# Petco FF to Start Cultures?



## atp0726 (Jan 21, 2014)

I have been trying to get FF for weeks and due to the extreme cold I haven't been able to get any shipped. I really wanted to get my culturing skills down before getting frogs. I have visited a few Petcos in my area and they had some sad looking cultures but some did have enough flys to get something started. 

Am I just setting my self up for defeat by trying this? Again, I don't have any frogs yet and it will be used as a learning experience.

Also, is there anyway to start cultures from the Petco cultures and avoid mites that they undoubtedly will contain?


----------



## Soldier17 (Mar 26, 2012)

You can use the Petco cultures to start new ones. I recommend that you dust the fruit flies before adding them to the new culture. The mites will stay behind in the dusting cup.


----------



## atp0726 (Jan 21, 2014)

Wow, thanks for the quick reply. Dust them with what? Calcium powder?


----------



## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I used petco culture to start all of mine, and I'll tell you what those things get going, boy THEY REALLLLY GET GOING. I just use mite spray.


----------



## atp0726 (Jan 21, 2014)

mfsidore said:


> I used petco culture to start all of mine, and I'll tell you what those things get going, boy THEY REALLLLY GET GOING. I just use mite spray.


You spray the mite spray in the Petco fly culture before adding flies to the fresh culture?


----------



## punctata (Jan 31, 2011)

where are you located. Many members will sell you a culture if they have some to spare in close by.


----------



## ngeno626 (Nov 14, 2013)

no you can spray it around the culture. I would go with the calcium dusting method first. dust the hell out of them in a solo cup then transfer them to another solo cup dust again then into the new culture..
this is just an extra step to try to get rid of the majority of them. 
the mites have trouble moving in the powder making their transfer into the new culture more difficult. 
you can also ask around here someone might give you a culture.
I didn't look at your location but if you are near nj ill give you a couple


----------



## atp0726 (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks I appreciate the the offer! I am North of Albany NY. Somehow it seems I am the only person in a 3hr Radius of Albany NY interested in dart frogs! 



ngeno626 said:


> no you can spray it around the culture. I would go with the calcium dusting method first. dust the hell out of them in a solo cup then transfer them to another solo cup dust again then into the new culture..
> this is just an extra step to try to get rid of the majority of them.
> the mites have trouble moving in the powder making their transfer into the new culture more difficult.
> you can also ask around here someone might give you a culture.
> I didn't look at your location but if you are near nj ill give you a couple


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

atp0726 said:


> Thanks I appreciate the the offer! I am North of Albany NY. Somehow it seems I am the only person in a 3hr Radius of Albany NY interested in dart frogs!


You won't know until you start the thread called, "Flies needed in Albany, NY".


----------



## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

atp0726 said:


> You spray the mite spray in the Petco fly culture before adding flies to the fresh culture?


No, once it get going spray around around it.


----------



## TheCoon (Feb 8, 2011)

I've noticed that the flies from Petco are somewhat "crazy", for lack of a better word. They jump and are harder to handle than your typical melano. Just my two cents. 

However, I'm sure they are just as delicious when you're in need of flies in a hurry.


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Some Petco stores carry "gliders". They are not wingless. They are smaller than wingless flies, harder to manage and multiply more rapidly. I don't care for them, as they do seem to get everywhere. Some people really like them.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Turkish Gliders rule, dude! Rock On!!

I mean, I believe you may be referring to Turkish Gliders. They are another genetically manipulated Melonogaster fly. They are my fly of choice, and in fact are the only fly I work with. I have no idea where "Turkish" comes from, but "Gliders" is because they glide. More than any other fly, these little guys _think_ they can still fly. Compound that with illusions of grandeur, and an elongated wing, much like the "standard" paper airplane, and you have some active flies. They jump around at times, because they are trying to take off, and if they happen to be an inch or two up, on a piece of wood, they are going to get some distance. If they crawl to the top of the tank, it may actually seem as if they are flying when they jump. 
I like this, because nothing elicits a feeding response from our frogs like movement. Movement means dinner. Remember Jurassic Park? If you don't move he can't see you? Watch your frogs eating. If the fly doesn't twitch, neither does the frog. A stationary fly is an invisible fly. Therefore, a moving fly is dinner.
Of course you may need to brush up on your fly wrangling skills, but remember, they can only jump and glide. All you have to do is tap the sides of your culture to keep them down. With just a little bit of practice, you'll be transferring flies with zero escapees, too.
Now there is one more big thing that Glider lovers tout, and that would be that the longer wing carries more vitamin powder to your frogs.
In closing, consider the Turkish Glider for your own use, and ROCK ON, DUDE!!


