# puzzling, persistent substrate dampness



## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

I'm wondering if there is an obvious explanation that I'm just not seeing to my seemingly constantly damp substrate. I think that's the reason for the failure of a _Selaginella uncinata_ and _S. kraussiana_ and the reason my _Ficus thunbergii_ went from establishing well at first to now gradually losing leaves and becoming chlorotic.

Specs: I have an Exo Terra large tall (36x18x24) that's been set up for maybe six or seven months now. I used the Growstone-like medium as a drainage layer, topped with window screening-type separator (not landscape fabric), and then the ABG mix + calcined clay pre-blended by the vendor. I soaked the substrate briefly in distilled water prior to laying it into the tank. I have glass insert covers over the stock screen top to help hold in humidity (they leave about an inch of screen strip to vent) and am using an LED panel from Spectral Designs. I have one multi-speed 2" computer fan to help circulate the air, on "low". The glass never fogs, and the hygrometer (just the cheap-o typical ones the size of a pack of gum that reads temp and humidity) never reads very high humidity except for overnight. It's in an abode with central air, so the room temps stay in the low 70s for the most part and the ambient room humidity in the winter sucks. I must get decent air exchange, though, because the tank's apparent dampness never seems to be very high during the day or fog up the glass. You would think that would help to dry the substrate, but...?

I don't have a water feature, and I mist by hand a couple of times a day, just enough to wet the wood and epiphytes. The misting isn't enough to rain on to the substrate in any meaningful amount. I rarely put water in the drainage layer because it doesn't seem to raise humidity, and when I have, the water level is well below the substrate barrier.

The trouble is, the substrate has never needed moistening since I put it in at the start. As this is a terrarium (no animals), I do use an eyedropper to occasionally dose the root zones of the few terrestrials in there (so far) with orchid or Tillandsia fertilizer. However, this doesn't happen often enough that it would explain the wetness. I don't understand why it's staying damp, and assume that's the reason the plants mentioned above failed. There are a couple of others that are struggling, though the rest are doing ok (not great, but ok).

Was soaking the substrate at the start ill-advised? Is the calcined clay contributing to this issue? (I've been trying to read through the related thread about its use as a substrate or drainage layer but the pictures come through so large on my screen that it's hard to follow.) Is it likely the dampness isn't the issue? I'm going to try more moisture-loving species next time I'm ready to add more terrestrials to see how that pans out. In the meantime, I would like to save the Ficus and prevent other plant failures. I am assuming it's a root issue since root and foliar feeding of the plant hasn't averted progression of the chlorosis. I know with temperate garden plants that poor root health can result in foliage malnourishment.

It's still a work-in-progress with regards to setup/planting, but the picture is fairly recent. I included a couple of the construction process. There are a couple pieces of wood that touch the base (at the time, I was foolishly planning on a water feature and a less terrestrial base). I doubt any wicking they're doing is causing this because the above-ground parts are never damp and you'd think that all this time wicking would have measurably dried things out.

What am I missing?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

My first thought is wicking. It almost has to be something wicking.
Wicking can actually move a lot of water, faster than you might think. It moves so much water, it has inspired an entire method of pump free hydroponic farming. 

_I used the Growstone-like medium as a drainage layer_

More details on this please. Is that the white stuff at the front, bottom, of the viv? If so, and if I'm seeing this right, I believe that's your culprit. I see small white particles touching the bottom of the vivarium, and touching the ABG. To my eye, those particles look way to small to be an effective drainage layer. Large particles, like pepples, are big enough that the surface tension of the water breaks before real wicking can really develop. The smaller the particle, the smaller the space between particles. That means the surface tension of the water can easily jump from particle to particle, lifting water ever upwards into the ABG mix. Now, you said growstone like media. To me that means something like LECA or Hydroton. That means porous. Porous holds more water than the pebbles we discussed. The fact that it's holding more water, helps keep everything wet, and further enhances the wicking action.

I believe you did something I did once upon a time. In using too fine a material for part or all of your drainage layer, I created a very efficient, completely power free, hydroponics system! I made the reverse of what I wanted to do. I did it using Turface, or calcined clay, which I've come to believe is a very poor choice for a drainage layer. I found that only a one inch strip of turface, used to hide the eggcrate/screen drainage layer, pulled several gallons of water out of the bottom and up into the substrate. It emptied the false bottom overnight. 

If my assumptions are correct, I'm pretty sure it's all about that drainage layer being too fine a particle, and possibly porosity adding to the problem.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

Nice to see a fellow Maryland'er 

I agree with Pumilo that if your substrate is wet its because of wicking. I have been doing an experiment lately exploring different drainage layer options. What I found is even gravels not designed to absorb water (such as pea gravel and marble chip) will wick water. I am assuming your 'growstone like' gravel is designed to absorb water so it will definitely wick. 

Fortunately the solution is very doable. You mention that you add water occasionally to your drainage layer. Just stop doing that. Also you will likely want to siphon out any water already in there (assuming you do not have a drain). You will need to disturb a corner of the viv but otherwise it shouldn't be too traumatic to your setup. If it were me I would tilt the whole viv and prop it up at a an angle to get as much out as possible. 

Without water in your base or even just moving the water line down as far as possible you will dry your substrate substantially better. Regular misting combined with normal humidity should be fine for all terrestrial plants we are growing. Since you are hand misting if you notice any plant needs more attention you could always mist that plant a little more. 

Hopefully this helps.


