# Wikiri on smuggled frogs



## thedude

Here is something everyone should read. Especially if you recently purchased "legal" sylvatica that did not come from UE.

Noticias de Wikiri S.A.


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## Ed

Now who was it selling those imported frogs again.....???? 

Ed


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## Woodsman

The other important question, who was it exactly who were buying these smuggled frogs from the smuggler?

Richard.



Ed said:


> Now who was it selling those imported frogs again.....????
> 
> Ed


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## outofreach

Ed said:


> Now who was it selling those imported frogs again.....????
> 
> Ed


It would be in the hobbies best interest if we didn't buy from that person/group/company right? I am out of the loop here but would like to know who is smuggling, especially if they are likely to continue selling frogs.


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## heyduke

It's fairly easy to figure out who was selling the animals in question. I would start by searching the classified section.... Etcetera

If they are not from Understory they are questionable.


Sean


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## Ghost vivs

Let's also not forget all the people that rushed to his defense when these frogs were first questioned. They knew something wasn't right but they got them anyway.

I have been saying this person is a lying, cheating, no good POS since the first day i met them. Hell he even started his own "epic" feedback thread in the dome because i was busting his balls in all the forums. I even called him out on smuggled histo's in that very thread,and this was way before these ones we are talking about now....

Nobody wanted to believe me then...people kept telling me i didn't know what i was talking about, that i was just out to get him...


Thank you Wikiri for some vindication...

Casper



heyduke said:


> It's fairly easy to figure out who was selling the animals in question. I would start by searching the classified section.... Etcetera
> 
> If they are not from Understory they are questionable.
> 
> 
> Sean


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## JPccusa

From the paper:


> Information about illegal activities may be sent to the following email address: [email protected]


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Ed said:


> Now who was it selling those imported frogs again.....????
> 
> Ed





Woodsman said:


> The other important question, who was it exactly who were buying these smuggled frogs from the smuggler?
> 
> Richard.





outofreach said:


> It would be in the hobbies best interest if we didn't buy from that person/group/company right? I am out of the loop here but would like to know who is smuggling, especially if they are likely to continue selling frogs.


Another important question is why is it the policy of the owner and moderators of this forum to welcome this "smuggler" with open arms. There is no "official" bad feedback for him on this forum though we all know better than to believe that. It's like only positive feedback is allowed to be posted. Yet he has proved himself to be a snake over and over....sorry, no offense intended snakes.


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## stemcellular

FYI - he has been prohibited from selling on this site for quite some time now.


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## SnakePaparazzi

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> ....sorry, no offense intended snakes.


Haha! None taken


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## heyduke

stemcellular said:


> FYI - he has been prohibited from selling on this site for quite some time now.


After the syvitica ads or after that?


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## heyduke

8/22/2012 was the last post.
06/2012 were ads in question

To date... not banned.
All contact info is available on user info page.
Hell he is online now.
Not really a definitive stance by Dendroboard as I see it.

Talk it and walk it.


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## easternversant

heyduke said:


> It's fairly easy to figure out who was selling the animals in question. I would start by searching the classified section.... Etcetera
> 
> If they are not from Understory they are questionable.
> 
> 
> Sean


I see what you did there....clever. 

Assuming it is the same person the mod mentioned, they must have banned him from posting to the classifieds well after the sylvatica ad. 

You are right though, I feel like if a 'stand' is going to made it needs to be via actually banning the man and black-listing him. Unfortunately, I truly doubt this would stop people from buying from him.


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## heyduke

It would at least reduce his exposure. It's a well populated board and the first that many coming into the hobby encounter.




Sean


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## Rusty_Shackleford

heyduke said:


> 8/22/2012 was the last post.
> 06/2012 were ads in question
> 
> To date... not banned.
> All contact info is available on user info page.
> Hell he is online now.
> Not really a definitive stance by Dendroboard as I see it.
> 
> Talk it and walk it.


Probably never will be as long as you have mods leaving positive feedback on this joker.


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## Dizzle21

easternversant said:


> You are right though, I feel like if a 'stand' is going to made it needs to be via actually banning the man and black-listing him. Unfortunately, I truly doubt this would stop people from buying from him.


Unfortunately your right... Someone will aways buy from these criminals and there will always be a place their accepted. I just started going on dart den recently and its disgusting that they still let people like sidney ferrell and chris teem post and sell stuff like theres no problem..


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## thedude

JPccusa said:


> From the paper:
> Information about illegal activities may be sent to the following email address: [email protected]


I'll be emailing them. I think others should do the same. If enough people say his name, they'll definitely try to do something.


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## markpulawski

I wonder who's buying all of those illegal frogs....well I am sure I have (though none from the person being discussed here)...Adam I know you have, just look at your current for sale add. 
Becoming aware and trying to make our hobby better is a good thing and will do a lot to advance the stand we can all take, however I would suggest there are one hell of a lot of targets here in the US. Many argue the Panamanian Pumilio imports should stop, well those along with the Understory frogs may be the only legit legal imports we actually have here in the US.....think about it.


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## Ed

Mark, 



markpulawski said:


> . Many argue the Panamanian Pumilio imports should stop, well those along with the Understory frogs may be the only legit legal imports we actually have here in the US.....think about it.


There is some question that the pumilio imports from Panama are actually 100% legal since Panama has refused to set a quota and submit the information showing the collection and export are sustainable as is required for CITES II animals. And in that case the jury is still out since it would require investigation of the trade by CITES. This is discussed here (free access) http://wildlifetraderesearch.org/files/a88_nijmanshepherd_poisonarrowfrog_biodivconserv_2.pdf. 


If there is an investigation and if the investigation finds that Panama violated the CITES treaty, then retroactively the animals will have been exported in violation of CITES requirements. So technically they will be illegal but it is going to be impossible to enforce retroactively nor practical to attempt to do so. Historically this has just resulted in a cessation of imports into signatories of CITES. 

There are some other legal imports, the small numbers of D. tinctorius that have come in from Suriname appear to be totally legal since it appears that they are following a quota and Suriname is open for export. 

The rest of this isn't a response to you, but simply me getting on a soapbox... 

There have been legal imports of many of the dendrobatids in the hobby, and we can be sure that there have also been smuggled imports of animals either prior to, along with, or post those that were also legally imported (and thus laundered into the hobby). This is where we run into the large grey area since for a long time there has been a demand for "new blood" since captive produced frogs were flor a long time considered to be "poorer quality" as compared to the wild caught animals. We are slowly getting a handle on some of the husbandry issues so with any luck we can also change that stereotype. The problem for many in the hobby to tell the difference between the smuggled animals and those that are legal since many use the justification that since they made it through import they are "legal" regardless of the fact that USF&W can also when presented with more information revoke the status that they were legally imported. There is also a mindset among a number in the hobby that they want to have the desirable frogs regardlless of thier legality.... This is where the hobby overall runs into ethical issues and in the last several years we have seen these ethics severely bent if not broken. 

Some comments bordering on a rant.. 

Ed


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## easternversant

Thanks for those comments Ed, good points all.

I personally wonder what the impact of the pumilio exports are. I've seen the ads where they have tons of adult frogs--the removal of large groups of adult frogs has to have an exacerbated effect in obligate egg-feeders as any young they may have as eggs or tadpoles are doomed. Then again, I've never made it to these populations but I hear pumilio is dirt-common and even breed in garbage piles.

It is certainly difficult to truly know what frogs are legal, but figuring this out prior to purchasing frogs is, I feel, our duty. This is why I love companies like Understory. If they are selling frogs you can be assured that they are legal. 

I think one large, and ignored, gray area is frogs that suddenly become 'legal' with the addition of a truly legal import. For example, imports of then 'intermedius intermedius' and 'banded intermedius' to the US in the early 90s from Europe. These lines have been around for so long that no one really talks about them in this way anymore, but technically they are illegal. It has been 20 years and obviously those original imports are no longer hurting populations since these have been prolific in captivity. I guess for that reason they are a bit of a gray area to me.

I'd be willing to bet that if there was suddenly a legal import of mysteriosus into the states then we would see them popping up all over. People that have had them for a while will finally think that they are able to come out and show them off. I guarantee that people in the states have this species, even some folks on this forum. So then what do we do? Just accept all the illegally smuggled frogs as well because there was a legal import? I'm sure a lot of people would say of course, while others finally flaunt what they've had.

Sorry for being so verbose...


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## markpulawski

I agree on the Tincs Ed, through Strictly and several others for many years off and on, legal imports have shown up. And good points Adam, many thumbs have been here for years without outcry...not only the Intermedius but the highly desired, did I say highly desired Standard Lamasi/Sirensis, nearly extinct in certain areas where it occurred.
Also the Terribilis, all illegal based on our criteria, along with so many others.
This is a start, especially when we see one person continually flaunt frogs that are obviously illegal but understand it is not this one person...there are several involved in this.
I am sure a handful of people are driving the great % of smuggling, I am happy that at least 1 country outside of the Brazilian/Castneoticus incident is now trying to make an effort to stop the exploitation of their wild life, good luck to them. I would hope it would incent them to make more of these animals available to these farming programs as with the greater the variety the less need for the continuous flow of new morphs or unavailable species.
But most of us do live in glass houses here so be careful what you wish for.
I would also add the only truely sustainable dart frog program has been Understory and the programs in Central & South America that have aligned theirselves with Understory, that being said for those that want no impact animals in their collection it is nice to know their is one supplier that offers a variety of animals and species that in no way shape or form can be questioned as to their imapct on wild populations.


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## srrrio

Mark, you comment on glass houses certainly rings true. My A. galactonotus and quinquevittatus are looking at me as I write. It is great to have the notice from Wikiri posted, and to have this discussion. Hopefully it will help make things clearer for everyone in the future, eliminate some of those “shades of grey”. 

I am sure those that have purchased the O. sylvatica from Understory keep clear records and save their proof of purchase. I would love to see in a for sale classified the words “proof of UE heritage included with purchase”,and that the buyer only buys with that proof.


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## SnakePaparazzi

How would a receipt for buying frogs from understory eliminate the possibility of someone having a stock of illegal Sylvaticas who purchases a few from UE from selling them as UE line?

Edit: Wanted to clarify if its worded confusing... A person could have a stock of illegal Sylvaticas and buy frogs from UE. Using the UE receipt, they can say their illegal frogs are UE or offspring from their UE.


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## Ed

markpulawski said:


> , many thumbs have been here for years without outcry...not only the Intermedius but the highly desired, did I say highly desired Standard Lamasi/Sirensis, nearly extinct in certain areas where it occurred.


Mark how many different thumbnail species/populations/morphs do you think were brought in as another species before they were split from that group as a new species.. such as when a bunch were lumped under quinquevittatus? 

Ed


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## Woodsman

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

Richard.



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Probably never will be as long as you have mods leaving positive feedback on this joker.


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## thedude

markpulawski said:


> I wonder who's buying all of those illegal frogs....well I am sure I have (though none from the person being discussed here)...Adam I know you have, just look at your current for sale add.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Notice I am selling them? And are you saying we shouldn't inform them about him? True there are plenty of frogs in this hobby that are questionable, or are absolutely from smuggled stock, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work to fix what we can. Aside from the Blue Jeans (NOT from him) and a couple frogs I got from someone getting out of the hobby (also in the ad), I am only working with frogs from UE, Wikiri, CRARC, or legal Suriname origins.
> 
> Either way, keeping this person from bringing in more of these frogs should be a top priority for the hobby if we really want to be conservation minded, and if we want to continue seeing great strides in the imports coming from companies like Wikiri and Tesoros.


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## markpulawski

Oh no Adam I am with you but these frogs are like selling drugs, nab the guy selling them on the street corner and someone else will pop up very quickly....got to get to the source. It's almost like an Addiction to Toxicity...sorry just had to throw that in.
I like you have shed all of my frogs but UE and Pumilio through Strictly, which may have issues but for now are legally exported by country of origin.


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## sports_doc

Woodsman said:


> Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
> 
> Richard.


Not everyone was aware of all the facts and some of us have purchased from various vendors over the years, some good, some not so good....dated postings though 'stick' ....even though perhaps we'd prefer they not.

Just search some longstanding members old postings someday for fun.....you'll be surprised I bet by their opinions/behaviour/postings....and how time changes folks. Me included.

I am aware of many freely bred and sold questionable morphs like ukarii, lamasi, vanzolini, quinquivittatus, terribilis, azureus, and many more all originating from European importations. More? Of course there is. Dozens more.

It's hard to be perfect when you keep wild animals in glass boxes for 'Fun', isn't it?

Hypocrites need not reply.


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## markpulawski

I was going to reply but now I can't....


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## JPccusa

thedude said:


> Either way, keeping this person from bringing in more of these frogs should be a top priority for the hobby if we really want to be conservation minded, and if we want to continue seeing great strides in the imports coming from companies like Wikiri and Tesoros.


I agree, but I would say "these people" instead of "this person." I bet there are many other problematic sources of questionable frogs out there. 

Nonetheless, that is really hard to do, especially because they are somewhat protected by ignorance (noobs do not know who they are dealing with and what questions to ask vendors) and witch-hunts are not allowed publicly on Dendroboard. Also, some people are more interested in making big bucks than in conservationism. 

If only there was a way of removing the veil of ignorance, at least part of the problem could be solved.


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## BlueRidge

Doh... cold busted, both mods and smugglers. 

I have always found that mods (some) are a bit biased with some more than others but that's typical on any forum. It may be a forum but ultimatelly it's a business, don't want to scare advertisers away.


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## Ghost vivs

Not aware of all the facts?

You do realize WHO was selling them? You knew all too well his reputation, for very long time. So.....Was there ever any doubt about this guys honesty??? 


If you had any thoughts they were legit, you sir were blinded by frogs...

