# Parental Care



## AaronM (May 3, 2016)

Hi all. This is my first post here. And for someone who has no vivarium, dart frogs, or is even within 6 months of purchasing a vivarium and dart frogs, it's probably a really odd 'first post'. Did I mention i'm a total noob? What I should start off with is i'm creeping around on old threads and articles drinking info up and I don't have any intention of buying into this hobby without being well read on the do's and don't and know that I'll be able to care for my frogs. But in my forum/facebook creeping of this site and some poison dart frog facebook groups, I saw some poison dart frogs with tadpoles on their backs. And that fascinates me. A little background on me, I'm in college and I'm an environmental biology major. Ecosystems and animals fascinate me. So here's my question. When I decide to get a vivarium and get into this hobby and purchase a couple frogs and hopefully get a male and female, will they rear their own tadpoles when they reach maturity? I'm aware that most sites sell young frogs and they'd have to reach sexual maturity first before beginning courtship behaviors. But I find it really interesting that the frogs would actively take care of their own young and would be very interested in setting up a vivarium where that type of behavior could take place. So I guess my main question is this: Out of the "beginner" frogs (I have my eyes on the Azureus and 'bumble bee' frogs), which species are more likely to raise their own young. And then, what would a vivarium require to make sure they have the best chance of being successful. Thanks!


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Neither of those two darts" raise their young", they will tend to the eggs and transport the tadpoles to a water source. After that their job is done. Some people pull the tads and feed and raise them themselves. Others drop food into the deposit location. Some just let the tadpole develope living off the dead flies that drown and plant material in the water source. If you're looking for a species that feeds their young undeveloped eggs then look at pumilio.


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

there are also some thumbnails that are egg feeders.

"Fantastica group frogs (Ranitomeya fantastica, R. summersi, R. benedicta) do not egg feed their tads, despite what some care sheets say. R. ventrimaculata group frogs (including R. variabilis) do not egg feed either. Egg feeders include R. imitator, R. lamasi, R. flavovittata, and R. vanzolini, and their close relatives." -johnc

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ra...meya-non-obligate-egg-feeders.html#post620246


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## AaronM (May 3, 2016)

But these species are probably not something a beginner should have in his first though? I guess my hope was that I'd be able to set up a tank in such a way that these natural processes would occur. But if some species just take the young tadpoles to the water, what are the odds of them surviving? I've been looking at pictures of vivariums that look super realistic as far as a natural environment and it's really cool. Hopefully when I get a chance to get a tank going, I'll be able to recreate some of those features.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

I've sunk small cups, like the ones you get coleslaw in into the soil. They always had water in them and I had Tinc froglets pop up in the tank. It's depends what you want


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I identify with your question Aaron. Photos of leucomelas transporting tadpoles in lush terrariums on Brian's Tropical s many years ago put me on a path of no return! 

Both the leucs and azureus you mentioned being interested in, are very satisfying to watch in courtship, egg laying, and transport by the males. You just need to add some body of water, glass cups, plastic cups, a simple little corner pond or possibly a bit more elaborate water feature. Whatever you choose your chances are excellent at watching little mini frogs emerge. I particularly love how quickly they learn to compete with their parents for food.

I personally don't think obligates are that much more difficult, but with the big frogs.. they are more likely to be bolder and easier to see throughout the breeding process for your first rodeo


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

AaronM said:


> But these species are probably not something a beginner should have in his first though? I guess my hope was that I'd be able to set up a tank in such a way that these natural processes would occur. But if some species just take the young tadpoles to the water, what are the odds of them surviving? I've been looking at pictures of vivariums that look super realistic as far as a natural environment and it's really cool. Hopefully when I get a chance to get a tank going, I'll be able to recreate some of those features.


Although I wouldn't have considered myself a total 'noob', I started with R. imitator. I did my due diligence on learning all about the care requirements of these frogs and I've had absolutely no problems with them. In my opinion, they aren't considered a 'beginner' frog because they are small, fast and can be shy. At first you may not see them for days as they are settling in. That can cause a new keeper to stress and start moving things around trying to find them to make sure they're alive. That's NOT what you want to do 

My imitator pair is currently raising 6 tads of all different ages and there is also a froglet growing up in their viv too. I have found their social, courting and parental behaviour so fascinating. I highly recommend imitators or the other facultative egg feeders mentioned above.


