# Ok the classic substrate debate...



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok I know this has been gone over again and again, but I've been thinking about changing so I thought I would bring it up yet again.

I think most people use some type of drainage layer either gravel or leca, and Im not sure bottom layer matters too much just as long as the top layer does not get saturated

My big question is the top layer:

Right now I use sphagnum on top of leca, but Im thinking about moving to a dirt mix on top of leca. My reasoning for thinking about this is how well the 2 tanks I have with dirt hold up, they have been going for almost 4 years with little to no maint. Now I do have some with sphagnum that have been going for almost as long, but Im leaning towards they need redone. One concern I have with dirt is with it washing away with misting. The current tanks I have dirt in do not have automated misting so they get misted a little less.

The options:
- leca with small aquarium gravel on top
- leca with sphagnum on top
- leca with dirt mix on top

Thoughts? other options?


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I dont get the craze for leca.Its expensive for a substrate and doesn't do anything more than gravel does.Someone pls tell me why leca?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

its light.... try moving 10-20-30-40 tanks with gravel in them.

My one tank have over 100lbs of gravel in it. Its not safe to move at all. If I had used leca it would be a one man job.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm all for leca and dirt, with a fiberglass screen in between to keep the dirt from washing into the leca.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Jordan B said:


> I'm all for leca and dirt, with a fiberglass screen in between to keep the dirt from washing into the leca.


+1

I would like to add that a layer of spagnum on top of this helps some plants out, and may boost sprintail and other invert growth...just my experience.
The plants I am refering to would be salaginella (sp?) and pillow moss.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Jordan, 

Ya that is exactly what I did on my older tanks.


Dancing,

Well pillow moss does well over just gravel, but I've never seen it last for more than about a year. I'm currently a fan of ricca but I need to learn to grow it.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

couldn't styrofoam peanuts work the same as leca?

Anyways,My prefered substrate stack wood be gravel(leca),weed block which I like much better than fiberglass screen,sand ,charcoal,cypress mulch, and topped with a mix of coco bedding, spagum, cypress, and leaf litter.
In my next tank I might try a clay soil with mulch and spagnum after seeing bbrock's setup.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I stay away from sand as I have heard bad things about it.

My spoil mix is basically coco bedding, peat moss, fir bark, and a little charcoal.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> Dancing,
> 
> Well pillow moss does well over just gravel, but I've never seen it last for more than about a year. I'm currently a fan of ricca but I need to learn to grow it.


What I said about pillow moss is just what someone else told me.
Personally, I've never had it live for more than a couple months on the ground level...I've noticed it grows better on a cork/gs/coco background.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I had it last for well over a year on the ground over gravel but then the plants grew in and killed it off.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I went to a garden supply place recently for reasons besides dartfrogs and noticed the bags of mulch. It is apparently just shredded fir bark...didn't see any pesticides listed in the ingredients. 

The only thing I could think of would be if it would be possible for any little disease organisms to be riding along in this mulch. Most people tend to be concerned and sterilize everything they pick up off the ground before putting it in the viv and all this is is someone else picking it up(in a rather unceremonial fashion and no doubt all kinds of "other stuff" goes in), and then shredding it to bits and packing it for you. I doubt they sterilize or dry it.

Never seen cypress mulch. Is that expensive?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Cypress mulch is cheap, that's why they sell it as mulch...

'Round these parts they even sell it at gas stations...like 2 huge bags for $3!


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Wow! :shock: I don't recall the price of the fir mulch but I'm betting it was around 8 bucks a bag(think 2-3 cubic feet).


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## glowfrog (May 3, 2006)

froggerboy said:


> couldn't styrofoam peanuts work the same as leca?


I was wondering about something like this also. I am setting up a 40 breeder tank, and I know for a fact I am moving in about 8 months, so I wanted to try and make this tank as light as possible, since it's really heavy empty, and I don't want to make it completely impossible to move. Anyone have any suggestions?




~Steph


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Styrofoam floats!


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Just a guess, but I don't think springtails would like stryrofoam very well either...at least compared to LECA.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Grassypeak said:


> Styrofoam floats!


