# Mixing Dart frogs of the Same species



## Jclay95

Hello all, new to this site, 
at first i really wanted to mix poison dart frog species together in my 80gal natural set up (no livestock at the moment) ive got a lot of experience with exotics and herps and husbandry but not frogs, after extensive research I have decided not to mix any different species together, ive heard some horror stories and some really good advice from reading from this site, and minimal successful stories and rather not risk it

My question may be obvious to you but I dont know whether its able to work, the Dendrobates auratus comes in many different "morphs" or colours can these colours be mixed within the same tank, as they are the same species? Or is it a group of blue and black OR a green and black, no mixing of colours?
as i have not got any frogs yet, does anyone know of any other dart frog species which do well in larger groups (im aware there need to be more males than females) mainly terrestrial (im aware they do climb the plants for breeding and offloading tadpoles )and have great colouring or any other same species with various colouring..
If not i will probably stick to bumble bee dart frogs, but just looking for a easy to get hold of lovely looking frog and group.
Im aware this question has probably been asked stupid amounts of times but i cannot find my answer even for looking and i am new to this site, and am here for advice.. Many thanks
P.s my tank is heavily planted and has lots of various levels for 'territories'


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## Auratus4Ever

I know this is not what you want to hear but I would still recommend not mixing subspecies. This is more for line protection than anything else. If they breed (and they will if you are doing everything right) then you will not be able to do anything with the babies accept keep them yourself. You will end up with tuns of tadpoles/froglets and nowhere for them to go (unless someone wants to buy the hybrids, which most people will not). The young MAY also suffer from outbreeding depression, which would mean the young will be sick/not viable. I would find a subspecies that you like and stick with that. I keep Highland Bronze and Turquoise Auratus (separately!) and they are absolutely amazing in my opinion.


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## Jclay95

Thank you for your reply, when you said 'i may not want to hear this' dont worry i like honesty and I want what is best for the frogs, how do i limit breeding, well i know i cant limit breeding but i mean if i dont sell frogs (i dont want them for selling more to look at) i would be over run with tadpoles/frogs so who would i sell them to or what do i do to limit too many?


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## Auratus4Ever

I suppose you could purchase only proven frogs of one gender but that could lead to other problems like aggression (only seen this in a few frogs but does happen). Honestly, I wasn't planning on breeding my Highland Bronze when I first got them but it just kind of happened on it's own and now I have 16 frogletts . I'm going be be selling them to local pet stores (don't like the idea of shipping them). As far as keeping breeding under control I have no ideas on that but if anyone else on here sees this and has ideas I would also be interested in the information.


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## Jclay95

I suppose ill have to let nature take it course, it will be lovely to have a few froglets somewhere, and i dont want to do single sexed groups as i do want some natural behaviours to be exhibited.

I had a couple who works in a highly specialised reptile shop help make and construct my tank, with shallow pool, slow flowing waterfall, plants levels.. etc its cost me £800 already and not even finished! Still in store now having more done to it, I just want it to be perfect and dont want to f*ck up at the end by wrong selection of species, im sure the reptile shop will take them from me, for maybe trade in other stuff like plants, or bulbs etc.. But i also wont be out to breed if they breed they breed if they dont they dont (unlikely they wong breed) thank you for helping also  and i love the Highland Bronze very pretty frog  some reason my phone wont allow me to view your image


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## Jclay95

Oh you never sent me a image it was an emoji (silly phones)


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## Jmule

I would really advise against mixing frogs of the same species such as auratus. If I were you I'd stick to a nice group of leucamelas as to avoid mixing. In this hobby everyone like to keep there frogs as pure as possible. Some even go as far as to separate import years. Lots of problems can arise from mixing that you can read about such as in the USA frog thread. I'd say you should just try a group of one locale and not mix. Best of luck with what you choose!


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## Jclay95

Thank you, if you told me that 2/3months ago i would of been stubborn and thought oh well ill try it.. But no i will definately never mix! I will keep them purebred  haha thank you to anyone who helps me


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## Pesca.Ranas

I've noticed mixing different species and variations can cause more stress and can also introduce new illnesses that certain frogs can not handle.


