# Frostbite For Frogs



## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Today i took a trip to Central Park to look for new Springtails , Isopods and what ever i could find to start new cultures. I wanted to find a larger springtail, something towards the size of a black one and i think i did it . After 3 hours of searching logs, leaves and some other things i finally was able to get me about 13 or so of these huge springtails. There were alot more but these were the largest and by looks they all seem to be the same species............... I also found a pink isopod which was very very small , 1/4 size of the normal ones. Maybe this is another smaller species ? Who knows ? Too bad i wasnt able to catch him or find more of them .... Anyways these are some pics of the isopod i got and a springtail comparison of the normal whites we all have to the new fuzzy large ones i found .... 


*This is the isopod, sort of has a greenish tint to it ..*









*You can see the size difference between both springs. I hope they will culture well for me but only time will tell. *


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I think the large spring is the same as the one I`ve found around here. I think it`s in the genus entomobrya. I have`nt been able to get those guys to culture well. let me know how you do. Any specific trees you found them around? were there a lot of ash trees in the area?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I dont even know since i wasnt looking at the trees but i focused more onthe most leaf compound around.... used a big spoon to clear out the leaves and make a huge clean dirt spot, and jsut keep on make it bigger and bigger... then i just kept my eyes open for the largest jumping springs and thats about it ... I could have picked up alot more but i was not sure they would be the same species since they were much smaller, so i just focused on the larger one ...


PS... Aaron how did you have them culturing ?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Nice find. I would have to say it is an Entomobryidae and possibly orchesella cinta or maybe entomobrya intermedia. They seem to look pretty similar to them, but definitely not the tomocerus longicornis you were looking for! A good link for some nice springtail pics...

http://www.pbase.com/racketman/springtails


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Well that is one too many fancy names for me , i will call them Fuzzy Wuzzy's :wink:


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I Prefer this Link 
http://photo.net/photodb/member-photos? ... _id=880342


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Yeah well, I guess if you like lots of brightly colored descriptive pictures that sites OK... :roll:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Sadly I' e got to report the same lack of success with the larger species... guess I'll just have to wait til the Euro Black Springs make it across the pond.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Sadly two sources tell me that the euro black springs only reproduce twice a year lol ........


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And if you're hoping for the production level of FFs outside of FFs, then you're going to be disappointed by everything. Firebrats also have a generation time around 6 months... but if you set up multiple cultures at different times, you'll get booms at different times. My Shorelinite beetles only boom a couple times a year, but I've got them down to almost monthly booms because of how I set up cultures 

It's all on how much you value the addition time, space, and effort to raise the extra bugs. I honestly don't think we really need too many more springtails successfully in the hobby, once some of the newer species get established... we need to get more TYPES of buggies. I wouldn't mine larger springtails so I could feed them to my frogs (large bug eaters) past the few weeks after they are out of the water, so a few times a year for a nice snack is good enough for me


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

That`s probably why I got such a great production out of the black ones in the spring and nothing for the rest of the year.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

That is basically one of the only reasons why i am trying to culture larger springs, just for a bigger snack. I have plenty of smaller springs for all my froglets. 

I am also looking into newer foods for my frogs but am coming short on what i can find/purchase. Firebrats can eat through paper and infest homes, so that is a no no in my book. I have looked into ants and termites but they also look like a no no at this point. 

I also am looking into beetles but they as well can be very destructive. For now springs/ff's/Isopods and the ocasional cricket and termite will have to do.................... Maybe who knows we will be able to discover a need food source that is easy as spring or ff's soon .... I will keep on hunting for new insects and try at the madness of culturing........


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You're not going to find one that isn't destructive or an agricultural pest...

As for the firebrat comment, I think you're thinking of the wrong relative... the silverfish... which is probably already in your place of residence anyways. Firebrats have such high heat needs that them infesting your home is less likely than FFs... tropical roaches might be problematic in some areas, but these are also the states that generally don't allow them to get shipped in anyways, lol. Firebrats also get pretty large, so you're looking at the larger eaters like bicolor and terribilis for more that tiny babies.

Beetle wise, RFBs aren't too bad, and a few other beetle species are used as feeders as well... shorelinites I'm not worried about infesting, but they have low reproductive time. The "mini mealworms" (species, not the fresh hatched std. species) still have some issues with culturing, and if you're willing to deal with the work, standard mealies are easy, but are like crickets - worthless unless fresh hatched. There are a few other possibilities... but they kinda fall under USDA's idea of a pest they don't want spread...

