# setting up a 200 gal vivarium, need help!



## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi all,

I am a beginner at this, and just set up a 10 gal vivarium with (waterfall, plants, fog, and 2 azureus). Before I bought the azureus, I did a lot of research on how to care for them, and they seem happy and healthy in their new home (1 month old). Well needless to say, I am completely hooked. I just bought a used 200 gal tank (60Lx24Wx31H) and REALLY REALLY want to set up a mixed tank with different species of dendrobates (including azureus, leucomelas, reticulatus, tictorius, auratus) and 1 or 2 red eye green tree frog. I've read some problems that might occure is stress, territory, and diseases, however I figure that since it's such a big tank, and if I don't overcrowd the tank it should reduce the stress and territory problem. I know nothing about diseases. Is it common for frogs to get diseases? Can somebody tell me what major problems I might run into setting up a mixed tank? Also, does anybody know how humid red eye tree frogs like (I know dart frogs like 80%+ humidity)?. I've read 3 different sites and all of them tell something different about the red eye TF (50%, 60-70% and 80%). On a different note, what is the best type of substrate to use that requires less mantainance? I'm using pebbles right now with shredded coconut husk on top, but the Coco husk makes my water all brown. It also sticks to the frog sometimes. I've read you can use orchid bark or even just gravel. Will plants grow in these type of substrate? Thanks for the help.


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Congrats on completing your first viv!

I know this isn't the correct thing to do but I would STRONGLY suggest doing a search on mixing.

No offence to you as I am far from an expert but with the questions you are asking I don't know if you would be ready to start a mixed species viv.

Mixing- You are suggesting a wide away of frogs and just to many species IF you even do mix. If you decide to go that rout(I would suggest you don't) try to stick to two species three tops. Azureus are tincs so i would not mix those do to the fact that they could and may breed.

Diseases-Many things can affect your frogs and yes they are very common. There are various worms and parasites that attack the heart and intestinal track of frogs. When bringing in a species of treefrog (red eyes) there is also the threat of the chytrid fungus(also possible with darts) I would suggest you get fecals done if you do decide to mix to prevent the headache of tearing down your 200 gal.

Major Mixed tank problems-
1.)Stress
2.)Disease
3.)Improper husbandry do tue the fact that in order to combine these animals they may not get the exact requirements for them to do best.
4.)I am not even sure of this but it may be a possibility your reticulatus could be a meal for the red eyes?
5.)Different food. Red eyes will eat crickets and may not snatch them all up when fed these crickets will eat plants and can leave nasty bites on your frogs.


Substrate-There are tons of different mixes out there and it is really hard to narrow it down.
For something simple you could try co co fiber, orchid bark, and sphagnum.
Your water will turn brown no way to get around it. 
Plants can grow in gravel but will do better in a soil mixture.

Red Eye tree Frog-70-85 humidity


In general you seem new to this don't try cramming all of these guys together if your not ready.

Nothing positive will happen if you keep these frogs together only problems just throwing that out there.

Well hope this helps
Justin


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Justin,

Yes, I know most experts do not suggest mixing a tank and it could be tricky, but I REALLY want to accomplish this. But don't worry I'm going to do a LOT of research on this matter, before I attempt this. Also I'm not in ANY rush to get this tank going yet. I plan on making my own foam waterfall and that will take a while. I will probably slowly build and buy things for my tank and do plenty of research on mixing which might take me a year before I get it up and running. I will probably take your advice and only mix a few species together. 

"I would suggest you get fecals done if you do decide to mix to prevent the headache of tearing down your 200 gal."

What do you mean by "getting fecal done"?


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Get fecals run is when you have each frog in quarentine and get a fecal(poop) sample from each animal and send it to a lab to be analyzed. The lab will check it for parasites and send back the results.

Justin


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

While I do believe in mixing species, I would recommend you put the 200 gallon in storage until you have some more experience. 
If you turned the tank on its side and made a vertical tank, you could keep RETFs in there, but you would need thermal gradients or zones where the top of the tank was less humid than the bottom of the tank. 
Also, you need to introduce all of the frogs at the same time to reduce territory issues, etc.

There is alot of thought that must go into a mixed tank. And you need to have experience before doing so.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I suggest you see how you do with your azureus for several months before jumping in and accumulating more species. A ten gallon with a water feature is probably on the small size for a pair of darts.
If all goes well with the azureus, I'd try to keep each species you talked about mixing separately first, until you recognize 'normal' behavior. How can you recognize abnormal behavior in stressed animals without knowing what normal behaviors are? 
R. reticulata are not a beginner frog by any means, and are small enough to be viewed as prey by the RETFs. All of the other darts you listed are capable of cross-breeding, bringing with it all the associated problems (should hybrids be produced in the first place? these frogs can live 10-20+ years, are you going to cull the offspring? take care of them yourself?). 
That being said, a large group (8-10) leucs or auratus would make an interesting and entertaining display for a viv that size, and both are appropriate beginner choices. I'd personally lean towards leucs, as they are colorful, bold, and have a great call!


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

I would not shy away from a 200g aquarium. However, you may set it up 'better' if you have some other viv's under your belt. I am currently resetting up my original viv after I stripped it down; due to some initial errors in its building. Secondly, go slow.

