# powdered fish foods for supplementation



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Which are technically safe for frogs? I've heard of people using fish food for color enhancing, but I'm not sure how healthy that is for a dart frog. Most of that stuff contains fish meal which is pretty unnatural. I have used cyclopeeze, but that is technically a crustacean, not ground fish meal.

couldn't feeding things that derive a lot of protein from fish could cause things like encephalitis? Mostly because its not natural for them to consume animal protein in that matter. It's a little different with larger frogs like bombina or xenopus, but they will eat fish more readily in captivity.

I already know about the caratenoid thing, because we've discussed this about a hundred times already. I'm actually more interested in providing more protein for my animals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

For many many years, standard Tetra-Min flake foods and Aquarian Fish Flakes were the preferred food choices without any problems. 
If you look at the history of this, the tadpoles were originally reared on things like nettle powder and other vegetable sources with some succcess. Over time people switched to fish food for convience with great success and then over the last ten years for some reason people have switched back to plant based diet. 

snip "couldn't feeding things that derive a lot of protein from fish could cause things like encephalitis? Mostly because its not natural for them to consume animal protein in that matter. "endsnip

Why do you assume its not normal for them to consume animal protien? They readily canibalize each other for more protien... 
Also people have to remember that protien is to a large extent protien.. The general amino acids are the same (although some sources may have different ratios or lack one or another) regardless of the source. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed, to clarify, I was talking about adult frogs, powdering the fish food and putting it on fruit flies for increased protein and for extra caratenoids.

Ok, yes, proteins are pretty similar. But fish protein though for adult frogs? 

I am aware that some people have powdered fish food for color enhancing adult frogs like leucs, but I do believe brent brock mentioned that testesterone can sometimes be added. How to know that, I don't know. 

I use fish food mostly for tadpoles though.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would have to dig the actual numbers out but you could cause issues by significantly changing the ratio of fats, protiens and carbohydrates in the diet. There are specific optimal ranges for carnivores.. 
This would be due to an overall change not because it is from fish... 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> I am aware that some people have powdered fish food for color enhancing adult frogs like leucs, but I do believe brent brock mentioned that testesterone can sometimes be added. How to know that, I don't know.


I don't recall mentioning testosterone as a food supplement. I have mentioned a variety of carotenoids for color enhancement. By far the best luck I've had for coloring up blue jeans pumilio is astaxanthin in the form of Naturose (which Ed turned me on to).

My general philosophy on supplementation is that variety and moderation are good. Too much of anything is bad.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

you didn't mention using testosterone as a supplement, but you once said that sometimes they add testosterone to fish foods to get various fishes into breeding condition, which is something to look out for. However, knowing which do and which don't I don't know if they use a scientific name for the ingredient in the list that wouldn't just simply say "testosterone."

So, how do I know which fish foods have it and which don't?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I believe that I was the one that mentioned that some color enhacement fish foods can contain testosterone or analogs as this causes a greater increase in coloration. 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Ed said:


> I believe that I was the one that mentioned that some color enhacement fish foods can contain testosterone or analogs as this causes a greater increase in coloration.
> 
> Ed


Ah, mystery solved. I haven't kept fish for a looong time. I honestly think Carter was President the last time bred any fish.

But Ed's comment does make sense given that colorful fish are often sexually dimorphic so making a male fish "more male" would trigger the most intense coloration. Seems like it would be unlikely to work for frogs though given that they aren't sexually dimorphic and their colors aren't tied to the breeding cycle (at least as far as we can tell).


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## brian_ (Sep 16, 2006)

I am going to be powdering my FF's with Naturose (astaxanthin powder) when I get darts that have an orange, or red colour that I want to deepen/enhance.

I also will be adding spirulina powder, pure hawaiin brand to my FF's in order to enhance the blues on my azureus and cobalts, etc.

I have been breeding discus for a couple years and adding these naturally enhances their colour a lot.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

any place where I can order naturose for cheap?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> any place where I can order naturose for cheap?


I don't know that I would call this cheap, but this is where I bought it:

http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/c1/c8/ ... e-c64.html

Also, my experience has been that it is much more difficult to "re-color" a frog that has lost its color than to raise the frog on the proper diet for color in the first place. I've observed that pumilio raised in a large viv with a diversity of microfauna retain better coloration as adults than those that are reared primarily on springtails and ff. Small amounts of carotenoid supplements during development seem to do the trick. With that said, I had a couple of pumilio that were pretty dull and didn't seem to respond to any color supplements until I started giving them the Naturose. This is the only supplement I've seen the color of adult pumilio respond noticeably to.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Brent, have you tried phytoplankton? Right now I am feeding my mantella tadpoles on some, and it is very fine and powdery.

It contains more than just astaxanthin, according to the label. Several varieties of caratenoids are used. You can buy it from Thatfishplace. It is made by 2 little fishies. 

I have pondered whether it'd be good to mix in with a supplement for metamorphed frogs, not just tadpoles alone.