Just saying

Casper








sports_doc said:


> Not everyone was aware of all the facts and some of us have purchased from various vendors over the years, some good, some not so good....dated postings though 'stick' ....even though perhaps we'd prefer they not.
> 
> Just search some longstanding members old postings someday for fun.....you'll be surprised I bet by their opinions/behaviour/postings....and how time changes folks. Me included.
> 
> I am aware of many freely bred and sold questionable morphs like ukarii, lamasi, vanzolini, quinquivittatus, terribilis, azureus, and many more all originating from European importations. More? Of course there is. Dozens more.
> 
> It's hard to be perfect when you keep wild animals in glass boxes for 'Fun', isn't it?
> 
> Hypocrites need not reply.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Isn't there an obvious distinction between buying from a reputable vendor at a show or via a website, versus the the phone call from a buddy that says a friend of a friend has this certain frog..but don't tell anyone I told you this... don't spread this info around. Kinda like standing on a street corner and someone comes up to you and it's "Pssst. hey, you c'mere wanna buy this?" We all should have enough sense and enough morals to know whats clandestine and what's not. Not that freakin hard to figure out really.


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## Woodsman

Just put up a want add for Mysterisos. I anyone has any for sale, let me know.

Richard.


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## BlueRidge

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Isn't there an obvious distinction between buying from a reputable vendor at a show or via a website, versus the the phone call from a buddy that says a friend of a friend has this certain frog..but don't tell anyone I told you this... don't spread this info around. Kinda like standing on a street corner and someone comes up to you and it's "Pssst. hey, you c'mere wanna buy this?" We all should have enough sense and enough morals to know whats clandestine and what's not. Not that freakin hard to figure out really.


True. I mean really, if you saw these on a table at a show most people would grab them up. I would think that someone would see them and say hey aren't these illegal but truly most people would probably grab them. Most people on here even, though they may not admit it.


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## Woodsman

" But MOM, all the other kids are buying smuggled O. sylvaticas from disreputable importers", is not much of an ethical or legal argument for buying smuggled frogs. Have to say.

No one really need worry here, for Db, it's members, and the dart frog hobby have proven themselves both complicit and impotent at dealing with the issue of smuggled frogs so many times over, that no one really need fear any ACTUAL consequences of buying smuggled frogs. Sure, some egos may be bruised, alliances broken, but this is all one big circle jerk of accusations that go nowhere and mean nothing.

At least we have proven oursleves capable of doing NOTHING to actually help these frogs we love so well survive in the wild. The only real pain I feel is in knowing that we have done so much to hurt these frogs we love so well. Loved them to death..

And, yes, I am a hypocrite. Richard.



sports_doc said:


> Not everyone was aware of all the facts and some of us have purchased from various vendors over the years, some good, some not so good....dated postings though 'stick' ....even though perhaps we'd prefer they not.
> 
> Just search some longstanding members old postings someday for fun.....you'll be surprised I bet by their opinions/behaviour/postings....and how time changes folks. Me included.
> 
> I am aware of many freely bred and sold questionable morphs like ukarii, lamasi, vanzolini, quinquivittatus, terribilis, azureus, and many more all originating from European importations. More? Of course there is. Dozens more.
> 
> It's hard to be perfect when you keep wild animals in glass boxes for 'Fun', isn't it?
> 
> Hypocrites need not reply.


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## Ed

Lets try this again... There is enough finger pointing and hysteria in this thread. I'm going back to Shawn's post and there are some frogs in that list that are legal.. for example azureus were legally released to the hobby via NAIB.. so NAIB line azureus are all legal. The later imports by Wattley are a little more questionable but I don't know if anyone saw whether or not he had legal import documents for the frogs or not so that is a question mark at best. With respect to quinquevittatus, there were legal imports of frogs under that name in the 1980s from Peru.. There were a number of species that were assigned that name during that time and it wasn't until later that the name was restricted to Brazilian frogs (see the discussion starting here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-dendrobates-flavovittatus-4.html#post23065 8) So we have to accept them as legal unless you are sure that they were removed from Peru, after Peru shut down export of dendrobatids and prior to any release of those species from UE. 

This then brings us to the question of frogs that were smuggled out of thier country of origin but were confiscated, and offspring of those frogs were then granted legal status by the confiscating country (or another country whose institution recieved captive bred offspring and released them to the pet trade) and exported. So while Colombia never exported them (terribilis), there is a chain of custody providing some form of legality. This is clearly more of a grey area than some of the other ones. 

This then brings us to the final group which are clearly illegal such as the supposed farm raised adult Costa Rican Blue Jeans, and mysteriosus.... this shouldn't need much in the way of discussion..... 

Some comments

Ed


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## JPccusa

Thanks for this post Ed... it explains some of the shades of gray.


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## SmackoftheGods

Okay, the real question for me is, how many posting on here are actually sending a message to the e-mail address provided by WIKIRI instead of just bitching on the forum?

I absolutely would, however I have no first hand knowledge of smuggled sylvatica. Yes, I know who's doing it. But no sylvatica has ever been offered to me save through the WIKIRI project. Doesn't make for a very reliable source now does it? "The my girlfriend's friend's brother's mother has a brother who says that this person is offering illegal frogs...." But I've heard of a few people who were actually offered illegal frogs and who DO have firsthand experience with these people. I will be notifying those people of the statement made by WIKIRI. Will anyone else be notifying others? Does anyone here have first hand experience and is also willing to report them to WIKIRI so LEGAL action can be taken instead of trying (unsuccessfully I might add - be that to mods, administration, or simply a selfish, greedy hobby) to blackball these people?


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## SmackoftheGods

While my above post mostly still applies, I just thought of one brief instance where someone slipped and mentioned something to me. Giving me a small amount of first hand proof.... I'm sending an e-mail.


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## thedude

Considering the person openly offered them on here with pictures, anyone who saw that can say "Hey, it was this guy selling them." This is only because the only legal sylvatica that have come in since 2010 are the Paru. This wasn't hush hush as usual. 

I'm with Casper on this, people shouldn't have trusted this person. And I as well as several others said there was no way these actually left Ecuador legally. I've still never seen any paperwork that supposedly proved it either.


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## A&MGecko

I would like to put my thoughts in to this. I like to say that I am pretty new to the frog world, only been in it for a few years but I have bred geckos for like over 15 years and I can tell you these problems are in every corner of keeping live animals for either business purpose (breeding project) or just for hobby keeping. Rare geckos are smuggled just as much if not more then rare or hard to get frogs. I always respect people that are contrary to the idea of keeping anything in captivity and all animals should be only in the wild, but lets be truth full about one thing, even if you never kept a pet in your life and visited a zoo you still paid a ticket to see animals in cages. I like, instead of doing a conversation about what is legal and what is not to keep, to do a conversation about what people think the best way to reduce smuggling attempt at source. The facts are, people are keeping animals in cages, there are money involved in pet trades and that will motivate people to smuggle forever, you can have a million threads about this, who is buying them or who is not, the problem will not stop. I will compare the gecko trade here, because I am an expert in that trade and can make a better example. Main country that smuggler go to take geckos are Aussie and New Zealand, because these country are completely closed to export/import any wildlife. These countries spend so much money in tracking smugglers is not even funny, some of the geckos that people are smuggling are killed in the thousands every year just by people driving cars and smashing them or people that just get their house infested with these geckos and kill em off the wall. Remember here I am trying to discuss how to reduce smuggling at the minimum possible, eliminate completely I am not sure that will never be possible. So my thinking is this, instead of not allowing exportations why these country don't spend some of the money they spent in stopping smugglers from the act in trying to stop them from the get go. More in detail on what I am thinking, spend some money for facility that collect wild animals and start breeding in captivity these animals for the purpose of exportation. Starting project can be animals that are in abundance in the wild to move as time go to the more rare ones. I have seen geckos from Australia that are commonly considered pests there, over abundance and killed every day in houses like flies, sell for like 200-300 box each in the pet trade, I think an operation well thought can actually become self sustained from the sell of the animals, instead of costing thousands of dollars in to police to stop smuggler make the animals available at even cheaper price to people, who will smuggle anymore if people can get the animals cheaper and legally? Make jobs for many people in your own country that actually make money for the country instead trying to stop the smugglers. Ones you have a starting point then you can move to more delicate species which are becoming in danger of extinction. From what I read some animals will become extinct from the fact that we are killing their habitat, I doubt we can do much about deforestation in Colombia or other counties, but organizing facilities like I mentioned would assure the survival of a particular specie in captivity for possible relocation in suitable other protected areas. I see only benefits in what are my ideas. Example, Colombia right now is one of the country with the most south after dart frogs, if they would organize internally something like I mentioned and invest in to a facilities they could make a killing in the pet trade. Other plus in this idea would be the sharing information on how to keep and breed these animals properly, the more people know how to and breed them successfully the more will be available in the trade the less reason a smuggler will have to smuggle. Hey, facility like these could even provide new feeders to the trade, lets say a particular species does best fed with a particular insect and it can be harvest, make it available to those exportations with the frogs, make sure people buying them have as much informations as possible so they can successfully breed the animals. OK guys, sorry for the very long post, sorry for the many grammar error, I am not native American and my schooling was all done in Italy, hope my concept is understood, I like to see what people think. I like to go behind the ethics of who is doing what, who is buying what from who, if is ok or not to keep animals in cages, it will never stop if money are involved, but what can we do to stop smuggling from the get go. Everything rotates around 1 fact, supply and demands. 
Alberto


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## kitcolebay

I'm new to the hobby too, but, uh...I think "your concept" is mentioned many times in this thread already...it's called Understory Enterprises!
Please correct me if I'm missing the obvious here.

-Chris



A&MGecko said:


> I would like to put my thoughts in to this. I like to say that I am pretty new to the frog world, only been in it for a few years but I have bred geckos for like over 15 years and I can tell you these problems are in every corner of keeping live animals for either business purpose (breeding project) or just for hobby keeping. Rare geckos are smuggled just as much if not more then rare or hard to get frogs. I always respect people that are contrary to the idea of keeping anything in captivity and all animals should be only in the wild, but lets be truth full about one thing, even if you never kept a pet in your life and visited a zoo you still paid a ticket to see animals in cages. I like, instead of doing a conversation about what is legal and what is not to keep, to do a conversation about what people think the best way to reduce smuggling attempt at source. The facts are, people are keeping animals in cages, there are money involved in pet trades and that will motivate people to smuggle forever, you can have a million threads about this, who is buying them or who is not, the problem will not stop. I will compare the gecko trade here, because I am an expert in that trade and can make a better example. Main country that smuggler go to take geckos are Aussie and New Zealand, because these country are completely closed to export/import any wildlife. These countries spend so much money in tracking smugglers is not even funny, some of the geckos that people are smuggling are killed in the thousands every year just by people driving cars and smashing them or people that just get their house infested with these geckos and kill em off the wall. Remember here I am trying to discuss how to reduce smuggling at the minimum possible, eliminate completely I am not sure that will never be possible. So my thinking is this, instead of not allowing exportations why these country don't spend some of the money they spent in stopping smugglers from the act in trying to stop them from the get go. More in detail on what I am thinking, spend some money for facility that collect wild animals and start breeding in captivity these animals for the purpose of exportation. Starting project can be animals that are in abundance in the wild to move as time go to the more rare ones. I have seen geckos from Australia that are commonly considered pests there, over abundance and killed every day in houses like flies, sell for like 200-300 box each in the pet trade, I think an operation well thought can actually become self sustained from the sell of the animals, instead of costing thousands of dollars in to police to stop smuggler make the animals available at even cheaper price to people, who will smuggle anymore if people can get the animals cheaper and legally? Make jobs for many people in your own country that actually make money for the country instead trying to stop the smugglers. Ones you have a starting point then you can move to more delicate species which are becoming in danger of extinction. From what I read some animals will become extinct from the fact that we are killing their habitat, I doubt we can do much about deforestation in Colombia or other counties, but organizing facilities like I mentioned would assure the survival of a particular specie in captivity for possible relocation in suitable other protected areas. I see only benefits in what are my ideas. Example, Colombia right now is one of the country with the most south after dart frogs, if they would organize internally something like I mentioned and invest in to a facilities they could make a killing in the pet trade. Other plus in this idea would be the sharing information on how to keep and breed these animals properly, the more people know how to and breed them successfully the more will be available in the trade the less reason a smuggler will have to smuggle. Hey, facility like these could even provide new feeders to the trade, lets say a particular species does best fed with a particular insect and it can be harvest, make it available to those exportations with the frogs, make sure people buying them have as much informations as possible so they can successfully breed the animals. OK guys, sorry for the very long post, sorry for the many grammar error, I am not native American and my schooling was all done in Italy, hope my concept is understood, I like to see what people think. I like to go behind the ethics of who is doing what, who is buying what from who, if is ok or not to keep animals in cages, it will never stop if money are involved, but what can we do to stop smuggling from the get go. Everything rotates around 1 fact, supply and demands.
> Alberto


----------



## A&MGecko

> I'm new to the hobby too, but, uh...I think "your concept" is mentioned many times in this thread already...it's called Understory Enterprises!
> Please correct me if I'm missing the obvious here.
> -Chris


Well, I am a big fun and a customer of their work, I just don't understand why something like that is not getting organized in a larger scale, mainly from with in the countries with loads of smuggling problems where they could make money instead of spending money hiring people to stop smuggling. A lot of ideas can be put on the table but my concept is to stop smugglers we have to give no reason for those people to smuggle.


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## kitcolebay

I agree. From everything I understand, UE is a win/win. It's great for the hobbyist, the hobby, the conservation/preservation, the smuggling issues, and the economies directly affected. You'd think that overtime more countries and companies will benchmark off their concept and make a tremendous impact.
I'm sure there will always be issues. For example, the endangered species that some collector of rare species has to have off the black market. A lot can be done to lessen the impact, threat, and demand of illegal imports though. Threads like this help educate and prevent the rookies in the hobby, like myself, from contributing to the problem. Also, the few brave ones who step up and call out "the guys on the street corner peddling their goods to the addicts". 
(Note: This is an opinion coming from very little knowledge and experience in the matter)

-Chris


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## sports_doc

There are plenty of old timers on this thread who remember not long ago the lines we bred were known by their prospective importers names....and we freely traded and sold almost all the stock of PDFs as European imports. 

