# ~What kind of trop. fish can live in tannin waters ?



## carlos (Nov 14, 2006)

~ Another newb question that seemed futile when searched for. 
I want to have a 4inch deep water pond section to the viv. I know nothing of brackish fish species that could live in vivs-- what seem to be the most hardy ?

thanks !
c


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## Max Power (Jul 22, 2006)

I'm not sure I understand, brackish and tannins arn't the same thing. Tannins are just organic material in the water, brackish water is dilute salt water. 

But if you want a blackwater pond (which is what I think you mean), I would just go with neon tetras or something similar. The pond will need to a decent size if it's only 4" deep, it will also need a filter. 

Good luck, it will look great if you pull it off!


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## thumbnail (Sep 18, 2005)

*tannin tolerant fish*

When I had a tank with a sufficient water feature I had Neon tetras, A mosquito fish, and a little rubber lipped pleco. I still have the pleco in my cichlid tank. I have heard of people putting numerous types of tetras and a few other small south american fish, but I have only tried the three up top of this post.


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## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

Hey can anyone tell me (not to hijack ) how many gallons a 6" deep pond in a thirty gallon tank would be? I want to stock it with some fish, but I don't know what kind of size I am working with. Thanks, and oh it's a hex tank


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Tannic water refers to the acidic water that is a brown color due to the tannins leaching from fallen leaves of the trees. It's the same as the infamous "blackwater" of the Amazon.

Brackish water refers to water that is partially salt water and partially fresh water and occurs in areas where freshwater bodies and saltwater bodies meet up... such as where rivers flow into seas. Marshes and bays in these areas are considered brackish, as the water is not mixed equality but rather has "layers" of water where fresh water flows on top of saltwater due to its different chemical properties. These are NOT the fish you are looking for.

Keeping tropical fish in the water areas of a fish tank still involves the same rules that apply to a fish tank, including the amount of water needed, keeping schooling fish in schools, water quality needs, and stocking of the water body. If you don't know what these needs are, please hit up your local library for some books on beginning fish keeping! A gallon or less puddle of water in your frog viv does not a fish tank make... Also, the smaller the water body, the harder it is to keep it balanced enough for the fish to do well long term. This is why 10 gallon fish tanks are so much harder than the same fish in a 75 gallon tank...

Another thing to consider... PDFs evolved their parental care as a means to take advantage of terrestrial niches available so that they could raise their young away from more permanent water sources that would hold predators... like fish. If you like the fish a lot, I'd try setting up a separate fish tank instead.


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## Max Power (Jul 22, 2006)

black_envy said:


> Hey can anyone tell me (not to hijack ) how many gallons a 6" deep pond in a thirty gallon tank would be? I want to stock it with some fish, but I don't know what kind of size I am working with. Thanks, and oh it's a hex tank


We can't say unless we know the dimensions of the tank, their foot prints vary. Also I don't know if you are filling the whole foot print or just a portion. Either way do the measurements and use this calculator http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/areajava.html.

Hope that helps

Edit: sorry i see its a hex tank, you migh have to do some math

1 cubic inch = 0.003 720 203 gallon [US, dry]


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## carlos (Nov 14, 2006)

*Thanks guys for the tips ! And your right ! what was I thinking BRACKISH / TANNIN WATER ?!?! hahaha Brackish is the kind of waters you get around esturaries. Tannins are the precoursors to "tea" water you often get in koi ponds and waters around vegetation matter that leach the tint. It's hell down here in South Texas with all the acorns and Oak leaves that will get into some of the ponds I create.
Thanks all for the great advice ! I'll look into the tetras. Not use to dealing with any watersource smaller than 2000gallons !  *


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## JackRent (Nov 15, 2006)

*volume*

In order to calculate gallons use L x W x H (in inches) / 231


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: volume*



JackRent said:


> In order to calculate gallons use L x W x H (in inches) / 231


Not so simple with a hex...

Just take the thirty gallons, divide it by the height in inches, and you will get how many gallons make an inch...double check though...I usually do it backwards!


