# Dusting flies with whey/protein?



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Did a search on this and nothing came up really. Has anyone tried this before? Maybe as a way to help bring underweight frogs' weight back up? I'm thinking of something like Bob's Red Mill, which has no added extra ingredients besides lecithin (for emulsification mainly)










I guess the idea is that the powdered format will allow the whey/lecithin protein/lipid to be absorbed during digestion more easily, which would be desirable for underweight frogs that need a bit of help, or frogs with high energy demands like breeding frogs.


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## alyon7 (Jun 12, 2012)

Interesting idea I wonder if their bodies would be able to handle that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Handling the protein content isn't a problem as it is pretty easily digested and casein is often used as a reference protein when analyzing protein digestibility. 

Now there are some other concerns with the use of this product for fattening up the frogs beginning with the fact that while it is easy to digest, animals with severe weight loss tend to have issues with the kidneys and possibly the liver so adding a big slug of protein to their diet isn't necessarily a great idea. This can further stress the animals as the body doesn't have any way to store excess protein and instead converts it to sugars and fats (for metabolism and storage). Part of this process involves the deamination of the amino acids which the evolution of ammonia (in mammals it would generally be urea) which is where you get the stress on the kidneys and liver. 

Additionally there is a significant amount of cholesterol in the product and starvation can cause fatty liver issues and as a result "large" slugs of saturated fats aren't ideal in this case. 

It is generally better to supply as balanced a food source as possible for the reasons above, there are some more arcane potential issues but those are the two main ones. 

some comments 

Ed


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Hmmm I had not really thought about the cholesterol. I know most whey/protein supplements are incredibly high in cholesterol, but Bob's is actually fairly low. But then again, I have no frame of reference for how much cholesterol is in fruit flies (is there any data on this?)

Some comparisons between bob's and FF nutrition (% by weight)

Fruit Flies

Protein: 64%
Fat: 20%
Cholesterol: ??%
Carbs: ??%

Bob's Whey

Protein: 75%
Fat: 5%
Cholesterol: 0.075%
Carbs: 15%

SO not a lot more protein than FFs, so I don't think it would place a terrible burden on their kidneys -- especially if it's delivered as a dust on top of FFs (which is what I was imagining). Also Bob's is so low in fat relative to FFs, that I don't think it would really help frogs to "bulk up" more than FFs dusted with the conventional supplements...


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

you might have found a market for cricket flour manufacturers to target.

http://a.co/hgyXxws


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## Jbenedicta (Aug 22, 2016)

That's hilarious...now my thumbs could handle eating crickets. Just got to feed them as a fruit fly topping. Just like sprinkles on ice cream.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> SO not a lot more protein than FFs, so I don't think it would place a terrible burden on their kidneys -- especially if it's delivered as a dust on top of FFs (which is what I was imagining). Also Bob's is so low in fat relative to FFs, that I don't think it would really help frogs to "bulk up" more than FFs dusted with the conventional supplements...


When considering protein as a risk to kidneys and liver of anorexic animals, you have to consider the aggregate protein content not just the comparison between the two. Which is why I suggested that I wouldn't think it is an ideal addition since if the kidneys and/or liver are under stress the total protein intake is the problem. Now if you were using it in place of the flies then your analysis would be correct in its risk. 

As for the cholesterol, keep in mind again we are considering the aggregate total and not each as a separate source. Again the cholesterol content by itself isn't a concern but the flies do contain cholesterol and its a required nutrient for them (varies by diet and working out the numbers from a nmol/mg amount would be a pain right now) and given that anorexic animals are more prone (with the greater the anorexia the more probable there is dysfunction and more probable more severe dysfunction) 

If your going to go this route then you should finely grind it and cut it with the supplements to reduce the total amount hitting the system at one feeding and offer it as more than one small meal. 

some comments 

Ed


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## OllieNZ (Apr 6, 2012)

Ed said:


> some comments
> 
> Ed


Ed is there a particular food type that an underweight animal will have an easier time processing?
Or is it better to slowly up the overall food intake over a period of time to make sure there is not too much stress on the animals systems as it recovers?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

OllieNZ said:


> Ed is there a particular food type that an underweight animal will have an easier time processing?
> Or is it better to slowly up the overall food intake over a period of time to make sure there is not too much stress on the animals systems as it recovers?


First there really needs to be an evaluation to make sure that the frog is actually anorexic as many of the frogs in the hobby are obese, to morbidly obese and that has become the standard for a "healthy" body weight for many people in the hobby. 

If the frog is severely anorexic (limbs with muscle mass loss, prominent pelvic girdle combined with sunken sides and belly, then you need to worry about refeeding syndrome in addition to kidney and liver issues. If too many calories are ingested at once then the changes in electrolytes and insulin in the blood can cause the animal to crash and die. In this case the frog should be fed about half the amount a healthy frog can be fed otherwise the risk is to induce refeeding syndrome. 

In less anorexic animals, small meals a couple of times a day are more suitable as it allows the animal's system to get back on track. 

Now if the animal is anorexic due to things like coccidians, and/or overgrowths of commensuals, these problems will need to be addressed as they interfere with the uptake of nutrients (as does hypovitaminosis of A). 

Unless your going to be tube feeding the frog(s), the normal feeders are acceptable but if tube feeding them something like Oxbow critical care or carnivore care should be considered as it is easily absorbed and utilized. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

Ed said:


> F
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I did that once for a Red Eyed Tree Frog. It recovered and then crashed (died unexpectedly and overnight) several months later. Once again, hat's off for your wealth of information and knowledge, Ed. Good stuff here, I hope it helps others.


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## thumbnail (Sep 18, 2005)

Have not run into an issue that called for supplementing extra protein via whey. I do add other prey items to the mix to plump up frogs. My favorite feeders for this task is termites. I live in an area that there is zero chance of pesticides being used. Next to that aphids plus a few other insects fill the gap for weight gain. I usually serve these other feeder insects in a deli cup that is trimmed to have a lip that is a bit taller then a deli cup lid height. I add a few sprinkles of repashy cal. plus to the bottom of feeding bowl. The frogs readily take the bugs in the bowl leading to them consuming the powder in small amounts while feeding from bowl/tray.

Many factors can contribute to skinny frogs. Breeding frequency can dramatically reduce weight in frogs. Another can be stress related, be it from fresh importation(shipping and bad housing conditions) or other factors, which can make a dart go downhill fast. I know there is many other factors that can induce weight loss, but most of the time I get asked one of the following is the culprit. 

As mentioned above over breeding seems to be the most common. Next to that frequency and quantity of feeding seems to be a big factor. Finally stress ends up rounding off the main factors I run into. Stress from other frogs to even too much traffic in the room where the frogs are kept has major effect on your dartfrogs overall health. To help with the traffic problem around the viv. I recommend covering the rear and sides of the cage be it caulking with coco bedding or just a plastic barrier on three sides like you get for fish.I

Feeding your frogs can be a tricky thing for some people. Definitely when you have groups housed together. Observing your frogs at least every other day should give you a chance to catch health issues before they get out of hand. Offering a varied diet be it termites or bean beetles not only gives a diversity of insects, but also gives you an opportunity to look over the frogs without too much disturbance since it focuses the frogs to one area.


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