# False bottom or hydro balls



## frogster

Which is better for a 55 viv and why? I wanna do this the right way from the start. Thanks in advanced.


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## cschub13

Well there is no better way really depending on size in my opinion, but if you use egg crate with a drain it will be much lighter if you need to move it! I know from experience how heavy tanks can be with hydroton. I had to move a 29g tank a few weeks back and it weighed about 200lbs. Not fun!


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## DracheFrau

A false bottom will definitely be lighter and you can put gravel or something around it so you don't have to see it. I like hydroton because it looks nice, imo. But I don't have huge heavy tanks that I would ever need to move, just two smaller ones. If you plan on keeping the tank in the same spot, then it's up to you!


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## frogster

Thanks for the weight issue.I didn't realize how heavy the hydro was.How deep was the hydro in the 29?....


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## Brian317

I'll agree with DracheFrau. False bottom would be alot lighter if you had to move and really lighter on the shelf. I too personally like the look and features of hydroton, but it does add alot of weight. I use hydroton in all my builds. I recently moved and tore down a 55 viv I had hydroton in and it was A PAIN! Just weight your options and see what suits your needs.


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## cschub13

frogster said:


> Thanks for the weight issue.I didn't realize how heavy the hydro was.How deep was the hydro in the 29?....


About 3 inches. When it is fully absorbed with water it can be deceptively heavy!


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## Gamble

I say hydroton. Forget the false bottom.
You say u want to do it "right" ... right for you or right for the frogs?

Read this discussion:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ll-false-bottom-without-drainage-layer-2.html


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## GRIMM

Funny, cause I think hydroton is the ugliest and most unnatural looking stuff you can put in a tank. Different strokes i guess...

FB with a perimeter of aquarium substrate is what I will always use. Cleanest looking way to do things imo.


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## DracheFrau

frogster said:


> Thanks for the weight issue.I didn't realize how heavy the hydro was.How deep was the hydro in the 29?....


If you're using hydroton, most sources and things I have seen said at least 2 inches. Josh's Frogs has a nice blog entry about vivarium setup, including a nice picture of hydroton and substrate layers.


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## jeeperrs

Gamble said:


> I say hydroton. Forget the false bottom.
> You say u want to do it "right" ... right for you or right for the frogs?
> 
> Read this discussion:
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ll-false-bottom-without-drainage-layer-2.html


I like false bottoms because of the weight. You will enjoy not having as heavy of a tank if you have to move it. Also, the same amount of depth will hold more water in a false bottom.


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## Gamble

jeeperrs said:


> I like false bottoms because of the weight. You will enjoy not having as heavy of a tank if you have to move it. Also, the same amount of depth will hold more water in a false bottom.


True ... but like i said, thats a benefit for u, not the frogs.

U should use a biological filter in the tank. A false bottom does not provide that.

Read the link for that part of the discussion.


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## jacobi

Gamble said:


> True ... but like i said, thats a benefit for u, not the frogs.
> 
> U need a biological filter in the tank. A false bottom does not provide that.
> 
> Read the link for that part of the discussion.


I read the thread in the link. Why does a terrarium need a biological filter?


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## Gamble

jacobi said:


> I read the thread in the link. Why does a terrarium need a biological filter?


It doesnt "need" it per sey, but its much more beneficial to the frogs/tank than to not have it in my opinion. I am of the feeling that its benefits are often overlooked.

If youve read it, its explained on pages 2 & 3 of the link.


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## jeeperrs

I don't believe there needs to be such a large biological filter for a vivarium. My water doesn't touch the soil, so it never touches the frogs. I drain from the bottom of the tank, so a good amount of wastes is removed when I do drain it. This is just me and how I do it. Now, I would be all about a biological filtration system if we were doing a fish tank...but even then a lot of reefers don't like to use bioballs.


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## Gamble

jeeperrs said:


> I don't believe there needs to be such a large biological filter for a vivarium. My water doesn't touch the soil, so it never touches the frogs. I drain from the bottom of the tank, so a good amount of wastes is removed when I do drain it. This is just me and how I do it. Now, I would be all about a biological filtration system if we were doing a fish tank...but even then a lot of reefers don't like to use bioballs.


As i stated in the linked post, if you do not plan on using a water feature and the water in the false bottom isnt being recirculated into the tank then you are correct, a biofilter isnt really necessary.

But for those utilizing a water feature, then imo, a biofilter of some sort should be incorporated.

But thats the beauty of our hobby, everybody has their own way of doing things, and not one way is right or wrong as long as the frogs are healthy and able to thrive.


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## frogster

Thanks for info I didn't think of how much water the hydro absorbs.Also I was thinking of a false bottom and then doing the layers according to joshs frogs website.I'd like to do what's right for the frogs.So can anyone give me advice on what's best for the frogs? Thanks again everyone for all the replies.....


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## frogster

frogster said:


> Thanks for info I didn't think of how much water the hydro absorbs.Also I was thinking of a false bottom and then doing the layers according to joshs frogs website.I'd like to do what's right for the frogs.So can anyone give me advice on what's best for the frogs? Thanks again everyone for all the replies.....


I was busy wrote what i did and forgot to post,as I read everything I see the benefits of both.Then I see what is best for frogs.....


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## Gamble

frogster said:


> Thanks for info I didn't think of how much water the hydro absorbs.Also I was thinking of a false bottom and then doing the layers according to joshs frogs website.I'd like to do what's right for the frogs.So can anyone give me advice on what's best for the frogs? Thanks again everyone for all the replies.....


