# Life without fruitflies?



## Vicky Rut

Hi I am a beginner and couldn't find this in the search...

What do you think of D. leucomelas surviving without fruitflies in their diet?
(I am not being mean to them, they are just unavailable to me)

What would supliment fruitflies the most?
I was told I could use orginal houseflies, but personally do not find that very
hygenic  one never knows where they have been :roll:

Note that springtails, crickets and termites are also unavailable for me...

_Ps. Prehabs this post belongs in the beginners discussion?
Please move it there if it is propper please._


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## Ryan

Welcome to the forum! First on the forum from Iceland that I am aware of! Well maybe if you find a way or a supplier that could somehow send you some ff's or a fellow frogger from somewhere that has them available.

EDIT: do you have a source to get the frogs? They most likely have a food source that you could use.

PS love icelandic bands like Mum and Sigur Ros


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## Frogtofall

When I first got into the hobby back in the mid 90's, all I ever used were crickets. In the summers, I often did field sweepings for added variety. But again like they all say, make sure your field sweepings are from a safe area not by an open highway or a pesticide/insecticide sprayed area. Vitamin/mineral dusted crickets and field sweepings is pretty much what I did and my frogs did fine. Crickets just get expensive if you don't breed them yourself, which can be a task in its own.

Good luck.


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## stchupa

*Re: Life withouth fruitflies?*

Sounds like a good idea to me, fruit flies are diffinately the least of my favorites. They also don't give much of a challenge for the frogs or me for that matter.


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## Vicky Rut

Thank you for the replies 

I am sad to say I already got the frogs :shock:
They were given to me quite unexpected so I was in no
way prepaired. Since I have two horned frogs it was thought I
could just keep em together








At the moment the only food item I have are small mealworms but they are not eating them.

I belive these frogs to be illegal here, I do also know for a fact that importation
of crickets, fruitflies or any other inscets is FORBIDDEN. 
My best guess is they were orginally smuggled into the country...
so there isn't any suplier, my friend got them at a petstore wich has nothing to feed them with for sale.

*So given your answear (frog to fall) if I get them to eat the tiny mealworms
and try my best to add varity from Icelandic nature they could very well live a good life?*
_(I try my best gutloading the mealworms I am cultivating for the hornedfrogs...)
_

Though I find them skinny and am afraid I will be unsucsessful in keeping
them since preperation was non and food recources scarcly minimun.
Here is a pic of the ''fatter'' one  









P.s. Ryan
SigurRós is excelent indeed


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## stchupa

Oh greaaat, I would hesitate using mealworms and if the are not eating them then take them out. If the mealworms get hungry?!?!? I would suggest only feed mealies to what is able to chew otherwise they have been known to chew THEIR way out.


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## KeroKero

The mealworms are too big, these guys prefer foods the size of small ants, and... well... fruit flies.

What feeder insects DO you have available?

Do you have fruit flies in the wild up there? Leaving fruit out and culturing wild flies (which unfortunately fly) may be your only bet. I don't know what insects you have native there so I don't know what to recomend trying. Do you have Aphids? Isopds/Rollie Pollies? (you can feed them the babies of those). Termites?

The unfortunate part is that you do not have an acceptable "staple" feeder insect to work with - fruit flies or crickets. It may be very hard to keep these guys healthy with the lack of feeder insects to feed them.

Importation of flies may be illegal, but maybe there are some in the country used by labs? Maybe a university that works with genetics might have some fruit flies and you can talk to them.


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## Vicky Rut

I was under the impression that was just a myth!?!?
And if would happen the king mealworm would be the one to do so...

If I take the darn mealworms out what in the world is there to give :shock:
Frozenbloodworms? Canned foods?
I am in serious trouble here  The food source is quite limited and
I have to say I am beginning to think very ill of the person 
who smuggled them here :roll:


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## KeroKero

No, the frogs must have live moving food. The movement catches their attention, and triggers their feeding response. Some frogs (like horned frogs) can be conditioned to take food out of tongs/hand, but PDFs do not. You need to track down a live food source that is small enough for them.

Likely they are ignoring the mealworms as they are much too large.


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## c'est ma

Do you have any stores around that sell live bait for fishing? They may have crickets, fly larvae, etc., for sale.

--Diane


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## Vicky Rut

Thank you for your input KeroKero, the university is a good bet indeed,
I shall see if they have something of use 

I do indeed use that trick with my horned, wiggle the food in front of them.
sad 2 hear it not working with these.

As for native food items....
I think we have in total 5 types of flies that I know off 
bumblebee, wasps, housefly, fishfly and tiny flies that resemble moskito flies, 
I do have smaller mealworms, do you think I should try those atleast?
How about those tiny spiderlike creatures?

Has anyone tried cultivating houseflies?
the winter is quite harsh here and nothing of the buglife survives 



c'est ma said:


> Do you have any stores around that sell live bait for fishing? They may have crickets, fly larvae, etc., for sale.
> 
> --Diane


I have checked with the ministry of aqriculture and there is 
no way any crickets are on this isolated island. 
(unless illegally smuggled ofcourse and a person guilty of 
a crime would not jump out to help me if they had some, though
I have tried to express my need on Icelandic forums in hope someone
that might have some would help).


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## KeroKero

We culture houseflies often as feeders (recently a steady strain of flightless houseflies was released to the hobby, and they sold out within a few weeks!) but I believe the leucs might be a little small for them, as the PDFs I remember ate them were a bit larger (and took larger food items). At this point its worth a shot.