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Yeah, wicking was what I was assuming also. The puzzling thing for me is that I have hardly used the drainage layer as a water reservoir (especially since I noticed the trend of damp substrate awhile ago) and I definitely haven't deliberately put any water down in that layer for over a month (possibly even two...these weird days are messing with my sense of time).

I understand the idea behind the wicking physics of smaller particles though - capillary action and all that - though I admit I didn't give it much thought. You're right - these are on the small side relative to something like LECA balls. I'm just perplexed by the fact that, given how relatively little input the base has had, water-wise, why it hasn't dried out measurably in the past several months since being installed. Especially since the ambient humidity of the tank seems fairly low during the day (about 30-40% winter, 50-60% summer). Did I accidentally create some sort of self-contained system of water cycling just in the substrate and drainage layer (in other words, insufficient evaporation), where the initially soaked substrate slowly drip-drains into the drainage layer, only to be re-wicked back into the substrate?

The Growstone I've used for other things comes in multiple particle sizes (around a quarter inch up to an inch or more), and while that's just one brand of the stuff, I swear everything I see that looks like this is all the same material, just sold under different brands. If memory serves, it's recycled glass, and resembles pumice or a fine lava rock but is lighter in weight. In other applications, I've used the finer stuff as a potting soil amendment for succulent containers. It doesn't float like perlite does over time, and I think it's pH neutral given its composition. Anyway, the particular material I used was from Josh's Frogs (https://www.joshsfrogs.com/josh-s-frogs-drainage-layer-1-quart.html), though I have some unused from NEHerp that appears to be the same exact stuff, just the larger ~1" grade. Ditto Black Jungle, though it's a different color.

I did include a siphoning "port" when I installed the drainage layer - it's just a short vertical section of corrugated tubing that I can stick a turkey baster into in the front right corner - easy to access. Trouble is, there's nothing to siphon out - no free water. Presumably that's because it's locked-up where I don't want it. I do not have a drilled drain because I'm using the tank as-is and am not experienced or equipped (or ready to try) in drilling glass.

So, I'm wondering what the best approach is going forward. Do I pull out everything (terrestrial) and re-do the drainage layer? (With what, if I don't use suspended egg crate...LECA or...? Or is propped-up egg crate best?) Or just work with what I've got and use emergent aquatics, in the assumption that it's staying damp enough that they should prosper w/out free water for their roots? I do have a _Hemigraphis repanda_ in there that initially did well (may have just been a "thank you for taking me out of that tiny pot" growth spurt) and is now looking so-so.

I realize the trouble I'm willing to go through to fix this is up to me, but outside of that, are there other reasons to either re-do things or adapt the plant palette instead? I'm assuming the substrate mix itself isn't an issue, considering how prevalent it seems to be in this hobby.

Interestingly, the Growstone mixed into my succulent soil does not seem to hold moisture - if anything, I think it dries the mix out faster (a bonus in that case, certainly). When used as a topdress on some of those pots, it also seems to dry quickly - perhaps the better air circulation?


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

If there is no free water in the bottom of your tank then there is no real wicking going on. I feel like this is likely not your issue.

Plants might die from lots of other factors, insufficient light, not enough nutrients or the wrong kind of nutrients or too much nutrients, or they were just plain unhealthy to begin with etc. What makes you think the substrate is too damp? Your more recent picture shows a number of plants in the substrate, are those plants doing ok now or are there problems with their growth?


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Well, unless there's some localized wicking from wet substrate seeping moisture into the drainage layer and back again in an endless cycle. Still, I don't understand why the relatively low ambient humidity of the tank (and definitely outside the tank earlier this year from the central air) hasn't depleted a significant amount of that moisture since what I'm adding doesn't amount to much.

I don't doubt that I have root issues on a few things due to their care prior to planting. I have certainly over- and under-watered my share of houseplants. Several have declined after planting, though, and I think lighting issues would have manifested differently - darkening leaves with perhaps exacerbated shed of older growth when under-lit and bleached new growth with smaller-than normal leaves if over-lit. I can look up the specs of the light fixture if it would help, though.

Given the popularity of the component ingredients (and ABG mix in general), I assume pH is not a factor; I know that pH can influence nutrient availability. I'm using distilled water, though the fertilizer water is mixed with tap that might be a bit hard. The occasional (once or twice a month, tops) fertilizer has generated improvements in foliage on plants seem healthy. It does not seem to help those that are struggling. Since I doubt nutrient deficiencies (mainly chlorosis) in the foliage would manifest from insufficient lighting alone, I'm assuming it's a root issue - the roots are not able to absorb the nutrients present. And that usually means too much or too little water; given these circumstances, I'm guessing too much.

I can feel the dampness of the substrate, and it stays dark in color, unlike the lighter coloration of the component ingredients when dry (plus several unused dry bags in storage waiting for other projects). It easily sticks to my skin when lightly pressed - especially the clay bits - though it isn't so wet I can squeeze any water out of it.

The plants still in the substrate are a mixed bag. Some are doing acceptably well, while others are looking piqued and a few have simply died.

