# pinheads for darts?



## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

Are there any dart frogs that can live off of pin head crickets? or small crickets?? For a Novice that is..
I know some of the larger dart frogs can but they are more for the Intermediate or Advanced.. 

or just another substitute other than FF's?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tincts and auratus are beginner frogs and do just fine on a suitably sized cricket diet.. I've kept them on a cricket only diet for more than a decade at work. Pretty much as long as you get the right size and supplement correctly, crickets are a fine but expensive food item for the average hobbyist. 

Ed


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

I buy a box of crickets every few weeks and they seem to last good while for my tree frogs. I house the crickets in a tank with egg crate in another room (they stink) and pay around $20.99 for a box 1000. and these are 1/2 crickets. 

but when you can buy a FF kit for $45 and you can make 30+ cultures I can see how there is a huge price difference.. :?


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

You pay 20.99 for 1000 crickets. The last show I bought crickets at I got them for $10.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Culturing fruit flies is by far the most cost effective way of feeding darts, and far less intensive to culture compared to crickets. As the crickets grow, they'll become too large to feed out to your frogs.

Are you intimidated by culturing FFs? It's really quite easy once you understand the basics.


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

porkchop48 said:


> You pay 20.99 for 1000 crickets. The last show I bought crickets at I got them for $10.


You gotta be kidding me!!! and I thought I was getting a deal!! :evil:


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> Culturing fruit flies is by far the most cost effective way of feeding darts, and far less intensive to culture compared to crickets. As the crickets grow, they'll become too large to feed out to your frogs.
> 
> Are you intimidated by culturing FFs? It's really quite easy once you understand the basics.


Yes, you can say that..  I have a few good places online that I was told to read up about them. Which i am going to.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

If you know any local froggers, pump them for all the information that you can  

This thread will give you a nice visual guide for culturing FF. I suggest buying your media- it just makes it nice and easy to work with.


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> If you know any local froggers, pump them for all the information that you can
> 
> This thread will give you a nice visual guide for culturing FF. I suggest buying your media- it just makes it nice and easy to work with.


Thank you!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's kinda funny... people in the reptile hobby tend to come here and be afraid of culturing FFs, but people that started in this hobby tend to be afraid of having to breed crickets :lol: 

If you're paying for pinheads... you're getting ripped off. Cheaper to breed your own from a few adults. True pinheads just don't ship well. That's why I posted this articleand keep it around.


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

Thank you kero!! I will try this!! Seems so easy and less $$


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

how often do you clean your cricket tank. try cleaning twice a week and also it will give you a chance on seeing how many live crickets you have left. 
my method for pins is get a couple adults with some peat or vermiculite. put the stuff in a container like a deli cup about 2-3 inches high with holes, the type that you might get when you buy frogs at a show. put the "soil" in it wet it down. put about 3-4 adults and wait about a couple of days and then just put the closed lid container on top of your light source. keep it moisr and in about 2 weeks you should have pinheads. as they hatch they just crawl out the holes and go to a food source. that is my method.


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## joeyo90 (Nov 5, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> It's kinda funny... people in the reptile hobby tend to come here and be afraid of culturing FFs, but people that started in this hobby tend to be afraid of having to breed crickets :lol:


i know what you mean  i started in this hobby and have have been a little afraid to breed crickets


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I like the foam listed in the article I posted because it keeps you from having to worry about fungus issues. If the vermiculate/soil way seems to just rot your eggs, the foam is a handy way to get around a lot of those issues. It holds only so much moisture so it's hard to overdo wetness, and in a closed container it will hold the moisture enough that it won't dry out.


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

Can i find the disposable salad containers at the grocery store? 

and when I put the holes in the container tops will the pinheads get out?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You can use any toss away container like gladware/ziploc/local grocery store brand. I've avoided using the gladware interlocking lids because the lids are a pain to open with the interlocking part. The only good thing I've found them for is cutting off the interlocking part with an exacto knife and hot gluing mesh to it... handy for lots of bugs but too much ventilation in the lid for incubating the eggs.

A couple of pin holes in the lit won't let them out. They can't climb smooth plastic and aren't at their most agile when they first hatch so a couple of small holes are going to be really hard for them to manage to get out of.


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

Thank you Kerokero.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

i have yet tried to do it with the foam. i just used the "soil" because it was easier for me.
the container size would be like a margarine size container or something around that size. after a few days i would put the container in a critter keeper type container or something like that.just so the thing fits inside the other with some sort of room. 
then maybe some carrots or a piece of potato. or even a piece of cotton weted down. not just plain water or they will drown even in a drop of water.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

KeroKero said:


> If you're paying for pinheads... you're getting ripped off. Cheaper to breed your own from a few adults. True pinheads just don't ship well. That's why I posted this articleand keep it around.


Corey,

A few questions on your "Easy pinhead culture". Why specifically the AQUAFOAM brand of floral foam? My wife picked me up a different brand at a local craft store. I did notice on the label it says floral preservatives added. Is the AQUAFOAM brand preservative free?

What do you gut load the pinhead crickets with when they first start hatching out? How soon do you start feeding them out to the frogs?

