# benedicta



## SmackoftheGods

these pictures were taken around 5 PM my time (six hours ago)




























(that fleck to the tadpole's right is the back segment of a wingless melano fruit fly just to give the picture some scale, my melos run pretty small, I'd say the fleck is, give or take, half a mm)










You can see the whole clutch of five but two of them are severely out of focus


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## VancouverBetta

Nice! Some day I will have some Benedicta......


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## NDokai

Very cool! Congrats! Where did they lay?


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## D3monic

Very cool! Put me down on that wait list.


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## Julio

very nice keep us updated on the development!


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## gluedl

Congrats. 

From what I see on the forum, there should be plenty around in a year or so. Everybody who wants some of these might have them shortly, as they are great breeders. 

As for the price, what are you planning on asking for froglets? An adult frog costs 380€ around here. Please PM me if you don't want to discuss that here.

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## rcteem

Congrats man!!! Keep it going so we dont wipeout them out in the wild!!!


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## SmackoftheGods

They laid in two film canisters mounted into the great stuff. One's very close to the ground right beneath the water feature facing the right side, the other one is half way up the tank facing the front but is primarily covered by a bromeliad. I actually found them both on Monday. I saw the clutch and pulled it and then I looked in the other canister and thought I saw moldy eggs so I ran off to work. When I got back I wanted to see how badly they were molded so I was trying to shine a light past the bromeliad and then I saw movement in the canister, four tadpoles newly hatched in the jelly... pretty lucky.

D3monic, there's no waiting list, gotta make sure they morph out alright first 

gluedl, I don't really expect to sell froglets... froglets are too young for me to feel comfortable shipping, so unless the buyer is local (and it's a possibility, we've got a growing population of froggers here, but we're just not that many in my area) chances are I won't sell until they're juvies at least. As for price, I've seen a number of frogs released into to hobby (specifically the US hobby) by Mark Pepper, guaranteed legal (no possibility of smuggling), site specific locales and then shortly after the species is released to the hobby Mark is severly undercut. Look at the veraderos for instance, a year ago they were 175, now they're going for half of that. Obviously there is going to be a fluctuation in pricing based on the demand of that frog and the supply of that frog, but I still think it's unfortunate because of all the hard work Mark's putting in to getting us legal frogs that are typically very rare/virtually non-existant in the current hobby. So, out of respect for the work that Mark is doing for us all I suspect my asking price will be roughly equivalent to his for the time being.


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## gluedl

Jake,

thanks for the reply. When I said froglets I actually just meant the offspring, I now see my comment could be misunderstood - any serious frogkeeper will only sell and ship frogs of a certain age. 

That said, I completely agree with you about M. Peppers work. I got mine from his reseller in Holland with official papers. Yet there has been a lot of talk around here (Europe) that the price these cost is much exagerated. I have 2 options: being considered as a wallet ripper selling offspring at the same price or getting face slapped by the original importer if I sold them for far less . Will choose n°1. And a deal has just yet to happen as I only have tads now, but I wanted to hear your opinion.

By the way, most people I know who have them around here (Europe) share that opinion.

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## D3monic

I guess I am the odd man out. To me I dont see it being a slap in the face. He did work hard to bring us legal frogs and those prices are reflected. But as they become more readily available due to breeding efforts a price drop can be expected with the market being flooded. If he is even the slightest bit a conservationalist he should be proud to see the frogs he work hard to introduce falling into capable breeders hands who in turn produce them in great numbers and distribute at fair market value relieving the strain on the wild populations. 

Then again I dont know Mark at all and I could be completly wrong. 

Sorry for the temporary derail.


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## stemcellular

Nice work. Regarding Pepper, I have a feeling that the initial high costs are partially based on the expectation that eventual supply will drive down prices.


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## Boondoggle

Congrats, Smack, I remember how stoked you where when you were first looking forward to getting these. I'm glad you are having success.


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## VancouverBetta

Any pics of the parents?


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## SmackoftheGods

D3monic said:


> I guess I am the odd man out. To me I dont see it being a slap in the face. He did work hard to bring us legal frogs and those prices are reflected. But as they become more readily available due to breeding efforts a price drop can be expected with the market being flooded. If he is even the slightest bit a conservationalist he should be proud to see the frogs he work hard to introduce falling into capable breeders hands who in turn produce them in great numbers and distribute at fair market value relieving the strain on the wild populations.
> 
> Then again I dont know Mark at all and I could be completly wrong.
> 
> Sorry for the temporary derail.


