# What could I put in this little viv?



## Erica (Dec 11, 2010)

A friend gave me a strange project; a 15" tall, 10" across, 6" sided hexagonal tank to make into a vivarium. Its about 7 gallons, and I was wondering what frog, (if any) would do fairly well, in such a small environment... 
It's vertically orientated, so an arboreal frog will do well, and I was also questioning if i should put two frogs in this little enclosure, or if that would be too much. 

Thank you to all you experts!



p.s. I havn't started building yet, cause' I'd like to suit the vivarium to the frogs needs


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Put an orchid mantis in it.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Yup. Put an orchid mantis in it. Happens that I'll have more here in just a bit.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Maybe a pair of vents. Put up a pic if you can


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## Erica (Dec 11, 2010)

The three back panels are mirrored (so you're not crazy, it _is_ reflecting)









this is in comparison to a roll of paper towels i happened to have nearby


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## Erica (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm open to the Mantis!- but what kind of vents would you suggest?


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## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

Woah. I have never heard of an orchid mantis. Definitely put one in there. Definitely.

Mark


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Erica said:


> I'm open to the Mantis!- but what kind of vents would you suggest?


I actually think that viv would work for a single amazonica, but I think a pair would be pushing it. I really love my Iquitos! The color contrast is amazing, brighter blue legs and more reddish-orange color then a varadero for cryin' out loud. That's really saying something!

P.S. Ventrimaculata no longer exists. What was classified as ventrimaculata is now either a variabilis or an Amazonica.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Erica said:


> I'm open to the Mantis!- but what kind of vents would you suggest?


I wouldn't.... I've got a mantis guy working with hymenopus coronatus


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

I think. A pair of thumbs maybe more Would be just fine. DEPENDING (dont shot me yet people.) Lol. on how you used the space. Some might argue but you can add alot of "floorspace" depending on how you set it up. And thumbs will use every inch. I would think a pair of terrestrial darts would find it alittle tight. Also due to just there in general larger size. But they wouldnt use the space as well.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

If all banded imitators are like the ones I have, they'd love to hang out on all 6 sides of that thing! They literally sleep on the glass. It'd have to be set up well though...


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

frogwatcher said:


> I think. A pair of thumbs maybe more Would be just fine.


Really? More than a pair of thumbs in a 7 gallon tank? 

If you're really interested in going with a single frog then an amazonica might do. But I've never understood the compulsion to cram frogs into as small a space as we can....


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

If I may make a suggestion. Have you ever thought to place small brooms on the glass. For example. Say you had a log standing on its end in the center (or in a corner) there would the whole base around it to work with you could place small broms (im not familiar with plants. And if there are small blooming broms. Or if you can just keep them well trimmed.) On the glass you would have to use GS or some other form of base to mount the brom but if you kept it minimal I think I would look awsome and it would creat alot more surface area. And it would look cool to have floating broms or any plant. just a thought anyone feel free to let me know what you think of the idea.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

frogwatcher said:


> If I may make a suggestion. Have you ever thought to place small brooms on the glass. For example. Say you had a log standing on its end in the center (or in a corner) there would the whole base around it to work with you could place small broms (im not familiar with plants. And if there are small blooming broms. Or if you can just keep them well trimmed.) On the glass you would have to use GS or some other form of base to mount the brom but if you kept it minimal I think I would look awsome and it would creat alot more surface area. And it would look cool to have floating broms or any plant. just a thought anyone feel free to let me know what you think of the idea.


Good idea for a larger tank. Considering the size of this tank any brom that would meet those requirements without pushing out to press against the glass or plastic would likely be too small for any common thumbs to utilize properly.


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Really? More than a pair of thumbs in a 7 gallon tank?
> 
> If you're really interested in going with a single frog then an amazonica might do. But I've never understood the compulsion to cram frogs into as small a space as we can....[/QUOT
> 
> no way did I mean cram it full but I dont see why three imitator size frogs couldnt live comfortably. again if planted and built well. I agree no body should make an uncomfortable situation for there animals. I was only commenting that I thought it posible to under the right conditions posibly house more. I was not trying to imply or suggest that he cram it full. Sorry if my other post was missleading.


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Good idea for a larger tank. Considering the size of this tank any brom that would meet those requirements without pushing out to press against the glass or plastic would likely be too small for any common thumbs to utilize properly.



good point maybe making floating ledges. Would be more fuctional for creating extra floor space. I know its not the largest tank but I feel with its shape you could create a descent amount of livable usable space.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

frogwatcher said:


> good point maybe making floating ledges. Would be more fuctional for creating extra floor space. I know its not the largest tank but I feel with its shape you could create a descent amount of livable usable space.


With the right equipment you could also spend the rest of your life locked in a master bathroom and be semi comfortable... But I doubt if you'd want to.


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

Lol very good point. And thanks for the idea. Im already looking at my bathroom. In a whole new light.


