# Looking into thumbnails...



## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

I'd like to make a new vivarium, big suprise, this hobby really is as addicting as you all say. It prolly won't happen till summer time, but never too early to start planning. I'd like to know what you guys think about thumbmails.

So, I'd like to know a little more about thumbnails and your guys' personal experiences. I think what I'm curious about more than anything, is how active are they? I have Leucs right now, and they're always out and about, making them really enjoyable. I've heard that thumbnails often like to just sit in their bromeliads and not do much, is that true? I want frogs that I can watch hop all over the place.

My other consideration for a new tank would be something like tincs or even geckos of some sorts.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Thumbnails in general are fairly active..........only a vast majority of them will duck and cover if they see you glaring in. THere are a few that are more bold than most tincs, like the D. imitators. I have heard standard lamasi are pretty bold as well. Then if you also start looking into the egg feeders such as pumilio, they are very bold (have you seen the pics of the male blue jeans taking on a full sized tinc??? ). And, like you say, it is never to early to start planning your next viv . 

Major rule of thumb though: the more hiding spots and vegetation you plant in your viv, the more active and more often you will see your frogs. If they always have somewhere they can dart into, then they will feel a lot more comfortable than only having one or two good spots to hide in. SO, if they have more hiding spots, in question, they will utilize more of the viv . I have a group of vents in a VERY thick 75 gallon, and generally vents are very shy frogs. Mine are just as bold as my imitators though, and I contribute that to their vivarium and the way it is set up. Anyway, take care, and ask away, I am sur eothers will help answer 

ed parker


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

thanks for the reply. the only reason i might not want imitators is because of their colors. even though they're still sweet looking, i want frogs that will really stand out, like my leucs with bright yellow. the imitators are a yellowish green mostly.

edit: just looking them up i noticed intermedius is a form of imitator. are they just as bold as a regular imitator. i like their orange much better.

I really like the Lamasi, they have a much brighter yellow and their patters are just as awesome.

from ur post i'm assuming now that pumilio are not thumbnails? i always thought they are. i thought it was a general term referring all the types of frogs that are really small. so when i started the thread saying thumbnails, i meant to include pumilio too. they're pretty bold you say?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

Intermedius i've found are even bolder than imitators. Lamasi are very expensive atm, although you can get panguana or green leggeds for around 100 (my green leggeds are very shy). Pumilio are good, man creeks are in ready supply and as long as you set things up right for them are very hardy.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

My own imitators are the most lovely of colors-- Their backs are made of the tricolored gold of of the Black Hills jewelry, yellow gold, red gold and greenish gold, fading on down into the lower back that joins legs of reticulated black and blue. I don't know how one can beat that for color, unless one has some problem with color blindness or a lack of distinction among hues and tones of color.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

What a beautiful description, Patty!

I'd say, if you have a chance to see the species you're interested live (as opposed to in pictures), grab it. (Attend a show, visit a breeder, etc.) For some of them it's hard to get a picture that really does them justice.

My intermedius, for instance have an almost metallic sheen to their yellow-orange coloring that I can't get to show up in photographs. Very different from the strong but more waxy yellow of leucs, for instance. (Hmm, wish I were as good at descriptions as Patty...)

--Diane


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

I would highly reccomend vents as a first thumb. They are hardy, bold, and about as forgiving as a thumbnail frog gets. Scott MacDonald sells great vents . The ones I got from him are breeding like rabbits! Standard lamasi are frogs that I would wait on getting. They can be touchy frogs. I waited a few years before working with frogs like that, and am now delving into a lot of the rarer frogs now that I have 3 years in the hobby under my belt. Some people would consider that fast as well, although it really varies from person to person.

Jordan


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

thanks for all the responces! i guess these guys aren't as shy as i thought. plus if pumilio are pretty bold as well, that really opens up my options. there are so many morphs of pumilio, are pretty much all of them just as bold as others? i guess this decision is going to be pretty hard to decide on just one kind of frog, i want all of them! it will eventually prolly end up depending on price and availablility. also, if any of these aren't particularly suitable to partial noobs (like mentioned about the lamasi above), let me know. i have about 1 year of experience with leucs and that's it. no experience with thumbs or pumilio yet.


