# 24x18x24 Exo Terra: First viv



## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

I realized the longer I put this off the bigger of a job it would be to start this thread so I better get to it asap  

I've had an interest in dart frogs for 10 years +/-, and loved the idea of natural spaces "indoors" since I was a little girl (although my younger daydreams involved massive atriums and central courtyards...maybe some day XD), but was not really in a financial position to put money toward a build. Recently a friend of mine got a baby gecko and reignited my interest in herptiles, and I figured it was time to finally do it!

Have been researching and ordering stuff for months. Was kind of hoping to get a 36x18x24 but the local store that had tanks at all didn't have that size so I got the 24 inch long instead. Got some plant starts from someone local who used to be in the hobby which I've been growing out for a while, and also ordered some from an online vendor more recently.

Original plan was one of the green or turquoise and black varieties of D. auratus (the colors are amazing, love the green metallic look) but fishingguy12345 convinced me to look at Ranitomeya, specifically R. sirensis and I was convinced  The exact morph may depend on what's available when I am ready for frogs, we'll see. (R. amazonica is another possibility but I haven't looked into them as much.)

_Finally_ I got the glass drill bit a week or two ago and could drill the tank for overflow bulkhead and start working on it! (Just in time, it's properly autumn now as of a couple days ago, was much nicer to stand in a puddle in the driveway in warm weather than it would be today) 

I'll include select photos here but I have more up in my Flickr gallery. 

I originally wanted to include a water feature with a pond (what newbie doesn't?) but over time looking at builds and playing with pieces of cork and marking things out in the tank I finally realized that the pond I had in mind would be way too small for anything fun, and generally a waste of space as far as frogs are concerned. I can't quite stop myself completely, though, and am building a "waterfall" that will operate at a slow trickle and flow into a separated, highly draining part of the substrate to hopefully not cause saturation issues. Worst case scenario I can run it intermittently/infrequently if it causes too much moisture, and hopefully my design will allow it to still be useful roaming area for frogs, especially when it's not running.

Here's the most recent picture of the tank, with the two pieces in the middle "mocked up" to where I think they will be in the end (this picture doesn't show the manzanita branch I'll have on the right, either):









I'll make a couple follow up posts here with some details of various stages.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Looks like a good start. I'm always happy to get someone interested in _Ranitomeya sirensis_ ;-), they're among my favorite frogs in my collection.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Plants:
As mentioned above I received a handful of starts from a local, mostly pretty basic stuff but I got a few orchids and some other interesting things and I'm happy (I didn't pay anything for the plants themselves except the orchid starts so hard to beat free).

My favorite out of those is Trichoceros muralis, just because it's so tiny and different:









I also got an Encyclia ionophlebia which so far is fantastically happy and vigorous:









She also provided me with a couple paphiopedilums, some creeping fig (which I'm hesitant about using - how much of a weed is it if you decide you don't want it anymore?), a reddish cryptanthus, a start of Pellionia repens, a streptocarcus which seems quite happy, a tiny bit of some episcia which barely hung on (BUT I noticed the other day a couple leaves coming up in that pot! excited  ), a bit of ludisia discolor (which is probably the same as the houseplant I already had, but maybe not, we'll see) plus a couple other things that probably won't be suitable for the terrarium. (More photos in flickr!)

I also started a handful of cryptocorynes out of the aquarium. Predictably they lost all their aquatic leaves but starting wee little emersed leaves now.









My mother also donated a paphiopedilum which she's been having trouble with. It has no roots but still three large happy green leaves. We'll see if it can recover in a terrarium environment, it sure wasn't as a houseplant. 

I purchased a variety pack of ferns and of bromeliad starts, which I mentioned in another thread. (The broms looked terrible when I got them in, but are doing much better now) As well as a macodes petola which I'm so excited about:









And I'm trying to convince this Anubias nana to grow onto this rock. It will be placed where it can root into the substrate under the waterfall.









It's not real happy at the moment but I didn't really expect anything different. Just a question of how it does over time.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Now a couple shots from the progress stages, although it's already done and is less exciting to me than where it is _now_, maybe interesting to some of you 

Oh, I meant to include this with the plant post, this is where my plants are currently living. I got some crispiness on the ferns like this though which I took to mean it was too much light, and put some white trays over the top to diffuse the light some.











Our elaborate drill press setup for drilling the tank:









Drilling success! Totally appreciated all the threads on here about how to do it. It took us about an hour and a half from being set up and ready to start, to having the hole drilled.










The hole turned out super nice though! 

I'm building an internal circulation fan setup into the background. Like the waterfall, if it doesn't work like I want I can always run it intermittently and infrequently, but I wanted to have the option. I covered the intake and output vents with plastic canvas onto which I stitched no-see-um mesh and then used gorilla glue to attach to the PVC (designed to draw air up from substrate level and exhaust it at the top of the tank). Here is an in progress shot of the assembly:










And in place with the first, big chunk of cork and the waterfall framework:


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Looks like a great start! It will be interesting to see how your waterfall feature fairs out, I'm interested to see how to set it up to prevent the water from saturating the substrate. Plant selection is great! Can't wait to see it all planted.

