# canceling a purchase



## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this. 

So here's the situation. About five weeks ago I bought three Escudos from a seller on here. After paying for the frogs, I went back to look at her ads again. I noticed that a few of her other frogs for sale weren't really healthy looking so I started having doubt whether I've made the right decision. A couple days later I asked if I could back out of the deal and get my money back. She refused saying that she's already used the fund. I didn't make a big deal out of it since I did agree to buy the frogs and also she was having financial problems . 

After several weeks of not hearing back from her and still haven't received my frogs, I got worried about passing the deadline to file a dispute with Paypal and not be protected anymore. I again asked her to cancel the purchase since nothing was shipped anyway. I told her that she could put the frogs up for sale again and that I was willing to wait a couple of weeks for my refund while she is trying to find a new buyer. I was told that I would need to pay her a fee for her to repost the ads on here and also that I might not be able to get the full amount back but if she could sell the frogs for more than the original amount then she would get to keep the extra.

To me that sounded extremely shady. At this point I don't trust the seller. She was more concern about covering her basis than doing the right thing. I am worried about what if something happened to the frogs during shipping or the health of the frogs I'll be getting. I really question her character and consequently the quality of her frogs.

So what is the general rule for buy a frog? Are you not allow to back out once it's paid for? I am curious if I am being unreasonable here. I've seen many deals that have fallen through and I have had a seller that backed out after I've paid for the frogs. I have made purchased once on here before and everything went great, the frogs were super healthy and the seller was great to deal with so I got careless this time expecting the same experience.


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

why has she not shipped yet? weather?


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

yes it was due to weather


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

i would check any feedback on seller.but if it were me i would go with my gut, if it doesn't feel right to my gut it usually isn't..you have 60 days with paypal.


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## tongo (Jul 29, 2007)

As a buyer you need to protect yourself by checking feedback on the seller before you begin to discuss a deal. Your situation does sound shady as a I don't see a reason why they cannot refund you your money especially since they have not shipped yet. Also charging you a fee to repost an ad is crazy.


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

Following my gut is the reason why I tried to back out of the deal. Like I said, she was way more concern about covering her basis than doing the right thing. I can't image what she would do if there's a problem. It is my fault for not checking the feedback first. My last frog buying experience on here was great so I got careless.


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## Bighurt (Jun 18, 2011)

I once took the word of a seller prior to the Paypal deadline. Decided not to file the dispute, and never heard from the seller again. Nor did I receive any parcel.

Always file the dispute before the Paypal period is up. Otherwise why use Paypal...


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

If they sold the frogs to raise money and they said they spent it then there is nothing to go after, either you let her repost the frogs (with no fee that is absurd) and when they sell you get your money back...or wait for her to ship when the weather breaks a bit. Seems those are your only 2 viable options to settle this amicably. It would be interesting to note, when purchased were there any comments about getting them out to you in a day or 2 or was it hey weather is horrible I will ship when we get a break? Filing a dispute may be your only recourse but one would guess that would bog things down completely on the transaction but that may be the only way you get your money back if you are set on not taking the frogs. 
But with on your situation I would base which way to go on promised shipping time frames, if she backed out of shipping 2 or 3 times I would be deeply concerned, if she had said I will ship when the weather breaks you should give her that chance.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

I thought that paypal did not do disputes for animal purchases. Regardless, did the ad say that there would be no refunds, full pay up front, ship when weather is suitable? 
Ive seen a ad or two like that over the past couple months and I'm always gun shy of those. I have had to back out of deals before as a buyer due to issues more pressing. Transmission issues, new house issues. The real world comes along sometimes and I dont want to be locked in that way.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Aldross said:


> I thought that paypal did not do disputes for animal purchases.


Paypal's policy has just recently been changed. They do allow disputes for live animals.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/177570-paypal-buyer-protection-live-animals.html#post2288577

Always use a credit card for Paypal transactions. The seller doesn't have to have funs in their account for you to be refunded, and they usually credit your account right away. Might want to check on their policy regarding live animals.


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## zonz540 (Feb 8, 2012)

Most of us aren't shady. I try to bend over backwards for my buyers. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience.
Please post feedback on the seller in the feedback forums after all is said and done to help future buyers avoid this situation or to clear their name if they decide to come clean.
Best of luck with the pums!


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

To repost with a fee seems strange....

However if the agreement was you put the money down for her to hold them for you until weather permits.... and now you back out, I could see the seller being annoyed with that. Too many buyers will waste people's time holding frogs without putting money down, usually if people want something held, it is usually listed as non refundable or partial non refundable. 

Without knowing if anything like that was discussed, it is hard to really see who is at fault here. This is only one side of the story and it sounds like some important details may or may not exist.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Also, if someone admitted to having financial issues and you were not getting the frogs shipped immediately.... this opened yourself up for some potential problems. Such as if the frogs died and they couldn't fulfill the order, and of course the situation you have going on now.

I don't think I would feel comfortable fronting the money for so long in this situation. I also don't see why people post descriptions like that when selling frogs (as opposed to simply, I have the following for sale, or at the most, I am cutting back so here is a list) but I guess that is a topic for another discussion.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

If you paid for something (anything that isn't like custom made, or in the process of being built) and you haven't and the seller hasn't sent it to you, then you are entitled to a full refund if you ask for it. Like, if you order something from any of the sponsors on the site, I have no doubts that they'd have no qualms about returning your money, since they had not sent you what you paid for yet.

The whole scenario reeks of suspiciousness. If I were you I would go through Paypal and to get a refund ASAP.

