# Feeder Variety - need help



## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok I'm starting to look at different feeder insects to culture. I'm looking at getting Pumilio Bastimentos and want to seed the tank with as much of a variety as possible. I will of course be feeding fruit flies but I'm gearing towards sustaining microfauna for (I hope) froglets.

Here is what I have that are staples:

Wingless Fruit Flies
Springtails
Isopods - (wood lice, sow bug, whatever the small soft bodied ones are)

Here is what I have that just popped up in the tank:
Fungus Knats
White & Red Mites
1 very tiny snail (so far... I know this isn't food and not desirable but it's there despite all the washing, sterilizing, etc. before putting anything in)

Here is what I want to avoid (I have enough issues with my house):
Termites
Cockroaches
Crickets (I like to sleep)

So to that end I've been trying to look at different things I might be able to seed the tank with. It's 155 gallons so there's gonna be lots of room (no pool). I'd like to get 10 - 15 species of microfauna for a variety.

I've been looking around on the internet so far mostly what I found is worms and would like to know the effects they have. Here is 1 site The Bug Farm, your source for live food cultures and supplies. that seems to carry a variety of small things. However I do not know what all these are or their living conditions or if they could be harmful. I've tried to research and am getting no where. Most of what I'm interested in and would like to know about for food of this site is:

Grindal Worms
Micro Worms
White Worms
Confused Flour Beetles (probably culture not seeding)
Vinegar Eels

Some other possible foods I'm intersted in but unsure of their size for feeding....

Silkworms (the babies are small and this would be an idea for when / if I get another chineese water dragon to eat the adults)
Bean Beatles
Pheonix Worms (I think someone said the small ones are good but unsure for frog size)
Waxworms (preferably lesser and would like to know if anyone has a source)
Silverfish

I'm open for suggestions but I prefer that it doesn't fly, make extreme noise, or find my house to be a happy home (cockroaches) or meal (termites).

I'm also unsure if frogs will eat spiders I probably have 50 different species of those as my house is infested I kill a few daily....

Any help would be wonderful! Thanks


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

what about ants? If you could acquire a queen of a nonaggressive species.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> what about ants? If you could acquire a queen of a nonaggressive species.


I thought about this and was considering it. You can order ants from some biological suppliers the problem is knowing which are not agressive and which won't tear the tank to shreds (the plants).


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

ive got some amphipods in my viv, which my frogs love. I haven't started a culture outside my viv yet, as I don't know what they eat.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

yeah do ants!, that would be so cool, and once they get established think about the unlimited supply of food!! 

No more FF cultures!! Maybe not but it would be cool. 

One thing though would the ants give them back some of their toxins? being that most ants have some venom, for defense. But i'm not sure, i would look into that though.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm not too sure about the ants... I've read pretty often that in captivity, most poison dart frogs won't eat them.
This happens to be true with my tincs also, they all tried one or two in the beginning, and now they shun them.


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Sarkany said:


> I'm not too sure about the ants... I've read pretty often that in captivity, most poison dart frogs won't eat them.
> This happens to be true with my tincs also, they all tried one or two in the beginning, and now they shun them.


I think that if the ants are colonized in the tank the frogs would get board with them and just rather eat the fruit flies, but if you where to culture them the frogs would really enjoy them. All the things I have read about frogs not eating the ants the ants where always in the viv, but im sure that the frogs ate some, just that there were some may that it didn't seem like it.
Also I think some species are better than others. Like little sugar ants most likely taste better than larger carpenter ants or ants that sting/bite.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> I think that if the ants are colonized in the tank the frogs would get board with them and just rather eat the fruit flies, but if you where to culture them the frogs would really enjoy them. All the things I have read about frogs not eating the ants the ants where always in the viv, but im sure that the frogs ate some, just that there were some may that it didn't seem like it.
> Also I think some species are better than others. Like little sugar ants most likely taste better than larger carpenter ants or ants that sting/bite.


Sounds logical that some ant species might be preferred by the frogs. 

However, in my case the ants weren't part of the frogs' normal diet (since there are none in the viv and I don't culture ants), I just picked some up from outside and chugged them into the viv and - as I said - the frogs would eat one or two in the beginning, the ants that hadn't been eaten by then were hesitantly stalked for a second or two, but not eaten. One could really see the reluctance to eat the ants. Tincs are such bottomless pits and to see them not going after the ants was strange, to say the least.  They also def. weren't bored with the ants as they'd not been fed ants before.

Well, maybe my tincs are just ant-haters.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I agree that something like a sugar ant would be best.

My problem on the ants is I'm limited to what's outside or what I can order online. We have very agressive carnivorous ants up here. They'll take down huge insects. So I'd be worried about them attacking the frogs. 

