# Are these mites?&Are these springtails macro pics



## DragonSpirit1185

I was looking at the springtails in my viv then I noticed what seemed to be tiny spiders crawling around and when i got a closer looked the first thing that came to mind was mites.
these guys are amber colored and are dark at the head and loose there color as you look down them.
here is some macro pics...the best I could get out of my dad's camera..


























macro pics of the mites I zoomed in on lol, you can also see the springs in question.

















here is a really good one I messed with paint and zoomed in then screen shot it lol. 









if they are mites are the predator mites and do I need to get rid of them.
idk how I got them or where they cam from but they have just showed up 



I'm pretty sure these are springtails(99.99%).....just wanted to post some pics of them and see what if thought others thought they were too.
I have posted another thread about these lil guys but until now I have never had such good pics.
I know they are local and they hitch hiked on some plants from Lowes.
here are some pics of me messing around with paint and zooming in on the macro pics....
























they look white but really they are like a dull silver...metallic gray?lol
gray or silver springtails maybe?


thanks for your help


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## NVfrogger

yes the little tan looking bugs are mites.


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## DragonSpirit1185

NVfrogger said:


> yes the little tan looking bugs are mites.


Are they bad or good lol?
I know some mites are ok and some are predator mites...which aren't good
They just showed up out of no where and they don't seem to be harming the springtails or anything.
Would they be an endagerment to frogs?


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## NVfrogger

Those I believe if my entomology is correct are grain mites they are eating the food you put in your springtails so they will not harm the springtails. I believe the bad mites that harm the springtails are more cream colored. I had some mites in a springtail culture I let the food source run out for about a week or two and then started re feeding and the mites were gone. If your feeding mushrooms, fish flake, or grain products you have a better chance of getting grain mites. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I feed my springs mushrooms and have not seen mites as of yet. I have them on mite paper but many people feed active yeast and have no mite problems.


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## DragonSpirit1185

NVfrogger said:


> Those I believe if my entomology is correct are grain mites they are eating the food you put in your springtails so they will not harm the springtails. I believe the bad mites that harm the springtails are more cream colored. I had some mites in a springtail culture I let the food source run out for about a week or two and then started re feeding and the mites were gone. If your feeding mushrooms, fish flake, or grain products you have a better chance of getting grain mites. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I feed my springs mushrooms and have not seen mites as of yet. I have them on mite paper but many people feed active yeast and have no mite problems.


well these are in my viv...
those springtails hitchhiked on some plants from Lowes and the mites just showed up or maybe they have been there but I just never noticed.
I only put yeast in there to try to feed the springs that are in the viv.
I was using mushroom but I was have a fungal gnat issue so I stopped using mushrooms.

the persimilis aka spider mite looks like it...yet I haven't seen these guys develop any webs


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## NVfrogger

ah ok well they looked real close to grain mites to me I do have mites in one of my vivs that has no inhabitants but iso's and springtails they look very similar to what yours look like and I have my own grown plants in there. Most people will say that you will see mites in your viv's from time to time I have seen mites in all my viv's here and there great frog food, when my frogs see them they eat them right away.


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## DragonSpirit1185

NVfrogger said:


> ah ok well they looked real close to grain mites to me I do have mites in one of my vivs that has no inhabitants but iso's and springtails they look very similar to what yours look like and I have my own grown plants in there. Most people will say that you will see mites in your viv's from time to time I have seen mites in all my viv's here and there great frog food, when my frogs see them they eat them right away.


yeah I'm just hoping they aren't harmful.
As long as they pose no threat they can stay but idk where they really came from. I haven't put any new plants in or anything the only thing I did was put a piece of charcoal with some yeast on it in there.


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## jbherpin

I may be an absolute idiot, but it looked like a tick to me. Did you use wild harvested mosses, etc? The only way things just show up in vivs, is when we introduce them, whether intentional or not.

JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

jbherpin said:


> I may be an absolute idiot, but it looked like a tick to me. Did you use wild harvested mosses, etc? The only way things just show up in vivs, is when we introduce them, whether intentional or not.
> 
> JBear


meh I used live moss in there from PetSmart but it has been gone for a while.
I have had experiences with ticks and they are much harder and darker.
idk where they came from but the moss is long gone and I haven't noticed the new bugs until this past week.

I know the springs were tracked in from Lowes plants


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## jbherpin

Mites or not, if they dominate the microfauna landscape, and the frogs aren't preying on them, I would be concerned. If the frogs are consuming them, and the numbers don't get too high, I would allow them to cycle in and be a contributor to the microfauna. When the mites become prevelant, I would truly consider a tear down.

JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

jbherpin said:


> Mites or not, if they dominate the microfauna landscape, and the frogs aren't preying on them, I would be concerned. If the frogs are consuming them, and the numbers don't get too high, I would allow them to cycle in and be a contributor to the microfauna. When the mites become prevelant, I would truly consider a tear down.
> 
> JBear


what about bombing?
and what all does a tear down entail? from scratch? or just replace the substrate and stuff.

I'm thinking about trying a few bombing things and removing some of those springs so I can culture them. since they are different and whatnot


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## jbherpin

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> what about bombing?
> and what all does a tear down entail? from scratch? or just replace the substrate and stuff.
> 
> I'm thinking about trying a few bombing things and removing some of those springs so I can culture them. since they are different and whatnot


Bombing is indicative of you have a real problem. If that is not the case, and not too much $ was invested, maybe a start from scratch mentality would serve well. Like I said, if the viv has you in the hole, and the mites are running the show, maybe a bombing is in order, but, I would avoid thta if at all possible.

JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

jbherpin said:


> Bombing is indicative of you have a real problem. If that is not the case, and not too much $ was invested, maybe a start from scratch mentality would serve well. Like I said, if the viv has you in the hole, and the mites are running the show, maybe a bombing is in order, but, I would avoid thta if at all possible.
> 
> JBear


why avoid bombing?
A tear down is just gonna ruin it all and I don't have the $ or materials to rebuild


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## james67

they are mites.
they are not spider mites.

they are considered a nuisance.
Co2 bombing will almost certainly not kill them as the gas will not penetrate deep enough into the soil to kill them.

james


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## jbherpin

jbherpin said:


> Bombing is indicative of you have a real problem. If that is not the case, *and not too much $ was invested, maybe a start from scratch mentality would serve well. Like I said, if the viv has you in the hole*, and the mites are running the show, maybe a bombing is in order, but, I would avoid thta if at all possible.
> 
> JBear





DragonSpirit1185 said:


> why avoid bombing?
> A tear down is just gonna ruin it all and *I don't have the $ or materials *to rebuild


This was my point...

JBear


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## jbherpin

I would rather rebuild at a loss than bomb.

JBear


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## alije

Hay, how many legs this bugs have? Mites have 8 legs, insects have 6. In that picture i only see 6 legs. 
(grain mite: ID Stored Wheat Insects) 

Alije


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## jbherpin

alije said:


> Hay, how many legs this bugs have? Mites have 8 legs, insects have 6. In that picture i only see 6 legs.
> (grain mite: ID Stored Wheat Insects)
> 
> Alije


Which is why I said Tick.

JBear


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## james67

hmm brandon goes offline and alije makes their first post....

anyway, the mites tend to hold the front 2 limbs forward (look at other pics online) so at that angle and resolution it would be difficult to detect them.

james


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## jbherpin

james67 said:


> *hmm brandon goes offline and alije makes their first post....*
> anyway, the mites tend to hold the front 2 limbs forward very close to the antennae (look at other pics online) so at that angle and resolution it would be difficult to detect them.
> 
> james


I will hold my breath and see how this plays out...

JBear


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## james67

i didnt draw any connection, just thought it an odd place to start posting.

welcome to the board alije
james


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## jbherpin

james67 said:


> i didnt draw any connection, just thought it an odd place to start posting.
> 
> welcome to the board alije
> james


I thought it clearly a "troll gaze", but will support, it is an odd intial post. Personally, I wouldn't pull too far back, as you may be right.

Jbear


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## DragonSpirit1185

well I will just try bombing and I might even try some mite spray for reptiles and such.

Think that would work JBear?

James I have asked you numerous times to just forget I exist and now you are here once again hijacking and derailing.


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## jbherpin

jbherpin said:


> I would rather rebuild at a loss than bomb.
> 
> JBear


This is my position.

JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

jbherpin said:


> This is my position.
> 
> JBear


well I'm just not gonna tear down my entire viv.

maybe there is a way to starve the mites....if they are mites.

trust me they aren't ticks tho
this is a tick


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## james67

not ticks i assure you. the mite spray wouldnt be a good choice for anything inside a tank. mite spray (even those which say they are safe for use ON reptiles) shouldnt be used on frogs or in their enclosures.

if there were frogs in your tank they would be eating them and keeping the population controlled, but since there arent i fear that they might become so bountiful that when frogs are added the stress could kill the frogs. 

like i mentioned earlier, bombing the tank with Co2 may put a damper on the mites, but it wont kill them all of as they can seek refuge in areas of the substrate where the gasses wont reach

i dont see any possibility of starving the mites. your pretty much stuck with them.

james


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## DragonSpirit1185

well I think they might be spider mites...I'm almost sure of it from the reseach I have done.
there is now web stuff on the underside of some dying ivy leaves.
Looks like a bunch of eggs on there as well. White and black spots.









Insects on Shrubs

















Spider Mites > Bonnie Plants > Pest Identification

Question is.....are they harmful to PDFs or just more food lol


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## NVfrogger

They will not hurt PDF as the feed off the plants but they could stress the PDF's in mass amounts however they are good food for PDF's mine eat them all the time.


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## DragonSpirit1185

NVfrogger said:


> They will not hurt PDF as the feed off the plants but they could stress the PDF's in mass amounts however they are good food for PDF's mine eat them all the time.


shew thank god I don't have to bomb or tear down 
There aren't many in there at all and I searched the entire viv for traces and they was only on that ivy and I pulled it.
Thanks for the info 

is there any safe way to treat my plants so they stay away from them?
I know cannabis growers have spider mite issues a lot lol.
When i was researching I saw a lot of it.


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## Boondoggle

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> is there any safe way to treat my plants so they stay away from them?


Anytime I add a new plant, I strip all dirt from it, wash it in the sink, soak it in a weak bleach solution, rinse until the smell is gone, then dry well. Doing that in the future will greatly reduce your chances of getting unwanted critters. I've built many vivs and so far the only hitch-hikers that have ever made it through all that were brom scale, and in one case, slugs.


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## DragonSpirit1185

Boondoggle said:


> Anytime I add a new plant, I strip all dirt from it, wash it in the sink, soak it in a weak bleach solution, rinse until the smell is gone, then dry well. Doing that in the future will greatly reduce your chances of getting unwanted critters. I've built many vivs and so far the only hitch-hikers that have ever made it through all that were brom scale, and in one case, slugs.


yeah I treated the plants. most didn't have dirt and were cuttings. 10% bleach solution. rinsed well. kinda gave em a shake like you would a ketchup bottle then laid them out on paper towels.
I have no clue where those mites came from unless they were here in the house cause they just appeared within the last week.
So far I have only seen 8 at the most and have killed each one and the ivy was the only place I found the webs.
I don't think they have had time to populate enough.
I think I got rid of their nesting area before it got really bad and I stand there and squish as many as I can see so it doesn't get out of control before I get the frogs.

Oddly enough those springs haven't populated that much.


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## NVfrogger

I see mites from time to time in my vivs low populations. I have watched the frogs and when they see the mites they eat them quickly so if there are only a few they frogs will have them eaten fairly quickly. You will always have the possibility of seeing a few mites in your vivs as mites are everywhere.


