# Daphnia in tad water causing problems?



## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

I just had an auratus and a couple gold bi-color phyllos morph out of a natural blend tad water from a shrimp tank and it was full of daphnia. the water stays reall clean with them but I've had a lot of developmental issues with the frogs limbs. Their size is good but the auratus had problems with his front and back limbs and it's looking like these two new phyllos have some pretty punny front limbs. Should I look at changing diet or water or what  

I feed ocean nutrition pellets number one and two protien and algae based.

thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Ben,

It isn't the daphnia, if you look in the frognet archives, you will find several discussions of them without issues. However, is the water you are using filtered through carbon? 

If you are seeing it across several taxa, what kinds of supplements are you using with the adults? 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

As a side note, while Ocean Nutrition Formula One and Two are great foods, you should read the ingredients on the flake Formula one, verses the pellet Formula One. The flake form has more, and better, sources of protein in it. Go flake next time.


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

You know... I do use strickly RO water where as when I was growing out a lot of tads b4 I used aged tap with fantastic results. I'll also try the flake which reminds me that I used to feed a whole range of food items to my tads. Thanks for the help


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> Hi Ben,
> 
> It isn't the daphnia, if you look in the frognet archives, you will find several discussions of them without issues. However, is the water you are using filtered through carbon?
> 
> ...


Hi Ed,i am a bit confused,is there a problem with filtering with carbon,or am I reading this the wrong way round?
thankyou
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> Hi Ed,i am a bit confused,is there a problem with filtering with carbon,or am I reading this the wrong way round?
> thankyou
> Stu


 
Several institutions has problems with high levels of spindly leg across multiple taxa due to high levels of phosphate released from the carbon used to filter the water. The spindly leg disappeared as soon as they stopped filtering with carbon resulting in some trials to confirm it was the carbon. 


Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

stu&shaz said:


> Hi Ed,i am a bit confused,is there a problem with filtering with carbon,or am I reading this the wrong way round?
> thankyou
> Stu





Ed said:


> Several institutions has problems with high levels of spindly leg across multiple taxa due to high levels of phosphate released from the carbon used to filter the water. The spindly leg disappeared as soon as they stopped filtering with carbon resulting in some trials to confirm it was the carbon.
> 
> 
> Ed


Ed, So a higher quality of carbon, like used in reef tanks, that does not leach carbon, would be OK? Or a four stage RO purifier that goes through, in this order, particle filter, carbon block filter, RO membrane, and finally a DeIonizer (which would remove any phosphates), should also be OK?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would suggest finding out if your water contains added phosphates as water companies add it to deal with some water issues before using any carbon. If there isn't additional phosphates added to the water then you can probably use a carbon that (supposedly) doesn't leach phosphates.

In my current location at home, I can't use our well water for rearing tadpoles as the treatment for high iron content results in high phosphate levels (I had to give up my 75 gallon reef after we moved here). I have to run it through a RO system and reconstitute it. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> I would suggest finding out if your water contains added phosphates as water companies add it to deal with some water issues before using any carbon. If there isn't additional phosphates added to the water then you can probably use a carbon that (supposedly) doesn't leach phosphates.
> 
> In my current location at home, I can't use our well water for rearing tadpoles as the treatment for high iron content results in high phosphate levels (I had to give up my 75 gallon reef after we moved here). I have to run it through a RO system and reconstitute it.
> 
> Ed


Thankyou for the reply,i had no idea that there were any problems associated with carbon filters.Ed we are using rainwater,i have a system for harvest where we let it rain for a while to flush the roof pipework etc,and then reconnect to harvest. The water,is then passed though a pillow case,so any bits can be easily removed.the water now passes through a 3 stage filter,course mesh,activated carbon impregnated into a mesh,and finally a much finer mesh,do i need to rethink this strategy? what are exceptable levels of contaminants?,and what exactly should i be testing for ? Hugely greatful
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> Thankyou for the reply,i had no idea that there were any problems associated with carbon filters.Ed we are using rainwater,i have a system for harvest where we let it rain for a while to flush the roof pipework etc,and then reconnect to harvest. The water,is then passed though a pillow case,so any bits can be easily removed.the water now passes through a 3 stage filter,course mesh,activated carbon impregnated into a mesh,and finally a much finer mesh,do i need to rethink this strategy? what are exceptable levels of contaminants?,and what exactly should i be testing for ? Hugely greatful
> Stu


