# Why are vivs so UGLY now?



## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

Seriously, on places like here and aquascaping sites, every new journal is about an ugly tank. I mean, a couple years ago like every single aquarium on xxx were really nice! But now, its all crap. Its like that here too. I guess if your a noob, or a breeder, then what it looks like-truly doesn't matter. My tanks aren't the prettiest (yet) but I don't go around bragging about it. Does anyone agree or am I just being too picky?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I can see your point. I think alot of tanks anymore are throw togethers. Supplies are easier to come by now a days, so there is alot less planning. Grab what you need and throw it all together. 

Vivariums are becoming more multi-purpose as well. One viv is good for what ever species. And is built and then immediately inhabited. 

An azureus viv should have a plethora of boulders and rocks, while a Auratus viv should have some rocks and alot of buttress roots and a shoreline. But habitat isn't mimicked much any more. 

Vivariums aren't really set up species habitat specific.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Or maybe people are learning that the cool looking waterfall really doesn't serve any purpose for dart frogs. 

And leaf litter is much more suitable then the mossy floor. 

Maybe we're learning that was is pleasing to our eyes and what is pleasing to the frogs are two different things and many people are putting frogs first. 
Just a thought.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Arpeggio,

Yes, you are being too picky. If you want to work on creating a visually-stunning terrarium, that's a great goal for you to have. If you are building a vivarium to house poison dart frogs, you will probably find that you can't shove 50 different plant species in there, have water features, and all moss and still have a good habitat for the frogs.

I would venture to say that more people are learning how to build for the frogs and not just for floral displays, and that is good for the hobby.

Take care, Richard.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Or maybe our hobby is moving towards more functional tanks as opposed to prettier ones? I try to keep my vivs both functional and nice looking, though


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I agree, I've seen a number of tanks that are uninspiring. As well as a number of tanks that are overdone. Personally, I think the best tanks are some of the simplest, but well planned. You can have a very fine tank with moss, a few vines, and a couple broms. It's all dependent on how it is set up. In fact, I am more often than not, more impressed with those simpler tanks because they more accurately mimic natural conditions. My favorite tank of mine is my buttress tank, and I only have two broms (which have pupped), some moss, and a couple of vines. It's simple and elegant in its simplicity.

And I think that that is probably the biggest issue folks have is that they have not planned out the hardscape and where to put plants. In my experience, the most planning is dealing with the hardscape and visualizing how the tank will be finished before it's planted.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

MonarchzMan said:


> I agree, I've seen a number of tanks that are uninspiring. As well as a number of tanks that are overdone. Personally, I think the best tanks are some of the simplest, but well planned. You can have a very fine tank with moss, a few vines, and a couple broms. It's all dependent on how it is set up. In fact, I am more often than not, more impressed with those simpler tanks because they more accurately mimic natural conditions. My favorite tank of mine is my buttress tank, and I only have two broms (which have pupped), some moss, and a couple of vines. It's simple and elegant in its simplicity.
> 
> And I think that that is probably the biggest issue folks have is that they have not planned out the hardscape and where to put plants. In my experience, the most planning is dealing with the hardscape and visualizing how the tank will be finished before it's planted.


Exactly my point. If you look at pictures of the habitat and plan it out, a simple design will provide all the needs and look better in my opion.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Go big or go home!


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

I think this is the rudest post I've ever read on here.
First, what gives you the right to come on here and put other people down? Second, you have no idea about other people. Maybe they don't have much money and do what they can. Maybe they don't have much artistic talent. Maybe they never read that apparently there is a rule that it has to mimic the particular species habitat. Maybe they don't live near a nursery where they have access to many types of plants. Maybe they're 12 and just wanted to get frogs and didn't care about impressing other people. Maybe they were given frogs and had to come up with something quick. You have no idea. People like you don't even try to think about any of those possibilities, you just let the words fall out of your brain onto the keyboard.

Can you please let us all know the "right" way to make a viv?

But what gets me the most upset is that people might actually take pride in what they've done. What they've accomplished. They are proud of themselves and want to show what they've done, and you tell them it looks like crap. 

I would like to go on, but I'm getting angrier by the moment. I've reported this post.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

I don't find the post rude at all, he didn't name anyone in particular, it was just a criticism of an observation he has made.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

tachikoma said:


> I don't find the post rude at all, he didn't name anyone in particular, it was just a criticism of an observation he has made.


He said, "*every* new journal is about an ugly tank. I mean, a couple years ago like every single aquarium on xxx were really nice! But now,* its all crap.* Its like that here too."

He said your tanks are ugly and crap.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When I look at a number of the enclosures that people are going crazy over on aesthetics, it appears to me that the frogs are an afterthought. This is reflected in a few threads where people post pictures of the enclosure and ask what they should put in it. 

Often the enclosures are so heavily planted that there is little open area for terrestrial species to easily move around. 

Just some comments...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Personally, I think you are overreacting.

His opinion is just an observation.

I disagree with it - but everyone has the right to their own opinion/observation.

And for what it's worth, he had it in Thunderdome initially. Your reaction must be the one he anticipated by posting there. 

s



oneshot said:


> He said, "*every* new journal is about an ugly tank. I mean, a couple years ago like every single aquarium on xxx were really nice! But now,* its all crap.* Its like that here too."
> 
> He said your tanks are ugly and crap.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I spent a lot of time working on my first tank. A little less time on my second tank after I realized that the plants I really like are the ones that die first. 

Now, I think about what will live in a suboptimal environment for plants and will give my frogs the best cover. My newest vivs consist of false bottom/drainage, substrate, and whatever cheap plants I can find that will live in a tank. 

Some day I'd like to build a beautiful paludariam and maybe have frogs and/or fish in it. Some day.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> When I look at a number of the enclosures that people are going crazy over on aesthetics, it appears to me that the frogs are an afterthought. This is reflected in a few threads where people post pictures of the enclosure and ask what they should put in it.



YES...I've noted this, too. Shouldn't it be "I want X frog, what would be an ideal setup for it?"


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

oneshot said:


> I think this is the rudest post I've ever read on here.
> First, what gives you the right to come on here and put other people down? Second, you have no idea about other people. Maybe they don't have much money and do what they can. Maybe they don't have much artistic talent. Maybe they never read that apparently there is a rule that it has to mimic the particular species habitat. Maybe they don't live near a nursery where they have access to many types of plants. Maybe they're 12 and just wanted to get frogs and didn't care about impressing other people. Maybe they were given frogs and had to come up with something quick. You have no idea. People like you don't even try to think about any of those possibilities, you just let the words fall out of your brain onto the keyboard.
> 
> Can you please let us all know the "right" way to make a viv?
> ...


Calm down a bit, man. If you're happy with your viv, who cares what a random stranger on the internet says about it?

Viv building is an art form, for sure, and the more one gets into it, the more one tends, and has opportunity, to experiment and try new things. It's a constant process. My favorite viv is a concrete viv, which is something I've not made in several vivariums. The one I made after that was another concrete viv, that I tore down, and tried some epiweb stuff and a drip wall to get moss going. I haven't tried that since, since I haven't figured out a way I can utilize it in the way that I want. The viv after that one, I created foam rocks with a drip wall. This last viv I am currently making is foam rocks without a drip wall.

It's all about experimentation and I'm constantly redoing my methods. If you're looking for visual aesthetics in your viv, I imagine you should also view vivarium building as an evolving process. I remember my first vivarium, which I was very proud of when I made it, and in retrospect looking at it, it was very basic and fairly visually unappealing. If you're into a visual environment for your viv, you should have this view. Otherwise, you're never going to improve upon your style.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

oneshot said:


> He said, "*every* new journal is about an ugly tank. I mean, a couple years ago like every single aquarium on xxx were really nice! But now,* its all crap.* Its like that here too."
> 
> He said your tanks are ugly and crap.


I am sure the word every is an exaggeration more or less meaning many. Either way I think you are taking this a bit too much to heart. 

Ed, I do agree with your observations however, I don't agree with the notion some seem to have here that it can either be aesthetically pleasing or a spartan frogtopia. The places these frogs live are beautiful, with patience and careful planning one can have the best of both worlds, a beautiful and functional frog vivarium is entirely possible and it doesn't have to cost a fortune, although it doesn't hurt.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Scott said:


> snip...
> And for what it's worth, he had it in Thunderdome initially. Your reaction must be the one he anticipated by posting there.
> 
> s


I wish you would have left it in the Thunderdome. IMO, Arpeggio is a really nice fella who wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings in the open forum.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

TDome is for controversial subjects. Not really frog subjects.

I don't consider this controversial and it really should be discussed openly.