I don't know how you paid on Paypal, but you should *ALWAYS* use the option to pay for goods or services, instead of send money to family/friends. Throw in the few bucks that make the difference to the vendor for choosing this option, and that money that you pay will be your insurance so that you can get a refund if something goes wrong. For the "pay for goods" option, you are protected by Paypal's "Purchase Protection", which will give you a refund if "You did not receive the item you paid for with PayPal – “Item Not Received” (INR)"


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I've had buyers back out after a purchase and ask for a refund a few times. I don't think a seller is under any obligation to offer a refund, but I have always complied with the request because I'm much more concerned with my reputation and providing good customer service than I am with any one transaction. Plus, I figure I'll just sell the frogs to someone else and at that point and in the meantime they are just getting bigger and more desirable anyway.

For the record, charging you to re-post them is ridiculous and, yeah, sketchy. Don't agree to that.

You're best option now IMO to to go through with the purchase. Do not do anything to complicate the process any further. Ambiguity is the enemy in a case like this. If you receive the animals, leave a review (facts only, doubts about integrity don't count) and quarantine appropriately. That being said, if you do not receive the frogs by the end of Paypal's dispute window, you really have no choice but to file a complaint as that is your ONLY recourse to ever really see frogs or money. I'm speaking as someone who let a seller string me along past that due date one time, and at that point you have absolutely no recourse.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I can agree with a few points on both sides of this. I don't remember this specific ad (and no, I don't need anyone to point me to it) but I can understand someone changing their mind based on getting new information.

Admittedly it's a little different, but if you had ordered frogs from someone and then found out someone else received frogs from that person that ended up being diagnosed with something like Rana or Chytrid... would you still want those frogs that you're waiting on? I would assume that you thought you were paying for healthy frogs, not a potential headache. Based on the information presented so far (which is admittedly one-sided)... If the buyer has legitimate concern about the health of the frogs, the seller should probably be willing to do more to dissuade those concerns. 

Now, as someone that has sold frogs before... I do understand frustration with people backing out of deals. I'm sure it would be even more frustrating if I was in a pinch for money. Does that mean that someone should have to just suck it up and take the frogs they seem to not want anymore? I don't think so. I have to imagine there is a way to work something else out. 

All that being said, paying in full for frogs that aren't going to be able to be delivered within 60 days seems a little odd to me. No matter how good the deal is, I would personally never do it unless maybe I had some sort of pre-existing relationship with the person.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Tom...I believe this ad said all sales were final. With that, what is your stance about non-refundable deposits in ad's and someone that doesn't want the frogs anymore before they shipped?


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

dmartin72 said:


> Tom...I believe this ad said all sales were final. With that, what is your stance about non-refundable deposits in ad's and someone that doesn't want the frogs anymore before they shipped?


She added that after I asked to cancel the deal. It wasn't there when I bought the frogs.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Honestly, I generally don't consider a sale to be "complete" until the item paid for was delivered... 

So, if I was selling something... "all sales final" would mean that once I held up my end of the deal and actually gave you the frogs or whatever... then you can't come back the next day and say "no, I don't want it anymore".

True to definition... a sale is a transfer of goods or services for payment. In this case, no transfer has taken place yet.

The only exception to this would be (as Hypostatic mentioned) if it was for something custom made. However, even in that case if someone has already started their service (the manufacturing) then at least part of the transaction is complete.

That's my 2 cents at least...


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

So non-refundable deposits don't carry weight...just curious as I've paid this non-refundable deposit before and held to it.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

dmartin72 said:


> So non-refundable deposits don't carry weight...just curious as I've paid this non-refundable deposit before and held to it.


I didnt say that... Sorry if I didn't totally answer your question the first time, just read your post again.

"all sales final" and "non-refundable deposits" are two different things if you ask me. The deposit implies that you are paying for someone to hold something for a period of time.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I would suggest that in the last 5 weeks there was ample opportunity to ship frogs, even up north...did you have them held for any reason for any period of time or just state ship as soon as it is safe to do so?


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

markpulawski said:


> I would suggest that in the last 5 weeks there was ample opportunity to ship frogs, even up north...did you have them held for any reason for any period of time or just state ship as soon as it is safe to do so?


When I paid for the frogs I did say to delay shipping for a week so I have enough time to get their tank ready.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Honestly...not where she is.



markpulawski said:


> I would suggest that in the last 5 weeks there was ample opportunity to ship frogs, even up north...did you have them held for any reason for any period of time or just state ship as soon as it is safe to do so?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

What's the difference if you pay a supposed non-refundable deposit or paid in full in an "all sales are final" deal? In both cases, you still haven't received your frogs. In that case, it seems you're saying that even the non-refundable deposit should be refundable because the frogs never exchanged hands. "Honestly, I generally don't consider a sale to be "complete" until the item paid for was delivered..."



carola1155 said:


> I didnt say that... Sorry if I didn't totally answer your question the first time, just read your post again.
> 
> "all sales final" and "non-refundable deposits" are two different things if you ask me. The deposit implies that you are paying for someone to hold something for a period of time.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

In this situation, I think it's fair to have the seller repost the items and hold the money until the frogs have sold again. Now, here's the problem. The person who bought these frogs has now questioned the possible health of the frogs and might make it very difficult to resell them.


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

I sell and ship many frogs, I generally don't require deposits for frogs that I have, I generally don't take payment unless I know they can be shipped in a reasonable time period. I will not spend the money until I know the frogs are delivered safely and I have a happy customer. I have had many members change their minds, but I have never refused to refund money or charge additional fees. I have many pending shipments currently because of nasty weather but I have not asked for one penny until I have a shipping window I feel is safe. Others may do things differently I can understand deposits that are non refundable if their are other parties interested and see no problem there if both parties agree to it. Things come up and people change their minds based on many reasons I try and be understanding but in the long run if you are going to buy/sell frogs to total strangers cover your assets better safe than sorry vendor feedback is there for your guidance, ask other member for pm's on anyone you haven't had any dealings with and always trust your gut just my opinion


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Seems most people feel that putting a non refundable deposit down should still mean the deposit should be refunded. The deposit down is for the seller to hold for a variety of reasons, while not selling to other potential customers and refusing other offers. Maybe someone offered the seller more but they refused. Now this person backs out and the other person found other frogs or used the funds for something else. Seems very one sided as for fairness goes. Everyone wants the other to be fair but when it is there turn..... 