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## redtxn (Apr 30, 2013)

I used to think mantis' were quite disagreeable little creatures until one grabbed my finger with both arms and bit me. They are voracious, but beautiful predators that now fascinate me. They are all over the place here in Texas and when I find one I usually bring it inside an place it in a repti-breeze enclosure with a potted phal or catt orchid for a few days so I can observe it hunting, before letting it go. The orchid mantis is absolutely stunning..... just my 2c.


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## Erica (Dec 11, 2010)

Ok. So 2 Imitators or (other)thumbnails would work, or one Amazonica would do great in the viv. There's also the orchid mantis. am I missing anything? I think any of them would look very nice in my vivarium.
All I have to do now is decide which one is my favorite!


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

Don't forget to check out the care instructions for each. Just so you know what each animals specific Needs are. that way you are fully prepaired. And ready to go when you get you new addition. Please let us know what yoou descide on.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Erica said:


> There's also the orchid mantis.


I don't know who came up with that whole 5 gallon per frog Theory.
But dart frogs move around and are so active I think it was a bad assumption. IMO.

Put this in that tiny 7 gallon 









And grow some orchids in the enclosure I am sure you will be happy with the results


Then go get a bigger tank like a 20 gallon and get some dart frogs


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

the best thing about orchid mantis is that they are stationary predators. They dont move much once they get a hunting perch they like. Perfect for a small terrarium


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## pooky125 (Jan 16, 2012)

What about a mourning gecko or two? They don't do quite the high humidity of frogs or mantis, but they're a small, fairly active arboreal interesting species. Might be worth looking into.


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## Neon Gliding Lizard (Oct 8, 2011)

pooky125 said:


> What about a mourning gecko or two? They don't do quite the high humidity of frogs or mantis, but they're a small, fairly active arboreal interesting species. Might be worth looking into.


Good point. Unfortunately, Mourning geckos are very social creatures and because they are also very active at night, they would need more than two adults to meet their needs. This would mean at least a 10Gl. Preferably a 20gl. And with two you are bound to get more as they are parthonogeinrc.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh Erica! I really think you should consider the mantis. Sooooo cool and beautiful.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

frogwatcher said:


> Lol very good point. And thanks for the idea. Im already looking at my bathroom. In a whole new light.


My friend recently told me my bathroom is more accommodating than he ever thought possible. I have a 1" memory foam bath mat, a padded toilet seat, a squat stool, and a dresser that doubles as a hamper (so you don't have to carry your dirty clothes down to the laundry room immediately)....



Erica said:


> Ok. So 2 Imitators or (other)thumbnails would work, or one Amazonica would do great in the viv. There's also the orchid mantis. am I missing anything? I think any of them would look very nice in my vivarium.
> All I have to do now is decide which one is my favorite!


I don't always consider how long a person has been a member of the forum indicative of much (I'd been in this hobby several years before ever registering, then again, some people have been here years and still don't have any dart frogs), but every now and then, when you're trying to gather advice, I think it can be beneficial to see how long a member has been around and gathering information of their own before accepting advice... kind of like a loose guide.... I think if you go back you'll notice the people telling you not to keep frogs in this tank, or to only keep one, or to at the very least need to design the crap out of it, have on average been here significantly longer than those insisting you can keep frogs in it.... Not that I don't think everyone's opinion has some merit to it, but I'd really hate for you to overstress your frogs and end up with nothing in the tank....


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Nicholas said:


> I don't know who came up with that whole 5 gallon per frog Theory.
> But dart frogs move around and are so active I think it was a bad assumption. IMO.


I think we as a hobby, and we as a board, have more or less abandoned that notion. It was originally created to have a general guideline for people new to the hobby (it was also generally assumed that you were going to have 2 or more frogs, can you imagine a leucomelas or a Giant Orange in a five gallon tank?). Of course that general rule was taken far too literally and then everyone was saying both "you must have AT LEAST 5 gallons per frog" AND "it's fine if you ONLY have 5 gallons per frog." Obviously there's a lot more than goes in to that (and frankly, I'd rather have less space with a really great design than more space poorly utilized). Still, I think it has its merit... I would not recommend keeping any dart frog in a tank for an extended period of time without offering AT LEAST 5 gallons per frog....


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

I wouldn't go more than 1 Amazonica in such a tiny enclosure. Although communal, Amazonica as do most frogs, still require their own personal space. 7 gallons with the dimensions you gave would be tight for anything more than a single. 

Now the orchid mantis is a great idea. 

Edit.... Smack is correct. 7 gallons provides no movement room for anything but one single frog and that's provided you utilize your vertical space adequately. 10 gallons is an appropriate size for pairs. I generally go 20h vertical for 3-5 thumbnails. 

Ed
Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

I try to follow the saying. Knowledge amungst other things comes with experience.
Even I sometimes forget that.  jake, Ed thank you for your posts "knowledge".


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## Los3r (Feb 20, 2013)

I was going to suggest a planted betta tank but then I saw that orchid mantis. Now I think you should do that


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

I have one very similar and think I'll take the orchid mantis route, too!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


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## asunderco (Apr 4, 2011)

Hymenopus coronatus - Malaysian Orchid Mantis. Good luck finding one for sale.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I would not recommend keeping any dart frog in a tank for an extended period of time without offering AT LEAST 5 gallons per frog....


