# Whey protein?



## CREEPlNG_DEATH (Nov 28, 2009)

I have read a couple threads on some using whey or soy protein in their media mixes, would this actually help to produce more? And does it matter if it has flavoring say chocolate or if it contains a higher percentage of amino acids?


Thank's Matt


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## leonh (Jul 3, 2011)

hi there,i can see your veiw on using whey protein with all the vitamins and minerals and amino acids,but all i can advise is not to bother as these supplements are human grade with alot of added fillers that could be very detrimental to the frogs long term health,i myself do alot of weight training and use to drink these but after awhile i was told by doctors to avoid them as i started bleeding..i won't say were from,lol.so i now make my own,but anyway back to the topic you could maybe add some frog/reptile vitamin's every now and then to the fruit fly media to be on the safe side


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

Adding supplements to the ff media is rarely transferred to the frogs as the fruit flies typically pass it through their system way too fast, before the frogs can get to them. You are better off just dusting your flies on a consistent schedule


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## leonh (Jul 3, 2011)

also i'm going to try a method soon were i'm going to be collecting wild grass(foraging) plus shop buying various fruit and veg and putting it through a juicer to exstract the mineral goodness then mix the juices into ground up oats,i like the wild grass idea and foraging in genral..away form pesticide areas as the vitamins are meant to be second to none.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

josh_r said:


> Adding supplements to the ff media is rarely transferred to the frogs as the fruit flies typically pass it through their system way too fast, before the frogs can get to them. You are better off just dusting your flies on a consistent schedule


This is not true. Fruit flies will sequester some vitamins. Particularly forms of vitamin E. The vitamin E can then be delivered to your frogs in a potence many hundreds of times beyond normal. The elevated vitamin E levels will then block the uptake of calcium and vitamin D. Do a quick search for Tocopherol Sequestering and you will find more on this.
This is why it is NOT a good idea to add vitamin mix to your fruitfly media.
Additionally, I would recommend that you thoroughly investigate the link between soy and synthetic estrogen before adding any soy protein to your media. Hopping up your media with soy may be the equivalent of shooting your frogs all full of estrogen. This could possibly subdue the male traits of your frogs. At the worst, you could come into your frog room and find all your dominate males listening to Boy George or Lady GaGa, while doing their nails and stuffing their tiny little bras! (a little goofiness for kicks and grins but I'm dead serious. I would NOT use Soy in any of my feeds.) You could also find that it may influence the sex of your froglets and end up producing only or mostly females.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The flies do have a very rapid gut transit system that prevents them from being gut loaded as gut contents are voided extremely quickly. 
The excess of vitamin E can disrupt the uptake of vitamin A and D3 in the frogs which would not be a good idea (and the flies do not absorb vitamin A, D3, excess calcium (any amount above the level needed is excreted as fast as it enters the digestive tract). 

Virtually all of the medias that are in common use (all that include brewer's yeast) are close to the maximum level of protien before it ends up reducing the viability of the flies and increasing the risk of foul odors. I would not suggest using whey in the media unless you know how to adjust it so that you do not exceed the level of protien that reduces the viability of the cultures. 

As has been noted repeatedly that number of flies produced does not correlate to whether those are flies that provide the optimum level of nutrition. Instead that is controlled by the genetics of the flies... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

leonh said:


> also i'm going to try a method soon were i'm going to be collecting wild grass(foraging) plus shop buying various fruit and veg and putting it through a juicer to exstract the mineral goodness then mix the juices into ground up oats,i like the wild grass idea and foraging in genral..away form pesticide areas as the vitamins are meant to be second to none.


I'm not even going to ask as to the reasoning but it is clear that you do not understand nutritional needs of the flies for them to do well much less what is likely to be transferred to the frogs from the flies... I suggest that you start by looking over the threads in which fly nutrition has been discussed. And as a final note the gut transit time in the flies is so short that that gut loading them is not practical (and avoids the whole issue that the flies and the larva excrete digestive enzymes into the media which breaks down the material in the media (such as many vitamins).... 
If you want I suggest reading through the bibliography found here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/67766-repashy-superfly-26.html#post608267 as a start for understanding the process... 

Ed


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## leonh (Jul 3, 2011)

hi Ed,i do understand your concern's with adding supplements and as of reading i think i will stop this as i too would worry about giving my frogs lethal doses of vitamin's,although i never go over board with how much i add..
this is my fruit fly mix as it's been since virtually the time i've kept dartfrog's

4/5 types of fruit i.e bananna,apples blueberrys,raisans, maybe pure non concentraited orange juice,tomatoes carrots in every mix,for water which is osmosis wihich is built up to 6.5 ph with replacement minerals,two cups of readybrek,uk brand plus 1 cup of regular oats ground up coffee grinder then small half uk teaspoon of something called herpetal amphib,thats it then mix all the fruits water and vitamins in blender then add to the oats,and my flies are always swarming..but on reading i will cut out the vitamins.

but i do like the idea of adding wild growing veg like the grass as it is rumoured if someone where to be living in the wilderness they could almost live exscusively off it as there are proteins,fats minerals and the chlorophly is meant to help against types of cancers in humans so hope long term it would only be good for frogs,as also i think nature does it truly the best.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The problem is that the flies are a poor vehicle to transfer any of those materials to the frogs. Gut loading doesn't occur and the vast majority of those things aren't going to transfer to the frogs. The flies do not uptake and store, vitamin A, D3, or even some of the other vitamins. Chloroplast is not going to transfer nor are the carotenoids outside of the ones that are converted to rhodopsin in the eyes (on analysis carotenoids are often listed as non-detected). This is even true with all of the fruits and vegetables.. the vast majority of that doesn't make it into the flies much less to the frogs. 

