# EpiWeb concerns...



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi all,

I was recently talking with a local frogger about ordering some EpiWeb for the new rack I'm working on. He mentioned that he contacted the manufacturer directly to place a large order and they told him some very interesting information. Apparently, there is currently no authorized North American distributor for EpiWeb, though there is a company claiming they are. 

In fact, this company has been selling and a distributing a material that is similar to EpiWeb, but NOT the real product. This is the material that I have purchased through a Canadin dealer and that I have seen posted here in a number of tanks. Again, this is NOT REAL EPIWEB. Apparently, the company in question was at one time an authorized distributor, but stopped ordering the actual product and began selling a 'knock-off'.

Here is my reply from the EpiWeb manufacturer:


> Hello Mike,
> ***** was our distributor for North America. We have been informed that the material he sells is not the original EpiWeb that he used to import from us. I have understood that the material he sells is black, course and not the same structure as true EpiWeb. Even a very small difference in structure makes a big difference in growing results.
> We have had problems finding another reliable and serious distributor for Epiweb. We are still looking.
> At the moment there is no place to order EpiWeb in Canada. I can ship it to you and give you a good price to compensate the more costly freight until we have a distributor or dealer.
> ...


In light of this info, I will be contacting the company I purchased my 'EpiWeb' from and asking for a partial or complete refund. 

Just thought that others would be interested in this. If you'd like the name of the company that is falsely distributing EpiWeb, please drop me a PM.


----------



## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

What is EpiWeb?


----------



## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Well, since we are here to wait on you.
Let me google that for you


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

jelly_shrimp said:


> What is EpiWeb?


How many times do people have to encourage you to use your own brain? Google is there for everyone to use - even you! 

Thanks for trying to set him straight, Mark.

I'm pretty choked that there is someone out there selling fraudulent EpiWeb. Especially when it's this material that has been blamed for frog deaths and injuries...


----------



## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

markbudde said:


> Well, since we are here to wait on you.
> Let me google that for you


lol thanks. So, you use it to culture springtailes, and to grow plants in? By growing plants I mean putting a chunk in the ground and growing the plants in the chunk.


----------



## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeah, it would be interesting to see if the material which caused the injuries is actually epiweb.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/35789-frogs-leg-stuck-epiweb.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/29399-sad-news-epiweb-warning.html


----------



## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

afterdark said:


> Dude - could you refrain from cluttering my thread with your mindless questions? How many times do people have to encourage you to use your own brain? Google is there for everyone to use - even you!
> 
> Thanks for trying to set him straight, Mark.
> 
> I'm pretty choked that there is someone out there selling fraudulent EpiWeb. Especially when it's this material that has been blamed for frog deaths and injuries...


I ask because a lot of companies use sales pitches on how their product is just the greatest in the world, so I wanted a description from somebody who has used it, and can tell me what it 'really' is. Do you know what I mean?


----------



## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks for posting this information.
Dave


----------



## sNApple (Mar 19, 2007)

w00t +1 for canadart detectives

id like to see how the "real" epiweb holds water.. because the stuff i got is rock hard, and doesn't really hold any water...


----------



## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

jelly_shrimp said:


> lol thanks. So, you use it to culture springtailes, and to grow plants in? By growing plants I mean putting a chunk in the ground and growing the plants in the chunk.


How in the hell was this post off-topic? I was asking how other people use it! If I'm not mistakin, EpiWeb is the topic, I'm asking about the topic, hence this IS ON TOPIC!!! Goodness there are a ton of stupid people on this forum! By the way, this post was off-topic, for those who don't understand. Your welcome for clearing it up!


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Google is a wonderful tool but then again a simple and polite answer to a legitimate question does the trick as well 

Bill


----------



## sNApple (Mar 19, 2007)

Mike i really don't think we can blame the smaller shops for selling it to us, as "epiweb" . They most likely were in the dark just as we are. We just have to find the US distributor, and then we can cause a sh"t storm.


----------



## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

sNApple said:


> Mike i really don't think we can blame the smaller shops for selling it to us, as "epiweb" . They most likely were in the dark just as we are. We just have to find the US distributor, and then we can cause a sh"t storm.


Yummy, but honestly, how much apart are the two? Is it really much of a difference in performance?


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

jelly_shrimp said:


> Yummy, but honestly, how much apart are the two? Is it really much of a difference in performance?


Not sure I understand the 'Yummy', but hey....

