# Do tadpoles require a water change in their setups?



## slipperheads

The topic explains it all, please post based on your _experience_. If they do need a change every now and then;

How much water should be replaced per changed?(old water:new water)
How do I keep the tad from getting disrupted?

- I have no idea what to keep tads in when I get them, can someone explain further on that as well?

Thanks,
William


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## joshsfrogs

Water changes are dependent on feeding frequency and cup size. I use 32 oz cups and feed 1-2 times a week and never do water changes.

Here is what I do with tads: http://www.joshsfrogs.com/breeding.html


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## defaced

> The topic explains it all, please post based on your experience.


That depends on when you ask the question and of whom. Like alot of stuff in this hobby, people find what work for them and this is no different. Right now the current trend per se is to not change the water. When I entered the hobby, it was daily water changes for all. Basically, pick something, and if it works for you, don't change it. If it doesn't work, then start experimenting.


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## slipperheads

joshsfrogs said:


> Water changes are dependent on feeding frequency and cup size. I use 32 oz cups and feed 1-2 times a week and never do water changes.
> 
> Here is what I do with tads: http://www.joshsfrogs.com/breeding.html


Thanks Josh - I was actually on your site searching for the care sheet but was out of my sights 8) .

Thank you also mike


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## Julio

this has been my experience with water changes and non water changes, tads that get water changes grow birgger and faster, but they do not develop or morph out fast as opposed to tads taht are raised in water that is just topped off due to evaporation, so my guess is that there is some sort of chemical that they release, i am not sure what, but who knows.


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## KeroKero

I think the majority of the hobby actually does frequent water changes - even if the talk on here is a trend of less water changing. It really varies from keeper to keeper... 

I know a lot of keepers that change the water completely, a couple hours after feeding. I know some who only change part of the water. Then there are those who don't change the water at all... it has a lot to do with the tadpole set up, feeding and what is being fed. If you feed your tadpoles a food that can foul the water, it is extremely important that you only give enough for the tadpoles to eat in a short amount of time... a lot of people don't manage this and compensate by frequent water changes. I have more permenant set ups with tadpoles rotated through it and feed them nearly nothing (they scavange leaf litter bacteria) and only top off water... but my set ups are a little more complex and need to mature before a tadpole is put in.

For those who have tadpoles grow faster/bigger one way, there is someone with the opposite experience. I know Matt Mirabello morphs monster auratus and tincs... and only tops of water. I originally changed my tadpole care because my froglets were coming out tiny... so I modified so I also don't change water... and get monster froglets. They also morph fast. The differences I feel often have to do with foods... the more food a tadpole gets, the more consistantly it can graze, the bigger it will get. The better the food is for that tadpole the bigger it will get. Matt and I constantly have food in their containers - mostly of the not decaying and degrading the water quality kinds (bacteria slime and leaf litter) so they are ALWAYS eating - even when we don't feed them. They are supplemented with small feedings of other foods, nothing they won't chow down in 20 mins or so. I kept meals to fish flakes the size of the tadpole's body.

Alternatively, if you don't have enough of the alternative non-decaying foods, the tadpoles won't have much to graze on, and won't grow as well as the tadpoles that are constantly fed too much and have frequent water changes. Most of the tadpoles are hardy, they can handle complete water changes because many of them live in tiny little water pockets in the wild that can have the water quality completely change with a rain storm. I know many fish who wouldn't be nearly so forgiving, and I set up my tadpole tanks much like I would set up a sensitive fish's.

Everyone has a different method of water and feeding... its not that easy to try and simplify them.


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## slipperheads

Thanks for that explanations Corey, and following that I have a question. Exactly what leaves are the best for tads to graze on? Would any leaves work? I think I have a good idea of how I will be taking care of my tads now.

Thanks,

William


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## KeroKero

Oak and wild almond are both used... you can either let them sit in water and leach out their tannins and they will eventually be soft enough for munchies (I believe Oz mentioned this in his set ups) or you can boil the leaves to make a concentrated tadpole tea, and the resulting "leaf skeletons" are nice and soft and ready for munching right away. I know the wild almond was specifically recomended to me a long time ago for tads like epipedobates.

