# Frogs literally dropping like flies!



## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

I'm writing this on behalf of a fellow German frogger - he doesn't speak English so I'm writing this for him. 

He has three auratus as well as four anthonyi he bought on March 14th (Terraristika Hamm ), who have been fine until today. The auratus have been a little bit shy but that's to be expected, I guess. 
This morning, when the lights were turned on, all frogs seemed just fine.
But when he came home today, it was to one dead anthonyi - laying on its back, front feet actually _standing straight up in the air_! - and _all three _auratus laying on their stomachs weakly, "twitching" occasionally and he doesn't think they are going to make it either...
One of the auratus keeps opening and closing his mouth repeatedly...
This all must have happened in a matter of eight or so hours.

The frogs have been in quarantine since he bought them. The anthonyi and the auratus are _not _being kept in the same quarantine enclosure. Fed hydei + melanos, supplemented with Reptivite.
None of them actually appear thin, in fact, he says they all look pretty normal to him (he's kept darts for years).
Fecals have been done, apparently all frogs are parasite-free.

So, what do you think it could be? It seems very strange to me, I mean, all of them _at the same time?_ He takes very good care not to use anything dangerous (chemicals) in the frogs' room.

What he's been doing differently lately is that he opened and used a new Reptivite. Also, he says his wife has been trying a new hair foam... but, the quarantine enclosures are completely closed.

So:
- one dead anthonyi laying on back feet standing straight up in the air
- three very weak auratus laying on belly, occasionally "twitching"

- different quarantine enclosures, but all in a span of eight hours from "normal " to _this_.

Any ideas?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Sounds like heat stroke to me - how warm did the room/enclosure get?


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## -Jex- (Mar 29, 2008)

What is his temperature and humidity in the tank. High temps can cause seizures I believe. Also there are many that believe the reptivite has been causing seizures although I don't think it has been proven. It could be that they are not getting enough calcium. I use rep-cal and herptivite supplements. Tells us more about his enclosures and some pics might help if you can get some.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

How recently were the cages set up and how are they vented? 

Has he considered CO2 poisoning? If there isn't a low area venting or a decent turn over of the air in the tank, CO2 can build-up overnight if there is a real heavy plant load and/or decomposition of organic materials in the tanks. 

I have strong doubts that the problem is related to the supplements. 

Ed


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

Ed said:


> How recently were the cages set up and how are they vented?
> 
> Has he considered CO2 poisoning? If there isn't a low area venting or a decent turn over of the air in the tank, CO2 can build-up overnight if there is a real heavy plant load and/or decomposition of organic materials in the tanks.
> 
> ...


if there was a heavy plant load, wouldnt that reverse the co2 buildup?


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

My first guess would be too much heat. Perhaps today was unusually hot? If that's not the case, then perhaps it was the wife's hairspray. CO2 could also cause death, but it is unlikely that both tanks would suffer CO2 buildup on the same day. 

Plants can turn CO2 into O2, but if there is a heavy load of microbes in the viv, the plants may not be able to convert it into O2 fast enough. Also, it can build up at the bottom on the tank, perhaps below the plants. Plants also produce CO2 at night, but Blackbird said this happened during the day.

Does your friend have a thermometer in the vivs? If not, you can just put your hand into the viv and see if it feel excessively hot.


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

I can't believe I forgot. Temperature he says 77 - 78° F, humidity he told me is around 90%. 

However, I do not know if he keeps a thermometer constantly in his quarantine enclosures, or whether he only checks regularly... guess I'll ask him.

I'll try to see if he can't get me some pictures. Right now all I can say is the frogs look normal to him - that is, no different skin coloration, not thin, etc.

Well, I just talked to him a few minutes ago on the phone - all three auratus appear dead now (as of an hour and a half ago). 
That makes four dead frogs in a matter of approx. ten hours.
He did pull them from the quarantine enclosure, thinking it might have been something about the container, but apparently it was already too late.