I truly enjoy your drilling setup. A drill press would make this drilling process for a lot of people a ton easier. I was going to use one in my shop to drill some panes, but with all the shards and metal splinters from all the metal work, I didn't want to risk cracking glass. What you did is a perfect MacGyver solution!


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

These are two of my three favorite pieces of cork that I received in my order (the third is the piece I have taped upright in some of the shots, don't seem to have a photo of it specifically):










The little nook in the center of this is great. I'm anticipating frogs might enjoy hiding in it, but we'll see. I made sure to silicone the back of it thoroughly, since it seemed to go basically entirely through the piece of cork (some of the other nooks above and to the left are similar). The overall texture of the piece is great!

The second piece I just love the wide open mouth on it. It has a nice inner texture (not all of the rounds do). I think I will leave it open as a big cave for them to use as a hide. Pretty stinking big for ranitomeya, though. I guess I will see whether they like it  











I liked the layout of the main pieces like this, but the left side in front of the waterfall looked really empty to me. I had some other cork branch tubes but they are all so big, none of them fit the space without overwhelming it. 









(The two pots on the waterfall are slated for emersed cryptocoryne, btw) 

A friend of mine pointed out that "plants take up space too" and lead me to my ultimate answer: some nice textured cork and a planter that I can put a bromeliad and/or another plant in! 










I'm leaving the sides partially open glass and just filling in the back. Planning to apply vinyl wrap across the back / covered part of the sides once I am sure I plug up every hole a frog might sneak into. You can also see in this picture my basic false bottom setup (it's not yet attached but helped with positioning and visualization). I was originally planning leca but after reading various threads on here, and having plenty of egg crate leftover, I decided using egg crate was likely a better choice. It sits just above where the top of the drain bulkhead will be so there is a nice air gap. 

I'm attaching screen to the front edge of the false bottom so I can put a thin layer of substrate between the egg crate and the glass on the part that will be visible: 









Either leca or the fluval substrate that I'll be using under the waterfall. 

You can also see in the picture above the gap where the under-waterfall substrate will be. I still need to attach some plastic canvas/screen on that side of the structure to keep substrate in, and the false bottom platform needs some adjustment for the piece that will separate the two substrates, but should give an idea where I'm planning that to be. I think I'll attach that part this afternoon so maybe that will give a better idea. 

Finally, where I left it last night with the right side siliconed and curing:


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Thanks for the comments guys! 

I'm also interested to see how the water feature turns out. I'm going to construct it out of great stuff, painted in drylock, and try to separate the substrate areas with the same. Hopefully it does what I expect...it's a bit of an experiment. I noticed a lot of people have trouble with the silicone+coco fiber backgrounds wicking out of water sources, so I'm not going to apply that (or sphagnum) anywhere it seems like it might touch the water. (Mostly I'm trying to minimize great stuff in the background, but there are a few places it seems like the best choice - like the waterfall and around the fan tube. otherwise I'll stuff the cracks between cork with sphagnum.)

I'm a little more concerned about separating the substrates than the water channel itself, though - the under-waterfall area will go down into the water table and might wick if I don't manage to do a good job. The side toward the center of the tank will be separated with a ridge of GS painted in drylock, the side toward the front will have an egg crate divider topped with the rock I'm growing the anubias on and where that divider slants, the part under it will be just leca on the whole-substrate side. If it doesn't work like that I may have to tear that part out and rethink, but in theory it sounds good to me....


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

You can also create a partition with cut glass, you can get cheap sheets at Lowes or HomeDepot and cut them to fit (this is easy!) Once you do that your water area will be 100% partitioned off. My only hesitation with GS is that if an air pocket builds up and you don't see it, it may be a leak point.


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## Justin3 (Sep 28, 2020)

This already looks super impressive for a first tank setup! It seems like you've definitely done your research. I'm excited to see what frogs end up living in there (I have to suggest R sirensis green or orange, one of my favorites), they should be very happy!


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

The only insight I have frog wise to this is if you're looking for a water feature, go with Auratus. If you truly want Ranitomeya, I'd look into more of a drip wall that's not constantly on OR use this build to influence changes for a followup build for Ranitomeya. Not the best news to hear from someone, but who doesn't want another Viv


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## Justin3 (Sep 28, 2020)

Tihsho is right, Auratus do prefer a water feature (which is uncommon for dart frogs I believe), I was just getting excited about R sirensis.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> You can also create a partition with cut glass, you can get cheap sheets at Lowes or HomeDepot and cut them to fit (this is easy!) Once you do that your water area will be 100% partitioned off. My only hesitation with GS is that if an air pocket builds up and you don't see it, it may be a leak point.


