# Dart Frogs and Vampire Crabe



## HippieXXScum (May 4, 2016)

Guys

I am going to create a combined dart frog and vampire crab vivarium. It is a 10 Gallon terrarium (not ideal size) I willl be looking to upgrade size in the next 6 months

It will contain 2 Auratus and 2 vampire crabs.

My mind is made up. Unless everyone really thinks this is a terrible idea i am going to try to house them together

Reasons i think it will work

Dart frogs and vampire crabs are kept in identical habitat and identical temperature/humidity range

They do not cohabitate in the wild but the care sheets for the two animals are almost identical. 

My dart frog set up already contains a small pool.

The crabs are not nearly large enough to harm the dart frogs

They eat the same foods

Vampire crabs are nocturnal, they will be burrowed in one of my coconut huts during the day and active at night when the forgs are asleep.

Thoughts?


----------



## Steuss (Apr 20, 2016)

I believe vampire craps are pretty opportunistic when it comes to food. A small sleeping frog might make for a tempting morsel.


----------



## Vinegaroonie (Jul 31, 2015)

Steuss said:


> I believe vampire craps are pretty opportunistic when it comes to food. A small sleeping frog might make for a tempting morsel.


Even if they weren't viewed as food items, the crabs would probably disturb the frogs all night. Not worth the stress IMO.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ever kept Geosesrma? Sounds like you may have some misconceptions about them. It will NOT be a beneficial arrangement.


----------



## roundfrog (Jan 27, 2016)

10 GALLONS!! the rule of thumb is 10 gallons PER FROG. you are putting 4 creatures in a 10 gallon tank, and you're mixing. If you can't get a bigger tank, then you shouldn't do it at all.


----------



## Ross (Feb 10, 2008)

If you came here looking for affirmation for this ill-advised plan, you came to the wrong community. No responsible breeder here will recommend mixing species. 

Here's a relevant discussion. 

Good luck


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I`ve actually been thinking about doing Lobsters with my Auratus...


----------



## HippieXXScum (May 4, 2016)

Please give me some specific reasons. And specific differences in needs of vamps Vs frogs. No one has listed a reason other than "it's just something we don't do"


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

HippieXXScum said:


> Please give me some specific reasons. And specific differences in needs of vamps Vs frogs. No one has listed a reason other than "it's just something we don't do"


since you apparently missed them...



Steuss said:


> I believe vampire craps are pretty opportunistic when it comes to food. A small sleeping frog might make for a tempting morsel.





Vinegaroonie said:


> Even if they weren't viewed as food items, the crabs would probably disturb the frogs all night. Not worth the stress IMO.



Seriously though, similar husbandry requirements is not reason enough to keep them together and has nothing to do with how they would interact. These species do not belong together in a 10 gallon tank.


----------



## Kees Hood (Nov 20, 2014)

Two territorial frogs and two also very territorial crabs from opposite corners of the world might have trouble getting along, especially considering a ten gallon is minimalistic for two tinctorius. They will likely compete over resources as well as hiding spots, generally making a stressful situation for you and the animals. For your sake or the animals, please don't try this.


----------



## Ross (Feb 10, 2008)

HippieXXScum said:


> Please give me some specific reasons. And specific differences in needs of vamps Vs frogs. No one has listed a reason other than "it's just something we don't do"


Did you not read the I posted for you? This conversation has already happened several times on this forum. The search feature can be a bit wonky so I figured I'd find you a good discussion on the subject so we don't have to have a drawn out discussion on why you shouldn't do this.

Here's the link again, for your reading pleasure.

Read through that thread, and you'll find advice from some of the most experienced breeders on this forum -- or any other forum for that matter.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

HippieXXScum said:


> Please give me some specific reasons. And specific differences in needs of vamps Vs frogs. No one has listed a reason other than "it's just something we don't do"


Since you want to be spoon-fed the issues that can arise from this particular type of mixed enclosure as opposed to doing your own research and coming up with reasonable conclusions, I'll oblige with suggestions based on my own experiences and information gleaned from those wiser/more experienced than myself . I don't necessarily think it will prevent you from doing what you want, but it may assist some other keepers pondering the same kind of display from making the same mistake.



