# pumilio in 10 verts?



## rgwheels (Feb 19, 2008)

Hey, quick question? 

What pumilio's do well in 10 verts? Are there condition differences for these that I should be aware of? I'm thinking that due to my very limited space I can only work with 10/20 verts. 

Should I avoid pumilio if this is the case all together?


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Alot of people keep pums in those size tanks. I have kept pums in 10gal verts with alot of success and plan to get some more soon again which will more than likely go in 10gal verts.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Almirantes are an awesome prolific breeder thatll do great in a 10gal


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

I have pums in both 10 and 20 gal verts and it seems i get more sucess out of the 10 gal for some reason.


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## rgwheels (Feb 19, 2008)

cairo11 said:


> Almirantes are an awesome prolific breeder thatll do great in a 10gal


Hey, those are awesome! I'll have to keep that in the back of my mind. I'm about a year off before this tank comes (I know I plan way to far in advance!). I'm going to start building the viv in a few months. I want this thing to be perfect!

Thanks for all the helpful feedback!


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## ilovejaden (Jan 6, 2011)

Id have to second the almirante comment. Easy to breed, and fairly easy to care for.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Would it be best to keep a trio or a pair?


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

B-NICE said:


> Would it be best to keep a trio or a pair?


Def a pair. Too small for 3 frogs. Just enough for two. Eventually one female becomes an alpha and beats up on. The other and leaves it without much room to run and cover up.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

ok 5 gallon rule still applies to this. Silly me....


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I have come to not rely much on rules of thumb. Rules of thumb for tank size have gone from 5gal to 10 to 20 and back around again since I have been keeping frogs.. which in the scheme of things is not really all that long.

Anyway I have moved frogs from 50g to 15g and from 10g to 30g as I learn what each group needs, via personal trial and error, combined with learning from the boards, other hobbyists etc. It is also just as important if not more so --what you do with the space rather then the size of the space.


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## rgwheels (Feb 19, 2008)

srrrio said:


> I have come to not rely much on rules of thumb. Rules of thumb for tank size have gone from 5gal to 10 to 20 and back around again since I have been keeping frogs.. which in the scheme of things is not really all that long.
> 
> Anyway I have moved frogs from 50g to 15g and from 10g to 30g as I learn what each group needs, via personal trial and error, combined with learning from the boards, other hobbyists etc. It is also just as important if not more so --what you do with the space rather then the size of the space.


Thanks that makes a lot of sense! If I decided to go the trio route, then I would likely need to go 20 (those of you who work with almirante)?


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

I would never house pumilio in a 10 gallon. I have seen froglets being bullied, out-competed, and dwindle away in tanks that are more than twice the size of a 10gallon. These tanks are well planted/hardscaped with plenty of hides and tons of leaf-litter. While having two tiny frogs in a 10 doesn't sound too cramped, eventually if all is on point with your husbandry, several froglets will come ootw. Now all of a sudden you have 5-6 frogs forraging in a 10 vert footprint. There will be competition and stress that I feel could be somewhat alleviated provided the frogs have more room. Am I saying it can't be done...no, but I will say that when it comes to pumilio the less experience you have with them, the larger your tank should be. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...robates-pumilio-experiences-keeping-tips.html


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

rgwheels said:


> Thanks that makes a lot of sense! If I decided to go the trio route, then I would likely need to go 20 (those of you who work with almirante)?


I would stay away from the trio idea, it is much harder to keep an eye on 3 that could potentially have aggression issues, egg eating, etc. Do you have an opportunity to visit someone who has some different dart frogs and get a good look at some pumilio in person?


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## asid61 (Mar 18, 2012)

randommind said:


> I would never house pumilio in a 10 gallon. I have seen froglets being bullied, out-competed, and dwindle away in tanks that are more than twice the size of a 10gallon. These tanks are well planted/hardscaped with plenty of hides and tons of leaf-litter. While having two tiny frogs in a 10 doesn't sound too cramped, eventually if all is on point with your husbandry, several froglets will come ootw. Now all of a sudden you have 5-6 frogs forraging in a 10 vert footprint. There will be competition and stress that I feel could be somewhat alleviated provided the frogs have more room. Am I saying it can't be done...no, but I will say that when it comes to pumilio the less experience you have with them, the larger your tank should be.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...robates-pumilio-experiences-keeping-tips.html


Wouldn't you move froglets to new tanks as soon as you find them?


