# What Do You Expert Builders Think?



## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

I've finally started on my first vivarium project and was hoping for a little input on some ideas i have. The tank is a 20 High and will have a small pond with a waterfall. I plan on going the false bottom route with a Great Stuff/coco fiber background.

I am trying to figure out a way to mount my pump outside the tank so servicing it won't be a hassle. My idea is to make a small reservior behind the tank to put the pump in. This also gives me the option of adding filtration and/or a water heater if needed. I have used my powerful graphics program Paint to render this diagram which will help explain:








As you can see the water can flow into the reservior thorugh a bulkhead and is then pumped up to the waterfall through another bulkhead. I added the upward facing 90 degree elbow so that the water will pool up before flowing over the side. I'm hoping this will solve the issue of having too much pressure and shoting water across the tank.

Has anybody tried this approach? My idea was that this would be a little easier than a true sump system because the water will stay at the same level and i won't have to deal with noise issues. Any ideas, experiences or criticism would be appreciated.

Once i get the water system planned out i can continue construction and start a journal with pictures so you all can follow my progress and hopefully help out. Thanks


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Looks good. I can't see anything that won't work with it from a physics stand point. 

For your false bottom It'd do a false front. It keeps the looks of a gravel bottom with out the weight. Here's how I did the front on my 75g (posted in the huge pic thread) If you look at that 75 you might also be able to see how I did the waterfall, particularly where the water comes out. I'll try to get a drawing up here tomorrow. 





















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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Is that the one that had the Schefflera in it? I really like the look of that tank. Any info on how you did your waterfall would be great. I have a small space to work in and i don't want the water flowing too fast for frog safety and noise reasons. 

Good idea on the false front, i had actually been planning on using silicone along the front and contouring it with the substrate. How did you get the gravel to follow the contours on yours?

Thanks for the input, i figured i had overlooked some huge problem and everybody would think i was crazy!

Also, anyone who has suggestions on a pump or pump/filter would help (not sure if i need filtration). I have a cheap Zoo Med MC-10 laying around but i think i will go with something of a little higher quality. I'm also looking for the bulkhead fittings. I checked my local aquarium store and they had 1/2", 3/4", and 1" all of which looked too big. Are there smaller sizes available or will i have to use adapters or something?


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2006)

I like this idea, and think it will allow a lot of flexibility as you have described. I have a couple suggestions, that you might have already considered.



RGB said:


> I added the upward facing 90 degree elbow so that the water will pool up before flowing over the side. I'm hoping this will solve the issue of having too much pressure and shoting water across the tank.


If its still to strong, placing a cap above this pool, like a rock, would restrain the stream of water coming out of the pump. Just leave a gap for the water to flow out from under it.



RGB said:


> My idea was that this would be a little easier than a true sump system because the water will stay at the same level and i won't have to deal with noise issues. Any ideas, experiences or criticism would be appreciated.


I would lower the bulk heads closer to the bottom. This would allow you more fluctuations in water height, and at the same time, prevent the reservoir from going dry. My water level changes quite a bit from misting and draining. It would also better your odds against air entering your return line causing noise.

Keep us posted on how this is going. I'm interested to see how it works out. :wink:


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Rad3Dad said:


> If its still to strong, placing a cap above this pool, like a rock, would restrain the stream of water coming out of the pump. Just leave a gap for the water to flow out from under it.


Yeah, i was thinking of maybe putting a little gravel in there but i think a rock would work even better, i'll give it a try



Rad3Dad said:


> I would lower the bulk heads closer to the bottom. This would allow you more fluctuations in water height, and at the same time, prevent the reservoir from going dry. My water level changes quite a bit from misting and draining. It would also better your odds against air entering your return line causing noise.


I was actually gonna ask about that. I originally put it up high thinking that it would help filter through any stuff floating on top of the water. Like you said though, that doesn't allow for much fluctuation in water height, thanks for catching that.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

if you are worried about spray or razy water flowing off the top of the waterfall just make a larger reservior that fills at the top of the waterfall. Obviously this makes things more complicated but you can control the amount of water going over the flow without the worry of it getting our of control (at least at the top of the flow). 
I did with with a very ghetto waterfall about 10 years ago, before I had a clue what I was doing. The water worked great, and I could run a nice arching stream over it without any worries at the inlet from the pump. 
You could throw a false bottom in the top area along with some larger rocks to prevent drownings, and also eliminate almost all turbulance from the pump...


