# RO Water ?'s - complete noob



## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Just beginning to research the key points of vivariums, and there is a lot to learn! It's pretty daunting...anyhow, my first question is regarding RO water. I've done several searches and read some threads, done a little googling, but can't seem to comprehend exactly what is going on with RO. I've seen a lot of talk about RO water, and Mist King website talks about using it to prevent clogging of the nozzles. Are there any other reasons to use RO water besides mist nozzle cleanliness? What are all of the key reasons one would use RO? Is tap water harmful to frogs? And if it's required, are the systems complex to do, or is it easy as buying some kind of kit and throwing it together?

Thanks


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## MX83Drifter (Feb 13, 2012)

as far as i know, reverse osmosis water is pretty much the purest water you can get. there are no contaminates in it, such as chlorine, calcium, normal stuff in regular tap water. hence the reason mistking recommends it to keep your nozzles clean. you can look up the different levels of contaminates in the water throughout the us.

thats my understanding of ro water... its better to use all around in my opinion.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

You can get a kit that plugs into your faucet through a faucet adapter. This would be simplest set up. Remove when you aren't using it. The other way to set it up is to plumb it with your sink. Little more complicated but you could also set up a reservoir this way so it is always available. Some aquarium ro systems say you should not drink the water. I believe there is a slight difference in the last step or two for ro systems for aquariums and drinking water. May not be all brands but I have seen it.


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

From my experiences my RO system does not remove chlorine. But it removes everything else from the water. I always use it for all my critters. My bearded dragons, salt water reef tank, frogs etc... 

2.2 bassleri 2.3 E.A Santa Isabella 1.1 tinctorious Patricia 0.1 Green Sipplewini 0.0.3 Leucs


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## Ivan M (Apr 11, 2012)

I am using POLAND SPRING bottled water, my question here is do i still need to dechlorinate water before using it? Don't mean to hijack the thread but had this question for a while, and want to know before i add frogs to the enclosure, i too am newbie.


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## TURQ64 (Apr 21, 2012)

I only have a few viv's, but as a fish breeder, I use 14,000 gallons of RO a month..I have since the mid eighties..All RO's should remove chlorine and chloramines. If they don't, your carbon block prefilter is shot. Most RO's, from basic to advanced have a micron prefilter for sediments, next a carbon prefilter for chemicals, and then the RO membrane, which removes most everything else. Different brands of membranes have varying rates of removal, but all are in the high 90% for minute trace stuff...Then advanced units add on DI,etc. for whistles and bells..I use units with and without DI...basically a clean slate of water, but there are also no beneficial minerals left in the product water. It can't differentiate between good elements and bad elements, they just remove most TDS.s..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> . Some aquarium ro systems say you should not drink the water.


This is simply a liability protection statement. They don't want someone getting a RO system for the tank, drinking the water and sueing them by claiming it made them sick....particularly since people may not take the best care of thier aquarium RO system which could allow for contamination (I've seen that occur with incorrectly set up and installed units where cyanobacteria started growing in the lines and clear filter chambers.) 

Ed


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Ed said:


> This is simply a liability protection statement. They don't want someone getting a RO system for the tank, drinking the water and sueing them by claiming it made them sick....particularly since people may not take the best care of thier aquarium RO system which could allow for contamination (I've seen that occur with incorrectly set up and installed units where cyanobacteria started growing in the lines and clear filter chambers.)
> 
> Ed



The system I have gives extra stages of DI instead of a post carbon stage (for the drinking unit) which I believe they say changes the taste. So you are probably correct that it is still safe.

Can you explain this cyanobacteria and how to prevent this?


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

MX83Drifter said:


> as far as i know, reverse osmosis water is pretty much the purest water you can get. there are no contaminates in it, such as chlorine, calcium, normal stuff in regular tap water.


Well... sort of.

RO water is purified, but the level of purification has a lot to do with how pure the water is that you're feeding the RO.

There are ways to purify RO water further - the use of deionization resin is common in the marine aquarium hobby for instance.

