# frog spasms



## darkspot716

on rare occasion when i mist my tanks one of my el dorados has spasms and seizures. he straightens out and 'tightens up" but then becomes active again after a couple minutes. 
this doesnt happen with any other frog just the one. ive got him isolated in a 10 vertright now and he eats melanogastors with flukers cal/phos and the tank is seeded with both pink and white springs.
the water ii use is not Ro its tap water that i let sit for 24 hours at least. ive always done this with my water and ive never had to put any additives into it, and ive never had an issue like this before.


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## Julio

usually when this happens with Oophaga they dont' usually make it. 

I had this happen with tincts and they come back, 

just tuesday morning i had a patricia seize and looked as if it was not gonna make it, then when i got home that eve it was belly up and lifeless, i was gonna flush it, but something told me not to, so i left it on my kitchen table over night, this was at 11pm at night, i woke up at 6 am the next morning to find the frog trying to climb out of the fly container i had put it in, i was really relieved and super happy, i had this happen with an F1 true sip as well.


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## WendySHall

Julio...do you know what causes this? I've never experienced it (fingers crossed!) and always thought it was due to poor supplementation. But, if you've experienced it, I imagine that's not always the case.


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## Julio

I have only had this happen with wild caught frogs. 
Jeremy Huff and I were talking about it and he thinks is more of a defense mechanism with Tincts as the ones i have had this happen to come back to life as if nothing happens, but there were a few Pumilios when my collection was bigger that i had, that were wild caught that would seize and die for no apparent reason.


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## Reef_Haven

darkspot716 said:


> o he eats melanogastors with flukers cal/phos and the tank is seeded with both pink and white springs.


Do you supplement with anything else? and how old is your supplement?

Flukers cal/phos alone is not appropriate. We don't want to add any additional phosphorus because the insects we feed are already disproportionately high in phosphorus.
Most people use Repashy Calcium Plus because it is an all in one with the proper ratio of vitamins A/D/E and the correct ratio of Calcium to D3.

Allen's explanation for how he determines the proper ratios in his supplements.
http://www.store.repashy.com/calcium-and-d-3.html

and see this

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/88185-frog-gonig-into-shock-some-sort.html#post779060


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## WendySHall

hmmm...like fainting goats....


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## WendySHall

But...if it was simply a defense mechanism developed by the frogs for protection, they wouldn't die from it would they?


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## Julio

well, only the Oophaga have died from seizing but not the tincts in my experience


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## frogparty

Sounds like a potential Ca2+ or K+ issue to me. Muscle and nerve function are regulated by both calcium and potassium channels , and inbalance in these can cause serious issues. 

Its interesting that it happens just after you mist, when the nerves would be firing more rapidly due to stress response. 


I would try switching to Repashy Calcium + and making sure the supplemets are fresh. Its quite possible its a genetic issue and not one of your husbandry, although I would still urge you to both switch your supplemets, and make sure your water does not contain chloramines. 

If its genetic, theres not much you can do, but you should explore your potentail solutions thoroughly before you give up on the little guy


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## JeremyHuff

To add to what Julio said, I was at Richards (woodsman) not long ago. We were catching some young tincs and one seized. He laid the lifeless body ontop of an aquarium. We continued collecting frogs and a half hour later the supposed dead one was up and hopping around. 
Julio's Patricia was a recent import so supplementation probably wouldn't have been an issue.


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## Julio

frogparty said:


> Sounds like a potential Ca2+ or K+ issue to me. Muscle and nerve function are regulated by both calcium and potassium channels , and inbalance in these can cause serious issues.


This is true, however, i have had this happen with fresh imports and an F1 tinct, which i can tell you was not Undersuplemented. 

however i don't think that wild caught frogs have a calcium deficientcy when they are recently imported, so this is a little puzzling


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## frogparty

stress from importation could EASILY cause electrolyte deficiencies, as could being dehydrated. Too much can cause just as many problems as not enough. Dealing with capture, holding prior to shipment, actual shipment, temperature swings, stress overload on a tiny body etc could all easily wreak havoc with the osmotic and ion balance. 