Are you planning on putting a water feature into the tank? If so, then take my advice.

If not, then take jeepers advice.


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## jacobi

Gamble said:


> It doesnt "need" it per sey, but its much more beneficial to the frogs/tank than to not have it in my opinion. I am of the feeling that its benefits are often overlooked.
> 
> If youve read it, its explained on pages 2 & 3 of the link.


Have you tested water from terrariums with hydroton and run comparisons to terrariums with false bottoms? I'm asking out of curiosity and desire to learn, not trying to argue!


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## Judy S

GRIMM said:


> Funny, cause I think hydroton is the ugliest and most unnatural looking stuff you can put in a tank. Different strokes i guess...
> 
> FB with a perimeter of aquarium substrate is what I will always use. Cleanest looking way to do things imo.


Check out the "Featherweight" product that Black Jungle sells--it is an expanded glass product (not a pretty color, but that can be disguised...)...and it is a terrific biological agent instead of the hydroton...


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## frogster

Judy S said:


> Check out the "Featherweight" product that Black Jungle sells--it is an expanded glass product (not a pretty color, but that can be disguised...)...and it is a terrific biological agent instead of the hydroton...


Thanks I'll check that out.........


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## frogster

Gamble said:


> Are you planning on putting a water feature into the tank? If so, then take my advice.
> 
> If not, then take jeepers advice.


Gamble do you have any pics or links to your vivs.Thanks


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## Gamble

jacobi said:


> Have you tested water from terrariums with hydroton and run comparisons to terrariums with false bottoms? I'm asking out of curiosity and desire to learn, not trying to argue!


I have not.
Maybe somebody else has?
If not, that would definitely be a good experiment!

I personally do not use false bottoms anymore, so i do not have any to test.

But i might set one up just for that reason!


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## Gamble

frogster said:


> Gamble do you have any pics or links to your vivs.Thanks


I only have one tank currently using hydroton w/ a waterfall.
All my other tanks are using gravel as a drainage layer until my protean euro vents come in next week.(i have 9 tanks coming)

Once i have them built (they will all have hydroton and a water feature), i will definitely post pics of them.


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## Gamble

Heres the one tank i have using hydroton and a water feature. It currently houses for Imitator Intermedius.























Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## djbn

Why not use a small version of both? Thats what i do and you get both the benefits of the bio filtration and the added water that can be stored in the false bottom. Either way a bottom drain comes in handy. Just make a false bottom, cover it with screen add hydroton cover that with a screen and you're good no matter what. Just make sure you make the false bottom strong enough to handle the weight. Extra supports are a most. This will be heavier but its the best option for your frogs.

2-3 inch false bottom
2 inches of hydroton


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## Gamble

djbn said:


> Why not use a small version of both? Thats what i do and you get both the benefits of the bio filtration and the added water that can be stored in the false bottom. Either way a bottom drain comes in handy. Just make a false bottom, cover it with screen add hydroton cover that with a screen and you're good no matter what. Just make sure you make the false bottom strong enough to handle the weight. Extra supports are a most. This will be heavier but its the best option for your frogs.
> 
> 2-3 inch false bottom
> 2 inches of hydroton


If i were to incorporate both; which IS a good idea, id reverse it and fill the bottom with hydroton and put the false bottom on top of that.

Reason being, beneficial bacteria must remain wet (submerged) to live. If not, it will die within 10min or so of drying out.

Im sure some could live if done on top of the egg crate, but not in the volume they would if they remained fully submerged on the bottom ... 

And by placing it on top of the egg crate, youre taking away space that could be used for soil and leaf litter, whereas if on the bottom, youre fully maximizing the limited space within the tank and still gaining the full benefit of doing what you speak of.


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## warlock

this just confuses me more.. 

as a new person.. i don't know which to do..


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## Gamble

warlock said:


> this just confuses me more..
> 
> as a new person.. i don't know which to do..


Lol ... its simple!
Are you going to use a water feature or not?
If using a water feature, use hydroton/featherlite ... if not, do a false bottom.


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## frogster

warlock said:


> this just confuses me more..
> 
> as a new person.. i don't know which to do..


I feel your pain


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## frogster

Gamble said:


> I only have one tank currently using hydroton w/ a waterfall.
> All my other tanks are using gravel as a drainage layer until my protean euro vents come in next week.(i have 9 tanks coming)
> 
> Once i have them built (they will all have hydroton and a water feature), i will definitely post pics of them.


Wowww 9 coming in cool.When you say water feature do you mean waterfall or just a small pond?


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## warlock

no water feature..


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## frogster

frogster said:


> Wowww 9 coming in cool.When you say water feature do you mean waterfall or just a small pond?


I gotta read better lol with the waterfall how do you prevent the pump from getting clogged or is it a self contained waterfall?


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## SWReptiles

I found something called grow stones. They work great. These come in a bag the size of 50 pounds of dog food. The bag that size weighs 10 lbs. Can be carried with on hand. A large bag like that cost me about $30


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## frogster

Are you using the grow stones in a pdf viv?Do you any pics of your viv or the stones?


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## Pumilo

Grow Stones are very similar to LECA but they are made of "puffed", aerated glass (expanded glass), instead of aerated clay. Basically the same thing as Black Jungle's Featherlight.


