# frogs that came into the US in the 90s



## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

I have compiled a list of frogs that were brought in and offered for sale in from November 1992 until March 1994 by The Serpent's Egg, a company operated by Stacy Surla and Volker Ennenbach in Washington DC.

The following list contains the frogs and descriptions from the mailers, the frogs are listed from 92 to 94 but I have omitted repeat offerings for the sake of saving space. 

Just one thing to consider, when the Phyllobates are offered they are going for more money than all other frogs at the time, except lehmanni which is the same price. Obviously Phyllobates have faired better under the stewardship of the US hobby than lehmanni, just compare the price today if you could find a lehmanni.

reticulatus
tinctorius table mtn half size
auratus green
pumilio bastimentos red, black spots
pumilio granulated
pumilio blue
pumilio red
pumilio red with blue legs
pumilio orange
pumilio Shepard
Atelopus flavescens
E. femoralis
ventrimaculatus (quinquevittatus)
tinctorius blue, black, yellow
tinctorius blue, black, white
tinctorius orange giant
E tricolor white
E tricolor red, yellow
E. tricolor brown, lime green
E. anthonyi
E. parvulus
E. billinguis
E. zaparo
histrionicus yellow, grey
histrionicus red, grey
E. erythromos
M. abditus
auratus brown, white
auratus dark green
tinctorius blue, yellow small
E. tricolor dark red, green, blue
E. tricolor wine red, brown
pumilio fluorescent orange
pumilio colon green
pumilio red with black legs
histrionicus bulls eye
lehmanni red
lehmanni yellow
A. pulchra
C. saulii
"variabilis"
fantasticus red headed
imitator green
imitator orange
ventrimaculatus from Heselhaus book
ventrimaculatus red quinque
E. azureventris
E. bassleri yellow
E. canairachi
E. pictus
E. silverstonei
E. trivittatus 3 stripe yellowish green
histrionicus bullseye
lehmanni orange
histrionicus black lots of small red spots
histrionicus black with large red spots
histrionicus brown, mint
histrionicus red headed
histrionicus orange, white back
histrionicus Playa de Oro
truncatus
M. bombetes
P. bicolor deep orange
P. aurontaenia
tinctorius dwarf
tinctorius yellow back
tinctorius white
quinquevittatus golden
auratus blue
A. barbatori
auratus small spotted
auratus Bocas del Toro
auratus Taboga
P. vittatus
luecomelas orange
lamasi

This ended when Volker moved back to Germany where he still is, and sold the business to Bill Samples in Isla Morada FL.

This is just part of what came into the US, not counting what John Uhern of Reptile Specialties brought in from Europe or what Jared Wolfe brought into Canada, which filtered down here sporadically. 

I will see about offering copies of what I have at Frogday for a TWI donation or something along that line.

ERic


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Eee Gaads!

:shock: 

My first thought (realizing that I was an orchid guy during those years, not a frog guy) is that we either have some really interesting 'hidden' frogs still in the hobby or we've killed off a lot of animals. :? 

S


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> My first thought (realizing that I was an orchid guy during those years, not a frog guy) is that we either have some really interesting 'hidden' frogs still in the hobby or we've killed off a lot of animals.


I suspect the latter. :?


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Wow, how sad that so many of these are no where to be seen. I only know of two people that still have histos, and they arent breeding for them. (Im sure there are others just the ones I know.)


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Prison time in French Guyana for smuggling will make a person want to change their occupation...I beleive it was for Oyopok Tincs. The most expensive frog offered back then was a pair of WC GO Tincs at $275 each, Lehmanni were $65 for red and $85 for yellow/orange. Histo's were in the same ballpark. And yes Shawn I would say most if not all Volker frogs are history....literally.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Now this is interesting history. I have to admit I hadn't heard of Volker, but I had heard of The Serpents Egg. I did not know that he sold everything off to Bill Samples though... too bad. I have some knowledge of Bill's dealings and the always renewing "it'll be here next month" shipments (for those who know, you know what I mean). 
That's a pretty impressive list I I would say that i have to agree that either someone is sitting on the motherload of frogs or they all fell away because people just didn't know how to keep some of them back then (not to say that all that much has changed now either). Maybe one day a project similar to Understory or INIBICO will give us a chance at some of the Columbian and Ecuadorian frogs again but provide them in a conservation minded way rather than the grab and go style that happened in the past.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

wow!!! that is an impressive list, i wonder how many of each were exported?