I don't disagree with you. Eventually the prices are going to come down (I mentioend that in my last post). I'm not upset about that. Obviously it's great when prices come down because more froggers are going to be able to afford the frogs. I just think it's a little distasteful at the rapid rate at which the prices have plummeted in the past. Eventually the benedicta price will drop, for US sellers and for Mark himself, but I'm not going to be the one (rather, one of those) who drives the price down because I'm looking to get rid of frogs. Right now there aren't many in the hobby, tads take forever to morph out (maybe I should compare that to something like an imitator, everything's relative)... the price can stay high a little longer.


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## SmackoftheGods

VancouverBetta said:


> Any pics of the parents?


There are some around the board. Tonight and tomorrow I'll see if they're feeling social enough to do a photo shoot. Just got access to a new macro so I'll see what I can do for you 

P.S. thanks for the kind words everyone


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## D3monic

VancouverBetta said:


> Any pics of the parents?


+1 

I would love to see the parents. Such pretty frogs.


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## Chris Miller

D3monic said:


> I guess I am the odd man out. To me I dont see it being a slap in the face. He did work hard to bring us legal frogs and those prices are reflected. But as they become more readily available due to breeding efforts a price drop can be expected with the market being flooded. If he is even the slightest bit a conservationalist he should be proud to see the frogs he work hard to introduce falling into capable breeders hands who in turn produce them in great numbers and distribute at fair market value relieving the strain on the wild populations.
> 
> Sorry for the temporary derail.


Fair market value? Apparently $400 for frogs directly from Mark are at a fair market value since he sells out on every shipment. Granted the $400 may be enticing to smugglers, but there are other new species out there that will fetch more - especially from areas easier to get to by the campesinos.

Every new legal species that he tries to bring to market is in a race against illegal frogs. This time the benedicta won (Varadero imitator and vanzolinii lost), and Mark got the benedicta to market in the US and Europe quickly enough that the ones that were in the EU 'illegally' didn't have time to make it to the US in large numbers (single digits from what I've heard). Varadero imitator and vanzolinii prices halved in a year's time because the market was flooded with them. R. benedicta breeds well, but there won't be a glut of EU frogs flooding over here any time soon. 

While Mark is a conservationist he also has to run a business to be able to keep bringing in legal frogs. To me, it is important that we (as consumers) support importers/breeders like Mark who get locality data and respect the South American governments. If others can be shown that Mark's business model works, then they will try it for themselves and the hobby will benefit. I mean imagine Ecuador and Colombia being opened back up for certain species that are collected in a responsible way...


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## SmackoftheGods

Bit of an update on these guys. The first two are from the first clutch and the third is a belly shot from the second clutch. I don't know what's going on with the belly shot, if he's dead, I know sometimes my leucomelas tads lay on their backs on occasion so, who knows.... All four from the first clutch are developing at the same rate, four of the five from the second hatched just fine making eight developing tads:




























Just a question for anyone who's morphed out any benedicta, is it typical for the heads of these tads to become somewhat transparent like these photos show?


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## Dendro Dave

Awsome! Good luck with them! Probably my all time favorite dart frog 

As for the lack of head coloration, my guess would be its normal given the adults pattering (all having red heads)...this might be an early expression of the genetics responsible for that.

As for the pricing of new frogs...From what I've seen some of the prices seem to drop because while all the frogs are great, some are more flashy then others and have a wider appeal. Many that have come in have been similar to species already in the hobby so the demand initially is just from the people who want something new, or have a particular thing for that frog and are willing to pay to be the first to get it like I was with black bassleri. 

While some like benidicta, escudos and others maintain their value more because they have a broader appeal. Then ofcourse some breed better then others which has a huge impact also...like orange lamasi were high priced and sought after but they bred like rabbits and now people practially give them away. Benedicta will be high for sometime...they are just to rad


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## boombotty

I have noticed that my retic tads seem to be transparent on their heads. I wonder if this is because of the red that comes in later on. I don't think it is a very healty trait, so send all your tads my way and I will dispose of them for you


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## SmackoftheGods

That's more or less what I was thinking, I just wanted some confirmation 

These are actually growing a lot faster than I thought they would. I know fantastica are supposed to grow slower than, say, imitators, but mine seem to be growing about the same pace.... Pretty exciting for me.

Boom, locals first (assuming there's anyone with the interest and the money/trades locally), after that I'd be happy to send you some froglets, but I'd feel really bad about sending you tads that have the transparent defect, best see how they develop  (by the way, I laughed out loud in the middle of a party when I read that on my phone)


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## gluedl

just a late confirmation: mine are quite transparent too...


gluedl


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## salix

Just a question for anyone who's morphed out any benedicta, is it typical for the heads of these tads to become somewhat transparent like these photos show?

I have about six benedicta tads. The difference in coloration will become more and more apparent as they age. With the parents being "two-toned", the tads are just the same.

I'll try to post some pictures of my tads when I get a chance. They have no leg development yet, but grow well and are voracious eaters!