Plants doing ok (not necessarily spectacular, but at least ok):
_Hemigraphis repanda_
_Pilea peperomioides_
_Syngonium wendlandii_ (or _rayii_)
_Peperomia metallica_ (or similar)
_Philodendron_ Wend Imbe, from a cutting
_Hemionitis arifolia_
_Pilea involucrata_ Moon Valley (or similar) from cuttings which have since rooted
_Rhaphidophora cryptantha_ (from a plant I had acquired over a year ago and which slowly declined; I eventually took a few cuttings and the rest was a lost cause; there are four cuttings in the tank, one of which is doing far better than the rest and shingling up a piece of wood, albeit slow and with leaves still smaller than a dime)

Plants not doing well or declining, but not dead yet; some merely malnourished-looking:
_Episcia_ NOID
_Peperomia_ Rana Verde cutting
_Ficus thunbergii_ (_pumila_ Quercifolia) - grew very well at first, rooted onto background (foam + silicone + fine substrate covering), then began a steady decline losing leaves, chlorosis, and minimal new growth
_Ficus_ Panama (took longer to get chlorotic than the other Ficus; not planted in the "ground" but rather in a substrate-filled planter pocket of a net pot in the background about halfway up
_Adiantum_ Lace Lady (or Micropinnulum)
_Elaphoglossum peltatum_ (though this wasn't a stellar specimen to begin with and hasn't been in the tank as long)
_Gloxinella lindeniana_ (maybe it's going dormant? has lost lower leaves and is more floppy and a bit less richly colored than it used to be)

Full-on died:
_Piper parmatum_ (this one may have had issues prior to this, but I was hoping this might serve to rehab it a bit with better humidity than where it was growing...nope; new leaves at first but steady decline afterwards, and the leaves never even reached full size)
_Selaginella uncinata_ and _S. kraussiana_


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

If you have no drainage outlet and you are using hard water for the fertilizer feedings you are likely going to be building-up salt in your substrate - particularly since you don't see any water draining into the bottom. This may not be your immediate problem if this is a young viv - but it will be an issue over time.

Your current problem could also be an issue with young substrate. Freshly mixed substrates that use un-composted organic components need a period of weeks to months to mature because the first stages of decomposition require nitrogen before they begin releasing nitrogen. This means fresh organics _compete_ with plants for nutrients. Not sure if this is your issue but it could be - especially if you planted densely at the start.


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Greetings!

Terrestrial plantings are still fairly sparse (both at the start and currently), but this is an interesting idea. I imagine I do need to stock it with springtails - there are a few, but nowhere near the levels they probably should be - and that might help with nutrient cycling. (There has been very little in the way of mushrooms or visible fungi, if that means anything.) I was using fertilizer as I have no other sources of input (no animals) of nutrients. Since it's epiphyte fertilizer (orchids or tillies, depending on what I'm doing with it beforehand) it's probably lower-dose on some minerals than average, and it is urea-free. The fertilizer use is quite minimal...we're talking maybe a small pipette/eyedropper full per plant at most, just to dose it in the immediate vicinity of its roots. I get that it's a fairly closed system but I'd be surprised that it's going to be an issue for some time IF the plant roots are healthy enough to make use of the nutrients.

Still, I'll certainly keep it in mind. Nitrogen tie-up does make sense given what I know about fresh vs. aged wood chip use outdoors in the garden (for example), though the interveinal chlorosis I'm seeing (esp. on the _Ficus thunbergii_) suggests iron or magnesium deficiency instead of nitrogen. (The off-color Episcia and Peperomia certainly could be nitrogen, though I would have thought a temporary fix from the added ready-to-absorb N in the epiphyte fert. would alleviate that.)

Someday I'll graduate to drained setups! Alas, it'll be awhile. 

Since I'm still fairly new to terraria, I'm curious...is it normal to never have to water your terrestrial plants? Has anyone else had substrate never dry out to that point (if wicking weren't the issue)? Speaking of, do we still think this is wicking? Think I should redo the drainage layer or might a different plant selection (some emergent aquatics, perhaps) work out best?


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## Dr. Manhattan (Oct 28, 2016)

Beautiful vivarium. Some people get that placement of driftwood just right. 
On a side note I spent a week on the Delmarva Peninsula last summer (yes, Ocean City) and I absolutely loved it. Beautiful beaches and blue crabs galore, but I was amazed by all the beautiful farmland right outside Ocean City. Naturally I went exploring and found a pond/swamp habitat. Huge bald cypress trees, Crepe Myrtles, those magnolia trees with the leaves that don't rot after they fall off, and blue spotted sunfish. Unreal to think that exists just 360 or so miles from my house.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

I'm a little hung up on a couple of things I read here. 1) Two species of _Selaginella_ die from moist substrate (WTF?!?!?!) 2) Borosilicate glass has neutral pH (WTF?!?!?!?) 3) Growstone is dry (WTF?!?!?)

None of these square with my experiences. Specifically, 1) the best way to kill _Selaginella_ is with drought. Although most plants from high-precip areas do not like alkaline conditions, they like (need...) acid. So an alkaline bath might also work for killing _Selaginella_ (I've never tried, I favor them). 2) Borosilicate glass is alkaline as hell. You have to treat it like Portland cement - rinse it for weeks, or (dumb with cement, fine with glass) acid-bath it. Been there done that, hot tub test strips and all. 3) The wicking and water-holding capacity of Growstone is very high. It floats like a cork at first due to the extreme degree of internal vesiculation; but once it saturates it will sink (barely). And I think to get it truly dry you'd need to oven-bake it.

Given these thoughts, do you have any insights into what might be going wrong with your viv? E.g., your Fe / Mg deficiency chlorosis.

Good luck!


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Dr. Manhattan - thanks! I see it with a more critical eye, but I appreciate the compliment. And yes, Maryland is a neat place horticulturally since we're not too far north to grow some southern plants (crepemyrtle, southern magnolia) and not too far south to grow some northern plants (lilac, cranberry - barely!). I'm certainly biased, but I like it!

jgragg - wtf indeed. I dunno, that's why I'm asking for opinions. I'll post some pics of the substrate material (not literally Growstone by name, but I strongly suspect it's the same stuff, just a different size grade and marketed by a different wholesaler), substrate, ailing plants.