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## Hak (Jul 10, 2005)

RGB i actually set my viv for hyla cinera up very similarly to your diagram and it has worked out great. Wish i had some good pics to show you, i dont have a good enough camera and the disposable ones just dont cut it in clarity or light.  The best part about having the sump set up next to the tank instead of under it is it will never overflow since water level in the tank and sump will equalize, and its great to be able to access the pump and stuff outside of the tank. The only thing i did different was i extended the drain tube into the false bottom and added a 90 degree elbow pointing downward so when i drained it it would siphon almost all of the water from the tank since the main drain is at the bottom of the sump. Ill get some pics ASAP! Anyways good luck and have fun with the construction i know i did :lol:


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## Hak (Jul 10, 2005)

Oh yeah I forgot to mention i set my waterall up like Schism had said, The water flow sstraight up into a small pool that fills up before it overflows and it works great and i dont hear the water at all. All i really hear from that viv is the darned PC fans that cool the light hood and the male GTF calling about 3-4 times a day


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Schism said:


> if you are worried about spray or razy water flowing off the top of the waterfall just make a larger reservior that fills at the top of the waterfall.


Yeah, that was what i was planning. It's kinda hard to see in the drawing. I'm also probably gonna do what Rad3Dad Suggested and put a rock on top to prevent splashing. I'm thinking of using some screen to prevent frogs from getting between the rock and the reservior.



Hak said:


> RGB i actually set my viv for hyla cinera up very similarly to your diagram and it has worked out great


Great to hear this has worked before. I like your idea about adding the drain tube. Was it able to suck up the debris on the bottom of the tank? Any pictures you can come up with would be great, thanks.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Okay, now that i'm pretty sure my plan will work i just need to get my tank drilled for bulkheads. I found an aquarium shop that will drill it but they only carry 1/2" 3/4" and 1" Bulkheads. Will i be able to hook my return line from the pump to the 1/2" bulkhead? It looked too big to me, but then again, i've never done this before. Anyone tried it? Also if i do use the 1/2", i was thinking i should use the 3/4" for the drain back to the reservior. This would allow it to keep up with the pressurized 1/2" line. Will this be appropriate?

Sorry for all the questions but i can't seem to find anything specefic on this subject with the search feature.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

A larger drain wouldn't be a bad idea. It's more of a gurantee that it will work, as opposed to a hope. I don't care to figure out how much water can flow through a 1/2" hole under the acceleration of gravity, but with a 3/4" hole it will be more and that's a good thing on a drain.



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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

The bigger the better. I would try and get it drilled at 1". 3/4" is probably enough to handle all all the flow your want, especially after you turn you flow down (1/2" line will carry way more water than you want) but you have to factor in debri in that drain. If a leaf, dirt clog, etc gets stuck on or around that drain, the smaller the hole the more likely you are that it clogs and causes distaster. The only real difference you will notice once its done with the larger drain is a different pitch to you drain noise..


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2006)

*Strange Suggestion*

Here's a strange sugestion. If the tank is acrylic, why don't you just keep the pump in the water under the false bottom. If you are doing an external resevoir just to have access to the pump, then do this instead:

Cut a square in the back of the tank above the high water level (bottom should be level with the false bottom) and big enough to fit your hand easily. build your waterfall with a gap in the back so as to leave easy access to the pump. This has everything you current plan has, but you don't have to build a seperate resevoir. With your current design, you don't really pickup one of the key advantages of a sump which it a constant water level. The design would look like this (ignore periods):


l....................l
l....................l
l.................../
l................./
l.............../
l..............l
lxxxxxxxxl
l....................l
l....................l
l...........pumpl
-----------------


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I agree with putting the pump in with the tank and have done that on many tanks and worked great. I would do two other holes though, one for overflow...I have a hole drilled at the highest level of water I want for the tank and let that drain into a bucket. You may need this if you mist or you will be constantly manually maintaining the water level. Secondly, I put a hole at the lowest point I can get it into the tank and this is for completely draining all water from the tank. It is a nice option that I tend to use after 2 to 4 months and I give the whole system new water.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

gzollinger:
That's a good idea but the aquarium is glass. Idon't understand what you mean about this not having the same advantages as a sump? I still have a constant water level.

David:
I wanted to put a drain in the bottom like you describe but the shop is charging me $25 per hole. If i can find someplace cheaper i will add a drain for sure, but if not i'll just put the return line as low in a corner as possible so i can just tilt it to get the water out. 
If i do add an auto misting system, i'll probably feed it through the reservior so overflow won't be an issue (i'll probably have to change the nozzles every once in a while). I do like the idea of an overflow though, if only it wouldn't cost another $25 on top of the $50 i'm putting into a tank that cost $20. :?


