# Day Geckos with Dart Frogs???



## JHicks3

Has anyone ever tried housing a day gecko with dart frogs? I am setting up a 65 gallon vivarium and was thinking about adding a Gold Dust Day Gecko Any ideas? Is this a stupid thing to do?

A little more info...I was also planning on putting a group of 3-5 D. azureus and maybe a pair of A. galactonotus or D. auratus. I know it is frowned upon to mix species that have the potential to breed, but from what I have read these species combinations should be OK. If anyone has tried this or has any suggestions for or against plese let me know. 

Also, if anyone can speak to the number of frogs able to be kept in a 65 gallon(36''L,19''W,24''H) that would be great. It will be well planted with ample hiding areas.

I currently have a pair of D. azureus in a 30 gallon viv, and although I have been in the hobby for several years I still consider myself a novice at best so any advice is very much appreciated!!! Thanks.


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## boogsawaste

To be honest it's not best to mix anything (morphs/species). Of course it has been done, but especially since you are considering yourself a novice you should not attempt it. Another thing is azureus along with all other tincs can be very agressive with eachother (especially females), so they are best kept singly or in 1.1 pairs. Of course, more experienced people have kept more together but this should not be attempted by a novice. 

If you are looking for larger sized group frogs for that tank consider auratus, leucomelas, terribilis, bi colors, galactonotus. All will do fine if kept to their own species (and morphs also), in a group setting. 

And last but not least, search "mixing" if you haven't already. You'll have more to look at than you could possibly imagine.


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## Philsuma

how much experience do you have with dart frogs?


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## JHicks3

My previous experience consisted of a pair of Tincs, a pair of E. tricolor, as well as a pair of Auratus. I had to give them up when I went away to school. After I got out, I got a pair of azureus and have had them for about 3-4 years now and would like to add a few more frogs. 

I would say that I have no problems with keeping the frogs healthy and well, however I have never had any breeding success with any of the pairs...although I have never really tried either. I was hoping that this is something I could accomplish with the new setup.

What is a reasonable number of individuals for a 65 gallon considering a 'group' species like auratus?


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## Philsuma

without seeing your viv....

You can start, generally with 1 frog per 10 gallons for Tinc types / Auratus sized frogs.

If your viv is terraced and most of the back and sides can be utilized, then you really should be fine for a group of 5-6.

Keep in mind that large group dynamics are tricky with that species. If breeding is not your goal, again, you should be fine with decent observation for adequate feeding and looking out for potential stressors.

On the mixed species idea....please do a lot more research on this forum. The species you mentioned and the quantities would not do well IMO.

The small lizard group tank has also been hashed out here as well. There are quite a few gecko keepers here, and I have bred numerous species myself back in the 80's. The tiny day geckos are a possibliity as are small Anolis species...like Bark anoles ect.

I would research the small anolis,as there are truely an animal that shares the exact same biotope.

Phelsumas......try researching Mantellas, which are similar.

Good luck with your research and keep posting.


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## kingnicky101

JHicks3 said:


> My previous experience consisted of a pair of Tincs, a pair of E. tricolor, as well as a pair of Auratus. I had to give them up when I went away to school. After I got out, I got a pair of azureus and have had them for about 3-4 years now and would like to add a few more frogs.
> 
> I would say that I have no problems with keeping the frogs healthy and well, however I have never had any breeding success with any of the pairs...although I have never really tried either. I was hoping that this is something I could accomplish with the new setup.
> 
> What is a reasonable number of individuals for a 65 gallon considering a 'group' species like auratus?


A reasonable number of frogs for a tank that size is about 5 or 6. pdf's do great with their own kind, and I would not recommend mixing them with other species/morphs. Be cautious on which frogs you put together as a group. Some pdf's do best in pairs or small groups while others such as terribilis or auratus you can keep in larger groups.


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## frogmanroth

Well it really doesnt matter what species u have, groups are good and fun!!! I know lots of breeders with groups of 5-12 frogs of one type in a tank. so have at it, just make sure you have at least about 8 gallons per frog and lots of hiding places.


