# 95% of FF dead in the cutlure after 6 days



## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Hi everyone

I started a new ff culture on 30april and yesterday most of the ff in that culture was doing well till today as I found 95% of the ff in the culture was dead...what happen that could wipe ot 95% of ff over night? What the average life span of the Melo ff ?
The ff I use to start the new cultures are like 3-4weeks old mix from a few different cultures. 
I found some mites but not a lot of them in that culture.
The is not the first time I am facing this problem, out of 10 culture I make 2-3 will die out like that after a week.
I am also using mite paper from black jungle and I change them every 3weeks.

The media I am using is 
6parts of instant potato 
1part of brewer yeast
1part sugar
2 teaspoon of cinnamon powder
50 hot water\50 white vinegar 
A pinch of instant yeast
Keeping them at 27-28degree C. 


Thanks


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I always use the newest hatched flies I have to start my new cultures and throw out cultures at 4 weeks. Not sure if this could be why yours are dying, but it's a start.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Are you seeing larva growing in the culture or is the culture totally defunct? 

Are you stacking cultures on top of one another?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

chesney said:


> I always use the newest hatched flies I have to start my new cultures and throw out cultures at 4 weeks. Not sure if this could be why yours are dying, but it's a start.


 
Actually if you keep this up you will end up with cultures that only produce one emergence from pupae and then crash as you are genetically selecting the flies to be intolerant of later conditions in the cultures. 

Ed


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> Are you seeing larva growing in the culture or is the culture totally defunct?
> 
> Are you stacking cultures on top of one another?



Just check the culture I have seen about 50 or less larva growing in it now.
I didn't stack the culture on top of each other , but I read up some where on the internet that could it be co2 poisoning ? As I think accidentally add too much yeast to it like 80-100 grain to the culture ..and if its c02 poisoning , why would the ff die after 6 days only??

I remember on the 4 day, I added some water to the media as it was too dry... Could that affect it as well?


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

Ed said:


> Actually if you keep this up you will end up with cultures that only produce one emergence from pupae and then crash as you are genetically selecting the flies to be intolerant of later conditions in the cultures.
> 
> Ed


Hi Ed,
I have always started new cultures from ones that are about two weeks old. My cultures are still producing when I toss them out at 4 weeks. Can you elaborate on the proper way? I was under the impression that you shouldn't start new cultures from old ones because of the flies being older.


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## MzFroggie (Mar 22, 2008)

Lisa,

That happened to me awhile back! Never figured out what th issue was. Thanks fo asking this question.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

chesney said:


> Hi Ed,
> I have always started new cultures from ones that are about two weeks old. My cultures are still producing when I toss them out at 4 weeks. Can you elaborate on the proper way? I was under the impression that you shouldn't start new cultures from old ones because of the flies being older.


 
This thread should help... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/42419-genetics-ff-culturing.html 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Crazy frog said:


> Just check the culture I have seen about 50 or less larva growing in it now.
> I didn't stack the culture on top of each other , but I read up some where on the internet that could it be co2 poisoning ? As I think accidentally add too much yeast to it like 80-100 grain to the culture ..and if its c02 poisoning , why would the ff die after 6 days only??
> 
> I remember on the 4 day, I added some water to the media as it was too dry... Could that affect it as well?


 
I doubt it was CO2 poisoning as that should have also killed the larva. Although it is possible for the larva to have hatched out after the event. I use a fair bit of active yeast in my cultures (often more than you are using). 

Are you getting condensation in the cultures? 

Ed


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

my parent flies dont last too much longer than that in the new cultures, but it is longer than 6 days i would say. i usually give them several days to do their work then feed out most of them any way though. possible they have lived several days in the parent culture before use or maybe flies in older culures have shorter life spans? talking out my bum though...Ed is the expert


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I am not an expert... I just dig into things that interest me so I can understand them better... 

