# Do we know yet the true carotenoid responsible for reds?



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Has there ever been a stomach or gut content analysis, say of a tricolor or pumilio? Has there ever been analysis of the carotenoids stored in the xanthophores of a tricolors? I believe somebody said you can dissolve the carotenoids in alcohol.


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi,

I don't know that it's been applied to the pigmentation compounds, but Ralph Saporito at FIU has done loads of stomach flushing of D. pumilio in the Bocas area. The contents go right into alcohol. 

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I apologize if this reply is a bit of a tangent off the topic.

Regarding tricolor colors... I recently introduced a mature female to a group of two young males. None had been fed any color enhancing suppliments. The older female is from a different line and is very red. The males were a darker brown/tan. Within a couple days of introducing them, the color of both males changed significantly. They are alot redder. Their calling frequency is about the same. I've also noticed in the past that the color of the males got a little redder when they'd been calling for a while, but no where near what they are now. Perhaps the power of raging hormones.

Just something else to throw into the color pot.

EricG.NH


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

i don't believe there is a 'true' caroteniod responsible as much as a wide range responsible. Our limited supplementation of only a small spectrum of the caroteniods is the reason we don't get most of our animals up to wild coloration, not our lack of finding "the one".


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Then maybe our goal should be to identify all or most of these carotenoids and then identify whihc supplements carry the most of these compounds. Even better, figure out which combination of supplements comes closeest to the wild profile of carotenoids or best of all monopolize and produce our own supplement that serves us best. I realize it's easier said than done, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of our more scientific minds have some of the answers already and can identify the rest in due time.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are over 500 different carotenoids known to date. In addition some invertebrates and vertebrates modify these carotenoids into other ones (like the yellow in goldfinches). 
Not all of the carotenoids are beneficial and most have an unknown effect on the metabolism (for example canthoaxanthin has been linked with extra cholesterol release from the liver and liver damage). 

Ed


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Hmmm... maybe not so easy then, but would be a helluva research undertaking


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> I apologize if this reply is a bit of a tangent off the topic.
> 
> Regarding tricolor colors... I recently introduced a mature female to a group of two young males. None had been fed any color enhancing suppliments. The older female is from a different line and is very red. The males were a darker brown/tan. Within a couple days of introducing them, the color of both males changed significantly. They are alot redder. Their calling frequency is about the same. I've also noticed in the past that the color of the males got a little redder when they'd been calling for a while, but no where near what they are now. Perhaps the power of raging hormones.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you brought it up. Then, my own suspicions may be somewhat correct. I have noticed that the original female tricolor I had was less red than the two males. They were from the same line, and most likely fed the same diet as tadpoles. While your female was very red, the point is that perhaps mating display could be another reason for coloration. My males were redder than the female. 

Brent Brock and I had a little conservation a while back about color being used for sexual display, and Brent said he thinks its very possible that is why many CB pumilio may just not be as "attractive" in order to rouse mating. (however, hormonal issues could be part of it as well).

However, I have a new female SI because my old girl had to be euthanized  and she is still a year younger than the two males. So, I don't know how well she'll color up because the person i received her and another girl from were given cyclopeeze. I do not know if my two males were given it.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

with tricolor there are a couple specific things that have been noticed with color... tricolor/anothonyi fed significant sources of caroteniod as tadpoles will still morph out like mud (which is typical of _Epipedobates_ and happens for a reason - its not that they don't have red color its that its blocked by melanophores at this stage) but will color up "faster" (when the melanophores reduce when the frog "colors up" the xanothophores are already much stronger than in non-supplemented animals). This jump start also seems to mean that these animals are likely to reach their full potential vs. animals that have not been supplemented as tadpoles. 

With tricolor/anthonyi its also important to note that there seems to be a window of oppurtunity tho its not completely known what it is (two years?) to get these animals supplemented or else they will not color up, no matter the supplement (unlike most of the others which do seem to respond well to supplementation at later ages). This probably has to do with the specific caretaniods invovled, as tricolor/anothonyi hold their color rather well also, where species fade over time.

In theory the female is likely to have a better chance of a fuller color than the males with unsupplemented diets as juvies/tads, but she needs to have continued supplementation in order to do that. The color she is now is likely what she will be until hormones get involved.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

so you're saying that frogs should be continuously supplemented with naturose and other stuff for the first two years, and then you can potentially stop?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Doug,

I don't think that is what she is saying. What she is saying is that (specifically) with tricolor, carotenoid supplementation past a certain age doesn't enhance the color of the adults (this may be carotenoid dependent) but supplementation past this point could very well help the tadpoles and metamorphs be better colored as there are significant levels of carotenoids deposited in the egg. 

A while ago in a different post, I pointed out that with tricolor I would suspect that the metamorphs take awhile to color up to prevent agression on the part of the adults (this is a common theme when there is color dimorphism between juveniles and adults (unless it is so the adults can keep a better eye on the juveniles (like seen in langurs)) but the amount of carotenoid sequestered would have a significant effect on its coloration over time 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ok. Will all types of carotenoids I feed out be deposited, or will only certain ones be passed on for the eggs/ tadpoles/ etc?

Does this to relate to your hypothesis about spindley leg that depending how the adults were fed and what their condition was, it would determine whether or not certain materials would or would not be present for the developing embryos?


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

With regards to Ed's comment about what is called "learners permit" coloration in raptors (immature golden eagles have striking markings that are thought to buy them some protection from the potentially lethal aggression of adults), there is another option: toxins might not have yet built up to the point where aposematic coloration would be useful. It could just draw a Motmot's eye to a tasty frog snack. Perhaps timing of 'color up' is in synch with the sequestration of relevent nasty compounds.

