# Confused about pums.



## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

What is the deal with the basti pums? If you have two reds with their offspring ever include an orange or a yellow or even a white? Is it considered producing hybrids if you breed a yellow and an orange or a red and a yellow?


----------



## VTHokie (Jun 28, 2005)

It is possible to breed two of the same color and get another color. I believe they all carry genes for other colors. So an orange basti may be carrying yellow genes and produce a yellow offspring.


----------



## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

So what about the rest of the question?


----------



## VTHokie (Jun 28, 2005)

No it is not considered a hybrid to breed two with a different color. Some people may say you shouldnt do it but I, along with others, think that it is fine. If two oranges can produce a yellow I dont see the problem with putting a yellow and orange together. The same goes for other combinations in my opinion.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

it depends, from what i have heard the red bastis from red frog beach are uniform in color and dot size and there are no other color morphs in their location. there are also red bastis amongst the golddust and other colors toward the middle of the island. if you have a red basti imported from red frog beach and you cross it w/ a mainland gold dust that may be considered crossing morphs. thing is that you`ll never know unless you can track down the import date and location. well i guess the date doesnt matter unless it refers to the location.
i currently have a yellow/orange female i`m thinking of putting in w/ a goldust male. reason being i had 2 reds that produce orange offspring and 2 orange adults that were cherry red as froglets produce cherry red froglets that may fade as adults. i just really dont know what to call anything when my reds only produce orange and my orange produce reds. i cant wait to see what my golddust yellows throw after the orange froglet out of white bastis thread.
i havent got anything from the new shipments yet other than golddust/yellows but i dont see why you couldnt pair a red/orange/yellow/golddust from this shipment other then what do you call the offspring? that`s the only problem i`m having w/ putting a male golddust to my yellow/orange female. i dont know whether to call them golddust or yellow or orange. if someone wanted bastis i would then have very diverse lines but it depends on what color you want. now that i`m seeing reds from my orange pairs and orange from red froglets etc. it`s only getting more confusing as to what to sell the offspring as. if i sell a red froglet that turns orange i`m being misleading or orange babies from red adults it is also misleading if you want orange offspring, they may produce reds for all i know.


----------



## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Though a few others who have also spent time on Bastimentos disagree, I think the population on Bastimentos is panmictic. For me they are one 'morph' from one population- regardless of color. Check out the Summers papers if you want to read up on this. As long as the frogs are all from Bastimentos, you are not creating hybrids or doing the frogs any diservice. 

Cheers,

Afemoralis


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "2 orange adults that were cherry red as froglets produce cherry red froglets that may fade as adults. i just really dont know what to call anything when my reds only produce orange and my orange produce re"endsnip

This may also be due to the carotenoids in the diet as a significant portion of the color of the frogs (and the froglets) is due to the carotenoids sequestered in the chromatophores. 


Ed


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I have heard that the fine spot/no spot Basti should be considered separate populations. Comment?

It is common to hear that large spot Basti dont breed true to their color...with lots of variability in offspring and even more interesting changes in color over maturation of the froglet to adult. (nutritional as Ed suggests, perhaps)

Might wish to ask a few of the larger breeders (in addition to Aaron of course :wink: ) as I have had some conversations with them in the past on this subject..(Rich at BJ would come to mind)

best,

S

I will say my children look nothing like me or my wife...but a mix, right.
:wink:


----------



## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Crossing a 'red basti' with a 'yellow basti' may not be frowned on by a lot of hobbyists, but it may be frowned on by the bastis 
In Summers 1999, they tested visual mate preference by crossing two pumilio morphs under white light and under filtered blue light. Females prefered to mate with males of their own color morph under white light but under the blue light the effect went away indicating some degree of visual preference for their own 'morph.'

For more, see:
Summers et. al, 1999. Visual mate choice in poison frogs. _Proc. R. Soc. London B_ *266* 2141-2145

~B


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

well, i color feed. i dont know how the adults would loose their red and the babies would have it. if the parents were orange(started red) how can they produce red froglets. seems to me if they cant even get themselves red how can they do it for the froglets. out of my red pair they are red but their froglets are orange. again how can one orange pair not even keep their color but give it to the froglets and a red pair(being fed the same thing) can keep their color but not give it to the froglets.
seems more genetic though i know they can be turned up on color by feeding. even so my orange froglets from red p`s wont turn red.
i use color enhancor fish flake in crix not paprika.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

again, since they fade should i be calling them the color of the froglets or adults? and what if i put my goldust to an orange? what do i call the froglets then, regardless of color?
as for mate choice can flourescent lighting screw up mate choice?


----------



## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

> as for mate choice can flourescent lighting screw up mate choice?


I would say that it is possible (since just about anything is possible) but not probable. I suspect that color manipulation from fluorescent lights is minimal compared to other attributes of the frogs that would affect mate choice...

But...you never know, right?

~B


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

the reason i ask is because my bastis from red parents looked red to me till i stuck them under an ott light. they looked just as red as my man creek then i put the 2 next to each other under the ott light and the contrast was nite and day. put the red from orange parents under the ott and they remained red.
ott lites are supposed to give true color as sunlight.


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> again, since they fade should i be calling them the color of the froglets or adults? and what if i put my goldust to an orange? what do i call the froglets then, regardless of color?
> as for mate choice can flourescent lighting screw up mate choice?


Call them Basti's....provide a photo and let the buyer decide if they like them or not...


S 


I have a pair of orange basti...one stays bright orange and the other as it matured, turned cream/green hint....I started color supplementing with natuRose and the orange came back within a few weeks....so we can 'control' the color to a certain extent. I think if you see a white/cream basti I wouldnt assume it will breed true or even that it is 'only' color phase...

I think mate choice is dictated more in a viv by mate availability and less by "hey I dont like your color...I'm gonna pass you up" ;-)


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "well, i color feed. i dont know how the adults would loose their red and the babies would have it."endsnip

There may be differences in the ability of the adults to uptake and sequester carotenoids in the chromatophores. This needs to be looked into a little more but in at least some species (like E. tricolor) there appears to be a window where maximal color enhancement has to occur. The offspring particuarly in egg feeders would have it due to maternal sequestering of carotenoids in the feeder eggs (which would also deprive the female of access to the carotenoids as a pigment source). 

snip " if the parents were orange(started red) how can they produce red froglets. seems to me if they cant even get themselves red how can they do it for the froglets."endsnip

See above. 

snip "out of my red pair they are red but their froglets are orange. again how can one orange pair not even keep their color but give it to the froglets and a red pair(being fed the same thing) can keep their color but not give it to the froglets. "endsnip

The rate of loss of the pigments particuarly those that are converted to retinol can be variable depending on metabolic demand. 

snip "seems more genetic though i know they can be turned up on color by feeding."endsnip

It is possible (probable?) that there is some genetic component to color sequestering in pumilio given the variety of colors found in some populations. This could be as simple as a mutation in the affinity of a protien that supports transport carotenoids resulting in one being more readily transported than another. 

snip "even so my orange froglets from red p`s wont turn red. i use color enhancor fish flake in crix not paprika "endsnip

This would indicate that the carotenoids being supplied are not the ones utilized by the frogs for red pigment.... 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

kewl, that sheds a lot of light on the situation. 
man, you and i have to sit down and talk over a beverage of your choice sometime.


----------

