# mixing species in a 60000 gallon??



## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

:shock: :roll:

Anyway though, I might be going out of the hobby/life with a bang. Not even a bang, a nuclear explosion. Looks like when I placed my order for a 20 cube vivarium, I forgot to mention INCHES :lol:

Seriously, I'm *possibly* building a 20' cube in my yard for darts. Hoping to setup either a panamian biotope with auratus, pumilio, and fantasticus, or a peruvian with bassleri, trivs, tarapoto imis and red vents, and maybe even retics. It'll be semi-greenhouse, semi-metal halide lighting. With several million $$ coming in from my parents' inheritance, and me on a academic salary and my wife on a lawyer's, I'm not too worried about building costs or ridiculous energy costs.

But I'll frame it as I built my house, complete with foundation, and 2X6 joists for a second "floor" half way up. I'll make the top polycarb, and the rest insulate, and put exterior siding on both sides. Then 1000's of watts of MH, heating, misting, rain, cooling...This should be fun, if my wife's "tentative yes that I'll sleep over" becomes a real yes...

-Solly


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Will you give tours? Make sure you put a zip-line from second floor to the 1st.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Sorry, forgot to mention that the floors won't be seperated, just sort of permanant scaffolding with the joists.

-Solly


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## *slddave* (Jun 2, 2006)

you're hardcore, I think you need to change your user name to crazy man!!


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

This is insane. Are you serious??? Hey, I know where you can get some broms for that inclosure. :lol:


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

This is as socking as finding out you have cancer! I wish I lived closer so I could help build it - if that were cool with you of course. Talk about a once in a lifetime thing. If you need help planning infrastructure you know where to find me. 

I think the biotope idea is killer. Are you thinking of introducing any other herps into the mix? Also, as sad as this is, who's going to take care of this once you're gone?


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Antone, 

We might be talking soon. Or not so soon, lol.

Mike,

Trust me, this shocking-ness factor doesn't compare. I know you were joking, but I take those jokes a little harshly these days. :roll: 

I have a brother who's an electrician, a brother who's a photographer (light help), and a brother who's a psychologist, lol. All living around here. I can do the framing, so I think I'm fairly set.

I might take you up on planning. But you don't even respond to my current PM's, lol.

I think the biotope will be limited to the frog/animal choices. With plants, feeders etc there's just not enough around to be picky.

As for who's taking care of this, I'm hoping to get a stable/balanced ecosystem that'll take care of itself. On a little seperate note, the rest of my collection will be continued by my son. (long story short, moving moments of crying around frogs at 4 AM).

-Solly


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Oh, and as for the other animmal thing, I'm not sure yet.

-Solly


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## Danyal (Apr 15, 2006)

<Then 1000's of watts of MH,>
are you sure that is a good idea? maybe some other form of lighting would be better, it seems like 100's of watts of metal halides would increase the temperature a lot and why a 20' cube? isn't that a little tall?


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2006)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> Oh, and as for the other animmal thing, I'm not sure yet.


You might need to get a leopard or tiger. Probably about the right size tank for one.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

milehigh said:


> wishIwereAnExpert said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and as for the other animmal thing, I'm not sure yet.
> ...


A jaguar would be more appropriate :wink:


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

lol, it'd certainly be the largest vivarium, but at what point does a vivarium stop being a vivarium and become a greenhouse? 

if you diden't provide the measurements, sure its not gonna be a 20 yards cube?


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

I want to see pictures. ON a different note, you have got to do this, as long as you are excited about it. That would be an amazing thing, and keep you busy with a project. I can only see that helping me, if I were to be in your situation. (and I'm obviously not). 

I hope you get to it right away. I want to see this thing. It would obviously be one of, if not the coolest greenhouse/vivarium ever. It would be the most well known greenhouse in the country! not sure you care, but i think it would be neat to know that you created it!


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Yep, I'm thinking greenhouse. You wouldn't need supplemental lighting. You would need supplemental shading, however... 

Just FYI, it is almost impossible to fully seal a structure that big. And I'm not sure you want to. Might want to account for that and put in some screening so the frogs don't escape to their doom. 

And if you need some orchids in addition to the broms, I'm sure that can be arranged... Sounds like a cool project.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2006)

After doing this, you will be an expert!

Yes, I was thinking Jaguar also. You can hold free tours behind closed doors and then tell people: "Now, I charge $20 to leave or else I let the Jaguar loose."


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## cubby23 (Jun 12, 2006)

That sounds AWESOME. I saw soemthing on TV about a HUGE biotype, It was like 120 feet high and something like 3 football fields, it wasa amazing. I think it was in Scandinavia somewhere. They had mammals, birds, and lots of herps. Are you planning for like 6' feet of soil? That would be needed if you are planning on planting large tree in there. Would you condsider keeping birds in there? Remember you need a version of the whole food chain for this to be self supportive.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2006)

How much Great Stuff and silicone do you think you're gonna need?


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Danyal, 

I wanted the 20' height to allow large trees as well as to have nice seperate biospheres for the arboreal, terrestrial etc to minimize aggression and risk of hybrids. Also, I wanted to break that 50000 gallon mark for bragging rights, and I'm limited on floor space but not height.

