# My mixed frog tank



## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I just thought that I would post that my frogs are doing well. I have not notice any signs of problems. They grow fast. I tried feeding them silkworms but only one of the frogs ate them. I think once they are full grown they might be more inclined.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

What kind of frogs are in there?


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

D. azureus and D. leucs


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Give it time...


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## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

woodland park zoo has that same mix in a pretty good size tank.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

How long has this tank been set up?


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## dom (Sep 23, 2007)

how big is your tank?


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## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

i dont know if your talking to me or bocomo but the zoo viv is like 5'x5'x7' feet if memory serves me correct. And i think has one leuc one azuerues and one terribilis.


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## dom (Sep 23, 2007)

i was actually talking to bocomo. but damn thats a nice enclosure.. oneday ill have an setup like that maybe a whole room thats a rainforest.!!!!!!


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Mike, if I remember right this tank has been set up about one whole week or so, maybe two.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Let's do some math. 

52 weeks in a year
PDFs are good for about 20 years of life
So a total of 1040 weeks during their life
Figuring this has been set up for 2 weeks, we're looking at 0.19% of their life span. 

0.19%...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I wouldn't have even guessed it was that high of a percentage, and considering the living situations I think you should cut that 20 years down a bit (lot).


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

They have been in the tank for over a month. It is a 50gallon


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> They have been in the tank for over a month. It is a 50gallon


I'd like to see a pic.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Ill take a picture


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Figuring 5 weeks we come to 0.48%

The point I'm getting at is that you're no where even close to giving them enough time for you to draw *any *form of conclusion.

I wouldn't even start to think of conclusions before you hit the 25% mark, which is 5 years. By that point the frogs have been adults long enough to have hit homeostasis.


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## neudl (Oct 18, 2007)

Without (hopefully) getting dragged back into this debate, I should note that I take my son to the Woodland Park Zoo on a regular basis, and it has two dart frog exhibits. One, which is maybe 36” square has just D. auratus, which are super fat and appear healthy. The other is the large display with D. leucomelas, D. azureus, and, supposedly, P. terribilis (although I have never seen them). Despite the size of the enclosure, I have often seen the D. azureus wrestling with and pinning the leucomelas. So, despite the size of the exhibit, I have my doubts about whether these species are peacefully and happily cohabitating.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

how do you post a pic?[/img]


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I find it easier to open two windows, both on dendroboard. Assuming it has been uploaded to your gallery, in one window, go to your gallery, select the pic, and right click on it. Select 'copy image location'.

Now, in the other window, post a reply, then type









preview to make sure it showed up.



As a side note, you posted Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 3:23 pm, asking when you could add the frogs to the tank. Its December 17th. So, did you already have the frogs in the viv when you originally posted, asking if it was alright to add them?


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## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

i had no idea the zoo animals were fighting. Every time i went they were doing their own thing. Was the tinc acting out in aggression because the luec was possibly the same sex or does the tinc simply can not stand to see another frog in its territory? I wanted to set up a very large mixed display tank when i buy my own home with azureus being part of that mix. Are they always the bully of the tank no matter what the size?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

johnnymo said:


> Are they always the bully of the tank no matter what the size?


That would need to be answered by all those out there who have mixed Azureus with other species. Anyone? Maybe someone from a zoo can step up on this one..........


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

If this is the same group you were asking about on Nov. 26ish to see if they were OK to be added to their viv( which I assume it is since that was leucs and azureus too), that's 3 weeks, not over a month, but the point is that this is not even close to enough time to form an opinion on, especially if they are still juvies.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Wasn't ONE thread on this more than enough? :wink:


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I placed the frogs in the tank a day or two before thanksgiving. So about a month for those that keeping track of every move I make and then calculating death rate. I'm ok with that, I like the attention I receive on this forum whether it positive or negative(mostly). 

I still having trouble finding out how to upload an image. Is there somewhere with instructions. ?

zbrinks could you tell me how to load an image in my gallery.