Russ


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

mydumname said:


> You can get a kit that plugs into your faucet through a faucet adapter. This would be simplest set up. Remove when you aren't using it. The other way to set it up is to plumb it with your sink. Little more complicated but you could also set up a reservoir this way so it is always available. Some aquarium ro systems say you should not drink the water. I believe there is a slight difference in the last step or two for ro systems for aquariums and drinking water. May not be all brands but I have seen it.


Residential scale RO systems were desined/developed to provide... drinking water.

I think you are thinking about RODI water - RO water that has been further purified by running it through DI resin.

You wouldn't want to drink it - it doesn't taste "right."

Russ


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

Buddysfrogs said:


> From my experiences my RO system does not remove chlorine. But it removes everything else from the water. I always use it for all my critters. My bearded dragons, salt water reef tank, frogs etc...


Nearly all modern residential scale RO systems include a carbon prefilter which removes chlorine, and a TFC RO membrane which can't tolerate exposre to chlorine.

So bottom line - yes - they remove chlorine.

Russ


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

Ivan M said:


> I am using POLAND SPRING bottled water, my question here is do i still need to dechlorinate water before using it? Don't mean to hijack the thread but had this question for a while, and want to know before i add frogs to the enclosure, i too am newbie.


Not sure which Poland Spring product you're using - you can read through this to find your answer:
http://www.nestle-watersna.com/pdf/ps_bwqr.pdf


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

BuckeyeFS said:


> Residential scale RO systems were desined/developed to provide... drinking water.
> 
> I think you are thinking about RODI water - RO water that has been further purified by running it through DI resin.
> 
> ...


Yeah that's what my second post clarified.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> The system I have gives extra stages of DI instead of a post carbon stage (for the drinking unit) which I believe they say changes the taste. So you are probably correct that it is still safe.
> 
> Can you explain this cyanobacteria and how to prevent this?


A unicellular photosynthetic organism that can form mats, and potentially release cyanotoxins. 

1) don't plumb it incorrectly
2) don't let the interior get dusty
3) don't place it under strong lights 

Ed


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## yadoku (May 11, 2012)

reverse osmosis removes not only chlorine but ~95% of the total dissolved solids from tap water-organics (chlorine), hard metals, ions, etc, depending on the pre-filters. if you add a deionizing filter, that will basically take the total dissolved solids down to almost nil, so very very pure water.

i've been using RODI water for misting for the past year and have not seen any adverse effects.


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

The RO membrane is rated for what percentage of total dissolved solids it removes (95% is pretty typical). The cartridges before it are mostly meant to preserve the membrane, by removing chlorine and "big particles" -- typically you might run a cartridge that filters down to 5 microns, then 1 micron, and then a carbon block, then the RO membrane. 

If you have (for example) incoming water at about 200ppm total dissolved solids, and a properly installed and maintained (basically, the proper incoming water pressure, prefilter cartridges replaced regularly and a membrane that has been flushed regularly and within its service life, etc.) RO unit with a 95% membrane, you can expect that the water at the other end is going to be dechlorinated and at about 10ppm TDS. You can get this further down to 0 TDS by running another stage with deionization (DI) resin, but DI resins are expensive and are exhausted fairly quickly (which is why you don't just run the 200ppm water directly into them), and may not be necessary unless you need really pure water (typically reef hobbyists will do this for tank water; for drinking water, cooking water, misters, etc., I bypass the DI stage on mine). 

It's not really difficult to properly set up and maintain an RO unit; it's just like everything else, it takes a bit of planning and maintenance. There are cheap inline TDS meters that you can add that will tell you when it's time to do some maintenance, and there are other meters you can add that can be set to sound alarms at X number of gallons to remind you to change cartridges, etc. It's also worth buying (or borrowing if you can, since you won't need it often) a pressure gauge so you can make sure your water pressure going into the system is proper; if it's not you may need a flow restrictor or a permeate pump before the unit to get the proper pressure. Last but not least, remember that water past the prefilter cartridges has the sterilization (chlorine) removed, so treat it as such and transport and store it in a fashion as to avoid situations where bacteria, algae, etc. can grow in it.


