# Are springs neccesary for blue darts?



## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

I was about to order sprigntails online and i wondered if there really neccesary for blue poison dart frogs.I know there neccesary for thumbs but considering feeding them fruit flies i see know use. And if so do i just dump the whole culture in the tank . I am getting the dart frogs the 15th of april and i need to know.


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## PoisonFrog (Jan 27, 2012)

Yes, springtails and other micro fauna are essential in a vivarium. Don't dump the whole culture. Let the culture repopulate and then introduce some springs (not the whole culture.)

I think that you are getting your frogs a little to soon...


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

i had it setup for 2 in a half months


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Is this the 10 gallon vertical that cracked?

You generally want the tank WITH springs in them set up for a month plus before the frogs arrive, so that they have a chance to populate and establish inside of the enclosure....

Are you referring to Dendrobates tinctorius azureus as your 'blue' frogs or D. auratus?


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

No, i have diffrent setup 18 by 18 by 24 zoo med cage ,dedrobates tinctorus azureus is what i was talking about sorry im still trying to get the spelling down know he names just cant rember how to spell it. And here is that tank . please feel free to commit on build.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

It`s kind of hard to tell from the pictures, do you have any form of leaf litter in there?

John


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

Yeah but onl a little


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

As far as springtails being neccesary.. I would say more for your viv than your Azureus.
My Azureus loves springtails but it needs something bigger to survive like fruit flies, pinhead crickets and other isopods.
Again, I`m having a hard time seeing the bottom of your tank ( it could just be me) but I`m not seeing alot of floor space and your going to need a good amout leaf litter. I have tanks where it`s 2-3inches think.

John


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

here is floor. so your saying fill the whole bottom whith dried oak leaves. Plus if your still on there not enough floor space in your opion which dart will suit the build better.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Mount a brom on the panels on the back and it would be good for a pair of imitators, but i must agree, a tank with that little floor space could not afford the water feature and still be suitable for azureus...not saying you "can't" put them in there, just not as much to their likes and needs. Not to mention there will be alot of vertical space that azureus may never use.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

No, you don't need springtails for the frogs. Azureus will eat them, but it's much more practical and easier to feed them dusted fruit flies instead. Springtails would still be good to help prevent lots of mold outbreaks and keep the viv cleaned.
Bryan


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Mandatory? No. But springtails are your little janitors.  This past week my mom has discovered mini glass terrariums but she was having problems with mold. She added washed charcoal and a helping of my tropical springs. The mold went away in about three or four days. Some thoughts.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Springs are not necessary, but HIGHLY recommended. They will fulfill an important niche in your vivarium and will contribute to making the system much healthier as a whole.

So that is a 10G vertical tank right? How many azureus are you planning on putting in there? If you are putting more than 2 frogs in there be prepared for some potential problems with aggression between the frogs that could lead t the loss of an individual. In case you haven't read it already here is the care sheet for this species:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14606-dendrobates-azureus-tinctorius-novice.html



> Being larger frogs, Azureus and Tinctorius require a good amount of floor space. Pairs of frogs should not be kept in tanks smaller than 10g, with larger tanks preferable (20, 20L). Small groups of frogs consisting of 2-3 males to a single female are ok. But multiple females are discouraged as female-female aggression, perhaps the most intense of all dendrobatid species, is a serious problem. Housing two sexually mature females can lead to the death of the non-dominant animal. This may not be the case in individual situations without the presence of a male, but is not guaranteed. Female aggression is much stronger than male-male or male-female aggression. Care should also be taken when introducing (or reintroducing) mature animals into established groups, when aggression can be greater.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

That tank doesn't really have the right amount of floor space. Tincs prefer tanks that is longer then it is tall. I'm not saying you can't keep them in the tank, it just not reccomended. A pair or small group of thumbnails would be better for that tank.
As for springtails, no, it is not needed but highly reccomended. they take care of all of the frog waste, dead flies, and mold. So, basicly, like stated above they are you little tank janitors!


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

Its a 33.3 gallon tank. A 18by 18by 24 zoo med tank


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

Then are aurtus better for my build besides thumbs. I heard their semi aboreal.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

auratus or leucs would work. not sure if auratus are semi-arboreal but i know leucs are


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

18x18 is more than enough room for 2-3 frogs. Auratus would do nicely in there. If possible, just make sure they have plenty of floor space to move around comfortably, some nice hiding spots and cover the bottom with a nice layer of leaf litter.

John


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

I'll probably get beat up for this but....

I think 18 by 18 is fine. My azureus pair are currently in a 12x12 temporary viv (the new one will be 18x24). They actually seem quite content. I do have some wood in there they can climb, and they do. I've had conversations with some local froggers who have kept pairs in these smaller terrariums as well.

