# pums and film canisters



## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Film canister where my Solarte female has laid a tadpole has slipped down the glass putting vertically. It is the first time that happens. (They usually lays in broms and froglet come out of the water without problems).
Now the tadpole is almost formed and ready to go out. If film canister at 45° I have no doubt. But, according to your experience, there is a risk that froglet drown? (The film canister is full of water.)
I ask this because I lost some epips by drowning.
Thanks


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that it will be able to get out of the canister.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think he will be able to get out of the canister. However, if the tadpole is almost ready to come out, then I think it would be ok to move the canister to a different position if you want.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank you. If I move it, I fear that the female - who is shy - no longer nourish it. It was laid on April 6, but despite the high temps of these days here, it takes a little longer before it becomes froglet. Greetings


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Hey Rigle how are you?

Buddy I think you should be ok to leave it alone,if I have understood you correctly. IE you have a pum tad in a vertical orientated can which is being fed and you are worried it can't climb out? I have many pum kids from my two groups of cemetery bastimentos,that have been fine getting out of cans set bolt upright. I think they are so tiny and weigh so little,they almost stick to the side by the water tension,so can climb straight up with out any real problem for me anyway. I only think the froglet would drown if something was not quite right with it,if it is strong and healthy I think it will be fine

good luck

Stu


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

I leave ALL my Ranitomeya in vertically-oriented, slick-sided acrylic containers until well after they've completely morphed (several days after the tail bud is gone). I have literally NEVER had a drowning. They always crawl up the side no problem and park there for days. The froglets go straight from the tadpole container to a juvenile cage. Intermediate or sloping containers are a waste of time and space for these frogs, though they may be necessary for larger froglets like Phyllobates or Dendrobates. I have no doubt vertical containers are fine for pums.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank you all. 
In truth it is the first time that happens to me because usually film canisters fall on the ground - fortunately when they are empty! My pums prefer to lay in broms, but now they are rotten - I have new ones in tupperware but I have not had time to replace them.

Hey, Stu, I'm fine thanks!
I thinned my presence in the forum because of work.

Now I see to have become "senior member" with these posts... What a great responsibility!
A "senior member" which starts a "beginner" thread. Lol!
Greetings to all


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I agree with the above. All of my pumilio raised in film cans climb out with no problem. never lost one to not being able to get out. That's been my experience anyway.



Lol, I guess that makes you a senior noob


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## TheCoon (Feb 8, 2011)

To comment on your fear of the mother no longer nourishing the tad if you move it: Once the tadpole nears the end of its transformation, it no longer requires nourishment from the mother. The energy required for the final stages of metamorphosis comes from resorption of the tail. This begins to occur around the time when the front legs develop. Movement of the canister, so long as it still contains water, will have no impact on the development of the tadpole if it has developed, or is developing, front legs.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I would actually just pull the tadpole and put it and its film canister right into a froglet container seeded with microfauna. This means no stress of catching the froglet later. I would set the canister upright to reduce the chance of the froglet leaving before it has transformed completely


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Dendrobait said:


> I would actually just pull the tadpole and put it and its film canister right into a froglet container seeded with microfauna. This means no stress of catching the froglet later. I would set the canister upright to reduce the chance of the froglet leaving before it has transformed completely


It is good advice. The tadpole was transported on April 6... Whereas here is very hot and in the viv temps are 77-80° F (night-day), I think that in ten days he will become froglet.
As long as you believe that the female - who has already laid other 4 good eggs four days ago - continue to feed him?
Thanks


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

If your tadpole has 4 legs it is no longer being fed. Its digestive system is changing radically to prepare for life on land.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I just checked the tadpole: he - I hope "she" - has four legs fully formed, a very nice color, but still has his tail.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> If your tadpole has 4 legs it is no longer being fed. Its digestive system is changing radically to prepare for life on land.


 Do you think this applies to all oophaga,when do you think the exact cut off point is?

cheers in advance

Rigle senior noob when I get from being old to senior can I steal that please

Stu


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Most all frogs stop feeding at this point in metamorphosis. Possible exceptions might be carnivores like ornates and budgetts tads.

Rigel....that sounds perfect. Its up to you but if it were me id pull him now.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I did not have new births since last August, so braplast where I usually put froglets, even if it is ready, it is still without springtails. Since yesterday I'm putting a lot of springtails in it. Tomorrow certainly I pull out the tad/froglet to put him into the container.
Thanks for your advice


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> Most all frogs stop feeding at this point in metamorphosis. Possible exceptions might be carnivores like ornates and budgetts tads.
> 
> Rigel....that sounds perfect. Its up to you but if it were me id pull him now.