As for heat, I've got a couple plans, more to come.

Everyone else,

Definately no birds or mammals. Large reptiles are the farthest I'm willing to go from darts. Maybe some RETF's.

Zaroba,

I'm calling this a viv because it's not reliant on solar energy. It'll look like a house from the sides.

Biocmp,

It looks like I will be doing this. Knowing my wife, though, I probably finish planning, break ground for the foundation, and get a sudden "NO"...

In any case, I won't get to this right away. I need at least a couple months planning time; when the backhoe hits the dirt for the foundation, I want everything planned to the last misting nozzle.

Littlefrog,

I WILL need supplemental lighting. This is going to be built in a highly shaded area, and measurement at the time of day when it was getting maximum light was around 30 foot-candles. I'm shooting for around 20 times that...

I realize there's no way I'm going to seal the enclosure. I'm a stainless steel "cage" for the animals/plants, keeping the in, and also giving me a space between the cage and walls for heaters, breaker box, pumps etc...

I'll talk to you about the orchids if this ever gets to that point...

-Solly


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> Littlefrog,
> 
> I WILL need supplemental lighting. This is going to be built in a highly shaded area, and measurement at the time of day when it was getting maximum light was around 30 foot-candles. I'm shooting for around 20 times that...
> -Solly


I'm thinking more like 90 times that. I measured an average of 2700 foot candles hitting the surface of the broms mid day in the green house. :shock:


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

6000 watts of metal halide will give me ~4000 foot-candles at the bulb, but that number drops off very steeply with the distance. I'll be happy if I can have 7 upper feet of tillys and broms, and then giving way to trees, orchids, ferns, mosses, and at the bottom deep leaf litter.

-Solly


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I concur. Thats gonna be one NASTY energy bill. :shock:


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

What are you concuring with?

Around here, energy is $.06 KWH. So, 6 KW, times .06, times 12 hours, times 365 days,

is about 1500 a year. Bad, but not horrendous.

-Solly


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

That does seem awfully dim. Like a basement window... You might want to borrow another light meter to compare. 

Regardless, I like metal halides if you want HID lighting. Much more efficient than fluorescents, and I find the light to be more 'sun like' than high pressure sodium. But, with the profusion of new 'extended spectrum' bulbs out there, who knows how much difference there is between them now. I recommend a trip to your local hydroponics store to see the light quality in action before purchasing, nothing is more jarring than the wrong color light.

In a space that size, you won't see an appreciable buildup of heat with a few 1000W HIDs. I was running about 1000W total in my plant room (6x10' ish) and never had a problem. If it is a problem, you can get ventilation systems (fan based) to cool the fixtures, and keep your ballasts in another room. All these options and more are available to you, and this is where a good hydroponics store is really an invaluable resource.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

I'll probably use 4 MH and 2 HPS. I agree looking at the bulbs is a good idea, but bulbs can have vast color changes in the first few hours of burn time....

Lighting is pretty easy to do, I think. Misting is easy. Fog is easy. Stream and landscaping are harder. Realistic look coarse rain (not shower head, but real rain drops) is really hard. Hmmm.

-Solly


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

solly,
Just an idea 8) Perhaps every 6 months to a year you could invite a couple people to pay a fee and go in there with a grab bag for 60 seconds to grab all the froglets they can!!! :wink: Just an idea to help keep this thing from being overridden with too many dart frogs  


Seriously, put a waterfall in there!! It would be beautiful!


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

Solly,

This sounds like it will be quite the undertaking. Back in 2000 I used to hang out at the Amazon Reptile Center in Montclair, CA. There was a guy that would come in by the name of Rex Lee Searcy, he is the "Vivarium guy" for reptiles magazine, and has written many articles for them...Anyway he had 2 greenhouses back then with darts, you might try contacting him for some pointers, he's been at it a LONG time, and everytime I talked with him he was very cool!

Mike
http://www.snmreptiles.com


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2006)

> I saw soemthing on TV about a HUGE biotype...


*Biotype:* A group of organisms having the same genotype.
*Biotope:* An area that is uniform in environmental conditions and in its distribution of animal and plant life.

WishIwereanexpert, you might be able to glean some profitable information from these folks: http://www.plumifrons.com/Froggreenhous ... fault.aspx


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

maybe he just mispelled it.

anyway, on a more realistic note...
if you diden't specify the measurements, would they really send you a 20ft x 20ft cube? they'd need to close the roads and send it vie tractor trailor. or deliver it via helicopter  that is, if the fac was even big enough to build it in and had doors big enough to get it out


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

No Zaroba, that was a complete joke. I'm building this as you would a house, with 2X4 studs and then insulation and siding...

-Solly


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

kinda figured that part was 

why not build it as PART of your house? like a sunroom.
then you could keep your windows open all year round and have the greenhouse warming the rest of your house in the winter time. plus, with the windows open, you could listen to the sounds of the frogs still.

perhaps even put a picnic table or lounge chair in it so you can relax while watching the frogs hopping around.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> 6000 watts of metal halide will give me ~4000 foot-candles at the bulb, but that number drops off very steeply with the distance. I'll be happy if I can have 7 upper feet of tillys and broms, and then giving way to trees, orchids, ferns, mosses, and at the bottom deep leaf litter.