Hmm, that's a thought. I do have some glass available, since the smallest sheet that was big enough to make a new lid for the tank was way too big.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Where are you guys getting your information that auratus are more tolerant of water features? I was not aware of this (though I learn new stuff everyday, so it might be true). Water features are not ideal for most dart frogs. It forces the tank into a much more humid environment than most darts would be used to in the wild (typically humid enough that you are limiting the frogs' ability to cool using evaporation). It also tends to introduce a lot of moisture into the substrate unless the tank is perfectly designed. This moisture is not great for the frogs, either. The only darts that I am aware of that actually live preferentially next to water are Epipedobates anythonyi or frogs from the genus Ameerega (these typically need a bit more space than other darts, however, so it might not be a great idea for the OP's tank). There are probably more, but those are the ones I can remember off the top of my head. Most darts typically live in leaf litter-dominated environments, some more arboreal than others. 

Mark


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

I'd also seen anecdotal mentions of auratus 'making use of' water features, although as far as being ideal or not...🤷‍♀️ 

This is why I am focusing design to keep water from wicking through the part where the waterfall drains, and will just run it intermittently if overall, it produces non favorable humidity/water splashing/etc conditions.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Encyclia said:


> Where are you guys getting your information that auratus are more tolerant of water features? I was not aware of this (though I learn new stuff everyday, so it might be true).


I'm basing my information off of a bunch of research as well as after talking to a handful of hobbyist breeders as well as personally seeing D. Auratus in the wild, specifically the Hawaiian variant. One of those key sources I've spoken to that made the information public would be Josh's Frogs. I've spoken to Zach and Thomas from JF's and they had mentioned that in their experience Auratus appreciate small water features. Personally, I've seen Auratus inhabit areas around small streams and a few feet away from a small waterfall. Seeing this in person leads me to believe that they have no issues with a water feature as long as there is drainage and other areas that allow them to dry out.

One thing that a lot of people seem to overlook is what the presence of water brings. It brings life. Based on that you're going to have larger animals providing waste, which in turn draws in some insects, insects are then food. Yes there are other species of prey that inhabit other places that are not as damp, but being around water also means the ambient humidity is higher. With a Viv, as long as there is venting (passive or active) I believe that some species are capable of living within the presence of a water feature without issues. 

On top of all of this I've seen Froggers who keep darts within their green houses. Besides _*Epipedobates anythonyi *_I've stumbled upon handfuls of articles over the past 10 years showing free range darts within greenhouses that contain much larger water features. I wouldn't condone keeping darts in something too deep or being around a water feature with current, but as long as the scaling is right to the enclosure I'm confident it can be done without harm. The issues in regards to this are making sure we compensate for the loss of floor space with scaling up the enclosure to accommodate and again, keeping an eye on ventilation and working to make sure that it's managed.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tihsho said:


> I'm basing my information off of a bunch of research as well as after talking to a handful of hobbyist breeders as well as personally seeing D. Auratus in the wild, specifically the Hawaiian variant. One of those key sources I've spoken to that made the information public would be Josh's Frogs. I've spoken to Zach and Thomas from JF's and they had mentioned that in their experience Auratus appreciate small water features. Personally, I've seen Auratus inhabit areas around small streams and a few feet away from a small waterfall. Seeing this in person leads me to believe that they have no issues with a water feature as long as there is drainage and other areas that allow them to dry out.


One reason I've seen mentioned as to why terrestrial frogs are found more near water is simply because the in situ microclimate is more suitable near water. In a viv, we don't need to have standing water to control humidity or substrate moisture or prey availability -- but in wild environments, standing water does do all this. So it doesn't follow from the fact that wild frogs are found near water that a captive animal would benefit from standing water -- though it might follow that whatever benefit the frog gets from living near water in the wild ought to be provided in captivity (which we do, though other means that are more suitable to captive culture). The pros and cons with standing water simply aren't the same in situ and in captivity. Also, there have been no wild frogs observed to be forced to live their entire lives within 18 inches of water -- the ability of wild animals to self-regulate is a huge difference from captive culture.

The same sort of argument holds about other issues, such as temperature -- wild frogs routinely experience temps that are reliably fatal in captivity. This is because other factors influence how frogs deal with temperature -- just like other factors are at play regarding the benefits of standing water.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Socratic Monologue said:


> One reason I've seen mentioned as to why terrestrial frogs are found more near water is simply because the in situ microclimate is more suitable near water. In a viv, we don't need to have standing water to control humidity or substrate moisture or prey availability -- but in wild environments, standing water does do all this. So it doesn't follow from the fact that wild frogs are found near water that a captive animal would benefit from standing water -- though it might follow that whatever benefit the frog gets from living near water in the wild ought to be provided in captivity (which we do, though other means that are more suitable to captive culture). The pros and cons with standing water simply aren't the same in situ and in captivity.
> 
> The same sort of argument holds about other issues, such as temperature -- wild frogs routinely experience temps that are reliably fatal in captivity. This is because other factors influence how frogs deal with temperature -- just like other factors are at play regarding the benefits of standing water.


