# Poison Dart Frogs-Need Help-Legaility Issues



## Mick02 (Mar 5, 2013)

Hello,
I apologize for not introducing myself first, but I'm in need of some assistance and I believe y'all can help.

To summarize the problem I have a local vet in my area who's decided to make it his personal agenda/crusade to rid my county of some, or all, non-indigenous reptiles.

Actually, he's already managed to get the ordinance passed to ban all venomous and ALL boas and pythons. A few of us found out, after the fact, and began to try and get this ordinance reversed. A few of the problems we're facing is peoples' natural fear of all things reptilian, the fact that this vet isn't above exaggerating to achieve his goal and ultimately the fact that the ordinance is already on the books. Luckily the council members have been willing to listen to us, and we've been able to refute everything this guy has claimed. He's undaunted though (I honestly think this has become personal for him) and continues on his crusade.

My reason for coming to y'all today is in his latest speeches he's begun to shout the danger of animals like Poison Dart Frogs. I kid you not. According to him these things are more dangerous/toxic than even the most dangerous of snakes.

In a recent speech of his, which I attended, he mentioned the frogs again, and when I commented that they weren't dangerous in captivity because they didn't have access to the insects, which were their food in nature, allowing them to develop the toxin, he quickly responded with, "Oh they're importing the insects!!"

So here are the guy's claims:

1. They’re still dangerous in captivity.
2. Even though they don’t have their natural food source here, its being imported.
3. If they escape, they’ll kill someone.
4. If they escape, they’ll form a breeding colony and harm the local wildlife and be a danger to the general public.
5. If their natural food source isn’t available (to help them generate the toxin), then they’ll find a local equivalent.

In case you were wondering at this point, I live in Wilson County, TX (just a bit south of San Antonio).

What I need is information I can site...Websites, books or people...And if it has any kind of official tone to it, so much the better...This guy hasn't backed up one of his claims with any source...He just fires off his "facts" (such as importing of insects) and lets it scare the crud our of his audience.

Just to give you an idea of what we're dealing with. Here are a few other claims he's made:

1. Cobras are aggressive and have been known to kill entire families.
2. The way that they treat Cobra and Mamba bites in their native regions is to amputate the limb that has been bitten. If memory serves I do think he believes that's the only method of treatment.
3. If non-indigenous snakes were to escape, they would manage to survive, flourish down here and possibly even begin to breed.
4. The pythons in Florida are killing off the alligators.
5. A snake will try and kill someone by wrapping their throat and choking them out. Not by circumstance mind you, but by design...They're literally going for the throat.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Any help/info y'all can provide to help me refute this guy is appreciated. I don't keep these frogs (but I'd like to someday), and this won't be the sole basis for our rebuttals, but every bit of his bologna that we can discredit only helps our cause. The better the sources we can site, the more it helps us.

(PS. I've already contacted a few names in the PDF hobby, so this may look familiar to some of you, but I figured the more info I can get the better.)


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Try to identify and involve herp societies. If you don't have any local, try regional.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Unless you live in a tropical zone how does he conclude that darts could not only with stand the heat let alone lack of humidity?

As someone from Florida, it is just South Florida that has the biggest problem with pythons or boas. I never once saw them in the streams, rivers, and ponds I would fish at in Central Florida.

But to answer your questions talk to Ed as he has the most knowledge about the facts that are sourced.

Cobra's and Mamba's are very aggressive but to my knowledge wouldn't be able to survive, and I agree that their really isn't any reason to own one personally, but I also don't believe anyone has a right to infringe on my rights to own anything.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Do you have any exotic vets in your area or even distant surrounding areas? If so, I'd get them on board, asap. Here is a link to Ed's profile page. He hasn't been around the board lately but go ahead and send him a PM and also an email. He's very knowledgeable and a nice fella. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members/ed.html


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

I don't have anything to be able to help but I just wanted to tell you I face palmed so hard when I read this. I hope everything works out for you! Ignorance is a dangerous foe. Keep us posted!


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

This guys a joke. I am watching the video on the Wilson County News website and its making me want to give him a good punch to the nose.

D


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Find & download this study: (You will probably need to purchase a copy)

Toxicon. 1992 Aug ;30 (8):887-98
Variability in alkaloid profiles in neotropical poison frogs

If nothing else, it describes how quickly wild caught Dendrobatid frogs lose toxicity when taken from the wild. Also, it briefly touches on the_ inability to reproduce the Batrachotoxin in captivity_.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Throw this at him...

*Dendrobatids can NOT survive in Texas weather. They need at least 80% constant humidity.

