# inoculation of mycorrhizae in vivs



## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

I did a search here for "mycorrhizae" and nothing turned up. This is surprising to me given the apparent importance of the role that these fungi play in terms of plant health.

From Wikipedia: "Mycorrhizal fungi form a mutualistic relationship with the roots of most plant species. In such a relationship, both the plants themselves and those parts of the roots that host the fungi, are said to be mycorrhizal. Relatively few of the mycorrhizal relationships between plant species and fungi have been examined to date, but *95% of the plant families investigated are predominantly mycorrhizal either in the sense that most of their species associate beneficially with mycorrhizae, or are absolutely dependent on mycorrhizae.* The Orchidaceae are notorious as a family in which the absence of the correct mycorrhizae is fatal even to germinating seeds."

Given the common practice of plant disinfection procedures before introduction of them into our vivs, I'd like to address this topic. Could we be doing more harm than good? 

I'd like to hear from all the brains on this forum chime in on this subject. I'm brand new to this hobby, I've collected all my build materials for my first viv, I've collected a bunch of plants, and I'd like to get them into quarantine (the best way possible) while I work on the build. 

I'm really foggy on what is standard practice after disinfecting bare root plants. At this stage, any mycorrhizae that was once benefitting the plants is now dead, so I'm tempted to re-pot my plants in a mycorrhizae enhanced potting soil for quarantine. Then, when it comes time for planting the viv, I'll merely shake off most of the soil, but ensure that at least a little is transferred into the brand new viv for an adequate inoculation of these beneficial fungi.

Are you all with me so far? Is this making sense? Perhaps I needn't be concerned about it. Perhaps the inoculation will happen naturally, as mold spores are everywhere, and the viv is constantly wet, but my thinking is that it must be better to give the beneficial fungi a head start, so they can take over before harmful can.

Alright, well that's my two cents. I'm going out now to pick up a bag of potting soil with mycorrhizae for my plants in quarantine. I'll be back to see if you brains think I'm making a mistake.

-Jason


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## ChrisAZ (Sep 6, 2012)

I used a product recommended by a local hydroponic grow shop near me as well as one from an online orchid growing supplier, but I don't remember the names of the products off the top of my head.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm far from an expert but I seriously doubt our normal plant processing method is going to come close to destroying all the fungi and bacteria. There's so many nooks and crannies that won't even be affected.


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

I think you are over thinking this. The majority of us have never bothered with adding fungus to our disinfected plants and our plants are growing great.
That said, I guess it wont hurt so do as you please


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## ChrisAZ (Sep 6, 2012)

I should have mentioned that I didn't notice a big difference compared to applications where it wasn't used at all. Not that that means it's not beneficial, I just know that I have lots of thriving plants that I didn't treat with it.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I really like what you're thinking here. I've been tweaking my plant preparation methods, and I'm running an initial sanitizing step followed by a grow-out period. I think taking advantage of beneficial fungi during that stage would probably give the plants an additional boost to maximize their health before running them through the final cleaning steps prior to placing them in a tank. If I remember correctly, it is these myccorhizae that work with particular soil bacteria to fix nitrogen, converting it to a form that plants can use. That presumably helps the plants get more of what they need from the soil we're using, without us having to add fertilizer, which we avoid for the sake of our frogs.


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

port_plz said:


> I'm far from an expert but I seriously doubt our normal plant processing method is going to come close to destroying all the fungi and bacteria. There's so many nooks and crannies that won't even be affected.


I've considered this as well, and I agree with you. However, by drastically killing off the vast majority, I feel there must be a substantial hindrance when it comes to the good microorganisms out-competing the bad. Bear in mind I'm talking about planting a brand new set up with a sterile substrate.

Coming from the beer brewing hobby, we take care to sanitize all of our equipment for obvious reasons (bear with me, this is relevant as an analogy). That being said, if we were to only pitch a tiny amount of yeast (causing the lag time to fermentation to be days, rather than mere hours), we run a serious risk to allowing an infection to develop. I think this is analogous to disinfecting a plant, then planting it with too little of surviving mycorrhizae to effectively take over (& out-compete the pathogens) the substrate, just as pitching too little yeast into a fermenter can result in infection.

Obviously, there's a great deal of success in the hobby without making a concern of this, then again you'll read about all kinds of mysterious plant issues, and/or harmful molds that occur to those of us who aren't so lucky.


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

Woodswalker said:


> I think taking advantage of beneficial fungi during that stage would probably give the plants an additional boost to maximize their health before running them through the final cleaning steps prior to placing them in a tank.


