# How much do we need to verify a line is actually the line it was sold to us as?



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ok this question came up on DFZ and I thought I'd post it here too since I'm looking for a consensus and this is the larger group of people....


"Just want to see what the consensus is on this since it came up in another thread. I mentioned in that thread I had 2 super blues I acquired from someone that as far as I knew had a good rep. I then ended up soon reading another thread where that person is referred to as a "frog flipper" which may call there rep into question in the minds of some. For now I want to avoid getting into a debate about frog flipping, what concerns me in this thread is how much verification is reasonable before we can sell frogs as the line they were sold to us as.

So in my particular case the frogs were sold to me as superblues by this dealer. He said one came from Richard Burke and another came from Jerry Barnhart. The names sound vaguely familiar but honestly I'm not sure If I've ever heard of either person. So if you want to comment on whether these people are reputable and/or if they've even worked with superblues I'd be interested to hear about it at least in PM if not publicly. 

So my question is... Is it wrong for me to buy a group of superblues from another dealer like SNDF, make a breeding group consisting of those and the 2 I own already and then sell them as superblues? 

Personally I only really expect that the frogs are sold to me as what they were acquired as unless the person has since obtained information that says they may be something different. And generally I think as long as you represent the animals honestly as what they are supposed to be as far as you know then you are ethically in the clear. That is not to say I don't appreciate a little digging and further verification...just not sure how reasonable it is to expect that in all cases. 

Is the hobbyist who sells/trades the odd frog now and again expected to go to the same lengths as someone who makes their living at shows or even runs a website and ships frogs all over the country? Do we expect more from one then the other and if so when/where do we draw the line?

I'm interested in the general consensus but also personally because I'd like to get more superblues and breed them. But I don't wanna be considered a liar, cheat and/or moron So as long as I'm upfront about the info I have am I golden? Or do I need to go further. (which I kinda am since I'm asking about the people who the seller supposedly got these from)?

Discuss."


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I should clarify, perhaps "lines" was a poor choice of words... Basically all I mean it that the frog is actually what it was sold to me as...how far are we expected to go to verify that? As far as lines go I'm all for increasing genetic diversity but what mainly concerns me in this thread is that my superblues are actually super blues or my other frogs are really what they were sold to me as and that your frogs really are what they were sold to you as and how far we all should go to verify that. (Just to be clear I have no reason to believe the seller misrepresented the frogs at this point, I'm just using them as an example)


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Great topic Dave......Looking to learn this stuff myself.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Id say that knowing what exactly your frogs are and where they come from and what line they are is probably the most important bit of information as a whole we as a hobby can strive for. The advancement of this hobby and the ability to track our frogs in order to set up breeding projects for frogs in need in order to make sure they stick around.
As for how far to go I would say buying from breeders or importers who have a proven track record and even those with good references are a good start. If they cant tell me when and where there frogs came from and all the other needed info in order for me to pass it on I'm not buying said frogs. Everyone deserves a shot at getting into this category old froggers and new but an effort needs to be made by all. If the info you ask for sounds shady investigate it yourself. We put a lot of work into this hobby as a whole so why not go the extra mile?

That said if you are found out to have misrepresented a frog or its lineage owning up to it is the first thing to do and then sharing the info as to where they came from originally by naming names needs to happen so others can be made aware of it in case they have the same line of frogs or even offspring.
Michael


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

poison beauties said:


> Id say that knowing what exactly your frogs are and where they come from and what line they are is probably the most important bit of information as a whole we as a hobby can strive for. The advancement of this hobby and the ability to track our frogs in order to set up breeding projects for frogs in need in order to make sure they stick around.
> As for how far to go I would say buying from breeders or importers who have a proven track record and even those with good references are a good start. If they cant tell me when and where there frogs came from and all the other needed info in order for me to pass it on I'm not buying said frogs. Everyone deserves a shot at getting into this category old froggers and new but an effort needs to be made by all. If the info you ask for sounds shady investigate it yourself. We put a lot of work into this hobby as a whole so why not go the extra mile?
> 
> That said if you are found out to have misrepresented a frog or its lineage owning up to it is the first thing to do and then sharing the info as to where they came from originally by naming names needs to happen so others can be made aware of it in case they have the same line of frogs or even offspring.
> Michael


Sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. I asked this question in the original post but I think it deserves to be asked more pointedly...