As for mixing: another issue to consider is feeding. Pretty much all frogs will only go after living prey that is appropriately sized. For RETF this often means full grown 1" adult crickets; Terribilis, one of the 'biggest-mouthed' dart frogs only eats 1/2" crickets; and auratus/thumbnails, usually only eat fruit flies. Overly large feeder items will stress out the frogs and possibly kill them. If you do mix try to mix frogs that eat the same size food; and preferably, don't mix.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Thank you all for the information and input. Like I said I am new to this hobby, but don't worry I plan on taking my time, doing my research and going slow with this project. The different species I've mentioned I want to get is not set in stone by any means, and infact I haven't done my homework as what each species need, adult size, etc. yet. I would definately find out more about each frog before I make my decision on weather or not to try to incorporate it or not. I will probably narrow down how many species I mix to 3 or 4. I already started searching on the net to find out what other types of animals I could possibly mix with the dart frogs, and so far I heard small day geckos or anoles are a possibility. I will however most likely stick to just mixing different frogs, because it sounds like mixing lizards might even be trickier because of climate conditions. I read somewhere that the Tiger Leg Monkey Frog could be a better tank mate then the RETF because they are a little smaller in size. 
With the issue of mix breeding (excuse my ignorance), but what is the BIG contriversy over this? I know there are two groups, some like and some hate it. Are the people that are against it, is it that we (humans) are playing God? Is that why some oppose it so much? Do morphs come out weaker then frogs from the same species? Can the morphs breed or are they infertile? Anyhow, I just don't understand why it's such a big controversy can someone enlighten me?
ZBrinks to answer your question if I was going to cultivate the offsprings. Yes and no. If my frogs breed, I would try to raise the tadpoles into juveniles, and then probably sell them back to the reptile store because I don't think I want to have a bunch of small tanks to raise them in. It would be awesome if I could raise a frog from and egg into a juvenile. =O).
I have posted some pictures of my 10 gal vivarium (I know it's small but let me know what you guys think =o).


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Interbreeding is a huge controversy largely because a lot of folks that keep PDF keep them for more than a hobby but actually keep them in an effort to help conserve the frogs as their natural habitat is very quickly disappearing.


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

The dart frog hobby has also largely been able to keep away from the breeding the strangest coloration mentality of much of the reptile industry. I do not really see an issue with an individual interbreeding frogs; however, those frogs should not be introduced into the hobby in general; especially to beginners (such as through a pet store). If a beginner starts out with a mix breed it would be difficult to convince them to not mix breed; thus starting the down hill spiral that much of the reptile hobby is in.

Also, there are so many coloration's of frogs out there in the first place, that mix breeding does not really expand the range of colors.

---

And don't forget mantella's as an option, there are some nice colored ones out there, and they mostly eat the larger feeder items.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

nathan23 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> ... I just bought a used 200 gal tank (60Lx24Wx31H) and REALLY REALLY want to set up a mixed tank with different species of dendrobates (including azureus, leucomelas, reticulatus, tictorius, auratus) and 1 or 2 red eye green tree frog. I've read some problems that might occure is stress, territory, and diseases, however I figure that since it's such a big tank, and if I don't overcrowd the tank it should reduce the stress and territory problem. ... Thanks for the help.


Though you may think 200 gal tank is huge, it is tiny compared to your backyard, which is minute compared to the range a dart frog may occupy in the wild. No matter how big the box, it's still a box, from which there is no escape from the stress of tank mates.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

That being said, I recently read a research paper which found the average range of a male vent to be up to 51.2 square meters, and that of females to be up to 129 square meters. One of these frogs could comfortably fit on your thumbnail.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Justin, how do you find a place that does fecal run and approximately how much does that cost? Also to everyone listening, if your frog is healthy and has no parasites, can they get parasites if you do not introduce any new animals or plants? 
Zbrinks and rmelancon, I see your point and will consider this before I set up my mix tank.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Nubster said:


> Interbreeding is a huge controversy largely because a lot of folks that keep PDF keep them for more than a hobby but actually keep them in an effort to help conserve the frogs as their natural habitat is very quickly disappearing.


I'd like to hear more of these conservation efforts!

So when people get the newest greatest frog from a Peru import, what percentage of your clutches are sent back to Peru? What are the survival rates of vivarium raised frogs reintroduced into the wild? Where do these reintroduced frogs live when their habitat is gone? Why charge $300 for a froglet if your pure intention is solely conservation? It doesn't cost 10 times less to raise an auratus than a pumilio. How much of the profit from the sale of these frogs is used to purchase acreage to protect the habitat of the frogs?


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

scott r said:


> I'd like to hear more of these conservation efforts!
> 
> So when people get the newest greatest frog from a Peru import, what percentage of your clutches are sent back to Peru? What are the survival rates of vivarium raised frogs reintroduced into the wild? Where do these reintroduced frogs live when their habitat is gone? Why charge $300 for a froglet if your pure intention is solely conservation? It doesn't cost 10 times less to raise an auratus than a pumilio. How much of the profit from the sale of these frogs is used to purchase acreage to protect the habitat of the frogs?


While I agree that often times many people in the hobby exaggerate the extent that the breeding efforts are 'saving' the wild populations. I will point out that some individuals do help by sending a portion of their 'proceeds' back to conservation efforts; AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, by maintaining the 'genetic integrity' of the lines, we ensure that keeping dart frogs does not become a race to see who can get the most 'unique' colorations, ignoring animal health or completely losing the original normal coloration in the hobby.


