# Summer shipping



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

There's a number of posts over the winter months about shipping but I haven't seen much about shipping during the summer months. 

Anybody do any testing to see just how hot things get in the shipping box?

What do you do differently when shipping during the summer?

Do the gel packs that help keep things warm during the winter also help keep things cool during the summer?


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

When I have shipped during warmer months, I use the same insulated box within another insulated box plus several of the frozen cold packs placed outside the inner box. Having said that I'm a lot more comfortable shipping in the 20s than I am when temps hit the 90s.

Bill


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I agree with Bill 100% about shipping in the cold vs. in the heat.
I recently did some tests in my car parked in the sun...it wasn't hot out, but inside the car, if I remember right, it hit 100, if not, it was very close.
The test was done using a single, 1.5 inch thick homemade styro cooler and phase 22 gel.
Results were pretty good, I'll try to get around to posting the results later.
I'd also like to do a shippment test like I did this winter, to see how hot things can get while planes sit on the tarmac etc.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Ok, got the tests uploaded...

The pack is similar to the one towards the end of this thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 2&start=15
With the exception that I used 2 of the packs instead of 4, (around 3 lbs of the pcm), and the phase change material was cooled to approx 60F before packing.
Ambient conditions, car parked in the sun, upper 70's outside the car:
The readings are inside the car, next to the test pack...








Conditions inside the box:


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Good info Brian. Thanks.

Those Saf-T-Paks from the other thread look very interesting. I gotta check their web site a little more to try and get some pricing.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Just a note that they are saying it is going to be a very hot summer... Its already 90 here and thats way hot for this time of year.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Saf-T-Pak was $105 for a box of 16 of their 2lb gel packs. They are reusable so if you could get buyers to send them back to you it might be worth it.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Did another hot car test yesterday...
Outside conditions partly cloudy, high temp was 87F.
Package was prepared with two bags of phase change, approximatly 3 lbs total. The box was an 11x9x9" (OD) with a 1.5" foam cooler (homemade 8) ), in a white cardbord outer.

The PCM's were left in the freezer overnight, then taken out around an hour before packing the box, to allow them to warm up a little...usually when packing frogs I will use my temp gun to measure the PCMs, and will wait till they get up to 60F...but yesterday I couldn't find my temp gun (explains the cool start on the in-box temps), and was in a hurry, so I just packed it up...and went on with my day.

Box was then placed in my dark blue 02'wrx, parked in the hot sun. The logger measuring ambient conditions was placed about a foot away from the box.

Ambient conditions:








In box conditions:









When I opened the box this afternoon, the PCM's had just started to melt, which indicates that they proabably could have held temps within acceptable paramaters for at least another day.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

130 degrees in your car! That's hot. You need a webpage with a synthesis of all your tests.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Uh-huh...

I think it's starting to get warm enough to do some logger shipping tests as well, to see what temps the packages actually see in summer shippments.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Good info Brian.

I was fortunate to get my hands on some of the Saf-T-Paks and I've been doing a lot of my own testing as well. My shipping box is very similar to yours just a little bigger - 14" x 13" x 12".

I started off just using one 2lb Saf-T-Pak and didn't get very good results. The last test I ran yesterday I used two Saf-T-Paks, one in the bottom and one taped to the top. The weather was sunny and hot, mid to high 80's. I didn't get as drastic as you and place the box in a car directly in the sun. I placed it in my garage which probably got to be 95F. I checked the logger when I went home for lunch today and the temp in the box stayed pretty much a constant 75F. I was IMPRESSED. Seems like for my size box two of those Saf-T-Paks is the key.










I've decided that's how I'm going to ship my frogs. The Saf-T-Paks are $8 a piece so I figured I would charge a $16 refundable box fee to get people to send them back to me. My first test with doing that will be tomorrow so we'll see how that goes.

I also want to run two more tests. One similar to the one I just ran but for two days rather than just one. And then a more drastic test with the box outside in the direct sunlight all day. Waiting for the next bright, sunny, hot day to run that one.


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## Tripod (Jun 5, 2006)

If I had a data logger, I would run some tests as well. I figure it doesn't get much worse than Houston with 95-100 degree heat and 80%+ humidity. A car parked here in the sun for a couple of days would truly represent the worst end of the spectrum regarding the possible temperature extremes the packages could encounter.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Brian if you have any interest in helping with a shipping care sheet please let me know or sign up for the care sheet creation group. Your data is invaluable!