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## djbn

I'm getting ready to do a tank with a false bottom then hydroton method I just talked about. I'll post some pictures on here for you as soon as im done. Its really a good method and at the most it will cost you an extra $12. Money well spent if you ask me


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## Pumilo

djbn said:


> Why not use a small version of both? Thats what i do and you get both the benefits of the bio filtration and the added water that can be stored in the false bottom. Either way a bottom drain comes in handy. Just make a false bottom, cover it with screen add hydroton cover that with a screen and you're good no matter what. Just make sure you make the false bottom strong enough to handle the weight. Extra supports are a most. This will be heavier but its the best option for your frogs.
> 
> 2-3 inch false bottom
> 2 inches of hydroton





djbn said:


> I'm getting ready to do a tank with a false bottom then hydroton method I just talked about. I'll post some pictures on here for you as soon as im done. Its really a good method and at the most it will cost you an extra $12. Money well spent if you ask me


What is the point of this besides wasting 5 inches of tank space? Your water will still sit in the false bottom, unfiltered. If you are going to argue that it passes through the hydroton and is filtered that way, you must realize that the de-nitrifying bacteria will colonize your ABG mix, Clay substrate, or whatever substrate you choose to use, every bit as readily as it will colonize the hydroton.
Whichever method you choose, false bottom, LECA (hydroton), or Featherlite/Grow Stones (expanded glass), you will find that they are viable methods. But giving up 5 inches of space instead of 2 inches of space just does not add up.
So you are looking at 2 to 3 inches for a false bottom, 2 inches of Leca, average 2 inches of substrate, and then a possible 2 inches of leaf litter? That's 8 to 9 inches taken up for a method that does not seem to add anything that either a false bottom or LECA does not already do by itself.


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## Gamble

frogster said:


> Wowww 9 coming in cool.When you say water feature do you mean waterfall or just a small pond?


When i say water feature i mean both ... a waterfall and a small pond!


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## Gamble

frogster said:


> I gotta read better lol with the waterfall how do you prevent the pump from getting clogged or is it a self contained waterfall?


Im not sure, but thats a good question. Im not the one who built the tank i pictured. Ill have to ask next time i am at his house. As soon as i have the answer, i will share it with you all.

I think its seperated from the hydroton by a screen.


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## Gamble

Pumilo said:


> What is the point of this besides wasting 5 inches of tank space? Your water will still sit in the false bottom, unfiltered. If you are going to argue that it passes through the hydroton and is filtered that way, you must realize that the de-nitrifying bacteria will colonize your ABG mix, Clay substrate, or whatever substrate you choose to use, every bit as readily as it will colonize the hydroton.
> Whichever method you choose, false bottom, LECA (hydroton), or Featherlite/Grow Stones (expanded glass), you will find that they are viable methods. But giving up 5 inches of space instead of 2 inches of space just does not add up.
> So you are looking at 2 to 3 inches for a false bottom, 2 inches of Leca, average 2 inches of substrate, and then a possible 2 inches of leaf litter? That's 8 to 9 inches taken up for a method that does not seem to add anything that either a false bottom or LECA does not already do by itself.


I agree doug ... i also previously stated that it is taking from the usable space, which is why i suggested that if they are set on combining the two, then the hydroton (or whatever they choose to use) is better served below, instead of above the false bottom. If they are aiming for a 2in or 3in high false bottom, to make it 2 or 3 in of drainage material and then place the eggcrate over top of that, therefore preserving the usable space for soil and leaf litter.


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## jacobi

I think this conversation has the potential to be confusing to newbies, hey I've had terrariums for over 15 years and its confusing me 

I think we need to explain the purpose of a false bottom/hydroton layer, and take it from there. Its probably been mentioned a zillion times already, but no harm in mentioning it again.
The primary purpose of a false bottom/hydroton layer is to act as a drainage layer and prevent the substrate from becoming water logged, which causes all kinds of problems. There are a few schools of thought on the matter, personally I don't believe either way to be "better", rather a matter of preference and convenience. Personally I prefer a false bottom, I've found it to be less expensive, and I don't have leftover bags of hydroton to store in my small apartment. In regards to hydroton and other LECA I heard a rumour that production of the stuff will soon stop, I'd be interested in hearing more if anybody knows about it.

Aesthetically, as mentioned by Grimm and others, I am not a fan of the view of hydroton/LECA under the substrate. 

In regards to LECA/Hydroton acting as a biological filter, I am no expert on aquariums, but I can't see how hydroton would act as a biological filter. A biological filter has water passing through it containing fish wastes, said water is ultimately returned to the fishtank. Unless you were to have an external sump for your water feature in the terrarium, (which is the only way I incorporate most water features), and the water passing through your hydroton layer on the way to the sump, I can't see the hydroton acting as a true biological filter. Particularly with the soil substrate most terrariums use and the relatively heavy plant use. FYI I also use an external filter for such designs. I'd be interested in hearing more on the matter from those with experience in fish keeping.


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## djbn

Pumilo said:


> What is the point of this besides wasting 5 inches of tank space? Your water will still sit in the false bottom, unfiltered. If you are going to argue that it passes through the hydroton and is filtered that way, you must realize that the de-nitrifying bacteria will colonize your ABG mix, Clay substrate, or whatever substrate you choose to use, every bit as readily as it will colonize the hydroton.
> Whichever method you choose, false bottom, LECA (hydroton), or Featherlite/Grow Stones (expanded glass), you will find that they are viable methods. But giving up 5 inches of space instead of 2 inches of space just does not add up.
> So you are looking at 2 to 3 inches for a false bottom, 2 inches of Leca, average 2 inches of substrate, and then a possible 2 inches of leaf litter? That's 8 to 9 inches taken up for a method that does not seem to add anything that either a false bottom or LECA does not already do by itself.


