# Can phyllobates & dendrobates interbreed?



## otterblue (Jun 18, 2008)

I don't want interbreeding but I would like to keep two different types of frogs in my 80 gallon (four of each kind).

The possibility of doing so requires research on my part and is a whole other discussion.

What I wanted to know first is just if dendrobates and phyllobates (as an example) can interbreed?


thanks! =)


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## tarbo96 (Jan 12, 2006)

A good question to always start with is..."does this benefit my frogs?"


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

otterblue said:


> I don't want interbreeding but I would like to keep two different types of frogs in my 80 gallon (four of each kind).
> 
> The possibility of doing so requires research on my part and is a whole other discussion.
> 
> ...


No not to my knowledge. They are to distantly related.. at the very least it would be highly highly unlikely...but then again nature is a sneaky girl.

As for mixing, if you aren't a very experienced keeper with a really nice setup...you're very likely to get lynched by the hobby crowed  ...And overall their concerns/reservations are usually justified.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/37060-hybrid-dart-frogs-dont-shoot.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ranitomeya/74094-thumbnails-w-dendrobates-phyllobates.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/15792-another-one-those-mixing-questions.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/8094-bicolors-dendrobates-can-they-breed.html


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Yes, I believe they can. For a first tank (or even your second or third or fourth, for that matter), mixing is generally discouraged. Mixed tanks can be done, but I only recommend doing it if 

1. Large quarters are provided (80+ gallons)

2. Fewer frogs would be living in the enclosure then you thought would work (5-6 maximum for an 80g) 

3. Inhabitants must coexist peacefully and naturally in the wild and must be physically incapable of crossbreeding (Example: Ameerga Bassleri with [I wanna say] Ranitomeya variabilis [But I am not completely sure]), 

4. The permanent enclosure must be suitable for both species' lifestyles, so it must have length and depth, as well as height, with large, durable plants and coconut huts, as well as bromelaids, film canisters, and other mounted plants that provide cover. 

5. Last but not least, you should have extensive experience keeping and breeding the two different species, so you know what you are doing when the time comes. 

Good luck!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frog dude said:


> Yes, I believe they can.


Where are you getting this? In almost 10 years I remember lots of mentions online, in books etc..of how they can't, but I don't remember ever seeing/hearing one where they can. Got a source? (I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, but I'm highly doubtful based on my research and what I know of genetics)


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## RichardA (Jul 15, 2009)

I am not going to jump on the train here, I am just going to say I am glad you at least asked here before mixing. That shows that you do at least take this into consideration and want to make informed decisions before just doing it.

There are plenty of "non-compatible" species that do interbreed in the snake world. I would guess that this could happen within certain families in the frog world as well.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

RichardA said:


> I am not going to jump on the train here, I am just going to say I am glad you at least asked here before mixing. That shows that you do at least take this into consideration and want to make informed decisions before just doing it.
> 
> There are plenty of "non-compatible" species that do interbreed in the snake world. I would guess that this could happen within certain families in the frog world as well.


I like your attitude Richard


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Keep in mind the possible creation and release of a Novel Pathogen. Keeping animals from different parts of the world together, can create a much bigger problem than the loss of your frogs. Pathogens can mutate in captivity, over time, and possibly begin attacking hosts that it did not affect before. From there, it is extremely easy for this mutated, Novel Pathogen, to escape into the wild. A single drop of water could fall from your viv, to the floor, and then be tracked outside on your tennis shoe, and you could be responsible for the deaths of countless animals.
Sounds like science fiction, huh? The last time I researched Chytrid, genetic testing was being done to try to find where it originated from. The form of Chytrid that is causing so much damage, appears to be unique. They have NOT found a genetic match in the wild. I have seen it surmised that Chytrid MAY be novel pathogen.
I'm of the opinion that mixing of species should only be done with species that co-exist in the wild. Even then, as frog dude stated, there are many other "requirements" to mixing, experience being up at the top of the list. Basically, if you have to ask if you can mix them, you probably do not have the experience necessary to properly mix species. I'm of the opinion that you should have hands on experience with each and every species you are considering mixing.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Keep in mind the possible creation and release of a Novel Pathogen. Keeping animals from different parts of the world together, can create a much bigger problem than the loss of your frogs. Pathogens can mutate in captivity, over time, and possibly begin attacking hosts that it did not affect before. From there, it is extremely easy for this mutated, Novel Pathogen, to escape into the wild. A single drop of water could fall from your viv, to the floor, and then be tracked outside on your tennis shoe, and you could be responsible for the deaths of countless animals.
> Sounds like science fiction, huh? The last time I researched Chytrid, genetic testing was being done to try to find where it originated from. The form of Chytrid that is causing so much damage, appears to be unique. They have NOT found a genetic match in the wild. I have seen it surmised that Chytrid MAY be novel pathogen.
> I'm of the opinion that mixing of species should only be done with species that co-exist in the wild. Even then, as frog dude stated, there are many other "requirements" to mixing, experience being up at the top of the list. Basically, if you have to ask if you can mix them, you probably do not have the experience necessary to properly mix species. I'm of the opinion that you should have hands on experience with each and every species you are considering mixing.


