# Lost a New Frog



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Hi,

I received a frog 2 days ago and placed it into the following quarantine tub.
This picture is after I misted.








There was plenty of leaf litter 

I checked this morning to find the frog was deceased.










Could this be related to the FedEx shipment being delayed and the frog being stuck in transit an extra day?

Thanks,
Ricky


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Could this be related to the FedEx shipment being delayed and the frog being stuck in transit an extra day?


Sure could be. If you give details on how the frog was packed, the temps at the shipping city, hub, and destination city, how long it was on the delivery truck, how the frog acted on arrival etc, it would help to determine whether it is likely to be shipping related.

That's a nice little QT tub, BTW.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Sure could be. If you give details on how the frog was packed, the temps at the shipping city, hub, and destination city, how long it was on the delivery truck, how the frog acted on arrival etc, it would help to determine whether it is likely to be shipping related.
> 
> That's a nice little QT tub, BTW.


I am just so depressed from this, the poor frog. I was worried when the shipment was delayed, but it arrived alive so I thought everything was ok.

I ordered the shipment from Nevada it shipped at 4:51 PM on August 11th the temperature ranged from 95F when it shipped to 80F when it arrived. It arrived in Memphis TN on August 12th at 1:04 AM remained there until 4:28 PM the temperatures ranged from 77F-93F while it was there. It then departed to Newark NJ the temperature was around 90F high for this and arrived at 7:45 PM the temperatures ranged from about 80F to 93F while it remained at Newark. It departed Newark with temperatures ranging from 80F to 85F at 3:53 AM the next day and arrived in Mahwah, NJ at 7:40 AM on the 13th. I was able to get it by 10:17 AM.

When I received the frog it was not very active; it seemed as though it was tired. I paid no mind to this, but looking back is this a red flag? It seemed to just sit around while the other frog I received several weeks ago was very active upon putting it into the enclosure.

I just want to do a good job in this hobby, I don't want to lose animals like this. Was there anything I could have done to save this animal?

Thanks,
Ricky


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

The temperatures you describe certainly could cause hyperthermia, if the frog wasn't properly packaged. Please describe the shipping container in detail (size, insulation thickness, any temperature control products, as well as how the frog itself was cupped). Many shippers will refuse to send frogs through the mail late summer, given how hot much of the country is, especially this year. Sorry for the loss, but it may not have had anything to do with the care you provided since receiving the animal.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Dane said:


> The temperatures you describe certainly could cause hyperthermia, if the frog wasn't properly packaged. Please describe the shipping container in detail (size, insulation thickness, any temperature control products, as well as how the frog itself was cupped). Many shippers will refuse to send frogs through the mail late summer, given how hot much of the country is, especially this year. Sorry for the loss, but it may not have had anything to do with the care you provided since receiving the animal.


Hi Dane,

This death comes at a stressful time in my life so I appreciate your kind words.

The frog was packaged well and was in a 7x8x8 in box







]

The frog was also in a deli cup with wet paper towel and plant cuttings. This cup was surrounded by newspaper to fill the gaps and there was another bag of that thermal gel on top with another piece of styrofoam. This was a reputable breeder that I received the frog from. 

Would stress be a factor? Who knows what FedEx employees were doing with the package during the time it was in transit. 

Should I scrap the whole quarantine enclosure? Or can the cork bark/coco hut be sanitized?

Thanks,
Ricky


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

To clarify: the only "cold pack" sort of material included was the water gel material in the photo above? Was the "bag of thermal gel" that was on top of the cup and newspaper also a ziplok with water crystals in it, or was this top bag something else? Do you have a photo of the top "cold pack" itself?

If there weren't at least two Phase 22 packs in the box (these have "Cryopak" printed on the label), then thermal stress (starting too cool, then getting too hot) is almost certainly a factor.

FWIW, no matter how packed, highs of 90F anywhere on the route is a big red flag for shipping, and the frog really should have been held for better conditions. This is the responsibility of the shipper to make this call. I don't suspect you did anything wrong, and it is apparent that you're doing a lot of things right.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> To clarify: the only "cold pack" sort of material included was the water gel material in the photo above? Was the "bag of thermal gel" that was on top of the cup and newspaper also a ziplok with water crystals in it, or was this top bag something else? Do you have a photo of the top "cold pack" itself?
> 
> If there weren't at least two Phase 22 packs in the box (these have "Cryopak" printed on the label), then thermal stress (starting too cool, then getting too hot) is almost certainly a factor.
> 
> FWIW, no matter how packed, highs of 90F anywhere on the route is a big red flag for shipping, and the frog really should have been held for better conditions. This is the responsibility of the shipper to make this call. I don't suspect you did anything wrong, and it is apparent that you're doing a lot of things right.


There was one Cryopak and two of the gel bags shown in the image. Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly how they were placed.

Thanks,
Ricky


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

no one should ship at 90F or above.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Sounds as if thermal stress is a likely cause of death -- it was too hot at all to ship, and one Phase pack isn't really much, and a hot extra day in transit.

Though there seems to me to be no reason to suspect a pathogen, it would be easy to heat treat the moss and leaf litter and cork (dry it all, then bake at 300F for a half hour or so), and bleach the pathos and the tub (one part regular disinfecting Chlorox to nine parts tap water, soak for ten minutes, then rinse and allow to air out for a couple days), and use everything again.

As to your other concern, it seems you are doing a good job, a really good job. This isn't your fault, and there isn't anything you could have done differently that I can see.


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

I think it was too hot to be shipping a frog no matter how you package it. I'm paranoid about this stuff, but I don't order frogs in the summer for this reason. You can find some you can drive to and pick up if you need to. So sad that happened, but it's not your fault at all. The shipper should not be shipping in those temperatures in my opinion.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Thanks everyone for your feedback. As an update the seller has provided me with a refund for the frog, but I am still out the shipping costs which is not the end of the world.

While many of you mentioned it is on the shipper; I will learn from this and be more diligent in the future to make sure that the temperatures are suitable.

It is a shame FedEx had delayed the shipment... It is possible the frog could have survived had it not been stuck in transit an extra day. 

As for the materials (such as the Cryopak) that I receive when a frog is sent my way... Should I save them and reuse them in the future if I ever have to ship frogs? Or do they have a shelf life and should they be disposed of?

Thanks,
Ricky


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yes, shipping with all carriers is a mess right now, and has been for more than a year, and is likely to be so well into the future. I've had FedEx overnight delays like yours with live animals; this morning I looked into shipping USPS Express (not animals, of course) which is supposed to be 1-2 day shipping, and it estimated delivery on the evening of the third day. 

QUOTE="Imatreewaterme, post: 3136116, member: 129455"]
As for the materials (such as the Cryopak) that I receive when a frog is sent my way... Should I save them and reuse them in the future if I ever have to ship frogs? Or do they have a shelf life and should they be disposed of
[/QUOTE]

All the materials -- Phase packs, water gel cold pack, deli cups, box and styro -- can be reused. There's no limit on their shelf life.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Hi,

As an update... I sanitized all the contents and used the container for another quarantine tank. I received another juvenile a few days ago and this one is much more healthy and active from the previous. 

I am monitoring it and letting the little fella grow and eat.

My first frog which is in the permanent vivarium just called for the first time today (very exciting) so I am sure it is a male now. When I introduce this new frog will it be bullied by the more mature frog? Also, if they both end up male will wrestling occur even if a female is not present? I am hopeful that I will have a good coin flip and this new frog will end up female. However, if it is a male would it be best to trade it for an adult female? How would I ensure that the person I trade with gives me a healthy frog that is not too old?

Thanks,
Ricky


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