Quite a few people go to TDome also - so it's not like it would be "hidden" there.

s


frogface said:


> I wish you would have left it in the Thunderdome. IMO, Arpeggio is a really nice fella who wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings in the open forum.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Arpeggio, I think you just need to take a better look around. There are some amazing threads that have come out recently. Revolution's exo, Arielelf's rocky exo, Ryan's buttress tree roots, RoberthValera's antique build. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though, so maybe they arent your style...Perhaps my peninsula build is  haha

Most of the nicer tanks tend to be larger, its proven science. Frog collectors simply cant put the effort into 50 tanks as a person can put into a feature viv, and that leads to them having to pinpoint the frog's natural habitat in the small amount of space they provide (leaves and a few plants) However I dont like how the collectors try and sway everybody in thinking tiny leaf litter tanks are better then a complex plant filled viv. Its a little closed minded to their ways of doing things. I hope the hobby starts to move towards the best of both worlds. Nothing wrong with having a water feature and all the doo-dads so long as the frogs needs are met also. Thats what I'm trying to do and Im proud of it.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I pump out nothing but crap.... sorry


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

JoshH said:


> I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game


Holiday was the best!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tachikoma said:


> Ed, I do agree with your observations however, I don't agree with the notion some seem to have here that it can either be aesthetically pleasing or a spartan frogtopia. The places these frogs live are beautiful, with patience and careful planning one can have the best of both worlds, a beautiful and functional frog vivarium is entirely possible and it doesn't have to cost a fortune, although it doesn't hurt.


 
I do agree it can be done and it doesn't have to cost a fortune.. but it requires planning ahead of time. 
All of my tanks are on the spartan side at this time but that is because I'm running substrate trials and need to see what I'm doing. 

Ed


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

Really? Everyone's tank is ugly and a piece of crap? Really? ?? Everyone??? Sorry we don't stand up to your high glorious expectations of what a tank should look like. I checked out your 40 gal build and although nice your plywood stained cabinet would be a real detractor for me. And then I asked myself why would someone with such high standards put out such crap? And then brag about making it himself.


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

I am sorry if I have caused hurt feelings. 

I am not trying to make it sound as if I think people suck now (which feels like some people are believing is what I feel) Simple is fine, whoopdy-do nothing wrong with it all, what I should have said is that I've noticed less people building vivariums and etc. not only for their frogs but to have an aesthetically pleasing slice of tropical heaven in their homes. 
Yes I have read many nice journals, but you wouldn't know because I typically don't comment although I have been lately as they run thin. 
Shouldn't. Have. Opened. My. Mouth. 

Again sorry for the toes I have stepped on.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Don't apologize, if someone is actually bothered by this they must live pretty damned good lives and should be thankful the worst they have going for them is a crappy viv (lol).


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## erlese (Jun 11, 2008)

I do see your point!! If Somone who has been in the Hobby for a long time. They have something to compare from the old ways and new! Building vivaria was heavily influenced by Europe at one point. Europes vivaria building methods focus on the " tank" if you will, as the primary eye candy " my exhibit" and the Frogs are secondary!! 

US hobby is now much more focused on the frogs as primary and enclosure is secondary !! So yeah!!! this affects the look and feel on any enclosure!! The US Genuine frog collectors!! Don't have the time for " the look" and focus on the function... 

Again.. This hobby is always evolving!! Are builds more ugly?? No!! Just different!! And this hobby hates change!! ( even though we are guilty of encouraging it!! ( but change is provides the pathway towards greatness)

Are you mean because you voiced your opinion!! NO!! Because anyone who takes offense, obviously is not secure enough to let the water fall of their back!!

Are some of my builds ugly????Possibly to some people!!..sure.. Different taste. But I'm happy and content with my own!! I don't need to be loud and get an ego boost by bragging!! I know where my skills are and where they are not!!

I build for my frogs and me.. Not for Dendroboard. If some like my enclosures.. VERY COOl!! If they don't """ oh well""" WHATEVER!!!

We all have our strengths, skills and likes ( if it wasn't so.. We would all have the same background!! Or set up). We have our weakness too. I much prefer to put a Marijuana plant in my enclosures!!.. Its asthetic to my eyes, i know where its going when its a subadult  It provides humidity and My frogs love it because it keeps them calm and it gives them the munchies enough to pound down some extra hydei **** JOKE***** JOKING!!! Ok. 

Seriously...This is the problem!!! Too much complaining!!!! and not enough fun in the hobby anymore!! So many on here NEED to Lighten up!!!!Enjoy your own builds and share experiences of a helping hand.. Dendroboard is here for us to learn and grow! AND HAVE FUN!!!


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## morphman (May 20, 2011)

I don't think the comment was made with ill intent. While there are quite a few beautiful AND functional displays like the ones Grimm mentioned including some of his own ; I also believe there is a certain monotony and lack of originality when it comes to the average tank. I mean I LOVE chicken but I don't want to eat fried chicken all the time !!! ( if the analogy makes sense )

People are sensitive sometimes , or they have nothing better to do so they get easily offended. If people can't handle a general opinion in a civilized manner, then a public forum might be too much to handle.

I personally love and care about the plants as much as I care about the frogs and I want to build a display that caters to both their needs plus look AMAZING !!!! I agree with others that with enough research this can be done easily...... I just don't know about the cheaply part..

Cheers


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Arpeggio,
> 
> Yes, you are being too picky. If you want to work on creating a visually-stunning terrarium, that's a great goal for you to have. If you are building a vivarium to house poison dart frogs, you will probably find that you can't shove 50 different plant species in there, have water features, and all moss and still have a good habitat for the frogs.
> 
> ...


I would disagree with this. This sounds like a great Dart viv IMO assuming its over 10-20gal. You can jam an awful lot of different plants into a small tank with all kinds of cool mini gesneriads and orchids and still have a great dart viv, or those and larger things in larger tanks. I'd do it but I could probably spend $500 or more just in plants for a 30gal if nothing was holding me back.

You don't NEED leaf litter to have a good population of micro-fauna and a suitable tank for darts. It can be done with partially buried drift wood, rocks, and some thought in how you landscape. As Long as you give them places to hide/breed, a decent substrate and your tank isn't so over populated that they get nailed the moment they show themselves so that the population is decimated and constantly has to be re-seeded then you're golden.

Also as I've mentioned in several posts over the years you can have both leaf litter and moss. Moss front lawn, leaf litter under the plants. Another thing you can do is take the fallen leaves from viv plants, or cuttings from your pruning activities and shove them in the back of the tank under all the well grown plants. They will be basically invisible but all those nutrients stay in the viv. Let them dry out side the viv first if you are afraid they will root then shove them back in.

You could even do vivs very much in the style of Japanese aqua scaping and still have them be suitable for darts. It may mean tweaking the style a bit like making the corners and back more thickly planted then they might be in an aquascaped aquarium and/or under populating the tank more then you might otherwise but it can be done. This is the main direction I'm moving towards. 
........................................

Anyways as far as the OP goes, it could have been put a little more tactfully but I agree that a lot of fairly unremarkable vivs are posted. I think thats fine though. Thats how people get feedback and improve them both aesthetically and as far as meeting the animal's needs. Also I think we want to be a place that encourages people. If people started posting..."eh your viv is lame" or "it sucks" pretty regularly , then this forum would suck IMO  

Having said that I don't compliment many people's vivs. If you've gotten a "great work" or "wow, nice job!" or something to that effect from me then you are one of only a few. Hell, I think most people really seem to like most of my vivs that I've posted, but honestly only in recent years are they even *adequate* to me aesthetically. I can see much room for improvement and many ways to merge the art with the science, but I've just been to lazy and/or to broke to make greater strides in those directions. 

Btw as I mentioned being lazy, sometimes I do see really nice vivs and don't bother to compliment, and I see lots of perfectly pleasant looking vivs and say nothing also. So don't take it personal if you've never gotten a pat on the back from from me, since I am of course the ultimate judge of vivarium awsomeness in the known universe 

Anyways I'd like to see all the encouragement continue but I'd also like to see more people interested in the art side of it and asking for feedback and getting it. It would be nice to see more USA vivs that rival the EU works of art. I think as a whole we are catching up and some are just as good as any EU viv. 

PS... I'd also like to see people experiment more with different plant types, themes, foilage/flower color schemes and maybe move away from so many dang broms, or just throwing in a pretty much random assortment of plants. My main complaint isn't that all the vivs suck, its that so many may look good but to much the same.


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## erlese (Jun 11, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> I would disagree with this. This sounds like a great Dart viv IMO assuming its over 10-20gal. You can jam an awful lot of different plants into a small tank with all kinds of cool mini gesneriads and orchids and still have a great dart viv, or those and larger things in larger tanks. I'd do it but I could probably spend $500 or more just in plants for a 30gal if nothing was holding me back.
> 
> You don't NEED leaf litter to have a good population of micro-fauna and a suitable tank for darts. It can be done with partially buried drift wood, rocks, and some thought in how you landscape. As Long as you give them places to hide/breed, a decent substrate and your tank isn't so over populated that they get nailed the moment they show themselves so that the population is decimated and constantly has to be re-seeded then you're golden.
> 
> ...