I know everyone is eager to see my tank, so I apologize for not getting these pics uploaded.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Here you go Bocomo.
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19179

Hope that helps.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

Even zoo's have their problems with mixed tanks. There's no shame in asking about mixing species. Most uneducated people do and should, including myself when I first started. Whether or not you take the advice of those more experienced than you is your choice. If the lives of a few animals are what it takes to prove your theories correct or not, then I sincerely hope you prove everyone else wrong...

That said, if your doing this for attention or just because you enjoy getting into a pissing match with others then I have little respect for your motives.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ore+mixing


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I don't see the box where it says create/order my own albums


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## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

if you are just trying to post a quick pic of the viv I normally go to http://imageshack.us/ and upload the pic. Then i copy the image url and paste it in using the "img" button that is located an inch above the text box when you post a message.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Here are some pictures


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## jeffreyvmd (Oct 16, 2004)

*woodland park zoo*

Had a friend who visited Seattle a few weeks ago and that exhibit was closed when she was there. No frogs but they said the tank was huge and beautiful.


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## neudl (Oct 18, 2007)

It is a beautiful exhibit. The last couple of time I have been there, the frogs have been off display. By the way Jeff, the D. auratus I got from you are doing beautifully, so thanks for brining them up.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Your landscape looks pretty spartan- if you want this 'experiment' to work, I'd stack the odds and introduce lots of leaf litter and more densely plant to give refuge to those frogs. They seem a little exposed. Those azureus are going to get pretty physical with the leucs as they get older, I can guarantee that.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Will do, thanks


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

It'll probably also work a bit better with something other than pebbles as substrate.
What is that black cord coming out of the viv door?

Rich


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> What is that black cord coming out of the viv door?


I hadn't noticed that till you mentioned it, Rich. What is that, Bocomo?

Another question: what is the footprint of that tank?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Cord for the water pump. If you look on the back wall you can see the stream of water, or what apears to be so.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

The black cord is from a fish tank heater that I placed below the water level. With winter I thought it might be necessary to add some additional heat and make sure the water does not get too cold at night. The heat from light warms the tank to no more than 75-76 degrees during the day. 
I use a compact flourescent bulb(spiral), 55w, 6500k. I found it in a Farmtek catalog. Rather inexpensive compared lights from AH Supply.

I like the look of gravel as opposed to some other substrate.

I havent made base for the tank yet, so I have it setting on a end table.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

water pump cord is not visible.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> The black cord is from a fish tank heater that I placed below the water level. With winter I thought it might be necessary to add some additional heat and make sure the water does not get too cold at night. The heat from light warms the tank to no more than 75-76 degrees during the day.
> I use a compact flourescent bulb(spiral), 55w, 6500k. I found it in a Farmtek catalog. Rather inexpensive compared lights from AH Supply.
> 
> I like the look of gravel as opposed to some other substrate.
> ...


No need for a heater or heat mat . Low-mid 70s daytime and low-mid 60s at night is fine. 
I was refering to what would work best down the road for the frogs when mentioning the rocks, not so much what looks good. Taking the cord out of the door will enhance the looks tons , IMHO.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Rich, 

What type of substrate would be better frogs and why?

I'll take the heater out. I was just worried that temp might drop too much at night.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> What type of substrate would be better frogs and why?


Sphagnum moss, coco fiber, coco husk chips, leaf litter. I think that a richer organic substrate will encourage good bacteria and promote populations of microfauna (springtails, isopods), not to mention a better growing medium for your plants. Leaf litter will give lots of little hiding spots for your frogs as juveniles and provide hunting grounds as well. 

I'm sure Rich will offer his experience as well.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I tend to use mostly peat brick. Tons of tannins and very fibrous for draining and not 'breaking down'. Yup, TONS and TONS of leaf litter.........there really is a lot of great beginner info available with a bit of digging.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i have a tank thats been up for 2 months with azureus and leucs in it, they do perfectly fine. no fighting, no stress, all look healthy and eat a TON. however, mine have more room and WAY more plants and hiding places. not only that but the leucs are bigger(not by much). there all very small, azureus being about an inch and leucs more like 1 1/8 inch. im removing the azureus into there own tank after christmas just to be sure tho.

so if your going to keep them all together in the same tank still, put in some more plants(alot) and coconut huts and then get some coco fiber and leaf litter and lay that down with some moss

 good luck


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

oh ya and they dont have that exibit there now, iwas there on november 26th. they did have a tank with 8 full grown auratus in it, quite nice looking to. i dont think it should have had eight in it tho. maybe 6.


