# Plants for a Northern Temperate Vivarium



## hydrophyte

I am working on preliminary ideas for a vivarium that will represent a local forest environment for Wisconsin, USA. I get the impression that a lot of the native plants in my area really don't like to spend much time indoors. I have one idea in mind to keep certain plants in pots that can be cycled in and out of the enclosure so that they will only stay in the viv for part of the season. I hope to more or less hide the pots with leaf litter. 

Do you think that this might work out alright? I wonder how native plants such as spring wildflowers might do in a vivarium for a month or two(?). I think that some other native plants, such as ferns and forest sedges, might tolerate a longer stay in a vivarium. Does anybody know of any examples of this sort of setup?

Thanks for considering this


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## Dartfrogfreak

Personally I say why bother?
There are thousands of plant varieties from south America, South Asia Africa etc.. are that are suited to a tropical vivarium and dont require a dormancy. why bother using native plants inside? Just enjoy them outdoors 




Just my 2 cents


Todd


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## Shenanigans

I would think that most of the plants from where you live wouldn't last long in a vivarium just because they aren't used to high humidity.


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## housevibe7

If you have a partial screen, since Wisconsin is fairly humid due to the lakes, Im sure they would be fine in a viv... just dont let them stay wet.

First thing off the top of my head is a maidenhair fern. Ill think on it and let you know... wild strawberry would be another good one.


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## Ulupica

Many of the Spring wildflowers in Wisconsin need to go dormant for a period of at least 3-4 months. Unless your vivarium is taken down to around freezing for that length of time they will not erupt. Bloodroot and Trout Lily are among the most common. I suppose you could remove them and put them somewhere cold for that time and then replant.

Also, some of the early Spring ephemerals take years from seed to bloom.


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## Groundhog

HOLD UP gang, I have a question:

It is of course true that several temperate plants do need a dormancy; many carnivores absoultely require it. (And even the so-called Strawberry begonia needs a dormancy period to flower.) So--why not provide a dormancy period?

What about a failry large tank (20-30 gal), for say, local herps (wood frog, spring peepers, etc). Why couldn't he place the tank in a cool, dim garage for 3 mos (say, Dec through February). Has anyone here tried something like this?

I was thinking:

Tiarella
Mitchella
Goodyera
some small Aroid
maybe some local mosses and ferns


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## ggazonas

It would work if you provide a dormancy period. however you'll have to watch mature sizes


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## hydrophyte

I have a good start on this project already.

We have a nice little _Viola_ and a NOID _Carex_ already growing nicely in the setup. I do have plans for moving the plants outside later in the season. They look very happy now.


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## frogparty

Goodyera oblongifolia.


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## hydrophyte

Are there commercial sources for _Goodyera_? I have seen it in the wild here, but I wouldn't want to collect such plants for this project.


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## frogparty

There are. Look around


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## Dendro Dave

hydrophyte said:


> Are there commercial sources for _Goodyera_? I have seen it in the wild here, but I wouldn't want to collect such plants for this project.


We are talking about the jewel orchid right? Could try imperial exotics on ebay. 
Beautiful Jewel Orchid Goodyera schlectendaliana - eBay (item 200520515373 end time Apr-14-11 13:44:04 PDT)

I've ordered from them before, and they are a member here. He may have stuff that he hasn't bothered to put up on ebay if you ask.


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## frogparty

Goodyera oblongifolia is the norther temperate goodyera and is harder to find. It prefers different conditions to the tropical Goodyeras


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## Dendro Dave

frogparty said:


> Goodyera oblongifolia is the norther temperate goodyera and is harder to find. It prefers different conditions to the tropical Goodyeras


Ya I saw there were a couple of species when I did a quick search but was to lazy to work out if some were tropical and others more temperate 

Anyways I looked a little harder and for one of the native species Dave's Garden site listed a vendor. Here it is...

Rattlesnake Plantain Shooting Star Nursery, LLC

Almost no info on it in the description but it does appear you can order it. Only other offering was for a sale on Dave's garden from 2008 but I googled the vendor to see if they had a website and they do and the plant is listed for sale currently on it. 

It is listed in the "R" section as "Rattlesnake Plantain (Goodyera pubescens)"
fern from Viola Valley Wildflowers - Woodland Flowers and ferns

Well there is two possible places to get it...hope it works out for ya


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## skylsdale

It's in the woods across the street from my house. Prefer really humus-rich soil...the top layer of decomposing forest substrate with rotting wood, aged needles, etc.


