# Can you keep different species of isopods together in one viv?



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

For instance, if I wanted dwarf whites, dairy cows, etc all in the same viv? I wasn't sure how that worked exactly.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Nepenthesx said:


> For instance, if I wanted dwarf whites, dairy cows, etc all in the same viv? I wasn't sure how that worked exactly.


Generally speaking, if you're keeping dart frogs in a tank you likely only want to have dwarf Isopods in the tank. The larger Isopods could predate upon frogs / eggs. I've fed my Porcellio laevis isopods dehydrated minnows and they devoured them. There's no way I'd put larger Isopods in with my frogs (I keep 20+ species of Isopods, as an FYI).


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Generally speaking, if you're keeping dart frogs in a tank you likely only want to have dwarf Isopods in the tank. The larger Isopods could predate upon frogs / eggs. I've fed my Porcellio laevis isopods dehydrated minnows and they devoured them. There's no way I'd put larger Isopods in with my frogs (I keep 20+ species of Isopods, as an FYI).


Oh I had no idea the big ones could hurt the frogs! Thank you for letting me know


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I use a mix of three dwarf isopod species (plus various springtails) in all my new builds, and as supplemental feeders. It can be very beneficial to have multiple types, as their environmental preferences may vary slightly, making them more available throughout various substrate niches.


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## geginn64 (Jun 24, 2020)

I've read that the dwarf whites can be prolific breeders, once established. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Nepenthesx said:


> Oh I had no idea the big ones could hurt the frogs! Thank you for letting me know


I'll emphasize the word COULD hurt the frogs. But, if there's an easy way to avoid a risk, I would. In this case it can be completely avoided by only using dwarf white isopods. (And springtails, springtails are great to have).


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

How interesting, so the dwarf varieties can all be kept together? I have a culture of dwarf whites going right now. It's going a little slow so I bought extras from different vendors to ensure I get a good mix genetically and have plenty of them. I already seeded my viv with them but the first cultures I got the isopods were all infants no where near breeding age. I got a third culture that looked much better and had a mix of babies and adults, plus I have two more orders of isopods coming in the mail and should be here tomorrow. I intend to put one of those in my viv and one in my sterilite bin.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Nepenthesx said:


> How interesting, so the dwarf varieties can all be kept together? I have a culture of dwarf whites going right now. It's going a little slow so I bought extras from different vendors to ensure I get a good mix genetically and have plenty of them. I already seeded my viv with them but the first cultures I got the isopods were all infants no where near breeding age. I got a third culture that looked much better and had a mix of babies and adults, plus I have two more orders of isopods coming in the mail and should be here tomorrow. I intend to put one of those in my viv and one in my sterilite bin.


You seem to have gotten bit by the Isopod Bug... Lol.

You can try mixing the Isopods in your vivarium but you're generally not going to get any benefit out of it. You'll rarely see Isopods above the leaf litter layer as the dwarf whites are rarely going to be out during the day.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> You seem to have gotten bit by the Isopod Bug... Lol.
> 
> You can try mixing the Isopods in your vivarium but you're generally not going to get any benefit out of it. You'll rarely see Isopods above the leaf litter layer as the dwarf whites are rarely going to be out during the day.


Hahaha uh oh a new hobby starts! They are just really neat little guys. I've been watching youtube and found a channel called "Snake Discovery" and the woman in the videos and her husband have soooo many cool isopods! My favorite ones are the orange ones (doesn't particularly matter which orange, I just love orange in every way LOL) but I can't remember the species or genus off the top of my head. Such little cuties.

Is it true that they are closely related to crabs? I've heard that in a couple different places.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Mixing them in the frog viv is cool- like Dane said, they might have minor differences in environmental preference.

I would keep “mother cultures” pure though, as one type can outcompete another in a densely populated culture. I had a mix of dwarf white and dwarf purple that became all white, while I can still find both in the vivs.