Aphids are great, but definitely room intensive.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

You might be right about the Silverfish/Firebrat, i might have confused them ... 

I found these also which were living inside the bark of a tree...I know the larger one for sure is not ideal for any Dendro but the smaller/hatcling are like worms and in a deli cup i think they would make another nice snack ..... Any ideas on what this is ?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Can't really tell from the picks, but they look to be larvae, likely of beetles.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I thought the larger ones were the adults and smaller ones the babies..... maybe some kind of worm ? 

Let me see if ican get a better pic, but i think that is preaty good


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ok here are the best pics i could take .....


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

looks like a beetle larvae.
pretty formidable mouthparts too.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Well, let's hash this out a bit. Some seem to think that we need more different types of feeders and not just different types of the same ones... I tend to disagree a little because the nutritional makeup of a different species of the same bug will make them a viable feeder. Granted, it won't be much different, but different enough that you know you aren't just feeding your frogs "different colors". I do agree that new and different types are needed, so we should be trying to explore that. I for one look at pictures all the time and try to come up with ideas for new foods and then research the viability of them and how/if they can be collected and cultured. In the end it comes down to if the frogs will take them or not, but you'll never know til you find em. In a pic of a springtail I ran across a pic of what they called a "bark louse"... not the same as woodlice. Take a look and see if you guys think this would be a viable feeder... looks good to me.

http://www.pbase.com/racketman/image/73614979

What i would like to see (and we can start a new thread if Damian doesn't want us polluting his) is more ideas like this where people say "hey, what about this" and give a picture and some background on it. Not necessarily for stuff we already know about, but new stuff for people to try to find and see if they work. Sorry, I don't have the backround on the bark louse yet :roll: :roll:


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Well with some reserach i have found about Bark Louse and hmmmm the Females Have wings, thats all i have for now lol .... Here is a link to a few pics .... 

http://www.pbase.com/tmurray74/barklice ... psocoptera


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Hmm... I wonder if the one in the pic I linked was either a different species or some stage of a juvenile. I know I have seen at least one thread that mentioned psocoptera, so maybe tonight I'll try to dig that up and see.


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## Howler_Monkey (Mar 5, 2007)

Yeah beetle larva. I'm doing research in Costa Rica right now. I find tons of microfauna in leaf litter. Too bad I can't bring any home. LOTS of gnats and spring tails.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

bring a bag full, noone will tell :lol: .....


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I kinda work the opposite way... finding a bug that is cultured, then seeing if the frogs like it, and then if culturing them is worth my time/space/effort. Bugs being cultured generally means I know I have a supplier (where does one find a bark louse?), it can be cultured in captivity, etc., so a lot of work is done for me  So I'm a little lazy... but if you know an entomologist, there are a good variety of bugs to be had, and many of which can be legally shipped around the country (always in important factor).

I think it is valuable to have a variety of species/strains of feeders within a type to best fit the keepers' needs... and thus the more variety, the more likely a keeper is to find a species/strain of feeder within that type that works for their needs. I for instance, use only hydei and golden delicious/wingless melanogaster. I need the small flies for froglets, don't need the production (and don't care for the hassle of) glider types, but need the size of hydei for my larger frogs... this is a good case of the variety in strains/species proving valuable. 

I like the idea of a variety of springs, size wise at least... 2-3mm springs limits you to a range of small frogs that enjoy them, but what about the larger frogs, or smaller froglets that need a smaller size? Good spot for another spring variety... 

I don't think nutrition should be the factor... different species/strains of the same feeder type is often like saying you can get a varied diet by having different types of pizza... veggie lovers, sausage & pepperoni, extra cheese... doesn't work so well. I'm not saying we shouldn't get more strains/species of many of the feeders we work with, but that I think we are emphasizing it in the wrong way, and spending a lot of time on feeders nearly identical, when we can be working at looking for more TYPES.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Corey you make some very good points and ofcourse different pizzas wont have much nutritional value but noone likes eating the same pizza every single time :wink: . 

I myself am trying to keep different springtail cultures, im sure the frogs do get tired of eating the same animals/size all the time... Also i have not found a springtail that will populate my tanks up to my standards, or any other insect for that matter. Like i said, lets keep looking.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> (where does one find a bark louse.


Not sure, but my first guess would be bark... :lol: 


KeroKero said:


> I don't think nutrition should be the factor... different species/strains of the same feeder type is often like saying you can get a varied diet by having different types of pizza... veggie lovers, sausage & pepperoni, extra cheese... doesn't work so well.


