# What you do with the remaining eggs/tads???



## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

I don't have my dendros yet, still building the paludarium. But I want to get four of them and I don't think my paludarium will be appropriate to more than six frogs. Reading on the foruns I saw that dendros will breed like rabbits sometime, but I never read what you guys do when you don't want any more than you already have.

Also, what you do when you find a tad that you didn't know of? Leave it to be raised in the tank?


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

What size is your paludarium? Generally dart frogs aren't suitable for pauldariums, especially 4 crammed into it, let alone 6. If these are your first darts then I'd recommend building a nice, simple viv for and learn more about their husbandry, care, etc. 

As for your breeding question, generally people don't mist or feed as much in order to replicate a dry season - frogs usually won't breed during this time. Or you can physically separate the frogs to _guarantee_ no breeding... the dry out period approach does not work every time.


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

My paludarium is 100x40x50 centimeters. I want to get some Galactonotus and reading about looks like they do fine in a paludarium and use all vertical space plus the water part.

I really should have done something more simple, but now I finished most of it and I think it will be fine, just need more dedication.

But I still have to plant all the paludarium and install the ventilation system.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

Why not start out with fewer frogs and develop your husbandry skills? Then if you see that the tank will support additional animals and you've provided territorial barriers you can add more. I always try to error on the side of too much room rather than not enough.
Would love to see pictures of you project.

Also how much are the frogs in question in Brazil?
Brian


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm still buying the plants and they should arrive this week. Also I'm trying to clear the water, but probably will change the substrate.








































The red arrows show the water flux
The ballons show the waterfalls
And the drops are the drip walls


I'm gonna make a video and post more pics when I finish. 



Also, talking with the guy that breed the frogs, he sayd that is ok to put 4 of them in this setup...

The frogs are illegal here in Brazil, but I'm gonna buy from a breeder for R$ 90,00 each.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Vinicam said:


> Also, talking with the guy that breed the frogs, he sayd that is ok to put 4 of them in this setup...
> 
> The frogs are illegal here in Brazil, but I'm gonna buy from a breeder for R$ 90,00 each.


Dude, almost all of us are conservation minded hobbyists! I can't speak for everyone, but if what you are doing is knowingly illegal, I say DON'T DO IT! And by the way, that tank has an awful lot of water for dart frogs........it would be more suited for a more aquatic amphibian, dart frogs are terrestrial. But that's beside the point.........


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Also, talking with the guy that breed the frogs, he sayd that is ok to put 4 of them in this setup...

I don't know. Alarms are going off in my head.
I would question anyone who told you its OK to put four frogs in that tank. that would be a very bad idea. Way too much water. it makes me think the guy that told you its ok doesn't know what he is talking about. Plus they guy is trying to sell you illegal frogs.

Dude in all honesty, I would recommend not associating with this "breeder". He's giving you bad advice and try to sell you illegal goods. 

And please do not take this as anything other then sincere concern for you behalf. 

Best of luck and if you have questions please, please ask.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

It's going to be a great looking tank. Are you planning to put fish in the water area?

Some neons or cardinals would look great Maybe a few clown loaches.

Deb


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

salix said:


> It's going to be a great looking tank. Are you planning to put fish in the water area?
> 
> Some neons or cardinals would look great Maybe a few clown loaches.
> 
> Deb


Yes, but didn't decided on the species yet. Maybe some Killies...



PantMan said:


> Also, talking with the guy that breed the frogs, he sayd that is ok to put 4 of them in this setup...
> 
> I don't know. Alarms are going off in my head.
> I would question anyone who told you its OK to put four frogs in that tank. that would be a very bad idea. Way too much water. it makes me think the guy that told you its ok doesn't know what he is talking about. Plus they guy is trying to sell you illegal frogs.
> ...


Well, the only way of getting most of the "exotic" pets here in Brazil are illegal. But that doesn't mean that they're all WC. The breeder that is selling me the frogs is in the hobby for 10 years and told that was very sucessful breeding the galactonotus, a specie that is listed in every forum as hard to breed.



lincolnrailers said:


> Dude, almost all of us are conservation minded hobbyists! I can't speak for everyone, but if what you are doing is knowingly illegal, I say DON'T DO IT! And by the way, that tank has an awful lot of water for dart frogs........it would be more suited for a more aquatic amphibian, dart frogs are terrestrial. But that's beside the point.........


