# pine needles instead of tree fern fibers



## vjf000 (Jun 14, 2008)

I was wondering if pine needles, if microwaved to kill bacteria, fungus etc, then shredded in food processor, could be used or if anyone has used them instead of tree fern fibers in abg type mixed with kitty litter for their substrate. I wondered since orchid bark is only pine bark anyways. Any thoughts?


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## gootswa (Mar 16, 2011)

You would be better off to boil and then bake them. I don't think that the microwave would get rid of everything, but I am not certain that they are safe at all. Honestly you might as well just get some stick (twigs) just break them up into little pieces and do the same thing. 

I would stay away from pine anything.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

vjf000 said:


> I was wondering if pine needles, if microwaved to kill bacteria, fungus etc, then shredded in food processor, could be used or if anyone has used them instead of tree fern fibers in abg type mixed with kitty litter for their substrate. I wondered since orchid bark is only pine bark anyways. Any thoughts?


I know some people use them as a winter mulch for sarracena, though I forget the exact reason why. But they tend to be rather aromatic, and very acidic. 

making me doubt their suitability


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## ashb (Dec 9, 2009)

Although they may increase the acidity of the soil, I don't think pine needles would be a good idea due to the tannins they leach out. If you do a quick google search, papers will come up about the inhibitory effects of pine tannins on microbes and other soil organisms.


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## vjf000 (Jun 14, 2008)

thanks, i think i'll mix kitty litter, twigs boiled and shredded, large coconut substrate, coir, and leaves on top, no false bottom, maybe some sand too.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

if your looking for something to replace tree fern, I would probably try shredded epiweb, then just cover that substrate with a thin layer of the same mix without it. That way you don't have to worry about your frogs coming into contact with it.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Orchid bark is usually Fir bark. You don't 'need' tree fern in your substrate. Personally, I don't like it. It gives me splinters when I mix up the substrate and I worry that it will poke my frogs too. 

I would stay away from pine.


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## gootswa (Mar 16, 2011)

frogface said:


> Orchid bark is usually Fir bark. You don't 'need' tree fern in your substrate. Personally, I don't like it. It gives me splinters when I mix up the substrate and I worry that it will poke my frogs too.
> 
> I would stay away from pine.


You know I totally forgot that Fir was a type of pine, which I have used many times...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

gootswa said:


> You know I totally forgot that Fir was a type of pine, which I have used many times...


I have too and it didn't really occur to me until this thread. Lots of people recommend orchid bark. Is there another type of orchid bark?


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## gootswa (Mar 16, 2011)

frogface said:


> I have too and it didn't really occur to me until this thread. Lots of people recommend orchid bark. Is there another type of orchid bark?


Not that I know of, but I am sure it's out there somewhere just waiting for some lucky frogger to find it.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Just buy some ABG mix?

From what I understand about pine is that the oils and whatnot can cause breathing issues.
I have a gerbil and I've had guinea pigs and mice.....you can't use pine with these animals due to them developing repiratory issues...even snakes and any other reptiles that you use wood bedding with. You can't use pine anything....
I'd imagine its the same with frogs but worse cause their lungs are smaller....

Why chance it? Just get some ABG mix


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

or just buy treefern fiber.

its cheaper than you think, you just need the right source. 

it runs about $5 per 1/4 cubic foot and the price drops significantly as quantity increases.

try tropicalplantproducts.com

james


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I know some people use them as a winter mulch for sarracena, though I forget the exact reason why.





> and very acidic.


there ya go! 

haha I find it's also great insulation, so it keeps the less hardy species [like VFT's since they are found much farther south than here] from completely freezing...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I did a quick search for ABG mix and it appears that it also uses fir bark. So I guess it's ok?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ashb said:


> Although they may increase the acidity of the soil, I don't think pine needles would be a good idea due to the tannins they leach out. If you do a quick google search, papers will come up about the inhibitory effects of pine tannins on microbes and other soil organisms.


Any worse than the tannins released from peat, sphagnum, ground coconut? All tannins can have an antimicrobial effect. 

As for the acidity mentioned in other posts, how is it more acidic than peat? Peat moss and sphagnum moss are both very acidic with the pH of peat averaging between 3.6 to 4.5.... 

