# Wild Caught Auratus and Pet Stores



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I posted in another thread about my reluctance to sell to pet shops. I have even pretty much halted breeding my auratus over the last year. After the recent Fred thread, I came away with the idea that maybe I need to change my attitude. The huge numbers of auratus imported (according to the cites list) makes me feel a bit ill.

"2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 
D. auratus 2099 505 3834 4556 6283 8442 8184 7353 8730"

I know that auratus are not considered threatened, but I have read that certain morphs could be. Just with my 2 breeding groups of auratus I could supply my local stores with a couple hundred a year. I know that my stores do order from wholesalers who have wild caught frogs. If many hobbyists sold their auratus to local shops ..would it change the numbers? If it did decrease the demand for auratus, what negative impact would it have on other species? Would it negatively impact responsible vendors? 

What thoughts does the board have on this? 

Sally


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with your logic in my opinion... You wouldn't be making much profit, most likely since the pet store buying WC is probably paying very little... Every frog you sell to the store is one less frog they buy imported.

Now if we could get one of you in every town in the USA...


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

That would probably depend on supply and demand too. If you local pet store can buy the froglets cheaper as wild caught than they can from you then they will probably continue to purchase wild caught. Are you willing to sell your froglets for less that the wc suppliers do?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

One has to really think of it this way, for each frog you sell to the pet store, regardless if it dies in the store or in the hand of an impulse purchaser or a suitable caretaker down the road, that is one less frog that is being wild caught and subjected to death. While we may not see a total cessation of the collection of wild caught frogs, the actual scale can be impacted and reduced over time. 

As a further practice, you can also see if the store would buy insect cultures to sell with the frogs which will increase the probability of the frog surviving. Also consider seeing if the store will pay you to modify enclosures to be ff proof as this would be a bigger selling point for frogs.. 

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

As far as price goes...I have had no problem selling my auratus for $20 each andI to date I have only sold frogs over 3 months of age. I am guessing avoiding shipping and at least in one of the stores cases - being able to say captive bred has helped counter the "cheap" factor. 

and I am positive sure you don't want ME at every town but maybe auratus 
Sally


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

It's been my understanding that the imported auratus sometimes come in with pumilio shipments as a kind of mandatory quantity addition. I've heard of some importers that have to purchase a certain # of auratus with their pumilio in order to make a deal with the individuals collecting the frogs. They are easy to find, and have some overlap ranges shared with various pum locales, so it becomes an easy way for the collectors to tack on a few hundred extra dollars to their shipments. I do also agree that the quantities are appalling.


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## Martydart (May 14, 2010)

Sally, I have gone to the CITES (Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species of Wilfd Fauna and Flora) website [www.cites.org] and cannot find where they post the number of D. Auratus exported/imported or internationally traded. Please advise whereyou found your numbers (ostensibly, of imports of auratus to the U.S.) in the cites list? I am tremendously interested in where CITES posts the number of species traded and by what member country. Thanks.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

So in theory, if you reduce the demand for auratus you could reduce the amount of pumilio imported as well...

Sally




Dane said:


> I've heard of some importers that have to purchase a certain # of auratus with their pumilio in order to make a deal with the individuals collecting the frogs. They are easy to find, and have some overlap ranges shared with various pum locales, so it becomes an easy way for the collectors to tack on a few hundred extra dollars to their shipments.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

srrrio said:


> So in theory, if you reduce the demand for auratus you could reduce the amount of pumilio imported as well...
> 
> Sally


Actually I think the converse would be true. Reducing the demand for WC pumilio would mean that fewer auratus are being collected as afterthought inclusions.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

srrrio said:


> So in theory, if you reduce the demand for auratus you could reduce the amount of pumilio imported as well...
> 
> Sally


There may be some validity to this. I would bet the the majority of people buying WC pumilio at a "Mom and Pop" pet store are not there to purchase a pumilio per se, they are there to get a $60 frog (if they're not just making a spontaneous purchase). If said store was filling that niche with captive bred auratus, they might feel inclined to purchase less WC pumilio.

Just a thought...purely speculation.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Conservation by Captive breeding.

I believe in it. Every little bit helps. Be prepared to accept LOW prices for your frogs though.

Why do all those thousands of imported Auratus come in when not a lot of people seem to be buying them or "desiring" them in the hobby???

They are often used as "filler" by exporters. They are an abundant, easy to catch animal that importers use to pad their sales and make for money.

You almost always cannot just import, say, 150 Colon area pumilio. To get those....you will be required to accept and pay for a lot more - like the auratus and virtually anything else that the exporter has overstock of, laying around, or can easily get their hands on.

This accomplishes two things. It makes "cherry picking" a species almost impossible and the most important - it puts the most money that the exporter can get in their pocket.

The exotic animal trade for the U.S hobby is NOT like a regular business. There is no steady or even predictable flow, like other products or hard goods. The shipments and sales are sometimes few and far between due to collection, animal activity, seasonal, economic, political....you name it. So when the chance for an export comes along...the exporters have to make sure they get the most bang for their buck.