Here I slightly disagree. Using the pizza example, in cheese pizza the is more calcium that in other pizza, meat pizza has more protein, and veggie pizza has more... well, whatever the hell veggies have in em! Point being, the nutritional makeup is similar, but it is different. Is it different enough to make a difference? Not sure but if you look at the nutritional makeup of some bugs that most would consider similar, they are actually very different. For instance, mealworms, waxworms, and superworms. Not exactly like comparing different springs, but most people would say these are fairly similar as far as feeders go, except when looking at calcium content... mealworms 133ppm, superworms 124ppm, waxworms double at 283ppm. Instances like these are all over. In all I agree with you in that it is MORE important to find more different types of feeders, but I also think it is very important to have various different types of a certain feeder if we learn we can use em. It just allows us to vary the diet just a bit, but a bit is better than none at all. And, like Damien said, I kinda get tired of the same pizza all the time!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Sorry Damien if you didn't want the thread turning this way! (I still think the big guys are grubs (aka beetle larvae), if the little guys have similar pinching mouth parts (don't have to be as super scary, just there) I'd be inclined to think the other little guys are too).

My think with pizza is yes there are nutritional differences, but in no way would you doctor say that all the varieties of pizza are a balanced diet :shock: Wingless vs. flightless melanogaster will have differences because of the "nutrients" (biological material) present on the flightless melanos (wings) that isn't present on the wingless. At the same time, I believe the nutritional difference between larvae and adult FFs is greater than the nutritional differences between the fly strains themselves... hydei will be nutritionally different not just because of its makeup, but just the fact that its larger, thus has more nutrients per fly, etc. Even individual flies may have differences in make up, that may influence the nutritional content, but the point isn't do they have different make ups (yes, all will have different if you look hard enough) but are they SIGNIFICANTLY different... in which case I'd say between adult FFs... no... its basically a FF is a FF... Is the difference between larvae and adult FFs significantly different? I believe yes.

Breaking the feeders into groups, nutrition seems to fall into similar contexts as well. Of the three larvae you listed, two are generally related, and one is of a completely different feeder type - apples to oranges there. Mealworms and Superworms fit under the general feeder type of "Beetles & Larvae", while waxworms - pudgy little fat covered frog treats, LOL - are of the "Moths & Larvae" group - different life historys, different nutritional make ups (you can see it just in the calcium you listed), etc etc. The mealies and supers are relatively similar, you could use either one really for similar nutrition, but it would make sense to toss in some waxies since they differ to a good amount right? It's like tossing salad into the constant pizza diet. Sure, varieties of pizza give you a little variety, but adding salad nutirtionally speaking is way better than having 5 different types of pizza... no matter how many veggies you have on a pizza.

You're less likely to get tired of pizza when you don't eat it all the time  :roll: You're saying no one is eating pizza every single time... but by feeding your frogs one feeder type (FFs) it's like you're feeding pizza to your frogs for every meal! Frogs are more forgiving than people in this modern age are... they are wired to eat anything that can fit in their mouth, doesn't taste nasty, and doesn't bite too hard. If all you were ever fed to your parents was pizza, and you couldn't get anything else but what they gave you, you'd eat pizza all the time out of lack of choice... exactly what we are doing to our frogs.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Im sure my frogs dont mind eaint ff's every day.... im sure like you said " they wil eat anything that moves, doesnt taste nasty etc " . I am sure as hell not going to give my frogs ff every single. 

I do not agree with the fact that just because hydeis are bigger there is more nutritional value to them, the body can only intake so much of a nutrient from a single meal, everything else is out the other end . The fact is our frogs are not just ff eaters, or ant eater, or beetle eaters. For all we know they could have 10,000 different food sources in the jungles. We can debate all day about pizza or about what we already know, but not start talking about what we can do. Share what you know.... Do you know any termites you can culture without queen ( or ants for that matter ) . Have u ever cultures bettles ( which ever ) , what is your success rate ? How many times do they breed per year ? How large when it morphs ? etc etc etc

Lets keep the pizza topic out and lets focus on what this whole thing was about .......... finding more food sources for our pets .