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## mnchartier (May 9, 2005)

Not trying to hijack this thread but I think this may benifit you also.

Ed,

You stated a highly vegetated viv will help make them use more of the viv, could you post a pic of that 75 gallon to illustrate how much vegetation you are refering to plus I love to see others thumb vivs. I also am looking into venturing into thumbs in the next 6 months.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

While not true thumbs, I would reccomend red or orange Bastimentos as a first smaller frog, they are the boldest members of my collection, and if the conditions are right, they'll produce froglets for you with minmal effort on your part.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Here is my 75 gallon viv for the vents, I will see if I can't get a better picture tonight after my botany final..........eeek










Pumilio viv









When I say thick, I mean THICK  I like lots of vegetation and so do the frogs. Check out the rest of my pics here http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/t ... ?album=248

Take care,

ed parker


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## mnchartier (May 9, 2005)

Thanks for the pictures, that is pretty dense, looks great. Thanks for the example.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2005)

Adam, 
im a little ahead of you, but in a very similar position. i have a 37 gallon tank just waiting to be set up for a nice display frog. 

IMO, i didnt want to jump right into pumilio, even though some are considered good beginner small frogs. 

i set up a 29 for my first thumbs, which happen to be vents. as stated above, they are a very forgiving small frog. 

i have their home fairly heavily planted as i tend to agree with Ed. it makes for a much more comfortable home, and animal. i think this is true with all of the species i keep, from fish, to crustaceans, to herps. its a very simple concept, and IME a true one.

my 37 will house either imis, or some form of bastis, but for now i am very happy with my vents. i purchased all 6 from Dave and Erin at Ed's Fly Meat. i have seen Dave post of the boldness of his vents, and i cant comment on others, but mine are very bold, and very active.

as for color.....

here is a pic of one of mine. you can see the color and pattern its legs real well here.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/ ... 053_PB.jpg

another in the shade, so you dont have the light reflecting. you can see the back color much better here.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/ ... 044_PB.jpg

here is a pic of the viv i keep them in. it constantly growing in, and im sure will be very dense in due time 
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/ ... 060_PB.jpg

and for any one interested here is a link to all the pics of these frogs and their home.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v618/free ... 0Paradise/


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

you weren't lying, that 75 is dense! looks great!

2mnytnx, first off i never would have understood your name if i didn't just type it out lol. anyways, nice pictures! they look adorable. if i'm not mistaken, vents are among the cheaper of the 'smaller frogs' (is there a general name for all the smaller frogs including thumbs and pumilio?). if they are, they make a very good candidate for my first thumbs. they're exceptionally awesome looking. 

here's another question about the smaller frogs... how well do they do in tanks with water? from what i know darts aren't exactly swimmers, and there have been cases about drownings sometimes. what about these little guys? with all the jumping around they do would i have to worry about them falling into a pond? of course if i had a little pond it would have a slope out that they could crawl up easily, but if they land in a deeper area would they be able to swim ok to the shallow area?


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

That tank looks like thumbnail paradise! Another beauty no one has mentioned yet (I don't think) is D. reticlulatus, which like the imitators, also have an irridescent sheen that photos don't do justice to. They are also the tiniest of all thumbs, very active and quite bold. Mine seem to be more ruby red than deep orange one sees in photos, which gives them a striking gem-like quality They are not cheap, however. If you get these for a first thumb, try for juveniles or adults, as the froglets can be pretty delicate. Once past the froglet stage however, they are about as hardy as any. One thing that startled me about them is the size of their eggs, which are comparatively so huge one wonders where the mama stored them before laying.