Its just a combination of both. If you dont like the method no one said you or the OP had to use it. I was just telling him what I do. This type of build is mainly for people that want to have a nice water feature. Besides the benefits I've already said, there are several more. It makes it easier for you to have a small pump or even be able to hide a low water filter in your false bottom. Plus its alot better for your pumps and the water quality in two ways.
One the pump doesnt have to work as hard as it would if it were sucking water through straight hydroton and 2nd you dont have to worry about your pumps clogging because the water thats filling your water feature has already had the water run through 3 filters to keep the dirt out of the water. 2 screens and the hydroton. add a filter for water clarity and BOOM....awesome, great looking viv with no murky water...drain it once every 3 months instead of once a month 

Also worth mentioning that I'm doing this in a 75g tank... one or 2 more inches of layering isnt going to kill you if you're using a 55g or larger tank....


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## Niels D

I'm using the Hydroton method in combination with a filter pump. By adding Eleodea, a lot of snails and some Gammarus to the water it stays stable and clear for a long time. I only use this method for vivs with a water area though.


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## frogster

Gamble said:


> Im not sure, but thats a good question. Im not the one who built the tank i pictured. Ill have to ask next time i am at his house. As soon as i have the answer, i will share it with you all.
> 
> I think its seperated from the hydroton by a screen.


Thanks is like to know about it to avoid clogging the pump...


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## Pumilo

djbn said:


> Its just a combination of both. If you dont like the method no one said you or the OP had to use it. I was just telling him what I do. This type of build is mainly for people that want to have a nice water feature. Besides the benefits I've already said, there are several more. It makes it easier for you to have a small pump or even be able to hide a low water filter in your false bottom. Plus its alot better for your pumps and the water quality in two ways.
> One the pump doesnt have to work as hard as it would if it were sucking water through straight hydroton and 2nd you dont have to worry about your pumps clogging because the water thats filling your water feature has already had the water run through 3 filters to keep the dirt out of the water. 2 screens and the hydroton. add a filter for water clarity and BOOM....awesome, great looking viv with no murky water...drain it once every 3 months instead of once a month
> 
> Also worth mentioning that I'm doing this in a 75g tank... one or 2 more inches of layering isnt going to kill you if you're using a 55g or larger tank....


A 55 gallon tank is an average of 20 inches tall. That 8 to 9 inches is almost half the depth of the tank. As I and others have pointed out, there is no additional filtering benefit.
Of course you are absolutely free to post this method, but as people are looking for advice, I am also free to post the redundancy of combining 2 methods into one. I believe it is a waste of space and not a very efficient way to set up a viv.


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## warlock

i think i will just have to pick one method and just start the [email protected] thing.. 

on the false bottom..

how much space to you have from the wall of tank? 

is that where people just put gravel to fill in that space?


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## Pumilo

warlock said:


> i think i will just have to pick one method and just start the [email protected] thing..
> 
> on the false bottom..
> 
> how much space to you have from the wall of tank?
> 
> is that where people just put gravel to fill in that space?


To do this method you make your false bottom so that it will be about an inch from touching the front and the side walls. Attach your "feet" or standpipes to your eggcrate false bottom. Don't forget some center supports! Wrap the entire false bottom in fiberglass screen mesh. This will prevent any substrate from getting into that area. Set it in and temporarily weight it down with something. Fill in the outside inch gap with gravel. Dump in you substrate and remove your weight.


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## Gamble

Pumilo said:


> To do this method you make your false bottom so that it will be about an inch from touching the front and the side walls. Attach your "feet" or standpipes to your eggcrate false bottom. Don't forget some center supports! Wrap the entire false bottom in fiberglass screen mesh. This will prevent any substrate from getting into that area. Set it in and temporarily weight it down with something. Fill in the outside inch gap with gravel. Dump in you substrate and remove your weight.


To add to what Doug said:

Or you can use silicone to seal it against the glass.
The only issue is that if you have to take it apart, you will have to cut the silicone to free the eggcrate, but if you build a trap door to allow access to the pump then you shouldnt have to worry about taking the eggcrate out.

Ive never used gravel to fill the gaps, so i cant speak on its efficiency. Ive always sealed it with silicone.


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## Gamble

Niels D said:


> By adding Eleodea, a lot of snails and some Gammarus to the water it stays stable and clear for a long time.


Pardon my ignorance, but what are those things?

Snails? As in the freshwater, fully aquatic kind? (Ie mystery snails?)


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## Pumilo

Gamble said:


> To add to what Doug said:
> 
> Or you can use silicone to seal it against the glass.
> The only issue is that if you have to take it apart, you will have to cut the silicone to free the eggcrate, but if you build a trap door to allow access to the pump then you shouldnt have to worry about taking the eggcrate out.
> 
> Ive never used gravel to fill the gaps, so i cant speak on its efficiency. Ive always sealed it with silicone.


Hey Nick, the gravel method is simply if you want to completely hide the eggcrate and false bottom.
I usually do it as you said and make the eggcrate run all the way to the edge, then seal it off with silicone. On a couple of my builds I sealed it with clay. You can then hide that area with black contact paper, if desired.


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## Gamble

Pumilo said:


> A 55 gallon tank is an average of 20 inches tall. That 8 to 9 inches is almost half the depth of the tank. As I and others have pointed out, there is no additional filtering benefit.
> Of course you are absolutely free to post this method, but as people are looking for advice, I am also free to post the redundancy of combining 2 methods into one. I believe it is a waste of space and not a very efficient way to set up a viv.


