# First time culture fail?



## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

On Nov 24 I made my first two D. Melo cultures using Repashy Superfly media. 

I followed mixing directions using boiling water and after cooling (the following day, nov 25) I added coffee filters and 50-100 flies. 

Now this morning I am noticing a sour cheese/smelly shoes smell which I am assuming is mold/bacteria and not good. 

I can easily come to terms with my first attempt fail, but success for my next attempt is important to keep my frogs fed!

I think I added just a bit too much water but I am not 100% sure that is the problem. My coffee filters look 'wet' which i dont think is proper. 

Any insight would be appreciated. If I have left out important details regarding my methods please let me know. 

Thanks!


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

i havent tried culturing flies yet but i bookmarked the below site for my future reference. did you add yeast and vinegar? are the cultures in ambient lighting?

New England Herpetoculture LLC - Fly Care

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/93723-mold-fruit-fly-culture.html


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

As per the superfly directions I did not add any yeast or vinegar.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

erikm said:


> As per the superfly directions I did not add any yeast or vinegar.


There's a lot of variables into getting flies right.

I personally throw a couple grains of brewers yeast into every culture and I haven't had a problem with mold. But yeah, you might need to cut back on the water if the filter was soaked. For me, it's different at different times of the year because of the humidity in the air.


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## Engeli (Oct 3, 2014)

Best would be to try some more cultures right now with less / more water until you find your right consistency and hopefully one of the cultures will start off. 

Usually you do not have to add anything extra to Repashy super fly.

But honestly, you should experiment with it before you have the frogs as the cultures need a bit practice to find the optimal way that works for you.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Did you cover your cultures while they cooled? Did you work in a clean area?

Get some Clorox wipes and clean all your counter tops, sink etc. Wash your hands and don’t use any old towels, dish rags, sponges to clean with. I also wipe down the culture cups and lids with Clorox wipes and rinse with very hot water.

Fresh cultures are basically a petri dish just waiting for inoculation. The contaminant could have come from the air, your hands, or even your seed culture.

Also, I could be wrong here, but I don’t think that the mold inhibitor needs boiling water - just hot water. I don't use boiling water because cooling takes forever. With hot water it cools fast enough that you can add FFs within a few minutes.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Covered the cultures with the vented lids right away after making.

I did quite a bit of reading regarding SuperFly and Allan recommends using boiling water, thats why I did as well.

I'm going to try another culture and be careful to be exact with water. I really feel like my coffee filters should not be so saturated.

I worked in a very clean area and these flies are straight from UE.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

I use exactly the same method as you do, and with a few exceptions (everyone has cultures crash once in a while) I have great fly cultures. You do not need to add anything to Repashy SuperFly. It may very well be the amount of water that you had in your mix. The consistency of your media should be almost like ketchup. Too soupy and your flies will drown and you may get lots of mold, but it cannot be too dry either. Take your time with your next cultures and play around with the consistency. Make sure that you make a few more cultures than you actually need. It is always better to have a little extra than not enough. Also, in the event that you do get a crash, you will not find yourself not being able to feed your frogs. Also, have friends in your area that can help you out in an emergency. I have been on the giving and receiving end of bugs when there are crashes. I am lucky to have good friends in my area that can help me out. In the mean time, have a back-up plan so you can get some flies to feed your frogs with until you get this right. Good luck.

Edit: There was also a great point made about adjusting the humidity based on the ambient relative humidity. There are some great threads on DB about how to make cultures and properly maintaining the humidity by using plastic containers and other methods.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks for the detailed reply. 

There are very few dead flies in the media of the two cultures. Maybe 2-3 in each. 

Should they not smell bad at all at this point?

Should I toss these completely if they smell sour at 3 days?


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Hmmm. Not sure what to tell you there. The Repashy media has a distinct smell, but I wouldn't call it sour. Do you have live flies in there still? I would recommend that you take those cultures and set them away from your new cultures. See what happens. As long as there are live flies, you can still get breeding and a decent production. Give it a try and see what happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

The instructions say to mix 3 or 4 tablespoons with 2/3 cup of water. I make 2 cultures at a time and use 7 tablespoons with 1 1/3 cups boiling water. It comes out with a consistency of mashed potatoes. Keep in mind, I live in Florida with high humidity so I like my cultures a little on the dry side.