HippieXXScum said:


> I am going to create a combined dart frog and vampire crab vivarium. It is a 10 Gallon terrarium (not ideal size) I willl be looking to upgrade size in the next 6 months
> 
> It will contain 2 Auratus and 2 vampire crabs.
> 
> ...


What are you basing this on? Dart frogs from where? Vampire crabs from where? There are HUGE variations in environmental conditions within the ranges of Dendrobatids, and likely Geosesarma as well. My crabs have done best cooler than my frogs, I generally keep them 65-70*F.
You mentioned D. auratus as your frog of choice, which locale/morph?



HippieXXScum said:


> They do not cohabitate in the wild but the care sheets for the two animals are almost identical.


Where are you seeing these identical 'care sheets'? What kind of information is presented?



HippieXXScum said:


> My dart frog set up already contains a small pool.


Is this the primary reason that you wanted to include the crabs? Because there might be a tiny little niche in your tiny little tank that could possibly support them? 



HippieXXScum said:


> The crabs are not nearly large enough to harm the dart frogs


You didn't answer my question about ever keeping vamp crabs before, and this question baffles me. I've kept two forms of Geosesarma sp. in the past, and they would go after my fingers if they were hungry or agitated. The adults have strong enough pincers to catch and dismember each other, and they would certainly have no problems snagging an auratus (at least long enough to remove a foot or an eye). Additionally, if you had any breeding from either species, the young would certainly prove to be prey items for the other species.



HippieXXScum said:


> They eat the same foods


Yeah, sort of. The crabs are omnivores, which means they will forage just about any plant or animal based material around them that they consider edible. They will pay particular attention to moving prey, and frequently become more aggressive when it is present. This means that the crabs will be most active and nasty exactly when and where the frogs are being fed.



HippieXXScum said:


> Vampire crabs are nocturnal, they will be burrowed in one of my coconut huts during the day and active at night when the forgs are asleep.


Can't say that I've seen much of a difference in activity level between when lights are on or off. They will be out when they want to, and they will occupy the space they feel most comfortable. I doubt that it will be inside a coconut hut, unless there is nothing more suitable in the viv.
The crabs will need as much shoreline space as you can provide, with multiple, deep inset burrows along, but not under the water. The closer their quarters, the more often you will lose individuals.



HippieXXScum said:


> Thoughts?


Any more specific questions? Or answers to mine?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Deleted.

What am I thinking getting involved with this


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

roundfrog said:


> 10 GALLONS!! the rule of thumb is 10 gallons PER FROG..


DOGMA!!! You might want to read the discussions on this as anything set as volume/animal is a problem. 

example, a one inch by one inch by 16 feet enclosure is close to ten gallons but it is not a suitable space for any frog ..... 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> You didn't answer my question about ever keeping vamp crabs before, and this question baffles me. I've kept two forms of Geosesarma sp. in the past, and they would go after my fingers if they were hungry or agitated. The adults have strong enough pincers to catch and dismember each other, and they would certainly have no problems snagging an auratus (at least long enough to remove a foot or an eye). Additionally, if you had any breeding from either species, the young would certainly prove to be prey items for the other species.


While anecdotal, I've seen geosarma capture adult crickets with minimal effort, it is not beyond reason that they will capture and eat the frogs. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Steuss (Apr 20, 2016)

Ed said:


> While anecdotal, I've seen geosarma capture adult crickets with minimal effort, it is not beyond reason that they will capture and eat the frogs.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


A little something to back up your anecdote.

https://youtu.be/-oBka94-APA


----------



## Steuss (Apr 20, 2016)

Steuss said:


> A little something to back up your anecdote.
> 
> https://youtu.be/-oBka94-APA


HippieXXScum,

If you haven't already watched this video, please do so. While you watch it, imagine that $.03 cricket is a $40 frog.


----------



## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Steuss said:


> HippieXXScum,
> 
> If you haven't already watched this video, please do so. While you watch it, imagine that $.03 cricket is a $40 frog.


Better yet, imagine that it's a frog that someone spent two months raising up from a tadpole, the another probable 3 months tending to it almost daily, only to watch almost 6 months of work go down the tubes because someone is too ignorant or stubborn to learn basic husbandry. -_- . Sorry for my lack if subtlety and tact here...


