# Mass of worms



## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

So I have been seeding my tanks with springs and iso's in prep for frogs. As part of this seeding I have been sprinkling bug burger on a leaf in the vivs to provide a food source. 

Today when looking over everything I noticed that there was a writhing mass of white worms in the bug burger. I've seen them individually before and figured that they are just the nematodes I've read about, but the concentrated mass of them raised a little concern and just wanted to make sure I'm ok or if I need to take any measures. I'm fairly certain everything is ok but wanted to hear from the experts first. 

Thoughts?


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Here's a better pic.


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## Bunsincunsin (Feb 11, 2008)

Grindal worms maybe?


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Bunsincunsin said:


> Grindal worms maybe?


Thanks for the response. I don't think they are grindal worms, only because I think they are massed like that only for the food source plus the up close pics I found on your search link don't resemble the worms. These guys are white, nearly translucent, and have a little band in the middle of their bodies that's reminiscent of earth worms. From what I can tell the grindal worms are lacking that little band.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Like this one?

Interesting side note: nematodes represent 80% of all individual animals on earth!


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

aspidites73 said:


> View attachment 47114
> 
> 
> Like this one?


Looks close, although I'd say the white band on the guys in my viv is roughly 1/3 of the way down the body.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

It is really difficult (near impossible) to id what you have without being able to observe microstructures of the animal. I'm leaning with bunsincunsin in that they're grindal worms. Without microscopy, they make the most sense. The photo in my previous post is a grindal worm species that is breed in aquaculture. Nemetodes, almost by rule, have a distinctive head, and other diagnostic body features. Unfortunately, microscopy must be employed to see them. Assuming you used proper sanitation technique, the only other way they could be introduced are via your insect vectors (isopods and springtails). Of that's the case, it's nothing your not going to give your frogs anyway.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

aspidites73 said:


> It is really difficult (near impossible) to id what you have without being able to observe microstructures of the animal. I'm leaning with bunsincunsin in that they're grindal worms. Without microscopy, they make the most sense. The photo in my previous post is a grindal worm species that is breed in aquaculture. Nemetodes, almost by rule, have a distinctive head, and other diagnostic body features. Unfortunately, microscopy must be employed to see them. Assuming you used proper sanitation technique, the only other way they could be introduced are via your insect vectors (isopods and springtails). Of that's the case, it's nothing your not going to give your frogs anyway.


Well, definitely not a distinctive head that I can see.

I understand that it can be nearly impossible to identify without a macro lens/microscope, but I'm limited to the tools on hand. 

With the band on the body as I've described, could it be possible that they're baby earthworms?


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

I had those guys in a dwarf white isopod culture. They didnt seem to affect the isos much. They continued to do what. They were doin unphased.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

The band you are referring to is called the clitellum. It is a excretorynorgan that produces mucous. Here is a pic of a baby earthworm. I don't think it is what you have.









I know a mass of worms is considered cause for alarm, possibly a carrect one. I also understand you are dealing with the resources you have. If you want to err on the side of caution however, you must observe or have them observed microscopically.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

GP dynamite said:


> I had those guys in a dwarf white isopod culture. They didnt seem to affect the isos much. They continued to do what. They were doin unphased.


I'm more worried about them eating any eggs that I hope to eventually have in there. 

I guess I can pull this leaf out with that many on there and cut down on the population for a minute or two.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

aspidites73 said:


> The band you are referring to is called the clitellum. It is a excretorynorgan that produces mucous. Here is a pic of a baby earthworm. I don't think it is what you have.
> 
> View attachment 47122
> 
> ...


Yeah, close but not quite there.

Thanks for the help, I'll just pull that leaf out and keep an eye on things.


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

nemerteans(sp) basically a nematode.. But if those are the ones I think they are.. they are fine. The frogs should even snack on them. You will probably never get rid of them though. One reason to sanitize all your soils, leaf litter, and plants before putting in a viv.. They feed on decaying stuff.. Just like springs and iso's do.. and they may or may not mess with eggs.. Ive seen them devour the jelly left around after tad transport though, so who knows?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Out of curiosity, what do you think they are? Also, and FYI, Nemertea is a ribbon worm, or proboscis worm. Nematodes are a round worm. Calling Nemertea as "basically a nematode" would be like calling a frog basically an alligator.



Nismo95 said:


> nemerteans(sp) basically a nematode.. But if those are the ones I think they are.. they are fine. The frogs should even snack on them. You will probably never get rid of them though. One reason to sanitize all your soils, leaf litter, and plants before putting in a viv.. They feed on decaying stuff.. Just like springs and iso's do.. and they may or may not mess with eggs.. Ive seen them devour the jelly left around after tad transport though, so who knows?


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

aspidites73 said:


> Out of curiosity, what do you think they are? Also, and FYI, Nemertea is a ribbon worm, or proboscis worm. Nematodes are a round worm. Calling Nemertea as "basically a nematode" would be like calling a frog basically an alligator.


I am in no means saying anything I say is correct. lol. I am just giving you terminology used when I have described the same thing. I have googled images of both and while share some similarities are both totally different from one another. I would guess those white worms would be nemertareans or however its spelled. Put some yeast on a wet leaf and get it real soupy like.. Leave the lights off for a bit, I would bet coming back 1-3 hours after lights out you will have a ton on a leaf..


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## BALDITO (Sep 17, 2012)

mindcrash said:


> Here's a better pic.



I have exactly the same thing in everything I culture. Im trying to harvest a few bugs then tossing everything!