From what I've run across you'll be looking at 1000 foot-candles at 8 feet from the source. I'll need to dig up my data to be sure though.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Mike - believe it or not he broke down those 2 greenhouses and sold everything. 

I spent some time at his place and his stuff was very low tech. Worked nice though.

Also - Rex is notoriously hard to get a hold of.

s


snmreptiles said:


> This sounds like it will be quite the undertaking. Back in 2000 I used to hang out at the Amazon Reptile Center in Montclair, CA. There was a guy that would come in by the name of Rex Lee Searcy, he is the "Vivarium guy" for reptiles magazine, and has written many articles for them...Anyway he had 2 greenhouses back then with darts, you might try contacting him for some pointers, he's been at it a LONG time, and everytime I talked with him he was very cool!
> 
> Mike
> http://www.snmreptiles.com


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2006)

zaroba said:


> perhaps even put a picnic table or lounge chair in it so you can relax while watching the frogs hopping around.


Most definetly my dream breakfast nook.


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## Danyal (Apr 15, 2006)

when you finish this can i live in it? j/k so are you going to put something big in this? and iggy or tree boa?


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## cubby23 (Jun 12, 2006)

Yeah some snakes would be cool in there. But I think breeding rats in there would not be good, that part of it could not be self sustaining sp?


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## Danyal (Apr 15, 2006)

<But I think breeding rats in there would not be good>
definitly not, they would eat all the frogs, snakes and anything else in there DO NOT TRUST RATS i dispise rodents, they are only good for one thing... food for my snakes :twisted:


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

Finally, a reason to vivit Oregon!


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Hey, there's plenty of reasons to visit oregon, like, it's the only state adjacent to the state where Starbucks was founded AND adjacent to the state where a crappy actor is a crappy governer...

Anyway, can someone with large tropical exibit experience chime in with planting suggestions? I'm of course WAY jumping the ball on this one (hope to be planting by August 2007..) but I really know absolutely nothing on tropical plants taller than 2'.... The really big trees (10-20') are what I need the most help on, but also large ferns and bushes, and large leaved vines...Oh, the list goes on and on. 

I plan to break ground in mid-late september, and since I'm gone most of July, that leaves me about a month and a half to plan. As I said, I want it planned to the slighest detail before I even pour the foundation, so I'll be quite busy.

As I see it, there's a couple categories and subcategories to break it down into (I've got such a mathmatical mind...):


Basic construction:
[list:1klhoksn]
framing, building, insulation [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 electric [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 water[/*:m:1klhoksn]
[/*:m:1klhoksn]
[*] lighting
 wattage [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 reflectors [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 heat control[/*:m:1klhoksn]
[/*:m:1klhoksn]
[*] climate control 
 heating [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 cooling [/*:m:1klhoksn]
humidity [list:1klhoksn]
rain [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 mist [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 fog[/*:m:1klhoksn]
 [/*:m:1klhoksn][/list:u:1klhoksn]
[/*:m:1klhoksn]
[*]landscaping
waterfall [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 stream [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 substrate [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 fiberglass/expoxy trees?[/*:m:1klhoksn]
[/*:m:1klhoksn]
[*]plants 
epiphytes [/*:m:1klhoksn]
bushes [/*:m:1klhoksn]
trees [/*:m:1klhoksn]
 ferns [/*:m:1klhoksn]
[/*:m:1klhoksn][/list:u:1klhoksn]

I might actually create threads for each of these categories because I have questions involving each...Reef tank forum construction journals often get 80+ pages long, maybe this too...

-Solly


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Hey Solly,

I think this is an awesome idea! I wish you the best of luck. Reading this reminds me of the time I spent at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens. I would recommend you take a trip out there and see how they have their "walk-in-viv" set up. I'm sure you could walk away with a few ideas. 

And by the way, Oregon has tons of great reasons to visit. One of the most diverse states in America if you ask me. You can find something for everyone. Go Beavs!

Luke


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

GRRR, go ducks...NFL is better anyway.

Or were you talking about minor league baseball?

-Solly


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

At least we can agree on frogs! I bleed Black and Orange!


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2006)

you need one of these Alocasia's 8) 

http://www.centralfloridafarms.com/aloc ... ogiant.htm


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2006)

nawth21 said:


> you need one of these Alocasia's 8)
> 
> http://www.centralfloridafarms.com/aloc ... ogiant.htm



now thats a large plant!!!!


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

The thing is, I want my biggest plants to be "woody" so I can mount broms, etc to them.

-Solly


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## red_fox (Apr 26, 2006)

I'm thinking about something similar built like a sunroom onto a house but setup as a cloud forest. I'm still researching the plants that I would put in something like that. Thus far in addition to the various bromeliads and Orchids the trees I was thinking about were various figs, also consider bananas, heliconia, ginger, and many aroids. I came into this part of gardening from tropicals so alot of the plants we use in terrariums are small or miniature versions of bigger plants. I'm sure that the people here will be very happy to help suggest other and more specific planting suggestions.


