# Ed Kowalski's crossbred frogs



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I remember seeing pics of Ed's tinc x azureus cross and tinc auratus cross frogs back around 2004-2005 timeframe. 
As froglets they looked rather plain. Does Ed or anyone else have adult pics of these frogs? Curious what changes occured


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott,
I never had these frogs in my possession.. They were deliberately bred by a zookeeper who was trying to pad out her resume for successful reproductions... Needless to say it wasn't the positive she hoped it would be. 

The frogs in the pictures are adults Ed K 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks Ed for posting that. Satisfied some curiosity I had about cross breeding. 
Buddy


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Tracy gave you credit for them way back when. Like I said originally Buddy, they were plain looking. I have seen many crossbred frogs, and I have only seen one that I thought was a good looking frog. People are curious because they think that one cool colored frog + another cool colored frog will equal a really cool colored frog. It doesn't work that way. The colors are muted and dull. I asked now because I wanted to see if there was a change and it was on my mind because of another cross I saw recently. I thought it was just a real close shot of juveniles from the angle and the deli cup. An Azureus or a tinc are far better looking than the frog in the picture.


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## frogmanchu (Feb 18, 2011)

I thought cross breeding was a no no?
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## SAS (Aug 6, 2011)

Do cross breeds occur in nature???


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

SAS said:


> Do cross breeds occur in nature???


I'm sure they do to a small extent.
I do believe that the recent White Banded Fants are a product of this occuring.
(Although it is suspected to be human fault unintentionally)


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Where locales neighbor each other, yes. This is obvious in tincs and pumilio. Look at a distribution map of tincs in brazil. and compare 3 neighboring morphs. You can usually see the east and west morphs in the center locale morph. I will give you an example in a bit using pumilio from del toro


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## frogmanchu (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks

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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Cossing morphs is definetly a no-no also, but not an example of crossbreeding. Crossbreeding is the breeding of two distinct, though usually closely related species. Although heavily frowned upon, (and for good reason) breeding a Blue jeans Pumilio to a Rio Terribe Pumilio would not result in a crossbreed, simply a Mutt of a Pumilio. Now, because auratus, Tinctorius and Leucomelas are all closely related, they can interbreed. The offspring are usually sterile, and these are definetly crossbreeds. I've seen Leuc x auratus, Tinc x auratus and Tinc auratus and Leuc c tinc. Although I wouldnt say any were ugly, none were attractive.


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## friz (Jul 25, 2012)

Anybody know how can crossbreed species ?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

If offspring of tincXaur or leuc are usually sterile, I wonder if offspring of crossing ranitomeya, for example imitator VaraderoXFantastica or BenedictaxChazuta, they are also sterile. I personally deplore crossbreeding.


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

Those are the oddest ugliest frogs ever. Thanks for the pics Ed.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

friz said:


> Anybody know how can crossbreed species ?


Duct tape, super glue, some plastic tie backs, and a kitchen blender.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> Where locales neighbor each other, yes. This is obvious in tincs and pumilio. Look at a distribution map of tincs in brazil. and compare 3 neighboring morphs. You can usually see the east and west morphs in the center locale morph. I will give you an example in a bit using pumilio from del toro


Isn't that how some morphs naturally occured?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jacobi said:


> Duct tape, super glue, some plastic tie backs, and a kitchen blender.


Seriously? That's not a crossbreed. That's a Froggy McNugget! They come in a 6, 9, or 20 piece size. New at McFroggles. Try some NOW!


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## frogmanchu (Feb 18, 2011)

Ok I think I got it. So if I took an alanis and a inferalanis and breed them that would be fine. Just like reginas and giant orange. I'm just trying to understand better.
Thanks

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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

frogmanchu said:


> Ok I think I got it. So if I took an alanis and a inferalanis and breed them that would be fine. Just like reginas and giant orange. I'm just trying to understand better.
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2


If you want to track back to exactly where the original imports came from (good luck) and then find factual (not theoretical) information that proves that the two populations coexist and breed in the wild... then sure, go ahead.

