# SILKWORMS HELP/FOOD/ sustainable food?



## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

Hello guys,

I've been asked to start a thread to add some helpful information I have found to the dendroboards community! I'm grateful for the opportunity to share with you a little bit of what I have learned. 



SILKWORM NUTRITIONAL VALUE:::

FAT(%kcal)--- 43
CALCIUM(mg/cal)--- .5
Phosphorus(mg/kcal)--- .6
PROTIEN(%kcal)--- 54

I wanted to try my hand at these little guys to see if they were a good choice to feed my pets. I believe that silkworms are are suitable alternative to the fruit flies I have been feeding because of the following: High calcium content, Low phosphorus levels means less smelly crap from frogs, and high protein content, overall more food because they are bigger and last but not least they don't stink up your place if cared for properly(sorry fruit flies smell). They are soft bodied so they are easier to eat than dubias; The second contender was the lowly butterworm which I believe has the highest calcium content of any other feeder. I chose silkworms over butterworms because of the higher protein content AND lower phosphorus levels. 

In my opinion. they are best FOR: Phyllobates Terribilis and larger darts and toads. 

I was hoping to find some first hand testimonials to better learn what your thoughts are:

I am absolutely new and the eggs should hatch in 5 days. So come share the journey with me as I try my hand at silkworms. ANY TIPS ALL WELCOME! If you're in california and want to try tooooo Message me! FREE EGGS within next few days (MUST COME WITHIN NEXTY FEW DAYS before they hatch)


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

Where to start? lol I have them in a petri dish next to a heatlap(not too close) they are in a moderately stable environment during the day and night. I have silkworm powdered food. that you need to mix with water. Instructions say they are good for 1 month after adding water OR 6 months in powdered form.

5 more days!!!!


I am having issues right now with them being statically charged and sticking to the plastic. I can't move them around to prep the food as they are all scattered. I should have pictures in a few days.


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

Here are silkworm eggs


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

for size and a penny for comparison


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I've honestly never used them, but as long as they are the right size, they should be a suitable feeder. They are kinda high in fat compared to most feeders (very similar to waxworms), so that could be a potential problem (too much fat).

Another good alternative would be phoenix worms, which have a high phosphorous:calcium ratio

Superior Nutritional Benefits – Phoenix Worm Store









And here is an article with more potential feeders and their nutritional value:
Caudata Culture Articles - Nutritional Values


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

good thread to explore....possible things to feed...bet my yellow terriblis would eat the hell out of them.. Can you provide a little more information, or links to the info on where to order, how to feed out...how long one culture might be able to be fed...things of that sort. What kind of drawbacks can you see?


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## erik s (Apr 12, 2010)

Judy S said:


> What kind of drawbacks canyou see?


I had delt with silkworms when raising chameleons...they eat copious amounts of food and grow very quickly....you would only have a short time to feed out before they become too large to feed to darts!!! Imo....


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

I've personally used http://www.mulberryfarms.com/ they are based out of california and have dont an exceptional job at providing me with what I feel I need. They are running a sale right now which makes them the cheapest around (that I have found) when buying eggs. I even tried their hornworms but those are way too large for darts.


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

erik s said:


> I had delt with silkworms when raising chameleons...they eat copious amounts of food and grow very quickly....you would only have a short time to feed out before they become too large to feed to darts!!! Imo....


from what it looks like they seem to grow way fast. but I haven't grown then first hand yet.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

wonder what that window of time is, and whether they can be cultured to "bloom" in stages by refrigeration/temp. control.....


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

I think its possible but then you would need to have variable temperatures which would be hard to do. Today is 3-1-2015 I have babies!!!


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

I separated them depending on color today. 

I noticed that when the eggs hatched they changed colors from being a brown, rusty, or darker in color to being bone white in color. So I decided to count all the white eggs to get an estimate on how many worms I had and how many didn't hatch. I just wanted to see the hatch rates for me personally with the conditions I had given them. 6% of my eggs did not hatch. I did not have them in an incubator. 

RESULTS ARE IN::::::

bone white shells(hatched ones): 568
Unhatched darker colored eggs : 38


Also one other reason for separating the eggs was to avoid any molding or contamination with the food. The instructions given to me on their website stated that the silkworm chow could mold if they were in close proximity or touching eggs. 


I fed them today with silkworm chow and they seem to be all over it and loving it.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

you have too much time on your hands....lol


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## erik s (Apr 12, 2010)

benjaminfrogs said:


> RESULTS ARE IN::::::
> 
> bone white shells(hatched ones): 568
> Unhatched darker colored eggs : 38





Judy S said:


> you have too much time on your hands....lol


Agreed! !!!!!