Now this is a post I can learn from!! This is why I'm on Dendroboard!! To learn from this experienced Frogger!!


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Arpeggio said:


> I am sorry if I have caused hurt feelings.
> 
> I am not trying to make it sound as if I think people suck now (which feels like some people are believing is what I feel) Simple is fine, whoopdy-do nothing wrong with it all, what I should have said is that I've noticed less people building vivariums and etc. not only for their frogs but to have an aesthetically pleasing slice of tropical heaven in their homes.
> Yes I have read many nice journals, but you wouldn't know because I typically don't comment although I have been lately as they run thin.
> ...


I wouldn't apologize at all. You started a very good discussion on viv construction and design. Although, some people may take exception to your comment I, for one, do not. In fact at some level I agree with your statement. In many cases we are finding designs that are more simple but as I stated earlier I think many hobbyist are finding that simpler is actually better. If any thing you should take pride in this thread. I have read a lot of very good post from some very well informed and highly respected hobbyist. Essentially, you have enabled the spread of knowledge and good housekeeping. So hold your chin up.

Kudos


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Arpeggio said:


> Seriously, on places like here and aquascaping sites, every new journal is about an ugly tank. I mean, a couple years ago like every single aquarium on xxx were really nice! But now, its all crap. Its like that here too. I guess if your a noob, or a breeder, then what it looks like-truly doesn't matter. My tanks aren't the prettiest (yet) but I don't go around bragging about it. Does anyone agree or am I just being too picky?


Hmmmmmm...................I think you've probably looking at my KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid - tanks. Oh well, they work for me


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

Sorry, but I see this as just an attempt to troll, and not worth the time and effort to formulate a reply to.

Regards


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

gary1218 said:


> Hmmmmmm...................I think you've probably looking at my KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid - tanks. Oh well, they work for me



That's okay. I think my newest one I just posted not too long ago also falls into this category as well


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I get the point of the original post but it seemed like everyone was pooled together. As a "newbie" I feel that I planned my tanks and worked hard to get them to an nice aesthetic AND be a good home for my frogs. My 5 vivs (that Ive built in only 3-4 months since joining dendroboard) are well planted, designed, and house my frogs in a healthy environment. I gotta say, after planting 5-10 vivs, you run out of creative ideas and begin going with whats quick easy and looks good. 

This post could be about anything in life. Some people try hard, some people want it easy. As long as the health factor is being taken into consideration.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I didn't read the OP as an attack on anyone in particular, or their vivariums. 

I personally believe there are two types of vivariums.. The simple ones that go side by side on a rack in a seperate room, and the more elaborate ones that are right out in the living room for every one that walks in your house to see. 

I also personally believe that most construction journals are about the construction of the second group. And these vivariums are going to be set up more visually pleasing to the eye. However, they should be set up with everyone's needs in mind. Want everyone to see your frogs? set them up so they will be the most active. 

And set the vivarium up to meet the specific frogs needs. And use suitable plants. I personally don't like backgrounds in MY terrestrial frog vivariums. The background takes away floor space, and I like a black background. 

As to the comment not everyone has a nursery close by...Welcome to the Age of the Internet. See the Plant Classifieds, Ebay, Sponsors, etc...

My only negative comment is that I see Elephant Ears that will grow 5 feet tall in Exos, which shows no planning was done. So, I am providing a link to be of some help in planning. 

Plants for Terrariums and Wardian Cases


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

I don't think that there have necessarily been a lot of "ugly" vivs posted as of late--but more a reduction in the number of truly spectacular vivariums posted. Things on this board seem to come in cycles. A couple of years ago, Arielelf posted a construction thread of an amazing "rock" vivarium built with the foam concrete method--then there were a number of equally beautiful "rock" wall vivarium threads that followed. After a bit of a lull, there were some truly spectacular clay background vivariums that were posted--and who didn't want the type of plant growth that Ed showed in his long-run clay drip wall background tank. Soon, there were a number of threads showing other clay backgrounds that were well-grown in and lush displays. Then, we were all watching two enormous display builds--both Energy's "large vivarium" construction thread, and wimvanvelzen's "wooden hill stream tank". Both of which are impressive, not only by the size, but the scope of planning and planting involved.

In between all of these (and MANY more that I haven't mentioned--so no one be offended), there have been a lot of posts of "first tank" builds and "experimental" builds--that may not have been so stunning--but were not intended to be. I know when I first started into this hobby--I wouldn't have posted pics of my first couple vivariums (nor did a lot of other folks a few years ago); but now, many new hobbyists do--and often in the quest for constructive feedback. I applaud them for doing so, and it may have saved me a lot of frustration if I had asked for some feedback earlier. So, maybe we're not seeing a glut of "ugly" vivs, but a plethora of new hobbyists seeking feedback and direction for improving their building skills?

I know I am personally guilty of building a few UGLY vivariums--and will try and refrain from doing so in the future!  I honestly have not yet built a vivarium that I am truly happy with, so much so that I've broken down a couple of my vivs recently. Maybe, just maybe, I'll not be so lazy and photograph my "remodeling" and post something someone will enjoy....


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## deboardfam (Feb 7, 2011)

I agree with a lot of what was said.. I fit most of these criteria. I am the only dart frog hobbyist within a 100 miles of here. At least that I know of. 
There are few to no local nurseries and if there are, they dont sell much. Heck I live in Kentucky where towns are populations of 8000-10000 and there isnt a large city within 100 miles as well. I use what I can get. Lowes, etc or order offline which shipping kills. I think it is more of having several tanks setup for different breeds instead of having a couple "non crap" tanks. I have also posted before on the newcomers to the hobby. It is more for the tank and the frog is an afterthought like someone stated earlier. Thats how I got into the hobby. Wanted to build a paludarium, researched what could go in it, which is little to nothing. Found darts. Researched their tanks and started going that direction. So I think the biggest factors are economy and most of all the newcomers such as myself the hobby is attracting. Luckily I do a crap ton of research before making decisions. 

Revolutions tank is amazing.. a dream. I wanted a 36" exo for my living room display to replace my 55g leuc tank. I just hope I can make it look half that good.


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

GRIMM said:


> Anyways as far as the OP goes, it could have been put a little more tactfully but I agree that a lot of fairly unremarkable vivs are posted. I think thats fine though. Thats how people get feedback and improve them both aesthetically and as far as meeting the animal's needs. Also I think we want to be a place that encourages people. If people started posting..."eh your viv is lame" or "it sucks" pretty regularly , then this forum would suck IMO


That's what my feelings are, but I have a hard time putting all of my thoughts to pen, you know? It usually takes me a couple edits to get out my ideas. My original post, was crappy and rude. All in all, my thoughts were this: Less people building for the art. that's it. Not trying to bash simple tanks or newbs or breeders or people or ones built with a tight budget. Okay?


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## travisc (Mar 30, 2009)

I think the OP could have been worded a bit differently but I think that there are quite a few vivariums posted lately that are not as asthetically pleasing. But as you will see in my photo below I cannot judge at all. I agree with with previous posts saying that “less is more” in some cases.

I have spent endless hours and have held off getting frogs because of my viv build so I feel that I am doing the right thing. I do have a custom 40g tall glass open-front viv and have racked my brain for months. I have sat and watched plants SLOWLY growing in my growout tank. I have recently placed these plants in my viv and stood back saying to myself “oh man, it looks so bare and empty in there”. I have researched each and every plant to see what it’s maximum size will get to and so on and so forth.

At some point in time, you just have to move forward. My viv has sat untouched for weeks on end at EVERY stage of construction while I researched the BEST way to proceed. When it comes to plant selection, there really isn’t a lot of posts on here simply due to the number of plants. I have nearly posted my entire plant list online and said “hey guys, where should I put all these in my viv”. Its tough to gauge how many to plant and in what general location. It’s human nature to fill a viv with plants so that it looks natural to begin with. So now, I wait…

What it boils down to is that my first viv will run me 500-600 in total cost not including time. I already know what I need to do differently on my next viv, how to approach each step and most importantly, how I NEED TO PLAN when it comes to adding a small rock formation or where I want driftwood to be placed.

As others had said, it’s an art form. The restrictions for many people are cost and artistic talent. My first viv may look amazing to some people and “total junk” to others. There is already things I want to improve with this before introducing frogs such as taking advantage of vertical space and selecting the right plants that will give it the most natural look.

It’s a work in progress and I am my own worst critic. I’ll go out on a limb and attach the photo. Here is my not-so stunning unfinished viv. It still needs broms and leaf litter and more vertical space features for the leucomelas to utilize:


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

Arpeggio said:


> That's what my feelings are, but I have a hard time putting all of my thoughts to pen, you know? It usually takes me a couple edits to get out my ideas. My original post, was crappy and rude. All in all, my thoughts were this: Less people building for the art. that's it. Not trying to bash simple tanks or newbs or breeders or people or ones built with a tight budget. Okay?


