# internal air circulation



## DartAsylum (Feb 17, 2011)

hi all 

i want to get a feel of how many ppl use internal fans? 
on which types of darts?
or do you use fans for all of them?

i picked up 15 computer fans for 1$ each on new egg. then i picked up alot of ac/dc adapters at the thrift store. 

ive added a fans to my pum tanks and I am starting to wire something up for the rest of my frogs. im thinking circulation would be good for the plants as well.

all my tanks are sealed up with minimal screen venting. humidity stays 90-100 percent with or without fans so tanks dying out is not an issue.

also temps in living room 72-74, in frog room 76-82

for those who have used internal fans ...have you seen alot of benefit from this?


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

The fans aren't for the frogs benefit.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

It benefits everything imo. Cools the tank down a few degrees if it's to hot for the frogs (this means they are out in the open more), and for some species of plants makes a noticeable different in health. Take a look at this polka dot plant in the picture. The ruffled unhealthy leaves were growth before I added my fans. The new leaves are growth after the fans were installed and turned on. Notice the vibrance of the pink, before and after also.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

based on my research on the board I have concluded that circulation for Pum's is not essential but highly recomended. I'm in the starting phase of setting up 6 pum tanks and I will be putting fans in each of those tanks. I have a fan in my basti tank and after a years operation everything is fine. Recently doug (pumilo) posted a link for setting up internal fans that is real nice. I'll see if I can find it when I get home and post it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Beat ya to it! 
DIY Air Circulation | GlassTropics
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=581721
Certainly it is for the frogs! It improves the health and well being of the frogs, and the plants. Plus just improving the smell of the viv and clearing your front glass.
I am worried that the OP did not mention any kind of housing or screen? It's just a matter of time before frogs find those fan blades the hard way if it is exposed.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Beat ya to it!
> DIY Air Circulation | GlassTropics
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=581721
> Certainly it is for the frogs! It improves the health and well being of the frogs, and the plants. Plus just improving the smell of the viv and clearing your front glass.
> I am worried that the OP did not mention any kind of housing or screen? It's just a matter of time before frogs find those fan blades the hard way if it is exposed.


Good point pumilo! Ever just stick your head inside a viv and take a big wiff? Love doing that at -30 outside haha. Try doing that in a viv without air circulation and it can be terrible. I think the frogs appreciate it also.


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## DartAsylum (Feb 17, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Beat ya to it!
> DIY Air Circulation | GlassTropics
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=581721
> Certainly it is for the frogs! It improves the health and well being of the frogs, and the plants. Plus just improving the smell of the viv and clearing your front glass.
> I am worried that the OP did not mention any kind of housing or screen? It's just a matter of time before frogs find those fan blades the hard way if it is exposed.


they are screened in 
ive noticed on my pum tank that since the fan is in there they are out and about a lot more. and i mean alot more. normally w/o a fan they tend to sit in the broms. with the fans they are all over the tank. maybe coincidence time will tell.

of course ive heard of the benefits to pum and that some ppl report animals dying possibly from being in a sealed viv w/o circulation. i added a fan to my cobalts last night, i have to say they are as bold as pit bulls. no matter what i do in their tank they just sit and dare me to make them move  anyways once i put the fan in there, i thought the noise or whatever might bother them, but instead they took turns sitting right in front of it. as if they were really enjoying the breeze.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I put a fan in one viv. I loved it so much I began construction on 11 more!! Just finished them but have not installed them yet.


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## retest (Nov 4, 2010)

Darts live on the floor, hence not much air circulation is needed. Tree frogs on the other hand, need good air flow.

Also, air stagnation will promote mold, which isn't good for the plants, or (any kind of) frogs.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

how do you wire computer fans to plug in a wall socket? I've seen people get boxes that controls fans....to people using phone chargers. Is there a way you all use or prefer that is simple and good? I want to put a few fans in my vivs....