I dont see a problem with combining the two. My issue is with the WAY they are combined.


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## jacobi

Gamble said:


> I dont see a problem with combining the two. My issue is with the WAY they are combined.


Its not a PROBLEM per se, it just turn a 55 gallon into a 25 gallon....


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## Gamble

jacobi said:


> Its not a PROBLEM per se, it just turn a 55 gallon into a 25 gallon....


I understand that, and i get what youre trying to do. Its a good idea. I just personally feel you can get the the same results in a more efficient way without having to sacrafice all that usable space. Id hate for you to put in all that hard work and then be unsatisfied with the end result ... but ... its your build brother, i want you to do whatever you feel suits your style and tastes and makes you happy. Thats all. 

Who knows, maybe itll work out better than you had planned. Keep us posted.

Good luck. I hope it turns out how you envision it


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## djbn

Gamble said:


> I understand that, and i get what youre trying to do. Its a good idea. I just personally feel you can get the the same results in a more efficient way without having to sacrafice all that usable space. Id hate for you to put in all that hard work and then be unsatisfied with the end result ... but ... its your build brother, i want you to do whatever you feel suits your style and tastes and makes you happy. Thats all.
> 
> Who knows, maybe itll work out better than you had planned. Keep us posted.
> 
> Good luck. I hope it turns out how you envision it


Thanks gamble! Its partly my fault, im kinda bad at explaining things. So ill just show you =) I have a thread going on my new 75g build and ill send you a link once I get to the substrate layering and filters/pump aspect of the tank. However, just to clear things up. I went and measure my old tanks hydroton layer and it was 5 inches anyway but you're really dont have to lose any space at all. Just take what you already planed for for drainage and keep the same total inches but instead of one part its two. 
Another thing when im talking about filteration Im meaning more of a physical filteration not biological. The reason for the hydroton being on top is that not all of it is intended to be submerged, only about half of it ever is but thats not a bad thing at all.

This is where aquarium knowledge comes into play. If any of you have ever kept a saltwater tank or exotic fresh water tank and have used bioballs in it you know that after awhile the bioballs become so overloaded with the beneficial bacteria that they (at a certain point) will actually start to put back nitrates and ammonia back into the water. This is why many reefers dont use bioballs at all. However, bioballs are a great thing to use as long as you water levels fluctuate. This means that the top bacteria is always drying up and making room for new "hungrier" bacteria. When your water level is high it will promote new growth and when your waterlevel is low it will make room.

However I will stop posting on this poor OP's thread as I see now that he'd rather just use one method. If any of you are curious to see what im talking about feel free to check out my thread on my build when I get to this area. 

PS im also keeping fish in my water feature, thus the need for clear water. However i think its important to keep the water quality high in any tank that has dart frogs


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## Pumilo

djbn said:


> Thanks gamble! Its partly my fault, im kinda bad at explaining things. So ill just show you =) I have a thread going on my new 75g build and ill send you a link once I get to the substrate layering and filters/pump aspect of the tank. However, just to clear things up. I went and measure my old tanks hydroton layer and it was 5 inches anyway but you're really dont have to lose any space at all. Just take what you already planed for for drainage and keep the same total inches but instead of one part its two.
> Another thing when im talking about filteration Im meaning more of a physical filteration not biological. The reason for the hydroton being on top is that not all of it is intended to be submerged, only about half of it ever is but thats not a bad thing at all.
> 
> This is where aquarium knowledge comes into play. If any of you have ever kept a saltwater tank or exotic fresh water tank and have used bioballs in it you know that after awhile the bioballs become so overloaded with the beneficial bacteria that they (at a certain point) will actually start to put back nitrates and ammonia back into the water. This is why many reefers dont use bioballs at all. However, bioballs are a great thing to use as long as you water levels fluctuate. This means that the top bacteria is always drying up and making room for new "hungrier" bacteria. When your water level is high it will promote new growth and when your waterlevel is low it will make room.
> 
> However I will stop posting on this poor OP's thread as I see now that he'd rather just use one method. If any of you are curious to see what im talking about feel free to check out my thread on my build when I get to this area.
> 
> PS im also keeping fish in my water feature, thus the need for clear water. However i think its important to keep the water quality high in any tank that has dart frogs


I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I have to correct misinformation when I see it. That's not how bio-balls and saltwater filtration work. I owned and operated Colorado Coral Farms for over 10 years and was also partners in an endeavor called Fragshop.com. I grew and distributed thousands of corals in my 10 years farming coral.
Bio-balls are extremely efficient at what they were designed for. They foster aerobic bacteria. Aerobic bacteria are extremely efficient at converting ammonia to nitrite. They are also very efficient at converting nitrite to nitrate. They can never eliminate the nitrate from your system. It takes anaerobic bacteria to break down and eliminate the nitrate. 
Lets look at a few definitions and why they matter for reef tanks.
Aerobic bacteria require oxygen to live. Anaerobic bacteria will only survive without oxygen. 

Ammonia is toxic to fish and corals. Nitrites are toxic to fish and corals. Nitrates, on the other hand, are simply an irritant to fish when they hit higher levels. This is why bio-balls work well in fish only systems. In a fish only system, the nitrates are periodically reduced through water changes which keeps them from being a problem. In a reef tank, however, nitrates pose more of a problem. They irritate corals more than they irritate fish. At around 40 ppm they can become problematic for some corals. Additionally, they will fuel algae growth. When you combine elevated nitrate levels with the intense lighting required for a healthy reef tank system, what you end up with is an "algae factory".