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Ron,
I'll tell ya what, I have a bit I used for my tank, I think it is 5/8, I will send it to you and do it yourself and put as many holes as you want. It is stressful but it can be done. Read some of the links on how to do it and give it a shot. I really recommend that you have a misting system and even though you may not want to spend the money now, in the future you will and you will want to be set up to go. Misting systems really make a positive difference in plant, moss, and frog life. You could never constantly hand spray like that........I know I used to do it and man was I happy when I set up my first misting system. PM your address and I will ship it for you.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

One more thing I don't think that you can actually put the hole at the bottom of the tank, it is probably tempered. just put it very low in the back.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Thanks David, i'll give it a try. Besides, even if i break two tanks before i get one right it'll still be cheaper than the aquarium shop doing it :roll: . I'll probably go get some scrap glass from the glass shop and practice first. I'm also gonna check with Marty at Mist King when i get that far. I like that 2 nozzle setup. Like you said, it will be much easier than hand spraying and will do a better job.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2006)

I am by far no expert, and this advice/question may be waaay too late, but Why not just get a pump with an inlet for tubing, that way you can have the pump suck out water directly into the pump? Like the pumps that Mist king provide, this eliminates the second resevoir since the pump will always be dry.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Because that's way too easy! Actually i hadn't thought of that, however i still see advantages in the way i'm doing it.

Advantages:
1. No need to worry about hoses and power cords running out the top of the tank (The only holes in the top will be for the misting nozzles and temp/hygrometer cord). This means less worry about frogs or flies escaping. (Although your idea provides this too)

2. Water changes will be as simple as sliding my stand away from the wall and replacing the water in the reservior (The reservoir will be hidden behind the tank on the stand).

3. I have the option of adding filters, heaters, etc without doing anything to the actual tank. 

Disadvantages:
1. Drilling the tank

2. Having to hide the reservior


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

With an inline pump you can add filter/heating elements with ease. I know Pentair Aquatics has alot of "modules" for their dry pumps. I picked up their 4000HH and am quite pleased.



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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

How do the inline pumps, heaters and filters compare price-wise to submersible ones? I figured those were more high end, therfore way more expensive. If they aren't super pricey i may go that route. Any suppliers/ websites you would recommend? I'll do a search for Pentair.

*Update:*
I did a quick search for Pentair. 

What do you think of the quiet one 1200 pump?
The GHP sounds way too high (296 gph).

And what about this filter and heater module?

They aren't anymore expensive than what i was gonna buy, except you have to add a heater to that module.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I currently don't have any modules hooked up to this pump. For a waterfall a 1200 might need a bypass valve put in with the plumbing (very easy/inexpensive), otherwise it will be too strong like you said. When I get some filters I'm going to get the mechanical/chemical filter and maybe a UV sterilizer depending if I think I need it. I think the prices for the filters are very reasonable and their pumps are very nice.



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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Yeah, those look like really good products. 

So to put in a bypass would i just plumb some sort of valve/tee on the return line with most of the water returning via another hose and bulkhead below the water line?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The picture shows how a bypass valve is plumbed into the system. As the valve is opened more and more water will flow directly back into the intake, thus reducing flow to your tank and not stressing the pump.



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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Okay you guys conviced me so i ordered that Pentair 120 inline pump. Thanks for explaining it to me Mike, it looks pretty simple like you said. I found it online for around what i was gonna spend for a cheap pond pump at Lowe's. I'm still waiting to finish my tank drilling before i start my journal, but hopefully that should be this week.

On a side note, i got my first fly cultures on Saturday (Thank's Ed's, great stuff). I should be comfortable culturing by the time i'm done with the Viv and aquire some frogs.


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## Biznatch (Aug 30, 2005)

The problems you are going to run into without the sump is the water level. I just skimmed over a lot of the stuff since I'm at work and all, but if you just put the pump inline with everything it wont be any different than if the pump was in the tank. If you keep mising the water level will build up and get higher than you want, or if you don't mist enough it will evap and go too low. The idea of an overflow w/ sump keeps the tank level the same and the sump level fluctuates. Although I would put the sump under the tank as apposed to behind it because you'll notice an 8" gap between the back of the tank and the wall.