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## bextraordinary (Feb 6, 2007)

scott r said:


> I'd like to hear more of these conservation efforts!
> 
> So when people get the newest greatest frog from a Peru import, what percentage of your clutches are sent back to Peru? What are the survival rates of vivarium raised frogs reintroduced into the wild? Where do these reintroduced frogs live when their habitat is gone? Why charge $300 for a froglet if your pure intention is solely conservation? It doesn't cost 10 times less to raise an auratus than a pumilio. How much of the profit from the sale of these frogs is used to purchase acreage to protect the habitat of the frogs?


I think the idea is to conserve these species for future study and observation, not to necessarily release them back to the wild. We have to restore their environment before pumping more frogs back into already-devastated rainforest. As mentioned above, tiny frogs have enormous ranges - we can do no good by artificially overpopulating shrinking habitats.

As for the $300/froglet thing.. yes, it's frustrating, but that's the free market at work. Clearly some people are willing to pay that price for something a little different. Once these species become more popular in the trade, the price will decrease.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Humans are evil in general. We have killed numerous different species of animals, we are cutting down the rain forrest (which has the most different species of animals), we are the cause of gobal warming, and most thing we do is for our self. Even keeping a vivarium is for our own pleasure. Animals should be in the wild to roam free and not kept in little glass tanks. So I find it a little condescending when people try to play that "holier then thou" routine. People who keep dart frog are not trying to save the species, they are doing it for their own pleasure. With that said, I still not sure if I'm pro cross breeding or against it. I guess if the hybrids are healthy and not sterol then I'm okay with it, but if they are weak, sicky, have short lives or sterol then I would be against it. And all hobbiest should try to do their best to keep the frogs alive and healthy.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

The conservation efforts are not so much based on returning these frogs to the wild. The efforts are based around keeping what we have in the hobby pure. Many of these frogs cannot be brought back in (legally), so we have what we have. If we do not manage them properly, or cross them and come up with a bunch of ugly mixes (and they are ugly) we could loose species we have. It has happened before. There are species that have been plentiful and then largely disappeared from the hobby. If anyone is not familiar with the goal of TWI/ASN it would be good to read up on that a bit. Another problem, many of the different morphs of frogs look very similar as it is and can be hard to keep separate. You start adding crosses and it is going to get very difficult. It is just bad for the hobby.

If one really wants a multi species tank (and I am not saying go for it), then there are frogs that can be mixed that will not cross breed. So that at least solves the hybrid question.

In conclusion, cross breeds are ugly, natural species are pretty and plentiful!


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

My comment wasn't in favor of cross breeding or mixed species tanks. Like stated above, some people act like we are saving the worlds wild populations. But in actuality, when a frog commands $300, that drives up the illegal smuggling of said frogs. And keeping frogs solely for THEIR own good? Anyone ever ask them how they like 10 gallon enclosures?
I know that several people do donate money to save some acreage, but others pump the frogs full of drugs to increase egg counts so they can pump out more $300 frogs. And if the goal is to get the frogs out in the hobby so more people can breed them, why not make them more affordable for everyone? I am not interested in pumilio, and don't want any, but I see more greed than good.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

This might sound like a really dumb question, but how do you clean a big vivarium that is heavily planted? When I set up my 200 gal tank, how will I ever clean it with all the plants, frogs, etc in there?


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

You spray the frog poop off the glass and plants with you water sprayer. You might wipe the front glass off with clean water and a paper towel. You drain the water table occasionally or do a water change in the water feature. But that is about it, you just want all the waste to naturally break down in the substrate for the plants.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanks for the info Cindre, that doesn't sound so bad. 
Here's another question I have, does anyone know which substrate will last longer between
orchid bark and coconut husk? I am using shredded coconut husk right now, it's doing okay but it sometimes sticks on the frogs and/or glass. I was thinking of switching to orchid bark, but would probably go with the one that last longest.


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

If you use the search function and read past posts you will find what our community has to say about mixing species. You will also find a wealth of information on all other subjects regarding tank set ups and what not. Take your time, read from the forum and come to an educated decision. Hopefully by then you will understand that it is not in the frogs best interest and simply a selfish personal choice.


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

I use mixes rather than straight up one type, but a larger particle size will usually last longer since the out surface must erode first. The more porous an object the more likely it will erode faster. However, it also depends on the surrounding environment. I use a combination of eco earth, coco soft, sphagnum and peat mix, reptibark, clay, leaf litter, and sphagnum. I then wet it, place it, and cover it with leaf litter and walnut shells.


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

If you use the search function and read past posts you will find what our community has to say about mixing species. You will also find a wealth of information on all other subjects regarding tank set ups and what not. Take your time, read from the forum and come to an educated decision. Hopefully by then you will understand that it is not in the frogs best interest and simply a selfish personal choice.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

dopederson said:


> Hopefully by then you will understand that it is not in the frogs best interest and simply a selfish personal choice.


Keeping them in a small enclosure is a selfish personal choice too when you think about it, but we all do it.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

After doing more research about mixed tanks I will definately limit the number of species I try to mix, if I plan to mix my vivarium. What do you guys think about having a mixed tank w/ 2-4 cobalts, 2 leacomelas, and 2 auratus. I don't think any of them can interbreed, am I right? I know the cobalts are more aggresive then the leacs and the auratus, which I hope to alleviate by the way I design and set up the tank so they have there own territories. That's 6-8 dart frogs in a 200 gal tank. Does this sound managable? 