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Damien, I agree... I've had enough pizza for today (figuratively and literally!). I have been playing on and off all day trying to find new things on line and have several ideas. I think my next and most logical step is to contact an entomologist and tell them exactly what I am looking for and see if they are able to offer up suggestions. I mean, they work with bugs everyday so they should be able to help narrow down the hundreds of thousands of bugs we could possibly try. With everyones help I think this might be a good idea so I need some basic criteria that a feeder should fit into. So far I have come up with obviously nontoxic, about 2-8mm in size (or so), softer exoskeleton, fairly quick reproductive cycle (for culturing), and finally where to find em. There are a few entomologist around here that might be able to help me and I have seen a lady's name from Colorado St. Univ all over several pics of smaller insects, so I want to try to contact a few people and see what their thoughts would be. They may tell me to hit the bricks, but I figure it's better to try than not. If you guys can think of more good characteristics that should be present that I missed please chime in.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The point of the pizza discussion - on my end - was to encourage the idea to look for new feeders, especially of under represented types. Why it turns into a debate over what is nutritionally important difference wise, I don't understand.

I'm not sure about the toxicity issue... it was recently brought up by a european bug cultureer that milkweed bugs, when raised on a no toxic diet, are perfectly fine food (size and toxicity wise) up until the 4th or so instar, in which the animal then becomes toxic, and then is a full adult toxic beetle that will not be eaten... this is similar to the adult beetle stage of RFBs being distasteful to many frogs, its evidently a beetle thing which is possibly why not many beetles are in culture. I've not had this issue with shorlinites, in which case I actually feed the adult beetle stage to my frogs, as disturbing the substrate to get the larvae, which are relatively inactive anyways, just isn't worth it. The downside with these is that they tend to go in strong booms only a few types a year... very typical for non-tropical species. But the shorelinites I can leave on a shelf, and when they boom I can just feed out shorelintes for almost a week, a nice change of dietary pace for the frogs.

With the termites - this has been brought up a number of times... its just easier to collect a bunch of workers and feed them off. Cultures that have a working queen do not produce enough to support feeding... this may very well be due to them literally being cultured... if they don't have room to expand, what's the likelihood of them to produce like crazy? I heard a similar idea related to isopods... to get the best production out of them, you just remove all the juvies... this gets the adults to keep producing... you just never feed out the adults, as that would seriously harm the breeding level.

With ants, I think the key is first finding species that are palatable to the PDFs... we have some rather different ants up here than they eat down there... I remember being recomended to feed ants that were attracted to peanut butter. The challenge of that is collecting some of these species, determining if they are palatable to the frogs, then finding a queen to start your colony. Not impossible, but challenging enough that I haven't seen it done yet. There are people who raise ant colonies... but from what I've seen they tend to be the larger species that wouldn't do well as feeders. These people (on arachnoboard) may be a good source of info on finding/collecting ant queens and general colony starting and culturing tho.

I think any relatively small species of insect that can be cultured (and isn't restricted by USDA) is worth a go if you've got an entomologist that has some and is willing to toss some your way to try. If they can give you ideas on where to collect and how to care for some native stuff, that's just as good too. I wouldn't worry about the exoskeletons for PDF food in particular, a good part of their diets is made up of walking chunks of chitin LOL. I'm not sure if the softer exoskeleton on the mini isopods is really what makes them more palatable, or if its just the case that all the smaller isos we culture are also softer bodied than their larger relatives... it can be important for some other critters, but I dunno about PDFs.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ugh, not beetles being distasteful (tho thats true of a lot of species) I was having a brain fart on who was related to who... true bugs tend to be rarely cultured due to the toxicity issue.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I Agree with stace as we need to ask for proffesinal advice and stop turning out dirt in our backyards.... If you do a net sweep im sure you will come up with tons of things but jesus what is what and how do we breed it. So yes i think going towards proffesional advice is the best way to go. 

As far as the termites/ants Corey i agree that is has been tried and done etc and like you said " it is much easier to just go hunt outside for them. Ants ofcourse are another issue same as you said also due to the fact that alot of pdf's dont like certain species ....... which is absolutely true. I do know that a few years back when i used to have tricolors they absolutely loved any kind of ant i put in the tank, maybe its because they are such voracious eaters or maybe just because i am a good cook, who knows. What works for one frogs might not work for another . I do know that the same ants i used to give my tricolors i tried with other thumbs and they wont go near them. 

Anyways Stace get to work cause my babies want hamburgers and not pizza .


