# Geckos and other cohabitants for darts?



## sports_doc

<Dart frog cohabitants talk>

Ok, so, I admit it. I mix. 

I am sure you have to. So what works? what hasn't?

Sure most isopods and springtails, snails too honestly. I don't believe the egg eating hype, although some will eat your precious plants.

I haven't tried any other species with tree frogs for fear they would just eat them....but most darts seem perfectly fine with micro geckos like gonatodes and sphaerodactylus and tiny geckos like Lepidodactylus.

Side benefit. No more spiders in those tanks.


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## Polypodium

Hey Sports Doc,

Thanks for this post. It is nice to see an experienced, respected and senior member of the the frog community start a thread stating that they keep (certain)species of animals together with success and enjoyment. 

This topic always seems to be taboo around hear and the purists seem to have the loudest voices. I for one like experimentation. 

There are probably many other species that can successfully co-habitate besides the micro geckos within the vivarium. I for one support this as long as it is thought out and tried by those with real experience. 

I might actually consider a micro gecko in the future.

Thanks,

Gary


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## timmygreener

I have a few anoles that hitch hiked in plants from local nursery in my giant tank. One there too fast to catch and remove plus they seem very happy being fed dusted meals daily and the amount of room so I don't disturb them


Not flashy like micro geckos but non the less they have been mixed for about 6 months with no issues.


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## gdebell

When you say no more spiders do you mean spider mites? or actual spiders? Also those geckos look great.


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## oldlady25715

Those geckos are tempting. One other experienced frogger told me that they like a little less humidity than most darts, and hide in the leaf litter pretty much all the time. Interested in hearing feedback on their care with dart frogs from various sources.


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## PDFanatic

I don't know if my bank account can handle another addiction!


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## Scott

I'd add here that this is not something for a Beginner to try.

You really have to know how your frogs behave before you do something like this.

s


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## a hill

I'm keeping phelsuma klemmerii in one tank with darts. No issues. Lost one recently unfortunately though. 

In the next few months I'm likely going to try out a green tree Python. I'm not sure if it'll bother the frogs though. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## DragonSpirit1185

I really wish this topic would have had a better outcome lol It just seems to have died prematurely. I am really interested in this topic.


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## craigrbns

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I really wish this topic would have had a better outcome lol It just seems to have died prematurely. I am really interested in this topic.


Same here. I am new to the forum and admittedly a novice who is researching my first vivarium and frog species. I do not plan on experimenting to begin, but I am interested in multiple species of frogs and animals. Keeping and enjoying multiple species vs. breeding interests me more. I was excited to see this post and hoping some of the more experienced would chime in too. No doubt my children (and myself) would love to see a gecko or two add interest to a pdf vivarium!


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## jturner

I am interested in this topic as well. I think a lot of people would rather have one nice display viv in their house where they can have a few different species then set up multiple different tanks. With that said I was wondering if anyone has tried mixing terribilis with any tree frogs like maybe red eyes. Before you jump on me just here my reasoning. Large terribilis and smaller species of tree frog both can eat crickets. They obviously won't interbreed. Terribilis are mainly ground dwelling and tree frogs hang up high so they probably wouldn't occupy the same niche. Also darts are diurnal and most tree frogs are nocturnal so they probably wouldn't really interact. At least in the case of red eyes the two species are from similar environments in the wild so their care requirements are similar. Anyway I was just wondering if anyone had tried this or if anyone had any reasons why this wouldn't work besides just saying "why take the risk?".


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## Scott

To repeat - learn your frogs first. Learn all about them. Just observing them - for longer periods of time - so you can understand what the different behaviors mean.

You need to do this for quite awhile - and REALLY try to understand your frog behavior - before attempting anything like this.

s


Scott said:


> I'd add here that this is not something for a Beginner to try.
> 
> You really have to know how your frogs behave before you do something like this.
> 
> s


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## jturner

I totally understand that and would definitely do my research and keep any two species separate to get to know them before mixing. I have mixed species of frogs and lizards before with long term success (not darts) and was just wondering about this particular combination. I don't even plan on doing this and it was mostly out of curiosity.


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## Bcs TX

Terribs do climb, so do my Brazilian Yellow Heads. Like Scott said know your frogs and research.


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## DragonSpirit1185

craigrbns said:


> Same here. I am new to the forum and admittedly a novice who is researching my first vivarium and frog species. I do not plan on experimenting to begin, but I am interested in multiple species of frogs and animals. Keeping and enjoying multiple species vs. breeding interests me more. I was excited to see this post and hoping some of the more experienced would chime in too. No doubt my children (and myself) would love to see a gecko or two add interest to a pdf vivarium!


This topic is geckos and darts. Not mixing frog species.

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## jturner

"Geckos and *other cohabitants* for darts?"


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## oldlady25715

if the frogs hide in leaf litter often they would probably compete with the geckos for the same niche.


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## Ed

oldlady25715 said:


> if the frogs hide in leaf litter often they would probably compete with the geckos for the same niche.


Why is that probable? That would require them to need the same temperatures, humidity and moisture content in the niche. I don't think that has been proven to the extent that they would compete for the same niches. 

