# Unusual grey patch on tinc's side



## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

My Citronella has been a picky eater for several months and when we came home from Christmas vacation, we noticed this patch of discoloration on the left side(compared to the right side). Looking close up, there isn't any wound - the skin looks uniform in everything but the color. Also, it hasn't grown or decreased in size since we noticed it 5 weeks ago. Does this look familiar to any seasoned froggers? I paid to have a local reptile vet treat a couple other frogs recently, and unfortunately, I lost both the frogs and a bunch of cash. Can't afford that route.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

What did you lose your other frogs to and hw long ago. Is cross contamination a possibility?


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

scoy said:


> What did you lose your other frogs to and hw long ago. Is cross contamination a possibility?


I lost my other frogs end of Nov./beginning of Dec. They had no discoloration. Just totally stopped eating. Bad aim w/ tongue. Still it's possible. Good news is that I took the advice of Koro on this board, and kept trying foods it didn't eat the 1st time I introduced them, and got it to feast on black-eyed pea beatles today.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

What are you supplementing with and how much how often?


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I think Nat mentioned the frog not eating ff with supplements in his earlier thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/identification-forum/160698-what-gender-citronella.html

So Nat, what Scoy is getting at is that frogs not being able to catch flies with their tongue is a major symptom of the frogs not getting enough vitamin A. It is a real problem that comes up quite frequently. The current easiest was to fix this is with Repashy A. In addition, the Repashy Cal Plus has vit A , and that product you can use at every feeding. The Repashy A you would normally just once per month. Since your frog in question is eating the bean beetles that is great, as they are easy to dust, and dust you must.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

This is what happened to my frog when she tore some skin off.... It went away after awhile.... Do you think it would be posible that the frog could have got skin ripped off?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Since you did not disclose your location on your member page, perhaps you could get some advice from a DBer close to where you are located....or a member could point you toward a member who could help you. Curious..how long have you had the frog(s)..and how did you happen to get them...


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

Yes, it does appear to be a healed wound, looks a lot like frogs wounds after they have been treated, such as nose rubs, etc.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

It looks like an injury that started healing and then stopped healing. It also looks a little underweight.if it were me I would feed more often, also try fly larvae and stop the bean beetles. I would begin baytril treatments and apply neomycin ointment without painreleif


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

mfsidore said:


> This is what happened to my frog when she tore some skin off.... It went away after awhile.... Do you think it would be posible that the frog could have got skin ripped off?


I was hoping someone would suggest that! Yes, it is certainly possible, and less serious than some other problems. As a child I had non-exotic frogs, and sometimes they damaged their snouts hopping into the glass, and the color changed temporarily. Of course I don't know for sure, just wishful thinking at this point.


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

srrrio said:


> I think Nat mentioned the frog not eating ff with supplements in his earlier thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/identification-forum/160698-what-gender-citronella.html
> 
> So Nat, what Scoy is getting at is that frogs not being able to catch flies with their tongue is a major symptom of the frogs not getting enough vitamin A. It is a real problem that comes up quite frequently. The current easiest was to fix this is with Repashy A. In addition, the Repashy Cal Plus has vit A , and that product you can use at every feeding. The Repashy A you would normally just once per month. Since your frog in question is eating the bean beetles that is great, as they are easy to dust, and dust you must.


I always dust the other FF w/ Herpetal Amphib, which has Vit. A in it. When this Citronella got the discoloration, was during 2 weeks when my friend could only get it to eat (undusted) lesser wax worms. Since returning from vacation, it is such a relief to see it sometimes eat other food. When I give it dusted FF, it catches them, sort of chokes/makes a grossed out face and spits them out. I have to figure out some other way of delivering the vitamins. BTW, do all calcium/water dilutions have sorbic acid in them?!? The stuff my vet told me to buy does, and my frogs jumped around in great pain and stress when I put that $*[email protected] on their backs. I would to if I was a frog!


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

Judy S said:


> Since you did not disclose your location on your member page, perhaps you could get some advice from a DBer close to where you are located....or a member could point you toward a member who could help you. Curious..how long have you had the frog(s)..and how did you happen to get them...


