# Scindapsus pictus



## mattmcdole (Nov 28, 2006)

I have some of this around the house, and despite the fact that I let it dry out from time to time (I understand it doesn't appreciate this) it does pretty well for me.

I do have a question reguarding toxicity however... I know this is a poisonois plant and can ruin your day if you were to eat it, but what kind of effect would it have on the soil? Is it likely that crickets would be inclined to munch on it and pass the nasty stuff on to frogs?

Pardon the ignorance, but I know very little about plants despite getting such a kick out of having them around the house.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

This has been talked about to a good degree... a good search on this forum for toxic plants will probably dig up some of the long explanations I've posted about this...

Long story short the majority of "toxic" plants we keep as houseplants have chemicals in their tissues to help keep herbivores from munching on them... makes them taste nasty. You frog do not eat the plants, the likelihood of the crickets eating these plants is low (and generally don't feed crickets to frogs that don't eat them within a couple hours), and these chemicals don't leach into the soil.


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## mattmcdole (Nov 28, 2006)

What you've said makes perfect sense and to be completely honest, I assumed most of it (Toxic plants tend to be bitter, etc) but I'd much prefer to look like a fool for asking a silly question than to have someone else pay for not asking the question. As for the issue of the overfeeding of crickets; this is something I am quite familiar with and I see the victims of cricket chew on a near daily basis. But at the same time a certain pecentage of crickets, however small, are likely to disappear in all but the most sparsely planted vivariums so I saw it as a fair concern.

Thanks for the reply Corey, I apologize for committing the DB faux pas of not searching beforehand,  and it's a mistake I don't intend to make in the future. :wink: 

On a less formal note... Has anyone else tried this plant in a vivarium? I was assuming that planting it along a background or side wall may look a little nicer than the ground as this plant looks really nice when it drapes. I also figured that though it likes to keep its roots fairly damp, it probably doesn't want them completely saturated. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I've already admitted to being a complete newb when it comes to plants.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I really adore this plant, and have used it in vivs... currently only in a froglet viv but then again, I'm not into heavily planted tanks, so the fact that it's in any frog tank tells you how much I like it  It loves the humidity and grows well, and all over the place. You can train it pretty easily as well. Being a bit of a creeper, its more likely to grow up, than to grow down away from the light, so plant some of it at the base of a background and let it climb.

As for feeding crickets... with my epipedobates, allobates, phyllobates, and mantellas, extra crickets just don't seem to happen, even in planted tanks with lots of leaf litter. These frogs are very terrestrially oriented and hunt the leaf litter mercilessly, and are thus ideal cricket eaters. The D. tinc tribe tends to eat true fresh hatched pinheads decently, but don't seem to hunt in and around the leaf litter like the others... FFs, which stay above the leaf litter, and are more ant like seem to be much better suited food items. As for the others, I really wouldn't bother as they spend too little time in the leaf litter to make pinheads worth it. The only other exception besides the before mentioned genera may be the eggfeeders... juvies especially hunt in the leaf litter and I've had pumilio hunt down pinheads with little excess running around. Feeding these guys shouldn't just be about what is easiest for us, but also what works best for the frogs....


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Scindapsus pictus...*

...is a nice plant, but can sometimes be a bit tricky, i.e., temperamental (which is why it ain't as popular as some other aroids). I admit it looks great when it shingles, though! Depending on the size of your tank, you may have more luck with Monstera seltipecana or Philodendron 'micans.' And incidentally, these are both neotropical like pdfs.

As for toxicity: bear in mind that what is toxic to one organism can mean little to another. Many herbivores (specifically, folivores) are designed to eat leaves with noxious compounds; think of howler monkeys or iguanas. I know first-hand that poison ivy sucks, but rabbits and deer can eat it like lettuce. We know that many Euphorbs have toxic saps, but herbivorous lizards tortoises do take an ocasional nip with little ill effect.
So I would not worry about most tropicals offered in the plant trade in this regard; the only ones I avoid are Oleander and Croton. 