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## cubby23 (Jun 12, 2006)

There are versions of drawf banana trees readily available that stay are around 12ft. Also some meyer lemons would probably be nice. Also to have secure temps, humidity, and o 100% prevent escapes you should use a double door system.


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

Solly if you can provide beer and shelter at night I know myself and about six other college boys who can throw some labor into this project.


Danny


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## dustin_grey (Mar 8, 2006)

I live like... MAYBE 10 minutes away from the Henry Doorly Zoo in Omaha Nebraska. Have you ever been there and seen the jungle? It's pretty incredible, especially walking along the paths and have little monkeys come up to you just to touch your hand and go running off. Next time I'm there Ill take some pictures, they may be good inspiration. This jungle is absolutely huge!


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

atleast get a rubber, a yucca, and some peace lillys.

http://www.mgonline.com/
has info and care instructions for many tropical plants
they also sell them aswell.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2006)

if you builf it out of wood, are you planning on framing it like a house, what will the walls be? plywood? not sheetrock i hope, but mainly im wondering what you will coat them with to keep them from rotting away. 

ive been thinking of turning my screened porch into a green house/vivarium, but i cant figure out what i could use to 'seal' the wood that is currently the outside of my house.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Both sides (interior and exterior) will be sided with something I'm blanking on the name of now. It looks like wood, but is made of concrete, is very easy to work with, and doesn't rot.

-Solly


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

*house*

You are probably thinking of hardy board. If you have any questions about building I would be glad to help. I am a home builder/ ex-electrician.
Jason


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> Hey, there's plenty of reasons to visit oregon, like, it's the only state adjacent to the state where Starbucks was founded AND adjacent to the state where a crappy actor is a crappy governer...
> 
> ...
> 
> -Solly


HAHAHAHA good one!

Actually, I have family in Oregon. Beautiful place!


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

Sounds nasty but I know one thing that will definitely seal the wood to protect it from whatever you can throw at it, roofing tar. A buddy of mine has used it to seal everything including the bed liner of his heavily used work truck. I don't know how eco-friendly the stuff is but it definitely is industrial strength.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Yep, hardy board, that's it. Do you think it'll hold up? I'm assuming ambient humidity of 80 or so and then niches in plants, leaf litter etc for 100% loving frogs.

-Solly


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Will the hardy board be safe for frogs ???

Also, I believe yuccas are not native to tropics , they are a temperate Genera of plants ( Someone chime in if Im rong ).


SOLLY THIS SOUNDS AWESOME !

TODD


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Solly, I have a question. With a viv this large you are going to have to deal with one HELL of a lot of bugs. Not only the ones you put in as food but the ones that manage to find their way in on their own. Would this not be the same thing that exists in the wild? Lots of bugs breeding and existing and eating the plants and getting eaten by the frogs thus going back to being poison frogs once again? Can this be avoided with such a large viv? Zoos must avoid it some how. Just a thought.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Uh, what's the problem? As I see it,

bugs eat plants

turns into dart food

turns into energy+poop

turns into plants

turns into bugs etc.

I'm hoping it'll balance itself out. If not, I'll help the weaker stages to _make_ it balance out.

-Solly


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Time to start planning this f--ker...

I'll plan each of these sections in posts within this thread, and then add pics where relevant once I build the thing.

*Basic construction:*

Framing, building, and insulation

First, the frame. 2X4 studs, 4X4 corners. Can someone help me plan between footers (and then just a concrete slab floor) or a full on foundation? Anchor bolts attach 4X6's to the footers/foundation, and then the studs to that.

Siding: outside, certainly hardyboard. Inside, either hardy board or epoxy coated plywood (views on this??).

Roof: 10 mm twin wall polycarbonate. Good insulation, good light penetration.

Insulation: either fiberglass or solid sheet foam. Views on this?

Inside cage: 1X4's with SS mesh. Will be sunk 4 feet on one side, and 4 feet from top. (so actual froggy dims are 16X20X16'). Room for heaters, pumps, lights etc.

The biggest question I have now, is footers vs foundtaion. Jason, that means you.

-Solly


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

Steve, 
i think your question was pertaining to the Dart frogs actually regaining their toxins? if this is the case i dont think Solly has a problem. from my understanding the darts arent poisonous just because of a varied diet. its because of some specific toxic species that are within their range and diet. personally i wouldnt worry that the native insects (to Oregan) would have the same chemical make up as insects from south america.


