# 12x12x18 any good? If so for what?



## Daniel_Effler (Feb 11, 2021)

This is my first post and I am just beginning research.
I have been considering getting one or two of this size Exo Terra terrarium. I understand that mixing dart frogs is very frowned upon and I would like if possible at least two examples. 
What I am wondering is if there is any beginner friendly species of dart frogs that would thrive in this kind of enclosure as a single specimen or small group, maybe up to trio but I doubt that's possible. 

Forgive me if I do not know the names of any of these species yet. A few that I have seen that I really like are the banded yellow and black or green and black ones, the solid gold yellow ones, and the blue spotted ones. (Please don't hate on me for not knowing these yet) 
Can dark frogs thrive individually?

Could I go even smaller with the terrarium? 12x12x12 maybe? Is there a minimum recommendation? 

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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

12x12x18 would likely be the bare minimum, but I would suggest aiming for a 18x18x24 Exo Terra instead. It will be more stable, easier to manage and won't restrict the inhabitants you can keep. I will suggest you do some more research on the frogs you are interested in, or more research to determine the ones you may be interested in.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

I think the frogs you are referring to are dendrobates leucomelas, dendrobates auratus celeste, phyllobates terriblis, and dendrobates auratus blue. Or at least they have the colors you mention. 

From the list above, the leucomela is considered one of the better beginners frogs. The auratus also, but they tend to be a bit more shy. 

Regarding size, the common consensus is that bigger is better. Ideally you want an 18x18x18 for a pair of the afore mentioned frogs. I have a single dendrobates auratus in an 18x15x24 and whilst it’s ok, I would rather have a bit more space. 12x12x12 is certainly too small as frogs do like to climb a bit, and I think 12x12x18 is also a bit too small. You might be able to get a pair of the smaller Ranitomeya in a 12x12, but again, it’s not real advised and they are not the best beginner frog. Dart frogs don’t really get lonely, but putting the footprint of the two tanks together and making a 24x12x18 would be a nice starting point for a pair of leucomelas (although making it 18 deep as well would be even better)


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I highly recommend that you put the enclosure question on the back burner for a while. Read about frog species, people's experiences with them, and see what animal you might like to keep. The cost of the viv is negligible in the grand scheme of things, both in terms of the initial housing and over the ~15 year lifespan of the frogs. Also, by not offering the optimal housing conditions (both in terms of size and other considerations) the risk of dead frogs is considerably higher. In an optimal viv, darts are fairly simple to keep; in a marginal viv, they are very difficult.

If the viv size issue is a dealbreaker, there are no 'beginner' darts that should be kept in any viv smaller than 18 x 18 x 18.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Also a warning: if you don’t research plants, they can overgrow and take up the entire viv. Especially in that sized tank. Pruning helps but plants like lemon button ferns and creeping fig will take up the whole thing and make it a mess. It’s happened to me.


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## Daniel_Effler (Feb 11, 2021)

Thank you everyone for the replies. I definitely have a lot more research to do before I pull the trigger on anything. 

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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I don't kee in my


FroggerFrog said:


> Also a warning: if you don’t research plants, they can overgrow and take up the entire viv. Especially in that sized tank. Pruning helps but plants like lemon button ferns and creeping fig will take up the whole thing and make it a mess. It’s happened to me.


^^ this! Creeping fig will takeover that tank in a few months.


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

I think 18x18x18 is the minimum you should consider. That's what I have and it works, but I wish I had bought a larger one. It's small, especially when some of your plants start growing in.


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## Daniel_Effler (Feb 11, 2021)

I have a 36x18x36 I have created geckos in now. I could get a 18x18x36 to match and set right beside the geckos. 

Lots to think about. I've made up my mind to to buy anything until April so I have plenty of time to decide on what I really want to do and learn. 

I am reading around on the forum now. 

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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

On this note, and I’ve been feeling increasingly bad about this, I do have a 12x12x18 set up for thumbnails. I guess I had made a mistake in trusting too much the info on Josh’s Frogs. Pretty much every thumbnail page, they say this size is “suitable” for 1-3 thumbnails and it’s what they sell in their thumbnail kit. I have my viv set up and have learned a lot more since then, but I keep feeling more and more remorseful that I got the wrong size...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

@Lovelyk , that was pretty much the standard minimum recommendation, and still is from many people, including me until fairly recently. I kept a few pairs of thumbs in 12 x 12 x 18s for a couple years without "real" problems -- that is, they didn't up and die. A had a trio that was a different story, though. Also, I have a temp and humidity controlled reptile room, which makes little vivs somewhat easier to manage.

Anyway, I upgraded some of my thumbs to InSitus recently (about the size of an 18 x 18 x 24) and I see a lot of difference -- frogs are much less likely to bolt into cover when they see me, and they are much more exploratory when they are out. Having frogs display more varied behavior enables me to 'read' them better, to know when they're comfortable and when they're not. I also expect not to have to pull froglets out so early, which I felt compelled to do with the smaller vivs. And now I can use the smaller vivs as growouts. 

"Suitable" means different things to different people. (Also note that "beginner" darts doesn't typically include thumbs, as many people use that term.) I'm lately finding little reason to recommend anything other than "ideal" or even "gold standard", if only because optimizing equipment makes the inevitable human error less dangerous.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> @Lovelyk , that was pretty much the standard minimum recommendation, and still is from many people, including me until fairly recently. I kept a few pairs of thumbs in 12 x 12 x 18s for a couple years without "real" problems -- that is, they didn't up and die. A had a trio that was a different story, though. Also, I have a temp and humidity controlled reptile room, which makes little vivs somewhat easier to manage.
> 
> Anyway, I upgraded some of my thumbs to InSitus recently (about the size of an 18 x 18 x 24) and I see a lot of difference -- frogs are much less likely to bolt into cover when they see me, and they are much more exploratory when they are out. Having frogs display more varied behavior enables me to 'read' them better, to know when they're comfortable and when they're not. I also expect not to have to pull froglets out so early, which I felt compelled to do with the smaller vivs. And now I can use the smaller vivs as growouts.
> 
> "Suitable" means different things to different people. (Also note that "beginner" darts doesn't typically include thumbs, as many people use that term.) I'm lately finding little reason to recommend anything other than "ideal" or even "gold standard", if only because optimizing equipment makes the inevitable human error less dangerous.


Yes, I understand. I was looking at Ranitomeya, knowing they were more intermediate at best, but I guess I was modeling after too outdated builds. Luckily, I’m at least in a very moderate temp place, where I wouldn’t have to worry about the outside environment and I’ve had stable control of the humidity and temperature so far.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

I have one remaining 12x12x18 vivarium, and one empty one that I likely will never use. I agree with the sentiments of @Socratic Monologue. 

I just find them too hard to control...they go dry fast, or go wet fast. I continually have to pull it off the automatic misting system. I have a bit of experience, so I can manage that, but for someone new... I would really really really suggest using an 18x18x24 or equivalent as a starter.


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