Instead of attempting to get the flies to pass those nutrients along, you are far better off using a good dusting supplement that contains a wide variety of carotenoids as well as a preformed source of vitamin A. 

Ed


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## leonh (Jul 3, 2011)

ok thank's Ed,i think i will have to look in to this repashy stuff
is there a good one you would recomend with the carotenoids as it seems it really will benifit the frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The Repashy Calcium plus is a good choice and if you want a higher carotenoids source to dust with periodically then use the superpig. 


Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> The Repashy Calcium plus is a good choice and if you want a higher carotenoids source to dust with periodically then use the superpig.
> 
> 
> Ed


This is what a lot of us are dusting with, leonh. The Calcium Plus was designed to be a "stand alone" suppliment. The Superpig can be added to your rotation for color, but should NOT replace the Calcium Plus.


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## leonh (Jul 3, 2011)

ok thanks guys i will give it a try.


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## leonh (Jul 3, 2011)

right as it goe's i've ordered some repashy calcium plus,so am excited to try it.but back to the composition of fruit flies and not so much the gut loading as i now understand food leaves the stomach tracts very qiuickly.

what i was wondering is my method of adding several types of fruit in every mix plus soon to add wild grass juice surely that would improve the genetics of the fruit flie during larvae/maggot stage as when there feeding they pic up these exstra nutrients +minerals to pupae into stronger flies which in genral are healthier long term genetic wise,any thoughts guy's/girls.?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

leonh said:


> right as it goe's i've ordered some repashy calcium plus,so am excited to try it.but back to the composition of fruit flies and not so much the gut loading as i now understand food leaves the stomach tracts very qiuickly.
> 
> what i was wondering is my method of adding several types of fruit in every mix plus soon to add wild grass juice surely that would improve the genetics of the fruit flie during larvae/maggot stage as when there feeding they pic up these exstra nutrients +minerals to pupae into stronger flies which in genral are healthier long term genetic wise,any thoughts guy's/girls.?


No...... you would have to have some form of selection to ensure that the "healthiest" (what ever that means much less what it means to the nutritional content of the fly) are breeding. In a culture, there are few (really if any) selection pressures of that form... You would have to have some way to evaluate a individual fly and then anesthetized the culture and sort them by hand based on that evaluation to apply the selection pressure. 

In short you are not going to change the genetics of the fly. You can go to google scholar and search fruit fly genetics etc and read about it as much as you need. 

Ed


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## leonh (Jul 3, 2011)

hi again i do agree on the point of selection process and the fact there are no pressures on the flies in the culture as there would be in the wild preditation food shortages,and admit i did not think to much on that point,but by adding better nutrients from wild collected friut veg when possible surley over time maybe second third generation cultures would be better nutrtionly.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

leonh said:


> hi again i do agree on the point of selection process and the fact there are no pressures on the flies in the culture as there would be in the wild preditation food shortages,and admit i did not think to much on that point,but by adding better nutrients from wild collected friut veg when possible surley over time maybe second third generation cultures would be better nutrtionly.


Why? 

Ed


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

i know its an old thread but i was amused by the last couple of posts. ed the answer to your question of why? is simple lamarkian evolution. that darwin guy got it all wrong.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skanderson said:


> i know its an old thread but i was amused by the last couple of posts. ed the answer to your question of why? is simple lamarkian evolution. that darwin guy got it all wrong.


Laughs.. but lamarkian evolution doesn't mean that the descendents would be more nutritious since there isn't an advantage to the flies...

Ed


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

I know it has also been said gutloading doesn't work with ff's. However, the 6 hour time frame for evacuation seems a long time. When I feed my frogs, they come up right away when I open the door and eat at least half the flies in the first 10 minutes. While later insects would not have anything left in them, these first eaten ones should. No?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

BrianWI said:


> I know it has also been said gutloading doesn't work with ff's. However, the 6 hour time frame for evacuation seems a long time. When I feed my frogs, they come up right away when I open the door and eat at least half the flies in the first 10 minutes. While later insects would not have anything left in them, these first eaten ones should. No?


 
Ignoring the impact of the excreted enzymes by the larva and adults, ignoring the unchecked microbial digestion, and oxidation on the "additives". The flies do not retain nor store a number of things and infact can excrete some nutrients almost as fast as they are fed them (example calcium which is why you can't increase thier calcium level at all even with a high calcium media)........ 
The rapid gut turnover is only one small part of the issue. 

Ed


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Are there any published studies on this? Any tests on the flies? Any studies on where the frogs get these nutrients in the wild? I'd like to read them if they are out there. I have read the opinions, they seem to differ, even on how long the powder sticks to a fly.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

BrianWI said:


> Are there any published studies on this? Any tests on the flies? Any studies on where the frogs get these nutrients in the wild? I'd like to read them if they are out there. I have read the opinions, they seem to differ, even on how long the powder sticks to a fly.


It has been posted and linked to many times by myself and you should be able to find the relevent literature through the use of the search function. 

Ed


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

I found no comparative fruit fly tests, with and without gut loading. Basically, is there a test of gutloaded flies published, like after 1 hour, 2 hour 4 hour, etc.?


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