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Petco fruit flies are fine --they are by the fruit fly co and are fairly good quality, and generally mite-free in my experience (but really expensive lol). The main issue with them I'd say is obtaining the culture from petco at the right time. Petco doesn't really know how to handle them sometimes, so sometimes they're kept for way after the culture has overproduced and crashed, and sometimes they're kept right next to something that'll infest them with mites (like crickets). I wouldn't buy a culture that's past its prime.

The best thing to do is ask the employees when the next fly shipment comes in, and buy them then.

Also, as mentioned, post in your regional section. I'm sure there's more of you out there willing to lend a hand
NorthEast - Dendroboard


----------



## atp0726 (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses. I am not desperate yet and just wanted to get a culture to play around with and get some experience. 

I stopped by a Petco at on my way home and there was s smorgasbord of cultures some new and some really old. These guys were definitely not wingless and popping around the container, almost looked like they could fly if the top were removed (Who knows maybe a wild FF got into them because you can easily unscrew the top and remove the lid) I didn't pick one up because I wasn't sure if flies should be jumping around like that but sounds like they might be the glider variety.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

I used these as my starter culture when I got my 1st frogs. I went a bit crazy though thinking the 2 frogs I had needed me to make a culture every weekend. I had so many that I was throwing out cups I'd fed from maybe once or twice. The do breed fast and Doug is right the frogs love how active that strain is.


----------



## Jeremy M (Oct 19, 2012)

I've done this, but started out with the tiny litle cultures that they sold for betta food. The flies came in a film canister-shaped clear plastic tube, and both the media and the lid was a sickly shade of plasticy-looking blue. The lid itself was one of those spice lids where you can rotate the top to have different sized holes at the entrance, with the intention of literally shaking the flies out of the culture like you would salt from a salt shaker... I facepalmed when I saw it, and had to buy it  Partially because I wanted to see how bad of a living setup this would prove to be, and how long it would take for the flies I didn't transfer out to die an unnaturally young death. There were very few flies in the culture but they grew and bred well where I transferred them out to. Somewhere along the way this starter got tipped on its side, and though it was solid, the media eventually moved so where it was near the lid. I noticed that the culture was knocked over from the penny-sized mass of writhing maggots that had squirmed through the lid... great. I guess they had good reason to escape though, since about two weeks later when I went back to see how the main one was doing (I had plenty of producing cultures from it at this point) every single fly, grub and pupae in the culture were rotting black on the sides. I was surprised to see this, since I thought it would be another week before that kind of collapse might happened.


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

It always seemed to me that culturing Petco flies and flies from some other providers are designed to "start flying" after a few generations. Its an anecdotal experience, but compared to my "old" line of melos, Petco cultures were problematic, but good for emergencies.


----------



## Elphaba (Aug 26, 2007)

oldlady25715 said:


> It always seemed to me that culturing Petco flies and flies from some other providers are designed to "start flying" after a few generations. Its an anecdotal experience, but compared to my "old" line of melos, Petco cultures were problematic, but good for emergencies.


I've got to agree with this. I sometimes grab a culture from Petco to liven up my offerings, and recently I thought I'd gotten lucky because I saw flies gliding around inside the culture. Awesome! I thought. Frogs love gliders!

I tapped the flies down to the bottom of the culture, opened it, and the "gliders" proceeded to begin soaring around my room straight out of the culture's depths. This isn't the end of the world by any means. I just put the culture in the refrigerator a few minutes before opening it again to feed out the flies. This stuns the flies and makes them "sleep" and the frogs do seem to like going after the energetic prey, but it can get annoying later when I open the tanks to mist and the flies come buzzing out to say hello to me.

Good luck with culturing! You'll be a master in no time. =)

Best,
Ash


----------



## Polypodium (Jan 3, 2011)

My Petco cultures have turned into full fliers once or twice when they were in the second and third bloom. Very annoying indeed.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

oldlady25715 said:


> It always seemed to me that culturing Petco flies and flies from some other providers are designed to "start flying" after a few generations. Its an anecdotal experience, but compared to my "old" line of melos, Petco cultures were problematic, but good for emergencies.


Can anybody who is well versed in genetics please comment on the possibility of this? I'm not sure I can swallow the possibility of a fly that has been genetically programmed to become a flier in several generations. That seems outside the possibilities of simplicity. That sounds like a very difficult and expensive bit of genetic magic to pull off. I don't believe Petco's demand for feeders could finance such an operation.

I might swallow that inferior packaging allows wild flies to get in. I am NOT making a statement about their packaging. I am simply surmising other possibilities. I could also believe that perhaps poor handling, before the culture arrives in a hobbyists hands, allowed a wild fly to get in, resulting in some fliers in the next generation, and lot's in the following generation, until the hobbyist notices.


