# Are all bicolor the same?



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Gold, yellow, orange, hi-gold, are all bicolors the same or are there different color morphs like terribilis? Im asking b/c from vendor to vendor, no two vendors seem (to me at least) to have the same looking bicolors. Some have or dont have the black on the legs and many range in all the colors listed above. Is this just individual variation or are there actually morphs?

Thanks in advance!

Chris


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

I have worked with 3 forms of bicolor in the last 20 years or so. 

One is the orange bicolor, this form is smaller than the others and has black legs. 

Second form is yellow bicolor. I got my initial group from John Uhern of Reptile Specialties back in the 90s. These frogs came in from Europe mostly as subadults in size. Most of them were yellow in color with legs ranging from black to lime green. The froglets of these and many other frogs still in the US produce the same variability in leg color and intensity of the yellow, hence the "high yellow". We put frogs that all looked the same in breeding groups and still got variability so I wouldn't put too much stock in frogs advertised as green leg, black leg and high yellow unless they are from the same importation with reliable collection data. Not too many people can trace their frogs back to a said shipment. Maybe someone like Sean Stewart who imported many frogs could do that.

The other morph is the gold morph, which I still keep and have bred for years. This frog group was imported as terribilis from Europe. When keeping this frog it is larger than the yellow and orange morphs of bicolor but smaller than mint, orange and yellow terribilis we have here in the states. Frogs were sent to Purdue for DNA sequencing and the verdict is that they are indeed bicolor. There is still some variability in the froglets produced but by and large they are uniform gold. I will bring some of these to NWFF.

Hopefully Sean, Brent Brock or others with old lines can contribute to this thread.
thanks
ERic


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

I thought that the yellow morph had darker legs and was smaller than orange? The actual yellow ones seem much more difficult to come by lately, haven't they? 

They are pretty variable and the name orange for the morph is pretty misleading as most of the descendants of the orange bicolor imports grow up to be mostly yellow. Maybe they lack something in their environment to allow them to become truly orange in captivity. I have one "yellow" at the moment, but it's only a froglet and the differences aren't as obvious yet. 

As for individual variants, each of the orange adults has enough variation to be told apart from each other. For example, one male is a frosty yellow all over and the other is 80% black, almost looking like a galactonotus.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Eric, 

There also use to be a green-leg form that was around 15 years ago or so. Got mine from Charles N. and loaned them to a friend who ended up killing them. There could still be some of those around, but I'm imagine they've been mixed with others during the years.

Best,

Chuck


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## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Mine is the green leg. Though I know Im not guaranteed 100% green legged offspring, Id rather have bicolors that dont have (much) the blackish legs or soot.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

How old is that frog Chris? It looks a bit young - and the color will probably fill in more. Not sure how the leg color will work out.

Here are some older pics of a group of bicolor that I was working with - that are now in the hands of another frogger - Eric G.










These were offspring from Mark Wilson's breeding group - and were supposedly from the mislabeled Terribilis import, so I guess these would be the Golden morph. And the colors in the pic are true - not PSd or otherwise altered.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Here is a Yellow terrib for comparison. Hard to tell them apart from here isnt it? . 

terribs are larger










My bicolor group are now in the hands of the Lord. Thanks to an impatient keeper (me) that NEEDED to add another tankmate without quarantining the new arrival....7 days later...an empty tank. Lesson learned.

S


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Not really. Look at the granulation on the back legs of the terribilis. The snout is also more rounded on the terribilis and they have more of a bulldog body pose as compared to the more rocket/leopard frog look of the bicolor. Terribilis have more of a keg shaped midsection rather than the flattened bicolor body. I had some w/c bluish bicolor that were HUGE about 10 years ago. Too bad they never bred. They were very dull and muddy. not gold, not yellow and not orange. Bigger than the yellow or orange terribilis.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Well, you are absolutely correct Aaron, I just thought the picture as posed, "from here", was an interesting match. Looked kinda like Dad and his boy or something  Side by side in the flesh, it is clear they are quite different.

Anyway, nice looking Bicolors there boys. I'd love to see a few more pics posted on this thread of other's bicolors.

Best,

S


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

rozdaboff said:


> How old is that frog Chris? It looks a bit young - and the color will probably fill in more. Not sure how the leg color will work out.
> 
> Here are some older pics of a group of bicolor that I was working with - that are now in the hands of another frogger - Eric G.
> 
> ...


Nice Bicolor! I am a little curious about the way their morphs are classified. I've got one of Mark Wilson's bicolor too, but I thought they were originally from Saurian Enterprises. Here is the one from Mark's group








On Patrick's page, it says that his bicolor were sold to him as Terribilis. Does that mean that his oranges are actually the "gold" morph?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

There was a big debate years ago when those bicolor came in as terribilis. I think I got a lot of people mad when I started saying that these were not terribilis and looked to me like bicolor. There are striking similarities esp w/ the last pic posted looking more like an intermediate between the 2.









Orange bicolor from Dave Hulmes. He is about 10 years old and his father was a 17 years lived? w/c male(which died before this male was out of the water or the parents of this guy were f1`s from a 17year lived male) which puts their import about 25-30+years ago. If I remember the story correct from Dave.


