# toes sticking together?



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i have a dart which has toes sticking toegther. well two sepecies. one is a tinc and one is an auratus. they are in quarantine. which consists of sphagnum moss, springtails, leaflitter and a hide-out. pretty damp and they are 190 0z quarantines. any ideas? kristy


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Are they active?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

yes i would say so. as much as can be expected in 190 oz containers. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

one of the auratus likes to hide under hut. other likes to be out and about but not active like in a viv of course. both eating. tinc as well. the auratus look like they are losing weight? kristy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I've seen that in the past with tree frogs. The only time I would see it would be during simulated dry cycles to induce breeding. If I had to guess I'd say that humidity may be playing a role. Since they're in 190oz containers I doubt that you have humidity gauges with them and with winter arriving the air is probably a bit dryer. If your heater in the house is anything like mine I would guess that it dries the air a bit as well.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

everything looks so wet though. is it reversible? could it be another cause? I mist once every other day or so.....and the room is not heated? i closed the vent. the containers are full of droplets everywhere, top to bottom? its got me paranoid. i admit. ocd germaphobe. i even use separate rubber gloves per container but what i havent been using is a separate mister. i do that once quarantine is over otherwise i would have like 50 misters! only 1 adult frog i put per container. kristy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

It would always correct itself with the tree frogs Kristy. I've never seen it on darts and I'm not certain that is what's causing it with yours. One suggestion would be to try misting one of them daily and see if the problem clears up with that one. I can't think of anything that I've ever heard of disease wise that would cause that symptom. I'm guessing that somebody has seen it with darts that visits the forum though.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> It would always correct itself with the tree frogs Kristy. I've never seen it on darts and I'm not certain that is what's causing it with yours. One suggestion would be to try misting one of them daily and see if the problem clears up with that one. I can't think of anything that I've ever heard of disease wise that would cause that symptom. I'm guessing that somebody has seen it with darts that visits the forum though.


thanks for the suggestion and will try that. lets see if anyone else has dealt with this issue as i cant be the only one. what are the possibilities i am trying to get at here to ease my mind. and possible solutions to this? i'll definately mist the crap out of them. even though i feel the humidity in the containers is well over 90 percent, but i'll still give it a try. always safe than sorry. anyone else can help it would greatly be appreciated as well or atleast agree with what jujub47 has suggested as well. kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Are these froglets or adults?

I have seen it before in CB pumilio, in addition to other systemic signs suggestive of hypocalcemia.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

adults....i would say they are well supplimented though? i change my suppliments out definately before the six month mark. whatcha think oz? its driving me bonkers. kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Are they truly connected? If you took a blunt edge, could you separate them?

I have no proof that the connected toes in pumilio is related to hypocalcemia - but it occurs in conjunction with other signs (what looks like fibrous osteodystrophy of the distal antebrachium; stunting of long bone growth; and seizures). At some point in the future, I would love to take some specimens, embed and mount them - and look at the pathology to see what is really going on.

But - if these are adults, I don't know if hypocalcemia could cause that amount of remodeling (in a relatively short time period).


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

rozdaboff said:


> Are they truly connected? If you took a blunt edge, could you separate them?
> 
> I have no proof that the connected toes in pumilio is related to hypocalcemia - but it occurs in conjunction with other signs (what looks like fibrous osteodystrophy of the distal antebrachium; stunting of long bone growth; and seizures). At some point in the future, I would love to take some specimens, embed and mount them - and look at the pathology to see what is really going on.
> 
> But - if these are adults, I don't know if hypocalcemia could cause that amount of remodeling (in a relatively short time period).


they are truly connected. any disease that could cause this? if i did do the blunt object thing. i worry would i be harming thme. stress for sure then trying to pry apart. almost looks as if they are have been turned into one toe when in fact they are twe. one of the auratus toes has a toe flipped up on rear side. very short onset. i asked dr.frye about the first when i noticed it. he thought it was either injury during shipping or something along the lines of birth defect. ok so i got my opinion omn the first matter, then this today i have noticed. on three separate frogs in three separat quarantines? odd? if i did pry with blunteed object how and what would you use and when to say forget it, its not working and only causing harm? i did order some calc gluc just coincidently for my froggy first aid kit ...clueless kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

No, No - I wasn't advocating prying them apart. I was just asking if you were sure they were fused - as opposed to just resting next to each other.

