# In-Breeding Question



## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

Ok I've searched and read several threads on this topic, but the answers seem split both ways. We have 3 Azureus about 10 months old, 2 are siblings. One of the siblings is a definite male, he calls all the time. The other sibling was a probable female, but today I see them doing their little foreplay with her stroking his back. When I first got the frogs I thought it would take work to get them to breed, but apparently they just want to get it on like kids at college. Unfortunatley , it's a college in West Virginia (Sorry if you're in WV!). There really is no site for them to lay eggs other than the leaf litter, I have a couple pods that hold a bit of water spread around. The tank is also kept a bit dry, the glass only covers about 60% of the top in a 18" cube. I mist in the morning and late afternoon by hand. Humidity stays around 80 during the day, higher right after I mist and at night.

So the question, what should I do? Separate them? Let them breed? The siblings are 2nd generation from a member on the board, originally from Reptiles Etc.


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

Well, after reducing misting and feeding to discourage breeding, Snoop (the male) came out to feed today with a tadpole on his back. Found 5 more after sifting through some more of the leaf litter. Guess I'll have some froglets to raise up


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## Amphinityfrogs (Jan 30, 2013)

Congrats looks like you'll have froglets. Frogs don"t seem to be bothered from inbreeding a little so no need to worry about that. You just let the parents tank raise em if you not looking to breed. Or you can send the tads to me and ill raise em lol


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## CJ PELCH (Apr 9, 2013)

From what I've studied in the past you can get 2-3 generations of inbreeding before you start to notice significant health issues.


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

Yea, from what I've seen it appears to be fairly common to get a group of sibling frogs to raise into breeding groups. However, I think the consensus is to source frogs from different parents if you plan on breeding frequently. 

I'm gonna raise these little guys, it's too exciting to pass up. I was blown away when I saw the tad on his back. He hadn't been calling as much so I figured I stopped them from breeding, guess I was too late! 

I'll donate the frogs to the wounder warrior project or a school program when they're old enough. Hopefully I do it right and they all make it.


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

Ok wow, now the other frog who is unrelated, but an unknown sex has a tad on his(?) back today! I thought this one might be a female, but apparently I have no idea what's been going on in there!


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I have seen my female Alanis carry tads. Weird, but it happened!

Maybe they're just messin with ya.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

CJ PELCH said:


> From what I've studied in the past you can get 2-3 generations of inbreeding before you start to notice significant health issues.


Where are you getting this information from CJ? 

I would say that is incorrect. There are plenty of F4s, F5s, F6s ... etc ... to safely say that it takes much more than 2 or 3 generations of inbreeding to see significant health issues.

Care to clarify or list your source?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Gamble said:


> Where are you getting this information from CJ?
> 
> I would say that is incorrect. There are plenty of F4s, F5s, F6s ... etc ... to safely say that it takes much more than 2 or 3 generations of inbreeding to see significant health issues.
> 
> Care to clarify or list your source?


alright alright... no need to beat a dead horse here... we don't grill everyone else for sources and citations on similar statements, we shouldn't do it to him just because of poor interactions in another thread.


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

They're doing a good job of it! I think it's really cool that the "third wheel" is helping to transport the tadpoles from the breeding pair. 



frogfreak said:


> I have seen my female Alanis carry tads. Weird, but it happened!
> 
> Maybe they're just messin with ya.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

SDRiding said:


> They're doing a good job of it! I think it's really cool that the "third wheel" is helping to transport the tadpoles from the breeding pair.


Did you see the recent thread with the video of the Vanzos laying? The one "submissive" male snuck in at the end and ended up playing a part in the fertilization... Maybe you got a sneaky one like him in there and it's just playing its part to make sure it's kids are alright haha


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

I missed that one, I'll have to find it. Maybe the "submissive" male is just smarter! Why do all that work calling and convincing the female to mate when you can just sneak in at the end


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Found it:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94571


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

SDRiding said:


> They're doing a good job of it! I think it's really cool that the "third wheel" is helping to transport the tadpoles from the breeding pair.


It is! I've seen this with my male Tincs. One mates with her and the other transports or both. And I've seen the third wheel become the mate, down the road. This is why I preach groups and not just pairs. 

It makes things so much more interesting!


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Just wanted to share on the third wheel thing, my friend has a group of auratus and theres a male who watches the main pair breed through a hole in the top of the co co hut. Voyerism at its best, haha.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

scoy said:


> Just wanted to share on the third wheel thing, my friend has a group of auratus and theres a male who watches the main pair breed through a hole in the top of the co co hut. Voyerism at its best, haha.


