# Mixing arboreal and terrestrial dart frogs in a 120 cm (47 in) high terrarium.



## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

Hello! First of all, I am seeking advice and different opinions, I am not a complete beginner (keeping darts since 2016), but I am curious of other experiences that group members might have concerning this topic.

I have a pretty big terrarium, that is 70 cm long, 60 cm wide and 120 cm high (27x23x47 in) and I am planning on making a biotope type enclosure, with 2 different frog species from the Dendrobatidae family. I keep Ranitomeya and planning on buying Oophaga in the future so these 2 species might be good for the Arboreal frog species, and for the terrestrial I am thinking a Dendrobates species, that is found near or in the same zones as the two above. I know for a fact that the Ranitomeya are not only Arboreal, since I see them often on the leaf litter, but after some research I found articles that wrote about some Ranitomeya couples not leaving a bromeliad for all of their life, staying pretty much on the same branch.

I am asking if anybody have managed to keep successfully two species from the same geographical region together over a longer period of time? 

Here are some pictures of the terrarium, it is in the early stages still, no frogs would be rehomed in here for at least 3 months, until I can see that the plants have grown in and there is plenty of hiding spaces. In the last picture you can see a 186cm high male **** sapiens for scale.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hello, 

There is no benefit TO THE FROGS from having two species in the same tank. They WILL come into contact with each other, while your tank may APPEAR to be "large", it is not remotely large in comparison to the specs that a dart frog would use in the wild. I have seen my _Ranitomeya sirensis_ use every inch of their 90x45x60cm tank.

Despite reports of Ranitomeya never leaving a bromeliad IN THE WILD they behaviour had never been reported in captivity that I have seen. 

Every single Ranitomeya I've kept, and every report I've ever read, has identified that they use the ground section of the tank as much as the higher sections. In fact, my _Ranitomeya_ spend almost all the daytime in/on the leaf litter foraging for food. 

Mixing species is not a recommended practice in this board.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

If you use the search feature here, use the keyword "mixing", you'll get a lot of information regarding many aspects of the question far beyond whether the species inhabit slightly different layers of the hardscape.


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## Schledog (Apr 28, 2020)

Off of the topic of mixing (which I don’t advise either) but you certainly have a beautiful looking tank! I love the plant selection


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Schledog said:


> Off of the topic of mixing (which I don’t advise either) but you certainly have a beautiful looking tank! I love the plant selection


Agreed! Beautiful tank and great plants. And leaf litter!

If I were stocking this tank I would stock it with a group of _Ranitomeya sirensis_ , they will use all the height and the length of that tank.


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## Captain Awesome (Jan 13, 2018)

When you are out it the woods, would you consider something at eye level arboreal? Our vivariums will never be large enough to separate out these living conditions.


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Hello,
> 
> There is no benefit TO THE FROGS from having two species in the same tank. They WILL come into contact with each other, while your tank may APPEAR to be "large", it is not remotely large in comparison to the specs that a dart frog would use in the wild. I have seen my _Ranitomeya sirensis_ use every inch of their 90x45x60cm tank.
> 
> ...


Hello!

I know that for the frogs this might be a stress factor, and I am trying to minimize that as much as I can. 

In captivity many of the normal behaviors are altered, this might be one of them, but in the end, you are right, it doesn't matter in our case.

Mine to, all of the Ranitomeya species are very active and love searching around the tank and using every inch of space. Interesting how yours do that, mine search in the leaflitter in the morning and evening, after I spray their tank down or after feeding.

Thank you for the response, I will take this into consideration.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Frankly, your viv is on the small side for an "arboreal" experience and trying to segregate species like that. 120cm is basically the height of a wider fallen-over tree in the wild, which darts have no problem climbing up and hopping over. In the wild "terrestrial" darts have been documented to climb to up to 30 meters.

Also most "arboreal" darts are not truly arboreal and will be happy to spend time on the ground.

For example, I keep tincs (usually terrestrial frogs) in a viv that is over 4 feet high and they frequently climb very far up, spending about half to a third of their time somewhere "up there".

So no, the frogs won't stay apart naturally, even in a viv of your size.

You also don't want a situation where "the floor is lava" for your arboreal darts.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

What happens in our human perspective is a kind of scale miniaturization that isnt relative to the perception or behaviors of the frogs ( and other animals)

To help people use a more realistic yet available to our experience way of looking at animal living spaces, I invite you to stand at one end beside enclosure in question and take as many steps needed cross its expanse.

Then looking at your watch, start from bottom to top with the other hand and see how many seconds it takes to again, cross the expanse vertically at an easy pace of speed.

