# 3 pdfs dead in 3 days??



## aliciaface (Jul 11, 2010)

Hey all - 

I lost a leuc from a 30 gal with 3 others, and today found that two of my 3 tincs in a neighboring tank had died as well. I cant think of anything that might be common between two tanks other than mold on banana pieces and maybe temperature?? We've had a few cold nights here but my thermometers on the tanks show that they are just slightly below mid 70s, like 71, 72, any opinions on the matter? There are plenty of flies crawling around in both tanks so I don't believe it was starvation, they were all happy and healthy just a few days ago, the only change i have made to any of my tanks is adding a small piece of banana to let the FFs culture in the tanks, but mold starting to grow pretty quickly and im still waiting a shipment of springs to seed the tanks with because all of my local sellers have been out. There doesnt appear to be anything peculiar about the bodies, Im just devastated and dont want to lose any more  should I add tank heaters or do anything differently? Ive been turning a space heater towards the tanks at night when i am home but never let the temps get too high.

im just at a loss as to what i should do  and dont want to lose any more frogs!!!


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

What kind of therm is in your viv...what are the high/ low temps...best guess. Also do you have a picture of the frogs tanks and of the actual frogs right before they died??? These things might be a big help for us to help you.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ya pics of tank and frogs while they were alive and also dead if possible might be helpful. It sounds though like there was some kind of contamination. Unlikely mold on banana or something would do it, but perhaps some silicone or some other chemical used during construction didn't cure properly. Or some kind of disease or other pathogen came in on some plants or other materials. 

How much do your temps drop at night, frogs should survive temps down to the 60's? and how hot do the tanks get before lights out? How humid were the tanks? Environmental causes are possible but, they really have to be pretty out of wack to kill darts that quick which leads me to lean more towards a pathogen or chemical cause. If that is the case, or even if you can't find out for sure you'll probably need to break those vivs down, wash with bleach and start with all new materials. Sanitize or throw away everything that came into contact with those tanks also, and try to refrain from using anything that was in them in any new tanks. Sucks, but it does happen to people from time to time.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Sudden deaths, especially like these where you are not 100% on the cause warrant a necropsy. Even more so if you plan to breed and sell.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Temps down to 70 even 65 shouldn't have caused the deaths...and the mold on the banana isn't anything to worry about either. 

I would def suggest giving us some info to go on. How the tanks were setup, age of the frogs, how long you've had them ect.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ggazonas said:


> Temps down to 70 even 65 shouldn't have caused the deaths...and the mold on the banana isn't anything to worry about either.
> 
> I would def suggest giving us some info to go on. How the tanks were setup, age of the frogs, how long you've had them ect.


 
Those temps should not have caused any problems.. I've seen tinctorius group frogs go all the way down to the 50s with no issue. 

I would strongly suggest getting some necropsies done on the frogs... one of the things that leaps to mind as a potential cause is chytrid as it can infect the frogs and not cause any problems as long as the temps are above 75 F but once they start to drop below that point, mortality begins to occur. 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

This may be a long shot, but... weren't you recently building tanks? Are you sure the silicone was completely dry? The smell completely gone?


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## aliciaface (Jul 11, 2010)

Make that 5 pdfs dead in 4 days 

To give more information...

Tank 1: 3 leucs dead out of 4

Tank was built late September and frogs arrived Mid October. All of the plants I have in them were ones that I had had sitting in an empty tank waiting to be planted. This tank has a clay background so there were NO chemicals used anywhere in the tank. I cleaned the tank with warm water after purchase and that is it.

I have moss that I purchased from a nursery, thought maybe that was something BUT i have the same moss in 4 other tanks, everyone else is happy and hopping around, and my tinc tank has none, though 2 of them are now deceased.

I have clippings from the plants in this tank in 4 of my other tanks that have had 0 casualties. 

I purchased a total of 6 leucs all in one go and my other 2 are in a different tank and seem to be happy and healthy as always. There was one leuc in this tank that I had been worried about, he was on the skinny side when I got him but was getting enough food. He was dead this morning. The other leuc i found dead this morning was fat and appeared to have nothing off about him. Will post pics of these two latest asap. 

Tank 2: 2 tincs dead out of 3

No plants in common with Tank 1, other than the banana and temp as i suggested they have not a single thing in common. not plants, background. nothing.

This tank I built in late June or sometime in July? I can track my receipts and find the exact date. But still. a little late to be that? The background on this one is GS foam and coco, but Ive had NO issues here and the tincs were all growing rapidly and were out and about all of the time.

Im leaning towards a pathogen or contaminant because everyone has seemed completely healthy until BAM death. Very sudden, and the number of deaths are really started to worry me. These two tanks are on the bottom on my two racks, and that is why i was leaning towards temp? I bought new LCD thermometers today and a temp gauge and hygro to check these out and see if there are commonalities here, but again the therm I had has never dropped below 69 at the absolute lowest. 

