# Am I just paraniod?



## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hey All,

So I do not have any photo at this time (attempting to find charger for the good camera), I will try to get a few photos, but anywho !

...One of my F/S leucs (around 11-12 months) seems skinny to me, or maybe I'm just paranoid. He (and I say he bc he is about the same size as my male, and my females are HUGE, so assuming he is a male) just seems not as "fat as the others". He has a nice belly, so that makes me think "oh he is just fine", but when I look at him from above, he looks skinny as he is more fatty on the belly rather than plump on the sides. You cannot see any spine area/ribs/ect, but has a more pronounced sacral hump than my other leucs. I hear the back leg area is a good indicator of skinny/healthy frog and they are comparable to my other leucs...

He has been fecal tested a few months back healthy, no signs of "bullying", although he has always been the runt since I first got them. He is very bold, always out with the others and eats very very well. Fruit flies and springs. Supplements include staple Replashy Cal plus, SuperPig once a week, and Rep-Cal/Herpvitative(?) every now and then. He is in a 55 gallon viv with 3 other F/S Leucs.

I know this thread is pretty much worthless without photos, but maybe you can just tell by the description....i just wish i could find my camera charger 

Any and all help is appreciated. I hope I'm just being over-paranoid, he acts just fine, just looks small at times.

Thanks for any help given !

EDIT: Ah HA ! Found my camera charger!! ...although they will be all tucked in for the night by the time it charged. I will snap photos tomorrow and post.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Alright, here are some photos. Hopefully this helps....btw the first photo is one of the best shots I've got of the Leucs  ! haha









































Sorry, the last one kinda sucks ! Last one I got b4 the battery died again !


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Well, he's not fat. Can you post him in comparison with other leucs in his tank?


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

I dont have any pics thus far, I'll have to try tomorrow....but my other leucs are more "round" as seen in this photo:










The leuc in question has a good sized belly, but he isn't "round" like my other ones. He eats like a pig, but isn't as "round". I dont think he is sickly skinny, but he sure is not fat. He seems healthy, showing normal behaviors and interacting well. I dunno. I hope I'm just paranoid and just need to go on a weight gaining program.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

This looks like a frog that has been hungry for a while and just got a good meal. If I am wrong, please forgive me.

Referring to post 2..

JBear


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't think he looks dangerously thin. My Leucs are hogs and seem to lose weight quickly if not fed enough. I'd make sure he's getting enough to eat and keep an eye on him.

Do you know the sexes of the frogs?


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

jbherpin said:


> This looks like a frog that has been hungry for a while and just got a good meal. If I am wrong, please forgive me.
> 
> Referring to post 2..
> 
> JBear


He has looked like this for a while now, he eats well, just does not get "round" like the others.....sorry, I'm not sure what exactly your saying, hopefully this response answers it, but he eats just as much as all the others. 

No, thank you for the response. All feedback/help is much appreciated


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

frogface said:


> I don't think he looks dangerously thin. My Leucs are hogs and seem to lose weight quickly if not fed enough. I'd make sure he's getting enough to eat and keep an eye on him.
> 
> Do you know the sexes of the frogs?


I've been pondering on taking him out and attempting to bulk him up a bit....or I may try to feed in small doses more often. I feed every other day.

Sexes are 1 calling male, 2 possible females (due to overall size) and the smallest I believe would be a male, although no calling yet.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

The first frog is the small one, right? How about the second picture? Are those the 2 possible females? How does the calling male compare to the possible females?

I have a pair of leucs and my experience is limited to just my observation of them. My female is much larger than my male and much rounder in the belly. Compared to her, he looks almost thin at times.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

frogface said:


> The first frog is the small one, right? How about the second picture? Are those the 2 possible females? How does the calling male compare to the possible females?
> 
> I have a pair of leucs and my experience is limited to just my observation of them. My female is much larger than my male and much rounder in the belly. Compared to her, he looks almost thin at times.


Yes, first photos are the smallest one (possible male). The other photo, the calling male is on top and female is on bottom. You really cannot tell from that photo, but the poss female(s) are quite larger than the calling male and possible smaller male (which are about the same length, but my calling male is "rounder" than my smallest frog, the one in question....


