# want to improve frogs' diets...



## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

I want to improve my frogs' diets and increase their variety. I have tincs - citronellas and azureus, g/b auratus, and orange lamasi. I feed springtails, hydei, and melanogasters right now and buy pinheads whenever I go to shows. I am also ordering some termites (wish me luck on no escapees!) 

What kind of isopods would you guys suggest? 

What are some other good bugs for feeding and ease of culturing? and any suggestions on who to buy from?

lastly, suggestions on vitamin powder for dusting? I am almost out of a mix that I was given from the breeder of my first frogs. I hear good stuff about Repashy but don't know which kind to buy?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Repashy Calcium Plus will handle your calcium, vitamin, and mineral needs. It is designed as a one shot supplement. 
Repashy SuperPig can be added for color.
If only culturing two alternative bugs, my choices would be Dwarf White Isopods and Pink Springtails. That said, I strive for variety and would continue to try to get other types after that.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html
Jeremy Huff has been filling some bug orders in my absence.

Edit: Rotating some different brands of supplements may help to shore up any weaknesses in any one brand. My "one shot" comment is to say that Allen designed Calcium Plus to be his "stand alone" supplement.


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

ordered dwarf white isos and flour beetles for culturing today  also ordered a shipment of termites for immediate feeding


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

What Doug said. Also don't forget about bean beetles and wax worms (an especially tasty treat)!

Happy Dietary Supplementing!


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I kind of like the dwarf greys for larger frogs. They're a little bigger than the dwarf whites and more active. Just my 2 cents


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

I've also got o.lamasi that I'd like to feed these buygs too also so I'm trying to stick with small.

do waxworms need to be ordered as a special size? I see them for sale at joshsfrogs.com but is this the right size? Wax worms - Feeder Insects and Supplies | Josh's Frogs

are minimealworms small enough for darts? they are listed as 1/4" on LLLreptile.com and also for sale at joshsfrogs.com Mealworms - Feeder Insects and Supplies | Josh's Frogs

thanks so much for the info guys, keep it coming!


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

kinda of curious, in the wild our frogs obviously dont get dusted flies hahah....has anyone ever figured out if all vits and minerals can be given to a frog via diverse food supply (no dusting?) and correct environment? just curious what makes the natural bugs have everything the frogs need and why cant we recreate that. the clay substrate still has no testing (i know of) to prove theories about calcium absorption. but i am assuming the creation of a perfect food would also have to have the perfect viv to complete the design of it all.


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

I bet our frogs would be fine without supplements if fed a large variety of foods and given the proper type of lighting. I'm still a long ways from that kind of expertise though :/ Right now I feed hydei, melanogasters, and springtails. This week I am receiving flour beetles + dwarf white isos (which I plan on culturing) and termites (which I'm just going to feed out). I also plan on picking up pinhead crickets at shows (but don't feed like getting them shipped). Until I get all this down, and get a better lighting system (I just have 2.0uvb ReptiGlo blubs), I won't be trying a non-dusted diet


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

if the lights are mounted with plane of glass between the light and the frogs, they are not getting uvb levels like you might think. Glass pretty much stops most of the UVB from coming through.


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

2 of my tanks have lights mounted on glass, the other two are mounted over screen (the rest of the lid is glass). I know its not a perfect solution but shouldn't supplement dusting help compensate for this?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

motydesign said:


> kinda of curious, in the wild our frogs obviously dont get dusted flies hahah....has anyone ever figured out if all vits and minerals can be given to a frog via diverse food supply (no dusting?) and correct environment? just curious what makes the natural bugs have everything the frogs need and why cant we recreate that. the clay substrate still has no testing (i know of) to prove theories about calcium absorption. but i am assuming the creation of a perfect food would also have to have the perfect viv to complete the design of it all.


While clay itself hasn't been directly tested, the mechanism has been documented in several different ways.. for example it is known that frogs can uptake calcium across the skin if it is accessiable through a moist medium (see for example (not free access) ScienceDirect - Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology : A role for skin in Ca metabolism of frogs?) or the methods described in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry to treat hypocalcemia via baths/soaks. In addition, the importance of additional dietary calcium is well established in the literature (as an example see the bibliography for the Nutrition Chapter in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery). 