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## DragonSpirit1185

NVfrogger said:


> I see mites from time to time in my vivs low populations. I have watched the frogs and when they see the mites they eat them quickly so if there are only a few they frogs will have them eaten fairly quickly. You will always have the possibility of seeing a few mites in your vivs as mites are everywhere.


yeah but I don't have frogs yet 
idk when I will get any...these will be my first PDFs and I wanna take it slow and make sure I get culturing down 
Gotta work on FF even when I decide I'm ready then I will put the money back and once the FF culturing is mastered then I will get my frogs lol it could be next spring 

plus I want my viv to grow in some.
this one guy waited for his tank to grow in....5 months I think and look how great it looks 








source: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/76457-frogs-last.html#post676149

plus I might get a couple more plants and I don't want to be planting and have frogs in there


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## NVfrogger

You will be ok.


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## james67

NVfrogger said:


> They will not hurt PDF as the feed off the plants but they could stress the PDF's in mass amounts however they are good food for PDF's mine eat them all the time.


i have seen first hand frogs die of stress related to microfauna. stating that it will be fine isnt entirely accurate. they might be ok, but they might not.

i doubt seriously that what you have are spider mites. its more likely that the web like things that your seeing are mycelium and completely unrelated to the mites.

james


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## DragonSpirit1185

james67 said:


> i have seen first hand frogs die of stress related to microfauna. stating that it will be fine isnt entirely accurate. they might be ok, but they might not.
> 
> i doubt seriously that what you have are spider mites. its more likely that the web like things that your seeing are mycelium and completely unrelated to the mites.
> 
> james


really um cause the pics match....
the web wasn't there until the mites show up.
I know what research has show me.
Yeah it is just coincidence that these mites and webs appear at the same time. Highly unlikely and the webs match and so do the white and black spots in the web. Imagine someone taking specks of EcoEarth and tossing them into a spider web....that's what it looked like and the white spot's I'm guessing are the eggs.


mycelium is fungus and trust me I can tell between web and fungus.
here are some examples of what you claim it is.

























It looks nothing like this....it actually looks like a web and there is tiny black dots some places and white on others.
The research pictures I found match.....these don't.

If these aren't what you are referring to then please provide me with a pic of what you mean.


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## NathalieB

I wouldn't worry too much about mites in the tanks unless you actually see them harming your plants or they get really out of control.

Some people do say mites are bad for frogs and stress them out. I put them in with the spoonful, especially with my pumilio offspring, they just love them.

In my experience you do have to make sure your frogs have the opportunity to "rinse" the mites off with water.
When I feed the mites the frogs will start feeding on them immediately and after a while they are usually covered with mites themselves. I can see it bothers them because they are scratching and twisting, trying to get them off. When it really bugs them too much they go to the water, submerge themselves and most of the mites will be gone. then they just return to the feeding-spot. I can imagine it would stress the hell out of them if they don't have a body of water to get rid of the mites.

this water doesn't have to be a pond or anything. big bromelia's with a larger volume of water are good enough. in the tanks that don't have any of those and don't have a pond area I just put a little cup with water whenever I feed the mites.

I think you will see your mite-"problem" dissapear as soon as you will have frogs in there


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## DragonSpirit1185

NathalieB said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about mites in the tanks unless you actually see them harming your plants or they get really out of control.
> 
> Some people do say mites are bad for frogs and stress them out. I put them in with the spoonful, especially with my pumilio offspring, they just love them.
> 
> In my experience you do have to make sure your frogs have the opportunity to "rinse" the mites off with water.
> When I feed the mites the frogs will start feeding on them immediately and after a while they are usually covered with mites themselves. I can see it bothers them because they are scratching and twisting, trying to get them off. When it really bugs them too much they go to the water, submerge themselves and most of the mites will be gone. then they just return to the feeding-spot. I can imagine it would stress the hell out of them if they don't have a body of water to get rid of the mites.
> 
> this water doesn't have to be a pond or anything. big bromelia's with a larger volume of water are good enough. in the tanks that don't have any of those and don't have a pond area I just put a little cup with water whenever I feed the mites.
> 
> I think you will see your mite-"problem" dissapear as soon as you will have frogs in there


Yeah I have 3 broms in my viv. They are pretty big for the thumbnails I will be getting.
You can click the link in my signature below and check out the viv.
It's nothing compared to yours tho 
Thanks for the info


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## NVfrogger

Some spider mites do spin webs many of the spider mites that feed off the sap of plants found in the garden form webs. At low populations in a viv they should not stress frogs and will be food for the PDF's.





james67 said:


> i have seen first hand frogs die of stress related to microfauna. stating that it will be fine isnt entirely accurate. they might be ok, but they might not.
> 
> i doubt seriously that what you have are spider mites. its more likely that the web like things that your seeing are mycelium and completely unrelated to the mites.
> 
> james


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## Brotherly Monkey

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> mycelium is fungus and trust me I can tell between web and fungus.


you'd be surprised. I've seen people confuse the two on numerous occasions. But if they are in your spring cultures, I doubt they are spider mites, unless you have plants in there


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## Ed

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> If these aren't what you are referring to then please provide me with a pic of what you mean.


If you had scrolled down the google image search further you would have found a number of mycelial growths that look exactly like webs in your enclosure. see Mushroom Ecology 

Spider mites require live plant materials on which to feed and if not provided will either starve or leave. Dying leaves that are not attached to the plant are a poor source of food for spider mites.. They are extremely unlikely to be in the springtail cultures... Inside humid enclosures of any kind, you can see mycelia growths that readily imitate webs as there isn't the same kinds of pressures on them to develop into thicker structures. 

