# Black Jean/ Frog Lines/ Mixing ?



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I want to know where everyone obtained theirs from and if they have mixed them with other lines of Black Jeans(you can pm if you don't wanna say).

I am just trying to see if the idea behind them all is that others think they are all same or if different.

I do have 2.0 Frye and 0.0.2 Nahn (probable females).

I just don't want to screw up the lines if they are from different lineages which is what matters to me or if they are all same imports.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

I think your best bet is to contact Rich and Robert. Its possible that the Almazan line is the same as either of those two, or it could be unrelated. But Rich seems quite sure that his line and Robert's line are different. 

Most people I know who have either, don't cross them. Some people may tell you its ok just to make a sale, because they received bad info, or b/c they have some piece of info that says its ok to mix them. But typically Rich knows exactly where his stuff came from and who else has it... 

Hopefully some people will chime in with some additional info...


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

OK, [and not directed at the OP, but the community at large, since we have gazillions of threads like this]

This I am sure will be met with opposition but here it goes....

Who cares? , [respectfully said of course].

"Black Jeans"....anyone know of a population with a label "Black Jeans" on their backs??

Anyone have any idea of the exact origin location of the frogs in the USA, or Europe or wherever?

NOPE.

Anyone planning to reintroduce said "Black Jeans" to the illustrious WILD?

NOPE.

These frogs are destined to live out their years inside a glass box. To be enjoyed, photographed, and if you are lucky bred, traded etc. Their lives will undoubtedly be too short, for the most part. And most keepers will never do much more then just have them in their homes for a few years, feed them, and move on.

So, does it really matter what Frye or Nhan or Alamazan say? Nope.

They _have _been mixed, many times, by many people. Guaranteed. 

If you are taking the stand that you _prefer_, Nhan's frogs over others, and want to keep that name going. Then by all means. But for goodness sake, we need to stop worrying about 'contaminating' the genes of these frogs by mixing offspring from one breeder with another. It really doesnt matter in the long run until the frogs can be farmed, and are of a known locale, from a trusted source....


and even then, dare I say it, does it matter still? given that this is a hobby, with pets in cages, and no one is saving the frog world by keeping imaginary lines 'pure'. 

If someone [note recent threads] can substantiate a true breeding project in situ, that involves a single location founding stock, then by all means, keep them separate. If for nothing else, then to avoid screwing up someones hard work to get them to you....[Would we be debating this if it was Understory? no]

But the rest of the debates about old lines of imitators and intermedius and pumilio etc, etc, and [have you seen the same debate with....?] tincs, etc, is just silly IMHO. They are just frog pets, and likely mislabeled by countless froggers before you. 

Its not a pure hobby, the community is no longer a tight knit small group with their names on each import they did.

my 1 cent


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> OK, [and not directed at the OP, but the community at large, since we have gazillions of threads like this]
> 
> This I am sure will be met with opposition but here it goes....
> 
> ...


Shawn, would you then advocate the mixing of all the blue jean lines? The mixing of the new Siquirres with Rich's 'Siquirres black jeans,' the mixing of the old line salt creeks with the new salt creeks, del drago colons with old-line colons with EU colons, the mixing of all the bastis, rfb's with others. I understand your point, but I think that is a very slippery slope, and it seems to fly in the face of the general consesnus that hybridization and mixing of locales is bad...

Our current bloodline/locales management may not be perfect, but lets not let perfect get in the way of better, no?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

cbreon said:


> Shawn, would you then advocate the mixing of all the blue jean lines? The mixing of the new Siquirres with Rich's 'Siquirres black jeans,' the mixing of the old line salt creeks with the new salt creeks, del drago colons with old-line colons with EU colons, the mixing of all the bastis, rfb's with others. I understand your point, but I think that is a very slippery slope, and it seems to fly in the face of the general consesnus that hybridization and mixing of locales is bad...
> 
> Our current bloodline/locales management may not be perfect, but lets not let perfect get in the way of better, no?


Craig

You are right, we do need to try 'better', but we direct our efforts to the wrong projects.

Lets support better husbandry, better communication, true FR animals.

The rest is just fun. Pets in glass boxes.

