# One of my frogs drowned and I am devastated



## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

I got my frogs (D. auratus "El cope")
three months ago and have been a happy keeper ever since. In the beginning they were very active but after a few days they mostly hid in the back of the enclosure where they dug a little hide and occasionally I would see one of them hopping around or taking a bath in the water bowl.
The breeder I got them from recommended to put a small water bowl into the enclosure (the one seen in the picture, it was maybe half full with water) to make sure they can regulate moisture if humidity dropw too low. This is an advice I have also seen in the forum. I knew that they are not good swimmers and that's why I was careful to have a bowl where they could easily reach the boarder when standing on their legs. It had like a thumb of water in it and I never had the feeling that it was hard for the frogs to jump out.
Today when I came home from work I noticed one frog floating in the bowl not moving. I immediately took him out but it was already too late. He seemed completely healthy not malnourished, not hurt but he still drowned. I am absolutely devastated about it. I thought I knew what I was doing and I am sure that his head should have been out of the water if he sat on his hindlegs. Even dead the water barely even covered him.
I checked my other frogs and they also all seem healthy. Very reactive, well fed and moving a lot.
The colouration of the drowned frog seems a bit muted in comparison but that might just be because he is dead.
For the moment I pulled out the water bowl and I guess I Have to think about a solution that's even more frog proof or leave it out all together.
I don't really know why I post this story here, if I want advice or inform others that even if you think the water is not too deep it still might be. Maybe I just want to get this off of my chest. For the moment I pulled out the water bowl and am unsure if I will put a smaller bowl in or get rid of it completly.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I am very sorry for your loss. 

My recommendation is to *not* put the water dish back in. Frogs don't need a water dish if the tank is set up correctly. None of my non-ranitomeya tanks have a water dish, or open water source in them at all (my Ranitomeya tanks only have them to facilitate tadpole disposition)


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I am very sorry for your loss.
> 
> My recommendation is to *not* put the water dish back in. Frogs don't need a water dish if the tank is set up correctly. None of my non-ranitomeya tanks have a water dish, or open water source in them at all (my Ranitomeya tanks only have them to facilitate tadpole disposition)


Thank you for your condolences.
I just wonder if there was an underlaying issues with the frog or if it really was just a freak accident. I never really had the feeling that they had problems getting out of the dish. I guess in the future I will leave out the bowl and maybe up the misting time a bit to make sure that they still have enough water to absorb through their skin.


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## froggy_guy (Oct 6, 2021)

I'm glad you joined the dendroboard community, coming over from reddit. Hopefully it was just a freak accident... sorry for your loss once again.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Sorry for your loss. It's tough to lose a frog. I just found out I had one escape sometime in the past week. I found her on the floor and I was heartbroken.

Water dishes/features/ponds are more often than not detrimental to dart frogs. Ranitomeya and oophaga need water sites to deposit but we're talking brom axles and film canisters. Anything deep enough for them to be submerged in is dangerous. 

Again, sorry for you loss. Glad to hear you'll be removing the water dish. I don't know how much you're misting, but I only mist 3x a day for 30 seconds each. And honestly that's way more than they need. I could mist once at midday and have the tank humid enough for them. You may not need to increase your mistings at all. Some photos of your tank and your misting schedule might help us give you more advice with this.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I'm really sorry that you lost your frog. He looked like a very attractive auratus. In my opinion, that frog looks bloated, and I would suspect that there were other issues ongoing before the frog died in the water. If you can afford it, and it's still within the first 24 hours, a necropsy would be very useful. You can contact your vet for more information, and until you can get the frog to them, keep it in the refrigerator- not the freezer.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

I'd say it is doubtful that the frog drowned in that small amount of water. I would think likely it is something else going on and that's where it ended up.

That said, the water dish is not necessary in a proper setup. If you still want to provide one, try a small clay saucer instead of a dish like that.