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## dmartin72

You better hurry up with the university avenue. It will take at least 1 1/2 before you get a culture going. There has got to be someone in Iceland that has PDFs. Seek them out for feeders ASAP. Those little guys do not have much time. You might try field sweeping meadow plankton and such if it is warm enough, but I have no idea of Iceland's seasons and type of bugs you have. Do you ants?


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## dmartin72

Wow...no buglife survives the winter. I would try the mosquito sized flies and tiny spider like bugs.

They need their own enclosure with high humidity.


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## booboo

as for now i cant help but i suggest starting a compost pile they attract all sorts of insects that the leucs would enjoy.


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## Vicky Rut

Thank you all for the very great help you have been 
You all are indeed to kind 

dmartin72 I don't think we have ants, atleast I have never seen em as one does
abroad... The tiny flies don't seem to be around yet this time of year but 
The tiny spiderlike creatures might be.
How short time do they have?

The petstore my friends got them from had them for over two months
and told me they feed them on houseflies and earthworms :roll:
If the meal worms are to big, those earthworms definetly are too,
they looked like anacondas compaired to the tiny froggies...

I am working on enclosure for them, (they are now in the plastic shoebox type recomended)
when you say they need their own enclosure do you mean I have to keep them
seperate from each other? Can they hurt each other? I have no idea of the sex (females fight more right?)


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## elmoisfive

Try contacting Eiríkur Steingrímsson at the University of Iceland. His email is [email protected]

As far as I know, there is only one research group in Iceland working on Drosophila. If Dr. Steingrimsson can't help you or point you in the right direction, you might want to contact DeCode Genetics to see if any of the scientists know of Drosophila work in Iceland that might not be 'on the map' so to speak.

Good luck.

Bill


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## dmartin72

...seperate from the horned frogs!


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## Vicky Rut

dmartin72 said:


> ...seperate from the horned frogs!


 LOL yes ofcourse, sorry, wouldn't dream of putting them together,
but thanks for the heads up though 




elmoisfive said:


> Try contacting Eiríkur Steingrímsson at the University of Iceland. His email is [email protected]


Wow! That is more help than I ever would have expected!
I will indeed try, thank you ever so much!

I ventured out in Icelandic nature just now, in the dark 
and found some lice creatures that jump alot, they are quite tiny,
the biggest are around 3mm length. 
I am hoping that will do the trick... for now at least.
Please do inform me if someone thinks those are a bad idea...


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## dmartin72

Now your thinking! That is a great idea!


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## KeroKero

Yeah, seperate from the horned frogs, lol, they should be fine together. Might want to try the houseflies the pet store was feeding if they made it this long on them... 

The bugs you're discribing sound like a type of springtails - here is a pic of some of the ones I culture (maginified obviously!):


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## Danyal

does the petstore carry live bloodworms? you might be able to feed them bloodworms in a shallow water dish with just enough water to cover the worms, or drop them in a damp water dish and they will wiggle around for about 10 minutes before they get too dry. also bait shops might have red worms(like eathworms but really small) and waxworms(basically maggots sold in sawdust that need to be refridgerated) 
disclaimer:
i do not yet own a PDF or have alot of knowledge about feeding them, these are simply ideas for small moving insects.


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## Vicky Rut

KeroKero, they doo look quite like that!
I was betting on some type of Aphids but when shown this pic of springtails I am almost certain...
These I found in some moss, I could probable cultivate them then in a mossy enviroment...
(for winter if the froggies survive)




KeroKero said:


> Might want to try the houseflies the pet store was feeding if they made it this long on them...


The petstore had Icelandic moss in their cage, so if not cleaned propperly,
it would definatly be full of the tiny springtail like bugs...
the more I read the more I see how silly this housefly idea was :roll: 

Danyal: I have yet not seen /heard of live blood worms at petstores. 
But they have been in Iceland, I have heard of them...

I don't know if there is a ''bait'' shop here, but I found some selling
maggots and earthworms on the internet... 
I will check it out. 
How small do the maggots have to be?


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## stchupa

*Confused*

I am somewhat confused as to how you were able to aquire mealworms, (not to mention the frogs) but no other insects. I don't want to get too much into depth :idea: :?:


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## Vicky Rut

As I have said before, the frogs were
a very suprise gift, from friends, (I was really shocked actually).
They got them from a petstore that whises not to inform me where from they got them.
Confusing yes. 
The mealworms seem to be easy to get but pricy.
I found 3 petstores supplying them in the Reykjavík area.

I bought several to cultivate for my hornedfrogs. 
Each worm costed me 0.4$ / 0.3euro / 30ISK.
I do not know how they got here to begin with but I am glad they are here.


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## Grassypeak

Welcome to the forum Vicky!

Two ideas for you. 
•	Since you have access to meal worms why not set up a culture so that you can harvest tiny little ones. The leucs may go for them
•	Perhaps you can track down whoever it is that is supplying mealworms to the pet stores. If you explain your predicament they may be able to get you some very small ones (less than 1cm) This will at least buy you some time.

Hopefully they are eating the springtails for you. There is quite a bit of info on culturing springtails on this board, so if they are springtails you may at least have something to keep them going until your meal worm cultures come up to speed. Starting a meal worm culture will definitely be to your benefit since they cost so much, and it sounds like that is what your horned frogs are eating.

Good luck. I have lecus as well. They are great little frogs. Once you fatten them up, and get them settled in, you will be amazed at what an attitude these little guys have.


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## Vicky Rut

Grassypeak said:


> Welcome to the forum Vicky!