...Or severe time constraints. Balancing a family with young children while working 60-70 hours a week doesn't leave a whole lot of time for elaborate builds. But I still like to see everyones builds...the simple and the elaborate. We don't want new people to feel shame that their setup isn't worthy to be posted....that is how they learn. That is why I was so angry by this post. A new person to the hobby will read this post and not share their setup with us and if theyre doing something wrong like leaving out a drainage layer we would never be able to point it out to them. Choosing our words carefully to make sure they are constructive in a post is just as vital to the post as careful planning is to a tank.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

In my opinion, there are two key ingredients to a good vivarium. The first is size (bigger is almost always better looking).

The second, and most important, is *time*. Old vivaria look better than new.

I have some pretty "crappy" vivaria (ie they were not that great initially, just little throw-together 10s for froglets) that actually look very good now just because they have had the time to grow in adequately.

I think we see a pretty high turnover of posters here (actually, I know this to be true) and the posts of tanks are dominated by people posting their new efforts. There's nothing wrong with this, they just won't look as good now as they will a year from now.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

While we are on the subject... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/63998-10-gallon-auratus.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/62692-frogs-10-gallon.html


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

Why bring mine into the discussion? I never said mine were pretty.

I'm not trying to diss people! My contemplation was wondering why people are straying away from having a good looking tank with frogs. If it was possible, I would want to do that.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

D3monic said:


> While we are on the subject... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/63998-10-gallon-auratus.html
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/62692-frogs-10-gallon.html


I like the first one! (Especially for a 14 year old.)



Tinc natural habitat pictured.


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

Arpeggio said:


> Why bring mine into the discussion? I never said mine were pretty.
> 
> I'm not trying to diss people! My contemplation was wondering why people are straying away from having a good looking tank with frogs. If it was possible, I would want to do that.


I think what he's trying to say was that you were learning. I don't think anyone sets out to make an ugly tank or that they are "straying" away from nice ones its just that we all have a different skill level or if we have the skill level we may not have the time or money to do a master build. This is a bad economy where people are losing their jobs or homes and spending even a hundred bucks setting up a tank is just not an option for everyone. The economy crashed at the end of 2008 about the same time frame that you mentioned people have stopped doing such elaborate builds. You'll probably see a return to the glory days when people can do more discretionary spending. When you get older you'll see what I mean.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

Arpeggio said:


> Why bring mine into the discussion? I never said mine were pretty.
> 
> I'm not trying to diss people! My contemplation was wondering why people are straying away from having a good looking tank with frogs. If it was possible, I would want to do that.


Neither of those vivs are ugly bud, so no need to get defensive.

My only complaint was with your original post, that pretty much said all of the vivs you had seen recently were ugly. I disliked this, as one of the folks who recently posted pics of a new viv that I don't feel for one second is ugly.  The only one of my vivs that I consider UGLY is my citronella viv. It was nice when I did it, but I decided to rip out the purple wandering jew, and haven't bothered to replace it, or the plants it killed, yet. I've also not posted pics of it on here though. 

I am however quite willing to agree that I have seen SOME vivs that I (me personally, to others they may look lovely) found ugly, the really odd thing is all of the posts telling them how great they are, rather than either just not saying anything, or trying to help them to make it look better. I am not going to post examples as that would just be rude. By no means however has it been all, and I certainly would hope that you don't find mine ugly. I have only actually posted 2 on here if I am honest, my 40 gallong octagonal conversion http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/62933-40gallon-octagonal-conversion.html and my 40x40x60 viv that I just did recently http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/69187-couple-pics-my-latest-viv.html, neither of which I consider 'ugly' in the slightest.

As to some of the vivs posted been by newbies, some of the best vivs I have seen posted on here were by newbies. Quite often, as others have mentioned, keepers who have been doing things much longer tend to end up been very formulaic in their builds, and sometimes it's not that attractive a formula.

I however come from a background in planted aquariums and freshwater shrimp, and learned one thing above all else. Sometimes you HAVE to prioritise the needs of your animals over what pleases you. At the end of the day sometimes what we find pleasing to the eye isn't as pleasing to the animals we keep in it. Just because I love to show people my work, here's one of my tanks from way back:-










I always did refuse to go the Amano route... lol

As to time, I have plenty of that. Money, my preferred method of using polystyrene sheet, Gorilla glue and ground xaxim doesn't work out too bad, and in my opinion gives a very attractive finish.

Ade


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

I can have a little ten gal, with plastic wrap as a top and maybe some sphag moss and a little coconut hut and it would be all good....why is that you ask? Because it is what I thought was a cool tank to nake, I had some fun making it, I enjoying looking at it....and oh ya.....Because I made it for....me! 

But I get where you're coming from. If youre gonna post em, then make sure everyone will like em?


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

I think we should offer advice, or make suggestions when someone post a viv that you can tell it needs improving (Even, when not ask).. I believe we to learn to teach,while teach as we learn.That's what Dendroboard about.Just remember one's taste might be another one's waste, whom are you, or I to decided.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> I like the first one! (Especially for a 14 year old.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aw man, now that's one UGLY tank!

Seriously, what ever happened to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"? I agree that someone spent alot of time on a tank and they think it's great only to have someone say it sucks. That's just bad taste IMO


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

That picture isn't even of a tank. Which is why I said *tinc NATURAL habitat pictured*


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

And, I do not believe I have ever read a thread where the OP was told their tank was ugly.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> That picture isn't even of a tank. Which is why I said *tinc NATURAL habitat pictured*


No duh! It's called sarcasm. 

Point is, one person may not like a setup but 10 others may love it. All that matters is that the person who put it together likes it IMO.



> But now, its all crap. Its like that here too.


No there wasn't a finger pointed, but sounds like most of what he sees on here he thinks is crap.


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## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

hmm if you find the vivs ugly, go build one you like and don't comment. the end.


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

GRIMM said:


> Arpeggio, I think you just need to take a better look around. There are some amazing threads that have come out recently. Revolution's exo, Arielelf's rocky exo, Ryan's buttress tree roots, RoberthValera's antique build. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though, so maybe they arent your style...Perhaps my peninsula build is  haha
> 
> Most of the nicer tanks tend to be larger, its proven science. Frog collectors simply cant put the effort into 50 tanks as a person can put into a feature viv, and that leads to them having to pinpoint the frog's natural habitat in the small amount of space they provide (leaves and a few plants) However I dont like how the collectors try and sway everybody in thinking tiny leaf litter tanks are better then a complex plant filled viv. Its a little closed minded to their ways of doing things. I hope the hobby starts to move towards the best of both worlds. Nothing wrong with having a water feature and all the doo-dads so long as the frogs needs are met also. Thats what I'm trying to do and Im proud of it.


GRIMM i'm honored that you mentioned my thread among the "amazing threads"  My tree is alright for a first attempt, but i definitely would not call it amazing haha

I think that experience is a big factor here as well. A lot of the members on DB are new to the hobby (besides a few old froggers out there). Although some new people have a green thumb and a natural talent for pretty vivs, newcomers don't always have the experience or even the cash to make a really nice elaborate build themselves. Myself included. I'm an alright artist, and i can draw, paint, sculpt, and whatnot pretty well, but i can't hardscape worth a damn. Hopefully with practice and experience, this will change


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

npaull said:


> I think we see a pretty high turnover of posters here (actually, I know this to be true) and the posts of tanks are dominated by people posting their new efforts. There's nothing wrong with this, they just won't look as good now as they will a year from now.


Or even 3 or 4 years from now...but that might be asking for a miracle that people stick with the hobby for that long.

However, I think people are missing the REAL problem currently affecting the hobby: those criminals who throw garbage into their vivariums.

How DARE they.


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> No there wasn't a finger pointed, but sounds like most of what he sees on here he thinks is crap.


Yes but now that it has been established that the Op is 14 doesn't that put his poorly worded post into perspective? Maybe when someone feels the need to post an immature brainfart maybe they should post their age with it so we all don't get so heated. Finding out his age explained a lot for me.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> Or even 3 or 4 years from now...but that might be asking for a miracle that people stick with the hobby for that long.
> 
> However, I think people are missing the REAL problem currently affecting the hobby: those criminals who throw garbage into their vivariums.
> 
> How DARE they.



awesome idea, and beautiful tanks


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

Reading forum for about a year, looking any pictures on any pages, i've never seen any decent collection of shots from the wild, showing natural habitats divided by species.
I mean a shot (5, 10 or even 50 photo) of a rainforest where, for example, Tinctorius were found.
Think if such a collection of pictures will exist here & be sticky we all have better inspiration from nature & have an opportunity to create an enviroment that will not only suit frogs but look beautifull.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

RNKot said:


> Reading forum for about a year, looking any pictures on any pages, i've never seen any decent collection of shots from the wild, showing natural habitats divided by species.
> I mean a shot (5, 10 or even 50 photo) of a rainforest where, for example, Tinctorius were found.
> Think if such a collection of pictures will exist here & be sticky we all have better inspiration from nature & have an opportunity to create an enviroment that will not only suit frogs but look beautifull.