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

JasonE said:


> Sorry for your loss. It's tough to lose a frog. I just found out I had one escape sometime in the past week. I found her on the floor and I was heartbroken.
> 
> Water dishes/features/ponds are more often than not detrimental to dart frogs. Ranitomeya and oophaga need water sites to deposit but we're talking brom axles and film canisters. Anything deep enough for them to be submerged in is dangerous.
> 
> Again, sorry for you loss. Glad to hear you'll be removing the water dish. I don't know how much you're misting, but I only mist 3x a day for 30 seconds each. And honestly that's way more than they need. I could mist once at midday and have the tank humid enough for them. You may not need to increase your mistings at all. Some photos of your tank and your misting schedule might help us give you more advice with this.


Thank you and also sorry for your loss. I can understand how you feel. I really didn't have them for such a long time but seeing him float there made my guts twist.

After all the replies I've got here I really think I will try it without a water bowl for the time being. Currently I am misting every 8 hours for 20 seconds at atime. The humidity ususally stays above 70%. The tank is a 18x18x24 ExoTerra with a glass lid. I also have 2 fans to assist with ventilation and cooling in the summer but have only one of them running atm. The first picture is shortly after setting the tank up (August), but the lights are already turned off for the day and I don't have another picture of the complete tank at the ready. The second picture is from October.


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Woodswalker said:


> I'm really sorry that you lost your frog. He looked like a very attractive auratus. In my opinion, that frog looks bloated, and I would suspect that there were other issues ongoing before the frog died in the water. If you can afford it, and it's still within the first 24 hours, a necropsy would be very useful. You can contact your vet for more information, and until you can get the frog to them, keep it in the refrigerator- not the freezer.


Thank you. He really was a pretty frog. He was on rounder side when I got him (in comparison to the other three). There was also something grey in his mouth when I pulled him out of the water, but I assumed that its probably the tongue. I put him in the fridge and will look if there is a exotic vet available in my area.
After finding him checked up on my other frogs and they looked all very healthy - at least to me. Very reactive, and moving to keep me in their field of view when turning the container to check them from all sides. But I guess if there was something like a bacteria infection it can't hurt to have the dead frog checked. Is impection a common issue in dart frogs?


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

I have read that dart frogs are not good swimmers. Has anyone seen a dart frog swim? They seem like pretty good swimmers to me. Not as good as a leopard frog but, still. It was pretty standard keep water areas in our frog tanks a long time ago. 

I think most of the time dart frogs get drowned by competing frogs while wrestling, get stuck in poorly designed water areas that do not have easy ways out, or have other issues that cause them to drown. A healthy frog most likely will not just drowned in a water dish.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

lot of pics of bloated frogs on the interwebz lately. That dead frog looks like it may have been....


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## Waking in nature (Nov 28, 2021)

Xardas Damon said:


> I got my frogs (D. auratus "El cope")
> three months ago and have been a happy keeper ever since. In the beginning they were very active but after a few days they mostly hid in the back of the enclosure where they dug a little hide and occasionally I would see one of them hopping around or taking a bath in the water bowl.
> The breeder I got them from recommended to put a small water bowl into the enclosure (the one seen in the picture, it was maybe half full with water) to make sure they can regulate moisture if humidity dropw too low. This is an advice I have also seen in the forum. I knew that they are not good swimmers and that's why I was careful to have a bowl where they could easily reach the boarder when standing on their legs. It had like a thumb of water in it and I never had the feeling that it was hard for the frogs to jump out.
> Today when I came home from work I noticed one frog floating in the bowl not moving. I immediately took him out but it was already too late. He seemed completely healthy not malnourished, not hurt but he still drowned. I am absolutely devastated about it. I thought I knew what I was doing and I am sure that his head should have been out of the water if he sat on his hindlegs. Even dead the water barely even covered him.
> ...