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

asid61 said:


> Wouldn't you move froglets to new tanks as soon as you find them?


Nope...I leave them in with their parents as long as I can.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

i have a 1.2 trio of almirantes in a 18x18x24 and they use EVERY SQUARE INCH of that tank. So I'd say bigger is definitely better. Plus, they are prolific breeders (as I've come to learn), and 10g will suck when there's a few froglets hopping around, pissing off the parents


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

My trios are in either 18x18x36 or smaller pums in 18x18x24, IMO a 10g for a permanent viv is to small. I use the 10g for froglets or QT.
A 10g is too small....
Pums and others are more happy and utilize all of the space of the viv, ie glass living containers to be in a cramped space.
Ever been on a cruise? Imagine that room being your home?


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

well... What about the 10gallon for those who like to pull froglets on first sight and have succeeded continuosly doing so? 

I have heard from a handful of froggers that had a pair in 18cube+ yielding zero results then placing them in a temp 10gal as they tried to redo or draw up new housing only to see this pair breed like mice in this smaller tank?

I being one of these froggers I speak of. Example.... My escudos.... Zero tads! In 18cube + ....4 batches in a 10gal vert. Both look fat and happy. My .02


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

My pumilio have done much better keeping them in 18 x 18 x 24 exo terras.I like to keep the froglets in with parents for 4 months before pulling them. Thick leaf litter bottom and lots of broms/plants give the different age froglets places to hide and rest from any aggression from parents/siblings.You can pull babies out and raise seperate with good sucess but if left with parents for a 4 month or so period i find that these will turn out to be better breeders and better at taking care of their offspring when the time comes. Just my opinion and experience with these guys-even with the smaller varieties. Good luck.


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## tahir tareen (Dec 17, 2009)

i had a pair of cristobal pums in a ten gallon for about eight months, i had one clutch successfully morph out two froglets. One was for sure healthy and hopped all around the tank then after a week or so i never saw it again. I feel the parents stressed it out. 

After that i moved the pair two a 29 gal. with lots of floor space. As of this week i have 7 offspring from them, four are freshly morphed and three are 6 months old in another tank. I feel like i should remove the four new ones since i have had best luck with that.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

CAPTAIN RON said:


> My pumilio have done much better keeping them in 18 x 18 x 24 exo terras.I like to keep the froglets in with parents for 4 months before pulling them. Thick leaf litter bottom and lots of broms/plants give the different age froglets places to hide and rest from any aggression from parents/siblings.You can pull babies out and raise seperate with good sucess but if left with parents for a 4 month or so period i find that these will turn out to be better breeders and better at taking care of their offspring when the time comes. Just my opinion and experience with these guys-even with the smaller varieties. Good luck.


Everything youve said makes 100% sense.... But... What about when you see parents cOmpeting with their young even for springtails? 90% of my breeding pairs are in 18/24 exos/meds. But theres a few pairs that have been in such tanks for 1yr + and give nothing.... But become prolific in 10/20gals. Forced to breed or simply higher comfort in a smaller setting? As for froglets, some I pull and most I dont. Those I pull, I really dont see a successful breeding / parenting future with them when mom and dad are pinning them inside brom axels under water or constantly kicking them when they feed.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

cairo11 said:


> 90% of my breeding pairs are in 18/24 exos/meds. But theres a few pairs that have been in such tanks for 1yr + and give nothing.... But become prolific in 10/20gals. Forced to breed or simply higher comfort in a smaller setting?.


I feel that too many other variables (temps, humidity, lighting, plant choice, deposition sites, ect.)may have changed along with the enclosure size to conclude that size alone sparked the increase in breeding. 

I do not think we should be encouraging new pumilio keepers to house their frogs in 10g verts, especially by planting seeds that they will breed like mice by doing so. 

The bigger the tank the more room for both mistakes and success.


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