# Help pls!!! Sick auratus'



## ZeeMan (Sep 19, 2008)

Hello everyone,

I am in need of assistance.
Came home from work today...and i found 4 out of 5 auratus spasming.
The episodes last for a few minutes then they hope around like normal then they spasm again. They open and close their mouths.

Please see help.
I pulled out the 4 sick ones...the last one seems fine for now.

PLEASE PLEASE HELP!!!

Thanks
Zee


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

What supplements are you using and how old are they? I have read of frogs seizing if their food is dusted with Dendrocare.

Also, what are your temps like? sometimes if it gets to warm for too long they get Heat Related Muscle Spasm (HRMS).


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## gretchenellie (Aug 7, 2007)

what was the tank temp?

what is the setup like?

the more info you can give, the better.


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## ZeeMan (Sep 19, 2008)

I actually reduced the lighting above my frog's tank since spring is coming.
During the winter I had two aquarium lights directly above their tank. The temp is around the low 70s...They are away from windows and heating units. So I don't think it is temperature...

I dust the flies, just Monday with a mixture of Rep-Cal Calcium w/ VitD3 and Rep-Cal Multivitamins. Calcium expires 4/2010 and the vitamins expires 12/2010. They are stored in a cool dark place.

The only thing I added to their tank is a section of banana to keep the flies alive and produce maggots (for fat and protein) for the frogs.

They are in my 20 gallon long grow out tank...the leucs and the remaining auratus are fine. I have had these in their current tank since last November. The leaf litter was collected after a big snow storm and then washed. 

I know I am not suppose to be mixing, but these babies are not even a year old and there are no breeding sites. I was in the process of making their permanent homes, but my family ended up having to sell our own home, so everything is on hold financially. I am not intending to mix them in the future. 

As for aggression, I watch them about once a hour when I am home. The frogs don't seem to care for each other and will feed side by side. The leucs sit up in the back on top of the tree fern panels to sleep and the auratus have a favorite corner they like. Funny thing is they all then to squeeze into one area and leave the rest of the tank completely unused.

So far, that is all I can think of to tell you guys...ask me anything i might have forgotten


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Hmmm...have you gotten fecals on these guys?
I would try contacting Dr.Frye (Frye Brothers' Frogs) or Dr. Wright (Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital)


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

More and more people are reporting this.....seizure like response and gaping ect.

i've never seen it or heard of it.

hopefully someone with expericence with it will weigh in....

Sounds like a sudden response to something....not a parasite or disease.

What's all this stuff about Dendrocare??

Could it have been an airborne toxin or some substance?


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

otis07 said:


> What supplements are you using and how old are they? I have read of frogs seizing if their food is dusted with Dendrocare.
> 
> Also, what are your temps like? sometimes if it gets to warm for too long they get Heat Related Muscle Spasm (HRMS).


Although I agree with this statement that Dendrocare has been found to cause seizes in some dart frogs, in my personal experience, dealing with Leucs, Auratus and Azareus in particular I haven't ever had a problem. Other frogs, such as Pums I have heard of causes, but I haven't had any issues. At the moment, I rotate between supplements so I do not see any problems at all in regards to supplementation. There are too many factors to consider in regards to this issue, as temps, humidity, heat issues as well as many others needs to be considered as they are all having the same issues and fast.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

how long have your supplements been open, the expiration date doesn't matter much once they are open. judging from the fact that the frogs don't look thin at all i would say it look much like a calcium deficiency seizure. I'm by no means a vet but have seen this many times from frogs that were not getting proper supplementation. something that may help buy some calcium gluconate and put a drop on their back once daily till the problem stops. i would recommend alternation supplements with each feeding rather than mixing them. hope this helps. as for dendrocare as said by alt Ive only experienced problems in pums nothing else.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Merek and Phil...

I don't use it so I cannot post any personal experiences but a few board members have had problems with it. I know there were more but here's two

sounddrive...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/36073-fainting-frogs.html 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/6631-tinc-siezure.html#post55023


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Good links Emily...thanks.

hmmm..Calcium definciency.

I dust every single feeding. Always have. Alternate between Calc and vit but every feeding is always heavily dusted.

Ed does always say to caution against hyper saturating but with the flies grooming ect....I have always dusted every feeding.

Hardly any SLS and a 80% + grow out rate as well.......