I just started w/ darts last summer. I'm a noob. No pet stores, just home breeders and terrarium fairs.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Nat said:


> I always dust the other FF w/ Herpetal Amphib, which has Vit. A in it. When this Citronella got the discoloration, was during 2 weeks when my friend could only get it to eat (undusted) lesser wax worms. Since returning from vacation, it is such a relief to see it sometimes eat other food. When I give it dusted FF, it catches them, sort of chokes/makes a grossed out face and spits them out. I have to figure out some other way of delivering the vitamins. BTW, do all calcium/water dilutions have sorbic acid in them?!? The stuff my vet told me to buy does, and my frogs jumped around in great pain and stress when I put that $*[email protected] on their backs. I would to if I was a frog!


Don't give calcium/water drops to frogs. They are very hard to dose accurately, are inconsistent concentration-wise, and AFAIK we have know idea how quickly the frogs absorb it. Get yourself some Repashy Calcium Plus and dust the flies.. I've never seen a frog that doesn't like it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nat said:


> I always dust the other FF w/ Herpetal Amphib, which has Vit. A in it. When this Citronella got the discoloration, was during 2 weeks when my friend could only get it to eat (undusted) lesser wax worms. Since returning from vacation, it is such a relief to see it sometimes eat other food. When I give it dusted FF, it catches them, sort of chokes/makes a grossed out face and spits them out. I have to figure out some other way of delivering the vitamins. BTW, do all calcium/water dilutions have sorbic acid in them?!? The stuff my vet told me to buy does, and my frogs jumped around in great pain and stress when I put that $*[email protected] on their backs. I would to if I was a frog!


What exactly did the vet give you? Was there a brand name or was it something he mixed up at the office or at a pharmacy? 

As for it spitting the flies out, you have two options... 
1) only offer food that is dusted so it gets used to the taste
2) try other supplements until you find one that it will accept. 

If you do not get vitamin A into the frog on a consistent basis, it will develop vitamin A deficiency and starve to death. 

Was this a captive bred frog or a wild caught animal? Were the the frogs that died wild caught or captive bred? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

Ed said:


> What exactly did the vet give you? Was there a brand name or was it something he mixed up at the office or at a pharmacy?
> 
> As for it spitting the flies out, you have two options...
> 1) only offer food that is dusted so it gets used to the taste
> ...


Ed,

It was Calcium Sandoz 500mg tablets mixed in declorinated water. I could get it w/o prescription from the pharmacy. The kind of tablet that goes pop, pop, fizz, fizz, oh what a burning sensation there is! It ate dusted FF for a while. I need to try a different brand or some FF maggots in a medium mixed w/ carrot juice maybe. I don't buy wild caught.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You must find a way to get that frog to accept dusted prey. If you cannot, the frog is already dead. Any liquid supplements would only be delaying the inevitable. The only permanent solution, at least at the hobbyists level, is properly dusted prey.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Calcium Sandoz??? What was THAT supposed to do?? Perhaps send an email to Dr.Frye...you can find him on Dart Den...good luck with the frog..


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Just having vitamin A in it is not enough. Our frogs need preformed vitamin A (Retinol). Are you positive that your supplement has the proper form of vitamin A? Most supplements that I am familiar with, do NOT have the proper type, which makes it useless. I choose Repashy for my dusting needs.
I did a little search on your product. It does not appear to be properly balanced. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/35840-herpetal.html#post319495


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

Pumilo said:


> Just having vitamin A in it is not enough. Our frogs need preformed vitamin A (Retinol). Are you positive that your supplement has the proper form of vitamin A? Most supplements that I am familiar with, do NOT have the proper type, which makes it useless. I choose Repashy for my dusting needs.
> I did a little search on your product. It does not appear to be properly balanced. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/35840-herpetal.html#post319495


Oh, gosh! I was just at the herp store today, but I forgot to ask for Repashy. Darn!


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## jrodkinsey (May 27, 2013)

One of my mints had a gray patch like that. I believe it was just a scrap from always climbing the tree fern panels. I just kept a close eye on it and it went away in a few days.

I second using Repashy cal+ and once a month use the vitamin A supplement. Out of all the Repashy products I use, my animals have never turned their nose up to any of his products.

EDIT: use the Repashy cal+ at every feeding.


