# Dendrobates captivus for sale



## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Dendrobates captivus
Ok so who can read japanese???
ƒ�ƒCƒ‹ƒhƒXƒJƒC‚Å’Ê�M”Ì”„
100,800 yen is the converter on my mac is right thats roughly $830 each.. Have these ever been exported or is this yet another question mark in the long list of frogs that have been possibly smuggled
Brian


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## Elphaba (Aug 26, 2007)

Hi Brian, 

The description on the ad reads: "Kuroji ni aka ya kiiro no SPOTTO ga utsukushiku." And then measurements, and the following text in red: "Urikire, arigatou gozaimashita!"

In English: "Black with red and yellow-colored spots, beautiful!" or "Black with red and yellow spots makes [this] beautiful!" The red text says, "Sold out, thanks a lot!"

Best,
Ash


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

That didn't take long, did it? :\


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

It's sad very sad.. I've been offered captivus


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Newly rediscovered, and sure to be gone before you know it.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I think they're fairly well established frogs. I'm hoping they don't make a major dent while smuggling though. They will likely be legally exported in 2-3 years.

-Nish


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

These were available at the first Hamm show shortly after the discovery was published. One of the horrible drawbacks to any scientific papers that offer location/gps information for organisms.

Good news is they are doing rather well in captivity and should be established just as mysteriosus is now.

Eric


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

They may be doing well in captivity but this seriously undermines legal, healthy cb imports and future discovery of new morphs for legal, cb well established imports.
It`s a shame, but that is what happens when you publish coordinates.



EricM said:


> These were available at the first Hamm show shortly after the discovery was published. One of the horrible drawbacks to any scientific papers that offer location/gps information for organisms.
> 
> Good news is they are doing rather well in captivity and should be established just as mysteriosus is now.
> 
> Eric


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Unless I missed it, they didn't publish coordinates. They gave vague directions on where they found frogs, but given how close the initial smuggling happened after the rediscovery, I'd guess that it wasn't the paper that lead to it, but a tour guide's mouth. Watching the scientists' reaction to their discovery on the DVD, it wouldn't take a genius to see that the frogs were new, rare, and had value. All it would take is someone saying "yea, we found these little red-spotted frogs that these gringos were all excited about finding."


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

The captivus locality has been well known for years and years. This is how we found it. It's in the Myers 1982 paper and explicit enough that we found them.

Also, if anyone sees captivus for sale, do me a favor and punch the vendor in the face. 

-Evan


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

> Also, if anyone sees captivus for sale, do me a favor and punch the vendor in the face.


i have to second that. greed has no place in this hobby. its amazing what the almighty dollar can get people to do, especially those ignorant to what kind of an impact their actions can have.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Ric Sanchez said:


> The captivus locality has been well known for years and years. This is how we found it. It's in the Myers 1982 paper and explicit enough that we found them.
> 
> Also, if anyone sees captivus for sale, do me a favor and punch the vendor in the face.
> 
> -Evan


Evan not only would I do that but if he was bigger then me I would pay someone else to do it, and video tape it, and send you a copy to add on as an extra for your next video.
Brian


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Hopefully the local Indians take care of the smuggling problem.  I hear they don't like people on their land with out their blessing.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Very sad indeed. 

I obviously enjoy keeping frogs - but at the same time I don't understand the drive for people to have to own everything that they see.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

wow, that is crazy, i find the japanese to go to extreme to get everything that no one else has, this goes accross the board with all kinds of animals. The really sad part is that these articles are published with specific site locality that allow pouchers to go out and collect these animals at will and illegally. 

Are there any zoos working with this species?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Not in the United States of America... 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

how about anywhere else?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I can't check ISIS to see who might be holding them outsidfe of the USA as the ISIS software doesn't recognize the scientific name as of yet. 

Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

The same site had Veradero Imitator and Benedicta offered, they have the same status as the Captivus, certainly 3 Holy Grail species. Certainly hope Mark can flood the market with the last 2, at least here in the US....ah but likely, they are here already.


