# Number of PDF Hobbyists in the WORLD....



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Big topic and hard to approach but I think it's on everyone's mind...

Just how many of US are there???

I've heard a number thrown around for Germany and the Netherlands, of @ 10,000 

There are 7,000 registered members here on Dendroboard but I doubt that many are actively keeping frogs. Do you think there are 3,000 hobbyists in the US ?

How aboot Canada? 1,000 ? Any of our fellow Canucks care to take a stab?

Asia?? Supposedly Japan / Hong kong is big.....

Thoughts?>


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

maybe 25,000 worldwide would be my guess


----------



## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Well I can't throw out any numbers but I am willing to bet Japan has the least amount. Most simply do not have the room, and just about every person I have met in Japan dislikes the idea of having frogs in the residence. I find this to be contradictory to their fondness of strange things lol.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Out of the 7,000 members here how many actually post daily or even weekly/monthly?
Maybe 50-100?

Anyway, theres 3 members here in Connecticut that I know of!
Couldn`t even begin to come up with a total number.

John


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

What are we considering a hobbyist? Is the person who picks up some frogs and a 10g viv at a show a hobbyists? If so, I'd bet there are several thousand in the US alone. I do not think that the majority of people keeping dart frogs as pets are represented on Dendroboard. Maybe 10-20% of dart keepers I've talked to have even heard of the site, previous to me mentioning it.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

zBrinks said:


> What are we considering a hobbyist? Is the person who picks up some frogs and a 10g viv at a show a hobbyists? If so, I'd bet there are several thousand in the US alone. I do not think that the majority of people keeping dart frogs as pets are represented on Dendroboard. Maybe 10-20% of dart keepers I've talked to have even heard of the site, previous to me mentioning it.


for the sake of this discussion....anyone that keeps a dart frog, we can call a hobbyist.

See....I would guess differently.From all the Reptile shows I've attended and people there that I've spoken to.....I would guess that at least 60% of U.S dart keepers (not newbs) are either on DB or have at least heard / seen it.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> for the sake of this discussion....anyone that keeps a dart frog, we can call a hobbyist.
> 
> See....I would guess differently.From all the Reptile shows I've attended and people there that I've spoken to.....I would guess that at least 60% of U.S dart keepers (not newbs) are either on DB or have at least heard / seen it.


 Most of the experienced 'old timers' that I have spoken to are aware of Dendroboard, but the majority do not actively participate here. Look at the people active on Frognet, for instance. Or many of the people that contributed to the old ADG newsletters.

I also think that 'newbs' make up the majority of this hobby at the moment. The dendrobatid hobby is undergoing substantial growth, even with the recession. With the recent publication of several poison frog husbandry books, aimed at less experienced hobbyists, many are taking the plunge after reading such a book, as opposed to researching on the internet. It would be interesting to see sales figures for Amanda and Greg's book.

I vend at 4-6 reptile shows a month in the Michigan-Ohio-Indiana area, and speak to many new froggers at the shows. I mention Dendroboard to all of them, but I see very few actually make an account and post. We can't forget about the many 'lurkers' as well - I lurked for close to 2 years before making an account. 
Also, from talking to workers at the Detroit Zoo's Amphibiville, you'd be surprised how many visitors talk about owning dart frogs of their own. I was there a couple months back helping to put together an exhibit, and in the course of two hours, met 3 visitors who kept darts (one for almost a decade) - none of which had ever posted on Dendroboard. 
I also manage the Michigan Dendrobatid Group, and of the 70 members on the mailing list, well over half of them have never posted on Dendroboard to the best of my knowledge (I would guess closer to 70%).

Well Dendroboard is a great source of information, and a big contribution to the hobby, I by no means think it represents the dendrobatid hobby as a whole, especially by numbers.


----------



## Omead (Mar 21, 2009)

So far I've only met 1 other person here in Memphis TN that has dart frogs and she got hers from a show a few months ago. When I talked to her she said she had never heard of Dendroboard and I told her she should definately hop on here sometime. It was cool to finally meet someone that lives around me that's into these little guys and I hope I run into more hobbyists nearby. There's probably a lot more hobbyists out there than we think!