I also don't have tons of leaf litter. I have about half of it in litter about 1 inch deep. They don't seem to hide in it and prefer to dig under the cork piece in there (has a micromini plant in it) or dig under the ledges under the background. They come out from time to time, especially when I mist and feed. They eat in front of me, aren't shy at all.

Now, I purposely put them in a smallish viv (I have several larger ones). I wanted to see them, observe them in a smaller environment that I could always find them in. In doing so, it does look to me like they could be plenty happy in that space.

I was also told not to use so much moss as it would die. However, it is still thriving. I am careful not to pour extra dust from flies in (I have perfected ff dusting and waste very little). I did have some mushrooms for a day, they were cute. I think the springs ate them, I saw several on them the second day.

I do recommend the springs. If you don't like seeing the creepy crawlies, I was given some grey ones that are tiny and hard to see. Yet they populate extremely fast. Maybe put those in your tank.

That is my observations. I can just feel the flames....


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Epipedobates would also be suitable for verticle vivs.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

frog dude said:


> That tank doesn't really have the right amount of floor space. Tincs prefer tanks that is longer then it is tall. I'm not saying you can't keep them in the tank, it just not reccomended.


I don't get this and I'm not aiming it at you. I see people post the same thing all the time. All of my Tincs are housed in a 24" high tank and they all will climb to the top, if they're given the opportunity. Meaning, something to climb on. What is the difference if the tank is 6 inches higher? It's still 18 inches wide. Even if they didn't climb, who cares. 

It's okay to keep Tinc pairs in an 18" cube, but not a tank that is 6 inches higher?


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Glenn, I had a group of Leucs in a 18x18x24 for 6 years. EVERY night they would sleep in the very top corner. I had to stick my head in the tank and look straight up to see them!

John


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Glenn, I had a group of Leucs in a 18x18x24 for 6 years. EVERY night they would sleep in the very top corner. I had to stick my head in the tank and look straight up to see them!
> 
> John


Yup, I have mine in a 36" wide by 24" tall and they do the same thing. John. I find my Tincs sitting at the top of the tank every morning. I'm assuming they're enjoying the warmth from the lights. Tincs have been found many metres off the ground in the wild and they can't climb 60cm/24 inches in captivity. lol


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> I don't get this and I'm not aiming it at you. I see people post the same thing all the time. All of my Tincs are housed in a 24" high tank and they all will climb to the top, if they're given the opportunity. Meaning, something to climb on. What is the difference if the tank is 6 inches higher? It's still 18 inches wide. Even if they didn't climb, who cares.
> 
> It's okay to keep Tinc pairs in an 18" cube, but not a tank that is 6 inches higher?


i think all darts we keep will climb to the top of our vivs as long as they are not super tall because terrestrial frogs will climb to something like 4-5 feet off the ground and most vivs are less than 4-5 feet so they still will climb


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

There is a section in Lötters that mentions that tinc eggs (or tads?) had been found in a tree hole 20m above ground along with some tree frog eggs (or tads).


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

hypostatic said:


> There is a section in Lötters that mentions that tinc eggs (or tads?) had been found in a tree hole 20m above ground along with some tree frog eggs (or tads).


I've read that and I believe it was 13 metres. A lot higher than 60cm/24 inches, so where does this come from?


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

goof901 said:


> i think all darts we keep will climb to the top of our vivs as long as they are not super tall because terrestrial frogs will climb to something like 4-5 feet off the ground and most vivs are less than 4-5 feet so they still will climb





hypostatic said:


> There is a section in Lötters that mentions that tinc eggs (or tads?) had been found in a tree hole 20m above ground along with some tree frog eggs (or tads).





frogfreak said:


> I've read that and I believe it was 13 metres. A lot higher than 60cm/24 inches, so where does this come from?


  I did not know that...I guess tincs climb a fair amount too. That's one of the wonders of dendroboard, you learn something new every day!


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> I've read that and I believe it was 13 metres. A lot higher than 60cm/24 inches, so where does this come from?


Oops... yeah... I'm bad with numbers....

Well they CAN still climb. I'm sure many have seen their tincs climbing on the viv's glass, so they definitely have the ability to. I guess that most of the time they just don't climb that high lol.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

hypostatic said:


> Oops... yeah... I'm bad with numbers....
> 
> Well they CAN still climb. I'm sure many have seen their tincs climbing on the viv's glass, so they definitely have the ability to. I guess that most of the time they just don't climb that high lol.


Which goes back to my original thinking. Why is this constantly posted? 

A 24" high tank.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Has anyone considered that for a fat frog it's a lot harder to climb up glass or a background than it is for a frog that is in better shape (fat wise) that is found in the wild???? 

Ed


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

BrianWI said:


> I'll probably get beat up for this but....
> 
> I think 18 by 18 is fine. My azureus pair are currently in a 12x12 temporary viv (the new one will be 18x24). They actually seem quite content. I do have some wood in there they can climb, and they do. I've had conversations with some local froggers who have kept pairs in these smaller terrariums as well.
> 
> ...