To me the deposit if you choose to no longer accept receipt or pay the remainder depending on the situation, is your payment for the service the seller did provide. By holding for whatever reason along with not selling to others.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Greg...that's how I feel.


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

This was not a non-refundable deposit for a hold nor was the "all sales are final" included in the original ad.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Yeah I mean I get it, everyone wants others to bend for them and the world to revolve around them. But that's not realistic.

I had a clutch of snakes I held for someone and they backed out last minute on day of delivery. I turned down others leading up to that date. Had to feed them for a couple weeks as one of the other people wasn't able to meet right away. My fault for not requiring a down. Cost me money and time. Lesson learned. But had I accepted that other guys offer and bailed on the guy I committed to, you know he would have been complaining about it. 

I don't see why the seller is always in the position to be penalized.... The down protects this. Protects people wasting your time, protects people from backing out for say finding something else in a newer classifieds they would rather have, buyers remorse, etc. pros and cons to both paying and accepting a down payment.

This situation here I believe sounds like speculation and not factual based.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

dartsanddragons said:


> I sell and ship many frogs, I generally don't require deposits for frogs that I have, I generally don't take payment unless I know they can be shipped in a reasonable time period. I will not spend the money until I know the frogs are delivered safely and I have a happy customer. I have had many members change their minds, but I have never refused to refund money or charge additional fees. I have many pending shipments currently because of nasty weather but I have not asked for one penny until I have a shipping window I feel is safe. Others may do things differently I can understand deposits that are non refundable if their are other parties interested and see no problem there if both parties agree to it. Things come up and people change their minds based on many reasons I try and be understanding but in the long run if you are going to buy/sell frogs to total strangers cover your assets better safe than sorry vendor feedback is there for your guidance, ask other member for pm's on anyone you haven't had any dealings with and always trust your gut just my opinion


He's true to this lol. I have offered Scott the payment several times now(I'm one of the guys waiting on weather ).
I have paided in full before and waited a month for frogs to ship, i have put down deposits, and i have worked with guys like Scott that are happy to take you on your word that you do want the frogs you requested. You need to always have good communication with the seller. Before you send money to anyone you should have a real conversation with them. To me that's one of the better parts of buying the frogs. Hell i even called Devin before i bought pods. That said i feel that if you put down a deposit that is said to be non refundable then that loss is yours. 
The only reason that a deposit like that should be considered for return is if there is proof of unhealthy frogs being sold.


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

dmartin72 said:


> In this situation, I think it's fair to have the seller repost the items and hold the money until the frogs have sold again. Now, here's the problem. The person who bought these frogs has now questioned the possible health of the frogs and might make it very difficult to resell them.


That was what I suggested to her but she tried to charge me a fee for it.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

amgini said:


> This was not a non-refundable deposit for a hold nor was the "all sales are final" included in the original ad.


This is going into the ethics of all buying and selling. Is a good conversation. I saw how the ad changed as time went on. There were good deals to be had there but as Greg stated, there were to many red flags that the seller didn't need to bring into it. That alone was enough to turn me away.


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

im not really sure why there is a debate about a non-refundable deposit. the definition is in the word...non-refundable. that is why it is only a deposit...it is not a non-refundable payment 
I personally like to get a deposit - this at least guarantees you something for holding the frogs for X amount of time - however i would refund my customers either way, i have several sets of frogs waiting to be shipped (it was literally 1 degree where i live today, so that makes it a little challenging). if my customers asked for a refund tomorrow i would still give it to them, but that is purely just because i like to keep a clean reputation and avoid any possible misunderstandings, and i have the funds available to do so. (it sounds like this case may be different) 

as far as the health of the frogs, do you have any substantiating proof that the said frogs are unhealthy, or is it all hearsay. have you see pictures since and prior to when you bought them? what makes you think something may have changed since then or after the pictures were taken?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

It seems to me that all sellers should ask for an actual non-refundable deposit (what % should that be of the total) upfront and for the rest on the day the frogs are shipped. That way the deposit goes to the seller for wasted time and potential sales and the buyer can still back out at the cost of the deposit.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

...or call it a non-refundable payment as Nick said.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Nick, here is a quote from the buyer.



amgini said:


> After paying for the frogs, I went back to look at her ads again. I noticed that a few of her other frogs for sale weren't really healthy looking so I started having doubt whether I've made the right decision.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

So some looked thin in a picture....but not others. How about the frogs actually purchased. How did those look?

Yes I agree this is an interesting convo. About time dendroboard haha (note: I don't go searching often so maybe there have been others)


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but as a seller, never, ever ever ever, use the funds you've been paid for animals until your buyer recieved them as set forth in the terms of your agreement. This is just plain irresponsible in my opinion. be prepared to refund any funds until the frogs are accepted and you know your buyer is satisfied. Spending the money before they're sent is careless, what if they perish in transit, are lost, etc?


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

Keep it simple, if you choose to require a deposit that is non refundable, that's fine if agreed to but like Doug and I mentioned above don't spend the funds until the frogs arrive healthy and the other person is as well its just a good practice


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

I am finally chiming in after keeping an eye on this thread.. I know the situation.. I was actually going to buy the frogs before you paid for them but something came up LOL. I hope this works out for you in the long run be it you get the frogs or you dispute it on PayPal... 