Here in the forum has a guy who has kept galactonotus(I think the yellow ones) for 10 years in paludarium way bigger than mine... I'm gonna try to find his posts.

Also I can't see how a frog would drown in this tank as he can climb everywhere.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

dart frogs CAN swim, but aren't known for being great swimmers. So the water is mostly wasted space they won't be using. If the tank is for darts, it should have more land, and less water. if you want a mixed species tank (although it's not recommended), with fish and frogs, I wouldn't put darts in that tank. Maybe an aquatic frog species and fish, but not darts.

But again, getting illegal frogs is not something I would do. I know some people think it's ok if you don't get caught (like shoplifting), but anyone who's truly concerned about the frogs won't keep frogs that are illegal. 

How well do you know the breeder? Can you verify that they are captive bred? How do you know he's not poaching the rainforest? He could be like the people that are "farm raising" darts in Panama, aka poaching. And I could be wrong, but the Brazilian government takes these things pretty seriously, don't they?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

This paludarium would be perfect for a species like Mossy Frogs, which live in and out of the water. This is not an appropriate living environment for most dendrobatids.

Take care, Richard.



Vinicam said:


> I'm still buying the plants and they should arrive this week. Also I'm trying to clear the water, but probably will change the substrate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

lincolnrailers said:


> But again, getting illegal frogs is not something I would do. I know some people think it's ok if you don't get caught (like shoplifting), but anyone who's truly concerned about the frogs won't keep frogs that are illegal.


I'm not pointing at you in particular, just grabbing the last quote regarding the legality. When I was in Costa Rica last year, I was talking to our tour guide about dart frogs. She was very jealous of my collection, because it was illegal for her to keep pdf's.

I was just assuming he's saying the frogs are illegal, much the same as it's not legal to keep/sell native species here. I'd love to buy a ringneck snake, but you can't buy them in CA since they are found here. At least that's what I was told at the reptile show.

Anyway, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt as to why the frogs are illegal. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just not choosing to judge.

Killies would look great in there!

Deb


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## LRobb88 (Dec 16, 2008)

salix said:


> I was just assuming he's saying the frogs are illegal, much the same as it's not legal to keep/sell native species here. I'd love to buy a ringneck snake, but you can't buy them in CA since they are found here. At least that's what I was told at the reptile show.
> 
> Anyway, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt as to why the frogs are illegal. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just not choosing to judge.
> Deb


I agree that that's probably the reason for the law. 

But let's be clear that the reason you can't buy a ringneck snake isn't because someone is just imposing arbitrary laws. It's to protect the species and make sure that people aren't going out, capturing and breeding them and selling them (or in some other way compromising the ecosystem) thereby stealing from the natural population and the resources to which we're all equally entitled. Whether you (or Vinicam) thinks the reason for the law is just or not, it's there to protect a natural resource. 

I'm not going to sit here and preach about what's right or wrong because I've never liked people telling me what to do and it sounds like this guy's made up his mind anyway. I just think it's dangerous to simplify laws like that...it's a slippery slope especially in the dart frog game where we all want some things that are more easily available in the shady avenues than in the legitimate ones.

OT:
It's like that scene in the movie "Blow," where he says something like, "So, I brought some plants across an imaginary line..." haha


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Vinicam,

This may be the thread you were thinking of...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/30328-galactonotus-temperment-questions.html

Sally


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## deengo1975 (Feb 23, 2010)

There is too much water in this tank and not enough land area. Everybody else seems to have pointed this out and there seems to be no concern on your part.


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

srrrio said:


> Vinicam,
> 
> This may be the thread you were thinking of...
> 
> ...


That's the exactly one.




As for the illegality, let me explain some things.

The list of allowed exotic animals to care is very tiny, and don't include amphibians in it. Also, people aren't allowed to export any species of those animals and plants included. So, theoretically, the majority of species native from Brazil that a lot of hobbysts use in their tanks are from illegal sources in the first place.