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## the Dregs (Dec 16, 2007)

I thought the fellow from saurian.net reccomended nothing but plants growing on gravel. Is he wrong? I honestly want to know, as i have got the majority of my dart frog learning from reading his site.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I'll stick with gravel. Tropical plants don't need dirt to grow in. I'm sure gravel will harbour the same beneficial organisms that any other substrate would.

I will get more plants and add some leaf litter. I just don't like the coco huts, they look unnatural in the viv. But if they will prevent my 'experiment' from failing I will get some too. 

Its unreal how much money I have poured into this. Oh well, the frogs are awesome.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

A good healthy layer of leaf litter will definitely help- a few inches worth. You'll get your pebble substrate and the leaf litter will provide organics to fuel the microfauna populations and hiding/hunting grounds for the frogs. If you don't like coco huts, maybe some cork bark tubes or similar hides?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Coco huts do not look natural, true. But neither does a gravel bottom. The frogs in the wild would live in many cases mostly on leaf litter and soil. I noticed in your pictures that all of the animals were hudled in the non-gravel sections. Gravel will also not encourage spontanious plant growth, the misc. plants that tend to pop up here and there. I just dont think your frogs will like it, it isn't natural for them.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Is your choice to use gravel an aesthetic one? I agree with Mywebbedtoes, it just doesn't look natural to me either. Part of the appeal of keeping PDFs (among many) is attempting to create mini eco-systems that they might encounter in the wild. Gravel ain't it!


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Myweb., you are pretty quick to jump to conclusions based on a few pictures taken at the same time. They are always hopping around on the gravel. The don't seem to mind it at all. I disagree about gravel not being natural. Thanks for the opinion though.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Coco huts might not look natural.. but neither is what you are doing...



Leucs









Azureus


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Nice maps mod. I know where they come from, i have done plenty of research. 

Acutally they are living in tanks all over the world. So why not post a picture of the world?


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

:lol: "nice maps mod" :lol: maybe I should just call you idiot?

Nice tank idiot.. you where talking about things looking natural there is no way putting 2 animals from different locations of the world into a little glass box with fish tank gravel and a couple of plants could look natural :roll: 

As for the research had you done enough of the right kind you wouldn't be keeping these two species together :wink:


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Myweb., you are pretty quick to jump to conclusions based on a few pictures taken at the same time... I disagree about gravel not being natural.


I will give you that. But it is still not natural to the frogs. In the wild they dont live on islands in a sea of gravel. Grevel = hard, COLD. Most of us use floors that are softer and above all allow for hiding spots. I just dont think it is a welcoming substrate. We are just trying to point out what might work better. And then there is MJ's point.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Ok

Just cuz your against mixing doesn't mean I'm an idiot.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I'll repeat my question: was the choice to use gravel an aesthetic one? 

You may want to reconsider your substrate choice for the benefit of the frogs.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

The frogs would also appreciate a soil layer, as well as a nice thick layer of leaf litter. The combination of the two would allow for better plant growth, larger populations of microfauna, as well as provide many more hiding places for the frogs to seek shelter from each other, which is needed, especially when they mature.

It would be easy to do, just remove the frogs temporarily, remove everything except the gravel and background from the tank, lay down a layer of hardware cloth, then a 2-4 inch layer of viv/soil mix, followed by a 2-4 inch layer of leaf litter. I use maple or another fast-decomposing layer first, followed by oak or magnolia, as these hold up better in vivs. A soil mix that has worked great for me is 2 parts coco bedding, 2 parts orchid bark, 1 part sphagnum moss.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Flyangler,

My choice of gravel was not based asethetics. I found it reccomended on some ones dart frog sites. I like the idea of gravel rather than soil. Plants will still grow in it. 

