# Fecals Done While You Wait @ IAD



## SickVoodoo (Oct 9, 2005)

Just trying to gage interest in getting fecals done by Dr. Frye at IAD at a discounted price. Instead of mailing fecals from your collection you could have them done while you wait and/or test new purchases on the spot.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Would you be giving the frogs laxitives to hurry up the process?

I think it's a cool idea.

I assume you'd have a vendor table to accompish this?

s


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## SickVoodoo (Oct 9, 2005)

No laxitives will be used. 
They are trying to see if anyone would be interested beffor they get a booth.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Depending on the discount - I may have a number of them done. Good idea.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Actually, a friend of mine just made an excellent point.

Will the Frye's be selling frogs at IAD?

If so - this is definitely a conflict of interest (doing fecals).

s


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## SickVoodoo (Oct 9, 2005)

They will not be selling frogs at IAD just the medical testing they offer.


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## 311_dart (May 20, 2006)

Scott, you can ask a Frye brother directly on dartden or frognet.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

I'd be interested, should be due for a checkup by then


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

we would be interested in getting some done. it would save on shipping!


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

Scott said:


> Actually, a friend of mine just made an excellent point.
> 
> Will the Frye's be selling frogs at IAD?
> 
> ...


hey scott,
sorry to be dim-witted, but could you please explain? i genuinely don't understand this statement. it kind of sounds like the implication is that dr. frye would lie about fecal results in order to sell his brother's frogs. surely that's not what you meant, right?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Has he asked the IAD committee first? Anything out of the ordinary has to be cleared by IAD with the hotel and the various insurers. 

Some of the demonstration workshops had to recieve special permission from the hotel or the insurer or both... As an hypothetical example the hotel hosts banquets in those rooms, and the hotel may decide that they do not want fecals being tested in those rooms.. (hypothetical but the IAD committee would need to get the hoops jumped through to make sure its okay). 
I would hate to see this also come up as an issue because there wasn't time to get a response from all of the parties involved... 

Ed


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

hey ed,
would it save the IAD organizers any hoop jumping if a vendor table was manned which sent clients to a private room where the samples would be handed in and tested?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Mack - the Frye Brothers claim to have "clean" frogs. I don't doubt their claims (seriously).

[edit: they test and treat as they see fit.]

Part of the result of offering fecals is that you're going to find "dirty" frogs.

I hadn't thought about some of the aspects Ed has. I actually like the idea of having easily done Fecals. But I also see some side effects that might be a bit ugly.

They're not selling frogs at IAD regardless so it really can't be construed as a conflict of interest. 

s


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## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

Just talked to a friend of mine.Even though the frye bro's are not selling frogs at IAD it is still a conflict of interest because they do sell them. Because IAD is a amphibian show there are also issues of slander and YES IAD could be held responsible. While the idea of low cost easy access fecals actually appeals to me I don't think IAD needs any more heat right now.



Sean


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## axolotl (Dec 31, 2006)

Is there not enough cocideration given to the facts, that we are dealing with medical doctors, and as so should be delt with as a little higher degree of confidence? Do you really think that they would say your, or any of their "competitions" frogs would have parasites in order to persuade you to purchase their animals? I would hope not.... I think that if they would "jump through hoops" in order to get the facilities to allow samples to be checked for species sustainability....(I wish that I could spell-check!!!)


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## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

A workshop on parasites common to the hobby would be awesome.

Ryan


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I think so as well.

s


verbal said:


> A workshop on parasites common to the hobby would be awesome.
> 
> Ryan


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## SickVoodoo (Oct 9, 2005)

As you know Rich has just moved to Chicago so he now has a lot more room to set up a true frog room. He is planning on holding back most of his frogs for the next few months in order to build his breading groups. So he isn’t planning on selling anything anytime soon. 

You would never buy a Dog or Cat without it having its shots or taking it in for a check up. I don’t see why frogs would be any different. A lot of the people in the reptile and amphibian trade don’t really pay attention to this part of the health of there animals but it should change. I understand where everyone is coming from about the conflict of interest for the sellers but I do believe Dr. Frye will do it in a professional manor and not start throwing swords.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Who really thinks that they wil be able to get fecals done on the frogs that they buy at IAD? In order for that to even be possible the seller would have to have frogs on their tables and have poop in the contaniers with them. While this will happen with some frogs, not all (and probably not many) will take a poop while in the sell cup, so they wouldn't be able to test those frogs anyways.


