# Shipping A highly debated topic..



## Bob1000 (Jan 15, 2014)

I will leave this box with moist spaghnum moss 2 48hr and 1 24hr heat packs.. I want the temps to remain in the 80 to 85 degree range.. Lets see what happens.. Pics posted with time and temp throughout the night.. I will bring it in the house where it is 74 degrees 2 times between now 7pm, and 10am tomorrow to simulate shipping ins and outs.. I allowed 20min for heat packs to activate.. Just to kick things off the shipping behind the scenes way (abuse)…lol I dropped it down a flight of stairs 24 to be exact.. Current temp is 31 outside..


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I'd like to see the same experiment using the Phase 22 packs...I believe there have been some comments in a recent thread about how the temps are really high for a short period, then crash...can't remember who it was...might've been Pumilo...


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

Judy S said:


> I'd like to see the same experiment using the Phase 22 packs...I believe there have been some comments in a recent thread about how the temps are really high for a short period, then crash...can't remember who it was...might've been Pumilo...


Me as well. I was going to do this myself with phase 22's but don't have the right schedule for it at the moment. They seem to be the safer/preferable method to heat packs.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

With the heat packs in direct contact with your livestock container, you are likely to see temperatures well above 85*F. I've lost one shipment of frogs during my time in the hobby (my first attempt), and it was because I put the heaters in the same insulated box as the frogs. PCM packs can usually be used next to an inner container, but you want some space between heat packs and the animals.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

There have been many similar tests in the past. For example:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/18901-shipping-box-testing.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/16577-better-gel-shipping-tested.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/16622-data-logger-data-trial-1-a.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/17493-single-digit-packaging-test.html


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## Bob1000 (Jan 15, 2014)

okay its the 2hour check time bringing it inside and the temp is 70.2.. I opened the box and used my heat gun to second check the temp, because I don't trust the digital thermometer.. Ill leave it inside for 2 hours next to the doorway with the door cracked about a 1/8th of an inch to simulate there hubs in between truck stops. Then its back outside for 3hours..


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Bob1000 said:


> okay its the 2hour check time bringing it inside and the temp is 70.2.. I opened the box and used my heat gun to second check the temp, because I don't trust the digital thermometer.. Ill leave it inside for 2 hours next to the doorway with the door cracked about a 1/8th of an inch to simulate there hubs in between truck stops. Then its back outside for 3hours..


Opening the box to take readings will release heat, and possibly alter your results. A better test would involve using a thermometer that records high/low temps, and checking the range at the end of your test timeframe.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Times have changed and technology can be your friend. Phase 22 panels are an amazing tool. I would never ship frogs without Phase 22 panels. Phase 22 panels have saved frogs that I have shipped, on more than one occasion.
No heat pack you can buy will do diddly squat to shipment of frogs lost in the mail for 10 days. Only Phase 22 can pull that off. 

You can also use Phase 22 panels to "buffer" a heat pack, by taping the two together. This can help reduce the heat spikes mentioned earlier. I call it a "piggyback pack" and use it often on bugs and plants.
For frogs I use lots and lots of Phase panels, preferring to avoid old school heat packs entirely whenever possible.


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## Bob1000 (Jan 15, 2014)

Okay the hole size in the styro box must have made a big difference.. The opening I did ws only for maybe 5 seconds and not removing any insulation, it could have released heat I agree.. But there was a high of only 72 and a low of 60.. That said, I would still be leary about shipping under the freezing mark..


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks anyway, for posting your research. Since it did not work out for you, can I share a little more about Phase 22 panels with you? For starters, did you catch where I threw out "10 days" earlier? This is particularly interesting as I just noted that you are from Staten Island. I really did have frogs survive 10 days shipping. They are alive, breeding, and living next door to you, right there on Staten Island. Check it out.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/68064-cheap-shipping-too-good-true.html
and the result...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/68461-miracle.html

A few points about Phase 22: 

1) Phase 22 panels are infinitely reusable. Heat packs are never reusable.

2) Phase panels are multi purpose. You can have ONE item that can be used for both cold weather shipping, and warm weather shipping. This means less shipping inventory required for whatever size your shipping operation is.

3) Cool weather prepped Phase panels do not add heat. Instead, they absorb excess cold. Heat packs add UNCONTROLLED heat. Phase can NEVER be the cause of an overheated box. 
Think about this. If you get your heat packs right for an 19 degree F shipping day, and they put your box in an office for a few hours, you will cook your frogs! If you use less heat, so they don't cook in the office, then they freeze on the trip.
Phase panels will instead, absorb any excess cold. So on that 19 degree day, properly applied Phase panels will basically neutralize the extra cold. When they put it in a warm office, there is no extra cold to neutralize, so it temporarily stops doing anything.
The entire time, instead of trying to add heat, your Phase 22 panel is trying to simply maintain the temperature at 22 degrees C, or about 71 degrees F, which just happens to be a wonderful temperature for your frogs to enjoy what may be their only time traveling the globe.

