# Water Holes/Puddles Necessary & How To Build Waterfall?



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Is a puddle/swimming-hole/waterfall completely necessary to have in a vivarium for Darts? I plan to have patches of sphagnum moss scattered around the terrarium and it will be kept very moist. I also plant to have a Reptifogger to keep the humidity up. I'll have at least one small bromeliad whose cup I will fill with water whenever needed. 

I would _like_ to incorporate a waterfall into the tank design, however I can't think of a way to make one and I don't want to do something extremely difficult. Plus I'm on a budget, so if it costs a lot I probably won't be able to do it. The tank is a 12" x 12" hexagon (the back wall is 12" x 12".) I'm not sure exactly what a false bottom does either. I think a trickling waterfall would be nice. I plan to use the "Great Stuff - Black Silicone - Peat Moss" method of building a landscape for the terrarium. Here's my questions for building a waterfall: 

*1. What are all of the steps in the circuit of the waterfall?
2. Which pump is best for a trickle, or what pump should I use?
3. How do I hide the pump behind the landscape?
4. How do I prevent my frogs from getting into the pump?
5. How do I clean the pump when needed?
6. What does a false bottom do? Do I need it? How would I use it?
7. Please tell me anything else I need to know about making a waterfall!*

If somebody could post step-by-step instructions on making a waterfall it would be so greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance for any help you can give me!


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Dart frogs do not need any pond or water bowl or anything like that. As long as you mist their viv enough and keep it humid they will be fine. When people build waterfalls and ponds in their vivs, its usually just for their own pleasure.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Exactly..they don't drink water and they don't want to swim. They only use water to deposit tadpoles. The only way you'll see your frogs in the water is for disease and if you use a screen top and don't have the humidity sealed in. Wet is not humid. 

For some reason, it's only rookies in this hobby that are so concerned about foggers and water features right off the bat. Some of my tanks I forget to mist but I know the glass top and planted tank will not dry out and humidity stays high.

Don't over think it. Glass top is what you need. Dart frogs like the humidity in the air, not a wet environment.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

DJboston said:


> Exactly..they don't drink water and they don't want to swim. They only use water to deposit tadpoles. The only way you'll see your frogs in the water is for disease and if you use a screen top and don't have the humidity sealed in. Wet is not humid.
> 
> For some reason, it's only rookies in this hobby that are so concerned about foggers and water features right off the bat. Some of my tanks I forget to mist but I know the glass top and planted tank will not dry out and humidity stays high.
> 
> Don't over think it. Glass top is what you need. Dart frogs like the humidity in the air, not a wet environment.


Great advice here... I'd take it. Waterfalls are great looking, soothing to hear, but do nothing other than please you, the viewer. I take that back, A trickling water feature can help to raise humidity, but it is simply not needed if you are housing them correctly to begin with. A sealed top and a good misting regimen will be all you need to maintain humidity. Best of luck! Share build pics if you want! We will look, lol!

JBear


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks for the quick replies! I'll build an acrylic cover for the tank to lock the humidity in. I'll ditch the idea of any fogger, too. I'll also keep the environment moist instead of having a water puddle. If my darts ever decide to breed, will the lay their eggs in bromeliad cups or would I need to supply them with a water dish or something?


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I wouldn't say they will ONLY soak if they are sick.. My female azureus like to soak quite a bit. And she seems perfectly fine, and has produced TONS of good froglets.


DJboston said:


> Exactly..they don't drink water and they don't want to swim. They only use water to deposit tadpoles. The only way you'll see your frogs in the water is for disease and if you use a screen top and don't have the humidity sealed in. Wet is not humid.
> 
> For some reason, it's only rookies in this hobby that are so concerned about foggers and water features right off the bat. Some of my tanks I forget to mist but I know the glass top and planted tank will not dry out and humidity stays high.
> 
> Don't over think it. Glass top is what you need. Dart frogs like the humidity in the air, not a wet environment.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Water dishes aren't essential, but I do use them in many of my vivs. Sometimes the frogs like to soak in them.

Good luck, Richard.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

heatfreakk3 said:


> I wouldn't say they will ONLY soak if they are sick.. My female azureus like to soak quite a bit. And she seems perfectly fine, and has produced TONS of good froglets.


I agree, many darts will enter marginal areas with regularity. I was referring to the fact that they will never want to go for a swim... If the water is higher than the elbows of the forelimbs, it is not needed. My Tincs enjoy standing on the river rocks that are in the water basin. The water itself is trapped under a mound of smooth comercial river rocks, but they can dip their butts in...

