# Dart frog economics



## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

I am very much interested in the future of dart frogs as a hobby. I know the love everyone here have for them but I want to know about the business side of Poison arrow frogs. As I have noticed over the years the price for most darts haven't changed. To me there seems to be a increase in breeders of the frogs. How do yall think the hobby have avoided inflation?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

in a sense you answered your own question. more breeders means more supply which equals lower prices, taking into account inflation they stay about the same. in actuality though, i've seen prices lowering in the past few years for many species, especially the thumbs and pumilio. auratus are pretty much at their low, the tincs and leucs are pretty stable. galacs are too. tricolor were really popular last year, but i really haven't noticed too much fluctuation in their prices.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

The pumilio is one of the frogs that i seen the prices drop slightly. i remeber when there was a huge hype bout them. Everytime a shipment would come everybody would have pics of there new pums in less than a month. Now I guess a lot breeders is having succes breeding them. The auratus price still good to me. I mean a perso could get one for 20$ sometimes less but since most are sold for 25 or more that to me seems pretty good considering the fact that they breed like mice.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

There have been a few posts over the years on this very topic and basically there are a number of trends as with many hobbies. What is hot today may not be tomorrow, but maybe again next year. Very few people make their living selling frogs, but there are some, and a few selling supplies.

One thing to note is that this a newer, and growing hobby so things are always changing.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

As more people enter the hobby and become small-scale breeders - the foundation of breeding production grows and will likely exceed demand. If this happens, prices for a given morph will inevitably decline to some degree. I have seen considerable price decreases in commonly available morphs in the last two years.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Alan Zimmerman said:


> As more people enter the hobby and become small-scale breeders - the foundation of breeding production grows and will likely exceed demand. If this happens, prices for a given morph will inevitably decline to some degree. I have seen considerable price decreases in commonly available morphs in the last two years.


With that said, I believe that "retail" breeders will make less and less on actual frogs and continue to see demand in the "dry goods" sector. Though I am a very new entrant into an exciting, yet complex hobby, I can see that the "market" (I hate referring animals as being part of a market, kinda seems inhuman) will be somewhat fragmented unless some sort of recording in implemented (like frogtracks?). 

People will most likely want to breed their frogs ( I know I want to!). However, they need supplies to do this successfully and to properly care for the adults, tads, and froglets. A growing hobby means more supply of frogs, but an also increasing demand for dry goods and vivarium plants.

Just my .02, I haven't been in the hobby long enough to make the assumptions and the conjectures. However, in the long run I can't think of another outcome. Anyone else have theories? I love economics, I guess that's why I majored in it. :lol:


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

stevendart14 said:


> The pumilio is one of the frogs that i seen the prices drop slightly. i remeber when there was a huge hype bout them. Everytime a shipment would come everybody would have pics of there new pums in less than a month. Now I guess a lot breeders is having succes breeding them. The auratus price still good to me. I mean a perso could get one for 20$ sometimes less but since most are sold for 25 or more that to me seems pretty good considering the fact that they breed like mice.


Sure, auratus may breed like mice, but they still don't house and feed themselves either.
One time I figured out what it costs to raise an auratus, figuring in every cost, including time spent raising them and their food, electricity, water, rent (yes frogs take up space too), replacing a light bulb here and there, etc., and at $20 each, a breeder that is raising them to a good size before selling them is hardly making a profit.

Also, you do hear of more success with the recent imported pumilio shipments, but you still don't see them (cb offspring) for sale everyday.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

With that said, I believe that "retail" breeders will make less and less on actual frogs and continue to see demand in the "dry goods" sector. Though I am a very new entrant into an exciting, yet complex hobby, I can see that the "market" (I hate referring animals as being part of a market, kinda seems inhuman) will be somewhat fragmented unless some sort of recording in implemented (like frogtracks?). 

People will most likely want to breed their frogs ( I know I want to!). However, they need supplies to do this successfully and to properly care for the adults, tads, and froglets. A growing hobby means more supply of frogs, but an also increasing demand for dry goods and vivarium plants.

