# New here, question on water features and frog safety



## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

Hello.

I will be getting my very first dart frogs some time in the next week or two. I am getting two d. azureus juveniles. My friend who owns the store that is ordering them is also getting 2 juveniles for herself, and already has 2 sub-adults that we think are males and is willing to trade frogs around so we can get m/f pairs hopefully. 

I already have a 10 gallon tank setup for the frogs with a false bottom covered in a layer of charcoal and then coconut fiber with a small fountain pump forming a shallow water feature with a piece of cork bark (the water forms a shallow pool ontop of the concave surface of the cork bark and runs off the sides and back through the false bottom) with plants and broken up indian almond leaves.

These are my first frogs, but I've kept fish and terrestrial hermit crabs for years.

I'm so excited for the frogs that I am already planning on tearing down my 40 gallon breeder aquarium and turning it into a frog vivarium. I was told by my friend who is ordering in the frogs that I should not have water that is very deep at all (more than about 1/2" or so) because the frogs can drown, however I see tree frog vivariums and the like with large pools at least 5 or so inches deep. 

I'm wondering if it's true that I shouldn't have deep water in the vivarium or the frogs could drown, or if I could incorporate a deeper pool so long as I provide ways for the frogs to climb out if they do happen to fall in.

Thanks.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

They're frogs. They can swim. But they're not fish. Just provide easy access for them to get out. 

That being said, they might enjoy the floor space more than the water feature.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

oneshot said:


> They're frogs. They can swim. But they're not fish. Just provide easy access for them to get out.
> 
> That being said, they might enjoy the floor space more than the water feature.


obviously this person doesnt know anything about darts(even though his signature states he owns them)....so pay no attention to them. juveniles are harder then adults...*Mainly feeding them*
Dartfrogs if you notice do not have webbed feet but spaced toes (similar to toads) so the are not built to swim in water but climb. 

I was warned numerous times before i got my first darts to:

1. not get azureus but auratus(but its ok)

2.*DO NOT PUT A WATER FEATURE IN THEIR!!!!!* only a 1/8" to possibly a 1/4" of water. *THEY WILL NOT SWIM BUT DROWN*

i had my first 2 azureus die. the one drowned in an inch of water and the other would not eat..no matter what i did.

then i tried 2 clown treefrogs and 2 hourglasses. two species commonly found together in south america. the hourglasses wouldnt eat probably from stress(bad on my part) and the one clown once again drowned in an inch of water and the other died of chytrid which i think came from a plant imported from central america.

P.S. do not import plants or get wild caught animals. Im not against you getting them. Just want to insure your frogs get proper care


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

stephen-mcginn said:


> obviously this person doesnt know anything about darts(even though his signature states he owns them)....so pay no attention to them. juveniles are harder then adults...*Mainly feeding them*
> Dartfrogs if you notice do not have webbed feet but spaced toes (similar to toads) so the are not built to swim in water but climb.
> 
> I was warned numerous times before i got my first darts to:
> ...


you killed 4 frogs, and I'm the one who doesn't know what they're talking about?

We have a search button. I suggest you use it. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/81238-much-water.html

You had a frog die of Chytrid? What precautionary measures did you take to ensure you didn't pass Chytrid on to other animals in your care and ones outside your home?

To the OP, just ask Ed.

Too tired for this.


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

The plants I'm putting in the tank are cultivated in the US and have nothing more than wood mites on them. I have some small ferns, miniature orchids, tilandsias, and some others. The frogs are farm-raised and are coming in from Ohio. 

Also, the water feature in the 10 gallon tank I have setup for them is barely 1/4" deep. It's just whatever water will pool up on the concave side of a piece of cork bark before it overflows back down below the false bottom.

I am thinking that as much as I would enjoy having an area with enough water that I could have some fish in it, there are alot of issues with filtration and other details that pose big problems, besides the potential danger to the frogs.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Yikes!

