# Tapeworms



## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

How do you get a dewormer into a tiny pumillio?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ivermectin is dropped onto the frog's back. Tapeworm? Is this an official diagnosis? You might not want to just deworm the frog. Has a vet seen him?


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

Ran the fecals myself(dad is a vet, I work for him), my new popa trio has tapeworms. They have been pretty shy, but I have witnessed one of them using it's back legs to wipe/scratch it's side, in a seemingly stressed or agitated state. That is what made me worry enough to run fecals on all my frogs. It is also the main reason I want to deworm. 
I suppose I could quarantine and send samples to the lab, knowing that at least tapeworms are present. I could also find a vet that specializes in exotics and bring in all my frogs. I just don't want to. I worry about stressing the little guys out if I don't have to. 
Do I have to ?


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I know your a vet but dude be careful with these things, the worms are killers to humans also after a period of time, i should know


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

My dad is a vet, not me. I ran the fecals the same exact way I run dog and cat fecals. The tapeworm looks just like what I am used to seeing.
I know how bad coccidea is, but which worm in frogs is deadly? Wouldn't I have to ingest it to get sick?
I was not aware of the danger. (Now I'm instantly feeling ill)


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

waynowon said:


> Ran the fecals myself(dad is a vet, I work for him), my new popa trio has tapeworms.
> Do I have to ?


How do you diagnose tapeworms? Is it the eggs? 



mfsidore said:


> I know your a vet but dude be careful with these things, the worms are killers to humans also after a period of time, i should know


This statement deserves a little more explanation. Have you or someone you know had tapeworms?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

waynowon said:


> Ran the fecals myself(dad is a vet, I work for him), my new popa trio has tapeworms. They have been pretty shy, but I have witnessed one of them using it's back legs to wipe/scratch it's side, in a seemingly stressed or agitated state. That is what made me worry enough to run fecals on all my frogs. It is also the main reason I want to deworm.
> I suppose I could quarantine and send samples to the lab, knowing that at least tapeworms are present. I could also find a vet that specializes in exotics and bring in all my frogs. I just don't want to. I worry about stressing the little guys out if I don't have to.
> Do I have to ?


I think you should consult an exotic vet. You have to be careful when deworming. From what I understand, if you kill a large parasite it can become septic and cause the frog to go into septic shock and die.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

oldlady25715 said:


> How do you diagnose tapeworms? Is it the eggs?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I observed tapeworm eggs


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ivermectrin does not kill tapes...a form of "Droncit" (for cats) does...Since I've had horses for a number of years, and the usual dogs and cats...I have used the Ivermectrin any number of times...You should consider contacting Dr. Frye through Dart Den... I would never have thought about tapes in frogs since fleas are the usual vector....


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think this calls for an exotic vet. You might be able to find one near you through this ARAV website: Arav


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Definitely agree...but Dr. Frye is so approachable by phone or email...and he suspects a different organism with similiar eggs..probably good to consider that possibility...And here in MD no vet, by law, is required to actually examine the animal...a PITA...so even sending samples would not be allowed...crazy.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I googled tapeworms in frogs and was amazed... Check out the whole article on General Health.com I'm pasting just one sentence from that article:

Spargana, or larval stages of certain tapeworms in frogs, reptiles, birds, and some mammals, may produce a variety of clinical conditions (sparganosis) ranging from local tender swellings (eg, eye) to a form of cutaneous larva migrans. One form is proliferating, invading all soft tissues. Infections are acquired from frog or other meat poultices, eating the raw flesh of small animals, or ingesting infected copepods in water. The diagnosis is usually made after surgical removal, but local physicians will make early diagnoses. Infections in animals are widespread; in humans more local, depending upon individual habits.

Just when you think you "know it all" LOL Good Luck!!!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Judy S said:


> Definitely agree...but Dr. Frye is so approachable by phone or email...and he suspects a different organism with similiar eggs..probably good to consider that possibility...And here in MD no vet, by law, is required to actually examine the animal...a PITA...so even sending samples would not be allowed...crazy.


Sorry, Judy, I meant to say a local exotic vet. IMO, it's much better to get fecals tested when they are fresh from the frog's butt rather than mail them out. Also, having them examined in person is not a bad idea. Sadly, I realize that lots of people don't have access to a local vet, trained in herps, but, I think it's worth looking for one.


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## OrangeTyrant (May 12, 2011)

Also, for what it's worth, when running fecals, there're many eggs that may look like tapeworm eggs (with the rostrellar hooklets, etc) but cannot be definitively be diagnosed as such based on a fecal float alone and may belong to another organism. 

This is why these eggs are usually reported as "Taenia-type eggs" when noted in a fecal exam - this covers these inconclusive bases. 

