# Anyone remember when Azureus wher alot more deep purple??



## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Does anyone remember about 10 yrs back or so when Azureus where a lot more deep purple in the body and head/vent area than they are nowadays? 

I see a lot of Azureus as of recent years and they're really washed out. What happened? Has that old line worked itself out of the trade? 

Im not big on them anymore, but I think if I ever came across a few that were deep purple like back in the day, Id pick some up. 

Ill try and attach pics of what I mean.

Deep purple as in pic one, and somewhat pic 2 in comparison to the other.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Dark ones still show up from time to time, but it seems that most people favor the sky blue ones over the deep blue. Saurian recently had this pair up for sale, I'm really bummed that I didn't see it in time:


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

I do remember about 6-7 yrs ago a breeder in Michigan had like 3 prs that originated from the Wakiki Aquarium, they were like a glowing violet color. I tried my best to talk him out of a pair, actually worried that they would all be lost. In the end he went out of business and pretty much lost an entire garage full of frogs, very sad they were stunning!!!


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Yea I miss the old school deep purp Azureus. Thats one of the main reason I dont currently keep them now. I cant find them!!!

BTW I lived in Hawaii from 2000-2002, and do remember them having some nice purple Azureus. But then again they were the norm around that time. Ive noticed over the years theyve become very washed out, Like Topny said, Sky Blue.


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

I have a pair that are all of 10 yrs old that are deep blue with some larger black spots. I had 7 babys morph out about 2wks ago. I haven't bred them for a number of yrs. just enjoyed looking at them. Finally over the Summer decided to throw the moisture and feed real heavy lo and behold they took off again. Some bad eggs for awhile but eventually, maybe they had to loosen up some rusty parts!!!!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Tony said:


> Dark ones still show up from time to time, but it seems that most people favor the sky blue ones over the deep blue. Saurian recently had this pair up for sale, I'm really bummed that I didn't see it in time:


Stunning frogs! I don't much care for tinctorius, but if I saw some of these I'd definitely be tempted....


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Just a note a lot of the tincs and azurius I have are still what I call old school, I have had the same bloodlines since the 90's, and your right I do see differences between many frogs offered today as opposed to what was once common.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Just to be clear I'm not saying darker and/or more purple ones don't exist as I've seen some variability in my own frogs but lighting and cameras can have a big effect on how the frog looks in a photo. For example that first pic posted by the OP...It does look to be a darker frog in general but much of the purple effect looks to be due to lighting.

My guess is there is at least one of the fairly red standard aquarium lights over that tank and that hue combined with the frogs own natural color makes it look more purple then it actually is. Cameras with certain quirks can exaggerate that even more in a photo. It could be that at least in part this perception of fewer darker and more purple frogs is due to camera tech getting better over the years as digital is easier to post to the internet and we went from crappy digital cameras to ones that rival film in the last 10 years. Plus more people going with 6500k lighting then ever, instead of standard more red aquarium tubes or old reef lighting they had when they transitioned to darts = a paradigm shift in our general perception of these frogs overall coloration (on average). ...Just a theory


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I have two pairs i've had for just a couple years that pretty much only throw dark blue, large spot froglets. dont much care for the fine spot sky blues


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## Arizona Tropicals (Feb 15, 2010)

sktdvs said:


> Does anyone remember about 10 yrs back or so when Azureus where a lot more deep purple in the body and head/vent area than they are nowadays?
> 
> I see a lot of Azureus as of recent years and they're really washed out. What happened? Has that old line worked itself out of the trade?
> 
> ...


We have a trio that are what you'd consider common to the hobby now, additionally we are frog sitting a trio from another frogger and his trio is amazingly deep and rich like you're describing, they're almost black by comparison they're so dark and saturated with deep blue. I plan to ask where he got them, and if he's ok with it I'll post pics. They are stunning!


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

the pics I posted are generic, but I do remember alot of the Azureus being deep purple in the snout/body area even before DSLR's were so common. And Im talking 97-98. Just seems like a lot of the Azureus are so washed out nowadays. (not that thats anything wrong with it) 

I guess I just miss the old days?? =)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As a hypothetical thought... 

Is anyone feeding thier azureus astaxanthin? Red can be a sequestered pigment (unlike blue which is a reflection from an iridiopore). 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> As a hypothetical thought...
> 
> Is anyone feeding thier azureus astaxanthin? Red can be a sequestered pigment (unlike blue which is a reflection from an iridiopore).
> 
> Ed


Mine get it through Repashy Calcium Plus, but they are the more common sky blue type, no trace of purple on them.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> As a hypothetical thought...
> 
> Is anyone feeding thier azureus astaxanthin? Red can be a sequestered pigment (unlike blue which is a reflection from an iridiopore).
> 
> Ed


I've wondered about that since I've always heard blue was Iridiopore based in darts (That go for other frogs and reptiles?), but I figured their skin probably has other pigments in it, or something that might allow a sequestered pigment to influence the color to some degree.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Mine get it through Repashy Calcium Plus, but they are the more common sky blue type, no trace of purple on them.


