# spindly leg syndrome



## Dendrodaved

I have a FG vent that just morphed out and after waiting 2+ months for this magic to happen, I afraid it is dead it hasn't really moved in about 4 days, maybe a little on the first couple of days. it's back legs have a normal look and muscle tone, but the front legs have no muscle at all, and look way too skinny for the body. the front legs are also stretched out "spread eagle" could this be spindly leg syndrome? does it affect front legs also? I have never seen any pics of spindly leg syndrome, so I really don't know what I'm looking at.


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## frogface

It sounds like spindly leg. Can you post a pic? Do a search on 'spindly' and you'll find lots of pics posted by other people. I'll see if I can find a good one.

eta: here's one http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/67040-new-froglet-sls-what-do.html


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## Pumilo

I'm sorry to say it sounds exactly like spindly leg syndrome. I have seen a recent post or two about spindly leg syndrome in the back legs but actually, spindly leg syndrome is almost always a problem with the front legs. 
I could confirm with a picture but from your description I'm 95% sure that's the problem. Sorry.
You're going to have to put him down. The accepted practice is to apply a large drop of Orajel or other brand Benzocaine (5 mm drop) to the frogs belly. See this article written by Ed. Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia


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## Dendrodaved

Ok, Here are some Pics of my guy/gal, oh and by the way it's still alive the back legs started moving, but it seems like it's front legs are either paralyzed or can't support his weight.


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## Boondoggle

Looks like SLS, but I've seen worse. You didn't say specifically, but I got the impression this is the first froglet this pair has morphed. It's not super-unusual for a new breeding pair (or a over-bred pair) to produce froglets with SLS. It sometimes takes a few tries for them to get it right.

The best thing you can do is concentrate on the parents nutrition, and double-check your husbandry conditions.

I know it can be a bummer, but if it's any consolation, I don't know one established frogger who has never had to deal with it at one time or another.


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## a1pha

I'm still a few months out from being ready to housing any pdfs so very curious about the causes or preventive measures for sls. Im sure there are answers elsewhere, but this seemed like a good time ask again!? 



Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 
So please excuse typos..


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## frogface

a1pha said:


> I'm still a few months out from being ready to housing any pdfs so very curious about the causes or preventive measures for sls. Im sure there are answers elsewhere, but this seemed like a good time ask again!?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk
> So please excuse typos..


I've read that it is parent nutrition, tad nutrition, temps, new parents, just happens sometimes, all of the above. I think I've also read that it is related to Vitamin A deficiency. Take a look around the board and search for vitamin deficiency, spindly leg syndrome, hmm can't think of what else.


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## james67

Pumilo said:


> You're going to have to put him down. The accepted practice is to apply a large drop of Orajel or other brand Benzocaine (5 mm drop) to the frogs belly. See this article written by Ed. Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia



EXTRA STRENGTH oragel 20+ % benzocaine. the frog may still need to be held while the anesthetic takes effect(they tend to move around a bit and you dont ant it to wipe off the meds). hold it gently between your thumb and forefinger, by the back legs, so that the ventral side (belly) is facing up and apply a generous portion of the orajel. while a drop the size of a pea is commonly suggested,, i dont see an issue using more, since, just like when an animal is put down intravenously, the goal is to overdose the animal with anesthetic.

james


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## Dendrodaved

frogface said:


> I've read that it is parent nutrition, tad nutrition, temps, new parents, just happens sometimes, all of the above. I think I've also read that it is related to Vitamin A deficiency. Take a look around the board and search for vitamin deficiency, spindly leg syndrome, hmm can't think of what else.



Apart from their regular supplements, I dust with vitamin A (Solaray Dry A, Beta Carotene & Retinyl Palmitate) twice a month. I have two more tads in the water and about 5 other eggs, hopefully those will develop ok, and these are new breeders, that was their first froglet. 

Thanks


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## Pumilo

What are their regular supplements and how often do you dust?


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## Dendrodaved

Pumilo said:


> What are their regular supplements and how often do you dust?


Herptivite & Rep-cal , and Repashy ICB alternate between the two and dust with every feeding once a day.


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## Pumilo

It sounds like your suppliments may be old as Repashy ICB was replaced with Repashy Calcium Plus a good number of months ago. The general consensus is to replace your vitamins every 6 months.


