# Eyelash Viper and Terribilis tank



## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

I was browsing youtube videos on some darts and found from the New Jersey Zoo and saw that they had mixed eyelash vipers with Yellow Terribilis. I immediately thought, "Won't the snakes try and eat the frogs?" I was shocked that they would mix these two different animals in one enclosure and have success. Any input. I have read that they do eat frogs, lizards and other animals in the wild and don't see why this would be different in captivity. Here is the link to the video on youtube.


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## Topete (Sep 27, 2009)

it's a jersey thing!!!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

1 It isn't designed for "success" It is designed to allow for a vibrant, interesting and possibly dynamic display for the most important reason that the zoo can have - the paying customers.

2. That enclosure, and many like it, are very well funded (mostly) and highly maintained by full time staff with biology degrees.


Those are 2 main reasons that froma a hobby point of view, especially someone with limted (under 10 years or so) experience...that it's almost an assured fail.


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

I thought so. I have always been pro Zoos as I see them as doing more good than bad, but this I cannot support. I realize they are trying to attract attention, but the whole point of a zoo is to educate and preserve species. The tank they are in is absolutely awesome, but I still don't think that it's worth losing frogs over. Thanks for the reply.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

The person who shot that film moved around way too much and way too erratically imo


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Was this an animal vid or porno?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Bow chicka bow bow.....


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## Topete (Sep 27, 2009)

unfortunately the well being of the animals is not considered at all times in zoos, aquariums or similar locations...

i first hand know of experimentation with temperature handling with very endangered frogs such as Atelopus... resulted in 24 dead and 1 acclimated survivor

they may have many degrees in herpetology, biology... but it is still reckless..


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Topete said:


> i first hand know of experimentation with temperature handling with very endangered frogs such as Atelopus... resulted in 24 dead and 1 acclimated survivor


They cull _A. zeteki_ by the thousands for genetic management purposes, may as well learn something from them dying.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Tony said:


> They cull _A. zeteki_ by the thousands for genetic management purposes, may as well learn something from them dying.


Tony I thought they were doing that because they were getting overwhelmed by the amount of frogs and because a vast majority turned out to be male.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Topete said:


> unfortunately the well being of the animals is not considered at all times in zoos, aquariums or similar locations...
> 
> i first hand know of experimentation with temperature handling with very endangered frogs such as Atelopus... resulted in 24 dead and 1 acclimated survivor
> 
> they may have many degrees in herpetology, biology... but it is still reckless..


 
Yikes  !

Ed in 5,4,3,1.......

Mistakes can alway happen but I'm not sure about "reckless".

We also have Dan (Widmad) who used to be at the Baltimore Aquarium where they also had a Shlegeli and some frogs together and there was snake breeding too, which is pretty cool.

Hopefully he'll see this thread.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Ed in 5,4,3,1.......


You forgot 2...

In regards to the B. schlegelii and the P. terribilis, two reasons that it would probably work are A. large enclosure and B. habitat differences. The vipers are very arboreal while the frogs are very not arboreal. As such, interaction between the two species is probably very minimal.

As for the Atelopus, my understanding is that the cull them for both reasons: overwhelmed by numbers and to keep genetics diverse and keep related offspring from getting into breeding programs.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> As for the Atelopus, my understanding is that the cull them for both reasons: overwhelmed by numbers and to keep genetics diverse and keep related offspring from getting into breeding programs.


That is my understanding as well. From what I remember non-managed groups are used as practice breeding colonies before a zoo is given frogs from the managed population and the offspring of those groups are culled because they are typically from sibling groups or otherwise not suitable for management. I personally think it would do more good to release those culls to the public as a fundraising program but that is between Panama and the AZA.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Tony said:


> That is my understanding as well. From what I remember non-managed groups are used as practice breeding colonies before a zoo is given frogs from the managed population and the offspring of those groups are culled because they are typically from sibling groups or otherwise not suitable for management. I personally think it would do more good to release those culls to the public as a fundraising program but that is between Panama and the AZA.