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

jrodkinsey said:


> One of my mints had a gray patch like that. I believe it was just a scrap from always climbing the tree fern panels. I just kept a close eye on it and it went away in a few days.
> 
> I second using Repashy cal+ and once a month use the vitamin A supplement. Out of all the Repashy products I use, my animals have never turned their nose up to any of his products.


I think it is a scrape. (breaths sigh of relief) Sorry, you mean the Repashy cal+ doesn't have the vitamin A retinol, and I need something else?


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## jrodkinsey (May 27, 2013)

Nat said:


> I think it is a scrape. (breaths sigh of relief) Sorry, you mean the Repashy cal+ doesn't have the vitamin A retinol, and I need something else?


It does, but it is just a small amount. You will need to dust once month with an actual Vitamin A supplement that has a higher dosage. Again, I recommend Repashy Vitamin A supplement as well.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Once you start with repashy calcium plus you wont need to supplement with anything else if there doing well.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

from my understanding...the Repashy vit.A is also to be used once, or even twice a month...especially for young or breeding frogs..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nat said:


> Ed,
> 
> It was Calcium Sandoz 500mg tablets mixed in declorinated water. I could get it w/o prescription from the pharmacy. The kind of tablet that goes pop, pop, fizz, fizz, oh what a burning sensation there is! It ate dusted FF for a while. I need to try a different brand or some FF maggots in a medium mixed w/ carrot juice maybe. I don't buy wild caught.



I suspect you purchased the wrong product. Calcium Sandoz comes in a syrup of calcium glubionate and calcium lactobionate. This is very close to the calcium glubionate used by vets in the US for mammals and for frogs. It needs to be diluted down to about 2.2%. 

I suspect that the tablets might have been fine as well provided you diluted it to the proper concentration. 

I would suggest reading up on the lack of ability of frogs to use beta carotene as a source for vitamin A. Adding carrot juice to your cultures isn't going to help the frogs. 

As for whether they were wild caught or not, it isn't uncommon for wild caught animals to be laundered as captive bred. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed...what was the product supposed to do??


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Ed...what was the product supposed to do??


When used properly calcium glubionate/gluconate (the US available versions) are used to help increase circulating calcium levels in the blood and lymph as part of a treatment for calcium deficiency. 

On a anecdotal basis, it has been used to help the survivial of pumilio metamorphs to get past the six month sensitivity window. I have some hunchs of why it works in some cases for the pumilio but nothing concrete enough to speculate on it... 

It is readily available in the US to treat livestock for things like cows for milk fever but needs to be diluted to @2% (ideally 2.2%). 

It needs to be noted that calcium doesn't help if the frog doesn't have enough D3 which is needed to allow it to properly utilize the calcium. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

Ed said:


> I would suggest reading up on the lack of ability of frogs to use beta carotene as a source for vitamin A. Adding carrot juice to your cultures isn't going to help the frogs.
> 
> As for whether they were wild caught or not, it isn't uncommon for wild caught animals to be laundered as captive bred.
> 
> Ed


So I guess using paprika powder used for firebelly newts won't help?

Funny thing. I saw someone advertising Citronellas once, and the WC were more than 3 X's the price of their CB stock Fresh bloodlines, I guess.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nat said:


> So I guess using paprika powder used for firebelly newts won't help?


No where near as well as using astaxanthin and canthaxanthin which are two common red carotenoids found in many aquatic crustaceans... The structure of the red pigments in paprika are not as well absorbed as the two I listed above. 

The main carotenoid that ends up being absorbed from paprika is beta carotene which is a poor source of vitamin A for amphibians and a number of reptiles like chameleons. 

This has been discussed pretty well on here just search beta carotene. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

Last night I took the tank apart to clean an disinfect it (after *very* carefully removing my Citronella to quarintine), and to my surprise there were tons of dwarf tropical woodlice which I had put in ages ago. What I took to be the frog's missing its prey, and putting its tongue out for "phantom" flies was likely its hunting of woodlice, after getting tired of the same 'ole FF day in day out. This might have even been the case for the other two frogs which I likely stressed to death after chasing them around their tank, with one of them taking a four foot drop to the floor. Something to keep in mind if you think your frog isn't eating *anything* but still has energy...


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