I don't want to poke holes in your examples above....  But I will if you force me...lol

Lets face it, the hobby takes a hard stance on this subject, b/c 1. internet is full of experts. 2. new froggers might 'screw things up', or that is the worry 3. We like controversy, 4. no one wants the ball python hobby to be impressed by the designer darts of the future. 5 there is a 'dream' that someday the hobby will be called upon to repopulate the worlds lost frogs.

If we went through the origin of all the frogs you have, one by one, viv by viv I will bet a dime there are animals housed together where their exact origin is questionable, may not be same 'line', same 'year of import', same 'trusted breeder'. And you probably have a cleaner set up then most others.

We take this too far sometimes. "Cant mix a cristobal from 2010 with one from 2011, that would be heresy!"

Lets go back to Black Jeans again. Its a red frog, with black ish legs, generally larger then most, typically spotted although their offspring arent always so. Presumed from 'Siquirres Costa Rica' but I bet my little finger there are many similar locales/towns with that type of pumilio in CR. 

Name me a source that I can trust, that is unbiased, that has nothing to gain, can be identified as truly farming that supplies "Black Jeans" to the US hobby?

Its hard isnt it? Without just naming controversial sources, or just typing what you have heard/seen before. 

Now if Brian Kubicki bred and exported Siquirres animals to Mark Pepper, or whatever. Then hey, I'd keep mine separate, like they were made of gold. 

I'm just saying....lets not take things too far. 

Lets not kid ourselves that one froggers animals are more special then another, or that they will 'hybridize' to freaks if you put them together.

Every source should be take into consideration individually though, I think you agree, and we certainly can help sort out the specific question someone has about their 'extra special Anocon Hill auratus from 2010'


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Good to see you coming around, Shawn.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> Craig
> 
> You are right, we do need to try 'better', but we direct our efforts to the wrong projects.
> 
> Lets support better husbandry, better communication, true FR animals.


Agreed, but if we had only tried to manage past imports of things like historonicus their might be more around. I think Panama will eventually close its doors and its possible that will be forever. So I think that discussions like these are neccessary to implement or encourage some sort of management. I like to talk about these different situations in the hope that they help drive some 'best practices.'




sports_doc said:


> Lets face it, the hobby takes a hard stance on this subject, b/c 1. internet is full of experts. 2. new froggers might 'screw things up', or that is the worry 3. We like controversy, 4. no one wants the ball python hobby to be impressed by the designer darts of the future. 5 there is a 'dream' that someday the hobby will be called upon to repopulate the worlds lost frogs.


1. true
2. true
3. that might be true, depending on the day
4. true
5. can't say I haven't thought about it...




sports_doc said:


> Every source should be taken into consideration individually though, I think you agree,


I completely agree. As I just said to someone on dd, we almost need a community effort, or a frog panel of sorts, to implement some sort of policy for each locale/situation. But, in the same breath, that sort of sounds like 'the fun police' to me. My point to the OP, is lets not rush to conclusions, lets discuss. Ultimately, this is the type of discussion that will help drive the management of black jeans. There are now some threads with the info for people to make a slighty more informed decision. But like you mentioned, our info for these frogs is far from perfect.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

You mean I'm not saving the world, one frog at a time? Damnit all to hell.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm working with black jeans from both Frye and Nahn lines and I personally do not mix the lines. 

I spend a lot of time with the frogs I have and when I’m in my frog room, I can always tell the Frye line from the Nahn line of black jeans with only one characteristic: the label I put on the tank. =)

To go along with what Shawn has said, if I took a female from each line, put them in a cup, and then had to identify which is which, I don’t think I could do it.

The other side of the coin is that if you do breed and have froglets, they should be properly labeled as Nahn/Frye line, which could have some impact on selling them.


Brad


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

TWI really tried to help this effort with TMP's Craig....

they ran out of help/steam/volunteers with the TMP's which need constant updating.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> You mean I'm not saving the world, one frog at a time? Damnit all to hell.


Its a sobering reality, I know, lol!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Dendrobati said:


> The other side of the coin is that if you do breed and have froglets, they should be properly labeled as Nahn/Frye line, which could have some impact on selling them.
> 
> 
> Brad



Brad,

If it does, then my guess is people are over reacting about the label. They should just be darn happy they can work with such a cool little frog, and forget the Nhan/Fry stuff....