Why thank you very much 



Grassypeak said:


> Two ideas for you.
> •	Since you have access to meal worms why not set up a culture so that you can harvest tiny little ones. The leucs may go for them





Vicky Rut said:


> The mealworms seem to be easy to get but pricy.
> I found 3 petstores supplying them in the Reykjavík area.
> *I bought several to cultivate for my hornedfrogs. *


As you see I have already started a colony of mealworms and 
may I add with good success 

How ever your idea for me answeared this question I asked earlier in this thread.


Vicky Rut said:


> I do have smaller mealworms, do you think I should try those atleast?


Do you feed yours tiny mealworms?
Does anybody here do that?



Grassypeak said:


> •	Perhaps you can track down whoever it is that is supplying mealworms to the pet stores. If you explain your predicament they may be able to get you some very small ones (less than 1cm) This will at least buy you some time.


Saddly I have been down that road without much success, I was looking for crickets
for my hornedfrogs, but could not find the person who the mealworms orginated from in the first place. Very odd that species as horned frogs or other more comon amphibians 
are legal to import, but food sources for them are not. 



Grassypeak said:


> Hopefully they are eating the springtails for you. There is quite a bit of info on culturing springtails on this board, so if they are springtails you may at least have something to keep them going until your meal worm cultures come up to speed. Starting a meal worm culture will definitely be to your benefit since they cost so much, and it sounds like that is what your horned frogs are eating.


Yes I hope so too, atleast they are alot more active after the springtail like 
creatures entered their shoebox  
I am very hopeful they are hunting for food.



Grassypeak said:


> Good luck. I have lecus as well. They are great little frogs. Once you fatten them up, and get them settled in, you will be amazed at what an attitude these little guys have.


Thank you , I already find them quite facinating in their little shoebox plastic container :lol:
can't imagine what they will be like in a propper vivarium!!!


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## doncoyote

Here's a thread ->http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11361 <- that has a bit of info on a Berlese funnel - a way of getting small bugs out of leaf litter, moss, etc. It may be a little early in the season for you (lots of stuff may still be dormant or just eggs), but given your success with the moss and the springtails the funnel might be worth trying. Best of luck!


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## Grassypeak

Vicky,

Please keep us up to date we’re all pulling for you!


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## bluedart

Very much so! I just read through this, and am wishing you luck. Here is a small list of smaller insects which you may or may not be able to find in your area. And, remember, if you're out and about looking in the woods, and you see small beetles, see if you can find their larvae too (they often look like mealworms). But, here are some things you should look for:

*Springtails (looks like you've already found some! Now try culturing them. You may be able to collect more from outside by placing some pieces of moist charcoal outside by the area you collected your moss from)
*Rice Flour Beetles (aka Confused Flour Beetles)
*Baby spiders
*Field Sweepings (just do it!)

There are many opportunities in the wild for insects. Aphids and similarly sized insects are great! If you can find moths, they work too! (be wary of catepillars, though)

There are many dealers in the US which have permits to ship overseas, and they would be worth contacting about many of these feeders. Good luck, and keep us posted!


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## Grassypeak

Vicky, As far as the baby meal worms go; no, I have not fed them to my leucs before. I was just offering a suggestion for you to try. The usual recommendation, which I believe Corey already mentioned, is to offer the frogs food no larger than the distance between their eyes. I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen meal worms that small but I’m sure they start out smaller still.


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## EDs Fly Meat

I am surprised that fruit flies even Drosophila melanogasters are not availbale. They are such a harmless insect. Also, go to pet stores and look at their seed selection. Lots of beetles and their larva will no doubt be in the seed. Look close, you'll find them.
Dave


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## Guest

If you skipped over doncoyotes post, go back! That's what I was going to suggest.

You just scrape up a bunch of leaf mold, and place it in a plastic funnel that's in a jar, and put a desk lamp pointing down very close at it. The heat and light should drive a bunch of stuff down to the jar.

However you do it, collecting is your best bet short term. Look under boards and rocks for tiny bugs etc. Also I'm sure you have springtails there, and you can get a culture going once you find enough.


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## Vicky Rut

Thank you DanConnor I did indeed try something similar
to the funnel (got the idea from the funnel page) 
And it worked well, also the university tip was a great one and
paid off  I got some fruitflies!!! 
They can fly but hey, it's fruit flies to cultivate 
I didn't get much thoug so the froggies are going to have to
make doo with the icelandic bugs I found for them untill I get
enough offsprings from the fruit flies.









I am very worried about the froggies though...
They seem to be eating the springtails (always snapping at somthing in the moss)
but boy are they skinny!
Are there any types of bugs that fatten these guy's more up than other?
Here are pics so you see what I mean...

























What can I expect? Do they look like they are dying?


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## dmartin72

They are definitely skinny, but I have seen skinnier frogs recover...especially if they have an appetite. I would just keep finding whatever bugs you can (the smaller the better) and keep feeding them! You're doing great.


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## KeroKero

Just keep feeding them whatever you can find!

With the flies, cooling them down in the fridge will help you out with feeding them... slows them down. BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS! You can easily kill them if you leave them in there for too long. I don't remember how long is a good amount, as I don't do this often.

Another good idea when you get the flies started (fliers are a pain!) is you can feed out the larvae as well! There are details about this if you search this section, but here is a summary of what I do...

I set up a culture that has media wetter than what I usually make - this has the larvae climb the sides of the container, easily scraped off with the straight edge of a knife, or a small rubber spatula. The frogs LOVE these, and they are excellent to fatten up frogs as well. Plus they don't fly 

The other way is to scoop out the media that has the larvae in it, and in a very fine screen sifter (like for flour) gently rinse the media off the larvae with water.


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## booboo

They are not too skinny not to worry yet.

