# Metals in a Vivarium



## cmrote (Oct 25, 2012)

Hello all. 

I have been hard at work planning my next vivarium and I had a thought. I have always liked rustic/abandoned things and was thinking, wouldn't it be cool to have my water feature flow through an old water spigot. Of course I could always doing the plumbing with PVC pipe and adapt a spigot to it, but I was wondering what the thoughts were about using any metals, at all. I'm not dead set on doing this so feel free to give me the bad news if it's just not possible. I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with using metals, and what adverse affects they could cause with PDF's. 

Thanks!

Chris


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## Frolo (Aug 28, 2012)

I don't know how it would affect your frogs, but it might affect your plants in the long term. If your water becomes harder at, then you also might have to worry about water spots.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

You should check out this thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/46410-dis-biotopic-displays-4.html


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

You probably wanna stay away from anything copper, or any potentially toxic metal...but Steel/aluminium and stuff I would think would be fine as long as it is cleaned up good. I don't know about rusty stuff...that is just iron oxide, which I know stepping on rusty nails is bad for humans but I'm not sure if frog skin coming in contact with it would be dangerous to them or not.


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## xIslanderx (Dec 8, 2012)

Wouldn't the steel just become rusty over time?
(unless you meant stainless?)



Dendro Dave said:


> You probably wanna stay away from anything copper, or any potentially toxic metal...but Steel/aluminium and stuff I would think would be fine as long as it is cleaned up good. I don't know about rusty stuff...that is just iron oxide, which I know stepping on rusty nails is bad for humans but I'm not sure if frog skin coming in contact with it would be dangerous to them or not.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

xIslanderx said:


> Wouldn't the steel just become rusty over time?
> (unless you meant stainless?)


Ya that or galvanized. 

You know, I'm not even sure copper would be bad as long as it didn't have any lead based solder on it, since we use it in our water lines (some water lines are still galvanized too)...unless frogs are especially sensitive to it or something. I don't know if processed copper being wet, and possibly having running water over it would release enough of itself into the soil to be a threat or not...now raw minerals containing the ore might likely be dangerous, as might grinding copper and then throwing the copper dust into the viv ...I just don't know.


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## cmrote (Oct 25, 2012)

hypostatic said:


> You should check out this thread:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/46410-dis-biotopic-displays-4.html


Thanks for the tip on this thread. A lot of the stuff Ed says is usually pretty informative and I was unable to find something like this before.




Dendro Dave said:


> Ya that or galvanized.
> 
> You know, I'm not even sure copper would be bad as long as it didn't have any lead based solder on it, since we use it in our water lines (some water lines are still galvanized too)...unless frogs are especially sensitive to it or something. I don't know if processed copper being wet, and possibly having running water over it would release enough of itself into the soil to be a threat or not...now raw minerals containing the ore might likely be dangerous, as might grinding copper and then throwing the copper dust into the viv ...I just don't know.


I was thinking that since most typical household water lines are copper, that it shouldn't really be an issue of leaching toxins. My worry is that any corrosion that occurs may be harmful to their skin. It really is going to come down to if I can even find something like this, that I can definatly confirm that there are no unsafe materials in it. I even considered just crafting an elbow piece out of foam, and using it instead of a spigot. Still quite a bit of planning to do anyway, and it was just a thought. I'll definatly keep it on the table for now, since it's not something that I commonly see in other vivariums.

Thanks everyone for the advice )

Chris


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed has posted that galvanized metals leach toxins.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/664407-post6.html


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

cmrote said:


> Thanks for the tip on this thread. A lot of the stuff Ed says is usually pretty informative and I was unable to find something like this before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know one thing you could do that would render most anything viv acceptable is spray it down in a polyurethane clear coat, or even clear plasti-dip spray...give it a nice clear rubber coating. Either, or both methods should sufficiently seal just about anything. If it is a tube like object you could get the buckets of clear plasti-dip and pour some through the tube/pipe and coat the inside that way to be safe.


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## cmrote (Oct 25, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Ed has posted that galvanized metals leach toxins.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/664407-post6.html


Copper is not a galvanized metal. A lead based solder would be the issue if anything, when using copper. 