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> Brad,
> 
> If it does, then my guess is people are over reacting about the label. They should just be darn happy they can work with such a cool little frog, and forget the Nhan/Fry stuff....


I would say that its still important to know where the frogs came from. If for nothing less then to prevent breeding the same genetics over and over again, if it can be avoided...


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

sports_doc said:


> Brad,
> 
> If it does, then my guess is people are over reacting about the label. They should just be darn happy they can work with such a cool little frog, and forget the Nhan/Fry stuff....



Trying to take a neutral stances on it I left that part out - but yes, my personal opinion would be that there is no reasonable reason for mixing Nahn and Frye lines to impact the salability.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

cbreon said:


> I would say that its still important to know where the frogs came from. If for nothing less then to prevent breeding the same genetics over and over again, if it can be avoided...


Do you accomplish NOT breeding the same genetics over and over again by mixing the lines or by not mixing the lines?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

cbreon said:


> I would say that its still important to know where the frogs came from. If for nothing less then to prevent breeding the same genetics over and over again, if it can be avoided...


Ha...exactly.

One potential piece advocating against breeding same, with same, with same, etc....is the 'West Virginia Syndrome' WVS.... LOL [sorry WV, its just a stereotype....maybe it isnt true].

Whats our goal?

Healthy captives.

Happy froggers.

Rid the world of DD.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Dendrobati said:


> Do you accomplish NOT breeding the same genetics over and over again by mixing the lines or by not mixing the lines?


Always a concern when the founding stock includes only a few animals. But a decent import of 5 or 10 pairs, properly managed, could be enough for many, many, many healthy generations. But in the past, we have seen some situations where most of animals the hobby was working with originated from a single pair and it seemed to result in breeding difficulties...

I am currenlty having a discussion with someone else about mixing or not mixing the black jean lines too. I see both sides of the argument, my goal was to encourage the discussion and not make a hasty decision to mix the lines. This situation might be different than some others, in that, the black jeans likely originated in the same reigion or neighoring regions of CR. Conversely, blue jeans originate from different reigions from several countries that are hundreds of miles apart and likely represent popultaions that shouldn't be mixed, IMO...


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

If I recall Craig, TWI was advocating a founding stock of 25 pairs.

Maybe Ron can help with that information. 

Anyway, I'd like to hear the other 'side' of the discussion....if you want to help decipher.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ Your comments about "Blue Jeans" is likely quite true...although....we will never know for sure.

That is why no one is ever, ever going to do anything with "Blue Jeans" in the hobby, other then enjoy them for what they are. Pets.

Thanks for the discussion Craig.

Best,


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

I think of these captive frog lines like cans of paint. Without any label on them, we do not know the color or how to mix it again. The cans of paint may look very similar, but there is no way of telling, for certain, if they are similarly sourced.

If you are going to mix these paints it requires that you remove paint from different cans (subtracting from them). Once mixed, they can no longer be seperated and will forever be "brown" paint. If you add the brown paint back in to either original can, you will never achieve the original color.

If our goal is to keep these animals as close to natural as possible, there is a good case for maintaining seperate lines. 

If that is not our goal, then there is a good argument for going all ball python and creating albino Rio de Cristolons and hypomelanistic _D. tincauratamelas_.

Don't worry. Be happy. -Bobby McFerrin
Good tune. Poor managment strategy. -Chris Sherman


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Chris, just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, how close to nature is a population that already has a limited gene pool due to a small number of founders and is further limited by inbreeding by us trying to stay strict to an arbitrary import line or year?

I think we'd see some significant genetic drift from wild populations if we looked at some of the old lines that are around.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

After reading this and getting points from everyone, getting in trouble two people that I deeply respect, and getting information I would like to make some things known.

First and foremost, I never asked anyone directly where this stock or that stock came from. I want anyone that has thought that this person or that person told me this or that to get that out of their head because I do not appreciate it. I also want everyone to know that if you want to ask me anything feel free but I do not respect or even condone actions of disrespect to someone that has not weighed in or even spoken to me directly about this.

