# sls poll



## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

hi i have seen coments on spindley leg syndrome frogs getting better thought id shoot this out there 
craig


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## lamaster (Mar 22, 2008)

4 I put down sls frogs at morphing. I don't like to watch the slow eventual death. They can't compete with other healthy froglets.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

They might do fine for a short while, but eventually they will deterrioate slowly, i don't know of anyone raising a froglet to full adult with SLS.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have reared and kept minimally affected frogs through adulthood. They don't get better. If the sls is not serious then the frogs can navigate and feed. 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Ed, have you gotten any of the adults with SLS to breed? if so have you seen any genetic traits with it?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

We did not attempt to breed them as I was producing a lot of tinctorius at that time (they were eventually sent to another Zoo overseas). There is probably a genetic component to some cases of SLS but this incidence is probably being totally obscured by the huge amount of cases that are caused by nutrition and the lesser amount due to enviromental issues. 
The ability of the frog to survive depends totally on the degree the frog is affected. If it is a very mild case then the front legs may be thin or otherwise deformed but still allow the frog to function normally and these frogs can survive and do well. The vast majority of cases are not going to survive but as it is a spectrum disorder there are also minimally affected cases. 
With respect to the breeding, even if the case is caused by a genetic component, if the frog is not well represented in the gene pool, then it may need to be allowed to breed to allow for enough genes to be available to maximize diversity. 


Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

one thing i have noticed with SLS in my collection is that i have not had a case of SLS since i stopped doing water changes, when i did water changes i got bigger tads, but some morphed with SLS.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> one thing i have noticed with SLS in my collection is that i have not had a case of SLS since i stopped doing water changes, when i did water changes i got bigger tads, but some morphed with SLS.


We have found age of parents to be a high contributing factor, so I caution against saying doing X stopped or slowed SLS occurrence when you can't factor out age of parents.

As I understand it, SLS is point on a continuum. So, there is no blood test, no set criteria that separates frogs that do and not have SLS. The key for us as Hobbyists and Breeders is to set benchmarks that weed out un-fit frogs from getting out.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

yeah i know is not something that stopped it is just something i noticed in my collection i am not speaking for anyone else or the general public.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The Baltimore Zoo did a study (unpublished unfortunately) and found that irrespective of other factors, insufficient nutrition in the parents was the primary cause of SLS in frogs. This was before Philly had an incidence where we went from 0% SLS to 100% SLS in multiple genera due to the addition of carbon filtering system to the tap water. 
Other zoos have linked SLS to phosphate in the water and released from carbon in water filtering systems.. 

With the age of the frogs, I would guess that there was insufficient storage or mobilization of one or more nutrients. 

I covered a lot of this in the SLS review in one of the Leaf Litters and at a couple of IADs. 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Ed, do you use aged tap water or RO water for your frogs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If I am topping up evaporated water I use RO. I also use RO for the humidifiers and misting systems. If I performing water changes then depending on the species I am using either aged tap water or reconstituted RO water. 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

do you have a carbon filter in your RO system? what do you use to reconstitute your RO water?


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

I've been lucky with my thumbnail frogs so far and have not had any SLS froglets from them yet . So I can't comment on if sls could be water quality or food related , though I don't do full water changes , just top off the water (w/tad tea and RO) and suction out waste and uneaten food every now and then . 
But I have had a few SLS froglets with my pumilio , most recently my cristobals . I found a sls froglet last week and was wondering that since they laid 3 seporate clutches of eggs within a week and a half and transported almost 20 tads , and having her trying to feed too many froglets at once could be a big factor . And I also I noticed this one morphed out a couple weeks sooner than I expected them to also . Even that they are being fed by the mother she might be missing feeding some froglets on occation causing a lack of growth . It was smaller in size than the last healthy ones too , tiny front legs but good back legs though and could jump very good .


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> do you have a carbon filter in your RO system? what do you use to reconstitute your RO water?


Yep, upstream from the RO filter and the water produced has a zero level of phosphate. 

At this time I am trying out RO Right. Kyle and a few others appear to have had good luck with it. 

Ed


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

Ed,
I did a small trial (n=10 per tx) with M.ebenaui tads using RO with RO right at the "Soft water" recipe versus 50/50 RO/my tap water (unfiltered). I plan to publish in Leaf Litter if I can get my duff in gear. But I got MUCH faster growth in the 50/50 group and no SLS noted on either side.

Do you have some refs on the phosphate/spindly thing or other water quality growth/SLS studies?
Thanks!
Rich


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Rich,

The link between the phosphate and SLS came out through the ATAGs last year and was further reported in some more northerly institutions as a problem with baxteri and Puerto Rican Crested Toads... I don't think it has been published anywhere as of yet (unless it is in one of the veterinary journals) as I haven't seen it. The Zoos were places where there was a fair bit of phospate already in the tap/well water and when they prefiltered it with carbon, the carbon leached sufficient phosphate to cause the problem. 

In addition, we had a problem at Philly with carbon filtered tap water and went from 0% SLS to 100% in multiple genera.... 

There are a number of anecdotal reports of SLS and tap or well water in the various archives... and you can always reference the SLS article in leaflitter..... 

Ed


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