What are your "final cleaning steps," specifically, if you don't mind me asking? Are you disinfecting again???

I'm now considering chucking a handful of this mycorrhizae potting mix into my substrate mix when I plant, just to get it going.


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## smatthew (Nov 21, 2016)

You can get the mycorrhizae without dealing with potting soil. Most hydroponic shops sell "Great White" which is pretty good.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah, the DB search engine seems to be pretty much jacked. Has been for months.

I discuss the use of mycorrhizae innoculants in my clay substrate thread. When making clay, we pretty much kill off any life in the process. It is standard operating procedure for clay substrate. When I used to sell my clay substrate, it was an included ingredient for the end user to mix with water, and moisten their clay with it. Yes, it does help jump start your plants if you are using a sterile mix.
I agree that "Great White" is one of the best, with a long list of included species/types. It is the one I always sent out, and the one I use in my own vivs.

Is it crucial? No, it's just another helpful tool to jump start your plants. If skipped, your tank will eventually develop it's own population of mycorrhizae. Is it good to use if you've got the extra 20 or 30 bucks, or if you have a friend with some? Sure it is.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

This is an interesting topic. And I will chime in with my experience. Mycorrhizae and other soil microbes (it's fungus AND bacteria down there) break down or 'process' organic compounds in the soil to make them usable for plants. Fast-growing, nutrient hungry plants may greatly benefit from an artifical "boost" of mycorrhizae but most of our vivarium plants, especially epiphytes, would not benefit.

Also, regardless how well you sterilize your plants, you will get microbial life in your substrate and on your roots eventually unless you're growing in a completely sterile environment with purified air. There's microbes everywhere.

In the end you won't hurt your plants by adding a pure mycorrhizae or 'pro-biotic' products for your plants. But, be careful of the ones with added fertilizers. And also, be weary of any recommendations from the 'hydro store guy'. They are in business to make sales and you won't believe how many different bottles they have of the exact same product just to get you to buy more.


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

Okay, well thanks everyone.
Seems that I'm on the right track here. 
Time to get busy.

Cheers!


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Yeah, the DB search engine seems to be pretty much jacked. Has been for months.
> 
> I discuss the use of mycorrhizae innoculants in my clay substrate thread. When making clay, we pretty much kill off any life in the process. It is standard operating procedure for clay substrate. When I used to sell my clay substrate, it was an included ingredient for the end user to mix with water, and moisten their clay with it. Yes, it does help jump start your plants if you are using a sterile mix.
> I agree that "Great White" is one of the best, with a long list of included species/types. It is the one I always sent out, and the one I use in my own vivs.
> ...


As per Doug's instructions/experience I've added a mycorrhizae product when I use clay substrates (I use his recipe too), but not when using soil mixes. I figure the sterile-ish clay is going to explode with biofilm anyway, and instead of soil-beneficial microbes having to compete with non beneficials, why not give the good guys a head start?

Side note: I've had soil-less clay substrate in a large viv for about 4 years now, and from the side view, it looks almost exactly like it did after initially hydrating. I just think that's cool.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Mycorrhizae is good. It's always good. All plants benefit, including orchids. In fact, it is impossible to successfully germinate orchids without certain mycorrhizae.

Woodland Park Zoo Blog: The orchid and the fungi: true love and mycorrhizal cheating

PHYSIOLOGY AND ECOLOGY OF ORCHID MYCORRHIZAL FUNGI WITH REFERENCE TO SEEDLING NUTRITION - SMITH - 2006 - New Phytologist - Wiley Online Library

https://theses.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-05012002-091107/unrestricted/Chpt1.pdf

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110712094239.htm

I've never seen a mycorrhizae product that has fertilizer with it, but if they exist, yes, you'd want to avoid that.


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## smatthew (Nov 21, 2016)

Yeah, never seen a mycorrhizae product with fertilizer. If levels of phosphorus are normal/elevated, the plants don't need help obtaining phosphorus and don't support mycorrhizae growth.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Some products like Dr. Earth "pro-biotic" and Roots Organics Oregonism XL have a lot of organic nutrients blended into their mixes. Roots oregonism is specifically guano heavy. While I can't say they are for sure going to be toxic to frogs or burn plants just warning since Dr. Earth products are widely available in most stores.

I'd love to have the discussion of how safe specific organic and synthesized 'fertilizers' are for frogs, but that's another topic.


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## smatthew (Nov 21, 2016)

BioAg VAM is a fertilizer free mycorrhizae additive. I use it with my plants, but didn't think to incorporate it in my viv.

Orca is a liquid mycorrhizae & bacteria additive if you're into that kind of thing.


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