# Calcium Gluconate



## Guest

This is the Calcium gluconate that i bought. Should i dilute it with water before misting the enclosures?? It is a 23% solution so it is already diluted some. Is once a week good for froglets??


----------



## trinacliff

The people that have said they have had luck with this have been diluting that solution (23%) 50/50 with RO or distilled water, and then using a dropper to put one drop per week on the froglet(s) back. I haven't seen anywhere that people have recommended misting the tanks with it...maybe I missed it, but I'm trying the way mentioned above since that seems to be what has helped so far.

Kristen


----------



## defaced

From Ed in this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10419&start=15


> The calcium gluconate should be diluted to a 2.3% solution.


So mix it 1:10 (calcium cluconate:water). I would use distilled water to decrease risk of contaminates.


----------



## trinacliff

I read that completely differently...Ed says, "Basically a solution of about 2% glucose is created, and the frog is well misted and then a several drops of the solution are put on the frog". I didn't see that as misting the frog WITH the 2% glucose solution...I read it as misting well to get the frog nice and hydrated, and THEN dropping that solution on the frog. Maybe I read it wrong, but I'm still going with the other way since I've talked directly with a few people that it's worked for. 

Kristen


----------



## Guest

ok, so i will go with a 10:1 mixture, mist the tank real well (with water)and do one drop per froglet. I will ty it on 1 first and wait just in case. If after 24 hours i see no ill effect i will do the drops for the rest. At a 10:1 mixture I guess i bought way too much of this. I have enough for a 20 year supply   
I think i will post the extra two bottles in the "trade" forum!!! 1 bottle will give me 5,000 ml of solution which would equal well over 500,000 drops and i dont think i will be in need of that much.


----------



## trinacliff

I've only seen it available in 500ml bottles...and it's cheap, so no worries.  

Kristen


----------



## defaced

> I didn't see that as misting the frog WITH the 2% glucose solution...


I didn't detail the application, just how to make a 2.3% solution. I'm not famliar with the methods of application so I didn't comment on it.


----------



## trinacliff

Right, but it was seeming that Nicholas, and maybe some others, were reading that differently...so I brought it up. 

Kristen


----------



## Guest

Remember guys/gals that i am new to dart frogs and any and all advice or help is greatly appeciated!!!!! If you think I may be doing something wrong please speak your mind, I am not a defensive person and always appreciate the help of others


----------



## trinacliff

No prob, Nicholas...it seems like it could easily be misread, and I had to go back and read it again as I thought I might have been misreading it. 

Kristen


----------



## Frank H

Where could I buy this calcium gluconate?


----------



## Ed

If I'm the Ed being referred to.. then I meant that the frog should be misted with water to ensure adequate hydration and the calcium gluconate 2-2.3% is then dripped on the frog. This is taken from what some vets have told me as an adaptation of soaking the amphibian in a 2.3% calcium gluconate solution as listed in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry. 

Ed


----------



## trinacliff

Shew, that is how I read it...was hoping that was the right way to interpret it.  

Thanks Ed!

Kristen


----------



## Guest

Frank H said:


> Where could I buy this calcium gluconate?


 Overview


Calcium gluconate, also known as D-Gluconic acid calcium salt, glucobiogen, or calciofon, is the water-soluble calcium salt of gluconic acid. It is employed to treat hypocalcemia and conditions in which the physiological effects of increasing the plasma calcium level are likely to be beneficial to the animal.

Calcium gluconate comes in an assortment of preparations, though the injectable form is most often employed in veterinary medicine. 

Calcium is involved in several important biological processes. A Ca++-dependant messenger system regulates important cell function and Ca++ activates some cellular enzyme cascades. Calcium is involved in both smooth muscle and myocardial muscle contraction. It is a positive inotrope and has variable effect on systemic vascular resistance. In addition, calcium is involved in the proper conduction of nervous impulses and regulates the secretory activity of exocrine glands.

Calcium gluconate will treat or prevent the deleterious effects of hypocalcemia. When the hypocalcemia is slowly evolving, oral calcium gluconate can be used. In more acute situations, the injectable variety is preferable. 