It is irresponsible to take a general approach of "well they come from a similar area so it shouldn't be a problem if I breed them, right?" There could be geographic factors that limit the interactions of the two morphs that are not apparent from google earth. 

Best rule of thumb is: Unless you have a legitimate source that can verify the two morphs commingle and breed together in the wild, don't do it.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

This is about to turn ugly I just remembered seeing the frogs years ago and wondered if there were any other pictures. The frogs were quite plain in the pictures I had seen. The only good looking cross I ever saw was an auratus green frog with cobalt pattern on its back in black.

I think you already know the answer to that question. No, it is not alright because people want to keep the locale populations seperate. And keep the blood lines pure. I respect that.

Now, as to my personal opinion, I believe we are going to experience huge problems in the future because of inbreeding. In the mid 1980's I traded a bunch of retf for a couple of dyeing poison dart frogs. That's what they were, all of them. Different patterns from different areas, but all of them just dyeing poison dart frogs. By the mid 1990s, people were heavy into seperating into morphs. And it is a shunnable offence today to not keep seperate. 

Here is the problem I forsee. Some of the tinc morphs are from one small local area. No matter which line you have, they are offspring of that one tiny local area. Therefore, they are all the same bloodline regardless of who you bought them from. period. Your male from Patrick and your female from SNDF are still related. Inbreeding generation after generation will eventually lead to problems.
With tincs there is some times a case where the frogs on one side of a ridge are one morph, the top of the ridge is another morph and the frogs in the valley on the other side are the third morph. Study a distribution map of tincs and see just how close locales truly are. In the del torro region of panama, pumilio populations are even closer to each other. 
Would breeding neighboring tinc morphs produce a genetically superior frog by introducing a seperate blood line? I think maybe so.

And on a side note, I don't know of anyone that has tried breeding crossbred frogs to acheive a third generation enough to prove they are sterile. I have no desire to try, but I believe that tincs and auratus are closely related enough to obtain fertile offspring. but don't feel it should be done. It wouldn't occur in nature.


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## frogmanchu (Feb 18, 2011)

I was just after a better understanding of it all. Didn't want to start any problems

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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

And I see nothing wrong with that and I fully encourage it. A better understanding makes the hobby stronger. And discussions help. But those discussions don't happen here. People just answer NO. And I believe they know the answer is no but don't know why it is NO


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

A few years ago I was repeatedly called a troll because I encouraged discussions on mixed tanks. Self proclaimed forum experts can say NO all they want, but people are going to do it. So why not give them the info they need to be successful. Now there is a sticky. And the topic comes up less. Discussing a touchy subject produced positive results


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## frogmanchu (Feb 18, 2011)

I dig that. I've been looking unto the whole alanis/inferalanis thing because thry look so much alike. All I found was a difference in importer and import date. Which brought about my questions. 

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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Because inferalanis is an invention of importers in the US. In Europe there is no such thing as inferalanis. They are kept together and bred together. The exporter said they all come from the same population in suriname. Some larger some smaller some more yellow some more orange but all the same population and all named after his daughter Alanis. Importers named the smaller ones interalanis to make more money. This could be a lesson in guilibility.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree they are the same frog and can be bed together. Just like powder blue and powder grey are the same frog. 

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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I agree they are the same frog and can be bed together. Just like powder blue and powder grey are the same frog.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI-M931 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Has anyone had two powder greys produce a powder blue frog? or two blues produce a grey?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Reef_Haven said:


> Has anyone had two powder greys produce a powder blue frog? or two blues produce a grey?


Yes, powder grays have come from powder blues. By breeding two powder grays, it is selective line breeding for the gray color which does not occur in nature. Even though we are suppose to be keeping the frogs like their natural populations. 
I recall a woman about 10 years ago was called names and chased off because she was line breeding albino alanis and it was not natural. 
Speaking of natural, where is the natural locale of the Lemon Drop tinc? That is a trick question! Lemon drop tincs DO NOT OCCUR IN NATURE. Nope, lemon drop tincs are purposely line bred Saul tincs with the desired traits. Yep, the lemon drop morph is a creation of the people that tell you not to do such things. 
And seeing how the first Sips were actually found while collecting Azureus and share markings of the Azureus, I have always wondered what the cross was? It is a natural cross not a man forced cross, but i believe it to be a distinct cross.


