# Is sluggo safe?



## markbudde

I came across this article today, which I found interesting. It supports my obseervations that sluggo is toxic to all sorts of microfauna. I added some sluggo the other day for the first time in years and today I found a large dead slug on the glass wall. I also found a dead amphipod. 

Last time I added sluggo I noticed a dramatic decrease in microfauana, but wasn't sure if it was correlated. 

Iron Phosphate Slug Bait Warning

-Mark


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## porkchop

As i justed added petri's w/ beer to 3 tanks, due to snails w/ expensive taste. 
Would it be wise or ok to create something similar to an ant trap out of petri dish w/lid and some Sluggo?

That way frogs safe and micro fauna safe, hoping sluggo would actually attract only slug/snails into openings if it actually kills them.

I will test this and report back as i have the a darn good reason for the test.


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## frogparty

YIKES!!! Looks like Im not using THAT in my garden anymore


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## littlefrog

I've used sluggo in tanks without any problem.

Is it safe? Safer than metaldehyde, for sure. I'm comfortable with sluggo, better than slugs. Of course the best way is to not put any slugs or snails in to begin with...

I have used lettuce leaves (iceberg or romaine) to trap mollusks before. Cheap, easy, and if you pick off the critters and squish them, you can even reuse the leaves for a week or so.

Rob


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## Julio

i have used it in several tanks had no affect on any of the frogs in there, however had little affect on the snails it self.


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## porkchop

Ahhhhhh...Good to know Julio,
Cuz i got lots of the little bas$#@#ds
need to get rid of em, as im just throwin money away.
Might just have to redo tanks.


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## Julio

what i have done recently and it has been working pretty well, is i put several slices of potatoes in the tank and clean them off in the mornings with tons of snails, lately its been less and less so its been working well.


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## markbudde

I've spent A LOT of time trying to get rid of slugs. If you have time and patience, I think baiting with vegetables and removing the slugs in the morning is the most effective way. But you have to keep up with it or you end up just feeding them. When I kept it up for over a month, I was able to take my snail population from over 200 to under 10 adults. I bet if I kept it up for 6 months of so, I could have gotten them all, but a man only has so much patience.

Here is a detailed view of what I have tried...
How to remove snails and slugs from your terrarium - GlassTropics.com

And about half of what I pulled out with lettuce...









In my experience, iceberg lettuce and fancy lettuce work better than romaine, since the slugs will hang out in the furrows. I was really just posting this here because I had always wondered how sluggo managed to kill slugs without being toxic to other species.


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## candm519

I googled around for some addresses, and sent out three inquiries, asking "Does Sluggo contain EDTA?"

Response 1: (I can't evaluate this; I can't remember or never learned this chemistry)
***********
Ann,
I apologize for the delayed response; we researched your query for best answer.
In short, no it does not.
Here is the response we received from the manufacturer:
Sluggo does not, when Iron has EDTA it is not organic. Sluggo and Sluggo Plus has just Iron Phosphate.

Thanks!
Andrea Hufferd
Monterey Lawn & Garden Products
(559) 499-2100

Monterey Lawn and Garden Products, Inc.

This simply means that Sluggo contains organic Iron Phosphate, therefore it does not contain EDTA.
Thank you!
Tommy
Professional Pest Control Products
800-434-4555
Pestproducts.com - Professional Pest Control Products And Advice
**************************************************************************

Response #2:
***********

Dear Anne,

Before I share with you confidential information about our inerts can you tell me who you are and what your concern is?

Thanks
Cam



Cam Wilson
Chief Technical Officer
Neudorff North America
***************************************************************************
SAY WHAT?? I answered,

Who I am is a concerned person. 
I rely on Sluggo to keep the slugs and snails from eating tropical orchids I keep in terrariums, and trusted that the safety claims were true. 
I have touted the product to many people who have greenhouses and outside gardens as well as dogs and other animals who might get at it.

I recently read that Sluggo and Escar-go both contain EDTA. and that is the ingredient that combines with iron to make it work. And that EDTA/iron combination is harmful to earthworms and larger animals. I wondered if people were getting overexcited about it before knowing what they are talking about.

I am trying to find out if the products contain EDTA to begin with, and if so, if it truly is an active facilitator. 

Your response makes me itchy. Why should your 'inert' ingredients be secret? Who do I have to be for you to supply the information?

Thank you.
Anne
**************************************************************************

I'll keep you updated about what Cam says, and when/if my third one gets a response.


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## candm519

I received an immediate response from Cam:
**************************
Dear Anne,

Thanks for your follow-up. I was merely following protocol. 

Sluggo does contain the ingredient EDTA but it does not react with the iron phosphate to form iron chelate. Iron phosphate on its own is active. The EDTA aids in absorption of the iron phosphate in the slugs/snails gut. 

The European authorities as well as the EPA and USDA's National Organics Standards Board have recently confirmed iron phosphate as the only active in Sluggo. 