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

DartAsylum said:


> they are screened in
> ive noticed on my pum tank that since the fan is in there they are out and about a lot more. and i mean alot more. normally w/o a fan they tend to sit in the broms. with the fans they are all over the tank. maybe coincidence time will tell.
> 
> of course ive heard of the benefits to pum and that some ppl report animals dying possibly from being in a sealed viv w/o circulation. i added a fan to my cobalts last night, i have to say they are as bold as pit bulls. no matter what i do in their tank they just sit and dare me to make them move  anyways once i put the fan in there, i thought the noise or whatever might bother them, but instead they took turns sitting right in front of it. as if they were really enjoying the breeze.


Is everyone having this same experience? Does internal air circulation make that big of a difference? Maybe I'll need to get working on a fan for my tank as well then...


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Hmm now make me wonder if i should add one since im redoing my tank. Hmmmmm............


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Let's put it this way. We've all seen posts about people touting the benefits they've seen after putting a fan in.
I'm still waiting to see ONE SINGLE PERSON say that they did it and it was a waste and wish they had not bothered. I don't think this person exists!


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## Steve25 (Jan 29, 2010)

I just added a fan on top of my tank that blows cooler air into the tank. I have window screen and it rests on top. I have it on a timer for 10mins 3 times a day at lowest speed. I use old cell phone chargers 12 v fan on 5 v charger will make the fan run really slow which is perfect.( and another useful tip is using 5v comp fans older smaller CPU fans.. Beware they are extremely fast and blow more air than traditional fans due to the wattage of them and a 5v cell phone charger.. So they run at max need to adjust flow.) So far my tank has less moisture on the glass, overall freshness of air seems better. I will continue to use fans in my other tanks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Steve25 said:


> I just added a fan on top of my tank that blows cooler air into the tank. I have window screen and it rests on top. I have it on a timer for 10mins 3 times a day at lowest speed. I use old cell phone chargers 12 v fan on 5 v charger will make the fan run really slow which is perfect.( and another useful tip is using 5v comp fans older smaller CPU fans.. Beware they are extremely fast and blow more air than traditional fans due to the wattage of them and a 5v cell phone charger.. So they run at max need to adjust flow.) So far my tank has less moisture on the glass, overall freshness of air seems better. I will continue to use fans in my other tanks


Be careful with that. That could drastically change your humidity. Most of us are talking about just recirculation. Air simply being moved around inside the viv. Not blowing dry air from outside the viv, into the viv.


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## Steve25 (Jan 29, 2010)

Hmm okay I will monitor it closely, I have no frogs inside and my hum gauge only drops to low 80's from 100. Temp drops 5 degrees


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Steve, check out the threads I referenced in post #5. That shows how a lot of us are doing it. It allows us to clear the glass, get the benefits of circulation, while still keeping humidity up around 90 percent.


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## DartAsylum (Feb 17, 2011)

Brian317 said:


> how do you wire computer fans to plug in a wall socket? I've seen people get boxes that controls fans....to people using phone chargers. Is there a way you all use or prefer that is simple and good? I want to put a few fans in my vivs....


im a nurse and by no stretch of the imagination an electrician...hehe so i take no responsibility if you fry yourself

that being said i cut the end off the adapter (like a 9v converter for a toy or a 5v for cell phones), (i paid less than 2$ each for these at a thrift store) and wire it to the pc fan (the pc fans come with a pretty long wire attached making splicing it to the adapter easy) if i want 2 fans in a viv i just wire them both together to the adapter. then plug the 9v or 5v adapter into 110 outlet.

if the fan is running backwards unplug it and reverse the wires.

i hope that made sense

so far ive been running them all day then turning the fans off with the lights at night. btw they are almost silent while running.


