# Top 10 Questions You Would Ask USFWS?



## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Howdy,

One of the tasks we are undertaking as part of TWI is to get a better idea of what is in the hobby, the status or those species, and what to do with species whose background or history is uncertain.

So, I have had a couple conversations with USFWS and will likely have some more in the near future. Your questions would be helpful, and the more technical the better. I'm not looking for "so and so" has this species and am not interested in those kind of details at all. Please do not PM me or post anything that has personal information (including your own) in it. A good example of what I am looking for would be something along the lines of:

* What paperwork should a customer expect a breeder to be able to provide for CITES species?

* How do I find out if species Y from country X which is not listed in the CITES appendices but may be protected by host nation laws and the Lacey act is legal?

* I see that country X has an export quota of Y from species Z. I think that is unsustainable or creates an unfair trade issue. To whom do I forward my concerns?

Species specific questions are OK, but please do some research don't just ask me to send off a laundry list of species and ask their status. Things along these lines are more beneficial:

* According to CITES data from 19XX, species X which is endemic to country Y shows no record of ever leaving country Y. However, there are records of CITES data showing species X coming to country W from country Z coded for trade. Does that mean that country Y has given permission? Can I keep this species?

Let's keep it to things that directly have to do with CITES, Lacy, or from the CITES species and trade databases:

http://www.unep-wcmc.org/citestrade/trade.cfm
http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/species.html

If you have general questions about CITES database usage, or any other miscellaneous stuff, feel free to post that as well.

Thanks,

Marcos


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I am uncertain as to how I feel about getting an "official opinion" on the status of certain frogs in the hobby. Please remember that any action brought by the USFW under the Lacey Act requires the USFW to carry the burden of proof that the original/parent animals were imported illegally. I would hate to see an honest question turned into an unofficial position/precedent established by USFW for ALL animals of a species, even if some legal imports may have existed that USFW has lost track of. Believe me, federal agencies do lose records . . . many quite frequently.

Further, remember that some frogs were imported prior to the inclusion of Dendrobatids being covered under CITES regulations requiring papers, and there are therefore frogs in the hobby that are legal that have no papers.

To the extent that a breeder does not have papers for the offspring of their frogs, there is no reason to believe that thos frogs are illegal. I have yet to find anyone that offers papers for the offspring of the original parents, and it does not seem reasonable to expect that owners of F2, F3, etc. breeders would have papers for each one of the unrelated animals that is uses to breed. Under the Lacey Act, my understanding is that the offspring of illegally imported animals are illegal, but that the offspring of legally imported animlas are legal, and always will be.

This is an issue that can get complicated very quickly, and I think that caution would be the best approach. However, I agree that we need some clarification on what we can expect as legal. Maybe a good place to start is: are there any precedents for hobbyists buying CB Dendrobatids being prosecuted? What is the USFW stance on the trade of frogs that have a long history of being CB in the country? It seems to me that USFW is more likely to try to prosecute at the point of entry where they can show that the animals do not have proper paperwork. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I was USFW, that's where I would concentrate my efforts.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I would be interested in what "paper work" is exactly... a photocopy? a notarized copy? 

Also is there a way to obtain papers for frogs that do not have them? As in the older frogs...


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I want to know when they go on break.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

There's a system used here, where we fill out (not everyone) "transfer papers" I don't think these are official documents but they cetainly keep track off where stock comes from.

CITES papers can be obtained for young animals froglets and Juvi;s some what easily.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Homer,

I'll reply to your concerns in more detail later today.

RE: Paperwork

From what I understand, the CITES paperwork should follow the imported product (term they use since it covers stuff such as mahogany) for the life of the product. For offspring, a breeder's statement is supposed to follow the animal. I haven't been able to find a copy of it, but from what they told me, it would be something like animal X is the offspring of animal Y brought in on permit Z. If I read it correctly, CITES Appendix II animals (which is what dendrobatids are) only require CITES export permits from country of origin (although you may need other customs paperwork for the import). I'm still a little hazy on some of this stuff, and am working with their outreach coordinator about a possible information pamphlet that gives some more concrete examples with sample paperwork.

For the record, there are 3 major players here: the scientific authority, the management authority, and law enforcement. I am dealing with the management authority who overseas permit management. They initiate the permits, send them to scientific for their take, and then finalize the permits.

Marcos


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

What I want to know, and this may seem a bit vague or maybe even a bit simple, but I am hoping to find out what has to be done to import frogs from Europe. Obviously you have to get approval and paperwork, but I guess I am asking can they tell us the exact process that needs to be followed in order to legally import frogs from Europe. Something like a checklist of paperwork and permits needed and how to get them or at least who to contact to get them would be great.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Or what about the process to export from here to Europe.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Information about import/export permits is just a few mouse clicks away:

http://www.fws.gov/le/ImpExp/CommWildli ... Export.htm

and

http://www.fws.gov/permits/importexport ... port.shtml

What I want to know is what Marcos brought up in the first post. If frogs are imported from Europe but those frogs were never legally exported from the country of origin, are those frogs legal? And if so, by who?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Wow, thanks for those links. I read through the site and think I have at least a decent idea of how the process works. It is really as simple (for lack of a better term since it will probably be a huge hassle and not simple at all) as applying for a import/export license, paying $100 for the license fee and then paying $55 dollars for inspection fees when the shipment arrives? Is there more to it than that or do I have a decent grasp of what is needed? Also, are there any special provisions that need to be made or covered or accounted for on the exporters side if I am importing from Europe. This is great info and if any has the answers it would be great and if not maybe these would be some questions to pose to USFW.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

sbreland said:


> Wow, thanks for those links. I read through the site and think I have at least a decent idea of how the process works. It is really as simple (for lack of a better term since it will probably be a huge hassle and not simple at all) as applying for a import/export license, paying $100 for the license fee and then paying $55 dollars for inspection fees when the shipment arrives? Is there more to it than that or do I have a decent grasp of what is needed? Also, are there any special provisions that need to be made or covered or accounted for on the exporters side if I am importing from Europe. This is great info and if any has the answers it would be great and if not maybe these would be some questions to pose to USFW.