"Keeping them in a small enclosure is a selfish personal choice too when you think about it, but we all do it." - Scott r

That is exactly what I am talking about. People say it's selfish to set up a mix tank, etc., but it's also selfish to keep a vivarium in general. The frogs are kept in tiny glass tanks all their lives, but ppl in the hobby aren't outraged by this. Yes it may be selfish of me to want a nice BIG tank with more then one species of frog, but it's also selfish for other's to keep dart frogs in general. I am NOT going just go grab a bunch of frogs and throw them together without doing my research. I want my frogs to be HEALTHY and happy and to exhibit there natural characteristic. Who's to say which is worst, a 200 gal tank with 6-8 frogs (three different species) or a 10 gal tank with 2 frogs (same species). How do we know which living situation makes the frogs happier? As long as the frogs are healthy, and continue with their normal habbits, I don't see a problem with that.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

All frogs of the 'tinc' group can interbreed (auratus, leucs, any tinc morph, including azureus). 

You're just starting in this hobby, so don't set yourself up for failure. Start simple. Spend a year or two before accumulating more species. Trust me, there's plenty to learn about any given species.
Research is important, but when it comes to some aspects of the hobby such as mixing species, experience speaks volumes. Don;t even consider mixing species until you have first-hand, sustained experience with each individual species you are going to attempt to mix. 
I was not aware the goal of frogkeeping was to make the frogs 'happy', much less that frogs were capable of being 'happy', a very human emotion. I would much rather keep a pair (assuming a compatible, same species/morph pair) of frogs together in a 10 gallon tank, than introduce several species to constant stress of a large, mixed tank.

That being said, a large group of leucs, imis, vents, auratus, galacs, tricolors, terribs, bicolors, azureventris, or intermedius (all same species, same morph) would make an amazing display in your 200g.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Zbrinks, when I say keeping the frog happy, I mean to satisfy all their needs. How do you know that a pair in a 10 gal tank wouldn't be stress from such a small environment? If I only have 6-8 frogs in a 200 gal tank with a lot of plants, etc. the submissive frog can escape a more dominate frog can't it? Are you sure that Leucs/Auratus are Tinc's??? I was told that they are not and can't breed w/ the tincs. I know the Azureus are Tincs and can interbreed with them. That was why I decided not to include them in my set up. 

You make it sound like it's for sure that 3 different species (6-8 frogs) in a 10 gallon tank will be constantly stressed, and a pair in a 10 gal tank will not be, but how can you know for sure? How do you know that 10 frogs (same species) in a 200 gal tank would have less stress then 6-8 frogs (3 species)? I know that mix tank can cause territory problems and stress, that is why I am planning to get very few frogs and not too much species in a decently large tank. Also, I hear that the leucs and auratus are not too agressive and can do well in a community, that is why I chose those two species. Most likely the only species that might give my tank problem is the tincs. 

Can someone tell me if it's a fact that leucs and auratus can breed with the tincs, because I've heard that they are not tincs and can't breed with them. Please let me know if I'm wrong, so I can plan differently.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Auratus and leucs are not tincs (as in Dendrobates tinctorius), but are part of the 'tinc' group. They are closely related species, and can interbreed. 

Interspecies agression (either outright fighting or much more subtle) is a huge potential problem with mixing. A pair of frogs in a ten gallon are not constantly trying to get away from each other. There is a very real chance that more subtle interspecies agression will contribute to the stress of other inhabitants. A 200 gallon viv, although large, is not really all that big. A single D. ventrimaculatus, a frog that could comfortably fit on your thumbnail, has a natural home range of over 100 square yards. 

Please, think about this very long and very hard. Spend a couple years working with individual species before considering a mixed display, and then re-examine your urge. If you feel the need to ask these questions, you are not ready to attempt a mixed vivarium.

That being said, I have expressed my opinions, and am done with this conversation. best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

So the wild caught animal requires a 100 square yards, and the captive bred animal only requires a 10 gallon vertical vivarium. 
Nathan, the species that you keep mentioning are common species that have been captive bred for over 20 years. So, the frogs that you will purchase very well could be as far out as F20 or 20 generations removed from the wild. 
About 6 months ago, a well respected board member posted a tank set up for several species and everyone praised it. But a new guy gets banished. I have kept frogs for almost 20 years now, and I do what I do. 
Always remember this..A HIGH POST COUNT DOESN'T MEAN ALOT OF EXPERIENCE. SOMETIMES IT JUST MEANS YOU LIKE THE SOUND OF YOUR OWN VOICE.


THIS POST IS IN NO WAY DIRECTED AT ZBRINKS. IT JUST HAPPENS TO FOLLOW HIS


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Zbrinks, I am not trying to argue with you, so don't take it that way. I am sure you have more experience then me, and I value everyone's opinion. I know that even a 200 gal tank isn't that big compared to how far these frogs travel in the wild. BUT how can you say that if their home range is over 100 square yard in the wild, and we put 2 in a 10 gallon tank, that won't stress them out? 6-8 in a 200 gallon tank will have more room to move around, even if certain parts of the tank is off limits because it belongs to another frog.