THANKS.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The Aquafoam brand was listed because it is the soft sponge-like foam, rather than the hard foam that you can carve into blocks. By listing a brand, it's easier to make sure you get the right stuff. I would NOT use anything with added chemicals - especially preservatives - in it, and as I know it from the person who originally posted the article on the forums, it doesn't have the additives (check to make sure tho!). I'm sure there are similar brands out there, but I haven't gotten to explore that yet... the only part of that article I wrote was the Editor's Note.

As for the gut loading... it really depends on what you mean by that. Typically the calcium rich gutload is a hard grain type deal that the pinheads are not strong enough to eat yet (they need soft food like veggies). I typically just feed them sweet potatoes and dark leafy romain lettuce and dust them, and don't bother with gut load diets (the calcium rich ones kill them quickly anyways if they can eat them). I feed them out anywhere from after they hatch on depending on what size I need them to be (bigger means older). I usually try and get a meal in them tho, let them much on some sweet potato, then feed them out.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

GREAT. Thanks Corey.


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## bob21115 (Feb 23, 2008)

KeroKero said:


> The Aquafoam brand was listed because it is the soft sponge-like foam, rather than the hard foam that you can carve into blocks. By listing a brand, it's easier to make sure you get the right stuff. I would NOT use anything with added chemicals - especially preservatives - in it, and as I know it from the person who originally posted the article on the forums, it doesn't have the additives (check to make sure tho!). I'm sure there are similar brands out there, but I haven't gotten to explore that yet... the only part of that article I wrote was the Editor's Note.


I went to a floral shop yesterday and they had AQUAfoam and a brand called Oasis. They are identical except for the logo carved into it. I was told by the clerk they both had plant food in the blocks.

I just emailed the manufacture of AQUAFOAM.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If you use coco peat and 16 oz insect cups and lids you can dump the coco peat afterwards as compost and have a somewhat humidity controlled and insect proof env to hatch them, you can see the eggs thru the sides and tell if their too tightly packed or too moist and fungus and start to go bad and close or open holes w/ tape for humidity control. When ready to hatch you just dump the cake of coco peat into a bucket or other unclimbable holding container and then moisten the coco cakes for moisture for the delicate pinheadds and start them on foods they wont drown on. leafy greens and fish food works well but the fish food makes them stink. powdered dog food may be better for smell. You should also try not to throw the cups away but reuse them. If you use coco peat the cups are very easily cleaned, much moreso than ff cultures. You can feed them table scraps and get all that good stuff directly into your frogs too. pineapple, cucumber and carrot scrapings orange pieces and hi qual dogfood are all good feeds as are leafy greens and other fruits are good after about 1 week. Then you have a feeding system that creates no waste and composts you table scraps.


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## bob21115 (Feb 23, 2008)

This is the reply I got.

Mr. Jones –

No. It is a sterile media.



Thank you for contacting Syndicate Sales. Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you need any further assistance.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Sounds like clerk wasn't correct... that brand was specifically recomended since it didn't have chemicals on it so I would have been suprised if it did :shock: Usually with something like that as well (plant food) they'd say it on the package to try and get people to buy it for that reason...

There are many medias to use... I just liked the idea of the foam media since it's harder to get wrong than the various other substrates. I've had luck with vermiculite, coco peat, dirt from outside, mizes of the above... but if you aren't good at keeping the substrate at that right level to be moist but not soggy and not fungus over the eggs, the foam is easy to do. I do prefer a substrate I can just toss outside, but the foam gives you more wiggle room... good to use while you experiment with other substrates so if they fail for whatever and you're depending on pinheads then it's not as much of an issue.

I don't recomend dog food for the first two weeks or so... definately not in kibble form especially since they are not strong enough to eat it at that point. It's great for adults tho. Veggies are a great staple, fruit is nice too but keep an eye on it as they go bad fast. Fish flakes as well as the spirulina/chlorella powders definately increase both smell and allergy issues. Roaches can be fed the same way :twisted:


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## bob21115 (Feb 23, 2008)

Here's the boxes I setup today. I think I need to add something to the bottom. the crickets seem to slip on the bottom.










I plan on adding the aquafoam into these containers when they are full of eggs.









Will I see the eggs in the Aquafoam?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Instead of putting something on the bottom, I'd just be more strategic on where you put the cardboard. I use peices of the egg crate to act as walkways to get to the various food/water/egg spots. I just make sure they aren't in direct contact with something wet, like the edge of a bowl or something. The crating also allows for more crickets if you stack them, and stacking vertically allows for sheds and most of the droppings to fall to the floor of the tank keeping them fresher longer.

Good practice to use the gel water pillows! The gel alone can clinge to crickets and cause death if ingested dry. The pillows allow you to use the gel with no worries on that... it's what I use. The egg containers likely have too much airflow outside of an incubator so I'd watch out for that.