Maybe not with weedliner or plastic eggcrate on top of it?


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Wouldn't the weed block limit the amount of spring tails in the styrofoam?I think they would be much happier in the top layer.I dont think the stryro foam would float after all of the other layers(gravel,mulch,coco bedding, leaf litter) were added.

Anyone have comments about clay as a substrate?


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

I wonder if bio-balls used for biological filter in fish tanks would be a good drainage layer. Lots of surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow, light weight, water will flow easily past it-unlike small gravel.
Im gonna incorporate some in my next tank- you wait and see!

Frank


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Styrofoam floats really well. I wouldn’t bother with the peanuts. You could use insulation board and glue it down, I think the floating peanuts would mess things up if the water got too high. The BioBalls should work but those things are too expensive to use unless you have them hanging around.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

after seeing a fellow frogger experimenting with styrofoam peanuts as a substrate layer I began experimenting with it several months ago on a few of my smaller tanks. I have to say, it works pretty slick. Nice and light, plenty of space for the springs to hide and thrive, plenty of space for water to "fill-in" before needing drainage and no floating issues at all with as little as 3/4" of substrate covering (and in some cases, no screen seperation layer either).

I'm not suggesting it's the drainage layer solution of the future, but I do think it certainly merits more experimentation. So far the only downside I've seen is that I wouldn't care for the peanuts to be visible in a display type set-up, but a little silicone can always hide that.

I say give the peanuts a try...


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Live and learn


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Grassypeak said:


> Live and learn


Sorry Chris, didn't mean to contradict you there... but I have had some success with it. I find it especially useful in my QT and grow-out tank because clean-up is a snap and I can rinse and reuse or rinse and recycle the peanuts.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

No worries. It’s good for professional know it alls, like my self, to be corrected once in a while :wink: . I felt pretty sure that the peanuts would float the substrate of even worse float up through the substrate. It certainly sounds as though it would be a light choice.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

froggerboy said:


> Anyone have comments about clay as a substrate?


clay wont work, it will just turn into a wet muddy mess.


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

I can vouch for styrofoam pellets as well. However I have my own substrate mix which seems to last much longer than cypress mulch or coco coir, as far as nutrient value and soil compaction. I have a 20G that has been running in excess of 6 years with excellent to plant growth to the point where it requires a good trimming every couple of months, and no soil amendments have ever been made. I also use this in my current tanks as well. The mix is roughly 50% grade A peat 40% packaged organic compost, 5% my own compost from table scraps, leaf litter, ect., 5% sand. the packaged compost contains cow manure, worm castings, chicken manure, bat guano and fir bark among other things and can be found at most outdoor stores. This mix is fairly light, stays moist, and drains well. 

Danny


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

MJ said:


> froggerboy said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone have comments about clay as a substrate?
> ...


Not what I saw.It grew plants amazingly well too. you do need a bottom substrate for it to avoid anerobic perblems.
What about flourite.I know I've asked this severval times before but does the extra iron in it effect tads?


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

Grassypeak said:


> The BioBalls should work but those things are too expensive to use unless you have them hanging around.


Not sure how far 500 1 inch balls would go but they seem cheaper than leca 
New-Black-Coralife-Bio-Balls

link edit: kyle1745


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Leca is not too bad... I think I get large bags for $21 each. Granted other things are cheaper.

My big debate is with the top layer, sphagnum, dirt, or gravel. I see positives and negatives to both.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I am for soil because there it can house more microorganisms to break down feces and is more natural, somewhat like a "live sand bed" for reef tanks.


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## PickingRice484 (Sep 21, 2005)

for my bottoms i use 
BIO BALLS..they are lite and easy to work with...moreso than leca...

i also use perlite as a layer...Thats so easy to work with and mold to you liking..i like it.

thats my 2 cents 8)


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

I run a layer of sphagnum on top of tree fern panels and then plant my live moss on top of that. The drainage is great and I haven't had an problems with any of it.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I read this article about 5 years ago, and decided to use a substrate similar to this mix for my terraria, as I wanted to grow both epiphytes and terrestrials. http://ladyslipper.com/coco3.htm I have been using a similar mix ever since that point in time. I just use coco husk chips and horticultural charcoal over a false bottom. So far, it has worked well for me. My first terrarium is now 5 years running, and just now needs to be re-done. The Paph that is planted in the media is still doing well.