Let me explain how I do business with selling my frogs.. I explain to every person who buys from me I do not ship until money clears my account. This is a hobby for me, not a business.. My personal money is tied up into my bills, mortgage, cars, my girlfriends purse... you get the idea... So to ship frogs, comes from my frog sales.. I will not spend my paycheck money on shipping/buying frogs. I just can't afford it. I have had many people get angry and hostile with me wondering why the frogs hadn't been shipped after 1 or 2 days after payment. I simply issue a refund or explain to them again, I ship once it clears. Its hard on both ends of the sale. Sellers can take advantage of new hobbyists by selling sick frogs, not sending ANY frog, Poor shipping practices resulting in death of frogs (8 beautiful leucs just had this fate  ) BUT at the same time, buyers usually never have to worry about feedback, someone is always willing to take someones money.. I always worry someone I do not know is going to dispute the charge after sending them $600 in frogs.. Hasn't happened yet.. But I can point you to a few customers of mine who I barraged with questions and references before sending them frogs. And when I ask someone new with only 30 posts to provide references from established DB members, you better believe I contact those members. Protecting my assests just like every body else should.. Im done rambling lol


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

I agree Doug! I do not ship frogs or accept money until shipping date is set plus frogs are delivered within a set time of pick up, my funds are in my pay pal account until picked up and frogs are ok on arrival. Plus I do not sell or advertise frogs when dubious weather is forecasted. IMO transaction is not complete until seller ships frogs and frogs arrive alive and in good health on arrival. I do not remove ad until deal is done. I also communicate with the buyer before frogs are shipped typically a phone call also e-mail. These are live animals and I want to be sure that they are going to a good home.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

carola1155 said:


> Honestly, I generally don't consider a sale to be "complete" until the item paid for was delivered...


I agree 100%, or at least until the seller has shipped the item. To draw a parallel to a similar hobby, there is a coral vendor that I sometimes buy from, and you can buy their stuff with a debit/credit card. They won't actually CHARGE your card until they've shipped your order, and there is usually some direct communication from them about the when/where of the delivery. I think it should absolutely be the same for frogs.



dmartin72 said:


> So non-refundable deposits don't carry weight...just curious as I've paid this non-refundable deposit before and held to it.


As a buyer, I wouldn't go near any type of sale that had a "non-refundable deposit", _especially_ when it comes to a live item like frogs (and again, with the exception of custom-made items). It's too risky for you as a buyer. If something goes horribly wrong, the seller can just say "no refunds", and profit from the transaction, while the buyer gets the short end of the stick. No thanks.

And I don't think there should be a non-refundable fee/deposit for holding frogs. That's absolutely ridiculous. 

I don't breed/sell nearly as many frogs as some people (I do what I do for pleasure of doing it, not for profit). But I HAVE sold some frogs. I had a prospective buyer ask me to hold some frogs (I don't recall the exact reason -- they were moving maybe?) for a couple of months. I told him no problem, but I did ask for a refundable deposit in case someone else wanted the frogs. If I had decided I didn't want to sell, or he that he changed his mind, I would have given him the deposit back, because that's the fair thing to do.

On the other end, I recently bought frogs from a vendor in November. Due to personal reasons, and then the cold weather, I wasn't able to receive the frogs until late January. I wasn't charged some ridiculous holding fee or anything -- the vendor understood that this is how these types of transactions can be. If I had changed my mind for some reason before the frogs were shipped, I would have expected a full refund, because again, that's the fair thing to do.



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but as a seller, never, ever ever ever, use the funds you've been paid for animals until your buyer received them as set forth in the terms of your agreement. This is just plain irresponsible in my opinion. be prepared to refund any funds until the frogs are accepted and you know your buyer is satisfied. Spending the money before they're sent is careless, what if they perish in transit, are lost, etc?


Yeah, this is a poor move on the seller's part.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

So you're saying you wouldn't buy from UE? I gladly paid the 25% they require as have hundreds of others. "A 25% non- refundable deposit now will hold any frogs for you for the first shipment of 2015."



hypostatic said:


> As a buyer, I wouldn't go near any type of sale that had a "non-refundable deposit", _especially_ when it comes to a live item like frogs (and again, with the exception of custom-made items). It's too risky for you as a buyer. If something goes horribly wrong, the seller can just say "no refunds", and profit from the transaction, while the buyer gets the short end of the stick. No thanks.
> 
> And I don't think there should be a non-refundable fee/deposit for holding frogs. That's absolutely ridiculous.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

...and by the way, As a seller, I would only ever hold the frogs if the buyer requested it or for weather restrictions.

What about people that have wait-lists/deposits for rare frogs?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

dmartin72 said:


> So you're saying you wouldn't buy from UE? I gladly paid the 25% they require as have hundreds of others. "A 25% non- refundable deposit now will hold any frogs for you for the first shipment of 2015."


I believe UE's 25% non-refundable deposit is only for their wait-list. I couldn't find a mention of it otherwise anywhere on their Terms and Conditions page. 

Here is UE's explanation:
"This policy change is to ensure that only those seriously interested in obtaining stock from UE are on the list. In the past we have spent a considerable amount of time contacting people who had been placed on lists when their frogs became available only to learn they were no longer interested, or to not hear back from them at all. This is a waste of our time and yours, thus if you wish to be placed on a wait list, we require a 25% non refundable deposit effective January 1, 2011. "

I personally have not been put on UE's wait-list for any frogs. I haven't bought any frogs from them either; I mostly prefer to do things locally. But to answer your question, if UE's policy for all their frogs --including those that they have some number of, and are not wait-listed-- is to have a 25% non refundable deposit, I would look for another source before going to UE.

That being said, I don't believe this is their policy for ALL their frogs (and correct me if I'm wrong).



dmartin72 said:


> What about people that have wait-lists/deposits for rare frogs?