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## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

rozdaboff said:


> How old is that frog Chris? It looks a bit young - and the color will probably fill in more. Not sure how the leg color will work out.


Oz,

I dont know how old s/he is. Its a little bigger than a full grown dwarf tinc. Im hoping the legs keep that green cast. Will need to inquire on its age with person I acquired from. Seems these guys have a lot of variability.

So now begs the question. Lets say hypothetically I took some of your (old) bicolors, could I breed it to my own and no ones going to have a problem in having it done so?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I have been asking this same question about bicolor for years. I firmly believe that bicolors are the victims of invent-a-morph syndrome. For me, the only thing I will accept as evidence of distinct populations is the importation history that Eric and Chuck laid out. I've only worked with one group that I got from Eric Pflaging many years ago, and I believe are the decendents of the John Uhern imports. These animals are HIGHLY variable. They can have green, black, or mostly yellow legs all from the same clutch. Their body color can easily be manipulated with diet. I've seen pale yellow, bright yellow, and orange all on the same frog depending on what I have been feeding it.

What I would really like is more information about their wild distribution. Do bicolor have one contiguous distribution? Or are they divided into several isolated populations? And if it is the latter, do any of these populations have the same morpholigical characteristics we see in the different import groups?


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

bbrock said:


> I have been asking this same question about bicolor for years. I firmly believe that bicolors are the victims of invent-a-morph syndrome. For me, the only thing I will accept as evidence of distinct populations is the importation history that Eric and Chuck laid out. I've only worked with one group that I got from Eric Pflaging many years ago, and I believe are the decendents of the John Uhern imports. These animals are HIGHLY variable. They can have green, black, or mostly yellow legs all from the same clutch. Their body color can easily be manipulated with diet. I've seen pale yellow, bright yellow, and orange all on the same frog depending on what I have been feeding it.
> 
> What I would really like is more information about their wild distribution. Do bicolor have one contiguous distribution? Or are they divided into several isolated populations? And if it is the latter, do any of these populations have the same morpholigical characteristics we see in the different import groups?


Phyllobates bicolor are listed as near threatened due to their limited habitat (not as limited as P. Terribilis) and the decline of it's habitat. Some of the info on location say that there is a southern population of them in Quebrada Guangui, Colombia that was mistaken for terribilis. They appear to live along the San Juan River and this was apparently the area where the wild frogs were originally collected. Also, the northernmost part of their range is small and isolated from the main range by a river. This may allow for a small, localized form to exist, but I am unsure if there is any idocumentation on the subject.

Bbrock, you are right about feeding them to produce color variations as well. Out of curiousity, I seperated on of mine when feeding the other bicolor naturose and dendrocare to see if they would actually live up to being the orange they were labeled as. After 2 months, the frog not recieving naturose became more pale, frosted orange while his former tankmates appeared to be a bright golden color (the frog in the above post is one of his tankmates.) The seperated frog is also more black than yellow or orange.


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## local hero (Sep 29, 2006)

The larger frog is F1 offspring from Sean Stewarts orange line and the smaller is a gold phase from SNDF witch is the line from Europe miss identified as terriblis.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

local hero said:


> The larger frog is F1 offspring from Sean Stewarts orange line and the smaller is a gold phase from SNDF witch is the line from Europe miss identified as terriblis.


The gold morph was the one that caused all the controversy as "Gold Terribilis" a while back.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

ok, I could help you with the morphs, as I have seen bicolor in wild and know where are the morphs from. If you post a list of morphs with pictures, I can tell help maybe...

Daniel


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

ColombianFrogger said:


> ok, I could help you with the morphs, as I have seen bicolor in wild and know where are the morphs from. If you post a list of morphs with pictures, I can tell help maybe...
> 
> Daniel


Fantastic! Would you mind giving a little description of what you have seen? How many distinct populations would you say there are? Are any of these morphs sympatric?


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

sorry, I just back from field, thats why I didnt answer before. Tomorrow in the morning I will write about the bicolor morphs...

Daniel


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## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

I look forward to reading it


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## rdooley79 (Apr 24, 2007)

Daniel, THANK YOU!!!!!!

I am about to get 8 of the orange sean stewart line bicolors. I would really like to get some good info about them for my records.


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

Great post!!! I picked up some gold bicolors from Eric at NWFF. I have to say that these are great looking frogs. I am also interested in reading about the field study on these animals, anyone else with pictures, please post them up!! 

BTW-Thanks again Eric!! 

Brent


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

bicolor was one of the commonly exported frogs from Colombia, at least until CITES came into the scene. its distribucted along the San Juan river drainage, in the departments of Risaralda (where the description paper first individuals should belong), Choco, Cauca and Valle del Cauca. in the north of Choco is replaced by aurotaenia and in the south, in Cauca is replaced by terribilis. Any studies about bicolor morphs is very speculative, because the morphs are poorly known, and a shipment in those times could have mixed frogs from diferent localities. 