"Algae factory" is a term we used for reef systems with bio-balls, under-gravel filters, bio-wheels, power filters, or any well oxygenated filter system. Algae will quickly choke out corals and kill them so we have to find ways of reducing or completely eliminating the nitrates. To do that, we need to foster the growth of anaerobic bacteria AND limit the aerobic bacteria. Too much aerobic bacteria will do their job so well that any anaerobic bacteria cannot do enough to reduce the nitrates.

That is why reefers strip the bio-balls, under-gravel filters, power filters, and bio-wheel filters. Instead, we rely on deep sand beds, and/or live rock. As the oxygen rich water slowly diffuses through the live rock and/or deep sand bed, the aerobic bacteria at the surface will do their job to convert ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate. While doing this, they deplete the water of oxygen. If set up properly, the lower levels of sand and the inner core of the rock, will foster anaerobic bacteria that will reduce or completely eliminate the nitrate from the system.

It has nothing to do with old bacteria releasing nitrates and ammonia back into the system as it is impossible for them to remove any nitrate in the first place. It also has nothing to do with "hungrier" bacteria. It is about the conditions you supply to foster the growth of aerobic and/or anaerobic bacteria. Bio-balls are absolutely NOT a good thing in any reef tank long term. They can be beneficial for the first several months but then they should be removed, a couple handfuls at a time each week, until your sand and rock can handle the load. Otherwise, they invariably will become a problem in the future.

Now the problem here is that if you have fish in your vivarium, all of this "filtration" material is above the water. It only filters the water draining down through the substrate (which the substrate would have done anyway). There is still no filtration to take care of the ammonia and nitrite being released into the water from the fish.

Additionally, you claim that this will make for crystal clear water. Yet there is nothing in play to remove all the tannins that your substrate and leaf litter will add to the water. This system will still have water the color of iced tea. Basically, it will be "tadpole tea".

Further, you should be presenting this as an idea you wish to try. Instead, you are presenting it as a tried and true, proven system, that will be better for your frogs. As you have only built one other frog tank, and this one still in progress, you cannot possibly have compared it to the tried and true methods already in wide use.


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## jacobi

Doug, based on your knowledge and experience, what is your opinion on LECA acting as a biological filter in a vivarium?


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## Pumilo

Bacteria can and will grow on any solid objects, including clay substrate, Turface, and/or ABG mix. Therefore the water filtering through your substrate has as much potential to be filtered through your substrate, as it does through LECA. Of course with a false bottom, this is all above the water so it will not filter any standing water. If you use LECA _*instead of*_ a false bottom, it could provide some additional filtration, but putting it on top of a false bottom will negate that.
Personally, I'm a fan of a false bottom, BUT will readily concede that LECA or expanded glass (Featherlite) are also good, functional, ways to set up your tank.
To be clear, there is nothing inherently wrong with using 2 or 3 inches of false bottom, followed by 2 inches of LECA, then your substrate and leaf litter. The system will work. It is simply redundant and unnecessary. It wastes space better used for other purposes.


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## TURQ64

Since 'reefers' and a dislike for bioballs was mentioned, I use Hydroton, but I also have one 30g viv with Kaldnes fluidized bed media in place of the Hydroton..still an excellent media for good biological development, and also light. But, as a disclaimer, it's expensive as heck, but I already had several extra liters leftover from building some some freshwater tank sumps...disregard all of this if you aren't of a school that believes in bio activity..JME, Gary


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## frogparty

Nicely put Doug. Also remember that terrestrial amphibians don't excrete nitrogenous waste as ammonia so the need to mitigate the accumulation of nitrogenous waste is minimized, especially considering that plants and bacteria in the substrate will do it for you


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## djbn

Pumilo said:


> Now the problem here is that if you have fish in your vivarium, all of this "filtration" material is above the water. It only filters the water draining down through the substrate (which the substrate would have done anyway). There is still no filtration to take care of the ammonia and nitrite being released into the water from the fish.
> 
> Additionally, you claim that this will make for crystal clear water. Yet there is nothing in play to remove all the tannins that your substrate and leaf litter will add to the water. This system will still have water the color of iced tea. Basically, it will be "tadpole tea".
> 
> Further, you should be presenting this as an idea you wish to try. Instead, you are presenting it as a tried and true, proven system, that will be better for your frogs. As you have only built one other frog tank, and this one still in progress, you cannot possibly have compared it to the tried and true methods already in wide use.


Yes I've heard what you're are talking about as far as the bioballs before. However I wasnt really going into as much depth. Just trying to do a simple explanation here. However I do disagree with a few of your points. One being that the newer bacteria isn't "hungrier". This is actually true because of the bacteria's life cycle. Newer formed bacteria eats more because it wants to colonize an area to beat out similar competitors while older bacteria does eat as much because it is established. You can find that characteristic in almost all bacteria. Second, some believe that the alternating water levels in the bioball chamber does the same thing as replacing or swapping out the bioballs. 
Few more things, these are probably due to my lack of explaining in detail certain aspects of the system. One thing I probably should have mentioned is that I never really fill the tank directly with water. Its all provided by the rain system so it actually does go through all the layers. Also my water is free to move in and out of the water feature area. The walls of the water feature let the water travel freely meaning that it shares its water with the whole tank.
Finally, I know I stated this before but ill say it again. The physical filtration provided by the two screens and the hydroton is only for "large" material, it basically just ensures that no matter what you wont get a ton of stuff passing through into your false bottom. As for the "tagpole tea" or brown coloring of the water, that is taken care of by a small low water level carbon filter.....that does drastically improve water clarity.... I know i mentioned that in one of my post on here.