----------



## BChambers (Sep 12, 2009)

Based on my experience at expos and with herp clubs, as well as being a former retail herp shop owner, I'd guess a minimum of 70,000-100,000 KEEPERS in the U.S. alone. I don't mean serious hobbyists, just folks who keep at least a frog or two in a viv in their home.


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I know of about 10 PDF hobbyists worldwide. That's how many I've met. As far as I'm concerned the rest of you are all figments of my imagination.


----------



## Chicago Frog Man (Mar 5, 2009)

This is tough, and I don't know how we can ever get an accurate number, even an accurate estimate. I go to a local show in the Chicago suburbs twice a month, and they have primarily reptiles and snakes, but only 1-2 Dart Frog vendors. Then I went to the big MidWest Frog Fest that is held once a year and I found the turnout to be poor on both the vendors part and attendance. I expected a larger turnout. Chicago being a large city, I have only found 2 other froggers that I have spoken to. Would think I would have come across more, unless froggers are more anti social, hiding in their basements playing with bugs and prefer plants to people! Lol. 

On the other hand, when I read Patrick Nabor's website on shipping frogs how he ships "over 2,000 frogs a year." That makes it sound like there are a ton of froggers out there if you consider a few other major breeders probably doing the same numbers, in addition to all the other hobbist/breeders selling their frogs also. 

Interesting topic, but gives me a headache trying to figure out an answer, or how to come about an accurate answer.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

BChambers said:


> Based on my experience at expos and with herp clubs, as well as being a former retail herp shop owner, I'd guess a minimum of 70,000-100,000 KEEPERS in the U.S. alone. I don't mean serious hobbyists, just folks who keep at least a frog or two in a viv in their home.


Do you mean 100,000 people have a type of frog?

I was just trying for dart frogs......100,000 seems way high, but hey, that's why I started the thread.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I think it may be safe to say that whatever number we have in North America....there is at least double that in Europe.


----------



## BChambers (Sep 12, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Do you mean 100,000 people have a type of frog?
> 
> I was just trying for dart frogs......100,000 seems way high, but hey, that's why I started the thread.


Nope-I mean just darts.

Think of it-100,000 translates to only 2000 per state. I used to sell at least 100 dart frogs a year in my shop in Upstate NY. If there were ONLY 10 other stores in the entire state doing the same numbers, then you have 1000 darts sold in just a single year. Actually, in our city alone there were three other stores which commonly sold darts (not in the numbers we did, I'm sure). Just extrapolate and you get a pretty huge number over the entire country.

Remember, the vast majority of these people have little or no interest in the "hobby"-they are pet keepers with just one or two decorative terrariums in the home, and maybe a book or a local retailer (such as myself) to help them along. You'll never hear from these folks on the internet, yet they make up the majority of keepers.


----------



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

tachikoma said:


> Well I can't throw out any numbers but I am willing to bet Japan has the least amount. Most simply do not have the room, and just about every person I have met in Japan dislikes the idea of having frogs in the residence. I find this to be contradictory to their fondness of strange things lol.


Japan and Europe are actually the two primary "heavy hitters" when it comes to Dendrobatid importations. The U.S. tends to get their leftovers and/or offspring.


----------



## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> Japan and Europe are actually the two primary "heavy hitters" when it comes to Dendrobatid importations. The U.S. tends to get their leftovers and/or offspring.


I don't mean to sound skeptical and I don't doubt you but I have never seen Japanese imports listed for sale/trade or heard of a Japanese line. Unless it goes through Japan to Europe then to US? I only know of 3 people in Japan that have frogs and they ordered from Europe. In my time there I have never seen any for sale. If you know of or have heard of any place to get them in Japan I would appreciate if you could let me know, I have a few friends that would love that info! As you can imagine they pay a hefty shipping cost


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Interesting about Japan.....they are so interested in exotic animals, weird insects, turtles.....so it's seems natural for the appreciation of small colourfull frogs.

as far as Germany and Europe...

Maybe our own Maureen Winter can comment


----------



## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Check out ƒ„ƒhƒNƒKƒGƒ‹‚Æ‚©‚¦‚é‚Æƒuƒ�ƒ�ƒŠƒA‚Ì‚±‚Æ‚È‚çƒ�ƒCƒ‹ƒhƒXƒJƒC. Japan has had an active community of Dendrobatid keepers for well over a decade, maybe two. I don't keep up with the hobby in the US that well, much less Japan. 