I thought the pictures Ray posted are a great example. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/60381-peru-trip-ue.html


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

Yes they are. But still even using Dendrobates.org - Species accounts i have no clear understanding of the habitat.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Would you believe that after looking through the Peru pics, I could not find ONE cocohut??? However, I did see some trash in pic 22...so Skylsdale has the right idea. Lol!


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## nawth21 (Apr 17, 2008)

OP is 14? *exits thread* teens hate everything anyways



Anyways, who knows. Maybe all the people with vivs you'd deem nice don't post. Or maybe there is a shift to more functional vivs. Maybe it's the economy. Maybe people don't have time. Does it matter? You're not the one who has to look at it day in and day out.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

WendySHall said:


> However, I did see some trash in pic 22...so Skylsdale has the right idea. Lol!


In the last issue of Leaf Litter, there is an article by someone who went to the coast of Colombia. In a seeming tropical paradise, the only place they found auratus tadpoles and juveniles was in piles of ocean flotsam and trash that had washed up into the forest. Bed pans, water bottles, bowls...all holding tadpoles.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

bshmerlie said:


> Yes but now that it has been established that the Op is 14 doesn't that put his poorly worded post into perspective? Maybe when someone feels the need to post an immature brainfart maybe they should post their age with it so we all don't get so heated. Finding out his age explained a lot for me.


Also realize that this was originally posted in the Thunderdome and moved out by mods. The post wasn't written with the sensitive feelings of the general population in mind.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> In the last issue of Leaf Litter, there is an article by someone who went to the coast of Colombia. In a seeming tropical paradise, the only place they found auratus tadpoles and juveniles was in piles of ocean flotsam and trash that had washed up into the forest. Bed pans, water bottles, bowls...all holding tadpoles.


This world is turning into a sad, sad place.



phender said:


> Also realize that this was originally posted in the Thunderdome and moved out by mods. The post wasn't written with the sensitive feelings of the general population in mind.


Even more proof of what this world is coming to. No one takes the time to teach their children the virtue of politeness and when to hold their tongue.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

WendySHall said:


> Even more proof of what this world is coming to. No one takes the time to teach their children the virtue of politeness and when to hold their tongue.


I think you missed my point. The whole point of the thunderdome is that you don't have to watch your tone or be polite. He posted his observation in the thunderdome. To hold him accountable for his post being rude when someone else moved it out of the thunderdome is unfair in my opinion.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

And said Mod also wonders why a 14 year old is hanging out in TDome.

s


phender said:


> Also realize that this was originally posted in the Thunderdome and moved out by mods. The post wasn't written with the sensitive feelings of the general population in mind.


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## qiksilver5 (Jan 9, 2007)

WendySHall said:


> Even more proof of what this world is coming to. No one takes the time to teach their children the virtue of politeness and when to hold their tongue.


You have got to be kidding me. Get off your pedestal, maybe someone should have taught you to be polite as well.

He's not saying everyone has to be the Takashi Amano of dart frogs, he merely asked a question whether the hobby was moving towards functional tanks rather than artistic. Granted it could have been worded better, but your response is more inappropriate than his question.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Folks should just calm down. I honestly don't know why the OP's age was even called into question. Who cares?

It still comes down to pretty much random strangers saying things about your viv on the internet. Who cares? If you happy with it, don't let someone whom you don't even know, ruin your sense of accomplishment.

Personally, I have noticed a lot less of the artistic side of things, which is disappointing to me. I've seen breeders who have tanks that are pure function and no artistic quality. They're so functional, to the point, that the glass gets covered in algae and you can't even see inside. At that point, I don't see why one would even bother having plants. Just toss in some coco huts and film canisters. And if that's your prerogative, so be it, but personally, I don't see why you would build a viv for the purpose of just being a functional if the purpose is to look at it. Might as well try to make it look visually appealing as well as functional.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

phender said:


> I think you missed my point. The whole point of the thunderdome is that you don't have to watch your tone or be polite. He posted his observation in the thunderdome. To hold him accountable for his post being rude when someone else moved it out of the thunderdome is unfair in my opinion.


Ack! You're right...I totally missed something. Rereading my reply now makes no sense. Thunderdome was definitely the place for his original post.



qiksilver5 said:


> You have got to be kidding me. Get off your pedestal, maybe someone should have taught you to be polite as well.
> 
> He's not saying everyone has to be the Takashi Amano of dart frogs, he merely asked a question whether the hobby was moving towards functional tanks rather than artistic. Granted it could have been worded better, but your response is more inappropriate than his question.


I'm absolutely not on a pedestal of any kind. I totally believe that tact and politeness are being forgotten. As your post shows, it's not just the children.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

I'm thinking the OP just isn't looking hard enough. There are plenty of great looking tanks on the forum. There are also a lot of newbies as the forum gets more and more popular, so it's harder to find the real gems.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Disagreed.

Thunderdome is not the place for 14 year old kids to hang out. Period.

This is a frog topic also - it could certainly have been written up a bit better, but it's a frog topic.

I do believe TDome is politics/religion/really out there stuff. This is a frog topic - it should be in frog territory. 

s


WendySHall said:


> Ack! You're right...I totally missed something. Rereading my reply now makes no sense. Thunderdome was definitely the place for his original post.
> 
> I'm absolutely not on a pedestal of any kind. I totally believe that tact and politeness are being forgotten. As your post shows, it's not just the children.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'll agree with this. We rarely have vets doing the "build process".

I've been in the hobby for a long time - and I only recently did anything remotely close to a build process, and that was because I was starting from scratch.

I'd love to have my tanks grow in a bit more so I can show the final result. I keep giving plant cuttings away though. 

s


VicSkimmr said:


> I'm thinking the OP just isn't looking hard enough. There are plenty of great looking tanks on the forum. There are also a lot of newbies as the forum gets more and more popular, so it's harder to find the real gems.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

With the exception of the tanks in my living room, ALL of my tanks look pretty "sh**ty" at least superficially but it's intentional now. Many of my frogs live in rubbermaid bins too 

Upon closer observation, one will notice that the soil in older enclosures with leaf mould developing is beautiful. Why? Because the soil is starting to take on characteristics of what would happen in a real system and my mantellas produce their best, largest clutches of healthy tadpoles when the substrate is aged correctly. So, from the frogs' perspective, it's perfect. The soil is also ripe with microfauna which is why I'm going to experiment with compost from my pile outdoors and innoculate froglet enclosures with it.

The more I just piled leaf litter and put a few broadleaf plants that took over the enclosure, the more the mantellas felt like it was home.

My tincs used to live in an overgrown, ugly tank but they produced healthy eggs and now every clutch goes bad. My pair likes to lay on broadleaves and this new tank doesn't have as much philodendron like it used to. 

It's very subjective what is "ugly and looks like crap" and you are free to hold that opinion. Also, when I used to spend a lot of time and money on just tank design, like a year later when I had to move my frogs for various reasons I ended up just wasting time and money when the frogs don't give a damn at all. I once spent several hundred dollars on a few tanks and it turned out I couldn't even use the tanks in the end. Many of the compact fluorescent fixtures I had were taken apart because they threw out too much heat-- more money wasted. I learned the hard way by wasting probably a thousand dollars or so that could have been spent on just acquiring more individual animals for my "herd." If you truly have a passion for frogs, you'll best serve their interests and not just your own.  Plus, the reason why we're making tanks is to enjoy keeping frogs. If you really have a passion for tropical plants, invest in a small greenhouse because it would be a LOT cheaper than many display tanks. At least for me, it turned out serving the interests of the frogs proved to be cheaper and less stressful for me, so I was doing myself a favor too.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

MonarchzMan said:


> Personally, I have noticed a lot less of the artistic side of things, which is disappointing to me. I've seen breeders who have tanks that are pure function and no artistic quality. They're so functional, to the point, that the glass gets covered in algae and you can't even see inside. At that point, I don't see why one would even bother having plants. Just toss in some coco huts and film canisters. And if that's your prerogative, so be it, but personally, I don't see why you would build a viv for the purpose of just being a functional if the purpose is to look at it. Might as well try to make it look visually appealing as well as functional.


Bang on bud. To me, the love of frogs should corespond equally to the love of nature as a whole. That being the case, Im surprised having a nice tank to compliment the frogs isnt something everyone strives for. Plus the sense of pride to be able to say "I made that" is what I really enjoy.

It boils down to this....Do you want to be known as the crazy frog man, or the dude with super sweet tropical tanks?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> It boils down to this....Do you want to be known as the crazy frog man, or the dude with super sweet tropical tanks?


I think the crazy frog man reputation develops just by a visitor coming in and seeing rows of tanks. 

When I have non frog people come over, their attention is mostly on the animals and not the enclosure. When frog people come over, they seem to want to see the "whole setup" and not just the frogs


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

ITS FUNCTION OVER FORM IF YOU ARE A LARGE SCALE BREEDER. Do you think someone with 100 tanks has room for 100 show tanks? not a chance. 