Releasing them to the general public could cause a backlash. While the "official" report is that the species is extinct in the wild, I have it on good authority that they're still around in some remote populations. If the frogs are released into the general public, it would create a demand for the frogs, and could cause those remote populations to be wiped out.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Good call JP. This could easily become a repeat of lehmanni.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> Releasing them to the general public could cause a backlash. While the "official" report is that the species is extinct in the wild, I have it on good authority that they're still around in some remote populations. If the frogs are released into the general public, it would create a demand for the frogs, and could cause those remote populations to be wiped out.


Why would anyone bother smuggling frogs from remote populations that may or may not exist when they are so easy to breed and prolific?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

As Ed likes to point out, look at Auratus. You can make the same argument for those, but they're one of the most exported species of dart frogs. Even now. Hobbyists tend to like to get new blood, even if it's the same morph that they already have.


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## qiksilver5 (Jan 9, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> Releasing them to the general public could cause a backlash. While the "official" report is that the species is extinct in the wild, I have it on good authority that they're still around in some remote populations. If the frogs are released into the general public, it would create a demand for the frogs, and could cause those remote populations to be wiped out.


That's a really upsetting comment on the state of the pet trade. Too bad it's true. I would like to think though, that a description of 'extinct in the wild' would be enough to encourage an interest in those already in captivity.

After all isn't that the goal of many of us here?


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

OFF TOPIC: what kind of ground cover is that the terribilis are on? looks like creeping fig of sorts except growing across and not vertically. i LIKE it!


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I'm with you there, but the unfortunate reality is that there are individuals out there that seek to do the best for themselves rather than the frogs. I'm a firm believer that the private community can accomplish things that the zoological institutions cannot, but without as strict regulation as zoos have, people will invariably find loopholes and try to take advantage of the system.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MonarchzMan said:


> As Ed likes to point out, look at Auratus. You can make the same argument for those, but they're one of the most exported species of dart frogs.


A bigger reason behind the exportation of _auratus_ is that it's a very commonly collected frog that holds up better than most to the stress of shipping.

Exporters use the _auratus_ the same way as simliar reptile species like baby boas and a lot of lizards - as "padding" to bulk up a shipment and create more cash, i.e....you want some Suriname Tincs? Well....we can get you those 400 "pieces" but you have to take these lizards....an these snakes...an these Hylids...an...an....an..


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> As Ed likes to point out, look at Auratus.


As a counterexample, look at mysteriosus. Their legal status has fueled demand to the point that they are here in very large numbers. If they were legal I bet most people wouldn't give them a second look since they are a rather plain looking frog by PDF standards, but look what happens if you slap that "rare and illegal" tag on them.

_A. zeteki _ are far more prolific than any dart by all accounts I've read. Why not put those culls to good use instead of creating an artificial demand for smuggled frogs that really may endanger the remaining populations?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I don't know that I would say that Mysteriosus are here in very large numbers. I've never seen nor been offered one... That said, I do know that they are here. I don't know that I would equate them being here because they're illegal, but because they're rare. There has always been a demand for rare. Which is why there is considerable risk introducing Atelopus into the hobby because there will be HUGE demand for them, and initially, that could wipe out the wild populations.

I agree that zeteki are very prolific (although as I understand it, the tadpoles are particular about their food) and that there could be the potential for them to be put to use. I think that it'd be a great opportunity, but it's certainly not a black-and-white situation.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> but it's certainly not a black-and-white situation.


I agree with that completely. Ultimately it is a pointless debate considering the contempt the AZA shows for hobbyists.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> I agree with that completely. Ultimately it is a pointless debate considering the contempt the AZA shows for hobbyists.


I have yet to see a AZA ZooKeeper come on here and make any comments that show contempt any where close to the level you just demonstrated here.. 

I appreciate the insult you just handed me Tony and all of the information I've shared here.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> As a counterexample, look at mysteriosus. Their legal status has fueled demand to the point that they are here in very large numbers. If they were legal I bet most people wouldn't give them a second look since they are a rather plain looking frog by PDF standards, but look what happens if you slap that "rare and illegal" tag on them.
> 
> _A. zeteki _are far more prolific than any dart by all accounts I've read. Why not put those culls to good use instead of creating an artificial demand for smuggled frogs that really may endanger the remaining populations?


