# Oophaga Pumillio Bastimentos Red Frog Beach with continues shaking movements



## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Dear fellow PDF keepers,

I would like to hear you opinion on the next issue that we face here.

We have 2 O. P. Basti. RFB's in a 80x50x50 cm tank. We bought them (around 15-dec-2020) from a very well known breeder in Belgium (I am in very good contact with him and he is also helping) the bigger (hopefully female) is very well, but the bit smaller proven male (by calling) is not so good. They are from July and august 2020, so 5-6 months old by now.

When I got them they seems fine, moving in a nice way. After a while the male started to move with what seems spasms. See the first movie/clip below, click the link, I hope it works.

09-1-2021 First time I understood that it was not good: 7.89 MB file on MEGA

What I saw, is that the bigger frog is eating small fruit flies that are dusted with Repashy Ca plus. But the smaller male, I have not seen him eat them, and I have spent quite some time in front of the tank after feeding. He is eagerly eating springtales, but looks the other way when a fruitfly passes by. So our first idea is that this could be a Ca deficiency, just because he refuses to eat the dusted FF.

After this I put him apart, into a small container in to the bigger tank so make sure he would have the right temp and humidity. in that tank I kept him for 3 days and only fed dusted FF and also made sure a bit of Ca dust was spoiled on the floor for him to walk through. of course this dust was moistened to not have dry dust on the leaves. I have never seen him eat FF in these 3 days, but he seemed to improve (either from eating dusted FF or by absorbing Ca through his skin). He was trying to eat springtales through the clear sides of the small enclosure, so as he was better we released him again.

But slowly his movements went bad (spastic movements again, not so bad, but there). I bought Ca gluconate and turned the 10% solution in to a 1% solution and that helped. he immediately improved in his movements. Ok, at least something.

i am now feeding small FF (dusted), try to dust ST and feed those and I have started culturing pea-aphids, which I have seen him eat (the small ones). Those you can also dust with Repashy Ca plus. I have also just now acquired a culture of small wingless (so not flightless, but actual wingless) FF that some frogs like to eat better than the winged, but flightless version. Have not tried that yet, have to multiply them first..... but hoping that he will eat those as well.

i have to dose some Ca gluconate up till now every few days on him (increased to a 5% solution, to have more effect. see this next movie/video clip now how he was a few days ago, just before a next dose. 25-01-2021 : 208.79 MB file on MEGA

i am now wondering a bit if this could be something else than Ca shortage due to only eating STs. I also don't understand why the little bugger will not eat the FF, although I am very happy that he is now eating Aphids. I am thinking of feeding for a few weeks small portions of Aphids almost daily to get his Ca up as quick as possible and I am hoping he will eat the wingless as soon as I have cultured them into large enough numbers (should be so in a week or so).

O Yes, I have also started to mist by hand with some extra Vit and Ca/Mg solution in that water.

The rest of the environment:

tank with pond filter (matala) (4cm) on the bottom, Seramis (calcinated clay baked particles. I think it's called Turface in the US), 3 cm and on top of that 1 cm of gravel (3-4 mm stones), leaves on top. wood with bromeliads and some other plants growing on the sides and on the floor.
I used to spray with reverse osmosis water, but I am now adding 20% of soft tabwater to this. (soft as we have a filter that takes Ca out of the water. We live in a very hard water region, filter is based on an ion exchanger). Skylite leds on top, temperature in the tank 20-21 at night, 24-25 in the day. misting twice at 10 and 15.00 automatically and hand misting with the water with Vit and Ca/Mg.










I would be very great full if you can add your thoughts. Are you missing any information, pls ask. if you have similar experience, pls share. I really want to keep this one alive and well. trying all my frog experience (Phyllobatis Bicolor in the other tank and previous Epip Anthonyi. I understand the importance of Ca and Vitamins etc for these animals, so I dust every feeding. Asking a million questions to the breeder who is already saying that he will take the individual back and swap it for another as he is also very much involved in this problem and "his" animals. Only the Covid situation has prevented a visit to him as I am in The Netherlands and he is in Belgium and we are not allowed to travel abroad at this time. And a few other PDF keepers I know are also chipping in, and I really would like to thank them for that.

So. please share your ideas and experiences.


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## Minkey (Jul 21, 2013)

Hello! Sorry to hear about the little guy. I can’t watch your videos for some reason so I’m not sure how small or how much smaller he is to the female. Have you tried feeding him FF larva to fatten him up? Perhaps if he puts on some weight and increases in size he will be more comfortable eating larger FF?