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## frogparty

Dendro Dave said:


> Ya I saw there were a couple of species when I did a quick search but was to lazy to work out if some were tropical and others more temperate
> 
> Anyways I looked a little harder and for one of the native species Dave's Garden site listed a vendor. Here it is...
> 
> Rattlesnake Plantain Shooting Star Nursery, LLC
> 
> Almost no info on it in the description but it does appear you can order it. Only other offering was for a sale on Dave's garden from 2008 but I googled the vendor to see if they had a website and they do and the plant is listed for sale currently on it.
> 
> It is listed in the "R" section as "Rattlesnake Plantain (Goodyera pubescens)"
> fern from Viola Valley Wildflowers - Woodland Flowers and ferns
> 
> Well there is two possible places to get it...hope it works out for ya


Goodyera pubescens is the eastern temperate species, oblongifolia the western. 
It thrives in mature secondary/old growth Douglas fir forests near where I used to live, and flowers in June. Because the roots don't penetrate deeply, and the soil layer is eclusively decomposing doug fir needles, bark and cones Id say it likes a pretty acidic mixture. I have cultivated it successfully with broken Doug fir cone chunks in the cold room of my old house. water like any other jewel orchi


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## hydrophyte

I made a bit more headway with this project. Today I went and got a couple of real nice limestone rocks to stick inside. 

Has anybody ever had any experience with walking fern (_Asplenium rhizophyllum_) in a viv?


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## skylsdale

I think it would do well in a temperate viv...I picked one up from Black Jungle at Microcosm. I actually forgot to bring it in off the deck and it's currently under a foot of snow, so I can't tell you how it would do in a vivarium. I assume fairly well.


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## hydrophyte

Hey thanks Ron.

I was over there again today and the birdsfoot violet had a bloom on with many more buds on the way, just like it was supposed to.

I am going to get more of the bare root spring-blooming native woodland plants to stick in there. The violet really looked great.


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## hydrophyte

I have made some more headway on this project and tried several different plants. There are some plants that _really_ don't like to be indoors. I am having the best luck so far with ferns and sedges.

The walking fern is doing fairly well and growing.


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## skylsdale

Good to hear--my walking fern perished.


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## hydrophyte

All of the ferns that I have in there are looking pretty good. Most of the other plants, especially the _Viola_ did not do so well. 

I need to get some pictures.


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## hydrophyte

Here's a quick shot of this setup....










The ferns have definitely performed the best.


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## Wallace Grover

hydrophyte said:


> Here's a quick shot of this setup....
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> The ferns have definitely performed the best.


NICE, the stump really makes the tank!


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## jckee1

Looks great. Watch those Maidenhairs. If they are doing well they can spread very quickly.


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## wimvanvelzen

Looks very good - have you got more pictures to share?


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## Wallace Grover

Any plans for an inhabitant?


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## hydrophyte

Wallace Grover said:


> Any plans for an inhabitant?


I am not going to put any herps in there because those ferns have very fine stems and anything bigger than tiny will just knock them over.

I am just going to add several different kinds of arthropods. I already have two spiders in there and I also want to include crickets.


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## dravenxavier

I may have missed it, but what are the dimensions on it. With a temperate setup like that, you could always look into plethodontid salamanders...they won't bother the plants, though you may not really see them much (if ever). Invertebrates are another possibility, depending on the tank size. There are some fantastic native spider species that would do well in there.


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## Wallace Grover

hydrophyte said:


> I am not going to put any herps in there because those ferns have very fine stems and anything bigger than tiny will just knock them over.
> 
> I am just going to add several different kinds of arthropods. I already have two spiders in there and I also want to include crickets.


Those are inhabitants enough to me!!

What kind of spiders are they?


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## hydrophyte

I haven't tried to figure out the spider species yet. I might not be able to to keep up with the species determinations because I will just have to add new ones as I lose others. 

The spider webs look really good in there. They show up very well with the light shining through and with the black background that I have for the tank.


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## Ed

If you can provide a couple of basking spots, then I would suggest ground skinks or one of the other similar lizards. They are active, an enclosure like that would support a decent population, and they are very very underappreciated... 

Ed


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## hydrophyte

Like I mentioned earlier these ferns have very fine stems. It took some effort to get the ferns going and I don't want them to get trampled by lizards.

As you mention lizards would also need a basking spot, and infrared wouldn't be so good for the ferns either.