Good luck with yours,
Deb


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## Dendro Dave

Anyone with froglets can add me to future wait lists...No promise i'll be able to afford it at that time, whenever that is...but i'll definately make every effort.


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## james67

me too! 
anyone want mancreeks for tads or froglets? 

james


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## Chris Miller

salix said:


> Just a question for anyone who's morphed out any benedicta, is it typical for the heads of these tads to become somewhat transparent like these photos show?


Yes it's normal. I've seen this on reticulata, copperhead and lowland fantastica too. The red will appear around the time the rear legs get knees. 

On a sad note, I've had at least one morph in the tank and I didn't find it until this morning when I caught it's leg in the door of the tank. Guessing the froglet will make it but the leg is busted.

I've got 25+ in the water now plus 10 or so eggs/tads in the tank and a handful of froglets. These frogs will be more available in the near future and at a more obtainable price.


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## Vermfly

salix said:


> Just a question for anyone who's morphed out any benedicta, is it typical for the heads of these tads to become somewhat transparent like these photos show?
> 
> I have about six benedicta tads. The difference in coloration will become more and more apparent as they age. With the parents being "two-toned", the tads are just the same.
> 
> I'll try to post some pictures of my tads when I get a chance. They have no leg development yet, but grow well and are voracious eaters!
> 
> Good luck with yours,
> Deb


A local breeder that will soon have young benedicta? No, must start with something easier...


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## salix

Aurotaenia said:


> Yes it's normal. I've seen this on reticulata, copperhead and lowland fantastica too. The red will appear around the time the rear legs get knees.



My experience too. Sorry, the question was my "quoting" Jake's question. I had accidentally deleted the "quote" tags.

And yes, benedicta tads less than an hour away from you in Placerville..  But in reality, they are quite easy, just a little "spendy" still.

Deb


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## Vermfly

They are definitely something I'll be thinking about in the near future. I want a pair of Azureus to start out with but my first thumbs will be either 'Varadero' imitators, benedicta or vanzolinii.


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## SmackoftheGods

I'm experiencing a little imitator style behavior from my benedicta. I've been pulling the eggs from their favorite hiding places and apparently they're pissed at me. They're hiding the eggs now. I woke up and turned on the light (benedicta tank is one of the few that isn't automated) and there was the male with three tadpoles on his back.... Sneaky....

Too bad he's a pansy and ran away before I could get a picture. It was pretty sweet.


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## Vermfly

That is awesome. They are just such cool little animals.


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## SmackoftheGods

I finally got some shots. They're too skiddish for me to open the doors, so there's some glare in some of them. Some are pretty good, though. The last one is bound to be everyone's favorite


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## salix

Very cool shots.

I was going to agree with you until I took a second look. I like the first pose best!

Deb


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## Jarhead_2016

aww is that daddy in the last pic he is so responsible
-scotty


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## Dendro Dave

Dibs on those 3 future frogs!!!! LoL....nah probably be 6mo to a year before I can afford a few of these...unless someone wants to take pity on me and send me some because the ice storm 2 years back wiped out most of my collection (about 40 darts, mantella and geckos total(GRRRR) and thats my all time favorite dart...and no, I have no shame...and yes I will take pity frogs lol


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## Julio

great shots, of the 3 piggy back tads!!!


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## johnc

Very nice indeed. Keep up the good work.


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## SmackoftheGods

My first clutch is finally getting the first stages of coloration.


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## Julio

very cool! how old are they now?


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## SmackoftheGods

Those shown are right around 5 or 5 1/2 weeks now....


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## Vermfly

Damn, even the tadpoles of these guys are beautiful. Great frogs.


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## SmackoftheGods

You can see the black spots on the forehead above the eyes start developing in these photos:


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## Vermfly

I've narrowed it down. It's either these guys or Veraderos for my first thumbs when I'm ready for them.


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## Mapp

SmackoftheGods said:


> You can see the black spots on the forehead above the eyes start developing in these photos:


Niiiiiiiiiice! 
They're starting to get some nice coloration.
Didn't you know? Utah has....uh....relocated....... next to massachusetts! 



> I've narrowed it down. It's either these guys or Veraderos for my first thumbs when I'm ready for them.


I was planning on making a 150 gallon from scratch, (plexiglass is marvelous) and then make it home to a pare r two of benedictas.(or retics, or maybe some fants.....or some escudos or bastis......) GAAAAH I have to focus on my first frogs, THEN I can think about making my house a petting zoo....


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## Vermfly

I know. I'm the same way. I'm building my first viv right now for some Azureus I plan on getting and already I'd thinking about the next 3 frogs I want.