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

nonliteral said:


> Last but not least, remember that water past the prefilter cartridges has the sterilization (chlorine) removed, so treat it as such and transport and store it in a fashion as to avoid situations where bacteria, algae, etc. can grow in it.


Lot's of good info in Chuck's post. Let me clarify a couple things so folks don't get confused. 



> The RO membrane is rated for what percentage of total dissolved solids it removes (95% is pretty typical).


The most widely sold small membranes in the US are made by DOW/Filmtec. All of them are spec'ed at 96 to 98% rejection, except the 100 gpd membrane, which will reject 90% of feedwater TDS.



> It's also worth buying (or borrowing if you can, since you won't need it often) a pressure gauge so you can make sure your water pressure going into the system is proper


We look at pressure gauges as a necessary piece of equipment if you want to be able to run and troubleshoot the systems. Not only will they tell you if you have enough pressure to run the system, but if they are installed in the correct location (after the prefilters), they'll tell you when the prefilters are clogging and need to be replaced.



> you may need a flow restrictor or a permeate pump before the unit to get the proper pressure.


If your pressure is too high (this is uncommon) you may need a pressure regulator, or may need to adjust the regulator already installed in your house. A "flow restrictor" is a different part entirely and isn't used to reduce feedwater pressure. A flow restrictor is installed in the waste water tube of an RO system.

If your plumbing pressure is too low (this is a more common situation), you may need a booster pump (rather than a permeate pump). 

Booster Pump:









Permeate pumps are used on RO systems that feed a pressurized storage tank - but they don't do anything to address low feedwater pressure.
Permeate Pump:










Russ


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

BuckeyeFS said:


> If your pressure is too high (this is uncommon) you may need a pressure regulator, or may need to adjust the regulator already installed in your house. A "flow restrictor" is a different part entirely and isn't used to reduce feedwater pressure. A flow restrictor is installed in the waste water tube of an RO system.


Just a minor sidetrack -- when I added a pressure gauge, I ended up discovering that I was one of those odd ones that had too much water pressure -- about 95 - 100psi -- which not only explained why I had to tighten the **** out of my filter cartridges to keep them from leaking, but also why I had an unusual amount of faucet and toilet flush valve failures over the previous few years. I ended up having a 65psi whole house regulator installed (my house was apparently built before these were common), and my RO systems (and the rest of my plumbing) are much happier...


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

Yep. UPC (Plumbing) Code calls for a max residential line pressure of 80 psi. So 65 is fine and dandy - probably better than most. Low pressure - less than 50 psi, is a more common problem.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

*Thank you to everybody* for all of your helpful and thorough replies. I appreciate the time and advice.



> You can get a kit that plugs into your faucet through a faucet adapter. This would be simplest set up. Remove when you aren't using it. The other way to set it up is to plumb it with your sink. Little more complicated but you could also set up a reservoir this way so it is always available.


How do most of you guys have your systems set up? The temp setup ones or the permanent hookup? I assume the fish breeders have the permanent hookup.

Any other tips for these systems? Specific brands with kits that are good quality and easy to use?

Thanks again.

- Matt


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

you would use RO water for your misters and then if your animal requires a water bowl for instance like RETFs you would want to add RO Rite or something like that back into the water for the water dish to replace the good minerals for the frog. Alot of people will say that RO or RODI water will hurt the frog as it will pull minerals or whatever from the frog

RO systems for drinking water usually have a filter in the last stage that adds a taste into the water

RO or RODI water is not the only water you can use in mistkings. You can use distilled water which is easily bought from the grocery store.


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

J Teezy said:


> RO systems for drinking water usually have a filter in the last stage that adds a taste into the water


I think you're talking about a "taste and odor" filter - those are filters intended to _remove _the taste/odor the water RO water picks up while stored in a pressurized storage tank.


