# Large milotympanum clutch, question



## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

I heard a bunch of calling the last few days and found some eggs scattered about the tank. I doubt those will be fertile but I am going to leave them in there anyways. 

This morning I noticed my other female was looking much slimmer and after poking around found a huge clutch under the cork curl and buried in some spag. Should I leave it in the tank until they start to hatch or should I pull it after I start to see development?

I have heard the eggs do better in the dark and should not be exposed to light... any truth to this?


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

I usually leave them in place until I start to see tads wiggling or the eggs start degrading. Males are sometimes lazy about fertilizing and this gives them more of a chance to get the job done. I have heard about eggs being sensitive to light. But I have held them in ambient rooom light with no problems. I wouldn't go putting them under a self-ballasted mercury vapor lamp or anything though.

Take pics! Good luck!


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Thank you Rich,

I will leave them be until i start to see some development. Also I have read that raising them in cooler water and a larger amount of water with filtration is a good thing. I have a couple ten gallons I could set up and fill all the way or part of the way. Would that be better than deli cups? Also what about the water dept....

Ok sorry for all the questions. I just want to get it right this time. 

Pics to come soon.


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

I have read some things about using filtration. The thread I wa sinvolved in discussed using sponge filters. While they will aid in grabbing particulates out of the water. Adding a new sponge filter out of the box isn't going ot help with nitrogenous waster for a month or so. Brand new tads tend ot sit on th ebottom and do nothing until they absorb all of their yolk. So the airation/filtration should be limited until they start swimming.

I always raised mine in a wash basin from the hospital en masse with small water changes every other day when young and daily when they got older. My froglets morphed out small, so I may not be doing things optimally.

You don't want the water super-soft because it will lead to pH drops. Other than that, ideal fish water quality would apply.

hth,
Rich


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Rich nailed it on the head. I don't bother with filters but I do use a layer of leaf litter, a ton of aquatics and do partial water changes every two days or so, usually the day after a heavy feeding. 10 or so tads to a 190oz seems to work, as does a 10G (2/3 filled) for about 50 or so.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

A layer of leaf litter on the bottom? Or like almond leaves for the tannins?

Aquatics - As in plants - Java moss, anacharis, riccia? That type?

What about the water temps?

Sorry for all the questions.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Yeah, I prepare all my water a few weeks before but use tap water with chlorine remover and a ton of almond leaves so when I do water changes chunks of the leaves come out and accumulate on the bottom (which the tads love). As for aquatics, I use duckweed, java and salvnia, but you can also use pothos or even ficus, both will grow fine submerged. I also have snails, worms, diatoms, etc. in the containers as well and I bet they help a bit. 

Re: temps, all my tads are kept at room temperature in 190oz above the racks, so 70-80s depending on the time of year.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

stemcellular said:


> Yeah, I prepare all my water a few weeks before but use tap water with chlorine remover and a ton of almond leaves so when I do water changes chunks of the leaves come out and accumulate on the bottom (which the tads love). As for aquatics, I use duckweed, java and salvnia, but you can also use pothos or even ficus, both will grow fine submerged. I also have snails, worms, diatoms, etc. in the containers as well and I bet they help a bit.
> 
> Re: temps, all my tads are kept at room temperature in 190oz above the racks, so 70-80s depending on the time of year.


 
I am going to set up the 10 gal tonight in hopes that atleast some of them do make it. 

I have a little bit of java left I will throw in there along with some riccia. I do have some pothos floating around I will use it as well. Might stop and pick up some more aquatic plants on the way home. Seems like the more the merrier. 

The tannis dont bother them? I also have sea grape and mag leaves.... Either of those ok?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I would think so. Remember, they breed in what are essentially big vernal pools, consisting of dirt, leaf litter, plants, etc.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

stemcellular said:


> I would think so. Remember, they breed in what are essentially big vernal pools, consisting of dirt, leaf litter, plants, etc.


 
Good thing to know. 

Ok last question ( ok probably not but anyways) should I put some kind of areation in the tank after the start swimming. Not necessarily a filter but just some air for some water movement?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I don't but others will likely disagree.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Congrats on the new clutch. I recently had a clutch of milos and it did not (is not) going well so far. I'll share some of my experiences and hopefully you can avoid what happened (happening) to me. I set up a 10 gallon with about 2-3 inches of water, some leaves, plants, gravel, etc. for the tads. This seems to work well for others. 
-I used 2-3 airstones the first week turned down low, and then added another later on as water movement/ gas exchange. What I unfortunately did not realize was that this evaporated and changed the water's pH rapidly (probably from so much gas exchange) next time, I will use a sponge filter (NOT a standard filter, because even though the tads look too big to fit through the filter slits, they will- found this out the hard way)
-I never really added more water, the level stayed at about 3-4 inches. I didn't think they needed any more since they only stayed on the bottom. Next time I will add more water, to give more space and clean water.
- I also never did regular water changes. I did siphon out detritus a few times but I just added water to replace evaporated water for the most part. Again, next time I will do more water changes.
- Mine didn't seem to eat much. I will use a more varied diet next time.