The laws in Brazil regarding preservation(and a lot other fields) are made by retrogressive minds. The same can be said about the heads of the IBAMA(Brazilian Institute of Environment and Natural Resources), that seize exotic animals from people, but for lack of resources, throw them in large areas without the minimal conditions suitable for their care. Often taking from people who kept them in terms much more appropriate. Now when it comes to combat wild animals traffic, the institution does not work very well...

Just so you have an idea, IBAMA employees hired through public concourse, many of the positions without any prerequisites beyond basic education. That is, the number of employees trained in the care of animals is very low.

So I think it's easy to a person that live in a country well developed, with concrete laws regarding care of exotic animals, and where you can buy a snake in any pet shop, to say me not to get illegal frogs. 

Also, all the species mentioned in the topic that would be better suited for my paludarium are illegal too. ;P






And the breeder that I will get the animals is in the hobby for about 10 years and is know of other hobbysts.


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

Also, I can't really understand why the paludarium that I posted can't hold 3~4 frogs... It's a +/- 46 gallon tank, with a lot of vertical area(plus the plants that I'm going to put), more half the superficie area of the tank. Just because the front is all water doesn't mean I don't have enough land area, as I see thousands of people here in the forum that have 3~4 frogs in a 10 gallon that looks to me that can't only hold a betta fish...


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Vinicam said:


> Also, I can't really understand why the paludarium that I posted can't hold 3~4 frogs... It's a +/- 46 gallon tank, with a lot of vertical area(plus the plants that I'm going to put), more half the superficie area of the tank. Just because the front is all water doesn't mean I don't have enough land area, as I see thousands of people here in the forum that have 3~4 frogs in a 10 gallon that looks to me that can't only hold a betta fish...


It's funny that you mentioned 3-4 frogs in a 10 gallon. When I look at your tank it seems to me that you have less than 10 gallons worth of space that a DART frog will utilize. It seems to me that you have failed to build a tank around your choice of frog as it is not specific to his needs. Do not get me wrong, you have created an awesome set up, it is just not an appropriate set up for the inhabitant you have chosen. I'm sure with a little research you can find an animal(s) that will use the entire tank and benefit from having both land and water available. You have received alot of advice that is backed with alot of experience, noone here is trying to steer you wrong, we only want to see both you and your frogs have success. Good luck and whatever you decide to do...post some more pictures!!


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

randommind said:


> It's funny that you mentioned 3-4 frogs in a 10 gallon. When I look at your tank it seems to me that you have less than 10 gallons worth of space that a DART frog will utilize. It seems to me that you have failed to build a tank around your choice of frog as it is not specific to his needs. Do not get me wrong, you have created an awesome set up, it is just not an appropriate set up for the inhabitant you have chosen. I'm sure with a little research you can find an animal(s) that will use the entire tank and benefit from having both land and water available. You have received alot of advice that is backed with alot of experience, noone here is trying to steer you wrong, we only want to see both you and your frogs have success. Good luck and whatever you decide to do...post some more pictures!!


I tought on expanding the land area, but I gonna wait till the plants arrive to see if it's going really to be necessary. Also I wans thinking in 4 frogs because I read in the forum that Galactos do better in groups.
But I don't know if you guys are getting the notion of dimension in the tank... The frogs have 3~4cm each, and the tank have is 100cm long x 40cm wide x 50cm tall, and almost all the area was used. I'm not saying it is perfect for pdfs, but I tought that the size was enough. And I still can't see how the frogs would drown as I already saw a lot of paludariums made for PDF's. 

And I will post more pics. Actually I posted pics of the cover in the Parts & Construction.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I think they are going to LOVE it, it looks like there are fairly deep ledges on your background which I am sure they will utilize those and love the water features. I would agree to increase the land area a bit as well though ...that way you can fit in a bigger area for leaf litter which my galacs love as well as the upper parts of their tanks

Sally.


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

srrrio said:


> I think they are going to LOVE it, it looks like there are fairly deep ledges on your background which I am sure they will utilize those and love the water features. I would agree to increase the land area a bit as well though ...that way you can fit in a bigger area for leaf litter which my galacs love as well as the upper parts of their tanks
> 
> Sally.




I did the background thinking on PDF's and made a lot of "mini cliffs", also used the biggest piece of wood that I could fit in the tank for the frogs(ok, and the visual) as well.

