# D. Leuc keeps calling



## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

So I’m wanting to breed my D. Auratus and D. Leuc. So a hybrid, yes. But I will be keeping what I get for myself.
I have 
1x D. Auratus Super Blue
1x D. Leuc 
1x D. Auratus Green & Black
I want to know, can a leuc and auratus breed, and how often? My Auratus breed and I’ve have 3 clutches so far.
My Leuc keeps calling, especially when I play other males calling. Does this mean he wants to mate?


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)




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## dablock (Aug 7, 2007)

LRM, you may want to rethink this post and possibly delete it. That is unless your trolling and wanting to start an endless deluge of negative and insulting posts.

Mixed breeding is looked down on. That's especially true on a forum such as dendroboard. You may want to ask such a questions on facebook instead. You won't receive any helpful answers to your inquiry here. You've been warned


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

dablock said:


> LRM, you may want to rethink this post and possibly delete it. That is unless your trolling and wanting to start an endless deluge of negative and insulting posts.
> 
> Mixed breeding is looked down on. That's especially true on a forum such as dendroboard. You may want to ask such a questions on facebook instead. You won't receive any helpful answers to your inquiry here. You've been warned


Can I ask what is the problem with mixed breeding? I know about creating an animal which isn’t pure then putting it into the pet trade, but that’s not what I want to do. Is there other points?

and yes, I will delete this if it turns into people attacking me.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'm sincerely and non-insultingly curious to know how the 'keeping them all for oneself' thing works. I've read of people having that plan before, but never got details. 

Darts live ten or more years, and have to be segregated by sex lest they breed (and in groups that work together given territoriality issues, which honestly no one knows the details of for interspecific hybrids). How many vivs are planned/set up for the three clutches of mutts you have currently in the works? How many more planned for the planned interspecific hybrids? And how many for separating the three frogs you have now to stop them from breeding once you have sufficient morph-cross-mutts and hybrids to care for? 

Sharing the details of how to plan for the frankly overwhelming (to me, anyway) logistical challenges of caring for all these animals for their entire life span would be very valuable to future readers of this thread who have similar intentions.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

This post should be deleted. This is only promoting non ethical animal keeping


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

And if you die they then get given away and released into to hobby.


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

Tijl said:


> This post should be deleted. This is only promoting non ethical animal keeping


And I still wont know why its not ethical until someone tells me.


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

jeffkruse said:


> And if you die they then get given away and released into to hobby.


With them living 10-20ish years I most likley wont be dead, and if for whatever reason I am then many people around me also keep them so they'll be going to them.


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

Unless someone can give me the answer I'm looking for or someone tells me a reason why hybrids are bad then the post will be left here. The problem of them not being a pure line and then them going into the pet trade isn't a problem, the 1-2 frogs will be mine.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

LRM said:


> And I still wont know why its not ethical until someone tells me.


It's unethical for a number of reasons..

In the first place it's very unethical to mix species (that were never ment to be mixed in nature) solely for your entertainment and pleasure. 
There is not a single benefit aside from this.. It's simple common sense.


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

Tijl said:


> It's unethical for a number of reasons..
> 
> In the first place it's very unethical to mix species (that were never ment to be mixed in nature) solely for your entertainment and pleasure.
> There is not a single benefit aside from this.. It's simple common sense.


Is there a single downside from it though? They are perfectly happy, no problems with each other at all.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

LRM said:


> Is there a single downside from it though? They are perfectly happy, no problems with each other at all.


That is pure and only your interpratation of the 'beeing happy'. Frogs are not human.. 

You are just keeping them alive and experimenting with them instead of providing them with the best life for them possible in captivity. You while idea and way of animal keeping is just disgusting if you only want to play God over these animals. 

Again, an ethical way of animal keeping (let alone Breeding) is providing them the best life possible. Not for personal benefit and entertainment.


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

Tijl said:


> That is pure and only your interpratation of the 'beeing happy'. Frogs are not human..
> 
> You are just keeping them alive and experimenting with them instead of providing them with the best life for them possible in captivity. You while idea and way of animal keeping is just disgusting if you only want to play God over these animals.
> 
> Again, an ethical way of animal keeping (let alone Breeding) is providing them the best life possible. Not for personal benefit and entertainment.