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## SmackoftheGods

Mapp said:


> Niiiiiiiiiice!
> They're starting to get some nice coloration.
> Didn't you know? Utah has....uh....relocated....... next to massachusetts!
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on making a 150 gallon from scratch, (plexiglass is marvelous) and then make it home to a pare r two of benedictas.(or retics, or maybe some fants.....or some escudos or bastis......) GAAAAH I have to focus on my first frogs, THEN I can think about making my house a petting zoo....


I've actually got this plan to move to Boston next year.... It's subject to change depending on grad school, but that's the current plan 

Save your 150 gallon for some oophaga or something that needs it. After discussing husbandry for fantastica group frogs I'm actually planning on increasing my number of benedicta and _decreasing_ the tank size a little.


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## devin mac

SmackoftheGods said:


> After discussing husbandry for fantastica group frogs I'm actually planning on increasing my number of benedicta and _decreasing_ the tank size a little.


since i'm FAR too lazy to search for the answer, what are they housed in at the moment?


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## SmackoftheGods

18x24x18 exo terra. But it looks like as soon as I get the motivation to build the tank the group of 5 will likely be housed in an 18 cube.


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## Mapp

SmackoftheGods said:


> Save your 150 gallon for some oophaga or something that needs it. After discussing husbandry for fantastica group frogs I'm actually planning on increasing my number of benedicta and _decreasing_ the tank size a little.


Yea, well this is something that will hopefully, maybe, eventually, someday happen. I haven't realy taken an in-depth look at the care requirements of most of those frogs (except for the pums..... I have researched the heck out of pums)
So it was more of a "in the future" kind of thing. I wouldn't want to take such a beautiful frog home only to have it die. I'm not taking them on until I have waaay more experience then I do now. (ie. not noob-ish)
However......I might get some bastis later this year..... 
UGH! There I go again!
FIRST FROGS MATT, FIRST FROGS
lol, sorry to fill your thread with my nonsensical babbling.


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## sports_doc

Jake
Wonderful job with these.

If you come to Boston, we might now even let you into the New England [Elitist] Frog Group 

Word of caution for all you drooling over benedicta...:
Although this will likely go ignored, I DONT think these are good frogs for someones first, or even tenth, thumbnail species.

First the 400$ price tag , but they are by far the most shy frog that I have owned....80 tanks, and these take the cake ;-)

Let me know if you disagree Jake? not that I think you will have a hard time selling them anyways 

You mention keeping them as a group. I have mine as 1.1 and 1.1 [suspected] as they are new to me and no breeding yet, but I wonder what you would suggest as far as putting the group together or keeping them separate for now. Also, a FTS of your breeding tank would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## SmackoftheGods

sports_doc said:


> Jake
> Wonderful job with these.
> 
> If you come to Boston, we might now even let you into the New England [Elitist] Frog Group
> 
> Word of caution for all you drooling over benedicta...:
> Although this will likely go ignored, I DONT think these are good frogs for someones first, or even tenth, thumbnail species.
> 
> First the 400$ price tag , but they are by far the most shy frog that I have owned....80 tanks, and these take the cake ;-)
> 
> Let me know if you disagree Jake? not that I think you will have a hard time selling them anyways
> 
> You mention keeping them as a group. I have mine as 1.1 and 1.1 [suspected] as they are new to me and no breeding yet, but I wonder what you would suggest as far as putting the group together or keeping them separate for now. Also, a FTS of your breeding tank would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks


I think the greatest deterrent for newer members is the pricetag (which will likely decrease, perhaps not substantially, but at least some what, over the next year or two). I don't think that they're particularly difficult to care for, though, so after some work with an easier species like an imitator or vent I think they'd be just fine.... They seem to me to be a larger species of thumbnail, and rather resillient.

As for the shyness, I experienced some shyness in the beginning, but now mine are actually rather bold. They use the entire tank. Every day before the lights come on I see them hanging out on the door and on the glass. They spend a lot of time in the leaf litter. I'd say my male is still rather skittish, but my females are quite bold. I can sit right in front of the tank and watch them explore, as long as I don't try to open the doors they don't typically run away. I saw a little female aggression earlier this morning right at the front of the tank and I tapped the glass and waved my hand in front of them to try to get them to break it up and they wouldn't. I'm confident that as soon as you get some breeding activity they'll bolden up quite a bit.

I was thinking about copying and pasting my correspondance with Mark into this thread for you, but I don't really want to do that... I don't want to break any rules on the board and I don't know if that would be considered bad. But I'll summarize. I'm currently keeping mine in a trio and for the first four or five months I was hearing calling every morning and seeing breeding _activity_ but no eggs. Eventually I wrote Mark about it and he suggested a few things to me. First of all he said he keeps his benedicta in groups of 4-6 in twenty gallon tanks. Well planted, but with only two or three large bromeliads. He told me that I need to either take one of the females out or introduce a couple more frogs (ideally with an extra male). Apparently when trios are kept there's a high competition for breeding partners as there's an odd man or woman out which increases aggression and decreases breeding. It was also suggested to me that I decrease my tank size as this apparently increases potential breeding success. It was suggested that I build a new tank (as I said, I'm currently keeping them in an 18x24x18 which I believe is roughly 35 gallons) right around twenty gallons (if I put a water feature in an 18 cube that should be almost exactly 20 gallons).