Because as I've mentioned repeatedly in the past, there are significant political issues with it that are outside of the control of the institutions working with them in the US. There is a major cultural issues to them that motivates Panama to prohibit thier release into the pet trade. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> As a counterexample, look at mysteriosus. Their legal status has fueled demand to the point that they are here in very large numbers. If they were legal I bet most people wouldn't give them a second look since they are a rather plain looking frog by PDF standards, but look what happens if you slap that "rare and illegal" tag on them.
> 
> _A. zeteki _are far more prolific than any dart by all accounts I've read. Why not put those culls to good use instead of creating an artificial demand for smuggled frogs that really may endanger the remaining populations?


This is a disguised argument of the idea that if the animals were captive bred it would reduce demand for wc animals. This as I've repeatedly referenced does not occur until such a time that it become cheaper to captive produce the animals than it does for the hunters to collect the animals. This means thaat the animals have to become mass produced and very cheap. This is very unlikely to occur with any dendrobatid due to a number of factors including but not limited to the idea that we continually need new blood as our populations are too inbred.

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> A bigger reason behind the exportation of _auratus_ is that it's a very commonly collected frog that holds up better than most to the stress of shipping.
> 
> Exporters use the _auratus_ the same way as simliar reptile species like baby boas and a lot of lizards - as "padding" to bulk up a shipment and create more cash, i.e....you want some Suriname Tincs? Well....we can get you those 400 "pieces" but you have to take these lizards....an these snakes...an these Hylids...an...an....an..


Actually D. auratus wasn't used as a filler until fairly recently in history of imports and is/was pretty much restricted to one country.. Panama. It began as part of the heavy trade in pumilio but I suspect that unlike in the beginning of Panama opening up for pumilio export, they are no longer being used as a filler as thier price has remained fairly stable while the price of a lot of the pumilio have come way down from those early days.

Personally, I think that it was pretty much was the period from about 2003 to about 2008. This is a small portion of time for a frog that has been imported since at least the early 1980s. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> I have yet to see a AZA ZooKeeper come on here and make any comments that show contempt any where close to the level you just demonstrated here..
> 
> I appreciate the insult you just handed me Tony and all of the information I've shared here....
> 
> Ed


I said nothing about you, and I think I have made it very clear that I respect you and appreciate your advice. However, can you really sit here and say that the AZA, not you personally but the organization as a whole, treats hobbyists with anything but contempt? Zoos refuse to share info with us, refuse to accept info or animals from us, and most seem to favor abolishing the right of private citizens to keep any exotic animals. The hobby may not be perfect and there are certainly no shortage of antagonistic jackasses on our side, but can you really say with a straight face that all zookeepers are saints? 

Let's look at it from another perspective. I am a veteran, and I am proud of my service, but I don't take it as a personal insult every time somebody disagrees with the policies or actions of the military or its members, nor do I refuse to accept that some of that criticism may be both valid and constructive. Why can't you have a similar perspective on your employer?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Yikes  !
> 
> Ed in 5,4,3,1.......
> 
> ...


I see no need to address ignorance from dogma in this case... 

I bred both eyelash and auratus while they were housed together for many years. I used to have a picture of a auratus sitting on the head of a yellow eyelash and feeding on the crickets that crawled up there. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> This is a disguised argument of the idea that if the animals were captive bred it would reduce demand for wc animals. This as I've repeatedly referenced does not occur until such a time that it become cheaper to captive produce the animals than it does for the hunters to collect the animals. This means thaat the animals have to become mass produced and very cheap. This is very unlikely to occur with any dendrobatid due to a number of factors including but not limited to the idea that we continually need new blood as our populations are too inbred.
> 
> Ed


_A. zeteki_ is not a Dendrobatid, it does seem to be prolific enough to supply the hobby, and captive bred animals would certainly be less expensive than wild caught smuggled frogs from remote populations that may or may not exist.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I think that the first step would be to get a breeding program going for some legal Atelopus and if it can be demonstrated that they can be bred to the point of making it not cost effective to export, then it could be argued that Zeteki would be good candidates.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> I think that the first step would be to get a breeding program going for some legal Atelopus and if it can be demonstrated that they can be bred to the point of making it not cost effective to export, then it could be argued that Zeteki would be good candidates.


