# my communal tinc tad raising observation



## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

I tried raising some of my alanis tads comunally since I was getting alot of eggs from them at first . The first couple clutches I raised individually in cups and they all morphed out fast with no sls and in almost two months give or take a couple days . 
With the communally raised ones I didn't have many deaths from cannibilism but after two months only one of them had tiny rear legs . And since the tub they were in was really starting to smell ripe I decided to move them to individual containers about two weeks go. In less than a week all but two had popped and grew big rear legs and one popped all four and is almost ready to walk out on its own and one other has small front legs already . Its amazing how much faster they grew by themselves . The tads were big but they just were taking alot longer to pop any legs when raised together . I'm guessing that it would have taken 30-50% longer raised this way .
So I guess they will be getting their own cup from now on .


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

in a large tub its harder for them to find food, that is why they take longer, plus teh temp becomes harder to regulate as well, i noticed that when i raise tads in a 16 oz container they take longer then in a 20 onz cup that has more of a funnel shape to it, the reason is because the food concentrates more and its easier for them to find.


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

This is an interesting observation, Mark. But what does getting them out of the water faster really mean? From my own experiences with both methods, I've noted that individual rearing will get the frogs out faster but smaller, while communal rearing yields bigger froglets but with longer morphing times. There are surely other factors involved; food composition, temperature, water quality. However, given that these are constants, how do we determine which is the best method and backed up by what reason? Years ago I remember a similar thread discussed.

I'd like to bring forward some thoughts on what this really means for the longevity and overall health of the froglets. How fast do they start eating? and growth rates?

I dont mean to play devil's advocate, but I'm sure that by some hobbyists standards, the faster they morph, the faster the turn around time to get them sold. This, I dont really agree with. (just my humble opinion) I've personally seen hobbyists/sellers claim their frogs are a couple months old and upon seeing the froglet, it can be compared to a freshly morphed specimen. The question I then ask myself is, how were the tadpoles raised?

Retrospectively, do breeders really care about time as much as they care about volume? Communal rearing may be more cost effective by space constraints. So I guess it goes both ways. 

But if we really care about the frogs, which is a better method?

I've noticed that the larger froglets begin to eat larger prey, "sooner". I suppose that only makes sense. But then again, where/when do they get their most important nutritional source? At tadpole stage, or after? I personally prefer communal rearing with the idea that they grow bigger, thus morphing bigger. I know that I "may" lose one or two tadpoles due to cannibalism, but this is hardly the case if I provide an adequate food source and hiding spots. From a more "natural" perspective, I'd prefer to let the stronger tadpoles survive as, (perhaps) nature had intended. This I can live with. Whatever the delta is in time that the tadpole is in the water, I can offset this with healthier froglets that eat better and get bigger, faster. I'm not claiming this to be the "better" method, as that's defined by each hobbyist's intentions, space and, or time restrictions. I'm merely sharing my own experiences. I hope I'm not coming across in the wrong light. I figure this hobby belongs to us and sharing our own methods only makes it better for our animals. 

Quite honestly, I'm currently running both systems at the moment and will do my best in trying to note my observations, as well. 

Best of luck, and thanks for sparking up my own thoughts on the subject.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Julio said:


> in a large tub its harder for them to find food, that is why they take longer, plus teh temp becomes harder to regulate as well, i noticed that when i raise tads in a 16 oz container they take longer then in a 20 onz cup that has more of a funnel shape to it, the reason is because the food concentrates more and its easier for them to find.


It's been noted several times (I'm pretty sure) that tinc tads emit growth inhibiting substances. I highly doubt that finding food over a 5sq" is that much harder than over 3sq".


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

I love the insight for both sides. All the responses in this thread were very well thought out. Unfortunately, all the nice opinions and viewpoints on the subject will make little difference when it comes time for me to raise tads. It may sound a little foolish, but I live in a rather busy household, and I fear that raising tads individually will eventually result in a few accidents of someone knocking tad cups over on occasion. For this reason, I think it will be safer and less stressful to allow the tads to grow in a communal setting. That is more or less my only reason for it though.