As long as I represent the animals to the best of my ability, such as telling prospective buyers exactly what was told to me and by whom am I golden?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> Sounds pretty fair and reasonable to me. I asked this question in the original post but I think it deserves to be asked more pointedly...
> 
> As long as I represent the animals to the best of my ability, such as telling prospective buyers exactly what was told to me and by whom am I golden?


That's really all you can do.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dendro Dave said:


> As long as I represent the animals to the best of my ability, such as telling prospective buyers exactly what was told to me and by whom am I golden?


As long as it's not like...."uh...I got em' from some guy in North Dakota"

and

"hmmm...I'd rather not name names or give away my source"


Those two examples are.....not.....good.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jubjub47 said:


> That's really all you can do.


Well I could go digging to find out how to contact the people the seller told me they got them from, or at least ask around about those people, which I kinda am. Is it ok if I don't bother though as long as I give full disclosure on what I'm told? I think this is one of the reasons we have issues like here recently with a new vendor. People put up on their site the type of animal as they were told, and thats fine but what they don't disclose often is who told them or their reasons for calling an animal by that name/species/morph. Is that what makes all the difference then? As long as I say who told me and/or my justifications as honestly as I can I'm cool?

And very importantly...

Is It ok to breed those animals to other animals operating on the best knowledge I have like in my superblue case?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> Well I could go digging to find out how to contact the people the seller told me they got them from, or at least ask around about those people, which I kinda am. Is it ok if I don't bother though as long as I give full disclosure on what I'm told? I think this is one of the reasons we have issues like here recently with a new vendor. People put up on their site the type of animal as they were told, and thats fine but what they don't disclose often is who told them or their reasons for calling an animal by that name/species/morph. Is that what makes all the difference then? As long as I say who told me and/or my justifications as honestly as I can I'm cool?


Let me play devils advocate a bit here.

Shouldn't the "line" be the be the general history of the animal? Unless you suspect the seller is not disclosing the proper information, the line is the historical stamp on the frogs.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I think the best question that someone can ask is "who imported this frog?" Otherwise, all we're really left with is "I got it from him/her" (which is not particularly helpful). I have learned only to acquire frogs from people that have been in the hobby a long time, as they are much more likely to know how and when the frogs were imported. 

I try to have as few mysteries in my collection as possible, but there are probably a few. (sad emoticon).

Richard.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Woodsman said:


> I think the best question that someone can ask is "who imported this frog?" Otherwise, all we're really left with is "I got it from him/her" (which is not particularly helpful). I have learned only to acquire frogs from people that have been in the hobby a long time, as they are much more likely to know how and when the frogs were imported.
> 
> I try to have as few mysteries in my collection as possible, but there are probably a few. (sad emoticon).
> 
> Richard.


Thats generally my approach,but the problem I run into is locally there are a very limited number of people I can acquire frogs from. So I sometime end up In a situation where I'm at a show and the dealer can tell me who they got them from and what species/morph or even line they are supposed to be but that is about it. In recent years it has been rare that I can afford to buy a large group of frogs and have them shipped from the people I would prefer to deal with and who can give me import source info or were the actual importers. What I can do though is pick up a frog here and there locally and then maybe add to those as part of an online order. Like with the supers I figured ok I'll get these 2 and then maybe add a few more as part of a large order from SNDF when I have more money. 

