# Frog Trends and the Danger of Species Loss



## Mywebbedtoes

If you have been in or around the Dart Frog hobby for even just a few years you have seen trends come and go with frogs. When I came in, Tincs were still going strong, but thumbs were the new rage. Currently we are in the middle of a Pumilio craze. Based on a few conversations I have head, it looks like some other stuff might be coming into the hobby shortly that could shift the trends yet again.

The problem with the rise of one, is often the fall of another. People loose interest in a frog and it can virtually disapear from the hobby, in fact this has happened. With that in mind, what frogs are currently at risk? I will start with a few the I have noticed. Some have been hard to get the whole time I have kept frogs.

_Tinctorius Lorenzo
Tinctorius Brazilian Yellow Head
Galactonotus 
Phyllobates bicolor_

I cannot say if these are in danger of being lost in the hobby or not, but they seem to have dropped way off. I know there is way more than this list, and more experienced keepers than myself can speak to that.

I think it would be good to raise awareness about these species and encourage people to take a closer look at what we have before what we could have. TWI/ASN can certainly help with this problem, but it seems we also need a change in the way we think about our collecting.

Just for full disclosure, I have rather strong opinions on imports (not in every case) and collecting unknown animals. Search the threads I have started and you will see my stances.

I am interested on other keepers observations on this.


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## sounddrive

well i would like to add a few if you dont mind.
Reticulatus (as always)
Bluejeans
Stnd Lamasi
Matecho's
Blue and Black Auratus (seeing less and less over the past 3 years
Regina's


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## Mywebbedtoes

To add to this, I have cherry picked from another thread I had going about imports.



frogfarm said:


> There is really nothing but azureus established in the hobby. Every "major" breeder has a few of their own morphs and overlap on things like cobalts, azureus and leucs. I haven`t seen cobalts available in a while as well as dwarf tincs, brazilian tincs or nic or costa rican auratus, etc. etc.




Ed's Responce


Ed said:


> At this time I don't think that any species of dendrobatids are well established. Unless/until the populations have sufficient numbers being managed to sustain the genetic variation it isn't well established.
> 
> Aaron, azureus are on the same path as those tincts you mentioned, they are just a little slower on the down curve. At the second to last IAD auction, azureus were going unsold at $15 each...
> 
> Ed


Just some more food for thought.


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## Mywebbedtoes

Someone else mentioned Rectics the other day, I can't recall who. I think what is sad is that these are amazing animals. I don't have anything "special" in my collection, but to me they are all outstanding non-the-less. What are your thoughts on these trends Sounddrive?


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## sounddrive

personally i try not to follow them. i think its amazing how some peoples preference to what they want, can come based solely on the trend that is going through at that time. I feel all darts have something special to offer. what the less visually attractive lack in looks is usually made up in personality. i have frogs i keep only cause i like their call.


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## Julio

well it seems that people really just want what they can't really get, like Vanzos, i wanted vanzos way before they came into the hobby as they are 1 of my favorites, then you have the mint terriblis phase where there were so many a few years ago and then no one would be able to sell them and now they are in hihg demand again.


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## ggazonas

sounddrive said:


> personally i try not to follow them. i think its amazing how some peoples preference to what they want, can come based solely on the trend that is going through at that time. I feel all darts have something special to offer. what the less visually attractive lack in looks is usually made up in personality. i have frogs i keep only cause i like their call.


I agree with you on the issue about keeping frogs because of their call. I keep both vittatus and femoralis and would say that visualy neither frog is exceptional in color but they both have their own interesting ebhavior and unique calls compared to some of the others I keep.
Frankly to me the calling of these frogs is just as amazing as their colors and I would pick a more vocal frog over one that is more colorful.

And like soundrive says they all have soemthing to offer, afterall they are all amzing creatures.

One day what we have may be rare and then the trend will be for the frogs poeple can't have.


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## JoshH

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Someone else mentioned Rectics the other day, I can't recall who. I think what is sad is that these are amazing animals. I don't have anything "special" in my collection, but to me they are all outstanding non-the-less. What are your thoughts on these trends Sounddrive?



Where did the Retics all go? It seems they never have been commonly bred in the states but still....their price never did go down though. They are at the top of my Christmas wish list this year!