Dendro Dave said:


> You know one thing you could do that would render most anything viv acceptable is spray it down in a polyurethane clear coat, or even clear plasti-dip spray...give it a nice clear rubber coating. Either, or both methods should sufficiently seal just about anything. If it is a tube like object you could get the buckets of clear plasti-dip and pour some through the tube/pipe and coat the inside that way to be safe.


I have thought of this as well. Like I said, the pipes would be PVC, just painted to look like a metal pipe. The trouble would be finding a spigot that was made out of something other than galvanized steel. Also, applying polyurethane to the inside of it wouldn't be easy, as you would probably end up clogging it. 

My thoughts at this point are, unless I can find a completely copper spigot, i'll just end up carving a old style joint piece out of foam and painting it to look real. Or... a typical waterfall instead. Still going to have lots of time to think, as I probably won't even have the tank until the end of March. 

Thanks guys!

Chris


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

cmrote said:


> Copper is not a galvanized metal. A lead based solder would be the issue if anything, when using copper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Galvanized would probably be ok...you may get some trace amounts of zinc or iron but probably nothing to worry about, and I think the plasti dip is pretty fluid so it would probably run through, and give/tear enough to let the open/close action work. A tiny bit of exposed metal, especially if it is galvanized is unlikely to be an issue IMO.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

cmrote said:


> Copper is not a galvanized metal. A lead based solder would be the issue if anything, when using copper.


I never said that copper was a galvanized metal. I did link the thread that Ed discusses the danger of galvanized metal. Yes, it happens to have the word, "copper", in the thread title. 
As far as what you want to do with that information, well, that's up to you. I'm just passing on the information.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

After spending all of high school working in a hardware store and unpacking countless boxes of galvanized hardware with "warning: this product contains a chemical known to the state of California...." clearly written on it, I don't think I'd ever want to put it anywhere near a vivarium


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Galvanized metals in the types of enclosures used for dendrobatids (and many other amphibians) are at greater risk of corrosion since the combination of water and organic materials result in water with low hardness (very soft) and acidic. Both of these are able to significantly increase the rate of corrosion of the metals. Water high in carbonates reduces corrosion as this causes a precipitation of zinc carbonate which protects the metal. 

In addition, you cannot equate copper plumbing with a new fixture as being safe for the frogs... the reasons for this are as follows
1) water companies add silicates and/or phosphates to protect pipes as these can form deposits on the interior of the pipe preventing copper ions from going into solution. 
2) old copper pipes are protected from leachage on the inside of the pipe by copper oxide deposits. 
3) you can avoid the risk of new copper pipes in a house by simply letting the water run for several minutes 

Copper above the micronutrient levels are toxic to amphibians and plants... 

There have been a number of discussions on this in the past like this for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/72310-brass-copper.html

Ed


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## cmrote (Oct 25, 2012)

Ed said:


> Galvanized metals in the types of enclosures used for dendrobatids (and many other amphibians) are at greater risk of corrosion since the combination of water and organic materials result in water with low hardness (very soft) and acidic. Both of these are able to significantly increase the rate of corrosion of the metals. Water high in carbonates reduces corrosion as this causes a precipitation of zinc carbonate which protects the metal.
> 
> In addition, you cannot equate copper plumbing with a new fixture as being safe for the frogs... the reasons for this are as follows
> 1) water companies add silicates and/or phosphates to protect pipes as these can form deposits on the interior of the pipe preventing copper ions from going into solution.
> ...


I was wondering if you could get me some refrences to this information. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'd like to personally do some more research on it to inform myself better. 

From my personal experience from inorganic chemistry classes that I took in college, I do believe that most of this is true. My hesitation however is that I believe the amounts of toxins being released into the water are far too little to cause any issues. I understand that these amphibians are far more sensitive to toxins than any humans would be, so we can't equate the safety of our own well-being when drinking from copper or galvinized pipes, to the safety of amphibians. However, I'd like to get an idea of how much of the trace amounts of toxins would be too much, and I'd like to compare this to what's actually being released in a vivarium enviornment. 