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## C los7 (Sep 24, 2015)

I've never had any issues just following the instructions.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Getting culture making down to a science can take alot of time and repetition. I have no idea how many hundreds and hundres to thousands of cultures ive made over the years. And.....I still get it wrong now and again. I dont use repashy, or any other commercially made diets. I use my own. I find the #1 key to good cultures is getting the right water/mixture consistency correct. Too soupy and your flies drown, to dry and the cultures will have a very poor initial boom and then die/fry out. I shoot for literally as soupy as I can get it without flies drowning. Keep in mind I am in Colorado USA and our humidity here is usually around 20% indoors. As to the comments about boiling....Grain mites are in almost everything, including powdered and flake potato mix. There will also be some small percentage of mold spores. Boiling water helps to nullify both those issues as well as gaurentee your media soaks up the water faster and more evenly.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

I've frozen the two really stinky cultures and re-made 2 more, with slightly less water. The coffee filters are WAY less wet now.

I also have a little theory:

I used the fine mesh lids while letting the media cool. They became soaked with condensation and were still quite wet when I tossed them into the freezer.

Did the wet mesh stop air exchange? Am I way off in right field with this one?

I've cooled these new cultures and changed the lids to a clean dry lid.


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## KCS2015 (Oct 28, 2015)

I don't think air exchange would have been stopped as much as the condensation likely made an already wet media too wet. I had that happen recently with a home made medium that normally works good for me with no smell. I got it a bit too wet and used cardboard tissue tubes cut into strips. I lost the adults in that culture though there are larvae. I normally aim for a consistency like brownie batter, only slightly drier. It should have some decent resistance when you stir it but when you put it in jars/deli cups it should even out in the bottom. I will be making some new cultures tomorrow hopefully. I use mainly banana and potato flakes with a few tablespoons of vinegar. I also add whatever fruity starchy produce I have on hand. The only culture I have lost and had mold on was the wet batch.


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## KCS2015 (Oct 28, 2015)

Almost forgot to add I am still a beginner. I started culturing FFs at the beginning of November from a mother culture of 200 or so melanogasters. I have 500 or better right now and many more larvae. Of course I have been feeding them out all this time too. I only have two leucs at the moment but I hope to get two blue and black auratus by early spring.


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

erikm said:


> I used the fine mesh lids


how humid is the place you store your cultures? maybe you need vented lids?

https://www.joshsfrogs.com/catalog/blog/2015/06/which-fruit-fly-culture-lid-should-you-use/


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Always bring your culture water to a raging boil, i have always made my own media and take additional measures with them. I take let say 5 cups, each cup get 1/4 cup of dry media, each cup gets microwaved with dry media for 30 seconds, next step is excelsior balled into individual cup portions and i also microwave them for one minute.

Have two cups ready "one with media one empty". Measure the total amount of water needed for one culture, put 1/3 of the total water needed in the empty cup pour in dry media and then toss in the additional water and mix rapidly with a fork. Once you have it mixed take your cup and tap it lightly on the counter 5-10 time to remove all trapped air in the media, cover with a paper towel and put the lid on and wait until completely cool. Any additional water on the sides of the cup can be wiped with a paper towel. Add excelsior and flys and your good .


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

I wiped the excess condensation off the cup walls for both new cultures I made. Hoping my issue was just too much moisture!

My cultures are just regular house humidity.


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## Raul Gomez (Nov 19, 2015)

I cant get a culture to produce either its very frustrating. Are One type of fly easier than the other? I use Hydei but in thinking of trying Melos instead...


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Melanogaster will boom the fastest, they are your smallest fly, Hydei take the longest and are good to midsize to large frogs. I have found Turkish gliders to be the best all-around feeder, good 2nd even third round production. Melano's I find peter out and culture dead after first boom. If your having problems with culturing, post a picture of the cultures inside and outside. I can tell you "usually" just from looking at the culture whats going wrong. Some possible and common problems:

1.) Culture started with media either to soupy, or to dry.
2.) Culture not started with enough flies
3.) Culture started with flies from old cultures, mites taking over quickly
4.) Cultures kept in an area that is to cool for them to reproduce quickly
5.) Mold......
6.) Contamination by fliers...


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## KCS2015 (Oct 28, 2015)

Aren't turkish gliders a type of melanogaster also? They look it to me anyway.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

#4 is an interesting point. I had originally kept my flies in my spare room in the basement where it was about 69-70. I have since moved all of them into my office which has a small oil heater and the room is 71-72.



pdfCrazy said:


> Melanogaster will boom the fastest, they are your smallest fly, Hydei take the longest and are good to midsize to large frogs. I have found Turkish gliders to be the best all-around feeder, good 2nd even third round production. Melano's I find peter out and culture dead after first boom. If your having problems with culturing, post a picture of the cultures inside and outside. I can tell you "usually" just from looking at the culture whats going wrong. Some possible and common problems:
> 
> 1.) Culture started with media either to soupy, or to dry.
> 2.) Culture not started with enough flies
> ...


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

You want to shoot for about 75 degrees, up to high 70's, over 80 is too much you risk creating fliers


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

72-73 is as warm as my office/frog room will get. I am hoping that temperature will suffice.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Hey Erik,first let's answer the Q on turks,or as you guys call 'em turkish gligers yup a form of mel. 