Here's the response I got from the manufacturer with the answer to your question in bold:


> Hello Mike,
> ***** was our distributor for North America. We have been informed that the material he sells is not the original EpiWeb that he used to import from us. I have understood that the material he sells is black, course and not the same structure as true EpiWeb. *Even a very small difference in structure makes a big difference in growing results.*
> We have had problems finding another reliable and serious distributor for Epiweb. We are still looking.
> At the moment there is no place to order EpiWeb in Canada. I can ship it to you and give you a good price to compensate the more costly freight until we have a distributor or dealer.
> ...


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

I have some experience here....so I will pipe in.

1. I have purchased EpiWeb directly from Mikael at Dusk Tropic (the manufacturer) and it is indeed brown not black.
2. Epiweb does not hold water...that is the point...so orchids don't become too saturated and rot.
3. Dartfrog Depot did not receive the last order they placed with Dusk Tropic and thus will not be able to offer panels again until this situation is resolved. We do have a good number of the pots and tree branches made from EpiWeb however. 

Mike:

If you can get in touch with Mikael please have him contact me. I placed an $800 order for EpiWeb substrate last November and have received neither product or contact. In the past Mikael has said he has had problems with my email coming through. I would obviously like to follow up and get the product or a refund so your help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## sNApple (Mar 19, 2007)

UmbraSprite said:


> Mike:
> 
> If you can get in touch with Mikael please have him contact me. I placed an $800 order for EpiWeb substrate last November and have received neither product or contact. In the past Mikael has said he has had problems with my email coming through. I would obviously like to follow up and get the product or a refund so your help would be greatly appreciated.


He was very easy to get a hold of.. 
whats your email ill let him know.

If you have a hotmail account, create a yahoo email account. I always had problems with hotmail, but never once with yahoo.


----------



## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

afterdark said:


> "Even a very small difference in structure makes a big difference in growing results."


While there may be some truth to this relative to different types of materials, it's mostly BS and otherwise just marketing. I tried both the Epiweb and epiweb "knock offs" and all the ones that are made out of the same material as Epiweb with similar porosities performed the same. Arguably, Epiweb is the knock off, since the material has been around for a while, Epiweb is just another name it has recently been marketed as. But I wouldn't use any of them in my tanks.. they are just too abrasive to the touch for my liking.


----------



## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I have cleaned up several off topic posts, and handed out multiple infractions. Further nonsense will not be tolerated.


----------



## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

afterdark said:


> Not sure I understand the 'Yummy', but hey....
> 
> Here's the response I got from the manufacturer with the answer to your question in bold:


The 'yummy' was about the crap storm thing, it's an inside joke, my friend Travis gets it (right next to me, we're playing games right now) anyway, now you know, it doesn't matter I just wanted to clear that up


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies, folks.

I have received a reply from the original US distributor of EpiWeb. Apparently, communication with Dusk Tropic is the major issue. Way back in the day, the US supplier had trouble getting a shipment or response from Dusk Tropic and so he placed an order with a US company. Only the sheets are the EpiWeb 'knockoff'. The pots/branches/substrate that are available are apparently the real deal.

I still feel it's a bit of a misrepresentation to sell the sheets as EpiWeb when they are not. If anyone would like to read his full resonse, please PM or email me.


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Looks like I am not the only one having problems....

Snapple: I PM'd you...thanks.


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

So this has turned into a big hearsay mess. Here's how I understand things:
Dusk Tropic, the Swedish EpiWeb vendor, initially approved the US sale of a similar product that was sourced by the US distributor. It turns out that this material is similar, but not identical to the EpiWeb for sale through Dusk Tropic. It sounds to me like Dusk Tropic originally approved the sale of the comparable material as EpiWeb and have since changed their minds. Now they are saying the other material is less dense than 'true' Epi and is not as effective at rooting plants. They could just be trying to protect sales...

I'm going to try to get a sample of Epi and compare it to what I've got. If there are major differences, I will let everyone know.


----------



## JustinF (Apr 13, 2009)

I think the whole "fake" portion of this concern has been blown out of proportion. Here is what I got, and have permission to post from Ray of First Ray's Orchids....

I was the original North American distributor for EpiWeb. Mikael found a manufacturer in the US that made a product he deemed to be equivalent to what he had in Europe, sold it to me as EpiWeb, and had it shipped to me from the US manufacturer. When his responsiveness went “to hell in a hand basket”, I went to that same manufacturer and bought the stuff directly. Seems to me that I could safely call that EpiWeb!