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## SickVoodoo (Oct 9, 2005)

I think you would be surprised how much they poop


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Yea Stace, do you even have frogs?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I have plenty of frogs and I am never surprised at how much they poop. But not every frog (or even most) is going to poop once in the sell cup. Sure, there will some that do, but not all.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

defaced said:


> Yea Stace, do you even have frogs?


Naah... but i am thinking of getting some one day.


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## SickVoodoo (Oct 9, 2005)

Just passing on a post from dart den.

Well guys , after talking to my brother and reading "conflict of interest" too
many time and the possiblity of my brother giving false information to sell
frogs I would not even have at the show and I don't plan on selling for quire
a bit (just settled into a space with three times the room for holdbacks) my
brother will not be attending or doing fecals at IAD this year. We may have
brought this up a bit late. Let's hope the kinks can get worked out for next
year.
I will be contacting Dave for info well in advance for this years MWFF. I have
afunny feeling that anyone confident in their collection's state of health
will not have any objections .

Rich
________


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## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

SickVoodoo said:


> As you know Rich has just moved to Chicago so he now has a lot more room to set up a true frog room. He is planning on holding back most of his frogs for the next few months in order to build his breading groups. So he isn’t planning on selling anything anytime soon.
> 
> You would never buy a Dog or Cat without it having its shots or taking it in for a check up. I don’t see why frogs would be any different. A lot of the people in the reptile and amphibian trade don’t really pay attention to this part of the health of there animals but it should change. I understand where everyone is coming from about the conflict of interest for the sellers but I do believe Dr. Frye will do it in a professional manor and not start throwing swords.



Actually i dont believe dr frye would ever do anything unethical and never said he would, however all you have to have is one of one sellers frogs come up positive and people start to talk and the seller then doesnt sell anything and lawsuits start flying(believe me this happens far more often than most people realize). This could in turn cause alot of bad publicity for IAD and poof no more IAD.

The other problem is that fecals are relatively subjective and one vets reading will be totally different from another vets.


Sean


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

For the record: An offer was made to have Dr Frye host a workshop on the subject. They could also sell Coupons for future fecals.

It wouldn't be as immediate (obviously) but it would mitigate all these other issues.

Scott
Sanford, Maine


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Scott,

That is an awesome idea for a workshop! It would probably be one of the most popular ones of this year's IAD.

Melissa



Scott said:


> For the record: An offer was made to have Dr Frye host a workshop on the subject. They could also sell Coupons for future fecals.
> 
> It wouldn't be as immediate (obviously) but it would mitigate all these other issues.
> 
> ...


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> For the record: An offer was made to have Dr Frye host a workshop on the subject. They could also sell Coupons for future fecals.
> 
> It wouldn't be as immediate (obviously) but it would mitigate all these other issues.


Just to clarify, I made that suggestion to Dr. Frye and Scott offered to "champion" the idea to the IAD committee. I don't think the committee has actually made any offer, yet, and the Fryes are hopefully considering it. 

It's still a great idea, IMHO, and I hope Dr. Frye sees the value in it and can make the time.

EricG.NH


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Yes sir! I think it's a great idea Eric.

The Committee would be all over it if the Frye's were to accept.

I think some good to both parties would come of it so I hope they reconsider their initial response.

I mean this in the most sincere way possible - everyone wins in this scenario.

s


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## SickVoodoo (Oct 9, 2005)

There have not been any offers to the Frye brothers from anyone affiliated with IAD regarding a workshop.

If you want to bash keep it somewhere they can at least respond.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You mean I'm not affiliated with IAD?

I offered on FrogNet - so yes, there has been an offer.

And I am not bashing anyone. I couldn't be any more sincere if I tried. Seriously.

If what I wrote on FrogNet is not considered an offer... trust me, if the Frye's want to do it, it's a done deal.

