we sell will also go towards funding research projects in the frogs’ native rainforest habitat, by fellow conservationists like those who operate Tinctorius.ch, in hopes of discovering more about these amazing creatures, and cataloging them to further evidence the dwindling numbers of frogs in the wild. In so doing, we will all underscore the need for captive bred designer frogs as the responsible alternative to wild cauall for the purpose of properly conserving and prove the need to act now before these frogs become endangered and/or protected."
> 
> Here is the link to their "cause"
> Home
> 
> How low can they go?????


Perhaps Mr. Phenotype's understanding of the German language is as poor as his understanding of science.


----------



## oddlot

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I've been trying to stay out of this thread,but the more I read the more it sickens me! I wouldn't by an apple from them if I hadn't eaten in a week! Just Like Mark said,The more these half breeds get out the more people will buy wild caught to ensure they are getting the frogs pure as they should be.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> This ultimately this will put pressure on WC imports


You are correct sir.

But sadly the people they are targeting have no idea what that even means.


----------



## oddlot

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No ,but it proves they don't care about what they are attempting to do and the long term repercussion on the wild population because of the wc demand it will cause from the people that do know the difference and don't want the dirty blood that could be circulating from these mutts!


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Evidently, we're all line breeders according to the "scientists" at the Wascher Institute for Pseudoscience, Polymorphic Non-sense, and Scientific Misunderstanding :



USDartFrog website said:


> It is worth noting, anyone and everyone who breeds frogs for a specific trait (e.g., fine spot or banded, etc.), appearance (e.g., powder blue or powder grey, blue or green sips, etc.), locale (e.g., El Cope or Highland Bronze auratus), or even the year of an original import, is a line breeder. Thus, the issue is not about whether a breeder "is" or "is not" line breeding, because all breeders of any volume do it. The issue is about what mythical rules and approvals are needed to freely breed whatever you want IN CAPTIVITY PROVIDED there is NO harmful impact on wild populations. In fact, wild populations are preserved and conserved by more captive breeding of frogs. Of course, we will ALWAYS specify clearly if the frog is a Classic Frog, Signature Classic, or Vic Ruutan Ornamental Designer frog(s).


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Interesting, so according to that logic, sustaining a captive population that is representing a wild population is by their definition always line breeding.. I wonder when the zoos are going to realize that they've been doing it wrong all this time. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> A few months back we took "the FrogZoo to you" by presenting a lot of frogs, including eggs and tadpoles at various stages to the St. Jude Childrens Hospital in Memphis. St. Jude's is a cancer care hospital for kids. Of course, that visit was first cleared by their medical staff, legal departments, and public relations teams. There was medical staff on hand, tanks and display tubs were sealed, and no frogs were handled. (AT NO TIME was any mention made of any company name or anything remotely associated with commerce or sale. Sure, parents requested information, but we openly proclaimed we are only here to share, and never took a name or even gave a web address!)


If their frogs are 100% safe! why were the tubs sealed and frogs not handled. I mean these are 100%healthy and safe animals right. If that were true, there would be no cause for concern. But, it's not, we know it and Rick knows it. Sounds like Rick was concerned about the liability of getting some kid with compromised immunity, sick by exposure to these animals.


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> If their frogs are 100% safe! why were the tubs sealed and frogs not handled. I mean these are 100%healthy and safe animals right. If that were true, there would be no cause for concern. But, it's not, we know it and Rick knows it. Sounds like Rick was concerned about the liability of getting some kid with compromised immunity, sick by exposure to these animals.


If that St. Jude story is true, I'm a little surprised that the hospital staff would allow reptiles or amphibians in with their patients, sealed container or not.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> This ultimately this will put pressure on WC imports, as these frogs get dispersed many will fear getting mixed morph animals and put a greater reliance on imports. These people are only about making money, nothing more, too bad they really don't care about the animals they are working with. When making money is the ultimate goal, so many times ethics get thrown out the window, the preverbial "selling their soul to the devil" seems to be in place here, so sad they can't step back and see that.


Echoing what others said... GOOD POINT, especially since I think they push their CB frogs reducing WC demand as a selling point. 



Bcs TX said:


> COLORâ„¢ Phenotyping
> 
> I find this "interesting"
> 
> "Accordingly, some of the proceeds of each GENESIS frog we sell will also go towards funding research projects in the frogs’ native rainforest habitat, by fellow conservationists like those who operate Tinctorius.ch, in hopes of discovering more about these amazing creatures, and cataloging them to further evidence the dwindling numbers of frogs in the wild. In so doing, we will all underscore the need for captive bred designer frogs as the responsible alternative to wild cauall for the purpose of properly conserving and prove the need to act now before these frogs become endangered and/or protected."
> 
> Here is the link to their "cause"
> Home
> 
> How low can they go?????


Ya another example of them trying to leach off other people (IMO) to gain some credibility... and where is any proof of all these conservation, research, and education efforts of theirs? We're really supposed to take their word for it? ...The one they change and/or go back on daily 



Ed said:


> Interesting, so according to that logic, sustaining a captive population that is representing a wild population is by their definition always line breeding.. I wonder when the zoos are going to realize that they've been doing it wrong all this time.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I asked them the same thing I think way back when this all started, but they bailed on DB and then the avalanche of posts and drama started. I'd still really like to hear their thoughts on that. Nice that someone much smarter then me was also wondering 

Oh and it's just more evidence that Rick and/or Dillion don't actually understand a lot of the science they are reading 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically by their criteria aren't we humans "line bred"?. Didn't we teeter on the brink of extinction a long time ago, with most of humanity descending from a very small population? Or if you buy into some of the less scientific origin stories, not only are we line bred, we're the very definition of "inbred". 

...Boy that might make some people that subscribe to certain beliefs real hypocrites, if what was good enough for humans isn't good enough for frogs.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> If their frogs are 100% safe! why were the tubs sealed and frogs not handled. I mean these are 100%healthy and safe animals right. If that were true, there would be no cause for concern. But, it's not, we know it and Rick knows it. Sounds like Rick was concerned about the liability of getting some kid with compromised immunity, sick by exposure to these animals.


How big of them to add cancer patients to their resume


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Interesting, so according to that logic, sustaining a captive population that is representing a wild population is by their definition always line breeding.. I wonder when the zoos are going to realize that they've been doing it wrong all this time.


The problem is that they refuse to see the "varieties" (as they call them) as distinct populations. I've harped on population over and over again. Yet, they refuse to recognize it or even use the word.



Dendro Dave said:


> Oh and it's just more evidence that Rick and/or Dillion don't actually understand a lot of the science they are reading


Other than Lotters et al., it doesn't appear as they've been reading any science at all. At least not *primary literature*. Even if they do get into the primary literature, they've proven by their misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Lotters that they are either a) uncapable of understanding the primary lit or b) choose to purposefully manipulate and bastardize it to fit their goals.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> The problem is that they refuse to see the "varieties" (as they call them) as distinct populations. I've harped on population over and over again. Yet, they refuse to recognize it or even use the word.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than Lotters et al., it doesn't appear as they've been reading any science at all. At least not *primary literature*. Even if they do get into the primary literature, they've proven by their misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Lotters that they are either a) uncapable of understanding the primary lit or b) choose to purposefully manipulate and bastardize it to fit their goals.


I don't think it can be restated enough, they themselves said on their website at one point....* "We will not cross species or varieties"*. I'm sure it is gone by now, but it was definitely there, so that's all mute to me but it is still a good point, as were your other remarks .


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> If that St. Jude story is true, I'm a little surprised that the hospital staff would allow reptiles or amphibians in with their patients, sealed container or not.


I'm actually not. I worked in the aquarium maintainance biz for 15 years before being a Zookeeper. The company I worked for was sole vendor for MD Anderson in Houston and Texas Children's. Now there were places they wouldn't put tanks and each tank did get a risk assessment each year. But that is because the hospitals understood that like frogs, the fish aquarium, and equipment had some associated risks so precautions were taken. USDARTfrog knows it's frogs are not 100% safe either! hence the precautions theY took in a high risk environment.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> I don't think it can be restated enough, they themselves said on their website at one point....* "We will not cross species or varieties"*. I'm sure it is gone by now, but it was definitely there, so that's all mute to me but it is still a good point, as were your other remarks .


They did and I have the screen caps to prove it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> How big of them to add cancer patients to their resume


Don't believe for a second this was done for any reason other than to drum up business. 

And honestly, if it was, and they owned it, I'd have no problems with it. Businesses do this kind of charitable work for exposure ALL the time, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

But the fact that they're Lyon about it speaks volumes.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Charlie Q said:


> as non-members, can they even see this conversation now that it is in the lounge? I feel really sad for the kid whose entire life is screwed over from catching salmonella from these people's bad advice. if there was something i could do to stop that, i would.


Would someones WHOLE life literally be ruined from catching salmonella?

I watched someone have salmonella once and apart from praying for death for a few days it ran its course and the person is fine.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> How big of them to add cancer patients to their resume


LOL, I know, right? Refuse to take credit (or blame) at the hospital, then put it on the website? It defeats the purpose a bit when you brag about how selfless you are.



Dendro Dave said:


> I don't think it can be restated enough, they themselves said on their website at one point....* "We will not cross species or varieties"*. I'm sure it is gone by now...


...and it doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that based on the age of these ornamental frogs they were cross breeding *when they said that.*. In fact, if there is any truth at all to the idea that they have worked out the tinc/auratus genome, phenotypically speaking (they haven't) then they had to have been cross breeding from very early on.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Look, But Don't Touch = NONSENSE!
Frog skin is not fragile if the frog is healthy and non-poison like ALL of ours. Frogs jump on the ground, onto and out of trees, into logs, etc., in the wild and they don't look for a safe landing place before they hop. Healthy frogs explore and execise, so why is that less harmful than teaching the frogs to hop into your hand. Recently we had a photo shoot where a professional photograjher shot over a 1,000 photos. EVERY frog we wrangled fro him jup off the plants and frequently hit the floor to hop away. Sure we tried to stop them and caught everyon e of course, but they were NEVER harmed and never inured. ALL of them are as sual, and never worse off. handl with care, but handle as you desire!

Hand trained: This takes weeks. The next time you feed, put your hand in the enclosure and hold it motionless and open for a minute. Remove your hand and feed. Do this every time for aweek or two. The frogs will come closer to your hand expecting food as soon as you remove it. Then let flies crawl on your hand, insert your hand they wil see your hand as the food server. Eventually they will eat the flies off your hand. COOL feeling! Lastly, after several weeks, put your hand in palm open and let them them hop in. It may take a while, but they will and you may need to coax them with food. Immediately therefater add flies, just like the landing on your hand was the magic food button. From there, over time, they will learn your hand is their friend and hop in there regularly and not freak out!

Oh boy, where do I start? Some frogs tried to hop away, but they were caught, so no issue? What kind of drugs are they on? So there were no physical injuries, dart frogs stress. Stress is bad. Good job harming your frogs Ricky. Also, what about your skin oils etc? And how come my frogs don't come to me for food? You don't wrangle frogs. If they get away, like almost happened here, you end up with frog jerky. Some newbie will try this with their frogs now,and the frogs will end up dead. Good job again Rick!

Also, there is a new page for leaves. Apparently, magnolia works now. I though they couldn't stand by there use, so why bother? Oh, and don't bake leaves to kill nasties, just give a quick rinse.

This is some of the dumbest stuff yet. WOW.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Each frog was bred and raised from the egg by us, in house, in the U.S.A., in captivity. Our data is illuminating, and the knowledge base in breeding, frog rearing and care represents a significant source of valuable information...some say it is "a feat no frog company can match." Over time, when we find the right forum, we will share everything.

Who says that? Nobody, right? And right forum, well, I'm pretty sure that all of us here can tell you that you will not be accepted on any dart frog forum.


----------



## Ghost vivs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Each frog was bred and raised from the egg by us, in house, in the U.S.A., in captivity. Our data is illuminating, and the knowledge base in breeding, frog rearing and care represents a significant source of valuable information...some say it is "a feat no frog company can match." Over time, when we find the right forum, we will share everything.
> 
> Who says that? Nobody, right? And right forum, well, I'm pretty sure that all of us here can tell you that you will not be accepted on any dart frog forum.





Ghost vivs said:


> with their new found flock of followers, a new forum will appear. With his freshly built pulpit of hybrids he will teach his growing flock his interpretation of a book written not all that long ago and he will instruct his flock to go forth and spread the good word. Once the good word is spread a new king will emerge...


His forum will...

Casper


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Who says that? Nobody, right? And right forum, well, I'm pretty sure that all of us here can tell you that you will not be accepted on any dart frog forum.


They will create a forum. That has been coming a while. That will be...fun.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> They will create a forum. That has been coming a while. That will be...fun.


I'm sure that we will all be banned quickly


----------



## oddlot

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Would someones WHOLE life literally be ruined from catching salmonella?
> 
> I watched someone have salmonella once and apart from praying for death for a few days it ran its course and the person is fine.


Hey Doc,Just out of curiosity,if someone is immunosuppressed and or in a bad way (obviously they would be in a hospital, especially St. Jude)would it be good for them to get salmonella or would it make it more of an issue.I guess what I'm asking is would it be worse because of the immunosuppression?I'm not a doctor so I'm just curious.


----------



## grendel88

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Did anyone else notice that the same spelling and gramatical errors seen throughout their website appear in the "Customer Reviews" section. You guys don't think they might be disingenuous in regards to their feedback, do you? No one would stoop that low, right???


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



grendel88 said:


> Did anyone else notice that the same spelling and gramatical errors seen throughout their website appear in the "Customer Reviews" section. You guys don't think they might be disingenuous in regards to their feedback, do you? No one would stoop that low, right???


They seem to have no standards. Not surprising that they may be writing their on feedback.


----------



## us13fox

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



grendel88 said:


> Did anyone else notice that the same spelling and gramatical errors seen throughout their website appear in the "Customer Reviews" section. You guys don't think they might be disingenuous in regards to their feedback, do you? No one would stoop that low, right???



I have noticed this as well. All the reviews use the same phrases and writing style used in everything on their site. It is very easy to tell one persons writing word use and grammar from another. All the reviews are very subject and I don't know how they are able to sell on kingsnake. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The only reliable feedback would be third party feedback. I have no doubt they're making them up. Many have been obvious responses to our criticisms. I'm pretty sure they'll write a few reviews praising the mutts they're pushing soon.

There is not a single positive credible review of them out there. Even the one person who we can confirm actually did buy a frog from them, regrets it now.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Did anyone see the giant Tinc they have that can jump 4 feet? I assume they meant 4" but put 4'....this is like a giant reality TV show and we are all getting played, the stop sign up ahead, you have just entered the Twilight Zone....oops sorry they have that TM'd


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Now they would have us believe that people are submitting questions to them on how to breed for specific traits.

US Dart Frog

Never mind that the question reads just like everything else they write.

Apparently Dillion is now working on a breeding guide.

Here is a title suggestion:

"What not to do: A guide to alienating yourself from the hobby"


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

In fact, many of our customers have contacted us and said: "I just got them and put them in their vivarium...they are amazing, great, fantastic, [insert adjective], but why are they so active? Why do they explore, and why do they hop around so much and climb everything?" We politely say: "They are very healthy frogs, strong, vibrant, and athletic,...just as we advertised and guaranteed you would get. 

Uhg, all the frogs I've gotten hop around like crazy when they are first in their viv. That's not unique Rick. ALL frogs do that.


----------



## jaybugg13

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not that a sharp looking website is the be all end all, but really no one in 2014 goes to that site and thinks "this looks awesome I'll get my frogs here", especially if they've also been to josh's or some of the other online vendors. As a technologist I'm just offended whenever I have to go to that site to see some new ludicrous content that's been added.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



oddlot said:


> Hey Doc,Just out of curiosity,if someone is immunosuppressed and or in a bad way (obviously they would be in a hospital, especially St. Jude)would it be good for them to get salmonella or would it make it more of an issue.I guess what I'm asking is would it be worse because of the immunosuppression?I'm not a doctor so I'm just curious.


Of course thats possible.

My initial post was a response to another poster.

The sick kids had not come up yet.

I cant help but sense sarcasm in your post though, it was not needed.

Just saying.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Now they would have us believe that people are submitting questions to them on how to breed for specific traits.
> 
> US Dart Frog
> 
> Never mind that the question reads just like everything else they write.
> 
> Apparently Dillion is now working on a breeding guide.
> 
> Here is a title suggestion:
> 
> "What not to do: A guide to alienating yourself from the hobby"


At least, for once, it is stated as opinion rather than some as some non-existent "fact". It also appears to be written by Dillon himself as it does not contain all the legal phrases, double speak, grammatical and spelling errors of Mr. Phenotype's ramblings.

For sure, there is plenty of BS contained on this page, but it's hard to tell whether it comes from a lack of understanding or if it is the usual self serving rhetoric.

A few examples:

While the narrative may sound fancy and scientific to the layman, Dillon's presents an overly simplistic and naive view of chromatophore _unit _ structure and function, which leads to faulty conclusions (Here's hint for Dillon - notice that I stressed _unit_). It also ignores the role of pteridines and carotenoids in the chromatophore unit and the interaction of chromatophores units. 

A cursory check of the literature also puts the claims of irridiphore sex linkage into doubt, which would invalidate most of his argument, but I'd have to do a bit more research to confirm.

Additionally, the claims regarding observing the number and density of xanthophores and irridiphores seem highly unlikely as I doubt they have invested in the technology to observe and determine the density of these cells directly.

Another thing I noticed is that Mr. Phnotype and Phenotype Jr.'s promotion of line breeding is in direct contrast to the statement they make regarding _D. auratus_ in the hobby: 



USDartFrog website said:


> We had a difficult time getting the best auratus breeding stock, because many auratus on the market today have been inbred for so long the offspring is small & sickly.


*** The wording of this "Designer Q&A" page actually changed at least twice while I was typing this reply. You'd think, considering all the criticism they have encountered over the past several months and the resulting changes, that they would actually have their shit together before publishing anything to their website. some people never learn ...


----------



## oddlot

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Of course thats possible.
> 
> My initial post was a response to another poster.
> 
> The sick kids had not come up yet.
> 
> I cant help but sense sarcasm in your post though, it was not needed.
> 
> Just saying.



The sick kids were mentioned in posts 214,215,and 220.Your post was post 223,so they were mentioned before you posted,but that has nothing to do with my question.

As I stated I'm not a doctor and was genuinely curious.Sometimes that's the problem with the internet.Things can be misconstrued and twisted into what was not intended.Sorry if you felt that way,but it was a serious question as in your name it says you're a doctor. I was assuming it was in medicine.

Just asking


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> Did anyone see the giant Tinc they have that can jump 4 feet? I assume they meant 4" but put 4'....this is like a giant reality TV show and we are all getting played, the stop sign up ahead, you have just entered the Twilight Zone....oops sorry they have that TM'd


Perhaps they meant 4' straight down? They did mention dropping frogs earlier, right? I'm surprised that they didn't encourage regular "frog tossing", as most dart frogs are playful, and enjoy engaging in gymnastics with their owners.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I considered that, 4' off of a table to the floor, why not 7' or 8' then, my god I have just created the Olympian strain of frogs....quick someone TM that for me Olympic Frogs, the true champions


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

More junk to debunk - baloney sandwiches and bullshit soup


USDartFrog website said:


> As the experts out in the field, not seekers of new imports to sell, Lotters et al. inspired us to *cut through the baloney* and prove, observationally, that many of the "pure" tinctorius in the hobby frog trade today are mutts (i.e., the offspring of different mixes of dissimilar varietyy parents, OR, what is pure to some is a varauient of a mixed variety frog that merely loks the same BECAUSE of their polymorphic nature ...





USDartFrog website said:


> ... It follows then, that if speciation (green box above) were ever to occur, it would do so not by a pairing down of genetic material by line breeding a specific phenotype (appearance), but a combinative increase of genetic material from same species parents already having the characteristics to breed together (and interbreed as to mixed varieties), in order *to yield a "super" frog *as an example of evolutionary fitness for longevity. THIS IS EVOLUTION OF SPECIES in the wild and we do it here in the settng of captive bred frogs to yield the BEST PETS ...





USDartFrog website said:


> GENESIS™ ornamental pet frogs are a first of their kind on the market. The result of careful, designer influenced, breeding of top quality parent stock frogs, the results are stunning and the frogs are *genetically robust–superior to wild caught frogs*.


They're cutting through the baloney alright ...it's what they feed their customers!

So, let me get this straight. When a mixed locale/morph/"variety" frog arises from the hobby or importers, it's a mutt. Yet, when purposefully done by Mr. Phenotype and his group of pseudoscientists , it is a product of evolution, genetically superior to wild frogs ... a literal "Super Frog"?

Wait, they've never had any wild caught frogs. So how do these super pseudoscientists prove this superiority ? Scientific method? No. Hypothesis testing? No. Genetic testing? Nope. They serve it up in a big fancy bowl of bullshit soup and hope that you say "Mmm Mmm Good"!

A few new vocabulary words for Mr. Phenotype:

natural selection
directional selection
stabilizing selection
mutation
recombination
fitness


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Interesting how they call them "mutts".
I wonder where they got that from.

Pathetic


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Does anyone know of a single frog they have actually sold where the person who bought it was not happy with it?


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> More junk to debunk - baloney sandwiches and bullshit soup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're cutting through the baloney alright ...it's what they feed their customers!
> 
> So, let me get this straight. When a mixed locale/morph/"variety" frog arises from the hobby or importers, it's a mutt. Yet, when purposefully done by Mr. Phenotype and his group of pseudoscientists , it is a product of evolution, genetically superior to wild frogs ... a literal "Super Frog"?
> 
> Wait, they've never had any wild caught frogs. So how do these super pseudoscientists prove this superiority ? Scientific method? No. Hypothesis testing? No. Genetic testing? Nope. They serve it up in a big fancy bowl of bullshit soup and hope that you say "Mmm Mmm Good"!
> 
> A few new vocabulary words for Mr. Phenotype:
> 
> natural selection
> directional selection
> stabilizing selection
> mutation
> recombination
> fitness


Ya I'm sorry but just because they can create a frog that happens to look like a natural morph/locale, doesn't mean that all the frogs in the hobby that look like his designer imposter "mutt" were in fact hybrids. It does not automatically/logically follow that all our frogs are hybrids or evolved from the same kinds of pairings between locales/morphs in the wild (Is it possible? Sure, but we are talking about something that happened over hundreds if not thousands of years, and was due to evolutionary processes, not some wack job in their basement with a god complex.)... Nothing was proved except it is possible to create a frog that looks similar to some found in nature. They are engaged in Wish fulfillment by playing scientists (You're not a real scientist Rick/Dillion... You just play one on the internet!), and making self fulfilling prophecies with their BS pseudoscience claims... I think the only thing to argue here is whether it is just out of sad ignorance, or malicious intent to take advantage of uninformed people. I wager both, but with every word out of Rick's/Dillion's mouth it is harder to dismiss them as just ignorant, and I'm leaning more and more towards these people will say/do anything to sell a frog and shove their way of doing things down our throats... no matter the damage done to the hobby. 

...And that is one reason why we discourage this designer frog crap, because sometimes the frogs don't come out looking different from one of the parents, or they come out looking like another morph/locality, and can be confused for frogs which in fact they are not. Add to that the person selling these is using some of the sleaziest marketing tactics, has horrible reading comprehension, constantly changes their website, goes back on their word*("We will not mix species or varieties"),* and generally seems to get off on telling an entire hobby community to go screw itself, and *why in the world would anyone buy a frog from these people? *


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Does anyone know of a single frog they have actually sold where the person who bought it was not happy with it?


I think a few people have mentioned they knew people who bought from them and are no longer happy because basically these people are Dart frog hobby public enemy #1... If they are happy, I suspect that will change when they try to sell a frog that passed through these peoples hands or offspring and can't, possibly have to lie about it and/or sell it cheap. 

I think at this point very few will be willing to admit they bought frogs from these people, or ever owned a frog that came from these people... even indirectly. 

I have no doubt they can produce healthy frogs, it isn't that hard... but anyone who is willing to go so far as to trademare frogs as "SAFE" and make some pretty bold claims needs to have some hard questions put to them. 

Also in this hobby who you buy from is very important since trust is so important. These people have not earned any trust (But they made some up! (IMO)... they were somehow expert shippers without having shipped/sold frogs for more then a short time ), and in fact have thrown a lot it away already.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So what you are saying is that the SOLE reason they are no longer happy with their frogs are because other people do not like the supplier?

I was thinking more in the respect that people bought frogs who were unhealthy or something to that extent.

Because after sifting through all the comments I have not been able to find a single customer who bought an unhealthy frog from them.

I am just playing devil's advocate here.

I know it is much more part of a "bigger picture".

I am very curious though.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> So what you are saying is that the SOLE reason they are no longer happy with their frogs are because other people do not like the supplier?
> 
> I was thinking more in the respect that people bought frogs who were unhealthy or something to that extent.
> 
> Because after sifting through all the comments I have not been able to find a single customer who bought an unhealthy frog from them.
> 
> I am just playing devil's advocate here.
> 
> I know it is much more part of a "bigger picture".
> 
> I am very curious though.


Well my guess is that many of them also don't like the supplier now that we know where they stand, but other people not liking the supplier does effect the buyer also.


Oh I'm all for Devil's advocate...
Think of the frogs like diamonds... There is nothing inherently evil about diamonds in and of themselves, or even all diamonds from Africa, buying and selling diamonds in general is fine too (unless you hate economics/and materialism in general)... but conflict/*blood diamonds* and the people who deal in them are basically hated, and thus the diamonds are also hated because of all the drama surrounding them. They're tainted in effect, so no one with a conscience (or at least good business sense (unless they are unscrupulous), wants to touch them... Basically the *same thing* is happening now with Dartfrog warehouse/usdartfrog/*safedartfrogs*. 

Would you be happy to find out that nice big engagement ring you bought for your girl turned out to be a blood diamond? ...Would you be pissed if no one would take it off your hands or even if they did, that it made you feel dirty taking the money for that tainted item?

...Omg, just the fact that I have to type at least 3 names to make sure people who haven't kept up with the whole thread know who these people are is pissing me off, and just one reason to find these people and their frogs suspect 

But anyways ya, the drama surrounding the seller, has basically tainted the product, even if the product itself is fine... But in this case "fine" for many of us means being able to trust it isn't from the reject pile of ornamental/designer dart frogs that didn't look very different from one of the parents, or maybe came out looking like an entirely different morph/locality then either of the parents, but something that is in the hobby... So we have to trust people that what we buy from them is actually what we get, and there is much less reason to trust these people then most. Tack on the sleazy tactics, questionable husbandry advice, and pseudoscience BS, and we have many more reasons to want these people out of the hobby.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Very valid point. I think comparing them to diamonds, although a bit of a stretch, is also very apt. 

Although in saying that, there is a portion of me that REALLY hopes that Rick and Dillon are threatening to kill their workers and their families unless they produce more and better frogs.

Dart frog inspired genocides.

So what you are saying is instead of buying SAFE frogs we all need to buy CONFLICT FREE frogs?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> why in the world would anyone buy a frog from these people? [/B]


Because they don`t know any people.
The exact people they`re targeting.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have a difficult time getting people to respond to PMs on here when trying to buy frogs.

If there is a market, someone will fill it.

No?


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> More junk to debunk - baloney sandwiches and bullshit soup
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're cutting through the baloney alright ...it's what they feed their customers!
> 
> So, let me get this straight. When a mixed locale/morph/"variety" frog arises from the hobby or importers, it's a mutt. Yet, when purposefully done by Mr. Phenotype and his group of pseudoscientists , it is a product of evolution, genetically superior to wild frogs ... a literal "Super Frog"?
> 
> Wait, they've never had any wild caught frogs. So how do these super pseudoscientists prove this superiority ? Scientific method? No. Hypothesis testing? No. Genetic testing? Nope. They serve it up in a big fancy bowl of bullshit soup and hope that you say "Mmm Mmm Good"!
> 
> A few new vocabulary words for Mr. Phenotype:
> 
> natural selection
> directional selection
> stabilizing selection
> mutation
> recombination
> fitness



I'm sure he won't bother to look up any of those biology terms. The audacity to call the hobby's frogs mutts and not his own is beyond my level of comprehension; I stared at those quotes from their website for a few minutes wondering what could possibly go on in their heads…
Couldn't come up with anything.



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> So what you are saying is that the SOLE reason they are no longer happy with their frogs are because other people do not like the supplier?
> 
> I was thinking more in the respect that people bought frogs who were unhealthy or something to that extent.
> 
> Because after sifting through all the comments I have not been able to find a single customer who bought an unhealthy frog from them.
> 
> I am just playing devil's advocate here.
> 
> I know it is much more part of a "bigger picture".
> 
> I am very curious though.


Have you read the first thread? If you have only read this companion thread, you miss out on some crucial (IMO) information. And more specifically to your post, it's really hard to tell because:
A. I don't think anyone would admit to buying their frogs right now.
B. Their reviews on their website are very questionable. To me they seem forged, but I could be wrong.
And it may not even be that they are "unhealthy." It is the genetic issue with the improbability of determining original line data or if it is a hybrid (even the ones not on sig lines could be hybridized…). 
But honestly, if they really had 6,000 frogs (which I HIGHLY doubt), do you really think that they have proper husbandry practices? You would need a warehouse (quite literally) to house them all. Even then I just can't imagine. Maybe they do, who knows? All I can say is that they have proven to lie about a lot of issues (even in the beginning), and now I just don't think that their "customers" (if they have any) would have much to say if anything at all.
Sorry for ranting.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Although in saying that, there is a portion of me that REALLY hopes that Rick and Dillon are threatening to kill their workers and their families unless they produce more and better frogs.
> 
> Dart frog inspired genocides.


Lovely, just what we need


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Have you read the first thread? If you have only read this companion thread, you miss out on some crucial (IMO) information. And more specifically to your post, it's really hard to tell because:
A. I don't think anyone would admit to buying their frogs right now.
B. Their reviews on their website are very questionable. To me they seem forged, but I could be wrong.
And it may not even be that they are "unhealthy." It is the genetic issue with the improbability of determining original line data or if it is a hybrid (even the ones not on sig lines could be hybridized…). 
But honestly, if they really had 6,000 frogs (which I HIGHLY doubt), do you really think that they have proper husbandry practices? You would need a warehouse (quite literally) to house them all. Even then I just can't imagine. Maybe they do, who knows? All I can say is that they have proven to lie about a lot of issues (even in the beginning), and now I just don't think that their "customers" (if they have any) would have much to say if anything at all.
Sorry for ranting.[/QUOTE]


I did.

I agree that they reviews they post on their website may possibly be forged. The thing is, nobody knows but them.

I meant REAL people.

I think owning up to what others may feel is a mistake is a noble thing. 

It is part of being an adult, making mistakes and moving on.

Right?


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Someone needs to report this to the onion and try and get them to do a story on the mass slaughterings in Tennessee frog breeding sweatshops.

That would bring some REAL attention to the issue at hand.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

A big problem that some people may have, and even I have at times, is finding a niche in the hobby we are in.

Lets be honest, this is a VERY niche hobby and some of the people in it can be complete elitists.

A perfect example of this was when i went to a reptile show over the weekend in Maryland. I went to buy a bunch of frogs actually. There was a guy there with a large table full of very nice frogs quite a few of which would have come home with me over the weekend...

Would have...

I approached this guys table 4 different times and could not even get him to acknowledge me. 

He may have been the nicest guy and best frog husbandry guy around, but if you won't even say hello when I approach your table (mind you, he wasn't doing anything any time i walked up) then there is NO WAY I am going to give you my money.

If you don't respect me enough to acknowledge me then I am damn certain that if for some reason I have questions for you post-purchase you will be nowhere to be found.

So really what I think part of what Rick may be doing is filling a gap amongst other things.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Don`t feed the troll


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I am not certain comments like that help your case though.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Very valid point. I think comparing them to diamonds, although a bit of a stretch, is also very apt.
> 
> Although in saying that, there is a portion of me that REALLY hopes that Rick and Dillon are threatening to kill their workers and their families unless they produce more and better frogs.
> 
> Dart frog inspired genocides.
> 
> So what you are saying is instead of buying SAFE frogs we all need to buy CONFLICT FREE frogs?


Admittedly it is a bit dramatic, but I think the basic argument is the same. Their frogs are kinda becoming the conflict diamonds/frogs of our hobby. The source is tainted, so the product is tainted.

Hell they'll probably try to trademark "conflict frog", or "conflict free frogs" and use that as a selling point. 

Maybe their slogan will be something like this...
*"We don't conscript children at gun point to raise our frogs, they're our kids... they have to do what we say or we'll ground them!... So buy with a clear conscience!!!"*

Oh another example might be the walmart vs mainstreet conflict. Sure walmart has good prices and does provide jobs, but they pay their workers crap and outcompete local businesses etc..etc..etc... Basically the ethics, morals and actions of the source taint the product again and inspire a boycott (in some people's minds... I'm less inclined to stay out of walmart then I am to stay the hell away from these people and their frogs).


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So Dr., Have you been able to find a customer in the first place? Maybe what one or two? Most people are reluctant to admit they purchased anything from those clowns.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I completely agree Dave. 

Quality, Reliability, and Honesty are the only things that make a business succeed.

Luck has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



PDFanatic said:


> So Dr., Have you been able to find a customer in the first place? Maybe what one or two? Most people are reluctant to admit they purchased anything from those clowns.


To be honest I wouldn't know how to go about it.

I sifted through tons of threads on here and have not found a single one.

I am certainly not saying this board is the end all to end all, but out of 100s of threads I haven't found any.

So maybe that says something.


----------



## Tyler Jones

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I am not certain comments like that help your case though.


I'm pretty sure they do.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

How is calling me a "troll" (I don't even know what that means) when I am trying to gather information and make an educated decision on a topic help a situation?

You may have to explain that one...


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> To be honest I wouldn't know how to go about it.
> 
> I sifted through tons of threads on here and have not found a single one.
> 
> I am certainly not saying this board is the end all to end all, but out of 100s of threads I haven't found any.
> 
> So maybe that says something.


I agree, I have no idea how anyone would find that information. It's not like they are going to blatantly state it (unless they haven't heard about it I guess, even then). I have tried looking through threads as well.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Don`t feed the troll


I don't think he's trolling. I just think he wants a better understanding of why we all are so adamantly opposed to these people. Honestly In my first year in the hobby if this would have happened and I was a spectator, I'd probably be like... "why do these people have their panties in such a twist over one dude selling hybrids?"

...But after years in the hobby, getting to know the crowd here and the changes that have occurred in how I perceive and am perceived by people in the hobby, it is all much easier for me to quickly grasp and even get into it with these people. As I've said many times the culture here is a bit different then many are used to in other hobbies, sometimes it is hard to understand and/or adapt to quickly. 

Anyways I encourage some devil's advocate. I think we have more then enough valid points against these people that playing that game will only strengthen our case.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That is what I am saying.

If they have 6000 frogs and they produce TONS certainly they end up somewhere.

If nobody can find proof of any being sold...ever, then that certainly raises a whole bunch of questions.


----------



## Tyler Jones

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> How is calling me a "troll" (I don't even know what that means) when I am trying to gather information and make an educated decision on a topic help a situation?
> 
> You may have to explain that one...


I think he was using the word "troll" as a term of endearment. A Dr. should know that.....


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Debating is what educated people do.

You learn as much about a situation as you can and discuss all the finer points.

Just saying "you're an idiot" is not constructive.

I have not been on this board long.

I came here to learn.

When you insult me it makes me feel like this is not a place where one can learn things.

Its as simple as that.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Debating is what educated people do.
> 
> You learn as much about a situation as you can and discuss all the finer points.
> 
> Just saying "you're an idiot" is not constructive.
> 
> I have not been on this board long.
> 
> I came here to learn.
> 
> When you insult me it makes me feel like this is not a place where one can learn things.
> 
> Its as simple as that.


I agree, and ultimately I think our cause is better served by a healthy debate and fleshing out exactly why people should shun this business and their practices rather then just coming off like a witch hunt. We have really good reasons to be against these people, and it is easy to let our passions get the best of us.

We have a just cause IMO, let's try to make it look like what it is, rather then get to defensive when someone questions our position. What seems obvious to us, isn't always obvious to others... Whether they are justified or not in their difference of opinion, or lack of being as sure as we are, winning those hearts and minds helps our cause. *Every devil's advocate we scare away is a potential customer for the enemy 

*


----------



## Tyler Jones

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Debating is what educated people do.
> 
> You learn as much about a situation as you can and discuss all the finer points.
> 
> Just saying "you're an idiot" is not constructive.
> 
> I have not been on this board long.
> 
> I came here to learn.
> 
> When you insult me it makes me feel like this is not a place where one can learn things.
> 
> Its as simple as that.


I don't think anyone was calling you an idiot. Let's change gears here. Do you condone what Rick is doing/attempting to do in the hobby? 

As to your "elitist" commit earlier. I can't say that I have ran across a single person in the hobby that has an elitist mentality. That's not to say they aren't out there, just that I don't think we need a company like USdartfrog to fill the "niche" of the everyday common man/scientist/whatever they want to call themselves. 

That may just be me though.....


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I am not certain comments like that help your case though.


Oh really good doctor?

So making comments like killing peoples familes and genocide helps your case?
I`m a little curious as to how a "doctor" could make these comments.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Tyler Jones said:


> I don't think anyone was calling you an idiot. Let's change gears here. Do you condone what Rick is doing/attempting to do in the hobby?
> 
> As to your "elitist" commit earlier. I can't say that I have ran across a single person in the hobby that has an elitist mentality. That's not to say they aren't out there, just that I don't think we need a company like USdartfrog to fill the "niche" of the everyday common man/scientist/whatever they want to call themselves.
> 
> That may just be me though.....


I was trying to form an opinion based on fact.

I understand the frog hobby is very different from the rest of the reptile hobby. 

I got out of keeping a lot of animals due to all of the genetic abominations some people call "investments". 

So I believe I am on the same page in theory.

Trust me, ANY hobby is full of elitists, it is just one of those things.

There is a place for them in every hobby as well, I honestly believe that.

What is YOUR solution to the problem that they are causing?

Have you personally attempted to talk to them about your concerns?

I know others have and have been frustrated beyond belief. 

One thing we all have to remember, at one point NONE of us knew better...

We learned from our mistakes.

Wise people don't bash others, they don't need to. Truly wise people help educate others in a constructive manner.

I think it is all fine and dandy to complain on a forum but I think it would make a much greater difference to try and steer them into a better direction.

I have never met a person that was completely unreasonable, and I am divorced.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Oh really good doctor?
> 
> So making comments like killing peoples familes and genocide helps your case?
> I`m a little curious as to how a "doctor" could make these comments.


As per Wikipedia:

Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter gibe or taunt."[1][2] Sarcasm may employ ambivalence,[3] although sarcasm is not necessarily ironic.[4] "The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal inflections".[5] The sarcastic content of a statement will be dependent upon the context in which it appears.[6]

I don't work in medicine.

Also, perhaps you missed the "blood diamond" comments.

I have spent a lot of time in Africa working and studying so I know the subject well.

A lot of the areas where I have done field work are conflict regions.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I don't work in medicine.


And we can all breathe a sigh of relief for that.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Whoa.

That is kind of an awkward thing to say considering that you do not know me from a hole in the wall.

In fact, a lot of the work and research I have done has been antivenom research, saving lives.

I have also been handy in numerous snakebites throughout my career having saved more than one life by way of first aid.

I honestly never hope that a human life is put in your hands, I don't wish it upon anyone.

But then again, what do I know?

I am just a "doctor".

We all have back stories mate...


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> And we can all breathe a sigh of relief for that.


I'm not really sure what we're fighting about here? He's basically said that he agrees with most of our stance right?... Even if we don't all agree with everything he said, it seems he was just trying to get a better understanding. There should be a little room here for debate shouldn't there? ...I rather spend this time bashing Rick and Dillion's business, because I know they are in the wrong... I'm not so sure about the Dr 

P.S. The Dr has PM'd me a few times... I'm willing to vouch for him as far as his intentions being good. I think he may be someone we want to keep around... Just saying


----------



## MrBiggs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Oh another example might be the walmart vs mainstreet conflict. Sure walmart has good prices and does provide jobs, but they pay their workers crap and outcompete local businesses...


Woah, backup there! Wal-Mart does truly _outcompete_ other businesses and disliking them for that fact is simply bad thinking and/or anti-capitalistic. What Rick is doing is entirely different. So far as I'm aware (and to the point I think the good Dr. is trying to make) they aren't outcompeting _anyone_. If they were truly outcompeting the competition we'd have a MUCH larger problem on our hands. Instead, we're fortunate that the are blabbering idiots because blabbering idiots are far easier to contain than smart businesses like Wal-Mart.


----------



## Tyler Jones

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I was trying to form an opinion based on fact.
> 
> I understand the frog hobby is very different from the rest of the reptile hobby.
> 
> I got out of keeping a lot of animals due to all of the genetic abominations some people call "investments".
> 
> So I believe I am on the same page in theory.
> 
> Trust me, ANY hobby is full of elitists, it is just one of those things.
> 
> There is a place for them in every hobby as well, I honestly believe that.
> 
> What is YOUR solution to the problem that they are causing?
> 
> Have you personally attempted to talk to them about your concerns?
> 
> I know others have and have been frustrated beyond belief.
> 
> One thing we all have to remember, at one point NONE of us knew better...
> 
> We learned from our mistakes.
> 
> Wise people don't bash others, they don't need to. Truly wise people help educate others in a constructive manner.
> 
> I think it is all fine and dandy to complain on a forum but I think it would make a much greater difference to try and steer them into a better direction.
> 
> I have never met a person that was completely unreasonable, and I am divorced.


The thing is, I'm not sure you are even aware that what the crack team of scientist over at the Dartfrog Warehouse are doing is a problem. I'm also not sure these guys can be "educated" to change their husbandry practices. 

I still stand by my previous statement regarding your elitist comment. Stick around for a while and you may see what I mean.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MrBiggs said:


> Woah, backup there! Wal-Mart does truly _outcompete_ other businesses and disliking them for that fact is simply bad thinking and/or anti-capitalistic. What Rick is doing is entirely different. So far as I'm aware (and to the point I think the good Dr. is trying to make) they aren't outcompeting _anyone_. If they were truly outcompeting the competition we'd have a MUCH larger problem on our hands. Instead, we're fortunate that the are blabbering idiots because blabbering idiots are far easier to contain than smart businesses like Wal-Mart.


I wasn't so much using it as an example in the economic sense, but rather in the moral/ethical sense, where some people have a problem with the source for whatever reason, so in their mind the products from the source are tainted, and deserve a boycott. 

If rick/dillion could make a living selling cheap healthy frogs without going against the wishes of the community, creating hybrids, using sleazy business practices, editing his website content and going back on his word every 5 minutes, trying to make other breeders look bad, Trust them, and their intentions I'd be fine with him outcompeting some people.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MrBiggs said:


> Woah, backup there! Wal-Mart does truly _outcompete_ other businesses and disliking them for that fact is simply bad thinking and/or anti-capitalistic. What Rick is doing is entirely different. So far as I'm aware (and to the point I think the good Dr. is trying to make) they aren't outcompeting _anyone_. If they were truly outcompeting the competition we'd have a MUCH larger problem on our hands. Instead, we're fortunate that the are blabbering idiots because blabbering idiots are far easier to contain than smart businesses like Wal-Mart.


EXACTLY.

I think if they WERE adopting the walmart business model then yes, there may be reason for REAL concern.

But clearly if a large group of some of the best frog keepers in the world cannot find ONE SINGLE transaction then I think it shows what is ACTUALLY going on.

I am not impressed by sheer numbers in someones collection. It has been said before but the husbandry practices would slide downhill quickly. 

It is about QUALITY in the long term.

That's the bottom line here right? 

Quality animals.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Does anyone know of a single frog they have actually sold where the person who bought it was not happy with it?


Yes. I know at least two people, they've posted in the old thread, who now have specific concerns about the legitimacy of frogs they purchased from Dillion prior to the rollout of this farce. Both are really good hobbyists and I feel bad they got caught up in this.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Yes. I know at least two people, they've posted in the old thread, who now have specific concerns about the legitimacy of frogs they purchased from Dillion prior to the rollout of this farce. Both are really good hobbyists and I feel bad they got caught up in this.


YES!

Finally!

Okay so you say "they have concerns about the legitimacy of their frogs".

What does that mean exactly?

I am sitting here giggling thinking that someone ordered frogs from them and received origami frogs that Rick is trying to convince them are real frogs.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I`d like to apologize for the little side track. 
Dr McHale and I worked this out between ourselves.

Again sorry


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay working backwards here... 

People need to step back and take a deep breath. Things are getting a little too riled here. 



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> But clearly if a large group of some of the best frog keepers in the world cannot find ONE SINGLE transaction then I think it shows what is ACTUALLY going on.


This isn't really an accurate assessment of the problem. If you look over their website critically with an eye to the literature then you can see that they have made a number of invalid statements as well as very problematic assumptions. Too often people are focused on the whole renaming of established captive populations as well as their avowed statements about designer frogs/hybrids and that they will/won't produce them to look at the bigger picture. 
For example, the claims that their frogs are totally non-toxic and that it is safe for both the frog/person for the frogs to be handled. This is not correct and is a problem. 




Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I am not impressed by sheer numbers in someones collection. It has been said before but the husbandry practices would slide downhill quickly.


This rates a maybe. It all depends on how much capitalism has been sunk into automating the system. When I was working at a zoo, my regular area had over 100 enclosures and on a day when someone was absent I could be responsible for over a 1000 animals, yet I wouldn't claim that the animals husbandry was ignored. The more automation, the better able to handle large numbers. 
The problem comes in because their own claims on their website have fluctuated greatly. 




Dr Christopher McHale said:


> That's the bottom line here right?
> 
> Quality animals.


This is subjective. What I would consider a quality animal is probably going to differ from you or another person... As a hypothetical example, the vast majority of captive dendrobatids are obese generally grossly obese, those to me are not quality frogs. It isn't uncommon for a person to post a picture of a frog that isn't obese only to have a bunch of people comment on it being too thin.... 
I also don't consider frogs of potentially mixed locals to be quality... 


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> EXACTLY.
> 
> I think if they WERE adopting the walmart business model then yes, there may be reason for REAL concern.
> 
> But clearly if a large group of some of the best frog keepers in the world cannot find ONE SINGLE transaction then I think it shows what is ACTUALLY going on.
> 
> I am not impressed by sheer numbers in someones collection. It has been said before but the husbandry practices would slide downhill quickly.
> 
> It is about QUALITY in the long term.
> 
> That's the bottom line here right?
> 
> Quality animals.


Well to some extent they have tried undercutting prices and leveraging their supposed large inventory to try and lure people into giving them a chance even with the drama going on. That seems kinda like Walmart/retail sales tactics in general. 

For DFW/usdartfrog etc..etc.. The commercial scale of their business makes them a real potential threat to the integrity of animals in the hobby, and their flagrant lack of respect of standard operating procedures without good cause is distasteful in my opinion. 

Frankly though my problem isn't with the economics and I don't really care that much about the walmart debate, I just thought some of that mirrored what was happening here, oh and I know it sucked working there!


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This rates a maybe. It all depends on how much capitalism has been sunk into automating the system. When I was working at a zoo, my regular area had over 100 enclosures and on a day when someone was absent I could be responsible for over a 1000 animals, yet I wouldn't claim that the animals husbandry was ignored. The more automation, the better able to handle large numbers. 
The problem comes in because their own claims on their website have fluctuated greatly.

I agree with you on this.

I was the head curator of the largest and most diverse collection on the continent of africa and is all about HOW you organize your work. Yes. But the difference between 1000 animals and 6000 is quite great as well.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> This isn't really an accurate assessment of the problem. If you look over their website critically with an eye to the literature then you can see that they have made a number of invalid statements as well as very problematic assumptions. Too often people are focused on the whole renaming of established captive populations as well as their avowed statements about designer frogs/hybrids and that they will/won't produce them to look at the bigger picture.
> For example, the claims that their frogs are totally non-toxic and that it is safe for both the frog/person for the frogs to be handled. This is not correct and is a problem.
> 
> 
> This is subjective. What I would consider a quality animal is probably going to differ from you or another person... As a hypothetical example, the vast majority of captive dendrobatids are obese generally grossly obese, those to me are not quality frogs. It isn't uncommon for a person to post a picture of a frog that isn't obese only to have a bunch of people comment on it being too thin....
> I also don't consider frogs of potentially mixed locals to be quality...
> 
> 
> 
> Ed


I do agree with you 100% on this and I have never debated this with anyone actually. Because frankly, I think its an incorrect claim to make.

I understand that animals whose lineage is not pure are known to not be quality animals. They openly admit that they do mix their animals. So by default, I will have to concur that they are not desirable.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> What is YOUR solution to the problem that they are causing?
> 
> Have you personally attempted to talk to them about your concerns?
> 
> I know others have and have been frustrated beyond belief.


There are several factors at play here.. The thread about these people was started because of their gross misinterpretation of facts and science for their own agenda. It then escalated because they made the announcement that they were choosing to cross localities and sell mixed local frogs and frogs from mixed localities as a product. This raised a lot of hackles for several reasons. 
The first that many of the imports are from specific localities and new genetic material is not only unlikely to ever be reimported but often the original locality is unknown. This when added to the fact that issues with outbreeding depression is known to occur in frogs (both within a species and between a species), it begins to give people concern. It is not uncommon for a person to pick up a frog from someone and then try to get it assigned to a specific captive population based solely on visual phenotype. The problem with this is that this can then result in frogs from different populations being crossed.. 

To some extent, this is also a self inflicted problem. In the last ten years there were two seperate attempts made to enable the hobby to track not only individual frogs but populations of frogs for everything from degree of kinship to total number produced in a year. Both of these attempts fell flat due to lack of interest on the part of the hobby at large. As a result, they now have to fight a rearguard action to keep specific populations sustainable. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Well to some extent they have tried undercutting prices and leveraging their supposed large inventory to try and lure people into giving them a chance even with the drama going on. That seems kinda like Walmart/retail sales tactics in general.
> 
> For DFW/usdartfrog etc..etc.. The commercial scale of their business makes them a real potential threat to the integrity of animals in the hobby, and their flagrant lack of respect of standard operating procedures without good cause is distasteful in my opinion.
> 
> Frankly though my problem isn't with the economics and I don't really care that much about the walmart debate, I just thought some of that mirrored what was happening here, oh and I know it sucked working there!


I agree. 

I have no qualms whatsoever with someone making an honest buck.

I also think that if your competition is lacking and you can pick up the slack...great.

But HONEST is the key word.

If someone is less than honest about their business practices it makes me turn my head.

I do believe there are a lot of dodgy things going on over there but I wanted to try and see for myself how much of it is based on fact and not "lost in translation".


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> There are several factors at play here.. The thread about these people was started because of their gross misinterpretation of facts and science for their own agenda. It then escalated because they made the announcement that they were choosing to cross localities and sell mixed local frogs and frogs from mixed localities as a product. This raised a lot of hackles for several reasons.
> The first that many of the imports are from specific localities and new genetic material is not only unlikely to ever be reimported but often the original locality is unknown. This when added to the fact that issues with outbreeding depression is known to occur in frogs (both within a species and between a species), it begins to give people concern. It is not uncommon for a person to pick up a frog from someone and then try to get it assigned to a specific captive population based solely on visual phenotype. The problem with this is that this can then result in frogs from different populations being crossed..
> 
> To some extent, this is also a self inflicted problem. In the last ten years there were two seperate attempts made to enable the hobby to track not only individual frogs but populations of frogs for everything from degree of kinship to total number produced in a year. Both of these attempts fell flat due to lack of interest on the part of the hobby at large. As a result, they now have to fight a rearguard action to keep specific populations sustainable.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


When you say "keep track of frogs" do you mean something like a studbook or more like how some ball pythons used to come with paperwork "verifying" their genetics?


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I was the head curator of the largest and most diverse collection on the continent of africa and is all about HOW you organize your work. Yes. But the difference between 1000 animals and 6000 is quite great as well.


Several times, I had my area up to well over 1000 animals in my section alone. This was due to tadpoles. Depending on how the tadpoles are managed the amount of work could be significantly less than what would be required for even half that number of adult amphibians. 

For example, if they set up a flow through system like that often used for Ceratophrys tadpoles, the amount of work is significantly reduced. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> When you say "keep track of frogs" do you mean something like a studbook or more like how some ball pythons used to come with paperwork "verifying" their genetics?


Both. One of the options that fell by the wayside was the same software used by Zoos. That software would have been able to track all kinds of information ranging from the enclosures to mates to offspring to vet checks and so forth. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I understand it all too well actually.

Assembly line type set ups work well for things like that and I am all for it. 

I just figured that having 6000 animals to care for plus all of the packaging and shipping 52 weeks out of the year as they say would really put a cramp on your productivity when it came to husbandry.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Both. One of the options that fell by the wayside was the same software used by Zoos. That software would have been able to track all kinds of information ranging from the enclosures to mates to offspring to vet checks and so forth.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


The idea sounds amazing.

The cataloging would be a nightmare in the beginning stages but once done could be useful.

It would need to be a VERY long spreadsheet.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> That is what I am saying.
> 
> If they have 6000 frogs and they produce TONS certainly they end up somewhere.
> 
> If nobody can find proof of any being sold...ever, then that certainly raises a whole bunch of questions.


I don't think anyone believes they've actually raised the number of frogs they claim to have raised. This is just more boasting designed to make the new and unsuspecting hobbyist think they know what they're doing when they don't.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

***Reminder: Personal attacks are NOT allowed on this thread or even this entire forum***

If you think someone is being a "Troll" contact a moderator about it or use the forum reporting system.

Attempting to call them out for it (especially when it isn't even true) will result in infractions/time off going forward.

Everybody needs to relax a bit and return this thread to being informative... and away from the baseless accusations against other members. We were doing well for a while.... don't make the mods regret letting this thread go...


----------



## Tyler Jones

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Has anyone been to their establishment? I heard through the grapevine that Rick and Dillon were supposed be at a show vending (don't know which one) but never heard if that was true. Just curious.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I agree.
> 
> I have no qualms whatsoever with someone making an honest buck.
> 
> I also think that if your competition is lacking and you can pick up the slack...great.
> 
> But HONEST is the key word.
> 
> If someone is less than honest about their business practices it makes me turn my head.
> 
> I do believe there are a lot of dodgy things going on over there but I wanted to try and see for myself how much of it is based on fact and not "lost in translation".


One thing that I'm not sure you're aware of is that their original business plan it seems was to just be wholesale supply for pet stores, especially chains like petco/petsmart. This apparently failed.


...and then they tried to sell to us, but they kinda let slip the hybrid plans and that along with their sleazy tactics, not adequately addressing our concerns and stupid trademarking of everything under the sun kinda pissed everyone off. 

...Then they tried to distance themselves from the hobby, cater to the most uninformed nooby customer base that wouldn't know better then to not buy into their BS, or the people who just wanted cheap frogs, and then ultimately decided they needed to fill the Designer dart niche that the majority of the hobby community has been adamantly opposed to 

It is this track record of basically doing exactly what they want after we've practically begged them not to and then attempting to force it on us all for their own fun and profit that has us all pretty PO'd ...because it will impact us even if we don't personally buy frogs from them.

I think that is the message that they don't get, or don't care about... What they do is going to effect us, all of us... and in what most here consider a negative way, but they are going to try to shove it down our throats all the same, because we are wrong and they are right... In their minds. 

So for the fun and profit of Rick/Dillon and the family, screw everyone else basically seems to be the business plan. They are going to try to drag us all kicking and screaming into their own personal Eden of a dart frog hobby... something that resembles the Cluster Fudge of the designer gecko and snake hobbies. *So for the selfish desires of like 2-6 people, the rest of us can suck it... Not an awesome example to set for others, IMO.*


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> YES!
> 
> Finally!
> 
> Okay so you say "they have concerns about the legitimacy of their frogs".
> 
> What does that mean exactly?
> 
> I am sitting here giggling thinking that someone ordered frogs from them and received origami frogs that Rick is trying to convince them are real frogs.


It means they purchased frogs that were advertised as being a certain locale, morphe, but, do to the serious lack of reputation and dishonesty of the Wascher's, they cannot confidently accept their words that these frogs are what the Wascher's say they are.

In this hobby, reputation and who you get you frogs from are very important. With the arrival of the Wascher's on the scene, now more so than ever.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Several times, I had my area up to well over 1000 animals in my section alone. This was due to tadpoles. Depending on how the tadpoles are managed the amount of work could be significantly less than what would be required for even half that number of adult amphibians.
> 
> For example, if they set up a flow through system like that often used for Ceratophrys tadpoles, the amount of work is significantly reduced.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


But we know they DONT do this. Darbie sets up the tadpole cups.


----------



## MrBiggs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Well to some extent they have tried undercutting prices and leveraging their supposed large inventory to try and lure people into giving them a chance even with the drama going on. That seems kinda like Walmart/retail sales tactics in general.


Business leverage is NOT wrong, though. It's all the misinformation, outright deception, and other shady business that's the problem. Simply capitalizing on business size shouldn't be thought of as one of the problems in need of addressing.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MrBiggs said:


> Business leverage is NOT wrong, though. It's all the misinformation, outright deception, and other shady business that's the problem. Simply capitalizing on business size shouldn't be thought of as one of the problems in need of addressing.


I'm not saying it is (but there are some here that feel selling darts far below what you could get for them devalues them)... I'm saying that people having a problem with walmart's practices led to outrage and boycotts of their products... Same thing with DFW and their frogs. Whatever I said about walmart was just a quick, dirty and half assed explanation of the situation with them, and how it was similar IMO to our issues with DFW/usdartfrog. I guess I should have stuck with the blood diamonds and conflict frogs analogy


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Yes. I know at least two people, they've posted in the old thread, who now have specific concerns about the legitimacy of frogs they purchased from Dillion prior to the rollout of this farce. Both are really good hobbyists and I feel bad they got caught up in this.


I thought those people were people that sold their frogs to them years ago, not people that bought them? I guess I missed that.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> One thing that I'm not sure you're aware of is that their original business plan it seems was to just be wholesale supply for pet stores, especially chains like petco/petsmart. This apparently failed.
> 
> 
> ...and then they tried to sell to us, but they kinda let slip the hybrid plans and that along with their sleazy tactics, not adequately addressing our concerns and stupid trademarking of everything under the sun kinda pissed everyone off.
> 
> ...Then they tried to distance themselves from the hobby, cater to the most uninformed nooby customer base that wouldn't know better then to not buy into their BS, or the people who just wanted cheap frogs, and then ultimately decided they needed to fill the Designer dart niche that the majority of the hobby community has been adamantly opposed to
> 
> It is this track record of basically doing exactly what they want after we've practically begged them not to and then attempting to force it on us all for their own fun and profit that has us all pretty PO'd ...because it will impact us even if we don't personally buy frogs from them.
> 
> I think that is the message that they don't get, or don't care about... What they do is going to effect us, all of us... and in what most here consider a negative way, but they are going to try to shove it down our throats all the same, because we are wrong and they are right... In their minds.
> 
> So for the fun and profit of Rick/Dillon and the family, screw everyone else basically seems to be the business plan. They are going to try to drag us all kicking and screaming into their own personal Eden of a dart frog hobby... something that resembles the Cluster Fudge of the designer gecko and snake hobbies. *So for the selfish desires of like 2-6 people, the rest of us can suck it... Not an awesome example to set for others, IMO.*


Don't forget to mention the knock on Allen Repashy's supplements with their own special blend in the works.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I just figured that having 6000 animals to care for plus all of the packaging and shipping 52 weeks out of the year as they say would really put a cramp on your productivity when it came to husbandry.


Especially for 4 people, 2 of which ought to be in school.

One other thing that factors into the ire, Dr. McHale, is that based on the trademarks, arguments and selective expert quotes that have become their rhetoric, the hobby figured out very early on that they would be crossbreeding. DFW likely saw a niche that is very popular in other animal communities, and thought they would make a killing by filling that it. As a hobby, we repeatedly, here and in emails, explained why that wasn't a great idea and they repeatedly denied that crossbreeding was their aim. Then suddenly it was.

That dishonesty, combined with claims of being the industry experts (with only 2 years in), combined with really misleading psuedoscience, combined with some seriously sleazy twisting of facts in just about every paragraph of their site, has got people upset. We've seen sellers do all these things, but never to this degree and with such a (seemingly) large scale operation. 

They will fold eventually (unless they completely change business direction and somehow shake the stigma) because the business plan in unsustainable. They completely misread the customer base, which is why they are trying to create a new customer base out of the uninformed. The problem is, because of their (seeming) size and because of the money they've dumped into this operation they have some momentum and could conceivably do much more damage to the hobby than a typical hobbyist. 

As to your question about them producing healthy frogs, they probably are healthy, barring any novel pathogen issue. It's not hard to produce a healthy frog, especially tincs, even with overcrowding issues.

As to your question about who is buying these frogs...that's a good question. I was looking at the site the other day and saw they were selling 4-month-olds for $20. That's wholesale prices. I very much suspect that the vast majority of their sales are to pet stores at wholesale prices. I don't think that was the initial plan, but I think that's how it's currently working. 

Hopefully that will mark the beginning of the end for DFW.

*Just saw Dendrodave said most of this stuff a few posts up. Sorry for the repeat.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> It means they purchased frogs that were advertised as being a certain locale, morphe, but, do to the serious lack of reputation and dishonesty of the Wascher's, they cannot confidently accept their words that these frogs are what the Wascher's say they are.
> 
> In this hobby, reputation and who you get you frogs from are very important. With the arrival of the Wascher's on the scene, now more so than ever.


Is there a way to identify these visually?

I know that different frogs can look the same and there can be subtle differences.

But are these specimens that CAN be identified otherwise?


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Especially for 4 people, 2 of which ought to be in school.
> 
> One other thing that factors into the ire, Dr. McHale, is that based on the trademarks, arguments and selective expert quotes that have become their rhetoric, the hobby figured out very early on that they would be crossbreeding. DFW likely saw a niche that is very popular in other animal communities, and thought they would make a killing by filling that it. As a hobby, we repeatedly, here and in emails, explained why that wasn't a great idea and they repeatedly denied that crossbreeding was their aim. Then suddenly it was.
> 
> That dishonesty, combined with claims of being the industry experts (with only 2 years in), combined with really misleading psuedoscience, combined with some seriously sleazy twisting of facts in just about every paragraph of their site, has got people upset. We've seen sellers do all these things, but never to this degree and with such a (seemingly) large scale operation.
> 
> They will fold eventually (unless they completely change business direction and somehow shake the stigma) because the business plan in unsustainable. They completely misread the customer base, which is why they are trying to create a new customer base out of the uninformed. The problem is, because of their (seeming) size and because of the money they've dumped into this operation they have some momentum and could conceivably do much more damage to the hobby than a typical hobbyist.
> 
> As to your question about them producing healthy frogs, they probably are healthy, barring any novel pathogen issue. It's not hard to produce a healthy frog, especially tincs, even with overcrowding issues.
> 
> As to your question about who is buying these frogs...that's a good question. I was looking at the site the other day and saw they were selling 4-month-olds for $20. That's wholesale prices. I very much suspect that the vast majority of their sales are to pet stores at wholesale prices. I don't think that was the initial plan, but I think that's how it's currently working.
> 
> Hopefully that will mark the beginning of the end for DFW.
> 
> *Just saw Dendrodave said most of this stuff a few posts up. Sorry for the repeat.


Thank you for your post.

I understand the main issue at hand. 

I think that what a lot of this has snowballed from what me trying to find out if ANYONE had any actual dealings with them apart from some words here and threre.

The numbers seem to be almost nonexistant and would almost seem not worth it be producing the amount of frogs that they claim.

I remember people commenting on pictures of their facility and how it was actually a very nice set up. 

Does anyone have a link to these photos by chance?


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> Don't forget to mention the knock on Allen Repashy's supplements with their own special blend in the works.


I think everyone should pass the torch at some point, but it should go to has worked the hardest and best.

I can only hope that all of the people we teach and spread knowledge to can one day become smarter than us.

We have the power to do that.

A lot of people swear by Rephashy diets, and I have no doubt that they are amazing. Unfortunately, all of the rhacodactylus I have given it to do not like it. I am not certain why, but it is just a fact I accepted. 

I will wish anyone the best of luck when it comes to developing new methods for doing things but hard work ALWAYS prevails.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> The numbers seem to be almost nonexistant and would almost seem not worth it be producing the amount of frogs that they claim.


That's the rub. We're all seeing the same thing you are...a company that claims to have tons of frogs at cut rate prices and none of us have ever heard of someone buying from them. Dendroboard isn't the entire PDF community by any means so there is more of a hobby market out there, but I'll be damned if I can figure out who they are selling frogs to. That's why I believe it's likely to be pet shops. Occasionally we have someone who has made a pet store purchase with no specific data and then posts a picture here asking what it is. It will be interesting to see if we start seeing a lot more of these.



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I remember people commenting on pictures of their facility and how it was actually a very nice set up.
> 
> Does anyone have a link to these photos by chance?


My understanding is that they wont allow any photos to be taken and that visitors have to sign a non-disclosure agreement when visiting. I would love to see any photos as well if they exist. I can't really get a handle on how much room is needed for 6000 frogs.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Is there a way to identify these visually?
> 
> I know that different frogs can look the same and there can be subtle differences.
> 
> But are these specimens that CAN be identified otherwise?


As you seem to be already aware, visual identification can be problematic, so ai would say no, they cannot be reliably identified. The only way to be sure what morph anyone has is thru careful purchasing and keeping track of lineage. 

Did the Wascher's do with with the frogs they sold? Maybe. Are they trustworthy or reliable? Hell no. I wouldn't put it past them to have produced some crosses that were not up to designer frog standards, but looked close enough to Morph X, so why not sell them as such.

They have no problem crossing two morphs to produce a frog that they think looks like naturally occurring morphs and jumping to the conclusion that they have produced the same thing. Based on their previous lies and dishonesty I have zero faith in their ethics to not sell frogs that are not what they claim they are.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> That's the rub. We're all seeing the same thing you are...a company that claims to have tons of frogs at cut rate prices and none of us have ever heard of someone buying from them. Dendroboard isn't the entire PDF community by any means so there is more of a hobby market out there, but I'll be damned if I can figure out who they are selling frogs to. That's why I believe it's likely to be pet shops. Occasionally we have someone who has made a pet store purchase with no specific data and then posts a picture here asking what it is. It will be interesting to see if we start seeing a lot more of these.
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding is that they wont allow any photos to be taken and that visitors have to sign a non-disclosure agreement when visiting. I would love to see any photos as well if they exist. I can't really get a handle on how much room is needed for 6000 frogs.



You're right in that this isn't the entirety of the community, of course. BUT when I was looking around before there were just over 500 people online at the moment.

500 people out of a VERY small subculture and NOBODY has bought from them.

If I had a facility where I could house 6000 frogs and I was a huge producer of amazing quality animals I would love NOTHING more than people wanting to take pictures and show off all the amazing set ups I have and some of the amazing projects I am working on.

That's just me though.

I have been cagey about some of my breeding projects before but I have never completely ruled out anyone viewing or discussing the other things I have.

I mean, it seems reasonable from my point of view.

We are all collectors so we love showing off our collections.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I think everyone should pass the torch at some point, but it should go to has worked the hardest and best.
> 
> I can only hope that all of the people we teach and spread knowledge to can one day become smarter than us.
> 
> We have the power to do that.
> 
> A lot of people swear by Rephashy diets, and I have no doubt that they are amazing. Unfortunately, all of the rhacodactylus I have given it to do not like it. I am not certain why, but it is just a fact I accepted.
> 
> I will wish anyone the best of luck when it comes to developing new methods for doing things but hard work ALWAYS prevails.


Their problem with Repashy supplements stems for a complete lack of understanding of the proper use of supplements in general. Specifically they claim that the statements by Repashy and hobbyists not to reuse the left over supplements after dusting, proves the product is ineffective.

This tells me two things, both of which I have previously pointed out.

1.) They are not using the product properly. When used correctly, their is very little waste. I posted pics of my waste after having fed out, 18 Vivs, and 2 dozen froglet growouts and it was less than 1/4 tsp, most of which was Shake from fly parts, casings, etc and not actually repashy product.

2.) They're clues less as to why the waste fraction is ineffective and shouldn't be reused. This goes to the core nature of any vitamin supplement. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of the science involved knows why.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Especially for 4 people, 2 of which ought to be in school.
> 
> One other thing that factors into the ire, Dr. McHale, is that based on the trademarks, arguments and selective expert quotes that have become their rhetoric, the hobby figured out very early on that they would be crossbreeding. DFW likely saw a niche that is very popular in other animal communities, and thought they would make a killing by filling that it. As a hobby, we repeatedly, here and in emails, explained why that wasn't a great idea and they repeatedly denied that crossbreeding was their aim. Then suddenly it was.
> 
> That dishonesty, combined with claims of being the industry experts (with only 2 years in), combined with really misleading psuedoscience, combined with some seriously sleazy twisting of facts in just about every paragraph of their site, has got people upset. We've seen sellers do all these things, but never to this degree and with such a (seemingly) large scale operation.
> 
> They will fold eventually (unless they completely change business direction and somehow shake the stigma) because the business plan in unsustainable. They completely misread the customer base, which is why they are trying to create a new customer base out of the uninformed. The problem is, because of their (seeming) size and because of the money they've dumped into this operation they have some momentum and could conceivably do much more damage to the hobby than a typical hobbyist.
> 
> As to your question about them producing healthy frogs, they probably are healthy, barring any novel pathogen issue. It's not hard to produce a healthy frog, especially tincs, even with overcrowding issues.
> 
> As to your question about who is buying these frogs...that's a good question. I was looking at the site the other day and saw they were selling 4-month-olds for $20. That's wholesale prices. I very much suspect that the vast majority of their sales are to pet stores at wholesale prices. I don't think that was the initial plan, but I think that's how it's currently working.
> 
> Hopefully that will mark the beginning of the end for DFW.
> 
> *Just saw Dendrodave said most of this stuff a few posts up. Sorry for the repeat.


Nah that was well written, good post  ...I thought they had stated though when they came on the scene that they had planned to sell to chain stores, and that was part of the reasoning behind the SAFE trademark, because their "research" showed that the "poison" stigma was what was holding back dart frogs from sweeping the nation or something. 

Oh and don't we have some fairly reliable reports that some of the big flippers have been buying their stock wholesale and selling it at shows online and on Kingsnake, etc...etc... ???



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> Is there a way to identify these visually?
> 
> I know that different frogs can look the same and there can be subtle differences.
> 
> But are these specimens that CAN be identified otherwise?


Probably not with enough confidence to make the majority of people comfortable. In some instances of hybrids you can be fairly sure it is hybrid, but not always because these lil guys throw some strange looking offspring every so often. Of course this "polymorphism" is basically their whole justification for it being cool to create designer frogs.



ZookeeperDoug said:


> As you seem to be already aware, visual identification can be problematic, so ai would say no, they cannot be reliably identified. The only way to be sure what morph anyone has is thru careful purchasing and keeping track of lineage.
> 
> Did the Wascher's do with with the frogs they sold? Maybe. Are they trustworthy or reliable? Hell no. I wouldn't put it past them to have produced some crosses that were not up to designer frog standards, but looked close enough to Morph X, so why not sell them as such.
> 
> They have no problem crossing two morphs to produce a frog that they think looks like naturally occurring morphs and jumping to the conclusion that they have produced the same thing. Based on their previous lies and dishonesty I have zero faith in their ethics to not sell frogs that are not what they claim they are.


Exactly... I've proven "observationally" that these people are all about the money, and screw the hobby community. You see it is true because I typed it on the internet... *Magic!" 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Their problem with Repashy supplements stems for a complete lack of understanding of the proper use of supplements in general. Specifically they claim that the statements by Repashy and hobbyists not to reuse the left over supplements after dusting, proves the product is ineffective.
> 
> This tells me two things, both of which I have previously pointed out.
> 
> 1.) They are not using the product properly. When used correctly, their is very little waste. I posted pics of my waste after having fed out, 18 Vivs, and 2 dozen froglet growouts and it was less than 1/4 tsp, most of which was Shake from fly parts, casings, etc and not actually repashy product.
> 
> 2.) They're clues less as to why the waste fraction is ineffective and shouldn't be reused. This goes to the core nature of any vitamin supplement. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of the science involved knows why.


Uh ya, it's probably just larger particles and/or some clumping from moisture. You keep getting enough to dust flies out the left over for quite awhile. I highly doubt Repashy is paying for and shipping us bags of inert filler material. I think actually he addressed the particle size in a post here way way back, but no idea where to find it.

This is right in line with their assertions that most frogs in the hobby are part hybrid anyways, most dealers are lying to us and trying to rip us off or part of a vast conspiracy, ect... etc... and their willingness to use other people's pics, and ride on the coat tails of other people's work... Class act all the way.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I will wish anyone the best of luck when it comes to developing new methods for doing things but hard work ALWAYS prevails.


The problem is that they don't seem to want to engage in the work to understand and develop the understanding around different issues including nutritional problems. This is evident in the way they are marketing their fruit fly media. It is clear that they not only don't clearly understand the issues with methyl paraben but what happens in a culture over time or what supplements are required. 


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> But we know they DONT do this. Darbie sets up the tadpole cups.



Doug,

If I remember correctly, there isn't anything to indicate that they aren't using a larger system or some degree of automation. For example, you could have a container with an overflow screened over and simply go around and pour water from a watering can to flush the cups. Any overflow from the cups could simply go out a bulkhead drain. I can think of a number of different automated style setups that require an initial cup set-up and this does include some of the common methods for rearing Ceratophrys species. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Something to think about, especially you Rick...

quoted directly from their dirty hybrid page GENESIS Ornamental Pet Frogs


Captive bred frogs live longer and are much more healthy than imported wild caught frogs...
so why deplete the jungles!


I'm wondering is "so why deplete the jungles!" ending with an explanation point on this page? Ricky, if you're using these stupid genesis frogs as an excuse to help save native populations, then why are you charging $170-230 PER FROG for those frogs? That's 5 to 10 times more than what the "classic" frogs sell for. Please think about how stupid this looks Rick. Why would someone want to buy a genesis frog you made for so much money when they could get a frog with tracked and reputable linage for up to 90% less?!?! Wouldn't that contribute to draining wild populations even faster? Why would I, or anyone, buy a genesis frog from you for a stupid amount of money when I can get a genuine tinc for 10% of what you're charging for something that isn't even a pure line frog? It should be the other way around, you should be selling them for 10 times LESS than what normal prices are to help out the wild populations. I need to stop typing before I get this thread closed...grrrrrrrrrr some people are so dumb.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This was bugging me so I called Rick again (901-491-9145) to ask him about this. He told me the reason they are charging so much more for their genesis frogs in order to protect the frogs in the jungle is because that's what they feel like charging right now. We talked about some other stuff too but Rick is not in a very chatty mood tonight so I wouldn't suggest anyone else calling him tonight  At one point he mentioned to me that their frogs are superior and I asked him how exactly and he just gave nervous chuckle of a response. I also figured since I've asked on here a few times if he tests their frogs for anything and he never replied, that asking the owner of safedartfrog directly would give me a good answer. all he said was no frog on earth will test negative for everything. Rick is very quick to get hostile and grumpy, he ended up hanging up on me. I guess I'll try again tomorrow or maybe in a couple of days when he's feeling better. If you guys want to call Rick at 901-491-9145 he can answer all of your questions that you would want to know about DFW, but he can't answer them very well and gets really angry and defensive. If I were you guys, instead of putting a comment on here for Rick to maybe or maybe not read, you should just call him at 901-491-9145 so he can answer all of your questions and you can get all of the facts straight directly from Rick and not chance getting anything lost in translation on here.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

We ask where do these frogs go? Who is buying them? Recently I visited a local owned pet store. They had several auratus that were very cheap. I asked them where they got them and why so cheap. The only thing they would tell me was a breeder. He also told me that if I was interested in another color they could ORDER them for me. These are the people buying them. They are out there and 'at least for me' they are close. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Maybe there is a good opportunity for some of the more knowledgeable and experienced members who have a passion for educating people to do a sort of Lunch and Learn type thing for petshops across the united states. I bet that if it was pitched correctly, a lot of businesses would sign up.

Obviously this would take considerable effort, but the sentiments of the people here are strong. It's not impossible that the right people could be collected, and the funds raised. This could go a long way to preventing companies like DFW gaining traction.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USDartFrog website said:


> We are the "new kids on the block" and we love these colorful frogs! We prove it in our care, variety, the number we have, our super cool designer variations that are only available from us, and the simple fact *our frogs are bigger for their age than the more famous frog sellers. Our frog pets are truly top quality and we offer them to you at affordable prices, much better than the old guys who say raising frogs is not for kids.* Sure mom and dad help out, but ALL of the frog breeding, feeding, and day-to-day care is done by us, and we love it!


LOL. Now we're just a bunch of old guys who apparently charge too much and raise puny frogs. Okay, guilty as charged. I'm old, I don't devalue the livings things which are in my care, and my frogs are not overly obese. I am not, however, a famous seller 

I've yet to see anyone on the forums say that raising frogs is not for kids. I for one think more kids should be doing it ... responsibly.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I do love how their designer frogs are only available from them. They advertise it like nobody can hybridize frogs. Sorry Dillon and Ricky boy but any idiot can slap a bunch of frogs together and create the mutts you do...YOU guys are the only ones who choose to sell that crap. I thought people were in business to make money?!? Because at this point there is no doubt in my mind that you are putting more money in that dump to keep the doors open than you're making.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They obviously haven't been to any zoos or else they would know there are a lot more of their "1 of a kinds"...unfortunately


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> LOL. Now we're just a bunch of old guys who apparently charge too much and raise puny frogs. Okay, guilty as charged. I'm old, I don't devalue the livings things which are in my care, and my frogs are not overly obese. I am not, however, a famous seller
> 
> I've yet to see anyone on the forums say that raising frogs is not for kids. I for one think more kids should be doing it ... responsibly.


Hell, I'm a teenager who keeps frogs responsibly (who would've known?). I know the difference between reputable people and assclowns who trademark every thought in their head.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"...our frogs are bigger for their age than the more famous frog sellers."

How could you possibly qualify that statement?


----------



## MrBiggs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> "...our frogs are bigger for their age than the more famous frog sellers."
> 
> How could you possibly qualify that statement?


And is it even necessarily a positive thing? My son is 4 and is about 35lbs. My niece is a month younger, less than an inch taller, and weighs 51lbs. Should her parents be proud that their daughter is bigger for her age?

(That analogy may be completely flawed, I really don't know whether it's beneficial for a frog to get bigger faster. Perhaps an expert will chime in?)


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MrBiggs said:


> And is it even necessarily a positive thing? My son is 4 and is about 35lbs. My niece is a month younger, less than an inch taller, and weighs 51lbs. Should her parents be proud that their daughter is bigger for her age?
> 
> (That analogy may be completely flawed, I really don't know whether it's beneficial for a frog to get bigger faster. Perhaps an expert will chime in?)


That's actually an interesting question, and I would love Ed to chime in on that. In the snake world, where I misspent my youth, you can power feed an animal and get them huge and breeding in no time. It's generally accepted, though, that it tends to shorten their lifespans. I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that proves that, but most breeders believe it anecdotally. 

Assuming the key to their perceived superior growth (it's not, and they wouldn't know it if it was) is heavy feeding, what are the health implications, if any? I've only had good results from heavily feeding froglets. I've never been able to get a froglet obese and they grow quickly, but when I look at my experience with snakes it makes me wonder.

Anyone care to comment during the off time before Rick posts something else ridiculous and we all have to say something?

Also, anyone can say any animal is any age. I could hold on to my frogs for 6 months and say they are 3-month-olds and that their size is a sign of superior breeding. It doesn't mean anything coming from these people.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Their reviews use very similar language. both to the site and one another. I know this has been brought up previously, but their reviews remind me of the ones on blackwater reptiles. 3rd party only please!


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What is really a bit hilarious is how they claim to be the ultimate dart frog experts, yet only own 4 species, all of which are known as easier to care for darts. I've been in the hobby for around the same amount of time that they have, and I own 2 species they do (or close enough terribs/bicolor). Do I know a thing or two about dart frogs? Yes. Am I an expert? Not even close. The idiocy required to be in a hobby for two years and claim to be the only person who knows anything worth a damn about it must be tremendous. LOL, really.

/rant


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> That's actually an interesting question, and I would love Ed to chime in on that. In the snake world, where I misspent my youth, you can power feed an animal and get them huge and breeding in no time. It's generally accepted, though, that it tends to shorten their lifespans. I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that proves that, but most breeders believe it anecdotally.


There are a lot of indications that across taxa, caloric intake is linked to lifespan. However, there are a number of potential things that can cause problems before we even get into the long-term consequences of high caloric diets. 
First off, high protein diets are a stressor on kidney function. If the animal has insufficient access to water (say water bowls go dry faster than expected or are missed) on a consistent basis then the animals can develop gout. This can severely impact organ function and result in death (I've seen this in a private collection of corn snakes post hibernation). 

Secondly, high caloric diets as with people result in fat deposits in the body cavity and result in a fatty liver. This reduces the ability of the liver to function properly and can also result in death. 





Boondoggle said:


> Assuming the key to their perceived superior growth (it's not, and they wouldn't know it if it was) is heavy feeding, what are the health implications, if any? I've only had good results from heavily feeding froglets. I've never been able to get a froglet obese and they grow quickly, but when I look at my experience with snakes it makes me wonder.


I'm willing to bet you that if you necropsied one of the froglets that was fed heavily you would find lots of fat deposits in the abdominal cavity. As with any other animal, excess caloric intake versus what is needed metabolically is going to result in fat deposits. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay, this is hilarious. On Joshsfrogs FaceBook feed, there is a picture of P. Bicolor "green leg". Of course, he is sure to call it SAFE. Take that! Lmao..

https://www.facebook.com/JoshsFrogs...53049666024/10152094304861025/?type=1&theater


----------



## cmooreinla

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> I was trying to form an opinion based on fact.
> 
> I understand the frog hobby is very different from the rest of the reptile hobby.
> 
> I got out of keeping a lot of animals due to all of the genetic abominations some people call "investments".
> 
> So I believe I am on the same page in theory.
> 
> Trust me, ANY hobby is full of elitists, it is just one of those things.
> 
> There is a place for them in every hobby as well, I honestly believe that.
> 
> What is YOUR solution to the problem that they are causing?
> 
> Have you personally attempted to talk to them about your concerns?
> 
> I know others have and have been frustrated beyond belief.
> 
> One thing we all have to remember, at one point NONE of us knew better...
> 
> We learned from our mistakes.
> 
> Wise people don't bash others, they don't need to. Truly wise people help educate others in a constructive manner.
> 
> I think it is all fine and dandy to complain on a forum but I think it would make a much greater difference to try and steer them into a better direction.
> 
> I have never met a person that was completely unreasonable, and I am divorced.




No doubt. Talk about beating a dead horse. I have been reading through 9 pages of comments regarding this guy and no matter what he does, he is bashed. One would think, who can find fault with helping kids with cancer but apparently, from what I read here, he did it for his own self serving reasons. If he blew his own head off, I feel there would be another 9 pages of comments that he didn't use the right bullets. This all looks so petty.
I'm sure now I will be trashed and many will continue regurgitating this same B.S. in an attempt to "help me understand" what you think I don't get. 
I understand most in the hobby are against crossbreeding, hybrids, ect. So don't buy from him. Period. Move on. I really doubt he is spending this much time thinking of you. 
When you find fault with every single thing a person does, it begins to look more like jealousy than anything. 
Someone new to the industry who appears to be successful must be more than some can take. 
Again, I am new to this hobby. Of 13 dart frogs, I purchased 11 from usdartfrog and I am very happy with all of them. The first 2 I bought was at a trade show. They were 6 months old. The ones I bought from him were 3 months old and already as large as the 6 month olds. I would say 10 of the 13 are much bolder than the first 2 I bought. Their colors are beautiful and they are all healthy. 
They were very helpful throught the whole order process and when I received my first frogs from them I left feedback. I was asked if it was okay to use my comments on the website. Only after my reply did the put up my comments. So I have to say I am happy all around with his service. 
Based on my own experiences with usdartfrog, I do not think he is the monster all of you are trying to make him out to be. 
As stated above, has anyone expressed their concerns and opinions to him? I personally have not found him to be that unreasonable. 

That's my 2 cents.
Now I'm off to feed my "mutts" and proud of it. Bash away.

Clyde


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

By what means are you judging that your frogs are healthy "Clyde"?


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cmooreinla said:


> Based on my own experiences with usdartfrog, I do not think he is the monster all of you are trying to make him out to be.
> As stated above, has anyone expressed their concerns and opinions to him? I personally have not found him to be that unreasonable.
> 
> That's my 2 cents.
> Now I'm off to feed my "mutts" and proud of it. Bash away.
> 
> Clyde


He's not a monster, just a guy using lies and misinformation to sell to the uninformed and discredit the reputable. I guess you didn't read the 2 complete posts (I don't blame you) because many of us have contacted him personally and many of his responses are recorded above. 

Enjoy your froggies, I'm sure they are beautiful. All we ask is that you please be very honest about where you purchased them when you're looking to unload froglets.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks for posting Clyde. I agree that some of the posts here are very nit-picky. I hope no one bashes you. They really don't have any reason to bash you just for posting your experiences.
If the problem could be solved by simply not buying from US Dart Frogs, that would be easy. The problem is, now no one can purchase from you either. Even though you were sold frogs as being a certain tinc or auratus morph, no one can really be sure that they are truly a valid morph or just a frog that "looks" like that morph. We can no longer trust people who bought frogs from pet stores because the pet stores may have purchased their frogs from Rick and Dillon. 
If they were just supplying frogs, bringing new people into the hobby and making a million dollars at it, people would be happy to have them around. The problem is they are marketing to the new frog enthusiast and supplying them with information that flies in the face of science and the dart hobby as a whole. In addition (and more importantly) they are polluting the gene pool and that affects everyone whether we buy frogs directly from them or not.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cmooreinla said:


> If he blew his own head off, I feel there would be another 9 pages of comments that he didn't use the right bullets.


I don`t think so.

I have zero sympathy for him. If he went about this the right way instead of spewing his 
B.S and so called "knowledge" for his own gain this wouldn`t be happening.
He changes that website on a daily basis and add`s the stupidest most childish banter I`ve ever heard.
He`s a grown man..he should know better.
I respect your opinion and you have every right to give it.
Enjoy your frogs.


----------



## cmooreinla

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



epiphytes etc. said:


> By what means are you judging that your frogs are healthy "Clyde"?


Exactly the type of response I was expecting. 

Well lets see,,,,,, I have had them for a few months now and they are all growing and have good appetites. They are very active. I have no reason to think otherwise. 

By what means are you judging that they are unhealthy "Jason" ?


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Clyde, so glad to see your enormous frogs are better than two from an unnameable source at a trade show. I bet they jump 4 feet too. Try buying from a reputable breeder on here and see what you get. I dunno just my .02¢. I'm sure they are more bold because dfw raised them. You never specified species of the 11 you bought from them and the 2 from the trade show. I bet that has nothing to do with it though. It must be the magic faerie dust dfw puts in their media that makes them larger, bolder, and just all around better than everyone else. Good luck with frogs that you can't provide info about lineage or origin on. I dunno I like to be able to provide any buyer or potential buyer as much information on who I bought my frogs from, lineage, age, import year, fecal/chytrid test results...etc etc etc. You will learn, it will take a few years and more than owning 13 frogs. I also don't give my money to compulsive liars, sociopaths and all around shady people. Good luck when in a year the glamour of dendrobates wears off and you try to unload those. Chances are you'll have to take a page out of Rick's book and lie about where you obtained them or learn how to humanely euthanize them. Something tells me people won't be beating down your door to buy them after you tell them the origin of those animals. Good luck to you though Clyde.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

How would you know that they are larger. You have only owned frogs for a few months. All of which were bought from a man who makes used car salesman shake their heads. A responsible breeder would have advised that you maybe not get 13 frogs right away. You haven't even learned if you are capable of long term care. Not to mention that you have just joined this site. To me that says that your mentor is the man who refuses to believe anything that those here have learned with decades of experience.
How about some pics of these great frogs and their enclosures. 


Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cmooreinla said:


> I really doubt he is spending this much time thinking of you.


He totally does lol. Anytime there's any kind of flaw pointed out on their website from this forum, it's fixed unusually fast. The couple of times I've called him at 901-491-9145, he's been very quick to mention what "the hobby" thinks even though it had nothing to do with the conversation. He's brought up Dendroboard members and yadda yadda yadda. I would imagine you heard about this page from him too. Rick spends a lot of time worrying about it but for some reason is a huge coward to actually answer anyone's questions. That's why he asked to get his or dillons acct shut off or banned or whatever he did. Dillon doesn't even have his own voice. Unfortunately, I cannot use the appropriate words to describe what kind of person Rick really is on here but it's pretty easy to fill in the blank. Enjoy your frogs Clyde. Welcome to DB by the way


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cmooreinla said:


> Exactly the type of response I was expecting.
> 
> Well lets see,,,,,, I have had them for a few months now and they are all growing and have good appetites. They are very active. I have no reason to think otherwise.
> 
> By what means are you judging that they are unhealthy "Jason" ?


Well hmm probably the fact that you obviously haven't tested them for viruses or disease. Honestly I doubt you know the first place to do so because I know the Waschers don't have their animals tested. They will learn as well, when their 10,000 frogs are wiped out in the blink of an eye from chytrid or ranavirus. Any good breeder would have told you about the dangers of bringing new frogs into your care. Also, what was the Waschers quarantine process they recommended to you?? This is going to be interesting...You are exactly the unsuspecting victim the Waschers are going to keep the doors open on!!


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



PDFanatic said:


> Well hmm probably the fact that you obviously haven't tested them for viruses or disease. Honestly I doubt you know the first place to do so because I know the Waschers don't have their animals tested. They will learn as well, when their 10,000 frogs are wiped out in the blink of an eye from chytrid or ranavirus. Any good breeder would have told you about the dangers of bringing new frogs into your care. Also, what was the Waschers quarantine process they recommended to you?? This is going to be interesting...You are exactly the unsuspecting victim the Waschers are going to keep the doors open on!!


If you recall from their site. They state that their frogs have no need to be quarantined. Their frogs are superior

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> If you recall from their site. They state that their frogs have no need to be quarantined. Their frogs are superior
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


Superior or not I bet they carry virus and parasites like every other animal on earth. But I'm sure its probably due to no methylparaben. Lmfao


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh good. I thought it might be because we use magnolia leaves and they don't.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> Oh good. I thought it might be because we use magnolia leaves and they don't.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


or sphagnum moss



USDartFRog website said:


> Sphagnum Moss - Mythbuster
> 
> 
> Sphagnum moss is very popular with froggers because it is soft and looks comfy when properly moist. When sphagnum moss is used as a top layer, however, the surface dries out easily, which makes it stick to the frog and actually draw moisture out of the frog. Very few things stress a frog out quicker than a bunch of dry moss stuck to it.
> When used as a sub-surface layer, it will have limited water-retaining properties and keep the humidity in the enclosure up for a time, but ultimately it will dry out. Overall, the only use for it would simply be to hold moisture, but there are materials that accomplish this much more efficiently. We prefer to use simple "water beads" for this purpose. They are made out the same safe, water absorbent polymer, and are commonly used in floral arrangements, and to hydrate plants or cut flowers. They are available from most craft stores or garden centers. (Sometimes sold in a crystal form as a soil amendment.)


US Dart Frog


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> the stupidest most childish banter I've ever heard.


This is the second discussion, that I'm aware of at least, on this forum. The first having gone over 100 pages I believe. And yet "he" is the one accused of childish banter. Hundreds of pages of mostly childish behavior. At first I didn't understand. Then I started to see the point. Now I think it has gone so far above and beyond that it is now bordering on the absolute ridiculous. If someone doesn't fall exactly in line with the thinking of the half dozen or so that are actively posting then they are absolutely attacked. That is hardly persuasive.

Like any of YOU would buy frogs from anyone that didn't have an absolute pedigree on them anyway! Please! Those of you that are serious breeders wouldn't buy frogs from Clyde anyway, or anyone you don't know that hasn't been part of your group for years and years. There is a difference between the hobbyist that just enjoys their frogs and the serious breeder, as many of you are. I know you think the reptile and aquarium hobbies have been polluted but there are two definitely different aspects to both. One is the hobby side in which the hobbyist has their tank full of mixed african cichlids, for example, and the other side that purchases and breeds location-specific Victorian or Tanganyikan Lake species and breeds for conservation purposes. Betta breeders have a similar circumstance. Some are breeding for the hobby and that spectacular showy fish, others are breeding for conservation.

Are there easy answers? Probably not. But hasn't this been beat to death already?


----------



## joshbaker14t

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> This is the second discussion, that I'm aware of at least, on this forum. The first having gone over 100 pages I believe. And yet "he" is the one accused of childish banter. Hundreds of pages of mostly childish behavior. At first I didn't understand. Then I started to see the point. Now I think it has gone so far above and beyond that it is now bordering on the absolute ridiculous. If someone doesn't fall exactly in line with the thinking of the half dozen or so that are actively posting then they are absolutely attacked. That is hardly persuasive.
> 
> Like any of YOU would buy frogs from anyone that didn't have an absolute pedigree on them anyway! Please! Those of you that are serious breeders wouldn't buy frogs from Clyde anyway, or anyone you don't know that hasn't been part of your group for years and years. There is a difference between the hobbyist that just enjoys their frogs and the serious breeder, as many of you are. I know you think the reptile and aquarium hobbies have been. polluted but there are two definitely different aspects to both. One is the hobby side in which the hobbyist has their tank full of mixed african cichlids, for example, and the other side that purchases and breeds location-specific Victorian or Tanganyikan Lake species and breeds for conservation purposes. Betta breeders have a similar circumstance. Some are breeding for the hobby and that spectacular showy fish, others are breeding for conservation.
> 
> Are there easy answers? Probably not. But hasn't this been beat to death already?


You have contributed to the banter. Not only that but you claimed that this thread enlightened you and persuaded you from buying from them. ????????????

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## terrim

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Indeed I did, as I said previously. There is a point that discussions pass the point of being educational and become petty. I think this is one of those times. But then I'm one of those that bought and bred location specific Tanganyikans.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

On some things yes. On the other hand though, every day dfw post new outlandish claims that are only going to cause more trouble in the end. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> This is the second discussion, that I'm aware of at least, on this forum. The first having gone over 100 pages I believe. And yet "he" is the one accused of childish banter. Hundreds of pages of mostly childish behavior. At first I didn't understand. Then I started to see the point. Now I think it has gone so far above and beyond that it is now bordering on the absolute ridiculous. If someone doesn't fall exactly in line with the thinking of the half dozen or so that are actively posting then they are absolutely attacked. That is hardly persuasive.
> 
> Like any of YOU would buy frogs from anyone that didn't have an absolute pedigree on them anyway! Please! Those of you that are serious breeders wouldn't buy frogs from Clyde anyway, or anyone you don't know that hasn't been part of your group for years and years. There is a difference between the hobbyist that just enjoys their frogs and the serious breeder, as many of you are. I know you think the reptile and aquarium hobbies have been polluted but there are two definitely different aspects to both. One is the hobby side in which the hobbyist has their tank full of mixed african cichlids, for example, and the other side that purchases and breeds location-specific Victorian or Tanganyikan Lake species and breeds for conservation purposes. Betta breeders have a similar circumstance. Some are breeding for the hobby and that spectacular showy fish, others are breeding for conservation.
> 
> Are there easy answers? Probably not. But hasn't this been beat to death already?


The truth is that if Rick stop updating the site with new "mistruths" the thread would dry up pretty quickly. Everytime he gets caught in a whopper he doubles down on it.


----------



## joshbaker14t

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The hope is that others may be enlightened by keeping this thread at the top of the list. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Brian317

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They are one of the largest threats to the hobby currently and the people behind the company are shady at best. If you feel ok with supporting that kind of person, cool. I sure as heck won't. Have you even read what garbage he is spewing on the website? If that doesn't throw a red flag, I'm not sure what will...

And this is a discussion. Informing new comers who they are targeting. I'm a hobbiest, not a "serious breeder", but I know my frogs are healthy via testing and actual results. They cannot provide the same...


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

There is a pic of part of the warehouse on the site


----------



## boabab95

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*









I saved it incase they deleted it 


InvertaHerp said:


> There is a pic of part of the warehouse on the site


----------



## boabab95

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Here's a random though:

What if they are just trolling us now, and are just doing this to see our reactions?

Also, they have WAY too much time on their hands to be typing all this garbage so frequently... seriously, do they not have anything better to do?


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I know this, I can tell you the type of frogs I own, import years, lineage and breeders. Also test results of viruses and parasites. How about you Clyde?? Regardless of being a hardcore breeder or just someone who enjoys their pets from time to time...I still like to know where they come from. It would be like buying a puppy from a puppy mill! Would you contribute to that??


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



boabab95 said:


> I saved it incase they deleted it


Not a single visible label.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> To avoid frogs being overweight and to keep them in perfect health, be sure to dose your food as we do. We measure our food doses by the CC for every frog we feed so they all stay perfectly fit, grow quickly because of the much needed nutrients, and to track consumption and growth spurts. All frogs go through a few growth spurts toward adult age. They will eat more during these growth spurts and it is important to adjust the food by their increased (or decreased) consumption during and after a growth spurt.


Sure you do... You seriously expect anyone to believe you track this for the 6000, 3000, no wait, 2000' or is it 300-400 frogs you claim to have?

Looks like this is their attempt to address certain recent concerns about overweight/over feeding frogs.

Nice try.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What the hell do they mean "dose your food"? Supplement? And "as they do"? How do you do it?


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I believe they mean they feed in certain dosage amounts. They say in cc's. So I'm assuming a syringe or something along those lines. I just really don't get why they change their website based on the forums topics of discussion about them. I mean at some point we all need to look up the definition of insanity!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



joshbaker14t said:


> The hope is that others may be enlightened by keeping this thread at the top of the list.


I love you guys.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

...and there`s a few people...Donn, Doug, Josh, Boondoggle, Invertaherp, Charlie and others (sorry if I left someone out) who have worked their fanny`s off here.

Just because only a half dozen people have chosen to get involved doesn`t mean several hundred don`t feel the same.
I`m not a big time breeder either and my little collection will pale compared to others.
I also know the people who put the frogs FIRST and the money second.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



terrim said:


> Indeed that pass the point of being educational and become petty. .


This thread is viewed under a microscope by our moderators.
Anything off topic or "petty" is quickly removed and a warning given. (boy do I know that)


----------



## cmooreinla

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> How would you know that they are larger. You have only owned frogs for a few months. All of which were bought from a man who makes used car salesman shake their heads. A responsible breeder would have advised that you maybe not get 13 frogs right away. You haven't even learned if you are capable of long term care. Not to mention that you have just joined this site. To me that says that your mentor is the man who refuses to believe anything that those here have learned with decades of experience.
> How about some pics of these great frogs and their enclosures.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


I never asked his opinion on how many to buy, I have never spoken to him or anyone at that company. I said the 3-5 month old frogs I bought from him were larger than the 6 month old I bought at a trade show. 
That is a simple fact.
As far as not knowing if I am capable of long-term care, you don't even know me or my experiences. I have raised several other exotics for over 10 years including 3 other species of frogs, so I think I can handle a few dart frogs. Not that it matters to you or anyone else here.
Just because I have just recently bought my first ones doesn't mean I am blind. I have seen many at trade shows and I have a few friends who have them as well. I never said they were superior or anything else. 
I thought this was a message board where even a newbie can express an opinion. Its apparent that only elitist assholes are welcomed. So bash away, I am out of here.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You knew full well what was going to happen when you joined the conversation.

Now you bail.

See ya


----------



## cmooreinla

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



PDFanatic said:


> Clyde, so glad to see your enormous frogs are better than two from an unnameable source at a trade show. I bet they jump 4 feet too. Try buying from a reputable breeder on here and see what you get. I dunno just my .02¢. I'm sure they are more bold because dfw raised them. You never specified species of the 11 you bought from them and the 2 from the trade show. I bet that has nothing to do with it though. It must be the magic faerie dust dfw puts in their media that makes them larger, bolder, and just all around better than everyone else. Good luck with frogs that you can't provide info about lineage or origin on. I dunno I like to be able to provide any buyer or potential buyer as much information on who I bought my frogs from, lineage, age, import year, fecal/chytrid test results...etc etc etc. You will learn, it will take a few years and more than owning 13 frogs. I also don't give my money to compulsive liars, sociopaths and all around shady people. Good luck when in a year the glamour of dendrobates wears off and you try to unload those. Chances are you'll have to take a page out of Rick's book and lie about where you obtained them or learn how to humanely euthanize them. Something tells me people won't be beating down your door to buy them after you tell them the origin of those animals. Good luck to you though Clyde.


Who said I was even planning on selling any frogs?
I never said the frogs I bought from usdartfrog were better either. I said they were a few months younger and already as big as the others. I am just as happy with the 2 from the unnamed trade show source. Its a simple fact and it seems to bother a lot of you. 
I was simply sharing my opinion based on my experiences so far. I thought that was what this board was about. However, I now see that opinions differing from other on here will be met with scepticism, ridicule, and criticism. 
You will all be glad to know that I will never share anything on here again. 

Congratulations on alienating the newbies one would think you are supposed to be helping educate. Your rudeness is not exactly encouraging anyone else to share their experiences and opinions either.
When I do have questions in the future, I won't ask for answers here.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You started this not us and you did say "bash away"
I find it interesting that you chose your first posts to be 
on this topic and not properly introducing yourself or asking questions
about the care of these frogs
You can leave it's cool, maybe the next new person here will not start an argument for his first post
Have a lovely


----------



## whitethumb

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

how are you so certain the frogs ages are what they say they are? they have not proven any of their claims. what they have proven is they're untrustworthy, deceitful, and very bad liars among other things.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cmooreinla said:


> Who said I was even planning on selling any frogs?
> I never said the frogs I bought from usdartfrog were better either. I said they were a few months younger and already as big as the others. I am just as happy with the 2 from the unnamed trade show source. Its a simple fact and it seems to bother a lot of you.
> I was simply sharing my opinion based on my experiences so far. I thought that was what this board was about. However, I now see that opinions differing from other on here will be met with scepticism, ridicule, and criticism.
> You will all be glad to know that I will never share anything on here again.
> 
> Congratulations on alienating the newbies one would think you are supposed to be helping educate. Your rudeness is not exactly encouraging anyone else to share their experiences and opinions either.
> When I do have questions in the future, I won't ask for answers here.


Clyde I stated facts and criticized dfw. I however do believe if you came here and asked informative questions, informative answers would have been given. Not returning here is on you but getting advice from dfw on your collection is playing Russian roulette. I care about my animals and won't play with their well-being not to mention all of us who have spent thousands and even tens of thousands. Clyde this is what we are trying to portray to you. If there are questions that you have feel free to ask them and we can try to answer them. But coming on here and making the bold statements you did is a recipe for disaster. Especially if you read this thread and the other one. Nobody is trying to run you off and we would be happy to help you. Granted help is what you want and its not trying to convince us how great dfw is. Because sir they are far from it. Have a safe and happy easter Clyde!


----------



## joshbaker14t

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm sure another brand new member will pop up, post on one other thread, then hit this and breeding threads to defend dfw and mixing. Never fails...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cmooreinla said:


> Exactly the type of response I was expecting.
> 
> Well lets see,,,,,, I have had them for a few months now and they are all growing and have good appetites. They are very active. I have no reason to think otherwise.
> 
> By what means are you judging that they are unhealthy "Jason" ?





terrim said:


> Indeed I did, as I said previously. There is a point that discussions pass the point of being educational and become petty. I think this is one of those times. But then I'm one of those that bought and bred location specific Tanganyikans.


I read your longer posts but I'm going to quote your short ones to save space and address your issues with this thread...

First I agree that not everything in this thread has been constructive, and maybe I'm one of the ones guilty of that at times. I get how this could look to someone new to our community. I addressed that here in case you missed it...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...dartfrogs-companion-thread-7.html#post1902898


Now, chances are your frogs from them are perfectly healthy (compared to others in the hobby). Pure blood, and actually of the species/locale/morph you wanted to buy (assuming you cared, many of us do)... Questionable!. If you have any experience in any other hobby or with salesmen in general, and I'm sure you do... then you know there are a lot of people out there that can seem like the nicest, greatest people to deal with but then turn out to be liars and cheaters, or just screw ups in general. These people are desperate to sell you frogs, so it stands to reason as long as you don't press them to hard they are going to be super nice. Here are some of the problems though...
*
(Please read these points and ask yourself these questions...)*
1. Usdart etc..etc... has repeatedly posted very questionable, or potentially made up info. At the very least much their "science" is either not actually theirs, or it is is just wrong. They have misunderstood or even misrepresented real science and presented a bunch of BS pseudoscience. Not surprisingly their interpretations are always skewed to their benefit. *Do you find it ethical to provide the newest people to the hobby with bad info and/or made up pseudoscience skewed to suit their financial agenda?*

2. They use ambulance chasing/sleazy used car salesman tactics and are targeting the most uninformed portion of their potential customer base because the informed people (some actual scientists included), have repeatedly called them on their BS. *Does this inspire confidence and seem like the tactics of ethical/moral people? Would you want people like that dealing with newcomers to your hobby?*

3. *They flat out went back on their word* about not mixing morphs/locales or species.* They said "We will not mix species or varieties". Is someone that will go back on their word like this the logical person to buy from and support, or allow to remain in business without speaking up against them?* They've repeatedly went back on their word, and they edit their website so much that "their word" changes ever few minutes, hours, or days... *Is that someone who inspires trust and you'd want in your hobby?*

4. Initially most people were open to DFW entering into business but when people had a few legit concerns and ask questions and/or informed them that much of what they wanted to do was against the accepted practices of the community they broke off communication (other then website edits). *Is someone who has no respect for the hobby's standards, accepted operating procedures, and common etiquette all the while employing sleazy ambulance chaser/used car salesman tactics someone you'd want new people entering the hobby to be exposed to?*

5. *Rick has hasn't just been taking it, he's been dishing it out.* He's repeatedly tried to convince people there are like vast conspiracies by a large number or breeders to misinform you, rip you off and sell subpar animals to you. They seem to repeatedly exaggerate, mislead, or misrepresents things to get people's money, and/or are so ignorant of the actual facts (or intentionally twisting/omitting them (IMO)) that they are a danger to others, the hobby and of course the animals (IMO, and it seems that of many others). *Should his potentially permanent statements of this type on a website (if he could keep from editing his site's content for 5 minutes) be unanswered by the community?*

6. He's taken pics and info from other sellers or people in the hobby and used them to his benefit while repeatedly trying to distance himself from the hobby and calling into question the integrity of other sellers or people in the hobby, and the quality of their animals/business practices. He's also claimed to respect and admire other breeders while repeatedly disrespecting them and their wishes.* Is someone like this that also comes in and acts like they're the best and everyone else is crap while benefiting from the work and knowledge of the people they are insulting, a person you'd welcome into your hobby with open arms?* 

7. Anyone selling hybrids lessens the chances of someone getting what they actually wanted to buy and not some frog that's mixed and doesn't breed true. *Does one or few persons selfish desires and lust for profit trump the majority of the hobby communities desire to be reasonably sure what they wanted to buy is actually what they got?* 

*Is someone who has repeatedly gone back on their word, repeatedly edits their website content so nothing can be counted on from day to day, and is producing hybrids and selling those along side of "pure blood" frogs on a commercial scale not someone you would consider a threat to your beloved hobby and animals?*

8. They make bold claims about how "SAFE" and healthy these animals are with very little to back it up, ignoring info about toxic peptides found in CB animals, and common parasites or disease that if not common in almost all collections are at least possible under the best of efforts against them... all while calling into question other people's efforts. *Do you not think those kinda claims under those circumstances should be questioned/scrutinized?* 



---------------------------------------------

Please keep in mind that almost no one has chimed in to defend them. For the most part at best people take issue with "the beating of a dead horse" or some potential pettiness of the comments, not the actual points against these people. Also keep in mind that most of the people in this hobby are very intelligent, many are scientists, very experienced/knowledgeable, and these people basically started all this by in effect telling us to all go screw ourselves when we asked a few questions, and took issue with some of their plans or business tactics. 

There's more, but if you can't understand just from those 8 points and the related questions I posed, why we think it is worth beating this dead horse to keep these people from being a permanent part of our hobby... I have no clue how to relate to that. (I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean... I just don't)

Oh and remember that if you ever wanna breed and sell any animals you got from them you may find it difficult because *they probably didn't tell you the majority of the hobby finds them reprehensible and their animals tainted,* if not genetically then just because they came from these people with their sleazy tactics and total lack of respect.* Wouldn't that have been nice to know before hand? ...Even if you don't care, don't you think for those that might, that alone is worth keeping this thread alive and info current about these people's craptastic antics that threaten us all? (Or at least those that care about ethics/morality, trust in general or having any clue whether what we wanted to buy was actually what we got????* (I'm not saying you don't care about these things, I'm just saying as newcomers to our community it might not be readily apparent just how bad what these people are doing seems to many of us) 

I'm glad that you had a positive experience (except that every dollar in these people's pocket encourages them to stick around and remain a threat to every new hobbiest with the BS, skewed science and/or pseudoscience, not to mention the integrity of any species they work with), I just ask that before you judge us to harshly, that you keep in mind that every hobby community has it's own culture, own standards and etiquette and these people completely disrespected all of it, all while benefiting from our knowledge and basing their frankenstein business model on frogs from some of us that would never condone their actions. 

*Again I hope you read that earlier post of mine where I said I could understand why some people new to this community would wonder why our panties in such a twist over this... I would have been one of them, Then... But not now!* There is a crap ton of intelligence, experience and even scientific expertise here... *The majority of people here generally have good and valid reasons for saying/doing everything they do... Even if I don't always agree, I've come to see that at least.*

*P.S.* Welcome to the hobby and the community. Most people here will bend over backwards to educate and help you out, and treat you right as long as you're respectful, (This is where DFW/usdart etc..etc... *UTTERLY FAILED*.)


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cmooreinla said:


> I was simply sharing my opinion based on my experiences so far. I thought that was what this board was about. However, I now see that opinions differing from other on here will be met with scepticism, ridicule, and criticism.
> You will all be glad to know that I will never share anything on here again.
> 
> Congratulations on alienating the newbies one would think you are supposed to be helping educate. Your rudeness is not exactly encouraging anyone else to share their experiences and opinions either.
> When I do have questions in the future, I won't ask for answers here.


The people debating with you are also just sharing their opinions based on their experiences so far as well. Those experiences have been going on with this subject longer than yours and the opinions are different. It's called standing up for what you believe in and what you believe is right. If you've never made an enemy in your life then you will have no idea what this means. The small group of people that are calling you out and that have been following this ordeal for, what over 6 months now?, are sticking up for what they feel is right. I don't think it would matter for any single person that is still choosing to be involved, if they were the only person on Earth defending the side of the issue at hand with zero supporters, they would still be actively voicing their opinions on here because it's worth fighting for to them. There just happens to be a handful of people with the same core values congregated in the same area that are working together on this without even having to try to work together. 

Clyde, don't get all butthurt because you debuted yourself into this shit storm of a topic. I could stay in this thread and rattle your cage for another 50 pages over the next year  But if I see other posts from you looking for advice on specific issues for viv construction or any types of husbandry topics that could arise where I can help, I'm going to respond to that as if you were my buddy and give you genuine and honest advice and answers. Then when you post a for sale ad with Ricks frogs, I'll be jumping right back down your throat again  And then if we ever met up at a frog meet, I'd throw you a cold beer and ask to see pictures of your collection. That's just how it is. People are going to stand up for what they believe is the right thing and there's nothing that's going to change that. Even when it gets to the point of the mods locking this thread again, it won't matter. Rick believes his shit is right, and we believe his shit is stupid. This will be an issue for Rick through his entire business adventure with dart frogs forever because both sides are standing up for themselves.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cmooreinla said:


> I never asked his opinion on how many to buy, I have never spoken to him or anyone at that company. I said the 3-5 month old frogs I bought from him were larger than the 6 month old I bought at a trade show.
> That is a simple fact.
> As far as not knowing if I am capable of long-term care, you don't even know me or my experiences. I have raised several other exotics for over 10 years including 3 other species of frogs, so I think I can handle a few dart frogs. Not that it matters to you or anyone else here.
> Just because I have just recently bought my first ones doesn't mean I am blind. I have seen many at trade shows and I have a few friends who have them as well. I never said they were superior or anything else.
> I thought this was a message board where even a newbie can express an opinion. Its apparent that only elitist assholes are welcomed. So bash away, I am out of here.


Knock it off with the "bash away" crap. You posted your experience and called everyone "petty" and got a bunch of respectful replies and one post with some challenging questions and suddenly you're name calling. The only post you were interesting in replying to was the one you could sink your teeth into. 

Welcome to the conversation. You have a unique perspective here and I'm interested in what you have to say unless you're just here to bash and be bashed.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> one post with some challenging questions and suddenly you're name calling.


That is exactly identical to what happened to me when I called 901-491-9145 the other day before I got hung up on.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Experience in one type of herp is not the same as experience in another. I have been keeping herps for much longer than 10 years. I still ask questions, as well as reading daily.
This elitist talk is very far off. 90% of the people here will help you any way we can. I have seen members here go out of their way to buy supplies for someone in hard times here. This is a close knit hobby. 


Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Clyde, the reason I used your name in quotes is because your first post came off as parroting some of the "feedback" on the USdartfog site. Since you seem to be a real person, I apologize. I never said your frogs were unhealthy, I only asked how you judge that they are. I understand that you are new around here, but if you stick around you'll see that everybody's willing to help, but expect to get some no nonsense answers (and, to be honest, some nonsense ).


----------



## Jeremy M

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Guys, I believe that I have a solution that would work for everyone here. What if- and I'm being completely serious here- DF warehouse & friends put serious time, money and research into finding a way to safely sterilize their frogs? (sterilize as in spay/neuter terms). All the rest of the hobby would be happy since there would be no chance of the undesirable frogs' blood entering the pure blood stream of correctly bred species and morphs, and I have no doubt that DFW would jump on the idea if it were possible, seeing how we all know they just LOVE to trademark/copyright/patent every little thing they can think of. What could be better for business than if their super-special superior one-of-a-kind frogs couldn't be re-created and sold by any competitors? Just imagine, they would have control of the complete arian frog race on the whole market! No competition from anyone! The only trouble would be figuring out how to do this, and how to make it happen on a mass scale. I can only imagine that the experimentation process would lead to mass frog trauma and loss of life. What do you guys think?


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



boabab95 said:


> I saved it incase they deleted it





ZookeeperDoug said:


> Not a single visible label.



This boggles my mind, but I guess if does not matter if you don't have a problem mixing morphs. I am also surprised that for a family who reports breeding thousands of frogs, that they don't have a more efficient tadpole raising system. 

My thanks to those keeping this thread visible.


----------



## whitethumb

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

agreed, especially if they claim to have such superior frogs.



srrrio said:


> This boggles my mind, but I guess if does not matter if you don't have a problem mixing morphs. I am also surprised that for a family who reports breeding thousands of frogs, that they don't have a more efficient tadpole raising system.
> 
> My thanks to those keeping this thread visible.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

For you folks who wonder why people make the effort to keep this thread active/open.

I'm in full admiration of those folks. These are the folks who *love* our hobby - and want to keep it from turning into hypomelanistic/tangerine/shaded "frog of the month" territory.

We have gorgeous stock to work with. Absolutely beautiful frogs, with (mostly) good locality data.

And we have people trying to screw around with what *naturally* works.

I have nothing but admiration for these people who consider it important enough to keep in the Public's eye. Us folks who have been around for awhile know better than to buy mixed frogs (mixed by "accident" or on purpose). It's the new folks who need to learn what is acceptable, and more importantly what is NOT acceptable, in our Hobby.

And again - you think these folks wouldn't rather be doing something else? That's foolish thinking folks. They're doing this because they care about our hobby.

So I really don't want to hear people griping about why people are "still" participating in this thread.

They participate because they care about our hobby.

s


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> For you folks who wonder why people make the effort to keep this thread active/open.
> 
> I'm in full admiration of those folks. These are the folks who *love* our hobby - and want to keep it from turning into hypomelanistic/tangerine/shaded "frog of the month" territory.
> 
> We have gorgeous stock to work with. Absolutely beautiful frogs, with (mostly) good locality data.
> 
> And we have people trying to screw around with what *naturally* works.
> 
> I have nothing but admiration for these people who consider it important enough to keep in the Public's eye. Us folks who have been around for awhile know better than to buy mixed frogs (mixed by "accident" or on purpose). It's the new folks who need to learn what is acceptable, and more importantly what is NOT acceptable, in our Hobby.
> 
> And again - you think these folks wouldn't rather be doing something else? That's foolish thinking folks. They're doing this because they care about our hobby.
> 
> So I really don't want to hear people griping about why people are "still" participating in this thread.
> 
> They participate because they care about our hobby.
> 
> s


Thanks Scott. My view is that the PDF hobby is what will eventually keep these jewels around when we finish our complete annihilation of their natural rain forest habitats. I'm a believer in propagating these frogs the way nature intended. For example, two different morphs of auratus usually represent different populations for different geographical areas, so they almost certainly wouldn't mix and breed. That's pretty basic science/logic imo. In regards to the morphs seen in other hobbies, for example ball pythons, I can understand it. Those animals tend to be very variable gentically, so you have natural morphs such as albinism, melanism etc. Then these genetics are manipulated by selective breeding, however I don't want to go in to line breeding as I recognize there are issues with that process. I will say though that I think some of these snake morphs are very pretty and very cool, but I won't comment much beyond that. It is annoying though when you go to a herp show and out of 50 vendors 49 of them are BP breeders. We don't need that to happen to dart frogs, they already come in practically every color under the sun.


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## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Bad Guy Dillon and Rick Wascher, www.safedartfrogs.com - FaunaClassifieds

Interesting. Our boys Dillon and Rick have a Bad Guy thread on the BOI. Exciting!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Bad Guy Dillon and Rick Wascher, www.safedartfrogs.com - FaunaClassifieds
> 
> Interesting. Our boys Dillon and Rick have a Bad Guy thread on the BOI. Exciting!


Yeah, and for the most part it is being handled pretty poorly, especially by the OP. I wish O could say otherwise. If it was going to be posted there it really could have been handled much more diplomatically. We have a very strong case for showing how they lie and manipulate in order to profit, which essentially amounts to fraud. The trouble is the burden of proof falls on the accuser on the BOI and so far they've done little to shore up our case and they're getting hammered. I admit I made a half ass attempt to provide some input, as did Ed and Mark, but most of the posters on Fauna are more interested with cyclical wang swinging contests and ad hominum attacks on each other, than they are listening to legitimate complaints. 

IMO, the BOI is not the appropriate forum to deal with them.

I think many of our concerns fall on deaf ears their anyway. Fauna is a primarily herp forum where they're going to embrace that which our hobby works so hard to avoid. One of the principal attractors to me of darts and this hobby is that we with very few exceptions avoid that which the snake, lizard, even aquarium hobbies have embraced.

Perhaps some motivated individuals can address some of the key issues there. Invert where makes some very compelling cases. Just remember, the whole mixed morph hybrid thing should probably be avoided except to point out that our hobby norm is to generally reject them, and that the Wascher's plainly lied about their intentions. The most compelling arguement against the Wascher's is that the lie repeatedly and this have absolute zero credibility other than with the ignorant and misinformed.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Amen Doug, it should be called Bored of Ball Pythons...instead of Board of Inquiry, more rip off artists there in a year than I have seen in our hobby in 25. Oh boy had it only been Dillon saying "dad I really find leopard geckos interesting" or ball pythons...or anything but the only group of animals that we all care about. Too bad we will never know the numbers behind it all, let's just pray it ends.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> Amen Doug, it should be called Bored of Ball Pythons...instead of Board of Inquiry, more rip off artists there in a year than I have seen in our hobby in 25. Oh boy had it only been Dillon saying "dad I really find leopard geckos interesting" or ball pythons...or anything but the only group of animals that we all care about. Too bad we will never know the numbers behind it all, let's just pray it ends.



Then they could create designers and what not and be welcomed. Makes more sense.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The herp scene has so many breeders that they would have never had a market. Here they saw a lack of frog farms and thought "this we can exploit". Besides, the high end balls cost more than ten times then that of some of the most desirable pdf. 
I know the guy that breeders boas for Alice Cooper, even he struggles at times. Rick would have been bankrupt to keep up in that market. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Yeah, and for the most part it is being handled pretty poorly, especially by the OP....


Yeah, that is not the place to go with a complaint unless you have followed complete due course and have all your facts lined up. For those who haven't been there, it's not a "Hey, here's a heads-up on a shady guy" kind of site. You have to have tried to work it out with the seller and have all your facts straight. That being said, if you do get a couple verified complaints there it gets very difficult to sell animals in the reptile world.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> The herp scene has so many breeders that they would have never had a market. Here they saw a lack of frog farms and thought "this we can exploit". Besides, the high end balls cost more than ten times then that of some of the most desirable pdf.
> I know the guy that breeders boas for Alice Cooper, even he struggles at times. Rick would have been bankrupt to keep up in that market.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


He is going to go bankrupt in this market too. Breeding a bunch of very over represented frogs and a bunch of overpriced frogs that nobody wants. Should have done a bit more market research beyond asking a couple soccer moms at daycare why they wouldn't let their kids keep a Poison Dart Frog.....


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> He is going to go bankrupt in this market too. Breeding a bunch of very over represented frogs and a bunch of overpriced frogs that nobody wants. Should have done a bit more market research beyond asking a couple soccer moms at daycare why they wouldn't let their kids keep a Poison Dart Frog.....


I just read on the BOI that the seed money for DFW came from one of the children's college funds. If that is true the really bums me out. I guess it explains why they are so tenaciously sticking the course they set, but jeez, I will take no pleasure in watching them crash and burn.

IF this was a situation where a father said to his son, "You don't want to go to College? Fine, let's take this money and follow your dream", then it is absolutely tragic how badly they misread the market. Can you imagine if they would have taken this kind of dedication, manpower, and especially capitol and approached the hobby with the same type of business plan as, say a NEHerp or a Dendrobati? They would have CRUSHED! I don't think it would have been good for the hobby to flood the market with $20 leucs and tincs, but they would have established breeders running in fear.

You know who you don't see complaining here? Big established breeders. I think they know that this will actually be good for them. I believe that, to some degree, informed buyers are going to much more picky about who they buy from and will look for frogs from a known name to be sure they are getting the frog they are expecting. This is going to hurt the casual hobbyist who just sells to support his collection but hasn't established any name. Those guys (probably myself included, now that I think about it) are going to have to drop prices and hustle to make sales.

Man, Rick, seriously...If you had just taken a few months to understand the market...Hell, if you had even taken advise before committing to all the BS and ruining your name...You could have OWNED this market. I'm not saying that would have been a good thing for us, but seriously, you would have owned it.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hah. You think he even did that much research. I though their researching ended in the eighth grade. Frog A + frog B = frog C. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## MrBiggs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They now have a pictorial buying guide, is that new?


----------



## Lukesfrogs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This may be a dumb question but going to ask anyway is DFW (dart frog warehouse)
the same as us dart frogs? It seems like the two are the same in this discussion! Just curious if they own both or both just have horrible practices?


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Lukesfrogs said:


> This may be a dumb question but going to ask anyway is DFW (dart frog warehouse)
> the same as us dart frogs? It seems like the two are the same in this discussion! Just curious if they own both or both just have horrible practices?


Yes they are both the same company. Just a couple of the many names they use. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Lukesfrogs said:


> This may be a dumb question but going to ask anyway is DFW (dart frog warehouse)
> the same as us dart frogs? It seems like the two are the same in this discussion! Just curious if they own both or both just have horrible practices?


*Domains used in the past or currently owned:*
frogdude.com
designerfrogs.com
shipyourfrogs.com
frogdayus.com
usafrogzoo.com
shopdartfrog.com
shopdartfrogs.com
petdartfrog.com
frogzoo.org
dartfrog.co
buydartfrogs.com
dartfrogwarehouse.com
safedartfrogs.com
wascher.com/usafrogfrogzoo.html

*Business names used:*
Frogdudes
Koifrog
Designer Frogs
US Dart Frog
USA Frog
USA Frog Zoo
Frog Zoo
Frog Warehouse
Art Frog Warehouse
Dart Frog Warehouse
Buy Dart Frogs
Safe Dart Frogs


----------



## Lukesfrogs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow their bussiness plan seems like it was a spur of the moment rather then a plan! They are just another example of how the pet trade has gone to money rather then the enjoyment and well being of the animals! Very sad for the planet! To everyone doing it right my children's children thank you in advance!


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> I just read on the BOI that the seed money for DFW came from one of the children's college funds.


I believe Rick or Dillon said it was the college fund and a corvette that was used to get them going. No idea what the year, mileage, or condition of the car was but I guess that doesn't really matter as much.


----------



## pinkpony

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just wanted to personally thank everyone who has kept up on these guys. I knew about the other business name. I wasn't about to read the full thread. But I read enough to clearly ascertain that there were several things I didn't like so I told myself to never do business with them.

I was googling male super blues as I'm on the fence of should I buy a male or wait longer? (Might have 1.2 or .3) 

I found a site that said they had males. First red flag was a name I never heard of next to the super blue name. I thought to myself great another site making up names for their frogs.. but I was curious so I asked if they could guarantee me a calling male. As i already know auratus are hard to sex, calling is the easiest sure fire way to know its a male. I asked what line they were also.

They said none are calling but they are the largest breeder in the world with over 6000 in house frogs. So they can definitely pick out males and females. 

And as for what lines they are, he didn't tell me what line I would be getting for a super blue. He just said Understory and others.

These answers sparked my interest. Did a Google search and found this thread. 

Must be a great booming business, largest in the world.. with 6000+ frogs. A huge booming business would NEVER have any reason to change their business name. 

Unless they got out of darts and into something else. A name change in itself seems very sketchy, like you're trying to hide something. Many of my family members own their own businesses. And they would never change their company names. They have worked hard to build up their names and reputation! 

Anyway thank you everyone for this thread. Whether they have great frogs or not so great frogs. I don't want to chance it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



pinkpony said:


> I just wanted to personally thank everyone who has kept up on these guys. I knew about the other business name. I wasn't about to read the full thread. But I read enough to clearly ascertain that there were several things I didn't like so I told myself to never do business with them.
> 
> I was googling male super blues as I'm on the fence of should I buy a male or wait longer? (Might have 1.2 or .3)
> 
> I found a site that said they had males. First red flag was a name I never heard of next to the super blue name. I thought to myself great another site making up names for their frogs.. but I was curious so I asked if they could guarantee me a calling male. As i already know auratus are hard to sex, calling is the easiest sure fire way to know its a male. I asked what line they were also.
> 
> They said none are calling but they are the largest breeder in the world with over 6000 in house frogs. So they can definitely pick out males and females.
> 
> And as for what lines they are, he didn't tell me what line I would be getting for a super blue. He just said Understory and others.
> 
> These answers sparked my interest. Did a Google search and found this thread.
> 
> Must be a great booming business, largest in the world.. with 6000+ frogs. A huge booming business would NEVER have any reason to change their business name.
> 
> Unless they got out of darts and into something else. A name change in itself seems very sketchy, like you're trying to hide something. Many of my family members own their own businesses. And they would never change their company names. They have worked hard to build up their names and reputation!
> 
> Anyway thank you everyone for this thread. Whether they have great frogs or not so great frogs. I don't want to chance it.


Everyone high five yourself! This is why we're STILL fighting this.

We may have failed the unfortunate Mr. Moore in LA, but we ARE reaching more and more people daily.

Keep it up folks, we got this!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh and just a shout out to Dendro Dave, thank you so much for wading balls deep into the cesspool that is Fauna. 

I do have a couple really big ideas I want to roll out soon. Feel free to PM me about how you can help. I want to make this a coordinated effort, where everybody participates. But I have relatives coming in and I'll be taking a bit of a break, so I want to get everyone on the same page before we roll it out.

Please note, this idea is a positive thing for OUR community, not an attack on usDartfrog. The intent will be to inform the uninformed as to who responsible breeders and vendors in our community are, where, as near as I can tell, they are sorely under-represented.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Kudos to you doing your research Pink! I've looked at some of my frogs and would have bet money that they were a female only to catch them calling. My sons auratus recently started calling and it's pretty quiet right now so you might not be hearing "him" yet either if you have much for distractions in the room they are kept in. Poke around a little bit on some sponsors pages and I'm sure you will find what you're looking for if you haven't already been contacted by someone.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



pinkpony said:


> I just wanted to personally thank everyone who has kept up on these guys. I knew about the other business name. I wasn't about to read the full thread. But I read enough to clearly ascertain that there were several things I didn't like so I told myself to never do business with them.
> 
> I was googling male super blues as I'm on the fence of should I buy a male or wait longer? (Might have 1.2 or .3)
> 
> I found a site that said they had males. First red flag was a name I never heard of next to the super blue name. I thought to myself great another site making up names for their frogs.. but I was curious so I asked if they could guarantee me a calling male. As i already know auratus are hard to sex, calling is the easiest sure fire way to know its a male. I asked what line they were also.
> 
> They said none are calling but they are the largest breeder in the world with over 6000 in house frogs. So they can definitely pick out males and females.
> 
> And as for what lines they are, he didn't tell me what line I would be getting for a super blue. He just said Understory and others.
> 
> These answers sparked my interest. Did a Google search and found this thread.
> 
> Must be a great booming business, largest in the world.. with 6000+ frogs. A huge booming business would NEVER have any reason to change their business name.
> 
> Unless they got out of darts and into something else. A name change in itself seems very sketchy, like you're trying to hide something. Many of my family members own their own businesses. And they would never change their company names. They have worked hard to build up their names and reputation!
> 
> Anyway thank you everyone for this thread. Whether they have great frogs or not so great frogs. I don't want to chance it.


Sometimes a business will have several names for inter selling reasons. Where I work we run under a few names but that is because some companies that are our direct competitors won't buy from us but will our sister companies. 
You did well to see that these are very sketchy people. That is not the case with them. They are hiding from places like this that keep tags up that will hurt them.
Understory and others refers to the people from boards like this that they bought from in the past before anyone knew what they were planning. They cannot give you any lines because they themselves don't know which frogs bred to get what you are buying. That and since they have gone on record as saying that every person but them breeds in the wrong manner they can't say they got them from someone that isn't in line with their methods.


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> LOL. Now we're just a bunch of old guys who apparently charge too much and raise puny frogs. Okay, guilty as charged. I'm old, I don't devalue the livings things which are in my care, and my frogs are not overly obese. I am not, however, a famous seller
> 
> I've yet to see anyone on the forums say that raising frogs is not for kids. I for one think more kids should be doing it ... responsibly.


I agree with you 100%.

I think most of us that started keeping animals at all started as a kid...

I think kids have an enthusiasm for life that a lot of adults don't have.

I think a lot of times, the younger keepers show up the older ones.

I am kind of glad for that...


----------



## Dr Christopher McHale

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> ...and there`s a few people...Donn, Doug, Josh, Boondoggle, Invertaherp, Charlie and others (sorry if I left someone out) who have worked their fanny`s off here.
> 
> Just because only a half dozen people have chosen to get involved doesn`t mean several hundred don`t feel the same.
> I`m not a big time breeder either and my little collection will pale compared to others.
> I also know the people who put the frogs FIRST and the money second.


If I was in this hobby for the money I would just keep a tank full of money in my house, it would be way easier than keeping animals.

It may get kind of boring though...


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dr Christopher McHale said:


> If I was in this hobby for the money I would just keep a tank full of money in my house, it would be way easier than keeping animals.
> 
> It may get kind of boring though...


Everytime I've tried this the money never grows. It just sits there and stagnates. I've tried all different combinations, coins, dollars.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> The herp scene has so many breeders that they would have never had a market. Here they saw a lack of frog farms and thought "this we can exploit". Besides, the high end balls cost more than ten times then that of some of the most desirable pdf.
> I know the guy that breeders boas for Alice Cooper, even he struggles at times. Rick would have been bankrupt to keep up in that market.


In most of those cases the reptile market is effectively a pyramid scheme. Those at the top make the most money and at each level the person makes less and less money. This is common with the various morphs and locality specific animals and as with dart frogs, there are popularity swings which can really change the desirability of certain animals. it's really hard to end up king of the world with the most common species as the markets are often saturated with those species and as such the profit margin on each animal is very small. So to make it you have to sell very large numbers of the common animals to make it sustainable. 
IF the DFW isn't selling huge numbers of animals or products at some point there is going to be a reckoning on the sustainability as you can only break even or fail to show a profit for so long. 

If people really wanted to put pressure on DFW, they could simply sell their common species whole sale to various vendors below that of DFW. If it's a hobby you don't have to break even or show a profit (although it is nice). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Azurel

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> In most of those cases the reptile market is effectively a pyramid scheme. Those at the top make the most money and at each level the person makes less and less money. This is common with the various morphs and locality specific animals and as with dart frogs, there are popularity swings which can really change the desirability of certain animals. it's really hard to end up king of the world with the most common species as the markets are often saturated with those species and as such the profit margin on each animal is very small. So to make it you have to sell very large numbers of the common animals to make it sustainable.
> IF the DFW isn't selling huge numbers of animals or products at some point there is going to be a reckoning on the sustainability as you can only break even or fail to show a profit for so long.
> 
> If people really wanted to put pressure on DFW, they could simply sell their common species whole sale to various vendors below that of DFW. If it's a hobby you don't have to break even or show a profit (although it is nice).
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


That's the same type of thing I posted Ed, 60 pages ago and no one responded or thought I was full of it and wanted to hear it. But at this point that is the only effective way of dealing with this business is on the business playing field and undercutting them to make their overhead hurt them.... anything outside of that has no real effect.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I do have a couple really big ideas I want to roll out soon. Feel free to PM me about how you can help. I want to make this a coordinated effort, where everybody participates. But I have relatives coming in and I'll be taking a bit of a break, so I want to get everyone on the same page before we roll it out.
> 
> Please note, this idea is a positive thing for OUR community, not an attack on usDartfrog. The intent will be to inform the uninformed as to who responsible breeders and vendors in our community are, where, as near as I can tell, they are sorely under-represented.


WOW! Keep the PMs rolling. I'm not ignoring you by not responding, I'm seeing how many people are interested so i can roll out the entire thing to interested parties. Right now I'm just putting names down.

For anyone who has any doubts about the plan, it is purely positive. You won't have to get involved in anything related to DFW/US Art frog at all.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> WOW! Keep the PMs rolling. I'm not ignoring you by not responding, I'm seeing how many people are interested so i can roll out the entire thing to interested parties. Right now I'm just putting names down.
> 
> For anyone who has any doubts about the plan, it is purely positive. You won't have to get involved in anything related to DFW/US Art frog at all.


Okay good


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I go away from the forums for a while and come back to find all of this madness. Kudos to all of you that are fighting to keep the hobby from being hijacked by these DFW "experts".

Glad to see they aren't working with any thumbnails since that's what I've returned to the board to do my research on.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USDartFrog website said:


> Selecting a line for any reason is selective breeding for a desired outcome. Thus, the issue is not about whether a breeder "is" or "is not" line breeding, because all breeders of any volume do it routinely in some way. *The issue is about calling it what it is and the mythical dragons that come get you if you do it without approvals. * We are strong proponents of freedom, and still believe frogs are pets, and all people should freely breed whatever they want in captivity, provided of course, there is no harmful impact on wild populations.


Mythical dragons? LOL. Oh Ricky, the middle school mentality of your writing style really shines! It also helps illuminate who your target customer is ... 

It's been stated here many times how Mr. Phenotype's mutts may actually put more pressure on wild populations. But the truth doesn't sell frogs does it Ricky?



USDartFrog website said:


> This is America! So, why is captive line breeding of pet frogs such a "taboo" when breeders of all other species of animals, including exotics, selectively breed as professionals.


Yes, we should do it because everyone else is doing it? Right? Apparently, Mr. Phenotype is still attempting to appeal to middle schoolers here. Ricky didn't get it when his mommy asked him if he would jump off a bridge just because his friends were doing it ...



USDartFrog website said:


> In fact, when we bought our hunting dog, a first pet dog for us, *we sought a breeder who had quality dogs with field championships, the best traits we wanted, colors we wanted, body conformation, beauty, etc.*


So Mr. Phenotype didn't want a mutt? Huh, I wonder why not .... !?! Good example Ricky ... good example ... you really do think things through don't you? lol.



USDartFrog website said:


> Why can't you get the frogs you want from a captive bred source of high quality and diversity in selection. With us, you can! *We are the "CAN DO" company, and we believe wild populations are preserved and conserved by more captive breeding of frogs of any kind.*


Again, It's been stated here many times how Mr. Phenotype's mutts may actually put more pressure on wild populations.

I'm really surprised Ricky hasn't trademarked "CAN DO" yet, but I'm sure he'll get around to it sooner or later.

There are no limits to Mr. Phenotypes douchebaggery. He say whatever and do whatever it takes to sell a product ... a modern day snake oil salesman.


----------



## jaybugg13

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> So Mr. Phenotype didn't want a mutt? Huh, I wonder why not .... !?! Good example Ricky ... good example ... you really do think things through don't you? lol.


As much as I disagree with Rick's approach on frogging terms I do actually think this is an argument that will resonate with the uninformed public. Dogs seem to me to be one of the more interesting achievements of man's selective breeding efforts and of course are quite common and accepted by society so applying the same logic to frogs can *seem* natural. There are of course major differences chief among them for me is the lack of *wild* population of poodles which are threatened by the golden-doodle, for example. Also the logic seems to be circular with a moving definition of mutt i.e. we wanted a championship dog which is a cross-bred specimen and not a mutt, another cross-bred specimen.

Looking at the grand picture almost every other live stock based hobby today (freshwater aquaria, salt water aquaria, snakes, lizards, dogs, cats etc) experiences some amount of human species manipulation in either selective breeding or genetic manipulation. So what's the long term plan for preventing that in the dart frog hobby? To some degree these "innovations" in specimens have *seemed* to correspond to increased participation in the hobbies which is generally considered a good thing (I don't have any scientific evidence to support this) and also seems to go along with a general easing of the preconceived notions of the difficulty. For example in salt water aquaria the minimum reef size used to be a 40 breeder and now we have nano reefs of less then 5 gallons. I believe the dart frog hobby has experienced a similar overall trend so it makes me wonder then what will prevent less dedicated hobbyists from being taken in by operations like Rick's? The community here is clearly one of the most dedicated and informed I have seen around, but if the dart frog grows in popularity eventually the dedicated hobbyists opinion could become marginalized and then associated with elitism. Sorry for the length, just wondering where this is going long term.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hmm... it seems that they have never bothered to read the various discussion on the Anthropogenic Allee effect as demonstrated here 

PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect 

As the perception of the risk that there are hybrid animals increases demand on wild caught animals can actually increase.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



jaybugg13 said:


> As much as I disagree with Rick's approach on frogging terms I do actually think this is an argument that will resonate with the uninformed public. Dogs seem to me to be one of the more interesting achievements of man's selective breeding efforts and of course are quite common and accepted by society so applying the same logic to frogs can *seem* natural. There are of course major differences chief among them for me is the lack of *wild* population of poodles which are threatened by the golden-doodle, for example. Also the logic seems to be circular with a moving definition of mutt i.e. we wanted a championship dog which is a cross-bred specimen and not a mutt, another cross-bred specimen.
> 
> Looking at the grand picture almost every other live stock based hobby today (freshwater aquaria, salt water aquaria, snakes, lizards, dogs, cats etc) experiences some amount of human species manipulation in either selective breeding or genetic manipulation. So what's the long term plan for preventing that in the dart frog hobby? To some degree these "innovations" in specimens have *seemed* to correspond to increased participation in the hobbies which is generally considered a good thing (I don't have any scientific evidence to support this) and also seems to go along with a general easing of the preconceived notions of the difficulty. For example in salt water aquaria the minimum reef size used to be a 40 breeder and now we have nano reefs of less then 5 gallons. I believe the dart frog hobby has experienced a similar overall trend so it makes me wonder then what will prevent less dedicated hobbyists from being taken in by operations like Rick's? The community here is clearly one of the most dedicated and informed I have seen around, but if the dart frog grows in popularity eventually the dedicated hobbyists opinion could become marginalized and then associated with elitism. Sorry for the length, just wondering where this is going long term.


Well IMO I think one thing Rick has been absolutely clear on is, he is more then willing to redefine anything to suit his own agenda. 

Also while some hybrids popping up in the hobby is unavoidable, and perhaps a commercial breeder becoming established who sells them regularly is inevitable...
These people filling that niche is one of the worst case scenarios. About the only vendor taboo they haven't broken (That we know of yet), is straight up ripping people off, or stealing supplies/livestock from others.

Kinda debatable maybe that they've ripped off intellectual property, at least in a legal sense, but I think all their "innovations" were done first by others. The degree to which they've used (IMO) sleazy marketing tactics, spewed utter BS/pseudoscience and attempted to mislead people and target the most uninformed of their potential customer base could be an exception... 

I might just be willing to concede that the shear degree to which they've been willing to do this and more crap, could count as an "innovation" (in our hobby at least). 





Ed said:


> Hmm... it seems that they have never bothered to read the various discussion on the Anthropogenic Allee effect as demonstrated here
> 
> PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect
> 
> As the perception of the risk that there are hybrid animals increases demand on wild caught animals can actually increase....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed



Considering his statement, *"...and all people should freely breed whatever they want in captivity, provided of course, there is no harmful impact on wild populations."* this will be like that game "Scruples", only not a game. 

What will Rick do now  

I think I know


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Hmm... it seems that they have never bothered to read the various discussion on the Anthropogenic Allee effect as demonstrated here
> 
> PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect
> 
> As the perception of the risk that there are hybrid animals increases demand on wild caught animals can actually increase....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I asked Rick about that on the phone. He couldn't provide any kind of real answer so he resorted to being rude and hostile before hanging up in the middle of the conversation a few days ago. His answer to why they charge way more $ for their new mixes is because to him, the hobby only craves the newest of the new stuff. I told him his target customers, newbies, aren't interested in spending over $200 on a frog and instead it is going to increase demand on the cheaper pure lines which is only going to encourage smugglers and increase exportation on the native populations. After explaining that, I asked him again how charging that much for his mixed frogs helps the native populations. His response was "Because that's what we are choosing to charge at the moment." I didn't understand 

Edit: While he isn't doing anything illegal, (anymore? I don't see flydoh advertisements up with no ingredient list. According to FDA labeling regulations, they would have to include their super secret ingredients like everyone else has to I would imagine) Rick sure is a greasy guy...


----------



## Ghost vivs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

An educated person to the "hobby ways" would know that "we" crave new locales or locales rare to the hobby. Made up by Rick and family is not the "new™" the hobby is craving.

Rare has always been in demand. One just needs to read the forums to figure that out.

Man made is not rare, never has been and never will be. One just needs to read the forums to see this also...

You have lied so much Rick that you are starting to lie to yourself about how you are going to make this a profitable business...

Casper


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Hmm... it seems that they have never bothered to read the various discussion on the Anthropogenic Allee effect as demonstrated here
> 
> PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect
> 
> As the perception of the risk that there are hybrid animals increases demand on wild caught animals can actually increase....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed



Exactly! Nice find.

Value is perception. That's a universal. To ignore that is to ignore human economics, which is something you don't want to do when starting a business. Things are desirable only because they are generally perceived to be. Rick's entire success hinges on being able to shift the hobby's perception. He needs to convince a population of hobbyists that a frog that LOOKS like a certain locale/population (to him) is of equal or greater value than the actual frog from that locale/population. I think to some degree he has realized that is an impossibility so his next best bet is to create that perception among the uninformed. When an uninformed individual sees his sight and sees that the designer frog is three times the cost, Rick is hoping that will convey perceived perception. 

The problem is, he's too close to the situation to step back and realize, "Wow, $250 is an absolutely ridiculous amount of money to pay for a tiny frog and only a serious informed hobbyist would really even consider such a purchase...and because of the situation, that person is ineligible." A new buyer may be duped into that perceived value, but as soon as he starts educating himself he's out of the customer base. Ricks business plan needs a steady stream of uninformed buyers willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a frog. That is unsustainable.

Rick, go back to breeding non-crossed frogs, keep your prices low and focus your efforts on the wholesale market. Supply pet stores with inexpensive, healthy, beginner frogs. That, at worst, acts as a sink for pet store frogs that become disposable, and at best really relieves draw on cheap imports. That WILL help wild populations. Five to Ten years of doing that honestly may even help clear your name. It is also about the only hope you have of saving both the company and your child's college fund.

I mean that sincerely.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Exactly! Nice find.
> 
> Value is perception. That's a universal. To ignore that is to ignore human economics, which is something you don't want to do when starting a business. Things are desirable only because they are generally perceived to be. Rick's entire success hinges on being able to shift the hobby's perception. He needs to convince a population of hobbyists that a frog that LOOKS like a certain locale/population (to him) is of equal or greater value than the actual frog from that locale/population. I think to some degree he has realized that is an impossibility so his next best bet is to create that perception among the uninformed. When an uninformed individual sees his sight and sees that the designer frog is three times the cost, Rick is hoping that will convey perceived perception.
> 
> The problem is, he's too close to the situation to step back and realize, "Wow, $250 is an absolutely ridiculous amount of money to pay for a tiny frog and only a serious informed hobbyist would really even consider such a purchase...and because of the situation, that person is ineligible." A new buyer may be duped into that perceived value, but as soon as he starts educating himself he's out of the customer base. Ricks business plan needs a steady stream of uninformed buyers willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a frog. That is unsustainable.
> 
> Rick, go back to breeding non-crossed frogs, keep your prices low and focus your efforts on the wholesale market. Supply pet stores with inexpensive, healthy, beginner frogs. That, at worst, acts as a sink for pet store frogs that become disposable, and at best really relieves draw on cheap imports. That WILL help wild populations. Five to Ten years of doing that honestly may even help clear your name. It is also about the only hope you have of saving both the company and your child's college fund.
> 
> I mean that sincerely.


Their willingness/need to target the most uniformed that will probably regret buying from them if they get seriously into the hobby is unethical in my opinion. At this point I'd rather just see them leave the hobby... But you make excellent points 

...Because stepping back from my outrage for a second, the whole situation is kinda sad. They very well could have become an accepted vendor, and found a place in the hobby, but I think Ego got in the way when there was opposition, the train to legitimacy/acceptance just went off the rails at that point.

Even If they do manage to succeed in basically creating a parallel dart frog hobby and stick around as a vendor, this black mark is going to hound them forever. They'll basically always be the people that split the hobby and possibly ruined it for many people, and to operate under those conditions for years, even after the threads die is going to take its toll one way or another.


----------



## Philsuma

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Exactly! Nice find.
> 
> Value is perception. That's a universal. To ignore that is to ignore human economics, which is something you don't want to do when starting a business. Things are desirable only because they are generally perceived to be. Rick's entire success hinges on being able to shift the hobby's perception. He needs to convince a population of hobbyists that a frog that LOOKS like a certain locale/population (to him) is of equal or greater value than the actual frog from that locale/population. I think to some degree he has realized that is an impossibility so his next best bet is to create that perception among the uninformed. When an uninformed individual sees his sight and sees that the designer frog is three times the cost, Rick is hoping that will convey perceived perception.
> 
> The problem is, he's too close to the situation to step back and realize, "Wow, $250 is an absolutely ridiculous amount of money to pay for a tiny frog and only a serious informed hobbyist would really even consider such a purchase...and because of the situation, that person is ineligible." A new buyer may be duped into that perceived value, but as soon as he starts educating himself he's out of the customer base. Ricks business plan needs a steady stream of uninformed buyers willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a frog. That is unsustainable.
> 
> Rick, go back to breeding non-crossed frogs, keep your prices low and focus your efforts on the wholesale market. Supply pet stores with inexpensive, healthy, beginner frogs. That, at worst, acts as a sink for pet store frogs that become disposable, and at best really relieves draw on cheap imports. That WILL help wild populations. Five to Ten years of doing that honestly may even help clear your name. It is also about the only hope you have of saving both the company and your child's college fund.
> 
> I mean that sincerely.


It takes a lot for me to post on an affiliated site, but this post is...

Perfect in every way, and I've got to credit it. I have yet to see a better or more succinct reply to the Wascher situation.

Thank you.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Philsuma said:


> It takes a lot for me to post on an affiliated site, but this post is...
> 
> Perfect in every way, and I've got to credit it. I have yet to see a better or more succinct reply to the Wascher situation.
> 
> Thank you.


That's high praise coming from you, Phil, thanks. I was at work and in a hurry so didn't get a chance to proofread it before I hit "send". Thanks for seeing through the grammatical errors and misspellings.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

And Ricky's insults have started: …not sure if that is an exoskeleton and if I said it was some nitwit will spend all day grilling us on exoskeleton science when they miss the whole point, who cares.)

So Rick, you're not sure if fruit flies (an insect) have exoskeletons? What drugs are you on? I'm pretty sure I'd like to try some . 

This came from this page: US Dart Frog - Feeder Culturing

One of their worst yet....no data, and (shocker) most of it makes no sense. Also, in my experience melanogaster move more than hydei.

Pure idiocy.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> And Ricky's insults have started: …not sure if that is an exoskeleton and if I said it was some nitwit will spend all day grilling us on exoskeleton science when they miss the whole point, who cares.)
> 
> So Rick, you're not sure if fruit flies (an insect) have exoskeletons? What drugs are you on? I'm pretty sure I'd like to try some .
> 
> This came from this page: US Dart Frog - Feeder Culturing
> 
> One of their worst yet....no data, and (shocker) most of it makes no sense. Also, in my experience melanogaster move more than hydei.
> 
> Pure idiocy.


"Not suprisingly", when I have some time this week I'll have to spend the day grilling them about all this "utter non-sense". "Thus" we shall get to the bottom of this "balderdash".

"For clarity", I don't really care what the Wascher Family Froggy Mill has to say about fly culture, but Mr Phenotype seems to be expecting feedback ...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I almost feel bad for them, oh wait, no I don't. 180 cultures a day, what a joke and a waste of time, energy, and resources.

2ish years experience and they still lack a basic understanding of fruit fly culture techniques and have had to resort to short cycling cultures to keep mites at bay and enough food on the table.

Of course short cycling is nothing new, they've just tried to act like they reinvented the wheel and spun their incompetence into pretending like they're doing something special and revolutionary. 

If they actually knew what they were doing, they could probably do with a 1/3 of the cultures they're making a day. Just think, they'd have all that time and resources they waste available to come up with more dumb names, more web site alterations, new domain names.

Shouldn't have quit your day job Rick.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> And Ricky's insults have started: …not sure if that is an exoskeleton and if I said it was some nitwit will spend all day grilling us on exoskeleton science when they miss the whole point, who cares.)
> .


The item I find interesting is that he is specifically referencing orange color in their media.. That is a very strong indication he is using some source of beta carotene in his media to try and supply pigmentation in the frogs... 
Then he goes on to make a claim that because he cannot see the orange color in hydei, they must 
1) be unable to be used as a source of carotenoids
2) are "tougher". 

This convenience is then used to attempt to hawk their fruit fly nonsense. 
Gut loading fruit flies is a pretty limited method to attempt to add carotenoids to the diet of the frogs.. particularly given that the gut transit time for a fruit fly is about 6 hours... That means that 6 hours after it last fed, the gut contents have all been voided... This also assumes that all of the flies being fed out have recently fed.... If there has been a disruption in feeding (say courting, mating, oviposition....) then the transit time is less than 6 hours. So the value of gut loading fruit flies has to be viewed with no small level of skepticism. This is also before we consider that frogs have real issues metabolizing beta carotene to vitamin A.... 
Second.. I wonder if it ever occurred to him that his hydei didn't have a visible orange abdomen because the volume of the fly is increased compared to a melanogaster? Some mathematical nonsense about the volume cubes... 
Third... that hydei are tougher....What does that mean... are the flies wearing gang colors? or does he mean that it takes a greater amount of force to tear the wings off or perhaps that they can lift heavier weights (which would seem to be self evident given their larger size than melanogaster) or does he mean that they are harder to digest.... the last is clearly not supported by the literature on the nutritional value of fruit flies. Some how he must have missed the literature that indicated that a number of values for chitin underestimated the available protein in some cases as much as 7 fold as compared to earlier analysis..... 

But what the heck do I know... I'm clearly don't have any knowledge on this topic at all... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Of course short cycling is nothing new, they've just tried to act like they reinvented the wheel and spun their incompetence into pretending like they're doing something special and revolutionary.


Let them engage in short cycling. They are going to rapidly select their flies to be intolerant of conditions after the first boom.. specifically things like ammonia. This is exactly how people have massive crashes of their fruit fly cultures. A diverse culture that has a decent production level for 30 days has some built in resilience to do well in cultures post first boom. In this case, if you end up for some reason (say being sick) delay setting up your cultures for a couple of days, you still have flies to use. Genetically intolerant flies will all crash and burn potentially leaving a person with no flies to start new colonies. 
As a further complication, this selection is also typically linked to rapid development (as short as 8-10 days) under good conditions so any leeway for mistakes is risky. 

As a further complication, this also selects for flies that are inefficient feeders so the nutritional quality post emergence can be poorer than those with more resilience.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> And Ricky's insults have started:.


Well, he could be starting to sweat a little considering that the suggestion to think about undercutting him by selling to the wholesellers and pet stores was brought up for second time... Hobbyists can do this because they aren't relying on the animals to pay the bills. It's nice but as a hobby it doesn't have to turn a profit. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I almost feel bad for them, oh wait, no I don't. 180 cultures a day, what a joke and a waste of time, energy, and resources.
> 
> 2ish years experience and they still lack a basic understanding of fruit fly culture techniques and have had to resort to short cycling cultures to keep mites at bay and enough food on the table.
> 
> Of course short cycling is nothing new, they've just tried to act like they reinvented the wheel and spun their incompetence into pretending like they're doing something special and revolutionary.
> 
> If they actually knew what they were doing, they could probably do with a 1/3 of the cultures they're making a day. Just think, they'd have all that time and resources they waste available to come up with more dumb names, more web site alterations, new domain names.
> 
> Shouldn't have quit your day job Rick.


If we're to actually believe their numbers (180 cultures a day, 6000 frogs) then, given 7-10 days to first bloom and keeping the producing cultures for an additional 10-11 days, they would have 3060-3780 cultures on the shelf at any given time. That's one culture per two frogs (or less), which has to be some of the most pitiful production I have ever heard of. Certainly nothing I'd be bragging about if I was trying to sell media.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Let them engage in short cycling. They are going to rapidly select their flies to be intolerant of conditions after the first boom.. specifically things like ammonia. This is exactly how people have massive crashes of their fruit fly cultures. A diverse culture that has a decent production level for 30 days has some built in resilience to do well in cultures post first boom. In this case, if you end up for some reason (say being sick) delay setting up your cultures for a couple of days, you still have flies to use. Genetically intolerant flies will all crash and burn potentially leaving a person with no flies to start new colonies.
> As a further complication, this selection is also typically linked to rapid development (as short as 8-10 days) under good conditions so any leeway for mistakes is risky.
> 
> As a further complication, this also selects for flies that are inefficient feeders so the nutritional quality post emergence can be poorer than those with more resilience....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed



I'm not really worried about THEM doing it as much as I am them advocating the practice to other hobbyists, especially new ones who may be ignorant of the information you just discusses.

It is just another case of them hawking bad advice to make themselves SOUND like they know what they're doing when the opposite is actually true.


----------



## joshbaker14t

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They've dropped the prices on hybrids. Only $130. Guys they didn't sell out at $250. And the coloration, formation, attitude, luminescence, and ability to jump 4 feet...wow. I almost forgot their friendliness

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Oh and just a shout out to Dendro Dave, thank you so much for wading balls deep into the cesspool that is Fauna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a couple really big ideas I want to roll out soon. Feel free to PM me about how you can help. I want to make this a coordinated effort, where everybody participates. But I have relatives coming in and I'll be taking a bit of a break, so I want to get everyone on the same page before we roll it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please note, this idea is a positive thing for OUR community, not an attack on usDartfrog. The intent will be to inform the uninformed as to who responsible breeders and vendors in our community are, where, as near as I can tell, they are sorely under-represented.






With this recent fruit fly madness (talk about wasting...they say they waste less than the "other guys..." yeah okay). I don't get how fauna or whatever that board is doesn't see how this guy is shady. I read their board and I understand to a point that they aren't the dart frog hobby but geez, "cant find anything wrong with their website?"

They couldn't have read it...that baffles me almost as much as Rick does. Not trying to hate on the forum at all, just saying I don't understand how they could see this and still think he has any integrity. 








Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess that "nitwit" educated them on fruit flies and exoskeletons so they wised up and removed those comments. Gotta keep on pretending they're that nice family with the wholesome image.

I have to laugh at their comments about hydei though. I feed hydei to my larger frogs and they're better looking than any of the pictures alive seen of any of their frogs.

Anyone care to hazard a guess why they're not culturing hydei? I know but I'm not tellin.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Anyone care to hazard a guess why they're not culturing hydei? I know but I'm not tellin.


My guess would be to prevent mite issues they are throwing cultures away after 2 weeks and you don't get much yield on Hydei after 2 weeks. Am I close? 

I suspect the reason they make 180 cultures a day is because they are making very small cultures. If you are planning on them only lasting 2 weeks there's no reason to put more than 1/8th cup in there, maybe less. I think I remember them saying that they use plastic bags instead of cups so that probably makes it easy to throw them out.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> I suspect the reason they make 180 cultures a day is because they are making very small cultures. If you are planning on them only lasting 2 weeks there's no reason to put more than 1/8th cup in there, maybe less. I think I remember them saying that they use plastic bags instead of cups so that probably makes it easy to throw them out.


Hooray for plastic waste! -_-


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> Hooray for plastic waste! -_-


Wait ... what? 



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> We at U.S. Dart Frog seek to preserve nature ...


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> Hooray for plastic waste! -_-


Vic Ruutan says: Screw the environment!


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> My guess would be to prevent mite issues they are throwing cultures away after 2 weeks and you don't get much yield on Hydei after 2 weeks. Am I close?


My guess also.

But, they don't have mites! Or do they? 



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> We never use mite spray, do not spray for mites, and *do not have them.* Our cultures are tossed before mites appear and *if they do by leaving a culture too long, then we toss it.*


Of course they do. Everyone has them to some degree, even exceptionally well maintained drosophila genetics labs.

In the pseudoscientific world of the Wascher Family Froggy Mill, they never have the issues that everyone else has ...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The laughable thing is, if you're diligent and careful in making cultures, you can keep hydei around for a considerable amount of time without any of the issues that they claim to have, especially mites. My hydei cultures last me 2 months, my frogs that get them look better than any frog they have ever shared a picture of, and mites aren't a problem.

The problems they are attempting to prevent and talk about others having, exist only because of their ignorance, incompetence, and carelessness. I have maintained the same 3 "lines" of flies for as long as I can remember and have never had a crash. I just have to SMH at how much time and resources they're wasting making sooooo many cultures a day. Unless they're lying and trying to impress someone with sheer numbers, but who would do that..... Oh wait.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Read the review at the top of the page, new guys please be extremely cautious if someone named Matt tells you that he has some Sips for sale. That's sad that they would post that review up there like that instead of correcting Matt that he's got a hybrid mutt and not actual true sips 

Customer Reviews

Edit: I guess we are in the process of the hobby evolving like everything else. I'm glad it's really easy to see (for now) which side people are on. Hopefully I'll run into some froggers at the show in Minnesota tomorrow.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Are they supposed to be True Sips or blue, yellow or green Sips? What is the consensus, that they are now calling mixed frogs locality frogs? Of course when or if that happens is when it really hits the fan


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> Are they supposed to be True Sips or blue, yellow or green Sips? What is the consensus, that they are now calling mixed frogs locality frogs? Of course when or if that happens is when it really hits the fan


I've never saw them advertise any actual sips for sale I guess, just their Frankenstein lookalike. Maybe under the table over there they are called "Shit Sips"? Or maybe "those one frogs from the tank with all the tincs in it over there"?

Edit: BTW, my Bocas del Toro Auratus have been pretty chirpy lately. When they finally come around I would love to offer up offspring on here and I'll even include my special hobbyist discount of $18.95 per frog. That's cheaper than some competitors out there! (http://safedartfrogs.com/3-4-mo-old-frogs.aspx) I will even provide documentation of their health for free of charge and waive the $7.50 box fee for my fwiends! Compared to Ricks ego, these frogs will be TINY! You won't have to worry about one eating you or your dog because my Auratus are SAFE to have as pest (pets)! Compared to an adult imitator, thise frogs will be HUGE LIKE SHAQUILLE O'NEIL because I will be feeding them the biggest adult Hydei I can find. I will also be dusting my flies with METHYLPHENIDATE, the REAL MP! (none of that wussy METHYLPARABEN stuff) so you can see how FAST and BOLD these frogs can really get! I will selectively breed them to munch through the thickest exoskeletons of any bugs that can have exoskeletons on the outside of their bodies because my frogs aren't wussies. And if you don't believe how SAFE my frogs are, I'll record myself spitting your actual frogs out of my mouth and into your shipping container. I'll make sure I don't cycle them down either once they start so I have plenty of extra offspring to replace any that show up to you dead because I'll ship these to you on any of the 52 weeks of the year, even via The Pony Express if that's my only option! When you get your frogs, you might notice them glowing the first night. Don't be alarmed, I recently bought my 11 year old a tattoo gun and we sit in the kitchen and trace the frogs outlines with glow in the dark ink! Raini is honing his skills and isn't as crappy with the tattoo gun anymore so send me a request and we can probably custom color coat any frog you would like and send you the trademark documentation along with the order so you can give them any sassy name you want (because our studies have shown that after you tattoo a frog, that pattern continues to breed true through future generations)! I should mention that we wear gloves when we tattoo these frogs because it stresses them out and our studies have shown that during the tattoo period, the frogs release all of their remaining toxins from their skin.


----------



## joneill809

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

One of DFW's initial hybrid posts was how they were able to create a "BLUE FROST Designer Frog" that was a true sip look-a-like. It was part of their conservation argument that they were able to recreate a less common tinc morph which would eliminate the need for collection of wild individuals. They posted an image of Sean's frogs next to theirs. 

The original page seems to have been taken down, but here is the text from a screen grab:



> Why breed "designer frogs"?
> 
> Conservation, health, leaving natural frog habitats and rain forest jungles undisturbed...and they make great pets!
> 
> Designer Frogs are the captive bred versions of the most rare poison dart frogs. Considering our reference point of caring for thousands of frogs in house right now, we know Designer Frogs are very social, friendly, hardy as any no poison dart frog, and often larger than their parents because of the diversity of genetic mix, and the most secure (i.e., no bullying the young) frog pets. Oh yeah, they are gorgeous and despite the faulty science bantered around, as the offspring of same species dissimnilar parents Designer Frogs are most certainly NOT hybrids. They reproduce easily and naturally. In fact, fertile first clutches of same variety designer/designer breeding are the norm, 100% of the time so far.
> 
> We also know, parental combinations of varieties yield the exact same frog found in the wild. On that basis, why harvest the "rare" versions from the wild as the wild frogs approach protected or endangered species status, and are prone to carry ferocious population destroying diseases. Hence, there is no reason to pillage and potentially destroy the wild ecosystems, and import diseases from the jungle and into the pet trade.
> 
> For Example: From an internet website not U.S Dart Frog comes this:
> 
> <true sip picture scraped from Sean's site>
> 
> Look familiar (below)? (Sure we can get a better match to show you, but we thought we would take a pic of the first, randomly selected specimen, and it is right on!)
> 
> <BLUE FROST picture>


Here's a link to their BLUE FROST hybrid - judge for yourself (personally I don't see the resemblance, and I have "real" true sips ...):
GENESIS, BLUE FROST, tinctorious, blue


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I seem to recall them offering true sips. Do I believe they actually have or had true sips breeding or for sale no. Absolutely nothing about them is credible. All the lies, changes, corrections, deliberate misinformation a leads me to the conclusion that they're completely and often intentionally dishonest. I wouldn't put them past having crossed two morphs to produce a frog that they think looks like a true sip, and then selling it as such. Let's not forget, they said they'd never mix, even though we KNEW they already had, so now when they say they will always be honest about a frogs origin, how can we trust them when they say that? We can, because their word and their reputation is shot.

Matt, if he is an actual person, may or may not have gotten true sips from them. I'm not entirely convinced their three new reviews are real anyway. They read just like every other review they've written for themself.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Here Rick, bookmark this so you can explain to your customers why their F1 offspring they got from you are throwing fugly frogs out. It's nothing new but if you would like to reprove it, we would love to review it 

Basic Principles of Genetics: Mendel's Genetics

Thanks for lowering your prices on your mixes a tad but you are still valuing them astronomically high for what they are. Perhaps you Waschers would have more fun propagating plants and playing with the genetics instead of frogs? That would be a lot less labor and upkeep costs instead of buying top secret media supplies and making so many cultures every day. But then again, having 4 kids in your house to tackle that kind of project cuts way back on labor costs. I'm sorry for my rambling and sarcastic post from a little while ago Rick. I did find it very entertaining to conjure up all kinds of insane ideas and tell them to everyone though. I can see why you would do it every day.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> Are they supposed to be True Sips or blue, yellow or green Sips? What is the consensus, that they are now calling mixed frogs locality frogs? Of course when or if that happens is when it really hits the fan


Probably the Blue Sips that they are offering:

Three (3) ICE Tinctorius Blue Sipaliwini


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This page should prove to be a real hoot when they actually put something on it:

US Dart Frog - Frog Behavior

Please, Please, Mr. Phenotype, enlighten us in the field of frog behavioral science! Tells us what we've all got wrong and what your behavioral studies "prove"! Ooooh, I can't wait!


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> For the discriminating man or woman who enjoys and celebrates exotic living beauty, these are for you. Amazing natural colors and patterns, a terrific showcase frog, and the perfect upscale pet for the home or office.


Are they selling frogs or adult toys? 



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> For the pet frog designer breeder who wants a selection of dominant traits to introduce unique and spectacular patterning and/or coloration, each of these have a unique dominant attribute.


As has been demonstrated many times, Mr. Phenotype hasn't a clue about genetics. I'm sure he thinks that because a trait is visible in these F1 mutts that it is the result of a dominant allele ... how naive. Unless you're doing DNA work, you need more than one generation to determine whether a trait is dominant or recessive. Time will tell Ricky, time will tell.


----------



## NewToFrogs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not sure if anyone has seen this page yet, but I was a little surprised

Designing(breeding) frogs
USA Frog


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Currently using the business name "ArtFrogs". Ricky has to keep changing the name in hopes of avoiding all the bead press. 

And trademarking "Optimally Bred"? Brilliant, Mr. Phenotype, brilliant ...


----------



## aspidites73

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Currently using the business name "ArtFrogs". Ricky has to keep changing the name in hopes of avoiding all the bead press.
> 
> And trademarking "Optimally Bred"? Brilliant, Mr. Phenotype, brilliant ...


The amphibian equivalent to an ambulance chaser!


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Apparently they're planning on opening a retail frog shop over the summer. Can't wait to see how quick that goes out of business. And their website is now only wholesale. So, what the hell are they doing?


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

One thing I don't understand, is how they think that by breeding two diff locales of tincs and naming them something is gonna sell. By that logic I could purchase diff morphs cheaper than one of their "art frogs" and do it myself. It is all very weird to me the thought process behind it. I personally am looking for pure morphs as is the hobby as a whole. It just doesn't seem profitable in long run to run a dart business this way. Oh I'm sure they sell plenty to the uninformed and I spose they have repeat customers cause once youve done busniess with them where else you gonna go. And I personally don't see darts becoming a mainstream pet. The whole thing is very bizarre!!


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> One thing I don't understand, is how they think that by breeding two diff locales of tincs and naming them something is gonna sell. By that logic I could purchase diff morphs cheaper than one of their "art frogs" and do it myself. It is all very weird to me the thought process behind it. I personally am looking for pure morphs as is the hobby as a whole. It just doesn't seem profitable in long run to run a dart business this way. Oh I'm sure they sell plenty to the uninformed and I spose they have repeat customers cause once youve done busniess with them where else you gonna go. And I personally don't see darts becoming a mainstream pet. The whole thing is very bizarre!!


Dart frogs are never going to sweep the nation. "Poison" wasn't the reason why they hadn't. It's because they can be difficult to car for, need expensive, specialized housing, and are tiny. Not to mention most people want a pet you can play with. You can't play with a PDF.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have it on good authority that darts can be handled and form bonds with their owners.


----------



## frogparty

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



epiphytes etc. said:


> I have it on good authority that darts can be handled and form bonds with their owners.


You can teach them to fetch as wells


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> It is all very weird to me the thought process behind it.


The thought process is weird for you because you`re not a 10 year old child who wants
Vic Ruutan to create sparks by snapping his fingers, or looking at a moronic picture of what is clearing not 2 dart frogs at the fountain of youth while Ricks personal artist paints a picture of it.

I can`t believe I just typed that.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Dart frogs are never going to sweep the nation. "Poison" wasn't the reason why they hadn't. It's because they can be difficult to car for, need expensive, specialized housing, and are tiny. Not to mention most people want a pet you can play with. You can't play with a PDF.


I agree with the poison comment.... that is not why they haven't taken over the pet industry. But I'm going to note that several herp retailers are seeing an increase in frog sales. People really like frogs and turtles for some reason so we may see a growth in that area. 

The vast majority of dendrobatids are not that difficult to care for and the housing doesn't have to be expensive. Simple enclosures with a well drained substrate and leaf litter work just fine for most of them. They don't need a replica forest sculpted and created for them, that is something people do for themselves not the frogs. 

You might be surprised at how inexpensively an enclosure that will meet the needs of a dart frog can be put together. 

With the exception of culturing fruit flies, you may put forth less effort than some fish tanks. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dendrobait

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> I agree with the poison comment.... that is not why they haven't taken over the pet industry. But I'm going to note that several herp retailers are seeing an increase in frog sales. People really like frogs and turtles for some reason so we may see a growth in that area.
> 
> The vast majority of dendrobatids are not that difficult to care for and the housing doesn't have to be expensive. Simple enclosures with a well drained substrate and leaf litter work just fine for most of them. They don't need a replica forest sculpted and created for them, that is something people do for themselves not the frogs.
> 
> You might be surprised at how inexpensively an enclosure that will meet the needs of a dart frog can be put together.
> 
> With the exception of culturing fruit flies, you may put forth less effort than some fish tanks.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Indeed. I think the frogs need for small living foods is what does them in though. The minute you mention bugs people don't want to deal with it. I mean we froggers joke about beanbeetles and escapee flies/fungus gnats all the time. Sometimes when I am half asleep 
I see something crawling up the wall and the questions that run through my head are "Is it mine?" "Did I put the lid on that BB culture?"


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Even my friends that think my frogs are awesome think my bug shelf is just horrid. As a whole though I think my frogs are my easiest pets. I hand mist 4 vivs daily and feed every other. It's a routine that takes me about 30 minutes. And it only takes that long because I like to stop and look while I'm doing it. I think it's the fruit fly culturing that scares away most potential hobbyists. They think that they'll just get free and overrun their house.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Creating live food to feed darts frogs is what keeps most people out of the hobby or makes them leave when they get tired of doing it, especially when collections go from 3 or 4 tanks to 15 or 20. That part will never be easy, and I say good, it should take a commitment to keep these guys. And once people that get sucked into their these are effortless pets and then they find out the truth, so many will be dumping them, sure wish they had a buy back policy.
I see the designer darts are now down to $89, they, must be selling like hot cakes.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So are their "BANDIT" Luecs another wild "morph" they've managed to recreate, or did they just get some of those odd looking luecs from that one line in the hobby and brand it "BANDIT" I'm guessing rebranded, since all of the frogs on the site seem to have some BS name attached to them now, even the ones that don't look like hybrids.

It's just awesome how they erase the people's names from these "varieties" that actually were the ones to breed these frogs and get them out into the hobby, basically just taking credit for them, like they were immaculately conceived as "SAFE"/BS brand frogs 

...All that after talking about how much they respect the hobby, and how their frogs came from impeccable breeders 

Stay classy Vic 

Maybe it is best if we do split the hobby up. That way we can put all the unscrupulous retards all in one place and know to stay away from them, and send the new ones that enter the hobby over there, and they'd stay out of the way... but you know they won't. .. Aww if only it were that easy 

There is a reason why they are the first to do all this crap on such a large scale... No one else out of the hundreds, possibly thousands of people who thought about it were big enough jerks to actually go through with it... till now (Just think about that... It is amazing).

P.S. Their "about us" says this...
"The World English Dictionary defines "scientist" as "a person who studies or practises any of the sciences or who uses scientific methods", and we all certainly do that here. "

...Of course, because once you type it on the website it magically, oops I mean scientifically becomes true...or "Proof", just like all the other magical BS they publish, we're expected to just accept it because they've bothered to type it on a website... a guy who has already straight up lied to us. 

Rick needs to review what the scientific method is and how to apply it, and while he is at it maybe he should look up "honesty", cause I'm not sure he has a good handle on it's meaning either LOL.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Mr Phenotype is always playing hide and go seek. Seek him out here:

Koifrog Gallery


----------



## Dart girl

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



epiphytes etc. said:


> I have it on good authority that darts can be handled and form bonds with their owners.



Not to mention will sit in the palm of your hand when trained properly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

A Tinctorius jumping 4', seriously that statement alone tells all how much you don't know, of course that falls in line with your other statements of advice and husbandry. But who am I to argue with someone that has produced thousands...oh yea I have produced maybe a thousand myself but that took 24 years. Really sad starting newbies in the hobby down the wrong path from the start, you should seriously be ashamed of what you have created.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

also, Napoleon never said "a picture is worth a thousand words"

he spoke french.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> A Tinctorius jumping 4', seriously that statement alone tells all how much you don't know, of course that falls in line with your other statements of advice and husbandry. But who am I to argue with someone that has produced thousands...oh yea I have produced maybe a thousand myself but that took 24 years. Really sad starting newbies in the hobby down the wrong path from the start, you should seriously be ashamed of what you have created.


Don't forget to include all of the work put in by the people who pioneered the way into this hobby for all of us to enjoy to begin with. The people who actually traveled to different locations and did their own research. The real scientists. Rick can't even give them proper respect. Besides the confusion that changing all of the names creates, I think it's very disrespectful and a slap in the face to the people who more than paid their dues.


----------



## Ghost vivs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Charlie Q said:


> also, Napoleon never said "a picture is worth a thousand words"
> 
> he spoke french.


Plus back then it would have been a painting...

Casper


----------



## rigel10

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

A small (smart) poll: Who would buy Bandit Leuc or Aurora tinc DFW /USdartfrog/Safedartrogs (?!?) line?


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No one who follows this thread

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> The people who actually traveled to different locations and did their own research.
> 
> Josh, clearly you`ve forgotten that Vic Ruutan traveled to the deepest jungles to discover the fountain of youth guarded by 2 bull frogs....I mean dart frogs.
> 
> Jeez, catch up will ya


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



rigel10 said:


> A small (smart) poll: Who would buy Bandit Leuc or Aurora tinc DFW /USdartfrog/Safedartrogs (?!?) line?


I`ve actually been thinking about the Super Blue & Coffee Auraglow Indigo Watchamacallit Johnny Bag O Doughnuts Polka Dot Bikini Sex Pistols Auratus


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I`ve actually been thinking about the Super Blue & Coffee Auraglow Indigo Watchamacallit Johnny Bag O Doughnuts Polka Dot Bikini Sex Pistols Auratus


Those are smart. You should wait another week though because Vic is lowering the price to $13.99 a pair next week.


----------



## MrBiggs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Those are smart. You should wait another week though because Vic is lowering the price to $13.99 a pair next week.


It's actually $11.99 and it's a SEXED pair to boot!


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

WOW dont you just love thier new BFF frogs. 
USA Frog - Companion Frogs - Two (2) Best Friend Frogs (BFF)


----------



## rigel10

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm waiting for Dillon to "create" a new species of frogs: vegetarian frogs!


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It's getting very difficult to tell what's a designer frog over there. They seem to be removing most references to crossbreeding. Occasionally a frog's description contains the word "proprietary", but unless you know an AuroGlow from an AuroFoil, it's hard to tell what's what.


----------



## rigel10

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Next frog: Giorgio Armani leuc and, for a pair, Dolce&Gabbana tinctorius!


----------



## Brian317

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Moghue said:


> WOW dont you just love thier new BFF frogs.
> USA Frog - Companion Frogs - Two (2) Best Friend Frogs (BFF)


They never cease to amaze me with stupid sales techniques. Don't forget to maintain eye contact for at least 1 hour a day with you BFF frogs, or they won't bond with you and become your friend!!!

I'm just waiting for a "Frogs with Benefits" section -_-


----------



## rigel10

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Moghue said:


> WOW dont you just love thier new BFF frogs.
> USA Frog - Companion Frogs - Two (2) Best Friend Frogs (BFF)


I had not seen before this "news". What can I say? Seriously!
There is no limit for the worst. 
Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum, et tertia non datur.


----------



## mjahnke

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm waiting to start start marketing a version of a plastic hamster ball so the "companion frogs" can be with with their owners 24/7.

I probably shouldn't give them ideas, better go get it trademarked...


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This thread has been a bit quiet and our friend Ricky probably thinks he's flying under the radar ...

Seems that their new strategy is to market what they call "statistical genetic recessive combinations" as new "varieties" of tinctorious.

US Dart Frogs - New Frogs - Captive Bred

First of all, it looks more like the color on some of these is washed out by the flash and overexposure rather than some new phenotype or mutation.

Secondly, Mr. Phenotype still seems to think that the only way an oddball offspring can come about is through recessive traits ... ever heard of mutation Ricky? How about recombination? ... Shall I go on?

Third, *"statistically"* genetic recessive combinations? I wasn't aware that "statistics' were the _cause_ of genetic oddities  Ricky should get a grip on his terminology rather than trying to sound "smart".



USDartFrogs website said:


> Subsequent generations are expected to get lighter, but the first original offspring will have the deepest coloration for perfect breeder stock.


Oh Ricky ... you put your ignorance out there for all to see. Genetics obviously isn't your strong point ... dollars are!

Lastly, it appears that our friend Ricky has stolen the work of others for use on his website:

http://colornames.facts.co/acajoucolorcode/acajoucolor.php


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

On a quick glance it appears that he is attempting to rebrand inbreeding to attempt to fix possible color variation as something else. Didn't he also make claims about how their frogs aren't inbred when compared to the frogs in the hobby? 

Also given his attempted change to the definition naturally occurring color variations isn't the claim of "not mixed or crossbred" useless? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"US Dart Frog Signature - New Frogs - PUREMORPH"
"When you raise over 6,000 frogs, approaching 7,000 as of this writing, there are phentotype variances within the population. We are the first and only dart frog seller or company to actively engage in phenotype studies of a captive bred species such as Tinctorius and Auratus in order to build a breeding program for the best frogs, genetically and visually, thereby yielding the most hardy frog offspring as the absolute best frog pets!"

Seems they aren't selling all that many the 6000# been that for a while now and now they have 1000 more. What are they gonna do with that many frogs when their business goes bust? Are they actually the only ones doin this study? I highly doubt that. Like I said before just plain bizarre!


----------



## JPccusa

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You better use quotations in order to not be mistaken by one of the Wascher.


----------



## waynowon

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If rick is doing something illegal call the authorities, don't do something unethical in return. I'm sure all of the vendors here are far from perfect. If he is doing wrong, tell him, don't threaten his livelyhood. No excuse for it.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Nevermind...


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



waynowon said:


> If rick is doing something illegal call the authorities, don't do something unethical in return. I'm sure all of the vendors here are far from perfect. If he is doing wrong, tell him, don't threaten his livelyhood. No excuse for it.


I don't condone standing by his table steering people away (though not a tear would be shed), but everyone has the right to ask some pointed and legit questions to a vendor in front of other show attendees, and I think people should do that. Also he has done plenty wrong, like straight up lied about "not mixing species or varieties"... 

We have every right to boycott, and educate new people about the lies, sleazy tactics, wrong info and BS pseudoscience... That should hopefully threaten his livelihood, and we are completely within our rights to do just that in those ways...

Hell I'd say at this point it is a moral imperative. These people should not get a moments peace in this hobby. They've broken just about every vendor Taboo there is short of straight up robbing the customers by not sending the frogs, and/or stealing stuff off other vendors tables. Given the lengths they've gone to so far to make a buck, It wouldn't surprise me if those other taboos get broken eventually.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



waynowon said:


> I'm sure all of the vendors here are far from perfect.


Ok, you find me one sponsor/breeder here that is doing all the things these people are doing and I will apologize in writing to the Wachers and publish it here.
It`s your ball.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



waynowon said:


> If rick is doing something illegal call the authorities, don't do something unethical in return. I'm sure all of the vendors here are far from perfect. If he is doing wrong, tell him, don't threaten his livelyhood. No excuse for it.


We should threaten his livelihood. No excuse for the crap he pulls.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, you find me one sponsor/breeder here that is doing all the things these people are doing and I will apologize in writing to the Wachers and publish it here.
> It`s your ball.


Just a heads up, you'll be waiting roughly 7 days for that response... (well, at minimum)


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thread is weird nothing for a while then the bomb goes off. Makes me wonder how many people have gotten warnings and time outs because of it. Thanks DFW for upsetting and alienating from the hobby in general.


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Waynowon 
I can understand if you just started following this thread, that it makes some DB people look mean or maybe petty and sometimes the comments have gotten out of hand. 

This is the thing though, according to their website they are working/worked with as many as 7000 frogs. They have spoken about creating designer frogs/hybrids/line breeding/ etc from the beginning. Then they have shown examples of their creations and offered them for sale. 

It is the most selfish thing I have witnessed to date in this hobby. 

They can sell their "whatever frogs" and you and I as hobbyists will be affected for years as those frogs filter into the general hobby. I do not consider their right to sell the frogs above the rights of thousands of people who care about dart frogs. It would be difficult to "call the authorities" on this huge moral slap in the face to the PDF community.

One of the few things that can be done is to keep this thread going and warn newcomers. The only thing I feel sorry for is all those frogs and what there fate will ultimately be.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> Thread is weird nothing for a while then the bomb goes off.


You are not alone in thinking that... confuses me...



toostrange said:


> Makes me wonder how many people have gotten warnings and time outs because of it.


Really not that many actually. Most people that don't care for the conversation just steer clear of it. Which (obviously) is preferred... The thing to keep in mind is that at this point pretty much all the moderators have either commented in the thread or are subscribed to it... so we see every new post. Stuff _will_ get cleaned up when it is out of line.

Either way, there is a lot of good information here and I think most people appreciate the work that a select few members are doing. That's why the thread is here.


----------



## The Dendrobatidae Project

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Is anyone actually getting frogs from them????


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



waynowon said:


> If rick is doing something illegal call the authorities, don't do something unethical in return. I'm sure all of the vendors here are far from perfect. If he is doing wrong, tell him, don't threaten his livelyhood. No excuse for it.


There is a flaw in the argument here... unethical does not automatically mean unlawful. There is a difference between the two. As an example, if I had the money I could purchase up buildings raise the rents until they couldn't pay, not put any money back into the building in the way of repairs and kick people out onto the street for non-payment. That isn't illegal unless the health code violations become significant but it is unethical. 

The problem with telling them, is that they have made it clear that they don't want to hear directly from members of the forums... they deliberately asked to be banned from here so they can't get pms or e-mails and if you waded through the mess above, you would see that they have not taken kindly to phone calls or e-mails from forum members.. 

All we see are the spin attempts after an issue ends up on the forum. The sheer number of filings for copy rights, the claims the frogs are non toxic and other things are all unethical and clearly so....but not illegal. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Totally agree Tom thread should be here. When I first started reading thought people were well no other way to describe it s$&@€y. But have come to see that some of you that have been in this hobby way longer than me called it. I mean to the T. The easy fix of cheap frogs is alluring to lots of people. But it seems to me if the frogs I want are outta my price range now I save! Seem to appreciate them that much more. I think DFW thought they would sweep the hobby with low prices. Glad it didn't work for them. And just wanna say thanks to you " old timers" for seein through their bs from beginning. The whole we're not makin hybrids then doin it when they know how the hobby in general feels bout it should have expected backlash.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



The Dendrobatidae Project said:


> Is anyone actually getting frogs from them????


Well their initial offerings here sold well I think. They had some nice looking frogs and at the time we didn't know they were going to stab the hobby in the back and go all rogue/sleazy on us... So bummer for those people.

Then I think some jumped on the super cheap frogs when they cut prices, but now my guess is most of those regret it.

Seems like their sales are coming from selling to large wholesalers who then flip the frogs. This is probably the only way they'll stay in business, and kinda scary since those are the people who sell to the uniformed. We really need to try to steer the wholesalers away from dealing with these people. 

Even if we can't, I think they are going to find it hard to sell enough frogs at wholesale prices to stay in business. I don't think the hobby is large enough to support their 6000+ and another 1000+ new frogs a year entering the hobby, especially when they won't give out line info and are trying to rebrand everything in a hobby where who it came from is usually real important.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> We really need to try to steer the wholesalers away from dealing with these people.


The only way that this will happen is if people sell to the wholesalers at a lower price and get overthemselves on the negative campaign on selling to "frog flippers"... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They're offering up little 2-3 month oow froglets on their wholesale page too. Q1? lol and their prices continue to decrease. Having problems selling your "better than the rest" frogs Rick? I think we can all see the trend. Inventory exponentially increasing, prices deflating. I wonder if there's any real life examples of what results when this happens? Can you guys feel the balloon stretching and stressing out? How much wiggle room is left before it pops???


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That new tinc isn't a wild morph or anything new....just a mutation or who knows what.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

From the company that just a few short months ago declared Magnolia leaves bad for frogs:



USDartFrogs website said:


> Deep South Magnolia - LeafBedding.com
> 
> Cheap, bulk, hardwood and magnolia Leaves for sale - coming soon!


US Dart Frogs - Deep South Magnolia - LeafBedding.com


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They can't have return customers. I frequent the vendor sites I use and if every other month they changed stances on husbandry practices I would not return. Something new is one thing but the its bad, it's not, we don't use it now we do crap seems to me would be bad business practice.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> Thread is weird nothing for a while then the bomb goes off. Makes me wonder how many people have gotten warnings and time outs because of it. Thanks DFW for upsetting and alienating from the hobby in general.


I don't think it's anything nefarious and I think the mods have been more than lenient with this particular thread.

I've attribute the recent sporadic activity to the fact that the Waschers activity has also been sporadic and that most criticism has already been stated (repeatedly).

As for me, my activity has been limited by a heavy workload which leaves me with little time to waste on the day to day douchebaggery of the Wascher Institute for Pseudoscience and Polymorphic Bullshit


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh, I don't either don't get me wrong I understand the action here reflects their actions. I believe they think we forget them cause there isn't many posts Then they do some weird stuff and ends up getting heated here. which is understandable. I do not condone nor agree with their practices.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They actually registered leafbedding.com

The money wasted on stupid domain name registrations is laughable...


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> They actually registered leafbedding.com
> 
> The money wasted on stupid domain name registrations is laughable...


I've long suspected there was more money in the leaf business than the frog business anyway.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> I've long suspected there was more money in the leaf business than the frog business anyway.


Maybe for DFW/USArtFrog.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The BS just keeps getting deeper over in the Wascher's World of Pseudoscience and Scientific Illiteracy. Put on your boots folks:



USDartFrogs website said:


> Question:
> 
> "On your site you have the Topaz and Indigo... I can't decide between the two. But then I looked and saw they are both technically Super Blues. So if I bought half and half I wouldn't be mixing morphs would I? I mean they are all Super Blues? Because that would be awesome!!!!!!
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Sorry for all these questions, I just want this setup to be perfect "
> 
> U.S. Dart Frog Answer:
> 
> In response to your question, our TOPAZ and INDIGO frogs are not the same as the Super Blue, but are a subset of it and have direct ties to it. Our TOPAZ and INDIGO are believed to be superior in health, quality, genetics, hardiness, size and appearance, as a result of being OPTIMALLY BRED™ (not cross-bred) mentioned above and further discussed below. (We did not advertise the differences early on because we were still gathering our data.)
> 
> The term SUPER BLUE was coined by an importer as a trademark for their frog just like we use our own TOPAZ and INDIGO trademarks for our frogs. If you look at our two frogs pictured here on the same leaf. They are different, and the lighting is almost identical.
> 
> As we said before in the context of our FrogMatch™, we simply do not like the "you get what you get approach" offered by so many frog sellers. We also knew the auratus was being inbred into oblivion and others out there have written articles on this very subject, so we wanted to "swim up stream" in pursuit of genetic purity to the extent we could. (Note: Many of the frog lines out there have been inbred into decay and the frogs are noticeably smaller and do not breed well at all.)
> 
> We started with the best and biggest frogs we could find as our breeders and built UP. The Topaz and Indigo frogs (and our reviews) are good examples. We breed for the best. As in our other projects, we followed an approach that was discovered during our phentotype mapping studies. From what we observed, we took different strains of the original super blue, selected and separated the high and low iridophore frogs from the high and low color contrast frogs from within the groups we bought. At first we did this simply by phenotype (appearance) as mentioned, until we started to see the offspring. The offspring gave us more focus, because we knew we were onto something. The offspring had better coloration and early patterns were discernable (AURAFOIL) in some and in the others they were flat (AURAGLOW), and we had the best parents we could find. As it turns out, the offspring are also more hardy and robust! So, we continued to breed the highs and lows to get the AURAGLOW and AURAFOIL as described and we have today.
> 
> The TOPAZ and INDIGO are high iridophore and lower iridophore, and lower color depth and higher color depth, in an inverse relationship. (As iridescence goes up color depth goes down and vice versa.) The best way to explain this by example is as follows. One of our company board members had worked as senior management for one of the largest printers (high quality ink on paper) in the world, where ink color was critical, but only one factor. The paper stock was sold as a commodity and had very different reflectance properties for several reasons including, but not limited to, wood fiber quality, coating purity, even humidty concerns during manufacture. All print jobs, even from lot to lot on the most sophisticated machines in the world, had different outcomes if the print variables were not carefully controlled. The factors used to mate the variables to achieve print consistency over time (year to year for every customer print title) remains a trade secret we cannot share here. Suffice it to say, there was a lot of science in reflectance, color and consistency, like we strive for here.
> 
> For example, compare a National Geographic to a Sports Illustrated to any teen magazine. The ink is the same, but color and reflectance is different, and so too is depth of color, and the quality of the paper has a lot to do with it. Anyway, the high/low of the frog iridescence and color is quite similar to reflectance of ink on paper combinations. While not associated with the pigments, it is associated with the paper, and the various frog skin layers (coloration reference above) act similarly. Thus, in the print setting the reflectance of the paper is the perfect medium to compare the iridophore layer of frog skin. In essence, we applied what we know about the mega-billion dollar print industry to frog breeding for coloration and reflectance (iridescence).
> 
> Thus, to say our TOPAZ and INDIGO are all super blues the answer would be technically "no" and "yes" as expected with any generation after the original, but they do have the best of the ORIGINAL super blue lineage from the original importer. We Optimally Bred, NOT cross-bred, to get the TOPAZ and INDIGO frogs. Frankly, we think ours look better than the originals and appear to be an upgrade as desired. In the end, everyone will one day view the auratus as a polymorphic frog according to the experts, visible in numerous variants in both color range and pattern, with visual vibrance and frog size (not fatness because auratus have high metabolisms anyway) being a couple key indicators of health. We also breed for that simplicity, because these are The Coolest Pets in the World!™
> 
> Thanks for asking.


US Dart Frogs - Auratus - by AGE


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks for the cloudy brain effect before bed dfw.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sad to say that they clearly don't understand coloration in amphibians much less anurans... For example, the shade of blue isn't necessarily determined by the number of iridophores...... It may not have anything at all to do with the number of iridophores... 

I would love to see how they determined the number of iridophores were the actual cause.... 

And once again, we have inbreeding to "fix" traits.. Inbreeding is bad enough before one uses it to fix specific traits.. thus reducing the genetic variation for other important things like disease resistance... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> The BS just keeps getting deeper over in the Wascher's World of Pseudoscience and Scientific Illiteracy. Put on your boots folks:
> 
> 
> 
> US Dart Frogs - Auratus - by AGE


Yikes! Clear as mud, eh? 

As far as I can figure, they are sick of how auratus are being linebred into oblivion so they are...uh...selectively breeding...a line of...uh...linebred crossbred stock? There's just so much more factual information here about printing ink than there is about the actual frogs. 

I guess if you refuse to recognize distinct populations, then you cant possibly tell someone whether or not a frog came from that population. I think they are saying that once it passes through the Wascher warehouse breeding process, it's something entirely different. Actually, I might agree with that.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I can tell by the colors of the Auratus that they are at peace and are not ready to jump.

Because we all know that changes their colors.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I love it when Ricky and Dillon put their ignorance on full display. They claim to be "scientists" yet seem to have no clue as to what the term "statistically significant" means. They just like to throw around terms that they think make them sound smart ...

Then of course there's the usual laughable hype from Mr. Phenotype ... "pure, throughbred breeder frog parents" ... lol. I'm sure he meant thoroughbred, but either way it's both hilarious and pathetic.



USDartFrogs website said:


> When you raise over 6,000 frogs like we do, (approaching 7,000 as of this writing), there are natural variations in appearance (phenotype) within a frog population. *These statistically significant, genetically recessive, combinations from our pure, throughbred, breeder frog parents directly prove the merit our intended cause. * These are perfect examples of a "new" variety of the same polymorphic species, and the main reason we are against importing wild caught jungle frogs. In short, captive breeding over wild capture!


----------



## Brian317

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hey DFW...It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt!


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I think my favorite part of their website is where it states
"ALL sales are confidential."
They know that by buying from them you are joining their ostracized circle.
On another note it looks as though they are really starting be buried under frogs that are getting older. 
Taking that path of if we can't just sell them maybe if we try and give some away people will choose us.
US Dart Frogs - PAIRS TO TRIOS WEEKEND SALE!
And since I hadn't seen this before and I had a laugh figured other should to.
SAFE frogs
What potential buyer really gives a crap if you have your SAFE name registered.
You try to hard Rick, but please keep pushing so you make more people walk away.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Brian317 said:


> Hey DFW...It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt!


Normally I'd agree with that sentiment, but these people have proven repeatedly they are their own worst enemy 

Tricky Ricky loves to hear himself talk, or type I guess... either way it just provides us with more ammo


----------



## Hayden

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I clicked on the link just for entertainment purposes and noticed in the description of the Azureus it states: "have no relation to wild caught frogs." No relation? Then where the hell do they come from? And the names they give the frogs are RIDICULOUS! They remind me of something a 7 year old would come up with.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

SAFE is now registered with Homeland Security?? really, Homeland Security.....I didn't realize the rest of our frogs are considered a terrorist threat.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I know mine decimate entire cultures.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> I know mine decimate entire cultures.


That made me giggle a little too much. Thanks for the laugh!


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> I think my favorite part of their website is where it states
> "ALL sales are confidential."
> They know that by buying from them you are joining their ostracized circle.
> On another note it looks as though they are really starting be buried under frogs that are getting older.
> Taking that path of if we can't just sell them maybe if we try and give some away people will choose us.
> US Dart Frogs - PAIRS TO TRIOS WEEKEND SALE!
> And since I hadn't seen this before and I had a laugh figured other should to.
> SAFE frogs
> What potential buyer really gives a crap if you have your SAFE name registered.
> You try to hard Rick, but please keep pushing so you make more people walk away.


Haha yeah, look at 

US Dart Frogs - Trademark Names

You can scroll down and get "All sales are confidential." and "We want to be known as the source of OUR frogs because of our commitment to outstanding quality, and professional customer service." on the screen at the same time. Make up your mind Rick.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Check out this extreme phenotypic variation I just created. What's up now Rick, I didn't even need more than 1 frog to prove I can create various phenotypes. Here's my little trick I like to call "camera flash on/flash off"...




Come on Rick... #Brodoyouevenphenotypicvariate


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If I'm not mistaken F1 parents bred in house means that they are breeding from a WC stock. Was it not them that stated we should not be using WC frogs. 
http://safedartfrogs.com/US-Dart-Frog-Signature.aspx


Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> If I'm not mistaken F1 parents bred in house means that they are breeding from a WC stock. Was it not them that stated we should not be using WC frogs.
> US Dart Frogs - PUREMORPH Signature
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


"F1" is just one of the many terms they are using incorrectly.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Mr. Phenotype, the Mr. Miyagi of dart frogs ... "flash on, flash off"




JayMillz said:


> Check out this extreme phenotypic variation I just created. What's up now Rick, I didn't even need more than 1 frog to prove I can create various phenotypes. Here's my little trick I like to call "camera flash on/flash off"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on Rick... #Brodoyouevenphenotypicvariate


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> If I'm not mistaken F1 parents bred in house means that they are breeding from a WC stock. Was it not them that stated we should not be using WC frogs.
> US Dart Frogs - PUREMORPH Signature
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


Actually the usage by the hobby your indicating isn't correct. See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/89636-filial-generation-numbers.html 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Actually the usage by the hobby your indicating isn't correct. See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/89636-filial-generation-numbers.html
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed. I was unaware. Gonna pm you for a few questions rather than dilute the thread with unrelated conversation. 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

An update of business names used, domains used, and trademarks: 

*Business names used:*
Frogdudes
Koifrog
Designer Frogs
US Dart Frog
USA Frog
USA Frog Zoo
Frog Zoo
Frog Warehouse
Art Frog Warehouse
Dart Frog Warehouse 
Buy Dart Frogs
Safe Dart Frogs 
Art Frogs

*Domains used in the past or currently owned:*
LeafBedding.com
frogdude.com
designerfrogs.com
shipyourfrogs.com
frogdayus.com 
usafrogzoo.com 
shopdartfrog.com 
shopdartfrogs.com 
petdartfrog.com 
frogzoo.org 
dartfrog.co
buydartfrogs.com
dartfrogwarehouse.com
safedartfrogs.com
wascher.com/usafrogfrogzoo.html

*Some of Mr. Phenotypes trademarks (aka - things to avoid):*
Native 
Iridiphore
Aurafoil
Auraglow
Auradeep
Optimally Bred
Puremorph
Mango
Aero
Midnight 
Coral 
Aztec
Ice Creme
Bandit 
Carina 
Ice
Acajou
Lunar Leopard
Lunar Bee
Creme
Coral 
Sapphire
Blue Frost
Indigo
Signature
Artfrogs
Safe
A1
A1 Sexed Pairs
KoiFrog 
Frogsafe
T-bag
Pillow
Color
Naturist
Holy Spirit
Perfect Balance
Tadcube
OneHop
Arrive2Thrive
FrogMatch
Go-to -Market
Fly-doh
Genesis 
Vic Ruutan
Frogzoo
Sunbee
Neon 
Sunkist 
Evergreen
Onyx
Peridot
Deepsea
Eclispse
Aurora
Lunar Grey
Malibu 
Epoc
Apollo
Jalapeno
Jade 
Patriot
Samurai 
Denim
Aztec 
Midnight
Neptune
Zigzag
Santa


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just counted 45 different name`s for probably 10 frogs

I don`t know if I should thank you or not Donn.

Ok, thanks


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"Each and every frog we produce, including all of the NATIVE varieties are GUARANTEED perfectly healthy and a SAFE captive bred frog. Each is raised properly without methylparaben (MP), and right here in the good ole USA by us–US Dart Frog! NO other seller can or will say that!"

Uhh…no. I'm pretty sure we all can say that except you..except we (as a hobby) may choose to test our frogs rather than (possibly, and most likely) falsely claiming that they are all "perfectly healthy." But yes, you can keep your SAFE branding. MP? I don't use it, lots of people don't. And yes, my frogs were bred in the US too, like many thousands of others'. 

Stop trying to be "special." The only "special" thing you're doing is hybridizing.
And NO other seller can or will say that!


----------



## Hayden

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What does he mean by Native varieties?

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Hayden said:


> What does he mean by Native varieties?
> 
> Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


He means to be intentionally vague (IMO), and to continue steering away from accepted hobby terms like "morph" and/or "Locality" (IMO). The way they probably see it is all these frogs are all "native varieties" because even the hybrid's parents were a "native variety", thus that status in their mind probably, is transferred to all the offspring. Plus in their mind it seems, these frogs are all "polymorphic" which they seem to believe means that they can spontaneously or at least over time through successive generations create new "varieties" that in their minds are just as valid as our "morphs" or "localities" if pseudoscience is properly applied to mate selection


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So these Jackwagons are telling people they don`t sell their BFF companion frogs for breeding but it`s perfectly ok to keep them in the same tank, gee I wonder what could happen if someone got a pair?

US Dart Frogs - Two (2) Best Friend Frogs! - Companions

EDIT- I can`t believe I just said BFF Companion frogs


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> EDIT- I can`t believe I just said BFF Companion frogs



Leper! Unclean!.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> EDIT- I can`t believe I just said BFF Companion frogs


I'm not gonna' lie. That's gotta' be a bit of a personal defeat.



I hadn't been to the site for a while but some good may have come out of this thread. I find this statement on the site...

*All NATIVE brand US Dart Frog breeding is within species, and done sustainably to replace the need for wild caught imports. *

...and all the categories of frogs for sale seem to be labelled "Native" with the exception of "Collectors Varieties" which still _seem_ to be legitimate varieties. Can anyone verify that they have stopped selling crossbreeds or is that wishful thinking?


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Flavor of the week alert:

Now they're calling ALL of their frogs "designer frogs" and have removed references to accepted locality names. Sounds like they're attempting to muddy the waters prior to rolling the mutts back out for sale.

Also some new trademark, domain, and business names from Mr. Phenotype. Current business name is Designer Frogs, default domain is designerfrogs.com, some new trademarks include "THOROUGHbred", "Truemorph",and "Frogs Buy The Box"

... I'm still here Ricky ...


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Been a while around here...

Look at prices on their sites now... they have an "under $15" section:
U.S.A. Frog - DESIGNER Frogs - Search

I'd say the doomsday clock is nearing midnight for them...


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

One can only hope and pray!


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> Been a while around here...
> 
> Look at prices on their sites now... they have an "under $15" section:
> U.S.A. Frog - DESIGNER Frogs - Search
> 
> I'd say the doomsday clock is nearing midnight for them...


Yeah, when you have to resort to wholesale prices just to get retail customers, things are getting lean.

Good.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I`m almost tempted at those prices.

Almost

Vic Ruutan says "we`re screwed"


----------



## joshbaker14t

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Deal Alert! one Azureus for $15 or 2 best friend azureus for $75!!


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



joshbaker14t said:


> Deal Alert! one Azureus for $15 or 2 best friend azureus for $75!!


How much for the "Frenemy" package? You know, where the two frogs still hang out but make back handed compliments and roll their eyes a lot?


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I`m almost tempted at those prices.
> 
> Almost
> 
> Vic Ruutan says "we`re screwed"


John I will be happy to sell you a multitude of frogs at those prices... any old time. However they will have odd names like D. tinctorius "cobalt" or "powder blue" ;-)


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thank you for the offer Sally, but it`s only Aqua Velva, Jelly Doughnut, Little Pink Houses, Purple Haze, Franks n Beans frogs for me


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Thank you for the offer Sally, but it`s only Aqua Velva, Jelly Doughnut, Little Pink Houses, Purple Haze, Franks n Beans frogs for me[/QUO
> Damn you have Franks and Beans frogs, i have to get as many as i can from you LMAO


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Business Name of the Week:

*Designer Colorful Pet Frogs*
@
designerfrogs.com

So, naturally, that means that "Designer" had to be trademarked 

On the bright side, they haven't attempted to sell any mixed locality mutts in quite some time. But, that poses the question of where all of those frogs are now...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ya know Donn I know you`re busy and have a life and all but you really need to check in here more often

If you leave me in charge Tom will kill me


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Business Name of the Week:
> 
> *Designer Colorful Pet Frogs*
> @
> designerfrogs.com
> 
> So, naturally, that means that "Designer" had to be trademarked
> 
> On the bright side, they haven't attempted to sell any mixed locality mutts in quite some time. But, that poses the question of where all of those frogs are now...


The interesting thing about that is we can prove that term isn't their intellectual property at all. We coined it. 

Why trademark it in the first place? Nobody would want to be remotely associated with anything related to any one of the Wascher 47,000 different business names, trademarks, etc.

Ok well, TBH, I did kinda like T-bag™


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Some things are conspicuously missing these days too. I haven't wasted much time looking, but I can't find any links to their bastardization of the Lotter's literature with the exception of a few brief mentions of it.

Links back to Wascher.com, especially the stuff we can't talk about are all conspicuously missing.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They have a Facts, Notices, and Legal Issues page now. Apparently it will be updated by their "General Counsel". Wonder who that'll be.....


U.S.A. Frog - DESIGNER Frogs


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> They have a Facts, Notices, and Legal Issues page now. Apparently it will be updated by their "General Counsel". Wonder who that'll be.....
> 
> 
> U.S.A. Frog - DESIGNER Frogs


I saw that too. I wasn't going to mention it because when we've jumped on upcoming pages in the past, Ricky has chickened out on actually following through with a lot of them.

This one should should be good for some lulz. No other dart frog related business I've ever seen has displayed the need to openly profess the need to correct facts, provide legal disclaimers, threats, innuendos, or a need to set the record straight. Most prefer to stand on their own merits without the need for such garbage.

As litigious as Ricky is, I'm actually surprised he hasn't sued or threatened to sue someone by now. I suspect the reason why is because he is very afraid of one very important problem.

*DISCLOSURE.*


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

BTW - here is the link to the Trademark Application Process for Designer

TESS -- Error

There will come a point in which protests against the trademark can be lodged. I'll be following it closely. Seeing as we came up with it here first, I doubt Ricky can make any claim to it being his intellectual property.

Poke around in this patent, especially look at the TSDR bar and the documents and the Specimen submitted. Very enlightening. This is all available on a government public website for anyone to view. You can also look at some of the other patents Ricky has filed for. There is all kinds of Great information available here.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I kinda feel like some of you guys who actively breed frogs should start marketing your froglets as SAFERTM

In other news, they say that studies prove that MP is bad for frogs. Ricky: Congratulations for extrapolating results from fruit flies, cross phylum (might want to know some basic taxonomy), and the topper: from a Wikipedia article. Now, I like Wikipedia, but it doesn't "prove" anything. You're a scientist, cite primary literature. Oh wait, no you're not!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I can't wait to see what excuses they give for why they've changed their name so many times in the past.

Th GC/Legal page now includes a link for you to ask some questions. I can think of quite a few good ones.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> I kinda feel like some of you guys who actively breed frogs should start marketing your froglets as SAFERTM


No need, that should be pretty much understood...


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ha. Haha. Ha. 

U.S.A. Frog - DESIGNER Frogs


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Ha. Haha. Ha.
> 
> U.S.A. Frog - DESIGNER Frogs


So basically he and his family have been bullied because of the hobby's resistance to newcomers, when all they've done is blamelessly been crusaders of truth, honesty and discovery. They've humiliated the scientific minds by proving that crossbred frogs are not weak and sickly and therefore have been targeted. He's looked up the IP address of anyone who's emailed him with criticism and is threatening legal action now that "bullying laws have teeth", and will likely "out" a well known seller as a flipper if provoked.

Man, I just want to address every single false implication with a counterpoint, but why bother? It's all in this thread so...

BUMP.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

(IN MY OPINION) Wow... that's one hell of a delusional, egomaniacal/self-aggrandizing rabbit hole of a rant Ricky wrote for us there. (IN MY OPINION)

You'd think someone with all those credentials would have a basic understanding of the scientific method. Like knowing that a bunch of tinc morphs jammed into an underplanted viv managing to survive for a couple months doesn't = "proof" of anything other then you can do something stupid (IMO), and possibly get away it for a couple months (MAYBE). Sorry we didn't wanna encourage people to practice what was in our opinion bad husbandry/pseudoscience (IMO)... What were we thinking 

I don't condone the threats, and what not, but you can't tell an entire hobby community to go screw itself, do a bunch of things that are totally against the SOP of said community and not expect to take some flak for it, especially when operating on a large commercial scale. 


