# SNDF '07 import question



## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Hi Guys,

I know this question would best be answered by Marcus himself, but since he is not always so easy to get a hold of, I thought I would try here first.

I have some orange/red bastis who's parents were brought in by SNDF in 2007. My question is, were all the bastis in this shipment the same deep orange color or was there a mixture of colors available?

I am asking this because the parents of my frogs seem to breed true to their color. In addition, I think I remember hearing that within the 'cemetery' population there is/may be a semi isolated group of frogs (closer to town/the other side of town) that only show the orange/red color and breed true for that color. 

I am thinking of forming a pair with a different colored basti, but if there is a good chance that my frogs came from this 'only orange' subgroup, I won't do it.

So, did anybody get any gold dust, yellow, white or any color other than orange basits from the SNDF '07 imports?


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

Sadly no matter what everyone has gotten out of their pairs it will have to be labeled and bred with other '07 bastis. Due to the lack of information you cant label them anything else but '07 basti imports.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Being that they came in via Marcus, he should be able to tell you where they came from . . . they are not the generic 'Panama' imports.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

My concern is not what I should label them. I am trying to determine if the parents came in with a group of bastis that ranged in color but were paired based on their color, or if all the frogs in that shipment came in the same color.

I had forgotten that Marcus' imports are "farmed raised" and may not be collected in the traditional sense. I will have to contact him and hope for the best.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I'll see him next weekend. If you have not heard back from him by Friday, shoot me a pm and I'll ask him.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

zBrinks said:


> I'll see him next weekend. If you have not heard back from him by Friday, shoot me a pm and I'll ask him.


Thanks, that's very nice of you.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Patrick Nabors and I discussed this earlier this week. I have a great producing pair of reds with nice red froglets and I was curious how true his produced. He relayed some information he was given by Justin Yeager. 

It is *hypothesized* (nor tested yet) that the basti’s that produce multiple colorations are from an area that smugglers decided to “drop off” their collected frogs. “Red Frog Beach” morph does not exist, as it does not have a basti population.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

JJuchems said:


> Patrick Nabors and I discussed this earlier this week. I have a great producing pair of reds with nice red froglets and I was curious how true his produced. He relayed some information he was given by Justin Yeager.
> 
> It is *hypothesized* (nor tested yet) that the basti’s that produce multiple colorations are from an area that smugglers decided to “drop off” their collected frogs. “Red Frog Beach” morph does not exist, as it does not have a basti population.


So are there other places on the island where there are populations of only gold dust or yellow individuals that the other colors came from? I can see that green bastis pretty much look like colons, but where would the golds and whites have come from? 

I "Goggle Earthed" Isle Bastimentos yesterday and noticed that Playa Rana Rojo (Red Frog Beach) is on the opposite side of the island as the town of Bastimentos. Is there another beach closer to town that has a population of red frogs? I have read stories of red frogs all over a beach. Is that a bunch of cr*p?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't have answers to your questions but Basti's are found at multiple locations. Keep in mind this is a hypothesis, that they want to DNA test. Justin would be a reliable source. I can add that the frogs coming out of Panama are from the same source, though multiple imports have them for the last few years.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

JJuchems said:


> Patrick Nabors and I discussed this earlier this week. I have a great producing pair of reds with nice red froglets and I was curious how true his produced. He relayed some information he was given by Justin Yeager.
> 
> It is *hypothesized* (nor tested yet) that the basti’s that produce multiple colorations are from an area that smugglers decided to “drop off” their collected frogs. “Red Frog Beach” morph does not exist, as it does not have a basti population.


I bought my deep orange/red bastis from a guy whose pair breed true as well. 

I talked to Patrick today and cleared up things a little. What I understood him to say is that its not that there are no frogs on "Red Frog Beach", its that (according to Justin, who is down there right now) the red/orange frog population is contiguous all over the island and there is no distinction between the frogs on the beach and anywhere else. Early imports may have made that distinction, but its not the reality on the island. There is variation in spots, shade of orange/red and extent of white that occurs island wide.
The only location where the whites, gold, yellow, green, etc. bastis occur is in the cemetery. It is hypothesized that frogs from other islands (colons come to my mind) may have been introduced to the cemetery which created these different variations of color.

I didn't ask about the Salt Creek frogs.

However, if Justin's observations are valid, (remember this is not gospel, just my take on these observations) it would mean that deep orange bastis should not be bred with the whites, gold, yellows, etc., but it would be OK to breed them to what we have been calling Red Frog Beach Bastis.

