# Making a live wall: plants and substrate questions



## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Hello everyone,

I am making a "live wall" above my planted aquarium (more details on the hardware here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/226985-making-live-wall-hardware-help.html )
So basically it's a wall that will be above my tank. The base of this wall is expanded PVC sheet; on that I have matala and on top of that I have planned to put layers of epiweb (similar as spyra).
Like this:









I am wanting to grow some mini orchids, ferns, moss and air plants on this wall. Something that will complement the aquatic plants of the planted tank.
Some of the ferns that I like are: Maidenhair fern, Creeping fig, rabbits foot fern.

But they need a fertile substrate to grow in. My live wall right now has only spyra and matala layers.
*Question 1: How to make pockets of fertile substrate to plant ferns and other plants that need nutrient rich substrate.*
_ # I can maybe sew such pockets in syra before putting it on the live wall and that way I can fill those pockets with ADA amazonia. 
## The other option that I can think is to make small balls of ADA amazonia or any similar nutrient rich soil by putting them in small pieces of pantyhose and then placing those balls around the plant that need it. It is more of a portable method.
### Or maybe I design some kind of small planters out of acrylic sheets that would attach to the spyra with some hooks or pins and will be filled with soil to plant the plants._

*Orchids:* My main reason behind making this wall was the love of my girlfriend towards orchids. She just loves orchids. She never dares to buy them thinking they will die on her. So I have taken the responsibility of growing orchids for her.
I have grown toughest of the toughest aquarium plants with success. From Egleria fluctuans to Eriocaulon ratnagiricum and Eriocaulon quinquangulare, I have grown them all. But this is my first time with orchids.
So I need to start with the easy ones first. Since the size of my live wall is going to be 36"x15", I want mini orchids. Orchids that don't become bigger than say 6-8". 
*Question 2: Please suggest some "easy to start with" mini or miniature orchids. *
_I have seen some mini Phalaenopsis but they don't look very natural. They look like the bright orchids they sell at grocery stores. I want natural looking orchids. I just did a quick search on ebay and there are a TON of mini orchids available like Schoenorchis fragrans but I am not sure which ones are easy to grow._

*Question 3- Planting orchids: Does each orchid have separate way of getting attached or do all of them need to be attached the same way?*
_I just read a page where someone said that they use charcoaled bamboo covered with newzealand sphagnum moss to attach there orchids.
I can maybe attach some charcoaled bamboos to my live wall and then when I will need to attach an orchid, I will just put some sphagnum moss on the bamboo and then the orchid will go on that!
What is your take on it? _

*Question 4- Humidity and watering:* _This wall will be sitting over a 50 Gallon tank which will have a lot of surface movement. It will create a lot of humidity on it's own. But still, I am thinking of putting an ultrasonic humidifier to work. The unit will sit in the cabinet and only the pipe will come out to the top of the wall. The fog will spread on the wall and then ultimately end on the tank's water column.
Do you think this would be enough to keep the live wall moist and humid? Or should I think about a misting system that will mist the wall every so often?_

*Question 5- Moss:* _Except ferns and orchids, I want the whole wall to look green. What kind of moss should I go with? I will definitely have some christmas moss and flame moss but I was thinking about having some terrestrial mosses as well. Sphagnum moss comes to my mind.
Any other kind of terrestrial moss that will do good here? _

That is all I can think of at the moment. Sorry for so many questions. I would really really appreciate all your suggestions and comments.


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Anyone, please?


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## MrMycetes (Nov 9, 2014)

Don't bother with the substrate. A lot of plants will thrive without it. Soil is simply a physical thing for nutrients and water to hold onto, as long as your irrigation is supplying these, it will be fine. I'v seen whole papaya trees grown in mid-air with nothing but a PVC pipe to hold onto, and a dripper system showering them with a nutrient solution.


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## MrMycetes (Nov 9, 2014)

The Rabbits Foot you talked about is actually an epiphyte, it doesn't need soil. The creeping fig doesn't either, nor does the maidenhair fern. A lot of ferns grow on rocks in the wild.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

Yeah if its outside of your tank you could probably get away with occasional fertilizers too, no need for substrate, I would think about running a drip wall and worry more about the base for that and the irrigation system itself lol


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## urionfranz (Apr 5, 2015)

Java moss seems like it would be good. 
Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX2Tb5NLSIQ


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

MrMycetes said:


> Don't bother with the substrate. A lot of plants will thrive without it. Soil is simply a physical thing for nutrients and water to hold onto, as long as your irrigation is supplying these, it will be fine. I'v seen whole papaya trees grown in mid-air with nothing but a PVC pipe to hold onto, and a dripper system showering them with a nutrient solution.