They may claim to have no part in the hobby and/or the community but the simple fact is what they do can effects us. Plus if I remember correctly (and I'm pretty sure I do), didn't he say something to us about not producing hybrids? ...And then went right ahead and did it?

I figured it was only a matter of time before they started making legal threats... Well I have no assets in my name (Thanks Mom and Dad!), But I won't just lay down and take it if it comes to that (won't be the first time I've been sued (Didn't go well for them)).... Getting anything out of me would be like trying to draw blood from a stone.

But just in case I guess we better brush up on our State's Anti-slapp laws, State Anti-SLAPP Laws | Public Participation Project

...and get familar with https://www.eff.org/

This is interesting too...
Anonymous Web Editor Defeats Unmasking Effort | Public Participation Project


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> So basically he and his family have been bullied because of the hobby's resistance to newcomers, when all they've done is blamelessly been crusaders of truth, honesty and discovery. They've humiliated the scientific minds by proving that crossbred frogs are not weak and sickly and therefore have been targeted. He's looked up the IP address of anyone who's emailed him with criticism and is threatening legal action now that "bullying laws have teeth", and will likely "out" a well known seller as a flipper if provoked.
> 
> Man, I just want to address every single false implication with a counterpoint, but why bother? It's all in this thread so...
> 
> BUMP.


Might as well, then we could see his next and more asinine post!


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> (IN MY OPINION) Wow... that's one hell of a delusional, egomaniacal/self-aggrandizing rabbit hole of a rant Ricky wrote for us there. (IN MY OPINION)
> 
> You'd think someone with all those credentials would have a basic understanding of the scientific method. Like knowing that a bunch of tinc morphs jammed into an underplanted viv managing to survive for a couple months doesn't = "proof" of anything other then you can do something stupid (IMO), and possibly get away it for a couple months (MAYBE). Sorry we didn't wanna encourage people to practice what was in our opinion bad husbandry/pseudoscience (IMO)... What were we thinking
> 
> I don't condone the threats, and what not, but you can't tell an entire hobby community to go screw itself, do a bunch of things that are totally against the SOP of said community and not expect to take some flak for it, especially when operating on a large commercial scale.
> 
> 
> They may claim to have no part in the hobby and/or the community but the simple fact is what they do effects us. Plus if I remember correctly (and I'm pretty sure I do), didn't he say something to us about not producing hybrids? ...And then went right ahead and did it?
> 
> I figured it was only a matter of time before they started making legal threats... Well I have no assets in my name (Thanks Mom and Dad!), But I won't just lay down and take it if it comes to that.... Getting anything out of me would be like trying to draw blood from a stone.
> 
> Guess we better brush up on our State's Anti-slapp laws, State Anti-SLAPP Laws | Public Participation Project
> 
> ...and get familar with https://www.eff.org/
> 
> This is interesting too...
> Anonymous Web Editor Defeats Unmasking Effort | Public Participation Project


Oh how I love your posts on this thread!


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I've been away from the forums for a few months and now that I've returned I can't believe these people are still at it. WOW....I'm speechless. Even a politician is right every once in a while, even by accident. The Waschers however continue to spew out false information and pseudoscience to uphold their viewpoint. Hey Rick, I bet at this point you wish you would have spent that money on Dillon's college education.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Did anybody here really wish to them that they'd die in a fiery car crash etc? I wouldn't put it past them to fabricate this s***.


Also Ricky, nobody would've disliked you for starting to breed and sell frogs if you just bred frogs etc, without claiming to be better and smarter than everybody. We have no problem with new people starting to breed and sell their frogs. Dillon's early posts here make it seem like he wanted to be an honest frog peddler and breeders. Honestly, I highly suspect that the turn for the worse began when you, Rick, put your hands in it. Why not let your sons handle what is supposedly their business, answer the phone and the emails? You're hiding something.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Could you imagine Rick and 20 froggers in a courthouse together?? The judge would be reading both of those longass threads for countless hours and look up and ask what the hell is wrong with every single one of us lol. He probably does have a case against whoever sent him death threats I would imagine but come on, he chose not to defend himself when shutting his forum account down so what difference would it make what is said on a hobby board when he's not even a member of the hobby anyways? He would win a couple petty squabbles and lose a few as well thanks to the record keeping of others. Talk about a huge waste of time. Court over frogs? Haha the mods will be generating all kinds of revenue from traffic after a story that like happens  It will be interesting to see in 3 years from now if that's all a bluff or if he really has that much extra time. I'm not the most tech savvy person, but isn't using an IP address for some sort of proof kinda worthless anyways because you could just use a proxy? Unless this is just a way for Rick to get their name going around again since the thread was starting to die?

Edit: "Your honor, I'd like to file a counter claim of false advertisement that all of said frogs are guaranteed perfectly healthy and am requesting each and every one of them to be tested at the companies expense." hahahaha


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Let's preserve the legal threats for all to see:


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So he is deciding to no longer change the name of his company as a method to avoid negative publicity on the internet. Interesting..... 


I do find it amusing that since he had interactions ("knew") some researchers he is able to determine that those of us on the forum who have a scientific orientation are "frustrated and self appointed" 

The only frustration I have is with those who make claims that are unsupported or unsupportable by the literature regardless of who they are. Anyone who is versed in science should be obligated to correct misinformation whenever and wherever it is encountered since to allow incorrect information to persist is to contribute to greater levels of ignorance. 

As for self appointed accusation, that claim is at best specious and in any case irrelevant since the only way to avoid being "self appointed" is to deliberately withhold knowledge from others until elected to that position without having shared any of the information that would justify the nomination.. So its kind of a problem to make that accusation. 

I would be curious to see how he intends to prove that his frogs are healthier and safer than those of other breeders. The establishment of the standard should be interesting from a scientific point of view. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I e-mailed them a while back and asked about the health guarantee, reply was vague and basically said they guarantee their health. I replied to the e-mail with are you doing fecals and swabbing for chytrid. No reply.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The typical American persona, when all else fails I'll just sue you all. This guy is losing it. Obviously a result of a failing business. But hey why should he show any accountability for his lies or shady dealings.


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"We are the ONLY frog seller that offers a SATISFACTION GUARANTEE. 


ALL our reviews are REAL of course!


Rick Wascher, Pro Bono General Counsel for USA Frog & Private Counsel for the Frog Dudes"

This is as far as I got. 
Kind of confused…by how dumb this sounds. I don't understand them at all...


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just stick to the truth and you have no worry about legal liabilities.

Apparently - they can't handle the truth (and that's not an invitation for memes).

s


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just so I don't receive threats of a lawsuit for posting captures of threats of a lawsuit ... the images in my previous post are from designerfrogs.com

U.S.A. Frog - Legal Mumbo Jumbo


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sorry kindle being grumpy,so can't quote from their page. So they bought 50 frogs from an individual and later "discovered" they were a flipper???? 
I guess "commen sense" is questionable....


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Dont forget that their frogs are not related to wc frogs either. Their family tree must be rooted in a test tube? 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

On page one of the retort, Rick states that "there is no such thing as a hobby business", then he says on page two that their original intent was to create a hobby based business. 
I don't understand the logic.

He also mentions that "In the beginning we chose a name we could easily abandon if things got too oppressive..."
Why would you do this unless you knew that your business plans would create oppression? Does this mean that he was aware of how unappreciated his standards would be in comparison to the widely accepted norms for this niche of the herp world?


----------



## Jeremy M

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"It is odd though. I spent decades as an Intellectual Property Attorney and patent attorney..." 

Funny, I don't find that odd at all. Actually, it makes the most sense out of every single thing I've ever heard you say.

Chances are I'm going to be hammered down the line for misquoting what he meant though. After all, I am meddling with an experienced pro in his own game...


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Alexmenke92 said:


> "We are the ONLY frog seller that offers a SATISFACTION GUARANTEE.


That statement always has struck in my craw.

For a long time he was very vague about the terms of that guarantee. It was a guarantee of satisfaction with no specific recourse if a customer was unsatisfied. He's recently added more specific terms and they are pretty laughable. They will accept returns provided the buyer ships them back at the buyers expense, still pays for the initial shipping cost, and *they receive the frogs back within 24 hours*...of what, they don't clearly say but the implication is within 24 hours of original receipt. That would be pretty difficult to do.

What could you possibly be dissatisfied with instantly? A dead frog, or one whose appearance you don't care for are really the only possible reasons here. You won't know if its sick with chytid or full of parasites by then, you wouldn't be able to put any of their health guarantees to the test in the 4 or so hours you would have to decide by running fecals or swabs. 

Just about every reputable breeder offers a live arrival guarantee, and in most cases you can see pictures of the actual animals you are purchasing, so you know and are happy with the appearance. Again, that is standard practice. 

So Waschers, please stop saying you are the only seller who offers a satisfaction guarantee. Most do. I do. In fact if you purchase a frog and it perishes within a week many sellers will work with you to replace those frogs. That crushes your guarantee like a grape.

...and just for the record, you seem as if you're very confused as to your unpopularity. For the record, I really started feeling like you were a sleazeball when I saw you taking features of the hobby that were standard practice, slapping a trademark on them, then marketing those features to the unaware as something you not only pioneered, but are the only one who offers those features...like, say, a guarantee. In fact the only thing I've seen you pioneer is plastic bags for flies, and that's not much to brag about. Other than that, every "innovation" you've introduced is old hat, including crossbreeds.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That is the saddest most pathetic thing I`ve ever read and for him to add that to his website just took sleazy to a new level.
I`m sure they`re hoping for some newbie to stumble across them and feel sorry for them.

Now I`m going to jam a screw driver into my eye socket for reading it


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> That is the saddest most pathetic thing I`ve ever read and for him to add that to his website just took sleazy to a new level.
> I`m sure they`re hoping for some newbie to stumble across them and feel sorry for them.
> 
> Now I`m going to jam a screw driver into my eye socket for reading it


That's likely what Rick thinks will happen but I think most people would read that and think to themselves.

Wow, what's this all about?
Why so defensive?
Etc

It is going to raise questions in customers minds. People are curious, they'll want to know more, so they'll go looking for the through, and they'll find it here. 

I am sceptical that many will read it at all though. You're looking to buy some poison dart frogs and you stumble across that wall of text. TL/DR. Probably a huge turn off.

This is why, after Rick briefly posted this prominantly at the top of the page, he has buried at the bottom with three obscure little letters. It's a message for us, and he put where he knows we'd look for it but where others probably won't notice.

As others have stated, this whole thing is a sign to me that this whole endeavor is circling the drain.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Here is another thought as to why they *MAY* have requested their accounts be locked, effectively a self imposed ban.

Banned members cannot respond to feedback.

When a member is banned their feedback thread is locked.

Effectively, since Designerfrogs.com and all of its entities here had themselves banned, a feedback thread, good or bad cannot be created for them because they would be unable to respond.

Also FWIW in response to their claim that they anticipated the pushback and so they choose a name they could abandon. Sorry not buying it, but you can thank me for using that idea as an excuse as I was the one who originally suggested it.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> In fact the only thing I've seen you pioneer is plastic bags for flies, and that's not much to brag about. Other than that, every "innovation" you've introduced is old hat, including crossbreeds.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/119562-jps-ff-culture-idea.html

It has been brought up here before... dont know if it was before or after they ever publicly talked about it. Also, there are some legitimate concerns with doing that.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/119562-jps-ff-culture-idea.html
> 
> It has been brought up here before... dont know if it was before or after they ever publicly talked about it. Also, there are some legitimate concerns with doing that.


It's nothing new. I remember people doing it back in the 90s. They just took an old idea, blew the dust off it and claimed it as one of their new innovations. I suspect a lot of their so called innovations were mined from the pages of the forums. It is interesting how they accepted certain ideas and call them their own, and flatly reject other ideas, especially as it relates to sound husbandry practices, mixing species/morphs, etc.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Banned members cannot respond to feedback.
> 
> When a member is banned their feedback thread is locke


I don't know about this Doug, that would require board members purchasing from them to be able to give them feedback. 
The issues with hiding the kind/type of names under the made-up trademarked stuff or hybrids ignored the long-standing practice and standard in the hobby of knowing the originating population of the frogs and that is what discouraged most people from purchasing from them. As a result, there would be little if any permissible feedback. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> I don't know about this Doug, that would require board members purchasing from them to be able to give them feedback.
> The issues with hiding the kind/type of names under the made-up trademarked stuff or hybrids ignored the long-standing practice and standard in the hobby of knowing the originating population of the frogs and that is what discouraged most people from purchasing from them. As a result, there would be little if any permissible feedback.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Maybe. New members could eventually leave feedback after reaching 25 posts. It is possible that people could have brought frogs from them, had a problem, sought out information, found this thread and then left feedback.

You won't get any argument from me that most if not all board members wouldn't buy from them thus a lack of feedback, but we do know of a couple, who are now concerned about the frogs they got from them as actually being what they say they were.

You may also recall it was mentioned a few times by some people that they'd considered purchasing frogs just to see what happened and to leave feedback if they felt it was warranted. I know at least one person who tried to do just that but Rick became suspicious and declined the sale.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Maybe. New members could eventually leave feedback after reaching 25 posts. It is possible that people could have brought frogs from them, had a problem, sought out information, found this thread and then left feedback.
> 
> You won't get any argument from me that most if not all board members wouldn't buy from them thus a lack of feedback, but we do know of a couple, who are now concerned about the frogs they got from them as actually being what they say they were.
> 
> You may also recall it was mentioned a few times by some people that they'd considered purchasing frogs just to see what happened and to leave feedback if they felt it was warranted. I know at least one person who tried to do just that but* Rick became suspicious and declined the sale*.


Really? I'd love to know the details of that. Why would he block the sale if he didn't have anything to hide? That is quite sleazy imo. 


While on topic, anyone maybe interested in pooling some money to buy some cheap frogs and test them for parasites etc, as well as size against other frogs of the same age? That stuff could be major ammunition for a 
BOI thread if it violates their ridiculous guarantees.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It's amusing that the OGC tab contains several thinly veiled threats to sue us all.

Also, science lesson: If you released your results and or published papers, we would accept your new information, as it could be retested and assessed. Science doesn't accept something is true because you say it is, and it doesn't "prove" anything, just supports something more and more.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Really? I'd love to know the details of that. Why would he block the sale if he didn't have anything to hide? That is quite sleazy imo.


According to them, yes. They've posted here recently, so if they're following along still and want to elaborate on the details, they can.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> While on topic, anyone maybe interested in pooling some money to buy some cheap frogs and test them for parasites etc, as well as size against other frogs of the same age? That stuff could be major ammunition for a
> BOI thread if it violates their ridiculous guarantees.


It has been considered in the past. Some problems though:

1) Rick would deny the validity of the tests, that it was actually their frogs, probably accuse people of conspiring and falsifying the test results. The only way to reliably do this would be to have the frogs shipped to a neutral party and, he would never go along with it and where could such a neutral party even be found.

2) based on Dillion's feedback given for certain vendors and what we know about those vendors, there is no way in hell I'd take the risk bringing those frogs anywhere close to my collection.

3) it puts money in their pocket that they don't deserve.

4) what happens to the frogs when were done?

People have dared Rick to post proof of their frog health in the form of test results but he won't, hasn't, can't. Given they're making the claim of a health, harmlessness, Safe, it is not unreasonably to request proof.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> ... test them for parasites etc, as well as size against other frogs of the same age? That stuff could be major ammunition for a
> BOI thread if it violates their ridiculous guarantees.



Parasites would be cut and dry, but proving size vs. age would be much trickier. 

DFW has claimed all along that their frogs are much bigger than others frogs of the same age and are sexable much earlier. He also claims that they only feed every other day, so it's unlikely he's stuffing them. The only explanation he's given as to their superior growth is that he's learned the kind of tricks that you can only know if you have several thousand frogs. That obviously is dumb. Also, if their prior recommendations on housing are any indication, I suspect he keeps them pretty crowded which, at best is negligible and at worst actually slows growth due to territorial stress. 

So how do they do it? I have no idea, I don't have 5000 frogs on hand so how could I? I mean, heck, If I needed to make those kinds of baseless claims I would just hold on to frogs for an extra 3 months and then lie about their age...absolutely untraceable. You'd have to be a pretty dishonest, sleazy guy to pull that, though, so I'm sure it's just some magic secret of frog girth that he stumbled on somewhere around frog number 2000. Maybe it has something to do with them Phenotypes.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

From a sleazy, technical, legal mumbo jumbo point of view, could Rick be threatened with a child endangerment case since they have posted zero evidence of completely clean frogs yet encourage kids to hold them in their hands??

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hmm...they say they have 7000 frogs, but they can't fill an order for 5 of each frog in their 2/3 month old mix and match wholesale?


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> From a sleazy, technical, legal mumbo jumbo point of view, could Rick be threatened with a child endangerment case since they have posted zero evidence of completely clean frogs yet encourage kids to hold them in their hands??
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


I sincerely doubt it, and honestly I wouldn't want to. He seems like a decent dad, all things considered, and I'm sure his kids feel loved and supported. He's just really poor at public relations, absolutely awful at predicting public response, and arrogant beyond belief. He's the kind of guy that makes a bad mistake and is too proud to correct his course so he just doubles down. Also, he's a mediocre frog wrangler...but honestly, probably a good father.

This, of course, is just my opinion, but I'm an amazing judge of character. 



InvertaHerp said:


> Hmm...they say they have 7000 frogs, but they can't fill an order for 5 of each frog in their 2/3 month old mix and match wholesale?


We're up to 7000 now?? How do 4 kids logistically take care of 7000 frogs? How do you watch for aggresion between individuals, keep such accurate records, feed and clean, let alone handle the hundreds of sales you would have to make monthly to financially support such an arrangement? Of course they don't use Repashy, who could afford that for 7000 frogs? If you're a breeder that has those kinds of numbers on hand, charges wholesale prices, and still no one in the hobby knows anyone who has purchased from you, you've done something wrong. It's hard to believe that's even possible.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"Hated by the poison frog hobby + 

LOVED by those who love quality frogs!™"

No joke, from their front page right now. And yes, he slapped a TM on that statement....

Looks like he is trying to get people to repost images from their site so he can attempt to excercise some kind of claim to IP infringement.

Desperation has set in as they circle the drain.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> "Hated by the poison frog hobby +
> 
> LOVED by those who love quality frogs!™"
> 
> No joke, from their front page right now. And yes, he slapped a TM on that statement....
> 
> Looks like he is trying to get people to repost images from their site so he can attempt to excercise some kind of claim to IP infringement.
> 
> Desperation has set in as they circle the drain.


But when you roll over the "Hated by the poison frog hobby" you get a popup that says 

"Conservation of wild animals and their natural habitats is important for civilized people. Our current and future generations are at the mercy of our charge in the sense we have the responsibility to protect the wild. For example, as poison dart frogs (and their rain forest habitats approach protected or endangered status, and knowing the harvest of wild animals disrupts or damages the pristine jungle even by the foot traffic of man that collects them, the most responsible thing for us to do is initiate an outright ban or moratorium on the importation of wild caught frogs. In addition, wild caught or imported frogs are prone to carry ferocious frog population destroying diseases, so why should anyone be allowed to import them into a wholesome pet market when there are proven, sustainable, captive breeding alternatives."

...the implication being that the hobby doesn't like him because he wants to ban imports and not because he's slick, disingenuous and preys on the uninformed! He's trying to spin this as if the whole reason he's a pariah is because he wants to save the rainforest and we want to strip it! That is hilarious! I think back now to his anti-importation comments in the past and think of how disappointed he must have been when no one bit.

Rick, you may have a good point. It's a bit of a generality, but maybe we have enough frogs and imports should stop. The great majority of frogs sold here are from captive bred adults. But you know what? That has NOTHING to do with your reputation. You have your reputation because, in this hobby, you're one of the BAD GUYS. You prey on the uninformed and you will spin any untrue implication to make a buck. If you need an example, look one paragraph up....or two paragraphs up...or ten pages back. 

“Just because something isn't a lie does not mean that it isn't deceptive. A liar knows that he is a liar, but one who speaks mere portions of truth in order to deceive is a craftsman of destruction.”
― Criss Jami


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Say I was someone looking to buy something, anything other than dart frogs. If the company comes out and says they're hated by someone, I'm checking something else out. 


(and of course our stance is justified here)


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I hadn't noticed that, thanks for pointing it out. I'd explain why, but that would actually help Rick. It's cute because he thinks he has done something clever.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Say I was someone looking to buy something, anything other than dart frogs. If the company comes out and says they're hated by someone, I'm checking something else out.
> 
> 
> (and of course our stance is justified here)


Exactly, he is their own worst enemy. He seems to think that we are a threat to his Kids company, when in realty the worst thing that ever happened to it is his meddling.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Answer me this Mr Private Counsel for the Frog Dudes....

You state all your "reviews" are real right?
Yet you only allow 200 characters per response, some of your reviews are clearly over 200 letters ( yea I counted)
Seriously, you actually give losers a bad name.

Just so you know my e-mail to you stating this will be 199 characters.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Answer me this Mr Private Counsel for the Frog Dudes....
> 
> You state all your "reviews" are real right?
> Yet you only allow 200 characters per response, some of your reviews are clearly over 200 letters ( yea I counted)
> Seriously, you actually give losers a bad name.
> 
> Just so you know my e-mail to you stating this will be 199 characters.


Careful, you might get sued!


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Someone has truly gone of his rocker. Self destruction in 5, 4, 3, ...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Another interesting thought on the subject of their guarantee and 24 hour turn around expectation?

How does a responsible person who understands anything about frogs even consider this?

You've already subjected the frogs to shipping once. Now you expect them to be turned right back around and shipped back to you? Really? Adding further stress of back to back shipping? Is that really worth the risk? What if temps/shipping conditions aren't favorable, or they got the frogs on a Thursday or Friday. Surely you wouldn't expect them to ship on Friday or Saturday?

On top of that, how do you even know that person you sent the animals to in the first place even knows how to ship and can do so responsibly in the short time frame?cwecknow your target are newbies, these are the LAST people you want shipping a frog back to you. Maybe it isn't their concern at that point if the animals come back dead, I mean that would be on the client right? How could you even assume that the person would have say for example, an appropriate heat pack available, or time to prep cooling materials.

Basically this all adds up to a huge inconvenience for the client and a potential risk to the animals. It's a logistical nightmare that is irresponsible and unreasonable to expect a client to have to deal with.

If I had an unsatisfied client and for some crazy reason wanted the animals sent back, I certainly would allow reasonable time for the animals to recover from shipping, and I'd allow ample time for the client to prepare to ship the animals properly.

Another consideration. Anyone recall them mentioning how carefully the control the inflow and outflow of animals to their facility. How could you responsibly expect animals back into your facility once they've been in someone's hands? You have no idea what they might have been exposed to. Not something you would even consider, especially if you're as careful about and as confident in your health and safety guarantees as you claim.

I really just think this guy fires from the hip when he adds and removes things from their website without giving any careful consideration to logical outcomes.

Now that I've spelled this out for Rick, what's the over under in hours before Rick fixes his mistakes and oversights? Really sick of doing your job for you bro think before you post such nonsense,


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

WOW is all i can say about these people. I never would buy from them for all the obvious reasons. Just trying to figure out thier website has given me a migrain headache. and as for the guarantee so very confused, i thought why not let me send them a email and see if they could explain it to me. doubt if i will get a responce though. all that so called legal crap they have up htere just goes to show how egotistical they are


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hey John, your email is up on their site.


And it is creepy as hell hoe Rick asks for your # and where you live.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Did you feed the frogs fruit flies from cultures using methylparaben ("Meth")? 


Methylparaben is Meth now. Oh dear.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Hey John, your email is up on their site.
> 
> 
> And it is creepy as hell hoe Rick asks for your # and where you live.


Scare tactic, he's trying to suggest that he would hire someone local to "Serve" John with some kind of lawsuit. It would be amusing to give him the wrong address, maybe of someone you know(so you could find out), so he'd hire and pay a server, who would then try to serve the wrong person, wasting Rick's time and money.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Scare tactic, he's trying to suggest that he would hire someone local to "Serve" John with some kind of lawsuit.


Haha for what? Rick you're not scaring anybody. Feel free to put this post on your clusterf*** of a site.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Haha for what? Rick you're not scaring anybody. Feel free to put this post on your clusterf*** of a site.


Who knows what kind of reason he would trump up.

BTW, ever hear of proxy servers, redirects, ip spoofing? I don't know just how good or careful people are being when contacting you, but you might not want to waste too much time on that.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Those emails are gone.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If someone were threatening him or his family, as he's claimed, then I assume he'd have a case of some sort. Otherwise, he's not going to get any money. I think he's really threatening to create a time or resource sink that would be inconvenient. Depending on the situation, though, he would likely be opening himself up for a pretty easy counter-suit.

I don't know about other states, but here in California the Anti-Bullying Laws & Policies address discrimination, harassment, intimidation, and bullying, typically over a Disability, Gender, Nationality, Race or ethnicity, Religion, Sexual orientation or Association with a person or group with one of more of these actual or perceived characteristics. I'm no expert, but that's what I read/cut/paste.

You would be hard pressed to prove any of that in this thread.

Criticism isn't bullying, especially on a forum that is not directed to, nor accessed by, you. Even more so the criticism of someones business practices, and even MORE so when the target of that criticism is constantly making changes in response and acknowledging that criticism. If someone is making threats to his family, that is inexcusable, but you can't sue someone simply because you don't like what they are saying, or because they've called you out on an innacuracy/lie, or even because they have encouraged others to boycott your business.

So just for the record, DFW, criticizing someones business model is not harassment, stalking down and trying to intimidate individuals because you don't like what they say actually is.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Those emails are gone.


 I figured. Did anyone take a pic?


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



designerfrogs.com website said:


> QUESTIONS
> What do you mean by returned to you in 24 hours. What if I get the frogs on a Friday or Saturday?
> 
> If you are ordering a lot of frogs you are a wholesale customer/dealer and we always work closely with them. In that case we would just talk with you and establish a credit or refund depending on the situation. Think of it this way, we want to keep your business, not lose it, so we take the risk more than you. If you really did not want them, that would totally surprise us, but still we hear you. We ship Monday-Wednesday, but if you order a large number then we will work with you on any and all credits, returns and swaps,...whatever.
> We do not ship on Thursday for Friday normally because that is day most FedEx priority delays occur. The business world tries to beat the weekend deadline and the planes fill fast to some locations (usually the Northwest and Cali). We drop off late, near 11 PM to keep frog stress to a minimum. In that way sometimes we could miss an overfilled flight and then the frogs could sit for a later delivery.
> We know they will be awesome frogs and there will be no issue in that area.


In other words, if you're a repeat customer who buys a shit load of frogs ... we'll talk. If you're a newb or someone who only wants a few frogs (you know, like a hobbyist) then you're shit out of luck ... no guarantee for you! (said in his best Soup Nazi accent)

A bit tough to prey on naive newbs when you're flipping them the bird at the same time.

Self destruction imminent


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> I figured. Did anyone take a pic?


Yep. And I was doing a little researching about cyber harassment etc, and I know EXACTLY why he took them down.

Ethan/John, if you're reading this, I have this file saved. Rick made a HUGE mistake posting those publicly and he knows it. I saved a screenshot of the OCG page while they were still up. PM me your email address if you want and I'll send them to you. Should you ever need them your attorney will find them VERY useful.

Oops Ricky, Oops


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> QUESTIONS
> What do you mean by returned to you in 24 hours. What if I get the frogs on a Friday or Saturday?
> 
> If you are ordering a lot of frogs you are a wholesale customer/dealer and we always work closely with them. In that case we would just talk with you and establish a credit or refund depending on the situation. Think of it this way, we want to keep your business, not lose it, so we take the risk more than you. If you really did not want them, that would totally surprise us, but still we hear you. We ship Monday-Wednesday, but if you order a large number then we will work with you on any and all credits, returns and swaps,...whatever.
> We do not ship on Thursday for Friday normally because that is day most FedEx priority delays occur. The business world tries to beat the weekend deadline and the planes fill fast to some locations (usually the Northwest and Cali). We drop off late, near 11 PM to keep frog stress to a minimum. In that way sometimes we could miss an overfilled flight and then the frogs could sit for a later delivery.
> We know they will be awesome frogs and there will be no issue in that area.


It never ceases to amaze me how quickly I can affect change on their website. Really Rick, you ought to be paying me.

You did conveniently ignore a whole lot of important problems presented to you though.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not once have I ever threatened, bullied or harassed him.
Jeremy, I know you weren`t say that.

Have I sent a few e-mails their way asking questions? 
You betcha.
I would ask any vendor that prints that nonsense the same questions.

Paranoia strikes deep into your life it will creep


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Not once have I ever threatened, bullied or harassed him.
> Jeremy, I know you weren`t say that.
> 
> Have I sent a few e-mails their way asking questions?
> You betcha.
> I would ask any vendor that prints that nonsense the same questions.
> 
> Paranoia strikes deep into your life it will creep


Yep, it's called scrutiny and I can't imagine why anyone would make an internet purchase without applying a healthy dose of it.


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> In other words, if you're a repeat customer who buys a shit load of frogs ... we'll talk. If you're a newb or someone who only wants a few frogs (you know, like a hobbyist) then you're shit out of luck ... no guarantee for you! (said in his best Soup Nazi accent)
> 
> A bit tough to prey on naive newbs when you're flipping them the bird at the same time.
> 
> Self destruction imminent


Wow I just got a response from them on my email about their guarantee and they sent me that exact same thing u just posted up. It's pretty confusing still and seems like he just cuts a paste his responces


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Those frogs must be flying off the shelves there.
They claim to have what, 7000 this week. 
I just tried to order 10-15 frogs from about 10 different morphs and was told they didn`t have that many in stock for each frog. 

C`mon Ricky, your not inflating those numbers are you?
Because that would be...you know dishonest


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Damage control (as usual):



designerfrogs.com website said:


> QUESTION
> 
> I'm neither a wholesale customer/ dealer. How does your guarantee work for pairs that I would buy to breed?
> 
> The guarantee is the same on the pairs, but we give you a few days to watch them interact. Of course we cannot guarantee they will ever breed, but seriously we have no reason to believe they won't. In fact, if a customer did not want any pair within a few days, we would definitely want them back, no doubt about it,...so long as they were fed and cared for before the return.
> We have sold a lot of pairs and had only one issue–the customer told us he was skilled with frogs, but he wasn't. He had reptile experience and no frog experience whatsoever. We sent him pics of the pair BEFORE we sent the frogs. He loved them and shipped that night. Then, weeks went by and he said the female was not doing do good. We asked for pics of the enclosure and the frogs. He sent us pics of his enclosure and it was bad, really bad, NO LEAVES, wet moss everywhere, and it looked cold, nowhere to hide for the frogs-nowhere. He ended up killing the female after 4 weeks because of neglect and improper care. ALL of the basic care stuff on our site was there including the need for leaves and ground cover. (Note: Even after the death we offered to help him get a new frog for the cost of shipping, but only after we had proof his enclosure was furnished properly, etc. We know this was "above and beyond", but that is who we are. This instance prompted the question on our site during checkout asking about prior frog experience.)


So, in addition to high volume buyers and repeat customers, those who buy pairs also may get a guarantee. The rest of you newbs are screwed ...

Whatever happened to their 365 shipping? Seems they backed away from that awfully quietly.


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow didn't take long for them to post my question/ email to them on their website without my permission. Wonder if I could do anything about that. This just shows how desperate they are. I hear the toilet being flushed on them. I'm so glad I found this forum and found out about these people before I ever bought anything from them.. I think I will email them again to try and see how much more confusing it gets. They still never explains the 24 hr part of this. They are pretty pathetic


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Moghue said:


> Wow didn't take long for them to post my question/ email to them on their website without my permission. Wonder if I could do anything about that. This just shows how desperate they are. I hear the toilet being flushed on them. I'm so glad I found this forum and found out about these people before I ever bought anything from them.. I think I will email them again to try and see how much more confusing it gets. They still never explains the 24 hr part of this. They are pretty pathetic


Are you the Ethan Abbott?


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No I'm not. I just realized it wasn't my emails he was posting even though I asked the exact same questions and recieved the exact same answers. They must have a canned response to the questions I asked them or something.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Are you the Ethan Abbott?


Heh, took me just a second to find out the joke is on Rick as far as Ethan is concerned..... As far as I can tell, he isn't even a US citizen.


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Lol. Can you believe they haven't answered my question yet on their requirement to return the frog within 24 hrs. Now they want my number to talk on the phone.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Moghue said:


> Lol. Can you believe they haven't answered my question yet on their requirement to return the frog within 24 hrs. Now they want my number to talk on the phone.


Record the call. You're in Delaware, Rick is in Tennessee, one party consent laws apply in both states.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

And just like that, all mention of requiring people send the frogs back in an arbitrarily short time period is gone. You know Rick if you thought ahead more often about the ramifications of some of the nonsense you put up on your website, you'ld save yourself a whole lot of work.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> And just like that, all mention of requiring people send the frogs back in an arbitrarily short time period is gone. You know Rick if you thought ahead more often about the ramifications of some of the nonsense you put up on your website, you'ld save yourself a whole lot of work.


Jeez, we give him advice, he takes the advice, he calls it harassment.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

WOW....this is my 1st post...had to comment.....trashing this guys business....only makes it look like sour grapes from "other" frog vendors......

as a business owner, you never mistreat customers EVER, however when your competion starts "playing games" well gloves are off......IF the guy runs a shoddy opperation he won't get repeat orders.......he should also learn to not share internal details..yadda yadda...buy your goods from him or not...get a bad deal...don't buy again...simple

as far as genetics.....still laughing....suggest all involved to take a class..punnet square.....selecting for traits is a time honored science....its how we got all those different dog/bird/cow/horse/rabbit/flower/plant breeds/types/cultivars....as with all pets...."frog shows" are the future.....there will be those that keep wild strains pure....others who will select for apperance/ behavioral traits

so get some judges..see who has the best frogs....till then.......


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> WOW....this is my 1st post...had to comment.....trashing this guys business....only makes it look like sour grapes from "other" frog vendors......
> 
> as a business owner, you never mistreat customers EVER, however when your competion starts "playing games" well gloves are off......IF the guy runs a shoddy opperation he won't get repeat orders.......he should also learn to not share internal details..yadda yadda...buy your goods from him or not...get a bad deal...don't buy again...simple
> 
> as far as genetics.....still laughing....suggest all involved to take a class..punnet square.....selecting for traits is a time honored science....its how we got all those different dog/bird/cow/horse/rabbit/flower/plant breeds/types/cultivars....as with all pets...."frog shows" are the future.....there will be those that keep wild strains pure....others who will select for apperance/ behavioral traits
> 
> so get some judges..see who has the best frogs....till then.......


The only ones that is playing games in Rick (dartfrog wharehouse or whatever knew name they change to). I think this thread is very relevent. i dont see other breeders playing any games on here just getting the truth out and trying to save people grief


----------



## TheCoon

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> WOW....this is my 1st post...had to comment.....trashing this guys business....only makes it look like sour grapes from "other" frog vendors......
> 
> as a business owner, you never mistreat customers EVER, however when your competion starts "playing games" well gloves are off......IF the guy runs a shoddy opperation he won't get repeat orders.......he should also learn to not share internal details..yadda yadda...buy your goods from him or not...get a bad deal...don't buy again...simple
> 
> as far as genetics.....still laughing....suggest all involved to take a class..punnet square.....selecting for traits is a time honored science....its how we got all those different dog/bird/cow/horse/rabbit/flower/plant breeds/types/cultivars....as with all pets...."frog shows" are the future.....there will be those that keep wild strains pure....others who will select for apperance/ behavioral traits
> 
> so get some judges..see who has the best frogs....till then.......


Grabbing some popcorn for this one...


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Same here i said my say on what that guy wrote now im sitting back


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Moghue said:


> The only ones that is playing games in Rick (dartfrog wharehouse or whatever knew name they change to). I think this thread is very relevent. i dont see other breeders playing any games on here just getting the truth out and trying to save people grief



have you personally bought anything from this vendor?


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Nope and i never will. If you ever looked at thier website you would see why. Plus i dont do buisness with anyone who will not give a straight answer to my questions or changes the name of thier company over and over. You might take a chance on a place like that but i will not. There are many more reason why if you back and read everything that was written.


----------



## Ghost vivs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> have you personally bought anything from this vendor?


Does one really have to buy from the crack dealer to know what he's selling is bad?? Or were you just told that by others?

It's called being informed...

Casper


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

OGC tab and hated by the hobby things are gone


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> WOW....this is my 1st post...had to comment.....trashing this guys business....only makes it look like sour grapes from "other" frog vendors......
> 
> as a business owner, you never mistreat customers EVER, however when your competion starts "playing games" well gloves are off......IF the guy runs a shoddy opperation he won't get repeat orders.......he should also learn to not share internal details..yadda yadda...buy your goods from him or not...get a bad deal...don't buy again...simple
> 
> as far as genetics.....still laughing....suggest all involved to take a class..punnet square.....selecting for traits is a time honored science....its how we got all those different dog/bird/cow/horse/rabbit/flower/plant breeds/types/cultivars....as with all pets...."frog shows" are the future.....there will be those that keep wild strains pure....others who will select for apperance/ behavioral traits
> 
> so get some judges..see who has the best frogs....till then.......


Wow, first post and you got it all figured out. 

As far as I can tell, other vendors have really stayed out of it for the most part. Those of us "trashing" him (I thought I'd been fair) are mostly just hobbyists who may occasionally sell offspring. Long time vendors have seen this come and go and don't seem to be worried.

Also, as far as the punnet square class, laugh on if you like. I'm happy you have a grasp on simple genetics but I would suggest you don't really understand this situation. I won't waste a lot of air explaining it because even a cursory search on the topic would yield you enough info to form an educated opinion, but the short version is that crossbred frogs are bad for the hobby. They create uncertainty over genetic frog lines. Since, worldwide, the market is MUCH more interested in frogs with a lineage (right or wrong, that is the situation) a frog with a questionable lineage becomes undesirable and pressure is put on new imports, legal or smuggled. This creates boom cycles, based on the perception that any importation could be the last, which are followed by bust cycles, which result in a loss of genetics, which create pressure on importation.

Look at it this way. If you were to purchase a corn snake it would likely look nothing like it's wild counterpart. Even if it did, it's offspring would still likely be a hodgepodge grab bag because of so much selective/line breeding. If you wanted a corn snake that represented a natural animal you would have to go catch one...which you can do. Currently we can do that with frogs as well, to a degree, but it's not unimaginable that that situation will end in our lifetimes, and really, wouldn't it be better to protect the lineage of what we have than import new frogs if that's a viable option.

I've greatly oversimplified the subject for the sake of brevity. Novel pathogens as well as outbreeding depression are both topics you may want to investigate. There is nothing wrong with a crossbred frog per se. A frog is a frog, but the act of crossbreeding stock is bad for the hobby. 

Don't stop giggling over punnet squares though, and don't be hard on yourself. Every new hobbyist (myself included) is curious about crossbreeding. It's one of the first two questions everyone who has ever looked at a couple tanks of frogs has asked. I suppose I'm was being intentionally condescending there, but you could search this topic and find a hundred cases of people making arguments like yours in their first five posts.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Lol so now it is apparently

"Followed by the poison frog hobby,
leading the pet frog hobby"

Yes, were following what you do, and will continue to do so. We do this so that we can raise awareness of your outright lies, misinformation, and shady tactics Rick. Change your website and names as many times as you want, it will not matter. 

And only in your wildest dreams are you leading anything. If anything you've been following us for ques, leached of the inventiveness of the hobby to claim inovations that ARE NOT your own. Basically you stood on the backs of the poison frog hobby to get you where you are. Without us you wouldn't have the frogs you're breeding, the knowledge to breed them, or even the first clue what you're doing.

You are NOT a leader, you're an arrogant egomaniac without dignity or respect nothing more.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

LOL, well he can turn a phrase. I have to admit, I've been following him pretty closely, just not in the way implied. I also noticed he changed his guarantee to the hobby standard and has stopped claiming to be the only one who offers such a guarantee. 

Since were helping you fine tune your site, Rick, here's another one...



Designer frogs said:


> Because the poison dart frog hobby loudly reports and mandates the need to test wild or imported poison dart frogs for viscious diseases known to wipe out entire frog populations, be sure to ask your sellers if they test(ed) their frogs for disease!
> 
> Specifically, as we were asked, make sure you ask if the seller's frogs were tested for ranavirus, coccidia, chytridiospores, or hookworm or other diseases. We don't sell poison frogs of any kind, and every frog we sell was raised by us from the egg by us in a perfectly clean, frog friendly environment. ALL of the frogs we sell are guaranteed perfectly healthy, 100% non-toxic, absolutely beautiful, and fun. Our SAFE® brand is a trademark assuring you the frog is a USA Frog!


Your advice here is some pretty transparent double-talk. You tell people to ask about testing purchased frogs, as you were asked, but you never address whether or not your frogs were ever tested for these viscious [sic] diseases. You change the subject and start addressing toxicity as if it were a synonym for diseased. Again, you are offering a guarantee without any backing or proof. Are you telling me that out of 7000 frogs you've never had a frog die suddenly? Have you had those frogs tested? Healthy frogs in vivarium conditions can live long vibrant lives while still carrying some pretty nasty contagions/parasites. If you haven't tested you don't know. If I didn't know the situation and I read the above quote I would wonder what you're hiding. I suggest you just don't bring up the subject of testing if you intend not to share the outcome with potential buyers.

Just trying to help.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

As a side note, it is also pretty well established that a negative fecal doesn't prove that a frog is parasite free... IT only establishes that nothing was detected at that time.. In some cases you can even have animals that are showing symptoms of a parasite caused disease and not be able to detect it on a fecal, coccidians comes to mind as a classic example. 
The only way to be sure a frog is free of parasites is euthanize it, and necropsy it with the appropriate histopathology. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> As a side note, it is also pretty well established that a negative fecal doesn't prove that a frog is parasite free... IT only establishes that nothing was detected at that time.. In some cases you can even have animals that are showing symptoms of a parasite caused disease and not be able to detect it on a fecal, coccidians comes to mind as a classic example.
> The only way to be sure a frog is free of parasites is euthanize it, and necropsy it with the appropriate histopathology.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


No ED! their frogs are 100% Healthy Gauranteed! Take your self appointed fancy science nonsense elsewhere.

/sarcasm


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> Because the poison dart frog hobby loudly reports and mandates the need to test wild or imported poison dart frogs for viscious diseases known to wipe out entire frog populations, be sure to ask your sellers if they test(ed) their frogs for disease!


Not just wild or imports, ALL new (to your collection) frogs.

Because it is good sound husbandry. Trust but verify. It is your responsibility to make sure your collection is clean. I highly doubt you have ever tested a single frog in your facility ever. The fact that you refuse to plainly answer this very simple question, speaks volumes about your credibility.

Even accredited AZA institutions who know and trust each other, when they trade animals or give animals to other zoos, require a pre shipment veterinary check usually including checking for diseases and they STILL do a 30 day minimum quarantine and test them self.

The fact that you have this alleged huge facility with thousands of frogs and can't and won't simply outright state that you have at least tested your founding stock shows your complete and total lack of sound judgement with respect to protecting your investment..if you had done it, you'ld be proudly telling everyone about it and providing evidence.

Put up or shut up time Rick. You are the one making the claim, prove that it is more than an a bases less implication of health.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Summer/Fall ??, 2015

Pet Frog Breeder conference here at USA Frog! 

All day, meals and beverages provided, surprises, giveaways, secrets, tips, behind the scenes,... EVERYBODY goes away with a "free pick"–more on that later. Great stuff for all who attend. Invite only, but we hope to have at least 50-100 attendees. More details to follow in the coming months at PetFrogDay.com. We are very excited and hope you will be too. More info later, but let's talk shop and let us share some of the anomalies we find in a 7,000 frog population (probably 10K by then) AND WHY, sales, marketing, food stuffs, and guest speaker(s) in the retail and pet trade, PHOTOGRAPHY, AND MORE...! Very cool indeed.

(Those interested in our experimental stuff will need to sign a confidentiality agreement, but it will be segregated within the facility so please do not feel obligated, only if you want to see the experimental stuff.) 



I'd kill to go to this.



But really, who the hell is going to go? Invite only? Please.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Summer/Fall ??, 2015
> 
> Pet Frog Breeder conference here at USA Frog!
> 
> All day, meals and beverages provided, surprises, giveaways, secrets, tips, behind the scenes,... EVERYBODY goes away with a "free pick"–more on that later. Great stuff for all who attend. Invite only, but we hope to have at least 50-100 attendees. More details to follow in the coming months at PetFrogDay.com. We are very excited and hope you will be too. More info later, but let's talk shop and let us share some of the anomalies we find in a 7,000 frog population (probably 10K by then) AND WHY, sales, marketing, food stuffs, and guest speaker(s) in the retail and pet trade, PHOTOGRAPHY, AND MORE...! Very cool indeed.
> 
> (Those interested in our experimental stuff will need to sign a confidentiality agreement, but it will be segregated within the facility so please do not feel obligated, only if you want to see the experimental stuff.)
> 
> 
> 
> I'd kill to go to this.
> 
> 
> 
> But really, who the hell is going to go? Invite only? Please.


I say we crash the party. 
Where are they going to find a credible speaker?
Always with the legal crap, a confidentiality agreement? Really? For What?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I vote for Doug and Jeremy as guest speakers

*EDIT- and of coarse Donn


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> a 7,000 frog population (probably 10K by then)


Yea right, I couldn`t buy 10 Auratus from you yesterday.

Why is it so f-ing hard for you to just be honest


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I say we crash the party.
> Where are they going to find a credible speaker?
> Always with the legal crap, a confidentiality agreement? Really? For What?


"US Dart Frog Awareness Group (USDFAG), coming soon to a party near you!"TM


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Summer/Fall ??, 2015
> 
> Pet Frog Breeder conference here at USA Frog!
> 
> All day, meals and beverages provided, surprises, giveaways, secrets, tips, behind the scenes,... EVERYBODY goes away with a "free pick"–more on that later. Great stuff for all who attend. Invite only, but we hope to have at least 50-100 attendees. More details to follow in the coming months at PetFrogDay.com. We are very excited and hope you will be too. More info later, but let's talk shop and let us share some of the anomalies we find in a 7,000 frog population (probably 10K by then) AND WHY, sales, marketing, food stuffs, and guest speaker(s) in the retail and pet trade, PHOTOGRAPHY, AND MORE...! Very cool indeed.
> 
> (Those interested in our experimental stuff will need to sign a confidentiality agreement, but it will be segregated within the facility so please do not feel obligated, only if you want to see the experimental stuff.)


Summer/fall 2015? That seems presumptuous for a business that already appears to be failing (in a number 
of ways).


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Where are they going to find a credible speaker?


Shouldn't be hard with a house full of scientists.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Moghue said:


> Nope and i never will. If you ever looked at thier website you would see why. Plus i dont do buisness with anyone who will not give a straight answer to my questions or changes the name of thier company over and over. You might take a chance on a place like that but i will not. There are many more reason why if you back and read everything that was written.


their* business*

I was told once that "Japanese Cars would never make it in the USA"
The person that told me never ever bought a import they drove a Oldsmobile...





Ghost vivs said:


> Does one really have to buy from the crack dealer to know what he's selling is bad?? Or were you just told that by others?
> 
> It's called being informed...
> 
> Casper


yes I agree, being informed is good....with appologies to Walter White.......... I never did crack, good or bad







Boondoggle said:


> Wow, first post and you got it all figured out.
> 
> As far as I can tell, other vendors have really stayed out of it for the most part. Those of us "trashing" him (I thought I'd been fair) are mostly just hobbyists who may occasionally sell offspring. Long time vendors have seen this come and go and don't seem to be worried.
> 
> Also, as far as the punnet square class, laugh on if you like. I'm happy you have a grasp on simple genetics but I would suggest you don't really understand this situation. I won't waste a lot of air explaining it because even a cursory search on the topic would yield you enough info to form an educated opinion, but the short version is that crossbred frogs are bad for the hobby. They create uncertainty over genetic frog lines. Since, worldwide, the market is MUCH more interested in frogs with a lineage (right or wrong, that is the situation) a frog with a questionable lineage becomes undesirable and pressure is put on new imports, legal or smuggled. This creates boom cycles, based on the perception that any importation could be the last, which are followed by bust cycles, which result in a loss of genetics, which create pressure on importation.
> 
> Look at it this way. If you were to purchase a corn snake it would likely look nothing like it's wild counterpart. Even if it did, it's offspring would still likely be a hodgepodge grab bag because of so much selective/line breeding. If you wanted a corn snake that represented a natural animal you would have to go catch one...which you can do. Currently we can do that with frogs as well, to a degree, but it's not unimaginable that that situation will end in our lifetimes, and really, wouldn't it be better to protect the lineage of what we have than import new frogs if that's a viable option.
> 
> I've greatly oversimplified the subject for the sake of brevity. Novel pathogens as well as outbreeding depression are both topics you may want to investigate. There is nothing wrong with a crossbred frog per se. A frog is a frog, but the act of crossbreeding stock is bad for the hobby.
> 
> Don't stop giggling over punnet squares though, and don't be hard on yourself. Every new hobbyist (myself included) is curious about crossbreeding. It's one of the first two questions everyone who has ever looked at a couple tanks of frogs has asked. I suppose I'm was being intentionally condescending there, but you could search this topic and find a hundred cases of people making arguments like yours in their first five posts.


Just because this was my 1st post it would be naive to lump me into a true "newbe" mold...I was educated as a wildlife biologist at university
I understand genetics better than your "average" joe in fact just read on the nutritional requirements of "dart frogs" prey/food and how that can effect adult color....always wanted to keep dart frogs since I 1st saw them in the St louis zoo as a young teen "I am 54 now" I have even done zoo work while in universtity...I clearly have skill sets beyond newbe.....

breeding in captivity takes out the natural selection to some degree, replaced by selective breeding....it seems one has issues with these folks MARKETING.

as a note on a related example:
Liger male Lion x female Tiger, is considerably larger. It is thought imprinted yet not expressed genes in both parents get cancled out,...

also the "Pumapard" a hybrid of a puma and a leopard. Both male puma with female leopard and male leopard with female puma pairings have produced offspring. In general, these hybrids have exhibited a tendency to dwarfism.

interesting...but those punnet squares "or software that does the same" still have a bearing on breeding be it big cats or dart frogs....

like I said...if its a quality frog war...FROG SHOW!...."The BS Stops When The Tailgate Drops" see if your dog hunts


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> their* business*
> 
> I was told once that "Japanese Cars would never make it in the USA"
> The person that told me never ever bought a import they drove a Oldsmobile...


*an* Oldsmobile...

You are missing the huge difference here... cars are a durable good, not a pet. It is a totally different type of market. 

Also, this is competing for discretionary dollars and not driven by 1970's pro-American sentiment... This is driven by concern for the hobby and captive populations.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> their* business*
> 
> I was told once that "Japanese Cars would never make it in the USA"
> The person that told me never ever bought a import they drove a Oldsmobile...


Oh, don't do that.

Also, It's "an" Oldsmobile. Also, it "affects" adult color, thus causing an "effect". See? It seems petty. 

I'm have no notions about your education or experience with animals/genetics and have no reasons not to believe you. On the other hand I'm more concerned with the types of behaviors that in the past have proven bad for the hobby. There are a lot of frogs we've lost over boom/bust cycles which we may never see again. We just can't act like there is an infinite number of animals to pull from in the wild, and it's particularly offensive that this company engages in something that exacerbates that issue, while claiming to have conservation based goals.



edit - Dang, it's hard to be as fast as Tom.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> their* business*


u mite want To got Handel on you're own grammer, puntation, an ran on sentences frist, b four u critisize othars



Seriously, if you're going to pretend you're someone's English teacher, you had damn well better be sure you posts are perfect or you're going to be wearing clown shoes home. See above.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> u mite want To got Handel on you're own grammer, puntation, an ran on sentences frist, b four u critisize othars
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, if you're going to pretend you're someone's English teacher, you had damn well better be sure you posts are perfect or you're going to be wearing clown shoes home. See above.


the point is semantics.......be it spelling or trade marking a name

"wave" petuinas and "knockout" roses come to mind

"wasp" dart frogs cant be far behind.

but again screaming to the world " I HATE SHRIMP" and complain about the menu..yet you never ate them....is well....just saying


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> the point is semantics.......be it spelling or trade marking a name
> 
> "wave" petuinas and "knockout" roses come to mind
> 
> "wasp" dart frogs cant be far behind.
> 
> but again screaming to the world " I HATE SHRIMP" and complain about the menu..yet you never ate them....is well....just saying


Well, I'm convinced.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> the point is semantics.......be it spelling or trade marking a name
> 
> "wave" petuinas and "knockout" roses come to mind
> 
> "wasp" dart frogs cant be far behind.
> 
> but again screaming to the world " I HATE SHRIMP" and complain about the menu..yet you never ate them....is well....just saying


The point of correcting someone's spelling is semantics? I dunno where you were educated or at what university, but I'd ask for my money back.

Just sayin' what? A whole lot of nothing. To reinforce Tom's point, you don't have to actually be a consumer of a product to find fault with or criticize it. This is fallacious logic on your point.

To throw your analogy back in your face, if I know for a fact that those shrimp were caught in waters containing mercury and are likely toxic, I don't have to eat them to know they're bad for me or you. And rather than see a fellow human suffer after eating those shrimp off your menu, I'm going to warn them about the risks.

You've clearly not read or informed yourself on this topic very well, or you're a shill. You can attempt to come in this thread, and say its just sour grapes, but we, the hobby, have legitimate concerns. Its about preventing others from falling prey to predatory business practices, false and deliberately misleading information, and outright lies.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

BTW It is a:

*PUNNETT* Square..............

*TWO* T's

You misspelled that TWICE now.

Must have left that out at the university........


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> as far as genetics.....still laughing....suggest all involved to take a class..punnet square.....


If your laughing about the genetics it's because your either out of date on the science or simply don't understand it or both.. The reason I'm making the statement is because a *punnett* square only has value if the genetics are known so a person can determine the frequency of the allele assortment. If your attempting to use a punnett square to determine phenotypic expression of the frogs based on those assortments given that the genetics have not been well worked out then you need to hope that 
1)) none of the traits are under polygenic control
2) epigenetics has no role in the expressed traits 
3) expression isn't due to environmental plasticity 
4) expression isn't due to factors that are due to other factors (for example, the seal pointing in siamese cats is due to an pigment enzyme whose function is thermally sensitive. 
5) possible impact of incomplete dominance or co-dominance on the pigmentation of the animals in question. 

If the genetic control isn't known and the traits are not simple dominant/recessive traits then you can be in for a long time before a punnett square has any value in prediction.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> but we, the hobby,.


that kinda says it all....

David Attenburrow would be proud you speak for all in the hobby


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Just because this was my 1st post it would be naive to lump me into a true "newbe" mold...I was educated as a wildlife biologist at university
> I understand genetics better than your "average" joe in fact just read on the nutritional requirements of "dart frogs" prey/food and how that can effect adult color....always wanted to keep dart frogs since I 1st saw them in the St louis zoo as a young teen "I am 54 now" I have even done zoo work while in universtity...I clearly have skill sets beyond newbe.....



First off... I wouldn't make the claim that you understand genetics better than the average person given your statements about punnett squares. Also being educated doesn't mean that you are a wildlife biologist or that you succeeded in the program. All it implies is that you were exposed to some level of information. 

Also nothing in your posts gives any clue that you really aren't a "newbie"... 
As for volunteering at a zoo... that is something that doesn't carry as much weight as you think. All it means is that you volunteered there.. for example many if not most zoos utilize docents.. the docent staff never works with the animals but are volunteers.... there are also often volunteers in other areas that have nothing to do with animal care such as gardening or upkeep... 
There are a number of people here who either were or are currently employed as zookeepers working with the animals including some who spent a very long time working with anurans..including dart frogs. 



MoCarp said:


> as a note on a related example:
> Liger male Lion x female Tiger, is considerably larger. It is thought imprinted yet not expressed genes in both parents get cancled out,...


Umm... No, that is not how imprinted genes work. Normally with respect to imprinted genes an organism has one active and one inactive gene. The inactive gene is imprinted as it retains it methylation tag. There isn't any of the canceling crap that your alluding to.. 

The liger gets so big because the genes that prevent overgrowth are lacking as they are carried by female lion and the male tiger. This is why a "tigron" is close to the same size as the parents while a liger is much larger. It lacks the respective genes. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> that kinda says it all....
> 
> David Attenburrow would be proud you speak for all in the hobby


No, it kinda doesn't. I know I speak for myself, but I obviously have a much better grasp of what the prevailing opinions of the hobby are on this issue than you do. Even Rick can grasp this simple concept, not sure why it is difficult for you.

Glad you were watching him tonight too. I hope you actually learned something.

Great man, I'd be happy to have him be proud of me.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Someone has to pick up trash and scrape gum off the picnic tables too Ed. Actually we never even made the volunteers do that, reserved that for the losers doing community service.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Someone has to pick up trash and scrape gum off the picnic tables too Ed. Actually we never even made the volunteers do that, reserved that for the losers doing community service.


 1. I did course work at a zoo. 

2. The big cat info was from a study, I'm sure I can find ref material.

3. I have been in biological advisory capacity on a few projects.

4. Once you start losing a debate one starts personal attacks.

5. Do you raise better frogs than " the vendor in question"?

I have read some of the past conflicts, If these people "are not doing it right" then fine shine the light on them.
but it looks like bad blood over frog sales.....if you or other frog sellers have better goods then start some way to "grade stock"
if these folks are "flipping" frogs.....or worse breaking the law importing...then rat them out to the feds.

as a note I am in no way affliated with any frog vendor...so stop the hate......I lived in SA from 06-2011....


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> their* business*
> 
> I was told once that "Japanese Cars would never make it in the USA"
> The person that told me never ever bought a import they drove a Oldsmobile...


Hey don't knock Oldsmobile... I got hit by a drunk driver in a Toyota, while in my Oldsmobile. I plowed through him and spun him across 4 lanes of traffic... so Oldsmobile FTW 




MoCarp said:


> Just because this was my 1st post it would be naive to lump me into a true "newbe" mold...I was educated as a wildlife biologist at university
> I understand genetics better than your "average" joe in fact just read on the nutritional requirements of "dart frogs" prey/food and how that can effect adult color....always wanted to keep dart frogs since I 1st saw them in the St louis zoo as a young teen "I am 54 now" I have even done zoo work while in universtity...I clearly have skill sets beyond newbe.....
> 
> breeding in captivity takes out the natural selection to some degree, replaced by selective breeding....it seems one has issues with these folks MARKETING.
> 
> as a note on a related example:
> Liger male Lion x female Tiger, is considerably larger. It is thought imprinted yet not expressed genes in both parents get cancled out,...
> 
> also the "Pumapard" a hybrid of a puma and a leopard. Both male puma with female leopard and male leopard with female puma pairings have produced offspring. In general, these hybrids have exhibited a tendency to dwarfism.
> 
> interesting...but those punnet squares "or software that does the same" still have a bearing on breeding be it big cats or dart frogs....
> 
> like I said...if its a quality frog war...FROG SHOW!...."The BS Stops When The Tailgate Drops" see if your dog hunts


(This isn't just a response to your quoted post, but to what seems to be your position in general...) 

Ok maybe you haven't read most of the thread, because you seem to have missed the point... 

Our questioning of their frogs quality/health (IMO) is mostly because they make some really bold claims and provide little to back it up, all while calling into question other breeders quality and business practices, and pushing conspiracy theories. Their frogs founding stock is from people in the hobby, so if they didn't do a crap ton of testing and treatments, there would be no reason for their frog collection not to have the same possibility of diseases and/or parasites that the average hobbyist might have. In short we believe their "SAFE" marketing BS to be BS, irresponsible and even potentially dangerous... *So we called them out on it. Do you feel that under those circumstances the ethical thing for us to do would have been to remain silent? *

You are right that we have a problem with their marketing, and that is part of the reason they are getting a lot of attention from us. IMO (and it seems that of many others), the have broken just about every taboo in this hobby short of stealing (though one could argue they've stolen others ideas and pawned them off as their own), and straight up ripping people off by taking their money and not delivering any frogs/supplies (that we know of... so far). *So we called them out on it. Do you feel that under those circumstances the ethical thing for us to do would have been to remain silent? *

It seems they've thrown away any trust they started out with, by what many of us feel is intentional misrepresentation of facts, pushing BS pseudoscience and arguably attempting to take advantage of the least informed in order to turn a profit. They also claimed at one point the "would not mix any species or varieties", then put up a bunch of hybrid frogs for sale... so more trust thrown out the window, and an example of what I think most of us consider unethical behavior. *So we called them out on it. Do you feel that under those circumstances the ethical thing for us to do would have been to remain silent?* 

Basically it boils down to many of us do not like the way they do business whether they raise healthy frogs or not, and we are trying to keep awareness up of our issues with what they are doing and how they are doing especially for new people entering the hobby. I have no doubt they can produce a healthy frog, it isn't rocket science... but the way they operate is offensive to a large portion of the hobby community and that is why these threads exist. So we called them out on it.* Do you feel that under those circumstances the ethical thing for us to do would have been to remain silent? *

Should we really just sit back and keep our mouths shut when someone is out there that in our minds represents a threat to this hobby, and especially new people entering the hobby? ...One who in our opinion operates in offensive and unethical ways? ...Is that how you go through life?

It is my understanding that "ethics" are a part of any science education (I was a secondary education science major myself for awhile), so with you having that background in science and at least some exposure to the concept of "ethics", it kinda boggles my mind how you can not be outraged by these people's actions... but you still have the right to voice your opinion, just as we do. *So you can rail against us railing against them, but really I'd love to know why you aren't right here with us given your background  

The hobby could always use more ethical/moral people with a background in science... So if that is you, then welcome! ...But if you've honestly read most of this thread and evaluated our arguments and evidence and found them lacking, and/or just feel we are making to big of deal over this... then I'm afraid it is going to be very hard for me personally to relate to you, because I just don't understand how anyone who is informed about what these people have been up to can be that ok with it, or upset that we are upset about it.

P.S. Just FYI, one of the main reasons several threads about them have existed and gone on and on, is because these people keep doing what in our minds is jacked up unethical BS... So we keep speaking up and addressing their BS as it arises. I'd love for them to stop and just go away but they don't, so this continues because we give a crap about this hobby and new people entering it, (Including people who basically if they haven't been here would find it difficult to be well informed about these people's practices and the hobby culture in general, regardless of their background in science or keeping other animals). *


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> 1. I did course work at a zoo.


No, not of course. What Zoo? What was your specific role there? If you're going to be boasting about this, YOU need to establish your credibility.

You've also made the claim that at least you attended some university. What university? When? what was your field of study? Did you earn a degree?



> 2. The big cat info was from a study, I'm sure I can find ref material.


Please do cite your source.



> 3. I have been in biological advisory capacity on a few projects.


Such as? Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Again when one is making claims in order to establish some credibility it is probably best to back them up with some thing verifiable.



> 4. Once you start losing a debate one starts personal attacks.


Well you're losing the debate, but I haven't seen you make any personal attacks yet. Please don't start.



> 5. Do you raise better frogs than " the vendor in question"?


Yes, absolutely.



> I have read some of the past conflicts, If these people "are not doing it right" then fine shine the light on them.


That's EXACTLY what we are doing.



> but it looks like bad blood over frog sales.....if you or other frog sellers have better goods then start some way to "grade stock"
> if these folks are "flipping" frogs.....or worse breaking the law importing...then rat them out to the feds.
> 
> as a note I am in no way affliated with any frog vendor...so stop the hate......I lived in SA from 06-2011....


You can keep parenting that point until the cows come home. It doesn't ring true. Vendors haven't weighed in and none that I've spoken to have felt much if any impact.

I would welcome some kind of objective way of grading frogs, but I seriously doubt such a project is feasible. Instead I choose to purchase frogs from reputable, respectable, and responsible hobbyists and vendors that don't resort to lies and misinformation to convince people that their frogs are somehow superior. I'll buy from those you share sound husbandry and information with the community rather than hiding behind lawyers and trademarks. I'll buy from people who have and breed frogs of known origena and lineages so I can be confident of what the are and not some stupid made up name or worse some cross of morphs or worse hybrids. I buy from people with honesty and integrity.

No one has said ever that they're doing illegal, so we can pretty much ignore this comment. Nobody hates you either, well at least I don't, I just very vehemently disagree with your opinions, please don't exaggerate your importance to me in that respect.

FWIW I don't hate the Wascher's either. I have a mixture of feelings and emotions with respect to them, but it most definitely isn't hate.

And I'm not sure really why I should care where you lived. Should I be particularly sympathetic to you because you happened to live in the city where I now live?


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Hey don't knock Oldsmobile... I got hit by a drunk driver in a Toyota, while in my Oldsmobile. I plowed through him and spun him across 4 lanes of traffic... so Oldsmobile FTW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (This isn't just a response to your quoted post, but to what seems to be your position in general...)
> 
> Ok maybe you haven't read most of the thread, because you seem to have missed the point...
> 
> Our questioning of their frogs quality/health (IMO) is mostly because they make some really bold claims and provide little to back it up, all while calling into question other breeders quality and business practices, and pushing conspiracy theories. Their frogs founding stock is from people in the hobby, so if they didn't do a crap ton of testing and treatments, there would be no reason for their frog collection not to have the same possibility of diseases and/or parasites that the average hobbyist might have. In short we believe their "SAFE" marketing BS to be BS, irresponsible and even potentially dangerous... *So we called them out on it. Do you feel that under those circumstances the ethical thing for us to do would have been to remain silent? *
> 
> You are right that we have a problem with their marketing, and that is part of the reason they are getting a lot of attention from us. IMO (and it seems that of many others), the have broken just about every taboo in this hobby short of stealing (though one could argue they've stolen others ideas and pawned them off as their own), and straight up ripping people off by taking their money and not delivering any frogs/supplies (that we know of... so far). *So we called them out on it. Do you feel that under those circumstances the ethical thing for us to do would have been to remain silent? *
> 
> It seems they've thrown away any trust they started out with, by what many of us feel is intentional misrepresentation of facts, pushing BS pseudoscience and arguably attempting to take advantage of the least informed in order to turn a profit. They also claimed at one point the "would not mix any species or varieties", then put up a bunch of hybrid frogs for sale... so more trust thrown out the window, and an example of what I think most of us consider unethical behavior. *So we called them out on it. Do you feel that under those circumstances the ethical thing for us to do would have been to remain silent?*
> 
> Basically it boils down to many of us do not like the way they do business whether they raise healthy frogs or not, and we are trying to keep awareness up of our issues with what they are doing and how they are doing especially for new people entering the hobby. I have no doubt they can produce a healthy frog, it isn't rocket science... but the way they operate is offensive to a large portion of the hobby community and that is why these threads exist. So we called them out on it.* Do you feel that under those circumstances the ethical thing for us to do would have been to remain silent? *
> 
> Should we really just sit back and keep our mouths shut when someone is out there that in our minds represents a threat to this hobby, and especially new people entering the hobby? ...One who in our opinion operates in offensive and unethical ways? ...Is that how you go through life?
> 
> It is my understanding that "ethics" are a part of any science education (I was a secondary education science major myself for awhile), so with you having that background in science and at least some exposure to the concept of "ethics", it kinda boggles my mind how you can not be outraged by these people's actions... but you still have the right to voice your opinion, just as we do. *So you can rail against us railing against them, but really I'd love to know why you aren't right here with us given your background
> 
> The hobby could always use more ethical/moral people with a background in science... So if that is you, then welcome! ...But if you've honestly read most of this thread and evaluated our arguments and evidence and found them lacking, and/or just feel we are making to big of deal over this... then I'm afraid it is going to be very hard for me personally to relate to you, because I just don't understand how anyone who is informed about what these people have been up to can be that ok with it, or upset that we are upset about it.
> 
> P.S. Just FYI, one of the main reasons several threads about them have existed and gone on and on, is because these people keep doing what in our minds is jacked up unethical BS... So we keep speaking up and addressing their BS as it arises. I'd love for them to stop and just go away but they don't, so this continues because we give a crap about this hobby and new people entering it, (Including people who basically if they haven't been here would find it difficult to be well informed about these people's practices and the hobby culture in general, regardless of their background in science or keeping other animals). *


*






Well said i agree with you 110%.*


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> 1. I did course work at a zoo.
> 
> 2. The big cat info was from a study, I'm sure I can find ref material.
> 
> 3. I have been in biological advisory capacity on a few projects.
> 
> 4. Once you start losing a debate one starts personal attacks.
> 
> 5. Do you raise better frogs than " the vendor in question"?
> 
> I have read some of the past conflicts, If these people "are not doing it right" then fine shine the light on them.
> but it looks like bad blood over frog sales.....if you or other frog sellers have better goods then start some way to "grade stock"
> if these folks are "flipping" frogs.....or worse breaking the law importing...then rat them out to the feds.
> 
> as a note I am in no way affliated with any frog vendor...so stop the hate......I lived in SA from 06-2011....



I don't agree with all of it but you gotta expect when you're the 1 guy out of every 100 or 1000 reading/replying to these threads that doesn't seem to have a problem with these people after reading the thread... You're gonna catch some flak. 

*As for #5 and the rest...*

Basically even if their frogs are healthy, they are tainted by the very fact they came from these people... So anyone starting in the hobby with these frogs who wants to breed, sell/trade later is in for a rude awakening when no one wants to touch their frogs... Then they are or at least were selling hybrids along side non hybrids all while operating in what we feel are unethical ways (and being caught in at least one lie about them not mixing species or varieties)... So that is a major reason why we are here trying to keep people informed. 

I mean when you market a "designer frog" for considerably more money then non hybrids but can't sell it and have already demonstrated questionable ethics and sleazy marketing tactics... why should anyone trust that you won't just decide to claim that designer frog is pure blood to recoup some money... Not all hybrids come out looking all that different from purebloods, and even non hybrids can throw aberrant offsprings... So they expect us to trust them? ...Hellz no, not after their behavior... and that is another reason why we are here speaking up, to warn others... Buyer beware. 

*Also, as far as we can tell very few people have been buying their frogs... or will admit it at least (Red flag?), so take it from someone with 10 years in the hobby but who actually doesn't breed/sell very many frogs, (so in that respect has no dog in this fight)... NO it isn't about that at all. *

It is about them (In our opinion) breaking most every taboo in this hobby, and what we feel is offensive/disrespectful behavior, giving questionable husbandry advice and pushing BS pseudoscience.

There are many other commercial breeders and individual hobbyist that *WE KNOW,* sell a lot of frogs, and we aren't all over them like a cheap suit, so your theory that this is about competition doesn't hold much water. It's about ethics and protecting a hobby we love... These people are a threat to that (IMO).

The commercial side of it is only a factor because with their large operation and 1000's of frogs they claim to have and the fact they are willing to sell hybrids along side non hybrids, and have in our minds demonstrated a propensity for sleazy marketing and unethical behavior... They potentially represent a huge risk to the hobby, much more so then some random guy producing just a few frogs. 

If these 7000+ frogs exist, then they have to end up somewhere eventually... and in a hobby this small 7000+ questionable frogs from questionable people, is a huge threat to anyone ever again being relatively sure what they wanted to buy (pure blood) was what they actually got or didn't get mixed in with other pure blood frogs in the hobby at some point. 

If these frogs don't make it into the hobby then basically these people have produced 7000+ frogs that they'll either have to look after, or put down... another potential reason to be pretty PO'd at them.


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> that kinda says it all....
> 
> David Attenburrow would be proud you speak for all in the hobby


It's *Attenborough*, please do not take the lord's name in vain, thanks.

That's all I'm adding to this, everyone else has it well covered.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> It's *Attenborough*, please do not take the lord's name in vain, thanks.
> 
> That's all I'm adding to this, everyone else has it well covered.


I just nosebarfed my coffee. Thanks ass!


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I just nosebarfed my coffee. Thanks ass!


You are most welcome. Just trying to spread the good word.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> 1. I did course work at a zoo.


Okay, I have to say so what to this comment... The reason is that often any school group that goes to a zoo does course work. This is also before we get into things like paid for programs at the zoos that give students lessons on animals/conservation and so forth. 




MoCarp said:


> 2. The big cat info was from a study, I'm sure I can find ref material.


Was it peer reviewed? 



MoCarp said:


> 3. I have been in biological advisory capacity on a few projects.


And what does that actually mean? If for example you were acting as a biological advisory for fertilizer runoff from a field, it doesn't mean that your qualified to act as a source for some of the genetic claims you've thrown out there... 



MoCarp said:


> 4. Once you start losing a debate one starts personal attacks.


I suggest you go back and look at your appearance in this thread where you began by mocking people. So to attempt to play the victim card here is more than a little late and actually further discredits your posts. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> I suggest you go back and look at your appearance in this thread where you began by mocking people. So to attempt to play the victim card here is more than a little late and actually further discredits your posts.


To add to the point, you may want to drop the sulky/sullen attitude when you get challenged due to how you came onto the forum. The forum can be very forgiving if you choose to embrace it. Putting down people, making comments about laughing at people isn't going to get you anywhere except whacked for each and every error you make going forward. 

It's not too late to turn back from the stupid side. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

* This is just a friendly reminder to start steering things back on topic before I have to delete any posts... 






Please keep it civil.


*


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Doug, I have seen you at work at the San Antonio zoo....my only point

and yes ethics are a huge part of science...animal husbandry

I must admit my 1st post had not taken in all the "past history" of the DFW people...

I looked at the DFW site and saw prices well below what I had been seeing
the marketing side of me saw the "F.U.D" in sales come out.

I am sure a good deal of "hobby supporting cash" can come from frog sales
if I made nice coin on frog sales and some slap and tickle opperation was selling for 20 bucks for what I'd been selling for 150..well I'd have pulled all my hair out too..

trashing someone else's stock and or business practices when you sell frogs as well.. give the *random* looker a 1st impression of sour grapes...a post in another thread hints that DFW has driven prices down...


in the world of pets you have nana-n-pop-pop chihuahua farms or puppy mills, ether can produce sub standard goods. "never know if they got really tired that day"

all smart assness aside.....I have gleaned a great deal of good info on viv building, keeping and caring for frogs here.

"ROLL TIDE ROLL"


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Doug, I have seen you at work at the San Antonio zoo....my only point


Have you now? Tell me what department I work in? What do I do there? When was this as well? The public at the SA zoo usually doesn't see my work.



> in the world of pets you have nana-n-pop-pop chihuahua farms or puppy mills, ether can produce sub standard goods. "never know if they got really tired that day"


The whole frogmill aspect has already been addressed about them. The Wascher's don't seem concerned about breeding their frogs to death. As you read more here and elsewhere you'll understand the need to rest frogs, allow for breaks in breeding,seasonal rests, etc. something the Wascher's either don't know about or care about. Breeding a metric $#!+ ton of very common over saturated frogs is bad for the frogs, the hobby, and though they're seemingly unaware, bad for their business model as well.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Btw

nobody say nuthin'


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> * This is just a friendly reminder to start steering things back on topic before I have to delete any posts...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep it civil.
> 
> 
> *


...and this is the final reminder. Take it somewhere else if it doesn't directly relate to the topic at hand please. Enough of this personal stuff.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> ...and this is the final reminder. Take it somewhere else if it doesn't directly relate to the topic at hand please. Enough of this personal stuff.


I agree. Let's keep the thread open and focused on the original purpose: increasing and maintaining awareness of USA Frog/DFW/USADARTFROGS/Designer Frogs/[email protected]#$%


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I looked at the DFW site and saw prices well below what I had been seeing
> the marketing side of me saw the "F.U.D" in sales come out.
> 
> I am sure a good deal of "hobby supporting cash" can come from frog sales
> if I made nice coin on frog sales and some slap and tickle opperation was selling for 20 bucks for what I'd been selling for 150..well I'd have pulled all my hair out too..



Yeah, I get it. 

Fortunately there are some pretty savvy customers around here. For instance, DFW has 2 month old frogs for $14 right now (Good God, 14$?). For the same frog a bit older I charge over double that. I don't produce thousands of frogs but I have a slow steady stream of tadpoles coming out of the frog room. Over the last year I've only posted a couple ads because usually somewhere between 2 and 4 months someone will call me and ask what I have and buy a handful. I don't claim to breed the biggest, or the fastest growing, or even flawless frogs. I just do my best to learn, improve, and randomly test periodically. I don't hustle and occasionally I get sick of shipping and just sell wholesale to some responsible reptile/amphibian stores in my area where, incidentally, I get more than 14 bucks a frog.

Bigger breeders aren't concerned at all, in fact they will probably see more business because people will trust the lineage of their stock. Where DFW should be winning is with the "no name" guys like me that just sell occasional offspring to pay for supplements and flies. I have seen no such impact yet, and really don't expect to.

Low prices count for a lot, but not everything. Their prices are awesome and if they had come onto the scene with the resources, capitol and commitment that they have now and just kept their mouths shut and left crossbreeding out of it, they would own this hobby. Better yet if they had been friendly, honest, and professional (like Dendrobati, Mistking, SYR, Junglebox, NEherp, or a ton of other sponsors I've seen start up)...at those prices...hell, I would be buying from them.

But they really shot themselves in the foot by claiming expertise on every subject and then, when proven wrong, doubling down on the BS. People forget that being resolute and standing up for what you believe in is only a positive quality if you're right. Otherwise it's just stubborn stupidity.

But I'm not really saying anything new. They have crazy low prices. Sometimes that's a deal, and sometimes you get what you pay for.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This is my last post on this thread....Doug..others...I get it..the DFW people are not who you want to buy frogs from by an informed frogger...

I came to this site to learn, I have done so, I have spent far more the the "avg" 
new frogger....because I want to "do it right".

and not one penny to DFW.....


as a note their phone is no longer in service

Next time im in SA, doug... lunch is on me...then you might see I am not the enemy here


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So I see they are no longer asking for a confidentiality agreement/invitation only for the next new Wacher Frog Day Conference.
Of coarse Rick will require everyone to be finger printed and agree to a back ground check.

That let`s me out


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> This is my last post on this thread....Doug..others...I get it..the DFW people are not who you want to buy frogs from by an informed frogger...
> 
> I came to this site to learn, I have done so, I have spent far more the the "avg"
> new frogger....because I want to "do it right".
> 
> and not one penny to DFW.....
> 
> 
> as a note their phone is no longer in service
> 
> Next time im in SA, doug... lunch is on me...then you might see I am not the enemy here


And you can stop by my frogroom, cold beer is on me. I gotta level with you though man, I have never worked for the San Antonio Zoo. Still not really sure what that was about.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I called and got an answering machine, are you sure their phone is disconnected?


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Doug, I have seen you at work at the San Antonio zoo....my only point
> 
> and yes ethics are a huge part of science...animal husbandry
> 
> I must admit my 1st post had not taken in all the "past history" of the DFW people...
> 
> I looked at the DFW site and saw prices well below what I had been seeing
> the marketing side of me saw the "F.U.D" in sales come out.
> 
> I am sure a good deal of "hobby supporting cash" can come from frog sales
> if I made nice coin on frog sales and some slap and tickle opperation was selling for 20 bucks for what I'd been selling for 150..well I'd have pulled all my hair out too..
> 
> trashing someone else's stock and or business practices when you sell frogs as well.. give the *random* looker a 1st impression of sour grapes...a post in another thread hints that DFW has driven prices down...
> 
> 
> in the world of pets you have nana-n-pop-pop chihuahua farms or puppy mills, ether can produce sub standard goods. "never know if they got really tired that day"
> 
> all smart assness aside.....I have gleaned a great deal of good info on viv building, keeping and caring for frogs here.
> 
> "ROLL TIDE ROLL"


I understand... 

At some point in this thread and in many others I've commented on the "unique" culture of the Dart frog hobby, and how all this might look from someone kinda new/on the outside, and that I might have been thinking some of the same things you were had this all happened back when I was a new to the community. But these wackjob dart froggers "assimilated" me, and it turns out they actually have really good reasons for doing and not doing most of whatever it is they do or don't do, etc...etc... bla bla la de da....


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> This is my last post on this thread....Doug..others...I get it..the DFW people are not who you want to buy frogs from by an informed frogger...
> 
> I came to this site to learn, I have done so, I have spent far more the the "avg"
> new frogger....because I want to "do it right".
> 
> and not one penny to DFW.....
> 
> 
> as a note their phone is no longer in service
> 
> Next time im in SA, doug... lunch is on me...then you might see I am not the enemy here



Thank you for taking the time to read and understand this thread, the misinformation and bad husbandry espoused by them on their web site over and over and changed by them hourly as it was pointed out on this site was merely the beginning. Understanding the morph confusion that will be added in by them naming existing morphs with their TMd names will only add to the confusion of managing locality specific frogs. Then the mixed morph designer $189 frogs which has now added hybrid morphs to our body of species, that will soon be lost as what are these frogs...oh yea they are powder blues, no cobalts. These are the reasons this community rose up so vehemently against a group that insisted on thumbing their nose at doing the right thing. If they go out of business it would be good for all of us so that anyone thinking of doing the same thing would realize what huge waste of resources following their path would be, hopefully a disconnected phone is sign that Doug and John and so many others have kept their damage to a minimum.
I assume by the post above you do realize what this small cult has done, thank you for not drinking the Kool aid.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Cult, lol for a second I thought you were refering to "us".

Btw - you can now apparently sort by "diet"? SMH


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

For the newbs reading this thread, what you see quoted below is BAD advice and one of the many reasons that poor little Ricky has earned an unflattering reputation.

Encouraging people to overstock their enclosures may sell more frogs, but in the end will result in a lot of dead frogs and unhappy customers (whom will be blamed by Ricky for not being experienced enough ...)

Ugh ... it never ends with Ricky. I guess by not specifying the size of the enclosure he has left himself a way to backtrack on this.



designerfrogs.com website said:


> As for the number of frogs, that requires a bit of a complicated answer. The number of juvenile frogs that could comfortably live in a large tank like that would depend mostly on the amount of leaf litter and cover, assuming of course a sufficient amount of food was sprinkled around the tank to feed them all. *In a tank with lots of leaf litter and cover, I would say, conservatively, 25 of the 3-6 month olds, or approximately 15 adults.* That many frogs would require more leaves to be added regularly to cover up the waste and keep a healthy compost cycle going, as well as replenish hiding spots.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> For the newbs reading this thread, what you see quoted below is BAD advice and one of the many reasons that poor little Ricky has earned an unflattering reputation.
> 
> Encouraging people to overstock their enclosures may sell more frogs, but in the end will result in a lot of dead frogs and unhappy customers (whom will be blamed by Ricky for not being experienced enough ...)
> 
> Ugh ... it never ends with Ricky. I guess by not specifying the size of the enclosure he has left himself a way to backtrack on this.


The question reffered to a 150 gallon tank. Still, I think that's too many. But apparently tincs don't fight, so.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> The question reffered to a 150 gallon tank. Still, I think that's too many. But apparently tincs don't fight, so.


Nope. No aggression at all because they don't like it.

NEWSFLASH Ricky, doesn't matter wether you like it or not, it is aggression. You know if you'ld sent your kid to college, he might have eventually taken a course in animal behavior. Aggression takes on many forms. Yes, they DO battle. But that kinda puts a damper on your cute cuddly frogs that bond with you.  bTw, look up anthropomorphizing. 

Our frogs can be remarkably aggressive, and the fact that you don't provide accurate information about the nature of these animals, further REPROVES just how irresponsible you are.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



designerfrogs.com website said:


> Every review posted here is UNSOLICITED and reprinted with the express written permission of the customer. The original e-mails are secured in house.


Oh Ricky .... the link in that very sentence links to an email in which you clearly solicit a review by asking:



designerfrogs.com website said:


> We never post a review unless the customer specifically says it is okay. May I use a portion of what you wrote and simply end it with "LW, NC" or something like that?


So, in and of itself, it may seem like no big deal and it's not. But, what it highlights is the usual deception and BS from Mr. Phenotype. 

It also shows that the author may not be the brightest bulb in the box. Who makes a statement with a link in it that directly contradicts the statement itself?


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> The question reffered to a 150 gallon tank. Still, I think that's too many. But apparently tincs don't fight, so.


Yep, I see it now. Still bad advice. In fact most of what's written there is bad advice. But we already knew that, didn't we?


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Oh Ricky .... the link in that very sentence links to an email in which you clearly solicit a review by asking:
> 
> 
> 
> So, in and of itself, it may seem like no big deal and it's not. But, what it highlights is the usual deception and BS from Mr. Phenotype.
> 
> It also shows that the author may not be the brightest bulb in the box. Who makes a statement with a link in it that directly contradicts the statement itself?


I wish we could track down that persons email and write them...


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm extremely concerned that this person that purchased from them is apparently from NC. I will have to place extra scrutiny on local purchases from now on.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Does anyone else think it's odd that the email reads exactly like the bullshit they post on their website. Almost as though they emailed that to themselves just to have a review. That would just be silly though I don't think they would do that

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> Does anyone else think it's odd that the email reads exactly like the bullshit they post on their website.


I`d say pretty much everyone here


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just to add some clarification about the behavior to what was said in the e-mail... If the frogs never went into hiding, that is because they are extremely stressed about not being able to find anything that they recognize as "home".. As a result, the frogs attempt to locate something they recognize. This is often reported as the "animals are happily exploring" but in reality they are stressed out the wazoo. 

I guess the real interpretation of the behavior isn't a good selling point... 

Some self-appointed scientific and unwanted comments 

Ed


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow,
That just made me sad.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yeah, frogs go nuts when they are introduced to a viv ime. Shipping and then handling and prodding from a bizarre giant would seem like a very stressful experience, no?


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They've trademarked Vivarium Ready.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

From them..

" A first of it`s kind all day pet frog breeder conference and social meeting"

Wow, why didn`t we think of that


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> From them..
> 
> " A first of it`s kind all day pet frog breeder conference and social meeting"
> 
> Wow, why didn`t we think of that


Hmm, I thought someone did. Isn't it called "American Frog day", and has been going on for like 20 years? 

Home | American Frog Day


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Hmm, I thought someone did. Isn't it called "American Frog day", and has been going on for like 20 years?
> 
> Home | American Frog Day


In their defense, I expect this event _will_ be very different from Frog Day.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> In their defense, I expect this event _will_ be very different from Frog Day.


I'm pretty sure that isn't the first time that kind of thing has been on their website. If I remember correctly (and I could be mis-remembering) that they trademarked a similar name after last years' frogday. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I could have sworn they had something called "IAD" years ago. Google is your friend Ricky, along with spell check.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I`m sure they`re well aware of all the shows.
Again, they want their uninformed "customers" to believe they invented something new.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh dear,

Overall a rule of reason will be used when presenting the data, and we know the unskilled will attack the value of this data set even though it has never before been presented to the world. While a great start, knowing the constant critic always like to find fault, we wish they would then replicate our work and do a better job and prove us wrong. 

New post to the update section (excerpt)

We might not find fault in it and replicate it if you showed us your results, you know, like a real scientist? Also, no one cares much about phenotypes of frogs. That isn't what biology is into anymore.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I swear man after reading their new update I don`t think I could bring myself to look at that site again.
I`m cashing in my chips while I still have a few brain cells left.


----------



## TapDart91

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ok i just got some frogs from DF i was unaware of any of this. But all of my frogs seem healthy and flawless is it possible they started doing things right or should i order from another sight before i breed to widen the gene pool?


----------



## Dale D

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I don't know if it is OK to post a link to another site but I came across this.

Anyone heard of designer frogs.com


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dale D said:


> I don't know if it is OK to post a link to another site but I came across this.
> 
> Anyone heard of designer frogs.com


 Well there you go. Got frogs from them gettin more from some one else to widen gene pool. WTF. Glad to be member of this forum to much goofy info out there.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TapDart91 said:


> Ok i just got some frogs from DF i was unaware of any of this. But all of my frogs seem healthy and flawless is it possible they started doing things right or should i order from another sight before i breed to widen the gene pool?


It wasn't that they take bad care, it is just that they do everything the wrong way via their "science" and saying that we know nothing. Please NEVER order from them again and I wouldn't recommend breeding the frogs. You have no idea what they really are.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> Well there you go. Got frogs from them gettin more from some one else to widen gene pool. WTF. Glad to be member of this forum to much goofy info out there.


this comment is hardly constructive... Clearly this person is new and may just need a bit of guidance to stop them from doing that.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TapDart91 said:


> Ok i just got some frogs from DF i was unaware of any of this. But all of my frogs seem healthy and flawless is it possible they started doing things right or should i order from another sight before i breed to widen the gene pool?


That all depends on what you ordered. It's quite likely that your frogs are "healthy", although DFW seems to take more risks with that than is considered prudent. They haven't "started doing things right" unless they've changed their entire sales focus, which currently appears to be taking advantage of newbies with misinformation backed by non-science. 

Out of curiosity, what did they sell you? What did they tell you the frogs were?


----------



## Eric Walker

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TapDart91 said:


> Ok i just got some frogs from DF i was unaware of any of this. But all of my frogs seem healthy and flawless is it possible they started doing things right or should i order from another sight before i breed to widen the gene pool?



This may be a good opportunity to have some of their frogs tested and at least get results from a very tiny sample of the " thousands" of frogs they claim to have. What do you say Tapdart? Are you willing to have fecals run as well as possibly pcr testing to make sure the frogs you paid for and received are as healthy as they claim they are? Both tests are less then 30$ and you would be getting peace of mind.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Eric Walker said:


> This may be a good opportunity to have some of their frogs tested and at least get results from a very tiny sample of the " thousands" of frogs they claim to have. What do you say Tapdart? Are you willing to have fecals run as well as possibly pcr testing to make sure the frogs you paid for and received are as healthy as they claim they are? Both tests are less then 30$ and you would be getting peace of mind.


Probably a good idea, but you know Rick will just blame his customer if something is wrong.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> That all depends on what you ordered. It's quite likely that your frogs are "healthy", although DFW seems to take more risks with that than is considered prudent. They haven't "started doing things right" unless they've changed their entire sales focus, which currently appears to be taking advantage of newbies with misinformation backed by non-science.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what did they sell you? What did they tell you the frogs were?


Hey boondoggle, I just wanted to tell you that the summarization of some of the problems we have with these guys over on the other forums is one of the best summarizations of the situation that I've seen detailed yet. Kudos to you sir. Something like that really should be a sticky here and every dendrobatid based forum.

IMO, you should cut and paste it here.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Probably a good idea, but you know Rick will just blame his customer if something is wrong.


At least it would give credence to bad reviews and a Bad Guy thread on BOI.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

lets not start a witch hunt on testing these things. It could go both ways... if these frogs test negative then it vindicates him (you know what he thinks of small sample sizes already).

If the owner wants to test them for their own sanity... let it be at that. It is not going to become a matter of public scrutiny and we will not be having the results posted here. 

Sorry guys, just not worth it.


----------



## grendel88

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TapDart91 said:


> Ok i just got some frogs from DF i was unaware of any of this. But all of my frogs seem healthy and flawless is it possible they started doing things right or should i order from another sight before i breed to widen the gene pool?


Hey TapDart,
Please do not be alarmed by the members' exuberance. We have this thread because we have been trying to prevent the Waschers from taking advantage of someone like yourself. That is, someone who is not informed as to what they have been up to. Please peruse the thread and learn from it. That is all we, as hobbyists can ask. Keep in mind that you are very welcome here and there are hundreds, if not thousands of intelligent and skilled people here that would love for your interest in the hobby to grow. Many of them are more than willing to spend some time answering questions or giving tips about frogs. If, in the future, you do breed or sell your frogs, please make sure to let potential buyers know the source of your frogs. YOU are not the pariah, DFW/DF/Whatever is. 

Jay


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Hey boondoggle, I just wanted to tell you that the summarization of some of the problems we have with these guys over on the other forums is one of the best summarizations of the situation that I've seen detailed yet. Kudos to you sir. Something like that really should be a sticky here and every dendrobatid based forum.
> 
> IMO, you should cut and paste it here.



Thanks Doug. I feel like an egomaniac quoting myself but it was fun to present our arguments to people new to the whole situation. They got an ear-full. I'll paste it here. Feel free to correct me on any issues I may have skewed as I was in impassioned rant state when I wrote it.



> I drifted over from another forum but wanted to chime in. I can feel your frustration.
> 
> Just a bit of history...Designer frogs was started not very long ago as a family operation. They often brag about the experience they have with thousands and thousands of frogs, but have really only owned frogs for about 3 years and have only been on anyone's radar for about the last year. It's now clear that from early on their goal was to create "Designer Frogs", a derogatory term they've adopted and rebranded from the hobby, from the very start. Many hobbyists became suspicious of this early on when it seemed that the website (whatever it was called back then, they've gone through some name changes) seemed to focus a lot of webspace on the argument that there was no difference between the regional varieties of dart frogs and that because these regional crossbreeds can occur, then they must occur in the wild. They quoted respected scientific sources selectively and out of context to make this argument, completely ignoring the natural barriers that create and maintain these regional varieties in the wild. They even claimed that they had completely mapped the dart frog phenotype and could create through crossbreeding frogs that weren't just indistinguishable from other varieties (perhaps some that weren't even in the hobby), but actually WERE those varieties. The "science" they used to back those claims was ridiculous even from a novices point of view.
> 
> Obviously they had seen the popularity of crossbred stock with other animals and saw it as an unexploited niche in the hobby and assumed that it would be wildly popular. As you're probably learning now the great majority of the dart frog community puts much more value on traceable natural lines. It probably has to do with the conservation-minded people that the hobby appeals to. It's not really conservation by any means, but most hobbyists would like to preserve the frogs natural state, as many may be gone/unavailable in our lifetimes. Right or wrong, that is what the hobby seems to value. Initially Designerfrogs prices were on par with the rest of the hobby, and their "hybrids" were about 3-4 times that cost. Eventually they had to lower their prices well below the hobby to make any sales, including their "hybrids". Now they have a problem. They are seen as a pariah by the legitimate hobby and they claim to have 7000+ frogs that the hobby wont touch, so they've focused their sales on wholesaling to pet stores, that really only care about cost, and the new and uniformed. The way they've targeted the uniformed is by claiming/implying that many of the "innovations" that have been common practice for years in the hobby were, not only their invention, but that they're the only ones who offer such a service, for instance:
> 
> 1)They've trademarked the name "SAFE" and use it interchangeably with "non-poisonous", and they strongly imply that other breeders are selling dangerously poison frogs. Wild frogs are poison because of their "wild" diet. Some wild caught frogs retain some toxicity for a while, but the vast majority of frogs available are captive bred and any frog on a captive diet cannot sequester enough alkaloids to create appreciable toxins. By that measure, almost all dart frogs are safe.
> 
> 2)They muddy the language in any conversation about pathogens. They will claim that their collection is pathogen/chytrid/parasite free because they are trademarked SAFE (wait, didn't that mean non toxic?). When asked if they do any testing they say they don't have to because their animals are guaranteed 100% healthy. No testing + rampant crossbreeding, thus encouraging novel pathogens = 100% healthy.
> 
> 3) They claim to be the only ones who offer a live arrival guarantee. Every reputable breeder offers that. It is literally the minimum you must do to be considered a legitimate breeder.
> 
> 4) They claim to be shipping experts that can ship in any weather. Again, safe, responsible, legal shipping is the minimum any legitimate breeder can offer.
> 
> 5) They claim that their crossbreeding will put less stress on wild imports, when it historically has CLEARLY shown to put more stress on wild imports by weakening confidence in the validity of current hobby strains.
> 
> 6) They've given really bad husbandry advice to newbies in an effort to sell more frogs, i.e. mixing and overcrowding.
> 
> 7) They've done their best to demonize methylparaben (additive used in many fruit fly culture recipes). All the available science shows it is harmless in the quantities it's used in, but they've launched a smear campaign on it's use to cast a shadow over other breeders and distract from the actual health concerns that Designerfrogs risks.
> 
> 8) They claim that their frogs are much, much larger than other breeders frogs of the same age and sex-able earlier. I'm really oversimplifying here but basically the factors contributing to growth are genetics, feeding, absence of stress, absence of toxins. They purchased their founding stock from other hobbyists...same genetics. They feed every other day...not powerfeeding. They overcrowd frogs...contributes to stress. They don't use methylparaben...many breeders do, many do not, the science says it makes no difference. I don't have any evidence that their frogs are any larger or smaller as it's an unprovable claim, but it would be very easy to just shave a couple months off the frogs age and voila, you have the largest frogs for their age...not much of a claim.
> 
> 9) They anthropomorphize the frogs to a ridiculous extent. It's one thing to advertise happy healthy frogs, it's quite another to claim that the frogs you breed enjoy human company, look forward to interactions with the owners, are happier if they are purchased and kept with the other BFF frogs they've been raised with, and are guaranteed to never have territorial conflicts with the BFF frogs they've been purchased with. These were all actual claims.
> 
> 10) Things got real creepy when the owner got tired of the online criticism and started threatening law suits, tracing IP addresses and asking for personal information in an attempt to intimidate and stop the comments/observations. He's backed off recently because he kind of went to far and published something on his website that could be construed as harassment.
> 
> 11) They've renamed species of frogs in a direct attempt to muddy the waters. It's an attempt to de-legitimize known lines of frogs, and legitimize artificially created lines of frogs. They claim it's to differentiate their frogs from other breeders, but it's the really a misinformation campaign to put crossbreeds on an even playing field.
> 
> This is literally a sampling of just some of the issues many of us have had with Designerfrogs. Almost any of the above points is designed to fool a buyer before he gets a chance to become a little more informed. I could keep going, but this post is probably too long for anyone to read as is. The bottom line is that Designerfrogs has invested a ton of money into a venture which most hobbyists recognize as bad for the hobby. Instead of backing up and correcting the major issues, they've doubled down and thrown up smokescreens. They proven themselves dishonest and have 7000 frogs of questionable heritage that they need to get rid of. They've already stated that they do not recognize natural occurring variations as legitimate, so maybe the original poster got pure azureus, and maybe he didn't. If they're claiming they are pure, then they probably are...but you can see that there may be pressures for them not to be honest about a designation that they have publicly said they don't respect anyway. Even if you don't disagree with the production of crossbreeds, they way they've gone about it is deceptive and sleazy.
> 
> ..and while I don't have any adult azureus pairs now, I sold my last two pairs for $150/pair plus shipping. For common frogs like azureus, that's not atypical.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay, so now they claim that their frogs are domesticated. The definition of domesticated from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary: to breed or train (an animal) to need and accept the care of human beings : to tame (an animal).


You're telling me that these guys couldn't still survive in their natural habitat? I now expect all of your frogs to perform tricks on command. Oh? That's not possible? Shocker. You "domesticated" nothing. At the most, you are misinterpreting the term for your own benefit on the basis of your ludicrous phenotypic studies that aren't scientifically valuable, wherefore the frogs have become "accustomed to human presence, which you cannot prove. Further, The Convention on Biological Diversity states (about domestication, that a domesticated species is), and I quote, "(a)species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs." You have not, never have, and never will do this. Frogs aren't dogs. They will never be in Paris Hilton's purse like you so desperately wish they would be, Ricky! And damn it, if you are going to use a scientific term, at least make sure you use it with some shred of correctness, because it'll make my job a bit easier and will prevent you from looking like a complete fool. Don't you care about the little dignity you have have left? Get over yourselves. 

/rant


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh boy! Now we don't have a genus and species, we have a *Genus / SAFE® Species*. For ex: Non-Injurious Dendrobates / Domesticated Auratus

Also: A new and utterly ridiculous guarantee! 

Frog COUPLES and our 18 Guarantee:
We photograph and catalog all of the frogs we sell for posterity and proof of conformation. We are so confident in our quality, and considering the resources allocated to grow this business and our plan to be around a long time, if you buy a COUPLE and upgrade to the BREEDER BLOODLINE option, if your frogs fail to produce a "good egg" (i.e., a tadpole in the water determines a "good egg") for you before the end of a full eighteen (18) months of age, simply photograph them and contact us. After we verify frog identity and compare condition with our own archived photo set, we will swap the pair for you with a proven tadpole producing pair of the same variety! All you have to do is send them back to us, and we will send you the proven pair. You pay the freight to us and we pay the freight to you! No refunds, and the guarantee is void if the frog(s) is/are not well cared for–we reserve the right to make the determination, becasue we care for so many. ALL of our repeat customers will receive special consideration. (This guarantee is not transferable and only available to the original, non-commercial, purchaser having the upgrade guarantee code we issue them.) PERFECT!


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Oh boy! Now we don't have a genus and species, we have a *Genus / SAFE® Species*. For ex: Non-Injurious Dendrobates / Domesticated Auratus
> 
> Also: A new and utterly ridiculous guarantee!
> 
> Frog COUPLES and our 18 Guarantee:
> We photograph and catalog all of the frogs we sell for posterity and proof of conformation. We are so confident in our quality, and considering the resources allocated to grow this business and our plan to be around a long time, if you buy a COUPLE and upgrade to the BREEDER BLOODLINE option, if your frogs fail to produce a "good egg" (i.e., a tadpole in the water determines a "good egg") for you before the end of a full eighteen (18) months of age, simply photograph them and contact us. After we verify frog identity and compare condition with our own archived photo set, we will swap the pair for you with a proven tadpole producing pair of the same variety! All you have to do is send them back to us, and we will send you the proven pair. You pay the freight to us and we pay the freight to you! No refunds, and the guarantee is void if the frog(s) is/are not well cared for–we reserve the right to make the determination, becasue we care for so many. ALL of our repeat customers will receive special consideration. (This guarantee is not transferable and only available to the original, non-commercial, purchaser having the upgrade guarantee code we issue them.) PERFECT!


Wow. They maintain that they have an population of 100% healthy animals that do not need testing because the founding stock was "healthy". Now they will take a frog back in exchange after 18 months. I can't wait to see the logical somersaults Rick will have to perform to explain why that's OK.


----------



## LoganR

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TapDart91 said:


> Ok i just got some frogs from DF i was unaware of any of this. But all of my frogs seem healthy and flawless is it possible they started doing things right or should i order from another sight before i breed to widen the gene pool?


Welcome to Dendroboard and welcome to the hobby - the time consuming, wallet shrinking, space eating, thoroughly enjoyable hobby  I am sure we will be welcoming others like you who got their first frogs from DF/DFW (and whatever else they call themselves), and we need to be ready to accept that, if DF/DFW did nothing else right, they at least opened up the world of dart frogs to a new person. Now we can hopefully offer advice to keep you in the hobby for years to come.

I've kept dart frogs for nearly 25 years, starting back in the day when most frogs were sold without much background information (you'll see that at a lot of reptile shows, this hasn't changed). So, you are kind of starting off in the same place. You've bought frogs from someone that may or may not know much about the origins of the line of frogs they sold you.

This doesn't mean that you can't thoroughly enjoy those frogs. I still have a tank with offspring of some of the first frogs I bought in the 80s. I don't breed them now (though I did many years ago), but I sure as heck enjoy them. You made a commitment to these animals when you bought them, and there is no reason you can't enjoy them for many years to come.

But as you read this thread, you will see the many problems that many (most?) dart frog enthusiasts have with DF/DFW. I would hope you choose not to breed these particular frogs, but if you do decide to breed your frogs (or they decide it for you) or you ever need to get rid of your frogs, it is only fair to reveal their origin. I am sure there are plenty people that don't care about the origin of the frogs, but many, including myself, do care, and it would only be fair to be honest about it.

I hope your new frogs are healthy and that they do live for many years. It's probably a safe bet to ignore any husbandry advice (if any) that you received from the vendor. Keep reading and reading and reading about how to keep them happy. Not everyone has the same opinions, but there is a ton of advice on dendroboard of people who have years of experience. Find what works for your frogs and for you.

Welcome to the hobby. Now what are your next frogs going to be? <grin> Most people can't stop at just one species/locality.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Apparently, they cannot wrap there heads around why you should test for disease. Hint: it has nothing to do with quality.

On the subject of trademarks in the U.S., trademarks are indicators of source of the goods or services, and source alone. They do not speak to the attributes of the goods or services. Their sole function is to be an identifier of the source of the goods or services. For us, USA Frog, to use a generic trademark for our frogs would frustrate the purpose and growth of our company, becasue a lot of generic frogs are very poor quality, and according to the hobby need to be tested for disease. We do not want our top quality animals lumped in with the poor quality, diseased, illegally imported, animals the hobby is constantly policing because the problem is real. We stand behind our quality and the perfect health of every frog we sell. We offer a Health and Satisfaction Guarantee and to this day, NOBODY else offers that security. We want to be known as the source of OUR frogs because of our commitment to outstanding quality, and professional customer service, and want nothing to do with the hobby problems with diseases, illegal imports, poison or toxic frogs, poor quality, etc. Thus, unquestionably we use our own trademarks for our frogs and wish to be known as the source of them. One of our trademarks is our SAFE brand as part of our guarantee!



Please stop disrespecting and insulting people who have done much for this hobby than you. Go away

Sincerely, 

Nearly everyone who has posted on this thread


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Returns

We photograph every frog we send. We only send competely healthy frogs, but we need to leave the care to the new owners. 

There are no returns on live animals. Shipping charges are never refundable. 


No returns now eh? What happened to your guarantee about pairs? 

After we verify frog identity and compare condition with our own archived photo set, we will swap the pair for you with a proven tadpole producing pair of the same variety! * All you have to do is send them back to us*, and we will send you the proven pair. You pay the freight to us and we pay the freight to you! 


Do they just throw darts at words on the wall and slap them together no matter what? Blathering idiots who just like to heat themselves talk, LOL


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



designerfrogs.com website said:


> Summer/Fall, 2015 (TBA)
> 
> *[IF YOU ARE A COMMERCIAL ENTITY AND WOULD LIKE TO ATTEND, PLEASE CONTACT US! WE MAY MAKE A PORTION OF THIS BUSINESS ONLY AS NEEDED.]
> *
> Pet Frog Breeder conference here at USA Frog!
> 
> A first of its kind all day Pet Frog Breeder Conference and Social Meeting will be held at the USA Frog breeding facility in the Summer/Fall of 2015. Tour of the facility and retail operations will be included. All meals and beverages for the attendees will be provided. Surprises, giveaways, secrets, tips, and behind the scenes looks will be part of the festivities. EVERYBODY will go away with a "free pick"–the details to be announced later...


From a business standpoint, if you are a commercial entity, a trip to this "conference" would probably be akin to committing suicide.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Oh boy! Now we don't have a genus and species, we have a *Genus / SAFE® Species*. For ex: Non-Injurious Dendrobates / Domesticated Auratus


Yes, and apparently these self proclaimed "scientists" don't understand the difference between Genus and Family, nor do they understand what makes up a species name:



designerfrogs.com website said:


> Frogs of the species Tinctorius include the largest varieties of the *Genus Dendrobatidae* (Dendrobates) some are almost 3" full grown. The Auratus and Leucomelas and others are mid-size frogs, while the Vittatus and Anthonyi are the smallest we offer.


PERFECT! Real scientists ... right 

Hint for Mr. Phenotype ---------> specific epithet

Ok Ricky, go ahead and correct it now. _The hobby_ has fixed your errors once again.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> From a business standpoint, if you are a commercial entity, a trip to this "conference" would probably be akin to committing suicide.


Who would go? They smear everyone who isn't them.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Who would go? They smear everyone who isn't them.


Excellent point!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Who would go? They smear everyone who isn't them.


I wonder if they'd have the testicular fortitude to invite someone from The Hobby to debate them. I think I mentioned it before?

Bill Nye vs Ken Ham anyone?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> MANY people have done their own tests and cofirmed what we knew, our short cycle cultures are fresher and have better yields. Our media OUTperfoms Repashy, and all others that use what we call "the skeleton powder" (methylparaben or "Meth"). We do not use Meth in our FLYDOH media!


So apparently MANY people tested their media, yeah right.  Out performs repashy? Sure it does Rick. How so? PROVE IT! More flies, better nutritional value? I defy you to post independent test results to verify your fallacious claims. I suppose you expect the casual uninformed newbie will believe you.

More false and unsubstantiated claims.

Apparently they're all Companion™ frogs now....., is there anything this man won't slap a trademark on?

BTW, Rick, if you need any help figuring out how to rotate images, help is just a google search away.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If you've ever talked to him on the phone, its painfully obvious the man is completely bonkers. He wont stop because he just keeps going in circles. The frogs aren't the only thing that need to be tested over there.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Mods, I'm not trying to start a big personal flame war, but letting people know there is legitimately some loose screws and that's why none of this has sunk into his head over the last, almost year now? Dudes sanity and common sense is in a completely different realm.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> If you've ever talked to him on the phone, its painfully obvious the man is completely bonkers. He wont stop because he just keeps going in circles. The frogs aren't the only thing that need to be tested over there.


Anything new to report? It is painfully obvious he knows nothing about how to do business in this hobby. I mean seriously, if everyone else sucks so bad, how come I've never seen a thread like this for Joshs or Understory? 

Also, @ZookeeperDoug Not only are their frogs CompanionTM frogs, they also claim that they have DOMESTICATED them.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> So apparently MANY people tested their media, yeah right.  Out performs repashy? Sure it does Rick. How so? PROVE IT! More flies, better nutritional value? I defy you to post independent test results to verify your fallacious claims. I suppose you expect the casual uninformed newbie will believe you.
> 
> More false and unsubstantiated claims.
> 
> Apparently they're all Companion™ frogs now....., *is there anything this man won't slap a trademark on?*
> 
> BTW, Rick, if you need any help figuring out how to rotate images, help is just a google search away.



I feel like we are dealing with the kind of guy who would trademark an interestingly shaped bowel movement he has after breakfast.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You've spoken with him too right? Did he just get really pouty and try to talk over you and louder than you like when little kids argue? He did that crap to me and then went into aggressively immature mode saying things like "well I was going to answer your question but now I'm not...blah blah blah." This was after I listened to his "our frogs are superior lecture" and I asked how and that's when he went all little kid on me. He gave a nervous chuckle and then threw any type of professionalism out the window. I honestly felt like I was talking to a 7 year old with a deeper voice. I actually did hear him say that they do not test their frogs for anything though. Anyways, I just wanted to share that there seriously is something wrong. We cannot change Rick, but at least we can change his website. That's proof he does hold some sort of respect to the hobby. How many corrections have been made to his site thanks to all of you?

Edit: His sales pitch reminds me of drug dealers. They have to claim their stuff is the best around and no one else can match what they have. Im not saying Rick is an actual crack head, just that he runs a business like one would.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They don't take returns anymore today. USA Frog, COMPANION™ Frogs - Return Policy


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Pictures can be used to identify individuals over the short term (See Courtois, Elodie A., et al. "Population estimates of Dendrobates tinctorius (Anura: Dendrobatidae) at three sites in French Guiana and first record of chytrid infection." Phyllomedusa: Journal of Herpetology 11.1 (2012).) but it requires pictures of dorsal, ventral and lateral pictures to accurately ensure the identity of an individual animal. 

With respect to recent metamorphs and juveniles, the pattern may not be stable over time as many thing can impact the final patterns such as hormonal impact on distribution and size of melanopores. As a final issue, with the exception of blue colors, other colors are subject to changes over time due to dietary influence or lack thereof. As a result, long-term identification of animals may not be possible through the use of pictures (or pattern described through only one angle of the animal). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Pictures can be used to identify individuals over the short term (See Courtois, Elodie A., et al. "Population estimates of Dendrobates tinctorius (Anura: Dendrobatidae) at three sites in French Guiana and first record of chytrid infection." Phyllomedusa: Journal of Herpetology 11.1 (2012).) but it requires pictures of dorsal, ventral and lateral pictures to accurately ensure the identity of an individual animal.
> 
> With respect to recent metamorphs and juveniles, the pattern may not be stable over time as many thing can impact the final patterns such as hormonal impact on distribution and size of melanopores. As a final issue, with the exception of blue colors, other colors are subject to changes over time due to dietary influence or lack thereof. As a result, long-term identification of animals may not be possible through the use of pictures (or pattern described through only one angle of the animal).
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I was going to say exactly this, but I really am tired of helping them out. Now that the cat is out of the bag though, What Ed is saying is absolutely true. Frog patterns do change over time, and in my experience, most significantly over the period of time involved in USAFrogs absurd pair guarantee.

Specifically, with Auratus over 5 years, we morphed out quite a few froglets at the zoo. We used photographs for ID as is typical with all our Dendrobatids and many other amphibians . We kept accurate weight and health records for each individual amphibian, talk about a headache. At 6 months OOW, Each individual was assigned an ISIS number and it was tied to their photographs, both dorsal and ventral, however; frogs had to be frequently photographed because their patterns did change over time. We found that from 6months to 2 years, it was nessesary to retake photos every 3 months to maintain accuracy, after that, about once a year. On top of that, we did it yearly. Even some of out 8-10 year old Azureus had subtle changes in patterns over a year.

At one point I was photographing a specific individual Auratus froglet each week over two years for a project I was working on but I lost access to those pictures when I retired. 

Of course if Dillion and Rick had more than 2-3 years of experience they would know this and wouldn't make such ignorant suggestions and claims.

So you see Rick, your notion that you'll be able to visually identify any animals you sold a person based on pictures you've kept is dubious at best. I did have a good laugh when I read it, though now that Ed has let the cat out of the bag, you should probably go fix your in really stupid mistake. You can thank us once again for correcting your BS.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I was going to say exactly this, but I really am tired of helping them out. Now that the cat is out of the bag though, What Ed is saying is absolutely true. Frog patterns do change over time, and in my experience, most significantly over the period of time involved in USAFrogs absurd pair guarantee.
> 
> Specifically, with Auratus over 5 years, we morphed out quite a few froglets at the zoo. We used photographs for ID as is typical with all our Dendrobatids and many other amphibians . We kept accurate weight and health records for each individual amphibian, talk about a headache. At 6 months OOW, Each individual was assigned an ISIS number and it was tied to their photographs, both dorsal and ventral, however; frogs had to be frequently photographed because their patterns did change over time. We found that from 6months to 2 years, it was nessesary to retake photos every 3 months to maintain accuracy, after that, about once a year. On top of that, we did it yearly. Even some of out 8-10 year old Azureus had subtle changes in patterns over a year.
> 
> At one point I was photographing a specific individual Auratus froglet each week over two years for a project I was working on but I lost access to those pictures when I retired.
> 
> Of course if Dillion and Rick had more than 2-3 years of experience they would know this and wouldn't make such ignorant suggestions and claims.
> 
> So you see Rick, your notion that you'll be able to visually identify any animals you sold a person based on pictures you've kept is dubious at best. I did have a good laugh when I read it, though now that Ed has let the cat out of the bag, you should probably go fix your in really stupid mistake. You can thank us once again for correcting your BS.



Also, in example, Understory's site description of superblue auratus states "
Some animals are decidedly green rather than blue, but nearly all will develop a stunning bronze on the dorsum and limbs, *which only intensifies with age*."

Yet another example of the potential for color change


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

DartFrogWarehouse  (WHOLESALE)


Aww, look at little Ricky trying to be cute!


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

For customers that have never owned frogs before, we will need to: 1.) speak with you persoanlly by phone before we ship the frogs, and 2.) receive a digital photo of your tank/enclosure setup. The number one cause of problems for any frog owner is a lack of leaf litter. There needs at least a couple inches of leaves at least. *Please do scrimp on the leaves*. 


Some typo there.


Frog COUPLES and our 18 Guarantee:
We photograph and catalog all of the frogs we sell for posterity and proof of conformation. We are so confident in our quality, and considering the resources allocated to grow this business and our plan to be around a long time, if you buy a COUPLE and upgrade to the BREEDER BLOODLINE option, if your frogs fail to produce a "good egg" (i.e., a tadpole in the water determines a "good egg") for you before the end of a full eighteen (18) months of age, simply photograph them and contact us. After we verify frog identity and compare condition with our own archived photo set, we will swap the pair for you with a proven tadpole producing pair of the same variety! All you have to do is send them back to us, and we will send you the proven pair. You pay the freight to us and we pay the freight to you! No refunds, and the guarantee is void if the frog(s) is/are not well cared for–we reserve the right to make the determination, because we care for so many, but hey, these are breeders and priced as such. We believe you will do a great job with them!. ALL of our repeat customers will receive special consideration. (This guarantee is not transferable and only available to the original, non-commercial, purchaser having the upgrade guarantee code we issue them.) PERFECT! 

GUARANTEED MATES
First we offered Mated Pairs, now we offer Guaranteed Mates! That's right, guaranteed to produce a tadpole within 4 months of purchase! (We reserve the right to send you a tadpole producing Male/Female pair in lieu of this guarantee–very cool!) Here is how it works. We photograph and catalog all of the frogs we sell for posterity and proof of conformation. We are so confident in our quality, and considering the resources allocated to grow this business and our plan to be around a long time, if you buy a GUARANTEED MATE set of two (2) frogs (i.e., a guaranteed pair), if your frogs fail to produce a "good egg" (i.e., a tadpole in the water determines a "good egg") for you before the end of fiour (4) months from the date you received them plus 2 days, simply photograph them and contact us. After we verify frog identity and compare condition with our own archived photo set, we will swap the pair for you with a proven tadpole producing pair of the same variety! All you have to do is send them back to us, and we will send you the proven pair. You pay the freight to us and we pay the freight to you! No refunds, and the guarantee is void if the frog(s) is/are not well cared for–we reserve the right to make the determination, because we care for so many, but hey, these are breeders and priced as such. We believe you will do a great job with them! ALL of our repeat customers will receive special consideration. (This guarantee is not transferable and only available to the original, non-commercial, purchaser having the upgrade guarantee code we issue them.) PERFECT! 



Is it just me or are those the exact same as one another?


----------



## CAPTAIN RON

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow! a little bit over the top! and insane!


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



CAPTAIN RON said:


> Wow! a little bit over the top! and insane!


*"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."*

Mr. Phenotype keeps doing the same things over and over again. He just slaps a different trademark on it!

There are also some indications that we may soon see the return of his mutt mixed morphed frankenfrogs ... more insanity!


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I was going to say exactly this, but I really am tired of helping them out. Now that the cat is out of the bag though, What Ed is saying is absolutely true. Frog patterns do change over time, and in my experience, most significantly over the period of time involved in USAFrogs absurd pair guarantee.


Hey Doug,

My intention wasn't to help them out. It was to point out to people that photographing the frogs isn't as ideal a mechanism for individual identification over time as it seems. 
Sometimes we have to look at the bigger "picture". 

When Kevin Wright was the curator at Philly we had a colony of red eyes that he wanted to track individually with their own ISIS numbers using the white pattern on the sides of the frogs. Sadly within a year or two, you couldn't link one pattern back to specific frog (don't get me started on trying to individually track individual Typhlonectes natans....). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Hey Doug,
> 
> My intention wasn't to help them out. It was to point out to people that photographing the frogs isn't as ideal a mechanism for individual identification over time as it seems.
> Sometimes we have to look at the bigger "picture".
> 
> When Kevin Wright was the curator at Philly we had a colony of red eyes that he wanted to track individually with their own ISIS numbers using the white pattern on the sides of the frogs. Sadly within a year or two, you couldn't link one pattern back to specific frog (don't get me started on trying to individually track individual Typhlonectes natans....).
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I know you weren't, but inevitably that seems to be what happens with them. We correct their mistakes and stupid ideas and they change them based on our corrections.


----------



## Jeremy M

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I know you weren't, but inevitably that seems to be what happens with them. We correct their mistakes and stupid ideas and they change them based on our corrections.


Then I guess it's good for our cause that they don't actually improve what they've said, only change it to a different but equally outlandish and inaccurate idea. Ignorance knows no bounds.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

THE COOLEST PETS IN THE WORLD!™

Now trademarked, like everything on that damn site.


Why can't we have an emoticon for jumping off a cliff?


----------



## frogfreak

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Why can't we have an emoticon for jumping off a cliff?


How's this?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> After the above conditions are met, all you have to do is send them back to us, and we will send you the proven pair. You pay the freight to us and we pay the freight to you! No refunds, and this warranty is void if the frog(s) is/are not well cared for–we reserve the right to make the determination, because we care for so many. We believe you will do a great job with them, but you may not use methylparaben ("Meth") based media to raise your feeder flies. Meth based media voids this warranty. Of course, ALL of our repeat customers will receive special consideration, but the "no-meth" restriction cannot be waived. (This warranty is not transferable. It is only available to the original, non-commercial, purchaser and having the upgrade warranty code we issue them if applicable.) (We always reserve the right to send you a tadpole producing Male/Female pair in lieu of this guarantee–very cool!)


/facepalm

As if they'd have any way of knowing if the Client used methyparaben in their media or not. I'm sure Rick will amend this nonsense to include something to the affect, of "and yes we will know".


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USAFrog website said:


> After the above conditions are met, a*ll you have to do is send them back to us*, and we will send you the proven pair.


Hmm, so much for not having any outside frogs enter their "disease free" facility. Ricky might want to start testing those froggies of his ...


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> /facepalm
> 
> As if they'd have any way of knowing if the Client used methyparaben in their media or not. I'm sure Rick will amend this nonsense to include something to the affect, of "and yes we will know".


I can just picture a little froggie border patrol trying to catch those frogs that may be trying to smuggle "Meth" into their facility. Oh Ricky, so silly!


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I know you weren't, but inevitably that seems to be what happens with them. We correct their mistakes and stupid ideas and they change them based on our corrections.


And consider the wider picture. Would you rather have a website with a larger amount of inaccurate or incorrect information providing information to those looking for information or one that is "more" correct? 

I have to admit that while I don't agree with and consider the marketing attempts to be an issue, the hobby has yet to acknowledge that they enabled this to be a problem. As I've pointed out more than once now, the hobby in the last decade had the opportunity to take advantage of attempts to get the community to track the lineages of their frogs through two seperate databases. If the hobby had utilized either or both of the programs, the concerns about hybrids etc from this company would be pretty much non-existent as the information as to where the frogs came from could be determined.... instead there are now two huge threads attempting to correct the errors on a website whose practices may threaten the hobby with hybrids between localities and/or between species. 

I should also note that the with the exception of the whole trademarking with the rebranding attempts, the hobby does their own version of rebranding by continually using and creating slang "references" to the frogs including names that have only a passing interaction with the real descriptors of the frogs. For example, we have "bennies" for Ranitomeya benedicta. We can see that this "slang" isn't that much of a short hand nor does it really follow the spelling the correct epithet. This occurs in more than one population/species of the frogs and is spreading to other things like isopods "pod" and fruit flies "melo" for melanogaster..... is the inability to get the letter right any more ridiculous than naming something "sunshine"..... 

*So to some extent, the hobby made a bed that they have to own up to making and should consider whether or not the trade marked names are any more ridiculous than the ones that many in the hobby are not only making up but are continuing to use....* 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Agreed Ed.
I`m as guilty as the next person for doing this, my excuse is being lazy.

These people`s excuse is knowingly trying to deceive new people to the hobby to sell their 
Jalapeno, Denim Blue Jean, Sausage and Peppers frogs


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> ir
> Jalapeno, Denim Blue Jean, Sausage and Peppers frogs


Not directly targeting you but you provide the continuity for some more points. 

But skyblue azureus, fine spot azureus, chocolate leucomelas are all okay? With the exception of the trademarked name crap, there are some examples of this sort of thing going on in the hobby. Ignoring the fact that it occurs here, does imply its okay when "we" do it, but not when they do it. 

This is before we consider the impact of people line breeding and choosing the best looking frogs to keep and produce the next generation of their frogs (in effect direct selection as well as often line bred). 

Donn and some of the others are benefiting the hobby by keeping the pressure up on the bad information and misinformation but people need to realize that there is a big problem and ignoring the man behind the curtain isn't helping anyone. 

Some ranting comments 

Ed


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The site is now online. The message says something along the lines of them optimizing their shopping experience and improving the site.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The domain name is now usafrog.com


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



DesignerFrogs.com said:


> *Why have you changed names in the past?* Short answer: We change names as the need arises, but don't plant to do it again, and dig in from here going forward along with some legal wins as needed.


and...........



InvertaHerp said:


> The domain name is now usafrog.com



What if it's all just one huge elaborate practical joke?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It might as well be


----------



## TapDart91

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That place is a joke. Before being properly informed about their crooked ways. I purchased frogs from there NOT Knowing any better at the time. Thay must have all their animals in a dark room because before and even after I isolated the frogs to insure they would not reproduce and further muddy the gene pool. The are never out all the do is hide. And if you do see one out by the time you teach the tank they are gone. On the other hand the frogs i purchased from respected dealers are always. In view and extreamly pleasant to watch for hours. The quality of your frogs really does make a difference and after being properly informed through forum members I am extreamly unhappy with Desingerfrogs , frogs. Now i spend my time informing people so they do not make the same mistakes I did. Funniest thing is after learning about them i sent the company a bit of an angry Email. All the sudden they stary lieing even more and go about changing their sight to advirtising even more false information. Its disgusting. Never again will I make that mistake and forever will inform. People not to order from them or anyone els for that matter until they know the back story.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TapDart91 said:


> That place is a joke. Before being properly informed about their crooked ways. I purchased frogs from there NOT Knowing any better at the time. Thay must have all their animals in a dark room because before and even after I isolated the frogs to insure they would not reproduce and further muddy the gene pool. The are never out all the do is hide. And if you do see one out by the time you teach the tank they are gone. On the other hand the frogs i purchased from respected dealers are always. In view and extreamly pleasant to watch for hours.


Lets not get ahead of ourselves here... I'm the last person to defend them but there could be a lot of explanations for that activity/behavior. First, if I'm following some of your other posts correctly you just got the new frogs this past weekend, right? Most frogs will go through a bit of a "freak out" period (not the official terminology, obviously) when you first get them and they will be all over the place looking for their hiding spots. After that, they usually settle in and become a little more reclusive while they continue to adjust. It could just be that you have frogs in these different stages at the moment. 

Also, it could depend on how the terrariums are laid out. I would post another thread in the Beginners subforum about your general concern of the frogs hiding (don't mention any of the stuff from this thread) and post some pictures/information about the setup. From there we can see if there are other issues at fault first before we go making any unfounded claims about issues with their frogs.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TapDart91 said:


> That place is a joke. Before being properly informed about their crooked ways. I purchased frogs from there NOT Knowing any better at the time. Thay must have all their animals in a dark room because before and even after I isolated the frogs to insure they would not reproduce and further muddy the gene pool. The are never out all the do is hide. And if you do see one out by the time you teach the tank they are gone. On the other hand the frogs i purchased from respected dealers are always. In view and extreamly pleasant to watch for hours. The quality of your frogs really does make a difference and after being properly informed through forum members I am extreamly unhappy with Desingerfrogs , frogs. Now i spend my time informing people so they do not make the same mistakes I did. Funniest thing is after learning about them i sent the company a bit of an angry Email. All the sudden they stary lieing even more and go about changing their sight to advirtising even more false information. Its disgusting. Never again will I make that mistake and forever will inform. People not to order from them or anyone els for that matter until they know the back story.


As Tom said, there are many other factors involving their hiding, but it is good to see that you've educated yourself on these guys! Enjoy your frogs


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TapDart91 said:


> That place is a joke. Before being properly informed about their crooked ways. I purchased frogs from there NOT Knowing any better at the time. Thay must have all their animals in a dark room because before and even after I isolated the frogs to insure they would not reproduce and further muddy the gene pool. The are never out all the do is hide. And if you do see one out by the time you teach the tank they are gone. On the other hand the frogs i purchased from respected dealers are always. In view and extreamly pleasant to watch for hours. The quality of your frogs really does make a difference and after being properly informed through forum members I am extreamly unhappy with Desingerfrogs , frogs. Now i spend my time informing people so they do not make the same mistakes I did. Funniest thing is after learning about them i sent the company a bit of an angry Email. All the sudden they stary lieing even more and go about changing their sight to advirtising even more false information. Its disgusting. Never again will I make that mistake and forever will inform. People not to order from them or anyone els for that matter until they know the back story.


I was wondering why they took down the review that was likely from you.vi would love to see what they said to you. Probably can't or won't be allowed to be posted here but you can PM me or email me. 

I agree with Tom though, there could be many reasons why your frogs are acting this way, in fact it is normal and expected after they're new.

What is amazing though, is that USA frogs claims these things won't happen because their frogs are superior to ours. I don't think this really proves any defect in their frogs other than to show that they're not as special and unique as Rick would have us believe.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I was wondering why they took down the review that was likely from you.vi would love to see what they said to you. Probably can't or won't be allowed to be posted here but you can PM me or email me.
> 
> I agree with Tom though, there could be many reasons why your frogs are acting this way, in fact it is normal and expected after they're new.
> 
> What is amazing though, is that USA frogs claims these things won't happen because their frogs are superior to ours. I don't think this really proves any defect in their frogs other than to show that they're not as special and unique as Rick would have us believe.


So much for their guarantees...anyone have screenshots? I suspect they they'll be taken down soon.


----------



## TapDart91

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

My other frogs i got from nabors and seem way for active and bold. The ones from DF seem very reclusive. I was more aggravated with the issues of getting frogs from them that may have had muddied genetics. I relocated the turrarium containing Their frogs to my living room because they where in a spare room that nobody go,s into for the first few weeks to minimize stress. But now i want people to be able to enjoy seeing them on the rare occasions that they are out feeding. Or loving the extra hand misting. Witch seems to bring them out a little. But i have also humidifiers in the tank and a gauge so the levels stay in good range. For some reason they just seem shyer


----------



## TapDart91

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That makes since as well maybe in the next 6 months they will become less shy either way i love dart frogs in general i am just very unpleased with the purity in witch the frogs i got from them genetics may or brobably not


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

More rantings from the asylum:

USAfrog Blog



USAFrog website said:


> USAFrog Blog
> We support THE Pet Frog Hobby and Hobbyists worldwide!
> Dedicated to bringing the fun to frogs, with the foundation all of our frogs are fully domesticated as pets, this category is intended for news & events and other notable stuff relating to the PET FROG HOBBY–not the Collector Frog Hobby. There is an important, and basic difference.
> 
> – ALL, each and every one, of our frogs is bred, born, and raised HERE, INSIDE the USA, where safety and health rules. The collector hobby impors frogs, warns of associated diseases and generally has a much hihgher level of risk. In additojn, the collector hobby inbreeds when there is a lack of "new" breeding stock. Their inbreeding kills, stunts and makes runts of the entire line often to the point of infertility.
> 
> – US Dart Frog has more phentotype data for captive bred dart frogs than anyone in the world, and we breed for quality animals. We monitor al of our forgs and their offpsing. We watch for the genetic variatin and note the breeding "fan angle" (our term) of the offspring varaiability. With statistical analysis the true highs and lows indicate the most dominat traits of that particular pairing. We use tis data to make sure the bloodlines are most diverse and offspring are the most healthy.
> 
> – The "in house" inventory we have tops 6,500 frogs, and we aren't stopping there, NOBODY else can say that! With that sample size, we have a lot of very strong, certainly dominant trait filled NATURAL variations.
> 
> – US Dart Frog is the sole and exclusive frog supplier of USA Frog and the SINGLE MOST ADVANCED AND INNOVATIVE breeder of Dendrobates on the planet!
> 
> Of course, we have collector hobby frogs, line bred frogs (those bred for certain appearance traits), and mixed race frogs–with the later being MOST genetically superior and we have the data to prove. As we isoltae truly dominant triats and a line of frogs, that genetic material is preserved forever and not muddied.
> 
> A note about collecting:
> 
> Any collector hobby values provenance and ancestral origin as much as quality and condition of the collected specimen whatever it is. The collector frog hobby espouses, albeit not universally, the concept of "outbreeding", but a closer look is needed. Outbreeding (mixing of bloodlines) is good. However, inconsistent with outbreeding is the collector frog hobby: 1.) desire to keep the line of a certain locality intact even if it means inbreeding, or importing illegal, potentially diseased wild caught frogs smuggled into the country; and 2.) the collector frog hobby refutes the official scientific taxonomic record and classification of species by the experts who define what outbreeding actually should be. For example, inbreeding to preserve a certain event of frog importation from the wild harms the offspring and weakens genetics for the entire line long term. This is precisely why many of the collector hobby frogs are churned out poor qualtiy replicas and sold as a distant relative. Still, to "presrve" the import strain (translated "to squeeze every dollar from it"), the collector hobby formulates its own rules and regulations to keep the status quo, prevent non-conformance, govern with a heaviness of seniority, and all this places pet ownership last!
> 
> From the beginning we chose a different route. WE CHAMPION THE PET STATUS AND OWNERSHIP OF THESE FROGS!
> We prefer, sustainable, captive breeding of the best parent stock and MANY of them to produce the best quality animal offspring! Our frogs are bigger!
> 
> The Pet Frog Hobby we support enjoys top quality genetics and animals, and diversity as it celebrates the animal appearance and health, etc., over the fact the frog ancestors lived near this creek or that creek. We like our pet frog approach better, and much more so when you consider the collector hobby's illegal importation of some wild caught (possibly diseased) frogs.


----------



## aspidites73

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Although I do NOT recommend purchasing from usdartfrog, if anyone who has purchased from them could PM me. I have a simple question to ask regarding the shipping of your purchase. I will not be judgemental in ANY way, nor will I try to impose my personal opinions. In fact, my response to your PM will contain 1 sentence in the form of a question. Of course, you have the right to not answer and, there will be no follow up questions or PM, nor will your name be shared by me.


----------



## TapDart91

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



aspidites73 said:


> Although I do NOT recommend purchasing from usdartfrog, if anyone who has purchased from them could PM me. I have a simple question to ask regarding the shipping of your purchase. I will not be judgemental in ANY way, nor will I try to impose my personal opinions. In fact, my response to your PM will contain 1 sentence in the form of a question. Of course, you have the right to not answer and, there will be no follow up questions or PM, nor will your name be shared by me.


Saddly. Before. I got informed and was new to the hobby. I purchased from DF


----------



## TapDart91

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They are all isolated now


----------



## TapDart91

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow i feel like they changed their websight text after i sent them an email complaining about inferior genetics and about how THEY crossbred. The man replied saying he was NOT a part of the hobby because people in the "hobby" threatened his life. Either way this go's against his own statments. I got a new phone since then but i will try finding a way to post the emails from USA frog if i can


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> More rantings from the asylum:
> 
> USAfrog Blog


I can't believe this guy wrote a book.

I know his argument, and I still can't quite follow what he is saying. I'm not sure of Rick's condition, but if you ever see _me_ post something that reads like this did, you know I'm drunk. 

Linebreeding is good, inbreeding is bad, crossbreeding is best?...Wow. Now that I think about it, maybe I should erase that nonsense before Rick trademarks it and puts it on a banner.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It is very apparent that Rick Waescher lives in Rickyland. In Rickyland everything is trademarked, you say anything you want to get unsuspecting people to listen to and believe you. Moral ethics do not exist, if you tell enough lies then they must be true. I will not drag myself to his level anymore. The guy obviously has psychological problems. Honestly, think about it Rick has been a corporate lawyer...they are just paid liars. He just took it to a whole new level. Honestly, don't new unsuspecting customers wonder why his business name changes once a month? Why his website literature changes hourly. I just want him to know how bad of a name he is giving himself and his family. I feel bad for his kids though, I really honestly do. Its apparent they have no say in that business.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Do yourself a big favor, don`t even go to that web site anymore.
I`ll check in to this thread once in awhile but that's it for me.
I swear he writes half of that nonsense just for spite. I don`t even give him the satisfaction of looking there anymore.

Little by little people are buying their frogs and coming here for REAL advice and then getting the big picture. That's a good thing.
He`s going to say,write and do anything he wants and deep down he knows he`s wrong and we`re right...and when the big day come`s he`ll have to answer for it...not us.


----------



## aspidites73

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Each time one of us visits the site, the site's search rank increases. Each time one of us backlinks to a page on their site, their search rank increases. As their search rank increases, our criticism is associated less and less with his site, assuming our search index rank not increase equally. I submit we do not include the .com when mentioning his site as that constitutes a back link, we do not provide a link to any page of the site, and we continue to spread the word as has been done.


----------



## easternversant

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Little by little people are buying their frogs and coming here for REAL advice and then getting the big picture. That's a good thing.


Except if you look at the other forums, a lot of people are very pleased with their cheap frogs...


----------



## Jeremy M

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USAFrog website said:


> We watch for the genetic variatin and note the breeding "fan angle" (our term) of the offspring varaiability.


Wow, Ricky, you're really slacking. You actually didn't copyright one of the bogus terms that you made up. I applaud you for your generosity of allowing other people to use it... not that they ever would, of course.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



easternversant said:


> Except if you look at the other forums, a lot of people are very pleased with their cheap frogs...


There`s only so much that can be done.

When that finally sunk in my life got a whole lot better.
Honestly, I really don`t care what the heck they do anymore.

Have you seen one major vendor/sponsor other than Dane posting here?
No. Why? Because they probably don`t want to get involved or be bothered with this 
madness.
I wasted enough time and energy with these people and I`m not giving them anymore of either.

Try it...you`ll thank me

EDIT~ nothing personal Dane


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



easternversant said:


> Except if you look at the other forums, a lot of people are very pleased with their cheap frogs...


Where? Ten letters


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> We support THE Pet Frog Hobby and Hobbyists worldwide!
> We are dedicated to bringing you the fun of these gorgeous frogs! This category is intended for news & events and other notable stuff relating to the PET FROG HOBBY.
> 
> 21 July 2014
> We operate as part of the Pet Frog Hobby.
> (There is an important and basic difference between the Pet Frog Hobby and the Collector Frog Hobby.)
> 
> Everyone know any collector of anything deemed to have a value considers provenance (i.e., the history of the item) and ancestral origin as much as, and often more than, quality and condition of the collected item, whatever it is. The Collector Frog Hobby is no different. The Collector Frog Hobby desire and practice to keep, for example, a frog line harvested from the wild at a certain locality (or year of introduction), intact for decades even if it means extensive inbreeding and/or importation of illegal, potentially diseased, wild caught frogs smuggled into the country is bad. Also, the Collector Frog Hobby refuses to accept the official scientific taxonomic record and classification of species by the experts. (Fact: There are NO subspecies of these frogs. They are "polymorphic" and interbreed in the wild as per the world reknowned experts.)
> 
> The Pet Frog Hobby is at odds with the Collector Frog Hobby for the reasons mentioned below, not the least of which is their ghoulish practice of euthanizing perfectly healthy frogs in order to establish "master races"–yes, seriously! (Discussed more below) They do so under an absurd notion of purity, but the error is proven out when many of their "master races" have shrunk in stature and don't breed normally.
> 
> The Pet Frog enthusiast Hobby loves these frogs, breeds them for quality, hardiness, and the best active pets, and disagrees with anyone who wantonly kills them as a self-appointed god of this world.
> 
> – ALL of the frogs we offer you are fully domesticated as pets, each and every one. They are all bred from superb bloodlines, born and raised HERE, INSIDE the USA, where safety and health rules. We do not possess, or sell, poison dart frogs or any kind of poison frog. Conversely, the Collector Frog Hobby imports frogs, openly and repeatedly warns of frog population destroying diseases, and generally admits a high level of risk of ownership, while presenting itself perfectly ripe for regulation under the Federal Lacey Act Amendment HR 996. Their own deceptions and lawlessness will be their demise, so beware.
> 
> – US Dart Frog has more frog phentotype (appearance) data for captive bred dart frogs than anyone in the world, and we breed for quality animals. We monitor all of our frogs and their offspring. We watch for the natural genetic variation and note the breeding "fan angle" (our term) of the offspring variability. With statistical analysis, some formal and some informal, the most dominant traits of a particular pairing are the true statistical "highs" and "lows". This defines what rarity really means, but eh Collector Frog Hobby would kill the variation from the median. We, however, always use this data to make sure the bloodlines of our frogs are the most diverse, and offspring ALWAYS the most healthy through optimum genetics. Conversely, the Collector Frog Hobby intentionally and repeatedly inbreeds their revered lines when there is a lack of "new" breeding stock. Their inbreeding ALWAYS stunts and makes runts of the entire line often to the point of infertility over time.
> 
> For example, in an attempt to "preserve" (i.e., drag on into future generations) the original status of a long ago frog importation from the wild, inbreeding knowingly harms the offspring and weakens genetics for the entire line long term, but the Collector Frog Hobby applauds this behavior, because they are paper owners, talk a good game, but don't really care about the animals. The Pet Frog Hobby decrys this irresponsible behavior! Moreover, the inbred Collector Frog Hobby animals make poor breeding stock at any time even if they are mixed with new blood. This is precisely why many of the Collector Hobby Frogs are churned out as poor quality replicas, small and undersized, but they are sold for a premium price disproportionate with quality of the animal itself, but that is the Collector Frog Hobby way!
> 
> Our PET FROGS are bigger! The Pet Frog Hobby overall enjoys top quality genetics, purity, and diversity in their animals, because Pet Dart Frogs are born and raised on love of their owners, not greed or ego. We raise our frogs as our pets before they become yours! YOUR Satisfaction Guaranteed!
> 
> – USA Frog is the sole and exclusive frog vendor for US Dart Frog–the SINGLE MOST ADVANCED AND INNOVATIVE breeder of Dendrobates on the planet! (Breeder Conference 2015) With our inventory size, our phenotype studies, and the largest captive bred sample size in the world, we have very strong, certainly dominant trait-filled NATURAL variations too. We love it! We breed adult frogs that are genetically combinative, so any natural anomaly is unique and fantastic to us. By contrast, the Collector Frog Hobby loves to intentionally kill completely healthy frogs because they lack the appearance they desire. They call it "euthanizing", but the only "relief" is the threat to the Collector Frog Hobby mission, i.e., their desire to promote a "master races" of frogs as mentioned above, and complete conformance of the owner by seeking to remove everything individual about owning these amazing PETS! Killing harmless and gorgeous pet frogs is wrong. The Collector Frog Hobby needs to stop killing and inbreeding, and stick with terminating their population destroying diseased animals they talk about so much and rightfully dread.
> 
> Every member of the Pet Frog Hobby feels the practice of the Collector Frog Hobby to euthanize (kill) completely healthy and beautiful pet frogs simply because they look different is heinous, devilish, appalling, and disgustingly sad! (Fact: Leaders of the Collector Frog Hobby have written articles on the proper way to kill perfectly healthy frogs!) Still, to "preserve" their import strain (translated "to squeeze every dollar from it" and "stay a lfolk egend"), the Collector Frog Hobby formulates its own rules and regulations to force their agenda, demand conformance to their ways through oppression, and governance of people, while all this places the frog last right next to pet ownership!
> 
> – ALL of the frogs we sell, or will sell, "breed true"! "Breeding true" means the offspring of same variety parents look like their parents, i.e., are of the same variety. Still, the Collector Frog Hobby might one day decide they need to be killed too, simply because they don't like they way they look (translated: Pet Frog Hobby frogs are better, so kill the competiton to advance an agenda.)
> 
> As we isolate truly dominant traits of frogs by our phenotype work, we believe superior genetics is better preserved forever for all varieties, and we plan to offer some of the MOST genetically superior frogs found anywhere, including the wild. We have the data (and animals) to prove it. Of course, we only sell the absolute best frogs from the best bloodlines, because that is all we have! We formed this company and build it on this solid foundation of quality. We cherish our customers greatly. They love the frogs, plain and simple! We also sell some limited run bred frogs having unique appearance traits. In addition, after a preliminary test market phase to verify demand and confirm our expectations, we will also sell new pure bred, true bred variants ONLY available from USA Frog
> 
> As you can tell, from the beginning we chose a different route, scourned & threatened with physical harm by the Collector Frog Hobby even today, we continue to our mission of truth and CHAMPION THE PET STATUS AND OWNERSHIP OF PET HOBBY FROGS! We prefer, sustainable, captive breeding of top quality parent stock to produce the best quality animal offspring. We all celebrate the animals–their appearance and health, vibrance and awesomeness, etc., over the fact a frog ancestor decades ago lived near this creek or that creek. We like our pet frog approach better, because it is rooted in love for the animals not human ego.
> 
> EACH AND EVERY FROG WE SELL IS GUARANTEED 100% HEALTHY, PERFECTLY HARMLESS, ALWAYS TOP QUALITY, AND OFFERED TO YOU UNDER OUR FEDERALLY REGISTERED SAFE BRAND!!


...... /facepalm

So

Much

Fail...

Tempted to break it down for him, but I really just want to preserve it so that after he recovers from his current ragegasm, and deletes all this, it will be preserved for posterity.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That blog post might be the single stupidest thing I have ever read in my life. Like, my brain seriously hurts.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hahaha! Where does the clown even pull this stuff out of?! I'm tempted to have my 11 year old call him up and talk about the frog hobby. That conversation would be priceless. Where do you even start to reply to all that trash...rick is such a joke. How can anyone take him serious anymore at this point? He has lost his marbles. Dammit Dillon and the rest of the frog dudes, if you actually have any say in "your business", please find a way to liquidate it all to start over and focus on a real future away from your insane manager. Use this experience as a perfect example of how to do everything wrong.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have my theories, but they're inappropriate to share here.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> Very cool and timely periodic news to come, including HR 996 reports from a legal perspective, and the eventual outlaw of the poison dart frog Collector Frog Hobby by their own statements and actions!


Oh noes, they're going to outlaw the Collector hobby! Because of our own statements and actions. Please do tell Rick, I'll get the popcorn.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Oh noes, they're going to outlaw the Collector hobby! Because of our own statements and actions. Please do tell Rick, I'll get the popcorn.


I love how he sees that as a) revenge on the "hobby", and b) in any way good for his business. 

Also "collector hobby" as opposed to just the hobby? He's trying to create some distinction so he can again claim to be part of the hobby community, just not the "collector hobby", the nefarious group of mastermind frog hobbyists that want frogs to be extinct in the wild. Rick, if you want to protect local populations, maybe you're business model shouldn't be based on a practice that puts pressure on wild populations...but I imagine you know that. Of course you're going to crusade against wild populations when _ you're helping create a demand for them as an alternative to your sleazy business._.

The conversations went like this, "Hey, look hobby! We've bred frogs that we think look just like wild populations and no one else can do it! Oh, you'd rather have site specific animals? Well ours are exactly the same because of phenotypes! Oh, you'd rather have the actual frog as close as it exists in nature as responsibly possible...hmmm. Well in that case, imports should be outlawed. Protect the frogs! When they are unavailable you will HAVE to buy from us." Then I imagine he laughed maniacally while he rung his hands, but I might be off on that part.

The truth is that the greatest positive impact that Rick could have on wild frog populations is to go out of business.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

oymygodohmygodohmygodohmygod.....



USfartdogs said:


> Still, in order to get their way, some collectors resort to and adopt a convenient "island theory". Never mind the simple fact the vast majority of the wild variants of these frogs live on a mainland, and any real island is never truly remote with species introduced locally very easily, there are NO real obstacles to keep them separate.


He thinks "island theory" refers only to LITERAL ISLANDS! That makes me laugh and feel so sad at the same time.

Then he goes on a "God" rant which I don't think I can post here because we've decided not to discuss religion on this board, but basically saying God gave us these frogs as a "lesser order" to do with as we please.

Then he goes on a self-righteous rant about how members of the "collector hobby" (not a thing) advocate killing frogs that vary in appearance from their parents, and that the heinous practice of killing healthy frogs for the sake of appearance needs to stop. 

I never do this, but...BWAAAHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

If this mornings "to do" list was 1. Say something dumb, 2. Hypocritically shoehorn religion into my agenda, and 3. Just flat-out, knowingly lie, then I would say Rick can sleep soundly tonight.


----------



## ZenMonkey

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> their desire to promote a "master races" of frogs as mentioned above


Whatever this guy's smoking, not only do I want some, but I'd like to start dealing in it. Ethical breeding = Dr. Mengele as conservationist? That is some GOOD STUFF.

I know this isn't a big deal but he really pushes my buttons with the "pet frog" thing. I never refer to my frogs as pets because I don't think of them as pets. Pets means "domesticated" to me, whatever the actual definition, because I don't hold with keeping wild animals like chimps as pets. The frogs we keep, even captive-bred, are still wild animals. They are not domesticated.* They have not adapted to the needs of humans; rather we work like crazy to make sure we are accommodating them as much as possible. I consider myself a "keeper" of my frogs because I feel more like a zookeeper than a pet owner.

Looking at these frogs as "pets" just tells me that there is no respect there for the beauty of what evolution hath wrought. I look at my vivarium as my best effort to create and enjoy a small piece of rainforest, inhabitants included, and it's a privilege to be able to do that. But heck, even responsible pet breeders take great care with their bloodlines and don't experiment just for the "fun" and profit of it.

*I have heard that some people have trained their darts to enjoy being held, but that still isn't domestication.


----------



## Judy S

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"PET" to me is just that: something you can pet...as in touch, handle...wonder whether those people would consider fish as "pets."


----------



## FishnFrogs

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They have an add up on king snake right now for bulk quantities of 2-3 month old froglets. I thought selling frogs in this age range went against their policy...but whatever.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FishnFrogs said:


> They have an add up on king snake right now for bulk quantities of 2-3 month old froglets. I thought selling frogs in this age range went against their policy...but whatever.


They've always done so, they just claim it is only to experienced hobbyists and dealers, but they'll extend the offer to anyone to make a buck.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> They've always done so, they just claim it is only to experienced hobbyists and dealers, but they'll extend the offer to anyone to make a buck.


You know, Kingsnake...where experienced frog hobbyists hang out.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> Our website name and URL have changed over the years and now finally corresponds with our company name. Still, each and every web address we used previously as a primary address for our store is still in use somewhere on this site and shall remain so going forward. For exampe, DartFrogWarehouse.com and DartFrogWholesale.com were the first web addresses we used, and now they link our customers directly to the wholesale section of the site. Designerfrogs.com directs the customer to our main page, but will direct our customers to the DESIGNER frogs category in the future. Similarly, SAFEdartfrogs.com currently directs the user to our main page, but will be linked to a sepcial breeder section. We did this for several reasons, but mainly to establish a wide foot print early. As the years to come pass, this strategy will prove invaluable from a diversification standpoint and the possibility of spinoffs.


Oh really? So which is it Rick. Just a couple of weeks ago all the names were because you (not so) cleverly did this to separate yourself from the initial blowback that up you claim you anticipated. The lies will always catch up to you, we will make sure of that.

And years? really? As if you're trying to imply that you've been at this for years....

Not surprisingly, it appears they're busy retooling yet again, removing the garbage blog, phenotype crap, etc etc. what a train wreck. If you need an example of how NOT to start an online business, here you go.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have not kept up with this since graduating college, getting married, getting a new job, and moving to NC.

But wow.

just…

wow.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Charlie Q said:


> I have not kept up with this since graduating college, getting married, getting a new job, and moving to NC.
> .


and all that`s more important than this?!?


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZenMonkey said:


> .
> 
> I know this isn't a big deal but he really pushes my buttons with the "pet frog" thing. I never refer to my frogs as pets because I don't think of them as pets. Pets means "domesticated" to me, whatever the actual definition, because I don't hold with keeping wild animals like chimps as pets. The frogs we keep, even captive-bred, are still wild animals. They are not domesticated.* They have not adapted to the needs of humans; rather we work like crazy to make sure we are accommodating them as much as possible. I consider myself a "keeper" of my frogs because I feel more like a zookeeper than a pet owner.


Just a point of clarification here. I understand the emotional component of this post all too well but we have to accept that pretty much everything kept in the hobby has undergone some level of genetic adaptation to captivity. The reason is that maladaption syndrome causes mortality in those species/populations that have issues with captivity. Now this doesn't mean that they have been fully domesticated but it does mean that they are traveling down the path to domestication. The only way to minimize this impact is to genetically manage the population so that the maximal genetic diversity from the originating population is retained. The hobby does not engage in maximizing the genetic diversity of the founding population so we have to accept that there has been some level of domestication. This doesn't mean that the frogs have become the equivalent of a cow but it could mean that they are approaching the level of other species that are domesticated that rely on people to sustain them in captivity such as some species of fish (no not guppies, or goldfish). 

Now this cannot and should not be taken to mean that the argument put forth by a certain website that population crosses are desirable for genetic diversity as that is an incorrect assumption based on the understanding about species and populations. 

Just keeping the record clear. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Judy S said:


> "PET" to me is just that: something you can pet...as in touch, handle...wonder whether those people would consider fish as "pets."


There are people who have koi that are trained to be petted and I think any attempt to make the argument that koi are not domesticated is going to have a hard time given the length of time koi have been kept in captivity. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Once my Master Race of frogs has enough weapons we shall rule the world.....or as read on their site

Ounce mie mister rates of forgs haz enuff muskits weins wil rull the flatlanders two

You would think after the hundreds of spelling errors they have put out in the 2+ years they have been in business they would think to spell check, however I am sure proof reading would only lead to more spelling errors.


----------



## a hill

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So, I've lurked here for many years, and actually followed the saga in somewhat real time. 

I think that, and I don't think this is a violation of the rules, if it is I apologize, he is likely suffering from bipolar or schizophrenia. 

This is classic manic behavior in bipolar and whatnot in schizophrenia. I know from a LOT of "fun" personal experiences. 

So, I'm more concerned overall, for the hobby, for him, for his family. If all the "accomplishments" were true, they were likely before he was this way. I mean, thats obvious and all, but things to consider.

Maybe, one day, he will review the very well documented saga here and realize how crazy it was. It is a good read and a great read to understand the philosophy of the hobby's core members. So I definitely have always enjoyed it as an invisible participant...

-Andrew


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



a hill said:


> Maybe, one day, he will review the very well documented saga here and realize how crazy it was.


Never happen, his ego won`t allow it.
In his eye`s we`re the one`s dishing out lies and bad information.
He changes that website once a week to suit his agenda and to correct the BS...only after people like Doug, Donn, Jeremy, Ed, Invertaherp, Josh and the mods fix his f-ups that he end`s up taking credit for.
These people would not hesitate one second to answer a question from someone new that they have already heard 100 times over.
I haven`t even met half of these people in person and I would trust them with ANYTHING.

Sorry Andrew, in no way is this aimed at you.
Nice to hear from you also.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



a hill said:


> ...he is likely suffering from bipolar or schizophrenia.
> 
> This is classic manic behavior in bipolar and whatnot in schizophrenia. I know from a LOT of "fun" personal experiences.


Of course it would be absolutely impossible to say and is wildly speculative, but I wouldn't be surprised. I've had a LOT of that same type of "fun" experience myself in a former life, and the confidence and disconnection with reality that accompanies a manic swing sure has a signature that you learn to recognize. That would also explain the impressive resume'. I'd never really considered it, but now that you mention it I see a lot of familiar red flags. 

Bummer.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Funny, I see him as the south end of a north bound mule


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



easternversant said:


> Except if you look at the other forums, a lot of people are very pleased with their cheap frogs...


I'd like to know where as well, if you please.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That's what I was referring to when i said he's on a completely different level


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Do I read this right that of 1/21/14 Rick no longer has the trademark on "US Dart Frog"?

"ABANDONED-FAILURE TO RESPOND OR LATE RESPONSE?"

US DART FROG - Reviews & Brand Information - Rick Wascher Waukesha, WI - Serial Number: 85875500

Hmmmm. If so, I think Enlightened Rogue should snatch it. That would make me giggle.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Don`t tempt me Jeremy


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yep for the low price of 159 you can mess with the only thing Rick cares about. Trademarks


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Don`t tempt me Jeremy


Start a Kickstarter campaign. I'm good for $20. ;P


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It takes 7 days to verify yourself for Kickstart. By that time he will have read all of this and gone and bought it himself.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well then I cost him $160 and that feels good too.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Are we considering this? I have an unused Kickstarter account....


Also, does anyone think that their $150 minimum order is rather steep, especially considering how cheap they sell their frogs?


----------



## a hill

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Sorry Andrew, in no way is this aimed at you.
> Nice to hear from you also.


Oh, I completely understand.

What I'm saying is, if he breaks away from the state he is in now, he'd likely review what he did previously and be quite stunned... 



Boondoggle said:


> I'd never really considered it, but now that you mention it I see a lot of familiar red flags.
> 
> Bummer.


Well, I'd bet you however many frogs he has at the moment that I'm right.

Takes one to know one, on the positive side, if he has a few mg of resperidone and then some other stuff and time isolated from the internet and he will be pretty good a few years later. Rebooting the brain isn't easy.

So, I'm betting its bipolar and this is the worst swing he has ever had; previously he definitely controlled himself and capitalized on it. 

So anyways, you'll all understand how crazy I am once I finally start a thread on the next viv... The size of a decent closet. Going to be making it completely self sustaining... 

-Andrew


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

To be honest, I don't know enough about trademark laws to know if it's a good idea or a monumentally bad one.


----------



## a hill

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> To be honest, I don't know enough about trademark laws to know if it's a good idea or a monumentally bad one.


it might not be the worst move actually if you guys are still really irritated. It would keep him from using it in the future. Heck if someone is bored you can just fill out all the paperwork and whatnot and trademark every word on his website with a specific use TM... 

I could TM "frog" if I really wanted to. Now that said, you'd really need to patent frog genetic sequences to really mess with him, then technically any frog they sell without a license from you would be an issue....


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

phenotype is the word that we need to trademark off his sight.
it could very well cause an aneurysm for him

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## JPccusa

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Let's please keep this thread on topic. The thread is already cluttered as is. No need to add side plotting.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

USA Frog - SAFE® Pet Dart Frogs

Sadly, it seems Vic Ruutan has been let go.
Probably asked for a raise because of the 1000`s of frogs they sell a week
Ricky, have you no shame.

It`s cool Vic, you can hang with us


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just a thought.... Can we all start using do not link on these guys?

Link without improving "their" search engine position | donotlink.com

It's easy to use. Just paste the URL in the box there and get a new one.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You get 3 frogs and one M/F pair. We will select and send you either 2 males and 1 female, OR 1 male and 2 females (choice not available, sorry). 


But Ricky! I thought I always get a choice with my frogs? What happened to your precious FROGMATCHTM garbage?


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Damn they're circling the drain....their companion pairs come with a 10$ gift card for the next purchase.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This is the pathetic excuse of changing their company name! USA Frog is the parent company of US Dart Frog– our wholly owned operating division where we breed and produce all of our frogs and tadpoles.*


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Mixed morph frogs are back. The old AZTEC that could jump 4 feet is now a MAGELLAN


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Mixed morph frogs are back. The old AZTEC that could jump 4 feet is now a MAGELLAN


And of course no mention that it is a mixed morph frog, despite their earlier promises that if and when they did sell mixed morph frogs that they would proudly and openly proclaim them as such. Of course the first time around, when they did that, it didn't go so well for them. Now they're releasing them again on unsuspecting people who won't even know they're getting mixed morph garbage until it is too late.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Mixed morph frogs are back. The old AZTEC that could jump 4 feet is now a MAGELLAN


Hey everybody, Jordan can't tell an AZTEC from a MAGELLAN! *eyeroll and smirk*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> And of course no mention that it is a mixed morph frog, despite their earlier promises that if and when they did sell mixed morph frogs that they would proudly and openly proclaim them as such. Of course the first time around, when they did that, it didn't go so well for them. Now they're releasing them again on unsuspecting people who won't even know they're getting mixed morph garbage until it is too late.



Excellent point. I wish I had taken a screencap of that, not that it would matter. It's a bit disappointing that at each point we've predicted that they would take the sleaziest way out, and each time they do. The bar doesn't get any lower.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Hey everybody, Jordan can't tell an AZTEC from a MAGELLAN! *eyeroll and smirk*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point. I wish I had taken a screencap of that, not that it would matter. It's a bit disappointing that at each point we've predicted that they would take the sleaziest way out, and each time they do. The bar doesn't get any lower.



Psh, of course I can. Not like I'm a frog racist (who do we know that would imply such a thing, surely not you, Jeremy?). 

And I'm sure someone took one


We should also not that they have been lying from the beginning. They originally said they would never sell mixed morph frogs, yet I could go on their website right now and buy myself a 12 month old MAGELLAN. Given that the original thread about them isn't a year old (neither is the company?) this has obviously been in the works for a long while. Never were telling us the truth, were you? Just goes to show, you guys really are the antithesis of everything you preach, huh?


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Subsequent generations are expected to get lighter, but the first original offspring will have the deepest coloration for perfect breeder stock.
This is NOT a cross bred or mixed variety frog. (Lunar ACAJOU)

Am I the only one who thinks this makes no sense whatsoever? Because, if they're expected to get lighter, it wouldn't matter how dark the originals are? And, um, why would they be dark now but not expected to maintain the coloration? I mean, Ricky, you wouldn't be trying to pass this off as something it isn't, right? Right?

I wonder if removing the excessive flash "used to show uniformity of color" would shed more light on this frogs true appearance?


----------



## Giga

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I don't come to these parts that often because it make my brain hurt and heart go out to the poor frogs. But have you seen the Josh's frog facilities tour? Why can't we get one from here?! I would love to see thousands of frogs...........


----------



## Dale D

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Latest trademark. DISHFED.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dale D said:


> Latest trademark. DISHFED.


Who knew you could feed dart frogs in a dish?!

People have been doing this for years. Some prefer to do it this way for a number of reasons I'm sure USA Frog hasn't even considered.

Another not so origional idea from USA frog.


----------



## Dale D

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Who knew you could feed dart frogs in a dish?!


The real accomplishment here is that they have trained their FF's so they will stay in a dish.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just love this one-

"the frogs recognize their feeding dish and become more tame and friendly to their owners"

So that`s why my frogs have been vicious and biting me...there`s no damn feeding dish!!!!

Another gem..

"we`re the only one`s who sell 6+ months frogs."

A little heads up to all you RESPECTABLE vendors, you really should start selling frogs older than 6 months


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"we`re the only one`s who sell 6+ months frogs."

That's because their frogs are not selling......


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Bcs TX said:


> "we`re the only one`s who sell 6+ months frogs."
> 
> That's because their frogs are not selling......


We can only hope that there`s as many people as us laughing at the nonsense they write.

The people they`re targeting have to be 10-12 years old.
Who else would believe such childish fairy tales.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue think on these things"

Rick, I don`t know what the hell all that means...but you are ANYTHING but honest

And get some help please, your ramblings are becoming quite disturbing


----------



## darterfrog4774

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hey, there are plenty of smart 10-12 year olds that can keep dart frogs for your information, but I get your point. Soon enough, they're going to sell darts in fish bowls and teddy tanks (see lounge)


----------



## T2theG

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Do these people realize what they are doing? I've never read so many lies and so much false information in my life. 

Who do they think they are fooling? Seriously though, can anything be done to stop this?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



T2theG said:


> Do these people realize what they are doing? I've never read so many lies and so much false information in my life.
> 
> Who do they think they are fooling? Seriously though, can anything be done to stop this?


Raising awareness is our best weapon. I haven't met a single person, when presented with the facts, that didn't completely reject them. A few will and have fallen through the cracks and have been victimized, but for the most part we really hampering their efforts to get off the ground. Patience and commitment will pay off.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



T2theG said:


> Who do they think they are fooling?


Themselves


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Themselves


This thread usually makes me very bitter when I read it, I had to laugh when I saw this, it was pretty spot on!


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Alright everyone... That's enough with the speculation about mental health and whatnot. It doesn't help the goal of this thread. Keep this thread on topic and keep debunking the lies. Leave the rest of it out of here, it dilutes the good information.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

JOY™ Frogs...

That's a new one, right?


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> JOY™ Frogs...
> 
> That's a new one, right?


I don't know, but I'm trademarking "™" and it's use at the end of words™ ...That will hopefully put a stop to their nonsense™ ™ 

*But seriously does he not get that these distasteful and silly marketing gimmicks are a big part of just how it all went so horribly wrong for them? ™ 
*
Since he's so good about editing his website to reflect/address what is said in this thread, I look forward to an explanation on there of just how/why he just doesn't get it™  ™

P.S.™ ...I've edited my signature™ and have now ™ 'd all emoticons™ and their use™ ...I've also ™ 'd "..." So it's ...™ now ™ ." <---™(Yep the period and parenthesis are mine too)™ 

In fact I've ™ 'd the entire english language, and all uses of all words and punctuation,™ so start typing in Kanji™ *Rick*™ *( <---™OWNED™, LOL ™)* .™ (I'm going to make so much $$$ from google™ "translate"™ Muahahahahhaha™ )™

(While this *post is* *satirical* and an attempt to demonstrate just how silly all this is *by example, especially elements in blue or red, (I actually own no trademarks or their use, (OR DO I?))*, * I am seriously interested in hearing Rick™ explain himself on this subject.*)

*Why do you persist in doing this Rick™ ?*

Sincerely,
*DAVE*™


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



The United states Patent and Trademark Office FAQ said:


> *Do federal regulations govern the use of the designations "TM" or "SM" or the ® symbol?*
> 
> If you claim rights to use a mark, you may use the "TM" (trademark) or "SM" (service mark) designation to alert the public to your claim of a “common-law” mark. No registration is necessary to use a "TM" or "SM" symbol and you may continue to use these symbols even if the USPTO refuses to register your mark. Those symbols put people on notice that you claim rights in the mark, although common law doesn't give you all the rights and benefits of federal registration.
> 
> You may only use the federal registration symbol "®" after the USPTO actually registers a mark, not while an application is pending. And it may only be used on or in connection with the goods/services listed in the federal trademark registration and while the registration is still alive (you may not continue to use it if you don’t maintain the registration or it expires). Although there are no specific requirements on where the symbol should be placed relative to the mark, most businesses use the symbol in the upper right corner of the mark. Note: Because several foreign countries use “®” to indicate that a mark is registered in that country, use of the symbol by the holder of a foreign registration may be proper.


I was always a bit unclear on this, but according to the USPTO website, Dave's trademarks are arguably every bit as valid as those used by Rick. Just because a word has been trademarked does not indicate it's been registered. I think your financial problems are over Dave. Please remember all of us through your meteoric rise to obscene wealth.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They're now selling mint terribilis.


Where the hell do they get new frogs? I certainly hope no one here sells to them.


----------



## Dart girl

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> I don't know, but I'm trademarking "™" and it's use at the end of words™ ...That will hopefully put a stop to their nonsense™ ™
> 
> *But seriously does he not get that these distasteful and silly marketing gimmicks are a big part of just how it all went so horribly wrong for them? ™
> *
> Since he's so good about editing his website to reflect/address what is said in this thread, I look forward to an explanation on there of just how/why he just doesn't get it™  ™
> 
> P.S.™ ...I've edited my signature™ and have now ™ 'd all emoticons™ and their use™ ...I've also ™ 'd "..." So it's ...™ now ™ ." <---™(Yep the period and parenthesis are mine too)™
> 
> In fact I've ™ 'd the entire english language, and all uses of all words and punctuation,™ so start typing in Kanji™ *Rick*™ *( <---™OWNED™, LOL ™)* .™ (I'm going to make so much $$$ from google™ "translate"™ Muahahahahhaha™ )™
> 
> (While this *post is* *satirical* and an attempt to demonstrate just how silly all this is *by example, especially elements in blue or red, (I actually own no trademarks or their use, (OR DO I?))*, * I am seriously interested in hearing Rick™ explain himself on this subject.*)
> 
> *Why do you persist in doing this Rick™ ?*
> 
> Sincerely,
> *DAVE*™



LOL is all I can say


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

SAFE® Dart Frogs - USA Frog - PURBLU (COMING SOON!)

That's right folks, PURBLU Auratus.

"A deep indigo with a hint of purple over a mocha bronze"

I`ll have mine with whipped cream and nuts please.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> SAFE® Dart Frogs - USA Frog - PURBLU (COMING SOON!)
> 
> That's right folks, PURBLU Auratus.
> 
> "A deep indigo with a hint of purple over a mocha bronze"
> 
> I`ll have mine with whipped cream and nuts please.


They don't even mention the best thing about Purblu, which is that he can defend Butterfree's Hyper Reverse Attack with two double colorless energy cards and only get 10 damage points. Let's see Pikachu try that!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Of course PURBLU is tradmarked


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm surprised the guy is still wasting his time and money trademarking their garbage. Everyone else doing their best to distance themselves from the Wascher's and wants zero association with them. The last thing anyone would want a person to think is that they're selling Wascher frogs at this point. But by all mean Rick, keep on trademarking your trash, so everyone else has a clear distinction as far as what to avoid like the plague.


----------



## pa.walt

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm pretty sure dart frog connection is happy that these people are around. now no one is attacking them on the forum here.
walt tm, sm, r,
(sorry but don't know how to make those special marks)


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Interesting, now they have a post in their Breeding section that gives the lines of the frogs. 


Also, they are coming out with a mixed morph line called "REBEL". Gee, I wonder why?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Let`s not forget the all black Tinctorius they`re working on by crossing their "Eclipse and '' Malibue`s"


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thought I'd attach a screenshot of their line information before they remove it (which they certainly will).

BTW Dillon and Ricky, do you think that a mere 3 years of breeding frogs (which take around 12 months to mature) is enough to "identify week lines" and "bring back the vitality"? Really? 3-4 generations and you have it all figured out? 

For the self proclaimed scientists you claim to be, you sure do say some stupid shit ...

When I get some time, we'll dissect the crap that's printed in the "Black Frog Blog" as this is truly a essay in scientific illiteracy and ignorance.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This weeks trademark~ "More frog for your money"


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Anyone else look at the list Donn posted and become even _more_ skeptical (if that's even possible) of their whole "all our frogs are disease free" propaganda...?

Not going to point fingers/name anyone... But I think some of us already know that list contains some collections that have had issues over the last few years...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> Anyone else look at the list Donn posted and become even _more_ skeptical (if that's even possible) of their whole "all our frogs are disease free" propaganda...?
> 
> Not going to point fingers/name anyone... But I think some of us already know that list contains some collections that have had issues over the last few years...


It wasn't hard to figure out where they got a lot of their frogs from. We've known for a while that they got frogs from sources one should be skeptical about. It is nice of them to actually publish themselves, a list of their sources. Now we have a list, made by them, with namess of breeders who we know have had frogs test positive for a host of pathogens. Rick still steadfastly refuses to outright state if they have ever tested any of their frogs ever. Given their ineptitude, it is a relatively safe assumption that no testing of their frogs happened or happens now, and any buyer purchasing frogs from them should be especially careful givin the origins of their frogs, the obvious ignorance about safe husbandry practices, etc. They should be aware of at least one of the larger providers, having sent out some animals that tested positive for Bd, as that "breeder" allegedly let their customers know about the problem.


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> It wasn't hard to figure out where they got a lot of their frogs from. We've known for a while that they got frogs from sources one should be skeptical about. It is nice of them to actually publish themselves, a list of their sources. Now we have a list, made by them, with namess of breeders who we know have had frogs test positive for a host of pathogens. Rick still steadfastly refuses to outright state if they have ever tested any of their frogs ever. Given their ineptitude, it is a relatively safe assumption that no testing of their frogs happened or happens now, and any buyer purchasing frogs from them should be especially careful givin the origins of their frogs, the obvious ignorance about safe husbandry practices, etc. They should be aware of at least one of the larger providers, having sent out some animals that tested positive for Bd, as that "breeder" allegedly let their customers know about the problem.


Then again, _Bd_ may be one of the "secret ingredients" in their hybrids. If they release a line called "Mycospots", beware!


----------



## ZenMonkey

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> It is nice of them to actually publish themselves, a list of their sources. Now we have a list, made by them, with namess of breeders who we know have had frogs test positive for a host of pathogens.



Screenshot that shiz.


----------



## Roadrunner

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Looks like they got them from me.


InvertaHerp said:


> They're now selling mint terribilis.
> 
> 
> Where the hell do they get new frogs? I certainly hope no one here sells to them.


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Would somebody here mind PM'ing me a list of breeders that I should avoid.
I have not been in the hobby long and don't know the who's who....


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dam630 said:


> Would somebody here mind PM'ing me a list of breeders that I should avoid.
> I have not been in the hobby long and don't know the who's who....


Same here. i wouldnt mind getting a list of people to avoid buying from.


----------



## Hayden

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I would also like to know which breeder you guys are referring to that had a recent issue with sick frogs. I've been gone a few years so I'm totally clueless on this.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Quite apparent that Rick is utilizing dendroboards' classifieds to cherry pick new frogs. I think we all need to be aware of who were selling our frogs to.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I know one of the breeders off that list and he also breeds pums and thumbs. Wouldn't shock me if they ended up on their website before long.
The problem is that when you are selling at a show you don't know where those frogs are going to end up. Rick could have someone pick up frogs at any event and then start breeding them then post that be bought frogs from your table and you are none the wiser.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Roadrunner said:


> Looks like they got them from me.


Are you confirming that they bought them from you?


----------



## Roadrunner

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No, just that that's what it looks like. Couldn't discount it as I've sold at lot's of shows and pet shops and resellers and have probably bred more mints than anyone else in the country. If they are breeding them they probably got them years ago and I can't remember what day it is so....
Definitely didn't get them from me in the last few years unless at a show or didn't pay thru paypal.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It would be very interesting if the waschers identified themselves before making a purchase. Interesting to see who would and would not deal with them. I have a feeling that 100% of people who have read this thread would not sell them that piece of lint out of the corner of their dirty laundry. Most, if not all of the hobby knows how disgusting these people treat their livestock. I feel bad for the frogs in their possession. The thousands of frogs being sold to newbies who are more than likely killing them due to misinformation, the horrid conditions they are more than likely being kept in and their mad scientist breeder/owners. Just sad to see people who look at them as dollars instead of animals. But we all have seen Rick who is a sociopath with no conscience or morals.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



PDFanatic said:


> Quite apparent that Rick is utilizing dendroboards' classifieds to cherry pick new frogs. I think we all need to be aware of who were selling our frogs to.


I'm confused, what's your basis for this?


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



PDFanatic said:


> I feel bad for the frogs in their possession. The thousands of frogs being sold to newbies who are more than likely killing them due to misinformation,


Time for the regular things to ponder comments.... 

So let's look at this statement above.... Lets look at some of that idea... first off, there isn't any proof that the only people who are purchasing from them are newbie frog people although there is a good chance that is what is happening, second, is it better for the newbies to kill wild caught frogs? There have been significant numbers of imported wild caught/"farmed" frogs that have simply disappeared... [From 2004-2007 there actually more than 16,000 pumilio exported from Panama alone for commercial purposes (with more than 22,000 between 2004-2009).] This is from before the people under discussion began their questionable practices so which is worse? Losing captive bred animals or wild caught animals in the thousands? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This is new? Maybe not but I just noticed it.



> This section will provide some easy to follow steps, and eliminate the mysteries surrounding breeding fully domesticated colorful pet frogs. In addition, we will dispel the intentional deceptions put out there to discourage you. For example, DO NOT change your tadpole water unless you want a high rate of tadpole deaths. Anybody advocating tadpole water changes is doing it wrong and possibly deceiving you. More on that later!


Wait wutttt!

LMAO.... This should be good for a laugh..... But then again with Mr. phenotype, when aren't you not laughing.

(Let's not go into a debate about water changes or not, I think most of us here are familiar with the basic arguements, it's about Rick CLAIMING intentional deceptions, high death rates, and that people who do water changes are doing it wrong)


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Really Rick?
Intentional deceptions?!?

You pretty much do this on a daily basis.
How do you walk with balls that big.
How many people do you deceive with your "other past time"

You give hypocrite a whole new meaning and I live for the day when someone finally shuts 
you the **** up.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

...and another thing, seeing as your breeding and selling 1000`s of frogs how about making
a donation to some of the people here doing REAL and HONEST work.

We will gladly supply you the links


----------



## boombotty

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Great, REBEL frogs are out now, just what the hobby needed. I know others have produced hybrids, but they keep them and don't advertise them for sale, especially saying how they are superior to pure lines.

And we're the ones with the "intentional deceptions". Delusional!


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



DesignerFrogs said:


> Our phenotype data shows us which original pure lines are the most pure so we can breed those OF THE SAME variety and produce the best pure, thoroughbred frogs. Without knowing which "pure" lines out there are indeed the purest as to their variety, there is no way to produce the best frog or support which pure lines SHOULD BE the example to prove subspecies or speciation theories for Tinctorius or Auratus for example. In the meantime we sell the F1 Hybrid as an awesome pet frog! Our work is essential for all to learn which available frog lines are purest even if they were wild caught, because the experts say they do interbreed in the wild. Hence, unbeknownst to the original importer, were their first frogs "pure"? Our breeding programs go far to identify purity, and we may share this information publicly even though very valuable to a frog breeder seeking to produce the best frogs!
> 
> Because our REBEL™ frogs are not a line bred frog, and the fact these frogs interbreed in the wild and the all frog varieties are on an isolated island theory to maintain purity only goes so far if inbreeding is undesirable, even the traditional "PURE" lines vary in purity and nobody really knows which are most pure. How can we show this? Simple, when two "pure" lines of one variety are bred to another dissimilar variety, the phenotype (appearance) of the offspring gives strong clues as to which of the competing pure line parents is best. An appearance highly similar to one parent or the other is indicative of relative purity, but several iterations to be conclusive is best. We are activley enaged in these studies.


This makes complete sense provided you have no concept of the definitions of "pure" or "best"...or actually even "hybrid" for that matter. 

1. If the experts insist there are no differences between localities, how can one frog be more "pure" than another?

2. How, in a population, can dominant genes be considered "pure" and recessive genes are not "best", and are you even aware that you are making that conclusion?

3. How is linebreeding detrimental, but pursuing some phenotypic ideal by matching frogs with similar genetics ideal?

4. On completely linguistic note, how can anything be "more pure"?

5. Why do you still not know the difference between an intergrade, a crossbreed, and a hybrid?

6. If you don't recognize locales, how can one tinc bred with another be a hybrid? For that matter how can it be a crossbreed?

7. Why are you so in favor of artificial phenotypic diversity, but so against natural phenotypic diversity? 

...pure drivel.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Facts only please.

No need to get personal.

*Stick to the facts.*

I realize that something like this seems personal to us. I don't think it is - and "we" can't let it seem that way. So just stick to the facts - leave the embellishments out please.

s


Enlightened Rogue said:


> Really Rick?
> Intentional deceptions?!?
> 
> You pretty much do this on a daily basis.
> How do you walk with balls that big.
> How many people do you deceive with your "other past time"
> 
> You give hypocrite a whole new meaning and I live for the day when someone finally shuts
> you the **** up.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just visited the site, no mention of REBEL frogs to be found. Who types a couple pages of script one day, then deletes it the next...everyday?? It's almost like two different people are editing the site and they have different opinions on company direction. Whenever I visit the site I always keep asking myself "Am I in the right place??". It's the same feeling when your car isn't where you parked it and you start questioning your memory.

Sometimes I kinda' wonder if we're not all just being trolled.


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It is mentioned on this page...

Frog Breeding Arts - ARTfrogs™


----------



## boombotty

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If you go to usdartfrog.com, Rebel frogs pops up on the main page.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



boombotty said:


> If you go to usdartfrog.com, Rebel frogs pops up on the main page.


Ah...sorry. I was at another of the aliases.


----------



## big_frog

*Reported Post by ZookeeperDoug*

Just thought I'd relate my experience. I just got back into the hobby and purchased from Rick before reading this thread.. 
Granted these could be crossbreed but, the frogs from Rick were bought for display purposes only for an 8ft. 300gal viv. (Posting picks soon)
I do agree all the BS on the site and naming frogs is a bit much


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Just thought I'd relate my experience. I just got back into the hobby and purchased from Rick before reading this thread..
> Granted these could be crossbreed but, the frogs from Rick were bought for display purposes only for an 8ft. 300gal viv. (Posting picks soon)
> I do agree all the BS on the site and naming frogs is a bit much


All the BS is the biggest issue. Also, we don't know that you got what you ordered, so to say. Anyone who is good seller will ship you healthy frogs. For the sake of the hobby, don't reccomend them to anyone, please.


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> All the BS is the biggest issue. Also, we don't know that you got what you ordered, so to say. Anyone who is good seller will ship you healthy frogs. For the sake of the hobby, don't reccomend them to anyone, please.


You are correct in that unless DNA tests were done to see if they were pure I really won't know.. I guess I should say I would only recommend them for display/educational purposes only..


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> You are correct in that unless DNA tests were done to see if they were pure I really won't know.. I guess I should say I would only recommend them for display/educational purposes only..


Do you have a plan in place if the frogs breed? Are you planning on culling the eggs? What if they successfully hide a clutch from you?

What if you end up leaving the hobby again, what do you do with the frogs then?


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It appears they are slapping trademarks on frogs with minor appearance differences, for example a super blue with more bronze coloration is now an ANDE.


----------



## jdooley195

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> It appears they are slapping trademarks on frogs with minor appearance differences, for example a super blue with more bronze coloration is now an ANDE.


So, are the trademarks a joke or what...that name was just extended on its former trademark Free Trademark Search | Protect Business Name | Incorporate Your Business | Trademarkia appears to belong to some engineers?


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

My name is trademarked and I don't appreciate seeing it used on their webpage without my permission.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



jdooley195 said:


> So, are the trademarks a joke or what...that name was just extended on its former trademark Free Trademark Search | Protect Business Name | Incorporate Your Business | Trademarkia appears to belong to some engineers?


When you slap TM on a name it doesn't mean it's been registered necessarily. It's just the author stating their claim (legal or not) to a word in that context and warning others not to use it. As far as I know the only word that they've registered is "SAFE"

As far as the poster who purchased frogs for display only and is not necessarily worried about lineage...how do you feel about supporting a business who uses dishonest statements and, on some occasions, outright lies to sell animals to the uninformed? You likely got the frogs you ordered, that's not really the issue. Fortune may have smiled on you and those frogs aren't harboring any of the real nasty stuff that Rick feels he will never have to test for. 

...but in the end, you've supported a business who doesn't mind risking damage to the future of the hobby if it makes them a few bucks You've supported an owner that, when these serious concerns were pointed out to them, came back with "Hey, we're just talking about frogs here". 

Maybe your not all that discerning with who you give your money to, but I'd rather support fellow enthusiasts who invest in the future of the hobby...and also just happen to own Dart Frog related businesses. There's plenty of them around and they're worth a couple bucks more.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> My name is trademarked and I don't appreciate seeing it used on their webpage without my permission.


Let them know Jon. I don't blame you one bit. I sure as heck wouldn't want my name there. This clown is well aware of how the hobby feels about them and he still has the stones to put out all those names simply to make them look better. Yet another example of the sheer arrogance of him. I would be hard pressed at this point to have less respect for someone.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Let them know Jon. I don't blame you one bit. I sure as heck wouldn't want my name there. This clown is well aware of how the hobby feels about them and he still has the stones to put out all those names simply to make them look better. Yet another example of the sheer arrogance of him. I would be hard pressed at this point to have less respect for someone.


And he has the audacity to insult them by inferring and outright stating that some of these lines are weak and inferior. The more plausible scenario given the Wascher's very limited experience is that their poor husbandry and ignorance have led to diminished vitality of their animals and their offspring.


----------



## ZenMonkey

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> As far as the poster who purchased frogs for display only and is not necessarily worried about lineage...how do you feel about supporting a business who uses dishonest statements and, on some occasions, outright lies to sell animals to the uninformed? You likely got the frogs you ordered, that's not really the issue. Fortune may have smiled on you and those frogs aren't harboring any of the real nasty stuff that Rick feels he will never have to test for.
> 
> ...but in the end, you've supported a business who doesn't mind risking damage to the future of the hobby if it makes them a few bucks You've supported an owner that, when these serious concerns were pointed out to them, came back with "Hey, we're just talking about frogs here".


The poster claimed he bought before seeing this thread. Is it really fair or kind to bawl him out for unintentional ignorance? Especially when he was honest enough to post in here about it? And given that he's now read the thread and sees the problems -- what's he supposed to do, retroactively not support them? 

People make mistakes. I myself made a very big mistake when I asked someone I trusted to build a vivarium for me, and I will never support that store again, plus I post in places like Yelp to warn others. I'm very glad that people were understanding and helpful when I went to seek help from the forums. I think "Well now you know better" is a more helpful response than reiterating over and over how bad a mistake was and why.

On a separate note, I have to say I've been kind of amused seeing your username in this thread. Boondoggle posting about a boondoggle! (Okay, so I'm easily amused, sue me.)


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZenMonkey said:


> The poster claimed he bought before seeing this thread. Is it really fair or kind to bawl him out for unintentional ignorance? Especially when he was honest enough to post in here about it? And given that he's now read the thread and sees the problems -- what's he supposed to do, retroactively not support them?
> 
> People make mistakes. I myself made a very big mistake when I asked someone I trusted to build a vivarium for me, and I will never support that store again, plus I post in places like Yelp to warn others. I'm very glad that people were understanding and helpful when I went to seek help from the forums. I think "Well now you know better" is a more helpful response than reiterating over and over how bad a mistake was and why.
> 
> On a separate note, I have to say I've been kind of amused seeing your username in this thread. Boondoggle posting about a boondoggle! (Okay, so I'm easily amused, sue me.)


Yeah, I didn't mean to smash the guy, but in my defense I was responding to his post before the mods edited it. He gave a product review and it wasn't "I made a mistake and I see the problem". Also, I was responding specifically to him saying he would still recommend DFW for frogs used for display/informational purposes. I think supporting that business would be a mistake whether the frog's lineage was suspect or not. 

...didn't mean to come off draconian, though. Apologies if I did big_frog.


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> Do you have a plan in place if the frogs breed? Are you planning on culling the eggs? What if they successfully hide a clutch from you?
> 
> What if you end up leaving the hobby again, what do you do with the frogs then?


They are all males so unless this is Jurassic park there will be no breeding.. LOL


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Yeah, I didn't mean to smash the guy, but in my defense I was responding to his post before the mods edited it. He gave a product review and it wasn't "I made a mistake and I see the problem". Also, I was responding specifically to him saying he would still recommend DFW for frogs used for display/informational purposes. I think supporting that business would be a mistake whether the frog's lineage was suspect or not.
> 
> ...didn't mean to come off draconian, though. Apologies if I did big_frog.


No worries man no offense taken..


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sooo, they changed the website up again.

C`mon, it`s been a week.

Everyone lets gather around and wait for the latest installment of scientific breakthrough`s, trademarks and listen how all the uneducated people like Donn, Ed, Doug, Jeremy, ect ect have been doing it all wrong all this time.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Sooo, they changed the website up again.
> 
> C`mon, it`s been a week.
> 
> Everyone lets gather around and wait for the latest installment of scientific breakthrough`s, trademarks and listen how all the uneducated people like Donn, Ed, Doug, Jeremy, ect ect have been doing it all wrong all this time.


Maybe we are!

Rebel frogs on Monday. Joy.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I read through this enough to get the message, and have a quick question;

Which name are they exhibiting under at shows and does anyone have a photo of their booth?

I am taking my 7 year old to both the Mass and New England Reptile Expos. I want to stay far away if they are there. Hoping to avoid something catching his eye at their table, and having to say no...

Bonus question- Do they exhibit at either of these two shows?

Thanks,
Scott


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog*

I think it doubtful they even attend shows. 

Seeing as we have members in just about every state I`m sure someone would have spotted them by now.

I can tell you for a fact they don`t vend at White Plains because I rarely miss that one.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The scary thing is them wholesaling frogs to vendor that doesn't disclose who bred their frogs up front.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> The scary thing is them wholesaling frogs to vendor that doesn't disclose who bred their frogs up front.


Good point Jon.
I mean we know to stay away from someone like that, but does anyone new know enough?


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No. New people have a single thought: "owning dart frogs would be cool"


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Good point Jon.
> I mean we know to stay away from someone like that, but does anyone new know enough?


Unless you ask them directly where they got their frogs from, the buyer will assume the seller bred the frogs themselves.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks for the replies, and Charlie, not all new keepers are that obtuse lol. 

That's why I'm asking now, 7 weeks before the show. I may just drive over to Black Jungle for the frogs and pick up supplies only at the expos...


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I can tell you for a fact they don`t vend at White Plains because I rarely miss that one.


Good to know, and maybe I will catch you at the next one. I am from LI originally, and have been to the White Plains show many times...


----------



## oldlady25715

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I you see a vendor selling a trademarked "Malibu" dart frog, it's pretty easy to guess where it came from.


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

<font face="sarcasm"> But I wanted to get a Malibu Dart Frog </font>


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



oldlady25715 said:


> I you see a vendor selling a trademarked "Malibu" dart frog, it's pretty easy to guess where it came from.


Yes, the few dozen people that have read this thread know exactly where they came from. There are still hundreds of others on this forum and thousands of people attending reptile shows that have no clue who the Waschers are and for all they know a "Malibu" is just a regular dart frog.
I for one would be happy to educate any show attendees about who these purveyors of mutant, made up, pseudo scientific, hybrid, frog mongers are. Perhaps by providing a live feed to this thread at every show I vend at.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So they rolled out their mutts again, still unimpressed. Such Rebels these Wascher's......


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



That ridiculous site said:


> What is a REBEL™ frog?
> 
> Aside from an extraordinary animal of superior genetics and lineages, REBEL™ frogs are the offspring of pure bred, top quality, adult frog parents that differ in phenotype (appearance). The REBEL™ frog is a fabulous mixed race frog!


Please provide any proof whatsoever for your initial statement.



That ridiculous site said:


> What species are they?
> 
> Though they are a mixed race frog, REBEL™ frogs are 100% PURE TINCTORIUS (species) or 100% PURE AURATUS (species)!
> 
> How can they be a mixed race frog and still be "pure" to the species?
> Like humans, there are no subspecies of these frogs. Tinctorius and Auratus do NOT have a subspecies. The phenotype (appearance) most definitely controls any informal sub-classification for identification purposes. Every REBEL frog is the offspring of either combination: a pure Tinctorius male and a pure Tinctorius female, or a pure Auratus male and a pure Auratus female. (They cannot properly be described as “crossbreeds” because the species of the parents are the same, that is unless someone also has the gall to say the children of a mixed race couple are “crossbreeds.”)


Way to play the race card here but you're wrong. The quick google definition for crossbreed, which you apparently decided to not even look into before defining it, is an animal or plant produced by mating or hybridizing two different species, breeds, or *varieties*. People come in all kinds of varieties. By definition is you cross different varieties you have a "crossbreed". We don't use that language with people because, historically, that crap has been used by racists to demean someone with a different cultural background. Your intention was to liken your detractors to racists. That's just dumb. Frogs do not share the same cultural courtesies that humans do. They don't offend, and they don't get hurt feelings. Interesting that you will say "mixed raced" but not "crossbreed". I'll break it down for you. If a _Canis lupus familiaris_ who happens to be a Doberman breeds with a _Canis lupus familiaris_ that happens to be a German Shepherd, the resulting dog is called "a dog of mixed race"...oh no wait, that would be dumb. It's called "crossbred" or a "crossbreed". Does that take gall as well? 



That ridiculous site said:


> Are REBEL™ frogs “hybrid(s)”?
> 
> No. They most certainly are capable of reproducing. REBEL™ frogs have parents of different races, they are mixed race frogs, not hybrids.


You know, you are still the only one I know that maintains that hybrid is a synonym for sterile. You are not busting a myth here, your just showing your scientific incompetence. 



That ridiculous site said:


> As a breeder, will you disclose the family line information of the parents?
> 
> Unfortunately, on the advice of counsel for the company, the answer is no.
> 
> Our phenotype data includes our “best of the best” family (line) information. We came about this data as a result of our own efforts to pair, breed, and produce thousands upon thousands of offspring, and observe each one. Like all our frog offspring, the family information of the parent of every REBEL frog is a valuable trade secret. Sure, we will share the race of every frog parent, but not the family they came from.


Jeez, I wasn't aware you took counsel. Could you please, once and for all, qualify what you mean by the term "best" in this context because I'm sure this can't just be a vague term that is used to sell frogs but still remain impossible to qualify or refute. Just kidding, that's exactly what it is. 



That ridiculous site said:


> Why is the family line information such a valuable trade secret? We know the male and female attributes of every frog parent we breed, as well as the relative strength in phenotype (appearance) traits for each of them by their offspring. Stated another way, for every frog we breed, we study the outwardly observable genetic traits and and compare those traits to the parents that contributed them. From there, the most dominant traits visible in the offspring are noted. This helps determine the "family line power” (our internal term). That line power metric is relied on by us for the best offspring, and a reason all our frogs are bigger for their age than the competition's frogs. (“Line power” to us means which lines are strongest and best for the traditional classic lines of same race parents. There is NO way to determine this line strength unless you mix the race of the frogs and study their offspring!) Hence, how the parental traits are revealed in the offspring is indicative of line power, and a valuable trade secret for our company to produce the BEST frogs out there. In short, our expanded phenotype mapping data we have always used, and build over time, is what we have and use to produce and sell the best frogs, same race or mixed race, period


I'm not even sure if you realize that all this amounts to is purging recessive genetics. Purging genetics means lost genetics to the hobby. Lost genetics means less viable breeding, not more. You may be able to isolate some useful genes for tank life, but in the end you are pursuing homogeneity...the same end result of linebreeding...which you condemn.



That ridiculous site said:


> Who else in the world breeds for and/or sells a mixed race frog?
> 
> Nobody! The only place to get them is right here–USA Frog!


That might be the first true statement here. Most others can understand the compelling reasons not to. You cannot. 



That ridiculous site said:


> A questions that needs to be asked:
> 
> Who else in the world goes through all that effort we do to yield top quality, pet frogs?
> Nobody! The only place to get them is right here–USA Frog!


Thank God, but just to be clear you're not doing anything that any irresponsible breeder couldn't do. Anybody can throw any two frogs together and make up a name. In fact, that's the first thought of most people when first introduced to the hobby. With just the tiniest bit of research, though, 99% of those can easily see that it's not a good idea and that it ultimately is bad for the future of the hobby. 

I believe you can see that too. You just don't give a damn. I've watched you juggle justifications to maintain an uneducated conclusion you made before starting your whole venture. It's funny when the justifications keeps changing, faulty reasoning gets thrown out when exposed to be replaced by weirdly warped logic, but the conclusion never changes. It's the definition of a biased agenda.

Since your taking council I have something to offer. Just be honest. At the top of the "Rebel" page just type:

"We here at the DFW crossbreed frogs, much to the disdain of the responsible hobby. I'm not going to insult your intelligence with a bunch of double-talk. It's bad for the hobby, as it eventually throws doubt upon associated lineages and discourages breeding of those lines. That, in turn, puts pressure on wild populations. While, in principle, we are not necessarily for that, we're just not going to worry too much about it. We want to do what we want to do and, despite all the evidence, we still figure there's a buck to be made. Please purchase our frogs. They look different than wild strains...a little. They're not prettier, but they're different...and that's worth wrecking the hobby over."

See? Just type the truth and you don't have to justify yourselves to anyone. You don't have to tie your brains up in weird circular anti-logic, and you wont be embarrassed by having all your lies exposed one by one on this site. I mean, what are you so ashamed of? Of Course, that's a rhetorical question.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Admins, please feel free to delete this post. I apologize if it is crossing a line. It is NOT my intention to address any religious issues.

I've noticed a quote that has been on the Wascher's site recently. Specifically, it's on the "REBEL" page, but it seemed like something was missing. The quote (from an unnamed source) is:

"...whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

You may have wondered what the ellipses at the beginning of the quote was omitting. The portion of the quote (from an unnamed source) that is missing is:

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are *true*..."

I wonder why they would omit that part? 

Again, NOT a religious discussion, I just find it interesting they would feel like this quote was important enough to include on that particular page, but would specifically omit the part about truthfulness. Everybody be positive and play nice...don't worry about facts though.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Facts? Who needs facts when you can just make up crap as you go, hell if you get caught just go back and change the "facts"


----------



## Dale D

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

USA Frog, Anyone? From the Frog Forum.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dale D said:


> USA Frog, Anyone? From the Frog Forum.


Happily, they canceled their order it seems. Good to know that we're taking business away from them, and more portantly money from their pockets!


----------



## kcexotics

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> The scary thing is them wholesaling frogs to vendor that doesn't disclose who bred their frogs up front.


 Underground Reptiles now sells every species Rick and Dillon work with...Coincidence???? Now their garbage is going to start popping up at a show near you


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



kcexotics said:


> Underground Reptiles now sells every species Rick and Dillon work with...Coincidence???? Now their garbage is going to start popping up at a show near you


That's why they are underground. The name says it it all. Let's hope none of their frogs see the light of day.


----------



## grendel88

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I noticed the exact same thing. Underground suddenly came up with a huge influx of frogs. A lot of them are not so common in the hobby. I think it is safe to assume there is a Wascher connection. Underground also had a shipment of wild caught Shanjing newts (threatened species) recently, of which very few seemed to have survived. USA Frog seems to be surviving by selling to their friends in (very) low places.


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



grendel88 said:


> I noticed the exact same thing. Underground suddenly came up with a huge influx of frogs. A lot of them are not so common in the hobby. I think it is safe to assume there is a Wascher connection. Underground also had a shipment of wild caught Shanjing newts (threatened species) recently, of which very few seemed to have survived. USA Frog seems to be surviving by selling to their friends in (very) low places.


Perhaps it's time for USFWS to give them a visit.


----------



## kcexotics

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This is the reply I got when I ask Underground who the breeder was.

_No problem. What do you mean by lineage information? Unfortunately I do not give out the breeders I buy from. Thank you.

Underground Reptiles
Phone: 954-428-8005
Web: Underground Reptiles - Exotic Reptiles, Amphibians, Lizards and Mammals 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/undergroundreptiles
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ugreptiles
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com//UNDERGROUNDREPTILES_

_I was told by the breeder these guys came from blue/blue parents that came from Jason Pasquall in IL. I had a friend of ours Marcus Breece ID these guys as well for us. He owns Simply Natural Dart Frogs here in S. Fl. I hope that helps.
Underground Reptiles
Phone: 954-428-8005
Web: Underground Reptiles - Exotic Reptiles, Amphibians, Lizards and Mammals 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/undergroundreptiles
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ugreptiles
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com//UNDERGROUNDREPTILES_


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not surprised. Of course for a company touting that their frogs are the biggest and baddest out there, looking at the pictures of the actual frogs they produce, tiny, sitting next to pennies, they look rather ordinary. Of course I'm sure that, as they have done in the past, any time there s a problem with their animals, DFW will blame their customers.


----------



## scooter7728

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So these sellers are like puppy mills just pumping out frogs to turn a profit. I did notice all their frogs have different names than I've seen on other sites. I like others starting out, came across their website and was happily surprised with the prices and the selection. I guess I was wrong and glad Invertaherp gave me the heads up. But like I told my son always good to do research and read up.


----------



## scooter7728

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

should i rephrase that "seller"


----------



## Frog Town

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yesterday I walked into a local PetCo and I saw that they had a green tree python for sale. I asked the clerk how long it had been in the store and he said a little over a month. He didn't know the age but they had it in one of the smallest cage compartments. It was asleep but looked healthy. The price was $299.99.

How long do you think it will be before PetCo or PetsMart start selling Dart Frogs?

Here's where I'm going with this...Without sounding elitist, there was a time when the average person would never have access to these animals. It was the rare individual who would research, study, and then seek out these animals and then over time gain knowledge about them. Without going into a long treatise over this, with all the new products, more keepers/breeders and thus lower prices, dart frogs are making their way into the hands of many people who just shouldn't have them.

I decided some time ago not to buy frogs from anyone who didn't have a long track record here on this board or in the hobby. I've noticed beginners aren't even interested in buying a young group of 5-6 frogs and watching them grow up and instead they are going straight for mated pairs of Tincs and complain about high prices from the reputable dealers or breeders.

This is also why a lot of you old-timers don't even bother answering the beginners questions anymore. I know it must be frustrating answering question after question about if it's okay to mix different species of dart frogs together. You tell them why it's a bad idea and give the reasons against it and then they come back again with another question about it, but deep down you know they're going to do it anyway.

As far as USA Frogs, are they doing anything illegal or is it just unethical? I myself don't like what they are doing but unless they're breaking some law there may not be anything you can do about them other than warning people. Even so, most of these new people in the hobby are going to do what they want even if they are warned against it by an experienced dart frogger.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Frog Town said:


> As far as USA Frogs, are they doing anything illegal or is it just unethical? I myself don't like what they are doing but unless they're breaking some law there may not be anything you can do about them other than warning people.


Illegal no. Unethical yes.

Can we stop them? At this point probably not.
If they chose to go about this with a shred of decency and honesty this thread wouldn`t even be here.
But no, as soon as they found out what they were doing wasn`t the way to go about this they closed their memberships here and took off giving frogs their own made up name`s and giving out the worst advise possible.
If anyone new is reading this it`s NOT ok to handle these frogs.
They also don`t need a BFF.
These people are not the only ones who offer a live arrival guarantee, check our sponsors and see how to go about this the right way.
Despite all the ''awesomeness" they spew on a daily basis they have but one goal: to take your money and be as dishonest and uncaring as a group of scumbags could possibly be.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> But no, as soon as they found out what they were doing wasn`t the way to go about this they closed their memberships here and took off giving frogs their own made up name`s and giving out the worst advise possible.


Let's be clear though, they knew this wasn't the way to do things from the start. Their intent has always been deception, dishonesty, and misinformation. They THOUGHT we were either too stupid to see through their charade or that we would go quietly or accept the inevitable. We will not.


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They are the Ron Popeil (Ronco Products) of the pet industry.
Its all about marketing hype and selling their product to the next sucker.
There are 6 billion customers out there in the world and they only have to sell to each one of them ONCE. Customer service and loyalty mean nothing to these types of people. I have been into herps since I was a kid (PDF's are new to me) and I have met these kind of people several times in my life. They always have a gimmick and some ploy as to get their wares sold to the next sucker. Often you are not even aware they are shysters because they are good at "talking the talk", but when it comes right down to it they never know how to "walk the walk". Once you catch on to their antics you stay clear of them and move on, you tell anyone willing to listen and just hope that they stop purchasing from these lowlifes.
Word of mouth is the best advertisement going.


----------



## scooter7728

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I do my research and like to ask ?'s. I had spoken with someone thru email, first the father and he told me my son with contact you shortly and he did with alot of info. What he sent me seemed like a generic email he probably sends to everyone. Then I asked I noticed you don't sell any supplies like leaf litter, live cultures, etc. to order with my frogs. He stated if you need that stuff you have to get it from someone else. That's when the red flag came up. That's when I said to myself I'll shop around a bit more.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

yay! i hope there are more people like you.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Frog Town said:


> As far as USA Frogs, are they doing anything illegal or is it just unethical? I myself don't like what they are doing but unless they're breaking some law there may not be anything you can do about them other than warning people. Even so, most of these new people in the hobby are going to do what they want even if they are warned against it by an experienced dart frogger.


Just unethical. If they had to read their website while under oath, that would be illegal.


----------



## a hill

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So I just thought of something. 

Does anyone think they could be bought out (the whole group of "companies") with the family required to sign an indefinite non-compete agreement? 

Then, if they came back a simple attorney could get rid of them. 

-Andrew


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay, so now Diatomaceous Earth is just as bad as Methylparaben, because it dehydrates and cuts insects, and can do that to frogs...what is the validity of this? 

Curious. They failed to cite a source, but who the hell knows?


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Okay, so now Diatomaceous Earth is just as bad as Methylparaben, because it dehydrates and cuts insects, and can do that to frogs...what is the validity of this?
> ?


It will damage the skin of the frogs and dehydrate them if you either roll the frog in the DE or place the frog in a container with DE and pretend your breading a porkchop by vigorously shaking the container. 

I suspect they think that people are mixing it into the media as opposed to placing it under the cups to prevent mites from crossing the desert in search of the promised land of media. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> It will damage the skin of the frogs and dehydrate them if you either roll the frog in the DE or place the frog in a container with DE and pretend your breading a porkchop by vigorously shaking the container.
> 
> I suspect they think that people are mixing it into the media as opposed to placing it under the cups to prevent mites from crossing the desert in search of the promised land of media.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Careful Ed, don't give them any ideas. ...*cough*, "Prepackaged ready bake frogs...TM"..."They'll get to know you and be your best friends, but in a pinch you can eat them because they are completely SAFE TM"

Its also bad to pour bleach on a frog, tape them to bottle rockets, or spray em with liquid.nitrogen... you know if you want them to live and whatnot. Hopefully they'll tackle those topics in the next website edit.... We gotta get the word out!!!!


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> It will damage the skin of the frogs and dehydrate them if you either roll the frog in the DE or place the frog in a container with DE and pretend your breading a porkchop by vigorously shaking the container.
> 
> I suspect they think that people are mixing it into the media as opposed to placing it under the cups to prevent mites from crossing the desert in search of the promised land of media.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I just about spit mountain dew across the room reading this. The thought of putting a frog in there like a shake n bake recipe just about made me lose it. Thanks Ed


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They talk about frogs ingesting it. I thought I read somewhere that its is used internally for parasite control maybe?


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They talk about a lot of stuff... most of which they have no clue what they are talking about. They must get this stuff from facebook or something.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So remember back when they were lying about having some super top secret proprietary supplements that were better than Repashy?

Seems they've been using Rep-Cal Herptavite and Calcium with D3 all along and are now selling those products. Not saying either are bad products, I know many people use them, just pointing out that yet again, one of their claims is proven false.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> We have bred hundreds of pairs and raise thousands of frogs right now, so not just a few. Back when we raised frogs as a hobby, long before this business, we used methylparaben (Meth) in our fly cultures because everybody did. When we stopped using Meth laced media, because we needed our own reliable recipe and a better cycle to produce better yields in order to feed many fmore rogs. We found our frogs grew faster and larger without METH! Read our reviews...our frogs are bigger! (BTW, we guarantee the ages of our frogs are accurate and we know their morph dates.)


So much for their past claims that none of their frogs has ever been fed flies with Meth...


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Okay, so now Diatomaceous Earth is just as bad as Methylparaben, because it dehydrates and cuts insects, and can do that to frogs...what is the validity of this?
> 
> Curious. They failed to cite a source, but who the hell knows?


I wonder if they are speaking from experience and used it improperly... Sadly, this seems a real possibility to me.

Thank you, everyone, for keeping this going. I have long since stopped viewing their site because all of the intentionally deceptive information makes me depressed. However, I have followed this thread for the love of this community and our wonderful hobby. This thread is one of the best I've ever read. 

Thank you once again,
John


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow, they know every frog's morph date? Thousands of frogs and they still keep such accurate records...

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dam630 said:


> They talk about a lot of stuff... most of which they have no clue what they are talking about. They must get this stuff from facebook or something.


I think they pull it from somewhere lower... near where some people keep their brain and/or wallet ...Same place most of what they say seems to come from 

But seriously, ancedotal one or two off observations don't = science... and that's one of the major issues with them. 

Example of how they seem to think (IMO):

I saw a lizard in the woods .. and I saw a fire while I was there camping = Dragons must be real... SCIENCE!!!

...Ta da/Meh (But in fairness/full diclosure... I would believe in Dragons before I took their word on anything) ;/


----------



## 3rikrobl3s

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I heard some not so great things about these guys over the weekend. I just went onto their page and they had Pairs of frogs for $99.99. I refreshed the page and the price jumped to $149.99. I did it again and it went up to $179.99. 

It only took me 5 minutes to know they are doing something pretty bad.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



3rikrobl3s said:


> I heard some not so great things about these guys over the weekend. I just went onto their page and they had Pairs of frogs for $99.99. I refreshed the page and the price jumped to $149.99. I did it again and it went up to $179.99.
> 
> It only took me 5 minutes to know they are doing something pretty bad.


Great first post!

There goes their crazy low prices for "pairs". I was hoping this company would burn up before their prices rose. Now they blend in a bit better instead of standing out like a sore thumb. If a company has significantly lower prices than the majority, I do much more research on them before buying and I'm sure I'm not the only one. This raise in price might only sucker more unsuspecting people into buying their frogs. 

John


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

gotta love how they shorten it to "meth"

It's nice to know their frogs won't suffer from "meth mouth" as they age...


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> They talk about frogs ingesting it. I thought I read somewhere that its is used internally for parasite control maybe?



