# PDF Species in same tank



## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

I am almost done completing my 55 Gal paludarium. I would like to put some diff species of darts int here. I have read ALOT where they say not to mix due to the possibility of hybrids. Frist, whats the issue with hybrids? Are there any species I can put together? They will have alot of room in there so it wouldnt be crowded. I am also considering putting some newts int he water area. I wanted to add some salamanders, but it seems they require less heat then the rest and it wouldnt be an adequate environment for them. Also, can red eye tree frogs or any other type of frog stay in the tank with them? They all require the same heat and humidity for the most part.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Well....

The search feature will be helpful to you. Generally speaking, no, you should not mix species for a host of reasons, unless you want to watch them all die.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

The problem with treefrogs and darts together is mainly the fact that treefrogs are a canopy species and need much more air circulation that the darts, because of this you'd either need a very tall viv with a large vented areas that can provided sufficient air flow and circulation, but at the same time keeping it humid enough for both species which can become a challenge. Not enough air flow can cause a host of problems for the treefrogs.

Then you have the issue of crickets, main food source for the treefrogs, which can injure a frog species depending on its size, in some cases you may able to keep a pdf that eats crickets and then you won't have that issue.


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

I have been doing alot of reading and I guess I wasn't using the correct search words. I see that this is a hot topic and im sorry if people read this and get upset. I see now why you shouldnt keep diff species of darts together. The one thing I cant find though is different colors of the same species. Like is it acceptable to have different colors of the D. auratus like the panamanian and the hawaiian? or is this considered unacceptable? im a newbie so I apologize in advance if this is '101' stuff.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Different "morphs" of the same species together would also be bad because they probably would breed


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

Thank you for the input on the tree frogs. I wasnt aware of the air circulation. Thanks for that. Its difficult to find information about other types of animals that can be int he same tank as a dart. Would you see an issue with having newts int he water section of my tank? The water section is only 5 in deep with adequate rock and wood to climb out in the event of the dart falling in. I also built up the bottom so 2-3 in so technically the water is only 2-3 in deep.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Welcome to Dendroboard. 

Mixing species(or in most cases different morphs of the same species) will not cause your frogs to die. Poor planning and inexperience is the downfall of most that try to maintain a mixed enclosure. I would recommend trying out a single species as a beginner and after you have had success if you are still interested in a mixed enclosure then give it a try. 

I'd be happy to answer any questions you have on a mixed PDF setup. Just send me a PM with any questions you have.


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

I remember seeing a thread where someone kept multiple male tincs of different morphs together in a large viv.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Tony7781 said:


> I have been doing alot of reading and I guess I wasn't using the correct search words. I see that this is a hot topic and im sorry if people read this and get upset. I see now why you shouldnt keep diff species of darts together. The one thing I cant find though is different colors of the same species. Like is it acceptable to have different colors of the D. auratus like the panamanian and the hawaiian? or is this considered unacceptable? im a newbie so I apologize in advance if this is '101' stuff.


Keeping different morph "different colors" togther is a cardinal sin and it is worse than keeping different species. That is a big NO NO.


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> Different "morphs" of the same species together would also be bad because they probably would breed


Makes sense, but can I ask what the issue is with 2 morphs breeding? Is it the fact that the outcome is unknown and not acceptable unless your are well versed int he animals and species?


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## ktewell (Dec 17, 2009)

Agreed, I would suggest a bit more studying. There are a lot of threads on this topic. I know there is at least one person who has darts and RETFs together but it's really not as cool as you would think. Besides, the RETFs are completely nocturnal and need as much vertical space as you can give them. There is also the issue of food hogging- or keeping both diurnal and nocturnal species together that interrupts their normal activity cycles- or having chemical intolerance of another species' skin products (newts) or urine (RETFs). My hands get completely covered with RETF urine in about two minutes of handling when I'm doing study in the wild. They produce a very large amount with lots of nitrogenous waste and you can't predict how another frog will react to it, especially one that spends more of its time on the ground of the tank. Another huge problem is the transfer of parasites. Some of the most dangerous parasitic infections involve an infection of a different species that did not evolve with the parasite and is thus much more susceptible to its harmful effects.

I think once you read a bit more you'll find yourself wanting to take better care of your animals than a mixed tank could give them. Your best bet would be darts on the land portion, and a docile fish in the water portion. Many people do this, just do a few searches first.

Good luck.

EDIT: Yeah, I saw your update and my post may no longer be relevant to your question. But I'm keeping it here for your enrichment.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Tony7781 said:


> Makes sense, but can I ask what the issue is with 2 morphs breeding? Is it the fact that the outcome is unknown and not acceptable unless your are well versed int he animals and species?


It has more to do with polluting the purity of the natural morphs in the hobby


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks Jellyman, I will def pick your brain! I agree with you, it def makes sense to "crawl" before I "walk" lol. I thought getting into darts would be easy since I used to breed snakes and some other reptiles. Darts are amazing looking frogs and the background of them is interesting. i look forward to increasing my experince level with these lil guys!