*Calcium gluconate is a prescription drug and can only be obtained from a veterinarian or by prescription from a veterinarian.*


Brand Names and Other Names


Calcium gluconate is approved for use in humans and cattle, horses, swine, sheep, cats, and dogs (depending on the product). No withdrawal times are required in food animals

Human formulations: Various generic preparations

Veterinary formulations: Various generic preparations


----------



## Frank H

Just ordered the same bottle as pictured top of this thread for under $12 shipped. Thanks
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

Frank


----------



## Guest

thats where i got mine, they check your state law then email you. CA people need an RX.


----------



## Frank H

Why is it so hard to get meds here, I need some powdered dewormer too.... :roll: 

Well I paid for the auction allready,, will see what they do/say.


----------



## Guest

you guys have some really tough laws out there.



*But you have much nicer weather!!!!!!!* 8) 8)


----------



## rmelancon

Remeber that if you put calcium gluconate in your misting system you will wind up with calcium and sugar deposits that can gum up your misting heads. Not to mention that you will also be depositing this on everything else in the tank.


----------



## Guest

rmelancon said:


> Remeber that if you put calcium gluconate in your misting system you will wind up with calcium and sugar deposits that can gum up your misting heads. Not to mention that you will also be depositing this on everything else in the tank.


thats good info !!! I think it was the general consensus to just put a small drop on each and not to mist the enclosure with it.


----------



## Ed

I think that if you put it in your misting systems, the calcium will clog the mist heads but the massive bacterial bloom would probably clog them anyway...

Ed


----------



## Jordan B

Would I need a prescription to order it from here: http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp ... URLCheck=1 ?


----------



## defaced

> If I'm the Ed being referred to..


Yes, you were the Ed I was reffering to. Thank you for clearing up any confusion.


----------



## Guest

Jordan B said:


> Would I need a prescription to order it from here: http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp ... URLCheck=1 ?



i would say so, that is a "vet" supply.


----------



## Guest

try to order it, this is what you will get.



KV requires authorization from your veterinarian to process any prescription order. If you place your order before contacting your vet, please give your vet the order number and ask them to include this when calling or faxing. This allows us to easily identify your order. All prescription orders are held pending authorization from your veterinarian.


----------



## rmelancon

http://animalmedicstore.stores.yahoo.net/calgluc23bya.html

No vet needed.


----------



## Jordan B

My new hero!!!!


----------



## Guest

Just an update. I used it on all my new darts with no ill affects what so ever. One sall drop on the back of each.
I just got my got my springtails in yesterday and put some in with the azureus and they went nuts. They made sure to stay there until every last one was gone from the first bunch that i added. Toady i will add nore undernath something so they cant get all of them only the ones that come out from under the thing thier hiding under, that will give the colony a chance to grow and thrive.


----------



## sports_doc

I get it at the local animal/horse supply. In the horse/cattle section. Very cheap ~9$/bottle.
S


----------



## defaced

Does anyone know if The Tractor Supply Store carries it? I've not had an opportunity to check it out.


----------



## bluedart

Is this used more as a preventative, or as a medical solution to a sick frog?


----------



## Ed

Historically this has been used as a treatment for amphibians that are suffering from one form of MBD or another (depending on the form there maybe other supportive treatments required) but it appears that in some obligate eggfeeders, the treatment of the froglets with calcium gluconate appears to increase the survivial rate post 6 months (I say appears as I have to take other people's word for this as I haven't used it this way). (Robb want to chime in here?) 
It has also been reported as a anecdotal usage for badly stressed animals that were unresponsive with good success (again I haven't used it this way so I have to report it as anecdotal). 

Ed


----------



## Guest

You can order it for 2.98 from QC Supply https://www.qcsupply.com/


----------



## Guest

WOW!!! That is the cheapest i have ever seen it. Great find!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Guest

Kind of a strange question... can his be added to fruit fly culture medium as a means of boosting calcium in flies?


----------



## Guest

leecey411 said:


> Kind of a strange question... can his be added to fruit fly culture medium as a means of boosting calcium in flies?


Now there a good question!!!


----------



## Ed

In all of the insects studied to date, when sufficient calcium is added to modify the Ca ratio, it increases the mortality of the targeted insects to the point where the insects begin to die off about 72 hours after calcium loading (crickets, mealworms, wax worms, and even silkworms). In addition, the addition of Ca to the insects doesn't do much good unless the frog is already has some source of D3 as otherwise the frog cannot metabolize the Ca (this has been documented in anurans). This means, that if you are dusting the flies to supply D3 (and the supplement contains Ca) you run the risk of oversupplementing Ca which leads to conditional deficiencies in other required trace minerals. Of all of the required minerals, Ca may have the narrowest safe range as above this and below this range can cause significant problems for the frogs. 