Agreed.

But I think of it more along the lines of *usable space*.

You may have a 5 gallon tank.
But how much of that space can be utilized?

maybe 2 or 3 gallons if set up properly?

*Like you said* in effect.



SmackoftheGods said:


> I'd rather have less space with a really great design than more space poorly utilized


These are *my opinions* and so again what are *my suggestions*

I consider a 10 gallon perfect for 1 frog.
I also consider a 20 gallon good for a group of 3 frogs
a 40 gallon. I would put 4 to 5 in there depending on the species.

But again these are *my opinions*.

Others may disagree... That’s fine I am okay with that.
I will still think they are wrong. And they are okay with that too.

This is just what I have experienced works best for me.

Frogs get stressed in small enclosures.

It is like my wife. Seriously!
If I am too close to her for long, She get stressed the freak out.
But if I let her have her own space for a while. She is fine!




SmackoftheGods said:


> With the right equipment you could also spend the rest of your life locked in a master bathroom and be semi comfortable... But I doubt if you'd want to.


Try doing that with my wife... 


Erica. Please don't put a Frog in the bathroom.

Thanks.
-Nick


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

asunderco said:


> Hymenopus coronatus - Malaysian Orchid Mantis. Good luck finding one for sale.


 
Okay?

I found one right here for $15.00
Hymenopus coronatus (Malaysian Orchid Mantis) L2/L3 - $15.00 : Mantis Kingdom, Buy Praying Mantids and Supplies.


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## asunderco (Apr 4, 2011)

Nicholas said:


> Okay?
> 
> I found one right here for $15.00
> Hymenopus coronatus (Malaysian Orchid Mantis) L2/L3 - $15.00 : Mantis Kingdom, Buy Praying Mantids and Supplies.




Did you read it? 
Big red thing at the bottom right...


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

So?

When a particular person selling dart frog is out of a particular frog I would like I contact them to find out if when they will have it agian... Also



frogparty said:


> Yup. Put an orchid mantis in it. Happens that I'll have more here in just a bit.


It looks like frogparty will be getting some soon.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Nicholas said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But I think of it more along the lines of *usable space*.
> 
> ...


Eh, you're entitled to your opinion of course. But the term "frog" is too generic for me in this kind of discussion. I like the idea of "bigger is usually better." Most of my tanks are between 20 and 50 gallons, although I do have a couple of 10s that are working well for me. But it depends on the frog. Would I suggest keeping two histrionicus or pumilio in a 10 or even 20 gallon tank? Not usually....

And again, it also depends on how it's set up. How are you using your space? I've seen some 10 or 15 gallon tanks that are set up extremely well, with plenty of nooks and crannies. I've seen a 200 gallon tank with a single log and 18 inches of leaf litter. I'm not trying to say you should keep your frogs in a tiny tank, but I'm open to the possibility of success in small tanks. But there is too small, I tend to think that this tank is....

By the way, I could probably find you that mantid....


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Nicholas said:


> So?
> 
> When a particular person selling dart frog is out of a particular frog I would like I contact them to find out if when they will have it agian... Also
> 
> ...


From that particular site, it says that the mantises will be ready 10/7/07. it seems to me they haven't updated it in a while. If they have had mantises in stock, you'd think they would update the site.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

frog dude said:


> you'd think they would update the site.


 
Yeah you would think so... Maybe he dont care anymore.

But if your serious about that Mantid Erica or Frog dude.
I think SmackoftheGods gots the goods.


SmackoftheGods said:


> By the way, I could probably find you that mantid....


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> the term "frog" is too generic for me in this kind of discussion.


Agreed.



SmackoftheGods said:


> I like the idea of "bigger is usually better."


...That's what she said.



SmackoftheGods said:


> Most of my tanks are between 20 and 50 gallons,


I like your style. The smallest I have is a 40. Unfortunatly for me the movers broke it on my move to Germany. But that means they buy me a new tank 



SmackoftheGods said:


> I'm open to the possibility of success in small tanks. But there is too small, I tend to think that this tank is....


I am open to that possibility as well. But I am not open to the possibility of animal abuse. or poorly cared for and stressed out frogs and I dont believe this tank is. I am saying this tank is.
So this is the reason my default answer for anyone too resort to
..."That's what she said" -Bigger is better.


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## Erica (Dec 11, 2010)

Alright, I'm really liking the mantis!
do I still have to make the false bottom, and install a bulkhead with one of these though?
-and do they have these guys at expos? If not, Frogparty how far will you ship- I'm in Colorado


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Erica said:


> Alright, I'm really liking the mantis!
> do I still have to make the false bottom, and install a bulkhead with one of these though?
> -and do they have these guys at expos? If not, Frogparty how far will you ship- I'm in Colorado


No false bottom and no bulkhead....They are amazing creatures. I think you will find them quite rewarding. They are really observant and watching them eat is pretty cool as well.

Preadult female

















sent from my Galaxy S lll


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