The problem of increasing the land area is how to separate the land from touching too much the water... But I'm working on it(in my head). 

I pretend to add leaf litter as well, but just after getting all the plants. Right now I'm trying to find good broms that the frogs would use. Despite living in Brazil, it's not so easy to find a good variety of broms in stores. D:


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

What we're trying to say is, you've wasted most of the space of the tank. The darts will not just sit in deep water. So 98% of the time they will be on the land space, which is a small portion of the tank. If you got a different illegal species like aquatic frogs, they would use more of the tank.


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

lincolnrailers said:


> What we're trying to say is, you've wasted most of the space of the tank. The darts will not just sit in deep water. So 98% of the time they will be on the land space, which is a small portion of the tank. If you got a different illegal species like aquatic frogs, they would use more of the tank.


If I get a aquatic specie, it won't use the vertical space. Also, lots of people who keep galactos said that they like to use the water features.

I can't understand why all this concern in not using 95% of the tank for the land space. My land area is +/- the same as of a 15 gallon tank, plus the vert area. Still, I'm thinking in a way to increase the land area...

If the concern is about the frogs drowning, besides I'm not in the hobby yet, I doubt a frog would drown in this tank, the only way I see this happening is if something stop the frog to get out or trap him in the water, and I'm not letting anything like that to happen.

In the last year I was able to have a pair of phyllomedusas, besides them being tree frogs they could do pretty well on water too, as I think most of the amphibians can do...


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

You're missing the point here. The point is not that you cannot stick dart frogs in there. You can do whatever you want (even if it's illegal...). That still won't change the fact that that tank is not set up for darts. If you're set on darts then you should change things around. If you're dead set on the enclosure then you should change your choice of inhabitants.

Your choice, do whatever you want, but please don't go about ignoring the ample advice of keepers with many years more experience than you just because you think it will be okay. I promise you that that will be a mistake.

As far as some darts liking water features. Take a look through the member viv section and do a search for the species you want to keep. Most vivs with water features have 1) ample land space and 2) less/shallower water features.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Dude that tank has way too little land area for darts... It's a very nice tank I'll give you that, but its just not good for darts. Darts really don't use water features that much. People that use water features usually make it for themselves, not the frogs. Dart frogs would much rather prefer land area over water area.


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

PeanutbuttER said:


> You're missing the point here. The point is not that you cannot stick dart frogs in there. You can do whatever you want (even if it's illegal...). That still won't change the fact that that tank is not set up for darts. If you're set on darts then you should change things around. If you're dead set on the enclosure then you should change your choice of inhabitants.
> 
> Your choice, do whatever you want, but please don't go about ignoring the ample advice of keepers with many years more experience than you just because you think it will be okay. I promise you that that will be a mistake.
> 
> As far as some darts liking water features. Take a look through the member viv section and do a search for the species you want to keep. Most vivs with water features have 1) ample land space and 2) less/shallower water features.


I'm not ignoring it, that's for sure. What I don't like is people that come to the topic, look at the pics(ignoring the main topic question btw) and post something like "this tank has too many water, take a fish and you'll be good, kkthxbye." or "I never saw it happening, but your frogs will drown", etc...

People like pointing problems but don't like suggestin solutions.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Vinicam said:


> People like pointing problems but don't like suggestin solutions.


problem: not enough land, too much water.

solution: make more land, remove 50% of the water.


short and simple


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

thedude said:


> problem: not enough land, too much water.
> 
> solution: make more land, remove 50% of the water.
> 
> ...


Pretty simple, huh?


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Well to answer you original question most people care for the eggs and tads and raise them until they are a suitable sized froglet (normally several months out the the water or until they can consume fruit flies). then they sell them off. 

The reason people are hijacking the thread is because you posted pictures of your viv and the members became a little concerned because you viv is not an ideal environment for dart frogs. (btw you posted the pics which were off topic so your as guilty as anyone else for hijacking your own the thread).