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## NathalieB

While I agree with you that there obviously are trends in which frogs are hot and which frogs are not I am wondering what you could do about it;
it is human nature to always want the next big thing, to want something exclusive, expensive, even illegal...
You cannot force people to go for one frog because nobody else is interested in it... I always think people have best results with the frogs they really want.

I also think some of the species disapear because they are more difficult to breed/keep and aren't being imported anymore (blue jeans, reticulates, lorenzo ... I don't think these are "out of fashion", just hard to get) , while others do go out of fashion because they breed too well and the market is overfloaded with them (auratus, anthony/tricolor, ... never nice to have to worry where to "get rid" of your offspring)

funny to see the differences between Europe/US. You say Matecho is at the risk of disapearing while here it is the "new hot frog" and there seem to be quit a lot of people breeding them for the moment.


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## jubjub47

One aspect to keep in mind also is space. Not everyone can set up a frog room and have 20 vivs. I'm sure that many people have to decide to give up a species to begin to work with new species. In theory the old species would make it's way into another froggers hands who would continue on the breeding, but I'm sure that it doesn't happen that way.

To add a few to the list.

Non bronze auratus 
cobalt tincs
alanis & inferalanis tincs


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## Shockfrog

I'm not sure which frogs used to be in the US hobby which have disappeared,but here in Europe it is really a shame how many species have disappeared completely. As I'm really into all those unknown frogs and really want to preseve them, I found many species are simply gone but used to be in the hobby for sure:
-Ameerega boliviana
-Ameerega pulchripecta
-Ameerega parvula
-Ameerega flavopicta
-Hyloxalus nexipus (used to be in the hobby under H. sauli)
-Hyloxalus elachyhistus
-Silverstoneia flotator
-Anomaloglossus degranvillei
-Colostethus pratti
-Colostethus panamensis (used to be in the hobby under C. inguinalis)

Species prone to disappear very soon:
-Ameerega bilinguis (I haven't heard of any breeding in the last couple of years)
-Epipedobates machalilla (I know only one guy working with the species)
-Ameerega petersi (I know about only one female)

Other very sensitive species:
-Allobates zaparo
-Allobates femoralis
-Ameerega picta
-Mannophryne trinitatis
-Mannophryne olmonae

And then ofcourse there are species like some mentioned in the original post which are symply not trendy enough but not yet likely to disappear:
-Phyllobates vittatus
-Adelphobates galactonotus
-Dendrobates truncatus
-Ameerega bassleri
-Ameerega trivittatus
-and other some others maybe...

...and the above lists are just the ones that came to my mind (difficult to breed eggfeeders not included). So it's even worse! Well that's a hell of a shame if you ask me! Nothing to be proud of...

Remco


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## morselchip

I'll add the one I've been looking for. To me, it looks like most of the galacts are starting to establish themselves- except the 'koi' morph. I sent out a feeler for these several months ago, and only found Sean Stewart to even have any!

Shameless plug: If you have some froglets, juvis, pm me!


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## sounddrive

morselchip said:


> I'll add the one I've been looking for. To me, it looks like most of the galacts are starting to establish themselves- except the 'koi' morph. I sent out a feeler for these several months ago, and only found Sean Stewart to even have any!
> 
> Shameless plug: If you have some froglets, juvis, pm me!


as far as know (correct me if im wrong) but i think the koi moph isnt an actual morph but a trait of some of the other galacts he had. most galacts are starting to make comeback except red and moonshine.


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## ggazonas

I have seen the orange and yellows availble more consistenly in the last six months. I myself have orange galacts and besides some difficulty in breeding I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be any more popular than leucs or other outgoing frogs like that.


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## morselchip

You are very likely right they are a man-made 'morph'. I just double checked Sean's listing though, and it doesn't sound like he's 100% sure- they were brought over as a separate type. They have been in the US since '01, so they may just be slow breeders?


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## rozdaboff

Ron started a thread last week that I think complements this thread nicely: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/34607-most-underappreciated-frogs.html

The frogs that are on the bottom edge of a trend are usually the ones that are the most underappreciated.