Do you own any other animals then dart frogs? If so, what?


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

Tijl said:


> That is pure and only your interpratation of the 'beeing happy'. Frogs are not human..
> 
> You are just keeping them alive and experimenting with them instead of providing them with the best life for them possible in captivity. You while idea and way of animal keeping is just disgusting if you only want to play God over these animals.
> 
> Again, an ethical way of animal keeping (let alone Breeding) is providing them the best life possible. Not for personal benefit and entertainment.


Yes, I can’t tell if they are actually happy but I can tell they are perfectly healthy, not once has there been any aggression, they hop around together, they sleep in the same coconut hide even though there’s 4 different ones. They definitely aren’t enemies.
I asked the question of do you own any other animals other then dart frogs. My point is that most people don’t have the pure wild animal anymore, because it’s the pet trade. Are you against a banana ball python, are you against a tangerine leopard gecko? No, you most likely aren’t.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

LRM said:


> Yes, I can’t tell if they are actually happy but I can tell they are perfectly healthy, not once has there been any aggression, they hop around together, they sleep in the same coconut hide even though there’s 4 different ones. They definitely aren’t enemies.
> I asked the question of do you own any other animals other then dart frogs. My point is that most people don’t have the pure wild animal anymore, because it’s the pet trade. Are you against a banana ball python, are you against a tangerine leopard gecko? No, you most likely aren’t.


To your last point, you can probably do a little searching on here about hybrids and if you do, you will come to the quick realization that most of us on this forum are strictly against it. You will likely find references to the ball python trade as a perfect example of what we _don't_ want the dart frog hobby to become.

You can have all the _intentions_ in the world for your hybrids to never leave your house. Fact of the matter is nothing every rarely goes as planned. That alone is the reason most people are adamantly against hybrids ever being created in the first place.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

LRM said:


> Yes, I can’t tell if they are actually happy but I can tell they are perfectly healthy, not once has there been any aggression, they hop around together, they sleep in the same coconut hide even though there’s 4 different ones. They definitely aren’t enemies.
> I asked the question of do you own any other animals other then dart frogs. My point is that most people don’t have the pure wild animal anymore, because it’s the pet trade. Are you against a banana ball python, are you against a tangerine leopard gecko? No, you most likely aren’t.


Again, you are only keeping them alive. You even risking or exposing them to potential agression said enough for me.
It's clear to you have absolutely no idea of interest in what you are doing since you don't care to know and are not acting on behang of the interest and the well beeing of the animals you keep.

For me it end here since your topic is only made to troll since it is very clear your mind already has been made up a long time aggo about everything you 'wanted to know'.

And yes those are abominations, engineerd/man made creatures represent absolutely everything what's wrong with mankind. 

Animals are living creatures just like us, not an luxury item or experiment. But I guess that's not how you feel about them and you rather play god.


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

it is very clear your mind already has been made up a long time aggo about everything you 'wanted to know'.

[/QUOTE]
How am I just keeping them alive? Aggression will occur with the same type of dart frog.
Haha, my question wasn’t even about keeping hybrids.
Going through your Instagram, I see you have a Sphynx cat... well if you don’t think that animals should be bred to our own liking why do you have one? Literally, a cat with no fur which get multiple health problems just for your own entertainment.

anyways, goodbye.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

You realy need to do more research about mixing species, it's not only agression that could be an issue for the animals you are mixing.. That just proves you have no idea what you are doing and you just keep animals for your entertainment at any cost and risk. There is absolutely nothing that shows in your questions of comments that you CARE about the wellbeing of your animals. 

Exactly, your question was not about keeping hybrids, but ENGENIERING them.. 