System in a nut shell....

False bottom layer- Improves pump and carbon filter performance while adding extra overall water volume. Pumps dont work as hard as they would sucking water through straight hydroton = better performance and extended life 

Hydroton layer- adds small bio filter affect and adds 3 physical filters for debris, looks better than a straight false bottom if you shield the sizes of your small false bottom from view with hydroton.

No disrespect on anything you have stated. I'm sure you have had success with what you use. I just disagree and chose to do something different and it works very well for me. If no one dared to be different than keeping dart frogs at all would have never occurred. I dont really ever agree with "tried and true" methods....dont be boring and dont be afraid to try something new. Thats what makes this hobby fun. Its new, exciting and there is always room for improvement.


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## frogparty

I still believe ideally you'd want no recirculating water and instead would want fresh water. Keep your tank drained and use the water to water houseplants. Or bleach and dispose.


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## djbn

frogparty said:


> I still believe ideally you'd want no recirculating water and instead would want fresh water. Keep your tank drained and use the water to water houseplants. Or bleach and dispose.


 Just to explain further, the water coming in from the rain system isnt recirculated. Its fresh RO water from an outside the tank source. Im just talking about keeping the false bottom debris free for the pump and filters protection. However because the systems bottom is all sharing the same water and the water is moving this keeps all parts of the water going through the hydroton layer


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## frogparty

Ah, I see.


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## Pumilo

djbn said:


> However I do disagree with a few of your points. One being that the newer bacteria isn't "hungrier".


That is absolutely NOT what I said. If you are going to disagree with any of my points, don't twist my words. At least pick a point that I actually made. What I said was, "It has nothing to do with old bacteria releasing nitrates and ammonia back into the system as it is impossible for them to remove any nitrate in the first place. It also has nothing to do with "hungrier" bacteria". 
You are completely disregarding the facts of the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle. You are misunderstanding or unaware of the function of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. Your aerobic bacteria cannot possible release nitrate back into the water as you stated. It is impossible because aerobic bacteria cannot possibly remove nitrates.

Sometimes it's best just to say...Moving on. Now and always friends, decide for yourselves who may be qualified to speak on a subject.


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## frankrom

GRIMM said:


> Funny, cause I think hydroton is the ugliest and most unnatural looking stuff you can put in a tank. Different strokes i guess...
> 
> FB with a perimeter of aquarium substrate is what I will always use. Cleanest looking way to do things imo.


Aye... I agree with Grimm. 

False bottom with a small gap to insert aquarium soil like fluval stratum.


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## TURQ64

Once again, it's a case of 'potato',potahto'...Whatever trips your tigger...Aye!


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## frogparty

The growth rate of your bacteria is you g to depend entirely on available resources. They will grow in "log" phase which is basically exponential growth based on their doubling time until they exhaust their feed, then their doubling rate slows and they enter into a "lag" phase where the population is kept fairly constant.


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## flyingSquirrel

Pumilo said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I have to correct misinformation when I see it. That's not how bio-balls and saltwater filtration work. I owned and operated Colorado Coral Farms for over 10 years and was also partners in an endeavor called Fragshop.com. I grew and distributed thousands of corals in my 10 years farming coral.
> Bio-balls are extremely efficient at what they were designed for. They foster aerobic bacteria. Aerobic bacteria are extremely efficient at converting ammonia to nitrite. They are also very efficient at converting nitrite to nitrate. They can never eliminate the nitrate from your system. It takes anaerobic bacteria to break down and eliminate the nitrate.
> Lets look at a few definitions and why they matter for reef tanks.
> Aerobic bacteria require oxygen to live. Anaerobic bacteria will only survive without oxygen.
> 
> Ammonia is toxic to fish and corals. Nitrites are toxic to fish and corals. Nitrates, on the other hand, are simply an irritant to fish when they hit higher levels. This is why bio-balls work well in fish only systems. In a fish only system, the nitrates are periodically reduced through water changes which keeps them from being a problem. In a reef tank, however, nitrates pose more of a problem. They irritate corals more than they irritate fish. At around 40 ppm they can become problematic for some corals. Additionally, they will fuel algae growth. When you combine elevated nitrate levels with the intense lighting required for a healthy reef tank system, what you end up with is an "algae factory".
> 
> "Algae factory" is a term we used for reef systems with bio-balls, under-gravel filters, bio-wheels, power filters, or any well oxygenated filter system. Algae will quickly choke out corals and kill them so we have to find ways of reducing or completely eliminating the nitrates. To do that, we need to foster the growth of anaerobic bacteria AND limit the aerobic bacteria. Too much aerobic bacteria will do their job so well that any anaerobic bacteria cannot do enough to reduce the nitrates.
> 
> That is why reefers strip the bio-balls, under-gravel filters, power filters, and bio-wheel filters. Instead, we rely on deep sand beds, and/or live rock. As the oxygen rich water slowly diffuses through the live rock and/or deep sand bed, the aerobic bacteria at the surface will do their job to convert ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate. While doing this, they deplete the water of oxygen. If set up properly, the lower levels of sand and the inner core of the rock, will foster anaerobic bacteria that will reduce or completely eliminate the nitrate from the system.
> 
> It has nothing to do with old bacteria releasing nitrates and ammonia back into the system as it is impossible for them to remove any nitrate in the first place. It also has nothing to do with "hungrier" bacteria. It is about the conditions you supply to foster the growth of aerobic and/or anaerobic bacteria. Bio-balls are absolutely NOT a good thing in any reef tank long term. They can be beneficial for the first several months but then they should be removed, a couple handfuls at a time each week, until your sand and rock can handle the load. Otherwise, they invariably will become a problem in the future.
> 
> Now the problem here is that if you have fish in your vivarium, all of this "filtration" material is above the water. It only filters the water draining down through the substrate (which the substrate would have done anyway). There is still no filtration to take care of the ammonia and nitrite being released into the water from the fish.
> 
> Additionally, you claim that this will make for crystal clear water. Yet there is nothing in play to remove all the tannins that your substrate and leaf litter will add to the water. This system will still have water the color of iced tea. Basically, it will be "tadpole tea".
> 
> Further, you should be presenting this as an idea you wish to try. Instead, you are presenting it as a tried and true, proven system, that will be better for your frogs. As you have only built one other frog tank, and this one still in progress, you cannot possibly have compared it to the tried and true methods already in wide use.