I am sorry for your loss Im sure you were doing everyting right. To solve the problem you should replace the water bowl with a small misting system I know there very expensive but Its worth it.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Philsuma said:


> lot of pics of bloated frogs on the interwebz lately. That dead frog looks like it may have been....


I was thinking the same.

Sorry for your loss @The op, I think your frog dying points in the direction of underlaying issues which is a red flag for your other frogs aswell.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

bulbophyllum said:


> Has anyone seen a dart frog swim?


Before I had frog losses related to a water feature that I subsequently removed, I learned that _R. sirensis _swim pretty well. 

Until they get past the substrate barrier and into the Matala mat, that is, at which point they get stuck and die. That's a big issue with water features and other such unnecessary environmental complications: even if frogs can swim, captive conditions force boneheaded behaviors that need to be prevented by not offering the opportunities for those behaviors. 



Xardas Damon said:


> maybe up the misting time a bit to make sure that they still have enough water to absorb through their skin.


Yes, if they were dug in and hiding they may have been lacking moisture in the viv. Given your entirely adequate misting schedule, I'd suspect that the fan-forced ventilation may be causing a problem. Exos are nice in that passive ventilation works well if a small (2" or so minimum, though I run 50% screen much of the year) vent is left in the back -- getting some differently-sized pieces of plexiglass to lay on top of the screen makes it easy to adjust ventilation in small increments as needed.


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Waking in nature said:


> I am sorry for your loss Im sure you were doing everyting right. To solve the problem you should replace the water bowl with a small misting system I know there very expensive but Its worth it.


I have a misting system running since I got the frogs. I spray 3 times daily for 20 seconds.


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Before I had frog losses related to a water feature that I subsequently removed, I learned that _R. sirensis _swim pretty well.
> 
> Until they get past the substrate barrier and into the Matala mat, that is, at which point they get stuck and die. That's a big issue with water features and other such unnecessary environmental complications: even if frogs can swim, captive conditions force boneheaded behaviors that need to be prevented by not offering the opportunities for those behaviors.
> 
> ...


I have the top covered with 2 glass plates. The one under the lamp doesn't have a large brim, the one in the back has a 1 cm edge.
I have put in the fans mostly for summer when the temperature in the tank reached upwards of 27°C easily.
With hiding I meant that they are mostly sitting in a tunnel between the backdrop and the substrate and not in the coconut huts I provided.


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Tijl said:


> I was thinking the same.
> 
> Sorry for your loss @The op, I think your frog dying points in the direction of underlaying issues which is a red flag for your other frogs aswell.


Since some people pointed towards bloating in the dead frog I will attach pics of the other frogs. Do they in your opinion look healthy?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Xardas Damon said:


> View attachment 303506
> 
> View attachment 303505
> 
> ...


The photo's don't show enough detail for my eye, maybe @Johanovich is of better help here.

I can say basing health only on sight by photo's is not a good idea. Also pullong the frog outside their tank might put them into even more stress if there is something wrong with their setup.
So you might want to send a fecies sample to a vet to make sure they are realy 'healthy'.

Can you post a photo of the setup you keep the frogs in?


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Tijl said:


> The photo's don't show enough detail for my eye, maybe @Johanovich is of better help here.
> 
> I can say basing health only on sight by photo's is not a good idea. Also pullong the frog outside their tank might put them into even more stress if there is something wrong with their setup.
> So you might want to send a fecies sample to a vet to make sure they are realy 'healthy'.
> ...


I usually never pull them out of their tank. Just did it after finding the dead frog to monitor their health and put them back in afterwards. Sadly I don't have better pictures then the ones provided. 
I will sent the dead frog to an institute for a necropsy and wait for the results. If it had parasites I guess the necropsy would find them. 
There is a picture of my setup further upwards in the thread.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Xardas Damon said:


> I usually never pull them out of their tank. Just did it after finding the dead frog to monitor their health and put them back in afterwards. Sadly I don't have better pictures then the ones provided.
> I will sent the dead frog to an institute for a necropsy and wait for the results. If it had parasites I guess the necropsy would find them.
> There is a picture of my setup further upwards in the thread.