Ever think about trying say out on a parking lot or driveway to simulate a tarmac? It is my understanding that can be worst time when shipping station to station, which I highly recommend.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> Brian if you have any interest in helping with a shipping care sheet please let me know or sign up for the care sheet creation group. Your data is invaluable!
> 
> Ever think about trying say out on a parking lot or driveway to simulate a tarmac? It is my understanding that can be worst time when shipping station to station, which I highly recommend.


Sure, I'm game...

That last test was in a parking lot...not a walmart sized parking lot, but on asphalt neverless.
Gary, just an FYI, a 14x13x12" box will cost a small fortune to ship by anyone other than USPS.
Just thought I'd point that out before you get it just how you want it.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I added you to the group you can see the creation section now...


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Dancing frogs said:


> Gary, just an FYI, a 14x13x12" box will cost a small fortune to ship by anyone other than USPS.
> Just thought I'd point that out before you get it just how you want it.


Actually, I can ship by Fed Ex Overnight for about $35. But I do see where the size of the box for Fed Ex does make a difference. Any idea what the "ideal" size is before the rates really jump?


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> Gary, just an FYI, a 14x13x12" box will cost a small fortune to ship by anyone other than USPS.


USPS does not use dimensional weight for express (unless the package is Length + Girth > 84), but the new dimensional weight for priority mail is a killer. I use USPS quite regularly for frog shipments (recievers choose who they would like to use when they checkout). They are cheaper and you can do a "hold at the post office" and nearly everyone lives closer to their post office than they do to the other 3s offices (I have to drive nearly an hour one way to pickup frogs held at fedex, dhl, or UPS).

UPS, Fedex, and DHL use this formula to determine cost: (L X W X H)/194 (rounded up to the next whole pound).

So, a 12" cube ships at 9 LBS for the big 3 and (for me) ships at 3 LBS for USPS Express.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

The box size in the second test (11x9x9) usually ships from here to either coast for $60 ish., using fedex priority service. It is considered a 4 lb package, or somewhere around that, so I add enough pcm to the box to get to that weight...afterall, you pay the same either way.

Costs go up fairly progressive, in other words, it's not like you hit x number and it gets outragoeus.

An example:
Fo bigger orders, sometimes I will use a 11x9x12...that ships to either coast from here for about $69
Of course, if you ship a gazillion packages, you will likely have a deeper discount working for you...
Just spend some time on Fedex's website, they have a cost calculater, where you enter dims and weights, and you get an estimated cost.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Dancing frogs said:


> Just spend some time on Fedex's website, they have a cost calculater, where you enter dims and weights, and you get an estimated cost.


YEP, I've been doing that  

The boxes I use now I get free from where I work. They're a nice medium size but probably on the big size for shipping just a few frogs. I think I'm going to try and make up my own 1 1/2" foam insulated box that will fit two of the Saf-T-Paks and have enough room for just a few frogs to try and save the buyer some $$$ on shipping.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

How does adding 4 lbs. of gel packs to the overnight package affect the shipping cost?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Alan

I can only speak of my experience with Fedex, but usually I am being charged a much higher "weight" than the actual box weight b/c of their size correction...this usually allows me 3-4# to 'play with' before you affect the box charge...I dont usually notice any additional fees when I use gel packs or not. I generally use them all the time now.

Best is to keep the box size to the minimum necessary to get the job done, and add the gel packs to protect the precious cargo. 

S


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Alan Zimmerman said:


> How does adding 4 lbs. of gel packs to the overnight package affect the shipping cost?


Shawn is right. You have up to a certain weight to use based on the size of the box. Whether I ship my box empty or with 4 lbs worth of gel packs I pay the same price. Which is kind of nice because you can add additional gel packs to protect the frogs better and it doesn't cost any more.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

If anyone has a well-priced source for gel packs - please PM me.

Thanks,
Alan


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Alan Zimmerman said:


> If anyone has a well-priced source for gel packs - please PM me.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alan


The Phase Change Material gel paks are at http://www.saftpak.com/ They aren't cheap but they are reusable and it's the only place I've seen them for sale.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I've been messing around with the Fed Ex rate calculator and it seems like the "magical" size box is 11" x 11" x 11". Smaller than that and the rates don't go down, larger than that and the rates start going up. But, in the package I just shipped to Black Jungle it was only $9 more to ship my bigger size box. Seeing as how I could put more gel paks in my size box to better protect the frogs I didn't think it was that big a deal.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Strange...I have entirely different results.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Dancing frogs said:


> Strange...I have entirely different results.