As for the F1, not sure honestly. Weirder things have happened for sure. It could be genetic, or a function of it dealing with a bacterial, fungal etc infection. Or it could be genetic


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## Julio

well i can assure you that it was not dehydration as from experience that is one of the first things i do when getting wild caught animals is place them in a small cup of water to make sure they are well hydrated before being placed in quarantine


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## frogparty

I'd never question your husbandry Julio, I'm just proposing a potential hypothesis to explain the situation.


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## Julio

Sorry if it came across that, but i know you are proposing a hypothesis, but i am still perplezed by it as i hydrated the frog and this happened a few days after it was under my care, and was witnessed feeding


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## madran2

In the past when i have gotten frogs and that started seizing i would put a petri dish of filtered water with a 1/4 teaspoon of calcium supplement mixed in to it and soaked the frog in it. I have brought them back this way to healthy frogs. Hope this helps.


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## Julio

this was a fairly common thing with us that have been in the hobby a while, i remember doing calcium gluconate baths but most if not all that would seized still perish


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## Ed

Julio said:


> This is true, however, i have had this happen with fresh imports and an F1 tinct, which i can tell you was not Undersuplemented.
> 
> however i don't think that wild caught frogs have a calcium deficientcy when they are recently imported, so this is a little puzzling


They could still have a calcium deficiency... You don't know how long they were held by the collectors before being passed along the chain of sales to import. 
In addition there are a number of other potential causes that occur to me right off the bat... for example, chytrid disrupts electrolyte balance... Insufficient D3 or even B6... People often forget that soaking an animal in a calcium glubionate solution, doesn't mean that the calcium is going to be bioavailable if there isn't enough D3 in the system. 

In the case of the OP, I would first strongly suspect insufficient calcium and work down the list.. and I would keep them above 75 F until testing for chytrid was completed. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Julio

yes, but how fast does the frog become calcium depleted then?


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## IndigoGal

Julio said:


> I have only had this happen with wild caught frogs.
> Jeremy Huff and I were talking about it and he thinks is more of a defense mechanism with Tincts as the ones i have had this happen to come back to life as if nothing happens, but there were a few Pumilios when my collection was bigger that i had, that were wild caught that would seize and die for no apparent reason.


Hey guys…just wanted to pop in and say that I’ve had this happen a few times to multiple tree frogs and it’s definitely not a defense mechanism 100% NOT AT ALL okay but it is like we have major anxiety attacks where sometimes human beings hafta get shots to bring them out of the attack well these frogs have these when they get caught off guard like if they’re asleep and u suddenly grab one of them and it didn’t have any idea u were coming toward it ya know what I’m sayin’? This happens to my big girl I call “Granny” it’s happened to her twice now which I’m not gonna lie scared the daylights outta me but after a few minutes she got herself back to normal and now last night this happened to one of my lil baby fellas that’s only a lil over a year old and I thought wtf man but she’s fine now and I have another big girl and this just happened to her about five minutes ago and this one is healthy as can be and not nervous or anything unless she doesn’t see me coming and I was thinking about it and the only thing that I’ve done every time one of them does this is pick them up before gently and calmly waking them up first so that’s why I think it’s kinda like anxiety attacks or something because that’s the only time any of them have ever done this. I’m no expert by any means, this is just the conclusion I’ve came to in my lil brain here so if anyone knows where I could find some more info I’d greatly appreciate it. Thanks so much! Namaste


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## Kmc

Stressor events can trigger underlying problems to present in slight muscle fasciculation to tremors, to very troubling looking spasms.


It really sounds like you're stressing and handling your frogs in a way that is unfair to their welfare.

Please reconsider how frequently you put your hands on your frogs. 

Rats make great pets for people who want a small buddy to hold and carry around.

The Rat has become a frog and lizard saving hero on so many occasions I consider them my little Saints.


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## IndigoGal

_KMC> what message are u replying to? Thanks _


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## IndigoGal

WendySHall said:


> But...if it was simply a defense mechanism developed by the frogs for protection, they wouldn't die from it would they?


It's definitely NOT a defense mechanism I promise u that!


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