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Vinegar eels maybe?? They usually only turn up in fruit fly cultures, but maybe that's how they were introduced?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

aspidites73 said:


> Assuming you used proper sanitation technique, the only other way they could be introduced are via your insect vectors (isopods and springtails). .


The only way to avoid colonization by free living nematodes in an enclosure would require you to thoroughly autoclave everything including live plants and to have it sealed against any soil dwelling invertebrates from getting into the enclosure (fungus gnats for example could transfer them)... 

Free living nematodes are extremely common and nothing to really be concerned about. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nismo95 said:


> nemerteans(sp) They feed on decaying stuff.. Just like springs and iso's do.. and they may or may not mess with eggs.. Ive seen them devour the jelly left around after tad transport though, so who knows?


and the jelly left after the eggs hatch is decaying..... which is different from good eggs that have yet to hatch.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Agreed! At some point, the slippery slope of 'the bubble boy syndrome', becomes grossly apparent. My expertise is with the indo-australian Boidae. Husbandry to include nearly sterile technique was much easier, if not the professional norm. Life will find a way. In this hobby, the best you can hope for is that you're a non-contributor. Realistically, we're only slimming our chances.



Ed said:


> The only way to avoid colonization by free living nematodes in an enclosure would require you to thoroughly autoclave everything including live plants and to have it sealed against any soil dwelling invertebrates from getting into the enclosure (fungus gnats for example could transfer them)...
> 
> Free living nematodes are extremely common and nothing to really be concerned about.
> 
> ...


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

mindcrash said:


> I'm more worried about them eating any eggs that I hope to eventually have in there.
> 
> I guess I can pull this leaf out with that many on there and cut down on the population for a minute or two.


I have these (if not something really similar) in my viv. I've never seen them go for an egg that hadn't already succumbed to mold.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

aspidites73 said:


> Out of curiosity, what do you think they are? Also, and FYI, Nemertea is a ribbon worm, or proboscis worm. Nematodes are a round worm. Calling Nemertea as "basically a nematode" would be like calling a frog basically an alligator.


Reminds me of:

"To call a tomato a vegetable is somewhat wrong; to call it a suspension bridge is very wrong."

Actually, in phylogenetic terms, even further apart than a frog and an alligator, who are both chordates and tetrapods. (I can't help it, I still try to explain to people that "insect" and "bug" are not interchangeable, that rabbits are not rodents, etc...)


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Yer basic (Chinese) alligator:

http://www.dannesdjur.com/bilder/polypedates_dennysi_1.jpg


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Groundhog said:


> Reminds me of:
> 
> "To call a tomato a vegetable is somewhat wrong; to call it a suspension bridge is very wrong."
> 
> Actually, in phylogenetic terms, even further apart than a frog and an alligator, who are both chordates and tetrapods. (I can't help it, I still try to explain to people that "insect" and "bug" are not interchangeable, that rabbits are not rodents, etc...)


I am constantly remembering another good example, and as the story goes, some animal rights drum beaters had brought before the court that lobster (Homarus americanus) were not an insect, but a fish, and entitled to the rights inherant to all animals to be free of cruelty (they were referring to the practice of throwing a live lobster into boiling water). They were reminded that a lobster would be more correct to call humans a fish than us, referring to them as the same. Save that a bug is also an animal.

No worries on the frog to alligator correction. I didn't want to extend it too far as to lose my point.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Groundhog said:


> Reminds me of:
> 
> "To call a tomato a vegetable is somewhat wrong; to call it a suspension bridge is very wrong."


Sorry to interrupt...but that struck me as extremely funny! I have to remember that one! Lol!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Aspidites: Please, I was not correcting you--but piling on Nismo

Wendy: Quoted for a reason--it's from _TBBT_.

I hope we see some basic alligators at Frog Day Oh, I too believe they are (harmless) nematodes...

P. S.

Nismo--I'm just funnin' ya--no offense intended...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Well, do we not see similarly faulty folk taxonomy behind many religious food taboos?

--Crustaceans are fish;
--the pangolin is a lizard;
--the camel is not an artiodactyl;
--the tapir is a swine--etc.?

Although one could argue that modern, literate people should know better.. ; 

Regarding lobster, I do wish there was a more humane method. Maybe it is quick, but it just seems awful. (Full disclosure: I am allergic to crustaceans.)




aspidites73 said:


> I am constantly remembering another good example, and as the story goes, some animal rights drum beaters had brought before the court that lobster (Homarus americanus) were not an insect, but a fish, and entitled to the rights inherant to all animals to be free of cruelty (they were referring to the practice of throwing a live lobster into boiling water). They were reminded that a lobster would be more correct to call humans a fish than us, referring to them as the same. Save that a bug is also an animal.
> 
> No worries on the frog to alligator correction. I didn't want to extend it too far as to lose my point.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> Regarding lobster, I do wish there was a more humane method. Maybe it is quick, but it just seems awful. (Full disclosure: I am allergic to crustaceans.)


There is a good discussion on it here 



 jump to about 5 minutes... 

Ed


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> There is a good discussion on it here Good Eats S04E04 Crustacean Nation II: Claws (Lobster) - YouTube jump to about 5 minutes...
> 
> Ed


Gotta love Alton Brown.


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## joel grassmann (Apr 26, 2012)

I get them things to an they get into my egg dishes dont know that they harm them but I always remove them before putting the eggs in there next container,be interesting to know grindles are what I have been told mine are an they look the same as yours.


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