I'm getting the impression you're getting a little frustrated and angered by the post and that is understandable, however, I think I can speak for most people when I/we say were not trying to be critical or condemning in any way shape or form. What we have observed is someone new to dart frogs that needs a little help and that is all we are trying to do. Most members primary interest is the well being of the frogs. I can tell you that I made several mistakes when I built my first viv's. I'm still learning, its a process. Don't take any criticism too hard but take it to heart. You will find there are some extremely intelligent people that post to this forum and we are all learning. 

Congratulations on discovering the world of dart frogs you will find they are an absolutely an amazing and beautiful creature.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Vinicam said:


> The problem of increasing the land area is how to separate the land from touching too much the water... But I'm working on it(in my head).


Geez guys, I think the OP got the idea of our suggestions awhile ago. In addition, no one bothered to look at the thread that inspired the OP. Apparently a gal cannot be subtle so for your convenience here it is again. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/30328-galactonotus-temperment-questions.html

You might take note of how long, at the time of the post, the person who had the palladium, had kept her frogs in that tank!

Sally


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

hey man, i'm not the most experienced guy on this site by a long shot, but i have some constructive criticism that may help. 

one way you can make that water feature more 'usable' for frogs is to make it a lot shallower. i put water features in the corners of all of my vivs because i like to bury my pumps so i can remove them without disturbing the substrate. so if i have a pump that fails on a drip wall, i can scoop out a handful of gravel and remove a little section of egg crate and get to my pump without taking out substrate or disturbing my background. 

i've noticed in the past few weeks that my azureus love to hang out near the sloping edge of the water feature because the springtails seem to hop out of the substrate a lot here. the frogs will wait for the springs to fall into the pond (which is about knee deep on a frog) and then pick them off the top of the water while they float there ... 

maybe you could keep a portion of your water section deep for some fish if you really want to keep them, and build up the bottom with some gravel and/or some hard wood in other sections. this way the frogs may potentially use the shallow water as a hunting ground for springs like mine have, or they may use it as a deposition site for tads in the future if you allow them to raise their own in the tank. wood, aquatic plants, and the like will also discourage tadpole cannibalism by giving them additional places to hide if they're deposited in the water. the key element here is gentle slopes that the frogs can easily crawl in and out of. 

as for your original question. most people on here trade or sell their offspring to other froggers in the area. if you can't find many other people near you that want to keep them, i'm sure you could give some back to the breeder you bought them from originally. you can also discourage breeding by providing less egg laying sites or keeping your humidity a little on the low side. (see jake's comments from earlier tonight on the largest thumbnail post)

good luck with the frogs. please understand that while it may seem like people on here are picking on you, they're really truly trying to help. this is by far the most helpful online community i've ever experienced, and they truly are knowledgeable in this field. 

-brett


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Vinicam said:


> The red arrows show the water flux
> The ballons show the waterfalls
> And the drops are the drip walls


Can you post a pic of the tanks from the top? It's very hard to see how much land is there, from these pics. Pics from the front don't really show depth imo. At least, I can't take one that does.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I don't have a problem with the water with frogs. I think people are overly concerned about that. but that tank is only like 40 gallons or so. I'm not sure of the exact conversion but the dimensions are just a bit bigger then the typical 30gals we have here. Anyways 40 gallons that is mostly land area might be good for 4 frogs...maybe five if you do really well maximizing surface area, but you've used up most of the land surface area with water. I think your tank is good for 1 frog, maybe 2 assuming it ends up being really well planted. 

Galacts can and will climb some but they are still considered a mostly terrestrial species, not arboreal and you are giving them very little ground area, its almost all vertical area. They may survive but that is not the ideal setup for them. Don't force them to live in a mostly vertical habitat when that is not their preferred way to live. Thumbnail frogs may actually be better for a tank like that. Since they are so much smaller its easier for them to take advantage of all the ledges, and surface area on a mostly vertical background. 

It sounds like the people you've been talking to are mostly telling you what you want to hear and not what is best for the frogs. You could just drop a couple large rocks in the water to get a little more land, but still I don't think short of filling in most of the pond there is anything you can do that would make that tank suitable for more then 2 frogs, maybe 3 but that would probably be pushing it and I'm talking about after making extensive modifications to the design. Doesn't look like you'll have much area for springtails and woodlice to establish themselves in the soil either which helps keep your frog fed and the tank clean. 