Solly,
foundation or slab? i think depepnds on how much substrate, water, plants, stone, and wood you are wanting to hold. in the condos we build, live loads are figured at about 50 pounds for square foot. sometimes this exceeded and is achieved with beams, or it can be acheved with just a slab. with the regular 50 pounds per square foot, you can handle it easily wiht a slab, depepnding on what is beneath it. in extra heavy situations im a fan of the thickened slab, but it really depends _how much_ extra heavy of an area, like large water features with big stone waterfalls would be pretty darn heavy. if you plan out something like this some sort of footer or beam may be in order in this area. 

also, what type of ground will you have beneath it?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

Solly ~ A *great* book for hobby greenhouses is NRAES 137. I would highly suggest finding a copy of it and looking through it. They talk about heating, cooling, watering, structures, other considerations... it's a great book. I know you aren't really building a greenhouse persay, but the book might prove to be helpful.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Landon, the ground is soft, but not clay or anything, around 4000-5000 pounds per square foot.

I'm thinking of doing this http://www.quikrete.com/diy/ConcreteFoundations.html

The cold weather one. I forgot to mention that I did not build the house from the ground up, only added two stories to it, so I'm new to this end of things.

I'll take a look at that book, milehigh.

-Solly


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

Here`s a link you might find interessting:

http://www.plumifrons.com/

They have a "greenhouse" for their frogs. 

Greetings from Germany
Andreas


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> Landon, the ground is soft, but not clay or anything, around 4000-5000 pounds per square foot.
> 
> 
> -Solly


i didnt get to check the link you posted and im heading out of work right now. ill do some figuring tonight or tommorrow and see what thickness of a slab youd need to go with if you go with conventional concrete. i should have time then to check out the link also.....


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

No offence intended, but screw the math and build the foundation! The foundation is the most important thing in my opinion-if you dont want to deal with cracked slabs in a few years and a couple good rains. 

Im sure a 5 inch slab could hold up fine- if you pull out some of that soft dirt and replace it with some good class 1 base, but why risk a disaster to save a few bucks-- I vote foundation. 


This is awesome Solly!

Frank


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Well, if I choose to build a foundation, will someone give a link describing just how one does this?

-Solly


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## Mark Forman (Jul 19, 2005)

I knew someone that did this just not that big. He had a ( green house ) that was 6 ft long X 2 ft wide X 4 ft high. Not really big but it did the job. He had red eye tree frogs in it he also had Tri colors in it that bred like crazy. A small pool of water that was made of cement made a nice pond for the frogs. Every time you can in the green house the frogs would all jump into the pond. I thought it was strange at first but they took cover in the pond. The green house wasnt escape proof either. But the frogs never seemed to leave. There was a trail of small black ants that lived in their or just passed through but the frogs would line up and eat them. Anyway sounds cool make sure you post pics each step of the way.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2006)

*hmm*

seems like you have everything planned out; my only worry is the trees, assuming you will be building false tree. have you tried contacting some of the dutch vivarium specialist to see what they use. also because of the size of this thing it would seem logical that a local zoo would actually be intrested in helping. especially with the design process as they would have significant experience and contacts in this area, plus it could be seen as an act of conservation, in which the best intrest of the animals is priority 1. maybe not the zoo itself but perhaps some the herp specialists. since money does not seem to be an issue, and you certainly dont want to rush into this, it would be prudent to contact people who are in the buisness of building large rainforest enclosures. im sure their help would not take away from the satisfaction involved in building it yourself. also i would go with the peruvian jungle, and throw some egg feeders in for good measure.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

The problem is that for reasons I don't really want to get into now, I basically *have* to get this thing up and running by about August-September 2007.

Bringing other people into it would slow me down, I think.

-Solly


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

*well*

well at least try a local zoo, i mean you have a year. construction wouldn't take long (my dad is a developer and he builds whole condos in 3 months, from foundation to carpet). personally, with the experiance i have i would build the whole thing out of concrete block, with a poured concreat foundation and pad. this would be the easiest, save money, plus it would help controle the temp. this could easily be done in 2-3 weeks. having the actual structure subcontracted would give you ample time to work on the design aspect yourself. about the concrete block there are plenty of "paints" such as drylock which would keep moisture in while COMPLETELY sealing the enclosure off. to sumerise my point, you should have the actual structure contracted with a professional block layer, and then you and whoever you wish to consult (preferable somone who specializes in this) could work out the viv design. also make 2 rooms, one for all water pumps, electric, heating and air, food, and anything else you could think of, and another as the actual vivarium. you shouldnt frame this with 2x4 as it would be very expensive, high risk of mold/rot, and you would have to figure out how to seal everything off. again i have tons of experiance in building beening around it my whole life (may go into buisness with my dad after school) nd would be willing to draw up plans and help in any way.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

*a thought*

thinking about it being so tall, in the extra room i purpose you make a 2nd story veiwing room looking into the frog room. you could have a large peice of glass running the width of the enclosure. you could also do this on the 1st level. possibly make it mirrored glass as not to distureb the frogs and give them the feel of an even larger space (this would also help with lighting). also i would go with 20x20x30


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

No, I want the extra room for frog space. Which dimension were you proposing 30'? I'm definetely doing 20X20 floor, but might think about a change in height.

Since you're in the building business, can you give me some info on foundations (how to pour them, types etc)?