Just my .02, I haven't been in the hobby long enough to make the assumptions and the conjectures. However, in the long run I can't think of another outcome. Anyone else have theories? I love economics, I guess that's why I majored in it. :lol:[/quote]

i agree with the supplies bring a major part of the market because alot of the breeders that breed alot of frogs fix there vivs up like a person would reguarly. The plants, misting systems, foods,etc would be more profitable than selling the frogs themself.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Yeah, if a guy only sold dry goods, he could go on vacation, and not sweat it...
Also, as mentioned, these goods, and food items, will always be "needed" whether tricolors or escudo are the current "hot frog".

Another thing is that some of the epip's, phyllo's, and mantellas are such prolific breeders, that froglets will often end up selling dirt cheap, just so the breeder can make room for the next round.
That could be counterproductive for sales, I hate to point it out, but there is such a thing I call "snob factor" the phenomenon that a cheap frog will sell slowly, while one that doesn't look that much different, and costs 7 times the price, will sell like hotcakes.

For example, the highly coveted mystie's...there are auratus out there that look very similar to the pics of mysteriosis I have seen...but nobody begs for them because they are auratus...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I got my first darts around 1987 and have been active in the hobby since about 1995. I haven't quite seen the hobby from the very beginning but have been around for a good part of it. Things seem to me to be a lot like they were when I first started as far as economics. The sad fact is that most people reading this post today will not be in the hobby in 3-5 years. Some will be prolific vendors at tables during that time and then will fade away. A few will stick it out and join the old timers who have been plugging away for a long time. A few of the old timers will move on or cut back. Flavor-of-the-Month syndrome will insure that common frogs today will be uncommon tomorrow and some of today's superstar frogs will be common in the future. Others will be gone and yet others will still be rare.

It does seem that top prices paid for frogs have been inching up. My perception is that people coming into the hobby just have deeper pockets than in the past. There are also more pdf specific or dominated events which also indicates some growth in the hobby. But it seems like supply and demand have pretty much grown together. Maybe some of the more commercial vendors have a different take. Only a very few vendors make any significant income off of selling frogs or frog junk and most of those have been around longer than me. I don't see any of them driving to the shows in Ferraris and most still keep day jobs.

So while the hobby and its economics do seem to fluctuate a lot, I see it fluctuating around a slowly changing equilibrium point.


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## Ridge (Jun 7, 2004)

I have always felt that if it were not for needing to feed a live food source that dart frogs would be just as popular as tropical fish if not more so.

And on the subject of the frog "business" - there are many benefits to having a small business regardless of how much cash it generates. There are some serious tax benefits to being a business owner as opposed to a hobbyist. You can deduct many of those operating costs - lighting, heating, use of part of your home, your travel, your computer, ....the list goes on. I am not trying to give business advice, but as most of the vendors already know, there are many benefits to not showing a profit at the end of the year.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

Like Brent, I also really got into this hobby around 1995. Before that, I tinkered with mantellas. I have seen prices in some frogs drop significantly. Azureus - went from $100+ whereas now people have them for $40. I used to get tricolors for nothing - literally. I got some for free. People could hardly give them away. Truncatus was as common as auratus - not anymore. Over the long term, prices have changed alot. I imagine as the hobby grows we will see more fluctuations. Who knows, if it becomes popular quickly, we might even see an increase in prices. 

- Brian


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

Alot of people that breeds and sell there frogs; there purpose is to fund there hobby so they can work on different tank designs or buy more frogs. I think that if we could feed these frogs the way u could feed fish there is no doubt in my mind that they would be as popular as fish. Only because the people that make those natural fish tanks make them look like the ocean, or river, lake, etc. Would love to combine both, thats why i have seen alot of fish keepers on here that feed there fish fruit flys and have no problem keeping darts. I just love the look of a mini rainforest in my house. I think I love the vivs just as much as the frogs


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> I don't see any of them driving to the shows in Ferraris


That's only because of the lack of trunk space with Ferraris. If it had a hitch or bigger trunk, I'd get one.



> I have always felt that if it were not for needing to feed a live food source that dart frogs would be just as popular as tropical fish if not more so.


I hold this theory too. Without the chore of fruit flies the cost of frogs would sky-rocket.

