# Mixing morphs?



## BullfrogGreg (Sep 2, 2008)

I know that when i comes to other types of frogs, mixing of species is frowned upon and i have also heard that species mixing is not great with Darts because of the risk of breeding; but what about morphs? like could you put a red splashback with a yellow or orange splashback. Or a british guyana leucomela with a regular one? Or anything of that nature. Thanks for whatever you can tell me.


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

I asked the same question a while back and the answer was pretty much the same. I was advised against it. If I can find my old post I will copy it over here unless someone chimes in first with the reasons why.

Ok, here is my original post. I re-read it and there is info for both sides. I will let you read and decipher. You will probably still get other opinions on the subject as well.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29883


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

if your mixing frogs of difrent morphs but the same species your chances of a unwanted breeding are even higher.to be honest i did just that with a young male leuc and a banded female leuc. now im faced with culling {killing off} the eggs and cause im a big softy if i missed any eggs i have the next 20 yrs or taking care of a mutt breed frog that i dont want to risk ever getting out to the public out of my control. trurthfully i should have just got off my lazy butt and set up another tank , cause in the long run its the way i should have gone to start.
so it can be done, its not looked on well by the vast majority or frogers and has consequences youll have to deal with.but the choice is yours 
craig


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

variations of the same morph, ????????????? 

My opinion. If you are willing to invest the time and money in keeping these "jewels" why not keep them in their own set ups? Start with one type and if you can keep them alive for a year move on to adding to your collection. I say a year as most individuals will be interested for a few months or less. With having to set up fruit fly cultures once to two times each week or purchasing that same amount, it becomes a job, eventually the frogs will then suffer and not be fed as much and by the time most find someone to take them off their hands, they are beyond revival. Again my experience and opinion....................


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## BullfrogGreg (Sep 2, 2008)

evolvstll, I'm not sure what your saying when you say "variations of the same morph, ?????????????". Was there more to this that got cut off or something?

Also i wasn't saying that i was going to do that, i never once said that i was. I just wanted to know if this was done. This isn't like my first pet, i didn't just see it and say im gonna get that (i did do that with my first darts, and learned from my mistake) i'v been planning these out for months really. I've been keeping herps for about 5 or 6 years and i'm counting from the time i got my first store bought animal, because i have had snakes that i've collected from the wild, anyway what im saying is that i highly doubt that i will get bored with them in a few months. I haven't even gotten bored with my pacman frogs and they dont do anything really.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Since the banded Dendrobates leucomelas morph is an artifically developed form not found in nature in a select population, but as individuals in many populations, and since they don't breed true in any case, why kill the offspring. I believe it stems from the fact that here on Dendroboard lines are everything and if you don't breed your animals with identical animals then their offspring are "bad." I think its a terrible state of our hobby when we people feel they need to kill off frogs that are perfectly fine because they don't suite someone's idea of what they should be. Craig, please don't think I'm picking on you, I'm not. Its the state of the hobby in America. This isn't a problem elsewhere in the world but it sure is here. 

I'm not advicating mixing different morphs found in nature, like powder blue and alanis Dendrobates tinctorius, but if the frogs look similar and as far as you can tell there from the same general area then we should feel free to "mix" them. If we continue to limit what can breed with what and with the very limited stock we have in captivity we're going to end up with poorer and poorer quality frogs. I've said this before, many time, and I'll say it again. I think the hobby is still heading in the wrong direction. And I'll keep on saying so. 

Best,

Chuck



somecanadianguy said:


> if your mixing frogs of difrent morphs but the same species your chances of a unwanted breeding are even higher.to be honest i did just that with a young male leuc and a banded female leuc. now im faced with culling {killing off} the eggs and cause im a big softy if i missed any eggs i have the next 20 yrs or taking care of a mutt breed frog that i dont want to risk ever getting out to the public out of my control. trurthfully i should have just got off my lazy butt and set up another tank , cause in the long run its the way i should have gone to start.
> so it can be done, its not looked on well by the vast majority or frogers and has consequences youll have to deal with.but the choice is yours
> craig


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Amen Chuck!!!

I didn't catch that the frogs were the same initially. 

Yes, you have brought this up before and I agree with you regarding the line breeding & limiting stock.

I think when people mention lines...others think that is the standard and what they should maintain. 5-10 years ago, goals in the hobby were different. You searched for other blood lines to strengthen the stock - now it is limited. We had such limited stock to begin with, we had to build on it whenever possible.

I hope no one takes this as me suggesting to mix pumilio or anything like that, because I am not. 

Melis



chuckpowell said:


> Since the banded Dendrobates leucomelas morph is an artifically developed form not found in nature in a select population, but as individuals in many populations, and since they don't breed true in any case, why kill the offspring. I believe it stems from the fact that here on Dendroboard lines are everything and if you don't breed your animals with identical animals then their offspring are "bad." I think its a terrible state of our hobby when we people feel they need to kill off frogs that are perfectly fine because they don't suite someone's idea of what they should be. Craig, please don't think I'm picking on you, I'm not. Its the state of the hobby in America. This isn't a problem elsewhere in the world but it sure is here.
> 
> I'm not advicating mixing different morphs found in nature, like powder blue and alanis Dendrobates tinctorius, but if the frogs look similar and as far as you can tell there from the same general area then we should feel free to "mix" them. If we continue to limit what can breed with what and with the very limited stock we have in captivity we're going to end up with poorer and poorer quality frogs. I've said this before, many time, and I'll say it again. I think the hobby is still heading in the wrong direction. And I'll keep on saying so.
> 
> ...