Best,

Chuck



tachikoma said:


> I don't mean to sound skeptical and I don't doubt you but I have never seen Japanese imports listed for sale/trade or heard of a Japanese line. Unless it goes through Japan to Europe then to US? I only know of 3 people in Japan that have frogs and they ordered from Europe. In my time there I have never seen any for sale. If you know of or have heard of any place to get them in Japan I would appreciate if you could let me know, I have a few friends that would love that info! As you can imagine they pay a hefty shipping cost


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Boondoggle said:


> I know of about 10 PDF hobbyists worldwide. That's how many I've met. As far as I'm concerned the rest of you are all figments of my imagination.


HAHAHA, good one.

i would guess around 25,000 to 35,000 world wide. we have to remember there are probably quite a few people in south america that like to keep these as pets when they find them too. does australia have any frog keepers??

as far as japan....check out this guy:
Tamamizu.frogroom.html


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Even though thousands of dart frogs are sold every year in the U.S., there are probably huge loses do to inexperienced people buying frogs they are not prepared to take care of (especially in breeding enough ffs for their frogs). I believe that there are probably less than 1,000 serious keepers in the U.S. (people with more than a few tanks set-up).

I could be completely wrong, though. Richard.


----------



## BChambers (Sep 12, 2009)

I actually agree-if you're talking about serious hobbyists/breeders, I'd say 1-2% of the total at best. 2000 sounds about right.


----------



## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Chuck and Adam! I have passed the info along to my friends and they really appreciate it. 
I believe back a long time ago maybe 11 yrs ago or something I ran into that wild sky page before. The name sounds very familiar, back when I first started getting hardcore into frogs I searched out every single page I could find on darts and hylidae and physically printed out the entire websites and put every page into it's own page protector and into a huge binder for my own personal reference book. Good thing I did that at my moms office good printer and unlimited paper and ink. There is a lot of useful info in that old book that gone now because websites closed down. For instance I remember when the standard price for azureus froglet used to be $150 and was considered an "Advanced" frog. Now they can be had for $40 and are considered a "beginner" frog. And whatever frog is hot at the moment is what cost the most and it goes in waves kind of like fashion. hahaha. Anyway didn't mean to sidetrack the thread with memory lane. Thanks again for the info.

James


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I would guess hobbyist in the US and Canada, is around 50, 000-75,000. I have worked with other herpetological societies besides my local group and there is a larger growth again in the novice herper with only one or two species. If you go to the large shows like NARBC you see folks from all walks of life and all levels of experience. 

I have spoken with several people who have never heard of Dendroboard, nor do they have any interest in online communities. I also have agree with Richard on a large mortality rate. If you look at how many people are producing frogs, prices have stabilized, and a lot of frogs are still available for sale. Looking at Dendroboard I would guess the average life span of a hobbyist is 3-5 years before they are out. 

Worldwide is much trickier. Small herps are huge in East Asia (Korea, Japan). And we have a lot of Europeans to thank for paving the way of keeping Dendrobatidae.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I was chatting with Josh (Josh's Frogs - Herps Feeders and All The Reptile Supplies You need) today, and he has 5,941 registered accounts (different purchasers) on his website since it opened in Nov. 2004, with approximately 13,000 purchases total. He guessed that around 90% of these purchases were dart frog related, with around 3000 total dart frogs sold in that time period. That does not include people who stopped by to pick up supplies/frogs in person, people who purchased supplies/frogs at shows, etc.
As a side note, I would guess that around 1/4 to 1/3 of dart frog keepers in the US maintain mixed tanks. That being said - I have only talked to a few people maintaining mixed tanks that I could call successful. Most people I talk to with mixed tanks lose/have lost frogs.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

The only person I have ever met that owned or owns dart frogs and actually knew what dendroboard was/is was the person that introduced me to the board. Of the 20 or so people I personally know that keep darts only 3 of them are members and the rest have chosen not to be members for various reasons. In my opinion this forum is a fraction of a percent of the actual number of people who keep darts as pets/hobby, pets/conservationist, or are breeders.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

zBrinks said:


> I was chatting with Josh (Josh's Frogs - Herps Feeders and All The Reptile Supplies You need) today, and he has 5,941 registered accounts (different purchasers) on his website since it opened in Nov. 2004


All in the United States or does that number include Europe too?