Conversely, some things may poison animals that did not evolve with them. Bearded dragons, for example, cannot eat English ivy or fireflies!

Hope this helps,

G


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

I agree with George in that this is a cool but tricky plant. For that matter most all the shinglers. Most grow well but can be tricky to get them to shingler. Most of the Aroid shinglers are juvenile foliage of a much larger plant. Scindapsis pictus is no exception but I don't think I have ever seen mature leaves on this plant.
Not being a dart frog keeper I am sort of puzzled at the toxic plant issue. What types of toxins would frogs be likely to encounter? I guess I should do some searching here to find out the answer. I understand the issues with animals like iguanas since I have lost 2 long term pets to plants when they happen to get out and sample the local vegetation (ivy). Ingesting is one thing but contact poisoning?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I wouldn't bother planting an established plant in a viv... home depot and lowes might carry wonderful little 3.8" pots for a decent price, but place those plants in the tank and they often rot... this is the case for most of these plants... they are grown in different conditions, and unless you take the time and effort to acclimate, they will often rot out. Instead, take cuttings off the plant, and use those small cuttings in the tank. This is one of the reasons I really love Cloud Jungle... he sells cuttings instead of grown out plants that are likely not adapted to terrarium conditions. I keep hanging baskets of my favorite vines, and trim off the trailing vines for use in tanks.

I've yet to find plants that we can easily get ahold of that have contact effects on frogs... the only cases would be with some plants with saps, but what would a frog do to the plant that would cause them to come in contact with the sap? Nothing likely... Frogs have different skin make ups than we do so even plants we have issues with, they don't seem to have problems with.

With toxicity of a plant and herbivores, herbivores that have evolved with the plants often have very good tolerance (such as Solomon Island Skinks which ADORE pothos, yet the same plant can cause serious issues with dogs and kids... the skinks evolved with the plants). When you have a case of a species eating a species that it does not occur with in the wild, you can have some very serious affects... especially since they didn't evolve with them and wouldn't recognize them as dangerous. This relationship is very distant to frogs, since frogs don't directly interact negatively towards plants, the plants don't have negative things towards the frogs... why should they? Defense involves a lot of plant energy, especially chemicals, so there is no point wasting them on something that you don't need to defend against.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Thanks Corey  
This is the most reasoned discussion I have seen of toxic plants as they relate to frogs. Let me tell you I have crushed, mangled, touch and yes even eaten many plants said to be toxic and I am not recommending it to anyone but I am still here and I'm not a frog nor lizard. :shock:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I should probably cut and paste this stuff into an article then, lol. Add it to my growing collection... need to start an article index :shock: "Corey's Random Things to Think About Article Collection"... coming soon!


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

I think so! I normally just have random thoughts of beer.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I get around random thoughts of beer by having a beer when I write my articles  

*cracks open a harp* ok... lets see about getting this into an article!


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> I get around random thoughts of beer by having a beer when I write my articles
> 
> **cracks open a harp** ok... lets see about getting this into an article!


Why drink watered down urine? Go grab a Woodchuck! :lol: 

I've not had trouble with this plant aside from being to dry. I'm not sure what I'm doing any differently though. It seems to be a great candidate for the viv as far as in cutting form goes.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Cory, I hope you do make this reasoning generally available, because the issue comes up time and time again. If we had to worry about every plant we introduce into a live vivarium being "toxic," in one way or another, there wouldn't be many choices left for us to use. 

I should also point out that many people use the Scindapsus aureus varieties and hybrids regularly, especially as convenient cuttings for temporary tanks, and is what they generally refer to as "pothos," although true "Pothos" is a closely related, but separate genus. In some of my older house plant books (and I mean REALLY old) the S. pictus varieties were also called "pothos." 