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## SAS (Aug 6, 2011)

Anyone have information on pumilio morph crosses? I am not going to do it, but I can't help but be curious about what the results would look like.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

No question there are natural intergrades where two different populations overlap in their ranges. They are found in the wild and that's the way it is and I have no problem with that. Man made monsters are a different story entirely.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> Yes, powder grays have come from powder blues. By breeding two powder grays, it is selective line breeding for the gray color which does not occur in nature. Even though we are suppose to be keeping the frogs like their natural populations.


Got any pictures of two wc powder blues that produced powder greys? or a documented reference?
Greys most certainly do exist in nature. I just haven't found anyone with two blues or two greys throwing off both greys and blues. I have seen some muddled looking color offspring from a grey and blue bred together.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Contact DB member Detrick105 since he has F1 powder blues that are the offspring of WC powder grays. He has been a member since 2005.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

sas does this help?


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Maybe Troy will "pitch in" about his cross breeding "experiments." I am still curious where these frogs went or if in his collection now.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

you mean the 8 .black and yellow tincs?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

This reminds me of how a member (Jeremy huff?) was crossing giant orange and Regina becaue they come from the same population.

I always read on the board about how pumilio and wc animals have "so much variability", but when you look at most established morphs in the hobby, a lot of the frogs look almost identical


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

But didn't both importers come forward and claim they marketed Reginas and GO's under different names for marketing? At one point Sean Stewart and Patrick Nabors pics claimed the complete oppisate description.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Years ago I took a picture of what I believed to be an auratus/colbalt hybrid at a local pet store.* I have since lost the pic,* and the image site I guess is no longer hosting it. *But...*
It looked very much like this pic from the oddball cobalts thread, only I think it had less blue on the legs and wasn't quite as nice as this one being overall green with not so much or any blue...








http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/de...every-strange-frog-dirty-hybrid-outcross.html

The only evidence that it was a hybrid other then how it looked was the fact cobalts and green auratus were being sold in the tanks next to it and all frogs were from a local breeder. Incidentally the patterning on the back of the colbalts next to it, like the V on the back was almost identical. 

Also given the region of the country, how many people resell frogs from saurian.net locally, and just how many frogs originate from saurian period it is very likely this frog also originated from saurian, it is possible it was on of these "oddball cobalts" and not a hybrid...or somewhere down the line these "oddballs" actually did get some auratus blood mixed in and no one is aware of it, or willing to admit it. 

*So in the end I can't say for certain whether that frog, or any of these "oddballs" are hybrids.* I'm just sharing what I know. Which is the _possible_ hybrid I saw, looked very much like the one in the photo above.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Well, when you think about it, aren't all frogs in the hobby technically linebred as well as inbred? If say 50 Popa (don't know off top of head) were imported, and are already all related and collected from the same spot. All Popa in the hobby are from those frogs. No new blood lines are introduced. There will be minimal variation like in the wild populations that are supposed to be represented. 
Going back to the first Sips that were discovered while collecting Azureus. The pattern of the Sips is similar to Azureus but the coloration is different. Is the Sip an Azureus, a cross with a neighboring population, or just a tinc in the same locale as the Azureus? If they are both in the tinc family and the same locale, wouldn't they naturally breed among themselves?

I agree that Regina and Giant Orange are same population
Powder Blue and Powder Gray are same population
And Alanis and InferAlanis are same population.

These frogs are purposely linebred to produce certain traits. And as I stated earlier, the Lemon drop tinc is a designer morph created in the hobby by linebreeding Saul tincs. Frogs that are fine spot, micro spot, robins egg blue, etc are all line bred designer morphs as well. How is using linebreeding of a morph to create another morph not found in nature different than breeeding two morphs to create a designer morph when you think about it?