Also the ability to gut load depends on the gut length of the targeted insect and at this time, it is believed that ffs may have too short a intestional tract as well as too rapid a metabolism to make this feasible (assuming you got around the lack of D3 issue). 

Ed


----------



## rmelancon

Ed said:


> Historically this has been used as a treatment for amphibians that are suffering from one form of MBD or another (depending on the form there maybe other supportive treatments required) but it appears that in some obligate eggfeeders, the treatment of the froglets with calcium gluconate appears to increase the survivial rate post 6 months (I say appears as I have to take other people's word for this as I haven't used it this way). (Robb want to chime in here?)
> It has also been reported as a anecdotal usage for badly stressed animals that were unresponsive with good success (again I haven't used it this way so I have to report it as anecdotal).
> 
> Ed


It is a preventative at best. There is no way to really know if it is actually a calcium deficiency that is the cause of deaths in pumilio froglets that so many have experienced and that this treatment is actually "curing" or preventing calcium deficiency. In my case since I started treating with CG my froglet mortality at 3-6 months dropped to near 0. It could be the calcium, or as Ed pointed out in a conversation at IAD, it could be the glucose providing extra "energy" to get past a rough point in development. It could be that the parents are now producing healthier froglets and the CG is not having any effect. The fact that I went from losing just about every man creek and chiriqui river I produced to now losing almost none presents a strong case that it is having some effect but there is the possibility it is coincindental and some other parameter has changed. I have heard of others having similar success so I tend to lean towards it having a positive effect, but I'm not convinced it is completely a calcium problem.

Ed I have a couple of related questions: 1 - How much calcium do you think can be realistically absorbed through the skin and 2 - Do you think it is possible with the methods I have suggested and use to overdose?


----------



## Ed

Hi Robb,

I am unaware of any direct studies on calcium uptake in adult anurans through the skin however there are a fair number of studies on caudates and if I remember correctly tadpoles). In these cases, the amphibians can transport a significant amount of calcium through the skin (in both directions as it is partially used to control the osmotic balance of the frog). I have used this a treatment for amphibs that have had MBD issues with x-rays and blood values supporting (circumstancial) significant uptake of calcium. 

With respect to causing deficiencies, calcium as part of the diet is a more significant problem as it has a very narrow acceptable range (one of the narrowest of the required minerals) and in excess as part of the diet will cause conditional deficiencies in other minerals like zinc. Now, residual calcium on the skin when it is ingested increasing the calcium levels sufficiently to cause issues is unlikely but should be considered. 

I think that there is something else nutritionally going on with the froglets that the calcium gluconate is helping them overcome. 



Ed


----------



## c'est ma

Ed,

Two questions:

1) With regard to calcium having a "very narrow acceptable range," how does this square with our totally unquantitative and unstandardized procedure of dusting our foodstuffs with it? Is the amount of Ca one can get on live insects relative to the number of same a frog is going to eat just automatically going to be within the range?

2) Doesn't phosphorus affect Ca metabolism nearly as much as D3? (I know it's in the Herptivite.)


----------



## Ed

snip "
1) With regard to calcium having a "very narrow acceptable range," how does this square with our totally unquantitative and unstandardized procedure of dusting our foodstuffs with it? Is the amount of Ca one can get on live insects relative to the number of same a frog is going to eat just automatically going to be within the range? endsnip 

According to one unpublished study (but some discussion on it is available in the new Mader's book) ffs retain significantly more calcium than larger insects like crickets and can retain a sufficient amount to oversupply calcium. In other words, in most cases if you are dusting with a Ca supplement each time then you may be oversupplementing with Ca. 


snip "2) Doesn't phosphorus affect Ca metabolism nearly as much as D3? (I know it's in the Herptivite.) "endsnip

Yes phosphorus does affect it. When all is said and done you want a ratio of phosphorus to calcium in the diet between 1 and 2:1 C (close to 1.5 :1 C to P may be close to ideal. However if the ratio gets above 2:1 then the animal is getting insufficient phosphorus which in and of itself is an issue. (for an slightly (I need to update it) outdated MBD primer see http://www.tracyhicks.com/MBD.htm as it discusses the issues with calcium and phosphorus both too little and too much). 