Detrivore mites are extremely common and typically are introduced with substrates or plant that have not been adequately cleaned. It doesn't tale a lot of soil or substrate to add them to something. In a planted enclosure they are inevitable. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185

Ed said:


> If you had scrolled down the google image search further you would have found a number of mycelial growths that look exactly like webs in your enclosure. see Mushroom Ecology
> 
> Spider mites require live plant materials on which to feed and if not provided will either starve or leave. Dying leaves that are not attached to the plant are a poor source of food for spider mites.. They are extremely unlikely to be in the springtail cultures... Inside humid enclosures of any kind, you can see mycelia growths that readily imitate webs as there isn't the same kinds of pressures on them to develop into thicker structures.
> 
> Detrivore mites are extremely common and typically are introduced with substrates or plant that have not been adequately cleaned. It doesn't tale a lot of soil or substrate to add them to something. In a planted enclosure they are inevitable.
> 
> Ed


the Ivy wasn't always dead and the web does't look like the fungus....it looks like actual spider or spider mite web.
The ivy was alive about a week or so ago(maybe longer) and here recently I noticed the spider mites and just the other day I went looking around and found the ivy dead with the webs on it.
I don't see the ivy often cause I had it tucked behind other plants.
I can see a difference in mycelia and what looks like web 
Trust me it was web.
Here is a pic of a leaf on my aglaonema and it appears to have mycelia yet what I saw on the ivy looked nothing like it and it is incomparable.









What was on the ivy looks absolutely like nothing you and James have shown...it looked like actual spider web.

What i saw on the ivy looked exactly like this:


DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Spider Mites > Bonnie Plants > Pest Identification


you can see the white spots I mentioned and from the old mister(wich was too powerful) I used it would loosen up the EcoEarth and that's that's where I think the black/brown spots came from.

I have since used a hand sprayer since that sprayer was removing EcoEarth fragments.
This is also why my my viv stayed a bit too moist as mentioned in the peperomia thread cause it was high pressure and not a fine mist, i was kinda drenching instead of misting. It is a Round Up spray canister.

btw the only plants I didn't treat brought in the springtails but there was never any mites and for the other plants I did a 10% bleach solution.
The plants that brought the springtails in have been around for a long while and I think I would have seen the mites by now.
The plants I did the bleach solution with came from fieldnstream and itsott but I highly doubt the mites came from them and the mites would have appeared sooner as well cause it has been since Oct 15 since I out them in there.
The Substrate is ABG that I bought off fieldnstream. I am sure the mites didn't come from there.
The mites just showed up not to long ago and I have no idea where they came from.


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## james67

the structure in that pic doesnt look like webs to me....

factiod:
mycelium is what comprises the main structure of one of the most widespread lifeforms on the planet, fungi, of which there are roughly 75,000 species. 

also, ever consider that the bugs came from elsewhere? they didnt HAVE to hitch a ride on a plant. they could have been brought in on anything, or even just wandered in. i promise you that roaches were never brought in to my tanks, but living in the south, ive had to kill off roaches in virtually every tank i have.

james


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## DragonSpirit1185

Brotherly Monkey said:


> you'd be surprised. I've seen people confuse the two on numerous occasions. But if they are in your spring cultures, I doubt they are spider mites, unless you have plants in there


they are in my viv
well was I removed the webs and what looked to be like eggs.
I stood there forever looking for some and squished everyone I could see and I haven't seen any others yet.


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## jbherpin

james67 said:


> the structure in that pic doesnt look like webs to me....
> 
> factiod:
> mycelium is what comprises the main structure of one of the most widespread lifeforms on the planet, fungi, of which there are roughly 75,000 species.
> 
> also, ever consider that the bugs came from elsewhere? they didnt HAVE to hitch a ride on a plant. they could have been brought in on anything, or even just wandered in. i promise you that roaches were never brought in to my tanks, but living in the south, ive had to kill off roaches in virtually every tank i have.
> 
> james



James you made a great point. I am by no means a biology major(never went to college in fact...), so I appreciate the knowledge nugget. Also, it seems to me, anytime I had an unwanted visitor to my viv(s) it was due to a mistake I made. Either I was hasty in cleaning/preparing a plant/wood ornament/etc., or I left the viv uninhabited on the floor and allowed things to creep in by accident(my theory at least for that particular viv). I think in closing, you should except the corrections as help rather than feel insulted. People really do come here to help others, and not solely to learn. I am a bit green, and still learn quite a bit, but I have always appreciated opinions and help, instead of feeling threatened or insulted. That is key to moving forward in the hobby. All my best to you!


JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

james67 said:


> the structure in that pic doesnt look like webs to me....
> 
> factiod:
> mycelium is what comprises the main structure of one of the most widespread lifeforms on the planet, fungi, of which there are roughly 75,000 species.
> 
> also, ever consider that the bugs came from elsewhere? they didnt HAVE to hitch a ride on a plant. they could have been brought in on anything, or even just wandered in. i promise you that roaches were never brought in to my tanks, but living in the south, ive had to kill off roaches in virtually every tank i have.
> 
> james


I have already said that they may have come from inside the house or something.
i was replying to Ed's suggestion that they may have came from untreated plants.




> the structure in that pic doesnt look like webs to me....[/img]
> 
> on these here? cause they most certainly do look like webs!
> 
> 
> DragonSpirit1185 said:
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Spider Mites > Bonnie Plants > Pest Identification
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or if you meant on the plant leaf pic I showed then yes I think that might be mycelia but what I saw on the ivy was *NOT* mycelia and looked nothing like any pics of mycelia I have seen and trust me the most common pics are available so I think I would have seen a resemblance by now.
> What I showed that was on the anglaonema looks nothing like what was ont he ivy and looks exactly like the spider mite pics.
> 
> btw I found a couple mites walking around in the web
> 
> Any further discussion on mycelia or mycelium will be considered derailment/hijacking and will be reported. I have ruled it out.
> 
> James you and Ed come around and bicker with me about things on my threads and bicker with me on other people's threads and I'm tired of it.
> This is why I ask you two(along with Pumilo and B-NICE) to stay off my threads.
> You keep derailing it.
> I don't want any more hijacking on my thread please.
> Cause if it doesn't pertain to the mites then it is hijacking.
Click to expand...


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## Brotherly Monkey

double.................


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## DragonSpirit1185

jbherpin said:


> James you made a great point. I am by no means a biology major(never went to college in fact...), so I appreciate the knowledge nugget. Also, it seems to me, anytime I had an unwanted visitor to my viv(s) it was due to a mistake I made. Either I was hasty in cleaning/preparing a plant/wood ornament/etc., or I left the viv uninhabited on the floor and allowed things to creep in by accident(my theory at least for that particular viv). I think in closing, you should except the corrections as help rather than feel insulted. People really do come here to help others, and not solely to learn. I am a bit green, and still learn quite a bit, but I have always appreciated opinions and help, instead of feeling threatened or insulted. That is key to moving forward in the hobby. All my best to you!
> 
> 
> JBear



Hey JBear I have completely figured it all out yet he wants to come aroud pushing issues and not reading things fully.

