# Azureus health in decline?



## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

so billschwinn recommended me starting a new thread regarding the questions of my newly acquired pair of azureus health. 

Problem
i bought these frogs with a friend. we left them in my friends tank the first night, and all seemed fine. yesterday moved the frogs into my tank. today my frogs would not eat and seem very stationary with one laying with its legs outstretched. my friend frogs are fine.

here are the specs...

ihave...
20 gal tank (fish tank with fitted glass top)
2 frogs
humidity - 72% (doesnt raise much after heavy misting...)
temp - 79-80 F
lighting - coralife t5. (1) 6700k bulb being used. (now shut off)

substrate
apx 2.5 inch layer of hydroton
apx 2.5 inch layer of eco earth
long fiber spaghnum apx 1 inch 
leaf litter (boiled pothos and another terrarium plant leaves)

background is a waterfall foam cured for 48 hours(the makers recommended) until i started layering my setup.

also used 100% DAP aquarium safe silicone that was cured a bit longer than the foam.

plants were bought a "cringe" home depot and i had them a bit over a month before adding them. both are bromeliads and they are buried in the pots.

this is a newly setup vivarium running for half a week.

frogs introduced yesterday and were very adventurous and climbing around. 

did not monitor overnight temp

today they did not feed when fruit flies were literally crawling on them (my first attempt at feeding them)

**pictures coming when i learn how to post them**


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

Heres a pic of the two when first introduced to my tank yesterday


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

here is the one i am worried about 










top view










top view after i scooted him with a leaf










another shot of him after he moved


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

after looking at all the pictures this is the position he was in for the most of the day.










his legs were outstretched even though its hard to see


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

80 degrees should be looked at with caution. What is the room temp? If your top is all glass you should be good. FF's shouldn't be crawling on the Frogs.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

This little frog was ok in your friend's tank, active and moving around? This is the only one behaving strangely, now?


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Here is a long shot but it may just work. If your frogs were fine until you put them in your tank there may be some toxicity issue in your tank. I would set up a quaratine tank (10) gal, with a different source(brand) spaghnum moss, a few small plants, shallow water bowl, some large leaves to hide under , no bright lighting. After a few hours in this set up see if they will take a little food. The moss I see in your pics does not look to be of quality to me.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I also want to see a full tank shot picture please.


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

thanks for your responses, i was starting to get discouraged D:

heres a pic of the gauges this morning, (which i now understand a lot of people have mixed feelings about). however, im considering getting an accurite model that give daily high and low temp and humidity reading that i thought may be useful. thoughts?










temps are dropping a bit as i have kept the light off and have been leaving the top open to ventilate and cool a bit throughout the morning. been misting from day 1. also, the real reason im concerned is because the frogs did not really show a feeding response, where my roomates have, mine havent moved much (my roomates crawl allover), and one was sprawled out.

im thinking of picking up a zoo med aqua cool aquarium fan. do you think that will be effective? also, i have read you do not want a closed top aquarium with a waterfall or something? is this also due to ventilation problems?

anyways this morning the frogs were both in the same vicinity, but neither one was sprawled out. look close and see some FF on the brom.










B-Nice ~ i read a post regarding your thoughts on hygrometers and believe i must have adequate humidity, regardless of what "all living things" (hygrometer brand) has to say. the glass is constantly showing condensation, and i have a layer of hydroballs and a drip wall/waterfall. also, will the FF's need to be removed?

Frogface ~ my friends/roomates frogs are still active and were eagerly awaiting more flies. i contemplated putting the frogs back into that tank as, i have no real quarantine available at this time. even my tupperware is being used atm (however i can get some at the store). to answer your question both frogs seemed fine in my roomates tank the day before yesterday.

heres a full tank shot




















Thanks all!


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

there may be truth in this... i got the spaghnum at home depot. it was labeled as 100% organic and to be used as decorative, terrarium, etc.... the moss is definitely gives of an odor that i can identify when smelling the tank which i thought may have been normal but..... any recommendations on a quality replacement?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm thinking along the same lines as Bill. You said you cured the foam for 48 hours before adding the other stuff (water?) to the tank. While 48 hours may be adequate for cure time, in most cases, I think it should be longer when dealing with amphibians.

I'd do what Bill suggested, asap, as if it is a toxicity in the tank, only one frog may be showing symptoms now, but, the others may also be in danger. Maybe take out the innards, except the foam, let it dry out and cure for days more. Wash off the plants and toss the moss.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Home depot has Moser Lee moss that is not very good. They also have (or had. I don't see it on their website at the moment) a higher grade moss that is endorsed by the American Orchid Society. That is what I get. The ZooMed moss at pet stores is ok to use but more expensive than the stuff at Home Depot or Lowe's. 

The stuff I use is called Better Grow Premium Orchid Moss. I'll look for a picture.

Here's what I use: Premium Grade 1/8 cu. ft. Orchid Moss (2-Pack)-50455 at The Home Depot


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Are2 said:


> there may be truth in this... i got the spaghnum at home depot. it was labeled as 100% organic and to be used as decorative, terrarium, etc.... the moss is definitely gives of an odor that i can identify when smelling the tank which i thought may have been normal but..... any recommendations on a quality replacement?