Yes , my wife adopted a spyhnx from a shelter 5 years aggo. I personaly do not breed not promote keeping spyhnxes or animals for entertainment. I also don't keep them with any other animal that light be a treath to her unlike you. You are correct, this type of cat should never have existed.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Practical reasons for not interspecies breeding:

One, it is stressful for the frogs. Dart frogs are already territorial and different species only really breed in captivity because people make them do it by keeping them in close quarters. You can end up with sick or hurt frogs by trying it.

Two, it increases the risk of genetic sicknesses. Things you won't realize until froglets are several months old and their forelegs are shrunken or they just die randomly.

Three, the frogs you get will not just be cool morphs because you made pretty frogs have sex. They'll probably be boring or mediocre, or worse, look very similar to actual frog species (and at that point why not just do same species breeding?). You're not going to invent the next banana ball python by breeding two of the most commonly owned dart frog species. You're just going to have a lot of ugly frogs you can't give away.

So it's really not worth your energy or the health of your frogs to cross breed.


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## Jikkermancinni (Oct 28, 2020)

Holy crap. I never quite understood how sour the dart frog community was until now, I'm blown away. While I personally wouldn't want to try hybridizing and wouldn't want to dedicate the space to it all, it is very clear that the OP has planned for this for a good deal of time. He clearly plans to house them safely and calmly as possible, and to be honest I don't see any reason that the resulting hybrids would be some shriveled pieces of jerky as some of you seem to think. Will this work? Nobody knows. Are you willing to halt a new foray, potentially new branch, of the hobby just because you're afraid of miss marketing, or afraid a few frogs may not make it? The hobby hasn't barely developed in the past decade from what I can tell, it's been stagnating and honestly this level of sourness towards new ideas (whether or not they are actually 'new') is quite disheartening to me and I'm sure to other people looking to join the community. You can be against hybrids every second of every day, and you can show all the evidence in the world to support your opinion, but stuffing a sour stick of the nose of anyone who so much as asks about it (not even talking about right now) is not helping your cause. Again, I have no clue if this would work and nobody does. Will it fail? It could, just as much as a new breed of dog may fail. Wil we ever even know? Not until it is done. And do you know what you do when a new breed of dog or cat doesn't work out? You don't make it again. You learn, and try something else. Now while genetic problems could be a very real issue, the OP has made it clear that they intend to keep the frogs to themselves and not to distribute them. And I have full faith that if it were to go horrendously wrong, euthanasia would be done and the experiment stopped.
This kind of sour, crackly attitude is what drives hobbyists away from hobbies like this. DO I think this will work, or even should? I've got no clue. In nature, many species are resulted from hybrids such as this (bird carries tick with frog to new place, hybrids ensue and fill the area). Will the frogs be some genetic monster? Very possibly, but Dendrobates are close enough related that I can't see anything drastic happening at all. If so, then the OP knows not to do it again. They will know they should've listened and you can all have that 'I told you so' moment. But for now, nobody even knows what will happen at all, and a single clutch as the OP states they plan to do will not break the sky here. Most likely, they will live shorter lives and they may have problems. They may look like crap and sound weird, and it may be a fail and OP may have to euthanize them. But does anyone know this? I don't think so.

OP, I believe that Leucs are stimulated to breed after a dry period of a few months. After the dryer period is over, mist the tank a couple times a day until you hear calling. I have never kept leucs and am relatively new to darts in general but a little research goes a long way 
You guys have a nice day and God bless.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

We can hold to a tattered yet sturdy hope that this persons endeavors will be self limiting, by their own lack of a sustained interest.
There seems to be a general tendency with the stubborn hybrid ppl. More energy is spent provoking online than actually learning and getting into the work.