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

Surprisingly or not, veradero imitator are already being offered in the US as I believe you already know. We will beging offering them in february. I look forward to working more directly with US hobbyiests this year (and through SNDF) to make aquiring these frogs easier and a little more affordable. Benedicta will soon follow. 

I have given up on the dream of beating smugglers to the punch with most of these animals, our hands are tied by buerocracy and the reproductive cycles of the animals, not by how many we can get campesinos to collect. 

A captivus management plan is in the works, though I am sure they will be well distributed before we can offer them. Perhaps it will be best to make them available to institutions only so as not to "legalize" all of the smuggled ones already here, or to not even bother at all.

The ones offerred in Japan would almost certainly have arrived in Japan through european channels.

mark


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

D.captivus is now being offered for over a year in Germany. It's not even a public secret anymore, that's how many people know about it. It makes me sad to think that out of all the hundreds of people who are aware of this, dozens know the person who is selling these (not something that is kept secret for long) and no-one feels the need to report this criminal to the police. I personally wouldn't hesitate one second.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

MPepper said:


> A captivus management plan is in the works, though I am sure they will be well distributed before we can offer them. Perhaps it will be best to make them available to institutions only so as not to "legalize" all of the smuggled ones already here, or to not even bother at all.
> 
> mark


Doesn't this just reward the smugglers and those who live in countries where the relevant authorities just don't give a #&*!? Those who live in places like the US & Canada (and chose to abide by the law) where the authorities won't allow smuggled species like captivus will never get an opportunity to enjoy keeping these frogs, while those in places like Germany and those who have smuggled frogs into places like the US have ready access to them.

(Hypothetically speaking) I (as an example frogger) can't stop German smugglers, but I can wait for legal specimens to be offered through a business like yourself. If you say screw it, I'm never offering legal imports of frog x, as a customer I now feel like I'm being punished for some other person's wrongdoing (by never being able to legally obtain frog x), while they go most likely unpunished by the law, and unpunished by the market. Therefore, in cases like this, the hypothetical me is more likely to say "to heck with it" and go ahead and buy smuggled frogs, rather than wait and hope that you, or whoever is in your position, doesn't say to heck with it to spite the smugglers.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Catfur said:


> Doesn't this just reward the smugglers and those who live in countries where the relevant authorities just don't give a #&*!? Those who live in places like the US & Canada (and chose to abide by the law) where the authorities won't allow smuggled species like captivus will never get an opportunity to enjoy keeping these frogs, while those in places like Germany and those who have smuggled frogs into places like the US have ready access to them.
> 
> (Hypothetically speaking) I (as an example frogger) can't stop German smugglers, but I can wait for legal specimens to be offered through a business like yourself. If you say screw it, I'm never offering legal imports of frog x, as a customer I now feel like I'm being punished for some other person's wrongdoing (by never being able to legally obtain frog x), while they go most likely unpunished by the law, and unpunished by the market. Therefore, in cases like this, the hypothetical me is more likely to say "to heck with it" and go ahead and buy smuggled frogs, rather than wait and hope that you, or whoever is in your position, doesn't say to heck with it to spite the smugglers.


I'm with Clayton. 

Mark, please don't give up on the work you've been doing. Perhaps you can't beat the smugglers "to the punch" but I'm sure you understand, given the choice, just about any sane person would prefer a frog provided by sustainable production, vs. one caught and smuggled illegally.
I don't care what frog someone might offer me, if it is smuggled, I won't pay for it.
I wouldn't be particularly thrilled about paying for something that is quasi-legal either.

I can't wait to work the the orange blue imitator (and some others), but will wait as long as I have to to get legal imports.

Please keep up the good work Mark!


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I agree. 

I will only be buying these frogs from someone who is making active strides to protect their wild counterparts, not support their downfall. So, you have my support Mark.

Oz


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I thought my previous post went through but I'll be waiting for Mark. I'd rather have site specific frogs brought in the correct way. Smuggled frogs shouldn't be able to obtain any paperwork at this point being they haven't been imported. Mark should sell to institutions and specific people who will carry the paperwork so they know their frogs are from him. After a few breeding seasons, there should be sufficient in the hobby to keep frogs available and reduce the need for smuggling.

