# How well do epiphytes roots grab on to silicone and coco fibre



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi

Just wondering if you use the pinning method how well the roots will grab on to GS, silicone, coco fibre. Do you have to have crevices of small pieces of would also? wondering if Epiweb is needed in spots.

Glenn & Laura


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi Glen & Laura,

I haven't ever tried the GS/silicone/coco fibre background - so maybe this isn't an answer you're looking for. I would highly recommend EpiWeb. The creeping fig, philodendron and pothos I have in my azureus tank have all rooted into the EpiWeb with no problems. In my Galact tank, the peperomia prostrata (which has very fine roots) is also taking off with the EpiWeb as a base.

Just my 2 cents...

Cheers,


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi

The only thing I don't care for with the Epiweb is that you don't get the different depths like the GS/silicone. I'm just wondering how well the roots will grab on. The coco fibre can't be more than a 1/16" thick.

glenn & laura


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

That was the trade off for me. I haven't seen too many GS backgrounds where the plants really took hold and covered the background. Like you said, I don't think 1/16" is deep enough for most roots to dig into. I prefer to have the whole background covered in plants rather then the depth you can get with sculpting GS. 

That said, you can carve planting holes into the GS and use some trailing plants to give the impression that they are covering the background.

Cheers,


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi

We're not keeping PDF's yet.:These frogs don't need the humidity like PDF's. That said would the Epiweb not dry out? Being a form of plastic it wouldn't retain moisture like natural tree fern fibre would it?

Glenn & Laura


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

In my gs background i have java moss growing, and creeping fig covering it. In addition i pushed the stolons of bromelaids into the foam and the roots are now fused to the background. For GS the thin textured layer allows plants to stick to it, not really grow in it like epiweb.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

d-prime said:


> In my gs background i have java moss growing, and creeping fig covering it. In addition i pushed the stolons of bromelaids into the foam and the roots are now fused to the background. For GS the thin textured layer allows plants to stick to it, not really grow in it like epiweb.


Hi

Thanks for the response. I've seen the stolons put into the background before yet I've read some threads saying the GS is toxic if it's exposed to water. IMO GS could not be toxic to plants or when exposed to water because from what I've read it's completely inert when dry.No???

Glenn & Laura


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

frogfreak said:


> IMO GS could not be toxic to plants or when exposed to water because from what I've read it's completely inert when dry.


I think that's the key - when dry. If the center hadn't cured and you pushed a brom into it, it allows more moisture in, which could result in leaching chemicals. 

There's another reason I'm using EpiWeb - while it's not natural (recycled plastic) it's also not a rapidly expanding chemical foam with who knows what in it. I prefer to use as few chemicals as possible in my tanks. All I've got is some silicone to attach the EpiWeb to the glass.

Cheers,


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi

I wrote about GS before but nobody wanted to discuss it really. If the GS is put on to thick it will never cure properly. You can only put it on 1"-2" at a time and it needs to be misted as well to get a complete cure. It's a slow process and you need a lot of patience If you do it slowly it should be perfectly safe

Glenn and Laura

Ps If you get a big sticky spot in the middle ( which I have done) I would start over. I wouln't risk it!


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

If the foam cures 100% it is completely inert and is water resistant. I am using epiweb in a new viv and also like the idea of less chemicals and have more secure feeling. Epiweb is also a plastic based product and has chemicals in it, we just dont deal with them as we do with greatstuff, making us think of epiweb as more natural than it is.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

d-prime said:


> If the foam cures 100% it is completely inert and is water resistant. I am using epiweb in a new viv and also like the idea of less chemicals and have more secure feeling. Epiweb is also a plastic based product and has chemicals in it, we just dont deal with them as we do with greatstuff, making us think of epiweb as more natural than it is.


Hi

I'm not saying if GS or Epiweb is the better material. I have 3 vivs all done with GS. I have seen many nice vivs with Epiweb. I am saying that if you do use the GS method take care when doing so. If you go to the great stuff site everyone using GS should read the MSDS sheet. All plastics contain chemicals. Some plastics leach chemicals and some don't. Most of the time we don't find out for years and then we have problems. A perfect ex. would be the baby bottles being pulled off the shelves this past winter.

Glenn & Laura


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi Glenn & Laura,

You guys had asked in a PM to post some pics of my tanks with EpiWeb, so I'll throw em up here.

Azureus Tank:









Galact Tank:









Cheers,


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Many plants which climb have roots that are adapted to clinging to slick surfaces. Ficus pumila readily covers glass and actually sticks to it. So just because the coir is only 1/16 inch thick does not mean a plant can't utilize it especially epiphytes and climbing plants with holdfast roots. I can't speak to the curing aspects of GS since I don't keep animals.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Nice looking vivs Mike

Glenn & Laura


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

harrywitmore said:


> Many plants which climb have roots that are adapted to clinging to slick surfaces. Ficus pumila readily covers glass and actually sticks to it. So just because the coir is only 1/16 inch thick does not mean a plant can't utilize it especially epiphytes and climbing plants with holdfast roots. I can't speak to the curing aspects of GS since I don't keep animals.