Welcome Taari, you are going to adore your azureus! Oneshot provided a good link to thoughts about water and dart frogs. Unfortunately when darts are sick they tend to go to water areas and often people assume that they have drowned, when their deaths are from another cause entirely. 

Your 10g should be fine for your young frogs, but with the water feature it may be to cramped as they grow up ..so your 40g they would love down the road. Then you have plenty of time to plan and look through the hundreds of construction threads, with or without a water feature 

One thing you might consider is keeping your new frogs in a simpler setup for a month or so. If your frogs have any health issues, you will be bummed if you have to tear down the tank you have set up so nicely. Do a bit of research on "quarantine" and see how you feel.

Good luck, it will be fun


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## pdfDMD (May 9, 2009)

Welcome! Darts are very enjoyable animals. I agree with srrrio, if you do have a water feature I'd keep it small and shallow; darts don't like to go for a swim and there's always the risk of a frog drowning with deep pools. Also, large water features take up a lot of valuable floor space (azureus are terrestrial, territorial, and females can be highly aggressive towards each other), but it's been my experience that water features can be a bit tricky. They can leak water and saturate your substrate, killing your plants and making a rotten mess and pumps can break or get clogged. If it's a large feature and you've integrated it well into the terrarium, it may be difficult to remove or repair it. If it's small, you might be able to remove it with minimal effort or leave it off. With a 10 gallon, a water feature may make the tank a bit cramped for a pair of azureus; in time a larger tank may be in order.


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

stephen-mcginn said:


> obviously this person doesnt know anything about darts


Way to contribute...
I can't find one bit of good advice from what you've offered, but then again I probably don't know anything either... when you criticize (and its ok to do so) be sure you know what you're talking about.
As to the original post-- are water features safe-- yes, provided there are escape points. I am in favor of shallow features not exceeding 2"; unless you have fish in it, I consider it wasted space.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

I'm still fairly new to the hobby myself, but I agree with most of the posts. I have water features in 3 of my 11 setups. The darts do seem to appreciate hanging around them at times. They also make better use of land portion though, so the water should be small, shallow, and simple. Think of them as people who don't swim...they still like to hang out at the water's edge and get their feet wet.

One post I definitely don't agree with is the post by Stephen. Simply put...very rude.

Best of luck! You'll love the azureus! Read and search on here often. There's a wealth of information on here. Keep in mind, there is a variety of opinions and experience. Some KNOW what they're talking about and some THINK they know what they're talking about. Read multiple opinions and then form your own.

-Chris


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## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

Don't forget to get some FF cultures going (if you don't already).
Most of all enjoy those Azureus, they are such beautiful frogs. Also, have fun working on that 40B, new builds are so much fun.


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## Gocubs (Apr 23, 2012)

Sonow I wonder. In our thumb setups, why is it ok to have an inch or so of standing water at the bottom of deposit canisters? Are we putting our animals at risk of drowning? I also have several tanks with small deli cups to act as deposit sites for tincs that lay in the foliage. Should I remove these? Remove some water? Now I am confused and have removed all deli cups before work!


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

I got an azureus as my first frog, very bold and fun to watch. To help keep humidity up I just got a small water dish that exoterra ( I think ) makes. My azureus sits in it like a hot tub every once and awhile with one front leg up on the side, really funny. I am not sure I would put a big water feature in a 10g either. Azureus' ( at least mine ) really enjoy floor space and climbing space and a water feature might take up a lot of space in a 10g especially if you want it big enough for fish. That other tank you talked about would be sweet with one though. Have fun with your frogs and just a heads up, they won't be your last. They are addicting.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Gocubs said:


> Sonow I wonder. In our thumb setups, why is it ok to have an inch or so of standing water at the bottom of deposit canisters? Are we putting our animals at risk of drowning? I also have several tanks with small deli cups to act as deposit sites for tincs that lay in the foliage. Should I remove these? Remove some water? Now I am confused and have removed all deli cups before work!


Thousands of froggers use tens of thousands of film canisters for egg deposition sites. They can climb vertical glass walls, and I've seen them hanging upside down on the top glass of the tank. They can get out of a deli cup/small cup of water. 