Now if i were in So. CA the little grease ants which might also be sugar ants (not an ant expert) would be great. They are non-aggressive and tiny. They are called grease ants cause the most common place for them is mechanical shops, which probably would not be good for frogs but I've seen them other places too. It's weird their only purpose in life seems to be to form an extremely long congo line lol you never see them actually carrying food.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

If you are worried about possible infestations if something gets loose I would highly recommend avoiding silverfish.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

That goes for the flour beetles as well. They are a damn _pest_.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I've rarely seen silverfish up here but have seen them.

As for the flour beetles I don't think that would be an issue I've never seen any up here. Actually I've only seen cockroaches up here a couple of times and they came in on good shipped in tho I know they will live up here there are a couple areas of the town that has them.

Unfortunately most feeders for reptiles and amphibians are "pests" but some are worse than others...


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> I've rarely seen silverfish up here but have seen them.
> 
> As for the flour beetles I don't think that would be an issue I've never seen any up here. Actually I've only seen cockroaches up here a couple of times and they came in on good shipped in tho I know they will live up here there are a couple areas of the town that has them.
> 
> Unfortunately most feeders for reptiles and amphibians are "pests" but some are worse than others...


True, some insects are worse "pests" than others (if I remember correctly, drosophilas are considered a pest as well; I've never had a problem with escaped ones though); however, flour beetles are really _something else_.
I'd never seen them before either until they were suddenly there , and proved _quite_ unwilling to part from our home. They will use practically _anything_ as a food source and to lay eggs in; they live long (about a year or so, not sure, might even be a bit longer) and they do lay a lot of eggs. I've discovered that as long as the temperature's no lower than approx. 19°C (66°F) and no higher than about 34°C (93°F) they will thrive in one's home. 
Also, they will get into containers that are so tightly sealed you don't know how the hell they've gotten in.
Then there is the fact that no matter how sure one is that they've finally gotten rid of the damn bugs, more will show up in a matter of days/weeks. 
As far as insects that can be considered "pests" go, I'd definitely rate them up there. Way above cricket-escapees. No need to use quotation marks here; they're not a "pest", they're a damn _pest_.

...
God, I hate flour beetles.
...

P.S.: Silverfish are pretty common in Germany, that's probably why hexentanz thought of them in the first place. If they're not in California that's cool then.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

LOL ok I'll keep that in mind since I was advised I would probably only be able to feed out the larva.

Really I want more info on the microfauna on that site but also different feeders that can be cultured.

I might do field sweeps in the summer. There is alot of undeveloped land and fields down in hope valley. I'd just need to find out if they have done any mesquito spraying down there but I doubt it as I don't think mesquitos are a problem there since the river runs pretty fast and doesn't really pool anywhere that I've seen.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Sarkany said:


> ...
> God, I hate flour beetles.
> ...


I am right there with you, we got an infestation in our cabinet and no matter how much we try and rid them they keep coming back!!!!!


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> LOL ok I'll keep that in mind since I was advised I would probably only be able to feed out the larva.


Huh? You're still talking about confused flour beetles, right? Well, I'm not sure whether it's Tribolium confusum (confused flour beetle) or T. castaneum (red flour beetle) I "keep" at home - they do look very similiar - but let me tell you, my frogs gobble the adult beetles up as though they were hydei (at least they got one use; however I'm still trying to get rid of them). In fact, I'd say the beetles are actually somewhat smaller than hydei (unless, of course, the hydei were underfed and are smaller than normal). About 4mm or so... (1/6 inches).




hexentanz said:


> I am right there with you, we got an infestation in our cabinet and no matter how much we try and rid them they keep coming back!!!!!


Wow. That sounds so familiar. I still haven't found a way to get completely rid of them either.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Sarkany said:


> Huh? You're still talking about confused flour beetles, right? Well, I'm not sure whether it's Tribolium confusum (confused flour beetle) or T. castaneum (red flour beetle) I "keep" at home - they do look very similiar - but let me tell you, my frogs gobble the adult beetles up as though they were hydei (at least they got one use; however I'm still trying to get rid of them). In fact, I'd say the beetles are actually somewhat smaller than hydei (unless, of course, the hydei were underfed and are smaller than normal). About 4mm or so... (1/6 inches).


Well, I'm looking at food for Pumilio Bastimentos. Not larger frogs. And even though I would like to provide the adults with a good variety I also have a mind to the froglets since they are more difficult to get appropriate food sizes for.

Of course this is all in the theory that I can get them to breed and even produce froglets but no one ever said being prepared was a sin.

It sounds like they would work well for adults.... I'm still trying to get all the size perspectives in place which is why I'm asking for help and the suitability of all the different food items.