I also think that the current thread on the PA law changes factors very heavily into this discussion. Most state laws are totally inadaquate for reptile and amphibian breeders. After many conversations with Fish & Wildlife, DNR, and the department of agricultural years ago, we determined there were no requirements and/or permits required for commercially breeding poison dart frogs. Then I was talking with a veterinarian who does kennel inspections and he said that I may need to get an inspection. I talked to the department of agriculture again and they sent me a link to the Dr. Frye page on Frye's website and said "I have no idea, but it sounds like this guy should know". I think it is only a matter of time (another guy getting killed by his 20 foot snake) before the goverment steps in and starts regulating this hobby (reptiles and amphibians). The fees, requirements, permits, etc. could have a huge influence on the cost of breeding frogs and therefore the cost of frogs. Can imagine the effect on the frog costs if darts were deemed illegal or there needed to be high fees and red tape in say Kansas? Or Maryland? Or Washington?

The rising cost of shipping is also going to have a huge impact on the cost of frogs as this will allow frogs sold at shows to go for more than they usually will (frogs at shows IMO are always more than those online). Breeders will end up eating some of the cost of shipping to compete.

Well, I have more to write, but the wife needs the computer. Maybe I'll write more over the holidays.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

there`s a lot of in depth junk at the beginning of this post and a summary, or what`s really important at the end. i suggest most people skip to the end if you don`t like the lack of punctuation and capitals.

i used to breed leopard geckos and sell them for $10ea. i just went to a show and they are back up to $35ea. all it takes is one major producer to drop out and supply drops and prices rise to meet demand. i also see that if i have something continuosly available no one wants it. w/ shipping prices rising i don`t see anyone buying auratus anymore. i`ve shipped 2 auratus this year! i sell all mine almost exclusively at the shows and to a local pet shop and wholesale. who wants to spend $50 to ship a couple auratus?
i was one of the only people selling yellowbacks and now that the pair is gone i worry that i wont see them anymore. the grey/silver legged morph of yellowbacks i havent seen in 6 years. i`m just hoping surinam opens up so i can get some unrelated pairs of what i`ve got rid of(sur cobalts, citronella, powder blues etc). i just did`nt see any sustainability in breeding f1 brother/sister pairs since i am a major producer(my fault). what we need is people keeping pairs seperate and only releasing a couple a year. this way demand won`t force out some of these breeding pairs. if it always goes down to one or 2 related pairs the quality of the animals is ever decreasing as you move down the line.
when i first started breeding darts i would try to get frogs from everyone who was breeding them. i got mints from the original import, picked up some from christine and todd, brad murray, dave hulmes. everyone who got them producing from europe. then i found out they were all sibling pairs. it doesn`t help if we get frogs from europe if they are all related. will i still work w/ them, of course, but there really isn`t any alternative.
i see f1`s and w/c holding their price while unrelated animals from the same breeder will be more sought after. i have seen a lot more people asking for unrelated animals. ya!!!! unfortunately i don`t have too many unrelated pairs producing at the moment.
i think tank raising may change things a bit. most people see dollar signs when they start breeding darts, then they see it`s a lot of work and responsibility to do it right and they leave. usually after devalueing a couple morphs by dropping their price from overproduction. i`ve done it many times mysself. just because you produce the frogs doesn`t mean they`ll all sell at that price. then they start dropping it from 50-40-30-20. than a wholesaler says i`ll give you $10ea for all of them. then you realize this is less money and security than a job at mcd`s pays for a lot more work and responsibility and they sell the pairs and leave. this leaves a gap since they were the only person producing them anymore because everyone else stopped producing them when the price dropped to $30ea. If you want people to do this for a living and have a large selection and keep the pairs around so they don`t get lost they need to be worth enough to be profitable. someone who doesnt pay rent doesnt have the expense to do this as a business does. frogs cost less to produce if you don`t tack on heat, electric,food,health insurance, car gas website, fecals and meds, seterilites, glass misting and time. but hobbyists also don`t have the same pairs producing that they had producing back in the 90`s. selling frogs wholesale for $20ea(which i won`t get now that hobbyists are selling tincs at $20ea and azureus at $30ea) when you`ve invested 6 months or more caring for it everyday isn`t worth it. i loved doing it but i can`t, i don`t have enough time to do it. do you know how hard it is to advertise, maintain a website and care for 600+ frogs(enough to cover costs, wholesale, for all expenses) and sell/ship/show 40-60 frogs a week? it takes 8 hrs to feed and pack and 7-8 hrs there and 7-8 hrs back and 8 hrs at the show then time to unpack when you get back. we(everyone who does this at shows) work more for a show than most people work in a week and then i have to take care of the animals for the rest of the week. i love it and i have a real problem w/ authority :lol: so i do it. not many others would. i commonly talk w/ a lot of the people who do this for a living. you wouldn`t believe the dedication there is w/ the people who have been doing this forever(4+ years). if you want to break in you`d better have an in(solar power, a gas well on your property or a trust fund) because there are a LOT of dedicated people in this hobby. i may not get along w/ everyone but i respect them tremendously for what they are doing and i`ll offer my help to ANY one of them!!
i see twi and cbg and inibico and understory starting a revolution in the way our imports come in. i see the ability to have multiple bloodlines make it w/ avg hobbyists because they are well cared for and parasite free. it makes things much easier and hats off to those guys for their efforts! 
i see ff`s becoming a staple at local petshops, which is much needed w/ shipping prices, and that increasing the hobby more than anything. the availability of ff`s locally will open up the hobby to your avg joe or jane who doesn`t want to do anything but have a tank in their living room and feed them. this is the base for keeping breeders working and expanding the market to have enough $`s to bring in more rare frogs. you save up money to get rare egg feedeers from a commercial breeder who had enough money to purchase 5 of them at $500ea and sell offspring for $300ea. unfortunately, as much as i hate it, MONEY fuels this hobby. only hobbiests can afford to produce frogs that aren`t worth the time and cost to produce them with the economy, imports and changes in the stability of the hobby occuring. only money is going to save frogs. there just isn`t enough volunteers out there. 