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## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

I like to use multiple species of isopods myself. While I do not believe most isopods would ever be a problem for a healthy, lively frog, they could be a problem for other isopods depending on the species. Certain species may outcompete the other and long term you may come down to only one surviving species of isopods in the tank. I choose species that occupy different niches in the substrate. I do not know anything about the dairy cows you mentioned, but I combine the powder blue isopods with the dwarf whites. Dwarf whites tend to occupy the inner depths of the substrate a majority of the time and I almost never see them - I question how many the frogs actually are able to find and eat. But the powder blues stay right on top of the substrate, amongst the leaf litter. Compare this to the powder oranges that occupy both niches at once. Powder oranges could potentially outcompete the dwarf whites.

I do also like the idea of having a species that is slightly larger than the dart frog can eat because this way the adult isopods can continue producing babies (that the frogs can eat) without being extirpated by the frogs' endless appetite.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tinc Tank said:


> Dwarf whites tend to occupy the inner depths of the substrate a majority of the time and I almost never see them - I question how many the frogs actually are able to find and eat.


I recently removed the adult thumbs from a viv in anticipation of tearing it down -- there were a couple new metamorphs in there that needed a couple months growth before I was comfortable pulling them. In those months, the dwarf white isopod population increased noticeably, with isos very visible on the surface (as they often are in mother cultures). So, they do apparently get eaten quite a bit, at least by adult imitators.



Nepenthesx said:


> Is it true that they are closely related to crabs?


Isopoda (isopods) is an order in the class Malacostraca (the crabs, shrimp, and isopods). For comparison, horses and mice are both related in the same way, since they're both members of the class Mammalia.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I recently removed the adult thumbs from a viv in anticipation of tearing it down -- there were a couple new metamorphs in there that needed a couple months growth before I was comfortable pulling them. In those months, the dwarf white isopod population increased noticeably, with isos very visible on the surface (as they often are in mother cultures). So, they do apparently get eaten quite a bit, at least by adult imitators.
> 
> 
> 
> Isopoda (isopods) is an order in the class Malacostraca (the crabs, shrimp, and isopods). For comparison, horses and mice are both related in the same way, since they're both members of the class Mammalia.


Ohhhh I see! That makes sense to me. Thank you very much


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> (I keep 20+ species of Isopods, as an FYI).


Do you have any photos of your isopod setups? I've been wanting some zebras for a while and Josh's Frogs has them back in stock, so I bought some on impulse. And then some dairy cows because they were there too. 🙃 So I guess I caught the isopod bug too, and I'm looking for ideas on how to display them now lol (I have containers, substrate, leaf litter, etc. for temporary housing but now get to plan the long-term solution)


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

crbonade said:


> Do you have any photos of your isopod setups? I've been wanting some zebras for a while and Josh's Frogs has them back in stock, so I bought some on impulse. And then some dairy cows because they were there too. 🙃 So I guess I caught the isopod bug too, and I'm looking for ideas on how to display them now lol (I have containers, substrate, leaf litter, etc. for temporary housing but now get to plan the long-term solution)


I don't do mine in displays. 

Here are some pictures and the care guide I wrote for Isopods.

Fishingguy12345's isopod caresheet


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I don't do mine in displays.
> 
> Here are some pictures and the care guide I wrote for Isopods.
> 
> Fishingguy12345's isopod caresheet


Thanks!


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## HollyB83 (Nov 8, 2020)

Nepenthesx said:


> For instance, if I wanted dwarf whites, dairy cows, etc all in the same viv? I wasn't sure how that worked exactly.


I house Dwarf whites with Porcellio laevis (Dairy Cows) and they both appear to be doing well! Dairy cows tend to occupy the upper area of the vivarium & I see them from time to time during my morning misting. As long as your frogs are healthy, they should be fine with larger isopod species. Be sure to appropriately feed/house your isopods in the tank and you should be fine! Dairy cows do need a bit more protein in their diets, but you can always offer a bug meal for them.


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## HollyB83 (Nov 8, 2020)

HollyB83 said:


> I house Dwarf whites with Porcellio laevis (Dairy Cows) and they both appear to be doing well! Dairy cows tend to occupy the upper area of the vivarium & I see them from time to time during my morning misting. As long as your frogs are healthy, they should be fine with larger isopod species. Be sure to appropriately feed/house your isopods in the tank and you should be fine! Dairy cows do need a bit more protein in their diets, but you can always offer a bug meal for them.