The seconds and distance of the available space will give you a tangible spatial experience thats a little closer to whats real than our own diorama like mental representation of Terrestrial, Arboreal, Large, Small.

Very beautiful vivarium you have made there, by the way!


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> If you use the search feature here, use the keyword "mixing", you'll get a lot of information regarding many aspects of the question far beyond whether the species inhabit slightly different layers of the hardscape.


Thank you, already did and found great stuff there!


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

Schledog said:


> Off of the topic of mixing (which I don’t advise either) but you certainly have a beautiful looking tank! I love the plant selection


Thank you very much, this is the plant list so far: 

Asplenium sp. MiniBegonia amphioxusBegonia foliosa var. minataBegonia thelmaeBegonia venosaCissus adenopodaCissus amazonicaCissus discolorCleisostoma scolopendrifoliumCryptanthus redCyperus papyrusDendrobium Jenkinsii x LindleyiDischidia ovataDrimia unifloraEpidendrum porpaxEpiscia jim's canadian sunsetEpiscia sp.Ficus pumilaKohleria silver featherLemurella culciferaLudisia discolorMaranta Leuconeura var. kerchoveana 'Variegata'Marcgravia umbellataNeoregelia punctatissimNeoregelia Red WaifNeoregelia sp. 'Fireball'Nephrolepis sp. MiniPellonia daveauanaPeperomia angulataPeperomia prostrataPhilodendron augustialatumPhilodendron lapoanumPhilodendron malesevichiaePhilodendron ornatumPhilodendron tenuePilea microphyllaPilea spruceanaPiper nigrumPorphyrocoma pohlianaRestrepia trichoglossaRuellia humilisVriesea lubbersiiZamioculcas Zamiifolia ‘Raven’


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

eMCRay said:


> Frankly, your viv is on the small side for an "arboreal" experience and trying to segregate species like that. 120cm is basically the height of a wider fallen-over tree in the wild, which darts have no problem climbing up and hopping over. In the wild "terrestrial" darts have been documented to climb to up to 30 meters.
> 
> Also most "arboreal" darts are not truly arboreal and will be happy to spend time on the ground.
> 
> ...


Now that more and more people write about this, I am starting to realize this, thank you for pointing this out and sharing your own experiences.


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

Kmc said:


> What happens in our human perspective is a kind of scale miniaturization that isnt relative to the perception or behaviors of the frogs ( and other animals)
> 
> To help people use a more realistic yet available to our experience way of looking at animal living spaces, I invite you to stand at one end beside enclosure in question and take as many steps needed cross its expanse.
> 
> ...


Yup, the space is to small for two different species. Now I am thinking on buying rather then 2 more common species, 1 rare and interesting species or local, maybe even dive into the Oophaga craze!


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I can't remember if it was posted in the "In situ/in the wild videos and photos thread!" but there's a video of a (probably male?) D. tinctorius scaling a 30 or 40 metre vertical tree trunk. I remember when my Azureus would climb 2 or 3 feet back in the day and it put it in perspective. 

The dead horse I'm always beating is that even my 'terrestrial' P. terribilis climb one metre high on at least a 60 degree incline regularly, and would clearly go higher given the opportunity. 

That's not arboreal, it's just Tuesday.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Has anyone said your enclosure is too small to even consider this? Just six times? One more won't hurt because it's way too small to consider this. Outside of it being a bad idea for so many other reasons. As others have pointed out, "terrestrial" dart frogs climb just as high as "arboreal" darts so you're not keeping them separating. I can't think of any examples in the wild where two different species of dart frogs occupy the same exact area. Anyone have an example of this?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JasonE said:


> I can't think of any examples in the wild where two different species of dart frogs occupy the same exact area. Anyone have an example of this?


R. imitator and its target species comes to mind immediately.

Again, and I realize no one is denying this, the 'occupying different areas' thing is not only one of the least relevant concerns, but looking at wild behavior patterns to try to figure out what to do in a box that's far less than 1% of the size of wild home ranges is not going to reliably lead to good conclusions.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> R. imitator and its target species comes to mind immediately.
> 
> Again, and I realize no one is denying this, the 'occupying different areas' thing is not only one of the least relevant concerns, but looking at wild behavior patterns to try to figure out what to do in a box that's far less than 1% of the size of wild home ranges is not going to lead to good conclusions.


True. I should have been more specific and asked if there are any ranitomeya species that co-exist in the same niche as a "terrestrial" species?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I've heard anecdotal accounts of O. pumilio 'Blue Jeans' and D. auratus occupying the same territory, but once again that's an open forest or plantation vs. a glass box.

New or new-ish hobbyists hear about sympatric species or someone on the Internet having multi-species success and they respond with "So you're saying *there's a chance*!"