Like I said before I will add more leafs and plants. I just don't want to miss with soil.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> Flyangler,
> 
> I just don't want to miss with soil.


But you won't miss with soil....you will miss without soil.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Sorry typo, mess


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

This board loves me, I can tell.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I guess I'm just a dumb idiot.


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## EricT (Nov 10, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> I guess I'm just a dumb idiot.


Hey Bocomo ... To each thier own ... You are in America I assume , so do as you please.. You have that right ... The issue here is this .. You are on a board asking questions about a hobbie you have interest in. The board just happens to be full of experienced keepers who have a ton more experience and knowledge than you and I both. You are free to do as you please, but for me , because I love animlas so much I research exstensively , and if I find others who have more experience and say that one thing is bad for my animals as compared to another , I will avoid the harmful thing just to err on the side of caution. 

I am also interested in the "site" you got the gravel info from, the one that says it will be fine.. Also keep in mind that I can find you a site that says anything I want it too ... I could start up a site thats explains Quantum Physics , it doesn't mean I know a thing about them. 

This message is in absolutely no way meant to be hostile , and hopefully you won't take it that way. Just trying to add my 2 cents ... after all I have that right as well...

Ultimately I hope that your animals will live long happy lives no matter what , and I hope that you enjoy them for Years to come...

I am in the beggining stages of this hobby as well and with all the information on this site and the great opinions of the folks here I am sure I will enjoy my animals for a very long time...

Hopefully the tone of this thread has not turned you away , but perhaps encouraged you to research and maybe reconsider some choices... at the end of the day no one can tell you what to do , they can only suggest.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

another idea for a natural looking hide would be to use "good stuff" and then carve out a holein it and then paint it grey. ta da! and nifty little cave.

why exactly do you not like the coco bedding??


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I the information on the gravel as a substrate was from http://www.saurian.net. 

I appreciate everyones suggestions, but a moderator calling me an idiot. 
I know what I'm doing is not welcomed by some here on the this forum but it is an open forum. So if you mods really don't like my mixed frog tank just kick me off. 

That great stuff sound like too much work I will stick with cork bark hides.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Wasn't calling u an idiot just because you are mixing, It's because of your general attitude towards people who have been doing this for YEARS and the advice they have given you..


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## phrakt (Jan 5, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> So if you mods really don't like my mixed frog tank just kick me off.


I don't think it's just the mixing issue... it seems to me like you discard every possible advice that people give you to improve your setup, or choose to do the exact opposite of what has been proven to work, without providing any kind of logical reasoning behind your choices.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

From Patrick's site, for those interested:



> In the first, most simple design, the bottom of the tank is simply filled with gravel, and the gravel shaped to form the desired landscape. A recession can be formed in one of the front corners to create a pond. To cover the gravel I use sheet moss. This product can be obtained at garden supply stores or nurseries. It is dried moss, which has been pulled from rotting logs and the ground in moist areas. If provided strong light and high humidity it may begin to grow again. Otherwise you should be prepared to replace it every six months or so, since it will rot. A superior product for covering the floor of the tank is live moss, available from a variety of terrarium supply companies. You may also be able to collect this moss yourself. In some cases I also leave the floor of the tank without any cover, and spread dead leaves around the tank. Oak, or magnolia or some other larger leaf, which will not rot too quickly, would be best. I rinse these in water, and collect them from a site, which I am confident, has not been contaminated with pesticides or other toxins. A misting system can be incorporated, or hand misting, to clean the leaves, and provide daily showers. The excess water will accumulate in the pond, where it can be periodically siphoned off. Please note that one possible consequence of having almost any body of water in the tank would be the possibility of having a frog drown in the water. In particular the tinctorius group frogs have been known to drown, especially when there are two females in the tank. Females pin one another to the floor, and then sit on their rivals' head! When this happens in a water feature the loser usually drowns.


