# New Patricia pair permanently damaged from lack of nutrients? HELP!



## Alanis1221 (Dec 1, 2013)

I stumbled upon a pair of 1 year old Patricia's for sale through a guy responding to my dart related post on CL. Being as I have always wanted Patricia's I ended up agreeing to pay $70 under the assumption they were healthy. Well I get the frogs at 5 am in a small deli cup and in my groggy state and in dim light they were beautiful and seemed fat so I paid him.

After putting them in their quarantine container, where they could move around I noticed something was definitely not right. It seems like they hop without ever extending their back legs. Their legs seem locked together and they are clumsy. They eat but very erratically nose diving at prey without grace and without extending out their tongue. Their skin seemed slightly Pruned on the sides and they move nothing like my other darts whom I take excellent care of. I suspected nutrient deficiency right away and asked him if a high quality supplement was used he said he NEVER dusted their prey items 😳 so that explains it. 
I have nursed back to health a blue azuerus on deaths door who's owner neglected him and who was riddled with parasites. After panacur, baytril and TLC one month later he is a different frog.
I soaked the Patricia's for 1 hour yesterday and today in rep-cal and spring water. I made a multivitamin paste as well and put it in their mouth. It seems they don't eat enough to get enough of the vitamins fast. 
SO....Do you guys feel that I should ask for my money back because the damage is permanent or should I keep them and nurse them back to health because they potentially could recover? I would feel horrible giving them back to him if they have a chance. Please any advice appreciated










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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Alanis1221 said:


> It seems like they hop without ever extending their back legs. Their legs seem locked together and they are clumsy. They eat but very erratically nose diving at prey without grace and without extending out their tongue.


The eating problem screams vitamin A deficiency, which is very common because most herp multivitamins do not have vitamin A in a form that frogs can use. I highly recommend getting repashy vitamin A plus (several sponsors carry it, and I've even seen it at petco). And while you're at it, get calcium plus too.

I'm no expert in this matter, but the clumsy movement could be calcium deficiency (Ca++ regulates muscle movement, nerve impulses). Maybe look into repashy rescuecal, which is made specifically for this scenario. I'd, uh, maybe wait for someone else to chime in on this matter though.

Also look into getting amphibian ringer's solution, or pedialyte for the frogs to soak in.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Alanis1221 said:


> I soaked the Patricia's for 1 hour yesterday and today in rep-cal and spring water. I made a multivitamin paste as well and put it in their mouth. It seems they don't eat enough to get enough of the vitamins fast.
> SO....Do you guys feel that I should ask for my money back because the damage is permanent or should I keep them and nurse them back to health because they potentially could recover? I would feel horrible giving them back to him if they have a chance. Please any advice appreciated


What solution did you use to soak the frogs? How did you make the vitamin paste? 
Make sure you give the seller a heads up of the problems you have noticed. Explain you are trying to get them fixed. See how it goes from there.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

We need someone with experience with Metabolic Bone Disease to weigh in here.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Hypostatic...please do not recommend Pedilyte...is not made for frogs, and is harmful. Please check the threads that address this, and look at the components of actual Amphibian Ringers...they are totally different. "Ed" has given many posts about this very subject...I wish it were possible to have a powdered form to just add to distilled water...but in Maryland it is not possible..I had some compounded to keep on hand...and Carolina Biological has some ready to use.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

I just contacted a well known vet in the dart frog community for a very similar issue with a friends frog - 

Response: "That poor frog looks like it is suffering from metabolic bone disease due to a lack of proper Calcium, Vitamins, and Mineral supplementation. I recommend using RepCal brand Herptivite and Ultrafine Ca w/ Vit D3. I doubt the frog will return to normal, but it should be offered more food and alternate the Vit mix with the Ca mix."


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## slimninj4 (Dec 31, 2013)

Can you put the vitimins in the water they sit in, instead of just dusting the FF? I was thinking about this the other day when I was watching them eat the flies. 

I do hope you can restore the frogs. It is from CL so not sure if you will have luck getting and monies back.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Sorry, re-reading my post it seems that I'm saying that pedialyte and amphibian ringer's solution are the same thing. I recommended it because I've seen several members on the forum recommend it _if no other option is available_:



Ed said:


> Amphibian ringers or if there is no other option pedialyte as it says in the linked thread....
> 
> Ed


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

cml1287 said:


> I just contacted a well known vet in the dart frog community for a very similar issue with a friends frog -
> 
> Response: "That poor frog looks like it is suffering from metabolic bone disease due to a lack of proper Calcium, Vitamins, and Mineral supplementation. I recommend using RepCal brand Herptivite and Ultrafine Ca w/ Vit D3. I doubt the frog will return to normal, but it should be offered more food and alternate the Vit mix with the Ca mix."


Given this veterinary diagnostic, i would then _highly _recommend using the repashy rescuecal, which was DESIGNED to be used for this scenario.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

To me they look to have short femur syndrome, the first bone in the back leg is about half the length is should be. It will effect the frogs locomotion skills and everything related, usually these frogs end up looking very fat due to extra compression on the stomach. It is hard to see when you don't have a frog to compare it to but if you have normal frogs put one of them next to one of the patricia's and look closely at the back legs, you will see the difference if they have it. The condition shows up sporadically, I am not sure what causes it but likely it is genetic as sometimes clutch mates will see normal and 1 with that condition. It is permanent but certainly not lethal, I would never breed a frog that has it. It is hard to see as I have seen vendors frogs have it and until pointed out it isn't even noticed.


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