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## dendrobates99

Stick with the same species and morph. There are plenty of color variants among dart frogs so no need to hybridize and create "designer" frogs.


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## Jclay95

Hey,
Totally random question,
Next week i will be getting my exo terra large extra tall tank its 3ft x 3ft for my darts which ill get a month later as i want plants to grow and get the right balance of micro-organisms..
Anyway..
Does any of you have the exo terra 90cm large stand for this tank? The one with the gap/shelf under where the tank would sit? (Check it out on Google)
If so could someone please measure this gap for me please? 
As i have a forest scorpion in a faunarrium beside my bed and am hoping to get a custom glass tank (with sliding vivarium doors) to fit in that gap.. 
Sorry for the random question, just want my room to look tidy and not have animals here there and everywhere.
Sorry about random post and thank you


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## Jclay95

Oops this should of been a new post


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## Gibbs.JP

Yep.

Exo Terra : Terrarium Cabinet / Natural Terrarium Stand


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## Jclay95

Um no.. I know the size of the cabinet... I want to know the size of the gap between the top and the cupboards, read what i said properly please


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## Sblue

Auratus4Ever said:


> I know this is not what you want to hear but I would still recommend not mixing subspecies. This is more for line protection than anything else. If they breed (and they will if you are doing everything right) then you will not be able to do anything with the babies accept keep them yourself. You will end up with tuns of tadpoles/froglets and nowhere for them to go (unless someone wants to buy the hybrids, which most people will not). The young MAY also suffer from outbreeding depression, which would mean the young will be sick/not viable. I would find a subspecies that you like and stick with that. I keep Highland Bronze and Turquoise Auratus (separately!) and they are absolutely amazing in my opinion.


Hi! I don’t know if you’ll see this, but I just came across this post. I bought a setup a couple months ago that had one Dendrobates Auratus Green and Black and two Dendrobates Auratus highland bronze. The two seem to be a breeding pair and have produced two clutches. The first clutch has begun morphing into froglets but the first two both had SLS and sadly passed away. I’m waiting on the others to pop out their front legs and see the results. After doing more research and seeing your comment I began to wonder if the froglets having SLS was more than just a random accident since the parents are given vitamins and all other care parameters are great. I have just come to find out that my male is actually a Dendrobates Auratus El Cope. Would that explain the SLS in the froglets? I still don’t know if the rest will be healthy or not. I have changed the parameters in their vivarium to try and stop them from breeding which has worked thus far.


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## Tijl

Please separate the morphs and don't raise the mixed tadpoles!!

The SLS is caused by vitamine deficiencies


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## Encyclia

Since it's hard to know which frogs are the parents of the froglets, they could be hybrids (in the sense that you are mixing morphs, not species) so I would not continue to raise them. This is further complicated by the fact that they aren't healthy. What are you supplementing with? What are you feeding? I would pull the green and black auratus out of the enclosure before you get anymore clutches. 

Mark


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## Woodswalker

I agree that your best option is to separate the frogs to prevent further breeding, and just enjoy them as pets. Since it's only speculation to attempt a guess at this group's identities, it wouldn't be doing the hobby any favors to raise any offspring from them. 

If you would like to pursue breeding, I suggest waiting until you have a different group of frogs with which to start your breeding project. This buys you time to observe frog behavior, get these guys healthy, and more closely evaluate the source and true origin of your next frogs.


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## E man

Auratus4Ever said:


> I know this is not what you want to hear but I would still recommend not mixing subspecies. This is more for line protection than anything else. If they breed (and they will if you are doing everything right) then you will not be able to do anything with the babies accept keep them yourself. You will end up with tuns of tadpoles/froglets and nowhere for them to go (unless someone wants to buy the hybrids, which most people will not). The young MAY also suffer from outbreeding depression, which would mean the young will be sick/not viable. I would find a subspecies that you like and stick with that. I keep Highland Bronze and Turquoise Auratus (separately!) and they are absolutely amazing in my opinion.



totally agree


and I love strawberries


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## E man

wouldn't It be wonderful if you could somehow spay or neuter a dart frogs so you can keep different species in the same tank with no sweat.