Second, the reason I went and asked this question was that I was told multiple times from multiple people who own these frogs that they have mixed and combined the three lines. I started this discussion to get the actual facts known. However I did not wish to upset others because it is not my intentions. I wanted to know the facts and if they can or can't because cbreon brought some things to light from another post that started to question my research on where Frye got his from.

Third, I am tired of you people speaking for Frye. If he wants to say something tell him to come here. I don't care if he choose to do things in the past that where questionable or not, but *I want him to say where he obtained his stock from*. If he directly obtained them from an importer that brought them in from EU or CR it will answer questions. I would say the same with Charles Almazon, however as someone mentioned he no longer is apart of the hobby due to things he choose to do.

Fourth, I also agree we need a better record keeping then we have but as Shawn said their is no real way to do it. A frog is a frog and that is simple. I only really think hybridization matters when we cross two very distinctly different locality named frogs or species, I.E. 'Black Jean x Cauchero' or 'Cobalt x Leuc'. I don't think that when we DO have the proper information similar to 'Blue Jeans' that we shouldn't mix them because it is obviously their our differences in origin.

Fifth and final. I want to apologize to anyone that I offended and really did not mean to cause that to happen. I wanted to make points that were given to me and stated to me by others that have been in the hobby far longer then myself or even from people that our considered Sponsors on this site. I will do my research privately from now on and just give my opinions if personally asked or PM'd.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Spaff,

I do not think this is a Black and white issue, and that managment of these animals is important and worth our time to think about and discuss.

Our best efforts to emulate natural populations are most likely going to come up short. That does not mean we should not try. Frogs have a healthy life span and can reproduce for a long time. F3 produced 20 years after initial import is not unreasonable.* I'd like to think that 20 years from now repeatable, farmed animals can be obtained and we can let some of these confused lines go. Founder stock size, for the importations in hand are set. They are likley too low if 25 pairs is the benchmark for a minimum as previously mentioned in this thread. Managing these populations my prove purely academic, but would serve as good and much needed practice for if and when we can aquire proper founding stock. Future importation methods could impact founder stock numbers, but that is another issue.

Unless we assign numbers to offspring and pair them up with the role of the dice, we will be "selecting": Fattest, grows most quickly, prettiest, slowest, etc.. Being concious of these things and mitigating them to the best of our ability as a whole would be a good thing.

Chris.

*citation needed.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Sherman said:


> F3 produced 20 years after initial import is not unreasonable.*/QUOTE]
> 
> Chris,
> 
> ...


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## Ebiforest (Jan 25, 2013)

VenomR00 said:


> I will do my research privately from now on and just give my opinions if personally asked or PM'd.


Hey Brian,
Your efforts are appreciated (cbreon also), please don't go the private route. If I have blue jeans, I would ask the same questions.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Chris, the cans of paint analogy is good!

'lines' however are made up.

No one's making [I sincerely hope] the mistake of saying Black Jean'ed-cristo-colonoco is the goal.

But really, a Cristobal from 2010 is that much different from 2011? 2012?

And a "Black Jean", is a made up nothing distinction, without a locale.

There are a lot of 'Colon' pumilio from years past importations being called Bocas Del Drago Colon. B/c their legs are yellow. Know what?...."regular" Colon produce orange and yellow legged offspring too....

So .... are Drago Colon 'real'? Probably not all in the hobby are truly from that region. Would it keep you from putting a Male with yellow legs together with one with green legs....if they were both Colon? 

I certainly hope not.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> Chris, the cans of paint analogy is good.


Thank you. I like that one too.
Different importations can be looked at as individual cans of paint. So if each "line" can be traced to a specific importation that is unique from the other "lines", a distinction can be made. Yes they look alike, but...



sports_doc said:


> But really, a Cristobal from 2010 is that much different from 2011? 2012?


If one of those imports is a mainland form that looks like a Cristobal and is therefore labeled as a Cristobal than yes, they are very different.

Herein lies the heart of this issue: 
In the absence of information, as a general rule what should we do?
A.) Assume that animals that look alike, are alike.
or
B.) Assume that animals that look alike, are not necessarily alike.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> If I recall Craig, TWI was advocating a founding stock of 25 pairs.
> 
> Maybe Ron can help with that information.
> 
> Anyway, I'd like to hear the other 'side' of the discussion....if you want to help decipher.


