# Starting a dart tank in the UK



## CharlieJGoddard (Oct 6, 2015)

Hello everyone,
I've been lurking and researching for a while before making a post here. I originally saw the habisphere which got my interest in keeping dart frogs but after seeing everyone's opinions on their size, I decided something larger would be better. I wanted to convert a fish tank instead of use a vivarium with the two opening doors on the front because I prefer the clear front look.

*My first question* before I go further is do the more experienced keepers think this would be a suitable tank to for a beginner?

http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/marina-54-tank-aquarium-kit-(in-store-only)

It's 54 litres, which equals 14 US gallons, I read that 10 gallons per frog is appropriate but just for a single pair be ok? They also do this tank in an 80 litres which is 21 gallons - I'm not wanting a 'desktop' display but space is limited.

*Second question* is how many people are from the UK on here? Where do you all get supplies and frogs from? Is there a big community of frog keepers here or is it mostly the US?

*Third Question* Is that I've had and read several contradicting opinions on set ups regarding backgrounds, using clay over expanding foam and vice versa, and then again with false bottom over clay balls and vice versa. Is there a definitive answer here for each or is it hear everyone's opinions then make your own? Originally I thought using a clay background would be horrible messy and heavy and cause a mudslide over time - but seems more natural? But then the foam background seems much lighter and lasts a lot longer?
Again the same weight issue with the clay balls but they would surely be better as a natural filter? I don't want a water feature in my tank as I worry it would just be more trouble than its worth for a beginner tank and take up too much room. I was going to mist the tank with a bottle by hand every morning and evening.

*Also* I only wanted to keep a pair (if that's all space allows) But I'm open to which species would be most appropriate in others opinions for the tank and considering I am a beginner. I'm terrified of getting this wrong and losing a frog because of it, but the species I mostly like are:
Dendrobates Leucomelas
Dendrobates Azureus
Phyllobates terribilis
Dendrobates tinctorius
(I also really like White's tree frogs but I guess that'll be for another day!)
Which do you think would be best to start with?

*Finally* I think once these bits are cleared up and people say the tank is suitable for frogs (With a mesh attached to the underside of the lid to protect the frogs from accessing the top and the light) I think I'm ready to go ahead and start. I'm in no rush to get the frogs and I want to get this right so I appreciate any help and constructive criticism as I go (I'll try and keep this thread as a log of what I'm doing) 

Thanks for reading and I look forward to hearing back and getting started and being part of the forum 
Charlie


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Welcome. I know there are some froggers in the UK who would be happy to help you. I am reminded of the great Stu.
I'm not clever to see your link, but I think it is better if you buy a glass terrarium, that here in Europe you can find for cheap.
As for the third question, there are various techniques. I use GStuff, with some cork bark or pieces of Xaxim.
This is an helpful link - maybe you already know it.

Dartfrog - Everything for the Amphibian Keeper


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

A 14 gallon should be big enough for a pair of most frogs, except maybe trivittata. D. Auratus are another good species, as are e. Anthonyi . My first frogs were thumbnails, r. Ventrimaculata, which were a breeding pair I kept in a 10 gallon tank. I'd be especially careful to make sure the lid fits tightly. Frogs can escape through smaller spaces than you'd think.


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

As for the backgrounds, it's more of a choose your own adventure deal. Personally I use clay backgrounds, and it's always worked well for me.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

Just like any tank bigger is always better, I have 2 10gal verts which are smaller than your talking with one housing a pair of O.Pumullio Man Creek and the other being empty as a temp house if needed, both are planted. I used cork and great stuff / silicone with tree fern meshed in as backgrounds. my man creeks are content but I wish I had a bigger tank, always bigger lol I think you would be fine depending on the frog and what materials your using. Frogs are like fish, there is nothing cheap about it so use good judgement ahead of time and study and read and study some more with every build, eventually the cost goes down but initially its expensive. My first build was an 18×18x24 exo terra for 4 vittatus and after 4 years Ive had one die the rest are doing great and the tank grew in nicely as well.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

I prefer false bottoms, that original tank I used hydroballs and its good but my water pump has a hard time, its old enough now that plants are growing everywhere and root systems are into the hydrosphere so the water is clear and frogs regularly frequent the water feature


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## CharlieJGoddard (Oct 6, 2015)

Thanks for the quick and helpful replies guys!
I'm going to go ahead and get this tank to begin my froggy learning experience!