Erik i'd grab some turks,some wingless mels and hydie and try all as a first up. You have so much good info i'm trying to go a bit left field and focus on other feeders. Frankly I don't think I can add much. I try to get to a newer keeper before frogs and pleade the case for mastering culturing before keeping any frogs. Bro we all have to learn there is no malice here directed towards you ,but other new folks might read and always the goal is the best possible and easiest way of starting keeping,that is always to get the culturing sorted under no pressure to feed. If I get to someone early enough the first thing I say is buy some iso and start them today,they take time bro.

Buddy have you got springtails underway,please look into the charcoal methods that are vented with something like the 2 micro filters you guys can get.

Again similar questions with iso get some of the fast greys Costarican purples,or what ever they are know as locally and some dwarf whites and get them going well too. Maybe some dwarf striped too

And again with bean weavils,bean beatles you guys call them I believe great little feeder to have chuntering away for bigger frogs grain weavils for smaller, mate I'm not sure is you guys can use these,there might be some state regs,others local to you might help.

Erik,none of us is perfect,why I haven't dwelt on flies ,even though they are the principal feeder We use, and the topic of this thread, is simply because any of us can have problems so backstops are always important. Plus as above the guys are watching your back and I think you have good info to work off.

Buddy we(Shaz and I) can feed all our frogs probably for at least a week maybe two or 3 just iso . This never happens it's just comforting for me to have all those iso(plus others feeders) just chuntering along quietly they get looked at every couple of weeks or less I suppose. Lets be clear I'm not advocating feeding iso excessively I'm saying if every thing else crashes then I have iso while I find a work around,and me froggies don't go hungry same could be said for beanies or springs. fundamentally what i'm trying to get over is work hard on the feeders even aphids can be brought into this. always go overkill. It seems like lots of graft I know mate We both work like sods on feeders,but it's way better than stress for us. Hard graft never hurt no one.

Erik I hope this helps a bit,I know it isn't answering your question, i'm trying to give you that over view from someone with a few frogs to feed and also who buys a feeder VERY very rarely. 

OK a few words on the flies nailing your variation in relative humidity through the course of a year is silly important. Get all cultures not touching on some form of mite prevention,ie mite paper,or maybe diatomous earth,so you can prevent the spread of mites. Be orderly on your cultures keep the old away from the new. Try more than one method at a time bro while learning(ha that never stops bro I still know nuffin) . 

Finally dig for "frogfreak's" posts. Glenn cultured a goodly few flies,I haven't spoken to him for a while,but I believe he is close to you. i'm told he has left the hobby,SADLY,but all the same he's a wonderful lovely cracking guy and there has to be something to learn about culturing from him for you personally ,feeding a huge collection of tincs requires some level of food,so have a dig bro

good luck mate 

Stu


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi Stu, really appreciate the response from you. I have read your entire main thread with your frog room. Epic thread!

See my comments below:



stu&shaz said:


> Hey Erik,first let's answer the Q on turks,or as you guys call 'em turkish gligers yup a form of mel.
> 
> Erik i'd grab some turks,some wingless mels and hydie and try all as a first up. You have so much good info i'm trying to go a bit left field and focus on other feeders. Frankly I don't think I can add much. I try to get to a newer keeper before frogs and pleade the case for mastering culturing before keeping any frogs. Bro we all have to learn there is no malice here directed towards you ,but other new folks might read and always the goal is the best possible and easiest way of starting keeping,that is always to get the culturing sorted under no pressure to feed. If I get to someone early enough the first thing I say is buy some iso and start them today,they take time bro.
> 
> ...


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

It's been just over 48 hours since I made this culture. It's much drier than the previous cultures I made. It has 50-100 flies and is kept at 72F.

It has a faint dirty shoe smell already 

Do cultures smell prior to the maggots moving the media? Is it normal for them to smell a bit?

Its only smelly if you put it up to your face and smell it. The room does not smell at all.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

That culture (unless your in a super humid area) is to dry just from the look of it. Your culture media should be just soupy enough at the time you make it for the media to level out almost perfectly flat from gravity, alot like melted ice cream or applesauce would do. This culture may survive if you spray it down ever so slightly a few times. The smell you may be smelling is likely the yeast in the culture. All culture media is going to have brewers yeast and sugar in it. That will create a reaction where the yeast consumes the sugar, the byproduct will carbon dioxide. Its nearly identical to how brewing bear works. Commercially made culture media usually has cinnamon in it to somewhat combat the smell and mold....but....theres only so much you can do. Fruit fly cultures, even on your best day, are going to have an odor. For temperature, you can set the fruit fly cultures on top of an electronic device that stays on and warm all the time to keep the temp up. When I only had a few tanks (how long ago was that!?!?!) I would keep my cultures on top of the lights on my tanks.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks a lot. Really appreciate the quick response.