As far at the question of what to do with egg/tads, if you don't want eggs and tads don't breed the frogs, separate them. You can just stop pulling eggs or tads but in a tank like that if they do breed you'll probably have some morph out on their own in the tank. That will slow down production but it will not stop it. So you need to sell/trade the offspring or build more vivs unless you are willing to separate your pair. Part of being a responsible pet owner is NOT BREEDING your animals sometimes if you can't care for the young. 

As far as the legal issues, I'm not sure how it is there. If there is basically no legal herp hobby in the country then I'm not going to cry to much about an underground one, unless they are basically ripping endangered frogs out of the wild from your own country or nearby ones to sell to you and others. If the populations can support a little harvesting ok, but they need to stay away from frogs and other animals that are in real danger of going extinct with only small populations left. 

If you are supporting people basically smuggling frogs to support a local underground hobby then you are as much a part of the problem as the people that steal frogs from your country and take them to Europe or the USA. So you need to be really careful about what you buy and whether or not it is captive bred and under what circumstances was it captive bred if you are going to be an ethical keeper.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

btcope said:


> hey man, i'm not the most experienced guy on this site by a long shot, but i have some constructive criticism that may help.
> 
> one way you can make that water feature more 'usable' for frogs is to make it a lot shallower. i put water features in the corners of all of my vivs because i like to bury my pumps so i can remove them without disturbing the substrate. so if i have a pump that fails on a drip wall, i can scoop out a handful of gravel and remove a little section of egg crate and get to my pump without taking out substrate or disturbing my background.
> 
> ...


great post. I like doing water features too, but simple ones that are very shallow in one corner, so if the pump goes out it is easily replaced.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

to the OP, You started the whole tang in a five gallon thing didn't you?


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> I don't have a problem with the water with frogs. I think people are overly concerned about that. but that tank is only like 40 gallons or so. I'm not sure of the exact conversion but the dimensions are just a bit bigger then the typical 30gals we have here. Anyways 40 gallons that is mostly land area might be good for 4 frogs...maybe five if you do really well maximizing surface area, but you've used up most of the land surface area with water. I think your tank is good for 1 frog, maybe 2 assuming it ends up being really well planted.
> 
> Galacts can and will climb some but they are still considered a mostly terrestrial species, not arboreal and you are giving them very little ground area, its almost all vertical area. They may survive but that is not the ideal setup for them. Don't force them to live in a mostly vertical habitat when that is not their preferred way to live. Thumbnail frogs may actually be better for a tank like that. Since they are so much smaller its easier for them to take advantage of all the ledges, and surface area on a mostly vertical background.
> 
> ...


The tank is something near 46 gallons or so... Either way I shall start with less frogs, a pair would be good, but my fear is to buy just 2 frogs and them discover that they are of the same sex....

As for the legality question, I searched to make sure the frogs weren't wild captures.



frogfreak said:


> Can you post a pic of the tanks from the top? It's very hard to see how much land is there, from these pics. Pics from the front don't really show depth imo. At least, I can't take one that does.


Will try to do that when I get home.



curlykid said:


> to the OP, You started the whole tang in a five gallon thing didn't you?


Sorry for my bad english, but I can't understand what you're trying to say. lol



btcope said:


> hey man, i'm not the most experienced guy on this site by a long shot, but i have some constructive criticism that may help.
> 
> one way you can make that water feature more 'usable' for frogs is to make it a lot shallower. i put water features in the corners of all of my vivs because i like to bury my pumps so i can remove them without disturbing the substrate. so if i have a pump that fails on a drip wall, i can scoop out a handful of gravel and remove a little section of egg crate and get to my pump without taking out substrate or disturbing my background.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking in making it shallower, but I don't know yet if it's the best solution to ruin with the water feature. As for the pump, it is in an easy spot to remove so I'm not worry about that.

Maybe lifting the ground would be the best solution...



srrrio said:


> Geez guys, I think the OP got the idea of our suggestions awhile ago. In addition, no one bothered to look at the thread that inspired the OP. Apparently a gal cannot be subtle so for your convenience here it is again.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/30328-galactonotus-temperment-questions.html
> 
> ...


Thank's for the "help"! Hehe....