What I'm getting at here, is that just because you saw a Taenia-type egg doesn't mean the frog has tapeworms and needs to be treated. 

Please follow the other advice and visit an exotic veterinarian - use ARAV to locate one, or use your dad's connections with his colleagues to reach out to his former classmates and friends who do know. Dr. James Carpenter has written an excellent exotics animal formulary for veterinarians as well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> I would never have thought about tapes in frogs since fleas are the usual vector....


There are a lot of different tapeworms and the intermediate host depends a lot on the definitive host. For example, tapeworms are common in fish and the intermediate hosts are typically freshwater crustaceans I would expect that they are small arthropods. 

I have seen tapeworms encyst in frogs that were not the definitive host. In those cases it was due to mouse tapeworms in cockroaches that were getting into a cage whites treefrogs. 

Some comments 
Ed


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

oldlady25715 said:


> How do you diagnose tapeworms? Is it the eggs?
> 
> 
> 
> This statement deserves a little more explanation. Have you or someone you know had tapeworms?


My uncle was a huge fisherman and he was a catch and keep. But one time he got very unlucky and ingested very small tapeworms from a not fully cooked fish fillet(obviously he didn't know they were there), he started not feeling well and after a while he got sicker... And sicker... Ad sicker until his end. My got an autopsy of him and they found one 13 ft tapeworm along with a8 ft tapeworm in him


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

mfsidore said:


> My uncle was a huge fisherman and he was a catch and keep. But one time he got very unlucky and ingested very small tapeworms from a not fully cooked fish fillet(obviously he didn't know they were there), he started not feeling well and after a while he got sicker... And sicker... Ad sicker until his end. My got an autopsy of him and they found one 13 ft tapeworm along with a8 ft tapeworm in him


Holy crap. I didn't need to see this post. I hate the idea of having something like that inside me..…Hello nightmares….


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

mfsidore said:


> My uncle was a huge fisherman and he was a catch and keep. But one time he got very unlucky and ingested very small tapeworms from a not fully cooked fish fillet(obviously he didn't know they were there), he started not feeling well and after a while he got sicker... And sicker... Ad sicker until his end. My got an autopsy of him and they found one 13 ft tapeworm along with a8 ft tapeworm in him


Explanation sufficient. Sorry about you uncle... What a way to go. May he rest in peace.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

so how much dewormer and how often should i deworm? 
or is the generic answer: I don't know, ask dr fry, or, take your frogs out of their homes to see a froggy vet? 
I think I am starting to see that the "KNOWITALLS" here DON'T KNOW SH#$! THE FLEECE HAS BEEN PULLED FROM MY EYES.
Thanks for those trying to help. I will figure it out on my own as usual.
how is it possible, that something as simple as a fecal parasite question, has no definitive answer here? or at least a decent thread. we love to post pics of our tank building progress, which is nice, but i would think someone would be up on "how to worm your frogs"
pretty simple stuff imho.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

waynowon said:


> so how much dewormer and how often should i deworm?
> or is the generic answer: I don't know, ask dr fry, or, take your frogs out of their homes to see a froggy vet?
> I think I am starting to see that the "KNOWITALLS" here DON'T KNOW SH#$! THE FLEECE HAS BEEN PULLED FROM MY EYES.
> Thanks for those trying to help. I will figure it out on my own as usual.
> ...


Did you bother to consider that 
1) it is illegal for people to tell you how to treat the frogs unless they are a vet? 
2) that if someone who isn't a vet, gives you information, you or anyone else who reads the post(s) and your not happy with the result, you could sue them and win? (Your dad could report them..)
3) As pointed out by Orangetyrant above, it is possible that they are not tapeworm eggs but a different parasite whose eggs resemble tapeworm eggs infecting the frogs? 

If you really want to know this stuff, buy the relevant reference books like Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry Krieger Press, 2001.. It's have the answers for you, without anyone else risking a law suit because you want the answers right now without bothering to do the research yourself... or having your dad call the nearest large zoo and consult with the vets that work there.. OR he could call and consult with any number of ARAV vets... 

In the time from the first post you could have ordered the book from Amazon.com and saved yourself a rant against those people who choose to not put themselves in a place for a lawsuit....those who know that stuff often choose to not put themselves in a bad place with a person who then demonstrates the sort of behavior you just did... 

Some comments 
Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

and I reiterate...regular "wormer" does not kill tapes...at least in the domestic animals I own...thank you Ed for your pointed post...