Good moss has an odor so that is probably not relevant in this case. I do want to point out for everyone to consider when buying moss in garden centers. Try and get it when they first get it in as the longer it is there the more risk it is contaminated by them spraying ther plants by overspray of insect and fungus sprays, I have seen this at my local stores. Also, the last 6 mionths I have had re-occuring problems with the better gro brand growing a fungus that looks like white webbing interwoven in the moss when it is wet. It seems to be present after about 2 weeks of being wet, it then gives off a noxious odor that has caused death of some frogs of mine. I have since swiched brands to other suppliers by looking on the internet.


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)




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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

ok thanks this is the mosser lee stuff. i will do what you guys recommend asap. thanks for the advice. 

could anyone find time to answer my questions regarding ventilation for when i reintroduce the frogs?

thanks again so much. i will let you know if they feed later today when they are temporarily rehomed.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Some people have tanks with no ventilation. I like to have some ventilation in mine. Each of my tanks has a strip of screen from 1 inch on some tanks to 3-4 inches on other tanks. 

You want the tank humid, but, not constantly wet. your substrate sounds like it would hold a lot of water (eco earth and sphagnum), especially with a waterfall. When you're re-doing your tank, take care that the water is not running into the substrate. 

I would also like to recommend a substrate that will allow moisture to drain better. Here's a thread regarding some popular mixes of substrates: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html

My substrate is made from items I purchase at Lowe's: Orchid Bark (no perlite or fertilizers, just bark), natural charcoal (this is the 100% charcoal, the pieces are large but I smash them up with a hammer), a handful or so of sphagnum that I crunch up by hand, a handful of eco earth. Sometimes I mix in a bit of LECA and dried leaves, if I have it on hand.

I mix it together, let it soak in distilled or treated tap water for a couple hours, squeeze out the excess water and toss it in, with a nice think layer of dried leaf litter on top.


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

so i got a 10 gallon tank with a glass lid and petsmart and then went next door to home depot to see if they had any fresh orchid moss that was earlier suggested. they had none in stock

i saw new zealand spaghnum moss for $16 at petsmart and remembered that was what was in my roomates tank. (bought off craigslist). 

this is the moss that im planning on using in the temporary 10 gal. and possibly in the new substrate mix. 

i would like your opinion on 











please let me know if this is not advisable and where i could quickly get quality sphagnum

thanks!!


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I have never seen that brand, but it looks so much better than what you had before. Plus if is already in use with your roomate I would think it will be ok for you. You are using drops such as Prime to remove chlorine and chloramine from their water correct?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

That looks like good moss. New Zealand moss is said to be better quality than other sphagnum mosses.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

double

<___________>


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

billschwinn said:


> I have never seen that brand, but it looks so much better than what you had before. Plus if is already in use with your roomate I would think it will be ok for you. You are using drops such as Prime to remove chlorine and chloramine from their water correct?


that's the same stuff calwest carries and it's great moss. Use it in most of my tanks


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

Here is the quarantine tank that I will place the frogs into once the temperature stabilizes to mid-low 70's. I'm heating with my light real quick.

I used all distilled water, except for initial rinse. Should I let my spagnhum soak longer in distilled water? Now that I'm rereading the thread I'm thinking I should let it soak for a few hours rather than minutes. thoughts?

The frog I've been worried about seems to be doing much better in the cooler tank conditions of about 74 since keeping off the light. It has moved about in the tank, but the other frog is still perched atop the cave.

I'm still removing the frogs so I can monitor their health and feeding better, retro fit their tank with appropriate substrate after i let it dry for a bit (a week?), and then i will let the ecosystem develop more as well.

how long can these frogs be in this new quarantine tank, and do i need to add anything else for their comfort?

Thanks again for all the feedback


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

sorry forgot to add leaf litter and a few small plants as recommended. im going to use the leaf litter in my tank already unless otherwise advised. possible throw the plants as well after their rinsed?


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Are2 said:


> Here is the quarantine tank that I will place the frogs into once the temperature stabilizes to mid-low 70's. I'm heating with my light real quick.
> 
> I used all distilled water, except for initial rinse. Should I let my spagnhum soak longer in distilled water? Now that I'm rereading the thread I'm thinking I should let it soak for a few hours rather than minutes. thoughts?
> 
> ...


Move them to the holding tank, but you also need a few plants in their, real or fake for cover or they can stress from that. How hot was your original tank? You do not need to soak for hours, just make sure it is wet.They will be fine in the smaller tank for a week.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Why would you use a Qurantine tank with contents from the tank which may have caused the problem? That makes no sense at all.That is like cleaning a cut on your hand then rubbing feces in it.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

If you don't have plants or leaves to put in there for cover, you can use other items. I've used things like a coffee cups on their side and small clay pots on their side. Stuff they can climb into or under. 

I would not put in anything from the old tank.

You don't want the moss to be soggy.

eta: The reason for plants, leaves or other stuff, in the tank is that they can become stressed out if they don't have enough places to hide. Stress can cause them to stop eating, or, succumb to illness more easily.