Idk where they came from but the time of them showing up doesn't match with any plants going in.
Plus i got the plants from trusted members here on DB.
The other plants like I said that tracked in the springs were put in there a while ago when the viv was first built back in August and those plants are't even around anymore and the mites would have shown up by now.

I did do some yard work and raked some leaves and other stuff and I came in cause it was time to mist my viv, maybe they came in that way...idk.

I do not feel insulted. I am irritated cause they think I don't know what I saw JBear and I know what I saw and it was a web.
There was even a couple spider mites walking around in the said web.

The ivy had just died and there was a bit of web on the plant next to it like they was moving over.

It's not that I am not listening or anything but in this case they are wrong.
It happens even to the smartest people in the world.

Please do not take this subject matter any further and please stay on topic.

Thanks


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> they are in my viv
> well was I removed the webs and what looked to be like eggs.
> I stood there forever looking for some and squished everyone I could see and I haven't seen any others yet.



If I remember correctly, I doubt you would be able to see spider mite eggs, unaided

OurVeggieGarden > Garden Care > Insects > Spider Mites

also, the mites in your picture look like the type I get in my fly cultures, which are general grain mites (which tend to be larger than spider mites)


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## DragonSpirit1185

Brotherly Monkey said:


> If I remember correctly, I doubt you would be able to see spider mite eggs, unaided
> 
> OurVeggieGarden > Garden Care > Insects > Spider Mites
> 
> also, the mites in your picture look like the type I get in my fly cultures, which are general grain mites (which tend to be larger than spider mites


maybe not but I said I believed them to be eggs and if you look at the pics of the web I found there is the same white spots I mentioned and even specks of dirt.

these guys were really tiny.....I had to put the camera on macro and stick the lens all the way up to them and still yet I had to blow up the macro pics just to get a better look. Tehy were about half the size of the ball in a ball point pen maybe a bit larger but not much more.

and for further clarification about the mycelia suggestion this is a better pic of what I saw minus all the spider mites except 2 lol










btw I'm guessing since the grain mites are in your culture they are frog safe, right?
I don't wanna freak out when I start FF culturing if see them 

and what's up with this post haha



Brotherly Monkey said:


> double.................


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## Ed

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I have already said that they may have come from inside the house or something.
> i was replying to Ed's suggestion that they may have came from untreated plants.


Actually, I didn't say they came from untreated plants.. I said they can come from inadequately cleaned plants. Unless you rip off every stem where it attaches to the leaf, scale or node of the plant, you cannot ensure that your cleaning method was effective. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> or if you meant on the plant leaf pic I showed then yes I think that might be mycelia but what I saw on the ivy was *NOT* mycelia and looked nothing like any pics of mycelia I have seen and trust me the most common pics are available so I think I would have seen a resemblance by now.


I posted a link to a mycelia growth that looks just like spider web and pointed out that under conditions of low air movement and high humidity, that mycelia can easily look like a web. The problem with the statement of "common pictures" is that given all of the variations of mycelia growth, you could easily be misidentifying it. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> btw I found a couple mites walking around in the web


Which actually doesn't mean anything.. while spider mites do walk around on webs, detrivore and mushroom mites walk around on mycelia. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185

Well it has been a bit and I have not seen anymore spider mites since the removal of the ivy they was feeding off of and hunted a few down and killed them.

Hopefully no more show back up


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## Brotherly Monkey

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> and what's up with this post haha


double post

The grain mites should be fine. In fact, I think they are rather ubiquitous in fly cultures

But spider mites are tiny. When I had them in my plant collection I could barely see them and only noticed the webs


PS I have seen various molds and fungus that have looked exactly like mite webs. Hence my earlier post about easy confusion


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## DragonSpirit1185

Brotherly Monkey said:


> double post
> 
> The grain mites should be fine. In fact, I think they are rather ubiquitous in fly cultures
> 
> But spider mites are tiny. When I had them in my plant collection I could barely see them and only noticed the webs
> 
> 
> PS I have seen various molds and fungus that have looked exactly like mite webs. Hence my earlier post about easy confusion


and these spider mites where tiny as well.
I did all the research necessary to rule out grain mites and fungus.


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## jbherpin

Can we just have a mod bring the final word of, "we'll never agree", and close this one out? In the end, if it were spider mites, questions were answered, if it were grain, etc mites... again questions have been answered...

JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

jbherpin said:


> Can we just have a mod bring the final word of, "we'll never agree", and close this one out? In the end, if it were spider mites, questions were answered, if it were grain, etc mites... again questions have been answered...
> 
> JBear


Well JBear it's like you say hey I saw a wolf in the woods and I saw are you sure it wasn't a bobcat. Yeah Brandon I'm sure it was a wolf.
Simple as that cause I can't tell you what you saw or suggest what you saw 

We don't need no mod to come in and close it cause until the mites are gone for sure then I might need to ask some questions.

Anyway no one talked about the springs I am pretty sure they are springs but I have had my doubts tho.
They are a bit metallic and whatnot and look like they have an exo skeleton with the naked eye.

What do you think JBear?


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## JimO

I found mites that looked identical to your original photos in my spring cultures when I fed them fresh mushrooms. I assumed their eggs were attached to the mushrooms. As far as the frogs go, I actually feed them to my obligates and have never seen any mites at all in my vivs.

I'm surprised that you are so upset with James and Ed. Your thread title is asking a question. If you did research and answered it yourself, then why ask it in the first place. People disagree all the time with species ID and there are so many species of mites that nobody can ID them from a few photos. If you don't want opinions from certain people, then perhaps you should ask your question in a PM to those you want an answer from.