I know a lot of hobbiest bash on other people who want's a mixed tank. The general suggestion I hear is to get many of 1 species, or to get many tanks so you can keep different species separated. But I think they don't understand why some ppl want a mixed tank. First of all, it's not practical for some us to get a BUNCH of different tanks, because we might not have the room, money, etc. Secondly, ppl that want mixed tank usually want to be able to see and keep more then 1 species (w/o having to keep a bunch of different tanks). People that are against it usually say "it's selfish to want a mixed tank because it might cause problems for the frogs". Well isn't keeping 2 frogs in a 10 gal tank also selfish, when their natural range is 100 sq yard? What about people that want those RARE frogs that are super expensive because they are rare, super hard to keep and can easily die? Isn't that selfish to want that? It's not like it's impossible to have a mixed tank, or it almost always fail. I have heard a lot of success stories if the setting is proper. That is why I am trying to do as much research as I can, and I am in NO rush to get this vivarium started. I am also trying to provide them with as much room as I can afford, and will not overcrowd the tank. I value everyone's opinion hear and in fact, from the responses I've gotten so far, I have changed my planning already. I have lowered the number of species I want to mix, I have lowered the number of frogs I plan to get, and I have tried to get species that can NOT cross breed. I have also ruled out getting recticulatus because I found out they are harder to keep. Trust me, I am going to find out everything I can and do everything I can to make this a successful tank. 

Does anyone have some helpful suggestions I can do to make this a successful mixed tank (I'd especially like to hear from people who have successfully mixed tanks). Some very helpful hints I've learned so far are:
1) Quarantee all my frogs to make sure they don't have parasites before I put them in the tank.
2) Introduce the frogs in the tank all at the same time, because when they have established territory already, it disrupts and gives them stress when you introduce a new frog.
3) If you set up your tank with visible barriers between different territories, it helps the frogs establish their own territories and know where it ends.


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## Obliv79 (Oct 31, 2007)

Everyone has posted their opinions on why most look down on mixed tanks. Simply put you are gonna do what you want reguardless of what anyone says. So good luck and when your mixed species mate do the RESPONSIBLE thing and don't sell them.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

First off, I want to state that I wasn't aware I was bashing anyone. If disagreeing with someone and expressing an opinion is bashing, please let me know and I'll update my dictionary. 

Nathan, you started a post in which you stated you did not have much experience and wanted advice on mixing. Even though I do not like mixed tanks, I by no means think that they cannot be done. I know they can be done. I just think that they should not be accomplished by anyone without years of experience. How can you be assured that your mixed frogs are behaving 'normally' if you do not have an idea what normal behavior is, something best gained by first hand experience. 
I posted the example of a frog with a home range of 100 square yards to illistrate that these guys encompass large areas in the wild, which gives them the ability to flee should a confilt arise. Sure, different dart species occur sympatrically in the wild, but their home range encompasses a much larger area then a 10 to 200 gallon tank. I do not like small vivs (my smallest is 30 gallons), but I would favor a ten gallon tank with a pair (same species/morph) over a larger, mixed tank, as far as the long term health of the frogs is concerned. 
I have a regular customer at work who has a 8'x2'x3' vivarium with auratus, leucs, and azureus. He had the group of leucs for a couple years before introducing them to the larger viv, and adding additional species, after the suggestion of another local pet store. Not only did he lose several auratus after 6 months, he had to deal with the removal of eggs, and the euthanization of the occasional hybrid froglet he found in the viv. The auratus and leucs were almost never seen, and did not call regularily. The azureus were the dominant animals in the viv, and kept the other frogs at bay during feeding time. About 2 years ago, he removed the auratus and azureus to their own vivs, and has not lost a single frog since. All the frogs are much more visible in their individual vivs, and breed on a regular basis. 

scott r, that's wonderful that you have 20 years of experience. Share it. This thread was about constructing a 200 gallon mixed vivarium, and I fail to see any 'contributions' except that keeping frogs is a selfish personal choice and that I post too much. Please make any response via pm so we don't pollute this thread further.

If anyone finds my response too blunt or otherwise offensive, I apologize.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Zach,
I read your post to pm. However, I will make this post publicly, as I am not attacking you or anyone else on this site. 
My first pc of advise in this thread was that the 200 gallon tank be put in storage until the original poster had gained the knowledge and experience to properly set up the enclosure to meet the needs of the animals to be housed. SEE POST # 5
As I stated, my previous post was not directed at you. There are alot of very knowledgeable members here that do not post very often, that would be a great source of information. Charles Powell for one. Chuck has over 20 years of experience, has experience with mixed tanks, and has a low post count.
When I first started keeping PDFs, you learned through trial and error. And alot of the species that were around then were lost due to improper husbandry. 
Now, however, the internet has a wealth of information that wasn't available then, and it is easy to find. 
In addition, you have great sites like this ( thanks Kyle) where people can share ideas and tips with others, as well as find animals not sold in the local pet store.

However...........

1. Nathan has a 200 gallon tank
2. Nathan is going to set up a 200 gallon mixed species tank.
3. Nathan reached out for information and didn't just throw the frogs together first.

I agree that frogs should be kept in the largest enclosure possible. I prefer 2' x 4' x 2' tall for terrestrial frogs and 2' x 2' x 4' for arboreal frogs. These are easily made. 

I would not recommend mixing species in a tank any smaller than the one Nathan has, but I feel it would be better if He got some helpful advice instead of the quick NO always given.