For new groups for long term viability, 25 pairs is a good starting point to maximize diversity however contrary to many people's comments, groups can be managed with a much smaller founding population. The genetic diversity will not be robust but with good management and guidance it can be sustainable for 100-200 years. A classic example of this is with the Przewalski's horse which through careful management has been resurrected from less than 15 original founders which was allowed to bottleneck down to 9 animals.. 



sports_doc said:


> TWI really tried to help this effort with TMP's Craig....
> 
> they ran out of help/steam/volunteers with the TMP's which need constant updating.


Actually one of the biggest hurdle with the TMPs was the fact that there was virtually no participation with registering the frogs for tracking genetics by the hobby. 
This paralleled the lack of interest in Frogtracks. see Robb's site Robbster.com 

Ed


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

VenomR00 said:


> Fourth, I also agree we need a better record keeping then we have but as Shawn said their is no real way to do it. A frog is a frog and that is simple.


As for record keeping, start small. Lead by example. Keep good records of what you produce and send them along with any offspring. Not only will it allow your animals to stand out of the crowd, but perhaps people will begin to expect background information with thier frogs. Someone should start a thread about what you would want on a frog's "Birth Cirtificate". Seriously.



VenomR00 said:


> Fifth and final. I want to apologize to anyone that I offended and really did not mean to cause that to happen. I wanted to make points that were given to me and stated to me by others that have been in the hobby far longer then myself or even from people that our considered Sponsors on this site. I will do my research privately from now on and just give my opinions if personally asked or PM'd.


I echo Ebiforest, do not go private. These matters have substance. Open discussion is what will help bring this community to a consensus on these matters.

If not for these discussions we would have a bunch of fist fights in the dark corners of every reptile show. 
"First rule of FrogClub: You don't talk about FrogClub."

Sincerely,
Chris


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> Chris, the cans of paint analogy is good.
> 
> 'lines' however are made up.
> 
> ...


But, along that line of thinking, the old salt creek and new salt creek should be mixed, no? What about rfbs and cem Bastis? Why not all the popa, despite differences in size and phenotype? A slippery slope, and a regression into the days of 'green' pumilio if you ask me...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The elephant in the room that somehow seems to be missing from this discussion is the risk of outbreeding depression.. There are a number of comments related to the idea of risk from inbreeding depression but no one seems to be mentioning outbreeding... 

Outbreeding depression is known to occur in anuran populations (including those separated by relatively short geographic distances) and can be a cause of extinction of both captive and wild populations. The fact that two populations may be geographically close to one another does not in any way indicate that that are linked (either directly or indirectly) via gene flow....only a careful evaluation of the population(s) can determine this... One of the most significant risks of outbreeding depression is the fact that the negative effects of it can take up to 5 generations to appear... in the meantime the animals in question may show crossbred vigor causing the owners to think that the animals in question are genetically healthy. 

This has been discussed extensively on this forum including references that indicate that outbreeding is a greater potential risk to a population and that it potentially should be the avenue of last resort.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> The elephant in the room that somehow seems to be missing from this discussion is the risk of outbreeding depression.. There are a number of comments related to the idea of risk from inbreeding depression but no one seems to be mentioning outbreeding...
> 
> Outbreeding depression is known to occur in anuran populations (including those separated by relatively short geographic distances) and can be a cause of extinction of both captive and wild populations. The fact that two populations may be geographically close to one another does not in any way indicate that that are linked (either directly or indirectly) via gene flow....only a careful evaluation of the population(s) can determine this... One of the most significant risks of outbreeding depression is the fact that the negative effects of it can take up to 5 generations to appear... in the meantime the animals in question may show crossbred vigor causing the owners to think that the animals in question are genetically healthy.
> 
> ...


And this is one of the primary motivations behind keeping imports separate when possible. I agree with Shawn that keeping some of these separate is easier than others, but again where it makes sense we must try. Furthermore, why not keep lines separate if people have intentionally done so for several years and generations? That is assuming they are from separate imports or populations...