Are there any legally exportable _Atelopus_?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> I said nothing about you, and I think I have made it very clear that I respect you and appreciate your advice. However, can you really sit here and say that the AZA, not you personally but the organization as a whole, treats hobbyists with anything but contempt? Zoos refuse to share info with us, refuse to accept info or animals from us, and most seem to favor abolishing the right of private citizens to keep any exotic animals. The hobby may not be perfect and there are certainly no shortage of antagonistic jackasses on our side, but can you really say with a straight face that all zookeepers are saints?
> 
> Let's look at it from another perspective. I am a veteran, and I am proud of my service, but I don't take it as a personal insult every time somebody disagrees with the policies or actions of the military or its members, nor do I refuse to accept that some of that criticism may be both valid and constructive. Why can't you have a similar perspective on your employer?


 
Really, they don't share information? Considering they publish all kinds of information? A fair bit of important stuff for free is included in that informational source. Like all of the analysis on food sources published here Nutrition Advisory Group or all of the information that ends up in journals like ZooBiology or International Zoo Yearbook, or the information that ends up even in Reptiles Magazine... 

And when I come on here and share information that I aquired through my AZA position, and you claim that they don't share information, I can get insulted as you are insulting me as I was (according to my employment agreement) acting as a representative of the Zoo and the AZA. So to blanket claim the entire AZA doesn't share info is a problem. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> _A. zeteki_ is not a Dendrobatid, it does seem to be prolific enough to supply the hobby, and captive bred animals would certainly be less expensive than wild caught smuggled frogs from remote populations that may or may not exist.



See my prior comments, and on what are you basing your cost estimate? The reason is that there are several other species that look similar enough to zeteki that they could be smuggled and laundered as "cb" zeteki.. 

I suggest reading through the pdf on the allee effect. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> I think that the first step would be to get a breeding program going for some legal Atelopus and if it can be demonstrated that they can be bred to the point of making it not cost effective to export, then it could be argued that Zeteki would be good candidates.


There have been repeated attempts to captive breed other species of Atelopus by private individuals to the point where ABG actually hosted a conference to discuss the differences in success between A. zeteki, A. varius and other species. People attended from across the world and there were virtually no successful captive reproductions (both in private and institution collections) in any species other than zeteki and varius. The reports of problems were all the same, failure of females to survive, prolapsing of egg masses, deaths from retained eggs, females developing lesions from carrying males too long, and the few sucessful captive reproductions had huge failures in hatch rates and tadpole survivial (100% mortality from those that hatched). One of the few examples was published in an early issue of Leaf Litter. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> I think that the first step would be to get a breeding program going for some legal Atelopus and if it can be demonstrated that they can be bred to the point of making it not cost effective to export, then it could be argued that Zeteki would be good candidates.


If they ever get the paperwork to list Atelopus spumarius as the species instead of calling them dwarf toads (Bufo ssp) on the export/import documents, they would be shipped here again..


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Really, they don't share information? Considering they publish all kinds of information? A fair bit of important stuff for free is included in that informational source. Like all of the analysis on food sources published here Nutrition Advisory Group or all of the information that ends up in journals like ZooBiology or International Zoo Yearbook, or the information that ends up even in Reptiles Magazine...
> 
> And when I come on here and share information that I aquired through my AZA position, and you claim that they don't share information, I can get insulted as you are insulting me as I was (according to my employment agreement) acting as a representative of the Zoo and the AZA. So to blanket claim the entire AZA doesn't share info is a problem.
> 
> Ed



On the flip side, we have a zookeeper posting gems like this on the other forum when asked to share techniques for breeding _Leptopelis_ sp.:



> First of all, I have no reason or need to show you these records. *They are documented in zoological records and have no business being released to the public.* And I have no reason to prove "my" experience and qualifications because I am going to take all the credit for breeding rare and endangered amphibians. I am speaking for the nonpublic side of the amphibian world and just standing up for the blasphemous statement you made about the poor success of reproduction of amphibians other than darts.


