# My Tinc appears sick



## ehilberg (Sep 21, 2014)

I've had this Tinc housed with another for the past 2 months or so. They two tincs are from the same parents, but I actually got them at different times. The first one I got is healthy and active and has no issues of eating or anything else. The second frog I got doesn't appear to be doing very well. It doesn't eat right away when flies are introduced and is significantly smaller than the other frog. It also doesn't move around very much and there are times where it sprawls out and doesn't move. I keep my tanks right around 80% humidity and 70-75 deg temp with an occasional drop below 70 over night. The frogs are less than 6 months old and I haven't been supplementing them until very recently (first time PDF owner  ).

Any thoughts on what might be causing the issue or something I can do to perk this little guy up? Thanks!


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Sounds like the lack of supplements is the cause. I would separate the two and make make sure the smaller one gets enough dusted food. I worry if its already sprawled out that it may be to late though.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Sorry double post.


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## ehilberg (Sep 21, 2014)

I've separated them and will start supplementing them as well. What is the sprawling behavior typically indicitave of in the dart frog world?


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## ehilberg (Sep 21, 2014)

Update- So the frog in question appeared to die about 10 minutes ago when I went to feed it. It came out from under a leaf and just collapsed onto its back. I quickly removed it and placed it in a container outside the viv. It was motionless when I was trying to move it around with a leaf to see if it was alive in the viv and then once I got it into the container, it stayed motionless...until about a minute ago. It basically sprang back to life and started moving around again. I have a tiny bit of water in the container and it is ventilated. 

Any ideas on what this behavior is? Has anyone else seen this in their frogs? I'm afraid to re-introduce it into the viv, as it will be hard to track and view its behavior. I also don't think the plastic container is suitable for extended occupancy. So, any thoughts/ideas/suggestions? As previously stated, I'm pretty new to raising darts so consider me fully ignorant 

Thanks all!


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## Dart girl (Sep 25, 2013)

What is the tank temp? I'd put it in a barebones ER tank? Maybe get some amphibian lactated ringers. How about some micro fauna like sping tails and ISO pods? 


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## ehilberg (Sep 21, 2014)

The temp hovers between 70 and 75 on a consistent basis.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The symptoms are considered a classic for indicating insufficient calcium either stored and/or in the diet. This has been discussed many many times before on this forum and others. 

In virtually all of the documented cases, there is something wrong nutritionally with the frogs and the activity level exceeds the ability to control the muscle cells which causes the seizures which can appear to be lethal to some observers. If the issues with the nutrition are not corrected then the condition can lead to other issues such as bone deformation which can prevent the frog from being able to control the mouth and tongue for prey capture or render the frog unable to move. 

Having large amounts of microfauna in this case is not going to be helpful as they are not going to be balanced with respect to calcium and phosphorus nor are they a source of vitamin D3 which is required to uptake and utilize the calcium properly. The frog has to have ready access to a balanced supplement (meaning that it has a ratio of A to D3 to E of 10 to 1 to 0.1) that is not likely to have stored improperly or for too long of a length of time. Storage in areas with higher ambient humidity or thermal variations (like in the frog room or on a shelf next to enclosure lighting) will shorten the life span of the product regardless if it has been opened or not. The reason is that most of the products that I am aware of are not sealed under either a vacuum with a nonreactive atmosphere. 

Ensure you have the freshest supplements possible (if they are dusty sitting on the shelf in a pet store not a good sign) and store them properly. Ensure that the frog is getting and consuming sufficient numbers of properly dusted feeder insects. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dart girl said:


> What is the tank temp? I'd put it in a barebones ER tank? Maybe get some amphibian lactated ringers. How about some micro fauna like sping tails and ISO pods?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


ARS isn't the answer here the calcium levels are too low.. Instead the issues with husbandry have to be corrected to ensure that the proper amounts of calcium and D3 are in the diet. If anything the frog could be soaked in a calcium glubionate/calcium gluconate solution diluted as per the directions in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry but if there isn't sufficient D3 for the frog to use the calcium its a moot point..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mongo77 said:


> . I worry if its already sprawled out that it may be to late though.


The presence of calcium deficiency induced tetany is not a metric/benchmark indicating the probability of survival. The reason is that it can occur rapidly in the frogs so it can indicate a very minor deficiency as well as a major one. It is generally only when the bone deformations have begun to occur that prognosis becomes more bleak. 

Some comments

Ed


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