I think we should stick YOU in that 12 x 12 footprint, and give your frogs reign of your house. I'm sure you'll be ecstatic. *smirk*


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Ed said:


> Has anyone considered that for a fat frog it's a lot harder to climb up glass or a background than it is for a frog that is in better shape (fat wise) that is found in the wild????
> 
> Ed


Good point, Ed. My frogs are kept on the leaner side. I try and replicate what I see in the wild and I've yet to see a fat frog...


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Ed said:


> Has anyone considered that for a fat frog it's a lot harder to climb up glass or a background than it is for a frog that is in better shape (fat wise) that is found in the wild????
> 
> Ed


So basically, an obese frog has just as easy of a time climbing up vertical spaces as an obese human has climbing up several flights of stairs lol

But still, would it be an accurate statement to say that both in the terrarium and in the wild, tincs spend most of their time near the ground and the leaf litter?


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Ok, so the OP pm`d me and is totally confused from all the responses. ( myself included)

So, yes, an 18x18x24 will absolutely work for Auratus or Azureus. Like I said have a good amount of floor space with some cover to make them feel secure, plants, leaf litter, microfauna, temps in the 70`s, humidity 80-90% and your good to go.
Sorry for all the confusion...we mean well.

John


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, so the OP pm`d me and is totally confused from all the responses. ( myself included)
> 
> So, yes, an 18x18x24 will absolutely work for Auratus or Azureus. Like I said have a good amount of floor space with some cover to make them feel secure, plants, leaf litter, microfauna, temps in the 70`s, humidity 80-90% and your good to go.
> Sorry for all the confusion...we mean well.
> ...


I wanted to state that the number of animals that the OP puts in the enclosure is also important. Too many frogs can lead to aggression, which can lead to the death of an animal.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> But still, would it be an accurate statement to say that both in the terrarium and in the wild, tincs spend most of their time near the ground and the leaf litter?


Only if you use the qualifier sentence as follows: quote "Depending on resource allocation, tinctorious tend to be behaviorally adapted to spending the majority of the time on the ground. Behavioral exceptions to this may be seen when conditions or resources on the ground do not meet the needs of the frog(s). " endquote

Ed


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

okay what know the springtails just came in the mail and i dont know what to do! Do i leave them in their orginal container and add water and yeast?


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

You divide: throw some in your tank that you want to seed, and then make a bigger culture with the remaining. Never use up ALL of one culture, always divide up. That's the name of the game!


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

thats the problem do i leave the springtails in there orginal container or get somthing bigger.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

You get a bigger container, springtails have a tendency to populate quite well(the "BOOM" of a culture), so you want to provide them with that space to do so. And like I said, you want to place some into the enclosure(s) you are using to seed a population in there for future animals!


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

here is the cointainer i picked hope it is the right size


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Interesting choice. Be sure NEVER to drink lemonade out of that again! 

The plastic containers that I was referring to are the ones they sell at like Lowe's Home Improvement, again they are like 5.5 quarts/liters, flat-stackable-clear and usually under $2.00.


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

But it can probably still work right. I just don't whant to waist time driving. To a store butte if I have to ill do it


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

where can you get the charcoal for springtail cultures. I know you can get it online from josh's frogs but i know there's got to be some kind of local store that sells the stuff. Home Depot or Lowe's carry it? and what exactly kind of charcoal is it? Lump charcoal?


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

It PROBABLY could work, phaz3boy, it would just be awkward because of the shape/surface-area. I think the alternative -- buying a couple of these KIS plastic clear containers -- would be better for you in the long run. Like I said, you can stack them and if you have more than one culture....that will be much easier for you.

J Teezy -- Doug outlines the charcoal for making springtail cultures in his superb thread as follows, which you can get at Lowe's or Home Depot(if you don't, as you say, order from a sponsor like Josh's Frogs)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html


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## phaz3boy (Feb 28, 2012)

So okay I get the bigger bin like you said I add the s pringtails water yeast etc. But with the charcoal that is in the container with the orderd springtails I add with no extra charcoal right.or do I have to order/buy a whole new bag of charcoal to add. Just clear up on the steps


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Have more charcoal, since the stuff that comes with the culture probably will not be enough to cover the new -- BIGGER -- plastic container that you will now have. 

1)Make sure container is clean. (optional, make sure charcoal is clean)
2)Make sure charcoal is small-ish so it doesn't cut down on surface area
3)Put new charcoal into the plastic container
4)Separate what you want into this new, bigger culture(from what you want to put into your tanks)
5)Empty the springtail culture out into this plastic container
6)Add about an inch of water dechlorinated(or spring).
7)Add some springtail food(like yeast) [feed the culture like that once a week]
8)Spray down the culture
9)Attach lid so it's tight.

Congratulations. You are done!


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