Emphasis mine. 

Once again I appreciate everything you share here, but not all of your colleagues are so generous. From all appearances you are a welcome exception to the rule on how the AZA treats hobbyists.


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Ed/Tony: I would think that the sharing of information would be more zoo specific than AZA policy? When I did my 8 month temporary position with our local zoo this year, I had to sign a information disclosure stating that we cannot release any info from the zoo to the public (deaths, births, pregnancies, breeding success, etc...) until the public relations guy decided how he wanted to handle the situation. I can see where some places would discourage the release of information, such as deaths or unsuccessful breeding procedures, but I did not see/read/hear anything that specifically came from the AZA.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

twohoops21 said:


> Ed/Tony: I would think that the sharing of information would be more zoo specific than AZA policy? When I did my 8 month temporary position with our local zoo this year, I had to sign a information disclosure stating that we cannot release any info from the zoo to the public (deaths, births, pregnancies, breeding success, etc...) until the public relations guy decided how he wanted to handle the situation. I can see where some places would discourage the release of information, such as deaths or unsuccessful breeding procedures, but I did not see/read/hear anything that specifically came from the AZA.


Did you join AZA during your tenure? There is information that is more AZA specific that you are entitled to have as a member as well as how that information is passed out. The direct Zoo employer has the most control over that with your employment agreement (which you are referencing above).. but for example, while I was on the Steering Committee for the Cryprtobranchid Interest Group (AZA organization, and not run by a Zoo), I could share information leared there but was prohibited for example from sharing grant applications with the public (including those that had locality specific information).... 

In any case, all AZA Zoos participate in ISIS (ISIS :: Find Animals) and all holdings, births, deaths etc are there for pubilic access. 

Ed 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> On the flip side, we have a zookeeper posting gems like this on the other forum when asked to share techniques for breeding _Leptopelis_ sp.:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I didn't see that thread.. but I can tell you that if you had approached me with the attitude you showed in this thread wanting specific information, I would have told you to shove it and not shared any information with you either. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> I didn't see that thread.. but I can tell you that if you had approached me with the attitude you showed in this thread wanting specific information, I would have told you to shove it and not shared any information with you either.
> 
> Ed


I wasn't a participant in that thread, just an observer, nor did I cop an attitude toward you, it was you who came out swinging after I posted a mild criticism of your employer. If I worked myself up like you did here every time someone commented on the military I would have had a heart attack long ago. Time to take a deep breath, have a beer and chill out, I have gone out of my way to clarify that my statement was not directed toward you and that I appreciate all the help you have given to me and the hobby in general. Why do you insist on trying to escalate it into a personal battle?


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Ed said:


> Did you join AZA during your tenure? There is information that is more AZA specific that you are entitled to have as a member as well as how that information is passed out. The direct Zoo employer has the most control over that with your employment agreement (which you are referencing above).. but for example, while I was on the Steering Committee for the Cryprtobranchid Interest Group (AZA organization, and not run by a Zoo), I could share information leared there but was prohibited for example from sharing grant applications with the public (including those that had locality specific information)....
> 
> In any case, all AZA Zoos participate in ISIS (ISIS :: Find Animals) and all holdings, births, deaths etc are there for pubilic access.
> 
> ...


No Sir, I did not join AZA while I was there. Honestly I did not do much of anything there...my temporary 'term' was unfortunately BS. As a temp, myself and the other two temps were looked down upon as a burden as opposed to people coming to learn and gain experience in the field. I was stuck in a basement working with basic Petsmart animals: ferrets, rabbits, ball pythons, etc, and not getting the exotic experience that I was promised/needed. Not saying that I should have been working with komodos, lions, tigers, etc, but something that actually takes a little more skill than changing newspaper! But for a small zoo, I guess that could be as expected. 

As for the info sharing topic, I see what you are saying about the shared/not shared info. I did not realize that ISIS could be accessed by the public. We had access to it at work but I though that was only for zoos. 

As for the Viper/Dart enclosure, I am very surprised that AZA lets that fly. I was told that they are very picky/strict about what can and cannot be done with the animals. You would think that since eyelash vipers are know for eating frogs, they would put a stop to that.


