# Smallest Tank for Azureus?



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I have a 12" x 12" hex tank. I calculated the area of the tank and the tank is 8 gallons. I know it's cutting it very close, but would an adult pair of Azureus be able to live in there without going crazy? I'll be using the "Great Stuff - Black Silicone - Peat Moss" method of landscaping and I can make the bottom of the vivarium basically flat for them to hop around on, along with a slope on the back wall with lots of ledges so they can climb up and chill. I'll have live plants in there for them to hop on, so basically my question is will I be able to get by with a pair in a 12" x 12" 8gal? Here's pictures of the tank...


















Just to say, I will be building an acrylic cover for the opening in the top of the tank.


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I found my answer for this. Does anyone have a suggestion on what species would be best for this tank? Thanks!


----------



## 31drew31 (Nov 14, 2010)

I didn't see the height mentioned, so depending on that some thumbs would be ok as long as it's around 18"+ tall. Otherwise IMO it's too small for anything but a grow out tank.


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

31drew31 said:


> I didn't see the height mentioned, so depending on that some thumbs would be ok as long as it's around 18"+ tall. Otherwise IMO it's too small for anything but a grow out tank.


It's 12" tall x 12" wide x 12" long but it's a hexagon so it is a bit less than a 12" x 12" x 12" cube. If it won't work for any type of Dart, I guess I'll have to get a different tank.


----------



## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I wouldn't suggest any frog for that tank. It is just way too small.


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

chesney said:


> I wouldn't suggest any frog for that tank. It is just way too small.


I guess this tank is out of question then. I'll start looking at other terrariums. Is 12" x 12" x 18" sufficient for a pair of Azureus?


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Percularis said:


> I guess this tank is out of question then. I'll start looking at other terrariums. Is 12" x 12" x 18" sufficient for a pair of Azureus?


It's not really any different of a footprint which is what matters for azureus, in fact it's effectively the same size. Why not use a larger rectangular aquarium? Also, if you're still planning on a waterfall then you're going to want to get a bigger tank so the frogs will still have room to stretch their legs out once in a while.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

That's really tight. There are people successfully keeping and breeding pairs of Azureus in a ten gallon viv but I like to give my frogs a little more room than that and would say a 20 gallon would be a better fit.


----------



## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

10 gallon bare minimum. I breed my azureus in a ten and they seem no less happy than when I had them in a 29 gallon. Bigger is better though. Not only for frogs, but that you can do way more with plants and tank design.

I'm moving mine to a custom acrylic once I get all my upgrades finished. It will be an 18" cube.

No matter how you ask or how many times you ask, no one is going to agree this tank is ok lol If you're trying to save money you're in the wrong hobby. You should be making sure you have access and can breed feeder insects for them. They can't eat those crickets pet stores sell so fruit flies will be needed to be cultured from 32oz cups every week. Also, dusting is IMPERATIVE to make sure they are healthy and get all their vitamins. You need to research the right ones to use. Repashy calcium plus is amazing and many people, including myself, are switching to it exclusively. 

Do your research buddy. You're scaring me making 10 threads since you've joined lol


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I was thinking of getting a springtail culture going. I don't want fruit flys in my house lol. Is a 12" x 12" x 18" okay? If so, would the Exo Terra or the Zoo Med be better?


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Percularis said:


> I was thinking of getting a springtail culture going. I don't want fruit flys in my house lol. Is a 12" x 12" x 18" okay? If so, would the Exo Terra or the Zoo Med be better?