The bizarre thing is that my 2 azureus and 4 auratus (in an unrelated/unaffected tank) were hiding a lot more last week than they ever have and now are back to being out all day. Maybe an omen of what was to come? I have no idea. 

the thank that i had posted about the waterfall is an unrelated 50g, i know that tanks need to be aired out and established before introducing froggies so no worries there.

sorry for the lengthy post, just trying to be thorough and explore all options, thanks to everyone who has responded, really appreciate you guys!!


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## aliciaface (Jul 11, 2010)

are there any diseases that come to mind that would NOT display in any way? their little bodies looked perfectly fine before death and after, im pretty dilligent about checking in on everyone throughout each day. i will keep doing my research but if anyone has a clue id be grateful!


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## Kantix (Nov 5, 2010)

I'm not a proffesional with dart frogs but I'm a veteran with tree frogs. I watched a documentry with the golden frog from Panama and learned that the species is becoming extinct due to a infection in the lungs called "Chytrid Fungus," it not only affects the golden frog but other species of amphibians. I suggest you look it up to see if any of the conditions found were noticiable with your frogs. I hope and I'm sure its not the case but one can never be to careful. 

Best of luck to you, 
Sincerely Kantix.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

What your describing with the temp drops does sound like chytrid issues. Ive had vivs in the 50's before due to power outtages and the frogs did fine for a few days. They usually just bunker down in the leaves or in a gap in the wood or background until the temps rise. I would definately get a necropsy and see as it is common for it to spread through ones collection if you dont use caution and sterilize everything between viv contacts. Contamination between vivs can spread parasites, chytrid and other nasties, all of which can hurt the frogs in the right situations,.

Michael


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

I would quarantine everyone separately and get tests done. It would be a shame to keep losing frogs


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## Caden (Jan 9, 2010)

I didn't read all of the posts thouroughly, but if it has not been said remove your remaining frogs from the tanks that had casualties in them and into temporary tanks of some sort. Get fecals done on them.


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

aliciaface said:


> Make that 5 pdfs dead in 4 days
> 
> To give more information...
> 
> ...


Did you go searching for your frogs daily if you couldnt see/ find them??? Could be just from being over stressed though I believe your frogs have chytrid fungus that appeared when the temps dropped.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Get fecals done on the surviving leuc ASAP, or on the freshest piece of doo you can find in the affected tanks... any chance of airborne pollutants? Depending on what your tank vents are like, over-spraying Febreze or somethin similar in the room could do a number on your frogs.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Fecals and necropsy are good ideas in this case. It may also be wise to alert the breeder or breeders you obtained these frogs from to let them know their stock may be contaminated. Be nice and don't accuse them of anything but they should at least be informed so they can run tests if they feel it is necessary. At least then you've done your part to lessen the chance that whatever this is could spread to other collections or through the breeders own collection.


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## aliciaface (Jul 11, 2010)

hey everyone - 

moved everybody out of the affected tanks, my other frogs all seem to be doing just fine so hopefully things will start to look up. I have a space heater that ive set up to come on a timer at night for several hours and that appears to be helping. temps have been good for the past week and frogs are out and about much more and moving around so hopefully remaining frogs will pull through.


In semi-unrelated news....in 2 of my unaffected tanks i had an absolute explosion of white fuzzy mold. I was out of town for 1 day and had my roommate mist my tanks and feed for me, and i come home to a winter wonderland in 2 of my 10 gals (my third 10 gal right next to these 2 was totally fine, another mystery for your guys...). The bananas i had mentioned prior appear to be the culprit. but man. i cant seem to catch a break. i tore the tanks apart and am cleaning everything from top to bottom, switching out substrate and throwing out plants and clippings. I am hoping sanitizing everything with hot water will suffice? (coco huts, glass inside of tanks) I am apprehensive about using any chemicals, though perhaps something is necessary here? Maybe diluted bleach, follow with a thorough washing and enough time to air out?

any thoughts are appreciated, i think i am done with bananas though.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Plants can be soaked in bleach solution. Some say 5 percent bleach to water, others say 10 percent. Then make sure to rinse well. I've been told that huts and wood and whatnot can be boiled.

For the tank, I'd wash that in bleach solution too. Can fill it up with bleach water and let it soak. Then drain and rinse out well.

Mold doesn't hurt the frogs, from what I've read. But it can be pretty freaky. My bananas mold and get gross and then it goes away. Do you have microfauna to eat the mold?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If the possibility of Chytrid exists, then reusing the plants would scare me. Bleach the tank and coco huts and rinse really well. For the coco huts and anything else porous, a dechlor soak would be in order after bleaching. Letting things COMPLETELY and TOTALLY dry out is supposed to kill Chytrid so that would be the next step. Best of luck! 
Doug


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## Topete (Sep 27, 2009)

i personally have used bananas in the past to get the flies to be at the same place so that frogs feed easier... i highly doubt that is the problem?

did you get the fecals done?

also not sure if it was asked.. but what kind of silicone did you use? or did you use caulk???

