# Azureus, what do yall think?



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

How big should azureus (or tincs in general) be before they are sexed? Is it based more on age or is based more on size?

Here's a couple pics of 1 of my azureus. This one has gotten a lot bigger than the other one and they're both approximately the same age. I understand that it could be in part that this one is dominant over the other, but I'm also curious what you guys think.

Couple pics:
Size Reference shot









Top-down









Toe-pads










Side









I've been leaning towards female because of the growth and size difference between the two frogs, but looking the toepads enlarged in the pictures I'm now leaning more towards male.


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

I guess it depends on how old they are but also size is important too, usually after a year you can tell for sure with tincs in my experience, I would say that looks to be a female but if its still growing the toe pads could change and so could body shape.

Is that riccia that he's standing on? ( the green mossy stuff)


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

azure89 said:


> I guess it depends on how old they are but also size is important too, usually after a year you can tell for sure with tincs in my experience, I would say that looks to be a female but if its still growing the toe pads could change and so could body shape.
> 
> Is that riccia that he's standing on? ( the green mossy stuff)


Thanks. They morphed out sometime in either April or May of last year, so we're getting close to the year mark. 

Yep, that's riccia. I've got a large "lawn" of it in the very front of my viv.


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

Oh ok nice, I like the riccia I may have to invest in some of that, so yea if they are almost a year than I would say female but you never know for sure until you see some calling or courting activity, in my opinion all darts are hard to sex but they get eaiser to call with lots of experience, good luck with them


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

The size of the frog at this age, the lower and "streamlined" shape, and the larger toepads would suggest that this is a male. By this age, though, he should be calling.

Richard.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I sure hope he's not a he  He's the larger of the two so I was hoping this he was a she and the other was a he. Maybe I won't be that lucky though... I didn't think about bringing this up before, but now that I think about it it may be relevant. Neither of my two frogs were kept well from birth. They weren't being supplemented, which led to some fused toepads that went away in all but one of the group of 4 froglets they were taken from once supplementation was implemented. I'm thinking then that they may then be stunted a bit in growth compared to what well cared for frogs would be at this age. Just a guess as to date I haven't seen any calling nor any mating behaviors. I watch them quite a bit and with just my wife and I our house is usually pretty quiet. Perhaps they'll be late bloomers.


The toepads aren't lobed. I read that males have larger heart-shaped toepads that have kinda a double-lobe to them. Is that a characteristic that only sometimes shows or am I mis-remembering something I've read. 

Thanks guys. I appreciate everyone's input.


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

Everything you said sounds correct, the lack of supplementation could have led to stunting and the males definately do have a heart shaped toe pads with tincs which are usually very distinct after several years of age, but some frogs the toes are not as good of an indicator as others


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Toepad dimorphism in Azureus isn't as dramatic as it is in other D. tinctorius. Females generally have very narrow toepads and the males are larger compared to the females.

"Runtiness" is a big problem in the hobby. Even with good conditions, an occasional froglet will just fail to thrive. If someone wants to keep them as display animals, that's fine, but they generally wouldn't be considered good for breeding.

Tinctorius will continue growing throughout the second year, so the best advice would be keeping feeding them well over the next years and hopefully they'll catch-up.

Good luck, Richard.



PeanutbuttER said:


> I sure hope he's not a he  He's the larger of the two so I was hoping this he was a she and the other was a he. Maybe I won't be that lucky though... I didn't think about bringing this up before, but now that I think about it it may be relevant. Neither of my two frogs were kept well from birth. They weren't being supplemented, which led to some fused toepads that went away in all but one of the group of 4 froglets they were taken from once supplementation was implemented. I'm thinking then that they may then be stunted a bit in growth compared to what well cared for frogs would be at this age. Just a guess as to date I haven't seen any calling nor any mating behaviors. I watch them quite a bit and with just my wife and I our house is usually pretty quiet. Perhaps they'll be late bloomers.
> 
> 
> The toepads aren't lobed. I read that males have larger heart-shaped toepads that have kinda a double-lobe to them. Is that a characteristic that only sometimes shows or am I mis-remembering something I've read.
> ...