Ed


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## MzFroggie (Mar 22, 2008)

Sorry I meant Crazy Frog.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> I doubt it was CO2 poisoning as that should have also killed the larva. Although it is possible for the larva to have hatched out after the event. I use a fair bit of active yeast in my cultures (often more than you are using).
> 
> Are you getting condensation in the cultures?
> 
> Ed


Nope, no condensation in my cultures.
So its ok to add more instant yeast to the cultures, anyway I always get mold like greenish white stuff growing on top of my media when I use a lot of instant yeast, it that normal?


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

Just curious, what is your dry:liquid ratio? Do you do it by volume, weight, eyeball?

I've had this problem, too, in general with the high vinegar content. My problem has mostly been due to evaporation. With the high vinegar mixtures, I'd lose the culture in a heartbeat if it dried just a little bit.

I keep mine in a room with an overhead fan on high speed. To combat that problem, I:

1. Add more water to the mixture, and stir it well, instead of measuring
2. Stack the cultures (the 32-oz deli cups with the rounded bottoms leave the outer "circle" of ventilation exposed on the cup below) to reduce evaporation
3. Occasionally place an old DVD on the top culture if I think it will dry out. The hole in the DVD lets enough air in.

I can vouch for what Ed said about using the first emergence for propagation. I did that, and would gradually see cultures produce less and less. Now, I use the older "healthy" cultures for propagation. At least two generations back, or cultures that are 2+ weeks old.

And I also have problems when I add too much yeast. Try about 10 grains. I'll usually give the culture a single spray of water after I add the yeast. Probably not necessary, but it seems to make me feel good. 

Good luck,
Greg


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Crazy frog said:


> Nope, no condensation in my cultures.
> So its ok to add more instant yeast to the cultures, anyway I always get mold like greenish white stuff growing on top of my media when I use a lot of instant yeast, it that normal?


Is this what your "mold" looks like or is it slimy and flatter to the media?


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> Is this what your "mold" looks like or is it slimy and flatter to the media?



This is how the mold looks like


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

I would think that if you had a layer of that over the whole media, that it would be a problem. I'm surprised that much managed to grow with a 50/50 vinegar.

How many flies did you add when you started it?


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

GregF said:


> I would think that if you had a layer of that over the whole media, that it would be a problem. I'm surprised that much managed to grow with a 50/50 vinegar.
> 
> How many flies did you add when you started it?


I usually add 50-100 files to start a new culture . Yup I am also surprise with 50% of vinegar this much of mold can grow ... Maybe the place I am staying has very high humidity level like 70% or more..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Are you using coffee filters in your cultures or did you break up the surface of the media? 

Ed


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm not an expert by any means...not even close, but in your recipe:

-- snip --
6parts of instant potato
1part of brewer yeast
1part sugar
2 teaspoon of cinnamon powder
50 hot water\50 white vinegar
A pinch of instant yeast
-- snip --

I noticed that all of your measurements are relative, except the cinnamon. How much total media are you making? Also, I'm wondering if sprinkling some cinnamon or turmeric on top of the media would slow the mold down.

From personal experience, I've noticed that if you can hold the mold off until the larvae start "churning" the top-layer of media, then usually the mold won't get a foothold, until the culture starts to slow down.

If it becomes a real problem, you can always order some methyl paraben. If you have a small number of frogs, it will last you *long* time.

Did that culture in the picture stink?

Greg


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

That's an aweful lot of mold for 6 days. You might want to consider methyl parabem. Also, your media is quite a bit wetter than mine. If you lose that many flies over a short period, then it's either some toxin or lack of oxygen. I suppose it is possible that the yeast grew suddenly when you added more water. Yeast produces CO2 and alcohol, both of which would displace the oxygen. Also, some molds are very toxic and if it is in the genus Aspergillus or Stachybotrys, it can produce potent toxins. These molds are the primary source of toxic mold problems in buildings. In such a small unventilated container like a covered deli cup, those toxins could build up quickly to a lethal dose for the ffs.

Even if the mold isn't what caused the die off, you'll have much better production if you get it under control.


