# A mixing species sort of question



## toxicfrogaddiction (Apr 18, 2009)

Hey,

I have to be honest I am somewhat hesitant about asking this question (hoping to avoid flaming/angry rants) however my curiousity has definitely gotten the better of me and I need to know!

I have this 55 gallon aquarium that I was hoping to turn into a big paludarium type of thing, and I was wondering would it be alright to have some type of fish/freshwater crab/newt in the water part of the tank with Dart frogs on the land part? Is there any way this could work or is it just a fail waiting to happen?


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

Darts aren't that interested in big pools of water, so yea, you could easily keep fish with frogs. I'm just a bit afraid that a crab could snatch a frog or two. I have some red claw crabs in my brackish water aquarium, and sometimes, bits of fin go missing from my fish.


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## toxicfrogaddiction (Apr 18, 2009)

ahh!! Would the crabs be prone to hopping out of the water and chopping on a frog?


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

I guess it depends on what kind of crab you have. What did you have in mind?


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## MonkeyFrogMan28 (Feb 3, 2009)

I wouldnt mix newts with any dart frog because newts cant handle really high humidity that darts need and with stress out and die. Its tricky with darts because like rollei said darts dont like large water areas/deep ones, so newts wouldnt do well and crabs are a little risky in my mind. It might be better if you sectioned off areas with dividers so each can have its own space but keep the desighn similar. I only worry about high humidity because it really isnt good for newts. You would have to have a seprate lid that releases humidity. But it could be done if you use a divider like plexi glass. I would make sure you keep crabs away from everything because it seems they might hurt frogs and newts with their pinch.


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## toxicfrogaddiction (Apr 18, 2009)

Well for a crab I would have said either the fiddler or the red claw, and for the newt I'd love to have a fire belly newt, I'm not quite sure on the fish yet-maybe a beta?
Whichever one of those animals would work best is what i'd use. Don't want to risk the health/well being of any of them.


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## toxicfrogaddiction (Apr 18, 2009)

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> I wouldnt mix newts with any dart frog because newts cant handle really high humidity that darts need and with stress out and die. Its tricky with darts because like rollei said darts dont like large water areas/deep ones, so newts wouldnt do well and crabs are a little risky in my mind. It might be better if you sectioned off areas with dividers so each can have its own space but keep the desighn similar. I only worry about high humidity because it really isnt good for newts. You would have to have a seprate lid that releases humidity. But it could be done if you use a divider like plexi glass. I would make sure you keep crabs away from everything because it seems they might hurt frogs and newts with their pinch.


I agree, thanks for that bit of info.
I was really hoping I wouldn't have to separate it with plexi glass and that I could keep it all one tank/environment. Perhaps I don't have a choice?


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## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

Personally, I wouldn't put darts in a tank with deep water. I dont know exactly how deep you plan on making the water, but I would be worried about the frogs drowning. They arent very good swimmers from what I have heard. I also once saw one of my female leucs hold another one under the water... if the water is deep enough and you dont catch them in time the poor frog would probably drown (she's alive, dont worry). But I have seen people with pretty deep water in their tanks. You probably have to make sure there are a lot of places for the frogs to climb out if they do fall in. If you arent set on mixing fish and darts mabye you could consider mossy frogs! They are pretty cool and like water and land. I'm not sure if they would eat the fish tho.... lol. Just my opinion, they are a lot more experenced people on here that will probably have better advice.