My biggest suggestion: feed as much wild stuff as you can until you can get a good amount of fruitfly cultures going. You may be icelands big breeder!

Make sure to make cultures and not to just feed off what you have.


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## Ed

In the dark ages before the ff revolution, Zoos did indeed feed tiny mealworms out to the dart frogs. The mealworms were sorted using a fine media like flour and screens of different sizes. 

Ed


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## pa.walt

maybe you could try waxworms. they come tiny and they don't have the hard covering on top, (did that make any sence, can't spell either)
also go over to dendroworld ask them these questions. they are from the u.k. 
lots of luck with the luecs.
since you are in iceland are you in the armed forces and are stationed there.


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## phyllomedusa

Hi vicky,
look for spider egg cases (i dont know of any highly venomous spiders in iceland but i may be wrong), Ive never seen frogs pass up freshly hatched spiders. Another food would be silverfish(maybe firebrats in your area?). You may need to catch houseflies and pull off a wing( sounds horrible but its a good food for the frogs). Basically anything that is small enough and moves (that doesnt sting) is potential food.



Hope this helped,
Sean


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## CTM75

*Good luck!!!*

PLs let us know how everything is progressing. I have my fingers crossed!


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## Vicky Rut

Helloue again 

*CTM75:*The little ones seem to be doing well, one of them is even putting on a bit
of weight, just a bit though  

*dmartin72*That's good too know, thank you for the suport, most needed!

*KeroKero:* thank you for the frigde tip, it helps alot 
The ff are already breeding in that tiny container I got them in and are more,
I found a recipe on the net for a ff media that I was going to cultivate them on.
If I were too feed the larva, where would I put them  
on the moss, stone or maybe root/driftwoodthingie? 

*Ed: *Really, intresting, I will indeed check this out since I have heeps of
tiniest mealworms! 
About the grainbugs, I have seent these beetle like creatures, yetblack, 
2mm/ 1/16'', antennas, and a really long nose that kinda sucks up stuff,
can any one tell what they are from this desciption since I do not have a picture.?!?
While I have your attension I'd like to ask you  
Are there any possibilities of bugs making it to Iceland if you were to ship me some? 
(maybe if I am anoying enough I can get premission to import from the ministry of agriculture)

*pa.walt:* Please don't take this the wrong way, but I have written more than once
that *we do NOT have feeding incects avaialbe in Iceland*, so no, I can not try waxworms. I am not trying to be mean at all  
Nope not in the US armed forces, I'm just a local 

*phyllomedusa:* Nah don't think there are any poisonos spiders around 
Thanks for the tip, I think I'll try it  I tryed the house fly bit and they didn't like
them at all  the fly I tormented just keept walking around the area for 3 day's untill
I took it out coz it was getting on my nerves 
but Silverfish! Really! I would never have guessed!


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## ~Fluff~

Vicky Rut said:


> About the grainbugs, I have seent these beetle like creatures, yetblack,
> 2mm/ 1/16'', antennas, and a really long nose that kinda sucks up stuff,
> can any one tell what they are from this desciption since I do not have a picture.?!?



Sounds like a weevil. Glad to read the little guys are doing well. Good luck.


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## KeroKero

I put them on a "dish" like a yougart or margerine lid... very shallow so the frogs can see in. AFter a couple feedings, the frogs get really excited about you putting the dish in and will come running (hopping?) for the food.


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## Ryan

Its awesome the effort you are putting into saving these frogs! I know so many people wouldnt do it and its sad, but hearing your story is great! I hope you good luck, and that your frogs do great!

Ryan


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## Dendrobait

I've been observingthe thread with interest. But what about supplements? Is it possible for the frogs to go without additional calcium/vit D3 for the long term?


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## Vicky Rut

Ryan said:


> Its awesome the effort you are putting into saving these frogs! I know so many people wouldnt do it and its sad, but hearing your story is great! I hope you good luck, and that your frogs do great!
> 
> Ryan


 well thank you 
Though I hope you guy's don't think I am some super froggie saver,
I just want my pets to live sort of and hava a nice life with me 
I am confident that many would do the same if they were 
given such cute little critters like my leucs are 


KeroKero said:


> I put them on a "dish" like a yougart or margerine lid... very shallow so the frogs can see in. AFter a couple feedings, the frogs get really excited about you putting the dish in and will come running (hopping?) for the food.


Ahh ofcourse silly me, I have been doing that with the tinie mealworms :lol: 
though those tend to crawl out  
But your descripsion on them hopping to the dish is so true,
coz one of them keeps sitting by the dish (I keep it in the tank) like he's
waiting for more or something of the kind I end of hearing a ''his'' voice in my head
''hey lady! When are those worms coming? I'm waiting here, helloue!!!'' :lol: 



Dendrobait said:


> I've been observingthe thread with interest. But what about supplements? Is it possible for the frogs to go without additional calcium/vit D3 for the long term?


Well those are not illegal to import, YAY! 
Everything that is basicly dead is easy  And such supliments are too,
I use them for my horned frogs, though I have been out for some time and
the darts havn't had any from me yet... 
I think I will end up with ordering it from one of your sponsors since my store
here isn't in any hurry to import more (they are out too) and 
my fruitflymedia is taking for ever to come so I could just order them both at the same time 

For some new news one of them is gobbling up the tiniest ever mealworms (thanks ed)
I am having trouble knowing if they are both eating, I can tell them apart but they are 
rather shy and tend to jump away when I come closer to see which one is eating... 
Hope it is both though....
Here's a silly quiestion that I could probably look up if I just hit the search button,
are Leucs timid by nature or are mine just nervous?