Also since this came up in the DFZ thread in regards to my superblues...I am not concerned with keeping the lines pure, just the morph. I question the ethics of line breeding superblues so they all breed true. I just want the frogs to all be derived from the same morph so for that part of my questioning we can just pretend we are talking about some frog where line breeding isn't a major part of the issue and just concentrate on getting the morph correct.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

In all reality unless you are the one personally importing the frogs then the "line" history is nothing more then blind faith. All one can do is purchase from a "reputable" person/dealer/breeder and hope that their information is at least as close to accurate as possible. Unless the breeding and tracking is done within a small trusted circle there are too many variables that over the years will blur if not wipe out any and all accuracy of what is linked to a specific collection/import date.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I would also say trust is going to be important in this situation, and in a lot of the animal business it is difficult to find trustworthy people, frog business as well, which is one reason I have dealt with so few people when I have bought frogs over the years. And really make purchases based on research the potential seller and their animals through word of mouth. It seems like in the Age of The Internet too many people seek out the glamour of fancy web sites as a precursor to finding trustworthy animals and people.People should feel comfortable asking questions, as well as being asked questions prior to a transaction.One case I dealt with over the last year involved a well known reptile dealer who when doing shows out of Florida on the east coast would tell people he gets his darts from me, then when he does Florida shows would say he gets his darts from another long term east coast breeder, I had to call him and ask him to correct his behaviour, so I guess I am saying do your homework thoroughly, Bill.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Lineage is incredibly important.

There are some local hobbyists that I'm more than willing to buy from or trade with, but that's because they're other hobbyists and I trust them to take on the same burden of the acquisition of information that I do. However, you'll never see me go to a show and buy frogs from a vendor who makes a living doing frogs. I buy from other hobbyists who are willing to stick with me to walk me through all they know about the frogs. Important questions to ask are "who did you buy the frogs from?" "What line is this frog?" (these are not the same), if you can find a date (a year would be better than nothing) that the parent frogs were brought in to capitivity that would be ideal. Your supplier should at _least_ have enough information to direct you to the person who sold him/her the frogs so you can do your own personal research and _find_ the lineage.

I'm going to agree with Phil. If you start getting vague and ambiguous answers you probably don't want to do business. I'm also going to agree with Bill, some trust does have to come into the equation. However, maybe it's not always a bad thing (especially when dealing with a new supplier) to contact the person who sold your supplier their parent frogs to make sure you're getting the right information.

In regards to your question about whether or not it's okay to breed you superblues with the understanding you have, I would give a conditional "yes." The condition is that you've done what you can to verify that the information you have on them is correct (assuming that your information may have been questionable) _and_ they were imported from the same locality.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Lineage is incredibly important.
> 
> There are some local hobbyists that I'm more than willing to buy from or trade with, but that's because they're other hobbyists and I trust them to take on the same burden of the acquisition of information that I do. However, you'll never see me go to a show and buy frogs from a vendor who makes a living doing frogs. I buy from other hobbyists who are willing to stick with me to walk me through all they know about the frogs. Important questions to ask are "who did you buy the frogs from?" "What line is this frog?" (these are not the same), if you can find a date (a year would be better than nothing) that the parent frogs were brought in to capitivity that would be ideal. Your supplier should at _least_ have enough information to direct you to the person who sold him/her the frogs so you can do your own personal research and _find_ the lineage.
> 
> ...


Thats pretty much my thinking too. As far as my frogs go at this time I have neither had nor have any reason to believe that aren't what they were sold to me as. 

The one is very super blue looking, the other is more teal and bronze but If I understand correctly Its pretty common for the Morph superblues are derived from to throw frogs like that. Also there is the fact that the vendor was selling highlands which are one of the few frogs that can easily be passed off as superblues and they were more expensive. So not a lot of logic in feeding me false info when they could have easily labeled them as Highland and maybe got some more money for them. 

So at the very least if the frogs did turn out not to be superblues it seems it would most likely be an honest mistake. Just for the sake of clarity though let me re-state: I have no reason to believe these are anything other then what I was told they are. 

I'm just trying to figure out whats required for the majority of people to feel like I've done my due diligence regarding the background of these frogs if I were ever to offer to sell/trade them or their offspring. I would like to contact Richard Burke and Jerry Barnhart to get further confirmation and see if I can track down their entry point/origin into the hobby. So if anyone knows anything about them and how to contact them feel free to PM me.