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

I had these rocks lying around. I bought them on sale because the package was opened. They're lightweight fake rocks and their more secure than they look. i also have a coconut hut they are leaning on. I'll try to rummage for more cover. 

I've also notice the frogs moving around quite a bit as they explore their new surroundings. hope they stay active

I'll try feeding pinhead crickets (new generation from my roomates gecko food, not gut loaded) or should I stick with the FF? I'm thinking about giving them an hour to adjust first what do you think?

thanks


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I would stick with ffs, but, that's just my personal preference. Others may say that pinheads are fine.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

frogface said:


> I would stick with ffs, but, that's just my personal preference. Others may say that pinheads are fine.


I have fed a lot of pinheads, but I don't think I would feed them to a frog that wouldn't hunt them down fast. They could potentially bother the frogs at lights out, as they are nocturnal of course.


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

well everyone, I want to really thank you for your timely responses and valuable information . I may have lost a frog or 2 if it wasn't for you all!










I witnessed the frog I'm mainly concerned about eating a few FF (decided I couldn't go wrong) that wandered onto the rocks. I'm noticing quite a bit of improvement it seems and now I'm growing fond of the rock area. Not out of the woods yet, but I think I see the light! I'll post an update on their progress in a day or so.

I'm rethinking the build and will probably start a thread in the appropriate section with my trials and tribulations. I will also show in more detail how this tank was set up, as I intend to keep the drip wall, and feel it was decently engineered. 

also I'm wondering if anyone could make any ID as to the sex of these frogs out of all the pics. Thanks again!


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

This is what I get for a little over 3.00 at home depot


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## DemonicalEnvy (Sep 7, 2011)

It's next to impossible to sex them from the pictures you have currently try to get some close top shots. Also if they are old enough come spring or next month when misting daily the male(s) should start calling and then you can sex them yourself. I also use the moss others have posted it's great stuff i use it for my plants and for the vivs i usually chop it up.


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

The frogs seem to be doing much better. They have been eating and showing strong eating reflexes. just wanted to say thanks to everyone again that helped out.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Great news! Thanks for the update


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

stick your head in that other tank and see if you can notice any faint fumes


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## nagasaki (Feb 9, 2012)

Ditch that moss. Id be suspicious of foam. Also sealants can have a wet spot or uncured spot somewhere. I like to give 4 or 5 days in a well ventilated area & make darn sure NO Vinegar smell is present. If its on thick anywhere it maaynot be cured & washing everything a good 1, 2 . or 3x is good idea BE4 adding Live inhabitants. ( ya just cant be cautious enough) Last if your roommates R fine then Id conclude its in YOUR set up. Good Luck !


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

Checking my tank this morning i noticed the coconut hut has developed some mold growing on it. I've read that mold is natural, but i feel this has grown quickly and seems kind of expansive. Just thought I'd share my concern 











Also, I just acquired 5 more azureus froglets from a local breeder that was posted in DB Frog Classifieds. 










the 5th is in the leaf litter. I got a bunch of leaves from Josh's Frogs and was going to boil them, unless someone has a better solution for me to get the leaves in today.

Here's where the 2 setups will be. (I'm keeping them together as these froglets have been raised in a large group, but if i notice anyone not eating I will probably go the seperate housing route.










THANKS!!!


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## Are2 (Jan 14, 2012)

frogface said:


> Some people have tanks with no ventilation. I like to have some ventilation in mine. Each of my tanks has a strip of screen from 1 inch on some tanks to 3-4 inches on other tanks.
> 
> You want the tank humid, but, not constantly wet. your substrate sounds like it would hold a lot of water (eco earth and sphagnum), especially with a waterfall. When you're re-doing your tank, take care that the water is not running into the substrate.
> 
> ...



Ok frogface (or who ever is out there ), I've finally got all the ingredients suggested above for my substrate, and I'm just about ready to mix it. I was wondering if there were more ratio specific directions you could share with me regarding this substrate mix? I notice some small differences with the ABG mix, but do you use the same ratio for the common ingredients?

Ex: I need to make enough substrate to fill (1) 20 gallon, and (2) 10 gallon tanks

Frogface ~ whats your preferred size to break the charcoal into?

It will still be a day or two till I plant substrate, but I want to maybe do a practice run first, and use to grow some plants I've decided not to incorporate into the build.


P.S. tore out the foam and silicon glue that was in my 20 gallon altogether. (what a waste of money on foam!). I'm also dropping the water feature, which I really liked, as I prefer conserve the space. At least I got some experience with it though. 

Noobs~I almost recommend buying a whole can of GS and practicing multiple practice cardboard backgrounds before applying onto your tank. its amazing what you learn

Anyways I found this awesome faux log that fits perfectly into a 20gal my dimensions, and am thinking of just using this, while having the back outside of the tank lined with black paper, and possibly attaching some of my fake rocks to the inside for climbing and perching spots.

P.s.s. any thoughts on that mold? I'm just going to take out the hut because theres no springs in there yet, and they can hide among the rocks.


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