So far I've only had one clutch (that I know of) laid on a bromeliad. Everything else has been in film canisters. I started with six film canisters mounted on both sides facing the back of the tank, but they only ever used the ones on the left side of the tank (where great stuff sculpting is more apparent) so I no longer have the canisters on the right side of the tank. I have two canisters mounted into great stuff on the left side that were originally hidden by a bromeliad that died and are now hidden by creeping fig. The favorite places for my benedicta to lay are in the two canisters mounted in the great stuff and in the highest canister on the left side. In addition to these canisters I have a lot of canisters strewn about the leaf litter. All of them face backwards. This is what I do with all my fantastica group frogs. In my discussions with others it seems that canisters facing backward promote the greatest breeding success. 

I don't know how you're keeping your benedicta but I hope this helps. I wouldn't be afraid to mix your two pairs in a well constructed 20 gallon. I'm told keeping groups in smaller spaces (as long as it's not too small) will promote the greatest opportunity for breeding. I'll try to take a full tank shot tonight or tomorrow and post it here. I'll see if I can photoshop it so that you can see where the favorite lay spots are too. It's nothing spectacular, but for now it's getting the job done


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## NDokai

Thanks for the info. We have a couple tanks of them, and have recently been getting tads out of a pair.
We have a pair in an 18 gallon vert, and what looks like 3.1 or 2.2 in a 18X18X24 zoo med. We don't think the larger group has begun to breed yet, so we are going to split them into pairs. We don't know exactly where our pair has been laying their eggs, but it isn't in any of the film canisters. They are likely laying deep in the leaf litter. Like Jake, we have film canisters both on the ground and high up, backward facing and some forward facing, but so far, they have avoided laying in them. 
Our breeding pair is very shy, but the group is a little easier to observe. We have witnessed the male transporting tads on several occasions, but as soon as we walk into the room, he starts heading for cover.
It is good hearing about everyone's methods.

Nick


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## Chris Miller

NDokai said:


> Thanks for the info. We have a couple tanks of them, and have recently been getting tads out of a pair.
> We have a pair in an 18 gallon vert, and what looks like 3.1 or 2.2 in a 18X18X24 zoo med. We don't think the larger group has begun to breed yet, so we are going to split them into pairs. We don't know exactly where our pair has been laying their eggs, but it isn't in any of the film canisters. They are likely laying deep in the leaf litter. Like Jake, we have film canisters both on the ground and high up, backward facing and some forward facing, but so far, they have avoided laying in them.
> Our breeding pair is very shy, but the group is a little easier to observe. We have witnessed the male transporting tads on several occasions, but as soon as we walk into the room, he starts heading for cover.
> It is good hearing about everyone's methods.
> 
> Nick



Try tucking the backwards facing film canisters into the leaves of plants or putting them all the way at the back of the enclosure so there is just a little room for them to squeeze into it.


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## SmackoftheGods

Aurotaenia said:


> Try tucking the backwards facing film canisters into the leaves of plants or putting them all the way at the back of the enclosure so there is just a little room for them to squeeze into it.


Yes, exactly


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## SmackoftheGods

Looks like he's getting elbows to me


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## Vermfly

So cool. His back legs are still really small.


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## costaricalvr12

Any updates?


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## SmackoftheGods

costaricalvr12 said:


> Any updates?


Not really. I now have 20 tads in the water. The oldest have a little more color on their heads and the most developed one has thicker back legs (four of them have back legs now) and his elbows are getting a little bigger, but nothing cool enough to get a picture of. The second something exciting happens I can assure you it'll be posted


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## Dendro Dave

SmackoftheGods said:


> Not really. I now have 20 tads in the water. The oldest have a little more color on their heads and the most developed one has thicker back legs (four of them have back legs now) and his elbows are getting a little bigger, but nothing cool enough to get a picture of. The second something exciting happens I can assure you it'll be posted


Wow 20...that will be a major help in getting these established if they all morph out and do well, especially if a few others have that kind of success. Good luck! ...Maybe us poor kids will be able to afford them sooner then we hoped  I was on the list for them, but at most I would have been able to get 2, and I didn't feel right about getting that few with so little chance for a pair....I wanna see these become common in the hobby.


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## SmackoftheGods

Dendro Dave said:


> Wow 20...that will be a major help in getting these established if they all morph out and do well, especially if a few others have that kind of success. Good luck! ...Maybe us poor kids will be able to afford them sooner then we hoped


there are others having success. I know at _least_ one other DB member who has even more tads than I do!