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Easy! take the total height of the tank in inches, and divide it by 6. Now, divide 30 gallons by that number, and you'll have the volume in gallons.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Btw, Ive had alot of luck with white clouds in viv ponds, as they adapt to almost any conditions, and are as tough as nails, plus do great at temps from 60-80F. Just remember to keep up on those water changes, and make sure to give them enough room!


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## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

Thanks guys ^_^ I'll try those. I was thinking a betta or some guppies? It will be planted. Any other ideas for fish?


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## Max Power (Jul 22, 2006)

Certain species (smaller ones) of killifish would do great in there, they wouldn't need a heater either


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## DaFrogMan (Oct 8, 2004)

black_envy said:


> Thanks guys ^_^ I'll try those. I was thinking a betta or some guppies? It will be planted. Any other ideas for fish?


I don't know if I would use a betta - I have heard of some people using them. But have you ever put your finger in a betta bowl - they can give a pretty powerful bite for their size - wouldn't want them to bite a frog's foot.

Guppies would be a good idea - but the feeder guppies might be better off than the colorful ones (the feeders are a lot less fussy)


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2006)

id go with cardinal tetras over neons. they get a SLIGHTLY bit larger, but a more hardy fish in general. that or a cory cat. crazy little cracked out fish. i love them for my tanks.


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## Danyal (Apr 15, 2006)

try male endlers, they are very hardy, get maybe an inch long(smaller than a neon) and very colourful. basically a small guppy that looks like it get dipped in floresent paint. depending on the size of your pond you could probably keep a trio of them(unlike guppies, males aren't bothered by each other)


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Please remember that you should be putting as much research into the care of the fish as you are the care of the frogs... neons and cardinals especially make me cringe when mentioned for these tanks... these fish need schools (6+ animals) and do best in bodies of water 20 gallons or more with plenty of swim space and stable water quality... a school of clouds best in at least 10 gallons... the smaller endlers, guppies, and bettas would be better suited to the smaller bodies of water, don't need to school, can take the fluctuations of water quality better, and will enjoy nibbling on FFs. The "bite" of a betta is not something you really need to worry about with your frogs, they are not the size of a fruit fly and are not going to have chunks missing from them (I cannot guarantee the same for tadpoles that may be deposited). A female splendens or one of the more hardy species bettas may be better than the male splendens.

With all the research people seemed to be putting into making the frogs happy, I'm shocked at how little goes into tossing a fish in the water area of a tank.... these fish have needs too!


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## Max Power (Jul 22, 2006)

Ya I have to say I’m a little disappointed in myself, I shouldn’t have mentioned neons when the pond is only 4” deep… especially because I’ve been an aquarist for many years. I just mentioned it because if I were to do something like this, that is the fish I would choose for myself. I’d be more scared of one of my frogs jumping in and drowning… is this something you have to worry about.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> I’d be more scared of one of my frogs jumping in and drowning… is this something you have to worry about.


Not in my experience. Some frogs will swim and stay underwater for good lengths of time (ie Auratus). Two frogs batteling, that's a different story; you do need to worry about drowning. Females from the Tinc group of frogs have been known to do this to each other.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I started a thread on this and Corey made several excellent posts in it...searching should pull it up.

I am unsure of if I will do this myself(due to the fact that I'd like to see tadpoles in my water feature if possible, and its either one or the other...again, pull up the old thread)...but of the fish I have looked at killifish stand out as some of the best. I may be a bit biased though :lol: Rivulus occur in the same general area as many dartfrogs(probably don't meet in nature), stay away from the big ones and I imagine it would work. Some of the Rivulus come out onto land quite a bit and in the aquarium sometimes are found resting ontop of protruding leaves or sticking to the glass. Aphyosemion and Epiplatys annulatus also. No experience, but as Corey said some smaller bettas(perhaps some of the coccina group or little mouthbrooders like channoides?). Stray FF's and RFB should do the Rivulus good, the other two should probably get foods like BBs often since they aren't as eager to eat FF.