I think substrates are a largely personal choice, and most will work well depending upon what types of plants you want to grow.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I guess I have just read that the good bacteria and etc can grow much better in dirt than on others. I also see that my 2 tanks made with jungle mix are really holding up very well as some of my moss ones should be redone. Honestly I wish I could buy 50lb bags of jungle mix. Its a great combo of things and keeps things simple.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

WOW just found this and its a great price I think, not to mention with our DB discount: http://www.herpsupplies.com/product.cfm?id=SCLRP216


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

Does/Has anyone ever used a layer of charcoal between the inorganic, bottom layer and the organic top layer? I am curious as I picked some bags of horticulture charcoal when a local garden center closed down. I assume it would provide a home for bacteria and mircofauna, while soaking up ammonia and other toxins.

Danny


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have added charcoal to my soil mixes but have not used it as a separate layer. I've heard that if things are drained right it is not needed.


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2006)

I have a bottom layer of gravel topped with soil (loam and whatnot that I collected from local forests).


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## Tom V (Jan 4, 2006)

currently I have two different methods employed...I have a 10 vert with leca, as well as 10 and 15 verts with bio-balls...i like both materials, but i tend to go with the bio balls (not super-expensive for the amount i need, plus i can get them even cheaper at work with a discount), and the thing i like most about them compared to leca is that they take up less volume and allow for more water to accumulate in the bottom. this obviously means the water rises more slowly and i need to drain my tanks a lot less often. 

on top of the drainage layer i've been using coco bedding in my thumbnail tanks for now. i dont particularly like it for aesthetic and other reasons, but since there isnt a lot of ground area in those vivs and the frogs seldom come into contact with it, it hasnt been a problem...in my terrestrial tanks i use a base of bio balls, and sphagnum as the ground cover. which i'll probably use exclusively in my breeding tanks in the future.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Greenstar said:


> Does/Has anyone ever used a layer of charcoal between the inorganic, bottom layer and the organic top layer? I am curious as I picked some bags of horticulture charcoal when a local garden center closed down. I assume it would provide a home for bacteria and mircofauna, while soaking up ammonia and other toxins.
> 
> Danny


I always add a layer aof charcoal over my gravel.I think I developed this habit from potting so many house plants.

Is it wrong to always want to do things the hard way.If I had a choice of premix soil and doing the identical mix all from scatch for twice the cost and labor, I would choose the latter. I think my parents dropped me on my head one too many times.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

kyle1745 said:


> My big debate is with the top layer, sphagnum, dirt, or gravel. I see positives and negatives to both.


Then incorporate both? I use both in seperate layers to filter particles and keep them from washing down into the drainage layer. 

What problems have you had? 

I would think that if you have problems with one or the other used alone, those problems could be counteracted with the other?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have not had any major issues other than the sphagnum looks like crap after about a year or so. The dirt looks the same 4-5 years later.

Im also wondering how true the comments are about the bacteria doing better in dirt.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2006)

Regarding soil:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... light=soil

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... light=soil (in particular Brent's post at bottom of 2nd page)

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... light=soil

I would also recommend sifting through the Frognet archives...


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Oh ya i've read a good deal on the subject, and there are a number of opinions. I've just been pondering more soil use...


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Kyle, I don't think charcoal is the best because after charcoal absorbs smells/chemicals/ etc., it can rerelease it back into the environment. It only takes a few weeks before that happens.

Instead, just attach a filter cartridge to your water feature and change the charcoal periodically.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Im thinking dirt may help break down the waste a bit better than sphagnum. Im going to try a couple of tanks and see, but my largest concern is with keeping it out of the leca. Someone mentioned something to use other than window screen. I need to track that post down.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2006)

kyle1745 said:


> Im thinking dirt may help break down the waste a bit better than sphagnum. Im going to try a couple of tanks and see, but my largest concern is with keeping it out of the leca. Someone mentioned something to use other than window screen. I need to track that post down.


Weed block?


