# How long does repashy vitamin a last?



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I've read that repashy calcium + is only good for 6 months after you open it, is there a similar shelf life for repashy vit a?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Can we add superpig to this question as well?

For some reason I am thinking the same 6 months will apply, but that is just my prediction.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Yea, why not? I'd like to know that as well.

And, random side note, I can't read "superpig" without getting this stuck in my head:


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Just a tiny little bump here.

I'm going to a show tomorrow and, if possible, would like to know this info before I buy the products.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

As far as I know all supplements have a roughly 6 month shelf life if refrigerated. Your supposed to take about 2 weeks worth out in a dark container(film canisters work great) so light won't penetrate the container as that can also shorten the life. The rest you can put in a brown paper bag in the fridge till you need more. Without the fridge it is much less.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Calcium plus contains Vitamin A, so do we need that in addition? I think we should probably buy some SuperPig though, I think that contains different ingredients. 

If we can get Allen to chime in on this it would be incredibly helpful.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Dev30ils said:


> Calcium plus contains Vitamin A, so do we need that in addition? I think we should probably buy some SuperPig though, I think that contains different ingredients.
> 
> If we can get Allen to chime in on this it would be incredibly helpful.


I read a very interesting artical in Leaf Litter recently thanks to Ed that seems to indicate that we need multiple sources of Vit A, including several vert important precursors, which are found in Superpig. I believe a small amount of these is included in Cal +.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I read a very interesting artical in Leaf Litter recently thanks to Ed that seems to indicate that we need multiple sources of Vit A, including several vert important precursors, which are found in Superpig. I believe a small amount of these is included in Cal +.


The calcium plus contains 6% superpig.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

From what I've read cal+ has small parts of superpig and vitA in it, but that add'l vitA can be good for adult frogs so I'm considering getting some.

Sounds like 6 months is everyone's best guess?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pacblu202 said:


> As far as I know all supplements have a roughly 6 month shelf life if refrigerated. Your supposed to take about 2 weeks worth out in a dark container(film canisters work great) so light won't penetrate the container as that can also shorten the life. The rest you can put in a brown paper bag in the fridge till you need more. Without the fridge it is much less.


Shelf life may be extended when properly stored in a refrigerator. There isn't any independent documentation for this at this time, but shelf life in a cool dark place (ie, not in the frog room) based on older trials on supplements recommends switching over every six months (I can dig up the review but I think it was Dr. Donoghue a specialist in herp nutrition and original founder of Walkabout Farms (now closed). 

As long as the supplement is in the original packaging and that packaging is opaque (like the Repashy contaniers and bags), then it is fine. I'm not sure about the paper bag reference but just in case, it should be stored in a relatively impervious storage container (not a baggie inside a paper bag) as otherwise too much moisture can penetrate which speeds up degredation. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dev30ils said:


> Calcium plus contains Vitamin A, so do we need that in addition? I think we should probably buy some SuperPig though, I think that contains different ingredients.
> 
> If we can get Allen to chime in on this it would be incredibly helpful.


It depends, there are anecdotal reports of anurans with significant deficiency of vitamin A (SLS froglets, infertility, high levels of death in the egg), and the use of the standard Repashy calcium plus, or Supervite did not reverse the problems however, once treated with vitamin A for several months, the Repashy Calcium plus appeared to be sufficient to prevent the anurans from returning back to the signs of deficiency (I should note, that necropsies with histology to look for squamous metaplasia would really help to settle the question permanently). 

It is possible that a longer usage of Calcium plus would have eventually corrected the problem or using Calcium plus with the imposition of a dry season to reduce demand for vitamin A and carotenoids for egg provisioning would have corrected the issue. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Ed said:


> Shelf life may be extended when properly stored in a refrigerator. There isn't any independent documentation for this at this time, but shelf life in a cool dark place (ie, not in the frog room) based on older trials on supplements recommends switching over every six months (I can dig up the review but I think it was Dr. Donoghue a specialist in herp nutrition and original founder of Walkabout Farms (now closed).
> 
> Ed


That would be useful, if you have time. Some of us apparently need to prove to some other people, WHY, suppliments should be replaced regularly.  Snarky inside joke intended.

Also Ed if you have any kind of report that shows the reasoning behind why vitamins should be kept cool and out of light, that would be fantastic. I know that for most of us, this is just generally accepted.

Do you know, have any kinds of trials actually been run to show the difference on vitamin levels in cool cark containers vs warm, clear ones?

Doug


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> That would be useful, if you have time. Some of us apparently need to prove to some other people, WHY, suppliments should be replaced regularly.  Snarky inside joke intended.
> 
> Also Ed if you have any kind of report that shows the reasoning behind why vitamins should be kept cool and out of light, that would be fantastic. I know that for most of us, this is just generally accepted.
> 
> ...