Ed, CO2 poisoning, that is an idea I hadn't even considered, suppose that was the reason, shouldn't the frogs have gotten better once he pulled them out of the quarantine container?
He says he had the container set up since March 14th (the day he got them), with paper towels, sphagnum moos, and a photos for each enclosure.
Hm, I'll ask him what condition the photos is in when I call next time (I'm pretty sure it's doing relatively good, guy's as in love with his plants as with his frogs...)
Also, he has another two containers set up in a similar manner with tincs, same lightning, same temperature, humidity, everything, who appear to be doing good (at least till now, seeing as his other frogs detoriated so quickly he's understandably nervous about them as well. 

Truthfully, I don't think it was the supplements either, I mean, four deaths in a matter of hours with frogs that seemed fine...

Well, I'll call him and tell him to re-check the temperature, and I'll also tell him about the CO2 poisoning possibility. 

Poor guy... I know that he is as crazy about his frogs as most of us here are, so I know he's pretty down right now. 

On a side note, the three remaining anthonyi are acting normal... hope it stays that way.


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Blackbird said:


> Fed hydei + melanos, supplemented with Reptivite


I must admit that I have never heard of this supplement before so I looked it up and I got this. "Correct 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio". It has always been my understanding that too much phosphorus can stop the absorption of calcium in amphibians and that the feeder insects contain all the needed phosphorus. So they should have a calcium supplement with zero phosphorus.

This article is where I got this info.

Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc.

"However simply having calcium in the diet does not assure its' availability in a usable form to the animal. This is because certain other ingredients in the diet may bind with calcium, and render it useless before it can be taken into the bloodstream. One such ingredient is phosphorus, which is common in vitamin supplements, and in live insects. In the case of some vitamin supplements which also contain calcium, (what many pet stores will recommend as a single supplement) there is enough phosphorus in the supplement to render the calcium useless. So in this case you would use the supplement on a regular basis, and think you were doing the right thing, until one day your animal is dead, or convulsing with its hind limbs stretched out. You have calcium deficiency!! "



Ed said:


> I have strong doubts that the problem is related to the supplements.


Ed I know that we have talked about this before so please correct me if I am way out of line.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

id check for an outside contaminate like hair spray or perfume. sounds like something in common for sure. airborne of on the hand contaminants could cause such a sudden reaction. also what type of water are they being misted with. could be something there.


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## -Jex- (Mar 29, 2008)

I know I'm still considered inexperienced in all of this but I was wondering the same thing as AlexRible. I had chameleons on that same supplement that were dropping all the time since I switched no problems. I know its two very different animals but with all the recent problems with auratus it makes me wonder about some of these other supplements out there.


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

markbudde said:


> My first guess would be too much heat. Perhaps today was unusually hot? If that's not the case, then perhaps it was the wife's hairspray. CO2 could also cause death, but it is unlikely that both tanks would suffer CO2 buildup on the same day.
> 
> Plants can turn CO2 into O2, but if there is a heavy load of microbes in the viv, the plants may not be able to convert it into O2 fast enough. Also, it can build up at the bottom on the tank, perhaps below the plants. Plants also produce CO2 at night, but Blackbird said this happened during the day.
> 
> Does your friend have a thermometer in the vivs? If not, you can just put your hand into the viv and see if it feel excessively hot.


Now that you mention it, since Thursday the day temperature has gone from approx 48°F to approx 68°F... that is very quick for where we live and entirely too warm for this time of the year (teeshirt weather in the beginning of April ). 

Yes, the frogs were fine this morning, and when he came home later... disaster. 
I'm not sure whether he keeps a thermometer constantly in the viv, he told me the temp has been around 78°F, but if he only checks regularly, not constantly... it is true that the quick temperature rise that has been happening since yesterday (well, I guess it's now the day before yesterday, it's 0:22 am ) is very unusual here, I am not sure what kind of lighting he uses, but I guess it might have gone up to rather a higher temp than he estimated, since I do know that he uses different kinds of bulbs depending on whether it's winter or summer.


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

AlexRible said:


> I must admit that I have never heard of this supplement before so I looked it up and I got this. "Correct 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio". It has always been my understanding that too much phosphorus can stop the absorption of calcium in amphibians and that the feeder insects contain all the needed phosphorus. So they should have a calcium supplement with zero phosphorus.


