# HELP with QUARANTINE tank



## jnfr4mom (Feb 21, 2010)

Looking to get some wild caught tinc. would like some hints on a Q/T tank
What is the BEST set up? size and type of tank 
How to treat?
How long do they have to be in Q/T? 
Would it be best to put the Q/T tank in a different room?


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I use 190 oz. Containers from joshesfrogs for my quarantine. Each frog gets their own container. I just use moist paper towel To make it easy to find fecals. I also add leaf litter for them to hide in. Then I get a fecal sample done on them. If they are healthy, and the fecal comes back negative then I would just quarantine them for a couple weeks to a month just to be sure they are eating and doing good. If they do intact have parasites or something bad, then treat them with whatever you need to, and about once a week switch them into a new clean enclosure, and clean their old ones with 10% bleach solution. After about a month get another fecal sample done to see if they are now healthy. Be careful purchasing W/C frogs, lots of them do have parasites.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

For health reasons, I find it helps avoid stress to use a moderately planted glass tank (Petco has $10 per gallon sales, and you can get a top to fit). 
Also, I use magnolia leaves instead of the paper towels since they do not have the harmful byproduct known as dioxin, which is created during the bleaching process. I don't think it's fair to make the frogs sit on that stuff for three months.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can also use unbleached paper towels (the brown ones) as they have not been bleached. 

Depending on what you are treating and how, I would strongly suggest sterilizing the container immediately after treating the frog (If you are using dusted flies then that becomes more problematic) to prevent reinfections by some parasites. If it isn't easily sterilized everything in the quarantine container should be discarded (plant cuttings, leaves etc), as a consequence I use small plastic snake hide boxes for refuges for the frogs. 

I typically use several sterilite containers with either one or two frogs per container. When I treat I move the frog(s) to a new container and sterilize the occupied container. 

I would be careful using plant cuttings or leaves since if they aren't well sterilized they can allow free living (non-infectious) nematodes to colonize the enclosures which can give false positives on fecal checks. 

Also a clean fecal doesn't mean the frog is free of parasites, it just means the frog didn't shed any in that fecal. Typically Zoos use a three fecal check requirement before they release a frog from quarantine. The fecals need to be at least on week apart. 

If the frogs are in poor condition, you may want to consider setting up a long-term temporary enclosure to allow the frogs to adapt to captivity before instituting a full scale quarantine. These cages should not be elaborate since anything that cannot be sterilized will end up being discarded.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> I would be careful using plant cuttings or leaves since if they aren't well sterilized they can allow free living (non-infectious) nematodes to colonize the enclosures which can give false positives on fecal checks.


While paper towels need to be changed out every few days to keep bacterial growth in check (which can stress the frogs and increase the chances of their escape), leaves can be left as they are for the full 3-month quarantine period provided waste is misted off the surfaces or removed on occasion.

It is always good to boil and bake the leaves before putting them into any enclosure as well. There may be a low disease risk to your tropical vivarium plants as well from not doing this, especially from oak leaves.
Always use dried leaves, not green leaves, when laying down leaf litter. This is for the health of your frogs and plants.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> While paper towels need to be changed out every few days to keep bacterial growth in check (which can stress the frogs and increase the chances of their escape), leaves can be left as they are for the full 3-month quarantine period provided waste is misted off the surfaces or removed on occasion.
> 
> It is always good to boil and bake the leaves before putting them into any enclosure as well. There may be a low disease risk to your tropical vivarium plants as well from not doing this, especially from oak leaves.
> Always use dried leaves, not green leaves, when laying down leaf litter. This is for the health of your frogs and plants.



Actually if the frogs have parasites you can't leave any substrate in the quarantine enclosure between treatments as you will encourage reinfection. 

On what premise are you basing the idea that your magnolia leaves are not going to magnify bacterial populations the same as paper towels? 

On what premise are you basing the claim that oak leaves are more of a disease risk than any other dried leaf?


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Ed said:


> Depending on what you are treating and how, I would strongly suggest sterilizing the container immediately after treating the frog (If you are using dusted flies then that becomes more problematic) to prevent reinfections by some parasites.


Ed, 
If you move the frogs to a new container immediately after treatment, won't they just pass parasites into the new container with their first stool? Will the parasites and their eggs be killed immediately after treatment before any can be shed in the next stool?
How quickly after being shed can they reinfect?
I understand moving them to a new container immediately, because their current container is infected, just wondering how quickly you should move them again to prevent reinfection from any new sheds?
Thanks


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## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

For hides in quarantine, I use plastic cups of different sizes, some cut in half. A little bit like fake leaf litter... Cheap, and easily disposed of. Spaghnum moss for substrate usually too...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> Ed,
> If you move the frogs to a new container immediately after treatment, won't they just pass parasites into the new container with their first stool? Will the parasites and their eggs be killed immediately after treatment before any can be shed in the next stool?
> How quickly after being shed can they reinfect?
> I understand moving them to a new container immediately, because their current container is infected, just wondering how quickly you should move them again to prevent reinfection from any new sheds?
> Thanks


The risk is reduced as the frog's have the medication in thier system particularly if you are working with a systemic like ivermectin. Even fenebendazole (panacure) has a halflife in the body before it is excreted so this provides protection against immediate reinfection. 

It also depends on what you are treating the frogs for.. some like Rhabdias and hookworms have a greater chance of reinfection inbetween treatments as they can directly parasitize the frog through contact with the substrate. If they have something like those, then discuss the impact on the frogs of the need to change the enclosure more frequently with your vet. Each frog may require some variation as it also depends on the adaption of the frog. It doesn't do the frog a lot of good if you are changing enclosures every two days to avoid reinfection risks but the frog stops eating for the whole treatment period....