Such setups work (the EU hobby tends to do lot on gravel, if memory serves) but I'll stick with organic substrates. Bocomo, the real plus to using creating naturalistic vivaria with organic substrates (in addition to the reasons I outlined above) is that the system almost self-regulates...the water is purified through the substrate, microfauna helps with decomp, the frog waste provides fertilizer for the plants, etc. Really requires very little maintainance if you provide a good drainage layer and have a way of getting the excess water out of the system.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Just because I not using soil for my tank? Where have I discarded advice?I want to find it.

I'm listening to everyone.

What kind of logical reasoning do you want?


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## the Dregs (Dec 16, 2007)

I am new here myself, but it does seem that gravel only as well as mixing species is advocated by saurian.net. He is a knowledgeable fellow, no?

Bocomo, I hope your tank goes well, I am starting mine in the near future as a single species tank simply because that's what I want. But I will be keeping an eye out for your posts on the health of your tank and it's different species, because I find it very interesting.

(so not everyone here hates you)


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## whatever111 (Nov 16, 2006)

I agree it's disgusting that a mod has called you an idiot, I kinda feel like mods should be above that kind of thing? That said though, if you are going to mix species, at least do it smartly...don't mix species that can hybridize (unless you want to keep track of all the frogs you produce and make sure they don't get in the hobby), and don't mix a frog that does well in groups (leucs) with a frog that doesn't (azureus).


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Peat plates/bricks are the favored substrates in the EU :wink: Gravel only tanks really are few and far between and I don't know any one in my circle of friends who use gravel.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Bocomo said:


> Just because I not using soil for my tank? Where have I discarded advice?I want to find it.
> 
> I'm listening to everyone.
> 
> What kind of logical reasoning do you want?


You are hearing, but not listening. Nearly every suggestion on here has been for the better good of the frogs. You address it, say "eh, I don't like that idea" or "that's too much work" and discard it. That's where people get these comments from. If you notice in Patrick's (saurian) description, he says he uses gravel covered with moss, substrate, leaves, whatever... I don't see where he says leave it bare gravel. This is your own concoction, so don't attribute it to him. What this comes down to is one of a few things and I am not sure which... you are either the type of person who won't listen to anyone and does whatever they want anyways, or you are the type of person who thrives on negative attention or both. It comes across as arrogant and that you are unwilling/unable to accept critique. If that's true, you're gonna have a long hard life but that's neither here nor there... the frogs are the concern. You posted this thread to gloat that your frogs weren't dead like everyone in the other thread said they were going to be. The mistake you made is that you have/had no clue how long it would take to see any noticeable effects, and so you posted a pic of what you thought was a good setup and your setup and your husbandry techniques came into question. In the end, 98% of people who have posted setups like that have gotten suggestions on what will work better and they have said thanks and fixed or upgraded them. You, aside from the admission that you might add leaf litter, basicaly said "eh, you guys don't know what you're talking about... I'll just do it my way". I'll say it if nobody else will... either heed some of the suggestions and concerns that much more experienced froggers give you and be humble that you don't know everything or just don't post anymore useless threads that their only intention is for you to gloat about your 1 week of success or to inflame people. This reminds me so much of PDFanatic...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

the Dregs said:


> but it does seem that gravel only as well as mixing species is advocated by saurian.net. He is a knowledgeable fellow, no?


Show me where it says a gravel only substrate is good please, because I haven't seen it yet but I may just have missed it. If you read Patricks (saurian.net) site, it does not advocate mixing species, but says it can be done if the person is experienced and knows what to look for. Patrick is very knowledgeable and experienced, but he's also done this a long time and knows what he is doing. I kinda think that part of his site should say "kid's we are professionals, so don't try this at home..", but that's his choice.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

sbreland,

You must follow every move I make. Why?
I never attributed anything to anyone. I just said that is where I got my information from. You read into my post way too much and then blow out into huge proportions. You should just ignore me.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

You should address the questions and comments rather than evade them... I try to ignore you, but for the animals sake I have hopes that you are a sensible person and not a complete idiot and will listen to good sense... are you going to prove me wrong?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

He's already addressed that Stace: 


Bocomo said:


> I guess I'm just a dumb idiot.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo, 
I can't speak for everybody but this is how I view your attitude towards Darts. Tell me if I am off. 
You were attracted to Darts because of their beauty. You did a little bit of site hopping to see what people put Darts in and what they usually eat in captivity. You ordered your Darts from a breeder who either had no idea you were mixing or gave you a 'not what is suggested but can be done with a lot of thought' statement. You did no substantial research on : quarantine, fecals, parasites, mixed species aggression and other possible troubles with mixing, plants, substrate, temps, ......I could keep going. It is far easier FOR YOU to do a tank the way you want to with the animals you want and be done. Period.