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## Froggyplush (Oct 28, 2011)

looks good compared to the sway back frogs at pet store today now they looked skinny


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I asked someone smarter than me to look at your thread


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Froggyplush said:


> looks good compared to the sway back frogs at pet store today now they looked skinny


Thank for the reply. Yeah, I dont think he is fat by any means, but fat does not mean healthy. I dont have any local pet stores with darts, but I've heard some horror stories and I'm glad none of the stores around me carry pets like that.....I would like some additional opinions though...but appreciate the opinions already


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

frogface said:


> I asked someone smarter than me to look at your thread


Thank you. Although you were quite helpful yourself.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

You also have to consider that Dendrobates "wear" thier backbone pretty high and pronounced, particularly in males. The reason I made took the position I did was the bumps and distortions of the midsection. It truly looked like a frog that was very thin for a bit, and suddenly well fed.

In the beggining of my hobbying, I had a hard time culturing sustainable pops due to mite infestations, which then led to small famines of a week drought sometimes. This is not ideal. While, as proven in my case, not fatal in all circumstances, but unfortunately I HAVE seen this body look. Maybe I jumped the gun, and it was consistent angle distortion, but, that is what I saw.

JBear


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

jbherpin said:


> You also have to consider that Dendrobates "wear thier backbone pretty high and pronounced, particularly in males. The reason I made took the position I did was the bumps and distortions of the midsection. It truly looked like a frog that was very thin for a bit, and suddenly well fed.
> 
> In the beggining of my hobbying, I had a hard time culturing sustainable pops due to mite infestations, which them led to small famines of a week drought sometimes. This is not ideal. While, as proven in my case, not fatal in all circumstances, but unfortunately I HAVE seen this body look. Maybe I jumped the gun, and it was consistent angle distortion, but, that is what I saw.
> 
> JBear


I understand where you are coming from. I can see how you viewed that from the photos. The backbone and size is an indicator to me that he would be a possible male though. I feed every other day now, but may try to feed everyday, but not necessarily smaller doses, but enough to put some bulk on him. As soon as I dump flies in the viv, he and all the others go at it and he will eat just as much as the others, I've been looking for maybe he is being out competed to the food or bullied out of eating, but that is not the case as he is a very prolific eater, which is a little confusing bc I figured he would not be AS thin....


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Brian317 said:


> I understand where you are coming from. I can see how you viewed that from the photos. The backbone and size is an indicator to me that he would be a possible male though. I feed every other day now, but may try to feed everyday, but not necessarily smaller doses, but enough to put some bulk on him. As soon as I dump flies in the viv, he and all the others go at it and he will eat just as much as the others, I've been looking for maybe he is being out competed to the food or bullied out of eating, but that is not the case as he is a very prolific eater, which is a little confusing bc I figured he would not be AS thin....


In my eperience the females rule the roost. They eat first, they eat the most, and the males are left with clean up. What I do to combat this trend, is a heavy initial feeding, followed about an hour later by a smaller supplemental feeding. Granted this is a bit more time consuming, with a small collection, there is real benefit.

JBear


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Very helpful advise. I will try this out. It may be a bit more spread out when I'm at work...maybe heavy feed when I leave and light feed when I return home. Something to consider though. I would just like to see a bit more bulk on this guy. I dont think he is health threatening thin, but would need to build some bulk up. Appreciate all the help


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

"He" will put weight back on provided the feedings are regular and timely. I would heavily emphasize the need to make sure supps are not old, and are supplied at proper intervals. This will be a key factor in sustained health. Another factor to consider and a paramount key to success, is giving space and patience. Feed well, use appropriate supps, and at the right intervals, and you should see a complete recovery. Truly, all my best...

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Keep in mind that the frog also looks thin when compared to captive frogs which are typically fairly obsese particularly when compared to the wild populations. If you have a good reference picture of them in the wild, it doesn't look unusually thin... Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, I think has some comparision shots that are a good benchmark. 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> Keep in mind that the frog also looks thin when compared to captive frogs which are typically fairly obsese particularly when compared to the wild populations. If you have a good reference picture of them in the wild, it doesn't look unusually thin... Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, I think has some comparision shots that are a good benchmark.
> 
> Ed


Ed, this is a good point, but I think we all strive to do better than the randomness of wild survival.

