# ideal tank size for tinc's?



## JasonPannell (Mar 16, 2008)

hey guys,
i was wondering what the ideal tank footprint would be for tincs? not bare minimum. but a nice size for a pair. say 24x18? thank you


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

JasonPannell said:


> hey guys,
> i was wondering what the ideal tank footprint would be for tincs? not bare minimum. but a nice size for a pair. say 24x18? thank you


20 gal minimum, best with 50 gal or more. Tincs are far less arboreal than other darts, tanks should focus on floor space rather than vertical space. I use pothos, java moss, a small creeping plant, and some stacked slab stone hides. They love it, and are out and about ALL day! Best of luck!

JBear


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

jbherpin said:


> 20 gal minimum, best with 50 gal or more. Tincs are far less arboreal than other darts, tanks should focus on floor space rather than vertical space. U se pothos, java moss, a small creeping plant, and some stacked slab stone hides. They love it, and are out and about ALL day! Best of luck!
> 
> JBear


20 gal isn't the minimum. Tincs can be kept in 10 gals. 20 gal is ideal though. It's always the bigger the better though. So I would say go as big as you can! Good luck deciding. They're great frogs.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

heatfreakk3 said:


> 20 gal isn't the minimum. Tincs can be kept in 10 gals. 20 gal is ideal though. It's always the bigger the better though. So I would say go as big as you can! Good luck deciding. They're great frogs.


He said he was working with a pair, in which case a 10 gal, is not a minimum, it is cruel. Adult Tincs are quite large and quite active. IMO, a 10 is NOT enough space at all. 

JBear


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Relatively speaking, anything under a couple hundred gallons is "cruel". But it's not practical in most cases. 
Jason, what height are you thinking? You said 24x18 footprint, height is just as important in some cases. Exo terra makes a 24x18x18 that would be perfect for a pair or trio of tincs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> He said he was working with a pair, in which case a 10 gal, is not a minimum, it is cruel. Adult Tincs are quite large and quite active. IMO, a 10 is NOT enough space at all.
> 
> JBear


How do you define cruel?


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

No reason you cant keep most breeding Tinc pair's in a 10 gallon, with the right use of space and cover. Alot of guys on here do so quite well and I know of a couple who do so exclusively.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

jbherpin said:


> He said he was working with a pair, in which case a 10 gal, is not a minimum, it is cruel. Adult Tincs are quite large and quite active. IMO, a 10 is NOT enough space at all.
> 
> JBear


Umm a 10 gallon tank can be used to house a pair of tincs with out stress caused... I know MANY of people that have housed pairs of tincs in 10's and bred them just fine. I've also kept tinc pairs in 10's to and they do just fine. As long as it's well planted it is okay.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I think when it comes down to vivarium size, bigger tends to be better, especially when starting out. As you gain more experience with the frogs, and understand what they need better, you can create smaller vivariums with more usable space for them. I tend to go with the medium range exo terras (24x18x18,18x18x24,24x18x24) for tincs, but they can certainly be kept in something smaller.

That being said, I'd go with something in the 20-30 gallon + range. It will be easier to fit all the cool plants I'm sure you'll want in it, and a larger tank is typically easier to maintain.


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## Steve25 (Jan 29, 2010)

zBrinks said:


> I think when it comes down to vivarium size, bigger tends to be better, especially when starting out. As you gain more experience with the frogs, and understand what they need better, you can create smaller vivariums with more usable space for them. I tend to go with the medium range exo terras (24x18x18,18x18x24,24x18x24) for tincs, but they can certainly be kept in something smaller.
> 
> That being said, I'd go with something in the 20-30 gallon + range. It will be easier to fit all the cool plants I'm sure you'll want in it, and a larger tank is typically easier to maintain.


I agree with Zach. Bigger the better and especially more room to put awesome plants, and utilize all the vivarium.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

When I first got my two azureus I put them in a ten gallon. They were healthy as can be, but stayed in their hides and under leaf litter about half the day. I moved them to a 20 gallon and, eventually, an 18x18x24 exo terra. Once they got more space, they spent a majority of the day out in the open. I think they would have been perfectly fine staying the ten, but more space is always better.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> He said he was working with a pair, in which case a 10 gal, is not a minimum, it is cruel. Adult Tincs are quite large and quite active. IMO, a 10 is NOT enough space at all.
> 
> JBear