Ed


----------



## c'est ma

Ed said:


> According to one unpublished study (but some discussion on it is available in the new Mader's book) ffs retain significantly more calcium than larger insects like crickets and can retain a sufficient amount to oversupply calcium. In other words, in most cases if you are dusting with a Ca supplement each time then you may be oversupplementing with Ca.


And then we have to consider what happens when flies are fed so that they last in the viv for 2 or 3 days and groom off the supplements...

That sounds like an interesting study--I wonder at what intervals after dusting did they measure the retained amounts of supplements?



> Yes phosphorus does affect it. When all is said and done you want a ratio of phosphorus to calcium in the diet between 1 and 2:1 C (close to 1.5 :1 C to P may be close to ideal. However if the ratio gets above 2:1 then the animal is getting insufficient phosphorus which in and of itself is an issue. (for an slightly (I need to update it) outdated MBD primer see http://www.tracyhicks.com/MBD.htm as it discusses the issues with calcium and phosphorus both too little and too much).


A good article, and one that points out yet another important variable, UVB, which can also be over- as well as under-supplied. In the case of pumilio, which are often found in disturbed habitats, I often wonder if they aren't adapted to rec'g maybe more sunlight than some other dendrobatids?...

A good article, but again one that makes our relative lack of quantitative guidelines maddening. It seems to leave the hobbyist open for blame no matter what course s/he takes. And in the end, it all comes down to the old maxim "the eye of the farmer fatteneth the calf." (Close observation yields best results.) 

I find it interesting that I use the same supplements for my minuscule darts and my half-kilogram tortoise...at least she can spend part of the summer outside basking and grazing!


----------



## Ed

Hi Diane,

The rate of grooming off supplements is pretty well studied in feeder insects. If I remember correctly, pretty much all of the supplement is removed from the insect with 12 hours of dusting and (again if I remember correctly) over 50% is removed within several hours. The inherent problem is that amphibians are hard wired to take advantage of periods of excess food (as the frogs in the wild do not have the food gods delivering thier meal every day at the same time) and will ingest a greater amount that is metabolically required. As a lot of people use either a complete supplement or a supplement containing Ca and D3 alone this puts the frogs at risk of hypercalcemia and/or hypervitaminosis of D3 (as the excess is stored by the frogs). 
Now this will be mitigated to some extent by the excess insects being allowed to roam the enclosure until they die or are captured by the frog but in cases of complete supplements, the conditional trace deficencies are still going to be a concern (one vet told me that she suspects a larg3e number of the generic bloat cases are due to toxicity of D3 and that calcium is the most oversupplemented mineral) and the loss of nutrients by the insects until they are captured are also a concern. 

Some of the randomness to the supplementation will be taken out of the equation as more institutions work on the supplement issues (it isn't profitable enough for the manufacturers to do the studies) and tweak them. For example one of the things that is showing up a little more often now is short tongue/sticky tongue syndrome where insufficient vitamin A supplementation (as retinol) is causing the frogs to lose the ability to capture prey items. This is due to the fact that some anurans appear to be inefficient in converting carotenoids to vitamin A. 

In general, the supplemental needs shown by the tortoise and the frogs are the same as both species respond well to the general guidelines developed for domestic animals. The size of the animal only determines the quantity of the supplements needed not the ratios required. (On a side note, chelonians provided with three months of exposure to unfiltered sunlight can synthesize and store sufficinet D3 to get them through the rest of the year). 

I think UVA maybe of greater importance than UVB as the D3 needs can be readily me through nutritional supplementation. The more the effects of UVA and near UVA wavelengths on the behavior of amphibians, reptiles and birds are studied the more they discover. Not only do these animals often exhibit UVA flash marking and patterns, the UVA reflectance of food items maybe used as a feeding stimulus and some species of reptiles conduct territorial displays and territorial markings with UVA reflectance. 

Some more thoughts

Ed


----------



## Jordan B

Ok, so I got my bottle (thanks Aleece)! It's one of those things where it looks like you need to draw it out with a syringe. Is that what most of you do? Then, you put it in a 1/10 ratio with distilled water, use what you need, and put the rest in the fridge? What do you do with the un-diluted bottle? How long does the diluted stuff last in the fridge, and how long does the un-diluted stuff last? 

