# Selling, Trading and Desirability



## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

Hello everyone,

I've been on this board since the day after it was created(if not literally, very close to that) and I've watched various species come and go in popularity and I've seen many new species introduced into the hobby.

My friend and I are looking to get back in to the hobby (well I'd be getting back in to it, and he'd be starting up). Some of you might remember me and my 75 gallon construction journal that was stickied in the Parts and Construction thread for a long time, but for those that don't: I started frogging when I was born. I got in to PDFs when I was 13 or 14 and I'm now 21. I've bred Azureus, Pumilio, and Reginas successfully and I am looking in to starting with a new species.

On to my point; I would like to hear what species people would "rank" as easiest to sell versus easiest to trade. I am not looking to make a profit by any means, but I think it would be interesting information to have. The species we're looking in to are:
- P. terribilis ( I like the idea of a group of the orange terribs. )
- R. uakarii
- R. vanzolinii
- O. pumilio ( various morphs, personal fan of the Darklands and Escudos)
and a few others. Those species are what I would consider some of the more desired/"move-able" species today, not to mention some of my personal favorites. I would love to hear other's opinions on todays hot frogs!

Side note: Remember this isn't the "rarest frog list" it's the "most desired at the moment" list. If we were to compile a list of the rarest AND most desired I figure it would look something like histrionicus, benedicta, and several other rare/questionably legal frogs (not saying that histos or benedicta are questionably legal, I was thinking more of mysteriosus and others).


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

desirability has a certain ebb and flow in this hobby, and you have to consider a few things. how rare is the frog, how well does it produce, can you raise the young, etc.? 

these factors will play an important role.
terribilis seem to become very popular and demand and price skyrocket, but then drastically plummet at the market becomes saturated. they are good breeders that can have large clutches. so over the long run these could be good

ukarii, havent ever seemed to be popular (to me) and therefore, while they command a large price, they could be a gamble (IMO)

the vanzolinii are small, easy to care fore and easy to breed (similar to imis from the reports ive heard/ mine are just at breeding age) however if the drastic decline in their price is any indication, i feel that these may go the way amazonicus/iquitos, have and continue to devalue until they hit the low point of 20-30$. this could create a lull and then rise in popularity, but its probably a way off. (they're on the decline as far as price/ trade-ability go)

the pumilios, particularly the desireable ones, are sporadic breeders at best, so as far as breeding and ability to trade etc. they probably arent a good choice. 

james


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Vanzos will _never_ hit $30 or under. Not gonna happen.

They are not _that_ easy to breed / raise.

Veradero, for instance, are holding stong at over $100 for now and they are a very prolific breeder and not hard to raise to adulthood. a LOT of people are having sucess with them.

They may well be considered the bellwether species to watch for dart business trends.

Pumilio tend to be properly valued due to the diffculty of finding a healthy matched pair and having the froglets morph out healthy.

Tincs and rare tinc morphs are very highly traded.

Retics are in demand and have great value but as we all know....they should only be kept by the more advanced hobbyists but as such are highly tradable within that small demographic.

Some thoights.....


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## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

Thanks guys, Philsuma that's exactly the type of response I was looking for.

Varadero are a great example. They're a great looking frog that people enjoy keeping and therefore have a more "static value" than some other species.

I also agree that Vanzo's won't get that low, but I could see them coming down to $75-$80 a piece. However, Vanzo's are capable of being kept in groups (from what I've read) and that small factor alone could keep the price of them above $100. For instance, when you have most people buying 2-4 frogs (in hopes of a breeding pair, then selling the others), you could have people buying 4-8 frogs for a larger vivarium and keeping them as a group. This increases the demand and keeps the price up (I think I've been in school too long).


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i do think they will get that low. vanzolinii were going for $250 ea a little more than a year ago, and at that time the iquitos vents were hovering at about $125, (about where the vanzos are now)which is why i suggest they are similar. veraderos are probably a good case of this as well, and if im not mistaken they have started to dip under $100 here and there. tarapotas are the same as well. $150 a year ago and 50-80 now.

the popularity is the reason they wont stick. because unfortunately human nature seems to support one-up-manship. and having what everyone else has isnt as cool. i suspect they will eventually drop pretty low, but probably not for another year or two, then after a short lull, as continues to happen with so many species/ morphs interest will pick up.

james


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Never underestimate the power of markets to implode (or explode), especially over a long term scale.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Vanzos will _never_ hit $30 or under. Not gonna happen.


I remember someone saying that about Azureus in an old ADG newsletter. I wouldn't base your choice of frogs on the market or desirability, because as mentioned, neither stay the same. Pick the frogs that YOU like best, and you'll be more satisfied in the long run.