Where did borosilicate glass come up? Or is that the only kind that can be recycled into such a product? I'm not up on enough chemistry for that. I used a pH probe on the substrate...didn't budge from 6.5, so either it's slightly acidic or the probe can't read it properly since it's much more porous than soil. It's ABG + calcined clay bits, so since it's promoted as a mainstream substrate, I gotta think it's not an issue.

I'd be relieved to learn the stuff died from drought - that's way easier to fix. When I pick up the substrate, though - still damp enough to stick to the skin without dusting off, and that's now, when I haven't filled the drainage layer in weeks and the only water input is my 2-3 x daily hand misting. I'm not heavy-handed with hit, I don't think. Perhaps I'm too used to soil gardening and judging terrarium substrate moisture levels is something I need to adjust to.

When I fertilize once or twice a month (perhaps more is needed, granted) with orchid/tilly stuff, which are complete and have micronutrients, the Ficus, Episcia, and a few others do not notably green-up. The Begonia vank. and a couple of Peperomias do. I haven't tried foliar-feeding the Ficus but I do make sure I squirt some of that fert. on its in-ground roots. Maybe the epiphyte fert. is too weak? Maybe the pH really is off and therefore not conducive to nutrient availability? Dunno.

I'm happy to be wrong on my assumptions of what's wrong, because it probably means an easier solution to the problem - though I'm back to square one in trying to figure out what that is. I've been in ornamental horticulture for 22 years, but that's with mostly temperate-outdoor, in-ground plants. Tropicals - especially those more touchy about environmental conditions - in an enclosed environment and a mostly-closed system is a bit of a learning curve. Despite having a growing collection of houseplants (including the aforementioned orchids and tillandsia) for most of that time, I still have a lot to learn. Lots of reading and video-watching; some experimenting, and some bumps along the way.

pics - some chlorosis and what's left of the Selag. (looks brighter in the pic than it is in person); drainage layer stuff (from NEHerp, I think) leftover in bag and what I think is the same stuff but larger from Josh's Frogs; layer in tank...visibly dry, at least; substrate


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Here's some useful info on the drainage layer material: https://hydrobuilder.com/learn/media-tips/

I don't know anything about J's Frogs but I sense a growing unease here about the balance they take between business on the one hand, and animal welfare & effective husbandry on the other. Meh, could just be me though, I could be wrong.

My *guess* is, you've got a remodel ahead of you, because you've got a design fail, because the material properties of your "drainage layer" have been misrepresented and/or not really understood. I think you need an air gap (_a wick-break_) between the glass and your organic substrate. Or, just chuck the glass and use Matala or egg crate on legs. Or, use Matala or egg crate, and keep the glass but mix it into an "ABG-ish" substrate. Just read that article I linked before putting the glass back into service.

I freely advise that I could be wrong here. But having played with that stuff some in the past, it's great for some uses and awful for others. You just have to understand its properties and behavior, and match the tool to the job. I found it best in planting mixes and situations where I discard my drain water, as it tends to lead to brown algae growth in recirc systems.

Good luck!


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Ahhh...the stop-start-stop-start saga of setting-up or adjusting this terrarium continues.

Anyway, I'm going with switching to black Matala for this one, because the more I read about it and about folks using it, the more it sounded like the thing to try. (I do have some spare egg crate, but want to keep that for other builds/uses for now.) I was debating back and forth about using one piece of Matala in depth or two; visualizing it outside the tank, one seems a bit low but two seems too high for the room left to add substrate before it reaches the front Exo vents (and is just visually too high). I realize I could layer-on a sheet of egg crate on top or keep some of that recycled-glass (or the LECA I have) as a base layer to tweak the overall depth a bit, but was wondering if that's necessary.

Does anyone know or think one layer of Matala is sufficient? I was perusing old threads but couldn't really get a sense of what was commonly used. Perhaps for my purposes (no misting system), one layer will be ok?


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

There was some good substrate discussion recently in this thread: 
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/358208-what-if-i-dont-have-drainage-hole.html

And some of the answers I got here might be useful to you also:
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/p...-false-bottom-leca-vs-egg-crate-platform.html

I am not personally experienced yet (still working on my first build) but, your substrate doesn't seem to be extremely wet from what you described - just moist. Also you're having chlorosis issues on epiphytes if I saw that right - like the creeping fig which should be able to grow okay off basically just the background from my understanding. Is there any chance of any other toxins in the tank? What method did you use to build the background?


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Thank you for the links dwllama.
I used black expanding pond foam for the background (in case I didn't sufficiently cover Great Stuff) and covered it (after curing and carving) with black silicone and NEHerp's "Custom Vivarium Background Texture Mix." The chlorosis was on terrestrials, though the one exception is the _Ficus ruginervia_ (I think that's the species) that's "planted" in the background in a net cup of ABG with a little extra long-fiber sphagnum. To be fair, though, I don't fertilize nearly as much as I probably should be, given that I have no animals in there providing consistent nutrients. I have another cutting of the same Ficus in a plastic pot of ABG among my houseplants under lights, and it too is looking chlorotic or at least N-deficient. (I'm not good about regularly fertilizing my houseplants either. 🙄) Interestingly, my _Ficus thunbergii_ (_F. pumila_ 'Quercifolia') is mostly chlorotic in the far half of the stems (furthest from the root system) and mostly fine in the near half. Maybe it's just that it's where the nutrients have essentially "run out" as the plant grew.
As far as toxins - not that I'm aware of. I only water/mist with distilled and when using fertilizer, the fert. has been mixed in a jug of tap water. I re-checked my water supplier's water quality report recently, and it's not as hard as I was afraid it was. (I think, based on reading-up on mineral levels from various forums online, such as orchid societies.) I'll attach the file report here, in case I'm wrong on that and someone has input. Our water is a blend from two local rivers, which is why the report contains both (one source's data listed after the other).