----------



## atp0726 (Jan 21, 2014)

Pumilo said:


> Can anybody who is well versed in genetics please comment on the possibility of this? I'm not sure I can swallow the possibility of a fly that has been genetically programmed to become a flier in several generations. That seems outside the possibilities of simplicity. That sounds like a very difficult and expensive bit of genetic magic to pull off. I don't believe Petco's demand for feeders could finance such an operation.
> 
> I might swallow that inferior packaging allows wild flies to get in. I am NOT making a statement about their packaging. I am simply surmising other possibilities. I could also believe that perhaps poor handling, before the culture arrives in a hobbyists hands, allowed a wild fly to get in, resulting in some fliers in the next generation, and lot's in the following generation, until the hobbyist notices.


I can speak to the packaging and it was the reason I didn't purchase the flies on my trip to Petco yesterday. Even with my new limited knowledge I am aware of the possibility of a lone fly getting into the culture and passing on their dominant genes. The jars that the flies are packaged in can be quickly unscrewed and opened by any curious customer. I actually took one of the better looking cultures and pushed it to the back thinking customers might be more likely to open a jar in the front and leave the decent culture alone in case I decided to return to purchase it. 

I also would imagine Petco must be swarming with FF considering they have all kinds of food out in the open. The FF container (It didn't look like no-seeum screen) themselves only have screen for ventilation and probably attract wild flies themselves.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I wouldn't really say that "fly that has been genetically programmed to become a flier in several generations." BUT, as you know, FFs can revert back to fliers.

There are a couple different mutant strains of flies out there, and mixing the different strains can result in flying offspring. The main mutants are apterous (wingless), vestigial (flightless), and I think curly (turkish gliders? why are they called turkish btw?). 

All that being said, at least one of the the strains is temperature sensitive, and reverts back to being able to fly if grown above 80F (apterous, I believe). The flies are still genetically "apterous", so if grown back under cooler temperatures I think they should revert back to being flightless in a few generations.

Short version: unless the flies are kept at the wrong temperature, a wild-type fly gets into the culture, you mix different strains, or you keep them next to a source of x-rays, the flightless flies should not start flying.


----------



## JonRich (Oct 19, 2012)

atp0726 said:


> Thanks I appreciate the the offer! I am North of Albany NY. Somehow it seems I am the only person in a 3hr Radius of Albany NY interested in dart frogs!


You'd be surprised. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/northeast/93223-anyone-new-york.html


----------



## atp0726 (Jan 21, 2014)

JonRich said:


> You'd be surprised.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/northeast/93223-anyone-new-york.html



Thanks, actually looked through this list already. Everyone is at least 2.5 hrs from me . One person posted from my area and that was his only post on the board. It's really no big deal just makes it tough to get frogs, flies and plants during winter months. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheCoon (Feb 8, 2011)

In the thousands of flies you produce after 2-3 cultures it is not unreasonable to imagine a mutant fly would exist among the bunch. It would only take one fly to revert and produce hundreds of similar offspring. I'd hypothesize that different strains of flies have a higher chance of reverting back based on how far off they are genetically from their flying ancestors. These "gliders" may only lack the genetic sequence that codes for a protein necessary for muscle function in the wings. This could be as significant as a few base pairs... while the wingless flies likely lack much more of the "flying fly's" genome and thus have a smaller chance of reverting. 

Chemical engineer, not a biologist, so just thinking out loud...


----------



## RikRok (Nov 5, 2009)

How long did it take to get flyers for those that have had it happen? My current cultures originated from petco and id say at its been at least a year with no problems thus far (knock on wood) the lids on them are flimsy so maybe if you reuse them thats where they get contamimated maybe?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Can anybody who is well versed in genetics please comment on the possibility of this? I'm not sure I can swallow the possibility of a fly that has been genetically programmed to become a flier in several generations. That seems outside the possibilities of simplicity. That sounds like a very difficult and expensive bit of genetic magic to pull off. I don't believe Petco's demand for feeders could finance such an operation.


I had to laugh when I read this... Doug, your instincts are right on the money. The flies we typically culture have pretty stable mutations so the risk is pretty small that you'll end up with a culture reverting to flight. The idea that the cultures contain flies gentically programmed to revert after some number of generations is hilarious. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## joshuabradley1 (Feb 21, 2008)

I like using the little vials that Petsmart has as starters. I dump the flies into a bigger container ready to start. I just leave the larvae in the vial and feed those when grown. They use the foam stopper and are from timberland so probably safer than Petcos screw lids.


----------



## Dart girl (Sep 25, 2013)

TheCoon said:


> I've noticed that the flies from Petco are somewhat "crazy", for lack of a better word. They jump and are harder to handle than your typical melano. Just my two cents.
> 
> 
> 
> However, I'm sure they are just as delicious when you're in need of flies in a hurry.


When I used to get them from pet co I used to chill them for 20 seconds in the fridge to slow them down




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thank you Ed. That's what I thought, but I have no backing in genetics to say it with any authority. 

If you are running out to Petco to buy emergency cultures, just maybe your own culturing techniques may hold some fault. I mean, why do you need emergency cultures if your techniques are up to par? Blame it on Petco.