~Fluff~ said:


> Sounds like a weevil. Glad to read the little guys are doing well. Good luck.


Ahh thank you, I looked the word (for it is called elephant rump in Icelandic) up and found pictures and descripsions and
as far as I can tell it is a granary weevil _(Sitophilus granarius),_ 
can I feed those, they are quite crusty and really hard to squish,
can they be safe to eat?


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## Dendrobait

Doubt they will take the adults...hmm anyone have any ideas for getting at the larvae? Cutting open grains of rice or whatever to find them would take a long time.


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## Vicky Rut

But they are only 2mm/ 1/16'', I could fit two or three between their eyes...
We don't have them in rice (never heard of that sort of pest) 
I only saw them two years ago in my gerbil food, never again 
(been keeping gerbils since 1998) 
it gets quite cold here  These kinda stuff just die in the 
cold storage rooms at the toll stoping hope I'll find some though,
I was thinking of using some of the gerbil food and puting it in a warm place,
maybe some egg's made it though and will hatch!


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## Ed

snip "as far as I can tell it is a granary weevil (Sitophilus granarius), 
can I feed those, they are quite crusty and really hard to squish, 
can they be safe to eat? 

I use these and they are well accepted by everything I offer them to as a food item. 
The only downside to them is that they are slow to culture and can be hard to seperate from the grain. I use a deep grain bed and place a small funnel in it with the bottom of the funnel stoppered at the end. The weevils fall into the funnel making it easier to collect. 

Ed


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## Vicky Rut

Just to keep ya all informed 

I can tell the froggies apart now,
they are now ''the one thats gaining weigth'' and ''the one that's loosing weigth''
crap, doesn't seem to be eating at all poor little thing, and he's sooooo much
skinnier than he was before. 

Don't know what to do, decided to seperate them so the shy skinnier one
could, I don't know have peace to look at his food with out eating it :roll:

The bold one seems to be doing okay and I hope he will be okay 8)

One question, if only one of them were to make it, how social are they?


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## dmartin72

You need to act quickly, but I would try force feeding.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... +gluconate


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## Rain_Frog

Just a suggestion, Vicky, have you considered just getting a jar with some molding fruit in it and let it sit outside in the warmth? That ALWAYS attracts mass amounts of wild fruit flies and other insects. You can also bury fruit/veggies in the soil to attract more insects which you can place the rotten mess over a funnel.

Oh, if you have a rose garden or peonies, take a good look at the older, dying flowers. I am meaning to try this, but there are dozens of tiny bugs that are feeding on the nectar and the decaying petals.


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## Vicky Rut

Rain_Frog said:


> That ALWAYS attracts mass amounts of wild fruit flies


just to clarify, I live in Iceland, it was minus 7degrees celsius last weekend
there are no wild fruitflies.

But yes as I said before, I have tryed the funnel thingie and it worked well,
but though now I have plenty of food, one of the froggies doesn't eat.



Rain_Frog said:


> Oh, if you have a rose garden or peonies, take a good look at the older, dying flowers. I am meaning to try this, but there are dozens of tiny bugs that are feeding on the nectar and the decaying petals.



Ahh nice one, I will try that when it gets warmer 
Though I don't have any garden my self there are plenty of wild flowers I
could check out, thank you!

dmartin72, thanx very much for the link, I wasn't sure if one would
force feed such a tiny frog, this helpes alot! Hugs!


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## Ben_C

You should also be able to find Collembola all over...although collecting may be tough. Maybe try a berlese trap? Not sure how it would work at -7 degrees though...
If you do have flowers, definitely check them as Rain_Frog suggested. You should be able to find some Thrips in the live flowers eating pollen.
I hope this helps,
B


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## Vicky Rut

Thanks BenC, I have indeed already found some collembola a.k.a. springtails,
or atleast I think they are springtails :lol: doesn't matter since the frog likes em 8)
I was looking up on the internet about Iceland bug life and no wonder I'm not
finding the bugs you all are talking about :lol:
_*Alot of useless information*_ :twisted:
_don't you just love wikepedia_
There are only 1.300 known bugspecies here and around 1.100 of them are endemic!
1.300 being rather low compaired with other countries. 
There are about 925,000 known species in the world.
During the last Ice Age almost all of Iceland was covered by permanent snow and glacier ice. 
This explains the low number of living species.
another fun fact is that there are no native reptiles or amphibians in Iceland.

It was only -7degrees celsius _(19.4 deg. F)_ last weekend for a short period of time,
but it is warmer now, I was only bitching sorry 
At least I have 1.300 insects to choose from, quite a few of those will be suited for
PDF's and I have my flying fruitflies so things are going really well I would say 8)


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## Grassypeak

Vicky,

Can we get an update? How is everything going?


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## Vicky Rut

Hi 
Thanks for asking!

As you can see in my signiture I lost one frog, 
the one that wasn't eating, I force fed him but it was 
to late and the poor fellow was terrible skinny,

The surviving frog eats and eats all day, fruitflyes, baby mealworms
and loads of stuff I'm finding outside, still not gaining any weight though...

Could it be some sort of a parasite?
Or am I not feeding enough?
I only put stuff in there once a day and there alway's are some
bugs around when I feed next since I keep him in a smal space 
so it's easier for him to find the food, don't want it to be to challinging
since he's skinny I feel he gets enough exersize getting the fruitflies since
they actually fly all over his cage and he has to put in alot of effort to get them...