to sum up,

it`s up to local hobbyists to get inibico,understory and sndf farm raised (or other w/c or f/r, not smuggled) to establish pairs in each locality that are unrelated. this lets you sell to people as pets and sell ff`s to keep shipping costs down for new people getting into the hobby. you can progress the hobby and also have your own bloodlines. if you breed the easier lower priced animals locally this makes money for you guys/gals to spend on shipping and getting the harder to breed rarer species. shipping prices are only going up. only produce enough to allow for what`s wanted. have 1 "in" frog that is easy to care for and colorful and plentiful. ff`s and frogs are the only 2 things you need to do to make decent money IF you work w/ a local petshop and don`t overbreed your frogs and your near a big city. ship to nearby shops if noone is and there is a big petshop nearby. it`s a pyramid which builds on MONEY and needs to be thought of and organized while it`s being built if it is to be sustained. Trade w/ someone on the other coast who has a lot of different frogs than you breed. this will increase your "list" of whats available. when you support the people breeding the more expensive rarer frogs they should support things like twi which fuels the import and saving of more frogs. donate to twi if you make money on selling frogs cheap or expensive. keep around a couple w/c f/r frogs just for pets. save them up for future breeding projects as untapped genetics. we need a central organization to work w/ the government(to keep from being under the scrutiny of local laws) and other countries to try to do what we can to save them in the wild too. get the word out there about twi and other organizations and sources. support frogtracks.com. this will sustain the economics involved and sustain the genetics too.
i`m not trying to up my business, i can and will make a living by breeding pets (geckos, chameleons, etc.) and i see my changes as needed for the hobby to sustain itself. i wasn`t doing it right. if there is always competition w/in the hobby and no donationss to groups like twi there isn`t a future for the hobby or business of breeding and keeping darts as i see it.
just my thoughts from what i`ve seen over the years.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Aaron,
You may need to highlight the "junk" in that post because I can't find it. That was excellent and helped me to distill some of my own views of the situation which have been difficult to grasp. Basically, commercially viable frogs remain stable in the hobby (there is a reason azureus have never faded) because the commercial breeders are running on a business model ensures the maintenance of those animals. But when animals proliferate in the hobby collections and drive prices down, then it fall to the hobbyists to maintain those populations. That's where instability sets in because there is no organization to the hobby and hobbyists come and go rapidly. Once common animals become scarce and, if we are lucky, gain commercial viability to be picked up by the more stable commercial breeders again. Infused in this are a few exceptional non-commercial breeders such as Todd and Christine, and Tor who maintain populations for the long haul and provide stability for the number of populations they can bear to sustain. Part of the Amphibian Steward Network of TWI is designed to provide some stability for these non-commercially viable animals. Tier 1 of the program will provide breeding guidelines and pedigree trackigg for any legally held captive populations in existence. Tier 2 uses a prioritization scheme to identify populations believed to be at risk of being lost and will provide guidance for restoring those populations to a stable, Tier 1 status. 