We need to document the line and locale and other information to track frogs back to the wild population. Is the locale of the Lemon drop tinc listed as so in so's frog room? Because that's where it was created.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> Here is the problem I forsee. Some of the tinc morphs are from one small local area. No matter which line you have, they are offspring of that one tiny local area. Therefore, they are all the same bloodline regardless of who you bought them from. period. Your male from Patrick and your female from SNDF are still related. Inbreeding generation after generation will eventually lead to problems.
> With tincs there is some times a case where the frogs on one side of a ridge are one morph, the top of the ridge is another morph and the frogs in the valley on the other side are the third morph. Study a distribution map of tincs and see just how close locales truly are. In the del torro region of panama, pumilio populations are even closer to each other.
> Would breeding neighboring tinc morphs produce a genetically superior frog by introducing a seperate blood line? I think maybe so.


While inbreeding can cause problems, outbreeding can also have issues. Ed has posted on this before. For example, see this thread which discusses both inbreeding and outbreeding: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/93340-breeding-question.html. 

I'm certainly no pumilio expert, but I was just in the Bocas del Toro so I have a few observations about the frogs there. I saw multiple populations on both Bastimentos ("cemetery" and "red frog beach") and Popa (Popa "north" and Popa "south"). I didn't hike the entire island to see if the two populations overlap at all for each of these two islands, but I suspect they may at least some because there appears to be suitable habitat in between. However, the two extremes had noticeable differences and I would not mix the two from separate locales. 

For example, RFB bastimentos were always red or red-orange with fine spots or no spots. The "Cemetery" bastimentos ranged in color from red, orange, yellow, white, etc. with larger spots and none were spotless that I saw. Essentially, if people decided captive bastimentos were too inbred so they would cross a RFB basti with a "cemetery" basti, I would say that type of cross does not naturally occur and it is a bad idea.
Bryan


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Dave, like I stated earlier, it used to be tincs were tincs. There were no locales to speak off, just frogs. And alot of them. Many that aren't available today. 
Back in the mid 90s, I saw an ad in the back of Reptiles magazine for a guy selling bearded dragons. I called him, and he lived a few blocks from ISU campus so my room mate and I walked over to get a beardie. 
On shelves in a closet with open bi fold doors he had a few tanks with dart frogs. His tincs looked different than what I had, but they were indeed tincs. That is when I met Patrick Nabors and bought a beardie from him. Soon after he more away from lizards and into ALOT of frogs. 

Offspring from tincs here back then could have some recessive traits that show sooner or later. And for the record, Patrick has been very diligent since tracking lines and locales began


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I remember that thread from when it was active Bryan, but I don't think we have enough research to prove that outbreeding wouldn't produce positive results. I do know that sooner or later we will be faced with the impact of breeding the same gene pool over and over without new blood lines


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I think most fogs in the hobby are indeed very inbred (as is the case for most things people try to domesticate or keep as pets). Which is why you get abnormalities like albinism popping up at a much higher frequency than in the wild.

And I don't know how I feel about the whole outbreeding depression thing. The paper the Ed presented once about it wasn't very convincing about it being a really huge threat, especially since it was comparing it to inbreeding depression. As I remember it, the repercussions of outbreeding were much less severe and much less immediate than inbreeding. So I really don't understand why outbreeding depression even gets brought up. It's like saying, "hey, there's this thing that might be potentially down the line, so let's not do that, and instead do this other thing that we know is WORSE". And isn't it like, a common practice to outcross sickly animal and plant strains into healthier ones to get a healthier stock that you can cross back with the original stock?

I've got nothing against preserving the way a morph looks because you want a representative holotype of the locality which it came from. In fact, I'm all for it, given that the forests that it came from might be totally gone in 50 years (or sooner). It's just that I feel bringing up outbreeding depression is a poor argument for continuing to inbreed.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I don't disagree with the concern over inbreeding's negative effects. I also don't understand the results of outbreeding depression as fully as some people, or which could potentially be more problematic. 

Clearly I think the best solution is to manage the frogs better when they are first imported. In addition to breeding frogs together from the same import, people need to know what breeder their cb frogs came from, and preferrably, the import info from the breeder. Otherwise, we have people with unknown frogs that look like they are from a certain population, but without knowing for sure, people keep them separate to be safe. After a few generations, these isolated frogs become inbred and the hobby may have artificially separated a frog population when it shouldn't have just because of lack of import info.