The lack of online kudos and support from more professional platforms actually does expedite the extinguish of their tenuous hobby interest.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Jikkermancinni said:


> Holy crap. I never quite understood how sour the dart frog community was until now, I'm blown away. While I personally wouldn't want to try hybridizing and wouldn't want to dedicate the space to it all, it is very clear that the OP has planned for this for a good deal of time. He clearly plans to house them safely and calmly as possible, and to be honest I don't see any reason that the resulting hybrids would be some shriveled pieces of jerky as some of you seem to think. Will this work? Nobody knows. Are you willing to halt a new foray, potentially new branch, of the hobby just because you're afraid of miss marketing, or afraid a few frogs may not make it? The hobby hasn't barely developed in the past decade from what I can tell, it's been stagnating and honestly this level of sourness towards new ideas (whether or not they are actually 'new') is quite disheartening to me and I'm sure to other people looking to join the community. You can be against hybrids every second of every day, and you can show all the evidence in the world to support your opinion, but stuffing a sour stick of the nose of anyone who so much as asks about it (not even talking about right now) is not helping your cause. Again, I have no clue if this would work and nobody does. Will it fail? It could, just as much as a new breed of dog may fail. Wil we ever even know? Not until it is done. And do you know what you do when a new breed of dog or cat doesn't work out? You don't make it again. You learn, and try something else. Now while genetic problems could be a very real issue, the OP has made it clear that they intend to keep the frogs to themselves and not to distribute them. And I have full faith that if it were to go horrendously wrong, euthanasia would be done and the experiment stopped.
> This kind of sour, crackly attitude is what drives hobbyists away from hobbies like this. DO I think this will work, or even should? I've got no clue. In nature, many species are resulted from hybrids such as this (bird carries tick with frog to new place, hybrids ensue and fill the area). Will the frogs be some genetic monster? Very possibly, but Dendrobates are close enough related that I can't see anything drastic happening at all. If so, then the OP knows not to do it again. They will know they should've listened and you can all have that 'I told you so' moment. But for now, nobody even knows what will happen at all, and a single clutch as the OP states they plan to do will not break the sky here. Most likely, they will live shorter lives and they may have problems. They may look like crap and sound weird, and it may be a fail and OP may have to euthanize them. But does anyone know this? I don't think so.
> 
> OP, I believe that Leucs are stimulated to breed after a dry period of a few months. After the dryer period is over, mist the tank a couple times a day until you hear calling. I have never kept leucs and am relatively new to darts in general but a little research goes a long way
> You guys have a nice day and God bless.



I mean we know this because this is what happens when you try to hybridize frogs. The reason people are upset is because the failures are well documented. You say "nobody has any clue if it will work" but the reason people get so concerned is that they DO know, because it's a well documented bad idea. And honestly the attitude "Who knows anyways? Let's just mess around and see what happens and maybe have to kill a bunch of sick animals or something but hey we learned something! Why be such a sour puss about it?" is a messed up attitude.

"And do you know what you do when a new breed of dog or cat doesn't work out? You don't make it again." Unless they're a pug I guess.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Jikk, when you state about sour, crackly attitude about hybridizing driving people way from the hobby..

Thats not always a bad thing. 

I often find myself wishing to God someone would get interested in stamps or rocks or anything not alive.

At least people who dont like animals dont keep them.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Jikkermancinni said:


> Holy crap. I never quite understood how sour the dart frog community was until now, I'm blown away. While I personally wouldn't want to try hybridizing and wouldn't want to dedicate the space to it all, it is very clear that the OP has planned for this for a good deal of time. He clearly plans to house them safely and calmly as possible, and to be honest I don't see any reason that the resulting hybrids would be some shriveled pieces of jerky as some of you seem to think. Will this work? Nobody knows. Are you willing to halt a new foray, potentially new branch, of the hobby just because you're afraid of miss marketing, or afraid a few frogs may not make it? The hobby hasn't barely developed in the past decade from what I can tell, it's been stagnating and honestly this level of sourness towards new ideas (whether or not they are actually 'new') is quite disheartening to me and I'm sure to other people looking to join the community. You can be against hybrids every second of every day, and you can show all the evidence in the world to support your opinion, but stuffing a sour stick of the nose of anyone who so much as asks about it (not even talking about right now) is not helping your cause. Again, I have no clue if this would work and nobody does. Will it fail? It could, just as much as a new breed of dog may fail. Wil we ever even know? Not until it is done. And do you know what you do when a new breed of dog or cat doesn't work out? You don't make it again. You learn, and try something else. Now while genetic problems could be a very real issue, the OP has made it clear that they intend to keep the frogs to themselves and not to distribute them. And I have full faith that if it were to go horrendously wrong, euthanasia would be done and the experiment stopped.
> This kind of sour, crackly attitude is what drives hobbyists away from hobbies like this. DO I think this will work, or even should? I've got no clue. In nature, many species are resulted from hybrids such as this (bird carries tick with frog to new place, hybrids ensue and fill the area). Will the frogs be some genetic monster? Very possibly, but Dendrobates are close enough related that I can't see anything drastic happening at all. If so, then the OP knows not to do it again. They will know they should've listened and you can all have that 'I told you so' moment. But for now, nobody even knows what will happen at all, and a single clutch as the OP states they plan to do will not break the sky here. Most likely, they will live shorter lives and they may have problems. They may look like crap and sound weird, and it may be a fail and OP may have to euthanize them. But does anyone know this? I don't think so.
> 
> OP, I believe that Leucs are stimulated to breed after a dry period of a few months. After the dryer period is over, mist the tank a couple times a day until you hear calling. I have never kept leucs and am relatively new to darts in general but a little research goes a long way
> You guys have a nice day and God bless.