4) Warm weather prepped Phase panels do not add cold. Instead, they absorb excess heat. Cold packs add UNCONTROLLED cold. Phase can NEVER be the cause of an over-chilled box. 
The entire time, instead of trying to add cold, your Phase 22 panel is trying to simply maintain the temperature at 22 degrees C, or about 71 degrees F, which just happens to be a wonderful temperature for your frogs to enjoy what may be their only time traveling the globe.

5) Incredible flexibility. What do you do if you need to ship out of Colorado with an overnight low that is too cold for comfort, but the are arriving in Arizona under the noonday sun? This is not a problem for Phase panels. You prep 2 for cold shipping and 2 for warm shipping. Now you have all 4 panels whose only goal in life is to hold that package at 71 F. Two of them are absorbing excess heat, while 2 of them are absorbing excess cold. They are not fighting each other. They are working together.
This is simply not possible to do with a combination of heat packs and ice packs. They would fight each other.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Cool weather prepped Phase panels do not add heat. Instead, they absorb excess cold. Heat packs add UNCONTROLLED heat. Phase can NEVER be the cause of an overheated box.


Hmm, since "cold" doesn't actually exist from a physics standpoint, the panels do actually transfer heat. "Cold" can't be transferred. Phase change materials either a) absorb heat (energy) during the phase change from solid to liquid, or b) release energy in the form of heat during the phase change from liquid to solid. 

But I think we all get the gist of what you're trying to convey ...


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

good explanation doug and this was a good experiment. you may have wanted to kick the box a few times and perhaps run it over to simulate actual shipment lol


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## jharris08 (Dec 26, 2011)

i talked with doug 2 or 3 weeks ago about phase 22 panels since it was my first time using them. I actually set my 8x8x7 box up with a prepped panel and set it outside in my garage afor 24 hrs. The temperature in the garage was around 50F...when i opened the box the temp was reading 56F. Either I didnt prep the panel good enough or 1 panel wasnt enough...so I taped a 40 hr heat pack wrapped in newspaper to the phase panel and shipped a frog from Virginia to Seattle and the frog arrived just fine. I still dont know why the panel alone did not work for me, but "piggy backing" a 40 or 60 hr pack that releases heat slowly seems to work.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jharris08 said:


> i talked with doug 2 or 3 weeks ago about phase 22 panels since it was my first time using them. I actually set my 8x8x7 box up with a prepped panel and set it outside in my garage afor 24 hrs. The temperature in the garage was around 50F...when i opened the box the temp was reading 56F. Either I didnt prep the panel good enough or 1 panel wasnt enough...so I taped a 40 hr heat pack wrapped in newspaper to the phase panel and shipped a frog from Virginia to Seattle and the frog arrived just fine. I still dont know why the panel alone did not work for me, but "piggy backing" a 40 or 60 hr pack that releases heat slowly seems to work.


In my experience, to do it without a "piggyback" pack this time of year, more Phase panels would be required.
It should be noted that an excess of Phase panels is a good thing. (You're picturing Martha Stewart, right?..."It's a good thing.") If you put too many Phase 22 panels, prepped for cold weather shipping, into your box, it will not overheat from the Phase panels. It may take more Phase panels to do the job appropriately in cold weather, or it may take more panels to do the job long enough. So it is possible to not have enough Phase panels for the job. It is not possible to have too many. Overkill is your friend. Charge an appropriate deposit for your shipping materials and Phase panels so that you, the shipper, does not have to skimp on materials.
Anybody who wants to chime in is welcome to say that I use way too many Phase panels in my boxes. My shipping record says different. I have never lost a single frog that I've shipped out, and that has nothing to do with luck. I have had several shipments of frogs get tied up in shipping. An over-abundance of Phase panels is the best, cheapest insurance you can buy.