That...was...EPIC! But seriously, this is just ONE of the MANY reasons I love Dendroboard. At any time, I could unexpectedly learn 10x more than I thought I would in a thread. I am also amazed at the incredible amount of knowledge, experience, and varied backgrounds and professions that many of our members exhibit. Good stuff.

I'd also like to say that Doug's post was well written, to the point that it was easier to understand than almost any other source I've read regarding biological filtration.


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## fishguyturnedfrog

My head is spinning reading this. I've built 4 tanks now. My first tank I thought hydron was NEEDED but it's not. The way I built that one was using an egg crate false bottom, screen, hydroton, screen then soil. Wasted 2 inches on tank space with the hydroton. Both aren't needed. You can argue that the hydron helps to filter the water. Why doesn't the substrate filter the water? If you're using live plants, that's even more filtration once the roots make it through the screen and egg crate.

Either hydroton or egg crate serve the same purpose but the egg crate is more cost effective. 1 sheet of egg crate, depending on the size of the tank can last you 2-3 builds or more for $8. 1 bag of hydroton just for a 10 gallon tank is $8. Both doing the same thing of keeping the soil away from standing water and the egg crate will get you a lot further. Don't like the look of the egg crate? Go to a craft store and buy black contact paper and you can't see it anymore. Everything I do is all eggcrate.


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## fishguyturnedfrog

Gamble said:


> I agree doug ... i also previously stated that it is taking from the usable space, which is why i suggested that if they are set on combining the two, then the hydroton (or whatever they choose to use) is better served below, instead of above the false bottom. If they are aiming for a 2in or 3in high false bottom, to make it 2 or 3 in of drainage material and then place the eggcrate over top of that, therefore preserving the usable space for soil and leaf litter.


Why would you put hydroton below a false bottom? That would be like using nothing but hydroton. Completely defeats the purpose of the egg crate false bottom.


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## Gamble

fishguyturnedfrog said:


> Why would you put hydroton below a false bottom? That would be like using nothing but hydroton. Completely defeats the purpose of the egg crate false bottom.


As stated prior ... i do not use false bottoms in my tanks. The statement was made in regards to another members insistence on using both ... please redirect your question to them.


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## Quickness

WOW!! As a new guy to hobby this was a pretty interesting thread. I am also going through all the trials and tribulations about false bottom or hydroton. 

The only thing that I really totally understood was the section that Doug posted about the Bio-balls. Due to the simple fact of being a reefer also. 

Leaning toward the false bottom and placing hydroton around the outside of the FB. This would be acceptable, correct?? 

I am planning on adding a water feature to the setup and will be building a overflow/access point for my Rio50 pump to circulate the water.


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## Pumilo

Quickness said:


> WOW!! As a new guy to hobby this was a pretty interesting thread. I am also going through all the trials and tribulations about false bottom or hydroton.
> 
> The only thing that I really totally understood was the section that Doug posted about the Bio-balls. Due to the simple fact of being a reefer also.
> 
> Leaning toward the false bottom and placing hydroton around the outside of the FB. This would be acceptable, correct??
> 
> I am planning on adding a water feature to the setup and will be building a overflow/access point for my Rio50 pump to circulate the water.


Yes, that would be acceptable. So you are using the hydroton around the outside, simply to hide the ugly edge of the false bottom, right? That is completely fine, although many times, gravel would be chosen to hide the edge instead of hydroton, simply as it looks more natural.

The Rio 50 has a poor track record for performance. Does your ever jamb upon start up and you have to try starting it over and over, or even have to whack the side to get it to start? Rios do this a lot. A better choice would be the Aquarium Systems micro jet 404 or 606.
I'm not a fan of water features but if you are going to do one, make sure you have a reliable pump.


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## Quickness

Pumilo said:


> Yes, that would be acceptable. So you are using the hydroton around the outside, simply to hide the ugly edge of the false bottom, right? That is completely fine, although many times, gravel would be chosen to hide the edge instead of hydroton, simply as it looks more natural.
> 
> The Rio 50 has a poor track record for performance. Does your ever jamb upon start up and you have to try starting it over and over, or even have to whack the side to get it to start? Rios do this a lot. A better choice would be the Aquarium Systems micro jet 404 or 606.
> I'm not a fan of water features but if you are going to do one, make sure you have a reliable pump.


Only reason is that I have already purchased the hydroton so might as well use it. 

Also with the pumps I get them pretty cheap(9.00), but will look into the pumps that you mentioned. Thanks!


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