Crazy frog said:


> This is how the mold looks like


Check out this website. Scroll down for a description of Mycotoxins produced by mold.

Oops, forgot the link - http://www.toxic-black-mold-info.com/moldtypes.htm#Mycotoxins


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It isn't any of the black molds so we can rule that out right off the bat.... so it isn't A. niger or Stachybotrys. 

We can also rule out an aggressive mold as it hasn't covered all of the available surface areas.. 
Some molds do not affect production of the cultures at all.. the one I pictured above doesn't even slow down my cultures... (and I had to work to get it to appear), within a day or two of that picture the mold is churned under by the flies. The picture at the end of this post is what that culture looked like even a couple of days later. If he is adding something like coffee filters, they could be contaminated and since the maggots can't churn them under right away they could be providing a stable surface for mold growth. 

A. niger is a real problem as it significantly reduces production by over acidifying the media...but that is clearly not A. niger in his cultures. 

If you are only making a few cultures, microwaving them until they are really hot and putting the lid on them and waiting until they cool is a very easy method to prevent molding (as long as something you use to add the flies isn't contaminated) instead of trying all different kinds of additives to get it to work. 

In this case I have significant doubts that the mold is the problem... As we narrow down the options we should be able to get some reasonable options.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Ed - I see your point on the mold. So, if it's not the mold, and assuming that there is no other contamination that would produce toxic conditions, then lack of oxygen, or even temperature issues are the only other causes of sudden die off that I can think of. I once had a die off of three cultures I had made at the same time. The flies were dead the next morning. I realized that I had added quite a bit of yeast while the media was still warm, so I assumed that the yeast grew quickly and that the oxygen had been displaced sufficiently to kill them. Just as an experiment, I aired them out and added more flies without doing anything else and they did fine. The fact that the OP's flies died almost a week after they were started is perplexing to me.


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> Are you using coffee filters in your cultures or did you break up the surface of the media?
> 
> Ed


I am using coffee filter , yes I pull out the coffee filter to take a better picture and the filter got stuck with the media and I had to break the surface of the media.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Your getting some contamination from somewhere in your process. Try using just water instead of the vinegar and microwaving the cultures until they steam and then place the lids on them. (In my microwave for 3-4 cultures it is about 2 minutes (although that is too long for other's microwaves)). Take them out of the microwave and let them cool with the lid on them before adding the yeast and flies. Tap any condensation on the sides down adding the yeast and flies. 

If you are getting a crust on the top of the cultures that quickly you may want to up the water content of the media just a little and see if that changes anything. 

Ed


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

It happened again!!
Yesterday when i was checking my FF cultures , i found out 6 cultures 95% FF dead .
All the culture that had 95% dead FF was started up on 3may and all from a same culture that was first boom of FF which the culture was started on 25april.
There are not any mold yet in the 6 cultures but there ae lots of maggots in the all 6 cultures.
So should i keep the 6 cultures as there are lots of maggots??


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes keep the cultures with a lot of maggots. They are fine to use. There are a couple of possible things killing off the adults.. 

1) genetic intolerance to condtions in the culture
2) age

It is unlikely to be CO2 as that should have killed off or delayed the larva. 

Ed


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> Yes keep the cultures with a lot of maggots. They are fine to use. There are a couple of possible things killing off the adults..
> 
> 1) genetic intolerance to condtions in the culture
> 2) age
> ...


Hmm.... could be age, anyway i remember reading you posted somewhere that the life span of a (D.M) FF is around 38days , does that include its maggot stage? 
and what will the life span of a FF under 28-31 degree C?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Crazy frog said:


> Hmm.... could be age, anyway i remember reading you posted somewhere that the life span of a (D.M) FF is around 38days , does that include its maggot stage?
> and what will the life span of a FF under 28-31 degree C?


The whole life span can occur in under 30 days depending on how the genetics have been selected. The part of the life cycle that is post emergence can be shorter or longer than 14 days depending on the genetics and the temperature. 

No offense, but I'm not going to dig out the information on how your temperature affects the flies..... 


Ed


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