Also if they are charging you 25$ a hole for the tank I would buy a diamon hole saw and drill it yourself. I did it and it was supprisingly easy if you take your time (I put 3 holes in my exo-terra). If you do have a sump you can spend a lot less on the heater part of it since you can get a 15$ submersible heater and put it in there instead of the pentair inline system and a heater to put in it. If you have any other questions you can check out my journal which has a lot of pictures/explenations that are probably more clear than I just was.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The pentair pumps are also submergable, so a sump isn't out of the question. Also the bypass will work with a sump, that's actually where I saw it done first. Instead of the pump having an intake pipe it will be sitting in water, so just have the ball valve empty into the water, same operation with two different plumbing options.



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## Biznatch (Aug 30, 2005)

^ That is what I was going to do with my pumps in the sump but instead I put a ball valve directly on the line into the tank since I only had to slow the water down a little bit. Although with a 1200gph pump, even with a 3' head it's prolly going to be putting out like 3x as much water as you'll want but you wont know untill it's all setup. Then you can just adjust the flow as needed.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Biznatch said:


> The problems you are going to run into without the sump is the water level. I just skimmed over a lot of the stuff since I'm at work and all, but if you just put the pump inline with everything it wont be any different than if the pump was in the tank. If you keep mising the water level will build up and get higher than you want, or if you don't mist enough it will evap and go too low. The idea of an overflow w/ sump keeps the tank level the same and the sump level fluctuates. Although I would put the sump under the tank as apposed to behind it because you'll notice an 8" gap between the back of the tank and the wall.
> 
> Also if they are charging you 25$ a hole for the tank I would buy a diamon hole saw and drill it yourself. I did it and it was supprisingly easy if you take your time (I put 3 holes in my exo-terra). If you do have a sump you can spend a lot less on the heater part of it since you can get a 15$ submersible heater and put it in there instead of the pentair inline system and a heater to put in it. If you have any other questions you can check out my journal which has a lot of pictures/explenations that are probably more clear than I just was.


My idea is to make a setup that is easily maintained. If the pump and heater are submerged in the tank, the tank will have to be partially disassembled to access them. Also, since it's an 18 tall, it's pretty narrow and the stand will be a bit deeper than the tank. This allows me to space it away from the wall to give room for the pump/filter, etc. I'm gonna design the stand to hide all of the stuff behind.
I will be adding a misting system so low water shouldn't be a problem. I'll also install a drain to handle overflow.
Another member was nice enough to loan me a bit to drill the tank and i ordered a few more sizes on ebay as well. $25 a hole is a rip-off.
Do you have a link to your journal? I always like to get ideas from peoples journals.



defaced said:


> The pentair pumps are also submergable, so a sump isn't out of the question. Also the bypass will work with a sump, that's actually where I saw it done first. Instead of the pump having an intake pipe it will be sitting in water, so just have the ball valve empty into the water, same operation with two different plumbing options.


Yeah, that's what i liked about that model. I can always change to a true sump if i decide to. Good info, Thanks.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2006)

i think its a gr8 idea, how large exactly do you think you'll make the sump. Also, just an idea, you can use the sump as a refugium also couldnt you? Meaning you can use biological filtration in the sump you make.


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## Biznatch (Aug 30, 2005)

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10349


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Biznatch said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10349


Hey, i remember following your journal. You came up with a lot of good ideas for your sump. I think the next tank i do will be very similar to that one since it will be larger.
On the tank i'm doing now, i want to save space underneath for supplies, fly cultures, etc. With a sump underneath, it doesn't leave much space (as i'm sure you can attest to).
So have you had a chance to finish it? I saw the waterfall pics but never any with plants, i'm anxious to see how it looks with plants in it.


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## RussS (Oct 11, 2005)

RGB said:


> I've finally started on my first vivarium project and was hoping for a little input on some ideas i have. The tank is a 20 High and will have a small pond with a waterfall. I plan on going the false bottom route with a Great Stuff/coco fiber background.
> 
> I am trying to figure out a way to mount my pump outside the tank so servicing it won't be a hassle. My idea is to make a small reservior behind the tank to put the pump in. This also gives me the option of adding filtration and/or a water heater if needed. I have used my powerful graphics program Paint to render this diagram which will help explain:
> 
> ...


From a (qualified) physics point of view, you need to lower the transfer tube to the bottom of your tank so the resevoir doesn't run dry.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

RussS said:


> From a (qualified) physics point of view, you need to lower the transfer tube to the bottom of your tank so the resevoir doesn't run dry.


I've actually decided to not use the reservior at all and run a dry inline pump/filter. I will however put the return line as low as possible like you said to keep the pump from cavitating if the water gets low.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> From a (qualified) physics point of view, you need to lower the transfer tube to the bottom of your tank so the resevoir doesn't run dry.