With respect to fir bark in the other posts, good grades of fir bark are steam cleaned and then kiln dried which removes the resins and why people have had success using it with frogs. 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> Any worse than the tannins released from peat, sphagnum, ground coconut? All tannins can have an antimicrobial effect.
> 
> As for the acidity mentioned in other posts, how is it more acidic than peat? Peat moss and sphagnum moss are both very acidic with the pH of peat averaging between 3.6 to 4.5....
> 
> ...


my concern with acidity came from the fact that tree fern is only considered moderately low, or even neutral, in PH. And was assuming that the components were not only picked based on their physical characteristics, but their combined PH profile (which only makes sense with any soil mix)

So replacing something slightly acidic, with something highly acidic, could throw things off a bit


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I flagged it due to the volume of peat and/or sphagnum added to the media. It would have to be more acidic than the peat to be able to change the pH of the media. There are variations on the recipes (see for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38881-abg-mix-recipe.html). 

The real concern is that the reason they use treefern fiber is because it helps maintain an open media as it takes a long time to begin to decompose. Pine needles are going to decompose much much faster resulting in compaction of the substrate. 

Ed


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## momkris (Jul 27, 2011)

I would just use tree fern fibers. A quick Google search (tree fern sale) came up with many places selling it. If you cant find fine just get medium and run it through the blender. Also the microwave is a good way to treat some stuff. I mean it gets hot enough to boil water in 2 minutes so it will kill as much as boiling does.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> I flagged it due to the volume of peat and/or sphagnum added to the media. It would have to be more acidic than the peat to be able to change the pH of the media. There are variations on the recipes (see for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38881-abg-mix-recipe.html).
> 
> The real concern is that the reason they use treefern fiber is because it helps maintain an open media as it takes a long time to begin to decompose. Pine needles are going to decompose much much faster resulting in compaction of the substrate.
> 
> Ed


I was thinking of it more from the angle that the PH of the tree fern might be used to also raise the general PH of the mix.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I was thinking of it more from the angle that the PH of the tree fern might be used to also raise the general PH of the mix.


 pH is a log function and the treefern fiber would have to actually be releasing a base which would uptake and neutralize the humic acids released by the other components. Treefern fiber releases humic acids as well so it isn't going to change the pH. 

Ed


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## Newtnerd (May 4, 2011)

I know it seems silly but how about using tooth picks? It seems like that would accomplish the same goal as the tree fern fiber. It obviously wouldn't be as natural, but tree fern fiber and toothpicks are relatively the same shape and size. Just a thought.

As for those who are saying "just buy some tree fern fiber", I don't think the added expense is the issue here. Tree fern fiber is often collected from non-renewable sources, so finding an alternative that works as well, but can be easily obtained without any negative environmental effects would be great IMO.

Or you could just do what a number of hobbyists are doing now and go with a clay based substrate. It requires a little more work to make, but I prefer it over ABG mix.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> pH is a log function and the treefern fiber would have to actually be releasing a base which would uptake and neutralize the humic acids released by the other components. Treefern fiber releases humic acids as well so it isn't going to change the pH.
> 
> Ed


can you translate that to stupid?


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

What do people think about this product? It uses sponge rock to keep it airy?

Special Orchid Mix-5002 at The Home Depot

From the site: This 8 qt. re-sealable bag of Better-Gro Special Orchid Mix is a rich, organic mixture of western fir bark, hardwood charcoal, and sponge rock to ensure healthy and long-lasting plants. It provides your orchids with the drainage, air flow, and root ventilation they find and thrive on in nature.

I think im gona go get me some..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Newtnerd said:


> I know it seems silly but how about using tooth picks? It seems like that would accomplish the same goal as the tree fern fiber. It obviously wouldn't be as natural, but tree fern fiber and toothpicks are relatively the same shape and size. Just a thought.
> .


The idea behind the use of the tree fern fiber is that it takes a long time to decompose helping the substrate to remain open, toothpicks will degrade fairly quickly in the conditions found in the tanks and allow the substrate to compact. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> can you translate that to stupid?