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Tony7781 said:


> Makes sense, but can I ask what the issue is with 2 morphs breeding? Is it the fact that the outcome is unknown and not acceptable unless your are well versed int he animals and species?


Unlike other animals we as hobbyist are trying to keep these species as true to their wild counterparts and by mixing you create hybrids which are unnatural. I know that it is acceptable with other species but highly frond upon with pdf's


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

I want to thank you all for your help! That definately clears alot up for me. I ordered 2 books and will read them as soon as I get them, and read all i can on the internet but sometimes its not easy to find an answer to your exact question. And Im sure this is an ongoing and annoying topic (for the veterans here) so i appreciate the information!! As soon as I complete my tank I will post pics. I prob wont be ready for frogs for a moth or 2, since I want to complete the tank and let it cycle for a few weeks before I put anything in it. Since Im almost done with the build I wanted to see if I should have added a larger or smaller water area depending on what else I was able to put in the tank. id love to just have like 5 darts and maybe some fish (thanks for the advice on the toxins that may be released from the newts skin).


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dart frogs can drown much more easily that you can imagine.

For your first vivarium....go SIMPLE. Single species and medium size enclosure. No water feature.

That's the best advice I can give, and going at the hobby slowly and carefully will earn you praise and respect of others.

Good luck and welcome aboard.


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

Tony7781 said:


> I want to thank you all for your help! That definately clears alot up for me. I ordered 2 books and will read them as soon as I get them, and read all i can on the internet but sometimes its not easy to find an answer to your exact question. And Im sure this is an ongoing and annoying topic (for the veterans here) so i appreciate the information!! As soon as I complete my tank I will post pics. I prob wont be ready for frogs for a moth or 2, since I want to complete the tank and let it cycle for a few weeks before I put anything in it. Since Im almost done with the build I wanted to see if I should have added a larger or smaller water area depending on what else I was able to put in the tank. id love to just have like 5 darts and maybe some fish (thanks for the advice on the toxins that may be released from the newts skin).


I've only been here for a little while but this is the best resolution I've ever seen to a mixing thread.


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

I agree, this was very clear and concise! I jsut didnt understand the reasoning why you shouldnt mix, but now it all makes sense  I wish I knew some other local PDF hobbyist to speak to and get involved with. I live in Staten Island (if youve seen the MTV show, please dont judge me, im not like that at all!) and there arent many 'animal lovers' esp PDF lovers here.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Tony7781 said:


> I agree, this was very clear and concise! I jsut didnt understand the reasoning why you shouldnt mix, but now it all makes sense  I wish I knew some other local PDF hobbyist to speak to and get involved with. I live in Staten Island (if youve seen the MTV show, please dont judge me, im not like that at all!) and there arent many 'animal lovers' esp PDF lovers here.


oh you would be suprised how many there are in the NYC area....you are in a "busy" area for this hobby.

I think I just may know someone very nearby to you as well


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> oh you would be suprised how many there are in the NYC area....you are in a "busy" area for this hobby.
> 
> I think I just may know someone very nearby to you as well


REALLY?!?!  I was doing searches for NY breeders and only found one in Brooklyn. I spoke to him he seems like a nice guy but once I asked him a question he never responded  that just put a bad taste in my mouth ya know. You have me extremely intrigued! lol I see your from Harrisburgh, PA. That isnt too far is it?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

We have Derrick in Hoboken

Mike K, Chris and Julio in the city

Lots of Jersey guys too.

there are probably 15 or more within 50 miles of you. Keep reading threads and searching around on here and you will soon see all the massive support you will have soon.

and then when you attend your first frog meet and see all the cool vivs and frogs.......your head may just blow right off


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

Wow that just made me feel like a kid again at christmas. Frog meets must be insane! Thanks for the info, Ill try to navigate around here to find some others. Thanks again, you guys/ladies are really extremely helpful!


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## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

I'm from long island not far from the city. You also have Mike who isn't to far from me and a guy named Richard that lives in staten island. There are a lot of us. It's a good area to enjoy this hobby in.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

If your looking to keep five frogs may I suggest luecs. good beginer frog, great and groups, bold and woodsman breeds them and he is local (staten Island). He may be able to help you out.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> Welcome to Dendroboard.
> 
> Mixing species(or in most cases different morphs of the same species) will not cause your frogs to die.


Actually, yes, there is strong evidence (and enough common sense I would hope) to suggest that the introduction of different species from different locales/continents (notice how I'm not saying morphs of the same species) can lead to the mortality of one of more species due to parasites and/or aggression, esp. when tank design/size, general parameters, are not designed to accommodate multiple species (tree frogs, darts, newts, fish, tarantulas, etc). Many dart frogs will drown in more than a few inches of water. Certain species are highly aggressive whereas others are not so much. While they may not experience instantaneous death by mixing species (esp. across genus and family) you will likely undermine any and all efforts you make at successful husbandry. Just saying...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ktewell said:


> My hands get completely covered with RETF urine in about two minutes of handling when I'm doing study in the wild. They produce a very large amount with lots of nitrogenous waste and you can't predict how another frog will react to it, especially one that spends more of its time on the ground of the tank.


