# Ventilation in terrarium?



## ZombieElite

I'm setting up a few different terrariums for different species and had a question about ventilation. 

I'm setting up automatic misting and I'm using FrogFace conversion kits on two of the terrariums (has ventilation). On the third, I'm keeping the 10g horizontal and putting a lid on it. The lid completely seals the terrarium. I know that this is ok for tropical plants, but will having it completely sealed hurt the frogs? The lid obviously gets opened every other day for feeding. 

What is your opinion?


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## JonRich

This is tricky. I think just opening it now and then isn't enough. You want air movement, even when sealed. 


I have a few tanks that are in essence "sealed", but they have fans that do move air quite a bit. If it's not too much trouble , i'd suggest drilling a hole in the lid and placing screen over the hole. Then place a fan over the hole and something over the fan (this way the fan will circulate the humid air from the tank and not dry out the tank by pulling in dry outside air. Hope that makes sense. 

Or you could just drill 2 holes in the lid and cover with screen (in either corner of the tank. ) It will have plenty venting and not dry the tank out too much. 

~Jon


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## Ed

Do a search for evaporative cooling, this has been discussed frequently and as was noted simply opening and closing the lid really isn't sufficient. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Liquid8540

Why do you think opening and closing isn't enough out of curiosity?


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## JonRich

Liquid8540 said:


> Why do you think opening and closing isn't enough out of curiosity?


Because you'll have stagnant air for too long between openings. The OP stated that it would be at lease 48 hours between openings. It would work, but the frogs and plants would both benefit form some air circulation. (especially in the warmer months)


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## Encyclia

Just to be clear, it's not a matter of CO2 overabundance or inadequate oxygen (unless you have a REALLY tight seal and don't open the tank for long periods of time). It is a matter of keeping your humidity below 100%. If you have a false bottom where you accumulate your misting water, you will have a very hard time keeping the humidity lower than 100% if you have no ventilation to the outside of the tank. This would be just as true if you put a fan in a sealed tank. The frogs cannot evaporatively cool at 100% humidity. There is no gradient.

Mark


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## SCS

Encyclia said:


> Just to be clear, it's not a matter of CO2 overabundance or inadequate oxygen (unless you have a REALLY tight seal and don't open the tank for long periods of time). It is a matter of keeping your humidity below 100%. If you have a false bottom where you accumulate your misting water, you will have a very hard time keeping the humidity lower than 100% if you have no ventilation to the outside of the tank. This would be just as true if you put a fan in a sealed tank. The frogs cannot evaporatively cool at 100% humidity. There is no gradient.
> 
> Mark


Thank you very much for this explanation. The ventilation topic is so confusing because there is such a wide range of opinions on vent or not. 

What humidity level do you shoot for? 

TIA, SCS


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## FrogTim

70-90& humidity is ideal. I personally strive for 80-95%.

Another thing to consider is condensation. My exo terra fogged up when I completely sealed off the top even though it still has a front vent.


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## Ed

Encyclia said:


> Just to be clear, it's not a matter of CO2 overabundance or inadequate oxygen (unless you have a REALLY tight seal and don't open the tank for long periods of time).


I wouldn't dismiss CO2 so quickly. Keep in mind that CO2 can displace oxygen in enclosure low points as it is heavier in enclosures where there isn't sufficient air circulation. As a cause of death this has even occurred in the environment in specific conditions and was considered to be a cause of death in bison in Yellowstone. 

See for an explanation

Carbon Dioxide 1 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

FrogTim said:


> 70-90& humidity is ideal. I personally strive for 80-95%.
> 
> Another thing to consider is condensation. My exo terra fogged up when I completely sealed off the top even though it still has a front vent.


The frogs are fine at 60% and above. I would suggest not shooting for 95%.

Some comments 

Ed


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## JonRich

Also decomposing organic matter produces gasses that can be harmful. Especially rotting fruit from feeding stations.


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## Ed

JonRich said:


> Also decomposing organic matter produces gasses that can be harmful. Especially rotting fruit from feeding stations.


