# Ideal azureus setup



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi all...thanks in advance for your responses...  

I have a pair of azureus that are currently housed in a standard 20G tank. They seem perfectly happy, are both chubby and show no outward signs of ill-health. I have had them for approximately 4 months and in this time they have produced exactly 4 eggs. Two seperate clutches of two eggs each, spaced about 2.5 months apart. All of these eggs failed to show any signs of development after being removed from the viv (waited 48 hours both times before pulling them to allow for fertilization). Tank conditions are standard from what I have read around here...

Now after all the background info, I cut to the chase...

This pair of darts will be moving into a new 30G display tank as soon as it is completed (~1 month). This will give them more room and hopefully produce better breeding results. 

I have read that keeping azureus in a 2.1 group can produce excellent breeding results. Adding another male has also been suggested to me by a prominent Canadian breeder.

So here's the topic for debate: Am I better off adding another male, or sticking with my pair and hoping they get their act together?

Thanks again for your replies. 8) 

Cheers.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Im not sure there is a known "ideal" setup, as many things works. I will say there are a number of people who believe keeping many of the species in pairs is the best solution. In my opinion tincs/azureus are best kept as a pair.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I agree, pairs work best in my opinion. Males will wrestle and injure each other, even kill each other a lot of times. I had two males with a female azureus in a 20 gallon tank to spark some breeding... one male broke the other male's arm, and the injured male never fully recovered after I separated them.  If you can't seem to get them to breed by themselves, I would get another male (or another pair) and just switch out the males. I have two males, when the pair stops breeding, I switch males, and they all start to breed again. Good luck


----------



## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I agree, pairs work best in my opinion. Males will wrestle and injure each other, even kill each other a lot of times.


Agree with the pairs, but disagree with _males_ being the aggressive ones. I don't discount Bryan's observations, but my experience has been that _females_ display aggression with other females. I've been fairly successful with azureus production, pairs and community tanks, and base my observations on that. 
Many on this board recommend a ratio (if not 1.1) more like 2.1...
Regards,
Scott


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Yes, female's are more aggressive than males in my observations. I'm sure a 2.1 group can get along relatively well if they were raised together, but otherwise can be difficult. Basicly, yes, IMO femalesa are more aggressive, but males can be almost as aggressive, so I wouldn't do a 2.1 either.


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your experiences guys. 8) 

I'm glad I posted here first before running out and purchasing another frog! I think I will get another pair after the new tank is done and try switching out the males if breeding doesn't take off.

Thanks again for your responses - if anyone else would like to chime in, feel free! 

Cheers!


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

So, I have mucho strangeness to report - followed closely by a woohoo! So bear with me... 8) 

On Wednesday night, we had unexpected overnight house guests. They slept in the living room (where the frog tank is located). When I left for work at 6:45am, all was well. I guess my girlfriend came out around 7:30 and saw that our guests were still sleeping - hard to do with a 4ft shop light illuminating the room. So my girlfriend, thinking she was being helpful, draped a window blind over the lights/frog tank. If you are having trouble picturing this there are pics of the blind in question here in my lighting thread (http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34050).

Everyone left for the day with that blind hanging over the tank. When I got home from work at 4:30, I wound up the blind and put it back in it's usual position. This blind is covered with a reflective background that is sort of like cheap tinfoil. It does make quite a loud 'crinkling' noise when you move it. 

A few minutes later, I went to feed the frogs and opened their tank. My male began tearing around the tank, seemingly in a panic. I couldn't find my female for about 5 minutes until I discovered her cowering behind their cocohut. This is very strange behavior for them - they are usually out and about all day and sitting there waiting like dogs when it's feeding time. I decided to go ahead and feed them, but neither made any attempt to hunt. I watched for a few minutes as they both just retreated into the cocohut and stayed there. I figured the best thing for them was to give them some space, so I left them alone for the rest of the night. The only thing I could figure that would have caused them to stress out like that is the blind over the tank. It is very possible that our 6 month old kittens spent a good part of the day playing with said window blind - thus making all kinds of terrifying noise for the frogs. It's the only variable. :roll:

This morning I woke up early to look in on the frogs. I usually hear my male calling around 6:30, but not today. I took out my flashlight to look for them (the tank lights come on at 7) and low and behold there is a large clutch of EGGS under their hut! 6 in total. Previous to this, they have only laid 2 infertile clutches of 2 eggs each.