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## Ebiforest (Jan 25, 2013)

sports_doc said:


> There are a lot of 'Colon' pumilio from years past importations being called Bocas Del Drago Colon. B/c their legs are yellow. Know what?...."regular" Colon produce orange and yellow legged offspring too....
> 
> So .... are Drago Colon 'real'? Probably not all in the hobby are truly from that region. Would it keep you from putting a Male with yellow legs together with one with green legs....if they were both Colon?
> 
> I certainly hope not.


Going with your analogy....

We have Tarapoto Imitators- Tor Linbo and INIBCO/UE line. I've read that the INIBCO/UE offsprings may look exactly like Tor line.

So, would it be okay to mix these? They are both Tarapoto.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I would agree with using as much info as we have, knowing something is what it is would mean keeping it separate from unknowns. I would however agree with Shawn on this point separating a frog like Cristobal by import year is not necessary with the exception being the Bahia Grande and even those someone might question. We don't know where these Cristobal imports were collected aside from Cristobal in general...and this does not mean main land Cristobal as there is no such frog, just a poor choice of someone naming a new locale because it was similar to something known. 
The Popa's seem to present a more diverse spectrum of island populations and those sadly I would say would be ID'd visually or perhaps by import date.
As for black jeans knowing where yours come from is great but unless you know where the other imports came from you can never be sure if they are the same locale or not.
The amount of info we have today is more easily accessible than it has even been however obviously there is not enough. Using common sense and good judgment and hopefully having froggers responsible enough to properly manage these is all we can ask. It's nice when cooperative effort can bring more info into the light...kind of the way the hobby used to be during friendlier times.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> And this is one of the primary motivations behind keeping imports separate when possible. I agree with Shawn that keeping some of these separate is easier than others, but again where it makes sense we must try. Furthermore, why not keep lines separate if people have intentionally done so for several years and generations? That is assuming they are from separate imports or populations...


 
The real issue at hand is that the lines have already been mixed and in at least some cases sold out into the hobby. 

So this brings us to the real question since people are not managing their populations for genetic diversity and health (including those with "known local" frogs) where do they go from here? Contrary to many people's beliefs including those touted by some on other forums breeding like to like is not sustaining genetic diversity or even coming close to sustaining the genetic diversity needed for a thriving population. The loss of genes that code for immune function is a huge threat yet we continually hear people say, "I've bred my frogs together for ten or 14 years and haven't seen any signs of inbreeding... " when they don't ever check for loss of genetic diversity... All it takes is for novel pathogen exposure and the population can crash... this has happened repeatedly in our history including that of our pets.. for example the massive loss of dogs due to the emergence of parvovirus (and the continual threat to specific breeds like rottweilers due to poor immune system genetic diversity, captive bred angle fish in the 198os with a then novel virus).... 

So the real question is since the populations are already screwed up because the majority of the hobby doesn't give a fecal moment to correctly manage genetic diversity for a healthy captive population, does it matter if the frogs are outcrossed? So is it better to have the population eventually crash from inbreeding or outbreeding? To me they are both bad but the hobby for some reason, I can't fathom seems to think extinction due to mismanagement of the population is acceptable.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> I We don't know where these Cristobal imports were collected aside from Cristobal in general...and this does not mean main land Cristobal as there is no such frog, just a poor choice of someone naming a new locale because it was similar to something known.


So there is no possible way that those imports could have originated from a population that is from the main land?... Given the polymorphism found in pumilio in Panama, this is a bold statement. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

No Ed I meant the main land Cristobal were not Cristobal but a main land population that was imported and since it had similarities to Cristobal island frogs it was called main land Cristobal. Cristobal Island had not been imported at the time those were brought in, at least not imported through the channels bringing in frogs now and the main land frogs then.
The main land Cristobal's were very much from main land....man that's too many times using main land, where's Eric Clapton when you need him?


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

markpulawski said:


> No Ed I meant the main land Cristobal were not Cristobal but a main land population that was imported and since it had similarities to Cristobal island frogs it was called main land Cristobal. Cristobal Island had not been imported at the time those were brought in, at least not imported through the channels bringing in frogs now and the main land frogs then.
> The main land Cristobal's were very much from main land....man that's too many times using main land, where's Eric Clapton when you need him?