I also know that tadpoles often make short work of any leaves that are rotting in the tank off plants... a dying anubias leaf doesn't last long once it hits the water, and I have a curious lack of dead floating plant leaves... they don't mess with the live leaves much but once it goes yellow it's snack time.


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## slipperheads

Thanks Corey, I think new the info has shed some new light on general tadpole care  . I have ordered almost leaves, HBH Tad bites and methylene blue(for eggs) to get myself going. I am expecting those Vents to call soon! Pray for mee! :mrgreen: 

Thanks again,

William


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## Rain_Frog

I change water, and get big tadpoles, but I only do a water change every few weeks.

However, I feed Xenopus food, and that REALLY makes tadpoles get big.


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## KeroKero

Yeah there really isn't any exact science to it... really has to do with what is best for the keeper. I like the lack of water changes but I also put more work into setting it up so it's next to no work when running (much like a fish tank), and I don't overfeed with stuff that will ruin water quality, instead relying on a lot of "food" from the tank... which requires the right balance of tadpoles to container (so they don't over graze). That means more room taken up per tadpole than other systems... but since I don't pull eggs, I tend to get less eggs anyways, I'm not trying to make a frog factory. I love keeping some offspring in tank until they morph as well... something I'm doing for my Theloderma that is working great. They really help keep the water clean :lol: 

If you use wild almond or oak leaves, you can make a concentrated tadpole tea and use that on the eggs instead of the meth blue. I've never actually had to use meth blue... but then again now I just let the frogs do all the work and pull tadpoles after transport if I need to, so I don't interact with the eggs at all.


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## Rain_Frog

i'm curious why dart tads are resistant to dirty, ammonia ridden water.

If I did that with a majority of other species, they'd be curtains quickly.


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## KeroKero

Suprisingly, my water quality actually seems to stay within the safe range for fish, or so my test kit tells me. My tanks are set up like little mini fish tanks so I've got a nitrogen cycle going. I also think they are just adapted to handle a huge range in conditions, and can take the build up as long as it's gradual... I just don't think with proper feeding that it gets up to dangerous levels for them before they are up and out of the water, even if just topped off water in a beer cup. They have adapted to being in tiny little pockets of water... they wouldn't last long if they couldn't take the extreme conditions. Treehole breeding TFs seem to be similar... their water conditions could be crap and they still grow like crazy (plus they feed on the bacteria that grows like crazy because of the ammonia!!). Toss a pond breeder, stream breeder, or large puddle that gets refreshed with every rain, and they won't be able to handle it because they evolved with the cleaner water conditions.


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## Roadrunner

Dirty ammonia ridden water isn`t good for any species I know of. they may be able to tolerate it but it`s never best for growth. Optimal conditions for treehole brooders probably isn`t the bacteria ridden holes they`re in either, they tolerate it better but would probably do better w/ cleaner water just like darts.
The trick to no water changes is achieving a balance. If you feed every other day, the right amount they can eat fish food one day, produce waste and eat the bacteria that eats the nitrogen/ammonia and take all the nutrients out. overload the system w/ waste and they`ll not fare as well. 

One thing I`d like to research w/ tads is possible parasites and difference in #`s with water changes and w/out. If there is anything like hookworm or lugworm able to live in a tad host and have a free living life stage but not able to survive when it changes to a frog there could be a signifigance to water changes that would affect morphing size but not be detectable after morphing. I think coccidia could be passed to tads, not something you want in your collection anyway but changing waters from coccidia tads may keep levels down so you can suppress it in froglets grow them up and produce coccidia free animals w/ the least infection building up in the tads during feeding. Something that may come in handy if lines that are rare in the hobby have to be cleaned.


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## KeroKero

> Optimal conditions for treehole brooders probably isn`t the bacteria ridden holes they`re in either, they tolerate it better but would probably do better w/ cleaner water just like darts.


I agree with everything you've said in your post but this sentence... I just find the logic behind it confusing. Why would the optimum conditions for treehole breeders not be the treeholes they breed in? They and their tadpoles are evolved for that... that's their niche :shock: But like PDFs, treehole breeders have limited water bodies that get flushed with water... their water quality is similar (as in not shitty). It *can* get nasty, and they *can* tolerate it if it has to, but it's not high ammonia all the time. I'm not totally sure how it works but I just don't have high ammonia issues with my PDFs or my treehole breeders. Now give me a puddle breeder, and I've had some serious issues and often have resorted to putting them on filters, while treehole tads are doing dandy in a topped off bucket that at best may get some partial water changes.