Russ


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## TURQ64 (Apr 21, 2012)

J Teezy said:


> you would use RO water for your misters and then if your animal requires a water bowl for instance like RETFs you would want to add RO Rite or something like that back into the water for the water dish to replace the good minerals for the frog. Alot of people will say that RO or RODI water will hurt the frog as it will pull minerals or whatever from the frog
> 
> RO systems for drinking water usually have a filter in the last stage that adds a taste into the water
> 
> RO or RODI water is not the only water you can use in mistkings. You can use distilled water which is easily bought from the grocery store.


I'm a bit confused by the part of this statement regarding 'pulling minerals' from the frog..How would water devoid of minerals, and deionised have any ability to 'pull' anything? At 14k gallons a month that I use year after year, if their was any truth to this, my aquarium residents, especially wc Heckels would quickly perish. Other than hearsay, I'd really like to see something with at least a little scientific proof of this phenomenon.
for the sake of dosing, RO Right into something like a film canister would be hard to accomplish properly. A few drops of aged tap is an easier way of adding back some minerals (unless your water has a lot ofextra nasties like groundwater chemicals)..That's my take, but I would like to see that research on the mineral transference. Gary


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

TURQ64 said:


> I'm a bit confused by the part of this statement regarding 'pulling minerals' from the frog..How would water devoid of minerals, and deionised have any ability to 'pull' anything? At 14k gallons a month that I use year after year, if their was any truth to this, my aquarium residents, especially wc Heckels would quickly perish. Other than hearsay, I'd really like to see something with at least a little scientific proof of this phenomenon.
> for the sake of dosing, RO Right into something like a film canister would be hard to accomplish properly. A few drops of aged tap is an easier way of adding back some minerals (unless your water has a lot ofextra nasties like groundwater chemicals)..That's my take, but I would like to see that research on the mineral transference. Gary


I think most of it is rumor. A couple years ago I was talking to one of the few scientists on the board about using RO water vs RO/DI water for the frogs. This person made clear that it is only rumor and it does not hurt the frogs. Maybe science has changed since then, but I doubt it. However, for my tads I replace the minerals in the deionized water that I buy.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

TURQ64 said:


> I'm a bit confused by the part of this statement regarding 'pulling minerals' from the frog..How would water devoid of minerals, and deionised have any ability to 'pull' anything? At 14k gallons a month that I use year after year, if their was any truth to this, my aquarium residents, especially wc Heckels would quickly perish. Other than hearsay, I'd really like to see something with at least a little scientific proof of this phenomenon.
> for the sake of dosing, RO Right into something like a film canister would be hard to accomplish properly. A few drops of aged tap is an easier way of adding back some minerals (unless your water has a lot ofextra nasties like groundwater chemicals)..That's my take, but I would like to see that research on the mineral transference. Gary





jeeperrs said:


> I think most of it is rumor. A couple years ago I was talking to one of the few scientists on the board about using RO water vs RO/DI water for the frogs. This person made clear that it is only rumor and it does not hurt the frogs. Maybe science has changed since then, but I doubt it. However, for my tads I replace the minerals in the deionized water that I buy.


Rumor isn't really the right word. Rather a misunderstanding of the biology and chemisrty involved. Because our frogs, and most fish BTW, have active transport systems for the uptake of important solutes, the use of highly purified water is seldom detrimental. While the water enters our tank pure, it doesn't stay pure for long. Tannins and salts are leached from leaves, substrates, wood, etc. Also the amount of water typically misted is very small, thus little loss due to osmotic pressures. Take into account that most of us are feeding with dusted flies and such and you have plenty of available minerals for the frogs from their food source as well. I'm sure I've butchered this explaination quite a bit.

Turq, in the case of your fish, your WD discus are superbly adapted to living in environments with low TDS, hence why they actually often die when placed in water with too high of a TDS. I'm going to wager to guess that you are not using water at Zero TDS, as most systems are not capable of this level of purification. Your water is also picking up solutes from substrates, foods, perhaps you're even adding RO right or aged tap water, but your water isn't at 0 TDS in your tanks, thats a virtual impossibility. Even if it comes in at such during a water change, that changes quickly. Some fish are not as well adapted to waters with LOW TDS, and will often perish in very clean water. I too have been using strait RO water, with no addatives in my planted tanks for years, and keep angels, cardinal tetras and other soft water fishes just fine, but the water quickly picks up solutes from the sand, soil, fish wastes, food, etc.