Just for clarification, I am not talking about pale orange frogs with brown /tan legs. Here are some pics of the type of color orange/red I mean.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks for you post, I must have miss understood him.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Fascinating Phil,we want to keep the exact some red/orange basti that you have,one day. We will watch to see if there are anymore developements,thanks for posting this
regards
Stu


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

rcteem said:


> Sadly no matter what everyone has gotten out of their pairs it will have to be labeled and bred with other '07 bastis. Due to the lack of information you cant label them anything else but '07 basti imports.


Really are you serious, there were likely several types of Basti's imported in '07, a few of which I would not put together? But with Basti's trying to restrict breeding them to import year would have a hugely detrimental effect to their production in the hobby.
I would suggest any red/orange Basti from small to large spot would be a good candidate to pair up with this frog. There are certain types I would not pair up with it, like the rust colored ones that almost have stripes rather than spots and the green or white ones, outside of that you should be safe. 
I too have talked to Pat about his conversations with Justin, some of which has validity however so many of the early imports were bright cherry red, small spotted smaller bodied frogs. I find it difficult to believe exporters would cherry pick out these type for initial export, these seem to breed true as well. There also has likely been a lot of change since the mid 90's, access to areas and development which may distort today's perspective. I am anxious to hear more about what Justin has found but some previous reports would somewhat contradict what he finds today.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Phil,

Is there any actual evidence that humans introduced unrelated O. pumilio to Bastimentos? It seems like a very far way to go to suggest such, unless there is a credible report from someone who did this or knew the person(s) that did.

I personally feel that the locality "fetish" in the hobby will work against the frogs we love by creating smaller and smaller breeding populations that we artifically keep isolated from other breeding groups. I see this clearly happening in D. tinctorius (the frog I'm most familiar with), but I can imagine this is likely happening with other dendrobatids as well.

Just a thought, Richard.



phender said:


> I bought my deep orange/red bastis from a guy whose pair breed true as well.
> 
> I talked to Patrick today and cleared up things a little. What I understood him to say is that its not that there are no frogs on "Red Frog Beach", its that (according to Justin, who is down there right now) the red/orange frog population is contiguous all over the island and there is no distinction between the frogs on the beach and anywhere else. Early imports may have made that distinction, but its not the reality on the island. There is variation in spots, shade of orange/red and extent of white that occurs island wide.
> The only location where the whites, gold, yellow, green, etc. bastis occur is in the cemetery. It is hypothesized that frogs from other islands (colons come to my mind) may have been introduced to the cemetery which created these different variations of color.
> ...


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Is there any actual evidence that humans introduced unrelated O. pumilio to Bastimentos? It seems like a very far way to go to suggest such, unless there is a credible report from someone who did this or knew the person(s) that did.
> 
> ...


First, understand that this is second hand information and I may not be spot on target with everything.

From what I understand, Justin feels from his observations that each island in the Boca del Toro group has its own frog, but that the further divisions (like Dragos, etc.) are not supported by his observations.

I don't know what evidence Justin has for the "dumped smuggled frog" hypothesis, but he wants to or is testing DNA. Speaking for myself, after seeing the brown legs on many of the different colors in the cemetery population, it is not much of a stretch to at least wonder if colons may have somehow gotten mixed in there. I don't know exactly how frog pigmentation works, but although red and green paint make brown, red and green light together make yellow. 
I guess we will have to wait for the DNA results. 

I have sort of reached the end of my knowledge and comfort level on this, since I have never met Justin and have only talked to Patrick once on the phone. Not that I think the discussion should end, I just don't know much more than what I have already said.

I think I have seen Justin's email address posted on a website somewhere, you might want to contact the source with more questions.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

phender said:


> First, understand that this is second hand information and I may not be spot on target with everything.
> 
> From what I understand, Justin feels from his observations that each island in the Boca del


I second that.



Woodsman said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Is there any actual evidence that humans introduced unrelated O. pumilio to Bastimentos? It seems like a very far way to go to suggest such, unless there is a credible report from someone who did this or knew the person(s) that did.
> 
> Just a thought, Richard.


Really Phil. What are exporters going to do with animals they can not sell. What about those who did legally collect frogs, and suspect they are about to get caught. They are going to be dumped. If you are collecting from around the island and possibly using that location as a staging area to count and transfer the days catch. I can think of other species that have been dumped, and propagated. 

Vield Chams in FL. They are reports of people being shot at when looking to collect. 
Collard Lizards in Southern IL.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> Is there any actual evidence that humans introduced unrelated O. pumilio to Bastimentos? It seems like a very far way to go to suggest such, unless there is a credible report from someone who did this or knew the person(s) that did.
> 
> ...