One of the problems with trying to outbreed for stronger genetics I think is finding suitable frogs to breed. Like I said before, some pumilio in the Bocas del Toro region may overlap in populations a little, but the frogs in the hobby available for crossing may only be from the two extremes. In Popa "north", (which look like the Popas I have) the frogs were smaller, darker, had no or very few spots, etc. compared to the Popa "south" frogs. If the hobby's Popa "south" frogs are few in number and have been inbred for generations, I would think a good candidate to try crossing would be from the intermediate zone between the north and south populations (if there is overlap). That would get some new genes involved in a way that occurs in the wild. However, if we only have Popa "north", I don't think that would be good to cross with Popa "south". Hopefully that makes sense.

Bryan


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I would have to agree 100%. The paper you are talking about says the risks would be low, but it is speculation really. Has it been tried? One example given was that an F1 x f9 breeding would also be a risk for OD. You know damn well this happens all the time now. As long as Auratus have been in the hobby I guarentee there are breedings that take place that are like f6 x f15. There is more of a risk that they are inbred as hell.
I have seen no research findings to back any of it up.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Bryan, no disrespect, but no it doesn't. You are putting to much importance on the visual traits of the Popa morph. Maybe a Popa just needs to be a healthy Popa not a certain color Popa. Visual traits are put before health which will eventually lead to the end of the hobby.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> I would have to agree 100%. The paper you are talking about says the risks would be low, but it is speculation really. Has it been tried? One example given was that an F1 x f9 breeding would also be a risk for OD. You know damn well this happens all the time now. As long as Auratus have been in the hobby I guarentee there are breedings that take place that are like f6 x f15. There is more of a risk that they are inbred as hell.
> I have seen no research findings to back any of it up.


Yeah, I could've sworn that I read in the paper that the authors themselves stated that they weren't sure about how penetrant or severe the effects of outbreeding were. I'm glad someone else actually read that part too haha. But the "depression" wasn't anywhere near as severe as inbreeding. And did they compare outbreeding to like, a control "normal" group's depression? I don't think they did? I wouldn't imagine that the outbreeding depression would be significantly higher than the normal depression.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

that's why i brought up research findings. without a known control it is a guess. I got the impression it was speculation. i didn't see where actual testing on dart frogs occurred. People need to stop getting all their info from "so and so on dendroboard said"


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> Bryan, no disrespect, but no it doesn't. You are putting to much importance on the visual traits of the Popa morph. Maybe a Popa just needs to be a healthy Popa not a certain color Popa. Visual traits are put before health which will eventually lead to the end of the hobby.


Maybe I didn't phrase it well... I'm not saying that visual appearance is a guaranteed identifier of a frog's population, but what I was trying to show with the physical traits comparison is that the two locales I saw were uniformly different from each other. It wouldn't have surprised me if the two were found on separate islands. I thought the goal of outbreeding was to cross an inbred animal with a genetically similar (if no unrelated specimens from the same population are available) animal to diversify and strengthen the gene pool, no? If so, wouldn't it make sense to try to cross frogs from closer locales that overlap and share the same gene pool, rather than from distant areas that would never come in contact in the wild? 
Bryan


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

yes, but i see no genetic differences between north and south Popa other than color. As a matter of fact, all populations in del torro are genetically matched


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

What do you mean all bocas del toro populations are genetically matched? If they were separated onto different islands thousands of years ago and evolved to have different colors, patterns, size, etc. then they have some different genes. They would all be the same if they were genetically identical.
Bryan


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Look up the paper I posted a picture of earlier and read it. It is actual research breeding across different del torro populations not speculation based off of doberman pinser dogs


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

And I didn't say genetically identical, I said genetically matched. Genetically identical is caused by inbreeding. 
Wild populations vary in size and color as evidenced earlier in this thread. Just as a skinny guy with blonde hair and blue eyes can breed with a fat woman with green eyes and red hair and have fertile healthy kids, pumilio from different populations can too. Researched and proven and documented.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I do have a question for you. You stated that the populations have been on different islands for thousands of years. With the make up of the del torro islands, I have to ask how you know this? Where is your evidence? I ask because less than 100 years ago, Vandalia, Illinois was on the east side of the missisippi river which is pretty wide river. Today, Vandalia, Illinois is on the west side of the river and technically in Missouri but a concession was made. The river changed course and eroded its new course. Do you know the islands were not connected?