I don't get how some of you see 'experementing' and risking the wellbeeing of the frogs to be normal? They are living beeings? Any form of keeping/breeding animals priority should always be to take best care for them possible. Keeping mixed species is the first fault made in this process.

If you type into Google hybride Dart frogs, you will find enough hybrids to behold. Leucomelas x auratus has already been bred and distributed..


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

LRM said:


> Unless someone can give me the answer I'm looking for or someone tells me a reason why hybrids are bad then the post will be left here. The problem of them not being a pure line and then them going into the pet trade isn't a problem, the 1-2 frogs will be mine.





LRM said:


> Going through your Instagram, I see you have a Sphynx cat... well if you don’t think that animals should be bred to our own liking why do you have one? *Literally, a cat with no fur which get multiple health problems just for your own entertainment.*
> 
> anyways, goodbye.


I think you answered your own question.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I have always wondered what happened to the failed. ie ugly hybrids and designer snake, leo, and bearded guys. 

Why cant i believe they are all being tended somewhere, for the next 2 or even 3 decades?

There are alot of skeletons in closets. I am really glad, moved even, that froggers are more protective than ive seen other herpetoculture genres be.


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## frogosaurus (Mar 11, 2020)

@Jikkermancinni,

1) What in god's name do you mean by the hobby "developing" or becoming "stagnant"? Experimenting with cross breeding is your idea of progress? This notion that *because we can, we should *is just the same hubris of humanity that destroys so much of our planet and warps our relationship with nature. Another way to put it besides "stagnant" is that perhaps hobbyists have done a pretty good job of figuring out what kind of care works for PDFs, and are sticking to it. Not every hobby needs to become a designer's paradise where rare cross-breeds fetch thousands of dollars. It's a fetishization that turns a living creature into a commodity and a product. It's what I find so distasteful about high end snake and lizard breeders and it would be a shame for that to seep into the PDF community.

2) Dart frog species and morphs work in the opposite way that something like dog breeds do -- dog breeds are almost entirely man-made phenomena; there is no "wild type" _canis familiaris_ because the animal has been thoroughly integrated into human life. That's fine, but we also know that selective dog breeding for traits that humans find "interesting" or "attractive" causes all kinds of genetic issues. The whole point of not inter-mixing species and morphs is to preserve these beautiful animals as they actually exist in the wild. What other hobby can you point to where a particular morph can be traced back to one single island off the coast of South America? The PDF community (insofar as there is such a thing) made a collective decision some time ago that they were more interested in preserving the discrete and unique characteristics of various localities than they were in playing god and crafting the most appealing possible frog to the human eye. Again, I think it was a wise choice, and OP can do what they want, but it's well within the rights of established hobbyists to scorn that kind of decision, especially when OP doesn't exactly come off someone who's thought this whole thing through.