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## Reptilian (Oct 22, 2006)

I don't know about the fish in the dart frog viv but in my Fire bellied toad Viv I have a swordtail and a honey gourami, I'm going to be getting some cherry barbs.
Hope I helped.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I am actually rather shocked at the frogs living with the FBTs... I thought they were toxic enough to cause problems with other animals living with them. I do not know enough about these frogs in the wild to comment on if fish with these animals is a good thing or not, but I do know enough about the fish you've mentioned to worry about just the pure amount of space you have... I would not keep the gourami and school of cherry barbs in anything less than 10 gallons (tho its recomended that cherry barbs not be in anything less than 30 gallons, and swords in no less than 20 just due to size) not even counting the two swordtails (which generally I'd caution against keeping with the other fish in question, especially since they generally have different pH preferences) and the water must be heated for the asian fish... The cherry barbs are rather timid fish and the honey gourami is also somewhat skittish and should be kept with fish its size or smaller... not things that are compatable with the double the size boisterous swordtails.

While not the best rule as it doesn't take everything into account, when in doubt follow the 1 inch of fish to 1 gallon rule using the adult size of the fish (which unless kept in completely inappropriate conditions will NOT grow to the size of the tank - so don't even think about tossing out that urban myth as an excuse). With the swordtail (4 in) and dwarf honey gourami (2 in) I hope you've got them swimming in 6 gallons of water there... water under a false bottom or that they don't have swimming access to does not count in this case! Adding another swordtail (4in) and a group of cherry barbs (min 6 fish at 2in each...) is another 16 gallons needed in your "pond".


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## Reptilian (Oct 22, 2006)

I think you mistaken:


> I am actually rather shocked at the frogs living with the FBTs...


 I'm not keeping darts with my FBT. My FBT viv is 50/50. One side is water the other is land. I am going to take out the sword tail and get something more peaceful. I will be getting another honey (different morph) and maybe a longfin serpae or 2. That would have 2 be 8-9 gallons right? well right now the water portion is 6 gallons witch I can easily increase. :roll: :lol:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Do the FBTs have access to the water the fish live in? When you described the tank I thought you were talking half water half land where the toads could hop into and swim in the same water the fish are in. Are the sections completely separate so they don't share water?


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## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

I have a 55 gallon tank that was stocked with an appropiate number of fish. I have done my research in that regards, and I know a lot about fish. You might be wondering about the four neons in that tank, but I used to have 9 in there, but the other five got stolen. Along with our angelfish (they were small so they didn't bother the neons) and our plecostamus.


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## Max Power (Jul 22, 2006)

A 55 gal aquarium and a pond feature in a viv are very different.

How did some of your tetras get stolen :lol:, must be a funny story!


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## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

We set up the tank at school, and some dude stole half of our fish. So now we are trying to get the funds necessary (we had about $40 worth of fish stolen) to replace the stolen ones, but I'm reluctant to use my own money if they are just going to be stolen again. So no. Not a funny story.


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## Reptilian (Oct 22, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> Do the FBTs have access to the water the fish live in? When you described the tank I thought you were talking half water half land where the toads could hop into and swim in the same water the fish are in. Are the sections completely separate so they don't share water?


The FBT do have acces to the water. yes it is half water half land but I have no frogs with them.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

south american cichlids, pick your poison anyone will work


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## Reptilian (Oct 22, 2006)

the S.A cichlids would destroy the darts.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

"South American Cichlids" is a very, very broad group. Remember, Oscars are South American Cichlids... and if they don't flat out eat the frogs/tadpoles, they will kill them trying.

There are smaller, less predatory cichlids... keyhole cichlids and many dwarfs come to mind... but they need tanks minimum 30 gallons to keep the water quality needed for these animals to do well. 

Remember to research your fish... many sites have "minimum tank sizes" to give you a basic clue on their needs. Schooling fish should automatically be out just due to the pure number needed to form a healthy school. You also need hardier fish that can handle the changes in water quality and temperature in these conditions... this is why fish like bettas (preferably more peaceful species than splendens) and guppies/endlers are the best choices... they can handle the conditions, don't need schools, and would actually appreciate the FFs dropping in on the water.

Remember the pond is a fish tank, still needs to follow all the fish keeping rules. Do your research.


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