Agreed on all points. That's why I said, we have to look at ventilation as the big thing here as well as how we can work on separating the water from the substrate. If we have the ventilation to provide adequate humidity values as well as make sure the substrate isn't water logged and able to dry out for both the flora and fauna, there shouldn't be an issue. If we're talking about a 'set and forget' process then this environment isn't suitable for a water feature, but if someone is going to dedicate the time and effort into dialing everything in, I strongly believe we need to revisit the whole 'shun water features' approach. 

Some additional key things I would be looking for in an enclosure that a water feature was going to be in:


Non converted aquarium
Active ventilation (using fans to create breezes within the enclosure so that fresh air is able to circulate multiple times a day)
Making sure that water within the enclosure isn't stagnant and has a slow flow 
Making sure that water is maintained with regular water changes
Making sure that there is some form of biological filtration to keep the water within the viv from getting to high with Ammonia or Nitrites.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

I fully intend to either get the water working in a way that works for producing decent conditions in the viv, or remove as much as I need to for it to work out....before I get frogs. (I have loads of time especially because I'm hoping to get a new job soon and then move - so I'd rather move before I get babies, honestly.) There's nothing waiting to go in but plants, so I have the flexibility to mess with it, for a while if need be (although hopefully not killing any plants in the process either  )

As far as Tihsho's list relating to my build.... it's a front opening Exo Terra, so the ventilation is available; I'm planning to glass about 2/3 or 3/4 of the top and screen the rest (thinking about it now, probably better to leave more screen, and make a movable cover as some folks have mentioned, especially since it might take a bit of work to dial in humidity/ventilation balances) 

I have a fan ready to go for circulation, although it's a pretty tiny little guy. If the CFM is inadequate I can upgrade to a higher flow fan later, just might be more work to set up (had a hard time finding anything I could just plug in with USB). On the other hand, being a low flow fan might be advantageous as far as just leaving it running a large part of the time. Will have to see how it balances.

Water wise, although I am planning a spot where it can pool shallowly on the path of the waterfall, mostly it will just go into the substrate and eventually fall down the drain tube. The intention is to have it cycle through a sump before pumping back up - and I can put a fair amount of water in there to help stabilize parameters and provide area for biological filtration. Also easy to change water from there. (I have done aquaria in the past, also.)

I have looked at various wild environments for darts and they seem to rarely be very wet at all - just humid. So I will be doing my best to create a similar environment. We'll see how hard I'm making it on myself  

I also got a MistKing, although I won't set it up until I have a handle on misting manually.

Set it upright again today, attached the rest of my armature for the fall drainage area. It's looking built enough to be exciting now! 










I'm a bit skeptical of how well these pieces stayed in place while I was arranging things, though. Seemed like every time I touched anything everything moved :/ Guess I'll see how difficult it is to wrangle the front of the false bottom in :X


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Update. Have discovered I hate GreatStuff. Will look deeply into alternatives for any future builds XD More pics uploaded to the Flickr album, here are some highlights.

Before GS:











Order of operations error. Should have foamed all around the PVC tube before installing the cork piece. Caused myself many headaches with this mistake. But, this view through the cork is really cool, and if I can adequately disguise the GS around this end of it, I intend to leave it "see through" when I vinyl wrap the outside.










This crevice was the bane of my yesterday morning. I spent like an extra hour trying over and over to shove the dispenser tube through the foam on the front to fill in the gap, because I could see the tank bottom through it at a certain angle and was plenty big enough for a frog to get lost in. Who knows where all that foam went, it wasn't there and I didn't see it anywhere else o.o

Finally I sacrificed a pipette and finagled it around the back of that cork, made sure it was lined up then shot foam through it:










It was ultimately successful though, fortunately!










Made a huge mess fixing the gaps caused by putting the big tube in too soon  But I got them filled at least.











I, uh, think this is just diseased. o.o











And curing GS looks terrible, honestly. I can't help but feel like I've ruined everything at this point, lol, even though I'm sure that's not actually the case!










Started to carve a bit, some of this will need more layers, next time I bust out a can of GS I will also need to attach the big upright tube in the center. Hopefully I'll be more clever about filling behind it first than I was last time...

Edit, somehow lost this image:










.... and, I overfilled it, already. Started to crack  I only filled the bottom 1/2 or 1/3, the top I'll put substrate in and plant something.