Perhaps my initial cultures were too dry as well then.

Off to make another and I'll make sure it's soupy enough to self level


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KCS2015 said:


> Aren't turkish gliders a type of melanogaster also? They look it to me anyway.


Yes they are both melanogaster mutations. One could be a curly wing that has been renamed as part of a marketing tactic and the other is because people don't bother to designate the wingless mutant as wingless. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mavpa said:


> There's a lot of variables into getting flies right.
> 
> I personally throw a couple grains of brewers yeast into every culture and I haven't had a problem with mold. But yeah, you might need to cut back on the water if the filter was soaked. For me, it's different at different times of the year because of the humidity in the air.


Brewer's yeast isn't added to Repashy's media as it already contains it in an optimal protein range. Adding too much of it can throw the protein out of the range and result in foul odors. 

Vinegar is pretty much not going to stop aggressive molds like A.niger from taking over cultures as they like the pH as low as 2. 

Light has no effect on production. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> Melano's I find peter out and culture dead after first boom.


This is most probably due to selection for intolerance in older cultures. If you can acquire some from a person who makes their cultures from the second boom or later it should fix that issue. 



pdfCrazy said:


> 2.) Culture not started with enough flies
> 3.) Culture started with flies from old cultures, mites taking over quickly.


Both of these should be non-issues. Female melanogaster can lay up to 400 eggs each so you really don't need a ton of them to really populate the culture. 

With respect to the mites if that is a concern, dust the flies in a narrow container and shake them. This reduces the mites as they move down the tube in the mix. Use the flies from the top. 
In reality though it is unlikely that grain mites are going to cause the culture to crash as they don't tend to really have high population numbers until the conditions change more towards the drier end towards the end of the culture's life cycle. 
Cool temperatures will slow the production of a culture and at 69 F it takes 19 days to complete the life cycle compared to 8.5 days at 77 F. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> All culture media is going to have brewers yeast and sugar in it. That will create a reaction where the yeast consumes the sugar, the byproduct will carbon dioxide..


Brewer's yeast in the cultures is inactivated (dead) and is simply added for the protein content. If the person doesn't add baker's yeast or live yeast used to make beer or wine etc then the microbes (including yeasts) that are on the body of the fly are going to establish themselves and begin to feed on the cultures. Some microbes are going to create worse smells than others and I would suspect that is the problem with the first two cultures. To reduce the chance that these microbes will establish themselves, add some baker's yeast (or other live yeast) to the cultures. This will create a greater amount of competition against the other microbes as well as help to ensure a more rapid egg deposition event. 

This is where much of that information originated http://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/ja...boratory-exercises/fruit-fly-reference-manual 

Some comments 

Ed


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks for your replies Ed.

Both new cultures that I have made had an initial stink to them at 48 hours but it has now really tapered off at 72-96 hours and smells very lightly like the original culture I got from UE.

FYI I did not add any active yeast to either one, but I will try that on my next culture that I make. How many 'balls' of active yeast should I be adding?


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## TJ_Burton (Jul 22, 2015)

erikm said:


> Thanks for your replies Ed.
> 
> Both new cultures that I have made had an initial stink to them at 48 hours but it has now really tapered off at 72-96 hours and smells very lightly like the original culture I got from UE.
> 
> FYI I did not add any active yeast to either one, but I will try that on my next culture that I make. How many 'balls' of active yeast should I be adding?


I might make a suggestion for you,

Instead of using coffee filters, paper towel or the like, use Excelsior. Excelsior, Excelsior Packaging in Stock - ULINE.ca 

It doesn't get soppy, or collapse, and has a great amount of surface area.
Also, its relatively inexpensive. 5lbs of it will last you a long, long, looong time.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

I wanted to try use excelsior but only having 3 frogs, it didn't make sense for me to spend $40 for 5lbs shipped. So for now, I'm going to stick with coffee filters. They work for UE, so they should work for me 




TJ_Burton said:


> I might make a suggestion for you,
> 
> Instead of using coffee filters, paper towel, or the like in the culture, use Excelsior. Excelsior, Excelsior Packaging in Stock - ULINE.ca
> 
> ...


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## TJ_Burton (Jul 22, 2015)

erikm said:


> I wanted to try use excelsior but only having 3 frogs, it didn't make sense for me to spend $40 for 5lbs shipped. So for now, I'm going to stick with coffee filters. They work for UE, so they should work for me


Where do you live? (PM me)

I have some I can part with if you want to try it - that way you don't get nailed for shipping and you can see why people prefer it.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

I'm in Burlington. I PM'd you!


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