Also, some vivs look way better in person and don't photograph well at all, I think hexagonal vivs are the hardest to photograph well, and thats all I have, so I dont post full tank shots, just selected images from within.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Scott said:


> Disagreed.
> 
> Thunderdome is not the place for 14 year old kids to hang out. Period.
> 
> ...


Okay...let me correct myself again. 
Absolutely Thunderdome is no place for children. Heck "I" won't even post there! Lol! But the post the way it is written elicits responses similar to the ones found in Thunderdome...hence the Thunderdome connection. I think this is a good topic for general discussion, but would be more suitable (and less emotional) if it were written a little tactfully.


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## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

WendySHall said:


> Even more proof of what this world is coming to. No one takes the time to teach their children the virtue of politeness and when to hold their tongue.


if i had a nickel for every time an adult was extremely rude to a "kid" simple for being younger, i would be rich.

the fact is, lots of adults are very rude to younger people based solely on age. this includes you.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Scott said:


> Disagreed.
> 
> Thunderdome is not the place for 14 year old kids to hang out. Period.
> 
> ...


Would "Create a new Colormorph name, double your profits" not also be a frog topic? 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/th...-new-colormorph-name-double-your-profits.html


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> if i had a nickel for every time an adult was extremely rude to a "kid" simple for being younger, i would be rich.
> 
> the fact is, lots of adults are very rude to younger people based solely on age. this includes you.


kids aren't really people,though. just a step above the primates with their little sticky hands and pungent aroma of sour cheese


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

Think Arpeggio got a lesson to select words more carefully, hope you will learn the lesson  We all do mistakes, this one can be corrected.
Welcome to the real world, yes we'r bearded & will troll anyone who moves 

As for me, I'll plan my next biuld more scrupulously, to do best for frogs & looks aesthetic.


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## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> kids aren't really people,though. just a step above the primates with their little sticky hands and pungent aroma of sour cheese


how dare you!  lol.. well i guess that is kind of true...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That falls in to controversial. In my opinion anyhow (certainly is political, no doubt about that  ).

s


frogface said:


> Would "Create a new Colormorph name, double your profits" not also be a frog topic?
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/th...-new-colormorph-name-double-your-profits.html


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I think an "ugly" viv is one that has lost its connection with the natural habitat that it is supposed to replicate. Big tanks and tiny ones can be equally ugly or beautiful, size has no difference. The factor that defines the vivs beauty is the balance of things inside it, no matter the size. Natural balance is the reason why a perfect looking habitat is so easy to find in the wild but seldom achieved in the vivarium. Being out of balance defines the term "ugly". What makes a house, a car, or even a person ugly? Balance and proportion.

You can build a habitat in almost any size container, but above all the whole system must be in scale with its components. For instance, a tree buttress will not look realistic if scaled down to a very small enclosure such as a ten gallon. You could do a small part of a tree trunk or crevice in that amount of space, but everything comes down to scale and natural balance. One method for getting an idea of scale and proportion is to go outside and visit various natural habitats. If your goal is a mossy, boulder strewn stream-side; then take a tape measure and use it to get a realistic idea of how big an area of space is needed to achieve the look. Start to put a mental “frame” around natural scenes, and vision those images in an enclosure. Another great way is to take lots of photos of habitat close-ups.

These all help in creating a tank that looks natural, and subsequently "beautiful". You have to step back and ask yourself if the tank looks identical to what could be seen in the wild down to the tiniest details.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

I just want to pick up on a comment made here, that vivariums are becoming "less artistic". Is that a BAD thing, I mean really? I can tell the OP EXACTLY why aquariums have stopped been quite as 'artistic', it's because the aquarium hobby has shifted more towards biotope aquariums. I love planted tanks, as you may have noticed, however a biotope is going to be a LOT better for the inhabitants than say a Sanzo Iwagumi designed to make the fish look like birds flying over a rocky mountain range....

Me, I tend to object more when a hobby takes a swing towards been MORE about 'art', as then it stop been about keeping the livestock happy, more about "painting a picture upon a natural canvas", or as I like to call it, flower arranging.

All that said however, I do feel that as dart frog keepers we have 2 choices. Design our tanks ENTIRELY to suit the frogs (Escudo viv packed with diefenbachia anybody?), or try to strike a balance between the needs of our frogs and pleasing our own eyes (which I believe MOST of us do do). Both of these are absolutely fine, I will start ranting if I DO see dart frog viv builders start trying to duplicate Amano/Oliver Knott styles in dart tanks, I mean, do you really want to see some black and white blotched frogs in a tank full of neatly mowed 'grass'? That is after all what happened in the planted tank hobby, along with piling in lots of chemicals that the animals didn't really enjoy, making fish feel stressed constantly so that they would school more tightly, putting shrimp in water that they didn't really like so they would turn blue....

Seriously, I'd rather see an 'ugly' viv than these artificial monstrosities start showing up in this hobby too. As others have also said, sometimes an 'ugly' viv grows into a lovely one given time. I've done it myself, my Alanis viv went from this:-










to this:-








(It's grown even more since this was taken, and has Clumbian ficus growing on the left side)

So don't be too fast to judge a new viv.

Ade


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

frogparty said:


> ITS FUNCTION OVER FORM IF YOU ARE A LARGE SCALE BREEDER. Do you think someone with 100 tanks has room for 100 show tanks? not a chance.
> 
> Also, some vivs look way better in person and don't photograph well at all, I think hexagonal vivs are the hardest to photograph well, and thats all I have, so I dont post full tank shots, just selected images from within.


Most breeder's with 100 tanks don't post a build thread on those tanks. The room maybe, or the rack, but not usually the tank.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

RNKot said:


> Think Arpeggio got a lesson to select words more carefully, hope you will learn the lesson  We all do mistakes, this one can be corrected.


I absolutely agree. I think once he saw the responses he was getting he realized his error. 

But, honestly...this is getting ridiculous. I like Arpeggio as well as all of the kids involved on this board. I think it's great that they're here. My comment was towards the decline in people caring about the feelings of others. I wasn't necessarily singling him out, but yes, I was using his post as an example of that. What is acceptable in society is declining with every generation. 

I've posted every comment I made in this thread below for reference, because the couple of pm's I'm getting are ridiculous. To clear a few things up...

---I think everyone should take the feelings of others into consideration...adults and children.

---I did not tell Arpeggio to shut up.

---I did not tell Arpeggio not to speak on a public forum.

---I do not think my post was "wildly inappropriate".

---I had nothing to do with the thread being moved from Thunderdome...the admin did decide and didn't ask for my opinion first. 

So...that's it for me. This has gotten too crazy. You can read too much into someone else's comments and fight with them. I'm outta here.

---------------------------------------------------------------


WendySHall said:


> Would you believe that after looking through the Peru pics, I could not find ONE cocohut??? However, I did see some trash in pic 22...so Skylsdale has the right idea. Lol!





WendySHall said:


> This world is turning into a sad, sad place.
> 
> 
> Even more proof of what this world is coming to. No one takes the time to teach their children the virtue of politeness and when to hold their tongue.





WendySHall said:


> Ack! You're right...I totally missed something. Rereading my reply now makes no sense. Thunderdome was definitely the place for his original post.
> 
> 
> I'm absolutely not on a pedestal of any kind. I totally believe that tact and politeness are being forgotten. As your post shows, it's not just the children.





WendySHall said:


> Okay...let me correct myself again.
> Absolutely Thunderdome is no place for children. Heck "I" won't even post there! Lol! But the post the way it is written elicits responses similar to the ones found in Thunderdome...hence the Thunderdome connection. I think this is a good topic for general discussion, but would be more suitable (and less emotional) if it were written a little tactfully.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> I just want to pick up on a comment made here, that vivariums are becoming "less artistic". Is that a BAD thing, I mean really? I can tell the OP EXACTLY why aquariums have stopped been quite as 'artistic', it's because the aquarium hobby has shifted more towards biotope aquariums. I love planted tanks, as you may have noticed, however a biotope is going to be a LOT better for the inhabitants than say a Sanzo Iwagumi designed to make the fish look like birds flying over a rocky mountain range....
> 
> Me, I tend to object more when a hobby takes a swing towards been MORE about 'art', as then it stop been about keeping the livestock happy, more about "painting a picture upon a natural canvas", or as I like to call it, flower arranging.
> 
> ...



I share this view wholeheartedly. People tout their "natural" terrariums and aquariums, with unnatural numbers of species, with everything perfectly sculpted. The nature aquarium hobby has taken it to a completely different level of unnatural, and I think that it's really losing sight of what "natural" really is. Nature isn't always gorgeous, especially when confined to the dimensions of a typical tank.

As previously suggested, I LOVE going out into wilderness areas and seeing what exactly looks good in a given space. What looks "real". I also like to research for pictures of native habitats of the species in question, and see what they look like.