Since he is going to build this tank, it would be better for the frogs if he was given some useful advice on how to do so. Then maybe the frogs introduced will be fat, healthy, and happy.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

scott r said:


> So the wild caught animal requires a 100 square yards, and the captive bred animal only requires a 10 gallon vertical vivarium.
> Nathan, the species that you keep mentioning are common species that have been captive bred for over 20 years. So, the frogs that you will purchase very well could be as far out as F20 or 20 generations removed from the wild.
> About 6 months ago, a well respected board member posted a tank set up for several species and everyone praised it. But a new guy gets banished. I have kept frogs for almost 20 years now, and I do what I do.
> Always remember this..A HIGH POST COUNT DOESN'T MEAN ALOT OF EXPERIENCE. SOMETIMES IT JUST MEANS YOU LIKE THE SOUND OF YOUR OWN VOICE.
> ...



Scott r wrote..."I know that several people do donate money to save some acreage, but others pump the frogs full of drugs to increase egg counts so they can pump out more $300 frogs."

I also know of a lot of people who donate, please tell me of these wonder drugs that "increase egg counts", becuase I know of none and nobody doing this in the dart hobby. But I have not been in the hobby for 20 years either. What drugs are they using?

I was not one of those who praised that mixed tank. But the person who did it has a lot more experience than 90% of those that frequent this forum. So, I think it was at least well thought out. Unlike most of the other mixed vivs. 
You are correct though, a high post count , or even many years in the hobby do not guarantee any kind of success , or positive actions for our darts.



Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

scott r said:


> Zach,
> I read your post to pm. However, I will make this post publicly, as I am not attacking you or anyone else on this site.
> My first pc of advise in this thread was that the 200 gallon tank be put in storage until the original poster had gained the knowledge and experience to properly set up the enclosure to meet the needs of the animals to be housed. SEE POST # 5
> As I stated, my previous post was not directed at you. There are alot of very knowledgeable members here that do not post very often, that would be a great source of information. Charles Powell for one. Chuck has over 20 years of experience, has experience with mixed tanks, and has a low post count.
> ...


The problem is Scott, Nathan is at the point right now that he needs help setting up his first non-mixed tank. So even talking about a mixed tank is something that should be put aside for now. He needs basic instruction, and experience with quarantine, fecals, and other beginner topics, not advanced mixing.

Rich


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Rich, 
I totally agree that he needs to gain the experience. And, I stand corrected. Nathan may not of made up his mind, but I perceive that he is going to set up this tank. And while I agree that he should wait, I feel that when the time comes, help will be more benefical than not to the health of the frogs in this enviroment.

As to the drug, I am referring to the synthetic form of corticosterone used to induce breeding since the early 90's. By egg count, I meant eggs per year not eggs per clutch. I should of been more clear. 
The animals life cycle is one fifth what it would be because of the injections.

Nathan,
Zach was not referring to Auratus as a member of the tinc family, but as a member of the tinc group. See below. And while auratus and luecs will co exist, they will also readily breed with each other. I have seen several cases of this. So, while I will not discourage you, I will say you need to wait and learn a bit.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

scott r said:


> Rich,
> I totally agree that he needs to gain the experience. And, I stand corrected. Nathan may not of made up his mind, but I perceive that he is going to set up this tank. And while I agree that he should wait, I feel that when the time comes, help will be more benefical than not to the health of the frogs in this enviroment.
> 
> As to the drug, I am referring to the synthetic form of corticosterone used to induce breeding since the early 90's. By egg count, I meant eggs per year not eggs per clutch. I should of been more clear.
> ...


I guess I am still a bit confused on a few issues.
I think we would be putting the cart before the horse when giving info over the head of a new frogger yet to go through a first quarantine. 

I'd like to see some citation on the use of this drug, synthetic corticosterone, and the number of froggers using it to "pump up eggcounts on $300 darts", by your guess. since I have found not one mention of it in a search through either Frognet's archives or Dendroboard's, and never heard it mentioned before today, I am interested in more info about this _drug being used on darts_.

You mention auratus and leucs "are of the same group" here , and the fact they can/will breed together, and yet in a mixing thread you started not so long ago you state; 

"So, when talking about setting up a naturalistic vivarium, why is it unthinkable that a viv with plenty of floor space as well as vertical space could house red eyes,pumilio, and auratus, or vents, tincs, and luecs. As well as some of the other small tree frogs from the specific region."

knowing full well that the tincs, luecs, and auratus can and will hybridize? Is it OK to produce hybrids in your mixed tanks?

I guess with the statements about our greed (drug use unknown to me) , selfishness by keeping these animals , warnings against certain mixes in one thread, but being a proponent of this in another, and such there really does not seem to be a coherent direct line to this.

Rich


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

First off, I have never stated I was opposed to mixing. I am all for it. 

And you will see I said keeping redeyes and pumilio with one of the following not all of the following.

Is it Ok to produce Hybrids in a mixed species tank. YES. Is it responsible to introduce them back into the hobby, NO.

Crossbreeding is one of the risks of a mixed tank.

As far as the drugs, Since you are a vet, do your homework.

Studies were first conducted on old world frogs, then rainfrogs, then harlequin toads, then PDFs.

Helmut Zimmerman, Vosjoli, and Luuc Bauer have all spoken of the use of drugs to induce breeding of wild caught species in captivity.
While I realize that none of these men hold a candle to your credentials, they all are pioneers in this hobby.

And yes, it is selfish of us to keep these frogs in small enclosures. But everyone does so, myself included.

Your arrogant attitude is exactly what I was warning Nathan about.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

OK guy's it all seems to be a little heated in this thread.. lets keep it calm to a degree. 