A couple of frogs that I think were mentioned in that thread - but maybe not mentioned here yet include the following. One thing that is important to note - is that while these frogs may still be more plentiful than rarer frogs - the dramatic change in the size of the captive population is a concerning trend.

Nominat imitator 
Mint Terribilis
French Guiana Vents
P. aurotaenia (Green)
Azureiventris 
Panguana/Green Leg Lamasi

Also -- I think a distinction needs to be made regarding frogs that were once plentiful, and are in danger of disappearing vs. frogs that are difficult to reproduce in captivity and weren't very common to begin with. All of my opinions are based on my short time in the hobby (starting late 2004).



Mywebbedtoes said:


> _Tinctorius Lorenzo
> Tinctorius Brazilian Yellow Head
> Galactonotus
> Phyllobates bicolor_


I agree that many of the Tinctorius are in danger of disappearing. There were so many morphs available that it was very trendy for some to sell and others not to. You don't see many Lorenzo available at all. But I think that the BYH may be one of the better represented morphs out there today.

Galactonotus are one of those frogs that are tough to breed; besides the burst of yellows this year - they have only been sporadically available over the past several years.

Bicolor are another frog that weren't greatly represented in the hobby. There were probably more breeding frogs than are out there now - but it was a frog you had to look for rather than regularly seeing them available.



sounddrive said:


> well i would like to add a few if you dont mind.
> Reticulatus (as always)
> Bluejeans
> Stnd Lamasi
> Matecho's
> Blue and Black Auratus (seeing less and less over the past 3 years
> Regina's


Reticulatus and Standard lamasi are again frogs that were never very common (hence the high price for these frogs). I have seen too many froggers come and go in my time here on the board - but I would say that most of the Retics and Std. Lamasi are in "stable" collections. Whenever you are talking about a tough to breed frog that produces small clutches of eggs (2-4) - it is always going to be harder to find them.

Blue Jeans were only common due to the importation of the frogs. CB specimens were and are extremely hard to come by. I doubt that will change anytime in the near future.

Matechos are a "new" tinctorious morph in the US - only becoming available in the past 16 months or so. So - they are likely on the increase, not the decrease.

Reginas have seemed to take a nose-dive in the past year or so. But - they were quite popular not too long ago (2 years ago at the most) - so there are likely a good number of subadult frogs reaching breeding age out there.

Blue and black auratus have seemed to become less available - but that is a complex group to begin with. There are still "turquoise and bronze" auratus offered with some regularity - and there is debate on the differences between the blue and black/turquoise and bronze frogs. There are also a good number of super-blue auratus offered up.


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## skylsdale

There is also a danger in assuming that since a species is a prolific breeder, that it's "safe." Or it tends to become less desireable (e.g. doesn't have the "prestige" associated with other species). _Hyloxalus azureiventris_ is a classic example. 

Also, in regards to _E. tricolor_...the "Giron Valley" morph, last I heard, is officially lost from the hobby.


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## skylsdale

Shockfrog said:


> I'm not sure which frogs used to be in the US hobby which have disappeared,but here in Europe it is really a shame how many species have disappeared completely...


What I find interesting is that all of the frogs you listed are the "bigger" frogs like species of Ameerega (except maybe the Colostethus spp).

In this thread, at least in the states, it seems that many of the frogs currently on the fringe are the same types. Most of the frogs mentioned so far are Dendrobates spp. (tinctorius, auratus, truncatus) which seems ironic since these are the frogs most often described and touted as being "easy" or are best suited for "novice" hobbyists. If one is solely considering the act of keeping them alive in a vivarium, then yes, I suppose they could be...but in that regard I wouldn't consider most other PDFs really much more difficult (if at all) than these species.

I think one thing we don't think about is the actual *fecundity* (ability to reproduce) of a species. In this regard, I think the tables of ease quickly turn in regards to frogs like tinctorius, auratus, and truncatus. I think we really need to think about the length of period of development with these species: most don't hit sexual maturity/breeding age until 12-14 months after they morph, which is more delayed than the vast majority of thumbnail species. So you end up with a longer turn around time in how quickly a hobbyist can supply offspring vs. how many are being bought (and, unfortunately, lost). The gap is extended even more if the vast majority of these are then funneled toward new hobbyists who aren't able or up to the challenge of breeding them and seeing the offspring through to the next wave.