6000 people in 5 years....is not a lot....


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Phil, the point is that around 5,000 PDF hobbyists go to him for supplies. Even if 10% of dart keepers get their supplies from Josh (I think this is probably an exaggeration), that's still 50,000 dart keepers in the US. 
I really think this hobby is much larger than most of us suspect, but many are content with keeping a tank or two for their personal enjoyment, and that's it.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> 6000 people in 5 years....is not a lot....


 Compared to other online small businesses, yes, it is.


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Zack,
that number is still a lot better than 15 years ago when there were only about 300 of us nationwide


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I have no idea how many people keep PDF's. If I mentioned a number it would be just a guess.

What amazes me is how many video's are on You Tube. Thousands of them!

Poison dart frogs, Dart frog vivariums, Dart frog eating, etc.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Glenn,

We can certainly use youtube as a gauge as well.

One interesting observation is that there are two other dart frog websites in the U.S and two in Canada but only this one gets decent traffic and relevancy.

That is also an indicator of either two things IMO:

1. There are not that many dart frog enthusiasts as we think
2. Many people do not use the internet for hobby purposes.

or....both.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I recall reading a survey, where they figured approximately 3% of the US population keeps reptiles and amphibians. There's around 250 million Americans (last I looked), so that's about 7.5 million herp keepers in the US. I know turtles/tortoises are statistically the most popular herp pets, followed by frogs. Even if only 1% of herp keepers kept darts (as what is probably a very lowball estimate), that still means 75,000 dart frog keepers.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

zBrinks said:


> Compared to other online small businesses, yes, it is.


Is he driving a BMW ?

An iconic businessman from the inception of herps as business once told me (a few months ago)......"you can't make money(a living) off frogs. Snakes, turtles and lizards...yes......not frogs"

I fully believe that.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Certainly not driving a BMW - he drives a Honda CRV.

The business is his only source of income. That being said, he does make a living off of it. I was using those numbers from his business as evidence that there are many more dart frog keepers than most would think, not that he was getting rich off of captive breeding and selling animals and supplies over the internet. 
People who join and participate in hobbyist groups, online forums, etc tend to be more 'passionate/addicted' to the hobby than most, certainly a minority.


----------



## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

BChambers said:


> Nope-I mean just darts.
> 
> Think of it-100,000 translates to only 2000 per state. I used to sell at least 100 dart frogs a year in my shop in Upstate NY. If there were ONLY 10 other stores in the entire state doing the same numbers, then you have 1000 darts sold in just a single year. Actually, in our city alone there were three other stores which commonly sold darts (not in the numbers we did, I'm sure). Just extrapolate and you get a pretty huge number over the entire country.
> 
> Remember, the vast majority of these people have little or no interest in the "hobby"-they are pet keepers with just one or two decorative terrariums in the home, and maybe a book or a local retailer (such as myself) to help them along. You'll never hear from these folks on the internet, yet they make up the majority of keepers.


I think the only problem is that you aren't factoring in states where PDFs are illegal. Then again the only states I can think of that have laws against keeping PDFs are somewhat low population and may not represent your estimates to their full potential anyway. I'd say in illegal states the numbers are still in the hundreds (maybe squeaking over 1,000 in high pop states). Then you have states like Maine with low populations (1.5 - 2 million) where 2000 hobbyists would be a large percentage to keep PDFs (especially since they were only legalized in 8/09). I can certainly see that there could easily be double your estimations in a state like California with such vast amounts of people though. 

I haven't been in the hobby long, and I may not even have enough frogs to be considered a hobbyist. I just think that there aren't nearly as many people keeping PDFs, amphibians, or even reptiles, as it seems from inside of the community. That's my personal opinion .


----------



## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Glenn,
> 
> We can certainly use youtube as a gauge as well.
> 
> ...


on this point, I am much more into the plant hobby than the frog hobby, yet the only website i use for plants is a frog forum.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Glenn,
> 
> We can certainly use youtube as a gauge as well.
> 
> ...


1. No idea
2. I don't think there are many who use the internet for hobby purposes. How many people come on DB for a few months to get info and vanish from the forum. Lots...I bet they still have their frogs. They use the forum to get the info needed to care for them and no longer feel the need to be here. IMO they are probably way more PDF keepers than represented here or on any other forum.