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

Ed said:


> Did you bother to consider that
> 1) it is illegal for people to tell you how to treat the frogs unless they are a vet?
> 2) that if someone who isn't a vet, gives you information, you or anyone else who reads the post(s) and your not happy with the result, you could sue them and win? (Your dad could report them..)
> 3) As pointed out by Orangetyrant above, it is possible that they are not tapeworm eggs but a different parasite whose eggs resemble tapeworm eggs infecting the frogs?
> ...


no you can't be sued Ed, you are not a doctor. i thought we had "experts" here that may be able to easily tell me the technique for worming a frog. clearly my "rant" was spot on. this response however is the bane of dendroboard. "you are doing it wrong" is a bad answer to "how do i do this." worse is: we won't give any advice because you may sue us.
Ed- you speak without knowledge. how could anyone possibly sue over solicited advice? right or wrong you can NOT sue. well i guess anyone can try, but there are no grounds. 
I guess next time i need legal advice, or frog advice, i will not look for it here.
just sillyness


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

Somebody ate their trollio's for breakfast I see


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

waynowon said:


> no you can't be sued Ed, you are not a doctor. i thought we had "experts" here that may be able to easily tell me the technique for worming a frog. clearly my "rant" was spot on. this response however is the bane of dendroboard. "you are doing it wrong" is a bad answer to "how do i do this." worse is: we won't give any advice because you may sue us.
> Ed- you speak without knowledge. how could anyone possibly sue over solicited advice? right or wrong you can NOT sue. well i guess anyone can try, but there are no grounds.
> I guess next time i need legal advice, or frog advice, i will not look for it here.
> just sillyness


Okay, you've convinced me that your dad isn't a vet or any other form of licensed medical practitioner. If he was then you would know that practicing medicine without a license is something that easily result in a lawsuit if someone thinks you harmed their animal or did damage to one... 
I suggest reviewing Veterinarian Malpractice where it is referenced right in the Introduction. 

As for asking for expert opinions... sometimes the experts have a deep understanding of what can put their head on the chopping block... 

As for not helping.. you were provided multiple available routes for you to acquire the knowledge... however they all seem to be unacceptable as evidenced by your continued behaviors... 
I suggest investing in a copy of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry... or getting your dad (assuming he is in fact a veterinarian) to consult with the appropriate professional veterinarians either with the ARAV or the vet staff at one of the big zoos... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

waynowon said:


> no you can't be sued Ed, you are not a doctor. i thought we had "experts" here that may be able to easily tell me the technique for worming a frog. clearly my "rant" was spot on. this response however is the bane of dendroboard. "you are doing it wrong" is a bad answer to "how do i do this." worse is: we won't give any advice because you may sue us.
> Ed- you speak without knowledge. how could anyone possibly sue over solicited advice? right or wrong you can NOT sue. well i guess anyone can try, but there are no grounds.
> I guess next time i need legal advice, or frog advice, i will not look for it here.
> just sillyness


Umm your father is a veterinarian. Why on earth are you looking for answers to questions about animal medicine from a bunch of non-veterinarians on the Internet? It makes no sense. 

Here is my uninformed opinion: Contact a professional. ASK YOUR DAD.

Found these places on the link in my signature (there are many others if you care to click it):

Byron de la Navarre
Animal House of Chicago
Complete Veterinary Care, Inc.
http://www.animalhouseofchicago.com/
2752 West Lawrence Avenue
Chicago, IL 60625
(773)878-8002

Kathryn Gamble
Lincoln Park Zoo
http://www.lpzoo.org/
2001 N Clark St
Chicago, IL 60614
(312)742-7722


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> and I reiterate...regular "wormer" does not kill tapes...at least in the domestic animals I own...thank you Ed for your pointed post...


Judy, 

It depends on what you are using as a regular wormer... There are a number of over the counter medications which use different active ingredients. As a result it is pretty easy to choose the wrong one for the job (and this assumes that there isn't any resistance in the parasites). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

mrzoggs said:


> Somebody ate their trollio's for breakfast I see


Someone must be selling a ton of them to board members lately... Been crazy round here.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

carola1155 said:


> Someone must be selling a ton of them to board members lately... Been crazy round here.


I get the hint that they are all the same people... Or at least work together


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

Ed said:


> Okay, you've convinced me that your dad isn't a vet or any other form of licensed medical practitioner. If he was then you would know that practicing medicine without a license is something that easily result in a lawsuit if someone thinks you harmed their animal or did damage to one...
> I suggest reviewing Veterinarian Malpractice where it is referenced right in the Introduction.
> 
> As for asking for expert opinions... sometimes the experts have a deep understanding of what can put their head on the chopping block...
> ...