JBear


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm planning to keep Azureues. Do those like to sit and soak? I could easily build a shallow water hole into the landscape since I'll be working with the "Great Stuff - Black Silicone - Peat Moss" method.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I put a puddle in my tank for easy drainage. Once again, more for me than the frogs


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

PeanutbuttER said:


> I put a puddle in my tank for easy drainage. Once again, more for me than the frogs


Ah, okay I get what you mean. Would you recommend I build my landscape to where it drains water into a small puddle? Then the frogs could have a place to chill and I could easily siphon out the water when needed.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

If you read my earlier posts I said my female azureus LOVES soaking  all frogs are different though. Some my love soaking like mine, some my never go in (like my male azureus(


Percularis said:


> I'm planning to keep Azureues. Do those like to sit and soak? I could easily build a shallow water hole into the landscape since I'll be working with the "Great Stuff - Black Silicone - Peat Moss" method.


Yes I agree with you as well. Darts are big swimmers. Mine just like to dip their butts in just like yours  lol. Sometimes she goes All the way in to when she is having a real good day ha. I also use river stones at the bottom of my pond. When she stands on them her head sticks perfectly right above the water.


jbherpin said:


> I agree, many darts will enter marginal areas with regularity. I was referring to the fact that they will never want to go for a swim... If the water is higher than the elbows of the forelimbs, it is not needed. My Tincs enjoy standing on the river rocks that are in the water basin. The water itself is trapped under a mound of smooth comercial river rocks, but they can dip their butts in...
> 
> JBear


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I have some type of pond in every one of my breeder tanks. The frogs always go sit in the water when they are breeding. The female will lay eggs and go soak while the male fertilizes them and then he goes to soak and goes back to hydrate the eggs. I know many breeders who do not have any type of water in their breeder tanks and have great success. I just feel that since the frogs regularly use it....maybe it's a good thing.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

heatfreakk3 said:


> I wouldn't say they will ONLY soak if they are sick.. My female azureus like to soak quite a bit. And she seems perfectly fine, and has produced TONS of good froglets.


Your right...but usually when this happens with someones first frogs, it's because the tank is too dry and they're trying to maintain moisture. 

I didn't mean to say for all dart frogs. Obviously there are exceptions to it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Percularis said:


> I'll build an acrylic cover for the tank to lock the humidity in.


Acrylic won't lock diddly squat in. Acrylic will warp with the high humidity of a viv. That makes for frog jerky on the floor in front of the viv. You need a glass lid (inexpensive) or a Lexan lid (expensive). Please!! No Acrylic lids.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

This guy is going to be so confused lol. 5 threads and he has to remember tons of posts and info. 

Search engine is your friend dude! We shouldn't have to hold every new person's hand on how to start their first tank. There's so many aspects that 10 threads on each area of study is not going to help. You need to start slow and do some good research the old fashioned way. You won't learn overnight and there's no rush. You should be setting up your tank and getting your flies going. Learn the basics and don't even think about getting frogs for a couple months, maybe 3!!! Sorry but you have the rest of your life to get frogs and dart frogs are not corn snakes or leopard geckos. You need to do your research first. Seems we get a new person every day asking the same questions over and over! I'm about ready to bail on the general discussion and beginner forum because it's getting old fast. Sorry to be harsh....just trying to explain why research is best.

Good luck!!


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Acrylic won't lock diddly squat in. Acrylic will warp with the high humidity of a viv. That makes for frog jerky on the floor in front of the viv. You need a glass lid (inexpensive) or a Lexan lid (expensive). Please!! No Acrylic lids.


The tank I was gonna put them in is acrylic. Is that a no-no?


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

acrylic tanks have a saying - you can scratch em just by staring at them. basically - they work but scratch super easy and every scratch will stand out


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

So if this tank isn't gonna work out due to the sole fact that it is too small for a pair of Azureus (plus it's acrylic), then I guess I'm back to looking for a terrarium. Does anyone have suggestions? I don't have lots of space, so I'm thinking 12" x 12" x 18". I know Zoo Med and Exo Terra make those. Is one better than the other? And since it comes with a screen top, would I need to replace it with glass?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Percularis said:


> The tank I was gonna put them in is acrylic. Is that a no-no?