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

AaronM said:


> But these species are probably not something a beginner should have in his first though?


why do you think some species arent for beginners? thumbnails are smaller and quicker then the frogs you mentioned but it's nothing you cant handle. pumilios will need a calcium enriched clay based substrate so their froglets can get calcium. i think you should pick the frogs you want to care for and then do research on how to care for them. theres lots of info here and lots of people willing to help.


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## AaronM (May 3, 2016)

macuser said:


> why do you think some species arent for beginners? thumbnails are smaller and quicker then the frogs you mentioned but it's nothing you cant handle. pumilios will need a calcium enriched clay based substrate so their froglets can get calcium. i think you should pick the frogs you want to care for and then do research on how to care for them. theres lots of info here and lots of people willing to help.


On the websites I've seen so far, (genesis exotics and Josh's Frogs) they group species as being good for beginners. The dendrobates are on the list as well as Phyllobates terribilis(i think). Anyways, the ranitomeya had descriptions as being for experienced keepers. I assumed they were more difficult to care for. More tricky to get the conditions just right, etc.


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

it took me way to long to find the below quote from Ed. i think you should ask them why certain frogs are for experienced keepers if you plan to make a decision based on information on their website.



Ed said:


> People also have to get away from suggesting the same 2-3 kinds of frogs for beginners. We've had trends of always suggesting leucomelas and other non-obligates which then contributes to the flood of frogs of certain kinds or populations. At this point the hobby has evolved to the cookbook stage so some of the frogs like pumilio really aren't any more difficult than the larger frogs or some of the thumbnails. If you have the food source for the froglets which most people do now, there isn't any real reason they can't rear them.
> 
> Ed


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...rfrogs-usafrog-frogsupply-73.html#post2446882


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## AaronM (May 3, 2016)

Thanks. By the way, I skimmed some on that thread that you linked to, besides the actual post itself. Very interesting. There's one person in the area that I know of that has them and he buys from USA Frogs. Because they're cheap and they have tons of colors. He says they're the best on the market. But I don't want to buy from them, nor do they have the ones that i've been looking at recently. The ranitomeya variabilis and imitator imitator frogs look gorgeous (Hopefully i didn't butcher the first one's name.) I know this is off topic, but where would I get frogs when the time comes. I'm probably 6 months out. and I know they have a reptile show in New Orleans, LA and Lafayette, LA. NOLA is pretty close to me. But the alternative I guess would be ordering some? The guy who told me about USA Frogs said he won't buy from Josh's frogs anymore because all his died but apparently USA frogs' frogs did the opposite. Anyways, if y'all will pardon me wandering off topic, would you point me in the right direction? thanks


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

AaronM said:


> On the websites I've seen so far, (genesis exotics and Josh's Frogs) they group species as being good for beginners. The dendrobates are on the list as well as Phyllobates terribilis(i think). Anyways, the ranitomeya had descriptions as being for experienced keepers. I assumed they were more difficult to care for. More tricky to get the conditions just right, etc.


Read my post above


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## AaronM (May 3, 2016)

erikm said:


> Read my post above


They're adorable. I'm seriously looking at the R. variabilis or imitator imitator if I ever get a chance to get them. My life is a bit transient right now. I want to settle down a bit and make sure I'll be able to properly care for them before diving in. And i'm a very hands off type of pet owner. I don't do cats or dogs or anything that requires tons of hands on maintenance. Grooming, walking, etc. Nope. I like display pets. I previously had zebra finches and adored them. They just flew around and did their thing in their aviary and all I had to do was feed and water them and enjoy.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

AaronM said:


> They're adorable. I'm seriously looking at the R. variabilis or imitator imitator if I ever get a chance to get them. My life is a bit transient right now. I want to settle down a bit and make sure I'll be able to properly care for them before diving in. And i'm a very hands off type of pet owner. I don't do cats or dogs or anything that requires tons of hands on maintenance. Grooming, walking, etc. Nope. I like display pets. I previously had zebra finches and adored them. They just flew around and did their thing in their aviary and all I had to do was feed and water them and enjoy.


Yes take your time and do it right for sure. My post was more directed to the fact that ranitomeya are really not that hard to keep as long as you do your reading.


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