Also, do you give 1 drop per week for the pum froglets, up to 6 months of age? I have a sick pumilio that is only taking undusted springtails right now, would it be ok to put a drop on it's back a few times a week along with the baytril and silver sulfadiazine it is getting daily? Thanks.

Jordan


----------



## Jordan B

Double post.


----------



## c'est ma

Ed said:


> Hi Diane,
> 
> The rate of grooming off supplements is pretty well studied in feeder insects. If I remember correctly, pretty much all of the supplement is removed from the insect with 12 hours of dusting and (again if I remember correctly) over 50% is removed within several hours. The inherent problem is that amphibians are hard wired to take advantage of periods of excess food (as the frogs in the wild do not have the food gods delivering thier meal every day at the same time) and will ingest a greater amount that is metabolically required. As a lot of people use either a complete supplement or a supplement containing Ca and D3 alone this puts the frogs at risk of hypercalcemia and/or hypervitaminosis of D3 (as the excess is stored by the frogs).
> Now this will be mitigated to some extent by the excess insects being allowed to roam the enclosure until they die or are captured by the frog but in cases of complete supplements, the conditional trace deficencies are still going to be a concern (one vet told me that she suspects a larg3e number of the generic bloat cases are due to toxicity of D3 and that calcium is the most oversupplemented mineral) and the loss of nutrients by the insects until they are captured are also a concern.


Thanks for the thorough account. I have read much of this before, probably from previous posts of yours!--in addition to other sources--but it's always nice to revisit the particulars as it takes several exposures before it all sinks in. It still feels like a black box, quantitatively, though. Speaking of D3 toxicity, does that present symptoms that would show up on necropsy? I once lost some stump-tailed chams that in retrospect I believe may have been due to oversupplementation (and I believe I was misinterpreting bloat in some of them as gravidness). A necropsy showed not much but some minor and localized bacterial/fungal infections, that were thought to be due to, rather than the cause of, their illness...



> Some of the randomness to the supplementation will be taken out of the equation as more institutions work on the supplement issues (it isn't profitable enough for the manufacturers to do the studies) and tweak them. For example one of the things that is showing up a little more often now is short tongue/sticky tongue syndrome where insufficient vitamin A supplementation (as retinol) is causing the frogs to lose the ability to capture prey items. This is due to the fact that some anurans appear to be inefficient in converting carotenoids to vitamin A.


And yet, we went to carotenoids in response to A hypervitaminosis, did we not? At least in other herps? That's very interesting, as I lost one of my intermedius froglets to a similar condition, even though I thought I'd been quite careful with the supplements after my cham experience--and of course I used the supplements with carotenoids...(Herptivite). (And, in response to advice from this forum and the breeder, I tried treating it with Ca-gluconate and Pedialyte soaks...) Well, it's great to hear that anuran nutritional research is making progress!



> In general, the supplemental needs shown by the tortoise and the frogs are the same as both species respond well to the general guidelines developed for domestic animals. The size of the animal only determines the quantity of the supplements needed not the ratios required. (On a side note, chelonians provided with three months of exposure to unfiltered sunlight can synthesize and store sufficinet D3 to get them through the rest of the year).


Well, that's very good to learn! In all my reading I've not run across that datum before. 



> I think UVA maybe of greater importance than UVB as the D3 needs can be readily me through nutritional supplementation. The more the effects of UVA and near UVA wavelengths on the behavior of amphibians, reptiles and birds are studied the more they discover. Not only do these animals often exhibit UVA flash marking and patterns, the UVA reflectance of food items maybe used as a feeding stimulus and some species of reptiles conduct territorial displays and territorial markings with UVA reflectance.
> 
> Some more thoughts
> 
> Ed


And yet, if I'm not mistaken, the general consensus among pdf keepers is that UVA/UVB is not required? I've _always_ wondered about that.

Well, please don't take all my questions as contrarian in any way. I'm just expressing my frustration with the unknowns. But I've greatly enjoyed this tutorial and have learned a lot.


----------



## biocmp

*ED>>>>>>>*

So, if we are noticing the beginning of sticky tongue in one of our frogs, we should do what to combat it? One of my azureus will miss 3-4 times when I first feed, but after that he will get 5-10 in a row, miss a couple times, then get some more.