My 30 or so tads had grown quickly and seemed healthy for the first 3 weeks or so. Then, they stopped growing and grew thinner. I began to see slow die-offs, maybe 1-2 per day. I collected 8 live tadpoles from the tank and placed them into individual cups like all of my other tads right before a massive die-off, leaving none in the tank. Within 3 days, all but 2 had died. Another one died yesterday. I think there was something in the water, maybe some sort of disease or something, that caused them all to stop growing and rapidly decline. They also did not appear to eat after they stopped growing, they may have starved as well. With my next clutch, I plan on placing each tadpole individually in deli cups or perhaps 2-3 per cup. Keeping them all together was not successful for me.
These are just some of my personal observations, it was my first try so I expected to learn for next time. Hopefully you have better luck with yours!
Bryan

*Edit* I have just lost the last of my tads. I think they were too far-gone when I put them in individual cups. Maybe next time...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Congrats on the new clutch. I recently had a clutch of milos and it did not (is not) going well so far. I'll share some of my experiences and hopefully you can avoid what happened (happening) to me. I set up a 10 gallon with about 2-3 inches of water, some leaves, plants, gravel, etc. for the tads. This seems to work well for others.
> -I used 2-3 airstones the first week turned down low, and then added another later on as water movement/ gas exchange. What I unfortunately did not realize was that this evaporated and changed the water's pH rapidly (probably from so much gas exchange) next time, I will use a sponge filter (NOT a standard filter, because even though the tads look too big to fit through the filter slits, they will- found this out the hard way)
> -I never really added more water, the level stayed at about 3-4 inches. I didn't think they needed any more since they only stayed on the bottom. Next time I will add more water, to give more space and clean water.
> - I also never did regular water changes. I did siphon out detritus a few times but I just added water to replace evaporated water for the most part. Again, next time I will do more water changes.
> ...



Was this a new set up (none of the materials came from a system that had an active and established biological filtration system)? The reason I'm asking is because 30 days is about when you should be seeing ammonia, and nitrite in a tank that is cycling. This would also be explained by a shift in the pH towards a more acidic system (as the actual conversion is ammonia to nitrous acid (nitrite) then to nitric acid(nitrate)). Nitrite poisoning does fit your symptoms.. 
Heavy aeration can actually reduce the problem (unless the bioload is too high) by outgassing some of the ammonia. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I use sponge filters in all mantella tadpole setups. I do not use filtration for the first few weeks until they are stronger.

I set the air stone on low and use a lot of floating plants, pothos, and dead leaves. Some tadpole containers I do not change water for several weeks with few problems.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Sounds like nutritional deficiency (adults and/or tads) as far as wasting away goes. Mantella tads should be fed at least every other day. If they are healthy they will grow incredibly fast. I've never used filters, airstones, etc, and have never experienced any sort of large scale die off. How frequently were you feeding? IME, they produce an extraordinary amount of waste so frequent water changes are essential.

However, I've tank raised two species, both growing up fine in a few inches of murky tank water, without any supplementation. So go figure.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Thank you all for the advice. 

I have not bothered the eggs yet but I hope when I get home today to have a few minutes to get some pics. It has been a while since I seen a fertile clutch so I can not remember how long before development is seen.

HOpefully I dont have a supplement issue. I feed them daily with dusted feeders calcium one day, herpavite the next and rephasy the next. They eat fruit flies, pinhead, bean beeltes, rice flour beetles and the occasion baby roach if I can find them small enough. 

I did set up a ten gal last night. It has about 3 inches of water. I am also going to try raising a few up in a 190 to see which works out better for me. Depending on how many I get to tads depends on how many different way i will try. The clutch looks to be about 30-40 eggs but I will try to count better when I get some pics. 

I still have one huge female and the males are still calling alot so I am crossing fingers for another clutch in the next few days.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

I got some pics of the eggs last night. i dont really see any development but they are only 2 days old. I am going to take some more pics today when I get home.

The plans are to take daily pics and upload every few days. 

The males are still calling and the one female is still huge. I am still crossing the fingers for clutch number 2.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Ed said:


> Was this a new set up (none of the materials came from a system that had an active and established biological filtration system)? The reason I'm asking is because 30 days is about when you should be seeing ammonia, and nitrite in a tank that is cycling. This would also be explained by a shift in the pH towards a more acidic system (as the actual conversion is ammonia to nitrous acid (nitrite) then to nitric acid(nitrate)). Nitrite poisoning does fit your symptoms..
> Heavy aeration can actually reduce the problem (unless the bioload is too high) by outgassing some of the ammonia.
> 
> Ed


Hi Ed,
Everything was new (except for the live plants) so nothing was seeded with biological filtration bacteria. I am aware of the nitrogen cycle as I keep fish tanks as well, but I didn't even think about that (probably because I never cycled any other containers used for tadpoles) It makes sense that this was at least part of the problem. Normally, the 30 day mark would about complete the cycle and there would not be any ammonia or nitrite at that time, possibly just some NO3. I'm assuming since the bioload was significantly high for an newly established tank, the cycle was prolonged and the ammonia/nitrite levels continued to build up and never fully peaked, because the tadpoles did grow fine for a while before things hit a standstill and then went downhill. The pH actually went up, from about 6.8/7.0- 7.6/7.8 every couple of days (I checked the pH whenever I went to top off the water) but I think it may have been evaporating quickly since it was shallow and had a light over it with four airstones constantly bubbling and no lid. 
As far as feeding, I fed a spirulina-based algae flake food ever day or every other day scattered around the tank where the tadpoles were. They seemed to eat this at first, but they preferred to graze on algae growing on the gravel and oak leaves. I think this was another factor as to why mine failed, and I think I need to find a food that they eat more readily next time.
Bryan


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Day 3/4 and every one is still looking good. I think I can see some development happening in the large clutch. 

I will try for pics tonight.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Some pics of the clutch


















And the stragglers


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

How are the mantella tads doing porkchop?


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

JimO said:


> How are the mantella tads doing porkchop?


 
Not well. Not well 

But lots of calling going on so hoping for a new clutch soon. 

Their tank is slowing becoming a mess from all the "rain" Might need to change out the spag soon. Looking a little icky.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

they will come around sooner or later kristy. 

don't give up hope


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