I suppose its possible to feed springtails exclusively but I don't think many people would recommend that. You're going to need ALOT of them if thats all you intend to feed the frog. If you have a steady source of pin head crickets in your town and don't mind spending the money or are willing to try catching termites you could try that. You could also culture dwarf isopods (mini roli-polies..and similar to culturing springtails). I would at least go with a springtail/isopod combo for feeding a frog. Bean beetles, Rice Flour Beetles and phoenix worms are other options, or even really small meal worms (but azureus would be less likely to take small meal worms then other frogs that don't mind larger prey, same may go for some of the other possibilities mentioned and larger isopod species)

Are you sure a dart frog is right for you? You were wanting to put them in a tank that most consider to small, and now you don't want to have ff's which are the most common food source? Not trying to give you a hard time but there are certain realities when keeping any animal that you need to accept and be prepared for if your going to be a responsible pet owner. Its not quite as extreme but its almost like saying you want fish but don't want all the fuss of an aquarium filled with water 

As for the original tank size question, I think 1 adult frog or as a grow out tank for a couple froglets would be acceptable.


----------



## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I agree..it's not sounding like you'd be into the long haul of culturing flies weekly and keeping dart frogs. They're not for everyone that's for sure. Springtails are way too small and hard to keep up as a staple. There are plenty of other cool herps out there that you can get into. There's even larger frogs that would be great and could be housed in a planted vivarium. White's Tree frogs are huge and would be a lot of fun. Certain large Phyllomedusa monkey frogs are great as well, and some can be kept in more arid conditions. They will also take down crickets from your local pet store.

Honestly, Dart frogs are cool and I can see why a lot of people are becoming interested in them these days. But they're pretty advanced and it's a very involved hobby. It takes a certain type of person and as witnessed on this forum, the average person getting into dart frogs end up selling their entire set-ups within 6 months because it's just too much and the novelty and fascination wears off eventually. You have to really love these gems to want to dedicate the time into them. 

I left the hobby at one point myself. 5 years ago when my life was 100 times less stable than these days. Now I'm very settled down and grown up at 28 years old and decided to get back into them with a compromise from my fiance that I don't go overboard. It's fun for me and never work or chores, but I do need to be pretty diligent. I have fruit fly culture making days set on my cell phone alarm to go off when I need to make them. I keep detailed records this time around of every happening in my collection. Never been this diligent on husbandry and it makes a difference. Are you prepared to do things like this?


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Percularis said:


> I was thinking of getting a springtail culture going. I don't want fruit flys in my house lol. Is a 12" x 12" x 18" okay? If so, would the Exo Terra or the Zoo Med be better?


You do realize they're flightless, even wingless generally. They're no more of a mess than springtails if you're worried about them getting out.

ZooMed vs Exo Terra. Zoomed's 20 bucks cheaper. Do you want 1 door or 2? Frogs don't care either way.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Next to impossible. You really need fruit flies. The trick is to make sure your viv is fruit fly proof. You can also be in the habit of keeping a grape or chunk of banana in the viv so the flies will stay attracted to that. These things, along with care in culturing can eliminate escapees.


----------



## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

How would you even get calcium or vitamins to the frogs by just feeding springtails or isopods ?
Dan


----------



## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Percularis said:


> I was thinking of getting a springtail culture going. I don't want fruit flys in my house lol. Is a 12" x 12" x 18" okay? If so, would the Exo Terra or the Zoo Med be better?


I like the zoomeds better. Zoomeds have the single door and are much nicer IMO to view. The 2 door exo terra have a little slit where the doors meet, which can get in the way of viewing.


----------



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Percularis said:


> I was thinking of getting a springtail culture going. I don't want fruit flys in my house lol. Is a 12" x 12" x 18" okay? If so, would the Exo Terra or the Zoo Med be better?


The fruit flies aren't that big a deal. The ones for sale for the frogs are flightless! If they can't fly around your house, keeping them is not difficult, eh? Give it a try.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

"What is the smallest tank" is a bad question. The smallest tank necessary is the largest tank you can possibly provide. There are people breeding azureus in 10 gallons, but that's still really small. You should think bigger.

For tincs you have to have fruit flies. You might be able to get away breeding some of the very small thumbnails springs exclusively, we're thinking minuta, reticulata, some of the smaller fantastica like the uakarii. When tincs get to adult size, unless you're dealing with very large springtails, springtails tend to go primarily unnoticed.