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Well, for what it's worth (time will tell how it works out!), here's the revamp. Old drainage layer material out, new in, and wood trimming in between. I'd honestly forgotten they touched the glass (it was originally going to be a wet-bottom design 'till the realization about difficult water features manifested) but I don't think they contributed measurably to any wicking issues. Either way, it's been six weeks and the substrate doesn't seem to be getting drier any faster, nor is the humidity level any different. I was hoping that, with a water layer in the drainage portion - low enough that there's plenty of air gap - I could bump-up the humidity by perhaps ten percentage points or so. Maybe there's enough settling on it when I mist two or three times a day that it just keeps it damp, though it's hard to imagine that's the only reason, especially since I presume the dry indoor air is sucking out any humidity it can through what little screen is uncovered in the hood. As before, it's not wet enough to wring water out of, but is damp enough that I haven't had to water anything planted in the ground at all since I re-planted them with the overhaul. I'm even reticent to fertilize so I don't keep anyone too soggy.

Sawing through the driftwood with a Swiss army knife saw was...fun.  Especially at these awkward angles. I didn't have anything powered and no larger saw would fit easily enough to make any progress. That was some DENSE wood.

New drainage layer is Matala filter media (black, the least-dense). Certainly not the cheapest option, but I read up on it (and read, and read) and it seemed like a decent option to try. May not be easy to tell from the photo, but the wood all terminates just above the filter media now and never touches water. Thankfully what few plants I had in the substrate seemed to survive transplanting well, as I kept them in a humidity chamber of sorts to hold them.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Such a cool build! I bet it’s hard for you to see past the issues at the moment, but you’ve done a beautiful job, especially with the wood arrangement creating those layered shelves.

My terrestrial area is always as wet as yours. I have my land at the same level as my aquatic section, separated by a curved piece of acrylic covered in Spyra, and water wicks over the acrylic into the soil, nothing I can do about it. Between that and my mist system, which is aimed away from the ground as much as possible, I never water the terrestrial plants. Some plants aren’t happy with the wet (Masdies), some are growing like crazy (ferns, begonias, a _Macodes petola,_ mini Sinningias). Yeah, I get some fungus, and I have moss growing on the leaves of a few plants, and I wouldn’t generally want to stick my nose way down there, but one year in my terrestrial section is dense. And for the unhappy Masdies, I’m trying them in pots of leca to give their roots more air and as a last resort setting the pots on the ground rather than burying them.

Here it is, pure chaos at the moment, with my cranky Masdevallia ‘Dragon Gem’ in the back and some random begonias that don’t really fit:









So anyway, if you find that the land area is still staying wet, there are ways to work with it. You’ll have to find the right plants and probably change out the substrate more frequently, but you can make it work. I’ll happily supply a plant list if that would help.

By the way, what’s the plant in your first set of pics with the dark leaves and the purple flowers, looks like a gesneriad? Because clearly I need more variety in here...


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Thank you *Harpspiel*! I go back-and-forth between trying to figure out how to work with it (the tall tank branches) and how I might just re-do it. The main con at this point is, I think, the difficulty in planting and grooming the far side of the branches - that is, the sides facing away from the door on the other side of the tank. I imagine if I just get the right plants in there that hug the branch better, that'll be easier to deal with; for now, it's getting wild and woolly and some of them are over-lit anyway.

As for the long tank, yeah, I was gravitating towards working with what I've got if the terrestrial moisture becomes an issue. I was looking into trying some emersed aquatics if this level of dampness was ok with them (since emersed would technically, as far as I can tell, entail actually still having their roots _in_ water). As someone else pointed out though, it makes sense that they, in habitat, would be marginal aquatics - that is, growing near water sources where the soil is consistently damp but not necessarily sopping wet. I have my eye on trying Bucephalandra (love the dark leaves of some cultivars, though I've read they may not stay that way when not submerged); maybe small Anubias; aquatic mosses. (Just added a bit of Christmas moss in tufts around the tank with this latest planting as an experiment.)

The plant in the first photo that's between a Begonia and some moss on the branch that's lying in front of the doors is indeed a gesneriad - it's a micro-mini Sinningia, the cultivar 'Lil' Georgie'. The color's slightly off in the picture; it's a purplish-lavender with some white on the petals. I've had it for awhile as a houseplant on a lit plant stand, where the tuber grew to mostly fill it's ~1.25" or so pot. It has since gone dormant (not sure why...maybe just a cyclical habit they have, unless it got stressed) but is now starting to show a teensy bit of re-foliation. I'm not too worried as the tuber top feels firm (it's just _barely_ covered with moss or substrate) and when potted they'd defoliate and re-foliate all the time. Most of the time because I'd want to trim off the spent flower stems now and then to clean them up and -pop!- the top growth would snap off. But, the cutting often roots when planted in sphagnum _and_ the tuber re-sprouts, so...win-win eventually. Anyway, it's been in the tank for nearly a year now. I try not to keep it too damp and the substrate in that log hollow isn't too thick. As with many things in this tank, it probably needs more fertilizer since there are no animals.