While this is a source of CO2, it is going to be a much much smaller source of CO2 than the process occurring in the substrate, leaf litter and the respiration of the plants after the lights go out. 

some comments 

Ed


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## SCS

JonRich said:


> This is tricky. I think just opening it now and then isn't enough. You want air movement, even when sealed.
> 
> 
> I have a few tanks that are in essence "sealed", but they have fans that do move air quite a bit. If it's not too much trouble , i'd suggest drilling a hole in the lid and placing screen over the hole. Then place a fan over the hole and something over the fan (this way the fan will circulate the humid air from the tank and not dry out the tank by pulling in dry outside air. Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Or you could just drill 2 holes in the lid and cover with screen (in either corner of the tank. ) It will have plenty venting and not dry the tank out too much.
> 
> ~Jon


Hi Jon- What's the chances you could snap a picture of this fan... covered?

Thanks!


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## jturner

My advice would be to have a screen opening in the top of the tank and have a fan on a timer to go on a couple times per day bringing outside air into the viv. Creating wet and dry cycles has been crucial for me keeping broms and orchids thriving in vivs without having them rot. It is actually a good thing in my experience for the viv to dry out a little bit at least once a day. As for the frogs, they do fine with a dip in humidity and actually after seeing darts in their natural habitat I have realized that many people keep their vivs far more humid than necessary. Just a piece of advice that has worked well for me.


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## comas60634

Something new to me. Good info. Thank you!


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## Pumilo

I wouldn't call 2 holes in your lid, plenty of ventilation. While it's true enough that even a little ventilation is better than none, 2 holes in your lid is definitely a little ventilation.
I put a full 1" screen mesh strip all the way across the front of the viv, right below the sliding door, and a 2nd, full, 1" strip of mesh all the way across the top of the viv.
When I do ventilation, a full, 1" strip, is what I consider the minimum amount of ventilation I'm looking for.

Frog Tim, I'm just trying to help...If you instead, aim for an average humidity level of closer to 70%, sometimes dipping to 60% and sometimes going up some, but not staying elevated, you could potentially add years to your frog's lives. High humidity can cause bacterial infections, leading to respiratory issues, and shortened lives. High humidity levels might also lead to a substrate that stays too wet. Substrate that stays too wet can also lead to bacterial infections. It can literally rot the feet and leg flesh from your frogs bones. While a well drained substrate could alleviate that danger, you can't eliminate the other dangers.

Ventilation. Where, in the wild, is there any group of animals that live out their lives with a total lack of ventilation and air movement? Where, in the wild, do frogs live where the humidity constantly pushes 80 to 95%? It's not natural.

Mr. Zombie, yes, there is information both ways. However, if you start looking at when the post was made, and figure out how much experience the poster has, before taking his advice. You'll soon find that the vast majority of *recent* posts, by froggers with *experience*, pretty much all agree that ventilation is a very good thing.

I don't know of anybody who has run a frog viv with ventilation, that would ever consider going back to fully sealed. Fully sealed is in the past, where it should forever remain.


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## bssknox

I have a 10g grow out tank for my first set of frogs and had this same question about the necessity of ventilation. Got my answer!


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## steadyroller

Appreciate the useful info!


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## John J M

Ed said:


> I wouldn't dismiss CO2 so quickly. Keep in mind that CO2 can displace oxygen in enclosure low points as it is heavier in enclosures where there isn't sufficient air circulation. As a cause of death this has even occurred in the environment in specific conditions and was considered to be a cause of death in bison in Yellowstone.
> 
> See for an explanation
> 
> Carbon Dioxide 1
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


One other point that I have seldom heard anyone mention is about the plants. Some of what I've read seems to rely on the plants using CO2 and producing O2 in return. However, this only happens during the light cycle in plants. At night with the lights out, plants actually use O2 and produce CO2. Also all of the microbes and arthropods in the bioactive substrate also use O2 and produce CO2, so that by morning before the lights come on O2 levels will be at their lowest point and even more dangerous, CO2 level are at their peak levels. If you don't think that microbes and arthropods produce much CO2 you should look up how much of the earth's CO2 production is attributable to termites. And also it's well known that fish crashes in unaerated green water ponds occur just prior to sunrise.


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