I see. Here generally the most recommended supplements are "Korvimin ZVT + Reptil", "Nekton Rep" and "Reptivite". But... both Korvimin and Nekton Rep have an _insane_ amount of vitamine A (really_ really _insane...), "Reptivite" seems the safest bet if you do not want to kill your animals due to hypervitaminosis. 
I've used Reptivite as well, but I dusted only every other feeding... and the other times I dusted with calcium. I'm pretty sure he was thinking more along the lines of did this supplement come from a bad batch, or was exposed to heat or something... I'll tell him about the calcium anyway, so that he hopefully starts using a calcium supplement seperately as well. 



sounddrive said:


> id check for an outside contaminate like hair spray or perfume. sounds like something in common for sure. airborne of on the hand contaminants could cause such a sudden reaction. also what type of water are they being misted with. could be something there.


Hmm... he did say his wife has been trying a new hair foam... 
He mists with ro water.


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Blackbird said:


> I see. Here generally the most recommended supplements are "Korvimin ZVT + Reptil", "Nekton Rep" and "Reptivite". But... both Korvimin and Nekton Rep have an _insane_ amount of vitamine A (really_ really _insane...), "Reptivite" seems the safest bet if you do not want to kill your animals due to hypervitaminosis.
> I've used Reptivite as well, but I dusted only every other feeding... and the other times I dusted with calcium. I'm pretty sure he was thinking more along the lines of did this supplement come from a bad batch, or was exposed to heat or something... I'll tell him about the calcium anyway, so that he hopefully starts using a calcium supplement seperately as well.


Interesting, I am unfamiliar with all those.
This is the stuff most of us use over here.
http://www.repcal.com/supp.htm


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

AlexRible said:


> Interesting, I am unfamiliar with all those.
> This is the stuff most of us use over here.
> Rep-Cal Supplements


I'd try it myself if it's good (which I'm thinking it is if so many of you use it ), but it seems I'd have to have it imported from America.  
Here, a lot of people use the Korvimin ZVT + Reptil, I'm not sure why, the vitamine A is 500,000 I.U. per kg. It started out with over 2,000,000 I.U. vit A per kg o), they've since reduced that a bit.


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

I don't want to seem like some sort of boastful american  but you would have a hard time finding someone over here that doesn't use Herptivite and Rep-cal together.

If you decide to give the stuff a try, josh of joshsfrogs ships dry goods internationally 
Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Frog Feeder Insects Fruit Flies Fruit Fly Culture Jewel Orchid Dart Frog Terrarium Supplies Vivarium Supplies by Josh's Frogs


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blackbird said:


> I'd try it myself if it's good (which I'm thinking it is if so many of you use it ), but it seems I'd have to have it imported from America.
> Here, a lot of people use the Korvimin ZVT + Reptil, I'm not sure why, the vitamine A is 500,000 I.U. per kg. It started out with over 2,000,000 I.U. vit A per kg o), they've since reduced that a bit.


You need to look at the ingredients to see if all of the reported vitamin A is from a retinol/retinioc acid/retinyl source or is from beta carotene or a combination of beta carotene and retinol. If the source is primarily from beta carotene then then the reported vitamin A values can be virtually off the charts as there are currently no known toxicity threshold of beta carotene. This is also needed for comparision of the ratio of vitamin A as retinol to D3 as the ratio should be 100:10 (or 10 to 1) to prevent some of the problems with these vitamins. 

Calcium in the supplement should be in a ratio between 1 and 2: 1 of calcium to phosphorus as most of the common feeder insects are poor sources of calcium and adequate sources of phosphorus (you want to shoot for a supplemented insect with that ratio ideally..) 

Once the lights go out, people should remember that the plants consume oxygen and release carbon dioxide. Recovery would depend on how severe the effects of the carbon dioxide would be on the frogs.. 

Even if the temperature is averaging in the safe range, a rapid spike above and then drop back to normal could also show those symptoms and result in death. Often rapid temperature changes can be more lethal than slower ones even if the slower one gets to a higher temperature. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Wouldn`t a supplement problem present itself over time though, not all at once w/ multiple frogs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes unless the level of one of or more of the fat soluble vitamins was so high it would be dangerous but even then it would unlikely to present so quickly... for example excess D3 can potentially take months to present itself.

