# Kingsnake Ad



## Trey (Sep 10, 2008)

Hey everyone, Im going to be getting some FR pumilio imports in the next week here from this ad. 

kingsnake.com Classifieds: Orange/Strawberry Dart Frogs: $60

I was just wondering if anyone here has recieved frogs from him. From the email conversations ive had with him, he seems like a nice credible guy. So im pretty much just wondering if anybody else has delt with him and what your opinions are on the frogs etc.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Pm sent....


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

PM sent.......


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

I wouldnt anymore, You will prolly end up with very skinny frogs like I did...I didnt get mines from this guy tho.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Check fauna good guy/bad guy forum when ordering from people either on here or kingsnake: Board of Inquiry® - FaunaClassifieds


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

When I looked at the ad - the first thing I thought is "You get what you pay for".





joshsfrogs said:


> Check fauna good guy/bad guy forum when ordering from people either on here or kingsnake: Board of Inquiry® - FaunaClassifieds


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Just my opinion, but why not spend the extra cash for peace of mind and buy CB pumilio, since they are widely available.


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## TonyT (Feb 16, 2004)

Let us know how this turns out for you. I have been interested in some stuff off of there as well.

TonyT


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## TonyT (Feb 16, 2004)

Any frogs yet? If so how did they turn out?

TonyT


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Tony,

Are you serious?

You've been on this board for 5 years, right?


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## TonyT (Feb 16, 2004)

And in the hobby for 7. I just want some feed back on what he got. 



TonyT


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Where exactly are these magical farms that grow Poison Dart Frogs? Maybe they're collected in Coffee and Cacao plantations....Those are farms, right? Oh, yeah, but then there was a rainforest there before that and the frogs lived in the rainforest before the forests were destroyed to make way for Coffee and Cacao plantations?

Who is really kidding who with all this "farm-raised" stuff? It's all wild collected.

Richard in Staten Island.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

TonyT said:


> I just want some feed back on what he got.


I think...and, I'm guessing here....that he said to himself, something like:

Hmmm...I got about a half dozen quick emails from fellow hobbyists telling me that I am probably going to, first, get all male frogs and Not a pair even though that's what was promised over the phone or email. I will ask for a pic and IF I get sent one...I bet it won't look anything like the frog(s)that arrive in the shipping box.....then they will most likely be in rough shape. Skinny, heavily parasitized and stressed...not acclimated ect ect, from a jobber and not even a breeder let alone a fellow hobbyist. That I will most likely not be satisfied and a refund or compensation should something go wrong will probably not happen.

...and didn't think further on the matter and went to a local frogger meet to see frogs and hobbyists up close and in person with his hard earned money instead.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Woodsman said:


> Where exactly are these magical farms that grow Poison Dart Frogs? Maybe they're collected in Coffee and Cacao plantations....Those are farms, right? Oh, yeah, but then there was a rainforest there before that and the frogs lived in the rainforest before the forests were destroyed to make way for Coffee and Cacao plantations?
> 
> Who is really kidding who with all this "farm-raised" stuff? It's all wild collected.
> 
> Richard in Staten Island.


There has been a pic posted of what is claimed to be a farm in panama. I can't remember where it is posted on the forum though. It wasn't much more then a greenhouse style enclosure that supposedly is farmed for offspring.


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

stemcellular said:


> Just my opinion, but why not spend the extra cash for peace of mind and buy CB pumilio, since they are widely available.


Thats the same thing I thought soon as I seen the frogs I got. 
Like my sig says "Only if you knew better, you would do better" I know not to mess with kingsnake anymore!


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## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

I've actually worked with him and these frogs are El Dorados according to Marcus. I picked up 3 pairs from him and all are doing well. One pair has actually bred.
I will preface this with other dealings that; be VERY specific on a pair meaning male and female if they can guarentee a pair and in writing what happens if they are wrong. Deal with American Express as they have a no quibble refund policy. Yes indeed some of the vendors are one step above a gutter, I won't mention names, but just protect yourself as you need to do with any transaction, so you get what you are told you are getting.
I personally have bought much from DTS and have always found them fair.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Besides it being a kingsnake ad, there are a couple other things that bother me not including the list of things phil mentioned.