I've got 3PM or 4PM open on Saturday - let me know which one you prefer.

s


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I could be reading into it, but after rereading ht ewhole chain on frognet I think the Fryes want an invitation form the IAD committee rather than just one rep. Scott has done a lot of work here to try to make it happen but it sounds like they are worried that it is just one persons invite and hasn't been approved by the committe which sounds like a sticking point. Couple that with the fact that Rich is not able to respond here makes it harder to hash it out. Final point that I think I noticed is that some people have raised a question is that are the hotel and the insurer accepting of the fact that this activity will be done on the premises. I personally don't see the problem, but others have reaised concerns which is why I think they are hesitant. One other outside factor to it is that fact that Rich has received a rather cold treatment on the situation since he proposed it and I think it kinda rubbed him the wrong way. Say what you will, but i don't think they are going to jump out of their seat to do this after Rich got such a confrontational response from several people on frognet. 
Scott, this is a tremendous opportunity and despite our pst differences in other situatioins I am behind you that this is a good idea and should be pursued, but it will take some work. I think if the Fryes were given a little warmer reception (not by you, you have been cordial in your attemtps to make this happen), an invitation by the committe that reflected a committe wide approval of the situation and not just one members, and an assurance that the hotel and insurer have no issues with this, you MIGHT be able to make this happen. Granted, this is a little late in the game now, but it is a great opportunity that shouldn't be dropped over a he said/ she said arguement or technicalities


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I passed it by the Committee before extending the invite.

Yesterday evening I mentioned (on FrogNet, where Rich often posts) that I'd carry the idea to the Committee. 

I did. They (the IAD Committee) like it. We'd love it. 

We're completely interested in this and think it would be an excellent idea for a Workshop. Dr. Frye receives free publicity for his work. I realize that's different than getting *paid* for his work. But we also think it's something that can be tied together will some sort of pre-pay plan for future services (of the fecal matter sort ). It would also give the Frye's a way to "write off" (on taxes) their weekend here as they would be donating their time and services to a non-profit group.

The thing is, there really is no "official" IAD correspondence. Everyone on the Committee represents IAD. I wouldn't offer this workshop unless I had cleared it ahead of time, or knew that it was something that would not be a problem at all.

s


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Well, sounds like step one is under the belt. As I read on frognet it looks like ED has offered to do the legwork in finding out the logistics and legal aspects should Rich still express interest. Thats a real good start. Now it seems (as long as Ed finds out it is OK) that the last step is to mend some hard feelings. Personally, I wish Rich could come here and explain everything but there is way too much history there and too many cans of worms to deal with that this is not the place. You've done a good job of trying to make this happen and hope you guys can get something lined up.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Final point that I think I noticed is that some people have raised a question is that are the hotel and the insurer accepting of the fact that this activity will be done on the premises. I personally don't see the problem, but others have reaised concerns which is why I think they are hesitant."endsnip

There are multiple parties that have to be checked... and regulations followed such as the slides are probably going (waiting for the call back to a message now) to have to be treated as medical waste and we have to find out the rules about disposing of it.. the North-eastern states with beaches (like Maryland, and NJ tend to be sensitive to medical waste disposal after all of the syringes washed up on the beaches a few years ago and tightened up thier restrictions) We will have to use a sharps container which is labeled as biohazard something in this post 911 world that the hotel and the insurer may have issues with... particuarly as they use the hall as a banquet room. We have to get not only permission from our insurer, but MARS (which I don't think is a problem) as well as the hotel's insurer. 

It takes time to run all of these people down and get the answers.. In the case of people telling you its okay the verbal response is initially okay but you also need it in writing in case something goes wrong and they try to deny it. 

Time people... too many demands on it and not enough of it... 


Ed


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

But ... these issues are much easier to handle in a workshop scenario rather than a "Fecal on Demand" issue.

s


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Ehhhh poor Ed seems to always bear the brunt of being the voice that has to remind people that there are legal regulations, business relationships (like hey maybe the hotel might not be too wild about the idea, etc.) and so on to deal with....and then gets little love for reminding people about the real world. 

Well yeah like it or not, how the law treats animal poop in an animal cage and how it treats it if it is processed through some kind of medical test are two worlds apart. Kind of like the difference between you flushing your business down the toilet versus having a stool sample analyzed by your doctor. There's a reason for that sort of distinction but you aren't going to convince people who want to simplify the situation as 'poop is poop'.

Keep on fighting the good fight Ed. 

As for people getting their nose out of joint about the fact that someone typed a hasty response that landed poorly or that instant gratification was not achieved, well adults just deal with this kind of sh*t without having tantrums or bearing a grudge that they wear like some kind of battle scar and reminding you how they were wronged in the great battle of whatever.

My favorite quote from Frognet today....I'll have to keep this one handy...

"God, what a tedious bunch of nothing"

That pretty much sums it up as it pertains to the second part.