In and of itself, I wouldn't worry much about the fused toes, as they will likely get on just fine. But it could be indicative of a bigger problem. I don't personally know of any diseases that would result in digit fusion - that would be a question for someone far more experienced than me. 

There is a parasite of amphibians that causes cutaneous fusion and can also occasionally cause digit fusion (trematode, _Ribeiroia ondatrae_) [see http://www.colorado.edu/eeb/facultysites/pieter/documents/bufopaper.pdf] - but those frogs are infected as tadpoles and morph with the malformation (at least in Bufo). You are saying that the toes were normal, and then fused, right?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ok no prying. yes perfect frogs, then fused. what about that fungal med you once told me about? terbinafine? was that it? could i try it safely? worried like usual signed, kristy


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

I did have some Super Blue Auratus that were dropping weight and the toes were sticking together. Aaron had thought the it may be a calcium deficiency. Unfortunately, they did not make it. They had no desire or strength to eat or hunt. We tried calcium gluconate and another med that I can't remember right now. Good luck with them.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

reggorf said:


> I did have some Super Blue Auratus that were dropping weight and the toes were sticking together. Aaron had thought the it may be a calcium deficiency. Unfortunately, they did not make it. They had no desire or strength to eat or hunt. We tried calcium gluconate and another med that I can't remember right now. Good luck with them.


i need more luck bud!  kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

No. Right now you don't know what the cause of the fusion is - so I wouldn't recommend shotgunning meds at them. There is nothing that I see that suggests this is a fungal issue, so an anti-fungal won't do much for you.

You already tried Dr. Frye? Dr. Kevin Wright recently posted in a thread on parasites - so you could try and contact him, but I don't know how often he will check his messages. Ed K would also be a good person to try and PM.

I am studying for exams in the morning right now - but I perused my texts and couldn't find anything right off the bat.

Besides the fused toe, are they acting systemically ill (not-eating, lethargic, losing weight)? If not, right now you just have an odd observation.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ok so i am trying this. calc gluc in the mail still. but i am supplimenting really good. i put some ssd on them and metronidazole as they did have appetite loss and then seemed to eat better. sorry about the super blues. i am trying my hardest to figure this oput. get down to bottom of this. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ok no med shotguns. understood i hope ed can see this or i will just pm him as well. kristy


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## kwrightdvm (Sep 11, 2008)

Check your vitamin supplement and make sure they are getting enough vitamin A (not beta carotene). I have another post discussing vitamin A deficiency (sorry, I am new to the board and do not know the ins and outs of navigating). Sticky toes can be due to lack of vitamin A and the mucus-producing cells not producing slimey enough mucus anymore. It also makes them unable to capture food b/c the tongues aren't sticky and they often simply give up and quit eating.

Kevin Wright, DVM
Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

kwrightdvm said:


> Check your vitamin supplement and make sure they are getting enough vitamin A (not beta carotene). I have another post discussing vitamin A deficiency (sorry, I am new to the board and do not know the ins and outs of navigating). Sticky toes can be due to lack of vitamin A and the mucus-producing cells not producing slimey enough mucus anymore. It also makes them unable to capture food b/c the tongues aren't sticky and they often simply give up and quit eating.
> 
> Kevin Wright, DVM
> Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital


thank you. my vitamins are mixed at feeding time 1:1 ratio. rep-cal pink label and herptivite blue label and i change every four months as i have a rather large collection right now. goes quick when you need to feed larger darts. any recoyrse for this. will toes be permanent if this is the case? kristy


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

kristy55303 said:


> thank you. my vitamins are mixed at feeding time 1:1 ratio. rep-cal pink label and herptivite blue label and i change every four months as i have a rather large collection right now. goes quick when you need to feed larger darts. any recoyrse for this. will toes be permanent if this is the case? kristy


If Kevin is right about the vitamin A, and he mentions not in the form of beta-carotene, you will notice on the Herptivite label that it says it has no vitamin A.

Just an FYI, Dendrocare has vitamin A, you could think about trying to rotate that into you're supplement strategy.