I guess "stephen-mcginn" will have to tell us what we should be using for egg deposition sites if we can't use anything filled with water...


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

To the OP, it looks as if you have received enough solid advice on the water feature issues...I would like to touch on something else. 

You may want to reconsider your choice of substrate. A layer of 100% coco-fiber WILL become completely saturated, especially with a water feauture! You will then have a mess on your hands as plants won't do so well, microfauna will not be able to establish itself, possibility of foot rot developing in your frogs, and a number of other "micro-biological" issues I am not qualified to talk about  My first viv (pre-dendroboard) had a 100% coco-fiber substrate. After all my plants died, I tore everything out and the smell from the substrate was awful!! 

There are a number of different substrate choices available to you. However, for your first viv and in a ten gallon I would reccomend this simple fix: Take your coco-fiber out, then take your charcoal layer you already have down out. Get some sphagnum moss and if available orchid (fir) bark chips. Mix all this together in a bag or bowl and then place the mixture on top of your false bottom. This will give you a substrate that drains much, much better! Top it off with some leaf litter and your all set.

Good luck, have fun....and post some pictures!


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

stephen-mcginn said:


> obviously this person doesnt know anything about darts(even though his signature states he owns them)....so pay no attention to them. juveniles are harder then adults...*Mainly feeding them*
> Dartfrogs if you notice do not have webbed feet but spaced toes (similar to toads) so the are not built to swim in water but climb.
> 
> I was warned numerous times before i got my first darts to:
> ...


First off i agree with oneshot 100%. Obviously darts are not designed to swim, but they are definitely capable of doing so (witnessed by me on many occasions). 

1. Im not sure about your reasoning behind getting auratus instead of azureus as your first frog but i do not think this is true at all. Azureus are just as easy to care for than auratus and are recommended by many as a great beginner frog.

2. Sounds like most of your animals died not because of drowning but some other factor. This is especially true if chytrid was the cause of death for one of your frogs, what makes your think it wasnt the cause of death for all the others? It seems as though alot of frogs spend a good amount of time soaking in water features when they are sick/ close to death so just because you found them dead in the water, does not mean it drowned.

It sounds like you should do a little more research and know what you are talking about before you start calling people out.



Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

That being said i do think you should hold off on a water feature in a 10g tank. With a tank that small, the more floor space the better. You also dont want to have trouble with wet substrate. 

However, if you plan on using that 40g to house these frogs when they are adults (10g is too small for two adult tincs) a small water feature should be fine.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

Here are some pictures of the 10 gallon and the water feature.


















It's a little hard to see it through the condensation, but it's a piece of cork bark curned concave-side-up with a little water pooling in it and running back down below. I would only put a larger water feature in the 40 breeder. I consider the 10 gallon temporary at this point.

There's some conflicting info from what I've gotten elsewhere. I was told not to use sphagnum moss because the frogs could swallow little pieces of it and get impacted. 

Also, I grow orchids, I have over 40 of them, and I also have other houseplants, while orchids obviously grow well in orchid bark, other species of plants need a finer medium because they have finer roots. I understand the issue with the medium getting too soggy though. I just don't think orchid bark would make an ideal medium for every plant in there. I'm planning on converting many of the plants from my aquarium into emersed growth. These are aquatic plants such as anubias, cryptocoreyne, java fern, and a few others, so having very wet, saturated substrate is actually ideal for them, but I also want to have other plants such as ferns and broms.

The main reason I wanted a larger water feature in the 40g was to have fish in it. My plan was to have sloped sides on it, plus have various branches transitioning between the water and land for swimming frogs to climb out on. However, the fish would require a filter and I'm having trouble thinking of a way to provide filtration without it gettng clogged up and being a severe pain in the butt to clean out.

