# introductions.. meet my auratas



## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

OK so let me begin from err the beginning... :mrgreen: 

I am a fish keeper with many tanks. I attempted to do a planted 'pico' tank in a standard 2.5 gallon aquarium. It was supposed to be an 'iwagumi' type of aquascape which basically means a very simple layout with a few rocks and plants. To make a long story short it didnt work out. I was having problems finding the right equipiment, the plants werent growing how i planned maybe i didnt have enough light maybe not enough current and doing daily waterchnages was just too much for me. So what did i do? i drained it but left the plants in there. i let the aquatic plants (mainly glossostigma elatinoides) grow in about 1/4" of water and boy did they ever. I didnt really do much at all to the tank for weeks, i just kpet it wet. The plants grew and got really thick and full but the tank was boring with no animals in it. Thats when i stumbled onto dart frogs. It was a friend of mine who had some azures in a 10 gallon that gave me the idea. So i purchased two D. auratas and the tank has been giving me joy ever since! That was last september. The frogs seem happy despite the confined space, however i'm concerned for thier well being. Here are some pics...

Checking the humidity????









my macro skills suck.. 









The tank is on the bottom shelf of my bookshelf. full tank shot:










Tank is setup very simple just like the layout. A 9w compact flourescent with a reflector (ahsupply), a humidity guage (which broke after like 2 weeks) mounted on a poker cut card, screen hood with a pieve of saran wrap and planted aquarium gravel. Thats it!! i bought a heater but i never used it the lights seem to be enough. 

Questions and comments welcome.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Two Auratus in a 2.5gal viv!


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## MattySF (May 25, 2005)

Nice looking frogs a lots of healthy plant growth. I would suggest a littless water and a lot more hiding spaces,. Put a pothos in there ,some wood and/ or leaf litter.


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

First, welcome to dart frogging. 
Second, you might want to open up to some advice that I'm sure will follow from a lot of members. 
A 2.5 gallon tank i s way too small. Sure, they will live in there but not comfortably. I'd look into getting them a larger, more permanent setup sometime soon. I would also advise to get some ground cover in there. A cocohut, plants, and some leaf litter would go a long way in providing hiding places for the frogs. Is the water level the same depth throughout the tank? personally I would lower that too or provide some more higher ground out of the water. I might be mistaken but I don't think it's too healthy for them to be sitting in water constantly. Good luck


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

aaron: Yes, recently the frogs jumping skills have astounded me and it has becomme clear that they need a new home. They seem happy to me but i really have no clue what to look for as far as signs of stress go. I have something in the works... more in this later. :mrgreen: 

Thanks matthew. I do siphon water out from time to time. It builds up from all the spraying, which i do with RO water. What is a pothos? leaf litter?  

Thanks also kase. I think a can of worms is officially opened. :mrgreen: I am totally open to suggestions, thats why i'm here. I want to point out though that when i bought them, the guy said they'd be fine in there. I actually spoke to the guy for a while probably an hour or so. I've been following his advice using rep-cal on the flies and keeping them moist. I also wanted to point out that my frogs like to take dumps on the glass, which i find hilarious!


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

kase the water level in the front right corner is deepest at about 3/4" which is about as deep as i let it get before i siphon some out. there are no 'dry' parts but much of the plants and substrate are exposed at least 75%


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)




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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

sorry for the crappy picture. i'm definitely going to need some suggestionsfor this setup. i just finished reading through the beginner FAQ thread, alot of good info in there.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I'd definately lower the water level and give them a good amount of dry land. I've heard stories of people's frogs getting fungus infections from being in water constantly. Pothos are a type of plant, and leaf litter is just dead leaves (usually oak or magnolia) scattered on the floor to give a natural look, hiding places, and food for things like springtails (springtails are a small organism that frogs like to eat). There are many people here on the board who sell leaves, plants, and other accesories for tanks. I sell leaf litter and a few decorations for tanks (PM if you're interested). If you need help or any tips/ suggestions for the tank your setting up, don't hesitate to ask us.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I agree you will want to lower the water leverl very soon, these frogs do not need water, and many times in tanks like that their feet can actually rot and get infected, normally killing frog.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

I did do this already. The water level is low. It's probably 1/4" at the deepest point right now. It fluctuates, i spray them a few times a day and that builds up water. I was siphoning the water out periodically, maybe once every couple of months, only when it started to get deep. I will do it more often now that you've told me about the rotting foot disease. I physically cannot give them completely dry land right now without putting them into another habitat, which i am planning.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)




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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

crazy_fish_guy said:


> I physically cannot give them completely dry land right now without putting them into another habitat, which i am planning.