Do you guy's maby think I should try feeding twice?
Or is the frog simply sick? Though it doesn't look sick, since
it is very active and stuff... but then again, these two are the first
leucomelas I've ever seen with my bare eye's, what do I know
about healty looking Leucs


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## Grassypeak

Vicky,

I’m sorry to hear that you lost one, but it is great that you have managed to organize so many different food items for the remaining frog. It is possible that the remaining frog has parasites. Try e-mailing Dr. Frye about the situation. I don’t know how much money you want to invest in this frog that was given to you, but Dr. Frye may be able to tell your local Vet what dosage of worming powder is appropriate. I've included a web page with his e-mail.

Good luck, and please continue to keep us updated. 

http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com/page3.htm


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## Vicky Rut

Ahh thank you, 
I think money is not a issue since I can not hop out and buy a new one,
so I doo wan't to do everything in my power for this one to live
a happy life, shame he won't have company though...

I will try to email this doctor this evening, it is okay for just anyone
to email to him? 
(is it not rude or something since I did not purchase this frog from him?)


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## Grassypeak

Vicky,

He seems to be a pretty nice guy. Since you are not in the States, I don’t think he can send you medicine, but he may be willing to tell you, or your vet the appropriate medicine and dosage for your frogs. 

Good luck.


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## Vicky Rut

Thank you for giving me advice on contacting him,
he is very nice indeed, I will be checking if my vet (or any vet) does
fecial samples, if they do I will send them some fresh poo 

Though I will be leaving for Denmark this sunday I am afraid the collecting
of the sample will have to avait untill I get back, he seems happy
and active I only hope I am not screwing things up by waiting 

I will also increase the supplements I am giving, Dr.Frye did worry about
that, as this frog hasn't had any supplements for many months untill recently
in mycare so he may well fatten up soon with the help of all the extra nutriens
he is getting now from the repticalstuff I bought of the internet 

Thanks again for the intrest, alway's helps to discuss issues like this 

Huggles
Vicky


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## elmoisfive

I took the opportunity to reread all 5 pages of this thread and the thing that strikes me the most is how this situation brought the best out of many board members. A lot of useful and a few impractical suggestions posted on yet not one individual said anything negative or condescending in the process. Given all the angst about how the board was becoming negative in its treatment of newcomers, this thread at least demonstrates a better side of DB.

Just an observation and good luck with that remaining leuc Vicky!

Bill


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## omiga13

Hello vicky Im agree with elmoisfive, this forum try to help you giving you lots tips to keep alive your frog. My situation was kindly da same with one of my pumilios, but this was at the beginning! When you started a FF culture , you will have at any time FF! all become easy !

Keep doing , you are doing the best, God see does kind of thing!!!


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## Rain_Frog

> I took the opportunity to reread all 5 pages of this thread and the thing that strikes me the most is how this situation brought the best out of many board members. A lot of useful and a few impractical suggestions posted on yet not one individual said anything negative or condescending in the process. Given all the angst about how the board was becoming negative in its treatment of newcomers, this thread at least demonstrates a better side of DB.
> 
> Just an observation and good luck with that remaining leuc Vicky!


Its a sign of things to come Bill :wink:


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## Vicky Rut

Yes indeed 
Folks have been extremly helpful!
It's really wonderful and I have had so much help!

Here are pics taken yesterday of the remaining froggie
























It has gained a bit weight, the legs and arms tell the most
since they were soooooo much worse :shock: 
My best friend baby sitted it while I went to Denmark and
named it Örvar, so now it has a male name though I've never heard it croak :lol:

My Denmark trip was really really useful for ickle Örvar since
I managed to smuggle a bit more live food source into the country 
My first step into the criminal carrier :shock:
But hey! Örvar needs some varity during winter :roll:

I got small locustes, small cricket thingy and some field crickets I think,
and flightless fruitflies, that look like hydei, not sure though...
all names in danish and hard for me too know excatly what it is...
So when they breed I can feed the tiny babies to Örvar and the bigger
babies to my other amphibians YAY!!!

I checked out some darts there but only found some auratus and azereus...
was very tempted by them but I think I should get a better hang on leucs before
I try another species, would have been nice to get a Leuc companion for him though...


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## Grassypeak

Vicky,

Did you get a fecal exam done on him? Also, I noticed that you are using Reptical. Are you using Herptivite as well? He should be getting both. The Reptical is a calcium source. The Herptivite is a multi vitamin. Both are important.


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## Vicky Rut

Yes I am using both as well as dendrocare 

I did not send a fecial sample since the problem is most likely
under-supplementation, the supplement were not available here in 
petstores, so I had to wait for my internet order, 

























but now I am using these 3 supplement so hopefully Örvar will be okay 8)

My other amphibians are also getting this stuff
which I trust is all in order?

Here are two pics of the poor dead one :shock:
Then you can see the diffrence, the living one reached simular skinniness
but fattened upp to the pics in my previous post...


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## Vicky Rut

What are your opinions on adding a second Leuc?

I heard of a guy that got import licence on darts! Amazing!
And leucs might be one of the species coming...


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## glowfrog

I would say if possible have a fecal run on the one you have, and let him bulk up a little more....

If you got him a friend I would also quarantine the other for a while before putting them together. This would give your first one some time to gain a little weight, and you can also keep an eye on the second to make sure he's healthy and everything appears normal. 

I personally love watching my frogs interact, it is one of my favorite aspects of the hobby, so I'd say go for it!!

Just be sure to take your time and do it right. 

Good Luck Vicky!!!


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## Vicky Rut

glowfrog said:


> I personally love watching my frogs interact, it is one of my favorite aspects of the hobby, so I'd say go for it!!


Really 
I wouldn't get it right away though, it isn't expected to arrive (if they will) any time soon...
So I doo hope mine will indeed be fatter.
I don't mind having just one, but was worried about his social thingy, u know?
Are leucs social beings? 

