# NEED ADVICE! Dart frog going blind!



## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I have two tincs in a 36" square vivarium, both males, and I'm pretty sure one is going blind, if not blind already. 
He's always acting like he doesn't know where things are, and it takes him two or three tries to catch a fly, if he catches it at all. I think he might somehow be finding them by sound, because a lot of times he'll try to zap my fingers but seem to not know how far away they are. 
I'm using ReptiVite suppliment, but I'd think that if if was the issue, the other frog would have this problem, and he doesn't. 
I'm pretty sure the poor little guy is totally blind or very close to it... I put him in a 3" square container with a lot of flies, and he still only caught a few. I think he's finding them by sound... When one would fall off the wall and start flailing around, he'd always go after that one, and he couldn't seem to find them if they sat still.
Thing is... He didn't know he was in a container until he bumped into the walls. Then he kinda freaked out... I put him back in the viv with the container upside-down over him, and he bumped into it, then stayed perfectly still... He didn't move when I took the container away. He didn't know it was gone until the other frog stepped on his foot. 
He's getting really skinny, even his legs are getting skinny, and I'm seriously worried about the little guy! If he doesn't get a decent meal in a couple of days, I think he's going to starve. Help!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Hi. Can you be more specific about the supplements he's getting? He needs calcium and vitamins. Can you post a link to the exact supplement so we can look at the ingredients?


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

I honestly don't have any advice for you, except to keep it isolated and feed extra. It probably got blind because of a physical injury, not a result of poor supplementation. Good luck, and keep us posted on his health!


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Zoo Med Reptivite, with Vitamin D3, 16-Ounce - Free Shipping
It's this stuff, and I'd think that if the supplement was the problem my other frog would be sick.

@volcano23000, I don't think it's an injury. Both of his eyes look perfectly normal, and there's nothing in the vivarium that could injure them, nothing sharp or anything like that. And I don't think feeding him extra will help much, the problem is that he can barely catch the food.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Is that the only supplement he's getting?
It sounds a bit like short tongue syndrome since he's missing flies. Could be a lack of Vit. A. I would try supplementing him with Repashy Vit A Plus and with their Calcium Plus. 
How old is that supplement? Older than 6 months? 

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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Someone on another thread suggested that it's STS, and that really seems to fit. Although, I'm not sure why the other one doesn't have it...
I'm definitely getting some Vitamin A supplement, and I probably do need to replace what I already have... Thanks for the advice!


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

It does sound and dont qote me a suplement issue. I heard of an issue call I might say it wrong but "short tongue". I have heard it causes them to have what would look like bad aim. But I'll let someone with more knowledge comment. 

Looks like rusty agrees


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm sorry I don't have any answers for you...I just want to let you know that you have my sympathy. It must be a terribly sad situation to watch. I am wishing for the best for your frog.

What I don't understand (and this is not meant as snarky, but a serious question) is why everyone is saying STS? What the OP described does sound as if the frog is losing its sight. I don't know if this could be caused by improper supplementation or if it could be a defect in the frog itself. (?)

Perhaps a question suitable for Ed???


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm not certain of this, Wendy, but I think Vit A deficiency can effect vision. At any rate, frogs flailing around at flies, seeming to not be aiming correctly, is often a sign of STS. I think STS is a misnomer for what is really going on. 

At any rate, it's a good place to start.

Then again, I aint no scientist! 

eta: Sending email to Ed. It's kind of like sending up the Bat Signal


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

When in doubt, ask Ed! The unofficial motto of Dendroboard.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Ah...I see, Kris...now I see the link! I knew that with STS frogs have difficulty catching the flies and this can perhaps be caused by Vit A deficiency...but I didn't realize that the Vit A could affect vision.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> Ah...I see, Kris...now I see the link! I knew that with STS frogs have difficulty catching the flies and this can perhaps be caused by Vit A deficiency...but I didn't realize that the Vit A could affect vision.


Well I could be making it up! We should wait for Ed. 

Look, all I know is that when Maryanne ate all those radioactive carrots on Gilligan's Island, she could suddenly see forever


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vitamin A is important for the eyes as well as a number of other processes in the body... In the case of frogs and toads, insufficient vitamin A reduces the immune system and causes a change in the mucous cells of the body... The cells change and stop secreting the mucous that enables the frogs to capture prey species... It also impacts how well the frogs can absorb nutrients so it can be a vicious cycle. 

The supplement he is using is supposed to have preformed vitamin A in it (Retinyl acetate) so one of the questions should be how old the supplements are and where they are stored. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Rofl! Kris, you crack me up all the time!

I know how the "I could be making it all up" goes... my mind convinces me all kinds of things have happened (or didn't) since I hit the big 4-0! (At least that's what the kids tell me!)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Rofl! Kris, you crack me up all the time!
> 
> I know how the "I could be making it all up" goes... my mind convinces me all kinds of things have happened (or didn't) since I hit the big 4-0! (At least that's what the kids tell me!)


