# tadpole water without indian almond leaves?



## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

hello!

I have tads overdue to being put in the water but I dont have indian almond leaves, could they live without it for a couple of days? 

Thanks, Nick


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Given the distance between species, I'd suspect that 100% of wild Dendrobatid tadpoles who survive to morphing do so without the benefit of indian almond leaf extract. You can substitute any number of tannin-laden items for your tadpole tea, including coconut substrates, live oak leaves, magnolia leaves, black water extract, etc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> Given the distance between species, I'd suspect that 100% of wild Dendrobatid tadpoles who survive to morphing do so without the benefit of indian almond leaf extract. You can substitute any number of tannin-laden items for your tadpole tea, including coconut substrates, live oak leaves, magnolia leaves, black water extract, etc.


Dane, your starting to sound like me... 

some comments 

Ed


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> Dane, your starting to sound like me...
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Logic is infectious.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Why have Indian Almond leaves become the hobby "standard"? I'm terrified to use anything else since the JF protocol has produced 90% success rates... That's a generous estimate - I'd say it's closer to 95% but I don't keep records. If I had to guess I only lose 2 or 3 tadpoles out of 100...

I did just order some black water extract but I'm nervous to start using it but I don't really want to keep a stock of Indian Almond leaves on hand if there is a more environmentally friendly alternative. Shipping special leaves across the country just seems silly to me...


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

I have raised more then enough tadpoles with out any Indian almond leaves, just DI water and nothing else other than tadpole food and they morph out perfectly fine. I dont think its a requirement, it just adds another benefit, but tads will do fine with out it.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I stopped using them only because I ran out so I just started changing 100% of the water every other day with amazing results and everyday with my Standard Lamasi (for all you old time froggers). I continue to be shocked at how big the tads get and how large they have been morphing out...especially my Highland Sirensis, which I was having problems with.



port_plz said:


> Why have Indian Almond leaves become the hobby "standard"? I'm terrified to use anything else since the JF protocol has produced 90% success rates... That's a generous estimate - I'd say it's closer to 95% but I don't keep records. If I had to guess I only lose 2 or 3 tadpoles out of 100...
> 
> I did just order some black water extract but I'm nervous to start using it but I don't really want to keep a stock of Indian Almond leaves on hand if there is a more environmentally friendly alternative. Shipping special leaves across the country just seems silly to me...


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## hp192 (Feb 28, 2016)

I've raised tads with and without leaves and to be honest never really noticed any difference in mortality rates. There are definitely benefits to tannins, but it's not required.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

port_plz said:


> Why have Indian Almond leaves become the hobby "standard"? I'm terrified to use anything els.


Okay history lesson here... 

The origin in tadpole tea was due to a search for answers as to why there were issues with tadpole rearing and infections like mouth fungus. This led to the addition of things like aldur cones or oak leaves, or even boiled the water frog boiled peat to provide the humic acids which would then soften the water (by precipitating calcium and magnesium salts) (those who think RO causes ions loss and shouldn't be used take note ...) and push carbonate ions to disperse as CO2. Now this of course led to multiple attempts to find the most convenient /easiest source of these acids, ranging from different types of oaks or magnolia leaves to decaffinated tea ... and since Indian Almond Leaves are popular in the fish and shrimp hobby this led to their wide adoption in the hobby and from there it was only a step to dogma as it was the best choice. 

Tadpole tea arose back in the day before the link to vitamin A and health of frogs have even been remotely considered (in fact it arose when preformed vitamin A was considered bad ...) as a problem and much like dripping calcium gluconate onto pumilio metamorphs to get them past six months survival, it wasn't taken as a sign that there were underlying problems with care. Many tadpoles were also kept at low temperatures (68-72 F) which along with vitamin deficiency reduces the ability of the tadpole to respond to immune challenges necessitating the use of methylene blue or tadpole tea. As tadpole tea is also considered a "natural" product, many people perceived it as a better choice for preventing of the issues. 

some comments 

Ed


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Wow, thanks Ed  Great history lesson. I hope you write a book someday. 

I'm always afraid to change things up especially when it comes to tadpoles. I lost all of my very first tadpoles and even tho it was most likely due to being the first clutch I'll always remember the poor little guys bloating up and slowly dying  in a panic I ordered everything from JF's instructions.

It's great to know I don't have to have Indian almond leaves or panic when I run low. I do really like the way the tadpole tea looks with a bit of java moss.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

port_plz said:


> . I do really like the way the tadpole tea looks with a bit of java moss.



And this is a completely valid reason for you to continue to do so .... there is always an aesthetic appeal to these sorts of enclosure that is an important component. The main thing is that you understand the where and why so you can make a real decision instead of blindly following a recipe as the wheres and the whys are often able to be applied to other situations. 

some comments 

Ed


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

I've never used T. catappa leaves for tadpoles. Commercial tannin extract, Oak leaves, Beech leaves, Alder cones, Coconut coir/fiber, peat, and Birch leaves have all worked fine for me.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

bsr8129 said:


> I have raised more then enough tadpoles with out any Indian almond leaves, just DI water and nothing else other than tadpole food and they morph out perfectly fine. I dont think its a requirement, it just adds another benefit, but tads will do fine with out it.


I don't use them either ( I do use java moss). However, I do rear my tadpoles in very seasoned fish tanks, which may well provide a similar benefit.


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