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Ed said:


> ... some like Rhabdias and hookworms have a greater chance of reinfection inbetween treatments as they can directly parasitize the frog through contact with the substrate. If they have something like those, then discuss the impact on the frogs of the need to change the enclosure more frequently with your vet. ....


If hookworm eggs are shed and hatch in the substrate, how soon can they re-parasitize? assuming an untreated frog...How long can they live in the substrate without a host? 1. assuming wet paper towels...2. assuming nourished soil... Can they regenerate without a host? 
I would think removal of all fecals as soon as possible would be less stressing to the frog than frequent replacement of the towels.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Ed said:


> If the frogs are in poor condition, you may want to consider setting up a long-term temporary enclosure to allow the frogs to adapt to captivity before instituting a full scale quarantine.


This is interesting. 
I assume you are indicating if they are in poor condition, the added stress of quarantining and treatment may kill them or at least make them worse off.
What would you base your decision on? Without at least a quick fecal, how would you know if a frog was simply malnourished, dehydrated and stressed or in need of treatment?
or are you saying you may delay full quarantine and treatment even with parasites present if the frog looked as though quarantine and treatment would do more harm?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Actually if the frogs have parasites you can't leave any substrate in the quarantine enclosure between treatments as you will encourage reinfection


Yes, thank you for adding that, I forgot to write it last time. I've never had to deal with parasites in quarantine with my limited collection, so it slipped my mind. Definitely change it out in the case of infection.



> On what premise are you basing the idea that your magnolia leaves are not going to magnify bacterial populations the same as paper towels?
> 
> On what premise are you basing the claim that oak leaves are more of a disease risk than any other dried leaf?


I am not meaning to suggest that the mag. leaves are going to be some sort of 'substitute' for good QT practice, such as changing the substrate out--sorry if I implied that. 

Paper towels have a composition that is more conducive to bacterial growth than do leaves--they are more porous, multi-layered and more absorbent in general. They also break down faster than leaves, notwithstanding the action of isopods or other decomposers.

Magnolia leaves inhibit bacterial growth to some degree, namely staphylococcus aureus.
Botanical medicine in clinical practice - Google Books

There was a chemical known as cyclocolorenone found in Magnolia grandis which serves as an antimicrobial agent. 
AGRIS repository search result
Additionally, tannic acids released as the leaf decays help with this as well, do they not?

I'm only comparing oak leaves to magnolia leaves, sorry if that wasn't clear. Oak leaves are susceptible to more diseases that I've observed than magnolia trees are. That's just from my personal observation, not a tried-and-true absolute, I suppose.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> Paper towels have a composition that is more conducive to bacterial growth than do leaves--they are more porous, multi-layered and more absorbent in general. They also break down faster than leaves, notwithstanding the action of isopods or other decomposers.n


Breakdown of the structure can't be used as indication of higher bacterial load when you are working with a material that breaks down in water over time... 

The whole bacteria thing gets tossed around a lot as a negative but people don't bother to really think about what it actually means. If we think about it, we should actually be encouraging the growth of a biofilm on the bottom of the enclosure (not necessarily quarantine enclosures) as much of this biofilm is going to be the same bacteria that convert nitrogenous wastes in aquarium filters and soil. The formation and sustained biofilm is actually beneficial to the enclosure as it helps prevent buildup of ammonia or nitrite. 




earthfrog said:


> Magnolia leaves inhibit bacterial growth to some degree, namely staphylococcus aureus.
> Botanical medicine in clinical practice - Google Books


So do oak leaves. The hulls contain the same humic acids as do the leaves see Fulltext for example of the reaction of the hulls... 




earthfrog said:


> I'm only comparing oak leaves to magnolia leaves, sorry if that wasn't clear. Oak leaves are susceptible to more diseases that I've observed than magnolia trees are. That's just from my personal observation, not a tried-and-true absolute, I suppose.


How many of these are transmittable to the frogs?


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

to the OP, why WC??? why not a "perfectly" healthy CB frog?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Breakdown of the structure can't be used as indication of higher bacterial load when you are working with a material that breaks down in water over time...
> 
> The whole bacteria thing gets tossed around a lot as a negative but people don't bother to really think about what it actually means. If we think about it, we should actually be encouraging the growth of a biofilm on the bottom of the enclosure (not necessarily quarantine enclosures) as much of this biofilm is going to be the same bacteria that convert nitrogenous wastes in aquarium filters and soil. The formation and sustained biofilm is actually beneficial to the enclosure as it helps prevent buildup of ammonia or nitrite.


I was concerned for the more harmful bacteria that come from human skin, e.g. staph and strep. 
I am all for encouraging good gut and skin flora and fauna.
(There is a guy named Reid Harris that is working with pedobacter, which has been shown to prevent chytrid infection--I hope he gets around to using PDFs for research as well. I have volunteered my own frogs and he has forwarded my offer to his research team.) 



> So do oak leaves. The hulls contain the same humic acids as do the leaves see Fulltext for example of the reaction of the hulls...


Yeah, I know. 
I used a bunch of live oak leaves in my betta bowl the other day. I think it's time to take them out since it is getting pretty dark in there. 




> How many of these are transmittable to the frogs?


I was actually concerned for the live plants in the enclosure.
I have some endangered plants in my viv, so it comes to mind.

Thanks again, Ed!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> I was concerned for the more harmful bacteria that come from human skin, e.g. staph and strep.
> I am all for encouraging good gut and skin flora and fauna.


I would be much more concerned with Aeromonus and Pseudomonads



earthfrog said:


> I was actually concerned for the live plants in the enclosure.
> I have some endangered plants in my viv, so it comes to mind.
> 
> Thanks again, Ed!


I wouldn't be that concerned...


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