Also, I agree with the statement that sometimes tanks just don't photograph well. This is my new pumilio tank, and I cannot get a good picture without the top half of the tank whiting out from the reflections off of the plants, and I cannot get it to show the 3-dimensional effect, as the cluster of bromeliads creates a near continuous level across the tank. It's supposed to simulate a fallen cluster of bromeliads (actually, that's exactly what it was when I bought it!). I had individual CFL bulbs, to give it a dappled light effect, as if it were coming through the trees, but they were giving me problems with heat.


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## Bananaman (Mar 21, 2009)

WendySHall said:


> Even more proof of what this world is coming to. No one takes the time to teach their children the virtue of politeness and when to hold their tongue.


Wow, I normally don't post anything negative but I thought this was a pretty ridiculous assumption to make based on one post a 14 year old makes on a frog forum. Assuming/attacking him and his parent/s teachings when you no nothing about them is devoid of any wisdom whatsoever regardless of age. Maybe people should be more accepting, more understanding, and less judgmental towards others (especially when they are complete strangers) and then maybe the world would be a better place. Arpeggio commented on a trend he was noticing and posted it in the TD... He realized he made a mistake and apologized in his following posts yet db members continue to be offended and comment on his mistake. His mistake which he acknowledged! I know grown men who can't admit their wrong let alone many of the "adults" I see arguing on this site.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Scott said:


> Disagreed.
> 
> Thunderdome is not the place for 14 year old kids to hang out. Period.
> 
> ...


Is there a disclaimer about the sort of content in the TD, and why such ages aren't allowed to log in? If not, how would they know any better?
I have brought this up before---it's something like what YouTube does---you can't click on certain vids if you're not 18...

That being said, the ugly vivs are the breeding vivs--they do not need to be flashy to be a good place for frogs to lay eggs. I have one such 'ugly' viv. The show tanks are to advertise your frogs to your friends or just to ogle.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

earthfrog said:


> Is there a disclaimer about the sort of content in the TD, and why such ages aren't allowed to log in? If not, how would they know any better?












Yeah there is a warning.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok I just logged out and back in and had to re-enter the PW to Thunderdome. I didn't see anything asking my age.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Let's be honest the age thing will not stop anyone. Kid's are not stupid, if they want to see the content they will simply enter in an older age like they do on youtube, video game, and porn sites.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

tachikoma said:


> Yeah there is a warning.


I know about that. I meant in reference to someone 14 or younger.



tachikoma said:


> Let's be honest the age thing will not stop anyone. Kid's are not stupid, if they want to see the content they will simply enter in an older age like they do on youtube, video game, and porn sites.


When I worked for Nielsen they had to get parental consent in order to show a minor something questionable---think it had to do with the law in some regards, and the liability of the entity hosting the material. If it were up to me there would not be racy discussions for kids to view, but at least we could put a disclaimer on there for the kids who surf with supervision.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I haven't really seen anything in the TD that would scar a 14 year old. Think back, you old fogeys, really. Anything in there that would have fazed you at 14?


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

frogface said:


> I haven't really seen anything in the TD that would scar a 14 year old. Think back, you old fogeys, really. Anything in there that would have fazed you at 14?


Not at all.


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## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

frogface said:


> I haven't really seen anything in the TD that would scar a 14 year old. Think back, you old fogeys, really. Anything in there that would have fazed you at 14?


by the end of grade 6 most kids have seen a lot worse than the stuff in the thunderdome.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yea, I'd give it a PG-13 rating at the most.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Froglet growout viv I slapped together in less than a hour...ugly?










Freshly planted Benedicta and Reticulata vivs ...ugly?



















Ok ok, my Vanzo viv is ugly and its driving me nuts!


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

For some reason this thread makes me think of Grace Jones:








Beautiful to some, ugly to others.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Wallace Grover said:


> For some reason this thread makes me think of Grace Jones:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, now thats ugly!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Ok, now thats ugly!


Any uglier than 11 pages of argument over this topic?


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Is that the chick from Conan?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I believe so....hard to forget that kind of ugly


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I once read that plucking one's eyebrows that thin tells the world you are monstrously hairy 
Also, the eye shadow looks like a bruise.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> I just want to pick up on a comment made here, that vivariums are becoming "less artistic". Is that a BAD thing, I mean really? I can tell the OP EXACTLY why aquariums have stopped been quite as 'artistic', it's because the aquarium hobby has shifted more towards biotope aquariums. I love planted tanks, as you may have noticed, however a biotope is going to be a LOT better for the inhabitants than say a Sanzo Iwagumi designed to make the fish look like birds flying over a rocky mountain range....


I'm thinking maybe you misunderstand what people mean by tanks being less "artsy." 

It's not about creating something that looks unnatural, it's about using artistic qualities to turn your vivarium into a living piece of art. Using good positive and negative space, placing your plants so that they don't grow together to become a tangled mess and looking too busy, using wood not just as a surface to mount plants on, but as a good accent piece to all the green that surrounds it. Avoiding straight lines, making sure the plants you choose will grow out in the way you want them to, etc etc. The biotopes I've seen on this forum are generally some of the best looking vivariums I've seen from an artistic standpoint.

_Any_ vivarium can look great, even ones that are just tossed together for breeding.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

VicSkimmr said:


> I'm thinking maybe you misunderstand what people mean by tanks being less "artsy."
> 
> It's not about creating something that looks unnatural, it's about using artistic qualities to turn your vivarium into a living piece of art. Using good positive and negative space, placing your plants so that they don't grow together to become a tangled mess and looking too busy, using wood not just as a surface to mount plants on, but as a good accent piece to all the green that surrounds it. Avoiding straight lines, making sure the plants you choose will grow out in the way you want them to, etc etc. The biotopes I've seen on this forum are generally some of the best looking vivariums I've seen from an artistic standpoint.
> 
> _Any_ vivarium can look great, even ones that are just tossed together for breeding.



Not for one moment Jason, I just know what happens in a hobby when folks start seeing their tanks as a piece of art, and seriously don't want to see this happen in this hobby too.

Seriously, go away and actually look at some of those Takashi Amano tanks, or ones inspired by them. Ok many ARE gorgeous whilst still be good for the fish and invertebrates. A heck of a lot more though are actually really bad for the livestock, and usually have to be torn down after a maximum of 2 years thanks to the products used to get those looks. By the by, I was in the planted tank hobby for about 15 years, and at first was excited about the changes, until I saw where they were going.

Start seeing your tank as a piece of art and pretty quickly you will find yourself talking about the rule of 3s, etc etc etc. If you rearead my post I even said that there is NOTHING wrong with striking a balance, heck I try to myself. What is bad is if you start looking at them solely from the perspective of art, as then it becomes flower arranging. Your vivarium is NOT a living piece of art, it's the hope of those little froggies in there, and they should ALWAYS be your priority, not just a brush stroke on a larger canvas.

Oh and by the way, you wont see a TRUE biotope on this site. lol You would need a viv about the size of a large house to do that, or enjoy a viv that consisted of a big rock and an aechemia just as an example.  What you will see is approximations of a biotope. 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a vivarium shouldn't be beautiful and pleasing to the eye. What I AM saying is that this should not be the priority, not unless you intend to just keep a TERRARIUM without animals.

There will always be people out there though who just pretend to care about the animals, when all they really give a hoot about is having something "cool".

Ade


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Wolfenrook said:


> Not for one moment Jason, I just know what happens in a hobby when folks start seeing their tanks as a piece of art, and seriously don't want to see this happen in this hobby too.
> 
> Seriously, go away and actually look at some of those Takashi Amano tanks, or ones inspired by them. Ok many ARE gorgeous whilst still be good for the fish and invertebrates. A heck of a lot more though are actually really bad for the livestock, and usually have to be torn down after a maximum of 2 years thanks to the products used to get those looks. By the by, I was in the planted tank hobby for about 15 years, and at first was excited about the changes, until I saw where they were going.
> 
> ...


Sorry Wolfen, I completely agree with Vik on this one. A frog couldnt give a fruit flies ass as far as the way a tank looks. They dont care weather or not a tank has been hardscaped using the rule of thirds, if the plants are placed in visually pleasing spots with appropriat sizes, or if the angles all flow and work in harmony together or not. If the frogs are given hiding spots, leafes to roam in, places to climb, and microfauna to eat, how does it matter how visually stunning the tank is? I guarantee you that the best looking tanks can also be some of the most successful. Just look at the precise and meticulous way the europeans hardscape and plant their tanks.