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

Ed said:


> There have been repeated attempts to captive breed other species of Atelopus by private individuals to the point where ABG actually hosted a conference to discuss the differences in success between A. zeteki, A. varius and other species. People attended from across the world and there were virtually no successful captive reproductions (both in private and institution collections) in any species other than zeteki and varius. The reports of problems were all the same, failure of females to survive, prolapsing of egg masses, deaths from retained eggs, females developing lesions from carrying males too long, and the few sucessful captive reproductions had huge failures in hatch rates and tadpole survivial (100% mortality from those that hatched). One of the few examples was published in an early issue of Leaf Litter.
> 
> Ed


This is very true but there has been some limited success with certain Panamanian species such as A. limosus and A. glyphus, however this is very recent and still quite tentative.


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

twohoops21 said:


> As for the Viper/Dart enclosure, I am very surprised that AZA lets that fly. I was told that they are very picky/strict about what can and cannot be done with the animals. You would think that since eyelash vipers are know for eating frogs, they would put a stop to that.


eyelash/dendrobate enclosures are a quite common and accepted exhibit within many AZA institutions, I feel like if they were not successful the practice would have been stopped years ago.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ghettopieninja said:


> eyelash/dendrobate enclosures are a quite common and accepted exhibit within many AZA institutions, I feel like if they were not successful the practice would have been stopped years ago.


 
They have been in fairly consistent use for more than 2 decades. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ghettopieninja said:


> This is very true but there has been some limited success with certain Panamanian species such as A. limosus and A. glyphus, however this is very recent and still quite tentative.


 
Yes, they were bred in country after being carefully collected and handled until in captivity. This appears to be one of the crucial differences between success with species in private hands and those that were collected for institutions. 

Ed


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

The Oklahoma City zoo has the same thing. Looks pretty cool and all animals have thrived for years. 

Rock on!


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed,

I was actually the target of the specific unwarranted attack that Tony alluded to, by a so called Zoo Keeper at the Ft. Worth Zoo, who decided to jump into a conversation that frankly had nothing to do with the point he was trying to make. The point was that in the hobbyist community there are more species of darts bred as a percentage of the total species population then any other family of frogs. He decided to interpet this as an attack on the zoological community and shot of his mouth about how there are no species of frogs that have not been bred that are kept in zoos. When I specificly mentioned Leptopeltis Ulugurensis and Scatophryne Gottlebei as two species that I keep and have been searching unsuccessfully for records of breeding, he stated that they have been bred and raised successfully but that I have no right to ask for or see the said breeding records.

Keep in mind this is also a gentleman that stated in the same thread that Pumilio are harder to breed and require more room then Giant Monkey Tree frogs, Yellow Spotted Tree Toads and Goliath Frogs

I have the utmost respect for the zoological community and the accrued knowledge they bring to the table but arrogant individuals like this give you all a bad name.

Respectfully,
Roman


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Ed,
> 
> I was actually the target of the specific unwarranted attack that Tony alluded to, by a so called Zoo Keeper at the Ft. Worth Zoo, who decided to jump into a conversation that frankly had nothing to do with the point he was trying to make. The point was that in the hobbyist community there are more species of darts bred as a percentage of the total species population then any other family of frogs. He decided to interpet this as an attack on the zoological community and shot of his mouth about how there are no species of frogs that have not been bred that are kept in zoos. When I specificly mentioned Leptopeltis Ulugurensis and Scatophryne Gottlebei as two species that I keep and have been searching unsuccessfully for records of breeding, he stated that they have been bred and raised successfully but that I have no right to ask for or see the said breeding records.
> 
> ...


Hi Roman,

All of the reproductions in Scaphiophryne gottlebei that I am aware of occured in Europe. If you are interested in this species, TWI has been working on a breeding program for this species and has some of the info from Europe. As I noted above, all records of reproductions (depending on how often the collections manager at the Zoo updates the information (but it should be monthly) are available through ISIS. The information as to what is out there and being bred can be seen by the ISIS reports (successful reproductions are going to be reported as increases in inventory (decreases can be due to either a failure or to shipping animals out to other locations)). 
When they shift over to ZIMS updates should be much more frequently. 
Many Zoos have a policy that requires requests for this sort of information to pass through a committee which reviews the requests, there is usually a form to fill out and submit so if they have records, it can be aquired through the formal process if there is a balking on sharing it by a specific person. 