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## E man

Jclay95 said:


> Thank you for your reply, when you said 'i may not want to hear this' dont worry i like honesty and I want what is best for the frogs, how do i limit breeding, well i know i cant limit breeding but i mean if i dont sell frogs (i dont want them for selling more to look at) i would be over run with tadpoles/frogs so who would i sell them to or what do i do to limit too many?



you can sell them on craigslist or anywhere online people go crazy for cheap frogs.


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## FroggerFrog

E man said:


> you can sell them on craigslist or anywhere online people go crazy for cheap frogs.


Craigslist wouldn’t be a good idea. Since Craigslist is marketed towards... well anyone, you could be selling a frog to an animal abuser, the black market (maybe a little too far.), or someone with inadequate care.


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## Yargle_Glutton_of_Urborg

E man said:


> wouldn't It be wonderful if you could somehow spay or neuter a dart frogs so you can keep different species in the same tank with no sweat.


I’m not a mixed tank person, but if someone wanted to keep them and prevent breeding wouldn’t freezing the eggs work as well?


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## Socratic Monologue

Yargle_Glutton_of_Urborg said:


> I’m not a mixed tank person, but if someone wanted to keep them and prevent breeding wouldn’t freezing the eggs work as well?


Many species do one or more of the following: hide eggs, hide tads, care for those tads until morphing. Some of those froglets hide quite well until they're adult size.

Also, many morphs can not be distinguished visually by most or even all keepers, and certainly not by one's widow, and certainly not by one's vindictive ex who sells the viv while the keeper is on a "business trip", and absolutely positively not by animal control. So mixed frogs with birth control stand a real risk of becoming mixed frogs without birth control unless a keeper plans on immortality spent watching their frogs 24/7.

Also, freezing eggs is (slightly, but more than negligibly) more morally problematic than not freezing eggs (when everything else is equal). 

Also, one episode of cross breeding that goes unnoticed puts the entire hobby on edge of whether their frogs are of pure lineage. There are way, way, way too many misidentified crosses/hybrids/guesses at IDs in the larger captive herp world to do anything whatsoever to intentionally risk any more of it. That one dude who licked ice cream and put it back on the shelf did damage to ice cream eaters everywhere; this is similar.

So no, it would not work as well, since housing them separately in clearly labeled vivs works 100% of the time.


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## Yargle_Glutton_of_Urborg

Socratic Monologue said:


> Many species do one or more of the following: hide eggs, hide tads, care for those tads until morphing. Some of those froglets hide quite well until they're adult size.
> 
> Also, many morphs can not be distinguished visually by most or even all keepers, and certainly not by one's widow, and certainly not by one's vindictive ex who sells the viv while the keeper is on a "business trip", and absolutely positively not by animal control. So mixed frogs with birth control stand a real risk of becoming mixed frogs without birth control unless a keeper plans on immortality spent watching their frogs 24/7.
> 
> Also, freezing eggs is (slightly, but more than negligibly) more morally problematic than not freezing eggs (when everything else is equal).
> 
> Also, one episode of cross breeding that goes unnoticed puts the entire hobby on edge of whether their frogs are of pure lineage. There are way, way, way too many misidentified crosses/hybrids/guesses at IDs in the larger captive herp world to do anything whatsoever to intentionally risk any more of it. That one dude who licked ice cream and put it back on the shelf did damage to ice cream eaters everywhere; this is similar.
> 
> So no, it would not work as well, since housing them separately in clearly labeled vivs works 100% of the time.


You may have got the wrong idea from my comment, I personally don't like or advocate for mixed tanks for many reasons and certainly don't support hybrids. I was not meaning to say anyone _should _ever do that, sorry for not making that clear. I was more asking if egg freezing works as a way to control unwanted froglets/as birth control. I guess the answer is it does not always work.


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## Socratic Monologue

Nope, I think I understood your question.


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