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

So what happens if I were to mix say a few mint terribilis with a couple yellow ones? They are the same frog, just different color, correct? And if they breed would there be a new color morph or would some some out like the father and some like the mother? Same question with leucs, say standard and fine spotted? A new pattern or just some offspring will be banded and some will be spotted?


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

You wouldn't mix them. Those are considered color morphs & were not selectively breed to create a new one.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I think your missing the point. Dendrobates leucomelas morphs are almost all artificial. They were breed that way. There is not a distinct population in the wild that is entirely banded, or small spots, or green legged, or orange, or whatever. There are individuals in many populations that show these variations. Someone has gotten together a bunch of stripped (or small spotted if you like) and breed them together to get stripped (or small spotted) offspring, and not all the offspring produced are stripped (or spotted). These aren't populations, these are human created morphs. 

My understanding of Phyllobates terribilis is the different color forms come from different areas, so no I wouldn't advise mixing them. But if you have a mint and(or) a yellow and(or) an orange from the same locality then yes breed them together and see what you get. 

i'm just saying that some people are being too restrictive about what breeds with what. Lets take it down a notch, or we'll have poorer frogs in the future. Frogs from the wild are not an unlimited resource and if we don't start keeping our frogs better then we'll end up loosing them in the long run. 

On a purely genetic level you'd get a mix of mint and yellow and something in between. Is that really a bad thing. Their not hybrids. Be honest about what you have and I don't see a problem. In fact some genetic diversity might be good in the long run of the speices. 

Best,

Chuck




Nubster said:


> So what happens if I were to mix say a few mint terribilis with a couple yellow ones? They are the same frog, just different color, correct? And if they breed would there be a new color morph or would some some out like the father and some like the mother? Same question with leucs, say standard and fine spotted? A new pattern or just some offspring will be banded and some will be spotted?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Interesting thread, new twist on the average mixing thread.

This is happening with Intermedius. There are some who keep the blue legs seperate, and some who keep the more banded seperate. But given that these probably all came from the same source that is mearly line breeding, and not helpful in the long run. I beleive the only Intermedius in the hobby that is from a seperate local is the striped variation, but you don't really see those anyway.

I don't know what to think about all of this, I am not smart enough with darts to figure it out.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

chuckpowell said:


> Since the banded Dendrobates leucomelas morph is an artifically developed form not found in nature in a select population, but as individuals in many populations, and since they don't breed true in any case, why kill the offspring. I believe it stems from the fact that here on Dendroboard lines are everything and if you don't breed your animals with identical animals then their offspring are "bad." I think its a terrible state of our hobby when we people feel they need to kill off frogs that are perfectly fine because they don't suite someone's idea of what they should be. Craig, please don't think I'm picking on you, I'm not. Its the state of the hobby in America. This isn't a problem elsewhere in the world but it sure is here.
> 
> I'm not advicating mixing different morphs found in nature, like powder blue and alanis Dendrobates tinctorius, but if the frogs look similar and as far as you can tell there from the same general area then we should feel free to "mix" them. If we continue to limit what can breed with what and with the very limited stock we have in captivity we're going to end up with poorer and poorer quality frogs. I've said this before, many time, and I'll say it again. I think the hobby is still heading in the wrong direction. And I'll keep on saying so.
> 
> ...


correct me if im wrong but is the baned luec not from British Guyana and the standard leucs from Venezuela , that would make them just a wee bit more difrent than just bred that way for effect??
green foots squigly backs yea but not banded
craig


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

If they are the BG luecs, he should have stated that... I produce many "banded" luecs from my standard stock. 

There is a difference between the two...and should be identified as such.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Ok, there are banded Dendrobates leucomelas in almost every population, maybe not alot but their there. And the species ranges from Panama to British Guyana and I don't know of, and have never heard of, any population that is distinct from any other populations in broad terms. One population may have more orange, or more spotted, or more banded, or more yellow, but you can find each in almost evey population. The "morphs" we see in the hobby today are artificial, man made (as they are for D. azureus). If you have animals with locality data and not just British Guyana vs. Venezuela then you have something special (i.e., locality data) and should keep it as "pure" as possible. Wild caught leucomelas haven't come in in about 10 years and I don't foresee any coming in anytime soon. Therefore we need to be very careful with what we have. I'm trying to look at the hobby 20-50 years down the line. Yeah I'll be dead in 50 years, but maybe not 20. I've been keeping Dendrobatids for about 25 years now and its amazing how much things have changed over those few years. And how many of our frogs don't looking like their wild counterparts that came in in the 1980's and 90's. We need to think long term. 

Best,

Chuck




somecanadianguy said:


> correct me if im wrong but is the baned luec not from British Guyana and the standard leucs from Venezuela , that would make them just a wee bit more difrent than just bred that way for effect??
> green foots squigly backs yea but not banded
> craig


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Chuck,

Actually, there was an importation of wild caught Luecs from British Guyana a few years ago. I think SNDF offered them for sale. 

They are the only importation of them I know, and they are larger in size than the common luecs in the hobby. I guess they have been nicknamed bandeds because the majority of them emerge with bands. I have also heard them referred to as poor man lehmanni. 

They usually sell at a higher price then regular lues. I think AZDR  has them for around $100 each (F1 line).

Melissa


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Josh (joshsfrogs) has some too, and from talking to him, there seems to be a substantial difference from the 'typical' D. leucomelas in the hobby.


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