First it says they are eating small crickets, IME with pumilio they seems to prefer smaller food items like springs and melan ff's

Second they don't even mention what mroph they are, these frogs could eb several differnt morphs and you woulnd't know any better because they are going to tell you they are all from the same "farm"

Lastly I bet if you asked the guy selling them if he could explain the husbandry requirements he probably wouldn't know exactly what he was talking about.

I've learned the hard way ( not with frogs but geckos and chameleons) that is is better to buy from those you know or trust than and pay a little more for peace of mind and quality animals than to try to get a deal. When it comes to live animals you can't pass on qaulity, healthy specimens


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

The ONLY morph info you are going to get is: "Red" , "Blue" ect....

and forget location data....lol.......good luck with that.


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## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

Not to defend but to understand:

1.Yes my pumillios do indeed eat small crickets. El Dorados are bigger.
2. When asked what variety they are, they will usually never pin down a variety due to how they are caught. The importers with my understanding buy from locals who are not going to tell then where they were caught as that area they do not want the area to be seen stripped of frogs by other individuals. Scandelous yes practical yes. Then there are language barriers as well as frogs being exchanged through many hands etc.
I write this not to defend but to enlighten those who do not know the process on how we get these little gems. There are great stories out there from older importers on availability of almost anything if the "conditions" are right. I have had great conversations with the importers on the process and it is full of characters, some good some not so good.
3. These individuals are importers NOT breeders, so in general the care and breeding is best left to those who breed. Its kinda like going to a food store and asking how eggs are processed, they just provide them.

To tell individuals not to use a source leaves out a whole side of frog keeping which are the individuals involved and the stories they tell. Swapping stories with Sean or Marcus about what going into frog selling is one of the delights of this hobby.

No the imports I doubt will ever get the care that a private breeder does give them, and yes it is best unless one is willing to risk loss in monies and frogs to stick to the known breeders, but don't discount "kingsnake" as you will find many of our best breeders do advertise and sell on there. And no I do not work for the kingsnake folk.

Perhaps I should add, stick to the known sources if you are new to the hobby and can't afford risks, venture out if you are willing to afford the risks involved and hear some great stories. E.g.,I just picked up darklands from a importer for MUCH less then known sources, and compared to my existing pairs they are identical As well as having now a different genetic base to breed from.


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## TonyT (Feb 16, 2004)

I didn't mean to ruffle anyones feathers hear. I KNOW what he PROBABLY got. I just was curious as to how it turned out for him. I would not risk my small but humble collection with something that could potentially destroy it. I've been in the hobby long enough to know a little about a little. 

TonyT


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## Trey (Sep 10, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> I think...and, I'm guessing here....that he said to himself, something like:
> 
> Hmmm...I got about a half dozen quick emails from fellow hobbyists telling me that I am probably going to, first, get all male frogs and Not a pair even though that's what was promised over the phone or email. I will ask for a pic and IF I get sent one...I bet it won't look anything like the frog(s)that arrive in the shipping box.....then they will most likely be in rough shape. Skinny, heavily parasitized and stressed...not acclimated ect ect, from a jobber and not even a breeder let alone a fellow hobbyist. That I will most likely not be satisfied and a refund or compensation should something go wrong will probably not happen.
> 
> ...and didn't think further on the matter and went to a local frogger meet to see frogs and hobbyists up close and in person with his hard earned money instead.




Hmm that is pretty much exactly what i thought! lol. But if i cant find anyone shipping breeding pairs (not trios) in the next couple of weeks i may have to go ahead and give DTS a shot, regardless of all of the negative feedback i have read about Dan Scolaro.

Besides im pretty secure in my ability to treat and care for WC (or FR for those who are picky about irrelevant specifics) animals.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> The ONLY morph info you are going to get is: "Red" , "Blue" ect....
> 
> and forget location data....lol.......good luck with that.


And if we're really honest, "El Dorado" is just as useful as "blue" or "red."


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Tony,

No ruffling here, I assure you.....only dialog and learning.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Trey said:


> Hmm that is pretty much exactly what i thought! lol. But if i cant find anyone shipping breeding pairs (not trios) in the next couple of weeks i may have to go ahead and give DTS a shot, regardless of all of the negative feedback i have read about Dan Scolaro.