Stu, I don't think I can give you a good answer for this as what is present in rain and picked up from the roof can he horribly complex. 
As an example, from the roof you have the risk of getting leachates from the roofing material, copper (if there is a strip at the top to inhibit algae and moss growth on the roof), pesticides and herbicides (as it is well established that pesticides and herbicides can travel thousands of miles before being washed out of the atmosphere), nitrate, sulphates (sulphuric acid), soot to name some off the top of my head. 

I know you are minimizing leachates and copper by allowing the system to flush but there are still a huge number of potential contaminents some of which can be problems for frogs in the ppm to ppb levels. That is why I don't think I'm qualified to suggest things to test for in rainwater. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> Stu, I don't think I can give you a good answer for this as what is present in rain and picked up from the roof can he horribly complex.
> As an example, from the roof you have the risk of getting leachates from the roofing material, copper (if there is a strip at the top to inhibit algae and moss growth on the roof), pesticides and herbicides (as it is well established that pesticides and herbicides can travel thousands of miles before being washed out of the atmosphere), nitrate, sulphates (sulphuric acid), soot to name some off the top of my head.
> 
> I know you are minimizing leachates and copper by allowing the system to flush but there are still a huge number of potential contaminents some of which can be problems for frogs in the ppm to ppb levels. That is why I don't think I'm qualified to suggest things to test for in rainwater.
> ...


Thankyou Ed I need to ponder on this,at least we don't have the copper,mosses and lichens grow all over,
thankyou for your honesty
Stu


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

So is RO water bad? If the water is completely demineralized/deionized would that ever cause a problem?

I've already gone back to aged tap water because it worked well for me in the past.


Also, the jury is still out for my two new bi-colors. They appear to be a little weak on the front half but not entirely lame??? Would be too bad too because one of them is already nearly solid yellow.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Contrary to a lot of misinformation about RO, RO is not bad provided your RO system is working correctly. Tadpoles will scavenge ions back from the RO water. If you check the literature, daphnia are used as water quality indicators so if the daphnia are doing well, the water quality should be okay. 

I'm going to ask a second time, what supplements are you using for the adults and how frequently, as that has been linked several times to spindly leg issues with metamorphs. 

Ed


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

Ed said:


> I'm going to ask a second time, what supplements are you using for the adults and how frequently, as that has been linked several times to spindly leg issues with metamorphs.
> 
> Ed


Oh, sorry Ed... forgot that question.

These are from two displays at a local daycare and an employee and a daycare worker feed. They feed herp cal w d3 mixed with herptivit daily. We were putting repashy superpig with the gold phyllos for a while but that stopped about 3-4 months ago. 

Since I don't need all the offspring the phyllow and auratus produce I've sold most of the tads and have only raised a couple. I sure do hope that the tads I sold didn't have sls. 

Thanks for you help getting this figured out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Ben,

The greatest likely cause of sls in this case would be hypovitaminosis of A in the adults. There isn't sufficient vitamin A or provitamin A in the eggs to allow for correct formation of the limb buds. The reason for this is because anurans do not appear to efficiently convert beta carotene to retinoids. 

To avoid this you need to change the supplements. You can try using just a supplement that contains retinyl palmiate or retinly acetate but on an anecdotal basis this doesn't seem to correct the problem unless the frogs are cycled down from reproductive conditions for months. What has worked better and is recommended by some vets is to use a dry retinyl acetate or retinly palmiate dust at least once a month to often as once a week. 
I was able to reverse problems with some treefrogs with twice a month dosing of the dry retinly palmitate. 

If you want to turn the problem around, the adults will need a different supplementation schedule. 
I would suggest the dry vitamin A at least once a month, and a supplement like Repashy Supervite. 

Ed


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