Except the studies really don't show any benefit from using it as an internal anti-parasitic see for example... Cambridge Journals Online - Animal Science - Abstract - Effect of diatomaceous earth as an anthelmintic treatment on internal parasites and feedlot performance of beef steers 
Since they are talking about the frogs ingesting it.. the same studies do not demonstrate that is had negative effects when ingested at low to moderate levels. I didn't see any studies using high levels as an internal antiparasitic. 


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## oldlady25715

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> Great first post!
> 
> There goes their crazy low prices for "pairs". I was hoping this company would burn up before their prices rose. Now they blend in a bit better instead of standing out like a sore thumb. If a company has significantly lower prices than the majority, I do much more research on them before buying and I'm sure I'm not the only one. This raise in price might only sucker more unsuspecting people into buying their frogs.
> 
> John


I've seen the hotel and airline websites do this, but it's a new one for frog sales what a scam.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I didn't look very hard, but all mentions of methyparaben and their media are conspicuously missing from their website. Gee, I wonder why?


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



oldlady25715 said:


> I've seen the hotel and airline websites do this, but it's a new one for frog sales what a scam.


Agreed, but If they can get James T. Kirk to do a commercial for them as Vic Ruutan (or however it's spelled)... I vow here and now to send them $1.00


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Coming 2015!!!

"A first from USA Frog"

Malibu Beach and Malibu Sands Azuerus

Does Barbie know about this Rick?

USA Frog Discoveries

"more awesomeness to come"


----------



## ZenMonkey

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm sorry but if they can live in my Malibu Dream House I'm buying some.


----------



## ivas

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"These statistically significant, genetically recessive combinations from our pure, throughbred, breeder frog parents make exquisite pets."

--As a real biologist, all I can say about this sentence is "wtf!?"


----------



## ZenMonkey

*Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog*

As a science dilettante I couldn't even get past the first three words. Statistically significant to WHAT? Is this an experiment? Are there control groups? Is this referencing a study? Or did they just throw darts (the pointy kind) at a page of sciencey words to throw together in order to impress people who probably have no business keeping darts (the squishy kind)?

(Sorry, I'm also a science snob.)


----------



## ColleenT

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ivas said:


> "These statistically significant, genetically recessive combinations from our pure, throughbred, breeder frog parents make exquisite pets."
> 
> --As a real biologist, all I can say about this sentence is "wtf!?"


Thoroughbred is a breed of horse. PUREBRED is what they should have said.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

what they said was "Throughbred". which is not even a word...


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Charlie Q said:


> what they said was "Throughbred". which is not even a word...


Would you expect anything more from them?!? Its just funny, many members on here have bred TENS OF THOUSANDS azureus and they never seemed to get these "recessive" genes out of their stock. I guess it is just all the experience that the waeschers happen to have that most breeders here don't have!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZenMonkey said:


> Or did they just throw darts (the pointy kind) at a page of sciencey words to throw together in order to impress people who probably have no business keeping darts (the squishy kind)?


Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner


----------



## cowboy232350

Do we know if they also run wagafrogshop? I follow them on Instagram and saw that they post a video of multiple species all eating together. A person comments asking if you can mix and I replied with a few reasons why you should never mix. I was later told to "chill bro" and that it was just for the video so it was okay. Just was curious if this was one of their trade names that might of been missed.


----------



## cowboy232350

Just in case their comments disappear here is the chill response.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It appears those comments were written by an adult who can spell.

That leaves Rick out


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



cowboy232350 said:


> Do we know if they also run wagafrogshop? I follow them on Instagram and saw that they post a video of multiple species all eating together. A person comments asking if you can mix and I replied with a few reasons why you should never mix. I was later told to "chill bro" and that it was just for the video so it was okay. Just was curious if this was one of their trade names that might of been missed.


Don't think it is them, unless they moved to Hong Kong, (We aren't that lucky). I found the facebook for wagafrog, and contact number is +852 number (Hong Kong), and the map on Facebook was in asia and some comments from people were in kanji or Chinese...something 

I thought you were chill and had good point about cross contamination though


----------



## Judy S

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

E.Rogue...you have just too much fun with this thread...some people read the comic page every day...but you look forward to the newest post on DFW and its list of characters....


----------



## reptiles12

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sometimes when I'm bored I will literally take their number and call it 10 times and leave the most obnoxious voicemails and just talk about how they will never be successful with their piss-poor business lol


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They are not the same company, but Waga is definitely another pseudo-science slinging shop. They posted something on a facebook group a while back about their cultures that seemed like total BS and I challenged them on it and asked what proof they had and they just deleted the post. 

They keep posting about their "100% natural" media with "no chemicals". Straight up chemo-phobia promoting stupidity. Dihydrogen monoxide is a chemical. I'd bet that this is methyl paraben fear-mongering despite all worries about that having been debunked numerous times over

Also, to address their comment towards you, how are they not going to get sick? They do realize the idiocy of that statement, right? By that logic you could say "hey lets stick 20 kids in a room with one that has chicken pox... but if its just for a few minutes to take a picture, nobody else will get sick"

aaaand that's all I have to say about them.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



reptiles12 said:


> Sometimes when I'm bored I will literally take their number and call it 10 times and leave the most obnoxious voicemails and just talk about how they will never be successful with their piss-poor business lol


I honestly don't see how that is very constructive...


----------



## cowboy232350

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charlie Q

Oh yeah. Dihydrogen monoxide will KILL you! 

...if you are completely immersed in it and it fills your lungs. It's called drowning.


----------



## reptiles12

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> I honestly don't see how that is very constructive...


It wasn't constructive whatsoever


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Now that they've quit selling crossed morphs (again), one has to wonder how they will unload all they're frankenfrogs.

Many of them looked very similar to recognised locales.

Buyer beware ...

Additionally, if anyone knows who the person is that has bought 125+ frogs from them please PM me. This is a frogger I seriously want to avoid.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Additionally, if anyone knows who the person is that has bought 125+ frogs from them please PM me. This is a frogger I seriously want to avoid.



It is most likely a pet shop... So, know your breeder's breeder...


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> It is most likely a pet shop... So, know your breeder's breeder...


Wise words... 

That's just another reason why I like to know as much as I can about my frog's lineage.

John


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I don`t know, I`m probably wrong here but every time I read those reviews I can`t help but believe they`re bogus.
Read some of the reviews from our vendor feedback page and then read some of theirs.

How many of their reviews say how "awesome" the frogs are and how "big" they are.
All the reviews just seem to be childish...like everything else there.

Maybe just wishful thinking


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Additionally, if anyone knows who the person is that has bought 125+ frogs from them please PM me.


I think his name is Rick.....


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh brother .....



USAFrog.com website said:


> Our frogs have big guns!
> The forearm (i.e., lower front arm and wrist) is a true indicator of quality, strength, beauty, and health.
> •	A TERRIFIC way to know if a frog is quality or not is by the forearm and wrist mass. If you see any frog for sale out there that lacks a full, strong looking forearm and wrist, buy with caution.
> •	Frog condition, care and/or genetics, good or bad, is visible in forearm/wrist mass. A quality frog has a full forearm and wrist, and EVERYBODY, novice and expert alike can see it.
> Note: A 2-3 month old frog is a baby and too young for retail sale, yet a tone of people sell the 2-3 month or "well started" froglet to retail pet customers. Baby frogs have baby arms. Baby arms have baby muscles. Compare a baby child–their arms are typically bulky, but they have baby muscles. Other than an obvious spindly leg development problem some of the frogs out there have, a baby frog arm is too young to reveal muscle tone indicative of quality. Consequently, a lot of frog sellers out there prefer to sell their frogs as babies before their poor quality becomes visible.
> •	The safest guarantee of a GREAT frog is shopping for a frog at least 6 mos. or older with great guns! These frogs live well into their teens and buying at half a year is insurance for you long term.
> Can't all frogs be fattened up to cure the arm weakness? NO! Underfed and/or under-supplemented frogs can be fattened up, but their forearms won't fatten much. Also consider, there is a lot of inbreeding for line longevity, e.g., "This Line" and "That Line", is a warning you may be buying an inbred wimpy frog. If the genetics of the frog prevents strong forearm/wrist mass, and inbreeding (line-breeding) never helps, then pass it up for that reason. Of course, the forearm/wrist conformation will differ slightly by variety where some frogs have thick upper and lower (forearm) arms, but EVERY frog you buy should have that strong forearm and wrist look.
> 
> EACH AND EVERY frog we sell is a TOG GUN™ frog. They all have awesome forearm and wrist mass! Guaranteed! ALL frogs we sold in the past do indeed have the big guns, but now we use the brand to say so!! Sure, you can find and buy a frog with thin arms, but you can't do it here!
> 
> We are rebranding all our retail frogs (6 mos. and up) to TOP GUN frogs! We do so to provoke comparisons with the competition-we want to arm wrestle!
> (Note: We will be updating some of our pics to better show the arm mass of all of the frogs we offer for sale. Our pics will better repesent the TOP GUN frog quality we offer each and every time!)


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have just stopped even going to their webpage. Anyone who believes their website mumbo jumbo deserves to get ripped off by them. Any smart consumer researches their product and seller before purchase. I wouldn't just go out and drop a few hundred dollars without research first. I'm sorry but they have got to be struggling at this point. In a short period of time they will be gone.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Top Gun Frogs....

Well we can all go home now.

I can safely say without a shadow of a doubt that is the most asinine, ridiculous thing I have ever read ANYWHERE, and that`s saying alot

I don`t know if I should laugh, cry or bark at the moon.

Of coarse they to put the ole trademark on Top Gun.

EDIT, by the way Rick...it`s Top Gun not Tog Gun


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You know what would be horribly ironic? If they are struggling with spindly leg 

It appears that not only have they trademarked TOP GUN, but also TOG GUN. I wonder what TOG GUN means

John


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

More ridiculousness from Mr. Phenotype:

Frog Group Compatibility


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> You know what would be horribly ironic? If they are struggling with spindly leg


Well I guess they would be trademarked as Girly Man frogs


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Crap. Why did I click the link? I hate that site...

John


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> You know what would be horribly ironic? If they are struggling with spindly leg
> 
> It appears that not only have they trademarked TOP GUN, but also TOG GUN. I wonder what TOG GUN means
> 
> John


"It's the good advice that you just didn't take
Who would've thought... it figures ..."


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> Crap. Why did I click the link? I hate that site...
> 
> John


I don't hate it anymore. In fact, I find it quite entertaining


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> I don't hate it anymore. In fact, I find it quite entertaining


It was entertaining, but then I passed that stage... Its a cycle really...

John


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> You know what would be horribly ironic? If they are struggling with spindly leg


I would be less funny if they had bothered to realize that spindly leg is pretty much a thing of the past... 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> I would be less funny if they had bothered to realize that spindly leg is pretty much a thing of the past...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Might not be for them, based on how they respond to other's advise...

John


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Everywhere on the website it's "competitor this, competitor that." Frogging is not a damn competition. I find it entertaining to a point but there is a fine line between it and anger. They mark everyone here with a bad name, and whether people know that isn't true or not isn't the point. I've never seen such resistance in my life over a perfectly good hobby with great standing values on pure genetics, lineage, and information, not to mention how much outreach many of you provide to newer people. I sincerely don't get them. I don't get what the fight is about. I don't get why frogging is a competition in their eyes. It isn't about the money or flipping..that's what makes this hobby great.


----------



## Dimond

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have been reading through this thread and I wonder-are there any genetic diseases in dart frogs? I ask because I know some varieties of Ball Pythons have a neurological condition connected to particular morphs. Seeing as how they threw the morphs in a genetic blender and pressed pulse, I highly doubt that they are healthy. Also, the reasons for morphs in snakes are (1) money
and(2) the natural color is seen as 'boring'. Since they are working with the most diversely colored amphibians on the planet, there only pursuit is the almighty dollar.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Alexmenke92 said:


> It isn't about the money or flipping..that's what makes this hobby great.


That's why you and many other's don't get them. It seems to be "only" about the money, and trying to turn this into a big payday.

Having worked in the corporate world for most of my life I am not surprised. These are they types of people who would kick a puppy into the gutter to pick up a dropped dollar bill.

The other common denominator tends to be outsized egos, and the complete inability to learn or take constructive criticism.

DFW is going to play this out to the end. I take some solace in the fact that they picked just about the worst animal to apply this strategy to (did I mention the egos?). There will never be a mass market for $40 and up amphibians. The price of entry is too high for the "hermit crab at the beach souvenier shop" type impulse purchases.

They should have jumped into designer PacMan frogs and tried to work out a supply chain agreement with Petco or Petsmart....


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Alexmenke92 said:


> Everywhere on the website it's "competitor this, competitor that." Frogging is not a damn competition. I find it entertaining to a point but there is a fine line between it and anger. They mark everyone here with a bad name, and whether people know that isn't true or not isn't the point. I've never seen such resistance in my life over a perfectly good hobby with great standing values on pure genetics, lineage, and information, not to mention how much outreach many of you provide to newer people. I sincerely don't get them. I don't get what the fight is about. I don't get why frogging is a competition in their eyes. It isn't about the money or flipping..that's what makes this hobby great.



That about say`s it all right there folks


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I love how they spin everything. Anything that can explain the fact that their business is failing is their version of knowledge.
Our frogs are bulkier and we don't sell frogs that are under 6 months is to a new person a plausible excuse. We know that the reason they sell frogs over 6 months is because they CAN'T sell them at any age. No one buys from them.
To Rick that doesn't matter, I will just make up some random BS and make it sound like I'm just better than everyone else.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> A lot of customers have asked us if we will be attending any trade shows in the future. In the past the answer was “no” as we concentrated on our business plan. Now, after a solid year of growth, we are happy to say we will be attending a few trade shows. We will always bring a large array of frogs to choose from and deliver all pre-orders for those who wish to avoid shipping.
> 
> We talk a lot about quality, and our TOP GUN™ frogs (all of them) are the best testament of what we mean. Thus, every show will be an opportunity for you to see and buy the top quality we offer. No doubt you will immediately notice, just as all of our customers have, our frogs are not only well cared for and top quality, they are a true frog value!
> 
> Come see for yourself what quality from USA Frog is all about. Each and every frog we will offer will always be captive bred and born, as well as raised from the egg by us.
> 
> See you soon!
> 
> November 8-9, 2014 (4 tables of frogs! Pre-order now to lock in on price, choose Local/Free shipping andpick up at the show!)
> Repticon, Atlanta, Georgia


O'rly!

Please, go say Hi. Ask questions. Lots of questions.

Seriously, this is the perfect opportunity to go POLITELY ask the hard questions they refuse to answer.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Does anyone know if there will be other frog vendors at that show? Hopefully there will be at least a few to save the unsuspecting newbies who are bound to buy something from DFW.

John


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hey Rick,

There`s a great bunch of froggers up here in the North East.
Why not try White Plains?

You can tell us all about your Tog Gun frogs


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Hey Rick,
> 
> There`s a great bunch of froggers up here in the North East.
> Why not try White Plains?
> 
> You can tell us all about your Tog Gun frogs


I'd make the trip down from MA for that


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> Does anyone know if there will be other frog vendors at that show? Hopefully there will be at least a few to save the unsuspecting newbies who are bound to buy something from DFW.
> 
> John


The vendors are listed on their website. 

That being said, please do not harass any members that are going to be there and push someone them to go talk to these idiots if they are not comfortable doing it. (this isn't directed at anyone in particular... just a friendly reminder)


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Man I just found this thread. And went to their website for the first time. I had to hold a cup to my ear as my brain oozed out of it as I was browsing around the site. The group frogging thing really upset me. I'm a zookeeper, and consider myself relatively well informed about most of the animals I take care of, and I'd never consider actively encouraging people to do mixed spp. exhibits, unless I was absolutely sure of their expertise in the field. Totally irresponsible. But, that doesn't seem to be anything new for these guys, from what I've been reading.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Oh brother .....


This is what happens when you try to base a business model off your Netflix queue 

Oh and we apparently discourage group rearing because our frogs are antisocial, where as they raise theirs to be social and fun??? ...Wow, I'd love to see the "science" behind that. 

I imagine it is based on the famous "ass/hat equation" in quantum mechanics that describes how many bunnies or other objects can be held in a state of quantum superposition, then pulled from a deep dark place. 

Limp wristed and antisocial frogs... Yet 2 more conspiracies that are apparently being perpetrated on us. Everybody put your tinfoil hats on, and thank Rick for saving us from the shadow froggers... Thanks Rick!!!


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

From what I can tell, the other frog people at that particular Repticon are: Amphinity Frogs, Soul Frogs, The Blue Frog Company, our resident idiots, and a wholesale viv supply company. I know nothing about any of them, present company notwithstanding.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> From what I can tell, the other frog people at that particular Repticon are: Amphinity Frogs, Soul Frogs, The Blue Frog Company, our resident idiots, and a wholesale viv supply company. I know nothing about any of them, present company notwithstanding.


Nice, so there will be a good selection of darts available. Up here in the pacific northwest, we don't have many vendors selling frogs, mostly just one dedicated to them. I was worried that there would be only DFW to choose from!

John


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Its a real shame they are not coming to Repticon Tampa... I sure would love to ask them a boat load of questions.


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



SDK said:


> That's why you and many other's don't get them. It seems to be "only" about the money, and trying to turn this into a big payday.
> 
> Having worked in the corporate world for most of my life I am not surprised. These are they types of people who would kick a puppy into the gutter to pick up a dropped dollar bill.
> 
> The other common denominator tends to be outsized egos, and the complete inability to learn or take constructive criticism.
> 
> DFW is going to play this out to the end. I take some solace in the fact that they picked just about the worst animal to apply this strategy to (did I mention the egos?). There will never be a mass market for $40 and up amphibians. The price of entry is too high for the "hermit crab at the beach souvenier shop" type impulse purchases.
> 
> They should have jumped into designer PacMan frogs and tried to work out a supply chain agreement with Petco or Petsmart....


According to their website that's the purpose is to get price so low that every chain pet store has dart frogs.. I guess if they can do it all the power to them.. We already have fish and reptile farms who pump out millions of animals for chain and local pet stores every year.. Will it appeal to the purest dart frog hobbiest? Of course not but,if they are selling heathy animals to the masses that most likely will never be breed who is it hurting?


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Will it appeal to the purest dart frog hobbiest? Of course not but,if they are selling heathy animals to the masses that most likely will never be breed who is it hurting?


What indication is there that they are selling healthy animals? Oh yeah, the "rule of wrist". Unless the frogs are sterile, some of them likely WILL breed, and some of those animals will certainly find their way into our "purist" market.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> What indication is there that they are selling healthy animals? Oh yeah, the "rule of wrist". Unless the frogs are sterile, some of them likely WILL breed, and some of those animals will certainly find their way into our "purist" market.


This!

Also, having been in the African Cichlid hobby for 30 years I have seen what people here are fearing already happen. People lie and say that the fish they got from the Petco "mixed african" tanks are F1 progeny. People make mistakes. Misrepresented animals find thier way into the mainstream. It is almost unavoidable.


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

My local PetCo here just got in some darts.....they were being kept in terrible conditions. Was going to say something to the associate, but he left and didn't come back after I asked a few questions. Just saying though. If it can happen up here in Alaska, they're gonna start showing up everywhere. They were most likely not from DFW, but you never know.


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> What indication is there that they are selling healthy animals? Oh yeah, the "rule of wrist". Unless the frogs are sterile, some of them likely WILL breed, and some of those animals will certainly find their way into our "purist" market.


What indication is there that they aren't? Hear say or have you personally ordered from them sick animals? It is of my opinion that the people who purchase from them or their pet store stock WON'T reproduce since most if not all who purchase this way won't set them up properly or know how to care for the tads even if they do breed.. Also consider the average life of a captive dart is approx. 1yr. Due to improper care, importation,stress, etc..


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Isn't their new TOPGUN logo a copyright infringement on the TOPGUN movie and it's logo? Maybe someone should report it


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Also consider the average life of a captive dart is approx. 1yr. Due to improper care, importation,stress, etc..


Wait what??? Where does that figure come from?


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If I had the extra free labor available that Rick has, I would probably go buy myself a sweet corvette with all the money my minions would be saving me.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> What indication is there that they aren't? Hear say or have you personally ordered from them sick animals?


They could be healthy, but I wouldn't bet on it. They give advice and invent psuedo-science that encourages sales, but conflicts with current husbandry knowledge. They present proven "non-issues" as problematic while at the same time ignoring and minimizing actual health concerns. They raise frogs puppy-farm style on a huge scale, while at the same time claiming that they keep track of every frogs age down to the week. They advise overcrowding and have stated that their warehouse is immune to disease as the founder frogs were healthy. They make outrageous claims, change their stance on issues, and have preyed on the uninformed as their target demographic. Responsible breeders that understand health and husbandry and take proper precautions aren't immune to occasional disease. How much more so a company that shows a constant disregard for facts and tailors all their arguments to compliment the bottom line? If they have healthy frogs, it's against all odds and can't last long.



big_frog said:


> It is of my opinion that the people who purchase from them or their pet store stock WON'T reproduce since most if not all who purchase this way won't set them up properly or know how to care for the tads even if they do breed..


We're talking about tincs and auratus here. Do you know the secret to breeding these frogs? Put a male and female together. They are remarkably easy to breed and most people get froglets without trying before they know it. I get volunteer froglets all the time without any special care. If these clowns can breed frogs, anyone can. 



big_frog said:


> Also consider the average life of a captive dart is approx. 1yr. Due to improper care, importation,stress, etc..


While there is no way to prove/disprove this statement I suspect the average of a captive bred frog is well over that. I've seen people with borderline neglectful care get a decade out of a pair. Even if it were true then that means half the frogs they sell reach breeding age which, with shifty mixed lineage issues, is the problem.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Another great post Jeremy! I wish I could say you took the words right out of my mouth, but you stated it much better than I could have. 

John


----------



## Dart girl

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Every time I check in on this thread there is
SomEthing more rediculous than the last time. Top Gun frogs. Geez


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Celtic Aaron

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TarantulaGuy said:


> My local PetCo here just got in some darts.....they were being kept in terrible conditions. Was going to say something to the associate, but he left and didn't come back after I asked a few questions. Just saying though. If it can happen up here in Alaska, they're gonna start showing up everywhere. They were most likely not from DFW, but you never know.


My constant complaining of their horrible conditions got the darts removed from our local "chain" pet store  If your going to keep them, keep them right...not at 85 under heat lamps with 40 % humidity.


----------



## ZenMonkey

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> While there is no way to prove/disprove this statement I suspect the average of a captive bred frog is well over that.


If big_frog is providing such surprising statistics to us, he should have the chance to provide evidence of his claim. A solid citation would be proof enough.

So, as others have been wondering, big_frog, could you please post the source of your claim that the average lifespan of a dart frog in captivity is one year? 
("I read once," "Someone said," and "in my experience" are not credible sources. Well, the last one might be, but only if it's, say, Ed.)


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZenMonkey said:


> If big_frog is providing such surprising statistics to us, he should have the chance to provide evidence of his claim. A solid citation would be proof enough.
> 
> So, as others have been wondering, big_frog, could you please post the source of your claim that the average lifespan of a dart frog in captivity is one year?
> ("I read once," "Someone said," and "in my experience" are not credible sources. Well, the last one might be, but only if it's, say, Ed.)


I'll pull up that stat for you zen monkey. Remember it's an average taking in mortality,improper,care,transport loss,even tads that die before total morph.


----------



## fieldnstream

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If they are actually going to show up in Atlanta I'll make sure to be there to give them a nice dose of southern hospitality


----------



## Dimond

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

'Top Gun' frogs, huh? So these frogs are training to be fighter pilots and have latent homoeroticism? Seriously though, how in the hell would you test the arm strength of a 2 inch frog? Or have they switched to forgs?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Companion frogs never leave their wingman!


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> I'll pull up that stat for you zen monkey. Remember it's an average taking in mortality,improper,care,transport loss,even tads that die before total morph.


I'd like to see it as well. Was it peer reviewed? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Have you seen that commercial where all the idiot teenagers hide behind the chainsaws instead of getting into the running car......


So now they're rolling out a new marketing scheme, naming a bunch of unknown frogs, after several states and calling them AMERICAN TOP GUN FROGS.

News flash Ricky, you can rebrand your garbage as many times as you like, it still won't sell.

I'm sure mr Phenotype will be complaining about how un-american we are in due time.

Thanks for the laughs as always Rick. :facepalm:


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

won't that confuse other customers that buy all these frogs.
I mean it would be really frustrating to not be able to find your pina colada chocolate dipped tinc on their sight

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ok, so I just checked KS like I like to do sometimes and I noticed a NEW offering from US dart frog --- AMERICAN DART FROGS! The current available frogs include ALASKA, CONNETICUT, NEW MEXICO, NEW YORK AND MONTANA. They also state (no pun intended) that these frogs do great in groups and can be mixed. If someone else can post more info on this that will be great. 

I will not check their site for myself, thank you.

John


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> Ok, so I just checked KS like I like to do sometimes and I noticed a NEW offering from US dart frog --- AMERICAN DART FROGS! The current available frogs include ALASKA, CONNETICUT, NEW MEXICO, NEW YORK AND MONTANA. They also state (no pun intended) that these frogs do great in groups and can be mixed. If someone else can post more info on this that will be great.
> 
> I will not check their site for myself, thank you.
> 
> John


These all appear to be mixed morph mutts. It appears that now they are trying to rebrand them and sneak them into the hobby by not identifying them as designer frogs. 

Doesn't surprise me... they had to get rid of this bad inventory somehow.


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ridiculous! Who is thier target group? As I read their descriptions its laughable. Is it a joke?


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Top gun frogs, I wonder which one is "goose", " maverick ", "Iceman"," merlin","Jester", and "Viper"!! Uh oh I may have just created a ton of new lines of frogs for them! But for real, isn't top gun trademarked by the movie company already?!? One day these guys will make a mistake that will doom them. I hope!


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It is, but I think they are "safe" still. This was discussed a while back when they first introduced their Sunkist frogs 

Ok, I did it again... I went to their site and found this. then promptly closed the tab.



USA Frog (or whatever they are now) said:


> TOP GUN™ Signature Frogs
> Similar to the CLASSIC pet dart frogs, the Signature lineages we offer are SAFE® TOP GUN™ frogs from classical varieties first domesticated years ago, and lines bred between families for specifc traits. We breed and raise them in captivity to maintain the classic lines & promote longevity by only offering you the best of the best in quality! Like all our frogs, the Signature Lineage dart frogs are covered by our federally registered SAFE brand. ALWAYS top quality and bred for strength, health, and beauty, because frogs are all we do.
> Buy TOP GUN™!


It just kills me how little regard the have for science. It just blows me away.

John

EDIT: it appears that SAFE is now their registered trademark. GREAT.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> It is, but I think they are "safe" still. This was discussed a while back when they first introduced their Sunkist frogs
> 
> Ok, I did it again... I went to their site and found this. then promptly closed the tab.
> 
> 
> 
> It just kill me how little regard the have for science. It just blows me away.
> 
> John
> 
> EDIT: it appears that SAFE is now their registered trademark. GREAT.


Even taking the lack of correct science out of it (how do you line breed between families). The paragraph doesn't even make any sense....


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I can safely say without a shadow of a doubt that is the most asinine, ridiculous thing I have ever read ANYWHERE,


Make that the 2nd thing


----------



## pa.walt

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess they want to do like state coins. so far they have 4 state frogs. I am waiting for the pa. frogs to come out. then I will buy.
if you don't know what I'm talking about go to their ad on kingsnake posted in the last 2-3 days.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



pa.walt said:


> I guess they want to do like state coins. so far they have 4 state frogs. I am waiting for the pa. frogs to come out. then I will buy.
> if you don't know what I'm talking about go to their ad on kingsnake posted in the last 2-3 days.


Actually, its 5 states and I posted about it earlier today. Your just a bit late buddy

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> Actually, its 5 states and I posted about it earlier today. Your just a bit late buddy
> 
> John


They've actually got 19 States listed for their mutts.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



PDFanatic said:


> Top gun frogs, I wonder which one is "goose", " maverick ", "Iceman"," merlin","Jester", and "Viper"!! Uh oh I may have just created a ton of new lines of frogs for them! But for real, isn't top gun trademarked by the movie company already?!? One day these guys will make a mistake that will doom them. I hope!


They're all Goose, because he dies prematurely.

ZING.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> They've actually got 19 States listed for their mutts.


...OK so following Rick's (IMO), asinine and illogical progression of thought processes from Sunkist, Malibu, Top Gun to the 50 states; I predict the next pop culture marketing ploy will be... Drum roll please!!!!

...50 shades of grey hybrids!

Seriously, how many colors of frogs can you cross before they all come out grey? ...It's rhetorical Rick.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> They've actually got 19 States listed for their mutts.


Well, I didn't get far enough into their site it read the american dart frogs section. I'm proud of myself for that! 

John


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

watch how we portray ourself.....this isnt a science "only" deal 

we keep stuff for fun..if not, you might find our hobby taken away to dry up illegal importation, interstate commerce yadda yadda..to save and protect from chytrid in the USA....we see that effort dont we?

chihuahuas are not wolves..not everyone wants wolves, yet we pound a frog breeder for trying to improve "pet grade" frogs

new people learn as they go...I still say have a frog show..quantify quality.........can you select breed temperment? you can in other animals or is it nature or nurture?

I don't know...but in time truth shows up in the end....


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> watch how we portray ourself.....this isnt a science "only" deal
> 
> we keep stuff for fun..if not, you might find our hobby taken away to dry up illegal importation, interstate commerce yadda yadda..to save and protect from chytrid in the USA....we see that effort dont we?
> 
> chihuahuas are not wolves..not everyone wants wolves, yet we pound a frog breeder for trying to improve "pet grade" frogs
> 
> new people learn as they go...I still say have a frog show..quantify quality.........can you select breed temperment? you can in other animals or is it nature or nurture?
> 
> I don't know...but in time truth shows up in the end....


What are trying to say? I'm honestly having a hard time reading your post, could you try and state it a bit more clearly please 

John


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

whats wrong with these guys trying to breed a "better" frog? for pets?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> whats wrong with these guys trying to breed a "better" frog? for pets?


They're not breeding a better frog. Don't fall prey to absurd justifications they present for doing what they're doing. As for what's wrong with what they're trying to do, we've been over that quite a few times here already. Your question has already been answered dozens of times.


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> chihuahuas are not wolves..not everyone wants wolves, yet we pound a frog breeder for trying to improve "pet grade" frogs
> 
> whats wrong with these guys trying to breed a "better" frog? for pets?


without going back to the start of this, in a nut shell this is what they are doing..

taking the chihuahuas and breeding it to the wolf and selling offsprings to anyone unknowingly that the muts are poluting the genetics.

so soon all the chihuaves and wolhuas will be everywhere and serious people in this hobby won't know if the species they are breeding carries mixed genetics.. 
so people wanting one or the other won't have a choice anymore.

then in a near future the only way to get pure lines of species if they aren't whiped out of existance will be to get Wild caught since the hobby frogs will be tainted..

does this make sense to you.. ??


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> whats wrong with these guys trying to breed a "better" frog? for pets?


If all they are doing is trying to create a "better" frog, then what's with all the inaccuracies, misinformation, psuedo-science, and out-and-out lies? They constantly tailor the facts to come to the conclusions they want to present and ignore any proven science that doesn't fit with their agenda. Honestly, does that sound like somebody who is trying to create a "better" anything? 

Put another way, if you're in a room with a person who genuinely wants to better the hobby, and a person that will straight-up lie to make a sale, can they be the same person. I say no. 

...but support who you like. You will get the hobby you deserve.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> If all they are doing is trying to create a "better" frog, then what's with all the inaccuracies, misinformation, psuedo-science, and out-and-out lies? They constantly tailor the facts to come to the conclusions they want to present and ignore any proven science that doesn't fit with their agenda. Honestly, does that sound like somebody who is trying to create a "better" anything?
> 
> Put another way, if you're in a room with a person who genuinely wants to better the hobby, and a person that will straight-up lie to make a sale, can they be the same person. I say no.
> 
> ...but support who you like. You will get the hobby you deserve.



I ask you WHAT IS THEIR AGENDA?


I talked to DFW, they ARE in business to make a buck, they want to breed more attractive, healthier frogs with better temperament...AKA frogs that don't need to be on amphibian death match if mixed.

I was lied to by a “reputable” sponsor vendor here, their goal was clear, sell me a lower quality ”lighting hood” at a bigger profit margin over what was better for me. They since have made it good.
Many a car sales person will tell you what you want to hear....but that does not make the F150 a bad truck.





yeloowtang said:


> Without going back to the start of this, in a nutshell this is what they are doing.
> 
> taking the Chihuahuas and breeding it to the wolf and selling offspring’s to anyone unknowingly that the muts are poluting the genetics.
> 
> so soon all the chihuaves and wolhuas will be everywhere and serious people in this hobby won't know if the species they are breeding carries mixed genetics..
> so people wanting one or the other won't have a choice anymore.
> 
> then in a near future the only way to get pure lines of species if they aren't whiped out of existance will be to get Wild caught since the hobby frogs will be tainted..
> 
> does this make sense to you.. ??


my metafore was to say someone took wild dogs "wolves" and bred the pleathera of dogs we know today. Chihuahuas, Dobermans, Sheepdogs, etc…

With the mentality here they, the breeders would have been vilified. at what point does a "mixed up" animal become a "pure bred"? Crossing to see what happens and if its repeatable is what has gone on it animal husbandry for millennia.

There is debate on morphs in the frog world.....I posted a question on this a while back yet NO-ONE would comment....so Ill ask it here... How many frogs were in the "1995 Leuc import"? And if you keep breeding that group. Does it not cause homozygosity? In nature how many dart morphs live in the same Microhabitat? How stable is known morphs? DFW are laymen not educated in science “jargon” I suggested working with a University biology department on research projects and pointed them to whom in their state and how to get studies going. 




ZookeeperDoug said:


> They're not breeding a better frog. Don't fall prey to absurd justifications they present for doing what they're doing. As for what's wrong with what they're trying to do, we've been over that quite a few times here already. Your question has already been answered dozens of times.


Its not wrong to make a living selling frogs...Its not wrong to experiment on trying to breed a better frog.

the debate breaks down to results. hence why I said to quantify quality. till someone has a frog show and you can put a frog out there BETTER then you get street cred

IF they are guilty at anything it is branding....I would go another way..and suggested how to do that. They have made mistakes.

Everyone’s goal here should be to HELP them get better at what they do, even if you do not agree in crossing morphs and calling them Kaleidoscope frogs that glow in the dark, not everyone is into keeping darts to “save the worlds dart frogs” not going to some herp show to cause trouble.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I dunno if rick ever realized this, but basically since he is mixing these mutts. He is creating a much larger demand for F-0-W.C. frogs which will be imported. Then we will at least know that the frogs are of pure lineage. So Rick's "Scheme" and "Plan" that his frogs are going to help with reducing wild caught frogs has COMPLETELY FREAKIN BACKFIRED. The guy has to sit back and take a look at his marketing scheme. Now not only is he creating a larger demand for w.c. frogs, but he is making anyone selling a f-1,2,3 animal more inept to keeping very detailed lineage on them. Thanks a ton RICKY...I think he at about ten too many hits of acid back in the 70's


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I ask you WHAT IS THEIR AGENDA?
> 
> 
> I talked to DFW, they ARE in business to make a buck, they want to breed more attractive, healthier frogs with better temperament...AKA frogs that don't need to be on amphibian death match if mixed.
> 
> I was lied to by a “reputable” sponsor vendor here, their goal was clear, sell me a lower quality ”lighting hood” at a bigger profit margin over what was better for me. They since have made it good.
> Many a car sales person will tell you what you want to hear....but that does not make the F150 a bad truck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my metafore was to say someone took wild dogs "wolves" and bred the pleathera of dogs we know today. Chihuahuas, Dobermans, Sheepdogs, etc…
> 
> With the mentality here they, the breeders would have been vilified. at what point does a "mixed up" animal become a "pure bred"? Crossing to see what happens and if its repeatable is what has gone on it animal husbandry for millennia.
> 
> There is debate on morphs in the frog world.....I posted a question on this a while back yet NO-ONE would comment....so Ill ask it here... How many frogs were in the "1995 Leuc import"? And if you keep breeding that group. Does it not cause homozygosity? In nature how many dart morphs live in the same Microhabitat? How stable is known morphs? DFW are laymen not educated in science “jargon” I suggested working with a University biology department on research projects and pointed them to whom in their state and how to get studies going.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not wrong to make a living selling frogs...Its not wrong to experiment on trying to breed a better frog.
> 
> the debate breaks down to results. hence why I said to quantify quality. till someone has a frog show and you can put a frog out there BETTER then you get street cred
> 
> IF they are guilty at anything it is branding....I would go another way..and suggested how to do that. They have made mistakes.
> 
> Everyone’s goal here should be to HELP them get better at what they do, even if you do not agree in crossing morphs and calling them Kaleidoscope frogs that glow in the dark, not everyone is into keeping darts to “save the worlds dart frogs” not going to some herp show to cause trouble.


That time has come and gone. They have passed on all the advise that was offered to them. Now they have launched a smear campaign against the hobby to further their self righteous nonsense.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are one of their very few buyers and now must prove the purchase you made was worth it.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are one of their very few buyers and now must prove the purchase you made was worth it.


I was thinking along the same lines as I was reading his post. The factual inaccuracies, poor examples, straw man arguments and preachy tone all point to some sort of unspoken agenda....


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

you would be wrong......just don't like bullies


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> you would be wrong......just don't like bullies


You are wrong, we don't like liars, cheaters and scam artists. So take your qualms elsewhere.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> you would be wrong......just don't like bullies


How are we bullies to them. They got there founding stock from people we know personally and then they go and bad mouth them just to make themselves look better. This is the worst way to conduct a business. They have made a point to be where they are. Many of use have also spoke with them. I'll say that my emails from them gave no insight to proper business practice. It was more of a FU I do things my way and thats why they are right.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

suggesting peeps go to herp shows to give these people greef...


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> suggesting peeps go to herp shows to give these people greef...


Not to give grief, but to expose them for what they are.
CON-Artists


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Giving them grief is your words. Members here said ask them the hard questions and to show proof of their science.....
A bully would be walking in saying you guys are A-clowns and flipping there table. Many here would like to do that but that would be uncouth.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Bully Card: When your other arguments fail, resort to personal attacks to deflect attention to your own inability to form a rebuttal.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> Giving them grief is your words. Members here said ask them the hard questions and to show proof of their science.....
> A bully would be walking in saying you guys are A-clowns and flipping there table. Many here would like to do that but that would be uncouth.


You're right... nobody here would be flipping tables and causing real problems. In my years in the hobby I have only seen a few bad eggs that I think would actually be capable of that. However, I am 100% certain that none of those people care enough about this hobby to even be involved in this thread. All of the people here that really care would actually walk up and try to have a civil conversation. There would be no bullying. There would be hard questions and requests for facts.

So, to anyone that is interpreting the "I'd give them a piece of my mind" wink wink nudge nudge posts as actual threats... please understand that you are reading it wrong. The wide majority of this community is passionate and helpful, not fanatical and hurtful. Those that you see speaking the most in this thread ARE trying to help. Maybe they are being sarcastic/passive aggressive here and there, but I can assure you that I read this forum more than anyone and none of these people would ever condone anything truly negative towards this company. (ok, except maybe when they say they hope they go out of business. They probably mean that one.)


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I ask you WHAT IS THEIR AGENDA?
> 
> 
> I talked to DFW, they ARE in business to make a buck, they want to breed more attractive, healthier frogs with better temperament...AKA frogs that don't need to be on amphibian death match if mixed.


The agenda I'm referring to was their intention to exploit what they saw as an untapped niche in the hobby. They asked the same questions that everyone newly exposed to darts asks, namely, "Frog X is pretty, Frog Y is pretty, what would happen if I crossed them?" They assumed that they were the first ones to exploit this niche and didn't anticipate the reasons people would object. At a certain point they had sunk too much of an investment into the venture to back off and began fabricating lies to justify that agenda. Most egregious were the claims that mixing would relieve demands on wild populations, when even the slightest understanding of the situation reveals that it increases that demand. Recently they've decided that vigor is the new justification and that it's all been about creating a BETTER frog. You're the first person I've seen even try to define what "Better" means in that context. 

I've said it before, but here is how you know someone is lying to you...their facts constantly change, their justifications constantly change, but their conclusion never wavers. That has been DFW's approach from day 1.

Every company's agenda is to make a profit. It's the ethical compromises that they will make getting there that define them. 



MoCarp said:


> I was lied to by a “reputable” sponsor vendor here, their goal was clear, sell me a lower quality ”lighting hood” at a bigger profit margin over what was better for me. They since have made it good.
> 
> Many a car sales person will tell you what you want to hear....but that does not make the F150 a bad truck.


I would say that a vendor who lies to you is not a reputable sponsor. My suggestion would be to include those details in your review of the transaction in the Vendor Feedback section. People will appreciate being alerted to the facts and that vendor will experience an economic deterrent for dishonesty. Well, not everyone will appreciate it, some will see it as bullying and a few might even have already purchased lights for that price and not want to feel like they were taken. 

...But most people will see it for what it is; a genuine factual warning about a shady dealer from one member of a community to another.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I ask you WHAT IS THEIR AGENDA?
> 
> 
> I talked to DFW, they ARE in business to make a buck, they want to breed more attractive, healthier frogs with better temperament...AKA frogs that don't need to be on amphibian death match if mixed.
> 
> I was lied to by a “reputable” sponsor vendor here, their goal was clear, sell me a lower quality ”lighting hood” at a bigger profit margin over what was better for me. They since have made it good.
> Many a car sales person will tell you what you want to hear....but that does not make the F150 a bad truck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my metafore was to say someone took wild dogs "wolves" and bred the pleathera of dogs we know today. Chihuahuas, Dobermans, Sheepdogs, etc…
> 
> With the mentality here they, the breeders would have been vilified. at what point does a "mixed up" animal become a "pure bred"? Crossing to see what happens and if its repeatable is what has gone on it animal husbandry for millennia.
> 
> There is debate on morphs in the frog world.....I posted a question on this a while back yet NO-ONE would comment....so Ill ask it here... How many frogs were in the "1995 Leuc import"? And if you keep breeding that group. Does it not cause homozygosity? In nature how many dart morphs live in the same Microhabitat? How stable is known morphs? DFW are laymen not educated in science “jargon” I suggested working with a University biology department on research projects and pointed them to whom in their state and how to get studies going.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its not wrong to make a living selling frogs...Its not wrong to experiment on trying to breed a better frog.
> 
> the debate breaks down to results. hence why I said to quantify quality. till someone has a frog show and you can put a frog out there BETTER then you get street cred
> 
> IF they are guilty at anything it is branding....I would go another way..and suggested how to do that. They have made mistakes.
> 
> Everyone’s goal here should be to HELP them get better at what they do, even if you do not agree in crossing morphs and calling them Kaleidoscope frogs that glow in the dark, not everyone is into keeping darts to “save the worlds dart frogs” not going to some herp show to cause trouble.


All of this has been addressed many times in this thread, but here is another long ass post going over it all again...

Yes the agenda is to make money which isn't wrong in itself... It's the do anything/say anything how sleazy can we get used car salesman tactics, the fact that a large % of the hobby is against hybrids and morph mixing, and the fact they straight up lied hen they said "we will not mix species or varieties". I would also argue it is wrong to tell an entire community to go screw itself when they are against your form of experiments. You did get some good answers to your thread BTW. Some day to have any viable frogs in the hobby it may be necessary to mix but that is basically our option of last resort. New people coming in and forcing the option of last resort on us now against our will is understandably going to piss people off.

So yes the dog/wolf breeders philosophy is not popular here for frogs. The community has long been against that for our hobby. We don't want to be like the snake and leopard gecko or other hobbies that embraced or at least allowed hybrids to become accepted practice. That ship sailed for them a long ago, and if was going to buy a leo it would probabky be a super macksnow, and in that hobby that is fine...but not this one. I would not buy a tinc/auratus hybrid even if i thought it looked cool because i respect the community and their standards. 

Some people may have no problem with hybrids or mixed morphs but the community has spoken out against it and has every right to fight and try to keep that from becoming accepted practice. 

We want the frogs in the hobby to be a representable of their wild counterparts as possible. When I go to buy an Azureus I'd like to be reasonably confident that it won't throw cobalt/azureus mutts at some point. So far we have managed fairly well to keep that from becoming the norm in this hobby. 

We don't want things to be like the Leo hobby where even if we get an animal that looks looks like one from the wild that it might be het super macksnow x carrot tail x raptor franken gecko that gives birth to 14 different colored and patterened babies.

At some point we may not be able to stop this, but we've kept it in check pretty well IMO the 10 years I've been here, and we have every right to continue to so. It would be very difficult to have a large designer dart niche within the larger hobby without it negatives impacting the hobby as a whole. To many uninformed and/or unscrupulous people that will cause an avalanche when we start sliding down that slope... In fact it is happening now. DFW or whatever they call themselves is basically the start of the worst case scenario: Rapid change being perpetrated by people prone to sleazy tactics and outright lies with no respect for community standards/accepted practices.

Also here is really major point: Even if this is unavoidable at some point, do you really want the people who lied about doing it, and use the sleazy sales tactics to be the ones selling mixed animals next to normals? Those are not the people I would trust to pop the hobby's designer dart frog cherry.

Then there is all the BS/questionable info and pseudoscience.

So to summerize here is why we are against them.

1. They came into the hobby learned from us, saw how we did things and wanted things then basically told the entire community to go screw itself. So selfishness and lack of respect.

2. What they do effects us. They can't spread hybrid and/or mixed morph frogs while targeting the least informed portion of the market and not screw us over in multiple ways in the process.

3. The sleazy/dumb marketing BS... We have every right to tell people entering our hobby that is not acceptable to us and to get pissed when they do it anyway and prey on the least informed, usually the newbies. They set these people up for failure with questionable husbandry, anticommunity propaganda, BS psuedoscience and frogs that almost no one here wants to touch in a trade or sale. How would you like to find out all the frogs you got were considered tainted by the majority or at least a significant percentage of the community.

4. They are the people that lied to us and said they wouldn't do what they ended up doing
.. Even if designer frogs become common and accepted in the hobby at some point, why would you trust these people to sell you a frog? ...any frog. They feel what they do isn't just fine , but should be done, and they have showed a willingness to use sleazy tactics and out right lie. You'd have to be pretty gullible to not wonder if they aren't more then willing to mislabel something to get the sale.

Help them? ...For the most part people were pretty cool when they showed up. When they revealed their plans we had questions and concerns, but most still kept their cool. It wasn't till they basically told us to go screw ourselves, and then remove/distance themselves from the community to the point of having their forum account deleted, lied about the frog mixing and then revealed it that things really got ugly.

They burned their bridges and salted the earth behind them. To most here they are irredeemable. I honestly don't see how anyone who has read the many points made against them can not see them as the bad guy... even if that person is all for designer frogs.

Since when is A TRACK RECORD of sleazy sales tactics, lies, pseudoscience, propaganda and bad or at least questionable info not enough to be labeled the bad guy?

If what they've done up to now isn't enough to warrant that label in someone's mind, then I think that person has incredibly low standards.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have read every post on this thread, I am a "Show Me" kind of person.

I would love to see "standards" not just this or that frog morph is bred true, 

if there is no standard its just one persons words vs another.

If the goal of the "community" is preserving the wild PDFs then they better be standards. more documentation, inspection to stop contraban imports.
frogglets with papers....violate and lose the ability to sell frogs with papers.

I would hope health of the frogs raised is a top priority.

who doesn't want a bold, healthy, stunning long lived frogs that love being with other frogs?

its hard for me to see some Pseudoscientists calling the kettle black.

I worked hard for my education in biology, science & ethics run hand in hand.

I see frog sellers, vs frog sellers, I don't want hot pink tincs, but someone does. i don't want to be a tadpole churning machine ether

I have put over a year of research into keeping darts BEFORE I bought my 1st frogs.

has anyone ever took a tour of the DFW opperation?


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No because they won't let anyone take a tour. It is not seller vs seller. It is hobby vs frog farm without morals. Frogs are not dogs. If you have a single frog in a enclosure it will be just as happy. They do not have complex emotions such as loneliness. Most here only worry about the health of their frogs. DFW couldn't care less about theirs. They have even posted pictures of way to many frogs in a tank. To them frogs are a meal ticket nothing more. 
If you really did all that research then you would have known how the hobby feels about all this.
You point out you have a degree in biology so bring something to the table that proves what they are doing is best for the species or keep that piece of paper under your hat.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> if there is no standard its just one persons words vs another.


Actually this untrue. There is a standard and the standard is that the frogs are ideally to represent the wild type population at the time time of collection. While this has not been fully implemented the standard is animals that are as close to the wild type population as possible. This is why the recommendation for aberrations such as the hypomelanistic leucomelas is to breed them back into the regular population as opposed to directly selecting to produce them. 




MoCarp said:


> who doesn't want a bold, healthy, stunning long lived frogs that love being with other frogs?


In your next sentence you make an accusation at "pseudoscientists" but the sentence above that I've highlighted has an issue with pseudoscience..... 



MoCarp said:


> its hard for me to see some Pseudoscientists calling the kettle black.


Based on what proof?? You have yet to make a claim that is supported by any peer reviewed data so the pot is calling the kettle black. 



MoCarp said:


> I worked hard for my education in biology, science & ethics run hand in hand.


So science and ethics run hand in hand but ethics and business actions don't run hand in hand? I have to say that for a person with a bio degree your making some very unsound references such as the one I highlighted above here. 





MoCarp said:


> I have put over a year of research into keeping darts BEFORE I bought my 1st frogs.



So what? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> talked to DFW, they ARE in business to make a buck, they want to breed more attractive, healthier frogs with better temperament...AKA frogs that don't need to be on amphibian death match if mixed.


And what in their breeding plan indicates that they are going about this in a proper manner? 

You have a bio degree but appear to ignore or not understand the issues with outbreeding depression.... 

Crossing different populations of frogs does not 
1)provide any indication that the temperment of the frogs is going to be changed. 
2) provide a healthier frog in the long run..... 

When looking at things like tempermant changes, you need to consider that it takes more than 25-30 generations to begin to make significant changes in temperment and that is when there are clear markers to guide the selection.. 
So we're looking at decades before we can expect to see any significant changes in the behavioral biology of the frogs. This is also before we consider that in these situations other behaviors are at high risk of loss. Personally if they lost the parental care, I would lose interest in the the frogs.... 

4) they don't understand genetics which is clear by their own posts on the topics so being able to select for a subtle behavior is an issue... 






MoCarp said:


> my metafore was to say someone took wild dogs "wolves" and bred the pleathera of dogs we know today. Chihuahuas, Dobermans, Sheepdogs, etc…


Over thousands of years and not without significant issues including the loss of breeds over time. See for example The outcross that saved the Basset hound | Canis lupus hominis

With the mentality here they, the breeders would have been vilified. at what point does a "mixed up" animal become a "pure bred"? Crossing to see what happens and if its repeatable is what has gone on it animal husbandry for millennia.

The outcross that saved the Basset hound | Canis lupus hominis There is debate on morphs in the frog world.....I posted a question on this a while back yet NO-ONE would comment....so Ill ask it here... How many frogs were in the "1995 Leuc import"? And if you keep breeding that group. Does it not cause homozygosity?[/quote] 

Actually if we look at the time from 1992-1997 more than 1300 leucomelas were imported into the United States. There are multiple very indepth discussions on the issues on inbreeding/inbreeding depression and outbreeding depression. And the simple answer can easily be no depending on those working with the frogs managed them. As I noted above look up outbreeding depression.... 

The outcross that saved the Basset hound | Canis lupus hominis In nature how many dart morphs live in the same Microhabitat? How stable is known morphs? [/quote] 

Well for someone who has researched the frogs for a year you somehow missed a huge amount of information. More than I want to retype. I suggest google scholar and Lotters et al. 

As for not understanding science jargon, that is an excuse and justification. They chose to go and post what they view as correct interpretations of the so called jargon while refusing all attempts to educate themselves on those topics. All of that so called jargon has been defined and is readily available if not on here online. No excuse. 




MoCarp said:


> Its not wrong to make a living selling frogs...Its not wrong to experiment on trying to breed a better frog.


Its not wrong if you don't go about attempting to hide the evidence behind "pseudoscientific" jargon and refuse to educate one's self about what it really means. That is no better than scamming money from people by running a false seance..... 




MoCarp said:


> Everyone’s goal here should be to HELP them get better at what they do, even if you do not agree in crossing morphs and calling them Kaleidoscope frogs that glow in the dark, not everyone is into keeping darts to “save the worlds dart frogs” not going to some herp show to cause trouble.



You mean before or after they asked to be permanently banned and to have their accounts closed?? They chose to not only ignore the people who could have helped educate them but deliberately chose to do so.. Its strange at how often their jargon gets flagged here only for it to disappear over there.... 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I have read every post on this thread, I am a "Show Me" kind of person.
> 
> I would love to see "standards" not just this or that frog morph is bred true,
> 
> if there is no standard its just one persons words vs another.
> 
> If the goal of the "community" is preserving the wild PDFs then they better be standards. more documentation, inspection to stop contraban imports.
> frogglets with papers....violate and lose the ability to sell frogs with papers.
> 
> I would hope health of the frogs raised is a top priority.
> 
> who doesn't want a bold, healthy, stunning long lived frogs that love being with other frogs?
> 
> its hard for me to see some Pseudoscientists calling the kettle black.
> 
> I worked hard for my education in biology, science & ethics run hand in hand.
> 
> I see frog sellers, vs frog sellers, I don't want hot pink tincs, but someone does. i don't want to be a tadpole churning machine ether
> 
> I have put over a year of research into keeping darts BEFORE I bought my 1st frogs.
> 
> has anyone ever took a tour of the DFW opperation?


I don't know the extent of you education in biology, but it's pretty unusual for someone with an education in biology to anthropomorphize animals to the degree that the statement "stunning long lived frogs that love being with other frogs" does.

You've made some good points and you've asked good questions, but I don't think you're listening to the answers. Inbreeding is a problem. Line breeding is a problem. At least twice there have been legitimate efforts to track hobby lines with an eventual goal of minimizing line breeding and those efforts didn't get enough buy-in by hobby members to be successful. Some of the reduction in frog size that we see may not be nutritional and may be from inbreeding, although I would expect to see longevity affected too. Without data, though, that's all conjecture, and randomly breeding different locales together isn't necessarily the solution.

So let's look at it from a different angle. 

Imagine that your very passionate about a subject. You enjoy talking to others about it, you help new people with it, you learn and read about it from more experienced ones. You're by no means a scientist, but you read a lot of scientific documents on the subject. You find others with the same interests and discuss different aspects of that subject. You meet them online and in person. You eventually spend many thousands of dollars in the pursuit of that subject and you eventually earn, through both literature and personal experience, a pretty good education in that subject. For lack of a better word, you love this pursuit. 

Now along comes an institution that has very limited experience in that subject, but they publicly proclaim over and over again that they _are the experts in that field_. They dismiss actual experts, even the ones who gave them what little education they have. They make all the rookie mistakes that everyone makes, but because they've claimed expertise they can't recant on any of their previous inaccuracy, so they double down with further unproven conjecture presented as fact. They seem to have an absolute disdain for any of the literature you found so helpful, except for a few hand picked quotes that, when taken out of context, seem to support some of the "facts" that you know to be untrue. Well, you might kindly offer correction (most of us did originally), you might decide that they're not worth your time (probably true), but what do you do when you see new people, drawn to the subject just as you were, getting completely shammed by their lies? How do you feel about that misrepresentation? 

On that basis alone MoCarp, crossbreeding aside, do you think that deceptive entity is good for the community you love, or bad?


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I would love to see "standards" not just this or that frog morph is bred true,


The standards we are arguing for have been repeated ad nauseam throughout the 1050 posts in this thread and 1590 posts in its parent thread (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse.html). The standards have been made quite clear.


MoCarp said:


> I would hope health of the frogs raised is a top priority.


Again, this has been made quite clear throughout this thread. DFW has repeatedly posted bad information to their website that is potentially harmful to frogs in the care of those that take their advice.


MoCarp said:


> its hard for me to see some Pseudoscientists calling the kettle black.


At least you admit that the kettle is indeed black. If you've read this entire thread and its parent thread, then it should be clear to you that many of those participating in this discussion are scientists with undergraduate and advanced degrees and we have repeatedly debunked the Wascher's junk with relevant science and citations 


MoCarp said:


> I worked hard for my education in biology, science & ethics run hand in hand.


As have I and many others on this thread. To have it insinuated that I (or other scientists participating in this thread) practice psuedoscience and lack ethics really pisses me off.


MoCarp said:


> has anyone ever took a tour of the DFW opperation?


They've made it clear with statements on their website that they do not want visitors. Early on they wanted visitors to sign a confidentiality agreement to enter their facility and then later they stated that their facility was closed to visitors.

I think Boondoggle has replied much more eloquently than I could, so I'll just say that his thoughts are a good reflection of my own.


----------



## Pubfiction

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Can anyone explain to me why this and these threads on this particular business have been allowed to balloon into a mammoth repetitive discussion non stop for months and literally over 1000 posts but other posts about bad businesses have been subdued and swept under the rug?

Seriously you guys aren't accomplishing anything while you bicker on a forum USdartfrog keeps finding and pleasing new customers. Meanwhile nothing is happening with the care sheets and stickies or this website as a whole to attract more people here and provide them with concise informative advice and a good positive experience. 

I will guess all your parents told you at some point you cannot change anyone but yourself. Maybe it should be considered how that would apply to this situation be you a hobbyist, or a business competing with USdartfrog.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They started it


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Pubfiction said:


> Meanwhile nothing is happening with the care sheets and stickies or this website as a whole to attract more people here and provide them with concise informative advice and a good positive experience.


I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. All of the caresheets on this website need to be refreshed/updated and better organized. There are many improvements that can be made to help new folks here and keep them out of the hands people/companies like DFW.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

are there any published scientific authors of Amphibia: Anura: Dendrobatidae regularly on this forum?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> are there any published scientific authors of Amphibia: Anura: Dendrobatidae regularly on this forum?


How does that have anything to do with this thread?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Pubfiction said:


> Can anyone explain to me why this and these threads on this particular business have been allowed to balloon into a mammoth repetitive discussion non stop for months and literally over 1000 posts but other posts about bad businesses have been subdued and swept under the rug?


Tom has previously answered this question.



> Seriously you guys aren't accomplishing anything while you bicker on a forum USdartfrog keeps finding and pleasing new customers. Meanwhile nothing is happening with the care sheets and stickies or this website as a whole to attract more people here and provide them with concise informative advice and a good positive experience.


Not true. We've reached quite a few people. Almost daily I point someone new asking about USA Frog to this thread. 

I do agree, the stickies need a lot of work. This is really a strawman. If you feel so passionately about this, take it upon yourself to something about that specific problem or raise that issue elsewhere. 



> I will guess all your parents told you at some point you cannot change anyone but yourself. Maybe it should be considered how that would apply to this situation be you a hobbyist, or a business competing with USdartfrog.


Actually this is exactly what we are doing. Of course we can't make USA Frog change, but we can influence and inform others. THAT is what this thread is all about.

I would suggest if you don't like this thread, just don't participate. You don't have to click on it or read it. Just ignore it if it bothers you.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. All of the caresheets on this website need to be refreshed/updated and better organized. There are many improvements that can be made to help new folks here and keep them out of the hands people/companies like DFW.


So you're volunteering to work on some of those caresheets then? That would be awesome if you would. They do need some serious attention.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Pubfiction said:


> I will guess all your parents told you at some point you cannot change anyone but yourself. Maybe it should be considered how that would apply to this situation be you a hobbyist, or a business competing with USdartfrog.


My parents told me to fight for what i believe is right.

As for why this thread persists, it keeps DFW and their unethical practices and pseudoscientific BS in the forefront and the thread readily available to new hobbyists who may be duped or misinformed by DFW. For example, this week they rolled out their Topgun American Frogs but haven't disclosed that these are mixed morph/designer frogs. Are you suggesting we should just leave potential hobbyists uninformed of these unethical practices? How does that help the Hobby?

To suggest that a long running thread runs to the detriment of other forum threads or somehow keeps people from doing other things such as updating care sheets is ridiculous IMO. Those care sheets were stagnant way before DFW came along and, unfortunately, will still be stagnant long after DFW is gone or out of the spotlight.


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> So you're volunteering to work on some of those caresheets then? That would be awesome if you would. They do need some serious attention.


Doug, I will definitely volunteer to work on them, but they need to be a collaboration for sure. We need to put together a team of people to tackle this and other updates to the site. (I'd also volunteer to create a new logo/banner for the site, as this is what I actually do for a living.)

Obviously any of this will need approval of the mod team and site admins, so the ball's in your court guys!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> Doug, I will definitely volunteer to work on them, but they need to be a collaboration for sure. We need to put together a team of people to tackle this and other updates to the site. (I'd also volunteer to create a new logo/banner for the site, as this is what I actually do for a living.)
> 
> Obviously any of this will need approval of the mod team and site admins, so the ball's in your court guys!


FANTASTIC!

Why don't you start up a thread about it. It's really off topic here. It's a diversion here from the topic of this thread.


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Here are my thoughts: their ads on KS are misleading, USA Frogs or whatever they are calling themselves and their frogs now are not disclosing that they are hybrids.
I submitted a complaint outlining the above to Kingsnakes complaints classifieds abuse coordinator. 

If they want to sell hybrids they need to advertise that fact, not muddy the waters with made up names etc.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Bcs TX said:


> Here are my thoughts: their ads on KS are misleading, USA Frogs or whatever they are calling themselves and their frogs now are not disclosing that they are hybrids.
> I submitted a complaint outlining the above to Kingsnakes complaints classifieds abuse coordinator.
> 
> If they want to sell hybrids they need to advertise that fact, not muddy the waters with made up names etc.


That's a great idea. Could you share a link to let people know how to contact kingsnake. I'm sure the more people who express concerns abou their misleading adds, the more likely they are to stop their ads or at least require them to be honest. Of course, this is kingsnake we are talking about here, so I won't get my hopes up.


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I agree Doug, doesn't hurt to try...
Here's the link:kingsnake.com classified ads - reptile and amphibians, snakes, lizards, turtles, tortoises and more
Choose complaints and their is an abuse coordinator link once you click on that it gives options, I chose "Classifieds Abuse Coordinator" option, it asks for your e-mail address and an open text box is below, I cut and pasted a link to their ad and elaborated my complaint.
My comments were just about them not revealing the frogs were hybrids and not revealing lineage and assigning names to them without further info. Very straightforward about info lacking in their ad, period. 
Who knows maybe if their are enough inquiries on missing info KS might pay attention.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> Doug, I will definitely volunteer to work on them, but they need to be a collaboration for sure. We need to put together a team of people to tackle this and other updates to the site. (I'd also volunteer to create a new logo/banner for the site, as this is what I actually do for a living.)
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously any of this will need approval of the mod team and site admins, so the ball's in your court guys!



Thanks, we'll be contacting you shortly!


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

WOW !! here's a quote from their last adds on KS

quote"
NEW MEXICO - American Dart Frogs
Captive Bred and Raised Adult 1-2 years old $99.95

ALL AMERICAN DART FROGS OF LIKE AGE ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER!

They are great for mixed variety groups.

nd quote"


Kingsnake.com Classifieds: NEW! NEW MEXICO - American Dart Frogs - Satisfaction Guaranteed!

so if i read this right, he is saying that anyone of these diferent frogs can be mixed.. now they are encouraging people to mix !!!


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They have been doing that for a while now and the ad you took that quote from is actually for a mixed locale frog. Basically a mutt...

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I have read every post on this thread, I am a "Show Me" kind of person.
> 
> I would love to see "standards" not just this or that frog morph is bred true,
> 
> if there is no standard its just one persons words vs another.


The standards have been discussed in this thread, but basically we want healthy frogs that breed true and represent their wild counterparts. Also the longer you're in the hobby the more you pick up on who sells healthy frogs and has good buisness practices. That's why it is so important to speak out when someone doesn't or makes extraordinary claims.

As a scientists you should agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. They claim 100% healthy and "SAFE" frogs. Where is the proof to back that up? The proof that these frogs don't have any of the common parasites that occur in most collections? The proof that their frogs are some how exempt from passing desease on to other animals or even people?




MoCarp said:


> If the goal of the "community" is preserving the wild PDFs then they better be standards. more documentation, inspection to stop contraban imports.
> frogglets with papers....violate and lose the ability to sell frogs with papers.


Most of the controls in place are peer pressure/ community word of mouth based. Other then this USdart thread there have been many threads calling out hybrids, unhealthy frogs, unsuitable vivariums, bad husbandry, and bad buisness practices. Word of mouth, vendor feedback and the board of inquiry are all part of the community policing itself. 

Most of what you propose there would be impossible or at least highly impractical to implement, but ironically this thread is in a way basically attempting to do what you suggest, yet you seem to fault us for it??? ...But I'm very interested in hearing from you how we implement the controls you suggest in an effective/practical way, without actually imbuing the "frog police" with real powers of arrest. I don't know of any hobby that has managed to implement the controls you suggest.



MoCarp said:


> I would hope health of the frogs raised is a top priority.
> 
> who doesn't want a bold, healthy, stunning long lived frogs that love being with other frogs?


Of course, and as I said people pick up on who has a rep for great frogs, but USdart's extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, plus they go on about conspiracies of other froggers all trying to scam the customer, while they target the least informed, lie, and spread bad or questionable info, and anti community proganda setting their customers up for failure or at least more strife then if they'd gotten frogs and info from the good guys. So they are the boogy man, that they warn others against... Irony.

As for the frogs loving to cuddle, that's anthropomorhism of animals for the benefit of the uninformed and to make a sale. You support that as a scientist? ...and someone now in the hobby?

If they were doing legit research over decades like the Russian silver fox experiments, and got it peer reviewed I might be able to swallow It a bit easier, but still I'm not sure we want that as those would be designer frogs that weren't representative of their wild counter parts. We'd have every right as a community to speak out against that, but at least it might not be the complete BS that has come from them so far.

Also there is the ethical consideration that these people can't do/have what they want without adversely effecting the community that was here long before them. I'd like a bright purple dart frog that glows in the dark, flies and spits fire... but I can't make one without disrespecting the community and possibly torpeedoing the hobby as a whole. These people claim to have 6000-7000+ frogs many of which it seems are hybrids. I'm not even sure there are that many active dart froggers in the hobby. 

You think that many frogs can be unleashed on this small niche of the herp/amphib hobby by people prone to sleazy tactics targeting the least informed, pseudoscience, questionable husbandry and at least one bold faced lie ...and not have a horrible impact on the hobby???

Again, designer frogs may be unavoidable at some point, but these are about the worst people possible to pop the hobby's cherry on a comercial scale. I question the ethics of coming into a hobby and forcing massive and rapid change on it all for the selfish desire to have a franken frog and line your pockets... Why don't you?




MoCarp said:


> its hard for me to see some Pseudoscientists calling the kettle black.
> 
> I worked hard for my education in biology, science & ethics run hand in hand.


People post some observations and put forth ideas and/or opinions but in the decade I've been here people who claim "it's SCIENCE" like Rick get called out on it pretty quickly. People who aren't ethical get called out on it... Again we are attempting to do what you seem to want, but you are against it?




MoCarp said:


> I see frog sellers, vs frog sellers, I don't want hot pink tincs, but someone does. i don't want to be a tadpole churning machine ether


Well while it is true a lot of people here breed and at least occasionally sell frogs, in my experience the community has been pretty welcoming to new vendors as long as they respect the çommunity standards and are ethical. It is a forum for dart frog keepers and breeders after all... But if you need an example of someone active in this thread and against these people who hasnt sold frogs in years... you've got me 



MoCarp said:


> I have put over a year of research into keeping darts BEFORE I bought my 1st frogs.
> 
> has anyone ever took a tour of the DFW opperation?


 Great, and as long as you respect the community standards, good husbandry and are ethical in your dealings with others I'm more then glad to have you here even if we don't always agree...

But I still don't understand why you aren't railing against these people too, especially since you're a scientist. Every time these people make some one off observation and come to some grand conclusion, stamp it as "SCIENCE!!!" and preach it as gospel truth to those who don't know any better, they insult and undermine science and scientists as a whole. I'm just a science ed major who switched to social studies, and what these people do and preach still pisses me off as someone who loves and respects science, but isn't a scientist... nor a frog seller.

The tour question has been covered.


----------



## Dimond

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay, they were harping on 'European expertise' and bringing up the Lotters
book as a justification for mixing, right? Well I am reading the book and noticed a section entitled 'communal keeping'. It talks about multispecies exhibits and how hard it is to do it right, but then about hybrids they say this:



> Even though many of these crosses may look rather attractive in their colors and patterns, responsible breeders will take every precaution to produce only offspring that truly represent a certain species or even a certain variety. Considering the extent of the ongoing destruction of natural habitats, keeping the natural forms pure at least in captivity is an aim everybody should pursue.(page 236, English edition)


Why do I get the feeling that they only looked at the pretty pictures?


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dimond said:


> Okay, they were harping on 'European expertise' and bringing up the Lotters
> book as a justification for mixing, right? Well I am reading the book and noticed a section entitled 'communal keeping'. It talks about multispecies exhibits and how hard it is to do it right, but then about hybrids they say this:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I get the feeling that they only looked at the pretty pictures?


LOL, good find... I guess since it didn't fit their agenda they left that part out. Considering how much they pimped Lotters to us, and their claims to be scientists that's a big deal in my book. 

Good scientists aren't supposed to pick and choose the info or manipulate the context of it so that it supports what they want it to. Sadly given that "species or even varieties" part uses almost the exact wording they used on the website when they claimed they wouldn't do that stuff (then did it), I'm guessing they did more then look at the pictures. Maybe they didn't understand or more likely just didn't care since it didn't suit their agenda.

I wonder if we'll get a website edit from them to justify their position?


----------



## Dart girl

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



yeloowtang said:


> WOW !! here's a quote from their last adds on KS
> 
> 
> 
> quote"
> 
> NEW MEXICO - American Dart Frogs
> 
> Captive Bred and Raised Adult 1-2 years old $99.95
> 
> 
> 
> ALL AMERICAN DART FROGS OF LIKE AGE ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER!
> 
> 
> 
> They are great for mixed variety groups.
> 
> 
> 
> nd quote"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kingsnake.com Classifieds: NEW! NEW MEXICO - American Dart Frogs - Satisfaction Guaranteed!
> 
> 
> 
> so if i read this right, he is saying that anyone of these diferent frogs can be mixed.. now they are encouraging people to mix !!!




They removed that crazy ad 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Its a MIRACLE!!! They have no ads on kingsnake right now, Whoohoo!

Of course this is probably only temporary, but its great to see 


John


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

and the hits just keep on comin
Dart Frog Wiki

Just like you say guy`s..."no fables, just facts and truth alone"


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



That ridiculous site said:


> Also, many myths will be shattered. For example, assuming they are cared for properly, easy-care at that, these frogs never kill each other and never ever die under the stress of breeding. The grandpa notion of such a thing is stupid and maddening at the same time.


7000 frogs and NEVER one death or stress-inducing situation...stupid and maddening indeed, "grandpa". I swear they run each paragraph through 3 or 4 languages with Google translate before posting.


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It's a wiki, does that mean that we get to go in and put in *real* information for them? Could be fun... 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

OK so Dimond posted about this, and I went over it already, but I think it is worth breaking it down and posting about it again, because it is in my opinion a prime example of them either totally not getting it, and/or intentionally warping the facts to suit their agenda. Check out the 2nd circled paragraph where they further circle "species or even varieties"...

(Image is linked to from Usadart.com, so if there is a copyright infringement, it should be on them)









Here is their own response/interpretation...



Usafrog.com said:


> As they should to promote consistency everywhere, the experts use the term "crosses", “cross-breed” and “cross-breeding” scientifically meaning a mixtures of different species. Similarly, the experts also use the term “hybrid” or “hybridization” scientifically meaning "an inability to reproduce", and natural "form" meaning species, i.e., a tinctorus is a tinctorius, an auratus is an auratus, a leucomelas is aleucomelas, etc.
> TAKE-AWAY FACT #2 (from the excerpt immediately above)
> "All this boils down to..." is personal choice! Keeping the groups separated by species and compatibility is a good idea.




Notice they "take-away" from that "it's personal choice" , then go on to leave out the "even other varieties" part when they say keeping species sesperate is a good idea. ...How convenient

Now look here where they give their own definition of "varieties" (races)...


usadart.com said:


> In short, the experts say it is not always easy to tell the difference between the races (varieties) of each species and BECAUSE they interbreed in the wild (see Fact above), and they are "polymorphic." But what does "Polymorphic" mean?


So by their own definition "varieties" = "races" (I.e. morphs/localities because they've already differentiated between "variety" and "species"). They then interpreted from *Lotters:* "responible breeders will take every precaution to produce only offspring that truly represent a certain species *or even variety.* "...keeping the *natural forms pure at least in captivity is an aim everybody should pursue"* ...that..."All this boils down to..." is personal choice!" So IMO piss poor reading comprehension and/or an obvious skewing of the facts to sell a frog. 

Oh ya, these are the people you wanna trust to educate and sell frogs to newbies 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think It's worth pointing out, that they in my opinion also skew Lotters in the first circled paragraph when they say this... 

TAKE-AWAY FACT #1 (from the excerpt immediately above)
The proper basis for considering poison dart frogs is by species alone. There is no subspecies, and any subspecies theory simply explains the appearance variations which we study very closely.

...Because it seems to me Lotters means that mainly in the context of scientific nomenclature, because he specifically states that, then follows it up with the "responsible breeders" remark in the next circled paragraph.

I believe the arguement is further supported when he specifically points out "only serve to express variability within a species." because while he does go on to say it can cause confusion in the hobby, he specifically identifies the the hobby context there, and that coupled with the context of his qualifying remark of "within scientific nomenclature", brings us to the later statements in the 2nd paragraph. That he goes through the trouble of setting the contexts for those statements then further goes on to say in the 2nd circled paragraph "responsible breeders will take every precaution to produce offspring that truly represent a species *or even a certain variety*"... all add up to support my arguement. 

While it could be argued that Lotters some what contradicts himself or isn't completely clear on his position, I think it is clear that by his qualifying remarks and latter statements that he doesn't completely throw the baby out with the bath water as USAdart.com would have you believe. 

So In my opinion USAdart is willing to pounce on any ambiguity, and exploit it in an attempt to skew content in service of their agenda. A track record of this and the earlier out right lie ...we will not mix species or varieties" [/ color] documented throughout this thread, is in my opinion strong evidence these acts are not honest mistakes.

*
So I take all that as strong evidence that Lotters does not completely dismiss it as having no purpose in the hobby and gives free reign for all to mix morphs, races, localities, races or even varieties, as USAdart.com would have you believe.* 

Now I leave it up to the reader to come to their own conclusions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Source.material quoted from these USAdart.com pages as they appeared 10/19/2014...
http://usafrog.com/breeding-american-dart-frogs.ASPX
http://usafrog.com/Polymorphism.aspx


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> or intentionally warping the facts to suit their agenda.


Nah, that couldn`t be it


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I find it amusing that he is obviously still following this thread. Every time we absolutely destroy any of his positions, he come back with some laughable justification, explanation so etc. anyone with a brain can see right the it, and their customers are probably confused as to why they have to be so defensive. It is actually to our advantage that Rick does these things though as it gives us every opportunity to expose them as the frauds that they are.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> While it could be argued that Lotters some what contradicts himself or isn't completely clear on his position, I think it is clear that by his qualifying remarks and latter statements that he doesn't completely throw the baby out with the bath water as USAdart.com would have you believe.


Given that the Lotters et al is translated into English for us, I think his position is pretty clear and lacks any such confusion... People often assume that these texts are perfectly translated but that is totally dependent on the skill of the person who translated the material. 

For example, it is possible that variety may not be the correct translation since Lotters et al clearly chose phrases that are much more accepted as part of the scientific lexicon in virtually all other sections of the book. 
I have serious doubts that Lotters et al was not aware of the studies that demonstrated that those populations had not had contact in more than 10,000 years. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Reminds me of other books that have not been properly translated throughout history.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I seriously need to stop looking at that website....

Breeding American Dart Frogs


----------



## CAPTAIN RON

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow,way to f__k the frog hobby up Dr,Frankenstein!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They won't fork up the hobby as long as we keep making people aware that they're frauds and that what they're doing is irresponsible, unethical, and potentially damaging. I'm sure that over the next few years after they fail, we will have some fallout. But if were diligent we can make sure they don't fsck us. I'm really more concerned about the potential new members to the hobby that we may loose because of their misinformation. They are setting people up for failure which is a sure fire way to not retain new hobbyists. Really sucks. I'm sure that Rick, being the spiteful and vindictive person that he is, takes a certain amount of sadistic satisfaction in knowing that if he cannot succeed, he can at least *TRY* to do as much damage to the hobby as he can on the way down.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well, on the bright side, at least I get to read Lötters' book for free!

I'm not even going to try and counter their "logic", I'm too tired this morning....

John


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I seriously need to stop looking at that website....
> 
> Breeding American Dart Frogs


Oof...no kidding. Up is down, left is right, black is white, Lotters says this, but means this. That's some pretty twisty logic, but I guess that's what happens when agenda>ethics.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I`m telling you Jeremy, my eye`s bled after reading that mess


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I seriously need to stop looking at that website....
> 
> Breeding American Dart Frogs


Ya I just love how they IMO play with the reader, trying to confuse and disorientate them.

Look at this...
" At US Dart Frog, our breedeing operations, stays within species and within variety, and we offer them both. We never create a hybrid cross-breed.
All this boils down to personal choice.

Wishing you all the best!"
USA frog

They say specifically that their breeding operation stays within variety. Then they go on to say they never create a hybrid cross breed... now by their definitition the hybrid cross breed part might be true by species. Varieties, don't constitute a hybrid, or even a cross breed by their definition, but even though mixed morphs, varieties or "races" doesn't in their mind don't constitute a hybrid cross breed, we are still left with the boldfaced lie or extreme error that they don't stay within variety and do in fact mix varieties... because we've all seen them for sale on the site. 

I'm sorry Rick but you specifically seperate species and variety, so after species "variety" must mean morph and/or locality, I.e."race" by your own words. Thus stating your breeding operation stays within "variety" when we've all seen your Ads for mixed "race" frogs, regardless of your "hybrid cross breed remark" is a lie... or one hell of a typo. 

Even if we accept your hybrid and/or cross breed definition, by your own definition of "variety", and your Ads for mixed race frogs, you've told the same lie twice or best case scenario confused yourself with your own BS.

So basically we have a rewording of that old "we will not mix species or varieties" lie from awhile back...at least on the varieties part. Old habits are hard to break I guess 

I find it utterly hilarious that he gets lost, and made to look the fool by his own BS/double talk

Yes I know I restated my argument here several ways... I just wanna be really clear


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So my wife just asked me why I'm always wearing fly fishing waders while reading "that one Dart Frog Page with the rainbows". 

Pretty soon I'm gonna need a snorkel.


----------



## DWF

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I think their new slogan should be:

“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” 

Had to make my first post somewhere, might as well be here.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



DWF said:


> I think their new slogan should be:
> 
> “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”
> 
> Had to make my first post somewhere, might as well be here.


This just made me lmfao and I needed a laugh ATM!!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



DWF said:


> I think their new slogan should be:
> 
> “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”
> 
> Had to make my first post somewhere, might as well be here.


and a damn good first post it is.

If you don`t mind me asking are you new to the hobby? If so, a big hug for that post.
I`m just wondering if you stumbled across them or us first.

Either way..welcome and ask for all the help you need.
Also, your user name is interesting


----------



## DWF

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> and a damn good first post it is.
> 
> If you don`t mind me asking are you new to the hobby? If so, a big hug for that post.
> I`m just wondering if you stumbled across them or us first.
> 
> Either way..welcome and ask for all the help you need.
> Also, your user name is interesting


To start with I am not new to frogs, but I have been into dart frogs less than a year. I have Orange/Black Foot terribs, Salt Creek, Darkland, Black Jeans, and Paru right now, and I have some Rio Bronco coming next week. 

I found this place first.

Oh, and my username is my initials.


----------



## PFG

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm new to darts, too, and am glad I stumbled upon this thread. I used to be big into ball pythons until it became popular to hybridize them. I'm pretty ant-hybrid, and I might not have realized that's what this company was up to had I not seen this thread. I'd most certainly have been put off by their sales tactics, though, as well as how unprofessional the site looks being littered with 'TM' and 'R' after every word they make up to hype their frogs.


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

WOW what will these guys think of next. look what they posted up on tier website now.

Coming Soon!

DARTFROG.wiki
A site for everything dart frogs. Simple and straight forward from a perspective of pet care and breeding of 7,000 top quality, TOP GUN™ frogs! 

Raising top quality frogs is not hard to do, but there are a few must do things to be and stay successful. 

Also, many myths will be shattered. For example, assuming they are cared for properly, easy-care at that, these frogs never kill each other and never ever die under the stress of breeding. The grandpa notion of such a thing is stupid and maddening at the same time. These frogs are some of the most gentle NON-aggressive creatures on earth. 

Thus, this site won't deal in fables, but facts and truth alone! 

DARTFROG.WIKI COMING SOON!

Dart Frog Wiki


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Everyone has done a great job of sticking to "fact" here. 

Please continue to keep the putdowns and name calling away from this thread.

Fact alone is enough to avoid this place.

s


----------



## oldlady25715

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Looks like USA Frog has a new line of "Top Gun American" hybrids named after each State. I wonder if the "Wisconsin" hybrid will look like cheese.


----------



## BrainBug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"HAWAII - TOP GUN AMERICAN frogs
The Hawaii is a magnificent frog of hidden rainbows. Our work studying frog skin and coloration has led us to this discovery. The layers of the Hawaii frog skin combine to produce a prism effect. The rainbow is truly spectral–produced by light. Marvelous! "

Now the poor Hawaiian auratus, the closest thing to a real Hawaiian dart frog, will have to deal with these haole imposters calling themselves Hawaiian. The irony.
I can't help but think that their "work of studying frog skin and coloration" is nothing more then just staring at the frogs the same as you or I look at our frogs.

This one was my favorite though:
"NEW YORK - 2 Varieties - TOP GUN AMERICAN frogs
The skin color and pattern are what all well-dressed frogs are wearing these days, but only in the town where fashion week is king. This New Yorker frog is the epitome of style and grace and wears the best designer formal attire. Regal and a stunner! "

It really seems like they have just become a parody of themselves. It's as if someone in that family reads this forum, agrees with the majority here and secretly updates the site to sabotage the business. How could anyone, new or not, take that description seriously?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USAFrog said:


> Shortest in transit time, least frog stress, coolers (not panels) for shipments, and more! Checkout our shipping time table with TOTAL in-system (from us to you) delivery times averaging less than 10-12 hours!


Just noticed this garbage. Notice they're emphasizing NOT PANELS. Another intent to deceive people. Most reputable shippers use phase panels when they ship. They're better than coolers, we all know this. Well except DFC apparently. They're not cheep, which is why they probably don't use them. Anything to save a buck eh Rick? You'ld think as cheep as it is dropping of directly at the Memphis hub they wouldn't have to cut corners on shipping.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yeah, I want to see them use those "Coolers" post Thanksgiving.

Panels - the right tool for the job.

You can actually use "Cooler Packs" in conjunction with Panels - and it's a very wise trick. 

Or you can just be cheap and hope nobody notices.

s


----------



## DWF

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Just noticed this garbage. Notice they're emphasizing NOT PANELS. Another intent to deceive people. Most reputable shippers use phase panels when they ship. They're better than coolers, we all know this. Well except DFC apparently. They're not cheep, which is why they probably don't use them. Anything to save a buck eh Rick? You'ld think as cheep as it is dropping of directly at the Memphis hub they wouldn't have to cut corners on shipping.


That would be somewhat like a jeweler saying " We use only cubic zirconia in our custom made jewelry, never diamonds".

Just because something isn't a lie does not mean that it isn't deceptive.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I think what they`re doing at this point is ridiculous...even for them.

I have to wonder if things are going good for them why change that website weekly?
I`ve done business with every sponsor here for years and other than adding new products they rarely if ever change.

It just boggles my mind how a group of "adults" could not be embarrassed by that nonsense.
The sad thing is they do have some knowledge but would rather turn themselves into something you would see on Cartoon Network..which makes total sense because I cannot believe someone older than 10 would even buy into that.

Now we have frogs dressing in tuxedos and hitting fashion week in NY.
I shutter to think what will be there next week.

But, every so often someone new find`s their way here first, like the 2 people who recently posted here and that give`s me hope.
We all at one point need to take a break from them from time to time and like Scott said it`s been going great here.

Thanks for listening.. I have a wedding tomorrow and have to get my Terribilis fitted for a tux. 
What goes good with orange?


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It really is unfortunate. The thing is, everyone here really did offer excellent advice to them when they were starting out. They could have actually had a good thing going, if they weren't so arrogant and dead set on trying to be different. But in the end, this really only hurts new froggers trying to get into the hobby. It really, REALLY hurts new froggers, even those who have not purchased from them, because there will always be the question in the back of everyone's mind when juveniles come up for sale "were these USDF frogs?" even if stated otherwise. And as has been noted, it's not hard to get these frogs to breed. At this point, it will likely only be the well established breeders who have lines that will be trusted, and it will be extremely difficult for anyone else to be able to get into breeding these animals. Recommendations on housing for newcomers may have to switch to housing frogs individually to avoid all breeding, if it gets to the point that young frogs are that hard to sell. I know that if I need to get some azureus, etc. in the future, I will likely not be perusing the classifieds anywhere, but go directly to someone like Josh's who has established stock from before this fiasco. But then, there will be the question in the back of everyone's mind as to whether or not that was really the origin of my own frogs when they breed. At least, that's how I see the future of this thing going. I'm glad I like Oophaga.


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ok i dont even know why i keep looking at hier site anymore as it just ticks me off to no end. this stuff just keeps getting more and more outrageous to say the least. 



AMERICAN™ frogs are SAFE® TOP GUN™ pet frogs first domesticated by us, USA Frog!
They are all bred and raised socially and in captivity here in Tennessee, U.S.A. We give them state names in recognition of our great 50 states that make up this country. These frogs are, without a doubt, the rarest and in our opinion–the "awesomest" pet frogs in the world. We offer these AMERICAN frogs as replacements for poison dart frogs. Available ONLY from USA Frog–ALWAYS best of the best, because frogs are all we do. 
Buy AMERICAN, Buy TOP GUN™!






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




ALL AMERICAN™ FROGS ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER!
They are great for mixed variety groups.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Moghue said:


> Ok i dont even know why i keep looking at hier site anymore as it just ticks me off to no end. this stuff just keeps getting more and more outrageous to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> AMERICAN™ frogs are SAFE® TOP GUN™ pet frogs first domesticated by us, USA Frog!
> They are all bred and raised socially and in captivity here in Tennessee, U.S.A. We give them state names in recognition of our great 50 states that make up this country. These frogs are, without a doubt, the rarest and in our opinion–the "awesomest" pet frogs in the world. We offer these AMERICAN frogs as replacements for poison dart frogs. Available ONLY from USA Frog–ALWAYS best of the best, because frogs are all we do.
> Buy AMERICAN, Buy TOP GUN™!
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALL AMERICAN™ FROGS ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER!
> They are great for mixed variety groups.


Well good they are steering away from calling their frogs PDF. That makes me happy. Now maybe when new people google PDF's they won't end up at their site.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dravenxavier said:


> It really, REALLY hurts new froggers, even those who have not purchased from them, because there will always be the question in the back of everyone's mind when juveniles come up for sale "were these USDF frogs?" even if stated otherwise.


Speaking as a new frogger I couldn't agree more. I have acquired four groups so far. All have been well established adults that I can trace back to either Josh or Black Jungle. All have been acquired through a longtime DB member who is local to me in MA.

I was wanting to hit the next NE reptile Expo and get a group of Tincs. The thought of walking up to a table that is not Black Jungle and buying any Tinc morph is a deeply troubling prospect for me. Same goes for the classifieds.

Really is a shame...


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I have to wonder if things are going good for them why change that website weekly?
> I`ve done business with every sponsor here for years and other than adding new products they rarely if ever change.


Unless there is not a single person there with a business degree, I would say this points to big problems moving frogs.

When they do finally go under, the big challenge for the hobby will be the "en masse" inventory dump.....


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



SDK said:


> .
> When they do finally go under, the big challenge for the hobby will be the "en masse" inventory dump.....


Once again I'm going to point out that this concern is pretty much a bed the hobby has made for itself. There were two previous opportunities (and both were available for a number of years) to track animals at both the individual animal and the group level. This would have allowed the hobby a number of benefits including (and not limited to) degrees of relatedness and descent. However the hobby overwhelmingly showed no interest in these programs. If even a small number of hobbyists had participated in those programs this would be a very small concern. 
So to blame the impact on the hobby solely on those breeders is incorrect at best. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ed- Are you referring to something along these lines?

HerpRegistry - American Cornsnake Registry - Home

Is it too late to use DFW's existence at a catalyst to restart the discussion?

Honestly just curious as I was not around at the time. Is there is a discussion thread I can be directed to on the subject???

Edit- Just searched on "registry" and found what I think is the history. Just leaves the "is it to late to look into again" question....


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> So to blame the impact on the hobby solely on those breeders is incorrect at best.


No one in the hobby has come close to doing the damage..bordering on criminal that these people have done.

On one page they post lies, misinformation and the most childish banter I`ve ever heard,
and on the next page they want you to check out their "beliefs"

With all do respect Ed, it`s not even close


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> No one in the hobby has come close to doing the damage..bordering on criminal that these people have done.
> 
> On one page they post lies, misinformation and the most childish banter I`ve ever heard,
> and on the next page they want you to check out their "beliefs"
> 
> With all do respect Ed, it`s not even close


John, 
I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the frogs ending up into the hobby trade at some point whether it is from a mass dump, being sold at shows or through secondary dealers and the fact that the hobby had more than one opportunity for a number of years to have in place a mechanism that would have prevented that concern. 

The hobby made the potential contamination of the genetics possible by refusing to take advantage of either program that would have tracked degrees of relatedness. The fault in this is only the fault of the hobby because they didn't care until it was too late (and I seriously doubt that even if they were still around that enough people would take advantage of it to make it viable). 

If you feel that their business practices are worse than letting the results of their actions screw up the genetics of frogs that have been around for a long period of time, then I'm going to disagree with you. As soon as it becomes apparent that some of their frogs have ended up in the general population, then those frog populations are probably going to go extinct in the hobby. They may persist in some collections but for the purpose of the hobby they will be functionally without value just like other possible hybrids and few if any will want them. 

*The hobby had multiple chances to prevent the scenario from ever occurring but chose not to do it for one reason or another. So to try and lay that at the feet of bad business practices of a company is simply refusing to recognize that it would never have been an issue if people gave a hoot when they should have cared* So I'm going to stand by the comment, the comments about the risk to the genetics were enabled by the lack of care in the hobby to take preventative action. *Lots of talk, but too few cared enough to take the preventative action*. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



SDK said:


> Ed- Are you referring to something along these lines?
> 
> HerpRegistry - American Cornsnake Registry - Home
> 
> Is it too late to use DFW's existence at a catalyst to restart the discussion?
> 
> .


It is definitely too late for us to have access to the software that the zoos use to track all of that information (software that was made for this sort of purpose). I don't know about frogtrax. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> It is definitely too late for us to have access to the software that the zoos use to track all of that information (software that was made for this sort of purpose). I don't know about frogtrax.


I never understood why AZA took public access away from the new system that replaced ISIS. As a zoo-goer it was nice to be able to log into ISIS and see which zoos had which animals and plan trips accordingly.

I feel like there's got to be some way to build or utilize a registry for our animals. If we don't have access to frogtrax anymore there's still got to be enough programming talent on this forum to build a database. If all of us can track the lineage of our own frogs (I use a simple excel spreadsheet for mine) then we should be able to backtrack enough to create a decent system. It should at the very least alleviate fears of the origins of frogs, even if it doesn't handle the relatedness issue so well.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> John,
> I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the frogs ending up into the hobby trade at some point whether it is from a mass dump, being sold at shows or through secondary dealers and the fact that the hobby had more than one opportunity for a number of years to have in place a mechanism that would have prevented that concern.
> 
> The hobby made the potential contamination of the genetics possible by refusing to take advantage of either program that would have tracked degrees of relatedness. The fault in this is only the fault of the hobby because they didn't care until it was too late (and I seriously doubt that even if they were still around that enough people would take advantage of it to make it viable).
> 
> If you feel that their business practices are worse than letting the results of their actions screw up the genetics of frogs that have been around for a long period of time, then I'm going to disagree with you. As soon as it becomes apparent that some of their frogs have ended up in the general population, then those frog populations are probably going to go extinct in the hobby. They may persist in some collections but for the purpose of the hobby they will be functionally without value just like other possible hybrids and few if any will want them.
> 
> *The hobby had multiple chances to prevent the scenario from ever occurring but chose not to do it for one reason or another. So to try and lay that at the feet of bad business practices of a company is simply refusing to recognize that it would never have been an issue if people gave a hoot when they should have cared* So I'm going to stand by the comment, the comments about the risk to the genetics were enabled by the lack of care in the hobby to take preventative action. *Lots of talk, but too few cared enough to take the preventative action*.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Hey Ed, I see where both you and John stand on the matter and I think your both right in a way. This threat to the hobby could have been greatly reduced if the tracking software that was offered to us was accepted by us froggers, but I'm not certain that it would have eliminated this situation completely from happening in the future. There will always be someone dead set on producing hybrids morphs and there will always be those who lie to make a sale. I honestly believe these people would produce and sell hybrids regardless of any system in place. The tracking software could definitely make it easier to avoid frogs from a company such as US Dart, but it wouldn't eliminate their mark on the hobby. There would still be thousands of frogs that would need to go somewhere (if they really do have thousands of frogs) and they would inevitably make it into other lines someday. There would be less damage, but it would still affect us all in the long run. I see where your coming from Ed, but this isn't all on the hobby alone, nor is it just on these guys, its on ALL of us and that includes the clowns that we've posted thousands of times about now. 

I've been wondering, you've posted many times on how there was always talk but no action on the hobby's part, but how much talk was there? Were there really enough people talking to make it a viable idea to begin with, or was there a whole lot of talk from a dedicated few? These tracking programs were scrapped before my time in this hobby and I was never sure on this. It hurts to think that we lost our opportunity to such a valuable resource. I would love to use it today, but of course that isn't going to happen. Currently, I track all of my frogs back two, three or sometimes more generations back through a document on my computer, and that is realistically all any of us can do right now...

Wish there was a real way to prevent this, but hasn't been and there isn't any realistic solution to this problem. The best we can do now is track our frogs with what we have and buy from those that we can trust.

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I agree that tracking populations within the hobby would be an extra layer of protection, but tracking and what efforts we currently make both rely on participation, and to some extent the honor system... 2 areas where USAdart has failed IMO. 

While we could have done more to protect ourselves, I don't think that in any way excuses their behavior. I will have to respectfully disagree, that our failure is worse then theirs. No level of tracking prevents people like USAdart from doing what they've done. It just mitigates the damage some. The values we pass on and the culture we share and perpetuate is the only thing we have to actually stop it outright. These people not only didn't respect that, they actively undermine it intentionally for their own benefit and on a massive scale. 

Just because I didn't lock my car, that doesn't mean the thief who stole it shouldn't be held accountable. Holding USAdart accountable and spreading the word that this is not OK is not only justifiable, but necessary IMO regardless of what other safeguards we did or didn't take advantage of. The bad guys are still the bad guys even if the victims could have been less easy targets...and most of the blame IMO should still fall on them. (But I still <3 you Ed  )


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The point I was trying (and failed) to make was all the froggers, myself included didn`t take advantage of the tracking system.

Were we wrong? Yes.

These people have one agenda... to sell their frogs to people who clearly don`t know how to properly care for them. They are doing this on purpose and don`t give a rats ass about anything else...period.
The people who failed to register their frogs as far I`m concerned do not fall into that category and are not hell bent on destroying the hobby for their own gain.

So are we both at fault here...yea I guess.
But my friends here are not dumping frogs by the 100`s to people who don`t know any better by telling them that "the experts are full of it" and to believe the "good word"

I am so done with this crap.

Love ya Ed!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Our hobby has it's own issues, but it's *NEVER* too late to fix things.

Let's not lose sight though, of who the real bad guys are here. Blaming the hobby for the damage that USDARTFrog has done or might do is rediculous.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Let's not lose sight though, of who the real bad guys are here.


Yes.

Ok, we all blew off a little steam and I hope we`re all good.

Now, back to work


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I did “register” my frogs and would be willing relate my experience and thoughts on that, but not on this thread.


When this family of frog sellers first came on the board with their announcement of having 2000 dart frogs in their ”warehouse” I was sickened by just that number alone. They speak of 7000 dart frogs now .They don’t even label their tadpole cups. At this point I question that they can even care for these frogs humanely 

One thing they do that IS oh so American is adopt the MORE IS BETTER, BIGGER IS BETTER and make everything CHEAPER. If they want to take the beauty out of keeping dart frogs, they have done a good job. It is too bad Walmart took out their live pet department; maybe the W family could have gotten their investment back.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You'd think that Mr. Phenotype, being a IP lawyer, would know plagiarism when he sees it. At least cite your sources Ricky.



USAFrogs website said:


> In biogeography, the Neotropic or Neotropical zone is one of the eight terrestrial ecozones. This ecozone includes South and Central America, and other lesser locations. The Neotropic is delimited by similarities in fauna or flora, and includes more tropical rainforest (tropical and subtropical moist broadleaf forests) than any other ecozone, extending from southern Mexico through Central America and northern South America to southern Brazil, including the vast Amazon Rainforest. These rainforest ecoregions are one of the most important reserves of biodiversity on Earth. ALL of the NEOTROPIC frogs we breed and raise in captivity, and offer to you at the best prices, have distant wild ancestors from this region.


Source:
Neotropic ecozone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



USAFrogs website said:


> The meaning of the word 'American' in the English language varies according to the historical, geographical, and political context in which it is used. American is derived from “America”, a term originally denoting all of the New World (also called the Americas). In some expressions, it retains this Pan-American sense, but its usage has evolved over time and, for various historical reasons, the word came to denote people or things specifically from the United States of America.


Source:

e-Study Guide for: From Slavery to Freedom by John Hope Franklin, ISBN ... - Cram101 Textbook Reviews - Google Books


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ah but you forget all knowledge of righteous origin must flow from or through the great Rick... Who are we to question the word? The word is law, is truth and it is judged and filtered through Rick, though the best truth is the truth he makes himself...for us. Only once it has been filtered and deemed of Rick and thus the truth according to Rick, can it pass to us and begin to save our poor misguided natures, and the hobby that we must have been doing so completely wrong all this time. Thank you oh great and mysterious one!

Who are we to judge and fight that which is so far beyond us it is incomprehensible? Brothers and sisters I have seen the light and the light is Rick. Rick is here now, he will lead us from darkness into a brave new world not of our choosing. Though we came before him, it is clear now we came in ignorance. He has come to save us from ourselves, out of the goodness of his heart, and so what if he makes a few bucks on the side. Is it not a small price to pay to have all that we desire regardless of who it harms? Please brothers and sisters... Just drink the Kool-aid! ...and give yourself over to the word.

Oh great one please forgive them! ..they know not what they do!

Quickly brothers and sisters drinketh from his cup, and you may come to know the righteous path as I have. The path that Rick has laid down for us... Quickly before he smites the nonbelievers and the hobby out of furious vengence!

Mmm... Kool-aid... have some! 

(A satirical response, meant to illustrate my opinion on how he must see himself to say what he says, and to do what he does. How else do you explain it? ...oh that's right, delusion AND GREED.)


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Still the best quote from Rick..." Sometimes scientists are to weak to rest on something they cannot explain, so they make stuff up." That is as ironic as it gets.


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sometimes [email protected]#t artists are too weak to rest on something they cannot understand, so they pretend to be a scientist


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They are having a 4 for $57.95 fire sale right now, and individual frogs down as low as $17.95. They can't even be breaking even at those price points....


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



SDK said:


> They are having a 4 for $57.95 fire sale right now, and individual frogs down as low as $17.95. They can't even be breaking even at those price points....


Breaking even or not, those prices still seem too high for what they're peddling.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> Breaking even or not, those prices still seem too high for what they're peddling.


I agree 100%. Hoping that these are the first signs of the slide into insolvency...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> You'd think that Mr. Phenotype, being a IP lawyer, would know plagiarism when he sees it. At least cite your sources Ricky.
> 
> 
> 
> Source:
> Neotropic ecozone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Source:
> 
> e-Study Guide for: From Slavery to Freedom by John Hope Franklin, ISBN ... - Cram101 Textbook Reviews - Google Books


Now they're "Fun Wiki Facts".......


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

USA Frog is the one and only breeder of SAFE captive bred pet frogs as substitutes for poison dart frogs. Our frogs are SAFE frogs and look better than wild caught frogs. They live longer too. Our frogs are expected to live well into their teens, while poison dart frogs are expected to live for 4-5 years.


Lol ok

Even if this is the case, which it isn't, how could they possibly know this if they've only bred frogs for around a year or two?


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Remember how Superman traveled in time by flying really fast? ...IMO, They must do something similar, only it is by the speed of which BS spews from their mouth, they edit website and then back peddle. I'm sure Rick plans on patenting and trademarking the process.

My 2 cents


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Remember how Superman traveled in time by flying really fast? ...IMO, They must do something similar, only it is by the speed of which BS spews from their mouth, they edit website and then back peddle. I'm sure Rick plans on patenting and trademarking the process.
> 
> My 2 cents


Quoting myself may be they height of hubris and that's more Rick's specialty, but I'll risk it to expand on Invertaherp's post and mine to add...

I assume the time travel method outlined above is also how they determined a bunch of tinc morphs cammed into a viv for a few months would be perfectly SAFE over a decade or more.

OK I'm gonna try to take a break from this for awhile unless they do something new and stupid... So see ya in 5 minutes probably.


----------



## Charlie Q

" So see ya in 5 minutes probably"
That would be a new record.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> while poison dart frogs are expected to live for 4-5 years.
> 
> 
> ?


Rick, I just informed my 10 year old Luecomelas of this.

I`ve never seen them laugh so hard..."silly humans"


----------



## Igot99problems

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Excuse my ignorance, but why is there every type morph of ball python (even scaleless). but these guys are considered evil for doing it with frogs?? Completely honest question from a noob to the hobby.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Because these frogs are becoming extinct in the wild and we wish to preserve them as true to nature as we can. Besides bp are bred for colors and traits they don't have in the wild. Pdf have almost any color you could want without being tampered with. 

Then you have the fact that they lie daily and bend science to justify what they do.


----------



## Igot99problems

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ok gotcha, I was just curious because they will be in Atlanta this weekend. I will steer clear of their table


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Igot99problems said:


> Ok gotcha, I was just curious because they will be in Atlanta this weekend. I will steer clear of their table


That would be wise. Don't be led in by their lies.


----------



## Igot99problems

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> That would be wise. Don't be led in by their lies.


Yeah the vendor name is USA frog-us dart frog. That's the same people right?


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yes. They have had many names. When you build your business by spreading false information you need to hide who you are. You should take a minute and read through this thread some. After a few pages you will find out what they are.


----------



## Jeremy M

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have nothing to add to the current topic of discussion as I've long since grown tired of hearing about the latest slander; I'd just like to draw peoples' attention to a possible misleading observation. I get that people want to keep this thread popular so that newcomers can be warned, and they do so by commenting often and rating it high. But this also results in the bold words "Dart Frog Warehouse" almost always being present on the homepage or new posts section, and a five star rating right next to it. If one were to see the name in association with the rating and not read the thread, the takeaway message would be that it's a simply smashing, top-notch business. I recommend we all rate the thread as low as possible, as I believe the immediate connection between name brand and rating will be stronger than a high-rated thread resulting in a thorough reading of 29 pages of text. I know I wouldn't buy from a company that's been rated one star.


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Are they even worthy of a star?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The rating isn't for the company, it's just a rating for this thread. I doubt many would be confused by that distinction.


----------



## Frog Town

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Igot99problems said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but why is there every type morph of ball python (even scaleless). but these guys are considered evil for doing it with frogs?? Completely honest question from a noob to the hobby.


Look at the picture below. It's a cross between a Cobalt and a Auratus. This is what Dartfrog Warehouse creates. Would you pay good money for that frog?

http://terrariebutikken.com/grafik/hybrid3.jpg

There is beauty in the original frog and it shouldn't be tampered with. Every morning when I feed my D. Leucomelas I just sit there and stare at them and admire the contrast between their black and yellow bodies. I've never been able to figure out why people line breed other than trying to drum up business.

The problem is that Dartfrog Warehouse aren't breaking any laws, although what they do is considered unethical. Talking about them will help an unexperienced beginner understand the importance of buying good quality frogs from reputable breeders.

Also...line breeding is one thing and cross breeding another.


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Igot99problems said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but why is there every type morph of ball python (even scaleless). but these guys are considered evil for doing it with frogs?? Completely honest question from a noob to the hobby.


I'm going to say something here that doesn't make me a lot of friends in a lot of reptile circles. But in all honesty, the ball python hobby is NOT what the dart frog hobby should ever aspire to be. Even leaving out the issues I have with the housing, etc. that I take issue with regarding many large breeders, the fact that these animals are bred with known neurological issues simply for the sake of profit is EXACTLY the direction this may easily start going if the high ethical standards this portion of the hobby has upheld so far are not kept paramount. The two biggest morph games right now are ball pythons and leopard geckos, and both contain lines of animals that are openly known to possess neurological issues, but are bred anyway because they are profitable.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dravenxavier said:


> I'm going to say something here that doesn't make me a lot of friends in a lot of reptile circles. But in all honesty, the ball python hobby is NOT what the dart frog hobby should ever aspire to be. Even leaving out the issues I have with the housing, etc. that I take issue with regarding many large breeders, the fact that these animals are bred with known neurological issues simply for the sake of profit is EXACTLY the direction this may easily start going if the high ethical standards this portion of the hobby has upheld so far are not kept paramount. The two biggest morph games right now are ball pythons and leopard geckos, and both contain lines of animals that are openly known to possess neurological issues, but are bred anyway because they are profitable.


*THANK YOU!* Your right, you might not make the most friends with that post, but I'm sending a friend request right after I post this. The ethics of breeding ball pythons and leopard geckos is the only reason I avoid those communities and DFW is essentially applying those standards to the dart hobby. I find that unacceptable, irresponsible and truly sad. I do what I can to better the hobby when I can through responsible breeding practices and by supporting those who uphold those same responsible breeding standards. 

If a certain trait is detrimental to the overall health of the animal I couldn't care less if it made it look pretty. Anyone who puts aesthetic appeal over health real needs to rethink their ethics. 

John


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If everybody else is doing it, why shouldn't we? 

BTW, breeding for scaleless reptiles is cruel IMHO


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

There are already 2 camps, a save the enviroment group & an exotic pet group.

The warehouse guys are hammerd for "branding/new names" to separate a mixed frog that was bred "for health, looks, and temperment" in their words......

pretty clear what they are trying


attached pic frog of their's is pretty cool you must admit, even if its not a "wild line"


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> The warehouse guys are hammerd for "branding/new names" to separate a mixed frog that was bred "for health, looks, and temperment" in their words......


The problem with that idea is that when we look at the mindless pseud-scientific drivel on their page... we can say with a considerable level of confidence that they are only actually accomplishing 1 of those 3 things. Also, I'm not even sure another one of those is even possible.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

the only way to know is buy their frogs and see 1st hand, 

to speculate, and have opinons is all well and good, just like anything, some will disagree with the WAY one gets the result, 

some run the football, play great "D" others west coast/ read option shoot out....we have playoffs to test whos ways is best ATM.....then whos best gets copied.....a frog show judges quality would put it to rest...


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> the only way to know is buy their frogs and see 1st hand,
> 
> to speculate, and have opinons is all well and good, just like anything, some will disagree with the WAY one gets the result,
> 
> some run the football, play great "D" others west coast/ read option shoot out....we have playoffs to test whos ways is best ATM.....then whos best gets copied.....a frog show judges quality would put it to rest...


Yeah, because that works so well at dog shows, gymnastics, ice skating etc. :roll eyes:

Producing tincs and auratus of good quality is a pretty easy task. The problem is they are polluting the gene pool of frogs that most of the hobby would rather not be polluted. I will now never be able to buy a frog from a person who bought his frogs from a pet/reptile store, because there is a chance that the pet store may have received frogs from USA Frogs. Even if the frogs look like a certain morph, there is no way I would be able to tell if they had mixed blood or not.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> the only way to know is buy their frogs and see 1st hand,
> 
> to speculate, and have opinons is all well and good, just like anything, some will disagree with the WAY one gets the result,
> 
> some run the football, play great "D" others west coast/ read option shoot out....we have playoffs to test whos ways is best ATM.....then whos best gets copied.....a frog show judges quality would put it to rest...


The burden of proof is on those making the claims... if they weren't too busy trademarking everything and shared their "studies" this all wouldn't be an issue. There is already a body of knowledge that suggests what they are claiming is false. That means it is their responsibility to provide the evidence to refute this, not ours. Quit trying to shift the argument, that's not how any of this works.

Also, your continued attempts to use the "buy their frogs and see 1st hand" argument is pointless. That's like telling someone "eat this bowl of strawberries that I didn't wash the pesticides off of" because you claim pesticides aren't that bad for you. Sure, those strawberries may look and taste delicious, but what are the side effects? Common knowledge (and lots of studies) dictates that ingesting high levels of pesticides are bad. Until you show me proof that this isn't the case... I'm not going to do it.


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I really dont understand this! How can even somebody buy the frogs from them? I am the noob of the noobs but normaly each normal person who has just a little respect for animals would just educate his self to do the best for the animal and before he purchase one. 
One of the first things what i learnd is that you just dont counterbreed frogs in general and if you read a little bit when you are interested in darts (which should be because you wanna get them) then you understand why not! This is insane and if i know this (actualy i do not even own any frog yet)! Who the f*** would name a tinc malibu(tm)? 
When i saw this thread i checked the side of them and when i read the first part of the homepage i was just thinking that this is just not possible how crazy they are! 
I will just go to get a few histrionica red head and a few bulls eye and counter breed them because they are the same (only the color is different or is there more?) to get super dart which is alergic against moss and sell them for millions to this "scientists".
I just cant find the right words! I would rather kill myself before i even think of buying something from them! 
These people who do not have an interest in frogs and just wanna have them they are actually the problem, if nobody would buy, they would be f*****.
I actually feel sad for those guys there! Lets support tesoros de colombia! 
Thats what the noob from austria thinks!


----------



## Igot99problems

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Whew I just read the same discussion you guys are having here but on fauna classifieds. They feel a whole lot different about the subject. Basically there stance is: if you don't like what they're doing don't buy them. They also don't like dendroboard very much. This makes me sad


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Igot99problems said:


> Whew I just read the same discussion you guys are having here but on fauna classifieds. They feel a whole lot different about the subject. Basically there stance is: if you don't like what they're doing don't buy them. They also don't like dendroboard very much. This makes me sad


Yeah, that forum isn't for gripes or dislikes. It's only for rock-solid provable rip-offs where all other recourse has been exhausted. While DFW is pretty sleazy, you have to actually be actively robbing people in the reptile community to be considered a "bad guy". It probably did more harm than good posting over there.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> attached pic frog of their's is pretty cool you must admit, even if its not a "wild line"


That frog is ugly


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The creation of these frogs just like all the ball python hybrids are just a product of pure greed. Greed and it's byproducts will never appeal to me. You are arguing with the wrong group. We will never see them as "cool". 
I would not own a frog from dfw if it and a viv were given to me, not worth the wasted space where i could put a setup with a beautiful by nature frog.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

...was that 5 minutes? ...felt like 6! 



MoCarp said:


> the only way to know is buy their frogs and see 1st hand,
> 
> to speculate, and have opinons is all well and good, just like anything, some will disagree with the WAY one gets the result,
> 
> some run the football, play great "D" others west coast/ read option shoot out....we have playoffs to test whos ways is best ATM.....then whos best gets copied.....a frog show judges quality would put it to rest...


The problems we have with this company go far beyond whether or not they produce healthy animals... 29 pages worth. But still if I claim to shoot bigfoot rummaging through my trash, or that an alien flying saucer made a water landing in my pool... I better be able to produce a body or a UFO. 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.





Igot99problems said:


> Whew I just read the same discussion you guys are having here but on fauna classifieds. They feel a whole lot different about the subject. Basically there stance is: if you don't like what they're doing don't buy them. They also don't like dendroboard very much. This makes me sad


Yea, they are more concerned about whether someone straight up ripped someone off, rather then if someone is just lying, spreading bad info and using sleazy used car salesman marketing tactics.

There are many great people over there, but the majority come from other hobbies that accept or even endorse hybrids. They basically just don't share some of our values, so they judge us based on their values... That's to be expected, but we don't want our hobby to turn into the cluster **** that some of those hobbies have.

But I confess, I'm kinda surprised that more people from hobbies that have become cluster ****'s aren't more sympathetic to our cause, and that so many are also so willing to let the bad info and sleazy marketing slide. 

To me that shows a disappointing number of people have just lowered their standards and accepted the way things are, or never cared in the first place... and there really are good reasons to care. I mean just the never being able to buy something again and be relatively sure its babies will look like the same morph/species as the parents should be a really big deal I think.

I think it is just really easy for people to fall prey to short sighted selfishness, and not consider the broader implications before they buy, then if someone speaks up the ones that didn't think or didn't care have to defend and justify it all to themselves and others, and sadly the people who don't think and/or don't care often outnumber the ones that do.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> That frog is ugly


I totally agree, and not just because it is a cross. That frog honestly doesn't look appealing to me, but that's simply personal preference....

John


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

who would put frogs in a competion? blind....judged by a panel of 5 
2 scientists in the herp field, 2 laymen say exoterra and zoomed people
and a tie breaking person with an artfull eye or celeb.

5 species

judged on
health
proper size
color/apperance
boldness or lack of
bonus point for viv design/plantings

to be held at a national herp show
say Vegas?


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> who would put frogs in a competion? blind....judged by a panel of 5
> 2 scientists in the herp field, 2 laymen say exoterra and zoomed people
> and a tie breaking person with an artfull eye or celeb.
> 
> 5 species
> 
> judged on
> health
> proper size
> color/apperance
> boldness or lack of
> bonus point for viv design/plantings
> 
> to be held at a national herp show
> say Vegas?


Stop setting up ridiculous straw man arguments. DFW is purposely mixing localities, which you can either support with your business or not. 

They are also making laughable claims that they are somehow socializing thier frogs, etc... It is all here ad nauseum on this thread. 

None of the issues being raised here require "seeing for yourself" or a Vegas frog deathmatch. Nothing you are saying is relevant to the topic....


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> who would put frogs in a competion? blind....judged by a panel of 5
> 2 scientists in the herp field, 2 laymen say exoterra and zoomed people
> and a tie breaking person with an artfull eye or celeb.
> 
> 5 species
> 
> judged on
> health
> proper size
> color/apperance
> boldness or lack of
> bonus point for viv design/plantings
> 
> to be held at a national herp show
> say Vegas?


I don't know where to start...

Why would anyone want to do this??? Why would actual scientists participate in such a thing??? There's absolutely no point.



MoCarp said:


> There are already 2 camps, a save the enviroment group & an exotic pet group.


You really don't have a firm grasp on this hobby.

I keep seeing you referring to frogs as pets, they are not pets in the traditional sense. You can't sit on your couch with them in your lap and pet them. Honestly, you shouldn't even touch them as depending on what you have on your hands you could harm them. Which is why you shouldn't treat them like pets, they are not dogs, cats, horses, or alpacas (all animals that are judged in shows). Think of frogs more like fish, they are an animal to be kept in a beautiful, naturalistic environment in your house.

Our hobby appreciates what is reflected in nature. If breeders like DFW come along and start flooding the market with hybridized frogs there will be a reaction by the hobby to import wild-caught animals to replace destroyed stock. This may be impossible in some cases, as certain countries have been closed to export, leaving the frog extinct in captivity. In other cases, further exportation of wild frogs could be detrimental to their wild population. 

Thus DFW's argument of breeding their frogs to lessen the stress on wild populations is completely backwards and counter-intuitive.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> who would put frogs in a competion? blind....judged by a panel of 5
> 2 scientists in the herp field, 2 laymen say exoterra and zoomed people
> and a tie breaking person with an artfull eye or celeb.
> 
> 5 species
> 
> judged on
> health
> proper size
> color/apperance
> boldness or lack of
> bonus point for viv design/plantings
> 
> to be held at a national herp show
> say Vegas?


Seriously wtf does that even mean?

Ok you`ve hacked another thread..now move on the next one


----------



## jdooley195

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> who would put frogs in a competion? blind....judged by a panel of 5
> 2 scientists in the herp field, 2 laymen say exoterra and zoomed people
> and a tie breaking person with an artfull eye or celeb.
> 
> 5 species
> 
> judged on
> health
> proper size
> color/apperance
> boldness or lack of
> bonus point for viv design/plantings
> 
> to be held at a national herp show
> say Vegas?


I think you're missing the point, by a lot. It's about staying true to what has naturally occurred and being able to track/prove it, that makes a frog producer great. Healthy frogs should always be in place.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm sure you've got a point.

Maybe.

I'll be [email protected] if I can figure it out.

Now, if you're saying compare their (DFW) frogs to another sources - maybe you might want to *SAY* that? Cause you don't, anywhere.

And yes, DFW would lose woefully, so why bother?

s



MoCarp said:


> who would put frogs in a competion? blind....judged by a panel of 5
> 2 scientists in the herp field, 2 laymen say exoterra and zoomed people
> and a tie breaking person with an artfull eye or celeb.
> 
> 5 species
> 
> judged on
> health
> proper size
> color/apperance
> boldness or lack of
> bonus point for viv design/plantings
> 
> to be held at a national herp show
> say Vegas?


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The implications, as stated, move far beyond any frogs one individual may buy from this company. It sets to normalize standards that are to (rightfully) be avoided, will put pressure on wild-caught frogs to maintain long-established lines, and will damage the chances of any newcomers to ever sell their frogs or offspring, as there will always be doubt to the source of their frogs no matter where they may say they came from. I do not think that various lines will disappear completely, as we have many wonderful long-established breeders who work with many of them. But it will severely limit the pool of known lines which may prove problematic later, and may leave a lot of new breeders with some very difficult frogs to sell. It's not about what their frogs look like, how big they are, or if they engage you in conversation while you watch the latest episode of The Walking Dead together. It's about its implications to the hobby as a whole, and the hobby is understandably pretty pissed about it.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> Why would anyone want to do this??? Why would actual scientists participate in such a thing??? There's absolutely no point..


To bring awareness to wild PDF issues?




Dev30ils said:


> I keep seeing you referring to frogs as pets, they are not pets in the traditional sense. You can't sit on your couch with them in your lap and pet them. Honestly, you shouldn't even touch them as depending on what you have on your hands you could harm them. Which is why you shouldn't treat them like pets, they are not dogs, cats, horses, or alpacas (all animals that are judged in shows). *Think of frogs more like fish*, they are an animal to be kept in a beautiful, naturalistic environment in your house.


Aquarium Tropical Fish Show 2014







Scott said:


> I'm sure you've got a point.
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> I'll be [email protected] if I can figure it out.
> 
> Now, if you're saying compare their (DFW) frogs to another sources - maybe you might want to *SAY* that? Cause you don't, anywhere.
> 
> And yes, DFW would lose woefully, so why bother?
> 
> s


Scott yes compare, DFW frogs to anyone else that would enter, if they "DFW" are what is said they wouldn't enter a legit event right?

the bother is to have a robust effort to breed better frogs what ever "better" is...the best will be worth far more......frankly prob be alot of breeders would fear such an event...

I would love to see something like that, push the quality envelope higher


----------



## Frog Town

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> the only way to know is buy their frogs and see 1st hand,
> 
> to speculate, and have opinons is all well and good, just like anything, some will disagree with the WAY one gets the result,
> 
> some run the football, play great "D" others west coast/ read option shoot out....we have playoffs to test whos ways is best ATM.....then whos best gets copied.....a frog show judges quality would put it to rest...



How would a frog show justify doing something unethical. I have brought up the whole Ball Python and Leopard Gecko problem before in other posts. I despise those pigs that keep ball pythons in those tiny plastic drawers. Hundreds and hundreds of breeders that will never see even an aquarium or fresh air or even be held. 

Case in point: For years I've been wanting to buy a Western Hognose snake. The standard type that is found in nature. It can't be found. Instead there is every conceivable color variation of this animal. Even a variation of another snake species patterns.

I think all this cross breeding and line breeding is actually a sign of the times. Breeders are just trying to come up with another marketing gimmick that will purvey to the simple minded snake keeper. Let's face it, most snakes are bought by young males who have been brought up in a world where there is no appreciation of the pure and simple things. They are always looking for the next big and different thing. They also like to use their animals as some sort of status symbol and parade their friends through their rooms to look at the species of ball python that no one else has.

Now, I'll admit, this one particular breeder has come up with a "Stinger Bee" and it's an incredle looking snake. I have seen it in person at a show, but I still think the natural occuring coloration is better.

I wouldn't be surprised if MoCarp is under 25. His "So What" and "No Big Deal" attitude points to it. If he isn't then he should really think about the implications of what people like DFW are doing.

I forgot to add that I'm also against "Designer Chondros". I hate them and I think they're ugly. I think the natural occuring color is perfect, no matter what the location.


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> who would put frogs in a competion? blind....judged by a panel of 5
> 2 scientists in the herp field, 2 laymen say exoterra and zoomed people
> and a tie breaking person with an artfull eye or celeb.
> 
> 5 species
> 
> judged on
> health
> proper size
> color/apperance
> boldness or lack of
> bonus point for viv design/plantings
> 
> to be held at a national herp show
> say Vegas?


Uh, what about creating names for frogs for sale on Kingsnake and not disclosing on their ads they are hybrids....


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> To bring awareness to wild PDF issues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aquarium Tropical Fish Show 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott yes compare, DFW frogs to anyone else that would enter, if they "DFW" are what is said they wouldn't enter a legit event right?
> 
> the bother is to have a robust effort to breed better frogs what ever "better" is...the best will be worth far more......frankly prob be alot of breeders would fear such an event...
> 
> I would love to see something like that, push the quality envelope higher


I suppose you could use a frog show to bring attention to wild issues, but I can't say I'm in favor of trotting out frogs just for that purpose. It is a necessary evil when you sell them at shows, and incorporating a frog beauty contest might be done without subjecting them to more unnecessary stress, but I agree with the others. You seemed to have missed the point, and none of us here are against breeding healthier frogs.

Can or does USAdart produce healthy frogs? The animals in pics I've seen look healthy for the most part, but they make extraordinary claims about the health and safety of their frogs, while poo poo'ing others and alluding to vast conspiracies. FINE... PROVE IT.

Where are the test results? Where are the billing receipts for 50 gallon drums of pancur, metronidazole, and other medications you'd need to treat 6000+ frogs so that they'd be as disease and parasite free as USAdart would have us believe? Where are the test results that show no toxic peptides, no diseases that can be passed to other animals or even humans? Are these frogs immaculately conceived in sterile clean rooms? If they're gonna stamp it "SAFE", and make the bold claims they do, then they need to prove they're not just blowing smoke up our butts. A pic of a healthy looking frog doesn't reveal if it is truly "SAFE".

They make the extraordinary claims, so the extraordinary burden of proof is on them, and again... the frog health issue is only one aspect of our larger argument against them. 

If you've got an argument that justifies this lack of proof, the lies they told, the BS pseudoscience, and the sleazy marketing tactics... then by all means, *present it now.*


----------



## Woodsman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

My original post here was removed by Scott, as well as all comments related to it. There is a feeding frenzy going on here that's actually kind of disgusting. Don't like somebody's frogs, just be an adult (if you are an adult and not 13) and don't buy them. Righteous indignation is bunk (can I use the word "bunk" on Dendroboard? I guess we'll soon find out.)


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> My original post here was removed by Scott, as well as all comments related to it. There is a feeding frenzy going on here that's actually kind of disgusting. Don't like somebody's frogs, just be an adult (if you are an adult and not 13) and don't buy them. Righteous indignation is bunk (can I use the word "bunk" on Dendroboard? I guess we'll soon find out.)


Its not that we don't like their frogs(Don't, but thats not the point). Its the fact that they are trying to destroy what many have fought to keep pure for decades. Its about them bashing every person they have come across that doesn't conform to their ways. Is about the fact that they bend truth to further their own agenda. They say that all breeders a sub par compared to them yet all of there frogs came from independent breeders like many you see here. You as a breeder should be bothered by them as well. 


If you don't like what is being said here why bother read through it and post. Just follow your own advise and move on.


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Can or does USAdart produce healthy frogs? The animals in pics I've seen look healthy for the most part, but they make extraordinary claims about the health and safety of their frogs, while poo poo'ing others and alluding to vast conspiracies. FINE... PROVE IT.
> 
> Where are the test results? Where are the billing receipts for 50 gallon drums of pancur, metronidazole, and other medications you'd need to treat 6000+ frogs so that they'd be as disease and parasite free as USAdart would have us believe? Where are the test results that show no toxic peptides, no diseases that can be passed to other animals or even humans? Are these frogs immaculately conceived in sterile clean rooms? If they're gonna stamp it "SAFE", and make the bold claims they do, then they need to prove they're not just blowing smoke up our butts. A pic of a healthy looking frog doesn't reveal if it is truly "SAFE".
> 
> They make the extraordinary claims, so the extraordinary burden of proof is on them, and again... the frog health issue is only one aspect of our larger argument against them.
> 
> If you've got an argument that justifies this lack of proof, the lies they told, the BS pseudoscience, and the sleazy marketing tactics... then by all means, *present it now.*


I'm fairly new to darts, 1 year now and did extreme research before jumping in, I first came accross DFW reading about them on Faunaclasified.. it didn't take me long to realize how bad DFW is for the hobby, even tried to voice concerns on that site, as mentioned, it was a lost cause..the few there that have a full time job replying to posts did not want to take the time and read the entire posts here..

but from the quote above, I think they prove themselves wrong in all their claims.. THEY have only been doing it for what ?? 2 years now versus decades that some of the best hobbiest have been doing it, with expert studies that keep proving them wrong... How can they even claim their frogs are healthier, live longer etc etc.. at the most they've kept them alive for 1 year..

to me it's a no brainer, stay away from them and hope they vanish sooner than later


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> My original post here was removed by Scott, as well as all comments related to it. There is a feeding frenzy going on here that's actually kind of disgusting. Don't like somebody's frogs, just be an adult (if you are an adult and not 13) and don't buy them. Righteous indignation is bunk (can I use the word "bunk" on Dendroboard? I guess we'll soon find out.)


So just let the lies, BS pseudoscience, preying on the most uninformed, and generally sleazy marketing tactics slide, huh?

This quote comes to mind...

*"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."*

You're really OK with these being the people that inform and influence newcomers to the hobby?

I'm broke and actually think hybrids and stuff are interesting, but I have not yet let a desire for cheap frogs and something interesting that could be harmful to the greater hobby overwhelm my sense of ethics and morality. I can tolerate the occasional person creating the occasional hybrid or mixed morph frog out ignorance and/or selfish desire, if they are at least responsible enough not to disseminate them into the hobby, but on a massive commercial scale by people of IMO questionable ethics? ...NO.

They can't do what they do without endangering the integrity of every frog species/morph they work with in this hobby. Plus they IMO seem to have very little in the way of integrity, so even if a designer dart age is inevitable, I sure as hell don't want these to be the people that usher it in. 

Selfish desires satiated, dirt cheap trash frogs, genetic integrity destroyed, lies, pseudoscience, and sleazy marketing the norm... *Welcome to the dart frog hobby of the future.*

...brought to you by the selfishness, silence and apathy of others.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'll give you credit for speaking up in the face of overwhelming opposition, but I absolutely think you are wrong and must not understand the true implications and ramifications of what they are doing and of letting it pass without opposition. The alternative is less flattering.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> I suppose you could use a frog show to bring attention to wild issues, but I can't say I'm in favor of trotting out frogs just for that purpose.[/u][/b]


I think a standard size "display viv" say 18/18/18 with a single or pair of frogs would work..not having a "bench showing" of said frogs



Dendro Dave said:


> but they make extraordinary claims about the health and safety of their frogs, while poo poo'ing others and alluding to vast conspiracies. FINE... PROVE IT.
> 
> 
> They make the extraordinary claims, so the extraordinary burden of proof is on them, and again... the frog health issue is only one aspect of our larger argument against them.
> 
> [/u][/b]


I agree, but how? a show would but their best for all the world to see...hard to hide anything under the light of a very public scrutiny




Dendro Dave said:


> If you've got an argument that justifies this lack of proof, the lies they told, the BS pseudoscience, and the sleazy marketing tactics... then by all means, *present it now.*


I don't have any "proof" or if there are others "even on this forum" who engage in the same types of practices albeit quiet less public of what they do...



Frog Town said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if MoCarp is under 25. His "So What" and "No Big Deal" attitude points to it.


I am 54 and own my own Business, went to university to be a wildlife biologist, yet like many fell into a better paying avocation.
I don't have a "no big deal" attitude..quite the opposit.
there are other more "reputable" vendors on this bord who will "stick it to you" for a profit. Caveat emptor "kæviːɑːt ˈɛmptɔr" Latin for "Let the buyer beware"


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You havent dealt with many of the vendors here have you. I have spoke with many of them and I have yet to find one who wasn't upstanding.
I challenge you to name one vendor here that has tried to "stick it to you". Not so random member but a true vendor. Not one of them has a business but on nothing but lies. If they did they wouldn't be here and have a strong enough client list to stay.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Replies in blue cuz its hard to seperate the quotes while typing from a phone.


;2170322 said:


> I think a standard size "display viv" say 18/18/18 with a single or pair of frogs would work..not having a "bench showing" of said frogs
> 
> That might be better then deli cups, but you still have to carry the tank in and out, and may have more need to handle them. Basically taking animals to a show is a lot of stress on them, I just don't wanna see more piled on.
> 
> I agree, but how? a show would but their best for all the world to see...hard to hide anything under the light of a very public scrutiny
> 
> A show wouldn't help unless there was a vet there, tests were done and we all waited around for the results, Or they do a live dissection. Beauty can be an Indicator of health, but without more then appearance evaluated nothing is really laid to rest.
> 
> 
> I don't have any "proof" or if there are others "even on this forum" who engage in the same types of practices albeit quiet less public of what they do...
> 
> I'm having a lil trouble following you here, but I do know they don't seem to have any to backup their extraordinary claims, and that is a problem for us.
> 
> I am 54 and own my own Business, went to university to be a wildlife biologist, yet like many fell into a better paying avocation.
> I don't have a "no big deal" attitude..quite the opposit.
> there are other more "reputable" vendors on this bord who will "stick it to you" for a profit. Caveat emptor "kæviːɑːt ˈɛmptɔr" Latin for "Let the buyer beware"


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Regarding all of this "frog show" business. This would actually do little to speak to the quality of their frogs overall. If they do, indeed, have several thousand frogs, then taking 5-6 really nice fat ones (perhaps even ones originally purchased from others in the first place) and putting them up for scrutiny would be quite easy. This is, again, completely ignoring the fact that no one here is really concerned with their quality, but rather their ethics and long term consequences on the hobby and established captive lines. Looking at frogs in a box, no matter how many, will not change that.

From my understanding, they do not allow visits to their facility, and when they did, they required signing a confidentiality agreement. In a hobby where many breeders can't wait to show off their setups and successes, this screams sketchy in and of itself. I'm sure there are plenty of breeders on here that if I asked, would be more than willing to share information and pictures of their setups, or allow a quick tour and talk some frogs.



MoCarp said:


> I think a standard size "display viv" say 18/18/18 with a single or pair of frogs would work..not having a "bench showing" of said frogs
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but how? a show would but their best for all the world to see...hard to hide anything under the light of a very public scrutiny
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have any "proof" or if there are others "even on this forum" who engage in the same types of practices albeit quiet less public of what they do...
> 
> 
> 
> I am 54 and own my own Business, went to university to be a wildlife biologist, yet like many fell into a better paying avocation.
> I don't have a "no big deal" attitude..quite the opposit.
> there are other more "reputable" vendors on this bord who will "stick it to you" for a profit. Caveat emptor "kæviːɑːt ˈɛmptɔr" Latin for "Let the buyer beware"


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

All I hear is "a show won't work"

yet its what they do, dogs ..cats..fish..you name it

if you have a better way to quantify quality then step up.

If not, don't throw rocks at the way other critters get judged...

if DFW breeds crap...do better...but be ready to step up and go head to head with results.. from what I can tell Sean K. Stewart is top dog....

I would love to see who is best..I'd buy their stuff....

till then...


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> All I hear is "a show won't work"
> 
> yet its what they do, dogs ..cats..fish..you name it


Keep setting up straw men and I will keep dragging this back on topic....

The issues with DFW are combining morphs and localities against the wishes of most in the hobby.

Outrageous claims are being made that only their frogs are safe (whatever that is supposed to mean), that they are socialized through training, that they live longer, etc...

Please explain how a show will address any of these concerns. I am coming to the conclusion that you are some combination or trolling, right fighting and/or somehow involved with DFW. 

I have been in the corporate world for 25 years and recognize a sales pitch when I see one...


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> All I hear is "a show won't work"
> 
> yet its what they do, dogs ..cats..fish..you name it
> 
> if you have a better way to quantify quality then step up.
> 
> If not, don't throw rocks at the way other critters get judged...
> 
> if DFW breeds crap...do better...but be ready to step up and go head to head with results.. from what I can tell Sean K. Stewart is top dog....
> 
> I would love to see who is best..I'd buy their stuff....
> 
> till then...


I just went over some of the difficulties of having a show that actually told us something about frog health. Sorry if you don't wanna hear it, and you still seem to be missing the point that our argument with them is about a lot more then if they breed healthy frogs. I think I've said that 3 times, and others have to, but after it being said so often and going over why a show would accomplish little, all we hear from you is ... "Show! Show! Show!"


----------



## Moghue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> I just went over some of the difficulties of having a show that actually told us something about frog health. Sorry if you don't wanna hear it, and you still seem to be missing the point that our argument with them is about a lot more then if they breed healthy frogs. I think I've said that 3 times, and others have to, but after it being said so often and going over why a show would accomplish little, all we hear from you is ... "Show! Show! Show!"



I couldnt agree with you more Dendro. It seems to me he just either doesnt get it or does get it but doesnt care that they are hurting the hobby. A show will do absolutly nothing.


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I wanna have a show too, a nice necklace around the neck and some tiny jackets with fake diamonds would look awesome too! May i can try to train them to lift a leg or something! I like that idea! And the best frog trainer will get a smuggled lehmanni from colombia! Yeahhhh


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> My original post here was removed by Scott, as well as all comments related to it. There is a feeding frenzy going on here that's actually kind of disgusting. Don't like somebody's frogs, just be an adult (if you are an adult and not 13) and don't buy them. Righteous indignation is bunk (can I use the word "bunk" on Dendroboard? I guess we'll soon find out.)


Right, because it is just that simple.... 

Your comment was probably removed because it was insulting and abusive and as childish as you accuse those here of commenting against USA frog as being.

Because of your bias, you see righteous indignation and a feeding frenzy.

What is actually going on is a strong and spirited defense of our hobby.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Enough about "shows". It's got nothing to do with the topic at hand.

And enough with smarmy responses as well please.

I'd like to get back to not having to read this thread - thank you.

s


----------



## Woodsman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If you are defending me as a frogger, please don't Doug. I'm a big boy now. After 30 pages of this "discussion", one might believe that someone might have come up with a plan to "defend" the hobby. In lieu of that, this just looks like bitching to me (I guess I'll find out if I can say the word "bitching" on Db). There is a lot of fire here, but no light.

Richard.



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Right, because it is just that simple....
> 
> Your comment was probably removed because it was insulting and abusive and as childish as you accuse those here of commenting against USA frog as being.
> 
> Because of your bias, you see righteous indignation and a feeding frenzy.
> 
> What is actually going on is a strong and spirited defense of our hobby.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Richard - it is what it is.

A Warning Beacon - and it has _plenty of light_.

Sorry you don't think so - please move along if you don't like the content.

s


Woodsman said:


> If you are defending me as a frogger, please don't Doug. I'm a big boy now. After 30 pages of this "discussion", one might believe that someone might have come up with a plan to "defend" the hobby. In lieu of that, this just looks like bitching to me (I guess I'll find out if I can say the word "bitching" on Db). There is a lot of fire here, but no light.
> 
> Richard.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> If you are defending me as a frogger, please don't Doug. I'm a big boy now. After 30 pages of this "discussion", one might believe that someone might have come up with a plan to "defend" the hobby. In lieu of that, this just looks like bitching to me (I guess I'll find out if I can say the word "bitching" on Db). There is a lot of fire here, but no light.
> 
> Richard.


I'm defending our hobby, not you. I'll do wether you like it or not.

We actually do have a plan, this thread is part of it. It's been covered already. Wether you're willing to accept it or not, is irrelevant. We have had, and continue to have an impact. This thread raises awareness. Countless people have thanked us for the information people have provided here in helping them steer clear of USAFrogs and hybrids in general. Our plan does have impact, it is working.

I do see what you're trying to do here, and that is turn this into an off topic pissing match, which would likely get this thread locked again, which is I suspect your goal. As such, I'll just ignore any further baiting from you and let the mods handle it as you seem to enjoy antagonizing them.

Feel free though to actually offer something constructive to the discussion.


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

MoCarp is starting to sound more like one of those "scientists" I referred to a few days back.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> If you are defending me as a frogger, please don't Doug. I'm a big boy now. After 30 pages of this "discussion", one might believe that someone might have come up with a plan to "defend" the hobby. In lieu of that, this just looks like bitching to me (I guess I'll find out if I can say the word "bitching" on Db). There is a lot of fire here, but no light.
> 
> Richard.


You've given us your point of view about this thread, we've addressed your points and you even "liked" my reply to you, but what I've not heard from you are answers to my questions why we should just let them slide and why you seem to be OK with these people getting free reign to inform and influence newcomers? 

Informing others and a boycott basically is the plan. If you've got a better idea, please share, but if you're just going to advocate silence without explaining why, then I suggest leading by example.


----------



## Woodsman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I think the bigger issues for the hobby in general are the large number of people breeding frogs (thinking they can make a "killing" in dart frogs) and driving frog prices down (making it more difficult for captive breeders to prosper), and the unsustainable removal of thousands of dendrobatids from nature, most of which die miserable deaths in transit.

If everyone supports wild-collected frogs and can make a huge profit off them, that's the herd mentality that is having an actual negative impact on these CITES II animals. I don't mind at all standing alone in my views (whatever they are), even when the pack disagrees.

The bottom line is that I have enjoyed the 16 years I have kept dart frogs and I have really enjoyed the people I have met through the hobby. I just don't like the whole "mob" scene, which usually ends up being myopic and counterproductive.

I love you guys and hope I haven't left you with any lingering distastes in your mouths. I really need to get back to this whole dying thing I have going.

Richard.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> I think the bigger issues for the hobby in general are the large number of people breeding frogs (thinking they can make a "killing" in dart frogs) and driving frog prices down (making it more difficult for captive breeders to prosper), and the unsustainable removal of thousands of dendrobatids from nature, most of which die miserable deaths in transit.
> 
> If everyone supports wild-collected frogs and can make a huge profit off them, that's the herd mentality that is having an actual negative impact on these CITES II animals. I don't mind at all standing alone in my views (whatever they are), even when the pack disagrees.
> 
> The bottom line is that I have enjoyed the 16 years I have kept dart frogs and I have really enjoyed the people I have met through the hobby. I just don't like the whole "mob" scene, which usually ends up being myopic and counterproductive.
> 
> I love you guys and hope I haven't left you with any lingering distastes in your mouths. I really need to get back to this whole dying thing I have going.
> 
> Richard.


Thats great, I can pretty much get behind all that except USAdart sells frogs dirt cheap, and regardless if most people want nothing to do with them, those frogs will find their way into the hobby tainting the old lines so we have no idea what we'll be getting, and in frustration people will turn to more WC frogs, possibly even smuggled frogs if that's the only suource new untainted blood. So usadart is driving frog prices down and flooding the market with frogs we consider tainted, which will in turn drive demand back up for WC, probably even increase smuggling.

So from most of what I just read you should be as outraged as us!
Just not comfortable expressing It to usadart?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No worries Richard, this thread has gotten to us all at one time or another.

As far as your dying thing....no hurry


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> I think the bigger issues for the hobby in general are the large number of people breeding frogs (thinking they can make a "killing" in dart frogs) and driving frog prices down (making it more difficult for captive breeders to prosper), and the unsustainable removal of thousands of dendrobatids from nature, most of which die miserable deaths in transit.
> 
> If everyone supports wild-collected frogs and can make a huge profit off them, that's the herd mentality that is having an actual negative impact on these CITES II animals. I don't mind at all standing alone in my views (whatever they are), even when the pack disagrees.


I can get behind this and agree with you 100%. These are completely valid issues and worthy of considerable attention, but so is DFW/USAFrog. What they do even indirectly ties in to some of these issues as we have discussed here. To suggest that there are other bigger problems, so we shouldn't address this one is a fallacious argument though.



> The bottom line is that I have enjoyed the 16 years I have kept dart frogs and I have really enjoyed the people I have met through the hobby. I just don't like the whole "mob" scene, which usually ends up being myopic and counterproductive.


I see a group of concerned and informed hobbyists fighting strongly for what they believe in.



> I love you guys and hope I haven't left you with any lingering distastes in your mouths. I really need to get back to this whole dying thing I have going.
> 
> Richard.


I'm not gonna lie to you, your initial comments which I won't repeat since they were deleted by a mob were out of line. I'm glad you've taken a different tone. We all are really on the same team here, we just disagree I think about how to go about taking care of this problem.

There is no strong animosity here, just a very stern disagreement with your assessment of how we are handling them. I've heard about your personal health issues and wish you all the best really.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> driving frog prices down (making it more difficult for captive breeders to prosper),
> Richard.


DING DING DING! give him a Cigar!

hence the F.U.D.* on both sides of the DFW issue

"The idea, of course, is to persuade buyers to go with their frogs rather than with competitors’ frogs. The implicit coercion was traditionally accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck with "proper bred frogs", but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors frogs even the very hobby itself!. "the term has become generalized to refer to any kind of disinformation used as a competitive weapon."*


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> DING DING DING! give him a Cigar!
> 
> hence the F.U.D.* on both sides of the DFW issue
> 
> "The idea, of course, is to persuade buyers to go with their frogs rather than with competitors’ frogs. The implicit coercion was traditionally accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck with "proper bred frogs", but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors frogs even the very hobby itself!. "the term has become generalized to refer to any kind of disinformation used as a competitive weapon."*


Hahahaha! Nope, not even close. Stop drinking their koolaide.

I've personally given away frogs to people who were considering a purchase from USAFrog. Banded Luecs and Auratus.

You'ld like to try assign a nefarious purpose to our criticism, but such suggestions collapse under scrutiny.


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Woodsman said:


> I think the bigger issues for the hobby in general are the large number of people breeding frogs (thinking they can make a "killing" in dart frogs) and driving frog prices down (making it more difficult for captive breeders to prosper), and the unsustainable removal of thousands of dendrobatids from nature, most of which die miserable deaths in transit.


For the most part I agree with you, rampant breeding is a major problem in this hobby. This stems from the widespread mentality that breeding success = proper care and healthy frogs. Although, as has been stated many times on this forum, even sick and dying frogs will breed (especially if they perceive it as their last chance to further their genes.) We need to correct the mentality that breeding success = proper care & health, and teach people to care for their animals properly first. Breeding in this hobby should really try to mirror the captive breeding programs of zoos.

The problem is, folks like DFW just exacerbate the problem 10 fold. 



MoCarp said:


> DING DING DING! give him a Cigar!
> 
> hence the F.U.D.* on both sides of the DFW issue
> 
> "The idea, of course, is to persuade buyers to go with their frogs rather than with competitors’ frogs. The implicit coercion was traditionally accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck with "proper bred frogs", but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors frogs even the very hobby itself!. "the term has become generalized to refer to any kind of disinformation used as a competitive weapon."*


I have never once sold a frog, so then why do I hate DFW????


----------



## ZenMonkey

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> I'll pull up that stat for you zen monkey. Remember it's an average taking in mortality,improper,care,transport loss,even tads that die before total morph.



Just out of curiosity, did big_frog (or anyone else) ever provide a valid source for his claim of one year as the average lifespan of a dart frog in captivity?

(I think I know the answer, but benefit of the doubt and all.)


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZenMonkey said:


> Just out of curiosity, did big_frog (or anyone else) ever provide a valid source for his claim of one year as the average lifespan of a dart frog in captivity?
> 
> (I think I know the answer, but benefit of the doubt and all.)


You know what they say about statistics? 78.2% of them are made up....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So just a random observation.

On 10/10/14 I posted that USA Frog Was Attending Repticon Atlanta

Their facebook page lists USA Frog as a vendor on a post 10/4/14

Shortly thereafter, a notable vendor and sponsor of this site, who was absent from the 10/4/14 vendor list was added to a new list posted 10/15/14.

Now this may just be a coincidence.....

As of today though,



USAFrog said:


> NEXT Trade Show
> We have some very exciting things in the works right now. As such, we will not be attending any trade shows in the near future, but we will have trade show pricing every weekend, very LOW cost shipping, and freebies!


Looks like they've pulled out. I've inquired with repticon for more info.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I saw that a few day`s ago as well Doug.

Interesting...very


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just checked, and they are on the exhibitor list.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



epiphytes etc. said:


> I just checked, and they are on the exhibitor list.


Right, but, they pulled down the notice on their(USA Frog) website saying they would be attending Repticon Atlanta and replaced it with a statement saying they wouldn't be vending any shows, basically the statement I quoted earlier. This change is very recent so Repticon may not have updated their list. Could also be a diversion by USA Frog to make us think they're not going. Either way, they've got a good vendor at this show to compete with their nonsense now if they do vend. I know a few people who will be disappointed if they can't get an autograph from and take a selfie with Vic Ruttan and his Jazz Hands.


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Most of the promoters for herp shows don't update their vendor lists very frequently, so there is still a good chance that they won't be at the show, even if they are on the list. If you are in the area, you should still be vigilant, as DFW has been known to "bend" the truth.

Edit: Hell, they could even be vending the same show under an assumed name to stay under the radar. Just look for the table full of less attractive, "Americanized" dart frogs.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> as DFW has been known to "bend" the truth.


Yea, bend it into a figure 8


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have it on reliable authority that they did not attend Repticon Atlanta.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Yea, bend it into a figure 8


More like a cursive FU....

I guess that is good and bad news Doug. Its a good thing because they didn't have the chance to sell to people there, bad because no one here still can't get a look at their superior frogs rolleyes or even talk to the guys in person.....

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I bet word has gotten around well enough by now that it's gonna be really akward for them if they show up anywhere to vend. I would not wanna be in their shoes... They made their own bed though.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

White Plains is a great stop Rick.

I`m sure your inventory must be what..70,000 by now?
I`ve read all your "super awesome'' reviews, I`m sure you can do some business up here.


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Frog Town said:


> How would a frog show justify doing something unethical. I have brought up the whole Ball Python and Leopard Gecko problem before in other posts. I despise those pigs that keep ball pythons in those tiny plastic drawers. Hundreds and hundreds of breeders that will never see even an aquarium or fresh air or even be held.
> 
> Case in point: For years I've been wanting to buy a Western Hognose snake. The standard type that is found in nature. It can't be found. Instead there is every conceivable color variation of this animal. Even a variation of another snake species patterns.
> 
> I think all this cross breeding and line breeding is actually a sign of the times. Breeders are just trying to come up with another marketing gimmick that will purvey to the simple minded snake keeper. Let's face it, most snakes are bought by young males who have been brought up in a world where there is no appreciation of the pure and simple things. They are always looking for the next big and different thing. They also like to use their animals as some sort of status symbol and parade their friends through their rooms to look at the species of ball python that no one else has.
> 
> Now, I'll admit, this one particular breeder has come up with a "Stinger Bee" and it's an incredle looking snake. I have seen it in person at a show, but I still think the natural occuring coloration is better.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if MoCarp is under 25. His "So What" and "No Big Deal" attitude points to it. If he isn't then he should really think about the implications of what people like DFW are doing.
> 
> I forgot to add that I'm also against "Designer Chondros". I hate them and I think they're ugly. I think the natural occuring color is perfect, no matter what the location.


Well I guess your in the minority on liking these since they are so popular otherwise people wouldn't breed them.. My personal opinion is that any color morph or hybrid that is breed helps keep another animal from being taken from the wild. This can go for PDF's too. If USA frog mass breeds non pure lines and sells to the masses and it helps prevent importation of wild frogs them more power to them.. A lot of people just want pretty frogs to look at (like fish) and don't care about lineage or breeding


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> If USA frog mass breeds non pure lines and sells to the masses and it helps prevent importation of wild frogs them more power to them.. A lot of people just want pretty frogs to look at (like fish) and don't care about lineage or breeding


Don`t insult my intelligence with this asinine statement.

Those clowns don`t even know where a rainforest is, and they could care less about wild frogs.
The have one goal, to spew their garbage to anyone who doesn`t know any better.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Well I guess your in the minority on liking these since they are so popular otherwise people wouldn't breed them.. My personal opinion is that any color morph or hybrid that is breed helps keep another animal from being taken from the wild. This can go for PDF's too. If USA frog mass breeds non pure lines and sells to the masses and it helps prevent importation of wild frogs them more power to them.. A lot of people just want pretty frogs to look at (like fish) and don't care about lineage or breeding


Widespread captive availability at reasonable prices reduces pressure on wild stock. Hybridization has nothing to do with it. 

In this particular niche of the herp hobby, what DFW is doing has the opposite effect. The second I see a species on thier website, the pool of people I would purchase them from shrinks immediately. 

If you are truly worried about about pressure on wild populations I wound encourage you to rethink this....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Well I guess your in the minority on liking these since they are so popular otherwise people wouldn't breed them..


Except they're not popular at all. In fact they're very unpopular.

USA Frog is the ONLY commercial enterprise breeding them, all the other *RESPECTABLE* breeders refuse to do this for very good reasons previously outlined.

They're doing this specifically to spite the Dart Frog Hobby, they've admitted as much. They're trying, unsuccessfully, to create a market for something nobody wants.



> My personal opinion is that any color morph or hybrid that is breed helps keep another animal from being taken from the wild. This can go for PDF's too.


You're obviously entitled to your OPINION, however; the science doesn't support this statement. What we actually know is that uncertainty about line purity actually drives importation. What USA Frog is doing will actually have the opposite effect of what YOU THINK.




> If USA frog mass breeds non pure lines and sells to the masses and it helps prevent importation of wild frogs them more power to them.. A lot of people just want pretty frogs to look at (like fish) and don't care about lineage or breeding


No, not more power to them. Because it is harmful to the hobby and has the opposite effect on wild importation.

Maybe some people just want pretty frogs, and there are already enough pretty morphs to go around. I think you are naive in suggesting that people don't care though, I've yet to meet a person(I haven't personally met the washers) that, when presented with the ramifications for wild populations and the hobby, caused by what people like the Wascher's are doing, who are not concerned. If people just want pretty frogs, they can choose from the hundreds of varieties already available. There is no reason beyond *GREED* to create mixed variety/hybrids, especially when presented with the negative ramifications.


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Well I guess your in the minority on liking these since they are so popular otherwise people wouldn't breed them.. My personal opinion is that any color morph or hybrid that is breed helps keep another animal from being taken from the wild. This can go for PDF's too. If USA frog mass breeds non pure lines and sells to the masses and it helps prevent importation of wild frogs them more power to them.. A lot of people just want pretty frogs to look at (like fish) and don't care about lineage or breeding


Except these are not like other reptiles. These are not the "rough and tumble" species that prevail in the morph-dominated hobbies. Subjected to the same lack of care as most owners show their leopard geckos, bearded dragons, and ball pythons, these frogs perish, and because of that, they will remain an offset of the main reptile hobbies. Not to mention, one of the main characteristics a HUGE majority of people in those segments of the hobby look for are something that is capable of being handled, which these are obviously not (though I suppose someone should tell the Waschers that..). 

If you want to compare this to other hobbies as far as morphs decreasing demands for wild caught animals, you can look directly at the examples you provided to debunk that very concept. A normal leopard gecko, het for NOTHING, is the hardest 'morph' of all to find, yet they are needed by breeders to prove out genetic traits. People are already waiting for the next import of wild caught leopard geckos for this very reason. In fish, the same has happened with things like cichlids (particularly Malawi species) in which wild caught or F1 are highly regarded for their purity because of the level of hybridization.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> My personal opinion is that any color morph or hybrid that is breed helps keep another animal from being taken from the wild. This can go for PDF's too. If USA frog mass breeds non pure lines and sells to the masses and it helps prevent importation of wild frogs them more power to them.. A lot of people just want pretty frogs to look at (like fish) and don't care about lineage or breeding


I agree that some people that wish to own a PDF "just don't care about purity" and just want a pretty frog. DFW could fill part of that nich...I don't think they are competing(sales) with the purest natural/wildcaught crowd...but with one who breeds intro species of PDF. It is my opinion that PART of the venom toward DFW is due to driving prices down on those species a 1st time PDF buyer would buy.

Do I believe that the DFW people have manipulated information to make their goods seem better than their competion? YES! Do I think they try to bred/care to produce the healthist stock they can? I don't know anyone who bought their frogs to say ether way....just what is "reported" here.

I think that the some profit motivated people keep the strains purists would be more likely to buy, try to get those rare or new, even less tired/overbred current PDF stock imported from the wild "legal or otherwise" are more likely to press wild stocks


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I agree that some people that wish to own a PDF "just don't care about purity" and just want a pretty frog. DFW could fill part of that nich...I don't think they are competing(sales) with the purest natural/wildcaught crowd...but with one who breeds intro species of PDF. It is my opinion that PART of the venom toward DFW is due to driving prices down on those species a 1st time PDF buyer would buy.
> 
> Do I believe that the DFW people have manipulated information to make their goods seem better than their competion? YES! Do I think they try to bred/care to produce the healthist stock they can? I don't know anyone who bought their frogs to say ether way....just what is "reported" here.
> 
> I think that the some profit motivated people keep the strains purists would be more likely to buy, try to get those rare or new, even less tired/overbred current PDF stock imported from the wild "legal or otherwise" are more likely to press wild stocks


Wait, exactly who are these profit motivated people? Or are you just assuming that anyone who is breeding these things is profit motivated? Because none of the vendors and sponsors I have talked to seem to be all that motivated simply by profit.

The last part of your argument makes absolutely zero sense. Do you think that DFW breeding these hybrids and questionable locale frogs is going to diminish the demand for new, rare frogs? The beginners lured in by DFW's tactics and prices are not the crowd that would even be looking at those frogs, so what does it even matter? If anything, it might draw even more people into the "breed for profit" crowd (since last I checked, their site offered plenty of breeding encouragement) who might see these rare frogs as cash cows, and not approach them with the same sort of respect established breeders would.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dravenxavier said:


> Wait, exactly who are these profit motivated people? Or are you just assuming that anyone who is breeding these things is profit motivated? Because none of the vendors and sponsors I have talked to seem to be all that motivated simply by profit.


Years ago I raised ferrets, at that time "the 80's" you got 85-95 dollars
each, I kept 6 females, and a couple males, I was able to buy a nice bass boat selling ferret kits, never spent any "real job" money on my "hobbies"

I got lazy and foolish and sold a fellow all females (20) in one shot 
flash forward to the next breeding season, I noticed people would call about buying like always, but they wanted to pay by check "risky" or just asked price. I looked into the trifty penny shopper paper and sure enough, there was an ad offering Ferret kits for $65! undercuting me by 20 bucks!
and the number was the same guy I sold 20 females to! my drop in sales was VERY VERY noticable...I counter with a fire sale of $25 bucks and crashed the market, and got out of raising ferrets. but still kept a couple pets.

I will guarantee you, more than a couple people make "hobby" money doing this. If not I bet a few frog rooms wouldn't be so big.




dravenxavier said:


> Do you think that DFW breeding these hybrids and questionable locale frogs is going to diminish the demand for new, rare frogs?


No



dravenxavier said:


> The beginners lured in by DFW's tactics and prices are not the crowd that would even be looking at those frogs,


so your saying the experanced PDF person is?  


I was saying that the experanced PDF breeder, is the biggest threat to wild caught PDFs legal or otherwise...there I said it


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Years ago I raised ferrets, at that time "the 80's" you got 85-95 dollars
> each, I kept 6 females, and a couple males, I was able to buy a nice bass boat selling ferret kits, never spent any "real job" money on my "hobbies"
> 
> I got lazy and foolish and sold a fellow all females (20) in one shot
> flash forward to the next breeding season, I noticed people would call about buying like always, but they wanted to pay by check "risky" or just asked price. I looked into the trifty penny shopper paper and sure enough, there was an ad offering Ferret kits for $65! undercuting me by 20 bucks!
> and the number was the same guy I sold 20 females to! my drop in sales was VERY VERY noticable...I counter with a fire sale of $25 bucks and crashed the market, and got out of raising ferrets. but still kept a couple pets.


So you deliberately crashed a small animal market out of spite because someone else had better prices, or better quality kits? No wonder you side with DFW.


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Years ago I raised ferrets, at that time "the 80's" you got 85-95 dollars
> each, I kept 6 females, and a couple males, I was able to buy a nice bass boat selling ferret kits, never spent any "real job" money on my "hobbies"
> 
> I got lazy and foolish and sold a fellow all females (20) in one shot
> flash forward to the next breeding season, I noticed people would call about buying like always, but they wanted to pay by check "risky" or just asked price. I looked into the trifty penny shopper paper and sure enough, there was an ad offering Ferret kits for $65! undercuting me by 20 bucks!
> and the number was the same guy I sold 20 females to! my drop in sales was VERY VERY noticable...I counter with a fire sale of $25 bucks and crashed the market, and got out of raising ferrets. but still kept a couple pets.
> 
> I will guarantee you, more than a couple people make "hobby" money doing this. If not I bet a few frog rooms wouldn't be so big.
> 
> 
> so your saying the experanced PDF person is?
> 
> 
> I was saying that the experanced PDF breeder, is the biggest threat to wild caught PDFs legal or otherwise...there I said it


A few notes. As your ferret analogy is cute, but misguided. Ferrets are, again, an easy pet to make popular. Yes, they're work, but they reward you with play and other behaviors that make them desirable pets. The inability to ship them easily, though, also makes it a highly localized venture, to the contrary of the dart frog hobby where shipping nationally is the norm.

I've been following this for a while, and while their prices have been brought up, I have NOT seen it brought up in the context of "oh no! they're undercutting anyone so now we can't sell any frogs!" If anything, this fiasco will only benefit the established breeders, and make it harder for new hobbyists to sell any offspring. And since DFW likes to promote breeding and sells pairs, this will be a VERY big issue for any of their customers, and even worse news for any frogs they happen to produce. Clean lines and trust are what allow these frogs (who are not difficult to breed) to be an enjoyable hobby, and not a burden of ever-increasing frogs because you can't get rid of your offspring. At least not while being honest about it (<- the problem).

As for new, rare frogs, yes. The experienced keepers are the ones who will get them, and establish them in the hobby. This opens up an entire other topic which is not worth getting into in this thread, since this really should remain on topic. But if I'm not mistaken, people like those at Tesoros are working hard to help preserve these animals, using the hobby as a driving force to their preservation by bringing in desirable species in a sustainable way. There are other examples where wild collection helps the region as a whole, like Project Piaba (tropical fish, but the system works). To blanket label "new species" under the moniker of illegal trafficking is incorrect.

Project Piaba | Buy a Fish- Save a Tree


----------



## Frog Town

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Well I guess your in the minority on liking these since they are so popular otherwise people wouldn't breed them.. My personal opinion is that any color morph or hybrid that is breed helps keep another animal from being taken from the wild. This can go for PDF's too. If USA frog mass breeds non pure lines and sells to the masses and it helps prevent importation of wild frogs them more power to them.. A lot of people just want pretty frogs to look at (like fish) and don't care about lineage or breeding



You are validating what I said about Mo Carp. A lot of little kids eat boogers but that doesn't mean you should encourage them to do it.

As far as your false defense about yanking wild dart frogs out of nature - exporting dart frogs out of their native countries is strictly controlled and in most of these countries there is a complete moratorium on doing so, and native dart frog farms is another issue.

What you are failing to understand is that there is a very likely potential for these mixed breed frogs to get out into the general hobby. For instance, say a young person who is just beginning in the hobby buys frogs from DFW and hasn't come across all the issues that we have discussed. Down the road he gets good at the hobby and starts buying good quality frogs from some of the top breeders and then mixes them with the DFW frogs. Next thing you know he has about fifty froglets he intends to sell and these frogs are a cross of pure breed frogs and DFW frogs and more than likely he has been in the hobby long enough now to have come across the concerns we are discussing now. That's the problem! He's been spending a fortune on flies getting these froglets to 3-4 months and the last thing he is going to do is advise perspective buyers that some of these froglets parents are from DFW.

I don't think you really understand the problem with these frogs. It's not like these frogs are going to be bought and kept in a nice little cage to live out their life quietly with no chance of interacting with other frogs of their species.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I like how the 1 in 30-50 posts kinda for Usadartwhatevaz are mostly about us complaining so loudly, and/or amount to the person basically saying they just don't care and people might like to buy some cheap franken frogs from a BS artist. If those are the best arguments against us, I feel we're on fairly solid ground.

Most of the very few posts kinda for them tend to skip over the sleazy tactics, the big whopper they told about mixing "species or varieties", don't give much if any justification for the BS pseudoscience, nor does anyone seem to be all that concerned with the ethics of USAdart forcing quick and massive change on the hobby, for the sake of the almighty dollar and Rick's bruised ego. The most supportive posts seem to be more in the vein of "We're being to mean", rather then "USAdart are great people who love this hobby!". ...I think that is another point in our favor.

They don't exist in a vacuum.You can't have designer darts without throwing a wrench into every gene pool they touch that we work with in this hobby. If the designer frog people could have their way without screwing the rest of us and screwing up the limited pure founder stock we have to work with... then fine. 

If they could use their sleazy marketing tactics while filling new people's heads with BS pseudoscience sending them home with frogs many won't touch with a 10 foot pole, and we not be the ones who have to pick up the pieces... then fine.

...but they can't, so... NOT FINE

Seriously, why do the so few who bother to defend them by actually posting just seem to skip over most of this and focus on how butt hurt we are?

...YES, we are butt hurt.

Now tackle the ethics issues, and how we can have a designer dart frog hobby led by people willing to sling sleaze, BS and straight up lie while selling Sunkist starburst pop tarts next to pure frogs.

How do you trust these people with the fate of your hobby? 

How do you justify such incredibly low standards? 

How do you justify one person's selfish desire for a franken frog at the cost of the genetic integrity of an entire captive population?

Let's end the debate on whether or not we are butt hurt and to what degree... We are, and it's a lot.

...Now address the points made instead of just being butt hurt about how butt hurt we are, preferably with something better then "well it isn't illegal", "some people want cheap frankenfrogs", "some don't mind the sleaze and BS", and "some just don't care" ...because other then the "we're to butt hurt" strategy that's mostly what the counter arguments I've seen amount to, and that ='s just about jack crap as a real defense for USAdart or whatever alias they are operating under today.

P.S. I didn't see a 31 page thread of people freaking out when joshsfrogs and NEherp opened up, and even the DFC drama was centered around one specific person being involved with that buisness. The argument that this is about competition holds no water. I've seen this hobby welcome lots of new breeders as long as they gave 2 poops about the animals and the rest of us. Most of us want as many good sources of frogs as possible.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> So you deliberately crashed a small animal market out of spite because someone else had better prices, or better quality kits?


 Yes,spite... he had the same quality, he bought his females from me...






Dane said:


> No wonder you side with DFW.


Not on anyones side, just a student of human nature


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So what do you do, show up in this thread once a week to start s**t?

If you don`t like what`s going on take a hike.


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> so this is "your thread"?
> 
> Im posting a healthy debate


Except, you're not. You bring up topics that aren't really an issue, and ignoring everyone's legitimate concerns. Debates are great...it's part of how we advance things. But deflection does absolutely nothing.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ok, everyone. I'm no mod, but these "personal attacks" and name calling are not helping our situation as a hobby. If this continues, I would not be surprised if this thread gets locked again -- for good. I for one would like to keep this thread alive and in view for any aspiring froggers that may come across it.



I have no problem with views that are different from mine, but please people, if you are going to side with DFW, do your research. What they are doing WILL encourage further importation of dart frogs, based on previous experiences in this hobby and others. Also, I still haven't seen the longevity study big_frog said he read. It might exist, but I highly doubt its validity and it remains a poor argument at this point.



John







Sent from my T100TA using Tapatalk


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Get used to it. That's what the dedicated supporters do. Personally attack when they get in a debate. Don't worry they will then complain about you and the moderator will ban you..


Wow, REALLY! Thats terrible! 

I hate to respond to your post because I know it will just be more work for the mods, but I have to ask. How did you get this idea? Are you really that desperate to make totally unfounded claims against our moderation team? They are the guys that keep this site working smooth. How would you know this anyways? Are you speaking from experience?



MoCarp said:


> So thats how this works...


NO.


This is a great thread. Lets stop with the attacks guys. 

John


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I've had enough of this.

Next member to level any sort of personal attack at anyone (directly or indirectly) is getting banned. *The mods are all sick of babysitting this thread.* Play nice, or you can't participate in it. This goes for EVERYONE. No taylor swift references, no correcting spelling, no speculating about lifestyles/other opinions, and no publicly questioning the moderation of this thread (seriously, talk to us in private). 


If you are going to make some sort of claim... BACK IT UP with real information or with actual experience with this specific topic. Don't draw connections where they don't exist. Don't make analogies that don't hold water. If you can't follow those guidelines, *don't bother posting in this thread. *


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Did anyone see their frogs at the Atlanta Repticon ?


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dam630 said:


> Did anyone see their frogs at the Atlanta Repticon ?


Dale- 

It was mentioned somewhere up in the last burst of activity that they did not attend the show...

Scott


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Except they're not popular at all. In fact they're very unpopular.
> 
> USA Frog is the ONLY commercial enterprise breeding them, all the other *RESPECTABLE* breeders refuse to do this for very good reasons previously outlined.
> 
> They're doing this specifically to spite the Dart Frog Hobby, they've admitted as much. They're trying, unsuccessfully, to create a market for something nobody wants.
> 
> You're obviously entitled to your OPINION, however; the science doesn't support this statement. What we actually know is that uncertainty about line purity actually drives importation. What USA Frog is doing will actually have the opposite effect of what YOU THINK.
> 
> No, not more power to them. Because it is harmful to the hobby and has the opposite effect on wild importation.
> 
> Maybe some people just want pretty frogs, and there are already enough pretty morphs to go around. I think you are naive in suggesting that people don't care though, I've yet to meet a person(I haven't personally met the washers) that, when presented with the ramifications for wild populations and the hobby, caused by what people like the Wascher's are doing, who are not concerned. If people just want pretty frogs, they can choose from the hundreds of varieties already available. There is no reason beyond *GREED* to create mixed variety/hybrids, especially when presented with the negative ramifications.


He was referring to snake and gecko morphs not darts when I said they are very popular..

USA frog is commercial but, so is every other big time supplier on this site like black jungle, Josh's frogs, etc.. Does that mean we shouldn't buy from them either? 
My point is USA frog isn't targeting the HOBBY as we know it. They are trying for the masses in the commercial since such as having frogs in chain pet stores like petsmart,etc..selling to the impulse uneducated buyer..
I think everyone has done more than enough to scare any hobbiest away from them. For god sakes there's 31pages of crap in this tread alone not to mention the other threads..

I'm really suprised it's allowed to continue to this point.


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> Wow, REALLY! Thats terrible!
> 
> I hate to respond to your post because I know it will just be more work for the mods, but I have to ask. How did you get this idea? Are you really that desperate to make totally unfounded claims against our moderation team? They are the guys that keep this site working smooth. How would you know this anyways? Are you speaking from experience?
> 
> NO.
> 
> This is a great thread. Lets stop with the attacks guys.
> 
> John


Because froggy knight I was edited for posting facts and proven experience from USA frog.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Because froggy knight I was edited for posting facts and proven experience from USA frog.


What you posted is called feedback and if you had read the Terms of Service when you signed up, you have known that outside of the vendor feedback area, this is not allowed.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

There is no problem with commercial enterprise, in fact we generally welcome it. Even in the case of DFW, until they proved that the indeed intended to breed hybrids even when they said they wouldn't, and made all sorts of other unfounded claims, circulated lies, misinformation. Our problem with them has nothing to do with their commercial nature and everything to do with their other sleazy tactics. Rest assured should any of the other vendors you mentioned followed their path, we'd be on their case just as hard. I have no problem with any of the commercial breeders here, I've sent them business, because they are good, honest, responsible people who have the best interests of our shared hobby at heart. USA Frog, does not. You can continue to tow their line if you'ld like, but everyone else here realizes that what they're doing here doesn't happen in a vacuum and presents serious problems for our hobby.

As for your surprise, not only is it allowed, it is ENCOURAGED.


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

One thing I have found since entering this hobby is most of it is based on trust. Since my frogs have come from all over the states I have to have a certain amount of trust in the person Iam dealing with. Having watch this unfold I can't say I trust them in the least. They have proven again and again the they are not worthy of it. I believe that once you own frogs thier yours to do with as you please. But mass producing hybrids for sale is not the same as someone doin it at home for thier personal entertainment. I would not trust an impulse buyer who tires of his frogs and wants to get rid of them not to lie about thier origin. So what it comes down to with me is trust and passion for the hobby as a whole. As was stated before it realy shrinks the pool of people I will purchase from. I personally want as pure line as I can get. I just don't get how people don't understand the potential harm these people could do to the hobby in general. Just my $.02.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> He was referring to snake and gecko morphs not darts when I said they are very popular..
> 
> USA frog is commercial but, so is every other big time supplier on this site like black jungle, Josh's frogs, etc.. Does that mean we shouldn't buy from them either?
> My point is USA frog isn't targeting the HOBBY as we know it. They are trying for the masses in the commercial since such as having frogs in chain pet stores like petsmart,etc..selling to the impulse uneducated buyer..
> I think everyone has done more than enough to scare any hobbiest away from them. For god sakes there's 31pages of crap in this tread alone not to mention the other threads..
> 
> I'm really suprised it's allowed to continue to this point.



I pointed out there were no 30 page freak out of threads when Josh's and NEherp opened. We have no problem with large scale breeders. In fact many of us realize/recognize commercial breeders as being one of the major reasons many lines of frogs survive to this day in the hobby.

Almost all living Red galacs in tbe hobby originate from Sean Stewart and Patrick a saurian.net directly or as offspring from frogs that came from them. Probably a few from Rich Frye and a couple others that deserve credit too. All Sisa bassleri and R. Benedicta are from understory originally aren't they? If you dig into the history of most species/morphs in this hobby you will find one or a few dedicated amateur and/or trust wortby commercial breeders that are in large part responsible for a frog still existing in this hobby today.

Originally USAdart seemed to have wanted to target big chain stores and I'm sure they'd still like to get those contracts, but so far that hasn't panned out for them it seems. They've been selling their frogs directly or it seems wholesaling them out to big herp distributors on kingsnake or elsewhere kinda on the fringe of the hobby, but who's actions and frogs do effect us. 

Those distributors likely don't make a point of telling people where the frogs came from or won't tell them specifically even if they ask, especially now that they probably know what's going on with them. I also doubt USAdart makes a point of telling anyone that those in the know don't want them or their frogs.

You say they aren't targeting the Hobby as we know it, but the fact is a great many of those people will end up here to find info or participate in the hobby community. We are the ones who have to correct the misinformation and psuedoscience. We have to deal with the people who breed and sell those frogs here or other places. Actually if you continue in this hobby and ever buy the same species/morphs USAdart works with from other sellers you will never get to be as sure as we once were that we got what we paid for...

Remember to thank USAdart for crapping in those gene pools, and possibly destroying all confidence in these lines by the people who probably would have been the ones to keep them alive in the hobby for the next few decades long after USAdart and the newbies they conned fade from the hobby. 

*It is the serious core hobbists and trustworthy commercial breeders who are mostly responsible for keeping many of these frog lines alive up to your arrival in the hobby and first chance to buy them.*

You really think those frogs will never find their way into the hobby? You're here and it sounds like you bought frogs from them... Ever plan on breeding and selling the offspring? ...You don't think those buyers or buyers and sellers after them will mix your frogs with ours? Or end up here at some point to find info and guidance? I've said it numerous times but here it is again... *USAdart does not exist in a vacuum. What they say and do has consequences that will effect us.*

The *"they aren't targeting us"* argument is pretty flawed because many of those people and their frogs are going to find their way to the forums and start participating in the community one way or another, and both us and them will have to deal with the ramifications of their purchase from USAdart... *You and others already here are basically proof of that.*

BTW...
The *"we don't want competition"* argument also holds very little water because we don't seem to have a problem with the commercial breeders that show a modicum of respect for the community, especially ones thate have proven to be pretty trust worthy as custodians of our frog lines, sometimes being almost solely responsible for keeping some lines alive while they went through a down turn in popularity or breeding success.



big_frog said:


> Because froggy knight I was edited for posting facts and proven experience from USA frog.


So you have a vested interest in us letting USAdart off the hook and those frogs being accepted by us with open arms? ...Yep.

You have my sympathy, but we have been trying to prevent you and others from ending up in this akward position caused by a USAdart. Your anger is misdirected.

I'm not going to hate on you for probably not being as well informed as we'd like before you bought from them, but you realize that you and your frogs are part of the hobby now right? 

You breed those frogs and they ever come in contact with other buyers and sellers and their frogs and it becomes a lot harder for us to trust we'll ever again truly get the frogs we intended to get, because up until now there was no large commercial vendor knowingly pumping out hundreds or thousands of hybrids and/or mixed morph frogs selling them next to pure lines and serving them up with a side of questionable ethics, lies, pseudoscience and sleazy marketing.

IMO you should be right here with us raging, because looks to me like you're stuck with frogs most here or who have heard about USAdarts shenanigans, won't touch with a 10 foot pole. 

*I'd be pretty PO'd at a vendor that got me off to such a bad start in a hobby, not the community that is trying to prevent it from happening to others by speaking out.*


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> It is my opinion that PART of the venom toward DFW is due to driving prices down on those species a 1st time PDF buyer would buy.


I've addressed your comments a few times and it seems like you do your best to ignore any legitimate points, but here goes...MOCARP, please read the following. I would assume someone who considers themselves a student of human nature would consider all the facts, not just the ones that supported their preconceived conclusion.

I can understand why someone who hasn't been around the hobby for long might make that assumption, but you're drawing conclusions with absolutely no insight into the situation. I've been involved in quite a few animal hobbies over the years (lizards, tropical and saltwater fish, reef tanks, koi, small mammals, and to an even greater extent, snakes), and I enjoyed working with all those animals. A decade ago I got into frogs, and while I really enjoy the animals, I have to say I've probably stuck with it because of the hobbyists and the general vibe of the hobby. There are people who get into frogs to make big money. Typically they last 6-12 months. You sound like one of them.

Unlike many of the animals I've bred, no one is getting rich breeding frogs. At current prices the profit margin isn't high enough for many to quit their day job. You can literally make more money flipping burgers. There is way more money in the accoutrement if that's the goal. Therefore, the people the hobby draws, the ones that stay, the people you are arguing with, are not in it for the money. All animals drop in price over time as availability rises. DFW could charge 5 bucks a frog for all I care. Where do you see people complaining about being undercut? You know who you don't see complaining here? Frog vendors! They know they're frogs are going to actually be worth MORE. 

What you do see here are hobbyists raising hell because the hobby is at risk, and because if DFW gets a foothold then there will be even more pressure on wild populations. Importations will either be halted, or way worse yet, dwindle due to demand. 

Do I like selling whatever babies I happen to produce? Sure. Am I bummed to see the potential value of them go down? Meh, I guess. I will tell you something though, I would gladly give away, for free, every froglet I produce for the rest of my life if that meant DFW and the potential damage they could do just went away. I guarantee I'm not the only one. 

So you're used to the hard and fast world of ferret breeding? As a student of human nature I'm surprised you think you can paint us with that brush. I will say it one more time...Because of the negligible profit margins and ties to conservation, the hobbyists that tend to stick around are not profit driven, AND THEREFORE DON'T CARE WHAT DFW CHARGES. We're much more concerned about the cost to the hobby.

Now, either please engage in a beneficial conversation, where all the facts are considered and factored into the discussion, or just kindly go away. There are plenty of places on the internet where you can debate just for the sake of debate.


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Running with the assumption that some of DFWs defenders here have purchased frogs from them, I think there is one question that they need to very seriously consider to really get what most are saying here.

Knowing the reputation with which the frogs from DFW are viewed, when your frogs breed, will you be selling the offspring as DFW line frogs, even if this means they are difficult or even impossible to sell?

For the majority, if they're really honest with themselves, that will be a no.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dravenxavier said:


> Running with the assumption that some of DFWs defenders here have purchased frogs from them, I think there is one question that they need to very seriously consider to really get what most are saying here.
> 
> Knowing the reputation with which the frogs from DFW are viewed, when your frogs breed, will you be selling the offspring as DFW line frogs, even if this means they are difficult or even impossible to sell?
> 
> For the majority, if they're really honest with themselves, that will be a no.


It may be naive, but I'm trying to have more faith in people. I hope it will be like when some people have made or sold a few hybrids while new, uninformed, and not really knowing any better and then are like "My bad, I didn't know. I won't breed them and if I have to sell them I'll label them as what they are." *Good for those people who can own up to that, and keep it from effecting others.*

...I hope they take responsibility and don't pawn it off on us. Keep the frogs, enjoy them... Just please don't torpedo the gene pool with them. It would be really nice if 10 years from now I could buy a cobalt tinc that wasn't half auratus, or threw some Oyapock looking froglets when I bred it to another "cobalt tinc".

If we could have a completely separate designer frog hobby where they got their way, then OK. I just don't see any realistic way for that to happen. 

And then there are the many many other reasons not to support the company trying to usher in this brave new world. 

Also they should keep in mind that their opinions might change over time. Years ago I might have been all for a designer frog hobby... not now though. I "get it" now... and would never risk the natural diversity/genetic integrity of the frog lines to indulge that uninformed selfish desire. I doubt I was the first or will be the last to find the light switch... Just glad I didn't screw over everyone while I was stumbling in the dark 

Keep your frogs... enjoy them, just don't burn down the entire hobby around you with that candle in the dark.

...Please


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> What you posted is called feedback and if you had read the Terms of Service when you signed up, you have known that outside of the vendor feedback area, this is not allowed.


So this thread is all hear say garbage and nobody should use it to decide weather or not to buy from them.. People ask or want facts and first hand knowledge but you can't share it? I call BS


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> I pointed out there were no 30 page freak out of threads when Josh's and NEherp opened. We have no problem with large scale breeders. In fact many of us realize/recognize commercial breeders as being one of the major reasons many lines of frogs survive to this day in the hobby.
> 
> Almost all living Red galacs in tbe hobby originate from Sean Stewart and Patrick a saurian.net directly or as offspring from frogs that came from them. Probably a few from Rich Frye and a couple others that deserve credit too. All Sisa bassleri and R. Benedicta are from understory originally aren't they? If you dig into the history of most species/morphs in this hobby you will find one or a few dedicated amateur and/or trust wortby commercial breeders that are in large part responsible for a frog still existing in this hobby today.
> 
> Originally USAdart seemed to have wanted to target big chain stores and I'm sure they'd still like to get those contracts, but so far that hasn't panned out for them it seems. They've been selling their frogs directly or it seems wholesaling them out to big herp distributors on kingsnake or elsewhere kinda on the fringe of the hobby, but who's actions and frogs do effect us.
> 
> Those distributors likely don't make a point of telling people where the frogs came from or won't tell them specifically even if they ask, especially now that they probably know what's going on with them. I also doubt USAdart makes a point of telling anyone that those in the know don't want them or their frogs.
> 
> You say they aren't targeting the Hobby as we know it, but the fact is a great many of those people will end up here to find info or participate in the hobby community. We are the ones who have to correct the misinformation and psuedoscience. We have to deal with the people who breed and sell those frogs here or other places. Actually if you continue in this hobby and ever buy the same species/morphs USAdart works with from other sellers you will never get to be as sure as we once were that we got what we paid for...
> 
> Remember to thank USAdart for crapping in those gene pools, and possibly destroying all confidence in these lines by the people who probably would have been the ones to keep them alive in the hobby for the next few decades long after USAdart and the newbies they conned fade from the hobby.
> 
> *It is the serious core hobbists and trustworthy commercial breeders who are mostly responsible for keeping many of these frog lines alive up to your arrival in the hobby and first chance to buy them.*
> 
> You really think those frogs will never find their way into the hobby? You're here and it sounds like you bought frogs from them... Ever plan on breeding and selling the offspring? ...You don't think those buyers or buyers and sellers after them will mix your frogs with ours? Or end up here at some point to find info and guidance? I've said it numerous times but here it is again... *USAdart does not exist in a vacuum. What they say and do has consequences that will effect us.*
> 
> The *"they aren't targeting us"* argument is pretty flawed because many of those people and their frogs are going to find their way to the forums and start participating in the community one way or another, and both us and them will have to deal with the ramifications of their purchase from USAdart... *You and others already here are basically proof of that.*
> 
> BTW...
> The *"we don't want competition"* argument also holds very little water because we don't seem to have a problem with the commercial breeders that show a modicum of respect for the community, especially ones thate have proven to be pretty trust worthy as custodians of our frog lines, sometimes being almost solely responsible for keeping some lines alive while they went through a down turn in popularity or breeding success.
> 
> 
> 
> So you have a vested interest in us letting USAdart off the hook and those frogs being accepted by us with open arms? ...Yep.
> 
> You have my sympathy, but we have been trying to prevent you and others from ending up in this akward position caused by a USAdart. Your anger is misdirected.
> 
> I'm not going to hate on you for probably not being as well informed as we'd like before you bought from them, but you realize that you and your frogs are part of the hobby now right?
> 
> You breed those frogs and they ever come in contact with other buyers and sellers and their frogs and it becomes a lot harder for us to trust we'll ever again truly get the frogs we intended to get, because up until now there was no large commercial vendor knowingly pumping out hundreds or thousands of hybrids and/or mixed morph frogs selling them next to pure lines and serving them up with a side of questionable ethics, lies, pseudoscience and sleazy marketing.
> 
> IMO you should be right here with us raging, because looks to me like you're stuck with frogs most here or who have heard about USAdarts shenanigans, won't touch with a 10 foot pole.
> 
> *I'd be pretty PO'd at a vendor that got me off to such a bad start in a hobby, not the community that is trying to prevent it from happening to others by speaking out.*


Yes I have purchased from them and not afraid to admit that.. No, i have absolutely zero interest in breeding them...I can't go into my experience with them apparently due to feedback violation since they aren't vendors on this site.. I could only speak from personal experience, or should I say I can't speak from personal experience..


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> So this thread is all hear say garbage and nobody should use it to decide weather or not to buy from them.. People ask or want facts and first hand knowledge but you can't share it? I call BS


No. It's not hearsay. No one here is really weighing in on these frogs. We are criticizing the business based on the lies told, the harmful advice given, and the pressures that the business model is likely to put on importation. Those were all taken witnessed first hand. You seem to be from the "build-a-better-frog" camp, which is fine, but I would love to hear a comment from you on those issues specifically. You seem to avoid them.



big_frog said:


> Yes I have purchased from them and not afraid to admit that.. No, i have absolutely zero interest in breeding them...I can't go into my experience with them apparently due to feedback violation since they aren't vendors on this site. I could only speak from personal experience, or should I say I can't speak from personal experience..


I don't believe that's true. Unless there is some exception for DFW that I don't know about then you can and should leave feedback on the feedback forum (correct me if I'm wrong). Where did you get the idea that only feedback could be left for site vendors? I have feedback and I'm just a hobbyist.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> So this thread is all hear say garbage and nobody should use it to decide weather or not to buy from them.. People ask or want facts and first hand knowledge but you can't share it? I call BS


No, it isn't. It's based on what they publish on their website, what they said here before they rage quit the forums, vs science and facts that we know about proper dart frog husbandry. It's quite a good resource for anyone considering a purchase from them as it informs them of the pseudoscience, lies, and misinformation they use to confuse and swindle people. Look man, I feel bad you got taken advantage of by these guys, we don't fault you for that. Just don't continue to shill for them.

If you have a problem with not being able to post feedback here, I suggest you take it up with the moderators. You can post feedback, just not here. As I said before, you read the rules(or should have) when you signed up. You agreed to abide by them, so it is foolish to complain about it now when you knew or at least should have known, in advance.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No one doubts that you received nice frogs from them. No one doubts that they were nice to you and your frogs arrived in good condition. What you don't seem to understand is that we don't care that the frogs you received from them are in good condition and that you are very happy with them. That is not the point of this thread and has never been the point of this thread.

The point is you have no idea of what actual frog morphs you bought from them. You know that they closely resemble existing morphs, but you have no way of knowing what parent morphs went into creating your frogs. They could very well be hybrids that more closely resemble one of the parents more than the other and were sold as the one they resembled the most. They have already expressed on their website that they don't think that the way we classify the morphs is valid and is totally arbitrary. How could you trust them not to pass off the hybrids that didn't turn out the way they wanted as pre-existing morphs.
It's not like they have ever lied about their breeding practices before............oh wait, apparently they have.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Yes I have purchased from them and not afraid to admit that.. No, i have absolutely zero interest in breeding them....


That much at least, is a welcome relief.

What are your plans for them if you ever decide you're no longer interested in keeping them? Will you try to sell them honestly and fully disclose their origin?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



phender said:


> It's not like they have ever lied about their breeding practices before............oh wait, apparently they have.


This is the one universal constant that we can rely upon from USA Frog, that they will lie, whenever necessary to suit their needs. One needs only look back at the original posts by Rick and Dillion, stating they haven't and wouldn't ever create hybrids or mix morphs, yet based on the ages of such frogs they have available on their website, they had to have already done so. How anyone can grant them any credibility based on their one constant, dishonesty is quite baffling to me. They have zero credibility, none. It's not really big frogs fault, he didn't know any better(I hope) at the time, but he's unwittingly actually become the poster child for just exactly one of the very serious concerns we have about how USA Frogs actions WILL impact our hobby, wether they try to distance themselves from us or not.


----------



## carola1155

*Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog*

Guys, feedback can only be left for members of the site. That has been a rule for longer than I have been a mod. Since they asked to have their profiles removed, there can't be feedback for them. Good or bad... Not allowed. Sorry. Let that be the last post about this please, this thread is not the place to discuss forum policy.

Also, this is why I have repeatedly asked that you stick debunking the bad science on their website. Not relating to a transaction = allowed. You can talk all you want about the information they make publicly available on their site. That's supposed to be the goal of this thread

Thank you,


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks Tom...

If anyone is wondering their frogs don`t have cooties. It really is hard to believe that there`s adults involved here.
Questions


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Thanks Tom...
> 
> If anyone is wondering their frogs don`t have cooties. It really is hard to believe that there`s adults involved here.
> Questions


I saw that. Cracked me up. It's sad though that they make like of a serious issue. I've challenged Rick to put up or shut up. Show the proof that in over 7000 "claimed" animals, not one has ever had a zoonotic disease. Why won't they answer simple questions like; Do you test your frogs? What for? How often?

Looks like Rick plans to roll out the Designer Designation again. They seriously can't make up their minds. Is it a Top Gun, Designer, Signature, Rebel, and on and on and on. Not even the Wascher's know at this point....


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

...and this.
I couldn`t get past the first paragraph.

Guys - NO Imports!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Please remember to use:

Link without improving "their" search engine position | donotlink.com

When linking anything from their site. Don't help their search results.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You betcha


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Has anyone else noticed how they try to make their "One Hop" shipping look like an official FedEx offering? I find it quite funny, but it is also just another example of their deceitful tactics.... 

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have to wonder, if this is supposedly Dillion's business, why are all the trademarks, licenses, etc all in Rick's name.

Seems he registered and was granted a trademark for the use of Designer when it comes to their mutts. That should be an easy one to lodge a protest against considering it was our community that long ago coined that term. Not surprising that a company completely devoid of original ideas and a flair for plagiarism would have the audacity to trademark other people's ideas.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Their companion packs are now specifically offering three different morphs one of each, Of what appear to be(you never know with these guys), Azureus, Cobalts, and Powder blues, together. You can choose to get a female for an extra charge. A similar offer with three different, but one of each Auratus morphs.....


So now not only are they advocating for horrible husbandry practices, they're actively encouraging people to mix morphs by selling mixed groups. I can't say I'm surprised that they would sink this low though.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You are wrong.

VF can only be left when both parties can respond to it. Someone not on DB has no chance to respond to it.

(I note that Tom has said the same thing - should have read the thread through before responding.)

s


Boondoggle said:


> ... I don't believe that's true. Unless there is some exception for DFW that I don't know about then you can and should leave feedback on the feedback forum (correct me if I'm wrong). Where did you get the idea that only feedback could be left for site vendors? I have feedback and I'm just a hobbyist.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> You are wrong.
> 
> VF can only be left when both parties can respond to it. Someone not on DB has no chance to respond to it.
> 
> (I note that Tom has said the same thing - should have read the thread through before responding.)
> 
> s


So basically they shot themself in the foot by rage quitting the forum.


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



phender said:


> No one doubts that you received nice frogs from them. No one doubts that they were nice to you and your frogs arrived in good condition. What you don't seem to understand is that we don't care that the frogs you received from them are in good condition and that you are very happy with them. That is not the point of this thread and has never been the point of this thread.
> 
> The point is you have no idea of what actual frog morphs you bought from them. You know that they closely resemble existing morphs, but you have no way of knowing what parent morphs went into creating your frogs. They could very well be hybrids that more closely resemble one of the parents more than the other and were sold as the one they resembled the most. They have already expressed on their website that they don't think that the way we classify the morphs is valid and is totally arbitrary. How could you trust them not to pass off the hybrids that didn't turn out the way they wanted as pre-existing morphs.
> It's not like they have ever lied about their breeding practices before............oh wait, apparently they have.


There are posts on here that they sell sick trash frogs. People were asking for them to support the fact their frogs are bigger and brighter.. My only point was to let people on here know that the frogs I received were exactly that and compared to frogs I had received even from vendors on here over the past few years were in my opinion superior in size and looks.. Now with that being said are they hybrids? I don't know and really I don't care cause these were purchased for display only.. 
Now as far as the company goes nobody on here can say for sure that ALL their stock are hybrids or crosses.. They do produce and breed various hybrids and color morphs but, again is there proof that they cross the pure strains they offer as well?
Maybe I'm just too trusting but I can only go with how they have treated me personslly


----------



## big_frog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> That much at least, is a welcome relief.
> 
> What are your plans for them if you ever decide you're no longer interested in keeping them? Will you try to sell them honestly and fully disclose their origin?


I honestly don't plan on getting rid of them but if some unforeseen life event forced me to get rid of them I would see if a family member would want them(yes disclosing where they came from) or humanely dispose of them..


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> Maybe I'm just too trusting but I can only go with how they have treated me personslly


This is totally fine and they may have treated you well, but there are facts to back up our seemingly outrageous claims on these people. Did you happen to ask about fecal testing or PCR testing for Chytrid and Ranavirus? Whenever the topic of testing pops up, they either spew lies or totally block their potential buyer from contacting them. Not once have they provided any proof of their frogs' superior health, despite our requests.

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> There are posts on here that they sell sick trash frogs. *REMOVED FEEEDBACK* Now with that being said are they hybrids? I don't know and really I don't care cause these were purchased for display only.


That's a pretty sad and apathetic viewpoint, but I suppose you're entitled to it.



> Now as far as the company goes nobody on here can say for sure that ALL their stock are hybrids or crosses.


No one has ever said that ALL are. The question you seem content to ignore is that we don't know. And knowing in this hobby is of paramount importance........ To most of us anyways. 



> They do produce and breed various hybrids and color morphs but, again is there proof that they cross the pure strains they offer as well?


Yes, they've admitted as much. They're actually quite proud of it.



> Maybe I'm just too trusting but I can only go with how they have treated me personslly


I'm sure the used car salesman selling previously crashed, fire damaged, water damaged cars treats people quite well too, all the while fleecing his unwitting customer.

You have, unwittingly hit the nail right on the head though. You're too trusting. In light of all the blatant lies, misinformation, and sleazy sales tactics, how anyone can trust them is beyond me.

I am at least relieve to see you say you'll properly identify your frogs if you give them away, or at least euthanize them. This tells me you at least you understand the ramifications the existence of your frogs presents to the hobby.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> There are posts on here that they sell sick trash frogs. People were asking for them to support the fact their frogs are bigger and brighter.. My only point was to let people on here know that the frogs I received were exactly that and compared to frogs I had received even from vendors on here over the past few years were in my opinion superior in size and looks.. Now with that being said are they hybrids? I don't know and really I don't care cause these were purchased for display only..
> Now as far as the company goes nobody on here can say for sure that ALL their stock are hybrids or crosses.. They do produce and breed various hybrids and color morphs but, again is there proof that they cross the pure strains they offer as well?
> Maybe I'm just too trusting but I can only go with how they have treated me personslly


Can you quote or link to posts that said they sell sick trash frogs? I remember people wondering about the health especially in light of the "100% healthy"..."100% SAFE" claims all while they took shots at other breeders and alluded to vast conspiracies.

In the face of extraordinary claims, we demanded extraordinary proof... I don't think that is unreasonable.

So it's a bummer you can't leave feedback, (Really)... but if you want to defend them you and the others can start by addressing the points made about their extraordinary claims, their BS pseudoscience, questionably husbandry advice, sleazy marketing tactics, that big whopper "we won't mix species or varieties", and of course why anyone would trust someone capable of all that to sell designer frogs next to the pure ones?

*Oh and will someone please explain how you can jeopardize the genetic integrity of all our frogs in the selfish desire for designer frogs, force rapid and huge change on a hobby community who has practically begged them not to, and justify the ethics of that in any reasonable way?*

If people wanna stick up for them, fine... that's the stuff they need to defend or explain away. Sure there is an argument to be made that we're angry and possibly being to mean... but where are the arguements that we're wrong? Or better yet, that USAdart is in the right? 

About the best anyone can say about them so far is " the frogs look healthy, they were nice to me, and they didn't flat out steal from me" ...Whoopty Doo! 

...Now defend them for all the crap they did do, and explain why we have no right to demand extraordinary proof in the face of extraordinary claims.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not that I agree with much else of what he's said - but I've seen *plenty* of frogs for sale on DB that should not be sold.

I don't think we can quibble on that one.

s


Dendro Dave said:


> Can you quote or link to posts that said they sell sick trash frogs?
> 
> ...


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> You are wrong.
> 
> VF can only be left when both parties can respond to it. Someone not on DB has no chance to respond to it.
> 
> (I note that Tom has said the same thing - should have read the thread through before responding.)
> 
> s


I honestly think this is a silly policy that could stand to be reviewed. Take the current DFW situation. The odds of a business sticking around on the forums if they get a lot of positive reviews are pretty good. But if a vendor is getting slammed all the time then they're gonna quit the forums pretty quick (dfw....) And then all that feedback goes away since they're not here. I understand the idea behind them not being able to defend themselves if they're not members. But honestly, if they're a good business with solid husbandry then they're probably not going to need to, are they. And if they're a shoddy business, we have the need, and the right, to know about it from our fellow hobbyists. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So noted - but it's not going to change and this isn't the place to argue it.

s


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> Not that I agree with much else of what he's said - but I've seen *plenty* of frogs for sale on DB that should not be sold.
> 
> I don't think we can quibble on that one.
> 
> s


Agreed, but he was saying we said USAdart sold sick trash frogs. I remember us questioning their health given the extraordinary claims made, but I don't remember us actually saying that the frogs were sick trash. OK Trash maybe in now that USA dart has touched them most won't want them, and some say hybrids are ugly, but not trash as in disease ridden skinny half dead looking frogs being pictured.

Or did I read wrong? ...I had just taken some doxylamine succinate (sominex) and benadryl after chugging a natural light to help me sleep


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So a member recently posted this thread...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...eographic-article-r-imitator.html#post2181066
...about an article that had this to say about morph mixing in the wild that I think is relevant here...

* "Evidence that the morphs prefer to hook up with their own kind “suggests there has been some sort of negative consequence of breeding with the wrong morph,” said Summers, who received funding from National Geographic’s Committee for Research and Exploration.

Maybe “their offspring are less fit or they are more likely to be predated,” he added. “They have evolved this preference, but only where they’re likely to be at risk of making a mistake.” (See “New Frog Found—Has ‘Striking’ Color Change.”)

What’s more, the frogs’ ability to imitate is driving their genetic separation, the study team suspects, because the two morphs can use their elaborate patterns to tell each other apart.

Summers and colleagues’ past and ongoing studies into the vision of poison dart frogs make him “fairly confident that they can see the color pattern differences quite clearly,” he said."*

Source:
New Poison Frog Species Evolving Before Our Eyes, Study Says – Voices

So they tried to get them to do it for experimental reasons, but that reads to me like the frogs generally don't mix morphs if they have much of a choice, and the scientists suspect there may even be negative consequences when they do. So not definitive but possibly more reasons IMO for us to keep morphs separate in captivity.

Obviously the frogs will mix sometimes especially if almost forced to, and seems like they need stronger evidence overall but we now have Lotters and these scientists both giving us reasons (IMO) not to mix morphs....

The only reasons I can see to mix morphs are the selfish desire for designer frogs no matter the risk it poses, or possibly the need to inject more diversity into our founder stock to keep them viable.

I don't know if we are there yet, but if/when we do get there I know who I *wouldn't trust* to decide, guide that, or sell mixed morph frogs next to pure ones... *USAdart.*



Hmm... food for thought


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thank you for the distinction. I had missed that.

I try not to get stuck too deep over here. 

s



Dendro Dave said:


> Agreed, but he was saying we said USAdart sold sick trash frogs. I remember us questioning their health given the extraordinary claims made, but I don't remember us actually saying that the frogs were sick trash. OK Trash maybe in now that USA dart has touched them most won't want them, and some say hybrids are ugly, but not trash as in disease ridden skinny half dead looking frogs being pictured.
> 
> Or did I read wrong? ...I had just taken some doxylamine succinate (sominex) and benadryl after chugging a natural light to help me sleep


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> Thank you for the distinction. I had missed that.
> 
> I try not to get stuck too deep over here.
> 
> s


But Scott! ...I do these long rambling posts because I thought you LIKED wading through them 

Actually I figure when the mods see my posts their eyes glass over, a lil drool dribbles out of there mouth, and they just say to themselves... "Skip Dave, next post"

Tom will never PM me again


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

http://www.[youtube].com/watch?v=rL_Md0yAQHo&list=PLRZwbFwtqr9rePRDeqHmo-9t8vvea2t10

I intentionally broke the link so it won't display here. Cut and paste into your browser and remove the [] around "YouTube"

Make sure you make your opinions known in the comments section.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Crap. That in not good.

On the bright side of things, they finally allowed pictures of their frog tanks to be released. 

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It's fine. It's just a little feel good price they put together. You'll notice the obvious topics they avoid. I doubt this will get much play, but it is an opportunity to further inform people what they're really about.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess, but there are a LOT of people who see animals on youtube plus the people who sell them and do an impulse buy. It will happen even if negative comments are posted about the business...

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ya I take it as yet another opportunity to spread the good word... Can you guess which YouTube comment is mine? 

I figure we'll get to inform everyone or the comments will get shutdown, which by now on a vid like that most internet savy people will assume the company did something horrible to PO a lot of people... and they'd be right 

So everyone be sure to leave a nice comment for all the unsuspecting souls that might see that, and get duped into buying tainted frogs most with half a clue... won't touch with a 10 foot pole. 

The degree of megalomaniacal delusion it must take to flip off an entire hobby community and still think you are in the right... Mindboggling! 

P.S. Be sure to give the vid a thumbs down.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> I honestly don't plan on getting rid of them but if some unforeseen life event forced me to get rid of them I would see if a family member would want them(yes disclosing where they came from) or humanely dispose of them..


Who are you? What is your level of experience and background with Dendrobatids?


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just sent an email to Mr. Haberkern from tinctorius.ch to inform him that these guys are using his photos to support their "scientific" theses.
Let you know as soon as i got an answer.

The video on youtube is gone! 

@Dave: i think they didnt like your comment at all!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Slengteng said:


> The video on youtube is gone!
> 
> @Dave: i think they didnt like your comment at all!


I can still see it?

7 thumbs up, 17 thumbs down, 10 Comments, almost all negative, none positive. And I haven't even bothered to comment on it yet.

USA Frog Still has a link to it on their website as well.


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yeah, i see! In my office it didnt work, it said this video isn't available or something like that!


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not working for me. Says video doesn't exist.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Are you removing the brackets? I'm still able to see it.

Your employer or network admin may block YouTube videos.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It isn't working for me either. I'm getting the same screen as epiphytes etc.

John


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

On my private laptop i can see it!


----------



## redfrogger

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You don't see it because you are not copying and pasting the entire address.

I couldn't view it on my computer. But I could view the entire address on my phone. Then remove the brackets as Doug mentioned and you should be able to view it.

Or just search in YouTube "wild side tv dart frogs"


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just a little reminder to everyone: Please be mindful of the rules set forth for this thread. They can be found in the first post and I have provided a link below for your reference... 

www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-d...tfrogs-designerfrogs-usafrog.html#post1837369


----------



## BrainBug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oi, that's terrible.

I just posted my first YouTube comment and it was excessively long, and I still want to say more.


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hopefully a lot of people will see the comments and get informed about these guys!


----------



## BrainBug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

People of Dendroboard, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make it over to that youtube video and comment on whats really going on.

YouTube is a huge marketing tool and that video could have more of a positive or negative impact on that company then this thread ever will.


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It seems all of the comments have disappeared?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dravenxavier said:


> It seems all of the comments have disappeared?


Yep, they deleted anything critical of USA Frog. There are still 29 down votes.

Just link them here, to the forum, not this thread. Don't be critical on the YouTube comments going forward, or they'll just get deleted. I got a couple emails last night from new hobbyists who saw the video, but decided against purchasing from USA Frog after learning more, so mission accomplished. A few good vendors should be getting their business.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> Have you ever changed your company name? No.


Actually yes.

And I've got the screen caps of one of your angry midnight rants you posted. You know, the one where you basically threatened us all and admitted you intentionally used a name you could easily discard because you KNEW the scrutiny and disgust your actions would garner?

Poor Ricky has talked out of so many sides of his mouth now he can't remember which lies he has told.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ok, as near as I can tell, they're being objective with new comments. I just left a comment with a link to our forum. The others new comment which was an obvious shill for DFW/USA Frog was deleted but mine was not. I think if we post there with positive proper information, It will remain. Once people are directed to forums we can educate them.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well my original comment is still there. Another got taken down even though it was pretty tame by YouTube standards... and accurate.

I posted a calmer rebuttal to USAdart's one defender there... Hopefully that one will stay up. Sadly that person has drank deep of the poisoned kool aid and I fear is beyond all rationality... or help. Nor do they seem remotely qualified to be judging others in this hobby.

Like their other defenders, that person also seems unwilling to address the sleazy marketing, lies, questionable husbandry advice and BS pseudoscience. Have any of their defenders even claimed that stuff doesn't exist? ...Seems like they just skip over it entirely. I wonder why that is?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess Rick didn't like all the thumbs down, or perhaps doesn't like that Wildside TV is letting comments stand that politely direct people to an informed hobby site.

While you can still see the button to link to the video, on their website, it is no longer clickable.


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I guess Rick didn't like all the thumbs down, or perhaps doesn't like that Wildside TV is letting comments stand that politely direct people to an informed hobby site.
> 
> While you can still see the button to link to the video, on their website, it is no longer clickable.


Probably he has a agreement with wildside and isnt allowed to remove it from his own side!


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Slengteng said:


> I just sent an email to Mr. Haberkern from tinctorius.ch to inform him that these guys are using his photos to support their "scientific" theses.
> Let you know as soon as i got an answer.


The Waschers got a nice mail!

Good that they take care on their own copyrights but use photos from other websides without asking!


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well either my YouTube is broken or they took down all the comments except my original one... I can live with that  

I guess my rebuttal to Felicia served its purpose. Were any of the people she mentioned actually involved in this thread?


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Well either my YouTube is broken or they took down all the comments except my original one... I can live with that
> 
> I guess my rebuttal to Felicia served its purpose. Were any of the people she mentioned actually involved in this thread?


Strange! I can just see mine but not yours!


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I can't see any comments.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

YouTube is so wonky. I can sometimes see that there are 15 comments, then it reverts to three.

I can currently see three comments, two by me and one from Wildside TV.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> Note about Repashy supplements. We used Repashy Calcium Plus for a while. We stopped because the waste fraction is too high. The supplement seemed to work fine, but moisture content varied too. Thus, if you only have a few frogs, the waste may not bother you, but their supplement isn't cheap either. If you ever used Repashy Calcium PLus then you know for sure what we are talking about. If you raise a lot of frogs like we do, then you probably won't use Respashy Calcium Plus because too much is unused, doesn't stick, and is thrown away. The Respashy rep on the hobby board also says to throw away the stuff in the bottom of the cup after the flies are supplemented as it is no good after it is applied to the flies. If so, by weight alone, quite possibly more is thrown away than used. That is why we don't use Respashy Calcium Plus anymore and why we do not recommend it.


This is noteworthy to bring up again as they have changed the wording around a bit.

1.) So Repashy has a rep on the hobby board eh? BS Keen eyes will probably note they removed the libelous accusation that there were paid advocates here.

We all support and recommend repashy because it is a quality product.

2.) Moisture content varies? /facepalm These suppliments are always kept very dry, because humidity destroys the quality of the vitamins. If there were moisture issues, it is because USA Frog stored the vitamins improperly.

3.) If the waste fraction is too high for USA frog, it is because they're using it wrong. As I have previously established, when used properly, there is very little if any waste fraction.

4.) Nope repashy isn't cheep, because it's a quality product. Most hobbyists are not so as obsessed with price point. Were not cheapskates. We choose to pay more for a quality product. USA frog uses cheep products to cut costs and offer cheep frogs. 

5.) Repashy calcium sticks just fine, the problem most likely lies in USA Frogs inability to properly use the product. Based upon moisture complaints and the video of them dusting flies, it should be obvious to anyone what the problems are.

6.)Yep of course you should dispose of ANY VITAMIN SUPPLEMENT after exposure to flies... There is a very good reason too. There is a fundamental basic understanding of the science behind our use of vitamins that dictates this, and is completely separate from the brand of supplement used. Not surprisingly, USA Frog still hasn't caught on to what this is.

There are other decent products out there, but USA Frogs bashing of repashy is a shameless and shallow attempt to provide separation between them and the hobby and to make it's sound like, they're on to something special, when nothing could be further from the truth.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You now need the link to see that video, only video in that series with that caveat.


----------



## gladiatorsgi

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Does anyone have a functional link? The one posted yesterday does not work. Might have been taken down... Thx!


----------



## dam630

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You can still get to the video by going to YouTube first, then search for wildside tv, then look for the dart frog video.
It looks like somehow they have it set so that you can only view your own comments, not anyone else's.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

All I am seeing is it is removed. I wonder how much time/money just swirled down the drain on that one.


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I found it by looking up Wildside TV,but can't see comments from anyone. Comments were there yesterday.