I do think there is such a thing as TOO clean with some of these guys... small partial water changes seem to work well, but I just don't see tads getting complete water changes every week doing as well as tads with partial water changes, flooded containers (my preference over partial water changes), or the grungey ponds/tad set ups like Aaron's. It partially may be food, but either the stress or just not having the slightly grungy water may actually be bad... it's like bettas, they like old water... not nutriently bad water, but older, grungy water for best fins. Gotta hit that balance.

Not sure about the parasites... is there another intermediate host like snails involved? I just dont' know enough about them. I could see how parasites would be a lot harder to control in an established ecosystem tadpole set up vs. a clinically clean set up that requires constant changes (which would also keep the population down just by removing the free stages).


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## Roadrunner

> i'm curious why dart tads are resistant to dirty, ammonia ridden water.


I read that as why tads do well in dirty ammonia ridden water, either way.
I wasn`t accusing yours of being that way.

I have seen milkfrogs and such do well in clean water being fed fish food. I imagine they`d do better w/ water changes and such because ammonia or hi nitrogen that may occur in their treeholes may inhibit growth. though they accomodate it it may not be optimal conditions. Optimal conditions has nothing to do w/ what they`ve adapted to be able to handle to exploit niches but what conditions produce the healthiest animals for our purpose, to keep them alive a long time and possibly reproduce them. Very different from adapting to exploit habitat. It may be the only thing they can do to compete. Maybe they are too explosive of a breeder in puddles and tend to overpopulate when their own cannibalistic tads don`t keep the population down, it`s not really my area but there are lots of possibilities.
I`ve only seen good results when cleaning up what they are used to. I had the biggest froglets ever on full water changes w/ dart tads of all species 3-4 times a week. The water was about 24 hrs out of the tap in most cases. I only don`t do water changes now because we have well water and I go get chlorinated water for the tads now in 5 gallon buckets.
Also why I`m getting rid of my mossy frogs. It`s getting to be summer and I can`t change 5 gal of water 2x a week w/ the adults and 5 gal a week to 10 for every 10 tads i have. The tads get too big, take too long, and eat too much and I had issues w/ one group I never got to changing for 2 weeks or more. They may be able to be balanced and allow for less water changes but too much for me to deal w/ now.


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## KeroKero

I think we may have to agree to not see eye to eye on this because it sounds like our different ideas of optimal conditions have to do with having different goals for our tadpoles, plus a slightly different idea of "clean" water.

Milk frogs can be a bit of a challenge when your goal is to raise as many as possible out of what you're given when that's not how nature set them up... they are canabalistic due to lack of foods in their treehole niche, and evolved to eat everything with a preference on each other. While they feed on each other they also feed on subsequent clutches laid by their parents in the same treehole - litrally feeder eggs. I've seen some nice milk frogs raised on fish food and what not, but the best just out of the just out of the water examples I've seen were ones that were allowed to eat each other and eggs because the breeder didn't want to deal with more than a few hundred rather than the 1500 initial clutch plus later clutches. I don't think this is a water quality topic as much as a food one. I don't think it's safe to assume there is any growth inhibiting from chemical levels in treeholes when we don't have evidence to prove the validity of either of those statements (and what little I know about it seems to be inclined that those statements are not actually the case).

Does anyone actually have measurements from their tadpoles of ammonia and nitrates and how well they've done with them? I've had some phenomenal growth from tadpoles that I swore the water must be chemically nasty due to lack of changes just to find when tested that it's healthy water. I'm not doing water changes on my theloderma tads and I'm not having issues with them... I actually had more water quality issues in the tanks before tads were in the water than after (maybe it's the plants I use and the lack of rotting things in the tank). There are just too many variables in water and how we set our animals up to really agree on much of anything.


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## Rain_Frog

I think we need to do a controlled experiment.

