# Help me. Mysterious bloating problem (tics are dying)



## Stuginski (Nov 21, 2014)

Hi guys, How are u? I am facing a terrible problem with my tincs. I had 6 tincs in a highly planted 6 foot enclosure (I lost one today). I had these frogs for more 6 months They were quarantined and dewormed before I place than in my terrarium. Everything was perfectly fine until last week. Well, three frogs became listless, anorexic and bloated. They were searching for water spots and remaning there for many hours. I don't think that is a intestinal parasite issue because everything works so fast and they are absolutely anorexic. I thought that could be a bacterial infection, specially due the bloating symptom so I started a baytril bath treatment (i am vet, not a frog vet but a vet), I am using 5 drops per 75cc of water, iam in the 6th day but until today everything still the same. I tryed short baths with amphibian ringer to solve the bloating issue (30-45 min) but it didn't work also. I am really concerned and completly lost, what should I try next? Today I noticed some mucous thing after the baytril bath :-(.
My animals are kept in 6ft highly planted vivarium, temp 26-28, 80-90% R.U. They feed on FF (melano and hidey), and I am using repashy too.
Something different happened in the week before? Well...yes. 1) I fed on crickets 15 days ago. 2) I put vit A suplement in the water of the mistyking two weeks ago also, because my suplement (Dendrocare) was old and I saw some symptons of short tongue disease in other frogs. It isn't easy to find amphibians supplies in my country.

Could be a vit A overdose?
Should I try longer amphibian ringer baths?
What should I do???

I try to put a picture of my tincs here but for some mysterious reason I can't

Please help me, thanks alot!

Stu

P.S: sorry for my bad english


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Just a guess....did you mean you added Vit. A to a misting system? Please clarify...your quote is: " 2) I put vit A suplement in the water of the mistyking two weeks ago" So you should explain what you mean, and how that vitamin has been given/sprayed on/ etc. for how many treatments per day. Google Vitamin A overdose ....you have to consider that as probably the only commonality to 6 frogs who have been happy and healthy for 6 months in that large vivarium without any issue. Good luck and am truly sorry ....


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## Stuginski (Nov 21, 2014)

Hi Judy.
Yes, I put a tea spoon of vit A powder into the water container (5l) of my misty system. This misty system works 4 times a day during 20 seconds and it worked with vit A for a week. I already google it, and vit A overdose could be the cause but I don't know if this misting schedule was enough to cause this problem. As bloating is a symptom of many different disease I am trying to figure all the possibilities ans establish some treatment to save my frogs.

Thanks 
Stu


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## topher (Oct 9, 2013)

Where'd you get the idea to put Vit A in your misting system....


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## Stuginski (Nov 21, 2014)

I already treat short tongue disease with a procedure like that and I am pretty confident that it woeks very well. I talked earlier that I was concerned with the vit A deficience.
Thanks for helping me

D.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

please...please...read some posts here on DB about the use of supplements....and stop what you are doing...you are perhaps killing your whole frog population... What I use, and probably the majority of DB people, is to dust FFs with a product like Repashy Calcium Plus everytime the frogs get fed....and then at THE most, the FFs are dusted with a Vitamin A supplement...Let us know how you make out...hopefully your frogs will recover. The AmphibiaRingers was a good idea...but the Baytril was useless...if you are a vet tech...not to scold you...but a shotgun approach, especially with a sick animal is most often a poor choice...it tends to make any problem worse.


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## Stuginski (Nov 21, 2014)

Ok, let´s go again. I don't know if I made myself understandable.
First. I am not using vit A in misty system. I did it 15 days ago during 7 days.
But Why do I did it? I did it because: - My galactonotus started to present Short Tongue Disease. Probably because my supplement (Dendro Care) was out of date. I always use vit supplements to dust FF. 
But why I didn't bought another supplement fast? Because in my country we don't have acess to any amphibian supplement. I bought the new supplement (Repashy) as fast as possible (after 10 days that I saw the Short Tongue Syndrome signals in my galactonotus).
I was afraid that my tincs evolve Short tongue Syndrome, so I decided to try a supplementation of vit A by the skin (Topic) using my misty system.
The use of vit A "topic", in baths or spraying to treat sick frogs (specially the accomited by short tongue syndrome) can be debated but it isn't so absurd.

Actually I treated that gallacs with vit A baths (obviously diluted) and they are healed.
I am not attesting that we should try supplemantation by this route BUT , at least in my experience, yes can be used when the frogs are sick and not eating.
My tinc were with short tongue syndrome? No, it was preventive, based on galacs.