The design I have in mind for the 40b is to have a waterfall in the back right corner with a space behind it where I will be able to easily access the pump. The waterfall will fall into a shallow pool and then drain into a shallow stream that will cut the tank diagonally in half. The stream will then drop over another small waterfall in the front left corner and drain through rocks back beneath the false bottom OR into the water area in which there will be small fish like elassoma gilberti.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Taari said:


> There's some conflicting info from what I've gotten elsewhere. I was told not to use sphagnum moss because the frogs could swallow little pieces of it and get impacted.
> 
> Also, I grow orchids, I have over 40 of them, and I also have other houseplants, while orchids obviously grow well in orchid bark, other species of plants need a finer medium because they have finer roots. I understand the issue with the medium getting too soggy though. I just don't think orchid bark would make an ideal medium for every plant in there. I'm planning on converting many of the plants from my aquarium into emersed growth. These are aquatic plants such as anubias, cryptocoreyne, java fern, and a few others, so having very wet, saturated substrate is actually ideal for them, but I also want to have other plants such as ferns and broms.


A couple of points for you.
1) Sphagnum can present a danger of impaction...just like dirt, coco fiber, clay, peat, or any other substrate you use. Anything a frog ingests COULD pose a problem of impaction. Therefor there is no truly, 100% safe substrate. In my opinion, the best you can do is minimize the danger with a nice deep bed of leaf litter.
Sphagnum is used quite often on most vivs. I would say it is an extremely common viv material.
2) Have you ever raised plants and orchids in an environment that all always be very humid, and is often misted/rained on? Randommind is dead right. A coco fiber substrate will become waterlogged and kill your plants. EXTREME drainage is required. Here is a link discussing one of the more common substrates used in frog vivs. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html
Our frog vivs stay moist enough that extremely well drained mixes, like orchid mixes, will work wonderfully on a VERY wide assortment of plants, including fine rooted terrestrials.
Substrate alone is something you could spend days, even months, researching. Please though, search around substrates and drainage for a while. You'll soon see that you will want to rethink substrates due the high humidity and substrate saturation.


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

I have grown epiphytes in a small terrarium, but there was just gravel in the bottom with water, none of the plants touched the bottom of the tank, they were all hung on the sides.

I could see using a mix of fir bark and coconut fiber with leaf litter on top, which is one recipe I found in a quick search. 

The 10 gallon is setup the way it is because my friend who is ordering the frogs set it up this way, this is how she does all her vivs. My friend is very knowledgeable, but she doesn't know everything, though all of her frogs seem to be thriving.

I will do alot more research before I actually start building the 40 gallon viv. I still have to find homes for my fish and tear it down before I can start.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Tank looks great, even with the water feature


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

oneshot said:


> you killed 4 frogs, and I'm the one who doesn't know what they're talking about?
> 
> We have a search button. I suggest you use it. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/81238-much-water.html
> 
> ...


this was years back when i was new to all of this..as soon as i the animal died i pulled the cage imediately out and gutted it...burned the insides and bleached the glass....and everything i was around was cleaned or burned aswell..i use hand sanitizer before and after im done with everycage...

every person i have ever talked to that owns pdfs have told me nothing deeper then 1/4" and water features are ok but are not used because of low amounts of water. Half of them were breeders of leucs,auratus azureus and a few thumbs....im always at reptile shows and always talking to other beeders. i have found few that agree that deeper water is ok. what works for one person doesnt always work for others.

you saying that its ok and leave it at that wasnt right and people taking that info in come up with different ideas then what you thought of when writing your original statement.

i tell them my past so they can pick up on what i learned in the PAST....i learned from my mistakes and i use mine to assist others so they do not have the same problems i did.

I do not want to continue this argument because it is not fair to the person who created this thread or those reading it. i only criticized because i took in a different thought then what you think of when you wrote your advice.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

stephen-mcginn said:


> every person i have ever talked to that owns pdfs have told me nothing deeper then 1/4" and water features are ok but are not used because of low amounts of water. Half of them were breeders of leucs,auratus azureus and a few thumbs....im always at reptile shows and always talking to other beeders. i have found few that agree that deeper water is ok. what works for one person doesnt always work for others.