----------



## Medic1

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Did the video get taken down?? I can't find it anymore. Awwww shucks!!!  Also, as of 1030 PM central time, their website isn't working either. The video made me gag just a little bit. Rick seems to have completely brainwashed his poor kids to drink his Kool-Aid...


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well I looked through the wild side YouTube channel, website, and Facebook and can't find the vid or comments at all now. Bummer that their propoganda puff piece is no more 

Oh and they addressed the wild side TV spot and the IMO lie about mixing species or varieties on this page...
USA Frog Facts

Funny I don't remember them qualifying their statement with "no present intent", just that they flat out said they wouldn't... and then did.

Spin spin spin...

They are also still spinning the Lotters advice that they double circled in red about not mixing species or variety to mean "personal choice". They actually quote it below that and boldly underline it then say they don't cross breed species, but conviently leave out the varieties part... I guess hoping we won't notice. 

Stretch, spin, skew, twist the facts.... It's all pretty thin, transparent even 

It's pretty funny watching them get bumfuzzled and bewildered by their own BS and have to back peddle to spin it into some version of "truth" they can sell to the naive. 

Get caught in a lie? Just stick with it, spin it and twist it till you can get a few to finally believe it? Instead of just owning up to it? ...Nice example you're setting there.


----------



## Allen Repashy

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> This is noteworthy to bring up again as they have changed the wording around a bit.
> 
> 1.) So Repashy has a rep on the hobby board eh? BS Keen eyes will probably note they removed the libelous accusation that there were paid advocates here.
> 
> We all support and recommend repashy because it is a quality product.
> 
> 2.) Moisture content varies? /facepalm These suppliments are always kept very dry, because humidity destroys the quality of the vitamins. If there were moisture issues, it is because USA Frog stored the vitamins improperly.
> 
> 3.) If the waste fraction is too high for USA frog, it is because they're using it wrong. As I have previously established, when used properly, there is very little if any waste fraction.
> 
> 4.) Nope repashy isn't cheep, because it's a quality product. Most hobbyists are not so as obsessed with price point. Were not cheapskates. We choose to pay more for a quality product. USA frog uses cheep products to cut costs and offer cheep frogs.
> 
> 5.) Repashy calcium sticks just fine, the problem most likely lies in USA Frogs inability to properly use the product. Based upon moisture complaints and the video of them dusting flies, it should be obvious to anyone what the problems are.
> 
> 6.)Yep of course you should dispose of ANY VITAMIN SUPPLEMENT after exposure to flies... There is a very good reason too. There is a fundamental basic understanding of the science behind our use of vitamins that dictates this, and is completely separate from the brand of supplement used. Not surprisingly, USA Frog still hasn't caught on to what this is.
> 
> There are other decent products out there, but USA Frogs bashing of repashy is a shameless and shallow attempt to provide separation between them and the hobby and to make it's sound like, they're on to something special, when nothing could be further from the truth.


A customer just pointed me to the website comment above, and after reading it, I came to the boards here to search the company name because I had never heard of these guys before..... and I found this thread.

I can't believe that after so many years, and so much success with our products in the hobby, and the fact that Vitamin A deficiency has proven to be a big issue with dendro's, anybody in their right mind could bash our products and promote a regiment that uses no preformed Vitamin A.

I don't keep up much on the who's who in the frog breeding world, nor have I read anything but the last few posts of this thread, but I think their arguments are quite silly, and anybody that reads it and has been around the hobby for a while will get a good insight into their their caveman reasoning, and the potential quality of the frogs they produce. It seems their whole philosophy is to go against the grain, alienate themselves, and try to say that everyone but them is wrong? ......Okey Dokey . 

In every "Hobby" there seems to be a company that comes forward like this who's Business model is to "capture" uneducated "Newbies" and make a few bucks off them before they have a chance to wise up and learn what is real and what isn't. 

I obviously don't like their statement because it is about our product, but more importantly, it isn't professional to go out of your way to bash ANY product, especially when it is directly connected to the marketing of a competing product. I have always sold and promoted my products on their merits and unique properties, and promoted them for the good things they do..... not by saying what is bad about other products. 

PS..... from reading one of the posts above, evidently they made some other comments about our company that I did not get to read... probably a good move on their part! 
Allen


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

never got the chance to see the video or comments yet.. but trying to find it at work, I came across this..
wascher(DOT)com/dartfrogwarehouse.html

is this another/new name for them or I just missed this one in the past posts ???


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Allen Repashy said:


> PS..... from reading one of the posts above, evidently they made some other comments about our company that I did not get to read... probably a good move on their part!
> Allen


I have those comment screen captured someplace if you are interested Allen. They basically claimed that you had paid advocates here on the board. They've also made claims that testing proves their no methylparaben media outperforms repashy Superfly. Of course they offer no actual evidence, unlike you who openly shared the development of Superfly with our community.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Here is the original text they had up on their site for a while so Allen doesn't have to go searching through this thread for it.



USA Frog said:


> How much supplement do I add to the flies I gather before I feed? Use a plastic culture cup when gathering flies. Add just enough supplement to make them grey and so they cannot climb the side of the cup, that's it! With that said, some popular supplements are ineffective and the waste is too high. For example, Repashy Calcium Plus is a popular supplement. We used it for a while a long time ago. It is very expensive when you consider the waste fraction. *In fact, paid advocates for Repashy* say the junk left in the cup after feeding should be discarded. This advice not only proves the ineffectiveness, but testifies to the wastefullness as well. They don't hide it, they openly tell you to toss it out and openly say what is left over is ineffective. Believe them, but switch to another mix. (We could be a huige Repashy proponent if they reformulated it, and it worked a lot better.)


(original text intentionally includes the misspellings that were present at the time this was quoted)

Also, this baseless claim is still actively up on their website.



USA Frog said:


> Independent, multiple customer tests, proves our FLYDOH™ media out-performs Repashy fly culture media, and all other methylparenben based media as well!


I challenge Rick to provide a link to those independent, multiple customer tests, with data and details as to just exactly HOW their media outperforms Repashy. What was used as a performance measure? Who performed the tests? Lets see evidence of their scientific method.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



yeloowtang said:


> never got the chance to see the video or comments yet.. but trying to find it at work, I came across this..
> wascher(DOT)com/dartfrogwarehouse.html
> 
> is this another/new name for them or I just missed this one in the past posts ???


That site is not new, but is different from when I visited it last. There is more false information on their frogs and less religious stuff (still present though).

John


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I find it funny that in the quote from their website its states they quite using Repashy a long time ago. 
That implies that they have been on the scene a long time. If I'm not mistaken 2 years isn't really considered a long time. 
Just another statement to make others think they have any clue about what they are doing.


----------



## Allen Repashy

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Also, this baseless claim is still actively up on their website.


Actually I don't mind a bit that it is up on their site still. Anything that creates a line of separation between my Company and theirs is just fine with me! I am not worried about people choosing sides, that's for sure. They are their own worst enemy by posting stuff like that.

Allen


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Allen Repashy said:


> Actually I don't mind a bit that it is up on their site still. Anything that creates a line of separation between my Company and theirs is just fine with me! I am not worried about people choosing sides, that's for sure. They are their own worst enemy by posting stuff like that.
> 
> Allen


A very good point. This is something I've suggested as well as it relates to their patents. Anything they do that clearly identifies them and separates them from us, does have a silver lining. The last thing anyone besides them and their shills wants, is to have their frogs or anything they do, associated ip with USA Frog, the Wascher, or Rick.

Ironically, they're wasting their money registering trademarks everyone else will avoid like the plague.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Allen Repashy said:


> Actually I don't mind a bit that it is up on their site still. Anything that creates a line of separation between my Company and theirs is just fine with me! I am not worried about people choosing sides, that's for sure. They are their own worst enemy by posting stuff like that.
> 
> Allen


Although...if you wanted to go after them for slandering your products (amazing by the way, wouldn't use anything other than calcium plus)...I mean, couldn't you?


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

FrogMatchtm "Go-to-Market" Program
This program is very streamlined. As a purchaser of our A1 Sexed Pair(s), or a male/female A1 couple you pair together forming sexed pair(s), and they breed for you, you may market the offspring on our FrogZooMall site for a small percentage of what you take in from your sales, at least two first picks from every batch of ten froglets, or a combination of both, our choice. 

Contradicting everything they have ever said about never taking frogs in from anywhere.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

FrogMatchtm Breeder Program
Here is how it works. We will post a clear, high resolution pic and bio of our frog available for a FrogMatch mate pairing. For an example now, see the male Oyapok frog below. He is currently paired with a female and will soon be a "proven" male. If you have an equally outstanding female Oyapok, preferably proven, that you feel would make a fantastic pair with this male Oyapok, you would fill out the form below (yet to be generated and provided) and send us a high resolution pic of your dart frog female. (The form will require you to attest the good health of your frog, and outright ownership of it.) 

Oyapok Male
If we agree on a match, then we have a successful pairing under the FrogMatch program. From there, we we will both sign a very simple breeder contract. The contract requires all of the breeding to be done here at our main facility, and spells out the terms for ownership of offspring and perhaps the adults under a purchase option (discussed below). 

At that point in time, you will send us your dart frog at your expense. (Of course, you are welcome to hand deliver the frog and have a tour if you wish, but please know, you will be required to sign a confidentiality agreement for all tours.) Please schedule the visit in advance, and any subsequent visit by giving us a call to be sure we do not have a client meeting, or facility cleaning day, etc. Oh yeah, each breeding project under the program yields data we will add to our research, so rest assured we will take very good notes, provide periodic status pics and updates you can log-in to review. We can even run a webcam for you when we see the courting! 

If the pair we matched breeds, we split the offspring! If they don't, and we have tried for at least four (4) months per the agreement to enable us to try at least one different enclosure/environment, then we can keep trying by agreeing to ano0ther four months or give up, your call. In the alternative, we can offer another FrogMatch possibility for your frog if it is proven before you send it. If you want to "pull the plug", no problem, we will pay the return shipping of your frog using the same shipping method you used. Our time and effort is lost, but as always, no matter what, we solely own the copyrights to the pics and solely own the data we collected. 

More likely, when we score and get some good eggs, we split the frogs as we said. Then we have to decide how long we let the breeding continue. We recommend at least a hundred eggs and a few months in order to be able to see the froglets. All offspring at the froglet stage is divied up by a first pick, second/third pick rotation. You get the first pick, we get the second and third picks, you get the fourth we we get the fifth...and we alternate single picks from there. 

If you wish to stop the active breeding at any time, we will do so immediately. You would then pay the shipping to get your frog back, and the offspring would follow as soon as they are strong enough to send. If you want to buy out our frog, or we buy out yours, a set price will have been established when we started. Some, all, or none of the offspring to date may be part of the deal, e.g., the buyer gets the adults and the seller gets the froglets, etc., in addition to cash flowing either way. All of the business issues will be negotiated early so there is no quibbling between us later.

Of course, this is the general framework, but we can work out any arrangement that suits us both. 

*[Please note, captive bred stock only, NO wild caught frogs. We do not own any wild caught frogs, never have, and never will. Morever, we will not allow any wild caught frogs into our facility because of the inherent risks of diseases attributable to wild caught frogs. A statement of frog health, and in some instances a fecal test will be required.]
*


Contradictory BS of course....


----------



## Slengteng

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> FrogMatchtm Breeder Program
> Here is how it works. We will post a clear, high resolution pic and bio of our frog available for a FrogMatch mate pairing. For an example now, see the male Oyapok frog below. He is currently paired with a female and will soon be a "proven" male. If you have an equally outstanding female Oyapok, preferably proven, that you feel would make a fantastic pair with this male Oyapok, you would fill out the form below (yet to be generated and provided) and send us a high resolution pic of your dart frog female. (The form will require you to attest the good health of your frog, and outright ownership of it.)
> 
> Oyapok Male
> If we agree on a match, then we have a successful pairing under the FrogMatch program. From there, we we will both sign a very simple breeder contract. The contract requires all of the breeding to be done here at our main facility, and spells out the terms for ownership of offspring and perhaps the adults under a purchase option (discussed below).
> 
> At that point in time, you will send us your dart frog at your expense. (Of course, you are welcome to hand deliver the frog and have a tour if you wish, but please know, you will be required to sign a confidentiality agreement for all tours.) Please schedule the visit in advance, and any subsequent visit by giving us a call to be sure we do not have a client meeting, or facility cleaning day, etc. Oh yeah, each breeding project under the program yields data we will add to our research, so rest assured we will take very good notes, provide periodic status pics and updates you can log-in to review. We can even run a webcam for you when we see the courting!
> 
> If the pair we matched breeds, we split the offspring! If they don't, and we have tried for at least four (4) months per the agreement to enable us to try at least one different enclosure/environment, then we can keep trying by agreeing to ano0ther four months or give up, your call. In the alternative, we can offer another FrogMatch possibility for your frog if it is proven before you send it. If you want to "pull the plug", no problem, we will pay the return shipping of your frog using the same shipping method you used. Our time and effort is lost, but as always, no matter what, we solely own the copyrights to the pics and solely own the data we collected.
> 
> More likely, when we score and get some good eggs, we split the frogs as we said. Then we have to decide how long we let the breeding continue. We recommend at least a hundred eggs and a few months in order to be able to see the froglets. All offspring at the froglet stage is divied up by a first pick, second/third pick rotation. You get the first pick, we get the second and third picks, you get the fourth we we get the fifth...and we alternate single picks from there.
> 
> If you wish to stop the active breeding at any time, we will do so immediately. You would then pay the shipping to get your frog back, and the offspring would follow as soon as they are strong enough to send. If you want to buy out our frog, or we buy out yours, a set price will have been established when we started. Some, all, or none of the offspring to date may be part of the deal, e.g., the buyer gets the adults and the seller gets the froglets, etc., in addition to cash flowing either way. All of the business issues will be negotiated early so there is no quibbling between us later.
> 
> Of course, this is the general framework, but we can work out any arrangement that suits us both.
> 
> *[Please note, captive bred stock only, NO wild caught frogs. We do not own any wild caught frogs, never have, and never will. Morever, we will not allow any wild caught frogs into our facility because of the inherent risks of diseases attributable to wild caught frogs. A statement of frog health, and in some instances a fecal test will be required.]
> *
> 
> 
> Contradictory BS of course....


Haha WTF! This is completely crazy! Who would be so crazy to send his frogs to them? You get the first pick (i am a noob but i heard that its very possible that the first clutch wont be good?) we the second and third you the fourth and we the fifth! Seriously?
Do they drugs or something!?


----------



## Medic1

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow, that's some of the most out-there bunch of crap I've read!! Talk about greasy car salesmen! Sounds like a scheme to try and steal frogs from people who don't know better. Granted, their whole website looks like a sham, so you'd have to be fairly dull to not grasp that it's a scam.


----------



## ZenMonkey

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



big_frog said:


> So this thread is all hear say garbage and nobody should use it to decide weather or not to buy from them.. People ask or want facts and first hand knowledge but you can't share it? I call BS


Since you are (rightfully) concerned with the subject of hearsay versus facts, whatever happened to that source you promised me that supports your claim of dart frogs living one year on average in captivity? I'm pretty sure that information would be extremely useful to everyone and would place you in no danger of a ban.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So they can request fecal samples? Why would Rick start caring about that now? Hahaha why would anyone pay to ship him a frog and trust Ricks word on whatever thd breeding results when they can buy their own tincs for the same cost or less? I can just see some poor gullible kid showing off an empty viv at his house to his friends and say he has his own pet frog but its being housed in Tennessee right now. Rick sure is a great guy when it comes to drafting up business plans...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Allen Repashy said:


> I can't believe that after so many years, and so much success with our products in the hobby, and the fact that Vitamin A deficiency has proven to be a big issue with dendro's, anybody in their right mind could bash our products and promote a regiment that uses no preformed Vitamin A.


It`s quite simple really.
The people they are targeting haven`t a clue what Vitamin A is.

Allen, they don`t care. Their entire business is built upon making themselves look educated ( epic fail) and telling everyone who`ll listen in the most cartoonish unprofessional way that they wrote the book on these animals and we`re the one`s out to screw people.

I no longer visit their "website" because it make`s me want to throw my computer through the damn window.

Thanks Allen...and stop by more often darn it!


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They can't seem to open their mouth without making a new enemy...

Dear USAdart, 
Dart froggin... you're doing it wrong! 

Sincerely yours,
Anyone who gives 2 poops about the hobby


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh brother ...
Still deliberately misrepresenting information from the hobby and still just as clueless as ever.



UsaFrogs said:


> USA Frog is responsible for many frog related discoveries!
> 
> It has long been taught by the frog collector hobby that the offspring of two parent frogs of the same species, but dissimilar variety (e.g., different color and pattern and locale as recognized by the hobby) would result in hybrid (sterile) offspring. Months ago, we were the first to announce this common understanding was actually a common mis-understanding. At that time we did not provide visual evidence.
> 
> November 19-20, 2014
> Now, for the first time ever, USA Frog proudly announces and presents two (2) new Tinctorius as proofs never before offered by anyone, anywhere, at any time, such that:
> 
> 1. Tinctorius offspring of tinctorius parents that are dissimilar in variety (i.e., two (2) different and distinct varieties as recognized by the dart frog collector hobby) are not hybrid!
> 
> For clarity, we bred a male and a female from two, same species, dissimilar classical varieties (same species variety "A" & variety "B") of tinctorius dart frogs to produce AB offspring. (We did this with more than one pairing.) The hobby experts said the AB offspring would be small, sickly, and hybrid. The absolute opposite is true!
> 
> We then raised the AB offspring to full maturity, and selected a fully mature AB male and a fully mature AB female from the offspring sets, same species of course. We bred the same species AB male and AB female. THE AB MALE AND AB FEMALE ARE NOT HYBRID! THEY PRODUCED AMAZING OFFSPRING!
> 
> Offspring from the AB/AB pairings are first generation, two of which you see below! The photos are of typical frogs, and yes they are that gorgeous, and these most assuredly cannot be imported from the wild!
> 
> This further evidences "a Tinc is a Tinc" as presented by the experts Lotters et al., saying the "varieties" are NOT species in themselves, and detectable genetic differences should be attributed to appearance alone. Any differences in color and pattern of Tinctorius simply means the same frog looks different, just like people. This is exactly what "polymorphism" means–just as the experts have always said.
> 
> We announced our proofs months ago and present the photos now. We remain steadfast behind our position and promote SAFE® captive bred frogs of the DESIGNER® variety to render importations of wild caught frogs unnecessary. Enjoy!
> 
> ANOTHER FIRST ONLY from USA Frog!
> LIVING PROOF that LOTTERS, JUNGFER, HENKEL and SCHMIDT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN RIGHT!
> USA Frog QUASAR™
> Yes! Their skin is metallic looking! Gorgeous and spectacular!
> 100% Tinctorius: Tinctorius QUASAR (above) and Tinctorius NEUTRINO (below) ONLY from USA Frog!
> USA Frog NEUTRINO™
> REMOVES ALL DOUBT FOREVER!
> 100% TINCTORIUS PARENTS
> EACH PARENT IS ITSELF THE OFFSPRING OF DISSIMILAR "VARIETY" PARENT FROGS.
> The blue frog is our USA Frog Tinctorius QUASAR™!
> The yellow frog is our USA Frog Tinctorius NEUTRINO™!


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh God it hurts make it stop!


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So they recently discovered that breeding two frogs of the same species together results in fertile offspring?

Glad to see that they are not afraid of undertaking groundbreaking research


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



epiphytes etc. said:


> Oh God it hurts make it stop!


Exactly what I was thinking. I just cannot stand all the psudoscience and lies anymore.... 

John


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> ANOTHER FIRST ONLY from USA Frog!


I'm not going to... but off the top of my head I could list a couple threads from this forum that are solid proof that they were absolutely not the first to do that...

lies lies lies... anything to sell a frog.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> I'm not going to... but off the top of my head I could list a couple threads from this forum that are solid proof that they were absolutely not the first to do that...
> 
> lies lies lies... anything to sell a frog.


I've been thinking the exact same thing. The ignorance is astounding. They actually believe that they were the first to do this. I know of at least three, specific examples, which directly contradict their claim of being the first to breed mixed morph offspring. The thing is, no one cares, it's not ground breaking, amazing, or anything special. It doesn't prove anything other than that USA Frog is woefully uninformed and disconnected from reality.

Those mixed morph offspring, are muted and fugly looking IMO, which is actually typical, we have all known this for a while.

It's also comical that they still continue to try to define hybrid based on ability to reproduce, despite having been corrected numerous times.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It's so hard not to correct the intentional lies here. I swear we're being trolled. The paragraph starts off claiming they've done something no one believed could be done (wrong), then finishes up saying it proves what all the experts believed could be done (not wrong, just contextually misleading).

There is an upside to all this. As their claims get increasingly ridiculous and their logic becomes even more circular, anyone with even a modicum of understanding about genetics will see at least 3 impossibilities there. I can't remember, was it 9th grade biology where we learned that the terms "hybrid" and "sterile" were not necessarily synonyms, or does that go all the way back to grade school? Also, how are these hybrids? 

As far as I can tell, Rick and family are the only ones I've EVER heard intimate that a cross between any two Dendrobates would automatically be sterile. He's been corrected on that about a billion times but holds fast to that claim. 

So...if he believed that, and now he doesn't...I guess this is a "first" because it's the first time I've ever heard him say he was wrong about something.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I believe we need to start using the term 'selective reading' when describing their "research". That is: they read what they want it to be, not what is actually written on the thing in front of them.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> They actually believe that they were the first to do this. I know of at least three, specific examples, which directly contradict their claim of being the first to breed mixed morph offspring. The thing is, no one cares, it's not ground breaking, amazing, or anything special. It doesn't prove anything other than that USA Frog is woefully uninformed and disconnected from reality.


Right?! I clearly remember them claiming that a significant portion of the varieties currently in the hobby were the from crosses, or at the very least, had unreliable lineage. How can you state that most of the species in the hobby are of mixed lineage to service one argument, and a few months later claim to be the first to create a designer line of frogs?


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Right?! I clearly remember them claiming that a significant portion of the varieties currently in the hobby were the from crosses, or at the very least, had unreliable lineage. How can you state that most of the species in the hobby are of mixed lineage to service one argument, and a few months later claim to be the first to create a designer line of frogs?


But Doug, clearly Ricky has reserved the right to change his mind anytime he deems appropriate:




UsaFrog.com website" said:


> We update our site often and do it as "live edits". We do not do "up loads" or take the site "down" when we update. We simply open the editor and type in the new, remove the old, fix what was wrong, correct spelling, etc., save, and move on. More specifically, at any time we may change text, the way we say things, even what or how we say things. We are led in part by inspiration. These changes may appear instantly, but this dynamic sometimes frustrates those that are uncomfortable with changes, and feeds the critic with temporary fuel. Whenever you see a screen shot of something we wrote, please be sure it is still on our site. It may have been removed as an edit, correction, or typo. For now, thus, while we strive to continually improve the site, please accept our apologies for any frustration this may cause you, and always consider this site a work in progress, please. Many thanks! USA Frog


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> But Doug, clearly Ricky has reserved the right to change his mind anytime he deems appropriate:


oh so then the next time someone says something really inappropriate on twitter or facebook as long as they delete it then they never meant it in the first place, right? That could save a lot of people their jobs/reputations. Quick, someone tell Charlie Sheen!

phew... glad that has been cleared up


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> oh so then the next time someone says something really inappropriate on twitter or facebook as long as they delete it then they never meant it in the first place, right? That could save a lot of people their jobs/reputations. Quick, someone tell Charlie Sheen!
> 
> phew... glad that has been cleared up


Rick missed his calling. He'd make a great politician. He has no problem lying thru his teeth, twisting facts, or flat out making things up if it serves his own selfish gains.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> ..... and feeds the critic with temporary fuel. Whenever you see a screen shot of something we wrote, please be sure it is still on our site. It may have been removed as an edit, correction, or typo.


Ever on the defensive. Rick, you cannot hide from the lies you have told. 

Here is a notion, be honest, tell the truth, stop misinforming your customers, stop claiming to be things you're not.... And guess what, other than the occational laughable spelling errors we all love to poke fun at, you won't have Nearly as much to edit.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I still cannot understand the mixing mentality. Even Rick has acknowledged that he shouldn't be mixing frogs. If any of you new members haven't looked yet, check out the science tab of their page. Go to the picture he referenced from Lotters page 236. He put red boxes around 2 paragraphs. Read the last sentence in the bottom circled box. Rick, what the hell is wrong with you? Please please PLEASE, post an update on this for me. I would really like to understand how you mentally justify this statement. You are most certainly not an expert and you do not follow any advice from any of them. You are a gigantic hypocrite that can't be taken seriously. Can you please just find a new business because everything you are doing is just absolutely horrible.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> I still cannot understand the mixing mentality. Even Rick has acknowledged that he shouldn't be mixing frogs. If any of you new members haven't looked yet, check out the science tab of their page. Go to the picture he referenced from Lotters page 236. He put red boxes around 2 paragraphs. Read the last sentence in the bottom circled box. Rick, what the hell is wrong with you? Please please PLEASE, post an update on this for me. I would really like to understand how you mentally justify this statement. You are most certainly not an expert and you do not follow any advice from any of them. You are a gigantic hypocrite that can't be taken seriously. Can you please just find a new business because everything you are doing is just absolutely horrible.


Yes that bugged me as well. He takes the Lotters statement about the hobby names not being used in scientific nomenclature and adds that to Lotters statement where Lotters goes through the trouble to specifically make the point, "responsible breeders won't mix species or even varieties" to in total = "Personal choice".  

Nevermind the 2 separate contexts of those remarks, Rick once again comes to our rescue and interprets the "truth" for us... our savior! 

For some reason Rick doesn't seem to feel that the facts, or truth from his source material is self evident, and feels a need to reinterpret it for his audience. That in itself wouldn't be so bad if he didn't warp it in the process or leave bits out like when he references the Lotters statement about responsible breeders not mixing species or varieties then talks about how they don't crossbreed species but then omits the part where they do cross varieties. Which just makes this quote from their website all the more precious...

*"Their treatise is more than a book. It is THE one and only true authority in print. Too many other works and web resources have proven to be agenda driven, biased, and intentionally or recklessly obfuscate the basic scientific facts governing these frogs. We whole heartedly rejoice in the truth presented by Lotters, et al., and it is with great thanks and appreciation we use excerpts from their work and recommend it completely! USA Frog"*

LOL... Are you kidding me? ...Sadly it seems they are not. Are they really this comfortable with being so deceptive? ...Or are they so delusional they don't see it as being deceptive?  ...I don't know, but I wish we had one of those popcorn emoticons


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Yes that bugged me as well. He takes the Lotters statement about the hobby names not being used in scientific nomenclature and adds that to Lotters statement where Lotters goes through the trouble to specifically make the point, "responsible breeders won't mix species or even varieties" to in total = "Personal choice".
> 
> Nevermind the 2 separate contexts of those remarks, Rick once again comes to our rescue and interprets the "truth" for us... our savior!
> 
> For some reason Rick doesn't seem to feel that the facts, or truth from his source material is self evident, and feels a need to reinterpret it for his audience. That in itself wouldn't be so bad if he didn't warp it in the process or leave bits out like when he references the Lotters statement about responsible breeders not mixing species or varieties then talks about how they don't crossbreed species but then omits the part where they do cross varieties. Which just makes this quote from their website all the more precious...
> 
> *"Their treatise is more than a book. It is THE one and only true authority in print. Too many other works and web resources have proven to be agenda driven, biased, and intentionally or recklessly obfuscate the basic scientific facts governing these frogs. We whole heartedly rejoice in the truth presented by Lotters, et al., and it is with great thanks and appreciation we use excerpts from their work and recommend it completely! USA Frog"*
> 
> LOL... Are you kidding me? ...Sadly it seems they are not. Are they really this comfortable with being so deceptive? ...Or are they so delusional they don't see it as being deceptive?  ...I don't know, but I wish we had one of those popcorn emoticons


It was *very *hard for me to press the like button on this post, just because of all that crap DFW wrote. These guys take propaganda to the next level, it just blows me away how ignorant and hypocritical they are. Thanks for posting that Dave, I'm done with visiting their site for a while and its much nicer to get small chunks of their propaganda rather than getting hit by it all at once 




Mmmmm...... popcorn.......

John


----------



## stevenhman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'm very disheartened to see that these people are still an issue.

Could anything on their site be considered libel? Also, the last time I checked, many of their images were stolen from other sites.
Kingsnake TOS Kingsnake.com Classifieds > Terms of Service


> Anyone using kingsnake.com, or its other related sites and/or features to post pornography, profanity, possibly libelous or slanderous, racist, or threatening messages will immediately have their account terminated.


and



> The use of images or photographs or anything else that is the work product of other individuals or businesses in your classified advertising without their prior express written permission is strictly prohibited. Anyone found to be violating trademark or copyright laws, is subject to the immediate termination of this contract for breach, and their access to classified and other account services will be immediately terminated.


It would seem that they must be selling some frogs to continue burning cash on all these ads, shows, etc - which is disgusting and sad.


----------



## spawn

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Does anybody have an approximation of how many actual frogs they're producing and distributing? I have seen prices of D. azureus and D. lecuomelas and D. tinc morphs drop substantially in the last 12 months and I was wondering if it was because retailers were being flooded with the new, cheap offspring. I've been disconnected from the dart frog hobby for a couple years now so I really don't know, just curious how far and deep this company's products have penetrated and whether it's infected all levels of the industry yet and how careful I should be if I ever look into getting into the market again.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



spawn said:


> Does anybody have an approximation of how many actual frogs they're producing and distributing? I have seen prices of D. azureus and D. lecuomelas and D. tinc morphs drop substantially in the last 12 months and I was wondering if it was because retailers were being flooded with the new, cheap offspring. I've been disconnected from the dart frog hobby for a couple years now so I really don't know, just curious how far and deep this company's products have penetrated and whether it's infected all levels of the industry yet and how careful I should be if I ever look into getting into the market again.


Well at the growth rate of their b.s. on production they should have produced over 10k by now. In the video they had a lot of tad cups (none labeled of course). No one knows for sure what their true numbers are though. When you go to buy more just make sure you trust the person. With as many as they claim selling  there must be a lot of people hiding where there frogs came from.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> *"Their treatise is more than a book. It is THE one and only true authority in print. Too many other works and web resources have proven to be agenda driven, biased, and intentionally or recklessly obfuscate the basic scientific facts governing these frogs. We whole heartedly rejoice in the truth presented by Lotters, et al., and it is with great thanks and appreciation we use excerpts from their work and recommend it completely! USA Frog"*
> 
> LOL... Are you kidding me? ...Sadly it seems they are not. Are they really this comfortable with being so deceptive? ...Or are they so delusional they don't see it as being deceptive?  ...I don't know, but I wish we had one of those popcorn emoticons


Ironic considering that www.agendadriven,biased,andintentio...hebasicscientificfactsgoverningthesefrogs.com should be the next web address they reserve for their own use. The answer that Rick tries to insinuate, though never says it, is that all tincs are the same variety, even though that is clearly not Lotters intent.

The real answer, though, was found on their site a couple of revisions ago when Rick said something like, "Hey guys, relax. Remember, these are only frogs we're talking about here." The truth is, conserving/protecting/respecting what we currently have in captivity isn't important, because in the big picture frogs aren't important. 

Honestly, it absolutely breaks my heart when I think of the money, time, and resources that this family has poured into this venture. This hobby is it's own worst enemy in some ways and I can't help but wonder what all those resources would have done had they not been misdirected into something detrimental.


----------



## spawn

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So at this point unless I'm buying from a known breeder or importer, we pretty much have to assume these guys have sunk their claws into any of the retailers?


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



spawn said:


> So at this point unless I'm buying from a known breeder or importer, we pretty much have to assume these guys have sunk their claws into any of the retailers?


Depends what retailers. Any major retail I would never buy from. Sponsors here I would not worry about(not sure about LLL but I wont buy from a place that calls them Arrow frogs anyway). Just make sure you know of the person or a friend can confirm them. 
You could always just keep pums and thumbs, DFW hasn't claimed to attempt with them yet.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



spawn said:


> So at this point unless I'm buying from a known breeder or importer, we pretty much have to assume these guys have sunk their claws into any of the retailers?


Just buy from someone respectable. Don't assume anything. Ask questions. If your seller cannot or will not identify the source or line info on their frogs, there is probably a good reason why and you should not buy from them.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Just buy from someone respectable. Don't assume anything. Ask questions. If your seller cannot or will not identify the source or line info on their frogs, there is probably a good reason why and you should not buy from them.


That should be the norm anyway. But more so now because of the Munsters


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

must be working cause I think he's driving a E550 benz....lots of froggy $$$$$


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> must be working cause I think he's driving a E550 benz....lots of froggy $$$$$


You're joking right? So what if he drives a Benz. You're assuming that this comes from frog sales, which is laughable. 

Rick's background as an attourney is something that most of us are aware of and likely the source of income for that car if indeed he is driving one. Let's not forget, not too long ago, they sold the corvette and blew his college fund on this I'll advised venture. I highly doubt Rick has made enough money to provide for a mid range Beamer, and let's assume for a second that it did, shoots a big fat hole in the boat that is the lie that this is his kids baby and that he is just their general counsel. If it really is Dillion's baby, and his dad is siphoning off money to buy himself a BWnz that's really pathetic.

This sounds like another case of you shilling for them but really having no clue what you're talking about.


----------



## brendan0923

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The dart frog hobby really isn't even popular enough to provide that kind of revenue. Not to mention the fact that the dart frog hobby is pretty much a buyers market at this point. Not enough demand.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> You're joking right? .


yes....



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Rick's background as an attourney is something that most of us are aware of


hence the silly claims, hes building a pattern for a law suit would be my guess, even if he didn't win, he would make people spend money to get legal advise....



ZookeeperDoug said:


> If it really is Dillion's baby,


IRS tax dodge?

in closeing if the man made it through law school, hes not a simpleton...if you think hes winding you up he prob is.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> hence the silly claims, hes building a pattern for a law suit would be my guess, even if he didn't win, he would make people spend money to get legal advise....


Pretty sure he actually believes all his silly claims. I suppose we should all be really worried. If he didn't win, he'd be on the hook for the other party's attorney fees.



> IRS tax dodge?


Maybe, but there is no evidence for that. That is the kind of libelous claim that if asserted, COULD get someone sued, so let's be clear, that is your suggestion, not mine. I don't think it is anything other than a very poorly thought out business plan.



> in closeing if the man made it through law school, hes not a simpleton...if you think hes winding you up he is


Don't be so sure. I've met some pretty stupid lawyers. Who ever said he made it thru law school anyways? Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Don't really care actually. 

What we do know is he has absolutely no understanding of basic scientific principles but will twist the words of actual scientists to suit his needs.

And I don't think he is winding anyone up, except perhaps you.


----------



## ZenMonkey

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

As far as newbies buying from this place, maybe we can help besides keeping threads like this alive. Anyone with a blog or website that's indexed by Google could post an entry or page listing DFW and "the other one" as places to avoid. Emphasize facts, first-hand experiences, and scientific refutation of claims rather than personal biases and ad hominem or irrelevant attacks. If it's strictly informative and credible, I don't think it's libelous (please correct me) and it will start turning up in Google searches for these places along with the forum threads. 

Just an idea. If it needs to be shot down, be my guest. ;-)


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Oh brother ...
> Still deliberately misrepresenting information from the hobby and still just as clueless as ever.


Ya where is this hidden sect of the hobby who flunked Jr. High biology and has been perpetuating this myth? ..I've been around awhile, but don't remember anyone ever saying crossing two morphs would result in sterile frogs. Species maybe, but not morphs...Wasn't that one of the main reasons we are against it? ...Yes, because some jack ass with no regard for anything but their own selfish desires and the almighty dollar might release them into the hobby.

And please explain to me how helping to make it impossible to someday find and buy a CB pure Azureus or cobalt tinc helps the wild azureus or cobalt tincs? Where are we supposed to get an actual azureus when there are no actual azureus left in the hobby because a bunch of selfish morons Frankensteined them out of existence?

...The wild?


Maybe they'll be extinct in the wild by then... So I guess problem solved. Oh! ...snap, crackle, pop™ I get it!. No fresh imports because they are extinct both here and in the wild. Oh that's clever Rick. If only more conservationists were that clever so many more species would be SAFE™! 

...Hmm you guys don't think their plan could actually be to drive demand up for fresh wild frogs by scaring the hobby with the prospect of thousands of Frankenstein frogs flooding the market and hold out through the new import of fresh blood by selling some pure frogs while continuing to muddy the gene pool by mass producing those tainted frogs and duping the noobs into helping them before responsible breeders get to them, and then be positioned as the leader in franken frogs when the pure lines finally collapse and wild replacements are extinct? That would be... *Diabolical.*

Nah... I'm over thinking it. These "experts" just figured out 2 animals of the same species could produce fertile offspring LOL. Besides you'd probably have to be evil and/or delusional to think it was a good idea, let alone try to perpetrate it or something like it against a community or a species, right? I don't know, maybe we should ask an "expert"...

Rick? ..Are we SAFE™?


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What's up with those bashers on the hobby boards? 

We forgive and wish them the best! Please read our Customer Reviews for what people who actually deal with us have to say.


lol


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> What's up with those bashers on the hobby boards?
> 
> We forgive and wish them the best! Please read our Customer Reviews for what people who actually deal with us have to say.
> 
> 
> lol


Riiiiiiiight.... Because they'd actually post a negative review on their own website.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Riiiiiiiight.... Because they'd actually post a negative review on their own website.


Only trust third party feedback, kids!


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

If I am not mistaken, haven't past customers come here and regretted buying from USA Frog?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> If I am not mistaken, haven't past customers come here and regretted buying from USA Frog?


There are a few. I remember some posts along the way from people who purchased Oyapoks who are now not certain that's what they got. USA Frog promptly removed one of the reviews on their site by Bill after he posted here. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse-post1626562.html#post1626562


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> There are a few. I remember some posts along the way from people who purchased Oyapoks who are now not certain that's what they got. USA Frog promptly removed one of the reviews on their site by Bill after he posted here.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse-post1626562.html#post1626562



it should be noted for transparency sake that the person in that link has over 130 posts on this board.... the VAST bulk is in selling Frogs.....

would love to know how the frogs he bought are doing now....


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> it should be noted for transparency sake that the person in that link has over 130 posts on this board.... the VAST bulk is in selling Frogs.....
> 
> would love to know how the frogs he bought are doing now....


Then let us also note for the sake of transparency...

Yet with less then 200 posts his is a name I recognize. There are some well known names out there that have been active in the hobby for years, but not on the forums much except to post some frogs for sale, but that doesnt mean they haven't done more for the hobby then you or USAdart probably ever will.

Plus to my knowledge he has not broken most of the hobby taboos and put those that bought from him in an akward position, who bought in good faith that he wouldn't become public enemy #1 in the hobby a few months later. Oh, and he has mostly stayed out of this drama...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> it should be noted for transparency sake that the person in that link has over 130 posts on this board.... the VAST bulk is in selling Frogs.....


Bill is a known quantity which is why I referenced his quote specifically. The fact that you attack the merits of his statement based on what little you know of him, ie his post count and types of posts you think he makes, only exposes the fact that you're completely out of your depth in this discussion. This is typical though when you cannot address the merits, attempt to discredit the source, which is all you seem to have when you continue to harp on the "It's because they're competition" accusation.

But...


You tried...



> would love to know how the frogs he bought are doing now....


Knowing what we know about Bill, they're probably doing just fine. In spite of or no thanks to, USA Frog.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> ...but that doesnt mean they haven't done more for the hobby then you or USAdart probably ever will.


You can spin it any way you want, you don't know me at all,
to suggest I can't have a positive impact "on the hobby"
corrupts your credibility



Dendro Dave said:


> hobby taboos


there are hundreds of "hobbists" that might not agree with your "Taboos"




ZookeeperDoug said:


> The fact that you attack the merits of his statement based on what little you know of him, ie his post count and types of posts you think he makes, only exposes the fact that you're completely out of your depth in this discussion. This is typical though when you cannot address the merits, attempt to discredit the source, which is all you seem to have when you continue to harp on the "It's because they're competition" accusation.


Not attacking him, prob a stand up guy, yet don't paint him as a rookie who got duped by DFW who has just a couple of frogs...




Dendro Dave said:


> Knowing what we know about Bill, they're probably doing just fine. In spite of or no thanks to, USA Frog.


A. did the frogs he got from DFW breed?
b. did the morph breed true?
c. was the froglets better? worse? avg? than other morphs of the same "strain"?

did they exibit better color? boldness? etc. etc. ?


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> You can spin it any way you want, you don't know me at all,
> to suggest I can't have a positive impact "on the hobby"
> corrupts your credibility


And why does no one here know you at all, then? This other poster is known, though not to you. You can do what you want, but having a positive impact on the hobby means actually doing something that helps the hobby.



> there are hundreds of "hobbists" that might not agree with your "Taboos"


Where does that number come from? Most people who I've seen listen to the concerns of the 'hobby' have agreed with them.




> Not attacking him, prob a stand up guy, yet don't paint him as a rookie who got duped by DFW who has just a couple of frogs...


No one painted him as a rookie or anything. You got the duped by DFW part right, though.




> A. did the frogs he got from DFW breed?
> b. did the morph breed true?
> c. was the froglets better? worse? avg? than other morphs of the same "strain"?
> 
> did they exibit better color? boldness? etc. etc. ?


What does any of this have to do with anything? The issues is with questionable genetics. No one here is claiming that mixed locality frogs do not produce offspring that resemble themselves. They can look as close to a locality frog as you want, but if the genetics are even somewhat questionable, then that's a problem. If they do exhibit better color, that may very well bolster the argument that they are not pure in the first place. I'm not really sure if you understand this at all. These guys have produced frogs for almost no time at all. What sort of magic do you think they're cooking up over there in only a generation or two??

I have to agree with the previous comment that you are way outside this conversation at this point. You're trying to pull in all sorts of non-issues while not addressing a single one of the legitimate concerns.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> You can spin it any way you want, you don't know me at all,
> to suggest I can't have a positive impact "on the hobby"
> corrupts your credibility
> 
> 
> 
> there are hundreds of "hobbists" that might not agree with your "Taboos"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not attacking him, prob a stand up guy, yet don't paint him as a rookie who got duped by DFW who has just a couple of frogs...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A. did the frogs he got from DFW breed?
> b. did the morph breed true?
> c. was the froglets better? worse? avg? than other morphs of the same "strain"?
> 
> did they exibit better color? boldness? etc. etc. ?


A kind word:

There is an obviously "huge" disconnect between what you "think" you are accomplishing on this thread/how you are coming off, and between what you are "actually" accomplishing/how you are coming off. 

Feel free to continue to play the DFW shill-troll role until your fingers drop off from typing. It's no skin off of my nose personally, and I found this information before purchasing. 

Here is the unfortunate hole you have dug yourself in a nutshell. The problems people here have with DFW are not only documented ad nausum, but are right there in thier website for all to see. That leaves only a few viable reasons for your continued attempts to snark and alter the conversation. 

None of them are working. You are not accomplishing anything beyond making yourself look foolish and argumentative. 

Feel free to continue, but am hoping to provide you with some neutral insight.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> You can spin it any way you want, you don't know me at all,
> to suggest I can't have a positive impact "on the hobby"
> corrupts your credibility


Oh so you thought I was insinuating something and you didn't like it? ...Don't you think your statements about Bill could have been taken in a similar way? Show others the same respect you just demanded, because when you don't it corrupts your credibility. 

Besides... 
I did qualify my statement with "probably", and never said you hadn't or couldn't do something positive for the hobby, but since so few that enter the hobby will ever make the positive impact Bill or a few other people have that happen to not post often to the forums, the odds are probably on my side.



MoCarp said:


> there are hundreds of "hobbists" that might not agree with your "Taboos"


That may be, but there are thousands of pedophiles out there too. What makes it taboo isn't that a few are OK with it but rather a majority aren't. Given the history of the topic over the last decade on the forums and how few speak up in favor of it, and the reaction they get when they do, and how few have spoken up for usadart and the reaction they get when they do... again the odds seem to be in my favor.

As for my credibility, it's pretty secure I think. After all I was defending someone who isn't hated throughout the hobby nor was myself, where as we can't say the same about you. While I can respect you for being willing to speak out even amongst overwhelming opposition, you should realize in doing so your credibility in the eyes of many here is in far more perile then mine, and many here aren't as forgiving as I when it comes to differences of opinion... so some friendly advice: *pick your battles carefully.*



MoCarp said:


> Not attacking him, prob a stand up guy, yet don't paint him as a rookie who got duped by DFW who has just a couple of frogs...


Maybe you weren't attacking him, but someone could very easily take what you said as implying or insinuating something negative... kinda like you did with my statements even with my qualifying remarks. 

Also IMO since USAdart from what we know didn't reveal their plans to people like Rusty who sold them frogs, or people like Bill who bought frogs and likely never imagined these people would end up becoming the most hated company in the hobby, while completely understandable I bet they feel a bit betrayed if not duped... Hell I and a lot of others who didn't buy from or sell to USAdart seem to.




MoCarp said:


> A. did the frogs he got from DFW breed?
> b. did the morph breed true?
> c. was the froglets better? worse? avg? than other morphs of the same "strain"?
> 
> did they exibit better color? boldness? etc. etc. ?


Well the quote connected to your response wasn't even something I said but I'll take a stab at addressing your remarks...

A, b, and C don't really matter much since the source is now considered tainted and public enemy #1 in the hobby.

Even if he can check "A OK" off on all 3 that doesn't change the fact he is stuck with frogs most people probably won't want anything to do with because of the source.

And why do you and the others keep glossing over the sleazy marketing, lies, misleading statements, BS pseudoscience etc..etc.. and just ask "ya, but are the frogs healthy?"... Like even if they were does that somehow excuse not only the extraordinary claims made by USAdart with little or no evidence, but also all that other crap?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Not attacking him, prob a stand up guy, yet don't paint him as a rookie who got duped by DFW who has just a couple of frogs...


I quoted him specifically for the exact OPPOSITE reason, that he ISNT a rookie. I know this, everyone else here, except you apparently, probably already knows this. The only one who was trying to paint him as something was you. YOU attacked his credibility, I chose his specific example specifically because he is credible. Ironic....


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Bill is a really well known quantity. He was my "neighbor" (OK, 40 minutes away) before I moved away from Maine (4 years ago).

Knowing Bill - he likely sold them as soon as he found out more. But feel free to ask him yourself (rather than trying to smear him).

s


MoCarp said:


> it should be noted for transparency sake that the person in that link has over 130 posts on this board.... the VAST bulk is in selling Frogs.....
> 
> would love to know how the frogs he bought are doing now....


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> You can spin it any way you want, you don't know me at all,
> to suggest I can't have a positive impact "on the hobby"
> corrupts your credibilty


You should worry less about Dave's ample credibility and more about your own. Who are you? You showed up here a year ago and have contributed nothing. You have 0 posts of substance.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> A. did the frogs he got from DFW breed?
> b. did the morph breed true?
> c. was the froglets better? worse? avg? than other morphs of the same "strain"?
> 
> did they exibit better color? boldness? etc. etc. ?


I have to hand it to you. You seem to be amazing at what you do...which is ask the same questions over and over again and then ignore the answers as well as any questions asked of you. It's almost as if you don't have a vested interest in the subject at all and just want to play debate on the internet. That can't be it, though, so here's some answers.

A. Why wouldn't they breed? Are you the person Rick is referring to when he talks about people not believing crossed frogs could breed? I'm surprised you're still confused on this issue.

B. Short of genetic testing, how could one even know the answer to that. If that were something that could be answered authoritatively by sight then these crossbreeds would represent a much smaller threat to the hobby. I'm surprised you're still confused on this issue.

C. What exactly is a "better" froglet? If I had to guess I would say you define "better" as "brighter and bolder". Do you believe that a line of brighter frogs can be bred in 2 generations, or even more ridiculous, do you believe "boldness" can be bred into a line of frogs within a few generations? How would one even do that over many, many generations without culling hundreds of thousands of adult frogs. I'm surprised you're still confused on this issue. 

The reason no one has made these kinds of claims before is because they are silly. The most rudimentary research or even a small exposure to the animals themselves makes most of these claims just laughable. The only ones being fooled are people with no exposure or education on the subject matter...and you. That is, unless you're just here to debate...I still haven't figured that out yet.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



epiphytes etc. said:


> You should worry less about Dave's ample credibility and more about your own. Who are you? You showed up here a year ago and have contributed nothing. You have 0 posts of substance.


before I found this board as well as other sources to learn all I could before I build a viv and kept Darts.

I came across a young kid frog room video...he seemed pre-puberty age 
( 10-14) as his voice had not changed.

I know how much I have in My exo set up and know what he had in the shelving etc.

In my research this kid had $23-$30k at least in his frog room not counting frogs

then I came across a unboxing vid, he had just bought a huge Sean Stewart Line of frogs order, cost of that ONE order was $5k!

seems the kid was slamming away the $ for his education as well as re-investing into his frog opperation.

I took in all the info even called someone at Josh Frogs for what kind of frogs to get. I wanted to keep more than just a pair so he suggested leucs, more common PDF not as costly a good 1st frog, I looked and looked and finally found 4 banded greenfooted froglets from a good breeder. (not DFW)

supply and demand drives price and if I had a hard time finding 4 common leucs, and ended getting something more costly.

saw the same frogs sell on this board for $300 each!


Flash forward....I read this thread one day and NEVER HEARD of DFW so I looked them up...what did I see? a place that sold darts WAY WAY less than anywhere I had looked . Most anyone would come to the conclusion that others who sell dart frogs are WAY butt hurt about someone pooting out frogs and driving the prices down. being in business, the old "F.U.D." seems to enter in here. 

Then I made a post to point that out that and all hell broke out!
then I dug deeper, so how much $ can someone make doing this?

using the numbers I see posted here someone could clear $30k a year easy.
thats was from the numbers on tad production etc.

so when you think Im a deep DFW plant to subvert this thread you would be wrong

as a blanket observation (if it doesn't apply do let it bother you) DFW isn't as bad as their detractors say they are AND the DFW detractors are not as innocent in their objections ( in my honest opinion $ not "the hobby" is the driving force against DFW)


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> before I found this board as well as other sources to learn all I could before I build a viv and kept Darts.
> 
> I came across a young kid frog room video...he seemed pre-puberty age
> ( 10-14) as his voice had not changed.
> 
> I know how much I have in My exo set up and know what he had in the shelving etc.
> 
> In my research this kid had $23-$30k at least in his frog room not counting frogs
> 
> then I came across a unboxing vid, he had just bought a huge Sean Stewart Line of frogs order, cost of that ONE order was $5k!
> 
> seems the kid was slamming away the $ for his education as well as re-investing into his frog opperation.
> 
> I took in all the info even called someone at Josh Frogs for what kind of frogs to get. I wanted to keep more than just a pair so he suggested leucs, more common PDF not as costly a good 1st frog, I looked and looked and finally found 4 banded greenfooted froglets from a good breeder. (not DFW)
> 
> supply and demand drives price and if I had a hard time finding 4 common leucs, and ended getting something more costly.
> 
> saw the same frogs sell on this board for $300 each!
> 
> 
> Flash forward....I read this thread one day and NEVER HEARD of DFW so I looked them up...what did I see? a place that sold darts WAY WAY less than anywhere I had looked . Most anyone would come to the conclusion that others who sell dart frogs are WAY butt hurt about someone pooting out frogs and driving the prices down. being in business, the old "F.U.D." seems to enter in here.
> 
> Then I made a post to point that out that and all hell broke out!
> then I dug deeper, so how much $ can someone make doing this?
> 
> using the numbers I see posted here someone could clear $30k a year easy.
> thats was from the numbers on tad production etc.
> 
> so when you think Im a deep DFW plant to subvert this thread you would be wrong
> 
> as a blanket observation (if it doesn't apply do let it bother you) DFW isn't as bad as their detractors say they are AND the DFW detractors are not as innocent in their objections ( in my honest opinion $ not "the hobby" is the driving force against DFW)


The issue that keeps all these reputable froggers posting here is not money. Dart frogs aren't a good hobby if you're only in it to make money. The issue here is one company coming out of nowhere, present crappy pseudoscience as fact and claiming that they are in every way superior to every established breeder and person in this hobby, all without a shred of scientific evidence published or produced to back up these claims.


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

There may be some kind of site edit coming up soon, as their "Guys- No Imports" link now goes to their ministry site.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> ...using the numbers I see posted here someone could clear $30k a year easy.
> thats was from the numbers on tad production etc....


Please let me know when you make you're first 30k.



MoCarp said:


> ( in my honest opinion $ not "the hobby" is the driving force against DFW)


I would love to hear your comments on the arguments that completely refuted this the last two times you brought it up.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Please let me know when you make you're first 30k.


I guess the people that keep 25 cocker spaniels and raise puppies are in it for the love of cocker spaniels only....

I am not going to have anything other than a nice display tank in my living room....if things go crazy and I fall into big $ pooting out tads you will be the 1st to know.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> before I found this board as well as other sources to learn all I could before I build a viv and kept Darts.
> 
> I came across a young kid frog room video...he seemed pre-puberty age
> ( 10-14) as his voice had not changed.
> 
> I know how much I have in My exo set up and know what he had in the shelving etc.
> 
> In my research this kid had $23-$30k at least in his frog room not counting frogs
> 
> then I came across a unboxing vid, he had just bought a huge Sean Stewart Line of frogs order, cost of that ONE order was $5k!
> 
> seems the kid was slamming away the $ for his education as well as re-investing into his frog opperation.
> 
> I took in all the info even called someone at Josh Frogs for what kind of frogs to get. I wanted to keep more than just a pair so he suggested leucs, more common PDF not as costly a good 1st frog, I looked and looked and finally found 4 banded greenfooted froglets from a good breeder. (not DFW)
> 
> supply and demand drives price and if I had a hard time finding 4 common leucs, and ended getting something more costly.
> 
> saw the same frogs sell on this board for $300 each!
> 
> 
> Flash forward....I read this thread one day and NEVER HEARD of DFW so I looked them up...what did I see? a place that sold darts WAY WAY less than anywhere I had looked . Most anyone would come to the conclusion that others who sell dart frogs are WAY butt hurt about someone pooting out frogs and driving the prices down. being in business, the old "F.U.D." seems to enter in here.
> 
> Then I made a post to point that out that and all hell broke out!
> then I dug deeper, so how much $ can someone make doing this?
> 
> using the numbers I see posted here someone could clear $30k a year easy.
> thats was from the numbers on tad production etc.
> 
> so when you think Im a deep DFW plant to subvert this thread you would be wrong
> 
> as a blanket observation (if it doesn't apply do let it bother you) DFW isn't as bad as their detractors say they are AND the DFW detractors are not as innocent in their objections ( in my honest opinion $ not "the hobby" is the driving force against DFW)


Ok, how does that story answer Epiphytes etc.'s question? If your going to answer it, just be clear and do not try to bring this thread off topic any more than you already have. I have no idea where you pulled those numbers from, but I highly doubt that one could make $30,000 selling darts. I'm willing to bet that most breeders only break even if they are lucky. If someone did make that kind of cash, they are doing it wrong and cutting some very important corners. Darts are easy to breed and some can produce a lot of offspring, but they are not easy to move at times and pairs will occasionally halt production for seemingly no reason. This hobby is not a go way to make cash. If someone is looking to make an easy buck, go breed ball pythons and get the heck out of darts.

I really don't understand how you still believe that this is a matter of competition. The most vocal members on this thread rarely sell frogs and if anything, DFW's existence will be good for any sales they might have. I know Enlightened Rouge hasn't bred his frogs in years because he just enjoys them as they are, Dendro Dave almost never sell frogs and I cannot remember a single ad from him, Zookeeper Doug sometimes sells but it does not happen often and they are usually priced modestly (to help share the hobby) and I myself have never sold a single dart since I started keeping them about three years ago. Is the motive behind our hatred for DFW financial, NO. All we care about is keeping our frog's locality data intact and making sure new hobbyists can make an informed decision before making a purchase.

John


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I guess the people that keep 25 cocker spaniels and raise puppies are in it for the love of cocker spaniels only....
> 
> I am not going to have anything other than a nice display tank in my living room....if things go crazy and I fall into big $ pooting out tads you will be the 1st to know.


Actually, that sounds more like a puppy mill to me. Either way, I'm not sure what that has to do with seeing as how that really is a completely different market with completely different demands and incentives. 

I do appreciate your response, though. Did you happen to catch my second point? You seem to really believe this is a financial witch hunt. Are there any facts that could be presented to sway that opinion? 

Also, if you poot out any tads, see a doctor first.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

And that is why you are here playing the fool. Many of us happily support joshs, neherp, dendrobati, and saurian. 
If these guys built the business the way that stated they would then none of this would be here. 
Everyone here is here because we love frogs not money.


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> And that is why you are here playing the fool. Many of us happily support joshs, neherp, dendrobati, and saurian.
> If these guys built the business the way that stated they would then none of this would be here.
> Everyone here is here because we love frogs not money.


I personally think the companies mentioned love money but they also love frogs and I do believe you can love both! None of these companies would be in business still if they were losing money long-term they would be bankrupt and we would call them hobby breeders not businesses. I am grateful people can make money doing what they love. 

If you want true information just read peer reviewed long-term research studies and don't rely on fox news, Facebook and the enquire for the news . A varied diet with a variety of nutrients makes sense as that's what they get in the wild. People are going to pick what they want to use or choose to save $1.50 then they will learn that lesson the hard way. Some people need to learn that way and others will blame someone else. 

I prefer to only stress about the things that are in my direct controll. I can give advice but not everyone will listen and my advice can always be approved upon. We are on here to be part of an enjoyable hobby not make it more stressful than it should be not everyone has to share our options and that causes continued research. In 20 years we all might look back and laugh at how we take care of out frogs today none of us know we do the best we can. All I know own is vitamins are easy and a nice culture of a bug fed on quality natural ingredients is good too.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

OK - maybe that's true of the companies listed here.

Personally - I know of a few "companies" that seem like nothing more than a tax dodge. They get their international travel fix by claiming it's related to their company.

But that's another thread. 

s


planted-tnk-guy said:


> I personally think the companies mentioned love money but they also love frogs and I do believe you can love both! None of these companies would be in business still if they were losing money long-term they would be bankrupt and we would call them hobby breeders not businesses. I am grateful people can make money doing what they love.


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> OK - maybe that's true of the companies listed here.
> 
> Personally - I know of a few "companies" that seem like nothing more than a tax dodge. They get their international travel fix by claiming it's related to their company.
> 
> But that's another thread.
> 
> s


Lol, that sounds like many companies. I buy from hobbyists not companies personally except for what I can't make myself. And even then half of that is cheap stuff re - marketed as a new product in fancy bottles.bottles . that too is another thread though.


----------



## Frog Town

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> before I found this board as well as other sources to learn all I could before I build a viv and kept Darts.
> 
> I came across a young kid frog room video...he seemed pre-puberty age
> ( 10-14) as his voice had not changed.
> 
> I know how much I have in My exo set up and know what he had in the shelving etc.
> 
> In my research this kid had $23-$30k at least in his frog room not counting frogs
> 
> then I came across a unboxing vid, he had just bought a huge Sean Stewart Line of frogs order, cost of that ONE order was $5k!
> 
> seems the kid was slamming away the $ for his education as well as re-investing into his frog opperation.


I know the exact two videos that you are talking about. I've not only watched these videos many times I've also watched many of the videos on these two people's YouTube channels.

Please explain something to me...Why is the amount of money they spent on dart frogs any of your business or concern? I wish I would have had the means and family support to have had a frog room like that when I was a kid. 

You're just mad because you can't say, "Hello everyone...This is my frog room!"


----------



## VoidDiver

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Snip


Ed said:


> IF the DFW isn't selling huge numbers of animals or products at some point there is going to be a reckoning on the sustainability as you can only break even or fail to show a profit for so long.
> Ed


Granted the difference between hobby and source of income is huge factor on profit, but unless I'm missing something, how is there really any significant cost post setup? I mean, theoretically if you reuse everything you can, you only need to regularly buy ff and springtail media (or media ingredients), excelsior, annual batch tests, and your electricity/water bill.


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



VoidDiver said:


> Snip
> 
> Granted the difference between hobby and source of income is huge factor on profit, but unless I'm missing something, how is there really any significant cost post setup? I mean, theoretically if you reuse everything you can, you only need to regularly buy ff and springtail media (or media ingredients), excelsior, annual batch tests, and your electricity/water bill.


I think here it is also going to come down to physical time needed to care for that number of animals. It very well could negate the ability at some point for these kids to hold a full time job when the time eventually comes, and they will need to rely on this business to pay day-to-day bills.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



VoidDiver said:


> Granted the difference between hobby and source of income is huge factor on profit, but unless I'm missing something, how is there really any significant cost post setup? I mean, theoretically if you reuse everything you can, you only need to regularly buy ff and springtail media (or media ingredients), excelsior, annual batch tests, and your electricity/water bill.


Actually, this is mostly true, and dravenxavier makes an excellent point. Also, I think where a lot of people's math gets skewed is in assuming that there is an inexhaustible market for frogs out there. I don't think there are many breeders out there who couldn't completely outbreed their demand if they tried, particularly with tincs.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They are also leasing warehouse space in an industrial park, correct? 

That alone will come with rent and a separate set of utility bills...


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Frog Town said:


> Why is the amount of money they spent on dart frogs any of your business or concern?


Its ok to make money....my point is "to say no money is to be made in pdfs" is a lie...



Frog Town said:


> You're just mad because you can't say, "Hello everyone...This is my frog room!"


wan't trashing the kid I salute him!

I guess the point to my posts is calling the kettle black metafore....

DFW is not perfect, but some of the DFW trashers are profiters butt hurt at price crashing, so you have laymen calling laymen pseudo scientists "you know who you are"

I would love to have a real convo with a researcher.....


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What would be the point of a conversation with a real researcher. Unless that was a market researcher that could find some way to justify the BS schemes these guys have then I could care less. 
As stated many time to you directly there is NO WAY to make a better frog within a couple generations. 

Do you understand how what people here are even talking about?

You have nothing to offer on this beside money this and money that. As John stated and many agreed upon. If it would make these fools go away then we would all be happy to give our froglets away.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Any possibility we could stop feeding this wing nut and get this thread back on track.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Its ok to make money....my point is "to say no money is to be made in pdfs" is a lie...


Nobody has said that.... You on the other hand, have tried to assert that there is a lot of money in PDFs, which is absurd. Nobody will ever get rich doing this.



> I guess the point to my posts is calling the kettle black metafore....


You had a point? A metaphor for what?



> DFW is not perfect,


At least you got that part right...



> but some of the DFW trashers are profiters butt hurt at price crashing, so you have laymen calling laymen pseudo scientists "you know who you are"


Name one, just one of these so called profiteers.....

Again, we already debunked this nonsense. You can continue to harp on it until your fingers fall off from typing it so many times, but the argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The people who have the most to lose profit wise have been completely silent on the issue.. I know having spoken to some of them personally, that DFW hasn't had any impact at all. 

Those of us who are very vocal about USA Frog, are so, because of the other issues that you consistently fail to address.

Many of us here are far closer to being scientists than the Wascher's. Many of us have and do conduct research. Unlike poor Dillion who didn't use his opportunity to go to college and seek a high education, many of us have. 

What research have you done beyond Facebook stalking people?



> I would love to have a real convo with a researcher.....


Good luck with that.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Any possibility we could stop feeding this wing nut and get this thread back on track.


Good point, obvious troll is obvious.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Any possibility we could stop feeding this wing nut and get this thread back on track.


Like X 1,000


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> I would love to have a real convo with a researcher.....


You did...on page 27 of this thread. He typed out two lengthy detailed responses to your statements, presented some pretty solid logic, and you ignored every word of it.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> You did...on page 27 of this thread. He typed out two lengthy detailed responses to your statements, presented some pretty solid logic, and you ignored every word of it.


just a heads up... everyone can have different settings on how many posts display per page. it is best to reference the post # and not the page #


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> just a heads up... everyone can have different settings on how many posts display per page. it is best to reference the post # and not the page #


Don't interrupt Tom, we were on a roll!
.....
...
..
.


 ...Sorry Tom, I thought we were due for some comic relief.

(P.S. I had to edit a "." out from between "were" and "on" twice, and uncapitalize "out" twice in this very sentence thanks to android autocorrect... and drooled on my phone once. Can you imagine what I go through in my longer posts?)


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Couple snips from their website.

"We raise them as pets before they become yours, so you can be sure they are in top condition and perfect health. While each one is unique, they grow up in social groups in case you want to put together a colorful frog family using or FROGMATCH™ program. Enjoy the site and photos, but if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask."


"...whatsoever things are *honest*, whatsoever things are* just*,
whatsoever things are *pure*, whatsoever things are lovely,
whatsoever things are of good report;
if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

Now if I remember correctly they stated that they do not raise them as pets. That they were strictly a business and raised their frogs as such.

The 2nd I find funny. They have never been honest. Who are they just to. Certainly not the hobby or anyone wanting to get into it. And the pure, hah.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> "...whatsoever things are *honest*, whatsoever things are* just*,
> whatsoever things are *pure*, whatsoever things are lovely,
> whatsoever things are of good report;
> if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
> 
> The 2nd I find funny. They have never been honest. Who are they just to. Certainly not the hobby or anyone wanting to get into it. And the pure, hah.


What is more interesting is the part they omit. And I wonder why?

Whatsoever things are *TRUE*.... 

Not that truthfulness has ever been in Rick's vocabulary.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"The worldwide experts on these frogs are Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt. They studied the wild ancestors of these frogs, and produced the treatise on the subject.

The experts say: 
1. Keeping (and breeding) tinctorius, auratus, leucomelas, in groups is just fine and simply a matter of choice!
2. The vernacular names used to tell some frogs apart including, but not limited to, cobalt, oyapok, powder blue, Regina, patricia, azureus, alanis, inferalanis, ole marie, yellow back, citronella, True Sipaliwini,.....etc., are made up, and from the viewpoint of official nomenclature, the experts call the vernacular names "utter nonsense" because varietal names have absolutely no official meaning or significance."

From their most recent ad, yes Dillon we undrstand that as it pertains to science and species locality has no meaning, too bad understanding how this relates to our hobby rather than how it can increase sales is lost on you. Shame on you and your family, hopefully putting greed ahead of doing the right thing will catch up with you all soon.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> Couple snips from their website.
> 
> "We raise them as pets before they become yours, so you can be sure they are in top condition and perfect health. While each one is unique, they grow up in social groups in case you want to put together a colorful frog family using or FROGMATCH™ program. Enjoy the site and photos, but if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask."
> 
> 
> "...whatsoever things are *honest*, whatsoever things are* just*,
> whatsoever things are *pure*, whatsoever things are lovely,
> whatsoever things are of good report;
> if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
> 
> Now if I remember correctly they stated that they do not raise them as pets. That they were strictly a business and raised their frogs as such.
> 
> The 2nd I find funny. They have never been honest. Who are they just to. Certainly not the hobby or anyone wanting to get into it. And the pure, hah.


This "we raise them as pets", seems like a version of the exotic mammal pet sales point where they hand raise them to be more sociable, with Rick trying to twist the words and context to suit his agenda IMO. How do you hand rear and scoialize 6000 frogs to people? 

...Ya I doubt you can. But Rick might say "we mean we raise them in groups so they get a along better with other frogs!"... Ok so lots of breeders raise "non pet" froglets in groups. So nothing I see makes these more sociable to other frogs, except forcing them into it longer which many more experienced and reputable people have pointed out mostly only works until they wanna breed and causes stress after that the which can lead to shorter life span.

USAdart hasn't been around long enough to claim there isn't increased stress and/or decreased lifespan caused by what many consider bad husbandry practice. 

If they are actually trying to claim more pet like by being more sociable to people, I see nothing that makes what they are doing different then others and little if any evidence it has lead to more people friendly frogs... and I really doubt 6000+ frogs get much 1 on 1 love.

What I do see is someone IMO intentionally mixing/minipulating contexts, concepts and sales points either because they have no understanding of the errors they are making in the attempt... Not good when you claim to be a frog expert. 

Or...

an attempt to intentionally mislead their potential buyer.

So Rick do you just not know wtf you are talking about? ...Or just hoping no one catches on they're intentionally being mislead?



markpulawski said:


> "The worldwide experts on these frogs are Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt. They studied the wild ancestors of these frogs, and produced the treatise on the subject.
> 
> The experts say:
> 1. Keeping (and breeding) tinctorius, auratus, leucomelas, in groups is just fine and simply a matter of choice!
> .


Well lotters specifically said responsible breeders shouldn't mix species or varieties. Now lots of people raise young frogs some in mixed morph/species groups till near sexual, not everyone is OK with the mixed morph/species groups even when young but ok... But does USAdart just mean they also raise young frogs in groups? Mixed species/morph groups til near sexually mature then separated? (They admit to mixing morphs)... And since Lotters specifically said responsible breeders shouldnt mix species or variety... What does all this mean?

Again looks like they don't know what they are talking about, *and/or* trying to BS the consumer.

Neither seems very desirable in a business or businessman... IMO


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I think it's a mixture of all of it. I think they wanted to do something different, set their mind on it, and then when it hit the fan, they doubled down and grabbed whatever they could find to justify their methods, ignored the rest, and made up a bunch of other stuff from whatever they could mentally justify as being "true". What I don't get is how much they're drinking their own Kool Aid. I get the feeling they really believe a lot of what they say. So would it really be classed as misleading when they believe it to be true? I don't know. I think more than anything it's a case of WAY too much pride at this point.


----------



## alsofaac

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



dravenxavier said:


> I think it's a mixture of all of it. I think they wanted to do something different, set their mind on it, and then when it hit the fan, they doubled down and grabbed whatever they could find to justify their methods, ignored the rest, and made up a bunch of other stuff from whatever they could mentally justify as being "true". What I don't get is how much they're drinking their own Kool Aid. I get the feeling they really believe a lot of what they say. So would it really be classed as misleading when they believe it to be true? I don't know. I think more than anything it's a case of WAY too much pride at this point.


Bottom Line: Are the frogs that USA Frog sells healthy, nonhybrid,breedable (if bought as pairs), and a worthwhile invrstment for potential breeders. The hype is just that, and obviously should be read with a grain of salt. If they have raised over 6000 frogs, they must be doing something right. I'm considering making a purchase, as they currently have a good sale going, but don't want to be ripped off. I'd appreciate some feedback about the frogs they sell. Thanks. 

Arnold Stark


----------



## InvertaHerp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



alsofaac said:


> Bottom Line: Are the frogs that USA Frog sells healthy, nonhybrid,breedable (if bought as pairs), and a worthwhile invrstment for potential breeders. The hype is just that, and obviously should be read with a grain of salt. If they have raised over 6000 frogs, they must be doing something right. I'm considering making a purchase, as they currently have a good sale going, but don't want to be ripped off. I'd appreciate some feedback about the frogs they sell. Thanks.
> 
> Arnold Stark


Nobody here will do business with you if you breed frogs from them.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



alsofaac said:


> Bottom Line: Are the frogs that USA Frog sells healthy, nonhybrid,breedable (if bought as pairs), and a worthwhile invrstment for potential breeders. The hype is just that, and obviously should be read with a grain of salt. If they have raised over 6000 frogs, they must be doing something right. I'm considering making a purchase, as they currently have a good sale going, but don't want to be ripped off. I'd appreciate some feedback about the frogs they sell. Thanks.
> 
> Arnold Stark


They could be healthy. They could not. Who knows. They don't test.
No breeder would buy from them. Most breeders are sorry they even sold to them in the past. 
Not many believe that they have produced the numbers they claim. One thing you must remember. They have only owned darts for about 2 years. Tell me how you can be smarter than a whole community in that short of a time. 
Buy at your own descretion but understand that you will most likely never sell one of the offspring honestly.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This is a hobby of trust. If you can't trust the source of the frogs, that's not going to get you many places. Especially if you are talking about making an "investment for potential breeders".

There is enough information on this thread and on their own site for you to make an educated decision about whether or not to trust them.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



alsofaac said:


> Bottom Line: Are the frogs that USA Frog sells healthy, nonhybrid,breedable (if bought as pairs), and a worthwhile invrstment for potential breeders. The hype is just that, and obviously should be read with a grain of salt. If they have raised over 6000 frogs, they must be doing something right. I'm considering making a purchase, as they currently have a good sale going, but don't want to be ripped off. I'd appreciate some feedback about the frogs they sell. Thanks.
> 
> Arnold Stark


If you have several pairs of tincs, leucs or auratus, it is pretty easy to produce a lot of frogs in a short time. All it takes is time and space. It is also not difficult to raise healthy tincs, leucs and auratus. If they had just done that, no one would care. We might even be applauding them.

The problem is if you buy "nonhybrid" frogs from them, how do you know they are not hybrids. They postulate that all tincs are the same and they have no problem interbreeding the morphs because in their view, morphs are meaningless. All they go by is phenotype. If they have a hybrid frog that looks like a cobalt, how else would they be able to sell it unless they sell it as a cobalt. Because they have shown themselves to be straight forward and honest in the past, if they sell you a frog that they say is a cobalt then you can certainly trust that both the parent frogs were cobalt right! Except that from the very start they have lied about their intent to produce hybrid frogs, have turned their back on the values that the hobby holds dear, misrepresented themselves as innovators and experts, cast dispersions blindly on others and twisted the words of respected scientists so badly that they say they mean the opposite of what the scientists actually intended. Are those the type of people you want to buy non-hybrid frogs from? The only people who openly sell hybrid frogs and try to pass them off as being more desirable?

If you use their frogs to start your breeding program, who are you going to have to lie to when you want to sell your frogs/babies?


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



alsofaac said:


> Bottom Line: Are the frogs that USA Frog sells healthy, nonhybrid,breedable (if bought as pairs), and a worthwhile invrstment for potential breeders. The hype is just that, and obviously should be read with a grain of salt. If they have raised over 6000 frogs, they must be doing something right. I'm considering making a purchase, as they currently have a good sale going, but don't want to be ripped off. I'd appreciate some feedback about the frogs they sell. Thanks.
> 
> Arnold Stark


Lots of people sell good frogs, so why buy from the business that is embroiled in the biggest dramafest fail debut of all time?

Unless you lie or stick to targeting the unimformed then IMO you will have a hard time selling tbe frogs.

Also keep in mind that even if you are personally OK with USAdart, so many others aren't that if you deal with them and sell frogs that came from them you will probably not be very popular. Every dollar they make helps them stick around and do more damage... Why help them out when so many other great sellers exist who aren't disrespecting the hobby?


Other then the price, I just see no incentive to buy from them, and even at that price I don't think they are a good value because of the points above. 

IMO starting in this hobby with their frogs and in this drama, is about one of the worst positions a new person could find themselves in.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



alsofaac said:


> Bottom Line: Are the frogs that USA Frog sells healthy,


Nobody knows. They claim so, but provide no proof. As they make claims of absolute health, the burden of proof is on them. Ask yourself, why, if their animals are healthy, have they steadfastly refused to provide any evidence at all that would show this.



> nonhybrid,breedable (if bought as pairs),


Some are, some are not. How can you trust them, if you wanted one of their non hybrids, to send you one when faced with the one thing they have proven they do well consistently, and that is lie.



> and a worthwhile invrstment for potential breeders.


Definitely not. Unless you lie about their origins, you won't be able to sell any offspring from animals produced by USA Frog. We don't want their animals and certainly don't want offspring produced by them. Purchasing frogs from them, breeding them, and then trying to sell them would only destroy any credibility you might have as a breeder.



> The hype is just that, and obviously should be read with a grain of salt. If they have raised over 6000 frogs, they must be doing something right.


It is exactly that, hype. None of the frogs they're breeding is hard to breed. They've accomplished nothing exceptional. Are they really doing something right? Or just managing to do something that is really quite easy. They're not fooling anyone.



> I'm considering making a purchase, as they currently have a good sale going, but don't want to be ripped off. I'd appreciate some feedback about the frogs they sell. Thanks.
> 
> Arnold Stark


Do they? A sale, so what. Why not purchase some respected frogs from respected breeders? So you'll save a few dollars? You get what you pay for. You might get some cheep frogs from them, but what you should be asking yourself are what are the long term implications for you? Honestly, It shouldn't be about the almighty dollar. 

Remember, you get what you pay for. Just because something is for sale, doesn't mean it is a good deal. Spend a little more for good quality animals from respected and reputable sources.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

There's a reason their inventory is stocked with thousands of frogs and other reputable breeders are always running out inventory to sell. DFW has that many frogs because no one is buying them while other breeders cannot keep frogs on the shelves.

Edit: Arnold, buying their frogs is not a worthwhile investment. They have muddied up their pure stock, which is even recommended on their own site not to do. You can't give mixed frogs away. They're highly undesired by hobbyists. Buy some frogs you like from a reputable source instead. There's a lot to choose from.


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



alsofaac said:


> Bottom Line: Are the frogs that USA Frog sells healthy, nonhybrid,breedable (if bought as pairs), and a worthwhile invrstment for potential breeders. The hype is just that, and obviously should be read with a grain of salt. If they have raised over 6000 frogs, they must be doing something right. I'm considering making a purchase, as they currently have a good sale going, but don't want to be ripped off. I'd appreciate some feedback about the frogs they sell. Thanks.
> 
> Arnold Stark


Arnold I looked at their prices, the frogs they have for sale are more than the going rate. Please do your research on sellers via Vendor Feedback, pm's to older members and local froggers. Plus the obvious on this thread.
Like said before just because they have many frogs for sale does not equate success, to me it would be a red flag.


----------



## whitethumb

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Glad to see everyone still raising the awareness.


----------



## Christopher Cunningham

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This is all pretty distressing news. I've done a lot of research on this hobby. Make sure that I was ready, but apparently not enough. I am new to all of this, admittedly, and I also admittedly purchased three beautiful little blue azeurus , which, by all appearances are in great health. They are very hardy eaters and are very bold and active. I will also say that Rick corresponded with me directly with about 50 emails as well as personal telephone calls wanting to ensure that was prepared for what I was undertaking and that I had everything that I needed to proceed with the hobby even went as far as to send me a couple of gallon bags with live magnolia leaves which they do not sell or use for their own use. After I told him that was the only thing I did not have.As I said, I am a self-professed newbie and as such I am nowhere near any of your level. When it comes to the education of these creatures. I see a lot of emotion involved in this conversation, which tells me that there is truth to it. I can believe that they could be taking part in practices that are improper. I just hope they are not doing so maliciously. Please tell me what I should look for. If anything, as I have really become attached to my little blue friends


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hi Christopher,

You are most likely going to get a pile of responses soon. I just thought I would try and start off on a positive note. Enjoy your frogs! Azureus are such a classic PDF, regardless of who you purchased them from, you will love them and so will anyone who comes to your house and sees them.

However I personally would not breed them, as it would be hard to sell the offspring.. if you are honest about their origins. You and anybody else may not be able to tell if they are azureus or a mix of other tinctorius, even if they look classic. I would also recommend keeping them in an inexpensive tank for a few months ( quarantine ) so if things go wrong you don't have to scrap an expensive tank. There are other things to consider like fecal testing or testing for rana or chytrid.. but one step at a time. 

Thanks for being so forthcoming about your new frogs. I think you got the vibe of this thread quickly. I truly wish USA/Warehouse/Top Gun whatever ..had never been born.


----------



## Christopher Cunningham

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Definitely not sticking up for them, and it is quite a bummer! I guess I'm glad I found out now because I was looking to purchase six dwarf COBOLT's from them, but I will now be looking for a more reputable dealer/breeder To acquire them from. I won't be ready for them for a couple of months anyway. In my 36 x 18 x 36. I still find it unnerving that I may have been misled. Good thing I'm not breeding them. I have the blues in a 18 x 24 x 18 ET Sri Lanka enclosure. Will post some pictures, possibly tomorrow I have to have my caregiver take some for me


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sounds good. Not sure where Mattoon is but there are a lot of PDF keepers in the Chicago area if you keep an eye out or as a start : 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/midwest/205649-chicagoland-froggers-social.html
Besides possibly sourcing someone more local to buy from .. it is so helpful to see other peoples setups in person especially when first starting out.


----------



## Christopher Cunningham

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have done a tone of research on different species, habitats, diet needs, atmospheric needs, i.e., humidity, temperature types of water and the such. I should have done more research on who I was buying from. I feel bad because I don't want to attack them, because aside from this knowledge. It was a pleasant experience. It's unfortunate because I'm not a dumb person, and I noticed while on their website. The very first time I found it that it was quite odd how they were renaming these frogs and calling them something else because the reason he did not sound for lack of better term, sound LOL I should have realized something was up because why would you take the recognizable names of these sought after amphibians? I did not understand the marketing strategy behind that but I did not look any further. Either. The best I can do about looking at setups is through pictures, because I am a quadriplegic, paralyzed from the neck down, which makes travel difficult. I do however make my way to Chicago a couple times each summer and I plan on attending a couple of conventions there this summer


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well then Christopher you got me on that one. No worries, as you have already discovered there are so many good sources of info. I am sure this board will help in anyway it can


----------



## dravenxavier

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So long as you don't breed them (or cull any eggs you do find), I'm sure you'll enjoy your frogs just as well as any others. And by not bringing up any offspring from these frogs, you will be serving as a very important role model in the proper, responsible approach to keeping these animals.

Thank you for your honesty, and in your willingness to be open to information. Too many in your situation would become defensive over their situation.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I came across a good read today and I feel that it may bring to light why we care so much about the posterity of pure lines. 
Earth faces sixth ‘great extinction’ with 41% of amphibians set to go the way of the dodo | Environment | The Guardian


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The mutts are back and re-branded, of course.

Wascher Franken Frog Express



usafrog website said:


> What is an AMERICAN™ pet frog?
> 
> Aside from being an extraordinary animal with superior genetics and thoroughbred parent lineages generally, AMERICAN™ pet frogs are the offspring of pure bred, top quality, frog parents that differ in phenotype (appearance). (U.S. Dart Frog is the sole producer of AMERICAN™ brand frogs, and their extensive phenotype data of over 8,000 frogs and tadpoles currently in inventory is unmatched anywhere. They know more about AMERICAN™ frogs than anyone.)


----------



## Dale D

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

8000 frogs now.
You would think if their frogs were selling so well the number in stock should be going down or at least staying about the same. Not increasing.

I like how they make up their own names (American, Top Gun, etc) for frogs and then go about advertizing how they are the worlds authority on that name of frog.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> The mutts are back and re-branded, of course.
> 
> Wascher Franken Frog Express


Wow. They trademarked "American".



That Ridiculous Site said:


> Are AMERICAN™ frogs “crossbreeds”?
> 
> Absolutely NOT! The experts properly define "Crossbreeding" in their treatise. Crossbreeding is the breeding of two different species. American™ frogs are 100% Tinctorius by species. An AMERICAN frog cannot properly be described or called a "crossbreed” because, similar to humans, each and every AMERICAN™ pet frog is 100% single species–Tinctorius. Their parents are 100% Tinctorius and grandparents are too, etc.
> 
> This is best illustrated by comparison to our own identity as humans. As a species, people are "**** Sapiens". As **** sapiens (human species), people are a "polymorphic" species–meaning we come in many different colors and appearances. Similarly, as a species, AMERICAN™ pet frogs are "Tinctorius" and they too come in many different colors and appearances. Parents of the same species that give birth to offspring of their own species, human or frog as the case may be, including biracial (mixed race) humans, cannot properly, lovingly, or ethically be called "crossbreeds", ever.


I honestly cannot believe they are defending crossbreeding with the race card. That is absolutely despicable. How sleezy to you have to be to use the civil rights movement to leverage your dishonest cash grab. 



That Ridiculous Site said:


> AMERICAN™ frogs are definitely NOT hybrids. Here again, the undisputed experts properly define "hybrid" as an inability to reproduce (i.e., have offspring).


Lie #2463. I just looked "hybrid" up in 4 dictionaries. Only one of them even mentioned sterility, and it was only to point out that hybrids are not necessarily sterile. 

Dumb or evil, you decide.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



InvertaHerp said:


> Nobody here will do business with you if you breed frogs from them.


Not so fast


Someone buys frogs from them, Till a frog has papers, you can't tell, it not like someone would lie  , 

so in effect the "hobby" is making DFW line breeders go underground and pollute what you were trying to do.....way to go guys...


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

All we can do is hope that people we buy from are better than that. 
Take you for example. No one that follows this thread would buy from you. You have promoted dfw to much. Your choice to sell here would be to create a new user handle, build up a name for yourself and then try to sell. Besides that this is a small hobby. Everyone is connected for the most part. If i don't know the person then chances are someone i do know does. 
Thanks for stopping by for your weekly troll, and as always we thank you for your lack of any real input to the forum.


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Not so fast
> 
> 
> Someone buys frogs from them, Till a frog has papers, you can't tell, it not like someone would lie  ,
> 
> so in effect the "hobby" is making DFW line breeders go underground and pollute what you were trying to do.....way to go guys...




You have a very negative view of hte people in this hobby, and I totally fail to understand your continued support of this ridiculous company.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Someone buys frogs from them, Till a frog has papers, you can't tell, it not like someone would lie  ,


Oh the irony.....

That is exactly what USA Frog has evidenced they have absolutely no problem doing, constantly, repeatedly, and unapologetically. Zero credibility.

This is why this hobby constantly harps on and pounds the drum of "Buy from those you trust"

Sure, anyone can lie, but why buy from a company that we KNOW does?



> so in effect the "hobby" is making DFW line breeders go underground and pollute what you were trying to do.....way to go guys...


Unlikely. But nice try at some fearmongering.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Quote:
Originally Posted by That Ridiculous Site
AMERICAN™ frogs are definitely NOT hybrids. Here again, the undisputed experts properly define "hybrid" as an inability to reproduce (i.e., have offspring).

Very interesting since Mendel's original experiments produced pea plants (all the same species) that were "hybrids" for specific traits. So by Mendel's definition(I am thinking he would be an undisputed expert) the AMERICAN™ frogs are absolutely 100% hybrids for at least color pattern.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> Not so fast
> 
> 
> Someone buys frogs from them, Till a frog has papers, you can't tell, it not like someone would lie  ,
> 
> so in effect the "hobby" is making DFW line breeders go underground and pollute what you were trying to do.....way to go guys...


We aren't making them go underground. If a person can't restrain themselves from selling frogs that are from an unpopular source or worse feels a need to lie about their origins that is on them. Just like USAdart's bears the responibility for their behavior and marketing practices, others who follow in their footsteps will too. It is a small hobby, secrets don't keep long or well around here, and things work themselves out one way or another.

While some may feel the need to hide things or misrepresent themselves or their animals, the blame and accountability is on them and USAdart. Good chance these kinda people would have found some other excuse to screw up and/or screw others. To say otherwise is like saying its everyone's fault who doesn't wanna get robbed that more muggers don't turn themselves in... and how dare people demand they be punished!?! ...Ya its our fault, not theirs 

I think most of us would rather people just hold and enjoy their USAdart frogs rather then perpetuate them in the hobby, but personally I'm not going to tell Christopher or anyone else they can't attempt to sell them. Also while we should encourage everyone to do their research and act in a responsible and ethical manner if they find themselves in a difficult position, I think we have to be real careful about punishing the victims.

Unless you are a forum rat it is still pretty easy for a person just getting into the hobby to get a viv setup, get frogs and enough knowledge to have a reasonable chance to do well before they become experts on the great USAdart cluster fudge of 2013-present. Not everyone has the innate BS alarm that should get set off by the sleaze or immediately catch on to just how important trusted sources are in this hobby. 

Sadly a lot of what USAdart has done would just be par for the course in the outside world and many are used to that lower standard even if not OK with it. Personally that is half the reason I'm involved in this. I don't want low standards to become the accepted norm. I think it is amazing how few of the people who have stuck up for USAdart actually say they are doing great. The most common argument still just seems to be we are making to big a deal of what they did wrong. To which I ask, "Why are your standards so low?" ...Don't think I've gotten a good answer yet.

I won't be first in line to buy them, but as long as they represent the frog's origins honestly and don't completely disrespect the community while using sleazy marketing and BS pseudoscience to sell their frogs... I won't point my torch and pitchfork towards them. 

Besides their is no crime in just keeping dart frogs as pets and not breeding them. Sure its fun, but it can also get to be a real hassle if a lot of frogs are breeding at once, you are working full time/have school and trying to have a life. Those things can also effect the standard of care and quality of animals produced even if you are managing to keep most of them alive long enough to sell. 

I don't think there is a need for everyone with azureus to breed them, but it's hard for me to discourage them since I got enjoyment and experience out of it in my first years. Perhaps the better tactic is to make sure they are better prepared for the realities of rearing and selling offspring (especially of super common types) and producing quality over quantity.

Anyways...

Honestly Mo, I don't get your arguments. They seem to be "we created this mess, by having standards and ethics... how dare us speak ill of USAdart!?" ...Maybe I've got it wrong, but in that case what exactly is your position, because I'm confused? I don't think chiming in with an off hand comment or jab at the community is winning you any friends either, so you may wanna be more clear on your intent if you don't wanna alienate everyone and/or want them to take you seriously.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Honestly Mo, I don't get your arguments. They seem to be "we created this mess, by having standards and ethics... how dare us speak ill of USAdart!?" ...Maybe I've got it wrong, but in that case what exactly is your position, because I'm confused? I don't think chiming in with an off hand comment or jab at the community is winning you any friends either, so you may wanna be more clear on your intent if you don't wanna alienate everyone and/or want them to take you seriously.



I think the fact that Mo will jump in every now and then with a trollish jab or some cryptic attempt to muddy the waters, but absolutely refuses to engage in any real discussion on the issue speaks volumes as to his position. 

BTW, Christopher Cunningham, welcome to the hobby! Enjoy the heck out of those frogs. There's nothing wrong with any healthy frog (hybrid or not) in itself. I would just ask that you be careful with any offspring. People won't typically boycott you for the frogs your keeping, but they will boycott you if you're dishonest, or help promote businesses that are detrimental to the hobby. In your spare time you may want to peruse some of the how-to threads in the beginners section. You'll be an expert in no time. Also, most people here will happily respond to any PMs if you need specific help. See ya' around.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> BTW, Christopher Cunningham, welcome to the hobby! Enjoy the heck out of those frogs. There's nothing wrong with any healthy frog (hybrid or not) in itself. I would just ask that you be careful with any offspring. People won't typically boycott you for the frogs your keeping, but they will boycott you if you're dishonest, or help promote businesses that are detrimental to the hobby. In your spare time you may want to peruse some of the how-to threads in the beginners section. You'll be an expert in no time. Also, most people here will happily respond to any PMs if you need specific help. See ya' around.


Oh ya I got so enthralled with my own rambling BS that I forgot to welcome you Chris. So Welcome! ...and what he said 

Oh and basically being all forthcoming and honest like you were was awesome. That's the way to do this hobby, and don't feel to bad about stepping on the USAdart landmine. Its a big one, ruining many a frogger's day. Sadly we'll probably be dealing with the fallout for years. Hopefully those who survive will come out better/wiser battle hardened froggers who endure for years. *God I love the smell of fruit flies in the morning!!!!*


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> The mutts are back and re-branded, of course.
> 
> Wascher Franken Frog Express



*"What species are they?

AMERICAN pet frogs are 100% PURE TINCTORIUS (species). The undisputed worldwide experts say if you are going to breed for colors and patterns as we do, then it is a good idea to stay within species, and this we do."*

Ah more of (IMO) Rick manipulating the source material to suit his agenda. Just completely leaving out that pesky specific statement about responsible breeders not mixing species *OR varieties.* 

...Yes just omitting the parts you don't like is so much easier then having to twist different statements with different contexts together, inventing a conclusion and then having to deal with the photographic evidence you posted that very clearly reveals all the hoops you had to jump through to come up with that twisted agenda suiting conclusion. Very clever Rick 

Have you ever tried repainting the Mona Lisa or other famous paintings all in BS brown? ...probably a market for that too.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> There is no argument Dave.
> 
> He`s a troll..no more..no less.
> 
> Just a simple loser who has nothing better to do.
> Ignore him and he`ll just fade away, perhaps he`ll find his way back to the other forums he does the same thing to.


Meh might be right. I read that stuff and I have flash backs of playing flight sims in the PC as a kid... "Pull up!" ..."Pull up! (To late)... but just like then, I keep hoping till the bitter end


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So, they now have mixed morph frogs branded "denim" and "sunkist". I believe that they've used both of these names in the past to market pure morphs.

Nah, this won't cause any confusion ...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> So, they now have mixed morph frogs branded "denim" and "sunkist". I believe that they've used both of these names in the past to market pure morphs.
> 
> Nah, this won't cause any confusion ...


Seem's like only yesterday doesn't it


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> So, they now have mixed morph frogs branded "denim" and "sunkist". I believe that they've used both of these names in the past to market pure morphs.
> 
> Nah, this won't cause any confusion ...





Enlightened Rogue said:


> Seem's like only yesterday doesn't it


...And they already have a record of getting tripped up by their own BS.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> So, they now have mixed morph frogs branded "denim" and "sunkist". I believe that they've used both of these names in the past to market pure morphs.
> 
> Nah, this won't cause any confusion ...


Or were the frogs that they previously marketed as Denim and Sunkist, really mixed morph hybrid frogs all along? Knowing what we know about USA Frog,not isn't much of a stretch,


----------



## jaybugg13

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

As a software engineer, still appalled by the website. They look like the shadiest 1990's .com ever.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Can you elaborate on how $ is causing the hate please? That makes as much sense as Rick does at the moment. I would like to try to understand what you mean. Are you saying people are jealous by DFW low prices due to the bottleneck of tincs/auratus they produced and cant get rid of? Do you mean to say that the people involved in this thread are jealous of Ricks cash flow from this thriving business? Or are you just reaching for any kind of defensive statement you can think of? Reminds me of someone else...


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just want to pop in real quick here and apologize to everyone on this thread... There was a blatant violation of the user agreement that I missed a couple days ago. It has been removed and will be dealt with.

The thread will be opened back up once I get a chance to sift through things a bit better. 

In the meantime, have a nice night.


----------



## JPccusa

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Let me remind you that the moderation team cannot be at all places at all times. We rely on *EVERYONE* to help us do our voluntary work here on DB. 
If you see a violation of the User Agreement, please help us out by reporting the post so we can address the problem.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Rick has apparently rolled out Vic Ruutan to go on the defensive again with a new wall of text trying to defend what USA Frog does by completely twisting everything backwards. Good for a laugh. No point in refuting any of this really, as we have previously dissected this nonsense and proven it all false.

Thanks for the late Solstice gift Rick... 



Vic Ruutan... said:


> This is a funny one really. There are two (2) schools of thought on these frogs. There is the majority expert view of Lotters et al., which we advance, and there is the minority view some in the dart frog hobby advance. The majority view has the official proof and a lot of it, while the minority view has the most vocal individuals that prefer personal attacks to truth. This fact is not surprising. Having had the pleasure to work with many top scientists in the field of chemistry and sophisticated medical technologies for over two decades, the most revered and respected scientists in any field were those with a soft voice and the boat load of proof. The lesser scientists squawked a lot. The same holds true here, and while these frogs are just pets far from "science" per se, the minorty view lacking proof prefers personal attacks of young men who raise and sell pet frogs.
> 
> Lotters and the gang present official genetic studies, scientific reviews from a ton of sources, and have basically compiled and presented the overwhelming weight of proofs for how these frogs should be treated and officially classified as living creatures world over. Their knowledge base partially comprises the majority view, with the remainder filled in by commn sense, and data. Then there is the minority hobby view, albeit driven by a few in pursuit of their own agenda and desire to keep things controlled for profit, security, or both.
> 
> Still, this all boils down to one issue: Species!
> 
> The official nomenclature (i.e., official terms) for the official taxonomy (official classification system of living things), officially classifying these frogs as living creatures calls their genus Dendrobates. Underneath the genus is species, and only species.
> 
> Dendrobates frogs, including ALL, each and every, official record worldwide on the subject, including any and all official bodies of science and every real scieintist who knows about these frogs everywhere, of course including the experts Lotters et al., ALL, without exception or equivocation, unanimously say Dendrobate dart frogs are officially categorized by species alone and NOTHING MORE. The OFFICIAL species are: Tinctorius, Auratus, Leucomelas, Truncatus and one other species believed to be extinct.
> 
> The minority hobby view claims the official classification includes the hobby names such as "powder grey" for a powder grey legged frog, and "cobalt" named for a frog with dark cobalt blue legs, "Bumblebee" for a Leucomerlas colored black and yellow like a bumblebee, and "Costa Rican green & black" for frogs that are green & black and found in Costa Rica. Yes, as you might expect the hobby names are given names, i.e., names given to the frogs by the person first importing them. Those names do not rise to the level of species, and never should. Anyone advocating the hobby names are official should know the experts call this viewpoint "utter nonsense!" (See for yourself.)
> 
> 
> See, the Frog Facts section for a complete summary.
> 
> So, we refused to "go along" and adopt the hobby name convention and stayed true to the offical record and the experts, and this is the root of the dislike for us. In short, we have not complied with the hobby viewpoint lacking proof and science.
> 
> For completeness, some say the genetic differences attributable to appearance differences between frogs mean there is a species difference too. Again, Lotters and the gang thought of this too and and explain it away many times in their treatise. Genetics attributable to appearance differences between frogs that look different does NOT determine species no matter how desirous the individual, for the same reason each living person today would also be their own species on the same nonsense theory, because we all look different.
> 
> Of course, there are a ton of other instances where the minority hobby viewpoint disagrees with the experts including, but not limited to, where:
> (i) The experts say these frogs are "polymorphic" within their species, meaning there are many colors and patterns and they interbreed naturally in the wild. The minority hobby disagrees, poses their own definition for polymorphism, and seeks to change the real meaning. What has always been curious to us is why? Why not accept the truth and move on. It is easier.
> 
> (ii) The experts say communal groups of different colored frogs are totally okay, provided there is enough space, frog temperament is compatible, and the breeder should stay within species. The minority hobby disagrees again and seeks to forbid you from raising YOUR frogs in YOUR house in same species groups of compatible frogs. Why? So you have to buy and build more enclosures!
> 
> (iii)...so much more...that is just too exhausting to write down here.
> 
> Overall, the minority viewpoint of the hobby disagrees with the experts, and demands conformance to the unsubstantiated hobby views and anyone who is against their agenda is defamed. This is best evidenced by the hobby desire to define a "U.S. Dart Frog Hobby" separate from a "European Dart Frog Hobby" (their words). Lest we forget, these are frogs bred as pets for kids and adults. The frogs are destined to live inside a glass box, never to re-enter the wild, and the frogs are the same by species everywhere on the planet. This is not the European Union versus the United States in frog wars. The experts, Lotters et al., totally acknowledged and covered the captive bred pet frog scenario, and they advised "stay within species" and make sure the frogs are compatible. This we do in our breeding, rearing, and FROGMATCH proprietary groupings. Sure, we are the only company that does things this most labor intensive way, most thorough as to care, but we have the most frogs and each one is TOP GUN™ in quality, health, beauty, and strength!
> 
> For the consumer, as the bashers work to take sales from us using lies, nonsense, and a deceptive agenda, simply because we agree with the world experts and their scientific views, we are moved to keep our prices lowest in the market to encourage new business. Thus, the bashers are absolutely directly responsible for our lost sales as they intend, as per their own words and posts, and keeping our prices as low as they are means lost revenue is the result. For now, we simply adjust our business model to our lowest price structure and keep going. (By the way: Did you know one of the leading moderators for the most outspoken dart frog hobby chat board is a top manager of one of our top competitors? Posts declaring our frogs are better than theirs have been removed from the chat boards. Also, did you know one of the old timer dart frog hobbyists who has been around a long time has/had for many years passed-off as "his own line" the frogs bred and raised by someone else. That's the not so funny part–some in the hobby have deceive(d) their own followers. Maybe it will turn around one day and the truth will be most desired. We can only hope.
> 
> You may wish to read our Customer Reviews for what people who actually deal with us have to say.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"The minority hobby disagrees again and seeks to forbid you from raising YOUR frogs in YOUR house in same species groups of compatible frogs. Why? So you have to buy and build more enclosures!"

Ah, it's an enclosure racket! Those enclosure barons are behind it all!

Black is white, up is down, right is wrong. Why not except that and move on? It's easier. At least there's nothing here about how they produced hybrids that aren't hybrids and, unlike hybrids, can reproduce more hybrids. That circular logic funnel always makes me a bit car-sick.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Rite?

I like how Rick lacks the Testicular a fortitude to outright libel the actual moderator and Frog Business he is accusing.

Of course we know exactly who he is talking about and just how laughable his accusations are, but again, they're targeting new, uninformed customers, in the hope that these people might believe their lies.

It's all some vast conspiracy theory....


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Rick has apparently rolled out Vic Ruutan to go on the defensive again with a new wall of text trying to defend what USA Frog does by completely twisting everything backwards. Good for a laugh. No point in refuting any of this really, as we have previously dissected this nonsense and proven it all false.
> 
> Thanks for the late Solstice gift Rick...


Well I'm going to try because the simple fact and first proof of refutation, is that Rick ignores a *key part* of the very specific statement by Lotters:

*"*...Responsible breeders won't mix species OR VARIETIES!*"* *<--- That part!*

Instead he trys to twist the first part of it into the statements with a completely different context regarding scientific nomenclature, ignoring the "OR VARIETY" part to create the *BS bastard conclusion...*"Personal choice".    Which is just... 

It is such a *blatant manipulation of the facts and "the majority view", that in my opinion it constitutes an OUT RIGHT LIE.*

*But if you want a good 2nd argument that between the two camps we really do have the moral high ground, here it is...*

*We can't legally stop anyone who is determined to create a designer frog from doing it, but if the designer frogs corrupt our captive population, we may eventually loose all possibility of having our "real" frogs, period... short of smuggling new stock in for many of them. 

What we are doing always allows what they want to be possible. 

What they want risks the possibility of destroying what have, and any future possibility to get what we want... legally.

Does that sound fair? ...moral? ...or ethical? * 

* ...Well Rick, does it?*

So when you account for Rick warping and twisting separate statements with separate contexts into his own personal truth that he preaches to others as the gospel truth (and it isn't), then consider what they do can actually destroy the possibility of us ever getting what we want, when what we do protects the possibility of them doing what what they want, the end result is... 
* THEY'RE JUST IN THE WRONG.*

*No matter how many different versions of his BS manipulation of the facts he spews... It is still JUST BS. It is BOTH immoral BS, and unethical BS, In my opinion (which is supported by the actual facts, and Rick's prior antics)*.


----------



## Spaff

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Rite?
> 
> I like how Rick lacks the Testicular a fortitude to outright libel the actual moderator and Frog Business he is accusing.
> 
> Of course we know exactly who he is talking about and just how laughable his accusations are, but again, they're targeting new, uninformed customers, in the hope that these people might believe their lies.
> 
> It's all some vast conspiracy theory....


Also, to set the record straight, no current moderator is in any way affiliated with any commercial PDF venture besides being potential customers from time to time. While it's true that my name is shared with the perceived target of Rick's rant, I have never corresponded with the good folks at that other company (though you definitely should patronize them before DFW), and this is simply one more untruth they are pushing.


----------



## Nick_

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I as well as every respectable hobbyist I know of would only keep a mixed tank if they were comfortable with euthanasia on the offspring to preserve localities that will likey not exist in 50-75 years on the optimistic a side. Alternatively keeping strict regiment over The documentation and labeling of offspring and lineage could prevent a mess. The weakness I see here is that life often intervenes and oathes/promises/virtues are breached in some forms and most just keep chugging along with narrow agendas. A couple breaches down the road and what was once a beautiful natural occurance that took millions of miracles to shape is muddied into a warped puddle of genes far removed from the ideology and results of line continuation. The passionate consistance of dedicated hobbyists, breeders, and like minded will be the stewards of these awesome little frogs. 

I have read through and can appreciate many of the points made this far., and as Dave illicits, those that have the will to blend will regaurdless of motivation. It is up to the communities that makeup the hobby to preserve what we can, it seems to me that is the best we can do rather than fighting over points and manipulating syntax errors. That's my $0.03


----------



## jdooley195

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*HAHAHAHAHAHA!*


"This is best evidenced by the hobby desire to define a "U.S. Dart Frog Hobby" separate from a "European Dart Frog Hobby" (their words). Lest we forget, these are frogs bred as pets for kids and adults. The frogs are destined to live inside a glass box, never to re-enter the wild, and the frogs are the same by species everywhere on the planet. This is not the European Union versus the United States in frog wars."
-USA Frog.


"This is why we created the "American" line of frogs...to completely contradict our own statements"
-Me; pretending I'm them.

Freakin' wow!


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Spaff said:


> Also, to set the record straight, no current moderator is in any way affiliated with any commercial PDF venture besides being potential customers from time to time. While it's true that my name is shared with the perceived target of Rick's rant, I have never corresponded with the good folks at that other company (though you definitely should patronize them before DFW), and this is simply one more untruth they are pushing.


Almost all of Rick's newest manifesto is him twisting the facts, misreprenting the facts, claiming half truths are the whole truth, claiming consipriacies where none exist, or blowing the actions of a few out of proportion and laying the blame on the entire community that he considers an enemy to his bottom line, and a threat to his ego. 

So basically it's just Rick being Rick...again. 

It would almost be funny or even cute, if he wasn't actually hurting people and the hobby... Oh but it is pathetic either way. Seriously he isn't even that good of a liar, for a lawyer and supposedly some genius scientist. So much evidence of deception, back peddling, and general BS; it isn't even a challenge to refute except I suck at texting on my phone... but it is still fun to do, and to watch him get befuddled by his own poorly constructed web of BS... That is priceless 
---------------------------------------------------------

A few more thoughts....

He is claiming to be the majority when almost no one across any forum will stand up for them, and those who do fail to address many of the most important issues or put forth a rational counter arguement that isn't easily shot full of holes, or downed completely.

He makes the claim of being in the majority only after twisting the words of his sources to suit his agenda, while wrongly accusing us of if doing the same... which by the way we proved with photographic evidence he posted himself. So his claim is based on a deceptive and fualty premise.

The entire manifesto amounts in my opinion to a giant attempt at deception, that even after we consider the few truths and many half truths, should probably be considered in totality as as functionally equivalent to one big out right lie.

You know like that one they told about not mixing species or varieties, then put mixed morph frogs up for sale, and had to back peddle in the face of community outrage so hard that claiming it wasn't a lie... just a valid business practice not to reveal their plans was the best justification for it they could come up with. 

I'm sorry Rick but saying you won't do something even to keep it a secret, then doing it is a lie. Keeping your mouth shut is closer to just keeping a secret. At best you might be able to claim it was a lie of omission... but still a lie in my opinion, hell it is right there in the phrasing.

In the end this just seems to be evidence that we are hurting their business (good!), and Rick is willing to stoop to almost any amount of deception and manipulation to make a buck and/or protect his ego.

In my opinion buying frogs from him, would be like paying a pathological egomaniacal liar to lie to you, and make himself out to be your savoir. 

That really worth a buck, disrespecting a community of people, the animals they love and the possible destruction of a hobby, so that Rick can remake it in his own image? 

...I think not

Thanks for the newest laugh Rick


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Nick_ said:


> I have read through and can appreciate many of the points made this far., and as Dave illicits, those that have the will to blend will regaurdless of motivation. It is up to the communities that makeup the hobby to preserve what we can, it seems to me that is the best we can do rather than fighting over points and manipulating syntax errors. That's my $0.03


I agree with most of that, but when the points are valid, and there are omissions and manipulations of facts, and the contexts of those facts in an attempt to decieve... Very much worth a fight.

Truth is beauty, happy holidays...
Dave


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Does anyone have a way of contacting Lotters or the other authors of the book? I feel like they would like to know how their words are being manipulated to prey on the uninformed for profit.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> Does anyone have a way of contacting Lotters or the other authors of the book? I feel like they would like to know how their words are being manipulated to prey on the uninformed for profit.


Oh man, I'd love to see how Rick would handle Lotters crushing his interpretation. We could charge admission, and donate the money to conservation


----------



## easternversant

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> Does anyone have a way of contacting Lotters or the other authors of the book? I feel like they would like to know how their words are being manipulated to prey on the uninformed for profit.


Stefan has known about their usage of his work from a very early stage of this company's existence. I'm under the impression that he thinks it just isn't worth his time and trouble, since it might involve lawyers.


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



easternversant said:


> Stefan has known about their usage of his work from a very early stage of this company's existence. I'm under the impression that he thinks it just isn't worth his time and trouble, since it might involve lawyers.


I completely understand the fear of getting involved in legal action.

I feel like he could post a letter online correcting their misinterpretations of his own words which we could point people towards. There's no reason to have to get involved with Rick directly.


----------



## Dendrobati

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Their hybrid frogs are now for sale on King Snake....


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendrobati said:


> Their hybrid frogs are now for sale on King Snake....


That is nothing new. They have been there a few times over the past 6 months. There have also been sellers that had their frogs pushing them on that site. KingSnake is a joke. I would never buy anything off of that site.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> Can you elaborate on how $ is causing the hate please? That makes as much sense as Rick does at the moment. I would like to try to understand what you mean. Are you saying people are jealous by DFW low prices due to the bottleneck of tincs/auratus they produced and cant get rid of? Do you mean to say that the people involved in this thread are jealous of Ricks cash flow from this thriving business? Or are you just reaching for any kind of defensive statement you can think of? Reminds me of someone else...


Mocarp, this was for you before the thread got locked. Now that it is open again can you please explain what you mean?


----------



## ivas

Polymorphism means that there are two or more distinct phenotypes in ONE population. Rick is using this term wrong, because our captive frogs come from DIFFERENT populations.

Polytypism means that distinct populations that share similar traits (ie, evolutionary significant subunits, morphs, subspecies). I think this is the term that Rick meant to use. And despite what Vic Ruutaan says, real taxonomists DO consider these lower classifications. I've never talked to a real biologist who considers a species name the end-all-and-be-all. 

I don't pretend to be a lawyer. It's a slap in my face for someone who does not know the basic jargon of population biology and evolutionary ecology to go around pretending to be a biologist.

Morons!


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ivas said:


> Polytypism means that distinct populations that share similar traits (ie, evolutionary significant subunits, morphs, subspecies).



I'm not gonna lie, I've taken a load of biology, ecology, and evolution classes, and have never used this term. Not defending Rick by *any* means, but this is not a standard term amongst most people.


----------



## easternversant

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ivas said:


> Polymorphism means that there are two or more distinct phenotypes in ONE population. Rick is using this term wrong, because our captive frogs come from DIFFERENT populations.
> 
> Polytypism means that distinct populations that share similar traits (ie, evolutionary significant subunits, morphs, subspecies). I think this is the term that Rick meant to use. And despite what Vic Ruutaan says, real taxonomists DO consider these lower classifications. I've never talked to a real biologist who considers a species name the end-all-and-be-all.
> 
> I don't pretend to be a lawyer. It's a slap in my face for someone who does not know the basic jargon of population biology and evolutionary ecology to go around pretending to be a biologist.
> 
> Morons!





TarantulaGuy said:


> I'm not gonna lie, I've taken a load of biology, ecology, and evolution classes, and have never used this term. Not defending Rick by *any* means, but this is not a standard term amongst most people.


Well in your defense (and I can't believe I'm saying this) Rick's as well, even the peer-reviewed poison frog literature was frequently using polymorphism instead of polytypism until recently. It was so bad that someone brought it up in a special note in a journal issue devoted to dendrobatids.


----------



## MoCarp

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> Mocarp, this was for you before the thread got locked. Now that it is open again can you please explain what you mean?


did not know there was a "Bottle Neck" for tincs....so even more so "$" is the primary reason

if thats the case, 

if I had been making coin "pre DFW" then stuck with "pure tincs" while DFW is pooting out there stock I would be miffy as well.


I am sure some are honestly all about the morph sustainability


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> did not know there was a "Bottle Neck" for tincs....so even more so "$" is the primary reason
> 
> if thats the case,
> 
> if I had been making coin "pre DFW" then stuck with "pure tincs" while DFW is pooting out there stock I would be miffy as well.
> 
> 
> I am sure some are honestly all about the morph sustainability


Yet again you failed to read what was being said. Jay is stating that DFW has the bottleneck of stock they can't move. Not those of us that have a few types and breed them true. The only one crying "made us lose money" is Rick.
<Good work all>
90% of the people here do not even come close to breaking even on a yearly average. I have yet to make a dime on my frogs and here I am saying that these guys are wrong in all that they do.
The fiscal effect that these guys have on the major players have yet to even become a concern. You can come i here every day and say money money money all you want but that will get you know where.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



MoCarp said:


> did not know there was a "Bottle Neck" for tincs....so even more so "$" is the primary reason


Of course you didn't, but that is not surprising.

And no, this doesn't mean money is a reason. Really, you've continually failed to back up that assertion and ignored all the very real concerns the hobby has about USA Frog.



> I am sure some are honestly all about the morph sustainability


Yes, we are, glad to see you're finally willing to admit this fact.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> That is nothing new. They have been there a few times over the past 6 months. There have also been sellers that had their frogs pushing them on that site. KingSnake is a joke. I would never buy anything off of that site.


Rick's version of the definition for "hybrid" is contradicted by Merriam Webster's dictionary. I reported the ads for being misleading, pointed out some of the other issues too. I suggest others do the same.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just out of curiosity, does anybody know what they were talking about in reference to "U.S. Dart Frog Hobby vs. European Dart Frog Hobby"? I've been following this debacle since day one and I can't figure out what the hell he is referring to.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Just out of curiosity, does anybody know what they were talking about in reference to "U.S. Dart Frog Hobby vs. European Dart Frog Hobby"? I've been following this debacle since day one and I can't figure out what the hell he is referring to.


I think I remember something to do with mixing frogs. It was brought up that it is not uncommon to see mixed tanks in Europe. Not so much tincs with other tinc morphs, but pumilio w/auratus, thumbs w/tincs, etc. in larger tanks. 

One person responded, "that's a difference between the US and the European hobby. Mixing is more accepted in Europe."

I don't remember if it was in a thread pertaining to them, but maybe they have taken this statement made by one random hobbiest, to speak for the entire hobby worldwide.

More likely it is just a marketing scheme. Lotters wrote the book that they consider the dart frog bible, he is European, their misinterpretation of Lotters goes against what the hobbiests in the US think/say, so they are aligning themselves with Europe(even though they are going against what Lotters says). Sort of like companies align themselves with German engineering, Dutch craftsmanship, Japanese technology, etc. 
Never mind that we have researchers on this side of the Atlantic like Evan Twoomey, Jason Brown, Justin Yeager, Mark Pepper, and many others who contribute to the U.S. hobby who are just as knowledgable as Lotters. They just haven't written/edited a large book.

The European hobbiests that I see on this board certainly don't seem to be at odds with those in the US or vice versa.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

A new low ... they've just tossed all of their frog listings together under "juvenile frogs". No attempt whatsoever to differentiate between pure morphs and their mutts. They're simply listing their mixed morph frogs as "new varieties". 

Apparently, there is no "low" that's "too low" for for these folks ... I guess with 8000 (their current claim) frogs to unload they'll do whatever it takes to dump a few frogs and scratch up a few bucks from the unsuspecting. 

Speaking of 8000 frogs, what kind of knucklehead keeps breeding and producing frogs with that kind of inventory on hand? I think it will be their massive inventory (if it's what they claim) that will be their eventually undoing.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> A new low ... they've just tossed all of their frog listings together under "juvenile frogs". No attempt whatsoever to differentiate between pure morphs and their mutts. They're simply listing their mixed morph frogs as "new varieties".
> 
> Apparently, there is no "low" that's "too low" for for these folks ... I guess with 8000 (their current claim) frogs to unload they'll do whatever it takes to dump a few frogs and scratch up a few bucks from the unsuspecting.
> 
> Speaking of 8000 frogs, what kind of knucklehead keeps breeding and producing frogs with that kind of inventory on hand? I think it will be their massive inventory (if it's what they claim) that will be their eventually undoing.


They don't have that many, there is no way. To them its more of a mines bigger than yours statement. Think of just the cultures alone. It would be a logistical nightmare to keep up on that in this hobby. I keep 1 culture per 3 frogs. Even if they weren't keeping them at that ratio you would have to assume they keep at least 1000 plus. Thats 1 per 8 frogs. Full time job keeping up with that alone.
As for the listings together under "juvenile frogs". They have all under 1 tab. Thats fine from a sales point. If you are looking for a juvi then you search all in one place. They at least call them different names. Granted they have already began to recycle names so who knows what. I think they got lost in all the BS "research" papers. The new varieties crap. That is just a new way for them to not use the word hybrid.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> A new low ... they've just tossed all of their frog listings together under "juvenile frogs". No attempt whatsoever to differentiate between pure morphs and their mutts. They're simply listing their mixed morph frogs as "new varieties".
> 
> Apparently, there is no "low" that's "too low" for for these folks ... I guess with 8000 (their current claim) frogs to unload they'll do whatever it takes to dump a few frogs and scratch up a few bucks from the unsuspecting.
> 
> Speaking of 8000 frogs, what kind of knucklehead keeps breeding and producing frogs with that kind of inventory on hand? I think it will be their massive inventory (if it's what they claim) that will be their eventually undoing.


I thought about that a while back but didn't want to make any comments so rick can just dig his own grave faster. If they honestly have 8k frogs on hand...I cant say the rest (mods will ban me lol but it is easy to fill in the rest). Rick could be just fine with an inventory 10% of the current size and that's still 800 frogs LOL. I had a business class in my curriculum a year ago where we had to generate our own mock company and draft a business plan up. Inventory management was a topic to pay attention to for sure...Dillon and Rick obviously didnt put much, if any, constructive thought into DFW lmao.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> I thought about that a while back but didn't want to make any comments so rick can just dig his own grave faster. If they honestly have 8k frogs on hand...I cant say the rest (mods will ban me lol but it is easy to fill in the rest). Rick could be just fine with an inventory 10% of the current size and that's still 800 frogs LOL. I had a business class in my curriculum a year ago where we had to generate our own mock company and draft a business plan up. Inventory management was a topic to pay attention to for sure...Dillon and Rick obviously didnt put much, if any, constructive thought into DFW lmao.


I can't find anything specific, but he's said some things in the past that really lead me to believe he is estimating tadpoles and including them in his numbers. I'm honestly looking forward to the claim that they have over 10k on hand.


----------



## srrrio

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This 8000 number has had me more upset then anything they have said or done. Actually I felt the same way when they came on the scene touting 2000. 
Even if the number includes a great deal of tadpoles, it makes me sick. 

I have generally don't raise big numbers of tinctorius or auratus as I let them tank raise. This season I am attempting to shut down their breeding all together. I want no part in creating disposable frogs. I know I am probably overreacting, yet I can envision their frogs being sold at $4.99 retail. Although I certainly have concerns for the hobby ..I have bigger concerns for the PDF species that this irreverent company is mass producing.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> I can't find anything specific, but he's said some things in the past that really lead me to believe he is estimating tadpoles and including them in his numbers. I'm honestly looking forward to the claim that they have over 10k on hand.


If I'm not mistaken, that count also included eggs. I believe Rick/Dillon stated that in the original DFW thread, but I may be wrong.

How can anyone think it is a good idea to keep that many frogs/tads/eggs?? No one can make money when they have that many frogs. I honestly feel terrible when I think of all the pressure they are putting on their frogs to breed and I highly doubt that they give them a good resting period. Dart Frog Warehouse is going to burn itself out and when that day comes, I will shed tears of joy. 

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not surprisingly they've amended their "Do we have critics" Question significantly. Not surprisingly, Rick still doesn't have the courage to stand behind the lies and false claims he makes, so he just edits them out so he doesn't have to answer for his actions. Probably one of the major reasons they fled Dendroboard, because they can't delete or edit their past statements when they're proven false, wrong, misleading, etc.

As for 8K frogs, probably BS, but if they do, as has been mentioned, it is their downfall and an example of just bad business planning. Only an idiot would mass produce thousands of very common frogs with relatively low demand for those species/morphs. I suspect Rick is just trying inflate their considerably poor image. The last place I'd buy a frog is a puppy mill type operation that breeds thousands of frogs. What's better, a company that churns out millions of crappy cars(Chevy/Kia) or a company that pay serious attention to detail and produces far fewer cars(BMW/Mercedes). Grats Rick on being the Kia of the frog world.

Selling all the frogs together with no distinction was predicted long ago by several of us.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Even though they don't distinguish between their hybrid frogs and natural occurring mophs, at least they seem to have gone back to using the generally accepted names for their natural morphs instead of the made-up names they used to have.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



phender said:


> Even though they don't distinguish between their hybrid frogs and natural occurring mophs, at least they seem to have gone back to using the generally accepted names for their natural morphs instead of the made-up names they used to have.


Actually it depends where you look. Some places they're offering Cobalts, other places they're calling them Aurora. Same with Malibu and Azureus. Worse yet is them using some of the names they'd previously assigned to existing morphs to the hybrid frogs they're selling(for example they once called Powder Blue's "Denim", they're now using "Denim" for a "New Variety" hybrid.

Even they can't keep their nonsensical names strait now. Is anyone surprised?

Also noticed, they're no longer lying about saying they never said they would sell hybrid frogs.


----------



## bsr8129

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Not surprisingly they've amended their "Do we have critics" Question significantly. Not surprisingly, Rick still doesn't have the courage to stand behind the lies and false claims he makes, so he just edits them out so he doesn't have to answer for his actions. Probably one of the major reasons they fled Dendroboard, because they can't delete or edit their past statements when they're proven false, wrong, misleading, etc.
> 
> As for 8K frogs, probably BS, but if they do, as has been mentioned, it is their downfall and an example of just bad business planning. Only an idiot would mass produce thousands of very common frogs with relatively low demand for those species/morphs. I suspect Rick is just trying inflate their considerably poor image. The last place I'd buy a frog is a puppy mill type operation that breeds thousands of frogs. What's better, a company that churns out millions of crappy cars(Chevy/Kia) or a company that pay serious attention to detail and produces far fewer cars(BMW/Mercedes). Grats Rick on being the Kia of the frog world.
> 
> Selling all the frogs together with no distinction was predicted long ago by several of us.


 I am offended by this. I drive a Chevy.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



bsr8129 said:


> I am offended by this. I drive a Chevy.


I knew I'd offend someone...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess when you can't sell frogs and you need to do whatever it takes to keep the lights on, using a trademarked name for a frog to identify them as the source, really isn't so important after all.....


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Maybe this is their end game, like Saddam Hussein. Uncap all the wells, set em on fire... and watch the world burn


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The video they made a while back is up on their kingsnake ad if anyone missed it last time they put it up. Comments disabled this time though.


----------



## oldlady25715

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just watched it. Flashy piece but mostly more unsubstantiated claims. At one point the narrator says they designed new scientific ways to keep dartfrogs and then they explain that the plants process the frog waste. WTF?


----------



## J_Dog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wow! These people butchered Lotters words out of reality. They don't even understand what they are reading, or saying. They are basically saying the opposite of everything Lotters says. LOL. 

Here is Lotters contact information if someone wants to send him a link to their website page where they talk about his book:
Universität Trier: Biogeographie - Lötters

Anyways, you guys are doing a great job keeping the online hobby informed to stay clear of them. They will be out of business before the end of the year.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



oldlady25715 said:


> Just watched it. Flashy piece but mostly more unsubstantiated claims. At one point the narrator says they designed new scientific ways to keep dartfrogs and then they explain that the plants process the frog waste. WTF?


Ya that is one of the benefits of having outsiders and their film crew who both probably know very little about the hobby or the animals... You can pretty much make any claim you want, and they almost have to take your word for it. If much of the audience is uninformed too, then all the better for them I guess.

Also the format is one sided, especially with comments disabled (further keeping people uninformed)... so that's also nice for them. 

Just seems to me the more isolated and uninformed the audience, the better (IMO) they seem to like it... almost like a *predator*, you could say.

And why not... if it makes them a buck? I'm sure the show would also love to get something for their effort, and not even bother with the drama that might turn into bad PR for them... so putting the piece of (Oops) back up/with comments disabled is in their interests too, it seems.

I guess it is a win/win for everyone with a vested financial interest in the business and/or the puff piece... Sad for many others, but a few dollars and the illusion of credibility I guess are worth subjecting others to that for some. (Yet we are the ones who supposedly this is all about the money for???)

In fairness the plants will use the frog poop as food, but I think microfauna including bacteria do most of the "processing". Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I won't try to cover it up by saying it was just a legit business tactic *cough * BS *cough * BS! 

As for their scientific advances, I'm not aware of anything they didn't "borrow" from someone else. Except maybe applying this phenotype stuff to try and control the design of franken frogs. I don't think anyone hit on that crap, or at least was willing to openly piss this many people off in the attempt. It also kinda reminds me how they claimed to be shipping experts from almost day one... They seem very comfortable making huge claims based on what seem to me to be tiny/skewed foundations.

Really I see that as their biggest innovation... a never before seen willingness to break taboos and (IMO) be deceptive about it, and in their attempts to justify it. 

Groundbreaking!!! ...They should do a Ted talk on it, or I guess save some time and just edit in a "Ted" graphic for this video. 


Again even if someone is for a designer frog hobby, or just doesn't care if there is one... 
I still don't know how they justify buying frogs and trusting these people with a chunk of our future


----------



## easternversant

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



J_Dog said:


> Wow! These people butchered Lotters words out of reality. They don't even understand what they are reading, or saying. They are basically saying the opposite of everything Lotters says. LOL.
> 
> Here is Lotters contact information if someone wants to send him a link to their website page where they talk about his book:
> Universität Trier: Biogeographie - Lötters
> 
> Anyways, you guys are doing a great job keeping the online hobby informed to stay clear of them. They will be out of business before the end of the year.


Maybe ONE person could email Dr. Lotters (he heard about this early on). He is busy and I'm sure he doesn't need his email blowing up over this.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I believe that earlier in this thread it was mentioned that Dr. Lotters has already been made aware, and elected not to pursue any legal actions at this time...


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

why would he bother. to the people that dart frog warehouse sales to they don't know the book or who Lotters is. those that do know who he is also know that the quotes on dart frog warehouse are completely taken out of context


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



SDK said:


> I believe that earlier in this thread it was mentioned that Dr. Lotters has already been made aware, and elected not to pursue any legal actions at this time...


Probably not worth taking legal action, but some kind of statement from him and/or the other authors as to their opinion on the subject would be nice.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I took a moment to email Dr. Lotters and asked for his opinion on the subject. I was careful not to predispose him to our opinion. I am hopeful he will take a moment to answer. I'm not entirely sure he speaks English, and my German, taken in high school, is VERY rusty, so I didn't hazard a try at that.


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Probably not worth taking legal action, but some kind of statement from him and/or the other authors as to their opinion on the subject would be nice.


Wholeheartedly agree and am hoping he responds as well....


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

There are multiple authors that contributed to that book, why is everyone assuming that Lotters is the person who actually wrote that section? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Everybody isn't. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> but some kind of statement from him *and/or the other authors as to their *opinion on the subject would be nice.





He is the only person whose contact information was available. I would like to be able to CC all the other authors so if anyone has the contact info for Jungfer, Henkle, Shmidt, that would be fantastic. I fully anticipate that he may respond that he didn't author that section, but his input on the subject would be valuable, and if one of the authors is responsible, I'll ask for input from them as well.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Doug,

How would it benefit Lotters et al to respond to this? 

How could it go bad for them to be pulled into this mess? 

How would it look if an anti-science/anti-evolution group started putting it out on the web that those people were picking on a person just trying to make some money. Look how much some of those kinds of people who were elected by the masses cause issues with science funding in our own government. How much of an issue do you think they could cause for people that still need research grants to fund further work that in the end benefits the hobby? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Ed said:


> Doug,
> 
> How would it benefit Lotters et al to respond to this?


Probably not at all, but people don't always act in their own self interest. There is a benifit to us and some people actually do care when the context and intent of there work is misrepresented and abused.


What's that line about "good men doing nothing"?



> How could it go bad for them to be pulled into this mess?


Obviously you have some ideas, why don't you enlighten us?



> How would it look if an anti-science/anti-evolution group started putting it out on the web that those people were picking on a person just trying to make some money. Look how much some of those kinds of people who were elected by the masses cause issues with science funding in our own government. How much of an issue do you think they could cause for people that still need research grants to fund further work that in the end benefits the hobby?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Oh please.... As if Rick and his merry band of child laborers could cause them any problems.  these four authors are all already well respected and work across the pond. I seriously doubt that any concerns the Wascher's could raise would be taken seriously. They'd be laughed off.

If "the Gang" as Rick likes to refer to them, has nothing to say, so be it. I took it upon myself to ask for their input, and that is the end of it.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess you don't follow the news too closely then... Sage-Grouse Rider Frustrates Conservation Efforts | The National Law Review 

Doug, all because you believe that they couldn't raise any support doesn't mean that they can't. All it would take is something being passed along through enough groups that then gets passed to legislature.. It's happened before and it'll happen again. There are a lot of people out there who are antiscience and antievolution that would happily get behind that kind of campaign.... 

Think about it this way, what would the odds be for an institution to come out against anything that could later on affect the gate attendance or fund raising? 

All because you wish it to be another way doesn't mean that it will happen or that it is appropriate to pressure others to support you. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I pay attention to the news just fine...  We're talking about some kids in a warehouse in TN, not a powerful energy lobby.

Ed, all because you believe they can raise any support, doesn't mean they can, or that they will..... I honestly think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I didn't pressure anyone for support, I asked for an opinion from them. I didn't ask them to support any position at all, I was very careful to NOT bias them with my own opinion. I simply asked for their opinion on several links provided. For all they know, I'm someone who agrees with the Wascher's. I didn't ask them to come out against anything.

If Lotters et al are concerned, no one is forcing them to reply. If they want to offer an opinion, they can, if not, they won't.

Also, I'm tired of people like us being scared of the antiscience/antievolution crowd. We're all supposed to live in fear of them? Uhmmmmm, thanks, but no thanks.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'd love to have Lotters and/or his gang come out against USAdart, but some scientists don't actually support keeping the animals they study in captivity, at least not as a recreational hobby. 

I'm to poor to afford the book and to lazy to go to the library, or google stalk them... so I have no idea how these guys feel about us, but I'd like to before we wrestle them onto the forums or into releasing some kinda statement 

...just saying


----------



## J_Dog

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sorry moderator. My bad. I apologize.

I didn't realize we couldn't call a squid a squid.

So we are to call it Rick then?


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I find it very unlikely that the authors would want to weigh in on this issue, but there is nothing wrong with doing them the courtesy of letting them know someone is misrepresenting their work to make a buck. That's been done now. Thanks Doug.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> I find it very unlikely that the authors would want to weigh in on this issue, but there is nothing wrong with doing them the courtesy of letting them know someone is misrepresenting their work to make a buck. That's been done now. Thanks Doug.


You're welcome, but again, just so we are clear. I made no mention that I/we think they are misrepresenting anything. I want their honest and unbiased opinion.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Lol, really Ricky?



"usafrog.com" said:


> EUROPEAN (EU) Dart Frogs (New Varieties!)
> *The frogs named in this category were recently discovered, or imported into Europe with little or no introduction into the United States of America*. Our EU frogs are captive bred in the U.S.A., identical to many of the rare European color morphs, and only available from USA Frog.
> 
> >>>The original Villa Nova color morph of the species Tinctorius is found in the private collections of individuals in Europe. Our Villa Nova is NOT WILD CAUGHT! The Villa Nova we offer is a selectively captive bred SAFE pet dart frog.
> 
> >>>The original New River color morph of the species Tinctorius is found in the private collections of individuals in Europe. Our New River is NOT WILD CAUGHT! The New River we offer is a selectively captive bred SAFE pet dart frog.


and just for fun:



"usafrog.com" said:


> The preceding quotation is translated from Tinctorius.ch The presentation of this quote, and/or the cameo photo of the New River frog, is not intended to establish, or in any way suggest, any relationship between USA Frog and Tinctorius.ch (the source thereof), it's owners or proprietors, because there is no such relationship.
> 
> 
> Note: The information provided immediately above and between the set of double lines is for educational and reporting purposes only. The information is: 1.) within the public domain and not protected by international copyright law, or 2.) subject to the doctrine of Fair Use under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Absolutely no copyrights or ownership rights of any kind are claimed by USA Frog to the material.


Note: The information provided immediately above lines is for educational and reporting purposes only. The information is: 1.) within the public domain and not protected by international copyright law, or 2.) subject to the doctrine of Fair Use under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Absolutely no copyrights or ownership rights of any kind are claimed by edwardsatc to the material.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I _almost_ forgot about this thread... haha

Either way, this entertains me...



> Official (scientific) Name: Dendrobates Tinctorius (harmless pets)


they really need to push the "safe" and "harmless" EVERYWHERE don't they? I suspect someone took an elective high school marketing class and learned about "brand identity".

Also, on the home page everything is listed as "safe pet frog" except their yellow galactonotus that is listed as a "pet dart frog"... does that mean they aren't safe!?


_Note: The information provided immediately above is for educational and reporting purposes only. The information is: 1.) within the public domain and not protected by international copyright law, or 2.) subject to the doctrine of Fair Use under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Absolutely no copyrights or ownership rights of any kind are claimed by carola1155 to the material. _


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

New River Tinc has been here since the early 2000's and possibly '98/'99, they would have known that had they paid their dues and learned some history. Maybe 3 years in the hobby would have exposed them to that...

Note: The information provided immediately above is for educational and reporting purposes only. The information is: 1.) within the public domain and not protected by international copyright law, or 2.) subject to the doctrine of Fair Use under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Absolutely no copyrights or ownership rights of any kind are claimed by markpulawski to the material.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> New River Tinc has been here since the early 2000's and possibly '98/'99, they would have known that had they paid their dues and learned some history. Maybe 3 years in the hobby would have exposed them to that...


My guess is that he's fully aware and this just another angle to suck in their target - uninformed newbs


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> My guess is that he's fully aware and this just another angle to suck in their target - uninformed newbs


It's definitely a ploy to fool the uninformed, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Rick is aware of anything. These folks are full of surprises...


_Note: The information provided immediately above is for educational and reporting purposes only. The information is: 1.) within the public domain and not protected by international copyright law, or 2.) subject to the doctrine of Fair Use under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Absolutely no copyrights or ownership rights of any kind are claimed by FroggyKnight to the material. _

John


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

....he mixes lies with the truth....where have I heard that before....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Wait till you guys hear what Dr. Stephan Lötters had to say.


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Wait till you guys hear what Dr. Stephan Lötters had to say.


When? How? Where?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dev30ils said:


> When? How? Where?


He responded to me by email. I will be posting soon.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Unfortunately I am dealing with this:



> This message is intended for the named recipient only and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you have received it in error, please advise the sender by return e-mail and delete this message including attachments. Thank you. Please note that any unauthorized use or dissemination of this information is strictly prohibited!


So until Dr. Lötters responds with specific permission to share what he said with me, I shouldn't and won't post what he had to say.

Suffice for the time being to say that his opinion is very strongly negative, as we all already assumed.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I tried to update myself on their site the other day, but got physically ill after the first few paragraphs...

So they are claiming their franken frogs that resemble actual morphs are the same as the naturally occurring morphs? ...at least the same as ones in Europe, even though these didn't come from European stock? ...spontaneous generation of REAL morphs, not using parents of that morph?..WHAT!?!? 

...So where is the genetic testing that backs up that extraordinary and confusing claim?

Seem like basically they are willing to call a frog whatever it looks like, even if it was made using other morphs? So if I wanna buy an Azureus and they are out they'll just sell me a new river, or koetari, or a franken mutt because it looks close enough?... NOT AWESOME!!!!!

IMO basically the same as intentionally mislabeling frogs as other morphs to make a sale. Which I predicted may become a problem given their ethical flexibility. Also predicted they had franken frog plans BTW. I guess they missed that these predictions were all negative and not meant to actually be made into a business plan!?!

OK everyone we have to stop saying insane things and positing worse case scenarios, because that appears to be what they use to construct their business plan and marketing campaign.

*"What's the worst thing we could do? ...YA, lets do that! *

I'd bet money there are puppy mills ran with better ethics/morals... if that is possible.

(I'll play too..)
Note: The information provided immediately above is for educational and reporting purposes only. The information is: 1.) within the public domain and not protected by international copyright law, or 2.) subject to the doctrine of Fair Use under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Absolutely no copyrights or ownership rights of any kind are claimed by Dendro Dave to the material.

*In fact I openly welcome them to use the "whats the worst thing we could do, etc..." statement as their new motto, or "USAdart: We might not be as bad as some puppy mills!*... Free of charge


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I would love to hear what Lotters says if it is allowed. It is disgusting that DFW distorts Lotter et al’s research to financially benefit their business. I’m pretty sure that is NOT how fair use is supposed to work and since DFW’s new quote is now a meme disclaimer mentioning Fair Use I got curious… I did read the whole DFW two-thread-saga at one time but can’t remember if this has been mentioned before. A quick search didn’t bring anything up and I don’t want to re-read too much and get sick…as already mentioned by Dendro Dave 

So a quick search on Wikipedia brings up this wonderful summary of what is used to determine fair use 

Fair use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1.	the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2.	the nature of the copyrighted work;
3.	the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4.	the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."


To me the first and fourth points seem to be most relevant when I read what is defined as appropriate for Fair Use without author’s consent. Since DFW uses large sections of the text, even whole pages and screen shots from the book on their commercial website used to promote their business model and operation it doesn’t sound like that should fall under the nonprofit heading used to justify fair use . Furthermore, DFW’s use of Lotter’s work is not only distorting data, but is negatively impacting the value of Lotter’s research by saying Lotter’s work “says” one thing when in fact if you read their actual words is the complete opposite so they are both changing the character of Lotter’s work (Point 1), using it commercially (point 1) and negatively impacting the author’s work (point 4).

Since I am NOT a lawyer (hmm who is a lawyer we could ask…I don’t think we would want to trust their opinion on the matter though since they would have a vested interest in the outcome...) I looked for another site aimed towards businesses to help decide “is it fair use or not?” and found this website that had a nice down-to-earth description of what is roughly described in the wiki listing and they put an example regarding commercial businesses…

The 'Fair Use' Rule: When Use of Copyrighted Material is Acceptable | Nolo.com
“Non-commercial use is often fair use. Violations often occur when the use is motivated primarily by a desire for commercial gain. The fact that a work is published primarily for private commercial gain weighs against a finding of fair use. For example, using the Bob Dylan line "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" in a poem published in a small literary journal would probably be a fair use; using the same line in an advertisement for raincoats probably would not be.”

If Lotters was angry enough about the distortion of his research couldn’t he legally “invoke miss-use of Fair Use” (great sentence huh?) and require permission as author for use of his copywritten material on the commercial website? Which Lotters could then go………BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZttttt NO! Resulting in all DFW’s references using Lotter’s work to support their business to have to legally be removed???? Please, Please, please? This isn’t even my own research and it makes me upset to see scientific data twisted and dragged through the mud to justify and incorrectly add authority and validity to their shady business scheme while making a mess of the frog hobby.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I don't even think it would be a "big legal battle" for the publishing company of the Lotters book to have a lawyer send a Cease and Desist letter to DFW. It certainly seems that DFW is way outside the fair use guidelines.

Heck, as a teacher I can use almost anything I want as long as it is for educational purposes, but I can't show a Disney movie in my class as a "reward" without worrying that Mickey will be at my door to slap my hand.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Suffice for the time being to say that his opinion is very strongly negative, as we all already assumed.


Doug, I just can't put into words how happy that made me. I literally started laughing out loud. I genuinely hope you can share that letter.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Doug, I just can't put into words how happy that made me. I literally started laughing out loud. I genuinely hope you can share that letter.


Oh man, let me tell you, if just knowing this pleases you, you'll be flipping ecstatic! with Lötters response. There is an epic one liner, that it is *KILLING ME* not to share.


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What could make Dendroboard members act like little kiddies at Christmas more than a Lotters letter containing righteous indignation filled with intelligent scientific smack down and peppered with witty one liners? Ah you torment and tease! Hope there is some kind of resolution achieved by Lotters and whatever he may pursue legally and then the actual content of the letter can be shared.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



allegedhuman said:


> What could make Dendroboard members act like little kiddies at Christmas more than a Lotters letter containing righteous indignation filled with intelligent scientific smack down and peppered with witty one liners? Ah you torment and tease! Hope there is some kind of resolution achieved by Lotters and whatever he may pursue legally and then the actual content of the letter can be shared.


Well in that sense, you may end up disappointed. He doesnt take the time to break it all down for them, we've already done all that for him. It's really matter of fact and to the point really. Short and sweet.

As for any kind of legal challenges, I hate to cast doubt on that too, but Lötters is a bit pessimistic about actually doing anything about it, and honestly, if you look at it from his perspective, is it really worth his time? I'm sure he is set on more important things.

Don't worry though, his position is clear, and what he does say, is gold for us.


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Well in that sense, you may end up disappointed. He doesnt take the time to break it all down for them, we've already done all that for him. It's really matter of fact and to the point really. Short and sweet.
> 
> As for any kind of legal challenges, I hate to cast doubt on that too, but Lötters is a bit pessimistic about actually doing anything about it, and honestly, if you look at it from his perspective, is it really worth his time? I'm sure he is set on more important things.
> 
> Don't worry though, his position is clear, and what he does say, is gold for us.


Good to hear. I'll admit, I am quite interested in being able to see his actual response. And whether he's willing to put it out there publicly like this. At any rate, it's good to know we're not the crazy ones here; that is in fact reserved for DFW.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

When you get the good word Doug, give Rick a call and tell him the Lotters news and use yourself as 1 party consent to record the conversation. Maybe there will be a noticable change in Ricks tone when you get him to pull either his foot or head out of something and have a real conversation like a big boy.

Note: The information provided immediately above is for educational and reporting purposes only. The information is: 1.) within the public domain and not protected by international copyright law, or 2.) subject to the doctrine of Fair Use under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Absolutely no copyrights or ownership rights of any kind are claimed by JMILLZ! to the material.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

One thing we know for sure is that Rick (and family?) read this thread so he is no doubt crafting a dizzying labyrinthine defense as we speak. At least it will be entertaining.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> One thing we know for sure is that Rick (and family?) read this thread so he is no doubt crafting a dizzying labyrinthine defense as we speak. At least it will be entertaining.


Yes, entertaining indeed ... like JackAss or Stupid Pet Tricks


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just want to temper expectations here:

a.) Lötters is a man of few words, at least in his response to me, but his opinion is clear. He basically crushes their hybrids with a one liner that that leaves no doubt as to his opinion. He doesn't take time to break it down, he KNOWS we already have and feels there is little left to explain. Basically, it goes without saying that they misrepresented his and the other authors words.

b.) He has "fallen off the radar" as of late. It took a while before I recieved the initial response. He probably has much better things to do. Rick Wascher and Dillion Washer are of little concern to him. He is after all, an actual scientist and researcher, they, *ARE NOT*. I will not pester him anymore than I already have. i expressed that I felt that his words would be well recieved and would be very meaningful to the community.

Since it took about 2 weeks time for the initial response, I'm going to give it that long for him to respond. After that, I'll assume his silence means he isn't going to respond, for whatever reason, and will post again letting you guys know.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hey Doug - thank you for tracking this information down.

It's nice to hear it directly from the source rather than to have it quoted by a couple of people who are spinning things so fast that they forgot where they started (or why).

s


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Even if Lotters doesn't instigate a legal challenge, as a lawyer Rick should realize the position he put himself in where he has used extensive copywritten material on his commercial website without the approval of the author or publishing company and, even worse, has misrepresented the content and meaning of the original work that he has stolen and posted on his business page. I've heard of lawsuits filed for less frivolous things and won. Just because Rick is a lawyer doesn't mean he should stick his butt out and create a situation where he could be asking for a lawsuit thinking that kind of stuff doesn't apply to lawyers.



Boondoggle said:


> One thing we know for sure is that Rick (and family?) read this thread so he is no doubt crafting a dizzying labyrinthine defense as we speak. At least it will be entertaining.


Hmmm how to backpedal and have DFW save face in light that they now definitely know Lotters is displeased regarding misrepresentation and improper use of his work on the warehouse's business page and to avoid potential legal issues just in the fear that Lotter/his publisher may make the effort to confront them….

Well they’ve stated Lotters is, in their exact words that: _(Disclaimer: the author of this post makes no guarantee as of future content of text regarding the science page on the DFW website regarding their mention of Lotters, etc following potential editing and massive redacting of said page following posting of this content as of approximately 4:00pm eastern time on the Seventeenth day, in the second month of the Two thousandth and fifteenth year of our lord)_

_*“The Lotters, et al. treatise is THE one and only true authority in print. Too many other works and web resources are wrong, and some are intentionally so. We whole heartedly rejoice in the truth presented by Lotters, et al., and it is with great thanks and appreciation we use excerpts from their work and recommend it completely! USA Frog *_“

The great thing is how they apparently try to imply they have the author’s approval and blessing to use the material on their page by thanking them for the excerpts when in fact the author is not at all happy about how his material is being used or distorted on their website to sell frogs… classy move 

So they’ve painted themselves into a corner where they justified their business plan based on data from the one and only experts but now they know the experts are aware and disagree with DFW’s use of their material. DFW could just pick another source (2nd place is still pretty good, right? Oh wait. They also said ONLY authority so this is apparently a one horse race. Sorry Rick, No second option) to help sell your crazy Kool-aid but then you would be contradicting a huge section of the website and core basis of “lotter’s is the best” marketing justification and that would be just wrong to say one thing and then suddenly pull a 180 and say wait…Lotters is not that good… so changing their opinions, stances, promises would NEVER happen based on the history of integrity and honesty shown in their previous promises regarding things such as their plan to never sell crosses, etc. 

^^^^Crap, I can’t find the sarcasm font to use for my last sentence above…bummer. Hope nobody gets too confused by the last sentence…sorry  ^^^^

Not to give aid to the enemy, but who wants to bet Rick tries to find some reachingly obscure lawyerese justification for why he can still use the copywritten Lotter source for his business plan without the author’s approval or if there is a massive edit and things suddenly, *plink* disappear to be replace with something along the lines of; 

Wait, Lotters?…never heard of ‘em. Have I told you how the frog enthusiast and scientific community are racist yet? No, really it is true! The best way I can explain it to you is compare them to the evil, eugenic Axis powers during WWII and DFW is the avenging and righteous Allied powers bringing freedom to the frogs from Hitler… err, I mean hobby and scientific powers…. And YOU the poor, naïve frog-newbie will be like the United States swinging to the rescue by giving your money to the war effort by buying from us, DFW!

Hope their FAQ page now has listed below “Have you ever changed your company name?” a new question asking “Why the change and about-face regarding your position about your former scientific idol and justification for your business plan, Lotters?”

Or…would they dare…I tremble in fear to consider it even....but what if in the craftiest, nastiest, repugnant-est move ever… DFW now reveals on their science page that they have produced their own independent scientific research to generate a NEW volume and scientific treatise which surpasses even Lotters in scope, scale, knowledge and trademark-abilitiy! MWAHHAHAHA-hahhha-ha-sniffle…sob…cries... I await news of their publication in a major scientific journal anyday now...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

allegedhuman 

I dunno who the heck you are or where you came from, but damn if I don't like the cut of your jig bro.

Welcome to the party!


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks Doug. I’m definitely no a sailor so I’m not sure how this chick’s jib is cut compared to most (I would assume snarky and sarcastic) but I appreciate the complement. 

I’ve had some frogs for about 3 years but only recently have I found this forum and been stalking it and reading a lot of the archives. I love science and work in research so I guess that is why threads about DFW and all of the twisted information they are trying to pass off as truth to trump up their business gets me irritated enough to post when normally I am more of a stalker. I will try to be seen in more topics besides ones involving the craziness which is DFW. 

Another thanks to you too Doug for being the liaison with Lotters and getting his opinion regarding DFW and now back to our regularly scheduled craziness...


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I trust Doug that what was said by Lotters amounts to what it says he does, so I'm good there and tickled pink even if we never get the word for word version, (but really curious to know) 

...So now I'm just sitting here with popcorn, a drink, boots, poncho, and umbrella awaiting the deluge of BS that will be required from Rick to explain this away, (or silence because it is hopeless to try). 

This is the calm before the storm (of BS), and I sense a "whopper" or several coming. And we know who has a fondnness for "whoppers", (Hint) ...they IMO, built their business on them 

Maybe we should start a mail campaign, where we send USAdart a bunch of those cardboard crowns from Burger King. A crown for our king who took it upon himself to try and redefine the hobby for us with his (IMO) BS/whoppers and fell prey to his own hubris


----------



## Handfishinghillbilly

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Can we publish this thread into a book? LOL great read


----------



## scooter7728

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

what mutation is the surfside tinc? and I just saw he has a patent certificate for these frogs.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



scooter7728 said:


> what mutation is the surfside tinc? and I just saw he has a patent certificate for these frogs.


Not a mutation at all. Just a cross between 2 or more locality of tincs. In every sense of the scientific and accepted definition it is a crossbreed, although Rick seems to define that differently. 

He doesn't share his recipe, not that it matters. Rick has more patents request than he has frogs. If you study the trademark system it really only refers to his attempts to give public notice that he feels he has sole claim to the phrase/word/name. Among other things he claims to have legal rights to the words "safe" and "designer". He seems to forget that "designer" has been used by the hobby for years as a way to negatively refer to crossbreeds and hybrids.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



That Ridiculous Site said:


> EUROPEAN (E.U.) Series (New Varieties!)
> 
> The frogs named in this category were recently discovered, or imported into Europe with little or no introduction into the United States of America. In addition, illegal importation of wild caught frogs into the pet trade is the number one officially recognized, "Major Threat" to their existence. The overwhelming majority view is captive bred frogs are the best substitute for imported wild caught frogs, and the best way to avoid the inherent risks of importing and owning wild poison dart frogs.
> 
> The EU frogs we offer are:
> 
> 1. selectively captive bred in the U.S.A.;
> 2. identical to many of the rare European color morphs; and
> 3. only available from USA Frog.


This has probably been there for a while, but I haven't visited it for a long time. It seems to cross a line, even for Rick. After this confusing preamble he lists his frogs as both "Villa Nova" and "New River". He is not saying that these animals resemble those localities/importations, he is not saying they are identical, he is saying these animals, while captive bred and crossbreeds _are_ those animals. 

Super deceptive. 

Note: The information provided immediately above is for educational and reporting purposes only. The information is: 1.) within the public domain and not protected by international copyright law, or 2.) subject to the doctrine of Fair Use under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Absolutely no copyrights or ownership rights of any kind are claimed by Boondoggle to the material.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"Only available from usafrog" 

...Wish that was true but would bet money some other morons have created frogs that look similar, which seems to be all that is required to claim frogs are in fact the same morph they just happen to look like.

It is ironic that he's been pushing this American frog BS, then turns around and basically mimics China and counterfeiting of USA/EU products by attempting what in my opinion amounts to counterfeiting EU morphs. Also slightly odd that he is trying to ride on the EU frogs' coat tails after pimping that USA BS.

You know I had a dog named Dax that basically looked like a German Shepard with rottweiler or Doberman markings. She was a lovable mutt that needed rescuing, but I guess by Rick's logic we could have sold her or her puppies as any of those 3 breeds to any moron that didn't know better. 

*Hell*, I guess since her name was Dax I could have claimed she was actually Terry Farrell or Nicole de Boer, and had her sign autographs at star trek conventions for $$$, If I was you know... *comfortable with fraud*, (and could teach a dog to write with a pen).

Hypocrisy + hubris x claimed good intentions: hmm wonder where that road might lead to? 

Wish he'd just buy a Playboy instead of trying to get his rocks off screwing with the community and taking advantage of the ill informed


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I`ve asked myself this question so many times my head hurts...

Why do they bother printing all that garbage when the people buying their frogs don`t know what the hell it means anyway.
Guy`s just make it easier on yourselves and just tell everyone how awesome and big and awesome and big they are.

ok, back to my cave


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

...and who`s the hot little brunette with the platform shoe`s they`re using now? Is that supposed to attract a male audience?
I think that`s a bit much for the pre-teen crowd they`re going after. Seems to me that doesn`t quite fit with their "beliefs" either.

But then again what the hell do I know..right?
I don`t pretend to be something I`m not


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> ...and who`s the hot little brunette with the platform shoe`s they`re using now? Is that supposed to attract a male audience?
> I think that`s a bit much for the pre-teen crowd...


That's funny. That caught my eye too. It's just a cartoon but I stopped for a minute and though "is that weird, or is it just me?" What the heck happened to Vic Turducken, or whatever?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> That's funny. That caught my eye too. It's just a cartoon but I stopped for a minute and though "is that weird, or is it just me?" What the heck happened to Vic Turducken, or whatever?


 Vic died in a fiery accident. One cold winter morning, Dillon forgot to open a window to let the methane gases escape after all the BS dad had been piling up while doing "site edits". One snap of those fingers and it was all over for Vic Ruutan.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That`s too bad. I had heard they didn`t renew his contract and he was coming over here to the Dark Side


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So this is interesting...

USAfrankenfrogs-
*"Important NOTE! 
This particular category does not contain ALL of the many color morphs we offer for sale, and we have the most. The reason for the limitation is the conventional dart frog hobby is very restrictive as to what is deemed an acceptable hobby dendrobate dart frog. Moreover, the dart frog hobby bosses do not completely embrace the natural variations of offspring, have been known to reject a "European Hobby" or the color morphs not already in the United States, any form of DESIGNER frog–some of which they advocate destroying (i.e., killing), or even the possibility of new color morphs popping up in the wild. This is unfortunate and sad, as so much fun is being"*

Ok Rick has yet again decided to "educate" us about our hobby, so time for more corrections I guess...

1. Umm I think most of us are fine with natural diversity. We just don't advocate breeding programs to turn a genetic fluke (or whatever) into a new morph, nor are we willing to engage in what amounts (IMO) to fraud by selling a frog as a morph it isn't, just because it happens to look similar. As far as I know Rick you are the only one claiming a hybrid of two morphs = an entirely new morph, or is equal to an actual morph as long is it looks fairly similar. The 2 frogs you force together in your frog mill didn't evolve naturally in wild circumstances, and you again just skim over the fact that many of these frogs haven't seen each other in the wild for thousands of years, and aren't likely to for a 1000 more. If you wanna buy into your own BS fine, but stop pawning it off on us and the unsuspecting newbies who you are getting off to a rocky start in the hobby.

2. I'm not sure where this stuff about rejecting EU frogs or ACTUAL MORPHs comes from. Closest thing I know of is we don't agree on all the names EU uses, or it is thought some of the "morphs" are actually hybrids, like that one Tinc "morph" that was actually a hybrid that used to be listed on tropical.nl's morph guide. Ya we wanna keep frogs that we aren't sure are the same as ours separate, because a lot of people here care about that, and we aren't as comfortable misleading people as you seem to be. But many frogs currently here were imported from the EU, so which frogs did we reject? Maybe we can clear this up for you.

3. I'm fine if a new morph arises naturally in the wild.. I and it seems most others here just don't feel that an occasional random pairing of 2 morphs in the wild results in offspring that should be deemed an entirely new morph. Flukes (or whatever) aren't morphs!  When enough flukes (or whatever) happen that the frogs create a new population consistently breeding with a different phenotype then maybe we can talk, and there is a big difference in how that occurs in the wild and the timescales it takes place in VS you and your forced match making franken frog factory and its much much faster timescale. 

4. We advocate destroying some frogs because they are designer? ...Meh to be fair it has been mentioned, but I think it was only put forth as an option (an unpopular one) to keep a frog out of naive or unscrupulous hands... Like your's Rick (IMO). In almost all cases most of us actually advocate people just keeping and enjoying the frog. *So at best here we have another gross exaggeration IMO *

Just seems to be more wrong and/or misleading info and blowing things way out of proportion, while peddling that conspiracy nonsense again. I don't really get how he justifies defining our hobby for us when he said he isn't even part of it, and well if he was, he has basically been ostracized from it... not to mention he seems to think he is a bigger expert on us then we are on ourselves after only being around for a few years and burning most of his bridges before they were even built. Where does he get this BS? 

Silly rabbit, we are tired of your trix... The frog bosses I think have officially fired you... Please cease and desist all business operations and crawl back under that greasy rock you came from. 

Oh and please don't kill all the frogs you will be stuck with when you finally go under... Just don't sell them since no one will ever be able to trust they are what you say they are (on that day of the week).

*What is unfortunate and sad is your business model/marketing, your BS, and generally how you've conducted yourself... and it is you who has also taken more fun out of this hobby then almost any other person I'm aware of that has ever sold a dart frog (IMO). 

Even if we all shut up today, these black marks are going to follow you forever... just cut your losses man, you done screwed up*


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Dave, if I were Gay I`d ask you to marry me


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Dave, if I were Gay I`d ask you to marry me


...Who wouldn't? Even lesbians like me


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

BTW *USAfrankenfrog* is still pimping that "*"personal choice*" *BS*...

(*Brown* is For *BS*)

*"7. Not suprisingly, the experts also say keeping (and breeding) the polymorphic species of frogs including tinctorius, auratus, leucomelas, in groups is just fine and simply a matter of choice! 
The experts do encourage keeping them within species: Tinctorius with Tinctorius, Auratus with Auratus, Leucomelas with Leucomelas, etc. So as not to miss anything important (LOL, ya we wouldn't want that would we Rick?), the section on "Communal Keeping" is provided below. "*

So nevermind that they themselves circled the "*or varieties*" part twice (3 times if you count they also circled "or" again). Admittedly they made that important info hard to miss, but wow the Balls on them to circle it 2-3 times then still ignore it in their interpretation. (That to me suggests they think or at least hope potential buyers don't catch on.)

Old news, but worth repeating since it is still going on and a prime example in my opinion of Rick's willingness to stretch, omit, ignore or reinterpret the truth, and hope that no one notices/understands whats happening .
(*Buyer BEWARE*).


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Dave, does that mean the part that says " keeping the natural forms pure incaptivity is an aim everyone should pursue" is optional because it was only circled once? I'm sure Ricks stupid response to that would be something like their localities are all the same, Planet Earth, and we have dominion over them.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You ever notice how some people just get unnecessarily wordy when they're trying to pull one over on you? I guess it's the whole "baffle them with BS" technique.

USAfrankenfrogs-
"Important NOTE!
*This particular category does not contain ALL of the many color morphs we offer for sale*, and we have the most. *The reason for the limitation is the conventional dart frog hobby* is very restrictive as to what is deemed an acceptable hobby dendrobate dart frog. Moreover, the dart frog hobby bosses do not completely embrace the natural variations of offspring, have been known to *reject(s)* a "European Hobby" or the color morphs not already in the United States, *any form of DESIGNER frog*–some of which they advocate destroying (i.e., killing), or even the possibility of new color morphs popping up in the wild. This is unfortunate and sad, as so much fun is being"

See how much easier that is, Rick? I emphasized just the parts that weren't lies, half truths and BS. Think of how much time you would save if you just stuck to "whatever things are true".


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> Dave, does that mean the part that says " keeping the natural forms pure incaptivity is an aim everyone should pursue" is optional because it was only circled once? I'm sure Ricks stupid response to that would be something like their localities are all the same, Planet Earth, and we have dominion over them.


Meh, I guess ... 

I'm not sure what goes on in* Rick's* mind, but If I had theorize I'd suggest his *thought processes* seem to *go* *something like this*...

*$$$, lie, $$$, wake up, lie, $$$, $$$, $$$, $$$, eat, piss everyone off, $$$ edit website, $$$, frogs,$$$, edit website, $$$, say anything, $$$, edit website, $$$, My word is law, $$$, edit website, $$$, lie, $$$, pee, $$$, omit, $$$, spin, $$$, piss everyone off, stretch, $$$, skew, $$$, BS pseudoscience, $$$, edit website, $$$, poop, $$$, $$$, $$$, My word is law, $$$, edit website, $$$, lie, $$$, omit, $$$ piss everyone off, $$$, spin, $$$, $$$, $$$, $$$, $$$, $$$, lie, $$$, sleep, $$$, lie,$$$, $$$, (Rinse/repeat)...*

Note that in my theory thoughts of money and lies precede him actually waking up for the day and continue on after sleep, and actual thought of frogs is extremely rare. I feel that understanding is important, and will ultimately be what proves my theory more correct then any others to date. I fully expect to win the nobel for that breakthrough.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> Meh, I guess ...
> 
> I'm not sure what goes on in* Rick's* mind...


Epic.

My guess...

Step 1: Trademark Frogs
Step 2: Tell Lies
Step 3: ????????
Step 4: Profit!!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

In response to a recent FOR SALE ad here, on Dendroboard, my suspicions were aroused as to the origins of the frogs, especially since that ad uses the same terms as USA Frog, so I took it upon myself to inquire:



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Are the various Dendrobates Tinctorius dart frogs you have recently offered for
> sale produced by USA Frog in TN?


The response



> The Tincs that we currently have available are from a variety of breeders. We do deal with USA Frogs, but unfortunately I would not be able to tell if these frogs are from them specifically.


I don't know what is more concerning, that they "deal with" USA Frog or that they cannot tell which frogs are which.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*LLLreptile*? (If I got the wrong company please correct me). 

...Simply stating that they seem to be selling usadart's frogs doesn't in my mind constitute vendor feed back.

(*But I'll word this carefully...*)
I think everyone that might have a problem with that should write them and *politely* direct them to this and the other thread. Let them know that a large % of us want nothing to do with those frogs or any business that deals with usadart (if that's the case). 

I have a feeling usadart wholesaling their frogs is the only way they are staying afloat, and if a boycott or even the threat of one can nip that in the butt or put a dent in it (assuming someone doesnt want them in the hobby), then seems to me that's what should happen.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*BTW...*


Boondoggle said:


> Epic.
> 
> My guess...
> 
> Step 1: Trademark Frogs
> Step 2: Tell Lies
> Step 3: ????????
> Step 4: Profit!!


Step 3: Do psuedoscience???


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I don't know what is more concerning, that they "deal with" USA Frog or that they cannot tell which frogs are which.


Concerning, but not surprising. Wonder if the business in question is even aware of USA frog's rep in general given that they rarely post anything beyond sale ads. A few polite, well worded emails or calls might convince them to utilize other wholesale sources. Or not.

Edit: beat me to the punch, Dave. Damn slow cell phone keypad. +1.


----------



## jarteta97

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just want to thank everyone on this thread for making me laugh at least a dozen times every time I catch up. Just visiting the Frankenfrog website makes me want to vomit. I'll be sending a bouquet of roses to every participator in this thread (2 for Dave)


----------



## Razzi

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just went on usa frogs website again. It's been a few months. Looks as if they changed it around a bit. It's truly disturbing that "big" names such as LLL buy from these people. All we can do as hobbyist is attempt to inform everyone we can, we have to spread the word using social media and word of mouth. If there's anything I can do to help please just ask. I really hope we as a grooo


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Just in case these folks bother to read here ...

I will never, EVER, associate with a company that knowingly associates with DFW.

EVER.

So if you are reading here and you associate with DFW, and you care, you may want to reconsider whom you associate with.

Anyone else feel this way?

Scott MacDonald
Tucson, AZ


Dane said:


> Concerning, but not surprising. Wonder if the business in question is even aware of USA frog's rep in general given that they rarely post anything beyond sale ads. A few polite, well worded emails or calls might convince them to utilize other wholesale sources. Or not.
> 
> Edit: beat me to the punch, Dave. Damn slow cell phone keypad. +1.


----------



## Razzi

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> Just in case these folks bother to read here ...
> 
> I will never, EVER, associate with a company that knowingly associates with DFW.
> 
> EVER.
> 
> So if you are reading here and you associate with DFW, and you care, you may want to reconsider whom you associate with.
> 
> Anyone else feel this way?
> 
> Scott MacDonald
> 
> Tucson, AZ


I couldn't have said it any better myself!!!


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> Just in case these folks bother to read here ...
> 
> I will never, EVER, associate with a company that knowingly associates with DFW.
> 
> EVER.
> 
> So if you are reading here and you associate with DFW, and you care, you may want to reconsider whom you associate with.
> 
> Anyone else feel this way?


I agree 100%

If it were in my power I certainly wouldn't allow LLL to continue advertising on this site If they continue to do business with DFW.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Can't take it that far - as long as they're being upfront about what they're selling - there is no stopping what they advertise. After all, we HAVE allowed hybrids to be advertised here. We don't LIKE IT mind you, but honesty is where it's at - as long as they're being honest about what they sell - they're allowed to post.

Now, having said that, they're allowed to post - but that allows us to make informed decisions. And I've stated what my informed decision would be.

I will not deal with them. I will not deal with what they sponsor (and I believe they're sponsoring a major event out west this Summer?). I will not associate with THEM at all.

s


Dev30ils said:


> I agree 100%
> 
> If it were in my power I certainly wouldn't allow LLL to continue advertising on this site If they continue to do business with DFW.


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They are unfortunately considered a site sponsor and have banner ads that appear quite frequently here.

I'm just saying that if I owned this website I would cancel their sponsorship and remove their banner ads ASAP. It's unfortunate that you guys wouldn't be allowed to do such a thing.



Scott said:


> Can't take it that far - as long as they're being upfront about what they're selling - there is no stopping what they advertise. After all, we HAVE allowed hybrids to be advertised here. We don't LIKE IT mind you, but honesty is where it's at - as long as they're being honest about what they sell - they're allowed to post.
> 
> Now, having said that, they're allowed to post - but that allows us to make informed decisions. And I've stated what my informed decision would be.
> 
> I will not deal with them. I will not deal with what they sponsor (and I believe they're sponsoring a major event out west this Summer?). I will not associate with THEM at all.
> 
> s


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

"You guys"?

Remember, Moderators just moderate. We do not own.

Vertical Scope owns. They're here to make $.

s


Dev30ils said:


> They are unfortunately considered a site sponsor and have banner ads that appear quite frequently here.
> 
> I'm just saying that if I owned this website I would cancel their sponsorship and remove their banner ads ASAP. It's unfortunate that you guys wouldn't be allowed to do such a thing.


----------



## Dev30ils

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> "You guys"?
> 
> Remember, Moderators just moderate. We do not own.
> 
> Vertical Scope owns. They're here to make $.
> 
> s


That's exactly what I'm saying.


----------



## Scott

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I figured as much. I'm just making sure it's clear that we (Moderators) have no ownership interest whatsoever.

We serve the Hobby, but we cannot always make decisions that we'd prefer to since we're serving a Company as well (thanks to the former owner who sold it to them). 

But enough about that please. Let's stick to the topic at hand.

s


Dev30ils said:


> That's exactly what I'm saying.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Holy Toledo Scott!!

That`s the most I`ve seen you post in about 2 years.

I knew something was missing.

and I agree 110%


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Scott said:


> Just in case these folks bother to read here ...
> 
> I will never, EVER, associate with a company that knowingly associates with DFW.
> 
> EVER.
> 
> So if you are reading here and you associate with DFW, and you care, you may want to reconsider whom you associate with.
> 
> Anyone else feel this way?
> 
> Scott MacDonald
> Tucson, AZ


Scott I agree with you 100%.

I sent them an email last night and basically explained the issues with DFW, all are listed in this thread it was to the point.
LLL did reply and thanked me for the info and basically said they would pass it on to their buyers.
I would suggest others reach out to LLL and voice the facts and maybe they will listen or take this more seriously.


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I would find it very hard to believe that LLL is not aware of this thread. While I don't think they spend a lot of time here this is one of the biggest and most kept up threads on site. Which would leave me to believe they don't care. Sucks cause I needed a few zoo meds and was gonna purchase from them at Tinley. But now not so much.


----------



## Bcs TX

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I would assume there would be "other vendor's" that would match their price....
Just my opinion.....


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Bcs TX said:


> I would assume there would be "other vendor's" that would match their price....
> Just my opinion.....


Most carry exos need 3 zoos to fill rack. Hoping somebody there will have them.


----------



## Alexmenke92

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have been silent for quite some time on this topic, but after about a day or two I have caught up on the happenings at USA dart frog. The reason I came back to read it was to inform you that some group on Facebook was warning about LLL's involvement with DFW's frogs and I wanted to make sure you all knew (it was recent within the past three days, so I figured you guys were on top of it as usual). 
I am positively sickened by how Rick / Dillon have handled the consistent criticism and have continued to ignore everything we have to say. It is truly...saddening. I am not a veteran or a pro at dart frogs...hell I only have 9 tanks and six different species. However, growing up with a strong interest in animal conservation and general love for amphibians and all animals alike, it truly saddens me to see DFW do what they are doing. I thought it was comical for a time, and then I was upset. Now I am sad. Their frogs are out there. I see frogs selling with no lineage information on Facebook. LLL is associating with them. Pet store chains are booming with frogs with horrifying husbandry practices. When did our captive frogs ever deserve this treatment? When did someone wake up one day and say, "Hey, I want to systematically screw up an entire hobby for my own profits at the expense of reputable breeders and naturally beautiful dart frogs alike for my own selfish gain." 
I apologize...but how could you? How could you wake up every day knowing that what you are doing is wrong and be okay with it? I just want to understand...I want it to all go away. Think about it: how many people have been involved with this hobby for thirty or even twenty years? Think of all the hard work these people have put into the hobby to establish pure genetic blood lines and respectable husbandry and care for THE ANIMALS. That should be the primary importance...the ANIMALS. That's why our hobby is good, we genuinely care about our animals and don't shove them into shoeboxes and line breed until they are unrecognizable. I apologize for rambling, but all in all, I can barely stand to watch this develop. I love even the most common morphs like leucs for example and want my own someday. I don't want to have to question whether it is a fine spot, banded, or standard...I want to buy with confidence. And what happens when I want to sell my auratus froglets from Josh's line...will anyone believe me? What happens when the new guy wants to sell his offspring but cannot be new people can no longer be trusted. 
Rick. I don't know if you still read this or care, but please...don't say the things you are saying about "the hobbyists." We are the dart frog business. Your practices go against EVERYTHING anyone has done...years worth of work and hardships. You have NO business having dart frogs. How disrespectful.

Honestly, you don't deserve to work with them at all.


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I emailed LLLREPTILE expressing my concerns with USA dart and I had some good back and forth communications with Scott over there. I don't care how usa frogs markets as it doesn't concern me I don't agree with it but I also don't buy from them. All I care about is that the frogs are healthy and not being mixed with different locals or species.

Scott is talking to them about our concerns (and now his concerns) with this matter and how he as well, disapproves in any mixing of locals or hybrids. I know LLLREPTILE is a respectable company and breed, buys and sells frogs and reptiles and sells them as what they are and is forthcoming with information if you contact him directly.

They in fact do give the information of where they came from by using their trade names. They can't say hey they are from usa darts to everyone (as they are cheaper on their site). That would be stupid for a business to do. They could have lied and not put the trade name but the fact is they did and even told me they did buy some frogs from them. All the frogs from them are listed with the trademark names so as a buyer you can make the choice not to buy them and contact Scott and he would give you that information as I did. I think he must be getting some pretty bad emails rather than emails voicing our concern with the matter at hand I would suggest sending polite educated emails expressing our concerns rather than blanket threats but that's just a suggestion take it as you may. As the saying goes you get further with honey than vinegar. 

My hope would be that with enough pressure usa dart frogs will get enough pressure from buyers to change how they run things and will become good stewards of the species. We can't have to many people breeding as long as quality is bred and sometimes people make mistakes along the way. I know I won't throw stones and my hope is they can do the right thing and conform to the standards of this hobby and eventually be able to educate people the correct way. Scott did tell me that their frogs were extremely healthy and actually older out of the water than many people sell them and packaged superbly. I am at least grateful for the fact they are healthy frogs and the fact that even if we choose not to buy their frogs they are keeping a lot of frogs from being taken from the wild. I hope for the best with the pressure from everyone that things change as our rainforest needs all the help it can get. If we get so upset that people have to lie to sell frogs I dont think that will get us anywhere. It could in fact get people to want wild caught frogs again and that is not a good thing either. I don't think from reading his site that all his frogs are hybrids as it states they are guaranteed to be true to local when you buy the classic (I'm guessing on that trade name) and once DNA is sorted out he knows he could be sued by the retailers re selling the frogs for lying. Change can happen and does happen but it needs to be changed rather than be stopped all together. We need to push for change in a respectable manner rather than taking things to the point where a company goes out of business and every wholesaler ends up with 10,000 frogs of unknown lines. As long as we can keep the lines together we know where they are. We already do that now anyway with some frogs in the hobby now. I know this won't be liked by everyone but the fact is what's done is done we need to try and push change and hope for the best and that's all we really can do. 

I choose not to buy reptiles from Petco or petsmart or 85% of pet shops for that matter as I prefer human relationships and quality care but big business can do good as well with enough political pressure from investors the stock market is king and with enough pressure from us we can force that change. Look at how fast organics have taken off and NON GMO foods are on the rise that's from our voices so I know we can do this as well.

But my point was LLLREPTILE is not the bad guy and is expressing his disapproval to them on our behalf. If I get any other information from them I will post that as well. But I did want to at least relay LLLREPTILE's total honestly with me via email on the subject and I respect that in a breeder and seller as honesty is what we want in this hobby. As the old saying goes "we can make everyone happy sometimes and some people happy all the time!" so I'm sorry if we don't agree on all points but I'm sure we all agree on some such as (quality, honesty, conservation and healthy animals).


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Alex, call Rick up and express your concerns to him. He loves talking on the phone. You can even give yourself 1 party consent and record the conversation. His number is 901-491-9145. Just be patient with him though becsuse when he is in a live conversation he can start to go off course a little bit when he gets nervous and start yelling over you similar to a child throwing a fit. He tends to trainwreck pretty easily when someone attempts to further understand what he is trying to preach.


----------



## oldlady25715

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Alex, your post is well-written and I agree that a resolution would be useful, the problem is that DFW has shown not to be a credible source which favors business interests heavily over longstanding hobby practices. Once they went down that road--how can the gap be resolved?

Unfortunately I may now have to limit or refrain from purchasing my frogs and supplies from the above-mentioned retailer and re commend the same to my contacts. I would also anticipate this will be discussed at the upcoming SCADs meeting.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



planted-tnk-guy said:


> My hope would be that with enough pressure usa dart frogs will get enough pressure from buyers to change how they run things and will become good stewards of the species. We can't have to many people breeding as long as quality is bred and sometimes people make mistakes along the way.



They've had many, many chances to change and become good stewards. Rather than do that, they step up the rhetoric and give hobbyists the finger. Just yesterday, they rebranded their designer frogs to "Rebel" frogs, along with this typical one fingered salute:



usafrogs website said:


> These are the source of the commotion! Nobody knows more about COLOR™ Outside the Lines!™ than we do concerning these captive bred varieties of dart frogs. These frogs are some of the coolest, most unique, upscale, pet frogs in the world, and you can only get them here–nowhere else. *If you are the type of pet owner that hates to follow the pack and loves diversity, then these are for you.
> *


USA Frog - U.S. Dart Frog - REBEL Dart Frogs





planted-tnk-guy said:


> We need to push for change in a respectable manner rather than taking things to the point where a company goes out of business and every wholesaler ends up with 10,000 frogs of unknown lines. As long as we can keep the lines together we know where they are.


Unfortunately, they've changed the names of some of their frogs so many times that the lines have become nearly impossible to track. IMO, they do this purposefully in order keep lineages of their designer frogs obscure.

At this point, I think it's abundantly clear that they have no intentions of change. This they have made clear with nearly every change to their website and business.

I don't think they care one bit about change in terms of what is beneficial to the hobby. I don't think they care about the fate of the hobby and I certainly don't think they care about their frogs. It seems that frogs are just another commodity to them and how their commodity affects our investment and interests in this hobby matters not. 

Change will only occur when it is no longer profitable to continue on the current course ...


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

All I was trying to say in my post was that LLLREPTILE was completely open and honest about the source and is contacting them, whatever that means I don't know. 

As for DFW I don't really care about them as I mentioned. The Tincs I have are from old local lines and I'm more interested in Ranitomeya and other small species anyway. They can't be making very much money at dollar store pricing like that and when you add up overhead and the cost of trademarking it seems thin to me.

I pointed out to LLLREPTILE that their buyer is paying to much if they can't meet or beat the price of the people wholesaling them. As far as I see it as a former buyer myself, I wouldn't stand for a company selling me items and them directly competing with me for cheaper. That to me would be like them giving me as a customer the finger and I would return the favor and move on. 

LLLREPTILE know for sure now, so I will at least give them the chance to stop using them as a supplier but only time can tell that. I care a lot about animals and my environment and sent a well thought out letter and at least did my part to try and put some additional pressure on them. Even though this doesn't affect me directly it affects me indirectly as I enjoy this hobby and the natural world. My little letter might not be much and it might not even help but at least I gave it a go for the cause. I hope for those that this affects more than I you end up with a positive outcome. Either way you have at least made it less profitable for another company like this to spring up so that's good. Keep up the fight


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ricks biggest problem is that to him "The hobby" is "The competiton", which is the ass backwards way of looking at it. When Dillon first opened his mouth about DFW, he was greeted with lots of kindness and genuine advise. Then his turd of a dad had to come jumping in to something that shouldn't have been any of his business honestly. Rick is the investor of the shop but he sure as hell doesnt know how to run it. He sees everyone here as business hurdles when in reality, most of the members here dont care about the $ side of it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> Battle:
> Rep-Cal Herptavite (blue label ) + Rep-Cal Calcium (pink label)
> VS.
> Repashy Calcium Plus
> The frogs pictured below were fed the same type of food and the same type of feeding regimin...all things were held the same. Also, the top frog is the offspring of male/female mint terribilis that look exactly like the bottom frog. In fact, the bottom frog is a parent of the top frog. The top frog (~1.5 years old) and ALL siblings look like it, and have that blue mint color. The bottom frog and mate have the yellow-green color.
> Undisputed WINNER:
> Rep-Cal Herptavite (blue label) and Calcium (pink label).
> Near 100% utilization (no waste), visibly the best frog conformation, and best coloration.
> 
> Rep-Cal Herptivite and the Rep-Cal Calcium beats Repashy Calcium Plus hands down!
> The top frog was supplemented exclusively with Rep-Cal Herptivite multivitamin (blue label), with the Rep-Cal Calcium supplement (pink label) we use and sell.
> 
> The bottom frog (and mate) were fed and supplemented exclusively with Repashy Calcium Plus.
> 
> The Top and Bottom frogs were both supplemented the exact same vitamin A supplement in quantity and frequency..., again, all things the same for the vitamin A.
> 
> In addition to the very high waste fraction of the Repashy Calcium Plus we reported on many times previously, the bottom frog appears to be colorized undesirably by the Repashy Calcium Plus, i.e., the yellow-green cast you see.
> 
> Photographer's Note: The frogs were photographed in different enclosures. The orange ground color of the bottom frog photo is part of that unknown orange stuff in the Repashy Calcium Plus. The brown leaf in the background is a dried magnolia. The top frog is photographed on decaying oak leaves, including some pin oak filler. It is shown eating from a dish, and both frogs were fed the same foods. Unlike the Respashy Calcium Plus, there is never any visible Rep-Cal residue left behind to muddy the enclosure.
> 
> We catch a lot of heat for going against what everybody else uses, so we opted for proof on this one (above). Our supplementation also helps explain why so MANY people comment on the size of our frogs and say, "how do your frogs get so big?", and "how do they get their color when you don't use color enhancers?". Simple, we don't use methylparaben in our fly media, and we don't use Repashy Calcium Plus either.
> 
> We use Rep-Cal Herptavite multivitamin (blue label) and the Calcium (pink label). Buy it from us or anywhere, but use it continuously and be very pleased with the result. This is also a contributing factor as to why our frogs are so brightly and neatly colored, without colorants. For example, you can SEE the subtle color hues in the ISLANDER morph, our Citronella and Auratus El Cope, to name a few, where the winning Rep-Cal supplements always allow the NATURAL coloration to dominate.
> 
> "Also" Notes: The Rep-Cal Herptivite fed frogs are always athletic, have that awesome TOP GUN™ arm profile (strong arms, big forearms) we rave about, and need no dieting whatsoever. The Repashy fed frog is fatter and dumpier, has smooth arms top to bottom, and needs dieting.
> 
> The added Vitamin "A" we used? Repashy's. We have no bias. Their vitamin A works fine, but it too has some of that orange stuff in it. If we eliminate it, does the top mint get more "minty"? We will let you know in a future part 2 of this study.
> 
> (When we sell mint terribilis, and they usually sell out fast, they are all like the top one. Minty blue terribilis!)


Oh Ricky, how you continue to entertain....

So much fail, do we even bother to breakdown this laughable nonsense?

You're such a rebel using a product many people still use. They're decent products, many people still use them. You're not a special flower.

The problem is that in a pathetic attempt to make yourself out to be a special flower, you libel a perfectly good product, that has none of the flaws you claim, cite a laughably flawed "study", and continue to proudly display your astounding ignorance of the scientific process, all the while claiming to be scientists. Seldom has it been more evident that Dillion should have pursued college than in times when you post nonsense like this.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I'd suggest he Place both frogs on an identical background, ideally together in the same photograph next to one of the photographers cards shown below. 

Given rick's history of dishonesty I don't believe that he didn't either A, Alter the photos in or B, select what he thinks is the best and worst examples as a comparison.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

And just think Rick, had you let your son persue a degree/higher education he could actually BE a scientist doing real research on Carotenoids like this one.

http://tulane.edu/sse/eebio/people/cori/upload/Dugas-et-al-2013-2.pdf


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Really Doug. I find it more plausible that there was no experiment. Conducting a real experiment requires a rational mind and discipline. I can't belive there is much of either of those in that household.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I'd suggest he Place both frogs on an identical background, ideally together in the same photograph next to one of the photographers cards shown below.
> 
> Given rick's history of dishonesty I don't believe that he didn't either A, Alter the photos in or B, select what he thinks is the best and worst examples as a comparison.


Not to mention that it appears that N=1

Clue for Ricky ... go to your favorite source (Wikipedia) and find "sample size".


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So the big secret is that they use the same supplements we all used 10 years ago? Even by Rick's standards this is some pretty sketchy crap. It works well enough and I guess it is cheaper. I still can't figure out how the hell is mis-using the Repashy product to get so much waste. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> And just think Rick, had you let your son persue a degree/higher education he could actually BE a scientist doing real research on Carotenoids like this one.
> 
> http://tulane.edu/sse/eebio/people/cori/upload/Dugas-et-al-2013-2.pdf


Hmm, that sounds an awful lot like the "mystery orange stuff" that makes inferior frogs. You know what this thread really needs? A comment from Lotters, that's what. I suspect that the "rebel" tag that Rick is creating is leverage against the possible eventuality that that email sees the light of day.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*
Just a reminder everyone, please try to just stick to facts... the name calling and whatnot is starting to get a bit excessive and we would rather not have to start editing/deleting stuff again.​








Thank you,

*


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> So the big secret is that they use the same supplements we all used 10 years ago? Even by Rick's standards this is some pretty sketchy crap. It works well enough and I guess it is cheaper. I still can't figure out how the hell is mis-using the Repashy product to get so much waste.


Some people still do use it. Sponsors still sell it as well. I actually couldn't find anyone exclusively offering Repashy but I didn't look to hard. I used them at the zoo, it's nothing special or rocket science. I still think, for a number of reasons, repashy is better, and the ONLY thing happening here is a thinly veiled attempt by Rick to separate USA frog from the hobby and appear to be somehow superior. Hell, he is even trashing Mistking users now,....

As for the waste fraction nonsense, With additional consideration, I suspect, like so much other stuff that Rick writes, it is just made up nonsense. it is an excellent product with very little waste. But as Allen stated previously, he is happy not to have any association with them at all. I'd love to hear his thoughts on Ricks science project though.



> You know what this thread really needs? A comment from Lotters, that's what. I suspect that the "rebel" tag that Rick is creating is leverage against the possible eventuality that that email sees the light of day.


That will be happening, soon, I can gaurantee you that. Just got the word last night. But, Lötters has extended an even better offer.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Their current rebranding and renaming effort seems to be aimed at intentionally blurring the lines between pure morphs, line bred morphs and frankenfrog morphs:

*Quasar *
III & IV – Classic, 
I& II- Designer
V – Rebel
*Apollo*
I – Classic
II, III &IV – Designer
V – Rebel

*Lunar Blue* 
I – Classic
II – Designer
III - Rebel 

*Eclipse*
I - Classic
II – Designer
III – Rebel

*Neutrino* 
I – Classic
II – Designer
III - Rebel

Of course, if we just give it a day or two the names will change again ...


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> That will be happening, soon, I can gaurantee you that. Just got the word last night. But, Lötters has extended an even better offer.


Thanks for the persistence on this Doug. I had exchanged a few emails with him very early on, but at that time he seemed quite reluctant to enter the fray.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> That will be happening, soon, I can gaurantee you that. Just got the word last night. But, Lötters has extended an even better offer.


So...very...very....very...happy...



edwardsatc said:


> Their current rebranding and renaming effort seems to be aimed at intentionally blurring the lines between pure morphs, line bred morphs and frankenfrog morphs...


I swear, no potential customer could be following the development of their business model closer than I am and I still can't put a fine point on this. 

Classic - Standard hobby locality/importations/breeds but re-branded with commercial names?

Designer - "Classic" frogs, but linebred for specific traits (which they've condemned in the past)? Specifically stated as not cross-breeds, except the have their own definition for the term cross-breeds, so that could potentially mean the product of any two frogs of the same species?

Rebel - Crossbreeds and Hybrids? They've specifically elsewhere condenmed hybrids, but then they define "hybrid" as sterile so I'm not really sure I know what's going on here. I assume they are just crossbred tincs, but if that's the case then how are they different from the Designer frogs, and if the Designer frogs aren't crossbreeds, but just line-bred frogs then why do they tack on their "a tinc is a tinc is a tinc" disclaimer at the end of that page. 

Also, I noticed the "Whatever things are true..." quote is no longer at the bottom of these pages. My guess is that whenever they tried to include that statement on the same page as ones like the following, the computer started smoking:

*QUASAR V frogs are amazing! Their coloration is unique and while many call it a Sipaliwini and we tend to agree, we had to give it another name. The name QUASAR fits because the coloration & pattern looks like some images taken by the Hubble Telescope.*

As I watch the site make slight changes in response to criticism, it's very clear that the goal here is to spread mis-information, but in a way that avoids responsibility. It's just a drag because it's so transparent. "WE didn't say this frog was from any locality that you would associate with the term "Sipaliwini", but that's what it is and at half the cost." I can also see how they are setting up with the whole parallel hobbies angle (legit hobby/designer hobby) but of course that completely discounts the fact that one of those hobbies pretty much torpedoes the other.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Thanks for the persistence on this Doug. I had exchanged a few emails with him very early on, but at that time he seemed quite reluctant to enter the fray.


And he still is. I don't expect him to pick up sword and shield to weigh in here, but he does recognize that as they continue to seriously misuse his work and the work of his coauthors, that lending his voice in some capacity to that aspect of the debate is a responsible and useful course of action.


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> That will be happening, soon, I can gaurantee you that. Just got the word last night. But, Lötters has extended an even better offer.


Ohhh happy Daaaaayyyyysss!!!!!!!!!!! I am so excited, thank you Doug 


As for his "Supplementation Experiment" Is it just me or does it simply look like Frog A fed with herptitite that they are promoting as better color is simply younger and standard example of a juvenile mint terribilis? The Frog B fed Repashy looks like what I would expect for a mature mint terribilis frog with that standard chunky bulldog arms and body while the first picture looks like he still has some growing to do. Mind you I don’t have Mint terribilis but they are on my wish list so I’ve been stalking pictures of them and if I had my choice between which frog I would pick I’d pick Frog B. (Look at them athletic arms on Frog B vs Frog A, wowza! Even based on DFW's fascination with strong arms I'm not sure why they ignore that criteria in this scenario)

Especially since in Rick’s description Frog B is a parent of Frog A, so clearly these frogs are NOT the same age. Frog B is a mature breeder and they said Frog A is 1.5 years old. Based on my understanding, terribilis are slower maturing than other species and they may take up to 12-18+ months to be mature and two years to start breeding so to me it seems frog A is still not of breeding age. C’mon people! You can’t make any valid conclusions based on a picture comparing one adult frog on one color background against a juvenile frog in a different color background…gahhhh

I propose a section called “Lets Design a (Decent) Experiment” since it seems Rick reads this so maybe I can help him out here…

General Proposal Knocked Out in a Couple of Minutes.

Use multiple numbers of age-matched tadpoles/froglets from the same parents for both the Herptavite and Repashy comparisons. When the adult frogs lay eggs split them among the two groups. Got 8 eggs? 4 are split to the Herptavite section and the other 4 will get rephasy. Keep track of the date they are laid and keep repeating this process until each group has as many samples as manageable or produced by parents. For convenience sake lets say 18 each?

Raise all the tadpoles the same until the start morphing

Once they start eating flies get ready for experimentation!

Be sure your supplements are both new and fresh, It wouldn’t be fair to be using old supplements and trying to compare against new ones….

When collecting fruit flies don’t designate one culture for group A and another culture for group B. Be sure both groups get the same flies, even if that means combining the flies collected from 2 or 3 cultures to get enough. Combine all flies into one bag and uniformly mix, then split the flies into the two groups to get dusted with either Repashy or Herptavite.
Everybody gets feed same, time, frequency, amounts.

Periodically determine timepoints to compare color, size, etc of froglets. Say every 1 month, 2 months, something and photo every frog on the same color background (like the sheet of white you already use to take picture of your frog lines on) with some kind of ruler or scale measurement in the picture to determine size of frog and use same lighting/flash settings, iso speed, camera settings, etc EVERYTIME. 

Because you kept track of which group of eggs every frog came from try to compare between those frogs that were laid in the same batches because then the environmental/dietary factors that may vary from the parents between different hatches will be minimalized.

There are software programs that analyze images for color intensity, etc. I’ve used software designed to measure and compare the intensity difference between green fluorescence in a series of images in which all you have to do is outline the area you want to measure and it gives you a number value you can use to average and calculate values among all the other images in the same group and compare against the other group. 
For simplicity sake and to avoid having to find or learn specialized software to get good objective data maybe lets find a less technical solution? How about instead they do a blind trial just like those commercials on tv asking people to taste two unlabeled colas and see which they like better and then discover if they can tell the difference between pepsi or coke?

For example. If the first batch of eggs had 8 eggs laid on the same day then 4 frogs developed for each group A and Group B. Take the pictures for these frogs and give them a code number on the back to keep track of which treatment of vitamin they had and which date the frog hatched. Have a “blind” helper who doesn’t know which pile of photos came from treatment a or treatment b be the judge and randomly place one photo from group a and another from group b side by side and let the “blind” helper choose the more vivid frog of the two pictures that are the sibling frogs of the same age but fed two different supplements. This isn’t great because the choice of the helper is subjective to which picture they like better but it is a whole lot better than how the experiment is set up on their page. After each comparison keep track of which picture “won” the side-by-side trial and then at the end of all comparisons tally up how many times pictures from group A were picked and how many time pictured from group B were picked. Repeat this for all other batches of eggs.

On his page he says “Undisputed WINNER”. Based on what? His two pictures which his personal bias decided he liked one better than another? 
This leads to the important part. STATISTICS! Take all of these numerous values you have and calculate to see if there is a significant difference. Here is a website that does it for you even! GraphPad Software

Finally, after you have numerous comparisons (you can do a power analysis to figure out how many samples you really need to make a significant conclusion. To play it safe lets us say 18 in each treatment) then after the blind study where statistical analysis shows a significant difference between the two groups (i.e. p<.05) then you can say, YES there is a difference between groups. Then you repeat the whole experiment again and make sure it replicates 

As to his continued assertion that hybrids can’t breed? Pull your definition out of the last century please. You need an example? Just look at plants, not just interSPECIES hybrids but interGENIC hybrids. Go to an orchid show. It will blow your definition out of the water. One of the latest things I remember when I last read his page it was that to essentially say that to scientists “hybrid=mule”…seriously? 

If you are going to try to “play scientist” you better at least have a rough idea how to go about it or be willing to learn. I’m not saying that all frog breeders need an extensive background and understanding of science to sell frogs, but THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO PASS THEMSELVES OFF AS SCIENTISTS GENERATING USEFUL DATA AND EXPERIMENTS!!!

The ridiculous thing is that Rick clearly has no clue on how to conduct/read/talk science but he keeps trying to play with the big boys and the more he talks the dumber he sounds. 

This brings to mind one of my favorite quotes of "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt".


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



allegedhuman said:


> As for his "Supplementation Experiment" Is it just me or does it simply look like Frog A fed with herptitite that they are promoting as better color is simply younger and standard example of a juvenile mint terribilis? The Frog B fed Repashy looks like what I would expect for a mature mint terribilis frog with that standard chunky bulldog arms and body while the first picture looks like he still has some growing to do. Mind you I don’t have Mint terribilis but they are on my wish list so I’ve been stalking pictures of them and if I had my choice between which frog I would pick I’d pick Frog B. (Look at them athletic arms on Frog B vs Frog A, wowza! Even based on DFW's fascination with strong arms I'm not sure why they ignore that criteria in this scenario)


Good point about frog A possibly being a juvenile. Personally, I think frog A has a sickly looking color, but that may be biased by personal preference. 



allegedhuman said:


> Especially since in Rick’s description Frog B is a parent of Frog A, so clearly these frogs are NOT the same age. Frog B is a mature breeder and they said Frog A is 1.5 years old. Based on my understanding, terribilis are slower maturing than other species and they may take up to 12-18+ months to be mature and two years to start breeding so to me it seems frog A is still not of breeding age. C’mon people! You can’t make any valid conclusions based on a picture comparing one adult frog on one color background against a juvenile frog in a different color background…gahhhh


Is the dress blue and black or is it white and gold?



allegedhuman said:


> …
> This leads to the important part. STATISTICS! Take all of these numerous values you have and calculate to see if there is a significant difference. Here is a website that does it for you even! GraphPad Software
> Finally, after you have numerous comparisons (you can do a power analysis to figure out how many samples you really need to make a significant conclusion. To play it safe lets us say 18 in each treatment) then after the blind study where statistical analysis shows a significant difference between the two groups (i.e. p<.05) then you can say, YES there is a difference between groups. Then you repeat the whole experiment again and make sure it replicates


Excellent outline for an experimental design. You left out one crucial element … share the data and results! Of course, we can be fairly confident that Mr. Phenotype will claim that the data and results of such an experiment are “trade secrets”. He doesn’t seem to understand that those of us who are real scientists are expected to publish these things. If one fails to back up conclusions with reproducible methods, data, and results … it ain’t science. It may as well have never happened.

As for statistics, after numerous attempts to educate Mr. Phenotype on “statistical significance”, I’ve given up. I think that he a) is too ignorant (mathematically or scientifically) to understand, b) can’t be bothered by such pesky minutia, or c) is just making it all up as he goes! I vote for all three.



allegedhuman said:


> As to his continued assertion that hybrids can’t breed? Pull your definition out of the last century please. You need an example? Just look at plants, not just interSPECIES hybrids but interGENIC hybrids. Go to an orchid show. It will blow your definition out of the water. One of the latest things I remember when I last read his page it was that to essentially say that to scientists “hybrid=mule”…seriously?


Comical isn’t it? He’s been told countless times that his outdated definition doesn’t stand up to current understanding and knowledge. But, acknowledging that would turn his entire business plan upside down.


----------



## ivas

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



allegedhuman said:


> I propose a section called “Lets Design a (Decent) Experiment” since it seems Rick reads this so maybe I can help him out here…


I wrote an abstract for the experiment presented on their website:

"Many of the claims on our website are outlandish and unsubstantiated. In order to trick people into believing us, we designed an experiment based on a proprietary scientific method (TM). Unlike "professionals," we are a business and are therefore able to fabricate whatever data suits our needs. In this experiment, frog supplements were compared using one comparison (N=1) and results were based on judging criteria that we will not share, because, well, legally we don't have to. Based on our findings, it is UNDISPUTED that the Sasquatch is not affected by global climate change!"

I have been in this hobby since the pink and blue supplements were all that were available (ten years ago). I have since switched my supplements exclusively to Repashy. I haven't observed any difference in the health, color, or fore-arm size of any of the seven frogs I have had since then. In the spirit of BACI (before-after-control-impact) study design, I compared some older photos of frogs with newer photos, and I did not notice any differences in coloration, based on simply looking at the photos (P = 1.00). Based on this, Rick's results are, in fact, DISPUTED!


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Excellent outline for an experimental design. You left out one crucial element … share the data and results! Of course, we can be fairly confident that Mr. Phenotype will claim that the data and results of such an experiment are “trade secrets”. He doesn’t seem to understand that those of us who are real scientists are expected to publish these things. If one fails to back up conclusions with reproducible methods, data, and results … it ain’t science. It may as well have never happened.


Durrr, of course. Thanks, I should've spelled that part out too. Should we get together a panel of "Scientists of Dendroboard" so when he does get all his data collected, analyzed and written up we have a pool of reviewers to choose from to review his work in order to be accepted for publication? I feel we would have quite a few reviewers willing to take the time to critique his manuscript 

Reviewer #1 Major concerns: Have you ever taken a biology class and are you familiar with scientific reading comprehension, statistics, experimental design and or even how to interpret articles written within the field?

Reviewer #1 Minor Concerns: /&%# Error. Could not load list of minor concerns due to the innumerable examples identified overloaded our submission website and therefore could not be displayed. Display Error Message "I've seen 5th grade science fair projects more rigorous than this...and even this is insulting 5th graders" End error Message *&$%#@ 

Editor's Decision: Rejection of Article and Ridicule by the scientific community



ivas said:


> I wrote an abstract for the experiment presented on their website:
> 
> "Many of the claims on our website are outlandish and unsubstantiated. In order to trick people into believing us, we designed an experiment based on a proprietary scientific method (TM). Unlike "professionals," we are a business and are therefore able to fabricate whatever data suits our needs. In this experiment, frog supplements were compared using one comparison (N=1) and results were based on judging criteria that we will not share, because, well, legally we don't have to. Based on our findings, it is UNDISPUTED that the Sasquatch is not affected by global climate change!"


So VERY, VERY, VERY like. Now to just find the "Journal of Unscientific Studies" for them to submit to...because even the "Journal of Negative Results" would reject this abstract you wrote for them, 'cuz even they have standards 

Don't forget...There is no reason for them to have to have declare any type of conflicts in interest between their research findings and business interests because they are "businessmen-scientists", not "scientists-businessmen". Very important distinction there...


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sorry I've been away everyone; I'm way behind on the thread. I got a friend that is going through a difficult time that has kinda distracted me from the hobby/forum recently. From what I've skimmed, the case against them just seems to get stronger!

I will try to get caught up and weigh in soon...
And Doug you have a PM 

Sincerely
Dave


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The guy had 2 frogs eat different supplements and the 2 frogs look a little different, wow that should not have happened....that is crazy good info. I wonder if I got 2 frogs if they would look a little different from one another...no way, crazy for me to even think it.

Rick do 50 of each and lets see if the entire group is a different color than the other, do that for say 3 - 4 years, then do their offspring for another 3 - 4 years, come back to us in 6 - 8 years and give us your findings, we will save you a seat.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> The guy had 2 frogs eat different supplements and the 2 frogs look a little different, wow that should not have happened....that is crazy good info. I wonder if I got 2 frogs if they would look a little different from one another...no way, crazy for me to even think it.
> 
> Rick do 50 of each and lets see if the entire group is a different color than the other, do that for say 3 - 4 years, then do their offspring for another 3 - 4 years, come back to us in 6 - 8 years and give us your findings, we will save you a seat.


So basically supplements cause "polymorphism" (Rick's favorite word)? ...And that's bad? 

...Groundbreaking stuff from this exhaustive 2 frog study. I can't wait to see what other "discoveries" come from their "lab" (frogmill, IMO) 

But seriously, how do you rule out natural variation in a 2 frog study, with frogs possibility of different ages, photographed under different conditions, (Notice in the top pic the substrate is reflecting way more light at possibly a different angle, which would probably interact with the pigment structures in the frogs skin differently then in the second)? 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Usafrog: 
*Have a look at the ingredients in rapashy cal + and rep cal (blue and pink label), and then copy them into here [sic] and show me the differences that make repcal a better choice.

No thank you, we are not much for spending time finding out why a simple food product made by someone else doesn't work, but we are concerned with finding one that does work. The later is real life use, not lab time. *

Is that even legal to say on a commercial site? He just said they don't work (liable?)...

Oh but then admits it wasn't really a scientific study...

*Do that and I might develop a hint of respect for your "study".

No problem there, it was never a "study". *

Then claims they have "proof"...

*We catch a lot of heat for going against what everybody else uses, so we opted for proof on this one (above).*

And...
*Considering their waste fraction, Repashy Calcum Plus is most likely the most expensive (and perhaps the most profitable), and least effective supplement by volume there is, so why do peope buy it? They don't there is a viable alternative and Repashy marketing via the chat boards where anybody can be anyone. 
*

So it isn't possible that higher quality ingredients just happen not to stick as well, and can't possibly make up for that by being higher quality? ...And other supplement companies might use cheaper stuff because it sticks better and is easier to store/work with even if it doesn't work as good? Oh and saying it is the least effective by volume with no real proof other then anecdotal observation and insinuating Repashy is using shills with no evidence? ...Classy, like that tinfoil hat you are probably sporting. 

Then... *"EVERYBODY who uses or used Repashy Calcium Plus knows there is a ton of waste. We simply stated what every pet frog owner who used Repashy Calcium Plus already knows."* 

Rick please don't speak for me when you can't keep your own BS straight. I actually don't have that much waste, and have higher confidence in the ingredients and the research behind the product. I got nothing against the pink and blue as it seemed to work decently enough for years, but seems like you are grasping at straws here, and speaking out of turn when you speak for an entire hobby that you've claimed to not even be a part of.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> Comments or Questions: Your rapashy [sic] vs repcal study has no sceintific [sic] basis...
> 
> True, these are just our observations from the largest captive bred dart frog population in the country and maybe the world. While that may not mean anything in the lab, we think it does in the real world. Thus, this "battle" is rooted in plain, old-fashioned, common sense...an ability to know what "works" and what doesn't...what you see is what you get..., etc. We don't believe a scientific inquiry into a simple product comparison is always needed. For example, we suspect Charmin bath tissue is stronger than the generic brands, but we have no intention to test our opinion in the lab.
> 
> your sample size was one and color enhancement has no direct correlation to frogs [sic] health.
> 
> We posted one frog, but our sample size was hundreds of frogs a few years ago, and thousands now being fed the proper, better supplement, Rep-Cal Herptavite from the beginning. Still, we hope you are not suggesting we don't know which supplement is better. This was not an overnight battle. Our careful frog rearing and observation is always ongoing and has been for years. It is our policy, mission, and plan, to continually improve everything we do. If a better supplement than Rep-Cal Herptavite comes along, we will switch. (AGAIN, we get nothing from Rep-Cal and have absolutely no association with them other than using their products.)
> 
> On frog health, here again, we believe common sense prevails. The RepCal Herptavite fed frogs historically look healthier to us than the others we fed Repashy Calcium Plus in the past. This has proven true many times. Admittedly, it is appearance, activity, alertness, strength, and beauty, etc., that we considered, but those are some of the pet owners criterion too. The point was Rep-Cal Herptavite gives vibrant colors without the color pellets and the enormous waste in the Repashy Calcium Plus. (As a quid pro quo, you said, "color enhancement has no direct correlation to frogs health", have you done a study on this? If so, what was your sample size, etc...?)
> 
> And the "red stuff" is likely just carotenoids.
> 
> Yes, thank you. We know there is some of that in there, but there is a lot more stuff in the high waste of the Repashy Calcium Plus. How can it be waste if it is a carotenoid? If the stuff is too big for a frog to eat comfortably and ends up on the leaf litter of the enclosure to where they walk and hop and poo, we call it waste. The question is, why is it so wasteful and why is it even in there if it is not used? Filler perhaps? Milling powders is expensive. Maybe they are just keeping their costs down and making a product people use more quickly to sell more.
> 
> At the most basic level, this is more a question of what was used and what was wasted. The amount used compared to the cost tells us the Repashy Calcium Plus is more like gold than a food supplement for frogs. Based on thousands of frogs and hundreds of breeding pairs, Repashy Calcium Plus is the loser of the battle by far.
> 
> Have a look at the ingredients in rapashy cal + and rep cal (blue and pink label), and then copy them into here [sic] and show me the differences that make repcal a better choice.
> 
> We already know the truth, and we don't waste time proving why a simple food product supplement made by someone else doesn't work, or why one is better. We operate in the usefulness of the information, and hope others will as well. This is real life use, not lab time. For example, does a Ferrari California corner better than a pickup truck fitted with the same engine? Should we test that with two hundred cars and trucks to be sure, or can we rely on common sense and what is observable in the two vehicles. Common sense (i.e., common knowledge) is the basis for scientific inquiry.
> 
> The difference is shown in our frogs. The world now knows our frogs are bigger, more healthy, naturally gorgeous, and stronger than a LOT of others out there, and we thought we would share some of what we know helps/works. We give God the glory for the creature, while we produce them in abundance which means even the breeders are top notch and the colors are amazing. We prefer the actual results in hundreds and thousands of frogs. Rep-cal Herptavite wins!
> 
> Do that and I might develop a hint of respect for your "study".
> 
> No problem there, it was never a "study". It was a product comparison, sorry for your confusion, but we said it was a "battle" and nothing more. EVERYBODY who uses or used Repashy Calcium Plus knows there is a ton of waste. We simply stated what every pet frog owner who used Repashy Calcium Plus already knows. Considering their waste fraction, Repashy Calcium Plus is most likely the most expensive (and perhaps the most profitable), and least effective supplement by volume there is, so why do people buy it?
> 
> You are looking for a hint, when we are telling you the entire truth? Are you asking for someone to convince you with information to prove the truth, otherwise you won't believe? We leave the believing part to you, and ask you this: Do you believe Jesus the Christ is the son of God and the savior of the world from the penalty of sin and death? (Hint: The New Testament of the Bible is full of proofs for you on that one, but is it enough for you to believe?)
> 
> BTW, how many frogs do you raise and sell, and which supplement do you use? We discovered and know for a fact a lot of people posting as authorities on the chat boards don't even own or care for frogs, are there to drum up controversy and link traffic to sell ad space, or they are the insiders/managers of some of the big frog sellers out there competing with us. Talk about built in bias, yikes!


Some of the best comedy gold out of this man comes when he feels like he has to defend his psuedoscience. Posted here for now, without commentary, because no doubt, as he often does, he will realize how far he has shoved his foot in his mouth and delete the entire tirade and claim it never happened like so many times before.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> still, we hope you are not suggesting we don't know which supplement is better.


*That is exactly what we are saying!*


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

to me, the first thing that made my LMAO was this phrase:

We posted one frog, but our sample size was hundreds of frogs a few years ago

haven't they been into frogs for maybe just a little more than 2 years ??
they sure did that breeding,growing,testing,comparing in a short time frame :-D

i trully think he believes himself for real.. I think time must pass diferently then the rest of the world with certain people.. I have a nut case sister inlaw like that, goes out with a guy for two weeks, and tells us it's been a year ????


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh and the irony of this......



USA Frog said:


> [sic]


If we decided to include a [sic] after every spelling or grammatical error you've made over the past two years Rick.....

The [ , ] , S , I and C keys on my keyboard would be worn thin.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> *That is exactly what we are saying!*


Actually, I believe that he does know which supplement is better. The truth just doesn't fit his agenda, so he came up with this crap instead. Then again, I don't claim to understand the enigmatic brain of Rick and only he know the truth (even if he denies it).

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

And lets make one thing abundantly clear, while their science is laughable, the real problem is Rick's continued defamation of a good company that has always been honest and supportive of the hobby. Allen Repashy and Repashy Ventures are the exact opposite of what USA Frog is. They represent integrity and honesty and transparency. Perhaps that is why Rick makes them such a target and considers them such a threat. Rick is basically trying to deflect attention from his own lack of those three characteristics by projecting them on others.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



FroggyKnight said:


> Actually, I believe that he does know which supplement is better. The truth just doesn't fit his agenda, so he came up with this crap instead. Then again, I don't claim to understand the enigmatic brain of Rick and only he know the truth (even if he denies it).
> 
> John


Probably a good point.