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> I do have a question for you. You stated that the populations have been on different islands for thousands of years. With the make up of the del torro islands, I have to ask how you know this?


From History of Bocas del Toro Archipelago :
"The islands of Bocas del Toro were formed 8,000 to 10,000 years ago when the sea level rose with the melting of the polar caps at the end of the Ice Age. These islands were separated from the rest of Central America and so plants and fauna evolved that were unique to the region. For example the red poison dart frogs."



Scott Richardson said:


> And I didn't say genetically identical, I said genetically matched...Just as a skinny guy with blonde hair and blue eyes can breed with a fat woman with green eyes and red hair and have fertile healthy kids, pumilio from different populations can too.


My mistake, I misunderstood what you meant when you said "genetically matched." 
I don't disagree that different pumilio populations could breed and produce healthy offspring.

Maybe we aren't on the same page big picture about the whole oubreeding and natural overlap discussion. The way I see it, if you have to outbreed because the current stock is too inbred, you have two goals: 1) to strengthen the genetics by introducing new genes into the current limited gene pool, and 2) to do so in a way that keeps the frogs as close to the original wild type. So if you had the choice to outbreed two frogs from nearby, overlapping populations vs. one frog from one island with another from a completely different island or mainland miles away, wouldn't the former be a better choice?
Bryan


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

There certainly are certain morphs and species that were imported in such small numbers that the ultimate genetic bottleneck will occur at some point but that is a small % of what is in the hobby. Tincs have been brought up a lot, GO/Regina, Brazilian & Lorenzo come to mind of limited founding stock. I think we are a long way from intermixing morphs to create additional genetic diversity, with even the 3 mentioned. I would agree that importers have created morphs to increase demand, the GO/Regina's, Siplawini's (the green, blue, yellow), Powder blue/grey, Alanis/Inferalanis and these could or could not be mixed depending on personal preference. To keep as many localities pure is certainly the standard we should be held to, these are not random gecko's so far removed from their wild counterparts that they no longer exhibit any characteristics found in their native habitat. Keeping our hobby as pure as possible is what we as community have chosen to do, if you are not part of that so be it, you certainly can do what ever you want with your hobby. I have long espoused that this is your hobby, make of it what you want. If that takes you outside accepted and implied standards be prepared to be judged, good or bad this is a very small community and though there are secrets out there, they usually don't stay secret very long.
I like this type of discussions as it makes us question what we have in place and why, perhaps a day will come when answers are different but for now there is still so much new that changing some of the old isn't really necessary.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> And I didn't say genetically identical, I said genetically matched. Genetically identical is caused by inbreeding.
> Wild populations vary in size and color as evidenced earlier in this thread. Just as a skinny guy with blonde hair and blue eyes can breed with a fat woman with green eyes and red hair and have fertile healthy kids, pumilio from different populations can too. Researched and proven and documented.


I think using humans is a very good analogy because as a species we have very little genetic variability and are pretty inbred (scientists think there was some bottleneck event early in our history). And as a species we display many inbred characteristics, like being generally frail, and having a high incidence of genetic disorders like cancer.

A better thought experiment would be to cross two humans from different populations that have been separated for many thousands of years. Enough time to display very different phenotypes (which is basically the argument against outbreeding). Let's chose an African person (from Ethiopia?), and an Asian person (China). I think their "interracial" children would be at least as healthy as the general population; even probably healthier. There might even be data to back this up. Anecdotally, there is a strong correlation between the general attractiveness of a person and their general health. I think it's generally established that interracial persons are ver attractive haha


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Mark,
I haven't got the impression that anyone is wanting to crossbreed or cross populations. I do feel that this is a good conversation to have though. I think members of the hobby need to know things like genetics of the frogs. 
For years questions on mixed enclosures came up every week and people just replied you can't. Some said that because they heard someone else say it, others said so because they didn't want it to happen, but truth is it can be done and is done.
So that conversation needed to take place. I was called names and such but the conversation produced info for people to use for the benefit of the frogs. I haven't seen an influx of mixing since. To the opposite, I have seen a reduced number of hey can i posts. 