----------



## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I wouldn't be sorry.
A lot less time would be wasted and the world would be much further along if people just spoke the simple truth. Can't always pat everyone on the fanny and tell 'em good job. Everyone has asinine ideas from time to time. No harm in telling someone when they're being a jackwagon. If they can't handle it, they shouldn't have asked. Especially when you can tell they already had an idea that it might not be a good idea and had to ask in the first place.
Then act silly when you don't give them the answer they were hoping for.
Yeah, I wouldn't apologize. The sky is blue, water is wet, sometimes people are stubborn and ignorant. I'm not sorry about it.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Blueper said:


> I wouldn't be sorry.
> A lot less time would be wasted and the world would be much further along if people just spoke the simple truth. Can't always pat everyone on the fanny and tell 'em good job. Everyone has asinine ideas from time to time. No harm in telling someone when they're being a jackwagon. If they can't handle it, they shouldn't have asked. Especially when you can tell they already had an idea that it might not be a good idea and had to ask in the first place.
> Then act silly when you don't give them the answer they were hoping for.
> Yeah, I wouldn't apologize. The sky is blue, water is wet, sometimes people are stubborn and ignorant. I'm not sorry about it.


I don`t know who you are but that was the most kick ass post I have ever read


----------



## Vinegaroonie (Jul 31, 2015)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I don`t know who you are but that was the most kick ass post I have ever read


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

Damn this is quite the roast. Although well deserved. This idea sounds like an attempt at cockfighting- frog vs crab.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Every one of these threads is EXACTLY the same, someone shows up (usually new) with some sort of agenda, gets a few responses and then disappears.

Seen it a hundred times...let it go


----------



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

lol the poll speaks for itself in this matter only 2 think it's a good idea and whoever those 2 people are need some serious education on the hobby. 

I feel like a ass for keeping a pair of Azureus in a 10 gallon let alone adding 2 other inhabitants that could fall victim to them. Not much space for them to run away and those vampire crabs can climb good too. Sounds like you're just gonna wind up giving your crabs a gourmet dart frog dinner 
FYI my Azureus pair will be rehoused to a 20 long eventually. Most likely within the next few months, hopefully. Waiting to get more financially stable first. 
Though many put 2 tincs together in a 10 gallon but it's pretty bare minimal.

What you could do is take something like a 20 long (if you're dead set on making it small) and put a glass partition in the middle of the viv and have a dart frog/vampire crab viv. If you do it right you won't even need to put silicone on the front of the glass partition giving it a cleaner look. Just make sure the glass it cut real smooth. 
I would also get the glass notched up top so it can rise up out of the tank a bit and you can make 2 separate glass tops instead of one big top. 
I would mot do this with a 10 gallon by any means. I would really go with something like a 40 gallon breeder or a 55 gallon. 

The fact you'll have to feed the crabs bigger prey like crickets and bigger crickets might bite the dart frogs so that alone is worrisome. Not trying to entertain the idea just another thing that could go wrong with this terrible idea.


----------



## Terrarium keeper (Jun 13, 2021)

HippieXXScum said:


> Guys
> 
> I am going to create a combined dart frog and vampire crab vivarium. It is a 10 Gallon terrarium (not ideal size) I willl be looking to upgrade size in the next 6 months
> 
> ...


Well I don’t know but vampire crabs need a paludarium and dart frogs need a vivarium unless you intend to keep them with fish then change to a paludarium.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This topic is 6 years old. Long out of relevancy. Closing the thread.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Bumping six year old threads on highly contentious issues doesn't promote healthy discussion, and if those bumps don't contain any real information then they're not even useful. Sometimes these bumps come off as stirring the pot, and that's *quite* frowned on.

There is a valuable message appended to the bottom of these old, quiet threads. It is this:










That message doesn't mention all the reasons not to bump old threads, but it is intended to encourage a bit of reflection before doing so. If it isn't adding to an ongoing discussion, or adding valuable information to an older discussion that for whatever reason wouldn't be better to simply start a new discussion, then letting sleeping dog lie might be the best idea.


----------