----------



## Elphaba (Aug 26, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Thank you Ed. That's what I thought, but I have no backing in genetics to say it with any authority.
> 
> If you are running out to Petco to buy emergency cultures, just maybe your own culturing techniques may hold some fault. I mean, why do you need emergency cultures if your techniques are up to par? Blame it on Petco.


I went back and reread this thread and had to laugh to myself too -- I should've paid more attention the first time. I don't think Petco's flies are "designed" to eventually become fliers at all! I've just found it more likely that they will become fliers after a while. I have no idea why! 

I don't make a habit of buying cultures from there or anywhere anymore, being that I have very few frogs myself and the 2-3 cultures I make in rotation sustain my guys just fine. Very rarely, though, it's nice to go get some feisty flies. Like some people have said on this thread already, the Petco flies are very robust and energetic and scurry around a lot. The flies I have in-house are lazier and don't get my leucs to exercise very much. Whether the frogs benefit much from occasional aerobics or not, it's still lots of fun to watch...

Best,
Ash


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> If you are running out to Petco to buy emergency cultures, just maybe your own culturing techniques may hold some fault. I mean, why do you need emergency cultures if your techniques are up to par? Blame it on Petco.


Assuming this comment is directed toward me, I'm not sure why you feel the need to "call me out" to this degree. After having worked with dart frogs for 10 years I have had to find emergency cultures for various reasons--that's ok. 

I was simply stating my experience and suspicion based on this experience ,that also correlates to the economics of running a business. Petco certainly prescribes to a business model that keeps customers returning for feeders, and so do other vendors. 

Hypostatic provided a very constructive post as to how flight could occur for a number of reasons, some by anthropogenic design, some not. I have also heard from one other source that cultures can be designed to promulgate in the manner described by mixing the different strains. 

There may also be trade secrets you don't know.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> Hypostatic provided a very constructive post as to how flight could occur for a number of reasons, some by anthropogenic design, some not. I have also heard from one other source that cultures can be designed to promulgate in the manner described by mixing the different strains.
> 
> There may also be trade secrets you don't know.



I'm not sure who your "other source" is but they either didn't explain it well or they just don't understand it.... If you mix two strains of D. melanogaster that have different mutations that convey an inability to fly, you get fliers right from the start... In fact, if you used one fly from each strain, 100% of the offspring should be able to fly. The only reason you don't get 100% in a culture is because some of the flies mate within their own strain thus passing along the flightless condition. 

As for being designed to revert to flight after several generations.... The answer is no... Even if you reared vestigial D. melanogaster at temperatures above 81-85 F you will get flies that fly.... but if you cool the cultures back below 81 F... they all revert to non-flying.. the reason is because the temperatures allow for the flies to make a stable protein required for flight.. once the temperatures drop.. the protein doesn't form properly and voila no flight... 

As for trade secrets with the flies... hilarious... there are few cultured organisms that have so much of not only their biology but culture requirements available to the public... There aren't going to be any "trade secrets" involved in the genetics of the flies from pet co or any other vendor.

Maybe this link will help people Frog Forum - Fruit Fly Culturing, Care and Feeding - Everything you need to know about Drosophila 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

oldlady25715 said:


> Assuming this comment is directed toward me, I'm not sure why you feel the need to "call me out" to this degree.


You made a potentially damaging, outrageous claim, and you are continuing to do so. Petco is not performing the impossible to somehow make your cultures turn into fliers, several generation AFTER you get them. They are in your care far too long to blame it on them. 
It's just not possible. That's why.


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure who your "other source" is but they either didn't explain it well or they just don't understand it.... If you mix two strains of D. melanogaster that have different mutations that convey an inability to fly, you get fliers right from the start... In fact, if you used one fly from each strain, 100% of the offspring should be able to fly. The only reason you don't get 100% in a culture is because some of the flies mate within their own strain thus passing along the flightless condition.


I am no expert on this matter, but I'll play ball... Its conceivable that a few dominate gene pupae/eggs could be added to culture of submissive gene adult flies AND submissive larvae/eggs. The user hobbyist gets home and feeds the existing flightless flies to animals, appearing as "one round of flightless flies". 

When the larve/eggs in the media morph, some may be fed to a frog, some may die, some may not mate, but you'd have a "second round" of 99% flightless flies because one or two would hold the dominate gene, but you might never see them. 

Next the eggs from the submissive gene adult flies that were originally in the culture would morph creating a "third round" of flightless flies. 

If the dominate fly successfully mates, then the "fourth round" would hatch some dominate flying flies and flightless flies, resulting in what appears to be a "fourth round" of flies that "starts flying". If it doesn't mate for various reasons, you'd get a 100% recessive "fourth round" of flightless flies suitable for future breeders. 