Frogs would get more variety than cyclopeeze via phytoplankton.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Brent, have you tried phytoplankton? Right now I am feeding my mantella tadpoles on some, and it is very fine and powdery.
> 
> It contains more than just astaxanthin, according to the label. Several varieties of caratenoids are used. You can buy it from Thatfishplace. It is made by 2 little fishies.
> 
> ...


I've used cyclopeze but "phytoplankton" is a very broad term but I don't think I've tried the brand you are talking about. I have a homemade powder of a variety of carotenoid rich fruits and vegetables that I use. Another thing I do in my large pumilio viv is to occassionally sprinkle unused powder on the soil. The substrate is clay and my thinking is that the compounds become incorporated into the microfauna much as they would in nature. I think that is a large reason why leaving froglets in the viv yields more robust and brightly colored animals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I also will be adding spirulina powder, pure hawaiin brand to my FF's in order to enhance the blues on my azureus and cobalts, etc."endsnip

While this is commonly recommended and used I have strong doubts that this has any effect on the intensity of the blue color (or on the blue in any way) in the frogs. Blue coloration is due to the reflection of blue light from the iridiopore layer without any interference of carotoids (as for example if it passed through yellow carotenoid containing xanthopores you would get a green frog) of the frog not from the sequestering of a blue carotenoid. 

While the addition, won't hurt the frogs ( and theoretically may help in with some other nutritional issues, don't expect much change for your blue color). 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed, how good does it help green frogs? Will it help bronze auratus become more lime green than turquoise then?

Brent, are you using a food dehydrator in order to powder your items? Or are you cooking and mashing it, then letting it harden in which you can crumble and mix it with a mortar and pestle?

About the comment concerning the microfauna incorporation, we're assuming we have established springtails and mites the frogs are feeding on, or are the frogs ingesting small traces of it during foraging?

Ed mentioned once said that he thinks that the frogs pick up calcium when they ingest small traces of substrate in the wild.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Ed, how good does it help green frogs? Will it help bronze auratus become more lime green than turquoise then?"endsnip

The amount of green is going to be dependent on the number of iridiopores in the frog as well as the amount of carotenoids and the lack of melanin in the skin. If there isn't enough reflective plates in the iridiopore then the color supplementation will not help. If there is to much melanin in the skin it won't help. If the color of the frog is due to a lack of yellow carotenoids then it should help.. 


snip "About the comment concerning the microfauna incorporation, we're assuming we have established springtails and mites the frogs are feeding on, or are the frogs ingesting small traces of it during foraging?"endsnip 

While this may occur, remember that the microfauna are going to ingesting the supplement and the frogs are going to ingest the microfauna. 

snip "Ed mentioned once said that he thinks that the frogs pick up calcium when they ingest small traces of substrate in the wild."endsnip

I don't think so, its documented in the literature.... 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Brent, are you using a food dehydrator in order to powder your items? Or are you cooking and mashing it, then letting it harden in which you can crumble and mix it with a mortar and pestle?


I use a food dehydator to dry the items, then put the chunks through a blender to powder and finish with a mortar and pestle. It is a huge pain but it allows me to make sure that all of the various carotenoid groups are included. FYI, don't bother dehydrating tomato paste for the lycopene. Buy powdered tomatos instead. It is well worth the expense because it saves an enormous amount of time.



> About the comment concerning the microfauna incorporation, we're assuming we have established springtails and mites the frogs are feeding on, or are the frogs ingesting small traces of it during foraging?


Mostly they are foraging on the microfauna but probably picking up a little incidentally as well. This particular viv is quite large (close to 100 gal. capacity) with only 3 adult pumilio in it. So the leaf litter is full of lots of creepy crawlies. Springtails, mites, isopods, centipedes, slugs, a few snails, millipedes, earwigs, and some beetle I've never identified have all been seen in the litter... in addition to nematodes and what are apparently nemertines (sp?) - some earth worm with a snout looking thing. With the densities that frogs are normally kept in vivs, this diversity of microfauna never forms. So I don't bother putting the powder in any of my smaller vivs.



> Ed mentioned once said that he thinks that the frogs pick up calcium when they ingest small traces of substrate in the wild.


That's one of the many reasons I use clay-based substrates in most of my vivs.


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## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Brent,

What exactly is this clay-based substrate you use? Ive always heard of everyone using orchid bark as a base with other things added.

Chris


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

tinctoritus said:


> Brent,
> 
> What exactly is this clay-based substrate you use? Ive always heard of everyone using orchid bark as a base with other things added.
> 
> Chris


I'm a renegade about substrates because I think viviculture relies too much on horticulture practices when our goals are very different from the goals of horticulture. I've used two types of clay-based substrates. The first is cheap non-clumping kitty litter (no odor control etc.). My first two vivs I set up for dart frogs over 10 years ago have never been broken down and are still going strong with this stuff.