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The coloration developing along with toxicity was another theory I had, tho I'm more inclined towards Ed's thoughts. _Dendrobates_ froglets come out of the water basically mirroring adult coloration and they are not toxic, although their aposematic coloration developed separately from that of _Epipedobates_. Generally speaking with aposematically colored animals... the froglets having adult coloration is what actually keeps them safe until they are truly toxic. Birds like Motmots (I love those birds!) would instinctively avoid the color and pattern of the aposematic toxic frogs in the area they live in, no matter if they are half adult size.

With _Epipedobates _where otogenic (right word?) color changes as the animals mature, the coloration seems to be linked with sexual maturity. This is actually what I have used to gauge out which frogs to remove or not... frogs beginning to color up are becoming sexually mature and in the case of anthonyi/tricolor maturing males, will be beaten up/killed by full sized mature males, or will begin to beat up on smaller froglets in the tank. Maturing animals are moved to another tank with similarly sized animals to smack around that can take it, and not beat them back too hard. The color change, while not all that obvious in the anthonyi Salvias complex (dark brown to wine red not as obvious as in SIs) is rather quick in animals that have been supplemented, just a change in the melanophores covering the xanthophores... the more the animal is supplemented, the more obvious the change. The melanophores are also hormonally controlled... another point in favor of the sexually maturing column.

In tanks where froglets morphed out and were kept with the parents, the mud colored froglets were ignored. Once they started the color change, they were often beaten up and/or killed by adults - at that point they were becoming competition. I learned this the hard way first could times around before I made a major effort to pull froglets before they started maturing.

The caretaniods being used will depend on the specific frog population coloration... caretaniods range from yellow to orange to red... in SIs, which have both red and yellow, the yellow and red caretaniods will be used, with the oranges likely not being used much... that type idea.

And Ed was right... I was basically getting at the fact that you might not be able to change the color of the adult tricolor (2+ years old) but that doesn't mean you can't start the color supplementation through the mother. You're not supplementing for a change in the adult, but rather in kick starting the young. A lot about the tadpole and froglet is determined by the health and supplementation of the adults - especially the female. It's the same idea that a properly fed and supplemented adult will not produce SLS for reasons on the part of the adult (assuming its related to egg health and not genetics of the parents).


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

"Generally speaking with aposematically colored animals... the froglets having adult coloration is what actually keeps them safe until they are truly toxic. Birds like Motmots (I love those birds!) would instinctively avoid the color and pattern of the aposematic toxic frogs in the area they live in, no matter if they are half adult size."

Sorry Corey, I'm not buying it. I don't think this is established scientifically. 

The differences in the development of the genera could be related to the differences in toxcicity as well- in current species or ancestral ones. We know the various lineages vary in the toxins present.

Certainly your observations of the ontogenetic changes in coloration of E.tricolor are of value in testing a hypothesis like this. But the differences amongst the genera make me think more is at work than just the "learners permit."

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The birds recognizing specific colors and patterns of dangerous animals has been tested scientifically with predatory birds in central america, where they were given multiple clay models that looked like snakes. Models with patterns of venomous snakes in the area were not attacked like the non-aposematic models and models showing color and pattern variations that were not present in the area's venomous snake population. This is a well known study and its not a far cry from predation and frogs.

It's a generally excepted theory with aposematic coloration that most predators develop instinctual aviodence of animals with these colors and patterns. Its this theory that I draw the conclusion of the _Dendrobates_ juveniles being protected until their toxins can back them up. It isn't exactly known how long it takes a frog like the Epipedobates to develop toxicity to the point where it would be avoided, but with the development of coloration in the tricolor group the evidence is strong for it being more about interspecies relation than intraspecies relation.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "With regards to Ed's comment about what is called "learners permit" coloration in raptors (immature golden eagles have striking markings that are thought to buy them some protection from the potentially lethal aggression of adults), there is another option: toxins might not have yet built up to the point where aposematic coloration would be useful. It could just draw a Motmot's eye to a tasty frog snack. Perhaps timing of 'color up' is in synch with the sequestration of relevent nasty compounds. "endsnip


I see these as complimentary theories and not as competing ones as it could very well be that both are true. 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Doug,

With respect to your question regarding the carotenoids deposited in the eggs. The answer is we don't know for sure with dart frogs. First off you would need a about a pound of dart frog eggs for analysis for the preliminary data. Then you would have to alter the supplementation of the adults to determine which are and are not sequestered (and whether they are modified prior to sequestering). 

This also doesn't take into account epigenetic effects where high carotenoid diets maybe triggering the ability for the offspring to have a higher coloration (total theory, no evidence just a random thought for a possible cause, more of my holistic looking at our care). 

Ed


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Ed said:


> I see these as complimentary theories and not as competing ones as it could very well be that both are true.
> Ed


Absolutely. My point (however clumsy) was that we cant rule out competing hypotheses without data. And sometimes, not even with data.

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

sbreland said:


> Then maybe our goal should be to identify all or most of these carotenoids and then identify whihc supplements carry the most of these compounds. Even better, figure out which combination of supplements comes closeest to the wild profile of carotenoids or best of all monopolize and produce our own supplement that serves us best. I realize it's easier said than done, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of our more scientific minds have some of the answers already and can identify the rest in due time.


This probably should be split into foods and feeding but there is an old thread on this subject. This web site provides a good list of the various types of carotenoids and good food sources for them. I made a custom dusting powder by dehydrating foods from each of the carotenoid groups although I will say that naturose did a better job of coloring up pumilio.

I have a pile of reprints somewhere that Ed pointed my toward regarding pigmentation in amphibians. Again, there is an old thread about this but many different carotenoids, other compounds, and molecular structures can play into skin pigmentation and coloration. What's more, apparently one size does not fit all with regards to PDF. Supplements that color up E. tricolor do not necessarily work for pumilio.


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