Ed


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

Yes, that's what I thought also, it all seemed way too quick for bad supplementation.
I talked to my fellow dart frog keeper about the temperature, he said he's had a thermometer in one of the quarantine tinc enclosures and one in the auratus enclosure - the rather unexpected warmth outside (his house gets warm very quickly) did actually raise the temp a bit higher than what he keeps the frogs at normally, to 80°F (tincs) and 81°F (auratus). I'm thinking heat stroke's not it.
Anyway, here's how things are right now:
- all three dead auratus died with their hind legs stretched out behind them
(much like the frogs shown here: Carbon Dioxide in the Terrarium -> found this link while researching Ed's CO2 poisoning theory, thought it might be interesting to others as well. I'd like to add that I am NOT a fan of people experimenting on their animals, but still, interesting article...)
- the dead anthonyi, also with outstretched hind legs, but on his back
- tincs still completely unaffected

What he has done is remove all remaining frogs from their current quarantine enclosure and put them into different temp tanks. The new quarantine tanks are pretty much set up like "real" vivs (with ventilation) only smaller. 
Since then, none of the anthonyi have shown any behaviour to cause (more) concern.

It seems strange to me, though, if it was indeed CO2 poisoning (some sort of poisoning seems likely right now, since temperature and humidity were okay), that one of the anthonyi would have died, while the other anthonyi (same enclosure) showed no signs _at all_.
With the auratus though, it seems very likely, all three suddenly equally "sick".




Ed said:


> You need to look at the ingredients to see if all of the reported vitamin A is from a retinol/retinioc acid/retinyl source or is from beta carotene or a combination of beta carotene and retinol. If the source is primarily from beta carotene then then the reported vitamin A values can be virtually off the charts as there are currently no known toxicity threshold of beta carotene. This is also needed for comparision of the ratio of vitamin A as retinol to D3 as the ratio should be 100:10 (or 10 to 1) to prevent some of the problems with these vitamins.


Googled it, sadly I can't seem to find any information about the source of the vitamin A.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I also wonder if there couldn't have been a vitamin deficiency that existed before he bought the frogs from the breeder. I have had the unfortunate experience of purchasing four froglets that were fine for a couple of weeks after shipping, then lost all to seizures like these. Also, my froglets were sent way too small, so (in my case) I think their size played into the situation.

Sorry for his losses, Richard in Staten Island.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blackbird said:


> It seems strange to me, though, if it was indeed CO2 poisoning (some sort of poisoning seems likely right now, since temperature and humidity were okay), that one of the anthonyi would have died, while the other anthonyi (same enclosure) showed no signs _at all_.
> With the auratus though, it seems very likely, all three suddenly equally "sick".


If it is CO2 toxicity, its not that hard to explain.. the variation could easily be due to where the frogs spent most of thier time. If the one anthyoni was in a shallow depression or was caught in a depression while the other froglets were able to stay above the CO2 layer (remember in a non-moving atmosphere the CO2 is going to settle to the lowest point) or were able to be in a lower concentration...... 

Get your friend to check the ingredients on his containers. 

Ed


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> I also wonder if there couldn't have been a vitamin deficiency that existed before he bought the frogs from the breeder. I have had the unfortunate experience of purchasing four froglets that were fine for a couple of weeks after shipping, then lost all to seizures like these. Also, my froglets were sent way too small, so (in my case) I think their size played into the situation.


Could be possible, but to lose all auratus in a matter of hours... with no visible signs before... I think CO2 poisoning sounds much more likely in this case. Also, I've had a look at the auratus when we were at the show he bought them from - these guys _looked_ very well-fed and definitely not too small for their (supposed) age. 



Woodsman said:


> Sorry for his losses, Richard in Staten Island.


Thanks. I will tell him.



Ed said:


> If it is CO2 toxicity, its not that hard to explain.. the variation could easily be due to where the frogs spent most of thier time. If the one anthyoni was in a shallow depression or was caught in a depression while the other froglets were able to stay above the CO2 layer (remember in a non-moving atmosphere the CO2 is going to settle to the lowest point) or were able to be in a lower concentration......
> 
> Get your friend to check the ingredients on his containers.
> 
> Ed


Ah, I see. That explains it then. 

Er... maybe something is getting lost in the translation: Do you mean the plastic quarantine containers for the frogs or the supplements? 