Additionally there would have to be insufficient niches in the leaf litter so that one is physically displacing the other from a preferred site as the frogs and geckos aren't going to recognize one another as competitors (behavioral cues are wrong). As for other resources such as food, keep in mind that this is under control of the keeper unlike the wild and they aren't going to compete for egg deposition sites or for sites for rearing of tadpoles .... nor are the frogs going to compete for the sites that the geckos would want to lay eggs. 

Now does this automatically mean that it should be done? No. As noted above people really need to have at least a modest grasp of the needs of the animals. Some of the suggestions in this list I'm going to label as problematic but Shawn's comments aren't out of the realm of success. 

It seems like its time to point people to this thread again. Once again I summon the thread back from the dead. I have some additional thoughts that some day should make their way into this thread but time is lacking. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits-2.html 


Some comments 

Ed


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## RobertN

I have kept Gonatodes and sphaerodactylus for a few years now. It started out by necessity... had horrible problem with spiders and centipedes. 
I started out with a pair of S. Torrei in my bluejean tank (I always keep mine in group). I saw both babies Torrei running and babies bluejeans hopping around.
May be the geckos might dine on a froglet here and there but I had plenty of froglets.
As Scott said, understand your animals and your setup. All of my tank, 1/3 of the tank is covered with screen. After some months with success, all my frog tanks have dwarf geckos. I think in order to be successful for both species, you need to setup a dry place (a big piece of bark) and some place for the gecko to deposit the eggs. Geckos will hide eggs somewhere and eggs do hatch in the tank but it is best to remove the eggs out for incubation. It is almost impossible to remove the young geckos out of the tank. Young geckos will grow ok in the tank if you don't remove them... but at some point, the adult male will not tolerate any males in the tank. In my opinion, most Gonatodes and sphaerodactylus will coexist wit your frogs but use your judgement. There are a few gonatodes, Cecilaie, Ocellatus and Conninatus, I would not keep them with pumilios but with tinct or terriblis, they should be ok. I kept ocelattus and cecilae with my azureus. Hope this help!


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## Phyllobates

RobertN said:


> I have kept Gonatodes and sphaerodactylus for a few years now. It started out by necessity... had horrible problem with spiders and centipedes.


Were the geckos 'free range'? Hate those hairy, creepy centipedes...


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## RobertN

geckos kept with frogs to control spiders and centipedes inside the tanks. there were escaped but not by design lol


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## RobertN

I have quite a few gecko pictures in https://www.facebook.com/LivingColorsCA. Enjoy!


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## C los7

Amazing pictures!


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## TheCoop

Please buy captive bred gecko's if you try this out. In my experience W.C Lygodactylus carry large parasite loads as well as blood mites.


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## sldfrg5

This debate seems all over every dart frog forum I follow recently. If you have a large enough tank, and are experienced with both species I do not understand the issue. Obviously, both the darts and geckos need similar environmental requirements, but otherwise it seems a little more "natural" to have this type of set up.


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## Ed

sldfrg5 said:


> This debate seems all over every dart frog forum I follow recently. If you have a large enough tank, and are experienced with both species I do not understand the issue. Obviously, both the darts and geckos need similar environmental requirements, but otherwise it seems a little more "natural" to have this type of set up.


Large enough is not a good metric while the size can be important, the more crucial factor is setting up the enclosure properly. You can have a 30 foot by 30 foot area and if all of the needed resources are in one small tiny area the majority of the space isn't going to be of any use or value. See the thread I linked to above. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185

oldlady25715 said:


> if the frogs hide in leaf litter often they would probably compete with the geckos for the same niche.


Aren't geckos arboreal  I don't see them competing for leaf litter space. The ground isn't their niche.


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## cschub13

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Aren't geckos arboreal  I don't see them competing for leaf litter space. The ground isn't their niche.


All geckos are arboreal? News to me.


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## DragonSpirit1185

cschub13 said:


> All geckos are arboreal? News to me.


I wasn't saying all. Though every tropical gecko I've seen are usually arboreal.

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## Source

All geckos are not arboreal; Leopard Geckos are one obvious example however there are more.

As far as Sphraedactylous geckos go, I have some of these guys (elegans) and as much as they love to climb they spend much of their time in the leaf litter hunting and claiming territories. 

Some types of Sphraedactylous geckos spend all of their time in the leaf litter (ie. reef geckos).

These geckos are amazing to watch and there is always at least one out and about so they are a great choice for vivs. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Aren't geckos arboreal  I don't see them competing for leaf litter space. The ground isn't their niche.


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## DragonSpirit1185

Source said:


> All geckos are not arboreal; Leopard Geckos are one obvious example however there are more.
> 
> As far as Sphraedactylous geckos go, I have some of these guys (elegans) and as much as they love to climb they spend much of their time in the leaf litter hunting and claiming territories.
> 
> Some types of Sphraedactylous geckos spend all of their time in the leaf litter (ie. reef geckos).
> 
> These geckos are amazing to watch and there is always at least one out and about so they are a great choice for vivs.