More recently I've started using a mix of treated Redart clay (availble for pottery) and native soil. To treat, I mix the clay with water to form a potter's clay consistency, roll the dough out into a 1/4" slab, let it dry, then bust it up into pea-sized chunks with a hammer. Then I mix the clay chunks 3:1 with soil collected from beneath conifers to add a little drainage and innoculate with mycorrhizal bacteria. I love the stuff. This is a bit out of date but describes a little about why I do it and how it works:

http://www.bbrock.frognet.org/informati ... #substrate


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

how fine is naturose? Unfortunately, cyclopeeze seems to be better as a tadpole food becuase it doesn't stick very well (not easy to grind even with added calcium). You can still find small pieces which don't stick well.

Is this naturose as fine as spirulina powder? That stuff is very easy to dust onto fruit flies and crickets.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't have much to add that brent and ed havent' said already, but my first response to the fish food thing was wondering why you didn't use peprika instead... you're looking at pretty similar caroteniods to the cheap fish foods found in chain stores I believe? Adding a lot of crap to your powders with what else is in fish food...

My turn for a question! We've brought this up vaguely in the past, but I'm wondering if using Nutrose and peprika together would be a good idea or bad? I don't know how similar they are... if they are different enough wouldn't it be a good thing to expand the range of caretiniods the frogs are being exposed to.

Can't seem to find a source for non-clumping cat litter that is clay based... finding a lot that are either clumping, or not even made of clay. Don't even know if walmart or mu grocery store will have them... will have to look.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Is this naturose as fine as spirulina powder? That stuff is very easy to dust onto fruit flies and crickets.


Yes, as a dusting powder it works very well. Just picture spirulina powder only red.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> My turn for a question! We've brought this up vaguely in the past, but I'm wondering if using Nutrose and peprika together would be a good idea or bad? I don't know how similar they are... if they are different enough wouldn't it be a good thing to expand the range of caretiniods the frogs are being exposed to.
> .


I asked about cyclop-eeze on a different post, concerning the cartenoids it contains (from the info I have seen on Naturose, the active ingredients are similar if I read/remember right), and from what I remember the cyclop-eeze has different cartenoids that paprika has...so I was thinking using both on a rotating basis (or a blend) would be better than one or another.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "My turn for a question! We've brought this up vaguely in the past, but I'm wondering if using Nutrose and peprika together would be a good idea or bad? I don't know how similar they are... if they are different enough wouldn't it be a good thing to expand the range of caretiniods the frogs are being exposed to."endsnip

It should be fine. (this is a best guess as there hasn't been enough work done with the 500 or so different carotenoids to determine if they can act in a synergistic or antagonistic fashion....)


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Somewhere on this forum Ben Green posted a great web site that lists the major groups of carotenoids and good sources for them. That list formed the basis for my custom powder. Although I think that powder is probably a fantastic food supplement in general, I honestly have seen the best color results with the naturose alone. I also bought some cyclopeze after Ed mentioned it to me. First I had to take out a loan to buy the stuff. Then it is so oily that even after grinding with mortar and pestel it still doesn't stick as a powder very well. Then the dang dog got hold of it and ate $30 worth of the crap one day. As a tadpole food I think it would be excellent. As a dusting supplement, I'll stick with naturose.

BTW, I add naturose to ff media and my pumilio have held their even though I rarely dust with naturose anymore. You can actually see a difference in the flies as clearly they retain some of the pigment.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "anymore. You can actually see a difference in the flies as clearly they retain some of the pigment."endsnip

Interesting. The current literature indicates that insects (even herbiverous insects like caterpillars) are poor sources of carotenoids other than the gut contents. I wonder if the astaxanthin is getting incorporated or stuck the fruit fly during development... 

Ed


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

bbrock said:


> BTW, I add naturose to ff media and my pumilio have held their even though I rarely dust with naturose anymore. You can actually see a difference in the flies as clearly they retain some of the pigment.


I will say that I also noted a deep red coloration to my flies when I added paprika to the mix. It also seemed to make a difference in the frogs like Brazil Cobalts. Others say it can't be so, but my experience differs from the common knowledge there.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Interesting on the adding to the FF media... was just about to make some today. Guess I'll super enhance my enhanced FF media from ED's Fly Meat with some peprika this time around  

I'm just worried about overdosing with these guys, but want to provide the widest range of caretaniods I can... sounds like brent's powder, peprika, and naturose alone can just be added to vitamin powders as needed, but I guess I'm just worried about using more than one together on a consistant basis, especially if I added the stuff to the FF media as well... I just don't know when I'm over doing it.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Brent, did the cyclop-eeze do anything for the color of you're dog ?hahaha :lol:


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> Brent, did the cyclop-eeze do anything for the color of you're dog ?hahaha :lol:


You should have seen the color of his turds. They were beautiful.

Re: adding paprika to ff mix. I had an office mate who did that with his flies and they also took on the reddish hue. But I also remember his cultures stinking. I don't know if it was the paprika but I would take it easy.

Can't say if the red color of the ff is just stuck to the flies or is incorporated. But when you look at the maggots, they sure look like they are pink through and through.


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