You will see those lines fade away in the next couple years I suspect but I am certain almost every keeper online had or has frogs from European stock. I would also say most if not all found their way (as recent stock has done) with proper import papers into the USA. Sens, Linbo, Kelly, Tarlton, Putnam....remember all those lines? And many more.

We still have many importers bringing animals from europe including obligates.

It is only in very recent times that keepers even have choices other the European imported animals. Most online members with judgmental attitudes don't even realize that, and most of you others know darn well you buy and sell EU animals of uncertain origin.

is dendroboard the judge, jury and enforcer ? B/c I just don't understand folks 
who assume that is our job. 

I also can't see the logic in selling off everything you can't link to a few projects....to other unsuspecting froggers....as a solution to having specific morphs or species in your collections.

I have tons of UE frogs and Panamanian so called farmed animals as well as Suriname imports and the WIKIRI sylvats (9 actually), but all my other animals were old lines, old generations, passed from Bob to Ed to Charlie whomever.

I like having better choices now but they make up only a very small percent of the PDF market out there. 

And while I understand Ed that some Az are legal most were and continue to be imported from Europe just like Regina, Matecho, tricolors, many rare auratus and ...etc. 

With the mass of misinformation on this and other forums daily I would hate to see we all make judgements by 'reputation' and hearsay....

That's not to say I am not sorry for bad choices of my own, I just don't necessarily like seeing all the old lines not associated with a few small projects just die off from hobby neglect. That can only lead to more demand for new/variety....when the variety was already here.


----------



## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> I like, instead of doing a conversation about what is legal and what is not to keep, to do a conversation about what people think the best way to reduce smuggling attempt at source.


see the discussion starting here... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511 as Zoos and goverments have found out the hard way, sustainable harvest often works far better than total protectionism although you have to keep in mind that there are species that cannot be sustainably harvested. 




A&MGecko said:


> These countries spend so much money in tracking smugglers is not even funny, some of the geckos that people are smuggling are killed in the thousands every year just by people driving cars and smashing them or people that just get their house infested with these geckos and kill em off the wall. Remember here I am trying to discuss how to reduce smuggling at the minimum possible, eliminate completely I am not sure that will never be possible.


This is a common rationalization for aquiring rare species in the various hobbies. 



A&MGecko said:


> Starting project can be animals that are in abundance in the wild to move as time go to the more rare ones. I have seen geckos from Australia that are commonly considered pests there, over abundance and killed every day in houses like flies, sell for like 200-300 box each in the pet trade, I think an operation well thought can actually become self sustained from the sell of the animals, instead of costing thousands of dollars in to police to stop smuggler make the animals available at even cheaper price to people, who will smuggle anymore if people can get the animals cheaper and legally?


 
The economic model for this only works if you can get the cost of production cheaper than it costs for the hunter to collect the animal. You may want to get a copy of this and read it PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect 



A&MGecko said:


> Other plus in this idea would be the sharing information on how to keep and breed these animals properly, the more people know how to and breed them successfully the more will be available in the trade the less reason a smuggler will have to smuggle.


While this theory sounds great as a concept (and is a tenet for those who argue conservation through captive breeding) the reality is that it actually has the opposite effect until the cost of producing the frog becomes less than what it costs for the local/native hunter to find and collect the animal. See the links referenced above. 

This also ignores the attitude present in a lot of hobbies that wild caught animals or animals within a generation or two of wild caught are superior since they won't be as inbred... or that there is a percieved need for new blood lines. The reason this attitude is so prevalent in the hobby is because there appears to be little interest in actually sustaining the captive populations as opposed to simply having the frogs and breeding them. 




A&MGecko said:


> but what can we do to stop smuggling from the get go. Everything rotates around 1 fact, supply and demands.
> Alberto


Correct, just not in the way most people believe it to happen. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

sports_doc said:


> You will see those lines fade away in the next couple years I suspect but I am certain almost every keeper online had or has frogs from European stock. I would also say most if not all found their way (as recent stock has done) with proper import papers into the USA. Sens, Linbo, Kelly, Tarlton, Putnam....remember all those lines? And many more.


Actually to have those lines fade away is not something I think of as a good move.. there is a lot of history there and while there is some grey areas, I suspect that a number of those were legal exports like I indicated earlier. 



sports_doc said:


> is dendroboard the judge, jury and enforcer ? B/c I just don't understand folks who assume that is our job.


Shawn, I can see a couple of thought processes here and I'm not entirely sure of where you are going with the statement. Do you mean that suspect or obviously illegal animals shouldn't be called into question by the mods or members of Dendroboard? (I don't think this is what you meant but I have to ask for clarity). 




sports_doc said:


> I also can't see the logic in selling off everything you can't link to a few projects....to other unsuspecting froggers....as a solution to having specific morphs or species in your collections.


See my comment above on losing the history of the hobby. 




sports_doc said:


> And while I understand Ed that some Az are legal most were and continue to be imported from Europe just like Regina, Matecho, tricolors, many rare auratus and ...etc.


This is part of the problem with assuming that frogs from the EU at this time are automatically illegal.. Azureus was distributed to institutions in the EU and no requirements were made that prohibited thier dispersal to the private sector over there. As a result, to assume that the frogs (which were NAIB line) were smuggled into EU should be considered with suspicion. People need to keep in mind that some of the countries in which auratus, and tinctorius are found have been open for export more than once in the last 20 years so to assume that they are illegal is a questionable decision. 

In addition, frogs from French Guiana could have been legally exported to France without reporting to CITES (since it is an overseas region of France. 

These are the reasons I made the earlier comment about finger pointing and hysteria... Not all of it is in a clear black and white picture unlike the obligates that got this thread going or mysteriosus... All of the facts need to be considered before a species, morph or line is declared of tainted stock. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## frogface

thedude said:


> Considering the person openly offered them on here with pictures, anyone who saw that can say "Hey, it was this guy selling them." This is only because the only legal sylvatica that have come in since 2010 are the Paru. This wasn't hush hush as usual.
> 
> I'm with Casper on this, people shouldn't have trusted this person. And I as well as several others said there was no way these actually left Ecuador legally. I've still never seen any paperwork that supposedly proved it either.


Would like to mention that even if that ad was deleted or altered, the original posting remains on the site and the mods should have access to it.


----------



## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> Well, I am a big fun and a customer of their work, I just don't understand why something like that is not getting organized in a larger scale, mainly from with in the countries with loads of smuggling problems where they could make money instead of spending money hiring people to stop smuggling. A lot of ideas can be put on the table but my concept is to stop smugglers we have to give no reason for those people to smuggle.


 
Actually the answer is really simple. Biopiracy. The whole issue over epibatidine put the match to the pile of kindling waiting to be set on fire... and the fact that the US has signed but not ratified the treaty on Convention Biological Diversity. The summation here in wikipedia is actually decent but if you want to read the full site and text Introduction 

Some comments 

Ed


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## sports_doc

Ed I don't know how the original Ad in question was backgrounded....I was told later that all was legit and papers were available for all....which is why the person wasn't being shy about posting them up, or members shy about buying them. 

Let's for a minute assume it wasn't this person that people felt strongly about...but some beloved member....and the person was importing with CITES permission from Europe..as one should....is it our jobs to figure out the specifics or to judge? Or are some people just guilty first? there are many others importing. Not me but I'm asking....

Now, let's assume the animals, or some of them at least, are still around in the hobby....how should they be handled? In light of the WIKIRI statements recently posted? Returned? Donated to institutional program? Added to a hobby sponsored/managed breeding program (TWI) for CB stock availability in future proceeds used for conservation/enforcement or otherwise. Killed off/culled like confiscated drugs?

I'm interested in hearing thoughts people have.

Also, I understand PAru are in Europe now also. Being so variable they r going to be impossible to tract as CB enter the market there. There also seems to be an abundance of rare obligates on the European blogs and FB pages being bred and cared for.
S


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## Ed

sports_doc said:


> Ed I don't know how the original Ad in question was backgrounded....I was told later that all was legit and papers were available for all....which is why the person wasn't being shy about posting them up, or members shy about buying them.


This is part of the disjunct in people's perception. There is a strong belief that if USF&W, and customs let them in with the paperwork then they must be legal without subjecting them to further scrutiny. Whether that was due to ignorance or rose colored glasses is really pretty immaterial. A laundered animal is going to have paper work that is legal, since it was laundered and misrepresented to the authority granting the paperwork (example labled as captive bred or farm raised). The second major issue is that if further information is aquired by USF&W or the exporting country, then the animals and thier offspring can be declared retroactively illegal. People are taking advantage of the fact that USF&W officers are overwhelmed with what they have to know to begin to police imports.. they have to be able to ascertain whether leather, skin, feathers, hunting trophies, wild life, (and the list is virtually endless) are all what they claim and are legal or not. This is a huge strain on the individuals and to be frank, thier guidebooks aren't sufficient to police everything. So it is easy for those who simply want the rare frog(s), to simply wave it away by claiming they must be legal since they weren't confiscated... 



sports_doc said:


> Let's for a minute assume it wasn't this person that people felt strongly about...but some beloved member....and the person was importing with CITES permission from Europe..as one should....is it our jobs to figure out the specifics or to judge? Or are some people just guilty first? there are many others importing. Not me but I'm asking....


My personal opinion is that who it is shouldn't weigh into the equation. 



sports_doc said:


> Now, let's assume the animals, or some of them at least, are still around in the hobby....how should they be handled?


People should be aware that there is a five year statute of limitations for LACY act violations, but that each sale or movement across state lines for the purpose of commerce (trade, sale, barter etc) for the adults or any offspring resets the clock... so if enough time has passed the importer may be able to get off without any repurcussions but the people that bought the frogs could still be in trouble. 

If it blows up, it is going to be USF&Ws decision as to what happens to the frogs... A person should be aware that it may be difficult to donate them to an institution ahead of time since that would require proof of legal aquisition and import... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## frogface

There is a 47 page thread on this person, starting on 5/26/11 and still active as of 9/25/12. The thread is largely discussing unethical, illegal, dishonest, and, just plain 'not a nice thing to do', issues related to this person. How then does one say they didn't know that they should question frog buying deals with them?


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## Ghost vivs

Buying frogs that are well established in the hobby (established longer than most have been in it, myself included) is in NO way similar to this. Comparing them is nothing more than justification, nothing more, nothing less...

Add to the FACTS that this vendor is a crook, tells lie after lie and has been doing these same things over and over again... ( longer than most have been in this hobby also) 

Keep buying your frogs from Jack the ripper, and keep justifying it ...

Bet ya 1,000.00 if they were common frogs, you would have never got them from him, because you know better. You also know what kind of person he is, you just don't say anything because you want 1st dibs on the "good stuff"


Casper


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## Ed

Ghost vivs said:


> Buying frogs that are well established in the hobby (established longer than most have been in it, myself included) is in NO way similar to this. Comparing them is nothing more than justification, nothing more, nothing less...
> 
> Add to the FACTS that this vendor is a crook, tells lie after lie and has been doing these same things over and over again... ( longer than most have been in this hobby also)
> 
> Keep buying your frogs from Jack the ripper, and keep justifying it ...
> 
> Bet ya 1,000.00 if they were common frogs, you would have never got them from him, because you know better. You also know what kind of person he is, you just don't say anything because you want 1st dibs on the "good stuff"
> 
> 
> Casper


Casper,

What does open hostility accomplish in these discussions?? 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods

frogface said:


> There is a 47 page thread on this person, starting on 5/26/11 and still active as of 9/25/12. The thread is largely discussing unethical, illegal, dishonest, and, just plain 'not a nice thing to do', issues related to this person. How then does one say they didn't know that they should question frog buying deals with them?


Following up on that thought, how does one take for granted that because he SAYS he has papers which make them legal he actually DOES have said papers? Kris mentioned, we have a history of inappropriate behavior established. Seems to me when he says "hey! I've got these borderline legal frogs but it's okay I have papers!" a buyer would say "okay, let's see the papers...."


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## JPccusa

SmackoftheGods said:


> Following up on that thought, how does one take for granted that because he SAYS he has papers which make them legal he actually DOES have said papers? Kris mentioned, we have a history of inappropriate behavior established. Seems to me when he says "hey! I've got these borderline legal frogs but it's okay I have papers!" a buyer would say "okay, let's see the papers...."


Pure-breed cats and dogs come with pedigrees and a genealogical tree. Perhaps this is something that reputable frog breeders want to start doing.


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## Ghost vivs

I don't see any hostilities in my post. I see not beating around the bush.

Don't blow smoke up my ass with the justification that you didn't know any better...

I mean, how hard is it to say; look , i know his reputation, but he had what i wanted, so i bought them anyway.

Why can't people man up? 

Casper 





Ed said:


> Casper,
> 
> What does open hostility accomplish in these discussions??
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

JPccusa said:


> Pure-breed cats and dogs come with pedigrees and a genealogical tree. Perhaps this is something that reputable frog breeders want to start doing.


 
That would require the hobby to embrace some method of registering and tracking the frogs... history tells us that while the hobby is big on discussing it, they are poor at getting involved with it... 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## Ed

Ghost vivs said:


> I don't see any hostilities in my post. I see not beating around the bush.
> 
> Don't blow smoke up my ass with the justification that you didn't know any better...
> 
> I mean, how hard is it to say; look , i know his reputation, but he had what i wanted, so i bought them anyway.
> 
> Why can't people man up?
> 
> Casper


 
I'm a very direct person and very blunt and I read your posts as coming off hostile. I'm not blowing any smoke and if you read my comments, I'm clear on people needing to take responsibility... I'm simply pointing out that by coming off hostile, your going to turn people off from 
1) reading the posts since it looks like it is the start of a flame war
2) taking it seriously since it looks like your starting a flame war. 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## cbreon

Ed said:


> That would require the hobby to embrace some method of registering and tracking the frogs... history tells us that while the hobby is big on discussing it, they are poor at getting involved with it...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


While I agree with Ed, it does seem that we are slowly becoming better at tracking lineage. There are several motivators, better breeding/genetic management is one, and another is the frogs that are of known lineage often command a better price, therefore the froglets command a better price and are more sought after.