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Part of the reason for the increased land space for the frogs is so that the microfauna, or small bugs, can have a place to live and enrich the frog's diet. The dart frog needs a variety of feeder insects to be optimally healthy, not just vitamin-dusted fruit flies. With that much water, there will be little area for your frog to feed and little time for him to catch his prey before the flies are drowned. Also, frogs need somewhere to hide out---I see no such area like that in your tank, and you risk infection from the frog having 'wet feet' and developing sores on him, or stress-related illness from lack of hiding places. Those are the primary concerns. 

Personally, if I were you, I would not buy frogs from someone who says a paludarium is ideal for keeping dart frogs, let alone an illegal source. View some pictures of vivariums on this site to get a better idea of a healthy habitat for dart frogs.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Looks nice. Why not add some more wood and or rocks in the water section? More natural and will provide additional land space without sacrificing the water portion. Plus, it will look cool and provide additional ramps for the frogs to utilize if they need to get out of the water.


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> Part of the reason for the increased land space for the frogs is so that the microfauna, or small bugs, can have a place to live and enrich the frog's diet. The dart frog needs a variety of feeder insects to be optimally healthy, not just vitamin-dusted fruit flies. With that much water, there will be little area for your frog to feed and little time for him to catch his prey before the flies are drowned. Also, frogs need somewhere to hide out---I see no such area like that in your tank, and you risk infection from the frog having 'wet feet' and developing sores on him, or stress-related illness from lack of hiding places. Those are the primary concerns.
> 
> Personally, if I were you, I would not buy frogs from someone who says a paludarium is ideal for keeping dart frogs, let alone an illegal source. View some pictures of vivariums on this site to get a better idea of a healthy habitat for dart frogs.





stemcellular said:


> Looks nice. Why not add some more wood and or rocks in the water section? More natural and will provide additional land space without sacrificing the water portion. Plus, it will look cool and provide additional ramps for the frogs to utilize if they need to get out of the water.


I will... But I don't know if you guys didn't read all my posts but I said that the paludarium isn't finished yet. I wasn't even thinking on posting pictures of it in this topic, but someone asked and them I copy/paste it from my topic in Parts and Construction...

I gonna add lots of plants and I'm still looking for rocks and wood to put in the water. As for hiding places... I'm sure it will have plenty when I finish adding plants, the remaining coco huts and leaves.



Also, I said everything I had to say about the illegality of keeping dart frogs here in Brazil.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

my question was an inside joke. some people may understand.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> Looks nice. Why not add some more wood and or rocks in the water section? More natural and will provide additional land space without sacrificing the water portion. Plus, it will look cool and provide additional ramps for the frogs to utilize if they need to get out of the water.


Exactly, some big river stones, and maybe even more wood laid partly in the water over and/or over the stones, and/or leaning up against the sides of the tank would add more surface area. 

I think you water level is fine. Frogs have an easier time drowning other frogs when the water gradually slopes from shallow to deep. Its not that common though especially if you set them up in the proper sex ratios. The species you get is going to determine alot of what you can do, some do best in pairs, maybe trios while others do fine in groups. If you add more surface area you may be able to get away with 3-4 frogs but you need to figure out the species and let us know so we can advise you better.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Vinicam said:


> I gonna add lots of plants and I'm still looking for rocks and wood to put in the water. As for hiding places... I'm sure it will have plenty when I finish adding plants, the remaining coco huts and leaves.



Philodendron seems very tolerant of wet conditions---Anubias is another one if you have a shady spot, too. Java Moss on the wood coming out of the water would look nice as well.


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

What about fire bellied toads. They love water and easy to feed. They will eat anything. Kinda comical too...


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

Love your water features. I personally have no issues with the legality of your dart frogs. If they are captive bred that is. There are plenty of laws in america I don't agree with. Sometimes a little civil disobedience is a good thing. Just be careful not to get in trouble my friend.


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## Vinicam (Sep 13, 2008)

Ok, I made an photo construction journal... You can see the tank with the plants there.

46G Paludarium Construction Photo Jornal

Note that I had increased the land area considerably, although it don't look that way it has increased about 30% of what it was. I'm still trying to find cool pieces of rock to make a platform anyway.


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