Not sure about if you'll see the eggs or not unless they lay eggs near the surface or sides (which you hopefully don't want them to do!). I generally get a batch of winged adults... feed them up and hold them for a few days, watch for the females getting huge with eggs, then introduce the egg laying media. Becareful tho, as they may also try and lay in the cubes and the water pillows (which is why I offer them only veggies to try and avoid that during this period). They will go nuts laying in the media, and you'll notice the females dropping weight after they lay. I leave the media in there for about 2 days, pull, and incubate.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

I am not so biased that I wouldn't recomend pinheads for dart frogs. Are fruit flies cheaper, easier, more productive and less maintenance? 
YES.
Do I use pinhead crickets anyways?
YES.
I think that can all agree on the fact that variety is good for your dart frog. You can also gut load crickets on different kinds of things (fish food flake, carrots, potato, etc).
Probably about twice a month I feed my frogs pinhead or 1 week old crickets. I am have cultured my own, but there are just so many cricket companies out there who do it so much better, and the money spent on time I don't have to do them is money well spent IMO. I use Sunshine Meal Worms out of Oregon. They are just top notch and super pro.


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

Kerokero- 

I tried to bred my own pinheads and I do not know what happened. I bought the aquafoam, placed it in the tank with the adult crickets for a week, took them out and placed in a plastic container. After a few days i started to notice white fuzz growing on the foam..and no hatching.. can you please tell me what I did wrong? 

Thank you in advance. :wink:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

No hatching... after how long? At what temps? Did you ever see a female laying eggs? Even at close to 90 it takes two weeks for them to hatch... it may just not been enough time. It can take over 3 weeks to get a hatching sometimes and going by your first post it just hasn't been long enough. Also, it takes a bit of practice to get it just right.

The white fungus is a sign that you don't have enough airflow in the container, so you'll likely need more holes or a larger hole with some screen over it. My egg containers have a 1in hole in the lid with screen over it for airflow... really just have to adjust it to your conditions... enough for air flow and little enough not to have the sponge dry out (or keep it in a really humid incubator).


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

If you had access to a steady supply of pinheads would it be better to feed 1-2 week old gut loaded dusted pinheads on a daily basis rather than fruit flies? Any downside to feeding too many pinheads?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have been using pinheads/10 day old crickets to feed dendrobatids and other small frogs for more than 15 years. I do also use some ffs but the bulk of thier diet has been crickets. 

There has been a link in some hylids (mainly females) that as they get older they are predisposed to a disease called corneal lipidosis where cholesterol levels get very high until you can see deposition on the eyes of the frogs however this is associated with all of the commonly cultured feeder insects (and I haven't seen it in a dendrobatid frog yet) purportedly due to thier higher levels of some fatty acids like lineoleic acid. 

When you are considering gut loading are you considering just a nutritious diet or are you looking to adjust the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the crickets??

Ed


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Thanks for the info Ed



Ed said:


> When you are considering gut loading are you considering just a nutritious diet or are you looking to adjust the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the crickets??Ed


Just a nutritious diet - baby cereal that is high in calcium, romain lettuce, orange slice, finely crushed kitten food that is high in protein, sweet potato. Sound OK???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That should be an okay gutloading diet. 

Ed


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Is there other/better food to feed them?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

1-2wk old crickets are not pinheads! Pinheads are the freshly hatched... once over a week old then they are usually organized by age or size depending on who you talk to 

Ed, have you seen the acient galacs at the National Zoo? Yeager had pics of them that seemed to show the foggy eyes... don't know if it was diet related. I'm in the process of migrating all my websites so I can't easily reference the pic :?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

KeroKero said:


> 1-2wk old crickets are not pinheads! Pinheads are the freshly hatched... once over a week old then they are usually organized by age or size depending on who you talk to


I stand corrected  I'm just getting started raising crickets. My first batch of eggs should hatch any day. I'm not up on all the CRICKET LINGO yet


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's ok grasshopper  I just get peeved with some cricket companies going yeah... we have pinheads... then they seen week olds and what not... a significant difference in size that some of my animals can't or perfer not to eat. Not that true pinheads are hardy enough to ship well anyways which is why buying pinheads IMO is a waste of money instead of investing for a 1/4 of the # of adults and breeding your own.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Corey,

I use crickets up to 10 days old for the larger dendrobatids including azureus. 

With respect to the galactanotus, if the eye itself is cloudy it may not be corneal lipidosis but cataracts. I have seen cataracts in Dendrobatids. 

Corneal lipidosis is very different looking (see http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.ph ... &user=1157) 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yeah, they are cateracts. Right when I read the word on your post I wanted to smack my forehead. Duh. Old man galacs lol.

Any ideas on how to not get corneal lipidosis and why it's in hylids more than PDFs (the diets?)? Getting O/T guess we should start another thread to get into that...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> Yeah, they are cateracts. Right when I read the word on your post I wanted to smack my forehead. Duh. Old man galacs lol.
> 
> Any ideas on how to not get corneal lipidosis and why it's in hylids more than PDFs (the diets?)? Getting O/T guess we should start another thread to get into that...


The current theory is that because it tends to primarily be in female hylids has to do with the amount that they are fed and lack of reproductive options. 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

because they _aren't_ reproducing and are used to building up reserves that get depleated after laying?


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