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have used dendrocare exclusively for over 3 years with no instances of seizures, gaping, etc.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

frogparty said:


> I have used dendrocare exclusively for over 3 years with no instances of seizures, gaping, etc.


I'm not saying that is what caused it, I'm just saying was a _possiblity_, but since Zee doesn't use that supplement I guess thats not possible.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

otis07 said:


> Merek and Phil...
> 
> I don't use it so I cannot post any personal experiences but a few board members have had problems with it. I know there were more but here's two
> 
> ...



Oh yeah I understand that there were cases of it, but I was just saying out of the time I have been using it I haven't had any problems with any species I have. After talking to a buddy of mine who has been into the hobby for 10+ years about this he said that it could very well be a Vitamin issue, even if there is a manufacturing error somewhere along the way, whether or not it is happening or not, too much of a product or ingredient can hurt or kill their frogs. In no way am I denying the results of others or what they have experienced but sometimes other factors due come into play. But in this case the frogs are experiencing the same issues so I would have to concur that vitamin supplementation "could be" the issue as people do not realize that the expiration date on the canister is for the unopened container vs the product being open and using the same date (I unfortunately fell victim to this only once but I was able to correct this issue. As I only usually use Vitamin Supplements for 6months anyway.). But without more info it is hard to tell.

PS: Emily thanks for the threads.


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## ZeeMan (Sep 19, 2008)

Thank you guys.

Where can I purchase calcium gluconate? at a local drug store, hopefully?

I will get new supplements. They have been open since last September if I remember correctly. But I rather get new supplements to be safe. I'll also alternate supplements as you guys had suggested.

They seem fine now, actually a bit pissed in their temporary tub.

I'll post a pic of my fattest female when she ventures out again...She has double chins!

Oh before I put the section of banana in, I did wash/scrub it with water before I even cut it...(must admit a bit awkward =/)

I thought it might have been an introduced toxin as well. But nothing went into the tank other than flies and the banana, and the remaining animals are just fine. The top is sealed to keep humidity in as it is pretty dry in the basement, but I open the top every day for new air. I am gonna siphon out the water in the false bottom. Could anaerobic or aerobic bacteria living in the false bottom be the cause? There is no mold on the wood anymore, mushroom sprout every once in a while.

Thanks again for your input. As always much appreciated and a learning experience!


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## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

The symptoms do sound like a calcium deficiency...except it is very weird for it to express itself in four frogs at the same time. That leads me to believe it is something environmental. Excessive heat will cause some frogs to seizure like you describe, although you said that temps are in the 70s... Anyone else have control over your thermostat? 

Be sure and dust every feeding or every other feeding while rotating the supplements (one day calcium, the next multi-vitamin).


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

you can pick calcium gluconate at a local agricultural store.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I would be careful about administering that yourself.

If it was me and my frogs....I'd give Dr Frye a phone call first.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> I would be careful about administering that yourself.
> 
> If it was me and my frogs....I'd give Dr Frye a phone call first.


 
there are really no ill effects from using it, dr Frye will tell you the same thing one drop daily on the back.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sounddrive said:


> there are really no ill effects from using it, dr Frye will tell you the same thing one drop daily on the back.


Well it should be diluted down to 2.3% and if the frog is insufficient in D3 it won't be of much use. 


Ed


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

Ed said:


> Well it should be diluted down to 2.3% and if the frog is insufficient in D3 it won't be of much use.
> 
> 
> Ed


 absolutely i forgot to mention that, the bottle i picked up is already a 2% solution but i think you can get it as high as 20%. thanks for adding that in there ed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you get it from a animal supply store it is often 23%. 

I have seen groups of animals undergo seizures when there were problems with the supplements. 

While there are anecdotal reports of issues with Dendrocare, I suspect that this is because of how the supplements were treated in transit as opposed to any real problems with the actual supplement. Remember this is a complete supplement containing A, D3 and E and if exposed to say improper temperature (heat) then it could speed up the break down of the fat soluble vitamins. 

Also keep in mind that there are other possible reasons for seizures that are nutritionally related see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/7679-seizure-yet-again-2.html

Ed


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

does this calcium liquid have a shelf life , I had a bottle open down in cellar , also does any one use these drops one a week as a stable? or only when trouble arisses? Im have some breeding girls and wondered if the extra calcium would help the success rates of eggs!