Careful about the names. I just used Kingsnake as an example and since the OP did. We could easily be talking about other online markets like Fauna Classifieds...and yes...there are good reputable people who advertise in both, I'm sure. Again, not the venue.....



Trey said:


> Besides im pretty secure in my ability to treat and care for WC (or FR for those who are picky about irrelevant specifics) animals.


But you still may encounter the usual " Different frog that's in the pic" or worse yet.....a drab colourless animal that you are completely unhappy with...sight unseen.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bruce said:


> Not to defend but to understand:
> 
> 1.Yes my pumillios do indeed eat small crickets. El Dorados are bigger.
> 2. When asked what variety they are, they will usually never pin down a variety due to how they are caught. The importers with my understanding buy from locals who are not going to tell then where they were caught as that area they do not want the area to be seen stripped of frogs by other individuals. Scandelous yes practical yes. Then there are language barriers as well as frogs being exchanged through many hands etc.
> ...


You are dead-on with all of the above.



bruce said:


> To tell individuals not to use a source leaves out a whole side of frog keeping which are the individuals involved and the stories they tell. Swapping stories with Sean or Marcus about what going into frog selling is one of the delights of this hobby.
> 
> No the imports I doubt will ever get the care that a private breeder does give them, and yes it is best unless one is willing to risk loss in monies and frogs to stick to the known breeders, but don't discount "kingsnake" as you will find many of our best breeders do advertise and sell on there. And no I do not work for the kingsnake folk.
> 
> Perhaps I should add, stick to the known sources if you are new to the hobby and can't afford risks, venture out if you are willing to afford the risks involved and hear some great stories. E.g.,I just picked up darklands from a importer for MUCH less then known sources, and compared to my existing pairs they are identical As well as having now a different genetic base to breed from.


Until you have seen the inside of an importer's warehouse, where 20 Pumilio are kept in a single "critter carrier", or heard horror stories of entire aged trees being axed all to snatch frogs out of high reaching broms...then you probably have little to no idea what goes on in the world of the importer.


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## Trey (Sep 10, 2008)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Trey
> ...



Oh well I used names, anyone who looks at the ad can see who is selling these, so i dont mind. But thank you for looking out.


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

Trey said:


> Hmm that is pretty much exactly what i thought! lol. But if i cant find anyone shipping breeding pairs (not trios) in the next couple of weeks i may have to go ahead and give DTS a shot, regardless of all of the negative feedback i have read about Dan Scolaro.
> 
> Besides im pretty secure in my ability to treat and care for WC (or FR for those who are picky about irrelevant specifics) animals.


Trey, I bought a few from DTS on 12/08, asked for a pair and received what I asked for. I also bought an extra one to add to the group. I even received one pumilio DOA, and it was replaced promptly. The male calls like you wouldn't believe and I find eggs regularly. No problems with DTS.


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## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

"Until you have seen the inside of an importer's warehouse, where 20 Pumilio are kept in a single "critter carrier", or heard horror stories of entire aged trees being axed all to snatch frogs out of high reaching broms...then you probably have little to no idea what goes on in the world of the importer. "

I used to import Blue and Gold Macaws in the seventies and do indeed know what goes on inside the import houses. I additionally used to import orchids that were "taken" from fallen trees so as to not perish in the sun, so yes I have a grand idea of what goes on in import houses and the few animals and plants that actually reach us in import. In the "OLD' days it was common to receive just about anything you wanted for a price. Shall I mention the many years breeding Australian grass finches and seeing importers conditions when bringing some new finches in? Most sources outstanding a few I visited, I could not wait to shower!

In some ways actually nothing has changed, but as we become more aware of our global condition wiser choices can be made, but we are but a tip of the iceberg and if you'll ask anyone who imports frogs in Europe, there is alot of looking the other way as to where frogs come from even to this day. You might even try looking in the Orient from my travels for that special "yellow" frog people are so fond of...........

Everything is out there, if you look hard enough and are willing to expend the cash.

Just an opinion.


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

skylsdale said:


> And if we're really honest, "El Dorado" is just as useful as "blue" or "red."