-Nish




rozdaboff said:


> I agree.
> 
> I will only be buying these frogs from someone who is making active strides to protect their wild counterparts, not support their downfall. So, you have my support Mark.
> 
> Oz


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

Thanks, and for what its worth I am in this too deep to consider quiting. I get frustrated seeing all this stuff hitting the markets, sold at shows overseas and nothing gets done about it, which was relevant in my last post. 

Regardless, the time too quit was 5 years ago, I'm too in love with Peru to look back now. 

thanks,
mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

nish07 said:


> available and reduce the need for smuggling.
> 
> -Nish


I see this often and this has yet to be supported by the Traffic seizures. Over the years one of the most frequently confiscated dendrobatid has been auratus. 

Ed


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

I can understand where mark is coming from here you do all that work to do things right and a few people pull the rug out from under you. I can also see every one else point of view but I will also respect what mark decides. He's the only one out their doing this and he has already given us some great animals that we would have not gotten other whys. I have stood behind mark for many years and I have had the pleasure of him drooping frogs off wile he was traveling through mass. He's been very good to me over the years and even though I haven't gotten frogs from him since I got back in a few years ago I am shore that will change sooner or later.
Brian


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

are there any national parks where these frogs are found? if so do they have rangers? do rangers randomly check bags to make sure nothing is taken?


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Julio said:


> are there any national parks where these frogs are found? if so do they have rangers? do rangers randomly check bags to make sure nothing is taken?


 I imagine if there are any rangers that they would be few and far between. I also doubt that if any smugglers got caught by law enforcement, that it would be something that a little bribe wouldn't take care of. Maybe we should put some sort of vigilante Dendroboard Militia together to go down there and put a stop to it all  Anybody with me?


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

Julio said:


> are there any national parks where these frogs are found? if so do they have rangers? do rangers randomly check bags to make sure nothing is taken?


I wish! The captivus locality is so remote...lets just say we were the first gringos stupid enough to go there since Harvey Bassler was there surveying for Exxon in 1929. No, there are no park guards. There are only Aguarunas indians, and although they are pretty hardcore, some money might change their attitude.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

The answer to the problem is not enforcement (though it doesn't hurt either) same as the "war on drugs"...
If everyone refused to buy imports without legitimate papers (or from well known legit sources such as Understoy or INIBCO for example) how long would the smugglers spend $ on airfare, to smuggle back unsaleable goods?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Dancing frogs said:


> The answer to the problem is not enforcement (though it doesn't hurt either) same as the "war on drugs"...
> If everyone refused to buy imports without legitimate papers (or from well known legit sources such as Understoy or INIBCO for example) how long would the smugglers spend $ on airfare, to smuggle back unsaleable goods?


I think hobbyists often forget how much of this comes down to them: Mark can work his tail off trying to sustainably collect and breed and legally export frogs...but if hobbyists are going to grab at whatever they can get as soon as they can get it (rather than having a little patience), then it's a moot point. Fingers can be pointed all day at corrupt officials, smugglers, etc...but at the end of the day, it's HOBBYISTS who are at the end of the demand chain here, and each of us chooses to either perpetuate a longstanding corrupt system or to help foster a new, more sustainable one with the types of frogs we purchase.


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

Ron, Brian, you have both hit the nail on the head. As it stands now there is a large and willing market for these (smuggled) animals across the globe, which is discouraging, especially in light of efforts going on in Ecuador and Colombia to get essentially conservation frogs out legitimately, with the markets already being compromised by smuggled animals. All of us working in Peru have been vocal enough about what is going on, yet the trend continues.


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

You guys are right, it really is surprising what a little personal responsibility can do. Unfortunately their will always be a few bad eggs that spoil things for the rest of us. I guess at the end of the day you can only hope that the animals do well in captivity and the market dries up before the wild population can suffer so badly that it can't recover.


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