# Blue Jeans



## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Am I missing something or have there been a lot of Blue Jeans up for sale lately? Has there been a break through on importing them from Europe or Costa Rica? Why are people getting rid of their pairs?

When is this going to happen with mystis? 

Jeff


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Blue Jeans were brought in legally...but after their initial importation, only a few people hung onto them and continued working with them (read: boom/bust fad cycle in the hobby). There has finally been some pretty decent success in consistently producing offspring, most of which were passed along to folks who would most likely be successful with them...not just any willing buyer. But it seems perhaps people are letting them go now with higher numbers of CB juveniles...that, or people are passing off Man Creeks as Blue Jeans. Or perhaps people obtained some and planned on just moving them along to make some cash.

Mysteriosus are an entirely different issue as they are considered illegal (no legal exports have ever occured of the species out of Peru, I believe) by the USFWS. What seems to be happening is that animals are smuggled into Europe (some, like histrionica, in VERY high numbers). Technically, offspring can be legally exported to the states as long as they are CB...but from what I understand, the 'strictness' of that CB definition is pretty loose. So what appears to be happening is that frogs are illegally smuggled into Europe...some of them are bred, and then CB (and sometimes not) frogs are shipped to the states with legal documentation. Mysteriosus, I assume because of the high profile nature of their situation at the time, have remained on the illegal list while similar species appear to be making it through (the ethics of which is up to the hobbyist to decide).


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

I'm sure the current state of the economy isn't helping either . . . gotta be tough sitting on a couple of tiny EXPENSIVE frogs that aren't breeding for you . . . hopefully the ones that are up for sale are going to capable folks!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> Blue Jeans were brought in legally...but after their initial importation, only a few people hung onto them and continued working with them (read: boom/bust fad cycle in the hobby). There has finally been some pretty decent success in consistently producing offspring, most of which were passed along to folks who would most likely be successful with them...not just any willing buyer. But it seems perhaps people are letting them go now with higher numbers of CB juveniles...that, or people are passing off Man Creeks as Blue Jeans. Or perhaps people obtained some and planned on just moving them along to make some cash.


My understanding is that the many that are now available, with the exception of Aaron's and Rich's, are recent subadult and adult "imports" from Europe which means that they are likely WC frogs.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

It seems to me that some must have been smuggled in via Europe. There is no way this many adults would become available within the last couple weeks. 

Also, about Peru, according to the CITES page, there have been no exports since 2007 for any dendros and I didn't see benedicta listed....

Dendrobates fantasticus 300 
Dendrobates Imitator 500 
Dendrobates variabilis 700 
Dendrobates ventrimaculatus 60 
Epipedobates(Cryptophyllobates)azureiventris 600 
Epipedobates bassleri 400 
Epipedobates cainarachi 12 
Epipedobates pongoensis 12 
Epipedobates trivittatus 400 

Jeremy


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

First off


the benedicta were exported legally through Mark Pepper who has very good relations with teh Peruvian Government and CITES paper work,


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

JeremyHuff said:


> It seems to me that some must have been smuggled in via Europe. There is no way this many adults would become available within the last couple weeks.
> 
> Also, about Peru, according to the CITES page, there have been no exports since 2007 for any dendros and I didn't see benedicta listed....
> 
> ...


all these frogs can be obtained from Mark Pepper with legallity.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

stemcellular said:


> My understanding is that the many that are now available, with the exception of Aaron's and Rich's, are recent subadult and adult "imports" from Europe which means that they are likely WC frogs.


Ah, I wasn't aware of the imports.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> Ah, I wasn't aware of the imports.


Oh yeah, Ron, adult BJs, $200 each. (And please everyone, don't PM me asking from who, where, etc. as I won't respond).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is also possible that Nicaragua is starting to increase exports again as some of the recent imported red eye tree frogs ( for example) look like those from Nicaragua... If Nicaragua did start exporting again, they would probably ship some of the higher value animals to Europe first....