One quiestion, when you all have had a fecial run,
has salmonella ever come up?


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## Grassypeak

I don’t believe any one looks for it. It is a normal part of amphibian, reptile and bird intestinal flora/fauna. It may or may not be there without causing the frogs any problems. As far as I know, the vet techs have to use selective culture media to find Salmonella, and you would have to request this. Simply testing once does not indicate that the animal doesn’t carry Salmonella, as they don’t always shed it when they are infected. Frogs can also pick Salmonella up from the environment. You are probably better off using clean husbandry practices to protect yourself, your family and your friends than worrying about the frogs carrying it. Just assume that they do, keep everything clean and don’t let any young children be exposed to anything that has been in or around a frog tank.


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## KeroKero

A note on the "social beings" while these guys do show a lot of interaction behaviors, they aren't "social" in the way we think of as humans (which also applies to other animals that have group social structures... wolves, porpoises, lions, etc - critters whose health and mental well being suffers when kept solitary) so these frogs are perfectly fine being kept alone - their human keepers suffer more from them being alone due to the feelings we apply to them :roll: (If we're happier with others, then they'd be happier with other! - this is not true).


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## Vicky Rut

Ahh thanks KeroKero, this is excatly the answear I was looking for 
I feel I am not ready for another but was worried what kinda impact it might have on
him, like it would inflict say gerbils, I would never house a gerbil alone but a hamster does fine alone 8)

Grassypeak, I am not worried about catching salmonella from the frog at all 
I keep things clean and wash my hands after cleaning, this goes for all my critters...

...what worries me is that there is a law about reporting salmonella to the 
goverment if it gets detected be it in a dog or a chicken, the Icelandic goverment is
quite salmonella paranoid and wants all animals detected with it termenated, hence I 
was worried if I would have a fecial exam done here, would they come knocking on the
door wanting my froggie...
But if it is as you say it is, I should not have to worry 
I will only ask for a parasite exam? Right?


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## Frogger 415

Vicky , sent you a PM...... There must be ants in your area , try them and see if your froggy will go for it .


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## Vicky Rut

Thank you very much for looking 
and for the ant tip 

Unfortunally I've never seen an ant here, 
I havn't checkt if they might live somewhere here in Iceland
though I higly doubt it, I could check.
I have some frutiflies now and springtails
Örvar seems to be doing fairly well with that,
I am also expecting some pin head crickets soon in my culture
so I think we are alright foodwhise at the moment 
But thank you!

Huggles!
And very happy frogging!
Vicky


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## Frogger 415

Great Vicky ! Glad you were able to get a constant food source going . Sorry you lost one of the little guys , but at least you saved thr other one ... way to go :mrgreen:


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## Vicky Rut

Yes I am quite happy  thank you!
I even have so much fruit flies extra that I donated alot to a petstore
here that got some PDF's for the first time last week :lol:
They were really thankful


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## Frogger 415

EXCELLENT ! 8)


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## Vicky Rut

well I need your help again 
the problem is that I got some sublements from a friend that ''smuggled'' them
to the country, just a bit untill I could get my order of my own stuff online.
Well the order came ages ago but it is stuck in customs.
this is a letter they gave me to send to the makers of the sublements...



> TO WHOM IT CONCERNS
> 
> All import of feeds and foods to Iceland under customs tariff 2309 must from the producer/packer comply with EU regulations on the matter, certified by declarations:
> 
> 1. Declaring the origin of rawmaterials. Western-Europe and North-America preferred.
> 2. Declaring the sanitary procedures in production, packing and handling (method of sterilization, autoclavation etc.). A health certificate declaring the absence of salmonella and enterobacteriaceae, signed by an official veterinarian must follow each shipment (Commission Decision 94/309/EC with annexes A-D, depending on the type of animal derivatives used in petfood).
> 3. Declaring the ingredients and chemical composition.
> 
> Please be avare that it is prohibited to use growth promotors (antibiotics, hormones etc.) in feedingstuffs in Iceland.
> 
> All the above information will be treated as confidential and intended for official control purposes only.
> 
> Furthermore information about producer and seller must be supplied, i.e. Name, Address, Telephone- and faxnumbers etc.
> 
> 
> All documents - declarations, invoices etc. - concerning feed that is imported to Iceland must have the same name and number



I've been trying to contact the internet vender that sold me this stuff since early june,
but without any luck. So what I was wondering if some of you could read the list of ingrediens of the products for me and type them here?
I would be most gratful :mrgreen: since I am not a firm but an induvidual it is
That might actually be enough  Or atleast it's worth a try 
The products in question are these:
























So if anyone out there has a little time to do this I would be very thankful


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## Frogger 415

Vicky , The only one I know about is the calcium.... you use it to dust the fruit flys , As I said before I started using ants and I now feed ants 90% of the time . My frogs are nice and fat and they love them . To me it is easier to catch ants then to culture fruit flys . I highly recomend it ! I think it will be alot easier on you . Best of Luck John


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## Vicky Rut

Frogger 415 said:


> Vicky , The only one I know about is the calcium.


Great! Could you post the ingrediens here?


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## Frogger 415

Just calcium in powder form , instead of liquid .


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## c'est ma

Vicky,

Well the Herptivite ingredient list is pretty lengthy, so see if you can make out the words in these pics (click on them to make them bigger):



















The Rep-Cal is much simpler, but I stuck with photos for consistency  :



















Hope those are readable. Sorry, I don't have Dendrocare...


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## Vicky Rut

Yay! thank you!
Those are great c'est ma!