That's it for now. Probably get back out there this afternoon and mess with it. Realized I should probably fill in underneath the planter to the right of the waterfall area, maybe I will use some of the trimmed GS chunks and tack them in with gorilla glue so I don't have to wait for a solid block of GS to cure in there.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Looks great! Don't let GS bother you, it can always be trimmed. Worst case if you ever need it gone a few hours and a razorblade will leave everything back as new.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Yep, it doesn't seem too hard to trim, just maybe hard to trim so I like how it looks..... XD


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

That as well as trimming it while fighting angles from hardscape in the way. I had been dealing with that for a week haha. I've gotten away from trimming with a blade and just peeling it back. Takes off more, but I prefer the texture it leaves behind, seems more natural.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

What do you mean by peeling it back - like with your fingers, or? The hardscape issue is the biggest reason the last big piece of cork isn't in there yet! I don't think I'll escape trimming around it completely, but, maybe I can keep it to a minimum.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Yeah, I grab a nub of the foam and pull it back and peel off chunks. It provides a nice texture and randomizes the finish so that it doesn't look carved.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

I'll try that where the exact final shape isn't too important to my plans! Hopefully I'll get back out there today.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

FYI - the third can of GS foam I picked up at Home Depot the other day had a new design of spray nozzle on it, supposedly restartable (although "restart is not guaranteed"), we'll see about that. But even if the restart fails, it is SO MUCH EASIER to control and work with - it only sprays as long as you're spraying and doesn't continue to foam out of the end of the nozzle, and has a narrower, more precise tip. Trade off is it's easier to accidentally put down a really narrow line, not always very desirable. 

Halfway through today, gives a good idea of the overall shape of the waterfall area:










You can see a few places where my carving revealed the egg crate, and the gaps around the lower plant pot. Can also somewhat see how I piled a bunch of carved off bits under the right side of the fall to fill it in some. Was originally thinking of just spraying foam into the whole space, but realized that would be a big waste of foam and take forever to cure properly, so I piled up some pieces, braced them with a bit of egg crate, and foamed them into place. (would have been easier if they didn't fiercely static to everything!) 

Overall view from today's work:



















I peeled and pried a lot more foam than I cut. My thumbnails are _soorreee_ haha. Worth it though!! XD

The groove around the small piece of cork above the waterfall is where I intend to install the water hose. Will probably adhere it with black silicone after painting the GS with drylock.

A bit more carving and I can install the central cork piece; after I install the central cork piece and carve up the foam from that I can (let everything cure thoroughly and) start painting! 

Also realized it's going to be a bear to get my false bottom in. Might have to cut it into more pieces than I planned to and zip tie it all in place. I guess that'd be one advantage of leca....


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

One thing that would help when it comes to peeling is to slice into it slightly so you can get past the thicker 'smooth' layer. Once there is the initial slice you can peel everything back, just don't cut deep or the slice will guide the direction of how it breaks when you peel it.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

You can use pliers as well to trim. Save your fingernails.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Yep, tons of slicing and peeling and using a variety of tools. 

One problem I'm encountering is not being able to get it smooth in certain areas, notably where I can't shave it further down because it's in the egg crate supports, I have tried respraying and carving more but each layer just makes it patchier. Any suggestions? Maybe a filler that I can apply safely on top of the GS and under drylock? Ultimately most of these areas are probably going to have a coat of silicone, possibly with a bit of fluval worked into it, so it may not matter too much but it's awfully rough to get a solid coat of drylock so far. 

Back later with pics!


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Whoops, didn't make it back with the photos. And I thought I put some DSLR pictures on flickr of the setup with all the pieces installed? apparently not. Oh well, tablet photos will have to be good enough.

This happens to be my favorite cork feature in the whole tank. It's in the center of the big piece of cork on the back wall:








The backside is thoroughly siliconed, even though you can see light through it.  

Last DSLR shot I have of the tank:









And a couple shots from today (tablet camera):



















This is the piece I've been having trouble with the texture. Hopefully enough coats of drylock will be good enough, if not I guess I will have to look for something else:









I also have a few pieces of ghost wood that I haven't thought of anything good to do with yet. Any place I try placing them just looks busy :/ 










Open to suggestions though. 

Tomorrow hopefully I clean up, vacuum, and start painting!


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Got the first coat on, didn't end up getting to the second one tonight, we'll see when I have time again next. As I mentioned in the other thread the drylock is way thicker than I thought it would be! More like a barely paintable paste, less like a paint. Not the easiest thing to work with. Excited to see how it changed things though! 

pics are with it freshly wet:





































Wish I'd done more for those ventilation outlets to darken them, but not much I can do now, especially since the (white) plastic canvas is behind no-see-um mesh. Whoops :/


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Interesting that your Drylock was so thick? You did stir the bucket before using/pouring it into your painting container right? The stuff I got after a thorough mixing was thin enough that I could use craft brushes to get into the small nooks with a couple dabs of the brush.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tihsho said:


> I'm basing my information off of a bunch of research as well as after talking to a handful of hobbyist breeders as well as personally seeing D. Auratus in the wild, specifically the Hawaiian variant. One of those key sources I've spoken to that made the information public would be Josh's Frogs. I've spoken to Zach and Thomas from JF's and they had mentioned that in their experience Auratus appreciate small water features. Personally, I've seen Auratus inhabit areas around small streams and a few feet away from a small waterfall. Seeing this in person leads me to believe that they have no issues with a water feature as long as there is drainage and other areas that allow them to dry out.
> 
> One thing that a lot of people seem to overlook is what the presence of water brings. It brings life. Based on that you're going to have larger animals providing waste, which in turn draws in some insects, insects are then food. Yes there are other species of prey that inhabit other places that are not as damp, but being around water also means the ambient humidity is higher. With a Viv, as long as there is venting (passive or active) I believe that some species are capable of living within the presence of a water feature without issues.
> 
> On top of all of this I've seen Froggers who keep darts within their green houses. Besides _*Epipedobates anythonyi *_I've stumbled upon handfuls of articles over the past 10 years showing free range darts within greenhouses that contain much larger water features. I wouldn't condone keeping darts in something too deep or being around a water feature with current, but as long as the scaling is right to the enclosure I'm confident it can be done without harm. The issues in regards to this are making sure we compensate for the loss of floor space with scaling up the enclosure to accommodate and again, keeping an eye on ventilation and working to make sure that it's managed.


Sorry, I missed this when you wrote it the first time. Thanks for taking my request for information seriously. I am glad that you are doing some research. 

My biggest issue with the line of reasoning you are adopting is that of scale (sorry, I am a geographer, I can't help it ;-). You are saying that you saw Auratus within three feet of a waterfall and that you have read accounts of people keeping darts in a greenhouse with a water feature in it. I have no doubt that these are true accounts and that these situations are perfectly healthy environments for dart frogs long term. However, these are not scalable to the size vivarium most of us keep our frogs in. The environment 3 feet from a water feature in the wild is much closer to a vivarium that has no water feature than it is to one that has a water feature in it. Likewise, in an area the size of greenhouse, the water feature is something where the frog has a choice whether or not interact with it. This is not the case in most vivaria. If you were to scale nature down to what the conditions are like in a tank with a water feature, you would only be talking about the bank of a stream. That's it. The frogs would be forced to stay in that exact microniche for their entire lives. If you came to me with stories of Auratus being found _only _on the banks of streams, I would say, yeah, that species should have a water feature in their tanks. 

My understanding of most species of dart frogs, however, is that this is not the case. So, that's why I think that seeing a frog 3 feet from water in the wild (this may be as close as he ever gets to a water body) or frogs that live in a greenhouse (there is plenty of space to "escape" the water feature and its neighboring conditions). In our tanks, we are forcing an extremely specific set of circumstances onto our frogs by having large water features. They can't escape it because there just isn't the space to do so. I choose to design my tanks based on the vast majority of in situ reports and pictures I see where the frogs are directly interacting with trees, plants, and leaf litter rather than the relatively few reports of dart interacting with large water bodies in the wild. That is my decision, though, and other opinions may vary. 

I could live my whole life in the room with the indoor pool in a motel, but I wouldn't enjoy it. It smells like chlorine all the time and I would never stop sweating  I want to make my tanks as close to what the frogs would experience in nature as I can. They aren't smelling chlorine all the time (hopefully!) and they don't sweat, but what other factors are making them just as uncomfortable as I would be in the pool room? I am sure I don't get it right all the time, but I try. 

Anyway, that's my $0.02. I wish the OP and anyone else that wants a water feature in their tank the best of luck in their builds.

Mark


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> Interesting that your Drylock was so thick? You did stir the bucket before using/pouring it into your painting container right? The stuff I got after a thorough mixing was thin enough that I could use craft brushes to get into the small nooks with a couple dabs of the brush.


Maybe I wasn't super clear with my descriptions (trying to describe viscosity is always, hm, interesting). I was able to use a craft brush to get into nooks, but it was definitely more like a goopy paste than a liquid paint. Maybe like a runny, gritty frosting?  

@Encyclia , I respect your opinion on this and similar lines of thinking are why I chose to make it not output into a pool in the substrate (although I may have ended up with a bit deeper pool on the 'landing' than I had intended, might have to adjust that) but instead just drain into the false bottom below. If running it constantly or even consistently doesn't seem like a good idea, I can run it once in a while as more of a "rainstorm rinse" situation - maybe just for a few minutes at a time. 

I keep wanting to get back out and work on it but have been so tired the past couple days I haven't got any farther than getting the top half of the second coat on (the parts accessible with it laying on it's back). Frustrating but I guess I shouldn't be too worried about how soon I finish something I'm building for pleasure and not for work


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Understood, Anna. I am looking forward to seeing how the tank looks when you are done. I don't have a good feel for it based on the skeleton I am seeing so far. I completely understand not being able to muster the energy to work on a project every day. Sometimes that's a good thing because you come back with fresh insight  Just take your time and it will all come together in the end.

Mark


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## Leite02 (Jan 19, 2020)

Yes, my friend @Encyclia is absolutely right. 

I think we have all gone through the phase where the hobby becomes something that must be ended as soon as possible. And here comes the problems. "It has not been as I had imagined", design errors, etc.
I think that this is the time to take a few days off (even if your head tells you otherwise) and come back with renewed strength and you can even see things from another perspective and detect things that you had overlooked.