Ed


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## brooklyndartfrogs (Nov 19, 2005)

Damian has imported a bunch in the past couple of months and they came from Europe. He was told they are CB.
Andy


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm already getting emails about this so I will address it. Peru has and continues to export small numbers of poison frogs, which we receive. These data bases are not frequently updated, and it is up to the exporting country, in this case Peru to submit their numbers to the databank, and with the recent overhaul of INRENA, or what was INRENA, it might be some time to come. Recently named species such as benedicta, pepperi, altamazonica, and many others are not yet even in the CITES database. (I should point out that benedicta wasn't described scientifically until 2008, and we had been working with that frog, thinking it to be a fantastica since 2005) This lag between science and CITES is a huge problem, and I am personally working with one of the CITES Scientific advisors here in Canada on hopefully getting this corrected as it pertains to dart frogs. This however takes times as it has to be voted upon by the conference of the parties (COP) when they convene. They next convene in early 2010 and this wont be ready by then, so likely the earliest we may see some of these names will be 2013. Until then they are exported as the species they were formerly considered; ie benedicta = fantastica, pepperi=bassleri.

I should clarify, neither pongoensis or cainarachi can be obtained through us at this time.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Thank you for clarifying that Mark.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks Mark. Its very reassuring to know that you are out there working on this stuff.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Julio said:


> First off
> 
> 
> the benedicta were exported legally through Mark Pepper who has very good relations with teh Peruvian Government and CITES paper work,


Julio, I was simply looking online on the CITES website under quotas. Peru hasn't listed any exports since 2007, which surprised me. I understand Mark has been working with the species for several years and I understand it came in under a different name. 

I am also concerned about Panama. They are a member of CITES, but I have not seen any quotas. This makes me think they are exporting more than the initial quota agreed upon, whatever that may be.

Jeremy


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

MPepper said:


> I'm already getting emails about this so I will address it. Peru has and continues to export small numbers of poison frogs, which we receive. These data bases are not frequently updated, and it is up to the exporting country, in this case Peru to submit their numbers to the databank, and with the recent overhaul of INRENA, or what was INRENA, it might be some time to come. Recently named species such as benedicta, pepperi, altamazonica, and many others are not yet even in the CITES database. (I should point out that benedicta wasn't described scientifically until 2008, and we had been working with that frog, thinking it to be a fantastica since 2005) This lag between science and CITES is a huge problem, and I am personally working with one of the CITES Scientific advisors here in Canada on hopefully getting this corrected as it pertains to dart frogs. This however takes times as it has to be voted upon by the conference of the parties (COP) when they convene. They next convene in early 2010 and this wont be ready by then, so likely the earliest we may see some of these names will be 2013. Until then they are exported as the species they were formerly considered; ie benedicta = fantastica, pepperi=bassleri.
> 
> I should clarify, neither pongoensis or cainarachi can be obtained through us at this time.


Thanks for clearing things up Mark. I appreciate how forthcoming you are about your imports.

Jeremy


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## brooklyndartfrogs (Nov 19, 2005)

Mark you are a godsend!
I wholeheartedly support/appreciate everything you do!
Andy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JeremyHuff said:


> I am also concerned about Panama. They are a member of CITES, but I have not seen any quotas. This makes me think they are exporting more than the initial quota agreed upon, whatever that may be.


As I understand it Panama chose to not set a limit on the numbers they were exporting. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

brooklyndartfrogs said:


> Damian has imported a bunch in the past couple of months and they came from Europe. He was told they are CB.
> Andy


I'm not knocking Damian, but shipping wc as cb from Europe has happened in the past.... for example, years ago, one of the main exporters of galactanotus from Europe into the USA was eventually convicted as laundering wc and cb and it appears that virtually none of the animals he exported were cb.... 

Ed


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

So is this the same thing that's going on with the recent rise in histo sightings in the US? I've seen more of several morphs plus sylvaticus 'litas' either offered or in a collection in the past year.
Well not only histos but other species that haven't been available before like fulgubrita, flavovitata, and vanzollinii. Aside from UE not many others publicize their imports, (I dont' care why, I can think of valid and not so valid reasons) but (and this is the only opinion I'm going to say out loud) this is just like azureus most came in illegally in the beginning and were put in various breeders hands then years later we have a steady population in the U.S. 

I guess to clarify my question, are there just more European Imports coming in now?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

armed2teeth said:


> So is this the same thing that's going on with the recent rise in histo sightings in the US? I've seen more of several morphs plus sylvaticus 'litas' either offered or in a collection in the past year.


From what I understand, it is a pretty loose/easy process to export animals from Europe as being captive-bred. You might have a handful of juveniles along with hordes of full grown adults...and they are all exported under the title of "captive-bred" (as Ed mentioned in his above post).