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## costaricalvr12

Thanks a lot for the update.

In response to the frog losing value: Yeah, there's really no avoiding it since they breed pretty readily (with no specific husbandry issues). I predict the price will depreciate rather quickly actually. IMHO, just because Mark sold them at $400+ doesn't mean that they should stay there. He had to put in a lot of effort to import them legally which costs money. We don't have to do any of that. I'm sure many of the people who own these frogs don't want their value to depreciate since they paid good money but it is truly inevitable. The unfortunate part is that a lot of hobbyists associate value with the attractiveness of frogs and their popularity will most likely wane somewhat.


Thoughts?


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## Dendro Dave

I got no problem with Mark or others working on programs for conservation and bringing these in legally charging enough to help recoup their investment, or them being 400 each or 300 or whatever while supply is still low enough that there is plenty of demand....other then I won't likely be able to afford them for quite awhile 

But hey thats economics. And I don't have any problem with people like Smack keeping the price stable for a short time so that Mark isn't undercut right off the bat. Now if a bunch of froggers get together and decide they are going to keep these at 400 a frog for as long as possible so they can all make as much money as possible that would annoy me to say the least, but there are to many good people in this hobby for that to likely occur. I say let supply and demand dictate the price in the long run.

Very few people might argue that keeping the price high keeps unexperienced people from getting them, but there are ton's of great keepers that can't afford to pay 400 a frog that often that would do great with these and other frogs, and plenty of snot nosed kids who don't know crap with 1000 bucks or more to blow so I don't buy that argument, luckily I don't think very many people are making that argument, or buying it either.

I also agree its sad that some perceive the most expensive frogs to be the most beautiful...look at super blues and and even blue Azureus, they are 2 of most eye popping frogs in the hobby if you ask me but the price is usually under 50 bucks, and even red galacts one of the few larger frogs with any red on it and still fairly hard to get sells for under 100


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## SmackoftheGods

I think you're right. Price will probably drop pretty quickly. But for right now, I suspect the price will remain at 400(ish) across anyone currently breeding them... at least for a little while. Simple fact is Mark is still selling out each shipment to the US of his benedicta at the current price and the few people I've seen post benedicta on DB (at the same price) sell out in 24 hour periods. As long as demand is that high and there aren't many frogs in the hobby I think it's perfectly fine to continue charging what is currently being asked. Supply and demand. As long as demand is high and supply is low you can expect high prices. It's not a conspiracy of a bunch of froggers trying to keep a species in elitist hands. I understand the concept of supply and demand and I support Mark and don't wish to undercut him and unfairly take away his business. That's all I was trying to say in my earlier posts.


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## Dendro Dave

SmackoftheGods said:


> I think you're right. Price will probably drop pretty quickly. But for right now, I suspect the price will remain at 400(ish) across anyone currently breeding them... at least for a little while. Simple fact is Mark is still selling out each shipment to the US of his benedicta at the current price and the few people I've seen post benedicta on DB (at the same price) sell out in 24 hour periods. As long as demand is that high and there aren't many frogs in the hobby I think it's perfectly fine to continue charging what is currently being asked. Supply and demand. As long as demand is high and supply is low you can expect high prices. It's not a conspiracy of a bunch of froggers trying to keep a species in elitist hands. I understand the concept of supply and demand and I support Mark and don't wish to undercut him and unfairly take away his business. That's all I was trying to say in my earlier posts.


Works for me


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## SmackoftheGods

Shawn, I was finally able to take a picture of my benedicta vivarium for you. Like I said, it's not much to look at. The picture cut off both of the sides (just barely), but I have three film canisters facing backward mounted on both sides. Also, in the left I have the tiniest little water feature that just barely gets a flow. In the back next to the creeping fig you can see a film canister, that's one of their favorite lay spots. Also, underneath the fig is a film canister that faces the right side of the tank which is their other lay spot. I've also found a clutch of three in the highest canister mounted on the left side and two clutches in the bromeliad mounted on the wood on the right hand side. Hope this helps.


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## SmackoftheGods

This is my "most developed" benedicta tadpole. I don't know how they're supposed to look at this stage, but the elbows seem... malformed? The tadpole's taken on almost a diamond shape. I did my best to get a good shot of him, but the water is a little murky... I hope this picture does me any good. My question to those who have had the fortune of putting out a full froglet is A) is this the way my tad is supposed to look and B) how long do you suppose it will be until I see front legs?










Edit: to update I have over 20 tadpoles, four of them have elbows (although the above is the only one that has elbows extremely noticable) and I have eight that are starting to color up.


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## sports_doc

Awesome
I am setting mine up in a better suited tank this weekend!