Actually, here is the honest truth, from a purely objective standpoint, none of us has done a study which shows either product to be better(that I know of). 

RICK is defaming a hobby favorite, in a pathetic and transparent attempt to convince novices and unsuspecting customers, that somehow, USA Frog has superior knowledge and understanding(they don't). It's smoke and mirrors to try to make them look better. Sadly it works, it a sleezy marketing technique designed to create brand separation between one product or company and another. Its predatory and victimizes consumers for a quick buck.

That is the real problem with it. Use a product, recommend it, whatever, but don't resort to defamation in a thinly veiled attempt to make yourself look better than you are. Again, you are not a special flower....


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Use a product, recommend it, whatever, but don't resort to defamation in a thinly veiled attempt to make yourself look better than you are. Again, you are not a special flower....


Nice mental imagery, but sadly not everyone gets to be their first choice to become Daffodils/Narcissus flowers.

I am actually a bit surprised by all of the massive redacting/backtracking and double talk going on in response to our criticism about their definitely not “undisputed” comparison of Repashy and Herptavite.

A solid 13 or more paragraphs trying to explain how this was a “product comparison” or a “battle” and not a “study”? Who calls a product comparison a “battle” and expect to be taken seriously? Unless you are talking about the Battle of Bunker Hill or “Epic Rap Battles” on Youtube when you say “battle” as another way to describe a product comparison I am too busy giggling to take anything very seriously because I am now imagining the intro to a video for “Epic Rap Battles of History… Repashy vs Herptavite...BEGIN!” 

…uhhhh...ummmh…crap. I can’t rap…

O.k, now that I re-realized why I never succeeded in a career in the music industry I guess I should return to what I am somewhat decent at…Science! Oh good, Rick is there to help explain science to me too! 

*“Common sense (i.e., common knowledge) is the basis for scientific inquiry”*

… hmm, I’ve met a lot of people and can tell you common knowledge is not the same as common sense and that those two are definitely not the same as scientific inquiry since scientific inquiry is a process but let us limit this to how Rick defines things and just move on to what he also said which is…

*“We don't believe a scientific inquiry into a simple product comparison is always needed” *

Ok. So Rick says that Common sense and common knowledge are the basis for scientific inquiry, BUT that scientific inquiry is not necessary for a product comparison, Therefore, based on Rick’s definitions, common sense is also not necessary for a simple product comparison… ergo we can simplify this logical syllogism to conclude…

Their simple product comparison that Herptavite is the undisputed winner of this battle based was not necessarily based on common sense, common knowledge, scientific inquiry or any other objective criteria other than whatever they feel like suspecting (It was Mr. Green with the candlestick in the kitchen and he escaped in a Ferrari California but unfortunately left a trail of Charmin bath tissue behind as he escaped so was quickly caught… I KNOW IT!)

Adding more words in an explanation does not make you seem smarter, you just talk in circles and actually contradict yourself within just a few paragraphs of yourself man as once again shown in this example…

For a further breakdown of this “battle. Initially before all of these edits it seemed like Rick was just saying frogs had better color when fed Herptavite, now he is also claiming the frogs are healthier too and THAT is the criteria for calling Herptavite the undisputed winner! 

*“Herptavite fed frogs historically look healthier to us than the others we fed Repashy Calcium Plus in the past. This has proven true many times. Admittedly, it is appearance, activity, alertness, strength, and beauty, etc., that we considered,”*

Proof is a pretty powerful word in science and Rick seems to confuse proof and faith in his explanations. Plus superficial criteria such as beauty and appearance do not equal health! When asking about health, why not break it down to the ultimate question. How does the life expectancy of the frogs differ from other frogs?…and do not say you know how long your frogs live because they’ve only had frogs for what? 3-5 years and the AVERAGE lifespan is 10-20… 

Or how resistant are the frogs against infection from parasites and disease? Recover from injuries? Using “health” and “beauty” synonymously definitely is not accurate.

Finally to give you a tip Rick, you heavily edited the top of the page before the two pictures of your frogs in response to comments about how unscientific the study and you responded to criticism that,

*“it was never a "study". It was a product comparison, sorry for your confusion, but we said it was a "battle" and nothing more.”*

You overlooked a section and forgot to edit BELOW the pictures because it still says…

*“Their vitamin A works fine, but it too has some of that orange stuff in it. If we eliminate it, does the top mint get more "minty"? We will let you know in a future part 2 of this study.”*

Looks like you missed removing all references to *“this study”* when you were rewriting history…Hope it doesn’t take too long for you to read this and fix that error after I point it out so we don't keep getting confused by what you originally wrote incorrectly. Timer starts at 7:50 on March 13th, ready, ready…NOW!

Anyways after mentioning rewriting history, now for me to get back to some awesome “EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORY…” A couple of my personal favorites are “Dr Seuss vs Shakespeare” and “Einstein vs Stephen Hawking” but I am waiting for the Repashy vs Herptavite coming soon…


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh yea baby, this dude`s a keeper.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I swear that post was written by Dave. Allegedhuman, you've had some beautiful posts lately. Thank you!

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Allegedhuman is definitely a wonderful new asset.

Had a nice chat with a friend in the hobby who offered a fresh perspective that I'm disappointed I didn't consider.

Basically it boils down to this:

Not being endorsed by USA Frog is a good thing. Repashy is actually better off without their endorsement.

Think of it like the Picture of Jihad John in his pirates cap. The Pirates organization, had to release a press statement saying they were sick over him appearing in their gear.

The last thing any company, organization, or individual wants is an endorsement or involvement with USA Frog.


----------



## Ed

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Okay how much information have I provided including the references on the topic of beta carotene, pigmentation and vitamin A conversion on this forum yet in a clear example of a person who has no clue on what they are talking about none of it ends up in this thread... 

As an example, the claim that eliminating the orange component will change the color of a mint terribilis when they are using a supplement that only contains an orange carotenoid specifically beta carotene? Its kind of hard to claim they are eliminating the orange end of the carotenoids when the supplement they are using only contains that color of a pigment. In addition, the green of a mint terribilis is provided by a combination of light reflected by iridiopores (blue) and yellow carotenoids and pterins to make the green. Given that the iridopores cannot be dietarily modified the addition of yellow/orange carotenoids at best is going to shift the color to less green and more yellow and this is the only possible outcome when using beta carotene as the sole carotenoid in the diet. 
This is also before we get to the issue that the ability of anurans to convert beta carotene to vitamin A is getting shown to be zero. See for example 
Mccomb, Alejandra. 2010. Evaluation of Vitamin A Supplementations for Captive Amphibian Species. Thesis

This data puts some of his claims in a dubious light as the frogs cannot convert beta carotene to vitamin A, it means that there those frogs are probably deficient in vitamin A unless it is being supplied in some other fashion and if they are indeed deficient in vitamin A, then they are likely to have reduced immunocompetancy as well as decreases in other important metabolic processes. Now this may not become immediately apparent as the tadpole diet can supply nutritional reserves of vitamin A (carotenoid conversion or some pellets or flakes) which can carry the animal through a number of months but once these reserves run out symptoms of hypovitaminosis can be detected. This was the pattern seen in Anaraxys baxteri and some other captive anurans in zoological institutions which lead part of the charge showing that beta carotene as the sole source of vitamin A is a problem. 

I would suggest people use the available science proof against those kinds of claims and cite the sources. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ed you are the perfect advisor in this BATTLE. Doug is the ambassador, communicating with Lotters. What a great war! It is like Game of Frog Thrones.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> Ed you are the perfect advisor in this BATTLE. Doug is the ambassador, communicating with Lotters. What a great war! It is like Game of Frog Thrones.


Ambassador to Lotters, but otherwise I'm pretty sure I'm just an A-hole.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Oh and the irony of this......
> 
> 
> 
> If we decided to include a [sic] after every spelling or grammatical error you've made over the past two years Rick.....
> 
> The [ , ] , S , I and C keys on my keyboard would be worn thin.


This is interesting and I feel speaks to where/why we've come into conflict with Rick and the Usafrog agenda...

Ok we have a person here that is willing to take their personal anecdotal observations and label them as science, even though we have a lot of evidence for why it isn't science, (including dissent from the actual scientist that wrote the "bible" according to Rick). We have a person pushing an agenda on us after we spoke out against it and warned them of the reaction they would get if they went that direction. We have examples of them telling us what is "right" in the face of all our arguments, and very few people willing to support them in public at least. We I believe have caught them in at least one very blatant lie. We have them trashing other vendors, pushing conspiracy theories and basically one family (who hasn't been in this business very long and claimed to not even be part of the hobby) just telling us all what we are all doing wrong and how it should be done.

There is more, but consider all that, the other stuff you've read/remember and then this wiki explanation on "sic"...

*The Latin adverb sic ("thus"; in full: sic erat scriptum, "thus was it written")[1] inserted immediately after a quoted word or passage, indicates that the quoted matter has been transcribed exactly as found in the source text, complete with any erroneous or archaic spelling, surprising assertion, faulty reasoning, or other matter that might otherwise be taken as an error of transcription.*

Now I admit the meaning contains what some might view as a "cop out" for Rick, and I can't prove it, but when I consider all the above and all the other stuff and the red text in the context of the way Rick acts and speaks about things, (that in my personal opinion constitutes "evidence") I wonder if someone doesn't have a god complex, Narcissistic personality disorder, and/or distorted view of reality

I can't prove it, but I have my opinions and my reasons for them. I "leave the believing part up to you" 

But if you see at least some of what I see, ask: 
Why even chance buying frogs from someone that might be that prone to believing their own BS, in the minds of many already demonstrating a propensity to lie and/or bend/omit the truth, push it on others as "science", and also seems more then willing to use what many consider distasteful marketing tactics? 

Can one man or one family that seems (if you believe) that self righteous be trusted to do right by you and others when they have their own little reality where everything they say and do is what is truly right for us all?

Can you in good conscience risk supporting them when what they do may be putting so many others at risk in various ways all for the sake of saving a few bucks on some frogs?

Do you believe in the word according to Rick? 

Or...

Would you be better served putting your trust and faith in a diverse group of experienced hobbyists that have found cause to band together in opposition of the word of Rick, and the philosophy of Usafrog?

In my opinion (based on the evidence), I feel Rick is inclined to invoke "science" however improperly as long as it suits his agenda, and "common sense" how ever improperly for the same agenda, but "leave the believing part up to you"


----------



## Judy S

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

There is no such thing as "Climate Change"....


----------



## SLOANMAN

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

there adult Patricia says unlimited stock available. so they have billions of Patricia's I guess


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



SLOANMAN said:


> there adult Patricia says unlimited stock available. so they have billions of Patricia's I guess


At this point, not even surprised. Truth and accuracy are not two words that will ever describe this company. They just want 'MOAR FROGZ!' Never mind the fact that they're just sitting on that stock with no where to move them too. MOAR FROGZ means they can advertise about their stock size. I'm a zookeeper, and take care of animals for a living, and I can guarantee, with the limited amount of help they have their to take care of those frogs, shit's getting neglected. Those are not well cared for animals.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I volunteered to help out with the darts at a zoo over here for a while too so I could talk with them about frogs and learn some more stuff. They claimed to have 800 but that number seemed high. I agree with you big time. Can you imagine how burned out those kids are by now from having to make that many fly cultures every day and all of the other labor involved?! I know when I was a kid, I would have thought that would be cool for about 1 week and then said F it lol. My collection floats around 50 frogs including froglets and thats enough for me.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Like I have said before. That place, if you believe all their lies, would be a logistical nightmare. I get tired of making cultures for 28 frogs. Making them for what, their now supposed 8k+. That would be a 40 a week job. Properly cleaning cages/feeding? Another full time job. Editing the website every time an error is pointed out from DB? There's another full time job.
This is a place run by a nut job and a bunch of kids. It's no wonder they have no time for real science or testing their animals.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I never did and never will believe they have as many frogs as they say.
Pretty much feel the same about all their "golly gee awesome look how big" reviews


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

just out of curiosity !! any news on when we get to see what Lotter had to say  or is it best to keep that back until the right time to blow this in Ricky's face and discredit him for good ..


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



yeloowtang said:


> just out of curiosity !! any news on when we get to see what Lotter had to say  or is it best to keep that back until the right time to blow this in Ricky's face and discredit him for good ..


I've been hoping to hear back again on something from Dr. Lötters that will firmly cement the credibility and authenticity.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I've been hoping to hear back again on something from Dr. Lötters that will firmly cement the credibility and authenticity.


Stephan updated me this morning. He has not forgotten about us, but has more pressing matters. I am being completely understanding and respectful of that.

Basically treat this like a highly anticipated software release. It will happen when it happens.

I have permission to share his original email and his short opinion presented there, however; I feel like what he has volunteered to work on for us, is so much more worth the wait.


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

sweet  thanks for the update !!
I agree that waiting to have even more is better..

It will make the things that much more interesting when the info is out..


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dillion Wascher/Rick Wascher/USA Frog said:


> Pet Dart Frogs on Sale - SAFE® - Buy Dart Frogs > FROGWASH™
> FROGWASH™ is senseless talk or writings about these pet Dendrobate frogs; also known as nonsense, bunk, piffle, poppycock or twaddle (origin: pre-1750). Every couple days we will add a FROGWASH™ reproof or correction to this list.
> 
> This section will "debunk the junk" out there.
> On what basis is what we will write here any better than what anybody else writes? We want you to have the complete truth mated with common sense. We have about 10,000 frogs, tadpoles, and fertilized eggs in house right now. We have over 350 pairings of M/F frogs breeding now, getting along great and intended for breeding, or being "dry-cycled" to give them a break.
> Yeah, but the old timers have been around longer than you. True, but everybody knows there is a lot of agenda driven ridiculousness out there, and may have been spinning their webs of profiitable deceit for a long time too, so it might take a bit more time for the truth to become known. Also, they don't have the frog population we do and never did using our numbers above!
> We are talking about "what have you done for me lately", type of performance and not some old line source of outdated info. For example, one of them says the breeders will kill each other during mating. WHAT? That one actually makes us realize this source just admitted bad frog care and survival undertones. Ours frogs live the pampered spa life where we feed the every other day, vary their diet as needed, give them time to socialize and keep their lives peaceful so they grow to size properly. When you get them they simply have a new home and give you the joy they gave us!
> FROGWASH™ (3/24/2015) TBA
> 
> Hint: Diatomaceous
> FROGWASH™ (3/23/2015)
> "Line Breeding"
> 
> The wild versions of these frogs are NOT endangered. They are OFFICIALLY ranked as "Least Concern", but man's illegal harvest of them for the pet trade is the NUMBER 1 threat to them.
> (See the OFFICIAL links. Tinctorius, Auratus, and Leucomelas.)
> 
> On that basis, it is good to breed within species as per the experts, but this is often presented/defended in the context of staying within variety too. The true experts on wild dart frogs, Lotters et al., assume the concept of polymorphism is well understood in terms of: "a tinctorius is a tinctorius", "an auratus is an auratus", and a "leucomelas is a leucomelas" like it or not, but that is the official word on the matter.
> 
> For anyone to say something like: "with the wild resources being depleted a person should only breed within the variety" is motivated by personal interest, not fact. All of the captive bred PET Dendrobates of the species Tinctorius, Auratus, and Leucomelas are not intended for reintroduction into the wild. They are bred for the pet trade to live in glass boxes and enjoy. Purists hate that fact, but it is still a fact.
> 
> Assuming the LEGAL PET frog trade expands, consider this: 10 frogs of variety A, 10 frogs of variety B, and 10 frogs of variety C. All of them are already here in the U.S. There is an equal number of males and females per variety, and all the same species of course. That yields 5 breeding pairs each of A, B, and C from which ALL pet frogs will have to come from. In time, lines A, B, and C will be inbred and runty, OR someone will get more wild frogs and perpetuate man's damage on the wild.
> 
> Now consider the same frogs, but 1/3 of the offspring is bred to itself, and the other 2/3 to the other varieties (i.e., 1/3 AxA, 1/3 AxB, and 1/3 AxC). Do this for EACH variety. Then breed an AxB and a BxC offspring...and the combinations are huge in number and not one additional wild frog is needed. The net is a MUCH larger supply of pet frogs to satisfy demand WITHOUT the temptation to go into the wild for more A, B, and C frogs. Moreover, the wild frogs are BETTER preserved IN THEIR NATURAL habitats for generations to come.
> 
> A true love for these frogs ahead of personal interests is needed to truly appreciate the NEED for embracing these captive bred frogs for what they are, i.e., awesome PETS with great varietal potential!
> FROGWASH™ (3/23/2015)
> The "Best Way to Breed Dart Frogs"
> 
> We watched a tips for breeding dart frogs YouTube video where a guy representing one of the well-known frog sellers recommended if you want to breed frogs the best way they recommend is starting with juveniles and raising them up.
> 
> What? On its face that is bad advice. It is also self-serving because the vast majority of what they sell are juveniles.
> The truth is, the best way to start breeding now is to find a proven, currently breeding, pair of frogs from a reliable source and buy it for a reasonable price. The problem is finding it and the price.
> The next option is buying a M/F pairing already put together for the purpose of breeding months before your purchase, and hopefully showing signs of mating activity in the near future. Here again, finding them and price is the issue.
> Then one step down again is a sexed pairing of older frogs already in the same enclosure paired for breeding months previously as in 2. above, and they get along great, but have not started yet.
> From there, one lower step would be sexed adults livig together that get along great, or below that an a la carte putting together of a male and female frog and they get along great. You would raise them to maturity in the home you give them, and so on.
> The LAST one is buy the juveniles, because you will wait for over a year to get them to maturity and hope they breed and then they might not.
> 
> Whey then does the source of the YouTube video tips on breeding dart frogs say buy juveniles and raise them when in reality that is the LAST thing to do if you want to breed frogs now?
> 
> Answer: All they sell are young frogs, but then you have to ask, "how much of their other "advice" is self-serving like that?"


/facepalm

Posted for laughs. If you didn't know they actually believe their own nonsense, you'ld think they were just trolling at this point....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Didn't take long for them to give up on that stupid idea....


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Frogtraction™ : Writing superbly ignorant things without thinking through them, then having to remove them the next day when you're proven to be an idiot.


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TarantulaGuy said:


> Frogtraction™ : Writing superbly ignorant things without thinking through them, then having to remove them the next day when you're proven to be an idiot.


Okay, you made me legitimately LOL with that. Congrats.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



TarantulaGuy said:


> Frogtraction™ : Writing superbly ignorant things without thinking through them, then having to remove them the next day when you're proven to be an idiot.


Brilliant, made me scoff a nice swig of a fantastic local Amber Lager.....

Thanks a lot.


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What? Aww c’mon where is the fun if they take it down so fast I can’t read it earlier in the day and then have the pleasure to reply at my leisure later that evening at home? 

It kinda is sad though because at least for a while I could honestly say I fully supported one of their definitions….

…and no it was not their definition of polymorphism when they said “The true experts on wild dart frogs, Lotters et al., assume the concept of polymorphism is well understood in terms of: "a tinctorius is a tinctorius", "an auratus is an auratus", and a "leucomelas is a leucomelas" like it or not, but that is the official word on the matter.” 

To use an apt quote by Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride (no, not the “you killed my father one”)
“You keep using that word…I do not think it means what you think it means…”

Stop using the word polymorphic! You are doing it wrong…and don’t care! Inconceivable!

Anyways, back to the original topic.
For one magical, short, gleaming afternoon I can honestly say I supported them 100% on one point… While Rick tries to talk like a geneticist, act like an ecologist and define speciation like an evolutionary biologist, having had some experience with those fields I disagree on all of his comments there…There really is only one thing I can agree with that they have said on their website and that was their blog with explanations and science info was absolutely FROGWASH! 

Sigh, yet even that has been taken away…err…I mean Frogtracted! Ah, well I can already see how this one can be quite fun and useful to get a few miles of use in this thread. If Rick likes to use a [sic] as his passive-aggressive way to make opponents look silly, we can now counter with a “Frogtracted!” whenever comments that we point out later magically disappear from the page for some reason…Thank you Tarantulaguy for this wonderful word!

Man, do I look forward to whenever/whatever Lotter’s is working on and communicating with Doug about regarding DFW is ready. Maybe it’ll take a little wind out of their sails when they can no longer rely on misinterpretation of Lotter’s work to try to give them a false sense of respectability.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Dr. Stefan Lotters delivered to me and USA Frog, a PDF file, expressing his opinion on USA Frog and what they're doing *On university letterhead and hand signed* this morning. It needs a minor amendment to be 100% factually accurate before publication.

I was given permission to publish it here and elsewhere. If you are the administrator of another forum, facebook group, blog, etc. and care about this issue, please contact me so that I can share the document with you for publication.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I look forward to how they handle this with their version of damage control. Knowing how they handle things they will remove everything off of their site and claim that their misleading quotes were never there to begin with. It should be interesting to see if nothing else.


----------



## Philsuma

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

PM sent to you Doug.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Tell him thanks for his voluntary time and effort from us. Thanks to you as well Doug!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The time difference between Dr. Lötters and myself is a frustrating hurdle, but I should have a final draft to publish shortly. If I'm hopeful, tomorrow morning, as it seems due to the time difference, Dr. Lötters seems to reply to me early in the AM here.

Thanks guys for your continued patience. I'm insisting on getting this right. Dr. Lötters deserves that much respect.

Expect some serious Frogtraction™ From USA Frog soon.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No Doug. We thank you for the work that you continue to put into getting us the opportunity to see what they have to say on the matter.


----------



## ecichlid

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Other than changing how they cite on their website, what other changes do you think this will bring about at DFW? My prediction - none.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ecichlid said:


> Other than changing how they cite on their website, what other changes do you think this will bring about at DFW? My prediction - none.


Unfortunately I think you are right Eric. Rick and Dillon and USA Frog are steadfastly determined to do what they do. My hope would be that they would have enough sense to listen to someone with as much expertise and credibility as Dr. Stefan Lotters, however; it is pretty clear that Rick suffers from an abundance of ego and lacks humility. When faced with what Dr. Lotters has to say, I'm doubtful that even he will remain this stubborn. I suspect he will Frogtract whatever statements like he has in the past and pretend that they never happened. Most of his unsuspecting victims will never be the wiser.

In the end, we will have a clear and defining statement from the main author of Poison Frogs, stating that the Wascher's have misused and misrepresented what he and the other authors wrote. I'm just happy to have a much more credible source to put up against the Frogwash that Rick has written.

This isn't a dagger, but it does kick out from under USA Frog, one of the legs of their table on which their justification is constructed.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I think DFW has way too much invested in the designer frog business to back out now. It's safe to say that no matter what happens here they will continue to tailor their business model in the same way as they have in the past. I do think they will have to take down their "this is what the experts say" page of misrepresentation after this, though, and that's good enough for me. 

In the future, they can breed what they want, when they want, but they're going to have a much tougher time painting the scenario as THE HOBBY vs. DFW and THE EXPERTS. It will just be interesting to see if they try to debate Lotters, et al on their own book. After reviewing the site recently I was struck with how reverent they are. Some examples:



> The undisputed experts are the world-renowned Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt.
> They wrote the "book" on the subject of these frogs. Others books exist, but NONE even come close to the quality or caliber of their work....
> 
> Mr. Weygoldt was one of the earliest discoverers/importers of these frogs from the wild and he too recognized these frogs are classified and best understood by an appreciation of the basic scientific principles set forth by Lotters, et al., and presented in partial summary form below in recognition of their labors. Also, MANY of the most highly respected dart frog hobbyists have referred to this book as the "Dart Frog Bible."...
> 
> The Lotters, et al. treatise is THE one and only true authority in print. Too many other works and web resources are wrong, and some are intentionally so. We whole heartedly rejoice in the truth presented by Lotters, et al., and it is with great thanks and appreciation we use excerpts from their work and recommend it completely! Please consider buying it. It truly is a timeless resource...


If someone you respect as the utmost authority tells you that you are wrong, do you change or do you just not respect that authority any longer? I guess that depends on your agenda.


----------



## oldlady25715

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Another issue is the squishy terms DFW uses and don't define such as "varieties " they will continue to use these unclear terms as they interpret and massage outside information to serve their business needs.

Congrats on the good work Doug.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

As predicted, a heavy dose of Frogtraction™ Going on tonight. Have fun burning the midnight oil on this one, Rick, you're welcome. 

Also notably missing, at least for now, is the nonsense they made up about Rep Cal vs Repashy.

Protip Rick - just stop lying, stealing from the hard work of others, and just be honest. It would save you a whole lot of work in the long run.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> As predicted, a heavy dose of Frogtraction™ Going on tonight. Have fun burning the midnight oil on this one, Rick, you're welcome.


Holy cow, you're not kidding! I was just at the site earlier today and a lot has changed. They look like they are down to one page of inaccurate crossbreed/hybrid pseudoscience and it's a bunch of conflicting statements without official quotations. I can't wait to see what that letter said.

He's still maintaining, of course, that somebody (the hobby?) thought that hybrid frogs would be sterile and that anyone who uses the term "crossbreed" is racist, but you know, baby steps. It's hard to stamp out that much ignorance in one day.


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Way too much Frogtraction™ going on over there. Looks like they're systematically eliminating all mention of Lotters and their glowing praise for him. In another day, he'll be lumped in with the rest of us "froglodytes" (see what I did there? ). Ah well, did any of us honestly expect anything different?


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess it's safe to say they no longer "*whole heartedly rejoice in the truth presented by Lotters, et al.*" Full disclosure, it's hard not to giggle.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ladies and Gentlmen,

It is my sincerest honor and privilege to share with you, the opinion of Dr. Stefan Lotters with respect to USA Frog.

I believe his word deserves to stand on its own without my usual snark and sarcasm.

The following is an edited, by Stefan, version of the original document he sent directly to Rick Washer and Dillion Washer, intended for public distribution.

Enjoy



Dr. Stephan Lotters said:


> To whom it may Concern
> 
> Misuse of Lötters et al., 2007, “Poison Frogs” with regard to poison frog morph design on usafrog.com
> 
> It has come to my attention that the webpage Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com has taken certain liberties with sections of “Poison Frogs: Biology, Species, and Captive Husbandry'”, a book I am the main author of. Various passages of this book have been used on this webpage as justification for designing unnatural color morphs. That is mixing different natural color morphs of one poison frog species.
> 
> Apart from that I find designing morphs most disgusting, the makers of the designer morphs, on their webpage, notably misuse and incorrectly interpret passages from pages 85, 86, 96-97, 236, 530, and 549 of our book. My opinion and that of other poison frog researchers as well as serious hobby frog breeders is that one must not mix color morphs!
> 
> Given hundreds of natural morphs already exist in nature, encompassing a rainbow of colors and patterns, there exists no justifiable need for such practices. Even if they didn’t, this is reckless and unnatural. Regardless of justifications, the creation of designer morphs is not encouraged anywhere in our book!
> 
> None of the photographs of the front and back covers of our book, or pictures of the pages within it are used on the above mentioned webpage with any permission. Their use should not be considered an endorsement of the ideas of USA Frog.
> 
> I prompted the holders of Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com to remove the above mentioned book as a reference for making designer morphs!
> 
> Cordially,
> 
> Stefan Lotters


Dr. Lotters was kind enough to prepare his opinion, on University letterhead, so as to remove any doubt as to the authenticity. Dr Lotters has given me permission to share this document with the poison frog community.



Dr. Stefan Lotters said:


> I will be very happy if you could distribute this, as I expect you are registered in the various groups (I am not even on Facebook (very old-fashioned)). You have my full permission to distribute the document and use it. Would be good to have some feedback.


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Doug, prepare for your 'thanked' count to double. Regardless of the DFW response, you've done a great thing for the hobby, and our relationship with the science behind frogging.


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Huzzah! I'd like and thank Doug for that post 1000 times if I could. That made my crummy day so much better! 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ecichlid

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Nice work Doug! I expect that DFW will not remove their designer morphs for sale. They just won't cite Dr Lotters anymore. If this is indeed the case, then in my opinion, they don't respect the opinion of Dr Lotters. At best, they only cited him because they believed his writings supported their financial angle. That's my opinion.


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*“Reckless and Unnatural”?
“must not mix color morphs”?*

Whuff. No way to split hairs over different interpretations based upon horrible definitions for cross breeding or hybrids. Just plain and simple color morphs, and plain and simple disgust from “The Frog Bible Expert”...fantastic! Thank you Dr. Stefan Lotters! Thank you Doug! Next up, Even more massive Frogtractions!

Everybody better check out what the pages for rebel and designer frogs look like now…If the science page got a makeover to remove nearly all references to Lotters earlier today post-haste, I'm guessing after Lotters sent the letter to them or just in fear of what was coming based on Doug's warning in this thread, I wonder how those categories are going to get spun now that there is absolutely no grey area regarding the experts, scientists, breeder and hobbyists stance on designer frogs…?

Does the forum give out “Outstanding Dendroboarder of the Year Awards?” I sure can think of somebody in this thread who definitely deserves a nomination…


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Life is good.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It's nice to see this spreading to all the groups already. I've shared this to my regional groups and I hope that others are doing this as well. 
Have fun Rick. You've earned it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Tons of editing going on over there today. It's funny to see some of the things Rick puts up, then takes down. We'll have to wait until the dust settles on their reconstruction project, however; it seems apparent that Rick is intent on using quotes from Lötters et al in an attempt to sound legit, even after having been specifically and directly asked by Lötters *NOT TO DO SO*. 



Dr. Stefan Lötters said:


> None of the photographs of the front and back covers of our book, or pictures of the pages within it are used on the above mentioned webpage with any permission.


Rick, Stefan was very clear, you're using passages from his and others book without permission. *JUST STOP!* You should know by now, as well as anyone, that your use, of their work, without permission represents an infringement on their intellectual property. Have you no dignity at all?


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thats great! On the business side of things it really solidifies to consumers that they have no credibility and really dont know what they are doing. I am sure the word of this will spread like wildfire and some regulars in their FROGPYRAMIDSCHEMEtm will leave. I sense a new business name change. CLOWNFROGStm. Because it is run by a bunch of clowns obviously


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

My emails and response with DFW.

I am sure you guys have quoted this pretty well for everybody.


Thank you!


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Lotters
From: Brian Strange <[email protected]>
Date:*Sun, March 29, 2015 9:09 am
To:*[email protected]




Even Lotters doesn't like what you are doing. Maybe you can quote him on this.

* Thanks

* * *Brian*


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®4



-------- Original message --------
From:*[email protected]*
Date:03/29/2015 12:00 PM*(GMT-05:00)*
To: Brian Strange <[email protected]>*
Subject: RE: Lotters*

Why?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Lotters
From: Brian Strange <[email protected]>
Date:*Sun, March 29, 2015 8:24 am
To:*[email protected]



My want to remove references.


OFFICIALLY: A Tinctorius is just a Tinctorius, an Auratus is just an Auratus, and a Leucomelas is just a Leucomelas, etc., no matter what it looks like, and no matter what it is called. Every other name has no official significance. Stated another way, there are no subspecies and no official significance whatsoever to the variety names used in the trade. For clarity, the vernacular names including, but not limited to, cobalt, oyapok, powder blue, regina, patricia, azureus, alanis, inferalanis, ole marie, yellow back, citronella, true sipaliwini,.....etc., are, from the viewpoint of official nomenclature, "utter nonsense".* (See, Poison Frogs,* Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel and Schmidt, page 85, paragraph 2.)*Appearance differences do not change their species and the experts said this very strongly.* For example, the variety of blue frog called "azureus" (pictured at right) was once thought to be a separate species and called "Dendrobates Azureus". After official genetic testing, it isnow officially called Dendrobates Tinctorius. For even greater clarity, consider humans. We are different colors and shapes and all look different, but we are all the same species


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab®4


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That has to hurt when the only source they were trying to use to justify their practices this entire time called it disgusting! Haha I love it!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks to Scott and the Moderation Team for Stickying this post where it won't be lost. I appreciate your help in making sure as many people are aware of Lotters opinion as we can.

Thank you as well to the moderators of other forums, Facebook groups, blogs, etc. for putting the spotlight on this. This is truly representative of the teamwork we are capable of when motivated.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Disgusting? Unnatural?? Reckless??

Holy crap! Dr. Lotter feels stronger about this than I do! Doug you did not oversell this. This is epic. Legendary status achieved, my friend. They can spin it any way they want at this point but they are going to have a hard time claiming they're scientists with a condemnation like that from the authors of the most authoritative work on the subject. 

Now if you excuse me, I'm going to go write a song about ZooKeeperDoug. What rhymes with "ripped them a new one"?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> What rhymes with "ripped them a new one"?


I would love to help you but I`ve already reached my quota on infraction points from this damned thread


----------



## SDK

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Life has pulled me away from DB and this thread, although I am still happily keeping frogs....

The second this letter popped up on Facebook, I knew where to go to find the source....

Doug, thanks so much for tirelessly and diligently following up and getting this done. Seeing the last bit of name dropped pseudo endorsements disappear from thier website truly made my day. You are to be commended!

Warmest Regards,
Scott


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks everyone for the strong words of thanks. I do sincerely appreciate it.

Really though, Dr. Lotters deserves the credit here. I did reach out to him for his opinion, but it was his suggestion to put "pen to paper" so to speak. He did the heavy lifting, I just helped make it happen and make sure you all got to see it. Dr. Lotters is far more deserving of your thanks and gratitude than I am.vshould you ever find yourself in Germany or a jungle with him someday, shake HIS hand and buy the man a cold one.

If you liked Discusting, Unnatural, a Reckless, you'ld love his original unfiltered opinion of the Wascher hybrids.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rick Wascher said:


> In a growing pet frog market and increasing demand for colorful pet frogs, there are three (3), and only three (3), ways to promote frog health.
> 
> With the emphasis on what is best for the frogs, knowing it is man himself and his illegal harvest of wild caught frogs that poses the single greatest risk to these magnificent creatures in the wild, there are only three (3) ways to preserve and promote what is best for the frogs. They are:
> 
> 1. Avoid inbreeding of frogs. As demand grows and a market exists there will be increasing tempatations to inbreed.
> 
> 2. Import more wild caught frogs to improve genetics. In the interest of conservation and preservation we believe there should be an outright ban on further frog harvests from the wild, and stiffer legal penalties for those who engage in this form of trafficking and the ecological damage to the rain forest populations/habitats.
> 
> 3. Breed between the races of the same frog species.
> 
> It is believed USA Frog has the most extensive colorful pet frog breeding program in the world. As such, not only do we know firsthand which of the CLASSIC frog lines are the best-of-the-best and we breed only them, we have a strong growing knowledge and understanding of which of the CLASSIC races (i.e., color morphs) produce MANY of the color morphs not yet imported into the U.S.A. We also know, based on strong captive breeding evidence, some of the color morphs popping up in Europe are indeed a combination of other color morphs.
> 
> *On that basis, to meet the need for the growing demand of pet frogs, we now have confirmation at least one of the experts in the field of wild Poison Frogs, not captive bred frogs, has championed the supply of color morphs in the wild as a viable option and reasoning for his personal dislike for mixed race frogs (3. above).
> 
> Knowing many of the wild colorful frogs are the result of open breeding in the wild, Dr. Stefan Lotters has, in effect, declared an "open season" on the colorful wild Poison Frogs to satisfy the demand of the colorful pet frog trade. Perhaps Mr. Lotters was unaware of the growing demand for colorful pet frogs in the United States, but why would anybody not first advocate using the cost effective frog resources and supplies people have already harvested from the wild and previously converted to pets, and discourage additional wild frogs harvests from suffering habitats. We are surprised he does not have a higher regard for preservation and conservation of the wild Poison Frogs he studies, and simply chalk up the mixed race frog issue to personal preference instead of aggressively advancing his own in a tantrum. *
> 
> USA Frog is completely committed to preserving the wild frog populations and wild frog habitats worldwide.
> For that reason, we offer:
> 
> The best top quality CLASSIC non poison dart frogs to retain the true heritage of the wild in the SAFE captive bred frogs we breed, raise, and sell. ALL of our CLASSIC frogs are from the best-of-the-best lines and TOP quality, health, beauty, and strength.
> Gorgeous DESIGNER® pet frogs that look identical to frogs discovered in the wild. This truly eco-friendly option also serves as a sustainable supply of frogs for the pet trade, i.e., without the need for further imports.
> A third class of colorful pet frogs we call the REBEL™ American Pet Frogs of mixed race. Like our colorful American heritages as U.S. citizens, these frogs are "Made in America". Like our pioneer nature as a U.S. culture, and in the spirit our freedoms were won by "Rebels" of the crown in early American history, these frogs speak freedom and make GREAT PETS too!
> ALL of our efforts are directed to preserve and conserve wild frog habitats and minimize the desire for wild caught frogs from the rainbow of wild colorful frogs Dr. Lotters offers up in satisfaction of the pet frog demand worldwide. Add to that, wild caught frogs are KNOWN to have carried vicious population destroying diseases of which we want no part.
> 
> Sincerely,
> USA Frog
> 
> Rick Wascher, General Counsel


Wow, just wow. You sir are a piece of work. You've gone from praising the man as the definitve authority to defaming him in one fell swoop.

And in a true stroke of comedic ignorance and oversight, Rick posts his own ragegasm, while other parts of the USA Frog site continue to praise Lotters and refer to him as THE authority, his expertise, etc.

This is a new Low even for you Rick.


Irony


> we don't disparage others,


----------



## a hill

*Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog*

So I'm just checking back in to the thread after seeing the letter, excellent work. 

Literally one of the best things I've seen done in a situation like this or for the hobby in general. 

Now, how does the hobby take the next steps to make sure no businesses will buy from them, and these frogs are tracked/controlled/contained/culled?

I think 10,000 frogs has got to be quite the investment! 

Seriously though, just a few more steps. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rick Wascher said:


> It is believed USA Frog, owned and operated by three (3) brothers, Dillon (21), Devin (18), and Daly (15), have produced the most extensive colorful pet frog breeding program in the world. They do know what they are doping. As such, not only do they know firsthand which of the CLASSIC frog lines are the best-of-the-best and breed only them, they have a strong growing knowledge and understanding of which of the CLASSIC races (i.e., color morphs) produce MANY of the color morphs discovered, but not yet imported into the U.S.A. They also know, based on strong captive breeding evidence, some of the color morphs popping up in Europe are indeed a combination of other color morphs.
> 
> On that basis, to meet the need for the growing demand of pet frogs, we now have confirmation at least one of the experts in the field of wild Poison Frogs, NOT captive bred frogs, has championed the supply of color morphs in the wild as a viable option, as well as the reason behind his "disgust" for mixed race frogs (3. above). Knowing many of the wild colorful frogs are the result of open breeding in the wild, Dr. Stefan Lotters has, in effect, declared an "open season" on the colorful wild Poison Frogs to satisfy the demand of the colorful pet frog trade. He does this all because someone is breeding frog without his permission.
> 
> Perhaps Mr. Lotters was unaware of the growing demand for colorful pet frogs in the United States, but why would he not first advocate using the cost effective frog resources and supplies people have already harvested from the wild and previously converted to pets, discourage additional wild frogs harvests from suffering habitats, and do what is needed to preserve the wild as is. We are surprised he does not have a higher regard for preservation and conservation of the wild Poison Frogs he studies, and feel embarrassed at his not opting to chalk-up the mixed race frog issue to personal preference instead of aggressively advancing his own in a juvenile tantrum. Again, we are talking about three brothers breeding frogs as small business owners and selleing them to people who like top quality pretty frogs.
> 
> USA Frog is completely committed to preserving the wild frog populations and wild frog habitats worldwide.
> For that reason, we offer:


Posted for posterity. As I mentioned earlier, it's interesting to watch Rick flail about, trying to do damage control after such a scathing rebuttal. Now, we all expected some kind of damage control, spin, etc. but I certainly didn't see Rick resorting to this level of defamation, character assassination, and libel of one of the most well respected members of the poison frog community.

You should be embarrassed Rick, but not for the reasons you state....


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Wow, just wow. You sir are a piece of work. You've gone from praising the man as the definitve authority to defaming him in one fell swoop.
> 
> And in a true stroke of comedic ignorance and oversight, Rick posts his own ragegasm, while other parts of the USA Frog site continue to praise Lotters and refer to him as THE authority, his expertise, etc.
> 
> This is a new Low even for you Rick.


   

Oh for the love of…. Seriously? It moved from misinterpreting the science, to now completely slandering the character of Dr. Lotters? Is this really a personal battle he wants to pick between Dr. Lotters, a respected scientist well-known in his field, and his university’s legal department? This is really off the deep end. Character defamation against a respected scientist well-known in his field? Wow. We figured there would be changes but nothing this ill-conceived.

So the timeline of events goes:

1.	USA Frog uses extensive copywritten material from Lotters’ manuscript to misrepresent the science in the author’s book in order to support their business 
2.	The author replies with a cease and desist letter regarding unauthorized use of his work and provides his opinion regarding their use of his work to support a business whose very premise he finds appalling and wants to have no connection to their business
3.	USA Frog resorts to character defamation and libel by publishing false statements accusing Dr. Lotters of promoting wild-collection, throwing a “tantrum” and having little regard for preservation or conservation on their business website.

I have never seen a business air their dirty laundry so publicly where customers can see how unprofessional their management behaves. Their website is denigrating into a pre-pubescent junior high student’s blog kvetching about the people they don’t like at school instead of a professional website trying to impress potential customers.

Rick signs as “general counsel” but I think it wouldn’t hurt to have a bit of a refresher on a few legal topics, specifically libel and what is the appropriate response after receiving a cease a desist letter regarding unauthorized copyright infringement…cough cough…it USUALLY isn’t launching into a personal attack defaming the person. As another tip, there are also still screenshots from the specific pages already mentioned in the letter from Lotters’ book that haven’t been removed from the page.

USA Frog refers to Lotters as "one of the experts in the field of wild Poison Frogs, NOT captive bred frogs". Ummm, Rick. You do know the title of the book you were plagiarizing and misrepresenting on your website resulting in a cease and desist letter from the author is called "Poison Frogs: Biology, Species *& Captive Husbandry*"???? The whole of Part 2 in the Book is titled "Husbandry and breeding of poison frogs in the terrarium" It goes from pages 167-264. Tell me again how Lotters doesn't know anything about captive frogs now that there are some pretty concrete facts to the contrary staring you in the face?

Rick. You quote single words from Lotters letters in your attack against Dr Lotters. You obviously are a man willing to take a challenge by your response to Lotters and his university's letter. Why stop there? Go all in. Post the whole letter on your website. Do it. There is a perfect file of the letter already Doug posted in this thread. No selective screenshots, not exclusive quoting of subsections. You already were happy to post whole pages of his book without permission, why not post this letter he wrote specifically for you and your business? Maybe on the "Experts/Science" tab? Maybe the business practice section about "Do you have any critics?"

Make it simple for you to quote it and highlight the relevant parts to your customers. You already are mentioning the letter on the website saying you have confirmation and evidence from top scientists, so the curious customer would naturally look to see if they can find what you are talking about somewhere and chances are it will lead them here. Why make the customers have to search? Just post the whole letter. Or do we have to dare you?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

This is hilarious....



Rick Wascher said:


> Perhaps Mr. Lotters was unaware of the growing demand for colorful pet frogs in the United States, but why would he not first advocate using the cost effective frog resources and supplies people have already harvested from the wild and previously converted to pets, actively discourage additional wild frogs harvests, and do what is needed to preserve the wild as is. We are surprised he does not have a higher regard for preservation and conservation of the wild Poison Frogs he studies, and feel embarrassed at his lack of genius in not opting to chalk-up the mixed race frog issue to personal preference instead of aggressively advancing his own in a juvenile tantrum against three young guys breedng and raising frogs to sell as pets. Really, Lotters? These forg wil NEVER re-enter the wild, but spend their entire frog life in glass box for people to ooohh and aahh over, and this threatens you. Again, we are talking about three brothers breeding frogs as small business owners and selling them to people who like top quality pretty frogs. Don't worry, we removed the stuff form your book as you asked.


And you accuse Dr. Lotters of throwing a juvenile tantrum Rick? Really Rick?

Oh, and no, you didn't, you're still using excerpts elsewhere. How can you lie so easily? for goodness sake man, think of the lesson you're teaching your kids right now. The very man, less than 24 Hours Ago you openly praised and reveared, you're now telling them that in light of him explaining clearly and professionally, his opinion, the appropriate response is this?


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Um, where in the letter did Dr. Lotters advance the notion of collecting wild caught animals, especially to the level of extinction? I can't seem to find that part. Is it because he referred to hundreds of morphs worldwide? That's quite a leap.

Maybe Dr. Lotters understands that flooding the market with Frankenmorphs lowers confidence in locality/importation specific frogs, which makes those specific frog fall out of vogue, which in turn make individuals stop breeding those frogs, which in turn creates interest in importations, which....drumroll.....puts pressure on wild frog populations. 

I am just dumbfounded that as soon as "the authority" called DFW on their crap, he was no longer "the authority". That's some pretty transparent hypocrisy, Rick. 

Also, I have to say the statement that we "feel embarrassed at his lack of genius in not opting to chalk-up the mixed race frog issue to personal preference instead of aggressively advancing his own in a juvenile tantrum against three young guys breedng and raising frogs to sell as pets" is one of the weirdest statements I've ever read on a business website. "Embarrassed at his lack of genius"???

Rick, the hobby has spoken, the experts have spoken, could it just be possible that you're wrong, or has that ever even mattered?

Edit* Oh Jeez, one more quote.


> Unlike Lotters, USA Frog is FIRST and FOREMOST completely committed to preserving the wild frog populations and wild frog habitats worldwide!


----------



## Wusserton

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> Actually encouraging a keeper to pour flies on their hand, then stick the hand into an enclosure in the hopes of having the frogs crawl directly onto them...just a baffling recommendation!
> Anyone want to wager a guess as to how soon one of their customers follows their suggestion and becomes seriously ill with Salmonella, Chlamydia, or any number of other potential diseases that amphibians can transmit?
> You would think that a family that claims to have a legal background would be a little more concerned about being the target of a lawsuit. Additionally, it really seems like they are marketing to children, which makes this all the more dangerous.


Even if I could hold a frog of this size its not in my desire to do so, in every viv I build I usually find a coaster sized river rock and drop flies onto that rock, the frogs come running on their own no need to hold them lol any animal can be cognetively trained to act a certain way when rewards are offered (flies) just leave that rock out in the open and watch your frogs with joy as they become fat healthy happy little ribbits lol this entire ordeal is a big mess to me, the last thing that ever crossed my mind when I entered this hobby was to profit in any way but it seems that is the only thing he is trying to do and playing damage control like this is ugly. Your absolutely right about the legal implications that could come out of some kid getting a disease from this type of language lol even my 5 year old daughter knows that the frogs are for watching and not for touching, we have 2 dogs for "touching"


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

On a slightly different note, I'm really glad that apparently I'm not the only one to flag the website as "dangerous" when visiting it through donotlink, as I now get a warning that the majority of users have rated the site that way.  That makes me smile. Also. I used google cache and saved their webpage from a few days ago, when they're still praising Lotters. I think at some point once their done with the Frogtraction™ I'll post a side by side so we can see the hypocrisy at face value.  Just to make myself feel a little better.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So Lotters is being mean and juvenile because he asked them to stop using his work without his permission to further their commercial interests. Never mind the fact that they are/were totally misinterpreting the work to mean pretty much the opposite of what it actually means and are posting their misinterpretation on a website that expounds something that Lotters thinks is wrong at its core.
What a bad man. (sarcasm)


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I felt that USAFROG should have a facebook page and since they don't have time to create one what with all of their website edits I went ahead and helped them out.
With facebook being used more and more for everything I know that there are people that we are missing that could be their potential customers. Now when they try and look them up they will find a page with a link to this thread as well as the letter for the good Dr.
I will also be sending the log in information to a few people that I feel can express what needs to be said better than myself.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009508953031


----------



## Bez

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Regardless of your opinion of dart frogs and the dart frog hobby the logical atrocities committed on their website are enough to make even the least educated among us cringe.

"knowing it is man himself and his illegal harvest of wild caught frogs that poses the single greatest risk to MANY of these magnificent creatures in the wild (see below), there are only three (3) ways to preserve and promote what is best for the frogs. They are:"

"2. Import more wild caught frogs to improve genetics. In the interest of conservation and preservation we believe there should be an outright ban on further frog harvests from the wild, and stiffer legal penalties for those who engage in this form of illegal trafficking and the ecological damage to the rain forest populations/habitats."

So...one way to stop the flow of wild caught frogs is to import more wild caught frogs...brilliant.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Lost in the timing of all this is the notable Frogtraction™ of their laughable non-study/battle between Repashy and Repcals products. I suspect, just like those libelous comments were removed, after having been proven false and embarrassing, so will Ricks defamatory statements about Dr. Lotters.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> I will also be sending the log in information to a few people that I feel can express what needs to be said better than myself.
> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009508953031


Don`t give it to me no matter how much I beg


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Don`t give it to me no matter how much I beg


My bad John. i thought I sent it to you already


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rick Wascher said:


> On that foundation, it is quite surprising to learn one of the undisputed experts in the field of wild Poison Frogs, albeit NOT captive bred frogs, Dr. Stefan Lotters (Germany) champions the existing wild populations of colorful wild poison dart frogs as the solution to satisfy the growing demand for colorful pet frogs throughout the world. Specifically, in an open letter he shares his personal "disgust" for mixed race frogs (3. above), leaving only inbreeding (1. above) and continued importation of wild caught frogs (2. above) as the only ways he proposes to meet the pet frog demand. To me, he has declared an "open season" on the colorful wild Poison Dart Frogs to satisfy the demand of the colorful pet frog trade.
> 
> USA Frog is quite saddened he does not have a higher regard for preservation and conservation of the wild Poison Frogs he studies, or a better sense of precaution for the vicious wild frog diseases known to exist. To that end, what was once a high admiration has turned to disappointment in knowing his true position on conservation and preservation as expressed in his open letter on University stationary no less. In addition, his failure to chalk-up the mixed race frog issue to personal preference as it should be, instead of aggressively advancing his own position seems to be unduly biased against people who disagree with him, including the three young guys who love to raise pet frogs


Keep trying to spin this Rick. No matter how hard you try, you look bad. Lotters is indeed the expert. He has the knowledge, expertise, authority, and respect that you do not, and never will. It is deplorable that you continue to defame him by essentially presenting a position as his, that is most clearly not at all, in a pathetic and transparent attempt to save face. Everyone sees right through you.


----------



## Wusserton

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Keep trying to spin this Rick. No matter how hard you try, you look bad. Lotters is indeed the expert. He has the knowledge, expertise, authority, and respect that you do not, and never will. It is deplorable that you continue to defame him by essentially presenting a position as his, that is most clearly not at all, in a pathetic and transparent attempt to save face. Everyone sees right through you.


if anything else this makes me want to read the book again lol I don't own a copy and borrowed it from a buddy but this makes me want to buy my own copy in support of Dr. Lotters, the cheapest copy I found was on Amazon for $100 and local book store prices are $280+ which in my opinion is worth the wealth of knowledge but in the interest of my wallet I will most likely get the $100 copy  

on second thought ...maybe Rick Wascher can sell me his copy for $20 since he doesn't know how to use it anyway! lol ...than again maybe not ...entire paragraphs are probably blacked out


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I really want a Kindle version


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Wusserton said:


> if anything else this makes me want to read the book again lol I don't own a copy and borrowed it from a buddy but this makes me want to buy my own copy in support of Dr. Lotters, the cheapest copy I found was on Amazon for $100 and local book store prices are $280+ which in my opinion is worth the wealth of knowledge but in the interest of my wallet I will most likely get the $100 copy


It is indeed an invaluable resource, Rick should actually pay attention the rest of it, and not just the parts that he can spin.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> My bad John. i thought I sent it to you already


No worries friend


----------



## Wusserton

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> I really want a Kindle version


Is there a kindle version? I didnt think to look!


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Wusserton said:


> Is there a kindle version? I didnt think to look!


No if there was I would buy it. Hopefully one day they will make it through


----------



## Sammie

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Does anyone know how they're doing? Like how much the company makes in a year?
I'm not sure how this works in the states, but over here tax records and stuff like that are public information and can be easily looked up online. 
It would be interesting to see as it would give some indication on how fast their ship is going down. 

I can't imagine how their business could be profitable, I mean who in their right mind would look at their website and and think: "Looks legit."


----------



## Wusserton

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Sammie said:


> Does anyone know how they're doing? Like how much the company makes in a year?
> I'm not sure how this works in the states, but over here tax records and stuff like that are public information and can be easily looked up online.
> It would be interesting to see as it would give some indication on how fast their ship is going down.
> 
> I can't imagine how their business could be profitable, I mean who in their right mind would look at their website and and think: "Looks legit."


Yeah we have open record laws here in the states so it wouldnt be terribly hard to track down that info given the time


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rick Wascher said:


> Still, Lotters seems to miss the pint. When an animal leaves the wild and is kept in a glass box inside a house for ejoyment and the family toriase as a cool colorful pet, and for show and tell at school, this is a pet. P-E-T, PET!{sic}


At least you can spell P E T. 

Anyone know what a toriase is and where I can get one as a P-E-T?

Not many Germans are known to miss a pint. Who knows, maybe Lotters is sober.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

C`mon Doug, thanks to you he has to just throw this stuff together with no notice or anything.

Poor guy


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Wusserton said:


> Yeah we have open record laws here in the states so it wouldnt be terribly hard to track down that info given the time


They are located in TN, right? I actually can't find them under either the BBB, or the secretary of state business entity search. I tried the surrounding states as well with no luck. They could be registered under a different name though other than Dartfrog Warehouse or USA Frog.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Sammie said:


> Does anyone know how they're doing? Like how much the company makes in a year?
> I'm not sure how this works in the states, but over here tax records and stuff like that are public information and can be easily looked up online.
> It would be interesting to see as it would give some indication on how fast their ship is going down.
> 
> I can't imagine how their business could be profitable, I mean who in their right mind would look at their website and and think: "Looks legit."


Unlike public companies, private companies are not required to file with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) so the information that can be found in those documents is not necessarily available for companies that are private.
While the information is out there it is not that easy to get a hold of.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So I emailed USA frog. Here is their brilliant response. 




> Really? You lose you're only leg to your mixed morph argument and rather than just retract the statements and false quotes you go on to defame the subject matter expert. Do you understand that you are your own worst enemy. On a daily basis you carry on childish rants on what is supposed to be your business site.
> 
> You created a war between your potential customers rather than accept that we unlike yourself have certain standards.
> 
> 
> I wonder if you could answer just one question with the full truth. I promise I will make it an easy one.
> 
> 
> Why can't you just accept the fact that you are the one who was wrong in all of this and not the thousands of hobbyist, researchers and experts?
> 
> 
> You are completely incapable of carrying on an adult conversation. The fact that you are still around just baffles me. Only in a small market like ours could a company pull the type of shit you do on a daily basis and still be un-noticed. I mean hell, you should be a whole chapter in collage economic text books on how not to conduct business.
> [email protected]
> 
> 2:25 PM (25 minutes ago)
> 
> to me
> These are pet frogs! Do we agree on this?


----------



## BrainBug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Sammie said:


> ...I mean who in their right mind would look at their website and and think: "Looks legit."


From my understanding they have "taught" the frogs to do the website updates by dumping flies on their computer keyboard and letting them loose.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Sammie said:


> Does anyone know how they're doing? Like how much the company makes in a year?
> I'm not sure how this works in the states, but over here tax records and stuff like that are public information and can be easily looked up online.
> It would be interesting to see as it would give some indication on how fast their ship is going down.
> 
> I can't imagine how their business could be profitable, I mean who in their right mind would look at their website and and think: "Looks legit."


My guess is, if you have all day sitting around trying to spin this:



Rick Wascher said:


> On that foundation, it is quite surprising to learn one of the undisputed experts in the field of wild Poison Frogs, albeit NOT captive bred frogs, Dr. Stefan Lotters (Germany) champions the existing wild populations of colorful wild poison dart frogs as the solution to satisfy the growing demand for colorful pet frogs throughout the world. Specifically, in an open letter he shares his personal "disgust" for mixed race frogs (3. above), leaving only inbreeding (1. above) and continued importation of wild caught frogs (2. above) as the only ways he proposes to meet the pet frog demand. To me, he has declared an "open season" on the colorful wild Poison Dart Frogs to satisfy the demand of the colorful pet frog trade.
> 
> USA Frog is quite saddened, and left with a feeling of being betrayed, knowing he does not have a higher regard for preservation and conservation of the wild Poison Frogs he studies, or a better sense of precaution for the vicious wild frog diseases known to exist. To that end, what was once a high admiration has turned to disappointment in knowing his true position on conservation and preservation as expressed in his open letter on University stationary no less. In addition, his failure to chalk-up the mixed race frog issue to personal preference as it should be, instead of aggressively advancing his own position seems to be unduly biased against people who disagree with him, including the three young guys who love to raise pet frogs.
> 
> These frogs will NEVER re-enter the wild, but spend their entire frog life in a glass box for people to enjoy as the most awesome pets they are. Still, Lotters seems to miss the point. When a frog is kept in a glass box inside a house for a family to raise as a cool colorful pet, use show and tell at school, etc., that is a PET. Perhaps Mr. Lotters was unaware of the growing demand for colorful pet frogs in the United States, but why would he not first advocate using the cost effective resources and frog inventories people have already harvested from the wild and previously converted to pets, and actively discourage additional wild frog harvests for pets in attempt to do what is needed to preserve the wild as is?
> 
> We think he knew the official IUCN RED LIST OF THREATENED SPECIES having over 50 years of guiding conservation says the NUMBER ONE threat to the wild Tinctorius frog populations is man's illegal harvest for the pet trade. Even though many of the frogs in the pet trade are smuggled into it illegally, to be fair we must assume Mr. Lotters is talking about the "legal" pet trade, but he sems to take the approach that if he didn't do the smuggling then it is somehow okay. That leaves the harvest of wild frogs from the UNprotected areas, and assume every such taking was permitted on paper, etc., those UN-protected areas are a minority in geographical coverage (see the map below). I guess he is okay with depleting the unprotected area and leaving the protected areas intact. To me, that's not good enough.


That you're not selling many frogs.....


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

...that's ejoy....electronic joy, getting ejoy from glass boxes. Rick slow down and write so normal people can read it. Are you updating the site and trying a Murder One case at the same time, if not proof read or better yet, let one of the little Einstein's update the site or better yet swallow that planet sized ego of your and admit that when all signs point to your being wrong...you are wrong. Thank god mother nature didn't write a book


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I swear you can have a more adult conversation with a roomful of teenage girls on their first cycle then that chuckle head


----------



## stu&shaz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Doug, oh eck (zoo keeper). If there might be any use in this appearing over here in blighty, maybe some other places I'd be glad to try and help if I can.
PM me mate if there is anything at all.

When We started out in all this froggy malarky, Stephan Lotters's book was carried every where, almost, with me for the first year or so. I think his contribution to both our hobby and knowledge to be enormous, I can't even try and articulate my personal feelings on how much that book helped us hence how much the authors are owed. 

I understand your reticence to take credit here,but as has already been said you should,you have not only tried to help your hobby but the man himself,as some over there will not know the backstory and how Dr Lotters' words were being twisted. Somebody has to have the idea Doug and then run with it,all credit

Doug THANK YOU,time precludes me from reading this whole thread oh sure i've read some as it broke and bits and bods later. I would hope that having someone regarded so highly,(with bloody good reason in the dart hobby) helps your cause. To me it's our cause,frogs do move from Europe to USA and back ,we don't want ********** hybrids any more than you guys do.

Doug i'm not an eloquent guy just wanted to pop by and say sincere thanks ,sometimes the old likey thanky buttons just are not enough !!

take care 

Stu


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rick Wascher said:


> ...., and left with a feeling of betrayal, knowing Dr. Stefan Lotters does not have a higher regard for preservation and conservation of the wild Poison Frogs....


Ohhhh, so now he has betrayed you....?

*HE WAS NEVER ON YOUR SIDE IN THE FIRST PLACE!*


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



stu&shaz said:


> Doug, oh eck (zoo keeper). If there might be any use in this appearing over here in blighty, maybe some other places I'd be glad to try and help if I can.
> PM me mate if there is anything at all.
> 
> When We started out in all this froggy malarky, Stephan Lotters's book was carried every where, almost, with me for the first year or so. I think his contribution to both our hobby and knowledge to be enormous, I can't even try and articulate my personal feelings on how much that book helped us hence how much the authors are owed.
> 
> I understand your reticence to take credit here,but as has already been said you should,you have not only tried to help your hobby but the man himself,as some over there will not know the backstory and how Dr Lotters' words were being twisted. Somebody has to have the idea Doug and then run with it,all credit
> 
> Doug THANK YOU,time precludes me from reading this whole thread oh sure i've read some as it broke and bits and bods later. I would hope that having someone regarded so highly,(with bloody good reason in the dart hobby) helps your cause. To me it's our cause,frogs do move from Europe to USA and back ,we don't want ********** hybrids any more than you guys do.
> 
> Doug i'm not an eloquent guy just wanted to pop by and say sincere thanks ,sometimes the old likey thanky buttons just are not enough !!
> 
> take care
> 
> Stu


If you ever get across the Channel to that part of Europe, run into Dr. Lotters somehow, somewhere, buy him a round. That's all the thanks I need.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh, Ricky ...



Rick Wascher said:


> FYI for Mr. Lotters:
> 
> USA Frog disagrees with your disgust and loves mixed race frogs too, because, unlike you, they love all of the colorful frogs without exception or bias! Thus, this issue is personal choice and freedom, not rifght or worng. So, USA Frog has chosen to breed, raise, and sell mixed race frogs as pets as well as the other varieties includng the CLASSIC ones. For your information, the mixed race frogs that disgust you so much, are really magnificent. Their colors get extremely vivid with cream colors going gold, and they are truly active, docile, and super friendly. The older/bigger ones NEVER bother the younger/smaller ones, and the younger/smaller ones get more bold, secure, and friendly as a result. You literally have no idea what you are missing. What bugs me though, is if a frog morph is found in the wild it is always "okay" to you, but if it is bred in captivity it is not, and yet you said the morphs interbreed in the wild? That makes no sense.
> (This entire commentary (above) is the work of the author, Rick Wascher, and the author alone writing a personal commentary.)


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rick Wascher said:


> FYI for Mr. Lotters:
> 
> USA Frog disagrees with your disgust and loves mixed race frogs too, because, unlike you, they love all of the colorful frogs without exception or bias! Thus, this issue is personal choice and freedom, not rifght or worng. So, USA Frog has chosen to breed, raise, and sell mixed race frogs as pets as well as the other varieties includng the CLASSIC ones. For your information, the mixed race frogs that disgust you so much, are really magnificent. Their colors get extremely vivid with cream colors going gold, and they are truly active, docile, and super friendly. The older/bigger ones NEVER bother the younger/smaller ones, and the younger/smaller ones get more bold, secure, and friendly as a result. You literally have no idea what you are missing. What bugs me though, is if a frog morph is found in the wild it is always "okay" to you, but if it is bred in captivity it is not, and yet you said the morphs interbreed in the wild? That makes no sense.
> (This entire commentary (above) is the work of the author, Rick Wascher, and the author alone writing a personal commentary.) (sic)


/facepalm

Why do you even bother with these tantrum filled rants when you know full well you're going to delete it all in a few days after the initial rage fades and you realize how foolish and damaging your excessively defensive tirade is?

Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to calm down, SIR!


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oh my gosh! He is building a straw man on top of another straw man. A logarithmic straw man if you will.

Someone should either give him a medal or measure him for a straight jacket.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

How many times will Ricky edit his "commentary"? I think his head is about to explode. I can see the steam pouring out of his ears as he crzily hacks away at his keyboard ... ...



Rick Wascher said:


> FYI for Mr. Lotters:
> 
> USA Frog disagrees with your disgust and loves mixed race frogs too, because, unlike you, they enjoy all of the colorful frogs without exception. Thus, this issue is personal choice and freedom, not right or wrong. Right or wrong to you, doesn't matter because there is no need for your approval. USA Frog has chosen to breed, raise, and sell mixed race frogs as pets, as well as the other varieties including the top quality CLASSIC ones from the best lines PROVEN to be the best. To you they are "wrong" because the mixed race frogs disgust YOU. That sounds a bit silly don't you think. What bugs me is if a frog morph is found in the wild it is always "okay" to you, but if it is bred in captivity it is not, and yet you said the morphs interbreed in the wild?
> 
> For your information, the mixed race frogs that disgust you so much, are really magnificent. You literally have no idea what you are missing.
> (This entire commentary (above) is the work of the author, Rick Wascher, and the author alone writing a personal commentary.)


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

He displays almost every cognative bias imaginable...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

HAHAHAHA!

Now Rick is calling his rant...

Conservation


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I wonder if constantly referring to Dr. Lotters as Mr is intentional. 
You know it is rage typing because of the sheer amount of errors. 
Doug I'm going to send you the correspondence from today. It was less than fruitful.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hey Rick, I have frogs from 5 different genre in my collection. That makes it more diverse than yours. That also makes me a more well rounded breeder than dfw too with more experience.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> He displays almost every cognative bias imaginable...


I know, right? I'm always amazed at when someone takes a very strong stance on an issue, has their reasoning fall apart, and without hesitation is able to repeatedly shift to a completely different argument almost as if _the arguments actually had no bearing on the conclusion, as if the conclusion is foregone and the arguments are used if they conveniently seem to support it._ This whole Dr. Lotters issue is a classic example. He was lauded as the ultimate expert over there. For God's sake, they "whole heartedly rejoiced in the truth presented by Lotters"! As soon as Dr. Lotter disagreed with them on ONE point (mixing morphs) Rick goes on the attack (on conservation no less?) and demonizes the man. Dr. Lotter went from being the most respected expert on the subject to an idiot and a hack because he disagreed with Rick on one point!

How does someone with that much hubris function from day to day? How can someone be so transparent and still have absolutely no insight into their own motivations. I honestly think he actually does feel betrayed by Dr. Lotter. That's some sad kind of crazy right there.


----------



## vachyner

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I've been following this thread for a while, and the thread before this one. This guy is a special breed and I can't believe he conducts himself on his publicly facing online store. Imagine walking into BestBuy to someone acting like this. I think the only place I've ever seen a business act so ridiculous and still have customers was in "Clerks". On the movie note, as I read these rants from this guy the only image that keeps coming to mind is Tom Cruise in "The Last Samurai" where they have him shot and surrounded while he violently thrashes about with that spear with the white tiger on it. Only, in this case I don't think the thrasher is going to win any hearts and minds.

-Chuck


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hahaha holy crap has anyone else read Ricks open letter response and the garbage posted above it on the conservation tab of their site? Screenshot/timestamp gold for sure. " He seems to want to extend his lab and his reach into our homes, businesses, and lives, rather than keeping his nose in the lab/jungle where it belongs." Yeah ok Rick that's why he added the whole bit about captive husbandry into his book and you've been quoting it for like 2 years now. That is exactly what he is doing. He has helped countless people, including your own family, out by writing a book to reach into our homes, businesses, and lives. And we have all been grateful for it, even you have too! I am pretty sure that was his intentions all along for writing the book hahaha! Actually it sounds like he thinks you're a pathetic weasle and doesnt want your pseudoscience mouth spewing diahhrea all over his letigmate work to your newbie customers. How much propaganda and paranoia do you mix into the koolaid in your house? Im starting to think that familys microwave has a hole in it or something...


----------



## vachyner

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I wonder if his kid is regretting wasting his tuition money on this yet?


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



vachyner said:


> I wonder if his kid is regretting wasting his tuition money on this yet?


If the 3 boys quit and went and got 40 hour a week jobs at mimimum wage, I think they would all feel both rich and relaxed. Especially after all the work to sell to LLL for $15/frog tops.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



JayMillz said:


> If the 3 boys quit and went and got 40 hour a week jobs at mimimum wage, I think they would all feel both rich and relaxed. Especially after all the work to sell to LLL for $15/frog tops.


*Boy

Two of them are men, old enough to vote, old enough to serve, old enough to not to hide behind daddy. In reality though, We only ever mention one here Dillion. And it is Rick who likes to use all three of his offspring as shields against criticism, as if they should be immune from it because of their age. At least he seems not to have enough sense not to drag his poor daughter into his mess anymore. Most of the criticism has been leveled at Rick anyway, and many, including myself, have actually spoken well of Dillion.

Rick has the audacity to paint this as though Lotters is attacking his kids now? (Edit:apparently in the span of time it took me to write this, Rick thought better of that accusation)The depths to which this man will sink, are apparently boundless. Drop the persecution complex, stop with the lies, fallacious arguments. Strawmen, and defamation. You and USA Frog are deserving of every ounce of criticism you receive.


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

WOW !! what a massive "frog up" this guy is !! 

[edited] to believe himself as suspected..
when he says

QUOTE" What bugs me is if a frog morph is found in the wild it is always "okay" to you, but if it is bred in captivity it is not, and yet you said the morphs interbreed in the wild? QUOTE"

he doesn't get it at all, that there's a diference between a fluke of nature versus forced to breed in captivity..
and he doesn't get that he's destroying the gene pools of captive breeding darts and that in return it will force the WC to renew his destrcution/mess of the hobby he created..

I'm into snakes and you get people like that in every hobby..
my favorite one is when some argue that in nature, snakes co-habit with rats, squirls, frogs and other snakes SO WHY can't i keep them together in a 4x2x2 tank ??? it works in nature !!!

it's a good thing that he keeps changing his rant and making himself look stupid going against the world's expert in the field.. anyone with half a brain cell will get curious and start researching them more , and guess WHAT Rick !!! they will find out the truth and the bonus would be places like LLL and others will stay away from you..


----------



## easternversant

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I know most people reading this are probably not swayed by the accusations leveled at DOCTOR Lotters, but I thought someone should actually defend him. Frankly, I feel bad for him. This backwash is part of the reason he didn't act on this in the first place when we told him in 2013. Although it is nonsense, it certainly must feel crappy to be accused of all these things.

Dr. Lotters cares very much not only about these frogs, but also about conservation. While he and his students continue to work on dendrobatids, Dr. Lotters has also put quite a lot of effort into studying _Atelopus_ frogs. Many of you are aware that this is one of the single most imperiled group of animals in the world. 

TLDR: Dr. Lotters cares about conservation, these libelous accusations against his person are hogwash.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I can assure you that Dr. Lotters is getting as much of a laugh out of this as we are.

I forwarded him one of Ricks earlier versions of his temper tantrum filled rant as well as the current one. His response was pretty funny to say the least.

Ignorance in this case is a dangerous thing. Of course Dr. Lotters understands and champions conservation. He Is an actual member of the ICUN Amphibian Specialist Group. He actually teaches Biology, you know, the kind of guy that Dillion might have learned something from.....


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I think that the fact he came forward to discredit the so call frog expert Rick and his twisted way of understanding the meanings in the book, will give him a million more times the positives versus the negatives. The few People who believed in Rick's thinking will clearly see how wrong he was.

Now people will know that in no way Dr. Lotters was in favor or agreed to anything that the warehouse expressed.
now they can't miss quote and use him as a back up.. anyone who knows about them and reads the rants will seek to know why, out of the blue , Rick turned on his mentor and is attacking a well respected expert on the subject.. 

He (Rick) can only lose at this.. the worlds outmost expert on the subject with thousands of hobbiest on his side versus that lone "frog up" that just doesn't get it..

his rants on his site are doing the exact opposite of what he's been trying to avoid all these years with the name changing of the company, and that's to attrack people to know more about them by veering them away from this site.. people are going to seek them out to find out what's the story and just a simple search will bring them here..
and that was the goal to begin with..

I see it as a win win, the more he rants , the deeper he digs himself in..

I love the smell of the warehouse sinking in the morning


----------



## vachyner

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



yeloowtang said:


> my favorite one is when some argue that in nature, snakes co-habit with rats, squirls, frogs and other snakes SO WHY can't i keep them together in a 4x2x2 tank ??? it works in nature !!!


Not to mention nature is incredibly violent and those creatures living together slaughter each other on a daily basis. Also, with him talking about nature's way of doing things, I would think a person with his spiritual persuasions would be more inclined to let nature take its course than force it to do what he wants in a glass box so he can make a buck. It's one thing if two morphs come together on their own in the wild, but forcing a change on his own is like him playing ....... You know...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> .....one of the undisputed experts in the field of wild Poison Frogs, albeit NOT captive bred frogs, Dr. Stefan Lotters (Germany)...


And yet, the book he coauthored has over 100 pages specifically devoted to captive husbandry. Much of the rest of the book, has principles that are easily applied as well. Each species account contains captive husbandry information. Wether Rick is willing to admit it or not, (look back to some of Dillion's early posts here for evidence that Dillion needed help treating disease in his frogs).


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> And yet, the book he coauthored has over 100 pages specifically devoted to captive husbandry. Much of the rest of the book, has principles that are easily applied as well. Each species account contains captive husbandry information. Wether Rick is willing to admit it or not, (look back to some of Dillion's early posts here for evidence that Dillion needed help treating disease in his frogs).


Seriously, would anyone be surprised to find out he never even owned the book? Based on his statements, I can't believe he's ever really read it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> Seriously, would anyone be surprised to find out he never even owned the book? Based on his statements, I can't believe he's ever really read it.


I'm thinking that, sadly, in this day and age, most Americans just don't buy books, and he is banking on, his target clientele, being uninformed, will take his lies at face value. This has always been his modus operandi.


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

talking about owning the book !!!

would anyone know where i could find a copy ??
you can PM me to not get the thread of course, but with all this, it's got me looking for it again  but all my sources come up with nothing.. many other books , but this is the one i want to find ...

thanks and sorry to derail..


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

You must not have looked that hard. There's a bunch on Amazon  
Amazon.com: Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry (9783930612628): Stefan Lotters, Karl-Heinz Jungfer, Friedrich Wilhelm Henkel, Wolfgang Schmidt: Books


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

sweet !! tanks

seriousely, i've tried amazon.ca, amazon.com, chapters and a bunch of other sites.. searched for both poison frogs and poison dart frogs...
was down to page 20 and started to see t-shirts and frog kites  never came up with this book ??? a tone of other books by many authors ,even still on my end, it's not poping up in the search... only with your link cvan i see it.. weird

but thanks for finding it 

ohhh !!! and to keep it on topic  I understand now why RICK mis-enterpreted the book just by reading the first review on it..

quote" Suffice to say, this book is aimed towards biology buffs and advanced hobbyists. A newbie might feel intimidated by the technical language and would probably be best off with either the Professional Breeder's series book on dart frogs or one of the other more layman oriented titles. end quote: :-D


since they've only kept dart 2-3 years at most, that book was to advanced for them to understand, his rant proves this !!!


----------



## BrainBug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> *Boy
> 
> Two of them are men, old enough to vote, old enough to serve, old enough to not to hide behind daddy. In reality though, We only ever mention one here Dillion. And it is Rick who likes to use all three of his offspring as shields against criticism, as if they should be immune from it because of their age. At least he seems not to have enough sense not to drag his poor daughter into his mess anymore. Most of the criticism has been leveled at Rick anyway, and many, including myself, have actually spoken well of Dillion.


Doug, these where my thoughts exactly when I was reading Rick's rants about Lotters attacking three "kids." 

The truly sad thing is that if Rick was not so involved in the business it would probably be doing way better and I can only assume that Dillion, who at one point was involved in the hobby and seemed enthusiastic about learning and participating on the threads, would have had better sense in how they went about doing things. I can picture in my head Dillion questioning producing and marketing hybrids and his father, more concerned with making money and not in touch with the hobby squashing his doubts.

Dillion as the implied mastermind of the business should be running things, he should be the voice of the company and he should be accountable for the business. 21 is a bit old to be hiding behind your father isn't it?


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



yeloowtang said:


> since they've only kept dart 2-3 years at most, that book was to advanced for them to understand, his rant proves this !!!


I seriously doubt that the amount of time they have spent in the hobby has anything to do with how they understood the book. I haven't looked at Dr. Lötters' book in a long time (I do not own a copy), but I don't believe it was so complicated that a newb couldn't understand if they were willing. Honestly, I would be surprised if a lawyer like Rick couldn't understand what it says. People like him are typically hired to find loopholes in much more complicated works than "Poison frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry". 

John


----------



## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I agree and also don't think the book id that complicated to understand. it was aimed more as a sarcasm 

It's most likely he wanted to understand what he decided to understand to fit his agenda.
BUT
on a side note, my brother in-law, cousin and uncle are all lawyers and believe me !! they have no clue what so ever about biology, mechanics,animals , science or home renovations at ALL. In fact my brother in-law was horrible in science and bioligy to the point he had to get his credits elswhere..

because someone is a lawyer by far doens't mean they are smart, they know how to proceed in a court of law, read trough books to find ways around laws and by-laws.. and hope they can sway the court in their way of understanding the phrasing, often rsulting in grey zones that need to be amended ( loopholes) and their clients get off by default, frustrating really but it's the way it's set up to be..
and even then, some are so horrible at it after all the years of University they wind up with a job completly unrelated and keep renwing their liscenc because it looks good on a CV, I know a few like that too


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



yeloowtang said:


> It's most likely he wanted to understand what he decided to understand to fit his agenda.


Yep, Rick is a classic example of one who suffers from confirmation bias.


----------



## Wusserton

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So I cant help but shake the feeling that USAfrog has been not only shamed by the community of serious enthusiasts but by Lötters himself and as much as I love to admit anything all they managed to accomplished is a very negative stance on their own business and honestly a promotion of Dr. Lötters book lol they are in damage control mode right now and based on inexperience are "trying to adjust" because honestly it could end that business based on public opinion backed by Lötters himself ...thinking the bros may be laying off the puppy farm soon.

Edited: They may consider firing Rick first, its the logical decision but finding a replacement in this market is going to be next to impossible so Im thinking they damaged themselves, and the damage is done.


----------



## Wusserton

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Yep, Rick is a classic example of one who suffers from confirmation bias.


Its a bad trait for a lawyer to lip off every chance they get on things they dont understand ...its an equally bad trait if not worse trait for a company to keep a lawyer like that around ...it shows their inexperience in any facet of life let alone the correct care of PDF's or ANY other frog species. <== extension "animals"


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Wusserton said:


> because honestly it could end that business based on public opinion backed by Lötters himself ...thinking the bros may be laying off the puppy farm soon.
> 
> .


Never happen.

The people who are buying frogs from Wavy Gravy and the Merry Pranksters have no clue who Mr Lotters is. Which again, make me wonder why he does all this nonsense
My latest response from Mr Gravy was "do we agree they`re just pet frogs right?"

To him they`re just "pet frogs" so whats the big deal


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Never happen.
> 
> The people who are buying frogs from Wavy Gravy and the Merry Pranksters have no clue who Mr Lotters is. Which again, make me wonder why he does all this nonsense
> My latest response from Mr Gravy was "do we agree they`re just pet frogs right?"
> 
> To him they`re just "pet frogs" so whats the big deal


That must be their new auto response since that is what they sent me as well.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Never happen.
> 
> The people who are buying frogs from Wavy Gravy and the Merry Pranksters have no clue who Mr Lotters is. Which again, make me wonder why he does all this nonsense
> My latest response from Mr Gravy was "do we agree they`re just pet frogs right?"
> 
> To him they`re just "pet frogs" so whats the big deal


Agreed. I don't think they are going anywhere, at least not because of Dr. Lotters letter. As ER says, they target an uninformed audience. The truth is they offer large frogs at very low prices and they (seem to) have a lot of them. Factor into that cheap labor, and they could probably wholesale frogs to shops and be quite successful for a long time.

They just wanted so badly to be respected as the "breeder of the best frogs" ( I still don't know what the hell that means) and as innovators (half their ideas where unoriginal and the other half are bad), that they've screwed themselves over and over. Extreme pride is a funny thing. It can really make you work against your own self interests, and for what? Just to be "right"?

People pay a lot of lip service (Waschers included) about "fighting for what you believe in" but they forget, that's only good advice if you happen to be right. If it turns out you're wrong and your stance is indefensible and irrelevant due to bias, then you're not sticking up for yourself, you're not fighting the fine fight, you're just an arse-hole.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Screw this. Can't beat them, joinem'

So I called and profusely apologized to Rick today. We agreed as restitution, I will serve as USA Frogs liaison to dendroboard for the foreseeable future. I've seen the light after Rick shared All their research with me. Their frogs really are the best and I'll soon be selling all my frogs to make my collection Designer, Rebel, Top Gun, and Safe! You guys really don't know what we have been missing out on for the past 2 years! No more limpwristed hobby frogs for me, I'm going TOPGUN BABY!


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Little early to be drinking Doug


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> Little early to be drinking Doug


It's never to early to drink if US dart is involved. Never too late either....


John


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Screw this. Can't beat them, joinem'
> 
> So I called and profusely apologized to Rick today. We agreed as restitution, I will serve as USA Frogs liaison to dendroboard for the foreseeable future. I've seen the light after Rick shared All their research with me. Their frogs really are the best and I'll soon be selling all my frogs to make my collection Designer, Rebel, Top Gun, and Safe! You guys really don't know what we have been missing out on for the past 2 years! No more limpwristed hobby frogs for me, I'm going TOPGUN BABY!


*SLAP*...Snap out of it man!

I step away to deal with real life for a while and Doug looses it... and after all his fine work with Lotters 

*No but seriously great job Doug and Dr. Lotters, and kudos to everyone else who keeps making fine points.*

I don't even know where to start... Still scanning what I've missed but I must say I'm very interested to see what happens when a human brain implodes in its own skull, and it seems like Rick is just days if not hours away from that. So, that should be interesting 

I think the way he turned on Lotters and tried to "reinterpret" Lotters position, (Rick, didn't reinterpreting in part get you into this mess?) putting words in his mouth is pretty crappy. Just continues to show a willingness to avoid and/or skew the truth to suit his agenda IMO.

I didn't see anywhere where Lotters said he is for wild imports because that is the only way to keep the hobby going? But what about sustainable projects like Tesoros, and the work Understory has done? ...I guess that is inconvenient to people who wanna create and corner the captive franken frog market. 

Honestly Rick's whole conservation angle is IMO just a thinly veiled attempt to attack a source of competition. No one seems to be saying they want all wild frogs, just that designer frogs put our captive populations at risk and few trust Rick and the kids to lead us into that brave new world. Arguing against franken frogs isn't the argument against captive breeding Rick would have you believe it is. Then there are all the good arguments made that point to how a designer dart hobby could hurt wild populations and our captive stock.

The attempts to out Lotters as anti conservationist are just laughable. Turns out their idol didn't agree with them, so now they try to throw the actual scientist/conservationist under the bus as part of the problem rather then the solution... Sad and pathetic Rick.

Lotters doesn't know what he is missing? ...Hmm something tells me the guy has probably seen a few hybrid darts in his day.

Oh and for those who might criticise a scientist for speaking out against hybrids... Big difference between creating some hybrids in controlled conditions for actual scientific purposes that won't be released into the hobby, and trying to create a designer frog hobby. If you can't see that, and how a scientist would make a distinction between the two acts... You're a moron.

*If someone hasn't already, I suggest forwarding the Lotters letterhead statement to LLL and anyone else suspected of dealing with USAfrog.*

If wholesale is the way they are off loading most of their frogs then constant pressure on those businesses buying is probably the way to go. Plus anything like the Lotters statement that supports the need for people to stay away from this company limits their sales and makes it less worth it to stay in business as time goes on. People who think we haven't accomplished anything are IMO kidding themselves. Just because they aren't out of business yet, doesn't mean their sales haven't took a huge hit from all the bad PR, (When was the last time someone openly admitted to buying a USAfrog?). A business can operate at a loss, or barely any profit for awhile but eventually circumstances (like market saturation from wholesaling so many common species), an economic downturn, a business mistake (cuz Rick never makes those!) are going to squeeze them when they don't have the profitability to survive. Ultimately if they are never out of business but instead relegated to some dark corner of the hobby then that is still a win because these people would be doing so much more damage if they were considered legit/mainstream hobby. The shakier their foundations and the current ground they stand on, the less likely they are to endure.

I'm pretty sure Rick's personal philosophy leads him to believe we should have dominion over and the right to use animals as we wish, especially if it turns a profit. Even if your personal philosophy is basically in line with that consider where that kinda thinking has gotten us. Not really the best angle to approach conservation, in fact it actually has led to the need for it probably more then anything. Much like "manifest destiny" which has destroyed countless native human populations, It is a dangerous idea when taken to far. Plus if you are one of those anti GMO "Monsanto is the devil" people, then consider this: USAfrog is the closest thing to a Monsanto we have in the hobby. If your principles tell you that kinda tampering is wrong or at least dangerous then you should probably extend those principles to your frog purchases.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Seriously guys.....



> If you only knew the power of the dark side.


----------



## FroggyKnight

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Seriously guys.....


And to that I must counter with an inspirational Yoda quote.



> Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.


Stay strong DB and beware the dark side 

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Screw this. Can't beat them, joinem'
> 
> So I called and profusely apologized to Rick today. We agreed as restitution, I will serve as USA Frogs liaison to dendroboard for the foreseeable future. I've seen the light after Rick shared All their research with me. Their frogs really are the best and I'll soon be selling all my frogs to make my collection Designer, Rebel, Top Gun, and Safe! You guys really don't know what we have been missing out on for the past 2 years! No more limpwristed hobby frogs for me, I'm going TOPGUN BABY!


Bwaaaaaa!

April Fools!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rick Wascher said:


> by Rick Wascher, "Dart Frog Dad"*
> Pro Bono* General Counsel for USA Frog


You know what they Say....

You get what you pay for.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well, Rick doubled down on the Lotters bashing. 



Rickdiculous said:


> Perhaps Mr. Lotters was unaware of the growing demand for colorful pet frogs in the United States, but why not first advocate using the cost effective resources and frog inventories already harvested from the wild and previously converted to pets to satisfy the demand for his "rainbow" of wild frogs, but why not take the opportunity to actively discourage additional wild frog harvests from his own laboratory (i.e., the wild)? *He seems to want to extend his lab and his reach into our homes, businesses, and lives, making sure others coform to his ways rather than keeping his attention focused to the conformance of his own life to himself where it belongs.*


All this because the man asked them to stop misrepresenting and selectively editing his work in an effort to push an agenda that he does not endorse. He asked you to stop lying about him. 



Rickdiculous said:


> This entire issue you have forced open and upon us is not about you or me, or some code people must follow to breed pet frogs. It is about personal choice and freedom which you seem to want to strip away by demanding conformance to your rules and way of life.


Would that be the freedom for you to piggyback Dr. Lotters name and reputation for months or years in order to lend validity to a practice that is contrary to his actual opinion? There's a word for that...lying. It's sort of a universal rule. He didn't come up with it. 



Rickdiculous said:


> This is America where liberty lives. There is no need or place for you or anyone to approve, or disapprove of what others do lawfully, and yet you have taken on this guardianship role and somehow think others need to obey you or be beat down in public by you and your followers. I have no idea where you get such a lofty notion of yourself—maybe from the people who worship you, but for me and my house, we serve THE Lord. HE is the Lord of liberty and freedom.


Again, guardianship role? The man asked you to stop lying about him, which incidentally, you are still doing. His is not anti-conservation. He did not advocate collecting wild caught frogs. He did not reach into anyone's home or make any rules about who could do what. He has not declared open season on anyone or anything. We all saw the letter. He asked you to stop implying that he was an advocate of your business model. He asked you to stop lying about him. What Lord do you serve, anyways? 



Rickdiculous said:


> To be clear, in addition to the top quality CLASSIC varieties of pet dart frogs from the numerous frog breeding activities and offspring comparisons USA Frog has used to PROVE which of the pet frog lines out there are truly the best, and yes that is a good thing from hard work, USA Frog, of its own accord and in the spirit of liberty as Americans, has chosen to breed, raise, and sell pet frogs of mixed race, and remain an eco-friendly company. Your requirement of conformance to be at peace in this world is not our responsibility. We do enjoy our liberty.


Ah, so it's a liberty thing? Please don't drag America into this. You have every right to breed and sell whatever you want, and we have every right to point out every single lie you employ to do so. Dr. Lotters has a right to an opinion as well. You don't have the right to slander the man or twist his words. My God, you used his use of the term "Rainbow of Colors" against him. You've quoted individual words or phrases from his open letter, but never in context, and never reflecting the original intent.

Rick, you better hope you're wrong about the THE Lord because I've read the book, and there's quite a bit about lying in there.


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

...he mixes lies with the truth....I know I've heard that somehwere and Rick continues to take this path. Did you ever wonder if Rick's lord is Satan, it certainly would explain his companies direction. Using America's freedom to do the wrong thing doesn't make it right, America gives you the freedom to do the wrong thing.....what's the next platform Rick, your kids are creative artists and they want to see what kind of kaleidascope of colors they can create by mixing and matching.
Do us this favor, don't breed frogs that are aggressive and will bite, I would hate for you to ruin our pet frog hobby.


----------



## vachyner

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



markpulawski said:


> Did you ever wonder if Rick's lord is Satan.


As I read this I got a picture in my mind of a mad scientist holding up a weird snake-bird-frog hybrid screaming "FOR THE GLORY OF SATAN!!" and I can't stop laughing.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Before it gets out of hand... 




Just a friendly reminder to please refrain from any references to religion.





Thank you,


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

He just can't stop ranting ...


Rick Wascher said:


> These frogs LOVE living in groups.
> Colorful groups are totally OKAY, even the experts say so!
> 
> by Rick Wascher, "Dart Frog Dad"
> Pro Bono General Counsel for USA Frog
> 
> This one is easy, but a lot of dart frog purists hate me for it. I'm too old to worry about that, and the truth is most important.
> 
> You DON'T need to house these frogs separately. Stay within age groups and use the FROGMATCH if you want to be sure.
> 
> Anybody telling you these frogs cannot be kept in colorful groups, long term, either doesn't know how to properly care for any of these frogs, or is telling you an agenda driven lie.
> 
> Yes, without a doubt you can keep frogs of different colors in groups. We have thousands of frogs and hundreds of enclosures. When we sell some 3-4 month old frogs and only one or two is left in an enclosure, we move them to an enclosure than can handle a couple more friends. They love it and every frog thrives. These frogs grow to maturity in colorful populations too.
> 
> What about long term? Some people don't like the thought of the frog colors breeding (same species of course), but that has NOTHING to do with frog compatibility in groups. In fact, if the different colored frogs bred from within a group as some fear, that tends to prove their compatibility, not disprove it. Thus, the concern over the frogs breeding is an indirect admission they CAN get along great. Those people just won't come out and say it, but Lotters did. They don't want you to breed the colors, even if you want to. (Some of the color morphs in the hobby today are mixed race frogs.)
> 
> Please don't believe the junk about not keeping them in groups and long term issues, that is garbage. Seriously, if you keep plenty of leaves, plenty of room, plenty of food and don't starve them, they get along great LONG TERM as in FOREVER until they die of old age.
> 
> But wait, you haven't been in this that long, how could you know? U.S Dart Frog (the breeder arm of USA Frog) has been raising these frogs for well over three (3) years, and doing what others said could NEVER be done. Check it out, people said NOBODY could ever raise these frogs as a business and be successful at it. I agree if you do things the old way, but USA Frog doesn't do what others say cannot be done. That's the point. When someone says "it cannot be done", they have a plan for failure. USA Frog does not conform to the old ways and has success in not doing so, albeit much to the chagrin of the critics.
> 
> To the question, when Dendrobate frogs reach maturity at 13-18 mos. of age or so, they have arrived at their top tier of their lives. USA Frog has over 360 pairs of breeder frogs cycled for optimum health of course, and approximately 250 more pairs planned. Those 250 are in multiple male/female groups right now. This breeder stock represents just about all of the varieties of Dendrobates and many, many, lineages within each. Their frog resources and innovations are impressive, and yes they know groups are okay, and prove it everday! (Sorry for the tone of that one. It is somewhat aggravating to know the spew of disinformation out there is intended to mislead people.)
> 
> What is the key? Socializing the frogs is HUGE, and that means keeping them in groups from the time they morphed into a frog. Still, socialising is nothing more than nurturing and caring for them with love and attention, rather than treating them a a living dollar to be sold as soon as possible as some do. USA Frog does NOT do what others do, for if they did, they could never do what they do, i.e., have this success with frogs. Please know, in departing from the old info USA Frog is highly skilled, innovative and successful on what works—not what doesn't work.
> 
> What about the females fighting for dominance? These frogs are captive bred as pets. They were raised in a group from a froglet with a tail, and into maturity in smaller groups. We find the males and females are happy and CHOOSE their mates, and don't fight for one, ever. Maybe wild frogs do, or their frogs do, but not USA Frog NEVERWILD™ SAFE® captive bred pet frogs.
> 
> Will they breed? Sure could! When they reach maturity they definitely could, but they won't be inharmonious. THIS is why people say don't keep them in groups. It is NOT because you cannot do it successfully, or the frogs won't get along, it is because they want to make sure you obey their rules and prevent the colors from mixing. Still, if you choose to raise and sell offspring, when you see them starting to pair off and find a mate, then separating them is good for production—the eggs don't get trampled by other frogs, etc.
> 
> Do what you want and ENJOY these amazing animals, PLEASE! These are PET frogs.
> 
> (work in progress)


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Ricky's latest effort to embarrass himself, his sons, and their company.....

Another minute inside Rick Wascher's head...



Rick Wascher said:


> This one is easy, but a lot of dart frog purists hate me for it. I'm too old to worry about that, and the truth is most important.
> 
> You DON'T need to house these frogs separately. Stay within age groups and use the FROGMATCH if you want to be sure.
> 
> Anybody telling you these frogs cannot be kept in colorful groups, long term, either doesn't know how to properly care for any of these frogs, or is telling you an agenda driven lie.
> 
> Yes, without a doubt you can keep frogs of different colors in groups. We have thousands of frogs and hundreds of enclosures. When we sell some 3-4 month old frogs and only one or two is left in an enclosure, we move them to an enclosure than can handle a couple more friends. They love it and every frog thrives. These frogs grow to maturity in colorful populations too.
> 
> What about long term? Some people don't like the thought of the frog colors breeding (same species of course), but that has NOTHING to do with frog compatibility in groups. In fact, if the different colored frogs bred from within a group as some fear, that tends to prove their compatibility, not disprove it. Thus, the concern over the frogs breeding is an indirect admission they CAN get along great. Those people just won't come out and say it, but Lotters did. They don't want you to breed the colors, even if you want to. (Some of the color morphs in the hobby today are mixed race frogs.)
> 
> Please don't believe the junk about not keeping them in groups and long term issues, that is garbage. Seriously, if you keep plenty of leaves, plenty of room, plenty of food and don't starve them, they get along great LONG TERM as in FOREVER until they die of old age.
> 
> But wait, you haven't been in this that long, how could you know? U.S Dart Frog (the breeder arm of USA Frog) has been raising these frogs for well over three (3) years, and doing what others said could NEVER be done. Check it out, people said NOBODY could ever raise these frogs as a business and be successful at it. I agree if you do things the old way, but USA Frog doesn't do what others say cannot be done. That's the point. When someone says "it cannot be done", they have a plan for failure. USA Frog does not conform to the old ways and has success in not doing so, albeit much to the chagrin of the critics.
> 
> To the question, when Dendrobate frogs reach maturity at 13-18 mos. of age or so, they have arrived at their top tier of their lives. USA Frog has over 360 pairs of breeder frogs cycled for optimum health of course, and approximately 250 more pairs planned. Those 250 are in multiple male/female groups right now. This breeder stock represents just about all of the varieties of Dendrobates and many, many, lineages within each. Their frog resources and innovations are impressive, and yes they know groups are okay, and prove it everday! (Sorry for the tone of that one. It is somewhat aggravating to know the spew of disinformation out there is intended to mislead people.)
> 
> What is the key? Socializing the frogs is HUGE, and that means keeping them in groups from the time they morphed into a frog. Still, socialising is nothing more than nurturing and caring for them with love and attention, rather than treating them a a living dollar to be sold as soon as possible as some do. USA Frog does NOT do what others do, for if they did, they could never do what they do, i.e., have this success with frogs. Please know, in departing from the old info USA Frog is highly skilled, innovative and successful on what works—not what doesn't work.
> 
> What about the females fighting for dominance? These frogs are captive bred as pets. They were raised in a group from a froglet with a tail, and into maturity in smaller groups. We find the males and females are happy and CHOOSE their mates, and don't fight for one, ever. Maybe wild frogs do, or their frogs do, but not USA Frog NEVERWILD™ SAFE® captive bred pet frogs.
> 
> Will they breed? Sure could! When they reach maturity they definitely could, but they won't be inharmonious. THIS is why people say don't keep them in groups. It is NOT because you cannot do it successfully, or the frogs won't get along, it is because they want to make sure you obey their rules and prevent the colors from mixing. Still, if you choose to raise and sell offspring, when you see them starting to pair off and find a mate, then separating them is good for production—the eggs don't get trampled by other frogs, etc.
> 
> Do what you want and ENJOY these amazing animals, PLEASE! These are PET frogs.
> 
> (work in progress)


Dang it Donn! Sorry for reposting the same drivel.

So much fail, not even really worth a response until it is no longer a "Work in Progress".


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So what I get from that is. We (USAFROG) ,that don't ever test because we don't feel the need, promote taking said untested frogs from one viv to another in hopes to move the pathogens to every frog.
Rick you keep spouting this crap about long term this and that but its been 2 freaking years since you started. How the hell would you know a damn thing about long term?
I have popsicles in my freezer that have been around longer. Here is an idea. just stop man. You make yourself look more foolish every time you change your site.


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What cracks me up is why is Rick posting anything at all about the Lotters letter? The people who buy his frogs haven't read it or know it was sent. All he had to do was take down the Lotters references and move on. None of his customers would have been any the wiser. Instead he goes on this crazy rant that he keeps editing, making him look even crazier.

He didn't need Lotters in the first place. All he had to say was, "We are starting a company that is going to make money selling frogs. We will try to produce the best frogs possible. We plan on offering purebred frogs and hybrid frogs (even though it is contrary to the feeling of the majority of those in the hobby) because we think that there is a market for the hybrids and we can make money selling them."
He didn't need to bring science into it to justify his position. Most of this thread is not about how horrible mixing is, its about how he bastardized the science to make it look like it supported his agenda. He didn't need to explain why he chose to mix anymore than the other herp breeders that mix morphs or species. Did he think he had come across this enlightening information in the Lotters book that was going to convince the hobby as a whole that it was OK? (Is there a shaking your head emoticon?)


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



phender said:


> What cracks me up is why is Rick posting anything at all about the Lotters letter? The people who buy his frogs haven't read it or know it was sent. All he had to do was take down the Lotters references and move on. None of his customers would have been any the wiser. Instead he goes on this crazy rant that he keeps editing, making him look even crazier.


That's just it though. It's not the thinking of a rational mind, nor does he even have a consumer in mind when he does these rants. It is now more about the battle against the hobby. 
I can picture him sitting in a dimly lit room cursing this thread and all of us evil hobbyist ruining his life. He may say that he is to old to worry about the hate but this is a man that fury types on a near daily basis.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



phender said:


> What cracks me up is why is Rick posting anything at all about the Lotters letter? The people who buy his frogs haven't read it or know it was sent. All he had to do was take down the Lotters references and move on. None of his customers would have been any the wiser. Instead he goes on this crazy rant that he keeps editing, making him look even crazier.
> 
> He didn't need Lotters in the first place. All he had to say was, "We are starting a company that is going to make money selling frogs. We will try to produce the best frogs possible. We plan on offering purebred frogs and hybrid frogs (even though it is contrary to the feeling of the majority of those in the hobby) because we think that there is a market for the hybrids and we can make money selling them."
> He didn't need to bring science into it to justify his position. Most of this thread is not about how horrible mixing is, its about how he bastardized the science to make it look like it supported his agenda. He didn't need to explain why he chose to mix anymore than the other herp breeders that mix morphs or species. Did he think he had come across this enlightening information in the Lotters book that was going to convince the hobby as a whole that it was OK? (Is there a shaking your head emoticon?)


Oh but who know exactly why.... One word.

EGO


----------



## markpulawski

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> Before it gets out of hand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a friendly reminder to please refrain from any references to religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you,


oops sorry I missed a lot of the religious rhetoric.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

At this point, I believe I may be content to sit back and watch Mr. Phenotype self destruct ...


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



yeloowtang said:


> wonder if we can post the letter everywhere else, on kingsnake, BOI, every forume out there.. just to show him how strongly the hobby really disagrees with him. send it to every major wholesalers he could sell too.


Didn't someone already start a DFW thread on the Fauna or Kingsnake BOI? I think I remember it not progressing very far since the company in question wasn't guilty of any actual legal infraction, or taking funds without shipping (which seems to be the entirety of what the rest of the herp world is concerned about). Maybe adding the Lotters letter to that conversation would add some weight in the eyes of the general herping public.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dane said:


> Didn't someone already start a DFW thread on the Fauna or Kingsnake BOI? I think I remember it not progressing very far since the company in question wasn't guilty of any actual legal infraction, or taking funds without shipping (which seems to be the entirety of what the rest of the herp world is concerned about). Maybe adding the Lotters letter to that conversation would add some weight in the eyes of the general herping public.


I considered that, but the BOI really isn't really the place for this kind of thing. They're certainly bad guys, but not in the context of the BOI. I think best case there is that, in spite of Dr. Lotters telling them to cease and desist using his work, they are STILL *PURPOSFULLY AND INTENTIONALLY* refusing to comply with his request that they not use his intellectual property, if anything that does in a way constitute theft. It would be like, as in some threads, people using the pics of others to represent animals that are not their own has been reported.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*Alright, I'm temporarily closing this thread to make sure more people see this notice. We had to give someone some time off for taking things too far with the ad hominem attacks and posting images unrelated to the discussion. We DO NOT want to have to keep getting involved in this thread and if you can't keep it clean and somewhat respectful, just don't post here. We were doing well for a while, lets not ruin it for everybody.

So, with that said, please take notice of what is posted on the first page of this thread:*

*This thread is being created as a companion to the original
"Dart Frog Warehouse" thread.*​
Feel free to continue your discussions here. We understand that you all have concerns and issues you want to discuss. This thread is a platform for you to continue to do that. However, keep in mind that it is still a moderated section of the forum. As such, it is expected that you keep the content within the confines of the *User Agreement*


A couple things to keep in mind:


User Agreement said:


> DB requires each member to maintain a respectful, friendly, and civil approach to every discussion, posting, chat, image, advertisement, etc





User Agreement said:


> Each DB member is strictly forbidden from posting, writing, displaying, discussing or causing to be posted, written, displayed, or discussed any abusive, obscene, vulgar, hateful, libelous, threatening, or sexually-oriented material or, further, any other material that may violate any applicable law.




Since we have had problems with it in the past, any mention of religion in this thread will result in an immediate BAN from the site (length determined at the judgement of the Moderator)

Also, leave your memes/youtube videos at home.

Keep it clean everyone...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> Pet Dart Frogs on Sale - SAFE® - Buy Dart Frogs > Open Letter
> Open Letter
> Having a true passion for colorful frogs, Team USA Frog (led by Dillon) learned about the dart frog hobby— where color forms and variety are highly revered and protected. USA Frog began as a loyal hobbyist, but there was a place inside where we loved not only the pure color forms, but simple colorful pet frogs (hybrids) that are not part of the hobby. ALL of the unique colors and patterns of these frogs are what make them so super cool and magnificent.
> 
> Today, it is safe to say USA Frog had grossly underestimated the extreme loyalty some dart frog hobbyists have for their beloved frogs. Still, we do understand that love in much the same way, and differently too. So how does anyone pursue the depths of the hobby purity as USA Frog has in determining the best lines to sell, and have family fun with the colorful pet frog hybrids specifically bred for the pet frog market, i.e., people who are not hobbyists and just want a pretty family pet frog?
> 
> Team USA Frog has taken this opportunity to segregate their passions. This site will be reworked to pay deference to the dart frog hobby and the roots we admire too, despite what some people have said about us. Hopefully, over time, this ill will can be repaired as we continue to offer great frogs that are pure to the hobby standard of high quality as before. As for Mr. Stefan Lotters, we have already taken steps to mend that relationship as well.
> 
> As to hybrids, we will also have a pet frog site specifically designed for the hybrid pet frog with clear and open statements that those frogs do not meet any hobby standard. We will also say the hybrids are not pure color forms acceptable to the dart frog hobby. They are high quality and perfect health, and we do know a lot about them, e.g., "hybrid vigor" helps makes them special too. We will also say the frogs we will offer as hybrid pet frogs are sometimes called "mutts", but they sure are pretty, friendly, and just plain old-fashioned fun to watch and own. For our hobby customers, you will continue to get pure color forms of TOPGUN quality, health, beauty, size and strength, as before, but without the distraction of hybrids on the same site. (Also, NO hobby frogs will be offered on the hybrid frog site.)
> 
> We regret any inconvenience and hostility we may have caused to the hobby or anyone. We simply let our passion for frogs and frog breeding lead us to a place of division with the classic hobbyist, and that was not intended. We DO simply love these colorful frogs, enjoy caring for them and getting others involved. We will endeavor to be better hobby friends too, and share more of what we know "for what it’s worth", and go from there. In that way, the hybrid frogs we will sell somewhere else are the best start for someone wanting to own a frog, but not wanting to take on the dart frog hobby responsibilities, and we will say that too. This will allow us to share our passion for these frogs across the board.
> 
> P.S. Please give us a couple days. We have a lot of fixing to do to put this site in proper form.


Well well well......

Credit where credit is due, this is a step in the right direction. I remain a skeptic, and will reserve commentary for later to see how this develops, with the exception to say this:

I will always remain steadfastly resolute in the rejection of hybrid frogs, mixed morph frogs, etc. It is our hobby's love and admiration for natural forms of these animals that makes us special. So long as USA Frog remains insistent on the creation of these hybrids, I will not support and will encourage others not to support them, *ESPECIALLY * new hobbyist who are absolutly the worst possible outlet for these animals. Others may feel differently, but this is, and will always be my position. Mixed morphs, hybrids, mutts, designers, no matter what name is used will forever be a non starter.

USA Frog,

Thank you for taking this very much needed first step in the healing process for the damage you have caused. 

Doug


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Doug as always thank you for bringing things to us. I like many others won't go to their website. 
Again Rick and or Dillon it's Dr. Lotters. He didn't spend all that time in college, write an original thesis and devote decades to the advancement of amphibian education to be called Mr.

I wonder if when they told me to stay tuned last week through an email saying they owed apologies this statement was already in the works.
This is a start. You may be splitting your site but the damage you have done and seem to want to continue will not be forgotten.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> Team USA Frog has taken this opportunity to segregate their passions. This site will be reworked to pay greater deference to the dart frog hobby and the roots we admire too.


Already disappointed and discouraged.... Notice the omission from the previous version. I hope this is just a work in progress Rick.

If anyone deserves an apology and an outright retraction, it is *Dr.* Stefan Lotters, whom, you shamelessly, willfully, and intentionally defamed with deplorable and abhorrent libel.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

So now their big statement has been cut down to this.
I think that someone's ego made him get out of bed and make changes.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well short of them going out of business this is probably the next best step in a good direction; *But personally I feel it is to little to late.* They've burned far to many bridges and scorched the earth behind them the last couple years IMO to just chalk this all up to a big misunderstanding. If anything it just suggests to me that Rick finally realized he had gone way to far, and if it wasn't already hurting business that it was likely to soon. If you think the bottom line isn't motivating this like it seems to have motivated everything else they've said/done, then I think you are kidding yourself. 

When Lotters spoke out about his works misrepresentation and his personal opinion on a designer frog hobby Rick painted him as some anti conservation devil who supposedly saw inbreeding and wild frog harvest as the only viable ways to meet demand for frogs. Frankly in my opinion that goes beyond just putting words in the mans mouth to being yet another outright lie. Then there is all the past BS they'll pulled... that doesn't just get erased IMO with this open letter tactic. We've seen Rick back track before and try to smooth things over when he (IMO) lied about plans to create mixed morph frogs in the first place, trying to say it was just a business tactic not an actual lie.

I see separating the business into 2 websites as just the smallest of concessions.* Doesn't actually sound like they plan to stop doing most of what it was that was pissing everyone off*, just rebranding/repackaging it a bit to make it easier to swallow. In fact Rick may just see this an an opportunity to switch websites and/or use another business name that is less familiar to us all after this drama. We know that is a tactic they've favored in the past.

So a step in the right direction? ...Maybe, but *I think anyone who believes these people suddenly stopped believing their own BS are kidding themselves.* I think they've done more then enough to permanently loose their place in this hobby. Remember these are still the people that (IMO) lied about their designer frog agenda, pushed pseudoscience, conspiracy theories trashing other breeders and businesses, used sleazy marketing tactics even after criticism, and defamed the respected scientist who's work they misrepresented when he spoke up in his own defense, and just generally (and repeatedly) disrespected an entire hobby community, etc...etc...

Keep your eyes open, and your wallets shut, we haven't really gotten much of anything we want... yet.

Just another website edit... take it with the same grain of salt all the other ones deserved.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

How friggin cool would it be if this nightmare could finally end.

C`mon Rick, work with the hobby..not against us, we're not the enemy.

Imagine not having to make this thread a part of our`s lives daily.

and Tom getting some sleep at night


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

At this point makes no difference what they say. IMO damage is done. Never will there be a USA,Rebel,Top Gun,American, or any other frog that comes from them in my collection. Trust is the issue for me. In the short time they have been in business they have considerably narrowed the pool of people that I will purchase from. They continue to pump out hybrids, even though they have seen the error in their ways. Trust is a very important thing in this hobby , they will never have mine. And their knee jerk bashing of Dr. Lotters. Despicable! They say they will sell their stock or what it is. Will LLL. or the other stores we don't know about? I bet not. They have made a hot mess! And I think it's gonna be nxt to impossible to clean up.


----------



## Charlie Q

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> I see separating the business into 2 websites as just the smallest of concessions.* Doesn't actually sound like they plan to stop doing most of what it was that was pissing everyone off*


This. I thought the same thing. I am just glad that they stopped bashing the good Dr. (At least for the moment)


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I agree. They have done sooo much damage that this was their only option. They think they are going to appease the hobby with this statement. It is my opinion that this is a last ditch effort to get the bad press that circles them to lessen. With as vain as they are and as steadfast as they have been I don't see any other reason why they would do this other than they are drowning in stock that they can't move.


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Going back to before the thread was locked...

Rick wrote when they have 1 or 2 frogs in a container they just dump them in with others. No one in that house has ever worked any kind of job where cross contamination was a concern. And they never tested anything. It is way too late for that place with their mediocre and amateur/cheap/lazy/irresponsible/greasy practices. I will never consider a purchase from them even with the BS 2 year late apology. I wouldn't even take a DFW rescue frogs in for free. Just go away Rick.


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

As of today this was still up on their site



EVERY INNOVATIVE BUSINESS HAS CRITICS, AND MOSTLY FROM THOSE THAT SELECTIVELY ACCEPT CHANGE.

What's up with the critics on the dart frog hobby boards?*

This is a funny one really. There are two (2) schools of thought on these frogs. There is the majority, scientific expert, view of*Lotters et al., which we advance, and there is the minority view some advance. Lotters and the gang present official genetic studies, scientific reviews from a ton of sources, and have basically compiled and presented the overwhelming weight of proofs for how these frogs should be treated and officially classified as living creatures world over. Their knowledge base partially comprises the majority view, with the remainder filled in by commn sense, and data. Then there is the minority hobby view, albeit driven by a few in pursuit of their own agenda and desire to keep things controlled for profit, security, or both.**

Still, this all boils down to one issue:*Species!**

The official nomenclature (i.e., official terms) for the official taxonomy (official classification system of living things), officially classifying these frogs as living creatures calls their genus Dendrobates. Underneath the genus is species, and only species.*

Dendrobates frogs, including ALL, each and every, official record worldwide on the subject, including any and all official bodies of science and every real scieintist who knows about these frogs everywhere, of course including the experts Lotters et al., ALL, without exception or equivocation, unanimously say Dendrobate dart frogs are officially categorized by species alone and NOTHING MORE. The OFFICIAL species are: Tinctorius, Auratus, Leucomelas, Truncatus and one other species believed to be extinct.*

The minority view would like the official classification to include the hobby names such as "powder grey" for a powder grey legged frog, and "cobalt" named for a frog with dark cobalt blue legs, "Bumblebee" for a Leucomerlas colored black and yellow like a bumblebee, and "Costa Rican green & black" for frogs that are green & black and found in Costa Rica. As you might expect the hobby names are given names, i.e., names given to the frogs often by the person first importing them, e.g., the patricia frog imported by Patricia something. Those names do not rise to the level of species, and never should. Anyone advocating the hobby names are official should know what the experts say on this point (See the blue box below.)


See, the*Frog Facts*section for a complete summary.*

For completeness, some say the genetic differences attributable to appearance differences between frogs mean there is a species difference too. Again, Lotters and the gang thought of this too and and explain it away many times in their treatise. Genetics attributable to appearance differences between frogs that look different does NOT determine species no matter how desirous the individual advocate, for the same reason each living person today would also be their own species on the same nonsense theory, because we all look different.*

You may wish to read our*Customer Reviews*for what people who actually deal with us have to sa


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> As of today this was still up on their site
> 
> 
> 
> EVERY INNOVATIVE BUSINESS HAS CRITICS, AND MOSTLY FROM THOSE THAT SELECTIVELY ACCEPT CHANGE.
> 
> What's up with the critics on the dart frog hobby boards?*
> 
> This is a funny one really. There are two (2) schools of thought on these frogs. There is the majority, scientific expert, view of*Lotters et al., which we advance, and there is the minority view some advance. Lotters and the gang present official genetic studies, scientific reviews from a ton of sources, and have basically compiled and presented the overwhelming weight of proofs for how these frogs should be treated and officially classified as living creatures world over. Their knowledge base partially comprises the majority view, with the remainder filled in by commn sense, and data. Then there is the minority hobby view, albeit driven by a few in pursuit of their own agenda and desire to keep things controlled for profit, security, or both.**
> 
> Still, this all boils down to one issue:*Species!**
> 
> The official nomenclature (i.e., official terms) for the official taxonomy (official classification system of living things), officially classifying these frogs as living creatures calls their genus Dendrobates. Underneath the genus is species, and only species.*
> 
> Dendrobates frogs, including ALL, each and every, official record worldwide on the subject, including any and all official bodies of science and every real scieintist who knows about these frogs everywhere, of course including the experts Lotters et al., ALL, without exception or equivocation, unanimously say Dendrobate dart frogs are officially categorized by species alone and NOTHING MORE. The OFFICIAL species are: Tinctorius, Auratus, Leucomelas, Truncatus and one other species believed to be extinct.*
> 
> The minority view would like the official classification to include the hobby names such as "powder grey" for a powder grey legged frog, and "cobalt" named for a frog with dark cobalt blue legs, "Bumblebee" for a Leucomerlas colored black and yellow like a bumblebee, and "Costa Rican green & black" for frogs that are green & black and found in Costa Rica. As you might expect the hobby names are given names, i.e., names given to the frogs often by the person first importing them, e.g., the patricia frog imported by Patricia something. Those names do not rise to the level of species, and never should. Anyone advocating the hobby names are official should know what the experts say on this point (See the blue box below.)
> 
> 
> See, the*Frog Facts*section for a complete summary.*
> 
> For completeness, some say the genetic differences attributable to appearance differences between frogs mean there is a species difference too. Again, Lotters and the gang thought of this too and and explain it away many times in their treatise. Genetics attributable to appearance differences between frogs that look different does NOT determine species no matter how desirous the individual advocate, for the same reason each living person today would also be their own species on the same nonsense theory, because we all look different.*
> 
> You may wish to read our*Customer Reviews*for what people who actually deal with us have to sa


Ya all that ignores that many if not most of these frogs haven't met in the wild in the last 100 years or more. They use the few cases where some overlap to justify mixing all frogs of the same species. They also ignore the hobby's desire to keep frogs as representative of a specific population as possible, as I guess just being stupid. 

Instead they make the decision for us, and that is one of the reasons that I oppose them in this hobby. They have no trouble telling the entire hobby community how things are supposed to be, then acting on their beliefs with no thought to the repercussions for the rest of us and what we want, when we were here first and will be after they are gone. Said it many times before, but *they do not exist in a vacuum, and what they do does effect us, (They just don't seem to care as long as they make a buck).* 

Taking that down, and respecting the hobby communities wishes by not mixing morphs and ceasing to make decisions for us without a dialog would be the first real step towards repairing some of the damage they've done. Not holding my breath


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I like to think of it like a pool. And truthfully we are a small pool. USA frog is standing there wizzing right in it. Then they say if you don't like it swim on the other side. Guess what, all the proverbial tinkle will make it to our side one day. 
I for one have decided months ago that i don't swim there anymore. I bought no morphs they offer after they opened their doors (not on purpose just worked out that way) and I now buy frogs that they IMO will never have the skill to work with. Thumbs and pums are not popular enough for them to even risk it. Besides convincing people new to the hobby to buy a frog the size of a eraser head would be a hard sell.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

How do you justify a statement like this:



Rick said:


> This is a funny one really. There are two (2) schools of thought on these frogs. There is the majority, scientific expert, view of*Lotters et al., which we advance, and there is the minority view some advance. Lotters and the gang present official genetic studies, scientific reviews from a ton of sources, and have basically compiled and presented the overwhelming weight of proofs for how these frogs should be treated and officially classified as living creatures world over. Their knowledge base partially comprises the majority view, with the remainder filled in by commn sense, and data. Then there is the minority hobby view, albeit driven by a few in pursuit of their own agenda and desire to keep things controlled for profit, security, or both.**


...when you've lambasted Dr. Lotters elsewhere on your site? Is this the same Dr. Lotters that wrote you a letter personally telling you that you were misrepresenting his work and that you're actions were "disgusting"? I guess it's nice to see an ounce of humility in the form of an "almost-apology" but I don't really see how splitting the company up changes anything. I think it's a pretty transparent attempt to sequester the criticism from USAfrog specifically. 

That's not going to work at this point.

I would love Rick to address the actual logical concerns as to why the promotion of crossbred frogs are bad for the future of dart frog keeping, instead of inventing or expanding upon personal criticisms that have been leveled at you. I invited you to a mutually respectful discussion of the issue and I got your form letter, but nothing further, so I'll answer your question again here, in case you missed it. Yes, these are pet frogs, never to be reintroduced into the wild. Now can we please discuss the real issue? 

Your name is poison among frog keepers so I don't see any chance for you there, but you do seem to produce large frogs at competitive prices. You could probably do well in the wholesale market. It just would be in everyone's best interests if you weren't flooding the wholesale market with diseased or crossbred frogs. With a few tweaks in your business model those issues could be addressed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Your basic business model is flawed. I don't know if you're legitimately ignorant about some of the statements you make, or if you're just determined to be seen as an innovator and so have chosen "innovations" that have minimum short term negatives. Either way you target the ignorant and uninformed. The problem is either they will leave the hobby, or they will become educated. In either case you lose a customer and, in the latter, gain a critic.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> I like to think of it like a pool. And truthfully we are a small pool. USA frog is standing there wizzing right in it. Then they say if you don't like it swim on the other side. Guess what, all the proverbial tinkle will make it to our side one day.
> I for one have decided months ago that i don't swim there anymore. I bought no morphs they offer after they opened their doors (not on purpose just worked out that way) and I now buy frogs that they IMO will never have the skill to work with. Thumbs and pums are not popular enough for them to even risk it. Besides convincing people new to the hobby to buy a frog the size of a eraser head would be a hard sell.


That is actually a really good analogy. If they could pee in their own pool and not in mine at the same time, I'd say have at it... but they can't. 

...And at this point I don't trust Rick and the kids to not climb the fence and pee in my pool just for giggles.



Boondoggle said:


> How do you justify a statement like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...when you've lambasted Dr. Lotters elsewhere on your site? Is this the same Dr. Lotters that wrote you a letter personally telling you that you were misrepresenting his work and that you're actions were "disgusting"? I guess it's nice to see an ounce of humility in the form of an "almost-apology" but I don't really see how splitting the company up changes anything. I think it's a pretty transparent attempt to sequester the criticism from USAfrog specifically.
> 
> That's not going to work at this point.
> 
> I would love Rick to address the actual logical concerns as to why the promotion of crossbred frogs are bad for the future of dart frog keeping, instead of inventing or expanding upon personal criticisms that have been leveled at you. I invited you to a mutually respectful discussion of the issue and I got your form letter, but nothing further, so I'll answer your question again here, in case you missed it. Yes, these are pet frogs, never to be reintroduced into the wild. Now can we please discuss the real issue?
> 
> Your name is poison among frog keepers so I don't see any chance for you there, but you do seem to produce large frogs at competitive prices. You could probably do well in the wholesale market. It just would be in everyone's best interests if you weren't flooding the wholesale market with diseased or crossbred frogs. With a few tweaks in your business model those issues could be addressed.
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again. Your basic business model is flawed. I don't know if you're legitimately ignorant about some of the statements you make, or if you're just determined to be seen as an innovator and so have chosen "innovations" that have minimum short term negatives. Either way you target the ignorant and uninformed. The problem is either they will leave the hobby, or they will become educated. In either case you lose a customer and, in the latter, gain a critic.


LoL, is Rick sending that "Pet frogs" line to everyone? 

No where do the scientists that I've know of say that because they are the same species it is ok to mix the different populations in captivity. In fact we know of at least one example where they went out of their way to discourage it both in the book and on university letter head later when their work was misinterpreted (Lotters). Rick's idea of common sense, seems to be a pretty uncommon version of it.

How about not lying, omitting, skewing, and/or reinterpreting info to suit your agenda when it point blank discourages it as irresponsible in the source material, or defaming the guy who wrote the source material; then you wouldn't be in this predicament... That is my version of common sense


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> LoL, is Rick sending that "Pet frogs" line to everyone?
> 
> :


That`s the response I got from my last 2 e-mails.

I don`t know what the hell I bothered for..

Wait I remember...I despise him


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> That`s the response I got from my last 2 e-mails.
> 
> I don`t know what the hell I bothered for..
> 
> Wait I remember...I despise him


Yep just pet frogs, no reason to respect the integrity of the species, or the morph. Worked out so well every other time other animal hobbies ignored such things... Silly us.

Sure we can have a designer frog hobby with no fear that people who don't know better or don't care will pass animals off as something they aren't when an entire community has given them tacit approval to do so by shutting up about all the problems it could cause and the people peddling them... Silly us.

And why not have the guy who straight up lied (IMO) about plans to mix and sell frogs be the one to usher in this new niche of the hobby? ...Silly us.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Not surprisingly their open letter is, nowhere to be found, and was gone almost as quickly as it went up. it is starting to look like even this very small step was too good to be true.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Not surprisingly their open letter is, nowhere to be found, and was gone almost as quickly as it went up. it is starting to look like even this very small step was too good to be true.


They went back on their word ...I am shocked 

Aw snap! ...I almost broke a hip! Who left this puddle of sarcasm here?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Dendro Dave said:


> They went back on their word ...I am shocked
> 
> Aw snap! ...I almost broke a hip! Who left this puddle of sarcasm here?


We will see. Maybe too much of an assumption just yet? I mean the Lotters Stuff is Still gone, hybrids are still not for sale. They did say they have a lot of work to do(understatement of the year). I'm reserving judgement still until this plays out, but don't think that theyre going to get a pass here. I've got some very serious thoughts and concerns. I think I know Ricks real angle here. I'm gonna wait and see before I play my hand.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

My though is the frogs they have that look close enough to a pure morph will find there way into the classic line. I highly doubt that this family has enough business ethics to do what is really right.
No these guys should and hopefully never will be trusted.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It’s no secret that I’ve been a staunch opponent of their business practices from the very outset and his recent open letter still leaves me skeptical. 

That said, I think the best thing to do is sit back and see if Rick makes good on the promises in his open letter. If we continue to beat him up, he really has no reason to make good on them if it won’t bring about some sort of acceptance on our end.

I’m not very hopeful and still have some major concerns, but I’m willing to sit back for a while and see if this is just another ruse or an honest change of heart.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well, I have to admit, it's getting harder to find blatant malarkey over there. They're still pretty unrealistic about pathogen transferal, but they're not the first breeder to not take that very seriously before an outbreak. The arguments they use to defend crossbreeds (sorry, I mean "frogs of mixed race") aren't sound by any means, but they've cut out most of the lies and misrepresentations. I think they still do themselves a disservice with all the "We're the only breeder in the world that does this" rhetoric because most people have a decent BS detector that will get triggered, but most of that is just shady salesmanship and not blatant lies at this point....so...its better, I guess? 

I'm not surprised the open letter is down. It was for us and we got it.

*Edit - Apologies to mods for bringing up banned topic. I thought my reference was subtle enough, but I should know better than to spark that fire.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Boondoggle said:


> *Edit - Apologies to mods for bringing up banned topic. I thought my reference was subtle enough, but I should know better than to spark that fire.


Don't think for a second Rick isn't aware of what topic we are not allowed to discuss, and so uses that as a weapon.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I myself would never buy from them even if they made some changes to their website. They have failed to build / have lost any trust with me.

The internet is a terrible thing to waste.

If you search you can find info that that this is the second venture that was made into a "hobby" area, and in what seems like similar ways and similarly received.

On the vintage baseball forum it appears Rick caused concern in hobby/collectors: using multiple names, coloring/painting vintage gloves (one person expressed the opinion that this was "killing" the gloves and making them "useless..as collectables") , and reselling them as art, etc. as far back as 2007/2008.

Vintage Baseball Glove Forum • Search


I'm not sure if anyone is aware of the Wayback Machine (Internet Archive), but it's a great site to see old webpages (snapshots taken on different selected dates and archived).

Rick's "oldgloves" webpage may appear similar in the trademarking and categories of types of products offered on USA Frogs, and in their marketing. 

There was a statement regarding proceeds at the bottom of the page which isn't on the USA Frogs website.

Vintage Baseball Gloves - OldGloves™ - ArtGloves™


Even if the changes are made to the USA Frogs site, I fear the practices will continue.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

NOT BASEBALL TOO?!?
Ok, that`s it

*Edit* Only Rick could ruin a vintage baseball glove....I`m gonna puke


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> NOT BASEBALL TOO?!?
> Ok, that`s it
> 
> *Edit* Only Rick could ruin a vintage baseball glove....I`m gonna puke


You can't make this stuff up!



DARTgloves™ said:


> COMING SOON!
> Here you will find some very special artworks that are part of my most unique trademark line! Each glove color pattern emulates the actual skin or eye color of an exotic frog species living somewhere on this planet–usually in a jungle or rain forest. Many will be of the same type bred by my son Dillon. The colors are rich and often irridescen giving great inspiration to each artwork!
> DARTgloves™ are beautiful and proprietary!


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hahaha this guy is such a clown. What is his desire to change everything.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Stick a fork in me...I`m done


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yes,


I can only think of one person that could make this up.


lol


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Aldross said:


> My though is the frogs they have that look close enough to a pure morph will find there way into the classic line. I highly doubt that this family has enough business ethics to do what is really right.
> No these guys should and hopefully never will be trusted.


That is my fear. Beyond them just believing it is ok to mix morphs, they seem to believe it should be done (and are doing it) for the good of the species (whether we agree or not). So combine that self righteous belief and practice with the IMO dishonesty and questionable sales tactics used to date, and It is real hard for me to believe they won't change the name of a frog and pass it off as something else to make a sale. That is why even if a designer frog niche is inevitable I believe these are the wrong people to trust with the first large commercial venture in that niche. They've just broken, and thrown away to much trust IMO, while being all to willing to force their beliefs (and the repercussions from them) upon the rest of us, even as rookies in this hobby. What are they going to attempt to force on us if they manage to stick around? Full hybrids? ...Seems like mixed morph might just be step one in their plan. If they can shove that down our throat and survive, why not move to step two? 



Tzunu'un said:


> I myself would never buy from them even if they made some changes to their website. They have failed to build / have lost any trust with me.
> 
> The internet is a terrible thing to waste.
> 
> If you search you can find info that that this is the second venture that was made into a "hobby" area, and in what seems like similar ways and similarly received.
> 
> On the vintage baseball forum it appears Rick caused concern in hobby/collectors: using multiple names, coloring/painting vintage gloves (one person expressed the opinion that this was "killing" the gloves and making them "useless..as collectables") , and reselling them as art, etc. as far back as 2007/2008.
> 
> Vintage Baseball Glove Forum â€¢ Search
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if anyone is aware of the Wayback Machine (Internet Archive), but it's a great site to see old webpages (snapshots taken on different selected dates and archived).
> 
> Rick's "oldgloves" webpage may appear similar in the trademarking and categories of types of products offered on USA Frogs, and in their marketing.
> 
> There was a statement regarding proceeds at the bottom of the page which isn't on the USA Frogs website.
> 
> Vintage Baseball Gloves - OldGlovesâ„¢ - ArtGlovesâ„¢
> 
> Even if the changes are made to the USA Frogs site, I fear the practices will continue.


Nice find. Looks like they are planning to combine both passions for destroying what was into a new Dartgloves line of gloves...
DARTglovesâ„¢ Galleries

It is hard for me to get to worked up about baseball, but I can totally see how people would get upset that a vintage item is used in this way. Looks like we have a pattern folks.



Enlightened Rogue said:


> NOT BASEBALL TOO?!?
> Ok, that`s it
> 
> *Edit* Only Rick could ruin a vintage baseball glove....I`m gonna puke


Hey John... There is no crying in baseball!!! 



edwardsatc said:


> It’s no secret that I’ve been a staunch opponent of their business practices from the very outset and his recent open letter still leaves me skeptical.
> 
> That said, I think the best thing to do is sit back and see if Rick makes good on the promises in his open letter. If we continue to beat him up, he really has no reason to make good on them if it won’t bring about some sort of acceptance on our end.
> 
> I’m not very hopeful and still have some major concerns, but I’m willing to sit back for a while and see if this is just another ruse or an honest change of heart.


I think now that I've made my baseball comments, I'll *attempt *to follow your lead  

...But other then laying off Lotters (which is a big deal), doesn't really sound like he plans to do much, except use this as an excuse to make a new website, and probably a new business name to separate them from the past/current drama 

I will try to be open minded though


----------



## ivas

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> Note: A 2-3 month old frog is a baby and, in our opinion, too young for retail sale. Baby frogs have baby arms. Baby arms have baby muscles. Compare a baby child–their arms are typically bulky, but they have baby muscles. -USA Dart Frog


"I do therefore humbly offer it to public consideration that of the hundred and twenty thousand children already computed, twenty thousand may be reserved for breed...That the remaining hundred thousand may, at a year old, be offered in the sale to the persons of quality and fortune through the kingdom; always advising the mother to let them suck plentifully in the last month, so as to render them plump and fat for a good table. A child will make two dishes at an entertainment for friends; and when the family dines alone, the fore or hind quarter will make a reasonable dish, and seasoned with a little pepper or salt will be very good boiled on the fourth day, especially in winter." --Jonathan Swift (A Modest Proposal)


----------



## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It makes sense ivas. Rick has a total apples to apples comparison going. Just like how a 2 year old human can breed like tincs do right?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It's like he specializes in taking a good thing and ruining it.

/head desk


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

He's like a hobby alchemist, trying to turn them into gold.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



epiphytes etc. said:


> He's like a hobby alchemist, trying to turn them into gold.


But instead everyone gets lead poisoning

(Sad Fact: I had to google "lead" to make sure I spelled it right.)


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess alchemy is dangerous.

Oldgloves shut down. Foreclosure in Wisconsin. 

Hello Tennessee !


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Oops, I guess it's "Alchemy TM"


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

*Just a reminder, breaking any of the rules that have been previously outlined in this thread or the User Agreement will result in the user being immediately restricted from the forum. There are no exceptions to this. All of the moderators are watching this thread closely and we can see any items that you edit/delete. 

If you think it may cause a problem... DON'T POST IT*


----------



## oldlady25715

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Juvenile dart frog legs are much smaller than baby arms. 3 month old Baby arms are probably 4 inches in diameter, 3 month juvenile dart frog arms are about 4 millimeters in diameter.


----------



## Wusserton

*Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog*

This entire post heightened my senses to the scheme of certain breeders and now I am on the watch so thank you Doug for your diligence in that regard! thankfully I never dealt with any company like theirs and if I don't buy frogs from one of you I lean towards RAC members who shy away from this IMO dangerous culture of cross breeding in captivity. its not my place to "play god" regardless of species and avoiding cross breeding is scary enough without adding to that mixed species frogs ...I will grant you that it worked in dogs but thats considering thousands of years of selective breeding with so many failures you cant count them and those very failures are clearly visible in even the purest of bred dogs so.... in a sense it really didn't work, at least not from a natural standpoint, and dogs aren't disappearing like frogs are. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Well, that didn't last long ... back to selling frankenfrogs.

USA Frog - U.S. Dart Frog - American REBEL Tinctorius (ART frogs)(Exclusive!)


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> Well, that didn't last long ... back to selling frankenfrogs.
> 
> USA Frog - U.S. Dart Frog - American REBEL Tinctorius (ART frogs)(Exclusive!)


Hmmm. Maybe he's just trying to get rid of current stock?...except he's opening that other site that is exclusively crossbreeds, so I don't know. It's hard to keep track of where the hell that company is going. It's almost as if there's no plan at all. 

$20-$23 a frog? That's what I get for wholesaling 3-month-olds locally, no shipping. That's a pretty pathetic profit margin for all this trouble. That's a far cry from the over $100 price tag they had when Rick first introduced them.


----------



## toostrange

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

With the whole sale prices, a lot of pet shops will be snatching them up. To me looks like he's trying to flood market. That sucks!


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> With the whole sale prices, a lot of pet shops will be snatching them up. To me looks like he's trying to flood market. That sucks!


Well, at least if they go to pet shops, a large percentage won't ever live long enough to make it back to the general hobby.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hey, I found some more blatant Malarkey! Under their section on grouping frogs together...



Rickdiculous said:


> ...With that said, it is very rare for an Auratus to crossbreed with a Tinctorius. The result would be a hybrid frog, i.e., not able to reproduce. The same holds true for Tinctorius X Leucomelas cross-breeding, and Auratus X Lecuomelas cross-breeding. We do not allow any cross-breeding, because the offspring would be mixed species and not able to reproduce.


Everything here is patently untrue.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Found on site today....but according to this, if gone tomorrow then perhaps it never existed ?



> More specifically, at any time we may change text, the way we say things, even what or how we say things. We are led in part by inspiration–always trying to provide the best frog experience and cut through the ton of generalized misinformation out there.
> 
> Thus, while our site changes may appear instantly, this dynamic sometimes frustrates those that follow our site closesly as critics. Accordingly, whenever you see a screen shot of something we wrote, please check to be sure it is still on our site, or even from us.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I wonder if Paramount Pictures lawyers have seen their new logo and TM.

Would you say the designer of this logo "borrowed" his design | Typophile


----------



## PDFanatic

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Nice to see you guys are still keeping the good work up!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> If a delivery delay occurs and something dreadful happens, and RARELY does anything go wrong and a frog doesn't make it, just notify us immediately. We believe you, but we may need pictures for a FedEx claim! We will phone you right away to discuss and make arrangements for a refund, or replacement.


Its not that they dont trust you..... 

They just need pictures for a Fedex Claim.....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Tzunu'un said:


> I wonder if Paramount Pictures lawyers have seen their new logo and TM.
> 
> Would you say the designer of this logo "borrowed" his design | Typophile


They stopped using it. Now they're just TOP.

Pretty silly though. You'ld think a person who claims to be an IP Attorney would know better than to STEAL the Intellectual Property of others, especially that of a Multibillion dollar company like Paramount with Lawyers who have nothing better to do than write cease and desist letters all day.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



toostrange said:


> With the whole sale prices, a lot of pet shops will be snatching them up. To me looks like he's trying to flood market. That sucks!


Wouldn't put it past the man to do that now just to spite the hobby.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Important Special Request

Anyone who may have taken *Screenshots* of the "Conservation" Page when it contained libelous statements about Dr. Stefan Lotters, please PM me.

I have several versions captured during Rick's ragegasm, but any others could be useful.

Thanks


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Hahaha, now they're calling their designer trash, "Hobby Hybrids". Can this joke get any worse?


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Hahaha, now they're calling their designer trash, "Hobby Hybrids". Can this joke get any worse?


...after declaring authoritatively that these frogs can't be hybrids because they are fertile. I honestly think everybody over there edits the site anytime they want to and they all have differing opinions.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Forgive me if I`m a little behind here, I can`t look at their site more than once a week now.

But it seems they have now trademarked~ COLOR, ART, and OUTSIDE THE LINES

See ya next week


----------



## Deer

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Sorry if this has been posted already, but their conservation page now reads
"3. Breed between the races of the same frog species to improve genetics and produce awesome looking frogs. The wild poison dart frog experts Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt say different frog races (i.e., "color morphs" or "morphs" of the sames species) have and do mix in the wild naturally. *They also say keeping the captive bred, non-wild, frog in colorful groups is also okay.* This make sense. What is okay in wild, should be okay in captivity, but read on."

Apart from the amazing english,

Do they? I was under the impression that they very much DO NOT. 
I don't keep any darts myself (yet!) but am on here almost everyday looking at vivariums etc as you guys are a huge wealth of information for my reps, and have been following this for a while. I can only imagine how terribly frustrating this is for you 

Edit:

"*This same "expert" hides behind his list of conservation organization memberships, while his own lips and pen reveal his true anti-conservation position. *This leaves only inbreeding (1. above) and continued importation of wild caught poison frogs (2. above) as the only ways to meet the growing demand for colorful pet frogs seems to lack elements of conservation. We should avoid this Expert's declaration of an "open season" on the colorful wild Poison Dart Frogs to satisfy the entire demand of the colorful pet frog trade, and not forget the dangers of wild caught frogs entirely."

He must be raging again?


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Put on your boots boys and girls cuz the S*!t just keeps getting deeper:



”usafrog website” said:


> (As of tis writing, USA Frog has over *10,000 captive bred colorul pet dart frogs, tadpoles, and eggs*. As such, not only have they learned firsthand which dendrobate frog lines are some of the "best-of-the-best" and breed only them, they have a strong growing knowledge and understanding of the frog races (i.e., "color morphs") and their purported purity.





”usafrog website” said:


> We have over *1,500 enclosures*. They ALL have a blanket of common oak leaves we picked up.


So even if I believed these numbers, I'm supposed to believe that their inventory has increased by 2,500 frogs, tadpoles, and eggs in the last month?

If you can't dazzle them brilliance, baffle them with bulls*!t ...


----------



## LLLReptile

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

A message to our customers and the dart frog community:


A while back, someone on this board was kind enough to PM us with their concerns over our dealings with USA Frogs. We ourselves had never, one time, purchased any "hybrid" arrow frog. We breed many dart frogs ourselves, and buy from many, many breeders (several of whom are on this forum, and have posted about USA frog). 

Once we got this private message on this forum, we immediately contacted USA frog giving our general concerns over breeding hybrid frogs, and asked their reasons behind it. Over the course of the last month (since that PM), we have been discussing our options, and going back and forth with USA frog to see if we could figure out a solution. We formally requested that they stop producing hybrid dart frogs, as unlike other areas in the reptile world, it is clear the dart frog community is not ready for it, and has no need for hybridized darts. 

*As of now, we have fully suspended our business dealings with USA Frogs and have requested again that they rethink producing these hybrids.* We have done this because we, just like you, agree that hybridizing dart frogs does not have a place in our hobby. We love breeding darts ourselves and love carrying such a huge variety of them and products to support them. We want to clarify something. This decision is specifically based on the hybrid dart frog concerns. Other than that, we feel their business has been nothing but solid. They pack better than most in the industry and have been nothing but professional with us. We appreciate that and hope that they will rethink their current business model and stop producing hybrid dart frogs so we can find a way to do business again. 


We have always supported the dart frog community and will continue to do so, as we appreciate your support and business as well.

Sincerely,
Scott Wesley
LLLReptile & Supply, Inc.
www.LLLReptile.com


----------



## allegedhuman

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



LLLReptile said:


> A message to our customers and the dart frog community:
> 
> 
> A while back, someone on this board was kind enough to PM us with their concerns over our dealings with USA Frogs. We ourselves had never, one time, purchased any "hybrid" arrow frog. We breed many dart frogs ourselves, and buy from many, many breeders (several of whom are on this forum, and have posted about USA frog).
> 
> Once we got this private message on this forum, we immediately contacted USA frog giving our general concerns over breeding hybrid frogs, and asked their reasons behind it. Over the course of the last month (since that PM), we have been discussing our options, and going back and forth with USA frog to see if we could figure out a solution. We formally requested that they stop producing hybrid dart frogs, as unlike other areas in the reptile world, it is clear the dart frog community is not ready for it, and has no need for hybridized darts.
> 
> *As of now, we have fully suspended our business dealings with USA Frogs and have requested again that they rethink producing these hybrids.* We have done this because we, just like you, agree that hybridizing dart frogs does not have a place in our hobby. We love breeding darts ourselves and love carrying such a huge variety of them and products to support them. We want to clarify something. This decision is specifically based on the hybrid dart frog concerns. Other than that, we feel their business has been nothing but solid. They pack better than most in the industry and have been nothing but professional with us. We appreciate that and hope that they will rethink their current business model and stop producing hybrid dart frogs so we can find a way to do business again.
> 
> 
> We have always supported the dart frog community and will continue to do so, as we appreciate your support and business as well.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Scott Wesley
> LLLReptile & Supply, Inc.
> www.LLLReptile.com


Now THAT^^^^ Is the kind of business practices USAFrog could learn a thing or two from. This decision actually makes me feel respect for LLLreptile and I really appreciate knowing and understanding how your company considered the options and decided to respect the hobbyist and consumer's opinions. Thank you!

It also is funny how USAFrog can be professional to a business partner buying their stock, compared to how they dealt with Lotters' request to stop plagiarizing his material and treated him very unprofessionally when he used his legal rights to ask them to stop using his material without permission to support a business concept that misrepresented his work. I wonder if we should now expect some new website revisions to now include something aimed towards LLLreptile bashing since they have ANOTHER source whose opinion is critical of their business plan?

It is great that LLLreptile won't buy hybrids and as of now is not buying from them, but there still is the ongoing issue of where those crossbred frogs will go? With the level of trust we all seem to have regarding USAFrog it seems as though none of us would be surprised if they stuck them in with the closest look-alike standard morphs they would be selling and so even the common morphs are seen with suspicion regarding what they really are from USAFrog

I also agree with edwardsatc about how they keep bragging about their numbers but not showing any actual pictures of facilities it does appear as they are just inflating numbers to impress. I can understand from a competitive business standpoint their argument that they don’t want to “share” critical information about products they may be developing, etc. because they are afraid someone is going to try to beat them to a trademark filing. In that case don’t show pictures of your newest Malibu-Barbie-DartFrog-Mansion-Habitat ™ (Just add Frogs and leaf litter for instant beach fun. Perfect home especially for the Islander, surfside and Rio variety of frogs!) but as a family business saying they have thousands of tanks and thousands of frogs why are there absolutely ZERO pictures? 

It is a Frogroom, I mean FROGroom ™, just showing pictures to back up your claim that they have rows and rows and rows of tanks full of happy little frogs is something I would think they would be really pushing in order to portray and support the image of an honest family business atmosphere on their webpage. Especially when USAFrog is claiming



> “USA Frog is the single largest breeder and seller of colorful pet frogs in the country, and the ONLY company to offer a complete Money-Back Satisfaction Guarantee on every frog we sell!”


 (Note, I did not emphasis the "ONLY" in their quote either, that is original off website) and regarding their Guarantee they further say


> “Do I get a Satisfaction Guarantee, Live Arrival Guarantee, Health Guarantee...? Yes. You get ALL THREE (3)! With USA Frog you most certainly do! It always means you get your money back if you are not satisfied right after you get them.”



Uhmm, sorry. That is standard practice. With USA Frog they specify “RIGHT AFTER YOU GET THEM”…

What if it is a day or two later before they look ill or die because of the stress from shipping. Nope, doesn’t sound like it is covered…Gee, if they had looked at competitior’s websites I easily found several companies mentioning a


> “3 day health guarantee on all animals purchased from "CompanyX


(Changed to “CompanyX” Don’t be lazy. DO a market survey and figure out your own competition Rick before you claim you are the ONLY company that has a live/satisfaction/health guarantee…especially if you limit it to immediate arrival because other companies already have that and exceed your offer).


> “If animal(s) purchased arrive in good shape but fail to thrive within 3 days, CompanyX….etc ”


Or how about another where


> “Company Y’s Live Arrival and Health Guarantee and 5 days Company Y’s Health Guarantee. Company Y offers a Company Y’s Live Arrival and Health Guarantee policy to the ensures our Dart Frogs, Tadpoles, Plant, Fruit Flies, and Springtails are alive and healthy.”


Any decent seller has a healthy/live arrival clause. That is nothing special. USAFrog is making false advertising claims (gee no surprise) saying they are the only company that does that when my quick google search and the first two companies I looked at had even MORE to offer…And the company with a 5 day guarantee came from the page of a company that (prior to UsaFrog) was a company that also had a thread critical of their business practices but even THAT company is better than DFW’s offer.

Here is another case of the business practices that have come to be associated with FrogUSA. Here is a company run by a LAWYER who consistently ignores basic legal practices. Plagiarism, misrepresenting the work of the author they are plagiarizing, slandering the person you plagiarized, blatant false advertising…and not to mention continually twisting facts to suit business practices when simple English word definitions or research are clearly the opposite of what they claim… Gahhhh. 

Websites for other businesses has photos on their facebook pages and websites with pictures of their frog room, tadpole room and plant rooms when they are expanding/remodeling/working. I’ve bought frogs from Josh Frogs and I remember they actually have been voted and awarded recognition as breeders btw..not just some self proclaimed “most-mostlier breeder of frogs but you just have to trust us on the numbers” like USAFrog is calling themselves. It really is impressive to see their pictures with the huge wall of cups full of tadpoles and really gives a sense of connection to the business so I cannot figure out why USAFfrog doesn’t back up their claims of TEN THOUSANDS of tadpoles frogs, etc to really help consumers connect with the hard work these kids have to do every day?

Plus, here is a new example from their page where they are trying to redefine behavior. This time to support their claim that they breed frogs that are not aggressive…



> “Hobby Note:
> We have about 8 lines of the Tinctorius Powder Grey and another 8 of the powder blue. We call them LUNAR™ by or trademark. Most of the powder grey and powder blue frogs are very athletic, and some are "rude". "Rudeness" means if they want to go from point A to point B in your enclosure, they may walk on another frog. This is not aggression, just plain rudeness.”


…uhmmm how many generation have you been selecting for? These are not domesticated frogs just because you stick them in a glass tank and call them a pet. Calling something “rude” doesn’t change what it really is. You think getting stepped on by a bunch of rude people you have to live with won’t stress you out? Even if you don’t use the word aggression, this is aggressive behavior (rudegression ™) where housing frogs in groups leads to stress and death from overcrowding. You can overcrowd rude/aggressive frogs in groups and they may not die immediately but after months of stress they are not all going to be as healthy as if housed properly. You have not changed the core behavior of the animal in just 3 years of business and maybe 1 or two generations of breeding. It takes extensive selection specifically for behavior because even in an experiment with Siberian foxes it took scientists decades (so far over 50) and thousands upon thousands of foxes to yield a “friendlier-sorta-domesticated” fox.

Domesticated foxes in Siberia: An experiment in peril.

P.S. Hey Doug. PM'd you about your special request since I have a collection of screenshots I took during the Lotters Bashing craze when I was rather shocked/amused by the slander and thought to save it for posterity just in case it would be necessary later


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



LLLReptile said:


> A message to our customers and the dart frog community:
> 
> 
> A while back, someone on this board was kind enough to PM us with their concerns over our dealings with USA Frogs. We ourselves had never, one time, purchased any "hybrid" arrow frog. We breed many dart frogs ourselves, and buy from many, many breeders (several of whom are on this forum, and have posted about USA frog).
> 
> Once we got this private message on this forum, we immediately contacted USA frog giving our general concerns over breeding hybrid frogs, and asked their reasons behind it. Over the course of the last month (since that PM), we have been discussing our options, and going back and forth with USA frog to see if we could figure out a solution. We formally requested that they stop producing hybrid dart frogs, as unlike other areas in the reptile world, it is clear the dart frog community is not ready for it, and has no need for hybridized darts.
> 
> *As of now, we have fully suspended our business dealings with USA Frogs and have requested again that they rethink producing these hybrids.* We have done this because we, just like you, agree that hybridizing dart frogs does not have a place in our hobby. We love breeding darts ourselves and love carrying such a huge variety of them and products to support them. We want to clarify something. This decision is specifically based on the hybrid dart frog concerns. Other than that, we feel their business has been nothing but solid. They pack better than most in the industry and have been nothing but professional with us. We appreciate that and hope that they will rethink their current business model and stop producing hybrid dart frogs so we can find a way to do business again.
> 
> 
> We have always supported the dart frog community and will continue to do so, as we appreciate your support and business as well.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Scott Wesley
> LLLReptile & Supply, Inc.
> www.LLLReptile.com


Thank you for following through with your word Scott, as I knew you would from our original conversation. I did mentioned our original conversation on here and said I would give an update but since you posted this here, I will not add to it as you said all that was needed. Thank you again Scott and LLREPTILE


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

THANK YOU LLL!!! That was a very conscientious move, and I'm sure you will see a great amount of appreciation from the hobby, and those that are serious about the captive care of Dendrobatids.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



LLLReptile said:


> Other than that, we feel their business has been nothing but solid.
> Sincerely,
> Scott Wesley
> LLLReptile & Supply, Inc.
> [/URL]


I respectfully disagree


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

LLL Reptile,

Thank you very much for taking this responsible and informed stance against what USA Dart Frog does with hybrids. I sincerely appreciate you being willing to take this stand against what they do.

I said from the beginning, were it not for the hybrids, they could have been a well respected business and a force for good in the hobby. THEY choose another path.

I hope however, that you can see that the issue now extends well beyond just the hybrid issue. You have the constant lies, defamation, libel, misinformation, and threats leveled at OUR community. There are hundreds of responsible hobby breeders you can and should support. I realize not every hobbyist breeds frogs en mass like they do at dirt cheep prices, but I would think you could easily make a case for your customers that quality frogs purchased by you, in support of the hobby, are a far better alternative to frogs produced cheeply with in a warehouse.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> Could some of the male/female group members breed? It is definitely possible. When you see them start to pair off like lovers at about 13-18 months of age, you then have a decision to make. Of course, this is entirely up to you, and not any other person. You may let them breed within the group setting or separate them for privacy by putting them in a new enclosure of their own. A simple, inexpensive ten (10) gallon fish tank setup will work fine. Don't worry about females fighting. Remember, the group has lived together for about a year in your home and in your care, after they were socialized and selected by us just for you. No doubt they already know their own place in the group and live peacably.
> 
> If you do not wish to harvest the eggs and raise the tadpoles for offspring, some hobbyists let the eggs go unattended, or collect them for disposal. We do neither. We harvest all of the eggs and raise every tadpole. If you have a water dish or small pond setup in the enclosure, hopefully no more than belly deep for young frogs, you may also opt for the natural solution. The natural solution allows the male parent frog to transport the tadpoles to the water feature. They usually do this one by one for the dendrobates species, but we have seen multiples hitching a ride on dads back. If they survive in the water feature they will morph into a froglet and crawl out onto land giving you more frogs to keep, give away, or sell, etc. The process is not stressful or difficult no matter what you choose. They do this all the time in the wild without man's help and not every frog egg survives out there. Just make sure the water feature is easy in and easy out.
> 
> A point worth noting, even if you have several similar looking frogs within the group, don't be surprised if they choose a mate you did not expect them to choose. It is well known among knowledgeable frog breeders when these frogs choose their own mate some of them may choose a different looking mate. They do this in the wild too, so do not be alarmed. With that said, it is very rare for an Auratus to crossbreed with a Tinctorius. The result would be a hybrid frog, i.e., not able to reproduce. The same holds true for Tinctorius X Leucomelas cross-breeding, and Auratus X Lecuomelas cross-breeding. We do not allow any cross-breeding, because the offspring would be mixed species and not able to reproduce.
> 
> Hobby Comment:
> The U.S. Dart Frog Hobby frowns upon raising frogs in colorful groups NOT because it is wrong or the frogs won't get along. In fact, the experts on the wild frogs say they can be kept in groups just fine. The hobby dislikes colorful groups because they might breed. There is a growing demand for healthy and pretty frogs of all colors, so if you choose to breed the different colors and sell the offspring, be sure to fully inform the potential buyer or sell them on a site set up for that purpose.


Look like a whole lot of damage control stemming from LLL's announcement sis going on today. Should prove to be an entertaining few days. Good thing the Boy Scouts just dropped off a big ol box of popcorn. Enjoy the fireworks.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

They also recently posted alot of frogs on Kingsnake for sale including the hybrids. I doubt that anyone reselling for them could compete with those prices and still make much of a markup.


As LLL responded favorably, I wonder if other retailers should be contacted / made aware of the concerns ?


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## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> A point worth noting, even if you have several similar looking frogs within the group, don't be surprised if they choose a mate you did not expect them to choose. It is well known among knowledgeable frog breeders when these frogs choose their own mate some of them may choose a different looking mate. They do this in the wild too, so do not be alarmed.


Ok, this stuck out more to me for some reason... are they _actually_ implying that the frogs know what they look like? Like... a female knows that she is a finer spotted frog so she decides that she wants to go with a frog with larger spots? Are they giving all their frogs little mirrors or something?


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## JayMillz

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thats awesome to hear LLL! Im happy you appreciate concerns from your customers. Btw, if Rick really wanted to make things be him, vs "the hobby"...i know a lot of hobbyists that are not in it for the $ who would have no problems distributing dendrobates around below warehouse prices. The only edge for rick is that the hobby selects for their customers, unlike he does for his frogs 

Im sorry, but I would not trust the purity of any single line of theirs after the statement he posted about whenever they have an extra frog or 2, they just move them to a new inhabited one. We saw old early pics where the labeling appeared to be nonexistant in goliath thread #1.


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## yeloowtang

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I had friends over a few weeks ago that live in the USA, after seeing my frogs they wanted to get into the hobby.
they couldn't cross any of mine over with them, so i suggested they track down a good breeder and buy within the USA.
they sent me a link to a kingsnake add.. and showed me the adds LLL had.
I remembered that they bought from the warehouse !!! so i sent trhem an email asking if they had frogs from them and voiced my concerns about not wanting my friends to get frogs that came from the warehouse..

this was their response:

<<We purchase from a number of different suppliers, but I don't believe any of the frogs we have listed at this time are from USA Frog stock. (We have purchased from them in the past, just not their hybrids). 

Please feel free to contact us if you have questions about any specific animals listed. 

Sincerely,
Kate Larsen
LLLReptile & Supply 

maybe if many people did the same thing, this caused them to re-think who they buy from in order to not lose buiseness and harm their reputation at the same time ??


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## easternversant

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



carola1155 said:


> Ok, this stuck out more to me for some reason... are they _actually_ implying that the frogs know what they look like? Like... a female knows that she is a finer spotted frog so she decides that she wants to go with a frog with larger spots? Are they giving all their frogs little mirrors or something?


Actually, they are probably right, although they didn't arrive at that by any rational mechanism. They are basically touting their hybrid frogs here (at least that is how I read it) by saying that because the frogs don't choose their own type, then it is totally fine!

Speciation that occurs within a location typically results from some sort of assortative mating (like choosing like). For example if a male develops a novel color tail in fish and females just happen to be predisposed to that color via a sensory bias then the population can bifurcate into two separate species via this assortative mating. Imitator is thought to be doing this in one location (Twomey et al 2014).

But when populations are split via whatever reason, they no longer share a recent evolutionary history. So, outside of some basic species recognition traits like calls, there isn't any evolutionary push to prevent mating with another species or morph. As a result, assortative mating isn't common in these situations. So when you put some frogs together in a tiny terrarium that are geographically separate and thus don't share a recent evolutionary history, they may lack the mechanisms to prevent hybridization _in that unnatural setting_. 

This does not mean that they would do it in the wild, despite what they say.

TLDR: They are accidentally right that frogs may 'hybridize' across color morphs or species, but their rationale is totally lacking and the actual mechanism indicates that what they are doing is unnatural.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Tzunu'un said:


> As LLL responded favorably, I wonder if other retailers should be contacted / made aware of the concerns ?


Yes certainly, but...

We should be careful against making a false association with any retailer suspected of dealing with USA Frog. Unless you know, or are able to determine for a fact, that any other retailer has or does business with USA Frog, don't mention them together. Retailers do not deserve the negative association of having done business with USA Frog unless they're actually guilty of doing so. Consider how damaging even the suggestion could be to a business within' our hobby.

Credit again to LLL for taking a stance. I would Absolutely love to see to see other businesses that support our hobby take a similar stand.


----------



## carola1155

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



easternversant said:


> Actually, they are probably right, although they didn't arrive at that by any rational mechanism. They are basically touting their hybrid frogs here (at least that is how I read it) by saying that because the frogs don't choose their own type, then it is totally fine!
> 
> Speciation that occurs within a location typically results from some sort of assortative mating (like choosing like). For example if a male develops a novel color tail in fish and females just happen to be predisposed to that color via a sensory bias then the population can bifurcate into two separate species via this assortative mating. Imitator is thought to be doing this in one location (Twomey et al 2014).
> 
> But when populations are split via whatever reason, they no longer share a recent evolutionary history. So, outside of some basic species recognition traits like calls, there isn't any evolutionary push to prevent mating with another species or morph. As a result, assortative mating isn't common in these situations. So when you put some frogs together in a tiny terrarium that are geographically separate and thus don't share a recent evolutionary history, they may lack the mechanisms to prevent hybridization _in that unnatural setting_.
> 
> This does not mean that they would do it in the wild, despite what they say.
> 
> TLDR: They are accidentally right that frogs may 'hybridize' across color morphs or species, but their rationale is totally lacking and the actual mechanism indicates that what they are doing is unnatural.


I'm with you on all that, but it wasn't quite the point I was making.

Without getting too into this and derailing the thread... Given their past statements about frogs having feelings and emotions and all that garbage, I interpreted their statement as saying the frogs are making conscious decisions (based on knowledge of its own appearance) to choose a frog that looks different than itself.

Which is well... ridiculous.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Enlightened Rogue said:


> I respectfully disagree


I agree with Doug, more then enough reasons outlined throughout this thread to not do business with USAfrog beyond the hybrid/mixed morph frogs... but as long as LLL sticks to their word and suspends "ALL" business with them : I'm happy, and LLL gets my respect.

For any others dealing with a USAfrog I encourage you to follow LLL's example, and respect the community you serve, and that serves you... please


----------



## phender

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I was thinking about how people doubt their claims to how many frogs, tads and eggs they have. I agree that having that many frogs would be an impossible task for a family to maintain properly. On the other hand, if they have a hundred breeding pairs of tincs, how can they not have that many frogs. They say they pull and raise all eggs. If i pulled every egg from my azureus pair, I would have close to 20 new frogs every month. I don't know how many breeding pairs they have, but if they have 100 pairs, they could easily be producing 2000 frogs a month!
You could make some pretty decent money selling 2000 frogs a month at lower than wholesale prices when you don't have to pay your employees. The question is, is there a market for 2000 frogs a month and can you maintain that many frogs with a limited staff?


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## JMims

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



phender said:


> I was thinking about how people doubt their claims to how many frogs, tads and eggs they have. I agree that having that many frogs would be an impossible task for a family to maintain properly. On the other hand, if they have a hundred breeding pairs of tincs, how can they not have that many frogs. They say they pull and raise all eggs. If i pulled every egg from my azureus pair, I would have close to 20 new frogs every month. I don't know how many breeding pairs they have, but if they have 100 pairs, they could easily be producing 2000 frogs a month!
> You could make some pretty decent money selling 2000 frogs a month at lower than wholesale prices when you don't have to pay your employees. The question is, is there a market for 2000 frogs a month and can you maintain that many frogs with a limited staff?


To me at least, caring for 100 pairs of frogs seems far fetched, especially considering the bogus science and husbandry claims they seem to make on a daily basis.
In the case that the did somehow keep 100 pairs of frogs healthy enough to produce viable eggs and tadpoles that don't morph out with SLS (or even survive long enough to morph out), the chances that they would be able to pull that many eggs and care for all of those tadpoles, froglets, and adults with NO staff is insane. There is no way they could pull that off.
Lets go even further and assume that they somehow are able to morph out these thousands of tadpoles on a daily basis. They do not have any staff whatsoever, except for the family of course, it seems unlikely that they would be able to keep that many froglets fed and healthy. They would need quite a few fly cultures made daily...not to mention a ton of enclosures. If they were somehow able to morph this many tads, chances are they've got pretty sickly frogs and a high mortality rate.
As for the marketability of all of these frogs, I think its safe to assume that the market is not huge, save the pet stores that may buy wholesale frogs from them. I don't believe that many hobbyists buy from them (especially after reading this thread), which leaves a few uninformed people looking for a cool pet who may get suckered into buying their frogs.
Side note: if they aren't able to sell/move enough frogs...wouldn't they have offspring stacking up by the thousands IF they really do pull and morph all of these tads? Might they have too many and not enough time or manpower to care for them?
Thats my two cents on their "thousands" of frogs.


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## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



USA Frog said:


> _We want to be known as the source of OUR frogs_





USA Frog said:


> ALL purchases are completely confidential!



Ironic? You want to be known as the source of your frogs, yet you regognize, that as the source of frogs, your name is mud, and thus, those who purchase frogs from you probably don't want anyone to know that they got their frogs from you, so you assure them of confidentiality.

Compare and contrast this with the majority of passionate hobbyists who are proud to let others know where they got their frogs.

I'd never want to have to hide the origin of my frogs, and I would want people who have purchased frogs from me to proudly tell others.


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## JMims

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



> We want to be known as the source of OUR frogs


Makes it easier to avoid their frogs as soon as I see that trademark...


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## Enlightened Rogue

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Really?!?

SUGAR BABY (green & bronze) pet frog

and their "yummy looking"


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## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Yummy?

Awfully exotic designer cuisine.


----------



## Psychosis

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Out of boredom and curiosity, I browsed this thread. Out of morbid curiousity, I looked at the site. In awe, I found the "buy the dozen" section. 12 different morphs and species, $189. Is that supposed to be marketed toward other vendors, or has my tenuous grasp on this hobby just been rocked for no reason? 

Do not want. Thanks for the very lengthy heads up.


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## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

More comedy from the Wascher warehouse ...

F0=FrogZero ...almost choked on my lunch laughing ... keep the laughs coming Ricky!





usafrog.com said:


> Frog Breeding CB-F1 and CB-F2
> Captive Bred Frog Guidelines, by USA Frog
> 
> Any complete end-to-end system of guidelines to define best practices for captive frog breeding cannot include wild caught frogs, but must address them. The whole point of captive bred colorful frogs is breeding what is already in captivity, without going to the jungle for more. Stated another way, the whole premise of sustainable captive frog breeding can also be understood by what it isn't. Wild frogs breed in the wild, not in captivity. Captive bred frogs are bred in captivity where no wild caught animals are ever used. Sure, "but how did this start?" you might ask. Long ago with wild frogs, and that is also the point. Ask anyone skilled in the pet dart frog trade and they will tell you there are more than enough frogs here now to sustain the captive bred pet frog trade if there is efficient utilization, hence the guidelines we use.
> 
> As to guidelines and identification, while some prefer to assign "from the wild" generational numbers to frog offspring in the captive bred pet trade, the wild caught generational F nomenclature simply does not work because it is rooted in the wild, not captivity. The generational designations from the wild are moot because wild frogs are ommitted in the most eco-friendly meaning of captive frog breeding. Still, the wild caught frog must be recognized in order for it to be identified as a NO-GO zone in any captive frog breeding guidelines, and a similar captive bred lineage system should be preferred to maintain synergy with the inapplicable wild system. Moreover, those same captive frog guidelines must attempt to minimize line breeding (i.e., inbreeding).
> 
> Knowing we have over 1,000 breeder age frogs, representing almost all of the Tinctorius, Auratus and Leucomelas, and multiple distinct lines for each variety, we can guarantee you GREAT genetics, wonderful coloration, natural pattern and hue, top quality, health, beauty, and strength. We never have and never will deal in any wild caught frog in any way, and thereby practice the conservation we preach.
> 
> Will our system as presented be criticized? Sure. Nevertheless, it is a system whereby our customers can be assured they are getting top quality frogs, and not simply the lip service of others who depend on wild frogs. These are some of our quality guidlines. We wish others would use a system of quality too!
> Background - Levels of Breeder Frogs
> 
> Using the letters "CB" for captive bred, and the letter “F” for frog, and the number “0” as null or nil, etc., in the context of captive bred frogs there are no frogs of the F0 class to be found anywhere. F0 frogs are WILD caught frogs. Wild frogs can be diseased and have genetic issues not readily visible. Moreover, wild caught frog life spans are typically ¼ that of captive bred frogs. They simply don’t live long and that alone should speak volumes on the subject.
> 
> FrogZero (“F0”) is reserved for wild caught frogs. Thus, "CB-F0" cannot exist. There are no captive bred wild caught frogs, and so the "CB" notatio0n is also important. Stated another way, because F0 is NEVER used in our captive bred classifications, then CB-F0 cannot exist. Buta waht about "one" wildf rog that breeds with one captive bred fog? Can the guidelines be circumvented that way? No. Any wild caught frog as a part of a breeding pair renders the entire pair “CB-F0”. BOTH parents must be captive bred individually to avoid an F0 failure rating for the pair. ALL captive bred frog breeding stock must be from captive bred parents, i.e., captive bred PAIRINGS, NOTHING wild caught, or they simply are not captive bred frogs or captive bred frog offspring, albeit mature breeders.
> 
> As you now know, these guidelines kick in at the breeder level to maintain consistency and Captive Bred Purity too. Please read on for a complete discussion of the guidelines. (Note: USA Frog does not have any F0 (wild caught) frogs.)
> 
> CB-Frog# (“CB-F#”) (# is a non-zero number from 1-3, e.g., CB-F1, CB-F2, CB-F3.)
> F# is a designation for a BREEDING PAIR of captive bred frogs based on the novelty/benefit of the genetic contribution (explained by example below). Thus, any captive bred male/captive bred female frog pairing put together for the purposes of breeding does not rise to the level of an F class unless and until they actually breed to produce living Offspring (“O” frogs discussed below).
> 
> “O” (the letter “O”) is reserved to designate Offspring. All individual frogs are always “O” no matter what their age. Again the emphasis and utility of this classification is on BREEDING, and the pairs that produce the sustainable population events. Every individual frog is simply offspring, an “O”. This is not new, but better understood now by removing the wild frog from captive bred discussions and focusing on BREEDING for sustainability, NOT wild frog capture. All O frogs are offspring until they breed and are known as the “Offspring of CB-F# parents”, etc. (Variety information will be discussed later.)USA Frog acquired the top lines in the trade when they started. The effort was intense!! Our lineage list is truly a who’s who, and yet some of those revered lines proved to be junk and did not live up their billing. We don‘t share that info, but we sure do use it internally everyday by avoiding the junk, and breeding only the best-of-the-best!
> 
> We ONLY breed Captive Bred (CB) F1 and (CB)F2 from the best lines to start with, AND only sell first or second generation offspring frogs.
> ALL of our varieties are Guaranteed to be clearly defined by Base Color Morph (BCM), Collector Color Morph (CCM), and DESIGNER® Color Morph (DCM) to help you further your frog breeding goals and success.
> 
> USA Frog Captive Frog Breeding Guidelines
> (In the Examples below, and all the Parts thereof, the male and female roles may be reversed.)
> 
> Example One (Parts I-III)
> Part I. “Out-Breeding”
> Offspring color morph (variety) EQUALS Parent color morph (variety)
> 
> Mature Male O from captive bred line ABC of a certain variety
> breeds with
> Mature Female O from a completely different captive bred line XYZ, of the same variety as the ABC line.
> 
> RESULT: CB-F1 captive bred pair.
> OFFSPRING: The offspring of this CB-F1 pair are all parent variety Offspring from the Captive Bred F1 pair (i.e., CB-F1.
> Note: Captive breeding of the Offspring from this particular CB-F1 pair may be bred together for one generation (see Part II next).
> 
> 
> Part II. “SHORT Term Line Breeding”
> Offspring color morph (variety) EQUALS Parent color morph (variety)
> 
> Mature Male Offspring from Part I Result (immediately above)
> breeds with
> Mature Female Offspring from Part I Result (immediately above)
> 
> RESULT: CB-F2 (F1 representative plus F1 representative) captive bred pair.
> OFFSPRING: Offspring are the same variety as the F2 parent pair, but here the breeder has the luxury of capturing traits of the O parents, but avoids the pitfalls of extensive line-breeding (in-breeding) if they follow the next Parts and notes as we do.
> Note: The Offspring from this particular CB-F2 pair are not bred together, as F4 is not acceptable to USA Frog. For example, consider the "nikita" in the trade. The cautions of those who sell it include it rarely breeds, but looks just like a citronella. Yahhh, because it is a citronellla that is now runtified from in-breeding. Inbred runts do not breed well, but they look like miniatures of the real thing. Our guidelines do not permit runt frogs from inbreeding, because it does not occur if the guidleines are followed. For completeness, we don't breed or sell a nikita, but we do breed and sell big, bodacious citronella!
> The O offpring from the CB-F2 Pair of this Part may only be:
> i.) “Bred back” to an CB-F1 for same variety Offspring of a CB-F3 Pair (see Part III immediately below),
> ii.) Bred with an unrelated same variety line to maintain an outbred CB-F1 rank of same variety (see Part I above), OR
> iii.) Bred with an unrelated different variety to as an outbred CB-F1 rank yielding NEW variety genetically advanced Offspring (see Example Two below).
> 
> 
> Part III. “Breed Back”
> Offspring color morph (variety) EQUALS Parent color morph (variety)
> 
> Mature Male Offspring from Part I Result (above)
> breeds with
> Mature Female from Part II Result (immediately above)
> 
> (Still same species, no crossbreeding, and O are fertile so not hybrid.)
> RESULT: CB-F3 captive bred pair (i.e., F1 representative plus F2 representative).
> OFFSPRING: The frogs will likely improve some, but the Pairing rank cannot improve in a “Breed Back”. These CB-F3 Offspring are the same variety as the F1 and F2 parent pairs.
> The Offspring from an CB-F3 pair are not bred together, but they are 2nd generation.
> 
> 
> Example Two (Parts IV-V) - INFINITE Sustainability
> 
> Part IV. Out-Breeding
> Offspring color morph (variety) DOES NOT EQUAL Parent color morph (variety)
> (Offspring variety is “New”)
> 
> Mature Male from captive bred Yin ("any" top quality) Line variety
> breeds with
> Mature Female from captive bred Yang ("any" top quality) Line variety, completely unrelated and different from the Yin Line Male.
> 
> (Still same species. No crossbreeding, and Offspring should always reproduce so not hybrid. We are 35 for 35 and the new varieties are genetically robust for sure—NEVER hybrid!)
> RESULT: CB-F1 captive bred pair.
> OFFSPRING: The offspring of this CB-F1 pair are simply a new variety “Alpha” from a CB-F1 pair.
> (NOTE 1: ALL of the Part I-III examples above will apply to this new variety by changing “Alpha” as used in this Part IV to ABC or XYZ of Part I above and proceeding through the progression of Parts.)
> (NOTE 2: AFTER extensive captive breeding, OFFSPRING evidence unanimously strongly suggests the New River, Villa Nova, and Sipaliwini Savannah in the hobby today are believed to be New Variety frogs, and remember, the experts do say the varieties definitely interbreed in the wild, but let your eyes be the judge.)
> 
> Part V. Out-Breeding
> Offspring color morph (variety) DOES NOT EQUAL Parent color morph (variety)
> 
> Breeding the Offspring from Part IV (immediately above) with the Offspring from Example One, Parts I, II, or III above, yields:
> CB-F1 captive bred pair ALWAYS! TOTALLY sustainable.
> The Offspring of this CB-F1 pair are:
> i) simply a variant of new variety Alpha, or
> ii) another new variety likely depending upon how dissimilar in appearance the Part IV Offspring are to the ABC or XYZ Offspring bred to it.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I just couldn't get through that. I'm feeling a little dizzy.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess we better let all those unaware geneticists and scientists with degrees that all their F0 animals are really *frogs* !

The educational system is really falling apart if they don't know that F0 is FrogZero. 

Just what will they do with all those F0 mice, F0 fruitflies, etc.?

Just think of all those Genetics books that have to be pulled from the shelves and rewritten to correct filial generation nomenclature.

Gregor Mendel where are you?



I have to say , I'm also very surprised by the lack of TM use....I don't think that there was a single one in that entire quoted section. 

Guess the USPTO heaved a sigh of relief....wait a second.....did you hear it?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That whole section is just laughable. Further evidence, Dillion would have been better served staying in school.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

BTW - you'll notice some slight changes to the use of ICUN resources over on the conservation page. You can thank me for that as well.


----------



## grendel88

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I have been away from this entire DFW issue for a while but have tried to keep some tabs on where it has gone. Apparently the ridiculousness that is Wascher science is alive and well. I also have to relate my sincerest gratitude and thanks to Doug for his amazing work. To debunk someone's nonsense by going to the person that was the SOURCE of their pseudoscience? Cold blooded, man. But full of awesomeness! I still get giddy when I think about it.

However, I wanted to float an idea out there that has been on my mind for a while. It not only explains their reported hundreds of breeding pairs but even the space issue they should be having if they're reports are accurate. In the past we have seen them mix a giant group of various tincs in a large tank for a "school demonstration". That was in what looked like a standard 55 gallon tank. If I were to take, say 10-20 55 gallon tanks and stuff 15-20 frogs in each of them, that is anywhere from 150-400 frogs in a relatively small area should thos tanks be lined up right next to each other. This would also make feeding them easy as you are only feeding a small # of tanks en masse. The Waschers have always touted the idea that their frogs pair off on their own. At no point did they say those frogs were separated from the group after pairing. I always saw it as a tinc high school where everyone has a bf/gf no matter how awkward. Provided plenty of places to lay, the frogs would routinely produce eggs and may actually stick to breeding with partners they have had success with in the past. What would result is a ton of babies of unknown origin. Once they morph out, the Waschers can look at their coloration and classify them based on PHYSICAL APPEARANCE. This is something else the Waschers have pushed all along. This is phenotypic selection, which they discussed early on. Once an order is placed, they pull frogs that look like what the buyer wants and send them off. 

To me this is very disturbing because it means even the frogs sold as "non-hybrids" are still mixes of various morphs. The only thing is they look like something people want. When frogs come out looking very different than standard morphs, they are labeled as "hybrid". This would also suggest the frogs are in very poor conditions across the board. It also explains the reason Rick continuously downplayed and denied the aggression tendencies of female tincs. If you can't keep an eye on all the frogs and some die, you can say they just didn't fit in. Those that survive "like" humans and thrive. As I type this, I am realizing all of the nonsense the Waschers have been talking about fits into this idea more neatly than I thought. People won't know they have mixed morph frogs unless they start breeding pairs and getting all kinds of funky offspring.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Kudos to Doug from me as well.

Grendel88, I think that you are on to something. Perhaps this is what their FrogMatch software and checkout inquiry system is all about ? ...just spits out the physical attributes the customer wants and then it's off to physically find the matching frog ?

Previously on their site I seem to remember something that was along the lines that they would love to have visitors to their facility, but the visitors would need to sign a confidentiality agreement to protect intellectual property of their process. If what you mentioned could be going on then this is perhaps something that they wouldn't want to see the light of day ?

The old saying about skeletons in the closet, etc for some reason came into my mind right now.

Proprietary information isn't always pretty....but it is guarded.



Compare the scenario that you mentioned to their statement:


> Our FROGMATCH™ program is designed to help everyone find what they want. Also, every time you make a purchase, you will be prompted to tell us the preferred appearance traits you are looking for. We like this example. Early in 2013 we bought a great hunting dog as a pup. Our one and only dog is from a champion master hunter blood line. He is a long bodied lab and swims like seal. He has incredible drive and stamina, a beautiful face and conformation, and pure bred muscle tone. He is our pet, our hunting companion, and our shop buddy. We chose a black male lab, not a yellow lab, or chocolate lab, but a black one. Why? We wanted a black one. The choice was ours and we want your pet frog choice to be yours. Why would we send you a deep dark blue azureus if you like the light blue ones? Now you can get a choice too
> 
> So remember, if you want a frog having specific traits or characteristics, or desire a group of colorful frogs that can be housed together, our FROGMATCH selection software and checkout inquiry is built in to help you get what YOU want. Our customers can simply select the frog they desire by age, click the FROGMATCH link to assemble a compatible group, and at checkout tell us the visible characteristics they desire most for each one. Based on your input, we will hand pick every frog that best fulfills your requests to the best of our availability, and we do do have the MOST FROGS anywhere! This lets you, our valued customer, know YOUR selection matters most, because we hate the "you get what you get" approach to buying and selling any pet!



There is also the section on their Tennesee's WildSide TV that alludes to the raising frogs in groups being fine:


> Dad Wascher's comment:
> Josh's Frogs has strategically placed their YouTube video immediately after ours. They follow us like that all the time.
> 
> Listen to what they say in their video and know a lot of it is nonsense.
> 
> For example, even the experts say raising frogs in groups is fine.


Now they are discrediting Josh's Frogs? and JF is following them "like that all the time" ?


As has been stated a few times by Rick, this is Dillon's (and his brothers') company.......If Dillon went along with the nonsense above with posting the incorrect filial generation nomenclature, then perhaps he would have been better served staying in school and brushing up on basic genetics.

I asked my daughter (a junior in HS), and even she knew the correct definition and usage of filial generation numbers....she's not even "Bio centric" in interests.


----------



## grendel88

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thats exactly what I am thinking. We have been focusing a lot on the mixed morph frogs while not questioning the other "pure" lines they sell. We know their parent stock is from reputable sources so I have no doubt they have the ability to sell frogs that really are what they are claimed to be. However, at this point I think we have established the fact that Rick can and will stoop to any level to push forth his agenda (whatever that may be and frankly, who knows at this point). While I credit LLL for taking a stand, their statement still leads me to believe they might do business with DFW in the future should a few "anomalies" be cleared up. The reputation of DFW at this point leads me to think that believing them at their word on anything is a fallacy, simply because they said it. I would question the lineage of ANY animal that is sold by them. 

On a side note, I think it is funny that Rick continues to believe he is an innovator in every single thing he does. Maybe there is a reason people don't do things the way he does? Just sayin.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> More comedy from the Wascher warehouse ...
> 
> F0=FrogZero ...almost choked on my lunch laughing ... keep the laughs coming Ricky!


Gawd that was painful to get through...

They sucked Donn back in so I figure I'm in good company and it's worth a few comments even though I'm really trying to play nice...

So anyways, I see they are still under the impression that hybrids can't be fertile... wrong period, but especially since their cross morph/variety frogs are considered hybrids according to Webster's... so double wrong. Continuing to provide bad info... strike 1

A lot of that (IMO) especially the crap at the very end seems to try and insinuate and/or lead readers to the false conclusion that Usafrog wishes we had: that cross variety frogs are the only real choice if not inbreeding or raping the wild... BS, strike 2

Trashed other breeder lines as "junk". OK 10 years in and I'm not aware of one established/well known line of frogs that can't produce healthy/viable offspring when good husbandry is applied. Someone have an example? Am I wrong? No? ...Then I call BS strike 3

And... Strike 4, 
The dig at Josh's frogs was in poor taste. Rick/kids... you have very few supporters, and are making way more enemies then friends. Maybe it is time to stop crapping on other vendors, breeders, and actual scientists that have a rep you could only dream of getting given how much (IMO) BS, misinformation, lies, and other distasteful shenanigans you have pulled so far.

(This is just from their "turn over a new leaf" statements, otherwise we are on like strike 50? ...Sorry lost count )


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Rick Wascher/USA Frog said:


> Dad Wascher's comment:
> Josh's Frogs has strategically placed their YouTube video immediately after ours. They follow us like that all the time.


You sir, fail at the Internet. Most kids in grade school know how Google/YouTube recommend the videos that follow the one you're currently watching but apparently you don't. Sad really. Josh's frogs cannot place their video strategically and immediately after yours, even if they wanted to. Something tells me that Josh's would prefer to avoid any association with USA Frog.

It's quite comical that you accuse them of following you, when the exact opposite is true. I've never heard or seen them make any statement whatsoever about USA Frog, but we have all seen the numerous attempts by USA Frog to discredit, attack, and libel other good respectable companies.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

No dislikes / likes on the YouTube video yet?

Too bad comments are disabled.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Tzunu'un said:


> No dislikes / likes on the YouTube video yet?
> 
> Too bad comments are disabled.


They got tired of us posting factual accurate information there, links to this thread, etc. so they disabled them. They got trolled pretty hard by a few viewers too, and the comments were overwhelmingly critical. At one point the positive to negative ratio of thumbs up to down was 1:20. That, negatively affects viewership, so they had to pull the original video and repost in with comments and thumbs up/down disabled. ironically, while USA Feogs apparently bleed freedom and piss red white and blue, they're not too fond of freedom of expression...


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



ZookeeperDoug said:


> That whole section is just laughable. Further evidence, Dillion would have been better served staying in school.


The writing style suggests it was probably Ricky, but either way the ignorance is just hilarious ...

A second grader with access to wikipedia would have a better understanding of filial generations.


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

The mistake we make is assuming Rick cares about things like actual science, and facts. I know his type all too well. You can show every fact and paper in a journal and book that contradicts his stand, but it won't matter. He doesn't care about it and it won't affect how he writes all that garbage, or the ridiculous message he's trying to peddle. The only thing that will affect him at this point are legitimate legal challenges to things on the website, which Doug has been on top of, or serious financial losses. Which, hopefully, he's currently experiencing.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

More comedy:



usafrog website said:


> We have about 8 lines of the Tinctorius Powder Grey and another 8 of the powder blue. We call them LUNAR™ by or trademark. *Most of the powder grey and powder blue frogs are very athletic, and some are "rude". "Rudeness" means if they want to go from point A to point B in your enclosure, they may walk on another frog. This is not aggression, just plain rudeness*.
> 
> How do we pick the right LUNAR™ powder grey or blue if you want one?
> *We also have the friendly social lines identified too!* They are a customer favorite! So, if you want a powder grey or powder blue in your group, rest assured we will you send you one of the FROGMATCH frogs that will socialize perfectly.
> 
> How about the Oyapok, isn't it a medium tinctorius?
> Our adult Oyapoks (we call them APOLLO™), are a large white spotted frog with royal blue legs. Like ALL Oyapoks, they start out more medium sized, but of the various Oyapok frogs available anywhere, we have what we believe are some of the largest Oyapok frog lines too. We would select and send big Oyapoks perfect for your colorful group!


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

What the (expletive deleted) are they talking about. 
Rudeness really. 
These guys are they craziest (expletive deleted) to ever think they have a grasp on science and understanding of animals. 
You have a social line to huh? 
So what one of your "researchers" (pause to shake that word and it's relation to them out of your head) watches frogs all day and then says what "this one didn't step on anyone in our overcrowded tanks so he is friendly".
I wonder sometimes if they put this crazy (expletive deleted) out there just to give us all a headache.


----------



## JMims

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I've never heard of "socialized" frogs. They're not dogs that you can just select for good temperament...


----------



## Dane

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> More comedy: Originally Posted by usafrog website
> We have about 8 lines of the Tinctorius Powder Grey and another 8 of the powder blue. We call them LUNAR™ by or trademark. Most of the powder grey and powder blue frogs are very athletic, and some are "rude". "Rudeness" means if they want to go from point A to point B in your enclosure, they may walk on another frog. This is not aggression, just plain rudeness.


Strange that the Waschers, in all their benevolent wisdom, would be breeding 'rude' lines to begin with. I'm surprised that with all their genetic mastery, they aren't producing frogs that are entirely polite, and will sit down to tea with their tankmates when a tiny table is set before them.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Speaking of videos that actually "strategically follow immediately after" USA Frogs video, people might want to take a look at the video that, at least on my YouTube feed immediately follows the TN Wildlife Video.

It is an Unboxing video by someone called Catching Creation. Comments there are currently open. People who might see, what looks like to me, a commercial for USA Frog, deserve more information.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Thanks Doug for bringing the additional YouTube video to light.

Everyone should look at it and judge for yourself.

It's useful to sort the comments to most recent.
If you do you will notice this:



> Velvet _ 2 months ago
> Sadly, it just looks like a badly rehearsed commercial spot for USA Frogs
> 
> Reply ·
> 
> CatchingCreation 2 months ago
> Dang you got me. Haha got to work on my commercials I guess. Or I didn't feel like doing 100 takes for an unboxing video. Thanks for watching either way.


What is more disturbing to me is:


> TheClawMachineManiac 2 weeks ago
> I just want to say thank you for posting this video. I've been searching for good breeders, and have never come across USA frog. Because of this video, I found them and ordered 24 beautiful tinctoriouses! I'm still waiting to have them shipped, because I'm building a large vivarium. Thank you again very much!


Would any of you that breed/raise/sell dart frogs not have red flags come up / think twice if a person said that they wanted to buy 24 dart frogs from you and put them in one vivarium they are building? Sadly I fear that this person may be young / new to the hobby. 

Proper information has to get out to the mainstream to keep a potential catastophe for the frogs / newbies from happening.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



Tzunu'un said:


> Thanks Doug for bringing the additional YouTube video to light.
> 
> Everyone should look at it and judge for yourself.
> 
> It's useful to sort the comments to most recent.
> If you do you will notice this:
> 
> 
> 
> What is more disturbing to me is:
> 
> 
> Would any of you that breed/raise/sell dart frogs not have red flags come up / think twice if a person said that they wanted to buy 24 dart frogs from you and put them in one vivarium they are building? Sadly I fear that this person may be young / new to the hobby.
> 
> Proper information has to get out to the mainstream to keep a potential catastophe for the frogs / newbies from happening.


To us yes that would be a huge issue. We give a damn about our frogs and our hobby. These people are just greedy imbeciles. They was a huge payday that they would never pass up. I'm sure they told them how great it would be mix and match the frogs also.


----------



## MasterOogway

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I had to stop watching when he brought up the forbidden topic. It reads like a massive scripted ad for DFW. I wouldn't be surprised if half the comments on there were from alt accounts from DFW. Everyday they make me lose a bit more of my faith in humanity. I'm gonna go drink a beer now to wash that foul taste out of my mouth.


----------



## Tzunu'un

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

It seems the dislikes have gone up recently for some reason. 

Luckily there is one comment there that points people to the DB thread and the wealth of info....but sadly with most of Generation Z wanting info fast and now, they probably won't take the effort to go there to educate themselves.


----------



## meboyer1987

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I've been reading everyone's posts on here. So glad I found this thread! I have no dart frogs as of yet. Was looking at buying from them.... Yikes! Didn't agree with housing different kinds together as they claim you can, but want some different ones, so was looking at creating several vivs. I know crossbreading is a bad idea. Never would have thought people would attempt it and sell them! Was escite, their frogs were cheap! Not worth that though. Want healthy frogs, and not looking to go into business or anything, but thought it might be a fun endeavor to possibly try and breed. Anyone please tell me good places to find frogs? Josh's I believe is a good site. Was considering getting some from Carolina Dart frog as they live 3 hrs from me. Thought picking them up myself and keeping the car at a good temp in their containers might be a good option. (Please tell me if this is not) Looking at starting out, any advice/help is greatly appreciated! Is a 10 gallon viv enough room for 2 adult frogs?


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



meboyer1987 said:


> I've been reading everyone's posts on here. So glad I found this thread! I have no dart frogs as of yet. Was looking at buying from them.... Yikes! Didn't agree with housing different kinds together as they claim you can, but want some different ones, so was looking at creating several vivs. I know crossbreading is a bad idea. Never would have thought people would attempt it and sell them! Was escite, their frogs were cheap! Not worth that though. Want healthy frogs, and not looking to go into business or anything, but thought it might be a fun endeavor to possibly try and breed. Anyone please tell me good places to find frogs? Josh's I believe is a good site. Was considering getting some from Carolina Dart frog as they live 3 hrs from me. Thought picking them up myself and keeping the car at a good temp in their containers might be a good option. (Please tell me if this is not) Looking at starting out, any advice/help is greatly appreciated! Is a 10 gallon viv enough room for 2 adult frogs?


Glad that this thread helped you out.
So that it doesn't get diluted you should start a thread in the beginner section to get your questions answered.


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

USA Frog Supply - Pet frogs, and products we use and GUARANTEE!

Frogs for $1.00 !?! I think Ricky has finally lost it ...



frogsupply.com website said:


> Undisputed Frog Facts
> The experts say, "Yes! It is PERFECTLY natural behavior for these frogs to:"
> 1. Live in a colorful group long term. (We raise them socially from a baby.)
> 2. Mix lineages, or varieties, of the same species when breeding, because they do it in the wild.
> 3. Have improved genetics when the parents differ in lineage, or variety.
> 4. Bond with their owners and become friends with them. (These frogs can live into their teens.)
> 5. Officially classify these frogs by species ONLY (i.e., Tinctorius, Auratus or Leucomelas), not variety. (Variety names have absolutely NO official significance or scientific weight whatsoever.)


----------



## edwardsatc

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

I guess this explains it ???



frogsupply.com website said:


> Each wholesale frog is priced at $1 for convenience. This allows the customer to easily determine how many frogs they have selected. When they reach 24 or 48 the cart is complete and the process of final selection can begin. Some quantities are limited on purpose. This allows the pricing to stay lower for all customers as a good variety is required, but the actual composition is selected by the customer
> 
> For example, when the cart shows $23 in frogs, the customer knows there is one more frog to add to reach 24. When the final selection is made and either $24 or $48 is in the cart, the customer may check out using the process below, and selecting the final charge corresponding to the number of frogs they are buying. This is shown in Checkout Step 2 below under PAYMENT. $24 plus $386 equals $410 for the 24 pack. Similarly, when the customer has $48 in their cart they know they have 48 frogs. The $48 plus the $702 final charge, brings the total to $750 as quoted.
> 
> This nominal allows each frog to be selected with equal weight because they are all magnificent, and availability being the limiting factor to help encourage a broad range selection. As this site grows in functionality we will automate this process to make it easier, but for now, this is pretty good and very intuitive.


----------



## Aldross

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

Now if your gonna share stuff from their what 20th website you gotta add all the tripe.
How do you trademark VIVARIUM READY™.
Oh and Satisfaction Guarantees. What about those customers that bought frogs from you then instantly regretted it once the found out about your appalling business practices?
What about when someone does buy that 48 pack of frogs. The only person willing to buy from you is someone new to the hobby. So you plan is to sell them more frogs than they can handle before they even know how to culture mass amounts of flies. Will you honor your 100% Satisfaction Guarantees then and return their money when several die due not knowing what they are undertaking.
If a new person asked me for more than a few frogs I would try and talk them out of it. Then again I REALLY like my frogs and their offspring. I only want them to succeed is their little frog lives. You only care about the almighty dollar.


> 1. SAFE® captive bred, completely harmless pet frogs.
> 2. The finest proven breeding stock for TOP quality, health, beauty, and strength.
> 3. VIVARIUM READY™ social frogs perfect for lifetime colorful groups.
> 4. Largest in-stock inventory of frogs of this kind (i.e., Dendrobates).
> 5. Best Price Anywhere - Guaranteed.
> 6. Best Packaging—coolers and phase packs, heaters when needed. (NO panel boxes.)
> 7. Best Shipping—ONE HOP™ from the FedEx Global Hub. (Usually 12 hrs. or less from us to you.)
> 8. Best Guarantees—Live Arrival, Perfect Health, AND Satisfaction Guarantees. Nobody else offers all three.
> 9. Family friendly customer service.
> 10. Excellent Customer Reviews.


----------



## Boondoggle

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



That Ridiculous Site said:


> The experts say, "Yes! It is PERFECTLY natural behavior for these frogs to:"
> 1. Live in a colorful group long term. (We raise them socially from a baby.)
> 2. Mix lineages, or varieties, of the same species when breeding, because they do it in the wild.
> 3. Have improved genetics when the parents differ in lineage, or variety.
> 4. Bond with their owners and become friends with them. (These frogs can live into their teens.)
> 5. Officially classify these frogs by species ONLY (i.e., Tinctorius, Auratus or Leucomelas), not variety. (Variety names have absolutely NO official significance or scientific weight whatsoever.)


Man, I guess this is the hill they've chosen to die on. The experts HAVE spoken. We saw the email. If I remember right they said your use of fact #5 to support lies #1-#4 was "disgusting". They commented specifically and clearly on this point. Correct me if I'm wrong, Rick, was that the term?...disgusting?


----------



## Dendro Dave

*re: Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*



edwardsatc said:


> USA Frog Supply - Pet frogs, and products we use and GUARANTEE!
> 
> Frogs for $1.00 !?! I think Ricky has finally lost it ...


OK I call BS, since each point is so wrong, half true, and/or vague, that IMO overall we'd be justified taking the statements officially as another lie by them. 

What experts? 
The one who called em on their BS and got raked over the coals for speaking up when they misused his work and twisted his words? 

The other scientists and experienced breeders here calling them on their BS, and who Usafrog says are wrong or out to get you?

The commercial breeder supposedly stalking them on YouTube? (LoL, Rick).

The supplement company who's put more effort into designing good frog supplements probably then anyone else, who's products Usafrog say are crap?

1. Where are these packs of mixed morph frogs roaming the jungles together as friends and I assume terrorizing the local ff population? 

Nature does it? ...ya, not like you and the kids do it Rick!

2. This is misleading and Rick is splitting hairs IMO to serve his $$$ agenda. Ya it happens, but to our knowledge not nearly as much as he insinuates, especially in the lifespan of the typical wild frog. And he repeatedly ignores that many of the morphs he works with haven't crossed paths in the wild for years if not eons. 

Chances are natural selection kicks their ass at least as much as any of the pure breds, making whatever changes the ones that survive and can breed bring to the main population occur incrementally over evolutionary timescales. Much different then 3-4 years of frankenfrog experiments in the basement or tool shed. There is a difference between a few random convergences and an entirely new self sustaining/viable frog variety.

3. Others have pointed out how this isn't always true and can actually cause problems... and "improved" in who's mind? The hobby has officially considered this practice as taboo and the frogs as tainted, since before Rick arrived to save us from ourselves. This like a lot of what Rick claims is true, only seems to exist within his own mind, and maybe that of a few other misfits over the years.

4. Anthropomorphic BS: pseudo science at best, and a thinly veiled marketing attempt that IMO misleads people intentionally. If you wanna name your frog fine, but if you are actually interested in learning about their behavior this kinda thinking when taken to seriously just muddles the truth.

Even #5...
The one that might come closest to some semblance of the truth can be viewed as incorrect because while scientists may not need to distinguish more then by species, (but still said it was irresponsible to mix species or varieties), the hobby has a long history of making the morph and/or locality pretty damned/officially important, to the extent that virtually every respected breeder uses those distinctions in identifying and marketing their frogs, and that seems to officially be real important to the majority of us... so much so that the community takes up its torches and pitchforks every time someone pulls this crap, and we have several threads on several forums, and posts on Facebook, and legit scientist calling foul/BS on Usafrog for their shenanigans.

IMO, Usafrog is officially public enemy # 1 in this hobby. 




edwardsatc said:


> I guess this explains it ???


Um isn't that the definition of "bait and switch", which is illegal? Whatever thin justification they try to give for it? ...Wow I knew Rick was targeting the new and uninformed, but even I assumed these people would be able do simple addition, at least on a calculator. 

I guess it is hard to have any trust in your buyer, when you've earned the distrust of the majority hobby community. I guess that is why he IMO has to create his own reality to live in, try to suck others into his delusions, and then has to ply them with BS, sketchy business practices, sleazy marketing, and cheap frogs in the hopes they will come live with him in LA LA land, where Rick decides what is true for everyone, and helps us with our maths from his throne of meglomania in the capital city of Sleazville, which must reside behind the impenetrable walls of castle delusion. 

Rick...Winter is coming 
And you are on the wrong side of the wall.


----------



## carola1155

today is a sad day...

With the addition of "frogsupply" I've now actually run out of space (character limit) in the title of this thread to add any additional names they try to peddle through...


----------



## Aldross

carola1155 said:


> today is a sad day...
> 
> With the addition of "frogsupply" I've now actually run out of space (character limit) in the title of this thread to add any additional names they try to peddle through...


You should remove that post Tom. Now they will change the name just so it doesn't show up here.


----------



## Dendro Dave

carola1155 said:


> today is a sad day...
> 
> With the addition of "frogsupply" I've now actually run out of space (character limit) in the title of this thread to add any additional names they try to peddle through...



Between that, Rick's mouth, and the upcoming "products to avoid" page he advertised which will likely result in further fiasco... might be time for a companion companion thread!


----------



## BrainBug

The "Must have Frog Care" section of the new site should be titled "Why set up an awesome vivarium for your animals when you can be mediocre like us?"

However these made me smile.

Copy and pasted from the FrogSupply "must have frog care" section:

- "Solution: Buy a bag of larva rock from your home garden store (Home Depot, Lowes, or even Walmart)." 

What kind of larva?


-"Sometimes the Walmart pant will have slugs, and they can be a nuisance to get rid of later."

Ew, someone should tell Walmart about the slugs in their pants.

-"If you have a hardwood forest near you, take a trip, fill a bag with fallen leaves, and you are done."

I find it humorous how they talk about the risks of disease with bringing in wild caught frogs yet make no mention of cleaning the leaves in any way. They also imply that typical potting or garden soil should be used as substrate.


----------



## Aldross

It's all part of their elaborate ploy. 
Step one. Trick unsuspecting buyers into buying from them.
Step two. Give awful advise that can lead to the death of frogs.
Step three. Edit website to say other random nonsense disclaiming previous advise.
Step four. Convince buyer that it was their fault for doing things previously advised.
Step five. Sell them more frogs


----------



## Ed

If you declare yourself as an expert elsewhere on the page then you can make claims that the experts agree with you as there isn't any indication who they are referring to as "experts" in the claims. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## allegedhuman

Wow! I guess they can add another snappy description to go along with their statement that they are the “ONLY” seller that offers a live arrival, health and satisfaction guarantee upon arrival (which they later qualified with a “that we know of” but looks like they took off that weak qualifier again) is this beauty

Most expensive shipping and handling of ANY frog seller…anywhere. Period!

Because when you list frogs as $1 when adding them to your cart and, as they calculated;
24 frogs shows $24 dollars in the cart. Ok. Time to check out and pay…wait…My $24 dollar frogs now have another $386 dollars added and the total is $410???? WTF? Standard shipping and handling is in the $40 dollar range? Where did I go wrong? Why does a company have to explain how they calculate the cart cost of a purchase when most consumers are pretty savvy at 
1. See price listed for what you want to buy.
2. Add items to cart 
3. Checkout and calculate shipping (if not already stated) 
4. Pay. Easy! But noope. DFW has to add their own trademark (patent pending) spin to the simple order transaction.

So either this is the most expensive shipping and handling anywhere or we can now just add deceptive pricing as one of the other immoral business practice to associate with DFW. A “$” symbol means “dollars” not “number of frogs”. If calling it and using $ to mean something else like number of frogs is supposed to be another attempt to radically revise the meaning of basic, well-established terms like F1 now meaning frog 1 vs filial # or “undisputed facts” I think the real business DFW should go into is selling should involve mind-altering substances because at this point each new additions and trying to understand why/what they are trying to say is like listening to the deep philosophical musings of a stoner circle. Lots of words come out and I’m sure they think it seems insightful at the time, but to anybody who is not flying high with them too and trying to make sense of their verbal diarrhea finds the diatribe to be a bit…Nonsensical?

I can do math. For the 24 frog pack the total cost is $410. Subtract a reasonable $40 to account for shipping and $370/24= $15.42. So the real cost of each frog is about $15…not $1. Does not that seem like deceptive advertising to you when a consumer can initially see each frog priced as $1 on the page when adding to the cart? Pretty sure this is a real obvious scheme any customer can see through and will get changed quickly on their page. False advertising. Deceptive pricing, libel. All great legal terms I would think this company would want to avoid being associated with in any way buuutt…maybe not? They are rebels.

I’m guessing their wholesale website may also be aimed to try to win back companies like LLLReptile because they can point to the page and say” Hey Look! No hybrids or crossbreeds! Just like you said you would reconsider if we stopped doing! Just normal lines for sale with our goofy names tacked on in jumbo packs of 24 or 48 $...oops sorry… Didn’t mean to confuse you slower adapters with the universal new symbol for frogs…I mean 24 or 48 frogs. 

I really hope that LLLReptile continues to avoid business with whatever DFW is calling themselves now even if they do not sell mixed morphs openly on this page. Just because DFW is trying to lead the race to the bottom for prices and wholesale distribution of frogs en masse I’d like to think they will continue to maintain a level of integrity and respect for the frog community they are serving and not associate with a company shown to repeatedly exhibited tactics, ethics and poor professionalism in their willingness to participate in deceptive marketing tactics ($1 frogs that really cost closer to $14-15 each or saying their frog lines are “the finest PROVEN breeding stock for top quality, health, beauty and strength”. I didn’t see any tests much less frog weight lifting competitions so how did they prove this again? I must have missed their self-awarded "we-R-awzum" ceremony. Or that they are the ONLY sellers that offer health guarantees when it was already pointed out the guarantees from several other companies listing an even LONGER length of time they guarantee healthy arrival, etc), the basic facts and information they twist, the scientific community they are not afraid to personally libel after 1st plagiarizing and misinterpreting that individual’s research for DFW’s professional gain, as well as bashing other companies by name (Mist-King, Repashy, Josh Frogs, etc).

Ohhh and their “undisputed frog facts”…so much wrong but so little time…Funny how they quickly fix their website to address the stupid typos, libel, and other ridiculous statements called out in this thread but they somehow still can’t figure out where they are going wrong with the data and facts…hmmm. It is like they have some kind of bias or trying to push a certain agenda for some reason and don’t want to be truthful if those facts might hurt their business model…curious indeed…

Anybody want to start a game to see how long it takes from pointing out blatantly stupid typos and other ridiculous written faux pas in this thread to how long before it gets fixed on their website? Not like I am suggesting a betting pool for how many hours it takes but just to see on average the turnaround time from reading this thread to taking action on the website? Could be educational and entertaining to see how long it takes from the first post here to “I found the Flip-Flop First” on their website. I know in the past it has been within an afternoon for some of the things I saw pointed out and addressed later with their edits and BrainBug did just listed a few nice examples we could track… Hmm?


----------



## Cormyrean

I just wanted to thank everyone who's posted in these threads. I've learned a lot about about this situation from all of your different experiences. Thanks again!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Frog Supply said:


> USA Frog Supply has rigid quality standards. We do so because we love these frogs, truly enjoy caring for them, and we want every pet frog owner to get the best frogs available.
> 
> If you are a breeder of non-standard Tinctorius frogs that are your frog offspring, and you believe you can meet our rigid quality standards, we invite you to sell your SIGNATURE™ tinctorius frogs ("SIGNATURE Tincs") here.
> 
> Like a mystery author, you can sell them here with complete anonymity if you wish. We will deal directly with you on a confidential basis, list and sell your frogs here in a SIGNATURE frog section dedicated to your work without naming you if you wish, all the while you set the price.
> 
> If you wish to be known for your work, we would love to produce a breeder profile in a private category that can accompany the frogs you wish to sell here. The profiles would help you gain customers by letting them know about you, your inspirations, and the uniqueness of the frog offspring you produce. We can even help you with your frog trademark selection, clearance, and adoption of your own brands for your frogs if you need it.
> 
> Each sale and shipment can be through us, or from you directly to the customer. After we clear the funding for your frog transaction(s) and we retain a reasonable fee*, and provide you with a shipping label and proper mailing instructions as appropriate. You will be paid after the customer receives the frogs you sent them, and we receive confirmation of their acceptance. All shipments will be through our own ShipYourFrogs enterprise that guarantees great rates. Of course, we will stand together on the live arrival, perfect health, and Satisfaction Guarantees.
> 
> If you wish, and we agree, we will store and care for your frogs here in a secure, segregated, office location within our facility, and under or expert care. When a sale occurs, we will ship them one-way from the FedEx Global Hub to the customer for you, and provide you with a complete accounting, tracking, details, and payment as soon as they are received by the customer.
> 
> If you are interested, simply let us know. We will need some info on the frogs, including a couple clear website quality photos, the number of offspring for sale, the parent lineage information, price, and any additional info you feel is helpful to get them sold, etc. ALL of your personal information and breeding info will be retained in the strictest confidence.
> 
> * SIGNATURE™ (Unique) Dendrobates Tinctorius only. You set the price for your frogs. Fees are based on order size and frog location. For more details give us a call or send us an e-mail. We will need some basic info such as your name, general location, what you have bred and want to sell, etc., to begin our discussions.


/headdesk......

Another name change to hide from the past, no doubt Rick will try to explain away that this was all part of their master plan.


Or, are they going to try to convince us that the garbage they're churning out is coming from other breeders?

Rick, if you haven't figured it out yet, we can see right through your BS.

So much for the, we don't deal with outside frogs nonsense, oh wait, segregated, and secure, as if anyone would, could, or SHOULD trust you to remain any semblance of biosecurity.

Will they test all these incoming and outgoing frogs? I seriously doubt it. They are after all, guaranteeing "perfect health".

Seriously though, another bad idea and endeavor that will fail. Honestly though, if I'm honest, Rick is the best thing thing we could have hoped for when it comes to who should "roll out hybrids and designer morphs". Could we have asked for a more hapless, clueless, and inept enterprise? If we want designer frogs to fail miserably, who better to lead the charge than the Waschers?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

FrogSupply said:


> We are closed temporarily to make some upgrades and change this corporate store to a Wholesale/Dealer focus.
> We will reopen this site later this evening or tomorrow.
> All of our future Retail Sales will be handled through our newest site:


Things are getting desperate.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*"Undisputed"* Frog Facts (From usafrog/supply)

The experts say, "Yes! It is PERFECTLY natural behavior for these frogs to:"
1. Live in a colorful group long term. (We raise them socially from a baby.)
2. Mix lineages, or varieties, of the same species when breeding, because they do it in the wild.
3. Have improved genetics when the parents differ in lineage, or variety.
4. Bond with their owners and become friends with them. (These frogs can live into their teens.)
5. Officially classify these frogs by species ONLY (i.e., Tinctorius, Auratus or Leucomelas), not variety. (Variety names have absolutely NO official significance or scientific weight whatsoever.)

*Look Rick, they are disputed...*



Dendro Dave said:


> OK I call BS, since each point is so wrong, half true, and/or vague, that IMO overall we'd be justified taking the statements officially as another lie by them.
> 
> What experts?
> The one who called em on their BS and got raked over the coals for speaking up when they misused his work and twisted his words?
> 
> The other scientists and experienced breeders here calling them on their BS, and who Usafrog says are wrong or out to get you?
> 
> The commercial breeder supposedly stalking them on YouTube? (LoL, Rick).
> 
> The supplement company who's put more effort into designing good frog supplements probably then anyone else, who's products Usafrog say are crap?
> 
> 1. Where are these packs of mixed morph frogs roaming the jungles together as friends and I assume terrorizing the local ff population?
> 
> Nature does it? ...ya, not like you and the kids do it Rick!
> 
> 2. This is misleading and Rick is splitting hairs IMO to serve his $$$ agenda. Ya it happens, but to our knowledge not nearly as much as he insinuates, especially in the lifespan of the typical wild frog. And he repeatedly ignores that many of the morphs he works with haven't crossed paths in the wild for years if not eons.
> 
> Chances are natural selection kicks their ass at least as much as any of the pure breds, making whatever changes the ones that survive and can breed bring to the main population occur incrementally over evolutionary timescales. Much different then 3-4 years of frankenfrog experiments in the basement or tool shed. There is a difference between a few random convergences and an entirely new self sustaining/viable frog variety.
> 
> 3. Others have pointed out how this isn't always true and can actually cause problems... and "improved" in who's mind? The hobby has officially considered this practice as taboo and the frogs as tainted, since before Rick arrived to save us from ourselves. This like a lot of what Rick claims is true, only seems to exist within his own mind, and maybe that of a few other misfits over the years.
> 
> 4. Anthropomorphic BS: pseudo science at best, and a thinly veiled marketing attempt that IMO misleads people intentionally. If you wanna name your frog fine, but if you are actually interested in learning about their behavior this kinda thinking when taken to seriously just muddles the truth.
> 
> Even #5...
> The one that might come closest to some semblance of the truth can be viewed as incorrect because while scientists may not need to distinguish more then by species, (but still said it was irresponsible to mix species or varieties), the hobby has a long history of making the morph and/or locality pretty damned/officially important, to the extent that virtually every respected breeder uses those distinctions in identifying and marketing their frogs, and that seems to officially be real important to the majority of us... so much so that the community takes up its torches and pitchforks every time someone pulls this crap, and we have several threads on several forums, and posts on Facebook, and legit scientist calling foul/BS on Usafrog for their shenanigans.
> 
> IMO, Usafrog is officially public enemy # 1 in this hobby.