Simply because of this I would think species with these sorts of reproductive levels and extended timelines of maturation are automatically at a higher risk level for being lost from the hobby. 

Maybe it would be beneficial to ditch the entire idea of "easy" and "difficult" altogether and agree that all dendrobatids, regardless of size or color or species, require special care. We can't make blanket value statements, but have to speak to each individually: one species may be relatively forgiving of mistakes in care, but is quite challenging to breed...and another may breed more prolifically, but is more sensitive to changes in its care and environment. Neither is more easy or difficult as they each present a unique set of challenges.


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## Dendro Dave

Im a little worried about red galacts, all the bassleri and trivs and retics also, oh and what happend to new river and koetari tinc morphs?

I really thought the black bassleri would catch on. They are stunning frogs in my opinion, but even when there was finally some breeding success there didnt seem to be a huge demand. The price fell sharply. I wanted some but was broke at the time and missed the boat. Now i have a lonely male...the last of my dart frogs after the ice storm wiped me out, lost a couple of baby pumilo and i sold the remaining couple to finance my fox purchase.

Retics have always been on my list, but everytime i had that much money to spend i went for rarer stuff that i was afraid might not be around for long, and now its the retics that are getting hard to find.

Red galacts just dont seem to breed well for most people, im almost sure i had a pair in my group and in never got any action in a year, and i had 6.

im guessing new river and koetari have fallen off because of their resemblence to azureus....u gotta have azureus, but once u do....its kinda hard to buy a frog that looks very similar when other stuff is out there.

I got a lil cash, i think i'll go post a wanted ad for black bassleri.


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## Elphaba

rozdaboff said:


> Reticulatus and Standard lamasi are again frogs that were never very common (hence the high price for these frogs). I have seen too many froggers come and go in my time here on the board - but I would say that most of the Retics and Std. Lamasi are in "stable" collections. Whenever you are talking about a tough to breed frog that produces small clutches of eggs (2-4) - it is always going to be harder to find them.


I'm gonna agree with Oz here. I haven't been in the hobby too terribly long, but I've never really seen retics available or posted about all that often the entire time I've been actively participating in the dart world. In fact, it always surprised me when I DID see them. I believe only two vendors at NAAC had retics -- and there were an absolute ton of vendors, at least in my opinion, with a huge variety of frogs. However, because (like Oz said) the people who have retics tend to be fairly successful breeding them on at least a semi-regular basis, I'm not too worried about them disappearing from the hobby. One can find them if they're willing to wait long enough and have the cash on hand to pay for the expensive wee buggers.

D. tinctorius 'Lorenzo' are another story. I've only seen them for sale once in over a year and a half, and I think I can count on under ten fingers the number of people in the US who have them in their collections, myself included. This saddens me greatly because they're such a great frog, but you really just don't see them because they're either not breeding or people just don't have them. I can honestly say that right now, I'd think finding a female Lorenzo for my boys would be a greater accomplishment than nabbing a couple more retics. I keep waiting for someone else out there to have success breeding the Lorenzo so I can pair up mine, maybe get them going again -- but how long is that going to take, really?  Is the interest even there anymore?

Best,
Ash


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## Marty71

Personally I agree with Oz (and others). I think the frogs that may be in the most danger are the ones that you would think wouldn't be like the Azureus and many other Tincs, and the Nominat Imi's, and Auratus. 

I was thinking about this the other day from a slightly different perspective. I have been in the hobby for a little over two years. During that time I have bought or traded frogs with 13 different people. Of those 13 people only 6 of them are still active in the hobby. Then multiply this board wide. For months there have been established, knowledgeable frog keepers selling their collections or just flat out disappearing for a variety of reasons. While I realize DB is only a slice of the overall hobby, if you look at it as a sample, it seems to me that knowledgeable froggers are disappearing just as fast as some of the frogs mentioned previously. 

Some of the people that I purchased from were established breeders. What we all consider to be the more common frogs were the ones that sustained these people's operations. Nobody can survive as a business on the hope and prayer that a pair of rare pumillio will produce enough offspring to support their operation. Instead, they have to rely on the more "common frogs" to keep the lights on. Catch 22 being that when these frogs reach enough individual hobbyists the demand for these frogs from the breeders goes down as they can be purchased locally. Then if you follow the chain reaction downward the fate of the more these frogs is now left in the only partially capable hands of people like myself. 