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## hexentanz

Something nobody else has touched.

If you are planning to place some newer azureus with your older pair, be very careful as there could be fighting since the two have had a long time to establish things. It can be done, but you need to watch out for any fighting.

If you wish to place just a newer group together, I must agree with advice I got that there is great breeding success with 2-3 males to a female. I have this setup going for a year now and all animals are nice fat and healthy.

---
I have heard and seen of people placing phelsuma klemmeri with tincs and have had no issues. Another possible choice instead would be to add some lygodactylus williamsi.


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## Suzanne

Less of an attack on the population in the wild then the WC Lygodactylus williamsii;
lygodactylus picturatus or L. kimhowelli maybe?
you could check this site: www.lygodactylus.com


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## ggazonas

Actually recently I was curious about the idea of placing geckos with dart frogs and I spoke with a very knowledgable and respectable gecko breeder. He told me that Sphaerodactylus and philsuma are the best option, and he went even further to suggest species within those groups. Overall he said these species exist in areas similar to dart frogs or actually do live in the same regions and can be successful kept and bred with darts. 

I asked about lygos and he said you could but they need much warmer temps and will be harder to view and not as happy within the enclosure. 

Anyways he has never kept grckos with frogs but has many friends in europe who do so and have had great results with the species he mentioned to me.


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## boogsawaste

frogmanroth said:


> Well it really doesnt matter what species u have, groups are good and fun!!!


I don't know how to take this but this is not good information at all. It is well known that certain species of darts should not be kept as groups. It can be done but should not be attempted by novices (which the author of this thread admits to being), or in a smaller enclosure (especially with some kind of water feature). _Personally_ I wouldn't keep more than a 2.1 of tincs (azureus included), in anything smaller than a 75 gallon.

EDIT:

I should also mention that some frogs while being good candidates for group settings can still have problems with breeding. Such as females eating or stomping the eggs of other females.


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## JHicks3

Thanks to all for your replies. I would like to address a couple of points and hope that the author's of the comments can provide further insight. Again, thanks to everyone for contributing, I will post some pics of the proposed viv in a week or two once it is fully planted.

Hexentanz - Thanks for addressing the potential issues with introducing new azureues to my current pair. I thought about adding an individual to the pair considering that all will be introduced to the new viv at the same time so that none would have a chance to establish any territory. Not so sure now. The gecko species seem like really good suggestions, I am inclined toward phelsuma klemmeri and will have to look furthe rinto lygodactylus williamsi (suggested by Suzanne as well) as both seem to have the same environmental needs and definitely in the size range that I think would be minimally impactful to the frogs.

Ggazonas - Can you remember any of the species that were recommended within both Sphaerodactylus and Phelsuma? Good consideration with the lygodactylus and the temps...will have to research further.

So...what are feelings regarding the introduction of frogs to a new setup...all at once? In groups by species (if mixed)? Are there implications if individuals have not been previously housed with a new group (i.e. current azureus with a few new auratus)? Still not sure about mixing species, just curious about how it would work if I decide to do it? Thanks.


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## JHicks3

boogsawaste said:


> I don't know how to take this but this is not good information at all. It is well known that certain species of darts should not be kept as groups. It can be done but should not be attempted by novices (which the author of this thread admits to being), or in a smaller enclosure (especially with some kind of water feature). _Personally_ I wouldn't keep more than a 2.1 of tincs (azureus included), in anything smaller than a 75 gallon.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> I should also mention that some frogs while being good candidates for group settings can still have problems with breeding. Such as females eating or stomping the eggs of other females.


I appreciate these concerns, and as evidenced by my seeking out others' prior experiences, I am not just going to jump into mixing species with reckless abandon, as I am aware of the breeding issues and potential for fighting. The only reason why I thought it MAY be reasonable is because the enclosure is a fairly good size (65 gallon). Thanks again for everyone's feedback!