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

catman25 said:


> does this calcium liquid have a shelf life , I had a bottle open down in cellar , also does any one use these drops one a week as a stable? or only when trouble arisses? Im have some breeding girls and wondered if the extra calcium would help the success rates of eggs!


I would assume most things have an expiration or shelf life, like most products do. Calcium liquid is no different in my opinion, unless it is processed differently to last forever, but I am unaware of anything like this.


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

So what is the normal shelf life of powdered calcium after it's been opened?


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

> So what is the normal shelf life of powdered calcium after it's been opened?


not sure.. i think in large part it depends on temp, time, etc... i keep mine in the fridge, [except for the 1:1 i have mixed for acute use] and try to replace them both every 6 - 8 months.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

boogsawaste said:


> So what is the normal shelf life of powdered calcium after it's been opened?


Ed would probably have an idea, but I change out mine every 4-6months after opening like all my supplements now.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

batrachiophyle said:


> not sure.. i think in large part it depends on temp, time, etc... i keep mine in the fridge, [except for the 1:1 i have mixed for acute use] and try to replace them both every 6 - 8 months.


I would definitely agree with this as Ed and I discussed this issue awhile back, although the time frame was a bit shorter if I remember correctly.


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## ravengritz (Mar 2, 2009)

ZeeMan said:


> The only thing I added to their tank is a section of banana to keep the flies alive and produce maggots (for fat and protein) for the frogs.


Did the banana still have the peel intact when you put it in the viv? Bananas frequently receive more pesticides than your average fruit because the peel isn't ingested.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

boogsawaste said:


> So what is the normal shelf life of powdered calcium after it's been opened?


If it only contains calcium carbonate or calcium citrate, then it really doesn't expire as there isn't anything in it that is going to change much at room conditions (although you could have decomposition of citrate if it is wet and bacterial growth occurs but then it wouldn't be a usable powder... 

If it contains D3, then current wisdom is to replace it about every six months.. 

There has been some discussion by some manufacturers, to start trying microencapsulation but I haven't seen any hard data on its effectiveness or how it affects coverage of the feeder insect. 

Ed


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

wtf ??? um sure hope no young kids clicked that ! that def has nothing to do with a sick auratus


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks Merek and Ed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

catman25 said:


> does this calcium liquid have a shelf life , I had a bottle open down in cellar , also does any one use these drops one a week as a stable? or only when trouble arisses? Im have some breeding girls and wondered if the extra calcium would help the success rates of eggs!



I think this is in reference to calcium gluconate/glubionate then yes it does go bad as the sugar in the solution readily supports bacterial fungal growth. It should be refrigerated and discarded if it become cloudy. 

It probably won't help with the eggs as the issues with the eggs as developmental issues by the embryos in the eggs often may be more related to insufficient vitamins. 

Ed


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

just for referance someone gave me bad reputation for my prior post . But what they didnt see was someone with 1 post posted a link to a naughty site and I was commented that no kids should click that link , But some how someone thought I was being rude to ed. Hope this fixes any issues : /


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Co2 poisoning... I had a retic that got that and it looked almost exactly like that, legs splayed behind it. I took it out, punched holes in the bottom of its container (near the sides along the soil line) after a couple hours it was fine. This happened after I stuck some rice in to feed the springs in its container, too much molding and voila, sick frog. Now it's active and calling.

So all that to say, there may be other things at play here other than just supplements.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

catman25 said:


> just for referance someone gave me bad reputation for my prior post . But what they didnt see was someone with 1 post posted a link to a naughty site and I was commented that no kids should click that link , But some how someone thought I was being rude to ed. Hope this fixes any issues : /


I didn't think you were being rude to me... 

Ed


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## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

some one gave me bad reputation and said I shouldnt belittle you , I just wanted to make sure i didnt step on your toes! did you see the troll post ?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't want to get this more OT but if I had seen it I would have sent the mods or Kyle a pm. 
I didn't think your post was aimed at me as it didn't seem to make any sense in that respect. 
You absolutely didn't step on my toes. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Don't mean to be an alarmist here, but seizing is also symptomatic of chytrid infection---have they been tested as a precaution?
Also, do you use fertilizer in the tank often? It may also be a reaction to a chemical used in the tank to which the frogs may have been over-exposed..


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I had this same exact problem during feeding with my azureus, actually lost two of them because of it. As soon as I changed supplementation they perked right up, haven't seen it since.


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