As to the attitude problem, I should have saved the various pms and e-mails I had from many ZooKeepers who read this forum but refuse to post due to the attitude I took issue to above. Most Zookeepers feel very unwelcome to post in these threads. 

Ed


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> Hi Roman,
> 
> All of the reproductions in Scaphiophryne gottlebei that I am aware of occured in Europe. If you are interested in this species, TWI has been working on a breeding program for this species and has some of the info from Europe. As I noted above, all records of reproductions (depending on how often the collections manager at the Zoo updates the information (but it should be monthly) are available through ISIS. The information as to what is out there and being bred can be seen by the ISIS reports (successful reproductions are going to be reported as increases in inventory (decreases can be due to either a failure or to shipping animals out to other locations)).
> When they shift over to ZIMS updates should be much more frequently.
> ...


I'm aware of those as well but not aware of any one actually being able to successfully keep the tads alive. Regarding everything else I really think it's a two way street and both parties are guilty. In this instance I was more offended by the whole attitude of I'm a zoo keeper and know better then you mere amateurs all the while spewing inaccurate and in some cases completely fradulent information.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Well, if anybody still wants to discuss the original topic... Is it possible that the eyelash viper, being from roughly the same area as some darts, instinctively knows not to eat brightly colored frogs? Do they even have color vision? I noticed that nobody had brought up their natural defense in a situation where it might actually be used in the wild.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RMB said:


> Well, if anybody still wants to discuss the original topic... Is it possible that the eyelash viper, being from roughly the same area as some darts, instinctively knows not to eat brightly colored frogs? Do they even have color vision? I noticed that nobody had brought up their natural defense in a situation where it might actually be used in the wild.


See http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1521/1255.full.pdf 

Ed


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks for bringing back the topic. I still don't think its a good idea to combine the two animals. I'm interested in whether they can see in color as well. If its instinctual for them not to eat pdfs then that's pretty cool. If anyone knows whether this is true, chime in. Try to please keep it relatively on topic.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> As to the attitude problem, I should have saved the various pms and e-mails I had from many ZooKeepers who read this forum but refuse to post due to the attitude I took issue to above. Most Zookeepers feel very unwelcome to post in these threads.
> 
> Ed


It's really a shame that we have to lose valuable input because of a few cantankerous posts. I have seen all too well how that drama and combative attitude drives the knowledgeable and kind folks away from forums and prevents learning and healthy discussion.

Kudos to you for hanging in here even though there are often callous remarks made. The frogs will certainly benefit from your comments in the long run. 

I hope at some point the climate can change so that they feel more comfortable and not have to fear a flame war from outsiders. I would certainly want the benefit of reading what other zookeepers have to say on this issue.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Redhead87xc said:


> Thanks for bringing back the topic. I still don't think its a good idea to combine the two animals. I'm interested in whether they can see in color as well. If its instinctual for them not to eat pdfs then that's pretty cool. If anyone knows whether this is true, chime in. Try to please keep it relatively on topic.


As far as that goes---I think the coloration would be less of an issue. There may be a smell to the frog that warns the snake about their being unappetizing---I can only speculate. I would not be surprised to learn that the terribilis' coloration is a warning flag in itself, though. 
Here's a quick read about the eyelash viper:
Bothriechis schlegelii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Ed said:


> See http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1521/1255.full.pdf
> 
> Ed


Hi, I'm a PC, and I don't like opening PDF documents.... or.... doing things a computer is supposed to do in general.

Any way you or somebody else could copy paste the relevant parts of that article? otherwise I'll have to look it up at work. Seems like at least a couple people might be interested in actually discussing how and why this combination works.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi,
I'm also a PC and I have no problems with pdf documents. 

It is an article that discusses color vision in several taxa including snakes. Color vision in reptiles is pretty interesting as it is different than that seen in mammalian vision systems. 
In short, many snakes do have color vision. 