JBear


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ed said:


> Keep in mind that the frog also looks thin when compared to captive frogs which are typically fairly obsese particularly when compared to the wild populations. If you have a good reference picture of them in the wild, it doesn't look unusually thin... Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, I think has some comparision shots that are a good benchmark.
> 
> Ed


Very good point. I'll search for some photos/videos/books of wild leuc populations. What is your opinion on the overall healthiness of the frog in question? I'm curious to hear, you have always been a great help.



jbherpin said:


> Ed, this is a good point, but I think we all strive to do better than the randomness of wild survival.
> 
> JBear


I'd like to think this. You'd want your frogs to feel happy, comfortable, and healthy in captivity. I don't think anybody would oppose that...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> Ed, this is a good point, but I think we all strive to do better than the randomness of wild survival.
> 
> JBear


Hmmm If I understand you correctly, I'm not sure I buy the idea that obese frogs are doing better than the randomness of wild survivial..... 
If one looks through the literature on husbandry of captive amphibians we often see comments about how obesity is common in captive amphibians and specifically many anurans. This is defined by the fact that they tend to have huge fat reserves.... This is because it is very easy to over feed an a frog that has access to microfauna, as well as large inputs of other feeders such as fruit flies. These frogs are conditioned to take advantage of food surpluses by feeding heavily as the conditions tomorrow or next week may not be as bountiful. We can see that this does cause abnormal behaviors in the frog ranging from reports of fertile clutch depositions in obligate egg feeders while feeding tadpoles to abnormal body appearences due to the large fat pads. In general, captive amphibians are obese to grossly obese when compared to the wild frogs. I can link you to some of the calculations that I worked out on how much a frog really needs to eat a week.... 

It was noted above that you could judge a frog's nutritional status be the conditons of the legs and this is partially true since if a frog is losing weight in it's legs that is an indication that the fat reserves (typically stored in the abdominal cavity) are exhausted or close to exhaustion so the frog is breaking down muscle tissue. 

And for your viewing pleasure a marbled salamander that was housed at 60 F and fed 12 small crickets a week and was able to obtain these rather zaftig proportions.... 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> Keep in mind that the frog also looks thin when compared to captive frogs which are typically fairly obsese particularly when compared to the wild populations. If you have a good reference picture of them in the wild, it doesn't look unusually thin... Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, I think has some comparision shots that are a good benchmark.
> 
> Ed


Wouldn't you expect the frogs in the same tank to have the same level of captive obesity?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Wouldn't you expect the frogs in the same tank to have the same level of captive obesity?


Not necessarily. Competition for food, reproductive out put, calling all can change the level of food consumption. I really would expect obesity to be close to even if all of the enclosures were fed extremely heavily... 

There have been some good discussions on this in the past see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/9923-how-many-times-week-do-you-feed-your-frogs.html 



Ed


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Very interesting post. Good information on feeding in that thread.

Maybe I should bump up the feeding in the tank just a bit and get more of a frequent pattern going. So this is new information that frogs in the same tank could differ in size like such. I dont think my frog in question is fat or obese by all means, but sounds like he is slim, but could always pack on a few extra flies. I just dont want to bump up feedings and he puts on bulk and my other 3 leucs are rolling around the tank 

Thank you for the response


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can always set up more than one feeding station to reduce competition at any single station. Put one where the smaller male hangs out and another where the other male and females hangs out (a sight barrier can help with this as well). 

Ed


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Brian317 said:


> I dont have any pics thus far, I'll have to try tomorrow....but my other leucs are more "round" as seen in this photo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, they look fine to me. They don't look thin or obese.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thank you both. I'll put that on my "to-do" list with the separate feeding stations. Appreciate the help and opinions. It is very helpful


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

So I think I figured out what is going on. I went to feed today and saw definite signs of bullying going on. Possibly stressing out the smaller one, so I took him out and have him in a separate tank for now to put on bulk....After he gains more weight, I will prolly put him back in the 55 gallon with the rest.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brian317 said:


> So I think I figured out what is going on. I went to feed today and saw definite signs of bullying going on. Possibly stressing out the smaller one, so I took him out and have him in a separate tank for now to put on bulk....After he gains more weight, I will prolly put him back in the 55 gallon with the rest.


If you remove him for any length of time and then return him to the group, there is a significant chance that the aggression will actually increase. This is because the removed frog will be considered an intruder. This will result in an escalation of the behaviors and the frog having been removed and returned will have less familiarity with routes of escape. This is a considerable risk. 
If you do this, you need to remove every one and rearrange a decent amount of the enclosure to prevent the behaviors. Alternately remove all of the frogs at the same time to prevent an increase in territorial aggressions and add some sight barriers where the second male can hide from the other male. 

Ed


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hmm, maybe that is not the best route then. I dont want the aggression to worsen, nor to I have the capacity to remove them all and introduce them all back eventually. I have not moved him yet, just set up a tank, but I'll have to think this over before continuing...prolly not the best route...


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