Good luck with them. They look great and the tank is perfect. ;-)

S


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## randa4

Jake-When your R. benedicta start coming out of the water, I would be interested in buying several (just like the 1,004 other froggers on the board). Whatever your price would be fine with me. Suspect you have a waiting list or similar.

Thx-Mike in Helotes


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## randa4

P.S. Thank you for your great pics and updates--have learned more from your posts and pics than anywhere else about R. benedicta.

Mike


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## Chris Miller

Looking good Jake! I'm up to over 30 tads now and a handful out of the water. The first ones morphed small but they've gotten up to the size of my fantastica recently.

Bad news though that 2nd male I thought I had is a female... explains all the eggs though.


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## cheezus_2007

i'm jelous of u guys lol  20-30 tads....pffff.... i'd be stokeddddddd on 2 lol.


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## yours

So cool!!! Gorgeous babies!! Some day.... (thanks for the picture progress!)


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## SmackoftheGods

Aurotaenia said:


> Looking good Jake! I'm up to over 30 tads now and a handful out of the water. The first ones morphed small but they've gotten up to the size of my fantastica recently.
> 
> Bad news though that 2nd male I thought I had is a female... explains all the eggs though.


Well, as you know, I only have one male. However, I'll get you a male and we'll work something out.

Mike, I'll keep you posted. Shoot me a PM and we'll talk... even if you don't end up buying from me


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## ErikHa

I like them, but for me, the colouring and behaviour doesn't warrant the price. Looking at the other thumbnails the colour scheme can hardly be called spectacular or surprising. It's just novelty, and it will wear off quickly when 'new' frogs come in. Captivus for example. Now that is a frog that has a genuine exciting pattern and colours.


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## stemcellular

good work, glad to see successful breeding of these guys.


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## poimandres

Jake, awesome work! Good to see that you are having success with these guys.


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## randa4

Jake,

Have sent multiple PM's-did you receive?

Thx,
Mike in Helotes


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## SmackoftheGods

This may be horrible of me, but sometimes I get bored of watching my tads.... I feed them enough, but I don't have to look at them every day.... So, I checked on my benedicta tads three days ago. No new changes. I went to check again today and I happened to have a tad missing. I ended up having to pull all 23 of my tad containers so I could remove the false bottom... even then I couldn't find anything until I picked up my underwater heater. Then a little froglet came darting out my way and ran all the way up the side of my incubator. The guy's a freaking ninja! He must've decided he'd spent enough time in water, in three days he sprouted legs, absorbed most of his tail climbed out of a vertical dish and landed in my heated water basin.... I set up his grow out tank and he refuses to go anywhere near the water. He's more content to climb up the sides and jump from side to side to side. Fastest froglet I've ever seen.... I've said enough, here are some pictures (perhaps someone can speak to the red on his back... figure that will fade or is that a fancy little thing that will stay with him?)


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## Dendro Dave

Congrats!, good work. I'm guessing the red spot on the back will fade away, but would be interesting if it didn't


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## james67

hells yea!! lookin great, hopefully they ALL come out that nice 

james


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## stemcellular

congrats, they look really cool.


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## randa4

Jake, 
Fantastic breeding--really good work! You are leading the way in breeding R. benedicta! Please keep sharing you considerable success!

Mike in Helotes


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## SmackoftheGods

randa4 said:


> Jake,
> Fantastic breeding--really good work! You are leading the way in breeding R. benedicta! Please keep sharing you considerable success!
> 
> Mike in Helotes


I think Chris Miller and a couple others are ahead of me a little bit, but I appreciate the enthusiasm 

Thanks guys


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## randa4

Perhaps, and there's a difference. You have shared your experience from the start (in May), and I see no postings from any of those other folks. Keeping us fully informed with pics and data is what is all about, true? You are willing to share real time experience, and that plays!


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## Chris Miller

randa4 said:


> Perhaps, and there's a difference. You have shared your experience from the start (in May), and I see no postings from any of those other folks. Keeping us fully informed with pics and data is what is all about, true? You are willing to share real time experience, and that plays!


Thanks Jake.

I've posted and shared pics and info, not sure what that's all about.


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## SmackoftheGods

It's about time this thread was updated, right?

Here you are, a few of my froglets that I have morphed out of the water:














































I also have around 30 tadpoles in the water, most of which are growing pretty steadily.


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## james67

BAD A$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

good work!

james


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## Chris Miller

Way to go Jake!

I'm finally starting to get them to morph out at the sizes my copperhead fantastica do where they don't need springs.

How big did your adults get? One of my females is huge - at least an inch, if not a few millimeters more.


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## Vermfly

Wow. 30 tadpoles X going rate for benedicta= $$$$.