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## Ed

hydrophyte said:


> Like I mentioned earlier these ferns have very fine stems. It took some effort to get the ferns going and I don't want them to get trampled by lizards.
> 
> As you mention lizards would also need a basking spot, and infrared wouldn't be so good for the ferns either.


Check out Species Profile: Ground Skink (Scincella lateralis) | SREL Herpetology, they are extremely slender and small.. your ferns would have no issues with these skinks. They virtually never climb and thier weight is only a couple of grams at most. 

They are temperate zone leaf litter dwellers and as such do not want a basking site like you would give an arboreal species which requires a high temp heat lamp. A basking area into the low 80s would suit them fine. If your room routinely gets into those temps you don't even need the basking sites.. They like the same conditions as your ferns.

Your fern stems are going to be a lot tougher than you think..

If you don't want to that is up to you but there are options that would work in that set-up.. for example cricket frogs...


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## hydrophyte

Well those are very cute. I think that I have seen those before in Florida or someplace else down south. 

I just looked quick though and it seems that they do not occur in Wisconsin. The range map that I saw shows them extending as far north as Southern Illinois. 

This viv setup needs to have all native WI stuff in it. If the information I ran into is correct we have just four species of lizards here and they all live in warmer open habitats. I have seen glass lizards and five-lined skinks here and they were in open, sandy prairie areas.


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## josh_r

If you are that concerned about the ferns being damaged then I would suggest staying away from crickets. You will get more damage from them than a frog, salamander, or small lizard. If you want a nice viola that does very well in vocations, give viola semprvirens a try. It's a beautiful low growing clumper that sends off little runners. I have had great success with it in vivaria. Goodyera oblongifolia does well as long as the temps dont get too high. I would suggest looking into some type of polypodium as well. Not sure what species you have there but I have grown a couple species in the vivarium in the past. Polypodium scouleri is a nice smaller species but it is a Washington native so you may not be interested. There are polypodium in your area. The viv looks really cool. God luck with it!

Josh


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## hydrophyte

Like I said, this is supposed to be a native Wisconsin display. It is set up at a local museum. That being said, I really do like the ide of those _Scincella lateralis_. I will ask if it would be OK to bend the rules for them. Can anybody suggest any sources for that lizard?

I had another additional idea. What about northern rebdelly snakes (_Storeria occipitomaculata_)? This looks like a perfect habitat for them, but they might just hide all the time. I looked around and couldn't find anything about keeping them in vivs.

If a herp won't fit in here. It will be fine with just the spiders. I was watching today and it looked as though the museum visitors liked the spiders.

I am very pleased with the performance of the ferns. I wondered if they would just sit there in the enclosure, but it looks like all of them are actively gorwing with lots of new roots and new fronds. This was a surpirsing result.


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## Ed

Northern populations of _Storeria _tend to be surprisingly sensitive to high temperatures so if the enclosure is likely to get above 80 F you may want to reconsider them as an option. If you don't provide some basking sites, they would be hidden virtually all of the time. 

Ed


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## dravenxavier

Another option (and one that is spider-friendly) would be some large species of native beetle. I'm not sure what species you have there, but stag or rhino beetles would make a nice addition as well.

I love that fern on the far right. What species is it?


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## Arpeggio

Woah, which museum is this at? I want to see it!


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## Ed

Not as spider friendly but active and interesting.. are Calosoma scrutator native to your region? Large, bright, and active.. 

You could actually cycle several invertebrates in and out of the enclosure over time which would mimic a more natural cycle.


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## dravenxavier

Ed said:


> Not as spider friendly but active and interesting.. are Calosoma scrutator native to your region? Large, bright, and active..
> 
> You could actually cycle several invertebrates in and out of the enclosure over time which would mimic a more natural cycle.


Not sure if that's native, but there ARE several fantastic looking species of tiger beetle that are native, and would be great, bold, active inhabitants, though I know most prefer a bit drier conditions. Though IME, they are pretty generalized...


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## hydrophyte

Thanks for the tips everybody! 

A fiery seracher would be fantastic! I think that one of those might be pretty active by day in the display(?).

I have turned over probably a thousand dead logs here in WI and found exactly one fiery searcher, so I don't know if would be able to count on getting one. If anybody out there can catch one I'll buy it from you. 

Are there regulations about shipping live native insects?


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## tclipse

Ed said:


> If you can provide a couple of basking spots, then I would suggest ground skinks or one of the other similar lizards. They are active, an enclosure like that would support a decent population, and *they are very very underappreciated... *
> 
> Ed


Agreed..