I'm waiting to try a _Macodes petola_ again someday. I had a _Macodes sanderiana_ (or so the tag said...not sure) but it has since gone into "terminal dormancy." (A fun phrase I like to borrow from a plantsman at an east-coast nursery that grows temperate perennials.) I hadn't planted it yet to first see if it was taking well to the light levels where I was thinking about planting it. I think the stem rotted or perhaps a snail or two got to it, or both - I know a few bush snails (my guess at ID) have made it in there and nibbled on some orchid parts and the odd shed leaf that lays on the substrate. I tweeze them out when they show themselves. Thankfully they're mostly staying out of trouble so far.

A plant list of your successes in damp substrate would be interesting to read, sure!


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I was gonna suggest Bucephalandra, so far I’ve only grown them aquatic but I’ve heard they do really well emersed as long as they’re wet.

Let’s see, doing well:
A mini Adiantum species, have not been able to identify it but the fronds are split into three main segments and it’s about 6” tall
_Sinningia muscicola - _it appears to have seeded itself all over the place
_Sinningia pusilla
Chirita tamiana
Ficus thunbergii/quercifolia
Begonia_ ‘Withlacoochee’ (too big for my space)
_Begonia glabra _(vining, also too big)
_Macodes petola
Masdevallia wendlandiana
Restrepia dodsonii
Marcgravia umbellata, _rooted in the ground but clambering up the background
A variety of _Sphagnum_
Some New England creeping vine that came in the Sphagnum and I stuck it in there to see what would happen. So far, so good, reminds me of Gaultheria but I doubt I’ll be able to identify it until it blooms.

Plants that like it wet:
_Utricularia graminifolia, _blooming at the moment
_Peperomia prostrata
Peperomia emarginella_

Unsure/too soon to tell:
_Elaphoglossum peltatum
Paphiopedilum thaianum _- roots were firm and growing last I checked but now it’s losing the lowest leaf
_Paphiopedilum_ ‘QF Mini’
_Solanum_ sp ‘Trailing’

Not doing well:
_Masdevallia_ ‘Dragon Gem’
_Masdevallia_ ‘Confetti’

Other people have said that Macodes will rot from being too wet, but mine just...doesn’t. I have some air movement from a fan tilted to aim directly at the terrestrial area, and I find the whole area perfect for rooting things, so maybe the air movement keeps things from rotting.

Once things warm up on my end, I could send you some cuttings to try out. If you’re interested, I’d love some ‘Lil’ Georgie’ in exchange.


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Thanks for the list! I also have _Sinningia muscicola_, but probably can't tell them apart from any 'Lil' Georgie' babies if I accidentally mixed any up when re-planting tubers. I had a bunch of wee tubers from that repot (and a second plant from one of the early decapitations of the first) and I think I put some in a temporary sphagnum propagation chamber (a clear plastic food clamshell) to grow on 'till I decided what to do with them and see how many survived. So while I'm happy to trade, I'm not sure I can tell which is which just yet, especially since you already have the species. I've never shipped plants before, but am happy to learn, and yeah, waiting for warmer weather is simplest.

The only _Adiantum _I have so far is a tiny-leaved maidenhair that I've seen listed as both _A. raddianum microphyllum_, or variety 'Micropinnulum', or 'Lace Lady'; they seem all the same to me from cursory observations. One is still in a pot in with my random houseplants on a plant stand, with a small population of mealybugs for company (the bane of my houseplants' existence), at least 'till I break out the big guns and dose it with systemic soon. The other, a volunteer in a _Ficus thunbergii_ pot, didn't survive the move into the terrarium. (It sulked for awhile as fronds slowly died off and no new ones grew or lasted very long.) Perhaps it was too wet, or perhaps it's roots were just ticked-off about about the transplanting. I have more volunteers coming in other locations, so I may try again. I have seen a couple itty-bitty ones on various blogs or websites that I'd love to try.

I have a _Chirita tamiana_ but haven't put it into a tank yet. I habitually under-water the poor thing, but while it may not look spectacular (it's gotten leggy), it's hanging in there.

I happen to have _Masdevallia wendlandiana_ too! It's in the long tank, mounted to driftwood. It's doing ok but the last and only time it budded for me (maybe a year ago?) the buds blasted before they finished developing. Maybe acclimation stress, who knows. The tank is at room temp. but doesn't get a large temperature drop overnight, which may be keeping it from trying again so far. I think it's also under-fertilized and possibly over-lit, though hopefully as the new plantings grow in that'll help a bit. I tend to be of the mindset "flowers would be great but at least it's alive!" LOL

I'm trying two _Marcgravias _in the long tank, a genus which is new to me. In their pre-tank "quarantine" (otherwise known as "I haven't figured out where to put it yet") they were doing ok. One sp. Small Round form and one 'Azreal'.

My sphagnum has re-animated itself, at least in my propagation containers where the humidity stays high enough and even in the cork-tree tank in one or two spots. I put a couple tufts into the long tank to see what happens, fully aware that if it grows well I'll have to trim or remove it later so it doesn't smother things. For now, it's in places that won't cause any immediate problems if it takes off.

Can you share a pic of the vine you're trying to ID? I'm curious, and while not perfectly familiar with New England flora, I might recognize it as I'm in Maryland and there's a fair amount of overlap with what can grow here.