Hi

Thanks harry. How could a plants roots stick to glass. We really don't know much about epipytes. Can you explain this

Glenn & Laura


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Glass is not without surface irregularities. Otherwise Anoles and Geckos could not stick to it either. This all happens at the microscopic level. I have never read exactly what the mechanism is for plants but the mechanism for these lizards is totally different from that of tree frogs and basically operates at the molecular level.

All I know is I have to clean the Ficus from the glass on my sunroom every fall.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi harry

Interesting. Hmmmm?

glenn & laura


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## donstr (Jun 21, 2007)

While not exactly as "smooth" as glass I've had a philodendron climb up the high gloss paint of my bathroom wall with its aerial roots. It went from the floor to around the 6 foot mark before my children tore it down one day. Ahhhh, children.


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

I just spoke to The V.P. of research and development for handi-foam, and it is 100% inert when dry, and doesnt leach any chemicals unless you BURN it, where you will get sick and die from hydrogen cyanide toxicity.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

d-prime said:


> I just spoke to The V.P. of research and development for handi-foam, and it is 100% inert when dry, and doesnt leach any chemicals unless you BURN it, where you will get sick and die from hydrogen cyanide toxicity.


Hi

I agree with you. I've read the Material safety data sheet. This material is not toxic, even when it is exposed to water. Yet I read this all the time in threads. I encourage everyone that uses this product to read the MSDS sheet. It's inert when hard but when useing it it can cause acute respiratory symptoms. I can just picture all the froggers working in the basement with no ventilation Not a good idea. If you are sensitive to it it can feel like an asthma attack. BE CAREFULL OUT THERE!

Glenn & Laura


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

donstr said:


> While not exactly as "smooth" as glass I've had a philodendron climb up the high gloss paint of my bathroom wall with its aerial roots. It went from the floor to around the 6 foot mark before my children tore it down one day. Ahhhh, children.


Hi

That's cool! You must have a big bathroom Kids kill me. Just when you think you've seen everything AAAAHH!

Glenn & Laura


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## Geckoguy (Dec 10, 2008)

You could use GS or even styrofoam blocks carved up on the back wall and then cover it in the epiweb. That way you can have some different surface levels and have the epiweb for a really stable root base. Ive thought about trying this but I really like the way GS covered in peat moss looks.


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> Hi
> 
> Thanks harry. How could a plants roots stick to glass. We really don't know much about epipytes. Can you explain this
> 
> Glenn & Laura


I believe that vanderwaals forces are what allow these to stick. It was a bit over my head in chem, but as I understood it, they were weak forces unlike covalent or ionic, resulting from the instantaneous dipole moments of the atoms in a molecule interacting with surrounding molecules. Basically weak intermolecular forces that, with enough surface area, can cause the observed sticky affect.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I think that additionally the little root hairs seek out the surface imperfections and use them as anchor points


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Geckoguy said:


> You could use GS or even styrofoam blocks carved up on the back wall and then cover it in the epiweb. That way you can have some different surface levels and have the epiweb for a really stable root base. Ive thought about trying this but I really like the way GS covered in peat moss looks.


HI

We're in the middle of doing 3 large vivs right now. All the GS/ silicine method. We do like the end result. We're looking at doing something different on the next one. Racking our brains to come up with something different and more user freindly Anyone out threre that's done something out of the norm?? We would love to see some pics.

Glenn & Laura


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

cork bark. miimal silocone, spagnum and live moss for plants and to fill in cracks


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

frogfreak said:


> Hi
> 
> Just wondering if you use the pinning method how well the roots will grab on to GS, silicone, coco fibre. Do you have to have crevices of small pieces of would also? wondering if Epiweb is needed in spots.
> 
> Glenn & Laura


All the epiphytes I've used have climbed and rooted in the foam backgrounds that I've made. My backgrounds are just black pond foam with peat moss and stuff smashed into it. No silicone. Some of the broms that I've used send out these really sharp spike roots that pierce the peat and foam easily. You could also use tree fern in spots for a more natural look.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

frogparty said:


> cork bark. miimal silocone, spagnum and live moss for plants and to fill in cracks


Hi

I like this viv a lot. I really like the all cork bark texture. I may give that one a shot. Thanks

Glenn & Laura


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

pl259 said:


> All the epiphytes I've used have climbed and rooted in the foam backgrounds that I've made. My backgrounds are just black pond foam with peat moss and stuff smashed into it. No silicone. Some of the broms that I've used send out these really sharp spike roots that pierce the peat and foam easily. You could also use tree fern in spots for a more natural look.


Hi

Do you have any pics Eric? It would be appreciated if we could have a peek.

Glenn & Laura


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