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## midget

When introducing a new pair i would introduce them at the same time after you changed the tank a bit. I also jsut got done looking at this idea i was looking at Sphaerodactylus. I contected some who been keeping them for a while, and he didn't advise not for the mixing part but the differn't humity issues. They need it slightly drier around 60%-75%. Even though they are found in the same general area as dart when you look at where there located excatly they are found in slightly drier area in a rain forest. When i have found this species in fl they seemed to like dry leave litter not constantly soaked like dart vivs, also the humity was only about 72% on most occastion. Phelsuma and mantels be a much better choice for a mixed tank as they have for the most part same needs and are found in the same region. The one problem i see is ventalion as many geckos suffer with poor ventalion it would hard to keep up th humity with that said. Try and talk to the person who made a 370g tank he use a full srceen top(sorry don't know his name) Good luck


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## jackxc925

It does not really matter how big the enclosure is or how much you monitor them, mixed morphs and species tanks have a few issues.

1) The morphs of tinctorius you are talking about putting together are the same species. However, the morphs and locales are very different. Being that tinc morphs can create hybrids, I would not recommend mixing tinctorius morphs. 

2) There will always be unseen stress, but with mixing species or morphs, they may be under additional stress in their attempts to compete for food, breed, hide, and move about the vivarium. 

3) When mixing actual separate species, you can have the same issues. For instance, all of the dendrobatids you mentioned can interbreed and stress each other out. 

4) This is possibly my greatest issue with mixing. When considering possible candidates for mixed species vivaria, many fail to consider that these larger dendrobates species and morphs often never overlap in their natural environments. This means that their natural environments are similar, but not the same at all. When you put an animal into an unnatural situation such as most mixed species vivaria, it is not going to act naturally.

You might say that being in a closed tank thousands of miles away from their natural environment will bear a similar result of unnatural behavior, but these frogs react to stressors. Moreover, if their requirements are met down to every detail, the only stress they have to deal with is competition with tank mates. 

This is not to say that dart frogs never interact with dart frogs of other species, I am saying that when they do, it is never another morph or species that they could potentially hybridize with. 

Many species can and do interact. For instance, R. reticulatus and R. ventrimaculatus live in sympatric conditions. So do the imitator morphs and their original counterparts. 

The difference is that they are not in a small glass box that makes a weaker, less dominant animal succumb to the stress placed on it by other frogs that outcompete it. causing it to go die quietly in a corner of the tank. 

Another issue I have with mixing large dendrobatids in a smallish enclosure is that there just is not enough room. This is not to say that if you added 1000 gallons that it would make it okay, but with 65 gallons you could only have six animals. Why not just do one species? 

This brings me to another topic with the geckos. A species that shares the same environment is very likely to require very different things. You are probably going to need a basking area for the gecko depending on what you get. The problem with that is that it will quickly fry any frog you put in there. 

Unless you can find a small lizard or gecko that does not require a basking spot. In addition, one that will eat similar food. I am not saying this cannot be done, but you need to be careful about it.

If you do manage to find the proper gecko or lizard, I would recommend that prior to mixing you successfully keep these animals for a few years before you attempt to chart unknown territory here.

My ideal outcome of this situation is a single small group of auratus, luecamolas, OR epididobates tricolor (which are good candidates for groups), accompanied by this ideal gecko. Again, I suggest that you are acquainted with the species you are keeping before you mix them.