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## DragonSpirit1185

JimO said:


> I found mites that looked identical to your original photos in my spring cultures when I fed them fresh mushrooms. I assumed their eggs were attached to the mushrooms. As far as the frogs go, I actually feed them to my obligates and have never seen any mites at all in my vivs.
> 
> I'm surprised that you are so upset with James and Ed. Your thread title is asking a question. If you did research and answered it yourself, then why ask it in the first place. People disagree all the time with species ID and there are so many species of mites that nobody can ID them from a few photos. If you don't want opinions from certain people, then perhaps you should ask your question in a PM to those you want an answer from.


Um I found the research after the thread was posted.
I said I know it isn't fungus and they wouldn't have it.
They were trying to force there opinion on it being fungus yet I know what I saw and it was webs.
They were the ones not listening to me. Trying to tell me what I saw when I know what I saw lol.

Either way spider mites or grain mites aren't a threat.

Now please drop it.


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## james67

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Either way spider mites or grain mites aren't a threat.


this is a blanket statement that isnt necessarily true. large populations of ANY microfauna can and will stress frogs to death. i have witnessed it first hand. 

just something to consider.

james


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## Pumilo

True enough, James. There are reports of it all over the board.


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## DragonSpirit1185

james67 said:


> this is a blanket statement that isnt necessarily true. large populations of ANY microfauna can and will stress frogs to death. i have witnessed it first hand.
> 
> just something to consider.
> 
> james


I meant a threat as for their well being, as in the mites attacking or feeding on the frogs.
I know about the dangerous of stress and there isn't even enough springs in there for the frogs even to get stressed and I haven't seen anymore mites.
I meant as in they won't feed off the frogs like predator mites.

Live food running around in an animals enclosure will stress them out this applies to a lot of herps and other things.

Yes I knew that, you are just nitpicking.


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## Pumilo

I prefer to think of it as correcting misinformation. It's not about you. It's about other people reading the thread.


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## james67

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I meant a threat as for their well being, as in the mites attacking or feeding on the frogs.


death of an animal is death regardless of cause. its important to remember that your threads are public and available for others who may be having a similar issue. your satisfaction related to the question being answered is secondary to the plethora of other users who may find this thread in an attempt to seek answers to their questions as well.




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I know about the dangerous of stress and there isn't even enough springs in there for the frogs even to get stressed and I haven't seen anymore mites.


its very easy to stress frogs to death with microfauna. and without having kept dart frogs, i cant see an accurate way to determine what is or isnt enough (in terms of population size and density) to cause fatal levels of stress. 




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> you are just nitpicking.


im stating an important consideration that could potentially help other members who stumble on this thread and read


> Either way spider mites or grain mites aren't a threat.


. which may or may not be the case. in fact there was a recent thread where a new hobbyist introduced 3 otherwise healthy frogs to a vivarium with too much microfauna and they died within 24 hours. this is important information, whether or not you choose to see it that way is unrelated to the importance of the dissemination of correct and useful info.


james


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## james67

Pumilo said:


> I prefer to think of it as correcting misinformation. It's not about you. It's about other people reading the thread.


great minds.....


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## DragonSpirit1185

Pumilo said:


> I prefer to think of it as correcting misinformation. It's not about you. It's about other people reading the thread.


Once again I meant as in a threat as in harming the frogs.
Yet they are a problem if there is a bunch of them.

Trust me not all the posts you all make are perfect either lol.

Now just drop it


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## Pumilo

james67 said:


> great minds.....


Ahh, but you took the time to explain it with style and grace. I am often impressed with your patience.


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## jbherpin

jbherpin said:


> Can we just have a mod bring the final word of, "we'll never agree", and close this one out? In the end, if it were spider mites, questions were answered, if it were grain, etc mites... again questions have been answered...
> 
> JBear


Dragon. I like you, and I know you are simply frustrated beyond belief. But at this point, you are forcing this battle. Really. Let it go. If another flareup occurs, post pics, and ask again. I just think you are commiting forum suicide the more you push on this.

JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

jbherpin said:


> Dragon. I like you, and I know you are simply frustrated beyond belief. But at this point, you are forcing this battle. Really. Let it go. If another flareup occurs, post pics, and ask again. I just think you are commiting forum suicide the more you push on this.
> 
> JBear


um I dropped the mite subject and directed it to the springtails.
Trying to change topic.
I'm not forcing anything lol. I didn't ask them to come around keeping up the convo about fungus and mites.

I simply posted an update saying they are gone and I hope they don't show back up.

I'm not pushing the subjects lol they are.


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## jbherpin

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> um I dropped the mite subject and directed it to the springtails.
> Trying to change topic.
> I'm not forcing anything lol. I didn't ask them to come around keeping up the convo about fungus and mites.
> 
> I simply posted an update saying they are gone and I hope they don't show back up.
> 
> I'm not pushing the subjects lol they are.


I was honestly looking to help you avoid the "targeting". To move on, and create a new thread. If you are asking about isos in that thread and you are bashed/targeted, you will know it is in fact personal. 

I think it is pretty clear Dragon's posts were picked apart, and he was lampooned in a way. I don't think it is fair. So what, he held an opinion...? 

JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

jbherpin said:


> I was honestly looking to help you avoid the "targeting". To move on, and create a new thread. If you are asking about isos in that thread and you are bashed/targeted, you will know it is in fact personal.
> 
> I think it is pretty clear Dragon's posts were picked apart, and he was lampooned in a way. I don't think it is fair. So what, he held an opinion...?
> 
> JBear


I'm not even trying to make myself a target I really don't have too cause that's all I am to them.
I's like they are the little old man from the gorge of eternal peril/scene 24 and they are looking for any little mistake to toss me into the gorge.
I have noticed that I am not being 100% and I am giving them room to pick things apart. I shall try not to....but I can't be perfect.
I can't be perfect and shouldn't expect to be perfect lol.