P.S. 

USAfrog -
*"If you are a breeder of non-standard Tinctorius frogs that are your frog offspring, and you believe you can meet our rigid quality standards, we invite you to sell your SIGNATURE™ tinctorius frogs ("SIGNATURE Tincs") here. 

Like a mystery author, you can sell them here with complete anonymity if you wish. We will deal directly with you on a confidential basis, list and sell your frogs here in a SIGNATURE frog section dedicated to your work without naming you if you wish, all the while you set the price. 

If you wish to be known for your work, we would love to produce a breeder profile in a private category that can accompany the frogs you wish to sell here. The profiles would help you gain customers by letting them know about you, your inspirations, and the uniqueness of the frog offspring you produce. We can even help you with your frog trademark selection, clearance, and adoption of your own brands for your frogs if you need it. "*

*Sounds like they are trying to expand the designer frog business by being the proxy for all the other wannabe frankensteins out there. All I can say is wow, anyone who gets into bed with these people must be a moron with no self respect.*


----------



## Dane

Dendro Dave said:


> *Sounds like they are trying to expand the designer frog business by being the proxy for all the other wannabe frankensteins out there. All I can say is wow, anyone who gets into bed with these people must be a moron with no self respect.*


It's actually kind of brilliant. They are already the Uber-pariah of the dart world, why wouldn't they want to attract anyone else that has created the same stigma for themselves to join their guild? Kind of like the smallest, most ineffective "Legion of Doom" you can imagine. They even have a "secure, segregated, office location within our facility". For some reason that phrase conjures up images of hybrid henchmen guarding a secret lab that can only be reached by monorail.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Dane said:


> It's actually kind of brilliant. They are already the Uber-pariah of the dart world, why wouldn't they want to attract anyone else that has created the same stigma for themselves to join their guild? Kind of like the smallest, most ineffective "Legion of Doom" you can imagine. They even have a "secure, segregated, office location within our facility". For some reason that phrase conjures up images of hybrid henchmen guarding a secret lab that can only be reached by monorail.


Ya desperation and capitalism at their ill fated finest. I pity the fools who throws their lot in with USAfrog, (because it's going so well for them!) 

Even if you agree with their agenda, I don't see how anyone in good conscience could support how they've gone about it. 

I had 2 ferrets, I know a weasel when I see one... I hope other people are as discriminating. They are fun to keep as pets, and I enjoy their antics, but don't trust them near babies, anything valuable, or of course frogs


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

It would seem Rick has decided to double down on his misuse of Dr. Stefan Lotters et al work. He has republished his laughable justification for the creation of hybrids using their work.

Fortunately, Dr. Lötters is on the record calling Rick out on his BS and setting the record strait as to where he and the other experts stand on this issue. 



> (The excerpts used hereinbelow are insubstantial in comparison to the overall work and thus do not constitute any copyright infringement. Moreover, such use is a "fair use.")


Nice try a Ricky, but you know that doesn't pass the smell test. Should be interesting to see what The publisher has to say about that.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Interesting, not a single visible label on all those cups.

Jay mentioned earlier he though they just separated froglets as they grow out based on phenotype. Based on the multiple examples we have of them not showing any kind of labeling or quality control, I would not be at all surprised if they were doing just that.


----------



## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Interesting, not a single visible label on all those cups.
> 
> Jay mentioned earlier he though they just separated froglets as they grow out based on phenotype. Based on the multiple examples we have of them not showing any kind of labeling or quality control, I would not be at all surprised if they were doing just that.


Why label them when you believe that they should all be mixed, and have no problem shoving that agenda down the throat of the entire hobby?


----------



## Boondoggle

Dendro Dave said:


> Why label them when you believe that they should all be mixed, and have no problem shoving that agenda down the throat of the entire hobby?


Nah, that's just the Azureus room. When you have 20,000 frogs each morph gets it's own room *eyeroll*


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Boondoggle said:


> Nah, that's just the Azureus room. When you have 20,000 frogs each morph gets it's own room *eyeroll*


Azureus? Huh? Oh, you mean Malabu™ ....


----------



## MasterOogway

And yet, we're led to believe that 3 guys (kids, really) handle changing all that water, feeding all those tads, making all those fruit fly cultures, and taking care of at least 200+ breeding pairs of frogs, pulling eggs and tads, raising froglets, changing filters, AND finding time to observe each and every frog to judge it's 'temperament and character' so they can Frogmatch. Uh huh. I'll just bet. I'm pretty sure there's a saying about a bridge that's applicable here...


----------



## Tzunu'un

Seems like Frog Wasch TM.


----------



## Tzunu'un

carola1155 said:


> today is a sad day...
> 
> With the addition of "frogsupply" I've now actually run out of space (character limit) in the title of this thread to add any additional names they try to peddle through...



Remove the spaces between the forward slash then perhaps more could be squeezed in....but (as already mentioned by others) surely another companion thread will eventually be necessary to keep up with the "innovation'.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Who the hell really knows if that picture is even their place?
They won`t let you into their facility without a FBI background check and lie detector test.

Nah never mind, they would never use some one else`s picture


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Who the hell really knows if that picture is even their place?
> They won`t let you into their facility without a FBI background check and lie detector test.
> 
> Nah never mind, they would never use some one else`s picture


As funny as this is, it probably really is. I doubt it is anyone else's as knowledgeable and R esponsible breeders would have their cups clearly labeled.


----------



## Tzunu'un

Either that or it is just a staged photograph to give the impression of the tens of thousands of tadpoles they claim.

When photographers would show up to take marketing/press photographs in laboratories I worked in they would often ask for us to fill beakers and flasks with different colored liquids (often just food coloring or dyes) , and other tricks , etc. to stage the photo.

Perhaps many of the containers don't even have tadpoles in them and are just filled with water, etc for the photograph with the number of containers to give the impression of size of their operation.

Hard to tell with these guys.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Tzunu'un said:


> Either that or it is just a staged photograph to give the impression of the tens of thousands of tadpoles they claim.
> 
> When photographers would show up to take marketing/press photographs in laboratories I worked in they would often ask for us to fill beakers and flasks with different colored liquids (often just food coloring or dyes) , and other tricks , etc. to stage the photo.
> 
> Perhaps many of the containers don't even have tadpoles in them and are just filled with water, etc for the photograph with the number of containers to give the impression of size of their operation.
> 
> Hard to tell with these guys.



Good point, that wouldn't surprise me either. You can see obvious tads in the close ones though. 

If we assume that room is real, I look at it as a giant hard to manage mess. If you compare their setup, stacked small cups with lids, to the way some other knowledgeable and experienced breeders are using, their system looks time consuming and inefficient. I pity the person he who has to deal with that mess everyday. You'ld think with as awesome as they say they are, that they'd have a better system of managing tads. It's one thing to do it this way, if you're an individual raising a small number of frogs, that's one thing, but doing it this way, with as many frogs as they claim to have.....?


----------



## Brian317

All those non-labeled cups...when you have a bright green sharpie and a roll of masking tape on top of one of the tad containers. Just getting lazy now DFW....


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## brendan0923

The thing that bothers me about USA Frog is the fact that their entire website just looks like a shady marketing scheme created entirely for profit. The trademarks everywhere, the slogans, the constant pseudo-science being shoved down your throat every page you click...nothing about it seems genuine and sincere...the website makes it seem like they don't really care about the welfare of the animals and are just concerned about turning a profit. That may or may not be the case, but their buisiness tactics and misuse of information sure make it seem that way...


----------



## Pseudosilence

i saw tincs being sold at petco, if they come from us darts, then its over... the hobby will now follow the route of the guppy or ball pythons (you wont know what your getting).


----------



## MasterOogway

Pseudosilence said:


> i saw tincs being sold at petco, if they come from us darts, then its over... the hobby will now follow the route of the guppy or ball pythons (you wont know what your getting).


They don't come directly from dfw, but who knows where their suppliers get them. I'm pretty sure though someone else has asked around and the suppliers were not, at the time, getting them from dfw. That could have changed since then though, who knows.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

They Don`t. Not here in CT anyway


----------



## Hobbes1911

I'm confused (and have no idea/experience about raising frogs), but lots with having aquariums. Couldn't you just put all the tadpoles from one morph into a big tank and keep 100's per aquarium (with appropriate care hardware/set-ups per tank) and save on all that cup space/work/bs? 
**NO attempt to derail, just a question that came to mind with that pic**


----------



## Aldross

Hobbes1911 said:


> I'm confused (and have no idea/experience about raising frogs), but lots with having aquariums. Couldn't you just put all the tadpoles from one morph into a big tank and keep 100's per aquarium (with appropriate care hardware/set-ups per tank) and save on all that cup space/work/bs?
> **NO attempt to derail, just a question that came to mind with that pic**


No. Many types have hormone limiting so they don't grow well together. Some will also cannibalize their siblings.


----------



## Ed

Aldross said:


> No. Many types have hormone limiting so they don't grow well together.


Has there been proof that this does occur as opposed to avoidance and competition for a limited resource? 

I know I've anecdotally reported that in R. amazonica, I've seen what I considered to be hormone control of growth and the timing of metamorphosis but I didn't confirm that was what was happening as opposed to one tadpole controlling access to the best resources through competition, predation or even aggression. 

In any case there are multiple examples in the hobby literature where people have communally reared tadpoles of tinctorious, leucomelas, auratus, and so forth with success. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Aldross

Ed said:


> Has there been proof that this does occur as opposed to avoidance and competition for a limited resource?
> 
> I know I've anecdotally reported that in R. amazonica, I've seen what I considered to be hormone control of growth and the timing of metamorphosis but I didn't confirm that was what was happening as opposed to one tadpole controlling access to the best resources through competition, predation or even aggression.
> 
> In any case there are multiple examples in the hobby literature where people have communally reared tadpoles of tinctorious, leucomelas, auratus, and so forth with success.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I pulled that information from here.
I have also seen in my own collection when I raise them together some will grow at near double the pace of others when grouped but when raised alone they grow at the same pace. 
Since I am no researcher I don't consider my own antidotal evidence as proof though.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14606-dendrobates-azureus-tinctorius-novice.html



> Eggs and tadpoles are typically black (with the exception of albinos), with the tads gaining color only just before the front legs emerge. Tadpoles can be raised communally or individually.* If raised communally, it should be noted that these species do exhibit hormone limiting.* Tadpoles should be fed a varied diet, including tropical fish flakes, frog and tadpole bites and specialty mixes distributed by breeders (Ed's Fly Meat Tadpole Food, MJM Tadpole Food, AZDR tadpole food, Josh's Frogs Tadpole Food). Do not use completely algae based diets as these result in smaller froglets. Instead algae should be used as a supplement to the above listed base diets.


----------



## brendan0923

Aldross said:


> I pulled that information from here.
> I have also seen in my own collection when I raise them together some will grow at near double the pace of others when grouped but when raised alone they grow at the same pace.
> Since I am no researcher I don't consider my own antidotal evidence as proof though.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14606-dendrobates-azureus-tinctorius-novice.html


I have observed similar growth rates between all leucomelas tadpoles raised communally. 

When I raise D.leucomelas tadpoles communally they tend to not only grow faster, but larger than individually raised tadpoles. They all morph about the same size, some maybe being slightly bigger or smaller, but no major difference. I can't speak for all species, but I haven't seen a growth limiting factor in leucomelas.

EDIT: Misread the post. My bad.


----------



## MasterOogway

While that may be true; that doesn't confirm hormone limiting. Could just be behavioral. Dominance exhibited by one tad would give you exactly the same thing. I'll dig around in the literature if I have time today, but I'd guess if Ed doesn't know about any papers looking into this, it probably hasn't been researched too heavily.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Back on topic.



USA Frog said:


> This new section will adress EVERY question you send us! Fire away!
> 
> 
> Q: I live in Phoenix.Can I order frogs from you and expect them to arrive in good health?
> A: Not only expect it, we GUARANTEE IT!!! ONE HOP™ Shipping


Every question eh? How about you start with some of the questions we've asked you here. I can think of a few.

Why did you resort to libel when a well respected scientist asked you to stop misusing his work?

Why did you libel Repashy products? Why did you pull the section on your Study/battle claiming other products are superior?

Why did you lie when you said you wouldn't product hybrids or what you refer to as mixed race frogs?

*DO YOU TEST YOUR FROGS?* If so, for what? By whom? 

You claim that you need pictures for a fed ex claim, yet fedex does NOT insure live animals. Care to explain?

You claim methylparaben is bad for frogs. Based on what research or evidence?



Feel free to have at them though guys. No way Rick can even hope to answer the questions we'd ask him. If you do send him some questions, be sure to save the emails and post them here to prove he won't answer them.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

"Adress" our questions????

They can`t even spell it!!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I`ll toss a question out their way.

I always love hearing from Wavy Gravy and the Merry Pranksters


----------



## tardis101

Ed said:


> Has there been proof that this does occur as opposed to avoidance and competition for a limited resource?
> 
> I know I've anecdotally reported that in R. amazonica, I've seen what I considered to be hormone control of growth and the timing of metamorphosis but I didn't confirm that was what was happening as opposed to one tadpole controlling access to the best resources through competition, predation or even aggression.
> 
> In any case there are multiple examples in the hobby literature where people have communally reared tadpoles of tinctorious, leucomelas, auratus, and so forth with success.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I have my p. terribilis, d tinctorious (two color morphs), leucomelas, and auratus tadpoles all in the same 29 gallon planted fish tank (also has a couple neon tetras, one hatchet fish, and one cory cat). 

At first I kept them individually in 32 oz cups, but I had a fairly high mortality rate. When I ran out of space, out of desperation, I starting putting them into my fish tanks. The fish tank tads did significantly better than the ones in cups (they grew faster and fewer died). Now all my tadpoles go into the 29 gallon tank.

I keep the tads in floating live bearer traps. One species per trap, as few as 3 tads per trap, but as many as 10. Sometimes as many as 4 dozen tadpoles (right now there are about two dozen). I only occasionally loose a tadpole (I think 3 in the last year) and they appear to grow faster than the ones I used to keep in individual cups. A few occasionally get loose into the tank. Eventually I catch them again, usually when their front legs erupt and they are hanging out at the surface. A couple times after they've morphed.


----------



## srrrio

What do you do with all those all those supremely cross contaminated tads you are raising ?


----------



## Dane

tardis101 said:


> I have my p. terribilis, d tinctorious (two color morphs), leucomelas, and auratus tadpoles all in the same 29 gallon planted fish tank (also has a couple neon tetras, one hatchet fish, and one cory cat).


How different are your tinctorious species? Could an aberrant froglet of one morph be confused for the other?


----------



## Dendro Dave

We're veering a bit off topic, but I suspect that some of the success seen in communal setups, especially (but not necessarily) from less experienced keepers may be due to the difficulty in maintaining water quality in a deli cup or something similar. A larger tank is likely to be more stable, and more forgiving if there is over feeding, over population, factors like to many or to much water change, stress from futzing with the cup/tad, etc... etc... and that may in many cases overcome any effects produced by inhibiting hormones, (Just a theory). I would very much like to know how much if any filtration aids in ridding the water of inhibiting compounds, and how fast they typically break down in various conditions... I assume they loose their potency fairly quickly, and filtration would have some effect... but I don't know 

Back on topic...

When other people see this thread pop up in their subscribed thread list do they (like me) think... "Oh Gawd, what have they done now!!!"  ???


----------



## pa.walt

just wondering where are they advertising. haven't seen any of their ads on kingsnake.


----------



## carola1155

Dendro Dave said:


> We're veering a bit off topic


for the record... He said it... not me


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

carola1155 said:


> for the record... He said it... not me


I said it too!

I think the writing is on the wall for USA Frog.


----------



## Dendro Dave

(Starting on topic..) USAfrog (IMHO) = Bad 



carola1155 said:


> for the record... He said it... not me


And that it came from me I'm pretty sure is one of the final signs that the end is near and/or hell hath frozen over 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I said it too!
> 
> I think the writing is on the wall for USA Frog.


Bow to Zardoz Doug!!!! 

P.S.
(Ending on topic...) I agree... USAfrog (IMHO)= Bad, go away soon I hope it does.


----------



## kcexotics

pa.walt said:


> just wondering where are they advertising. haven't seen any of their ads on kingsnake.


An "under ground" FL importer are pimping out their frogs on KS


----------



## CAPTAIN RON

I think we have known this for a spell! Thanks for alerting the noobs though!


----------



## pa.walt

kcexotics said:


> An "under ground" FL importer are pimping out their frogs on KS


yeah underground has been allegedly selling frogs from them but they use to have their own ads. 5-6 at a time.


----------



## edwardsatc

Compare these two pages (both from USAFrog) and see if you can see a problem:

True Sip pet frogs | FROG SUPPLY - USA Frog Wholesale

QUASAR (True Sip) pet frogs

Just I case they remove something here’s the text of each:



”USAfrog website” said:


> QUASAR frogs are amazing! The name QUASAR fits because the coloration & pattern looks like some images taken by the Hubble Telescope.
> The original Sipaliwini Savannah (formerly "True Sip") is purportedly "[o]ne of the few tinctorius morphs with known locality data."* The USA Frog captive bred DESIGNER® QUASAR™ looks IDENTICAL to the Sipalwini Savannah*. You be the judge, and remember, not all wild frog populations are isolated and the experts did say the various colors morphs of these frogs do openly breed in the wild. (The experts also say even the "isolated populations" have come together repeatedly and spatially (same location) over the last 11,000 years.
> We are in NO WAY saying, the Sipaliwini Savannah frog (top) is a mixture of a "base" color morph, nor are we saying it is not wild caught, etc. We simply do not know where it came from, but the data and caption says it does exist in the wild!





”Frogsupply.com website” said:


> QUASAR frogs are amazing! The name QUASAR fits because the coloration & pattern looks like some images taken by the Hubble Telescope.
> Official Name (Species): Dendrobates tinctorius
> Generic Name (Variety): Sipaliwini Savannah (True Sip) dart frogs
> USA Frog Brand Name (Trademark): QUASAR
> Group compatible with ALL these: Tinctorius of similar age
> SAFE® captive bred and raised in the U.S.A. by: USA Frog, Bartlett, TN, U.S.A.
> Captive Bred (CB) F1 or (CB) F2 Base Color Morph (BCM) parent(s): First Generation and Non-Sibling Offspring


No mention of being designer in the second ad. So are these True Sips or Frankenfrogs … ???

I think this is what many of have feared ... mixed morph frogs being marketed as true morphs.


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> Compare these two pages (both from USAFrog) and see if you can see a problem:
> 
> True Sip pet frogs | FROG SUPPLY - USA Frog Wholesale
> 
> QUASAR (True Sip) pet frogs
> 
> Just I case they remove something here’s the text of each:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No mention of being designer in the second ad. So are these True Sips or Frankenfrogs … ???
> 
> I think this is what many of have feared ... mixed morph frogs being marketed as true morphs.


Yep, and wow look at those verbal gymnastics in an attempt to justify it all. 

USAfrog, you're wrong, you know you're wrong... the website edits, and all the myriad of points you've had to concede, mistakes made, apologies, justifications, rationalizations, etc..etc... *are the proof*.

Bridges burned, Earth salted... You're work is done here. Now please do the right thing, and close up shop.


----------



## grendel88

edwardsatc said:


> Compare these two pages (both from USAFrog) and see if you can see a problem:
> 
> True Sip pet frogs | FROG SUPPLY - USA Frog Wholesale
> 
> QUASAR (True Sip) pet frogs
> 
> Just I case they remove something here’s the text of each:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No mention of being designer in the second ad. So are these True Sips or Frankenfrogs … ???
> 
> I think this is what many of have feared ... mixed morph frogs being marketed as true morphs.


This is DFW taking sleazy to a whole new level. They are advertising exactly what I feared (passing off random mutt frog for a line that it resembles) and being rather blatant about it. DFW's justification is that they are not saying its that particular line but they are duping people by saying "people can't tell the difference anyway"

I know a Romex when I see one.


----------



## phender

Besides all that, they can't even get the fake morph right. A "True Sip" has a yellow crescent connecting both eyes going over the nose. Their fake true sip has no yellow on the head at all. They can't even make a good fake.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

That was my first thought too, but I don't know enough about them to know whether the yellow is always there.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Dendro Dave said:


> ,
> Now please do the right thing, and close up shop.


I doubt this will ever happen..and by no means am I throwing in the towel.
There are 1000`s of mixed morph frogs in this country, from these clowns and every pet store selling them. The people who buy their frogs don`t know a True Sip from a horses backside and they probably couldn`t give a s**t. 
Ever read their "reviews"? Has anyone ever mentioned thank you for the blood lines that I can trace?
All you get is how awesome and big they are. They show on a daily basis that no amount of deceit is beneath them.

Sooner or later Tricky Rick will have to answer to the higher power he swears by.
Dress for hot weather Rick because I know where you`re going


----------



## grendel88

phender said:


> Besides all that, they can't even get the fake morph right. A "True Sip" has a yellow crescent connecting both eyes going over the nose. Their fake true sip has no yellow on the head at all. They can't even make a good fake.


This is likely our only saving grace. People who are familiar with the morph will recognize an aberrant pattern. This, in turn will lead to the appropriate questions being asked. As soon as I saw that picture I knew it wasn't a True Sip just because the color gradient is completely different than those that I have and have seen.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

The question being how many people will pick up on this aberrant pattern?


----------



## Dendro Dave

Has anyone written underground reptiles yet to petition them to drop USAfrog?

Seemed to work with LLL, and you can hold LLL up as the example they should be following.... maybe the spirit of competition and comunity relations will move them to do the same as LLL


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Trying to rebrand themself again.....

Redirecting you to www.frogdudes.com | donotlink.com

You can run but you can't hide Ricky and sons.

Looks like their mutt/hybrid/franks frog garbage will be back soon, this time rebadged as 

American Rebel Tinctorius

Will Rick ever figure out that no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig.


----------



## Aldross

Just fleeing another sinking ship. Of course they will spin this to be about progress not hiding from a horrid reputation.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Thanks for the opportunity to bump this thread. Rather than address your off topic issues elsewhere, I'll discuss it here, where it is relevant.



dablock said:


> the Dartfrog Warehouse thread. Doug, I believe you're a regular contributor to this thread. I don't do any business with them nor do I condone their practices. Still, I can't see the purpose to a 48 page thread that exists just to let the "dendro Nazis" spew their hatred. You don't agree with Rick and that's fine to say so and explain the reasons for you beliefs. Do you really need to endlessly bash and hurl insults at the man? It's very childish and the moderators should have put a stop to it long ago.




YES

I

AM

And damn proud of it!

Your inability to see the purpose of this thread, is irrelevant. We've stated why many times. You don't like it, noted. 

Dendro nazis? Oh my!!! my favorite! Reductio ad Hitlerum/Goodwins Law.

When all else fails, compare those you disagree with to Nazis.

This made my day.


----------



## Scott

... and in case there is any question about it ...

The Moderators feel very strongly that this topic needs to stay at the forefront of our Hobby.

I'm really not sure why anyone would feel otherwise.

s


----------



## Igot99problems

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Thanks for the opportunity to bump this thread. Rather than address your off topic issues elsewhere, I'll discuss it here, where it is relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YES
> 
> I
> 
> AM
> 
> And damn proud of it!
> 
> Your inability to see the purpose of this thread, is irrelevant. We've stated why many times. You don't like it, noted.
> 
> Dendro nazis? Oh my!!! my favorite! Reductio ad Hitlerum/Goodwins Law.
> 
> When all else fails, compare those you disagree with to Nazis.
> 
> This made my day.


C'mon man the guy stated his opinion I think you should just let it go. Let this thread continue to be about the negatives of USA Frogs not other members on the board.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Igot99problems said:


> C'mon man the guy stated his opinion I think you should just let it go. Let this thread continue to be about the negatives of USA Frogs not other members on the board.


And I stated mine. However, his opinion turned into a classless personal attack.

Comparing those who contribute here to Nazis is unacceptable and needs to be addressed. dablock is attempting to disparage us and I'm calling him on it. Your objection is noted.


----------



## carola1155

*Ok, now that we've all apparently said our piece...we're gonna let this thread sit for a bit.

When it comes back, I expect everyone to move on.*


----------



## edwardsatc

usafrog.com website said:


> Note:
> It is extremely rare for an Auratus to breed with a Leucomelas. *Even so, you would know when they were getting amorous and be able to separate them LONG before any remote possibility of cross-breeding were to become possible.*
> 
> _Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved_.


Yes because a pair of frogs couldn't possibly mate without us knowing about it ...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> Yes because a pair of frogs couldn't possibly mate without us knowing about it ...


Especially when you have 10,000 (allegedly) frogs to manage day in and day out. Nothing would ever slip by.

BTW- Looks like they're rolling out the mutts again for the fourth of July. Nothing Screams 'Merica like a bunch of hybrid dart frogs for sale. Most of the preview pics are pretty fugly IMO.

Oh and now you get to pay more for what they refer to as "Premium Patterns"


----------



## edwardsatc

”usafrog.com website” said:


> American REBEL™ Tinctorius or ART™ Frogs are only available from USA Frog! They are selectively captive bred, cared for & raised only by us here in the U.S.A. *Each and every one is pure to their species & variety*. They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed). Always top quality, health, beauty, and strength!
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


IMO, a bold faced lie. Previously they have listed these very same frogs as mixed morph.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

USA Frog said:


> Some time ago we received a box of DENDROCARE supplement from the manufacturer. We do not sell any product we do not use. Thus, while we are testing the product, the manufacturer website also lists us a retailer. We have asked them to remove us a retailer until we can decide if we are going to sell the DENDROCARE product.


Hmmmmm, and I wonder if they just so happen to not find merit in Dendrocare, will they resort to the same libel and defamation that they leveled at Repashy products in their laughable and now FROGTRACTED study?

Sent a nice polite note to the gentlemen at Dendrocare making them aware of what USA frog is really about, their history of defaming hobby businesses and respected scientists, and encouraging them not to continue selling their product to USA Frog. There are plenty of respectable businesses in the US to acquire Dendrocare from anyway. I'm sure they wouldn't mind hearing the opinions of a few other hobbyists and ESPECIALLY, those well respected vendors who already sell dendrocare(you know who you are).

http://www.dendrocare.com/en/dendrocare-import-export-agent-company.html


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

USA Frog said:


> (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed). Always top quality, health, beauty, and strength!
> ART™ frogs are completely captive bred, completely harmless, and they have superior genetics (i.e., hybrid vigor) to many of the inbred frogs in the dart frog hobby today.


These are the kinds of mistakes you make when you've been talking out of your mouth for so long. Contradicting yourself within the same paragraph...

So your frogs are not hybrids, yet display hybrid vigor? 

Pic below directly as linked from their own website.


----------



## edwardsatc

Just a heads up for folks posting here, Rick has hidden this deep in the bowels of his convoluted websites:




usafrogs.com website said:


> Intellectual Property
> All content appearing on this Web site is the property of:
> USA Frog Supply
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.
> 
> *As a user, you are authorized only to view, copy, print, and distribute documents on this Web site so long as (1) the document is used for informational purposes only, and (2) any copy of the document (or portion thereof) includes the following copyright notice: Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.*
> 
> All brand, product, service, and process names appearing on this Web site are trademarks of their respective holders. Reference to or use of a product, service, or process does not imply recommendation, approval, affiliation, or sponsorship of that product, service, or process by USA Frog Supply. Nothing contained herein shall be construed as conferring by implication, estoppel, or otherwise any license or right under any patent, copyright, trademark, or other intellectual property right of USA Frog Supply or any third party, except as expressly granted herein.
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Yeah.....

Thats good for a laugh, especially from someone like Rick who is so versed in theft of intellectual property himself.


----------



## edwardsatc

More laughs ... 

[quote="usafrog.com website]Hello and Welcome to USA Frog!"

We are the leader in colorful pet frogs! How so? We have more frogs and varieties than anyone, we breed many hundreds of pairs, and are generations ahead in selective breeding for top quality new varieties!

If you like the genetically advanced new colors and varieties produced by dissimilar parent stock, or the selectively bred frog for superior coloration and overall appeal, we are out front and have what you need or want. We have first generations of many combinations. Each one is hardy and perfectly strong, big, and bold. They ALL make perfect pets!

By the way, just in case you see an “ugly duckling" frog we might have available, remember it too has dominant (or recessive) traits useful for breeding to desired goals. Those traits are not always apparent, but we know what they are and can help you arrive at your new variety. Thus, while every frog might not be the desired end goal in appearance as is, it most certainly can be a useful building block for achieving ones breeding goals.

Also, being at least one generation ahead, every experienced frog breeder knows time is a consideration. If you are a breeder, we can help you skip generations and years of frog breeding to help you craft your end goals. All this variation possibility and NOT ONE frog is taken from the wild rain forest! PERFECT, and "made" in the USA!

As always, each and every frog we sell comes with a complete money-back satisfaction guarantee nobody else offers. We guarantee they are top quality, health, and strength with perfect conformation too. You also get our private breeder notes to help you have fun breeding pet frogs and producing the frog offspring you seek. Very soon we will also offer a store for you to sell your colorful frogs with complete anonymity if you wish.

Enjoy and welcome to the American Dart Frog breeding hobby destined to rival the koi.

Team USA Frog 

Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.

[/quote]


----------



## edwardsatc

More laughs ... 

[quote="usafrog.com website]Hello and Welcome to USA Frog!"

We are the leader in colorful pet frogs! How so? We have more frogs and varieties than anyone, we breed many hundreds of pairs, and are generations ahead in selective breeding for top quality new varieties!

If you like the genetically advanced new colors and varieties produced by dissimilar parent stock, or the selectively bred frog for superior coloration and overall appeal, we are out front and have what you need or want. We have first generations of many combinations. Each one is hardy and perfectly strong, big, and bold. They ALL make perfect pets!

By the way, just in case you see an “ugly duckling" frog we might have available, remember it too has dominant (or recessive) traits useful for breeding to desired goals. Those traits are not always apparent, but we know what they are and can help you arrive at your new variety. Thus, while every frog might not be the desired end goal in appearance as is, it most certainly can be a useful building block for achieving ones breeding goals.

Also, being at least one generation ahead, every experienced frog breeder knows time is a consideration. If you are a breeder, we can help you skip generations and years of frog breeding to help you craft your end goals. All this variation possibility and NOT ONE frog is taken from the wild rain forest! PERFECT, and "made" in the USA!

As always, each and every frog we sell comes with a complete money-back satisfaction guarantee nobody else offers. We guarantee they are top quality, health, and strength with perfect conformation too. You also get our private breeder notes to help you have fun breeding pet frogs and producing the frog offspring you seek. Very soon we will also offer a store for you to sell your colorful frogs with complete anonymity if you wish.

Enjoy and welcome to the American Dart Frog breeding hobby destined to rival the koi.

Team USA Frog

Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.[/quote]


----------



## Boondoggle

edwardsatc said:


> More laughs ...


Two questions:

1. Since when is a dominant breeding trait not apparent? 

2. Does anyone remember when Rick addressed the community and said they were going through a re-org and would no longer be offering frogs of mixed lineage at USAfrogs? 

Not really that long ago.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Boondoggle said:


> 2. Does anyone remember when Rick addressed the community and said they were going through a re-org and would no longer be offering frogs of mixed lineage at USAfrogs?


Since when would anyone think Rick is a man of his word?

I took that statement to mean:

" We got our asses handed to us again by hobbyists. Here is some smoke blown up your rear to take the heat off of us while we retreat with our tails between our legs and can try to recover."


----------



## Scott

If this is Rick - you are in violation of Dendroboard rules.

This is from the FAQ:



> The individual does not already have an existing account with DB and/or has not received an invitation to activate any account in the past by DB.
> The individual has not attempted to register an account with DB.
> The individual has not received a Termination of Account Notice or has had an account terminated in the past for any reason.
> The individual has not received a Temporary Ban Notice or has had an account temporarily banned in the past for any reason


If you wish to have your account re-activated - please reach out to a Moderator.

Scott MacDonald
DB Moderator



DendroDad said:


> Hi Guys! Rick Wascher here.


----------



## Scott

What was your prior account?

We'll be happy to reinstate it - but at the moment you're breaking the rules here.

s


DendroDad said:


> The quickest way to get rid of the truth is to ban it. I thought so.


----------



## Scott

That's not going to happen either.

He is quite welcome to play by the rules here - everyone else has to.

s


toostrange said:


> I'm sure that's what he is aiming for to have this thread locked or shut down.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Scott said:


> That's not going to happen either.
> 
> He is quite welcome to play by the rules here - everyone else has to.
> 
> s


I'd love to see him try to engage us here. There are almost 90 pages of documented lies, half truths, misinformation, unfounded claims, etc. that I would love to see him try to address.


----------



## Scott

I'm sure he's reading. He's welcome to let us know he'd like his account re-activated.

s


ZookeeperDoug said:


> I'd love to see him try to engage us here. There are almost 90 pages of documented lies, half truths, misinformation, unfounded claims, etc. that I would love to see him try to address.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Scott said:


> What was your prior account?
> 
> s


Rick's prior account was *FrogZoo*

Dillion's prior account was *Dillion Wascher*


----------



## MasterOogway

Doug to save the day!


----------



## Scott

There you go Rick - if you want to have your say - that's how you go about it.

You need to let us know to re-activate your account.

s


ZookeeperDoug said:


> Rick's prior account was *FrogZoo*
> 
> Dillion's prior account was *Dillion Wascher*


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Could it be someone trolling?

I find it really hard to believe Rick would want to talk here.


----------



## Aldross

Not so sure about that buddy. Keep in mind we are talking about the most arrogant man any of us know


----------



## Scott

It wasn't.

That's all I'll say.

s



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Could it be someone trolling?
> 
> I find it really hard to believe Rick would want to talk here.


----------



## Scott

Rick has asked to be reactivated - so he is going to be reactivated.

Here is your warning - this is meant for EVERYONE.

Facts only.

Emotion has no business in a factual discussion.

Anyone who posts a Meme is gone for at least a day. Period. 

This goes for everyone. This thread isn't going anywhere. 

Keep it clean folks. Please.

Thank you.

Dendroboard Moderators


----------



## edwardsatc

I would certainly like to hear what Ricky has to say.

But, as I sit here waiting for "the truth", something tells me it going to be a long wait ...


----------



## Boondoggle

Welcome back to the forum, Rick. 

I look forward to a civil and frank discussion on the topic. Allow me to suggest that if everyone here, you and I included, check our egos at the door and proofread our comments for untruths, half-truths, and debate trickery, then we have an real opportunity for a factual discussion. There have been a lot of shots at you over the preceding pages, but believe me when I say the driving force of most of those criticisms has been the regard for the current state and future of the hobby. 

With that in mind, many people here have many questions for you. I'll start with an easy one. If memory serves, you stated that frogs from mixed locales would no longer be sold by USdartfrogs, and intimated that there would be yet another site that would specialize in mixed locale frogs. Is that still your plan? I appears not to be from an outsiders perspective. 

Thanks,
Jeremy


----------



## allegedhuman

*From USA Frog Website; “Each and every one is pure to their species & variety (many new ones). They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed)”* This quote is at top prominently on the Art Frogs page.

My question is why continue to use incorrect definitions for rather key and specific words, including “hybrid” and “cross bred” (to name a few simple ones,to get more technical why redefine the filial naming system? F1, F2 is already a well-established system that is already well defined to mean very specific implication so why try to re-define or act like this is a new design for a novel system created originally on your breeding page but besides those later points…let’s start with just two words)?

You maintain none of the frogs are hybrid because they reproduce. That is a faulty argument because a hybrid is not defined by being able to reproduce or not. 

Hybrid-noun 
From dictionary.com
“the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, especially as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics”

From Merriam Webster
“ an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera”

The 1st definition seems like it was made specifically to described Designer/art frogs! Different varieties bred by humans for specific characteristics? 

Furthermore a cross-breed animal is not a cross of two different species like a tinc and a leuc as described in the USA Frog quote above, but it is exactly what the word says when broken apart. It is a cross between two different breeds. In frogs different breeds would be analogous to what are called varieties. 

I think everyone can relate to what a cross-bred dog is. It is something that is a mix of two different dog breeds, but they are clearly still the same species. You said you wanted an athletic, purebred Labrador of a certain color when you were dog shopping. 

The frog community is like you when you were looking for a dog. You knew you wanted a purebred pet with a very specific lineage and not a “looks-alike-enough retriever” that genetically is a mix of who-knows-what . The frog community wants frogs that are what they are said to be and reflect the important history and uniqueness of a certain frog variety, just like you did when you wanted a dog that was exactly what the breed is well known for based on the breed history. To lose the unique special characteristics and history of either Labs or cobalt tincts would be terrible. Breeding something that LOOKS similar cannot replace or restore the original.

Because Labradoodle is a cross-bred dog (still same species) and a wolf-hybrid is an interspecies hybrid (two different species) but is fertile and can breed.These two examples highlight the problem with the description quoted from the Art frogs page. 

Why continue using these words incorrectly despite numerous instances pointing out why the use of those words are deceptive and wrong? It is rather frustrating to keep seeing scientific terms persistently used to describe the opposite of what they really mean, especially since this is by far not the first time this has been mentioned in this thread.


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## Ed

> From USA Frog Website; “Each and every one is pure to their species & variety (many new ones). They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed)”


To build on the topic started by allegedhuman. 

Rick, 

The definition of species has moved far past the definition of being unable to reproduce as it has not held up to scrutiny. As an example, the savannah cat is the result of a cross between a serval and a domestic cat and the offspring are able to reproduce. Now in no way can this then be argued that a savannah and a domestic cat are of the same species. These two species are not even in the same genus ( Felis catus × Leptailurus serval), so it even further puts to rest the idea that infertility between two animals is sufficient proof that they are not the same species and the converse if they and their offspring can reproduce they must be the same species. As we can see it does not support that argument. There are many many different examples of this in the literature and its why the definition you utilize hasn't been considered sufficient for decades. It also has been disregarded on Wikipedia so there really isn't anything you can claim to support your position. 

So if you have bred different populations (commonly called morphs in the hobby) together then you have created hybrids. 
In the vast majority of these frogs they have not exchanged DNA in the wild in thousands of years so you can't claim that they are from populations that are naturally exchanging genes. In fact the crossing of these morphs can have negative fitness results over time. There is a problem when you hybridize different populations together. This is known as outbreeding depression and it can take up to 5 generations to manifest itself. Now some of the documented issues such as smaller size at metamorphosis of F2-F5 animals can be mitigated by husbandry issues, it is still a negative factor that can create further issues down the line. This means that people need to consider any claims on benefit in light of the literature. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## FrogZoo

On the open and frank discussion, sounds good. Please understand, a hobby is what the members make of it. If the members want to exclude some then they are not part of the hobby by exclusion, so when then should the excluded be concerned with satisfying the very hobby that excluded them. 

I am open to any questions provided I too get to ask some. 

You ask a question and I will fully answer it, if and only if, I too can ask a question and get it fully answered. Do me a favor though, a diatribe on something unrelated is not an answer, and wanting to "catch me in lie" is not worth your trouble. (For example, the "we won't sell mixes" was *never* we won't. I was careful to say "we have no present intent." No present itent does not speak to the future. Also, we always said we don't cross-breed. We don't and never have. We always stay within species. 

The hobby once said that mixed variety offspring would be weak, sickly and never be able to reproduce. I have the e-mails from many. We proved that weak sickly position to be wrong about 35 times over. Now, many in the hobby will say "we never took that position". Seriously? So let's stay away from the he said she said and go forward. 

On the times you found stuff wrong on our site and said it was a lie, think of the number of typos. Did I want them there? Really. NO, the changes we made to the site were often and extensive at times, even 180 degrees. That's marketing...finding out what works. Whenever you makes changes like that there are a lot of tiny messes and terminology to clean up. For example, we once had the banded leuc in the mixed frog section for over a week. It was an oversight I assure you.


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## MasterOogway

So marketing involves trashing, on your business website, many of the people who have contributed so incredibly much to the hobby and the science behind it? Listen mate, I have no issues with what you, personally, believe to be the right way to breed frogs. I do have an issue with you launching a libelious crusade against folk like Dr. Lotters, Allen Repashy, and so on, on your business website. You can dislike and disagree with them as much as you want, but to put it publicly on your website and to libel them that way is completely uncalled for. Most of us here realize you are not going to change the way you run DFW. That's your prerogative, it's a private business. We don't have to agree with it, but we certainly don't have to support it. In the confines of a forum, it's fine to express your dislike or distaste for something, but to advertise it on a business website like it's truth is shameful and wrong. Especially when you are the outlier here in respect to your views on hybridizing frogs, and mixed morph frankenfrogs. No one here agrees with you on that. No one in the professional world of biology agrees with you on your definitions of hybrid, filial generations, etc. Why do you insist on trying to create your own definitions of these words and then accuse everyone else of being wrong and naive? You are not a scientist. You have no scientific training or background. Many of us here, as a point of fact, are scientists, and have significant training and experience in this field. When all of us are telling you that you have it wrong, does that not tell you something???


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## FrogZoo

Are you a business person? On Repashy, the Calcium Plus has a high waste fraction. If you raised a lot of frogs you would know that. Our customers said our fly media outperformed Repashy's and we said that. That is not trashing Alan Repashy. On Lotters, he did say keeping different varieties in the same enclosure is just fine, but be sure the different species don't interbreed. Are you okay with that?

We know you don't like the frogs we breed. On that subject, who knows more about the mixed frogs, you or us? Is the new River, Villa Nova, and Sippaliwini Savannah a mixed frog? Yes, or no will do, but you probably won't answer, but we can. Now who has fooled who?


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## MasterOogway

FrogZoo said:


> Are you a business person? On Repashy, the Calcium Plus has a high waste fraction. ?


Enlighten me then on 'high waste fraction' please. If you're referring to how it's recommended to not re-use the dust after a single dusting, that is sound advice for *any* vitamin supplement, not just Repashy. If this is not the case, then please, tell us what you mean.


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## Scott

Just a reminder. This is likely the most scrutinized thread we have on DB, and at this moment it is going to get at least twice, and probably three times the attention it normally gets.

No emotion. Facts.

We're watching.

DB Moderators


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## FrogZoo

Sure. The amount you dust is used to near a 100% is the goal. A LOT of Respashy Calcium Plus particles are too big to stick, and they get thrown away and not used. That is a high waste fraction. The waste is a lot and fractionally compared to the total it is high. If you had the number of frogs we have, a high waste fraction is too much money in the trash. Herptavite is finer. The finer powder sticks better nearly to 100%. Much better than Calcium plus. Using the right proportions of pink and blue label Herptavite gives great results too.


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## FrogZoo

tarantulaguy you did not answer my question:
On Lotters, he did say keeping different varieties in the same enclosure is just fine, but be sure the different species don't interbreed. Are you okay with that?


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## MasterOogway

First, show me the direct quote that you are referring to where he says this. I have the book, but want to know which one you are referencing. I am ok with mixed species tanks, provided that the keeper is experienced, and has a few years of husbandry under their belts. I am decidedly *not* ok with breeding between species, or morphs. I'm less ok with mixed morph tanks because generally people tend to overcrowd those tanks. In mixed species tanks those species should ideally occupy different ecological niches, so the competition, and subsequent stress resulting from competition, will be much less, such as keeping some Ranitomeya with Ameerega species. All this goes without saying that if you are not an experienced keeper you should never attempt such things. Now, I've answered your question, please return the consideration and answer mine regarding "waste" with Repashy.


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## MasterOogway

FrogZoo said:


> Sure. The amount you dust is used to near a 100% is the goal. A LOT of Respashy Calcium Plus particles are too big to stick, and they get thrown away and not used. That is a high waste fraction. The waste is a lot and fractionally compared to the total it is high. If you had the number of frogs we have, a high waste fraction is too much money in the trash. Herptavite is finer. The finer powder sticks better nearly to 100%. Much better than Calcium plus. Using the right proportions of pink and blue label Herptavite gives great results too.


This popped up between posts. What are you basing this on? I have no issues with waste with Repashy; I use herptivite and rep-cal for other reptiles that don't need as 'intense' a vitamin powder. Have you looked at these powders under a microscope to compare particle sizes?


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## Ed

FrogZoo said:


> The finer powder sticks better nearly to 100%. Much better than Calcium plus. Using the right proportions of pink and blue label Herptavite gives great results too.


Actually while it may appear that "Herptivite" is fine, it isn't as it does not supply a usable source of vitamin A for the frogs. There is abundant data in the literature that a diet that tries to supply vitamin A in the form of beta carotene actually produces frogs that are deficient in vitamin A. This may not be apparent in the metamorphs or frogs under a year in age as they may be able to get by until then using stored vitamin A reserves in the liver but once those sources are depleted the frog is then at greater risk of disease, poor growth, squamous metaplasia, and death. This is well established in the peer reviewed captive anuran literature so the claims about it working fine has to be viewed with a skeptical eye. 

How are you determining that the frogs are not suffering from vitamin A insufficiencies at any stage in their life? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

FrogZoo said:


> Also, we always said we don't cross-breed. We don't and never have. We always stay within species.


Did you ignore the data that indicates that even crosses between different populations are still considered hybrids? Are you attempting to skip over that issue as you then ask to move forward? 



FrogZoo said:


> The hobby once said that mixed variety offspring would be weak, sickly and never be able to reproduce. I have the e-mails from many. We proved that weak sickly position to be wrong about 35 times over. Now, many in the hobby will say "we never took that position". Seriously? So let's stay away from the he said she said and go forward.


Okay in a roundabout way you have admitted to hybridizing frogs. If your going to claim that they aren't hybrids I'm going to ask for proof that supports your definition, fair warning. 

So have you ever looked up the issues with outbreeding depression? You are aware that it may not occur in the initial crosses? You may want to familiarize yourself with the potential risks before making the claim that you only robust frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Boondoggle

FrogZoo said:


> The hobby once said that mixed variety offspring would be weak, sickly and never be able to reproduce. I have the e-mails from many. We proved that weak sickly position to be wrong about 35 times over. Now, many in the hobby will say "we never took that position". Seriously? So let's stay away from the he said she said and go forward.


I'm going to try to stay out of this for the most part as I think too many questions muddy the waters, but I do have to speak up here. Rick, you are mistaken. I don't know who "the hobby" is, but I've been playing with dart frogs for almost 10 years and animal genetics for about 25 years. I've met with people with like interests about as frequently as I could and wasted an unspeakable amount of time on these message boards. I don't remember anyone ever saying that the first generation offspring of mixed locale, or even mixed species frogs, would be weak and sickly. I don't know who told you that, but that's not a view held by "the hobby". 

If you need proof, remember, you're absolutely *not the first person to breed frogs without regard to species or locality*. Every so often another new breeder comes along that thinks they've reinvented the wheel. As you've pointed out I believe, some locales that were previously thought to be legit, turned out to be cross-breeds (that is, an animal or plant produced by mating or hybridizing two different species, breeds, or varieties). We know those animals were not known for being especially weak or sickly. 

So I know you feel that one was a feather in your cap but you're going to have to let that one go. I'm telling you, no one who told you that the offspring of two disparate frogs would be sickly was representing the beliefs of "the hobby" and for you to make such an assertion just makes it seem like you are very disconnected from experienced knowledgeable frog keepers. The objection that "the hobby" has to mixing frogs from locales has nothing to do with the health of the offspring. 

It occurs to me now that you may be referring to outbreeding depression. If that's the case I'd appreciate you saying so. The literature supports the existence of the phenomenon, but it's really something "the hobby" is just beginning to recognize. Your typical hobbyist has no first hand experience with it because they've avoided mixing locales for all the other valid reasons that you seem to ignore.


EDIT - Also, in case you missed my one question, If memory serves you stated that frogs from mixed locales would no longer be sold by USdartfrogs, and intimated that there would be yet another site that would specialize in mixed locale frogs. Is that still your plan?


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## FrogZoo

We add vitamin A, but Repashy Cal Plus still doe not stick and a lot is thrown away. The same cannot be said for Herptavite. Who's vitamin A do we use? Repashy.


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## FrogZoo

We don't mix species. The names for the frogs are not names of species. It is a fact, ALL tinctorius are tinctorius and that's it. All auratus are auratus and that's it. All Leucomelas are leucomeals and that's is. 

The names patricia and powder grey... are generic names, and have absolutely no official significance. Everybody knows that and still people want those names to be species names, and overuse the term in hopes people bite. 

I said we don't mix species, and yet there it is you saying we do, as if the varieties, etc. are species which they are not. This is going nowhere. The agenda is clear. Keep hammering the untruth to make it true.

Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius.


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## epiphytes etc.

FrogZoo said:


> Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius.


Yes, but why would you when those morphs already exist? Whom would it benefit?


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## FrogZoo

Seriously? 
This may be my last post.

*Who benefits from the captive bred production of an uncommon dart frog identical to one found in the wild?* 

*My side:*
The world through conservation. Using available healthy, top condition, captive bred resources to produce something identical to what is harvested from the wild that may have a wild disease, etc., just make good sense. The NUMBER 1 threat to tinctorius is the illegal pet trade. See, IUCN.org and search tinctorius as a keyword.

*Your side:*
Assuming for your sake there is no reason to mix tincs to produce the three (3) ( New river, Villa Nova, True Sip), and to be fair another four (4) we have not shown yet, that leaves 3+4=7 from about 35. That is 28 first level combinations "already exist" then why go the jungle for more. 

Add to that, any tinctorius is just a color morph of the species, the answer becomes breed for cool frogs to satisfy the pet trade and have fun doing it. 

Okay, now everbody pile on.


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## Boondoggle

FrogZoo said:


> We don't mix species. The names for the frogs are not names of species. It is a fact, ALL tinctorius are tinctorius and that's it. All auratus are auratus and that's it. All Leucomelas are leucomeals and that's is.
> 
> The names patricia and powder grey... are generic names, and have absolutely no official significance. Everybody knows that and still people want those names to be species names, and overuse the term in hopes people bite.
> 
> I said we don't mix species, and yet there it is you saying we do, as if the varieties, etc. are species which they are not. This is going nowhere. The agenda is clear. Keep hammering the untruth to make it true.
> 
> Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius.


I'm not sure if your defensiveness is in reference to my use of the word "species", but if so I'd appreciate it if you read it again. If it's in reference to what Ed said, please read his post again. I can't see where anyone here is claiming you are crossing species. So let's just get this out in the open so you don't have to defend against it anymore.

*Rick is not advocating crossing species.*

There, that's settled. Your rabid defense of that point seems to have been distracting you from a number of other valid concerns. Please understand that the reason that people often say "species or varieties" is because the underlying reasons for or against them are the same. The reasons hybrids are bad for the hobby are the same reasons that crossbred frogs are bad for the hobby. All the reason you use to defend crossing locale-specific frogs can be used to defend hybrids. It's the same defense which makes me wonder why you draw the line where you do.

Species are designations determined by humans based on their best current understanding of the genetics and origin of an animal. Species change over the years as the scientific community comes to a better understanding of the animal, but given the same data some scientists are lumpers and some are splitters. Sometimes the lumpers get their way, sometimes the splitters. 

Locale or specific importation lot, on the other hand should not change. Which is why many people, including the author, feel that you are misrepresenting Lotters work out of context. Yes a tinc is a tinc as far as taxonomy is concerned, absolutely. Patricia or Powder Blue may not mean anything in that sense but are absolutely essential if you are interested in preserving the genetics of the animal as much as possible. I believe Dr. Lotter said it best that to disrespect that was "disgusting".

It's like saying "a sedan is a sedan". From the point of view of the DMV that may be absolutely true. From the point of the average consumer it certainly is not. Now here you are slapping Honda fenders and Maserati doors on a Ford Festiva and calling it a new car. Normally the buying public could care less about what kind of Frankencar you're selling, except they're not going to be making sedans pretty soon and your dream is to flood the market. 

Do you see why your business model has met with resistance? 

Oh hey also, If memory serves you stated that frogs from mixed locales would no longer be sold by USdartfrogs, and intimated that there would be yet another site that would specialize in mixed locale frogs. Is that still your plan?


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## Celtic Aaron

FrogZoo said:


> We don't mix species. The names for the frogs are not names of species. It is a fact, ALL tinctorius are tinctorius and that's it. All auratus are auratus and that's it. All Leucomelas are leucomeals and that's is.
> 
> The names patricia and powder grey... are generic names, and have absolutely no official significance. Everybody knows that and still people want those names to be species names, and overuse the term in hopes people bite.
> 
> I said we don't mix species, and yet there it is you saying we do, as if the varieties, etc. are species which they are not. This is going nowhere. The agenda is clear. Keep hammering the untruth to make it true.
> 
> Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius.



So the problem here seems to be definitions. I cannot follow this discussion when we are using two different definitions for cross breeding. Please help me to clear this up and understand. According to Ed and others in the scientific community, "cross breeding" does not only occur when you mix "species," but also when you mix "morphs, locales," or whatever you call it. Either way, the intent of the discussion seems to be about cross breeding and not necessarily mixing only "species." Therefore, from what I understand, you are cross breeding if you mate an Azureus with a Patricia even if they are both of the same species (tinctorius) and even if they create offspring that can reproduce. Yes? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brendan0923

FrogZoo said:


> We don't mix species. The names for the frogs are not names of species. It is a fact, ALL tinctorius are tinctorius and that's it. All auratus are auratus and that's it. All Leucomelas are leucomeals and that's is.
> 
> The names patricia and powder grey... are generic names, and have absolutely no official significance. Everybody knows that and still people want those names to be species names, and overuse the term in hopes people bite.
> 
> I said we don't mix species, and yet there it is you saying we do, as if the varieties, etc. are species which they are not. This is going nowhere. The agenda is clear. Keep hammering the untruth to make it true.
> 
> Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius.


However in the wild these different morphs of frogs have been split up into seperate populations that have evolved different traits and characteristics overtime. Many species of poison dart frogs rarely come into contact with other morphs of their species. For example, take Oophaga pumilio. The different morphs or color varieties are a result of thousands of years of geographic isolation. While they may be the same species, they have actually evolved to be quite different. If they hybridize in the wild, then so be it. Natural selection is at work. "Cross-breeding," "hybridizing," whatever we want to call it, does not seem to be as simple as "a tinctorius is a tinctorius," at least to my knowledge.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Enlightened Rogue

Rick, what exactly did you expect to accomplish by re-activating your account here?

Seriously, I`m not being a smart ass just wondering.
The people here are very angry and frustrated over the things you`ve said and done.
Yes, we`ve hammered you pretty good over the last few years, but you need to understand why.
It must be wonderful working with your children the way you do. 

I hope keeping an open line of communication will fix this between us


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## Ed

FrogZoo said:


> The finer powder sticks better nearly to 100%. Much better than Calcium plus. Using the right proportions of pink and blue label Herptavite gives great results too.





FrogZoo said:


> We add vitamin A, but Repashy Cal Plus still doe not stick and a lot is thrown away. The same cannot be said for Herptavite. Who's vitamin A do we use? Repashy.


Given the importance of preformed vitamin A in the diet of the frogs do you see the problem between these two statements? In the first statement, your recommendation would be improper for a person who didn't know any better as it would reduce the health of the frogs. Using the Blue and Pink label only by itself is a terrible recommendation which is what you are saying in the first quote. 

With respect to your usage of preformed vitamin A, how are you ensuring the frogs get the proper dosage of vitamin A? Are you mixing it into the Rep-Cal/Herptivite mix, with the Rep-Cal or by itself? I'm curious as the amount of vitamin A in the diet is critical. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

Rick,




FrogZoo said:


> We don't mix species. The names for the frogs are not names of species. It is a fact, ALL tinctorius are tinctorius and that's it. All auratus are auratus and that's it. All Leucomelas are leucomeals and that's is.
> 
> The names patricia and powder grey... are generic names, and have absolutely no official significance. Everybody knows that and still people want those names to be species names, and overuse the term in hopes people bite.
> 
> I said we don't mix species, and yet there it is you saying we do, as if the varieties, etc. are species which they are not. This is going nowhere. The agenda is clear. Keep hammering the untruth to make it true.
> 
> Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius.


What evidence do you have that hybrids are only between different species? I gave you fair warning that if you made that statement I was going to challenge it. Your assertion does not follow common and/or scientific consensus on what constitutes a hybrid. As an example of the common definition see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology) 



> In biology a hybrid also known as cross breed is the mixing, through sexual reproduction, of *two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species or genera*.


The above quote was taken from the wikipedia link. 

I'm pretty amazed that you totally ignored my questions and comments in this regard. The "generic names" you reference are actually references to specific populations of frogs that have not shared genes in thousands of years. Your position that it is fine to stay within a species and mix these disparate populations can be a problem. There is in fact a risk of outbreeding depression when breeding frogs together from separate locations even when you stay within a species. This is why I asked you if you had researched outbreeding depression or now. If you read Sagvik, J., Uller, T., & Olsson, M. (2005). Outbreeding depression in the common frog, Rana temporaria. Conservation Genetics, 6(2), 205-211. accessed from http://www.environmental-expert.com/Files\6063\articles\5372\LV68M29432114864.pdf you could see some of the problems that can arise from crossing frogs from the same species from different populations. 
Outbreeding depression is considered a risk for any attempts to perpetuate a species for the long-term in captivity that the suggestions are to only do it when there is no other option see Edmands, S. (2007). Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management. Molecular Ecology, 16(3), 463-475. 
Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management - EDMANDS - 2006 - Molecular Ecology - Wiley Online Library

I also have to note that even though the frogs may look the same, it does not mean that it is from the same population. Contrary to your claims, captive breeding in and of itself does not reduce demand for wild collected frogs. In fact it generally does the exact opposite. If you are interested ask for the references on that topic and I'll be happy to direct you to the information that shows that captive breeding in and of itself does not contribute to protecting a species. Sadly it was an issue that institutions like zoos learned almost too late. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

I have a request for those following the thread. Can we avoid the "dog pile on the rabbit" effect? If a few people take each topic I think we can avoid having questions and dialogs from being missed in the discussion. When there are a whole bunch of posts immediately following a topic it is easy for points to be missed either deliberately or accidentally. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Encyclia

I have never contributed to this thread and am really just trying to understand what is being said relative to what I was taught in my biology classes, lo, these many years ago 

If I am understanding your argument correctly, FrogZoo, it is that taking frogs from different locales/varieties/groupings of genes (which is what we are really talking about here) and producing offspring from them that are similar in appearance to other locales is the same as what has gone on to produce genetic differences in those locales in the wild. This might be true if the color of the animals was an indicator of the other genes that are being exchanged in an artificial mating. In the wild, color is just one of numerous characteristics that are coded in the genes of these frogs. There are also lots of genes that have to do with the fitness of the animal. These are all be selected for in a population at large. In a captive environment, when you are selecting for a specific color pattern when you are selecting future breeding adults (yes, and I know you are also looking for healthy appearance, as well), I don't think anyone can predict how you are impacting things like resistance to disease or the ability to live on a primarily fruit fly diet, for instance. You can't see these things and the problems may take generations to show up.

My concern is that, in the production of cross-breeds between locales/varieties/bundles of genes, desirable phenotype is being used as a proxy for genotype. Just because a frog is the right color green you are looking for in a cross does not mean that it is a frog that will pass on long-term healthy genotype to its offspring.

Thanks for taking the time to read the information in this thread, FrogZoo. I know I have been learning a lot from this discussion. Thanks, also, to those of you trying hard to keep things civil.


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## Enlightened Rogue

Honestly Rick, you`re way out of your league here.

You can`t make a statement here today and then totally take it back tomorrow like you`re used to doing.

If you`re going to debate some of these people here I can tell you you`re in for a rough ride


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## faspencer

This might totally be off topic but to me this seems to be the issue. I have a B.S. in biology and know what makes a species and what doesn't, mainly because my undergrad research was based on proving one species of fish was actually two completely different species. It is like dog breeds. All dogs are Canis l_upus familiaris_ which are the same species. However there are different breeds that have specific genetic lines that give them certain characteristics that are desirable. If you cross two breeds you get a mutt and no matter what it looks like and no matter how hard you try, it will never be or produce a pure bred animal. Yes mutts are healthier but when it comes down to it, if you want a golden retriever, you want a gold retriever, not something that closely resembles it based on crossbreeding of different breeds. I feel like that is the same issue here. If i want a local morph, I want that morph and the integrity of the genes of that local morph to be maintained. I don't want a mixture of different traits that resemble it, I want the real deal. And in all actually if you put enough money and research into these different isolated morphs you can probably prove them to be different species in the long run because chances are more than just the color has changed. That is usually the first indication of allopatric speciation. That is just my opinion on this subject.


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## edwardsatc

I think Rick has returned to responding via comments on his website.

"... OFFICIAL scientific record that governs the world." 

Really Rick? This statement only highlights your ignorance of the field of taxonomy. 1)While there are organizations which provide guidance, there is no such *governing* organization. 2) Taxonomists represent an often widely divided community (e.g. lumpers and splitters) who use a wide variety of different analytical methods (cladistics, phylogenetics, morphology, behavior, genetics, etc) which often produce widely varying results and conclusiuons. 






usafrog.com website said:


> We are rolling FrogSupply.com back into this site. Way too many people were confused by our marketing experiment so all of the great frogs we offer will be available here, one roof, one site, best prices, top quality always! The change will be made by close of business today! We apologize for the inconvenience.
> 
> Team USA Frog
> 
> P.S. *As always, these frogs are OFFICIALLY categorized by species alone in the context of living things and the OFFICIAL scientific record that gorvens the world.* Still, recently we learned first hand that some people want to make the OFFICIAL species classification arbitrary to the point whatever you believe is true. (Absolute proof to follow). Those people who choose to let everyone decide what is true, against what actually is, turn the truth into a lie.
> 
> OFFICIALLY, the names of these frogs such as Patricia, Azureus, Powder Grey, and ALL of the ones we use, are given names used simply to tell them apart by color and pattern. For example, a powder grey and powder blue are exactly the same frog, but for their leg colors. Also, OFFICIALLY spekaing, the Azureus is EXACTLTY the same frog as the Yelloback, oyapok, Powder Grey/Blue, but for the color of the skin.
> 
> *Anyone who tells you differenty or tries to convince you the name of a variety is official either: (1) doe not know the truth, or (2) knows the truth and wants to deceive you using "mumbo jumbo". In essence and fact, they want to create and be a deceptive BOONDOGGLE of no value whatsoever other than to intentionally and purposefully confuse you to advance their own agenda. (Proof to follow). We wish we could apologize for the deceit of others when it comes to pet frogs, and it is sad knowing they like the confusion, but we will remain steadfast and provide the best frogs at the best prices and let the lawyers sort it out. ("Boondoggle" means a wasteful project usually paid for with unknowing public support.)
> *
> The fact remains, we are the market leader in colorful pet frogs! How so? We have more frogs and varieties than anyone, we breed many hundreds of pairs, and are generations ahead in selective breeding for top quality new varieties, and we are the ONLY one to offer ALL AMERICAN pet dart frogs as we have categorised!
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


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## edwardsatc

Rick, please explain the highlighted text taken directly from your website. To be frank, it appears to be a deliberate false statement (lie). Are these frogs mixed morph (variety) or are they not?



usafrog.com website said:


> American REBEL™ Tinctorius or ART™ Frogs are only available from USA Frog! They are selectively captive bred, cared for & raised only by us here in the U.S.A. Each and every one is pure to their species *& variety* (many new ones). They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed). Always top quality, health, beauty, and strength!
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


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## brendan0923

Again, there is more that distinguishes morphs than just color and pattern. They have not been exchanging genetic information for thousands of years. It takes no more than a quick Google search to realize this. Look at the Wikipedia page for Oophaga pumilio. Prime example of what we just discussed. It is not as simple as a tinc is a tinc is a tinc. An Azureus is certainly not EXACTLY the same as a dwarf cobalt. For another example, look at domesticated dogs. All the same species? Yup. Yet, there is still a huge difference between a great dane and a wiener dog. This is not "mumbo jumbo," it is science. While I'm no scientist by any stretch of the imagination (c'mon, I'm still in highschool), it's not hard to find out that there is more to these morphs than just color and pattern. 

Regardless, I hope we can continue to have a good discussion on this thread. I enjoy debating and learning, so let's keep the conversation going! ☺

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Ed

Well if Rick is going to cease responding to questions here I might as well put this puppy to bed as well. 




FrogZoo said:


> Seriously?
> This may be my last post.
> 
> *Who benefits from the captive bred production of an uncommon dart frog identical to one found in the wild?*
> 
> *My side:*
> The world through conservation. Using available healthy, top condition, captive bred resources to produce something identical to what is harvested from the wild that may have a wild disease, etc., just make good sense. The NUMBER 1 threat to tinctorius is the illegal pet trade. See, IUCN.org and search tinctorius as a keyword.
> 
> *Your side:*
> Assuming for your sake there is no reason to mix tincs to produce the three (3) ( New river, Villa Nova, True Sip), and to be fair another four (4) we have not shown yet, that leaves 3+4=7 from about 35. That is 28 first level combinations "already exist" then why go the jungle for more.
> 
> Add to that, any tinctorius is just a color morph of the species, the answer becomes breed for cool frogs to satisfy the pet trade and have fun doing it.
> 
> Okay, now everbody pile on.




Rick,

There are a number of serious flaws in your argument that captive breeding and the release of frogs that are of crossbred (hybrid) origins into the hobby reduces demand. 
First and foremost captive breeding does not reduce demand for an animal until the cost for the animal is less than what is required to collect and sell it, and second that something is being done to preserve and sustain the ecosystem. Captive breeding in and of itself does not do either as to reduce cost, the market has to be saturated but the market also cannot perceive new imports or the immediate descendents of new imports as being more desirable than the captive bred animals. So in actuality the breeding of your frogs from separate populations can drive up demand for more animals resulting in increased pressure. 

If you want to read the argument in full see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...ive-bred-conservation-efforts.html#post576511 and http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...ive-bred-conservation-efforts.html#post586940

specifically


> The first model is that the massive amount of captive breeding by the hobby will reduce demand for wild caught animals. This is a logical conclusion but ignores a host of factors that place conditions on the idea. The first hurdle is that the captive bred animals need to be as desirable as the wild caught animals. This issue is seen in species that show decreased coloration in captivity, those that are perceived as “poorly bred”, are considered inbred, are less expensive as wild caught animals, and/or lack specific locality data. This hurdle is further raised by marketing that targets captive populations as inferior which drives up demand for wild caught organisms while devaluing captive produced organisms. The premise that captive bred is more desirable doesn’t hold up for many taxa ranging from American ginseng (where the value of wild collected ginseng is much more valuable than farmed ginseng), to locality specific herps (dart frogs, grey banded kingsnakes, rosy boas), or wild collected animals (wild caught Oophaga pumilio being less expensive than captive bred O. pumilio). All of which drives demand for wild caught sources.
> 
> The second hurdle to this idea is that the supply has to be high enough that it is able to satisfy the demand for the animal(s) in question. This means that not only does the number of animals need to equal or exceed demand; it has to be able to compete with the cost of the wild caught animals. This runs into a couple of issues as often the cost of the wild caught animals is low enough that captive bred animals cannot be supplied at a price that is economically competitive (example farmed ball pythons versus captive bred ball pythons), and when demand is close to supply, the saturation causes people to get out of producing those animals resulting in a collapse of the captive populations (examples of collapsing populations due to supply can be seen by the captive history of Epipedobates tricolor/anthyoni). The collapse of the captive population is usually followed by a period of low supply and then a rebound of captive population, which in some cases drives demand for wild caught animals to supply new genetics to the population. As a further complication, captive produced animals tend to only supply demand on a regional versus global scale, which means other markets do not benefit or only benefit slightly from captive produced stock.


And if one wants the direct references see 

Courchamp, F., Angulo, E., Rivalan, P., Hall, R. J., Signoret, L., Bull, L., & Meinard, Y. (2006). Rarity value and species extinction: the anthropogenic Allee effect.
PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect

and 
Hall, R. J., Milner‐Gulland, E. J., & Courchamp, F. (2008). Endangering the endangered: the effects of perceived rarity on species exploitation. Conservation Letters, 1(2), 75-81
Endangering the endangered: The effects of perceived rarity on species exploitation - Hall - 2008 - Conservation Letters - Wiley Online Library


So because you have been releasing frogs of mixed origins even though they are of the same species potentially under a name that is specific to a wild population, you have driven hobbyists to want to make sure they are only getting animals with no questions of outcrossing to non-connected populations. So your actions are actually the opposite of reducing demand for wild caught frogs. 

So do you have any questions? I'm more than willing to discuss this and how you can actually contribute to conservation but your current actions and claims are actually the opposite of conservation. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

> Originally Posted by usafrog.com website
> American REBEL™ Tinctorius or ART™ Frogs are only available from USA Frog! They are selectively captive bred, cared for & raised only by us here in the U.S.A. Each and every one is pure to their species & variety (many new ones). They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed). Always top quality, health, beauty, and strength!
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved


Rick are you aware that making the claim that they can't be hybrids because they can reproduce is a direct misrepresentation of the facts. As I noted earlier in this thread several times, fertile offspring can and commonly do result from hybrid animals. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## edwardsatc

A heads up for those posting here. Rick posted what follows to his website today. It has since been taken down, but all involved should be careful of the wording they use here. As long as we all stick to the facts, and state our opinions as opinions, there should be nothing to fear.





usafrogs.com website" said:


> Anyone who tells you differenty, or tries to convince you the name of any frog name official other than the species name alone either: (1) does not know the truth, or (2) knows the truth and wants to deceive you using "mumbo jumbo". In essence and fact, they are a deceptive BOONDOGGLE of no value whatsoever other than to intentionally and purposefully confuse you to advance their own agenda. (Proof to follow). We wish we could apologize for the deceit of others when it comes to these pet frogs, and it is sad knowing they like the confusion, but we will remain steadfast and provide the best frogs at the best prices and *let the lawyers sort it out.* ("Boondoggle" means a wasteful project usually paid for with unknowing public support.)
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


Also, I can't help but think that it's no coincidence that they use of the term BOONDOGGLE when one of the active participants in this discussion uses the username BOONDOGGLE.


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## MasterOogway

I'm so over the hubris coming out of that site. I'll follow this thread still, but it's painfully apparent that actual science, logic, and care for the hobby are not things that will ever actually convince Rick that he is in the wrong here. He simply does not care; and no number of papers, facts or references we put forwards to him is going to change that. Good luck all. TG out.


----------



## brendan0923

I have a question for Rick, if he is still willing to post here:

So you want to mix "morphs" or "varieties," regardless of the possible consequences. Fine, it's clear that I nor anyone else on this board can convince you otherwise. But if you want dart frogs to go the way of the leopard gecko or the ball python, will you at least provide the lineage of the "mixed" frogs? For example, Frog A is a result of Frog BxFrog C, or something of that nature. Then at least people will know what they are buying, just as they do with beardies, leos, etc.

Because as a consumer, I don't like when I'm not getting a straight-forward description of what I'm buying. Frankly, the names on the website confuse me already. However, putting the lineages would help alleviate some of the confusion, as well as maybe, hopefully, help prevent a muddy gene pool with a bunch of "mutts," so to speak, and frogs that look like one morph but are actually a completley different morph.

Personally this is another reason why I disagree with "mixing" to begin with, but letting people know where this frog came from would be better than not knowing at all.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Boondoggle

usafrog.com said:


> Anyone who tells you differenty or tries to convince you the name of a variety is official either: (1) doe not know the truth, or (2) knows the truth and wants to deceive you using "mumbo jumbo". In essence and fact, they want to create and be a deceptive BOONDOGGLE of no value whatsoever other than to intentionally and purposefully confuse you to advance their own agenda. (Proof to follow). We wish we could apologize for the deceit of others when it comes to pet frogs, and it is sad knowing they like the confusion, but we will remain steadfast and provide the best frogs at the best prices and let the lawyers sort it out. ("Boondoggle" means a wasteful project usually paid for with unknowing public support.)


Oh brother, I guess I'm flattered. That's not the general context that "Boondoggle" is used in, but I guess that shouldn't come as any surprise.

Rick, if you really aren't coming back to the discussion then I am absolutely flummoxed. What was the point? Were you just after a quote that you could take out of context? You came in swinging, you were addressed respectfully, you didn't really seem to read the comments or questions of others, and then you took your ball and went home.

I'm genuinely disappointed. I was hoping to really have a genuine discussion. I don't even know what to make of the lawyer comment. Is that a threat of litigation over...over what? I got to be honest, it just doesn't look good. You know a lot about copyright law, and maybe even a little about frogs, but I think you have a lot to learn about public relations.

Anyways, I hope you just had better things to do today and you will be back to the conversation. It seemed like you had something to say. You weren't here to answer my question but you had something to say.


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## allegedhuman

FrogZoo said:


> You ask a question and I will fully answer it, if and only if, I too can ask a question and get it fully answered. Do me a favor though, a diatribe on something unrelated is not an answer, and wanting to "catch me in lie" is not worth your trouble. (For example, the "we won't sell mixes" was *never* we won't. I was careful to say "we have no present intent." No present itent does not speak to the future. Also, we always said we don't cross-breed. We don't and never have. We always stay within species.


If you are still here and responding FrogZoo, could you answer my question from yesterday? It was the second one posted right after Boondoggle asked about policy/intentions to sell mixed morphs.

To refresh everyone’s memory, since that was a page back by now, I was asking about this quote *“Each and every one is pure to their species & variety (many new ones). They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed)”* and why the use “not hybrid” and “not cross-bred” continues to be used to describe Artfrogs?

I gave definitions of these words with relatable examples involving dogs and asked why these words continued to be used when it has been repeatedly described what their true meaning entails and how they are being used incorrectly. 

The closest thing to a response I could find in the following post was 



FrogZoo said:


> Also, we always said we don't cross-breed. We don't and never have. We always stay within species.


 but this statement doesn't answer my question and acts as though my entire prior entry (which is separated from this newer quote by only 1 post by Ed following a similar topic as mine) doesn’t exist. 

If you did not read my earlier post yesterday would you re-read it to consider my explanations of why the term cross-breeding still applies even when breeding within the same species and then address my question? 

I am not the only one who has been approaching this issue, Ed had several posts adding excellent points, but considering this was only the second question asked and it had a pretty narrow focus revolving around those two words specifically I figured that would be a straightforward place to start.

Thanks


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## edwardsatc

Rick, 

No matter how many times you edit and rephrase it (at least 5 times in the past 2 days), it's still the same old garbage born of scientific ignorance, a lack of understanding of basic genetics, speciation, and, in particular, _*population genetics*_. 

If you honestly believe that all _D. tinctorius_, regardless of the phenotype and population, are "GENETICALLY THE EXACT SAME FROG AS ALL OTHER TINCTORIUS" (your words, not mine), then please explain to us how frogs of different colors and patterns can be mixed to arrive at a new color and/or pattern. For that matter, how do "GENETICALLY THE EXACT SAME FROG AS ALL OTHER TINCTORIUS" frogs have different phenotypes in the first place? Would you have us believe that it is phenotypic plasticity?

Pretty simple questions, really. This stuff is taught in middle and high school. It's not that difficult to understand. I'll bet that even Ted, from South Africa, understands these basic principles.

Further more, the fact that a frog has a name based on it's phenotype does NOT mean that we do not know the locality. For example, using your own example of azureus, this population has a very well know and well defined locality. 

IMO, you know the correct answers to these questions, but the truth and the facts don't fit your business model ...




usafrog.com website said:


> In the context of the OFFICIAL classification of all living things, these frogs are OFFICIALLY classified by species alone. The species are Tinctorius, Auratus, Leucomelas, and Truncatus. There is no such thing as a subspecies of Tinctorius, Auratus, Leucomelas, etc.
> 
> OFFICIALLY, because there are no subspecies of Tinctorius, Auratus, or Leucomelas, ALL of the individual names of these frogs such as Patricia, Azureus, Powder Grey (or blue), Cobalt, and the ones we use, are given names, and totally unofficial. The given name is used as shorthand to easily tell them apart by color and/or pattern, etc. Simply stated, ALL of the Tinctorius, including but not limted to: Azureus, Yellowback, Giant Orange, Citronella, QUASAR, SUPERNOVA, Oyapok, Patricia, Powder Grey (or blue), Cobalt, etc., are exactly the same frog genetically, and differ only in given name (nickname) for their color and pattern. This is much like race in humans. If someone were to say, "I met Ted. He is from South Africa." We only think people, not white or black.
> 
> Much to the dismay of some, this species ONLY classification will not change.* In fact, the steadfastness of the species only classification is best proven by the azureus ("azure" means blue). In the past, the Azureus was thought to a be a separate species, but after genetic testing the azureus is simply another Tinctorius even if it is blue. On that basis, some people will resort to an association of the difference in frog appearance to a certain locale where the wild frog ancestor lived. This association reinforces the fact frog appearance is THE first consideration, and locale secondary, unless geography not frogs is the primary focal point. Simply stated, it is the frog appearance that represents the locale, and not the other way around.
> 
> Thus, any given name is NEVER controlling in any way, not even locale, because ALL Tinctorius are GENETICALLY THE EXACT SAME FROG AS ALL OTHER TINCTORIUS. For completeness, only a very small of given names are actually based on the locale where the wild frog ancestor was found. For example, the Patricia was imported from the wild by a lady named Patricia. The Powder Grey has powder grey legs, etc.
> 
> For the sake of conservation, we all know the rain forest frog habitats are shrinking and the frogs must start to cluster or die off because of this human intervention. It is a good idea to breed the frogs in captivity and preseve what we know about locale, but to satisfy a growing pet frog demand it is NOT good to raid the dwindling rain forest for more pet frogs. (See, Conservation.)
> 
> As the rain forests dwindle, if another neighboring Tinctorius were to stop by and breed with the locals, the appearance of the offspring is likely different from either parent. See the SUPERNOVA (Villa Nova), GALAXY (New River), and QUASAR (Sipaliwinni Savannah or True Sip). Also, based on weather patterns and other natural occurrences, sdcientists have said these frogs commingle periodically in nature. Therefore, it is not surprisng for someone to find a "new" frog, when "new" simply means it looks different from the others we know of. USA Frog has a lot of "NEW" frogs!
> 
> With the OFFICIAL classificiation species only, EVERY Tinctorius is just a Tinctorius, and all "mixed race" Tinctorius are of equal status as their parents even if they look different, becaasue once a tinctorius always a tinctorius assuming the parents are tinctorius. Similarly, EVERY Auratus is just an Auratus. EVERY Leucomelas is just a Leucomelas.
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


----------



## Ed

> For the sake of conservation, we all know the rain forest frog habitats are shrinking and the frogs must start to cluster or die off because of this human intervention. It is a good idea to breed the frogs in captivity and preseve what we know about locale, but to satisfy a growing pet frog demand it is NOT good to raid the dwindling rain forest for more pet frogs. (See, Conservation.)........
> 
> As the rain forests dwindle, if another neighboring Tinctorius were to stop by and breed with the locals, the appearance of the offspring is likely different from either parent. See the SUPERNOVA (Villa Nova), GALAXY (New River), and QUASAR (Sipaliwinni Savannah or True Sip). Also, based on weather patterns and other natural occurrences, sdcientists have said these frogs commingle periodically in nature. Therefore, it is not surprisng for someone to find a "new" frog, when "new" simply means it looks different from the others we know of. USA Frog has a lot of "NEW" frogs!.........
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


There are multiple problems with the above scenario.... 

First and foremost is that the range of the frogs is not continuous but are patchily distributed. This means that inbetween each tiny location where a local population can be found is a an area typically known as a population sink. In short each population is surrounded by habitat that is unsuitable for the reproduction and survival of the frogs. This prevent populations of dendrobatid whose habitat is disappearing or disappeared from clustering together or even interacting with one another. As a result the scenario you postulated can't and does not happen. So you cannot equate captive bred hybrids (remember hybrids even those from separate genera (plural of genus) are known to produce fertile offspring)) to what occurs in the wild as these populations do not come into contact. In fact the last time there was any contact in D. tinctorius was something like 10,000 years ago. (see Noonan, B. P., & Gaucher, P. (2006). Refugial isolation and secondary contact in the dyeing poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius. Molecular Ecology, 15(14), 4425-4435.). As a result you shouldn't be claiming that scientists claim these populations periodically come into contact with each other in the wild as it has only happened once in 10,000 years. Additionally it is a surprise when the scientists find a new population of tinctorius or any other dendrobatid, if it was as routine as you make it then there wouldn't be any point in describing it in a paper submitted for publication. 

As I noted above releasing hybrid/crossbred/mixed frogs to the hobby is going to increase demand for the original animals from the wild so your plan is actually going to result in an increased demand for those animals from the wild. See post 1971 above for the discussion and some of the relevant references. So to make the claim that what you are doing is actually a benefit to the wild population is a significant stretch as you could actually drive demand up further. 

This is also before we get to the potential risk of outbreeding depression which as I noted above is known to occur in populations of frogs of the same species that are separated on very small distances....... 

It is also somewhat of a stretch to make the claim that the frogs are at risk because of habitat loss. Many dendrobatids (example pumilio) are often found at their greatest density in disturbed habitat and are adept at utilizing materials that people have discarded ranging from plastic bottles to car tires...... 

As I suggested above, if you want to discuss what can actually be done for conservation I would be happy to talk to you about it.

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S

Have been avoiding any housework today, so catching up on threads.....because of this topic decided to check out the website for "FrogSupply.com"---if someone didn't have a clue about the whole "hobby" they would be taken in....if you haven't had the time to check out the site--be sure to do so....disclaimers, definitions, sales BS--the whole nine yards...amazing.


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## edwardsatc

It's hard to keep up with the seemingly endless changes that Ricky makes over at his website (edited multiple times just today), but this one really amused me:



usafrog.com website said:


> *(Science won't be reversing itself and the species ONLY classification will not change. *Simply stated, ALL of the Tinctorius, including but not limted to: Azureus, Yellowback, Giant Orange, Citronella, QUASAR, SUPERNOVA, Oyapok, Patricia, Powder Grey (or blue), Cobalt, etc., are exactly the same frog genetically, and differ only in given name (nickname) for their color and pattern.


Oh Ricky, if you only had a clue about taxonomy. It's the one field in the biological sciences where reversals, changes, and addition/subtraction of subspecies are commonplace. For a good example, see this massive taxonomic revision of Dendrobatidae by Grant et al. in 2006:

http://www.dendrobates.org/articles/Grant2006.pdf


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## brendan0923

USA Frog website: said:


> Appearance differences do not change their species and the experts said this very strongly.* For example, the variety of blue frog called "azureus" (pictured at right) was once thought to be a separate species and called "Dendrobates Azureus". After official genetic testing, it is*now officially called Dendrobates Tinctorius. For even greater clarity, consider humans. We are different colors and shapes and all look different, but we are all the same species.


That is proof of the change of scientific names itself.


Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Boondoggle

That site said:


> On that basis, some people will resort to an association of the difference in frog appearance to a certain locale where the wild frog ancestor lived. This association reinforces the fact frog appearance is THE first consideration, and locale secondary, unless geography not frogs is the primary focal point. Simply stated, it is the frog appearance that represents the locale, and not the other way around. (For completeness, only a very few frog names are actually based on the locale where the wild frog ancestor was found. Almost ALL of the commonly used given frog names are descriptive of something. Moreover, "commonly descriptive" means generic under the law. For example, the Patricia was imported from the wild by a lady named Patricia. The Powder Grey has powder grey legs, etc.) Because ALL Tinctorius are GENETICALLY THE EXACT SAME FROG AS ALL OTHER TINCTORIUS no matter where it came from, or what it is called, any given name and/or locale info can NEVER be controlling for proper classification.


I've read this three times. I know the argument he's trying to make, and I'm still not 100% sure what he's trying to say. "Reinforces the fact frog appearans is THE fist consideration"? "Commonly descriptive means generic under the law"? "All tinctorius are GENETICALLY THE EXACT SAME FROG"? 

I don't know guys, he uses a lot of capitalization and that is very persuasive, logic be damned.


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## toostrange

I'm lost. I mean really,really lost. I'm not the smartest by any means but really Rick what was the point.


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## jdooley195

toostrange said:


> I'm lost. I mean really,really lost. I'm not the smartest by any means but really Rick what was the point.


To get people to look at his site again.


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## easternversant

I haven't seen this question asked or answered (though I could easily have missed it in this tome of thread...). Rick, have you produced F2s of your mixed frogs, that is mixed frog crossed with the same type of mixed frog? I'd be interested in seeing pictures here. 

You say that you are recreating known frogs by crossing, but F2s will often look very different than F1s. Just curious.


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## allegedhuman

USAFROG website said:


> On that basis, some people will resort to an association of the difference in frog appearance to a certain locale where the wild frog ancestor lived. This association reinforces the fact frog appearance is THE first consideration, and locale secondary, unless geography not frogs is the primary focal point. Simply stated, it is the frog appearance that represents the locale, and not the other way around. (For completeness, only a very few frog names are actually based on the locale where the wild frog ancestor was found. Almost ALL of the commonly used given frog names are descriptive of something. Moreover, "commonly descriptive" means generic under the law. For example, the Patricia was imported from the wild by a lady named Patricia. The Powder Grey has powder grey legs, etc.) Because ALL Tinctorius are GENETICALLY THE EXACT SAME FROG AS ALL OTHER TINCTORIUS no matter where it came from, or what it is called, any given name and/or locale info can NEVER be controlling for proper classification.


 Whew, that is a convoluted and distorted doozie...

*“Because ALL Tinctorius are GENETICALLY THE EXACT SAME FROG AS ALL OTHER TINCTORIUS no matter where it came from, or what it is called, any given name and/or locale info can NEVER be controlling for proper classification.”*

As a geneticist I call absolute giant steaming pile of frog-crap on this. Since when is the entire population of frogs identical twins or reproducing asexually so they all share the same genome? Please, no customer is that stupid enough to fall for that when a layperson can look at the incredible visual diversity among frogs and smell something fishy about that statement. 

Even USAFrog’s argument that they know everything about their advanced lines and the genetics behind the different lines to breed for certain colors immediately contradict their own statement. How can you know the genetics to specifically breed for something when all the frogs are genetically the same like you just claimed? If everyone is the same there is no genetic basis behind coloration in dart frogs and you can select and breed for NOTHING.

Even look at humans who do not have nearly the technicolor rainbow of variation in appearance as these frogs do, yet different populations from Europe, asia and all across the planet have different genetic profiles eventhough we are all the same species. Otherwise the entire field of forensics would be screwed and they couldn’t even help narrow down a suspect to a broad profile, much less identify a specific suspect.

And this? *“On that basis, some people will resort to an association of the difference in frog appearance to a certain locale where the wild frog ancestor lived. This association reinforces the fact frog appearance is THE first consideration, and locale secondary, unless geography not frogs is the primary focal point*.”

No, both the frogs AND geographic location are important. To use a famous quote from Dobzhansky ( a guy who has had a few useful things to say about biology) "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution"

Without the environment unique to certain locations we would not have the frogs we find there today. The frogs and location go hand in hand. The environment and geography all help shape populations and lead to adaptation. To say geography means nothing and all we should care about is the frog is to pretend these frogs live in sterile empty spaces that are all identical. In reality there is a BIG difference in environment if you are in mountains as high as 5000 feet, like the highland bronze auratus, compared to other auratus who live at more humid lowlands in rainforests around 0-800m high.

You can't JUST look at frogs visually and say "yeah, they look about the same as those that came from the Sipaliwini , so I'll call them a true sip too" Beauty always is more than just skin deep and by relying just on phenotypic similarity to describe a frog then all of those key adaptations that have taken thousands of years to make the frogs we have today will be thrown out the window to be arbitrarily blended like a 4 year old with a their playdough making giant dough balls of uniform brown that will never be able to reform those original distinctive colors of red, blue and green.

Man, did my little cousins get pissed and cry when they realized they weren't getting back their blue playdough out of the brown ball after they were done playing...but with playdough and toddlers you can easily go to the store to buy more when they realize they messed up. With frogs you don't get a "do-over" by going to Frogs-R-Us to buy a new batch and start over unless you end up importing more from the wild, which even Rick has vocally argued against. I don't think Rick will have the same epiphany as my cousins though...I really wish he would at least listen to the data and facts when we try to explain but despite his offer to answer our questions, he just doesn't even want to acknowledge our points in a direct discussion when we ask about simple things like his irregular definition of cross-breeding and instead edits the website in a flurry to try to spin some bizarre interpretation running contrary to logical scientific basis to counter our comments


----------



## Boondoggle

I thought I'd come beat this poor dead horse again, God help me. I ran across this.



Whatever that site is currently called said:


> As the wild locales disappear with the dwindling rain forest frog habitats, some frogs with different appearance are likely to cluster to survive. Consider Also, based on weather patterns and other natural occurrences, scientists have said these frogs commingle periodically in nature. If a neighboring Tinctorius were to stop by and breed with the locals, the appearance of the offspring is likely different from either parent.


I currently don't have the energy to refute this, but it shows a very basic misunderstanding of frogs, habitat, science and common sense. Also, after perusing the site again it occurs to me that Dendroboard members should get an editing credit.


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## SwampMan

I don't think the author believes it.


----------



## tardis101

This is probably going to end up being a mistake,  because I'm going to disagree with the majority here, but I'm going to take a shot.  First at least let me say I've read this thread from the beginning and the prior threads leading up to this one. Also, in case it's worth anything, I am also an endangered species biologist (15 years), with a bachelors (biology) and masters (zoology) with my emphasis in grad school being ichthyology and herpetology. I currently work with a variety of threatened and endangered animals (and occasionally plants). Primarily I work in species protection and restoration, but also sometimes with propagation and reintroductions. I am a tropical fish hobbyist (~35 years), a coral reef hobbyist (~30 yrs), an exotic plant hobbyist (orchids and bromeliads), and now a dart frog hobbyist (~5 years four species (two color morphs of one species)). I'm not trying to say my opinion is any better than other's, by giving my background, but because I'm not an active poster, all I'm saying is that I'm not just a random newbie who doesn't know anything (but always willing to learn more!). 

I also want to say that I see a lot of passion here. I think that's great and it demonstrates a dedication to having a great hobby. I'm also not going to suggest I think USdartfrog's marketing couldn't use some improvement. I also want to say that as a newish member of the dart frog hobby that on the whole the hobby feels less mature (perhaps not the right word) than other longer established ones such as coral reef keeping. What I mean by that is that is seems to be a young hobby with less hard science involved and more "this is what I did and it worked" and now everyone does it that way. Folks seem to try things by trial and error (nothing wrong with that!) rather than years of experimental design. 

The other thing that I've noticed is that much of the emotion over this topic seems to be the result of an idea that mixed frogs in the hobby are going to result in adverse effects to the frogs in the wild. I'm not sure if that's a correct interpretation or not. But just in case it is, I honestly don't see how that would occur. I can tell you straight up that the federal agencies that regulate threatened and endangered species (at least in the US) are never going to allow hobby raised animals/plants to be released into the wild as part of an approved program. This is especially true of amphibians. Federal agencies do not typically allow even wild caught amphibians to be released back into the wild if they've been held for a more than just a handful of days. That's not to say that captive propagation wouldn't be allowed, but it would be done under very stringent and controlled circumstances and (at least initially) only on a limited basis by a very small group of individuals. They certainly wouldn't use frogs from the pet trade that have been inbreed for decades now. One problem with generations of captive breed animals is the selection for those individuals best suited to life in captivity. We've seen this type of problem when breeding other threatened and endangered species (particularly fish and amphibians). An individual lives in captivity (and maybe thrives) is not necessarily the one that would live in the wild.

There are a number of genetic papers on dart frogs. As far as I can tell none of them suggest there is significant difference between color morphs (or location). That doesn't mean there aren't differences, it just means at this point in time the genetic differences are so small to be almost meaningless. That also doesn't mean that there aren't very good reasons to keep location/color morphs separate when developing a captive propagation program (there certainly are). But founding individuals for a captive propagation program are not likely to come from a hobbyist (again at least not in the US- and any listed threatened or endangered animals leaving/entering the US would very likely need approval from the US government).

I'm not saying anyone's opinion is "wrong" or "right." But I really don't think it's right to crucify someone because they are doing something you don't like. If we are honest here that's exactly what this thread is about. To try and stop people from buying frogs from USAdartfrog or get them to comply with how "we" think. If someone doesn't like the frogs someone is selling don't buy them. If someone is concerned with bloodlines only buy from people who can prove to your satisfaction the pedigree of the frogs you're purchasing. 

I know what I've said will be unpopular, but hopefully folks will read what I said with at least an open mind even if they ultimately disagree. 

PS. for the record I keep my frogs separate (except for the tadpoles, which I mentioned earlier in this thread).


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## phender

What you said won't be unpopular at all. Most people on this board realize that their frogs could never be used for repopulation purposes.

The problem now is these guys are trying to create rare morphs by crossing more common morphs, then selling them as the rare morph. That pretty much means that anyone who buys a dart frog from a pet or reptile store cannot participate in any dealings with serious froggers because even though their frog might look like a cobalt (for example), they will never really know for sure.
They are polluting the genetic lines of frogs that many people have spent their frogging career trying to preserve. (Not for repopulation, but just for the hobby). Since legal importation of frogs may not be around much longer, I'm sure you can see why some people might be a little upset.


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## tardis101

I don't know that is necessarily true. Plus I don't think implying that someone who buys the mixed morph frogs isn't a "serious frogger." All it means is they like something different.  For example I like hybrid orchids over their wild counter parts. 

If at the point where a frogger who has potentially mixed morph frogs decides they'd rather be interacting with people who don't then it seems a straightforward matter to acknowledging some of their frogs' lineages can't be verified and leave them out of any trading, selling, buying etc. with other people. In the end you have to trust the person you're trading/selling with or not. If folks are willing to interact with people they don't know then it seems like we'd have to acknowledge we don't really know what we're getting from them.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

What happens when that serious hobbyist, who's into something different, decides to get out of the hobby? When that person fails to sell these mutt frogs because, frankly, not many people want them,they could just pass them off as whatever species they most closely resemble. You see how easily this could pollute the current gene pool?


----------



## Dane

> *Originally Posted by Whatever that site is currently called*
> As the wild locales disappear with the dwindling rain forest frog habitats, some frogs with different appearance are likely to cluster to survive. Consider Also, based on weather patterns and other natural occurrences, scientists have said these frogs commingle periodically in nature. If a neighboring Tinctorius were to stop by and breed with the locals, the appearance of the offspring is likely different from either parent.


Dart frogs are now migratory? I guess you learn something new every day. At least some of us do...



tardis101 said:


> If at the point where a frogger who has potentially mixed morph frogs decides they'd rather be interacting with people who don't then it seems a straightforward matter to acknowledging some of their frogs' lineages can't be verified and leave them out of any trading, selling, buying etc. with other people. In the end you have to trust the person you're trading/selling with or not. If folks are willing to interact with people they don't know then it seems like we'd have to acknowledge we don't really know what we're getting from them.


If everyone was as honest as I'm sure you are, there would be no issues. The problem with mixed lineages, in any context, is that under certain life circumstances, or in the hands of less-than-honest individuals, a frog can turn in to whatever it may happen to look like, as long as it will make the sale. 
Bad frogs go into the same marketplace as good frogs, and beginners/the uninformed/the indifferent, will still buy based on price. When those same individuals are no longer able to, or interested in keeping frogs, the cycle begins again.

Edit: And Jason beats me to the punch with a more precise wording of the same sentiment. +1.


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## tardis101

epiphytes etc. said:


> What happens when that serious hobbyist, who's into something different, decides to get out of the hobby? When that person fails to sell these mutt frogs because, frankly, not many people want them,they could just pass them off as whatever species they most closely resemble. You see how easily this could pollute the current gene pool?


That seems very much like what could happen now and goes back to what I said before about whether you trust the person you're getting frogs from. If a person is unethical enough to lie about what they are selling then they weren't trust worthy to begin with. Based on the opinions I've read in this thread, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone here (or anyone who wants only pure morph frogs) would buy from someone they don't know or didn't trust.

It seems that if most dart frog hobbyists are interested only in pure morph frogs, then a system of certification (of pedigree) seems to be needed, much like dogs, horses, cats, etc. But just like with dogs/cats, etc that won't 100% prove one is getting a pure morph frog. It only means someone has promised you (on paper now too) that the frog you getting is pure. So again it seems to go back to who you trust when you buy frogs.


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## jdooley195

Well, if you agree that one should trust the person they are buying frogs from, then you should easily agree with people here doing all they can to spread the word about this company.


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## SwampMan

"It seems that if most dart frog hobbyists are interested only in pure morph frogs, then a system of certification (of pedigree) seems to be needed,"

That won't stop bad frog breeding habits. The "noob" is still going to go where his dollar stretches the farthest. Education, not regulation.


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## big_frog

tardis101 said:


> This is probably going to end up being a mistake,  because I'm going to disagree with the majority here, but I'm going to take a shot.  First at least let me say I've read this thread from the beginning and the prior threads leading up to this one. Also, in case it's worth anything, I am also an endangered species biologist (15 years), with a bachelors (biology) and masters (zoology) with my emphasis in grad school being ichthyology and herpetology. I currently work with a variety of threatened and endangered animals (and occasionally plants). Primarily I work in species protection and restoration, but also sometimes with propagation and reintroductions. I am a tropical fish hobbyist (~35 years), a coral reef hobbyist (~30 yrs), an exotic plant hobbyist (orchids and bromeliads), and now a dart frog hobbyist (~5 years four species (two color morphs of one species)). I'm not trying to say my opinion is any better than other's, by giving my background, but because I'm not an active poster, all I'm saying is that I'm not just a random newbie who doesn't know anything (but always willing to learn more!).
> 
> I also want to say that I see a lot of passion here. I think that's great and it demonstrates a dedication to having a great hobby. I'm also not going to suggest I think USdartfrog's marketing couldn't use some improvement. I also want to say that as a newish member of the dart frog hobby that on the whole the hobby feels less mature (perhaps not the right word) than other longer established ones such as coral reef keeping. What I mean by that is that is seems to be a young hobby with less hard science involved and more "this is what I did and it worked" and now everyone does it that way. Folks seem to try things by trial and error (nothing wrong with that!) rather than years of experimental design.
> 
> The other thing that I've noticed is that much of the emotion over this topic seems to be the result of an idea that mixed frogs in the hobby are going to result in adverse effects to the frogs in the wild. I'm not sure if that's a correct interpretation or not. But just in case it is, I honestly don't see how that would occur. I can tell you straight up that the federal agencies that regulate threatened and endangered species (at least in the US) are never going to allow hobby raised animals/plants to be released into the wild as part of an approved program. This is especially true of amphibians. Federal agencies do not typically allow even wild caught amphibians to be released back into the wild if they've been held for a more than just a handful of days. That's not to say that captive propagation wouldn't be allowed, but it would be done under very stringent and controlled circumstances and (at least initially) only on a limited basis by a very small group of individuals. They certainly wouldn't use frogs from the pet trade that have been inbreed for decades now. One problem with generations of captive breed animals is the selection for those individuals best suited to life in captivity. We've seen this type of problem when breeding other threatened and endangered species (particularly fish and amphibians). An individual lives in captivity (and maybe thrives) is not necessarily the one that would live in the wild.
> 
> There are a number of genetic papers on dart frogs. As far as I can tell none of them suggest there is significant difference between color morphs (or location). That doesn't mean there aren't differences, it just means at this point in time the genetic differences are so small to be almost meaningless. That also doesn't mean that there aren't very good reasons to keep location/color morphs separate when developing a captive propagation program (there certainly are). But founding individuals for a captive propagation program are not likely to come from a hobbyist (again at least not in the US- and any listed threatened or endangered animals leaving/entering the US would very likely need approval from the US government).
> 
> I'm not saying anyone's opinion is "wrong" or "right." But I really don't think it's right to crucify someone because they are doing something you don't like. If we are honest here that's exactly what this thread is about. To try and stop people from buying frogs from USAdartfrog or get them to comply with how "we" think. If someone doesn't like the frogs someone is selling don't buy them. If someone is concerned with bloodlines only buy from people who can prove to your satisfaction the pedigree of the frogs you're purchasing.
> 
> I know what I've said will be unpopular, but hopefully folks will read what I said with at least an open mind even if they ultimately disagree.
> 
> PS. for the record I keep my frogs separate (except for the tadpoles, which I mentioned earlier in this thread).


Well said! There's a lot on this thread of people quoting Wikipedia and other sources without learning themselves how things really work or happen. And Rick while definitely not good with words and crazy wording does make somevalid points


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## big_frog

epiphytes etc. said:


> What happens when that serious hobbyist, who's into something different, decides to get out of the hobby? When that person fails to sell these mutt frogs because, frankly, not many people want them,they could just pass them off as whatever species they most closely resemble. You see how easily this could pollute the current gene pool?


If he did that then he wasn't a serious hobbyist at all..


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## MasterOogway

big_frog said:


> Well said! There's a lot on this thread of people quoting Wikipedia and other sources without learning themselves how things really work or happen. And Rick while definitely not good with words and crazy wording does make somevalid points


Please, name one.


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## Barry Thomas

This thread will continue going in circles for years. It will always boil down to 1 simple thing. If you don't like their frogs or their marketing, don't buy them. Continue buying from the same trusted source you buy from now. They do not affect you or your frog collection. If you wish to buy from them do so and enjoy your pets.


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## Ed

None of the following is what I would consider incorrect but it doesn't cover the issues completely. So the following is simply fleshing out the issue a little more clearly. 



tardis101 said:


> What I mean by that is that is seems to be a young hobby with less hard science involved and more "this is what I did and it worked" and now everyone does it that way. Folks seem to try things by trial and error (nothing wrong with that!) rather than years of experimental design.


The hobby has come a long way in the last ten to fifteen years but there are still a lot of people out there who are "established" names that still hold to the old "voodoo husbandry" practices as opposed to learning the science behind the reasons. It is those individuals that can cause misconceptions to perpetuate as they provide instructions to those who purchase frogs from them. 



tardis101 said:


> The other thing that I've noticed is that much of the emotion over this topic seems to be the result of an idea that mixed frogs in the hobby are going to result in adverse effects to the frogs in the wild. I'm not sure if that's a correct interpretation or not. But just in case it is, I honestly don't see how that would occur. I can tell you straight up that the federal agencies that regulate threatened and endangered species (at least in the US) are never going to allow hobby raised animals/plants to be released into the wild as part of an approved program.


The idea that the frogs or other animals in the hobby are going to be repatriated to the wild is pretty much dead here and has been for awhile. There are some pretty clear discussions on it with relevant citations available. 

Now that doesn't mean that the wild populations aren't going to be affected by the hobby. People are often confused by the meaning of the word "morph" in this hobby as it is used different than many other hobbies. In the context of the hobby "morph" is actually the name of a population that has a distinct pattern and or size post metamorphosis. Now this doesn't mean that the frogs have to look identical as there is always some variability within a population. In addition, the vast majority of these animals originated from only a few imports. 

There is a lot of perception in the dendrobatid hobby that wild caught frogs are superior to captive bred frogs due to size and the intensity of color. The hobby has locked down some of the variables in this and the difference isn't quite as apparent as in the past but there is still a lot of room for improvement. As an example there is a lot of status in breeding frogs even though this has pretty much been reduced to simple process for most of the dendrobatids. As a result, the frogs are housed under conditions that induce reproduction 7 days a week/52 weeks a year. This shifts the demands for growth and pigments for patterns to provisioning of eggs. Consequently the frogs have their growth slow significantly and carotenoids are diverted from pigmentation to egg provisioning. 

So we can demonstrate that there is a perceived increased value for wild caught frogs. If we now include the issue that various populations in captivity are subsequently outcrossed with frogs from other population, the demand for new bloodlines is then likely increased further. 

This also encourages poaching and smuggling of the frogs to the point that there are reports of at least population of dendrobatids being effectively extirpated. see for example www.DartFrog.tk - Lehmanni Crisis - 2009. 

So there we can see that there is an established smuggling network that will target populations that are in demand and can depending on the population cause localized extinctions. 

So we already have that the perception of captive bred animals being less desirable than the frogs from the same population in the wild and into that mix there is the addition that frogs of hybrid origins are being bred into the captive population which again is considered by many to be a detriment so that is going to further increase demand for wild animals. 
For the information behind the process see 

Courchamp, F., Angulo, E., Rivalan, P., Hall, R. J., Signoret, L., Bull, L., & Meinard, Y. (2006). Rarity value and species extinction: the anthropogenic Allee effect.
PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect

and 
Hall, R. J., Milner‐Gulland, E. J., & Courchamp, F. (2008). Endangering the endangered: the effects of perceived rarity on species exploitation. Conservation Letters, 1(2), 75-81

Endangering the endangered: The effects of perceived rarity on species exploitation - Hall - 2008 - Conservation Letters - Wiley Online Library



tardis101 said:


> If someone is concerned with bloodlines only buy from people who can prove to your satisfaction the pedigree of the frogs you're purchasing.


Now as I've mentioned in the past the hobby has yet to own up to its own complicity in this issue. If the hobby had embraced the various attempts to track and sustain numbers and populations of the frogs instead of being apathetic or simply obstructionist then the concern about hybrid frogs would be a relative non-issue as the lineage of a frog or frogs could be known for generations.

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

big_frog said:


> Well said! There's a lot on this thread of people quoting Wikipedia and other sources without learning themselves how things really work or happen. And Rick while definitely not good with words and crazy wording does make somevalid points


Some of the wikipedia quotes were deliberately made for context...... 


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## AbeV

FrogZoo said:


> We don't mix species. The names for the frogs are not names of species. It is a fact, ALL tinctorius are tinctorius and that's it. All auratus are auratus and that's it. All Leucomelas are leucomeals and that's is.
> 
> The names patricia and powder grey... are generic names, and have absolutely no official significance. Everybody knows that and still people want those names to be species names, and overuse the term in hopes people bite.
> 
> I said we don't mix species, and yet there it is you saying we do, as if the varieties, etc. are species which they are not. This is going nowhere. The agenda is clear. Keep hammering the untruth to make it true.
> 
> Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius.


THIS is where my issue with all of this comes in. I'm brand new to darts. I've been researching and trying to know everything that I can PRIOR to actually buying a frog. While doing so, I've read books, visited multiple websites, and joined a few different forums, Dendroboard being the most recent.

Do you know what 98% of those resources do? 

First off......they're consistent with the name/morph/species whatever term you want to use. A Green Sip is still called a Green Sip, Patricia is a Patricia. Even if these "names" are not the officially recognized, or are considered generic, they're fairly consistent across the board. As a noob this is important. When I'm researching materials I don't want to be confused by the different names.

Second, you said.....

"Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius."

If you are "combining two dissimilar tinctorius" that has the appearance and characteristics of an existing tinc, that should be disclosed on your website.

Here is an example. We have a Bernese Mtn. Dog. Actually that's not 100% true. He's a hybrid, mix, mutt. His dad was a registered purebred BMD, and mother was half Great Pyrenees, half BMD. My dog's not REALLY a Bernese Mtn. Dog, but he looks identical to one. In fact, he's fooled a few vets into thinking he's a purebred. He's over 9 years old with minimal heath issues, and could easily live for another five years. The average for a purebred BMD is 9 years.

With that said, we chose a "hybrid" because of the additional health benefits and looked purebred.

The point of all of this is that we had a choice between purebred and hybrid pups. We knew ahead of time that he was a hybrid no matter what he was called.

I'm not going to get into the ethics of "combining two dissimilar tincatorius" but if you are selling an animal that is a "combination of two dissimilar tincatorius" it should be disclosed in the description of the animal REGARDLESS of the name its given.

Just my two cents....

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## tardis101

I've numbered the paragraphs to help me remember which one I'm responding too 


Ed said:


> #1The hobby has come a long way in the last ten to fifteen years but there are still a lot of people out there who are "established" names that still hold to the old "voodoo husbandry" practices as opposed to learning the science behind the reasons. It is those individuals that can cause misconceptions to perpetuate as they provide instructions to those who purchase frogs from them.


I don't disagree with you at all, what I was attempting to articulate was that the hobby still has a long way to go to catch up with hobbies like tropical fish or reef keeping. 



Ed said:


> #2The idea that the frogs or other animals in the hobby are going to be repatriated to the wild is pretty much dead here and has been for awhile. There are some pretty clear discussions on it with relevant citations available.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean that the wild populations aren't going to be affected by the hobby. People are often confused by the meaning of the word "morph" in this hobby as it is used different than many other hobbies. In the context of the hobby "morph" is actually the name of a population that has a distinct pattern and or size post metamorphosis. Now this doesn't mean that the frogs have to look identical as there is always some variability within a population. In addition, the vast majority of these animals originated from only a few imports.


I wasn't implying that the dart frog hobby has no effect on wild populations. It certainly does, one of the drivers threatening these animals is habitat loss and the pet trade. I was saying I don't see an effect of mixed morph frogs affecting the wild populations. But I'll address that more below.



Ed said:


> #3There is a lot of perception in the dendrobatid hobby that wild caught frogs are superior to captive bred frogs due to size and the intensity of color. The hobby has locked down some of the variables in this and the difference isn't quite as apparent as in the past but there is still a lot of room for improvement. As an example there is a lot of status in breeding frogs even though this has pretty much been reduced to simple process for most of the dendrobatids. As a result, the frogs are housed under conditions that induce reproduction 7 days a week/52 weeks a year. This shifts the demands for growth and pigments for patterns to provisioning of eggs. Consequently the frogs have their growth slow significantly and carotenoids are diverted from pigmentation to egg provisioning.


That very well might be true (or it might not be if there are aren't any studies looking at it and it's all anecdotal). Frogs that were imported decades ago in relatively low numbers may in fact look less robust than their wild counter parts. However, once you weed through all of the marketing/TM stuff isn't that exactly what USA dart frogs are addressing? If they are mixing morphs that are not closely related (related I mean to other frogs imported into the hobby) and they are producing individual frogs with brighter color, larger individuals, or whatever and even experts can't tell those frogs from pure morphs then it sounds like they have produced frogs that at least look like their wild morph cousins. 

If no one can actually produce proof of lineage of the frogs they have (i.e., there isn't a genetic test that folks are certifying when they sell frogs) and it's all based on the word of the individual selling a frog and the frogs someone is selling look just like the local/morph (even if they are mixed) then what difference does it actually make? The person buying is getting a frog that looks exactly like what they want. Although I agree if they are mixed morph that should be disclosed. And to be honest, if it's all been "trust me" for 30 years then I think it's very likely there are mixed morph frogs in the hobby already. How many...no way to tell.



Ed said:


> #4So we can demonstrate that there is a perceived increased value for wild caught frogs. If we now include the issue that various populations in captivity are subsequently outcrossed with frogs from other population, the demand for new bloodlines is then likely increased further.
> 
> This also encourages poaching and smuggling of the frogs to the point that there are reports of at least population of dendrobatids being effectively extirpated. see for example www.DartFrog.tk - Lehmanni Crisis - 2009.
> 
> So there we can see that there is an established smuggling network that will target populations that are in demand and can depending on the population cause localized extinctions.
> 
> So we already have that the perception of captive bred animals being less desirable than the frogs from the same population in the wild and into that mix there is the addition that frogs of hybrid origins are being bred into the captive population which again is considered by many to be a detriment so that is going to further increase demand for wild animals.


I understand your point, and I've certainly seen over collection of endangered insects (particularly butterflies) result in population crashes and even extirpation in three separate places, and it's even happened as the result of over study by universities. But then the question becomes who's demanding these frogs? The frog noob, non-serious frogger, or the 10 year old that got some from PetSmart? That seems unlikely. So it would seem to me we are talking about people who are serious dart frog hobbyists (and please don't take that to suggest I mean any specific person here, I'm just saying it's folks in the hobby). This to me is where the education part comes in and seems like where a system or certification of the frogs we get would prove useful. I don't necessarily mean a regulation (i.e., something passed by local, state, federal government) I mean a standard and rating system that is given to breeders or retailers (like for purebreed dogs/cats). I guess you could look at that as a form of self regulating if you like. Where the hobby takes responsibility for ensuring legal frogs and frogs of a certain pedigree. 

One will never eliminate the black market or smuggling network. We can't even get rid of it with large animals and things like ivory. So I'm not saying we'll eliminate the issue, but suggesting folks like USADart frog are going to cause increased collection in the wild, when the hobby isn't taking the issue head on itself (i.e., a certification/approval system), seems like ignoring the elephant in the room. 

I do appreciate the comment about the hobby still needing to own up to it's complicity and I agree with you. If we had it, this whole mixed morph thing would very likely be a non-issue.


----------



## tardis101

AbeV said:


> First off......they're consistent with the name/morph/species whatever term you want to use. A Green Sip is still called a Green Sip, Patricia is a Patricia. Even if these "names" are not the officially recognized, or are considered generic, they're fairly consistent across the board. As a noob this is important. When I'm researching materials I don't want to be confused by the different names.
> 
> The point of all of this is that we had a choice between purebred and hybrid pups. We knew ahead of time that he was a hybrid no matter what he was called.
> 
> I'm not going to get into the ethics of "combining two dissimilar tincatorius" but if you are selling an animal that is a "combination of two dissimilar tincatorius" it should be disclosed in the description of the animal REGARDLESS of the name its given.
> 
> Just my two cents....
> 
> Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


Those seem like really good reasons/examples. 

And I think your point is spot on. Choice. It seems like the only real way to make sure you're getting what you've paid for is to have a system in like like other pedigreed animals/pets.


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## gope

tardis101 said:


> I don't disagree with you at all, what I was attempting to articulate was that the hobby still has a long way to go to catch up with hobbies like tropical fish or reef keeping.


Glowfish, blood parrots, balloon fish, beta bowls, the list of atrocities is endless. For some I think the fear is that the frog hobby will "catch up" to that. I'm new to PDFs and have been quite happy to find this hobby small enough to manage, unlike the tropical fish hobby that I've been a part of for quite a few years. There has been a code of ethics established here through a lot of research and hard work by the major players and this guy is attempting to blow it all up. And the worst of it is he's not being honest about it.


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## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> This is probably going to end up being a mistake,  because I'm going to disagree with the majority here, but I'm going to take a shot.


Not a mistake at all. You make some really valid points. It's actually refreshing to hear the other side of the argument _without_ a slew of misleading statements, half truths, bunk science and quotes out of context. Rick would make a much stronger argument if he could just stick to the facts and stop stating his misconceptions as if they were widely accepted data.

The base of the argument, as I see it, is that since none of these frogs will ever see the rain forest again it doesn't matter what we do as far as breeding. Those who want frogs as close to location specific examples can have them and those who would like to mix all the colors of the rainbow can do so provided everyone is honest. 

I think that's as strong a case as can be made but it ignores the consistent behavior we've seen among hobbyists. All of the following is absolutely anecdotal, but that's about the best you're going to get on this subject and doesn't necessarily make it worthless. Any time I've seen a specific tinc have it's lineage come into question, it almost immediately becomes much less desirable and people stop breeding them. Less breeding means less available genetics and ends up being the bust in a boom/bust cycle. 

I've used this as an example in this thread before, but at one time there were two similar but distinctly different tincs, Regina and Giant Orange and they were both much more popular than they currently are. Eventually it was revealed that these frogs had come from the same site and had been artificially separated by appearance. Now as far as questionable lineage, this is best case scenario. It means that the animals could be bred together and that there were more genetics, not less (as would be the case had mixing been revealed, instead), but their popularity dropped nonetheless. If it had been revealed that the tinc in question was actually a mix, I guarantee they would have died out altogether. 

Those people didn't stop owning frogs, many just purchased Matecho instead. It was newer, had a similar appearance and had no shadow over it's genetics...and it boomed.

The short version of that is that we've reliably seen in the past (not just that example) that...

1) Questionable genetics exacerbates boom/bust cycles, and...

2) Boom/bust cycles put greater demand on newer wild-type frogs with "known" genetics which...

3) Makes smuggling more profitable due to demand.

Rick sees the problem with step 3, so his solution is to create a situation that causes step 1 on an unprecedented scale. The reality is Rick only cared about step 3 when he found a way to shoehorn it into his argument for crossbred frogs. He's made a critical economic blunder. He envisioned a product that turned out to have very little demand, and so instead of tailoring his product to the current demand, he's trying to create another customer base, but because the above is pretty well known, he has to do so among the uninformed.

BTW you're completely right about a registration process. Maybe it would see more participation now that hobbyists can see a definite threat. I for one wish I had taken it more seriously.


----------



## Philsuma

^^ Best post with respect to what they are trying to do in this entire thread. Bravo. Perfect.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Agreed. Well said, Jeremy.


----------



## markpulawski

Barry Thomas said:


> This thread will continue going in circles for years. It will always boil down to 1 simple thing. If you don't like their frogs or their marketing, don't buy them. Continue buying from the same trusted source you buy from now. They do not affect you or your frog collection. If you wish to buy from them do so and enjoy your pets.


Barry they do effect us but obviously not immediately per your suggestion above, but 2, 3 even 5 years from now the backgrounds of a % of Tincs & Auratus will have to be questioned. Them mixing morphs will no doubt create demand for WC imports to some degree but the Pandora's Box of wide spread distribution of these frogs and no knowledge as to who received them will keep this concern viable for some time....probably longer than I have time left in the hobby.


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> I don't disagree with you at all, what I was attempting to articulate was that the hobby still has a long way to go to catch up with hobbies like tropical fish or reef keeping.


In what way? You keep throwing this out there without evidence on what you actually mean. 

The dendrobatid hobby has practices that are pretty closely aligned with some of the tropical fish hobby... For example, killifish keepers who maintain lines of specific locality animals without outcrossing them to other localities. As an example from the American Killifish Association 



> For example Nothobranchius rachovii Beira ’91, a very beautiful fish, represents a particular strain of this species identified by the locality and the year in which it was collected. It is strongly felt, in the killie hobby, that such strains not be crossed with others, even when they appear to be the same fish. Such crossings can produce hybrids, which may be sterile, or at least are fish that nature never produced


  from Beginner’s Guide | American Killifish Association

If your referring to technology then that is changing as the popularity of reptiles and amphibians increases. When I first started in the hobby to keep snakes warm you were supposed to wrap plumbing heating tape over a couple of tiles to heat the tank or use light bulbs protected behind peg board. 

Are you referring to the fish that are massively produced in farms in Asia? So that everyone can have the next glo-fish or dye injected albino Gymnocorymbus ternetzi or tri-hybrid parrot fish? 

Where is this hobby operating in a deficit as compared to the fish hobby? 
This hobby's practices are much more closely aligned with those that work with species from specific populations like killifish, species bettas, specific populations of endler's livebearers and so forth. So a comparison to the generic fish trade is more of an apples and oranges argument unless your going to argue that the specialist hobbies are also less developed or are more backwards...... .



tardis101 said:


> I wasn't implying that the dart frog hobby has no effect on wild populations. It certainly does, one of the drivers threatening these animals is habitat loss and the pet trade. I was saying I don't see an effect of mixed morph frogs affecting the wild populations. But I'll address that more below.


Actually for many dendrobatid species habitat disruption such as trash heaps and secondary growth areas can increase populations so the argument over habitat loss is not as compelling for many of these populations and species. This is further supported by the fact that they feed on a wide variety of small invertebrates so habitat disruption doesn't really affect their diet. Even species that use phytotelmata readily adapt to using trash.... 



tardis101 said:


> That very well might be true (or it might not be if there are aren't any studies looking at it and it's all anecdotal). Frogs that were imported decades ago in relatively low numbers may in fact look less robust than their wild counter parts. However, once you weed through all of the marketing/TM stuff isn't that exactly what USA dart frogs are addressing? If they are mixing morphs that are not closely related (related I mean to other frogs imported into the hobby) and they are producing individual frogs with brighter color, larger individuals, or whatever and even experts can't tell those frogs from pure morphs then it sounds like they have produced frogs that at least look like their wild morph cousins.


Actually no they aren't addressing this and this comment makes me suspect that you really haven't read the discussions on this.....

You may also want to read the threads on frogs of poor quality or substandard. As I noted before a number of these things have been addressed by the hobby but the claims by whatever they are calling themselves have to be considered suspect when the diet they have claimed to be using is lacking in compounds that are required for that coloration. As an example, the red of the belly of a fire belly toad is determined via diet which is why for the longest time captive bred firebelly toads had yellow bellies..... So if this isn't included in the diet of the frogs (of what is published) I have to strongly suspect that the coloration isn't all they claim it to be...... 

This is also before we get to the issues of outbreeding depression... All of the supposed "improvement" that occurs in the F1 can be lost in the F2 and significant problems can occur by the F5. So how is it being addressed given that it doesn't persist in the populations? In addition, the recommendations for sustaining captive populations tends to be to only hybridize when there is no other option. See 

EDMANDS, S. (2006). Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management. Molecular Ecology, 16, 463-475.
https://dornsife.usc.edu/assets/sites/574/docs/Edmands_2007.pdf 




tardis101 said:


> If no one can actually produce proof of lineage of the frogs they have (i.e., there isn't a genetic test that folks are certifying when they sell frogs) and it's all based on the word of the individual selling a frog and the frogs someone is selling look just like the local/morph (even if they are mixed) then what difference does it actually make? The person buying is getting a frog that looks exactly like what they want. Although I agree if they are mixed morph that should be disclosed. And to be honest, if it's all been "trust me" for 30 years then I think it's very likely there are mixed morph frogs in the hobby already. How many...no way to tell.


As for proof of lineage claim, these frogs can live for 20 plus years while remaining reproductively active so there are still animals that are closely descended from the original imports in some cases. In others there are people who have reputations for having a population for decades (in some cases) so the risk that the population is mixed is not as great as you imply. In addition, if someone had frogs that produced mixed progeny the news would get around pretty quickly and the people who produced those frogs could have a large segment of the hobby refuse to purchase from them. It also makes a lot of difference if you want to breed the frogs and have progeny that look like the parents. If your attempting to breed F1 or higher number F hybrids then the chances that your going to get offspring that look like the phenotype of the real populations is pretty tiny.. So the argument that if it looks like the real population its okay really is without a lot of merit as it overlooks a lot of the issues...... 



tardis101 said:


> I understand your point, and I've certainly seen over collection of endangered insects (particularly butterflies) result in population crashes and even extirpation in three separate places, and it's even happened as the result of over study by universities. But then the question becomes who's demanding these frogs?


Contrary to the arguments put forth by the topic of this thread, there is significant threat of overcollection by smugglers and illegal trade in the frogs to Asia, Europe and the US. see for example 
Nijman, V., & Shepherd, C. R. (2010). The role of Asia in the global trade in CITES II-listed poison arrow frogs: hopping from Kazakhstan to Lebanon to Thailand and beyond. Biodiversity and conservation, 19(7), 1963-1970. 

One of the things that is pretty well established (see references I posted before) that demand only goes down when the market is saturated. So if that ten year old breeds his frogs and discovers that they are hybrids and that what he thought was population Y is incorrect? Breeding these frogs is pretty simple and cookbook at this point... So does that mean its okay to let people think they are getting one thing and have them purchase another? It seems like you are advocating that it is okay to mismarket or mislead novice purchasers. 




tardis101 said:


> One will never eliminate the black market or smuggling network. We can't even get rid of it with large animals and things like ivory. So I'm not saying we'll eliminate the issue, but suggesting folks like USADart frog are going to cause increased collection in the wild, when the hobby isn't taking the issue head on itself (i.e., a certification/approval system), seems like ignoring the elephant in the room.


Actually its not ignoring the issue. If a person or persons is serious about taking the black market on then one should also remove factors that are going to increase demand for smuggled or wild collected animals. It sounds like your saying that it is okay to sell hybrid frogs until the hobby steps up to the board and sets up a registry. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dendro Dave

Barry Thomas said:


> This thread will continue going in circles for years. It will always boil down to 1 simple thing. If you don't like their frogs or their marketing, don't buy them. Continue buying from the same trusted source you buy from now. They do not affect you or your frog collection. If you wish to buy from them do so and enjoy your pets.


*

I'm still getting caught up since the reopening, but here are some friendly  <--SEE thoughts in my most unemotional vulcan like tone possible ...

They don't exist in a vacuum.* We had the random guy here and there producing a few hybrid and/or mixed morph frogs, which would trickle into the hobby and typically word would get out and it would get nipped in the butt fairly quickly, or at the very least the damage they could do because of the scale they operated on and the awareness was limited.

Now we have a large commercial entity pumping hundreds if not thousands of suspect frogs into a relatively small but growing market. Lot's of people who don't know better will be taken in by them, People who buy from the larger sellers that buy wholesale from usafrog will end up with their frogs unknowingly (which is arguably worse then the typical "unknown" frog out there), people who know better but trust the wrong guy or forget to ask the right questions will end up with their frogs, and chances are at some point those frogs may even be passed along.

Those frogs will slowly be disseminated into the captive population... And *we've already seen the beginnings of damage being done to our confidence in the species that Usafrog works with. *This idea that they can do their own thing and it will never touch us, or anyone we know or care about is deeply naive and flawed... *at best.*

We've already seen buyers remorse here, a respected scientist dragged through the mud, and this whole conflict/drama was instigated by their unwillingness to accept community standards and SOP when they blew off the community.

Then we have what many of us to believe to be lies. Sorry Rick don't buy the first or second cover story for the "we won't mix species or varieties" statements. Pretty sure there was no "at this time" there for awhile, though I wouldn't be shocked if you added it in an edit to cover yourself later at some point to compliment your "it was a valid business tactic" excuse.

We also have the what many believe to be a mix of intentional misinformation, and/or incompetence, what many consider sleazy marketing (including targeting the least informed, and attacking other companies and breeders), and what many feel amounted to dragging Lotters through the mud for standing up when his work was misrepresented and used to further an agenda he didn't support.

So *Silence = Tacit approval*.

Tacit approval = More UsaFrog for longer then any of us should have to endure in my opinion, and I think a few other's.

In the opinion of many of us that amounts to continuing damage done to the hobby as a whole and to the individuals that directly or indirectly are effected by their business practices.... because *THEY DO NOT EXIST IN A VACUUM*. And anyone who thinks they haven't already damaged the hobby is IMO kidding themselves. 

And really even if you are fine with franken frogs, how many other taboos broken, how much disrespect (IMO), and how much incompetence (IMO) should any one company/breeder get away with in this community before we grow some balls and get some standards?

Silence does nothing but let the damage continue unanswered.


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## Dendro Dave

FrogZoo said:


> We don't mix species. The names for the frogs are not names of species. It is a fact, ALL tinctorius are tinctorius and that's it. All auratus are auratus and that's it. All Leucomelas are leucomeals and that's is.
> 
> The names patricia and powder grey... are generic names, and have absolutely no official significance. Everybody knows that and still people want those names to be species names, and overuse the term in hopes people bite.
> 
> I said we don't mix species, and yet there it is you saying we do, as if the varieties, etc. are species which they are not. This is going nowhere. The agenda is clear. Keep hammering the untruth to make it true.
> 
> Villa Nova, New River and Sipaliwini Savannah (AKA True Sip) are generic names for frogs that are tinctorius. Frogs having the exact same appearance are easily produced by combining two dissimilar tinctorius.


*Still behind, but I'll take a stab at that post...*

The hobby community OFFICIALLY seems to care about them, because they help us keep the captive populations straight and ensure that we get a frog that is fairly representative of it's wild counter part. Frankly Boondoggle covered that stuff pretty well I think, and I've haven't seen much in way of a valid counter argument given the concerns/desires of the hobby community. 

That may not be important to you, but it is to us. It is important to people that were here long before you, probably will be long after you, and many of those people are the ones responsible for helping maintain a significant enough captive population of those frogs so they'd be here for someone to use them in franken frog experiments and undermine the integrity of that species, locality, or morph and cause the damage to the greater hobby as a whole that you are now... 

The irony is you only have these separate clearly defined varieties to play with through their efforts, but your efforts in turn undermine the confidence in those frogs integrity, and undermine our future efforts to preserve those populations. And I'm sorry Rick just because you can make a frog that looks like an oyapock, or blue sip out of several other morphs doesn't make it the real deal, especially if the parent varieties you used haven't seen each other in the wild for hundreds or thousands of years... *and that matters to us.* And it isn't your place to reshape the face of the hobby at the direct objections to so many of us. I mean you were straight up warned things would go this, way asked not to do it, and even begged.... and you still did it. How do you justify that lack of respect? ...That it wasn't illegal? That is about the best argument I can think of, but kinda weak moral ground to stand on in my opinion. 

It is also ironic that right now WC in the hobby are mostly new species or morphs, not the ones you work with or that probably even make up the bulk of hobby frogs. So when it becomes hard to find the common CB hobby frogs and have any confidence that they are what we wanted them to be where do you think people will turn to get a real oyapock? ...The wild. *You're conservation angle is dubious, at the most you do no more then any other CB frog breeder, and at worse your efforts will actually lead to more demand for WC frogs.*

We can't actually stop you, all we can do is protest but what you are doing can actually make it less possible for us to do what we've been doing, because we can't have a pure frog if they've all been crossed with others at some point, but you'll always have some frog to mix with some other in the hopes of creating the next fad... and I think that gives us a slight leg up to the moral high ground when the selfish desires of a few can undermine all that came before and allowed them to even have the chance to screw up those frogs for the rest of us at a later date. 


And Rick you did say on your site that you would not mix species or varieties, and after species varieties can only mean localities and/or morphs. Also even if you did qualify that statement at some point with an "at this time" edit... * I remember it being there without that qualification.*

I'm also pretty sure that for you to have had mixed variety frogs on the site as soon as you did after those statements, they would have already have to have been breeding, at least eggs, if not tads in cups or froglets... *So if I'm not mistaken the timeline of events seems to once again call into question your honesty here.*


So anyways one question I'm dying to have answered by you is why anyone should trust you to operate within this hobby or with their money, or even outside of the hobby if that were some how possible while still selling dart frogs? We've seen what many believe to be lies, half truths, wrong information, dragging other breeders, businesses, and one notable scientist through the muck, questionable husbandry (For example: A bunch of tinc morphs jammed into over crowded mediocre viv and declared as a success when they weren't dead 3 months later), sleazy marketing, and a complete and utter lack of respect for the community and it's standards and what we care about... *So after breaking most every hobby taboo short of stealing (If we don't count claiming credit for ideas and intellectual property in the opinion of some) why should I shop USAfrog when they basically told me and almost everyone I know in this hobby to go screw ourselves, bailed on the community and brought upon themselves and the community exactly what we warned them would happen?*


----------



## tardis101

Boondoggle said:


> The base of the argument, as I see it, is that since none of these frogs will ever see the rain forest again it doesn't matter what we do as far as breeding. Those who want frogs as close to location specific examples can have them and those who would like to mix all the colors of the rainbow can do so provided everyone is honest.
> 
> I think that's as strong a case as can be made but it ignores the consistent behavior we've seen among hobbyists. All of the following is absolutely anecdotal, but that's about the best you're going to get on this subject and doesn't necessarily make it worthless. Any time I've seen a specific tinc have it's lineage come into question, it almost immediately becomes much less desirable and people stop breeding them. Less breeding means less available genetics and ends up being the bust in a boom/bust cycle.
> 
> The short version of that is that we've reliably seen in the past (not just that example) that...
> 
> 1) Questionable genetics exacerbates boom/bust cycles, and...
> 
> 2) Boom/bust cycles put greater demand on newer wild-type frogs with "known" genetics which...
> 
> 3) Makes smuggling more profitable due to demand.



I really truncated your quote, hopefully you don't mind. 

I can appreciate anecdotal information. Sometimes it's all we have. Personally I don't think I would take as strong as a position on the subject as some have on anecdotal info, but that's a personal opinion and I can certainly see others taking another perspective. 

Having said that, it seems to come back to the folks in the hobby including the breeders/venders. This forum group is large. Maybe even representing the majority of the individuals in the hobby (I can't say I don't know the general numbers of dart frog enthusiasts either in the US or worldwide). But what I'm getting at is that seeing the mobilization of this group on this topic it would seem to me there is enough influence, if the group chooses to use it, to make changes to the hobby that would reduce (I'm sure not prevent) the higher demand a couple of folks have mentioned here for wild pure morph dart frogs. If the demand is coming from the hobby and we represent the hobby, then we can change it. It seems like we can make sure we aren't subsidizing more wild imports, regardless of mixed morphs or not. It also seems like it would solve the concern of folks not getting what they've paid for even with the production of mixed morphs.


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## epiphytes etc.

tardis101 said:


> Having said that, it seems to come back to the folks in the hobby including the breeders/venders. This forum group is large. Maybe even representing the majority of the individuals in the hobby (I can't say I don't know the general numbers of dart frog enthusiasts either in the US or worldwide). But what I'm getting at is that seeing the mobilization of this group on this topic it would seem to me there is enough influence, if the group chooses to use it, to make changes to the hobby that would reduce (I'm sure not prevent) the higher demand a couple of folks have mentioned here for wild pure morph dart frogs. If the demand is coming from the hobby and we represent the hobby, then we can change it. It seems like we can make sure we aren't subsidizing more wild imports, regardless of mixed morphs or not. It also seems like it would solve the concern of folks not getting what they've paid for even with the production of mixed morphs.


This is simply an incorrect assumption. Dendroboard is a small slice of the hobby demographic. There are ton of old timers who do not participate in the online forums (of which this is not the only one, BTW), there are noobs who haven't discovered this site yet and there are people buying their first darts, right now, on kingsnake.


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## Aldross

epiphytes etc. said:


> This is simply an incorrect assumption. Dendroboard is a small slice of the hobby demographic. There are ton of old timers who do not participate in the online forums (of which this is not the only one, BTW), there are noobs who haven't discovered this site yet and there are people buying their first darts, right now, on kingsnake.


I was in the frog hobby for nearly 2 years before I decided that I wanted to join a forum. I didn't even know this site was here. I just happened to luck out and live in a city where I could buy directly from Nabors so I never had to question my frogs. Granted DFW or whatever was not around at the time. Had it been a couple years later and maybe I didn't leave where I do I could have ended up with mixed lines not knowing the issues and passed those along. That the current state of things. There is a tidal wave of frogs washing through the hobby right now and it gets harder to trust others and buy a frog you are wanting/needing. 
Many times I have seen a frog for a very fair price that I could use in a breeding project but because I do not know the name of the seller or he can't come will a glowing recommendation then I am forces to pass.


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## epiphytes etc.

Yes, me too. I was working with darts for 6 1/2 years before stumbling on this site.


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## edwardsatc

epiphytes etc. said:


> This is simply an incorrect assumption. Dendroboard is a small slice of the hobby demographic. There are ton of old timers who do not participate in the online forums (of which this is not the only one, BTW), there are noobs who haven't discovered this site yet and there are people buying their first darts, right now, on kingsnake.


I couldn't agree more. I've been in this hobby a long time and most of my longtime friends in the hobby left the boards years ago, yet they still maintain their collections, are active in the hobby, and maintain close communication with other froggers. Many of those whom were original members of this board in 2004 are still active froggers, but haven't posted in years. There is a frogger in the midwest with 20 years experience and a very large collection who has never been on these boards. I'm slowly walking away from the boards myself. I get much more out of personal communications than I'll ever get out of these boards.



tardis101 said:


> But what I'm getting at is that seeing the mobilization of this group on this topic it would seem to me there is enough influence, if the group chooses to use it, to make changes to the hobby that would reduce (I'm sure not prevent) the higher demand a couple of folks have mentioned here for wild pure morph dart frogs.


Unfortunately, if you look closely at the USAFrogs threads, you'll see that the number of members that have spoken out is actually a small percentage of the membership here. Most I suspect do not want to get involved, but many just don't give a shit as long as they get the pretty frogs they want. 

Additionally, over the years there have been numerous attempts to mobilize the membership here towards registration and conservation measures ... most I would rate as complete failures.

That said, if you can find a way to develop a consensus and mobilize membership towards the ideas you've put forth, I would certainly be supportive and extend any help I could give.


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## Celtic Aaron

While there are a few, I do not see too many people arguing for hybridizing (between morphs, locales, varieties, etc.) these frogs. Some may be indifferent and do not speak up, but there definitely seems to be a majority that strongly disagree with hybridizing. Does that not mean anything? Does this not constitute an ethical standard for this community? Should ethical standards be followed? What is to be gained by not following the ethical standards of a community?

I think that many people on this board, some of whom are scientists, have laid out very well the possible problems with hybridizing frogs. If people choose to ignore the detailed and scientifically supported reasons against hybridizing frogs, then it comes down to one thing: you want to hybridize frogs simply because you want to. I am not saying there are not problems with the frog hobby as it stands without hybridizing; however, if there are more benefits to keeping the wild lines pure, then why else would we hybridize knowing the potential for problems (mainly with outbreeding depression and increasing demand for future WC imports that may support smuggling)?

I am still waiting for the solid, scientific arguments for hybridizing frogs: To prevent line breeding? To increase the health of the frogs by mixing up the gene pool? To decrease the demand on WC imports? If there is strong evidence out there, please present it and that may change the argument.

While there may be some benefits, the evidence presented to date seems to show that the benefits of hybridizing are not better than the benefits of not hybridizing. Therefore, why hybridize? After weighing that, if the only answer is, "Because I want to" then it is only selfish.

People can do what they want, but it does affect the larger community. The argument that what I do does not affect what you do makes no sense. We all know that actions have an effect on others, however slight or large it may be. Hybridizing frogs affects everyone in the hobby and will only have a greater effect on the hobby as time goes on. It seems to me that hybrid frogs have a greater impact than if it were the other way around. You can always hybridize pure lines, but you can never unhybridize (I am sure that's not a word, but you know what I mean  ) back to pure lines.

At the end of the day, what really boggles my mind is this: these frogs are already so colorful, beautiful, and variable that I see no reason to hybridize. You can find pure line frogs that are red, blue, green, yellow, black, and many variations of all of those.

Edit: I drafted this a few days ago and since that time people have explained that there are many people who are not part of the forums but are active in the hobby. This may change my discussion about "the majority." However, without their input, how can we know what their opinion is? Furthermore, unless other evidence is presented, that does not change that the weight of evidence seems to support not hybridizing.

Thoughts?


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## Ed

Celtic Aaron said:


> I am still waiting for the solid, scientific arguments for hybridizing frogs: To prevent line breeding? To increase the health of the frogs by mixing up the gene pool? To decrease the demand on WC imports? If there is strong evidence out there, please present it and that may change the argument.


When we talk about the possible positives and negatives the presented information against it tends to be the same articles as those more clearly present the potential issues that arise when comparing the differences between inbreeding and outbreeding depression. However the body of literature is much more extensive than that has been presented and it is pretty much a big problem in both captive and wild populations. See for example the issues that occurred here in plants in a greenhouse 
http://www.amjbot.org/content/88/2/258.full 

Impact on Oryx (this is close to what happened in many dendrobatids as the populations are disjunct and separated by distance 
Simultaneous inbreeding and outbreeding depression in reintroduced Arabian oryx - Marshall - 2006 - Animal Conservation - Wiley Online Library

Salmon from the same river but from different lines that return in odd or even years Outbreeding depression in hybrids between odd- and even-broodyear pink salmon 

And I could go on... it is also known from some of the most studied organisms like nematodes that tend to reproduce through self-fertilization (and they also have issues with inbreeding depression) see INBREEDING AND OUTBREEDING DEPRESSION IN CAENORHABDITIS NEMATODES - Dolgin - 2007 - Evolution - Wiley Online Library 

As I noted above it is a problem for both wild and captive populations and can cause extinction of captive populations. Some of the people who argue for hybridization attempt to justify it or argue for it by claiming then what happens in the wild. Its pretty simple, there are natural selection pressures in the wild populations that remove the negative effects allowing the positive effects to remain provided (and this is a huge point) that the level of outcrossing isn't swamping the population. That level of outcrossing tends to be a real problem for the population whether it is in captivity or in the wild. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

A slightly different point I've made before and probably will make again at some point in the future. 

If people really want to make an impact against the marketing of hybrid frogs, then people in the hobby should sell wholesale to vendors to reduce the available market share. If you are doing it as a hobby then it really isn't a hardship to undercut the market prices.... If your trying to do it as a business then it is a real problem as you cannot continue to sell frogs at a loss. 
Its a simple business model...... .

Some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101

Ed said:


> When we talk about the possible positives and negatives the presented information against it tends to be the same articles as those more clearly present the potential issues that arise when comparing the differences between inbreeding and outbreeding depression. However the body of literature is much more extensive than that has been presented and it is pretty much a big problem in both captive and wild populations. See for example the issues that occurred here in plants in a greenhouse
> Nonlocal transplantation and outbreeding depression in the subshrub Lotus scoparius (Fabaceae)
> 
> Impact on Oryx (this is close to what happened in many dendrobatids as the populations are disjunct and separated by distance
> Simultaneous inbreeding and outbreeding depression in reintroduced Arabian oryx - Marshall - 2006 - Animal Conservation - Wiley Online Library
> 
> Salmon from the same river but from different lines that return in odd or even years Outbreeding depression in hybrids between odd- and even-broodyear pink salmon
> 
> And I could go on... it is also known from some of the most studied organisms like nematodes that tend to reproduce through self-fertilization (and they also have issues with inbreeding depression) see INBREEDING AND OUTBREEDING DEPRESSION IN CAENORHABDITIS NEMATODES - Dolgin - 2007 - Evolution - Wiley Online Library
> 
> As I noted above it is a problem for both wild and captive populations and can cause extinction of captive populations. Some of the people who argue for hybridization attempt to justify it or argue for it by claiming then what happens in the wild. Its pretty simple, there are natural selection pressures in the wild populations that remove the negative effects allowing the positive effects to remain provided (and this is a huge point) that the level of outcrossing isn't swamping the population. That level of outcrossing tends to be a real problem for the population whether it is in captivity or in the wild.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


The links you provided are about issues with crossing and then returning to wild populations. We've already established that's not going to happen. This whole argument has nothing to do with wild populations. The only anecdotal argument provided was that it might increase a demand for wild caught pure morph frogs, which I think is a fair point. 

I have seen zero scientific literature that would support a conclusion that mixing morphs of frogs in the pet hobby has a negative impact on the health or well being of other hobby frogs. I see a lot of opinions. Which is fine. I'm not here to say someone has to have the same opinion as me (or vice versa). But folks keeps saying there is science behind not mixing morphs, but I haven't seen it. If I've missed the science by all means please point me in the right direction. But when I say science I mean literature in peer reviewed scientific journals. Not a book that an expert wrote. Not an opinion letter from an exporter (phd or not). 

It's already been pointed out that this forum represents a small minority of the overall dart frog hobby. I wouldn't call that an ethical standard. Use of the word ethics also suggests there is a right and wrong. But again I don't see that here. I see one set of opinions vs another.


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## allegedhuman

tardis101 said:


> The links you provided are about issues with crossing and then returning to wild populations. We've already established that's not going to happen. This whole argument has nothing to do with wild populations. The only anecdotal argument provided was that it might increase a demand for wild caught pure morph frogs, which I think is a fair point.
> 
> I have seen zero scientific literature that would support a conclusion that mixing morphs of frogs in the pet hobby has a negative impact on the health or well being of other hobby frogs. I see a lot of opinions. Which is fine. I'm not here to say someone has to have the same opinion as me (or vice versa). But folks keeps saying there is science behind not mixing morphs, but I haven't seen it. If I've missed the science by all means please point me in the right direction. But when I say science I mean literature in peer reviewed scientific journals. Not a book that an expert wrote. Not an opinion letter from an exporter (phd or not).
> 
> It's already been pointed out that this forum represents a small minority of the overall dart frog hobby. I wouldn't call that an ethical standard. Use of the word ethics also suggests there is a right and wrong. But again I don't see that here. I see one set of opinions vs another.


Actually the example Ed gave about the nematodes doesn’t involve returning them to wild and has nothing to do with reintroduction, just like with frogs too.

The different worm populations were originally obtained from the wild and then bred for several generations, reared and tested in laboratory conditions and it is under laboratory condition that they determined detrimental outbreeding depression. So this example of raising the worms in the lab in little plates and dishes that would be analogous to wild caught frog populations being mixed and cross-bred in captivity but never put back into a “real” habitat other than our terrariums in captivity. 

Do you feel the scientific ethics behind mixing or not mixing populations and morphs is “iffy” or simply up to opinion because there is not an exact example in dart frogs? Otherwise, the nematode example is an example of negative results of outbreeding distinct populations in captive environments that is published in a peer-reviewed journal. 

On a more general level though, if we are discussing ethics and right or wrong I don’t think anyone could dispute that the business ethics, plagiarism, libel, defamation of character, etc., displayed by FrogUSA could ever be considered appropriate or acceptable for any company, even for companies that were promoting proper factual/scientific beliefs.


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## tardis101

allegedhuman said:


> Actually the example Ed gave about the nematodes doesn’t involve returning them to wild and has nothing to do with reintroduction, just like with frogs too.
> 
> The different worm populations were originally obtained from the wild and then bred for several generations, reared and tested in laboratory conditions and it is under laboratory condition that they determined detrimental outbreeding depression. So this example of raising the worms in the lab in little plates and dishes that would be analogous to wild caught frog populations being mixed and cross-bred in captivity but never put back into a “real” habitat other than our terrariums in captivity.
> 
> Do you feel the scientific ethics behind mixing or not mixing populations and morphs is “iffy” or simply up to opinion because there is not an exact example in dart frogs? Otherwise, the nematode example is an example of negative results of outbreeding distinct populations in captive environments that is published in a peer-reviewed journal.
> 
> On a more general level though, if we are discussing ethics and right or wrong I don’t think anyone could dispute that the business ethics, plagiarism, libel, defamation of character, etc., displayed by FrogUSA could ever be considered appropriate or acceptable for any company, even for companies that were promoting proper factual/scientific beliefs.


Drawing any conclusion about vertebrate population genetics and possible inbreeding or outbreeding depression from a study of an invertebrate is speculative at best. It might lead someone to the question, of hey this is an issue in nematodes, maybe it's an issue in dart frogs, but the next step would be to design a study to test that hypothesis. To my knowledge that hasn't been done. While there are dart frog genetic studies (including one where Dr. Lotters is a coauthor and it's on d. tincs), i'm not aware of one looking at whether outbreeding depression in captive dart frog populations is a potential issue. 

As I've already said I don't think mixing morphs of captive pet dart frogs is an ethics issue at all. My opinion is that it's a matter of opinion. I personally don't do it, but I don't see anything wrong with someone else doing it.


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## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> Drawing any conclusion about vertebrate population genetics and possible inbreeding or outbreeding depression from a study of an invertebrate is speculative at best. It might lead someone to the question, of hey this is an issue in nematodes, maybe it's an issue in dart frogs, but the next step would be to design a study to test that hypothesis. To my knowledge that hasn't been done. While there are dart frog genetic studies (including one where Dr. Lotters is a coauthor and it's on d. tincs), i'm not aware of one looking at whether outbreeding depression in captive dart frog populations is a potential issue.
> 
> As I've already said I don't think mixing morphs of captive pet dart frogs is an ethics issue at all. My opinion is that it's a matter of opinion. I personally don't do it, but I don't see anything wrong with someone else doing it.


Leaving aside the conversation of how the practice might be putting pressure on wild populations of species that may be threatened to endangered, how is the topic of the husbandry of ANY animal species not an ethics issue? Unilaterally declaring that there is no definitive proof before there is definitive proof that outbreeding depression does not occur does not mean that outbreeding depression actually does not occur, and does not relieve the caretaker of the ethical ramifications that their practices have had on their living charges if it turns out that the practice is indeed deleterious to their health.


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> The links you provided are about issues with crossing and then returning to wild populations. We've already established that's not going to happen. This whole argument has nothing to do with wild populations. The only anecdotal argument provided was that it might increase a demand for wild caught pure morph frogs, which I think is a fair point.


So your attempting to argue that the process of outbreeding depression in captive populations does not follow the same process as populations in the wild? If that is your argument I would love to see the data supporting your belief.... Or are you arguing that outbreeding depression doesn't occur in captive population? Again, I'd love to see the data that supports that claim. 



tardis101 said:


> I have seen zero scientific literature that would support a conclusion that mixing morphs of frogs in the pet hobby has a negative impact on the health or well being of other hobby frogs. I see a lot of opinions. Which is fine. I'm not here to say someone has to have the same opinion as me (or vice versa). But folks keeps saying there is science behind not mixing morphs, but I haven't seen it. If I've missed the science by all means please point me in the right direction. But when I say science I mean literature in peer reviewed scientific journals. Not a book that an expert wrote. Not an opinion letter from an exporter (phd or not).


And you've provided no proof that there isn't a risk to the captive populations through things like outbreeding depression. All you've done is make generalistic statements that have no support. An example was the repeated attempts to claim that the dendrobatid hobby wasn't as advanced as other pet sectors. 



tardis101 said:


> It's already been pointed out that this forum represents a small minority of the overall dart frog hobby. I wouldn't call that an ethical standard. Use of the word ethics also suggests there is a right and wrong. But again I don't see that here. I see one set of opinions vs another.


When did ethical standards have to do with numbers? You do realize that even though you've attempted to couch these statements as opinions, you have made statements that aren't supported by the facts. As an example of your ethical standards above. 

You made a bunch of claims as to experience to add weight to your claims. How about ponying up on those claims. What institutions and endangered programs do you work for? I'm very curious. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> Drawing any conclusion about vertebrate population genetics and possible inbreeding or outbreeding depression from a study of an invertebrate is speculative at best. It might lead someone to the question, of hey this is an issue in nematodes, maybe it's an issue in dart frogs, but the next step would be to design a study to test that hypothesis.


Your really skating along a thin edge here. Your making a claim that outbreeding and inbreeding depression works differently in different taxa and that isn't supported by the literature. If it was as without merit as you claim then you would not be able to base whole studies on it. See for example 

Lynch, M. (1991). The genetic interpretation of inbreeding depression and outbreeding depression. Evolution, 622-629.

*These are fundamental issues for population management of both captive and wild populations *so I'm more than a little surprised that your attempting to dismiss it in this manner. 

I have to admit the continual attempts to include facts as opinions is an issue. An opinion that includes facts is not an opinion and as such it is open to being wrong. See for example Yes, Your Opinion Can Be Wrong | Houston Press as it does a good job of putting it in perspective. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101

You are suggesting I'm making negative claims against the points being discussed here. I am not. I'm simply saying there is no evidence to support the position being taken.

I'm not saying outbreeding depression isn't an issue. It might be. What I'm saying there is no evidence to support the conclusion that there is in dart frogs. Science doesn't prove the non existence of something. Asking me to prove my point suggests a lack of understanding the basic scientific method. I'm not trying to prove any position. Quiet the opposite actually. I'm saying if one is going to take the position and say there is a problem with mixed morph frogs then one needs to provide evidence to support that position. In the absence of supportive information I'm not going to take the apparent default position that there is a problem.


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## tardis101

Here's a good info graphic regarding the increasing strength of evidence.


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## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> Here's a good info graphic regarding the increasing strength of evidence.


You do realize that the second entry on that list (using research/observations in non-human species to make predictions about human beings) is exactly the same as using the research in other species to predict that outbreeding depression should occur in dart frogs, right? There is a study in Rana temporaria showing outbreeding depression. Your own graphic puts the lie to your statement that there is NO evidence. If you're going to claim to be a proponent of the scientific method, then don't misrepresent your data. You would need to provide evidence that outbreeding depression does not occur in dart frogs before you can discount that evidence out of hand. 

That study represents stronger evidence than what you're providing, which would charitably be merely anecdotal evidence.


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## srrrio

Following Ed's interest in your background .. I am curious as well, and do you have a name Tardis101? 

Their site(s) info has certainly been based on nothing but their opinion.. and that is being charitable. So much of the information has been fairy tale babble that is ONLY geared to sell frogs. The only credible source they cited was Dr. Lotters, which was so horribly misrepresented he asked them to stop. 

If anyone truly reads both of the Dartfrog Wharehouse threads (long and painful as it is) All their misinformation had been pointed out .. again and again by people far more eloquent, knowledgeable, and dedicated then I.
How can someone defend this company!

I shudder as to what will ultimately happen to the "thousands "frogs they have bred...

Also because DW has often accused the participants of this thread of having some sort of agenda. I have never made a profit selling frogs and don't expect to (although certainly don't mind if others do!). I believe conservation of poison dart frogs is best done thorough education and cash donations, or purchase of products from non profits or businesses who's missions are clear. I love my dart frogs and enjoy other people that share that love.


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## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> Here's a good info graphic regarding the increasing strength of evidence.


Evidence has been provided by many people on the board. Numerous peer-reviewed studies have been posted on this thread. In addition, anecdotal evidence has been provided by many biologists/zoologists/experts. However, if you have evidence that supports your claim, we would like to see it. 

I fully believe that this is an ethics issue. Captive husbandry of poison dart frogs will always be an ethics issue because the lives of these animals are at stake, and many believe that we should do all we can to properly care for these animals and give them the best possible quality of life in captivity. If mixing frogs had negative effects, then, ethically speaking, we should not mix species/varieties/locals/morphs/etc.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Celtic Aaron

tardis101 said:


> Drawing any conclusion about vertebrate population genetics and possible inbreeding or outbreeding depression from a study of an invertebrate is speculative at best. It might lead someone to the question, of hey this is an issue in nematodes, maybe it's an issue in dart frogs, but the next step would be to design a study to test that hypothesis. To my knowledge that hasn't been done. While there are dart frog genetic studies (including one where Dr. Lotters is a coauthor and it's on d. tincs), i'm not aware of one looking at whether outbreeding depression in captive dart frog populations is a potential issue.
> 
> As I've already said I don't think mixing morphs of captive pet dart frogs is an ethics issue at all. My opinion is that it's a matter of opinion. I personally don't do it, but I don't see anything wrong with someone else doing it.


Mixing morphs is different than hybridizing. I hope that we can all agree on that. Do you see hybridizing as an ethical issue (one of right and wrong) or is it simply an issue of some do and some don't? I am guessing that you do not see hybridizing as an issue of right or wrong based on your other posts, correct? Are there any ethical issues with the keeping of dart frogs that you are willing to share? What would you consider ethical and unethical with regards to the keeping of dart frogs?


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## phender

Celtic Aaron said:


> Mixing morphs is different than hybridizing. I hope that we can all agree on that. ………


Actually no, we can''t agree on that. Just like Mendel crossing a red flowered pea plant with a white flowered pea plant created a hybrid, mixing morphs would be considered hybridizing as well.


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## Celtic Aaron

phender said:


> Actually no, we can''t agree on that. Just like Mendel crossing a red flowered pea plant with a white flowered pea plant created a hybrid, mixing morphs would be considered hybridizing as well.


Sorry for the confusion. Maybe I am looking at it wrong...mixing morphs may have two meanings: housing different morphs together or hybridizing; There is a discussion going on right now about mixing morphs as simply housing different morphs together into one vivarium. The other meaning could also be hybridizing; however, I was looking at it in terms of simply putting different morphs together in one enclosure. This could lead to hybridizing, but is distinctly different than allowing cross breeding, in my opinion.


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## edwardsatc

The statement in parantheses dumbfounds me every time I read it:



USAFrog.com website said:


> Our FROGMATCH™ software takes the guesswork out of colorful frog groupings. Using our proprietary FROGMATCH™ selection program and links you can always put together a compatible grouping of differently colored and patterned frogs of the same species. *(Please note: Other sellers warn of the aggressiveness and group incompatibility of their frogs. Thus, our FROGMATCH grouping recommendations are NEVER intended for frogs from any other source.)*
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


Are we supposed to believe that they've genetically manipulated their frogs or found some husbandry method that makes frogs less prone to aggression than those produced by other breeders?

Do they give their "thousands" of little froggies aggression counseling?

Frog psychiatrist?

Of course we know the real answer ... obviously, it must be hypnotism.


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## AbeV

"WE PUT TOGETHER THE FROGMATCH SOFTWARE TO HELP YOU BUILD THAT BEAUTIFUL FROG GROUPING FOR THE ENJOYMENT AND HARMONY THROUGHOUT THEIR ENTIRE LIFE!

We start by breeding only the best, most social, secure, active and friendly frog lines, 100% pure to the species and variety they represent. We then raise the offspring in social group settings and while each frog is different, we have a ton of breeding data that shows which of our frogs are capable of being "BFF" (Best Friend Frogs). In addition, because we raise our frogs in social groups and tend to them carefully and continuously, our proprietary FROGMATCH™ criteria is ONLY recommended for USA Frogs.*Our FROGMATCH compatibility is*NOT recommended for frogs sold by any other seller, or poison dart frogs, and any seller that warns their frogs exhbibit antisocial behavior or fight.*"

I must have browsed their website a hundred times but I don't think I've ever seen that quote. This goes back to one of my main issues regarding their business practices. They're misleading people but at the same time they're not. It's all sales tactics. There's more information on their site trying to explain/defend/sell themselves rather than useful information about frogs. 

They might as well say ..............

Using our "special software" we house all of our froglets together so they can become "super friends". All other frogs not bred by us are born unsocialized and evil. Do not buy from one of the thousands of other breeders that separate their frogs."



Are we supposed to believe that they've genetically manipulated their frogs or found some husbandry method that makes frogs less prone to aggression than those produced by other breeders?

Do they give their "thousands" of little froggies aggression counseling?

Frog psychiatrist?

Of course we know the real answer ... obviously, it must be hypnotism. 

[/QUOTE]

Or maybe a sedative in the misting water?


Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## Tzunu'un

> We start by breeding only the best, most social, secure, active and friendly frog lines, 100% pure to the species and variety they represent.
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


They have established these "best, most social, secure, active and friendly frog lines" in a little over 2 years? .... all within 1-2 generations ? 




> We then raise the offspring in social group settings and while each frog is different, we have a ton of breeding data that shows which of our frogs are capable of being "BFF" (Best Friend Frogs).
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


It begs one to ask what is the fate of the "black sheep" frogs....the nonconformists, the loners, the ones not capable of being "BFF" ?

Froggy jail or worse ? ........ Oh perhaps these are shipped off wholesale to retailers and thus aren't their frogs?
(you know, like the aggressive difficult type everyone else has )


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## Boondoggle

AbeV said:


> "WE PUT TOGETHER THE FROGMATCH SOFTWARE TO HELP YOU BUILD THAT BEAUTIFUL FROG GROUPING FOR THE ENJOYMENT AND HARMONY THROUGHOUT THEIR ENTIRE LIFE!
> 
> We start by breeding only the best, most social, secure, active and friendly frog lines, 100% pure to the species and variety they represent. We then raise the offspring in social group settings and while each frog is different, we have a ton of breeding data that shows which of our frogs are capable of being "BFF" (Best Friend Frogs). In addition, because we raise our frogs in social groups and tend to them carefully and continuously, our proprietary FROGMATCH™ criteria is ONLY recommended for USA Frogs.*Our FROGMATCH compatibility is*NOT recommended for frogs sold by any other seller, or poison dart frogs, and any seller that warns their frogs exhbibit antisocial behavior or fight.*"


It actually makes me happy that they make claims like this. I try to look at this through the mindset I had when I was 11-years-old (who I believe, along with pet stores, are their targeted demographic) and even then, this would have sounded alarms for me. They've cracked the code on froggy friendship and selective bred frogs that are kind and thoughtful, somehow from the get-go? Everyone else's frogs are antisocial? That's the problem when you preach the agenda and try to tailor facts to support it. You lose perspective over whats a lie and what's a silly lie. 

As far as frogs that exhibit antisocial behavior...The first rule of Froggy Fight Club, you don't talk about Froggy Fight Club.


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## SwampMan

"My husband and I were frankly a little worried when our little Brennan's d.auratus started moping around it's vivarium all day. We tried other frog dating services with no hopes of pulling the little guy out of his slump. Then we found FrogMatch..."


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## tardis101

Calivet said:


> You do realize that the second entry on that list (using research/observations in non-human species to make predictions about human beings) is exactly the same as using the research in other species to predict that outbreeding depression should occur in dart frogs, right? There is a study in Rana temporaria showing outbreeding depression. Your own graphic puts the lie to your statement that there is NO evidence. If you're going to claim to be a proponent of the scientific method, then don't misrepresent your data. You would need to provide evidence that outbreeding depression does not occur in dart frogs before you can discount that evidence out of hand.
> 
> That study represents stronger evidence than what you're providing, which would charitably be merely anecdotal evidence.


You do realize that the picture was for info only regarding the relative weight one should provide on various scientific evidence? I agree with you some animal models do provide insight into others. It's why researches often use rats initially for human research. 

I didn't say there is NO evidence (but thanks for saying I lied- that was nice of you). I said, in my opinion, there is insufficient scientific evidence to support the position that a mixed morph frog is a problem (either to wild or captive populations). And again (I've said this more than once also) I am not saying there isn't a problem. There might be, but again my opinion is the information put forth doesn't support that conclusion. 

The idea that crossing frogs of different morphs (or locals) has a detrimental effect to captive populations is a hypothesis that has not been tested. As a result there is no direct scientific data to support it. In the absence of data (or information of suffice quality) to support the hypothesis, then the null hypothesis can't be rejected. In this case the null hypothesis would be that crossing frogs of different morphs (or locals) does NOT have a detrimental effect to captive populations. That is a basic tenant of scientific research. It's not then my duty to provide evidence to support the null hypothesis.



brendan0923 said:


> Evidence has been provided by many people on the board. Numerous peer-reviewed studies have been posted on this thread. In addition, anecdotal evidence has been provided by many biologists/zoologists/experts. However, if you have evidence that supports your claim, we would like to see it.


What peer reviewed studies are you speaking of? Regarding your last two sentences, see my responses above.



srrrio said:


> Following Ed's interest in your background .. I am curious as well, and do you have a name Tardis101?


Hi Sally, my name is Mike (thanks for asking; I think you're the first one ). I gave as much background info regarding myself as I plan to do on a public forum in post number #1990.  ...actually I take that back, I think I also mentioned I've worked at a couple zoos doing research.


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## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> What peer reviewed studies are you speaking of? Regarding your last two sentences, see my responses above.


Here's one study (though I'm not sure it was posted on this thread), that discusses decreased fitness in hybrid offspring of Chamaecrista fasciculata: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...S50Cy4&usg=AFQjCNGb7SM2zeQJCoIr9VVsX1v71ZX1EQ

Evidence, though it may be scarce, shows that outbreeding depression is a real thing across several species. There is evidence to support hybrid vigor, but there is also evidencd that later generation hybrids may not fare as well long-term.

I know that this is a plant species, but doesn't this at least show that hybridizing frogs is an ethical issue and not merely a matter of opinion? Does this not warrant at least some concern as to the possibilities of negative effects of hybridizing species of dendrobatids?

Now you may think that this data is insufficient and/or irrelevant because the study was not conducted on dart frogs, fine. There may be more evidence for outbreeding depression in poison dart frogs, but I don't have it so I will not argue it. Regardless, these studies and expert opinions alone are enough for me to err on the side of caution and not throw caution to the wind, and discovering after it's too late that what we have been doing is wrong. I have yet to see sufficient evidence that outweighs the possible negatives of hybridization in poison dart frogs, so I and many others, will believe it is wrong until proven otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## tardis101

brendan0923 said:


> Here's one study (though I'm not sure it was posted on this thread), that discusses decreased fitness in hybrid offspring of Chamaecrista fasciculata: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...S50Cy4&usg=AFQjCNGb7SM2zeQJCoIr9VVsX1v71ZX1EQ
> 
> Evidence, though it may be scarce, shows that outbreeding depression is a real thing across several species.
> 
> I know that this is a plant species, but doesn't this at least show that hybridizing frogs is an ethical issue and not merely a matter of opinion? Does this not warrant at least some concern as to the possibilities of negative effects of hybridizing species of dendrobatids?
> 
> Now you may think that this data is insufficient and/or irrelevant because the study was not conducted on dart frogs, fine. There may be more evidence for outbreeding depression in poison dart frogs, but I don't have it so I will not argue it. Regardless, these studies and expert opinions alone are enough for me to err on the side of caution and not throw caution to the wind, and discovering after it's too late that what we have been doing is wrong. I have yet to see sufficient evidence that outweighs the possible negatives of hybridization in poison dart frogs, so I and many others, will believe it is wrong until proven otherwise.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


It's almost amazing to me that folks keeps twisting statements and turning them into something that hasn't been said.  I didn't say inbreeding depression isn't real across some populations of some species.

So the argument has gone from it causes increases in wild caught frogs (thus depleting wild populations), to inbreeding depression, to an ethics issue regarding husbandry of captive frogs? And no that paper doesn't lead me to believe it's an ethics issue. But you are certainly welcome to believe whatever you want.

And for the record we aren't talking about hybridization. That term is well defined by geneticists. We're talking about crossing the same species (not even a subspecies) of frog but different populations of them. If you'd like for me to double check on a geneticist's definition of a hybrid, I'll ask a co-worker of mine who is a geneticist, teaches genetics in the UC university system, and is also an endangered species biologist (he specializes in captive propagation for the recovery of endangered species - salamanders, butterflies, plants, and most recently crayfish).


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## epiphytes etc.

Oh, so when I bought some hybrid tomato seeds at the garden center the other day they were in fact a hybrid of two different tomato species?


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## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> You do realize that the picture was for info only regarding the relative weight one should provide on various scientific evidence? I agree with you some animal models do provide insight into others. It's why researches often use rats initially for human research.
> 
> *I didn't say there is NO evidence *(but thanks for saying I lied- that was nice of you). I said, in my opinion, there is insufficient scientific evidence to support the position that a mixed morph frog is a problem (either to wild or captive populations). And again (I've said this more than once also) I am not saying there isn't a problem. There might be, but again my opinion is the information put forth doesn't support that conclusion.
> 
> The idea that crossing frogs of different morphs (or locals) has a detrimental effect to captive populations is a hypothesis that has not been tested. As a result there is no direct scientific data to support it. In the absence of data (or information of suffice quality) to support the hypothesis, then the null hypothesis can't be rejected. In this case the null hypothesis would be that crossing frogs of different morphs (or locals) does NOT have a detrimental effect to captive populations. That is a basic tenant of scientific research. It's not then my duty to provide evidence to support the null hypothesis.
> 
> 
> 
> What peer reviewed studies are you speaking of? Regarding your last two sentences, see my responses above.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Sally, my name is Mike (thanks for asking; I think you're the first one ). I gave as much background info regarding myself as I plan to do on a public forum in post number #1990.  ...actually I take that back, I think I also mentioned I've worked at a couple zoos doing research.





tardis101 said:


> You are suggesting I'm making negative claims against the points being discussed here. I am not. *I'm simply saying there is no evidence to support the position being taken.*
> 
> I'm not saying outbreeding depression isn't an issue. It might be. *What I'm saying there is no evidence to support the conclusion that there is in dart frogs*. Science doesn't prove the non existence of something. Asking me to prove my point suggests a lack of understanding the basic scientific method. I'm not trying to prove any position. Quiet the opposite actually. I'm saying if one is going to take the position and say there is a problem with mixed morph frogs then one needs to provide evidence to support that position. In the absence of supportive information I'm not going to take the apparent default position that there is a problem.


Yes. You did say that. 

And it's a completely incorrect statement. There is direct scientific evidence that outbreeding depression can absolutely occur in mutilple vertebrate species. Dart frogs are vertebrates. There is evidence that frogs have outbreeding depression dart frogs are frogs. That IS evidence. It is weak evidence, but it is evidence. To hold to the theory that it is more likely than not that dart frogs do not have outbreeding depression, a logical mind would have to provide studies that show that outbreeding depression does not occur in other (preferably frog) species. Which may exist, but you can do your own homework. You can't say your position is the correct one with literally no data to support it and expect the same degree of authority. 

There is nothing magical about a population being wild or captive. It's about being genetically distinct. The "captive population" thing is a red herring. The issue is genetic similarity/dissimilarity, not where they live. 

To truly prove your null hypothesis, EVERY genetically distinct tinctorius morph would have to be crossed with EVERY other genetically distinct tinctorius morph. Which isn't reasonable. Which is why that chart exists, because for most things it is never possible to truly disprove the null hypothesis, and varying strengths of evidence are used to provide evidence for or against the theory being tested. 

If you want to say that outbreeding depression has not been definitively proven to be an issue in dart frogs then you are 100% correct. If you want to say that in your opinion there isn't SUFFICIENT evidence to prove it's an issue in dart frogs that's also fair. If you want to say that there is no evidence that outbreeding depression occurs in dart frogs (which, again, is what you actually said) and that it is a scientifically tenable position to say that people should be able to hybridize with no concerns then you aren't following the scientific method at all, and should stop using it to justify your position. Evidence always trumps no evidence, which is what you're providing. 

These are living creatures. Any discussion regarding their husbandry is an ethical discussion. Ethics says that the prudent position is to err on the side of caution if evidence indicates that a practice may be deleterious to their health, and that evidence does exist. It does not have to be definitive when lives are at stake, and the practice in question boils down to no more weighty an issue than "I want to", especially when the "I want to" camp has exponentially less evidence that what it's doing isn't harmful.


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## tardis101

Calivet said:


> Yes. You did say that.
> 
> And it's a completely incorrect statement. There is direct scientific evidence that outbreeding depression can absolutely occur in mutilple vertebrate species. Dart frogs are vertebrates. There is evidence that frogs have outbreeding depression dart frogs are frogs. That IS evidence. It is weak evidence, but it is evidence. To hold to the theory that it is more likely than not that dart frogs do not have outbreeding depression, a logical mind would have to provide studies that show that outbreeding depression does not occur in other (preferably frog) species. Which may exist, but you can do your own homework. You can't say your position is the correct one with literally no data to support it and expect the same degree of authority.
> 
> There is nothing magical about a population being wild or captive. It's about being genetically distinct. The "captive population" thing is a red herring. The issue is genetic similarity/dissimilarity, not where they live.
> 
> To truly prove your null hypothesis, EVERY genetically distinct tinctorius morph would have to be crossed with EVERY other genetically distinct tinctorius morph. Which isn't reasonable. Which is why that chart exists, because for most things it is never possible to truly disprove the null hypothesis, and varying strengths of evidence are used to provide evidence for or against the theory being tested.
> 
> If you want to say that outbreeding depression has not been definitively proven to be an issue in dart frogs then you are 100% correct. If you want to say that in your opinion there isn't SUFFICIENT evidence to prove it's an issue in dart frogs that's also fair. If you want to say that there is no evidence that outbreeding depression occurs in dart frogs (which, again, is what you actually said) and that it is a scientifically tenable position to say that people should be able to hybridize with no concerns then you aren't following the scientific method at all, and should stop using it to justify your position. Evidence always trumps no evidence, which is what you're providing.
> 
> These are living creatures. Any discussion regarding their husbandry is an ethical discussion. Ethics says that the prudent position is to err on the side of caution if evidence indicates that a practice may be deleterious to their health, and that evidence does exist. It does not have to be definitive when lives are at stake, and the practice in question boils down to no more weighty an issue than "I want to", especially when the "I want to" camp has exponentially less evidence that what it's doing isn't harmful.


If you want to say it's an ethics issue go ahead. You can stand by that because it doesn't need any proof, or data, or anything. It's an opinion. Which is what I think this whole issue is about. Whether folks think crossing morphs is ok or not. 

And yes, I made a mistake in my last post. That was my bad and I admit when I make a mistake. I meant to say (again) there isn't sufficient evidence to warrant the conclusion. Although I will stick with there is no direct evidence for inbreeding depression in dart frogs.


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## tardis101

epiphytes etc. said:


> Oh, so when I bought some hybrid tomato seeds at the garden center the other day they were in fact a hybrid of two different tomato species?


In the fields of biology and population genetics that's what a hybrid is, the crossing of two different species (or when you cross two subspecies). But when we're talking about one morph of d. tinc vs another then morph of d. tinc then no it's not a hybrid because they are the same species, just different populations. A cross between an auratus and tinc would be a hybrid. But I'm not talking about that. I've been talking about mixed morphs of the same species. I probably should have clarified that in my original post. So that's my bad.


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## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> It's almost amazing to me that folks keeps twisting statements and turning them into something that hasn't been said.  I didn't say inbreeding depression isn't real across some populations of some species.
> 
> So the argument has gone from it causes increases in wild caught frogs (thus depleting wild populations), to inbreeding depression, to an ethics issue regarding husbandry of captive frogs? And no that paper doesn't lead me to believe it's an ethics issue. But you are certainly welcome to believe whatever you want.
> 
> And for the record we aren't talking about hybridization. That term is well defined by geneticists. We're talking about crossing the same species (not even a subspecies) of frog but different populations of them. If you'd like for me to double check on a geneticist's definition of a hybrid, I'll ask a co-worker of mine who is a geneticist, teaches genetics in the UC university system, and is also an endangered species biologist (he specializes in captive propagation for the recovery of endangered species - salamanders, butterflies, plants, and most recently crayfish).


Yes, I believe you did say that. Or at least that there is not evidence to support it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm picking up.

Why is it not an eithics issue then? What is ethical and unethical in captive husbandry of dart frogs? Any topic concerning the captive care of living animals is an ethics issue. They are not toys. I shouldn't just do whatever I want with them because I feel like it. Now maybe it is selfish itself to keep these frogs in little glass boxes. But does that mean we should just throw all caution to the wind and do whatever we want to these frogs?

I'm sure your friend knows a lot more than me, I'm just some kid in highscool.  But to my knowledge, it is considered hybridizing. And I know I said this before in this thread, but these "morphs" of frogs have been geographically isolated for thousands of years, evolving different traits and characteristics overtime. Some may even be completley different species. I'll let the geneticists and taxonomists figure all that out, but as far as I and many others are concerned, there is no reason to breed these frogs when there could be potential issues with doing so. This seems unethical and irresponsible in my eyes, but hey, I could be completley wrong. 

Unless you provide at least some evidence that outbreeding depression is not an issue in dart frogs, we will continue to believe that it is an issue due to the evidence that supports it.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## epiphytes etc.

tardis101 said:


> In the fields of biology and population genetics that's what a hybrid is, the crossing of two different species (or when you cross two subspecies). But when we're talking about one morph of d. tinc vs another then morph of d. tinc then no it's not a hybrid because they are the same species, just different populations. A cross between an auratus and tinc would be a hybrid. But I'm not talking about that. I've been talking about mixed morphs of the same species. I probably should have clarified that in my original post. So that's my bad.





> A hybrid is something different entirely. If you have two populations that are quite different, it may still be possible to interbreed them and create an individual that has traits of both. For example, horses and donkeys are closely related but different species, but it is possible to breed them together to create a mule.
> 
> It is possible to make hybrids on many different scales - for example, a golden retriever and a black Labrador are two breeds of dogs, but the mutt that you could get by breeding them together is quite capable of having puppies itself, whereas a mule is sterile. But the mutt is a hybrid, because it's neither breed of its parents, but a mixture of both. (if you're wondering what such a dog would look like, imagine a golden retriever that has been dipped in black ink. Now, you can test your understanding of recessive versus dominant traits if you can say which alleles for hair length and hair color are dominant and recessive, respectively!)


UCSB Science Line



> The second meaning of "hybrid" is crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars of a single species


http://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/hybrid.htm


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## tardis101

epiphytes etc. said:


> UCSB Science Line
> 
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/hybrid.htm


Hybrid has apparently taken on a wider definition since I took genetics 20 years ago. What it means appears to depend on what field one is in.

Definition
noun, plural form: hybrids
(general) Any of mixed origin or composition, or the combination of two or more different things.

(biology) An offspring resulting from the cross between parents of different species or sub-species.

(molecular biology) A complex formed by joining two complementary strands of nucleic acids.
Source: Hybrid - Biology-Online Dictionary

The quote from sciencedaily was incomplete. Here is the full definition they provided (which also appears to have more than one meaning):

Hybrid
In biology, hybrid has two meanings.
The first meaning is the result of interbreeding between two animals or plants of different taxa. 

Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses.

Hybrids between different sub-species within a species are known as intra-specific hybrids.

Hybrids between different genera are sometimes known as intergeneric hybrids.

Extremely rare interfamilial hybrids have been known to occur (such as the guineafowl hybrids).

The second meaning of "hybrid" is crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars of a single species.

This second meaning is often used in plant and animal breeding.

So I'll stand corrected on that. It has a broader meaning than what I remembered.


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## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> If you want to say it's an ethics issue go ahead. You can stand by that because it doesn't need any proof, or data, or anything. It's an opinion. Which is what I think this whole issue is about. Whether folks think crossing morphs is ok or not.
> 
> And yes, I made a mistake in my last post. That was my bad and I admit when I make a mistake. I meant to say (again) there isn't sufficient evidence to warrant the conclusion. Although I will stick with there is no direct evidence for inbreeding depression in dart frogs.


Is your position then that animal husbandry involves no ethical considerations? 

That is the only way you can reduce this conversation to "it's only opinion". How animals are bred and the ramifications of said breeding is part of animal husbandry. There are ethical considerations implicit in the term "animal husbandry". The only way this is not an ethics discussion is if you feel that there are no ethical concerns in keeping animals. It's not even a debate. 

The discussion isn't about whether crossing morphs is "ok". It is about which practices are healthiest long term for the animals in captivity (and which practices will lead to the least impact on wild populations). It's about whether the current research provides evidence that mixing is beneficial, or at least harmless, to the organism in question, or whether it is deleterious. Evidence has been provided that indicates that there is enough reason to question the safety of the practice of mixing morphs that - at a bare minimum - further research should be done before declaring the practice "ok". It is neither ethically nor scientifically justified to throw available evidence away and go with a "damn the torpedoes" approach.

Again, if you're a proponent of the scientific method, put your money where your mouth is. There is more than enough evidence to the contrary that the practice should be proven safe before it is declared safe. Stop advocating it until said studies have been run. Ethics aside, that's what a scientist would do.


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## Celtic Aaron

Celtic Aaron said:


> Mixing morphs is different than hybridizing. I hope that we can all agree on that. Do you see hybridizing as an ethical issue (one of right and wrong) or is it simply an issue of some do and some don't? I am guessing that you do not see hybridizing as an issue of right or wrong based on your other posts, correct? Are there any ethical issues with the keeping of dart frogs that you are willing to share? What would you consider ethical and unethical with regards to the keeping of dart frogs?



Despite the confusion of mixing morphs in a single viv versus hybridization, I am still curious about what is considered ethical with regards to the keeping of dart frogs in your opinion?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tardis101

Calivet said:


> Is your position then that animal husbandry involves no ethical considerations?
> 
> That is the only way you can reduce this conversation to "it's only opinion". How animals are bred and the ramifications of said breeding is part of animal husbandry. There are ethical considerations implicit in the term "animal husbandry". The only way this is not an ethics discussion is if you feel that there are no ethical concerns in keeping animals. It's not even a debate.
> 
> The discussion isn't about whether crossing morphs is "ok". It is about which practices are healthiest long term for the animals in captivity (and which practices will lead to the least impact on wild populations). It's about whether the current research provides evidence that mixing is beneficial, or at least harmless, to the organism in question, or whether it is deleterious. Evidence has been provided that indicates that there is enough reason to question the safety of the practice of mixing morphs that - at a bare minimum - further research should be done before declaring the practice "ok". It is neither ethically nor scientifically justified to throw available evidence away and go with a "damn the torpedoes" approach.
> 
> Again, if you're a proponent of the scientific method, put your money where your mouth is. There is more than enough evidence to the contrary that the practice should be proven safe before it is declared safe. Stop advocating it until said studies have been run. Ethics aside, that's what a scientist would do.


You do realize you're saying that I've said the same thing over and over again despite my clearly stating I'm not right? For the last time, I am not advocating a position of whether it's "safe" , "ethical", or "deleterious." I'm stating that in my opinion there is insufficient evidence to support a conclusion that mixing morphs isn't safe. Ethics is a whole other ballgame. Unless you're saying it's unethical because it's unsafe to the frogs, then we are back to the same argument.


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## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> You do realize you're saying that I've said the same thing over and over again despite my clearly stating I'm not right? For the last time, I am not advocating a position of whether it's "safe" , "ethical", or "deleterious." I'm stating that in my opinion there is insufficient evidence to support a conclusion that mixing morphs isn't safe. Ethics is a whole other ballgame. Unless you're saying it's unethical because it's unsafe to the frogs, then we are back to the same argument.


No, I am a specifically asking if you think the practice of animal husbandry as a concept has ethical considerations. Other people have asked you as well. You are not answering that question.


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## tardis101

Calivet said:


> No, I am a specifically asking if you think the practice of animal husbandry as a concept has ethical considerations. Other people have asked you as well. You are not answering that question.


That's not really relevant to the thread. So rather than take the thread off the general topic, we can have that conversation over a beer sometime.


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## Celtic Aaron

tardis101 said:


> That's not really relevant to the thread. So rather than take the thread off the general topic, we can have that conversation over a beer sometime.



I am willing to meet up for a beer and a good discussion. What part of Cal are we talking about?


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## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> That's not really relevant to the thread. So rather than take the thread off the general topic, we can have that conversation over a beer sometime.


That is absolutley relevant to the thread. Ethics is the whole reason why this is even a discussion.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> You do realize you're saying that I've said the same thing over and over again despite my clearly stating I'm not right? For the last time, I am not advocating a position of whether it's "safe" , "ethical", or "deleterious." I'm stating that in my opinion there is insufficient evidence to support a conclusion that mixing morphs isn't safe. Ethics is a whole other ballgame. Unless you're saying it's unethical because it's unsafe to the frogs, then we are back to the same argument.


No, ethics does play a role it as do mores. 

As for the evidence factor, I'm guessing that you didn't even bother to review the papers I've posted.... For example this article Lynch, Michael. "The genetic interpretation of inbreeding depression and outbreeding depression." Evolution (1991): 622-629. is about the modeling of outbreeding and inbreeding without a restriction to species, or genus...... 

you are very quick to dismiss outbreeding depression out of hand despite it being able to be modeled mathmatically for multiple taxa, it is known to occur in plants, invertebrates, vertebrates including frogs. Generally when a process is known to occur in that many disparate taxa at the same time and to follow a generic model it is considered to be highly conserved and thus has a very high probability of being an issue in virtually any species which is subjected to that kind of hybridization. That in and of itself makes it hard for a person to simply attempt to dismiss it. 



tardis101 said:


> Hybrid has apparently taken on a wider definition since I took genetics 20 years ago. What it means appears to depend on what field one is in.


The use of hybrid in vertebrates for subspecies and populations is known from before 20 years ago. See some of the discussion in Ballou, JONATHAN D. "Inbreeding and outbreeding depression in the captive propagation of black-footed ferrets." Conservation Biology and the Black-Footed Ferret (1989).

Some comments 

Ed


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## Tzunu'un

> Originally Posted by *tardis101*
> That's not really relevant to the thread. So rather than take the thread off the general topic, we can have that conversation over a beer sometime.





brendan0923 said:


> That is absolutley relevant to the thread. Ethics is the whole reason why this is even a discussion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk



I agree with brendan0923...this is not off the general topic

Isn't the general topic of this thread:
*Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply*

That would seem to cover all that has been brought up for discussion..... "hybridization" is not the ONLY relevant item for discussion.


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## tardis101

Ed said:


> No, ethics does play a role it as do mores.
> 
> As for the evidence factor, I'm guessing that you didn't even bother to review the papers I've posted.... For example this article Lynch, Michael. "The genetic interpretation of inbreeding depression and outbreeding depression." Evolution (1991): 622-629. is about the modeling of outbreeding and inbreeding without a restriction to species, or genus......


Then you would be guessing wrong. I think a far more relevant journal article than one with a mathmatical model from 20+ years ago is this one (since it's actually on frogs) Rapid selection against inbreeding in a wild population of a rare frog
Rapid selection against inbreeding in a wild population of a rare frog



Ed said:


> you are very quick to dismiss outbreeding depression out of hand despite it being able to be modeled mathmatically for multiple taxa, it is known to occur in plants, invertebrates, vertebrates including frogs. Generally when a process is known to occur in that many disparate taxa at the same time and to follow a generic model it is considered to be highly conserved and thus has a very high probability of being an issue in virtually any species which is subjected to that kind of hybridization. That in and of itself makes it hard for a person to simply attempt to dismiss it.


I am much much less concerned about outbreeding depression in small populations of species and far more concerned with inbreeding because of my experience with the threatened and endangered species that I work with. Roughly counting off the top of my head I've worked with about 120 different/separate federally listed species. The populations that I've worked with have been affected far worse by small gene pools, genetic bottlenecks, and inbreeding depression than outbreeding. In fact perhaps the worst case I've worked with was with a plant (so not a vertebrate, but I use it simply because it's the most extreme example I've encountered). We were down to just four occurrences/populations (that were very disjunction and physically far away from one another) and so initially a captive propagation program was developed with three university botanical gardens. We did three because the fourth population was on private land and we couldn't get permission to collect plants/seeds. The original plan was to keep each population separate to represent the full genetic range of the species. A robust program was established with criteria on how many adult plants we needed seeds from, individuals were tagged and offspring tracked. It didn't work. Subsequent generations became smaller and smaller (finally down to adult plants that were less than 12 inches tall), produced fewer flowers, fewer seeds, and fewer viable seeds. The populations in the wild didn't fare much better and over time we lost two of them. We were down to only a few hundred plants. As a last ditch effort the researchers from the universities setup experiments to cross some of the plants from different populations. That worked. We now have plants that are faring much better and some are as tall as 4 feet. Seed production increased and seed viability increased. We now have several thousand plants, and several thousand seeds in seed banks, and we've reestablished one of the populations.

That's only one example from one of the species I've worked with. There are other examples I could give, but again this one is the most dramatic.


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## Dane

tardis101 said:


> I am much much less concerned about outbreeding depression in small populations of species and far more concerned with inbreeding because of my experience with the threatened and endangered species that I work with. Roughly counting off the top of my head I've worked with about 120 different/separate federally listed species. The populations that I've worked with have been affected far worse by small gene pools, genetic bottlenecks, and inbreeding depression than outbreeding. In fact perhaps the worst case I've worked with was with a plant (so not a vertebrate, but I use it simply because it's the most extreme example I've encountered). We were down to just four occurrences/populations (that were very disjunction and physically far away from one another) and so initially a captive propagation program was developed with three university botanical gardens. We did three because the fourth population was on private land and we couldn't get permission to collect plants/seeds. The original plan was to keep each population separate to represent the full genetic range of the species. A robust program was established with criteria on how many adult plants we needed seeds from, individuals were tagged and offspring tracked. It didn't work. Subsequent generations became smaller and smaller (finally down to adult plants that were less than 12 inches tall), produced fewer flowers, fewer seeds, and fewer viable seeds. The populations in the wild didn't fare much better and over time we lost two of them. We were down to only a few hundred plants. As a last ditch effort the researchers from the universities setup experiments to cross some of the plants from different populations. That worked. We now have plants that are faring much better and some are as tall as 4 feet. Seed production increased and seed viability increased. We now have several thousand plants, and several thousand seeds in seed banks, and we've reestablished one of the populations.
> 
> That's only one example from one of the species I've worked with. There are other examples I could give, but again this one is the most dramatic.


I don't see the correlation between your experience, and the captive frog hobby. You were attempting to preserve a wild species on the brink of extinction, and you could only accomplish it by crossing populations. Did you maintain the integrity of the wild-type specimen, or were there traits that were skewed by the cross? Can you reference your study?
There is no issue with longevity or survivability (that I'm aware of) in CB Dendrobates of a singular type/locality, when husbandry is maintained appropriately. There IS a potential for reduced (based on the OH SO MANY scientific studies referenced throughout this thread) vigor due to outbreeding depression within a captive population.


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## tardis101

Dane said:


> I don't see the correlation between your experience, and the captive frog hobby. You were attempting to preserve a wild species on the brink of extinction, and you could only accomplish it by crossing populations. Did you maintain the integrity of the wild-type specimen, or were there traits that were skewed by the cross? Can you reference your study?
> There is no issue with longevity or survivability (that I'm aware of) in CB Dendrobates of a singular type/locality, when husbandry is maintained appropriately. There IS a potential for reduced (based on the OH SO MANY scientific studies referenced throughout this thread) vigor due to outbreeding depression within a captive population.


The correlation is that I was pointing out why I'm not nearly as concerned about potential outbreeding depression with dart frogs. I was simply drawing on an extreme example of my personal experience with a species of very small population size. 

I didn't say there was a problem with longevity or survivability in CB Dendrobates. I said based on my experience with several threatened and endangered species I would be more concerned with inbreeding in dart frogs than I would be with outbreeding depression. 

I also didn't say it was a study; maybe you confused when I said we developed an experimental design to mean there was a study. I believe I said it was a last ditch effort to save a species.


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## Dane

tardis101 said:


> The correlation is that I was pointing out why I'm not nearly as concerned about potential outbreeding depression with dart frogs. I was simply drawing on an extreme example of my personal experience with a species of very small population size.
> 
> I didn't say there was a problem with longevity or survivability in CB Dendrobates. I said based on my experience with several threatened and endangered species I would be more concerned with inbreeding in dart frogs than I would be with outbreeding depression.
> 
> I also didn't say it was a study; maybe you confused when I said we developed an experimental design to mean there was a study. I believe I said it was a last ditch effort to save a species.


Do you consider the results of your informal efforts to have been successful? Wouldn't it have been preferable to be able to maintain the wild specimen, or a captive representation thereof in the first place?


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## tardis101

Dane said:


> Do you consider the results of your informal efforts to have been successful? Wouldn't it have been preferable to be able to maintain the wild specimen, or a captive representation thereof in the first place?


Informal? Where do you get that from?

Maybe I just said it poorly, but I don't think you understood what I was saying. We took representative individuals from the wild populations to maintain a source of each occurrence in captivity (i.e., to maintain a seed bank for the wild populations (thus preserving their genetic variation - or so we were hoping) in case the wild populations didn't make it). Over time (a little shy of 20 years) both the herbarium specimens and their wild counterparts did poorly. So much so that two of the wild populations died out entirely. But the they would have died out regardless of whether anyone had done anything or nothing. The fact that the species still exists today is solely because folks decided to take a chance and cross the three different occurrences that we had samples from. So yes I call that a success. But that wasn't the point of my example, I explained that in my previous post.


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## Dane

tardis101 said:


> Informal? Where do you get that from?
> 
> Maybe I just said it poorly, but I don't think you understood what I was saying. We took representative individuals from the wild populations to maintain a source of each occurrence in captivity (i.e., to maintain a seed bank for the wild populations (thus preserving their genetic variation - or so we were hoping) in case the wild populations didn't make it). Over time (a little shy of 20 years) both the herbarium specimens and their wild counterparts did poorly. So much so that two of the wild populations died out entirely. But the they would have died out regardless of whether anyone had done anything or nothing. The fact that the species still exists today is solely because folks decided to take a chance and cross the three different occurrences that we had samples from. So yes I call that a success. But that wasn't the point of my example, I explained that in my previous post.


In the context of this discussion, where you have called several other posts containing peer-reviewed and scientifically accepted literature into question, it would seem appropriate to consider any lesser claims as 'informal'. Correct?


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## Tzunu'un

tardis101 said:


> Then you would be guessing wrong. I think a far more relevant journal article than one with a mathmatical model from 20+ years ago is this one (since it's actually on frogs) Rapid selection against inbreeding in a wild population of a rare frog
> Rapid selection against inbreeding in a wild population of a rare frog


Am I missing something or what does this paper have to show regarding "hybrids"?

I think that everyone is aware of the dangers of inbreeding.....I am also under the impression that selected line breeding (inbreeding) of dart frogs for certain characteristics is frowned upon in the hobby as well.

I'm no geneticist but wouldn't "inbreeding depression" operate differently than "outbreeding depression"? I would guess that inbreeding depression might cause allele loss and select for recessive genes, whereas outbreeding depression might cause incompatibilities in alleles.



tardis101 said:


> In fact perhaps the worst case I've worked with was with a plant (so not a vertebrate, but I use it simply because it's the most extreme example I've encountered). We were down to just four occurrences/populations (that were very disjunction and physically far away from one another) and so initially a captive propagation program was developed with three university botanical gardens. We did three because the fourth population was on private land and we couldn't get permission to collect plants/seeds. The original plan was to keep each population separate to represent the full genetic range of the species. A robust program was established with criteria on how many adult plants we needed seeds from, individuals were tagged and offspring tracked. It didn't work. Subsequent generations became smaller and smaller (finally down to adult plants that were less than 12 inches tall), produced fewer flowers, fewer seeds, and fewer viable seeds. The populations in the wild didn't fare much better and over time we lost two of them. We were down to only a few hundred plants. As a last ditch effort the researchers from the universities setup experiments to cross some of the plants from different populations. That worked. We now have plants that are faring much better and some are as tall as 4 feet. Seed production increased and seed viability increased. We now have several thousand plants, and several thousand seeds in seed banks, and we've reestablished one of the populations.
> 
> That's only one example from one of the species I've worked with. There are other examples I could give, but again this one is the most dramatic.



I myself have a problem comparing the benefits of hybridization of plants to that of animals/vertebrates.

I'm no expert in this area, but I'm led to believe that hybridization is much more common in plants than in vertebrate animals and plant hybrids are more likely to be fertile. Hybrid speciation is also more common in plants as plants are more tolerant of changing chromosome numbers

from Wikipedia (has links to info sources)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation
"With plants being more tolerant of polyploidity, hybrid species are more common in plants than in animals. Estimates indicate as much as 2–4% of all flowering plants and 7% of all fern species are the results of polyploid hybridization.[25] Many of the crop species are hybrids,[25] and hybridization is an important factor in speciation in some plant groups.[26]"


So onto proof or lack thereof:

if I were to take your logic that there is no proven (peer reviewed, solid) scientific study specific to dart frogs showing that hybridization leads to problems, so therefore there is insufficient evidence to support that there is a problem with dart frog hybridization (potential consideration or real).

Then it is my opinion that there is insufficient evidence to support that there is a benefit with dart frog hybridization (potential consideration or real), as there is no proven (peer reviewed, solid) scientific study specific to dart frogs showing that hybridization leads to benefits.

Since the following appears (as I understand it) to be a claim made by DFW (and that's what this thread topic is about), I would love to see a proven (peer reviewed, solid) scientific study showing definitively that the creation specifically of hybrid dart frogs will lessen the demand for WC dart frogs.
Otherwise, it is my opinion that there is insufficient evidence to support this or to make the claim.


----------



## Ed

Calivet said:


> No, I am a specifically asking if you think the practice of animal husbandry as a concept has ethical considerations. Other people have asked you as well. You are not answering that question.


And the question is still hanging out there unanswered. 




tardis101 said:


> The correlation is that I was pointing out why I'm not nearly as concerned about potential outbreeding depression with dart frogs. I was simply drawing on an extreme example of my personal experience with a species of very small population size.


I think I've been clear that we've been discussing outbreeding depression so the attempt to switch to inbreeding depression is a red herring. In addition, there is peer reviewed literature that indicates that outbreeding should be the option of last resort. See Edmands, Suzanne. "Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management."Molecular Ecology 16.3 (2007): 463-475.



tardis101 said:


> I didn't say there was a problem with longevity or survivability in CB Dendrobates. I said based on my experience with several threatened and endangered species I would be more concerned with inbreeding in dart frogs than I would be with outbreeding depression.


See above. 



tardis101 said:


> I also didn't say it was a study; maybe you confused when I said we developed an experimental design to mean there was a study. I believe I said it was a last ditch effort to save a species.


You do realize that your attempting to impose a double standard here. Everyone but you is required to provide peer reviewed literature to support a point while you can simply use anecdotal evidence as proof. 

In addition, I think the literature is clear that outbreeding is a measure of last resort. See the above reference but even more importantly nothing in that argument supports the claim that outbreeding depression isn't a risk to captive populations. 



tardis101 said:


> Then you would be guessing wrong. I think a far more relevant journal article than one with a mathmatical model from 20+ years ago is this one (since it's actually on frogs) Rapid selection against inbreeding in a wild population of a rare frog


1) how does a paper that indicates inbreeding for local adaptation in any way prove to be relevant to a mathmatical model for outbreeding (the article I cited addressed both). 

2) If anything that article actually contradicts your argument that inbreeding is a huge concern so I have to ask is did you read the article or did you simply post it? This is the second time now you've posted references that contradict your position. 

3) Nothing in your position indicates that the model for outbreeding in that "old" article isn't accurate or correct.... 



tardis101 said:


> We took representative individuals from the wild populations to maintain a source of each occurrence in captivity (i.e., to maintain a seed bank for the wild populations (thus preserving their genetic variation - or so we were hoping) in case the wild populations didn't make it). Over time (a little shy of 20 years) both the herbarium specimens and their wild counterparts did poorly. So much so that two of the wild populations died out entirely. But the they would have died out regardless of whether anyone had done anything or nothing. The fact that the species still exists today is solely because folks decided to take a chance and cross the three different occurrences that we had samples from. So yes I call that a success. But that wasn't the point of my example, I explained that in my previous post.


Anecdotal which you've repeatedly said isn't appropriate as a rebuttal to a peer reviewed paper and it does not address anything about the risk of outbreeding depression. Your attempting to claim that there wasn't any outbreeding depression in any of the populations but there isn't any control in that statement for it. In addition, as I noted above the consensus is that outbreeding is the measure of last resort...... so again, your actually dodging the issue by again focusing on inbreeding. 



Tzunu'un said:


> Am I missing something or what does this paper have to show regarding "hybrids"?


Nothing, and it doesn't address outbreeding depression in any way. I should also point out that there have been repeated attempts to discard any use of wild populations studies as "the frogs in the hobby will never be repatriated" so again we see a double standard. 



Tzunu'un said:


> I think that everyone is aware of the dangers of inbreeding.....I am also under the impression that selected line breeding (inbreeding) of dart frogs for certain characteristics is frowned upon in the hobby as well.


Correct and the general recommendation is that if you have a genetic aberrant frog like the "chocolate" D. leucomelas that they should be bred back into the normal population and if they show up, they show up. 


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> Informal? Where do you get that from?
> 
> Maybe I just said it poorly, but I don't think you understood what I was saying. We took representative individuals from the wild populations to maintain a source of each occurrence in captivity (i.e., to maintain a seed bank for the wild populations (thus preserving their genetic variation - or so we were hoping) in case the wild populations didn't make it). Over time (a little shy of 20 years) both the herbarium specimens and their wild counterparts did poorly. So much so that two of the wild populations died out entirely. But the they would have died out regardless of whether anyone had done anything or nothing. The fact that the species still exists today is solely because folks decided to take a chance and cross the three different occurrences that we had samples from. So yes I call that a success. But that wasn't the point of my example, I explained that in my previous post.


Yes, your anecdotal evidence is good evidence and yes, I absolutey agree that inbreeding is also a serious issue that needs to be prevented. Take leopard geckos for example: many line-bred individuals experience things like overbites, kinked tails, and other deformities. The effects of inbreeding have been well-documented, probably a lot more than outbreeding depression. However I also think that outbreeding depression is also a serious issue that needs to be taken into consideration when breeding these frogs. 

Again, if you look through the thread there are several peer reviewed studies on the effects of outbreeding depression. 

Also, many are asking the same question with no response. Yes, it is relevant to the thread. Please answer. 

Do you think ethics play a part in captive husbandry of animals? What is ethical and unethical, in your opinion, in the captive care of poison dart frogs?



Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## markpulawski

Most importantly 99% of us started in this hobby because of an amazing passion for an amazing tribe of animals, in our gut 99% of us know what is right and how we as a community will or want to move forward....hopefully with "certain expectations" in place.
Someone wants to come forward and change all of that, they are either accepted and prosper or rejected and they fail, mitigating damage as an afterthought. 
So far we as a community, or an organized body of common thought recognize these people as the destrusction of what most of us stand for.....the continuation of a small group of frogs living as nature intended only in the confines of we the selfish protectors of this legacy.
Outlandish claims of interpersonal communication, telepathic party tribes and 4' jumping Tinctorious lead me to believe that the Rick is communicating with unseen spirits....frog spirits, rattlesnake bites....colorado river toad trippin...eat that tree frog Rick.......whoa!
Almost forgot where I was....do that right thing, these people will suffer for not.


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## rigel10

It is a long time I did not follow this thread because of posts, some of which are too long and complex for people like me who does not have such a great mastery of language.
But correct me if I'm wrong, it seemed to me someone called into question ethics, believing it not binding in this hobby.
I believe on the contrary that there is always an ethics in all things, there is an ethics to the base of everything, so even to the base of an hobby like ours.
After all, what reason is there to hybridize frogs? Create new species? We men - I'll be rhetorical or banal, but often it is so - in our megalomania... well let's not replace us to God also in these little things.


----------



## tardis101

Wow, lots to reply to. That's what I get for going to a wedding close to Lake Tahoe. This is going to be super freaking long.  Good luck reading all of it. 



Dane said:


> In the context of this discussion, where you have called several other posts containing peer-reviewed and scientifically accepted literature into question, it would seem appropriate to consider any lesser claims as 'informal'. Correct?


I didn't call the legitimacy of the papers into question at all. Nor did I say anything about whether they should be considered formal or informal. I've pointed out the lack of direct relevancy of the papers to dart frogs.



Tzunu'un said:


> Then it is my opinion that there is insufficient evidence to support that there is a benefit with dart frog hybridization (potential consideration or real), as there is no proven (peer reviewed, solid) scientific study specific to dart frogs showing that hybridization leads to benefits.
> Since the following appears (as I understand it) to be a claim made by DFW (and that's what this thread topic is about), I would love to see a proven (peer reviewed, solid) scientific study showing definitively that the creation specifically of hybrid dart frogs will lessen the demand for WC dart frogs.
> Otherwise, it is my opinion that there is insufficient evidence to support this or to make the claim.


I agree that does appear to be one of the claims they are making. They apparently have their own in house evidence (anecdotal at this point). Now all they need to do is write it up and get it submitted to a peer reviewed journal and see if it gets published.  Then we can all look at it and examine their data.

I absolutely agree with you their claim is not currently supportable. For similar reasons to the claims that there is a deleterious effect to creating mixed morph frogs.

so we have this line of thought:


markpulawski said:


> So far we as a community, or an organized body of common thought recognize these people as the destrusction of what most of us stand for.....the continuation of a small group of frogs living as nature intended only in the confines of we the selfish protectors of this legacy.


Then this side:


edwardsatc said:


> I couldn't agree more. I've been in this hobby a long time and most of my longtime friends in the hobby left the boards years ago, yet they still maintain their collections, are active in the hobby, and maintain close communication with other froggers. Many of those whom were original members of this board in 2004 are still active froggers, but haven't posted in years. There is a frogger in the midwest with 20 years experience and a very large collection who has never been on these boards. I'm slowly walking away from the boards myself. I get much more out of personal communications than I'll ever get out of these boards.
> 
> Unfortunately, if you look closely at the USAFrogs threads, you'll see that the number of members that have spoken out is actually a small percentage of the membership here. Most I suspect do not want to get involved, but many just don't give a shit as long as they get the pretty frogs they want.


And this:


Celtic Aaron said:


> Edit: I drafted this a few days ago and since that time people have explained that there are many people who are not part of the forums but are active in the hobby. This may change my discussion about "the majority." However, without their input, how can we know what their opinion is? Furthermore, unless other evidence is presented, that does not change that the weight of evidence seems to support not hybridizing. Thoughts?


So which is it? Sounds like there isn’t a unified opinion here. Celtic Aaron, I agree with you. We can't know what their opinion is. But silence doesn't mean agreement. There is no weight of evidence. There is a body of literature about outbreeding depression in other organisms that may or may not relate to dart frogs (CB or WC). A lack of evidence to support a hypothesis does not mean that the null hypothesis is also rejected. That's a violation of basic scientific methods. The hypothesis being put forward, based on evidence from other papers on other taxa, is basically: dart frogs suffer from outbreeding depression when different morphs of the same species are cross bred. That's the basic hypothesis. That can be readily tested. Anyone who has two morphs of the same species could test it.



Ed said:


> So your attempting to argue that the process of outbreeding depression in captive populations does not follow the same process as populations in the wild? If that is your argument I would love to see the data supporting your belief.... Or are you arguing that outbreeding depression doesn't occur in captive population? Again, I'd love to see the data that supports that claim.
> 
> You made a bunch of claims as to experience to add weight to your claims. How about ponying up on those claims. What institutions and endangered programs do you work for? I'm very curious.


You seem to keep trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about the process for wild populations vs captive ones.

I've already given my educational background, told you I am an endangered species biologist, told you I have worked for the St. Louis Zoo and the St. Louis Children's aquarium (I don't think it exists anymore), I’ve told you that I am currently working in conjunction with a couple zoos [these are both in California, which I don't think I said before], and I’ve said that I’ve worked in partnership with three university herbariums. And lastly I said my name is Mike. That's as much personally identifiable information as I'm willing to give to complete strangers on a public message board. Especially in light of the OPM security breach. You can be satisfied with it or not. That's up to you.



Ed said:


> And the question is still hanging out there unanswered.
> 
> You do realize that your attempting to impose a double standard here. Everyone but you is required to provide peer reviewed literature to support a point while you can simply use anecdotal evidence as proof.


And you can keep asking the question, because my personal opinion on what is or isn't ethical, or whether there should or shouldn't be ethical standards in animal husband (or if there are, who establishes those standards) is the part that I'm saying isn't relevant to this thread. NOT that ethics are not relevant, just that MY opinion of them isn't.
Ahhh...yes I do realize I’ve presented a double standard. In fact I did it purposefully. And look how easily any information contradictory to your personal opinion was shot down. Which since I’m doing exactly what you’ve done is exactly why that should set off red flag to everyone else.



brendan0923 said:


> Yes, your anecdotal evidence is good evidence and yes, I absolutey agree that inbreeding is also a serious issue that needs to be prevented. Take leopard geckos for example: many line-bred individuals experience things like overbites, kinked tails, and other deformities. The effects of inbreeding have been well-documented, probably a lot more than outbreeding depression. However I also think that outbreeding depression is also a serious issue that needs to be taken into consideration when breeding these frogs.


It’s not that it’s good or bad evidence. (But it was absolutely anecdotal. It’s just that there is some evidence (some from peer reviewed articles, some anecdotal like what I gave) on questions related to small population size (of some organisms – but not on dart frogs) that are likely the result of inbreeding.



brendan0923 said:


> Again, if you look through the thread there are several peer reviewed studies on the effects of outbreeding depression.


I almost feel like I’m beating my head against the wall. I’m not saying outbreeding doesn’t exist. It clearly does and it clearly affects some species. I’m not questioning whether the papers presented are valid or not; I’m saying there is no clear link to dart frogs. The logic being applied in this case, is like anyone picking any set of papers regarding any issue and then saying it’s something to be concerned with in dart frogs. Whatever issue is picked may or may not be relevant to dart frogs. But until someone looks specifically you can’t draw hard conclusions about them.



brendan0923 said:


> Also, many are asking the same question with no response. Yes, it is relevant to the thread. Please answer.
> Do you think ethics play a part in captive husbandry of animals? What is ethical and unethical, in your opinion, in the captive care of poison dart frogs?


Why in the world would anyone care what I thought was or wasn’t ethical? Some people (a lot probably) think keeping wild animals as pets is unethical. Some people are going to say keeping rare (some threatened/endangered) species as pets is unethical. Some people think animal testing is unethical. If the argument is really about ethics, then I’ll step out of the conversation altogether. 