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## toxicfrogaddiction (Apr 18, 2009)

I have considered that possibility and I have in mind some provisions/design specs that would allow for easy access out of the water if a frog fell in. The frogs i've got in mind for this tank are a pair of my patricia's, hopefully they wouldn't consider drowning one another.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I've kept newts in the past and had never heard of them having issues with high humidity? I looked up about a dozen care sheets and could not find anything to support that either. The closest I came was to prevent stagnant air and to make sure there would be air circulation. Do you have a source I could reference that goes more specifically into humidity please.
Thanks


I found this site that does mention to keep humidity "low to moderate."
http://newt150.tripod.com/setup.shtml


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> I wouldnt mix newts with any dart frog because newts cant handle really high humidity that darts need and with stress out and die. Its tricky with darts because like rollei said darts dont like large water areas/deep ones, so newts wouldnt do well and crabs are a little risky in my mind. It might be better if you sectioned off areas with dividers so each can have its own space but keep the desighn similar. I only worry about high humidity because it really isnt good for newts. You would have to have a seprate lid that releases humidity. But it could be done if you use a divider like plexi glass. I would make sure you keep crabs away from everything because it seems they might hurt frogs and newts with their pinch.


I have no clue why you would think newts (as amphibians) would be intolerant of high humdity conditions... 
Now temperature and potential novel diseases are another problem. 
As for larger water sections, the species of dendrobatids that use pools as tadpole deposition sites would be interested in larger pools of water but to reduce risk to the frogs, you would need to have easily accessiable haul outs on all sides of the pool. 

I would not house newts with dendrobatids as none of the newts are native to where dendrobatids are native and this sort of practice increases the risk of novel pathogens causing problems with the newts or dendrobatids (see some of the mixing threads for a further elaboration on this topic, just use the advanced search function, mixing and my screen name for some indepth discussion). 
I would also suggest not housing crabs with the dendrobatids due to the risk of predation on the frogs or the newts. If you want to house some form of crustacean, there are a wide variety of cool shrimp but keep in mind that you would really need to keep up on the water quality to keep the shrimp doing well. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As a further issue, the majority of newts that are available require cool to cold temperature conditions that would not be conducive the dendrobatids. Most of the newts available do best when housed below 70 F. 

Ed


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## toxicfrogaddiction (Apr 18, 2009)

What about a beta fish?


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## midget (Jul 30, 2009)

your best is fish might be a dwaft puffer like the kind at petsmart they will eat almost any bug that falls in the water, only get too be 1" great fish ime. they are puffer which means they have a lot a waste so a decent filter is need but not hard at to incorparte in the tank. guppies are a good choice. betta be a good choice also make sure he is strong enough to handle a tank that big alot of them can't do to the fact lack of use of there muscles. good luck


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

By the way, red claw crabs and fiddler crabs are brackish water inverts. They will only survive a month or two in freshwater. Brackish water is also no good with frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

midget said:


> your best is fish might be a dwaft puffer like the kind at petsmart they will eat almost any bug that falls in the water, only get too be 1" great fish ime. they are puffer which means they have a lot a waste so a decent filter is need but not hard at to incorparte in the tank. guppies are a good choice. betta be a good choice also make sure he is strong enough to handle a tank that big alot of them can't do to the fact lack of use of there muscles. good luck


Again, if one is going to set up a multispecies exhibit, choices should be based on zoogeographically correct animals. I would consider annual killifish from thier regions as a place to start... 

Ed


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Definitly don't go with the fiddlers haha
Mine is always out and about his tank and whatnot
I wouldn't worry about attacking the darts because I kno mine is seemingly afraid of all its tankmates...
But yes, their just the lil adventurers so yea
So no crabs with frogs haha

A betta would be neat though.....

Also, when my auratus's were in a paludarium (before I took them out) I saw them jump in the deepish water many times ( deep because thhere were fish) and they always promptly jumped out so, the whole frogs not being able to swim as bad as it sounds....