I grew one of the Scindapsus pictus argyraeus in my home in Nevada, where it produced 15 foot long stems that were trained back and forth over the beams, rarely losing a leaf. 

Harry Whitmore-- Would you define a "shingler" for me? I tend to think of this as a plant with overlapping, tight leaves, so got a little confused when you mentioned the S. pictus as a "shingler."


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

slaytonp said:


> ...Harry Whitmore-- Would you define a "shingler" for me? I tend to think of this as a plant with overlapping, tight leaves, so got a little confused when you mentioned the S. pictus as a "shingler."


I'm not Harry but I can help you out...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The reason the common name is "pothos" is because the species was originally described in the _Pothos_ genus... and has since been moved around... I'm not entirely sure which name is the most current tho... _Scindapsus aureus_ or _Epipremnum aureum_... I believe _Epipremnum_...

_S. pictus_ also share the name "Pothos"... as in Satin Pothos. I don't know if this is because it was ever in the genus _Pothos_, or because Pothos is/was a _Scindapsus_ and they just didn't know the origin of the common name or what...

Atone, I already drank the Woodchucks. It was either harp, or coronas... and harp isn't nearly as watered down tasting as corona.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> ...
> Antone, I already drank the Woodchucks. It was either harp, or coronas... and harp isn't nearly as watered down tasting as corona.


 :lol:


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Antone, those plants look like Dischidia, not Scindapsus pictus, and are what I do think of as a shingler, but when I grew the S. pictus, it did not form "shingles," but actually grew more like a loose vine rather than double-leaved appearing and compact like your illustrations. Neither do any of the photos in my old tomes such as EXOTIC III show it as a shingler. So I was asking how he was defining it as a "shingler" as fitting that species. I wasn't intending to argue the point, just curious that I must have missed something along the way. 

Thanks Corey-- the taxonomists drive me crazy, but at least back in the 1950's, Scindapsus was well separated from the Pothos genus, which has a kind of expanded node like a leaf, with the true leaf growing from it. (I think taxonomist just like to bug people up because they don't have anything better to do than reclassify things all of the time.) If you really want to become frustrated with this, get into alpine plants, the Penstemon Society, in particular. They will reclassify over a single hair count. :?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Part of the problem with Pothos is that its bloom was not seen until after the 1950s... which evidently was cause for a massive change in taxon.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Patty,

My mistake. I thought you were asking what a shingler was in general. I have some Scindapsus pictus outside starting to shingle up my fence. I will attempt to take a picture for you.

But here is a picture from the internet. This should suffice...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Best I'm going to spit out for Toxic plants tonight... hope you enjoy.

Toxic Plants with Poisonous Frogs


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> Patty,
> 
> My mistake. I thought you were asking what a shingler was in general.


 O.K., now I see the point. Mine were just looser, leaves much farther apart in the house when I grew them way back when., but definitely the same plant. Thanks for your patience with my dumbness.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Ahem...*

For me, "harp" is something one blows--you kids with your techno...

I wonder why I take the time to write these if no one actually acknowledges them; this is the umpteenrth time I have written something, only to have someone come along to reword it or ignore it and restate it :roll: 

As I explained before, what is a toxin to one animal may be meaningless to another. A lot of folivores--not only iguanas or Corucias--are able to tolerate the alkaloids and other noxious compounds in leaves, and many animals can eat fruits that we cannot. But that is a somewhat anthropocentric defintion of "toxic," no? As i said before, rabbits and deer eat poison ivy--it put me in the hospital.

It makes sense that, alas, iguanas and bearded dragons cannot eat Hedera (parenthetical aside: HARRY--you keep herbivores?!? No herbivores--or Nader voters--in my house...) But for me, the only plants i avoid are Oleander and Croton; from what I have seen, even many Euphorbs are tolerated by herps.

But here is a useful note--I have learned that neem oil, even in diluted doses, is toxic to neotropical frogs. It does not seem to bother Asian frogs, but it is an Indian tree.