Honestly, if an individual hobbyist has a frog that is so rare, and is in such demand that it's accumulated a wait-list, I feel like it should be fairly easy to sell said frogs, and that a non-refundable fee is unnecessary.

These are just my opinions. Obviously you can do things however you want and no one's going to stop you. But this is how I personally like to do business. I don't like paying for something that I haven't/won't get. And I don't like taking taking money for something that I don't know if I can give. I have paid "reservation deposits" for things that have a set release date, and I knew for certain when I would get it, but would not do this for an item whose unknown or uncertain to ever happen.

Again, most of this is just my personal opinion on things, but it's also advice for the OP and anyone else to not get burned on any potentially bad deals.

Sorry for the long posts lol


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Actually, I had to pay UE a 25% non-refundable deposit on frogs that are available and not on a wait-list. I actually paid in full upfront because of their reputation.

I personally would never have a wait-list, but have been on others that I know and trust.


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

I always pay understory 100% up front they are a very trusted breeder and if you change your mind they can't simply move onto the next customer at the last minute due to the required documentation they must do in advance of every shipment. That being said I completely support it if two people agree to this upfront and the seller has other opportunities to sell his/her frogs but these kinds of details must be transparent and completely agreed to, I still would not consider the funds mine until the frogs arrive safely and the person receiving them is happy I think we can all agree on that. The other details as long as they are agreed to and transparent are between the buyer and the seller on wether a deposit is or is not refundable


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## Atrox1214 (Sep 28, 2014)

My thoughts are that, until the seller has not held up her end of the deal, you can't really ask for a refund. If she ends up refusing to ship for no reason, or if the frogs arrive and are unhealthy, you have a case. I had two situations where I took deposits on snakes to be delivered at a show where the buyer had a change of heart right before the show and asked for the money back. I refused, as holding the snakes prevented me from selling them and I had held up my end of the deal. However, I had a deal where I sold some healthy frogs to a customer who had problems with them and wanted to return them. It was frustrating, as I had never had problems with the frogs ( and have had them back for 2 months with no issues), and I later learned that the buyer was fairly inexperienced with dart frogs. Even though the problem was not on my end, I still felt it was my responsibility to make the deal right since the customer was not happy. Side note, if this is the seller I think it is, I live in the same area and the temps have been consistently below freezing for about 2 weeks.


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## Nick_ (Mar 24, 2008)

amgini said:


> I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this.
> 
> So here's the situation. About five weeks ago I bought three Escudos from a seller on here. After paying for the frogs, I went back to look at her ads again. I noticed that a few of her other frogs for sale weren't really healthy looking so I started having doubt whether I've made the right decision. A couple days later I asked if I could back out of the deal and get my money back. She refused saying that she's already used the fund. I didn't make a big deal out of it since I did agree to buy the frogs and also she was having financial problems .
> 
> ...


You have 45 days to file a claim...that is an awfully long time. Backing out or requesting a refund is circumstantial in my opinion but bad practice at best. If they said the funds have already been spent....I would take that as they could not have refunded you the money if something went wrong. As mentioned by others this looks bad, I probably would have filed with paypal at that point fearing the conditions they were in if you could not get current pics of the frogs asap. Hope it works out for both the buyer and the seller somehow.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I'm still curious why they haven't responded to how the pics of the actual frogs to be received look.


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

mydumname said:


> I'm still curious why they haven't responded to how the pics of the actual frogs to be received look.


What you can see from the ad is what I saw. Nothing else was sent to me.


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## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm confused about what this is based upon. I don'tintend to call either of the parties out, but from what I've read thus far the change of heart seem to be due to a couple pictures of other frogsfor sale from the same person, not of the actual frogs in question. Please correct me if I am incorrect in stating that.


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

ngeno626 said:


> I'm confused about what this is based upon. I don'tintend to call either of the parties out, but from what I've read thus far the change of heart seem to be due to a couple pictures of other frogsfor sale from the same person, not of the actual frogs in question. Please correct me if I am incorrect in stating that.


Yes that's true at least in the beginning but now the seller's character is in question. I would rather not deal with someone I don't trust.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but as a seller, never, ever ever ever, use the funds you've been paid for animals until your buyer recieved them as set forth in the terms of your agreement. This is just plain irresponsible in my opinion. be prepared to refund any funds until the frogs are accepted and you know your buyer is satisfied. Spending the money before they're sent is careless, what if they perish in transit, are lost, etc?


Good point. A lot of inexperienced sellers may make this mistake wile riding on the high of selling their first few frogs. The only exception I personally might make would be to withdraw the actual shipping and handling costs, as I usually state that these are non-refundable once the frogs have been shipped, and they may need to be utilized to facilitate shipping.
I guess it should be mentioned however, that if the animals are NOT shipped using prescribed and widely accepted packaging methods, and healthy arrival is somehow compromised, some or all of the shipping charges may be reasonably included in a refund.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

It sounds like you were doing the right thing even offering to wait till she sold them to get your money back and being told I was going to be charged for something that didn't cost the seller anything in the first place I would just say no thanks and call my Credit Card company. Your credit card company can and will trump Paypal if the need arises. It might sound bad to some people but if someone is uncomfortable dealing with me I would prefer to give the money back then shipping something and them doing a charge back after the product is received I know people that it's happened to with items sold on Ebay. Ebay sided with the seller as did Paypal and then the buyer contacted the credit card company and they did a charged back even with evidence and a police report is useless since across state lines. It is few and far between but it happens and it's your money and if nothing has been shipped nothing has been spent on there part and since they obviously can't ship anyway no harm to them other than they will have to pay Paypal back but either way they got a loan since they spent the money before the item was received in good order so in my mind she got a loan from you. I would check out if it was me, sounds sketch. And it's 45 days for Paypal and leave a little room for processing.