Sorry for the confusion, I was never refering to the "main land Cristobals". I was stating that "Cristobal" imports could have originated from the mainland and been mislabeled, illustrating the potential benefit to seperating import year and type. The existance of "main land Cristobals" does speak nicely to my point though.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Sherman said:


> "First rule of FrogClub: You don't talk about FrogClub."
> 
> Sincerely,
> Chris


You have a cracking good sense of humor Sherman.....


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I understand exactly why Chris feels this way (at least, at the moment ... ).

But how you go about it is very important.

Some people are more private than others - and I understand that completely.

s


Sherman said:


> ... I echo Ebiforest, do not go private. These matters have substance. Open discussion is what will help bring this community to a consensus on these matters.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ebiforest said:


> Going with your analogy....
> 
> We have Tarapoto Imitators- Tor Linbo and INIBCO/UE line. I've read that the INIBCO/UE offsprings may look exactly like Tor line.
> 
> So, would it be okay to mix these? They are both Tarapoto.


Says who?

Really....

I can believe the UE frogs came from a specific location and I can even email or call Mark Pepper and find out where/ or as close as he is willing to say etc.

But frogs from the EU from many, many years ago imports....who knows.

"Intermedius" ?? what is that? ect. 

My point is....lets not get all frog Nazi for the wrong reasons, or put all our focus on the wrong 'problem'.

And to the OP, this discussion is good, needed, and I dont think you did anything wrong by asking or by the way you asked.

1 cent more.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> You have a cracking good sense of humor Sherman.....


These topics are too serious to take too seriously.

We (both sides of these discussions) are the ones that care about the frogs. Our early demise due to "Frog Nerd" stress does not benefit the frogs.


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## Ebiforest (Jan 25, 2013)

sports_doc said:


> Says who?
> 
> Really....
> 
> ...


As far as I can tell, no one is advocating these line should be mixed. As you stated, the other line has no known locality.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That's exactly where it is, and should be, at.

s


Ebiforest said:


> As far as I can tell, no one is advocating these line should be mixed. As you stated, the other line has no known locality.


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Does anyone know much about the Kevin Moser line of black jeans? I've seen them once or twice in the classfields but my knowledge about them is little to almost nothing. I just wanted to throw that lineage out there in addition to the others previously mentioned.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Well thanks guys, I just don't want to step on people's toes. I wanted to bring this to light because I wanted to know the facts. Plus why not have an actual discussion with substance rather then the usual ones about why we shouldn't hybridized, they do get a bit old.

I don't have a strong background in science so I need some things cleared up really quick. I get what inbreeding in, but out-breeding is something that I know little on. What I want to understand is this. If you take two frogs from two localities and breed together you are combining two separate genes that cause an issue in the gene pool. So this means that as you continue breeding frogs out they are actually becoming weaker? Isn't that the same as people who breed WC into f1 then taking those f1's and breeding together to make f2 and so forth until you get to like f7 where the gene is so mushed full of the same stuff giving defects?

Also when we discuss this I want to bring an aspect of hybridization into this then since I want to understand something. If we where to breed something like 'Cauchero x Bastimento' or 'Azureus x Campana Auratus' is that technically out-breeding then? Then does that mean that the lines of Ball Python will be hitting its wall of out-bred soon?

Sorry if these have been told somewhere else but I wasn't shore and just wanted to get some facts. After I understand that I will say something else.

Another question I wanted to know is since Ed said that certain pathogens wiped out things wouldn't we have the same issue if we were to introduce F3 frogs that we have had captive bred for 10 years with a WC frog of the same locality and origin because that F3 frog wouldn't have the natural resistance that the Great-Grandfather had?


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

dendrothusiast said:


> Does anyone know much about the Kevin Moser line of black jeans? I've seen them once or twice in the classfields but my knowledge about them is little to almost nothing. I just wanted to throw that lineage out there in addition to the others previously mentioned.


My Siquirres Pumilio came from a person in California and then sold to another respected breeder back East years ago. I never imported or had a "line" of the Black Jeans.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Thank you Kevin for the clarification. 

