# Please post pictures of your 10 gallon horizontals...



## Poison (Apr 21, 2009)

Hi! I'm new here, and very interested in dendros.

I am very short on cash right now, so I doubt I'll be getting any froglets any time soon, but I am researching in the mean time, and would like to start playing around with my future vivarium.

Could you guys please post pictures of your 10 gallon horizontal's? (please also note what you are keeping in there!)

Full tank shots preferred.

Thanks!

-Poison


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

It's probably a better idea to go with a ten gallon vert, they have a lot more species potential than horizontals, as most terrestrials that would prefer a horizontal viv are too large to comfortably fit in a 10 gallon tank.


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## Poison (Apr 21, 2009)

( all I have is a 10 gallon horizontal, so anything else is simply not an option )


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## AFHokie03 (Mar 9, 2007)

Poison,
If you have an empty 10 gallon horizontal you also have a vertical. A 10 vert is just a standard 10 gal aquarium stood on end. You can find many threads about how to make doors for them or you can buy them from Dane at Welcome to Junglebox Online!. If you search throught the threads you will find tons of pics and construction journals on 10 verts, but very few on 10 horizontals because, as bobberly said, they are limited in what you can keep in them.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Here is one of my 10g horizontals. Right now i just added plants and everything to right now i dont have any frogs in it. When i get frogs ill probably put 2 luecs in it until i get my 55g going, than ill move the luecs in there and put something else in the 10g, hope you like it.


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

Like AFHokie03 said, if you have a 10g "horizontal" you have a 10g vert. It's just some pretty simple modifications that you do to the 10g, their are also conversion kits if you want to make sure everything is perfect and easy.

If not, and you decide to convert it to a vert completely by yourself... this thread might be of use to you: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/27889-making-pdf-vertical-tank.html

I am not trying to change your mind into making a 10g vert, but like others have said before me a 10g horizontal just won't cut it for most frogs.

Good Luck with your choice!


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2009)

A pair of azurus or auras should do OK in a 10 gallon horizontal, shouldn't they? They are both terrestials...


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Yeah azurues should be okay in the 10g horizontal.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Venom said:


> A pair of azurus or auras should do OK in a 10 gallon horizontal, shouldn't they? They are both terrestials...


No. Both of those species need at least 10g of space per frog (based on available floor space and not really on the actual number of gallons). A 10g tank oriented horizontally has 200 square inches of floor space (if my math is correct ). You are correct that they are both terrestrial, but that doesn't changed the fact that your 10g is only big enough for one frog of any tinctorius, azureus, galactonotus, terribilis, or auratus. You can get a 20L (L=long) cheap from many places such as craigslist, the local paper, or yard/garage sales. It's a pretty common tank size that's inexpensive, and then you can use your 10g for a quarantine tank. I have about a dozen spare 10g tanks that I plan to keep around for quarantine, froglet grow-out tanks, and tank for growing plant cuttings. Just because you can't put the frogs you want in them doesn't mean they aren't effective for other fun things .

Also.... pardon me for being cheeky but you didn't need to change your screen name to get an answer .


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

A 10 gallon would be okay for a pair as froglets but they will most definately need more space in time, 20 or more gallons IMO.


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

heatfreakk3 said:


> Yeah azurues should be okay in the 10g horizontal.


While they may be okay for their first few months, I would have a minimum of 10 gallons per frogs as adults.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh i heard a 10g horizontal could have 2 frogs in it. Frogglet and adult. Imo i thought you could have 2 frogs in a 10g


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

heatfreakk3 said:


> Oh i heard a 10g horizontal could have 2 frogs in it. Frogglet and adult. Imo i thought you could have 2 frogs in a 10g


It's not going to kill them, but I wouldn't reccommend confining 2 of the larger species like auratus and especially azureus in a 10 gallong viv. A pair of thumbnails would be fine in a 10 gallon, and you can probably even keep azureus froglets and juvies in a 10 gallon for a while. I have even kept a breeding pair of auratus in a 10 gallon for almost a year with little ill affect. I'm just saying, it's probably not a "best practice" to house 2 adult azureus in a 10 gallon. If all you have is a 10 gallon, I would go with thumbnails. If you really want azureus, why not give them the space and a beautiful viv to enjoy?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

heatfreakk3 said:


> Oh i heard a 10g horizontal could have 2 frogs in it. Frogglet and adult. Imo i thought you could have 2 frogs in a 10g


Chris,

Do you think it's ok to have an adult frog and a froglet in a 10 gallon viv?