I'll save them to my computer right away 

Now if anyone could take a pic of Dendrocare aswell that would be so fantastic!
Sorry for all the trouble though  
Just hate not getting the products I paid for in June and I knew alot of you
are using them


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## Enlightened Rogue

Hi Vicky, go to Black Jungles web site click on catalog then food you will find a picture of Dendrocare there. Hope this helps, John


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## bluedart

Any new pics of the little guy?


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## Vicky Rut

Enlighted Rogue said:


> Hi Vicky, go to Black Jungles web site click on catalog then food you will find a picture of Dendrocare there. Hope this helps, John


That is excatly the picture I posted earlier 
I need a pic of the ingredience list, not the front, ether that or someone 
typing the list up for me :mrgreen: 

BlueDart, I am afraid to say he died this morning 
He was't gaining fullweigth like the pictures I've seen here,
so I would suspect that Dr.Frye was correct, that my frog
was suffering from undersupplimentsation... 
I can't help but get a lil bit angry at my vender for not replying to
my darn emails I started sending in June, don't think it would
have been to much problem to just mail me those ingrediencelists :roll:
poor little guy, only got suplements for almost a month 
It sucks, but if I will ever try darts again I sure will be prepared this time,
there was just to much time spent in figuring things out while little Örvar sat
and waited, under suplemented :roll: 
Just hope my friends don't get the bright Idea of buying me a new one since
this one died :shock:


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## bluedart

Vicky Rut said:


> [quote="Enlighted Rogue":1ulterz9]Hi Vicky, go to Black Jungles web site click on catalog then food you will find a picture of Dendrocare there. Hope this helps, John


That is excatly the picture I posted earlier 
I need a pic of the ingredience list, not the front, ether that or someone 
typing the list up for me :mrgreen: 

BlueDart, I am afraid to say he died this morning 
He was't gaining fullweigth like the pictures I've seen here,
so I would suspect that Dr.Frye was correct, that my frog
was suffering from undersupplimentsation... 
I can't help but get a lil bit angry at my vender for not replying to
my darn emails I started sending in June, don't think it would
have been to much problem to just mail me those ingrediencelists :roll:
poor little guy, only got suplements for almost a month 
It sucks, but if I will ever try darts again I sure will be prepared this time,
there was just to much time spent in figuring things out while little Örvar sat
and waited, under suplemented :roll: 
Just hope my friends don't get the bright Idea of buying me a new one since
this one died :shock:
[/quote:1ulterz9]

I'm sorry to hear that.
Just a note, probably too late, but you do realize that you probably could've simply bought Calcium Carbonate during your wait time... right?


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## Enlightened Rogue

Ok, lets try this again. Go back to Black Jungles web site and click on the picture of the Dendrocare, you will get a picture of the ingredients. John


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## c'est ma

John,

That seems a little harsh considering all the hoops Vicky has been jumping through to acquire what she needs, and the fact that she lost the frog...

And besides, isn't that a picture of the analysis of the amounts of each nutrient as opposed to an ingredient list, which lists the compounds by which the elements are provided? A subtle and perhaps somewhat redundant distinction, I know, but government agencies can be sticklers about this stuff.


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## Enlightened Rogue

I`m really sorry about that, Didn`t read fully read her last post., also I have Dendrocare and that is what they have listed as ingredients. John


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## Vicky Rut

Enlighted Rogue said:


> Ok, lets try this again. Go back to Black Jungles web site and click on the picture of the Dendrocare, you will get a picture of the ingredients. John


Sorry mate, didn't see that, should have checked.
It will definatly help since there is an email address on that pic I can mail for further infromation.
I have more frogs and toads that will benifit from the supplements.
Thanks for the support c'est ma, your post warmed my heart 



bluedart said:


> I'm sorry to hear that.
> Just a note, probably too late, but you do realize that you probably could've simply bought Calcium Carbonate during your wait time... right?


Please do point out to me were I could have bought it?
Would like to know if my frog died for nothing.


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## Vicky Rut

bluedart said:


> I'm sorry to hear that.
> Just a note, probably too late, but you do realize that you probably could've simply bought Calcium Carbonate during your wait time... right?


Gerðu það maður, viltu segja mér hvar ég kaupi þetta?


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## bluedart

I'm not trying to say your frog died for nothing... I'm sorry if that's how it sounded. It can be bought in health food stores, or anywhere that sells vitamin supplements.


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## Vicky Rut

Well I did give it some, from a friend that smuggled some 
stuff, sorry mate, I though you were an Icelander and knew where 
I could buy it  thats all, and I really did want to know...
I left my phone number in most petstores here to make them
call me incase they would ever get some thing similar in powdered form


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## bluedart

Vicky Rut said:


> Well I did give it some, from a friend that smuggled some
> stuff, sorry mate, I though you were an Icelander and knew where
> I could buy it  thats all, and I really did want to know...
> I left my phone number in most petstores here to make them
> call me incase they would ever get some thing similar in powdered form


You should've seen me going to all sorts of translation websites trying to translate that... haha.


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## Vicky Rut

don't worry it's just the same question I asked you in english,
man I was sure you had to be Icelandic, sorry for the mix up :lol:


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## bluedart

Vicky Rut said:


> don't worry it's just the same question I asked you in english,
> man I was sure you had to be Icelandic, sorry for the mix up :lol:


S'all good.


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## foxhunt006

I'm so sorry about your loss, Vicky! I just read through all 7 pages of your experience and I have to say that you've been an inspiration for me. Even though Orvar didn't make it in the end, I'm sure he had a much better life with you than he would have had with most people. It's really touching to see someone care so much for another living being.


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