Good luck.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

If it is chytrid you will need to swab the frogs underside and toes along with arm pits Pisces are very good about sending you the info on how to swab and sending you material to do it.
I did the chytrid test and fecals due to a mysterous death of a frog. My chytrid test was negative but fecals came back with a heavy load of hookworms. Without a necropsy I did not know what caused the death but treated the other surviving frog in the viv that I moved to a quarantine container for hooks and she is fine and had clean fecals as after treatment. The chytrid testing is somewhat expensive (80 bucks) fecals inexpensive (18 bucks), I used Dr. Frye for my fecals. Necropsy's can be expensive, I was told 180 or so. 
Either way I would strongly suggest at least doing fecals and testing for chytrid for the sake of your remaining frogs.
-Beth


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

i have a few deaths in the last month
i thought was from the sudden temp drop.
then i was told that one of the frogs i got was wild caught 
(from a vendor at the expo)

so theres 2 things i can blame but dont know for sure what happened.



3 frogs dead 3 days, and they were in completely diff set ups too...

my temps went form 75F daytime - 64F night time. 

now they go to 68F minimum at night and 75-78 during the day.


i dont have the money to check any frogs,, i only got 3 left...

and one is showing symptoms of dying , that one is quarantined.

the symptoms are: 

slow , unbalanced , unsure movements... staying still for extremely long periods. not eating, seclusion, and if moved ... will look almost half paralyzed while trying to fix themselvs.
heartbeat/breath slowed to a few times every now n then. 
obviously, skinnier from not eating also...

is this that cytrid fungus????
or cold?
or somthing else??? 

ya i guess it sucks in this hobby cuz soo many things that can completely ruin what youve worked so hard for.

you can do everything by the book and still loose it all in the end.
just dont beat urself up about it.

sorry for your loss.. hope the rest dont die.


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

miked said:


> i have a few deaths in the last month
> i thought was from the sudden temp drop.
> then i was told that one of the frogs i got was wild caught
> (from a vendor at the expo)
> ...



I highly doubt its the temps doing this since my temps for all my species goes from a 72-73 during the day down to a possibly 62-63...but it is a steady decline. Just some info.


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

hey , just an update..... my vet did a free test and exam.. not for fecals.. but chytrid was positive in the 1 frog i brought in, which was in contact with almost everything i have at one point, and if not at least in the same room..

im scrambling to figure out the best way to not loos everything. but to sterilize it all properly.. :/

should i be worried about worms too??i only have 3 left alive right now.. all in quarantine doing the intraconazol treatment baths...

is the dendrobate fecal check 18$ everywhere? i think my vet charges 50$ usually. well at least for reptiles when i had iguanas done.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

That was really great of your vet to do that for you. So sorry to hear that it is chytrid. Hopefully the treatment will be a success. 

Have you contacted that vendor to let them know about the sick frog? Maybe you could receive a refund on the cost. I would say to get a replacement but I don't know if it's a good idea to get another one from the same source.


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Was it found in the frog you bought as W/C??


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

the apparently WC basti, that was the first to die... was disposed of before i knew it was chytrid, and before i knew that frog was or might be WC.

the frog i had tested was one that was perfectly healthy 2 days ago, and went huge downhill yesterday. it pretty much died as i got to the vets.

they were all in contact at some point. with eachother or with a plant


the stupid thing about this testing is, that theres only 1 lab in GTA that performs this qpcr test, and its through savethefrog.com luckily my vet knows someone who works there.

as for the seller, im sure he is going thru hell right now with other customers as well as his own collection. he just got back to me this morning. im gunna speak with him after work tonight about this whole thing.

as long as theres no more deaths and i can salvage as much as posible then ill be ok, its so depressing watching them all die one by one after giving them names and taking care of them everyday.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Seems like there has been an increase in sick frog posts recently. I would caution everyone receiving new frogs to be especially careful. 

miked, I know what you mean, it is devastating when a frog dies.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

miked said:


> they were all in contact at some point. with eachother or with a plant


I hate to be 'that guy', but it sounds as though you didn't properly quarantine the WC frog...or maybe any of your purchases. Mixing frogs from different tanks and even swapping plants between vivs can lead to major problems. Sorry to hear about your losses Mike...and OP, I hope your frogs turn out to be fungus-free.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm sorry for your losses to both of you. Just a reminder to please be responsible about disposal of any and all infected materials. Don't need to be spreading it further.
Doug


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Seems like there has been an increase in sick frog posts recently. I would caution everyone receiving new frogs to be especially careful.
> 
> miked, I know what you mean, it is devastating when a frog dies.


I have the impression that we go through this every year once room temps begin to go down... 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> I have the impression that we go through this every year once room temps begin to go down...
> 
> Ed


That's really interesting. This is my first winter on DB, and, my first winter with frogs. A little scary.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed

Would there be any value in lowering the temps of newly acquired frogs to rule out chytrid?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Ed
> 
> Would there be any value in lowering the temps of newly acquired frogs to rule out chytrid?


 
Some frogs still tolerate it pretty well at cooler temperatures meaning you really can't rule it out and if you mean rule it out by potentially killing the more sensitive frogs.. it could work but would be cheaper to do a swab test... 

There are indications in the literature that if given access to warmer temperatures the frogs may be able to clear the infection... 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thank you. I'm going to do more research on this.


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

I am sorry that this happened.


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