Please supply a lengthy answer.

I don't mind taking the time to discuss this with you and help you, but I am really getting discouraged by your lack of knowledge progression up to now.

EDIT*** Sorry for the slight derailment

You have been active on this forum for quite some time, and I want to see that you are learning important husbandry issues.

I know you are younger, 14 I believe, so I want to continue to give you a break here as well....but I really did hope you would be retaining more knowledge.


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Chris,
> 
> Do you think it's ok to have an adult frog and a froglet in a 10 gallon viv?
> 
> ...


Wow Phil, I thought you were talking to me at first.....LOL...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

herper99 said:


> Wow Phil, I thought you were talking to me at first.....LOL...


 
Chris,

You may be a _little _younger than me...but you are way past 14 brother 

Good advice on your above posts.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Yeah, just about every experienced person says it's highly preferable to keep a pair of tincs/azureus in a 20 gallon enclosure or larger. As I said, there are very few terrestrial frogs that fit in a horizontal 10 gallon, making it a less commonly used tank type. I have seen people successfully make them into arboreal setups by creating a lot of climbing spaces, and using them for thumbnails, however.

More experienced people: Are galacts good as a pair in a 10 gallon horizontal? That'd be the only possible suggestion that comes to mind for me.


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Chris,
> 
> You may be a _little _younger than me...but you are way past 14 brother
> 
> Good advice on your above posts.


Let's see.... if we were doing a simple equation, it would be 

Where x = 14, solve for y to find my age. 

(x + 2) + (3x/2) = y

Is your math mind working today?

Sorry, that was random and off topic. But hey, there's always time for math, right?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bobberly1 said:


> Yeah, just about every experienced person says it's highly preferable to keep a pair of tincs/azureus in a 20 gallon enclosure or larger. As I said, there are very few terrestrial frogs that fit in a horizontal 10 gallon, making it a less commonly used tank type. I have seen people successfully make them into arboreal setups by creating a lot of climbing spaces, and using them for thumbnails, however.
> 
> More experienced people: Are galacts good as a pair in a 10 gallon horizontal? That'd be the only possible suggestion that comes to mind for me.


 
It would be possible and with the correct hardscape, terracing, backround, plant selection ect ect....it would be ok but you have to ask yourself why? Why not a 20 gallon instead and give them proper room?

The biggest reason for the continued "life" of the 10 gallon tank is it's commonality and price. It used to be the standard for the "rack systems" of the professional breeders. It still has it uses and as Chris suggested...it is still very good for a pair of thumbs as a breeding tank or for other species as a grow out tank...or overstock tank....temporary tank...hospital tank...Quarantine tank.

Chris....good to know that I'm only 4 years older than you. That simple algebraic equation brought back the horrors of me barely passing advanced Algebra in HS. In fact, you look a little like my old teacher


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## gretchenellie (Aug 7, 2007)

this is my 10 gallon horizontal for my mantella milotympanum:


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I wasnt saying to put froglets and adults together, i ment like adults being able to live in a 10g just like froglets could. Thats just what i have heard... Also nice tank gretchenellie. What do you keep in there? I know you said mantella milotympanum but is it like a thumb? Also here is my 10g i am building right now...I planted another plant in there after the pic, what do you guys think would be good for it?


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

welll.. i see there is a large and slightly heated convo on this topic here.. all i have to say is.. you really could house azureus and arutus and leuc's in a 10 gallon as adults.. and you prob might even get them to breed. but that doesnt mean you should do it. we are housing these frogs for our personal enjoyment and the least we can do is give them correct space food and treatment. i got a juvi pair of unsexed leucs in a 10 now and they love it cause its well planted and their out of each others way. but i am constructing a 20 gal high for them and plan on purchasing azureus and have a 20 gal long waiting for them. but most thumbnails will do well 2 or 3 in a 10 either way you fit it. so i mean the choice is up to you wether your going to put them in a 10 or not. most ppl just try to squeeze as many tanks into their small area as possible to have a nice collection.. just stick to what you like fill your space with what you enjoy and call it quits and provide propper space for your animals..