Sure, there's a _non-zero_ probability you're gonna marry a rich supermodel and win the lottery, but I wouldn't count on it, Slugger. 😆 

(That's not directed at you specifically, @Zibi -- I've just been doing this too long)


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

JasonE said:


> I can't think of any examples in the wild where two different species of dart frogs occupy the same exact area. Anyone have an example of this?


In Costa Rica I saw auratus and pulmilio with in 5 or 10 feet of each other.


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

Fahad said:


> I can't remember if it was posted in the "In situ/in the wild videos and photos thread!" but there's a video of a (probably male?) D. tinctorius scaling a 30 or 40 metre vertical tree trunk. I remember when my Azureus would climb 2 or 3 feet back in the day and it put it in perspective.
> 
> The dead horse I'm always beating is that even my 'terrestrial' P. terribilis climb one metre high on at least a 60 degree incline regularly, and would clearly go higher given the opportunity.
> 
> That's not arboreal, it's just Tuesday.


Yes, I saw that one and thought to be an interesting recording. Thank you for the answer.


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

JasonE said:


> Has anyone said your enclosure is too small to even consider this? Just six times? One more won't hurt because it's way too small to consider this. Outside of it being a bad idea for so many other reasons. As others have pointed out, "terrestrial" dart frogs climb just as high as "arboreal" darts so you're not keeping them separating. I can't think of any examples in the wild where two different species of dart frogs occupy the same exact area. Anyone have an example of this?


Yes, thank you counting all the times people already advised against it, with you it makes 7. 

There are a few papers and photographs that show different dart frogs that live next to each other, as someone wrote D. auratus and Oophaga pumilo can have a very close range which also means that they have a big chance of crossing paths, so it exists in the wild that two dart frogs from different species meet.

Thank you for the answer.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Crossing paths and living in a novel restriction of space is different and I am sure you get it. JS

I would like my Supermodel to like making fruit fly jars. If there's a chance!


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

Fahad said:


> I've heard anecdotal accounts of O. pumilio 'Blue Jeans' and D. auratus occupying the same territory, but once again that's an open forest or plantation vs. a glass box.
> 
> New or new-ish hobbyists hear about sympatric species or someone on the Internet having multi-species success and they respond with "So you're saying *there's a chance*!"
> 
> ...


There are more then anecdotal accounts of this, since there have been documented multiple times and by different people, so the chances are pretty high if they occupy the same range. 

I was not saying, that I want to do this, I was curios of other experiences with this, but in the end, I got told multiple times why I should not do it. I never did any species mixing, since I only had smaller enclosures, now I was curious of other opinions on this, which I got.

Yup, no problem, sarcasm is well received, hope that some day I might still win the lottery!


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Zibi said:


> Yes, thank you counting all the times people already advised against it, with you it makes 7.
> 
> There are a few papers and photographs that show different dart frogs that live next to each other, as someone wrote D. auratus and Oophaga pumilo can have a very close range which also means that they have a big chance of crossing paths, so it exists in the wild that two dart frogs from different species meet.
> 
> Thank you for the answer.


As cool as a tank of Costa Rican auratus and O. pumilio 'blue jeans' would be, it's unrealistic in captivity. Maybe if the tank was 10'x4'x8' you could consider this. Possibly.


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Crossing paths and living in a novel restriction of space is different and I am sure you get it. JS
> 
> I would like my Supermodel to like making fruit fly jars. If there's a chance!


Yes, I get it, it seams that everybody is on the same opinion, and nobody brings any new perspective to the table. But, in the end, that is why we love the dart frog community, keeping it simple and traditional!


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

JasonE said:


> As cool as a tank of Costa Rican auratus and O. pumilio 'blue jeans' would be, it's unrealistic in captivity. Maybe if the tank was 10'x4'x8' you could consider this. Possibly.


It would be cool, and it has been done by multiple people, and even renowned zoological institutes for educational purposes. 

I don't know if my initial message came through, but I wasn't asking for advice on why not and why mix dart frogs, I was rather looking for people who had done it in the past and have experiences with this, either bad or good. Even though nobody is looking at them with good eyes, and it is not recommended, people still do it since it is not a written law. I was courios hearing from those people.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Zibi said:


> It would be cool, and it has been done by multiple people, and even renowned zoological institutes for educational purposes.
> 
> I don't know if my initial message came through, but I wasn't asking for advice on why not and why mix dart frogs, I was rather looking for people who had done it in the past and have experiences with this, either bad or good. Even though nobody is looking at them with good eyes, and it is not recommended, people still do it since it is not a written law. I was courios hearing from those people.