----------



## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Yeah fruit flies are a must for tincs! I have quite of tincs, they are eating machines.


----------



## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

There's no cutting corners in this hobby. If you want to cut corners - ex: shove the frogs in a tiny tank, not feed them sufficient foods, or not feed the right foods, then this hobby isn't for you. 

Also try and use the search function and browse the forums for a while before posting new threads. Repeated threads don't bother me much (but they really bother others), and you can learn a lot more in all of those threads then in one single thread. 

Sorry if I sound harsh, I'm just trying to give the necessary advice to you.


----------



## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

i second the ff's they are so easy to keep and for me it stays very clean. the amount of springs needed to be used as the only feeder would be to much.....


----------



## clownonfire (Jan 18, 2011)

Percularis, you are getting a lot of great advice here, and you should really take it in. When I first got into darts, I posted my first viv here, and got lots of feedback, all honest, but some more subtle and some other definitely more straightforward, and less easy to digest. It might be hard to take, but listen to what's been said here. Darts might not be the frog for you. Frogs might not be for you overall. If you fear fruit flies escaping, what about crickets if you choose to go with a treefrog or other? Keeping dart is rewarding, and demanding. Recreating its natural environment is a lot of work. You just need to want to do the work. Would you buy a dog and never take it out for walks? Think about it.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Most of your questions have been answered here- but I wanted to remind you this: with azureus, it's all about the floor space. That should be one of the most important considerations when buying and planning a tank for them. They may use vertical space too, but mine are on the ground or very near it at least 90% of the time. 12x12x12 isn't going to cut it, nor will 12x12x18, nor will 12x12x36 for a pair of azureus (you see where I'm going here...) 
Plan the tank around the frog, not the other way around. If you want azureus, look at something like a 20 gallon set up horizontally. If you are dead set on a vertical tank, look at thumbnails, but I suggest starting with a larger frog. 
And don't try to feed an adult azureus (let alone a pair) on springtails alone... fruit flies will be way easier. 
Bryan


----------



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

dan d said:


> How would you even get calcium or vitamins to the frogs by just feeding springtails or isopods ?
> Dan


Isopods have some good nutrients, as do springs. Problem is, they are not so good at carrying vitamin supplements like flies. Different skin textures and size makes a difference here. Flies are required for vitamin supplementation, esp. if you want a healthy frog that lives beyond a year or two.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

earthfrog said:


> Isopods have some good nutrients, as do springs. Problem is, they are not so good at carrying vitamin supplements like flies. Different skin textures and size makes a difference here. Flies are required for vitamin supplementation, esp. if you want a healthy frog that lives beyond a year or two.


Thats a good point. Its going to be much harder to supplement your frogs (which you should do, *at least* periodically each month) using those feeders probably.


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I've dcided to get a fruit fly culture. I'll set a 10 gallon (maybe bigger) tank up a few weeks before I get the frogs so that I can get used to the vivarium. I'll set up a fruit fly culture when I set the vivarium up. In the meanwhile I'll do lots of research.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Percularis said:


> I've dcided to get a fruit fly culture. I'll set a 10 gallon (maybe bigger) tank up a few weeks before I get the frogs so that I can get used to the vivarium. I'll set up a fruit fly culture when I set the vivarium up. In the meanwhile I'll do lots of research.


If you're going to go with a 10 gallon, which is absolutely pushing it for the smallest tank you can keep them in, be sure to make it a good one.... Seems the smaller the tank the better it needs to be set up to have any kind of success.


----------



## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

From what he told me, his mother will NOT allow for fruit fly cultures. Sure you might get away with ordering one..but you need to be able to make them every week or so and understand the way the flies produce. Doesn't sound like something his mother will allow and the minute she sees flies crawling on the outside of the glass or in the room, she'll probably flip out.

If you are not just telling us what we want to hear, you can make fruit fly traps under your tanks that are strategically placed. A cup with vinegar and dish soap mixed in to break surface tension is what I have been using lately. Works good.