And no Rich is not a vet his brother David is.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

ZBrinks, I am not saying you are bashing me. Since I've started this thread I don't think anyone has bashed me. Everyone been pretty nice, and has either given their opinion or given some suggestions. What I ment was when people ask talk about mixing a tank, usually everyone is against it. But thanks for sharing your story and knowledge. Scott r, thanks for clearing up my question about leuc, tincs, and auratus interbreeding. Although ZBrinks told me they could interbreed, I was told by someone else that they can't, so I wanted to clearify this.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

scott r said:


> Your arrogant attitude is exactly what I was warning Nathan about.


Fight! 
Fight!
Fight!

... Oh, wait, no fighting is allowed. Disagreement and discussion are fine, even encouraged. Ad hominem is not. Rich has kept it impersonal, please attempt to do the same.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

My post was in no way an attack on Mr. Frye. 

However, there was a post made recently by a new member concerning him being bashed everytime he posted something not mainstream thought.

Just because it is not what you know or have been told does not make it WRONG.

Crazy Ideas.........

Ultrasonic humidifier fogger
Seeding tank with bugs (overfeeding used to be bad idea)
Kitty litter in the soil
100% sealed tanks
Fan inside the viv
Rotting leaves and vegatables in the viv.

Crazy once but now the norm.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

scott r said:


> First off, I have never stated I was opposed to mixing. I am all for it.
> 
> And you will see I said keeping redeyes and pumilio with one of the following not all of the following.


I did miss that distinction that you wanted to mix Redeyes, pumilio and _only_ one other species, my bad. Also your's though, in my mind. 


scott r said:


> Is it Ok to produce Hybrids in a mixed species tank. YES. Is it responsible to introduce them back into the hobby, NO.


No, it is not Ok, in the expert minds of the hobby. We can poll what "expert" means, but 90% of the hooby (a poll) is against it. The reasons have been gone over again and again. Once produced they are "in the hobby". This is the kind of mixed message I am talking about. You produce them , you own them. Or you can kill them I suppose. All bad options. 



scott r said:


> Crossbreeding is one of the risks of a mixed tank.


Yes, and why do use the term risk if production is OK with you??



scott r said:


> As far as the drugs, Since you are a vet, do your homework.


...again, no, I am not. You cited the drug, now please point me to the info so I can read about all the use of it. 



scott r said:


> Studies were first conducted on old world frogs, then rainfrogs, then harlequin toads, then PDFs.
> 
> Helmut Zimmerman, Vosjoli, and Luuc Bauer have all spoken of the use of drugs to induce breeding of wild caught species in captivity.
> While I realize that none of these men hold a candle to your credentials, they all are pioneers in this hobby.


What studies? What credentials of mine are you talking about? For someone in the hobby for 20 years I would have to guess you may have understood that I am not the vet . My brother is. But please let me know where I can read about all these hobbyists using the drug you cite. Your statement is not correct. Nobody I know, and you can name one if you like/can, is using this drug, as you describe. Prove your statement please.



scott r said:


> And yes, it is selfish of us to keep these frogs in small enclosures. But everyone does so, myself included.
> 
> Your arrogant attitude is exactly what I was warning Nathan about.


You are absolutely welcome to your opinion. As to what constitutes a "small enclosure", that is another discussion. I have actually used a 600+ gallon viv for four pumilio. One morph, one species. 
One definition of the word "arrogant" is "to enter into a situation with the assumption of superiority". If I happen to feel superior to those hybridizing ,and passing along that deed as OK, so be it, tag me arrogant. Big deal. But I'm not sure how warning Nathan that I am arrogant is pertinent to this thread.

The bottom line is that no, it is not OK to hybridize, and if you have to ask questions about mixing , you are not ready to attempt it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to mix . Hundreds ask about it , all the time, all the time, all the time. The knowledge is out there, the info posted hundreds of times on boards everywhere. Every once in awhile someone who has been mixing for years feels the need to tell everyone it is OK and hybrids are Ok, and it is just not the case for the hobby. 
Read my signature please. Refute it if you can.

With that, I am done with this because it really has all been posted , polled, and beaten to death. Scott, If you have any good hard facts on up-to-date drug info about the drug cited then please pass along that info, but I doubt it is relevant to the hobby today, but rather historical in nature. I doubt it is a good tactic to expound how others in the hobby are doing all kinds of nasty, selfish, greedy things in order to downplay things like hybrids and attempting mixing before you are ready for even much simpler vivs. Again, I'm not the vet, so I need to be coddled a bit when it comes to my drug homework.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Rich, I know I'm newer to this hobby, that is why I am trying to gain as much information as I can. Scott was just trying to help me get some answers, rather then the usually suggestions of "don't do it", or just get 1 species. I am pretty open minded, and am in no rush to get this tank up and running. Maybe if I learn all the problems associated with having a mixed tank I might change my mind? Or even if I don't change my mind, wouldn't it be better if I have more knowledge about mixing tanks, then not to know anything? Anyways, I am FAR from setting up my tank, and am still going to do a LOT more research. I guess I was hoping to find out all the facts and problems that I might run into, helpful hints and suggestions, etc. and then decide if it's all worth it to try to do, instead of just being told "don't do it".


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I understand Nathan. I just don't see any upside for the frogs.
But there are a lot of threads on this and by researching more you will find quite a bit fact. Read through as many mixing thread as you can.
Good luck,
Rich


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Ok, firstly, I am man enough to apoligize to Rich, so Rich please except my apoligy.