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## Steve25 (Jan 29, 2010)

Okay thanks I'll reconfigure my fan setup... Thx


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

DartAsylum said:


> im a nurse and by no stretch of the imagination an electrician...hehe so i take no responsibility if you fry yourself
> 
> that being said i cut the end off the adapter (like a 9v converter for a toy or a 5v for cell phones), (i paid less than 2$ each for these at a thrift store) and wire it to the pc fan (the pc fans come with a pretty long wire attached making splicing it to the adapter easy) if i want 2 fans in a viv i just wire them both together to the adapter. then plug the 9v or 5v adapter into 110 outlet.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks for the answer ! Do you happen to know which adapter is best? Which brands do you use....if you use one. I've heard some work and some dont....so just wanna get something i can use . Appreciate the advice !


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

I have domb quesion but I always thought about, does having a misting system or having water get on the fan in the tank effect the fan at all it may sound stupid but just thinking about it bothers me


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## miko12 (Mar 25, 2011)

How would you house the fan such that the humidity does not get into the electrical stuff? I'm always paranoid of going home to ashes.....


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Brian317 said:


> Ok thanks for the answer ! Do you happen to know which adapter is best? Which brands do you use....if you use one. I've heard some work and some dont....so just wanna get something i can use . Appreciate the advice !


That is somewhat dependent on what fan you are using. The fans I chose to use are a 12 volt fan and they draw .22 amps. Now I can run my fan on less voltage if I want to, but using more voltage could shorten the life. Therefor I chose an adapter that has adjustable voltage. I can switch it from 3,5,6,7.5,9, or 12 volts. I needed an adapter that with an output of at least .22 amps. I chose an adapter with an output of 1.8 to 2 amps max. If I keep to the safe side of 1.8 amps, and I divide 1.8 (adapters amp output) by .22 (Fans amp draw), get an answer of 8.18. So my choice of adapter will allow me to power a maximum of 8 of my fans on one adapter. By switching the voltage down, I can slow down my fans. I found it on eBay.
My fans are bigger than the 40mm case fans used in the how to thread I cited. By sanding the corners off, I was able to fit a 60mm case fan into a very similar housing. This gives me a good bit more airflow so I thought it would be prudent to use an adjustable adapter.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Now, are we talking completely sealed tanks here?

I have a 3/4 inch vent at the top of my vert...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

leuc11 said:


> I have domb quesion but I always thought about, does having a misting system or having water get on the fan in the tank effect the fan at all it may sound stupid but just thinking about it bothers me





miko12 said:


> How would you house the fan such that the humidity does not get into the electrical stuff? I'm always paranoid of going home to ashes.....


The adapter is on 110v but it is out of the viv. Within the viv we are only playing with 12 volts. I run my mister and my fan at the same time with no problems. There is a guy on the board that reports using the same fan, with misting, for 5 years and still running! When I did RC cars, we typically ran a higher amperage draw motor on 7.2 volts and we would completely submerge it in water, with it running, with our bare hands, for cleaning purposes and brush seating and we would not feel any shock.
I would never run a 110v fan in the viv for the reasons you guys stated above. 



Wallace Grover said:


> Now, are we talking completely sealed tanks here?
> 
> I have a 3/4 inch vent at the top of my vert...


They can be used in a completely sealed viv, or in one with a small vent. I have small vents in mine. The important thing is that you want to recirculate air within the viv. You do NOT want to push dry air from outside, into the viv, thus replacing the humid air with dry air.


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## DartAsylum (Feb 17, 2011)

my vivs that have fans, are 100% sealed. i dont want the humidity to go down.

mine are not in any kind of pvc cases. just mesh over the fan blades. ive gotten them wet on accident and they are still running. they hang in the tank by the cord, ghetto i know 
i might upgrade at some point but dont see the need really.
they are easy to hide behind plants.

im using 80mm fans (i think). i tossed the boxes. anyway they run fine on 5v 7v 9v 14v 12v etc. the volts just change the fan speed. 

as far as adapter brands... whatever u find at the thrift store for less than 2$ that way if it wont work you can toss it. so far all the adapters i bought work. they range from cell chargers to typical large clunky adapters.

i work 1-2 days a week so i am home to monitor whats happening. i wouldn't be comfortable leaving the house with the fans running until i was sure they were safe, for the frogs and the house. i would hate to come home and find frog jerky because the tank dried out.

leave a humidistat in the tank and check it frequently. so far fans have not decreased the humidity at all.