That's just wrong! lol


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> alright alright... no need to beat a dead horse here... we don't grill everyone else for sources and citations on similar statements, we shouldn't do it to him just because of poor interactions in another thread.


I didn't even realize that Tom until you just said that (that the OP was the same person) & I looked it up to see what you were talking about. 

Now that i know what you were referring to ... i wasn't intentionally grilling him ... was just sincerely wondering if there was information out there that hasn't been posted before. 
No harm intended.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I asked Patrick Neighbors about this a few years ago and he response was roughly akin to the notion of that while he always tries to find new blood whenever possible, when limited to a select group, he as worked within the same line for a number of generations without deleterious effects. I assume one example of this would be his salt creek line of bastis.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> Did you see the recent thread with the video of the Vanzos laying? The one "submissive" male snuck in at the end and ended up playing a part in the fertilization... Maybe you got a sneaky one like him in there and it's just playing its part to make sure it's kids are alright haha


This is why when non-dominant males do this they are called sneaker males see for example (not free sadly) ScienceDirect.com - Animal Behaviour - Spawning behaviour and male mating tactics of a foam-nesting treefrog, Rhacophorus schlegelii 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> I asked Patrick Neighbors about this a few years ago and he response was roughly akin to the notion of that while he always tries to find new blood whenever possible, when limited to a select group, he as worked within the same line for a number of generations without deleterious effects. I assume one example of this would be his salt creek line of bastis.


people often assume that because they don't see any obvious negative signs that those issues aren't present.. One of the real concerns is the loss of variability in the genes for the histocompatibility complex... these genes code for various things in the immune system and response. As the variation is lost in these genes, the population becomes at greater and greater risk to diseases (particularly novel ones..) (and yes there are other issue such as sperm viability...).. A classic example of this is diabetes mellitus in dogs (see Identification of susceptibility and protective major histocompatibility complex haplotypes in canine diabetes mellitus - Kennedy - 2006 - Tissue Antigens - Wiley Online Library ) 

Avoiding inbreeding as much as possible is always in the best interest of the population... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

Inbreeding is frowned upon for humans, so I have similar mentality towards frogs LOL.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> Avoiding inbreeding as much as possible is always in the best interest of the population...


Sorry if I'm hijacking at this point... but one thing I have never understood is when outbreeding depression comes into play here. I have a very vague grasp on the concept of this compared to inbreeding.


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

I don't think it's possible to hijack this thread, inbreeding... voyeurism...  

I'm no expert, and I'm sure Ed or someone will chime in on it. In the study conducted here, they attempted to identify the specific population that the Auratus came from with no success. So while they all look very similar, some of the evolved genetics are different. If the different populations are bred, some dominant genes will overtake recessive ones. This could cause genes that evolved to work together to be overtaken, breaking a co-adapted gene complex. The effects from outbreeding depression can take several generations to manifest itself, so while the first generation seems healthy subsequent could exacerbate the issue. I believe the purpose of that particular study was to identify source populations so that confiscated animals could be returned to the correct location to avoid causing outbreeding depression. 

If that's wrong, correct me but that's a distilled version of what I've read on it. 



carola1155 said:


> Sorry if I'm hijacking at this point... but one thing I have never understood is when outbreeding depression comes into play here. I have a very vague grasp on the concept of this compared to inbreeding.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

i think my issue is I have never been able to draw lines and connect the dots between the academic explanation for it and what it actually means for our collections... Ya know?

Like, what can I do to prevent it? Where should I be looking for diversity? (How far away do I want to go) Etc...

Soo say I have F2 benedictas from UE... Is it safe to go with any other frogs from UE?From my basic understanding of all this, if I go too far away it can cause problems but then if I keep inbreeding them it can cause problems too. So how do I find the proverbial "sweet spot" between the two and get so e fresh blood in the line?


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

That's a great question. I know just enough to know that I don't know much at all. 



carola1155 said:


> i think my issue is I have never been able to draw lines and connect the dots between the academic explanation for it and what it actually means for our collections... Ya know?
> 
> Like, what can I do to prevent it? Where should I be looking for diversity? (How far away do I want to go) Etc...
> 
> Soo say I have F2 benedictas from UE... Is it safe to go with any other frogs from UE?From my basic understanding of all this, if I go too far away it can cause problems but then if I keep inbreeding them it can cause problems too. So how do I find the proverbial "sweet spot" between the two and get so e fresh blood in the line?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Haha you and me both...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> i think my issue is I have never been able to draw lines and connect the dots between the academic explanation for it and what it actually means for our collections... Ya know?
> 
> Like, what can I do to prevent it? Where should I be looking for diversity? (How far away do I want to go) Etc...
> 
> Soo say I have F2 benedictas from UE... Is it safe to go with any other frogs from UE?From my basic understanding of all this, if I go too far away it can cause problems but then if I keep inbreeding them it can cause problems too. So how do I find the proverbial "sweet spot" between the two and get so e fresh blood in the line?