----------



## Ed

cbreon said:


> While I generally agree with you Ed, I think there have been small improvements partly motvated by money. Forglets with known lineage, at least in some cases, are more valuable and more sought after than frogs of 'unknown' lineage. Furthermore, some do take extra efforts to put together unrealated cb pairs...


The numbers are fairly small... In addition, as to putting together unrelated pairs, this is too often accomplished by getting a frog from breeder A and breeder B with the assumption that they are distantly related however given how the majority of pairing occurs in the hobby (get a group of frogs at a time), there is little or no evidence to prove that these are still not the equivalent to sibling pairings (or that they are both the product of multiple generations of sibling pairings originating from the same few frogs). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

I was going to edit it but this thread is being heavily trafficked....  

A good example are azureus, a huge percentage of the azureus in the hobby are descended from the NAIB release yet we see people listing various breeders as the source of thier "line"...in an attempt to indicate that the animals are not heavily inbred which ignores the main history of these frogs. 

Ed


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## cbreon

Ed said:


> I was going to edit it but this thread is being heavily trafficked....
> 
> A good example are azureus, a huge percentage of the azureus in the hobby are descended from the NAIB release yet we see people listing various breeders as the source of thier "line"...in an attempt to indicate that the animals are not heavily inbred which ignores the main history of these frogs.
> 
> Ed


I agree Ed, many of the older lines are not managed well. But it does seem that for the pumilio imports people are trying to put together unrealated pairs, and when the parents are two WC pairs this is definitely a more easily accomplished task. I like to think that this effort will continue for future generations, but only time will tell...


----------



## Ghost vivs

Wasn't meaning you Ed. Should have been more specific.

On a side note, when you talk bluntly, it sounds fancy. While I'm the total opposite. For me blunt is, well, extremely blunt. 



Casper 




Ed said:


> I'm a very direct person and very blunt and I read your posts as coming off hostile. I'm not blowing any smoke and if you read my comments, I'm clear on people needing to take responsibility... I'm simply pointing out that by coming off hostile, your going to turn people off from
> 1) reading the posts since it looks like it is the start of a flame war
> 2) taking it seriously since it looks like your starting a flame war.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


----------



## nonliteral

Ed said:


> That would require the hobby to embrace some method of registering and tracking the frogs... history tells us that while the hobby is big on discussing it, they are poor at getting involved with it...


It's also worth mentioning that like so many other things, pedigrees and registries are mostly useful for keeping honest people honest. As long as the offspring don't exhibit inherited traits that obviously can't be the result of the stated mating, then you've still only got the breeder's word for which animal was mated to which.


----------



## Ed

cbreon said:


> I agree Ed, many of the older lines are not managed well. But it does seem that for the pumilio imports people are trying to put together unrealated pairs, and when the parents are two WC pairs this is definitely a more easily accomplished task. I like to think that this effort will continue for future generations, but only time will tell...


 
I'm skeptical that this will continue in the F3 and further since 
1) people assume that like bred to like is sufficient (and there are a lot of arguments to that effect)
2) success is going to continue to be the same for further captive bred generations as it was for the originals... For example, at one point, there were a lot of El Dorados floating around including a lot of captive bred offspring.. It seems that those numbers have dropped off quite a bit (just an anecdotal observation)..... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed

nonliteral said:


> It's also worth mentioning that like so many other things, pedigrees and registries are mostly useful for keeping honest people honest. As long as the offspring don't exhibit inherited traits that obviously can't be the result of the stated mating, then you've still only got the breeder's word for which animal was mated to which.


Yes, but if something happens to disprove the pedigree, then you know all of the animals that are affected pretty quickly. 

Ed


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## Ed

While not technically smuggled, there are other sources of illegal frogs.. We can look at castinoticus for an example of a recognized illegal frog since it was released to the pet trade in violation of the import permits and holding permits. When people are aquiring animals that are from an institution particularly if they are getting them directly from the person that recieved the animals from the institution. They should ask to see the animal disposition form. This is effectively a release from the institution which has a IACUC (Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee) committee (which is federally mandated) permitting the sale of the offspring or the animals themselves. Most institutions prohibit the sale of the animals themselves and thier offspring. If the seller does not follow these usage requirements then they are in violation of the LACY act as well as the agreement releasing them to the person. This is part of the violation involving castenoticus.... 

It has also come to my attention through some people I consider reliable that Atelopus zeteki and Nectophrynoides asperginis have made thier way into the hands of some hobbyists via theft from an institution(s).. Unfortunately no one was willing to name names... These frogs are not legal and never will be legal in the hobby and being caught with them is going to be a big issue... This is a problem on many levels since 
1) it will reinforce that the hobby is not to be trusted not only by institutions (who still haven't gotten over the theft of Dyscophus antongilli) 
2) it will reinforce that the hobby isn't to be trusted by law enforcement. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Afemoralis

sports_doc said:


> Now, let's assume the animals, or some of them at least, are still around in the hobby....how should they be handled? In light of the WIKIRI statements recently posted? Returned? Donated to institutional program? Added to a hobby sponsored/managed breeding program (TWI) for CB stock availability in future proceeds used for conservation/enforcement or otherwise. Killed off/culled like confiscated drugs?
> 
> I'm interested in hearing thoughts people have.
> 
> S



I think this is where the conversation should be going. Unlike the rest of our 'grey' history, the situation is fresh, and we should be acting as a group towards a positive goal.

It seems to me:

1) We have individuals (importers) who will be dealt with by the feds/Ecuadorians.

2) We have individuals who purchased frogs that they now know to be illegal/unethical.


Can we create a mechanism to allow class 2 folks to step towards ownership of the problem and responsible action and away from Lacey act violations?

I don't know the situation with Dyscophus, but is our reputation too shot to even think about this? It seems that the hobby does have reputable voices that might have standing to negotiates with the powers involved. Can we approach TWI and/or Understory to make a case for a responsible response to the situation? 

Ed, does that have any precedence? Or are we just deep end of the pool?

We are very good at pointing out what the 'wrong thing to do' is in retrospect. Let's make sure that people have a clearly labeled 'right thing to do' as we move forward.

-Afemoralis


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## Ed

Afemoralis said:


> 2) We have individuals who purchased frogs that they now know to be illegal/unethical.
> 
> Can we create a mechanism to allow class 2 folks to step towards ownership of the problem and responsible action and away from Lacey act violations?


The precedence is that they are either confiscated by USF&W or are released to USF&W. At that point, depending on the species, USF&W may retain ownership which means that if they are then placed in an institutional collection, the institution cannot send them elsewhere without permission or potentially breed them since they won't be able to move them without USF&W permission... There is little to no upside for the institution.... 

If people are lucky USF&W may decline to accept them, or to investigate at which time they are still considered illegal (and could be acted on at a later date (ala castenoticus). 




Afemoralis said:


> I don't know the situation with Dyscophus


Zoos in the very late 1980s collected all of their Dyscophus and sent them to a researcher at a California College. He bred them using hormones and returned some offspring to institutions... however he also took breeding pairs and offspring, reporting them as deceased on the inventory and sold them into the pet trade.. The frogs were then widely dispersed into the hobby. The researcher was arrested and prosecuted... 

,


Afemoralis said:


> but is our reputation too shot to even think about this? It seems that the hobby does have reputable voices that might have standing to negotiates with the powers involved. Can we approach TWI and/or Understory to make a case for a responsible response to the situation?


I doubt that this is a role for TWI or Understory. What it looks like, at least on the surface, is a method to legitimize illegal animals. Not only is this a political quagmire, but it is subject to huge amounts of negative publicity. This could negatively impact TWI's ability to grant research on amphibians and while I don't want to put words into UE, it could impact thier ability to continue working with new species for release. 



Afemoralis said:


> We are very good at pointing out what the 'wrong thing to do' is in retrospect. Let's make sure that people have a clearly labeled 'right thing to do' as we move forward.


Institutions aren't going to want to get involved in this since it is a publicity nightmare... and it would seized upon by animal rights groups and since the stock crash, many institutions live and die on thier gate admissions. They aren't going to want to risk decreasing gate admissions due to negative publicity from these messes. 

I'm not trying to be too negative but some segments of the hobby are perpetually shooting the rest of us in the foot... For example, the hobby complains about not being sold/given Atelopus zeteki so the answer for some is to go and aquire them illegally... Now if they get caught, what message does that provide to the conservation organizations, Panama and USF&W?? This is how Panama already percieves it


> Panamanians view scientific rescue expeditions as an example of U.S. imperialist frog theft.


Fall 2006 - Stories 

Some comments 

Ed


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## A&MGecko

> Originally Posted by sports_doc
> Now, let's assume the animals, or some of them at least, are still around in the hobby....how should they be handled? In light of the WIKIRI statements recently posted? Returned? Donated to institutional program? Added to a hobby sponsored/managed breeding program (TWI) for CB stock availability in future proceeds used for conservation/enforcement or otherwise. Killed off/culled like confiscated drugs?
> 
> I'm interested in hearing thoughts people have.
> 
> S





> I think this is where the conversation should be going. Unlike the rest of our 'grey' history, the situation is fresh, and we should be acting as a group towards a positive goal.
> 
> It seems to me:
> 
> 1) We have individuals (importers) who will be dealt with by the feds/Ecuadorians.
> 
> 2) We have individuals who purchased frogs that they now know to be illegal/unethical.
> 
> 
> Can we create a mechanism to allow class 2 folks to step towards ownership of the problem and responsible action and away from Lacey act violations?
> 
> I don't know the situation with Dyscophus, but is our reputation too shot to even think about this? It seems that the hobby does have reputable voices that might have standing to negotiates with the powers involved. Can we approach TWI and/or Understory to make a case for a responsible response to the situation?
> 
> Ed, does that have any precedence? Or are we just deep end of the pool?
> 
> We are very good at pointing out what the 'wrong thing to do' is in retrospect. Let's make sure that people have a clearly labeled 'right thing to do' as we move forward.


I am not sure here looks like you guys talking about some specific animals. I like to add my thought here since I am new to the frog hobby. 
I did the Hamm show in Germany many years dealing with geckos, I know that in Europe any cites animal sold has to be declared with a document, even if you are a next door neighbors, every baby you produce has to be declared to be able to make cites paper to sell those babies. Authority do a much better job to try to prevent movement of illegal animals, here in US there is absolutely no control for the movement of those animals, ball pythons are the most common example, those are cites but even a kid can buy one at a show. How is possible for the buyer to protect himself from animals he purchase not to be illegal. If the seller would have to send papers to the correct authority to sell babies legally, those authority would have a much easier life to follow the grapevine. Hence I am new to the frog hobby, I did a lot of research on how to keep the frogs correctly, visit Julio, visit Sean Stewart facility in Maryland, went to MD frogger (Ali) also in Maryland, I went to Brooklyn frog, I like to do my research hands on because I think I can learn a lot more from looking then from reading, then I build my vivs also following some of the steps I read on this forum, then I started to buy frogs lastly. I have been buying frogs for like 2 years, and with all honestly I have no idea if all the frogs I bought are/were legal or not. I recently become aware of all these illegal stuff and start to become more and more aware, the idea now that some of my frogs can be illegal with out my knowledge kind of bother me, there is absolutely no protection for the buyer to know were those frogs came from other then the word of the seller. Give fault to the buyer is absolutely not the right thing to do, is like I go to the fish store, buy fish for my tank and then find F&W ringing my door bell and putting me in jail because I have those fish, confiscating my animals and giving me a big arse fine, I absolutely disagree with this step. 
With out any sort of paper trail is impossible to control the sellers, I have bought a nice group of paru from UE, I received with no papers at all, my only prove my animals are legal is what? Yes I have a receipt and invoice from them, but I am not required to give anything to follow if I sell some babies to US customers, or even if I sell the adults, if I went to the source and smuggled some out I could sell with out a problem just by telling them, oh these are legal I bought from UE, there are too many "gray areas" in this hobby. If I bought "#" of frogs, I cant sell more then the same "#" of adult for at least a year and after that I cant follow with babies if I sold the adults, if I have "#" frogs and sell 200 animals next year is obviest those are not result of reproduction but came from somewhere else, with out paper trails. So right now 1.1 legal frog can make 1000 illegal same frog become legal if you are a little smart on how you sell them. Looks like we have to get a police report and finger prints to buy frogs now from someone we don't know, there is no way this is the right thing to do, paper trails is the only way to protect buyers. In Europe a lot of animals: dogs, cats, birds and others need to have a chip in them and documents, like a car registration with a vin number, here looks like to be in the 3rd world compared to Europe in regards to these steps. Only the F&W can insert those chips, you have to call them every time you have new born with in a certain time or those babies are considered illegal, and as a buyer you know you need the registration to buy them. Not possible with frogs but you understand the concept.
Alberto


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## A&MGecko

Ed you give me a lot of homework from those links, lol.
I like to quote this part here.


> see the discussion starting here... Wild Caught vs Captive Bred and Conservation Efforts as Zoos and goverments have found out the hard way, sustainable harvest often works far better than total protectionism although you have to keep in mind that there are species that cannot be sustainably harvested.