Sorry, upper area as in upper soil, not the top of the tank.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

I guess another question while we are on the topic of isopods, since they eat other bugs do they harm springtails at all or do they live very peacefully together? I wondered if the springtails just reproduce quick enough to cover what gets eaten by the isopods or if the isopods don't bother with them at all?

Thank you all for your assistance and advice, it's beyond helpful to be able to get assistance from this great community


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

HollyB83 said:


> I house Dwarf whites with Porcellio laevis (Dairy Cows) and they both appear to be doing well! Dairy cows tend to occupy the upper area of the vivarium & I see them from time to time during my morning misting. As long as your frogs are healthy, they *should* be fine with larger isopod species. Be sure to appropriately feed/house your isopods in the tank and you *should* be fine! Dairy cows do need a bit more protein in their diets, but you can always offer a bug meal for them.


I'm going to bold the number of times you've said "should" in this response. 

In my opinion, this is dangerous advice. There is virtually no benefit from using Porcellio laevis with dart frogs. The frogs will not produce enough waste to keep these large, hungry Isopods content.

I prefer not to take unnecessary and pointless risks with my frogs.


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## HollyB83 (Nov 8, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I'm going to bold the number of times you've said "should" in this response.
> 
> In my opinion, this is dangerous advice. There is virtually no benefit from using Porcellio laevis with dart frogs. The frogs will not produce enough waste to keep these large, hungry Isopods content.
> 
> I prefer not to take unnecessary and pointless risks with my frogs.


Totally, I get where you're coming from, but truly, how many people have reported isopods eating their frogs? If your frog is being eaten by isopods, I would argue that your frog is likely sick in some way that it can't get away from the bugs. A benefit could just be aesthetics, but just because its something that has worked for others doesn't mean it'll work for everyone. Just posting about my experience  If it's a possibility that makes you uncomfortable, there are always plenty of other species to house with dart frogs!


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

HollyB83 said:


> Totally, I get where you're coming from, but truly, how many people have reported isopods eating their frogs? If your frog is being eaten by isopods, I would argue that your frog is likely sick in some way that it can't get away from the bugs.


I can speak from experience that at least P. scaber will actively locate and eat frog eggs. That's enough reason for me to never use them in another dart tank.


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## Liquidfluidity (Jun 1, 2021)

Just throwing this out there for you that want to keep "clean" iso lines - wouldn't any of the same genus hybridize? Then the second part of this question would be - can different genus be kept together without fear of cross breeding? Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack.....


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Liquidfluidity said:


> Just throwing this out there for you that want to keep "clean" iso lines - wouldn't any of the same genus hybridize? Then the second part of this question would be - can different genus be kept together without fear of cross breeding? Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack.....


No one has talked about cross breeding in this thread. We've only been discussing the impact that different Isopod species may have on the intended "feature" animals in the tank (in this case, dart frogs).


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## Liquidfluidity (Jun 1, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> No one has talked about cross breeding in this thread. We've only been discussing the impact that different Isopod species may have on the intended "feature" animals in the tank (in this case, dart frogs).


Definitely understand that and am sorry to have interjected....

As for keeping some of the larger species, I do agree about the larger types creating "possible" health risks. This is also debated when keeping other animals that utilize micro fauna, especially iospods. To me it's not worth the risk. In the enclosures that I currently have set up, I only use the dwarf whites and purples.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Liquidfluidity said:


> Just throwing this out there for you that want to keep "clean" iso lines - wouldn't any of the same genus hybridize? Then the second part of this question would be - can different genus be kept together without fear of cross breeding? Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack.....


A relevant point is that once isos are in a frog viv, they should be considered as dead to the world -- once they've served their role in a given viv, they should be destroyed along with anything else living in the substrate (drying, heat) or at the very least doubled bagged and put in a landfill or incinerator. Under no circumstances should they be allowed back into the wild (it is illegal in the US without the proper permitting, and irresponsible in any event), and would be very risky to share with other frog keepers once they've been in with frogs. Many of the general concerns about hybridizing would be muted, if not totally eliminated, in these situations.


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