JJuchems said:


> Really Phil. What are exporters going to do with animals they can not sell. What about those who did legally collect frogs, and suspect they are about to get caught. They are going to be dumped. If you are collecting from around the island and possibly using that location as a staging area to count and transfer the days catch. I can think of other species that have been dumped, and propagated.
> 
> Vield Chams in FL. They are reports of people being shot at when looking to collect.
> Collard Lizards in Southern IL.


You said Phil, but you realize that was Richard's quote, right?


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> I personally feel that the locality "fetish" in the hobby will work against the frogs we love by creating smaller and smaller breeding populations that we artifically keep isolated from other breeding groups. I see this clearly happening in D. tinctorius (the frog I'm most familiar with), but I can imagine this is likely happening with other dendrobatids as well.
> 
> Just a thought, Richard.


So, are you saying we should be outcrossing all the tincs? wouldn't that completely ruin all the work people have done to have locality frogs?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

JJuchems said:


> Vield Chams in FL. They are reports of people being shot at when looking to collect.
> Collard Lizards in Southern IL.


_Chamaeleo calyptratus _was propagated by a local Florida Cricket Farmer and hobbyist inorder to be "free range" harvested for the pet trade - kinda like how pot farmers try to cultivate crops in certain areas.

While not having actually talked to the land owner / cricket farmer about his thoughts on this...I've done a bit of research and tend to embrace my personal theory above.

This is done with at least a dozen other animals in SoFl.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Jeremy,

I think you are over-reacting to my comment. The truth is that there is almost no actual locality data for most of the frogs we keep in the hobby. An importation date and exporter/importer ID is about the best we can work with most of the time. To segregate populations further and further based on how they "look", is not a scientific way of determining genetic affinities in these frog populations.

We should try to celebrate the phenotypical variation that exist in dart frog populations and not always have to play "matchy-matchy" with the frogs we put together to breed.

That is my opinion. It may be similar or not to your opinion or to other's opinions. That's what makes the world go round.

Take care, Richard.



boabab95 said:


> So, are you saying we should be outcrossing all the tincs? wouldn't that completely ruin all the work people have done to have locality frogs?


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Jeremy,
> 
> I think you are over-reacting to my comment. The truth is that there is almost no actual locality data for most of the frogs we keep in the hobby. An importation date and exporter/importer ID is about the best we can work with most of the time. To segregate populations further and further based on how they "look", is not a scientific way of determining genetic affinities in these frog populations.
> 
> ...



I think my post does seem a little harsh, i was just simply curious... i agree though, that we shouldnt be playing "matchy-matchy" [assuming you mean chosing the nicest/boldest looking frogs]...

Sorry for hijacking...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Jeremy,
> 
> I think you are over-reacting to my comment. The truth is that there is almost no actual locality data for most of the frogs we keep in the hobby. An importation date and exporter/importer ID is about the best we can work with most of the time. To segregate populations further and further based on how they "look", is not a scientific way of determining genetic affinities in these frog populations.
> 
> ...


Not that I have a lot of extra time, with having some resent issues crop up in my own backyard...

but

If the choice is "matchy-matchy" or "mixey mixey"....then I vote for "matchy matchy".

just my .02


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

phender said:


> You said Phil, but you realize that was Richard's quote, right?


Yes, I meant Richard, sorry Phil!


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

phender said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I know this question would best be answered by Marcus himself, but since he is not always so easy to get a hold of, I thought I would try here first.
> 
> I have some orange/red bastis who's parents were brought in by SNDF in 2007. My question is, were all the bastis in this shipment the same deep orange color or was there a mixture of colors available?


 I chatted with Marcus this weekend, and he stated that the bastis that were imported in 2007 showed as much diversity as any other year.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Thanks Zach,

I didn't contact you directly because I decided to go a different way. I will certain keep your information in mind for the future.

Just to be safe I have decided to treat the Bastimentos frogs as 4 populations instead of 3. You've got the Salt Creek frogs and the Red Frog Beach frogs, but I am not sure that the cemetery frogs should be a catch all for everything else. The mix and match, multicolored cemetery population covers only a small area. The rest of the area has frogs too, and they are all deep orange/red, not a multitude of colors. So, I have decided at the suggestion of others that my orange bastis are likely from the general Basti population and not from the cemetery population. If this is true, my frogs should not be mixed with white, gold, yellow, rust, green, etc... frogs. Instead I will be getting a couple juveniles of slightly different color from yellow parents and one juvenile from white parents and hope I come up with a pair.

I am not suggesting that this is how things should be done in the future. I am just saying that this is how I am most comfortable treating my situation.

Thanks for everyone's help and opinions.


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