I suspect that the “split” was Mikael from me, since I went directly to the company he ordered from, so he is now claiming it to be other than the real thing.

Also, Mikael is buying an existing product and reselling it as EpiWeb, as am I. The manufacturer doesn’t call it that, and there is no legal issue involved.

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - Welcome to First Rays Orchids

I'm my opinion then, if one can consider the current product as fake, anything coming from Mikael himself in North America and not shipped from Sweden is in fact fake. How one can conclude Mikael the owner of EpiWeb is selling fake EpiWeb is beyond me. If there is a different and inferior product, that would mean Mikael does not have quality control, and that is the fault of none but himself.

Sounds more like Mikael is trying to protect his sales now that Ray bypassed the middle man and went straight to the manufacturer himself.

As far as I can tell, the only way that this is not possible is if there is a licensed manufacturer in Europe that Mikael has making his form of EpiWeb, and that he chose to disregard that and resell a different product as his own in the US. I cannot find any evidence of this what so ever.

All I can find is clear evidence that Mikael is reselling an existing product and marketing as something of his own. This can account for the various forms of existing material on the market, as more then one manufacturer will have their own preferred materials and construction technique to protect their sales.

In addition many people are using various porous plastic products with similar texture to EpiWeb and having satisfactory results.

What this tells me is, if you want a certain form of "EpiWeb" say soft and brown, find the existing manufacturer of the product and buy it directly. It's probably in a pond section near you, and the only way you can be certain to get what you want.


----------



## Ray (May 12, 2009)

Justin,

Thank you for posting that.

I am - indeed - the "*****" from the first post in this long thread.

The stuff I have distributed to-date is exactly identical (in both origin and materially) as the stuff I got from Mikael Karlbom. It has worked very well for me as an orchid grower, and as an interior backdrop to an aquarium.

I do agree with one of the comments I read here about the stuff being awfully abrasive, but that is what it was designed for originally, after all.

As an update, I have been in contact with the manufacturer to see if they can supply something softer, again in the brown-to-black color reminiscent of tree fern, and should see samples shortly. I may add it to my product line if it looks like it may have any advantages - but i'd guess it had better be sold under a different name!!!!

One comment in this thread spoke of the stuff not holding any water. It's made from plastic, including recycled PET beverage bottles, so will absorb minimally. The only way it _holds_ water is by trapped droplets in the web.

See? Isn't it better to work with facts?


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks for posting, Ray. I apologize for any assumptions I made about you and your business.

I'm a little confused as to why Mikael is indicating that he does not think this material you are selling is the same as EpiWeb. I have some email correspondence with Mikael that I'd like to forward to you to get your opinion. Could you drop me a line at mikeesmith (at) hotmail (dot) com?

Thanks very much for clearing this up Ray!


----------



## JustinF (Apr 13, 2009)

FYI,

Please take a look at the Gallery @ EpiWeb's homepage. Epiweb

Please note many pics you see here that include panels are indeed black. If you know much about how modern digital cameras meter light, you can assume the black is actually darker in life then it is in these pictures.

In addition, I do not believe the material being soft or coarse would cause the issues with frogs becoming entangled in them. The porous nature of the media by it's design allows for the possibility of entanglement. If one feels the entanglement issue is a big concern, solid backgrounds such as Cork Bark or GS can be considered.

Thanks for your post Ray.


----------



## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

When I first heard about this product, I contacted the makers in Europe. I was told they would send me examples. Never got them. Never heard a word as to why and so, I could not try them.

I did receive various orchids mounted to what was called EPIWEB. I was not really impressed. I found a look alike here in the US for a fraction of the price so that's what I used for my epi wall. Seems to be identical to me.

So, I'll stick to what's here in the US and cheaper.


----------



## Ray (May 12, 2009)

If someone trusted here would like verification of materials, I will be happy to cut a piece out of a pot that I bought from Mikael, and a piece of the "raw material" I have been purchasing directly from the manufacturer.

That said, I know that Mikael has, on occasion, sent different materials to me - mostly black, sometimes brown - but his explanation was that the color was the only difference. Maybe he changed his mind, and is now claiming the brown stuff is "true" EpiWeb.


----------



## GTFX (Jul 21, 2013)

Ray said:


> Justin,
> 
> Thank you for posting that.
> 
> ...




Name your new softer product "Ray Light" ^_-


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Holy crap!!

*This thread is ancient!*


----------



## chasesoda (Nov 23, 2011)

Yep, this is years old.


----------