A quick way to defend yourself is not to say "screw you guys, I'm goin' home" but to show any and all benefits to the FROGS with each of your husbandry decisions. Do that and we can have a conversation and you will gain my respect.

The bottom line is that with this statement from you;

"I don't care what anyone has to say about mixing. Unless you want to offer guidance I suggest you all don't waste your time posting about mixing. "

you have exhausted most of us that were more than willing to add helpful experiences, actual real-life been there done it type stuff. The only reason we hang around is that we hate seeing bad husbandry thrown in all our faces.
Good luck . Im outa here.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok all lets let this die. I think Rich put it about as well as it could be put and continuing this conversation is pointless.


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## the Dregs (Dec 16, 2007)

sbreland said:


> the Dregs said:
> 
> 
> > but it does seem that gravel only as well as mixing species is advocated by saurian.net. He is a knowledgeable fellow, no?
> ...


 His site lists if the species is compatible to be housed with other species under every frog description. He also says that plants and moss will grow fine over bare gravel...which is exactly what Bocomo is doing.

The fact is that Bocomo has got advice from a very reputable person and a very reputable board. The two happen to differ. It is completely alright to disagree with the fellow, but coming down on him so hard and calling him names is very low browed.

As a newcomer here myself, I find it very discouraging that what seems to be the #1 place on the net for a dart frog community is so openly hostile.

Here is a link to a set up terrarium on the saurian.net site. i can certainly see Bocomo's logic.

http://www.saurian.net/images05/products/Acrylicorig1005.jpg

(I edited this because on second read sbreland's tone was a whole lot nicer than I got on first read through. Sorry about that if you happened to read i it!


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

This is why I said enough... This a rather passionate topic that comes up all the time. To the point that many of the members are very frustrated with it. There is more than a bit of information here on it already and yet the topics appear.

*Search found 722 matches for "mixing"*

Fact is by the majority of the hobby it is not recommended, the reasons are clear, proven and have been discussed to death. If someone choses to do it then that is obviously their choice, but flaming it hear after asking for advise is nothing short of trolling and looking for argument. Its like telling a new mother not to use a car seat. Its just not going to change her mind and for good reason.

The Dregs, I am not sure if you have read the whole thread but at the beginning people were rather helpful. The fact that the advise was not taken and questioned over and over again is how this topic got out of hand. Almost like the individual was looking for an argument. Just think how you may treat someone who came into your house and started questioning everything you own and care about. This is a very helpful community but it is unfair to label us based on this thread.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Sorry, I really tried to resist jumping into this love fest but can't. I'm not going to get into the mixing issue or the bastard frogs this viv will produce. But I did want to mention that my P. bicolor have been in a gravel only substrate viv for a decade. I set the viv up as a "temporary" but liked it so well I've kept it going for 10 years. Gravel ain't my first choice in a sustrate, but I have no issues with it provided there is leaf litter and hide cover. I also have a friend who has been producing reticulatus in gravel substrate vivs for years. If you have red-backed reticulatus in your collection, there is a very good chance your frogs are decendents of these. But like others have mentioned, I really do think a layer of leaf litter is mandatory. The gravel is fine and as leaf litter decomposes, it quickly forms a humus layer over the gravel anyway.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Well, I felt it obligatory to at least respond to comments directed at me, but at this point I feel it's worthless now. There is so much here that I would like to say, but some people only hear what they want and twist things in all sorts of ways, so I will take Kyle's advice and bow out.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok thats enough I attempted to not have to lock this thread but some people would just not let it die. 

If anyone has any questions please shoot me a PM.


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