I will give you one thing that I hold as a personal ethic. I try to hold to this regardless of what species I’m dealing with (orchids, fish, coral, sponges, frogs, etc.); I will try keeping an organism up to two times. If it doesn’t survive either attempt, I won’t buy it again. There have been a few instances when something dramatic has happened and I’ve tried a third time (but that’s rare and usually it’s the result of someone who has successfully kept them coming in and looking at my setup).


----------



## Celtic Aaron

tardis101 said:


> So which is it? Sounds like there isn’t a unified opinion here. Celtic Aaron, I agree with you. We can't know what their opinion is. But silence doesn't mean agreement. There is no weight of evidence. There is a body of literature about outbreeding depression in other organisms that may or may not relate to dart frogs (CB or WC). A lack of evidence to support a hypothesis does not mean that the null hypothesis is also rejected. That's a violation of basic scientific methods. The hypothesis being put forward, based on evidence from other papers on other taxa, is basically: dart frogs suffer from outbreeding depression when different morphs of the same species are cross bred. That's the basic hypothesis. That can be readily tested. Anyone who has two morphs of the same species could test it.


Maybe I just don't get this. I am looking at this as an issue of protecting animals from potential harm. If there is some evidence to show that outbreeding depression is an issue with some species, for the sake of the animals, why cross frog locales and run the risk until it is specifically shown that there is no risk specifically in dart frogs. What you are saying is that because there is no clear evidence of outbreeding depression in dart frogs (even though we know it is an issue in other organisms) that we should go ahead and crossbreed them until we know it is an issue. The problem with this philosophy for me is how many frogs pay for that philosophy if it turns out that there is a problem with outbreeding depression in dart frogs? Why then crossbreed if there is a possibility of harming the animals? That is why I have a hard time understanding your position here.

This leads me to why I asked about your ethical position with regards to animal husbandry. I understand that you feel it is not relevant; however, I am simply trying to gain insight into why you would think that, because there is no direct evidence that outbreeding depression is an issue specifically in dart frogs (even though it is proven to be an issue in other organisms), it should be okay to crossbreed, thereby hoping there are no untoward effects. I understand that from a scientific point of view, the lack of direct evidence leaves a question. With that said, we make inferences all the time based on other facts and studies. If someone wants to put on a legitimate study with the proper methods, controls, etc. and have it reviewed by experts in the field of biology and genetics, then have it published, great! Until that time, we are all hobbyists trying to do the best that we can. I realize that there are things that we, as a hobby, need to work on and do better. That does not mean that we should through caution to the wind in areas like this. Proven to be true in darts or not, we know that it is an issue in other organisms. At the end of the day, until we know for sure that it is safe, why not err on the side of caution with these lives? Does that make sense?


----------



## Barry Thomas

This thread continues to amaze me. What is the goal of the present debate? Even if every participant of this forum develops a consensus that outbreeding is bad, It changes nothing. USAdartfrog has demonstrated long ago that they have a different view and will continue breeding frogs in the manner they want. A differing consensus view will not change their business plan. It is their right to breed whatever frogs they wish. 

The participants of this forum seem to be truly concerned about the purity of the captive population. If that is true, perhaps the energy expended expressing outrage about this vendor could be better put to use. There are more effective ways to ensure a viable, pure, population than regurgitating the same moot arguments over and over.


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## allegedhuman

tardis101 said:


> Wow, lots to reply to. That's what I get for going to a wedding close to Lake Tahoe. This is going to be super freaking long.  Good luck reading all of it.


Wow, yeah! I agree, same as you (well, not the wedding in tahoe part but the lots to read from the weekend).




tardis101 said:


> I almost feel like I’m beating my head against the wall. I’m not saying outbreeding doesn’t exist. It clearly does and it clearly affects some species. I’m not questioning whether the papers presented are valid or not; I’m saying there is no clear link to dart frogs. The logic being applied in this case, is like anyone picking any set of papers regarding any issue and then saying it’s something to be concerned with in dart frogs. Whatever issue is picked may or may not be relevant to dart frogs. But until someone looks specifically you can’t draw hard conclusions about them.


Still, I don’t think waiting to determine if outbreeding depression is an important factor or not in dart frogs should wait until there is a specific study in EXACTLY the same species you are interested in. It would be GREAT if research would work that way but when you consider that funding is often hard for “mainstream” projects, it would be impossible to fund repeat experiments of the exact same type of study for EVERY SINGLE species different people are interested in.

Furthermore, for some species a study just physically isn’t possible. Some species don’t breed well or even survive in captivity so wouldn’t be able to do extensive studies across generations on inbreeding on outbreeding for them. And I laugh at the poor soul who wants to test outbreeding depression among the different island populations of Galapagos tortoises…long generation times are NOT your friend when you are trying to do studies like these unless you are willing to make it the legacy of your family’s offspring to continue the research too, haha

In research you work with models that are usually more tractable, often have their basic biology well characterized and then new research will have the ability to try to generalize that data into other systems. So things like drosophlia and nematodes, while they may not be the “sexiest” critters to study really do have a lot to offer for other species. Basic research conducted in those model organisms DOES give you evidence of basic phenomenon and biological processes to use as support to base policies off of even if it is not the exact same species you care about since for most researchers in non-model species that study will not be high in priority to receive funding…if ever  Cries about funding problems…

Then if people want to be super picky, does that mean a study has to be done specifically for each different species of leucs, auratus, Terribs, etc? 

I think the “first do no harm” philosophy would be a good thing to follow. If we wait for the exact perfect study carried out specifically in Tincts to try to address the issue of hybridization (yes, for new readers of this thread…interbreeding different morphs of the same species is hybridization) it will already be too late to later try to undo the damage that may be done if others have been crossing morphs in the meantime while everyone is waiting for a very specific study that may not be coming in time, or even at all for your certain favorite species (sorry tortoise people  ). 


We both agree that there is evidence that breeding between distinct populations can cause outbreeding depression and is a danger, so why not avoid playing with what could be fire? Wouldn’t it better to be proactive and avoid issues instead of trying to stir the hornets nest and see what comes out? After which, we would then have no other recourse but drastic matters like interbreeding morphs or importing wild caught frogs if we do see outbreeding depression issues.

Your example about breeding between populations to avoid extinction is an important thing to consider. If some species are crashing because it is inbred and has poor fertility and fecundity, there really is no other option other than breeding between diverse populations other than to let it go extinct. But why jump the gun to that point already for dart frogs when we do not have evidence for that kind of widespread crisis looming? Especially since you can’t backtrack afterwards to pick out the original populations again. 

We should consider inbreeding issues, and so many people already advocate an anti-linebreeding stance on the board, but also emphasizing using different lines or unrelated frogs in breeding setups would also be important. Not just buying a group of froglets from the same clutch and breeding from that stock in your program forever. Avoiding problems is so much easier than fighting fires.

If we don't want to look at it from a more basic laboratory research standpoint, if we look at conservation issues in rare endangered species. If we wait until a complete study on a elusive species is completed before making a decision it will probably be too late. It is better to work with the best data you have and try to form a policy based on something you know (even if it is from another study of a different species) rather than stand around and debate instead of doing something to avoid something you know CAN be a problem in general.


----------



## Celtic Aaron

Barry Thomas said:


> This thread continues to amaze me. What is the goal of the present debate? Even if every participant of this forum develops a consensus that outbreeding is bad, It changes nothing. USAdartfrog has demonstrated long ago that they have a different view and will continue breeding frogs in the manner they want. A differing consensus view will not change their business plan. It is their right to breed whatever frogs they wish.
> 
> The participants of this forum seem to be truly concerned about the purity of the captive population. If that is true, perhaps the energy expended expressing outrage about this vendor could be better put to use. There are more effective ways to ensure a viable, pure, population than regurgitating the same moot arguments over and over.


Barry,

I do not disagree that our energy could be put to good use in many other ways. With that said, this debate is educating a lot of people, including myself. I am learning a lot about both sides of this debate. Also, this debate is not just about settling the argument here. It seems pretty clear to me that until we can prove that it is safe specifically in dart frogs and does not increase the demand for wild caught frogs contributing to smuggling that crossbreeding is something that should be avoided. To that end, people who are coming into this hobby should be aware of this. Apathy does not make this situation better. 

You are right, people can do what they want; however, I believe they should do what they want given the possible risks and complications. At that time, they can make an informed decision and live with the consequences (good or bad). Some people are informed of the possible risks and complications and still choose to crossbreed. Obviously that is their right to do so.


----------



## tardis101

Celtic Aaron said:


> Maybe I just don't get this. I am looking at this as an issue of protecting animals from potential harm. If there is some evidence to show that outbreeding depression is an issue with some species, for the sake of the animals, why cross frog locales and run the risk until it is specifically shown that there is no risk specifically in dart frogs. What you are saying is that because there is no clear evidence of outbreeding depression in dart frogs (even though we know it is an issue in other organisms) that we should go ahead and crossbreed them until we know it is an issue. The problem with this philosophy for me is how many frogs pay for that philosophy if it turns out that there is a problem with outbreeding depression in dart frogs? Why then crossbreed if there is a possibility of harming the animals? That is why I have a hard time understanding your position here.
> 
> This leads me to why I asked about your ethical position with regards to animal husbandry. I understand that you feel it is not relevant; however, I am simply trying to gain insight into why you would think that, because there is no direct evidence that outbreeding depression is an issue specifically in dart frogs (even though it is proven to be an issue in other organisms), it should be okay to crossbreed, thereby hoping there are no untoward effects. I understand that from a scientific point of view, the lack of direct evidence leaves a question. With that said, we make inferences all the time based on other facts and studies. If someone wants to put on a legitimate study with the proper methods, controls, etc. and have it reviewed by experts in the field of biology and genetics, then have it published, great! Until that time, we are all hobbyists trying to do the best that we can. I realize that there are things that we, as a hobby, need to work on and do better. That does not mean that we should through caution to the wind in areas like this. Proven to be true in darts or not, we know that it is an issue in other organisms. At the end of the day, until we know for sure that it is safe, why not err on the side of caution with these lives? Does that make sense?


That is simply not how science works. As I said, you could therefore take ANY issue in science and then claim it's applicable to dart frogs. That's literally what's being done here. I've watched this issue play out with, I admit, with an almost a morbid curiosity. It's like looking at a car accident. You know it's terrible and shouldn't look but can't help it. To be very honest with you as an endangered species biologist I have an internal struggle every day. I don't actually think it's ethical to keep rare/endangered species as pets. But the obvious hypocrisy is that I do. 

Science has been completely co-opted by personal opinion and hijacked in an attempt to justify a particular set of view points. I think that's unethical. In this particular case to shut down (i.e., attempt to cause to go out of business) a dart frog breeder. I think that's unethical too, regardless of what I may personally think about their marketing or their actual breeding practices. If one doesn't like mixed morph frogs, so be it, boycott the business. 

As I've said multiple times, I have no issue with someone's opinion. But trying to justify that opinion with a theorized deleterious effect to CB (or WC) dart frogs with loosely related science doesn't get folks there. People are free to believe whatever they want, but don't try to use science to justify an opinion that simply isn't supported by the literature (and before someone tries to say it again - I don't mean that outbreeding isn't supported in literature - I mean don't use the literature that is out there on other species to attempt to support the conclusion that it is an issue with dart frogs. We just don't know that's true, but one is free to have whatever opinion they like about mixing morphs).


----------



## allegedhuman

tardis101 said:


> That is simply not how science works. As I said, you could therefore take ANY issue in science and then claim it's applicable to dart frogs. That's literally what's being done here. I've watched this issue play out with, I admit, with an almost a morbid curiosity. It's like looking at a car accident. You know it's terrible and shouldn't look but can't help it. To be very honest with you as an endangered species biologist I have an internal struggle every day. I don't actually think it's ethical to keep rare/endangered species as pets. But the obvious hypocrisy is that I do.


I know you are worried that people may take ANY crazy issue in science and says it applies to really way out crazy areas but paper's like Ed’s example with nematodes or Oryx are addressing the same problems, same question just different species as what we are asking with frogs. The comparisons are not anywhere outside of the ballpark as what we are asking about frogs. It isn’t like we are trying to argue some kind of Schrödinger's Frog theory to dart frog conservation and ask “is the dart frog a hybrid or not? Who knows? So it actually is both simultaneously until you cut it apart...” or something weird like that… For the instance of my crazy example, your objection about using unrelated scientific sources in far reaching instances would be totally fine but earlier examples using different species that showed outbreeding depression isn’t stretching to use as examples when talking about the same issue in other species.

Your criteria for what you consider appropriate evidence seems very strict, in that it is only appropriate if it comes from the exact same model you are working with. I’m curious if the reference sections of papers you only cite studies to support your conclusion if they come from the exact same critter you work with? I can’t recall reading a paper that was so exclusively narrow in drawing upon evidence only from one organism for support in the discussion. 

Citing supporting evidence from other model systems isn’t a problem in science if the comparison is relevant. In my experience people I’ve worked with WANT you to look for ways to integrate other examples to get a more cohesive view of a phenomenon and get additional support from other labs’ work too, even if it isn’t “exactly the same critter” as yours. Even reviewers of these papers don’t have issues with using evidence from other systems to support your hypothesis as long as it is applicable to your hypothesis or question.

And I don't think the use of examples of outbreeding depression in other species is by any way co-opting science. If you want to describe something as co-opting science I would say DFW is a fair target for that description. How else could you explain their "interpretation" of Lotters research and continual contradictory statements like "*American REBEL™ Tinctorius or ART™ Frogs are only available from USA Frog! They are selectively captive bred, cared for & raised only by us here in the U.S.A. Each and every one is pure to their species & variety (many new ones). They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed)*"

I would say misusing very specific scientific terms to (inaccurately) describe their business products is a more appropriate use of the term "co-opting science" we'd both agree on.


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> That is simply not how science works. As I said, you could therefore take ANY issue in science and then claim it's applicable to dart frogs. That's literally what's being done here.


Okay, complete and utter BS. According to your claims, we can't expect to find mitochondria in the cells of any dendrobatid frog which hasn't had been explicitly studied for their presence.... Or we can't expect that their cells go through the cell cycle like other taxa. Or that we can't expect to find homologs in their DNA to other taxa much less other frogs. Or that we shouldn't be using rats to study cancer in humans or other animals, or using rat liver extract to do the Ames test because for it to have valid predictability for all human mutagens each would also have to be run using human liver extracts. Or that we can't utilize bacterial cells to predict mutagenisis in other taxa using the Ames test. 

Or lets expand it out to other branches of science... as an example we really can't know the surface gravity on Jupiter until we actually land something on the surface because we can't apply the equations to it..... 

According to your claims, none of this should happen because it doesn't follow the "appropriate" scientific method (as you define it). Oddly enough, all of those things and the extrapolation and the application of the extrapolation onto other items (whether it is taxa or planets in the respective cases) are accepted as appropriate and are routinely used as such. 

When it comes to fundamentals like cell division, homologs, cell cycles, outbreeding depression, not only is the application of it other taxa (that have not been tested yet) appropriate, it is expected. 




tardis101 said:


> Science has been completely co-opted by personal opinion and hijacked in an attempt to justify a particular set of view points. I think that's unethical.


Funny given that is exactly what you've tried in this thread. 




tardis101 said:


> As I've said multiple times, I have no issue with someone's opinion. But trying to justify that opinion with a theorized deleterious effect to CB (or WC) dart frogs with loosely related science doesn't get folks there.


See above for why this is entirely BS. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## tardis101

Ed said:


> Okay, complete and utter BS. According to your claims, we can't expect to find mitochondria in the cells of any dendrobatid frog which hasn't had been explicitly studied for their presence.... Or we can't expect that their cells go through the cell cycle like other taxa. Or that we can't expect to find homologs in their DNA to other taxa much less other frogs. Or that we shouldn't be using rats to study cancer in humans or other animals, or using rat liver extract to do the Ames test because for it to have valid predictability for all human mutagens each would also have to be run using human liver extracts. Or that we can't utilize bacterial cells to predict mutagenisis in other taxa using the Ames test.
> 
> Or lets expand it out to other branches of science... as an example we really can't know the surface gravity on Jupiter until we actually land something on the surface because we can't apply the equations to it.....
> 
> According to your claims, none of this should happen because it doesn't follow the "appropriate" scientific method (as you define it). Oddly enough, all of those things and the extrapolation and the application of the extrapolation onto other items (whether it is taxa or planets in the respective cases) are accepted as appropriate and are routinely used as such.
> 
> When it comes to fundamentals like cell division, homologs, cell cycles, outbreeding depression, not only is the application of it other taxa (that have not been tested yet) appropriate, it is expected.
> 
> Funny given that is exactly what you've tried in this thread.
> 
> See above for why this is entirely BS.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


You're extrapolating far broader than I intended and I'm sure you're aware of that. Talk about BS. You're making an attempt to confound the discussion by bringing in fundamentals of biology with your reference to DNA and suggesting that's the comparison I'm making. We aren't talking about DNA, or whether mammals all have red blood cells, or even basic evolution. One can't simply pick up one paper (or two or 300) on say a particular pathogen that affects...lets say mammals and assume then that it would also affect butterflies, or frogs, or birds. 

If you are so sure that your hypothesis is correct, then test it. Tincs are pretty common and there are a lot of morphs. You could very easily test if your hypothesis is correct.

And now again before someone says I have to test my hypothesis, let me again remind folks I'm not making a hypothesis. I'm not supporting any position other than the theory being put forward hasn't been proven.


----------



## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> You're extrapolating far broader than I intended and I'm sure you're aware of that. Talk about BS. You're making an attempt to confound the discussion by bringing in fundamentals of biology with your reference to DNA and suggesting that's the comparison I'm making. We aren't talking about DNA, or whether mammals all have red blood cells, or even basic evolution. *One can't simply pick up one paper (or two or 300) on say a particular pathogen that affects...lets say mammals and assume then that it would also affect butterflies, or frogs, or birds.
> *
> If you are so sure that your hypothesis is correct, then test it. Tincs are pretty common and there are a lot of morphs. You could very easily test if your hypothesis is correct.
> 
> And now again before someone says I have to test my hypothesis, let me again remind folks I'm not making a hypothesis. I'm not supporting any position other than the theory being put forward hasn't been proven.


If, however, a pathogen is found to affect plants, and zebrafish, and largemouth bass, and salmon, and oryx, and the common frog, it is entirely plausible to expect that it SHOULD affect a second species of frog, rather than to think it will not. 

In fact, it would be considered foolish and irresponsible to act as if it did not until proven otherwise.


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> You seem to keep trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about the process for wild populations vs captive ones.


Actually you did.... 


tardis101 said:


> The links you provided are about issues with crossing and then returning to wild populations. We've already established that's not going to happen. This whole argument has nothing to do with wild populations. The only anecdotal argument provided was that it might increase a demand for wild caught pure morph frogs,


 from post 2023



tardis101 said:


> and While there are dart frog genetic studies (including one where Dr. Lotters is a coauthor and it's on d. tincs), i'm not aware of one looking at whether outbreeding depression in captive dart frog populations is a potential issue.


It is pretty clear that your attempting to separate any studies from wild populations and captive populations as to relevance. So no, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I was challenging your claim. So where is the proof? 



tardis101 said:


> I've already given my educational background, told you I am an endangered species biologist, told you I have worked for the St. Louis Zoo and the St. Louis Children's aquarium (I don't think it exists anymore), I’ve told you that I am currently working in conjunction with a couple zoos [these are both in California, which I don't think I said before], and I’ve said that I’ve worked in partnership with three university herbariums. And lastly I said my name is Mike. That's as much personally identifiable information as I'm willing to give to complete strangers on a public message board. Especially in light of the OPM security breach. You can be satisfied with it or not. That's up to you.


None of which is verifiable and we've had people attempt to play a role in the past to create a debate. I have to admit for a person with those purported credentials, your shaky on the actual data and have effectively resorted to simply denying the other side. The only reported proof to date is that anecdotal story to supplied and the one that demonstrated in that population of frogs inbreeding wasn't a concern (using your standards). 




tardis101 said:


> And you can keep asking the question, because my personal opinion on what is or isn't ethical, or whether there should or shouldn't be ethical standards in animal husband (or if there are, who establishes those standards) is the part that I'm saying isn't relevant to this thread. NOT that ethics are not relevant, just that MY opinion of them isn't


Actually given that your arguing that there since no one has tested dendrobatids for outbreeding depression, it shouldn't be a surprise that your ethics come into play. Kind of like the argument about relabeling creationism as Intelligent Design. 



tardis101 said:


> Ahhh...yes I do realize I’ve presented a double standard. In fact I did it purposefully. And look how easily any information contradictory to your personal opinion was shot down. Which since I’m doing exactly what you’ve done is exactly why that should set off red flag to everyone else.


So since I caught the double standard, your claiming you did it on-purpose to show that I'm persecuting you... or is it because you can't support your argument without the double standard? I called BS on it before and I'll do it again. 



tardis101 said:


> It’s not that it’s good or bad evidence. (But it was absolutely anecdotal. It’s just that there is some evidence (some from peer reviewed articles, some anecdotal like what I gave) on questions related to small population size (of some organisms – but not on dart frogs) that are likely the result of inbreeding.


Which according to your argument to date, it is specious because it wasn't done in a specific dendrobatid and wasn't peer reviewed. If your going to disclaim anecdotal proof from others (like the following) then you shouldn't attempt to pass it off as valid example. 



tardis101 said:


> That very well might be true (or it might not be if there are aren't any studies looking at it and it's all anecdotal).





tardis101 said:


> I almost feel like I’m beating my head against the wall. I’m not saying outbreeding doesn’t exist. It clearly does and it clearly affects some species. I’m not questioning whether the papers presented are valid or not; I’m saying there is no clear link to dart frogs. The logic being applied in this case, is like anyone picking any set of papers regarding any issue and then saying it’s something to be concerned with in dart frogs. Whatever issue is picked may or may not be relevant to dart frogs. But until someone looks specifically you can’t draw hard conclusions about them.


See my comments in the above post applying this logic to biology and other sciences. According to you, I can't draw a hard conclusion that if I find an animal that has a short body, is tailless, carnivorous, four limbed, ectothermic, vertebrate that has a moist skin, and moves via a hopping motion, I can't claim it is an amphibian much less a frog without indepth study of its physiology and life cycle and publishing it in a peer reviewed journal. 



tardis101 said:


> Why in the world would anyone care what I thought was or wasn’t ethical?


Because you could be simply be pretending to be a biologist etc and has an agenda. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## tardis101

Calivet said:


> If, however, a pathogen is found to affect plants, and zebrafish, and largemouth bass, and salmon, and oryx, and the common frog, it is entirely plausible to expect that it SHOULD affect a second species of frog, rather than to think it will not.
> 
> In fact, it would be considered foolish and irresponsible to act as if it did not until proven otherwise.


But that's exactly how theories are developed and then tested. One makes an observation, makes a plausible connection to something else, then setups a design to test their hypothesis. I'm not saying the theory of outbreeding depression in dart frogs isn't plausible or possible. But I seem to keep saying that over and over again also to no avail.

And regarding Ed's last post. You can believe me or not that I'm an endangered species biologist. It's of no relevance to me if you believe me or not. But if you really think I'm going to give you my full name, agency, title, social security number (I threw that last one in since I don't really know what would satisfy you), etc. just so you can go prove to yourself that I exist, or have the background I say I do...well then you have a very long wait ahead of you.


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> You're extrapolating far broader than I intended and I'm sure you're aware of that. Talk about BS. You're making an attempt to confound the discussion by bringing in fundamentals of biology with your reference to DNA and suggesting that's the comparison I'm making. We aren't talking about DNA, or whether mammals all have red blood cells, or even basic evolution. One can't simply pick up one paper (or two or 300) on say a particular pathogen that affects...lets say mammals and assume then that it would also affect butterflies, or frogs, or birds.
> 
> If you are so sure that your hypothesis is correct, then test it. Tincs are pretty common and there are a lot of morphs. You could very easily test if your hypothesis is correct.
> 
> And now again before someone says I have to test my hypothesis, let me again remind folks I'm not making a hypothesis. I'm not supporting any position other than the theory being put forward hasn't been proven.


Actually I'm not confounding it nor am I extrapolating it excessively based on your statements. 

Have you or have you not stated in various ways?


tardis101 said:


> That is simply not how science works. As I said, you could therefore take ANY issue in science and then claim it's applicable to dart frogs. That's literally what's being done here.


All I simply did was apply that logic to other accepted scientific practices that under your standard shouldn't be considered science. 

As I noted before (and its supported in a peer reviewed journal) that outbreeding depression is a fundamental problem in population management and is known from every taxa that has been studied for it invertebrates, vertebrates, and plants. As I noted before, biological processes that are that wide spread tend to be considered fundamental (like gene homologs) and it is accepted practice to apply them to other taxa without necessarily testing for it explicitly (much like the use of rat liver extract, or using rats to study cancer models for other animals). 

All you've been able to supply as counter is repeated denials and an very narrow definition to avoid having to concede the point due to lack of proof. 
Your position is contrary to many accepted scientific practices and applications. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> But that's exactly how theories are developed and then tested. One makes an observation, makes a plausible connection to something else, then setups a design to test their hypothesis. I'm not saying the theory of outbreeding depression in dart frogs isn't plausible or possible. But I seem to keep saying that over and over again also to no avail.
> 
> And regarding Ed's last post. You can believe me or not that I'm an endangered species biologist. It's of no relevance to me if you believe me or not. But if you really think I'm going to give you my full name, agency, title, social security number (I threw that last one in since I don't really know what would satisfy you), etc. just so you can go prove to yourself that I exist, or have the background I say I do...well then you have a very long wait ahead of you.


You are correct, that is exactly how things are figured out. Where you are going dramatically astray is your insistence that one must have definitive evidence before finding a theory plausible, when in fact theories are found plausible on weaker evidence than what we have for outbreeding depression in dart frogs (your own use of anecdotal evidence, the weakest evidence one can have, to form your own opinions on inbreeding depression characterizes this). 

The larger issue with your position is that if a practice has potentially deleterious effects, the ethical and scientific practice is to AVOID that practice until it is definitively proven to be or to not be an issue, not to put your fingers in your ears and insist it isn't your problem until someone else proves that it is. I don't personally care who you are. However, I think that if there was a known pathogen that crossed species lines like our last hypothetical, and you brought some animals into your zoo and mixed them with another species in a clean enclosure, without first testing to find out if that species could be carrying that pathogen, you'd be (rightly) fired on the spot. Your position in this conversation is no different. Saying "I keep saying it might exist" doesn't absolve you of the ramifications of promulgating the viewpoint that in the face of evidence that significant risks may be present that people can act as if there are no risks until it is definitively proven that there are no risks.


----------



## Tzunu'un

Again, as this thread is about Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply
(apologies for the broken record)

I wanted to highlight

Regarding the claim by DFW claiming that creating hybrid frogs will reduce the demaind for WC frogs.



tardis101 said:


> I agree that does appear to be one of the claims they are making. They apparently have their own in house evidence (anecdotal at this point). Now all they need to do is write it up and get it submitted to a peer reviewed journal and see if it gets published.  Then we can all look at it and examine their data.
> 
> *I absolutely agree with you their claim is not currently supportable.*


*Great, I take this that you Tardis101 are supporting that USA Frogs, etc. should not be misleading people by making this claim*.....which perhaps could be interpreted as a marketing ploy.

But, I didn't appreciate the wink reponse and that you feel that they have anecdotal evidence in house to support their claim.....really?
Do you really think that they have this data ? or could this be another ploy or attempt to diminish that you stated that their claim is not supportable?



Again, as this thread is about Dartfrog Warehouse / USdartfrog / Safedartfrogs / Designerfrogs / USAfrog /Frogsupply



allegedhuman said:


> If you want to describe something as co-opting science I would say DFW is a fair target for that description. How else could you explain their "interpretation" of Lotters research and continual contradictory statements like "*American REBEL™ Tinctorius or ART™ Frogs are only available from USA Frog! They are selectively captive bred, cared for & raised only by us here in the U.S.A. Each and every one is pure to their species & variety (many new ones). They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed)*"portions Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.
> 
> I would say misusing very specific scientific terms to (inaccurately) describe their business products is a more appropriate use of the term "co-opting science" we'd both agree on.


Would you agree or not that this is misusing scientific terms, potentially misleading / incorrect or not?




tardis101 said:


> That is simply not how science works. As I said, you could therefore take ANY issue in science and then claim it's applicable to dart frogs. That's literally what's being done here.


*Regarding hybrids, science, etc.:*

Yes, in the end actual data trumps any hypotheses or concerns.....until new data comes along that disagrees with that data.

However in science there is precedence for extrapolating results and concerns in the absence of the actual data.

Why else would there be "black box warnings" on certain drugs or treatments?
Why else are there warnings on tobacco products or alcohol?

Does this mean for sure that any one person taking those drugs/treatments or using tobacco or alcohol will definitely have a problem? No, but it is reasonable to assume that there is definitely a reasonable possibility of harm based upon extrapolation of results from in vitro tests, animal models, and sometimes but not always from limited population studies in humans.

Taking the same logic you are taking from dismissing the fact that outbreeding depression occurs across many taxa so therefore there is no concern or responisibility (ethics) in hybridizing dart frogs, then you had better tell the FDA that they should remove all black box warnings and potential adverse event patient information involved with therapies and why not remove the warning labels on tobacco and alcohol products as well as you haven't proven that it will happen definitively.

In following:
Hypothetically, let's say a tobacco or alcohol conglomerate starts making claims saying that...."you know this is America (you have rights) and that people like to drink and smoke (as you should), so all of those other people and agencies are wrong for raising concerns....they just have their own agenda for getting you to think their way. We (the alcohol / tobacco conglomerate) well we make all our products in the USA....USA proud !.... We are thinking about you and we have the alcohol and tobacco that is friendly.....we have been doing this for a while and we have developed products that are safe for you. Our products provide you with benefits such as an energy/ attention boost (tobacco), relaxation (alcohol), or opportunities for socialization (tobacco or alcohol). So don't listen to any of the the concerns of the naysayers, they have their own agenda."

(Again above is a hypothetical, illustrative scenario of having realistic warning/concerns when you can't be 100% sure of the outcome.)


Would you want black box warnings or someone out there educating / pointing out concern to the public at large or not?

It is a choice, but an educated public is one that is better able to make decisions for themselves.....and often educated choices on a large scale influence business practices / create the change.

As pointed out earlier, apathy doesn't help anyone and often those at most risk/unaware/uneducated are taken advantage of....history shows this in retrospect in several instances.

Borrowing from Ed's signature:
_A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."_
I'll add ", especially when others raised concerns and there wasn't a valid reason / benefit to do it in the first place."


Getting back to what I keep highlighting, along with several other people !

This argument is larger than hybridization.....it's about ethical concerns, potential validity of statements and marketing, and business practices.



tardis101 said:


> Science has been completely co-opted by personal opinion and hijacked in an attempt to justify a particular set of view points. I think that's unethical. In this particular case to shut down (i.e., attempt to cause to go out of business) a dart frog breeder. I think that's unethical too, regardless of what I may personally think about their marketing or their actual breeding practices.





allegedhuman said:


> And I don't think the use of examples of outbreeding depression in other species is by any way co-opting science. If you want to describe something as co-opting science I would say DFW is a fair target for that description. How else could you explain their "interpretation" of Lotters research and continual contradictory statements like "*American REBEL™ Tinctorius or ART™ Frogs are only available from USA Frog! They are selectively captive bred, cared for & raised only by us here in the U.S.A. Each and every one is pure to their species & variety (many new ones). They will reproduce (i.e., NOT hybrid) and they are ALL 100% Tinctorius (i.e., NOT a cross-breed)*"portions Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.
> 
> I would say misusing very specific scientific terms to (inaccurately) describe their business products is a more appropriate use of the term "co-opting science" we'd both agree on.





AbeV said:


> "WE PUT TOGETHER THE FROGMATCH SOFTWARE TO HELP YOU BUILD THAT BEAUTIFUL FROG GROUPING FOR THE ENJOYMENT AND HARMONY THROUGHOUT THEIR ENTIRE LIFE!
> 
> We start by breeding only the best, most social, secure, active and friendly frog lines, 100% pure to the species and variety they represent. We then raise the offspring in social group settings and while each frog is different, we have a ton of breeding data that shows which of our frogs are capable of being "BFF" (Best Friend Frogs). In addition, because we raise our frogs in social groups and tend to them carefully and continuously, our proprietary FROGMATCH™ criteria is ONLY recommended for USA Frogs.*Our FROGMATCH compatibility is*NOT recommended for frogs sold by any other seller, or poison dart frogs, and any seller that warns their frogs exhbibit antisocial behavior or fight.*" Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.



I don't think "putting them out of business" has been the goal (although in the heat of the moment when there were multiple attempts to discuss topics/issues with them that didn't progress, human nature /emotions may have been expressed).

I think that if you read this thread entirely and the previous thread, you would see that there has been an ongoing effort to get clarification and correction of what DFW, etc is doing and has been claiming. This is not only for "the hobby", but anyone that is thinking about getting into the hobby/buying dart frogs is informed and educated BEFORE they are involved / make that purchase.
They have (from several opinions on this thread) been unwilling to discuss and to clarify facts from opinion, and to work with the hobby to address and mitigatre concerns.

I myself have a problem with anyone that might market pets with hype, hooks, fancy names, and especially when there might be the chance that the consumer (who could be uniformed/unclear) is getting something that perhaps isn't as claimed or hyped, or being mislead / taken advantage of. This goes for any retailer, individual, etc.

Are frogs now stooped / reduced to the rank of "Sea-Monkeys" (really brine shrimp) or "Mexican Jumping Beans" (larvae of the moth Cydia deshaisiana the seeds of the shrub Sebastiania pavoniana)....I'd rather have these customers that are doomed to have these pets perish buy pet rocks, stuffed animals, or a Tamagotchi.



Second, in the matter of ethical treatment of animals is the potential for retailers / people to construe pets as unimportant entities, that are like any other product, material good that you can treat or mistreat (deliberately or unintentially) as it doesn't matter. 
Again, this goes for any retailer, etc.

_ Hey if they are sold that's great...cha ching! Hey they died?....you should try again, I have just what you need !. Don't worry they are just pet frogs....and you can rest at ease they haven't affected the population of frogs in the wild. After all we raised them (bred, hybridized and/or selected) just so you could aquire them and have them as a pet.....so they were meant for you to have....whether they die or not....just buy another! They can be your friend and need a home....buy more as they need friends themselves ! _

This is just an illustrative example of hypothetical capitalistic business practices with pets that I disagree with supporting.




Relevant to this post is something I previously posted/pointed out in post #1838



Tzunu'un said:


> Thanks Doug for bringing the additional YouTube video to light.
> 
> .......
> 
> What is more disturbing to me is:
> _(from YouTube comments) _
> 
> Quote:
> TheClawMachineManiac 2 weeks ago
> I just want to say thank you for posting this video. I've been searching for good breeders, and have never come across USA frog. Because of this video, I found them and ordered 24 beautiful tinctoriouses! I'm still waiting to have them shipped, because I'm building a large vivarium. Thank you again very much!
> 
> Would any of you that breed/raise/sell dart frogs not have red flags come up / think twice if a person said that they wanted to buy 24 dart frogs from you and put them in one vivarium they are building? Sadly I fear that this person may be young / new to the hobby.
> 
> Proper information has to get out to the mainstream to keep a potential catastophe for the frogs / newbies from happening.


This is a potential concern and reason for discussion of ethics, business, practices, etc. 
This isn't to satisfy the hobby....it's to make sure that correct information is out there and not being misrepresented.....this helps the hobby and benefits the public at large.


This goes back to the real topic of this thread....which hybridization is a part, but only a part.

This discussion is important on many aspects......there are several issues that can be addressed individually, but have to be viewed as a whole to understand why the discussion is taking place at all.


----------



## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> But that's exactly how theories are developed and then tested. One makes an observation, makes a plausible connection to something else, then setups a design to test their hypothesis. I'm not saying the theory of outbreeding depression in dart frogs isn't plausible or possible. But I seem to keep saying that over and over again also to no avail.


And this is why we are asking about your opinion on ethics. This is a hobby. It shouldn't be our job to go ahead and test to see whether or not outbreeding depression, which has already been proven to negativley impact other species, has an effect on poison dart frog as well. By doing this, we may be doing a couple of things:

First, we may produce offspring that could potentially carry genetic defects and possibly spread them to other collections.

Second, this might damage the pure lines, as all of these "morphs" get crossed with each other over and over resulting in frogs with so many different morph combinations that nobody knows what they are anymore. 

And lastly, we could potentially increase the demand for wild caught frogs due to the overabundance of hybrid frogs with potentially harmful defects, affecting not only the live animals themselves, but the keepers as well.

Do you see the ethical problem here? It's not a matter of "well let's just test the hypothesis," because we are not in a lab. We are trying to create a stable hobby for all of us to enjoy our frogs. Not perform tests on them. If a University or something wants to do a study, that's their business. It shouldn't be, in my opinion, up to the general population to do that. 

So again, you seem to be missing the point. We understand that we haven't DIRECTLY observed outbreeding depression in dart frogs. I don't care. There is enough evidence to suggest that it is a possibility in poison dart frogs, therfore I find it unethical to attempt to hybridize until I am proven wrong. 

This is why many are against USA Frog. This is why mixing is discouraged. This is why this whole conversation is going on. Because many of us find it unethical, irresponsible, and morally wrong, until proven otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Tzunu'un

I'm glad that Brendan0923 brought up the points in the last post.


Going back to my analogy with drugs/therapies being approved by the FDA, when there are concerns/Black Box Warnings/possibilities of adverse events. These drugs/therapies would never be pursued or approved if there wasn't a valid reason /benefit to using them that outweighed the risks. 

The tobacco analogy occured as education / knowledge in retrospect ("seemed like a good idea at the time")
Tobacco companies did as many already know originally use some tactics in marketing cigarettes akin to the hypothetical situation I gave....I remember that they claimed something along the lines that smoking would "make you popular", be seen as a "real man" , give you "identity", "stand out from the crowd", made different flavors / products to expand smoker base, etc. Unfortunately there was little information and there was apparent apathy about bringing up any potential problems with smoking...it was a marketing / social identity bonanza.

However once the numbers of smokers increased and the real scientific studies took place, there began a concerted effort to separate claims from opinion/marketing and oversight of the industry...including education / support for future or present smokers and appropriate warning labels for risks.
Too late for those with lung cancer and other problems.

If concerns of these dangers were suspected ahead of time would this have played out differently....I would hope so and believe so especially if it occurred today as potential concerns are taken more seriously.


Does this mean that there isn't still an ongoing debate about the right to choose to smoke or not?

No, the argument still occurs as it is a choice (as it should be in my opinion), BUT it is only a valid (ethical) choice if the smoker is only affecting themselves and they choose to smoke after understanding and acknowleging all the information and concerns, while they follow guidelines to not endanger others with second hand smoke , etc.

Do no harm to others.


Regarding animal experimentation:



brendan0923 said:


> A
> Do you see the ethical problem here? It's not a matter of "well let's just test the hypothesis," because we are not in a lab. We are trying to create a stable hobby for all of us to enjoy our frogs. Not perform tests on them. If a University or something wants to do a study, that's their business. It shouldn't be, in my opinion, up to the general population to do that.


 

I have discussed the ethics involved in animal research several times with students in laboratories that I've run. 
(I myself detest animal studies, but at the same time I acknowledge the need in certain cases...but if they can be avoided they should be.)


Often young scientists are optimistic, enthusiastic, and full of ideas (good things), but at the same time they often need to be educated (development need) as to the ethics involved in animal research /testing in science.
Just because you want to do something to see what happens is not an ethical reason to experiment with animals.

*That is the reason for IACUC (Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee) oversite of animal studies.*

(some of the most pertinent guidelines for your study plan):

You have to have a valid reason (benefit) for doing the study with appropriate measures. 

You have to show that the study is not redundant. 

You have to show that you can't use other simpler (non-animal) means to get the answer. 

You have to have a plan with expected outcomes and rigorous experimental measures including positive and negative controls. 

You have to bring forward and take into account ANY possible adverse events / concerns / suffering / harm and have protocols in place to minimize these concerns or mitigate or alleviate animal pain/suffering. Often these include euthanasia criteria to alleviate suffering.

You have to state what will happen to the animals at the end of the study.

Your laboratory/facility has to be approved for such work and the personnel have to be educated / passed specific training on animal care and the ethics of animal research.


Students/young researcher often have the largest problem with the ethics of first item.
They want to do it just because it "would be cool", to "see if I'm right", "see what happens", "make something new".

None of these are valid ethical reasons for doing an experimental animal study.

The young students also, after doing experiments in vitro, or with E.coli/yeast, or with mammalian cell lines, sometimes disconnect that animal studies are different and have an even larger ethical component to them. They get too tied up in / taken away by the science and possibilities of doing something new. They loose the appreciation that these animals are living / feeling sentient organisms and see them as another laboratory test subject.....The whole reason that IACUC oversight was put in place.



Going back to what Brendan0923 pointed out.

Doing an anecdotal (improper scientifically and ethically) study of frogs that might put them in harm (without having action plans / mitigation plans for potential concerns / suffering in place) using a study plan that is not solid with a valid rationale, measurable outcomes, statistical significance, benefit at a facility where it isn't approved for such work and the personnel are not properly trained.....is unethical.

Leave the animal experimentation to the real scientists, with the proper facilities, training, expertise, and oversight.


Animal experimentation when there is a possibility of concern /harm and it is not addressed could be seen by many as irresponsible if not animal cruelty.


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## Roadrunner

California's Super Hybrid Salamander Dilemma


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## easternversant

tardis101 said:


> But that's exactly how theories are developed and then tested. One makes an observation, makes a plausible connection to something else, then setups a design to test their hypothesis. I'm not saying the theory of outbreeding depression in dart frogs isn't plausible or possible. But I seem to keep saying that over and over again also to no avail.
> 
> And regarding Ed's last post. You can believe me or not that I'm an endangered species biologist. It's of no relevance to me if you believe me or not. But if you really think I'm going to give you my full name, agency, title, social security number (I threw that last one in since I don't really know what would satisfy you), etc. just so you can go prove to yourself that I exist, or have the background I say I do...well then you have a very long wait ahead of you.


You seem to be confusing science with policy/actionable knowledge. In science the goal has long been, as you imply, to test specific hypotheses and learn about the world that way. However, a recent push has been to take knowledge and use it to make predictions (basically, applying it elsewhere). You could calculate the overall impact of outbreeding depression across taxa and use that to predict how it occurs in dendrobatids. Would it be correct? Maybe. It is a great starting point though.

The larger issue here is that your approach is redactive and reactionary. You won't cede your point until there is scientific evidence against it? Who decides that the scientific evidence is good enough? You do. This is inherently biased. Frankly, it reminds me of politicians and big companies that ignore overwhelming scientific evidence regarding climate change, pesticides, plastics, etc. You don't want to take action or change behaviors until the evidence is incontrovertible? Well, you will be too late. 

A perfect ongoing example of this is Bsal. Previously, Bd chytrid has decimated amphibian populations worldwide. We were unaware of this threat, and it was a largely unsuccessful scramble to combat it. We know about the new congeneric chytrid Bsal. We know that it can be harbored in Asian salamander species, and that it will kill off other species. Have we changed policy regarding amphibian imports/the pet trade? No. This is despite the calls from scientists to immediately take action. If you think it isn't a risk, here is a recent paper modelling the risk published in Science.

Lastly, I doubt any of us really care who you are or what your career is. Personally, I care more about your ability to think. I've met truly terrible scientists and wildlife biologists who can't synthesize ideas to save their life. Likewise I've met non-scientists who think well and make brilliant connections. Thought is more important than profession. 

Oh, and since you are playing the "do you know who I am" card (without saying who you are...): I don't think you know who Ed is, the work he has done, or his ability to think. You should rectify this.


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## Roadrunner

There are peer reviewed papers stating i could die in a car crash, so could my loved ones, but I don't keep them from driving. I don't bash them at every chance about their driving. Because it may not happen.
Besides that is how EVERY other hobby breeding pets operates. Animals look the same from all over(loes, ball, really most pythons, snakes, etc.) and they are brought in at different times from different areas.
You can try and make policy on prediciting the future but when you bash someone for their choices when you have no ac, generator, don't measure out your vits. etc. and hold a standard(going back to the wild) that you yourself don't match up to, it's WRONG.
You are trying to narrowly define one thing withuot shedding light on what the hobby accepts every day.

Look at the pearls of wisdom thread and see that the founders were trying to set things in place to keep this place from becoming radcalized so that people could get along. Or maybe they felt that if it got to this point it would ruin the hobby no matter what!

Show me the "science" that you can stop people from producing hybrids! That';s the paper I want to see. Because tehre are 2 parts to your quandry, showing it's true and then convincing the other side to stop. If the science doesn't ccover both then someones not thinking right!


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## MasterOogway

The very first post in that thread is "I will not create or introduce hybrids into the hobby." What, exactly, is the point you're trying to make? We can't stop a person from breeding hybrids on their own, obviously. That being said, there is definitely a possibility of stopping a BUSINESS from doing that, if enough of their customer base is informed that hybrid frogs are extremely frowned upon in this hobby. That, ultimately I believe, is the goal of this thread. If they can't move stock, then they're going to have to close up shop, instead of flooding the market with ridiculous frogs with ridiculous names and ridiculous lineages.


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## Celtic Aaron

Roadrunner said:


> There are peer reviewed papers stating i could die in a car crash, so could my loved ones, but I don't keep them from driving. I don't bash them at every chance about their driving. Because it may not happen.
> Besides that is how EVERY other hobby breeding pets operates. Animals look the same from all over(loes, ball, really most pythons, snakes, etc.) and they are brought in at different times from different areas.
> You can try and make policy on prediciting the future but when you bash someone for their choices when you have no ac, generator, don't measure out your vits. etc. and hold a standard(going back to the wild) that you yourself don't match up to, it's WRONG.
> You are trying to narrowly define one thing withuot shedding light on what the hobby accepts every day.
> 
> Look at the pearls of wisdom thread and see that the founders were trying to set things in place to keep this place from becoming radcalized so that people could get along. Or maybe they felt that if it got to this point it would ruin the hobby no matter what!
> 
> Show me the "science" that you can stop people from producing hybrids! That';s the paper I want to see. Because tehre are 2 parts to your quandry, showing it's true and then convincing the other side to stop. If the science doesn't ccover both then someones not thinking right!


I have a great deal of respect for those who have come before me in this hobby. I know they have a perspective of the hobby and a knowledge base that I do not have. In that light, I appreciate the input from those who have been around for a long time, even if they choose not to actively participate on these boards any longer. And, I agree that having a registry would greatly help us to track the lineages of our animals to prevent cross breeding and inbreeding. That is an area in this hobby where we have dropped the ball, in my opinion. With that said, there is a real lack of logical thinking going on around here. I am very open to debate because it helps me learn and it will do one of three things: 1. help me form an opinion, 2. help me alter an opinion, or 3. help me to solidify an opinion. What has happened with this debate is my opinion is more solidified now than it was 2 weeks ago. With all of this discussion going on I have still not heard a good argument for hybridizing in our captive populations. As a matter of fact, what I am hearing from you is that people should be able to do whatever they want without anyone telling them it could be harmful. That, somehow telling someone that hybridizing could be harmful is bullying? Are you serious? Informing someone on how to potentially lessen risk for their frogs, the hobby, and conservation is bullying? You may not get on your child for driving, even though you know there is a risk of injury or death due to an accident, but would you not get on your child for driving too fast, recklessly, or while intoxicated? How irresponsible would that be of you as a parent not to give that knowledge to your child? While we are not the parents of any other hobbyist, and they have the right to do what they want with their frogs ultimately, I think that hobbyists should be armed with the information to make a good decision.


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## rigel10

Mamma mia! What nonsense I have heard on the basis of science (or presupposed science)! Legitimize hybridization! 
And what ridiculous justifications!
I believe that the summer heat is giving us in the head! Or perhaps is giving head just me!
Sorry for my outburst!
@TarantulaGuy: You've hit the mark of this thread.
@CelticAron: You have well expressed my thoughts about recent posts.
Thank you both (It seems that the 'Thanks button' does not work well for me!)


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## Aldross

rigel10 said:


> Mamma mia! What nonsense I have heard on the basis of science (or presupposed science)! Legitimize hybridization!
> And what ridiculous justifications!
> I believe that the summer heat is giving us in the head! Or perhaps is giving head just me!


I also have a theory
I'm starting to wonder if this thread is being trolled. Never have I met a science minded person who has this kind thought process.
What I don't understand is that following the true scientific method if you are to say something is wrong then it is your requirement to substitute it with a more plausible model. Then to say that you are not required to prove your point but the is fact you are. That's under-playing the fact that a good theory has been tested many times, and it's quibbling to act is if there's a serious chance that it's incorrect (especially if you're not actively working on a better theory that also explains just how the old theory managed to survive so long). If you cannot support your claim then it will always be discounted. The current model of out-breeding depression has so far withstood the test of time and adheres to all rules of nature. Real work gets done precisely because a theory has held up, and that's the thing that makes a theory worthwhile.


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## epiphytes etc.

Roadrunner said:


> There are peer reviewed papers stating i could die in a car crash, so could my loved ones, but I don't keep them from driving. I don't bash them at every chance about their driving. Because it may not happen.
> *Besides that is how EVERY other hobby breeding pets operates. Animals look the same from all over(loes, ball, really most pythons, snakes, etc.) and they are brought in at different times from different areas.*
> You can try and make policy on prediciting the future but when you bash someone for their choices when you have no ac, generator, don't measure out your vits. etc. and hold a standard(going back to the wild) that you yourself don't match up to, it's WRONG.
> You are trying to narrowly define one thing withuot shedding light on what the hobby accepts every day.
> 
> Look at the pearls of wisdom thread and see that the founders were trying to set things in place to keep this place from becoming radcalized so that people could get along. Or maybe they felt that if it got to this point it would ruin the hobby no matter what!
> 
> Show me the "science" that you can stop people from producing hybrids! That';s the paper I want to see. Because tehre are 2 parts to your quandry, showing it's true and then convincing the other side to stop. If the science doesn't ccover both then someones not thinking right!


 That is what makes this little corner of the overall exotic oet hobby different or, dare I say, even special.


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## rigel10

Well, I wonder whether it is appropriate to talk about the scientific method in this respect - or, more than method, perhaps a scientific logic that authorizes to hybridize frogs. It seems to me that it is making an improper use of science. That's why I prefer to talk about ethics.
But at this point, I'm sorry, but the discussion is likely to be too complex,with too specialized terms for me to be able to well express myself.
If I need to reiterate it, I am against hybridization, mixing frogs and the like.


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## Aldross

rigel10 said:


> Well, I wonder whether it is appropriate to talk about the scientific method in this respect - or, more than method, perhaps a scientific logic that authorizes to hybridize frogs. It seems to me that it is making an improper use of science. That's why I prefer to talk about ethics.
> But at this point, I'm sorry, but the discussion is likely to be too complex,with too specialized terms for me to be able to well express myself.
> If I need to reiterate it, I am against hybridization, mixing frogs and the like.


I feel that it is one of be best ways to discuss this since I feel there is no question to the fact it is completely unethical to mix dendrobates. Amphibians show the strongest genetic differentiation between populations of all vertebrates. Genetic divergence can be found on the scale of meters. Outbreeding could lead to genetic parental incompatibility, and result in breakdown of co-adapted gene complexes, or production of intermediate phenotypes with less perfect local adaptation.
Now yes I know that these live in our little glass bubbles and they will never be put back into play. Regardless we should strive for the same genetic integrity that the wild counterparts display.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h096l64pbai8j0y/Outbreeding depression.pdf?dl=0


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## Dane

Aldross said:


> I also have a theory
> I'm starting to wonder if this thread is being trolled. Never have I met a science minded person who has this kind thought process.


I also find it interesting that Rick joined the conversation recently at a point when this thread was only seeing a post or two per week, and then he disappeared once it got rolling again. It makes me think that he might be operating under the, "any publicity is good publicity" mantra.


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## SwampMan

rigel10 said:


> Well, I wonder whether it is appropriate to talk about the scientific method in this respect - or, more than method, perhaps a scientific logic that authorizes to hybridize frogs. It seems to me that it is making an improper use of science. That's why I prefer to talk about ethics.
> But at this point, I'm sorry, but the discussion is likely to be too complex,with too specialized terms for me to be able to well express myself.
> If I need to reiterate it, I am against hybridization, mixing frogs and the like.



It seems that politics and PC have crept into science, blurring the distinction between right and wrong/is or isn't. Debating a point with all different scenarios added just to be PC has no place in science, imo, but that seems to be the 'new' science we are faced with these days. So, yes, imho, it does boil down to ethics too. If we are not solving a problem, are we creating one.


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## rigel10

I realize that I expressed myself badly, I mean misuse of science by those who justify hybridization.
@Aldross: Blessed words!
@Swampman: PC?


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## SwampMan

rigel10 said:


> I realize that I expressed myself badly, I mean misuse of science by those who justify hybridization.
> @Aldross: Blessed words!
> @Swampman: PC?


You expressed yourself just fine, Rigel10, I was just agreeing with your view on ethics.

PC= political correctness


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## rigel10

PC: here in Italy we have in abundance. Although here it is more Political Hypocrisy, I would say.


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## brendan0923

Roadrunner said:


> There are peer reviewed papers stating i could die in a car crash, so could my loved ones, but I don't keep them from driving. I don't bash them at every chance about their driving. Because it may not happen.
> Besides that is how EVERY other hobby breeding pets operates. Animals look the same from all over(loes, ball, really most pythons, snakes, etc.) and they are brought in at different times from different areas.
> You can try and make policy on prediciting the future but when you bash someone for their choices when you have no ac, generator, don't measure out your vits. etc. and hold a standard(going back to the wild) that you yourself don't match up to, it's WRONG.
> You are trying to narrowly define one thing withuot shedding light on what the hobby accepts every day.
> 
> Look at the pearls of wisdom thread and see that the founders were trying to set things in place to keep this place from becoming radcalized so that people could get along. Or maybe they felt that if it got to this point it would ruin the hobby no matter what!
> 
> Show me the "science" that you can stop people from producing hybrids! That';s the paper I want to see. Because tehre are 2 parts to your quandry, showing it's true and then convincing the other side to stop. If the science doesn't ccover both then someones not thinking right!


You're right, people can do what they want. Screw the system. Do what you want. Go drink and drive, nobody's stopping you. Sure, you might affect the lives of others in the car and on the road, but who's stopping you? There's no science that says anyone's stopping you.

I'm standing up for what I think is right. Not bashing or bullying someone. I am fully aware that people can do what they want. I can't use a jedi mind trick and get them to stop hybridizng frogs. I won't hate someone's guts for mixing frogs. But I still think it's wrong. Honestly, if USA Frog never addressed the forums, never used Lotters words improperly, and didn't try to justify their actions by taking personal stabs at people on the forum, there probably wouldn't be a long-as-hell thread with like 2000 posts on it. If people want to argue that hybridizing is right, be prepared for the counter-arguments. I might get a little fired up during a debate, but in all honesty I have no hard feelings torward anyone in this discussion.  I do, however, think that what USA Frog is doing is ETHICALLY wrong because there are POTENTIAL consequences for doing so. Why can't we err on the side of caution here, and say hybridizng frogs is WRONG until someone comes along with hard EVIDENCE as to why we are wrong? 

In response to your last part, many of us have provided hard evidence as to why we should not mix. It just either gets twisted or straight up ignored. For example, USA Frog continues to use the "a tinc is a tinc" thing, while members of the forum and several sources say that it really isn't that simple.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Barry Thomas

Brendan, Your analogy is completely outlandish. There is absolutely no comparison between drinking and driving and breeding frogs. This is absolute hyperbole. The legal and moral implications are so far removed from one another it would be laughable if it were not so pathetic. Anyone who thinks killing innocent people is in any way similar to the topic being discussed here should re-evalute their morality. This is a friendly and educational debate, there is no reason to devolve into such ridiculous comparisons.


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## brendan0923

Barry Thomas said:


> Brendan, Your analogy is completely outlandish. There is absolutely no comparison between drinking and driving and breeding frogs. This is absolute hyperbole. The legal and moral implications are so far removed from one another it would be laughable if it were not so pathetic. Anyone who thinks killing innocent people is in any way similar to the topic being discussed here should re-evalute their morality. This is a friendly and educational debate, there is no reason to devolve into such ridiculous comparisons.


It may be an extreme example, but I can take that logic and apply it to anything. My point stands regardless. By ignoring everything that every scientist on here has said, every piece of evidence, every ethical concern, and selfishly hybridizing frogs, you are, whether you believe it or not, affecting the well-being of your frogs, others' frogs, and other keepers by doing so. We should not be allowed to do whatever we want with these living creatures just because we can.

If you absolutley have to, go ahead. Nobody's stopping you. But if you want to argue with me that it is the right thing to do, I'm going to come with a counter-argument.

I apologize if that was too extreme of an example.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Barry Thomas

Brendan, I am not arguing with you. i actually agree that hybrid frog are bad, but your comparison is ridiculous and does nothing to further an intelligent debate.


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## brendan0923

Barry Thomas said:


> Brendan, I am not arguing with you. i actually agree that hybrid frog are bad, but your comparison is ridiculous and does nothing to further an intelligent debate.


You're right. Got a little carried away. I apologize. I was attempting to say that just because you can do something, doesn't necessarily make it right. Yes, people of course can do what they want, but sometimes people also fail to see possible consequences with their actions, and I was trying to make an example with driving intoxicated. Clearly hybridizng frogs is not akin to drunk driving, I just got a little too fired up and wanted to prove my point on the ethics of the situation. My bad.

Edit: For further clarification, I was trying to use a hypothetical "you" not a literal "you." Wow I was fired up when I wrote that response!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Ed

Tzunu'un said:


> *Great, I take this that you Tardis101 are supporting that USA Frogs, etc. should not be misleading people by making this claim*.....which perhaps could be interpreted as a marketing ploy.
> 
> But, I didn't appreciate the wink reponse and that you feel that they have anecdotal evidence in house to support their claim.....really?
> Do you really think that they have this data ? or could this be another ploy or attempt to diminish that you stated that their claim is not supportable?


Did you miss this statement where Dart frog Warehouse is "correcting" deficits through the creation of hybrids? 



tardis101 said:


> However, once you weed through all of the marketing/TM stuff isn't that exactly what USA dart frogs are addressing? If they are mixing morphs that are not closely related (related I mean to other frogs imported into the hobby) and they are producing individual frogs with brighter color, larger individuals, or whatever and even experts can't tell those frogs from pure morphs then it sounds like they have produced frogs that at least look like their wild morph cousins.


Some comments 

Ed


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## Aldross

There is nothing wrong with using an analogy even one as extreme as given. It is only a means to convey a statement. It is also a correct one. The bottom line of it was one will do as they please and the message of it was understood. You should never apologize for expressing you opinion in your own words. 
As far as comments doing nothing to further the discussion. Barry, yours brought nothing to the table rather than to complain because you didn't care for the words chosen. Yes I am well aware that this post brings nothing to the conversation but I hate seeing whiners push people to recant.


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## Ed

Aldross said:


> I also have a theory
> I'm starting to wonder if this thread is being trolled. Never have I met a science minded person who has this kind thought process.
> What I don't understand is that following the true scientific method if you are to say something is wrong then it is your requirement to substitute it with a more plausible model. Then to say that you are not required to prove your point but the is fact you are. That's under-playing the fact that a good theory has been tested many times, and it's quibbling to act is if there's a serious chance that it's incorrect (especially if you're not actively working on a better theory that also explains just how the old theory managed to survive so long). If you cannot support your claim then it will always be discounted. The current model of out-breeding depression has so far withstood the test of time and adheres to all rules of nature. Real work gets done precisely because a theory has held up, and that's the thing that makes a theory worthwhile.


I've been wondering this as well for quite a bit now. 

Claims to have read the thread but getting points incorrect for example, using an incorrect definition of hybrid (even though it has been repeatedly defined in the thread with citations), failing to check whether or not the references he posts actually support his point. Continual attempts to limit what is acceptable proof provided by others, double standards and other issues with the argument, claims that others are putting words in their mouth despite the evidence to the contrary..... . All of these point heavily towards the idea that the thread is being trolled. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Barry Thomas

Aldross said:


> There is nothing wrong with using an analogy even one as extreme as given. It is only a means to convey a statement. It is also a correct one. The bottom line of it was one will do as they please and the message of it was understood. You should never apologize for expressing you opinion in your own words.
> As far as comments doing nothing to further the discussion. Barry, yours brought nothing to the table rather than to complain because you didn't care for the words chosen. Yes I am well aware that this post brings nothing to the conversation but I hate seeing whiners push people to recant.


Jesse,

I agree there is nothing wrong with using an analogy. However, you are wrong, this is not a correct one. The poster was comparing an illegal activity that can result with a felony conviction with a legal ethical dilemma. Not the same.

I am thankful that I did not resort to calling people names (whiner).


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## edwardsatc

Ed said:


> I've been wondering this as well for quite a bit now.
> 
> Claims to have read the thread but getting points incorrect for example, using an incorrect definition of hybrid (even though it has been repeatedly defined in the thread with citations), failing to check whether or not the references he posts actually support his point. Continual attempts to limit what is acceptable proof provided by others, double standards and other issues with the argument, claims that others are putting words in their mouth despite the evidence to the contrary..... . All of these point heavily towards the idea that the thread is being trolled.
> 
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Additionally, the most of tardis101 activity has been in mixing/hybrid threads ...

And, indeed, he appears to have taken a stand on mixing:



tardis101 said:


> *The concern with mixing frogs is a hot topic here. There will be a lot of opinions. Mine tends not to be in the majority.* Nice tank! I have a tank that size, looks like the same one even. I have a couple taller plants (philodendron and an anthurium)....


then, later in thread, reverses his opinion:



tardis101 said:


> *Well again there are basically two sets of opinions. No and yes. I am in the Yes you can mix them camp. When someone provides evidence that there is a biological problem with doing it I will reevaluate my opinion, but so far that hasn't happened.*


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## Aldross

Barry Thomas said:


> Jesse,
> 
> I agree there is nothing wrong with using an analogy. However, you are wrong, this is not a correct one. The poster was comparing an illegal activity that can result with a felony conviction with a legal ethical dilemma. Not the same.
> 
> I am thankful that I did not resort to calling people names (whiner).


The morality of of the analogy is not to be the focus. Again.


> It is also a correct one. *The bottom line of it was one will do as they please and the message of it was understood.*


Edit: I'm done with the derailment. If you have anything to add please talk to me in another format. I won't respond to further comments on this matter here.


----------



## Tzunu'un

Ed said:


> Did you miss this statement where Dart frog Warehouse is "correcting" deficits through the creation of hybrids?


Thanks for pointing that out Ed.
What "deficits" are they correcting?
Oh I guess that they aren't BFF's 

The BFF thing makes me think of "One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest" ..... just hope it doesn't involve pithing.




Ed said:


> I've been wondering this as well for quite a bit now.
> 
> Claims to have read the thread but getting points incorrect for example, using an incorrect definition of hybrid (even though it has been repeatedly defined in the thread with citations), failing to check whether or not the references he posts actually support his point. Continual attempts to limit what is acceptable proof provided by others, double standards and other issues with the argument, claims that others are putting words in their mouth despite the evidence to the contrary..... . All of these point heavily towards the idea that the thread is being trolled.


I was getting the same feeling.

Well, it may be a coincidence but the TARDIS is from Doctor Who.

Makes you wonder ....Doctor Who? (Actually , I think Tardis has been asked this a couple of times)


From the first Doctor Who episode "An Unearthly Child"

*SUSAN:* The TARDIS can go anywhere.

*BARBARA:* TARDIS? I don't understand you, Susan.

*SUSAN:* Well, I made up the name TARDIS from the initials. Time And Relative Dimension In Space. I’d thought you both would understand when you saw the different dimensions inside from those outside.



If there is trolling going on, wouldn't the mods be able to look into this?
They must have access to more info than what board members have.


----------



## phender

Ed said:


> I've been wondering this as well for quite a bit now.
> 
> Claims to have read the thread but getting points incorrect for example, using an incorrect definition of hybrid (even though it has been repeatedly defined in the thread with citations), failing to check whether or not the references he posts actually support his point. Continual attempts to limit what is acceptable proof provided by others, double standards and other issues with the argument, claims that others are putting words in their mouth despite the evidence to the contrary..... . All of these point heavily towards the idea that the thread is being trolled.
> 
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I thought the same thing for the same reasons, but if you google tardis101, he appears to be a real person and not someone just made up for this thread.
That doesn't mean he's not trolling, but he does appear to be a real person at least.


----------



## Aldross

The fact that is can be found on Google doesn't mean much. Mines all over Google and only one is me. It's my vendor feedback thread here and I have been using this handle since 2003. It's odd when someone claims all these things about their expertise but won't even give their name. We are a close knit hobby. At least 80% of active handles on here I know the names of. It's our camaraderie that makes our hobby better than most


----------



## tardis101

My, I feel like I've engaged the Borg.  I had a 10 hour day today so I'm not going to stay long here today but I do feel compelled to respond to a couple things. Then I'm going to go watch some Star Trek...maybe even Doctor Who.

A few folks are implying (thinly veiled) that I'm a troll, a poor scientist/biologist, or unethical because I don't hold the view of the majority. As I said when I stepped into this discussion, it was probably a mistake. I had been warned a number of times about the single mindedness of some members and tenancy to attack people who don't tow the line. At 43 years old, I rarely tow the line anymore just because that's the easy way. I often step right in the middle of it sort of speak. Sometimes that goes well and sometimes not so well. 

I don't think I've attacked anyone (if I did I apologize as that was sincerely not my intent). I also didn't question anyone's job qualifications or background. I didn't even go there on ethics until pushed several times to say what I thought was ethical. But that doesn't seem to have stopped others from resorting to insults and name calling. But that's life and that's the internet. If one doesn't have a thick enough skin for it, then we ought not to be here.

I'm actually very proud of what I do. For those who care, even though I said I wouldn't do it, i work for the US. Fish and Wildlife Service implementing the federal Endangered Species Act in northern California. I (try) to protect threatened and endangered species every day from people who want to pave over them. Some days it doesn't turn out as bad as others. I'm not always successful, but when I am it's a really great feeling to know you've helped preserve some corner of the world and one less animal (or plant) is bulldozed over.



edwardsatc said:


> Additionally, the most of tardis101 activity has been in mixing/hybrid threads ...
> 
> And, indeed, he appears to have taken a stand on mixing:
> 
> then, later in thread, reverses his opinion:


Yes most of my activity has been on this thread, I didn't think that was a crime. I've been a member for a few years, just reading mostly care sheets and looking at the pictures of people frogs and vivs, thinking I haven't made anything nearly as pretty as some of the astonishingly beautiful ones posted here. But I'll keep trying, hopefully I'll improve and be proud to post a photo of them some day. The two posts of mine quoted above are not reversed opinions. I phrased them differently, but I meant the same thing. I didn't mean it to look duplicitous. As I think I've said, I don't mix my frogs, and I don't want to. However, personally I don't think mixing morphs has deleterious effects to the frogs. Personally I think it's predominately a matter of opinion.


----------



## tardis101

Ed said:


> I've been wondering this as well for quite a bit now.
> 
> Claims to have read the thread but getting points incorrect for example, using an incorrect definition of hybrid (even though it has been repeatedly defined in the thread with citations), failing to check whether or not the references he posts actually support his point. Continual attempts to limit what is acceptable proof provided by others, double standards and other issues with the argument, claims that others are putting words in their mouth despite the evidence to the contrary..... . All of these point heavily towards the idea that the thread is being trolled.
> 
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


opps This one missed my attention, I didn't realize how insulting it was when I made my last post; plus I've halfway through Best of Both Worlds and was feeling reinvigorated. 

I didn't use the incorrect definition of hybrid as I was taught in college. Simply because it was used one way here didn't mean that was right. I did re-examine the definition after talking to a geneticist at work and I owned my mistake in this thread. I also didn't say USA frogs was correcting deficits, I was asking a question. I did read the posts here and the fact that I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm wrong. Nor does it mean any of the above mentioned things you said about me are right. I also didn't fail to check my references. Just because you or someone else didn't get the point I was making doesn't mean I failed to check something. It might mean I failed to explain it adequately. But that shouldn't mean I get to be treated the way you've been treating me.


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## rigel10

@Tardis101: Great respect for you and your qualifications, but according with your job, I do not understand some of your posts, which seem to me to contradict the work you are doing. It could be that I have misunderstood the meaning of your posts. I don't know. If I am wrong, I apologize.


----------



## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> My, I feel like I've engaged the Borg.  I had a 10 hour day today so I'm not going to stay long here today but I do feel compelled to respond to a couple things. Then I'm going to go watch some Star Trek...maybe even Doctor Who.
> 
> A few folks are implying (thinly veiled) that I'm a troll, a poor scientist/biologist, or unethical because I don't hold the view of the majority. As I said when I stepped into this discussion, it was probably a mistake. I had been warned a number of times about the single mindedness of some members and tenancy to attack people who don't tow the line. At 43 years old, I rarely tow the line anymore just because that's the easy way. I often step right in the middle of it sort of speak. Sometimes that goes well and sometimes not so well.
> 
> I don't think I've attacked anyone (if I did I apologize as that was sincerely not my intent). I also didn't question anyone's job qualifications or background. I didn't even go there on ethics until pushed several times to say what I thought was ethical. But that doesn't seem to have stopped others from resorting to insults and name calling. But that's life and that's the internet. If one doesn't have a thick enough skin for it, then we ought not to be here.
> 
> I'm actually very proud of what I do. For those who care, even though I said I wouldn't do it, i work for the US. Fish and Wildlife Service implementing the federal Endangered Species Act in northern California. I (try) to protect threatened and endangered species every day from people who want to pave over them. Some days it doesn't turn out as bad as others. I'm not always successful, but when I am it's a really great feeling to know you've helped preserve some corner of the world and one less animal (or plant) is bulldozed over.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes most of my activity has been on this thread, I didn't think that was a crime. I've been a member for a few years, just reading mostly care sheets and looking at the pictures of people frogs and vivs, thinking I haven't made anything nearly as pretty as some of the astonishingly beautiful ones posted here. But I'll keep trying, hopefully I'll improve and be proud to post a photo of them some day. The two posts of mine quoted above are not reversed opinions. I phrased them differently, but I meant the same thing. I didn't mean it to look duplicitous. As I think I've said, I don't mix my frogs, and I don't want to. However, personally I don't think mixing morphs has deleterious effects to the frogs. Personally I think it's predominately a matter of opinion.


I don't think anyone is trying to attack you. If I ever came off that way, I apologize. Everything I'm saying in this thread is my opinion. I enjoy debating and I, admittedly, sometimes get caught up in the debate and I get a little intense, however it is nothing personal at all. And quite honestly, I think we can all come together and just enjoy our frogs because at the end of the day, we are all animal nerds arguing about frogs over the internet.

But at the same time, many of us here are arguing for a purpose, not just to argue. I'm not trying to bully anybody, hurt anybody, etc. I am arguing against hybridization because I believe it to be ethically wrong. And I know people can do what they want, so if you want to mix/hybridize, you absolutey can. Just beware of the possible consequences, because no matter what, you are affecting, whether positively or negatively, other people's collections when doing so (Which, by the way, is what I was saying before with my analogy. It was NOT a moral comparison). Unless you keep all the offspring, but not a lot of people have the time or money to do that.

Evidence has been provided. The science is there, whether one believes it or not. Tardis101, you are right in saying there is no direct evidence to show that outbreeding depression happens in dart frogs (at least to my knowledge). However, the evidence that has been provided is enough to show that it is a possibility, therefore many agree that mixing/hybridizing is a bad idea and unethical, as it could have negative effects on the animals as well as keepers themselves. You can say this is single-mindedness if you want, however I myself have still not seen significant proof that hybridizing is harmless. In fact, this conversation has solidified my belief.

However I am concerned that evidence here is being ignored, and arguments are being twisted to distract from the actual point. This conversation seems to either goes around in circles or ends up being distracted by something else. I feel that I have argued my point several times over, but perhaps my argument is not sufficient enough to persuade anybody in this discussion. Either way, I hope we can continue the discussion with as little hostility as possible.

Also, Tardis101, I was trying to get you to answer the question merely to gain perspective on your point of view. No other reason. 



Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Roadrunner

Of course you didn't read what Brent Brock said answering that first post about registering your frogs or anything about people getting along in the hobby. Maybe read the WHOLE THING? If they are a business and people buy from them they are part of the hobby. Unless of course anyone who sells frogs is a business, tehn it would keep some of you from being part of the "hobby" and maybe there is a conflict of interest?. There is a difference between sticking up for your beliefs and what y'all are doing. When you start to try and drive them out of business you have crossed the line of sticking up for your beliefs.

And hybrids can be better suited to captivity then your frogs so.... It seems to me like it's a draw. 


TarantulaGuy said:


> The very first post in that thread is "I will not create or introduce hybrids into the hobby." What, exactly, is the point you're trying to make? We can't stop a person from breeding hybrids on their own, obviously. That being said, there is definitely a possibility of stopping a BUSINESS from doing that, if enough of their customer base is informed that hybrid frogs are extremely frowned upon in this hobby. That, ultimately I believe, is the goal of this thread. If they can't move stock, then they're going to have to close up shop, instead of flooding the market with ridiculous frogs with ridiculous names and ridiculous lineages.


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## Roadrunner

The "founders" set up 2 or 3 registration systems with some of my money and a lot of their hard work and effort. You say USA frogs flipped the bird to you and the "hobby"? Well karmas a bitch ain't it! If you would've listened to the "founders" there would've been no need for this thread or attitude. Look it up in the pearls of wisdom, it's spelled out right there.

If your hobby makes you hate other PEOPLE then you're doing it wrong.


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## big_frog

I honestly don't have a problem with them creating or breeding hybrids nor do I have a problem with them creating a business out of frogs after all we do live in a free society. The problem I have is their approving or promoting continued breeding of these frogs. If they marketed them as display only animals I wouldn't have a problem with their practices.


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## epiphytes etc.

Roadrunner said:


> The "founders" set up 2 or 3 registration systems with some of my money and a lot of their hard work and effort. You say USA frogs flipped the bird to you and the "hobby"? Well karmas a bitch ain't it! If you would've listened to the "founders" there would've been no need for this thread or attitude. Look it up in the pearls of wisdom, it's spelled out right there.
> 
> If your hobby makes you hate other PEOPLE then you're doing it wrong.


Well, I can't really argue with this. Like some others have said before, I really wish I had taken ASN more seriously (frogtracks was a bit before my time).


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## carola1155

epiphytes etc. said:


> Well, I can't really argue with this. Like some others have said before, I really wish I had taken ASN more seriously (frogtracks was a bit before my time).


This is the problem with the argument. Frogtracks is a bit before most people's time. The system was barely in use when I got in the hobby in 2007. First mention I see of the system is by Rob Melancon in 2005... so it was 2 years old at that point. I remember looking for information about it early on so I could register my frogs and getting absolutely nowhere. To me, it seemed like an inflexible and unrealistic system to be applying to a hobby. With all due respect to Rob for trying, it failed for a reason: People never began to put value on the lineage information.

Now, to blame everyone currently in the hobby for something that failed 8 years ago is ridiculous and getting REALLY old. _Especially_ when the person doing most of the blaming did lots of selling and very little listing of lineage in their ads. Can't really harp on people for not tracking lineage when you didn't even list it in 90% of your own ads. If you couldn't be bothered to be typing it up and showing the importance of it in your own ads, why would you expect other people to take it seriously? Pot, meet kettle.

In all seriousness though, instead of focusing on what other people did in the past... we have to take the hobby for what it is now. Like it or not, things are not as perfect as the "founders" would have liked them to be. Get over it. Move on. Lets deal with what we can deal with now. 

We need to push the hobby to put value on lineage information. People should WANT to pay a premium for these things. Attach a value to it, and I guarantee people will start paying more attention to it. I cringe every time I see people list their ads with ZERO information about the frogs. The suggested format is there for everyone to see. Use it. Put value on it. Make lineage important in your purchases. Present it as though it is important when you are selling the frogs. Then we won't have to worry about what other people do with their frogs.


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## brendan0923

Roadrunner said:


> The "founders" set up 2 or 3 registration systems with some of my money and a lot of their hard work and effort. You say USA frogs flipped the bird to you and the "hobby"? Well karmas a bitch ain't it! If you would've listened to the "founders" there would've been no need for this thread or attitude. Look it up in the pearls of wisdom, it's spelled out right there.
> 
> If your hobby makes you hate other PEOPLE then you're doing it wrong.


I agree, Roadrunner, we probably should've implemented a registering system. That would probably alleviate a few of the issues with hybrids. I still think hybridization is wrong, but at least a registration system would help tremendously. 

I still don't think hybridizing is right and we should still avoid it as much as possible. However if evidence comes out suggesting that it is actually OK and there are no harmful effects, cool. But until then, I don't think it should be done. 
But honestly, my beef with USA Frog is like my dislike for other companies; I strongly disagree with their business practices and I don't want to see those practices succeed. It's not that I wish bad on anyone personally, or really USA Frog itself, I just do not want those practices to continue. I would rather see them either change their ways or just stop with the justifications and pseudo-science and just do their thing. The constant justification, misrepresentation of evidence, etc. is what truly bothers me. I am against hybrids, yes, but I'm really against the other things about USA Frog that has been discussed before in this thread. I don't hate anybody that mixes/hybridizes, nor do I hate the people behind USA Frog; that is a rather big assumption to make, wouldn't you say? I do disagree with hybridizng as a whole and USA Frog's business practices, but I do not hate anybody that breeds hybrids or mixes.




Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Boondoggle

Roadrunner said:


> Maybe read the WHOLE THING? If they are a business and people buy from them they are part of the hobby. Unless of course anyone who sells frogs is a business, tehn it would keep some of you from being part of the "hobby" and maybe there is a conflict of interest?. There is a difference between sticking up for your beliefs and what y'all are doing. When you start to try and drive them out of business you have crossed the line of sticking up for your beliefs.


I'm confused as to how you could have read the whole thread and missed the literally dozens, if not hundreds, of posts appealing to DFW to adjust their business model, not quit...just adjust. Honestly it's only their own hubris that has prevented them from completely owning the tinctorius market. Had they taken their initial capitol and determination and been responsible with their practices and outlandish claims they would be in a drastically different situation. Do you think they are selling large juveniles for $13 because things are going _well_ over there? 

I can totally understand why people would come to this forum and not agree with the herd. At a glance I can completely understand it looking like a roomful of codgers bullying someone just because they have new ideas. Anyone who's actually read the facts in this thread, though, should know better. Let me ask the defenders of DFW something...If you take hybrids out of the equation entirely, how do you feel about all the misinformation over there aimed at duping the uninformed? Is that cool with you? I could recap those points but they've been listed repeatedly already. If there was a store in your neighborhood that followed their business practices would you let your friends go there without warning them? Would you feel like they should stay in business? 



Roadrunner said:


> And hybrids can be better suited to captivity then your frogs so....


That's an interesting claim. Can you elaborate?


----------



## edwardsatc

Appears to be more deception from the franken-factory.

They are now apparently attempting to market, what were previously identified as mixed morph frogs, as variations of known morphs. For example, under the category Regina, they are selling “Honeybee, platinum legged Regina” which as previously marketed as a mixed morph frog. 



”USAFrog.com website” said:


> HONEYBEE-AM, Platinum legged regina - Juvenile (3-4 mos. old)
> HONEYBEE frogs have warm and sweet appearance. From their candy coated looking legs to the soft glow of their yellow-orange-gold back makes this frog a super-soothing pet. The markings are well placed and perfectly balanced. Superb highlights too!
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.



Many others examples can be found on the current version of the website (e.g. azureus and sipaliwini).

Oddly, those that support the franken-factory's hybridization never seem to want to comment on the unethical manner in which the frogs are being marketed ...


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## SwampMan

edwardsatc said:


> Oddly, those that support the franken-factory's hybridization never seem to want to comment on the unethical manner in which the frogs are being marketed ...


It's all about 8 Y/Os with their own frog rooms and YT "unboxing" vids.


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## jimmy rustles

So why exactly is everybody acting like the ship has sailed for the registry system? why not start sth now, that everybody sees more of a need for it ?

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9195I mit Tapatalk


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## Dendro Dave

Roadrunner said:


> Of course you didn't read what Brent Brock said answering that first post about registering your frogs or anything about people getting along in the hobby. Maybe read the WHOLE THING? If they are a business and people buy from them they are part of the hobby. Unless of course anyone who sells frogs is a business, tehn it would keep some of you from being part of the "hobby" and maybe there is a conflict of interest?. There is a difference between sticking up for your beliefs and what y'all are doing. When you start to try and drive them out of business you have crossed the line of sticking up for your beliefs.
> 
> And hybrids can be better suited to captivity then your frogs so.... It seems to me like it's a draw.


If you don't like how a business operates, especially if you take issue with their ethics, and they do nothing to change... why not? Other then trying to get them out of the hobby, what else is left but to just roll over?

People make their case, protest, boycott/etc..etc... , and encourage others to do the same... Or are you again lumping us all in with a few that may have went to far in your mind?


If we were arguing for MJ legalization my guess is you'd be right there with us, making signs, burning DEA agent voodoo dolls in effigy, but since you don't see things from our point of view "We've gone to far".

How come you get to use most all the same tactics and/or arguments that are structured the same, but it is only "to far" when it is us?


How come we're responsible for the hobby failing to adopt wide spread frog tracking and this USAfrog mess, but USAfrog isn't accountable to us for any of their actions? I don't think I'm the only one that finds fault in that logic. 


I'm baffled why you and they seem to get special exempt status when it comes to accountability, hypocrisy, and/or credibility. Because of your "one can't bully many" argument made on dart den? ...Well that logic is flawed, because...

1. A big kid can bully several smaller ones. Happens on playgrounds and in prisons every day.

and...

2. There is actually Rick and the kids; so it isn't one verse many. It's a few vs many, or depending on who you believe it may be a minority vs a smaller minority. 


Why not just give us the real argument: 

_*I want designer dart frogs and I don't understand (or care?) how that could possibly effect other people, so I want them...and I want them now!*_


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> Appears to be more deception from the franken-factory.
> 
> They are now apparently attempting to market, what were previously identified as mixed morph frogs, as variations of known morphs. For example, under the category Regina, they are selling “Honeybee, platinum legged Regina” which as previously marketed as a mixed morph frog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many others examples can be found on the current version of the website (e.g. azureus and sipaliwini).
> 
> Oddly, those that support the franken-factory's hybridization never seem to want to comment on the unethical manner in which the frogs are being marketed ...


It's not deception... "It's a valid business tactic" 

But seriously this is as big if not a bigger deal then the actual designer frogs, because they are marketing them as "real" morphs. 

I sincerely believe that at this point it is as much about flipping off the hobby as it is making a buck for them.


----------



## tardis101

Dendro Dave said:


> Why not just give us the real argument:
> 
> _*I want designer dart frogs and I don't understand (or care?) how that could possibly effect other people, so I want them...and I want them now!*_


Are you implying that this is Roadrunner's argument when it doesn't appear that he's said that here (unless you're bringing in something said in another venue)? I sure hope not, because if so that looks to be common tactic in this thread. Make it look like someone said something that others will be offended by. The pool fool will then have to spend time defending something they didn't say because if they don't people are going to assume that they did say it.

Accountability and fairness depends a lot on perspective and who's setting the rules. It sounds like a small number of folks here want to make up all the rules for the whole hobby, and if someone doesn't agree with the rules or play them they are ridiculed, insulted, and/or shunned.


----------



## Barry Thomas

This is obviously a very passionate issue for many people on this forum. Sometimes passions can cause normally rational people to lash out and speak irrationally. The name calling and insane accusations are getting ridiculous. 

Lets for a moment try something new. Look at this from a different angle. Instead of worrying about what USAfrog or others are doing, let's discuss what we CAN do, and look to other hobbies with similar concerns and what they have done. 

The Green Tree Python hobby is somewhat similar. Many people are very interested in keeping locality specific snakes and breeding as true as possible to those lines. Others are interested in the designer snakes. Both groups work well together and this animosity is not present. Those who are interested in locality specific specimens keep detailed records of the history of the animals in their collection and make that information available to potential buyers. I have never had a hard time finding a sorong, biak, or whatever type I was interested in. 

If it is important to you to be able to purchase frogs from someone you can trust to provide "pure" bloodlines, continue to purchase from the trusted sources you already purchase from. Most of the top vendors have stated they will not hybridize their frogs. I am sure Josh's, Saurian, Herpetologic, and all the others will continue to provide great frogs to the hobby. 

If you wish to be a producer of "pure" line frogs. Do the same as the these others have done. Develop a reputation through providing healthy, quality animals and great customer service. 

I truly do not see the overwhelming obstacles to keeping a viable population of locality specific frogs separate from the designer counterparts. Other branches of the reptile hobby have been able to do so, when it was important to the people of the hobby. 

If you find fault in my logic, let me know, but please try to address solutions rather than more name calling and insults. 

FYI...I do not own or plan to own any hybrid frogs, but I have no problem with someone else owning them. It is not my place to tell others what they can and cannot do.


----------



## brendan0923

Barry Thomas said:


> This is obviously a very passionate issue for many people on this forum. Sometimes passions can cause normally rational people to lash out and speak irrationally. The name calling and insane accusations are getting ridiculous.
> 
> Lets for a moment try something new. Look at this from a different angle. Instead of worrying about what USAfrog or others are doing, let's discuss what we CAN do, and look to other hobbies with similar concerns and what they have done.
> 
> The Green Tree Python hobby is somewhat similar. Many people are very interested in keeping locality specific snakes and breeding as true as possible to those lines. Others are interested in the designer snakes. Both groups work well together and this animosity is not present. Those who are interested in locality specific specimens keep detailed records of the history of the animals in their collection and make that information available to potential buyers. I have never had a hard time finding a sorong, biak, or whatever type I was interested in.
> 
> If it is important to you to be able to purchase frogs from someone you can trust to provide "pure" bloodlines, continue to purchase from the trusted sources you already purchase from. Most of the top vendors have stated they will not hybridize their frogs. I am sure Josh's, Saurian, Herpetologic, and all the others will continue to provide great frogs to the hobby.
> 
> If you wish to be a producer of "pure" line frogs. Do the same as the these others have done. Develop a reputation through providing healthy, quality animals and great customer service.
> 
> I truly do not see the overwhelming obstacles to keeping a viable population of locality specific frogs separate from the designer counterparts. Other branches of the reptile hobby have been able to do so, when it was important to the people of the hobby.
> 
> If you find fault in my logic, let me know, but please try to address solutions rather than more name calling and insults.
> 
> FYI...I do not own or plan to own any hybrid frogs, but I have no problem with someone else owning them. It is not my place to tell others what they can and cannot do.


I agree to a certain extent. The problem, however, is that hybrid frogs probably do affect other people's collections, and other hobbies, such as the leopard gecko hobby, also have discussions on issues similar to this as well. 

I don't think the solution to this problem is simple. I do not think we can have hybrids without it having any impact on pure lines. Many leopard gecko hobbyists often try their hardest to discourage mixing albinos and inbreeding, yet it still happens and it still affects other people's collections without them realizing it until their leos develop overbites, kinks in their tail, neurological disorders, etc.

In addition, arguments have been made not only for "pure lines," but the health of the animals as well. If outbreeding depression proves to decrease fitness in later generation offspring, then we won't know until the damage has already been done. In my opinion, it is reckless to assume that there are no problems until there are. Humans always seem to think they know what's best; that they are above nature. Yet issues such as global warming, species extinction, habitat loss, etc. are some issues possibly caused by this exact arrogance.

Correspondingly, I don't think there is anything wrong with not wanting hybrids or others to produce hybrids. Many think that hybridization is potentially dangerous for the animals, and there is evidence to suggest that it may be. Time and time again, it has been stated that this problem is not as easy as "well I do it my way, you do it your way," because it could affect not only the animals but other people and their animals as well.

Another analogy would be smoking. I don't care if one smokes. If one wants to smoke, that's their choice. Cool. Good for that guy/gal. However, if they come up to me and argue that smoking is good for them, and try to smoke in my house with kids in the house, I will definitley stand up for what I think is right, and tell them why they shouldn't smoke or why they at least shouldn't do it around other people. I understand that smoking ≠ breeding frogs, but put that aside for a moment and understand what I'm saying please. If somebody breeds hybrids and keeps them as pets and doesn't breed them, fine. I disagree with it, but I can't do anything about it. Now try to decieve people into thinking it's not a hybrid/not providing info about the frog, or argue about why they're right, now I'm gonna argue. 

I agree, we shouldn't name call or bash someone for what they believe. I don't believe I'm doing any of that, but if I came off that way I apologize. Now that we seem to agree on that, let's move forward with the discussion.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> Are you implying that this is Roadrunner's argument when it doesn't appear that he's said that here (unless you're bringing in something said in another venue)? I sure hope not, because if so that looks to be common tactic in this thread. Make it look like someone said something that others will be offended by. The pool fool will then have to spend time defending something they didn't say because if they don't people are going to assume that they did say it.
> 
> Accountability and fairness depends a lot on perspective and who's setting the rules. *It sounds like a small number of folks here want to make up all the rules for the whole hobby, and if someone doesn't agree with the rules or play them they are ridiculed, insulted, and/or shunned*.


Kudos to you for summing up in one sentence the position and practices illustrated by DFW that's otherwise taken the last 53 pages to discuss.


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## Tzunu'un

I am against hybrid dart frogs, but I also feel that it is a choice (but not one I would choose to make).

However, I am definitely without a doubt against the possible marketing of hybrids without disclosing that they are hybrids.....this is just wrong.



edwardsatc said:


> Appears to be more deception from the franken-factory.
> 
> They are now apparently attempting to market, what were previously identified as mixed morph frogs, as variations of known morphs. For example, under the category Regina, they are selling “Honeybee, platinum legged Regina” which as previously marketed as a mixed morph frog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by ”USAFrog.com website”
> HONEYBEE-AM, Platinum legged regina - Juvenile (3-4 mos. old)
> HONEYBEE frogs have warm and sweet appearance. From their candy coated looking legs to the soft glow of their yellow-orange-gold back makes this frog a super-soothing pet. The markings are well placed and perfectly balanced. Superb highlights too!
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many others examples can be found on the current version of the website (e.g. azureus and sipaliwini).
> 
> Oddly, those that support the franken-factory's hybridization never seem to want to comment on the unethical manner in which the frogs are being marketed ...
Click to expand...


I have a question as I'm not familiar with the green tree python hobby and this was brought up an an example as to how to deal with this occuring.

Does anyone, especially an online retailer, allegedly market hybrid green tree pythons as pure lines or morphs of pure lines?
(and I'm not talking about hobby individuals that sell on a small scale through forums, etc.)

If not, then this cannot a valid comparison to the discussion at hand on how to handle the alleged issues.


If it does occur, then I would like to know which retailers allegedly sell these hybrid snakes as pure lines/morphs and how the snake hobby deals with these companies (disseminating information so that the public/customers are aware of what they are potentially getting).


Examples about individuals (as opposed to companies) are not a valid comparison to what is described above due to low volume / market penetrance, because they rely more on rep rather than online marketing strategies so customers will most likely make sure a private individual is trustworthy (do their homework), and finally these individuals usually sell through forums, etc. that have a vendor feedback section. This doesn't mean that this isn't also wrong as people could possibly be taken for a ride, but it isn't a valid comparison.


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## oldlady25715

This board is one of the few guiding compasses that make this hobby unique. The intent is to respect and promulgate the phenotypes nature has provided.--Why can't that be enough? Why do people have to mess with it? --for short term gain which is at the long-term expense of the hobby. Mixing of locales and species is exploitation of the nature and the work of decades of old timers who respect what has been given to us.

Those that hold to this tradition are passionate, and sometimes this passion overshadows prudent commentary, but taken as a whole, the information provided herein is somewhat of an institution. When new hobbyists cherry pick the information to exploit the hobby it is very abrasive and disrespectful. 

Lineage is important now more than ever for various reasons--hybridization, illegal lineages, ignorance etc. But its not acceptable to have a side-market of hybridized/designer frogs and think that its kosher. Analogies to geckos and pythons can be provided, but the bottom line is that they are not the same. 

individuals new to the hobby may think this is a witchhunt, or that old timers are out of touch with the times, but they are missing the point which is that what nature has given us is more than enough.

Its not a small number of individuals here who make up the rules, but it is those who have the courage to defend the integrity of decades of work of many individuals--most of whom do not post responses ton this board to the John Doe--flavor of the month newbie.


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## Dendro Dave

tardis101 said:


> Are you implying that this is Roadrunner's argument when it doesn't appear that he's said that here (unless you're bringing in something said in another venue)? I sure hope not, because if so that looks to be common tactic in this thread. Make it look like someone said something that others will be offended by. The pool fool will then have to spend time defending something they didn't say because if they don't people are going to assume that they did say it.


I'm implying that I think a significant part of the motivation for people on the other side is that they want something and they feel like we are in the way of them getting it, or in the way of it at least being acceptable. 

I think they down play or ignore the real and likely ramifications of the practice becoming more common... because they want it, and how it will effect the rest of hobby doesn't matter much to them, because they don't hold the same values.

I thought specifically asking for "the real argument", and then stating what I thought it is was, qualified as sufficiently different from putting words in his mouth.




tardis101 said:


> Accountability and fairness depends a lot on perspective and who's setting the rules. It sounds like a small number of folks here want to make up all the rules for the whole hobby, and if someone doesn't agree with the rules or play them they are ridiculed, insulted, and/or shunned.


Well I'll agree with the first sentence, but I think if you don't respect a community's standards, especially when said community was pretty polite in the beginning, and then went on to warn/predict that all this would happen and you still ignore those standards... that you basically bring the poop storm upon yourself. Plus this idea that USAfrog isn't giving just as good as their getting is a bit flawed, ask Lotters.

I'm really not getting the arguments that seem to excuse USAfrog from accountability for their actions, while indicting us for ours. 

If you want a designer frog hobby just say it, instead of supporting the company that seems to have lied to, misrepresented and disrespected the community. I mean honestly even if someone was pro franken frog I don't get how USAfrog is being defended by anyone given all the other offenses cataloged in this thread to date. 

They've basically broken every taboo just short of stealing. Should we not have some minimum standards that we hold a business to in this hobby? 

...and even if you do want a designer frog hobby, why would anyone trust USAfrog to pioneer that commercial niche?

Its the willingness to ignore everything they've done far beyond just the designer frog issue that makes me suspect that some people's motivations are not as pure as they'd like us to believe. Because the alternative is they just have unbelievable exceptionally low standards for a business operating in this hobby.


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## tardis101

Dendro Dave said:


> If you want a designer frog hobby just say it, instead of supporting the company that seems to have lied to, misrepresented and disrespected the community. I mean honestly even if someone was pro franken frog I don't get how USAfrog is being defended by anyone given all the other offenses cataloged in this thread to date.


You can "think" whatever you want of course. But I haven't seen anyone say they want a mixed morph frog. In fact I've seen several people, including myself specifically say we don't keep mixed tanks, we don't have mixed morphs, and we don't want mixed morphs. If you don't want to take us at our word that's fine. But you really need to stop staying we've said something or believe something that we didn't actually say and you are only wildly speculating on what we believe. 

If an earlier post (I forgot who said it) is correct and there is only a fraction of people saying anything about it at all and this forum only represents a small fraction of the hobby in general AND the majority of folks in the community appear to be completely silent on the topic, then I don't see how that can be called a community standard. It's still just a handful of people trying to make up rules for everyone.



Dendro Dave said:


> They've basically broken every taboo just short of stealing. Should we not have some minimum standards that we hold a business to in this hobby?


If you really want standards, then I'm sure there is a government agency (local, state, federal, or abroad) out there somewhere that is willing to set them for you. But I bet you wouldn't like what they came up with.


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## Celtic Aaron

I have one question right now that I would like advocates of hybrids (whether you personally keep them or not) to answer: Why can't nature's beauty and perfection be enough for us?


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## Dendro Dave

Barry Thomas said:


> This is obviously a very passionate issue for many people on this forum. Sometimes passions can cause normally rational people to lash out and speak irrationally. The name calling and insane accusations are getting ridiculous.
> 
> Lets for a moment try something new. Look at this from a different angle. Instead of worrying about what USAfrog or others are doing, let's discuss what we CAN do, and look to other hobbies with similar concerns and what they have done.
> 
> The Green Tree Python hobby is somewhat similar. Many people are very interested in keeping locality specific snakes and breeding as true as possible to those lines. Others are interested in the designer snakes. Both groups work well together and this animosity is not present. Those who are interested in locality specific specimens keep detailed records of the history of the animals in their collection and make that information available to potential buyers. I have never had a hard time finding a sorong, biak, or whatever type I was interested in.
> 
> If it is important to you to be able to purchase frogs from someone you can trust to provide "pure" bloodlines, continue to purchase from the trusted sources you already purchase from. Most of the top vendors have stated they will not hybridize their frogs. I am sure Josh's, Saurian, Herpetologic, and all the others will continue to provide great frogs to the hobby.
> 
> If you wish to be a producer of "pure" line frogs. Do the same as the these others have done. Develop a reputation through providing healthy, quality animals and great customer service.
> 
> I truly do not see the overwhelming obstacles to keeping a viable population of locality specific frogs separate from the designer counterparts. Other branches of the reptile hobby have been able to do so, when it was important to the people of the hobby.
> 
> If you find fault in my logic, let me know, but please try to address solutions rather than more name calling and insults.
> 
> FYI...I do not own or plan to own any hybrid frogs, but I have no problem with someone else owning them. It is not my place to tell others what they can and cannot do.


Well one thing we can do is try to prevent the wide spread dissemination of hybrid and/or mixed morph frogs (depending on what terminology you accept), by a business entity that is felt by many to be intentionally deceptive if not out right lying in their marketing. 

Seems to me that is as valid a way to "do something" as frog tracking, or any other tactic. 

There is already a fair amount of confusion in this hobby when it comes to species/morph, and then the issue of what to do with "unknown" frogs; but I'll concede that whether a designer frog hobby can coexist with the larger hobby or not is at least somewhat debatable. I however feel that we have enough documentation to support the idea that USAfrog is not particularly trustworthy as being much less open to debate. 

Since they are the driving force behind whatever designer frog movement there might be, doing what we can (within the law) to stand in their way is perfectly acceptable... if not a moral/ethical imperative. I mean they'd have us believe that designer frogs are a moral/ethical imperative, and are doing what they can to make that happen: so are we not at least as entitled? 

As for the GTP hobby, I'll have to take your world that "Both groups work well together and this animosity is not present." ...Somehow I doubt it is that simple, or at least was always that simple, and that hobby may be larger, with a larger pool of founder stock. Plus things might be very different for a new comer vs and old timer in that hobby. I don't personally feel like I'm in danger of not being able to find a pure morph frog any time soon, but I think the risk and potential damage to new comers to the hobby is very real. What we can say about the dart frog hobby for sure is that already some people seem to have less confidence in the integrity of the species/morphs USAfrog works with.

Real or imagined, that is a tangible impact they have already had on this hobby. This whole drama is a tangible impact, and doesn't inspire confidence (in me at least) that any designer frog niche isn't going to come with a lot of risks (and probably a lot more drama). So on the side of coexistence we have hope/wishful thinking, and possibly an example from another hobby? ...but on the side of not coexisting peacefully we already have real evidence that it will be problematic at best. The culture within this hobby has already proved itself to be a bit different from the rest of the herp world, and I'm not sure that "it worked for this/that hobby" is as valid an argument as some might believe.

I mean basically whatever side of the issue you are on, or personal opinion as to the degree of risk, at least the possibility of risk is very real, and asking us all to shoulder that burden so that what seems to be a minority can have their franken frogs, and that USAfrog be the ones allowed to usher in that new era...* is asking a lot*.


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## tardis101

Celtic Aaron said:


> I have one question right now that I would like advocates of hybrids (whether you personally keep them or not) to answer: Why can't nature's beauty and perfection be enough for us?


Who's advocating for mixed morph frogs? This is another example of what I mentioned before. An attempt to make it look like someone said something they didn't. I didn't see anyone say they were advocating FOR mixed morphs.


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## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> Who's advocating for mixed morph frogs? This is another example of what I mentioned before. An attempt to make it look like someone said something they didn't. I didn't see anyone say they were advocating FOR mixed morphs.


USA Frog and others arguing for mixed morphs on this thread.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## Dendro Dave

tardis101 said:


> You can "think" whatever you want of course. But I haven't seen anyone say they want a mixed morph frog. In fact I've seen several people, including myself specifically say we don't keep mixed tanks, we don't have mixed morphs, and we don't want mixed morphs. If you don't want to take us at our word that's fine. But you really need to stop staying we've said something or believe something that we didn't actually say and you are only wildly speculating on what we believe.


Point of fact I didn't actually say that is what they said, I just offered my opinion as to what might be in part motivating some to take the other side of the issue. Where as you just said I said that they said something that I didn't actually say they said (everyone follow that?  ). 

Now I'll give you the speculation, that I did and I'm ok with that since I tried to make it pretty obvious and felt it valid to call attention to that possibility.

But how about we not indict me for something I didn't actually do, when you just actually did that thing yourself?

"But you really need to stop staying we've said something or believe something that we didn't actually say "



tardis101 said:


> If an earlier post (I forgot who said it) is correct and there is only a fraction of people saying anything about it at all and this forum only represents a small fraction of the hobby in general AND the majority of folks in the community appear to be completely silent on the topic, then I don't see how that can be called a community standard. It's still just a handful of people trying to make up rules for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> If you really want standards, then I'm sure there is a government agency (local, state, federal, or abroad) out there somewhere that is willing to set them for you. But I bet you wouldn't like what they came up with.


Personally I feel that since the opposition to USAfrog that is speaking is so heavily skewed to our side, and that mixing morphs, or species, lying, or sleazy marketing has never really been a thing the majority has advocated around here, in fact quite the opposite... that we at least have strong evidence for a general consensus, which arguably amounts to a community standard since, arguably the forums and many of the prominent members of them have set the tone for the hobby over the years. 

Also while there may only be a few dozen active in this thread, and maybe a few hundered on the entire forum in recent days, we have over 10000 members, and from my experience in the hobby I have a hard time imagining this thread going much differently 5 years ago, or 8, or 10, even if it was happening on one of the other usa dart frog forums. 

Is all this proof there is a community standard? ...I don't know, but my entire time in the hobby leads me to believe there is one, and it seems a fair number agree with both that and the idea that USAfrog has fallen woefully short of it.

I don't get why the idea of a group or dare I say community policing itself to some degree is so foreign and/or offensive. And for the record I'm generally all for personal freedom but when exercising that personal freedom can have real effects on other people, say a community... I think it is at least worth debating the ethics/morality of doing it when so many are against it, and them doing it could have real consequences for who and what was there before they showed up to excercise their personal freedom, the community be damned.


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## tardis101

brendan0923 said:


> USA Frog and others arguing for mixed morphs on this thread.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


I doubt USA frog is going to say anything more here, but I could be wrong. Who specifically are the “others” arguing FOR mixed morphs?



Dendro Dave said:


> So I can think what I like, I just shouldn't say it? Oh and point of fact I didn't actually say that is what they said, I just offered my opinion as to what might be in part motivating some to take the other side of the issue. Where as you just said I said that they said something that I didn't actually say.
> 
> Now I'll give you the speculation, that I did and I'm ok with that since I tried to make it pretty obvious and felt it valid to call attention to that possibility.
> 
> But how about we not indict me for something I didn't actually do, when you just actually did that thing yourself?


Actually you did. Right here, it was only after I asked what you were implying did you clarify. Before that you stated it as if it were a fact.



Dendro Dave said:


> Why not just give us the real argument:
> 
> _*I want designer dart frogs and I don't understand (or care?) how that could possibly effect other people, so I want them...and I want them now!*_


Oh wait…that’s what’s happened to me and several others over and over here, we've had to clarify something because someone jumped down our throats saying we meant something that we didn't. How about we make a deal, we both try to refrain from putting words in others mouths and try to be clear when we are stating an opinion? I'm game


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## Celtic Aaron

tardis101 said:


> Who's advocating for mixed morph frogs? This is another example of what I mentioned before. An attempt to make it look like someone said something they didn't. I didn't see anyone say they were advocating FOR mixed morphs.


I feel like I am in court here . Semantics...I know that you are smart and probably know what I mean. I am not trying to put words into anyone's mouth. One side is arguing against hybrids while the other side is arguing for hybrids (or at least for the freedom to choose to breed hybrids without guilt). Is that fair? Either way, the question still stands: Why is it not enough? It is really not that difficult to answer. I just want people to dig deep and explain why they believe what they believe.


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## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> I doubt USA frog is going to say anything more here, but I could be wrong.


They did. Read through the forums, people have argued for it.


Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## tardis101

Dendro Dave said:


> Personally I feel that since the opposition to USAfrog that is speaking is so heavily skewed to our side, and that mixing morphs, or species, lying, or sleazy marketing has never really been a thing the majority has advocated around here, in fact quite the opposite... that we at least have strong evidence for a general consensus, which arguably amounts to a community standard since, arguably the forums and many of the prominent members of them have set the tone for the hobby over the years.


I don't think a few individuals being very vocal about hating mixed morphs means the community is heavily skewed to that side. Lying sleazy marketing I'll agree with ya there. I don't think they've done themselves any favors with their marketing. 



Dendro Dave said:


> I don't get why the idea of a group or dare I say community policing itself to some degree is so foreign and/or offensive. And for the record I'm generally all for personal freedom but when exercising that personal freedom can have real effects on other people, say a community... I think it is at least worth debating the ethics/morality of doing it when so many are against it, and them doing it could have real consequences for who and what was there before they showed up to excercise their personal freedom, the community be damned.


I don't think self policing is a bad idea at all. But not many seem willing to take up the mantel of establishing a registration/pedigree approval thingy (see how i got super technical there - that's supposed to be a joke I'm trying to inject some humor at 2 am.) that would really go a long way to solving this mixed morph problem (and even the hybrids between species that are floating around out there).


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## tardis101

brendan0923 said:


> They did. Read through the forums, people have argued for it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


So no one in this thread? That means asking the question in this thread is unlikely to get anyone an answer.


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## brendan0923

tardis101 said:


> So no one in this thread? That means asking the question in this thread is unlikely to get anyone an answer.


I meant the thread, sorry. Though other threads have been started on the topic.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


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## tardis101

Celtic Aaron said:


> I feel like I am in court here . Semantics...I know that you are smart and probably know what I mean. I am not trying to put words into anyone's mouth. One side is arguing against hybrids while the other side is arguing for hybrids (or at least for the freedom to choose to breed hybrids without guilt). Is that fair? Either way, the question still stands: Why is it not enough? It is really not that difficult to answer. I just want people to dig deep and explain why they believe what they believe.


Haha! you feel like you're in court I felt like I was about to be assimilated by the Borg.  Dude I'm super tired. Thankfully I'm off work tomorrow, but I'll try and take some time to put my thoughts down and try and be specific and more clear. Fair?


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## tardis101

brendan0923 said:


> I meant the thread, sorry. Though other threads have been started on the topic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


I've read the entire thread (although not the whole thing in the last week). I could be remembering wrong (i mean it is after 2 am and I worked another 10 hour day), but I don't remember anyone advocating FOR mixed morphs. I recall people saying they don't think they are a problem, but that's not the same as advocating for them.


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## Celtic Aaron

tardis101 said:


> Haha! you feel like you're in court I felt like I was about to be assimilated by the Borg.  Dude I'm super tired. Thankfully I'm off work tomorrow, but I'll try and take some time to put my thoughts down and try and be specific and more clear. Fair?


Fair enough...discussing anything at this hour is difficult


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## Dendro Dave

tardis101 said:


> Actually you did. Right here, it was only after I asked what you were implying did you clarify. Before that you stated it as if it were a fact.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wait…that’s what’s happened to me and several others over and over here, we've had to clarify something because someone jumped down our throats saying we meant something that we didn't. How about we make a deal, we both try to refrain from putting words in others mouths and try to be clear when we are stating an opinion? I'm game


In the context it was said I didn't think it qualified, but I can see how it could be construed as such and thus your point is fair... so agreed 





tardis101 said:


> I don't think a few individuals being very vocal about hating mixed morphs means the community is heavily skewed to that side. Lying sleazy marketing I'll agree with ya there. I don't think they've done themselves any favors with their marketing.


I think that it does since it has been quite a few people preaching to what amounts to "the choir" over the last decade. I picked up on that "standard" pretty quickly when I entered the hobby way back when, and it has been the party line/standard since I've been here, and I believe before.

Now I will say that 8-9 years ago I wouldn't have understood what all the fuss was about, or at least why there was so much of it....but as I've been around and "lived with" the issue for a number of years, I now very much get what all the fuss is about, and understand why there is so much of it. I think a lot of people fail to appreciate how a perspective can and often will change as someone's time put into a hobby increases.

The perspective that there at least seems to be some community standard or consensus held by many if not most here, seems to have been pretty common over the years (or that is my impression from my time here)





tardis101 said:


> I don't think self policing is a bad idea at all. But not many seem willing to take up the mantel of establishing a registration/pedigree approval thingy (see how i got super technical there - that's supposed to be a joke I'm trying to inject some humor at 2 am.) that would really go a long way to solving this mixed morph problem (and even the hybrids between species that are floating around out there).


Well people have tried, and that they tried and for the most part failed I think has led many to believe that while an excellent idea in theory, it actually being implemented is unlikely. There are real practical difficulties in getting wide spread adoption in a rapidly growing hobby, and if the core hobbyist adopts it that would give us a bit of a safety net, but you'd still probably have the problem of many people outside of that core group not doing it, and less and less doing it as you worked your way out to the fringes. This is one reason why designer frogs or not, it is important for every breeder to at least maintain line info, and even institue some minimum form of tracking, which many do. 

But even if we had a serious registration/tracking system in play that still leaves a lot of vulnerability from those still outside the core or fringe people... who do still end up dealing with people more towards the core, or they themselves evolve into that core hobbyist. 

I think people overestimate how much registration/tracking would protect us in a designer frog world. Sure it would help, but you'd still have the problems of a lot of unknown/questionable animals being produced by not just USAfrog but eventually many others, that would all likely undermine to some degree confidence in the integrity of many species/morphs. It was already seen as a problem before usafrog when it was just "unknown" animals that probably weren't designer frogs. Have a larger commercial entity who many question the trustworthiness of, pumping out 100's or 1000's of designer animals, then more breeders arriving on the scene doing the same and the problem is compounded. 

It seems that integrity and the preservation of it has at least in my time here, and in relation to other animal hobbies always been a bit more of a big deal to us, then to other people in other hobbies. 

I think that fact is why we have such a lot of drama over it here, and is also why it actually might carry more risk for us in this hobby then it may in others, because it has always been a bigger deal to so many here then it might have been in other hobbies. 

I also see the dart frog hobby as further being in a bit of a unique situation because many other animal hobbies were already much larger by the time the internet arrived and the whole hybrid/designer issue ship probably sailed to a greater degree before there was ever an online community to form a real consensus, or evolve a set of community standards.


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## carola1155

Barry Thomas said:


> The Green Tree Python hobby is somewhat similar. Many people are very interested in keeping locality specific snakes and breeding as true as possible to those lines. Others are interested in the designer snakes. Both groups work well together and this animosity is not present. Those who are interested in locality specific specimens keep detailed records of the history of the animals in their collection and make that information available to potential buyers. I have never had a hard time finding a sorong, biak, or whatever type I was interested in.


From my experience with the hobby, the problem with that idea is two-fold
1) the size of the hobby
2) the amount of morphs available

Many that have been in this hobby long enough have seen morphs pretty much disappear as popularity for them rises and falls. The hobby in its current state probably cannot be broken up even more than it is. If the hobby was big enough to sustain all the current morphs AND hybrids then we wouldn't have nearly as big of an issue... but it isn't. You need at least a decent sized group of people all committed to working with the "pure" lines first.

Now, I know the general thought process after reading that is going to be "well maybe allowing hybrids will grow the hobby". I find that incredibly hard to believe. Plus, I think it would make much more sense to be sure the hobby can sustain the morphs it has first before throwing hybrids into the mix. Its been said multiple times- Hybrids can't be undone. 

The DFW approach was backwards from the get-go and showed a lack of understanding of the hobby. They should have tried to grow the hobby (market) first, THEN introduce the new morphs. That way, you'd have enough people keeping the "pure" morphs to sustain them long term without having to worry about the hybrids effecting them.


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## Barry Thomas

I think many people have missed my main points entirely. Perhaps I am unable to adequately express it. 

1) I have never said I support hybrids or USAfrog. I have never stated that I agree with their business practices. What I have said is that USAfrog and others have decided long ago to breed hybrids and no amount of complaining on this forum is changing their minds. Sure, it does notify and inform new-comers to the hobby. Mission accomplished. What other SOLUTIONS can be discussed to address the issue. 

2) I KNOW, WITHOUT A DOUBT, that my frog collection will not be effected by the breeding practices of those who develop hybrids. I only buy from reputable breeders. Sure If you buy a $20 azureus at a pet store, kingsnake.com or a reptile show, you are taking a chance that it is a hybrid. Guess what. Welcome to the reptile hobby. Don't buy from untrusted sources. 

3) When I sell someone a frog I can back up my claims with line info, pics of parents, receipts of purchase of founder stock, etc. (Many top chameleon keepers are amazing at this. They keep photo records of ancestry for many generations and provide buyers with genealogical charts of their offspring. The green tree pythons breeders are starting to adopt this. It could be a useful tool for us as well.)

There is no use arguing whether hybrids are okay or not. The genie is out of the bottle. They are already here. 

We cannot dictate the actions of others, they are within their rights to do as they please. All our moaning and complaining does nothing. Working together to find simple, common-sense solutions is more appropriate. Nearly every other niche of the reptile/amphib hobby have dealt with this and many have been successful at integrating or at least adapting.


----------



## brendan0923

Barry Thomas said:


> I think many people have missed my main points entirely. Perhaps I am unable to adequately express it.
> 
> 1) I have never said I support hybrids or USAfrog. I have never stated that I agree with their business practices. What I have said is that USAfrog and others have decided long ago to breed hybrids and no amount of complaining on this forum is changing their minds. Sure, it does notify and inform new-comers to the hobby. Mission accomplished. What other SOLUTIONS can be discussed to address the issue.


I don't believe anyone said you did. 



Barry Thomas said:


> 2) I KNOW, WITHOUT A DOUBT, that my frog collection will not be effected by the breeding practices of those who develop hybrids. I only buy from reputable breeders. Sure If you buy a $20 azureus at a pet store, kingsnake.com or a reptile show, you are taking a chance that it is a hybrid. Guess what. Welcome to the reptile hobby. Don't buy from untrusted sources.


That is a very absolute statement. How do you know that a frog that looks like something isn't het for something else and doesn't express the phenotype? This happens all the time in many reptiles and amphibians. I suppose it's true if you are buying from trusted sources, but I don't think there is an absolute way to be sure without breeding.



Barry Thomas said:


> 3) When I sell someone a frog I can back up my claims with line info, pics of parents, receipts of purchase of founder stock, etc. (Many top chameleon keepers are amazing at this. They keep photo records of ancestry for many generations and provide buyers with genealogical charts of their offspring. The green tree pythons breeders are starting to adopt this. It could be a useful tool for us as well.)


That's good. And yes, you are right. I have seen quite a few chameleon keepers doing this as well. Not all do, but there are many that keep good record of their ancestry.



Barry Thomas said:


> There is no use arguing whether hybrids are okay or not. The genie is out of the bottle. They are already here.


 There is if people continue to argue why they're right/justify their actions, etc.
I'm not saying YOU are, but other people do. And that's fine, but if one wants to debate on why they're right, I will come with a counter!



Barry Thomas said:


> We cannot dictate the actions of others, they are within their rights to do as they please. All our moaning and complaining does nothing. Working together to find simple, common-sense solutions is more appropriate. Nearly every other niche of the reptile/amphib hobby have dealt with this and many have been successful at integrating or at least adapting.


I understand they are allowed to do what they want. I still don't think that makes it okay. But I agree, we should come together to find a solution. What were you thinking in terms of a solution to the issues of hybridization? A registry may work, but that also requires people to value lineages. I think we need to make people aware lf the importance of responsible breeding and keeping track of lineages. IMO more people should keep track of genetics and ancestry, like a lot of people in the chameleon hobby. However, other hobbies are not completley without problems. Like I said earlier, the leopard gecko hobby is having similar issues and discussions right now.

Edit: Sorry, made a couple revisions!


Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

tardis101 said:


> If an earlier post (I forgot who said it) is correct and there is only a fraction of people saying anything about it at all and this forum only represents a small fraction of the hobby in general AND the majority of folks in the community appear to be completely silent on the topic, then I don't see how that can be called a community standard. It's still just a handful of people trying to make up rules for everyone.


I believe you may be quoting me. 

For clarification, yes, I believe that *this forum* is only a fraction of hobbyists and the majority have remained silent *here, in this thread* . But, discussions behind the scenes (email, PM, meetings, and private conversations) among hobbyists (both belonging to this forum and not) have been significantly larger and overwhelmingly negative towards hybridization, and even more negatively associated with the business practices of USAFrog. Point being, many outside of this forum and on other forums have taken the same stance.

My PM box gets nearly 4x as many posts on the subject than does this thread.

Additionally, many people have dropped out of this thread due to the implication, by USAFrog, that legal action may come about. As one respected frogger told me, "I'm actually going to take a step back from this for while, ... It just isn't worth it. I'm comfortable with everything I say, but that still doesn't immunize me from a frivolous lawsuit should he attempt to file one."


----------



## big_frog

tardis101 said:


> Those seem like really good reasons/examples.
> 
> And I think your point is spot on. Choice. It seems like the only real way to make sure you're getting what you've paid for is to have a system in like like other pedigreed animals/pets.


I think the problem is it's too late unless people document the lineage of newly imported stock. It's impossible nor provable with the frogs that are already here and are generations removed from the wild


----------



## Dendro Dave

Barry Thomas said:


> I think many people have missed my main points entirely. Perhaps I am unable to adequately express it.
> 
> 1) I have never said I support hybrids or USAfrog. I have never stated that I agree with their business practices. What I have said is that USAfrog and others have decided long ago to breed hybrids and no amount of complaining on this forum is changing their minds. Sure, it does notify and inform new-comers to the hobby. Mission accomplished. What other SOLUTIONS can be discussed to address the issue.


I think complaining, or the drama does actually limit how wide spread the practice might become. If there is a social stigma attached to producing and/or buying designer frogs, then less people will do it. While we've had to occasional hybrid pop up here and there, over the years I'm very impressed with how much of a lid has remained on them thanks to community policing/peer pressure. Actually we don't even really know if many people are buying USAfrog designer animals. I think we have definitely had an impact their business, and even if they manage to endure this drama will likely follow/hamper them to some degree for years. 



Barry Thomas said:


> 2) I KNOW, WITHOUT A DOUBT, that my frog collection will not be effected by the breeding practices of those who develop hybrids. I only buy from reputable breeders. Sure If you buy a $20 azureus at a pet store, kingsnake.com or a reptile show, you are taking a chance that it is a hybrid. Guess what. Welcome to the reptile hobby. Don't buy from untrusted sources.


That's good, and I think many of us here are in the same boat, but I can tell you despite my experience I've occasionally forgot to ask all the questions I should. A landscape with more inherent risk, means more people even experienced ones will occasionally get burned. I'm much less worried about myself, or many of them member here then I am with a lot of newer and/or less informed people. We've already seen instances of buyers remorse from USAfrog customers. Complaining/drama may have limited effect, but I believe it at least has some. Silence/tacit approval, I don't see as having any.



Barry Thomas said:


> 3) When I sell someone a frog I can back up my claims with line info, pics of parents, receipts of purchase of founder stock, etc. (Many top chameleon keepers are amazing at this. They keep photo records of ancestry for many generations and provide buyers with genealogical charts of their offspring. The green tree pythons breeders are starting to adopt this. It could be a useful tool for us as well.)


There is no use arguing whether hybrids are okay or not. The genie is out of the bottle. They are already here. 

We cannot dictate the actions of others, they are within their rights to do as they please. All our moaning and complaining does nothing. Working together to find simple, common-sense solutions is more appropriate. Nearly every other niche of the reptile/amphib hobby have dealt with this and many have been successful at integrating or at least adapting.[/QUOTE]

Technically hybrids/mixed morph frogs have existed at least as long as I've been in the hobby (No i didn't do it! LOL), but to my knowledge we never had a commercial entity claiming to produce them on this scale. So far we just have the one entity. If that entity disappears the genie may not go entirely back into the bottle, but at least a lot of future damage is avoided, and it serves as yet another (and perhaps the most important) example of designer frogs failing to find a foot hold in this hobby. 

I don't think we have lost this fight yet. Surviving as a business in this hobby isn't extremely easy, and tougher times might be ahead, especially given the mistakes they've already made. Beyond all the drama, I can think of at least one mistake they've made that is probably taking it's toll, or will eventually... but I see no reason to help them out. 

If USAfrog has taken a hit from all this, and I believe they have, they may not be in the best position to survive future trends. Is it possible that a designer frog niche is inevitable? Yeah, but man I sure don't want these people to benefit from it given the amount of deception, and lack of respect. We may loose, but then again we may have already won, and they are nearly gone, just barely hanging on thanks to their start up funds, and sheer volume of frogs... things can change, and it may not take much to drive that final nail in. 

At the very least I think so few being willing to admit buying from USAfrog is going to take a toll on that business, if they are actually selling many frogs at the moment. I think people will get tired of having to hide it, but I don't think there are enough of them to fuel a paradigm shift where designer frogs are mostly well accepted... any time soon. 

As they are within their rights to produce designer frogs, we are within ours to complain, protest, boycott, etc...etc...


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> I believe you may be quoting me.
> 
> For clarification, yes, I believe that *this forum* is only a fraction of hobbyists and the majority have remained silent *here, in this thread* . But, discussions behind the scenes (email, PM, meetings, and private conversations) among hobbyists (both belonging to this forum and not) have been significantly larger and overwhelmingly negative towards hybridization, and even more negatively associated with the business practices of USAFrog. Point being, many outside of this forum and on other forums have taken the same stance.
> 
> My PM box gets nearly 4x as many posts on the subject than does this thread.
> 
> Additionally, many people have dropped out of this thread due to the implication, by USAFrog, that legal action may come about. As one respected frogger told me, "I'm actually going to take a step back from this for while, ... It just isn't worth it. I'm comfortable with everything I say, but that still doesn't immunize me from a frivolous lawsuit should he attempt to file one."


Pretty sad when one business can hold a community hostage, effectively scaring people away from even having a debate. Personally regardless of what side of the issue you are on, that would 
(and in fact does) piss me off as a member of this hobby. We should be free to have a discussion without fear of being sued.

Just one of many reasons beyond designer frogs I feel USAfrog has lost any right to operate or be accepted (even tacitly) within this hobby.


----------



## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> I don't think a few individuals being very vocal about hating mixed morphs means the community is heavily skewed to that side.


How about the fact that most reputable sellers can get $35+ for a purebreed tinc froglet, but DFW has had to drop the price of large juveniles to under $15 because they _also_ sell hybrids? Doesn't that seem to indicate that "the community is heavily skewed to that side"?


----------



## Boondoggle

Barry Thomas said:


> I think many people have missed my main points entirely. Perhaps I am unable to adequately express it.
> 
> 1) I have never said I support hybrids or USAfrog. I have never stated that I agree with their business practices. What I have said is that USAfrog and others have decided long ago to breed hybrids and no amount of complaining on this forum is changing their minds. Sure, it does notify and inform new-comers to the hobby. Mission accomplished. What other SOLUTIONS can be discussed to address the issue.
> 
> 2) I KNOW, WITHOUT A DOUBT, that my frog collection will not be effected by the breeding practices of those who develop hybrids. I only buy from reputable breeders. Sure If you buy a $20 azureus at a pet store, kingsnake.com or a reptile show, you are taking a chance that it is a hybrid. Guess what. Welcome to the reptile hobby. Don't buy from untrusted sources.
> 
> 3) When I sell someone a frog I can back up my claims with line info, pics of parents, receipts of purchase of founder stock, etc. (Many top chameleon keepers are amazing at this. They keep photo records of ancestry for many generations and provide buyers with genealogical charts of their offspring. The green tree pythons breeders are starting to adopt this. It could be a useful tool for us as well.)
> 
> There is no use arguing whether hybrids are okay or not. The genie is out of the bottle. They are already here.
> 
> We cannot dictate the actions of others, they are within their rights to do as they please. All our moaning and complaining does nothing. Working together to find simple, common-sense solutions is more appropriate. Nearly every other niche of the reptile/amphib hobby have dealt with this and many have been successful at integrating or at least adapting.


Well said, I agree with just about all of this except the statement.

"they are within their rights to do as they please. All our moaning and complaining does nothing."

I just don't understand the mentality that even though they are sleazy, they are within their rights, while at the same time those that complain about it...shouldn't? Rick has stated that they had to drop their prices because of the criticism from "the hobby". Rick is making less money because we showed people how he was lying. That's all the right i could ever want or need. 

But I'm back with you on common sense solutions. I just happen to think that arming people with easily available accurate information is one of those solutions. Clearly not the only solution, but the only one that is currently working.


----------



## Dane

Boondoggle said:


> How about the fact that most reputable sellers can get $35+ for a purebreed tinc froglet, but DFW has had to drop the price of large juveniles to under $15 because they _also_ sell hybrids? Doesn't that seem to indicate that "the community is heavily skewed to that side"?


Given the current value, (whether because of, or in spite of DFW), I don't think that very many people are getting much more than that for any older line tincs, even at a juvenile stage. 
I didn't think that I would see the day that average frog prices for certain species would drop to $10-20 each, but apparently that is the trend. I believe that we are experiencing the backlash from the significant increase in the dart frog hobby over the last 5-10 years. Many new keepers expected to see a profit on their recently acquired pairs, therefore they bred those pairs to oblivion, and the market became flooded.
I expect to see a summarily equivalent increase in desirability once the vast majority of newbies that don't make a profit in their first 1-2 years falter, and the species that were once in abundance become nearly impossible to get.


----------



## Dane

Edit: I tried to add this but it was too wordy.

I had a group of true Panguana sirensis/lamasi (not red-leg, not orange-leg) about 7-8 years ago from Phil Tan/John Gibeau. They bred regularly, and I produced and sold something in the neighborhood of 100+ froglets from them. I was foolish, and didn't secure an offspring group as holdbacks. 
After an absence due to a frog show, I began losing my adults, and wound up with 1-2 juveniles which I sold/traded. I have not seen this locale available since.
How much more difficult would it have been for maintaining this species if keepers had been attempting to hybridize these animals?

Edit: Try to find these now. They are unavailable.


----------



## tardis101

Boondoggle said:


> How about the fact that most reputable sellers can get $35+ for a purebreed tinc froglet, but DFW has had to drop the price of large juveniles to under $15 because they _also_ sell hybrids? Doesn't that seem to indicate that "the community is heavily skewed to that side"?


That's true I agree that could be it. 

It could also be exactly what Dane says above and that availability has increased so as supply increases cost goes down. I trade my excess frogs to a local reptile store for store credit and get about $15-20 each. I'm now also seeing dart frogs at big box pet stores like PetSmart and PetCo and they seem to be selling them very fast (at least where I am).

But it could just as easily be attributed to the crusade by some of the members here to get the retail stores to stop doing business with DFW. And that is where the potential legal action could happen.


----------



## tardis101

Dane said:


> How much more difficult would it have been for maintaining this species if keepers had been attempting to hybridize these animals?
> 
> Edit: Try to find these now. They are unavailable.


Dude that all really sucks.  I'm sorry you lost yours. But I don't see the connection between them not being available now (at all apparently) and how hybrids would have made them less available?

Edit: It looks like EricM had these frogs back in 2012. 


EricM said:


> I keep the old panguanas, the green legs and large blue leg morph, but I don't pull tads because no one wants them and they take up too much room and food, it's that simple.
> 
> When I get requests for them I will pull and morph out some youngings but 4-5 months down the road a lot of people have "changed their minds" so then I am stuck housing more frogs or I try and offload them to another frogger who will hopefully keep them going.
> 
> This is getting close to a rant, I'll quit.
> thanks
> ERic


----------



## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> That's true I agree that could be it.
> 
> It could also be exactly what Dane says above and that availability has increased so as supply increases cost goes down. I trade my excess frogs to a local reptile store for store credit and get about $15-20 each. I'm now also seeing dart frogs at big box pet stores like PetSmart and PetCo and they seem to be selling them very fast (at least where I am).
> 
> But it could just as easily be attributed to the crusade by some of the members here to get the retail stores to stop doing business with DFW. And that is where the potential legal action could happen.


Sounds like I'm a bit out of touch on current Juvenile frog prices. I've been selling adult here and there but mostly just wholesaling froglets locally. That being said I $15-$20 cash for 3-month-olds. 

I'm by no means a legal expert, but I can't imagine what the grounds of any legal action could possibly be. Rick has hinted at it before but since when is it illegal catch someone in a lie?


----------



## carola1155

tardis101 said:


> Dude that all really sucks.  I'm sorry you lost yours. But I don't see the connection between them not being available now (at all apparently) and how hybrids would have made them less available?


It's not necessarily that hybrids are directly the responsible for making those specific frogs less available (since hybrids are very unpopular now), its that they could potentially cause it to happen to more frogs down the road.

I've been around here for a few years and I'm on this forum A LOT. It is an easy observation to make when you see as much as I do: The hobby is barely big enough to successfully sustain the morphs we do have (or I guess you could say it _isn't_ big enough, since we have pretty much lost a few morphs). Frogs fall in and out of favor as time goes on. It is a fact of the hobby. Until you change human nature (good luck) it is always going to be a problem. Unless we find ways to grow the hobby, too many morphs = not enough people to sustain all those morphs. 

Something that really concerns me is that we already have an influx of new (legitimate) frogs coming in from other sources that we have to worry about sustaining long-term... Effort should be put into that, not creating our own morphs too.


----------



## Dane

tardis101 said:


> Dude that all really sucks.  I'm sorry you lost yours. But I don't see the connection between them not being available now (at all apparently) and how hybrids would have made them less available?
> 
> Edit: It looks like EricM had these frogs back in 2012.


Yeah, after re-reading that second post, I guess I didn't make my point very clear. I was attempting to illustrate how popularity cycles can easily and quickly cause existing pure morphs to disappear. If it became widespread knowledge (or even innuendo) that a large portion of a given established morph were of questionable lineage, it would likely lead to a similar decline in popularity, and could cause even the true morph to similarly dwindle.

And if EricM had these, I'm pretty sure I would know it. The frogs I kept weren't the "green-leg" or "blue leg".


----------



## Roadrunner

I stopped after handing out numerous numbers from frogtracks and never seeing them being used. Lineage info is irrelevant if you don't track it back beyond that. If I got my frogs from Jim and Patrick got his from Jim and you just go by me and patrick as the ones you got them from they are still inbred. We tried to get tracking to avoid inbreeding. And I had the same frogs breeding for over a decade, my lineage info was given out to the people who asked. So let's not make this into something it's not. Should I have written out that most of them were from EU or WC? Did people not know I was getting the farm raised pumilio coming in? Seeesh. you should've done better "research". Waste of my time. It's quite evident that this whole thing is devoid of logic and nothing but a smearfest so enjoy.......... 
The whole point is that when we saw a problem we tried to fix it, not bend everyone to our will, we were smarter than that. If no one signed up then no one really cared enough for it to be an issue.


carola1155 said:


> This is the problem with the argument. Frogtracks is a bit before most people's time. The system was barely in use when I got in the hobby in 2007. First mention I see of the system is by Rob Melancon in 2005... so it was 2 years old at that point. I remember looking for information about it early on so I could register my frogs and getting absolutely nowhere. To me, it seemed like an inflexible and unrealistic system to be applying to a hobby. With all due respect to Rob for trying, it failed for a reason: People never began to put value on the lineage information.
> 
> Now, to blame everyone currently in the hobby for something that failed 8 years ago is ridiculous and getting REALLY old. _Especially_ when the person doing most of the blaming did lots of selling and very little listing of lineage in their ads. Can't really harp on people for not tracking lineage when you didn't even list it in 90% of your own ads. If you couldn't be bothered to be typing it up and showing the importance of it in your own ads, why would you expect other people to take it seriously? Pot, meet kettle.
> 
> In all seriousness though, instead of focusing on what other people did in the past... we have to take the hobby for what it is now. Like it or not, things are not as perfect as the "founders" would have liked them to be. Get over it. Move on. Lets deal with what we can deal with now.
> 
> We need to push the hobby to put value on lineage information. People should WANT to pay a premium for these things. Attach a value to it, and I guarantee people will start paying more attention to it. I cringe every time I see people list their ads with ZERO information about the frogs. The suggested format is there for everyone to see. Use it. Put value on it. Make lineage important in your purchases. Present it as though it is important when you are selling the frogs. Then we won't have to worry about what other people do with their frogs.


----------



## carola1155

Pretty sure you missed my whole point... But that's fine. You have your opinions and we have ours. This is the internet... Its bound to happen and it's not worth going in circles anymore.


----------



## Ed

Dane said:


> Given the current value, (whether because of, or in spite of DFW), I don't think that very many people are getting much more than that for any older line tincs, even at a juvenile stage.
> I didn't think that I would see the day that average frog prices for certain species would drop to $10-20 each, but apparently that is the trend. I believe that we are experiencing the backlash from the significant increase in the dart frog hobby over the last 5-10 years. Many new keepers expected to see a profit on their recently acquired pairs, therefore they bred those pairs to oblivion, and the market became flooded.
> I expect to see a summarily equivalent increase in desirability once the vast majority of newbies that don't make a profit in their first 1-2 years falter, and the species that were once in abundance become nearly impossible to get.


The problem here is that you have a continual increase of the same people who sell to a market that isn't growing as quickly. Now if people began to whole sale their excess to wholesalers etc instead of everyone selling to the same groups of people we should see a greater stabilization of the prices as well as increasing competition for some segments. 

Often we hear in the past, I don't want to sell to flippers because the care of the animals isn't what the breeder thinks is optimal. Well if people start making nice healthy frogs available relatively inexpensively, the demand for the highly stressed etc wild caught will go down and if there are multiple flippers with high quality frogs, those who don't take care of them will lose customers to those who do........ and it will help to prevent the market from bottoming out, people being unable to sell frogs so they get rid of the adults and we have another boom and bust cycle. 

People also have to get away from suggesting the same 2-3 kinds of frogs for beginners. We've had trends of always suggesting leucomelas and other non-obligates which then contributes to the flood of frogs of certain kinds or populations. At this point the hobby has evolved to the cookbook stage so some of the frogs like pumilio really aren't any more difficult than the larger frogs or some of the thumbnails. If you have the food source for the froglets which most people do now, there isn't any real reason they can't rear them. 

these are not new points or comments, its simply another one that people tend to ignore for some reason or another. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

jimmy rustles said:


> So why exactly is everybody acting like the ship has sailed for the registry system? why not start sth now, that everybody sees more of a need for it ?
> 
> Gesendet von meinem GT-I9195I mit Tapatalk


The reason was the there was a significant push to use a system that was optimized for tracking lineages and populations. The idea was that a system that not only could track what frog was related to another frog but could tell you when a boom or bust cycle was underway. If people were able to get out in front of a bust cycle the life span of the frogs would allow you to outlast it preserving hopefully as close to the genetic diversity as possible. Not only did people not care about, people also went on a whisper smear campaign about US F&W and other "threats" just to see it sink. 

The system in question was the same software that the zoos utilize specifically ISIS and then ZIMs. There were also problems with people failing to fill out the reports correctly requiring a lot of hands on by the volunteers, which resulted in complaints that the program wasn't able to accessed by the individuals so they could enter the data on their own.... the reason was because some of those individuals were the ones who didn't provide the information in the first place which is why there was a requirement to vet the data (which was imposed by ISIS and ZIMS) not the program. It was free to use for the froggers but it still cost a substantial fee for TWI. Given the lack of interest the program was canceled and the funding for the access was used for grants for amphibian conservation. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> A few folks are implying (thinly veiled) that I'm a troll, a poor scientist/biologist, or unethical because I don't hold the view of the majority.


Your going well out of your way to present yourself as a troll. You have included the majority of hallmarks that typify the appearance. 

1) Introduce yourself in a "contentious topic"
2) take what is considered the opposite position
3) claim credentials that cannot be substantiated 
4) refuse to release identity and make claims its for self-protection
5) deny all other position without credible data. 
6) attempt to deny introduction of any data that does not fit the troll's definition of acceptable. 
7) introduce personal examples that cannot be verified (anecdotal versus peer reviewed)
8) either fail to use current scientific data or refuse to accept current definitions
9) uses double standards
10) claims to be persecuted when inconsistencies and double standards are caught 
11) submits data that contradicts their position because they didn't bother to review it to see if it was actually applicable. 

I could also references these points from this discussion but I've got better things to do with my time. You are the sole person responsible for how people perceive you and if you had approached this thread with a real argument and didn't engage in suspect behaviors you would have had a different reception. 

I have to note that you are the only person who had to "announce your credentials" as opposed to using a real argument to support your position. Instead you clearly didn't read up on the studies and continually attempted to reduce the discussion to your position. I should note that no one was saying that inbreeding isn't a concern. Instead the data indicates that inbreeding is less of a concern than outbreeding.... and to only outbreed when there isn't any other options. 




tardis101 said:


> As I said when I stepped into this discussion, it was probably a mistake. I had been warned a number of times about the single mindedness of some members and tenancy to attack people who don't tow the line. At 43 years old, I rarely tow the line anymore just because that's the easy way. I often step right in the middle of it sort of speak. Sometimes that goes well and sometimes not so well.


If your attempting to portray yourself as a victim, its no one's fault but your own (see above list). You set the stage and then took all of the actions that would render your argument as not credible. 



tardis101 said:


> I'm actually very proud of what I do. For those who care, even though I said I wouldn't do it, i work for the US. Fish and Wildlife Service implementing the federal Endangered Species Act in northern California. I (try) to protect threatened and endangered species every day from people who want to pave over them. Some days it doesn't turn out as bad as others. I'm not always successful, but when I am it's a really great feeling to know you've helped preserve some corner of the world and one less animal (or plant) is bulldozed over.


There are a number of people on the forum that work or worked with endangered species so your not the only one.... its part of the reason why you and your argument has problems with credibility. 



tardis101 said:


> Yes most of my activity has been on this thread, I didn't think that was a crime. I've been a member for a few years, just reading mostly care sheets and looking at the pictures of people frogs and vivs, thinking I haven't made anything nearly as pretty as some of the astonishingly beautiful ones posted here. But I'll keep trying, hopefully I'll improve and be proud to post a photo of them some day. The two posts of mine quoted above are not reversed opinions. I phrased them differently, but I meant the same thing. I didn't mean it to look duplicitous. As I think I've said, I don't mix my frogs, and I don't want to. However, personally I don't think mixing morphs has deleterious effects to the frogs. Personally I think it's predominately a matter of opinion.


See discussions above. 

As for it being a matter of opinion, it is no longer opinion when you start to throw facts into it. There was a reason I suggested that you review this earlier. Yes, Your Opinion Can Be Wrong | Houston Press 

So, it really isn't a matter of opinion is it? 

I suspect your going to come back with some kind of twaddle so I'm going to ignore it unless its really egregious. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## tardis101

My response is quiet simple. Believe whatever you want.


----------



## edwardsatc

I'm glad that they've finally discovered the truth about themselves 



USAFrog.com said:


> Please Beware: Some agenda driven frog know-it-alls out there seek to change the official record by misinforming the public. Their deception will never change the truth or become the truth, and yet they continue.
> 
> Copyright © 2015 USA Frog Supply. All rights reserved.


----------



## gope

" Originally Posted by USAFrog.com
Please Beware: Some agenda driven frog know-it-alls out there seek to change the official record by misinforming the public. Their deception will never change the truth or become the truth, and yet they continue. "

Somebody buy this guy a mirror!


----------



## AbeV

Ed said:


> People also have to get away from suggesting the same 2-3 kinds of frogs for beginners. We've had trends of always suggesting leucomelas and other non-obligates which then contributes to the flood of frogs of certain kinds or populations. At this point the hobby has evolved to the cookbook stage so some of the frogs like pumilio really aren't any more difficult than the larger frogs or some of the thumbnails. If you have the food source for the froglets which most people do now, there isn't any real reason they can't rear them.
> 
> 
> Ed


This is a great observation. As a newbie, there have been multiple occasions where I ALMOST bought one of the suggested beginner frogs. The two biggest reasons are 1) they're less expensive 2) you can find them at any expo. 3) its easy to lose your patience and get a frog that's right there instead of waiting for the frog you want. It's gotten to the point where you can almost predict what frogs will be at the expo's. Don't get me wrong, they're beautiful frogs, but they're everywhere.




gope said:


> " Originally Posted by USAFrog.com
> Please Beware: Some agenda driven frog know-it-alls out there seek to change the official record by misinforming the public. Their deception will never change the truth or become the truth, and yet they continue. "
> 
> Somebody buy this guy a mirror!


Seriously? I love visiting their website just to see what they will say next. It seems that there's more information about them trying to justify themselves, than there is about the frogs they're selling. 

This just my opinion, I think all frogs are beautiful in their own individual way, but some of the designer frogs that they sell just look bland for lack of a better term.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## Enlightened Rogue

AbeV said:


> It seems that there's more information about them trying to justify themselves, than there is about the frogs they're selling.


Perfect! 
It amazes me still that he has to take this debate on his website for all to see.
Unprofessional doesn`t even begin to cover it


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## Dimond

Great, I come back a year later and there STILL BSing?
So, to review:
1. The site uses Lotters book all over the place to justify hybrid frogs, calling it the best authority.
2. Me and a bunch of other people point out the book doesn't actually say what they think.
3.Dr. Lotters is contacted, and he tells them they failed reading comprehension.
4. The penultimate authority, the key man they revere and respect, is rejected and scorned for not bowing down to hybridiocy five minutes later.
This is not reaching the bottom of the barrel. This is not at the bottom of the barrel. This is not beneath the bottom of the barrel. These people have not risen to the level of barrels.

I get a sense that this man thinks of animals purely as things, so all this stuff doesn't really matter. To him, the welfare of the frogs are no more a concern than the welfare of a toaster. They are just 'pets'. I don't want to go all PETA here, but all animals in captive care deserve the best attention to their welfare. They are not inanimate objects solely for decoration. You actually have to take responsibility and are ethically obligated to provide the best care in their best interest. If you can't or won't do that, you either (a) don't get the damn thing, or (b) you abuse the animal.

But hey, theyre just frogs- ugh, I'm disgusted just typing that.


----------



## allegedhuman

I look at it from the viewpoint that he is a lawyer running a business. Yes, irritating as hell when facts are being twisted to support something opposite of the basic definition of the word but hey, I guess I’m just a know-it biologist trying to push an agenda…not a humble businessman trying to redefine scientific basics and make some money online

...Now where did that sarcasm font button go...shouldn't it be right next to italics?

If a lawyer can win a case by arguing or questioning something often and loudly enough maybe they can cause reasonable doubt into what really is the truth? If you say something loudly and confidently enough that makes it true, right? Or so some people may wish… 

A quote I find applicable is _“A lawyer's primer: If you don't have the law, you argue the facts; if you don't have the facts, you argue the law; if you have neither the facts nor the law, then you argue the Constitution”_ … or in this case Lotters’ “Dart Frog Bible”…

_“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”_ ― Neil deGrasse Tyson
^^^and not just who is shouting loudest in the room (or has the most trademarks on their website)^^^

I guess in that case a slightly different version of the first quote may be more appropriate from Carl Sandburg in which _“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell”_

…and add some trademarks…


----------



## brendan0923

Dimond said:


> I don't want to go all PETA here, but all animals in captive care deserve the best attention to their welfare. They are not inanimate objects solely for decoration. You actually have to take responsibility and are ethically obligated to provide the best care in their best interest


And this is precisely my whole argument. If hybridizing is not in the best interest of the frogs, why do it? Why potentially jeopardize their health? I see no reason to mix species, varieties, whatever they're called, just because. Unless a study is done or some hard evidence comes up suggesting that hybridizing may not be as bad as we think, I don't see why we should take the risk. But hey, that's just me.


----------



## Dimond

Honestly, an actual study into hybrids would take awhile- I'd say 15-20 years and a large number of generations. Of course, if I were a researcher, I would be much more interested in the genetics of wild color patterns. One thing that persistently annoys me in the 'science' sections (there is a long list) is that they are using simple Wikipedia genetics for their crossbreeds. However, we know that dog coat color doesn't follow the basic mendelian pattern, and neither does human skin color or horse coat color. They're all polygenic, and require more complicated, nuanced models. It would not surprise me that this holds in reptiles and amphibians with complex coloration.
These guys are not the people to find that out.


----------



## tardis101

Dimond said:


> Honestly, an actual study into hybrids would take awhile- I'd say 15-20 years and a large number of generations. Of course, if I were a researcher, I would be much more interested in the genetics of wild color patterns. One thing that persistently annoys me in the 'science' sections (there is a long list) is that they are using simple Wikipedia genetics for their crossbreeds. However, we know that dog coat color doesn't follow the basic mendelian pattern, and neither does human skin color or horse coat color. They're all polygenic, and require more complicated, nuanced models. It would not surprise me that this holds in reptiles and amphibians with complex coloration.
> These guys are not the people to find that out.


A study on outbreeding depression, if the claims against it are correct, I would expect to see results in the first couple generations, if not the very first generation. 

I do agree that the science section isn't super strong, for example there don't appear to be many life history studies. Very few things in the species profiles have citations, not that they are wrong, just there doesn't look like there has been a ton of research. 

There are some studies on color patterns, but not all of them are genetic studies.
Disentangling composite colour patterns in a poison frog species. Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2008, 93, 433–444.

Population expansion, isolation and selection: novel insights on the evolution of color diversity in the strawberry poison frog. Evol Ecol (2013) 27:797–824

Divergent evolution in the polymorphic granular poison-dart frog, Oophaga 
granulifera: genetics, coloration, advertisement calls and morphology. Journal of Biogeography (J. Biogeogr.) (2013) 40, 394–408

Inventory of color polymorphism in populations of Dendrobates galactonotus (Anura: Dendrobatidae), a poison frog endemic to Brazil. Phyllomedusa 11(2):95–115, 2012

Intraspecific Reproductive Character Displacement in a Polymorphic Poisson Dart Frog, Dendrobates pumilio. Evolution 65-1: 259–267

Characterization of nine polymorphic microsatellite loci in the dyeing poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius (Dendrobatidae), and their cross-species utility in two other dendrobatoid species. Herpetological Journal 22: 263–265, 2012

And then there is an audio broadcast:


ryangreenway said:


> An interview with Dr. Molly Cummings (University of Texas) who studies evolution in O. pumilio from the Bocas del Toro region of Panama.
> 
> Poison Dart Frogs | ASU - Ask A Biologist


----------



## Dendro Dave

gope said:


> " Originally Posted by USAFrog.com
> Please Beware: Some agenda driven frog know-it-alls out there seek to change the official record by misinforming the public. Their deception will never change the truth or become the truth, and yet they continue. "
> 
> Somebody buy this guy a mirror!


Indeed...

So we made that stuff up about them saying they weren't mixing species or varieties? 

Then why did Rick need to give us that BS excuse that "it was a valid business strategy" when designer frogs showed up on the site within a few months of that "will not mix species or varieties" statement?

It may have gotten edited out at some point but it was there. I and I think others quoted it word for word. The record of it is in these DB threads somewhere, and then of course we got the "business tactic" excuse from Rick. Why make up an excuse for it if it never happened? ....So who's lying? 

If you are keeping score (I am), then I think you gotta count this recent BS as not just more propaganda, but also another outright lie


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## edwardsatc

A new retail website ... and more Wascher BS for the interested reader 

ART Frogs - Home


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## FroggyKnight

I'm scared to click the link.

John.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## aspidites73

All publicity is good publicity. ~Eric Lynn Wright


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## Enlightened Rogue

Right you are sir.
I couldn`t bring myself to look.

The world is a much better place when this thread doesn`t pop up


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## pa.walt

you have to remember this. "We are the country's single largest breeder and seller of colorful pet frogs"
plus they have "athletic tincs". guess they have an exercise area for them. 
and metallic auratus. those must be easy to feed, no flies.


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## big_frog

Enlightened Rogue said:


> For what it`s worth I tried this when I first started and yes it didn`t work.
> The Leucs TOTALLY took over the tank and the Auratus just hid and nearly starved
> until I separated them.
> That was about 10 years ago and I still feel horrible for doing it.
> For them to even suggest something like this is just animal cruelty.
> I`ve come a long way in my life and try really hard not to hate people, but this guy is seriously pushing it.
> 
> EDIT- by the way the above quote is from them and not InvertaHerp


I've had luecs and Auratus together for over three years now with zero problems. Then again my tank is 8ft long and 2 1/2ft wide and heavily planted. Yes I can see where is a smaller enclosure there would be problems but, mixing can be done successfully under the right circumstances. And to add breeding isn't allowed. The few times eggs were laid they were disposed of.


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## Enlightened Rogue

That`s wonderful.

I wish you the best of luck


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## ZookeeperDoug

Just a reminder....


Link without improving "their" search engine position | donotlink.com


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## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> A new retail website ... and more Wascher BS for the interested reader
> 
> ART Frogs - Home


Artfrogs seems to be gone (YAY!!!)



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Just a reminder....
> 
> 
> Link without improving "their" search engine position | donotlink.com


Maybe it was found earlier by someone else but if not...
Here is a new "americandartfrog" site 

Redirecting you to www.americandartfrogs.com | donotlink.com

I haven't got a chance to dive into it, but I'm fairly certain it will be full of the same BS we've come to expect from what is probably the most hated business entity in the entire hobby


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## Boondoggle

Jeez, they've changed the name again? Is this a new one? I can't keep track anymore.


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## PFG

So now they think breeders will pay them to brand their froglets as American?


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## Scott

Here's guessing they're trying to outrun the bad publicity of their name(s).

s


Boondoggle said:


> Jeez, they've changed the name again? Is this a new one? I can't keep track anymore.


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## jarteta97

Let's see how many variations of USA they can find.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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## edwardsatc

The changes are non-stop and never ending.

At one point this month they had three different websites up and running, rebranded several of their frog trademarks, and changed their main website (UsaFrog) from retail to wholesale and back to retail again.

In the last week they’ve changed their minimum order from $300 to $80 to $30 to $100. Today, they jacked their prices up by 50%, gone to free shipping, and added a handling fee of $12.

I think they’ve let their dogs take over the marketing end of the business. Comical really …


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> The changes are non-stop and never ending.
> 
> At one point this month they had three different websites up and running, rebranded several of their frog trademarks, and changed their main website (UsaFrog) from retail to wholesale and back to retail again.
> 
> In the last week they’ve changed their minimum order from $300 to $80 to $30 to $100. Today, they jacked their prices up by 50%, gone to free shipping, and added a handling fee of $12.
> 
> I think they’ve let their dogs take over the marketing end of the business. Comical really …


`Wow, seems like the kinda people I want to ship me live animals


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## TheCoop

To be honest this is unfortunate and just sad.. Will they every go away? A scam artist on every corner I tell ya, the pet/exotic trade can be harsh..


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## Deer

> In the context of the OFFICIAL classification of all living things, AMERICAN™ pet dart frogs are of the genus Dendrobates and OFFICIALLY categorized by species alone. The relevant species categories are: Tinctorius, Auratus, Leucomelas, and Truncatus—there is no such thing as a subspecies of any of these. In addition, ALL of the names for individual varieties such as Patricia, Azureus, Powder Grey (or blue), Cobalt, etc., are simply given names and totally unofficial. Further, variety, color form, locale, etc., are also equally irrelevant for classification.


If I type officially enough, and all in quotes, that makes it true. Right?
Same mentally as those nutjobs who type FACT at the end of all their sentences. OFFICIALLY FACT.



> As verified by official genetic testing, ALL of the Azureus, Yellowback, Giant Orange, Citronella, Oyapok, Patricia, Powder Grey (or blue), Cobalt, etc., ARE EXACTLY THE SAME FROG GENETICALLY, but for their difference in appearance and given name to easily tell them apart. For example, the "Patricia" was originally imported from the wild as a poison dart frog by a lady named Patricia, (in addition to several other people). The Powder Grey has powder grey legs, and the blue frog called “Azureus” (root word “azure”) means blue, etc.


Exactly the the same frog genetically? So all frogs are parthenogenetic, sharing exactly the same genes..?



> Legally, every common frog name is “commonly descriptive”, and "commonly descriptive" means "generic" under the Federal Law of the United States of America. Therefore, there exists a need to provide some basic certification to ensure every frog purchaser is buying a captive bred, pet frog, pure to the species it belongs, guaranteed healthy and fit, and proper age for sale, etc.


As soon as a seller starts to need such ridiculous justification in a main section of their website, alarm bells start to go off. That is if they haven't already been set to screaming by the state of their website alone.


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## AbeV

Am I understanding this correctly?

They are starting a certification program for dart breeders. In order to get certified you have to apply and be approved by their Jedi counsel of frogs and agree to whatever terms yet to be determined?

I may be reading too much into this, but it sounds like they are trying to start a campaign to influence people into their way of thinking, mixing morphs, hybridization, trademarks etc.

This is copied and pasted from their site.

"HomeClassificationCERTIFICATIONContact

A Certification mark is granted by the United States Department of Commerce by and through the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) in Washington, D.C.* A certification mark is* owned by one party who certifies the goods and services of others when they meet certain standards. The owner of the mark exercises control over the use of the mark; however, because the sole purpose of a certification mark is to indicate that certain standards have been met, use of the mark is by others.*


In the interests of conservation and preservation of wild frog habitats worldwide and leaving the dwindling wild frog populations undisturbed, this AMERICAN™*certification will be provided free of charge and made available for all sellers of captive bred frogs provided they meet and attest to certain*qualifications*yet to be formally published. Counsel for U.S. Dart Frog will assist any and all captive frog breeders who satisfy the published criterion to receive a formal grant to use the certification mark in interstate commerce. This certification will help the consumer."


Any thoughts on the matter?


Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## Boondoggle

AbeV said:


> Any thoughts on the matter?


I always hate the dog analogy but it's like having a mutts-only kennel club.


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## Rushthezeppelin

So I just decided to read the first 2 and last two pages of this thread......Ya'll seriously need a facepalm smiley for the USAfrog guy. I'm sure I only saw a fraction of his statements but even those screamed ignorance to me and I'm not geneticist or anything (I have certainly done a fair amount of reading about genetics but far from an expert). So I guess the only way this guy is staying in business is by constantly switching domains around to obfuscate affiliation with his past statement? Hopefully this guy is toast really soon....


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## FroggyKnight

Rushthezeppelin, you missed all the good stuff! When you have time, I would really recommend reading through the thread further (especially the parts about Dr. Lotters disapproval of the USAfrog). It is aggravating, but the comedic value is worth it and it will give you a very good view of what this hobby stands for and what we strongly stand against. 

John


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

I know full well were yall stand and am in agreeance. I come from one of the few other herp groups that also frowns upon hybrids, garter snake keepers. Not only do they not like it for ecological reasons, garter hybrids look like a dull muddy mix of the two species you mixed ><


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## jarteta97

Yep, FroggyKnight is sooooo right, I literally went through the last dozen pages of the thread for kicks and giggles. Not only this, but all the debate and argument for and against hybridization is informative and certainly served to give me new information. I also saw the Lotters portion and it's pretty damn funny how they subsequently laud and then degrade his research


----------



## AbeV

Here's what I don't get about it all. 

You spend time and money building multiple websites, trademarks, certifications, etc.
You spend even more time trying to convince everyone that morphs/locations don't matter and hybridization is OK.

I understand trying to have a unique business model, but wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier, not to mention less expensive to breed your frogs and advertise them like 99% of the rest of the hobby?

I just don't get it




Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


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## Dendro Dave

AbeV said:


> Here's what I don't get about it all.
> 
> You spend time and money building multiple websites, trademarks, certifications, etc.
> You spend even more time trying to convince everyone that morphs/locations don't matter and hybridization is OK.
> 
> I understand trying to have a unique business model, but wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier, not to mention less expensive to breed your frogs and advertise them like 99% of the rest of the hobby?
> 
> I just don't get it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk


Ok i think i see the problem: you are approaching this as a person with a normal ego, and healthy sense of respect for other people ...

Try pretending to be an egomaniacal super villain who was politely told that your plans for world domination wouldn't fly; then try to put yourself in that super villian's shoes... if they were 12 years old. 

So ya: basically it seems to be ego/wounded pride... with a healthy dose of greed thrown in


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

Dendro Dave said:


> Ok i think i see the problem: you are approaching this as a person with a normal ego, and healthy sense of respect for other people ...
> 
> Try pretending to be an egomaniacal super villain who was politely told that your plans for world domination wouldn't fly; then try to put yourself in that super villian's shoes... if they were 12 years old.
> 
> So ya: basically it seems to be ego/wounded pride... with a healthy dose of greed thrown in


This. ROFLMAO. Ego transcends all logic sometimes. With his attitude though I bet he's going to be a bum on a street corner in 5 years. Karma will come back on this asshat 10 fold.


----------



## Boondoggle

AbeV said:


> Here's what I don't get about it all.
> 
> You spend time and money building multiple websites, trademarks, certifications, etc.
> You spend even more time trying to convince everyone that morphs/locations don't matter and hybridization is OK.
> 
> I understand trying to have a unique business model, but wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier, not to mention less expensive to breed your frogs and advertise them like 99% of the rest of the hobby?
> 
> I just don't get it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk



With the initial investment capitol, resources, free labor and resilience they have they would have owned the tinc market...absolutely owned it. Seriously, if they weren't so thorough at destroying their own reputation with such transparent skeezy deceptions then other breeders would probably be joining their coven because it would be impossible to compete with them.


----------



## ivas

Boondoggle said:


> With the initial investment capitol, resources, free labor and resilience they have they would have owned the tinc market...absolutely owned it. Seriously, if they weren't so thorough at destroying their own reputation with such transparent skeezy deceptions then other breeders would probably be joining their coven because it would be impossible to compete with them.


I agree. If their numbers were accurate, they could have dropped prices so low that no one would want to compete. With those numbers, they could have also [really] provided "superior frogs" by maintaining a huge gene pool, documenting lineages and providing such info to customers, rearing them a little longer, selective breeding, providing unrelated pairs, and by culling inferior frogs. Instead, they ended up with a pile of frog poop, an ugly website, and a huge list of excuses.

Which begs the question, how are they still in business, given the plan that they have followed!? 

I have seen a few people on facebook come into the groups with questions like, "I bought a Quasar dart frog from DFW, but cannot find any info on them." This elicits the normal suite of responses, to which the new hobbiest inevitably replies, "I am not happy about this, I feel mislead, and I will be looking elsewhere if I buy more frogs." So, it sounds like they aren't getting much repeat business.

Everyone in the hobby knows about them, so they certainly aren't selling to any of us.

Finally, every breeder that I know has been having a very hard time selling pure-bred frogs with well-documented lineages, and at prices comparable to those advertised on the DFW website. So business can't be any better, in general, for Mr. Wavey-Gravy and his Merry Pranksters. And even when the selling is good, I can't imagine making a decent salary at it.


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## Dendro Dave

You know we have a lot of very vocal people about this issue, but can you imagine the fall out if they started trying to cross Pumilio or other higher end frogs??? (Many of which have even smaller founder populations, so removing any frogs from our pool could be highly detrimental) 

...I bet since they deal in mostly beginner species a lot of people have remained silent because it didn't really effect them much... But Oh man if they tinker with the high end frogs, I bet a lot of big names and oldtimers who have remained mostly silent will go truly ballistic, and what we've seen so far will look like a lovey dovey hug fest.


----------



## Vinegaroonie

I'm fairly new to this forum but I've read a lot. I've read nearly 30 pages of this thread and I finally decided to contribute...

I sent in this email today: 

"Comments or Questions: Hello, I am a prospective frog buyer and was wondering how you keep your frogs? I've kept poison frogs in the past but they were horribly delivered and kept prior to my keeping of them, so I would like to make sure that what I am receiving is quality. Other places refuse to give me fecals or any sort of confirmation that that they were healthy except for a picture of a "good vivarium". While I know fecals are hard to get I would love at least a photo confirmation."

^^ This is almost all true except for the fact that the frogs were horribly delivered/cared for.

Response:

"Frog diseases are a major concern for people who buy imports, handle wild caught frogs, or purchase frogs from an unknown source.
We do not import.
We do not buy and resell.
We do not have any wild caught frogs, and never have. 
We do not allow any frog from the outside into our facility.
Each and every frog we sell is the captive bred and raised offspring of our own captive bred parent breeding stock representing the best-of-the-best lines proven in house by actual breeding studies.
Leaves are very important and essential to clean, healthy, enclosures. We go through bushels and bushels of leaves. The importance of dried leaves is vastly understated.
All of our frogs are guaranteed perfectly healthy, top quality, and gorgeous. 
This is a video taken over a year ago. We have a LOT more of the operation off camera, and not for public viewing, but maybe this helps give you a feel for our diligence and love for these animals.

USA Frog
<Phone number removed>

I'm pretty sure this video has been in this thread but I don't have time to search through it all  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoBudKTvDkc

They seem... err... enthusiastic. 

Should I reply or should I have not sent this email in... is this helpful? 

Thanks,

Niko


----------



## Dendro Dave

Vinegaroonie said:


> I'm fairly new to this forum but I've read a lot. I've read nearly 30 pages of this thread and I finally decided to contribute...
> 
> I sent in this email today:
> 
> "Comments or Questions: Hello, I am a prospective frog buyer and was wondering how you keep your frogs? I've kept poison frogs in the past but they were horribly delivered and kept prior to my keeping of them, so I would like to make sure that what I am receiving is quality. Other places refuse to give me fecals or any sort of confirmation that that they were healthy except for a picture of a "good vivarium". While I know fecals are hard to get I would love at least a photo confirmation."
> 
> ^^ This is almost all true except for the fact that the frogs were horribly delivered/cared for.
> 
> Response:
> 
> "Frog diseases are a major concern for people who buy imports, handle wild caught frogs, or purchase frogs from an unknown source.
> We do not import.
> We do not buy and resell.
> We do not have any wild caught frogs, and never have.
> We do not allow any frog from the outside into our facility.
> Each and every frog we sell is the captive bred and raised offspring of our own captive bred parent breeding stock representing the best-of-the-best lines proven in house by actual breeding studies.
> Leaves are very important and essential to clean, healthy, enclosures. We go through bushels and bushels of leaves. The importance of dried leaves is vastly understated.
> All of our frogs are guaranteed perfectly healthy, top quality, and gorgeous.
> This is a video taken over a year ago. We have a LOT more of the operation off camera, and not for public viewing, but maybe this helps give you a feel for our diligence and love for these animals.
> 
> USA Frog
> <Phone number removed>
> 
> I'm pretty sure this video has been in this thread but I don't have time to search through it all  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoBudKTvDkc
> 
> They seem... err... enthusiastic.
> 
> Should I reply or should I have not sent this email in... is this helpful?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Niko


Here's the thing...

Their frogs probably are healthy, at least as much as any good breeder's, but since it seems they have lost the trust of much if not most of the community any frogs that are known to have come from them, or pass through their hands are going to be considered "tainted" by many of us, so they will probably be more difficult to sell/trade and if you can you may have to take less money or get less in trade value.

If you've read most of this thread then you've seen their antics that we've documented and commented on. Ask yourself this... If even half of what has been said is true, why buy from them when there are so many other good/reputable breeders around? ...Is saving a few bucks now worth possibly ending up with frogs that are hard to sell/trade later, and is supporting that business entity worth helping them do more damage to the hobby/community?... and will it win me any friends??? 

We've documented what most here seem to feel was a big lie about them not crossing species or varieties, then they drag a well known scientist's name through the mud after he objected to them taking his work and writings out of context and using them for their own purposes, and so much more... Including the sleezy marketing, renaming of morphs, etc..etc... and then there is the probable social stigma of being known to have dealings with USAfrog and supporting their business now that the truth has come out about their franken frogs, and when so many people want to see them fade away. Plus do they seem trustworthy enough to sell designer frogs next to pure frogs and not maybe fudge things a little to make a sale when a frog looks close enough to another frog but may command a higher price? ...With all that has been documented about them, I sure wouldn't trust them.

You could always ask to see "those in house studies", and insist on fecals or some kinda test results to back up their claims... but I doubt you get them. To be fair due to the time and expense I doubt most breeders will have fecals ready to show you, or run them specifically to get that sale, though many do them occasionally, and if you have them run yourself and there is an issue I suspect many good/reputable breeders will work with you in some way to resolve it. But USAfrog has made extraordinary claims beyond what most other breeders will make, so hey why not press them for the proof?

Even if you did and got it, I just wouldn't wanna be known to have anything to do with them or their frogs given the community outrage at their shenanigans. Chances are you can find frogs just as nice/healthy and at comparable price from someone else, so why even mess with USAfrog? ...Is it really worth the few bucks you may save?


----------



## Vinegaroonie

Dendro Dave said:


> Here's the thing...
> 
> Their frogs probably are healthy, at least as much as any good breeder's, but since they have lost the trust of much if not most of the community any frogs that are known to have come from them, or pass through their hands are going to be considered "tainted" by most of us, so they will probably be more difficult to sell/trade and if you can you may have to take less money or get less in trade value.
> 
> If you've read most of this thread then you've seen their antics that we've documented and commented on. Ask yourself this... If even half of what has been said is true, why buy from them when their are so many other good/reputable breeders around? ...Is saving a few bucks now worth possibly ending up with frogs that are hard to sell/trade later, and is supporting that business entity worth helping them do more damage to the hobby/community... and will it win me any friends???
> 
> We've documented what most here seem to feel was a big lie about them not crossing species or varieties, then they drag a well known scientist's name through the mud after he objected to them taking his work and writings out of context and using them for their own purposes, and so much more... Including the sleezy marketing, renaming of morphs, etc..etc... and the social stigma of being known to have dealings with USAfrog and supporting their business when so many people want to see them fade away.
> 
> You could always ask to see "those in house studies", and insist on fecals or some kinda test results to back up their claims... but I doubt you get them.
> 
> Even if you did, I just wouldn't wanna be known to have anything to do with them or their frogs given the community outrage at their shenanigans. Chances are you can find frogs just as nice/healthy and at comparable price from someone else, so why even mess with USAfrog?



Oh no no no, I'm not considering buying from them  I forgot to mention that, it seemed obvious at the time but I get that it was misleading. I just wanted to see their setups. I completely agree with everything said about them, I'll never buy from them. 

Also, do we have actual evidence that they have crossed morphs? Their website is super confusing and I honestly don't have the will power to go through their whole site...

Thanks,

Niko


----------



## Dendro Dave

Vinegaroonie said:


> Oh no no no, I'm not considering buying from them  I forgot to mention that, it seemed obvious at the time but I get that it was misleading. I just wanted to see their setups. I completely agree with everything said about them, I'll never buy from them.
> 
> Also, do we have actual evidence that they have crossed morphs? Their website is super confusing and I honestly don't have the will power to go through their whole site...
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Niko


Good for you 

...Ya they admitted it, and at one time there were pics of cross morph frogs on the site. And as you noted their site is very confusing and has gone through so many edits/updates that I honestly have no idea if they are still selling mixed morph frogs now or if the frogs up on the site are truly all purebreds now.... 

I mean all those franken frogs had to go somewhere and so few people are admitting to having them that I have to wonder if the ones that looked close enough to a purebred weren't just relabeled because as far as that family is concerned and their philosophy what they were or are doing was perfectly acceptable in their mind, more then that it was the way things should be done, at least that is how I took their statements. 

The mixed morphs might be on that americandartfrog site I linked to earlier. They had said they were going to split the pure bred frogs from the designer frogs and put the designers on another site... Hellz if I know what they are up to now LOL  ...Whatever it is, I'm reasonably sure it isn't good


----------



## Vinegaroonie

Yeah... I recently directed a friend of mine who was going to buy from them to dendroboard for better frogs. 1 down, 300 new hobbyists to go.... 

I feel so bad for Dillon because, IMO, his dad is running the show. In the video he seemed completely disinterested in what he was doing and his dad got more camera time even though it was Dillon's college money... I hope he can learn to do things the right way. Think, his whole future is ruined because his parents agreed to spend his college money on a business that will ultimately fail and lose them tons of money. Or I'm wrong and it's all Dillon. We may never know... They've dug themselves too deep in this mess and now they gotta resort to underhanded tactics to try and salvage what's left of this trainwreck.

Nothing that hasn't already been said, really, but it's nice to vent a bit.

Thanks,

Niko


----------



## Dendro Dave

Vinegaroonie said:


> Yeah... I recently directed a friend of mine who was going to buy from them to dendroboard for better frogs. 1 down, 300 new hobbyists to go....
> 
> I feel so bad for Dillon because, IMO, his dad is running the show. In the video he seemed completely disinterested in what he was doing and his dad got more camera time even though it was Dillon's college money... I hope he can learn to do things the right way. Think, his whole future is ruined because his parents agreed to spend his college money on a business that will ultimately fail and lose them tons of money. Or I'm wrong and it's all Dillon. We may never know... They've dug themselves too deep in this mess and now they gotta resort to underhanded tactics to try and salvage what's left of this trainwreck.
> 
> Nothing that hasn't already been said, really, but it's nice to vent a bit.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Niko





it is sad, it could have gone so much better if they had gotten the lay of the land and culture first, and then respected that, instead of single handedly trying to remake the entire hobby against our will. 

Dillion is probably a good kid, but what he did was taboo in this hobby, and instead of saying My bad I didn't know I wont do it any more it triggered his and/or his dad's ego to get involved and they basically told everyone to screw off.... and did what they did, and now that black mark will follow them in this hobby forever.


----------



## Aldross

Dendro Dave said:


> it is sad, it could have gone so much better if they had gotten the lay of the land and culture first, and then respected that, instead of single handedly trying to remake the entire hobby against our will.
> 
> Dillion is probably a good kid, but what he did was taboo in this hobby, and instead of saying My bad I didn't know I wont do it any more it triggered his and/or his dad's ego to get involved and they basically told everyone to screw off.... and did what they did, and now that black mark will follow them in this hobby forever.


I've come to doubt that Dillion is any better at this point. If it truly is his company or has a lot to do with it then this is his baby just as much as Tricky Dicks. 
They have gone well beyond the "Me bad" point. Even if they were to go legit no one that is deep into the hobby would by from them. It's become a principle matter now and when you spit in this many faces and drag the names of some of the most respected people that have helped us progress to the point we are there is no turning back. 
They only have 2 options open to them
1) Throw in the towel and close the doors. (won't happen)
2) Keep going on the current path until option 1 is all that's left


----------



## edwardsatc

Dendro Dave said:


> Good for you
> 
> ...Ya they admitted it, and at one time there were pics of cross morph frogs on the site. And as you noted their site is very confusing and has gone through so many edits/updates that I honestly have no idea if they are still selling mixed morph frogs now or if the frogs up on the site are truly all purebreds now....


Still selling mixed morphs. Just not identifying them as such anymore. For example:

Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com

and 

Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com

and 

Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com


----------



## Vinegaroonie

edwardsatc said:


> Still selling mixed morphs. Just not identifying them as such anymore. For example:
> 
> Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com
> 
> and
> 
> Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com
> 
> and
> 
> Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com


Disgusting. They don't even look that different from other frogs in the hobby. I like how it says "other users have described this link as 'utter nonsense'" 

Honestly, 72 dollars for basically a glorified azureus


----------



## BrainBug

How long before they are in a Wal Mart parking lot hawking these "franken-frogs"?


----------



## carola1155

Ummm...



Derp said:


> QUASAR Sipaliwini Savannah SAFE pet frog
> - Juvenile (3.5-4.5 mos. old and 1"+)
> VIVARIUM READY!
> *Their Price:* $37.95
> USA Frog Price: $24.00


How is there a "their price" if nobody else sells this garbage?


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

carola1155 said:


> Ummm...
> 
> 
> 
> How is there a "their price" if nobody else sells this garbage?


This is seriously sad that they are trying to create the perception that they even have competition in the designer frog "industry". Feel sad for saying this but I hope the exhaust that college fund pretty soon here.


----------



## edwardsatc

Vinegaroonie said:


> Disgusting. They don't even look that different from other frogs in the hobby. I like how it says "other users have described this link as 'utter nonsense'"
> 
> Honestly, 72 dollars for basically a glorified azureus


But wait ... there's more  

Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com


----------



## Aldross

We've all seen their list of who they bought from. There were a few names on that list I wouldn't consider best of the best. It was more of a buy everything we can find and toss them all in tanks together and see what we get.


----------



## Boondoggle

Aldross said:


> We've all seen their list of who they bought from. There were a few names on that list I wouldn't consider best of the best. It was more of a buy everything we can find and toss them all in tanks together and see what we get.


I love that "Best of the Best" stuff. I can't even count how many times I've asked them to qualify that statement. What the heck does "best" even mean in that context?


----------



## JayMillz

edwardsatc said:


> But wait ... there's more
> 
> Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com


At least the price is down to 10% of what they were initially asking a year ago. Rememeber how much they started at?! In another year they will probably be 10% of what they are asking today.


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## 15043michaelmartin

About a year and a half ago I got into the dart frog hobby; I bought my frogs off of DFW not knowing about the controversy surrounding the company. I bought a pair of dendrobates tinctorius azureus, but the thing is I have tadpoles from the pair and they are about to morph out and I don't know what I should do with them should I sell them to a pet store, keep them or what... any advice would help.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

Personally I say hell no to the selling them to the pet store. For one you can't honestly guarantee them what you are selling them. Frankly you might want to euthanize the tads......I'm pretty sure there is a thread or two on here dealing with that. I know it sounds harsh but that is my opinion unless you want to rear those tads and keep them, but then you will get more and more unless you at some point euthenize (preferably while they are still an egg).


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

15043michaelmartin said:


> About a year and a half ago I got into the dart frog hobby; I bought my frogs off of DFW not knowing about the controversy surrounding the company. I bought a pair of dendrobates tinctorius azureus, but the thing is I have tadpoles from the pair and they are about to morph out and I don't know what I should do with them should I sell them to a pet store, keep them or what... any advice would help.


Thank you for making this public. 
You`ve done the hobby a great service.

As far as the tads go I would keep them and maybe try to minimize future breeding.
If you want to continue we have several members here you can trust.
Check the Vendor Feedback forum.


----------



## big_frog

15043michaelmartin said:


> About a year and a half ago I got into the dart frog hobby; I bought my frogs off of DFW not knowing about the controversy surrounding the company. I bought a pair of dendrobates tinctorius azureus, but the thing is I have tadpoles from the pair and they are about to morph out and I don't know what I should do with them should I sell them to a pet store, keep them or what... any advice would help.


Just be honest when you sell them on where the parents came from..


----------



## Boondoggle

15043michaelmartin said:


> About a year and a half ago I got into the dart frog hobby; I bought my frogs off of DFW not knowing about the controversy surrounding the company. I bought a pair of dendrobates tinctorius azureus, but the thing is I have tadpoles from the pair and they are about to morph out and I don't know what I should do with them should I sell them to a pet store, keep them or what... any advice would help.


Yeah, you're in a bit of a pickle.

The answer kinda' depends on where you fall on the DFW-frogs-of-questionable-origins debate. I have to be honest, too...A year and a half ago DFW was charging more for mixed frogs, and they were a bit more honest about mixes, so it's entirely possible they are Azureus. Only in the last 6 months or so has DFW been saddled with thousands of junk frogs that they A) won't stop producing, and B) have had to slash prices by 80% just to move (Jeez, there's a business plan, eh?).

If you feel like many of us do then you would want to prevent them from really entering the "hobby". I've had a lot of frogs for a while now so I've had to cull for one reason or another my fair share over the last decade. That is what I would do, but I can definitely understand how that could be an unacceptable solution for some. Bottom line, if you agree with the prevalent view in this forum, then keep them out of circulation. Either keep them yourself, give them to a trusted friend or relative that will absolutely keep them out of circulation...maybe even break them up if they are M/F.

The greater question, I think, is what are you going to do in the future to prevent this? Those frogs have another 15 or so good breeding years ahead of them and they want to reproduce.

Seriously, though, thanks for being honest about their origins. That kind of transparency and honestly marks you as one of the good guys.


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## 15043michaelmartin

Thank you for all your advice and I did e-mail them inquiring them about wether they are pure aureus or not and who they are from and I did get a reply, but I don't know if I'm allowed to show e-mails on here or how to show them.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## jarteta97

Honestly, even if they say that they are "true" azureus, I would take it with a huge grain of salt, considering the fact that a) they are desperate for business and b) they have been known to construe definitions and connotations to benefit themselves. 

It's likely best to raise them yourself and then separate them into their own individual tanks so as to prevent breeding.


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## JayMillz

Just keep the tads and raise them up for your own enjoyment. Just stop pulling eggs and minimize any extra spots for future tads to get transported to. There is no reason you can't just keep them and enjoy them for what they are. That's why you initially bought them right? Tons of people enjoy mutt dogs. They just don't try to sell them off as AKC champions. You're fine.


----------



## edwardsatc

USDA Certified plants? Sounds like a new line of BS to me ... why does everything have to be a gimmick or deception with these guys?

Eventually, I'm sure they'll get wrapped under Ricky's "SAFE" branding.

Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

edwardsatc said:


> USDA Certified plants? Sounds like a new line of BS to me ... why does everything have to be a gimmick or deception with these guys?
> 
> Eventually, I'm sure they'll get wrapped under Ricky's "SAFE" branding.
> 
> Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com


I can't find this USDA program that would be capable of certifying decorative plants as having been quarantined.....I'm going to dig into this deeper.....


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/wps/portal/aphis/ourfocus/importexport This is the closest thing I'm finding which pertains only to imported plants. I doubt all of his plants are imported (maybe started from an imported cutting but I doubt this program goes after plant growers after it's been imported).


----------



## Dendro Dave

"satisfaction guaranteed" 

...Well there ya go everyone who had buyer's remorse when they found out what this company was up to, what the community thinks of them, and what the frogs and/or offspring from them are going to be worth in this hobby... I say test em and see if their word carries any weight. 

Just say something like: 
"Um ya, I need my money back Cuz these frogs and your reputation are considered tainted in the community... MmmKay?". 

...and please report back to us how that goes


----------



## pdfCrazy

Dendro Dave said:


> "satisfaction guaranteed"
> 
> ...Well there ya go everyone who had buyer's remorse when they found out what this company was up to, what the community thinks of them, and what the frogs and/or offspring from them are going to be worth in this hobby... I say test em and see if their word carries any weight.
> 
> Just say something like:
> "Um ya, I need my money back Cuz these frogs and your reputation are considered tainted in the community... MmmKay?".
> 
> ...and please report back to us how that goes


Yes, but you know they will subjectively define satisfaction the way they see fit. For all we know, their definition of satisfaction gauneteed was towards themselves. They gaurentee they will be satisfied with the sale, not the purchaser.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

pdfCrazy said:


> Yes, but you know they will subjectively define satisfaction the way they see fit. For all we know, their definition of satisfaction gauneteed was towards themselves. They gaurentee they will be satisfied with the sale, not the purchaser.


Ya satisfaction guaranteed is such a vague term that they can legally make mean darn near w/e they want it to. It's like when you hear "USA's most trusted bla blah blah product". It means all of jack squat.

Still digging through USDA programs and the only other thing I can find is a program in Hawaii in conjunction with the USDA to ensure plant exports to the mainland are safe. This guy is blowing smoke out his ass on that USDA certified BS unless he is importing all his plants which I very highly doubt.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

I think I'm going to have a friendly chat with the USDA tomorrow, to get it from the horse's mouth whether it is even possible for them to certify plants grown in the states. If not I might see if I can have a chat with the TN AG office. Hell maybe the USDA themselves will be interested in this. Sorry but when somebody is skirting fraud like I think he is, I will go out of my way to be a consumer advocate and have them prosecuted for their crimes.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

I also find it kind of funny that he talks about not wanting to ship to CA and AZ because of random and irregular inspection process. If he is so confident in his plants why can he not be bothered to go through a few extra hoops to meet consumer demand?


----------



## JayMillz

Try talking to some APHIS PPQ employees.


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## pdfCrazy

Saying his plants are USDA certified could actually be criminal fraud depending on the circumstances. If there is actually nothing being "certified", I wonder if the USDA would be interested to know their name is being dragged though the mud.


----------



## edwardsatc

Rushthezeppelin said:


> I can't find this USDA program that would be capable of certifying decorative plants as having been quarantined.....I'm going to dig into this deeper.....


Yeah, same thought I had and the reason I posted. I haven't been able to find anything. 

Maybe their supplier is an importer? But, so far the only plant they have for sale is pothos ... certainly not imported and I can't see why it would need certification. 

They've also posted the cert's from their supplier, but have redacted the suppliers name ???

Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com

I really need to just quit checking out their site. I really couldn't give a shit what they sell anymore, but why does it always have to be shady?


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

He finally decided to actually show copies of his certs. Like you said though, unless ALL his pothos is imported (stupidly unlikely) it is not all certified by the APHIS program. And I doubt Florida is coming to TN to verify all his plants.


----------



## edwardsatc

Rushthezeppelin said:


> He finally decided to actually show copies of his certs. Like you said though, unless ALL his pothos is imported (stupidly unlikely) it is not all certified by the APHIS program. And I doubt Florida is coming to TN to verify all his plants.


The cert's belong to his supplier in Florida, not Ricky. 

There is a USDA domestic quarantine and certification process. But, from what I can tell, it is very plant/pest specific. These are issued as a "Federal Domestic Quarantine Order". Typically, these orders are for crops and crop pests. Few, if any, of these orders seem likely to apply to vivarium suitable plants. 

I could be missing something ... I dunno.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

edwardsatc said:


> The cert's belong to his supplier in Florida, not Ricky.
> 
> There is a USDA domestic quarantine and certification process. But, from what I can tell, it is very plant/pest specific. These are issued as a "Federal Domestic Quarantine Order". Typically, these orders are for crops and crop pests. Few, if any, of these orders seem likely to apply to vivarium suitable plants.
> 
> I could be missing something ... I dunno.


Is this FDQO process a voluntary program or just a random inspection process?


----------



## CronicdenDro

It is truly a joke that he is even posting those certifications. Any nursery that wishes to sell/ship its products to other states will be APHIS certified without a doubt. All it tells us is that their supplier does not contain crop pests (cause we are growing crops in our tanks ) Secondly he says he does not wish to name his supplier but then lists Darbie's Greenhouse as his "SAFE" source for the pothos plant. I'm more than willing to bet that the picture of those certifications are from whoever Darbie's Greenhouse receives its tropical plants from in Florida and is not actually from his supplier. Clearly he is intentionally trying to say that the USDA has certified all his plants as pest free and healthy but this is nothing short of another scam on the uninformed.


----------



## edwardsatc

CronicdenDro said:


> It is truly a joke that he is even posting those certifications. Any nursery that wishes to sell/ship its products to other states will be APHIS certified without a doubt. All it tells us is that their supplier does not contain crop pests (cause we are growing crops in our tanks ) Secondly he says he does not wish to name his supplier but then lists Darbie's Greenhouse as his "SAFE" source for the pothos plant. I'm more than willing to bet that the picture of those certifications are from whoever Darbie's Greenhouse receives its tropical plants from in Florida and is not actually from his supplier. Clearly he is intentionally trying to say that the USDA has certified all his plants as pest free and healthy but this is nothing short of another scam on the uninformed.


I believe that Darbie is his young daughter. Best if she's left out of this.


----------



## CronicdenDro

edwardsatc said:


> I believe that Darbie is his young daughter. Best if she's left out of this.


Not trying to drag anyone into this, it is something listed on their site free for anyone to see. I just was wondering why all the certifications are listed from Florida but the plant comes from Tennessee? Their business practices are just very misleading.


----------



## allegedhuman

_“perfectly ready and SAFE for resale and placement into your vivarium the minute you get them”_ (from USA frog website… or whatever I’m supposed to say for proper attribution so nobody tries to sue for copyright infringement  …) 

If the plants they are distributing are perfectly safe for immediate use in frog tanks does that mean the plants were grown without fertilizers and pesticides? 

Maybe I’m just trying to play it _safe_, but I generally like to buy my plants from frog vending companies that specifically mention this important detail, especially if I am supposed to be able to put them directly into a tank without having to grow them out for a while “just in case” the plants were treated with something nasty at the greenhouse unbeknownst to me that I would not want to end up in a tank with frogs.

I'm skeptical that the average plant distributer that is the real company holding and obtaining USDA certification for these plants DFW is reselling would routinely grow thousands of plants commercially fertilizer and pesticide free.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if a company may go to such great lengths to portray how “safe” their “non-poison” dart frogs are when normal dart frogs bred in the hobby are already non-poisonous anyways so that is nothing unique, but then they might overlook a potentially real safety concern from a “non-poisonous” plant grown with commercial pesticides?


----------



## Dendro Dave

pdfCrazy said:


> Yes, but you know they will subjectively define satisfaction the way they see fit. For all we know, their definition of satisfaction gauneteed was towards themselves. They gaurentee they will be satisfied with the sale, not the purchaser.


Ya and they seem perfectly comfortable redefining any term to suit their needs... on the fly.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

Lol, figures. I finally get a free minute to call up the APHIS office and I totally forget that it's a federal holiday >< Left em a message though so hopefully I will hear from them tomorrow.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

Well APHIS got back to me. Talked to a very nice lady and she had me send the link so that she can look into this further. She is trying to find the pertinent party to find out whether they are stepping on the USDAs foot legally with this. I almost wonder if his wording is just barely vague enough to claim that he was only referring to the original import the plants are based on. Still his wording of "each and every plant" might be his undoing on this.


----------



## Dendro Dave

It seems sad to me that they just try to latch on to these minor details and blow them out of proportion, and/or try to seem special when it is something commonly done. To me it speaks to a willingness to deceive or confuse with BS and of course we have the other examples where many of us feel they outright lied...

Separate and/or together these incidents just put them on very shaky ground IMO, and I'm kinda shocked that they seem so shocked when people call them Out on this BS.

Seems to me they keep pulling variations on the same tricks that got them into this mess: like it is their nature and they can't help themselves  ...and can't imagine why people don't just accept or condone this behavior  We even have that baseball stuff they were doing that was irking some people... I sense a pattern. Do they really not see it


----------



## Yaki

I saw their ad when looking for sellers. 
Aside for the trade marking names, the price scared me away.
When a company advertises frogs at $17 my radar goes up.
If it's too good to be true...


----------



## GandalfTheGrey

This is kind of off topic to the plant issue, but this is my personal experience with frogs from USA frogs. 
Late 2014 (around October), I ordered a pair of D. leucomelas from these guys. I have no idea why I didn't look on this site for reviews, I suppose it was because I was new to the hobby and didn't really know about many reptile and amphibian communities. The frogs came on time, and the frogs 'looked' great to me. I put them in a 10 gallon tank that I had prepared. USA frogs said on their website that the frogs would always be out and about providing that there were plenty of leaves, but they were almost never out in the open. Although USA frog had also assured on their site that the frogs would be breeding in one to two months, February came and still I had no eggs or even calling. Eventually, by the end of February, I had ran out of fruit flies for two days, and by the time I had went to a reptile expo and picked up some more flies, they were nowhere to be seen. It took me almost 20 minutes to finally find their bodies, and they looked kind of dried out even though the tank was moist and the bodies were under clumps of moist moss. Hope that this helps


----------



## bsr8129

GandalfTheGrey said:


> This is kind of off topic to the plant issue, but this is my personal experience with frogs from USA frogs.
> Late 2014 (around October), I ordered a pair of D. leucomelas from these guys. I have no idea why I didn't look on this site for reviews, I suppose it was because I was new to the hobby and didn't really know about many reptile and amphibian communities. The frogs came on time, and the frogs 'looked' great to me. I put them in a 10 gallon tank that I had prepared. USA frogs said on their website that the frogs would always be out and about providing that there were plenty of leaves, but they were almost never out in the open. Although USA frog had also assured on their site that the frogs would be breeding in one to two months, February came and still I had no eggs or even calling. Eventually, by the end of February, I had ran out of fruit flies for two days, and by the time I had went to a reptile expo and picked up some more flies, they were nowhere to be seen. It took me almost 20 minutes to finally find their bodies, and they looked kind of dried out even though the tank was moist and the bodies were under clumps of moist moss. Hope that this helps



Being out of flies for two days should not have been a cause of death to properly feed frogs, and i wouldnt say that is the cause of the frogs demise. My Leucs are seasonal breeders and usually lay in the summer months.


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## GandalfTheGrey

I also suspected that the lack of food for two days was not the cause of their death, and I really regret starting off the hobby with animals from such a company


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## jarteta97

Correct, two days with no feeding most certainly would not result in starvation if their feeding schedule had been fairly regular. But, until we know the full setup of the tank, we can't know whether it was because of improper care before or after selling. That being said, knowing their reputation... it could be a result of both. Even then, though, 10 gallons for two frogs, especially when you factor in space taken by drainage and sub... not a large enough enclosure, but of course USAfrogs isn't exactly known for it's proper housing of frogs.


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## bsr8129

jarteta97 said:


> Correct, two days with no feeding most certainly would not result in starvation if their feeding schedule had been fairly regular. But, until we know the full setup of the tank, we can't know whether it was because of improper care before or after selling. That being said, knowing their reputation... it could be a result of both. Even then, though, 10 gallons for two frogs, especially when you factor in space taken by drainage and sub... not a large enough enclosure, but of course USAfrogs isn't exactly known for it's proper housing of frogs.


10 gal can be enough space for 2 frogs, I have a breeding pair of leucs in a 10 gal.


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## jarteta97

I understand that there is a lot of subjective opinion on the 10 gallon per frog rule, but I believe that if floor space is maximized through the use of hardscaping and many horizontal wood pieces, that a 10 gallon can squeeze two frogs in, so take no offense  buuuut back to topic I doubt that USAfrogs would limit themselves to two frogs in a 10 gallon.


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## GandalfTheGrey

They most definitely do not limit their selves with the 5 or 10 gallon rule (whichever you follow). Here's a chart for how many frogs they would cram into a 10 gallon:
10 Leader (common)	20.3" x 10.5" x 12.6" ~200 sq. inches 3 Auratus & Leucomelas/2-3 Tinctorius


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## Ed

GandalfTheGrey said:


> They most definitely do not limit their selves with the 5 or 10 gallon rule (whichever you follow). Here's a chart for how many frogs they would cram into a 10 gallon:
> 10 Leader (common)	20.3" x 10.5" x 12.6" ~200 sq. inches 3 Auratus & Leucomelas/2-3 Tinctorius


I hate to step into this thread but this is something I think needs to be qualified as there are problems with both parties (DFW and the hobbyists) here on the topic of space. 
What both parties are recommending and commenting on is nothing more than dogma as it is without the qualifiers to put it into perspective. 
Before we get "dog pile on the rabbit syndrome". For a very long time the general rule of thumb when sizing tanks/frog was to use the five gallons/frog rule of thumb (and it was very successful). When this became set in stone dogma I deconstructed this argument to demonstrate that as the size of the enclosure increases the space/frog actually decreases if the rule of thumb is held the same. So what the hobby did next was to increase it to ten gallons/frog which still ignores the fact that the volume available to the frog still decreases rapidly as the size of the enclosure increases. 

Using an example I've used before, an are 1 inch by 1 inch many feet high is still ten gallons but it is clearly not suitable for frog. 

This is again before we consider how a enclosure is set up. Both parties are remiss in that they leave out the important recommendations on proper set up before jumping into dogma that is actually meaningless without discussing the importance of setup. 

If you want to read the arguments about this this see 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38159-how-many-frogs-can-i-fit.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/64141-ideal-tank-size-tincs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/68047-recommended-space-needed-per-frog.html

*If you want to discuss size/frog then there are many threads where this can be done or start a new thread. I'm not going to continue the argument here as it derails the thread but the presentation of those recommendations isn't correct by either party and the hobbyist argument against it is just as flawed as their recommendations. * 

Some comments 

Ed


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## GandalfTheGrey

Thanks Ed, the floor space put the frog/gallon idea into a whole new perspective. But, back to the main subject, I can look in some old SD cards and see if I can find any pics of the frogs, the tank, and how they came packaged.


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## GandalfTheGrey

I found a couple pics of the frogs and their packaging, and the tank that they were in. Here they are:


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## jarteta97

Thank you for the information Ed, always glad to hear what you have to say  I'll definitely be taking this into serious consideration. I like to err on the side of caution, such as putting only a pair instead of a trio in an 18x18x24. That being said, I feel that we should always be encouraging larger tanks for less frogs, and improving enclosures in more than just size. Sometimes, as well, we forget that even if you have a 100 gallon tank for a pair or trio, if the enclosure does not adequately mimic their habitat, changes in behavior or other issues could occur. Just my two cents, but of course my opinions could be completely wrong, and that's where Ed and others more knowledgeable can jump in and correct me


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## jarteta97

But yes, back to the topic. Are the deli containers what they were shipped in? Or are they temporary or (I sure hope not) permanent holdings? I'm really not surprised by their enclosures. Reminds me of a recent expo I went where a breeder gave a lesson on how to keep frogs, and he recommended enclosures like this and even presented one to us. His statement almost word for word, "In the (something like) 8 years I've spent keeping frogs, I have never lost a frog to overcrowding". He openly admitted to keeping 4 to 5 frogs in a 10 gallon. Not only this, but that statement implies that he lost frogs but just doesn't associate their deaths with overcrowding. In hindsight I should have corrected him, but I also doubt that a 50 something year old man who has "years under his belt" is going to listen to some whelping 18 year old like me


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## GandalfTheGrey

The deli cups are what they were shipped in, sorry for not specifying.


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## GandalfTheGrey

Also the tank was what I personally kept them in, not USA frogs.


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## jarteta97

Something I noticed with the man I spoke to was that he didn't seem well versed in some of the newer advances in the hobby, indicating to me that he likely doesn't keep up on forums or even discuss new things with colleagues or friends. There was no mind paid to leaf litter, he kind of scoffed at misting systems, and I don't remember him specifying the parameters required for lighting, such as Kelvin and lumens, and most certainly not PAR. 

Also Gandalf, I wonder how long ago you got the frogs? Were you following the instructions given by them? Were you new at the time? I don't mean to insult at all, I'm just trying to envision and better see the types of enclosures they are promoting, what kind of information they are giving by word of mouth, and really just how they conduct business with their unfortunate customers.


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## GandalfTheGrey

jareta97, I understand why you are asking these questions, so no insults were taken. As for the time of the purchase, it was late October 2014. As for the care, the USA Frog people really stressed on the leaf litter. They recommended I have at least 2 inches of it completely covering the floor (if I remember correctly). They also recommended I have slightly higher temps than other sources suggested, I can't remember the exact temps. Lighting was not a big concern of theirs, I think they said something along the lines of using one lamp straddled between two tanks themselves. Also, planting wasn't a big concern of theirs. I'm sure something else will come to me later, but now this is all I can think of that they said about frog care.


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## GandalfTheGrey

Also as a general question, has anyone ever tried to boycott USA Frogs? Just a random question that occurred to me...


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## jarteta97

Here in the hobby we at the very least "strongly discourage" them but this thread is kind of evidence enough of the taboo nature of their operation. Unfortunately those that tend to fall prey to their marketing tactics are the newbies to the hobby. The low prices of the frogs, the "catchy" names, bright website, lofty promises, and trademarks all are used to make them appear competitive, clean, and professional, and thus many are ensnared. Unfortunately, the majority of people who make impulse buys or who are less experienced are not on the forums, and are not privy to the information here. Of course, no matter how much we complain about newbies not using the search button and having to answer obsolete answers that are already present on the forum, we also always want to supply the newer members with proper care instructions, and on the whole, we encourage them to increase their knowledge. So to answer your question, the majority of the forum, and most prominent or well known breeders or sellers do boycott them.


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## GandalfTheGrey

Yeah, I agree with the beginners falling prey to the promising website (I was one of them). Has anyone tried to get the reality of USA frogs out of the forums and onto YouTube or some other Media and urge the people who don't look on this site to boycott USA Frogs? A lot of people seem to do that with BackWater Reptiles.


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## GandalfTheGrey

Maybe we could also urge some of the popular frog websites to put the link to this thread on their sites, to also raise awareness.


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## greenthumbs

GandalfTheGrey said:


> Maybe we could also urge some of the popular frog websites to put the link to this thread on their sites, to also raise awareness.


Probably not. I'd bet USA Frog would spin a lawsuit out of that.


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## jarteta97

You're probably right, or they'd try to trademark the word frog, or maybe a collection of words, like "lie", "cheat", "dishonest", "hybridize", "improper care", and "crappy marketing" lol


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## GandalfTheGrey

lol you're right but maybe we could still get word out of the forums through a YouTube video like some did with Backwater Reptiles


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## zerelli

I encourage you to be cautious about such comments. Search the internet for lawsuits about Aquatic Plants Digest. It was an ugly mess.



GandalfTheGrey said:


> lol you're right but maybe we could still get word out of the forums through a YouTube video like some did with Backwater Reptiles


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## Boondoggle

GandalfTheGrey said:


> Has anyone tried to get the reality of USA frogs out of the forums and onto YouTube or some other Media and urge the people who don't look on this site to boycott USA Frogs? A lot of people seem to do that with BackWater Reptiles.


The mouthpiece for DFW has made litigious threats on a number of occasions over "cyber-bullying", although he kind of blew it when he started tracking down who people were via IP address and making ominous open ended threats. It's hard to make a case that someone is intimidating you when double down on "the creepy". On a couple of occasions I've been PM'd by other board members warning me that It would probably be in my best interest to back off. Once I was told "inquiries were being made", whatever that means. I even got mentioned on their site once (but now I'm totally just bragging), despite that fact that I think all I've ever done is just disagree with their husbandry advice, criticize their business model, and site factual, provable events.

They like to make it appear as if there's a specific smear campaign against them personally, instead a correction of misleading information, so I think any talk of boycott would rocket them straight into martyr mode and they'd get nasty. 

Plus, the proof is in the pudding. You can market solely to the uninformed for a while, I guess, but like you, they often eventually get informed, and then there goes your customer base. You then have to find new uninformed. 

This isn't really provable, but I would expect a large number frogs sold in pet stores are doomed anyway, if DFW is wholesaling frogs to that market and filling that "frog-sink", then that's not all bad. I just still think it's the height of stupidity to ignore market demand/opinion just out of stubbornness to the point of devastating your own venture. Really, the only legacy that DFW will leave behind is cutting tincs market value in half in order to move their unwanted product. I guess you can run a business that way if you want, but that's a hell of a thing to give up your kids college educations for.


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## GandalfTheGrey

zerelli said:


> I encourage you to be cautious about such comments. Search the internet for lawsuits about Aquatic Plants Digest. It was an ugly mess.


It definitely was, just finished reading about it. Maybe best if we don't comment outside of the forum...


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## justcoolforyou

Designerfrogs? I don't see the difference between this and what the hobby did with chocolate bumblebees and fine spot azureus etc. Breeding recessive traits have been done by most in the hobby which is not a result of mixing frogs. 

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


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## PFG

Your examples may not be the result of hybridization, but the "designer frogs" in question are. Not sure what your point was.


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## justcoolforyou

PFG said:


> Your examples may not be the result of hybridization, but the "designer frogs" in question are. Not sure what your point was.


My point is that what's called designer frogs is not unique to usafrogs. I seen those types of frogs and yes they are not coming from usafrogs... can you point out which frogs are hybrids? I feel its only recessive traits that usafrogs is focusing on breeding but i could be wrong ...

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


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## FrogTim

The problem is, USAfrog labels these unique frogs with their own unique names such as Quasar and HoneyBee so there's no way to tell if these are hybrids, line-bred specimens or unique looking individuals from an established morph. If you look on one of their many websites, you will find questionable color combinations especially on their tincs. They have individuals with color combinations I have never seen anywhere else. Does this mean 100% certainty they are hybrids? No. But these frogs should be treated as their own separate morphs and not mixed with other frogs even if they look exactly the same. 

They recently changed the wording on the website, but they were claiming they 'created' their koetari river morph through line-breeding and their line didn't originate from wild caught individuals. EVERY naturally occurring morph of dart frog comes from wild caught specimens whether legal or not. This is misinformation the frogs are either koetari river tincs originating from wild caught ancestors, or these are NOT koetari river tincs but just line bred individuals made to look like koetari river tincs would. 


Misrepresentation of frogs is the worst thing that can happen in this hobby IMO. Where it came from, was it line-bred, if it's a hybrid should all be disclosed. Misrepresentation usually starts with a dishonest person, and then is spread by ignorant people unaware they have been duped. Especially in our little niche hobby, a true morph could be completely wiped out due to mixing with mislabeled frogs. Since many of these frogs are endangered to the point of not existing in the wild anymore, it would be horrible to see a morph of frogs go extinct due to nothing other than dishonesty and greed.


I was foolish enough to order from USAfrog (they are cheap!) before I found this forum. Nice guy on the phone tried to tell me I could fit way too many frogs in the enclosure I had and tried to upsell different morphs. My frogs are still growing up but my 2 Green&bronze auratus look VERY different from each other. One looks green&black while the other looks like an El Cope. It's a shame because now I have to keep them separate and if I ever offer their offspring it will be under the title "Auratus medley" lineage: USAfrog


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## Boondoggle

justcoolforyou said:


> Designerfrogs? I don't see the difference between this and what the hobby did with chocolate bumblebees and fine spot azureus etc. Breeding recessive traits have been done by most in the hobby which is not a result of mixing frogs.
> 
> There's definitely a difference. Which one is worse is up for debate. With selective breeding genetic diversity is lost, but can be regained by breeding with non line-bred stock. A chocolate bumblebee leuc is still a leuc and when bred with a wild type leuc will produce only leucs. That frog, genetically, could exist in nature.
> 
> A hybridized frog is always a hybridized frog, and those in it's lineage are always hybridized frogs. So those genetics aren't narrowed down for the hobby, they're completely lost. That line is permanently altered. That frog, genetically, could not exist in nature.
> 
> Again, I don't think one is morally better than the other. If, however, you take into account the clear cultural preferences of the hobby and how they realistically and financially affect sales (which affect breeding, which affects availability, which affects demand on wild frogs) then it's pretty clear that hybridization has a much more detrimental effect on the hobby. The negative effect line breeding may have on the hobby is much more gradual and recoverable.
> 
> In other words, historically, the fact that chocolate leucs exist hasn't dissuaded anyone from buying non line-bred leucs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk





justcoolforyou said:


> My point is that what's called designer frogs is not unique to usafrogs. I seen those types of frogs and yes they are not coming from usafrogs... can you point out which frogs are hybrids? I feel its only recessive traits that usafrogs is focusing on breeding but i could be wrong ...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


USAfrogs does not share their recipes for designer frogs, but based on the facts that they've both defended their right to hybridize from the start, as well as done their best to muddy and redefine the term, it's certain they are hybridizing. They've never denied it, just redefined it. Also, even after taking into account natural variability, it's not realistic to think they are getting drastically different designer frogs from two generations of selective breeding alone. I'm sure it's some of column A and some of column B.


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## Ed

FrogTim said:


> Since many of these frogs are endangered to the point of not existing in the wild anymore, it would be horrible to see a morph of frogs go extinct due to nothing other than dishonesty and greed.


Point of fact ... 
Most dendrobatid frogs in the wild aren't at serious risk of extinction. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

justcoolforyou said:


> Designerfrogs? I don't see the difference between this and what the hobby did with chocolate bumblebees and fine spot azureus etc. Breeding recessive traits have been done by most in the hobby which is not a result of mixing frogs.


One of the things in this hobby is that over time the recommendation for those frogs is to breed them back into the general population of those frogs. In other words fine spots azureus should be bred back into the regular azureus population. What a lot of people don't know is that the fine spot azureus is a normal pattern variation that can show up in offspring from non-fine spot parents. With breeding them back into the normal population people can have fine spots by simplying looking for them without having them continually line bred to perpetuate the morph. 

The recommendation for the chocolate leucomelas is to again just mix them back into the general population and if they show up after that point its not a big deal. 

This cannot be done with hybrid frogs for a wide variety of reasons and if you read the entire thread you would find that a significant part of this problem is because they have over time argued that populations of the same species that are not in contact with one another for thousands of years, when crossed are not hybrids. 

I suggest reading through all of the documented changes on their sites captured in this thread for an accurate picture. 


Some comments 

Ed
Ed


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## TheCoop

justcoolforyou said:


> Designerfrogs? I don't see the difference between this and what the hobby did with chocolate bumblebees and fine spot azureus etc. Breeding recessive traits have been done by most in the hobby which is not a result of mixing frogs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


Line breeding is one thing, Crossing frogs is another. I have yet to see one single comment from you that has any merit behind it.


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## justcoolforyou

TheCoop said:


> Line breeding is one thing, Crossing frogs is another. I have yet to see one single comment from you that has any merit behind it.


I see

Sent from my SM-G928P using Tapatalk


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## tardis101

Ed said:


> The recommendation for the chocolate leucomelas is to again just mix them back into the general population and if they show up after that point its not a big deal.
> 
> This cannot be done with hybrid frogs for a wide variety of reasons...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed
> Ed


I"m not sure this is a correct statement. I say this because what i see on here repeatedly is that you can't always tell what morph a frog is just by looking. There have been a couple threads recently about uncertainty regarding yellow vs orange terribillis. A number of arguments have also been made that once hybrids are in the main stream people aren't going to know if they have pure frogs or not. If someone can't tell then it sounds like you can mix them back into the population. 

Mike


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## PFG

Ah, so as long as no one knows, it's okay. Gotcha.


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## tardis101

PFG said:


> Ah, so as long as no one knows, it's okay. Gotcha.


I didn't say that. I don't think anyone should sell anything (frogs or otherwise) without fully disclosing what they know about whatever they are selling. I was responding to Ed's statement that they can't be mixed back into the population with a similar outcome as to mixing chocolate leucs back into it's "parent" population.


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## PFG

tardis101 said:


> I didn't say that. I don't think anyone should sell anything (frogs or otherwise) without fully disclosing what they know about whatever they are selling. I was responding to Ed's statement that they can't be mixed back into the population with a similar outcome as to mixing chocolate leucs back into it's "parent" population.


Only it would very much be different. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but to my understanding a chocolate leuc is just a genetic mutation, and breeding it back to normal ones would still produce regular, 100% pure leucs. Doing so with a hybrid just makes more hybrids.

Give me 10 pairs of albino ball pythons and 10 pairs of pied ball pythons, and I'll give you 20 clutches containing nothing but normal looking, pure ball pythons. Keep at it for a few generations, and you can even eliminate the albino and pied genes entirely. 

Now pair a ball/blood cross to a normal, and all you're going to get is a 75% ball 25% blood hybrid. You can keep crossing it back into normal balls for as long as you'd like, but that blood DNA will always be there.


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> I"m not sure this is a correct statement. I say this because what i see on here repeatedly is that you can't always tell what morph a frog is just by looking. There have been a couple threads recently about uncertainty regarding yellow vs orange terribillis. A number of arguments have also been made that once hybrids are in the main stream people aren't going to know if they have pure frogs or not. If someone can't tell then it sounds like you can mix them back into the population.
> 
> Mike


Chocolate leucomelas are a genetic mutation affecting the color of the nominant leucomelas that shows up in the regular population from time to time. Some breeders were line breeding them for awhile due to popularity but a lot of people have since bred them back into the population from which they were selected. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

PFG said:


> Only it would very much be different. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but to my understanding a chocolate leuc is just a genetic mutation, and breeding it back to normal ones would still produce regular, 100% pure leucs. .