A ringneck snake or green snake (which you can find CB) would be awesome also, though you wouldn't see a ringneck much. Both feed only on insects and are native to your area.


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## Ed

dravenxavier said:


> Not sure if that's native, but there ARE several fantastic looking species of tiger beetle that are native, and would be great, bold, active inhabitants, though I know most prefer a bit drier conditions. Though IME, they are pretty generalized...


It would be an exhibit of one beetle.. With respect to tigers they tend appear in waves and he would want one of the diurnal as opposed to crepuscular or nocturnal ones. 

Ed


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## Ed

tclipse said:


> Agreed..
> 
> A ringneck snake or green snake (which you can find CB) would be awesome also, though you wouldn't see a ringneck much. Both feed only on insects and are native to your area.


greens aren't as easy to maintain long-term as most people think.. also virtually all of the ones available are wild caught. Ringnecks actually predate quite heavily on amphibians particularly plethodontids. 

Ed


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## hydrophyte

I am going to see what they say about adding a _Scincella_, otherwise I am just going to stick with mainly spiders for now. 

I had added an opilionid a week or so ago. Today i saw it out walking around quite a bit and it was actually pretty good in the display. If I were to put several of those in there would they attack the spiders? I once saw an opilionid attack a caterpillar and I couldn't belive how aggressive it was they seem so docile.


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## josh_r

I have a very good friend in your neck of the woods that is an avid herper and bugger. He can get you just about anything you want as long as it's not protected. I could put you in contact with him if you want. Isn't latrodectus variolus a native to Wisconsin? That is a really nice spider.


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## hydrophyte

I am liking the idea of the _Scincella lateralis_ more and more. I hope that they will let me use it even though it's not a WI native. It would be cool to use various large arthropods in there, but that is going to be too much extra work to have to go out over and over again to hunt bugs to replace the ones that eat each other or die off.

Does anybody know of likely sources for _Scincella lateralis_?


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## johnyrocks

Many mosses like northern pillow moss and many non tropical ferns will be ok. Though, most plants like this will probably die because they require a dormancy.


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## hydrophyte

I wondered about putting mosses in there but it is looking pretty good with just the ferns for now. I hoep that some of these ferns will be able to stay in there through the winter.


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## Ed

Mosses need some pretty intense light to do well. If you can't do that without overheating the tank, then I would just go with the leaf drift. Technically that may be more historically accurate as some of the worms that recycle leaflitter were introduced into the US from Europe.. and before that leaf litter usually built up into drifts. 

Ed


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## hydrophyte

Yep this is looking pretty good with just the ferns and the leaf litter.


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## hydrophyte

Well I just replanted this thing and I have some interesting observations to relate. Some of the plants that I had in there are trying to slow down for a winter dormancy, while others still look nice and green and are actively growing.

The plant below is a nice little fern that I found in the woods at my brother's place. It has been growing ever since I replanted it and still looks great now in mid-December the winter after I got it. I need to figure out what it is and I also want to divide it and replant again.









The wild ginger (Asarum canadense) has been looking pretty sad for a couple of months. If you look close you can see the single new bud that will start its next year's growth. I removed this plant and put it outside. 









This _Carex_ sp. sedge isn't the most attractive plant, but it's still growing with new leaves and new roots. This thing stays more or less evergreen through the winter. I want to try out more native _Carex_ this way and try to find some better-looking ones. 









The walking fern (_Asplenium rhizophyllum_) still looks very good, but I haven't seen much new growth from it for a couple of months. This really isn't the best kind of habitat representation for this cool native plant. If I were to use a lot of it I think I would get some nice rocks from vivariumworks.com.









The native maidenhair fern (_Adiantum pedatum_) still looks pretty good, but as it grows new leaves they just keep getting smaller and smaller. It might need a winter dormancy. I'm not sure.









Here's the whole deal after I replanted it. I'm not crazy about the new plants that I got and I might try again.


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## hydrophyte

Here's just a couple more quick pictures.

Those new plants that I got don't stick up high enough in the layout, but they look nice viewed from above...










Here's a similar view, but with the leaf litter rolled back to show the false bottom assembly...


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## BryophyteOPhile

hydrophyte said:


> I have a good start on this project already.
> 
> We have a nice little _Viola_ and a NOID _Carex_ already growing nicely in the setup. I do have plans for moving the plants outside later in the season. They look very happy now.


Hello, I am just coming into this conversation now as I too wish to make a temperate forest setting. Did your viola species thrive longer than a year? Did you have to rest them?


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