This process could appear to be an illusion of genetic design or something fancy, but it would be as simple as inserting one or two dominate gene larvae from a flying culture into a starter culture to get "three rounds" of flightless flies. It could also be construed as a trade secret you'd didn't know about or consider because you don't breed fruit flies for sale and because you are not omnipotent. 



Ed said:


> As for trade secrets with the flies... hilarious... there are few cultured organisms that have so much of not only their biology but culture requirements available to the public... There aren't going to be any "trade secrets" involved in the genetics of the flies from pet co or any other vendor.


See example above. You are only considering science, but not the perspective of an entrepreneur.


----------



## TheCoon (Feb 8, 2011)

From this:



Pumilo said:


> Can anybody who is well versed in genetics please comment on the possibility of this?


To this:



Pumilo said:


> It's just not possible. That's why.


in 13 hours... Sign me up for that class! Since you're now "well versed", how do you feel about the possibility of using a virus to reintroduce the codons missing for flight? As Ed mentioned, the fruit fly is so well understood that I think you'd be more surprised at what IS possible...


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

So I've actually bought a good amount of fruit fly co jars from petco (usually because I've run out unexpectedly). In about 3 years of usage, I've never encountered a flier.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

TheCoon said:


> From this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never said I was well versed in genetics.
Somebody slandered Petco with an unfounded, unproven claim. I strongly believed it to be untrue. Somebody smarter than I, backed that up, and I tend to believe him.

Let me ask you this. Do you seriously believe that Petco has flies purposely, "designed to "start flying" after a few generations"?
Do you really believe this to be true? Or could it be more likely that the several people that jumped on that bandwagon, just might have allowed a flier in, or allowed them to get too warm?
I feel that if you are going to slander a business, you should have some proof of those claims.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I've screwed up cultures. I have created fliers by accident. I didn't slander anyone when I did so.


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Somebody slandered Petco with an unfounded, unproven claim


What slander claim was this? Are you a lawyer now too?


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

It would be slander to state that petco sabotages their culture so that you could not use them for extended periods. That's dirty business that won't make them rich. i.e. pointless


Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Would it be? In what court of law? 

Furthermore that's not what I said. I didn't state anything to be a fact. Quote me on the "slander"


----------



## RikRok (Nov 5, 2009)

Regardless if its possible or not,(where I agree its not likely) I dont see where it was originally stated as fact i.e. "slander" that it was possible. A simple "thats not possible and this is why" would have sufficed; instead of finding it "hilarious" and insinuating someones techniques arent up to par. I mean, we're all here to gather info and share knowledge not judge others and automatically jump on someone because their "opinions" and "experiences" might be flawed. Now if proof is presented and the convo keeps going then thats a different story. 

This is no disrespect to anyone, but a little graciousness from all would bring a lot more enjoyment in this hobby/forum...at least thats my opinion. But I digress.




oldlady25715 said:


> It always seemed to me.... Its an anecdotal experience, but compared to my "old" line of melos, Petco cultures were problematic, but good for emergencies


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

oldlady25715 said:


> What slander claim was this? Are you a lawyer now too?


Nope, and my choice of the word slander was very poor, sorry for that.

You know what, initially my comment was directed at the entire bandwagon that was forming, smearing Petco.
I didn't attack anyone. Petco was attacked with unfounded claims. I pointed out that it is much more likely that people made mistakes with their cultures, than Petco purposely designing a fly that will genetically fail after several generations.
I believe wholeheartedly that Petco did NOT do such a thing. That would be an extremely poor business model. I don't believe that they would strive to create the worst cultures in the business. I don't believe they got where they did by purposely striving to be the absolute worst. That does not make sense. 
People making mistakes, the same mistake that I know I have made, now that makes sense. 
This bores me and I am done.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Honestly, I don't think petco has the coordination to hatch such a dastardly plan.

Oh in case someone didn't say it (though I think it _has _been mentioned), maybe a customer/emplyee opened a culture in the store and a wild type fly got in


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> Honestly, I don't think petco has the coordination to hatch such a dastardly plan.
> 
> Oh in case someone didn't say it (though I think it _has _been mentioned), maybe a customer/emplyee opened a culture in the store and a wild type fly got in


Most of the times when I've gotten premade cultures from a company (and I'm referring to a bigger feeder company than the one under discussion) that included a flying insect, they were always phorid flies and not melanogaster.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RikRok said:


> A simple "thats not possible and this is why" would have sufficed; instead of finding it "hilarious" and insinuating someones techniques arent up to par.


Trust me, if I thought someone's techniques were subpar, there wouldn't be any question on my thoughts.. 

As for the hilarious comment... if you have a good understanding of the science behind what would be required, you would find it funny as well...and I did start to laugh when I read the comment.... particularly since it's being thrown out there to support a conspiracy claim about petco... 