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Well the oklahoma reptile show is coming up tomorrow and i was maybe going to get 1 or 2 leucs and have them in the 10g i just posted till i get the 55g built than move them in there. I would have that 10g empty again so i was maybe going to put 1 or 2 red galacts in it. Do you think they wouldnt like that? Right now i just have that 10g and a totaly empty 55g. I was both those types of frogs, but if they wouldnt enjoy it and they need a bigger space than i would wait till i can find a bigger tank. I just want best for my frogs.


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## bmasar (Dec 13, 2007)

heatfreakk3 said:


> Well the oklahoma reptile show is coming up tomorrow and i was maybe going to get 1 or 2 leucs and have them in the 10g i just posted till i get the 55g built than move them in there. I would have that 10g empty again so i was maybe going to put 1 or 2 red galacts in it. Do you think they wouldnt like that? Right now i just have that 10g and a totaly empty 55g. I was both those types of frogs, but if they wouldnt enjoy it and they need a bigger space than i would wait till i can find a bigger tank. I just want best for my frogs.


I know your plants will grow out and stuff, but you're going to need to add a lot more if you want your 10 gallon to permanently house any PDF. There is literally one place for a frog to hide in there. Leaf litter is the easiest way to start. Consider some pothos for a quick, cheap fix.

What do you have set up in terms of quarantine for the frogs you plan on getting tomorrow?


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## gretchenellie (Aug 7, 2007)

heatfreakk3 said:


> Also nice tank gretchenellie. What do you keep in there? I know you said mantella milotympanum but is it like a thumb?


----------------------------

they are not a Dendro. some species are just a bit bigger then a thumbnail dart.

here are a couple of pics of them:


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

gretchenellie said:


> ----------------------------
> 
> they are not a Dendro. some species are just a bit bigger then a thumbnail dart.
> 
> here are a couple of pics of them:


Oh thats cool, they look like pretty frogs.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

bmasar said:


> I know your plants will grow out and stuff, but you're going to need to add a lot more if you want your 10 gallon to permanently house any PDF. There is literally one place for a frog to hide in there. Leaf litter is the easiest way to start. Consider some pothos for a quick, cheap fix.
> 
> What do you have set up in terms of quarantine for the frogs you plan on getting tomorrow?


Okay ill try to get more plants. What are pothos though? A typer of plant? And if i was going to get any darts tomorrow i might put them in the tank i showed on here. But if that tank is not ready i might not even get any darts tomorrow.


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

I think everyone's heart is in the right place here, but can we as a community try to keep our responses pertinant to what's being requested??? I think it's great to give someone some good, quality advice; but multiple pages of debate are unnecessary. Ultimately, we all do what we want, no matter who says what. I do agree that someone who has been on the boards for any amount of time SHOULD, by now, have a good base of general knowledge on PDF husbandry. But we should try our best to educate WHILE keeping this discussion on topic, i.e. posting pictures or links to tanks that fit the request. The reality is that some of the most seasoned PDFers keep pairs of Tincs, Auratus, Leucs, etc. etc. in 10g horizontals...permanentally! So the bottom line is, can you keep these guys in a 10? Yes. Is it in the frogs best interest??? Probably not. But it's done all the time and it is OK if they're set up correctly. That being said, I will tell you that I have kept Auratus, Tincs, Leucs and Orange Galacts in standard 10g horizontals for extended periods of time. While they all did OK, I don't think any of them really thrived. And I honestly think that a smaller tank requires more maintanence than a larger enclosure would. In a tank that small you're just too limited. Feces build up, which is WAY to often overlooked, will accumulate much faster than the plants can break it down in a tank that small. That will usually lead to bacterial problems which could effect the animals. Stress is also huge in these small tanks. Even if you're frogs are of the opposite sex, that doesn't guarantee that the competition for food and space won't occur. Leaving the smaller or more timid frog S.O.L. So while I don't think it's out of the question to keep these frogs in 10g tanks I think it's always best to strive for the biggest space possible. So...can we post more pics of 10g horizontals for this person, please?


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Your right, sorry poison for getting off subject.


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2009)

Okay... well... look at what a mess I've made...

This is why I tend to rather hate message boards... one person has an opinion, and someone disagrees, and then the heads start rolling... *sigh*

*did not change name to get posts, btw*


Thanks for your input guys. I don't want to start out with thumbs though. They're simply too small for me, although, I would love a small community of strawberries (like the one pictured) in the future. I have to get a job, and be making more money before that can happen, however.