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

lol I try to put detail in the things I do


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

so do your frogs eat these?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> wonder what that window of time is, and whether they can be cultured to "bloom" in stages by refrigeration/temp. control.....


Judy, 

the eggs can be refrigerated and then hatched in batches. Hatch success does go down over time but the eggs are fairly inexpensive when purchased in quantity. The main downside to this for dart frogs is that they will rapidly get too big. The chow mix that many vendors sell is pretty cheap and works well to rear the caterpillars. 
If you can find a culture, lesser waxworms are probably going to be a much better choice for dart frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

I would also think that silkies might have to much fat in their nutritional value to make them a contender replacing fruit flies. ED has some interesting sources that he could link here to give you the proper nutritional value of dart frog feeders.

I have lost in the past a super healthy bumble bee toad from excess feeding of waxworms. I would believe that it could have the same effects on a dart frog. Although I have not done any tests on the deceased frog, it's death only came when for a short week I had some extra waxworms to feed. Gave it to the toad for three days and it ended its life.

I would stick to a great staple diet of rightly proportioned nutritionally fed fruit fly, and occasionally feed some bean weevils, aphids, and the more important always available collembola and woodlice...

Some thoughts,

Rani


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Why would eating a few wax worms kill a frog?


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

hypostatic said:


> Why would eating a few wax worms kill a frog?


Like I said, this has not been verified, but was the most plausible cause for my toad to die. Maybe it was not easily digested at those quantities ( 6-7 waxies per day for three days) ?

Certainly the toad took them, but maybe its system didn't.
The post here was arguing if one could use the silkies as a main diet/replacement to fruit flies, and this is where I don't think it would the right choice.

Just my own experience...

Rani


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

benjaminfrogs said:


> I believe that silkworms are are suitable alternative to the fruit flies


I think this is what caught my attention...

Rani


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## benjaminfrogs (Sep 26, 2014)

ok,

I separated 10 silks for 7 days now from the rest that hatched. They are still alive. I'm going to test the limits of these guys before they drop. 

the rest have doubled in size while the seperated 10 have not even had their first molt. So I am thinking I can starve them to slow them down in terms of growth. So depending how long I can keep them alive without food or water We can improve the shelf life of our worms(food) and better control the size we want to keep them at. SIZE MATTERS!

The worms that have been eating normally have molted once.

Here is an estimation in size: 

SIZE:

10 unlucky starved ones : 1
the rest (eating normally): 11

I'll let you know when the 10 drop dead to give you an estimation of how long I can starve them for.


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## erik s (Apr 12, 2010)

Look... I don't want to offend, disturb, anger you....BUT...starving a creature, just to see how long it can live is just wrong in my book.....Imo


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

erik s said:


> Look... I don't want to offend, disturb, anger you....BUT...starving a creature, just to see how long it can live is just wrong in my book.....Imo


Also, when it's being used as a feeder item, the nutritional value drops. I don't think that starving to limit growth is the way to go. Some feeder items just grow to large to use in this hobby and silkworms happen to be one of them.

Ben, these will not be a replacement for Drosophila spp. as larvae alone do not work well as feeder items outside the occasional feeding. Larvae are very rich in nutrients and while I do not know the exact numbers in this case, I can guarentee that silkworms are loaded with tons of fat and protein, too much in fact. It's the same reason waxworms cannot replace fuit flies.

Rani, I doubt that waxworms would result in the death of your toads so quickly. Usually feeding too many waxworms results in obesity and eventually liver failure. Waxworms would not cause such problems so quickly though. Maybe there still was a issue caused by the waxworms, outside the usual. Too bad that you didn't get a necropsy done, that might have offered some solid answers. 

John


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## topher (Oct 9, 2013)

Saw this post but never replied.. meant to though!

First of all, on the silkies... I have bred silks in the past for my herd of chameleons and they make excellent food options for reptiles, even can be considered as a staple diet option for chameleons. With that being said, they are not easy to breed.

Years and years of selective breeding for silk color has rendered their immune system completely useless. They need to be kept at a steady, warm temperature in order to maintain them. The higher the temp, though, the faster they grow. The window for feeding these to darts is very small, and the ability to regulate or "gutload" is not high due to their very specific dietary needs, (mulberry based diet). 

I definitely think they are plausible as a variety feeder.. but the work it takes to breed them in controlled numbers and times will likely be too much for most hobbyists. 

Finally, about the fat issue... The window of time that these are small enough to be fed to frogs is very small.. in that time ther fat content is miniscule, but they are extremely nutritious. I would not consider them a dart frog staple, but if you have the time and patience they make a good supplement.


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