-Solly


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

20w20h30L. well you need to rent a bobcat to dig out the footers. its preatty easy. just dig em 3 feet deep and 2 feet wide. maybe 4 deep and 2 wide. either way its cake. then you just bring in the concrete and pour it in.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

*oh yeah*

you'll need to run rubarbe through the footers to attatch to the foundation. this is steal rods about 1/2 inch thick. pad only needs to be about 6 inches thick, but i would ask a specialist on that cuz im not exactly sure. lay gravel, make a plywood frame and pour your pad. then you begin to build up the walls with the concrete block. the dimensions will end up being about 24x24 inorder to keep the interior size 20x20, you would obviousl have to make the footers this wandL.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

Keeping it square will help minimize heating/cooling needs.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

*ohh*

ohh yeah you probally would have to make a frame for the pad, just dig down about a foot so you could use the surrounding soil as the frame like the footers. that would make the footers at a depth of 4 feet, with 3 feet of concrete.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Studunn, I'm not sure I'm visualizing what you're saying. Can you elaborate or sketch it, please?

-Solly


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

*img*








[/url]

if that doesnt work heres a link 
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8876/untitled4vj.png[/img]


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## Biznatch (Aug 30, 2005)

I havent read the whole post, but from what I read it sounds like you need to get plans for the structure prepared by an architect. He will take the size of the building and pass that information to a structural engineer who will give you the size foundation you need and the amount/spacing of the rebar, also the post sizes etc. 

You mentioned your dad builds condos, so Im sure you could find who he uses for the plans/engineering and get it cheap/quick.

Also Im not sure about the location you live in but the last thing you want to get is cited by the city for building a structure without proper permits. Which goes back to getting plans from an architect because you arent going to get permtis without having everything laid out in plain print for the tards working for permitting can read (I make construction drawings for peoples yards so I know how dumb they can be). 

Seriously though I hope you get this done because that will be amazing to see.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

*hmm*

i could easily do that, if wishiwereanexpert wanted. shouldnt be too much of a problem, to work out the details.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

*hmm*

i also have several friend who are certified enginers/architects and would jump at something like this...sorry bout all the spelling, makes me look like an idiot, but i guess i get a bi...im from ky.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

wishIwereAnExpert said:


> Landon, the ground is soft, but not clay or anything, around 4000-5000 pounds per square foot.
> 
> -Solly


i dont think im reading this right. maybe i am, but if i am you are going to need some serious beams in your foundation. 4000 pounds per square foot is meaning your structure will weigh in at over 1.6 million pounds (not including the slab to supprt it). is this what you are thinking? thats a lot of weight!!!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Definately check into permit and zoning laws. Many places have restrictions on additions, or second structures...and the nature of them.

It would suck to build it only to have the city come tell ya to tear it down.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> 4000 pounds per square foot is meaning your structure will weigh in at over 1.6 million pounds (not including the slab to supprt it). is this what you are thinking? thats a lot of weight!!!


I'm not that flavor of engineering student, but I'm going to say that's a compressive load rating for the soil and has nothing to do with the structure except dictate how the foundation has to be designed. 

For something that small, envolving engineers and architechs is only going to skyrocket the cost and bring the time line to a hault. Don't get me wrong, they'll get it right, but in what time frame and at what price is up in the air.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2006)

*yeah*

^ i completely agree. all you really need to do is hire a contractor, tell him what you want and he can build the structure. basically its a garage so i dont think you would have any problem with zoning. just tell em the dimensions etc. and you should be good to go. i hesitate to say this but you could even hire someone who builds garages...i may be missing the point, but is this going to be all glass or is it going to be an actual building turned into a giant frog tank?


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2006)

will it have a background haha....lots and lots of greatstuff


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> i may be missing the point, but is this going to be all glass or is it going to be an actual building turned into a giant frog tank?


On the first few pages Solly said it's going to look completely normal from the outside, so I'm going to venture to say it's not going to be made of glass.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Yep, no glass sides. Poly carbonate (acrylic type stuff) roof, though. I really don't feel I need to get an architect/engineer/contracter involved in this, but I definitely will get the neccesary permits. I've been through it before when I remodeled the house, can do it again.

Oh, and it wasn't my dad who builds condos, just someone else helping me out.

Looks like I might break ground a little sooner than planed...More to come.

-Solly


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Sh!t, realized that if I want the 4-6' deep substrate to be level with grade, I have to sink the entire building that deep into the ground. Would a 6" slab but on virgin soil be enough? It'd be like a footer under the whole thing...

-Solly


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2006)

*hmm*

not virin soil but about a foot of gravel to be safe....you know when you seen grooves in roads where all the cars pass by, thats bc they didnt put down enough gravel.


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## medicineman (Jul 3, 2006)

Wow... I like the idea of building something this big, a mini ecosystem indeed.

I'm also planning a rather big viv/terra/palud hybrid inside my house by the corner of living room measuring 9 x 9 feet and around 18+ feet high. The house is still under renovation and it is still a long way from complete, somewhere like 8-9 months away. Since I live in the wet tropics, all glass total enclosure would not be necessary to maintain high humidity. Misting system and some glass panels 1.5-2 feet high by the bottom are enough and creatures, water, etc will not get direct way to wet the living room. Lighting will come from 7 x 7 glass roof some 21 feet high and I plan to add Metal halides for light supplement.