However, I have killed tinc tadpoles multiple times by water changes. For me, it's better to only suck the poop off the bottom and do a water top off.

I have noticed that Mantella ebenaui tadpoles are pretty resilent to fluctuations in water quality, as long as you use RO water and RO right and not straight tap water (which caused spindly).


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## KeroKero

Ok, came across something interesting that may explain why I have low ammonia in my water (if it's true...) related to the wild almond leaves...

"Recommended for all fresh water fishes kept in small containers without filters, specially during transportation."
"Contains chemical that will bind with ammonia in the water."
"Lowers the pH of the water and absorbs harmful chemicals. "

I use these with all my tadpoles... I wonder if that's why I'm having such a low occurance of the "dangerous" chemicals and thus why I'm getting away with no water changes where others are forced to due to water quality?


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## UmbraSprite

Couple of things based on the above responses:

1. Many of these "tree holes" get frequent influx of water from rain...diluting any waste in the environment. 

2. If a tadpole was killed by water changes it was likely due to chlorine in the water. I use tap that has sat for at least 24 hours and have never had a problem.


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## KeroKero

Well... tree holes are problematic... they get flooded by rain a lot, but that doesn't mean there is actualy a decent percentage of water change... The top level gets a nice fresh flush of water, but the deeper well of the tree hole doesn't actually get much of a change, nothing even vaguely as dramatic as a half to full water change. Smaller holes are more likely to get larger changes in water, but then again would be less likely to hold many tads and thus not used (plus if tadpoles can get flushed out - that's bad!).

I've not had tadpoles die from water changes, but there is the theory that the full water changes can be rather stressful for the little guys, as well as the sudden mass change in water quality, and the stress can result in smaller tads. As for the chlorine comment... very true, but I now also recomend treating with dechlorinator anyways since some water treatment plants use chloromines which do not dissapate from the water like the chlorine does.


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## Roadrunner

What do you think happens in a brom? Rapid change of stale warm water w/ cold clean water from above. They know how to hunker down while water is spilling out the top of the brom.
The best tads I ever raised had frequent water changes and the water was about 50f that replaced and 65 for reg temps. They never ate their poop because it went thru screen bottoms. I think this quick change toughtens them up for the future, a little shock keeps them acclimated for bigger fluxes in their env. I`ve also used chlorinated water strait from the tap in a bind for water changes when I was in the city. No ill effects. I think people sometimes have weak tads and they die during something that`s routine for others and attribute it to sensativity to that condition. 
As for the tads eating eggs and tads i`m not saying that isn`t their best nutrition I just thiink that nitrogen and ammonia accross the board affect growth rates and they may do better cleaner. I`d have to work w/ them to come to any conclusions. I know that the env is changing and some species will adapt and for some their env has been degrading for them since we left the last ice age( lack of standing dead wood, conversion to no old growth forests, forest breaks ruining habitat, etc,etc.). this is where optimal conditions for said species is not what actual env conditions are heading for. they have adapted to where they can and their env keeps changing, this is where captive conditions can be manipulated back to optimal till a new area or niche can be found for new introductions or where they will fare better in captivity than their degrading environment.


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## Rain_Frog

I did use chlorine remover, even with RO water. I always, regardless if it's distilled or tap, use dechlorinated.

Remember, only a few died. I think it could be the rapid change in water chemistry, because I did nearly a full water change. I don't do that anymore.


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## Roadrunner

As I said, my best tads came from full water changes every other day w/ sometimes chlorinated water. 
W/ R.O. and distilled you definately don`t need dechlor as they don`t have any impurities or chemicals in them.


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## Julio

Aaron, was there any correlation between the tads got the RO water vs tap water? as far as how fast and how big they morphed out?


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## Roadrunner

I`ve never used R.O. water or distilled for tads. Only chlorinated city water.


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## Julio

IME, they do not, although they will grow faster and morph out bigger when given water changes, you also get more SLS, my theory is that they release some kind of phermone or hormone that helps them prevent this.


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## housevibe7

I usually do about 50% water changes only when I see a lot of fecal matter build up. It is only this amount though because that is usually what it takes to get all the poo out.


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## dart_king

I was wondering, what does the pH level of the water the tadpoles are in have to be?


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