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## stevemc (Aug 13, 2007)

I remember going to Cliff and Bills (Bill Sample) house in Islamorda in the Keys in the 80s. They had a business called C&B wholesale marine fish. They caught tropical saltwater fish for the aquarium trade. They also bred darts and kept many types. Bill told me he was dealing with a guy in Europe, trading fish for frogs. They had a huge setup through out the whole house. At that time there werent very many breeders, and I was trying to find new species, and was directed to them by a guy in Melborne, FL who bred frogs, and dealt with Bill. Steve.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Interesting yet depressing as may of those species are no longer in the hobby and heck some may even be extinct.

Something that I find interesting is how much we have learned about the care of these animals over the last few years, and we have just begun.


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

Man, to have been in the hobby in those days...too bad I was 6 years old...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

AlexD said:


> Man, to have been in the hobby in those days...too bad I was 6 years old...


Man, to have been in the hobby when we had P. terribilis and D. galactanotus. Oh wait....


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

E. erythromos 
M. abditus 

?? did these come from imports?? Very few pictures are known of these species, I guess nobody took the effort of photographing them? I'd sure like to see some more pictures


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

> or they all fell away because people just didn't know how to keep some of them back then (not to say that all that much has changed now either).


Definitely, but I'm not sure I would agree that it was because people didn't understand the captive requirements of the frogs. I believe those frogs are no longer around because they were poorly managed by the hobby, something which hasn't changed much. the Internet is a great tool for communication and has potential to help, imagine TWI existing without it! We need to use our ability to communicate with one another to prevent the species/locales we have now from disapearing as they have in the past.

I think if anything that list of frogs makes me appreciate what I have the privelage to keep today. Somebody should compile a list of what has been offered by Marcus Breece or someone during the last two years and see how long that is!


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Great list Eric. I didn't know about several of those, but you can also add off the top of my head
auratus from Hawaii
auratus from Canal zone, Panama
imitator golden
lehmanni red
lehmanni yellow
ventrimaculatus from French Guyana

Best,

Chuck


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Why just the last two years. Marcus has been at it a lot longer than that. 



Devin Edmonds said:


> I think if anything that list of frogs makes me appreciate what I have the privelage to keep today. Somebody should compile a list of what has been offered by Marcus Breece or someone during the last two years and see how long that is!


Best,

Chuck


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

> Why just the last two years. Marcus has been at it a lot longer than that.


Just to compare apples to apples. I think Eric said those were from lists between 1992-94, and from some of the comments posted it seemed like people might be thinking about what an incredible array of frogs were available then. Didn't want people to loose sight about what's around right now!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

man if only i hadnt been a toddler at the time...or maybe just bein a rich kid with pdf connections would have done i  

thats really to bad about alot of those. it makes me sad that red lehmanni went for only 65$. thats my favorite dart frog and ill probably never have 1 or get a chance to try and breed them or even see 1 for that matter.

y wouldnt people do research about those animals before importing them here and selling them? it just shows how far weve actually come with pdfs tho


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I believe the original list mentioned here (by Eric) wouldn't be nearly as scarce now (we'd have offspring from more of them) if some of Marcus' packaging had been used back then.

I know Marcus spent a lot of time educating the exporters on how to package their frogs. In the past, 25 frogs in a plastic bag was the norm. There were not a lot of survivors on exports - and those that did survive were so weak that they likely didn't survive the following weeks.

So thank you Marcus for educating the exporters and giving these frogs a better chance at survival.

And no, I'm not a suck up,

s :?


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Not just exporters. We did it with exporters back for a shipment from Ecuador for the first Frog Day of Ecuadorian _D. histrionicus_. The exporter pack the stuff correctly because we sent him everything he need to ship them, paper towels, cup, lids, boxes and told him what to do. The were shipped beautifully but then they sat on outside a plane at LAX in 90+-degree heat and perished because fish and game didn't know what to do with them. 

Lets face it there wasn't much information on dart frogs, hardly any, on how to keep these animals, how to feed them, what to feed them, how to transport them, 20 years ago. We were all flying blind and doing the best we could. Vets who worked on frogs were did not exist. It was learn as you go and many of us spent lots of time on the phone talking with each other trying to figure out what to do. 