Sorry, far be it from me to interfere , it's not advice, just a thought.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Hey all.

Progress was a bit slow for a few days, and then when there _was_ progress, I didn't end up updating the thread! Looks like my last pictures were from the first coat of drylock or so, let's see....

This has got to be one of my favorite views through the tank. I am weirdly obsessed over it. Hopefully some frog thinks it's as cool as I do .... might be a bit large for most of them to treat as a hide, though, since it's big enough for me to stick my arm down. (fortunately, or the glass would have been rekt...) 










From the outside, different day. there's a bit of smudging from the black silicone that I'm not sure if I'll be able to clean up, but I intend to leave the glass open here so I can see down it. (The non-open glass will be getting a black vinyl wrap)










It's a bit hard to tell which photos are from which stage in dry brushing now that I just grabbed a handful out of the flickr gallery and they aren't sorted by date anymore, but I think these should show it pretty well: 

































Then the water test:

















Water output is basically exactly what I hoped for, so on to silicone....


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

I'm not _super_ happy with how the silicone on the falls turned out, to be honest, but it's too late to do anything about it now. The coco fiber parts elsewhere I'm pleased with, I varied between the rock texture and the coco fiber texture to try to give a "rocks emerging from the earth" feel to it.

Waterfall:
On its back before I vacuumed it up (you can see the toothpicks I used to keep the water passages clear, hopefully):


















The water output, still on its back, after vacuuming (and removing toothpicks). The fluval didn't attach very well to the silicone in some places, I think it was too dusty. If I do this again I'll be sure to rinse it and let it dry ahead of time. Hopefully I can get some moss coverage or something to hide it ... 










overall upright shot (also includes some silicone on the edges that's still drying):










Fan hole round 1 (40 mm Noctua fan). The fan itself is wrapped in wax paper and I made a cradle for it with silicone. Didn't 100% work but I think it's enough to keep it centered. Might have to do more to attach it later if it's noisy or something. 










After that dried and I cleaned up the loose coco/peat, I made a seal for the cap by wrapping that in plastic wrap and siliconing around it: 









As of this writing that's still drying and I haven't tested it yet. Hopefully I can even get it out of that corner 😅

Pics of other parts of the tank during the silicone/coco process: 

























Getting so close!!! 

In the next couple days I'll vacuum up the loose coco/etc, check for anything I missed, and then on to installing bulkheads, putting the egg crate in for the false bottom, and getting the glass top ready.... after that I think it's just waiting til silicone cures and then I can plant!


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Tank is getting pretty "done" minus substrate: 









So I figured it was a good time to work on the lid. 

Didn't go so well  










Practiced a bunch on what was left, but apparently I really am bad at cutting glass (it was either following a straight edge OR a good score that broke clean.... Never both......) so I'm seriously considering whether I want to risk a second piece of glass or if I should call around and find somewhere to have it made. :/


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## Leite02 (Jan 19, 2020)

Hi @dwllama
Any news about the progress of the viv? I am quite curious!


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Thanks for asking! I got kind of discouraged after breaking the glass that was meant for the lid, and didn't do much for a while. But we did make some progress the past few days, I should have a couple more pictures to share tonight or tomorrow. 

Still waiting to resolve the lid - probably going to find a shop to cut a piece but haven't made any calls yet. But, the tank itself is inside, using the screen lid for the moment. My dad welded up a stand for it that is waiting for me to paint it once I finish my lunch, I can put substrate, etc in once that's dry and ready and then I can plant! So, almost there. I'll share some more photos once I have a chance to get them from the camera. 

It's exciting to see it inside with a light on it, even if it's not quite actually set up yet. Makes it seem almost official


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## Gastrotheca (Sep 4, 2020)

If you want some glass or acrylic to be precut to the size that you want, you should try Ace Hardware. Really quick and clean work. 

Good Luck!

Gastrotheca
----------------------------
Crested Gecko 0.2.0


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## Leite02 (Jan 19, 2020)

Do not be discouraged! When you see it planted you will see that all the worry and problems have been worth it! I will be looking forward to the results!!


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Thanks guys! Trying to decide if I actually have to wait a little longer to put in substrate and plant. Still has a faint vinegary smell even though it has been over two weeks since I applied any silicone :/ maybe I'll spray it down and let it dry and see how it goes from there. 

Also, got some clean up crew ready to go, they've been hanging out in various small containers waiting for the tank to be ready.... Here's my dwarf white isos settling in


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Okay, I meant to come back with some pictures, but then I didn't get around to it, and then I had more stuff to share pictures of and the more pictures I had to share, the harder it was to get around to actually uploading anything 😅 But I got a bunch now!

The newest batch of photos start here in my album, but here are some highlights. 

The tank waiting for the stand, in more or less its "final" location as long as I live here:










My dad welded me a stand, it's so cool.



