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Put some stuff in your backyard and see what goes to it(dough, ff medium, sprinkle some yeast, fish food etc.). observe!!! look at whats where in your local environment. put a bunch of oak leaves in a pile, a bunch of sugar maple in another, ash etc and see whats in the piles and eating them. make a powder and try to culture them. You just have to experiment and be perceptive. I`m thinking water bugs(aquatic inverts, benthic and other) to experiment w/ tads. get them out of the water and get them tested for protozoa etc. and see what works. People are not collecting eggs because they don`t know what to do w/ the tads, experiment.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Damien, hopefuly they will be receptive to the idea and help out... if they aren't I guess I have to start looking on a national level :roll: 

Aaron, I think you hit it on the head and this was definitely my plan. I am headed to the store today to get some squash and fruit and other stuff and am going to go out in "the wild" and set things up almost like traps. I want to see what is attracted to what and how well certain things work. I love the idea of going out and collecting bugs, but just because you can collect them doesn't mean you can culture them. Now, if you can set out a food source that you can easily reproduce (rotting veggies, sawdust, dough, FF media balls) and you come back after several days and it's teeming with a praticualr type of insect, then you're on to something. I wonder if it's still too cold here right now to find much, but I'm gonna try it, which brings me to another thought..

On these European or black springs... what temps are people culturing them at?? Damien just collected a bunch of what we are generically calling black springs and the title of the thread says "frostbite for frogs". Leads me to believe it's probably pretty cold there right now and of course it has been pretty cold recently. If these guys are semi prolific at this time of year, I would tend to say that they do better at cooler temps. If yo try to culture them at room temp (60-75 degrees or so), it's going to be much warmer than they are used to and like. Just a thought, but why not break off a small sample of them, say half, and culture them exaclty as you normally would except put them in the fridge or even outside for now? I think if the are prolific right now then that is what we should try to emulate. May explain why people get ood cultures of em in spring and fall but the rest of the year they just tank. Maybe that's just my crazy brain working though, who knows...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

With the snow fleas - a native black springtail that is often seen on snow in early spring, thus the name, the adults are active and about all winter, but not breeding. When the weather cools up is when they supposedly bred, going by the small amount of information I found. They are interesting because its one of the unusual invertebrates that overwinters in its adult form, rather than a juvenile form. The more I'm reading about these guys, the more I'm seeing that they seem to be seasonal breeders, to go along with their environments, with the exception of the tropical species which may produce many generations a year where a northern species would only produce a few. Tossing them in the fridge for a couple weeks, then taking them out may give them the "seasonal change" they need to get breeding, rather than being kept at the same temp all year around, and have their breeding taper off.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I am also finding that any springtail collected outside , like hmm lets say NYC does not doo too well culturing . a Few months back i took some green springtails ( about 7 ) and placed them in a container etc. Now 3 months later or so i finally see babies running around but they all seem to be dying off or not growing at all, maybe like you said we need tropical insects since our rooms are not 30 degrees .................


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I think true bugs are a pretty untapped area. Sure some are toxic but I'm sure others would work quite well for our frogs.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> I am also finding that any springtail collected outside , like hmm lets say NYC does not doo too well culturing . a Few months back i took some green springtails ( about 7 ) and placed them in a container etc. Now 3 months later or so i finally see babies running around but they all seem to be dying off or not growing at all, maybe like you said we need tropical insects since our rooms are not 30 degrees .................


I think the major problem is that we need to find the right food. some of these springtails are probably specialists. I have the same problem w/ the hairy springs. If we induce a cycle by refridgeration(sp) you can mimic the outside temps. mine didn`t breed well and they did great outside 10 ft away with the same general temps. some may only lay a couple eggs and not be the prolific breeders that some of the white springs and other colored common springs are.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I think springs are like any animal in that they have very specific times and environments that they will breed in. Our tropical springs do well at room temp because that is their ideal temp and have their breeding keys set to this temp range, but if you the culture outside in temps that are consistently 50's, I doubt you would get little to no breeding and production would be in the crapper. I think the biggest thing that we should be trying to do with these different springs is either identify locations where they were collected (if we collect our own, it's easy) and emulate the environment (including temp) to get production. Another thing we can do is get out our unknown springs identified (preferably by an expert) and then match them against known data so we can find out what their breeding needs are and imitate them. I doutb that if any of us got a brand new frog we knew nothing about that we would just stick it in a viv and hope for the best. We would post pics or attempt to identify it ourselves, research or ask what the best conditions to keep them would be, and set up our vivs to imitate that. Wht not do that with our food sources? If we hope for any of these cool new food sources to be successful we have to adapt our culturing efforts to them and not expect them to adapt to us. If you give them time and space they will breed, but if you give them the best setup and environment they SHOULD be prolific. If we give them these things and they are not prolific, then maybe we can write them off as too hard to culture or not worth the effort. Just a thought, and something I want to try more myself. Since it's a lot harder for us to acquire new tropical feeders that will culture well at room temps, perhaps it's time to start culturing bugs from our surroundings in an environment that they will be more compatable in.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