Were they given it as tadpoles and metamorphs? Tadpoles have different metabolic pathways for astaxanthin. 

It is possible that without the exposures to sufficient other carotendoids, you could have frogs that do not develop the darker colors. 

There could also be a genetic component as well.. If they didn't start getting the astaxanthin as an adult, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any change. 

Mainly thinking out loud. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> I've wondered about that since I've always heard blue was Iridiopore based in darts (That go for other frogs and reptiles?), but I figured their skin probably has other pigments in it, or something that might allow a sequestered pigment to influence the color to some degree.


As far as I know blue is iridiopore based in all of the herps examined so far. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Were they given it as tadpoles and metamorphs? Tadpoles have different metabolic pathways for astaxanthin.


I'm not sure, I purchased them as adults. I may have to try some different foods on their tads when they start breeding again.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I've been in this hobby for over 15 years and I've never seen a purple azureus. I do know what you guys are talking about when it comes to that deep, dark, azure blue versus the washed out shy blue frogs of today however. Not of fan of the washed out blue. I remember the "good" old days when azureus froglets were 70 bucks a pop.


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## porkfish66 (Oct 30, 2010)

Funny, I was in the hobby about 12 years ago til I had a disastrous ant invasion and moved on to reefkeeping. Just set up a viv and was considering azureus, but they all looked so washed out and blah compared to the deep azure frogs I remember.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

fleshfrombone said:


> I've been in this hobby for over 15 years and I've never seen a purple azureus. I do know what you guys are talking about when it comes to that deep, dark, azure blue versus the washed out shy blue frogs of today however. Not of fan of the washed out blue. I remember the "good" old days when azureus froglets were 70 bucks a pop.


I've got tons of them I will sell to you for $70 a pop if it will make you feel good.


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

When I got my first darts which dwarf tincs from a doctor in Wisconsin, Azureus were $500, at that time I figured I would never see one let alone own any. I would take a vacation day from work so I could try to get through on the line when he had a sale. You would just keep hitting redial until hopefully you got through, it was first come first serve, he would mail out a list a few weeks before a sale. In the end he had to give it up because his wife insisted, it had taken over his life!!!!


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

JoshK said:


> I've got tons of them I will sell to you for $70 a pop if it will make you feel good.


I was being a smart ass lol but I suspect so were you Josh hahahaha.


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## dewit (Dec 21, 2010)

I am still very new to this hobby, but you guys are saying that the colour has gotten less dark over the years. Would this also be the case for the WC ones. Or are they changing because of the way people are breeding them


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

dewit said:


> I am still very new to this hobby, but you guys are saying that the colour has gotten less dark over the years. Would this also be the case for the WC ones. Or are they changing because of the way people are breeding them


It would be from breeding because people have line bred for sky blue frogs. which sucks.

Also, azureus don’t get imported anymore.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Something else that could be going on here is that similar morphs like blue sips, koetari river, or new river morphs could have been mistaken for azureus and allowed to breed..,those frogs along with true azuerus may have given people the imperssion the frog were darker. Then offspring of these were sold as azuerus and for awhile that may make it seem like the majority were dark blue an more purple then todays frogs but as those frogs get mixed with true azuerus repeatedly down the years they might in effect wash them out so they aren't so dark, nor purple.....this a theory. I took an ambien, hard to be coherent when my words are floating away as i type them....HOLD STILL ! Sigh....laterz


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

I haven't been in the hobby for to long but I know what you mean buy some being so blue they almost look purple! Personally I don't like the lighter blue ones this is my Azureus.


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Something else that could be going on here is that similar morphs like blue sips, koetari river, or new river morphs could have been mistaken for azureus and allowed to breed..,those frogs along with true azuerus may have given people the imperssion the frog were darker. Then offspring of these were sold as azuerus and for awhile that may make it seem like the majority were dark blue an more purple then todays frogs but as those frogs get mixed with true azuerus repeatedly down the years they might in effect wash them out so they aren't so dark, nor purple.....this a theory. I took an ambien, hard to be coherent when my words are floating away as i type them....HOLD STILL ! Sigh....laterz



Do you think this would have been the case 10yrs ago? I ask because I think over the 10 years this hobby has grown exponentially. I felt that the hobby back in 1998/99 was more die hard true hobbyist, partly due to the price of frogs then, and people with real interest to support the hobby were the ones mainly around then. DISCLAIMER** not to say there isn't any around today, but I think the frogs have become very accessible to just about anyone now. 
And with that accessibility would come line breeding, and mix between species due to the numbers of frogs in the average home.

I guess Id say I felt the deep blue or purple looking Azureus more of the norm, than the sky blue. And possibly the sky blue was "a new look" within the species causing a fad, and then line breeding for the trait?