I would really like to get a pair of auras or azures, and I doubt that they would stay in the tank permanently, but whatever the case, I won't be placing any frogs in the tank for quite a long time, and really want to get the plant life thriving first. It is going to be heavily planted, with tons of hiding places.

Thanks so much to the person that posted that pic of the gorgeous 10 gallon horizontal! It looks fantastic! (p.s. my horizontal will have more space than most because I won't be using GS, likely just some cork instead).


Thanks for all who replied and didn't get caught up in some sort of fight (I started skimming replies, honestly sick of these kind of quibbles)

Thanks again -anymore photos, guys?


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Strawberrys i have heard are a little hard to take care of, im not sure though. Azureus's are GREAT begginer frogs, it was my 2nd frog and i love him. Also i love his colors and everything. Whos 10g were you talking about?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

You didn't make a mess of anything....

Ever hear the expression....you have to crack a few eggs in order to make an omlette? Sometimes a particular message appears a little harsh, but it's needed.

Just do a search of the Vivs and Frogs section of this board and read for a few hours. You will see tons of 10 gallon vivs, nicely planted too.

Here's a start for you: 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...560-my-first-post-evolution-my-terrarium.html

A 10 gallon horizontal is not "the devil".....just be aware that, that size has quite a few considerations and limitations.

Remember...we are only here to help.


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## Venom (Apr 23, 2009)

I have some cool peices of driftwood I'll be able to incorporate into my viv.  Picked them up the other day in the slough... boiled them and all to kill little parasites... I can't wait to get started.

I want to use a mostly peat substrate - I have a nice big bag of it. I have some old aquarium gravel too, should I put down about two inches of that, and then layer the peat on top? I'm going to slope it towards the front, wit the deepest peat in the back, and the shallowest in the front... that way, the biggest plants will also be in the back.


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## bmasar (Dec 13, 2007)

thetattooedone said:


> I think everyone's heart is in the right place here, but can we as a community try to keep our responses pertinant to what's being requested??? I think it's great to give someone some good, quality advice; but multiple pages of debate are unnecessary. Ultimately, we all do what we want, no matter who says what. I do agree that someone who has been on the boards for any amount of time SHOULD, by now, have a good base of general knowledge on PDF husbandry. But we should try our best to educate WHILE keeping this discussion on topic, i.e. posting pictures or links to tanks that fit the request. The reality is that some of the most seasoned PDFers keep pairs of Tincs, Auratus, Leucs, etc. etc. in 10g horizontals...permanentally! So the bottom line is, can you keep these guys in a 10? Yes. Is it in the frogs best interest??? Probably not. But it's done all the time and it is OK if they're set up correctly. That being said, I will tell you that I have kept Auratus, Tincs, Leucs and Orange Galacts in standard 10g horizontals for extended periods of time. While they all did OK, I don't think any of them really thrived. And I honestly think that a smaller tank requires more maintanence than a larger enclosure would. In a tank that small you're just too limited. Feces build up, which is WAY to often overlooked, will accumulate much faster than the plants can break it down in a tank that small. That will usually lead to bacterial problems which could effect the animals. Stress is also huge in these small tanks. Even if you're frogs are of the opposite sex, that doesn't guarantee that the competition for food and space won't occur. Leaving the smaller or more timid frog S.O.L. So while I don't think it's out of the question to keep these frogs in 10g tanks I think it's always best to strive for the biggest space possible. So...can we post more pics of 10g horizontals for this person, please?


Good point. I'll try to snap a pic of my 10g horiz. It houses one of my tincs that had stunted growth. She was being outcompeted by a male (b/c of her size?) in a larger tank, but she's happy as a clam in her own space.




heatfreakk3 said:


> Your right, sorry poison for getting off subject.


Sent you a PM.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Venom are you the same person as poison?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

not dendros, but I keep up to six mantellas in each of my ten gallons on my rack.


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

I'm going to be setting up a 10 gallon in about a week or so; I'll be sure to post some pics here.


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## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

I have 2 10g horizontals. The first houses 2 tincs who are currently laying clutches regularly although I have yet to get one to the tadpole freely swimming stage. The 2nd has 2 juvenile azureus. I am definitely planning some new vivs - both because I am looking to have froglets in the relatively near future and because I want more frogs. I am planning probably a vertical and am thinking 20 or 29 and probably bowed. My frogs are doing well and perhaps will move into larger homes someday. 