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## Dendrodaved

Pumilo said:


> It sounds like your suppliments may be old as Repashy ICB was replaced with Repashy Calcium Plus a good number of months ago. The general consensus is to replace your vitamins every 6 months.


when I posted b4 I just named Repashy ICB , but after your response I went to the fridge and got the bag and what I'm using is Repashy Calcium plus ICB, is that the same as the outdated Repashy you were referring to?


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## Pumilo

Dendrodaved said:


> when I posted b4 I just named Repashy ICB , but after your response I went to the fridge and got the bag and what I'm using is Repashy Calcium plus ICB, is that the same as the outdated Repashy you were referring to?


Yes it is. The newer, fresher ones are simply Repashy Calcium Plus. They no longer say ICB.


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## Dendrodaved

Pumilo said:


> Yes it is. The newer, fresher ones are simply Repashy Calcium Plus. They no longer say ICB.




Ok, Thanks alot Doug I'll replace all the supplements asap


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## Pumilo

If you get it in the plastic can instead of the foil pouch you can be sure it is the newer batch. No plastic cans were released with the ICB label. Then grab a black Sharpie and write the date you open it. Consider leaving the main can in the fridge and putting two or three weeks worth in a tightly sealed container to keep in the frog room. This will keep it more potent and freshest. Do not freeze.


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## billschwinn

Please if possible post a pic of the tank and describe how and how often watering is done.


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## Ed

frogface said:


> I've read that it is parent nutrition, tad nutrition, temps, new parents, just happens sometimes, all of the above. I think I've also read that it is related to Vitamin A deficiency. Take a look around the board and search for vitamin deficiency, spindly leg syndrome, hmm can't think of what else.


 
Based on anecdotal reports of "cures" there were a lot of potential causes of spindly leg in anurans however only two have been backed with hard data,
the first is if the water already has a moderate level of phosphates and then is filtered through carbon before use. This induces spindly leg in tadpoles reared in that water (this caused problems at several institutions before it was worked out that the carbon was leaching more phosphates into the water);
the second is improper supplementation of the adults.. and unpublished report out of NAIB in conjunction with the Baltimore Zoo, they were unable to get SLS in the froglets when the adults had a good supplementation program and this was backed up by the results that involved blocking the metabolic pathway of vitamin A in a direct developing frog.

In general, if you are seeing SLS, the first thing to look at is the supplementation of the adults. If they are not getting enough vitamin A, then the tadpoles prehatching and at metamorphosis are at risk of developmental issues (infertility, swollen tadpoles in the eggs are both indications of hypovitaminosis of A). 

Keep in mind that herptivite/rep-cal do not contain any vitamin A in the form of a retinoid, herptivite contains beta carotene, and the indications are that anurans either inefficiently convert beta carotene to A or do not convert it at all (which is similar to felids). 

Ed


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## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Based on anecdotal reports of "cures" there were a lot of potential causes of spindly leg in anurans however only two have been backed with hard data,
> the first is if the water already has a moderate level of phosphates and then is filtered through carbon before use. This induces spindly leg in tadpoles reared in that water (this caused problems at several institutions before it was worked out that the carbon was leaching more phosphates into the water);
> the second is improper supplementation of the adults.. and unpublished report out of NAIB in conjunction with the Baltimore Zoo, they were unable to get SLS in the froglets when the adults had a good supplementation program and this was backed up by the results that involved blocking the metabolic pathway of vitamin A in a direct developing frog.
> 
> In general, if you are seeing SLS, the first thing to look at is the supplementation of the adults. If they are not getting enough vitamin A, then the tadpoles prehatching and at metamorphosis are at risk of developmental issues (infertility, swollen tadpoles in the eggs are both indications of hypovitaminosis of A).
> 
> Keep in mind that herptivite/rep-cal do not contain any vitamin A in the form of a retinoid, herptivite contains beta carotene, and the indications are that anurans either inefficiently convert beta carotene to A or do not convert it at all (which is similar to felids).
> 
> Ed


Ed, I think I know the answer to this, but may I ask if you use Herptivite and/or Rep-cal for your frogs?


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## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Ed, I think I know the answer to this, but may I ask if you use Herptivite and/or Rep-cal for your frogs?


Not any more. 

Ed


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