 Joseph,I would have answered almost exactly the same ,a year back. But now i'm not so sure. i've come across reports of tincs feeding after this cut off point ,but more than that i've hand fed oophaga tads after this point and watched them eat the eggs given. Joseph,I was not setting you up here I was very curious as you seemed so sure. I suspect that the precise cut off point might vary slightly between species and be just a bit later than the widely excepted "front legs popping". I've also pondered whether the oophaga having such a specialized(basically simple) diet might just naturally be able to keep feeding just a bit longer than the less specialized dendros. No real substance to this musing though other than watching a repeat incidence,ie 4(maybe 5 thinking back) tads all did this when given the chance.

What ever one's moral stance on rearing oophaga by a non conventional means there is no doubt in my mind one learns things/sees things that don't quite add up to what we read in conventional wisdom. I find these little things utterly fascinating actually. I have also wondered whether that last feed might have been crucial to a couple of those tads,I'll never know I guess.

Rigle best 'o' luck bro. Mate you know about some of what I've written above,not only have we tried various means of rearing tads but also froglets of both the species and morphs of oophaga we keep. I've pulled at exactly the stage you are at reared in small containers large containers and of late reared in the parental viv. I've been incredibly fortunate in most facets of this, I suppose, and have reared most of them. But one factor stands out for me. The froglets I rear in the parental viv grow faster. I'm actually astounded at this time by the red head kids growth rate in viv(it should not be this way there are too many for that viv),sure I know different species,but the pums are showing me the same. So something to ponder mate. For me no right or wrong way,just the best way for each individual and his set of circumstances. Ha the progression of a dart keeper mate,one facet of this meant I came back to conventional wisdom after trying all manner of rearing one facet where I went against conventional wisdom rearing tads has lead me to question basic things we think we know in a normally reared oophaga tad

all a learning curve bro

cheers both

Stu


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks for the good advice, Stu, but I think to pull out the froglet - maybe waiting a few more days because I saw the female near film canister earlier.
Ideal thing would be to be able to pull out of the viv the froglet just before he comes out of the water avoiding stress for froglet, for parents - and for me.
I do not think to raise him in parental viv because my Solarte male is very aggressive, a little bulldog - even towards me, LOL! (The female instead is very shy and picky). In addition, the microfauna that I put in viv is soon eaten by the male. He does not give me the time to put new springtails that he comes forward without fear of me and devour them!


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Stu,

That is fascinating. Yes, I do wonder if the carnivorous diet of particularly oophaga would allow for later feeding.

What factors would cause froglets reared in parent vivs to grow faster? I assume your vivs are larger and have lots of microfauna to graze on? 

My best luck has been pulling at the frog with a tail stage, maybe now I will wait for the tail to shrink noticeabky...and rearing froglets in what are basically leaflitter and coconut springtail cultures. I try to add mites as well...it seems these are the favorite food of pumilio in the wild and babies love love them.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Joseph I've done exactly the same with some early pums,pulled just after the front legs popped,I came across this later on.Maybe the eggs are just such a simple food?

I can give you no logical reason why they grow faster ,I'd make a guess it might be something to do with the age of the subs and how much vit's have gone in to them, over the years and the potential climbing frame. Why I pulled first is because I thought they should logically do better without competition of their parents. Back to the red heads for a minute because it is so extreme,too my eyes what I am seeing is completely unfathomable !! There are 8 frogs now in a (god old money) viv say 2'high by 16"sq base. mum dad 5 kids one age, one kid much younger I'm starting to have to look twice as they are close enough to the adults (the 5) to mix up on casual glance. So the viv is silly over stocked and not huge,i'm watching mate and ready to split,but learning a hell of a lot at the same time,so pushing my luck a bit,there is more ,but another day huh. The red frog beach viv next door is also same size and overstocked. But the froglets are still doing fantastic even little ones with older competitors. Make no mistake I can throw springs at them in quantity,but I can do that where ever they are so to me that is irrelevent. Jo I simply have no idea,why this is happening i've read of this 'course it links with the mysterious obligate death syndrome, but I tried ever thing else first rearing wise. Partially with the red heads exactly why Rigle wants to pull agrressive male,but he's actually being really cool considering what has invaded his tank

Buddy I just don't know but by the same token wow 

Rigle what can I say,sorry dude I've taken your thread a bit left field,but it's all so fascinating please forgive. I hope it all goes fantastic for you with the little guy

take care both

Stu


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Stu,

What are your substrates like? I wiuld imagine minerals could build up over time in clay or kitty kitter type subs.