Thanks for your reply. 
I am looking at the drip systems. I would most probably DIY one.
You have a valid point here. If the roots can get into spyra and matala, and the nutrients are being provided by the water, why they need soil!



MrMycetes said:


> The Rabbits Foot you talked about is actually an epiphyte, it doesn't need soil. The creeping fig doesn't either, nor does the maidenhair fern. A lot of ferns grow on rocks in the wild.


Awesome. So I have one less thing to worry about. I am not gonna worry about the substrate then.
Thanks much for your comment.



Wusserton said:


> Yeah if its outside of your tank you could probably get away with occasional fertilizers too, no need for substrate, I would think about running a drip wall and worry more about the base for that and the irrigation system itself lol


Hmm.. Yeah That's what I am thinking now. I just read an amazing article on making live walls in Amazonas magazine. It talks about the drip system.
Now I need to experiment that if I want just one big pipe on the top of the wall dripping water or a pipe running throughout the wall.



urionfranz said:


> Java moss seems like it would be good.
> Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX2Tb5NLSIQ


I have seen that vid in the past 
How amazing that is. I want to have a similar lush green moss on my wall. Thanks for the link.


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Can someone help me regarding the orchids, please?
I am going to look into the drip wall or something similar.

Do you know if a mistking would be enough for this wall? So instead of worrying about the drip system, I will just buy a mistking with one or two nozzles and put that over the wall.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

sumer said:


> Can someone help me regarding the orchids, please?
> 
> I am going to look into the drip wall or something similar.
> 
> ...



Outside of the tank a mistking would probably evaporate too much before it even hits the wall depending on distance. it would also have to run pretty much constantly and without being wet all the time you would never get moss to grow or spread. 


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Wusserton said:


> Outside of the tank a mistking would probably evaporate too much before it even hits the wall depending on distance. it would also have to run pretty much constantly and without being wet all the time you would never get moss to grow or spread.


That maybe right too. But then I was thinking about all the misting nozzles that run in grocery stores above the vegetables. They run in open environment but still work good enough, don't they?
But then attaching these nozzles over the wall might be a pain.

I am looking at the micro irrigation tubing as a potential solution. That and an ultrasonic humidifier should take care of the moisture.

Anotyher thing that I realized was that Matala might drain the water too quickly. I had it in my mind but never really thought about it until I told about this project to a friend. So I think I will use felt instead of matala.

Can anyone answer about the orchids, please?


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

What about an external canister filter? they usually have the return with a bunch of holes drilled in it, you could probably modify some tubing for the length of the piece and have the intake side on the bottom resevoir


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Wusserton said:


> What about an external canister filter? they usually have the return with a bunch of holes drilled in it, you could probably modify some tubing for the length of the piece and have the intake side on the bottom resevoir
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yup, I have at least 3 pair of eheim outlet pipes. I always end up using lily pipes and those green output pipes remain unused. 
Maybe it's as easy as buying a pump and connecting it to this canister filter output pipe!


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

This post really sparks my interest lol I have a large chunk of free wall in my frog room/home office and an eheim 250 that I was planning a water feature tank for but am thinking of not doing now so its just kinda hanging out staring me in the eye if you know what I mean! you have me thinking of doing a drip system moss wall with other plants included for that area. I would have to build a water tight system with no splash and make sure its anchored into studs, I have a PC in the area but could set the PC up on a platform to guard against leaks or other unfortunate mishaps lol 

Edited: the free wall area was originally going to be for fat head style dart frog graphics you can get off of amazon.com and maybe a corner shelf for one of my beer keg lamps but with a lit moss wall that wont be an issue. lol


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## Epiphile (Nov 12, 2009)

You can drill a piece of PVC pipe with holes along its length, cap one end and attach the other to a pump. I'm not sure if a canister will get you the head height you need, but it may be worth experimenting with if you have one on hand. I think you will find this method less messy, problematic and visually intrusive than a misting or fogging system.

I would wait and let your system run for a while before you start thinking about orchids. Let the thing settle in as you dial in your lighting/watering, see if you can successfully grow some moss on the surface of the wall, and maybe start growing a few different species mounted or in pots in the meanwhile so you get a feel for their preferences. It can become expensive to start trialing orchids in a project like this.