Great idea. 
But I still recommend to also send a fresh fecies sample to a vet.

Missed that, py phone did not load the photo's but my pc did 👍


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

Those pictures are hard to analyze. The first of the three pictures of live frogs looks dramatically obese or bloated. The others look fine, but it is hard to tell.


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Eurydactylodes said:


> Those pictures are hard to analyze. The first picture looks like he is dramatically obese or bloated. The others make him look fine.


The very first picture in the threat is of the deceased frogs, the other three are pictures of his tankmates.


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

Xardas Damon said:


> The very first picture in the threat is of the deceased frogs, the other three are pictures of his tankmates.


 I was referring to the first of the three images of live frogs. I will edit my post to make that more clear


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

#1 of 3 this is the one that looked bloated/obese to you.
























#2 of 3
























#3 of 3



Eurydactylodes said:


> I was referring to the first of the three images of live frogs. I will edit my post to make that more clear


Added some more pictures for clarity. All of them were taken yesterday.


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

Xardas Damon said:


> View attachment 303512
> 
> View attachment 303511
> 
> ...


It may just be the picture.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Likely the corpse took on water after death. Frogs' skin is 100% permeable to water, and in the absence of active homeostasis mechanisms will absorb water until osmotic balance is reached.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Likely the corpse took on water after death. Frogs' skin is 100% permeable to water, and in the absence of active homeostasis mechanisms will absorb water until osmotic balance is reached.


Similar to if you have ever seen a dead frog in the wild - they are very bloated if they are in the water.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

If your husbandry is in line your other frogs are probably fine. If your are not doing something crazy wrong with the enclosure and dusting with Repashy Ca + it was probably a fluke and will not happen again.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

1) Dendrobatids all swim well... There is a consistent myth that they frequently drown due to a lack of necropsies and other diagnostics regarding deaths. I've seen dendrobatids bloated in bomeliasd axils and film canisters with the description of drowning by the hobby. I've also seen it on very wet substrates... Deaths in some of the necropsies ranged from infections to impaction. 

2) frogs that are ill and have issues osmoregulating may soak in the bowls so if the frog dies there it gets conflated as automatically drowning as the cause of death. 

3) bloating in the water will occur regardless of cause of death as dead frogs cannot prevent the influx of water along the osmotic gradient, decomposition also occurs rather rapidly and the break down of tissues can speed the uptake of water causing the swelling. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Ed said:


> 1) Dendrobatids all swim well... There is a consistent myth that they frequently drown due to a lack of necropsies and other diagnostics regarding deaths. I've seen dendrobatids bloated in bomeliasd axils and film canisters with the description of drowning by the hobby. I've also seen it on very wet substrates... Deaths in some of the necropsies ranged from infections to impaction.
> 
> 2) frogs that are ill and have issues osmoregulating may soak in the bowls so if the frog dies there it gets conflated as automatically drowning as the cause of death.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the information.
I sent the frog in yesterday to have a necropsy performed. Results are expected within 5-10 days. I can update if wanted.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Xardas Damon said:


> Thank you for the information.
> I sent the frog in yesterday to have a necropsy performed. Results are expected within 5-10 days. I can update if wanted.


Out of curiosity, what is the cost of a necropsy?


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

fredk said:


> Out of curiosity, what is the cost of a necropsy?


It depends what they need to do to find out the course of death. Dissection and simple Histology was estimated at roughly 70€. If they also have to send in samples for bacterial or virological Tests that would be an additional 70-100€. 
In my case they will always do the first part and you can tell them if you want additional testing to be done if needed and what's the maximum you are willing to pay.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Xardas Damon said:


> It depends what they need to do to find out the course of death. Dissection and simple Histology was estimated at roughly 70€. If they also have to send in samples for bacterial or virological Tests that would be an additional 70-100€.
> In my case they will always do the first part and you can tell them if you want additional testing to be done if needed and what's the maximum you are willing to pay.