Yes I think there is no 1 way to do it, I am sure every country has specialized doctor in every field to study the proper way, the sure thing is that closing border and making the the demands higher and the availability lower is the worse way to stop smugglers, because they can make more money for their loot, hence, the risk is worth to take.
Start with species that are in abundance, killed by overpopulation going over the borders with civilization, make them cites II like ball pythons, only a certain numbers are allowed out every year, find that good number, harvest that population and export, direct income for the country and no damage done to the wildlife, there are many of these example. Move to species which are running out of land but not hard to breed, example "mysterious" (if I am correct these breed sort of easy), harvest to breeding programs and export. Better take a chance in captive breeding programs then let the wild life just run out because they are smuggled, focus on protecting those areas with frogs that breed in a very small number and not many left in the wild, (red list?) but still harvest for local programs just enough to study, try to reproduce the best possible in captivity and export whats possible, I am sure that the price tag even if higher for legal export many people would spend double for the animals to rather get them legally, there are many ways to try to limit smuggling to the list possible, in my opinion. Also as these frogs are sold more people will have them and know that more bloodlines will be possible to buy in the future or trade to others that have bought some. More people will be breeding them and more animals in the market Some trial will not work others will, trial and error, but just sending troops to police locality after locality of these animals to stop smugglers and close the border will never work to save them, in my opinion of course.
Will read more of your links tomorrow and learn more. 
Thanks Ed for the info and links, you better then a goggle search, lol.


----------



## A&MGecko

> The economic model for this only works if you can get the cost of production cheaper than it costs for the hunter to collect the animal. You may want to get a copy of this and read it PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect


OK done with my second study, I have read this link as well.
It does make sense but also this article only talks about harvesting and not adding a breeding concept to it. Those calculations are made also for generic animals, I like to stick to the PDF part of it.
Things that are not in consideration on those calculations which I mentioned.
Harvest not only for exportation but for breeding programs, so you can make more available then harvest alone can.
Exporting captive bred animals will also higher the chance of survival of those animals exported and higher the % of those animals been able to breed in captivity, hence, more available to the market year after year. Honestly, out of 200 frogs smuggled, how many make it in captivity, because of the conditions in which are taken, kept, smuggled, luck of test for parasites, maybe 10%-20% make it, and out of that how many are going to breed successfully? 
PDF are mostly from country that economically are not the most advanced, lets make an example with most sylvatica and histro morph, I am pretty sure the countries of origin, if organized on harvest/breeding program of those and be able to export first hand, not going through this guy and the other, can sell them for a starting price of 500USD each animal, easly in US, Europe and most Asia, they could afford to pay a lot of specialist salary and give em work and put them to good use to preserve their wildlife from pouching. A lot of things can be done, hey lets say you have some real rare, you can only allow to export 10 pairs a year, make a website and adds on PDF forums to visit, make betting auctions for each 1.1 you release legally, I can guarantee you will have betting going over 5k easly on some of those for just 1 pair. I can continue with so many idea, make ecotourism, organize yearly or 2 times a year meetings, invite people in the PDF family, biologist, doctors interested in the subject, take em for tours in your facilities for captive breeding program, teach em or learn from them, share informations, take em for organized hick tours to visit some locations of these animals, organize found racing, people are going to be more willing to donate after visiting and knowing were those money are really going, make betting competitions at these tours, to motivate people to visit, read a post like this on the website, at the end of the tour we will have betting on these pairs, 10 pairs of Koy, 10 of these, 10 of that and so on, your imagination is the limit on how many things can be done.
The end of my comment is, closing the exports and policing those locations of PDF will not stop smuggling, it will only increase the value of those animals in the black market and the will of certain people to obtain those rare to have animals and pay more and more to get them. Changing the morality of the whole planet to stop smuggling and buy smuggled animals will never happen, lets try something else? There are alternative options that people can take to try to stop this, maybe it will not work but some tries must be made or the other way will have only 1 result, extinction of some animals. 
Just my opinions.
I have so many ideas in this matter is not even funny, if one day I would be given an opportunity to run a try and organize some of this efforts would be an awesome challenge. I have had 20 years of thought in my head, lol.
Alberto


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## BlueRidge

Woodsman said:


> Sure, some egos may be bruised, alliances broken, but this is all one big circle jerk of accusations that go nowhere and mean nothing.


Haha, that so sums it up doesn't it.


----------



## BlueRidge

Ed said:


> Casper,
> 
> What does open hostility accomplish in these discussions??
> 
> Ed


Didn't seem hostile, maybe I missed something.


----------



## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> US there is absolutely no control for the movement of those animals, ball pythons are the most common example, those are cites but even a kid can buy one at a show.


That is because CITES only regulates trade between countries. It has no standing in the law for travel within a country. If it was required in the EU, then there must have been some specific legislation enacted by that country (or countries if done jointly) requiring the tracking within the country. So CITES paperwork isn't required or needed to purchase or transport a ball python in the US. Now species on either a state or federal endangered/threatened species list will require either permits from that state and/or USF&W (federal level are captive born wildlife permits) as will species listed as invasive or pest species. 



A&MGecko said:


> How is possible for the buyer to protect himself from animals he purchase not to be illegal.


Educating one's self... basically if there is a country that is closed to export, then you need to check the origin of the frogs. As was mentioned in one of these threads, legal paperwork doesn't prevent laundering of smuggled animals into one or more countries. 



A&MGecko said:


> If the seller would have to send papers to the correct authority to sell babies legally, those authority would have a much easier life to follow the grapevine.


Just fair warning.. this position is one that is not going to be viewed with a lot of favor by many hobbyists...




A&MGecko said:


> Give fault to the buyer is absolutely not the right thing to do, is like I go to the fish store, buy fish for my tank and then find F&W ringing my door bell and putting me in jail because I have those fish, confiscating my animals and giving me a big arse fine, I absolutely disagree with this step.


Ignorance is not an acceptable defence in the American Judicial System... It is very easy to become informed... See for example Dendrobates.org - Smuggling 


Dendrobates.org - Smuggling In Europe a lot of animals: dogs, cats, birds and others need to have a chip in them and documents, like a car registration with a vin number, here looks like to be in the 3rd world compared to Europe in regards to these steps. Only the F&W can insert those chips, you have to call them every time you have new born with in a certain time or those babies are considered illegal, and as a buyer you know you need the registration to buy them. Not possible with frogs but you understand the concept.
Alberto[/QUOTE]

In the US, virtually any vet can microchip a dog or a cat... many rescues also do it.. SO it isn't F&W doing it (and they would probably consider it a burden on thier resources... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> Start with species that are in abundance, killed by overpopulation going over the borders with civilization, make them cites II like ball pythons, only a certain numbers are allowed out every year, find that good number, harvest that population and export, direct income


 
Ball pythons are not a good example since the original petition to ranch ball pythons as "sustainable" did not contain any information as to whether or not the population can sustain the pressures... See http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cites/pdf/studies/royal_python_ghana.pdf
Part of the problem is that there is no data on recruitment so there isn't any information that pulling that many eggs and offspring from the wild population doesn't have a long range impact... 

In addition, the numbers of ball pythons exported has held steady or increased slightly... so to claim it reduces demand for wild caught animals (which the ranched animals effectively are) is incorrect at best... You can look at the numbers on the CITES trade database. 



A&MGecko said:


> the country and no damage done to the wildlife, there are many of these example. Move to species which are running out of land but not hard to breed, example "mysterious" (if I am correct these breed sort of easy), harvest to breeding programs and export.


See my comments on ball pythons... 



A&MGecko said:


> Better take a chance in captive breeding programs then let the wild life just run out because they are smuggled,


This is nothing more than a rationalization to collect animals for the pet trade.



A&MGecko said:


> focus on protecting those areas with frogs that breed in a very small number and not many left in the wild, (red list?) but still harvest for local programs just enough to study, try to reproduce the best possible in captivity and export whats possible, I am sure that the price tag even if higher for legal export many people would spend double for the animals to rather get them legally,


The economic model actually is the opposite and we can see plenty of examples of that in the hobby.... People will get wild caught animals because they are cheaper... A classic example played out here on the forum, years ago (2003-4), when Seth Doty bred Melanophryniscus stelzneri and couldn't sell the toadlets because the wild caughts were cheaper... (and we can go back to the ball python and look at the import prices of "bush babies (less than ten dollars) versus captive bred animals in the states....). 



A&MGecko said:


> there are many ways to try to limit smuggling to the list possible, in my opinion. Also as these frogs are sold more people will have them and know that more bloodlines will be possible to buy in the future or trade to others that have bought some. More people will be breeding them and more animals in the market Some trial will not work others will, trial and error, but just sending troops to police locality after locality of these animals to stop smugglers and close the border will never work to save them, in my opinion of course.
> Will read more of your links tomorrow and learn more.
> Thanks Ed for the info and links, you better then a goggle search, lol.


Again, this is not how it plays out in the hobby.. For example several years ago, there was an importation of "farm raised" Costa Rican blue jeans pumilio brought in via Europe.... Now Costa Rica doesn't have any farms producing "farmed" blue jeans... yet despite knowing this, all of the frogs were rapidly aquired... Now it isn't like blue jeans weren't around...there are people that have been breeding them since the early 1990s.. They just weren't always immediately available. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> Harvest not only for exportation but for breeding programs, so you can make more available then harvest alone can.


This is not a given and if we look at the economics, sustainably harvest animals are going to be far less expensive. Typically sustainably harvested animals are managed at a level of maximal productivity (since your removing animals that would either be pushed into marginal habitat or population sinks... With respect to obligate egg feeders increasing the density of tadpole depositions sites significantly changes the carrying capacity of a population since that it is a limiting resource. Oecologia, Volume 81, Number 2 - SpringerLink

It is also possible to increase one species over another since there is competition for different tadpole sites see An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie 

In these cases it is going to be much more cost effective to enhance the carrying capacity of the natural habitat and harvest a set number of froglets than to attempt to set up offsite breeding facilities since the overhead of any facility is going to be much much greater... and a facility doesn't mean that the original ecosystem is going to be protected. The locals who can make a decent amount of money legally are going to not allow smugglers to harvest frogs.... 



A&MGecko said:


> Exporting captive bred animals will also higher the chance of survival of those animals exported and higher the % of those animals been able to breed in captivity, hence, more available to the market year after year. Honestly, out of 200 frogs smuggled, how many make it in captivity, because of the conditions in which are taken, kept, smuggled, luck of test for parasites, maybe 10%-20% make it, and out of that how many are going to breed successfully?


Your mixing a couple of things into this paragraph... the first is that your automatically assuming captive bred frogs are going to survive shipping and acclimation better.. This is not a given. The offspring are going to be F1s so there can still be significant levels of maladaption to captivity, how they are shipped and how they are cared for pre and post shipment are also significant.... Institutions that collect wild animals for use, do not see the level of death during aquisition and shipment as shipments for the pet trade. The main difference is care during collection and shipment (heck, wild caught Atelopus zeteki produced a fertile clutch during the plane ride back from Panama during the first collecting trip. That was totally due to care during collection and transport (see the link I provided above on smuggling). The care provided by smugglers and collection for the pet trade is often strikingly simular... For the pet trade.. local guy catches animals and holds them until a buyer arrives, buyer takes frogs and makes round to get enough to make a shipment worthwhile, then takes them to exporter to sell, exporter holds until enough animals are collected to make a shipment to importer, importer recieves animals and holds them while selling them to either resellers or private individual... There are too many steps where it can go wrong for the frogs... The pattern is similar for smugglers... 



A&MGecko said:


> ou can only allow to export 10 pairs a year, make a website and adds on PDF forums to visit, make betting auctions for each 1.1 you release legally, I can guarantee you will have betting going over 5k easly on some of those for just 1 pair.


And this would significantly drive smuggling since you would have legal animals already in the hobby to let them launder them.... 



A&MGecko said:


> I can continue with so many idea, make ecotourism, organize yearly or 2 times a year meetings, invite people in the PDF family, biologist, doctors interested in the subject, take em for tours in your facilities for captive breeding program, teach em or learn from them, share informations, take em for organized hick tours to visit some locations of these animals, organize found racing,


A lot of these things have been done and oddly enough we even see people using these sorts of operations to illegally collect animals for example Marc Staniszewski was arrested in 1999 after lecturing at International Amphibian Day, with 60 illegally collected salamanders (some endangered) in his possession at customs. He had gotten tours from various enthusiasts in the hobby, stayed an extra day in the area and went back and collected animals to be smuggled out.. He also had smuggled salamanders in to the states and sold them... See for example http://lists.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A3=...&P=230233&B=--&T=text/plain; charset=us-ascii 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Afemoralis

sports_doc said:


> Now, let's assume the animals, or some of them at least, are still around in the hobby....how should they be handled? In light of the WIKIRI statements recently posted? Returned? Donated to institutional program? Added to a hobby sponsored/managed breeding program (TWI) for CB stock availability in future proceeds used for conservation/enforcement or otherwise. Killed off/culled like confiscated drugs?
> 
> I'm interested in hearing thoughts people have.



So, again, what is the positive move forward?

We have a saying in my family: "more light, less heat". We also believe that you have no right to complain about something unless you are willing to do something about it.

As a community, froggers have never been short on words. They have been short on action.

Time to step up. What are you going to do about it?


-Afemoralis


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## Ed

Afemoralis said:


> So, again, what is the positive move forward?
> 
> We have a saying in my family: "more light, less heat". We also believe that you have no right to complain about something unless you are willing to do something about it.
> 
> As a community, froggers have never been short on words. They have been short on action.
> 
> Time to step up. What are you going to do about it?
> 
> 
> -Afemoralis


There are a number of things people can actually do to help.. 

1) become educated on the topics.. 

2) don't get on a forum and make statements that frogs that were smuggled into the country should be made legal because they are here (indicating there is further demand and market for them)

3) support a real conservation organization (see Examples of conservation organizations include but are not limited to 
Tree Walkers International http://www.treewalkers.org/
Costa Rican Amphibian Research Center http://www.cramphibian.com/
Association Mitsinj http://www.mitsinjo.org/
Understory Enterprises http://www.understoryenterprises.com/

4) sustainably manage the populations that are in country to reduce the idea that new genetics are constantly needed to combat inbreeding 
(Programs for Population Management
Frog Tracks http://frogtracks.net/GlobalInfo.aspx
Amphibian Stewardship Network (ASN) http://www.treewalkers.org/amphibian-steward-network) 

5) don't purchase frogs that you suspect are illegal. Most of the one's being bred in captivity are available if you are willing to wait. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## JPccusa

Ed said:


> 5) don't purchase frogs that you suspect are illegal. Most of the one's being bred in captivity are available if you are willing to wait.