I define cruel as having next to no space to occupy solely. I think it is a shame that what is (repeatedly) stated to be a grow-out sized tank, suitable only for the first few months of a small group of metamorphs, suddenly is considered appropriate housing for an adult pair. Don't throw me under the bus when sooo many feel a 10 gal is far too small to keep anything for any duration beyond a month. If you get a pair and need to house them in a temp home while something suitably sized grows in, so be it. If you plan on a life long set-up, a 10 gal is just cruel and not suitable. This is my opinion, and if you dissagree, that is fine. I kept my tinc trio in a 10 gal far too long. I detrermined this by looking at the space they themselves occupied vs the open terrain. They ended up looking huge in there. Once I moved them to their 20 long, they appear within porportion. I hope this makes sense, and I guess I don't really mind if people don't agree. 



JBear


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Just for the record, 10 gallons didn't happen suddenly. Ask around, you'll see that many old time froggers use/used them.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Yeah many people use 10's to house pairs of tincs. As long as it's planted good, they have plenty of room without being stressed. As I will agree 20's are better, 10's will work perfectly fine.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> I define cruel as having next to no space to occupy solely. I think it is a shame that what is (repeatedly) stated to be a grow-out sized tank, suitable only for the first few months of a small group of metamorphs, suddenly is considered appropriate housing for an adult pair. Don't throw me under the bus when sooo many feel a 10 gal is far too small to keep anything for any duration beyond a month.


I'm not throwing you under the bus (although it may feel like it) but you are providing too perfect of an example for me to pass it up.. see below... 



jbherpin said:


> If you get a pair and need to house them in a temp home while something suitably sized grows in, so be it. If you plan on a life long set-up, a 10 gal is just cruel and not suitable. This is my opinion, and if you dissagree, that is fine. I kept my tinc trio in a 10 gal far too long. I detrermined this by looking at the space they themselves occupied vs the open terrain. They ended up looking huge in there. Once I moved them to their 20 long, they appear within porportion. I hope this makes sense, and I guess I don't really mind if people don't agree.


Just so you understand my opinion on size of enclosure you can see in the linked thread here I deconstructed the original standards of 5 gallons/frog here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

There is a real problem with the labeling of this as cruel as not only does this support dogma (because other's say so without understanding of the whole issue) but stigmatizes it. Dogma should be avoided as much as possible in animal care. 

When looking at whether something is cruel.. one has to look to see if the issue is impacting the animal in a manner that results in pain or distress of the animal.. In this case, there is no proof that the case as long as the tank is properly set-up.. and this holds true for all sized enclosures. A well set up ten gallon enclosure is better than a poorly set-up 50 gallon enclosure for the frogs... the reason for this is because the needs of the frogs are resource driven. If all of the resources are available, then the spatial needs of the frogs decrease... 

The use of aesthetics in determining whether or not something is cruel should be avoided at as much as possible as not only is it arbitrary and highly subjective but it readily leads us down the wrong path.. for example, many of the attractively set up heavily sculpted enclosures where conditions are manipulated to maximize activity and reproduction year round that people utilize in the hobby are not designed with the needs of tinctorius (as an example) in mind as these are primarily terrestrial (yes, I know they will climb.. note the use of primarily..) leaf litter dwelling species, and the frogs in the wild are adapted to not only diurnal behavioral cycles but seasonal cycles as well.... The fact that the frogs do so well is more a testament to thier adaptability than anything else (but this may also come at a price.... search the phrase "poor quality frogs".) but under "generalized aesthetic standards", this would probably be considered "cruel".. 

Now I do advocate the use of larger enclosures as it gives the hobbyist a greater chance of providing appropriate niche space, allows for a more stable ecosystem and permits a greater microfaunal source.. but there are literally decades of success with tinctorious in the smaller enclosures with no signs of "pain or distress".... 

We (as a hobby in general) have to be very careful in avoiding dogma and even more careful in stigmatizing it.. as this is what can easily prevent the hobby from moving forward or even set the hobby back.. 

Some comments... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

edwing206 said:


> Just for the record, 10 gallons didn't happen suddenly. Ask around, you'll see that many old time froggers use/used them.


This is correct, the use goes back literally decades...