Sluggo can be used around animals and earthworms. Unfortunately the makes of metaldehyde, Lonza are making slanderous remarks about iron bait. They have a fear that when we are off patent in 2014 many iron baits will enter the market and their metaldehyde will be of no use. Incidentally metaldehyde is very toxic to mammals and fish and has groundwater and food residue issues. We have refuted the Lonza funded reports in each case. 

Regarding the inerts: sometimes it takes years of research and millions of dollars to develop effective products. Patents are good but it doesn't help us in all cases. Trade secrets are sometimes just as valuable. The EPA and State agencies are provide with all formula information. 

I can send you more specific information next Wed when I am back in the office but in the meantime if you have any further concerns feel free to contact me. 

Thanks
Cam
****************************************************************************
Another 'say what?' from me here, but merely because I don't understand the chemistry.
Is this the same thing the first response was saying?


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## candm519

I sent Cam the original link Mark posted, Iron Phosphate Slug Bait Warning, and he answered;

Anne,

Yes the internet has its strengths and weaknesses. The Meyer article is another example of how Lonza is attacking the iron baits. Incidentally Meyer worked for Dow for years and was one of the guys that said 2,4-D is perfectly safe. Ontario, Canada banned 2,4-D for home use last year based on information from the Cdn Cancer Society. 

Thanks
Cam


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## markbudde

Thanks Anne. I guess it goes to show that you never know who you can trust, and what peoples motives are.

Has anyone ever tried metaldehyde based poisons in their tanks?


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## candm519

Now that (metaldehyde) has a really bad reputation. This is my unresearched opinion, based on general things I've heard and read -- but not questioned. But I've never wanted to use it.

Then again, a tank without animals is a closed system that my dog couldn't get into. I don't know how it affects other microfauna, or how long it stays in its dangerous form before breaking down, or how to handle it safely. Those are things I would want to know.

Maybe in some situations metaldehyde would be an appropriate choice.


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## candm519

My last word: I finally got a response from my third request, this to the makers of Escar-go, (equivalent to Sluggo). 
My reaction? I would not use the improved version, especially outside.

They sent a copy of the label for Escar-go 'Supreme', which has been improved by adding another product, 'Spinosad'. (Sluggo also makes 'Sluggo-Plus' is essentially the same.) 

The improved version label mentions acute aquatic toxicity, plus gives several handling cautions and special disposal instructions. The label says it kills "earwigs, cutworms, sowbugs, pillbugs, slugs, snails" -- that adds a few victims. 

Then I checked Wikipedia for the additive specifically.
Spinosad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wiki report adds to the victim list 'fruit flies, caterpillars, leafminers, thrips, sawflies, spider mites, fire ants, and leaf beetle larvae'. 

And then, honeybees.

"However, it is highly toxic to bees (honey bee LC50 = 11.5 ppm)...applications to areas where bees are actively foraging should be avoided. After the residues have dried, it is much less toxic to bees."

My conclusion is in this case, 'improvement' may not be better. Read labels, then read beyond the labels.


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## Truthseeker

Hi Anne,

I copied the following from the Neudorff patent for its iron phosphate slug baits. It looks like their own words clear this up. Edetic acid is also known as EDTA. 

Ingestible mollusc poisons - Patent 5437870

United States Patent 5437870 

"An effective, readily ingested molluscicidal bait poison includes an inert mollusc bait and *two active ingredient* precursors. These precursors are edible and *non-toxic to terrestrial molluscs when consumed alone*. However, the composition which includes the two precursors is fatally toxic to terrestrial molluscs. One precursor is a simple iron compound, while the other precursor is selected from edetic acid, its hydroxyethyl derivatives and salts of these acids. In another embodiment a single active ingredient may replace the two precursors. This active ingredient may include ferric edetate and the ferric hydroxyethyl derivative of edetic acid."

"What is claimed is:

"1. A terrestrial mollusc stomach poison composition, comprising 
a simple iron compound selected from the group consisting of iron proteins, iron carbohydrates, and iron salts, *which, alone, have little or no toxicity to the molluscs*; a second component selected from the group consisting of edetic acid, hydroxyethyl derivative of edetic acid, or salts thereof..."


Truth


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## markbudde

There is very little published about the toxicity of iron phosphate baits to non-mollusks. There is at least one reference which claims it is toxic to earthworms and I have not seen many showing how safe it is. I can say that both times that I heavily sluggoed my viv I saw a huge springtail dieoff and some slugs remained. When I get some time I am going to do a controlled experiment with one bin of springtails with sluggo and another without, and check the results.
-Mark


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## Bcs TX

> When I get some time I am going to do a controlled experiment with one bin of springtails with sluggo and another without, and check the results.


Have you completed your study Mark?


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## Steverd

I know this is an old thread, but wondering if you could assassin snails? They work great in my plant aquariums. But I don't know if they can live out of water for long? Plus they are cool looking.


Steve


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