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## Jikkermancinni (Oct 28, 2020)

I see what you all mean, I really do. I understand your concerns about the whole issue. I also never said I would want to do this myself, I was only defending some points. What it seems a lot of you don't get is that not every hybrid is some jerkied, wrinkly bag of health issues. The sphinx cat example is not quite that accurate as they are so heavily bred from the base cat that they are barely even one anymore, and I will say the same for a majority of dog breeds. My folks breed dogs (english setters, so not all that crazy), and I can say that a large amount of dog breeds are quite disfigured and are perpetually suffering from disease and malformations due to our desires.
That's not what's going on here. This isn't being selectively bred for any reason other than curiosity. It would seem that the offspring of this pairing is quite normal looking (and very boring, might I add) and doesn't appear to have any major issues with it. The OP plans to keep them to himself clearly, so I really don't think there should be an issue here.


I myself am not a big proponent of selective breeding. In the reef aquarium hobby, many captive clownfish are quite weak and dysfunctional due to irresponsible breeding efforts, and I really hate to see it. I hate the ball python and bearded dragon breeding scenes as well, as far too many of the breeders involved are incompetent about genetics and end up compounding issues. That doesn't appear to be the case here. The OP is experimenting, whether right or wrong, doesn't seem to be something you can change their mind on right now. If or when it all fails and they make a clutch of monstrous mutants, they will understand.
Forgive my previous offensive stance, I was not intending to hurt anyone. I haven't been having the best day and decided to take it out online, which was quite dumb.


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

BTW, if you have to ask then you don't know enough. You were politely given the reasons not too yet you insist on doing so. If you had 10+ years experience keeping dozens of morphs then you probably wouldn't have to ask your question.


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## Jikkermancinni (Oct 28, 2020)

frogosaurus said:


> @Jikkermancinni,
> 
> 1) What in god's name do you mean by the hobby "developing" or becoming "stagnant"? Experimenting with cross breeding is your idea of progress? This notion that *because we can, we should *is just the same hubris of humanity that destroys so much of our planet and warps our relationship with nature. Another way to put it besides "stagnant" is that perhaps hobbyists have done a pretty good job of figuring out what kind of care works for PDFs, and are sticking to it. Not every hobby needs to become a designer's paradise where rare cross-breeds fetch thousands of dollars. It's a fetishization that turns a living creature into a commodity and a product. It's what I find so distasteful about high end snake and lizard breeders and it would be a shame for that to seep into the PDF community.
> 
> 2) Dart frog species and morphs work in the opposite way that something like dog breeds do -- dog breeds are almost entirely man-made phenomena; there is no "wild type" _canis familiaris_ because the animal has been thoroughly integrated into human life. That's fine, but we also know that selective dog breeding for traits that humans find "interesting" or "attractive" causes all kinds of genetic issues. The whole point of not inter-mixing species and morphs is to preserve these beautiful animals as they actually exist in the wild. What other hobby can you point to where a particular morph can be traced back to one single island off the coast of South America? The PDF community (insofar as there is such a thing) made a collective decision some time ago that they were more interested in preserving the discrete and unique characteristics of various localities than they were in playing god and crafting the most appealing possible frog to the human eye. Again, I think it was a wise choice, and OP can do what they want, but it's well within the rights of established hobbyists to scorn that kind of decision, especially when OP doesn't exactly come off someone who's thought this whole thing through.


That really stung hard. Thank you for the perspective, I hadn't ever thought of it that way. I feel like my comment was a bit of a rant, forgive me for that. I wasn't thinking quite right.
My comments about stagnation were made without much base in the hobby, so I didn't think all that much about it. Another oversight in my case. What I interpreted as stagnation was actually not at all the case. Another novice mistake lol

I've got nothing else to say, really. My views have shifted a bit from that comment and I feel a bit stupid about what I previously stated lol My apologies for commenting without previous knowledge or thought.


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

LRM said:


> With them living 10-20ish years I most likley wont be dead, and if for whatever reason I am then many people around me also keep them so they'll be going to them.