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

so would this be fine a fan with a controller or low voltage adapter to bring the speed of the fan to a small breeze be fine in a 20 high? and I was wondering if you guys always keep the fans running or turn them on and off periodicly


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Hmm, I would build one but I am SO paranoid about breaking the glass on the verts I already built. (but the paranoia of dead plants is setting in too) Is it really necessary in my situation? (a 20H vert with a 3/4-1" or so vent?)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Wallace Grover said:


> Hmm, I would build one but I am SO paranoid about breaking the glass on the verts I already built. (but the paranoia of dead plants is setting in too) Is it really necessary in my situation? (a 20H vert with a 3/4-1" or so vent?)


It wouldn't look as nice but you could build a pvc manifold to the front of the vent in the vert and have it blow outside air in once or twice a day. 


Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

leuc11 said:


> so would this be fine a fan with a controller or low voltage adapter to bring the speed of the fan to a small breeze be fine in a 20 high? and I was wondering if you guys always keep the fans running or turn them on and off periodicly


Proper fan size for the viv is not really spelled out anywhere that I know of. If it helps, the units I built keep the front glass nicely defogged on my 25 gallon slope fronts. I'll be mounting one to a 50 gallon 2'x2'x2' soon but I don't know if one will be enough there or not.
I run mine constantly but have considered turning them on and off with the lights.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Wallace Grover said:


> Hmm, I would build one but I am SO paranoid about breaking the glass on the verts I already built. (but the paranoia of dead plants is setting in too) Is it really necessary in my situation? (a 20H vert with a 3/4-1" or so vent?)


Plenty of vivs have been run in the past with no fans and no ventilation. So it is not necessary, just an improvement.


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Proper fan size for the viv is not really spelled out anywhere that I know of. If it helps, the units I built keep the front glass nicely defogged on my 25 gallon slope fronts. I'll be mounting one to a 50 gallon 2'x2'x2' soon but I don't know if one will be enough there or not.
> I run mine constantly but have considered turning them on and off with the lights.


thanks and my dads an electrition so hes gonna help me figure this stuff out to


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

keep an eye out for an instructional video i'll be making on how to wire circulation fans (properly)

it should be happening in the next week or so.

james


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I made a quick video a week ago of my 2 fan setup. Im not sure if james is hinting that it wasnt done correctly, but it works for me. It may not be 100% the best way of doing it, but I went over my wiring and gizmo ratings with an electrical engineer from work, and he gave me the thumbs up. If anyone sees any flaws let me know.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

not at all. i hadnt seen your video.  your video was fine and explained the set up of fans well. im just sort of ocd about some things, so i'll be showing a little more diy step by step on how to properly strip, solder and heat shrink the wires, how to use/wire harness connectors (2 prong/ not the ones supplied), fan controllers (5.25in / multiple channel), as well as explaining how to choose your power source, and i may include a how to backpack system demo showing how to create a closed loop system with the fan still mounted outside the tank.



james


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## Dew (Aug 3, 2011)

I've used an internal circulation fan but not with darts. I used it with a few white's tree frogs. I really only put it in for some orchids I was trying to grow, and it helped a lot. I would probably use it with darts though.


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## Venom_Within (Aug 3, 2011)

Would it be useful to possibly make a little housing for the fans out of the Great Stuff covered in cocofiber? Like a permanent mold, or one that the fan fits into? That way it would really disappear into the background with some type of guard protecting the frogs from the blades and perhaps hiding it behind a brom, cork, or driftwood. (post-build)

Or even just "building" it straight into the GS background, perhaps at an angle so it is open on both sides (obviously don't completely seal one side or there will be no air flow and you'll burn out the fan... lol)? (pre-build)

Any thoughts?