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## Atrox1214 (Sep 28, 2014)

The thing that I find frustrating about many of these posts is that no one seems to be willing to put any responsibility on the buyer to make good on their end of the deal. Obviously, if the seller delivers unhealthy animals or refuses to ship without good reason (weather), then they have a responsibility to make it up to the buyer. But, it sounds like people think that buyers who asked a seller to hold a frog should be able to change their mind at any given moment with no consequence, and that the seller should just happily offer a full refund no questions asked. I've been selling reptiles and amphibians at shows and online for 15 years, and guess what, I'm not Target or Wal Mart, I can't just give out refunds, if I'm selling something, it's usually to cover expenses or fund another purchase. If I sell something that the buyer finds unsatisfactory, that's a different story, but I don't think I should be held responsible for buyer's remorse. My responsibility as a seller is to provide healthy animals as advertised, the buyer's responsibility is to make good on their end of the deal. I've been in situations where I had a change of heart on a purchase, and guess what, I still went ahead with the purchase because I knew the problem was mine and the seller did nothing wrong. I think that people really need to consider siding with the seller more and put some responsibility on the buyer, unless the seller did not deliver on their end.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I don't think the point was that it was buyers remorse, as much as the sellers business practices (by the one sided story we are getting so that's all we can go on in this thread) I know that if a seller told me that they don't have the money cause it was spent, I would be worried they don't have the money to pack my frogs correctly either but that's me. I'm sure you don't spend a buyers money until the product is received in good order, as any good business owner would know it's not yours until the contract is fulfilled. I agree that the buyer has a responsibility in any contractual agreement as does the buyer; however, the money is not the sellers until I have my product! Paypal is used as an escrow account not a personal loan service to use before a product is in the buyers possession and the contract is ended. If Walmart spent your money before sending you a product and told you "sorry the money is gone", they would be sued and so could an individual all the same. Corporations have a majority to keep happy to keep stock holders happy!! individuals don't have that pressure and tough times can make good people do things they would ordinarily not do but all the same, right is right and wrong is wrong in the eyes of contractual law (tough times or not). I feel for both parties but the frogs haven't left the sellers possession even so its not the same as returning the frogs. To save face most people I know would have refunded the buyer and had a beer and bitched to anyone that would listen to keep this right here from happening. I have eaten my fair share of products and shipping in my years of selling to save face and I am sure it paid off in the long run. 

That's my 1/2 cent but what do I know I'm just me and we all are not going to agree.


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## Atrox1214 (Sep 28, 2014)

I agree that spending the money before the animals are delivered may be considered bad practice, but I feel like it's a moot point until the seller doesn't hold up their end of the deal. unwise business practices don't mean that there will be anything wrong with the frogs, the buyer needs to give the seller a chance to make it right. And I disagree that if the frogs haven't left the seller's possession it's not the same as a return. The buyer paid for the frogs to prevent them from being sold to someone else. That means they're sold. In the example I gave with my snakes, I accepted a deposit to hold snakes and turned away other buyers because I had considered the snakes sold. I held up my end of the deal, the buyers back out, so they lost their deposit. But, if the seller delivers, I can see giving some leeway. In the example I gave where a customer wanted to return pumilio to me, I had delivered, but the buyer had issues and wasn't happy. Even though the problem was the buyer's fault and I later found out they were less experienced than I had thought and probably stressed the frogs out (I witnessed some pretty poor handling skills on their part), I felt that since I held up my end of the deal and the buyer wasn't happy, I should take them back.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

The 45 day Paypal protection window will likely expire, before there is a shipping window acceptable to the seller. If the buyer used a credit card to fund the purchase, she should contact the company and explain the situation. Find out how long she has to dispute a transaction. They can probably place a note in her file, that would extend her protection window. This would give the seller time to ship the frogs in decent shipping weather.
If the buyer is adamant that she does not want the frogs anymore. She should just file the dispute and accept any feedback from backing out of an agreed transaction.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I will reinforce the idea that a person should never spend money they have made on frogs or live animals until they have sealed the deal. And sealing the deal means successfully shipping the frogs to the buyer and verifying they arrived live. However the buyer knew ahead of time this was unlikely to be the case with this seller due to financial difficulties that caused the frog sales in the first place. On top of that the seller CLEARLY stated there would be no refunds. However I will avoid getting into right and wrong and focus more on practical decision making in the real world. 
Generally speaking it is unsafe practice to purchase from someone you know is having financial difficulty. Just like you would hesitate to buy a car from GM when they were in the middle of bankruptcy. I am pretty sure I know exactly what frogs these are, these exact escudo were considered by me but ultimately I didn’t feel comfortable sending my money off to a person who clearly had zero capability of refunding me if the frogs died in shipment or supporting the customer in any way. And what was worse I knew that the weather was terrible and going to continue to be terrible for some time. And it was even unsure if they would have the financial means to ship the frogs, let alone provide the extra packaging needed for the weather we are dealing with this winter. If I had gone forward with the sale I would have made it clear the buyer that the frogs would need to be shipped and guaranteed alive within 35 days or my money was to be refunded (giving myself 10 days to dispute).

It doesn’t matter how good the person’s prior record is when humans get into bad circumstances they often make rash or poor decisions. They are often not capable of abiding by the morals they might otherwise have. I have seen quite a few people in this hobby and other hobbies that are single persons or small businesses go downhill fast after having years of very good feedback when a single thing goes wrong, a medical issue, a family issue, or financial issue. 
On top of that you should remember the old adage nine tenths of the law is possession. In this case the seller has an extreme advantage, they have the frogs and your money (they possess both sides of the contract). It appears to me that the only little bit of leverage you have left is a PayPal dispute, if you go beyond the time frame allowed for a PayPal dispute you will have no leverage at all. 