If I die, my wife who enjoys the frogs, most likely won't keep them. She would give them to a local frogger. But if we both die in a car accident then my out of town sister will be stuck finding homes for them. The people who get them wont know they were cross bred and then they are in the hobby with un known consequences. Unless you have some kind of auto renewing kill switch then don't do it.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

While there are many reasons not to hybridize frogs, I can think of a couple that are appropriate in the context of this thread.

First, I think that if someone says that they are hybridizing just for their own collection, even if they have the purest of motives, it is very tough to make sure that the frogs stay only in their collection. When faced with a difficult situation (loss of a job or housing situation making frogs impossible to keep, for instance), it puts tremendous pressure on a keeper to make the right decision. If a frog looks like it might be legit or maybe the frogs are just cool enough looking that a keeper can still get some money for those hybrid frogs. It is a lot to expect of a person to destroy a frog they are fond of rather than getting some money for the frog. They might even end up giving the frogs away, but then they have no control over what happens to them. The truth of the matter is expecting to control the chain of custody of hybrid frogs over their long lives is unrealistic, I think.

Second, and this is the one that speaks most to me, is that hybridization can put greater pressure on wild populations because the only way to make sure you have un-hybridized stock is to get them out of the wild again. These populations are already small enough that taking a relatively small number of individuals can put them in jeopardy. If folks start experimenting with hybridizing (or mixing morphs of any kind), some of those experiments will be successful (at least in terms of the look of the frogs) but some will not. For greater control over the experiments and for the perceived health of the animal (may or may not be true), people will want to start with wild stock that is untainted by previous experimentation. Getting that wild stock is only going to have a detrimental impact on wild populations, in my view.

Third (and this may be a tangent of the second point above), the hobby is small enough that there aren't enough people breeding the dart frog species and morphs that are already in the hobby. Adding a bunch of designer morphs to the hobby will put further pressure on the species and morphs that aren't currently the flavor of the month. Numerous frogs are gone from hobby and will likely never return because of the vagaries of keepers' tastes and the economics of so many frogs being available in the hobby. Hybridization will only increase the pressure on naturally-occurring species and morphs.

So, rather than hybridize frogs yourself, or even worse, try to make our hobby like the snake and lizard hobbies where hybrids have become more prevalent than wild-type animales, why not look for some naturally occurring morphs that are not being bred very much right now and see if you can contribute to bringing them back into popularity? There are so many different colors, patterns, and sizes just from the frogs that are already readily available in the hobby. I can't imagine what you would want to gain from hybridization.

Finally, next time you think maybe the hobby in general or members of the board are wrong or being unfair, I suggest taking some time to research why people feel the way they do. Most of the time, folks have pretty good reasons for taking a particular stand. Before assuming that this is just fascist gate-keeping, try the search bar first and maybe drop some folks a PM about why they feel a certain way about something. And, maybe give them the benefit of the doubt that this particular topic may have come up hundreds of times and there might be a reason for the salty response  

Happy frog keeping!

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Mark (and earlier posters) nailed it there, so I'm not attempting to do anything with this post but make one specific point.



LRM said:


> My point is that most people don’t have the pure wild animal anymore, because it’s the pet trade. Are you against a banana ball python, are you against a tangerine leopard gecko? No, you most likely aren’t.


This is not relevant, since it isn't the same situation. No morph of ball python, nor any morph of leopard gecko, are crosses of phenotypically distinct locale populations or interspecific hybrids. Not one. Both ball python morphs and leopard gecko morphs are propagations of captive genetic mutations. The analogy you imply with crossing dart frog populations/species simply does not hold, and the fact that this confusion exists makes an even stronger case against not making such crosses i.e. they are often made in ignorance of even a basic understanding of genetic mixing. 

There are relevant examples from the larger herpetoculture community (rosy boa locale crossing,_ Lampropeltis _spp. hybrids), but on those examples the responsible keepers (which is to say, the vast majority of keepers) give the same reasoned resistance as is being mounted here.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Hey Jikkerman,

Your vulnerability and willingness to re consider is really cool.

At the risk of sounding romantic, there is an undertone with the captive hybrid making motive that strikes a chord of indifference at best, casual arrogance at worse. The chord struck, not by you but by the occasionally encountered hybrid "fan" or experimenter seems blithe to the majesty of evolution and the bossanova manifests of this great planet.