Tell me about it! 

Thanks for this post Ed. The hobby is talking about it, and is bringing light into a dark subject. The next step is moving from talking into acting (a HUGE step). Keep these topics afloat and the bad apples in check.


----------



## Ed

JPccusa said:


> The hobby is talking about it, and is bringing light into a dark subject. .


Unfortunately this is one of the reoccuring topics.. most of which have been long in depth threads, yet when suspect frogs show up on the market they are rapidly grabbed up........ Maybe it's just my cynical side coming out but I suspect we won't see any real change unless something big happens like a major bust (like the one that occured during Operation Shellshock..). 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Peter Keane

Ed said:


> Mark how many different thumbnail species/populations/morphs do you think were brought in as another species before they were split from that group as a new species.. such as when a bunch were lumped under quinquevittatus?
> 
> Ed


Soooo true without the seller offering a detailed description, ordering a quinquevittatus back in the day (late 70's & 80's) was a crap-shoot!

Peter Keane


----------



## Peter Keane

Ed said:


> Lets try this again... There is enough finger pointing and hysteria in this thread. I'm going back to Shawn's post and there are some frogs in that list that are legal.. for example azureus were legally released to the hobby via NAIB.. so NAIB line azureus are all legal. The later imports by Wattley are a little more questionable but I don't know if anyone saw whether or not he had legal import documents for the frogs or not so that is a question mark at best. With respect to quinquevittatus, there were legal imports of frogs under that name in the 1980s from Peru.. There were a number of species that were assigned that name during that time and it wasn't until later that the name was restricted to Brazilian frogs (see the discussion starting here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-dendrobates-flavovittatus-4.html#post23065 8) So we have to accept them as legal unless you are sure that they were removed from Peru, after Peru shut down export of dendrobatids and prior to any release of those species from UE.
> 
> This then brings us to the question of frogs that were smuggled out of thier country of origin but were confiscated, and offspring of those frogs were then granted legal status by the confiscating country (or another country whose institution recieved captive bred offspring and released them to the pet trade) and exported. So while Colombia never exported them (terribilis), there is a chain of custody providing some form of legality. This is clearly more of a grey area than some of the other ones.
> 
> This then brings us to the final group which are clearly illegal such as the supposed farm raised adult Costa Rican Blue Jeans, and mysteriosus.... this shouldn't need much in the way of discussion.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


There was another importation of azureus that was hand delivered from Holland to select ISSD members. This was the first azureus blood in the hobby.

Peter Keane


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## A&MGecko

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
US there is absolutely no control for the movement of those animals, ball pythons are the most common example, those are cites but even a kid can buy one at a show.



> That is because CITES only regulates trade between countries. It has no standing in the law for travel within a country. If it was required in the EU, then there must have been some specific legislation enacted by that country (or countries if done jointly) requiring the tracking within the country. So CITES paperwork isn't required or needed to purchase or transport a ball python in the US. Now species on either a state or federal endangered/threatened species list will require either permits from that state and/or USF&W (federal level are captive born wildlife permits) as will species listed as invasive or pest species.


Change the low, to help track animals, in Europe is required to give a document for every cites animal you sell/breed even if is cites 2.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
How is possible for the buyer to protect himself from animals he purchase not to be illegal.



> Educating one's self... basically if there is a country that is closed to export, then you need to check the origin of the frogs. As was mentioned in one of these threads, legal paperwork doesn't prevent laundering of smuggled animals into one or more countries.


Well, I can admit I haven't done enough at start of my frog adventure, but it was only because my experience with geckos, Aussie and New Zealand have been closed for long time but there is absolutely no issues owing geckos from their country, everyone has animals from there and you can export them no problem (unless cites of course) with out any control of were the animals came from. Bearded dragon is first example, you can buy at petco and there never was a legal export for them. Everything that is out is legal to own and sell, and there is no custom to ask where the animals are from to the seller, the frog community seams to be quite a lot different in this matter as I am learning. At the end I have learned even in the frog community there is a lot of different opinion on the same person, you ask the seller he tells you they are legal, you ask one person and he vouch for the guy, you ask another and he tells you the guy most likely sell illegal, is impossible to know the truth in some circumstances. I have also read debates on forums about 1 person owing/selling something "iffy" and there you have a battle with saying this is true this is not, and so on, is not an easy task.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
If the seller would have to send papers to the correct authority to sell babies legally, those authority would have a much easier life to follow the grapevine.



> Just fair warning.. this position is one that is not going to be viewed with a lot of favor by many hobbyists...


Everyone I knew in the gecko business in Europe was complaining about this, but hey, they had to give papers to sell house geckos for 20 euro each, the goal is to protect the wildlife. I have met people saving gecko eggs to prove those animals he was selling he hatched and is also mandatory to freeze cites animals that die until one of F&W can come to your facility to confirm then you can dispose of those dead animals and papers related. Any extra work the hobbyist has to go through to sell their animals is not going to be a good news, but if it help in the final object should be accepted if you care to battle smuggling.


Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
Give fault to the buyer is absolutely not the right thing to do, is like I go to the fish store, buy fish for my tank and then find F&W ringing my door bell and putting me in jail because I have those fish, confiscating my animals and giving me a big arse fine, I absolutely disagree with this step.



> Ignorance is not an acceptable defence in the American Judicial System... It is very easy to become informed... See for example Dendrobates.org - Smuggling


I agree, the low does not require for a buyer of animals that do not require a paper to go and torture the guy for the truth, as I mentioned before, there are many feedback regarding one person, if the animals are in the market and the guy tells you they are legal and you see many people that have them and sell them what is the buyer suppose to do more. The animals are legal to own even if the country of origin has closed exportations. I mean, then no one is suppose to buy anything from others if they come from those counties is the only way to be sure you are buying legal animals.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
Smuggling In Europe a lot of animals: dogs, cats, birds and others need to have a chip in them and documents, like a car registration with a vin number, here looks like to be in the 3rd world compared to Europe in regards to these steps. Only the F&W can insert those chips, you have to call them every time you have new born with in a certain time or those babies are considered illegal, and as a buyer you know you need the registration to buy them. Not possible with frogs but you understand the concept.
Alberto



> In the US, virtually any vet can microchip a dog or a cat... many rescues also do it.. SO it isn't F&W doing it (and they would probably consider it a burden on thier resources...


Those chips here in US are mainly for the owner benefit, in Europe are mandatory. You are walking your dog and police can ask you for the document for the dog (registration). Vets can do it as well as long those paper mean something for the authority and is not only a paper to use for a prove of ownership. Tracking things up requires to make many unhappy people, more work, can't win a battle with out fighting.
Alberto


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## A&MGecko

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
Start with species that are in abundance, killed by overpopulation going over the borders with civilization, make them cites II like ball pythons, only a certain numbers are allowed out every year, find that good number, harvest that population and export, direct income




> Ball pythons are not a good example since the original petition to ranch ball pythons as "sustainable" did not contain any information as to whether or not the population can sustain the pressures... See http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cite...thon_ghana.pdf
> Part of the problem is that there is no data on recruitment so there isn't any information that pulling that many eggs and offspring from the wild population doesn't have a long range impact...
> In addition, the numbers of ball pythons exported has held steady or increased slightly... so to claim it reduces demand for wild caught animals (which the ranched animals effectively are) is incorrect at best... You can look at the numbers on the CITES trade database.


Yes you are right, we can't compare with ball python, I was using it as an example on what can be done for species that are in abundance in the wild. Sure there is not enough information on what that would do in the long run for the wildlife population, hence we know for sure what does cutting trees, expanding concrete cities and smuggling do.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
the country and no damage done to the wildlife, there are many of these example. Move to species which are running out of land but not hard to breed, example "mysterious" (if I am correct these breed sort of easy), harvest to breeding programs and export.



> See my comments on ball pythons...


I do not see the relation here with ball pythons.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
Better take a chance in captive breeding programs then let the wild life just run out because they are smuggled,



> This is nothing more than a rationalization to collect animals for the pet trade.


Your point of view, I respect. More captive breeding programs more animals available for pet trade, less demand for smuggling is my opinion. I do not think is something I like the idea of, but I am convinced it can help.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
focus on protecting those areas with frogs that breed in a very small number and not many left in the wild, (red list?) but still harvest for local programs just enough to study, try to reproduce the best possible in captivity and export whats possible, I am sure that the price tag even if higher for legal export many people would spend double for the animals to rather get them legally,



> The economic model actually is the opposite and we can see plenty of examples of that in the hobby.... People will get wild caught animals because they are cheaper... A classic example played out here on the forum, years ago (2003-4), when Seth Doty bred Melanophryniscus stelzneri and couldn't sell the toadlets because the wild caughts were cheaper... (and we can go back to the ball python and look at the import prices of "bush babies (less than ten dollars) versus captive bred animals in the states....).


Are we talking about legal exported animals here? If WC legal animals are cheaper then captive bred then is a different story, unfortunately breeders have to make some choices in those cases. Example, electric blue geckos have been selling for long time WC for 10-15 box each, no one was breeding them because was not worth it, border closed now, no more allowed, well price of those going up and up, I wish I had set myself with 20 female now, they are easy to breed. But hey, things like this happens all the time in pet trade, WC cheaper, either keep for hobby, breed not for profit and sit on those animals, or sell, then you find yourself like me, border closed and none available, lol. If WC selling for cheaper are illegal then you as a breeder of legal animals have to hope those illegal movement get caught and stopped by authorities. You can only control your choices not others and make the smartest move you can make accordingly to whats happening.
BTW, bush babies ball pythons have ticks, parasites and don't eat white mice and need to be trained to but not easy, I made import of those as well, I rather spend $30 for a CB then $15 for a bush baby, lol.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
there are many ways to try to limit smuggling to the list possible, in my opinion. Also as these frogs are sold more people will have them and know that more bloodlines will be possible to buy in the future or trade to others that have bought some. More people will be breeding them and more animals in the market Some trial will not work others will, trial and error, but just sending troops to police locality after locality of these animals to stop smugglers and close the border will never work to save them, in my opinion of course.
Will read more of your links tomorrow and learn more. 
Thanks Ed for the info and links, you better then a goggle search, lol.



> Again, this is not how it plays out in the hobby.. For example several years ago, there was an importation of "farm raised" Costa Rican blue jeans pumilio brought in via Europe.... Now Costa Rica doesn't have any farms producing "farmed" blue jeans... yet despite knowing this, all of the frogs were rapidly aquired... Now it isn't like blue jeans weren't around...there are people that have been breeding them since the early 1990s.. They just weren't always immediately available.


I understand, you can't make choices for others, if more legal BJs were available maybe those "farm raised" would have been passed upon or not even considered for "exportations" from the get go. If we find a way to make more demands happy with legal animals there are less "farm raised" request. I mentioned before we will never see smuggling stop because no one will buy them, you can't change the world attitude about this, all my concepts are to help reduce the smuggling. I can also make you an example, everyone wanted nephrurus wheeleri, is a knob tail gecko from Aussie, somehow they appeared in the trade, not sure if legally or not I can only assume, people bought them top dollars, I mean 6-7k a pair, they worth now $250 a pair and I bet you no smuggler will take the risk anymore. People got them, breed them and more and more were available in the trade and the price just drooped to a point that is not worth to smuggle anymore. Went from 6-7k a pair to $250 a pair with in 10 years or maybe less, it takes time but I also have experience that making more available legally helps a lot, maybe not in every case of every species.
Alberto


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## A&MGecko

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
Harvest not only for exportation but for breeding programs, so you can make more available then harvest alone can.



> This is not a given and if we look at the economics, sustainably harvest animals are going to be far less expensive. Typically sustainably harvested animals are managed at a level of maximal productivity (since your removing animals that would either be pushed into marginal habitat or population sinks... With respect to obligate egg feeders increasing the density of tadpole depositions sites significantly changes the carrying capacity of a population since that it is a limiting resource. Oecologia, Volume 81, Number 2 - SpringerLink


Is not a given, if the exportations are only controlled by the country of origin which controls those breeding facility and harvesting the price of either would be the same, and also the harvesting number needs to be controlled by people with the knowledge about the species and territory available to them so they can control damage and harvesting number can always be adjusted considering those circumstances. If the country allows harvesting and breeding exportation done from different agency of course the price will be cheaper for harvesting, hence no one will buy the CB animals.



> It is also possible to increase one species over another since there is competition for different tadpole sites see An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


Same as before, these controls must be done by local experts.



> In these cases it is going to be much more cost effective to enhance the carrying capacity of the natural habitat and harvest a set number of froglets than to attempt to set up offsite breeding facilities since the overhead of any facility is going to be much much greater... and a facility doesn't mean that the original ecosystem is going to be protected. The locals who can make a decent amount of money legally are going to not allow smugglers to harvest frogs....


In any of the opinion I am stating there is no guarantee either way, yes the cost are higher for facility, but the situation now is close the exportation and pay people to go after smuggler, which are often their own citizen to make money, or open exportations controlled by your govern, make money selling frogs harvest and breed in your facility, give job to your own citizen and I am sure they will be the first to report smugglers even if their friend because they are taking their bred and butter. Make economic better in those ares giving jobs which can be self sustained by the sell of the animals can be even a profit for the country other then a loss of money and animals anyway because of smuggling.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
Exporting captive bred animals will also higher the chance of survival of those animals exported and higher the % of those animals been able to breed in captivity, hence, more available to the market year after year. Honestly, out of 200 frogs smuggled, how many make it in captivity, because of the conditions in which are taken, kept, smuggled, luck of test for parasites, maybe 10%-20% make it, and out of that how many are going to breed successfully?