Second. I didn't know about the vit A overdose-bloating issue. More than that I didn't imagine that I could overdose a vit A with this very short schedule of exposure. Maybe this was an error but it is not a crime. I am not entirely convinced that spraying vit A for less than 2 minutes/day for a week is the main reason of my bloating problem. Could be? Yes. This is one of the reasons that I am here asking for some advice.
Fourth, I am vet, I am not using baytril just because I have acess to this drug. I am using baytril because the one of the main reasons to a frog present bloating is bacterial disease. So, I decided to use the antibiotics to cover this possibility. IF the reason is Vit A overdose, baytril will not help but if this issue is related to bacterial disease I have a chance to solve the problem.

To be honest I am always reading info here on DB, in other foruns or in books. I read some bloating treats too, but, as the bloating is just a symptom of many causes I decided to post here my problem with bloating because maybe, with lucky, some good soul could give me a advice.

Thanks

Stu


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

well....guess I don't qualify as a "good soul" ah well....


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## Stuginski (Nov 21, 2014)

I didn't say that Judy. Sorry it wasn't my intention.

I am just trying to make myself understandable, which isn´t the easiest task when you are speaking in a non-native language.

I really appreciate your input.

Again, sorry.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Stuginski said:


> I thought that could be a bacterial infection, specially due the bloating symptom so I started a baytril bath treatment (i am vet, not a frog vet but a vet), I am using 5 drops per 75cc of water, iam in the 6th day but until today everything still the same. I tryed short baths with amphibian ringer to solve the bloating issue (30-45 min) but it didn't work also. I am really concerned and completly lost, what should I try next? Today I noticed some mucous thing after the baytril bath.
> Should I try longer amphibian ringer baths?
> What should I do???
> 
> ...


First off I am not a vet, so this is just my opinion.

Are your frogs still in their vivarium or have they been moved to a new quarantine container? You say anorexic, meaning they are not eating?
I would continue hypertonic ringers, a couple hours a day. Maintain their temps as close to 25°C as possible. I thought the recommended dosage for baytril was 10mg/kilo, you seem to be 10 times that ratio.
Could the mucous you mentioned have been shed skin?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the future I would suggest not dosing the vitamin A through the misting system. You not only have issues controlling the dosage through exposure but your contributing a large available food source to bacteria in the misting system and enclosure. Keep in mind that most of the bacteria that infect the frogs are opportunistic and if you increase the population of those bacteria, you increase the exposure of the frogs and increase the risk of infection. 

The following is opinion and not meant to diagnose or treat:
It is generally considered much more effective to dose frogs that are symptomatic with vitamin A deficiency via a small drop on the back if they have progressed to the point where they have issues capturing dusted prey. 

Sim, Richard R., et al. "A comparison of oral and topical vitamin A supplementation in African foam-nesting frogs (Chiromantis xerampelina)." Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 41.3 (2010): 456-460.

the constant search for water has been linked to potential infections of the frogs with Bd (Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis) and this can also result in rapid death of frogs. You should get the frogs swabbed and checked for Bd as soon as possible. Providing them with access to temperatures above 78 F can help reduce mortality from Bd. 

with respect to the bloating, while vitamin A overdose can cause ascites in many cases, you need to also consider that if the animals have damaged liver and/or kidneys due to the overdose (or infection) that the enrofloxacin has to been carefully managed to prevent damage (or further damage) to those organs. With respect to the Amphibian Ringer's Solution (ARS), you can wet brown paper towels with it and keep the frogs on it when they aren't in the actual bath. As it is isotonic with the frogs it shouldn't contribute to further fluid retention and it also reduces osmotic stress from the frog as they don't have to try and manage their osmotic balance. The isotonic ARS can easily be used in conjunction with the hypertonic ARS. 

Have you done further fecal checks since the deaths have occured or performed necropsies on the dead frogs? 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> I thought the recommended dosage for baytril was 10mg/kilo, you seem to be 10 times that ratio.?


That is actually the upper recommended range as of 2001 in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, Wright & Whitaker, Krieger Publishing Co. Florida. 


some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed...thank you...if the fellow is a vet...you have spoken to him in a way perhaps he will understand that the other poster and I could not...I did not think of the Bd prospect...and your suggestion of being on paper with the solution soaked in it was brilliant....all in all...an important post for other froggers as well....Hope the poster gets back to you and the Board...


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

wish this person would let us know how he is doing with his frogs....


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