To take it a step further, half of the people that have gotten into the hobby since I've been around are already gone. (my only point of reference being board posting and activity which is highly flawed). This seems to be a hobby that a lot of people hit the wall with. They post like crazy, buy too many frogs too fast, then realize they require time, effort, knowledge, and that the promise of breeding and sellable offspring is not a given. 

There is no way that this can't have a negative impact on the frogs. It took me well over a year to figure out what multiple people had told me (thanks Scott and Shawn) that you have to buy what you want and what you like. I bought three pairs of thumbs before I realized that I preferred bigger bolder frogs. I can't be the only one that has done this.

My incredibly long winded point is simply that the fate of some of the more beautiful, albeit "common" frogs may now lie in the hands of newer hobbyists. The professional breeders that treat this as a business can't be expected to devote valuable tank space to frogs that they may not be able to sell for more than $15 a piece. Azureus, Cobalts, Nominat Imi’s, and Auratus have all been posted repeatedly by the same sellers. Either they have large numbers or these frogs or people aren’t buying them. People stop buying them, all but the truly dedicated hobbyists will stop breeding them. To my mind that is what is happening. 

As a side note please don't take offense to my use of the term common frogs, it is not meant as a slight on many of the frogs I keep and consider my favorites, it is simply a reflection of my inability to come up with a better term.


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## rozdaboff

Marty - you make some excellent points. Another thing that has to be figured in on this discussion is the current economic climate. There are those in this hobby that keep and breed frogs for the love of the frogs; there are those that keep and breed the frogs for their income (or at least part of it); and there are a lot of people who do it for both. The way I see it - the poor economy hurts these frogs in two ways (although there are probably many more)

1) The frogs at greatest risk of disappearing are predominantly the frogs with a low market value right now. If those working with these frogs require an economic return - then it no longer becomes financially feasible to breed them. I personally don't look at each froglet produced in terms of how much money it took to raise them, so I don't know how much it would be - but I am sure there is a break point. Those frogs are no longer profitable to work with - and therefore the stock becomes expendable.

2) A lot of people have a good amount of money invested in their frogs (I don't even want to think about numbers). If times get hard - then they may have to become expendable to pay the bills. The price point on the frogs can't be too high - or they won't sell. If the price point is low enough - then they may go into unexperienced hands - and the frogs disappear from the hobby.

With the recent imports of locale specific frogs with good founder populations - it would be horrible to see those opportunities for proper breeding and genetic conservation fall through our fingertips.


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## flyingkip

Elphaba said:


> D. tinctorius 'Lorenzo' are another story. I've only seen them for sale once in over a year and a half, and I think I can count on under ten fingers the number of people in the US who have them in their collections, myself included. This saddens me greatly because they're such a great frog, but you really just don't see them because they're either not breeding or people just don't have them. I can honestly say that right now, I'd think finding a female Lorenzo for my boys would be a greater accomplishment than nabbing a couple more retics. I keep waiting for someone else out there to have success breeding the Lorenzo so I can pair up mine, maybe get them going again -- but how long is that going to take, really?  Is the interest even there anymore?
> 
> Best,
> Ash


I've got a bit of the same problem. 
I've got 1.2, the females fight like hell, so I had to split them up. And now have a pair that is breeding (no good froglets up to now, and about 95% of all the eggs don't even develop into tads). And a lone female that wants to breed aswell (both females bred with the male untill they started fighting that hard.

To bad you live in the US. I'd be interested in trading a female for a second male!

Grtz
Thomas


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## Jayson745

what I guess I'm missing here, is where the frogs go? I mean if they have been imported in such large numbers, then easily bred, shouldn't there be too many frogs to find homes for at some point? I mean, even if someone leaves the hobby, they sell there frogs to someone else. If they live over 10 years, then where are they going that they aren't still producing more frogs? And when you think about all the offspring a single pair can produce, and all the offspring their offspring should be producing, we should be over run with these things by now. Is it a thing where most of them end up with people who lose interest and just starve them to death or what?