I can try... 
pH is essentially the negative log of the concentration of the H+ ion in solution and is measured using a logrithmic scale in which each change is a ten fold decrease or increase in the concentration from the preceeding number. Neutral is defined as a reading of 7 and the acidic scale runs down to zero (and with very strong acids in very high concentrations to negatives..). 

The acids found in peat moss and a number of other organic materials are what are classified as weak organic acids in which the important thing to gather is that they all do not react in a manner that releases a H+ ion into water and that the rate of this is defined by a rate (which can be looked up in the CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry or derived through experimentation). Once a weak acid releases the H+ ion it can then act as a base and absorb a H+ ion. When you have a mixture of weak acids the acids that have the greatest ability to release ions do so and those that have a lowered ability tend to remain undisassociated because they tend to absorb a H+ ion as fast as they disassociate. This is also described as a rate equation. So for it to impact the pH towards a lower point on the scale, the acids with the lesser ability would have to exceed the stronger organic acids and to raise the pH, the weaker acid would have to be present as the basic form (as the salt) which would allow it to remove H+ ions from solution reducing the acidity. That is why it is very unlikely to change the pH of the substrate to any degree. 

I tried to simplify it as much as possible and the generalities may not hold once you get further into chemistry but hopefully it helps. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JakkBauer said:


> What do people think about this product? It uses sponge rock to keep it airy?
> 
> Special Orchid Mix-5002 at The Home Depot
> 
> ...


Why not just use turface? 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> I can try...
> pH is essentially the negative log of the concentration of the H+ ion in solution and is measured using a logrithmic scale in which each change is a ten fold decrease or increase in the concentration from the preceeding number. Neutral is defined as a reading of 7 and the acidic scale runs down to zero (and with very strong acids in very high concentrations to negatives..).
> 
> The acids found in peat moss and a number of other organic materials are what are classified as weak organic acids in which the important thing to gather is that they all do not react in a manner that releases a H+ ion into water and that the rate of this is defined by a rate (which can be looked up in the CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry or derived through experimentation). Once a weak acid releases the H+ ion it can then act as a base and absorb a H+ ion. When you have a mixture of weak acids the acids that have the greatest ability to release ions do so and those that have a lowered ability tend to remain undisassociated because they tend to absorb a H+ ion as fast as they disassociate. This is also described as a rate equation. So for it to impact the pH towards a lower point on the scale, the acids with the lesser ability would have to exceed the stronger organic acids and to raise the pH, the weaker acid would have to be present as the basic form (as the salt) which would allow it to remove H+ ions from solution reducing the acidity. That is why it is very unlikely to change the pH of the substrate to any degree.
> ...


lol, it does help, and is much appreciated


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

Ed said:


> Why not just use turface?
> 
> Ed


I don't know should I? The calcium would be beneficial is that what would be good about it? Also not sure its locally available like the stuff at HD. Maybe I can go down to Turner Field if I ask Ted nicely since I used to work for him...

Would there be anything wrong with the product I listed? It says no fertilizers, and its organic.

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Turface can be ordered delivered via UPS ground or you can check Branch Locator to see where the closest dealer carrying it near you is located. 

From the little I could get from the link you posted, it looks like there is insufficient information to tell if it is good or not. 

People (including myself) have used Turface successfully, it is inexpensive, it works long-term..doesn't compact is conducive to plant growth, can be used by itself or as a addition to substrates. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Turface can be ordered delivered via UPS ground or you can check Branch Locator to see where the closest dealer carrying it near you is located.
> 
> From the little I could get from the link you posted, it looks like there is insufficient information to tell if it is good or not.
> 
> ...


Turface can also be used as a base layer to put your homemade clay on top of. I like to lay an inch or so of Turface on top of my false bottom, followed by about an inch of calcium based, homemade, clay substrate.


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

Ed said:


> Turface can be ordered delivered via UPS ground or you can check Branch Locator to see where the closest dealer carrying it near you is located.
> 
> From the little I could get from the link you posted, it looks like there is insufficient information to tell if it is good or not.
> 
> ...


Cool thanks there's a John Deer down the road from my house ill have to check and see if they have it.

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