I fed them tonight and they both came out to eat but were still very jumpy...they ran and hid every time I made a move to quickly outside the tank. If I move slowly and quietly they are fine.

So my questions (finally!) - what is the best thing I can do to de-stress them? Could the window blind have caused that kind of reaction or should I look for another source? Would they be reacting that way because they have eggs in tank? 

Thanks for the help - these are my first frogs, so I'm still learning the finer points of their care and behaviour.

Cheers,


----------



## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

Is the blind mirrored? They could have thought there was two other frogs in the tank with them.


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

HappyHippos1 said:


> Is the blind mirrored? They could have thought there was two other frogs in the tank with them.


The blind is definitely reflective...but I don't think I would say it's mirrored.


----------



## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

afterdark said:


> - what is the best thing I can do to de-stress them? Could the window blind have caused that kind of reaction or should I look for another source? Would they be reacting that way because they have eggs in tank?
> Cheers,


Frogs are often stressed when not offered enough hiding spots. Azureus _typically_ aren't shy frogs, but have you provided plenty of "retreat" areas? Something to consider as you said you're working on a new tank for them...
Doubtful that the recent egg laying would be a factor, although who knows...hormones racing can cause strange things.
Scott


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

SMenigoz said:


> have you provided plenty of "retreat" areas? Something to consider as you said you're working on a new tank for them...
> Doubtful that the recent egg laying would be a factor, although who knows...hormones racing can cause strange things.
> Scott


Thanks Scott...

Unfortunately, their current enclosure does not provide very many hiding spots. It is a very simple 20G with a false bottom, aquarium gravel and pothos. There are few clumps of leaves that they can hide under/behind, but other than that, it is just their cocohut. I purchased the frogs and the tank directly from the breeder (he was getting out of the hobby). Thanks for the insight, I will try to think of something else I can place in their tank to give them a little more security until their new pad is complete. 8) 

On the egg front, I'm not sure what to think...
All 6 eggs are still there - I have not moved them at all to minimize stress on the frogs. Two of the eggs appear white and 'flattened out'. The other 4 are black and solid but appear exactly the same as when I found them on Thursday morning...I wonder if they have been fertilized?? :?:


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Egg updates!

I looked in yesterday morning and it appeared that the frogs had squished one of the eggs that had been developing, so I decided to pull the eggs out of the viv. Looks like there are three remaining good eggs.

Pic ONE taken Wednesday night around 7pm:









Pic TWO taken tonight at 6pm:









These are my first viable eggs - so I'm jacked! 8) 8) 8)


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

I decided to remove the bad eggs and took a couple of updated shots.

7:30pm:









And a shot of the little guy on the left. He's kinda flipped on his side a bit and doesn't have nearly as much jelly around him as the other two:


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

I received my second pair of azureus about half an hour ago! 8) 

They are still in the tank their previous owner had them in - a standard 20 with some aquarium gravel in the bottom. There is a sandwich container filled with photos and what looks like dirt from his backyard. 8) He surprised me by bringing them today - I was expecting them after Xmas. Long story short, I don't have place ready for these guys to go. 

I COULD make a temporary quarantine container - I've got some Tupperware and paper towels kicking around...but are they better off staying where they have been living for X number of months? Stress-wise I mean? I'm sure they are pretty scared... - scratch that - I just heard him call! :lol: 

Male:









Female:


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Keep them in the tank they were brought in until you've got their new place ready and set up. It's not the most glorious set up, but it works, and it's better to leave them there under less stress and give their permanant home the time it needs to be awesome.


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> Keep them in the tank they were brought in until you've got their new place ready and set up. It's not the most glorious set up, but it works, and it's better to leave them there under less stress and give their permanent home the time it needs to be awesome.


Thanks very much for the reply Corey!

I'm going to take your sage advice and leave them where they are - as you said, it's not the prettiest, but it works. 

Thanks again. 8)


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

There are a number of keepers in other countries that keep their frogs like that so it can't hurt... not like they are able to ingest gravel that size :lol:


----------