Rest assured that most animals placed in water with 0 TDS will eventually die. It just so happens that while we may use realy pure water, it doesn't stay that way, and that animals have other sources for aquiring essential ions, thus, there is little/or no concern in using RO or DI water for misting in a vivarium.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

J Teezy said:


> you would use RO water for your misters and then if your animal requires a water bowl for instance like RETFs you would want to add RO Rite or something like that back into the water for the water dish to replace the good minerals for the frog. Alot of people will say that RO or RODI water will hurt the frog as it will pull minerals or whatever from the frog


 
And a lot of people are wrong.. This is one of the persistent voodoo husbandry practices that have been floating around forever..... See the break down here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html 

Reverse osmosis/distilled water with RO right added to them still cause ion loss from the frogs, etc, due to how the animal gets rid of excess water through the skin... this is true for all types of water that are not of the same osmotic potential as the frog (isotonic). See the above link for more data. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Rest assured that most animals placed in water with 0 TDS will eventually die. It just so happens that while we may use realy pure water, it doesn't stay that way, and that animals have other sources for aquiring essential ions, thus, there is little/or no concern in using RO or DI water for misting in a vivarium.


Death would require that they cannot get out of the water ever, and that something screws up thier ability to osmoregulate (sick or badly stressed), it isn't a concern for healthy dart frogs or even tadpoles. 

Ed


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## TURQ64 (Apr 21, 2012)

Darn straight, Ed..No 'zero' TDS here.. all TDS ranges in my systems are somewhere between 30 and 80 for WC, and considerably higher for my domestics with the exception of breeder's. Also, I use Filmtec and US Membrane replacement membranes in my RO's, and both have a rejection rate in the high 90's, but the other 'little percents' make it almost impossible for me to hit any 'zero' readings...for the sake of easy math (I'm fairly number stupid) if your tap is running 380 TDS, the RO membrane rejects 90% of 380, leaving a TDS of 38. Solutes right off the bat to some degree...I just find too much 'mumbo-jumbo' when folks think RO is some kind of mystery..Just a mechanical device, not much 'science' to them..a bunch of pre and post filters, a membrane, and some plumbing parts, no great mystery to them. Sorry for the spiel, but I need a few posts to up my count for the classifieds!..Gary


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

flyingSquirrel said:


> How do most of you guys have your systems set up? The temp setup ones or the permanent hookup? I assume the fish breeders have the permanent hookup.


I put a tee valve from the hardware store on the cold water line for my faucets for the input side. I use a saddle valve on the drain pipe for the waste water. You can get the latter from most of the RO system vendors. For me it's a lot easier / less fuss / less chance of something coming loose and flooding the floor to have them permanently connected. 



flyingSquirrel said:


> Any other tips for these systems? Specific brands with kits that are good quality and easy to use?


Tips depends a little bit on how you will end up using the system; I've got two -- one is under the sink in the kitchen and in addition to supplying water for critters, I use it for cooking water, drinking water, watering plants, etc. For this use it's massively convenient to have a pressure tank so you can get a couple of gallons out fast without waiting for the normal slow production (around 5 gallons an hour on this unit, depending on water temp). I also have a tap mounted on the sink. 

At the other end of the house (in a fish room supporting a couple of reef tanks) I don't care much about demand use (so no pressure tank), but I do care about volume production -- so this unit has a second membrane and can produce about 10 gallons an hour. 

You can start out with a good basic unit and add any of this stuff as you go along and find out what would best fit your specific needs.