For it to do what the conspiracy theorists are claiming, it would require engineering a fly with a new mutation and control that would activate the blocked gene after N generations... Sorry we're not there yet much less for it to be economically feasible as preventative measure to "control" what happens after you take the flies home..... As a method to prevent people from culturing from the cultures sold in the store, it is much more economically feasible to sterilize the males but this then prevents larva from being seen in the media and is a give-away..... 

As for the "that's why" and shared information comments.... I am always surprised at the comments that people who understand a topic are always required to "share" their information as if the other posters have a right to demand it from you. If you ask anyone on here, I tend to be very sharing with my knowledge and even often go above and beyond with citations and references to prove my point.. but I am under no obligation to do so. If you are unwilling to look up things on your own, then that is your problem and not mine if you or anyone else makes a comment that is hilarious.... Everyone can access googlescholar and abstracts are often enlightening and you can always purchase or gain access to the articles to complete the ability to gain knowledge. 
Ignorance is not an entitlement to be spoon fed knowledge.. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> I am no expert on this matter, but I'll play ball... Its conceivable that a few dominate gene pupae/eggs could be added to culture of submissive gene adult flies AND submissive larvae/eggs. The user hobbyist gets home and feeds the existing flightless flies to animals, appearing as "one round of flightless flies".
> When the larve/eggs in the media morph, some may be fed to a frog, some may die, some may not mate, but you'd have a "second round" of 99% flightless flies because one or two would hold the dominate gene, but you might never see them.


You would be able to tell their were flying flies in the culture as soon as you opened it... they would have come streaming out of the top.... It's a little hard to miss and they would be present in the emergences very rapidly without having to wait until the third or fourth round as you are postulating... 

It is uncommon to have these cultures revert to flying as the mutations are very stable and have been selected over time to be very stable. People often forget that some of these mutations have been in culture since the 1920s... 

The additional amount of time required to add some larvae or pupae of a flying strain or one whose genes would enable flight would add additional costs with little gain. I would bet that for most pet stores, they don't really make that much if anything on the cultures given how many cultures crash in the store... and are discarded. In addition, if you are adding larvae or pupae to the cultures, these would emerge first and you would have flying flies pretty quickly after the first boom.. not three to four generations later..... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Ed, I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate most of your posts, however with 16,000 plus you're destined to be off-point occasionally and I believe this is one instance. 

I originally stated that


oldlady25715 said:


> It always seemed to me that culturing Petco flies and flies from some other providers are designed to "start flying" after a few generations.



I did not state that are genetically engineered to do so. You jumped on the assumption that I meant genetically engineered to fly after a few generations, which is not what I said. This was the first instance you were "off point" and failed to consider the breadth of the scope of my postulation, if you will. 

Like a fly on sticky paper, you have adhered to the concept of genetic engineering throughout, when I had already considered and dismissed that line of logic. My line of logic continued on the path of critical analysis rather than simply postulating that such a feat was "impossible" and "laughable" that a culture could be designed to fly after what "seems like" a few generations. I think a culture could be designed to do so by implanting one or two dominate gene pupae at the right time.

Then, after a lot hoopla, I stated an example where, through timing and quantitative design--NOT genetics, the cultures can be designed to fly after what "seems" like a few generations of non-fliers. 



oldlady25715 said:


> Its conceivable that a few dominate gene pupae/eggs could be added to culture of submissive gene adult flies AND submissive larvae/eggs. The user hobbyist gets home and feeds the existing flightless flies to animals, appearing as "one round of flightless flies".
> 
> When the larve/eggs in the media morph, some may be fed to a frog, some may die, some may not mate, but you'd have a "second round" of 99% flightless flies because one or two would hold the dominate gene, but you might never see them.
> 
> ...



A day or two later, perhaps after you were busy laughing during cocktail parties at the impossibility of genetically engineering fruit fly cultures to fly after a few generations, you stated: 


Ed said:


> You would be able to tell their were flying flies in the culture as soon as you opened it... they would have come streaming out of the top.... It's a little hard to miss and they would be present in the emergences very rapidly without having to wait until the third or fourth round as you are postulating...



Which is again off point because I started my postulation with:


oldlady25715 said:


> Its conceivable that a few dominate gene pupae/eggs could be added to culture of SUBMISSIVE GENE ADULT FLIES AND submissive larvae/eggs. The user hobbyist gets home and feeds the existing flightless flies to animals, appearing as "one round of flightless flies".



The phrased emphasized by caps clearly indicates that I postulated the culture would be populated with non-fliers when initially opened. 

I can explain my concept to you, but I can't help you understand it much more than this. 

Furthermore, in response to:


Ed said:


> The additional amount of time required to add some larvae or pupae of a flying strain or one whose genes would enable flight would add additional costs with little gain.
> Ed


I disagree. It would keep customers coming back for more and not enable them to culture an endless supply of product themselves. The economic term is "planned obsolescence"--its a corporate staple and the reason why China is taking over the world. 