*No one is importing the proper insects. The appeal of Dendrobatids is not the poison but the color.

*Colombia stopped exports back in the 90's so there is practically no chance of WC P. terribilis in the hobby.

*It is impossible for Dendrobatids to breed in Texas, your an idiot.

*Dendrobatids don't "find an equivalent" They can not consciously pick out the specific ants and mites that have alkaloids in them. They can not even use the alkaloids found in TX native ants because they did not co-evolve.

D


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

so i guess pretty soon on gator boys they will be going to texas to catch that poisonus imatator terrorizing the locals. 
this vet doesn't sound too knowledgeable.


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## Mick02 (Mar 5, 2013)

Hello and thank you for the replies.

To answer some of your questions/comments. We did get a vet who, to my understanding, is one of the few in the nation board certified to work on amphibians and reptiles to come and speak to the committee...Luckily, Dave and Tracy Barker also live just north of San Antonio and Dave was nice enough to come down, provide each council member with a copy of their latest book on ball pythons and speak on our behalf...As well as the vice president of the San Antonio herp club who's an expert with venomous. This vet isn't phased. He's continuing with his crusade...I'm not sure where he heard the term Poison Dart Frog, but man he's been throwing it around more than a bit of late.

For example, when I mentioned at his latest speech the Dave said statistically speaking is was more likely for someone to be killed by an elephant in Wilson county than a python/boa/non-indigenous venomous his reply was, "We've outlawed elephants in this county too!!"

Again, he's speaking to audiences, who are local and don't have much/any knowledge of reptiles...If we weren't over there trying to tell them that PDFs aren't poisonous in captivity, they'd believe him...Honestly, why shouldn't they? He's a vet, so they already think he's an animals expert...He's a local guy...one of the good old boys...and he's playing that to the hilt.

Most of us are outsiders who have moved into that county, and we're a severe minority, so although we have facts on our side, he has popularity on his side as well as peoples' phobias...

On the plus side, those who've listened, especially the council members, have been very receptive...But we can't rest easy...if he keeps coming up with "facts" we have to keep countering them.

Thank you for your help and support...BTW, what does Ed go by in here? I'll try and contact him.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Mick02 said:


> <snip>
> 
> Thank you for your help and support...BTW, what does Ed go by in here? I'll try and contact him.


He goes by Ed. I linked his profile above 

eta: here it is so you don't have to go hunting: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members/ed.html


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## Mick02 (Mar 5, 2013)

frogface said:


> He goes by Ed. I linked his profile above
> 
> eta: here it is so you don't have to go hunting: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members/ed.html


Thanks!! Sorry I missed it before...that's what I get for multitasking...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I sent Ed an email. Hopefully he'll stop by.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Mick02 said:


> Hello and thank you for the replies.
> 
> To answer some of your questions/comments. We did get a vet who, to my understanding, is one of the few in the nation board certified to work on amphibians and reptiles to come and speak to the committee...Luckily, Dave and Tracy Barker also live just north of San Antonio and Dave was nice enough to come down, provide each council member with a copy of their latest book on ball pythons and speak on our behalf...As well as the vice president of the San Antonio herp club who's an expert with venomous. This vet isn't phased. He's continuing with his crusade...I'm not sure where he heard the term Poison Dart Frog, but man he's been throwing it around more than a bit of late.
> 
> ...




Dave and Tracy Barker are an excellent couple of very long term Herpers and good people too. You could not have picked two better people in your quest for sanity. It sounds like the vet went to Sen. Bill Nelsons school of ignorance. I cannot beleive anybody on here did not suggest you contact USARK and PIJAC whose profession is standing up and protecting our rights. Was Dave and Tracy representing USARK or just as themselves? Keep us posted on how this plays out, good luck, Bill


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here is a vet in Arizona you might consider contacting. He's well known and well respected. Wright Bird & Exotic Pet House Calls | Distinctive veterinary care for unusual pets


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## Soldier17 (Mar 26, 2012)

I can't believe the guy was able to become a veterinarian being as stupid as he is. Ask him to back his claims up with evidence such as scientific journals that discuss the toxicity in captivity, He won't be able to.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Soldier17 said:


> I can't believe the guy was able to become a veterinarian being as stupid as he is. Ask him to back his claims up with evidence such as scientific journals that discuss the toxicity in captivity, He won't be able to.