Good point.


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## otterblue (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks to all for the feedback. I'm not an advanced keeper by any means - intermediate at best. I think I won't mix species.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Therere severa examples in the wild where phyllobates and dendrobates are very nearby, mostly Columbia, where columbian auratus, Leucomelas, etc reside. Not sure whether those territories overlap in the slightest with terrbilis, bicolor, aurentaenia, etc. Phyllobates vittatus occurs with auratus and Pumilio populations sympatrically in Costa Rica and Panama.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Dendro Dave said:


> Where are you getting this? In almost 10 years I remember lots of mentions online, in books etc..of how they can't, but I don't remember ever seeing/hearing one where they can. Got a source? (I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, but I'm highly doubtful based on my research and what I know of genetics)


ahh, yes. I was under the impression that they could, but as an amateur hobbyist that has just barely started, you could say I am limited in my general knowledge of how PDF's work.

Thanks for the correction and sorry for my mistake.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

1. Glad to hear the OP won't mix. Although I'm not necessarily against mix tanks, they just have to be done right.

2. 100% not possible for species from separate genera to interbreed. Even some species within the same genera can't.


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## RichardA (Jul 15, 2009)

That is not completely accurate. There are tons of hybrid snakes in the hobby that are produced by mixing to separate genus and species to obtain a controlled hybrid. I am not a fan of this but it is done every day. Now.....that is with man controlling the situation, would they do it if left to their own devise? No, probably not. The most common is to cross lampropeltis with pantherophis.
They are called Jungle Corns or Super Corns. Its a king snake crossed with a corn snake. 



thedude said:


> 2. 100% not possible for species from separate genera to interbreed. Even some species within the same genera can't.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frog dude said:


> ahh, yes. I was under the impression that they could, but as an amateur hobbyist that has just barely started, you could say I am limited in my general knowledge of how PDF's work.
> 
> Thanks for the correction and sorry for my mistake.


It is all good, I was fairly sure but not 100%




thedude said:


> 1. Glad to hear the OP won't mix. Although I'm not necessarily against mix tanks, they just have to be done right.
> 
> 2. 100% not possible for species from separate genera to interbreed. Even some species within the same genera can't.





RichardA said:


> That is not completely accurate. There are tons of hybrid snakes in the hobby that are produced by mixing to separate genus and species to obtain a controlled hybrid. I am not a fan of this but it is done every day. Now.....that is with man controlling the situation, would they do it if left to their own devise? No, probably not. The most common is to cross lampropeltis with pantherophis.
> They are called Jungle Corns or Super Corns. Its a king snake crossed with a corn snake.


Ok see that is what I thought Dude, but then I also thought I'd heard of cases like Richard is talking of...so I don't know. Maybe the animals have different Ideas about what genera they are in....I mean they did just rearrange the dart frog family tree a few years back, finding some frogs were closer related I guess then they previously knew.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

RichardA said:


> That is not completely accurate. There are tons of hybrid snakes in the hobby that are produced by mixing to separate genus and species to obtain a controlled hybrid. I am not a fan of this but it is done every day. Now.....that is with man controlling the situation, would they do it if left to their own devise? No, probably not. The most common is to cross lampropeltis with pantherophis.
> They are called Jungle Corns or Super Corns. Its a king snake crossed with a corn snake.


I'm talking specifically about genera within dendrobatidae. Although those snakes most likely are not successful hybrids. As in, they could most likely not breed themselves.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

To answer the question- I have two multispecies setups that I have observed over the years that featured a combination of Dendrobates and Phyllobates species. In one setup I had P. bicolor with D. tinctorius ( powder blue) and in the other I have D. auratus (El Cope) with Phyllobates lugubris. 

For the most part, the dendrobates species pretend like the Phyllobates are not there. I've never witnessed any courtship behavior between them and its clear that they do not see each other as potential mates. The one exception is the male P. lugubris will often find a perch and call to the auratus but they don't pay attention to him. He's just looking for love in all of the wrong places. 

It's very clear that behavior and species recognition ( calls, visual queues) prevents interbreeding. Genetically speaking- are they able to breed is a different question.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

I keep a 0.0.2 group of Phyllobates vittatus with my. breeding pair of cobalt tincs in a 55 gallon. The tincs still actively call and breed and the vittatus are always out now (the cobalts seem to be functioning like dither fish in the aquarium hobby). I also have 0.0.2 D. t. azureus with 0.1.2 Ranitomeya sirensis "orange" in a 75 gallon. They all move right around each other and are always out. The azureus sleep in coco huts and the sirensis sleep in the bromeliads. They are all fat and I haven't had any problems with them being mixed ( no fighting and I watch them pretty closely all day long).


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Slightly off topic, but you can have hybrids between genera (sheep X goats), which is actually quite common with orchids. You can also have hybrids between families (chicken X guineafowl), which can actually produce fertile offspring.


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