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## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

I completely agree Dane, I'm not posting this thread to help my friend and myself make our decision on what we're going to get (we're still debating between thumbs or not thumbs hah). I'm started this thread because I think it's an interesting topic to discuss and thought it would be fun to hear people's opinions.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

EverettC said:


> I completely agree Dane, I'm not posting this thread to help my friend and myself make our decision on what we're going to get (we're still debating between thumbs or not thumbs hah). I'm started this thread because I think it's an interesting topic to discuss and thought it would be fun to hear people's opinions.


Short of the constant demand for beginner frogs (genus Dendrobates) my feelings are that the key to a species overall stability in the hobby is keeping the supply of the frogs stable. While demand will wax and wane due to vagaries of humanity, a limited supply will buffer diminished demand. So, the key to finding a species that will always have stable demand is finding one that is in demand now (at least to some extent) and then seeing how readily it reproduces. 

Good Candidates
_Oophaga_ because one pair just won't produce mass quantities no matter how skilled you are.
_R. reticulata_- breed readily, but froglets are tricky to raise
_R. fantastica_ group- not the easiest or most reliable to breed but people like them even though they are shy

Honorable Mention
_R. imitator_- the fact they are thumbnails limits the number of people breeding them but they are good first thumbs increases demand. I can't see a good reason why all the morphs won't stabilize in the $50 to $75 range in 2-3 years though.
_R. vanzolinii_- see above


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Standard lamasi- sporadic breeding keeps supply limited. Seems like every time they are available they sell


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## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

Standard lamasi are an interesting frog. It seems like they differ from the other lamasi (aside from just coloration), however I have no experience with them and cannot figure out why. They're an interesting morph because the other morphs of the same species are fairly cheap and seem to reproduce like vents.

Another few morphs that come to mind are Regina and Giant Orange tincs. Those seem to have similar sale patterns to the standard lamasi.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

and Lorenzo, since they are seasonal breeders and lay small clutches.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Agreed! If we buy and raise the frogs that WE want to have, there will always be others who find them attractive and will be happy to trade for them. Right now I still think that Yellow, Orange, and Mint Green Terribilis are pretty awesome frogs (though I'll always be partial to tinctorius!).

I still raise Azureus and Leucomelas in pretty large numbers and have never had any problems finding retailers who wanted them. They are the "bread and butter" frogs of the hobby (and some of my personal favorites to have in my collection!)

Good luck, Richard.



Dane said:


> I remember someone saying that about Azureus in an old ADG newsletter. I wouldn't base your choice of frogs on the market or desirability, because as mentioned, neither stay the same. Pick the frogs that YOU like best, and you'll be more satisfied in the long run.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

frogparty said:


> Standard lamasi- sporadic breeding keeps supply limited. Seems like every time they are available they sell


Quite true. They are a bit of an enigma for me too and now that they're practically gone from the wild due to collecting (or the fact that they are active when people aren't looking for them- mine are crepuscular if not nocturnal).


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

I wonder why there is such a huge price gap between the US and Europe.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

PumilioTurkey said:


> I wonder why there is such a huge price gap between the US and Europe.


Just like anything else....We are oceans (literally) apart on most everthing.

Cars, Wine....


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## dendro-dude (Jan 25, 2010)

I'll take frogs over wine and cars any day, phil 

What about Tinctorius Citronella?? Popular but not as common as most darts


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Seems to me you're going to have the most luck trading (at least for another frog that _you_ might want) those frogs that are harder to breed. Obligate caregivers are going to be your best bet because so few offspring are produced from a single pair and they're so difficult to raise that few people have success breeding them (few people in comparison to say, leucomelas). Currently one of the hot obligate caregivers is the escudo. Chances are in a year and a half (or less?) escudo won't be as high on everyone's list as another frog. But I have a feeling that even when the escudo becomes a little more neglected, you'll still always get your money's worth because there _will_ be people out there who still want it (even if it _isn't_ the hot item) and there will be so few vendors out there who have access to them.

I'd also like to mention about the uakarii. james67 mentioned that they're not particularly popular even though they hold a high price. I think that's mostly due to this particular board. I see a lot more interest circulating about the uakarii on other boards. There's definately a market for them. I seem to think they're one of those frogs that many people want but that want is rarely vocalized. Maybe that's just my perception of that frog, though. However, I know that although that want isn't expressed, there have been quite a few offers to trade some pretty rare frogs for some of _my_ uakarii as soon as I get them breeding (there are some people who've been trying to tear me away from my breeding pair, but they're one of my favorites in my collection and there's no way I could let that happen).