Thanks for the link rigel10! Has anyone got any experience from this place before?

I think I'll go for a false bottom with GS background as it'll make the whole thing lighter, on the off chance I would nee to move it! 

greenthumbs, I was going to get a metal/mesh fine grid to put on the underside of the lid between the light and tank, I was originally thinking to silicone it into place but then if I need to change the bulb that would be a pain to pull out and reapply so I'll rethink this for a while!

Wusserton, I'm experienced in fish and work in a shop that sells fish and I always tell people a hamster would be easier for their kids! If I want a bigger tank after I supposed I would have to cross that bridge as it comes! As for now it's all I have space for so I'm glad a pair would fit comfortably in there! On a fish forum we call it MTS - multiple tank sydrome... I hope it doesn't happen here too! (Or maybe I do!)

I'll keep updating this a I go


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It happens, it is better you know before you start.
I started with one viv; they were two in a month, four in four months, etc.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

Yeah its kind of like Tattoos, once you get one you suddenly find yourself needing a half dozen and looking beyond lol


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## CharlieJGoddard (Oct 6, 2015)

Haven't done a lot for this tank as I've had other things going on but I do Have the tank in position and the eggcrate for the false bottom!
Does it matter which kind of expanding foam I use? Does it have to be great stuff? They also seem to do so many... Is there a certain one I should be using? Thanks again!


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## Conners (Aug 11, 2015)

CharlieJGoddard said:


> Thanks for the quick and helpful replies guys!
> I'm going to go ahead and get this tank to begin my froggy learning experience!
> 
> Thanks for the link rigel10! Has anyone got any experience from this place before?
> ...


Hi Charlie, 

I'm also from the UK, and relatively new to poison frogs.

I have ordered fruit flies, springtails, tropical woodlice and equipment from dartfrog.co.uk a number of times and have found them excellent - things arrive very quickly and are well packaged etc.

Don't know if you're anywhere near Southampton, but there is an excellent shop there called Grange Reptiles which has a dart frog room and a full range of equipment. All of my frogs came from there. 

Personally I use Exo Terras, with Hydroballs as the drainage layer, then a mesh beneath a layer of jungle soil. 

I haven't used Great Stuff - I use polystyrene and cork backgrounds.

A few rough and ready observations from my limited experience:

- I had a working waterfall in my first setup, but the water collection wasn't 100% efficient, so I had to keep topping up the reservoir more and more frequently to prevent the pump running dry, until it ceased to be worth it. I haven't bothered with water features since.

- Getting the plants right seems to be really important. They are very important to the frogs who spend large amounts of time hanging out in the leaves and axels of bromeliads.

- Really important to have a deep leaf litter so that the frogs don't have to move around on bare soil, as I think it can irritate them. I started with a sprinkling of bamboo leaves, but it wasn't sufficient. Now I have several inches of beech leaves.

- I started with D.tinctorius "azureus" and I think they're amazing. They're really bold and active and they've grown like weeds.

- I think 14 US gallons might be a bit small for D.tinctorius? They get bigger than I appreciated. Grange Reptiles has a pair of "Awerapes" that are huge. Although some morphs are naturally occuring dwarves, such as "Lorenzo".

Best wishes, 

Conners


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## CharlieJGoddard (Oct 6, 2015)

Hey Conners,
I have heard about this shop from someone in person before but I am yet to go! It's about an hour and a half away from where I live but I'll definitely pay a visit soon when I have the time!

I've seen set ups with the cork bark backing but to me it seems to look warped and bent and not flush against the glass, which could've just been because it was put together badly but it put me right off - do you disguise your polystyrene the same way people disguise the foam with silicone and coco fibre?

I'm scared of using any kind of foam or material that could leech chemicals into the tank or something like that!


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## CharlieJGoddard (Oct 6, 2015)

Forgot to add that I've decided against doing any kind of water feature as most people have said they're more trouble than they're worth if you're not 100% on what you're doing!

And I'll probably order from that website when the time comes!

I'm in no rush to get this right so the plants will be perfect before any frog is added! :grin:

It's nice to meet a fellow UK newbie!


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