I'm guess I'm such a newbie with big dreams (having experience only in planted aquaria so far), I still have no idea how will I make, decor and maintain such tall cliff wall (some plants will be sticking into the wall around 2 storey high). I think of cement and sand mix as the base shape and cover them up with coco stuff... also an idea for you of one way to build it big yet strong and durable enough years after years. No great stuff and such down here... must think of another way (and read more from the forum).

Keep the juice flowing, I love the idea and keep em updated.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

UGGGGH my wife is making me choose between two long-standing dreams: This, and the idea of making a 300 gallon reef tank. Since this is a dart forum, I know where the votes will fall here :roll: but this is _such_ a hard decision....

-Solly


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

DUDE ITS AN OBVIOUS CHOICE SOLLY!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2006)

*uhh*

just a question...how does a 300 gal reaf tank compare to a living slice of the rain forest, i mean possibly, a 50,000 gallon tank, but not a 300 gal. haha build the big one first, this one, and then later you can talk her into the small one.


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## medicineman (Jul 3, 2006)

Ugh... since I love forest and I love plants... judging on how marine system cost more not to mention the more difficult maintenance (and think how the reefs are damaged when you have those corals in aquariums).. I went for 3 fresh water aquascapes with renewable plants; two 260 gallons tanks and a 20 gallon tank, all heavily planted. Probably will add another excitement with a new viv tank some 50-100 gallon size and a plan for a gigantic 18 feet viv. But I'd say gardening (as in the 60K viv/greenhouse) is just as fun and just as easy, think of no water changes and once in a while if you design it like in the zoos/aviaries, you can take a stroll and hang out in there, enjoying rainforest feel (try visiting singapore's zoo and singapore's jurong bird park to experience the best! I mean it as a must to go if you ever stop by singapore)


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2006)

http://www.private-garden.com

Take a look and give me a call (413.566.5125). We can work something out for the structure.

Btw... hello everyone... its been a while.

~Joe


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

I appreciate that, but a) that's way out of my price range, and b) I want to have the enjoyment of building it myself.

Looks like I'm going through with this folks...

-Solly


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2006)

Wow, this is going to be an amazing project. Coming from the aquarium hobby, and getting into this one...I say go with the frogs for sure. If you do a 300g reef tank, you won't be the only one. There is someone in St. Louis, that actually has a 1200 gallon or so reef tank in his basement. I've also seen on reefcentral.com a 1500 gallon reef(if I remember correctly). The frog idea will be amazing, and there is much more to it. With the reef, you have water, coral, fish, etc (maybe high tech with wave system, etc) but with the frogs, you have dry, rain, fog, plants, frogs, etc etc. There just seems to be a lot more to it. Plus, with all of the money you are getting(none of my business I know), this just seems to be the project to take on, and will be much more rewarding and more recognition to come along with this project. Best of luck, and one day when it is complete, I'd love to take a road trip up to visit. 

Adam


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

when its done you'll have to open it up to the communbity so we can all go in it


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

> With several million $$ coming in from my parents' inheritance, and me on a academic salary and my wife on a lawyer's, I'm not too worried about building costs or ridiculous energy costs.


And then you say.....





> I appreciate that, but a) that's way out of my price range, and b) I want to have the enjoyment of building it myself.


With "several million" coming in, why are you worried about a couple hundred thousand??

When you have several million, doing it yourself is not the issue, having it look good is.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

First, that's my total inheritance, not budget for this project. Second, electrical cost will be through the roof (at least 8-9 kW), and I have to put some aside. Third, I have a limited budget that was set by my wife when we agreed that I could do this. And fourth, reason b) above.

-Solly


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## Frognut (Jan 31, 2005)

Why dont you do some travel and see what you can do with the space first. I recently flew to MN to see the Como conservatory. 








Fern room with foggers








All ferns and fog








Fern wall








Lots more to see than just the fern room, but thats all I want to post for now.


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2006)

that is awesome, i wanna see more pics :lol:


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Solly... How's the planning going. 

I can't wait to see the jungle!

Let us know.

Incedentally you might want to take a quick look at this link, i haven't researched it but saw it and thought of your 'little' :lol: project.

http://www.naturemaker.com/building_a_tree/

Regards

Steve


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Any new updates?


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## cubby23 (Jun 12, 2006)

Has anything happened?


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2006)

Good question!


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Yeah come on Solly, don't leave us hangin. I've been thinkin about this a lot hear lately.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

I am in the process of a 10000 gallon "practice run," 10 X 14 X 10'. As for that, I'm having some drainage issues, and will need to connect to city sewer. 

Anyway, short answer is things are moving slowly, and I'm not updating because it hasn't gotten to the "fun"/frog-related part yet. It at this point is much more like building a house than a vivarium, so when that transitions I'll let you all know.

-Solly


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Still is interesting to know what the building pitfalls are(like the drainage issue). Let us know all the details when your ready. GOOD LUCK!!!