Thanks and have a great day,
Jack


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## midget

jackxc925 said:


> It does not really matter how big the enclosure is or how much you monitor them, mixed morphs and species tanks have a few issues.
> 
> 1) The morphs of tinctorius you are talking about putting together are the same species. However, the morphs and locales are very different. Being that tinc morphs can create hybrids, I would not recommend mixing tinctorius morphs.
> 
> 2) There will always be unseen stress, but with mixing species or morphs, they may be under additional stress in their attempts to compete for food, breed, hide, and move about the vivarium.
> 
> 3) When mixing actual separate species, you can have the same issues. For instance, all of the dendrobatids you mentioned can interbreed and stress each other out.
> 
> 4) This is possibly my greatest issue with mixing. When considering possible candidates for mixed species vivaria, many fail to consider that these larger dendrobates species and morphs often never overlap in their natural environments. This means that their natural environments are similar, but not the same at all. When you put an animal into an unnatural situation such as most mixed species vivaria, it is not going to act naturally.
> 
> You might say that being in a closed tank thousands of miles away from their natural environment will bear a similar result of unnatural behavior, but these frogs react to stressors. Moreover, if their requirements are met down to every detail, the only stress they have to deal with is competition with tank mates.
> 
> This is not to say that dart frogs never interact with dart frogs of other species, I am saying that when they do, it is never another morph or species that they could potentially hybridize with.
> 
> Many species can and do interact. For instance, R. reticulatus and R. ventrimaculatus live in sympatric conditions. So do the imitator morphs and their original counterparts.
> 
> The difference is that they are not in a small glass box that makes a weaker, less dominant animal succumb to the stress placed on it by other frogs that outcompete it. causing it to go die quietly in a corner of the tank.
> 
> Another issue I have with mixing large dendrobatids in a smallish enclosure is that there just is not enough room. This is not to say that if you added 1000 gallons that it would make it okay, but with 65 gallons you could only have six animals. Why not just do one species?
> 
> This brings me to another topic with the geckos. A species that shares the same environment is very likely to require very different things. You are probably going to need a basking area for the gecko depending on what you get. The problem with that is that it will quickly fry any frog you put in there.
> 
> Unless you can find a small lizard or gecko that does not require a basking spot. In addition, one that will eat similar food. I am not saying this cannot be done, but you need to be careful about it.
> 
> If you do manage to find the proper gecko or lizard, I would recommend that prior to mixing you successfully keep these animals for a few years before you attempt to chart unknown territory here.
> 
> My ideal outcome of this situation is a single small group of auratus, luecamolas, OR epididobates tricolor (which are good candidates for groups), accompanied by this ideal gecko. Again, I suggest that you are acquainted with the species you are keeping before you mix them.
> 
> Thanks and have a great day,
> Jack


I agree with you it is very hard to find a species would this would work its best to start with animals in the same region and even then its hard to find one that can work. You made a good point with the basking spot, in my exp with gaint day(not that i would house with darts) i didn't provide a basking spot. Ambient temp seemed what the perfered since i never witnessed any basking even when i did have a basking spot. With that said I don't think any gecko or lizard is suited with darts/mantels in a closed system such as out tank unless its extrmely large ex- 6x4x6 due to the fact of heat, humity and other reasons, but i do think it can be done. A more realist mixing situation would be fish and dart or reptiles and fish. Good luck


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## jackxc925

midget said:


> I agree with you it is very hard to find a species would this would work its best to start with animals in the same region and even then its hard to find one that can work. You made a good point with the basking spot, in my exp with gaint day(not that i would house with darts) i didn't provide a basking spot. Ambient temp seemed what the perfered since i never witnessed any basking even when i did have a basking spot. With that said I don't think any gecko or lizard is suited with darts/mantels in a closed system such as out tank unless its extrmely large ex- 6x4x6 due to the fact of heat, humity and other reasons, but i do think it can be done. A more realist mixing situation would be fish and dart or reptiles and fish. Good luck


I do keep grandis and quadriocellata as far as phelsuma, and mine use basking spots. I notice that they warm up in the morning and cool off in bamboo tubes in the day time. This could be beacause I dont keep the ambient temp as high. But the basking spot is about 85-90 with the lowest daytime temp being about 75. Thats just my experience with them.

And i'm surprised anyone read my lengthy post


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## midget

lol yea it was long. I kept my ambient around 82-84 it was also larger then most tank it was a 55g and i lit it with CF with kept the temp up and it had a dip at night. It had many ares that were cooler and some area that were warmer.