With most o-t-c plants, I would be more concerned with pesticide residues than any potential toxins. I may be wrong, but I am not familar with any insectivorous herp being affected by ingesting an arthropod that ate a certain plant. I believe that this is is more relevant to kids, cats, birds or any other vertebrate bored and boneheaded enough to put plants in the mouths.

G

New Motto: "Because I'm a nice guy, I use and recommend Dieffenbachia as a cat training aid"


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: Ahem...*



Groundhog said:


> ..I wonder why I take the time to write these if no one actually acknowledges them; this is the umpteenrth time I have written something, only to have someone come along to reword it or ignore it and restate it :roll: ...


I acknowledge your statement.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Our buddies from the south (way south), produce an excellent beer called Negra Modelo. Never seen a Woodchuck.
There was an extended discussion about 'Pothos' on the Aroid-l list and the general consensus was that the common house plant is Epipremnum aureum. The Genus Pothos is very different although it does have a member called Pothos ovatifolia which is also a 'shingler'
I don't think shingler is an accurate scientific term but it is widely used at least in the Aroid community.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Scindapsus*

Present company excepted, Antone :wink: 

Getting back to "shinglers," I can still recommend Monstera seltipecana and Philodendron micans. (If you ain't familar, these are easy to google.)
They both climb, are very pretty and are neotropical.

G


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Nether of these plants seem to shingle for me at all but I suspect that once they find the correct conditions they may.
There was a very long discussion about M siltipecana on the Aroid list and I still do not know the definitive answer on what it is. I did lean one thing. Most of the Aroids that display this habit will never return to it once they develop mature foliage. So, if you get a mature Monstera dubia of Rhaphidophora cutting. Don't look for it to grow like a shingler. This is only an adaptation of a juvenile plant to get higher in the trees.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

harrywitmore said:


> There was an extended discussion about 'Pothos' on the Aroid-l list and the general consensus was that the common house plant is Epipremnum aureum.


Interesting to know b/c in my current herbaceous class this semester it is being taught as Scindapsus aureus. This just goes to show though that even taxonomy is not an exact science. Everyone uses scientific names because common names vary so much, but sometimes it seem that there is as much variation in the genus and species names.
Point and case, my husband has some of the same plants in his classes as I do because they are escaped ornamentals, and we had a "discussion" last night about whether Yucca glauca was of the family Liliaceae (his prof) or agavaceae (my prof.) Or whether shrubby cinquefoil is Dasiphora floribunda or Pentaphyloides (sp) floribunda. So apparently even family names are negotiable. :roll:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Groundhog - if repeating yourself constantly is something that bothers you, this is not the place for you. I've had this discussion numerous times on here, since shortly after the board started, and there is a reason I've started to just right these topics that keep coming up up as articles... instead of having to repeat myself, I just have to post a link, lol.

The problems with plant names is partially why I have not gotten more into plants than I already have... with confusion over current taxonomy of the described species, and the fact that I have many undescribed species as well...


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Harry: On the aroids.org site your plant was ID'ed as Monstera dubia...no?


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Which plant are we speaking of? There was a discussion about M siltipecana actually being Monstera dubia but I don;t think that is correct at all. Let me know which one you are speaking of.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Yep...here

http://www.wschowa.com/abrimaal/araceum ... /dubia.htm


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Well, I'm sticking with siltipecana. Our recent discussion seemed to indicate it was definately not dubia. But, Monstera are notorious for being hard to ID. If you are collecting them. Getting names on much other that deliciosa can be a pain. I have no less than 8 types and I have no idea what most are.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Dendrobait, I'm not really sure I'd listen to the naming given on that site... looking at their photo of Syngonium erythrophyllum I really have to wonder what they are on to think that red form of _S. podophyllum_ is actually _S. erythrophyllum_... this is what the species actually looks like. Lovely plant I wish I had more of...


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