So which is it? Every person you have ever talked to said nothing deeper than 1/4" or a few that said deeper is ok? It's frustrating for everybody and detrimental for beginners when someone like yourself so rudely throws misinformation at a simple question (and there's quite a bit of misinformation in that first post of yours). 

But back to the OP, most everything has been addressed in the other responses, and as Doug pointed out in his link, ABG is the preferable concoction for the substrate layer. Using just fir bark and coco fiber would still result in compaction and saturation, it requires something that wont saturate/break down such as tree fern panel or charcoal. Doug's link provides the recipe, or it can be bought pre-mixed from multiple vendors.

Good luck!

-Pat


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

I looked up the ABG mix and it looks like a great choice. I searched around for the ingredients and found them to be surprizingly expensive, particularly the milled peat, milled sphag, and tree fern fiber. However, I found it pre-mixed here ABG mix (8 quart/2 Gallon) | Josh's Frogs for $12 for 2 gallons, which seems much easier and cheaper than buying all the ingredients sepperately (a 1 gallon bag of milled peat or sphag was around $17)

It looks like a nice mix with a blend of small and large particles that plants wth fine roots can dig into and I like the idea that it can last for so long.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

oneshot said:


> They're frogs. They can swim. But they're not fish. Just provide easy access for them to get out.


What part of this wasn't OK? They are frogs - true. They can swim - true even though you may not think so, just ask around if anyone's ever seen a dart frog swim. They're not fish - true, and my point was obviously that they will need to get out of the water eventually. Provide easy access for them to get out - true, healthy frogs will be able to climb out, even up vertical glass walls, not much to worry about.



stephen-mcginn said:


> obviously this person doesnt know anything about darts(even though his signature states he owns them)....so pay no attention to them. juveniles are harder then adults...*Mainly feeding them*
> Dartfrogs if you notice do not have webbed feet but spaced toes (similar to toads) so the are not built to swim in water but climb.
> 
> I was warned numerous times before i got my first darts to:
> ...


Juveniles being "harder" to feed had nothing to do with the question of whether frogs can get out of a bowl of water.

Just because a frog isn't built to swim doesn't mean they can't swim.

You were warned numerous times to get auratus instead of azureus (which as mentioned before is strange because they are both recommended for beginners), yet you still chose azureus. Despite numerous warnings (even though they may have been flawed warnings) you chose the frog that would be "harder"? But you also state that it's OK for the OP to get Azureus???

"Do not put a water feature in their" It would be "there". What evidence do you have to support that 1/4 inch of water would be OK? What evidence do you have to support that frogs can't swim, they will drown?

You had a 3/4 inch frog drown in 1 inch of water? Really? Even if you were correct in thinking frogs absolutely cannot swim at all, he could have hopped over to the edge if it was only an inch of water. As stated before in this thread and in many other threads that would have seen had you used the search function or done any research, that frogs tend to go to the water when they are sick or are going to die. More than likely, that is what really happened in your case. The fact that the other frog wasn't eating is an indicator that there was potentially something wrong with the frog you assumed drown in the water.

Then you state, "do not get wild caught animals, but I'm not against you getting them" what side are you on? Do you think before you type?



stephen-mcginn said:


> you saying that its ok and leave it at that wasnt right and people taking that info in come up with different ideas then what you thought of when writing your original statement.
> 
> i tell them my past so they can pick up on what i learned in the PAST....i learned from my mistakes and i use mine to assist others so they do not have the same problems i did.


Again, which part of my original post wasn't factual? You learned from your "mistakes"? So you believe your "mistake" was having 1 inch of water in your tank? That was the problem... right. Seems more like your "mistake" was seeing a dead frog in the water and assuming they drowned in there because they couldn't swim.

I did a little research on your previous threads/posts and noticed you got owned by Ed for throwing out misinformation like it was factual. Have you not learned, like in your signature.... And as a side note, your lack of command of the English language is frightening...


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