This is only going to be a problem if the frogs are kept in an enclosure where there are problems with the bacterial population in the substrate (for example, anerobic conditions due to water logging, sterile enclosures...) as the ability of bateria in a enviroment similar to soil is many many fold greater than that found in aquatic enviroments. Usually in soils or soil like conditions, nitrogen gets sequestered very quickly so unless there are other issues, the nitrogenous waste shouldn't be a concern. 

Ed


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

Well I dont want to blow your heads up buy you guys are awesome! Since everyone says you cant mix diff morphs of the same species due to risk of creating a hybrid, what if you dont breed them or incubate the eggs? Would this still cause an issue for them just being domiciled together? Im not planning on it anymore im just curious for my own knowledge.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Don't push your luck Tony....


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

Tony,
Welcome to the Board. To address your question about not breeding or not incubating the eggs, I would point out that, unless you get all of one sex, the frogs are VERY likely to breed (assuming you are taking good care of them). In fact, some hobbyists struggle with stopping their frogs from breeding to prevent them from exhausting themselves. So then the question becomes, can you bring yourself to destroy eggs that you know are developing and fertile? If you happen not to find a clutch and they hatch, can you destroy tads that appear healthy other than their mixed genetic lineage? If you miss tads and they morph and you one day find a small froglet hopping around, can you bring yourself to euthanize that animal? Hybrids happen frequently and there is a lot of debate as to whether they should be immediately destroyed. It is much easier to avoid producing a hybrid frog by sticking to one species/morph than it is to bring yourself to destroy an animal.

As for local froggers, check out this thread....http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/northeast/46776-tri-state-area-meeting.html


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## MonkeyFrogMan28 (Feb 3, 2009)

Dont mix Newts or salamanders with darts. Newts generally are all toxic enough to kill or cause sickness to other darts. Salamanders will never work because they require a whole different set up and temps. Even if the newts were to stay in the water, they would all be sharing the same water source.


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

Insularexotics, very well put. See this is exactly why I asked the question. Thank you for a well put response. I am sooo happy I decided to start this thread. Tonight I was about to create the pond area in my tank. After all the input and more research I am going to make the tank strictly Darts and nothing else. I am going to check out that link you put in also. Monkey, I didnt really realize the toxins and bacteria that came with the newts, again thanks for that info which helped qualify what I read earlier today about that.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

stemcellular said:


> Actually, yes, there is strong evidence (and enough common sense I would hope) to suggest that the introduction of different species from different locales/continents (notice how I'm not saying morphs of the same species) can lead to the mortality of one of more species due to parasites and/or aggression, esp. when tank design/size, general parameters, are not designed to accommodate multiple species (tree frogs, darts, newts, fish, tarantulas, etc). Many dart frogs will drown in more than a few inches of water. Certain species are highly aggressive whereas others are not so much. While they may not experience instantaneous death by mixing species (esp. across genus and family) you will likely undermine any and all efforts you make at successful husbandry. Just saying...


You are correct, there is evidence that owners did not take the proper precautions and placed sick/ill frogs in with healthy frogs causing them to die or they did not design an enclosure to properly house the animals they placed within. You will also find the same evidence that kills many single species enclosure frogs as well. 

The real evidence is that a properly designed enclosure for mixed species of PDF's(I'm not talking about anything other then PDF's) can easily be successful and as rewarding if not more rewarding then a simple single species enclosure. 

Here is a link to my mixed enclosure:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37893-starting-new-vivarium.html


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> You are correct, there is evidence that owners did not take the proper precautions and placed sick/ill frogs in with healthy frogs causing them to die or they did not design an enclosure to properly house the animals they placed within. You will also find the same evidence that kills many single species enclosure frogs as well.
> 
> The real evidence is that a properly designed enclosure for mixed species of PDF's(I'm not talking about anything other then PDF's) can easily be successful and as rewarding if not more rewarding then a simple single species enclosure.
> 
> ...


If you will recall, the initial question was about mixing PDFs with tree frogs, newts, etc., hence my response.


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## Tony7781 (Jan 27, 2010)

Hey guys I have a quick question regarding the background. (I searched other threads and cant find this particular answer). Since our eventful conversation yesterday, I was up until 1am breaking down my tank and redoing it! Good thing I didnt get too far! When using the GS foam, do you mostly just spray it directly on the the back glass, let it dry and sculpt it in the tank? Or can you remove it from the back after you spray it on the back and it dries in order to sculpt it outside of the tank? Also, when using the silicone painted on and then some ecoearth, will that seal the foam good enough or do I need another layer of something else? Thanks again for all your help guys!


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