At this point, I think you're better off putting them in a clear plastic container with leaflitter, some plants, hiding spaces and a deli lid as a water pool. This way, they won't have the constant stress of being wide open and vulnerable.

The tank you pictured. Is that what you currently have or plan to purchase? That in itself would take awhile to setup. I would suggest at least purchasing a 10gal. They're $9 in petland and $12 at most in other petstores. minimal setup. less water and more and more and more hiding spots. Never trust what store employees have to say. I feel they shouldn't be selling them in the first place.

Start reading up on the parts and construction thread to decide where you want to go with the bigger main setup. Pretty much read up on everything else.

Lesson: Crawl before you learn to walk and especially before you try to run. Having an inadequate setup and I'm guessing no consistent food culture before purchasing a delicate, tropical frog is a no-no.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

i've had these frogs for months in these conditions with no problems. they were like the size of a penny when i bought them. i think they'll be fine for a little while longer, until the new tank, which is right next to me, is finished and ready for the frogs. they have hiding places now, i added some film canisters. when i got home from work today i siphoned even more water out. i think in time the tank will dry out a bit in the upper areas. so yeah i'm not buying another tank. they'll be fine until this one is done.

i've spent quite a bit of time reading the care sheets, build threads, plant threads, etc.. and i will continue reading but thanks for telling me that.

I've given them ffs every day since i bought them. i bought the cultures when i bought the frogs and then just bought new cultures when the other ones were in decline. food hasnt really been an issue.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

8)


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

my mini siphon in action:


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

well my advice is not just for the benefit for the frogs but for you as well. spend now. because once you get the ball rolling, it gets alot easier.

learn to culture your own fruit flies. soon you won't have to buy flies as you'll have more than enough in the future.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Let me word this another way. PDFs should not be in "any" standing water, or full saturated substrate they can not get away from. While they are frogs they are not aquatic frogs. They spend most of their time on land, and in much of their native habits thats quick draining land. Having a small water section available is fine, but that means they have a dry place to go to.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

i understand that. i'll take that into consideration for this next tank. thanks. :roll:


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

bLue_reverie said:


> well my advice is not just for the benefit for the frogs but for you as well. spend now. because once you get the ball rolling, it gets alot easier.
> 
> learn to culture your own fruit flies. soon you won't have to buy flies as you'll have more than enough in the future.


Why should i take your advice? It didnt even sound like you read my thread. Maybe you should do that if you want me to take you seriously. I'm not saying its bad advice but basically what you said, had already been said by others.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> learn to culture your own fruit flies. soon you won't have to buy flies as you'll have more than enough in the future.


Definitely. Culturing FF is actually somewhat cathartic for me 

CFG, there's no need to get defensive about our suggestions. We've all made mistakes in the hobby and, frankly, I don't like to see those mistakes repeatedly if my advice can stop it.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

flyangler: Whats your prefrance as far as the mix goes?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> flyangler: Whats your prefrance as far as the mix goes?


The culturing media? I use the media that Josh's Frogs sells- add water and a pinch of baker's yeast and it's ready for flies. I like simplicity in my life- and using a proven mix like Josh's Frogs or Ed's Fly Meat (both board sponsors) makes it easy to prepare cultures without having to deal with mixing up my own media.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

so you still buy the mix? i was going to use the imitation mashed potatoes method. I saw it somewhere a while back lemme see if i can dig up the link.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

heres a few methods but this isnt the one i originally found. 

http://www.anapsid.org/fruitfly.html

i think it was at doyles dart den but that site seems to be down for the moment


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> so you still buy the mix?


I do. Call it laziness if you'd like - but these are proven mixes that produce lots of flies and don't have issues with molding like some of the homemade mixes do. That said, I know plenty of froggers who mix up their own FF media from scratch and I've done it myself in the past to experiment- but again, I like the convenience of a ready-made mix.

While we're on the subject of FF cultures, I consider it a best practice to make 2 cultures a week so you're not stuck without flies in case a culture crashes (and they will occasionally). Even very experienced froggers deal with FF culture crashes.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

here it is: 

http://www.amphibiancare.com/frogs/arti ... flies.html

I'm going to try to use this methd but i think the powdered milk might make a bad smell. We'll see.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I'd still suggest using one of the commercial mixes if you are new to culturing FF for the reasons I mentioned above- ease of use, doctored with mold inhibitors, etc. Once you get the hang of culturing, then you can experiment with alternate mixes that work best with your conditions.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

Not lazy at all! We all have different needs and amounts of time to do things. Many times i actually buy two cultures and alternate between them at feedings. Right now i've only got one though. I've been purchaseing them simply because i havent really been able to play with making my own mix. I was thinking about doing that parmesian cheese shaker trick in the future.