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Here's the basic problem with the drain issue: The plan was to just have it drain into the dirt under it---From the top down, I'd have the building, then the dirt (3') and then 2' of gravel. 

I was hoping that with 2' of gravel under the whole thing, the water would drain into the dirt. However, the dirt is pretty clay-ish, and so it's not working--the pit where the substrate is going to be is currently a swimming pool. So, I'll have to make an actual PVC drain--dig a trench from the building to the sewer, and run 4" PVC into the sewer. 

In case that's not hard enough, my house is below grade--I'll need to pump the drainage UPHILL into the sewer.

That alone is a delay, but it's even worse because I need to get city permits for it...I want this thing to be to code.

-Solly


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Wow thats ashame that you have to incur all that extra cost. I think it best that you pump it into the sewer instead anyway because I think it would cause problems with the green house sinking into the earth after the the ground became overly saturated.

Good to keep things code, you can get into a lot of trouble if you don't.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

It's not much of a cost in $$, just in time...

-Solly


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## SAFrogGuy (Aug 24, 2006)

*60000 viv*

Any news? Did you get the drainage issues solved? I'd love to see pics of what things look like so far.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

The 10000 got canceled because of the drainage issues. The 60000 is currently in the framing stages; I'll start taking pics when it actually gets frog-related. My progress on it is tied to the academic year, so I hope to get a lot done over spring break.

-Solly


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

I'd like to see more then just the frog related pics so we can get a better idea of the construction. If you have time that is.


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## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, you probley already know this, but I figured I would tell you incase you didn't know. To make your drainage system better is pretty easy. Just put a few feet of gravel down, then put a few feet of sand,(to get it higher then the rest of the area) and just make the gravel slope off(more sand at one end, and less at the other, but you can level it out with the gravel under the sand) slightly and have a drain at the corner that the gravel slopes down to.
I would also love to see how you are constructing this building also. 
Another idea is that if you would have to pump the water up to the city water you could probley put in a septic system. 

Curt.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

I used gravel to get it above grade like you said, and the whole thing was built on a bit of a hill. That was not enough, evidently.

A septic system is not legal because there is a stream that runs through my backyard, and so watershed contamination would happen blah blah blah.

-Solly


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## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, yeah I understand that about the rules.(I used to put in septic tanks with my grandfather.) Everything had to be perfect.
Hehe, you didn't say you had a stream close by  Not sure if it would be totaly legal but maybe you could get some tubing to run to the stream under the ground. I have seen this on lots of rivers, so I bet you can do it with yours, just make sure there is a slant to the pipe and your set.
Just a suggestion, Curt.


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## titan501x (Dec 7, 2006)

hows the viv/greenhouse going? can we have an update?


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

when something's that big can it really be measured in gallons?

I went to the Myriad Botanical Gardens in Oklahoma city yesterday. It's a dream green house for dartfrogs. I hope to have a project like yours or even put together something like the Myriad gardens green house.

come on with the pictures now!


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2007)

Yes  pictures please!


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## sebastiaan (Apr 19, 2007)

This may be interresting for u, a couple from holland did a VERY large viv, in fact a room of their house transferred in to viv, As i only now the metric system i have no idea how much gal that is but anyways its big here's the link the site is actually in english and if u be kind to them i think theill answer some of your questions. http://www.plumifrons.com/Froggreenhouse/Froggreenhouse2004/History/tabid/225/Default.aspx[/url]


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

Oh man now there is a project to drool over. Someone top that I dare you...make sure to post photos!


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

amazing idea im not that far from you and would love to help if you have any questions on the plumbing or just just help with labour...are you going to have a walkway into the viv/greenhouse???it seems logical as it is a 20'x20' (so you wouldnt be able to see the back from the front)but you would be suprised at how many people overlook the stupidest thingy during planning.... and as for the drainage problem im not sure about american rules and bylaws but unless your are dumping chemicals into the drainage which is obvious that you wouldnt , it seems like you should be fine to do it...you may just have to call the city and get a certified person to come and test your water to makesure....its what they do at the jobsites  
hope it works out for the best :wink:


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

i just realized that you could put in a sprinkler system for the rain but it would have to be modified because you couldnt keep it charged all the time as it would just be raining all the time...but i guess you could use a series of valves and just wait like 30seconds for it to charge and then turn it on


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

It could be constantly charged if it had a check valve and a solenoid to allow the water into the shower head.

Solly, get this thing done... like tomorrow... :lol:


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

good call i forgot money is not really a big deal here i was going the cheapest route


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## the_noobinator (Jan 14, 2007)

uh... that project someone linked to is amazing.


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

...the one in the guys house???? this beats that big time i think....
maybe you could put a goliath frog in that viv its like 12 inches body and 17 inches hind legs  
eats small mammals,reptiles, but only things stupid enough to come near it i dont think darts fall into that category to small and too fast...


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## the_noobinator (Jan 14, 2007)

yeah i think darts would be a waste of time, but you would have to find a small deer for the goliath frog to eat every once in a while.


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

yeah lol i have the same picture but mine is on a little card thing that has information on the back and it comes in a set


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