I am learning the value of quarantine more the more I read. You should read up on this. There are good reasons not to put the frogs directly into the planned permanent home.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

lol I was just teasing you . I was just trying to bait you into telling me the real reason why you changed your name .



Venom said:


> I want to use a mostly peat substrate - I have a nice big bag of it. I have some old aquarium gravel too, should I put down about two inches of that, and then layer the peat on top? I'm going to slope it towards the front, wit the deepest peat in the back, and the shallowest in the front... that way, the biggest plants will also be in the back.


One of the problems with peat is that it's very very acidic (low on the pH scale). Something like ground coconut fiber (the expandable brick) is more commonly used because it's more neutral while maintaining it's rot resistant properties. I pulled this quote about coconut/coir fiber off an organic gardening site: "It's a renewable resource with several advantages over peat moss. It holds water without any additives, and absorbs water evenly without any beading on the surface. Coir also has more nutrients, a neutral pH balance, and remains effective for up to 5 years." I also have a massive sack of peat moss that, I was disappointed to discover, could not be used in my vivarium (or at least wasn't the best choice). So I'm with you there...

I know it sounds like some of us are being a little harsh about "absolutely not more than one large frog per 10g", but it's because we're trying to make it clear that while it's possible, it's not recommended. I mean... I could easily live in my teensy little apartment and NEVER leave (assuming that I'm provided with food, water, and correct temperatures). Would I feel depressed and stressed out? Yes. It's just like thetattooedone said: "it's always best to strive for the biggest space possible". We obviously can't give these frogs unlimited space to hop around in but I don't think it's in any way unreasonable to set a 10g minimum. 

I'm sorry if I got off topic with the last paragraph. I just want you to know that we're all trying to assist another hobbyist in learning standard husbandry practices that have been put in place for no other reason than to further ensure the health and well-being of the frogs we all enjoy. I'm also still very new to keeping PDFs so I well remember (and still experience!) the stern tone from board members. We can sound pushy and grumpy (at least I do ), but it's usually not without good intentions. 

Here are some links to mull over:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14619-dendrobates-auratus-novice.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14606-dendrobates-azureus-tinctorius-novice.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/27889-making-pdf-vertical-tank.html

And here's my 10g horizontal even though it only has cuttings rooting in it:








(Yes it's on my washing machine... I told you my apartment was teensy .)

It has aquarium gravel and inert sand in the bottom with nothing but sphagnum moss on top. I've heard of some people using the sphagnum only substrate in PDF tanks but I don't know what the pros and cons are... Just be aware that using the gravel is HEAVY. I only used about an inch since there are only plants in there and the tank weighs about 40lbs. Good luck!


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## cryptokat (Mar 9, 2008)

Here's my 10 gal when it was at its peak.. it's a bit messier now, and the flowering plant grew up to the ceiling and died =( I have 4 azureiventris in there.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

This is a 12.5 gallon that houses 2 vents. I have removed the lemon button fern and both kinds of pilea and planted more broms on the bottom and on the back and added a lot more leaf litter and the broms on the right side are growing huge but the vents love all areas of the tank. The crowded side and the less crowded side.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

I made a 10 horiz with some leftover goods. I got a few pics of it just after planting and it grew in really nice. I used it as a grow out tank for cuttings and an escape pod for my azureus in case the power goes out in the dead of winter.

I put hydroton down and styrofoam land scape covered with silicone and coco bedding in the back corners. The back is a coco mat siliconed to the back wall, easy mounting and uses minimal space. I used a hood with 2 15w compact spirals 6500K by GE or from HD i think...cheap lights. They made every brom in there bright red...wish i got pictures from that. I snippedpups from a couple of HD broms (mom and 3+ pups for $2.98 for the plant i think)
So its a cheap viv... All these broms puped off like mad in this environment.

But...really i think frogs deserve more room....kind of like making your lab or great dane be an indoor dog in a 600sf appartment...and never letting them outside. A bit cramped IMO. 

so some pics:


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Despite it`s size-
That`s a great looking tank.
Very well done.

John


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

divingne1 said:


> This is a 12.5 gallon that houses 2 vents. I have removed the lemon button fern and both kinds of pilea and planted more broms on the bottom and on the back and added a lot more leaf litter and the broms on the right side are growing huge but the vents love all areas of the tank. The crowded side and the less crowded side.


what is that ground cover plant in the front left?


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

baby tears (pilea)


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