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## longliveledzeppelin (Jul 4, 2009)

what about vampire crabs same size as darts same needs look cool but about $25


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## MonkeyFrogMan28 (Feb 3, 2009)

Ok guys lets rethink what I said. Newts can take humidity, but not 80% and up which darts need. Newts prefer cool damp temps like salamanders. I have worked with many newts in my day. Many newts need ideal temps at 70 F. ( like Marble newts) Not to many work well with higher temps. Emperors and fire bellys can. But they dont like 80-100% humidity. One thing I have noticed threw my experience is that too much humidity causes stress to newts and salamanders and they became lethargic and were breathing at a fast pace suggesting stress or un ideal temps/humidity. They would prefer cooler temps and damp. I breed my own salamanders and newts. I try to keep the humidity around 50% during the day then slighty raise it at night to around 65%- 70%. I am not saying I know everything, I am just speaking through my experiences. Plus mixing isnt good. Newts contain skin toxins. Newts need different requirements than a lot of darts. Hey good luck on your choice. I will say no more so I dont get my head bitten off.


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## hpglow (Jun 8, 2009)

longliveledzeppelin said:


> what about vampire crabs same size as darts same needs look cool but about $25


I think vampire crabs are too new to the pet trade to know. I for one don't want to put some in a viv with $200+ worth of frogs to find out.

There are some people on other forums that are trying to integrate the two into a single enclosure, but the jury is still out. I don't have the money or time to do such experements, so until I can read some conclusive reasearch on the matter I will say this is best left to someone with time, money, or to a perfessional.

I would say that due to a vampire crabs tendancy to hang out in broms they may have the tendancy to eat eggs or tads. Their inability to open their claws very far would likely prevent them from doing damage to a frog. However, since I wouldn't want to find that one out the hard way I don't think I will try or suggest anyone else try.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> Ok guys lets rethink what I said. Newts can take humidity, but not 80% and up which darts need. Newts prefer cool damp temps like salamanders. I have worked with many newts in my day. Many newts need ideal temps at 70 F. ( like Marble newts) Not to many work well with higher temps. Emperors and fire bellys can. But they dont like 80-100% humidity. One thing I have noticed threw my experience is that too much humidity causes stress to newts and salamanders and they became lethargic and were breathing at a fast pace suggesting stress or un ideal temps/humidity. They would prefer cooler temps and damp. I breed my own salamanders and newts. I try to keep the humidity around 50% during the day then slighty raise it at night to around 65%- 70%. I am not saying I know everything, I am just speaking through my experiences. Plus mixing isnt good. Newts contain skin toxins. Newts need different requirements than a lot of darts. Hey good luck on your choice. I will say no more so I dont get my head bitten off.



Actually they can take humidity higher than 80%... and this is coming from some one who has worked with a number of caudates species for more than 17 years professionally. 
If by Emperor newts, you are referring to Tylototrition shanjing, then they don't do well at temperatures much above 78 F for long periods of time. When temps get close to 75 F, they will spawn but then they go back under cover and are at temperatures lower than 70 F. 

With respect to firebellies, if you are referring to Cynops orientalis, they do not tolerate temperature above 70 F well, and temperatures above 70 F have been reported to cause mortality in this species. If you are referring to other species of Cynops, the only one that is routinely exposured to temperatures that are the same as most dendrobatids are Cynops ensicauda ssp.. (as these are the only truly tropical newt species). 

The terrestrial caudates are usually located under cover unless the humidity is greater than 80% (and are often only active out from under cover during periods where the humidity is greater than 90%) and in fact distribution may be determined by the available humidity. There is a large body of scientific literature that supports that fact. 

For example see the full article referenced in the following 

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http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/org_nws/N... files/Issue 5/v62 p211 Wilson and Larsen.PDF

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If you read through the articles, activity increases with relative humidity and oddly enough coincides with 100% relative humidity. 

If you are seeing a decrease in activity in the caudates, then the first thing to look at is temperature as this is a known stress indicator due to temperature (see, Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, 2001, Krieger Press). 

Ed


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

Keep in mind that it probably isn't a good idea to have any sort of crab in there that might see a tadpole as food. They may not hurt your adult frogs, but whose to say you wouldn't miss a clutch of eggs one day? They could hatch, and once the tads are in the water they could be highly stressed or preyed upon by virtually any other species. Choose carefully and do loads of research beforehand!


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