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

You'd just have to make sure it could draw air from behind it


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Venom_Within said:


> Would it be useful to possibly make a little housing for the fans out of the Great Stuff covered in cocofiber? Like a permanent mold, or one that the fan fits into? That way it would really disappear into the background with some type of guard protecting the frogs from the blades and perhaps hiding it behind a brom, cork, or driftwood. (post-build)
> 
> Or even just "building" it straight into the GS background, perhaps at an angle so it is open on both sides (obviously don't completely seal one side or there will be no air flow and you'll burn out the fan... lol)? (pre-build)
> 
> Any thoughts?


What happens if the fan fails from exposure to moisture? How do you get it out to replace with the next one?


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Place fan in GS, let cure. Carve out, lightly silicone back in?


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Do y'all remember those silly little solar fans for hats? They were 2/$10. Anyway, I placed one inside my imitator tank to see if it would really work. I secured it to the top of the glass right under the light, and it perked along just fine. It still needs some fine tuning, but it's a possible source for gentle airflow in a 20gal vertical without having to wire it up. 

jest a thought ~

k


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## mrfrogdude (Jun 26, 2011)

guppygal said:


> Do y'all remember those silly little solar fans for hats? They were 2/$10. Anyway, I placed one inside my imitator tank to see if it would really work. I secured it to the top of the glass right under the light, and it perked along just fine. It still needs some fine tuning, but it's a possible source for gentle airflow in a 20gal vertical without having to wire it up.
> 
> jest a thought ~
> 
> k


Any chance you have a link to where you bought those? Sounds good to me 

Mark


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

mrfrogdude said:


> Any chance you have a link to where you bought those? Sounds good to me
> 
> Mark


Im pretty sure there was a thread a few months ago where solar fans were discussed and tested. Turns out flourescent lights dont output the correct spectrum of light for the solar panel to absorb. Do a search for "solar powered fan" and you should find it easily. I was disappointed they didnt work for my lighting setup


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## mrfrogdude (Jun 26, 2011)

Oh ok, bummer! Someday.... haha

Thanks,
Mark


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I've been building up some 20 - 29gal vertical tanks. Sylvannia has a cfl light bulb - Sylvania micro-mini CFL Instant-on daylight bulb, 6500k. It works with the solar fans when the solar panel is snug up to the top of the tank. For testing purposes, I used a wooden skewer threaded thru the clip and held up by magnets.

Here's the link to the fans:
Amazon.com: Solared Power Hat Fan (2 Pack): Clothing


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

james67 said:


> keep an eye out for an instructional video i'll be making on how to wire circulation fans (properly)
> 
> it should be happening in the next week or so.
> 
> james


I realize that this is an old thread, but have you made this video yet?? Am really interested as a complete scardey cat about anything electric...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Here it is Judy. james67.wmv - YouTube!


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I thought that was really, really good...but do have a couple of questions re the "backpack"...can you explain that a little more fully??? I realize that it makes it possible to service without having to disturb the viv...so can you supply a diagram to show how it is incorporated into the build?? Would it be possible to add a fogger hose between the sandwiched fan and the "out" into the viv. That would be a clean way to have another feature without too many intrusions into the viv. It would have to be after the fan or moisture would eventually compromise the electronics...just an idea...thanks for having supplied that video. Have you made any more???


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## diggenem (Sep 2, 2011)

What about aquarium air pumps to circulate air? Has anybody ever used them?