Bryan, 
I realize when they were created. but we don't know how many islands and there shapes and erosion, etc.
The missisippi river is damn old too. but like i said, it changed course and now a city in illinois is across the river. They say California erodes smaller and smaller each year.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

There are also people arguing their point for keeping pairs of tincs in 10 gallon tanks, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 
Mixing can be done correctly with proper planning, the right species, and appropriate sized tank. It its however not something that everyone will be successful at nor should everyone attempt. Especially new keepers just acquiring their first frogs

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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I agree completely. but I also know that just telling them no does not keep a beginner from doing so. By telling them what needs to be done, they decide not to do it because it is too much work. And if they do it, atleast they have the info to be successful and keep the frogs healthy.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I have a 100 gallon tank in my family room and as a display I have often thought about a 2 species viv...how cool it would be...such a nice display. I tried it 1 time for about 2 days, with a pair of Auratus and a group of 1.3 Pumilio...too small, no way too small. If someone had a 250 to 300 gallon enclosure it might work under the right circumstances but if keeping your frogs under the best possible conditions is your ultimate goal, then likely you will come to the same conclusion I did. Unless I have a room size enclosure, 1 species per tank and when they have a lot of room, way too much then it is one very happy species per tank.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

It all depends really. Sean Mckeown had a 40 gallon 36 x 18 set up in 1994 thru 1997 that I know of maybe longer. It housed a pair of cobalts and a pair of leucs. the cobalts hung out on an upper area of a hill and the leucs hung out down by the water and climbed the front glass. they didn't really interact. 
Of course Sean had a zoology degree and was in charge of Hawaii zoo thru the 70s and 80s before starting Vivarium. He had a little better understanding. His passing was a loss to the hobby


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

just to chip in on the mixing topic, cue the scary music, my large viv has been doing well with its mixed population. it is way to grown in for me to count frogs in but i am sure that there are still auratus, bakhuis tincs, leucs, vitatus, A. pepperi, and starry night tree frogs doing well in there. i have not seen any young. i have seen a male transporting tads. im not sure if they young are being destroyed by competing species or just not being produced regularly. as i dont ever intend to remove or sell frogs out of this viv i dont see the lack of reproduction as a negative. when i get time to clean out the overgrowth i will post new pics.


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## Firawen (Jan 29, 2012)

skanderson said:


> just to chip in on the mixing topic, cue the scary music, my large viv has been doing well with its mixed population. it is way to grown in for me to count frogs in but i am sure that there are still auratus, bakhuis tincs, leucs, vitatus, A. pepperi, and starry night tree frogs doing well in there. i have not seen any young. i have seen a male transporting tads. im not sure if they young are being destroyed by competing species or just not being produced regularly. as i dont ever intend to remove or sell frogs out of this viv i dont see the lack of reproduction as a negative. when i get time to clean out the overgrowth i will post new pics.


How large is "large"? That sounds like a lot of frogs regardless of species, I am interested to know how massive this tank must be.

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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Firawen said:


> How large is "large"? That sounds like a lot of frogs regardless of species, I am interested to know how massive this tank must be.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2


It's pretty big! http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/86056-my-large-mixed-viv-thread.html


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Bcs TX said:


> Maybe Troy will "pitch in" about his cross breeding "experiments." I am still curious where these frogs went or if in his collection now.


The alanicits, I had were in a 150 gallon Viv at my parents house, sadly all eight I had are no longer living... My mom and dad weren't the best frog owners.  , but they tried and had them living for a few more years after I moved. The other 8 that I had went to Richard. Last time I talked with him about them, he had said they started breeding for him, and was not going to release any offspring, But that was years ago....so I'm not really sure what the status is with his alanicits. Richard would have to fill you in. So as of now the only crosses I have and currently breed are "Giant Regina", which it seems the majority of the hobby does not consider them a cross.


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