From what I've heard, it's not that simple...there is lots of paperwork on the exporting side of it...CITES stuff specifically, and if it's not filled out perfectly, things can turn disasterous...shipping is expensive enough to be cost prohibitive (overnight, obviously...but not via Fed Ex or UPS), has to be shipped through approved ports of entry, packing has to be to CITES specifications, and most of all, from what I've gathered, there are not many people overseas that will go to all that trouble. 

Just what I've heard....

Kristen


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Yeah, the CITES stuff on their side would be interesting to know about but the license fee on this side covers the CITES here (or at least that is they way I read it). Shipping is expensive ($150-200 approximately) but I really think it would be worth that, especially if you gathered togethera few people to make a large order splitting the fees. The port of entry seems a problem but there appears to be ways around that if you can prove that going through a port of entry would be detriminetal and could cause wasting (which it would cause wasting of our frogs lives!). A least, like I said, that's how I read it. Still I would love to learn more and talking to the USFW might be the only way to get straight 100% sure answers.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I didn't look too carefully but it looked to me like there was a CITES application that had to be filled out in addition to the others. But there is also a contact link to ask questions on the site.

I would ask Aaron, Chuck, or others here who have gone through the European import process how "worth it" it is to go through all of this. There are things beyond the permitting process that can bite you in the posterior if you aren't lucky. And I mean lucky because from what I've heard, people have done all the smart things and still ended up losing thousands of dollars doing this sort of thing.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

sbreland said:


> Shipping is expensive ($150-200 approximately) but I really think it would be worth that, .


When shipping live animals you have to use an airline such as BA or another cargo plane fedex, ups ect wont do it.

and it would cost twice or maybe 4 times that :shock: 

It's a long drawn out process alot of hassle and there are very few EU guys that will do it. I could imagine a 60% DOA from anything from germany as they don't seem to pack very well.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

According to UPS.com they will ship an ovenight package from Hamm (just an arbitrary location I chose) to Denver for $176, so I am not sure that is entirely accurate. I don't know about Fedex, but i would think they are similar.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Oh, BTW, sorry for the slight derailment here... if the mods want to please split the last few posts to make a new thread as it is not entirely in the focus of this thread I would be happy to talk about this more without hijacking any more than I have.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

That might be true..... but you cant just ship them like that, the frogs have to go through customs and F&W inspection. they also need copies of the airbill ect so they know excactly what plane it is coming in on.

Shipping animals world wide is not like shipping them across country.

Also fedex,ups don't ship animals worldwide.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

I certainly wish it were as easy as a $100 permit, $200 shipping and shipping them via UPS or FedEx...that would be nice and we would basically have free trade going on between US and Europe. F&W, obviously, is not going to allow that for many reasons.

As far as the exception to using the designated port of entry, it's also not as easy to just say our frogs will die, so I want them sent to my nearest airport. There are ways to get exceptions and have them sent to another port, but the following is one of the hoops you may have to jump through: (off of their site...I remembered seeing this a long time ago)

"If you use a port where we have no officers stationed, you must also pay ALL costs associated with sending a Service officer to inspect your shipment. These costs include the officer’s salary plus any travel and lodging expenses."

If it were that easy, why would people smuggle them illegally even when the risks associated with doing so are high? I think it's because it is very expensive, time consuming and risky to import frogs from overseas and that is IF You can find a seller willing to do it. Disclaimer here...of course I would never condone smuggling...just pointing out that if it were not that difficult to import frogs legally, why would people go about doing it illegally. 

Kristen


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## roberthvalera (Jun 9, 2006)

I might go back to europe in the next few months and wanted to take some of my collection but havent the slightest clue on how to do it. I also wanted to buy frogs in holland/germany and bring them back to Texas when I visit. I guess it would be easier if I had the frogs and brought them on as a carry on but dont know if they would allow that or what kind of paperwork would be needed.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

I would see if you could find out who has had to move overseas, and see what they did in your situation. I know I have heard of a few people that have sold their collections when they have been forced to move. I would think there are other options here, though.

Putting frogs in your suitcase/carryon and travelling to another country is considered smuggling, so you would need the proper paperwork in order to do this unless you want to risk getting caught. Proper paperwork would be all the above that we have been discussing in the past few posts. I think the F&W post got off track...maybe it should be seperated, but that's up to the mods. 

Kristen


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> I might go back to europe in the next few months and wanted to take some of my collection but havent the slightest clue on how to do it.


Steve (that's his user name too) has done some leg work on the topic. He's moving back to GB sometime in the next year or so and wants to take his collection too. Send him a pm and see if he can help.


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