With respect to the diet, we also know that invertbrates that are used as feeders are poor sources of vitamin A, and do not supply vitamin D3 and potentially have excessive amounts of vitamin E in relation to A and D3 (particularly if you feed the inverts)...... This has been discussed several times in different ways before in this forum although I don't remember which threads off hand. 

Ed


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Yes Ed I agree that the clay substrate is a way to increase calcium(I use clay substrates in my vivs now and am converting a few other older ones over to it) I just didn't think anyone proved our clay substrates(recipe) worked? But I guess if the ingredients are the same as the studies then it would carry across. I understand and have read about our feeders over and over again. So I maybe should rephrase my question, if most of the diet is ants and mites in the wild (I've read the Discussion on ant and their digestibility/ protien/ and such) what is giving the frogs in the wild what they need? We seem to know what a frog needs... But what in the wild supplies that to them?


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

the clay substrates you 2 are mentioning... is this LECA/hydroballs or something else? I use these instead of a false bottom...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DendroRachel said:


> the clay substrates you 2 are mentioning... is this LECA/hydroballs or something else? I use these instead of a false bottom...


Something else... this should provide some enlightenment 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

motydesign said:


> So I maybe should rephrase my question, if most of the diet is ants and mites in the wild (I've read the Discussion on ant and their digestibility/ protien/ and such) what is giving the frogs in the wild what they need? We seem to know what a frog needs... But what in the wild supplies that to them?


There are some major differences in how the frog's live and behave in the wild versus what we see in the enclosures. As an example, we know that populations of dendrobatids have different activity periods (see for example (I don't think there is free access) (the link is stil valid) JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie during the day that are often absent from captive enclosures as people try to optimize the conditions that ensure maximal activity... this changes the metabolic needs of the frogs placing a greater demand on the nutrients required by the frogs. Egg production is dependent on availability of fat to provide for yolk production, a lower quality diet is going to reduce the frequency (and potentially clutch size) of egg deposition. As an example we know that wild populations of O. pumilio do not engage or produce reproductive egg clutches while feeding tadpoles (see ingentaconnect Female activity patterns and aggressiveness in the strawberry poi...) 
the fact that this is commonly reported to occur in the enclosures may warrent concern..... 

To be able to evaluate how to meet thier needs based on the wild populations requires an indepth understanding of how we are forcing them to diverge from the wild biology as this is going to significantly change the metabolic requirements... The above comments and citations are a small amount of what I've thought about on that angle...(and well before we get into seasonal changes....) 

Ed


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Oh i see that tends to change it up quite a bit then as wild species dont have the same activity as our CB partners. i was completely unaware of the change in metabolic requirements in our frogs even when cycling them through seasons is attempted. i thought that activity would have been the same... assumptions get the best of me. 

im interested to hear your thoughts on seasons and cycling of them. i was thinking you may have said something here
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/71719-cycling-down-breeding-pumilio.html
but the best answer i read was just google the region and follow it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

motydesign said:


> Oh i see that tends to change it up quite a bit then as wild species dont have the same activity as our CB partners. i was completely unaware of the change in metabolic requirements in our frogs even when cycling them through seasons is attempted. i thought that activity would have been the same... assumptions get the best of me.
> 
> im interested to hear your thoughts on seasons and cycling of them. i was thinking you may have said something here
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/71719-cycling-down-breeding-pumilio.html
> but the best answer i read was just google the region and follow it.


I didn't contribute to that specific thread. Yes, the hobby does all kinds of things which significantly changes the metabolic demands of the frogs (mainly increases them) and we can see the changes in this by how the frogs behave. This is why it is important to have a good understanding of the behaviors of the wild frogs versus the captive ones as this can assist in providing better care. 
Seasonal cycling can be done by looking at the temperatures and rainfall of specific regions and seeing if they can be matched in the enclosure (usually working with our seasons up here). 

Ed


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