I've gone over this with him, the containers were set up pretty simple:
- paper towel
- sphagnum moos (he's used the moss from this source before with no problems)
- one photos for each container (plants he grew himself)
- a few yoghurt cups to hide in
- ro water used


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blackbird said:


> Er... maybe something is getting lost in the translation: Do you mean the plastic quarantine containers for the frogs or the supplements?


The supplements. 


Ed


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Blackbird said:


> I've gone over this with him, the containers were set up pretty simple:
> - paper towel
> - sphagnum moos (he's used the moss from this source before with no problems)
> - one photos for each container (plants he grew himself)
> ...


I don't know if it is just me, but it seems like there isn't a whole lot of organic material to be creating CO2 in your friend's quarantine containers. I mean that I have no problems with my vivariums and they are heavily planted with serval layers of decomposing leaves and little to no ventilation.

Do you know the size of the ventilation holes in his containers? Also do you know how long they where set up before he put the frogs in?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If it is CO2 (and again I am stressing the if), then there are a lot of different factors that can come into play such as where the frogs rest at night. CO2 is heavier than air and will settle into the lowest areas of the enclosure; so if for example, you have a deep substrate layer that is gas permeable (such as a layer of gravel or leca with an air layer between the top of the soil and the water line) then the CO2 can settle down into those areas. This is not likely to occur in a quarantine enclosure that is fairly well sealed and consists of paper towels, and some sphagnum moss. 

With respect to the sphagnum moss, this is going to be a source of CO2 as well as potentially methane with the addition of moisture and a nitrogen source (frog excreta, dead ffs, excess supplement to name some inputs) (for an article on peat/sphagnum decomposition see ScienceDirect - Soil Biology and Biochemistry : Methane and carbon dioxide exchange potentials of peat soils in aerobic and anaerobic laboratory incubations )

Some comments on the theory 

Ed


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

Ah... he uses exclusively "Reptivite":
(I have a pretty new bottle lying around here, so I can post it right away):

*Zoo Med's "Reptivite"*

Vitamins per Kg:

Vitamin A (Acetate): 220,264 I.U.
Vitamin D-3 (Cholecalciferol):	22,907 I.U.
Vitamin E (dl-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate): 220 I.U.
Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid): 3083.70mg
Folic Acid: 105.73mg
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine HCI): 165.64mg
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin): 274.89mg
Niacin: 660.79mg
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCI): 66.96mg
Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin): 6696.04mcg
Biotin: 26,431.72mcg
Pantothenic Acid (D-Calcium Pantothenate):	1871.37mg

Minerals and Electrolytes per Kg:

Calcium (Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate) (21.2%):	211.46gm
Phosphorus (Dicalcium Phosphate) (10.6%): 105.75gm
Iodine (Kelp) (0.0002%): 2114.54mcg
Iron (Ferrous Fumarate) (0.045%): 440.53mg
Magnesium (Magnesium Oxide) (0.26%): 2643.17mg
Copper (Cupric Sulfate) (0.045%): 440.53mg
Manganese (Manganese Carbonate) (0.077%): 77.53mg
Sodium (Sodium Chloride) (1.63%): 16,299.56mg
Zinc (Zinc Oxide) (0.045%): 440.53mg
Potassium (Potassium Chloride) (1.76%): 17621,15mg

Amine Acids (per pound /454 gm.):
L-Glutamine: 32.0mg
L-Arginine: 52.8mg
Isoleucine: 10.7mg
Lysine: 52.8mg
L-Leucine: 52.8mg
L-Alanine: 20.8mg
L-Cystine: 32.0mg
L-Phenylalanine: 10.7mg
L-Serine: 10.7mg
L-Threonine: 20.8mg
L-Tyrosine: 20.8mg
L-Valine: 20.8mg
Glycine: 42.7mg
L-Methionine: 20.8mg
L-Aspartic Acid: 52.8mg
L-Glutamic Acid: 148.8mg
L-Histidine 10.7mg

---

*"Korvimin ZVT + Reptil"* (according to Google)

Per Kg:

Raw protein:	5.5%
Raw fat: 0.3%
Raw ash:	61.5%
Raw fiber:	0.4%
Calcium:	15%
Phosphorus:	7.5%
Sodium:	4.0%
Magnesium:	2.0%
Vitamin A:	500,000 I.U.
Vitamin B1:	160mg
Vitamin B2:	500mg
Vitamin B6:	300mg
Vitamin B12:	1,800mcg
Vitamin C:	4,000mg
Vitamin D3:	50,000 I.U.
Vitamin E:	500mg
Calcium-D-panthothenate: 1,000mg
Niacin: 3,000mg
Folic Acid:	80mg
Vitamin K1:	30mg
L-Carnitin	15,000mg
Cholin Chloride:	30,000mg
Iron (Iron (II) sulfate, monohydrate): 400mg
L-Carnitine:	15,000mcg
Biotin: 10,000mg
Manganese:	50mg
Zinc: 500mg
Copper: 200mg
Cobalt: 58.0mcg
Iodine: 20mg
Molybdenum:	47mcg
Sodium Selenite: 2mg


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

AlexRible said:


> I don't know if it is just me, but it seems like there isn't a whole lot of organic material to be creating CO2 in your friend's quarantine containers. I mean that I have no problems with my vivariums and they are heavily planted with serval layers of decomposing leaves and little to no ventilation.
> 
> Do you know the size of the ventilation holes in his containers? Also do you know how long they where set up before he put the frogs in?


True but then, he used _dead_ sphagnum moss - I am not sure about the decomposition rate of sphagnum moss, but decomposing plant matter does release CO2 into the air...
There actually were no ventilation holes, as he believed opening the containers once a day (to feed) would be sufficient for air ventilation. 
I'm not sure when he set them up, will ask.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Can I just go back to the heat stroke thing for a moment? I've been keeping my enclosures at a pretty consistent temperature since getting darts, but prior to this I raised a frog from a tadpole, just a common pixie or some sort of frog. Two months later I had the same experience. I came home after just four or five hours and my frog was dead but the ambient room temperature was just fine. I reached in the tank and felt the water and it was at a good 83+ degrees! We knows that water cools slower than air so I can only assume that there was a spike in the temperature in my house for a few hours....

77-78 degrees seems a little high to me to begin with (I know that it's in the acceptable range, but it's on the high end of that range, I try to keep mine between 74 and 76). It wouldn't surprise me if because of the unexpected rapid increase of outside temperatures during a month that should be much cooler caused him to be unprepared for the heat. During the high point of the day the house heated up for a few hours and by the time he got home everything was back to normal.... If the normal temp in the frog room is 77 degrees it would only take a five degree spike to put the frogs in danger....

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. I am still more inexperienced. Either way my experience with my pixie has caused me to get an expensive thermometer that records and saves the highest and lowest temperature in a 24 hour period to ensure that temperatures have been within an acceptable range all day. Not much I could do if the temp spiked while I wasn't home, but at least I'd know why my frogs are dead and it would provide me with more information to combat it next time....


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

SmackoftheGods said:


> 77-78 degrees seems a little high to me to begin with (I know that it's in the acceptable range, but it's on the high end of that range, I try to keep mine between 74 and 76).


77° or 78° F is the generally recommended temperature during the day for a lot of the poison dart frogs here - I've noticed that there is a certain difference in what is recommended regarding temperature (and other things like tank size) between America and Europe (or possibly only Germany, though I don't think so), I'm just not too sure why. Well, I do know that a huge part of the reason of this is because Dendrobase has some photos of thermometers being used to gauge the frogs' habitat's temperature - often 77-78°F.

I use these digital "min - max - current" thermometers too, they're pretty useful. 

Hmm, what I wonder is - let's say a heat spike occured - would the air even have had time to cool down in a closed container before he got home? 

Well, I guess we'll never know for sure which one it was or if it was something completely different at that - the hair foam hasn't been dicarded, but then again, if that had been the case, wouldn't the other frogs (new tincs as well as his older frogs) have been affected too.
Whichever one of the two likelier ones it was, I'm certain he has been cured of using completely closed containers to quarantine (and so have, for that matter...).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Those are the guaranteed analysis which can be different from the ingredient list. The ingredient list needs to be checked for the sources for example retinol can be added to the supplement via fish oil while beta carotene can be from algae or other sources. 


Ed


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