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## Pauliewog (Dec 24, 2010)

Lineage as SOG (enjoy thee acronym) has stated is the truth in the ideal collection of any animal. Coming from a strong African Cichlid breeding background, I highly emphasize the knowledge of the strain of the certain species of animal that you are working with. Breeders who are unfamiliar with their sources are the ones to avoid. As well as any dealers. It is our mission as hobbyists to hold ourselves to the highest standards as we possibly can. We all realize this. As in the future we may be the only ones who hold living historical records of extinct species of wild populations of amphibians that we have come to love...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I'd verify if you plan on breeding them as a lot of people are using people w/ good reps lines even if they have never bred said morph/species. I and others have had this happen often.


jubjub47 said:


> Let me play devils advocate a bit here.
> 
> Shouldn't the "line" be the be the general history of the animal? Unless you suspect the seller is not disclosing the proper information, the line is the historical stamp on the frogs.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frogfarm said:


> I'd verify if you plan on breeding them as a lot of people are using people w/ good reps lines even if they have never bred said morph/species. I and others have had this happen often.


Ya thats basically what I'm doing here. I always knew that happened but over the last couple years I've heard about it more and more. Seems so foolish, its going to get back to people eventually and bite you in the butt....and many people would probably buy the animals anyways if you were just honest from the start. Anyways, I have no reason to believe they aren't superblues...especially the bluest one. About the only other thing it could be is a highland, but like I said he was selling highlands too, and for more money so he easily could have marked this frog as that and tried to sell it for more, but didn't even try. So basically I'm pretty comfortable with the info I have right now, just trying to go the extra mile in this case  Figured while I was asking the general questions I might as well use these frogs as an example while I was at it.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

> The one is very super blue looking, the other is more teal and bronze but If I understand correctly Its pretty common for the Morph superblues are derived from to throw frogs like that.


I think I read that Super Blues throw out a teal froglet at 25 percent rate. Of my 4, 3 are blue and 1 is teal. They are siblings from Adam Butt.


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## nurse3766 (Apr 8, 2010)

i saw the other day wc blue jeans
so i sent the vendor an email
it said "caught from where?"
needless to say he didnt respond. 
BJ cant be wild caught because it is illegal to export them from costa rica.

ive noticed that when u start pinning these weaselly ppl down they stop returning emails or they just dont respond at all.

be careful for example: some ppl and even vendors ie breeders will lie and say they have BJ when they have man creek. so just do research and ask hard questions

*If they wont respond then that is a response in itself*


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

nurse3766 said:


> i saw the other day wc blue jeans
> so i sent the vendor an email
> it said "caught from where?"
> needless to say he didnt respond.
> ...


Just to be clear (again) nothing like that has happened here. I really have no reason to believe they aren't what the vendor claimed they are. I am just trying to do my due diligence, so that If I ever breed/sell/trade these frogs I'll be able to give people as much info as possible. 

But yes it is very good to ask questions and to expect dealers to be able to provide answers, and also to educate yourself.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ok just a lil update on my frogs I used as an example for this question. I have received several PMs and verified that at least 1 frog came from Jerry via adam butt's lilne. 

On the other hand I still only have the original vendor info saying that the adult female I purchased came from Richard Burke, and no one I've been in contact with has mentioned Richard. No reason to question that they came from Richard Burke but I'd like to get more detailed info for this frog like I've now got for the other frog. 

Jerry it seems is everywhere!  But I'm still looking for Richard Burke. I plan to contact the vendor to see if they have contact details, but if anyone else can point me in Richards direction let me know. He can PM me here or you can PM me and I'll give you my personal email to give him if he prefers that if you don't mind passing along the info. Thanks in advance for any further help and thanks for those who have PM'd me and helped, and heck while I'm at it thanks to those who even bothered to read this thread and respond


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Stupid question by a newb but what is frog flipping?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I thought it was the buying/selling of frogs quickly for a profit. In other words, the person isn't actually breeding, caring and raising them before selling.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

stanced said:


> Stupid question by a newb but what is frog flipping?


They buy frogs cheap to sell them for profit. Not that there's anything wrong with that. 

IMO:
I think what separates the 'flipper' from other frog sellers is the 'flipper' doesn't care about frogs, but, looks at them as only a means to make money. They don't put the frogs needs first. They tend to turn the sale around quickly, without taking the time to make sure the frog is healthy and recovered from being moved around. They aren't in it to enjoy the animals or the hobby.


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