I'm still very interested if any of the worms listed up there would cause serious issue for the vivarium in general and if they would be a good food source and capable of being seeded. My primary goal is to provide 10 - 15 types of microfauna for froglets and snacking and atleast 3-5 types of cultured food for the adults.

I know this sounds like alot of work but I know if I had to eat the same thing day in day out I'd hate it and in my experience most animals love variety.

On a side note I might end up doing this by trial and error. I'm thinking that I almost definately am going to get another Chinese Water Dragon and from my experience with the one I had before once I got her eating (she was very abused and sick when I got her) she was a little garbage gut and would eat anything that moved in the slightest. I had to watch my fingers! So worse comes to worse I might just try them all and dump the ones that don't work in with the living garbage gut.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

Froglets? Oops... I appear to have a very bad memory... I was talking about food for adult frogs.  

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that white worms need a temperature lower than 70°F to do good; also they do get rather big, up to one inch. Grindal worms might be a better choice, they're also smaller. 

As for the waxworms, they are rather high in fat content. More of a "treat" sort of thing for older frogs. 

With bean beetles I could see small frogs (not to mention froglets) have serious problems with, even my adult tincs sometimes had problems swallowing them. I've noticed that the beetles have a very firm shell, that might be why, I don't know. In any case, I've stopped feeding them, since I heard that feeding the frogs bean beetles can directly cause intestinal prolaps (I'm not sure whether this is true, but I'd rather not take the chance).

Silverfish would definitely like the climate inside the terrarium. They hide from any light, though (nocturnal and shy ). And they can be fast. Your frogs might not be able to find them. A big silverfish is bigger than a hydei, about twice as big or so. A small silverfish, however... 

While doing field sweepings, aphids are a nice choice. They can be cultured as well.

P.S.: Very small spiders will indeed be eaten. Very small.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Waxworms I'm very familiar with atleast the larger ones which is why I was surprised to see them listed as food I've never encountered the lesser waxworms so am interested in those.

Silverfish bother me but if they are good for the frogs they work for me. They aren't as bad as cockroaches or termites. Termites being the worst on my list because they can actually colonize the house and my house already has structural issues it doesn't need help falling down.

I have had cockroaches and silverfish in my house before. The cockroaches came in a phone we bought. Litterally in the phone it was pretty gross. The silverfish I saw as a kid in grocery bags and what not that had been stored for awhile but only 1 here or there. Neither seems to "infest" up here unless you live in an apartment where it's kept warm all the time and there is plenty of dirt for them to dig into.

I saw earwigs also as a kid usually in the bathroom around the toilet but have not seen one in probably 15 years. Same with the silverfish.

So I'm unsure if it is just the climate up here that kills them off in houses or what. We never used pesticides. Of course that could be why I have so many darned spiders. I really am not joking about the amount of spiders I have. I think my only worry with escapees is that I'll be boosting my spider population and no they are not usually just small spiders some are as big as a 50 cent piece. The ones that are little usually are too fast for me to even smash so I'm not sure how I would catch them.


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Been searchng google and here to find somewhere to order a feeder isopod culture, this thread seemed like the best bet short of starting a new thread.

Link? Help?

Thanks.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I'm pretty sure I saw some for sale in various sites listed in the links page:

Dendroboard.com - Links

Don't want to post 1 site or another as I haven't actually ordered any so I have no idea on if one is better than the other. Plus I wouldn't want to look like I'm plugging for 1 vendor and not another 

EDIT: on another note I'm still looking for information on most of the worms and such as a food source like the grindal worm, white worm, etc....


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> Dendroboard.com - Links
> 
> Don't want to post 1 site or another as I haven't actually ordered any so I have no idea on if one is better than the other.


I went through all the "food/medium" links earlier tonight and only Carolina had isopods available, but not the right kind. I understand not wanting to appear to vet a supplier you have no experience with - PM me if anybody sees somewhere I can try.

I have bean beetles if anyone who lives in a state they're legal to ship to wants to trade.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

isopods good. i do know of one supplier is cindy and she sends out great cultures imo....woodlice...vivarium concepts.com . th babes could be fed off andviv seeded......this goes for you to shockingelk. i had a tinc male stressed in quarantine i think as fecals
and things looked great, would not eat. when i tried the woodlice finally ate one or maybe he just got hungry ? but he didnt pass it down and wanted more. i was worried as he was rail thin. now i have got him back to eating fruit flies. stubborn tinc.still needs to keep gaining weight but getting better . kristy


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Sorry I knew Vivarium Concepts sells them lol like I said I just didn't want to throw a name out there. I also didn't realize they weren't listed under supplies or food.


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