You're not going to find those people here my friend. Mixing species is frowned upon greatly here and many of these threads get closed because the arguments get out of hand or just go around in circles. Good luck though.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> R. imitator and its target species comes to mind immediately.
> 
> Again, and I realize no one is denying this, the 'occupying different areas' thing is not only one of the least relevant concerns, but looking at wild behavior patterns to try to figure out what to do in a box that's far less than 1% of the size of wild home ranges is not going to reliably lead to good conclusions.


Exactly what @fishingguy12345 said.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Zibi said:


> It would be cool, and it has been done by multiple people, and even renowned zoological institutes for educational purposes.
> 
> I don't know if my initial message came through, but I wasn't asking for advice on why not and why mix dart frogs, I was rather looking for people who had done it in the past and have experiences with this, either bad or good. Even though nobody is looking at them with good eyes, and it is not recommended, people still do it since it is not a written law. I was courios hearing from those people.


There simply hasnt been a lot of long time records of this practice since the result always turns out the same.

Btw, most hobbyist can't even keep on species frogs alive for 5+ years.. Yet they can easely reach up to 20+ years old.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Zibi said:


> Yes, I get it, it seams that everybody is on the same opinion, and nobody brings any new perspective to the table. But, in the end, that is why we love the dart frog community, keeping it simple and traditional!


Simple, yes -- traditional, no. I kept frogs 20 years ago and many things have changed since then, this is not a hobby bound by tradition.

I would suggest that the experiences of the past 20 years are also why many people hold the views that they do.



Zibi said:


> It would be cool, and it has been done by multiple people, and even renowned zoological institutes for educational purposes.


I've addressed that point several times in other threads on this topic -- a typical hobbyist is not comparable to an institution in terms of motivation, facilities or human resources, so generally a poor comparison.

I'm also not saying it *can't be done *... the frogs don't spontaneously combust when placed in the same enclosure. Only that the vast majority of the time it's a bad idea as it can open the door to negative outcomes over a span of time.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Traditional no, people have presented the urge to mix species in one vivarium since they have been able to get different species. Meaning, from The Beginning. 

Simple, no. The deeper you go the more dimensional focusing on the details of a single subject in its vivaria becomes.


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

I am sorry and I want to apologize for everybody that got involved in this topic. I wasn't trying to anger people or change anybody's view on this topic, I share the same principle as you, to not mix dart frog species, I only asked this question so that I could hear different opinions about this matter, since not many people talk about it openly. I hope that nobody is leaving with a bad attitude or sour taste in the mouth, and we can all agree, that mixing species is not okay and should be left out of this hobby.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

You might find using this larger enclosure for keeping a larger group of the same species of Ranitomeya more interesting than mixing. 

There are a number of species that do extremely well in groups, and with a larger tank, you get to see how social and interesting they can really be. A lot of people overlook this, but it is so much more interesting than a mixed species tank if you ask me.

Some species to consider that work extremely well in groups of 3+:

R. sirensis (can be shy)
R. flavovittata
R. vanzolinii (can be shy)

You could try a larger group of imitators as well, but they can be more finicky and if you are newer to keeping Ranitomeya, a pair is usually where I would begin.

Your tank is great though!


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## Zibi (Nov 9, 2020)

Chris S said:


> You might find using this larger enclosure for keeping a larger group of the same species of Ranitomeya more interesting than mixing.
> 
> There are a number of species that do extremely well in groups, and with a larger tank, you get to see how social and interesting they can really be. A lot of people overlook this, but it is so much more interesting than a mixed species tank if you ask me.
> 
> ...


I already have 2 Ranitomeya species in groups of 5 individuals, and they are doing great. I am considering this option, or go all out and acquire a Oophaga species.ú

Thank you for the suggestion.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

No need to apologize at all.

There needs to be a Zeal font. It would help in so many situations!


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Zibi said:


> I am sorry and I want to apologize for everybody that got involved in this topic. I wasn't trying to anger people or change anybody's view on this topic, I share the same principle as you, to not mix dart frog species, I only asked this question so that I could hear different opinions about this matter, since not many people talk about it openly. I hope that nobody is leaving with a bad attitude or sour taste in the mouth, and we can all agree, that mixing species is not okay and should be left out of this hobby.


There's no reason to apologize. We all understand the curiosity. I've thought about it myself and most people have too.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Zibi said:


> I already have 2 Ranitomeya species in groups of 5 individuals, and they are doing great. I am considering this option, or go all out and acquire a Oophaga species.ú
> 
> Thank you for the suggestion.


Pumilio, for example, don't always fair well with more than a pair. I don't have much experience with the larger obligates though.


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