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## jp1618 (Dec 28, 2020)

I got the video to work via a VPN for anyone who is having trouble viewing it.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

@Tijl @Encyclia @Socratic Monologue thoughts?


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Minkey said:


> Hello! Sorry to hear about the little guy. I can’t watch your videos for some reason so I’m not sure how small or how much smaller he is to the female. Have you tried feeding him FF larva to fatten him up? Perhaps if he puts on some weight and increases in size he will be more comfortable eating larger FF?


Thank you for your reply, but he is fat enough. Eats STs and his belly is (or seems) big enough.


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)




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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

fishingguy12345 said:


> @Tijl @Encyclia @Socratic Monologue thoughts?


I already talked to Harmen Jan a while aggo on this.

I'm convinced the frog had a disrupted electrolyte balance.The frog probably sufferd from a Calcium shorttage while growing up.
Insufficient D3 or even B6 are also possible, but I think that should have been solved by now. So damage had been done the first months of his life imo.

I also know the breeder Harmen Jan got the frogs from. He is not the 'well know breeder' Harmen Jan quotes he is, but the truth is he only started breeding most of his frogs, especialy pumilio only 1-2 years aggo.

Never the less, S. is a good breeder and does or has done a lot of research the last years and has perfect setup ups and aquired good knowledge during that time. I would defenitly trust him and I am convinced the frogs he breed are mostly very high quality lately. S. realy is a great guy, he only lacks some experience with the oophaga and it shows in some of his 'earlier' offspring.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I am betting Tijl is right. I think that one of the problems associated with Ca deficiency is seizures. Lots of stuff, some of it permanent impacts to the brain, can happen when a seizure occurs. As attached as you are to this frog, OP, it might be wise to trade it out with a different one. Sorry you are having this problem!

Mark


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> I am betting Tijl is right. I think that one of the problems associated with Ca deficiency is seizures. Lots of stuff, some of it permanent impacts to the brain, can happen when a seizure occurs. As attached as you are to this frog, OP, it might be wise to trade it out with a different one. Sorry you are having this problem!
> 
> Mark


Thanks Mark for your answer. So, you are suggesting that even if his is eating enough Ca now, the spasmatic movements may never go away. So, him being alive and eating and calling can coexist next to his problems. Just a bit spasmic in movement.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

This is exactly what I've told you before. Damage is done when the frog was growing.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I agree with Tijl and Mark. If the intent is to breed this pair, I would swap him out, either with the breeder when/if that becomes possible, or simply remove the frog and purchase another male if that is more practical. 

Even if he recovers well enough to be a good parent, there may well be something about the frog that ought not to be reproduced; captive feeding behaviors (an aversion to FFs could be part of this, or perhaps that frog morphed smaller than normal and preferred springtails for a longer time for that reason) are known to be transmissible to offspring (I haven't confirmed this specifically in frogs, but it is clearly true about a range of captive animal species and I have experienced it). 

It is good that the breeder is doing what they can to help remedy the situation. It sounds as if this frog maybe shouldn't have been sold, but that may not have been noticeable at the time of sale, and in any event everyone makes mistakes.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

In 2000 i came into the care of a pair of pumilio where one of animals presented with tremors and intermitted spastic movements. 

I replaced the aquarium lighting that illuminated the dart frog display that also included other enclosures of darts with uvb tubes and the tremors stopped. There are more details that i could include, but, i choose to be brief. Im not promoting anything as details are important. Yes, they are, but i feel i have the right state my experiences.

Perhaps reaching out to an arav vet with anuran specialty or at least interest would be worthwhile endeavor.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> In 2000 i came into the care of a pair of pumilio where one of animals presented with tremors and intermitted spastic movements.
> 
> I replaced the aquarium lighting that illuminated the dart frog display that also included other enclosures of darts with uvb tubes and the tremors stopped. There are more details that i could include, but, i choose to be brief. Im not promoting anything as details are important. Yes, they are, but i feel i have the right state my experiences.


I think it would be hard to find reasons against the therapeutic use of UVB by a skilled keeper to treat the suspected effects of hypocalcemia, especially in the genus that is most frequently reported to gain observable benefit from it.


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Tijl said:


> This is exactly what I've told you before. Damage is done when the frog was growing.


Yes, you did, thanks you Tijl.


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