Best,

Chuck 



Scott said:


> I know Marcus spent a lot of time educating the exporters on how to package their frogs. In the past, 25 frogs in a plastic bag was the norm. There were not a lot of survivors on exports - and those that did survive were so weak that they likely didn't survive the following weeks.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

chuckpowell said:


> Lets face it there wasn't much information on dart frogs, hardly any, on how to keep these animals, how to feed them, what to feed them, how to transport them, 20 years ago. We were all flying blind and doing the best we could. Vets who worked on frogs were did not exist. It was learn as you go...


And we are all extremely thankful for your growing pains - as without them - the hobby would not be where it is today. Hopefully, the hobby will continue to grow and learn. Some of the advanced topics that have been under heavy discussion the last couple of years (LEDs, UV, soils, tank design, etc.) will hopefully usher the way for a future of greater success.



chuckpowell said:


> and many of us spent lots of time on the phone talking with each other trying to figure out what to do.


I had a discussion with some of the "frog gods" during an early morning IAD chat session - and it was suggested that the relative ease with which most hobbyists can access information regarding husbandry (online forums, care sheets, etc.) may actually be detrimental to the hobby. The online era permits hobbyists to gain all of the vital information to keep frogs alive in a very short time - but it may also be restricting growth of the hobby because it limits intellectual invention of new ways to answer the same problem. But I tend to disagree with this idea - because the online forums can act as a "conference call" where many talented froggers can combine their individual knowledge to address issues... the same as it was 20 years ago - but there are no long distance charges


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rozdaboff said:


> Some of the advanced topics that have been under heavy discussion the last couple of years (LEDs, UV, soils, tank design, etc.) will hopefully usher the way for a future of greater success.


And lets not forget management. Obviously, as Chuck pointed out, there was a lot of trial and error in the "good old days" and we know a lot more now than they knew then. But let's not kid ourselves for a minute that we've mastered the ability to stabilize new imports in captivity. Devin hit a very important point. I don't care how good you are as a frogger, you can't maintain a secure and stable population that retains genetic integrity by yourself. No zoo on the planet can do that. And no individual hobbyist can do it. It takes cooperation and coordination to manage a stable population that is distributed over several collections. As I've said before, much of the talk about successes with the recent pumilio imports gives me deja vue. We've heard it before with blue jeans and bri bri. Where are those frogs now? They are still here, but barely.



> I had a discussion with some of the "frog gods" during an early morning IAD chat session - and it was suggested that the relative ease with which most hobbyists can access information regarding husbandry (online forums, care sheets, etc.) may actually be detrimental to the hobby. ........ But I tend to disagree with this idea - because the online forums can act as a "conference call" where many talented froggers can combine their individual knowledge to address issues... the same as it was 20 years ago - but there are no long distance charges


I agree with you Oz. It's hard to argue that easy access to information is a net negative. I would agree that it makes the hobby accessible to a wider range of people, but the people who want to just quickly get info to have some success with frogs aren't going to be the innovative type anyway. There are many really bright people who have been in the hobby less than 5 years but are pushing that envelope and making significant contributions. Sure, time in the hobby can build experience, but it can also make people set in their ways and less likely to try new things.


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## Ontariofrogger1973 (Oct 18, 2008)

the two post above mine are very interesting and make you think. congrats guys. maybe its a balance between the info we have, yet still pushing forward for new ways to innovate.


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## Estrato (Jan 6, 2009)

Devin Edmonds said:


> Definitely, but I'm not sure I would agree that it was because people didn't understand the captive requirements of the frogs. I believe those frogs are no longer around because they were poorly managed by the hobby, something which hasn't changed much. the Internet is a great tool for communication and has potential to help, imagine TWI existing without it! We need to use our ability to communicate with one another to prevent the species/locales we have now from disapearing as they have in the past.


Amen to that. If it werent for the internet theres no way I would have acquired all the dart knowledge that I have now, and if I did what I learned in months on this board probably would have taken years. Hell, I wouldnt have even known people kept darts if it werent for the net. Who knows how many of those species would still be around if information moved as quick back then as it does now. There were probably great breeders who would have loved to get their hands on those frogs but had no idea they were even around.


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