Your making it more difficult than the concept really is..... 
In short, do not outcross to other localities as this can disrupt gene complexes that are normally stable and the disruption may result in a change that renders the population non-viable... For example, it could result in smaller eggs and tadpoles at hatching which is a direct impact on the survivorship of the metamorphs. In the wild populations, gene flow is controlled due to the enviromental and behavorial pressures which weed out the negative alleles for that population but allow the positives to remain.. This pressure is not present in captive populations so the negatives cannot be removed... 

The thing that seems to hang most people up is the fact that after multiple generations, captive populations can also lock in gene complexes that are advantageous for survivial in captivity (examples, smaller size at sexual maturity as the pressures to care for the eggs are pretty much removed), and you can get out breeding depression from that as well.... The answer on how to prevent this is to manage the captive population for genetic diversity and avoid inbreeding... this would remove the risk of outbreeding since the population would be genetically diverse and the risk of it would be minimal... All that would be needed to sustain a population of 50 pairs for hundreds of years would be one animal per generation... However this is not something that enough people have shown interest in over the last decade and without sufficient animals involved in this endeavor, neither inbreeding and/or outbreeding cannot be avoided... particularly since we often see people who believe that outcrossing to another morph/population as the best way to avoid inbreeding... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Thanks Ed.

So just to make sure I have this straight... Basically I should be fine getting any of the 'shucushuyacu' in the hobby and mixing them with mine since they are the same locale?

But I wouldn't want to mix them with 'pampa hermosa' since its a different locale.

Soooo... I definitely was overcomplicating it


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I have talked to Ed so I kind of understand In-Breeding a bit better. The issue we don't understand (correct me if I am wrong Ed) is that when we talk a group of frogs, lets say Azureus, and 50 perfect imports of 25.25 are brought in a paired perfectly and then sent to people. Once we start breeding offspring and sending them out say if each person gets pairs of F1 and so forth never crossing lines until we are at f3 then choose to breed with another f3 from a non related parent we are now creating a NEW line which means we are now getting f1's and helping break the Inbreeding. So we can help curb inbreeding by knowing the lines. ^.^


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Yea we covered the whole filial generation thing in another thread (I'm on my phone so I'll have to try to find it later). I just didn't know at one point we had to worry about disrupting genetics. 

If it is as simple as keeping 'shucushuyacu' with 'shucushuyacu' or keeping red frog beach with red frog beach then I was way over thinking it and its really a lot simpler than I thought. Really, it seems like its more of a reason to discourage crossing between morphs than to discourage any sort of crossing within morphs.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

It isn't =( Even if you take two frogs from the same locale you have to make sure the person obtaining them got them from exactly the same area.

Best example is 'Black Jeans' Frye line v Nahn line. Just because they are from Siqurres doesn't mean they were collected from the same site, so they could be two separate locales. So that doesn't mean that I can technically mix the lines otherwise I could be potentially outcrossing.

Again Ed if I am wrong please tell me ^.^


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

My bad... I was under the impression that red frog beach was the specific locale. I knew you couldn't mix it with other bastis but I didn't realize there were multiple collection points of red frog beach bastis... Now you see why I don't have pumilio haha


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

carola1155 said:


> Now you see why I don't have pumilio haha


Ditto! haha


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VenomR00 said:


> It isn't =( Even if you take two frogs from the same locale you have to make sure the person obtaining them got them from exactly the same area.


The real questions that need to be asked is whether or not it is a actual contiguous population or not and how far removed is the captive population. If it is from a contiguous population that is connected on the ground, then your going to have gene flow through that population and there isn't any real reason to seperate them. All that is needed is for someone on the ground to document the characteristics of the population. 



VenomR00 said:


> Best example is 'Black Jeans' Frye line v Nahn line. Just because they are from Siqurres doesn't mean they were collected from the same site, so they could be two separate locales. So that doesn't mean that I can technically mix the lines otherwise I could be potentially outcrossing.
> 
> Again Ed if I am wrong please tell me ^.^



Again, if it is determined that the population at Siqurres is one continous population, then they could be mixed.... If there are multiple seperate locations (that are not due to relatively recent recent man made activities). Until we have better information, they should be kept seperate... 



Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> Yea we covered the whole filial generation thing in another thread (I'm on my phone so I'll have to try to find it later). I just didn't know at one point we had to worry about disrupting genetics.
> 
> If it is as simple as keeping 'shucushuyacu' with 'shucushuyacu' .


In essence but people should also not be inbreeding the frogs for multiple generations and then outcrossing them to frogs that were from a different clutch and then serially interbred.. example 

F0 x F0 = F1
F1 x F1= F2 ...... F8 x F8 = F9 (F9 is randomly selected not guaranteed to be the generation where it can cause issues...could be earlier,, could be later depending on how frequently they have been serially interbred)... 

F9 from one breeder x F9 from a different breeder that went through the same serial process without any prior outcrossing..... This fixes different negative alleles and the initial outcrosses are often very hardy (outcross vigor) but then you can start having the disruption happening in the later generation (up to 5 after the outcross). 
This is in part why it is important to manage the frogs from the first generation for diversity... however since too few people are interested in it, we can only hope for the best. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Thanks Ed, that cleared it up quite a bit for me. Thanks for being patient with us haha

Now here's another random question, given that some of these frogs can live fairly long.. what would the consequences be of crossing an F6 from one breeder and an F2 from another? That would be better than an F6 and an F6, correct?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> Thanks Ed, that cleared it up quite a bit for me. Thanks for being patient with us haha
> 
> Now here's another random question, given that some of these frogs can live fairly long.. what would the consequences be of crossing an F6 from one breeder and an F2 from another? That would be better than an F6 and an F6, correct?



Well... It depends on how they are designating the filial numbers... if they are using them properly then they need to tell you how many generations they have been serially inbred (people getting a group of froglets from the same parents..)... 

If it is being used as the hobby has tried to use it designate generations from the wild... with respect to both of those examples, are both of the original frogs (and each subsequent pairing) actually that distance from wildstock... or has one or more of the breeders paired a wc animal with a low F# and is then using the wc parent to determine distance from wc animals? I've seen many variations of this in multiple parts of the herp hobby...

I have to add, that if there aren't enough people doing it, then it doesn't matter.... 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I was assuming they were using the filial labels properly when asking that question. Luckily I understand that all now from the other thread we had a little while ago.




Ed said:


> This is in part why it is important to manage the frogs from the first generation for diversity... however since too few people are interested in it, we can only hope for the best.





Ed said:


> I have to add, that if there aren't enough people doing it, then it doesn't matter....


well... hopefully over time threads like this will help the average hobbyist like me understand it better and play an active role in trying to help.


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks for all the insight Ed, I know you've covered a lot of these topics in past threads already. It helps to hash it out and talk about it instead of just reading existing threads sometimes. 

And to bring this thread back to my original question, it appears that I have the worst of both worlds going on in my tank. Not only serial inbreeding but outcrossing the serial inbred lines. The siblings are some generation from Reptiles Etc, but I don't know how far down or if they were outbred at any point. And the other guy is a rogue Azureus who escaped some frog prison to end up at a LFS whose line is unknown, but I will try and find out.

So do they live out their lives in isolation? Or just let it be? This situation is probably fairly common, just not broadcasted. I believe there is an AZA studbook for Azureus that maintains clean lines as well.

4 tads were deposited, the calling male lost his tad or deposited him in a hidden spot. I did get to watch the unrelated frog who isn't part of the courting pair deposit a tad, so that was really amazing to see. The tads are swimming happily in their new homes though.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SDRiding said:


> Thanks for all the insight Ed, I know you've covered a lot of these topics in past threads already. It helps to hash it out and talk about it instead of just reading existing threads sometimes.
> 
> And to bring this thread back to my original question, it appears that I have the worst of both worlds going on in my tank. Not only serial inbreeding but outcrossing the serial inbred lines. The siblings are some generation from Reptiles Etc, but I don't know how far down or if they were outbred at any point. And the other guy is a rogue Azureus who escaped some frog prison to end up at a LFS whose line is unknown, but I will try and find out.
> 
> ...


The situations is pretty much exactly the same for virtually all of the azureus in the hobby... I would not worry about it at this point. 

The zoos' studbook is for a later import of azureus due to the fact that the other captive population of them was highly inbred for those that they could track down, and for those they couldn't unknowable.... 

Ed


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