I might have to disagree on this. Not because i own Eldos, but because i spoke with macus breece on the phone about them. It is my understanding that he has all the location info on them, and has visited the location before. He told me he was not big on giving out all the information for fear of a swarm of collectors coming in and scooping them all up. He had people asking him "Where is El DOrado" as if it were an actual place

Are we going on the assumption that because El'Dorados are not named after their location, that makes them unclassified?


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## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

That's a good point you bring up and another reason to know where your stock comes from for further breeding partners if needed in the future, or at least who and when it was brought in. 
Confusing to me too are all the new auratus flooding the market now and will be additionally when Marcus comes back from vacation. I wonder it these will be named or rather just called site specific auratus as alot of them are now. I seem to be getting more and more tanks of green/black auratus that are not the green/black of yesteryear.
I guess alot will be shrouded in secrecy and history as with "Giant oranges and Reginas" from another thread. Depending on who one talks to they are; different morphs, a sub morph (whatever that means) or the same morph. And then there is what Europeans call them verses what Americans call them. I get so confused.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

MrGerbik said:


> I might have to disagree on this. Not because i own Eldos, but because i spoke with macus breece on the phone about them. It is my understanding that he has all the location info on them, and has visited the location before.


So how does that help anyone else out if only Marcus has the info? Simply describing them with a proper noun (El Dorado) rather than a basic adjective (gold) doesn't provide us with much useful information that would be beneficial in captively managing frogs from this population.



> He told me he was not big on giving out all the information for fear of a swarm of collectors coming in and scooping them all up.


The logic of this sounds reasonable, but I think it breaks down fairly quickly. You can visit various European website and find what looks to be the exact same morph we call "El Dorado," yet their frogs are actually labeled by locale designations because people have visited those areas and seen those frogs. And if your average person is happening to find and photograph them...I would guess that the smugglers are doing so just as easily, so I don't see how pseudonyms are doing much protecting. 

As far as the swarm of collectors...I could be completely wrong, but I thought Marcus purchased these from collectors, as did various other people and distributors. In other words, he didn't discover them and secretely import them and disseminate them into the hobby with everything being "hush hush" the entire time...instead, collectors collected them, sent them to the US, and Marcus was one of the hubs for them being distributed into the US hobby. In that case, they were already found by a "swarm of collectors" who scooped a bunch of them up. Again, I could be wrong, but this is what I recall happening with this morph of pumilio. Although the intentions might be good (and I assume they are), I really don't see how this does anything substantive for conservation or the well-being of the wild population.


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

From speaking to him it was my understanding that he often goes to these sites. I'm not saying he goes and collects, As far as importation and collection i am sure he does exactly like you said, however he knows the data

He had told me a story of a German fellow he had heard of (or saw i can't remeber exactly) showing up at these sites with a suitcase and just filling up. When he had asked around about how much this guy had actually been here, the people were saying they see him all the time.

I think its this kind of thing he was looking to prevent. If it was a case that only one Marcus knew the location info on El Dorados, that is still more than we have on those frogs labeled "red" or "blue". 

I see it as this. In this case we have an approachable importer with the knowledge of what he is importing. He is close to the hobby and if need be can be contacted for info. As far as the other unlabaled frogs...well where do you start? And would the people involved in them even care to give any info?


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> Just my opinion, but why not spend the extra cash for peace of mind and buy CB pumilio, since they are widely available.


in many ways wcs are a safer bet to go with in my opinion.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

*GREASER* said:


> in many ways wcs are a safer bet to go with in my opinion.


Why?.........


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

I ordered some from DTS and my experience was HORRIBLE!, very male heavy, very skinny, not anything like the photos given to me, i would ask for a photo of the exact ones he was going to send, i would get it, OKAY IT for those ones specifically in the photo, and the ones i received were not the ones he took a picture of. You get what you pay for!


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## Trey (Sep 10, 2008)

Just so everyone knows, I found a source for breeding pairs at a reasonable price, and i will not be purchasing any frogs through DTS. He would not take pictures of individual/specific frogs, and would not garuntee health or sex. The *majority* of feedback I hyave heard about DTS and Dan Scolaro was extremely negative, and I definatley took that into consideration. Thanks to everyone for replying to me on this matter, it is very much appreciated.


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