My pumilio pair is in a 12 x 12 x 18...but interesting to see your success in tanks not much larger. Do you keep track of number of metamorphs vs number of surviving juvies? The main thing for feeding springs in viv is worry of the adults eatin em all.

The dead ringer for the tad thing would be to observe parents feeding a tad at this late stage.

How old do pumilio need to be to breed? I have 1 calling at 6 months, as well as some 9 month olds who are nearly adult size.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I am in the same situation of Dendrobait, that is: pair in 12x12x18. In addition my frogs are very voracious - and male is aggressive.
So today I put tad/froglet in a small container after seeing him peeking out of the water. In a few days it will be a froglet in all respects.
Thank you all for the good advice


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ahh Rigle, the best of luck with him buddy. 

Jo I'm using basically layer of coarse orchid bark under a layer of part rotted leaf litter and then lots of whole leaves,not really a mineral based substrate,but I'm sure I'll get to clay subs oneday. I'm not really in a rush tough ...if it ain't broke,don't fix it. But I am convinced they will be superior to what I use now.That is in a euro type viv that has the false sloping glass floor. Obviously size is important,but what one does inside that space is almost equally so for me anyway. So sure some of these supps must leech out,but I just can't really fins an other possible reason ,why I am seeing what I see. Removing a froglet while morphing should alleviate any stress, base subs mix I would use in a grow out identical to the viv,so that's those two ruled out. Parental competition should make the froglet's life in viv a bit harder,so that works in favour of the growout,I just don't know,why buddy,but this is what I'm seeing.

Mortality very low mate I would think,I'm sure I must loose some,but by and large if I see X number morph then normally that is what I pull,I just can't remember finding a loss or being aware that the numbers are wrong,although it must happen,I have certainly lost a couple or 3 right on morphout just before they leave the water and those were not moved or tampered with by me at all.. 

That said I have thought I have had a couple of froglets die in the RFB viv.. They can be difficult to catch in that one...really difficult. I remember two frogs from different clutches,I knew where one actually hid I just was too worried of harming her in the tiny space she would go to so kept leaving her or trying again to catch her and she would beat me. This frog was fairly unusual as the white came right up it's sides(easy to ID) and I honestly thought it has passed in viv. I didn't see it for months and months,or the second I mentioned. Then quite recently spotted both really late one night. They must have been avoiding me from the failed catching I suppose,then they have started to relax and bingo I am seeing them both more and more,can't believe it actually. So they didn't die after all

Guys let it be said I'm slightly mad,ok understatement,but I constantly talk to our frogs,ok I haven't got any friends.but seriously I do. I think it relaxes the frogs and they have enough going on that with time they know me...and Shaz for that matter. For me it's a way of trying to prevent stress in that they know who is coming because even before the viv is touched i'm talking. To my point: I have no idea if others see this,but if I have a group of pum froglets morph within days they will know that I bring springtails to them I can open the door and they will be starting to appear,by the time I'm tapping some springs I'll usually have the full compliment waiting for dinner. The side benefit is I know most days where each one hangs out. so this is a real aid to me as I can feed them almost directly, monitor them, and for some time until the adults get there they have no competition for food. Whether this insanity would be viewed as helpful,who knows,seems to work for me Hmm it's actually bloody enchanting to be part of too,bless 'em,all these tiny faces emerging from under leaves etc. is really very special. Mad it may be,but it is a real joy to see. 