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Woodsman said:


> Tinctorius will continue growing throughout the second year, so the best advice would be keeping feeding them well over the next years and hopefully they'll catch-up.


I agree, they will get bigger if you give them time. I had two azureus that were housed in a crowded grow out tank and were still pretty small for azureus at one year old, but I gave them more space and a two and a half years they are just on the smaller side of adult azureus but still an acceptable size. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe frogs never actually stop growing, even as adults. However, once they mature and start breeding, a large portion of their energy/ resources goes into reproduction (eggs, calling, courting, etc.) so they may grow so little you would never notice. Instead, try to discourage breeding a little longer, which will allow them to continue to grow at a faster speed, until they are a healthy size and you will get much better breeding when the time comes.
Bryan


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm not trying to actively breed them right now. I placed a petri dish under their coco hut so that when they're ready (and provided they're a pair) they'll have a place to go. I'll continue watching them for courting behaviors and see what I can find. Other than that, it's just business as usual as far as I'm concerned. Don't get me wrong though, I am most definitely excited for them to mature.

Their OOW dates are best guess dates, so smaller size may also to some degree mean that they were born closer to the end of what I was told. I'm not too worried. They're both healthy and active, which is enough for me right now.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I took some new shots to compare them both together. I'm getting a bit impatient with them (I just want to see some breeding behaviors so I know their sexes for sure...). I feed and mist daily to try and get them to show me some signs, but nothing yet. Next thing I will try is separating one for about a month and reintroducing them (and cutting back on feeding a bit. They could use a bit of a diet... my fault...). I'd like to know gender so that I can get them paired up if they're not already male/female. Age is now somewhere between 13 and 14 months for both of them.

The combined shots I thought may be more helpful for determining both their sexes than individual shots. Here's both together. The larger of the two is the one that I posted pictures of previously.










And here's an updated shot of the larger of the two. I tried to get a shot that clearly showed both the front and rear toepads. I have other shots as well if anyone wants a different view. Looks like none of the toepad shots were very clear so I also have no problem taking some more and getting a clearer shot of them.








clearer, but doesn't show the toepads as well.








Posture










Here's the smaller of the two. Toepads








Posture (Left-most frog)


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

Kinda looks like two females to me...


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## Frogzilla (Apr 4, 2011)

Nice frogs Arpeggio, I'm very far from an expert but in my limited experience I would agree that they are both female.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks guys. Staring at the toepads I could see them possibly being two females too but I don't have enough experience sexing for me to feel confident with my opinion alone.

If I separate them for a month and reintroduce them (and assuming their females) would that more than likely generate female-female aggression? After reading through a bunch of older threads it seemed like that was one way to get frogs raised together to view each other as potential mates (or in this case, competition) and display breeding behaviors which would help to identify them if they're male/female or male/male. However I don't really want to induce female/female aggression if I can avoid it. 

Does anyone know any other good ways of coaxing breeding behaviors beside what I've already tried (playing calls or feeding and misting daily)?


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Just an update - Both of the frogs pictured are confirmed egg-laying females now. Thanks for the help everyone!


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

how did you end up sexing them for sure? I have several frogs that are at the age they should be sexable or soon will be...


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I bought a proven male, then introduced him to the viv with these two (with a quarantine viv set up beside it ready to go at the first sign of aggression). That resulted in eggs from the larger female, but the other probable female did nothing out of the ordinary. No back stroking, no calling, no eggs. So, about 2 weeks ago I pulled the known female out into the quarantine viv and let the male and unknown hang out. I was going to let them stay together for about a month and if there were no eggs at that time, I would have switched the known male and the known female. If I had eggs after this switch, then that would have shown that the unknown was a male. However, I got good eggs after about a week of the male and unknown together so that solved it for me right there.


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

thanks for the speedy reply! great work by the way and good luck!


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks! If I was to do it again I'd forget the step about keeping them in a trio and just pair them up to see what happens. Good luck with yours!


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