> Your mixing a couple of things into this paragraph... the first is that your automatically assuming captive bred frogs are going to survive shipping and acclimation better.. This is not a given. The offspring are going to be F1s so there can still be significant levels of maladaption to captivity, how they are shipped and how they are cared for pre and post shipment are also significant.... Institutions that collect wild animals for use, do not see the level of death during aquisition and shipment as shipments for the pet trade. The main difference is care during collection and shipment (heck, wild caught Atelopus zeteki produced a fertile clutch during the plane ride back from Panama during the first collecting trip. That was totally due to care during collection and transport (see the link I provided above on smuggling). The care provided by smugglers and collection for the pet trade is often strikingly simular... For the pet trade.. local guy catches animals and holds them until a buyer arrives, buyer takes frogs and makes round to get enough to make a shipment worthwhile, then takes them to exporter to sell, exporter holds until enough animals are collected to make a shipment to importer, importer recieves animals and holds them while selling them to either resellers or private individual... There are too many steps where it can go wrong for the frogs... The pattern is similar for smugglers...


Yes, I am assuming captive bred F1 can have a little advantage over harvest animals in surviving in captivity, one main reason would be condition in which they should have been kept and control of parasites. Also exportation could be done not to quantity and needing of the exchange of so many hands but done even for a pair to a private willing to pay shipping cost, the animals should go from facility to airport, from arrival to owners directly to their viv. I have done exportations in Europe many times, a pair would cost like 2-300 USD to ship including all documents and clearing customs, the larger the box the more the cost of course. Smugglers don't check for condition, they just take what they find, throw them in plastic bottle or who know what else, and they go from worse to worse before they reach destination, I am pretty convinced that there will be no comparison of the final product from organized legal exportation then smuggling, this is just my opinion as well.

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
ou can only allow to export 10 pairs a year, make a website and adds on PDF forums to visit, make betting auctions for each 1.1 you release legally, I can guarantee you will have betting going over 5k easly on some of those for just 1 pair.



> And this would significantly drive smuggling since you would have legal animals already in the hobby to let them launder them....


Money drive smugglers, people are willing to pay the price because they are rare in the hobby and hard to get, is already happening now and has been happening for as long as I have been in the hobby, the only time I have seen people stopping from buying animals is when they not hard and rare to get anymore. Smuggling has not stopped because those animals are illegal or the country has closed the border. It only makes them more rare and expensive in the black market, hence more try to smuggle. The geckos that people try to smuggle the most are Zew Zealand geckos, guess why, rare, country closed all the borders and some of those can sell even for 50k a pair in the black market, if you are a smuggler, which ones you go for, the 15USD electric blue geckos or the New Zealand ones when the consequences are the same for the crime?

Originally Posted by A&MGecko 
I can continue with so many idea, make ecotourism, organize yearly or 2 times a year meetings, invite people in the PDF family, biologist, doctors interested in the subject, take em for tours in your facilities for captive breeding program, teach em or learn from them, share informations, take em for organized hick tours to visit some locations of these animals, organize found racing,



> A lot of these things have been done and oddly enough we even see people using these sorts of operations to illegally collect animals for example Marc Staniszewski was arrested in 1999 after lecturing at International Amphibian Day, with 60 illegally collected salamanders (some endangered) in his possession at customs. He had gotten tours from various enthusiasts in the hobby, stayed an extra day in the area and went back and collected animals to be smuggled out.. He also had smuggled salamanders in to the states and sold them... See for example http://lists.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A3=i...arset=us-ascii


I am enjoying a smart and well informed conversation with you Ed, but this is the quote I disagree with you the most, you are making from minority a normal action. I am sure most of those enthusiast hobbyist in the tour have donated money to the cause and even had spent thousands of dollars if they could have bought a few animals for their collection legally. Do not use a case of 1 idiot to make it into a normality factor, I can assure you the world is not that bad yet, do not throw a bunch of people in jail because one has committed a crime, there will always be cases like that but I am pretty sure for 1 case like that there will be 100 donating to the cause.

Alberto


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## PumilioTurkey

Not sure if it was mentioned already,

but there is a strong belief that wild-caught frogs are bigger and in general more beautiful than CB frogs.

So even if there were programs with CB frogs imported, a lot of people will still buy smuggled ones if there aren't enough legally imported ones.


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## A&MGecko

> Not sure if it was mentioned already,
> but there is a strong belief that wild-caught frogs are bigger and in general more beautiful than CB frogs.
> So even if there were programs with CB frogs imported, a lot of people will still buy smuggled ones if there aren't enough legally imported ones.


I am pretty sure people who buy WC frogs do not buy them to display let them die and buy new ones. People who buy these frog buy to breed them, so the result of having frog losing some color and size for CB would eventually happen even with WC. What my ideas are, will not make the WC smuggled frog disappear in 1 season, takes time and effort, CB program frog will make the demand less for WC every year. CB programs in location will have the largest availability of bloodline, collecting 1 male alone from a different location will give you one whole new line, CB programs will have to know how to do it right, years after years people will want to buy fresh bloodlines which would be always available with these programs. I guarantee you that any collector/breeder of frogs that have legal animals from country with closed border would consider to buy a smuggled male of that particular species for the benefits of the bloodline/collection. These programs can always offer fresh new line year after year with little effort.
Personal experience, I bought large group of Paru from UE, my goal would be maybe to make 2 breeding group, if all goes well with sexing and get both group going. I will still want to buy/trade for new bloodlines few years down the line. In my opinion what UE is doing is a great benefit for the Paru in the wild, I am sure smuggling of those frogs will go down and down thanks to their effort we will have access to new line down the road, in my opinion what they are doing is already making a big impact to the smuggling of Paru now, hence my opinions in this case is already working. 
Alberto


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## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> I am pretty sure people who buy WC frogs do not buy them to display let them die and buy new ones. People who buy these frog buy to breed them, so the result of having frog losing some color and size for CB would eventually happen even with WC .


The numbers of imported frogs put this arguement in serious doubt. I suspect you are basing this opinion on the forums where most are dedicated hobbyists and aren't paying attention to the hobby overall.. 
For example with respect to auratus we see the following legal imports of wild collected frogs (from the CITES trade database)

year #imported year #imported year #imported
2000 2099 2004 6283 2008 8370
2001 505 2005 8442
2002 3834 2006 8184
2003 4556 2007 7353

The number for pumilio is just as significant with 22,000 between 2004-2009....

So if your statement is valid given that the frogs can live for 10-20 years (upper end for auratus, lower end for pumilio), we should be awash in captive bred animals from both species as well as the wild caught animals... yet that isn't what we see... 


V What my ideas are, will not make the WC smuggled frog disappear in 1 season, takes time and effort, CB program frog will make the demand less for WC every year. [/quote] 

This is actually opposite of the functioning economic model since the wild caught smuggled frogs cost less to the sellers than a captive bred frog.. We see this with smuggled auratus... 



A&MGecko said:


> CB programs in location will have the largest availability of bloodline, collecting 1 male alone from a different location will give you one whole new line, CB programs will have to know how to do it right, years after years people will want to buy fresh bloodlines which would be always available with these programs.


Using animals from disparate locations is not necessarily a good idea.. you might want to research outbreeding depression in frogs... this is a good start.... to get you started see http://www.environmental-expert.com/Files\6063\articles\5372\LV68M29432114864.pdf 



A&MGecko said:


> I guarantee you that any collector/breeder of frogs that have legal animals from country with closed border would consider to buy a smuggled male of that particular species for the benefits of the bloodline/collection. These programs can always offer fresh new line year after year with little effort.


If the hobby managed thier animals for maximal genetic diversity then the need for new genes from the wild could be significantly reduced (potentially only one animal every several years). However, I am going to note that you are confirming that captive animals increase demand for wild caught animals, smuggled or not... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> Originally Posted by A&MGecko
> Harvest not only for exportation but for breeding programs, so you can make more available then harvest alone can.


Again, as I think I mentioned above that this is going to 
1) cost more than sustainably harvested animals
2) potentially negatively impact local groups providing sustainably harvested animals since it is going to divert funds from them, potentially 
depressing thier sales... The most effective programs are run as local as possible. 



A&MGecko said:


> Is not a given, if the exportations are only controlled by the country of origin which controls those breeding facility and harvesting the price of either would be the same,


This is an unsustainable economic model. It is going to cost more to run it than it will bring in.. meaning that 
1) it is highly susceptiable to political denial of funds
2) creates competition betwenn the sustainably harvested animals and those being produced in facilities. 
3) diverts funds from the local populations which in turn results in decreased revenue, which decreases incentive to mange the habitat and species sustainably. 



A&MGecko said:


> and also the harvesting number needs to be controlled by people with the knowledge about the species and territory available to them so they can control damage and harvesting number can always be adjusted considering those circumstances. If the country allows harvesting and breeding exportation done from different agency of course the price will be cheaper for harvesting, hence no one will buy the CB animals.


Not as complicated as you are making... it is well established that density of the frogs is related to tadpole depositions sites which is one of the reasons, in some species like pumilio and auratus, trash dumps can signfiicantly increase the local population. A census of the population before and after resource supplementation can give a guideline of how many animals can be harvested from a population... Or as an alternative, the requirement could be to harvest a set number of metamorphic animals and allow them to complete metamorphosis in a controlled enviroment... this would ensure that breeders aren't removed from the population while still allowing recruitment (and no disruption of territories). 




A&MGecko said:


> In any of the opinion I am stating there is no guarantee either way, yes the cost are higher for facility, but the situation now is close the exportation and pay people to go after smuggler, which are often their own citizen to make money, or open exportations controlled by your govern, make money selling frogs harvest and breed in your facility, give job to your own citizen and I am sure they will be the first to report smugglers even if their friend because they are taking their bred and butter. Make economic better in those ares giving jobs which can be self sustained by the sell of the animals can be even a profit for the country other then a loss of money and animals anyway because of smuggling.


Actually, why would those working in the facility care about smuggling? Smuggling isn't affecting them since they are going to get paid regardless of the smuggling... Now the people who are sustainably harvesting frogs are going to be the ones who are losing money.. and if you are diverting money from them (breeding facilities) then you are also going to drop what they are going to get paid, which means smugglers may be able to pay them more to collect frogs and still undercut the facility produced frogs... It is well established the only way to undercut smuggling is to make it cost more than collecting the animal costs... That is the working economics. of the situation. 



A&MGecko said:


> Exporting captive bred animals will also higher the chance of survival of those animals exported and higher the % of those animals been able to breed in captivity, hence, more available to the market year after year. Honestly, out of 200 frogs smuggled, how many make it in captivity, because of the conditions in which are taken, kept, smuggled, luck of test for parasites, maybe 10%-20% make it, and out of that how many are going to breed successfully?


Your mixing two things here.. your implying that the facility produced frogs are going to have a better chance of surviving than the sustainably harvested frogs. This is not as clear as you are implying as it depends heavily on how the individual frogs are handled.. If the smugglers are able to bring in frogs inexpensively enough, then the rate of survivial is immaterial as long as enough make it into the country to allow to recover costs.... This is why a breeding facility doesn't meant that it will reduce smuggling... As I noted earlier with respect to ball pythons despite the thousands that are captive bred in the USA, we are still importing thousands of them... so captive bred animals have not decreased demand for animals that are still effectively collected from the wild..... 




A&MGecko said:


> Yes, I am assuming captive bred F1 can have a little advantage over harvest animals in surviving in captivity, one main reason would be condition in which they should have been kept and control of parasites.


Increasing cost versus wild caught animals. This is why smuggling also works since they are able to get wild caught animals cheaper than the captive bred one... 



A&MGecko said:


> Also exportation could be done not to quantity and needing of the exchange of so many hands but done even for a pair to a private willing to pay shipping cost, the animals should go from facility to airport, from arrival to owners directly to their viv. I have done exportations in Europe many times, a pair would cost like 2-300 USD to ship including all documents and clearing customs, the larger the box the more the cost of course. Smugglers don't check for condition, they just take what they find, throw them in plastic bottle or who know what else, and they go from worse to worse before they reach destination, I am pretty convinced that there will be no comparison of the final product from organized legal exportation then smuggling, this is just my opinion as well.


Again we have to take the economic model into account.. The only way in the long run to reduce or stop smuggling is to make legal animals cheaper than the smuggled ones... The increased cost is a problem. 



A&MGecko said:


> Money drive smugglers, people are willing to pay the price because they are rare in the hobby and hard to get, is already happening now and has been happening for as long as I have been in the hobby, the only time I have seen people stopping from buying animals is when they not hard and rare to get anymore.


Inexpensive frogs are also smuggled... for example red eye treefrogs.. you can get them for around $20 each if you get a group and yet, they are frequently smuggled... we also can see this with auratus and pumilo...which were being exported legally and fairly inexpensively 

as one example from Traffic


> snip 21 October 2004: CITES II-listed Flaming Poison Frogs Dendrobates pumilio (580) and Green Poison Frogs D. auratus (22) hidden in the canisters of more than 200 film rolls. Each container held two to three frogs. Ten per cent of the frogs died during transport. Three
> Belgian citizens, who had arrived from Panama,via Madrid, were arrested."endsnip


A ten percent loss is negliable to overall cost...for the smugglers.... 



A&MGecko said:


> am enjoying a smart and well informed conversation with you Ed, but this is the quote I disagree with you the most, you are making from minority a normal action. I am sure most of those enthusiast hobbyist in the tour have donated money to the cause and even had spent thousands of dollars if they could have bought a few animals for their collection legally. Do not use a case of 1 idiot to make it into a normality factor, I can assure you the world is not that bad yet, do not throw a bunch of people in jail because one has committed a crime, there will always be cases like that but I am pretty sure for 1 case like that there will be 100 donating to the cause.


We can see this repeated over and over again... you are aware that this has been documented for decades? For example, Carl Kauffield's great book, Snakes and Snake Hunting led to vacations to hunt the areas he described resulting in decimation of the local populations as well as severe habitat degredation since many of the amature hunters did not replace materials turned over or dug through... we can also see this in this BBC program... BBC News - Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden? .... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> Change the low, to help track animals, in Europe is required to give a document for every cites animal you sell/breed even if is cites 2.


I can be pretty confident in saying that not only would this be unpopular with the hobby but it would also be very unpopular with the politicians... 