Christmann, in his _Dendrobatidae_ series, makes an interesting comment about looking for sylvatica in northern Ecuador and southern Colombia...specifically around the forest village of Lita. He mentions that the forest was so dense there that finding frogs by site was practically impossible, and that they had to rely on listening for calling males and following the sound of their voice through the vegetation. As a result, the vast majority of the sylvatica they managed to find and collect were males. 

It makes one wonder why the imports of "CB" sylvatica have been so intensely male-heavy...


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

So because the point of entry on some species is more muddled than others it's easier to get them exported now.


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## Brien (Aug 27, 2009)

Maybe because the ones that are importing are not stupid and are keeping the females for their own breeding and so nobody else can breed them. Its monopoly 101


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Stupidity is relative


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

brien said:


> Maybe because the ones that are importing are not stupid and are keeping the females for their own breeding and so nobody else can breed them. Its monopoly 101


Usually people have issues when attempting to keep pumilio in groups unless they are working with large enclosures with very dense resource allocations so this is is unlikely... as it would still indicate a very unbalanced sex ratio. 

Ed


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

what about this theory: the people who collect the frogs in the wild go for the calling frogs because they are pretty much easier to find? Calling=males....


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

valledelcauca said:


> what about this theory: the people who collect the frogs in the wild go for the calling frogs because they are pretty much easier to find? Calling=males....


The campesinos absolutely do go after the calling males.....they are getting paid per coloured frog, not per "sexed" frog.


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

valledelcauca said:


> what about this theory: the people who collect the frogs in the wild go for the calling frogs because they are pretty much easier to find? Calling=males....





skylsdale said:


> He mentions that the forest was so dense there that finding frogs by site was practically impossible, and that they had to rely on listening for calling males and following the sound of their voice through the vegetation. As a result, the *vast majority of the sylvatica they managed to find and collect were males.*



The message you have entered is too short.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

skylsdale said:


> From what I understand, it is a pretty loose/easy process to export animals from Europe as being captive-bred. You might have a handful of juveniles along with hordes of full grown adults...and they are all exported under the title of "captive-bred" (as Ed mentioned in his above post).
> 
> Christmann, in his _Dendrobatidae_ series, makes an interesting comment about looking for sylvatica in northern Ecuador and southern Colombia...specifically around the forest village of Lita. He mentions that the forest was so dense there that finding frogs by site was practically impossible, and that they had to rely on listening for calling males and following the sound of their voice through the vegetation. As a result, the vast majority of the sylvatica they managed to find and collect were males.
> 
> It makes one wonder why the imports of "CB" sylvatica have been so intensely male-heavy...



It is not an easy and lose as you might think, not many people want to do it anymore because it si a lot of headaches and a whole lot of paperwork, not to mention the time and effort it takes to get the stuff to go through CITES. That is part of the reason why you dont' see many European orders like there used to be in the past.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> It is not an easy and lose as you might think, not many people want to do it anymore because it si a lot of headaches and a whole lot of paperwork, not to mention the time and effort it takes to get the stuff to go through CITES. That is part of the reason why you dont' see many European orders like there used to be in the past.


One of the biggest drawbacks when I've spoken to people is how easy it is to lose a lot of money.. between the person dropping out of sight without shipping or shipping what was promised and/or shipping something else and as a further complication, there are a number of cases where people have imported animals from Europe (some supposedly as cb and some not) only to have massive losses.. This is what happened with the "moonshine" galactanotus (if I remember correctly) and the sylvaticus lita (there was from my understanding a large loss of the females from that import). 

Once you get a import permit, the paperwork is a pain but not the onerous. The bigger problem for many people is that you have to import through specific ports and often have to pay a broker to get it through customs (this may be mandatory if it exceeds a certain value) and then it has to be inspected by USF&W. 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey Ed,
yeah losing money is a mjor issue when doing these european imports as you mentioned as well as not getting what you ordered.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Julio said:


> Hey Ed,
> yeah losing money is a mjor issue when doing these european imports as you mentioned as well as not getting what you ordered.


 
There's only ONE herp - _hobby type animal_ with a LOWER overall profit margin than frogs...

Caudates!

The mortality from shipping, stress and disease is extraordinarily high......much higher than Reptiles. 

Coupled with the much smaller consumer base for frogs and there you have it, in a nutshell.


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

melas said:


> The message you have entered is too short.



I guess I should have read the whole post, not only parts of it ;-) sorry


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

valledelcauca said:


> I guess I should have read the whole post, not only parts of it ;-) sorry


No worries!


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