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## jackxc925

midget said:


> lol yea it was long. I kept my ambient around 82-84 it was also larger then most tank it was a 55g and i lit it with CF with kept the temp up and it had a dip at night. It had many ares that were cooler and some area that were warmer.


that sounds good to me. And to stay on topic I should say that 84 degrees will kill dart frogs in no time at all.


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## midget

lol yea thats why i said in my above post that i don't belive any geckos or lizards or sutable with darts/mantels, that are found in the SAME REGION.


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## Philsuma

jackxc925 said:


> 84 degrees will kill dart frogs in no time at all.


 
Most likely true.

A HUGE viv (think ABG in Georgia) would be ideal. A moderately large viv of say, a couple hundred gallons and with a decent height could also produce a good result. The high temps and basking temps required for the lizard can be effectively offset by 10 or more degrees in temp, with the proper height of the viv, thus allowing for the required micoclimes....

That said...65 gallons is WAY to small to attempt the project that the OP has in mind.


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## midget

Philsuma said:


> Most likely true.
> 
> A HUGE viv (think ABG in Georgia) would be ideal. A moderately large viv of say, a couple hundred gallons and with a decent height could also produce a good result. The high temps and basking temps required for the lizard can be effectively offset by 10 or more degrees in temp, with the proper height of the viv, thus allowing for the required micoclimes....
> 
> That said...65 gallons is WAY to small to attempt the project that the OP has in mind.


yea i agree with you for the most part but i think even couple hundered gallons is a bit small something at least 500gallon and i think it be perfect.


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## Philsuma

not all small Phelsuma species are even suitable for mantella vivs either....

The Anolis / Denrobatid

Phelsuma / Mantella project would need a lot of advanced planning and consultation to have any chance of success.

I would recommend getting some advice from someone like Devin Edmonds, who has actually been to Madagascar a few times and has studied the regions and frogs there.


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## JHicks3

jackxc925 said:


> If you do manage to find the proper gecko or lizard, I would recommend that prior to mixing you successfully keep these animals for a few years before you attempt to chart unknown territory here.
> 
> My ideal outcome of this situation is a single small group of auratus, luecamolas, OR epididobates tricolor (which are good candidates for groups), accompanied by this ideal gecko. Again, I suggest that you are acquainted with the species you are keeping before you mix them.
> 
> Thanks and have a great day,
> Jack


Keeping the gecko(s) housed separately until I become familiar with them is probably the best idea put out there so far, in addition to attempting this type of combination with dart frogs in a much larger viv (at least much larger than my 65 gallon). 

With that being said, any ideas on how to proceed with the azureus? There was mention that they do not fair well in large groups, although I have seen evidence that many hobbyists have had success. I am not assuming that I will be met with the same success, but is it it unreasonable to add 3 azureus to my current pair for the 65 gallon? The pair I have now have no issues housed together in a 30 gallon, and although they seem to have their own individual territories, they often cohabitat the same hiding places (i.e. driftwood hideouts, bromeliad funnels, etc.). I have attempted to determine their sex based on the size of their toe pads...is there a more reliable/sure shot method? 

Thanks to everyone for their ongoing advice, everything is taken with great consideration and much appreciation. Thank you!!!


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## Philsuma

My experience with keeping and breeding Azureus:

1.1 or 2.1 as females will fight and stress and poor egg production can ensure.

The more room you give them...the better. The healthier they will be.

2.1 Azureus in your proposed 65 gallon would be awesome. I would certainly recommend it.


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## boogsawaste

JHicks3 said:


> With that being said, any ideas on how to proceed with the azureus? There was mention that they do not fair well in large groups, although I have seen evidence that many hobbyists have had success. I am not assuming that I will be met with the same success, but is it it unreasonable to add 3 azureus to my current pair for the 65 gallon? The pair I have now have no issues housed together in a 30 gallon, and although they seem to have their own individual territories, they often cohabitat the same hiding places (i.e. driftwood hideouts, bromeliad funnels, etc.). I have attempted to determine their sex based on the size of their toe pads...is there a more reliable/sure shot method?