A&MGecko said:


> (unless cites of course) with out any control of were the animals came from. Bearded dragon is first example, you can buy at petco and there never was a legal export for them.


The prevalence of bearded dragons owes it's origin to the EU, since confiscated animals were released to a zoo, where they were bred, and eventually released to the hobby.. offspring of those animals were given legal CITES paperwork by one of the countries, and exported to the US... Since that time, they have displaced iguanas for a larger popular lizards... (Actually back in 1971-1972, I remember seeing beardeds for sale, along with shingleback skinks and Chondropythons for sale in a local pet store in Jenkintown PA.... They were legal then)... So this is a grey area for that argument.... 




A&MGecko said:


> Everyone I knew in the gecko business in Europe was complaining about this, but hey, they had to give papers to sell house geckos for 20 euro each, the goal is to protect the wildlife. I have met people saving gecko eggs to prove those animals he was selling he hatched and is also mandatory to freeze cites animals that die until one of F&W can come to your facility to confirm then you can dispose of those dead animals and papers related. Any extra work the hobbyist has to go through to sell their animals is not going to be a good news, but if it help in the final object should be accepted if you care to battle smuggling.


USF&W is not set up to intensively manage the animals on this scale.. In fact if you are importing animals through a non-designated point of entry, you may have to pay for the cost of an agent to be there to inspect your shipment... It would require a massive increase in agents, changes in how they operate,... which would require funding, which would either have to be from the permitting process or taxes, neither is going to be viable... 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> I do not see the relation here with ball pythons.


The massive harvest of ball pythons has not decreased due to captive breeding, if anything is has increased demand for animals... 



A&MGecko said:


> Your point of view, I respect. More captive breeding programs more animals available for pet trade, less demand for smuggling is my opinion. I do not think is something I like the idea of, but I am convinced it can help. [/qupte]
> 
> The problem is that you don't see this happen until the cost of the animal is cheaper than the smugglers can get it for... In fact the exact opposite can happen which we can readily see that with ball pythons the captive bred market hasn't made a dent in the desire for wild collected animals....
> 
> 
> 
> A&MGecko said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are we talking about legal exported animals here? If WC legal animals are cheaper then captive bred then is a different story, unfortunately breeders have to make some choices in those cases. Example, electric blue geckos have been selling for long time WC for 10-15 box each, no one was breeding them because was not worth it, border closed now, no more allowed, well price of those going up and up, I wish I had set myself with 20 female now, they are easy to breed. But hey, things like this happens all the time in pet trade, WC cheaper, either keep for hobby, breed not for profit and sit on those animals, or sell, then you find yourself like me, border closed and none available, lol. If WC selling for cheaper are illegal then you as a breeder of legal animals have to hope those illegal movement get caught and stopped by authorities. You can only control your choices not others and make the smartest move you can make accordingly to whats happening.
> 
> 
> 
> You are aware that L. williamsi were being collected illegally out of a park?
> In addition, we can look at the imports of pumilo (see post above) and auratus, that demand for wild caught animals is still very high (and this isn't even discussing the fact that auratus have been captive bred for more than 20 years at this point..) as they are less expensive than captive bred animals for the wholesalers and retailers.
> 
> 
> 
> A&MGecko said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, bush babies ball pythons have ticks, parasites and don't eat white mice and need to be trained to but not easy, I made import of those as well, I rather spend $30 for a CB then $15 for a bush baby, lol.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, this isn't true all of the time.. I've dealt with literally hundreds of them during my time in the pet trade.... I used to get 100 at time at $3.50 each back in 1990....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A&MGecko said:
> 
> 
> 
> there are many ways to try to limit smuggling to the list possible,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is that unless they work for the economic model, they aren't likely to dent the demand for smuggled animals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A&MGecko said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand, you can't make choices for others, if more legal BJs were available maybe those "farm raised" would have been passed upon or not even considered for "exportations" from the get go. If we find a way to make more demands happy with legal animals there are less "farm raised" request. I mentioned before we will never see smuggling stop because no one will buy them, you can't change the world attitude about this, all my concepts are to help reduce the smuggling. I can also make you an example, everyone wanted nephrurus wheeleri, is a knob tail gecko from Aussie, somehow they appeared in the trade, not sure if legally or not I can only assume, people bought them top dollars, I mean 6-7k a pair, they worth now $250 a pair and I bet you no smuggler will take the risk anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We can see that these aren't true by just looking at Traffic reports on auratus and pumilio and the fact that even massively bred species (like ball pythons) still have major demand for animals from the wild..... The only way it works is if the cost/animal is below what it costs to get the animals in the first place...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed
Click to expand...


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## Brotherly Monkey

Woodsman said:


> The other important question, who was it exactly who were buying these smuggled frogs from the smuggler?
> 
> Richard.


I imagine a bunch of people who huff and holler about the evils of such every time the topic is discussed publicly


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## BlueRidge

Holy crap ed...are you writing a book in this thread. Youve got too much time on your hands


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## ChrisK

JaredJ said:


> Holy crap ed...are you writing a book in this thread. Youve got too much time on your hands


Tröllenscheisse!!!!!


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## BlueRidge

It's Tröllin Scheisse, come on dude!

I'm just wondering why he felt the need to post 4 back to back posts with references to 21 quotes. A&M gecko must have touched a nerve.


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## ChrisK

Maybe where you're from.


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## Brotherly Monkey

ChrisK said:


> Maybe where you're from.


that's what she said

...hmmm, maybe i did that wrong


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## Ed

JaredJ said:


> I'm just wondering why he felt the need to post 4 back to back posts with references to 21 quotes. A&M gecko must have touched a nerve.


Actually, he didn't touch any nerves. He was asking questions that warrented through responses. It's an important topic and I'm showing him respect by taking him seriously.. 

Ed


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## Ed

Afemoralis said:


> So, again, what is the positive move forward?


I always spend a lot of time pondering this question and one of the things I think I should also note (to keep it in context) is how the hobby is percieved here versus overseas... Overseas, many hobbyists are respected professionals and routinely contribute to the scientific literature (and have been for decades), this can even be seen in some of the publications, and off the top of my head, notably Salamanadra (SALAMANDRA), and the British Herpetological Society (The Herpetological Bulletin and The Herpetological Journal (The BHS - Publications). Particularly since the demise of Vivarium and the decline of membership in some groups like NOAH... One of the few publications in the US deserves support (and I should renew my membership) is the Chicago Herpetological Society (see http://www.chicagoherp.org/bulletin/47(7).pdf). 


Some comments 

Ed


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## A&MGecko

> Actually, he didn't touch any nerves. He was asking questions that warrented through responses. It's an important topic and I'm showing him respect by taking him seriously..


I wasn't trying to touch any nerves either, some concept may be not clear when I write because of my English is not really good, so apologies. My concept and ideas are from 20+ years of experience in the trade, in some cases have worked and is some have not, but there is absolutely not only 1 directions we can go, I am absolutely convinced and I got experience to prove some of my concept work, so there is no way anyone can convince me that the only way to go is just 1.


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## jacobi

A&MGecko said:


> I have seen geckos from Australia that are commonly considered pests there, over abundance and killed every day in houses like flies, sell for like 200-300 box each in the pet trade,


Which species, out of curiosity....?


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## jacobi

Ed said:


> I always spend a lot of time pondering this question and one of the things I think I should also note (to keep it in context) is how the hobby is percieved here versus overseas... Overseas, many hobbyists are respected professionals and routinely contribute to the scientific literature (and have been for decades)


One of the things that has been getting me thinking recently is how here in the US, and this IS a generalization, people seem to keep herps and exotics because they are "cool", with absolutely no thought given to any other aspect of these animals natural lives. They aren't frikking stamps, they are biological gems. Hearing it called a "hobby" has started to get on my nerves, it brings to mind the amateur stamp or coin collector who keeps his collection in the attic or basement in a box, with no care about their history. The whole "collecting" aspect of the "hobby" also irritates me, they aren't baseball cards. They have to have the latest craziest morph and sell off the animals they've had for a year or two. And for those of you who jump on the WC ads for any variation of the above reasons, you are as bad if not worse than the smugglers. Smugglers usually know they are breaking the law, the buyers try to justify it.

Sorry for the rant, this topic gets me steamed because I feel helpless and don't know what to do.


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## outofreach

jacobi said:


> One of the things that has been getting me thinking recently is how here in the US, and this IS a generalization, people seem to keep herps and exotics because they are "cool", with absolutely no thought given to any other aspect of these animals natural lives. They aren't frikking stamps, they are biological gems. Hearing it called a "hobby" has started to get on my nerves, it brings to mind the amateur stamp or coin collector who keeps his collection in the attic or basement in a box, with no care about their history. The whole "collecting" aspect of the "hobby" also irritates me, they aren't baseball cards. They have to have the latest craziest morph and sell off the animals they've had for a year or two. And for those of you who jump on the WC ads for any variation of the above reasons, you are as bad if not worse than the smugglers. Smugglers usually know they are breaking the law, the buyers try to justify it.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, this topic gets me steamed because I feel helpless and don't know what to do.



That's the kids and young people I would think, for the most part. Doesn't seem real cool for say 30-40+. My friends think its strange and somewhat eccentric. I've always had animals, currently have the fish tank, dog and 500 pounds of tortoise wandering my backyard. You will never stop the impulse buy, wouldn't even bother to try. The people that keep animals for the love of it are the ones you should try and educate. 

Its natural for someone new (myself included) to want a green frog, spotted frog, black frog, couple geckos and put them all in one tank. The best you can do I think is educate and not blast away at someone that doesn't know better. When someone asks about mixing I would think its best not to have 5 pages telling them in effect their an idiot to do it or consider it.

As far as the more advanced person buying rare expensive possibly smuggled frogs, well good chance they are in it for the money and you're wasting your breath trying to stop it. 

Only way in my limited, uneducated, new opinion is to stop the frogs before they get here.


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## skylsdale

outofreach said:


> That's the kids and young people I would think, for the most part. Doesn't seem real cool for say 30-40+.


I wish I could say this is true, but in my experience it's not. Maybe as you get older the idea of "cool" fades and it turns into more of a scenario where someone wants to be respected, adored...to be the one people talk about as having "that frog."

It's just as juvenile, of course, but no less present.


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## outofreach

skylsdale said:


> I wish I could say this is true, but in my experience it's not. Maybe as you get older the idea of "cool" fades and it turns into more of a scenario where someone wants to be respected, adored...to be the one people talk about as having "that frog."
> 
> It's just as juvenile, of course, but no less present.


I believe that.

The problem is those people know better. That seems impossible to stop those collectors.


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## Ed

A&MGecko said:


> I wasn't trying to touch any nerves either, some concept may be not clear when I write because of my English is not really good, so apologies. My concept and ideas are from 20+ years of experience in the trade,


I spent close to 20 years working in the trade, and additionally spent almost 19 years working for a conservation organization...and that is in addition to my keeping of herps for more than 30 years.... 




A&MGecko said:


> in some cases have worked and is some have not, but there is absolutely not only 1 directions we can go, I am absolutely convinced and I got experience to prove some of my concept work, so there is no way anyone can convince me that the only way to go is just 1.


Yes, some of the concepts work, but the primary one is that cost has to be less than what the smugglers can charge for the animal in question. If you cannot get the price below the smuggler's price, then smuggling continues.. That is why I made the note of smuggling of red eye treefrogs, auratus and pumilio..... and the supporting documentation... 

Don't worry, your English is fine... 


Ed


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## Ed

jacobi said:


> Hearing it called a "hobby" has started to get on my nerves, it brings to mind the amateur stamp or coin collector who keeps his collection in the attic or basement in a box, with no care about their history.


Jake, 

the reason I use the phrase "hobby" is because, the majority of the people are not trying to actually be commercial, they aren't a member of any form of conservation organization or a dart frog professional organization so really all it leaves is hobby... Just like keeping orchids is a hobby, or tropical fish is a hobby,..... breeding cats and dogs can be a hobby... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jacobi

Ed said:


> Jake,
> 
> the reason I use the phrase "hobby" is because, the majority of the people are not trying to actually be commercial, they aren't a member of any form of conservation organization or a dart frog professional organization so really all it leaves is hobby... Just like keeping orchids is a hobby, or tropical fish is a hobby,..... breeding cats and dogs can be a hobby...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Yeah, I know. It wasn't your use of the word, just the similarities between stamp and baseball card collecting that bother me...


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## outofreach

jacobi said:


> Yeah, I know. It wasn't your use of the word, just the similarities between stamp and baseball card collecting that bother me...


What should we call it?


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## jacobi

outofreach said:


> What should we call it?


Beats me. Can't a bloke vent in peace?


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## outofreach

jacobi said:


> Beats me. Can't a bloke vent in peace?



I got it.

Facilitator ?


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## BlueRidge

jacobi said:


> One of the things that has been getting me thinking recently is how here in the US, and this IS a generalization, people seem to keep herps and exotics because they are "cool", with absolutely no thought given to any other aspect of these animals natural lives. They aren't frikking stamps, they are biological gems. Hearing it called a "hobby" has started to get on my nerves, it brings to mind the amateur stamp or coin collector who keeps his collection in the attic or basement in a box, with no care about their history. The whole "collecting" aspect of the "hobby" also irritates me, they aren't baseball cards. They have to have the latest craziest morph and sell off the animals they've had for a year or two. And for those of you who jump on the WC ads for any variation of the above reasons, you are as bad if not worse than the smugglers. Smugglers usually know they are breaking the law, the buyers try to justify it.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, this topic gets me steamed because I feel helpless and don't know what to do.


Then why else do people keep dart frogs, or any other frog for that reason? To use your example, I would ask why people collect stamps. I see it as boring and dull myself but someone had their reason. 

How often do you see new posts on here about how someone had seen frogs somewhere and fell in love with them only to do lots of research and get a tank setup then buy their first frogs? Are they not doing it for a wow factor? Hell who on here has frogs because they want to help conservation? They have them because they liked them and now have collected so many they trade/sell off their offspring. How could you not call it a hobby? What else is it?


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