Jo I can't answer your final question I reckon about a year. RFB came here very very male high,I am very female short,many here are far worse off at one time I had at least 5 folks asking for females. I have a lot of adult sized frogs over a year and no breeding,I could have all males,all females I just don't know, i'm dying for them to start so I can prove some out and set up a second viv of them,but no luck as of yet so I guess it will come when they are ready or I'll have to start swapping them around until I find the right frogs that like each other. It is incredibly frustrating,but like all things in life,the good stuff comes to those that wait

seeya

Stu


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Hello, Stu. Sorry for the delay in the response, but it is a long time since I do not watch this my thread. 
The froglet grows well. I followed the instructions of Dendrobait, very helpful - and I will do the same in the future.
Some problems with temps here: a few days ago 15 ° C, today 30 ° C. A few stress for my froglet because of that - I do not have a thermocontrolled (I hope it says so in english) frogroom.
I really like that you "talk to the frogs"... I have frogs in a room in my house - or rather in two rooms - and if I talk them, my parents would think I'm crazy. Greetings


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## lunger (Oct 17, 2010)

Not sure if anyone has done this but I ordered some film canisters and some small magnets. The magnets are strong enough to hold a film canister full of water plus mom, pop and the in-laws along with baby without moving up, down or any other direction. My plan is to epoxy the magnet to the canister (after sanding a rough spot on the plastic canister) and use another magnet on the outside of the glass to keep the canister in place. My Punta Laurents just put their very first tad in the water of a film canister suction cupped in place. I don't really trust the suction cup as I've had them fall before!! Any thoughts on this fellow froggers? I have seen the magnet trick done on blown glass tad cups so I assume it works without any ill effects to the frogs or tads. Input appreciated and I will have my supply of canisters and magnets in a few days. Maybe I will post my creation when it's done and tested. I hope I'm not stealing anyone's idea here but like I said, I have only seen this done with the glass decorative tad cups for sale. I forget the vendor but I'm sure someone on here knows of them. Hope this helps solve the falling/tilting canister problem. 30 canisters and 30 magnets total price of around $70. I'm sure materials can be found for cheaper if one searches. I didn't bother too much. 

Bruce


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I dont understand the fascination with sticking film canisters to glass. The frogs will find and use them anywhere I think. I have a pair of nanded imis that are so far quote retiring. They still found and use a testube right at the front on the floor.


I found a bunch of glass test tubes that work well too. Just jam them into the substrate to keep them from rolling.


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## lunger (Oct 17, 2010)

I think that the whole film canister thing is mostly personal preference. There is usually more vertical space available in the enclosures (assuming we are talking verts) and I, for one, would prefer to see canisters neatly stacked up the side of the glass rather than littering the bottom sticking out of the substrate. I'm sure the frogs don't care and would have no problem using either...so again, it's just personal for each frogger. Also, I prefer removing eggs from a film canister as opposed to a brom. Therefore, If I can increase the odds of them laying more often in the film canisters I will try to push my odds in that direction. Even if it means a little extra time and money to get the canisters mounted securely. But that's just me...


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

A friend of mine has had great success with pums putting film canisters hidden among the plants. And on my observations, I generally agree with him. However, frogs are sometimes strange. For example, my Solarte pair n. 1 prefer white film canister, the other frogs blacks cans. But that is because brom in my vivs have rotted in the last few weeks: I look after the summer to put the new broms I have in my "nursery". Nothing is better than large broms to obligate frogs.
And it's true! Too often I have seen film canisters on the ground because the suction cups. Therefore now I take only expensive suckers with 4 cm in diameter (0.50 euro each!).


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

That does make sense. With a risk free way of mounting film canisters or the like id be on board. Id rather have messy tanks with a lower risk of losing tads.

We do need to keep in mind that in the wild these guys are limited by number of suitable breeding sites. So they will find and use what is available.


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## lunger (Oct 17, 2010)

Yes, absolutely messy is better than losing a tad. However...why not have the best of both worlds if possible? I like to tinker with my setups so it's part of the fun with the hobby for me. However, it's not for everyone. Some folks would rather do something else with their time. I'm always trying to come up with better/easier/more effective ways to do things so I'm gonna give the magnets a try. I don't want to pay $16 for a glass tad cup but I love the magnet idea so I'm gonna "steal" it and apply it to regular plastic canisters. I'm sure some frogger out there is already doing that though! Right??


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## Jjimenez081122 (Feb 22, 2014)

What about the straw metheod? Has anyone tried?


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## robthefrogman (Jul 19, 2014)

I have had this happen to colon's so what I did was take a plant (like a straw-kind of only from tank and alive..LOL) and put it in there so the froglet can get out and the female parent can get in to feed it if it still needs too. Everything worked out....good luck...


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

robthefrogman said:


> I have had this happen to colon's so what I did was take a plant (like a straw-kind of only from tank and alive..LOL) and put it in there so the froglet can get out and the female parent can get in to feed it if it still needs too. Everything worked out....good luck...


Do you have any pics?


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