Once again I will say, I'm not dead set on putting any of this stuff in my viv's at this point. I would like to better educate myself, so I can properly take care of my frogs, and not publicly tell people that things are ok or not ok, without research being done on my own part.


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## son of a addict (Jul 3, 2009)

You can buy plastic (pvc) spigots and Lowes, Home depot and most any other hardware stores. Then you just have to paint it the way you want it to look.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

If I were you I'd use copper maybe use something to get it to oxidize so you have that cool blue rust color and then coat the whole thing with epoxy so nothing with leach out


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## Spenseriana (Sep 18, 2014)

Hi, this is my first Dendroboard post. 

I was kicking around the idea of creating a small vivarium in a non-traditional enclosure. I was looking at this and saw it had a galvanized lid. I was wondering if the dangers mentioned by Ed would still be present in this metal. 

I may not end up with this particular jar because the glass is not uniform, but I might do something similar. 

Thanks


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Spenseriana said:


> Hi, this is my first Dendroboard post.
> 
> I was kicking around the idea of creating a small vivarium in a non-traditional enclosure. I was looking at this and saw it had a galvanized lid. I was wondering if the dangers mentioned by Ed would still be present in this metal.
> 
> ...


Well if there was a problem it would probably be from condensation on the inside of the lid running back into the viv carrying with it any dangerous particles. 

Just the lid being there I don't think is going to radiate any poisons in sufficient enough quantities to make a difference, and frankly if it was a plant only terrarium I wouldn't even worry about it but if your planning an animal for it, my best advise would be to steer clear of most metals without some protective coating applied to them. 

A jar that size wouldn't really be right for much in the way of animals unless we are talking insects, or maybe a froglet or 2 temporarily.

IF someone kept a single thumbnail frog in something like that and it was well done I probably wouldn't have to much problem with it, but that and the temp froglet tank scenario, or just for plants are about the only reasons I see for an enclosure of that size.

But basic advice would be to steer clear of metals especially if they will be in contact with moisture in the air, or soil and that potentially polluted water could find its way back into the enclosed environment.


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## Spenseriana (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks for the quick response, Dave. Yeah a thumbnail was what I was thinking. However, I'm not sure it would be fair to the frog to keep it alone, so I'm not going to go with an enclosure that small. Thanks for the ethical honesty, friend. Advice appreciated.


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## KingKush (Dec 6, 2015)

Would magnets be an issue?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

KingKush said:


> Would magnets be an issue?


Well the iron in them can rust... so there's that. And a multitude of coatings are applied to the outside of a neodymium magnet such as copper, iron, nickle, zinc etc... etc... and some of those might be a bit worrisome. But there are epoxy, plastic, and rubber coated magnets available though that would be safer...even gold plated ones I think. 

Also what you can do often is attach the magnet to the object with silicone, or an epoxy, and just coat the entire magnet making the surface that will be stickiing to something have only a very thin film of silicone, epoxy, or whatever you are using. 

This should basically prevent corrosion and exposure unless the item is moved a lot and the coating is worn off. But it shouldn't effect the magnetic strength to much as long as its only a thin layer. At worse you may need to add a couple more coated magnets... Or go with larger/more powerful rated magnets since they come in different strengths up to N52 I believe. 

I would think that would be sufficient counter measures in most cases where magnets might be used in a vivarium, others may disagree.

A quick search yielded this and this is where I got some of the info I'm regurgitating. The rest, if there was any was from memory  ....

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/neomaginfo.asp


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I wouldn't worry about iron rust. That oxide of iron tends to be minimally toxic in a terrestrial condition. The main thing it will do is stain glass and other materials it touches as it forms. This can be hard to remove later. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Darby (Oct 9, 2015)

Ed said:


> I wouldn't worry about iron rust. That oxide of iron tends to be minimally toxic in a terrestrial condition. The main thing it will do is stain glass and other materials it touches as it forms. This can be hard to remove later.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


This answers a question I had. I used the magnetic cabinet catches on some vertical conversions and the metal plate started to rust a little. I was slightly concerned about it. Not so much now.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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