As I have said before thanks for not being oblivious to what they do.
There may be hope for compassion and empathy on Dendroboard.
We are the seeds and hopefully the compassion and empathy will spread.
We are the PDF baby boomers and when we get to their status(senior member) we know we will handle things a lot better.
Ya know I have always wondered how people can be so rude and abrasive yet they are surrounded by such beautiful frogs and vivariums and they look like they are doing pretty well financially and are content with their lives yet why are they so rude, grumpy, and bitter. What is the point of vendettas and just simply trying to annoy me.
It baffles me.
If this is what a PDF elite is or having all the answers and experience then I don't want it. I will keep my honor, dignity and integrity thank you very much 
People like them push others away from the hobby.
Frogging should be a happy go lucky experience not a badgering dramafest lulz


Take care JBear


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## james67

please review the thread and recognize that the only posts not relating to the topic are your comments directed towards the "they". (who, unlike yourself have remained on topic and made no comments relating to the poster, but rather to the post and its content)

james


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## jbherpin

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'm not even trying to make myself a target I really don't have too cause that's all I am to them.
> I's like they are the little old man from the gorge of eternal peril/scene 24 and they are looking for any little mistake to toss me into the gorge.
> I have noticed that I am not being 100% and I am giving them room to pick things apart. I shall try not to....but I can't be perfect.
> I can't be perfect and shouldn't expect to be perfect lol.
> 
> As I have said before thanks for not being oblivious to what they do.
> There may be hope for compassion and empathy on Dendroboard.
> We are the seeds and hopefully the compassion and empathy will spread.
> We are the PDF baby boomers and when we get to their status(senior member) we know we will handle things a lot better.
> Ya know I have always wondered how people can be so rude and abrasive yet they are surrounded by such beautiful frogs and vivariums and they look like they are doing pretty well financially and are content with their lives yet why are they so rude, grumpy, and bitter. What is the point of vendettas and just simply trying to annoy me.
> It baffles me.
> If this is what a PDF elite is or having all the answers and experience then I don't want it. I will keep my honor, dignity and integrity thank you very much
> People like them push others away from the hobby.
> Frogging should be a happy go lucky experience not a badgering dramafest lulz
> 
> 
> *Take care JBear*


Listen, I appreciate that, but I am out.

Best to you.

JBear


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## DragonSpirit1185

james67 said:


> please review the thread and recognize that the only posts not relating to the topic are your comments directed towards the "they". (who, unlike yourself have remained on topic and made no comments relating to the poster, but rather to the post and its content)
> 
> james


I am not perfect. Get over it.
Do you go around targeting others that make mistakes as well, nah it tends to be me more than others and trust me there is plenty of mistakes on here to correct.
Everyone should know that too much microfauna can lead to stressing the frogs before they even start culturing or feeding.
Then correct me and then move on and not have a convo with people on my thread and be boastful about the corrections...this applies to Doug as well cause he is here simply instigating especially since I wasn't even addressing him lol.
Point was made and correction was made no further comments were needed besides by the wo people in the convo which was me and you..
Anyway like I said everyone should know about too much fauna stressing out the frogs before you culture or feeding, especially if they do their research correctly.

There are lots of gaps and things left out in care sheets and the how to threads.
I don't see this mentioned much and I guess you are right that it needed to be mentioned.


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## Pumilo

My comment was polite and specifically addressing the statement that mites cannot be a threat. 


DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Either way spider mites or grain mites aren't a threat.


It is a public forum and as such I do my best correct misinformation so that others do not stumble over it.


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## DragonSpirit1185

Pumilo said:


> My comment was polite and specifically addressing the statement that mites cannot be a threat.
> 
> It is a public forum and as such I do my best correct misinformation so that others do not stumble over it.


Someone has already addressed it. You are here just instigating.
I think a simple like would have sufficed but noooo you had to reply after that.

I have a bad lumbar sprain and I am doped up on pain pills and I can't sleep. Lmao I'm bound to make mistakes.
James corrected me and there was no need for you to chime in just like I was just talking yet you chimed in again. 

Anyway I think some of you have my "Find all posts by DragonSpirit1185" link book marked cause I don't see you correcting very many but as soon as I slip up bam it's always the same 3 people and if it is just one the others aren't far behind liking and thanking your post lol..
Can you say habitual, obsession, and badgering?
I usually only see Ed going around and correcting others.

Let me make this plain as day:
The context I put it in and how I know I meant it was me saying that I know they aren't a physical threat.
There is a difference between physical threat and psychological threat.
Physical:
phys·i·cal/ˈfizikəl/
Adjective:	
Of or relating to the body as opposed to the mind.

High microfauna populations would make them feel stressed that would be psycological.

Anyway the nitpicking correction has been made let's all move along now.
If you keep replying no one will see the correction haha




> Originally Posted by *DragonSpirit1185*
> Um I found the research after the thread was posted.
> I said I know it isn't fungus and they wouldn't have it.
> They were trying to force there opinion on it being fungus yet I know what I saw and it was webs.
> They were the ones not listening to me. Trying to tell me what I saw when I know what I saw lol.
> 
> Either way spider mites or grain mites aren't a threat.
> 
> Now please drop it.
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *james67*
> this is a blanket statement that isnt necessarily true. large populations of ANY microfauna can and will stress frogs to death. i have witnessed it first hand.
> 
> just something to consider.
> 
> james




Ladies and gents.....please don't think that just because the mites do not pose a physical threat that the frogs aren't in danger.
Too many mites or any microfauna can be a psychological threat and can cause them stress and it will kill them.
I knew this before making the statement since I have had herps all my life so I meant they wasn't a physical threat.
Plus I have already stated that I have seen no more mites and there wasn't many seen at all so there was no need to mention a psychological threat.
You did however need to know that too many around them as James and I said can can kill them.


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## Ghost vivs

I just don't get it...

You..

Ask questions...

Argue about most answers you are given...

Give out bad info...

Then argue about how you are correct ...

Find out your wrong ...

Give excuses why you were wrong...

Family issue, sick, pain meds...

Everyone that corrects you is bashing you...

Has to have the last word, but everyone else needs to drop it...

Thinks highly respected people in this hobby are big meanies and out to get you...