I am not passing judgment on the seller as I also understand as someone who sells stuff all the time that it sucks when someone claims a product you have then wants their money back, especially after you have missed several possible sales. I am only providing the safest advice for you the buyer, get yourself some leverage now before you have none. My first major purchase in this hobby was from a bad vivarium builder and I never was able to recover my time or money because they purposely strung me out past my ability to dispute and personally I would make sure that for any major purchase that never happened to me again.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Agreed, I have been taken more times than I care to admit trying to be nice. I also do not pass judgment on anyone as life happens and truly just sucks sometimes. I also wouldn't want my frogs to go to someone that didn't want then anyway as sometimes people make a quick decision and decide it's wrong we are all just people and the frogs deserve fair and equitable treatment as well in this whole thing. If a dog breeder did this they would be chastised and any good breeder stands behind their product. Hell even Petco that gets a horrible rapport even stands behind what they sell. Obviously the person can't give the money back cause it's gone so PayPal will in a sense give the seller a loan and give the buyer the money back both people are getting what they need right now. She got a needed loan and he gets the money back. We live and learn and keep on learning. I hope the seller makes it through this tough time and everyone is in a better place come summer. I wish them both the best either way.


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

Just a quick update on this thread. Unfortunately my gut feelings were right about the seller. After about a month and a half after I've sent her the money, the seller just disappeared. No frogs, no refund and no communication. I thought I would not see my money again because I used a gift card to pay instead of my credit card. Also I was having some problems with Paypal dispute. I was able to file a charge back with the card issuer and finally just got the credit back. I hope this will serve as a warning for other buyers. Feel free to me a message if you want to know detail info about the seller.


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## jsilva (Nov 2, 2014)

We are in the same boat buddy, I got screwed with a large amount of money, no frogs no communication, I'm about to pay a visit to her real soon. If you guys need personal details and information about her PM me
I'm also considering taking her to court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your situation. I thought I was the only one being screwed. Hope you get your money back somehow. 




jsilva said:


> We are in the same boat buddy, I got screwed with a large amount of money, no frogs no communication, I'm about to pay a visit to her real soon. If you guys need personal details and information about her PM me
> I'm also considering taking her to court.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

This is precisely why the feedback system exists. It appears there is a pattern here. Both of you should submit feedback for this person so that others are warned.


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

This person can still be found at shows buying, selling and trading saw her at the last Oaks show


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## jsilva (Nov 2, 2014)

That is sick, you have to have the stomach to screwed so many people and still going like nothing is going on 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

Especially after being ripped off herself just a few years ago and so many others tried to help her


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

She up and disappeared on me too. I did get a partial order. Scott, I can't believe she is still going to shows and buying!?!? And yes, I was trying to help her out.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

dartsanddragons said:


> I sell and ship many frogs, I generally don't require deposits for frogs that I have, I generally don't take payment unless I know they can be shipped in a reasonable time period. I will not spend the money until I know the frogs are delivered safely and I have a happy customer. I have had many members change their minds, but I have never refused to refund money or charge additional fees. I have many pending shipments currently because of nasty weather but I have not asked for one penny until I have a shipping window I feel is safe. Others may do things differently I can understand deposits that are non refundable if their are other parties interested and see no problem there if both parties agree to it. Things come up and people change their minds based on many reasons I try and be understanding but in the long run if you are going to buy/sell frogs to total strangers cover your assets better safe than sorry vendor feedback is there for your guidance, ask other member for pm's on anyone you haven't had any dealings with and always trust your gut just my opinion


I do about the same thing.

I refuse to take deposits since I don't want to be responsible for refunds. If someone wants to purchase frogs I'll hold them for a reasonable period of time. I don't ask for payment until the week of shipping. And I don't transfer any money into my bank account (if I'm using Paypal) until the frogs have arrived alive.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

I had a situation with this person last year. I actually sold her frogs in which she was suppose to give me half down upon receiving the frogs. I received much less than that. I did receive the full amount after 4 months, but it was a hassel and she always had a different excuse. Since then I haven't dealt with her or seen her around as much.

I fortunately live near her and frequent the same meetings and shows. I think if I wasn't in the same state and knew many of the same people I may have never seem all my money.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Thankfully I`ve never been in this situation because I would be the one you read about in the paper.

TRUST NO ONE..unless you have a personal relationship with them..NO ONE!

There is probably 6-8 people here that I trust enough to send money to.
That is what the feedback section is for people.
2 winters ago I had to wait 6 weeks for a bug order that I sent payment to because of the weather on his end and mine. Was I worried? Hell no because of his vendor feedback and I had dealt with him several time before.
It doesn`t matter to me if it`s a springtail order or the next flavor of the month frog.
Don`t trust anyone you don`t know.

It`s really that simple


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

For the record, this member is now restricted from using the Marketplace area of the forum. 

I think we know of 5 people that have now had bad dealings with her... Same situation... sent money, only received excuses in return.






and on a personal note... The part that Scott brought up about her being the one to get screwed over a couple years ago and having a lot of people step up to try to help is especially disappointing. She's seen the best and worst of this hobby... first being screwed over but then receiving the support she got from everyone in the aftermath... It's a shame that she has chosen to replicate the bad and has turned her back on all the good will this hobby has shown her.

From what I have heard, she is active in other herp/animal circles. So to those of you that have had issues, I would strongly recommend taking this over to fauna BOI to potentially help other people before it is too late.


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## XxExoticPsychExX (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm sorry for those who've had a bad experience with this seller.

I, however, have experienced the opposite. My order arrived no problems with everyone alive and fat. 