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Listen, I am not saying they can't live full lives with no sign of real stress while housed in a 10 gal. All I was saying is I have seen countless posts on DB that have all but said it is cruel. I simply had the nerve to say what others did not. I guess now I see why... Apparently when many don't agree, people are less enthusiastic in defending themselves, and would prefer to remain neutral in order to avoid it. Me, I just don't mind. I hold my opinion, but will strike the term "cruel" from the post, and insert "too small". I get it, 5 gal per frog is a min standard... Fine. I guess as long as you have a large collection, and space is an issue, 10 gals are suitable. Right? Seems like a selfish position to me...

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to contribute. I never take personal offense, if no one had diverse opinions, we'd be cattle.

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> Listen, I am not saying they can't live full lives with no sign of real stress while housed in a 10 gal. All I was saying is I have seen countless posts on DB that have all but said it is cruel. I simply had the nerve to say what others did not. I guess now I see why... Apparently when many don't agree, people are less enthusiastic in defending themselves, and would prefer to remain neutral in order to avoid it. Me, I just don't mind. I hold my opinion, but will strike the term "cruel" from the post, and insert "too small". I get it, 5 gal per frog is a min standard... Fine. I guess as long as you have a large collection, and space is an issue, 10 gals are suitable. Right? Seems like a selfish position to me...
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to contribute. I never take personal offense, if no one had diverse opinions, we'd be cattle.
> 
> JBear


I think you need to reread my post.. It appears that you have not only misunderstood but took offense which then caused you to make negative comments about people with large collections based solely on your interpretation of people's posts... 

I think you should also read the linked thread.... 

I'm not going to continue to argue with you over this anymore but simply because a buch of people say it doesn't make it true.. if that was the case the sun would still be orbiting the earth... 


Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> I'm not going to continue to argue with you over this anymore but simply because a buch of people say it doesn't make it true.. if that was the case the sun would still be orbiting the earth...
> ED


Good point. I am not trying to create a scene or argue. I just thought the common opinion was a 10 gal is appropriate as a grow-out tank. 

Also I was not saying people with large collections are this or that, I was simply saying the more you keep, the less space you have to work with. This leads to the rational of how much can I fit into a room. You see where I am going? 

In short, I just stated an opinion, and you can simply read and dissagree, or you can add an opinion of your own. Believe me, I was not insulting anyone intentionally. If you like to use 10 gals, fine, they are your frogs. All the typing in the world does not change that. I just responded to a question asking what is a good size tank for tincs, I didn't intend on causing a stir...

All my respect-

JBear


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I would prefer to house my tinctorius pairs in 20 longs, but (based on space) this isn't possible. I raise dozens of pairs in 10 gallon tanks and they perform very well this way.

If space is not an issue, a 55 gallon tank is a good economical choice. It provides lots of floor space and enough room to house a number of different plant species (which the 10 gallons do not).

Good luck in the hobby! Richard.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok fellas. The OP's question was "*ideal* tank size for tinc's?"

"Ideal" size, not "what is the smallest thing you can get away with"


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Okay well back to original question. Always go bigger if possible. If not, a good planted 10 or 20 will work good. I used to use all 10's and 20's. Now I'm actually trying to convert to all front openings zoomeds either 18x18x24 or 18 cubes. This is just for all my tincs by the way.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

10 gallons are commonly used for grow outs, but that's not their only use. I prefer to use at least 20 gallons, but for at least some of the smaller tincs 10's will work for a pair. I have a pair of azureus in a 10 and a pair in a 20, and I would prefer to have all of them in at least the 20's. It's not that they seem stressed in a 10, they breed fine and act normally, but they seem to be coming in contact with one another a lot more even outside of breeding in the smaller tank. So I'd say at least 20 gallons is ideal, bigger sizes like a 40 or 55 would be really good, because there is much more space for nice plants, wood, etc. that will be used by the frogs without making the tank look too crowded.
Bryan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Ok fellas. The OP's question was "*ideal* tank size for tinc's?"
> 
> "Ideal" size, not "what is the smallest thing you can get away with"



Actually they may be one and the same.. if people can set aside thier personal preferences for a minute and really think about the issue.... 

The minimal habitat size is determined by the minimal amount of area that enables the animal to meet it's needs (behavioral, physiological and depending on species social).. If all of the appropriate needs can be met in a small area then that is the minimal area needed for that animal... 

A person cannot say that the animal's needs will automatically be met by increasing the size of the enclosure as depending on how the enclosure is set up, the usable area can easily be less than that of a smaller enclosure depending on how the needs are met or not met... the same goes for a smaller enclosure.. particularly when there is a long history behind it. What we can say for sure is that a poorly set-up or improperly set up enclosure will not provide for the needs of the animals regardless of the size of the enclosure. 