To summarize your question read the top paragraph of page 6. The reference pages at 18-20 will direct you to more specific articles if you want. 

Vitamins In Foods: Analysis, Bioavailability, and Stability - George F.M. Ball - Google Books


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> That would be useful, if you have time. Some of us apparently need to prove to some other people, WHY, suppliments should be replaced regularly.  Snarky inside joke intended.


At this point, it is considered to be well accepted in the veterinary literature for example on page 954, Overview of Amphibian Medicine; second column, second paragraph of Mader etal, Reptile Medicine and Surgery 2nd edition, 2006; simply states the following 


> Even multivitamin with sufficient vitamin A at the time the container is opened lose thier potency if the supplement is stored in areas that have both high humidity, warm temperatures or both. A multivitamin supplement should be used within six months of breaking the seal on the container. If the supplement is stored improperly, it should be replaced more frequently.


To find the original literature would require some significant backtracking. 
With that said, powdered supplements by thier own nature allow oxygen and moisture to access all parts of the vitamin mixture. The fat soluble vitamins with emphasis on A and E, are sensitive to breakdown when exposed to oxygen and humidity which results in the addition of oxygen bonds at points where double bonds occur in the molecule. This reaction is basically the same process that occurs when fats become rancid. Exposure to oxygen also results in the breakdown of folic acid. (see for example this http://www.dsm.com/en_US/downloads/dnp/51610_fort_basics_stability.pdf reference) 

Most plastics allow the penetration of oxygen which is why you should really try to use the freshest supplements (Nutrition chapter, Reptile Medicine and Surgery). In addition, (I am unaware of any that flush the containers at packaging), supplements are packaged with regular atmosphere which allows oxyen to already be present in the containers. I am not aware of any supplements that flush the containers with gases that would reduce oxydation (like nitrogen). The closest I think we see are the silver foil packages of the Repashy products that are at least partially evacuated and then sealed reducing/removing a lot of the atmosphere. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Also Ed if you have any kind of report that shows the reasoning behind why vitamins should be kept cool and out of light, that would be fantastic. I know that for most of us, this is just generally accepted.
> 
> Do you know, have any kinds of trials actually been run to show the difference on vitamin levels in cool cark containers vs warm, clear ones?
> 
> Doug


 
As I noted above it would require a lot of back digging to pull up the actual references but it is well established in the food science, veterinary and medical literature that exposure to light, heat, oxygen and moisture, degrades vitamin content of supplements over time. Powdered supplements by thier very nature are permeable and readily impacted by these products which speed up the degredation of the molecules. In addition, catalyzed breakdown can occur in supplements which contain calcium, D3 and other fat soluble vitamins (check out the labels on Rep-cal and Herptivite) which is listed as a reason for at least one manufacturer to sell them seperately. 

Do you really want to discuss the oxidation of double bonds in lipiphilic compounds?  

Ed


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I may have read an answer just now, and not known it...

But why is it recommended to have a small supply at room temp to use when needed? 

Is it just to minimize opening the one in the fridge and exposing it to the elements?

Or does chilled powder (vitamins etc.) have some weird outcome on frogs if fed cold.

Thanks, 

Tommy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdooley195 said:


> I may have read an answer just now, and not known it...
> 
> But why is it recommended to have a small supply at room temp to use when needed?
> 
> ...


If you keep all of your supplements at room temperature then the rate of breakdown of the vitamins is increased, by only keeping a small amount as needed at room temperature helps manage it. 
Also pulling a large amount out of the refrigerator and letting warm up typically results in condensation from room humidity in/on the supplement which not only can cause caking and clumping, but increases the rate of breakdown of the supplement. 
The caking and clumping as the supplement comes up to room temperature can be very bad if cold supplements are dumped on a warm batch of flies and can result in the limbs of the insect being glued to the body preventing movement (and thus feeding on them by the frog). 

Some comments

Ed


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## azrickster (Jul 28, 2009)

For this reason, I really wish they sold the supplements in even smaller quantities for those of us with small collections. I end up throwing away 75% of my supplements every six months.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Pacblu202 said:


> As far as I know all supplements have a roughly 6 month shelf life if refrigerated. Your supposed to take about 2 weeks worth out in a dark container(film canisters work great) so light won't penetrate the container as that can also shorten the life. The rest you can put in a brown paper bag in the fridge till you need more. Without the fridge it is much less.