Hence the easily collected pad or filler animals - not always frogs either .Boas, tree frogs and turtles are all nice, bang for the buck fillers.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I haven't sold any frogs to the local pet stores but have considered it for the reasons above. We have two Pet MEGASTORES (without naming any particular chain) that I wouldn't even consider selling to just based on the ignorance of the staff related to exotic animals and the poor condition of their reptiles and amphibians.

There is a small pet shop that is owned by a guy who has become a friend. He specializes in salt and freshwater fish and products. He keeps a couple of his own reef tanks that are spectacular and he has even started propagating soft and hard corals from his personal stock for sale. This helps him make some extra money and, similar to the dart frogs, reduces the amount of WC live coral he has to order.

He doesn't know much about dart frogs, but I'm considering working with him to set up a couple of vivs in his shop and sell some of my surplus frogs and plant cuttings to off-set some of the costs for me to continue in the hobby. I hadn't thought of offering FF cultures, but that's a great idea! I could see even being willing to consult with serious purchasers to get them started on the right path, introduce them to this site, etc., so they don't just buy them and let them die. 

If we approached it this way, like the captive "bred" corals, it should have a positive impact.

On the other hand, playing the devil's advocate, if relatively inexpensive dart frogs become more available, it could increase the number of amatuer hobbyists, thus increasing the demand.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Ed said:


> As a further practice, you can also see if the store would buy insect cultures to sell with the frogs which will increase the probability of the frog surviving. Also consider seeing if the store will pay you to modify enclosures to be ff proof as this would be a bigger selling point for frogs..
> Ed


Yes I agree! I have even supplied my own 10g tanks with basic, but proper set up, for the frogs it housed, and it has worked out pretty well. The store returns the tank after the frogs are sold and of course I throw everything out and clean, clean, clean the tank.



Dane said:


> Actually I think the converse would be true. Reducing the demand for WC pumilio would mean that fewer auratus are being collected as afterthought inclusions.


I guess I was looking at it from the perspective that is would be easier to supply auratus demand then the pumilio demand. If you take the extra money out of the wc pumilio trade by supplying auratus , maybe less incentive to catch pumilio?




Boondoggle said:


> There may be some validity to this. I would bet the the majority of people buying WC pumilio at a "Mom and Pop" pet store are not there to purchase a pumilio per se, they are there to get a $60 frog (if they're not just making a spontaneous purchase). If said store was filling that niche with captive bred auratus, they might feel inclined to purchase less WC pumilio.
> 
> Just a thought...purely speculation.


I had not thought of this point but in the same vein, pumilio are a bigger ticket item and if their price is high, I would like to think that a first time dart buyer in a pet store would be more likely to buy that big metallic green and black auratus for 40 then the itty bitty strawberry pumilio for 100. Actually that is exactly how I bought my first auratus only I think it was $70 and they had some pumilio for around $130 about 5 years ago. 

And JimO I agree I was not really thinking of big box pet stores. I also would kind of hate to see the price of any dart frog fall below a $20 retail mark.

Sally


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## Martydart (May 14, 2010)

Sally, again where did you find the numbers of auratus imports on the CITES site please?


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Martydart said:


> Sally, again where did you find the numbers of auratus imports on the CITES site please?


Marty,

Go to CITES main page > select Export Quotas > now select Trade Database

From there you can select country of origin, import country, ....


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Hell, I would love to buy a Dart Frog in a pet store.
But, because they`re venomous, poisonous, have fangs and can kill you just by looking at them, they cannot be sold legally here in CT.

I can, however, buy a Python large enough to swallow my kitchen table.

Anyway I would much rather support our starving sponsors!!

John


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## Kugamazog (May 12, 2010)

I think one of the important points to take away from this discussion is there is a market for pet stores to purchase from a consistent, local breeder. I don't think we are at the point that pet stores will turn down pdfs because captive bred aren't lucrative enough.

I think that if a breeder was able to match or beat the going price on WC wholesale to a shop; we would be able to eliminate a lot of the problem. Disseminating more of the prolific CBs would probably simply replace most of the demand.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

I have a local petstore who's owner is a friend of mine. If I recall correctly, his wholesale price that he could get leucs at would be about $50. He was bummed when I told him I bought 4 for $110 from one of our members, but of course he doesn't have the time to go running around the bay area to pick up a few frogs. He'll be happy to buy my future froglets thought for at least 25, and that's worth it to me since he's local.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

srrrio said:


> And JimO I agree I was not really thinking of big box pet stores. I also would kind of hate to see the price of any dart frog fall below a $20 retail mark.
> 
> Sally


Neither would I. However, at some point both the pet stores and new hobbyists would likely be willing to buy CB even at a higher price after they've sustained the losses associated with "cheap" WC specimens. If you know the pet store owner and are willing to help him/her understand and care for dart frogs, and if you are willing to give the customers some advice and provide care sheets (complete with a link to this site ), I think they'd be willing to pay a fair price. If not, then they probably aren't serious about it, and I wouldn't want to sell my froglets to them. Impulsive buyers who want to pay $20 would probably kill the frogs anyway.


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

I know for a fact as I was a manager at a pet store in charge of ordering forgs that auratus were around $25 wholesale. I sold my auratus and coblat froglets to the store for $18 a piece and they were begging me for more since the mark-up would be lower.


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