# Importance of Nutritional FF Media?



## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

After researching many different homemade fruit fly recipes on this forum and the internet, I'm a little confused on how important it is to have real fruit ingredients or not. Recipes range from something as simple as sugar, potato flakes, brewers yeast to lists with 10+ ingredients. I have noticed that the recipe I'm using now with real fruit is producing a much larger quantity of of flies/maggots (maybe double?) compared to the non-fruit recipe I was using before. What I'm really wanting to know though is if having a FF media that is high in vitamins/minerals for "gut loading" flies is in anyway translating to a higher intake of vitamins/minerals in my frogs diet? I'm mainly asking because my frogs don't seem to eat many of the powdered flies and instead seem to go for the flies that have cleaned themselves of the supplement powder.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

From what I've read and hopefully interpreted correctly, no, the flies have little nutritional value after their change from larvae. Actually, I believe too much vitamin loading can be harmful to frogs if feeding out the larvae....please don't make me find the study...


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

jdooley195 said:


> From what I've read and hopefully interpreted correctly, no, the flies have little nutritional value after their change from larvae. Actually, I believe too much vitamin loading can be harmful to frogs if feeding out the larvae....please don't make me find the study...


I don't feed any larvae was just wondering if there would be any impact on the nutritional value of the flies. From what I've seen it seems the only consistent difference is quantity or speed of production.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jdooley195 said:


> From what I've read and hopefully interpreted correctly, no, the flies have little nutritional value after their change from larvae. Actually, I believe too much vitamin loading can be harmful to frogs if feeding out the larvae....please don't make me find the study...


I'm not.sure you said that as intended? 

The adult fles absolutely have nutritional value. They have to as they are the main feeder in the hobby. Now if you meant that the adult flies have few nutritional *needs*, then yes I believe that would be more correct. It has been so long since I read up on FFs though I forget how possible if at all it is to gut load a ff... If.memory serves last I heard, most any benefit would be seen because a healthy larva that ate well probably develops into a.more nutritious adult.

Now (again its been awhile but...) over supplementation (Feeding to many dusted flies to often) and/or improper supplement types and ratios can harm the frog, but unless your ffs are eating paint chips, bathed in insecticide, or are taking cianide pillz to preserve their honor in the face.of defeat.... or exposed to something similarly toxic, then I think you'd be hard pressed to poison a poisoned dart frog because a ff larva got an extra.dose of Popeye's spinach 

Where's Ed, school us on ff nutrition... I'm to lazy to brush up by digging through the internet right now .


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Thanks guys for the replies. My recipe is just a modified version of the power mix recipe found on Doyle's dart den. I use 3 bananas, half a can of grape concentrate (preservative free), one sweet potato, 1/8 cup dark molasses and equal parts vinegar and water. I let it all boil for an hour and then add to a mixture of 1:1:2 that is instant cream of wheat, debittered brewers yeast, instant potato flakes respectively. This is enough to make about 8 cultures with. I'm not sure if this translates to nutrient fortified flies but it would be nice if it does.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> I'm not.sure you said that as intended?
> 
> The adult fles absolutely have nutritional value. They have to as they are the main feeder in the hobby. Now if you meant that the adult flies have few nutritional *needs*, then yes I believe that would be more correct. It has been so long since I read up on FFs though I forget how possible if at all it is to gut load a ff... If.memory serves last I heard, most any benefit would be seen because a healthy larva that ate well probably develops into a.more nutritious adult.
> 
> ...


Heres some good ones Dave. 



Pumilo said:


> Gut loading flies in not effective and, in fact, can be quite detrimental. Many vitamins and minerals pass through the fly much too quickly to be of any benefit. Other vitamins can be sequestered, or stored, in the fly in levels hundreds or even thousands of times what it natural.
> For instance, vitamin E will be sequestered and levels can skyrocket. Then your frog eats many of these and has a vitamin E level much higher than it should be. Once the vitamin E level gets high enough in your frog, it can completely block the uptake of other vitamins, like vitamin D for instance. When vitamin D is absent, your frog cannot properly uptake and utilize calcium. You may still have plenty of calcium in his diet, but he cannot utilize it. Once the calcium blood level falls low enough, your frog can stretch out prone, twitch a few times, and die.
> Consider instead, relying on a quality dusting supplement to meet your frogs nutritional needs. I have been using the Repashy line of supplements and it's been working well for me.





Ed said:


> It technically isn't advise.. it's science... For some reviews of the science see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/67766-repashy-superfly-26.html#post608267
> 
> Calcium homeostasis in larval and adult Drosophila melanogaster. 2000 Archives of Insect Biochemistry and Physiology
> 44: 27-39
> ...


Also for your reading pleasure.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/38206-gut-loading.html


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Thanks for the links Jesse. I had read about how fruit flies are too efficient at extruding calcium to even bother with trying to affect their calcium/phosphorous ratios but had not heard about Vitamin E and how they can store it. I know sweet potatoes have some Vitamin E in them (about 15% daily value for a human) so maybe I should remove these from my recipe? I'll definitely have to do some research into how well they store Vitamin E.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Well kids that's why it is important to brush up from time to time... Cuz I waz only half right. 

...but that paint chips line was worth being half wrong


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> Well kids that's why it is important to brush up from time to time... Cuz I waz only half right.
> 
> ...but that paint chips line was worth being half wrong


Thats why we are here all here. One person can never remember everything


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Aldross said:


> Thats why we are here all here. One person can never remember everything



Ya at any given time I have 50-100 web paves open on a varety of topics, and I read that many most days, and a lot more other days.... ,I'm lucky if 10% of it sticks. Like our friend the mighty golddfish: Once around the bowl... and its all new to me


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm not sure that there's a consensus that attempting to gut load flies is ineffective or detrimental. Justin Yeager published a paper recently (2013 or newer). His results showed that flies raised on media enriched with carotenoids and then fed to pumilio pairs yielded greater success with froglet production and survival.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Spaff said:


> I'm not sure that there's a consensus that attempting to gut load flies is ineffective or detrimental. Justin Yeager published a paper recently (2013 or newer). His results showed that flies raised on media enriched with carotenoids and then fed to pumilio pairs yielded greater success with froglet production and survival.


Do you have a link to his results? I added the sweet potato and instant cream of wheat because they contain very high levels of beta carotene and retinol. I was hoping that this would help with Vitamin A levels somehow but couldn't find anything other than increasing the flies lifespan.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Yep...I was getting old info crossed...I was remembering research about the needs of flies and mixing it together about over enriched larvae dangers that I had read here.

Heres some great info on fly requirements though...The Quantitative Nutritional Requirements of Drosophila Melanogaster


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