All the common springs I`ve collected around here have done just fine at room temps and are quite prolific. The europeon sowbugs I`m culturing do fine at room temps.
The black springs and entomobrya did fine and I noticed the entomobrya eating greens more than going near the yeast piles. The black springs probably stopped breeding once temps were in the mid seventies, they ate and grew pretty well though and my frogs ate them all up. Possibly refridgeration for a couple weeks to get them breeding and a long growing up stage to reach adulthood is needed for them. Differnt bugs will require different "tricks" and some may not be choice specimens for culture. The ground temps around here that I found the springs on during summer were between 70-80f though, same as inside.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

hmm.. definitely interesting conversation. I would love to try some of these ideas to see what works. Hopefully with some connections I'll be able to get some of those nice european black springs soon and can see what happens.


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## CTM75 (Aug 10, 2005)

*Huh...*

Did someone say pizza?





(BUMP)


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Dendrobait said:


> I think true bugs are a pretty untapped area. Sure some are toxic but I'm sure others would work quite well for our frogs.


I agree. I am working now with a nontoxic strain milkweed bugs and they seem to be doing well. They goe through 5 instar stages (nymphal) before becoming adults and frogs will take the first 4 instars before having to retire the adult to breeder stock. The first instar is about the size of a large hydei and all the rest just grow incrementally from there. The last instar is probably only for large phylos or some of the trivs, butthe first two are taken by my leucs with gusto and they seem to love em. Definitely diversity with these as we are not just talking about another springtail, but speaking of that I now have 2 new types of those too


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Would you please elaborate on "nontoxic strain"? Also, how do you grow them? I read on here and elsewhere they are fed raw sunflower seeds in captivity.

What about leafhoopers(Homoptera)? They seem like something many frogs would find in the wild, and it seems all you would need would be a host plant.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Nontoxic strain simply means that they were cultured capitively and weren't collected from the wild, so they don't have the toxic aspect to them. Very much like our darts, the milkweed bugs get their tixicity from what they eat (milkweed plant) and if they are never fed this they will not be toxic. They are fed, as you said, sunflower kernel and/or wheat grass. Culturing is easy... just place them in a small clear bin (I am a big fan of the sterilite fliptop boxes for 99 cents at Wallyworld) with a bunch of cotton balls in the corner (this is where they will lay their eggs), knitting mesh or true cardboard eggcrate for someting to climb on, the sunflowere kernel at the bottom or if you have wheat grass put that in there, and a water wick. The water wick is really easy to make and I just use a film canister with a lid on it and drill a hole in the lid. Place a small section of cotton rope through the hole so about 1 inch comes out the top and it actually goes to the bottom inside the can and then fill the can with water and, replace the lid, and the water wicks up the rope. Place this whole culture is a lighted (but not direct sunlight) area and let em go. You have to change the sunflower about every month or so it seems and it probably isn't a bad idea to clean out the shedded shells of the bugs as well as the few that dies, but otherwise it is pretty maintenance free. 

Leaf hoppers are great and easy enough to get in the summer through field sweeps that there is no need to culture them, but culturing in the winter might be something interesting to try. Not sure what their needs are but I would think maybe a small piece of sod in a clear sterilite bin that gets sunlight might be a good start.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I was under the impression that leaf hoppers had wings , assuming we are talking about the same green animal .... ? If in fact it is i then i dont need anything else flying around my house, but if not than i think its a good idea to try and find out what these guys eat ..........


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Most do, but I don't think they would be much of a annoyance. They feed on the juices of a wide variety of plants...we just need to find a plant they really like and that can be grown quickly in limited space.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ahhhh no thanks for me , its bad enough i have hundreds of those black flies that invade springtail cultures hehe .....


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Fungus gnats... yeah, they suck. The leafhoppers use their wings more for gliding than flying I believe. I know they suck the juices out of grass, so I was wondering if a small piece of homegrown grass would work. I know at smoothie places that have little 6x6 or so things of wheat grass tjat just grow in a tray... that might work.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Maybe. I'm guessing what you'd do would be to find a kind of grass to grow(bermuda maybe?) Then do a sweeping from a lawn of this stuff(of course, the no pesticides rule applies here). Chances are most of the hoppers you get would be able to grow on this grass.

Their are a lot of treehoppers that feed on shrubby type plants that might be good to look into. Heck, they might even culture in the viv like scale by feeding on a plant put in there for them.


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