All we can do is to list the morphs that lives in the localities with collection activities. The frogs collected in Risaralda, the collected near Valle del Cauca and the frogs collected near the terribilis populations. Another morphs maybe get in Europe from another localities when those places were safe. In that times, europeans and americans came in their own frog safaris, discovering and taking frogs, and starting a "line" by themselves. We can make a rough aproximation to this species:

In Risaralda, a lot of bicolors were taken, mainly by indian collectors who got them from the mountains surrounding the road to Quibdó. Frogs of diferent localities were taken, but we can say that all are yellow frogs with dark legs, or with green legs. Most of the bicolor in the hobby belong to this group. I have seen diferent individuals of this localities and the dorsal color is not a clear indicative of the localities. In the same locality you can find "hi yellow", yellow and orange yellow.

Toward south, in the lower San Juan River, bicolor were taken, along with the "pangala" histrionicus. I think the "golden" bicolor belong to this populations, just because I know the bicolor from the other localities and they arent golden. you can see an example of this morph here
http://www.tropical-experience.nl/index ... &Itemid=37

A big yellow morph, that sometimes is confused with terribilis is found on Valle del Cauca. Its recognized by their bigger size and yellow or slightly dark llegs. I have not seen the populations of Cauca who are allopatric with terribilis, but have understood that they are similar to this big yellow morph.

Honestly, I havent good pictures of bicolor to illustrate it. Anyone who would like to contribute with your pictures, contact me on PM, maybe we could make a mini morph guide with a map for the comunity


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Excellent post Daniel! Thanks so much for this valuable information. If I interpret this correctly, this suggests that both the "normal" yellow and the orange morphs found in the hobby likely were collected in the same general area, Risaralda?


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## rdooley79 (Apr 24, 2007)

Daniel:
Excellent post. Looking at the pic at the top of this page, the Sean Stewart F1's, what would you say they are? We just got in 8 today and my wife is telling me they are VERY gold in color and have dark colored back legs. What is your estimate of their location? also woudl they be called Gold or orange?

Thanks!
Rhett


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Thanks for posting that, Daniel! It is very informative. Bicolor are an interesting species.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rdooley79 said:


> Daniel:
> Excellent post. Looking at the pic at the top of this page, the Sean Stewart F1's, what would you say they are? We just got in 8 today and my wife is telling me they are VERY gold in color and have dark colored back legs. What is your estimate of their location? also woudl they be called Gold or orange?
> 
> Thanks!
> Rhett


I just don't think you can say with any certainty just by looking at them. Daniel may have a different answer but this is a highly variable frog. I had a group of clutch mates that ranged from having black legs, to one that could probably pass as a "gold" morph with yellow all the way down the legs. And as I mentioned before, mine now look very orange just because they frequently get left over Naturose used for my pumilio. The male bicolor that Eric brought me to NWFF is bright yellow in comparison to my 2 remaining females. I think the only way to know is if you know something of the history of the animals. It appears that the gold morph is likely a true morph/distinct population from what Daniel has posted.

I'm still not sure about the orange vs. yellow as it sounds like these may come from the same region. But as Chuck, Eric, and others have pointed out, there have been several importations and it may be best to divide the groups based on that. My concern is that if we start calling them by whatever group they seem to look like, we will loose the orginal population characteristics.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

the "golden" at the top of the page looks like a bicolor from the southern populations in the choco. ( As Brent say, the populations from Risaralda includes yellow and golden frogs with darker legs.

Daniel


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

I don't use any color enhancers with my adults so the yellow bicolor I sent to Brent is unaltered. When my yellows bred they produced mostly yellow offspring but there is always a few that come out various shades of orange.

When I was working with terribilis in FL we had both yellow and orange groups from differant importations, every once in awhile the groups would produce an offspring that looked like the other, such as a lemon yellow frog from the solid orange parents and vice versa. We raised clutches together and it would be pretty obvious during early growth period of froglets whose colors were differant from its siblings.

I think it best to keep the names and importations straight as Brent has suggested, if we start lumping frogs together based on the phenotype (physical characters) only we may as well throw out all the lines because they will be mixed up within a few years. Total meltdown of all the work TWI is trying to establish in the hobby.

With nothing coming in from Columbia it's more imperative to keep the lines in the US going true. 

Thanks 
ERic


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

right now there is a guy breeding bicolor and other species (no histrionicus!) with locality data and he has CITES and the export permits. However, he tried to export to Europe and the prices are ridiculous, at most 10 Euros per frog... so he is considering to close the breeding facilities...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That's odd that they wouldn't get good prices, yet smuggled animals are almost 10 times that? Has he tried a US importer? It seems stupid to me that there would be someone who can legally produce locality animals in Colombia and not be able to work something out like with exportations from Peru and Panama...


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

ColombianFrogger said:


> right now there is a guy breeding bicolor and other species (no histrionicus!) with locality data and he has CITES and the export permits. However, he tried to export to Europe and the prices are ridiculous, at most 10 Euros per frog... so he is considering to close the breeding facilities...


That's ridiculous! Why do they expect to pay so little when he his putting so much effort into their breeding? What will happen to his hard work?


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