Thinks your going to make the hobby better when your an "old-timer"...

I don't know, maybe its just me, but first I think you have to actual be in this hobby to make it better. Because most of what you have said so far has potential to harm peoples hobby.


But to your point about psychological stress, yes stress is psychological but its the physical factor(s) that causes stress. Like the mites or springs crawling all over them not just the frog looking at them and getting stressed to death...


A bewildered Casper


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## sports_doc

james67 said:


> i have seen first hand frogs die of stress related to microfauna. stating that it will be fine isnt entirely accurate. they might be ok, but they might not.
> 
> i doubt seriously that what you have are spider mites. its more likely that the web like things that your seeing are mycelium and completely unrelated to the mites.
> 
> james


Honestly, but I do not think this it true.

A single handful of leaf litter in CR/ Panama/ Peru teams with microfauna at a density to rival your best springtail culture boxes.

If there was some anecdotal case of someones frog dieing after introduction to a tank, and there is a lot of microfauna, you can not make a cause and effect assumption. What a new arrival has never died without microfauna?? 

Never have I suspected a frog to have been 'overwhelmed' by mites/isopods/springs etc. Never.

NOW, the rest of this BS back and forth pissing match between members who clearly dont like each other has to stop. The entire forum is full of the same handful of members who seem to enjoy picking/ nitpicking/ commenting to the contrary and outright targeting each other.


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## markpulawski

Shawn James was referring to a St Lamasi I gave him a couple of years ago, it went into a tank heavily laden with springs, seemed to stress, whither quickly and then die. He asked if I thought it could be related to the numerous springs in the enclosure and I thought certainly it could...a bunch of bugs crawling on a baby frog could easily stress it to a point of no return within a couple of days.
There likely were other factors involved as well but that was not known. A healthy active hunting froglet should be able to elude microfauna but confined to a tank tons of mites may have the same effect, I have seen mite outbreaks that look like the plagues of Egypt.


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## sports_doc

James wasnt the only one to make this incorrect assertion Mark....no offense to him. 

I just click quoted that post to reply to the thread. I could have clicked on many more/ or strung them all together like so many people seem to enjoy doing here....lol


1. The frog in question was young. Young frogs die sometimes no?
2. The frog in question was shipped. Frogs die after shipping stress no?
3. The frog in question was just put in a new enclosure....new temps...new humidity....new keeper.....tossed/photographed/sprayed/force fed and .... well sure, it had to share it's space with some bugs too....

So, the variables involved are so many that the mites/ springs ect were likely a coincidence....not a cause. Guilty by association with a dead frog I say ;-)

Anyway, point is.....folks cant just make blanket statements about good or bad....IMO....

And.....since its never happened to me....I see it as untrue in my little utopia , my bug filled utopia.....

Best,


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## markpulawski

Also had to do with losing a St Lamasi, heightened effect for the speices/morph of frog. A lot of this goes back to a guy that once said you can't ID frogs from a picture , bugs though not as variable can also be quite difficult to ID.


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## Ed

markpulawski said:


> Also had to do with losing a St Lamasi, heightened effect for the speices/morph of frog. A lot of this goes back to a guy that once said you can't ID frogs from a picture , bugs though not as variable can also be quite difficult to ID.


A good understanding of how stress impacts an animal points towards the possibility of it occuring... There is good data out there that indicates that depending on the stress (repeated, one time, chronic) there are differences in how the animal can respond to it. Severe stress can not only increase corticosteroid levels and suppress the immune response, suppress reproductive output, but cause death. Stressors that are relatively the same day to day typically result in habituation to those stressors but stressors that can vary widely in intensity can cause death (see Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (Amazon.com: Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (9781402004032): Clifford Warwick, F.L. Frye, J.B. Murphy: Books) for the full explination). In the case mentioned above we have a froglet which was just shipped. Depending on the time out of water, we could have stress from metamorphosis(which already suppresses immune function) added to stress from shipping, stress from being placed into a new enclosure without any of the cues that allow for territorial recognition (visual, olfactory), and stress from microfaunal interactions. It isn't possible to decouple one stress from these situations and claim it couldn't have been x it must have been y as all of the stressors create a synergistic impact on the animal. It is also incorrect to attempt to equate this to a frog in the wild as the impacts are an apple and orange comparision (as an example, a frog in the wild while having stresses on it, those tend to be the same day to day, and are probably not causing the same increase of corticosteroids as the newly shipped froglet). 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## markpulawski

Actually I gave him some tads so it was not a shipped froglet but good points all Ed, so many variables not to mention the viability of a froglet that nature may have selected to eliminate.


----------



## james67

that was one of the instances i was referring to mark. thanks. 

shawn, im not singling out a member (i replied to the thread and am subscribed, i check back and respond like i do with any other thread) in fact ive been very careful to word my responses in a delicate way with this particular user so as not to offend him.

also, when talking about microfauna related stress being a non-life threatening issue i said:


james67 said:


> which may or may not be the case.


my response was not an attack in any way, rather it was in reference to my own personal observations. i would ask you if, then you would place a frog into the booming culture that has less microfauna than the leaf litter? of course not. animals in small enclosed spaces react differently than those in the wild, to many stressors, like microfauna or temperature variation. both of which are deadly at different ranges in captivity(IME).

james


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## JimO

I'm just relating this for information purposes.

I gave two G&B auratus froglets to a friend and after about a week in their viv, my friend decided to feed them some springs. When he put the springs in the viv, quite a few fell on one of the froglets. The froglet went crazy, flopped around, had what looked like a seizure and died, all within 15 minutes. I was on the phone with my friend as it was happening because he called for my help as soon as it starting going mad. Perhaps it's rare or perhaps that particular frog had issues that caused it to be ultra sensitive to stimuli, but that is an accurate account of what happened.


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## Ed

markpulawski said:


> Actually I gave him some tads so it was not a shipped froglet but good points all Ed, so many variables not to mention the viability of a froglet that nature may have selected to eliminate.


Thanks for the clarification Mark.. It is still a good indication that the stressors still can't be decoupled. 

Ed


----------