An acrylic tank is different from an acryli lid. An acrylic tank is joined at the edges to other pieces of acrylic. It all locks together with acrylioc glues. This keeps it from warping. An acrylic lid is just flat and has no reinforcement. Even a thick 3/8" acrylic lid will eventually warp.
That said, you can use an acrylic tank, but I hate them with a passion! Hunter is totally right. Did you know that even your fingernail can scratch and mar it? Even a terrycloth towel or a paper towel will add micro swirls to it.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Based on what others have said, I don't think the tank will be big enough for a pair of Azureus because it's only 8 gallons. Would there be any possibility of using the tank even if I made the bottom area flat with only moss on it so they would have maximum hopping area, or should I just ditch this tank and go for something with a bigger floor area?


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Ditch the tank..no one is going to agree this dinky thing is good enough. You should of ditched it the minute someone said no. Fine for juvis but not adults.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Ditch the idea of using it for adults, but keep it for froglets.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

If you DO keep it for the potentiality of offspring, keep it with a false bottom, plants, microfauna, leaf litter, etc. I would keep this tank functional for sure.

1. It will be WELL established if breeding occurs.
2. You can use it as a plant nursery.
3. You can opt to use it as a QT tank if suddenly needed.
4. You can culture certain isopods in it if pops get too large(instead of toilet treatment, lol)
5. You can learn from the build itself. Many times, after a viv has been JUST completed I get the best ideas that should have happened 8 steps ago.... LMAO!

As you can see, there are many reasons to keep a spare functioning viv on the side...

JBear


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Will a 12" x 12" x 18" be okay for an adult pair? The floor of it will be pretty much flat and covered in moss so that the frogs have maximum hopping area. I'll put lots of ledges along the back for them to climb on.

I'll set the acrylic tank up for offspring when the frog I get are adults. I have very limited space and I don't even know where I'd put a second vivarium.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

12x12" is not enough floor space. At least a ten gallon for an adult pair, which is still small. That's 20x12. You need to start looking into larger tanks. Height means nothing for tincs unless it's decorative or has different levels for them to use. They're terrestrial. More terrestrial floor space is needed, then you can do whatever you want as far as height is concerned.

Honestly dude, it doesn't sound like you've looked at a basic caresheet on this forum yet. Please take a look as it will simplify things for you rather than asking every time if something is ok or not. Best to figure it out on your own and then save the questions for the really important hard to find info.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Percularis said:


> Will a 12" x 12" x 18" be okay for an adult pair? The floor of it will be pretty much flat and covered in moss so that the frogs have maximum hopping area. I'll put lots of ledges along the back for them to climb on.
> 
> I'll set the acrylic tank up for offspring when the frog I get are adults. I have very limited space and I don't even know where I'd put a second vivarium.


All Tincs are far more terra prone. All that vertical space is basically wasted. Go with a 20 gal long to start. Azies are just a morph of a Tinc, both being rather large dart frogs. You will find a broad floor space will be far better utilized by them than any vertical space. Go with something larger for your pair. You will appreciate seeing them USE the space more than watching them live in a corner. 

JBear


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

As I said, space is extremely limited. If I went with a 10 gallon 20" x 12", would I have to make my own glass cover or do the sell glass covers for those? I looked on a few websites and only found 20" x 10".


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

You can get glass cut at lowes. Of course they make fish tank lids for a 10 gallon. You've never kept fish or other reptiles before? If not, I'd suggest starting with something else before delving into dart frogs just yet. Don't stop reading about them, but it doesn't sound like you're too familiar with the pet trade industry. 

If you're content on getting into dart frogs, just do some research. Limited space is a problem as it's not just the tank you need space for. You need space for extra supplies, some place to store fruit fly cultures every month. A culturing kit alone with all the media, cups, lids, and starter cultures is going to cost you $50 to get going and you have to make cultures weekly. You stated that you don't want to use fruit flies but your only other option is pinhead crickets and they need to be ordered weekly and that will cost a lot with shipping. $100 a month maybe sometimes less. Also, consider that every six months you'll need to buy a supplement online as usually the good ones aren't in stores besides repcal and herpvite, but even those aren't enough sometimes. Even though the label has an expiration date, they're losing a lot after 6 months and have to be discarded. You need to keep track of that,

If you find a free 15 gallon tank, you'll be spending another 60-70 on supplies, $50 on fruit fly culture kit, $20 or so on glass top, lighting unit could be $20-50. A lot of stuff to consider. Then the frogs with shipping is another $200 or more for a sexed pair or $40 each for froglets.

You mentioned you were on a budget so thought you should know. Most likely you'll mess up on fruit flies for a while and you'll pay $30 or so every month to get new cultures in the mail and anxiously wait for them while your frogs are out of food. They should be fed daily as froglets as well.