With all the negative comments, I wanted to put out this positive one and provide another view. I'll post a more detailed response in vendor feedback.


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

Very disturbing to hear of all of these bad transactions from this person.I have had many past transactions with this seller,mostly this person buying from me,and has always paid within a reasonable time as pre-arranged.The frogs that I purchased from this seller,as posted in some fairly recent adds,all were in great shape when acquired by me.Hope that everyone gets taken care of by this person,as would fully be expected!!! Shocked!!!!
Ron


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

This is in general as Ive never dealt with this seller, but had a similar experience. Appologies in advance if this is redundant, as I didnt have time to review everyone's insights on this topic or even have a discussion in realtime, but I would like to share what happened to me with a guy a while back as I feel it is important. Most people are not well informed about their actual coverage with paypal, YOU HAVE ZERO COVERAGE ON LIVE ANIMALS WITH BUYER PROTECTION FROM PAYPAL(you will lose the case the moment they know it was for "animals" in most instances), this means that paying for goods and services gets paypal rich & does essentially nothing for you or at least not as much as it should with respect to live animal purchases). your best "insurance" or back up is to always pay for frogs with a credit card through paypal as you can always dispute the transaction & do a chargeback. Also as a seller, I NEVER SPEND A CUSTOMERS MONEY UNTIL HE/SHE GETS THE FROGS ALIVE AND WELL, in my eyes youre a knucklehead & it is irresponsible to use someones money the moment you get it even if youre financially in need of it. THE TRANSACTION is not COMPLETE UNTIL A CUSTOMER GETS THE FROGS NOT DOA! Always ask around & do your proper due diligence on people before making a purchase. You will find that usually word of mouth has gotten around on the people that need be avoided. Do onto others as you wish done to you. Would you like if someone shipped your frogs, spent your money that day & then you received a dead one or something & when you contacted them they replied, "I will refund when IM able to sell off some more things as I already spent your funds and this will take as long as it takes"... To me that is ridiculous and unacceptable & I will chargeback & blast you everytime for it.


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## jsilva (Nov 2, 2014)

"Amen". She came like a person in need and we were just trying to help and got screwed for being nice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ok, so before we start getting farther off-topic and drift more into the "vendor feedback" sphere here... 



Lets try taking this back to the original post and a discussion about "cancelling a purchase". 





If anyone wants to leave vendor feedback, I encourage them to do so in the appropriate place. (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/173026-feedback-thread-starter.html)

Thanks!


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

Tincman brought up a good point. Don't rely on Paypal buyer protection. It's worse than worthless because it gives you a false sense of protection when it does very little for you especially when you need it most. If I hadn't been able to file a charge back the gift card issuer then I would have never recovered my money. Always use credit card with your Paypal. It was just my luck that the one rare time that I didn't and I ran into a bad seller.


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## XxExoticPsychExX (Mar 12, 2012)

As a seller, you need to clearly state all of your rules/clauses at the time of the ad. There shouldn't be any addendums placed after an agreement has been reached with a buyer. Funds shouldn't be used until after the transaction has been completed.*

*Some of the ads placed stated that money needed to be raised to pay for bills. Someone short on cash is most likely not in the position to hold onto funds until the transaction is complete. Buyers should take this into account when deciding on purchasing from the individual.

Buyers should do their research and ask their questions about/to the seller ahead of time before coming to an agreement and paying any money. This includes looking at their past posts, how long have they been selling, who they've purchased from, any pictures of their frogs, etc. Do not rely on PayPal to cover you. Use a credit card to back up your purchases (*cough, Discover card, cough*).

I don't know what the communication was like between this seller and the buyer. Many people wait to ship until temperatures are above freezing for the well being of the frogs. 

Ask for pictures to see which frogs you will actually be purchasing. If they look fat and healthy, awesome. If other frogs that you will not be purchasing look skinny in your opinion, then don't purchase the skinny frogs. If you're not comfortable purchasing from someone whose other frogs (that you weren't going to be purchasing) look skinny, then don't put money down or agree to buy anything from them at all.

Cancel the transaction if you don't receive your shipment at all. I know some credit card companies have a certain limit of when you can do this. However, make it clear to the seller that the time for you to do a charge back is coming up, and if you don't receive your goods by xx/xx/xxxx date, then you'll proceed with the charge back to cover yourself. 

As a side note, don't purchase living things during winter unless you're willing to wait for better weather. If you know the seller is more than capable to ship during below freezing and trust them, then carry on.


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## Weston (Mar 21, 2015)

Kelly makes a good point I was going to bring up:
Since we all share the commonality and love of the amphibian/reptile hobby that should be enough for our mutual trust and 99% of the time it is. Still, once you enter the realm of selling something to people other than your friends and family, you're operating as a business, even if you aren't registered one. Kind of just an aside, but if you sell or earn any type of profit income in excess of $500.00 in the year from one enterprise it technically requires a 1099. 

Maybe not a totally fair position, but when the personal funds of a seller are mixed-up with money that is part of a transaction that usually isn't a formula for a great outcome. Sadly, as a buyer that's not really always apparent.

One last aside: If you're a seller, square is a nice payment service to offer that takes out a similar, if not smaller, percentage as paypal.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Since you are being "technical".... Technically your 1099 info isn't accurate.


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## sumer (Dec 14, 2012)

mydumname said:


> Since you are being "technical".... Technically your 1099 info isn't accurate.


Isn't that $599, Greg?


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## Weston (Mar 21, 2015)

sumer said:


> Isn't that $599, Greg?


Haha whoops... editing my other post. Yep it's $600.00. My bad.

Apparently it's too late to edit the incorrect number: I am immortalized as a numbskull.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Weston said:


> I am immortalized as a numbskull.


The club is full..but I`ll see if I can squeeze you in


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