You said you're not setting up the tank for a couple months. If you order a fly culture now, it's probably not worth making new cultures week to week. Usually a few weeks before is fine...If you do it good you'd be producing THOUSANDS of flies with no frogs to feed for a few months.

Use this culture to practice making other cultures. Also, use it to practice tapping flies into a spare cup with a small amount of supplements on the bottom of the container so you can practice dusting and transferring flies. A good trick to prevent escapes when transferring flies into cup or making new cultures is to do it in the bath tub. I'm so quick and accurate now that I usually only have a couple hit the bottom of the tub. I keep a wet folded couple sheets of toilet paper for quickly killing the loose flies and flushing the paper.

I suggest WINGLESS melanogaster fruit flies. They don't escape quite as easy and are sort of clumsy without the wings. Winged flightless melanogaster can have males that fly if kept too warm. I notice they fly no matter what I do, at least towards the end of the cultures life when it gets old. Seems like the final generations are smaller fliers sometimes. Really annoying. I prefer wingless even though they might not produce as many, it's plenty for a few frogs. I feel a medium sized collection of 20 frogs or so and I produce plenty for my collection.

Even if you do your best to seal the tank, you WILL have escapes. I set a lot of traps recently because my roommate found a fly on the living room floor. BIG DEAL right? Well try and tell her that. I tell her I'm doing more to stop that but no matter what a few flies achieve freedom. Luckily once our lease is up in August, no more roommmates!!! lol
D


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

DJ...She said above that she's going to get a fly culture. I think in another thread she said that since that is the frog's staple diet, her mother said she'll allow it. I know you're expecting a baby soon (Congratulations!), but you really need to breathe! It seems to me that she's changing her plans as things are pointed out to her. She's trying to learn. Give her credit for that.

But, honestly...you dust your flies over your bathtub??? That honestly had me laughing out loud!


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

DJboston said:


> From what he told me, his mother will NOT allow for fruit fly cultures. Sure you might get away with ordering one..but you need to be able to make them every week or so and understand the way the flies produce. Doesn't sound like something his mother will allow and the minute she sees flies crawling on the outside of the glass or in the room, she'll probably flip out.
> 
> If you are not just telling us what we want to hear, you can make fruit fly traps under your tanks that are strategically placed. A cup with vinegar and dish soap mixed in to break surface tension is what I have been using lately. Works good.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips! It's good to know about those vinegar traps. My mom doesn't need to know about escapees lol. Should I feed once per day or split the feeding up throughout the day? And does over-feeding have any adverse effects like it does with fish? While we're on the topic of feeding, what do I put the flies in for the frogs to eat out of? Should I just dump the flies straight into the vivarium and let the frog find them? Sorry for all the questions at once lol


----------



## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Research dude! The information is on this website right in front of your face lol. No need for hand holding buddy ;-)

Once a day is fine. I usually feed when I get around to it in the morning or afternoon. Some of my adult frogs get days off here and there but everyone does things different.

Certain frogs get the flies dumped in the same spot everyday...others I scatter them if they don't come out to feed and eat thru the day instead (pumilio, thumbnails, etc.)

I dust every day. I used to have a 3 vitamin rotation but only use Repashy Calcium plus exclusively not. I don't see a need for the others. 

Don't underestimate frogs getting vitamin deficiencies because it can happen fast. Don't listen to anyone that works at a pet store if they suggest some zoo med vitamin for your frogs. Other herps may survive on them but these won't


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Percularis said:


> Thanks for the tips! It's good to know about those vinegar traps. My mom doesn't need to know about escapees lol. Should I feed once per day or split the feeding up throughout the day? And does over-feeding have any adverse effects like it does with fish? While we're on the topic of feeding, what do I put the flies in for the frogs to eat out of? Should I just dump the flies straight into the vivarium and let the frog find them? Sorry for all the questions at once lol


How often to feed seems to vary among froggers. Some people feed once daily, some every other day, and some only a few times a week. Some people say frogs should have 50 flies a day. While I've never counted flies...you can tell whether you need to feed more or less by how many flies are left in the viv the next day. If there's still quite a few flies...feed less next time. If there's no flies...feed a little more and see what you have in the viv the next day. After a few days, you should have it figured out.