It just seems like we'd be seeing tv commercials saying "please get your frogs spayed or neutered" instead of talking about losing species because they magically disappeared from the hobby.


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## Roadrunner

I`ve built up a collection of 2-3 pr each of all the pumilio that came in. Now I`m down to one pair of each of 6 morphs. I still haven`t sold any El Dorado and there are 7 out from the first clutch, 5 from the last and 4+ just coming out of the broms. If they don`t sell you get overwhelmed w/ what you produce taking up all your space and time and then end up selling them and the next person can`t keep them breeding or alive. I haven`t been selling anything lately and it just keeps building up. I also haven`t seen offspring for sale from any of the pairs I sold off, tincs to pumilio. Their all in trouble. 1 pair can produce about enough offspring to supply the whole of the american hobby for most but azureus, leucs, etc. That`s why I`m focusing on the 3 colors of terribilis. No more than one line ever came in from each of the 3 so they`re already quite bottlenecked.
The problem is that we run down the inbred tree really quick in our hobby. I sell offspring to someone and they get them breeding, they sell said frog at $20ea which I can`t breed them to sell that cheap, they produce a couple offspring and find out it`s not that easy to sell them all, they sell their pair and the other person can`t breed them and then a year later someone is breeeding 3rd generation offspring when they all but dissappeared from the hobby.
When you decide to breed your frogs for fun realize your actions may be detrimental to the hobby. Realize that it`s up to all of you because a business, by nature of the equation, can`t do anything to save frogs. There are literally too many morphs available, too few long termers in the hobby and too few people buying all the frogs we produce to sustain this as anything but a hobby. 
By their nature frogs can exceed the #`s of unwanted cats and dogs in under a year.


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## Roadrunner

It`s too bad the offspring from the original import pairs weren`t tiered to top level(sought after/cost) since this would somewhat help w/ the problem of running down the generation tree in months/years. The problem w/ that is that people will always be looking for a deal and will seek out further generation offspring for a lower cost.


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## melissa68

Dendro Dave said:


> im guessing new river and koetari have fallen off because of their resemblence to azureus....u gotta have azureus, but once u do....its kinda hard to buy a frog that looks very similar when other stuff is out there.


We were lucky enough to pick up a wc pair of New Rivers when we first started and still have them. We do run into problems selling them because of what you said above. 

They are a big tinc - and the females are a bit of a bully.


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## stemcellular

Taking mantellas as an example proves an interesting exercise. Since WC frogs are frequently available for most species there has been very little emphasis on captive breeding. However, even in the case of mantella aurantiaca, which is no longer legally exported, CB frogs are rarely available. This may reflect a lessened interest in keeping golden mantellas. However, I'd posit that it may also represent a micro example of what can happen to a very popular species once those actively breeding them for popular distribution cease to do so. In this case, it is not unimaginable for auratus (which really are the golden mantella of the dendrobates) to suddenly become harder and harder to find. I actually just heard that the person that I bought my turq and bronze auratus from recently got out of the hobby. His line was originally from Michael Shrom. Sadly, I haven't seen additional frogs of this line for sale in some time.


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## Ed

Look at what happened with Melanophryniscus stelzneri.... there were cb animals around and not a lot of interest... 