Ed said:


> In addition, if you are adding larvae or pupae to the cultures, these would emerge first and you would have flying flies pretty quickly after the first boom.. not three to four generations later.....
> 
> Ed


Are you stating that submissive gene, flightless flies metamorphose slower than flying flies? Again I'm no expert, but wouldn't the rate of metamophaiphisis be due to a seperate gene than the one that predicates flight?

I really have no dogs in this fight and thankfully view fruit flies solely as affordable resource that makes these frogs far more preferable to pets that eat crickets or rodents. Please don't be offended by the cheeky nature of this post--those elements are in the sprit of good fun and a spirited debate.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> I did not state that are genetically engineered to do so. You jumped on the assumption that I meant genetically engineered to fly after a few generations, which is not what I said. This was the first instance you were "off point" and failed to consider the breadth of the scope of my postulation, if you will.


No.. the fruit flies in the hobby are the result of using radiation to induce stable mutations. For your premise to function: ie, that they are *"designed" * note the choice of your words.( You used designed and with fruit flies (and in fact biology in general, refers to genetic engineering)..) it would require a gene modified to turn on or off after "3-4 generations". Which at this time is really funny if you understand the science. 



oldlady25715 said:


> I think a culture could be designed to do so by implanting one or two dominate gene pupae at the right time.


Note the use of the word implanting... this is commonly used as a descriptor for genetic engineering... So.... 




oldlady25715 said:


> Are you stating that submissive gene, flightless flies metamorphose slower than flying flies? Again I'm no expert, but wouldn't the rate of metamophaiphisis be due to a seperate gene than the one that predicates flight?


If you had bothered to critically read my post.. I had answered that question... See below. 



oldlady25715 said:


> I really have no dogs in this fight and thankfully view fruit flies solely as affordable resource that makes these frogs far more preferable to pets that eat crickets or rodents. Please don't be offended by the cheeky nature of this post--those elements are in the sprit of good fun and a spirited debate.


The problem here is that you are postulating about a field in which you aren't well versed. For example, all of the flightless genes are recessive to flight. So to add any "dominant" genes to the culture would as I previously noted, be seen right as soon as the culture was opened, they would fly right up and out. 
Second.. if you attempt to do this with two recessive genes that code for different forms of flightlessness say curly wing and apterous, the first generation of flies from the mixed culture will include flying flies... It doesn't take multiple generations for the culture to demonstrate reversion. 
In addition, any attempt to delay the development of flying flies would require adding different age classes of flies to the containers.. and this would only delay the development of flight one generation.. in other words somewhere between 14 and 20 days. Again, not three to four generations as you originally claimed. It would require someone with a microscope sorting out eggs or first instar larvae to result in flight in 14-20 days... a significant cost addition for little gain... the economics here aren't worth it particularly since I highly doubt PetCo is producing their own flies. Most of the places like PetCo that sell flies, purchase them from a supply company like Timberline.. they may send their own packaging but economically to try and force repeat business on what is going to be a very small part of their sales model is highly unlikely. If we look at the historic sales models for pet stores, fish used to account for 50-60% of pet store sales with reptiles and amphibians running about 10%, small animals about 10%, birds about 10% and dog and cat making up the remainder. Now dog and cat toys, treats, and other marketing makes up much more of the sales model at the cost of the other areas... This can be seen by looking at the amount of sales space allotted to the different animals.... Reptiles and amphibians are still around 10%... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> No.. the fruit flies in the hobby are the result of using radiation to induce stable mutations. For your premise to function: ie, that they are *"designed" * note the choice of your words.( You used designed and with fruit flies (and in fact biology in general, refers to genetic engineering)..) it would require a gene modified to turn on or off after "3-4 generations". Which at this time is really funny if you understand the science.


"Designed" 
adjective 
made or done intentionally; intended; planned. 

I did not couch it in terms of biology. 



Ed said:


> Note the use of the word implanting... this is commonly used as a descriptor for genetic engineering... So....


"implant"
verb (used with object) 
1. to put or fix firmly
2. to plant securely. 
3. Medicine/Medical . to insert or graft (a tissue, organ, or inert substance) into the body. 

Again, a far further encompassing term than just in biology.




Ed said:


> The problem here is that you are postulating about a field in which you aren't well versed. For example, all of the flightless genes are recessive to flight. So to add any "dominant" genes to the culture would as I previously noted, be seen right as soon as the culture was opened, they would fly right up and out.


The dominate gene carrier could not fly it were still a larvae when the culture was opened. I clearly postulated the adult flies implanted in the culture would be flightless...



oldlady25715 said:


> Its conceivable that a few dominate gene pupae/eggs could be added to culture of submissive gene adult flies AND submissive larvae/eggs. The user hobbyist gets home and feeds the existing flightless flies to animals, appearing as "one round of flightless flies".