If you pay attn. at the large snake bans they used studies done by he govt. for the govt. , using non peer reviewed studies. I have said it before froggers need to pay attn. because at some point we will be under the gun as well, and if froggers sit by idle and not assisting herpers don't be surprised if no one is there to help us, Bill


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Dendroguy said:


> This guys a joke. I am watching the video on the Wilson County News website and its making me want to give him a good punch to the nose.
> 
> D


Wilson County News - Section A: General News - Snake lovers ask county to reconsider recent ban

just in case others are curious like I was


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

billschwinn said:


> If you pay attn. at the large snake bans they used studies done by he govt. for the govt. , using non peer reviewed studies. I have said it before froggers need to pay attn. because at some point we will be under the gun as well, and if froggers sit by idle and not assisting herpers don't be surprised if no one is there to help us, Bill


Thank you Bill. I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. The snake ban you mention is not even on the two largest snakes, green anaconda and reticulated python, but rather the more commonly know large snakes. If we don't start stepping up now we will soon lose OUR rights.

Also message ZooKeeperDoug. He is in Texas and could probably assist.


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Just a couple of quick notes to set the story straight. 

Since that 1992 Daly paper that Mike posted the evidence has become overwhelming that dendrobatids sequester toxins from their diet and don't synthesize them de novo. Alkaloids are common in arthropods though, and arthropods are very common everywhere (they make up a huge portion of the total of earth's species). Ants (etc) here in the US, and the lone star state, have alkaloid toxins. 

There is a population of Dendrobates auratus in Hawaii (introduced to control another introduced species I believe). Despite being very far from their normal geographic range (Central America), they also have alkaloid toxins. So, you can bet your bottom dollar that if they are eating arthropods they will sequester those toxins. The 'poison arrow frogs' that have the scarier toxins (batrachotoxin and its analogues) are a few Phyllobates species. The rest of these frogs are not nearly as toxic. Btx is thought to be derived from dietary beetle sources-and is even seen in a genus of New Guinean birds (Pitohui). Should we outlaw birds?

So, some of the toxin information was a bit misleading, but more or less correct. The important thing is that populations are not going to be established in Texas!

This is a super long post, and I seem to have become 'the guy who spews nonsense about frog toxins.' Anyway, pm me if you have questions...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> If you pay attn. at the large snake bans they used studies done by he govt. for the govt. , using non peer reviewed studies. I have said it before froggers need to pay attn. because at some point we will be under the gun as well, and if froggers sit by idle and not assisting herpers don't be surprised if no one is there to help us, Bill


Yes, and the emerging data is showing that the predictions used by Reed and Rhoda to be incorrect and a gross over estimation.... See for example http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v..._sdt=0,31#search="invasive Python bivittatus" 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When dealing with issues like this idiot, you need facts that are supported in the literature and cannot use incorrect information... A number of things here are incorrect... see below. 



Dendroguy said:


> Throw this at him...
> 
> *Dendrobatids can NOT survive in Texas weather. They need at least 80% constant humidity.


This is totally incorrect....and isn't even close to the recommendations in the most comprehensive literature.. See for example Poison Frogs, Lotters et al.... where 60% as an acceptable humidity is documented..... 



Dendroguy said:


> *No one is importing the proper insects. The appeal of Dendrobatids is not the poison but the color.


Again, incorrect.... there are imports of the invertebrates as part of the testing to determine the arthropod source of the alkaloids. 



Dendroguy said:


> *Colombia stopped exports back in the 90's so there is practically no chance of WC P. terribilis in the hobby.


\ 

While terribilis have not been legally exported from Colombia as reported on CITES... it is clear that they have been smuggled out more than once (yellow, mint, orange...).. and this position ignores the fact that while captive bred frogs lack the alkaloids, this by no means can be taken to indicate that there are no other chemicals that can be an issue if you are stupid enough to put them into your mouth... See for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html#post150012 
Even common frogs like Xenopus (and even leopard frogs) have peptides that can ruin your day (or make you very unconfortable) if you stick an unhappy frog in your mouth... (example bradykinins..which are used for both antimicrobial and antipredator defense).... 



Dendroguy said:


> *It is impossible for Dendrobatids to breed in Texas, your an idiot.


Based on what evidence? Many Dendrobatids are well able to take advantage of disturbed habitat and are able to colonize suburban regions (which would enable them to take advantage of lawn watering or plant watering)... many have seasonal dry adaptations that permit them to survive extended periods of low humidity..... There are regions of Texas where Dendrobatids could become established.. areas on the Gulf Coast come to mind... for example Galveston, Texas... where temperatures range from 50 F to 90 F, and the humidity typically ranges from 59% to 92%... So to blanket claim it is impossible is a gross misstatement. 




