# Tank size for pumilio.



## snakeguy99 (Mar 12, 2012)

Can I keep a pair of Man Creek Pumilio in a Exo Terra 12x12x18? If not can I keep one in that size? 
Thanks


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

I don't know, as I don't have a lot of experience with pums but are these your first dart frogs? Pumilio are advanced in care and need a high level of skills in order to thrive. You should also know that pumilio are very expensive. A pair of pumilio (breeding pair and not neccessirily man creek) can easily cost $350-$900. Individual frogs can cost you in the ball park of (unsexed froglets to proven breeders of any color morph) $60-$400+.


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## snakeguy99 (Mar 12, 2012)

Yes these are my first frogs and yes I know that there are hard to take care of but i like to be ambitious. Also i was just in Costa Rica and I saw blue jeans that i thought were fascinating thats what inspired me to want pums as my first frog


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

risky, but it has been done before. It will be rather difficult.

Good luck.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

They really aren't difficult to keep, just breed. And even that isn't a big deal. Don't cut corners and you should be fine.

They have been kept in tanks that size, but for someone who doesn't know what behavioral signs to look for if there is a problem, I would go bigger. Go for something around 20 gallons.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

thedude said:


> They really aren't difficult to keep, just breed. And even that isn't a big deal. Don't cut corners and you should be fine.
> 
> They have been kept in tanks that size, but for someone who doesn't know what behavioral signs to look for if there is a problem, I would go bigger. Go for something around 20 gallons.


Like I said, I'm not very experienced with pums at all.


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## snakeguy99 (Mar 12, 2012)

The only problem is i already have the tank and I paid a good amount of money for it. Is their a way to make them happy in there or should I invest in a whole new tank?


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## Zoomie (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't keep Pums but read about them regularly. If you are hades bent on starting with Pums (not recommended by most), you need to read everything you can get your hands on. You are going against the grain on accepted beginner species and want to do everything in your power to ensure succesful keeping.

I would take TheDude's advice. He may have bred a frog..........once or twice.  While there are exceptions, more space is almost always better. Cutting corners without extensive experience is a recipe for potential disaster. 

The other thing to consider is that owners of rarer or more difficult to keep species with tads will likely want to know where they are going and how you intend to house. They busted their cans to breed these species and want to be comfortable about where their four legged children will be living. A picture of a well designed tank will go a long way with sellers to alay any concern. 

Also, if you can find a mentor locally or regionally, they can really put you on the fast track of the learning curve.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

You can keep your 12x12x18 for your second frog. Most people seem to recommend much larger tanks than what you have. Pumillo may not be the best choice if you are worried about the money you spent on the tank because there is always the risk the actual frog may not make it (which is going to be much more than the cost of the tank). I have been looking at some Blue Jeans and the recommended tank size was 24x18x24. They have been said to use the entire space. My opinion on tank size is always to go bigger than the "smallest possible". You will have much better success if you can start your questions with "is this too big" vs. "is this big enough" ha-ha  Welcome to the board!


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

snakeguy99 said:


> Yes these are my first frogs and yes I know that there are hard to take care of but i like to be ambitious. Also i was just in Costa Rica and I saw blue jeans that i thought were fascinating thats what inspired me to want pums as my first frog


Being ambitious might be good for you, but not for the frogs.

That being said, mancreeks are a good starter pumilio. You should probably start with a near adult pair. Frogs of the same sex will often fight or intimidate each other to the death and since you don't have the experience to see the signs of intimidation, a sexed pair would be best. Juvenile frogs would be less expensive, but young pumilio are way more fragile than adults.
I have my pair in a 10 gal. vertical tank (which is about the same size as yours). Mine produce 1-3 babies every few months, so I don't think they are too stressed by the small tank. The rest of my pumilio are kept in 18x18x 24" tanks. Do some reading so you can make sure you meet their needs. At the least you should have 2-3 water holding bromiliads and lots of leaf litter on the ground.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

I just got my first pumilio a few months back after having other more beginner species of frogs. The experience and plentiful time for research prepared me for the more difficult aspects of the pumilio. I would recommend getting something else before heading down this road, like phender said your ambition may not be so great for the frogs. I know it sucks to hear people advising you away from your intended route but it's honestly for the best of you and the frogs. Even a few months of taking care of frogs and researching and learning can better prepare you for some beautiful locale of pumilio! Whatever you decide to do just use the advice of the people on this board to learn and help you, because they know what they are talking about.