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Wusserton said:


> This post really sparks my interest lol I have a large chunk of free wall in my frog room/home office and an eheim 250 that I was planning a water feature tank for but am thinking of not doing now so its just kinda hanging out staring me in the eye if you know what I mean! you have me thinking of doing a drip system moss wall with other plants included for that area. I would have to build a water tight system with no splash and make sure its anchored into studs, I have a PC in the area but could set the PC up on a platform to guard against leaks or other unfortunate mishaps lol
> 
> Edited: the free wall area was originally going to be for fat head style dart frog graphics you can get off of amazon.com and maybe a corner shelf for one of my beer keg lamps but with a lit moss wall that wont be an issue. lol
> 
> ...


Why wait then> Start NOW. LOL. Or well, wait for my project to either pass or fail. The start yours.



Epiphile said:


> You can drill a piece of PVC pipe with holes along its length, cap one end and attach the other to a pump. I'm not sure if a canister will get you the head height you need, but it may be worth experimenting with if you have one on hand. I think you will find this method less messy, problematic and visually intrusive than a misting or fogging system.
> 
> I would wait and let your system run for a while before you start thinking about orchids. Let the thing settle in as you dial in your lighting/watering, see if you can successfully grow some moss on the surface of the wall, and maybe start growing a few different species mounted or in pots in the meanwhile so you get a feel for their preferences. It can become expensive to start trialing orchids in a project like this.


I've found a "Vertical wall drip system" that I have bought. It will get to me sometime this week.
I am very confused about fogger vs mister though. Fogger needs to push the fog to a height of 5'. What if fog condenses in these 5 feet?
Even if it does that, would the fog be enough?
I am inclining towards the mister now. Not letting the water spray out of the wall is going to be a pain.


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

I have cut the florafelt and spyra. I tried attaching felt to PVC sheet with 100% silicon and it worked pretty good. 
I will have to figure out a way to attach spyra on the felt though.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

Velcro may work for that, or just sew it on with fishing line


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## Epiphile (Nov 12, 2009)

Stainless staples or at least something a little more robust than silicone may give you longer-term success, as the water and plants can add to the weight of the material and you wouldn't want the whole thing sliding into your aquarium. You can use these to affix both materials to the PVC sheet.

If you're going to have a drip system that will moisten the Spyra, you may not find a e a need for fogging or misting; as long as the material stays moist (which it sounds like you want it to do), this should create a favourable microclimate immediately around the wall, especially with an open aquarium immediately below it. In my experience this local humidity is quite high, though it drops off quickly the further you get from the wall. Granted, I haven't had the pleasure of working with Spyra yet, but I'm presuming it would function similarly in this respect.


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Glad you guys pointed out the longevity issue of silicon with PVC. I tried pulling the felt from the PVC sheet and fair enough that it did not have a very strong connection to the PVC sheet (like it will have to glass). I ordered some stainless steel washer head screws to put the felt sheet at place. 
I am yet to test putting spyra on felt. But staples and velcro both sounds good. My girlfriend did offer me to sew them both with fishing line but I am afraid that might get loose over the time.

I talked to guys at Josh's frog and LLLreptiles and they all are saying that fogger won't work in an open environment, which I think is true.
When there's no air flow from the windows or doors, fine. But when a door or a window is open, the fog will drift somewhere else and will just not fall where I want it to.

I am inclining towards the mister. I intend to plant some bucephalandra as well on the wall which will for sure benefit from the misting 
Keeping the mist from spraying water around the wall is going to be a big pain though.

There's an article in this month's Amazonas about a live wall that a LFS in Washington area has (owned by Steve Waldron, who is a good friend). But that wall doesn't have a fogger or a mister. It has only a drip water system.

I have already spent a good sum of money on this project and so a repti fogger won't affect too much.
I am gonna order both, mister and the fogger and test them myself to see what works and what doesn't. At least all the questions that I have will be answered.


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## penfold (Nov 20, 2010)

Foggers are more for increasing humidity in an enclosed area. I doubt it would help you much. Misters are very good at evenly wetting large areas, but it could be messy with an open area. You'll get some overspray if you try to cover the entire width of the tank, and some water will invariably bounce off of the plants and background. A drip wall seems like the best solution for keeping water where it belongs.

Have you seen this link?

Living Wall


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

Most of the things have become clear now. I am using flora felt instead of matala. I am using mistking instead of fogger.
I am going to work on the LED unit this weekend.
I also might work on fixing the pvc sheet to the cabinet. Will keep y'all posted with photos and all.


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