Re: Vendors; I've got one unit from AirWaterIce, another from Bulk Reef Supply; both are fine, and you can mix and match pieces from most any. Buckeye has been posting on this thread, and I've heard lots of good things about them also, but haven't had an opportunity to use them personally.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Thanks again to everybody. I was just about to let this thread end...but then I started thinking about water chemistry. I thought, if we are removing minerals and other things from the water, then we must be changing the chemistry of it...and then I also decided to read the wikipedia article on RO to further learn how RO really works and all that. My thought about chemistry seems to be confirmed, which leads to more questions... 

Quote from Reverse osmosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_"Reverse Osmosis water is...chemically unstable and acidic..."_

So RO causes a change in ph and hardness, etc? If that is true, then I wonder how this is safe to use in vivariums for misting plants and enclosures? Is this acidic water not harmful to the plants and animals, especially amphibians? I recall reading a thread a while back where somebody had some aquatic plants in pure RO water and the plants died... And the questions keep coming, sorry guys, I just really want to understand everything. If you don't want to go into the details I'd be open to links to specific threads or articles that might help me with these new questions

p.s. Ed beat me to the punch posting that link about the RO/Distilled myth...since I read it 2 times recently I was about to link it up in reply to the other comment about sucking minerals from the frogs..


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

RO, and to a greater extent RODI water, has next to no buffering capacity - so I wouldn't say that its acidic (low pH).


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## TURQ64 (Apr 21, 2012)

No buffering capacity, yes..it'll crash to about 3,5 ph in three days at my place, without bringing the TDS back up to around 70 orthereabouts. And even then, it'll start falling to a degree. Acidic?..Yes..starts at 6.0 and falls like a rock.


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## BuckeyeFS (Dec 21, 2011)

Will assume the pH of whatever you expose it to, including co2 in the air


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flyingSquirrel said:


> _"Reverse Osmosis water is...chemically unstable and acidic..."_
> 
> So RO causes a change in ph and hardness, etc? If that is true, then I wonder how this is safe to use in vivariums for misting plants and enclosures? Is this acidic water not harmful to the plants and animals, especially amphibians? I recall reading a thread a while back where somebody had some aquatic plants in pure RO water and the plants died... And the questions keep coming, sorry guys, I just really want to understand everything. If you don't want to go into the details I'd be open to links to specific threads or articles that might help me with these new questions .


that statement is technically incorrect.... (and why teachers tell students to not rely solely on wikipedia for research)... Water in and of itself is a very stable molecule. 
The reason RO water is often acidic is because tap water has at least some level of dissolved carbon dioxide in it. This causes a reaction in which the water molecules react with the carbon dioxide to form carbonic acid with a Kh of 1.7 x 10-3. This indicates that most of the carbon dioxide does not react with the water. Since the result of the reaction depends on several things including amount of CO2 dissolved in the water, you can expect it to take some time before it stabilizes. Carbonic acid is a weak acid so it doesn't fully disassociate releasing the Hydrogen proton... 
Pure water by definition has a pH of 7 (and the rate of penetration of oxygen and carbon dioxide at atmospheric pressure into still water is measured in mm/100 years... so it doesn't suck CO2 out of the atmosphere...). 

Water is a good solvent which means that if they are free many different things can dissolve into it (older text books may refer to it as being a universal solvent but this is not correct since highly non-polar materials will not dissolve in water) this does not mean that it is dangerous to plants (although if you kept plants in nothing but distilled or RO water, they would eventually have issues with nutrient deficiencies). When discussing water quality with water treatment facilities for tapwater, the water is rated by how "aggressive" it is, which indicates the rate at which corrosion of metal pipes can occur (various materials are added to reduce damage to the pipes (and plumbing in homes) such as phosphates, and silicates). 

With respect to "acidic" water being dangerous, it really isn't a concern... It can result in some nutrients being less available to plants but with the high inputs of flies and supplements (as well as nutrients processed by the frogs), deficiencies are unlikely (and can be further reduced by using a clay substrate). Keep in mind that these frogs are found in water that has a high input of humic acids (and some blackwater streams found in thier enviroment in the dry season can have a pH below 4)..... 

Some comments,

Ed


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