I'm good at killing jewel orchids sooner or later, but so far a simple _Ludisia discolor_ that I "adopted" from the office when we started teleworking in March is doing great, after an initial outbreak of thrips that I know it got from my other plants. (Note: one drenching spray of _spinosad _appeared to have worked well, which I was very pleased with because I thought it would take several.) It's sitting on a shelf (not a terrarium or any enclosure) with some other plants about 18" (ish) beneath a T5HO fixture that only has two tubes lit at the moment. I recently measured the PAR there in the neighborhood of 30-40. My guess is I over-water jewels, especially if I happen to get them into a humid enclosure as opposed to open-air growing. This one came in regular peat-based potting soil (with perlite). I may snap off a side stem later and put it into a tank.

_Utricularia graminifolia_ is on my radar for future experimenting, but I wasn't sure how wet (vs. evenly moist) they want the substrate.





Harpspiel said:


> I was gonna suggest Bucephalandra, so far I’ve only grown them aquatic but I’ve heard they do really well emersed as long as they’re wet.
> 
> Let’s see, doing well:
> A mini Adiantum species, have not been able to identify it but the fronds are split into three main segments and it’s about 6” tall
> ...


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

A major difference in our conditions is day vs night temp, I live in the high desert so we get a significant night temp drop and the tank is near a window. I would say around 8-10 degrees difference, not as much as some cloud forest orchids want but it seems to be enough. The coolest-growing plant that grows well for me is _Acianthera prolifera._

I think the Chirita would be happy in that tank. Utricularia probably needs to be wet rather than just moist, but you could try it in a particularly moist low spot. I have lots, I could try sending some in the spring. And I wouldn’t mind a mix of Sinningias if it was likely to have some ‘Lil’ Georgie’. For some reason I can’t find mini Sinningia varieties, I’d love one of the hot pink ones.

Here’s my mysterious bog plant, it’s tiny and vining with woody stems, and the leaf tips are sometimes red. A lot of it is just twining in with the Utricularia and mosses:


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Hmm...well, I take it back, I don't recognize it, sorry!  
All I have in Sinningia are the 'Lil' Georgie' and muscicola; had a 'Freckles' at one point but pretty sure I killed it. I too would like some color variety but as far as I know the micro-minis only come in purples and white. I think the mini or even compact categories hold some of the pinks/magentas.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Someone at some point made a hot pink micro mini, and I want it!









Sinningia "SimSim Salaviem"


micro miniature Sinningia "SimSim Salaviem" ( Alex Mayer, Ukraine ) Hello my friends, let me introduce one of the best mini sinningia...




crazybotanist.blogspot.com


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Harpspiel said:


> Someone at some point made a hot pink micro mini, and I want it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooooh, that IS neat, cool.


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Here's a status update for anyone who is curious or perhaps reading this thread in the future...

The filter mat is working as intended as best as I can tell, in the sense that I don't see how it will be wicking anything measurable and should be inert, though my substrate is _still _evenly moist/damp to the point where I never seem to have to water anything planted at ground level and don't keep any water in the drainage layer, though I do wonder if it would help the tank maintain humidity. (A substrate that isn't drying out makes deciding how often to fertilize, given I'm using a liquid-based solution, tricky.) Granted, as Harpspiel points out, this may just be how it is with this tank and I'll just have to roll with it until I find the plants that are tolerant enough. Nonetheless, I find it hard to understand why it's not drying out, and would be reassuring to figure this out, if possible, so I don't make the same mistake in a future setup. I don't mist that heavily - mostly just to try to moisten the background, the driftwood surfaces, and keep the humidity up; almost nothing drips onto the substrate and what little might isn't enough to wet something that much. The humidity levels, in as much as the hygrometer can be trusted, are never enough to fog the glass or even keep droplets on the glass for very long; daytime readings still stay in the upper 50s to 60-some percent or so. In either case, as far as the plants go, it's an odd mix of apparent successes, stall-outs, and possible failures so far with the plantings in the ground.

Most _Peperomia _aren't very happy. I realize in general that this group doesn't like to stay damp - at least when potted - but I was trying them in the hopes that this issue was a temporary one. They may have to be relocated to the background planter pockets or into log recesses I lay over the substrate to be successful long-term.

I'm finally seeing some _Selaginella _that isn't D.O.A. not long after I try it in there; it's the golden _kraussiana _(I think; damn things are rarely labeled) that looks like it's not only not dying back in protest but may be slowly spreading, at least in one patch. A clump of the type often sold as 'Frosty' (is that a _kraussiana _as well?) also seems to be settling-in without protest in one corner. That said, the _S. erythropus_ isn't thrilled and most of the old growth is dying away while a few little tiny pieces are re-sprouting from whatever roots/rhizophores survived...to be fair, that plant came from one that was grown in rockwool, presumably emersed, so perhaps there's that additional adjustment happening...still. What pieces of _S. uncinata_ I tried died off, some of which weirdly deteriorated into lacy tissue that was nothing but the edges of the leaves. Given the look and the fact that I have seen the odd bush snail <ugh> I suspect snail babies, but I cannot for the life of me find any or even adult snails near those plant pieces; I guess they might be hiding by day under the substrate surface or on the underside of nearby driftwood, though the few times I've checked by flashlight I still didn't see any. The rest of the bare-root _S. uncinata_ batch I'd gotten are safely doing pretty well in nearly-sealed clear plastic food clamshell containers just outside my plant stand in light levels I would have thought were too dim. We live and learn.

An _Elaphoglossum peltatum_ clump (from a 1.5" or so pot originally) is just sitting there...not dying back except for the occasional shed leaf, but not growing or spreading either.

