# Meet Marble!



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I'd like to introduce Marble. He is one HUGE froglet! I imagine there must be something wrong with him and intend on going on a search of the boards later. But, for now...here he is. He's in a tank with several other froglets that came out of the water within the last week to 2 1/2 weeks. He acts totally normal, gets around fine (believe it or not he can jump!), and (of course!) is a great eater. All of the other froglets are normal in appearance and weight.


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Woah! That's a huge... Froglet..
Thyroid problem??? Good luck with him


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

motydesign said:


> Woah! That's a huge... Froglet..
> Thyroid problem??? Good luck with him


No something is causing fluid retention. 


Ed


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## Hoodsquirrel (Jul 28, 2011)

Wow he's a huge one. :O Hope everything goes well with him


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Well...I spent this afternoon jumping on and off of here to try to find out what could possibly be wrong with him. It sounds like he has bloat...but in every thread that I read on it the affected frog also had other symptoms. Marble does not seem ill in any way...he eats, sleeps, and runs around as the other froglets do...he's just huge!

I found the "Emergency Supportive Care" thread...but it was not very helpful. 10 of the 18 links at the bottom of the thread did not work. 

I've read some about Amphibian Ringers Solution and Calcium Gluconate...but it sounds as if those are for frogs who are lethargic and/or anorexic. He's neither of those.

So...I am unsure exactly what I need to do, if anything. There are no ARAV vets close to me, so if something does need to be done, I imagine it will be through emailing Dr. Frye.

Has anyone else experienced this? Where a newly morphed froglet appeared healthy in every way except for being huge? As I said before, none of the others are like this. :/


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Assuming the frog doesn't have a disease, what Ed is driving at is that the frog may have organ malfunction. The kidneys are the most likely cause of fluid retention, but a heart defect can also cause it. I doubt very much that it can be treated, but then again it may never kill the frog. In any case, I wouldn't breed from this individual.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The shape of the body is a clear indication that it is retaining fluids for some reason. To rule out the cause, you will need to have a vet pull some of the fluids out to check them for bacteria and/or imbalances in ions. 

Amphibian Ringer's solution is used to help frogs regulate thier osmotic issues as it is isotonic to the fluids unlike all of the other types of water used by the hobby which are hypotonic. Since the frog isn't being kept wet, it should be able to eliminate the excess fluids, since it is obviously accumulating them, it is indicative of an issue. Under the direction of a vet it is possible to help a frog lose fluids by using hypertonic ARS as that assists the frog in losing excess water balance. 

As for why the frog is still eating and not being lethargic is potentially due to the frog not having a severe infection. If the cause is not sufficient to make the frog really sick at this point, it will continue to act normally and feed. 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Okay...

Organ malfunction (heart/kidneys) I could see being a cause. However, if it were bacteria...wouldn't all of the froglets in this tank be affected?

The ARS may help him out by making him more comfortable then?

And...breeding him was the furthest thing from my mind at this point. He just morphed out within the last couple of weeks! (But, yeah, I see what you're saying.)


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

He's just big boned......LOL. He is kinda cute, hope you get it all figured out Wendy.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I thought I suggested you not to use the growth hormones.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Okay...
> 
> Organ malfunction (heart/kidneys) I could see being a cause. However, if it were bacteria...wouldn't all of the froglets in this tank be affected?
> 
> ...


No, if it was bacteria, or even a virus it wouldn't necessarily show up in all of the froglets. Metamorphs are under a lot of stress as there are significant stressors to the system, including but not limited to hormonal and changes to the immune function of the frog. (Tadpoles: The Biology of Anuran Larva is a good read for those who are interested in some of the generalities and specifics of a wide range of tadpoles.). 

Another potential source is liver failure or dysfunction, as are hypovitaminosis or hypervitaminosis of one or more of the fat soluble vitamins and/or parasites. If you are going to use the ARS, the froglet has to be moved to an enclosure where you can change the substrate daily. 



Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Okay...so I found this...
Fisher Scientific - Search Results

Would the last one (Frog: 500mL) be the one I need? Will it be enough? The first two listed are way more expensive. I'm thinking they are just larger quantities and not different meds...but there's no description for them.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Ed wrote an article for us on this over at Caudata.org a few years ago. There's a recipe for Ringers solution at the bottom of the article: Caudata Culture Articles: Bloat


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks, John, but unfortunately I'm not very "scientific". I don't really have a clue as to what those ingredients are much less have a scale that weighs in grams. I think I'd be better off (and the frog, too) just buying something pre-mixed.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

And you're certain this couldn't be an azureus x pacman hybrid? 

Best of luck with the little guy.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I know...he looks like a froglet on steroids! 

I never noticed an unusually large tad...so something must've happened during morphing. Poor lil guy...he's so cute, and I feel badly for him. I don't understand how something could go wrong with one when they all were raised the exact same way.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

What is the prognosis for a condition like this? I saw Ed said he may live without obvious signs of stress, etc. Could this potentially correct itself as long as he remains active/feeding, etc? Thanks! 

Best of luck Wendy!

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Thanks, John, but unfortunately I'm not very "scientific". I don't really have a clue as to what those ingredients are much less have a scale that weighs in grams. I think I'd be better off (and the frog, too) just buying something pre-mixed.


You should be able to order all of those ingredients from Fisher. None of them if I remember correctly should be restricted. They allow you to save a lot of money in the long run by making up ARS as needed and it also enables you to make hypertonic ARS which can be used under the supervision of a vet to help reduce excess fluid retention.

Otherwise, you can order the premixed ARS and keep the frog on it to hopefully help it manage it's fluid retention. It will require that you change the substrate every day and replace the ARS. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> What is the prognosis for a condition like this? I saw Ed said he may live without obvious signs of stress, etc. Could this potentially correct itself as long as he remains active/feeding, etc? Thanks!
> 
> Best of luck Wendy!
> 
> JBear


It depends on the cause, in some the prognosis is poor without treatment, but in others the frog may persist for a long period of time before it's fluid retention becomes sufficient to reduce the quality of life, or it could even recover. 

Ed


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