The driver should be providing the best available habitat for the frogs.. not setting a standard that x gallons of tank space is required for this or that type of frog as this does not address quality of habitat as it doesn't matter if the cage is the size of a large room for one tiny frog if that area is not set-up properly. 

Stepping out of the objective point of view.. 

Personally I like to see the trend towards larger enclosures as they provide some options not available or not easily accomplished in smaller enclosures but at the same time, I am seeing an upswing in dogma on minimal enclosure sizes.. (enough that I have on occasion regretted breaking down the 5 gallon/frog rule..).. In some threads it is almost like people are competing on who is providing the better habitat by providing bigger tanks instead of concentrating on the needs of the frogs.. 

One of the things people should always consider is does this provide a suitable habitat for the frogs.. often we see enclosures for leaf litter dwelling species planted so heavily that there is little if any open space for the frogs outside of some open space near the center of the tank.. yet few people consider that this along with the lack of seasonality in the enclosures that it could be playing a role in the reoccuring theme on "poor quality frogs" or why don't the frogs get as big, look like etc, wild collected specimens of the same frog....

We should be very happy the frogs are as adaptable as they are...


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

I agree with what ed is saying. I have seen setups that are much larger than any of the ones that I have set up that ultimately don't provide the ideal habitat for dart frogs for whatever reason. Its a shame. But at the same time the animals will let you know on their own. They will either fight for resources or territory if they are not happy. Either of which is not a good thing to have happen. I am of the belief that breeding only occurs if all of the biological needs are provided (food, temps, humidity). An unhappy animal will not reproduce.

I distinguish between the capacity to keep an animal alive and to have them thrive. In order for an animal to thrive (at least my definition) their reproductive needs must be met, whether it be space, food, temps, humidity, or any other variable.

If animals are willing to reproduce in smaller areas as many hobbyists report then there is something to be said for that. Obviously their needs are being satisfied. Just my 2 cents on the subject.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

varanoid said:


> I agree with what ed is saying. I have seen setups that are much larger than any of the ones that I have set up that ultimately don't provide the ideal habitat for dart frogs for whatever reason. Its a shame. But at the same time the animals will let you know on their own. They will either fight for resources or territory if they are not happy. Either of which is not a good thing to have happen. I am of the belief that breeding only occurs if all of the biological needs are provided (food, temps, humidity). An unhappy animal will not reproduce.
> 
> I distinguish between the capacity to keep an animal alive and to have them thrive. In order for an animal to thrive (at least my definition) their reproductive needs must be met, whether it be space, food, temps, humidity, or any other variable.
> 
> If animals are willing to reproduce in smaller areas as many hobbyists report then there is something to be said for that. Obviously their needs are being satisfied. Just my 2 cents on the subject.


Reproduction isn't a great benchmark as stressed animals will breed.. as a general rule of thumb you need to evaluate it from several points... 

1) are the animals showing all of the appropriate behaviors (fpr example, you aren't seeing constant escape behaviors,)
2) longevity approaches or exceeds the average for that type of frog
3) reproduction.... 

Without measuring levels of stress hormones in the frogs, one and two provide a general idea of stress levels... so you kind of need the trifecta to demonstrate that the enviroment and care of the frogs's meets thier needs.. however we should also look at the whole picture of "poor quality" frogs in this context as well..... 


Ed


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## Nightstalker (Mar 30, 2010)

Like jbherpin said, tincs are generally not arboreal, BUT from MY experience from what I have seen from my citronellas in my tank, they will climb like crazy. 

I designed my tank to not only maximize floor space, but to give them vertical space also. I put a couple pieces of wood angling up and horizontaly, in the middle, of the tank. They use the wood all the time and I see them using the whole tank, for the most part. Oh, and my tank is a 65 gallon 36 X18 X 24 Exo. I follow the "bigger is better" line of thinking.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Ed said:


> Reproduction isn't a great benchmark as stressed animals will breed.. as a general rule of thumb you need to evaluate it from several points...
> 
> 1) are the animals showing all of the appropriate behaviors (fpr example, you aren't seeing constant escape behaviors,)
> 2) longevity approaches or exceeds the average for that type of frog
> ...


You are absolutely right. Didn't mean to say reproductive behavior is the only benchmark for determining overall health. The overall health picture is much greater.


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