Ed


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## Peter Keane

I have been in this hobby for many years 30+, started when I was 12 years old, my first dendrobatid frog I set eyes on was red and black D lehmanni in a local pet store.. it was housed well, humidity high, plenty of hiding spots and one thing I noticed was it was in with half grown crickets, I knew this was not the proper food for these... I asked the guy in the store what they eat.. and he said crickets.. I knew that was not the case.. so I went home and asked my dad, who was a pharmaceutical chemist who was working with these frogs for skin analysis.. he said they feed them ants and lab produced fruit flies.. I asked him if he could bring any home and he said yes.. so I plucked nearly my whole allowance for the month for the only 2 D lehmanni in the tank @$12.99 each, yes folks they were a whopping $12.99 each.. I also bought the tank they were kept in andleft it as is. My dad brought home some fruit fly cultures and I fed themto my new frogs and they gobbled them up.. He then set me up a large densely planted tank with an ultrasonic humidifier with some steep hills where I transferred them and they lived happily for me for 3 1/2 years (each died within the same month). Before they were with me for a year my Dad had built me a few of these larger vivariums and brought home a few of these frogs to expand my hobby... my dad thinking I wanted to go into the same field he was in.. But I didn't want to skin these frogs I wanted to adore them.. In the years of keeping these.. I had not met anyone else who shared my passion and I felt like I was alone.. until the same pet store was holding for me a couple of granuliferus and a single reticulatus only to find out when I go there with my paycheck in cash .. the guy said they were sold.. I was very disappointed and yet happy to realize someone else out there shared my love of these.. The owner of the store did not give out the man's name but allowed me to leave a message for him.. he was a Dr who needed a tank of these beautiful frogs for his waiting room.. Well he really did not share my love of these frogs other than to admire their beauty... Back in the early-late 80's anything was readily available from Histrionicus, pumilio (blue jeans), Cobalt tincs, auratus, granuliferus.. Then I saw an ad in Fauna Classifieds from another frogger from Wisconsin who shared my love of these frogs.. me being from NYC had a larger # of reptile dealers/distributors who had access to these frogs.. So began the trades.. then a few others joined in and we communicated by mail (snail mail) and passed information back and forth on these frogs.. well then an idea was born to create the first all Dart Frog Community, called the I.S.S.D. (International Society for the Study of Denrobatids), those old timers in this hobby may remember this.. I remember when traveling to Europe (Holland and Germany) on a few occasions I was amazed to see how many different species they had successfully kept and bred, especially the most sought after of all dendrobatids.. the blue frog, Dendrabtes azureus .. in the late 80's we had brought in a batch of these from Holland.. first ever to the hobby (E. Wevers line).. there were a select few (most experience) of us within this group had successfully bred tinctorius and were up for the huge challenge of successfully breeding these in captivity as these were the only ones available to the hobby.. I had what was labelled as 4 pairs which were housed together at first in a custom made 300 gallon vivarium.. Within a week or so I had 3 positive pairs and these were seperated into their own enclosures.. I had found eggs in the large vivarium after the other pairs were removed.. which turned out to be infertile, not sure if they were from the removed frogs or I had at least one additional female amongst the remaining 2.. It turned out to be 2 females.. They were fed heavily, automated misting systems, temperature controlled and fogging were included in each pairs vivarium.. and after several months of becoming acclimated to their new vivariums we had tads.. and more tads .. turns out as rare as this species was to the hobby.. they were quite productive.. once we established a good breeding colony we carefully mapped each frog's bloodlines and then began offering them to the remainder of the hobby (members and experienced froggers only).. A few of these frogs were also offered to the National Aquarium in Baltimore, where a few of these got into the hobby as NAIB bloodline, which they had wild caught and captive bred (E Wevers line), so NAIB may contain different bloodlines if you get any.. also there is some not so legal shipments that came in to the hobby, new blood as J Wattley.. whom I know as the Discus guru.. Also earlier attempts (many) to breed histrionicus (bulls-eye, red-faced, Ecuadorian red-black), lehmanni, pumilio (blue jeans), granifulerus all proved to fail.. we have had many eggs and sometimes froglets.. but nothing to keep the generation going and the supply of these once commonly cheaply (most around $25 each) exported frogs stopped due to legal issues, etc... so a frog once brought into the hobby needs to be captive bred ASAP to keep the breed going.. the constants being tincs, auratus and azureus were all bred successfully and constantly.. but we are not to forget the others who were once common and now virtually unattainable in the US... so for those who breed cobalt tincs, auratus and azureus, although very common in the hobby.. we must not let these species fade away to where we no longer have access to them.. Sorry for running on with this topic.. I just am so very passionate for these frogs... As for froggers who leave some always come back as the lure of these gems is too much to leave for good... herer have always been ups and downs in those who share this passion.. but this is a HUGE community to what it was when I started with all the new tools needed to be successful (internet, literature, videos, seminars etc.. )..Peter Keane, JungleWorld


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## rozdaboff

Great post Peter. Your perspective on the hobby provides great insight on its beginnings. I think that a lot of us young froggers take the species that are readily available to us for granted.


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