PFFT...you youngsters.... 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Ha! I've seen your picture, Ed! You could be my little brother! What are you...like 30ish?

If it is the supplements, would this be something that could possibly be corrected by replacing them and storing them properly?


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

I know vitamin A deficiency causes blindness in turtles and humans... 
I went and got a new supplement, one that has a lot of vitamin A, and I got some Hydei flies, which are of course bigger, so the frog has to eat fewer to get a meal. He's still having trouble catching them, though... He hits them, but his tounge doesn't seem to stick. Is there any way I could help him somehow? Right now I have him and some flies in a small container so they can't get away before he eats them.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

If he is doing better at obtaining more flies in the smaller container, I would say keep him in there for now.

If it is a supplement issue that's able to be corrected, hopefully you'll see some improvement after a while. In the meantime...
---Replace supplements every 6 months
---Store supplements in the refrigerator (not the freezer).
---Take only a small amount (about 2 weeks worth) out of the refrigerator for regular use. You should preferably keep this away from heat and in a small, airtight, opaque container such as a cleaned out pill bottle.
---Dust your feeders at every feeding.

Btw...what is the new supplement you obtained?


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

He does fine at catching the flies in there, but only between bouts of hopping around, trying to get out.
Thanks for the tips... The suppliment is Repashy Supervite, which was recommended to me by a reptile owner as a good source of vitamin A. I had to visit two pet stores, call a third, call a pharmacy, and visit Whole Foods before I found it, though. The pharmacy and Whole Foods had vitamin A suppliments, but only gel and liquid, and I was worried that I'd overdose the froggies.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

That's a step in the right direction, but now you don't have a proper calcium. Repashy Supervit is designed to be used hand in hand with Repashy's Supercal, in either the LoD, MeD, or Hyd strenth. Your choice there depends on if you use UVB, and if so, how much.
A much simpler choice is the supplement that Repashy has designed as an all-in-one supplement for our dart frogs. That would be Repashy CALCIUM PLUS. 
You should also be aware many brands of supplements do not have form of vitamin A that our frogs can properly utilize. The Repashy line DOES have the proper form.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Alright, I'll make sure to get a calcium supplement... Our water is pretty hard, does that make a difference?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Betta132 said:


> Alright, I'll make sure to get a calcium supplement... Our water is pretty hard, does that make a difference?


Are you implying that your frogs would be absorbing calcium from your hard water?


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

Let me help you out before some other people shoot you down. ( most wont but some just might). I am pretty sure frogs and most if not all herps need filtered water such as reverse osmosis as the minerals in tap water can be harmful over periods of time. You should start misting with filtered water and buy the calcium supplement too. 

Please somebody correct me if this information is wrong. I am pretty new myself and have A LOT more to learn.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Ha! I've seen your picture, Ed! You could be my little brother! What are you...like 30ish?


Depending on where you put 30ish... I'm between 10 and 17 years older than that



WendySHall said:


> If it is the supplements, would this be something that could possibly be corrected by replacing them and storing them properly?


Yes as long as the frog can feed on the dusted insects. If it has progressed beyond that point, then the frog has to be tube fed. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> That's a step in the right direction, but now you don't have a proper calcium. Repashy Supervit is designed to be used hand in hand with Repashy's Supercal, in either the LoD, MeD, or Hyd strenth. .


It can be used as a stand alone but is not ideal. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Are you implying that your frogs would be absorbing calcium from your hard water?


Frogs can uptake calcium through their skin which is why baths in calcium glubionate/gluconate solutions works to help combat some of the forms of calcium insufficiency... The problem is whether the frog has enough D3 to enable proper metabolization of the calcium. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

volcano23000 said:


> Let me help you out before some other people shoot you down. ( most wont but some just might). I am pretty sure frogs and most if not all herps need filtered water such as reverse osmosis as the minerals in tap water can be harmful over periods of time. .


No, as long as the water is of good quality it is fine to use... The problems with hard waters are generally more aesthetic than anything else... as the hard water, creates salt deposits on the glass, leaves and if the tank isn't a flow through system increased salts content in the substrate as water is wicked up and evaporated (this is the white crust often seen in potted plants). 

Never use water that has been "softened" and in general treat the water for chlorine/chloramine if you are using municipal water. 

some comments 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Ed said:


> Depending on where you put 30ish... I'm between 10 and 17 years older than that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well...if you notice, I didn't say how long ago I hit 40...so there's still a very good chance that I'm still older! (Maybe I shouldn't brag about that! Ha! Ha!)

Anyhow...OP...from what Ed wrote above, I would definitely keep the frog in the smaller container until he (hopefully) shows some improvement. The more dusted flies he can find, the better his chances of improving. Make sure and put something in there that he can hopefully find to hide in...may lessen his stress a little.


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