Correct. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101

Ed said:


> Chocolate leucomelas are a genetic mutation affecting the color of the nominant leucomelas that shows up in the regular population from time to time. Some breeders were line breeding them for awhile due to popularity but a lot of people have since bred them back into the population from which they were selected.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Yes I'm aware of that. But what we don't know is if the color patterns of the various (say tinc morphs) will show up if you cross the morphs, such as in subsequent generations. Do adults that look like one morph throw offspring that look like another? Based on the little genetic studies out there on tincs, the color morphs are not significantly different, it also appears to be based on female mate selection (although it's conceivable that it could be predator selection). We also don't know if the locals where frogs were originally (or subsequently) collected were sufficiently sampled to get a representative sample of the population. All we know is that people are selectively breeding individuals from the same local based on appearance. My earlier point about mixing morphs of different colors and then later not being able to tell them apart from pure morphs still stands. It might be wrong. But to definitively say that you can't do it (or in my argument that you could), isn't supported in the literature. The bottom line is we don't know for sure. Someone would have to test it.


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> Yes I'm aware of that. But what we don't know is if the color patterns of the various (say tinc morphs) will show up if you cross the morphs, such as in subsequent generations. Do adults that look like one morph throw offspring that look like another? Based on the little genetic studies out there on tincs, the color morphs are not significantly different, it also appears to be based on female mate selection (although it's conceivable that it could be predator selection). We also don't know if the locals where frogs were originally (or subsequently) collected were sufficiently sampled to get a representative sample of the population. All we know is that people are selectively breeding individuals from the same local based on appearance. My earlier point about mixing morphs of different colors and then later not being able to tell them apart from pure morphs still stands. It might be wrong. But to definitively say that you can't do it (or in my argument that you could), isn't supported in the literature. The bottom line is we don't know for sure. Someone would have to test it.



This supposition is only valid if your guessing at the origin of the frogs. In both the case of the fine spot azureus (which has always appeared in the normal captive population as well as the wild population), and the chocolate leucomelas, the origins are known. As the chocolate leucomelas is due to a simple recessive mutation it is hard to mistake it for anything else. 

I'm not sure why your trying to take the case to a wide group of frogs as I've been really specific as to the two populations in question and those two populations are well documented. 

some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101

Ed said:


> ...I'm not sure why your trying to take the case to a wide group of frogs as I've been really specific as to the two populations in question and those two populations are well documented.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Because you said this: 


Ed said:


> ...This cannot be done with hybrid frogs for a wide variety of reasons and if you read the entire thread you would find that a significant part of this problem is because they have over time argued that populations of the same species that are not in contact with one another for thousands of years, when crossed are not hybrids.
> 
> Ed


So my point was I don't think you can definitively say that (which I said previously).


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## justcoolforyou

I can imagine if some else other then usafrogs tried to focus on breeding pure frogs but focus on recessive traits would end up with similar frogs like (usafrogs designer frogs) . I don't see how designer frogs could not be 100 % pure?


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## Scott

I believe they only way "designer frogs" could be considered 100% of anything, would be if you were thinking 100% pure [email protected]

s


justcoolforyou said:


> ... I don't see how designer frogs could not be 100 % pure?


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## justcoolforyou

Scott said:


> I believe they only way "designer frogs" could be considered 100% of anything, would be if you were thinking 100% pure [email protected]
> 
> s
> 
> 
> justcoolforyou said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I don't see how designer frogs could not be 100 % pure?
Click to expand...

Then your statement would apply to the chocolate leucs etc...we all know this frogs where designed by the hobbies and they all look the other way...


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## phender

justcoolforyou said:


> I can imagine if some else other then usafrogs tried to focus on breeding pure frogs but focus on recessive traits would end up with similar frogs like (usafrogs designer frogs) . I don't see how designer frogs could not be 100 % pure?


Many people are producing 100% pure designer frogs perhaps without really knowing it. If you buy a couple frogs hoping to make a pair and you choose the "best looking" frog to your eye (the brightest red bastis, the ones with the smallest/fewest spots, the veradero with the most orange, the auratus with the coolest patterns) you are selecting for specific traits with the hope of the offspring sharing those same traits. I suppose you could consider those offspring "designer" frogs.

However, USdartfrog has already admitted that at least some of their frogs have come from their hybridization of different tinc morphs. It may not be on their site anymore, but they were bragging about it for a while. So, while it is possible for designer frogs to be 100% pure, their's are not.


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## phender

justcoolforyou said:


> Then your statement would apply to the chocolate leucs etc...we all know this frogs where designed by the hobbies and they all look the other way...



The difference is chocolate leucs weren't designed by the hobby. They are a naturally occurring phenomena. Some hobbyists have chosen to make them occur more frequently, others know the gene is in their line and are pleasantly surprised (or disappointed) when one shows up in their tad cups.


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## Dane

justcoolforyou said:


> Then your statement would apply to the chocolate leucs etc...we all know this frogs where designed by the hobbies and they all look the other way...


A chocolate leuc is still derived from a single population, not a mix of locales, and it can occur without any selectivity on the part of the breeder. NONE of my tincs or leucs will ever produce a "Pulsar" or "Sunspot", or any other such garbled genetic nonsense.


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## Boondoggle

justcoolforyou said:


> Then your statement would apply to the chocolate leucs etc...we all know this frogs where designed by the hobbies and they all look the other way...


Yes and no. I'm noticing the terms here are drifting in definition in an effort to leverage debate. "Designer frogs" is just a pejorative term used casually in the hobby and if you notice in the above page can include or exclude hybrids, crossbreeds, multi-generation line breeding, or just someone unconsciously selectively breeding based on purchasing visually desirable stock. If you're arguing the "Designer Frog" debate, you need to be specific. 

Also, "the hobby" is a less homogeneous entity than you seem to indicate. I'm in the hobby, I've never owned chocolate leucs. 99% of the people reading this could say the same thing. 

I even avoid the term "hybrid" when talking about this because, while it's 100% scientifically accurate, Rick's camp likes to derail the argument into what defines a hybrid as far as he's concerned. That argument is pretty pointless, anyway, because all the strongest arguments against hybridizing across species applies to crossbreding tincs.

For the sake of argument, let's define "the hobby" as the hobbyists ability in the present and future to be able to responsibly keep and breed a wide selection of darts in such a manner that they thrive and breed, while respecting wild populations and their continued existence, all the while improving husbandry/keeping techniques through shared knowledge. If that's "the hobby", then line breeding frogs is not good for the hobby, but hybridizing and crossbreeding frogs is absolutely detrimental to the hobby.


----------



## tardis101

Boondoggle said:


> ... If that's "the hobby", then line breeding frogs is not good for the hobby, but hybridizing and crossbreeding frogs is absolutely detrimental to the hobby.


I've said it several times, but I guess I'll be dumb and say it again. If this is referring to the health of frogs, then it's not a correct statement. It's an opinion, which is fine. It may even be a correct opinion, but there is no data on dart frogs genetics to support the conclusion. In my opinion, line breeding, breeding closely related frogs, and starting CB populations with few individuals is likely far more detrimental to the long term viability of these frogs in captivity.

If folks don't like it. Just say that. I don't particularly like it either.


----------



## Dane

tardis101 said:


> If folks don't like it. Just say that. I don't particularly like it either.


Could've fooled me.


----------



## tardis101

Dane said:


> Could've fooled me.


Then you haven't been reading my posts, or you're conveniently ignoring what I've said. I've said it many times. 

My issue is hijacking science to push an agenda.


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## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> Then you haven't been reading my posts, or you're conveniently ignoring what I've said. I've said it many times.
> 
> *My issue is hijacking science to push an agenda*.


Which, without proof of your own opinions, is EXACTLY what you do every time you weigh in on the topic in any thread that brings it up. 

Saying that there is no definitive evidence to support either side, then not giving an opinion, would be neutral. Saying that there's no evidence for one side, then giving an opinion that the other way is better in your opinion while glossing over the fact that said opinion has exactly the same paucity of evidence is doing exactly the bolded, while being intellectually dishonest at best and intentionally subversive at worst.


----------



## tardis101

Calivet said:


> Which, without proof of your own opinions, is EXACTLY what you do every time you weigh in on the topic in any thread that brings it up.
> 
> Saying that there is no definitive evidence to support either side, then not giving an opinion, would be neutral. Saying that there's no evidence for one side, then giving an opinion that the other way is better in your opinion while glossing over the fact that said opinion has exactly the same paucity of evidence is doing exactly the bolded, while being intellectually dishonest at best and intentionally subversive at worst.


No that's not what I've done at all. I don't need to prove an opinion, no one does. I've stated something as an opinion, that's all it is. And people should weight that for what it is. I believe, although I may not be remembering correctly since this topic so old, this is the first time I've stated an opinion about what is more likely a problem for CB dart frog populations.

The problem is people stating their opinions as if they are facts and not at all pointing out that it isn't a fact. Then going on to say the science is there to support that opinion. That's the intellectual dishonesty. The subversive part is people trying to pass off opinion as fact to gather support for their point of view. I'm not trying to gather support for any particular point of view other than to make sure people know what the science says vs when someone is presenting an opinion.


----------



## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> No that's not what I've done at all. I don't need to prove an opinion, no one does. I've stated something as an opinion, that's all it is. And people should weight that for what it is. I believe, although I may not be remembering correctly since this topic so old, this is the first time I've stated an opinion about what is more likely a problem for CB dart frog populations.
> 
> The problem is people stating their opinions as if they are facts and not at all pointing out that it isn't a fact. Then going on to say the science is there to support that opinion. That's the intellectual dishonesty. The subversive part is people trying to pass off opinion as fact to gather support for their point of view. I'm not trying to gather support for any particular point of view other than to make sure people know what the science says vs when someone is presenting an opinion.


When you say that there is "no data", you are misrepresenting science, not giving an opinion. There is no "definitive data", but that's not what you're saying. Saying that there is NO data when there is is intellectually dishonest, and in doing so you are pushing the agenda that it's ok for everyone to make their own opinion on it. 

Well, I'll give you that you may be giving an opinion, but your opinion is wrong, based on the rules of evidence.


----------



## tardis101

Calivet said:


> When you say that there is "no data", you are misrepresenting science, not giving an opinion. There is no "definitive data", but that's not what you're saying. Saying that there is NO data when there is is intellectually dishonest, and in doing so you are pushing the agenda that it's ok for everyone to make their own opinion on it.
> 
> Well, I'll give you that you may be giving an opinion, but your opinion is wrong, based on the rules of evidence.


No sir. You just misquoted me. I said there is no genetic data on dart frogs to support the conclusion. As far as I'm aware that's correct. There is data about out breeding depression in some species. And I've never said outbreeding depression isn't a "thing." However, the data in those cases are enough to support a hypotheiss (which I've said several times also, please go back and re-read my past posts on this). But a hypothesis isn't a fact.


----------



## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> No sir. You just misquoted me. *I said there is no genetic data on dart frogs to support the conclusion*. As far as I'm aware that's correct. There is data about out breeding depression in some species. And I've never said outbreeding depression isn't a "thing." However, the data in those cases are enough to support a hypotheiss (which I've said several times also, please go back and re-read my past posts on this). *But a hypothesis isn't a fact.*


There are no facts in science. Only hypotheses that are supported enough to be considered as good as facts. 

There is absolutely genetic data to SUPPORT the conclusion, just not enough to prove the hypothesis to the point where it is accepted as fact. you need to be much more careful with the words you use if you're going to engage in sophistry.


----------



## tardis101

Calivet said:


> There are no facts in science. Only hypotheses that are supported enough to be considered as good as facts.
> 
> There is absolutely genetic data to SUPPORT the conclusion, just not enough to prove the hypothesis to the point where it is accepted as fact. you need to be much more careful with the words you use if you're going to engage in sophistry.


Oh for crying out loud.  Gravity is a theory, but it's also considered a fact. My point, which again I've made before, is that while there is enough information to formulate a hypothesis, that's all you have. Now that needs to be tested (but no one is going to do it I suspect for fear of being black balled in the hobby) in order to make more definitive statements about whether mixing morphs (or crossing species, etc.) has a detrimental effect to dart frogs.

By all means feel free to post the genetic studies on dart frogs that support your hypothesis. So far all I've seen folks post are studies (or models) on other organisms (like a self incompatible hermaphroditic nematode for example) and inferring that it's applicable to dart frogs and then making the logic leap to say it IS a problem. That's the error. Not that the opinion isn't right or wrong.


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## Dendro Dave

tardis101 said:


> Oh for crying out loud.  Gravity is a theory, but it's also considered a fact. My point, which again I've made before, is that while there is enough information to formulate a hypothesis, that's all you have. Now that needs to be tested (but no one is going to do it I suspect for fear of being black balled in the hobby) in order to make more definitive statements about whether mixing morphs (or crossing species, etc.) has a detrimental effect to dart frogs.
> 
> By all means feel free to post the genetic studies on dart frogs that support your hypothesis. So far all I've seen folks post are studies (or models) on other organisms (like a self incompatible hermaphroditic nematode for example) and inferring that it's applicable to dart frogs and then making the logic leap to say it IS a problem. That's the error. Not that the opinion isn't right or wrong.


As far as I know it may or may not be detrimental to health in some cases, but that possibility is only one aspect of the larger "anti designer frog" sentiment.

Its is entirely possible that at some point to continue to have a viable captive population of a specific species, or a morph (or a very similar frog that approximates a real more as best we can) may at some point require us to cross morphs, or maybe even species.... I think while most hope it doesn't come to that, most will also recognize that possibility.

The problem many of us have (in part) is that USAfrog has taken it upon themselves to make this decision for us, and other then admitting to crossing frogs they aren't being terribly transparent in how they are creating their designer frogs (Not that being more transparent would really solve much, or remedy so many of us being truly pissed off by their antics).

They have flat out stated they believe their practices are the best for the frogs and by extension the rest of the hobby (I assume) since they aren't being very transparent, and with all the made up names and selling designer frogs next to pure frogs while proving to many of us they can't be trusted... Makes it real hard for most of us to be comfortable with their actions, especially when you factor in all the other BS surrounding them and their actions AND when using some pretty sketchy science or more accurately pseudoscience to back of their agenda then we get even more annoyed.

Now we haven't been completely innocent of representing the science imperfectly, but overall just by virtue of so many with a similar opinion and presenting their points with other people helping to flesh out and verify the validity of those points (and Facts) Vs USAfrog going it alone mostly with only a few supporters, some of which have probably hurt their side more then helped.... We IMHO have the stronger argument overall, even when some of us (including myself) don't quite get every detail right.

I see the merit in pointing that out. It is good to have some people keep us honest and make sure all our frogs are in a row to have the strongest argument possible, but lets remember who the *real enemy is* here everyone... 
*USAfrogs*


----------



## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> I've said it several times, but I guess I'll be dumb and say it again. If this is referring to the health of frogs, then it's not a correct statement. It's an opinion, which is fine. It may even be a correct opinion, but there is no data on dart frogs genetics to support the conclusion. In my opinion, line breeding, breeding closely related frogs, and starting CB populations with few individuals is likely far more detrimental to the long term viability of these frogs in captivity.
> 
> If folks don't like it. Just say that. I don't particularly like it either.


I was not referring to the health of the frogs. I've said it scores of times but I'll be dumb and say it again. I was referring to the social economic patterns we see in the hobby consistently. I'm talking about people, not frogs. When doubt is cast on a frogs lineage and people feel that a specifically named frog may not be representative of a real population, then people stop buying that frog. Then people stop breeding that frog. Legitimate or not, it disappears from the hobby.

See my previous examples about chocolate leucs or Regina/Giant Orange. 

Line breeding, intentional or not, is bad. I don't think anyone is arguing that (I'm not even sure if this is the thread to do so). But it will not remove a breed from the bobby nearly as quickly as human perception.

The internet - A place where no matter how succinctly or carefully you make a statement, no matter how clearly or repetitively you make a point, someone will still come along and argue sarcastically with something you didn't say.


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> Oh for crying out loud.  Gravity is a theory, but it's also considered a fact. My point, which again I've made before, is that while there is enough information to formulate a hypothesis, that's all you have. Now that needs to be tested (but no one is going to do it I suspect for fear of being black balled in the hobby) in order to make more definitive statements about whether mixing morphs (or crossing species, etc.) has a detrimental effect to dart frogs.
> 
> By all means feel free to post the genetic studies on dart frogs that support your hypothesis. So far all I've seen folks post are studies (or models) on other organisms (like a self incompatible hermaphroditic nematode for example) and inferring that it's applicable to dart frogs and then making the logic leap to say it IS a problem. That's the error. Not that the opinion isn't right or wrong.


And as Calivet clearly pointed out your misrepresenting the entire argument by attempting to deny the risks as demonstrated by multiple organisms. *Based on your standards as has been pointed out before the extrapolation process you apply would mean that although gravity has been directly measured on the earth, those measurements cannot be applied to gravity on Jupiter or Neptune because it hasn't been directly measured. That is complete and utter bull and you use that argument to repeatedly engage in sophistry.* 

so your argument is bull and that is all it shall ever be .... 

some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101

Ed said:


> And as Calivet clearly pointed out your misrepresenting the entire argument by attempting to deny the risks as demonstrated by multiple organisms. *Based on your standards as has been pointed out before the extrapolation process you apply would mean that although gravity has been directly measured on the earth, those measurements cannot be applied to gravity on Jupiter or Neptune because it hasn't been directly measured. That is complete and utter bull and you use that argument to repeatedly engage in sophistry.*
> 
> so your argument is bull and that is all it shall ever be ....
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


No Ed that's wildly incorrect. I have several times said that while outreeding depression is an actual "thing" (i.e., the studies of it's problems in some species are valid), what I continue to point out is the incorrect application of that concept on dart frogs. Science does not work that way. You're example by the way is in fact wrong. Because by your example above, you would assume that gravity is exactly the same on every planet. That's an incorrect inference because it completely ignores any other factors, such as mass, density, etc, of the other planets. But you would have us ignore basic population genetics in favor of your theory.

I'd be more than happy to read a paper on dart frog population genetics that supports the outbreeding depression theory. But no one will be able to present one, because as far as I'm aware it hasn't been studied. 

Mike


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## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> No Ed that's wildly incorrect. I have several times said that while outreeding depression is an actual "thing" (i.e., the studies of it's problems in some species are valid), what I continue to point out is the incorrect application of that concept on dart frogs. Science does not work that way. You're example by the way is in fact wrong. Because by your example above, you would assume that gravity is exactly the same on every planet. That's an incorrect inference because it completely ignores any other factors, such as mass, density, etc, of the other planets. But you would have us ignore basic population genetics in favor of your theory.
> 
> I'd be more than happy to read a paper on dart frog population genetics that supports the outbreeding depression theory. But no one will be able to present one, because as far as I'm aware it hasn't been studied.
> 
> Mike


I'm trying to remember your argument here. Is it that the "while there are papers documenting outbreeding depression, there aren't any documenting it in dart frogs, and therefore outbreeding depression has not been proven in dart frogs"?


----------



## Ed

Boondoggle said:


> I'm trying to remember your argument here. Is it that the "while there are papers documenting outbreeding depression, there aren't any documenting it in dart frogs, and therefore outbreeding depression has not been proven in dart frogs"?


You left off a part of his argument. Since it hasn't been proven in dart frogs (but has been proven in other frogs) we shouldn't/can't use that information to base an assumption that outbreeding is a risk to the captive populations and therefore the hobby shouldn't be so hostile to hybrids. 

He's going to say that isn't his position as he doesn't like hybrids but that is the chain and gist of his argument. 

The reason it is pure and utter BS is apparent when you consider other scenarios using that logic chain that even though it hasn't been studied we can't make assumptions/treat it as fact despite the "white" papers documenting it in other pretty much all taxa studied. 

For example, a new "tree" is discovered but because that exact "tree species" hasn't been explicitly studied to confirm it, you can't proceed treat it as fact that it contains cellulose as a structural molecule or that the green in its leaves is due to chlorophyll or that it uses ATP to power its biologically systems or even that it contains DNA/RNA. This is why his argument violates much of the science of this whole system. The fact that his argument can be applied in this fashion to pretty much all branches of science demonstrates that it is clearly a BS position that he is using to exclude evidence he cannot explain away to try and hide the fact that it is not only an incorrect approach but complete and utter BS. 

*To expand the example of his misrepresentation of the science in his BS, he argues that inbreeding should be of concern because he thinks so, but inbreeding depression has not been proven to exist in dendrobatids but has been shown to exist in multiple other taxa (The same argument as outbreeding depression). This is the second point on which his argument become pure and BS. It is okay for him to claim that inbreeding is a problem (but hasn't been explicitly studied in or published on dart frogs in the white papers) but outbreeding isn't a big problem because any argument against it isn't correct because it hasn't been studied explicitly in dendrobatids and published in the white papers. * 

I'm going to leave this with what is pretty much the standard suggestion for captive population management in this respect from the "white" papers.

Edmands, Suzanne. "Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management." Molecular Ecology 16.3 (2007): 463-475. 



> . It is therefore entirely possible that intentional mixing will cure inbreeding depression in the first generation, only to induce comparable levels of outbreeding depression in the second generation.


and


> Meanwhile, managers can minimize the risks of both inbreeding and outbreeding by using intentional hybridization only for populations clearly suffering from inbreeding depression, maximizing the genetic and adaptive similarity between populations, and testing the effects of hybridization for at least two generations whenever possible.


some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

If we have an example of it happening in other frogs, then I think It is *reasonable* to assume or at least extrapolate that the *possibility* exists for the same thing to occur in dart frogs... *maybe* 

If tardis is really saying that isn't reasonable just because there isn't a specific example of it in a paper on dart frogs ,then I'll agree he is splitting to fine of a hair. In fact since we at least have one example in frogs (right?), I'd suggest that an equal burden of proof on him to show that it shouldn't apply to dart frogs is a reasonable expectation.

But overall I think this is only one small facet of the problems/criticism surrounding USAfrog...


----------



## tardis101

Again it appears that you've both missed the point entirely. Unlike Ed or Dendro_dave, etc, I'm not trying to prove a position. I did say I think it's far more likely to be concerned about inbreeding depression, and I do think that. But I'm not trying to convince anyone of that position. If you want to read about inbreeding depression I'm sure Ed can provide numerous citations for it. 

Also AGAIN, I'm not trying to disprove anyone's theories. All I am saying again and again and unfortunately again is that the "evidence" that has been provided to support the conclusion that outbreeding is harmful to the CB dart frog hobby has not been supported. I've also explained why. You can choose to believe whatever you want. Those are opinions and everyone is free to have one. The reason I keep responding to these types of posts is because the opinions being presented are being presented as if they are facts and they are not. The only way to test that hypothesis would be to actually check, which if someone wanted to, could be design a relatively simply and straight forward example. Much like the one paper that has been cited as proving outbreeding depression in frogs. One would very likely only have to look at one generation of frogs to see if there is evidence of reduced fitness or not. Although you'd likely have to use wild caught frogs, or possibly one generation removed from WC. 

Also as, I've already pointed out (and I believe it was in this thread) the one paper about outbreeding in frogs is presented AFTER the smaller population already experienced a genetic bottleneck, thus concentrating the deleterious alleles and causing them to occur at a higher frequency in the small population. So that when they were reintroduced to a larger/healthier population, the larger population saw reduced fitness.

Mike


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## Dendro Dave

tardis101 said:


> Again it appears that you've both missed the point entirely. Unlike Ed or Dendro_dave, etc, I'm not trying to prove a position. I did say I think it's far more likely to be concerned about inbreeding depression, and I do think that. But I'm not trying to convince anyone of that position. If you want to read about inbreeding depression I'm sure Ed can provide numerous citations for it.
> 
> Also AGAIN, I'm not trying to disprove anyone's theories. All I am saying again and again and unfortunately again is that the "evidence" that has been provided to support the conclusion that outbreeding is harmful to the CB dart frog hobby has not been supported. I've also explained why. You can choose to believe whatever you want. Those are opinions and everyone is free to have one. The reason I keep responding to these types of posts is because the opinions being presented are being presented as if they are facts and they are not. The only way to test that hypothesis would be to actually check, which if someone wanted to, could be design a relatively simply and straight forward example. Much like the one paper that has been cited as proving outbreeding depression in frogs. One would very likely only have to look at one generation of frogs to see if there is evidence of reduced fitness or not. Although you'd likely have to use wild caught frogs, or possibly one generation removed from WC.
> 
> Also as, I've already pointed out (and I believe it was in this thread) the one paper about outbreeding in frogs is presented AFTER the smaller population already experienced a genetic bottleneck, thus concentrating the deleterious alleles and causing them to occur at a higher frequency in the small population. So that when they were reintroduced to a larger/healthier population, the larger population saw reduced fitness.
> 
> Mike


Ok to be fair I've just skimmed a lot of the posts related to this point: So let me just make sure I'm clear on his point...

Tardis your issue is that you feel we haven't been clear enough in highlighting and distinguishing between personal opinion, what might be possible, and what is an fact (supported with a paper or other good evidence), ...Correct???

If that is the case...
I feel like i've been pretty clear that I'm usually presenting an opinion, often just a possibility; but one that is supported by evidence, or verifiable facts (and point to or referencing that evidence or source of my "facts"). I also tend to stay away from "absolutes" like saying such things as "there will be out breeding depression in dart frogs because it happened in some other frogs"...I'm not perfect but I do go to great lengths to distinguish between opinion and actual fact. Much of what I do is just present a possibility and why I believe that possibility to exist. Yes I sometimes state the possibility as fact, but rarely (if ever) state beyond it just being my opinion, that it is in fact a foregone conclusion.

The difference may be subtle, and sometimes people will miss it, but again I deal in probabilities and possibilities with evidence or common sense to support them, more then actual facts or absolute outcomes.

Anyways if I understood your argument correctly Tardis; I think that you've made your point, and there is even some validity to it. Maybe at times we haven't been clear enough in distinguishing opinion from fact, and possibility or probabilities from foregone conclusions. It seems to me though you are still splitting a very fine hair, and at this point it is no longer constructive. Point made, valid (to some degree IMHO)... Can we move on  

Please? 

And...
No hard feelings  

P.S. 
If there was a problem with the study that could be a valid point worth discussing, but Ed and others are better qualified to evaluate how much impact that may have on the possibility of it occurring in dart frogs.


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> Tardis your issue is that you feel we haven't been clear enough in highlighting and distinguishing between personal opinion, what might be possible, and what is an fact (supported with a paper or other good evidence), ...Correct???



Dave,
the problem is that he is using the argument in a way that is not considered acceptable by science. If something has been identified in a wide variety of cases it can then be generalized as "fact" and it isn't required for proof to occur before using the generalization. To this point, the example I provided that a new "species" of tree doesn't have to have its tissues analyzed before we assume its structure contains cellulose or that the green in the leaves is due to chlorphyll. This is where he is misrepresnting the science principles as once it become apparent that it is a wide spread phenomena (particularly if it is spread across multiple taxa), it is no longer required to prove that it exists in a particular species or group, instead the converse is true. The exception to the rule becomes the required proof. For example, if a botanist tried to publish a paper saying it was premature to accept that the new species of coffee plant discovered in 2015 uses chlorphyll or has cellulose because that is just opinion, his paper would be rejected out of hand in any reputable journal as bad science. Submitting it to the opinion section of a reputable journal would also be ridiculous and wouldn't fly either simply because the argument is nothing more than BS.

There are innumerable examples of this application of the science, the Ames test is a classic example. The Ames test takes a chemical and depending on the protocol uses either one or two samples. The process with the second sample uses rat liver extract in which the chemical/compound is incubated to create metabolites as some chemicals only become a problem after the liver acts on them. The plates of bacteria are then exposed to the chemical(s) and incubated to look for mutations. If there are mutations then its considered mutagenic and may cause cancer in people. * In this example science has accepted that this is an equivalent to giving it to people to see if it causes cancer. A generalization that is accepted as "fact" and its not considered or applied as an opinion. 
*
*So each time he tries to argue the lack of papers/proof makes it an opinion he isn't being honest in his argument as he is clearly misrepresenting the data as well as the application. *

some comments 

Ed


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## Boondoggle

Boondoggle said:


> ...For the sake of argument, let's define "the hobby" as the hobbyists ability in the present and future to be able to responsibly keep and breed a wide selection of darts in such a manner that they thrive and breed, while respecting wild populations and their continued existence, all the while improving husbandry/keeping techniques through shared knowledge. If that's "the hobby", then line breeding frogs is not good for the hobby, but hybridizing and crossbreeding frogs is absolutely detrimental to the hobby.





tardis101 said:


> I've said it several times, but I guess I'll be dumb and say it again. If this is referring to the health of frogs, then it's not a correct statement. It's an opinion, which is fine...





Boondoggle said:


> I was not referring to the health of the frogs. I've said it scores of times but I'll be dumb and say it again. I was referring to the social economic patterns we see in the hobby consistently. I'm talking about people, not frogs...





tardis101 said:


> Again it appears that you've both missed the point entirely. Unlike Ed or Dendro_dave, etc, I'm not trying to prove a position.


For a guy that isn't trying to prove a position, you sure go out of your way to steer the conversation to this subject while ignoring the myriad other issues that this thread is actually about. I don't think I put as much effort into proving a point as you have in not proving your position. 

Please tell me as clearly as possible if I have this right. You don't believe that the studies done on inbreeding in other frogs necessarily applies to dart frogs, and when pressed as to why, it's because that is your opinion and in the absence of dart specific studies your opinion is as good as anyone's? Do I have that right?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

USA Frog - SAFE® Dart Frogs - Pet Frogs ON SALE! - Leucomelas - Warm & Calm

Meanwhile over in the Land of Oz we now have Warm and Calm Leucomelas if anyone wants to chill awhile after this latest debate


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## Charlie Q

Those "High Black Luecs" have a body shape like a tinc. Is that a real variety of luec, or did they crossed them?


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## Encyclia

USA Frog - SAFE® Dart Frogs - Pet Frogs ON SALE! - Viewing Gallery - SOLD

This link made me a bit uneasy. Why are some of the frogs "No Longer Available" while others are "Currently Unavailable?" If a hybrid doesn't sell, what happens to the parents? Are they split up and paired with other morphs to try to make more marketable hybrids? Seems like that might be the best possible scenario for these parents and it doesn't sound like an enviable fate.

Mark


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## allegedhuman

Anybody check out their “regulations” page?
This is quote from the USAfrog regulation page, just a perfect example of the ongoing issue of completely misusing scientific concepts, terms, whatever. Basic Biology? Maybe some genetics? Learn some, please? And try NOT to distort the terms and concepts for a change?

From usafrog website


> _"Can a frog that is the offspring of same species, captive bred, parents ever be a "poison dart frog"? What if a frog is later found in the wild that looks the same as the captive bred frog offspring, which one was discovered first?
> Examples  To further emphasize the need for a modified thinking and PET FROG stance, are the Villa Nova, New River, and the Sipaliwini Savannah frogs "hybrid" or not? Remember, Tinctorius are the species and the variety names are NOT official in any way. The fact is, we have bred two different tincs to produce frogs that look EXACTLY the same as the Villa Nova, New River, and the Sipaliwini Savannah purportedly found in the wild.
> 
> Sadly for now, if someone finds a wild frog it is not classified a hybrid and deemed "okay" on a chat board, but if someone through time and effort captively breeds SAME SPECIES frogs to produce the same looking frog it is labeled a "hybrid" and deemed not okay by the same talking head(s). *The use of the definition of "hybrid" alone is inconsistent as not being the same in this one-to-one comparison. Such a construction, therefore, is arbitrary for convenience to advance an agenda, and fool the unwise.*"_


Bold added by me for emphasis

Yes, the use of “hybrid” is inconsistent. Glad they finally admit it themselves after we’ve been trying to point that out MANY MANY MANY times. There are already two very well defined terms known as “interspecific” and “intraspecific” hybrids that really help in insightful, adult conversations with meaningful distinctions that have biological implications which we all have mentioned ad nauseam. It isn't just a matter that if you call a spade a hoe often enough because it sounds better and has a better market that you can actually make it BECOME a hoe no matter how often, vehemently, or forcefully you claim it as true. Words have real meanings, not just what one group would like them to mean instead.

Too bad they still missed the point. I love the irony of their last sentence in context of this whole ongoing issue with their blatant use of incorrect definitions like “not a hybrid” as a selling point to push their own business model. Hello, Pot? Meet kettle..Anyone for some self reflection? 

In addition to that choice piece of irony...Ugggh, the “bang head on keyboard” impulse is so strong with this…so…much…bad...misleading...pseudo-biology babble…


----------



## allegedhuman

Oh, and their "non-hybrid" page is another gem. Hahahah. Still can't distinguish between phenotype and genotype and their role in populations. Hahaha, sigh... 

From usa frogs non-hybrid page


> Let's lay this all out by example and watch the loose definition be reproved again and again as inconsistent and arbitrary.
> 
> Consider the following abbreviations to help the explanation.
> 
> Pop1 = Population 1 of parent 1.
> Pop2 = Population 2 of parent 2.
> App1 = Appearance 1 of parent 1.
> App2 = Appearance 2 of parent 2.
> 
> C=Breed in Captivity
> W=Breed in the Wild
> 
> Example 1. (App1=App2)(Pop1≠Pop2)1: Starting with the premise, if you breed a Smith line azureus parent frog (i.e., azureus is the commonly descriptive name for the blue frog that has been shown by OFFICIAL genetic testing to be just a tinctorius, NOT a different species) with a Jones line azureus parent frog you have created a hybrid offspring because the Smith and Jones lines are two different populations. The response most hobbyists would offer is “no”, and base their definition on the importance of variety/race (appearance) and not population proximity, even though variety/race (appearance) is not official in any way and causes misunderstandings as per the experts (blue excerpt above).
> 
> Example 2. (App1≠App2)(Pop1=Pop2): Then, consider the frogs called: New River, Villa Nova and True Sip (Sipaliwini Savannah). They are ALL recognized as "pure" Tinctorius believed to have been imported from the wild. They are haled as NOT hybrid by the hobby. (That position will probably change soon after they study this further, but you heard it here first.) Those wild caught frogs exist naturally in the wild and the two populations of their parents cannot be "isolated" otherwise they would not have bred at all.
> 
> However, after repeated breeding operations in house by us at US Dart Frog, we have proven, without a doubt, those three frogs are reproducible in the exact appearance by breeding two different looking parent Tinctorius—two different populations. This fact is shocking to those that make up their own definitions...the fact that two dissimilar frog races mated to produce offspring. While some call the offspring we produced by captive breeding a hybrid, because they were produced in captivity, and even though they look EXACTLY the same as the wild caught frog, only the wild frog is not a hybrid and yet it looks exactly the same as ours.
> 
> Now, in this case, the hobby relies on "where" the breeding occurred to define hybrid. Stated another way, they judge where the spernm and egg came together as most important for their determination of "hybrid". Note: Before the reliance was on variety/race (appearance) (Example 1.), and now the reliance is on "where" the breeding occurred (Example 2.). To summarize, depending upon the appearance/race/location of the mating, they will define and declare "hybrid" or not. Here again, we find an inconsistent, arbitrary, definition of hybrid by the agenda driven out there.


and let us skip a ways down the page while they lay out a bunch more of these incorrect and silly...logical arguments??? But suffice to say, they conclude this "If (a+b=FU Science) then (C+D= WE Profit)" argument with;



> *To summarize, depending upon the desired result, some people will use whatever terms work best for them to label something hybrid, irrespective of the lack of consistency, logic, common sense, or what their own experts say.*


I DID NOT bold that for emphasis...it was already that way on their page... uhhh... seriously, why make something easy to understand and explain with the current defined scientific terms when instead if you describe it with a convoluted fallacy that helps hide the logical errors in the argument...tsk tsk tsk...sigh


----------



## tardis101

Dendro Dave said:


> Ok to be fair I've just skimmed a lot of the posts related to this point: So let me just make sure I'm clear on his point...
> 
> Tardis your issue is that you feel we haven't been clear enough in highlighting and distinguishing between personal opinion, what might be possible, and what is an fact (supported with a paper or other good evidence), ...Correct???
> Please?
> 
> And...
> No hard feelings
> 
> P.S.
> If there was a problem with the study that could be a valid point worth discussing, but Ed and others are better qualified to evaluate how much impact that may have on the possibility of it occurring in dart frogs.


In a nutshell. I would say yes. That's a large part of it (probably most of it). A lot of folks take people like Ed's word as truth because he's considered an expert. But at the risk of sounding an egotist, so am I. 15 years as a professional endangered species biologist. I understand small populations, population genetics, and the risks of dealing with those rare species. No scientist in the endangered species field that I know, would accept Ed's broad generalizations. Not that you have any reason to believe me, that's up to each individual reading this. But I've discussed this exact topic with several endangered species biologists, including two geneticists, to see if I'm misunderstanding, misrepresenting, or just plain being stupid. Because I don't want to misrepresent something. Or say something is true when it might not be. None of them have agreed with the outbreeding depression issue in dart frogs. 



Ed said:


> Dave,
> the problem is that he is using the argument in a way that is not considered acceptable by science. If something has been identified in a wide variety of cases it can then be generalized as "fact" and it isn't required for proof to occur before using the generalization.
> 
> *So each time he tries to argue the lack of papers/proof makes it an opinion he isn't being honest in his argument as he is clearly misrepresenting the data as well as the application. *
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I'm not the one being dishonest here, but you go ahead and keep telling people I'm the one not being honest. *Science does NOT generalize* the way you talking at all. You are so far afield from the scientific method it's almost laughable if it wasn't so terrifying.  Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, you included. And if folks are tired of me posting my thoughts, then I guess we should all just stop talking about it.


----------



## tardis101

Boondoggle said:


> You don't believe that the studies done on inbreeding in other frogs necessarily applies to dart frogs, and when pressed as to why, it's because that is your opinion and in the absence of dart specific studies your opinion is as good as anyone's? Do I have that right?


I personally DO think inbreeding is likely an issue in dart frogs (but there isn't any literature published on it in darts that I'm aware of). But that hasn't been the focus of my posts. If someone really cares what I think about inbreeding, we can move that to a separate thread or even a PM if folks want. But inbreeding doesn't appear to be of concern to anyone here. And it's certainly not been the argument presented for why mixed morph frogs or bad. So I haven't focused on it.


----------



## Dendro Dave

tardis101 said:


> In a nutshell. I would say yes. That's a large part of it (probably most of it). A lot of folks take people like Ed's word as truth because he's considered an expert. But at the risk of sounding an egotist, so am I. 15 years as a professional endangered species biologist. I understand small populations, population genetics, and the risks of dealing with those rare species. No scientist in the endangered species field that I know, would accept Ed's broad generalizations. Not that you have any reason to believe me, that's up to each individual reading this. But I've discussed this exact topic with several endangered species biologists, including two geneticists, to see if I'm misunderstanding, misrepresenting, or just plain being stupid. Because I don't want to misrepresent something. Or say something is true when it might not be. None of them have agreed with the outbreeding depression issue in dart frogs.


Ok good, wanted to make sure we were on the same page as far as the actual point you were trying to make ...

Ok I do agree that sometimes we aren't clear and we just present evidence like in the form of a paper and kinda say "here check this out because it supports my argument" and we may add our opinion that we think this is what is happening, and maybe sometimes we aren't clear that it is an opinion, or possibility....

But...
From the perspective of someone reading this thread I personally never felt like Ed said... "This is *for sure* what is going to happen in darts"; If he did i missed it. I think like me Ed mostly just presents you with some info, some possibilities and probabilities and then maybe goes on to talk about them, maybe even in a way that suggests he (or I) believe this is in fact what is happening, or will happening and then leaves everyone with the info and then to their own devices as far as researching the issue more and determining how it all applies to what ever we were talking about.

Anyways you've highlighted the perceived prob, and while I can't speak for Ed or the others: I at least will cop to sometimes being to subtle, or unclear that something is a possibility or probability rather then what will absolutely occur, or that it absolutely occurring is what I believe rather then being an absolute. I think that may be where we have are difficulty because it is often very hard to make that distinction clear to others.

So...
I think the point has been made, and everyone has made their arguments and they are there for everyone to read and make their own determination if one or some of us have crossed a line on occasion, and where that line was to begin with. That's the nice thing about a forum... everyone's arguments/points are there for people to compare/contrast and review repeatedly if need be to get a good understanding of this issue.

I think though this has kinda derailed the thread a bit. Not saying it wasn't constructive for awhile at least. I'm all for someone keeping me honest and pointing out any perceived mistakes I made so I can address them, or explain how they aren't actually mistakes 

So ya, I think we've gone about as far down this road as we need to. I'll try to be on guard against being to subtle when I present a fact or opinion and not represent that opinion as a fact or absolute; though I will still present the possibility or probability existing as a fact if there is common sense or very strong evidence to support. I'll just try to be more clear about when and how I'm doing that.

I still feel like your splitting to fine of a hair regarding Ed's position. I get your point but maybe because me and Ed seem to kinda have the same methodology and I think "get each other" more then some others might "get" either one of us... 

I never really took his statements as more then being probable in their application to darts, but not necessarily a given. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's where I am at with all of this, and I think we've fleshed this out enough that anyone reading all this can figure out where they are at with all this 

P.S.
I don't question your expertise, nor Ed's... I think this is more a misunderstanding of our respective perspectives, rather then truly being at odds about what is going on or likely to go on; but I don't know.... You guys are free to continue if you want, and hell I'll probably chime in again too


----------



## Dendro Dave

BTW...

I think everyone knows I have a great deal of respect for Ed and what he does here, and also guys like Doug and Rogue *and so many others* that often help me fill in the gaps, expand on my points, or make points I can expand on and together even if we don't always agree; I think *ALL OF US *combine to to form an entity; that if we don't actually solve something for the community, we leave enough for the individual to solve it for themselves at least 

But...
I wanna give a *special shout out to Boondoggle*. I don't know if we always agree, but we seem to usually be on the same page, but I love the way he tackles things... Maybe it's vanity because like with Ed, I feel he's kinda a kindred spirit and I really like how he handles himself on here. I like knowing him, Ed and a lot of you other guys are here, and are gonna be here for people. I think we compliment each other and even that what we do and say here may effect people's lives in a positive way beyond just learning some science, frog husbandry or how to build something like a quasi holographic fairy cave... at least I hope so 

Now don't anyone go and get jealous... *I love you all*, and there is plenty of me to go around, LOL 

Ok enough with the mushy stuff....
Back to arguing with each other and eviscerating the scourge upon our hobby that is USAfrog.  

P.S.
Notice my sig Tardis ...It's been there through most of this USAfrog fiasco


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## KingKush

I just wanted to understand everyone's point of view but i dont understand why this is bad? I just want to cite bearded dragons as an example is all?


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## tardis101

KingKush said:


> I just wanted to understand everyone's point of view but i dont understand why this is bad? I just want to cite bearded dragons as an example is all?


Since Dendro Dave summarized my concern appropriately and I think we're at least on the same page with respect to what each "sides" concerns are, let me try to summarize the point that I'm disagreeing with. I may get this wrong, but maybe Dendro Dave can clarify if I do.

With respect to small populations sizes (which is what we have with most CB dart frogs, because many were imported in relatively small numbers) there is a concern that mixing (either different locals/morphs of frogs or mixing different species of dart frogs) to create hybrids. Hybrids can mean a wide variety of crosses, but I think in this example we are talking about two types of hybrids. (1) cross one species of dart frog like a leuc with a tinc (so two animals in the same genius)(interspecific hybrid); and (2) crossing different populations of the same species (one color morph of tinc with another color morph). With the latter being the main debate (I think).

In population genetics among example #2, populations might become isolated (generally a physical barrier occurs between them in the wild) and so they no longer interbreed. Over time (10s of thousands of years typically) those populations build up differences in allele frequency of specific genes, as well as various gene mutations (over more and more time this is what eventually leads to enough accumulated changes that they become separate species). The concern with this is that mixing populations may result in declining health of the offspring (which folks further feel is unethical), loss of the original populations, and/or increased illegal over collection of the original wild populations.

I think I captured the other side's point.


----------



## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> I personally DO think inbreeding is likely an issue in dart frogs (but there isn't any literature published on it in darts that I'm aware of). But that hasn't been the focus of my posts. If someone really cares what I think about inbreeding, we can move that to a separate thread or even a PM if folks want. But inbreeding doesn't appear to be of concern to anyone here. And it's certainly not been the argument presented for why mixed morph frogs or bad. So I haven't focused on it.


I'm sorry, I said "inbreeding" when what I really meant was outbreeding depression. I was multitasking and apparently proofreading was not one of those tasks. Apologies.


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## KingKush

Thanks for clarifying that for me. It was very informative 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> In population genetics among example #2, populations might become isolated (generally a physical barrier occurs between them in the wild) and so they no longer interbreed. Over time (10s of thousands of years typically) those populations build up differences in allele frequency of specific genes, as well as various gene mutations (over more and more time this is what eventually leads to enough accumulated changes that they become separate species). The concern with this is that mixing populations may result in declining health of the offspring (which folks further feel is unethical), loss of the original populations, and/or increased illegal over collection of the original wild populations.


For a number of D. tinctorius populations the last time they had contact was at least 10,000 years ago according to the following ...

Noonan, Brice P., and Philippe Gaucher. "Refugial isolation and secondary contact in the dyeing poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius." Molecular Ecology 15.14 (2006): 4425-4435.

Noonan, Brice P., and Kenneth P. Wray. "Neotropical diversification: the effects of a complex history on diversity within the poison frog genus Dendrobates." Journal of Biogeography 33.6 (2006): 1007-1020. 

Some estimates could go back to the miocene (see above). 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> I personally DO think inbreeding is likely an issue in dart frogs (but there isn't any literature published on it in darts that I'm aware of). But that hasn't been the focus of my posts. If someone really cares what I think about inbreeding, we can move that to a separate thread or even a PM if folks want. But inbreeding doesn't appear to be of concern to anyone here. And it's certainly not been the argument presented for why mixed morph frogs or bad. So I haven't focused on it.


I know for a fact that I've brought up inbreeding more than once in this thread only and a lot more often in the rest of the forum as a possible problem and referenced it to issues with captive management. 

There is a tendency to concentrate on the outbreeding as this is where a risk to the frogs in the hobby can occur. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> In a nutshell. I would say yes. That's a large part of it (probably most of it). A lot of folks take people like Ed's word as truth because he's considered an expert. But at the risk of sounding an egotist, so am I. 15 years as a professional endangered species biologist.


This is a red herring. Its an appeal to authority with the added bonus of lacking any demonstration of authority. I noted to you before that your not the only person with hands on work in conservation and populations management. You've chosen to ignore that and throw up your credentials whenever the pressure on your "position gets hot". Something the rest of us try to avoid. Typically this is an attempt by the perpetrator to draw attention away from weak points in their claims. 



tardis101 said:


> No scientist in the endangered species field that I know, would accept Ed's broad generalizations.


Really, I'm guessing your throwing this out here as a red herring as well since we are not talking about wild populations but captive ones.(do you want the post where you made that distinction?) 
Did you skip the entire body of literature like the following example or how about the application of the Hardy-Weiberg models to small captive population? 
Edmands, Suzanne. "Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management." Molecular Ecology 16.3 (2007): 463-475.

So lets take a short look at the generalizations of outbreeding depression in the literature on wild populations. The best examples of my supposed laughable position are going to be reflected in the bibliography of papers and reference books. If it wasn't being generalized to a population then it has no need to be in the referenced to a different species does it? So in the first article I checked I found *21 articles* that are being generalized for its application. The paper is on salmon (see Houde, Aimee LS, et al. "Relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding depression in the wild in endangered salmon." Evolutionary applications 4.5 (2011): 634-647.) but in the paper they generalized from animal*s such as Florida panthers, Spekes gazelles, wolves, fruit flies, and even plants. Even more interestingly they included a number of papers that are nothing but generalizations built on the data from other taxa about risks etc from outbreeding and such. *
Here is a short list from the article I cited above... 


> *Hedrick, P. W., and R. Fredrickson. 2010. Genetic rescue guidelines with examples from Mexican wolves and Florida panthers.Conservation Genetics 11:615–626.
> Kawecki, T. J., and D. Ebert. 2004. Conceptual issues in local adaptation. Ecology Letters 7:1225–1241.
> Keller, L. F., and D. M. Waller. 2002. Inbreeding effects in wild populations. Trends in Ecology and Evolution 17:230–241.
> Templeton, A. R., and B. Read. 1984. Factors eliminating inbreeding depression in a captive herd of Speke’s gazelle. Zoo Biology3:177–199.*


According to you the inclusion of those references is an indication of bad science? But if it is a indication of bad science then why are virtually all studies loaded with not only references to other taxa but are directly applying generalizations that are built on other taxa? 
So once again we see complete dishonesty in of the presentation of the science. Generalized application of those ideas to other populations appears to be alive and well. 

If anyone is interested in just how widespread those generalizations are in both captive and wild populations, google scholar is a wonderful source and many articles will give you access to their citations which often contain direct links to the cited references (well more modern papers anyway). The even cooler thing is the further back you go the greater number of generalized comparisons to other taxa are included, the more modern articles tend to have that covered via the totally generalized articles. . 



tardis101 said:


> Because I don't want to misrepresent something. Or say something is true when it might not be. None of them have agreed with the outbreeding depression issue in dart frogs.


Again misleading. See above and you've already ruled this out as an unacceptable argument as your comparing hearsay that cannot be confirmed with actual published literature that shows rampant generalizations. 



tardis101 said:


> *Science does NOT generalize* the way you talking at all. You are so far afield from the scientific method it's almost laughable if it wasn't so terrifying.


Again more red herring by engaging in another ad hominem attack. See above about the generalizations I noted in one single article. I'm quite sure I could make multiple pages about this ... 

And for the record if anyone is curious about his motives we can look back to one of the earlier posts (check out post #2113). 

If you want to keep poking me with a stick I will absolutely not go away and I will continue to put facts out there to demonstrate that your not being honest in many respects. Its all up to you. 


some comments 

Ed


----------



## tardis101

Ed said:


> This is a red herring. Its an appeal to authority with the added bonus of lacking any demonstration of authority. I noted to you before that your not the only person with hands on work in conservation and populations management. You've chosen to ignore that and throw up your credentials whenever the pressure on your "position gets hot". Something the rest of us try to avoid. Typically this is an attempt by the perpetrator to draw attention away from weak points in their claims. Ed


No not at all. It was merely pointing out that scientists who currently work in the field of endangered species (in my case almost exclusively with endangered species) disagree with your points. 



Ed said:


> Really, I'm guessing your throwing this out here as a red herring as well since we are not talking about wild populations but captive ones.(do you want the post where you made that distinction?) Ed


Again no. I did not say that the other scientists that I've spoke to about this topic was with respect to the wild populations. In fact the ones I've had this conversation with I was centering on your argument about the risks to CB populations. This entire thread is about a CB frog breeder mixing CB populations. 



Ed said:


> Did you skip the entire body of literature like the following example or how about the application of the Hardy-Weiberg models to small captive population?
> Edmands, Suzanne. "Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management." Molecular Ecology 16.3 (2007): 463-475.
> 
> So lets take a short look at the generalizations of outbreeding depression in the literature on wild populations. The best examples of my supposed laughable position are going to be reflected in the bibliography of papers and reference books. If it wasn't being generalized to a population then it has no need to be in the referenced to a different species does it? So in the first article I checked I found *21 articles* that are being generalized for its application. The paper is on salmon (see Houde, Aimee LS, et al. "Relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding depression in the wild in endangered salmon." Evolutionary applications 4.5 (2011): 634-647.) but in the paper they generalized from animal*s such as Florida panthers, Spekes gazelles, wolves, fruit flies, and even plants. Even more interestingly they included a number of papers that are nothing but generalizations built on the data from other taxa about risks etc from outbreeding and such. *
> Here is a short list from the article I cited above...
> 
> According to you the inclusion of those references is an indication of bad science? But if it is a indication of bad science then why are virtually all studies loaded with not only references to other taxa but are directly applying generalizations that are built on other taxa?
> So once again we see complete dishonesty in of the presentation of the science. Generalized application of those ideas to other populations appears to be alive and well.
> 
> Ed


Again no. As I've said REPEATEDLY it isn't that outbreeding depression doesn't occur in any organism. It does. But your repeated argument is that because it occurs in other species then it's equally applicable to dart frogs. That may or MAY NOT be true. You don't know. I don't know. But I'm not going to dance around that unfortant truth. There isn't' sufficient literature to support your conclusion. You don't want to believe that and you don't know others to realize it either. But if you want to find out, you'll need to test it. However, you clearly want people to believe there is a concern with outbreeding depression in CB dart frogs just because you've cited some papers that are about outbreeding depression.



Ed said:


> And for the record if anyone is curious about his motives we can look back to one of the earlier posts (check out post #2113). Ed


Post 2113 isn't mine. It's edwardsatc with a series of quotes from previous ones I've made. So what Ed is trying to confuse people with is that just because I said I don't think mixing morphs is detrimental that automatically means I'm "for" hybirds. He's forgetting that several times across several threads at this point that I've said I don't want a hybrid nor do I want to create them. I like the color morphs that are out there now. So let me be clear since someone will undoubtedly try to mischaracterize my point again, I don't think mixing different color morphs of the same species is a concern. Nor do I think it's likely to result in sick or ill offspring. But that is just an opinion. Take it or don't. That's up to the reader.



Ed said:


> If you want to keep poking me with a stick I will absolutely not go away and I will continue to put facts out there to demonstrate that your not being honest in many respects. Its all up to you.
> 
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I'm not going away either. And I'm not going to let you continue to misrepresent legitimize research and papers and present them in a way that confuses or misleads people.

Mike


----------



## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> No not at all. It was merely pointing out that scientists who currently work in the field of endangered species (in my case almost exclusively with endangered species) disagree with your points.
> 
> 
> 
> Again no. I did not say that the other scientists that I've spoke to about this topic was with respect to the wild populations. In fact the ones I've had this conversation with I was centering on your argument about the risks to CB populations. This entire thread is about a CB frog breeder mixing CB populations.
> 
> 
> 
> Again no. As I've said REPEATEDLY it isn't that outbreeding depression doesn't occur in any organism. It does. But your repeated argument is that because it occurs in other species then it's equally applicable to dart frogs. That may or MAY NOT be true. You don't know. I don't know. But I'm not going to dance around that unfortant truth. There isn't' sufficient literature to support your conclusion. You don't want to believe that and you don't know others to realize it either. But if you want to find out, you'll need to test it. However, you clearly want people to believe there is a concern with outbreeding depression in CB dart frogs just because you've cited some papers that are about outbreeding depression.
> 
> 
> 
> Post 2113 isn't mine. It's edwardsatc with a series of quotes from previous ones I've made. So what Ed is trying to confuse people with is that just because I said I don't think mixing morphs is detrimental that automatically means I'm "for" hybirds. He's forgetting that several times across several threads at this point that I've said I don't want a hybrid nor do I want to create them. I like the color morphs that are out there now. So let me be clear since someone will undoubtedly try to mischaracterize my point again, I don't think mixing different color morphs of the same species is a concern. Nor do I think it's likely to result in sick or ill offspring. But that is just an opinion. Take it or don't. That's up to the reader.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going away either. And I'm not going to let you continue to misrepresent legitimize research and papers and present them in a way that confuses or misleads people.
> 
> Mike


There is sufficient evidence that it may exist and be a real concern. You're basing your opinion that it isn't on literally nothing - there's no study whatsoever supporting your position that it does not occur in dart frogs. When dealing with a limited resource, the ethical position is to assume it is a problem until proven otherwise, not to put one's head in the sand and say it isn't a problem until someone else proves that it is.

He's not mischaracterizing anything. You failed to address Ed's points about how the research was aggregated in those citations. You also clearly don't know how medical research works if you think that cross-species generalizations aren't considered as part of the process in scientific research. You are, flatly put, wrong with that implication. 

If you want to be taken seriously about referencing researchers, provide some names, and reference the papers they've written. Just because I say I know an expert doesn't mean that I actually do, or that if I do they're actually competent, or if they are that their field is actually applicable to the topic at hand. Saying "I know a guy so I'm right" really amounts to beans.


----------



## tardis101

Calivet said:


> There is sufficient evidence that it may exist and be a real concern. You're basing your opinion that it isn't on literally nothing - there's no study whatsoever supporting your position that it does not occur in dart frogs. When dealing with a limited resource, the ethical position is to assume it is a problem until proven otherwise, not to put one's head in the sand and say it isn't a problem until someone else proves that it is.
> 
> He's not mischaracterizing anything. You failed to address Ed's points about how the research was aggregated in those citations. You also clearly don't know how medical research works if you think that cross-species generalizations aren't considered as part of the process in scientific research. You are, flatly put, wrong with that implication.
> 
> If you want to be taken seriously about referencing researchers, provide some names, and reference the papers they've written. Just because I say I know an expert doesn't mean that I actually do, or that if I do they're actually competent, or if they are that their field is actually applicable to the topic at hand. Saying "I know a guy so I'm right" really amounts to beans.


I'm not saying it's not an issue. Please for the love of God get that right. What I'm saying is that the data presented to support the conclusion IT IS a problem is insufficient and I've stated why repeatedly. You can believe it or not. I don't care. But when someone misrepresents the information I'm going to call it out.

And for the record, we aren't talking about human medical research here. That's a whole different realm because it on people, where the type of research you can do is limited (obviously you can't do (legally) the kinds of experiments on humans that you can on organisms). We're talking about classic research on non-human organisms.


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## Dane

While not a 'scientific' text, the _Dendrobatidae_ trilogy: Christmann, Siegfried P. 2004, Vol. II p. 241, gives an accounting of a hybridization of _R. ventrimaculata_ locales that resulted in significantly deleterious traits among offspring/larvae. Hopefully I cited it correctly, because it seems relevant.


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## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> What I'm saying is that the data presented to support the conclusion IT IS a problem is insufficient and I've stated why repeatedly. You can believe it or not. I don't care. But when someone misrepresents the information I'm going to call it out.


So the paper references salmon specifically, but then makes a generalized references to the phenomenon in Florida panthers, Spekes gazelles, wolves, fruit flies, and even plants, but to apply that same knowledge to frogs, that's a misrepresentation and you're going to call it out? Do you understand the simple genetic mechanism that's shared here, and what all these disparate organisms share to allow that generalization? I suspect that if a study were to definitively prove that dart frogs could indeed be impacted by outbreeding depression your argument would that it only proved true with those specific frogs and any other conclusion was a misrepresentation the data. 

Also, are you aware of how drastically different your criteria is for each side of this argument? You have a habit of calling out other people on debate tactics that you then use in the same post, apparently without even being aware of it.

Also, for the record, while incorrect generalization can be a trap in scientific research, generalization itself is a huge part of legitimate science. Science devoid of generalization would be useless. Every test subject is a generalization of a population, and not necessarily just a population of that particular species. That's especially true if you're talking about something universally shared like the mechanism of DNA.


----------



## allegedhuman

Sheesh. Dealing with reviewers can sometimes be a major pain already the way it is when trying to publish research. Despite the normal, ehh…frustrations…with the review process, worrying about some reviewer having a similar attitude in which they won’t accept studies from different species if cited as support is simply unheard of. 

Can anyone even find ONE paper where every single reference is from the exact same species with the exact same conditions as what the researchers are studying? I really doubt it. No researcher writing or reviewing a paper would ever expect that narrow of a view for what is acceptable either. When you have the whole body of scientific research, with the expertise, skills, funds and resources from thousands of other researchers why would you ever limit yourself to such a small pool of knowledge as only pertaining to the exact same thing as what you are already doing? 

It is hard enough to get funding and resources to do new studies, much less to repeat the same study in every single species someone might be interested in. If you are waiting for the perfect study in the same species you care about…well you will probably be waiting a long time (Forever). That doesn’t mean you can’t form an educated stance on the subject based on current lines of evidence from other systems. It just seems a bit futile to take the approach that if we have to wait until we have “The Final Proof” before taking action or making any type of position then I’m afraid that most of the time it will already be too late to respond to solve the issue by the time the final nail is in the coffin.

Besides. Science is CONSTANTLY moving. I don’t think there is ever a point where a researcher says “That is it. We understand everything about ___Blank___. “ It is more of a matter of making the best theories, hypothesis, decisions, whatever based on the current data at the time. But choosing to not even consider possible options because we don’t have a conclusive “final proof” is just procrastinating and going to end up screwing things up in the end if people wait for the final verdict before trying to take preemptive steps to avoid causing potential issues like excessive inbreeding or outbreeding depression. Both of which, I think we all agree, are concepts that are not good things for any population…right? So why not avoid getting into that territory in the first place?



tardis101 said:


> And for the record, we aren't talking about human medical research here. That's a whole different realm because it on people, where the type of research you can do is limited (obviously you can't do (legally) the kinds of experiments on humans that you can on organisms). We're talking about classic research on non-human organisms.


The basic concept of using models and citing studies from other species as alternative lines of support still operates the same for basic fundamental research and biomedical research in humans. In fact, in human medical research once you get to applied research it is less likely to rely solely on models because after preclinical trials, which tests the basic concept in models/in vitro, when they begin phase trials they need to use human subjects to test safety and efficacy in humans. 

I never had to change my criteria for what is acceptable to cite in papers when doing classical research in a “normal” university setting vs. research at a med school. The concept of using support from multiple sources and different species is expected in both types of research settings and accepted across the field of biology as a whole.


----------



## tardis101

Boondoggle said:


> So the paper references salmon specifically, but then makes a generalized references to the phenomenon in Florida panthers, Spekes gazelles, wolves, fruit flies, and even plants, but to apply that same knowledge to frogs, that's a misrepresentation and you're going to call it out? Do you understand the simple genetic mechanism that's shared here, and what all these disparate organisms share to allow that generalization? I suspect that if a study were to definitively prove that dart frogs could indeed be impacted by outbreeding depression your argument would that it only proved true with those specific frogs and any other conclusion was a misrepresentation the data.


No I didn't say you can't apply any research to dart frogs. But the papers cited I've read and the ones that have been posted here are under specific circumstances that as far as I'm aware aren't in play with dart frogs (wild or CB as far as I can tell). Does that means I'm right? AGAIN NO. I might not be right. But I've acknowledge that several times.

Also you suspect wrong. 



Boondoggle said:


> Also, are you aware of how drastically different your criteria is for each side of this argument? You have a habit of calling out other people on debate tactics that you then use in the same post, apparently without even being aware of it.


Are you kidding? You are still throwing out there that I'm making an argument for "the other side." Now it just looks like your ignoring what I've said. AGAIN I'M NOT MAKING A CASE THAT MIXED MORPH OR ANY OTHER HYBRID IS GOOD. I don't think it's detrimental and I don't care if someone else does it. But as i've already said (and you've ignored) those are both opinions and you can agree or not.


----------



## tardis101

allegedhuman said:


> Sheesh. Dealing with reviewers can sometimes be a major pain already the way it is when trying to publish research. Despite the normal, ehh…frustrations…with the review process, worrying about some reviewer having a similar attitude in which they won’t accept studies from different species if cited as support is simply unheard of.
> 
> Can anyone even find ONE paper where every single reference is from the exact same species with the exact same conditions as what the researchers are studying? I really doubt it. No researcher writing or reviewing a paper would ever expect that narrow of a view for what is acceptable either. When you have the whole body of scientific research, with the expertise, skills, funds and resources from thousands of other researchers why would you ever limit yourself to such a small pool of knowledge as only pertaining to the exact same thing as what you are already doing?


I'm not saying that. I'm not saying citations in any field have to only be related to the subject matter. And if that's what you're walking away with from my comments, then I apologize for giving you that impression. 



allegedhuman said:


> It is hard enough to get funding and resources to do new studies, much less to repeat the same study in every single species someone might be interested in. If you are waiting for the perfect study in the same species you care about…well you will probably be waiting a long time (Forever). That doesn’t mean you can’t form an educated stance on the subject based on current lines of evidence from other systems. It just seems a bit futile to take the approach that if we have to wait until we have “The Final Proof” before taking action or making any type of position then I’m afraid that most of the time it will already be too late to respond to solve the issue by the time the final nail is in the coffin.


People study the same type of topics in different species all the time. Life history studies in particular could discuss the potential of inbreeding or outbreeding depression in multiple organisms. The very point being made about there already being studies on outbreeding depression in different taxa is evidence of that. To then go on and suggest no studies need done in dart frogs on it because it's been studied in some other animal seems like an artificially narrow view. 



allegedhuman said:


> Besides. Science is CONSTANTLY moving. I don’t think there is ever a point where a researcher says “That is it. We understand everything about ___Blank___. “ It is more of a matter of making the best theories, hypothesis, decisions, whatever based on the current data at the time. But choosing to not even consider possible options because we don’t have a conclusive “final proof” is just procrastinating and going to end up screwing things up in the end if people wait for the final verdict before trying to take preemptive steps to avoid causing potential issues like excessive inbreeding or outbreeding depression. Both of which, I think we all agree, are concepts that are not good things for any population…right? So why not avoid getting into that territory in the first place?


I have never said we know everything about dart frogs. Far from it I would think we have a lot to learn still. There aren't even that many life history studies on the various frogs (let along on the different color morphs). I'm also not saying I'm not considering the possibility of outbreeding in dart frogs. I have on several occasions said since people have formed a hypothesis about it, they should test it. That's the next step. The next step isn't just to conclusively decided that outbreeding is a problem because it's been observed in other animals. 




allegedhuman said:


> The basic concept of using models and citing studies from other species as alternative lines of support still operates the same for basic fundamental research and biomedical research in humans. In fact, in human medical research once you get to applied research it is less likely to rely solely on models because after preclinical trials, which tests the basic concept in models/in vitro, when they begin phase trials they need to use human subjects to test safety and efficacy in humans.
> 
> I never had to change my criteria for what is acceptable to cite in papers when doing classical research in a “normal” university setting vs. research at a med school. The concept of using support from multiple sources and different species is expected in both types of research settings and accepted across the field of biology as a whole.


That wasn't my point. My point was in order to research outbreeding in humans you'd likely have to modeling because you might not be able to set up a direct experiment on humans. We could however, easily test it in dart frogs and you wouldn't need a model. It could be directly tested.


----------



## Dendro Dave

tardis101 said:


> Since Dendro Dave summarized my concern appropriately and I think we're at least on the same page with respect to what each "sides" concerns are, let me try to summarize the point that I'm disagreeing with. I may get this wrong, but maybe Dendro Dave can clarify if I do.
> 
> With respect to small populations sizes (which is what we have with most CB dart frogs, because many were imported in relatively small numbers) there is a concern that mixing (either different locals/morphs of frogs or mixing different species of dart frogs) to create hybrids. Hybrids can mean a wide variety of crosses, but I think in this example we are talking about two types of hybrids. (1) cross one species of dart frog like a leuc with a tinc (so two animals in the same genius)(interspecific hybrid); and (2) crossing different populations of the same species (one color morph of tinc with another color morph). With the latter being the main debate (I think).
> 
> In population genetics among example #2, populations might become isolated (generally a physical barrier occurs between them in the wild) and so they no longer interbreed. Over time (10s of thousands of years typically) those populations build up differences in allele frequency of specific genes, as well as various gene mutations (over more and more time this is what eventually leads to enough accumulated changes that they become separate species). The concern with this is that mixing populations may result in declining health of the offspring (which folks further feel is unethical), loss of the original populations, and/or increased illegal over collection of the original wild populations.
> 
> I think I captured the other side's point.


Crap, I stayed away to long and now I have a metric crap ton of sciencey stuff to read: Slow down guys!!!  

Ya that and resulting confusion and possible damage that could occur to our limited captive stock.

Unlike some here I in theory at least don't have a problem with hybrids if healthy, but in reality they introduce more uncertainty and thus more risk into the hobby IMHO that we don't get what we actually paid for.

So without rehashing all the points made in defense of our position, it is for me at least in large part a problem in practicality. I don't believe we can have a designer frog hobby and the rest of the hobby coexist without issues arising that effect the mainstream hobby; such as tainting our pure stock, and thus further limiting the available animals to work with, and etc...etc...

It is also IMHO a matter of respect. If you are going to alter an animal in this hobby and then disseminate those animals into the hobby, you will open the door to a great many things possibly happening, and most I think are not good things. I also question the ethics of imposing that risk on a community/hobby without some discussion and general consensus of consent. 

The other issues lie in the source, and their multitude of shenanigans that we've documented within this thread and others. Even if a permanent designer frog niche within the hobby is inevitable: these are simply the wrong people to be the driving force behind it IMHO.... for all the many many reason documented here and else where.

So for me at least if by some miracle they could coexist and not interfere to the point of doing some form of damage to the other, then I'd say "hey have at it", but I simply don't think that is possible based on the points I and others have made, and just see so much more potential risk vs any reward.

The only real benefit that comes to mind and applies to the hobby as a whole is the possibility of opening up some genetic bottlenecks and introducing some more genetic diversity into some frogs that could benefit from that to be more viable captive populations in the long run, but that is a big deal and that needs to be discussed with the community before it happens and IMHO a general consensus of consent is the only ethical/respectful way to head down that road, and USAfrog faild at that, no consensus of consent was given, and they've pulled some shady stuff that just compounds the problem.

So a lot of my personal stance is based in pragmatism. I just don't see how we can have a designer hobby, even if we had a large number of people adopt a frog tracking plan. There is still going be some of our limited captive gene pool removed to make the franken frogs and that diminishes what we have to work with and thus our hobby, and then from there there are a multitude of other potential risks that arise, and I see the other side as asking a great deal from us in accepting that risk, while doing next to nothing to protect our interests. They want us to open the door to that risk and then trust them that it won't mess some stuff up for a lot of people, and I've just seen very little evidence, or even good arguments to support that position as a fact, or even a reasonable possibility IMHO.

So ya, *tardis *that was a good chuck of it,  but still those points are just one facet of a larger argument against the practice, and the people forcing fast and radical change onto this community with no consensus of consent. 

P.S.
Tardis... if that name is a reference to what I think, then I only have this to say to you...

"*BAD WOLF*"


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> No not at all. It was merely pointing out that scientists who currently work in the field of endangered species (in my case almost exclusively with endangered species) disagree with your points.


You really don't get why this is a meaningless statement do you? I flagged this as a red herring as it has no weight. Your attempting to indicate that because they or you work with endangered species that they and you are unable to be dishonest, create, use or even recognize bad scientific principles knowingly or unknowingly 

You set a bar that anecdotal, and/or hearsay evidence isn't of use in this discussion but you consistently violate that bar when your caught out. 
Additionally you keep using this in place of having to address points, that is why it is a red herring. Your using it as something to hide behind ... 



tardis101 said:


> Again no. I did not say that the other scientists that I've spoke to about this topic was with respect to the wild populations. In fact the ones I've had this conversation with I was centering on your argument about the risks to CB populations. This entire thread is about a CB frog breeder mixing CB populations.


So I misinterpreted your statement because you keep waving around the field biologist expert fallacy. So with my misinterpretation included I'll relegate this to the dust bin as your side is still meaningless: see above. 




tardis101 said:


> Again no. As I've said REPEATEDLY it isn't that outbreeding depression doesn't occur in any organism. It does. But your repeated argument is that because it occurs in other species then it's equally applicable to dart frogs. That may or MAY NOT be true. You don't know. I don't know. But I'm not going to dance around that unfortant truth. There isn't' sufficient literature to support your conclusion. You don't want to believe that and you don't know others to realize it either. But if you want to find out, you'll need to test it. However, you clearly want people to believe there is a concern with outbreeding depression in CB dart frogs just because you've cited some papers that are about outbreeding depression.


Your dodging and deflecting again. Your entire argument on whether it may or may not be a risk is predicated on the fact that "science does not generalize". 
IF science does not generalize then why do those papers have generalizations on salmon that are from panthers, wolves, fruit flies, other fish species, and plants? And that is before we get into multiple articles that are generalizations in and of themselves built on models of other species .... 
*
So are those or are those not generalizations?* 





tardis101 said:


> Post 2113 isn't mine. It's edwardsatc with a series of quotes from previous ones I've made. So what Ed is trying to confuse people with is that just because I said I don't think mixing morphs is detrimental that automatically means I'm "for" hybirds.


Actually I haven't. I'm demonstrating that deceptive behavior has occurred in several instances. So you admit that you made those quotes? I'm just making sure. 
Now if we add in this quote from post #2005, we have the argument that at the very least hybrids are acceptable because USA frog is addressing claims of inferiority. The reason this is a point in this discussion is it demonstrates that changes in "opinion" occur when pressed or backed into a corner. This does imply motive to why you need to deny that science doesn't generalize and that articles on outbreeding cannot be used as an argument that outbreeding may be a risk to the captive populations. 



tardis101 said:


> I'm not going away either. And I'm not going to let you continue to misrepresent legitimize research and papers and present them in a way that confuses or misleads people.


So are those papers in the bibliography of the article I cited, are they being applied as a generalization or aren't they? According to you, the outbreeding papers that don't mention dart frogs cannot be applied to dart frogs because science doesn't generalize. So then why are they cited and used? Why are they using models built on other species on salmon? 

Its a simple question were those articles applied as generalizations since they weren't about salmon? 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> I'm not saying that. I'm not saying citations in any field have to only be related to the subject matter. And if that's what you're walking away with from my comments, then I apologize for giving you that impression.


So science does or doesn't generalize? 




tardis101 said:


> People study the same type of topics in different species all the time. Life history studies in particular could discuss the potential of inbreeding or outbreeding depression in multiple organisms. The very point being made about there already being studies on outbreeding depression in different taxa is evidence of that. To then go on and suggest no studies need done in dart frogs on it because it's been studied in some other animal seems like an artificially narrow view.


I'm going to flag this as totally BS. 

I'm going to ask for a citation that says managing a captive population to minimize the effects of inbreeding or outbreeding cannot be done or should not be before it is studied in that captive population. That is what you are implicitly stipulating with each and every one of these claims. This is where you are being dishonest with the science and deceptive as this is routinely done all of the time. Each time someone runs the Hardy-Weingberg models on a population to make management decisions it happens. To continue to deny this is a bunch of BS. 

Can you point to where I indicated that no studies ever need to be done? I'm pretty clear that is not and has never been my position. Contrast this with the repeated rejections of papers because they were not specifically on dendrobatids. . 




tardis101 said:


> That wasn't my point. My point was in order to research outbreeding in humans you'd likely have to modeling because you might not be able to set up a direct experiment on humans. We could however, easily test it in dart frogs and you wouldn't need a model. It could be directly tested.


So science does generalize? Ethics aside, the underlying reason it happens is because a generalization can be made from the animal models. If the generalizations cannot be applied then it doesn't matter ethically because then you would be unable to apply the results which is another ethical dilemma so we can set ethics aside and get to the direct point. 

Is or isn't this an application of generalization in science? Its not a small application either ....


----------



## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> No I didn't say you can't apply any research to dart frogs. But the papers cited I've read and the ones that have been posted here are under specific circumstances that as far as I'm aware aren't in play with dart frogs (wild or CB as far as I can tell).


Why would wild vs. CB have any effect on the combination of alleles? Were not talking about behavior here, were talking about math. 



tardis101 said:


> Does that means I'm right? AGAIN NO. I might not be right. But I've acknowledge that several times.


But that's an odd thing to say considering were only talking about this because you called me out when you thought I even referred to outbreeding depression, which I wasn't. You indicated how my reference to outbreeding depression, which didn't exist, was an incorrect statement, an opinion, a possibly correct opinion, and not based on data. I'm trying to wrap my head around how something can be an incorrect statement and a correct opinion.




tardis101 said:


> Also you suspect wrong.


Ok.



tardis101 said:


> Are you kidding? You are still throwing out there that I'm making an argument for "the other side." Now it just looks like your ignoring what I've said. AGAIN I'M NOT MAKING A CASE THAT MIXED MORPH OR ANY OTHER HYBRID IS GOOD. I don't think it's detrimental and I don't care if someone else does it. But as i've already said (and you've ignored) those are both opinions and you can agree or not.


I'm not throwing you anywhere. I've been trying to figure out what your argument, or non-argument, actually is. I've tried to encapsulate it a couple times hoping for clarification from you. I was hoping we could just focus on that specific point, because at least then we'd know what we disagree about (This would be were I would start throwing around capital letters about how I've been ignored by you). You're clearly passionate about your stance, but when pressed, you get really adamant about what your not saying, but not so much about what you're saying. I don't think anyone is ignoring you or what you've said. I'm just not sure people here know what you mean. 

I do suspect you have more energy than I to run in these circles, though.

*Ed, you do this better than I do.


----------



## tardis101

Dendro Dave said:


> Crap, I stayed away to long and now I have a metric crap ton of sciencey stuff to read: Slow down guys!!!
> 
> Ya that and resulting confusion and possible damage that could occur to our limited captive stock.
> 
> Unlike some here I in theory at least don't have a problem with hybrids if healthy, but in reality they introduce more uncertainty and thus more risk into the hobby IMHO that we don't get what we actually paid for.
> 
> So without rehashing all the points made in defense of our position, it is for me at least in large part a problem in practicality. I don't believe we can have a designer frog hobby and the rest of the hobby coexist without issues arising that effect the mainstream hobby; such as tainting our pure stock, and thus further limiting the available animals to work with, and etc...etc...
> 
> It is also IMHO a matter of respect. If you are going to alter an animal in this hobby and then disseminate those animals into the hobby, you will open the door to a great many things possibly happening, and most I think are not good things. I also question the ethics of imposing that risk on a community/hobby without some discussion and general consensus of consent.
> 
> The other issues lie in the source, and their multitude of shenanigans that we've documented within this thread and others. Even if a permanent designer frog niche within the hobby is inevitable: these are simply the wrong people to be the driving force behind it IMHO.... for all the many many reason documented here and else where.
> 
> So for me at least if by some miracle they could coexist and not interfere to the point of doing some form of damage to the other, then I'd say "hey have at it", but I simply don't think that is possible based on the points I and others have made, and just see so much more potential risk vs any reward.
> 
> The only real benefit that comes to mind and applies to the hobby as a whole is the possibility of opening up some genetic bottlenecks and introducing some more genetic diversity into some frogs that could benefit from that to be more viable captive populations in the long run, but that is a big deal and that needs to be discussed with the community before it happens and IMHO a general consensus of consent is the only ethical/respectful way to head down that road, and USAfrog faild at that, no consensus of consent was given, and they've pulled some shady stuff that just compounds the problem.
> 
> So a lot of my personal stance is based in pragmatism. I just don't see how we can have a designer hobby, even if we had a large number of people adopt a frog tracking plan. There is still going be some of our limited captive gene pool removed to make the franken frogs and that diminishes what we have to work with and thus our hobby, and then from there there are a multitude of other potential risks that arise, and I see the other side as asking a great deal from us in accepting that risk, while doing next to nothing to protect our interests. They want us to open the door to that risk and then trust them that it won't mess some stuff up for a lot of people, and I've just seen very little evidence, or even good arguments to support that position as a fact, or even a reasonable possibility IMHO.
> 
> So ya, *tardis *that was a good chuck of it,  but still those points are just one facet of a larger argument against the practice, and the people forcing fast and radical change onto this community with no consensus of consent.
> 
> P.S.
> Tardis... if that name is a reference to what I think, then I only have this to say to you...
> 
> "*BAD WOLF*"


I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Those additional points, are valid opinions and concerns. IMHO, those are the ones folks should focus on. That's what I've been getting at, when I say if you don't like them don't like them and just say that. Instead of pointing to literature to support the dislike. There is no need to IMHO. 

And yes, tardis, stands for the beloved time machine of The Doctor, from Doctor Who. I've been watching it since 1978.  Now I feel old.


----------



## tardis101

Boondoggle said:


> Why would wild vs. CB have any effect on the combination of alleles? Were not talking about behavior here, were talking about math.


Sorry, not that the effect is different per say, but the genetic differences in the subsequent generations of CB individuals are probably different than what the WC ones are at this point. All I mean is there has likely been enough selective breeding that if you tested CB populations for in/outbreeding depression you could end up with very different results than if you tested wild populations. 



Boondoggle said:


> I'm not throwing you anywhere.  I've been trying to figure out what your argument, or non-argument, actually is. I've tried to encapsulate it a couple times hoping for clarification from you. I was hoping we could just focus on that specific point, because at least then we'd know what we disagree about (This would be were I would start throwing around capital letters about how I've been ignored by you). You're clearly passionate about your stance, but when pressed, you get really adamant about what your not saying, but not so much about what you're saying. I don't think anyone is ignoring you or what you've said. I'm just not sure people here know what you mean.


I think that's true. I think folks are consistently misinterpreting what I've said. My main point in most of this if folks don't like hybrids, fine. I get that. I get from a personal opinion standpoint, I get it from a ethics standpoints, I get it from a concern about being able to tell what you buy (and be sure that's what you get) standpoint. Those are all valid concerns. Go with those arguments because they can't be refuted. But to go with one from a science basis and say it confirms the theory of outbreeding depression in dart frogs isn't supported. There is however, enough evidence to support testing that hypothesis to see if indeed it's accurate or not. But I suspect no one here will do it, no one wants the stigma of having produced a hybrid, plus I don't think people think they have the time. It would however, be a great thesis for a budding biologist, and I'm nearly certain it would merit publication.




Boondoggle said:


> I do suspect you have more energy than I to run in these circles, though.


Trust me I don't. At 5' 2" I have super short legs.


----------



## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> I'm not saying it's not an issue. Please for the love of God get that right. What I'm saying is that the data presented to support the conclusion IT IS a problem is insufficient and I've stated why repeatedly. You can believe it or not. I don't care. But when someone misrepresents the information I'm going to call it out.
> 
> And for the record, we aren't talking about human medical research here. That's a whole different realm because it on people, where the type of research you can do is limited (obviously you can't do (legally) the kinds of experiments on humans that you can on organisms). We're talking about classic research on non-human organisms.


I didn't say human medical research, I said medical research. Generalizations are made between different species all the time (including extrapolation from humans TO other species). Obligatory 

I'm not sure what you think that you're calling out. Not one person has said that outbreeding depression DOES occur in dart frogs, and you should stop using that as the lynchpin of your argument. They've said that there's enough evidence to indicate that it may, and that the ethical position is to assume that it does until proven otherwise, and so therefore an ethical individual would want the practice avoided until PROVEN SAFE, and not just say "it's up to the reader", because they realize that many readers won't have the knowledge base to understand the research, understand the data, understand a good study vs a bad study , or have read enough of the data to even know what the concerns are. YOU are being called out because you've showed a complete unwillingness to address why "do no harm" shouldn't be a part of ethical husbandry, whether husbandry has ethical concerns at all, for applying inconsistent standards of evidence for your position vs Ed's, and for claiming to be the gatekeeper of the scientific method when you do so. Also, for saying "I know some guys", which is the Internet equivalent of bringing your dad beating up the other kid"s dad into a kindergarten playground confrontation if you don't identify said "guys". 

Scientists (at least the ethical ones) do NOT go "well, George, we don't have enough data to prove this, so...EVERYONE CAN DO WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT! NO RAMIFICATIONS! PAAAAAAAAARTY!"


----------



## Boondoggle

tardis101 said:


> Sorry, not that the effect is different per say, but the genetic differences in the subsequent generations of CB individuals are probably different than what the WC ones are at this point. All I mean is there has likely been enough selective breeding that if you tested CB populations for in/outbreeding depression you could end up with very different results than if you tested wild populations.


Ok, that's succinct. I think I get your point. I'll give that some thought. 

Initially I'd say, though, you're right about there likely being some genetic differences between CB and Wild populations, but since were talking about the mechanism of DNA (which is the same if you're a salmon, a panther, a frog or a person), and not specific genetics themselves, I just don't see the argument holding water. A CB and Wild frog are much more similar, no matter how much they've diverged, than a salmon and a panther.


----------



## tardis101

Calivet said:


> I'm not sure what you think that you're calling out. Not one person has said that outbreeding depression DOES occur in dart frogs, and you should stop using that as the lynchpin of your argument. They've said that there's enough evidence to indicate that it may, and that the ethical position is to assume that it does until proven otherwise, and so therefore an ethical individual would want the practice avoided until PROVEN SAFE, and not just say "it's up to the reader", because they realize that many readers won't have the knowledge base to understand the research, understand the data, understand a good study vs a bad study , or have read enough of the data to even know what the concerns are.


You're deciding what is ethical or not in this case. You're right I'm not willing to jump into the "is this ethical or not" game. The same argument about what's ethical or not can be directed at trying to put someone out of business, which is the majority of what this thread is at this point. The entire practice of keeping wild animals and in this case rare species can be viewed as being unethical. Ethics change depending on the point of view. Its much more subjective, which is why I'm not weighing in on that.



Calivet said:


> YOU are being called out because you've showed a complete unwillingness to address why "do no harm" shouldn't be a part of ethical husbandry, whether husbandry has ethical concerns at all, for applying inconsistent standards of evidence for your position vs Ed's, and for claiming to be the gatekeeper of the scientific method when you do so.


Where am I applying an inconsistent standard? I'm not making a case for hybrids (mixed morph or otherwise). I've said that so many times not it's a wonder people don't have it ingrained in their minds at this point. I have an opinion about inbreeding depression, is that what you mean? Because I'm not going in depth as to why I think that's a concern? I said earlier, if folks want to talk more about inbreeding depression we can. I think we should move it to another thread though.



Calivet said:


> Scientists (at least the ethical ones) do NOT go "well, George, we don't have enough data to prove this, so...EVERYONE CAN DO WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT! NO RAMIFICATIONS! PAAAAAAAAARTY!"


You're right. A real scientist would say "well, George, we don't have enough data to prove this, so we need to do some (more) experiments and collect additional data."


----------



## tardis101

Ed said:


> You really don't get why this is a meaningless statement do you? I flagged this as a red herring as it has no weight. Your attempting to indicate that because they or you work with endangered species that they and you are unable to be dishonest, create, use or even recognize bad scientific principles knowingly or unknowingly
> 
> You set a bar that anecdotal, and/or hearsay evidence isn't of use in this discussion but you consistently violate that bar when your caught out.
> Additionally you keep using this in place of having to address points, that is why it is a red herring. Your using it as something to hide behind ...
> 
> 
> 
> So I misinterpreted your statement because you keep waving around the field biologist expert fallacy. So with my misinterpretation included I'll relegate this to the dust bin as your side is still meaningless: see above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your dodging and deflecting again. Your entire argument on whether it may or may not be a risk is predicated on the fact that "science does not generalize".
> IF science does not generalize then why do those papers have generalizations on salmon that are from panthers, wolves, fruit flies, other fish species, and plants? And that is before we get into multiple articles that are generalizations in and of themselves built on models of other species ....
> *
> So are those or are those not generalizations?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I haven't. I'm demonstrating that deceptive behavior has occurred in several instances. So you admit that you made those quotes? I'm just making sure.
> Now if we add in this quote from post #2005, we have the argument that at the very least hybrids are acceptable because USA frog is addressing claims of inferiority. The reason this is a point in this discussion is it demonstrates that changes in "opinion" occur when pressed or backed into a corner. This does imply motive to why you need to deny that science doesn't generalize and that articles on outbreeding cannot be used as an argument that outbreeding may be a risk to the captive populations.
> 
> 
> 
> So are those papers in the bibliography of the article I cited, are they being applied as a generalization or aren't they? According to you, the outbreeding papers that don't mention dart frogs cannot be applied to dart frogs because science doesn't generalize. So then why are they cited and used? Why are they using models built on other species on salmon?
> 
> Its a simple question were those articles applied as generalizations since they weren't about salmon?
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


This entire post is a red herring. You're hanging your hat on one sentence I wrote. And it can all be debunked by providing a quote of what I said.



tardis101 said:


> ...I'm not the one being dishonest here, but you go ahead and keep telling people I'm the one not being honest. *Science does NOT generalize* the way you talking at all...


Poorly written, but my point was NOT that science doesn't generalize. But that science doesn't generalize in the way that YOU are presenting the information.


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> And yes, tardis, stands for the beloved time machine of The Doctor, from Doctor Who. I've been watching it since 1978.  Now I feel old.


Lightweight. I started watching it shortly after John Pertwee became the doctor. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

tardis101 said:


> . But to go with one from a science basis and say it confirms the theory of outbreeding depression in dart frogs isn't supported.


Where was it conclusively said that outbreeding depression has been confirmed in dart frogs? 

I think you being deceptive again. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> This entire post is a red herring. You're hanging your hat on one sentence I wrote. And it can all be debunked by providing a quote of what I said.
> 
> Poorly written, but my point was NOT that science doesn't generalize. But that science doesn't generalize in the way that YOU are presenting the information.


Actually I'm not hanging my hat on it. I simply pointed out that you have a predetermined position and because of that it is in your interest to attempt to discredit and deny the science behind the issue. Since your invested in it, it is logically going to be harder for you to accept contradictory evidence hence the refusal to back up your position with references and to accept anything as being sufficient. It is simply confirming why you had to be dishonest about the science. 

So your now accepting the fact that science does generalize after multiple claims that it doesn't and that any application of any generalization is not science. 

Actually it is pertinent and your again attempting to move your definitions to try and prevent getting pinned down as well as a form of damage control; which is again a form of being dishonest in your presentation. 

I find this to be an interesting position after all of the times you stated that since a study wasn't done on dart frogs specifically, it wasn't correct to generalize that there could be a risk. 

Now let us take your position, in that any application of the science in a predictive or preventive generalization is incorrect until it has been studied explicitly in that species Are you now going to claim that this is also a incorrect generalization or shall I pull up published references to show that this in fact does occur? 

You do realize that trying to paint it as an opinion does not in any way mean that you aren't wrong or right. Opinions when they include facts can be demonstrated to be incorrect. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed

Calivet said:


> I didn't say human medical research, I said medical research. Generalizations are made between different species all the time (including extrapolation from humans TO other species). Obligatory


One of my favorite generalizations from people to animals is this study 
Spiller, G. A. 1993. Dietary fiber in human nutrition. CRC, Boca Raton, Florida, USA.
used here Welch, Christy A., et al. "Constraints on frugivory by bears." Ecology 78.4 (1997): 1105-1119. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Calivet

tardis101 said:


> You're deciding what is ethical or not in this case. You're right I'm not willing to jump into the "is this ethical or not" game. The same argument about what's ethical or not can be directed at trying to put someone out of business, which is the majority of what this thread is at this point. The entire practice of keeping wild animals and in this case rare species can be viewed as being unethical. Ethics change depending on the point of view. Its much more subjective, which is why I'm not weighing in on that.


This is nonsense. There are legal and moral standards of care with regards to animal husbandry, and scientific studies supporting why they are good ideas. With what you claim you do you should know that. Refusing to discuss whether or not there IS an ethical standard simply calls yours into question. 



tardis101 said:


> Where am I applying an inconsistent standard? I'm not making a case for hybrids (mixed morph or otherwise). I've said that so many times not it's a wonder people don't have it ingrained in their minds at this point. I have an opinion about inbreeding depression, is that what you mean? Because I'm not going in depth as to why I think that's a concern? I said earlier, if folks want to talk more about inbreeding depression we can. I think we should move it to another thread though.


This thread is littered with you decrying anecdotal evidence, then using anecdotal evidence to support your contention that inbreeding is a larger risk than outbreeding depression. Please go review your own posts before trying to argue this topic. 



tardis101 said:


> You're right. A real scientist would say "well, George, we don't have enough data to prove this, so we need to do some (more) experiments and collect additional data."


And until those studies were done, they would proceed in the fashion which had the least chance of causing harm. That would mean avoiding inbreeding AND outbreeding when unnecessary and avoidable. Real scientists don't put their head in the sand and pretend that there are no ramifications to their actions. Not the ethical ones. You keep ignoring this. The discussion doesn't end with "we need more research". It continues with "what should we do, and perhaps more importantly NOT DO, until it gets done".


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## vachyner

Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going (took a break for a while). Now, I don't know much about all of the science being talked about here, but I do know people and how they work. With all of the "can I keep these frogs together" questions that come up since I first started lurking around here a few years ago it is apparent to me that this discussion on the ethical creations of hybrids is moot - they're already floating around. Some people may even have some offspring in their collection and not even realize it. The damage has already been done. It's like Pandora's box: once you open that thing up and release the contents, that's it. I'd say it's a safe bet that about 70% of the people that asked about hybrids went and did it anyway, even after being given reason as to why the hobby is against said practice. 

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## edwardsatc

Back on the topic of USAFrog here's a couple of new pages they just put up with some interesting (and comical) reading. Most of it just rehashing the usual non-sensical blather (or to use their words "utter nonsense), bit still comical. I'm sure they won't keep these pages up for long ... they never do.

USAFrog Biology:
Conservation and Preservation

USAFrog Corporate:
USA Frog - Corporate Home

"Our team of senior managers pair experience and innovative leadership with a never settle for second best commitment to quality ..."

Oh boy, I guess we can all start calling our kids "senior managers"

They also have a link up for a USAFrog Innovations page but it doesn't seem to be functional yet.


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## edwardsatc

vachyner said:


> I'd say it's a safe bet that about 70% of the people that asked about hybrids went and did it anyway, even after being given reason as to why the hobby is against said practice.


Really? 70%? Do you have anything to back that statistic up or are you just pulling it out of your ass? I suspect the latter ...


----------



## vachyner

edwardsatc said:


> Back on the topic of USAFrog here's a couple of new pages they just put up with some interesting (and comical) reading. Most of it just rehashing the usual non-sensical blather (or to use their words "utter nonsense), bit still comical. I'm sure they won't keep these pages up for long ... they never do.
> 
> USAFrog Biology:
> Conservation and Preservation
> 
> USAFrog Corporate:
> USA Frog - Corporate Home
> 
> "Our team of senior managers pair experience and innovative leadership with a never settle for second best commitment to quality ..."
> 
> Oh boy, I guess we can all start calling our kids "senior managers"
> 
> They also have a link up for a USAFrog Innovations page but it doesn't seem to be functional yet.


For them to still even exist means one of two things: they're actually moving quantity, which means there is a flush of garbage moving through the hobby, or they are so far in the red that eventually you'll see them on the corner trading frogs for soup cans.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## vachyner

edwardsatc said:


> Really? 70%? Do you have anything to back that statistic up or are you just pulling it out of your ass? I suspect the latter ...


 I've become quite adept over my career in gauging people and what they're going to do. That number would be my guesstimate as to their reaction after being run off here. People are going to do what people are going to do. They came here to ask a question about something they fully intended to do already. While some may have been deterred by the barrage of "NO!", the majority of those that simply disappeared likely went on to do as they originally intended.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## edwardsatc

vachyner said:


> I've become quite adept over my career in gauging people and what they're going to do. That number would be my guesstimate as to their reaction after being run off here. People are going to do what people are going to do. They came here to ask a question about something they fully intended to do already. While some may have been deterred by the barrage of "NO!", the majority of those that simply disappeared likely went on to do as they originally intended.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


In other words, it's a random number.


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## Dane

vachyner said:


> While some may have been deterred by the barrage of "NO!", the majority of those that simply disappeared likely went on to do as they originally intended.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


If the parties in question disappeared off of this forum, which is still full of invested hobbyists willing to give the same sound advice to beginners, and monitor (in some fashion) the animals that are sold here, I still call it a small win.


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## vachyner

Dane said:


> If the parties in question disappeared off of this forum, which is still full of invested hobbyists willing to give the same sound advice to beginners, and monitor (in some fashion) the animals that are sold here, I still call it a small win.


I'd agree it's a win for those listen, however one of those peoplethat did disappear is the very reason this entire thread exists. While they aren't on the board anymore, they are still doing damage.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## edwardsatc

vachyner said:


> For them to still even exist means one of two things: they're actually moving quantity, which means there is a flush of garbage moving through the hobby, or they are so far in the red that eventually you'll see them on the corner trading frogs for soup cans.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Considering that they continue to claim an inventory of over 10,000 animals (as recently as today when they put up their USAFrog Corporate webpage About USA Frog ), it doesn't appear that they are moving quantity. Does a dart frog business wind up with over 10,000 animals if they're actually moving large quantities? 

Think about it ... over 10,000! At least that's their _claim_. Even if they were to start moving decent quantities, the market just isn't large enough to absorb them. Some of those frogs will die of old age before they ever make it the door.

And at prices less than $20, they're basically already trading them for soup cans.


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## vachyner

edwardsatc said:


> In other words, it's a random number.


Yeah, that's what a guesstimate is. Even if it was only one person (eg the one guy behind the reason of this thread) the damage can be incredible. Only difference is USA frog is doing it loud right in front of your face. This is one forum on the internet and you'd be naive to think just because they leave here they didn't settle in somewhere else to hock their wares. 

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## vachyner

edwardsatc said:


> Considering that they continue to claim an inventory of over 10,000 animals (as recently as today when they put up their USAFrog Corporate webpage About USA Frog ), it doesn't appear that they are moving quantity. Does a dart frog business wind up with over 10,000 animals if they're actually moving large quantities?
> 
> Think about it ... over 10,000! At least that's their _claim_. Even if they were to start moving decent quantities, the market just isn't large enough to absorb them. Some of those frogs will die of old age before they ever make it the door.
> 
> And at prices less than $20, they're basically already trading them for soup cans.


Yeah, not too far off I guess. I wonder if his kid is regretting that whole "let's blow my college fund on frogs thing.". I mean, uve made some dumb impulse buys in my day, but dang. Unfortunately, even if the number is a quarter of that and they are able to move them there will be plenty of hybrid frogs floating out there. Odds are the people buying them won't keep them alive long, but I'm sure there will be people that do take care of them and could release the offspring out into the hobby thinking they are something they aren't.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## Ed

vachyner said:


> Unfortunately, even if the number is a quarter of that and they are able to move them there will be plenty of hybrid frogs floating out there. Odds are the people buying them won't keep them alive long, but I'm sure there will be people that do take care of them and could release the offspring out into the hobby thinking they are something they aren't.


I suspect most of the animals are being sold wholesale as opposed from their site. If that is the case then the frogs they sold may or may not have been crossed as they use the definition that crosses within a species regardless if they are from the same population or not are not hybrids. Due to this definition it is possible they are simply labeling them as whatever they look closest to in appearance. 
The ones they sell direct to hobbyists are likely to be under a trademarked name and since the hobby puts weight on the line/origin of the frogs those are going to be of less risk if they still use the trademarked name for them. 
So generally for the ones purchased directly to be released and be a risk, someone would have to misrepresent the frogs and their offspring.. 

As a result the best practice is probably going to be to simply suggest that frogs of unknown origin not be used in the captive populations where there is a good chance of little or no genetic contribution from other populations. 

So even though those who advocate crossing the frogs have probably settled somewhere else and may or may not be continuing their practices it doesn't mean that those frogs will definitely end up in the specific populations. Since the reproductive lifespan of the larger frogs can run into the mid-20s it is going to be possible to get individuals that preceded this attempt to exploit the market. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

vachyner said:


> I'd agree it's a win for those listen, however one of those peoplethat did disappear is the very reason this entire thread exists. While they aren't on the board anymore, they are still doing damage.



Which is where the suggestion came from before that people should get one or two species/populations that they like and hang onto them. The long lifespan of these frogs can be used to bank against introduction of hybrids in the primary gene pool. 

Perhaps one of the greatest risks to the hobby in this fashion originates from the status gained by how diverse a collection has been over time as well as the status provided by breeding the frogs. Both of these are hold-overs from the point in time that the care of the frogs hadn't been reduced to cookbook methodology. There isn't anything with breeding the frogs to help defray costs but people tend to want to rear each and every tadpole which then helps to contribute to the decreases in process and then the turn over of the collections. 

To repeat myself, to some extent the hobby has shot themselves in the foot with these issues as they have consistently made the point that the frogs should never be sold into the general pet trade stream and to only purchases from breeders. This becomes an issue when large numbers of people are producing the same frogs or kinds of frogs while not selling to the largest available market. A not insignificant portion of the hobby went out of their way to ensure a negative stigma was placed on "resellers" which left the market pretty much wide open to the peddling of crosses and hybrids. 

So to say it again, people should when possible begin to sell to the larger pet trade as this will help prevent a saturation of the niche market as well as provide competition against hybrids. People forget that as a hobby, they don't have to turn an overall profit which makes then more resilient to market swings than those who have sunk large sums into it. 


some comments 

Ed


----------



## tardis101

Calivet said:


> This is nonsense. There are legal and moral standards of care with regards to animal husbandry, and scientific studies supporting why they are good ideas. With what you claim you do you should know that. Refusing to discuss whether or not there IS an ethical standard simply calls yours into question.


Nope not gonna let ya do that. Ethics is subjective in many many cases. As I ALREADY pointed out, there are a lot of people who think it's unethical to even house wild animals. Other people are going to think it's unethical to house wild rare animals. Just like some people are going to say it's unethical to eat meat. Or unethical to conduct animal experiments (even for medical research etc.). Ethics is not nearly as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. Sure there are standards in housing experimental animals (say in a university setting). I can say what I think is ethical with respect to dart frogs, for example the minimum size tanks to house say a pair of tincs, someone else may have a different ethical standard. It doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. And that's why I'm not going to argue it one way or another.



Calivet said:


> This thread is littered with you decrying anecdotal evidence, then using anecdotal evidence to support your contention that inbreeding is a larger risk than outbreeding depression. Please go review your own posts before trying to argue this topic.


Again this is incorrect. I did not say there was any direct evidence for inbreeding depression in dart frogs. I said in my opinion I would be more concerned with inbreeding than outbreeding depression. But I also specifically said that was my opinion. I have not take it up as a position to be argued. I said I'd be happy to discuss it and why I think it's a concern, but so far no one has taken me up on it except to say I haven't defended the position.

PS. On the light note again. Tom Baker was my first Doctor. My first episode was "The Power of Kroll." Last night I watched The Claws of Axos. Tonight it's Colony in Space. I have every episode of Doctor who known to be in existence. I'm a nerd and I know it.


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## allegedhuman

With all the back and forth I don’t see any signs of coming to agreement over the main argument. Maybe if we could first all agree on an easier, simpler point of view we can bring the sides together and build from there?

So let’s start with something easy we can all agree on without debate… 

Clearly the 9th Doctor was the best…


Hahahha…
Runs away…
Sorry, couldn’t help myself. Now there will be two major debates in this thread that will never die down...


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## vachyner

allegedhuman said:


> With all the back and forth I don’t see any signs of coming to agreement over the main argument. Maybe if we could first all agree on an easier, simpler point of view we can bring the sides together and build from there?
> 
> So let’s start with something easy we can all agree on without debate…
> 
> Clearly the 9th Doctor was the best…
> 
> 
> Hahahha…
> Runs away…
> Sorry, couldn’t help myself. Now there will be two major debates in this thread that will never die down...


LIES! The 10th doctor was the best! David Tennant for the win! I even love to hate him in Jessica Jones.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## vachyner

allegedhuman said:


> With all the back and forth I don’t see any signs of coming to agreement over the main argument. Maybe if we could first all agree on an easier, simpler point of view we can bring the sides together and build from there?
> 
> So let’s start with something easy we can all agree on without debate…
> 
> Clearly the 9th Doctor was the best…
> 
> 
> Hahahha…
> Runs away…
> Sorry, couldn’t help myself. Now there will be two major debates in this thread that will never die down...


Also, this thread will never end. Nobody will ever "win."

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## Vinegaroonie

vachyner said:


> Also, this thread will never end. Nobody will ever "win."
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


I was literally just about to say that


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## Ed

vachyner said:


> Also, this thread will never end. Nobody will ever "win"


Why does it have to be about a "win"? I don't see the thread in that manner even though I've dragged through more than one argument. 

The important aspects of this thread are what is happening with the frogs and how it can affect them. How do you establish that without occasionally having a a debate or argument? 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> Nope not gonna let ya do that. Ethics is subjective in many many cases.


Point of fact since ethics are not subjective. That is a common misconception. Your confusing ethics with cultural relativism. 



tardis101 said:


> Again this is incorrect. I did not say there was any direct evidence for inbreeding depression in dart frogs. I said in my opinion I would be more concerned with inbreeding than outbreeding depression. But I also specifically said that was my opinion. I have not take it up as a position to be argued. I said I'd be happy to discuss it and why I think it's a concern, but so far no one has taken me up on it except to say I haven't defended the position.


Claiming something was an opinion, does not make it an opinion particularly when you include facts with it. This is where an opinion moves from a belief that cannot be shown to be wrong to one that can be disproven. 

When you started denying any application of generalization of the science in the topics of outbreeding depression you moved from a simple belief statement to one that included facts. As such you cannot simply make the claim that since it is an opinion statement it cannot be treated as if you actually took a side. You clearly took a position and used "fact" to deny any and all evidence to the contrary. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> Considering that they continue to claim an inventory of over 10,000 animals (as recently as today when they put up their USAFrog Corporate webpage About USA Frog ), it doesn't appear that they are moving quantity. Does a dart frog business wind up with over 10,000 animals if they're actually moving large quantities?
> 
> Think about it ... over 10,000! At least that's their _claim_. Even if they were to start moving decent quantities, the market just isn't large enough to absorb them. Some of those frogs will die of old age before they ever make it the door.
> 
> And at prices less than $20, they're basically already trading them for soup cans.


Amen, and this is a big deal because if they are producing that many animals and not moving them into good new homes, then they are being highly irresponsible... basically that's animal hoarding.

And...
Given how loath Rick and the gang are to admit they're wrong about anything: It wouldn't surprise me to learn that animals just keep piling up, with very few people willing to buy them. Ya it's somewhat speculative, but as Donn said, you don't end up with 10,000 frogs if they're selling like hotcakes


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## tardis101

Ed said:


> Point of fact since ethics are not subjective. That is a common misconception. Your confusing ethics with cultural relativism.


Bologney. What is generally referred to as ethics, changes all the time; ethics often correspond to changes in religious beliefs, philosophic, or some other cultural "norm." Torture was ethical at one time, hanging was ethical at one time, having sex before marriage is unethical according to some groups, but not all, interracial marriages, homosexuality, you can go on and on. You can find loads of information about the topic of ethics, morals, cultural relativism, absolutism, social mores, etc all over the internet. There are lots of discussions about what they are or aren't, whether they are objective or subjective, etc. But it's not a discussion I'm going to engage in. 



Ed said:


> Claiming something was an opinion, does not make it an opinion particularly when you include facts with it. This is where an opinion moves from a belief that cannot be shown to be wrong to one that can be disproven.


I agree with you. That last sentence is exactly what I've been saying. You have an opinion about potential harm to individual frogs as a result of outbreeding depression and you are arguing that it's a factual opinion, because there is data in other species showing outbreeding. But it hasn't been tested. So it is in fact still just an opinion. That doesn't mean it's not a good opinion. It's based on empirical evidence in other species, which is fine, but it's still an opinion.



Ed said:


> When you started denying any application of generalization of the science in the topics of outbreeding depression you moved from a simple belief statement to one that included facts. As such you cannot simply make the claim that since it is an opinion statement it cannot be treated as if you actually took a side. You clearly took a position and used "fact" to deny any and all evidence to the contrary.


So again are you're not understanding at all what I'm saying. I didn't deny any generalization of science in the topic of outbreeding. I said (again) that while there is in fact evidence of outbreeding depression in various organism, you can't just apply that cart blanch to all dart frogs. You have enough information to form a hypothesis and that can then be tested. But you either won't do it or you don't want too (which again is fine), but at that point you're still trying to state an opinion as a fact when you don't know that is.

Mike


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## vachyner

Ed said:


> Why does it have to be about a "win"? I don't see the thread in that manner even though I've dragged through more than one argument.
> 
> The important aspects of this thread are what is happening with the frogs and how it can affect them. How do you establish that without occasionally having a a debate or argument?
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I would say the point of any conflict (an argument, in this case) is to win. Why show up to one if you don't plan on winning? There is a lot being discussed in this thread, some of it being running arguments/debates. The only reason I still pop in and check this thread out is because it helped me avoid the business in question when I was looking to purchase some azureus a while back and more good info aside from "don't buy from these guys" has also caught my attention. As I said a few posts up, I don't know really know much about the science you all discuss here, but I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge floating around this place as it has helped me tremendously.

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## Ed

tardis101 said:


> Bologney. What is generally referred to as ethics, changes all the time; ethics often correspond to changes in religious beliefs, philosophic, or some other cultural "norm."


Which is why this is not ethics but cultural relativism. Your confusing mores with ethics as mores change over time but ethics does not. 

See this definition from Ethical Relativism



> Cultural Relativism (sociological relativism): the descriptive view that different groups of people have different moral standards for evaluating acts as right or wrong.
> 
> *A. Hence, it is not an ethical doctrine--it's a sociological or observational conclusion--even so; the view is somewhat ambiguous.*
> 
> B. For example, different groups might have the same basic moral principle, but apply the principle in radically different situations. (If we take the principle of the greatest good for the greatest number as an instance, then this utilitarian principle could be instantiated both in the present day U.S.'s custom to care for the aged and infirm and the historical Inuit custom for the elderly and infirm go off to die rather than endanger the tribe as it moves to winter quarters. The same principle here has two significantly different applications.)
> 
> 1. A second sense of cultural relativism is less obvious. I.e., that different cultures differ on basic moral principles.
> 
> 2. A possible reason for the observation of cultural relativism is shown by the example of basic moral principles which could be said to support different moral rules according to the interpretations of different cultures. In the following diagrams, there are two vastly different interpretations listed for each moral principle.


This is why you cannot claim that ethics are subjective, they are not. If it is ethically wrong, it is always ethically wrong. 



tardis101 said:


> I agree with you. That last sentence is exactly what I've been saying. You have an opinion about potential harm to individual frogs as a result of outbreeding depression and you are arguing that it's a factual opinion, because there is data in other species showing outbreeding. But it hasn't been tested. So it is in fact still just an opinion. That doesn't mean it's not a good opinion. It's based on empirical evidence in other species, which is fine, but it's still an opinion.


so lets bring back the question I asked and you didn't answer. 

Does science ever use generalization(s) in a predictive or protective function? 

So all of the applications of Hardy-Weinberg modeling in captive population management are opinions? So according your argument these papera are opinions as they isn't specific to any one species?? 

Edmands, Suzanne. "Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management." Molecular Ecology 16.3 (2007): 463-475.

CHESSER, RONALD K., MICHAEL H. SMITH, and I. Brisbin. "Management and maintenance of genetic variability in endangered species." International Zoo Yearbook 20.1 (1980): 146-154.

Lacy, Robert C. "Loss of genetic diversity from managed populations: interacting effects of drift, mutation, immigration, selection, and population subdivision." Conservation Biology 1.2 (1987): 143-158. 




tardis101 said:


> So again are you're not understanding at all what I'm saying. I didn't deny any generalization of science in the topic of outbreeding. I said (again) that while there is in fact evidence of outbreeding depression in various organism, you can't just apply that cart blanch to all dart frogs. You have enough information to form a hypothesis and that can then be tested



And what your saying is flat out incorrect. As I've repeatedly pointed out it is a problem to make the claim that the generalization cannot be applied in a predictive manner. It happens all of the time and the body of literature on this is extensive and varied. 

Attempts to claim that reducing or trying to attempt to prevent outbreeding or even inbreeding risks in a captive population cannot be taken based on other species is a flat out lie as well as being incorrect. That position actually denies the fundamental basis for how evolution etc functions. 

There is abundant literature that enables the applications of things like Hardy-Weinberg modeling to diverse species without having to confirm that that specific species or even population responds as predicted. 

See for example Spielman, Derek, Barry W. Brook, and Richard Frankham. "Most species are not driven to extinction before genetic factors impact them." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 101.42 (2004): 15261-15264. 
the above was a generic application across the IUCN redlist. So is that paper an opinion on the application of the science? 

You refuse to directly address the direct contradictions of your position on applications of generalizations that are present in the literature. 
For example NOAA has this publication 
Lynch, Michael. "Inbreeding depression and outbreeding depression." Genetic Effects of Straying of Non-native Hatchery Fish into Natural Populations: Proceedings of the Workshop. US Dept. Comm., NOAA Tech Memo. NMFS-NWFSC-30. 1997.

Where the following statement is made 


> Evidence for outbreeding depression is much less extensive than evidence for inbreeding depression,* but outbreeding depression is nevertheless a general genetic phenomenon.*


So here we have a publication that indicates it to be a general genetic phenomenon. If it is a general genetic phenomenon .... 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

vachyner said:


> I would say the point of any conflict (an argument, in this case) is to win. Why show up to one if you don't plan on winning? There is a lot being discussed in this thread, some of it being running arguments/debates.


In short people shouldn't engage in debates or arguments? 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## cmk

Bringing this back to Usafrog for a sec. Has anyone else (breeders and sellers to locale shops) here seen a HUGE drop in tinc prices in their local pet shops? Ive now talked with 3 people, one breeder and two shop owner/managers, that say theyre getting tincs as low as $7.00. I saw a post here that mentioned usafrog must be moving quantity around and there's a potential for "tainted" frogs out there. If you do the math right usafrog frogs can be around that price for their wholesale stuff. Just saying.


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## vachyner

Ed said:


> In short people shouldn't engage in debates or arguments?
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


No, not at all. Debate moves a subject forward. People argue their point because they believe they have the correct answer, but so does their opposition. Neither side goes into it thinking "I'm gonna go ahead and not win tonight." 

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## Dane

vachyner said:


> Neither side goes into it thinking "I'm gonna go ahead and not win tonight."
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Apparently tardis101 does, as he has no agenda or side in this debate (or he is on the side of the non-hybrid camp, but the rest of us are wrong in our reasoning for choosing that same position?) . When that is the case, you can't win or lose, but you can make everyone run around in circles.


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## Boondoggle

vachyner said:


> Also, this thread will never end. Nobody will ever "win."
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


Yeah. Neither Ed nor Tardis are going to change their position. I think the real value of this debate comes when people who are researching this topic in the future see this thread and are able to make a decision based on the facts and opinions presented. I'm pretty convinced on the value of representative science in this case, myself. 

Also, while I didn't really get on board until the Tom Baker years, and only lasted until the Colin Baker years, I have since gone back and watched every episode from 1963 until now. So if you're looking for a "win", that may be it.


----------



## edwardsatc

vachyner said:


> No, not at all. Debate moves a subject forward. People argue their point because they believe they have the correct answer, but so does their opposition. Neither side goes into it thinking "I'm gonna go ahead and not win tonight."
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


For me, this thread has never been about "winning". It has been about presenting information which may be of use to those who may be considering a purchase from the breeder/vendor in question and debunking the junk science with which some have used to justify the practices of certain breeder/vendors. 

Winning? - no. Informed decision making? - Yes.


----------



## edwardsatc

Calivet said:


> I didn't say human medical research, I said medical research. Generalizations are made between different species all the time (including extrapolation from humans TO other species). Obligatory :rolleyes


Yes and this is where tardis101's argument crashes and burns. He continues to hold on to this argument that if the data is not observed from the exact organism in question, then it is not valid. According to this line of thought, we would have to design and carry out experimentation for every species in order to accept a widely (almost universally) accepted generalization. This, to me, points to a serious lack of understanding of of the underlying science.

In my line of work (environmental toxicology), two words can be used to describe one of the most widely used forms of scientific generalization ... model organisms.

In fact, if anyone should understand the use of model or surrogate organisms it should be someone who works with endangered species. How would tardis101 suggest that we test the hypothesis of outbreeding depression in one of those endangered species that he is trying to protect? Shall we go gather the remaining individuals and test the hypothesis, or should we use the abundant examples derived from model and surrogate organisms? I think we all know the answer ...

As Ed has previously stated, tardis101's rationalizations are a red herring and nothing more.


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## vachyner

edwardsatc said:


> For me, this thread has never been about "winning". It has been about presenting information which may be of use to those who may be considering a purchase from the breeder/vendor in question and debunking the junk science with which some have used to justify the practices of certain breeder/vendors.
> 
> Winning? - no. Informed decision making? - Yes.


That's exactly what this thread did for me. I almost bought frogs from these guys, but not after seeing this. 

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


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## tardis101

Ed said:


> Which is why this is not ethics but cultural relativism. Your confusing mores with ethics as mores change over time but ethics does not.
> 
> See this definition from Ethical Relativism
> 
> 
> 
> This is why you cannot claim that ethics are subjective, they are not. If it is ethically wrong, it is always ethically wrong.


Incorrect again. You're continuing to try and water down every counter point and confuse every issue through your own lens of interpretation. But I'm not going to keep arguing with you about it. I didn't bring up ethics to begin with. 





Ed said:


> so lets bring back the question I asked and you didn't answer.


Actually I believe I did answer it. You just didn't like the answer.


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## tardis101

edwardsatc said:


> Yes and this is where tardis101's argument crashes and burns. He continues to hold on to this argument that if the data is not observed from the exact organism in question, then it is not valid. According to this line of thought, we would have to design and carry out experimentation for every species in order to accept a widely (almost universally) accepted generalization. This, to me, points to a serious lack of understanding of of the underlying science.


No I didn't say that. What I said, was there is enough information to form valid hypothesis that then needs to be tested if you want to make the argument that something is in fact a problem.



edwardsatc said:


> In my line of work (environmental toxicology), two words can be used to describe one of the most widely used forms of scientific generalization ... model organisms.
> 
> In fact, if anyone should understand the use of model or surrogate organisms it should be someone who works with endangered species. How would tardis101 suggest that we test the hypothesis of outbreeding depression in one of those endangered species that he is trying to protect? Shall we go gather the remaining individuals and test the hypothesis, or should we use the abundant examples derived from model and surrogate organisms? I think we all know the answer ...
> 
> As Ed has previously stated, tardis101's rationalizations are a red herring and nothing more.


Toxicology is a field that relies a great deal on modeling and surrogate species, because you can't just go out and poison an entire ecosystem with lead to see how it works out. You can use test organisms to try and characterize how a particular say...pesticide effects an endangered fish, but you can't test it on the endangered fish. So those are good points and you're exactly right. Where you can't directly test a hypothesis on a target organism the next best thing is either a closely related surrogate organism, a not closely related surrogate organism, or a model (probably in that order, with the model being the least preferred of the three). But that's not the preferred nor is it a standard in all the other bio fields (there are certainly other bio fields that rely on them - I'm not saying toxicology is the only one). But my primary point continues to be missed entirely which appears to be why the term "red herring" is continued to be thrown out there. 

My point continues to be confused, by saying/suggesting that I don't "believe" in outbreeding depression or that it doesn't exist. That's not true. I understand what it is. My point (which I've stated several times) is not that it doesn't exist, but that if you want to definitively say it's a problem in captive breed dart frogs (which people are doing regularly) that you can't do that based on the information available. All you can do is say it is potentially a problem based on these other examples (or models if you want). But to say for sure then you need to take the next step and test that idea to see if it pans out. It would be very easy to test and the data would likely be really useful in managing captive bred pdfs. For any budding grad student in herpetology, you'd probably end up with a publishable masters thesis.


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## allegedhuman

It has been fun getting into philosophical territory and having some good debate topics. Ahhh, cultural relativism vs ethics, this is too much fun, who would ever want this thread to end when we keep getting onto gems like this to talk about! (Not to mention pointing out the hilariously other wacky “facts” from their website they keep spinning out). Should we start a dendroboard debate team? With the various topics raised from this thread, obviously there would be some great members on the forum to contribute. 


Anyways, back to topic. I do like how they go into such herculean efforts to try to explain so-called facts and science in such a wacky way (where else can I know to go to get a good laugh anytime I need one?). I’d like to think potential customers who reads their website would realize that something definitely seems off with the tone/manner of the advertising and get a few warning signs even before finding this thread. 



edwardsatc said:


> For me, this thread has never been about "winning". It has been about presenting information which may be of use to those who may be considering a purchase from the breeder/vendor in question and debunking the junk science with which some have used to justify the practices of certain breeder/vendors.
> 
> Winning? - no. Informed decision making? - Yes





vachyner said:


> That's exactly what this thread did for me. I almost bought frogs from these guys, but not after seeing this.
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk



We just keep coming to this thread because it is like watching a car accident…know it is no good but still can’t look away and, if lucky, we get in a bit of spirited debate while at it and pass on a bit of REAL biology and get out info to consumers so they won’t end up regretting their purchases later or getting off on the wrong foot immediately in a new hobby. I agree that is the best way to gauge a “win” in this thread too.


Although I still will disagree with you Tardis that we need to wait for a study conducted specifically in captive dart frogs to test outbreeding depression before making a choice on how to respond to questions regarding hybridization. 



tardis101 said:


> My point (which I've stated several times) is not that it doesn't exist, but that if you want to definitively say it's a problem in captive breed dart frogs (which people are doing regularly) that you can't do that based on the information available. All you can do is say it is potentially a problem based on these other examples (or models if you want). But to say for sure then you need to take the next step and test that idea to see if it pans out.


We are not "definitely" saying it is a proven problem in captive dart frogs, we are saying it is a potential problem people should be aware of and should be concerned about. So both sides agree that outbreeding is a concern. Our agreement breaks down when it comes to how to answer people who ask about mixing and breeding frogs.

I'd rather say "we don't think it is a good idea due to outbreeding depression based on studies in related species". I believe you want a final study specifically in this exact scenario before making any kind of statement and are saying "we don't have a study involving outbreeding depression in captive poison dart frogs to test it in this exact scenario, so we shouldn't make any suggestions in the meantime"? 

With the current evidence in the literature I feel comfortable saying "avoid it". It is much easier to avoid causing a problem with populations than try to remedy it after we prove conclusively what we earlier had suspected. Isn't that a goal of conservation? People operate using working hypothesis to build policy decisions and plan future steps all the time. 

When the current studies we do have suggest outbreeding depression is an issue for many diverse species, why should we believe frogs are an exception to this well-known biological concept? Especially considering the point that keeps being mentioned that we don't have evidence proving contrary in this specific situation?


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## markpulawski

This thread is about a family that decided to mass produce dart frogs, they then decided to be unique as a dart frog business and mix morphs and likely even species in an effort to create their own brand after being strongly advised by the community as a whole not do those very things. Certain Tinc morphs will no doubt have a suspect eye in the future as a result of their activities and likely drive demand for imports.
These guys could have been a mini Josh's Frogs, throwing 10 ads a day up on Kingsnake and been viewed as a valid and good supplier of certain genus and species of amphibians, instead they choose to branch off into an area that has little or no support with the majority of hobbyists and in the process open a Pandora's Box of hundreds of suspect frogs ending up in the hands of who knows who. This is what needs to be taught to anyone entering our hobby, they can then make their own choice as to which path to follow.


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## Dendro Dave

I'm not sure how, but I stumbled on this article about the Designer of the Labradoodle, and his regrets. I think there are some relevant and interesting parallels here, and I wonder if one day we'll see a an article like this featuring Dillion or Rick and their regrets...
*

A Designer Dog-Maker Regrets His Creation*
The inventor of the Labradoodle believes he created a Frankenstein.
Posted Apr 01, 2014

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201404/designer-dog-maker-regrets-his-creation 

Note:
At least this guy had a fairly noble purpose as his reason (hypoallergenic guide dogs).


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## edwardsatc

A recent news release from USAFrogs:

*" We recently attended the 2016 Global Pet Expo held at the enormous Orange County Convention Center in Orlando, Florida.

On day one (Monday 3/14) of our trip we met up with our new business partners and toured their greenhouses, staging area and shipping facility, production and open air retail operation. With a combined 50+ years in the tropical plant business, as both brokers and growers, our partners truly impressed us as we watched their daily product fulfillment of orders including 1-800-FLOWERS. We were in awe at the flawless quality of the plants that went into their very impressive dish garden and vivarium builds. Then, the moment we were waiting for arrived. We were shown the artistic vivarium products we were set to use at the show to display our frogs.

The vivariums they built were/are some of the best we have ever seen—truly remarkable. Photos simply cannot capture the artistic beauty of their builds, but we will have links to the products very soon. All of the display units we used were pre-sold and included over 50 frogs. They are set to ship next week. We could not think of a better way to showcase frogs from USA Frog, and the Buyers obviously agreed even before we arrived!

* * *

Overall, the show itself was brisk every day. We made business contacts in 11 foreign countries and throughout the United States. Some of the most interesting data we gathered was from Buyers representing the exotic pet trade in Brazil, Colombia, Venezuela, Costa Rica, Panama, Ecuador, and Guatemala. Each of them contacted us directly on the first morning of the show to discuss the export of our frogs into their respective countries. We were told the demand is very high because the citizens of those countries are not allowed to lawfully own an indigenous species, including a wild caught dart frog. 

This type of information speaks volumes about the illegality of imports of Tinctorius, Auratus, and Leucomelas into the United States today, because possession at the local level (wild locale) is outright illegal.

USA Frog does not import any wild frogs from anywhere. Each and every frog we sell is captive bred by us here in the United States of America. 

As a final note on this topic, we discussed species, variety, and locale with every Buyer from the countries listed above, and EACH one was interested in the most color and pattern variations we could offer. No doubt we had a lot to discuss on the subject because USA Frog is a leading breeder of pet dendrobate dart frogs having the most diverse color and pattern variety anywhere.

More to follow."*


----------



## Vinegaroonie

I found this quote on their "Trade name" page particularly ridiculous:

"USA Frog is the most advanced professional breeder of Tinctorius simply by virtue of the numerous varieties only offered by us as USA Frog Exclusives—*nobody knows more about them than we do.* We realize there will ALWAYS be a place for the common blue azureus and all other common dart frogs, but there must also be an alternative to raiding the jungle for pet frogs as the demand for them increases. " 

Really? In their 3 years of breeding they know more about frogs than any of the hobbyists with 20+ years under their belts?


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## Dane

Vinegaroonie said:


> Really? In their 3 years of breeding they know more about frogs than any of the hobbyists with 20+ years under their belts?


...not to mention how much more they know than the scientists that work with these species professionally, who have been thoroughly unimpressed with USAFrog's practices and claims. I believe that Dr. Lotters even used the term "disgusting" in his letter response to their misuse of his work.


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## edwardsatc

I can only hope that they find their pet shrimp business so successful that they give up on their misguided foray into the frankenfrog business ...

*"USAShrimps
Freshwater Dwarf Shrimp - COMING THIS SUMMER!"*

USA Frog - SAFE® Pet Frogs - AMERICAN Pet Frogs ON SALE! - Freshwater Dwarf Shrimp - COMING THIS SUMMER!


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## allegedhuman

No! Not another hobby I like…gahhh… 

I hope they try to carry over their company plan of crossbreeding between different color varieties with shrimp just like they do with frogs to “revolutionize” the market even though most people don't recommend doing that with shrimp (sound familiar?)… Everybody loves mud brown shrimp that look like the normal wild ones…hahaha 

What do cross-bred shrimps look like? - The Planted Tank Forum

On a more serious note, are they just going to ignore the issue that there already is a company called Shrimp USA? (Shrimp USA) Nothing like a little bit of trademark infringement with a pre-existing company in the exact same market to make for a good business start up... unless you would like to get confused with the already established company on purpose...

If anyone wants to know where they got the great picture collage with with the 9 lovely shrimp photos from try this website Caridina sp. cantonensis var. Taiwan Bee â€¢ Caridine.it â€¢ Il sito italiano #1 dedicato a Caridine e Neocaridine where it has credits to the actual photographers who took the photos… sorry Giovanni Paoletti, Antonio Villani, Cristian Azzia and others…apparently since you are Italian it doesn’t count if they steal your photos without credit for use on an American’s commercial webpage… 

Especially since they like to trumpet their own horn and say “All images and photos are the sole and exclusive copyrighted property of U.S.A. Frog unless otherwise noted.” ...Well the "Copyright © 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 Caridine.it" tag on the bottom of http://www.caridine.it implies otherwise...

How long before they quickly tack up “thanks to (insert names here) for their photos” without actually asking for permission from the original photographers just like they tried with excerpts from Lotters book? If I posted this around 5pm on a Tuesday...will the original page last unredacted until the end of the day?? Put your bets in people...


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## GandalfTheGrey

edwardsatc said:


> I can only hope that they find their pet shrimp business so successful that they give up on their misguided foray into the frankenfrog business ...
> 
> *"USAShrimps
> Freshwater Dwarf Shrimp - COMING THIS SUMMER!"*
> 
> USA Frog - SAFE® Pet Frogs - AMERICAN Pet Frogs ON SALE! - Freshwater Dwarf Shrimp - COMING THIS SUMMER!


I can already picture it... "Introducing SAFE Dwarf Shrimp! We are simply the best at shrimp breeding, no one could possibly be better than us! Our SAFE brand insures that each and every shrimp you buy is SAFE and Aquarium-Ready!" And all that other fun stuff...


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## MasterOogway

GandalfTheGrey said:


> I can already picture it... "Introducing SAFE Dwarf Shrimp! We are simply the best at shrimp breeding, no one could possibly be better than us! Our SAFE brand insures that each and every shrimp you buy is SAFE and Aquarium-Ready!" And all that other fun stuff...


Ugh. Shrimp were one of my favorite hobbies at one point. This makes me sad inside. Hopefully they prove harder then they're anticipating, and it doesn't work out for them. My only real hope is they stick to basic species and varieties and don't get into more rare species such as Sulawesis.


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## GandalfTheGrey

TarantulaGuy said:


> Ugh. Shrimp were one of my favorite hobbies at one point. This makes me sad inside. Hopefully they prove harder then they're anticipating, and it doesn't work out for them. My only real hope is they stick to basic species and varieties and don't get into more rare species such as Sulawesis.


Seems a little unlikely, as they didn't do that with their frogs, though we can only keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best...


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## Vinegaroonie

Has anyone seen their living color pets (TM) site? I don't get the difference, just the same BS that's on usafrog or whatever their domain is at the moment...


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## edwardsatc

TarantulaGuy said:


> Ugh. Shrimp were one of my favorite hobbies at one point. This makes me sad inside. Hopefully they prove harder then they're anticipating, and it doesn't work out for them. My only real hope is they stick to basic species and varieties and don't get into more rare species such as Sulawesis.


The good news for shrimp lovers is that "coming soon" rarely ever comes ...

Typically "coming soon" is announced and then quietly taken down a week or so later.


----------



## edwardsatc

Vinegaroonie said:


> Has anyone seen their living color pets (TM) site? I don't get the difference, just the same BS that's on usafrog or whatever their domain is at the moment...


I use to keep a list of all the new domains and business names that have been used, but I can't seem to find it. Let's just say that it's quite extensive. (The list of trademarks is even much longer - some frogs have been renamed multiple times)

Some of it is probably to kill the links in threads like this. At other times it seems to have been used to shift the frankenfrogs to a different domain from their usual website. Who knows ... absolutely nothing they do seems to make any sense.


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## GandalfTheGrey

Ugh... Now they're selling frankentads, $15 a pop: BLOSSOMâ„¢ Tadpoles


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## MasterOogway

GandalfTheGrey said:


> Ugh... Now they're selling frankentads, $15 a pop: BLOSSOM™ Tadpoles


Wait. I know for the longest time over there they bragged about how the frogs they ship are older, more mature, and 'safer to ship' then what the rest of us hillbilly breeders do. But now they're selling tads. Bravo.


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## Blueper

Pardon my ignorance, but, what exactly makes them "Franken" tads (or, frogs)?
Is it that they simply give their own cute little nicknames to the variances in morphs? Is it that they are literally mixing morphs to obtain variances, such as "powder gray-legged", or, "ice blue", etc?
Are these natural variances that they are simply marketing and capitalizing on, or are they deliberately isolating variances in same morphs, to replicate those variances? As in: isolating and breeding PBs with grayish legs?
Or, are they randomly and chaotically mixing all tincs and however they turn out, they simply come up with a cute name for it and market it as its own morph?
I've been peeking in on this thread from time to time, since joining this board roughly a month(?) ago and again, don't know exactly what to think of all this.
A quick back story:
I work at a school with a small greenhouse. About 3-4 yrs ago, I built a large vivarium and got the science dept to house their annual science "kit" animals in it, as opposed to single animals at stations, in the classrooms. So, we ended up with a few hermit crabs in one tank and anoles and green tree frogs in the large viv. Now the students do their observations in the green house. Last year, my director incorporated a few smaller tinc vivs and I became quite enamored with the little guys. While my director was on vaca, he asked if I still wanted some Azureus. He said he could get me 4-wk old tads for $7, as opposed to juveniles ranging from $35-55. Loving a good deal, I found it hard to resist. However, the bigger factor being, it would give me a minimum of 2 months to get a viv put together and established. We already had the resources at work to care for the tads, while I got everything together at home. Well, about 2 weeks after getting them, I found the shipping paperwork. They came from USAfrog.
So,......after peeking in on this thread a few times prior to learning this, I wondered what to think.
Should I be concerned about anything?
First, I don't plan to breed the frogs. Second, if for any reason they do breed, I don't intend to sell them or even give them away. If anything, I would make another enclosure and bring them to work, for the kids to enjoy.
Lastly, naturally, I'm still going to take exceptional care of these animals. The frogs themselves don't know any better. They don't know where they're from or who their parents are. And I certainly won't enjoy having them any less.
Just wondering how concerned I should actually be, now that I know where they come from. Is there actually a chance that these are not truly Azureus, even if they end up looking exactly like Azureus? Is there a chance they may not be as healthy in the long run? 
Is this company still keeping a somewhat ethical breeding practice with most frogs and doing their hybridization separate and on the side? Or, are they randomly and chaotically mixing all these frogs and not paying any attention at all to breeding lines, etc?
Thanks.


----------



## carola1155

Blueper said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but, what exactly makes them "Franken" tads (or, frogs)?
> Is it that they simply give their own cute little nicknames to the variances in morphs? Is it that they are literally mixing morphs to obtain variances, such as "powder gray-legged", or, "ice blue", etc?
> Are these natural variances that they are simply marketing and capitalizing on, or are they deliberately isolating variances in same morphs, to replicate those variances? As in: isolating and breeding PBs with grayish legs?
> Or, are they randomly and chaotically mixing all tincs and however they turn out, they simply come up with a cute name for it and market it as its own morph?
> I've been peeking in on this thread from time to time, since joining this board roughly a month(?) ago and again, don't know exactly what to think of all this.


Those are all great questions that I wish we could answer... Unfortunately, the way they change the names and information makes it impossible to really know. It could be none or all of those things. We just don't know, which is the huge problem with it all.



Blueper said:


> Just wondering how concerned I should actually be, now that I know where they come from. Is there actually a chance that these are not truly Azureus, even if they end up looking exactly like Azureus?


There is always a chance of this and the odds are greatly increased when dealing with people that believe morphs are irrelevant and these frogs can only be separated by species. A huge caveat with this situation in particular is that there are some morphs that look exactly like Azureus. I have seen "New River" tincs that could very easily be confused with a slightly darker Azureus, and vice versa.


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## Dane

Blueper said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but, what exactly makes them "Franken" tads (or, frogs)?
> Is it that they simply give their own cute little nicknames to the variances in morphs? Is it that they are literally mixing morphs to obtain variances, such as "powder gray-legged", or, "ice blue", etc?


Could be both. The problem isn't so much that they're mixing (though the issues with that in itself have been discussed here and elsewhere _ad nauseum_), the problem is that they have provided misleading information about it time and time again, and may be misrepresenting what they are selling. 

"Ice blue" is not a rcognized naturally occurring variation, "Powder gray", or "Powder blue" tinctorius ARE, assuming that they are offspring of the original pure morph importations.



> Are these natural variances that they are simply marketing and capitalizing on, or are they deliberately isolating variances in same morphs, to replicate those variances? As in: isolating and breeding PBs with grayish legs?
> Or, are they randomly and chaotically mixing all tincs and however they turn out, they simply come up with a cute name for it and market it as its own morph?


Again, could be all three.



> Should I be concerned about anything?
> First, I don't plan to breed the frogs. Second, if for any reason they do breed, I don't intend to sell them or even give them away. If anything, I would make another enclosure and bring them to work, for the kids to enjoy.
> Lastly, naturally, I'm still going to take exceptional care of these animals. The frogs themselves don't know any better. They don't know where they're from or who their parents are. And I certainly won't enjoy having them any less.


If you wind up with a sexed pair, and keep them well-fed in a decent vivarium, they will produce offspring whether or not you want them to. Once that happens, you will be in a position to either raise every froglet that shows up (likely hundreds or even thousands over the course of the frogs potential 20+ year lifespan), or cull them. I don't know how well your students would take to that.
The frogs themselves may not care if they are hybrids, USFrog may not care, and you may not care. In that case everyone involved is happy, until some life circumstance requires that the original frogs or their progeny need to be re-homed. Can you guarantee that whomever they end up with will be honest, or even aware of the potential issues with these frogs when said third party starts selling/trading the animals?



> Just wondering how concerned I should actually be, now that I know where they come from. Is there actually a chance that these are not truly Azureus, even if they end up looking exactly like Azureus? Is there a chance they may not be as healthy in the long run?
> Is this company still keeping a somewhat ethical breeding practice with most frogs and doing their hybridization separate and on the side? Or, are they randomly and chaotically mixing all these frogs and not paying any attention at all to breeding lines, etc?
> Thanks.


Yes, it is possible to produce a hybrid that looks like an azureus. In terms of overall health and desirable genetic traits, hybrids of many different species (frog or other) have been shown to be lacking, or ultimately non-viable.
The rest of this thread is a record of the 'ethics' of DFW, and for anyone that has frogs from them, or are considering purchasing from them, it is worth your time to read more of it.


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## MasterOogway

Blueper said:


> Should I be concerned about anything?
> First, I don't plan to breed the frogs. Second, if for any reason they do breed, I don't intend to sell them or even give them away. If anything, I would make another enclosure and bring them to work, for the kids to enjoy.
> Lastly, naturally, I'm still going to take exceptional care of these animals. The frogs themselves don't know any better. They don't know where they're from or who their parents are. And I certainly won't enjoy having them any less.
> 
> Thanks.


I would still run the typical tests, chytrid, ranavirus, etc. If those turn up negative, you're fine as far as frog health is concerned. Especially "knowing" the background of these frogs, you've got the right idea with not breeding, or at least passing on the offspring. Trying to deal with questionable genetics just makes the whole buying/selling process so much harder. But, you should still get many many years of enjoyment out of them at any rate, and we'd rather someone responsible enough to know what they're dealing with (as you seem to be) to be the ones to keep these frogs, rather than someone who WILL breed them as much as possible and then sell some possible weird frankenfrogs back into the market.


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## Blueper

Dane said:


> If you wind up with a sexed pair, and keep them well-fed in a decent vivarium, they will produce offspring whether or not you want them to. Once that happens, you will be in a position to either raise every froglet that shows up (likely hundreds or even thousands over the course of the frogs potential 20+ year lifespan), or cull them. I don't know how well your students would take to that.
> The frogs themselves may not care if they are hybrids, USFrog may not care, and you may not care. In that case everyone involved is happy, until some life circumstance requires that the original frogs or their progeny need to be re-homed. Can you guarantee that whomever they end up with will be honest, or even aware of the potential issues with these frogs when said third party starts selling/trading the animals?


Thanks for the responses.
Well, if they end up breeding, I guess I'll have no choice but to cull,....or simply separate once they are sexed. I currently have 5 tads and it will be awhile before I have to cross that bridge. I had and have no intention of breeding/selling/giving frogs to friends. It wasn't my intention to breed initially, anyway. In the event that I can't keep the frogs, for whatever reason in the future, I'll make sure that whoever gets them, knows where they came from (with the added suggestion that they are not bred). I only say that because I know that,....you never know.
However, it's my intention to keep these frogs for the their entire lifespan. Hopefully they are healthy. Tads seem to be doing well so far. Hopefully they turn out to actually be Azureus.


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## Blueper

All that being said,.....seeing how I don't want to breed,....I'll probably have 2 pair that will breed like crazy. 
And if I wanted to breed, I probably wouldn't be able to make it happen if my life depended on it.
Just seems how things always go.


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## GandalfTheGrey

TarantulaGuy said:


> Wait. I know for the longest time over there they bragged about how the frogs they ship are older, more mature, and 'safer to ship' then what the rest of us hillbilly breeders do. But now they're selling tads. Bravo.


You're 100% right, I just checked on their site and they're no longer there. Good for them. Now if only they would stop selling the rest of their frogs...


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## markpulawski

They know more about Tinctorius than anyone? I wonder if they have ever even been to where they come from or seen them in the wild, since they have not mentioned that the answer must be no. How can you know more about a species than anyone without ever having seen their natural habitat or studied them in situ....so Rick Wascher oh my you've told a lie, now don't do that again.


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## Dendro Dave

I had to laugh at the *MICRONESIA, Blue Microspot Auratus*. Unless this thing swam or floated over on a log from Hawaii I'm fairly confident that this frog is not from Micronesia, and I think *the name is misleading as to it's locality*... because clearly this frog was created in USAfrog's "Lab", in TN and not in nature. 

I'd like to believe it is just an April fools joke: hell I'd like to believe all of this has just been one long April fool's joke. 

Let's see where Micronesia is on the map...










"*This Auratus is called MICRONESIA for the crystal blue waters of the region. A hint of the tropics in every one of these blue microspot frogs. From a terrific line of microspot auratus, these have the rarest blue patterns."* -USAfrog

Rarest of patterns??? ...They look almost if not actually identical to common blue microspot Auratus... Or have the real blue spotted auratus nearly gone extinct in the hobby and no one told me? ...Thank Gawd USAfrog is keeping that rare frog line pure... Oh, wait.. My bad... No their not. (It seems since they are listed as exclusive to USAfrog. So either they bought all the microspots still alive in the hobby and/or mixed some with something else to create a designer frog. How else could they be exclusive? ...Unless they're bending the truth a little... but no: surely they wouldn't do that?!?!?)

Also seems Rick and kids aren't even satisfied with the tropical blue waters around S. America, or the actual localities the frogs are from. They gotta name their frogs after places half way across the globe to suit their tastes, because they aren't good enough otherwise... I guess.


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## Judy S

Ah....nothing like a little comic relief from one of the masters....


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## Blueper

Where do large chain pet stores get their PDFs from,...large-scale breeders/suppliers, like this company?
Is breeding widespread now and pet stores get them from anywhere and everywhere?
Are there just a few large scale, reputable breeders that supply pet stores?
Do pet stores still deal in shady, wild-caught animal transactions?
What's the deal with that theses days?


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## Blueper

My frogs are from Atlantis.
Very rare.
Probably worth millions.


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## Blueper

All kidding aside, giving their frogs cute, non-scientific nicknames (along side their actual scientific name) is one thing. And in my opinion, pretty harmless. Who cares.
But, I gotta say, fabricating stories about where they come from and romanticizing the cause of their colors is a bit odd, to say the least.


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## GandalfTheGrey

Blueper said:


> All kidding aside, giving their frogs cute, non-scientific nicknames (along side their actual scientific name) is one thing. And in my opinion, pretty harmless. Who cares.
> But, I gotta say, fabricating stories about where they come from and romanticizing the cause of their colors is a bit odd, to say the least.


These names are not harmless at all. In fact, they're harmful to the hobby. Giving the frogs these comical names confuses other breeders of their lineage and actual morph. In this hobby we have set, specific names or every morph of dart frog that are used not just in America, but in Germany and the UK and adding these names just adds to the confusion. Last time I checked, Mango was not a recognized variety of tincts, and it doesn't appear Popcorn is either


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## GandalfTheGrey

Blueper said:


> Where do large chain pet stores get their PDFs from,...large-scale breeders/suppliers, like this company?
> Is breeding widespread now and pet stores get them from anywhere and everywhere?
> Are there just a few large scale, reputable breeders that supply pet stores?
> Do pet stores still deal in shady, wild-caught animal transactions?
> What's the deal with that theses days?


Most chain stores don't carry dart frogs. I have yet to see a dart frog at Petsmart or Petco (although I've heard of them selling them.) If they do, they'd probably get them from a wholesale site (like Tesoros de Colombia, a completely sustainable source), or from big sites like you said. They might also get them from excess offspring from Zoos and Museums.


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## Blueper

GandalfTheGrey said:


> These names are not harmless at all. In fact, they're harmful to the hobby. Giving the frogs these comical names confuses other breeders of their lineage and actual morph. In this hobby we have set, specific names or every morph of dart frog that are used not just in America, but in Germany and the UK and adding these names just adds to the confusion. Last time I checked, Mango was not a recognized variety of tincts, and it doesn't appear Popcorn is either


I guess I can kinda see your point.
It probably didn't seem like a big deal to me because I already had an idea that names like "mango" and "ice blue", etc, weren't actually frog names and something they were doing specific to their organization.
But if someone completely new joined this site, or another and asked a question about their new "mango" frogs,.....yeah, I can see a bit of the frustration now.


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## ivas

They are rolling out a Non-live Food (tm) line of frogs that "are fed Non-Live Food! That means no fly culturing and no supplementation ever. Gorgeous & ready for any size enclosure. Comes with feeding dish & one (1) month of our perfectly formulated USA Frog SAFE™ Dart Frog foods."

Has anyone ever heard of this??? My dart frogs seem to need activity to key in on their prey...


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## GandalfTheGrey

That's ludicrous. I've never heard of dart frog thriving on commercial food. Dart frogs and many other amphibians have instincts to eat foods that are alive and moving. Usually in the wild you wouldn't see a dead ant on the forest floor, but you're much more likely to see a live one. Many amphibians will stare to death, even if they're surrounded my masses of dead insects but no live ones. There's almost no way that they're selling frogs actually raised on their 'NLF' diet, they're probably been raised on live foods, and just giving the the customers their frankenfood so the frogs seem 'cooler'... In some way unbeknownst to me


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## toostrange

Gotta wonder if it's not one of those vibrating dishes.


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## carola1155

From their site:


> Comes with feeding dish


Also, I hate the fact that I just actually went to their website. Makes me sick every time I read the garbage they post. Their page about the Global Pet Expo is pathetic.


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## Vinegaroonie

Check their Hybrid Proof I and II pages... They've admitted now to crossing morphs.

"we have proven, without a doubt, those three frogs are reproducible in the exact appearance by breeding two different looking parent Tinctorius—two different populations. "

Really? I knew it was happening, but now they're saying it out loud...

EDIT: Found another tidbit:

"For example, there are over 30 common variations of Tinctorius, and USA Frog has over 50—many of them only available from USA Frog."

So they have 20 hybrid variations of Tinctorius? Or have they gone out into the rainforest and discovered new ones?


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## GandalfTheGrey

Well... it seems we have a small victory. I'm not sure if this was on their site before, but they now list the actual morph names after their loony names.


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## GandalfTheGrey

Vinegaroonie said:


> Check their Hybrid Proof I and II pages... They've admitted now to crossing morphs.
> 
> "we have proven, without a doubt, those three frogs are reproducible in the exact appearance by breeding two different looking parent Tinctorius—two different populations. "
> 
> Really? I knew it was happening, but now they're saying it out loud...
> 
> EDIT: Found another tidbit:
> 
> "For example, there are over 30 common variations of Tinctorius, and USA Frog has over 50—many of them only available from USA Frog."
> 
> So they have 20 hybrid variations of Tinctorius? Or have they gone out into the rainforest and discovered new ones?


I think we all know that it's the first option with the Tincts... Seems like they'll start making an Indominus Frog now


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## brendan0923

ivas said:


> They are rolling out a Non-live Food (tm) line of frogs that "are fed Non-Live Food! That means no fly culturing and no supplementation ever. Gorgeous & ready for any size enclosure. Comes with feeding dish & one (1) month of our perfectly formulated USA Frog SAFE Dart Frog foods."
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever heard of this??? My dart frogs seem to need activity to key in on their prey...




This in particular is a very dangerous piece of misinformation to propagate. I am unable to access their website at the moment, however I have never heard of a carnivorous poison dart frog that does not eat live food and I highly doubt that they produced a species that does not eat live food. Making people think that they can feed their carnivorous frog dead/non-live food could potentially cause the deaths of those frogs due to this piece of misinformation being used to sell their frogs. In my opinion, there is no need to use a vibrating dish or whatever tactic they are using when you can simply feed them live bugs with supplementation.


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## Vinegaroonie

brendan0923 said:


> This in particular is a very dangerous piece of misinformation to propagate. I am unable to access their website at the moment, however I have never heard of a carnivorous poison dart frog that does not eat live food and I highly doubt that they produced a species that does not eat live food. Making people think that they can feed their carnivorous frog dead/non-live food could potentially cause the deaths of those frogs due to this piece of misinformation being used to sell their frogs. In my opinion, there is no need to use a vibrating dish or whatever tactic they are using when you can simply feed them live bugs with supplementation.


They need motion to trigger a feeding response... I honestly don't know how this could ever work. A vibrating dish wouldn't work either. I think they can tell the difference between a live insect and a fake, especially if it's only vibrating. This also further distances our captive frogs from their wild counterparts. A lot of this hobby is keeping conditions as close to nature as possible, and I'd wonder if the frogs behavior would change over time because of a lack of "hunting" behavior. Also, I'd hate to see a plastic food dish or whatever they're making inside a naturalistic viv...


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## Vinegaroonie

Adding to the above post, I've kept crested geckos on three different occasions (I had to give away two before I moved and the other has since passed). One was fed only the powdered diet, and the two others I fed both powdered and live. Not only were the ones fed live insects exponentially more active, they also lived a year longer. This could just be a coincidence, but I suspect that it was just better for them to have live food. 

Just a thought.


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## thedudeabides

"We allow many of our adult frogs to choose their own mates, and some of them choose mates that look different than they do. Thus, breeding for new colors and patterns is often by the natural choice of the frog."

Are they basically saying they just throw a bunch of morphs together and see what comes out, that is crazy!


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## jarteta97

Next thing you know, they'll be calling us "racist" for not allowing our frogs to pick whatever frog they want to breed with, regardless of color


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## Sniggz

This usa company is crazy


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## Enlightened Rogue

MarcusJay said:


> This usa company is crazy


5 simple words sum up 2 years of insanity...


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## Vinegaroonie

"This is a very special category of REBEL™ tinctorius frogs that are only available from USA Frog. The colors, patterns, and size of the frogs here are unmatched anywhere. These are truly unique & just plain awesome looking—always very active & bold."

It's confirmed now... They are selling tinc morph crosses. And the name? Rebel. Another thinly-veiled jab at the hobby. They all look pretty much the same, too.

I have to admit, though; the surfside and honeybee look kind of cool. Just a little.

-Niko


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## Holdway

Aren't the surfsides and the honey bee both just another one of their cross breeds?


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## Vinegaroonie

Holdway said:


> Aren't the surfsides and the honey bee both just another one of their cross breeds?


Yeah, that's why I reluctantly said they're kinda cool. Not condoning hybrids or anything though lol. It's probably the one crossbreed that looks different from other morphs though.


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## edwardsatc

Vinegaroonie said:


> It's confirmed now... They are selling tinc morph crosses. And the name? Rebel. Another thinly-veiled jab at the hobby. They all look pretty much the same, too.
> 
> -Niko


It's been confirmed for a long time. That's what started these threads ... 

Sometimes they're quite open about it and at others times seemingly covert, but there has been no doubt that they've always been producing and selling crosses.


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## Vinegaroonie

edwardsatc said:


> It's been confirmed for a long time. That's what started these threads ...
> 
> Sometimes they're quite open about it and at others times seemingly covert, but there has been no doubt that they've always been producing and selling crosses.


What I meant is that they are labeling pics of hybrids as hybrids. Unless they've done that before...


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## Vinegaroonie

This thread's been dead for a while. I just found this page on their site...

http://designerfrogs.usafrog.com

The martyr act is ridiculous. They are not champions of the rainforest. Additionally, they have added a "hybrids" page. I honestly can't believe how they're still operating.

-Niko


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rusty_Shackleford

I just looked at the page you posted and I'm even more disgusted with these people. Cut the tumor out, get rid of the cancer in our hobby.


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## Fingolfin

Found this in the page you posted as well. Thought it might be a good idea to put it on here too... lol









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## Boondoggle

It's a call to action to the "DESIGNER Frog Hobby"!!! The jig is up, boys. They know we're just amphibian racists pulling the strings in the massive Non-poison dart frog conspiracy. Say goodbye to all your mountains of cash, comrades, our day of reckoning has finally come. Curse you frog Messiah. We would have gotten away with it to, if it wasn't for you kids.

After reading as much of the site as I could, all I can say is...Jeez, a manic episode is a hell of a thing to witness. That thing reads like a meth fueled manifesto.

In the past we've addressed all these points but you know what would save a lot of time? I think someone should come up with a Bull$hit app/site. I don't think it would be impossible. You could cut and paste someone's presentation and it would use an algorithm to spot common intellectually dishonest debate tactics (band-wagoning, emotional appeal, strawman, making themselves look authoritative but not really addressing the point, etc) and then give the site a BS rating. Just because someone uses fallacious reasoning doesn't mean they are wrong, but if a site had like an 80% BS rating, I think you could safely make some assumptions.

I think this one would score over 90%.


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## Vinegaroonie

Boondoggle said:


> It's a call to action to the "DESIGNER Frog Hobby"!!! The jig is up, boys. They know we're just amphibian racists pulling the strings in the massive Non-poison dart frog conspiracy. Say goodbye to all your mountains of cash, comrades, our day of reckoning has finally come. Curse you frog Messiah. We would have gotten away with it to, if it wasn't for you kids.
> 
> After reading as much of the site as I could, all I can say is...Jeez, a manic episode is a hell of a thing to witness. That thing reads like a meth fueled manifesto.
> 
> In the past we've addressed all these points but you know what would save a lot of time? I think someone should come up with a Bull$hit app/site. I don't think it would be impossible. You could cut and paste someone's presentation and it would use an algorithm to spot common intellectually dishonest debate tactics (band-wagoning, emotional appeal, strawman, making themselves look authoritative but not really addressing the point, etc) and then give the site a BS rating. Just because someone uses fallacious reasoning doesn't mean they are wrong, but if a site had like an 80% BS rating, I think you could safely make some assumptions.
> 
> I think this one would score over 90%.


I've never laughed so hard at a forum post. Well done 

Seriously, though. They're acting like we're all money-laundering frog killers who are trying to destroy the amphibian hobby when that is literally the definition of their business. I'm having trouble processing how someone could put up so much BS and still make a living out of it...

We're bound to have some IT experts on here. I can't imagine it would be too difficult, but I don't know if anyone would do it for free.. 

-Niko


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Fingolfin said:


> Found this in the page you posted as well. Thought it might be a good idea to put it on here too... lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


If you read this page all the way through there really is some good humour here. My favorite parts of this comedic genius includes "hobby" dart frogs will try and kill each other, their frogs are parasite free because they live in a closed system. Really funny stuff. So funny it makes you want to cry. 

Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk


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## Fingolfin

Lol 

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## Dendro Dave

From USA frog...

*"11. Naturally more healthy due to captive breeding.
Captive Bred animals do not have the same health risks as imports such as parasite/protozoan loads or bacterial and fungal infections. By buying captive bred animals you know the age of your pet and have the sense of satisfaction knowing you are getting the healthiest exotic pet available."*

I in my opinion this qualifies as yet another *outright lie*... Parasites, viruses, fungi and bacteria can come in on plants and hardscape materials, feeder insects or from the human keepers hands... and many if not most captive bred frogs have some minimal load that their immune system can cope with fine. Who's to say the fungus gnat from outside that got into your house then into your viv didn't have something? Perfect example in my opinion of their willingness to be dishonest, misrepresent the facts, and/or are dangerously ignorant and/or unethical... Thus not qualified to operate a dart frog business, in my opinion.
*
Where is the testing to back up this claim? ...Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.*

*"Demand Captive Bred Frogs! Say "NO" to Dart Frog Hobby Frogs!
Home" ....and "Captive Bred vs. Dart Frog Hobby frogs

All breeders and sellers of captive bred frogs that were not first imported from the jungle (“Captive Bred”) have been at odds with the hardcore Dart Frog Hobby (the “Dart Frog Hobby”) for some time. While the science, import/export laws, public policy, and common sense are clearly on the Captive Bred side and against the Dart Frog Hobby, the substance of the discord is deeply rooted in what it really means to embrace wild frog preservation and rain forest habitat conservation.

For example, most live dart frog collectors within the Dart Frog Hobby like to belong to conservation organizations for the show of it. Their own words and actions in support of continually capturing wild rain forest frogs to meet their pet demand, however, reveals their true hypocritical heart and covetous intentions.

Perhaps worse is the totalitarian views (and demands of conformity) held by the Dart Frog Hobby when it comes to personal pet ownership. Most of those are driven by economic reasons to sell products, but many of the misinformed, or blind followers as zealots don’t even see it.

Here is a chart of some of the specific differences between the Captive Bred dart frogger and the hardcore Dart Frog Hobby with regard to their respective frogs and cultures."*
*
Please explain to me where these frogs that didn't have their roots in the wild come from? Immaculate conception? ...Clones from DNA samples? *...Us Hardcore frog hobby people keep a lot of captive bred frogs. In fact many if not most of the frogs regularly traded and sold on here are captive bred with the exception of the pumilio imports, tesoros frogs, and some imports of tincs, auratus, and luecs and maybe a few others over the years. All frogs in the hobby either came from the wild and were then captive bred to increase stock, or they came from an institution and somewhere along the lines those frogs or their parents, or great grand parents came from the wild.

We demand conformity? Ok sure... We demand people practice good husbandry, and conduct themselves with some respect for other people in this hobby, and refrain from lying *(Remember USAfrog's words- "we will not mix species or varieties")*. Maybe they don't mix species, *but what the hell is a "variety" then if not a color morph and/or specific population locale?* ...A subspecies? No can't be because from their own words in past website ramblings there are no recognized subspecies of dart frogs.

As for their infographic....

In my opinion much of it is *BS*, and full of misrepresentations/oversimplifications of our viewpoint. Some of it is just impossible to know like "will a frog attempt to kill another frog" or if there will be aggression between two females... You can't know that till they are paired, unless they are claiming to have bred aggression out of the frogs and then what other traits were bred out as a byproduct? None? ...Where is is the data that supports these claims? We try to present people with as many reports and facts as possible, and often that data suggests that doing certain things in certain cases is not the best husbandry... *But it seems to me USAfrog is willing to tell you what you wanna hear if it will help them sell a frog.* Rick seems to me well versed in the practices of the stereotypical shady/sleazy used car salesman... and it seems he isn't afraid to double down on the BS whenever the opportunity presents itself. 

We don't claim that all females will be aggressive to each other. This is a broad generalization and misrepresentation of our viewpoint and this info graphic has several others just like it... They reword our position to suit their agenda (such as the claim we say to kill hybrid or cross morph frogs: in my experience most of us say "keep em/enjoy them... Just don't keep making them and be sure to be honest about what they are if you give/sell/trade em"). *They phrase everything carefully so that on face value unless you've been here for the discussion and already know the truth of our position it will seem like theirs makes more sense as long as you don't know or don't believe all the discussed implications designer frogs can have for our hobby.*

And ultimately, the page is full of extraordinary claims made by people that who according to the evidence compiled and the consensus in this thread to date: seem to have lied on more then one occasion. *HOW CAN YOU REASONABLY TRUST THESE PEOPLE TO SELL YOU ANYTHING?*

I could pick their BS a apart even more but most of that has been done by others or I throughout the history of this thread, (including the lies we seem to have caught them in). Bottom line in my opinion...

*It seems these people will say anything they think they might be able to get away with (and then some!) to sell you a frog.*

Do yourself a favor and read up on these guys if you haven't yet. Don't take my word on them... Their shenanigans are chronicled here by not just myself but many others (Hobby veterans, scientists, people that work at zoos/aquariums, and just a lot of smart people with decent ethics). Look at the few people who have spoken up during the course of this thread to defend USAfrog... Most of them couldn't defend their actions, just that we were being to mean to them, or blowing it out of proportion. Why were we mean? ...Because we want to see beginners get off to a good start and not fall victim to lies, misinformation, or dangerous ignorance from people who apparently it seems will say anything to you to sell a frog.
*
Turn your BS detector on before you listen to these people or buy from them... If it isn't ringing so loud it makes your ears bleed then it's probably because you went instantly deaf from it... Or it's broke!!!.*


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## Vinegaroonie

Taken from their "Our Pricing" page...

"None of our frogs are wild caught, and never pose any threat whatsoever to any ecosystem or environment."

Seriously? I can think of numerous (albeit unlikely) ways these frogs could impact the environment. Introducing pathogens from insects or even the frogs into the wild from disposed waste comes to mind, as does introducing invasive food insects or even dart frogs (although this could only really happen in florida or hawaii). Making claims like this is something that could land them in serious trouble if a novel pathogen were to be created by their business. 

The fact that they say "100% American" and all that also makes me irritated. It's like they're trying to erase the wild origins of these frogs. Also, denoting the use of "poison" in the name to make us look bad is ridiculous. If the only reason people don't want to keep dart frogs is because they have "poison" in their name, then a single google search can change their mind. If they're too lazy to do that kind of light searching, they shouldn't be keeping pets at all.

To me it seems like they're trying to take all the science and thinking out of the hobby to grow their customer base, and that won't work. This hobby requires at least a small amount of knowledge on the biology of these frogs, a fair amount of dedication, and any amount of passion for the rainforest, yet I feel that usafrog customers generally won't have that. This hobby isn't about the frogs looking "cool". It's about appreciating the nature of these animals and keeping them in the best conditions possible. 

End rant. 

Sometimes I feel it's redundant to keep bringing up these topics. Then I look at their website and a whole plethora of rant topics rush to my head and I remember who we're dealing with.

-Niko




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dendro Dave

Well in my opinion if they're gonna keep throwing up more BS, and misrepresenting us then it's worth picking them apart at every turn. Keeps up awareness too, which I think is important. Reminds people the threat is still out there, and informs new people about the problem. 

Frankly I like it when Rick updates the site because that guy is in my opinion USAfrog's own worst enemy. He writes the BS then steps in it, and it's so easy to call them out time and time again because the BS sounds like BS... and they just can't control themselves.

But it is frustrating to see the lengths they'll go to just to sell a frog. I definitely get feeling the need to speak out; obviously I feel the same need. 

I also really feel for the people who's entry into the hobby is through USAfrog, and for the people who bought frogs from them before the drama blew up, and are now stuck with what many consider tainted animals. Not to mention the questionable husbandry advice and pseudoscience they've dished out.

I haven't been around the forum much lately, nor I have I been keeping up with the facebook groups the last couple months, but as far as I know USAfrog is still frog public enemy number 1... and they've earned that top spot in my opinion.

Honestly one of the most frustrating things about all this in my book is wondering how they are still in business when the BS is so obvious and they've been called out on it across the internet, and probably in real life. 

I don't know how anyone can read their site and not have their BS detector go nuts... If it was well disguised BS, It would be semi understandable but wow it's just so obvious. 

But snake oil still sells I guess


----------



## cam7

I know I don't post much on this forum but I feel like this needs to be said so no one new to the hobby is temped to get their frogs and believe the information from USA frogs like I almost did. I'm still learning about the dart frog hoby itself, but nevertheless one thing I do know is the everything stated on USA Dart frog/ dart frog warehouse (or whatever it's now called) is contradicting everything that I've learned about the hobby. When I first decided I wanted to get into this hobby I was drawn to USA frogs. Their frogs were cheap, they had names I could read, they stated that their frogs could be mixed and they stated that the frogs care would be super easy to care for and somehow everything would just turn into rainbows and unicorns! But later after joining this forum my stance on USA Frogs changed. I learned that most of their information wasn't the best to say the least. And if I followed this information my future frogs would not thrive. Here are a few of the worst things I found wrong with this company and reasons for newbees not to go with USA frogs.

Their most recent post states that the now are happy to sell hybrids. And they now are even selling their hybrids labeled as "identical to wild tinctorius." What are they trying to do, destroy the pure lines that many breeders work so hard to keep pure? They also say that they have begun to selectively breed leucomelas, in order to make a winged morph. They say they are doing this in order to " study symmetry and pattern" of dart frogs. I have always thought that this was very unethical and made weak frogs. I don't know why they would do this when luecs are already beautiful in their natural state.  I am very confused.

They also have put up a claim stating "USA Frog has one of, if not the, largest captive bred population of these colorful pet frogs anywhere in the world." I would love to see their breeding facilities but I doubt this is true. From seeing pictures of Josh's and Sports_Docs' and many others amazing collections I doubt this could be true. 

I don't know why they would display all of this false information on their website. If they would just think about what the dart frog community is telling them maybe they would understand and fix their problems. If they did I believe they could possibly have a very successful breeding program and maybe even gain support from the dart frog community.

So what I'm trying to say is that people that are new to the hobby, including myself, read up on this forum and don't believe everything that your told. Learn from successful hobbyists and once you think your ready for frogs, read some more.
Thanks


----------



## Vinegaroonie

cam7 said:


> I know I don't post much on this forum but I feel like this needs to be said so no one new to the hobby is temped to get their frogs and believe the information from USA frogs like I almost did. I'm still learning about the dart frog hoby itself, but nevertheless one thing I do know is the everything stated on USA Dart frog/ dart frog warehouse (or whatever it's now called) is contradicting everything that I've learned about the hobby. When I first decided I wanted to get into this hobby I was drawn to USA frogs. Their frogs were cheap, they had names I could read, they stated that their frogs could be mixed and they stated that the frogs care would be super easy to care for and somehow everything would just turn into rainbows and unicorns! But later after joining this forum my stance on USA Frogs changed. I learned that most of their information wasn't the best to say the least. And if I followed this information my future frogs would not thrive. Here are a few of the worst things I found wrong with this company and reasons for newbees not to go with USA frogs.
> 
> Their most recent post states that the now are happy to sell hybrids. And they now are even selling their hybrids labeled as "identical to wild tinctorius." What are they trying to do, destroy the pure lines that many breeders work so hard to keep pure? They also say that they have begun to selectively breed leucomelas, in order to make a winged morph. They say they are doing this in order to " study symmetry and pattern" of dart frogs. I have always thought that this was very unethical and made weak frogs. I don't know why they would do this when luecs are already beautiful in their natural state.  I am very confused.
> 
> They also have put up a claim stating "USA Frog has one of, if not the, largest captive bred population of these colorful pet frogs anywhere in the world." I would love to see their breeding facilities but I doubt this is true. From seeing pictures of Josh's and Sports_Docs' and many others amazing collections I doubt this could be true.
> 
> I don't know why they would display all of this false information on their website. If they would just think about what the dart frog community is telling them maybe they would understand and fix their problems. If they did I believe they could possibly have a very successful breeding program and maybe even gain support from the dart frog community.
> 
> So what I'm trying to say is that people that are new to the hobby, including myself, read up on this forum and don't believe everything that your told. Learn from successful hobbyists and once you think your ready for frogs, read some more.
> Thanks




Good post. I would actually believe their claim of having the largest collection of frogs as it's clear they aren't concerned with ethics and therefore probably severely overcrowd (it even says on their housing page that you can keep 10 tincs in a 60 gallon...)

When they first started out, many people on this forum tried to constructively steer them away from their sleazy business practices, but nothing worked. It's ultimately this refusal to take advice that lead to their exile from the hobby. If they had taken our advice and used it, they would be in a much better state than they are today.

Moral of the story; research, research, research, and when you think you're an expert, research some more. Never turn down advice from anyone more experienced than you. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mark c

Dendro Dave said:


> But snake oil still sells I guess


Of course snake oil still sells, haven't you been watching the election coverage?



Vinegaroonie said:


> Moral of the story; research, research, research, and when you think you're an expert, research some more. Never turn down advice from anyone more experienced than you.


Or if you aren't into doing research or advice taking, then at least don't make up facts and claim to be an authority in the face of those who know better.

Oh, wait are we still talking about the elections?


----------



## Boondoggle

Vinegaroonie said:


> Good post. I would actually believe their claim of having the largest collection of frogs as it's clear they aren't concerned with ethics and therefore probably severely overcrowd (it even says on their housing page that you can keep 10 tincs in a 60 gallon...)


Yeah, it could be true, although how could they possibly even know? It's not like other breeders would let them within a block of their facilities. 

Of course there's also the small detail that they've been making that claim from the beginning.


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## RandomUser

When I began researching dart frogs after years of keeping reptiles and arachnids, one of the first companies I found was these guys. After 5 minutes on their site I knew they were morons. They just seem to appease to people who are to lazy to do any kind of research by telling them how "easy" and apparently superior their frogs are. One of the things that has kept me so interested in this hobby is the amount of people devoted in maintaining healthy genetics, husbandry, and purity of locales even. So many groups of reptiles (ball pythons, leopard geckos, crested geckos, I could do this for days) are riddled with line breeding and in-breeding it's absurd. These people need to be stopped before they ruin the dart frog hobby as well. The only solution I see is to mount a lawsuit for all of their ridiculous claims and get them fined and shut down for false advertisement.


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## Dendro Dave

cam7 said:


> I know I don't post much on this forum but I feel like this needs to be said so no one new to the hobby is temped to get their frogs and believe the information from USA frogs like I almost did.....


Welcome to the hobby Cam7... You seem to pretty much be the perfect example of why this thread exists, and why it needs to for as long as USAfrog exists and conduct themselves in the way that they do.

I know a lot of people have been turned off by the drama, and maybe some even left the forum all together regardless of which side they were on, but in my opinion if 60 pages of discussion (and yes drama) saved you from getting off to rocky or horrible start in the hobby then it has been worth it.

I don't know you might go on to be the next frog god, or found some kinda great project like tesoros, or maybe you'll just drag some other good people into the hobby or maybe we'll never hear from you again, but you'll at least have gotten something out of the hobby...

I'm glad this has helped you at least, and we have a few other similar reports so that's good too, and good but also kinda sadly I'm sure we'll continue to get other such reports of near misses with USAfrog in the future.

We all start this hobby with some level of ignorance and I see no shame in that, but what I do find shameful is USAfrog's willingness to target such people. It's also kinda disappointing to think of the people that will stick with USAfrog because they choose to remain ignorant, and/or because they ultimately can't admit to themselves they made an error in judgement, (Which arguably are both shameful).

The sad fact (at least it's a fact in my opinion) is that at this point a lot of USAfrogs motivation for what they've done/said and continue to do is rooted in Rick's bruised ego.

We dared to question his master plan for the hobby and his ways of implementing it and it pissed him off. 

I mean look how he reacted to Lotters coming out and voicing his opinion about how USAfrog had used his work... It was like Rick had been betrayed by his own personal frog jesus and Rick pretty much went to war over it... There was mud, and it was slug at Lotters for daring to oppose Ricks interpretation of the man's own work.

Rick acts as if we've stopped them from exercising their personal freedom, or other hobbyists from exercising theirs, but they're all free to create, keep, buy/sell/trade their designer frogs... But we are under no obligation to absolve them from all the consequences of their actions, nor to sit here in silence which ultimately amounts to tacit approval. 

IF you rock the boat and people don't like the ride... expect to fall in the water, maybe get pushed in, and probably left to be the victim of your own hubris. 

Sometimes it's worth it. Rocking the boat isn't always a bad thing if done in the right way, for the right reasons... I think it's pretty clear at this point that USAfrog failed on both accounts and this poop storm they've brought upon themselves is a result of those failures, their egos, and ultimately their own hubris.

We're free to rail against USAfrog as USAfrog is to rail against us... Ultimately we'll all be judged in the court of public opinion (we seem to be winning!).

Hey does anyone remember when the Iraqi military set the Kuwaiti oil fields on fire? ...It seemed to be more out of anger, frustration, pettiness and of course spite, then useful military strategy I thought... I think it's the same with USAfrog at this point. 

They've burned most of their bridges in the hobby at this point so why not double down on the designer frog stuff, sleazy tactics and general BS and scorch the remaining earth on their way out??? ...and maybe make a buck in the process???

It would be nice if they finally took an objective step back and realized the harm they've done, are doing, and will do if they continue to operate like they have been... but ultimately I don't think the egos in play over there will ever swallow their pride and just take the high road and quit or at least try to run a respectful frog business that isn't at odds with community standards and preys on the new and ignorant, or the greedy just to stay in business. Of course I'm sure they blame us for their problems, instead of taking responsibility for bringing it upon themselves.

They seem determined to eek out a living pandering to the least informed or the greedy resellers who just wanna make a buck of a cheap source of frogs. But I think ultimately USAfrog will die a martyr for their ego on the designer frog alter. I think perhaps the only real questions left are: how long will that take? ...and how much damage will they do in the mean time?


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## Dendro Dave

mark c said:


> Of course snake oil still sells, haven't you been watching the election coverage?


Gawd no... If I ever get that desperate for something to watch I'll just pull up that youtube video of Hypno Toad ...and let my brain cells slowly simmer till I'm dead 

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AOfbnGkuGc)



Boondoggle said:


> Yeah, it could be true, although how could they possibly even know? It's not like other breeders would let them within a block of their facilities.
> 
> Of course there's also the small detail that they've been making that claim from the beginning.


It's frustrating how willing they are to make such bold claims with little to no evidence. I personally think it speaks to their willingness to prey on the uninformed and generally be "morally flexible" when it comes to making a few dollars.

On the other hand...

Gotta love it when they make such claims then turn around and prove they were false with out us really having to lift a finger... Like that whole *"We won't mix species or varieties"* claim. Or all that bastardized stuff based on Lotter's work only to get it so wrong they provoked the guy into coming out and setting the record straight. 

I in no means wished any trouble for Lotters, but the petty mudslinging they engaged in when their (arguably plagiarized) hero turned on them didn't make their cause any more sympathetic.

...Silly rabbits


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## Dendro Dave

Vinegaroonie said:


> Taken from their "Our Pricing" page...
> 
> "None of our frogs are wild caught, and never pose any threat whatsoever to any ecosystem or environment."
> 
> Seriously? I can think of numerous (albeit unlikely) ways these frogs could impact the environment. Introducing pathogens from insects or even the frogs into the wild from disposed waste comes to mind, as does introducing invasive food insects or even dart frogs (although this could only really happen in florida or hawaii). Making claims like this is something that could land them in serious trouble if a novel pathogen were to be created by their business.
> 
> The fact that they say "100% American" and all that also makes me irritated. It's like they're trying to erase the wild origins of these frogs. Also, denoting the use of "poison" in the name to make us look bad is ridiculous. If the only reason people don't want to keep dart frogs is because they have "poison" in their name, then a single google search can change their mind. If they're too lazy to do that kind of light searching, they shouldn't be keeping pets at all.
> 
> To me it seems like they're trying to take all the science and thinking out of the hobby to grow their customer base, and that won't work. This hobby requires at least a small amount of knowledge on the biology of these frogs, a fair amount of dedication, and any amount of passion for the rainforest, yet I feel that usafrog customers generally won't have that. This hobby isn't about the frogs looking "cool". It's about appreciating the nature of these animals and keeping them in the best conditions possible.
> 
> End rant.
> 
> Sometimes I feel it's redundant to keep bringing up these topics. Then I look at their website and a whole plethora of rant topics rush to my head and I remember who we're dealing with.
> 
> -Niko
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, I feel ya... and ya it is redundant (usefully so I think) 

*Begin rant...*

I think they want the frog hobby to be like the mainstream aquarium hobby... Where any uninformed person can walk into wal-mart and buy a bunch of fish, get some info that may or may not be good: and so what if more then 50% of the people that walk out of that store end up with dead fish within a month. They pimped their philosophy... and made their money.

I'm all for making the hobby more accessible to the masses, and educating them about the animals and their husbandry, and trying to make that manageable for the average person... but there is a line that if you cross puts the animals lives in jeopardy and the people at risk of bitter disappointment, (including kids... *THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!*).

And it seems to me USAfrog is all to willing to cross that line. They seem all to willing to sugar coat the facts, misrepresent them if not get them outright wrong: either out of ignorance or greed... I don't know, but either way it's equally a danger to the animal and to their customer. I just don't get how they could claim to be ethical, moral, or hell even patriotic yet seem to be so comfortable with the methods they employ.

You know I'm sorry: if you want frogs and don't have access to a reliable source of food and crap load of money to spend on it... you gotta learn to culture fruit flies or raise pinhead crickets reliably.

You can be unlucky or unwise and get the wrong sex ratios with the wrong frogs and there will be aggression, and in rare instances a frog will stress another frog to death or out right kill it by drowning it (very rare, but possible).

You can overpopulate a viv ultimately leading to more deaths then you might have otherwise had. 

You can construct a crappy vivarium that doesn't meet the frogs needs and you can fail in their husbandry if you don't do certain things right and consistently.

A "SAFE" frog could conceivably cause an allergic reaction in a person. It could have a pathogen or pick one up later and pass that on to other animals or people.

*And Yes: extraordinary claims of the type that USAfrog makes on a regular basis... require extraordinary proof if you don't wanna be called out as B.S. artists* 

Bla bla bla, etc..etc...

We're not trying to be fear mongers here, but the better informed people are about the actual truth, not just mine, nor yours, or USAfrog's... but the Truth that is derived from the experts and the consensus of the cumulative experience of the hobby community: then the better off the frogs and the people will be.

You know I someday hope to have some frogs to sell... but I'm not going to tell you they are "SAFE" to the degree that USAfrog will, that there isn't a bit of a learning curve, or that you can throw 20 of them in a 30 gallon and expect optimal results, and I'm not going to tell you that I won't mix species or varieties of frogs and they'll not be stressed by frogs of different colors/types that they might not now how to interact with each other in non stressful ways, and then a few months later unveil my designer frog line or knowingly lie to you about my plants or products, then expect you to trust me as I sell designer frogs next to normal ones... 

I'm also not going to drag a respected scientist's name through the mud when he speaks out about how I misrepresented his work in an attempt to market my frogs, and lastly I'm not going to try to convince you of a grand conspiracy of shadowy frog overlords to force wild frogs on you and destroy the environment, and prop myself up as some noble frog messiah who has come to save you from all the other froggers trying to screw you out of your designer frogs by pointing out the negative implications the practice could have for the hobby, or the questionable business tactics used by I the frog messiah!!! 

*Screw the designer frog debate for a moment.... you should expect the very least from anyone who ever tries to sell you a frog... or anything else for that matter.

USAfrogs in my opinion should set higher standards for themselves (by higher, I mean minimal )

...And any potential buyer should too. 
*


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## Judy S

whew........thought that this thread was dead...keep the lightbulb on....


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## Boondoggle

Dendro Dave said:


> ...Or all that bastardized stuff based on Lotter's work only to get it so wrong they provoked the guy into coming out and setting the record straight.


LOTTERS!!! Oh man, I forgot about the whole Lotters incident! That was HI-LARIOUS. Anybody not familiar with that should search this thread for the details. It's worth it and DFW's response to that whole thing really tells you everything you need to know about just how malleable and conditional their ethics are.


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## Vinegaroonie

Boondoggle said:


> LOTTERS!!! Oh man, I forgot about the whole Lotters incident! That was HI-LARIOUS. Anybody not familiar with that should search this thread for the details. It's worth it and DFW's response to that whole thing really tells you everything you need to know about just how malleable and conditional their ethics are.




Could anyone find it for me?  I dont have time to comb through 100+ pages of this.

-Niko


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Boondoggle

Vinegaroonie said:


> Could anyone find it for me?  I dont have time to comb through 100+ pages of this.
> 
> -Niko
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/232306-usa-frogs-dartfrog-warehouse-lotters.html

It's fairly recent-ish, but long story short, Rick at DFW kept quoting Lotter's authoritative publication "Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry" (out of context) as justification for not acknowledging geographical differences in tincs as having any significance whatsoever. A tinc was a tinc was a tinc as far as Rick was concerned and they should all be bred together, and whatever came out of it already existed in nature anyways, and what did it matter because they were just frogs. We argued with him over his interpretation of the text and he was typically blustery and bombastic, but confidently unshakable. He painted himself as a "scientist" that was being persecuted by "the hobby" and that "the experts" were in full agreement with him. Then, in a move only Zookeeper Doug saw coming, Lotters himself wrote A LETTER and said that his research was being misapplied by Rick and that he found Ricks business model "disgusting" and a complete misapplication. Oh, man, that just feels good to type that.

Then Rick (who had praised Lotters book as gospel) did his best to try and discredit Lotter and acted as if Lotter had flip-flopped and had betrayed Rick...WHICH WAS ALL ONLY BECAUSE OF RICK'S TWISTED INTERPRETATION IN THE FIRST PLACE. It was beautiful. 

Anyways, those are the cliff notes. Good times.


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## srrrio

I was curious about this link I found on their homepage: Ship Your Pets and this what I found: 



_Terms & Conditions

The terms, conditions, restrictions, disclaimers, legal requirements, and all the other SAME stuff requiring honest and lawful use as reported on ShipYourReptiles.com, and other pet shipping resources, and a SAVINGS OF AT LEAST 15% OFF their regular Priority and Standard FedEx Overnight Shipping rates!

That's it!
Please allow up to 12 hours for us to e-mail you your shipping label image after we receive your payment and shipping information details. Sure, we know the other guys let you print their label immediately, and we will too when the time comes, but a fast print system discourages price comparison shopping. We encourage it! 

So please use their online quote if they have one, and then come back here to buy and save.

We think a 15% minimum savings is worth the extra time. Also, we can advance print your label for the future day you desire. In this way, there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever for immediate label delivery. 
Some might say, "hey, you can't do that!" Actually, we can. 

In fact, this service is for you the consumer. We know the margins some are charging, and frankly, if you knew you might be as miffed as we are. A fair and reasonable profit is always expected in business, but overcharging is unfair. 

ShipYourPets HELPS the smaller hobby breeder sell their quality pets at a competitive price!
The ShipYourPets business is NOT affiliated, related, associated, or connected to USA Frog, US Dart Frog, ShipYourReptiles, or any other shipping resource company. ShipYourPets is a stand alone business.
_


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## PFG

This may have been posted already, but has anyone read their 'Tadpole Buyback' page? They'll buy all the tadpoles you produce with their mixed localities - just as long as you don't mix their mixed frogs further when breeding. 



USAFrog said:


> If you are a USA Frog pet frog owner, what do you do if your frogs breed for you?
> Sell the tadpoles to us!
> 
> This allows you to know right now, up front, we stand behind the quality of the frogs we sell! NO OTHER frog seller out there offers this SAFE AT HOME™ program.
> 
> All tadpole offspring from same variety parents (i.e., male and female parents of the same USA Frog variety) you bought, (or raised from the frogs you bought) from USA Frog have a home if they need one.
> 
> For example, if you breed a male and female MALIBU™, we will buy the tadpoles. Breed a male and female GIANNI™, we will buy the tadpoles. Breed a male and female POPCORN™, we will buy the tadpoles. This is good for ALL USA Frog varieties so long as the male & female parents are the same variety.


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## Dendro Dave

PFG said:


> This may have been posted already, but has anyone read their 'Tadpole Buyback' page? They'll buy all the tadpoles you produce with their mixed localities - just as long as you don't mix their mixed frogs further when breeding.


...Oh the irony! 

That's pretty awesome. They basically tell everyone it's fine to mix and breed mixed morph frogs, and they may even be fine with keeping different species together (I forget)... But they don't wanna buy your designer frogs!!!


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## Dendro Dave

srrrio said:


> I was curious about this link I found on their homepage: Ship Your Pets and this what I found:
> 
> 
> 
> _Terms & Conditions
> 
> The terms, conditions, restrictions, disclaimers, legal requirements, and all the other SAME stuff requiring honest and lawful use as reported on ShipYourReptiles.com, and other pet shipping resources, and a SAVINGS OF AT LEAST 15% OFF their regular Priority and Standard FedEx Overnight Shipping rates!
> 
> That's it!
> Please allow up to 12 hours for us to e-mail you your shipping label image after we receive your payment and shipping information details. Sure, we know the other guys let you print their label immediately, and we will too when the time comes, but a fast print system discourages price comparison shopping. We encourage it!
> 
> So please use their online quote if they have one, and then come back here to buy and save.
> 
> We think a 15% minimum savings is worth the extra time. Also, we can advance print your label for the future day you desire. In this way, there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever for immediate label delivery.
> Some might say, "hey, you can't do that!" Actually, we can.
> 
> In fact, this service is for you the consumer. We know the margins some are charging, and frankly, if you knew you might be as miffed as we are. A fair and reasonable profit is always expected in business, but overcharging is unfair.
> 
> ShipYourPets HELPS the smaller hobby breeder sell their quality pets at a competitive price!
> The ShipYourPets business is NOT affiliated, related, associated, or connected to USA Frog, US Dart Frog, ShipYourReptiles, or any other shipping resource company. ShipYourPets is a stand alone business.
> _


Ya I don't know about this, but they say...

*"The ShipYourPets business is NOT affiliated, related, associated, or connected to USA Frog, US Dart Frog, ShipYourReptiles, or any other shipping resource company. ShipYourPets is a stand alone business."*

So I have to ask...

1. Who is this business run by if not Rick or his wife and kids?
2. I see no info about who runs the business... Why hide it?

And...

3. If it is ran by the same people who run USAfrog and especially if the shipping is done from the same business account usafrog uses.... Then how can they possibly claim the stuff in that quote to be true?

My guess is that it is run by the same people... and I'd bet that all they are doing is leveraging their USAfrog shipping accounts discount to ship your animals... or they set up a separate account that gets a discount over what joe blow would pay.

...And that's fine, except if it is the same people running it they should admit it. In fact either way there should be some info on who owns and operates the company.

As far as I can tell there is no address or phone number given for the business either. And the only way to contact them I see, is through their form.

RED FLAGS?...

1. No names of the owners.
2. No address for the business or owners
3. No phone number for them either
4. To lazy to type up their own _complete_ TOS... Instead you get this: *"SAME stuff requiring honest and lawful use as reported on ShipYourReptiles.com..."*
5. I don't see them offering any packing products or info resources to help insure safe delivery. It seems they just let you piggy back on their account to get the discount and other then that you are own your own 

.
..
...

Well that inspires me with confidence. I know who I"ll call next time I need to ship some animals!!!

....
.....
......

SHIPYOURREPTILES.COM 

Why not since the terms are the same, and I can probably find reviews and not have to worry over what I see as a lot of red flags over at shipyourpets.com??? 

Don't know if I get any kinda discount, but I'll gladly pay for the piece of mind and I'll just price my frogs competitively so that the cost of shipping them is in line if not better then through other people.

So maybe they aren't affiliated with USAfrog, but then why is their link on USAfrog's page? Who the hell are they? Why in the hell would I send them my money over others who don't have so many red flags in my mind???


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## Dendro Dave

Oh BTW I see USAfrog is BBB accredited. So anyone not happy with their business practices can file a complaint... I wonder if we actually have to buy or if we can just say we feel lied to by them and that they pissed all over the hobby community


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## Dendro Dave

Before I closed out the USAfrog page because it hurts my eyes and generally disgusts me, I clicked on their business practices link and found this laughable tid bit...

*"Best Business Practices
Our business practices are voice of the customer and captive bred (Made in America) focused. Great customer service begins with listening. So if you have any questions, comments, concerns about anything, please call us or send us an e-mail. We are eager to assist you!"*

LOL, OMG... again the irony 

They sure as hell didn't listen to us when we expressed our concerns, warned them that their plans would not go over well with the hobby community, that we found some of their info misleading or flat out wrong, asked them to ditch the pseudoscience, offering up questionable husbandry advice, stop making bold claims with little to zero evidence, stop lying to us "we won't mix species or varieties", that their marketing tactics were at least sleazy and some unethical and/or immoral, and that dragging Lotters through the mud didn't help their case, etc..etc..etc...

Ok wait to be fair I guess listening doesn't mean they'll actually change, and they did a crap ton of website editing and eventually did stop dragging Lotters through the mud, and they did eventually come clean with their designer frog plans and gave some excuse that their "we will not mix species or varieties" line was some kinda misunderstanding and/or perfectly legit business tactic of some kind (cough BS cough BS), they also changed some info on the site in response to our feedback... sometimes in a good way, sometimes they just made it worse.

So on occasion they have back peddled when they've screwed up and/or taken things to far, but overall most major problems we've had with their operation (and new ones!) seem to still exist.

Years of argument, debate, and drama they've stirred up on the forums and social media, phone calls, emails sent to them asking to stop or change what they are doing, etc..etc... and they've barely budged in changing any of the things that were pissing so many people off, even when it obviously seems to be hurting their business.

When this many people (their potential customers) have spoke out against them, and so few seem willing to defend them (and when they do it's mostly to say we were to mean, rather then USAfrog did good), that sure as hell doesn't sound like "best" practices to me, hell not even "good" or "so so" ...The record contained within this thread and across the internet seems to = BAD... *BAD BUSINESS PRACTICES* in my opinion, but you all can judge for yourselves


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## Vinegaroonie

Uh oh, they're doing it again... 

http://usafrog.usdartfrog.com/classification.html

Remember that shebacle? I wonder if Mr Lotters would care to comment again...

-Niko


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Boondoggle

Wow. They're using Lotters work to make their point again. That's crazy. Also, why does he say that "the HOBBY" is trying to spread the lie that all tincs are not the same species. Has anyone here EVER said that? That's never been the argument against mixing locales. We do agree on one thing, Rick, "Experts have expertise." 

Oh, by the way, I have a little "cut and paste" for you:




> To whom it may Concern
> 
> Misuse of Lötters et al., 2007, “Poison Frogs” with regard to poison frog morph design on usafrog.com
> 
> It has come to my attention that the webpage Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com has taken certain liberties with sections of “Poison Frogs: Biology, Species, and Captive Husbandry'”, a book I am the main author of. Various passages of this book have been used on this webpage as justification for designing unnatural color morphs. That is mixing different natural color morphs of one poison frog species.
> 
> Apart from that I find designing morphs most disgusting, the makers of the designer morphs, on their webpage, notably misuse and incorrectly interpret passages from pages 85, 86, 96-97, 236, 530, and 549 of our book. My opinion and that of other poison frog researchers as well as serious hobby frog breeders is that one must not mix color morphs!
> 
> Given hundreds of natural morphs already exist in nature, encompassing a rainbow of colors and patterns, there exists no justifiable need for such practices. Even if they didn’t, this is reckless and unnatural. Regardless of justifications, the creation of designer morphs is not encouraged anywhere in our book!
> 
> None of the photographs of the front and back covers of our book, or pictures of the pages within it are used on the above mentioned webpage with any permission. Their use should not be considered an endorsement of the ideas of USA Frog.
> 
> I prompted the holders of Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com to remove the above mentioned book as a reference for making designer morphs!
> 
> Cordially,
> 
> Stefan Lotters


There's some expertise.


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## MasterOogway

Vinegaroonie said:


> Uh oh, they're doing it again...
> 
> http://usafrog.usdartfrog.com/classification.html
> 
> Remember that shebacle? I wonder if Mr Lotters would care to comment again...
> 
> -Niko
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wait for it. I guarantee there will be a frogtraction soon. Rick never knows when to leave well enough alone.


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## phender

Ya, I love it when someone who decided not to go to college and has been keeping frogs for 3 years decides he knows it all and needs to educate the masses.


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## Dendro Dave

...Disgusting and pathetic.

And this...
*"Still, there is a growing body of bogus information being generated out there for the sole purpose of deceiving people into thinking there are subspecies of these frogs when the official word is there are none (see above), so please beware." - USAfrog
*

In my opinion this is another *outright lie*. Other then the occasional newbie who makes the mistake, in 10+ years in the hobby I know of no one now or ever attempting to deceive people into thinking there are subspecies. Where is this growing body of misinformation??? ...cause I'm not seeing it, *except on the USAfrog website.*

*This is their ego run amok.* Rick and maybe the older boys can't let it go that the author of their frog bible straight up told them he's disgusted by their practices, and they can't keep their grubby little hands off his work in an attempt to justify what they are doing... *Expressly against his wishes!!!* 

*Instead they in my opinion manufacture a conspiracy to demonize the mainstream hobby community and dupe people out of their money.* 

The argument has nothing to do whether there are subspecies or not. It has to do with the hobby caring that some frogs represent specific populations, and it matters to us that our collections represent as closely as possible to what occurs in nature... so we don't mix, or worse try to create a fake version of a frog that exists in nature, and pass it off as being good enough.

Rick and the kids apparently feel it's wrong that we even care that some of these populations haven't seen each other in thousands of years, and that we feel a frog manufactured in his basement or "lab"  ...Isn't the same as one who's founding stock originated from the REAL frogs. So they feel justified in pimping their franken frogs as good enough, cheap knock offs of the real frog even though* different morphs/localities were likely used to create the fake version of the real one.... I can buy a kit for a knock off lamborghini, that looks the same on the outside but that doesn't make it a real lamborghini!!! *

Think of it like someone who loves classic cars... It's important to them to restore the car with all original parts as much as possible. There is nothing wrong with that. Now in that hobby they may have to settle for new parts manufactured from the old molds, or custom parts made to replicate the originals as much as possible to finish the restoration, but in our hobby that isn't an issue. All we have to do is not screw up our frogs by throwing them together with other frogs they never or rarely would have bred with in the wild. 

*The frogs are fine AS IS.* A highland bronze auratus and the green/bronze/super blue morphs may look nearly identical but they are not the exact same frog. The genetic differences may be small enough that they don't constitute different subspecies but part of the motivation in keeping those frogs may be to represent in our collection how 2 population groups IN THE WILD can NATURALLY come to look like each other. That it happened naturally and represents real populations in the wild and they weren't created in some greedy morons basement for $$$ matters to us, and there is nothing wrong with that. *There is something wrong with lying to your customers about the reason we care about such things though just to demonize people who bruised your ego and to dupe people into buying your frogs. We know for the purposes of science the hobby names may not mean much, but that's because they don't share all the same goals as us. We are collectors, and as collectors these names do serve a purpose, and unlike so many of your practices that seem to be to decieve, this one of ours (or any of ours really), are not. *

*I don't believe Rick is missing the point. I belive he is well aware of it and attempting to dance around it so he can throw up something in it's place that isn't even an issue to deceive people into buying their franken frogs, while demonizing us to sooth his bruised ego.*

*Well anyways this is sad and pathetic, but again the more Rick can't swallow his pride and set his ego aside: the more of a jerk he looks like to any reasonable person.*

In my opinion Rick gets off on this, but hey the more he talks I think the deeper the hole they dig for themselves gets, and also I think the more obvious it is to others coming into the hobby this drama is about their ego, and trying to make a buck off the uninformed.

*So keep talkin USAfrog... You're our best weapon against your BS. 

But hey if you have a moment please explain to us how you can justify what the majority here and else where seem to feel are sleazy marketing practices, lies, demonizing us after we warned you this would all happen if you went down this road, dragging a respected scientist through the mud and continuing to use his work to support your position when he stood up for himself and was obviously against it, pandering to the new and uninformed to make $$$ with questionable husbandry practices (questioned by those far more experienced then you), based on the philosophies you claim to believe in? ...Why anyone should trust you to sell your designer frogs next to the hobby frogs, after the lies? ...Again in light of your own beliefs you've openly shared how do you justify the megalomania, narcissism, questionable business and personal ethics? ...and for the love of all that is holy how do you sleep at night??? *


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## stevenhman

I'm very sorry to see that this is still an issue. Their website(s ?) scream "shady used car salesman". Not sure how well those copyright and trademarks are holding up for generic words. Are there any legal avenues to approach for trademark fraud?

Registration Symbol Misuse As Trademark Fraud? | The National Law Review etc


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## DragonSpirit1185

Well that's a little bit of business taken away from USA Darts. 
So glad they chose to do the right thing. 
I'd prefer no mom and pop pet store or corporate store to sell but at least they are going the non hybrid route.
I provided them with links here from dendroboard do thanks for the contributions everyone


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## Vinegaroonie

They appear to have hired a graphic designer.. And purchased a new domain. The site actually looks presentable, unfortunately. Hopefully they won't get too many more sales out of it...

http://usafrogs.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rusty_Shackleford

You can dress a pig up in a silk suit, but its still a pig.

Sent from my Z970 using Tapatalk


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## rosenke

So I've been out of the hobby since just before all of this ridiculousness started and I have to say that I am learning so many cool new things from this Rick guy. Haha. It is concerning that their website is so slick looking as to fool people who don't know any better into thinking that they know what they're doing. It's rather unfortunate. 

On the plus side, at some point in the 6 hours I spent reading the past three years of posts on this, I started imagining Rick and Dillon as Rick and Morty from the cartoon. It has been really entertaining in that regard.


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## Vinegaroonie

rosenke said:


> So I've been out of the hobby since just before all of this ridiculousness started and I have to say that I am learning so many cool new things from this Rick guy. Haha. It is concerning that their website is so slick looking as to fool people who don't know any better into thinking that they know what they're doing. It's rather unfortunate.
> 
> 
> 
> On the plus side, at some point in the 6 hours I spent reading the past three years of posts on this, I started imagining Rick and Dillon as Rick and Morty from the cartoon. It has been really entertaining in that regard.




Glad to see you've properly educated yourself on all this bs. It is a fair shame that they've made their website more presentable... someone should send pictures of what it looked like a few months ago. Looked like one of those sleezy 80's car advertisements. Add all their fake "expertise" and if Id seen their website without knowing they were serious I would have thought it was the doing of some mischievous db member trying to get some laughs... unfortunately that's not the case though. Welcome back to the hobby, glad to know we're helping to divert people away from USAfrog!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rosenke

Vinegaroonie said:


> Glad to see you've properly educated yourself on all this bs. It is a fair shame that they've made their website more presentable... someone should send pictures of what it looked like a few months ago. Looked like one of those sleezy 80's car advertisements. Add all their fake "expertise" and if Id seen their website without knowing they were serious I would have thought it was the doing of some mischievous db member trying to get some laughs... unfortunately that's not the case though. Welcome back to the hobby, glad to know we're helping to divert people away from USAfrog!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks! I'm thinking that common sense is hopefully going to play a bit of a role in their demise. They are pretty obviously ridiculous. It's just a darn shame about them. How am I ever going to find a mate for my northernlightsicle auratus?


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## Vinegaroonie

rosenke said:


> Thanks! I'm thinking that common sense is hopefully going to play a bit of a role in their demise. They are pretty obviously ridiculous. It's just a darn shame about them. How am I ever going to find a mate for my northernlightsicle auratus?




Its a problem we all have unfortunately. My sunshinelunareclipsesunraycandystripefishscale tinctorius is really missing a lady friend. Maybe I can just mix him in with my magicalnighttimetwilightmystic tinctorius and see what happens?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carnzayne

> Do you, USA Frog, REQUIRE me to pickup my frogs at a FedEx location?
> 
> No. We require pickup, sometimes and seldom, when it is very cold, i.e., below 20. Our best in the business packaging let's us safely ship when others cannot. Ask around, how many frog sellers use COOLERS with lids to ship frogs? Answer: NOBODY, but USA Frog, and the leadership trends continue...


Q? of the Week | USA Frog, Inc. - SAFE® Pet Dart Frogs - Retail, Wholesale, Export

The leadership trends continue... this cracks me up for some reason.


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## ruairidh_

Would someone be so kind as to quickly tell me what this is all about? Sorry to bother 😐


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## Holdway

Cross breeding. 

Have you not read ANY of the previous posts??


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## evolvstll77

It doesnt take long in reading the thread to figure it out. "A tinc is a tinc" 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse.html




ruairidh_ said:


> Would someone be so kind as to quickly tell me what this is all about? Sorry to bother 😐


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## ruairidh_

I've read bits and I get its to do with breeding hybrids, but what's the aim of the thread?


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## MasterOogway

To raise the community awareness of these issues, to present our (as a hobby) problems with this particular company's business practices and ethical standards, and to help people make informed and educated purchases? And to keep tabs on their shenanigans


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## Ravage

I spent a good part of this weekend reading this thread (most of it anyway) and had to check out the site. The pseudo-christian rantings page linked in their footer says everything you need to know. Self-righteous babbling ( I hope this doesn't violate terms) that gives a firm "backstory" to their cause. They seem to think they are a breed apart, so why not make a breed apart? When I was young I worked for a "born again" owned aquarium store, and the abuse of animals was horrid. They had the same "dominion over animals" that these folks profess. I just still don't get it. Being raised Roman Catholic, there was never anything I saw in the New Testament to justify such a stance (and Christianity IS the New Testament)

There was a pic of a frog on their website today (called "Mango- white yellowback") that was emaciated and visibly sick. But apparently up for sale. Pretty much photographic proof of out-crossing depression.

I used to breed Discus and became disgusted by the multi-colored monstrosities that overran the hobby. Wild Discus are beautiful, majestic creatures- a "Marlborough red candy stripe" is not. This is what they are trying to do, but unfortunately without the background the in genetics the Asian breeders possess. Walmart mentality is the way of American business today, and all the flag-waving on this site is evidence that that is their goal. Low Prices for poor quality.

Hubris is their weakness, as it is for many of us. Are they not afraid of inadvertently re-introducing a pathogen into their operation by blindly taking in larvae bred by their unwitting customers? ( Tadpole buy-back) Did he skip the biosecurity section in Ag 101? I somehow doubt they'd spend the effort or $ on a quarantine. Because this operation is all about money, there is no demonstration of husbandry whatsoever. 

We can rant, that's been done so very well in this thread, but ultimately, they will have to be the authors of their own downfall. American law will protect what they are doing, and the general public is anything but informed and curious. I wish there was something we could do.


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## Woodswalker

I might have mentioned this before, but this reminds me of the business that came to a large orchid forum to warn everyone that they could no longer use the term, "orchidarium," to describe their orchidaria. They were opening a business dedicated to building them, and had subsequently trademarked the term. So, the very hobbyists who were their target demographic were all handed threats of legal action, as was the forum itself, if they continued to use the term. I should add that they did not coin the term themselves. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot.

Long story short, if you search for the business or its website today, it's very gratifying to see that they no longer exist. I can't remember the name, but there's a long thread about it on Orchid Board (if I remember correctly). 

I'm expecting the same or similar will happen with Wal*frog, or whatever they decide to call it next.


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## 55105

Can someone with more expertise point out a few hybrids on their website? 

I'm still reading through all this...

Thanks!


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## alex111683

Every single one of their pictured frog is a hybrid. The only way to get a "pure" morph from them is to specifically ask for one through emails.

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## evolvstll77

alex111683 said:


> Every single one of their pictured frog is a hybrid. The only way to get a "pure" morph from them is to specifically ask for one through emails.
> 
> Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk


Why would anyone knowingly support them?


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## 55105

alex111683 said:


> Every single one of their pictured frog is a hybrid. The only way to get a "pure" morph from them is to specifically ask for one through emails.


It's kinda important I don't get sued by these wackos lol

What about this section: AMERICAN™ Pet Dart Frogs - Top Quality & Satisfaction Guarante | USA Frog, Inc. - SAFE® Pet Dart Frogs - Retail, Wholesale, Export



evolvstll77 said:


> Why would anyone knowingly support them?


Doing research FO if you think asking questions = supporting them. No need to get hyperbolic...


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## evolvstll77

port_plz said:


> It's kinda important I don't get sued by these wackos lol
> 
> What about this section: AMERICAN™ Pet Dart Frogs - Top Quality & Satisfaction Guarante | USA Frog, Inc. - SAFE® Pet Dart Frogs - Retail, Wholesale, Export
> 
> 
> 
> Doing research FO if you think asking questions = supporting them. No need to get hyperbolic...


It was more of a statement than a question......... I guess you cant see my eye roll through the post


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## thedudeabides

alex111683 said:


> Every single one of their pictured frog is a hybrid. The only way to get a "pure" morph from them is to specifically ask for one through emails.
> 
> Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk


It sounds to me like they just throw a bunch of morphs together in the same enclosure then see what comes out, give it a ridiculous name then put it on their page. The only way I would trust anything from them is "pure" is if it was the original specimen they obtained, and I am not sure how they could prove that.


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## 55105

evolvstll77 said:


> It was more of a statement than a question......... I guess you cant see my eye roll through the post


Reading through 2500 post thread is kinda getting to me...


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## srrrio

You are not going to if the morphs have been mixed by photographs.

Also since this company came out of the gate with overstated, understated, and blatant L_____S . In this case I would definitely go with the phrase "just because someone says it's true.. does not make it true! "


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## 55105

srrrio said:


> You are not going to if the morphs have been mixed by photographs.
> 
> Also since this company came out of the gate with overstated, understated, and blatant L_____S . In this case I would definitely go with the phrase "just because someone says it's true.. does not make it true! "


Are you saying that you can't id the hybrids through photos?


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## phender

On the page you linked to, none of the frogs are obvious hybrids and they list the common morph name.

On some of the other pages they picture frogs without a common morph name. For example "mango - a yellow legged tinctoris" is a hybrid. The problem is, since they don't consider mixing morphs as hybrids (even though every scientist in the world would/does) and simply give names based on appearance, an azureus that you buy from them will look like an azureus, but may actually be the result of a hybridization of azureus and something else, but this particular baby just happens to look like an azureus.
That concern is based on their rhetoric and not actual facts.


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## 55105

phender said:


> On the page you linked to, none of the frogs are obvious hybrids and they list the common morph name.
> 
> On some of the other pages they picture frogs without a common morph name. For example "mango - a yellow legged tinctoris" is a hybrid. The problem is, since they don't consider mixing morphs as hybrids (even though every scientist in the world would/does) and simply give names based on appearance, an azureus that you buy from them will look like an azureus, but may actually be the result of a hybridization of azureus and something else, but this particular baby just happens to look like an azureus.
> That concern is based on their rhetoric and not actual facts.


Shit still stinks no matter what you call it™ 

TY! So the Mango is definitely a hybrid? What about this one


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## alex111683

My best guess for that one would be a powder x matecho
Or powder x giant orange

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## srrrio

port_plz said:


> Are you saying that you can't id the hybrids through photos?


Exactly..only the obvious ones. Phenders answer is much clearer


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## 55105

srrrio said:


> Exactly..only the obvious ones. Phenders answer is much clearer


For hmmm... science, it would be incredibly helpful if someone with a lot of experience / knowledge IDing frogs could go through and point out the ones that are without a doubt hybrids. I know it's a big ask and I can't say why I need this info just yet.

I don't have the expertise to ID the hybrids other than my opinion that many of them look highly suspicious but that's based off my very limited knowledge.


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## cam1941

I think that's the point they are making. Its impossible to visually identify a hybrid of 2 morphs just by eye. A DNA test would be necessary. Without one you are only guessing. 

Sometimes pure morphs will look out of the ordinary and could be mistaken as hybrids and sometimes hybrids will look like a pure morph. You would need a DNA test to be sure.




port_plz said:


> For hmmm... science, it would be incredibly helpful if someone with a lot of experience / knowledge IDing frogs could go through and point out the ones that are without a doubt hybrids. I know it's a big ask and I can't say why I need this info just yet.
> 
> I don't have the expertise to ID the hybrids other than my opinion that many of them look highly suspicious but that's based off my very limited knowledge.


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## 55105

cam1941 said:


> I think that's the point they are making. Its impossible to visually identify a hybrid of 2 morphs just by eye. A DNA test would be necessary. Without one you are only guessing.
> 
> Sometimes pure morphs will look out of the ordinary and could be mistaken as hybrids and sometimes hybrids will look like a pure morph. You would need a DNA test to be sure.


Ah OK that makes sense but is very problematic. I guess these weirdos found another loophole to exploit...

So how much is DNA testing these days?...


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## tardis101

port_plz said:


> Ah OK that makes sense but is very problematic. I guess these weirdos found another loophole to exploit...
> 
> So how much is DNA testing these days?...


A standard DNA test will (I imagine) tell you if they've cross species (like a tinc and auratus or auratus and leuc). Although I think most could visual ID those crosses. But I don't think a standard DNA test will be able to catch within species crosses of different morphs (at least not tincs) like yellow back with a citronella). Because morphs are all the same species, they aren't even subspecies, the genetic difference between them is small. I think you'd have to pay a lot for a more sensitive genetic testing than a standard DNA test.. See Disentangling composite colour patterns in a poison frog species. Wolllenberg et. al 2008. Biological journal of Linnean Society 2008. 93:433-444. Although I think there are greater differences between the pumilios, so a standard test might work with those.


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## connorp

So I may have missed this, but is usafrog out of business finally? Their website doesn't seem to exist anymore.


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## MasterOogway

It does. Sadly. You can find it here.


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## pa.walt

8,000 FROGS SOLD IN THE USA IN 2016!
must be a great place they have sold that many frogs.


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## jeffkruse

If I didn't stumble across this thread I would think USA frog was like all the rest. The website looks like many others and is easy to use. As a beginner who just wants a few frogs I could have been taken in by them if it wasn't for a member of this forum and this thread.


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