Ed said:


> Second.. if you attempt to do this with two recessive genes that code for different forms of flightlessness say curly wing and apterous, the first generation of flies from the mixed culture will include flying flies... It doesn't take multiple generations for the culture to demonstrate reversion.


The first generation is whatever is put in the culture, which would be flightless flies


My example notes that generations would be a illusion, and my original statement said "seems" which is consistent with a perception of something that is actually an illusion. 



oldlady25715 said:


> Its conceivable that a few dominate gene pupae/eggs could be added to culture of submissive gene adult flies AND submissive larvae/eggs. The user hobbyist gets home and feeds the existing flightless flies to animals, appearing as "one round of flightless flies".


Note "appearing as one round of flightless flies"



oldlady25715 said:


> When the larve/eggs in the media morph, some may be fed to a frog, some may die, some may not mate, but you'd have a "second round" of 99% flightless flies because one or two would hold the dominate gene, but you might never see them.
> 
> Next the eggs from the submissive gene adult flies that were originally in the culture would morph creating a "third round" of flightless flies.
> 
> If the dominate fly successfully mates, then the "fourth round" would hatch some dominate flying flies and flightless flies, resulting in what appears to be a "fourth round" of flies that "starts flying".


Note the oscillating dual populations that would constitute what seems like flight after a few generations.



Ed said:


> In addition, any attempt to delay the development of flying flies would require adding different age classes of flies to the containers.. and this would only delay the development of flight one generation.. in other words somewhere between 14 and 20 days. Again, not three to four generations as you originally claimed. .


14-20 days would be enough if there were two separate populations in the culture. These populations would alternate metamorphosis, "appearing" to the novice as 3 or 4 generations. 




Ed said:


> It would require someone with a microscope sorting out eggs or first instar larvae to result in flight in 14-20 days... a significant cost addition for little gain... the economics here aren't worth it particularly since I highly doubt PetCo is producing their own flies.


All it would it take is a kid making $7.50 an hour to pull one larvae or one egg out of a flying culture and inserting it into a flightless culture. This concept is very simple, would not require any analysis, and very marginal additional cost. 




Ed said:


> Most of the places like PetCo that sell flies, purchase them from a supply company like Timberline.. they may send their own packaging but economically to try and force repeat business on what is going to be a very small part of their sales model is highly unlikely. If we look at the historic sales models for pet stores, fish used to account for 50-60% of pet store sales with reptiles and amphibians running about 10%, small animals about 10%, birds about 10% and dog and cat making up the remainder. Now dog and cat toys, treats, and other marketing makes up much more of the sales model at the cost of the other areas... This can be seen by looking at the amount of sales space allotted to the different animals.... Reptiles and amphibians are still around 10%...


So herps are 10%, and FF sales are less than 0.5% of the 10%, but lets assume 0.5% for the sake of argument . Reptiles and Amphibians are a billion plus dollar annual industry. 10% of a billion is $100 million, and 0.5% of $100 million is $500,000 anually. That would be a lot for a kid making $7.50 an hour. Or another way to look at is it could double the demand for cultures since the customers would need to keep returning. Seems like good business sense me.


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I let my kids culture the insects. And as they would they forgot the fruit flies and allowed them to die off. So I popped into petco and picked up a culture. 

We have now been culturing them for over 6 months and they have never gained the ability to fly. But that said they are certainly more unruly than the previous flies we had. They bounce jump hop and pop all over the place. Personally I think its fun for the frogs but they do escape more. 

However there is a very easy genetic trick that could be used to make flies that start flying after a while. You just make a poly nucleotide stretch and eventually their will be a slip in replication either inactivating or activating a gene by frame shift mutation. This is definitely not beyond our current science. Planned obsolescence is certainly not above any of the large companies we encounter in America either. 

But that said unless you have definitive proof you should NOT make such claims as it could damage the reputation of a company that did nothing wrong. If you ever do get flying fruit flies save them, freeze them and someone might be interested in testing them to see how it happened. As other said the most likely culprit is contamination with wild flies or other flies you are culturing.


----------



## ictofan (May 13, 2009)

Kind of sort of on topic, but I bought a culture from Petco in February and have been breeding them ever since. They're doing relatively well; my rookie mistakes have yet to kill them off.

One thing that seems strange however is that some maggots have a very bright red in what I assume is their GI tract. Imagine a fat bloodworm living in only posterior half of the larvae and you'll be pretty close. Only about a dozen are affected, with no adults being unusual that I can see.

My media is brewers yeast, mashed potatoes, honey, cinnamon, powdered sugar, and water/vinegar. No significant pigment to be found, and even if there was, it's strange to me this is so isolated. Not worried yet, but I am thoroughly confused. Hopefully someone can shed some light on this.


----------