Plenty of folks out there using exactly what you are though, and not necessarilly having "problems".

Perhaps some disorder that is not allowing the animal to convert the beta carotene to Vit A?


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Here's a link back to the article.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/9555-regular-treatment-parasites-2.html#post300129




kwrightdvm said:


> Check your vitamin supplement and make sure they are getting enough vitamin A (not beta carotene). I have another post discussing vitamin A deficiency (sorry, I am new to the board and do not know the ins and outs of navigating). Sticky toes can be due to lack of vitamin A and the mucus-producing cells not producing slimey enough mucus anymore. It also makes them unable to capture food b/c the tongues aren't sticky and they often simply give up and quit eating.
> 
> Kevin Wright, DVM
> Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ok. i see what you two are saying. now where in the heck do i get this stuff? anyhwhere local? i.e. pet stores or online where i can order overnight? recommendations to not overdose but give how much? so what i'll need is a say schedule.....and should it be done for all darts. do both of you use it? sounds like this could be my problem. here i am getting OCD about my whole collection, when maybe this is the issue. now, is this permanent do you think if i go this route as well. if so, can they live like this ok and breed fine? I was totally unaware and out of the loop on this as all i thought we needed was rep-cal and herptivite. I'll do whatever it takes, trust me. kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ok...not a huge fan of this vendor. i ordered dendrocare. no overnight shipping. after my order was processed i get a it will be processed in 6-7 days and could take weeks depending on shows when i wanted it overnighted. didnt offer me the overnight shipping after i gave my credit card info and it was processed (of course) searched internet. they are the only vendor it seems. so does anyone have this stuff? does anything i have have it? nutrarose??, or any tad food? pet store stuf temporarily? uggh. brian do you? you live close to me and it'd get jhere fairly quickly. melissa? anyone willing to ship overnight or have nay better ideas on how to get vit A into these darts? sorry after doing all this i couldnt add it to recent post, editing was lost. kristy


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I don't have any. 
Haven't used any in over a year.
Pretty sure the only vendor I know is probably the one you are talking about.

You could try looking at the pet shops for other reptile vitamins, and compare the vit a amounts to what is in the dendrocare.

Myself, I think I'd wait for a DVM (or get a hold of one) to chime in about the possibility of something being wrong where the animal cannot convert the beta carotene in the herptivite to Vit A.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

brian it is more than one species and involves three frogs. does light do any good. should i set up the quarantines under some really good lighting? right now they are just in quarantine room. is this the issue? i dont know what is up. talking to DVM right now. waiting for response. got to be patient. i know they had some i thought at mwff. now i have never once used this vit supplimentation. maybe i'll stop by petsmart? see if they have something with vit. A and try it once this week? do you know the amounts of vitamin A in dendrocare so i can compare? or a link on the ingredients? thanks a bunch brian. kristy


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I don't know, you should be able to find the amounts online somewhere, it's made in europe somewhere.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Dancing frogs said:


> I don't know, you should be able to find the amounts online somewhere, it's made in europe somewhere.


yep found the info. it says vit A 450,000 IE? is that the system we use to measure? just checking kristy

edit: everything else is in milligrams ok or % .....now is there anything i should watch out for. not buy do you think? i know i know ask a vet. doing that as well. thanks bud kristy


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Kristy,
did you happen to notice that any of the tips of the frog's toes were swollen? I have a tank of 6 to 10 month old tincs that have toes sticking together, not permanently fused, but obviously not normal. They also have a very thin clear membrane over the most swollen toe tips. Let me know if this is similar to your situation, and what treatments you try.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Dane said:


> Kristy,
> did you happen to notice that any of the tips of the frog's toes were swollen? I have a tank of 6 to 10 month old tincs that have toes sticking together, not permanently fused, but obviously not normal. They also have a very thin clear membrane over the most swollen toe tips. Let me know if this is similar to your situation, and what treatments you try.


i'm gonna get a magnifying glass out dane. my eyes deceive me. and i cant find my galsses and contacts are old. i will check. sounds familiar and alike though. grrr. is all i can say. I am going to try vitamin A. pm me if you want details. sounds like a legit reason than rather having me have a panick attack over my collection in quarantine ha ha kristy

p.s. pm me anyways got a question about what i needed before


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