Repashy comes in foil bags so light shouldn't be an issue and i just keep mine in the fridge in the basement. Also, the calcium plus used to be called calcium w/ ICB. They changed the name to calcium plus when they started using pictures on the labels. I just asked allen about this yesterday because i still had a bag of icb laying around which he said was definitely expired.  I recently ordered more cgd and cal+ so im good.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The reason I recommend that you keep most in the fridge and a small amount out, and easy to use, is this. If you pull your main container out of the fridge every time you are feeding, it is only a matter of time before most of us get distracted and leave it out. Leave it out once or twice any you may have done more damage (as Ed described) than just leaving it out altogether. 
It's pretty easy to get distracted in there...escaping frog, new clutch of eggs, or even just the phone can pull us away and ruin a batch of vitamins.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

azrickster said:


> For this reason, I really wish they sold the supplements in even smaller quantities for those of us with small collections. I end up throwing away 75% of my supplements every six months.


Find another frogger in your area and split a bag with them.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Find another frogger in your area and split a bag with them.


^This. 

That's what Adam and I are doing tomorrow.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Make sure to store it in a opaque container with as much air as possible excluded in a cool, dark place..... 

If you think about it, as you get into smaller and smaller containers, the cost of packaging probably rises (labels, container, lids, equipment able to provide the same amount each time), along with labor costs. When I worked in small batch pharmaceutical manufacturing, small containers were a significant increase in labor and cost. 

In addition, there is a perception bias, ("what I spent X dollars and that is all they sent me, heck I can get twice as much with this brand") on what is considered a good deal. 

Ed


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Ed said:


> Shelf life may be extended when properly stored in a refrigerator. There isn't any independent documentation for this at this time, but shelf life in a cool dark place (ie, not in the frog room) based on older trials on supplements recommends switching over every six months (I can dig up the review but I think it was Dr. Donoghue a specialist in herp nutrition and original founder of Walkabout Farms (now closed).
> 
> As long as the supplement is in the original packaging and that packaging is opaque (like the Repashy contaniers and bags), then it is fine. I'm not sure about the paper bag reference but just in case, it should be stored in a relatively impervious storage container (not a baggie inside a paper bag) as otherwise too much moisture can penetrate which speeds up degredation.
> 
> Ed


So Ed would how long you say it's lasts then? Just still replace every 6 months?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pacblu202 said:


> So Ed would how long you say it's lasts then? Just still replace every 6 months?


 


Ed said:


> At this point, it is considered to be well accepted in the veterinary literature for example on page 954, Overview of Amphibian Medicine; second column, second paragraph of Mader etal, Reptile Medicine and Surgery 2nd edition, 2006; simply states the following
> Quote:
> Even multivitamin with sufficient vitamin A at the time the container is opened lose thier potency if the supplement is stored in areas that have both high humidity, warm temperatures or both. A multivitamin supplement should be used within six months of breaking the seal on the container. If the supplement is stored improperly, it should be replaced more frequently.


The above statement also holds for single vitamin supplements like straight vitamin A in a carrier or vitamin D3... 
Some comments

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Find another frogger in your area and split a bag with them.


My thoughts exactly. Alot does come in a bag and unless you have a big collection you will never use it all in 6months before it expires. Some people just don't have anyone locally that they can share with.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

4 oz Repashy Calcium Plus -- $8
Shipping -- $6
Total -- $14 for a 6 month supply.
That's less than 8 cents per day. Not a bad price to pay to make sure your frogs are nice and healthy.
A smaller size might seem better to you, but remember, there is a price point that Allen has to break. A smaller size might still cost $8 after packaging, manufacturing, advertising, product testing, and most importantly, research, so he can continue to bring us quality products.


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## Nate Mcfin (Sep 22, 2010)

Complete noob here. I am still doing my homework and prep so forgive the question if the answer is obvious. Sorry to bring this thread up here but my question seems to fit the thread.
Would it be possible to use a Food Saver (vacuum sealer) to make smaller packages to make it last longer?
I will only have a small group of frogs so I wont go through much.Noone locally that I know of so sharing wont happen.


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

If you read thru thread, the consensus is 6mo after seal is broken. To reaseal helps you get the 6 months that's it. One more time 6 months that's it


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

bobrez said:


> If you read thru thread, the consensus is 6mo after seal is broken. To reaseal helps you get the 6 months that's it. One more time 6 months that's it


6 months refrigerated....how about un-refrigerated?


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

I'm sure it's very complicated an expensive to test every scenario. What happens is the vitamins break down. They break down faster under worse conditions. There's still vitamins in there after 6mo but it's the ratio/potency that suffers. To get the bests supplements refresh them any an all ways possible  I hope that helped


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

bobrez said:


> I'm sure it's very complicated an expensive to test every scenario. What happens is the vitamins break down. They break down faster under worse conditions. There's still vitamins in there after 6mo but it's the ratio/potency that suffers. To get the bests supplements refresh them any an all ways possible  I hope that helped


Oh, I'm fully aware of why the shelf life is decreased, just wondering how long vitamins remain viable when kept at room temp in an opaque container.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Tinctoc said:


> 6 months refrigerated....how about un-refrigerated?