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

zBrinks said:


> I recall reading a survey, where they figured approximately 3% of the US population keeps reptiles and amphibians. There's around 250 million Americans (last I looked), so that's about 7.5 million herp keepers in the US. I know turtles/tortoises are statistically the most popular herp pets, followed by frogs. Even if only 1% of herp keepers kept darts (as what is probably a verylow ball estimate), that still means 75,000 dart frog keepers.


That is one reason I go with a figure of 50,000-75,000. According to the National Cable and Telecommunications Association 41.2 million customers of high speed internet (Sept 2009, including business.) I also read that dial-up is only 12% of the internet customers. The US Census Bureau states their are an estimated 112,386,298 occupied housing units in America. Even if you put 12,000,000 million dial-up internet customers, that still only puts about 50% of homes with internet. Dendroboard can only be as big as the internet base it is designed for. 



Sources:
Industry Data - NCTA.com
United States - Selected Housing Characteristics: 2006-2008


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

AMPHIBIAN DECLINES: THE PET INDUSTRY LEAPS FORWARD THROUGH SCIENTIFIC COLLABORATION

The abstract is unclear whether there are 4.4 million HERP keepers in the US, or simply, amphibian keepers. I would agree that a good portion of our "dart frog keepers" are quiet with only one or two species.

The real question is-- how LONG do people stay in the hobby? That number factors into how many are keeping them. Sometimes I wonder if the people that maintain only a few animals are in the "hobby" longer than the people that get too much at once and then burn out later-- I've watched a lot of hobbyists burn out quickly. Some of them used to be regulars on Dendroboard.

The number of amphibian keepers in general is probably high because whites tree frogs, dwarf frogs, clawed frogs, pac mans, and fire bellied toads are very popular. But, how long are these people keeping their animals? Many people and friends I've known have had amphibians at one time, but don't live long.


----------



## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Me personally ,I hadn't heard of dendroboard untill Zach told me about it at one of the local shows/ And I had been keeping darts for a few years prior to that. And have been a vendor for years.

I think we under estimate just how many people dont belong to a forum of any kind. Ive worked in the pet industry since I was 14 ( only 26 now) so for 12 years and most of my customers never even heard of kingsnake , and that site gets millions of hits. And even further almost zero knew there were actuall shows they could attend. Infact it was frowned upon to tell the customers about them due to loosing buisness. At one of the stores I was thier reptile manager and often sold PDFs to customers. Even Had a really nice display tank for the shop . . . I Had NO CLUE dendroboard exsisted . . .

I guess my point of this way to long post is not to underestimate the amount of people out there keeping PDFs . . .


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Nice find Doug......good data.


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Households with reptiles / amphibians continue to grow worldwide. I've kept frogs for over eleven years, and have seen huge changes in husbandry practices and availability of species. 

One thing I find interesting is that more people like frogs than lizards and especially, snakes. But snakes and lizards are a larger part of the hobby.

The biggest obstacle with keeping frogs is their feeding and housing requirements. You can easily feed beardies, tortoises, and iguanas prepared food. I do not keep snakes, but from what I hear, snakes do not require fancy or strict supplementation regimes like our frogs do. Frogs are also more prone to stress when moved. Therefore, its not always the best interest of the frogs to move them to your relative's house to be watched unlike many other herps. Fish are the same way, but there is a larger market for fish tank maintenance. I know of a local company that cleans office and residential tanks. 

My point is: life throws curve balls. If you travel frequently, and can't get anyone to feed your frogs properly-- regardless if its a dart frog or fire bellied toad-- its going to make things more difficult to maintain them long term compared to someone that owns a beardie who can get a sitter or friend that can open a can of food for them. Or, to hire a fish tank maintenance person to visit periodically to feed and clean tanks.

But, as amphibians / herps continue to gain popularity, I wouldn't be surprised if there will be more pet sitters that can handle amphibians and live food. One of my friends on this board has had success with a local sitter to watch his stuff and he travels a lot.

Therefore, perhaps more people will stay in the hobby longer once the market demand grows high enough for "frog maintenance." Lots of people have left this hobby because of moving, getting married, or going to school.


----------



## sunnyboy (Dec 29, 2009)

i am in the north east United Kingdon and we have a healthy hobby society for PDF's here...