Why do you say that? Unless the transfer tube is significantly smaller in diameter than the pump tube, or the rate of flow provided by the pump is greater than the rate of flow provided by gravity through the transfer tube, I can't see how the resavoir could empty. 

With the pump off, the water in the pond and resavoir will be at the same height, this assumes the resavoir is subjected to atmospheric pressure, ie it's not a sealed top design. When the pump starts the water level of the resavoir will decrease slightly for a moment until equilibrium is reached between flow in and flow out of the resavoir. Because of the small height difference of the water in the pond the pressure at the top and bottom of the water is going ot be almost the same making the rate of flow due to gravity essentially the same reguardless of where the transfer tube is put on the tank, side vs bottom. Thus leaving the diameter of the transfer tube to be the only variable, and simple using a larger diameter than the pump tube will solve any flow problems associated with size. 

I realise that RGB isn't going to use this method, but at some point in time I may end up using it and I'd like to hear what you have to say.



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## Biznatch (Aug 30, 2005)

I actually have been screwing around on my new watercooled computer I just built and my funding headed to that so I never ordered the plants. I have however finished the computer and have the funding for the tank again so I'm ordering plants this week. I have contacted the member on these boards at peaceofthetropics about some bromeliads and will order the rest of the plants from either black jungle (kinda expensive) or cloud jungle epiphytes (out of stock). If not then I'll check some of the companies we order plants from at my work and see if they can get me some good deals on indoor plants  I dont know yet since we only order outdoor stuff.

And he is correct about that resevoir working, provided the bulkhead was beneath the desired waterlevel of the tank and was at least 1/2" or so. That would have to be a giant waterfall to have the pump drain the tank/resevoir lower than the bulkhead before it starts returning.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2006)

defaced- What you describe is correct. The only problem is that it will be very sensitive to evaporation. When the water level falls below the drainpipe more will have to be supplied from the reservoir to bring the level up in the main tank to flow through the drain. The result will be (I think) that the level in the reservoir will fall suddenly. Plus the system doesn't have the advantage of dictating a regular level in the main tank; but the tank and reservoir will rise and fall together.

RGB- I'm currently building a 48x24x48 inch acrylic vivarium, and here's how I plan to do the plumbing. Three holes drilled in the lower back. 

One will be a drain to an external waste container and will maintain the level in the display. It will have an up pointing 90 degree fitting. I plant to have a regular surplus of water entering the system through a misting system, so this will be like a gradual water change.

Two will be plumbed directly to an external pump which will direct water through an inline heater and to a waterfall (4th hole higher up). 

Three will be a cleanout drain, with a 90 degree elbow pointing down to the bottom. I'll keep this closed with an external ballvalve, but it will be available to drain or change water in a way that sucks out bottom detritus.

Things to keep in mind regarding aquarium pumps: You can restrict the exit, even severely, without harming the pump. Just use a ball valve after the pump. Aquarium pumps don't suck well, do anything to provide easy acces to the intake side; I oversize the plumbing. Restricting the intake causes cavitation. I missed in the thread if you picked a pump; most of the external ones are way oversized for your application. There are a number that run submersed or emersed. The Mag series, mag2 to mag12 (I think) are decent and I have several running externally. The number corresponds roughly to 100s gallons per hour. Also I think Eheims will run externally also, and they are excellent quality.

Interesting anecdote: I have a couple of massive pool pumps running in my basement (moving water for reeftank upstairs) and the totally counterintuitive thing is that the more you restrict the exit to the pump, the LESS power it uses. Slowing the rotation of the pump causes it to draw less juice.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

DanConnor said:


> RGB- I'm currently building a 48x24x48 inch acrylic vivarium, and here's how I plan to do the plumbing. Three holes drilled in the lower back.
> 
> One will be a drain to an external waste container and will maintain the level in the display. It will have an up pointing 90 degree fitting. I plant to have a regular surplus of water entering the system through a misting system, so this will be like a gradual water change.
> 
> ...


Sounds very similar to what i'm doing. The only difference is that i'm using the pump uptake as the cleanout. With the downfacing 90 degree elbow, it sucks the tank almost completely dry. It works really well. Also, i did use the bypass valve after the pump and it works well also. I ended up going with a Pentair 1200 since it can be used dry. My only problem so far is noise, but i think i'll be able to quiet it down. At almost 300 GPH it's overkill, but it seems to be okay. I have a journal of the construction here. There's a link to a video of the system running as well. Good luck and keep us updated on your progress.


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