For example, suppose blue jeans pumilio is listed as Tier 2 because only 3 active breeding groups can be found in private collections which are producing very low numbers of offspring. So a species management team would post recommendations for restoring that population. One obvious recommendation would be to establish addtional breeding groups and the team may beginning screening for suitable stewards likely to have a high probability of success with those animals. Once those stewards are located, the stewards with surplus blue jeans would be encouraged to place animals with those qualified stewards. Hopefully many of these exchanges will done on a breeding loan basis to take money and affordability out of the equation. It would be up the source and recipient stewards to form the agreement because, afterall, the animals still belong to the source steward. ASN's role at this level is to provide the support network to allow populations at risk to be identified before it is too late and fascilitate management changes to bring or restore the populations to a stable Tier 1 level. The net result would be to bring stability to that portion of the hobby that seems responsible for much of the fluctuation in abundance.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Ridge said:


> I have always felt that if it were not for needing to feed a live food source that dart frogs would be just as popular as tropical fish if not more so..


I like what you wrote here. It is very true. I think if breeders develop a system to shorten the time spent preparing for food and make this somewhat automated, they could become more profitable. This is also the reason I think that many people left the hobby burned out.......


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

This is also related:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19815

Corey did a great job on this write up and I think it is relevant to this discussion. With the key thing thought being "keep what you like" I think many times people go way too far based on their lives and etc.. This may contribute to them becoming burnt out.

I do agree that automation is a big help. I can honestly say before I had everything misted and drained the work was becoming a bit much.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

^ in reference to the post about tax advantages, would it benefit any hobbyist to be a quasi-commercial breeder to take advantage of the tax breaks with hobby expenses (rent, electricity, supplies)?


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## Ridge (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes and No, there are other points to consider- 

Depending on the state you live in there are definantly some other out of pocket expenses to being a licensed business. There are also sales tax filings, record keeping and other related tasks that you may not want to undertake if you are simply a hobbyist. Animal breeding and sales can also require special permits and licensing (read the post on the new PA laws) 

There are many quasi-hobby/businesses that do this though - fantasy sports leagues, cosmetics sales, woodworking, coin/stamp collecting, animal refuges, and tons of internet based variations just to name a few. 

With any business you have to generate revenue(sales) or you won't be making deductions for very long without an audit. You don't have to make a lot of revenue and you can still show losses. I know a few people that have "real" jobs but pay for their vehicles, etc by doing odd handyman jobs(their business) a few times a year - very little income but they deduct vehicles, tools, etc. that they also use themselves. 

Please note that I am not giving advice on how to do any tax planning, only sharing some observations.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

I wonder what would an aternative be for feeding darts live insects. I dont think there is anyway to make feeding any easier than it already is. I personally think this hobby is going well and is headed in a good direction. There are many conservation efforts taking place for them. I just fee that "keep what you like" should be implemeted more. I wandered how a species could disapper from a hobby untill i read the article. It really is sad because becasue for some of people this hobby is more of a fad than a hobby.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

Cobalts average price is around 30$ when did this happen. I guess i havent been paying attention to there prices lately. There is teh auratus price range now.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I wouldn't say that is the average price...

Some people are selling them that cheap, but not everyone.


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