Thanks. That is in line with what I was thinking. Vet's can become expensive very quickly.


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

fredk said:


> Thanks. That is in line with what I was thinking. Vet's can become expensive very quickly.


That's true. In the end I decided it would be worth it, just to find out if there is an underlaying issue and I need to help my other frogs.


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## kennyb123 (Oct 20, 2019)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I am very sorry for your loss.
> 
> My recommendation is to *not* put the water dish back in. Frogs don't need a water dish if the tank is set up correctly. None of my non-ranitomeya tanks have a water dish, or open water source in them at all (my Ranitomeya tanks only have them to facilitate tadpole disposition)


What do you use as a deposition site for your ranitomeya tanks?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

kennyb123 said:


> What do you use as a deposition site for your ranitomeya tanks?


Film canisters filled up about 1/4 of the way


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Fwiw, I always include a water pond in every vivarium I build. The main reason is so that if I ever need to remove water from the drainage layer, I'm able to. But in every pond I put about an inch of Ca bearing clay as a bottom substrate that also gets worked into the open cell polyurethane foam bank and then covered with aquarium plant substrate with Java moss and a few live oak litter on top. So in effect at most I wind up with a wading pool with tannins. In any temporary tanks I've used small terracotta saucers of maybe 3" diameter with water that usually slowly leaches into the substrate and again only amount to wading pools. But I do often find a frog or 2 enjoying an occasional soak from time to time and I suspect it may be a source of Ca ions if they can be absorbed through the skin. I figure the frogs can regulate their hydration needs that way and know when they could use a little extra hydration rather than relying up on my misting schedule. When I used to allow a deeper pool I wasn't impressed by their swimming abilities so now they no longer have the option for a swim. A soak is the most they're afforded.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Calcium humates and tannates are highly insoluble. If your using high calcium clays you need to watch the pH particularly early in the life of the cage as these clays can push pH over 8.5. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Today I got the result from the necropsy. Since it is in German I will do my best to translate the results, but I am not an expert on the topic.

The cause of death was determined to be acute heart- and circulatory failure of uncertain origin. They didn't find any degenerative, infectious or neoplastic changes. Tests for fungal infections came back negative.

In the end it seems to have been a freak incident but I am happy that I don't have to worry about my other frogs. Since I followed the advice received here and turned off the ventilation they are more outgoing and active, so low humidity definetly seemed to be an issue. They are still shy and tend to go into hiding when they notice me sitting in front of the enclosure, but they use the space provided and seem to love the coconut hide in the higher parts of the enclosure.
Thanks for all the answers I have received here!


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Xardas Damon said:


> ...
> 
> The cause of death was determined to be acute heart- and circulatory failure of uncertain origin. They didn't find any degenerative, infectious or neoplastic changes. Tests for fungal infections came back negative.
> 
> ...


Hmm, did your frog smoke or drink?
.
.
.
Sorry, very bad joke.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Ed said:


> Calcium humates and tannates are highly insoluble. If your using high calcium clays you need to watch the pH particularly early in the life of the cage as these clays can push pH over 8.5.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Good to know. I'll have to check my pH. I wasn't aware of that.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Ed said:


> Calcium humates and tannates are highly insoluble. If your using high calcium clays you need to watch the pH particularly early in the life of the cage as these clays can push pH over 8.5.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Wait, what exactly are calcium humates and how do they form? C9H8CaO4, hmm... apparently there are a bunch of Chinese companies selling this stuff for agricultural use, but their explanation of what it does is quite literally lost in translation.

So a calcium ion sidles up to some humic acid and says "hey babe, wanna see my tats?" They get together, ditch a carbon here a hydrogen there and a random oxygen and we get calcium humate?

I probably shouldn't try to figure out chemistry stuff at 2:00am.


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