Over-eating will cause negative effects in any living creature. (I think I read somewhere something about a frog's kidneys...not sure) But, yes, you do want to try to get as close to the right amount as you can. While a little overweight is probably better than having them underweight...you definitely don't want obese frogs!

...and yep...just dump the flies right into the viv. But...NEVER on wood! Whoooo-weeee! All the sudden one day you will have a terrible odor come at you when you open your viv! Learned that one the hard way!


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

WendySHall said:


> ...and yep...just dump the flies right into the viv. But...NEVER on wood! Whoooo-weeee! All the sudden one day you will have a terrible odor come at you when you open your viv! Learned that one the hard way!


Huh? I've never experienced that, and often do it to avoid getting supplement powder on moss or plants. Though I prefer doing it on any rock in the tank to avoid the wood absorbing the powder and eventually leaching calcium and turning white.

I can't even think of a reason why it would cause a smell unless you are dumping some of the actual media into the tank on the wood. Then ya in that case it will stink and even cause fungus or stuff to grow in the soil and even kill plants it gets on, but you shouldn't be dumping media into the tank. If its just flies, though even dusted ones this kind of experience is totally new to me. Never seen it, never heard of it.


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

No...no media...just dusted flies. This was the first month or two I started keeping darts and was dumping them on the wood daily. Perhaps it was just a build up of dust in the crevices of the wood that started rotting. But...wow! did it smell BAD! I ended up throwing away the wood. Now I now use a mini strainer to remove the extra dust and like you, dump them on a large rock that covers the drainage hole in each of my tanks.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Over-eating will cause negative effects in any living creature. (I think I read somewhere something about a frog's kidneys...not sure) But, yes, you do want to try to get as close to the right amount as you can. While a little overweight is probably better than having them underweight...you definitely don't want obese frogs!
> !


Obesity can cause an issue with fatty liver..


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Ah...the liver! That's what it was!

Thanks, Ed!


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks for the info everyone! I'll read up on dusting because I'm still confused about that whole deal.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It's like a vitamin pill for your frogs. Of course your frogs won't eat a vitamin so it is a superfine powder. You take a small container like a deli cup and sprinkle some vitamin dust in the bottom. Sprinkle some flies in and jostle them around till they are well covered in dust. Now feed them to your frogs.
This is of the utmost importance for frogs because in captivity they don't get to hunt for lots of different bugs to balance their diet.
Repashy Calcium Plus is one of the better ones.


----------



## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

It's also really expensive. I think I just spent like $130 to get started on fruit flies and springtails (starter kit w/ 2 cultures, brewers yeast, mold inhibitor, some cups/lids and vitamins).


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Really? I definitely spent under 50. Maybe I got less than you did?


----------



## deboardfam (Feb 7, 2011)

Yeah I bought the kit from joshs frogs (without flies), media, the stringy moss, 20 cups and lids for just a lil over 20. The breeder I got my frogs from gave me a starter culture.


----------



## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Could be, I ordered enough to last me a while, and supplies to make my own media from here on out. The 100 pack of cups w/ lids is what did me in, but at least I can reuse the lids. Obviously if all you want is a starter kit it won't cost as much but that hardly gives you enough goods to make even a months worth of flies.