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

Eric , The main reason I moved them from the communal tank back to the individual containers was because of the smell . I  did a couple water changes but the tub they were in but it still smelled bad ! That was when I noticed it was taking them longer to devolop their legs . They were all fed at the same time and the ones in the tub were probably actually fed more than the ones in the cups since I didn't want any of them going with out food . The basic tad size was the same as the ones raised in cups but it was just taking them longer to devolop legs . And the size at which they both crawled out on land on their own they were about the same size . 

Not that them taking longer to come "out of the water" makes any difference since if your going to sell any you still have to let them grow at least a couple months before selling them and a couple weeks isn't going to make any difference . And I wouldn't think of sending a froglet out that isn't big enough . 

I agree that faster isn't always better , If we could get the tads to morph out in half the time but they morphed out only half as big what good would that be ?

I also agree that a froglet that is bigger when it morphs out will be able to eat bigger "prey" earlier , that is fruit flys , and getting dusted flys and vitamins earlier that means they should grow faster and be healthier . 
The Alanis were eating hydei at just over a month old . 

That is also like a couple of pumilio froglets I have growing now . While they were just eating springtails they grew slow but as soon as they were started on eating melo's they started growing noticably faster on the bigger food . And now getting more vitimins.

Nothing you said "came across in the wrong light " Speak your mind ! That is how we learn . As long as people don't get all uppity , condescending and insulting I have no problem with that .


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## macspoison (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm actually trying both as well. 

When I left the breeding part of this in the 90's it was all done in cups as far as I was taught, but since then I have purchased tads a few times from breeders and one of the groups were raised in totes. Azureus and Auratus are the majority of the containers with a few others as well. All seperated with their kind etc. 

I noticed the auratus tads are HUGE compared to the ones in 16oz cups. Nothing has been chewed up as far as my count has gone! Knock on wood..

But I have also noticed the length of time it is taking for these guys to "Pop". I will continue with what is in the totes but may only use the method with the auratus in the future.
Mac


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

Would anyone here mind posting a pic of the size containers they use for communal tad raising? It will still be quite a few months before I have to worry about it, but I am pretty curious.


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## GSXR_MURRHEE (Sep 16, 2006)

I've always raised my tads communally, and lately I tried a few clutches individually. I gotta say, my leucs that are raised communally come out twice as big as the ones raised individually. Even my Azureus come out noticeably bigger than the ones I've tried raising individually. They're not quite 2x bigger like the leucs, but you can tell they're bigger. 

It definitely takes a little longer, but I think it's worth it. You might lose a few to cannibalism, but I'm all for survival of the fittest. When I sell these guys, I want to make sure people are getting a strong healthy frog and not a weakling that barely got by because it didn't have any competition. IMO lol. 

yumpster- I use the shoebox size sterilite containers, and put one clutch in each container. I'll try to find a pic a little later.


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## macspoison (Oct 19, 2008)

I use the shoe box size as well. $1 ea for the most part.

The auratus come out almost as big as the frogs I buy from a local breeder. They are huge, I may have to start taking better notes/pics!
Mac


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

My bins are about 24" x 36" x 7" from the container store with a small sponge filter kinda like (Repti Clear Terrarium Filter F150: Black Jungle Terrarium Supply), and tons of pothos and salvinias.

Each one can house up to a dozen tadpoles.

Here's a sample/small set up I have at work (w/o filter).:
It's a poor picture taken with my iPhone


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Catfur said:


> It's been noted several times (I'm pretty sure) that tinc tads emit growth inhibiting substances. I highly doubt that finding food over a 5sq" is that much harder than over 3sq".


Although it sounds like its not that much of a difference in space it really is for such a small creature such as a tadpole, the water volume is the same


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## GSXR_MURRHEE (Sep 16, 2006)

Snapped a few quick pics earlier. I hate to say it but, these are actually some of the biggest tads I've raised individually. In these pics you can tell there is a little bit of difference, but usually I find more of a difference than this. 


In this pic, all 3 tads have back legs.









In this two, the tad with no legs is being raised communally and is as big as the individually raised tads with legs

















comparison of the biggest individually raised tad vs. one of the communal raised ones


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Sean, tads raised in a communal setting will usually morph out bigger because they are raised in a much bigger water volume, so the water quality more often than not will be much better and allow the tads to grow faster. I did a tad experiment a few years ago, i can't fidn the link on the board, but it was with GL lamasi tads in which the water was changed at different intervals and the one that received the most water changes was much bigger than the others.


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