Could the size of the box matter depending on where you're shipping???

I just shipped a box to Black Jungle, NY to MA, so those were the zip codes I used.

What results are you getting?


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> I've been messing around with the Fed Ex rate calculator and it seems like the "magical" size box is 11" x 11" x 11". Smaller than that and the rates don't go down, larger than that and the rates start going up.


That sounds correct...if you're keeping the weight the same. It's all about dimensional weight. The 11"x11"x11" = 1331 cubic inches. The dimensional weight for this sized box is 1331/194 or 6.86lbs. Assuming for the moment the box weighs 1 lb, you can put up to 5.86lbs in that size box before the price goes up. 

Another way to look at it is... if you have 5.86lbs to ship, it will cost the same to ship it in any sized 1 lb box that has an outside volume less than 6.86*194 or 1331 cubic inches. Increase the volume over the 1331, with the same weight, and the price goes up.

The dimensional weight is the line in the sand. Think of it like a (weight,volume) pair. From the example above (6.86,1331). Increase either one or both and the price goes up. Decrease only one and the price stays the same. Decrease both and the price goes down.

The shippers have set the bar such that they expect 1 lb per 194 cubic inches of cargo space. You pay more if either the weight or the volume goes above that. 

I think I've hammered on this one enough,

EricG.NH


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

gary1218 said:


> Dancing frogs said:
> 
> 
> > Strange...I have entirely different results.
> ...


Ahh...I was wondering why you were getting off so easy with cheap rates :wink: I get similar rates when I ship to nearby states as well.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Some results of the calculator:
54872-21042
Dimensional weights in parenthesis, list rates.
Box 11x9x9, (4.5 lbs) priority service: $50.96
Box 11x10x9 (5.1 lbs)priority service $54.93
Box 11x11x11 (6.86 lbs) priority service$58.74
Box 14x13x12 (11.26lbs) Priority service$69.00


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Fedex does the zone thing like everyone else. It costs more to ship the same thing further. You can get the zone rates from the Fedex website. Their calculator basically just accesses those tables with the zone info and 
the higher of either the true or dimensional weight. 

Couple more things to add...

When using Fedex Hold at location:
1. Get an account number and save a couple bucks
2. Make sure the "Delivery to a Residence" option is not selected or they
add a couple bucks.
3. I've successfully used their Standard overnight service instead of the 
First and Priority. Their website says it'll be available for pickup by noon. 
For me it's always been available by 9a or 10a. Basically it's the same 
service as First and Priority, but a couple bucks cheaper.

Those things add up. 

Lastly, always use a "true" Fedex Staffed location and not a Fedex Authorized Shipcenter. The latter will rip you off.

EricG.NH


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

_Minor tangent somewhat related to topic..._

Google Checkout is running a deal where they are partnering with Fedex so Google Checkout members get a nice discount with Fedex. You can check it out here: https://checkout.google.com/seller/part ... l?hl=en_US

I've heard that Fedex only allows live shipments (after you have done the paperwork and test box shipment to them) from businesses to businesses (Rich from insular posted that on here a few weeks ago...). Any truth to it?


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

From Fedex terms and conditions...

Live Animals and Ornamental Marine Life (Including Live Fish)

FedEx Express does not accept live-animal shipments as part of its regular-scheduled service and does not transport household pets such as dogs, cats, birds and hamsters. FedEx Express may accept certain shipments of live animals such as horses, livestock and zoo animals (to and from zoo locations only) on an exception basis if approved and coordinated by the FedEx Live Animal Desk (call 1.800.405.9052).

If approved by FedEx, we may accept non-venomous reptiles, amphibians, live/tropical fish and beneficial insects on an exception basis under the following conditions:


Shipments must be from a business to a business (from a breeder to a pet store, for example). 
The shipper must have its packaging tested and pre-approved by FedEx Packaging Design and Development for the type of animal being shipped. Call 1.800.633.7019 for assistance. It is the responsibility of the shipper to adequately package shipments for all temperature extremes and handling conditions. 

Contact your FedEx account executive for details and additional requirements.

We might be able to use a "breeder" to "breeder" arguement. Probably depends on which exec you get.

EricG.NH


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