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## Jeffey_Kasparek (Jan 21, 2005)

Kyle, 

Maybe you could also try needle mesh (they sell it at fabric stores and craft stores). AZDR recommended it to me and it works really well, particularly if you have to later break down tanks. I'ved liked using the sphagnum moss personally because it greens up really well for me. I just use leca and sphagnum moss but keep it under really bright lighting (t-5's from hydroponic stores) and it greens up in about a month or two. Soil I haven't had as much fun with. I thought soil mixtures of cocofiber and milled sphagnum would look cool (and really helped the pillow moss establish itself) but they became problematic when I wanted to breakdown setups. Not to mention I had a horrible time with egg eating worms and the like when using soil mixtures over sphagnum. On the other hand, I was able to get springtails growing in there pretty well. Just a few thoughts, good luck and hope you find what works best.

- Jeff


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Kyle,
You thinking of polyethylene shade cloth? 

Use a layer of fine over course sand on top of the substrate divider you choose. It packs down flat & tight and creates a nearly impenatrable barrier for the soil to rest on. Just don't 'tear' out plants, cut them out of the soil instead.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

I'm anxious to see what people continue to say about this subject, as this is a point of importance in the new viv I'm building.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, I've used air conditioner filters (polyurethane foam) with good success. It is easy to cut and mold over the leca, and seems to hold up well over time. 

Assembling viv:










14 months later--this side looks pretty awful lit up like this, but happily it's always shaded by the nearby piano and looks dark in real life! The soil/leca division is still holding well: 










I did slope it down in front and use black aquarium gravel to hide the leca:










This stuff is cheap and found in discount Mall-Wart type places as well as home stores, but maybe only during AC season. Can no doubt be found online as well. This pkg cost $3.89:










I rinse it well in water and wring it out before use, which may not be necessary. My son has also had good luck with it.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Man those are all good ideas... On the weed block how is it at letting the water through? 

Window screen should work ok, just wonder if it is fine enough for soil.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Coconut fiber mat works very well at dividing the leca and soil.
I think by the time it broke down enough to let the soil thorough, the soil would be so grown in with roots that it wouldn't be an issue anyway.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

The weed block is just a tight weaved fabric that allows for drainage but prevents weeds by choking the stalks being formed.

I like to use pond liner. My drainage hole is surrounded by an egg crate structure covered in pond liner and I never have to worry about blockage.Sand put on top of this adds to the filtering of dirt.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I bought some black fiberglass windowscreen from HD to use for this however it seems to have a chemical smell to it. Am I just being paranoid or maybe it needs to be rinsed well before use?


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Dendrobait said:


> Am I just being paranoid


Pretty much. But at least you considered that, very observant. I think they coat it in some type of resin which you may be smelling or maybe it absorbed the odor from something near by. Depends on what exactly you're smelling.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2006)

Having experimented with most common drainage substrates as well as some radical ones, I stopped using them. All my tanks now have a false bottom. I start out with plastic eggcrate suspended 2" off the bottom by a few pieces of PVC pipe. I cover this with window screen. Then I put a layer of Home Depot Aquatic Plant soil ( really laterite gravel) to form a barrior for the soil. 
Add your soil layed, preferably really well draining and your done. You can take a small piece of plastic pipe and glue it in the corner so that it almost touches the bottom, that way you can syphon any water out that builds up. 
Works perfectly and is sooo much lighter. I can pick up my entire 75g display with another person if I have to move it.


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

Has anyone added worm castings to their mix. I am finishing 2-60 gallon cubes and I am going to mix some regular potting soil, coir, and worm castings if someone can promise me their is no reason not to. I just want the benefit of things getting proper micronutes. I know, frog poop, and blah blah, but I have a 10 lb bag of worm castings that I want to use on something!!!


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

If you made it, know what was put in it and are confident it is safe, fine.

10 lbs, that's a bit much, you can over supp/fert....


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

No, I didn't make it. It is from an organic worm farm. I just meant I had that much, I didn't mean I was going to mix it all in. Also, it is very very hard to overdo worm castings!!! They are one of the greatest things for plants.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Just make sure it's from a clean source and not manure.


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