Brewers Yeast (5 LBS/15 cups) 149 1 $ 11.99
Methyl Paraben (1 LBS/453 grams) 89 1 $ 11.99
Deluxe Melanogaster Culture Kit with Flies 1080 1 $ 49.99
32 oz Insect cup and lid (Placon Cup) - 100 Pack 1098 1 $ 33.99
Jumbo 32 oz Tropical Springtail Culture 821 1 $ 9.99
Subtotal $ 117.95
Shipping & Handling $ 15.72

Grand Total $ 133.67


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Josh's media already comes with a mold inhibiter, so the methyl paraban isn't needed. As well, the media only items come with enough bags of yeast to supply the cultures.

Just some money-saving tips, Richard.



VicSkimmr said:


> Could be, I ordered enough to last me a while, and supplies to make my own media from here on out. The 100 pack of cups w/ lids is what did me in, but at least I can reuse the lids. Obviously if all you want is a starter kit it won't cost as much but that hardly gives you enough goods to make even a months worth of flies.
> 
> Brewers Yeast (5 LBS/15 cups) 149 1 $ 11.99
> Methyl Paraben (1 LBS/453 grams) 89 1 $ 11.99
> ...


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

VicSkimmr said:


> Could be, I ordered enough to last me a while, and supplies to make my own media from here on out. The 100 pack of cups w/ lids is what did me in, but at least I can reuse the lids. Obviously if all you want is a starter kit it won't cost as much but that hardly gives you enough goods to make even a months worth of flies.
> 
> Brewers Yeast (5 LBS/15 cups) 149 1 $ 11.99
> Methyl Paraben (1 LBS/453 grams) 89 1 $ 11.99
> ...


You do realize these cups and lids can be re-used, right? There are people going on 2 years with the same sets of cups and lids. Just take a little care when you wash them.


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll be ordering all of the supplies I need to start the culture from Black Jungle, but the flies themselves will be bought at my local vivarium store. I'll get the wingless.


----------



## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Woodsman said:


> Josh's media already comes with a mold inhibiter, so the methyl paraban isn't needed. As well, the media only items come with enough bags of yeast to supply the cultures.
> 
> Just some money-saving tips, Richard.


The mold inhibitor and yeast is for when I start making my own media since the starter kit only provides you with enough for a few cultures 



Pumilo said:


> You do realize these cups and lids can be re-used, right? There are people going on 2 years with the same sets of cups and lids. Just take a little care when you wash them.


Yeah, but I'm pretty lazy  If nothing else I'll have a really good supply on hand.


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> You do realize these cups and lids can be re-used, right? There are people going on 2 years with the same sets of cups and lids. Just take a little care when you wash them.


I had been doing this for the last 6 months to try to save money since this is turning into an expensive addiction...and it's AWFUL! By the time the culture is at the end of it's cycle, they smell, are truly disgusting, and have some seriously rotten gunk stuck to them!

I almost cried monday when my 100 pack of fruit fly cups came in. Never again will I wash another! (cough...choke...gag!!!) I decided to save by making my own media...smells much better! Lol!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you are only making a few cultures, freeze the old ones and pop the frozen hockey puck out of the bottom and discard (this is compostable). I have a lot of space in my basement so I put them out of the way and a few weeks later once they are dried out, I pop the dried out leftovers out and wash the rest of the cup. 

I have cups that are going on thier fourth or fifth year.. (although since I toss the cultures down the steps into the basement, I do split the sides on occasion.. so there is some turn over). 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

That's exactly what I do Ed, dry them out and hocky puck em! Then they don't smell at all when I wash them.


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I freeze them as well, but just to kill the flies that are still alive. I didnt consider the stink factor until now.


----------



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Is a hockey puck necessary for a fruit fly culture? I searched on this board and didn't find any fruit fly culture guides. Does anyone have a link to a good guide somewhere on the internet?


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Lmao, no hockey pucks required. That's just what the frozen media in the culture looks like.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/62277-guide-making-ff-cultures.html


----------



## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Ed said:


> If you are only making a few cultures, freeze the old ones and pop the frozen hockey puck out of the bottom and discard (this is compostable).
> 
> Ed


That's a great idea, but I'm pretty sure the wife would balk at that LOL


----------