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> In my experience, to do it without a "piggyback" pack this time of year, more Phase panels would be required.
> It should be noted that an excess of Phase panels is a good thing. (You're picturing Martha Stewart, right?..."It's a good thing.") If you put too many Phase 22 panels, prepped for cold weather shipping, into your box, it will not overheat from the Phase panels. It may take more Phase panels to do the job appropriately in cold weather, or it may take more panels to do the job long enough. So it is possible to not have enough Phase panels for the job. It is not possible to have too many. Overkill is your friend. Charge an appropriate deposit for your shipping materials and Phase panels so that you, the shipper, does not have to skimp on materials.
> Anybody who wants to chime in is welcome to say that I use way too many Phase panels in my boxes. My shipping record says different. I have never lost a single frog that I've shipped out, and that has nothing to do with luck. I have had several shipments of frogs get tied up in shipping. An over-abundance of Phase panels is the best, cheapest insurance you can buy.


agreed 100% doug. Phase panels are not overly expensive not either. you are better off putting 3 or even 4 in a box and have them returned later on.
no point to risk a life over an extra 10 bucks that will be returned anyway.


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

do you know if there is a difference between the cryopak brand name phase 22 panels and the phase 22 panels that joshs frogs sell?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

edwardsatc said:


> Hmm, since "cold" doesn't actually exist from a physics standpoint, the panels do actually transfer heat. "Cold" can't be transferred. Phase change materials either a) absorb heat (energy) during the phase change from solid to liquid, or b) release energy in the form of heat during the phase change from liquid to solid.
> 
> But I think we all get the gist of what you're trying to convey ...


I think I'll let you and Ed play with physics, Donn. You're over my head an you'll just make me dizzy.  
I'm just trying to point out that Phase panels are a very different beast than heat packs, and they can not cook your frogs the way heat packs can.
Of course you are welcome to point out the science behind it, and I take no offense in your correcting me on that. Sometimes, the science makes my head spin, and I think my sometimes over-simplified layman's grasp and explanation can be helpful.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ngeno626 said:


> do you know if there is a difference between the cryopak brand name phase 22 panels and the phase 22 panels that joshs frogs sell?


They are identical. Just make sure that you are buying what you want. Phase 22 *panels* are my choice. They are hard sided, leak proof, and larger than Phase 22 soft sided *packs*. I have had several soft sided Phase *packs* leak in shipping.


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> They are identical. Just make sure that you are buying what you want. Phase 22 *panels* are my choice. They are hard sided, leak proof, and larger than Phase 22 soft sided *packs*. I have had several soft sided Phase *packs* leak in shipping.


awesome! thank you!


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

I just found this thread. I'm sorry I missed the past three days of it!

We have been developing our own gel packs for some time now. At Frog Day '13, we offered free gel packs that were one of our prototypes. We've continued to revise our formula and have been testing it fairly heavily. 

We have a couple of professional data loggers that we are using to test. One inside a box and the other outside to make sure the control temp stays in line. Currently the test has been in a 35 degree environment +/- 2 degrees. 

Both the Dendropack (our own formula) and the Phase 22 panels are kept in an incubator at 82 degrees, +/- 1 degree, until it's time to go in the box.

Here's a graph of how one of our formulas compares to the Phase 22 panels. This test was with 2 phase panels vs 3 dendropacks. The dendropacks occupy less box space and weigh less. 

This is by no means a comprehensive chart. This was just a simple graph I had ready from recent test that shows the behavior of phase panels. We plan on having a comprehensive report to share in the coming weeks. 









The point of intersection is about 7 1/2 hours into the test. 

Thank you,
Brad


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> They are identical. Just make sure that you are buying what you want. Phase 22 *panels* are my choice. They are hard sided, leak proof, and larger than Phase 22 soft sided *packs*. I have had several soft sided Phase *packs* leak in shipping.


Especially when USPS stomps on the package and then sends you a soggy piece of cardboard back with their, we think you might have lost something in the mail, letter.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey Brad, are yours a true Phase change material, or simply a gel pack?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Especially when USPS stomps on the package and then sends you a soggy piece of cardboard back with their, we think you might have lost something in the mail, letter.


Ahh ha ha!! That's right, that was you. I got them returned, er, ahh...slightly leaking. If a pregnant elephant had run over it in a steamroller, it would have been in better shape.
I still think you put it in car crusher before sending that back.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Mine are not a phase change material, they are polymer blend. We explored phase change a bit, but IMO, phase 22 drops in temp too fast. 

I don't want to high jack this thread. I'll start a new thread in the coming weeks with some more details and reports. We are getting close with our product but I have more testing to do. 

Brad


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

that's cool. do you know the projected cost yet? you said the point of intersection is 7.5 hours in if that's the case then 15 hours in would be double the length, putting the temp at around 54ish degrees correct? that seems a bit cold. or am I reading this graph wrong?


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

sorry if I completely went off topic with this thread! Feel free to pm me


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