I think you and I just misunderstand one another.

Am I for Hybridization? No, which is why I stated it was irresponsible to introduce such animals into the hobby. But there is great potential for hybrids in a mixed tank, and culling may be necessary. Sucks but that the risk.

The red-eyes and pumilio with a member of the tinc group was in reference to the original post. Not a desire of mine.

The little rain frogs of the family Leptodactylidae, the harlequin toads of the family Atelopus, and some of the smaller Hyla species MAY be able to co exist with PDFs without the hazards of crossbreeding. 
However, now you have to consider pathogens, parasites, etc. that are harmless to one species but not the other.

And you have the little mourning gecko that had alot of people rethinking their stance on the issue recently when they read on a member's site they would coexist with dart frogs.

My only stance is that a person who is informed is a person that will be able to make better decisions. 

Whenever the issue comes up, and yes it does come up alot, the thread is full of blunt NOs. And I mostly agree with this until enough experience is gained. But I believe it better to say these are the risks 1,2,3, etc. Not just No.


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Okay, if I try to mix azureus, mentellas, and galactonotus, these species can't interbreed right? Since I found out that azureus, leuc, and auratus are all tincs and can interbreed, I had to rethink what frogs I want to try to mix, if any. Also anyone know what kind of personalities mentellas and galactonotus have? I know the azureus are very bold frogs and can be aggressive.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Nathan,
While I believe that you may be able to properly set up a nice mixed tank in the future with the 200 gallon tank you have, I think you need to put this out of your mind until you have gained alot more experience.
Watch the frogs you have and keep notes on everything you observe. Read as much information as you can. Order back issues of Vivarium, Reptilian, and Het Paludarium that have articles on PDFs and vivariums. Search for articles written by Helmut and Elke Zimmerman on PDFs. Charles Powell is another source of great information.

See, you are thinking, and that is good. But, you don't have enough information to make wise decisions at this point.
Yes, you have removed the risk of cross breeding species of the same group with your new choices. However, Mantella are old world frogs that hail from Madagascar. So, now you have a risk of parasites and pathogens and other problems. 
So, this is a bad choice as well.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

scott r said:


> Ok, firstly, I am man enough to apoligize to Rich, so Rich please except my apoligy.
> 
> I think you and I just misunderstand one another.
> 
> ...



No need to apologize Scott. No biggie. I understand what you are saying.

Rich


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## nathan23 (Sep 5, 2008)

Scott, thanks for the info. Yes I will be reading more and doing more research. As for cross breeding, another way to solve this problem is to get all males or all female frogs. But I would prefer to have couples of each species. Like I've said numerous times, I am in no rush to set up this tank and will probably take over a year to do it. But in the mean time, I want to gather as much information and knowledge as I can. If I just put this in the back of my mind and don't get the information I need, then I may never have the knowledge to get the proper set up, or make a good decision. So as I ask these questions, it's only for my research and to expand my knowledge. It's not so I can RUSH out and buy the frogs and throw them in together. Anyways I thank you for any information or knowledge you can share. =O).


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## longliveledzeppelin (Jul 4, 2009)

get a etb can safely live with darts


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Hi Nathan and welcome,

I usually stay out of the mixing/hybridizing debates because everyone usually has a strong opinion, and I have yet to see anyone ever change their mind mid-debate. I have been involved in PDF's for 3 or 4 years, but kept/bred snakes professionally for the last 10+ (and many many snake hobby years before that) and let me tell you, we have been dealing with the whole mixing/hybrid issue on a level that makes the most heated frog-talk look civil.

The following is my opinion.

In both hobbies (fish too, now that I think about it) it seems new hobbyists almost ALWAYS make a few assumptions that aren't necessarily true.

1. That they will somehow enjoy a mixed tank more than a single species tank.
2. That the joy they get out of the tank is somehow proportional to number of animals they can fit into it.
3. That by hybridizing animals, they will create something totally new that they or others find amazing looking, valuable, or just totally cool. 

You will see when you have a few tanks set-up, the first questions anyone not familiar with PDF's will ask you is "Can those breed with those? What would happen? Can you fit more frogs in there?"...almost without exception.

You are going to do whatever you are going to do, my only suggestion is consider those 3 questions, factor in the fact that anything you are are dead sure of is suspect because you haven't actually kept PDF's yet, get satisfying answers, and then if your absolutely sure of the "why's", go with your decision.

The way I look at it is that mixing species is like catching a baseball in your teeth, sure...It can be done, but considering the risks, why? The best that can happen is you get away with it. The worst... That being said, there ARE people who I respect on this board that are "pro-mixing" who have impressive track records and who I believe are probably doing it successfully. But even though I have successfully kept/bred very difficult animals over the years, and had them thrive, I would not consider myself expert enough to mix frogs. It takes an attention, and an understanding of behavioral subtlety that take years to acquire. My suggestion is that you get a smaller tank, put a pair of bold large PDF's in it, enjoy keeping/breeding for a year or two, then decide what to do with the 200 gallon viv.

Also, it's very very hard to make hard and fast statements about what will/won't be able to produce offspring. In the last 5 years we have seen hybrids in the snake community that no one thought were possible. Hybrids in themselves are not evil, but it's every froggers nightmare that PDF's could become like corn snakes in the hobby, where you don't know WHAT you have. 

Good Luck.


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