I agree with Phil and would go for a 2.1 if you need to have more than a pair. 5 in that tank is not a good idea. If you take some pictures of your frogs we can give a hand at sexing them.


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## JHicks3

Thanks Jim/Phil. I will try and get some pics of them this evening and send them out. It would be TREMENDOUSLY helpful if I could get that figured out. Thanks.


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## auratus677

you could do that but i would'nt put more then 1 pair of geckos
and maybe 2pairs of frogs maybe 3pairs


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## midget

auratus677 said:


> you could do that but i would'nt put more then 1 pair of geckos
> and maybe 2pairs of frogs maybe 3pairs


I don't don't your experance with dart that was bad adivce. If you read the thread you would have came to this conclusion.


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## Haroldo

Suzanne said:


> Less of an attack on the population in the wild then the WC Lygodactylus williamsii;
> lygodactylus picturatus or L. kimhowelli maybe?
> you could check this site: www.lygodactylus.com


Lygodactylus (in general) like it warm and dry. Cool temps and moisture usually leads to a quick death with the species available in the hobby.



ggazonas said:


> Actually recently I was curious about the idea of placing geckos with dart frogs and I spoke with a very knowledgable and respectable gecko breeder. He told me that Sphaerodactylus and philsuma are the best option, and he went even further to suggest species within those groups. Overall he said these species exist in areas similar to dart frogs or actually do live in the same regions and can be successful kept and bred with darts.
> 
> I asked about lygos and he said you could but they need much warmer temps and will be harder to view and not as happy within the enclosure.
> 
> Anyways he has never kept grckos with frogs but has many friends in europe who do so and have had great results with the species he mentioned to me.


Is the person you're talking about a member on here? While some species of Sphaerodactylus can tolerant stagnant/foggy air, many while die from it. Not to mention some of the largest representatives of this genus are a mere 2.5" total length and adult size. Easily trampled by a large frog. Additionally, many of them are "litter-dwellers" which means they'll naturally occupy the same area as the frogs (down at the bottom). 

Phelsuma are a better choice but then you have the overall lower relative humidity needs (as compared with darts), a basking spot, and overall warmer temps. As "Philsuma" and others have pointed out in this thread, animals sharing a system in the wild is very different from captive conditions. Namely, we rarely can provide a large enough enclosure to allow for the niche/microhabitats that allow them to seemingly coexist in nature. The reality is, many species never even touch the territory of other species in their region (e.g. trunk anole species and a litter-dwelling sphaerodactylus).


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## massha

hexentanz said:


> Something nobody else has touched.
> 
> If you are planning to place some newer azureus with your older pair, be very careful as there could be fighting since the two have had a long time to establish things. It can be done, but you need to watch out for any fighting.


What does it mean to watch for fighting? What are you supposed to do if they do start to fight? Grab one and put in a different corner? Throw leaves and small twigs at them? Water them? Make noise?


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## boogsawaste

massha said:


> What does it mean to watch for fighting? What are you supposed to do if they do start to fight? Grab one and put in a different corner? Throw leaves and small twigs at them? Water them? Make noise?


The only thing you should do is separate them. Tinc aggression (especially female), can be some of the most intense among darts, which can lead to drowning, or death by stress.


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## Philsuma

boogsawaste said:


> The only thing you should do is *separate them*. Tinc aggression (especially female), can be some of the most intense among darts, which can lead to drowning, or death by stress.


 
To clarify; Separtation means the permanent transfer of one of the frogs to an entirely different enclsoure of it's own.....


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## boogsawaste

Philsuma said:


> To clarify; Separtation means the permanent transfer of one of the frogs to an entirely different enclsoure of it's own.....


I guess I should have added that it was permanent. Thanks for the clarification.


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## auratus677

sorry i must of read it wrong thought it was auratus not azureus


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