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

So your only making a living if your driving a BMW?

I guess it depends on what you call "a living" and how extravagant your taste is and how much you can do for yourself.



Philsuma said:


> Is he driving a BMW ?
> 
> An iconic businessman from the inception of herps as business once told me (a few months ago)......"you can't make money(a living) off frogs. Snakes, turtles and lizards...yes......not frogs"
> 
> I fully believe that.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Recaping a little....

So....we have some figures of 100,000 people in the U.S keeping at least a single dart frog or possibly more.

Some say....25,000 to 50,000

I still tend to think much less.....under 10,000


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I think numbers sold in pet stores/shows has little reflection on number of keepers. I think many of these are impulse purchases made by ill prepred individuals. I would venture a guess that many of these animals don't live long, and the peole who purchased them abandon the idea after their initial failure. Does te number of mantellas imported into the USA reflect the number of people successfully keping them? Probably not

Whe you say hobbyist, I think it references people with more than a passing interest in these animals. I think the number of keepers of this type are much fewer, those attempting to, or successfully are breeding and raising froglets even fewer. 

I do see this hobby and these animals becoming more and more popular though, and with the wealth of quality information and resources about their needs I think more people will gravitate toward them.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

First I'm not sure there is any real way to gauge the actual number and I would not recommend going off the registered users here or on any other site.

Couple of related comments:
- Most people read forums and do not post or join. For example our unique visitors a month greatly exceeds the registered users on the site.
- Many do not use the internet past email and some other random things, and there are many more that don't use it at all.

One thing I think it is interesting and I would suspect is similar to any other hobby is the turnover. Since this is a smaller hobby it seems more dramatic I guess.


----------



## dcameron (Jun 9, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Recaping a little....
> 
> So....we have some figures of 100,000 people in the U.S keeping at least a single dart frog or possibly more.
> 
> ...



I believe that the 10k number is much closer to the actually number perhaps even lower. I can name 10 times the amount of people that have purchased a frog or two and lost interest within a year then people who have stayed with it. Having watched the board for a number of years it is amazing how some people you would swear would never leave the hobby have left and never returned even some of the big breeders.

Kyle is right about the turnover in this hobby, while the herp hobby experiences a fairly high turnover I don't think it gets much higher than darts.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Personal observation from SoFl AND the east coast reptiles shows of late....

It may be possible to blame the economy, but sales are way down....transfers and trades are way down.

Don't know how exactly that translates to hobbyists. Maybe hobby growth is leveling off or hobbyists are still there but not aquiring new frogs.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Observation from the midwest - sales are up at shows, and the Michigan Dendrobatid Group is adding new members weekly. Maybe it's just a regional thing?


----------



## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

zBrinks said:


> Observation from the midwest - sales are up at shows, and the Michigan Dendrobatid Group is adding new members weekly. Maybe it's just a regional thing?


Agreed ! Every show any vendor that has frogs also has a packed table the entire show .Talked to a few and sales are really well for them at the shows . . .


----------



## Naturian (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm from Mexico and I can tell you that there are not much of us here as you would imagine, all frogs available are imports from the U.S. at high prices, the ones that come with CITES and there are some others in the border area that are bought in the US but not legally imported. All those who have them are mostly serious hobbyists that are well informed and prepared but I doubt that we are over 20 or 30. However there are a lot more that would like to have some, at least 2000 different inquiries in a local forum. 

The good thing here is that there are several pet stores that sell almost all suitable equipment for keeping them, except maybe for misting systems but many have successfully made customized appliances getting things at their local Home Depot and hardware stores. Most of their good care and information comes from pages in Spain where the hobby is rather large. 

I also heard that there are frogs available in Guatemala as well, high prices and also imported from the U.S. Eventhough they are so close to Nicaragua and Costa Rica, there is no much smuggling for the pet trade in Latin America although I've talked to people in Costa Rica, Panama, Peru and Venezuela that do collect them in the wild or buy them at local pet stores and keep healthy populations, some for the sake of conservation, study and others just simple hobbyists.

That's just some information compiled from forums and talking to other hobbyists in the region. The good thing I believe is that is difficult to get them in the region so all those that can get them are definitely informed so very little frogs are lost for ill preparation.


----------

