# tropical feeder ants !!!!!



## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

I have been feeding my Dendrobates, and my Mantellas these sp. of ants for years now. I don't know the sp. They're very tiny, orange in color. About the size of juvenile springtails. They live in wood. I have experience no negative effects by feeding my frogs these ants over the years. These are wild collected ants from pristine virgin forestry. These ants are easily maintain by feeding them ff.

Warning: ants have very poor nurtrional value. I feed them to my frogs for the alkaloid, and color retention benefits.

(Edited by JP Marchetti so a discussion can take place here)


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

charlesbrooks said:


> I have been feeding my Dendrobates, and my Mantellas these sp. of ants for years now. I don't know the sp. They're very tiny, orange in color. About the size of juvenile springtails. They live in wood. I have experience no negative effects by feeding my frogs these ants over the years. These are wild collected ants from pristine virgin forestry. These ants are easily maintain by feeding them ff.
> 
> Warning: ants have very poor nurtrional value. I feed them to my frogs for the alkaloid, and color retention benefits.
> 
> (Edited by JP Marchetti so a discussion can take place here)




Huhhhhhh! .......why would you want them to retain toxins?????


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

guys- not all alkaloids can be bioconverted to the batrachotoxins, pumiliotoxins etc that cause darts to become toxic. NOR has he offered any reference to increased toxicity


What he IS doing is trying to offer a novel feeder insect that may provide something beneficial to our frogs. 

Very cool, but I highly doubt the GF will allow me an ant colony in the condo....lol


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

If he was offering amazonian oribatid mite cultures for sale, that would be different, but even then, I believe a portion of their toxicity is also due to bioaccumulation of alkaloids from jungle environments


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Most of the ant toxins (e.g., decahydroquinolines, histrionicatoxins, etc) are thought to be less toxic than some of the mite toxins (e.g., pumiliotoxins) and beetle toxins (a putative source of batrachotoxins). Very few dendrobatids are able to upconvert sequestered toxins (pumiliotoxins to allopumiliotoxins for example). Further, toxins are sequestered from diet and likely take a while to bioaccumulate into larger doses.


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

easternversant said:


> Most of the ant toxins (e.g., decahydroquinolines, histrionicatoxins, etc) are thought to be less toxic than some of the mite toxins (e.g., pumiliotoxins) and beetle toxins (a putative source of batrachotoxins). Very few dendrobatids are able to upconvert sequestered toxins (pumiliotoxins to allopumiliotoxins for example). Further, toxins are sequestered from diet and likely take a while to bioaccumulate into larger doses.


Thanks 4 the info


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Thread moved from Classifieds so the discussion can continue.


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## Ebiforest (Jan 25, 2013)

Does the ants make alkaloid on their own? I always thought that ants has the toxin based on dietary. So if they are fed ff, then there won't be any alkaloid?


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## erik s (Apr 12, 2010)

JPccusa said:


> Thread moved from Classifieds so the discussion can continue.


Whoo, whoo...JP is now a moderator!!!...I guess I missed the announcement...congratulations!!!!!!!!!


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

Ebiforest said:


> Does the ants make alkaloid on their own? I always thought that ants has the toxin based on dietary. So if they are fed ff, then there won't be any alkaloid?


True but he stated they are wild collected.so not sure how long they retain the alkaloid.or even the species of Said ant colony or alkaloids contained in the sp


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Ebiforest said:


> Does the ants make alkaloid on their own? I always thought that ants has the toxin based on dietary. So if they are fed ff, then there won't be any alkaloid?


I know at least some of the alkaloids are synthesized by ants, but I don't know about all ant alkaloids off of the top of my head. For example the invasive fire ants (_Solenopsis_) synthesize alkaloids in their venom gland. Those alkaloids are the things that hurt like a *censor* when the entire colony attacks you.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Do you have any pictures of these ants? I'd be interested to see.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

hydrophyte said:


> Do you have any pictures of these ants? I'd be interested to see.


I'll take pictures tomorrow while collecting


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## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

Some people were going over the legality of selling wild-collected species of ants as feeders on this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...ds/93056-tropical-feeder-ants.html#post823021, the mod directed people to this thread for further comments, thought I would chime in based on knowledge from environmental law class and time spent with state-run museums.

-For the purposes of sale, and assuming the species in question is not CITES listed, disease-bearing or covered under a specific federal statute for regulation of dangerous wildlife, the law governing most cases is the Lacey Act, which regulates interstate transportation of "any creatures that, whether or not raised in captivity, normally are found in a wild state...and all types of aquatic and land vegetation upon which such wildlife resources are dependent" that were originally taken in a manner that violates state or local law or that violates specific standards within the Lacey Act. 

-Obviously there are tons of different state laws that it'd be a little silly to go into but the basic question if you're concerned about the legality of what you're doing is whether the specific insects you're shipping might meet the conditions of the Injurious Wildlife clause of being harmful "to human beings, to the interests of agriculture, horticulture, forestry, or to wildlife or the wildlife resources of the United States"--the main concern with something like an ant probably being whether there is danger to native wildlife or agriculture.

-It's possible that it is technically illegal to ship a wild-collected species without a label including a plainly displayed species-specific identification; this is based on regulations issued by the Secretary of the Interior through the FWS that periodically change, however.

-You might also want to check the Plant Pest Act, which refers to much more extensive lists of dangerous insects and which is enforced by the USDA, not the USFWS.

-If you're interested, the full text of the Lacey Act and other federal wildlife statutes are easy to get to on the FWS website and the Plant Pest Act is here: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/brs/pdf/PlantProtAct2000.pdf.


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