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## Totenkampf (Jun 25, 2012)

nice thread~! i have been thinking about the best way to do this and it turns out that i was right in line with pumilio's excellent setup. i have purchased evercool 60mm vga cooling fans since you dont have to round off the corners (they are already round) and they are pretty quiet.

i was toying with the idea of internal circulation fans along with one that draws in fresh air in bursts throughout the day. i might link it to the misting system so the humidity stays up. i think fresh air is very beneficial to preventing pathogens and other nasty slimy conditions. circulating old air keeps it from being stagnant but its still old. the euro style terrariums are designed around this idea too, although they use passive circulation from having vents under the door and in the rear top of the enclosures.

the fans should do fine with the humidity since they are low voltage. there is a guy on ebay who pots his to make them spray resistant (IP65 i think) for about 14 bucks a pop.

i saw a person who hid his fans in cork rounds and that looked pretty natural. he had intakes drilled into the back of the aquarium for fresh air. i though it was a cool idea


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Totenkampf said:


> i was toying with the idea of internal circulation fans along with one that draws in fresh air in bursts throughout the day. i might link it to the misting system so the humidity stays up. i think fresh air is very beneficial to preventing pathogens and other nasty slimy conditions. circulating old air keeps it from being stagnant but its still old. the euro style terrariums are designed around this idea too, although they use passive circulation from having vents under the door and in the rear top of the enclosures.


In a 90 gallon cube I'm putting together (the dimensions can be seen here Glasscages.com - Glass Open Fronts), I have the fans running for several minutes after the misters shut off. This way, it pulls new air into the tank, forcing out more stagnent air and drying off the leaves of the plants while still allowing the humidity to rise once the fans shut off. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Totenkampf said:


> nice thread~! i have been thinking about the best way to do this and it turns out that i was right in line with pumilio's excellent setup. i have purchased evercool 60mm vga cooling fans since you dont have to round off the corners (they are already round) and they are pretty quiet.
> 
> i was toying with the idea of internal circulation fans along with one that draws in fresh air in bursts throughout the day. i might link it to the misting system so the humidity stays up. i think fresh air is very beneficial to preventing pathogens and other nasty slimy conditions. circulating old air keeps it from being stagnant but its still old. the euro style terrariums are designed around this idea too, although they use passive circulation from having vents under the door and in the rear top of the enclosures.
> 
> ...


Can you please supply us with a model number for your round fans? I would like to look into those.


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## Totenkampf (Jun 25, 2012)

Sure, I bought the Evercool VC-EC6010M12S. I guess they are more accurately 'frameless' rather than 'rounded frame'. They are pretty tight in a 2" SCH40 PVC fitting and I havent got around to deciding the best way to mount them but they look promising. I bought them here along with a fan controller:

Evercool 60mm, 10mm thick, 12V Bury Frame, 2 pin, VGA Cooler Replacement Fan, 4000rpm, VC-EC6010M12S, White Box-Best Computer Online Store - Buy with Discount Prices from Houston Texas-Directron.com


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## chamsRawesome (May 14, 2014)

Pumilo said:


> That is somewhat dependent on what fan you are using. The fans I chose to use are a 12 volt fan and they draw .22 amps. Now I can run my fan on less voltage if I want to, but using more voltage could shorten the life. Therefor I chose an adapter that has adjustable voltage. I can switch it from 3,5,6,7.5,9, or 12 volts. I needed an adapter that with an output of at least .22 amps. I chose an adapter with an output of 1.8 to 2 amps max. If I keep to the safe side of 1.8 amps, and I divide 1.8 (adapters amp output) by .22 (Fans amp draw), get an answer of 8.18. So my choice of adapter will allow me to power a maximum of 8 of my fans on one adapter. By switching the voltage down, I can slow down my fans. I found it on eBay.
> My fans are bigger than the 40mm case fans used in the how to thread I cited. By sanding the corners off, I was able to fit a 60mm case fan into a very similar housing. This gives me a good bit more airflow so I thought it would be prudent to use an adjustable adapter.


how do construct this fan cause I would love to add this to my new viv for the internal air circulation.


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