Dendroguy said:


> *Dendrobatids don't "find an equivalent" They can not consciously pick out the specific ants and mites that have alkaloids in them. They can not even use the alkaloids found in TX native ants because they did not co-evolve.
> 
> D


Again, this in incorrect... This was adequately covered by Easternversant. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mick02 said:


> Hello,
> I apologize for not introducing myself first, but I'm in need of some assistance and I believe y'all can help.
> 
> To summarize the problem I have a local vet in my area who's decided to make it his personal agenda/crusade to rid my county of some, or all, non-indigenous reptiles.
> ...


Mick, 

Shoot me a e-mail using the e-mail link in my profile and I can discuss some of options for you. I can discuss my qualifications with you. 

Ed


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Sounds like this guy has some beef with herps, and he's out to try to punish hobbyists....

I mean, the fact is hat he's lying to the people in your county, and I think the best way to combat him is to catch him in his own lies. Like you said, he knows how to play to the crowd -- and although he might be able to employ scare tactics to the crowd, I don't think any crowd likes learning that they've been lied to and that they've been taken for fools....



Mick02 said:


> So here are the guy's claims:
> 
> 1. They’re still dangerous in captivity.
> 2. Even though they don’t have their natural food source here, its being imported.
> ...


1. This is a lie in which there is a ton of data on. If you want to refute this false claim, you can do a google scholar search on something like "dendrobates toxin captivity" and it will return loads of papers on the subject. You might not be able to access the actual papers, but you can print out the abstracts to show to the council members or whoever:
dendrobates toxin captivity - Google Scholar

2. It is harder to disprove something on which there is no data on. I guess on this point the most you could do is just question the validity of his claim. Ask things like "do you know what their natural food source even is?", "how do you know that food item makes them dangerous?", "what food is being 'imported' for them?", "can you provide information on any individuals/companies that are importing this supposed food source?". It's important to make him back up any claims that he makes. If he does not and tries to distract the crowd with another subject, say that you've brought papers to back up your claims, and call him out on his lying.

3. Again, I would make him try to back up his unsubstantiated claim, as there are no reports of anyone ever being killed by a dart frog. Here's one study I found looking at data from the CDC looking at 1943 persons that were fatally injured by animals between 1991 and 2001:
http://scark.org/docs/Animal Related Fatalities.pdf
There is not one death attributed to an amphibian. (maybe someone else on the board can find you a better list). Of course I think the vet's rebuttal would be something akin to "well, are we really willing to allow the first case to happen here??!?!?" 

4. I think this claim should be fairly easy to dismiss. Many of these frogs come from the Amazon jungle. The weather of your country is not similar to the weather in the Amazon, and here are some websites to back up your claim:
Manaus, Brazil Travel Weather Averages (Weatherbase)
World Weather Information Service - Manaus
If you need to, you can buy a cheap book online on the care of poison dart frogs, and it will state that you need consistent high humidity (like in the Amazon) for the frogs, or else they'll shrivel up like a raisin and die. I have this book and I'm pretty sure it explains the need for high humidity, and it definitely explains that the frogs lose their toxicity in captivity.
I found this nice presentation that someone did for the biome of your county, and it seems that you basically live in a desert/grassland, where humidity and rainfall are extremely low. So, it would be impossible for tropical frogs to survive there in the long term, much less set up a breeding colony.

5. At this point the answer is pretty much the same -- he needs to back up his claim with data or admit he's lying 

Hope some of that helps!


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

Mick02 said:


> Hello and thank you for the replies.
> 
> To answer some of your questions/comments. We did get a vet who, to my understanding, is one of the few in the nation board certified to work on amphibians and reptiles to come and speak to the committee...Luckily, Dave and Tracy Barker also live just north of San Antonio and Dave was nice enough to come down, provide each council member with a copy of their latest book on ball pythons and speak on our behalf...As well as the vice president of the San Antonio herp club who's an expert with venomous. This vet isn't phased. He's continuing with his crusade...I'm not sure where he heard the term Poison Dart Frog, but man he's been throwing it around more than a bit of late.
> 
> ...


His username is Ed 


And the only thing I have to say is wow some people are really stupid.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Okay, sooo I'm doing some more research on the climate of your region, and I found this information about the humidity:

Here's humidity information for San Antonio (which I'm assuming is more humid because of the extra plant life:
Average Weather For San Antonio, Texas, USA - WeatherSpark


> The relative humidity typically ranges from 38% (comfortable) to 91% (very humid) over the course of the year, rarely dropping below 17% (dry) and reaching as high as 100% (very humid).
> 
> The air is driest around August 11, at which time the relative humidity drops below 43% (comfortable) three days out of four; it is most humid around May 23, exceeding 88% (very humid) three days out of four.


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