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## Bonobo (Jun 7, 2009)

I'm not sure what everybody thinks is the more "difficult" part of keeping pumilio? Basic care is pretty much the same. I think the only "harder" part of keeping pumilio is when it comes to breeding.. and even that is not a huge deal, you just have to learn to culture some smaller species of bugs. I say go for it man.. pumilio are by far my favorite frogs, and a lot fun to watch.

Start with adults though, it's going to cost you a bit more.. but definitely worth it. Your tank is a bit too small I think, go bigger when you can.. just make sure to use as much vertical and horizontal space as possible.. they will use it all. Also mount a few bromeliads, pumilio's love them, and i.m.o. you shouldn't keep them without a brom or two.. and uhh leaf litter, lots and lots of leaf litter.

Good luck


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> They really aren't difficult to keep, just breed. And even that isn't a big deal. Don't cut corners and you should be fine.
> 
> They have been kept in tanks that size, but for someone who doesn't know what behavioral signs to look for if there is a problem, I would go bigger. Go for something around 20 gallons.


Another corner you should not cut is getting captive bred animals. If you get the cheap wild caught pumilio, your probably going to have issues and lose one or more frogs (plus they often are not sexed correctly which results in male heavy shipments). There are plenty of people with a lot of experience who lose imported frogs... or end up spending extra attempting to get them stabilized. This will mean that you going to spend probably at least $30 extra for each frog and possibly more but you will save a lot more money in the long run... 

Some comments

Ed


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

I'll chime in a little: 

I used to keep my basti's and rio guramo's in a 12x12x12. They produced pretty good in their tanks but after a year and half, the females were actually stressing out the males( males ended up real skinny and had to separate them. This being said I moved them to 18x18x24. 

Conclusion: they ended up a lot healthier, seemed a lot happier with more space, and also produced larger froglets. Not sure if it was the tank or not but they seem to enjoy and use the space of a bigger tank. 

Hope all goes well.....


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

jeeperrs said:


> You will have much better success if you can start your questions with "is this too big" vs. "is this big enough" ha-ha


dude, you have a point, and a very sharp point I might add. that should be your sigtinture! You'd better watch out, I might steal that from you!  I would do that. get a tank that makes you wonder is the tank is too big!


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm about a year into the hobby and I got a Basti a few weeks to a month ago. Its housed in a 20h. I may age another one or 2 the most. I have Lecu's, a Powder Blue, Patricia's, Varadero's, and Varabilis. I dont know if I should still be considered a beginner or not. I want my entire collection to consist of pums and thumbs. I don't deal with the exo's or Z.M. tanks, so I can just say that I will only keep 20H & 29's and if I do verts they will be 15G and betters. All with the exception of my powder blue were brought as froglets....


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

There's a lot of talk about not cutting corners in this thread, but it sounds a lot to me like what is trying to happen.

I've dealt with a couple pumilio... they're cool frogs and the use a lot of space. I refuse to keep them in anything smaller than 40 gallons. They use it all.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

El Dorados are one of the largest, hardiest, and outgoing pumilio. I'd consider them better starter pumilio over man creeks


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## snakeguy99 (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks for all the help, guys. I have decided to go with a 35 gallon hex tank. I am pretty sure they will be happy in that.


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## mcaiger53 (Jan 3, 2011)

One thing I haven't seen anybody mention is that a tank with a larger footprint has more room for a good substrate and leaf litter, which will support more microfauna. The more microfauna and leaf litter (hiding spots) you have, the better chance the froglets (hopefully) will have. 
Mike


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Sprintails,springtails,and more springtails.Make sure you have a ready supply of springtails and melo fruitflies.You may want to make sure you have culturing these smaller feeders down before working with pumilios.Without small feeders you will lose them.I personally wouldn't sell any of my pumilio to someone with no frog experience.Just my opinion!Good luck to you and the frogs you choose.

Lou


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

oddlot said:


> Sprintails,springtails,and more springtails.Make sure you have a ready supply of springtails and melo fruitflies.You may want to make sure you have culturing these smaller feeders down before working with pumilios.Without small feeders you will lose them.I personally wouldn't sell any of my pumilio to someone with no frog experience.Just my opinion!Good luck to you and the frogs you choose.
> 
> Lou


Yeah for sure!! To be honest I dont even worry about having floor space for springtail population. I mean I'm sure I have some but im not worried about the population in the tank. I make sure I have tubs or tanks set up for the froglets to go right in with plenty of springtails ready to be eaten. This way I pull the froglets as soon as I see them and not worry if I actually have enough in the tank. Just a thought.... .


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

Pumilio is my very first dart frog. I keep a pair in a 60 gals vivarium (my very first vivarium also). They seem to thrill in even less humidity than other dart frog or maybe mine are just hardy ones. They eat like pigs too


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