A _Begonia minutifolia_ was doing well after transplanting, then reddened markedly at the tip growth (which I attributed to light levels, though they're unchanged this whole time), and is now melting (?) by having foliage start to shrivel and die off on one side. It does not touch glass, though it is in a corner. I do have a fan in the tank, but maybe it needs to be re-directed or maybe I need to add a second. Roots of this plant are mostly in sphagnum (as it came) but it does have easy access to the ABG-ish substrate beneath/around it. A _Begonia hoehneana_ is probably over-lit (my perpetual problem with low-light plants as it's hard for me to grasp just how little light they want) but also might be too damp...hard to tell the two symptoms of leaf color apart since it's more amber than chocolatey brown-green like it should be. Here too, maybe fertilizer is part of the answer; or maybe relocation to a drier planting pocket (though those are in brighter areas, alas).

_Triolena sp. _Ecuador also started out ok and is now iffy. The two I have are from the same vendor. The greener one actually opened one flower and is now declining and half-wilted looking; the redder one looks better and its leaves seem more turgid. These too came in pure sphag. which I loosened but largely kept for fear of tearing away too many good roots (they looked in great condition when transplanting) and, like the Begonia, are surrounded by the substrate. They're on different sides of the tank, but at about the same light levels.

_Pilea glauca_ cuttings are thinking life over, deciding whether to grow or sulk into oblivion. A _Pilea peperomioides_ is doing ok next to its companion the sorta-frosty _Selaginella_.

Two _Marcgravia _transplants are also taking their time to decide if they want to grow, die, or just sulk. The Small Round is sloooowly exploring a piece of driftwood I planted it next to; the Azreal is in two places and neither is making much progress either, one at the foot of driftwood and the other in a bit of substrate actually in a pocket of a piece of driftwood. All have lost a few older leaves. Both were bare-root when I got them and were doing ok in mostly-sealed containers with sphag. to root in. Perhaps I'm not being patient enough and they'll catch up eventually.

_Ficus pumila_ 'Quercifolia' / _Ficus thunbergii_ is still having the same issues as before, where the basal growth at the planting site is alright but not going crazy, and the growth that originally worked its way up the background and more than halfway across the tank is still gradually losing leaves and exhibiting definite chlorosis, to the point where most of those stems are denuded. I would have thought that roots too badly damaged by rot or something from the prior situation would have either finished dying or recuperated by now, given how vigorous this plant is for other folks. I'm going to try light foliar feeding and be more attentive to fertilizing its base to see if that helps stimulate new growth. Hell, I may even try some KelpMax solution to see if that jump-starts things in either direction just to figure out what its inclination is. It'll be my version of poking it with a stick.

Philodendron 'Green Dwarf' (who knows what it really is...that's what the label said) is doing fine, but it was doing fine before too and just slowly plods along as a self-heading clump.

Anyway, the filter media is nice enough to use, albeit not inexpensive compared to other options, that I'd be happy to try it going forward in future builds. I do have a couple leftover pieces to play with from cutting it down to size. Tip, for anyone who may have to do this after the background is set up: tilting the full panel into place was an impossibility, so I had to cut it again into fourths and put each piece in individually, wedging them together (but not too tight so they don't put too much pressure on the glass). Otherwise, starting off with installing this prior to hardscape, I imagine it would fit in one piece fairly easily.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

_Elaphoglossum peltatum_ is *extremely* slow in my experience, like it took almost a year before I saw growth. Maybe it just sulks for a long time after being moved.

I have no idea what’s up with your tank. Is it remotely possible that something, a piece of wood or some part of the background, is wicking water up from the drainage layer? Have you tried taking all the substrate out, drying it, and putting it back in?


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## Chlorophile (Jun 29, 2017)

Harpspiel said:


> _Elaphoglossum peltatum_ is *extremely* slow in my experience, like it took almost a year before I saw growth. Maybe it just sulks for a long time after being moved.
> 
> I have no idea what’s up with your tank. Is it remotely possible that something, a piece of wood or some part of the background, is wicking water up from the drainage layer? Have you tried taking all the substrate out, drying it, and putting it back in?


Good to know re: _Elaphoglossum peltatum_. At this point, I'm happy that it's not dead, so I'll take it as a win. I've heard they love tree fern (maybe the S.Am. over the NZ, but it may not matter), so one day I hope to try some on a piece of that. Maybe it's a rhizome depth issue...dunno.

Yeah, who knows. LOL. Maybe wicking happened before I swapped drainage layer materials (GrowStone to Matala black) because I re-discovered in the process that I did have wood touching the base of the tank, slightly, but it isn't any longer (had to cut it to get the Matala sheet in there). Plus, the wood was damned hard to cut with the tools I had on hand; really dense and not waterlogged or mushy at all, even at the surface. So...certainly a possibility, but not currently as the wood pieces end above the Matala and I never have enough water down there to reach the mat's surface. (The most it's been is half-high, and even then, that was months ago and I've let it dry down since since I don't think it boosted humidity measurably. I realize some folks suggest just using the drainage layer as literally that - only to catch and retain excess drained moisture - versus deliberately filling it for humidity or other reasons when you don't have any emersed aquatics in a low point in the terrain.)

I sort of allowed the substrate to dry, by virtue of its removal as I stripped the drainage layer, cleaned the glass, sawed the wood, and cut the Matala to size and then that piece into fourths to get it to fit in there. The few plants in the terrestrial layer at the time were moved to a humidity chamber (just a tub with a clear lid on it) to keep them alive since they were basically bare-rooted; the substrate was in its own holding tub. So, it wasn't turned or spread out to dry, but it was out of the tank for a day or two and at least presumably got drier in the meantime since I use central air.


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