Bill


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Thanks Bill

Ed


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

It would be awsome if Frye could bring one a mircoscope with the cable that can project it on a tv so we could see whats going on. We talk so much about fecals it would be cool to really see whats going on.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

IMO, the idea of doing a fecal examine on a frog as a condition of purchase at a show, is problematic at many levels. Some examples... many vendors could simply refuse to give up what really is their poop, or argue some of amount of parasites is normal. Additionally, even if you could get the sample, there's a time element that's potentially prohibitve. There might be many examines ahead of yours. How long, if at all, will a vendor "hold" a frog while you go get a fecal done. How many fecal samples and examines would or could be done on a single frog in a single day?

As the prices of some of these frogs grows, it may make more sense, but how many buyers are going to pay $10-15 to wait to have a fecal done on that middle of the road frog, that the vendor will not hold, that otherwise looks healthy, especially given the somewhat subjective nature of the examine anyway(what results are OK/normal?)?

For myself I see value in spot checking my existing collection or testing those frogs that do not otherwise look and act healthy. I personally think doing fecals on frogs for sale at a show, is only going to open a can of worms. :shock: 
I've not been to any cat or dog shows but are fecals really done at any of these events? 

Regarding conflicts of interest, it is extremely important that in open situations(shows like this and others) that the organizers and those responsible, not only work to avoid improprieties, but the appearance of improprieties as well. It's nothing personel. Every company I've ever worked for has had a similar policy. It's just good business. Testing the health of frogs for sale at shows, however well performed, will never completely avoid the appearance of impropriety. 

While I have no evidence or reason to believe that Dr. Frye would use fecal examines to better his current or future frog sales, he should none the less, consider that some people may think otherwise. It's a difficult spot to be in. The reputations of many well meaning people, have been damaged by far less good intent. No good deed goes unpunished. (An exaggeration for effect). It's a prickly path to walk.

It's for these and others reasons that I believe a workshop/demo and perhaps a "pre-pay plan" like Scott mentioned, are the best, most workable and beneficial approaches for all.

EricG.NH


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## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

Eric,
Thank you for putting into words what I meant. Its the appearance of impropriety that is what is the biggest problem. Not that I think that the frye's would do anything but in court you'd have to disprove that there was any impropriety and that is very hard to do.


Sean


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

When I first read this post, I was thinking that it would be great to bring fecals from home to have tested on our current collection and it would save on shipping and we would know the answers that day. I was not even thinking of testing frogs that we may purchase because 
(1.)there probably won't be any poop in the container for testing.
(2.)like someone has already mentioned, the vendors are probably not going to hold frogs for a few hours while tests are done, in hopes that you would even come back to get the frogs and watch other potential buyers walk right by because all their frog are on hold.
(3.)if the test comes back bad, I have no doubt in my mind that someone out there would make a scene that a certain vendor has bad frogs and not to buy frogs from them.

I think maybe if this were geared towards people testing frogs that they already have then there should not be an issue. 

I don't really see how people are thinking that the Frye's are doing this to boost sales in their frogs, which they won't even be sellng at IAD. Can't someone just be offering a service to help us without being accused of having alterior motives. If the Frye's and IAD think this would be a good idea to do at the show, then just let it happen. If you don't agree with it, then don't stop at their table. I personally think it would be great if the Frye's come and give us the opportunity to speak with two very experienced people in the hobby. I have met both Rich and Dr. Frye and both were very willing to answer any questions I had. 

I agree with others about making a workshop-type setting and getting a microscope where the picture could be put on a tv for us to see what he is seeing. People would have to understand that Dr. Frye may not have time to stop and talk about each sample for more than a couple minutes since he would have lots of other tests to run. But if they are there the whole weekend then we should have plenty of time to ask any questions we may have for them. 

This is just my point of view on this topic.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

so is this a sure thing? I'd like to know before I show up to IAD with a pocket full of poop :lol:


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

SickVoodoo said:


> Just passing on a post from dart den.
> 
> Well guys , after talking to my brother and reading "conflict of interest" too
> many time and the possiblity of my brother giving false information to sell
> ...


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## jmoose (Jun 21, 2006)

Thanks Melissa for the update,

Too bad, it could've been a good opportunity to see how tests are done
Maybe just them doing a presentation using photos or video tapes could've also be one of great workshop series 

Hope they are coming to "Frog Day" in NYC ??


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