Of course, people have been keeping your named line separated, why? cause they don't know anything else to do.

Which gets at my real point.. of my..does it matter?, statement. If the intent is to have a hobby, keep captives healthy, and to enjoy the frogs?

Now Ive heard through the grape vine the bad asses of Dark Den have their skirts in a ruffle.

Of course, their intent is to intimidate, and bully. Thats the way it goes with some.

Personally, I'm not interested in a debate. It is/was my opinion, and thats all it is. 

The immaturity of Dark Den can stay there....and for all I care, die off. 

The hobby doesn't need bullies.

When I finally know for sure what a Black Jeans is, and can be confident in the source of the 'line', then I'll try and help the conservation effort with management through TWI or whatever the hobby is doing formally and informally at that point.


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## RobertN (Apr 15, 2006)

Hello friends,

I want to clear up something. I never mentioned or suggested that my (Euro import) , Frye or Almazan’ lines are the same line/location and can be put together. I don’t think Frye or Almazan suggested that either. 

Thirty something years ago, I took a psychology class in which we did an experiment with 10 students. Student1 told a story to student2 without the present of student8-10. Then student2 told the same story to student3 and so on. At the end, the story was completely different than the original story. You understand what happens?

Perhaps someone got the “information” that these lines can be put together but what he/she should have done was to just ask the source about their lines. 

Forum is not for everyone and I don’t feel like I need to come here and defend or explain myself every time someone posted something on forums. 

Now to answer; can they be put together???…. There are already several discussions on this… This part, I don’t want to have any part in discussing further. For me, again, for me, not just with black jean but with any frog, if I don’t know for sure that they are the same, then I keep them separated. My choice. There are some frogs that I only get them from people that I trust, blue jean for example. I wouldn't take 'blue jean' from just anyone, even someone who offers for free.

For maintaining a species, I rely on myself to keep my frogs organized. They might be one or several generations but they are mostly “F1”. I have my own regimen of maintaining species but this is a different point. For me, I rather keep 3 pairs of one species then 3 pairs of 3 different species or lines. I understand that this is not for everyone and not practical for everyone. 

If you care enough about species maintenance, why not help some already existing groups like TWI, rather than “discussing” here in forums which often lead to nowhere. Action is louder than words.

People asked me why I don't post more regularly on forums. For me, again, for me, most “discussing” is more interrogation and/or confrontation rather than friendly discussion. More often, it leads to calling names…. this is not for me. I enjoy my hobbies with a small group of friends. My time is short. A while ago, my friend sent me a cooked formula for fruitflies. My reply was… either I eat cooked food or my frogs, and I prefer I eat cooked food. Time is short. 

My point is forums are not for everyone. Some of you sent me emails in the past with questions/recommendations, I always politely replied. There are no definitive way of doing most things. Just for example, driving on the left side or right side of the road is correct??? well depends on where you are in the world. What works for one, may not work for others. Whatever works for you, why change?

Lastly, this is a hobby. Respect your froggers. 

And very last, I do not wish to participate more on this thread. 

Respectfully,

Robert Nhan


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I figured I should include this as it was announced at MICROCOSM a couple weeks ago and will be announced through an official TWI newsletter very soon: the ASN as it has existed (i.e. dependent upon hobbyist participation for the registering/active management of captive frogs) has been dissolved and is being reformatted into something that will still be a sustainable resource for the hobby.

We can prepare all the TMPs we want, provide access to zoo/aquarium-level management systems for the average hobbyist, etc...but if no one actually participates in any of it, then it's a waste of time, energy and resources. What we came to realize is that people would rather spend their time debating and arguing on forums than actively/profitably participating in a system that would help alleviate some of this confusion. Given that this sort of system requires a certain critical mass in order to be valuable, and it was never achieved, we have decided to focus on a different set of goals.


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Exoticdarts said:


> My Siquirres Pumilio came from a person in California and then sold to another respected breeder back East years ago. I never imported or had a "line" of the Black Jeans.


Kevin thanks a bunch for the clarification - I got the answer I could not find after a couple of days searching online, thanks again!

Robert thanks for adding your insight as well - been meaning to get ahold of you for something else, hope all is well!


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