Tinctoc said:


> Oh, I'm fully aware of why the shelf life is decreased, just wondering how long vitamins remain viable when kept at room temp in an opaque container.


Confused as to what you are after here. 6 months has been presented many times in this thread.
You understand that they begin breaking down and losing potency the moment you open the container and beyond, right? Keeping them longer than 6 months is not recommended. 
So if you keep them at room temperature, they should be replaced after 6 months. If you keep them refrigerated, they should probably still be replaced after 6 months, BUT it will remain fresher and more potent for that 6 months.
There is no "off switch". They are not good one day and worthless the next. It is a gradual process and the best guideline is to replace them every 6 months. Keeping them refrigerated, dark, dry, and airtight, will help keep them as potent as possible, during that 6 months.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> There is no "off switch".


Hmmmmmm.................I must have a newer bag than yours because there's an "off" switch on mine. It says "turn off" after 6 months


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

> What about I bury it in the back yard and dig it up in a year. Would it still be fresh


Lol I get it


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## Nate Mcfin (Sep 22, 2010)

bobrez said:


> What about I bury it in the back yard and dig it up in a year. Would it still be fresh


 Not really sure how vacuum sealing and burying it in the back yard are the same but.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> =You understand that they begin breaking down and losing potency the moment you open the container and beyond, right? Keeping them longer than 6 months is not recommended.


Actually, since the containers are not stored under an inert atmosphere (and contain oxygen etc), degredation starts at the point of manufacture..... 

Also it just isn't the fat soluble vitamins that begin to break down, those in mixed multisupplements are catalyzed and can occur more quickly but breakdown of the other vitamins also occurs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

*Begging the Question...*

It seems to me that this thread begs the question "Why aren't either 'Expiration' or 'Born On' dates placed on each package by the manufacturer?"

I never thought of this as an issue until I came across this thread. The thread caused me to replace all my Repashy supplements. (Thank you NEHerp for your one day shipping to NJ!) I never even considered periodic replacement an issue, but 3 of my 4 supplements were purchased over a year ago.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

radiata said:


> It seems to me that this thread begs the question "Why aren't either 'Expiration' or 'Born On' dates placed on each package by the manufacturer?"


Excellent point. I just noticed that today. I had to check my receipts to see when I bought it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> they begin breaking down and losing potency the moment you open the container and beyond, right?





Ed said:


> Actually, since the containers are not stored under an inert atmosphere (and contain oxygen etc), degredation starts at the point of manufacture.....
> 
> 
> Some comments
> ...


Thanks Ed, I worded that exceptionally poorly. Somehow I meant, "and beyond", to convey that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Thanks Ed, I worded that exceptionally poorly. Somehow I meant, "and beyond", to convey that.


At least you didn't confuse hate and have.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: Begging the Question...*



radiata said:


> It seems to me that this thread begs the question "Why aren't either 'Expiration' or 'Born On' dates placed on each package by the manufacturer?"


Because they aren't regulated.. the call for born on dates was begun a number of years ago by Dr. Susan Donoghue in the first edition of Mader et al's Reptile Medicine and Surgery... Some of the supplements do have expiration dates on them but those are estimates and are usually not based on retention samples since again, they aren't regulated (which also explains why there can be such huge variations in what is claimed on the label and what is actually in the container. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

*Re: Begging the Question...*



radiata said:


> It seems to me that this thread begs the question "Why aren't either 'Expiration' or 'Born On' dates placed on each package by the manufacturer?"
> 
> I never thought of this as an issue until I came across this thread. The thread caused me to replace all my Repashy supplements. (Thank you NEHerp for your one day shipping to NJ!) I never even considered periodic replacement an issue, but 3 of my 4 supplements were purchased over a year ago.


I purchase mine directly through Repashy Superfoods for just that reason. I figure the manufacturer most likely has the freshest stock.


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

*Re: Begging the Question...*



Ed said:


> Because they aren't regulated.. the call for born on dates was begun a number of years ago by Dr. Susan Donoghue in the first edition of Mader et al's Reptile Medicine and Surgery... Some of the supplements do have expiration dates on them but those are estimates and are usually not based on retention samples since again, they aren't regulated (which also explains why there can be such huge variations in what is claimed on the label and what is actually in the container.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Ed,

Sad, but true. The pet industry can claim anything they choose to about their products - there is no government agency that will keep them honest. I've had marine specimens for over 40+ years - and I know from whence I speak. The tipsy wife of a once prominent saltwater products manufacturer once admitted that her husband had gotten into the business because it was the *least regulated* of all in the USA.

Seems to me that it would be in the best interests of Repashy to post their born-on-dates on their products, and that it would give them a "leg up" on their competition...

So it goes,
Bob


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