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

The most desired frog out there is most likely the Azureus. Even though it is extremely common and easy to breed they still have a decent price with froglets usually around 30-40 dollars and provens 50 and up. This board I would say mostly consists of at least moderate to advanced froggers. Therefore something less common and rare would catch the attention of dendroboard members faster, but if you look at posts of viv setups you will see an Azureus frog in most collections. Beginners first vivs are usually Azureus as well, so in my mind I would have to say they are the most desired.

As far as what you may be interested in, I would suggest the Vanzo's. They are beautiful frogs, which makes them very desirable whether they remain rare or extremely common.

I love the Uakarii as well. Almost had my hands on a 1.3 group, but the chance slipped away. These are not as easy to come across without paying some cash.


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## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

My friend and I decided to go with Varaderos for the tank we're building. It should be fun, I've always liked the imitators regardless of what morph they are and they seem to be a very bold frog. It appears that the trade value frogs hold is higher than their monetary value, which I think is a good thing.

Ideally we'd like to get a breeding group going (they'll be going into a 65 gallon, so definitely a large tank for them) and possibly experiment with a second group of frogs in the tank, most likely blue/bronze auratus.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

EverettC said:


> My friend and I decided to go with Varaderos for the tank we're building. It should be fun, I've always liked the imitators regardless of what morph they are and they seem to be a very bold frog. It appears that the trade value frogs hold is higher than their monetary value, which I think is a good thing.
> 
> Ideally we'd like to get a breeding group going (they'll be going into a 65 gallon, so definitely a large tank for them) and possibly experiment with a second group of frogs in the tank, most likely blue/bronze auratus.


You will enjoy them, I'm sure! When I was in more active in keeping PDF's several years ago, I drooled over the very few images there were of these frogs...and most of those images were taken of smuggled frogs in Europe. When I finally found the time to get back into keeping darts (this past Jan.), I set my mind on getting varadero's and wouldn't take no for an answer. My goal was reached and I am very gracious to be able to finally keep these beauties. 
Now, if only I could sex one of them....looks like a male but acts like a female when the other male is calling. And the calling male looks like a female...
?I have them temporarily seperated with the calling male placed in a temporary 10g. My plan is to watch the unsexed one to see if it calls now that there isn't the presence of a possible dominant male in the same viv.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

EverettC said:


> Standard lamasi are an interesting frog. It seems like they differ from the other lamasi (aside from just coloration), however I have no experience with them and cannot figure out why. They're an interesting morph because the other morphs of the same species are fairly cheap and seem to reproduce like vents.


The "Standard" lamasi are actually from higher elevations (I prefer referring to them as "Highland" because of this...the term "standard" in regards to Dendrobatids doesn't quite make sense to me) than the Panguana frogs, which come from the lowland forests. This might be part of the reason they are more difficult to breed, sort of like the difference between E. anthonyi and E. tricolor (the latter inhabiting higher elevations than the former). The Highland lamasi have pretty much been extirpated from their native habitat, however, most likely from overcollection for the hobby.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> The "Standard" lamasi are actually from higher elevations (I prefer referring to them as "Highland" because of this...the term "standard" in regards to Dendrobatids doesn't quite make sense to me) than the Panguana frogs, which come from the lowland forests. This might be part of the reason they are more difficult to breed, sort of like the difference between E. anthonyi and E. tricolor (the latter inhabiting higher elevations than the former). The Highland lamasi have pretty much been extirpated from their native habitat, however, most likely from overcollection for the hobby.


+1 and a call on a ban on the term 'Standard' (I'd like to see nominate/nominal go too since there are no subspecies recognized currently).

My highlands bred much better when they were in a basement and had less light. I'm thinking of moving them back. 

I think everyone can agree that they are one frog that we definitely owe a solid captive breeding program.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Aurotaenia said:


> (I'd like to see nominate/nominal go too since there are no subspecies recognized currently).


Agreed!



> My highlands bred much better when they were in a basement and had less light. I'm thinking of moving them back.


The lower light thing is interesting...perhaps I'll give that a try with the ones I'm working with.



> I think everyone can agree that they are one frog that we definitely owe a solid captive breeding program.


Absolutely...a TMP would be good to get started.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Im looking for highland lamasi froglets at the moment. If you have some, let me know


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

Aurotaenia said:


> +1 and a call on a ban on the term 'Standard' (I'd like to see nominate/nominal go too since there are no subspecies recognized currently).


I don't think there is anything wrong with calling a morph standard/nominal even if there are no subspecies. No poison frogs have subspecies. It's useful to label morphs so we know what people are talking about. 

But...

In the case of lamasi, what people call 'standard' or 'nominal' is not in fact the nominal morph at all. The real nominal morph is from the lowlands and is found further south. It looks similar to yellow Panguana lamasi. Very different from the highland morph.


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