I don't see anyone putting leopard geckos in with darts lol.
I was sticking with the subject matter.

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## Source

Its all good its just best not to comment on things that you have no experience with.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I don't see anyone putting leopard geckos in with darts lol.
> I was sticking with the subject matter.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


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## cschub13

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I don't see anyone putting leopard geckos in with darts lol.
> I was sticking with the subject matter.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


You made a very generalized claim about geckos, which includes some 1400+ species. He was just trying to enlighten you. He also offered far more pertinent information regarding "the subject matter".


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## DragonSpirit1185

cschub13 said:


> You made a very generalized claim about geckos, which includes some 1400+ species. He was just trying to enlighten you. He also offered far more pertinent information regarding "the subject matter".


Subject matter meaning the subject matter of this thread. Can we just stop with the nitpicking lol. I didn't make a claim it was a question. A question pertaining to the thread's subject matter of cohabitants for dart frogs. Which there isn't 1400+ species they can go with darts. Geckos that can go with darts are nearly all arboreal are they not?

There now that's better clarified 

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## cschub13

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Subject matter meaning the subject matter of this thread. Can we just stop with the nitpicking lol. I didn't make a claim it was a question. A question pertaining to the thread's subject matter of cohabitants for dart frogs. Which there isn't 1400+ species they can go with darts. Geckos that can go with darts are nearly all arboreal are they not?
> 
> There now that's better clarified
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


And you're accusing me of nitpicking...Take a few deep breathes.


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## HanSolo

If you want to keep Geckos and Dartfrogs together I think it's wise to chose mainly arboreal geckos like Lygodactylus williamsi, Phelsuma Klemmeri or similar dwarf geckos that will keep the interference with the frogs to a minimum.
To mix you need to know the behaviour of your frogs and your geckos.

I had Uroplatus sikorae together with Mantellas for 5 years, no issues at all. 
At daytime the Mantellas where active, when the light turned off the Uroplatus woke up.


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## Ed

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Geckos that can go with darts are nearly all arboreal are they not?


NO............. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

HanSolo said:


> If you want to keep Geckos and Dartfrogs together I think it's wise to chose mainly arboreal geckos like Lygodactylus williamsi, Phelsuma Klemmeri or similar dwarf geckos that will keep the interference with the frogs to a minimum.
> To mix you need to know the behaviour of your frogs and your geckos.


Yes you need to know the behavior of the animals involved but you also shouldn't just suggest non-sympatric species. This is because your enabling the potential exposure to novel pathogens. 

We just had a major action on the herp hobby due to a novel pathogen getting into the environment. Now whether this was due to releases of native species that were infected or originated via waste material/water is speculation but one of the risks we as hobby can prevent is novel exposures. 
Exposure to novel pathogens is what enables them to jump species and that is something we can prevent. 



HanSolo said:


> I had Uroplatus sikorae together with Mantellas for 5 years, no issues at all.
> At daytime the Mantellas where active, when the light turned off the Uroplatus woke up.


Which is sympatric and significantly reduces the risk. 

The geckos in question are very unlikely to cause issues with the frogs. 

Again I'm going to suggest to people to read the thread I linked above on multispecies. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I don't see anyone putting leopard geckos in with darts lol.
> I was sticking with the subject matter


Actually the comment about leopard geckos is not sticking to the subject as it would require the person to not know anything about either species or their needs which is not what is being discussed. 

some comments 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185

Ed said:


> Actually the comment about leopard geckos is not sticking to the subject as it would require the person to not know anything about either species or their needs which is not what is being discussed.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I wasn't even the one who mentioned the leopard gecko to begin with 

I agree with your sympatric statements. Species from the same region are usually evolved to adapt to the same pathogens and if they are from a different region then they could expose the other inhabitant to pathogens they haven't be adapted to handle. 
So it's best to get cohabitants from the same region. 
I've been preaching this to folks on Facebook. 

I'm still learning about the geckos so it's good to know not all are arboreal. Though every gecko I have had personal experience with are arboreal. Not the kind you wanna mix with darts though lol. Though that's not the topic here.
The ones I have seen most people use with darts are arboreal or semi-arborial such as mourning geckos (arboreal) and Sphaerodactylus which are semi-aboreal. Though apparently according to Source that's not the case with all of them. 
Which I'm just going with based off online information. Though with there being so many different Sphaerodactylus I see that some need more looking into to find out which ones would benefit different tanks.


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## HanSolo

Ed said:


> Yes you need to know the behavior of the animals involved but you also shouldn't just suggest non-sympatric species. This is because your enabling the potential exposure to novel pathogens.


You are absolutely right.. Sorry!


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## TheCoop

I honestly thought about building a Vive to include my Uroplatus Phantasticus, would be in the larger range @ 36"T x 20"D x 36"W.. We shall see


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## Dendrobait

I am willing to bet that some folks have kept uroplatus with mantellas. Not sure how predatory uroplatus are.


The thing with these microgeckos is that they can get out of holes dartfrogs cannot. Be sure to check your tanks carefully. zoomeds and exos off the shelf are not gecko proof that is for sure.


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