On the stand, starting to put in substrates. I filled the edges of the false bottom with leca for looks, and topped it with a bit of fluval (not in this picture). Apparently springtails love wet leca and fluval. 










Making a mess.










Original plan called for a cryptocoryne in this hole, but I like this fern here so much better.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Right side of tank with plants in:



























Marcgravia 









After a few days I decided to move this bromeliad, I had propped it against the back wall with toothpicks around its root stem, but it wasn't stable and I couldn't see it well. Much better here. There were a couple cryptocorynes I originally put here that I moved down to the bottom of the waterfall instead.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Oh I didn't put up a shot of the waterfall yet. It's tidier than this now, it had leftover debris from putting in substrates at first:




























Most helpful cat:











I think I'm going to have to move that Korean Rock Fern. It's really doing poorly. But I'm not sure what to do with it, maybe just pot it up as a houseplant? :/

And a couple fresh shots from just now since somehow I didn't get any full tank shots after I planted everything 🤔



















Finally getting enough springtails in there I actually see them now and again, things are settling down in general in the tank. I didn't run the waterfall after the first day until today because I finally got a cord long enough for the fan yesterday. Took a few days for the substrate to dry out (was super wet when I installed it, oops) but, now I have about 80% humidity at surface level most of the time (although up to high 80s, low 90s while the waterfall is running, at least with the monitor sitting more or less where that stick is in front of the waterfall) and when I leave the monitor on top of the big open log it's usually around 70-80% depending on when I last misted. Although I haven't checked that since I set up the fan, I'll see how it fluctuates tomorrow. 

There's way more mold than I would like, but I'm waiting for the springs to multiply and do their job. Threw a few isos in too but I haven't seen them since (and my mother colonies aren't very big yet so I didn't put in that many yet.) It smells a little funny, but mostly just how the leaves smelled when I microwaved them, so I'm just being patient and waiting, see what happens.

Oh, yeah, and the big brom on the left side managed to carry a _ton_ of leca with it when I pulled it out of the grow out bin. I'll trim some of that off once it grows new roots, but didn't want to disturb it any more than necessary to start out.


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## Leite02 (Jan 19, 2020)

Great job! Very beatiful!


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## Bubba614 (Jun 14, 2020)

dwllama said:


> Oh I didn't put up a shot of the waterfall yet. It's tidier than this now, it had leftover debris from putting in substrates at first:
> View attachment 296349
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great! Was fun watching the process.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Thanks guys! I still have to do something about the lid. Right now I'm using the exo-terra's screen lid wrapped with plastic wrap...but that's not exactly ideal..... XD But other than that, it's a question of letting things settle and grow in and seeing if I need to make any adjustments, now.

I think if I were to do it again I'd mess with the placement of the center branch a little more before finalizing it, it ended up basically cutting the tank in half visually, which is less than ideal, but I'm happy with everything else hardscape wise I think.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Hey all,
boy has it been forever since I updated this thread! 
After setting up the tank, I got a job and moved in April. Didn't have much energy for doing anything with anything after the new job in the middle of setting up the new place. Then this summer was unreasonably hot and I couldn't imagine shipping animals in such weather. Finally as things started to cool down - and off and on as I checked in between - I was looking for sirensis either orange or rio patchiteo yellow - and couldn't find any availability. 

Last weekend I came to a multi pronged realization: my original choice, auratus, was probably a better beginner frog; they are much more available; and I only had a week or two left of shippable weather before it got too cold! 

So as of yesterday I now have 3 wee dendrobates auratus Costa Rica Green and Black from Josh's frogs in a plastic bin for monitoring for a few days. I'd like to be sure I see all three of them eat before I move them into the tank proper, but that's complicated by the fact that I can't get flies locally that I know of and somehow my address (which is fine in the order screen) got messed up on the shipments and I haven't received my flies yet. Fortunately I have plenty of dwarf white isopods... for a few days, anyway. It's just difficult to guess how many got eaten, since they are good at hiding as well!

One of the three is bold as you please and was all over the bin in the first hours after arrival. The other two are more shy. Interestingly, he seems to be a bit of a different color (bluer) and have a slightly different pattern. Hopefully once they're in the glass I can get some better pictures, the bin they are in now is hazy and hard to photograph through. Is it normal for auratus of the same morph to have noticeable variation in hue and pattern?

If all goes well with the auratus, once I have a bigger home again some day and room for another tank I will look into ranitomeya sirensis again. They are very lovely and I still adore them.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Not having any luck attaching the video I took but here are some photos from this weekend.


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Some of the above photos are before I tidied up the foreground and put a bunch of fresh leaves down to prepare for new frens. Speaking of frens.....


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

A couple more tank photos from today while I was preparing to move the babies in. Also got some java moss and a selaginella to include. Ideally this would have all been here earlier and grown in but none of my prior moss efforts took off as the tank was way too dry up until recently, so, new plants fresh installed, we'll see how it goes.






































Also the roots on this bromeliad pup are just insane


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