Sent from my MB300 using Tapatalk


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## Dendro Dave

Excellent work guys....keep em coming. I want these affordable by the end of the year! *Cracks whip!*


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## Chris Miller

I figure they will have halved in price by this time next year. I've slowed my females down again. I hit 50 tads and decided they needed to rest.

Before anyone misconstrues these numbers as benedicta being easier to breed than other thumbnails - and other fantastica frogs in general, please think compare and contrast how the benedicta made it into the hobby versus the original copperhead fantastica or the first yellow fantastica/summersi.

The work Mark has put into his program combined the high price of the animals has ensured that the froglets are of the highest quality and receive the utmost of care. The former was not available with the first imports of fantastica and summersi and the latter has improved as a direct result of the initial imports of those frogs from Europe and Peru back in the 90's.


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## cheezus_2007

sommmmmmmmmmmmmmmeday i'll get some lol.... nice pics jake


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## SmackoftheGods

Aurotaenia said:


> Way to go Jake!
> 
> I'm finally starting to get them to morph out at the sizes my copperhead fantastica do where they don't need springs.
> 
> How big did your adults get? One of my females is huge - at least an inch, if not a few millimeters more.


My benedicta don't need springs to begin with (although I do offer them to them). They've got huge mouths.... But I don't know what size copperheads morph out at as I've never worked with them before so I can't give you a comparison there.

My benedicta are by far my largest thumbnail. I couldn't give an very good measurement, but I can't imagine they're much smaller than yours (probably about the same).


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## botanyboy03

Congrats. Beautiful froglets. I've got to work my way up to thumbs, I don't have enough experience yet.... Someday though....

Zac


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## fleshfrombone

Gorgeous frogs bro! I'm glad you got them breeding man!


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## laylow

Hey buddy, If you need someone to watch after a few of those 30+ froglets as they start morphing out, dont be afraid to let me know  I wouldnt even mind helping you haha 

Shaw


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## SmackoftheGods

laylow said:


> Hey buddy, If you need someone to watch after a few of those 30+ froglets as they start morphing out, dont be afraid to let me know  I wouldnt even mind helping you haha
> 
> Shaw


Believe it or not, this isn't the only offer I've gotten like that


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## Chris Miller

SmackoftheGods said:


> Believe it or not, this isn't the only offer I've gotten like that


Good thing is they go out the door as soon as they are ready. I still can't get over how beautiful they are. I am tempted to throw a large group into a huge tank just because they are gorgeous.


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## ChrisK

Aurotaenia said:


> Good thing is they go out the door as soon as they are ready. I still can't get over how beautiful they are. I am tempted to throw a large group into a huge tank just because they are gorgeous.


OK OK now we need some pics and videos!


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## Dendro Dave

ChrisK said:


> OK OK now we need some pics and videos!


Eh such things may constitute "torture" for those of us without them  I'm not sure I can take it!


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## SmackoftheGods

Aurotaenia said:


> Good thing is they go out the door as soon as they are ready. I still can't get over how beautiful they are. I am tempted to throw a large group into a huge tank just because they are gorgeous.


Actually... I'm thinking about holding on to most of mine and showing up at Frog Day with some adults or subadults....


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## tclipse

SmackoftheGods said:


> Actually... I'm thinking about holding on to most of mine and showing up at Frog Day with some adults or subadults....


Or, you could show up to my house with some adults or subadults....


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## SmackoftheGods

tclipse said:


> Or, you could show up to my house with some adults or subadults....


Or you could come to Frog Day and and pick up some adults or subadults....


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## GeorgiaB

WOW!!! Congrats! They are gorgeous. I am soo happy to see this much success, it makes me pretty excited to think that by the time i am able to get them there will be a decent amount available 

Please keep us posted!
Georgia


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## salix

A couple of days ago I set up a new grow out tank for my benedicta froglets and moved in the seven I currently have.

Tonight I was moving around some tads and was checking my morph out boxes. I picked up the one I use for the benedicta and decided to check inside, even though I already knew it was empty. Can you guess what was looking back at me when I lifted a leaf? Good thing I keep the box stocked with springtails. It had probably been two weeks since I looked in that box.

They are striking frogs!

Deb


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## SmackoftheGods

GeorgiaB said:


> WOW!!! Congrats! They are gorgeous. I am soo happy to see this much success, it makes me pretty excited to think that by the time i am able to get them there will be a decent amount available
> 
> Please keep us posted!
> Georgia


Not a lot to keep you updated on. I've cycled down my benedicta so I'm not getting any eggs. Of the tads I've already had I've had around five fatalities for whatever reason, half of the remaining are OOW, half are still in at various stages. Two have morphed out with some kind of deformity and ended up passing on. But the rest have been putting on weight pretty fast and are getting pretty large. In a few months I'll have offspring that are actually adults!


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