I dunno, lol, I just miss the old school dark blue looking ones. I guess they're what I grew up with, so its what Im used to seeing as opposed to the sky blue Azureus.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

sktdvs said:


> Do you think this would have been the case 10yrs ago? I ask because I think over the 10 years this hobby has grown exponentially. I felt that the hobby back in 1998/99 was more die hard true hobbyist, partly due to the price of frogs then, and people with real interest to support the hobby were the ones mainly around then. DISCLAIMER** not to say there isn't any around today, but I think the frogs have become very accessible to just about anyone now.
> And with that accessibility would come line breeding, and mix between species due to the numbers of frogs in the average home.
> 
> I guess Id say I felt the deep blue or purple looking Azureus more of the norm, than the sky blue. And possibly the sky blue was "a new look" within the species causing a fad, and then line breeding for the trait?
> ...


It has grown a lot but there were still a lot of people back then from what I understand, enough that many could have gotten blue sips, koetari, etc..and bred them with azuerus unknowingly. I remember seeing threads when I started asking if it was ok to breed them together or asking what morph is this? so my guess is it happened in at least a few cases and could have contributed to the perception...hard to say for sure though.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Of the wild Azureus I have seen most were darker blue with larger black spots, very few were light blue, maybe 2 out of 10. Obviously people choose what they like and I do believe over the years people have increased the % of which these frogs occur. My guess there have been a greater majority of the light blue ones kept, pampered, propogated, kept alive etc. Line breeding for the no spot type frogs in my opinion is greatly weakening Azureus, unfortunately I would guess that several of the Azureus BL's have been lost over he past 10 years or so.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

saruchan said:


> I haven't been in the hobby for to long but I know what you mean buy some being so blue they almost look purple! Personally I don't like the lighter blue ones this is my Azureus.


This is a perfect example of what most Azureus looked like in the begining of their availability.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

markpulawski said:


> This is a perfect example of what most Azureus looked like in the begining of their availability.


It is interesting that yet another pic being referred to as an example of what they used to look like, looks to have also been taken under the more red/purple hued standard aquarium lights rather then 6500k range bulbs which are probably more common in use today then they were years back. Again I'm not suggesting this entirely accounts for the perception just that it may, and in fact does *seem* to be playing some part.


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> It is interesting that yet another pic being referred to as an example of what they used to look like, looks to have also been taken under the more red/purple hued standard aquarium lights rather then 6500k range bulbs which are probably more common in use today then they were years back. Again I'm not suggesting this entirely accounts for the perception just that it may, and in fact does *seem* to be playing some part.



Yes the light does give it a little more purple look to it but it is a very deep blue making it look purple , Ill take another picture with different lighting. I was reading _Poison Dart Frogs_ And it said that azureus is a blue, black and purple frog you should check it out page 9. Then again I guess the color is in the eyes of the beholder


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

saruchan said:


> Yes the light does give it a little more purple look to it but it is a very deep blue making it look purple , Ill take another picture with different lighting. I was reading _Poison Dart Frogs_ And it said that azureus is a blue, black and purple frog you should check it out page 9. Then again I guess the color is in the eyes of the beholder


I've seen one I had take on a purple hue at certain angles and times...I don't really dispute that they are likely lighter overall then they used to be. Marty posted a pic on dartfrogz of pretty dark one. Maybe he'll share it here.


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

here it is...

There's no resize mod here, so I can't post the full size image. Sorry for linking to DF, but the images come out giant and break the page layout. I kept them large because we had a macro thread.

You can click the images and see the pic in the gallery...click it again in the gallery or use the magnifying glass to see detailed photos. In the full shot, he decided to take a leak ;-)





EDIT: I guess linking doesn't work either with the images :S 
Full size images: 
http://www.dartfrogz.com/gallery/data/501/azureus3.jpg
http://www.dartfrogz.com/gallery/data/501/azureus-head2048.jpg


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

btw, color should be pretty accurate, I killed any external lights and I calibrated the white balance.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Thanks Marty... One of my first ones looked a lot like that...not sure of the line as it was bought in a local pet shop or from a reptile show, I forget which. It was a bit of a runt compared to my others but the coloration was nice. The other one I bought with it was almost as dark too...and both were a bit darker then others I've had since.


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

Interesting discussion. Back in 2001-2002 when I worked at the NAIB I got to play with the founder azureus quite a bit. Some of the founders were the dark blue and some were the baby blue. These were not representative of different populations but just natural variation. 

I was always a fan of the lighter blue but that is just me. Here is a close to no spot sky blue we produced at Herpetologic a few years back.


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

Marty said:


> here it is...
> 
> There's no resize mod here, so I can't post the full size image. Sorry for linking to DF, but the images come out giant and break the page layout. I kept them large because we had a macro thread.
> 
> ...



I just bought one that looks much like this. I wasn't working with azureus until a few years ago, so while I'd heard that the frogs were getting lighter, I hadn't known there was this much of a difference. 

Can anyone give me a size comparison, though? The darker one I bought is twice the size of my other females. I named her Helga, because I figured that she's the Russian chick of frogs. I hope she doesn't sit on my male. It'd crush him, given that she's three times his size.


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

Finally got some good eggs out of my old school female. Can't wait to see what they're like when they've hatched.


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

My girls have some purple to them


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## Affordable Exotics (Mar 1, 2012)

yeah I noticed this too. They seem to get baby blue as adults.


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