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## Do_Gon (Aug 18, 2018)

I hope someone takes this fools frogs away from him. And any other experiments he has cooking up too.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I just spontaneously pictured Bruce Lee, smooth creepin in the black catsuit with deli cups instead of a cobra.


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## frogosaurus (Mar 11, 2020)

Jikkermancinni said:


> That really stung hard. Thank you for the perspective, I hadn't ever thought of it that way. I feel like my comment was a bit of a rant, forgive me for that. I wasn't thinking quite right.
> My comments about stagnation were made without much base in the hobby, so I didn't think all that much about it. Another oversight in my case. What I interpreted as stagnation was actually not at all the case. Another novice mistake lol
> 
> I've got nothing else to say, really. My views have shifted a bit from that comment and I feel a bit stupid about what I previously stated lol My apologies for commenting without previous knowledge or thought.


@Jikkermancinni, just want to say thanks for conversing in good faith. Apologies for getting overheated. I appreciate your vibe nonetheless


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## Gastrotheca (Sep 4, 2020)

I think a big argument to be made here (among others), is that even though there are "success" stories (more like not failure stories), there is a huge possibility that something can go wrong. I know that poison dart frogs are much different than ball pythons, but a strong point can be made there. Take, for instance, the spider ball python, which could have possibly started as a curious whim, but quickly changed and brutally altered the genetics of the animal(s).


Jikkermancinni said:


> What it seems a lot of you don't get is that not every hybrid is some jerkied, wrinkly bag of health issues.


Even though you are correct, would you really be willing to take the chance to produce an abomination of an animal? And what would you do if you did? Dispose of it like an object? I just think that an animal can live a much more beneficial, natural, and fulfilling life without being hybridized or treated with bogus husbandry approaches. 

This should ring a bell. Have a good night!

Gastrotheca
--------------------------------
Crested Gecko 0.2.0


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## SpaceMan (Aug 25, 2013)

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but these animals are not toys/collectables/pokemon. They are wild animals with wild populations. Carefully established captive breeding programs allow there to be a safe market for the animals that doesn't impact those wild populations. The pets in the trade then become ambassadors to their species, showing people not only do these animals exist, but that they are fascinating and deserve to be protected in the wild. 

Hybridizing, like others have said, starts to push these animals more into a collectibles category that is subject to the latest fads. That opens the market up to an arguably more usnavory bunch that are less interested in the ethics of how these animals were brought into captive breeding, and generates a demand, that will, I assure you, be met -- because that's how the free market works. 

There's also the issue of potential release into the wild. If some hybrid between two frogs (that would never encounter one another in the wild) turns out to be more "fit", and it somehow gets released into one of the native habitats, it could out compete other frogs for the same resources. In that regard, I think *the Lion Fish is a good example of how a single careless hobbyist can ruin an entire ecosystem*. The Caribbean has been severely ravaged by the animal, all because some aquarium hobbyist released a handful of the species off the coast of Florida, either because he couldn't sell them, or couldn't care for them. 

If you're in the hobby because you want pokemon, then I suggest getting a new hobby.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

So we spent alot of time answering the OPs questions with good examinations of why he shouldnt cross his animals. Chances are he wont be breeding abominations because he wont get that far.

The hybrid talkers are always casual level dabblers but have spent just enough time online to know how to provoke serious keepers, and spend more time on facebook than working with living charges.

Another under the radar "reason" these types broach the crossing question is they are too uninvolved (I'm being polite there - please note how naughty I'm not being, mods ( ; ) to provide separate environments for their animals.

There's never a good reason to cross, and always a crappy reason why anyone wants to do it.


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## LRM (Apr 18, 2020)

Thank you all for the 3 pages of replies. To the people who made good points and explained and those who answered my actual question, thank you very much - you have changed my
views.

To those who just make me feel bad and guilt me in every way possible, it’s not helping anyone. Maybe try a different approach next time.

Im done with this thread, you can all continue it on if you’d like but I’m out.


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