Sound like you're still interested? lol If so, read on and use the search button. It has all the old threads.

D


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Percularis said:


> As I said, space is extremely limited. If I went with a 10 gallon 20" x 12", would I have to make my own glass cover or do the sell glass covers for those? I looked on a few websites and only found 20" x 10".


Aside from glass tops, "Saran" wrap works over any/all types of lids. Serves the same purpuse, but will need replaced every once in a while. I use styrofoam to lift the lighting off of the "Saran". 

JBear


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

DJboston said:


> You can get glass cut at lowes. Of course they make fish tank lids for a 10 gallon. You've never kept fish or other reptiles before? If not, I'd suggest starting with something else before delving into dart frogs just yet. Don't stop reading about them, but it doesn't sound like you're too familiar with the pet trade industry.
> 
> If you're content on getting into dart frogs, just do some research. Limited space is a problem as it's not just the tank you need space for. You need space for extra supplies, some place to store fruit fly cultures every month. A culturing kit alone with all the media, cups, lids, and starter cultures is going to cost you $50 to get going and you have to make cultures weekly. You stated that you don't want to use fruit flies but your only other option is pinhead crickets and they need to be ordered weekly and that will cost a lot with shipping. $100 a month maybe sometimes less. Also, consider that every six months you'll need to buy a supplement online as usually the good ones aren't in stores besides repcal and herpvite, but even those aren't enough sometimes. Even though the label has an expiration date, they're losing a lot after 6 months and have to be discarded.  You need to keep track of that,
> 
> ...


Yes, I've kept fish and frogs before. I've been keeping reef tanks for three years. $500 on a setup with frogs is nothing compared to what I've spent on my saltwater hobby. I've raised tree frogs before from tadpoles and the specific type of tree frog's adult size is around the same size, if not smaller, than darts. And yes, haha I'm still interested, hence my countless hours of research within the past weeks (not just on Dendroboard.) I plan to keep up the research for a few more months before starting my vivarium. As I've stated a few times before, space is limited due to the three saltwater tanks in my room. A 10g would be best for me. I know there are hoods with lids and a space for a light built into them. I didn't think about using those. I'll put one of those in the plan if that will lock in the moisture. BTW, I have a local vivarium store so I can go there if something goes wrong with my food cultures. Just one question...

You mentioned that fruit flies will be the only culture I can use. *Is there something wrong with culturing springtails? If they're slow, couldn't I just get a large starter culture of them so I have a bigger culture?* The reason why I won't be able to get a fruit fly culture is because my mom had fruit flies for a science project in college and they got everywhere, so she said there is no chance of me getting those. If my local vivarium store has pinhead crickets (which I'm sure they do, they have everything else in the world there lol) I could go and get them every weekend, unless a large springtail culture would work.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

If you can't culture fruit flies, you can't keep dart frogs. I doubt she'll let you spend hundreds of dollars on ordering crickets. Pet stores only carry 2 week old crickets for the most part and you need to feed daily.

Spingtails are too small. You can't dust them with supplements either. There's no way a large frog like tincs would be able to survive on springtails alone, nor would you produce enough of them. 

Sounds like you're at a dead end. No fruit flies, no dart frogs dude.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Percularis said:


> *Is there something wrong with culturing springtails? If they're slow, couldn't I just get a large starter culture of them so I have a bigger culture?* The reason why I won't be able to get a fruit fly culture is because my mom had fruit flies for a science project in college and they got everywhere, so she said there is no chance of me getting those. If my local vivarium store has pinhead crickets (which I'm sure they do, they have everything else in the world there lol) I could go and get them every weekend, unless a large springtail culture would work.


There's nothing *wrong* with springtails, they just aren't going to work as the frog's staple diet. You may find that your adult frogs could care less about eating springs. If you can't have flightless fruit flies, you can't keep darts...its really that simple.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

DJboston said:


> If you can't culture fruit flies, you can't keep dart frogs. I doubt she'll let you spend hundreds of dollars on ordering crickets. Pet stores only carry 2 week old crickets for the most part and you need to feed daily.
> 
> Spingtails are too small. You can't dust them with supplements either. There's no way a large frog like tincs would be able to survive on springtails alone, nor would you produce enough of them.
> 
> Sounds like you're at a dead end. No fruit flies, no dart frogs dude.


I told my mom exactly what you said and she said that she would let me culture them as long as that's the only main food they can eat.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Thats good to hear  now get to researchin haha


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