...or even the tanks posted by Demonic. They have everything a frogs needs, yet still look amazing.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Wolfenrook said:


> Start seeing your tank as a piece of art and pretty quickly you will find yourself talking about the rule of 3s, etc etc etc. If you rearead my post I even said that there is NOTHING wrong with striking a balance, heck I try to myself. What is bad is if you start looking at them solely from the perspective of art, as then it becomes flower arranging. Your vivarium is NOT a living piece of art, it's the hope of those little froggies in there, and they should ALWAYS be your priority, not just a brush stroke on a larger canvas.
> 
> Ade


You act like the 2 are mutually exclusive. I most certainly do view all of my vivariums are living works of art, and I'll arrange my flowers any which way I please. The frogs obviously don't give a rats ass where the plants are as long as they have places to hide, areas to raise their young and flies to eat, so why not take the time to make it look good?

I really don't understand the argument of "put the frogs first." This isn't rocket science. You can provide a suitable habitat for the frogs in a rubbermaid container, so why argue against people taking the time to put something visually stunning together for the frogs?


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

You 2 should both spend some time rereading my posts, properly this time, as I don't intend to try to argue something that I never actually said.

Regards.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Apparently I'm not getting it then. Do you have an example of a vivarium where the well-being of the frogs has been compromised by the tank being too artsy?


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

VicSkimmr said:


> Apparently I'm not getting it then. Do you have an example of a vivarium where the well-being of the frogs has been compromised by the tank being too artsy?


I actually have a dadaist inspired enclosure incorporating flame throwers and an animatronic fish


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I actually have a dadaist inspired enclosure incorporating flame throwers and an animatronic fish


you sure thats not a tool concert inspired viv?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

VicSkimmr said:


> Apparently I'm not getting it then. Do you have an example of a vivarium where the well-being of the frogs has been compromised by the tank being too artsy?


My tank has begonias from all over the world in it as well as mostly covered in green moss with a leaf pile here and there. There are also some Chinese decorations in there---dragon figurines and statuettes. 
As of late my frogs have been delusional, darting around aimlessly without any discernable motive or purpose. It is likely cultural shock syndrome. 

Anyone know a good amphibian psychologist?


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## curry76 (Sep 23, 2008)

Long time lurker here...






...I think threads like these, along with some of the comments posted, are the reason MANY people think this forum has a 'High and Mighty' attitude.


What purpose does a thread like this serve?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

curry76 said:


> Long time lurker here...
> 
> 
> ...I think threads like these, along with some of the comments posted, are the reason MANY people think this forum has a 'High and Mighty' attitude.
> ...


Frankly, the high and mighty folks exist in most every dart frog forum, there's no getting away from it. Some just like to make it easier with a bit of comic relief. You learn to let it roll off your back, or move on, but this does not condone bullying, which should be squashed lest it poison the culture of any group. 
It did bring out some good points (though not many), so it wasn't all bad.


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## Uniceros (Mar 19, 2011)

"art" is about arranging things properly. It means using your materials to get a good composition with the qualities of those materials. It doesn't mean unnatural or artificial. As long as you have the ingredients for a good frog environment, I say be as artistic as you want! More power to you if you want to limit yourself to a glass box with rotting leaves, chunks of wood piled in and a few deposition sites, but I'm going to arrange all of my frog-satisfactory materials to MY liking, because I have to stare at it.

It's WHAT you use that matters. Arrange to your liking while meeting the inhabitants needs.

It's not high and mighty to arrange things neatly.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

If I could bring things back to the OP's original question for a moment:

'Cause they look like your MOM.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

OP, I have to agree with you on this because I was thinking the same thing a few months ago... Years ago when I was a lurker on this forum, it seemed like every vivarium picture on this forum was above museum quality in my eyes. I joined the forum with the intent to learn from the masters and make something similar for myself. Other interests and college kept me from getting frogs until last year but during that time I would still visit the forum just to look at the pictures. I built a few tanks as I moved from place to place, but none of them really looked good to me until I made my 10 gallon for my imitators. Ive made a few more tanks since then and started wondering the same thing you said. But after I thought about it for a while I realized that it was because there have always been lots of posts about newer hobbyists showing off their first tank, or people posting pictures of quick throw togethers because they got the gotta catch them all mentality, or people posting a work in progress/non-grown in tank. Not every post has a great tank, but ive noticed that the people posting them either post better tanks some time later in a different thread, which shows that they have gotten some more practice. Or I see a tank grown in that in its baby pictures looked plain, but just months later is amazing. After some thought, I realized that there were always 10 not so interesting tank threads posted for every 1 amazing tank thread. The good ones just stuck out in my mind more. In a few months, try revisiting the threads you thought wernt so good and ask for an update. Alot of times the updated picture looks alot better than you would expect. Dont worry too much about people getting bent out of shape over this thread, it happens. And kudos to everyone who kept a level head and brought real discussion to the thread.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

D3monic said:


> Froglet growout viv I slapped together in less than a hour...ugly?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


man,sweet vivs,wish i had that much money,i like the vanzo viv


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

curry76 said:


> Long time lurker here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you`ve been a member here for 3 years with 7 posts... what purpose does that serve?

John


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## Adven2er (Aug 17, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> I know about that. I meant in reference to someone 14 or younger.
> 
> 
> 
> When I worked for Nielsen they had to get parental consent in order to show a minor something questionable---think it had to do with the law in some regards, and the liability of the entity hosting the material. If it were up to me there would not be racy discussions for kids to view, but at least we could put a disclaimer on there for the kids who surf with supervision.



From the user agreement:

The individual is a person, above the age of 17 with the capacity to consent to this User Agreement.


Individuals between 14 and 17 years of age may be members of DB under the following conditions. As per the TITLE XVII of the CHILDREN'S INTERNET PROTECTION Act, if the individual is under the age of 18, the parents/guardians of the individual must contact DB.s owner before registration. DB will complete the necessary documentation and then complete the registration for this minor individual.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Adven2er said:


> From the user agreement:
> 
> The individual is a person, above the age of 17 with the capacity to consent to this User Agreement.
> 
> ...


I have read that part. I was referring to the viewing of questionable content without a specific content disclaimer (such as what the TV/movie ratings are). I know there are innumerable sites out there with such content but it's nice to know that kids are protected by at least a warning (such as that on YouTube).


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

D3monic said:


> Froglet growout viv I slapped together in less than a hour...ugly?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you trying to prove his point for him?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Adven2er said:


> Individuals between 14 and 17 years of age may be members of DB under the following conditions. As per the TITLE XVII of the CHILDREN'S INTERNET PROTECTION Act, if the individual is under the age of 18, the parents/guardians of the individual must contact DB.s owner before registration. DB will complete the necessary documentation and then complete the registration for this minor individual.


hm...i didnt have to do that when i started on here at 17.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

thedude said:


> hm...i didnt have to do that when i started on here at 17.


See, that's my point, if there's no screen prompt for it, there's no benefit or use in even putting it in the bylaws as it protects neither the site or the users.


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## LookinRound (May 1, 2011)

earthfrog said:


> See, that's my point, if there's no screen prompt for it, there's no benefit or use in even putting it in the bylaws as it protects neither the site or the users.


I see little point in doing more. This site isn't bad. Adding that won't accomplish anything. The parents that would care already are paying attention to what their children are doing. Those that don't won't care anyways and that prompt would just be ignored and gone around regardless. All it'll be is a useless inconvenience.


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## gatobacon (Jul 28, 2009)

IMO: a vivarium should mimic nature, that's whats best for the frogs, nature is beautiful.. therefore, so your viv should be made to be beautiful, or nature-like.

why not create something that is functional and aesthetically pleasing all while striving to recreate the conditions seen in your frogs natural habitat. 

with proper planning even a beginner's vivarium can look like a pro's.


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## roxrgneiss (Sep 30, 2007)

Not only is the topic interesting to me, but I happen to agree with almost all the posts I've read, regardless of what the poster's perspective appeared to be.

The reason I think is this: This is a subject with many perspectives included, because we are actually discussing two or more different hobbies (in my opinion). There is a curve with a frog hobby on one end and a terrarium hobby on the other. The plant hobby adds a further element. I think there may even be a natural habitat purist hobby growing too.

Although forum is dedicated to frogs, there are varying degrees of hobby overlap for the individual hobbyist. If you are more dedicated to frogs or plants or terrariums themselves, this may not be as obvious, because your goals are going to be further from the central overlap.

I think this accounts for the variation in designs and visual outcomes more than space (as Josh already mentioned) or money or enthusiasm. 

So, to those who feel there is a hard and fast method for making the best tanks, consider that we are not all here for exactly the same reasons and we do not (and cannot) all have the same perspective on what makes a 'viv' pleasing to the eye. Enjoy the hobby(s) in your own way.

Mike


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

roxrgneiss said:


> Not only is the topic interesting to me, but I happen to agree with almost all the posts I've read, regardless of what the poster's perspective appeared to be.
> 
> The reason I think is this: This is a subject with many perspectives included, because we are actually discussing two or more different hobbies (in my opinion). There is a curve with a frog hobby on one end and a terrarium hobby on the other. The plant hobby adds a further element. I think there may even be a natural habitat purist hobby growing too.
> 
> ...


This hit the nail on the head perfectly


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