Darts swim quite capably, even the thumbs. As long as you have an egress, they will not drown. Even without an egress, the thumbs are efficient glass climbers and can get out that way.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

as far as a cheaper frog, thay only cost me about $50. i see them all the time in the classifieds for around that or and even a little less.

i have a small river in my 29 that runs across the land to the front and down the front glass. its about 2 1/2" deep at the bottom corner. ive seen numerous dives off of the cliff into that section (trying to get away from the camera :lol: ) and they dont have any trouble. they dont even appear to really "swim". they seem to just run across the top of the water. ive seen mine climb the vertical face of the waterfall and the glass to exit with no trouble at all.


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

haha that's cool, i guess i'll plan on a water feature then.

and only $50? that's even cheaper than i thought. i never really looked them up, but i figured at least about 75 so that's sweet. i guess i've just been looking at too many pumilio which are always over 100 a piece.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

:lol: 

that was one of the key reasons i started with them. my wife even wants me to have more experience with thumbs before i keep some $150 frogs :mrgreen:


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

yeah i just looked up their price from the same guy i bought my leucs, and they are just $45. it's crazy i thought they were a lot more. here's another question that i can't seem to find any info on... how well do they do in groups? if i bought 6, would i keep all six, or would i have to weed out males/females because of aggression as they grow?


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

that is another species specific question. What species are you looking into??? 

Vents can be kept in large groups, no problems. Imitators, females have a tendency to eat others eggs, fantasticus so far seem to be good in a group, pumilio definitely not a group unless you have a LARGE vivarium, as males like to drowned each other, and females eat each others eggs. Not sure what else you may be looking into, but if you post the specific species, that would work for us 

ed parker


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

sorry i guess i didn't clarify that i was still talking about the vents. they seem like they would be my best bet, because i only read good things about them, they're cute, hardy, and they're cheap too. especially now you say they do well in groups i'll prolly end up with them.

i'm curious about pumilio, if the males don't get along, how would you purchase them? would you have to buy a sexed pair, that's even more money.

thanks for the info


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

It just depends on the ferocity of the males in question. (Hard to imagine a 1/2" frog being ferocious if you've never seen it, though.) I've kept 3 separate pairs of males in different enclosures together temporarily with minimal visible effects. There will generally be an agressor and a sumissive, but as long as there are plenty of hide spots, I haven't seen a problem.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Vents are great, but don't rule out imitators, or the intermedius. I find that my intermedius are far more bold than the vents.


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

My first thumbs were retics. I bought 3 of them about a week ago because they looked so tempting in their containers and they were only $100 each....and the vendor accepted credit cards. I purchased them at about 2 months old and theyre doing pretty good, they're in their individual gladware container for the time being until i construct their viv and give the plants some time to grow. Do retics do well in trios or would I be better off selling the extra one if i end up with a pair? 

Mike


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Can't answer Mike's question, but I have a comment/question about pumilio. My son's first small pdf's were 2 Bastimentos, and they proved to be very hardy, but unfortunately turned out to both be males. Our quest to locate a female Basti has so far been fruitless. It seems to me that very few obligate egg-feeder offspring are ever available, as opposed to the more easily raised true thumbnails. So I would not be so quick to include pumilio in the general category of frogs for which the desired sex can be traded if you end up with all males. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong...

--Diane


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

imitators and intermedius aren't necessarily ruled out, but being realistic, with the vents costing so much less i'd prolly get them. 

i plan on setting up a tank around 30gal, so about 6 frogs would be nice. from what i read vents would do great in a setup like that, and would cost me about $270 (i wouldn't need shipping). imitators would cost about $480 (plus shipping), and i've read that the females would likey eat eachothers eggs. intermedius, though i love their looks, would be even more at about $750 (plus shipping), and i've read that you should have a bit of thumb experience first. That's just going by Dr Frye's pricing.

does anybody have both leucs and vents? i'm curious if the two could be compared by how often they are visible. i see my leucs a lot, and i'd prolly see them more if the plants were grown in more. i'd hope to see vents as least just as often. i'd have more of them too so that'd also make a difference.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

i have 6 vents in my 29. i can see at least 4 of them at any time i look into the viv. around mid day there are usually at least 4 right on the glass and the other 2 are always visible. ive said before i cant speak for other people's vents, but the ones from Ed's Fly Meat are definatly *bold*!


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