Who is practicing medicine?(besides dr fry) Would I have to pay for your advice,mr ed? Are you a doctor or a lawyer? I'm asking if someone has ever treated their pumillio for tapes. I made the diagnosis myself. I see tapeworms and hookworms and roundworms etc. regularly ,having done thousands of fecal exams on dogs and cats. I deal with that malpractice law every time I go to work. I am not a lawyer nor a veterinarian but I know that if I gave any medical advice at work, that it would open the door for a lawsuit. That's because I work at an animal hospital and many clients assume I am a doctor, or that what I say is representative of what my dad, the doctor,would say. There is no reason for me to think that all members here are veterinarians , so any advice would not be liable. For example ,when I told a friend my toe hurt, and he told me to just lop it off, I don't think I would win a malpractice lawsuit. Unless he was a doctor and he amputated said toe. 
Of course I have asked my dad and he thinks using the injectable dewormer is the way to go and just use a drop on the frogs back. He is waiting on me to do it. I've been carefully watching the frogs and they have been eating well and the male calling. If I sense a drop in either, I will go ahead and deworm. 
Some people here have been helpful, and I do thank those who have tried. I even thank those of you who are trying to be humorous. Then there are the "others" who chum the waters, bait an argument, then pile on with no intentions of helping whatsoever. These trolls are all over this board and are always shouting "you're doing it wrong" whenever a newbie asks a newbie question rather than helping. It's embarrassing. 
So now I will start a new breeding program and I will mix different morphs until I get a new, cool colored frog. Not only because it will anger all the know it alls, but because I feel like it. (See, I can troll too)
Btw I told the story of the uncle who died from contact with a tapeworm ,at work ,and was told that just because two huge tapes were found at autopsy, it was highly unlikely that this was given as cause of death. 
Oh and Ed, do you consider yourself an expert too fearful of a malpractice lawsuit to tell me how much dewormer to use, and how often? Just curious. 
You have convinced me you are further from being an expert than me. Say something else about my continued behavior. You just continue to mouth breath in the corner.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

waynowon said:


> Who is practicing medicine?(besides dr fry) Would I have to pay for your advice,mr ed? Are you a doctor or a lawyer? I'm asking if someone has ever treated their pumillio for tapes. I made the diagnosis myself. I see tapeworms and hookworms and roundworms etc. regularly ,having done thousands of fecal exams on dogs and cats. I deal with that malpractice law every time I go to work. I am not a lawyer nor a veterinarian but I know that if I gave any medical advice at work, that it would open the door for a lawsuit. That's because I work at an animal hospital and many clients assume I am a doctor, or that what I say is representative of what my dad, the doctor,would say. There is no reason for me to think that all members here are veterinarians , so any advice would not be liable. For example ,when I told a friend my toe hurt, and he told me to just lop it off, I don't think I would win a malpractice lawsuit. Unless he was a doctor and he amputated said toe.
> Of course I have asked my dad and he thinks using the injectable dewormer is the way to go and just use a drop on the frogs back. He is waiting on me to do it. I've been carefully watching the frogs and they have been eating well and the male calling. If I sense a drop in either, I will go ahead and deworm.
> Some people here have been helpful, and I do thank those who have tried. I even thank those of you who are trying to be humorous. Then there are the "others" who chum the waters, bait an argument, then pile on with no intentions of helping whatsoever. These trolls are all over this board and are always shouting "you're doing it wrong" whenever a newbie asks a newbie question rather than helping. It's embarrassing.
> So now I will start a new breeding program and I will mix different morphs until I get a new, cool colored frog. Not only because it will anger all the know it alls, but because I feel like it. (See, I can troll too)
> ...


What is wrong with you?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Play nice. This thread is very close to being overboard.

This applies to _everyone_.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

<redacted, Catfur>
Btw the original question stands, how much dewormer and how often do you deworm pumillio with tapes.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

frogface said:


> Umm your father is a veterinarian. Why on earth are you looking for answers to questions about animal medicine from a bunch of non-veterinarians on the Internet? It makes no sense.
> 
> Here is my uninformed opinion: Contact a professional. ASK YOUR DAD.
> 
> ...


My dad has been working exclusively with cats and dogs for the last 35 of his 40+years as a vet. Still, he has forgotten more about frogs than I will ever know. He was the first voice I sought and he knows the right medication but struggled to find dosage info on an amphibian that small. I was wrong to assume a simple question would lead to a simple answer
Thanks for the info on the vets.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

Was not my intention.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

It probably was redacted because it was inflammatory... You didn't get exactly what you wanted so you started a whole rant about people not being helpful...


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I see that you have been a member of DB since 2007...there have been posts about worming in other threads, and perhaps I'm mistaken, but "doseages" have been noted. It is more a question of WHICH medication would eliminate (pardon the pun...) the tapes if that indeed is the problem... The tone of your posts is what is bogging down the discussion...and your provocative challenges are downright infantile... Your dad should have easy access for the information you are seeking...end of discussion.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

If I follow the practices of my own vet, she determines the dose based on the weight of the frog and then dilutes as is appropriate for that particular frog. You need a professional.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

OP probably has the best answer he/she will get. Thread closed.


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