Ed


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Alright, I read the article. Seems like one would need a bit more scientific background than I have to understand a lot of that, but I get the point, I think. Snakes have color vision that functions by filtering wavelengths of light and sensing the intensity of each individual color rather than having receptors for individual colors, correct? 

So now what I'd like to know is if an eyelash viper will attempt to eat a similar sized green frog, which still wouldn't prove that it wasn't the smell of a terrib that detered it, but it would show that it knows not to eat poison frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RMB said:


> Alright, I read the article. Seems like one would need a bit more scientific background than I have to understand a lot of that, but I get the point, I think. Snakes have color vision that functions by filtering wavelengths of light and sensing the intensity of each individual color rather than having receptors for individual colors, correct?
> 
> So now what I'd like to know is if an eyelash viper will attempt to eat a similar sized green frog, which still wouldn't prove that it wasn't the smell of a terrib that detered it, but it would show that it knows not to eat poison frogs.


The main thing was to document that snakes can see color, however most toxic color patterns like that seen in dendrobatids are probably not aimed at snakes but birds (ignoring for the moment, that pattern and color in at least on dendrobatid is driven more by mate choice). 

What needs to be kept in mind is that most feeding responses by snakes are driven by a couple of criteria with scent being the overwhelming one for most species. (if it smells like food it must be food) and depending on species, movement being the second driver.O haven't seen anything describing discrimination of food by color in snakes. 

Ed


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Redhead87xc said:


> I thought so. I have always been pro Zoos as I see them as doing more good than bad, but this I cannot support. I realize they are trying to attract attention, but the whole point of a zoo is to educate and preserve species. The tank they are in is absolutely awesome, but I still don't think that it's worth losing frogs over. Thanks for the reply.


That is exactly what that zoo is doing...educating and preserving species.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

earthfrog said:


> It's really a shame that we have to lose valuable input because of a few cantankerous posts. I have seen all too well how that drama and combative attitude drives the knowledgeable and kind folks away from forums and prevents learning and healthy discussion.
> 
> Kudos to you for hanging in here even though there are often callous remarks made. The frogs will certainly benefit from your comments in the long run.
> 
> I hope at some point the climate can change so that they feel more comfortable and not have to fear a flame war from outsiders. I would certainly want the benefit of reading what other zookeepers have to say on this issue.


This is very true. The only reason I still post here occasionally about these topics is because I can't back down from a fight. It's a character flaw...


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I had a wonderful working relationship with the Cincinnati Zoo for many years, so much so that tey asked me take and breed some of their animals at a point in time. They basically taught me all of my early dart frog keeping skills and man do i wish i could flash back to some of those points in time!!!


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## Jerseylotte (Apr 19, 2008)

Hi all, 

I know this topic is ancient, but I stumbled across it, I just wanted to point out that the enclosure is at Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust aka Jersey Zoo in the British Channel Isles.

The enclosure also houses four O. pumilio.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

Redhead87xc said:


> I was browsing youtube videos on some darts and found from the New Jersey Zoo and saw that they had mixed eyelash vipers with Yellow Terribilis. I immediately thought, "Won't the snakes try and eat the frogs?" I was shocked that they would mix these two different animals in one enclosure and have success. Any input. I have read that they do eat frogs, lizards and other animals in the wild and don't see why this would be different in captivity. Here is the link to the video on youtube.
> 
> YouTube - Eyelash Vipers and Golden Poison Dart Frogs at Jersey Zoo


I believe there was some discussion on this and similar topics awhile back....some tropical snakes will strictly (or near strictly) not eat amphibians. I believe the topic was talking about ETB's, but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happens here


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

They are probably well fed and mammal or chick habituated.

Frogs are very liked by tropical vipers, and the best keepers who keep them often feed them treefrogs and ranid froglets, etc especially when they are babies as some will refuse all other prey, as frogs are their natural diet especially as juveniles, and to avoid stressing the snake with assist feeding as well as avoiding getting envenomated. As vipers are the fastest striking snakes on the planet.

So they are probably well fed tong feeders and the risk to benefit to exhibit project of a terribilis being eaten is not great.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The Mellow Yellow Club.


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