Yeah mold definitely seems like an issue with some of these. They're rather volatile mixtures to be leaving in 70-80 deg temps for weeks lol

BTW Happy birthday!


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

josh's ff media, the first one i looked at, seems good and cheap. Worth it because its got mold inhibitors. Also this is great "another great package from josh! i love the smell of his media i am going to have a bowl right now " :lol: 

I'll probably end up using that but i'm still going to try making it myself though as i already have almost all the ingredients in my kitchen (even the brewers yeast, used that in soda bottles to produce CO2 for planted aquaria, champagne yeast works the best)


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

You can't go wrong with Josh's media- produces tons of flies. 



> BTW Happy birthday!


Thanks!


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

I just put some apple cider vinegar into the culture when I hydrate it with water, and I've never had any mold... I also sprinkle some regular yeast on top of the culture when it's all settled, but mix some brewers yeast into the media.

Good-looking auratus BTW!


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words :wink: AND for the tips, Anoleo. i'll have to remember that. I always like DIY projects and i like to do things the 'natural' way. I think making my own mix might become a PITA after a while.


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

crazy_fish_guy said:


> Why should i take your advice? It didnt even sound like you read my thread. Maybe you should do that if you want me to take you seriously. I'm not saying its bad advice but basically what you said, had already been said by others.


[civilly speaking] I was in no way lecturing you or condescending you. And what I am saying now is said with respect. But how can I take you seriously when you carelessly purchase two dart frogs without having adequate housing for them and with the mere knowledge from a pet store vendor. It is clear that you needed to do some prior reading if you wanted to receive genuine concerns from a poison dart frog forum. Putting the cart before the horse with terrerium/vivarium animals is bad no matter how you slice it.

I have read the previous replies and responded with bits I thought would help from inquiring about tank ownership to food culture. From one new owner to another. 



> *well my advice is not just for the benefit for the frogs but for you as well*. spend now. because once you get the ball rolling, it gets alot easier.
> 
> learn to culture your own fruit flies. soon you won't have to buy flies as you'll have more than enough in the future.


And that was said with no intention other than motivation. What you inferred from it, I don't know. I was simply saying, "Culture your own flies. It's cheap, easy, and will save you the hassle of venturing out every time rations are low."

If you still feel the need to be defensive, then by all means do so. Again, no mal intentions. Just looking out for the frogs and the owner.


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## crazy_fish_guy (Mar 26, 2008)

you dont have to take me seriously, i'm not offerring advice. Let's call it a dead issue. I dont hold grudges and I am sorry for responding that way.  

I was actually pretty proud of my little tank until i came here and yes i am a little butt hurt from all these negative replies. I DID expect criticism but I also thought more people would've seen the positive side, that my first attempt at keeping PDFs is so far a success, and that i havent had any problems with the small tank. Also, the fact that i am here, learning, asking questions, and trying to give the frogs a better home If i was as negligent as you guys say, do you think i'd be posting this? Or even have living frogs? 

i was able to see that i was misled by the store on my own. Thats why i'm here. The first time i saw one of my little guys jump from one side clear across the tank to the opposite side, i pretty much knew what i had to do. Luckily i had a plan. :mrgreen:


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

This thread makes me kinda sad...


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## adrian72 (Mar 5, 2008)

McBobs said:


> This thread makes me kinda sad...


Why does it make you sad, he had been led down the wrong path and has found a new one that is not so wet :lol:


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

McBobs said:


> This thread makes me kinda sad...


Me too at first, but you know... He is asking and realizes now that this probably isnt an ideal set up. 

The the OP, I just want to say welcome, gorgeous frogs, and any questions you may have on your new setup (as I wont beat a dead horse with this current one :wink: ) please ask... most of us would be more than happy to give you some tips or pointers. Good luck.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Where are you located on Long Island? You could come look at my tanks and get some ideas.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

crazy_fish_guy, here is an example of actual auratus habitat:










See also HERE and HERE.



This is why people are suggesting that even a plastic tub with leaf litter and hiding places would be best. They are primarily a terrestrial frog and receive most of their moisture from rainfall, damp pockets, the occasional pool or _maybe_ a rare dip in the shallows of a stream...but for the most part they'll be found around logs and the bases/roots of trees. Hopefully this will give you some ideas and inspiration in setting up a more appropriate enclosure for them.

Also (didn't read every single post in this thread), one of the primary dangers of such a constantly wet environment is that it can lead to various infections, etc. for the frogs, the result of which could ultimately be fatal. Some of the negativity expressed in this thread may be misdirected, but keep in mind it's simply because the members on here are very serious about the care and well-being of these animals (yours included) and want the best for them. Try not to take it too personally and use the constructive comments to improve your husbandry skills and the care of your frogs, which you are no doubt doing.


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