I think it is a vit. a problem, so what would be the best thing to do?


----------



## Ed

snip "Ok, so I got my bottle (thanks Aleece)! It's one of those things where it looks like you need to draw it out with a syringe. Is that what most of you do?"endsnip

It is what we do when we use it.

snipThen, you put it in a 1/10 ratio with distilled water, use what you need, and put the rest in the fridge?"endsnip 

I would suggest making as small a batch as possible as this stuff grows bacteria etc very very readily even in the fridge. We typically do not make up more than what we would use for a week at time. 

snip "What do you do with the un-diluted bottle?"endsnip

It goes in the fridge and is reguarly checked for cloudiness (which indicates bacterial contamination). If it becomes cloudy it is immediately discarded. 

snip "How long does the diluted stuff last in the fridge, and how long does the un-diluted stuff last? "endsnip

It depends and see above .

Ed


----------



## Ed

Hi Diane,

I am shortening up the post with snips of your responses. 

snip "Speaking of D3 toxicity, does that present symptoms that would show up on necropsy? I once lost some stump-tailed chams that in retrospect I believe may have been due to oversupplementation (and I believe I was misinterpreting bloat in some of them as gravidness). A necropsy showed not much but some minor and localized bacterial/fungal infections, that were thought to be due to, rather than the cause of, their illness... "endsnip

If I remember correctly I believe it does (there is good coverage of this topic in Mader's new book) but as with other things, the results can look like other items. Some of the results should show on histopath but probably the best answer would have to have come from having the D3 content of the body analyzed. 

snip "And yet, we went to carotenoids in response to A hypervitaminosis, did we not? At least in other herps? " endsnip

This was because at that time the diets and supplements typically being used in the other herps were excessively high in retinol and in other animals studied carotenoids are readily converted to retinol by the animal thus meeting its metabolic needs without the dangerous side effects of excessive retinol. Also the switch to carotenoids makes multi-supplements more stable as (again if I remember correctly off hand) vitamin D3 and A when combined together have a greater rate of oxidation than if they are seperate or carotenoids are used. 


snip "And yet, if I'm not mistaken, the general consensus among pdf keepers is that UVA/UVB is not required? I've always wondered about that. "endsnip 

The fact that UVA is used for these behaviors doesn't mean that it is required as demonstrated through the multiple generations of frogs reared without it. 

The need to UVB can be totally replaced through the use of supplements showing that it agian isn't absolutely necessary. 

One of things to keep in mind with the UV controversy is that the vast majority of lighting systems cannot deliver adequate levels of UV for any significant distance unless you are willing to accept significant levels of increased heat as a side product. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

snip 
o, if we are noticing the beginning of sticky tongue in one of our frogs, we should do what to combat it? One of my azureus will miss 3-4 times when I first feed, but after that he will get 5-10 in a row, miss a couple times, then get some more. 

I think it is a vit. a problem, so what would be the best thing to do?" endsnip

This sounds like perfectly normal behaviors. No frogs capture with every attempt. 

Ed


----------



## pa.walt

i know it is not he same stuff but could you mix some rep-cal in water and drop the solution on the frog's back like you would with the gluconate. or would it not work. also i read you could mix a little ball of the rep-cal and open it's mouth and give it to the frog.


----------



## TimStout

Ed, 
I have seen STS a few times in some young Ancon Hill auratus. I suspected it was something transfered from parents to tads as I allow dad to deposit tads but fecals showed nothing. Also only a small number of the young have developed this problem. 
I also thought this might be a diet issue which makes me think that I should be making improements to my FF media as well as varying their diets from mainly FF's to a greater ammount of other goodies.

Tim


----------



## Ed

Hi Tim,

There are a lot of nutritionally oriented SLS causes that can range from insufficient maternally supplied nutrients in the egg (as limb bud formation occurs very early) to insuffient diets after the tads are deposited to potentially endocrine disruptors in/due to the rearing water... 


Ed


----------



## TimStout

Hey Ed,
I was talking about sticky tounge syndrome.
In my experience the younger Ancon Hill frogs (froglets to juvis) are shy and I rarely see them out at feeding time like I do with other auratus and tincs for example. I've observed them eating from under a leaf when flies walk by but rarely out in the open. I'm wondering if supliments are well groomed off by the time a fly walks by. I suspect more hiding spots would help. 
Any thoughts?


----------

