# Glad I used a temp tank



## DougP (Feb 9, 2010)

I am soooo glad I used a temp tank for my new frogs. I sent fecals of to Dr. Frye and it ends up that the new additions have some worms that need treated. If I had put them in their permanent home I would be majorly pissed at my self now.

So to all you other newbs like me use a temp tank and get fecals done. It's peace of mind and money well spent.

Doug


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Its good to hear someone did it the right way. Can you imagine having to tear down a freshly built viv because it became contaminated due to improper quarentine and testing?

Michael


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Where do you send the fecals to be tested?


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

JaredJ said:


> Where do you send the fecals to be tested?



I am soooo glad I used a temp tank for my new frogs. I sent fecals of to *Dr. Frye* and it ends up that the new additions have some worms that need treated. If I had put them in their permanent home I would be majorly pissed at my self now.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

What kind of worms? What if you never treated them? Would the frog die?


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## DougP (Feb 9, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Its good to hear someone did it the right way. Can you imagine having to tear down a freshly built viv because it became contaminated due to improper quarentine and testing?
> 
> Michael


That is exactly the reason I did it the right way. I wonder to many people actually have their frogs checked. I ask because I very rarely see in brought up on the board.



JaredJ said:


> Where do you send the fecals to be tested?


Here is a link for ya.

Frye Brothers' Frogs


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Regular testing and quarentine are still highly debated and not used by the bulk of froggers. People seem to think that if they treat their frogs all is well. They never seem to think the viv is now the host of the contamination and its likely the frogs will become infected again. Clean frogs into a clean viv is the only way to go.
You can really claim the frogs your selling are healthy if they are not tested.

Michael


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

I always thought if you bought from a Good breeder you would have no problems. And if something is wrong it must be your tank that is the prob? NO?


JrayJ


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

This is a pretty heavily debated subject. The short answer to your question is no. Many of the larger breeders do not run fecal testing on frogs. I would probably guess that the majority don't in fact. Obviously a worm free frog is healthy, but many feel that a small load of worms is safe and natural for the animals.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

It depends on who you consider a good breeder. Some breeders have too many frogs to test. They would go broke Im sure. Some are only in it for the money and will not spare a buck to test frogs they are trying to make a profit on. Even a great breeder who tests there frogs will usually tell you to test and quarentine the frogs you buy from them. 
These frogs and the vivs are more than valuable enough to spare some cash to test. Do you really want to spend a few hundred bucks on some frogs and a viv and not go the extra mile?

Michael


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Why would you bother to test your frogs when you can just go ahead and treat them? Is it because to treat them you have to poison them?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Why would you treat a frog that does not need it? My only guess to that is the lack of will to spend a few dollars testing or your just lazy. This is how we end up with pirasites that get immune to treatments. Over treating and lack of knowledge. How do you know what to treat for and how much medication to use if you do not test?

Michael


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

If you have your frog's fecals tested it's less than $20 a test. Compared to the $ you put into the frogs or even the viv it's a very small drop in the bucket. I was a vet tech for 5 years and all the fecals run were run by the techs. Anybody can be trained to look at a fecal float under a microscope and microscopes are available at really cheap prices nowadays. A breeder with 'too many frogs to test' can spend less than $200, refer to pictures of cysts and eggs of the parasites, and be able to test ever single frog they have with little effort. I have a microscope so I check my own frogs fecals as often as I see fit. Avaerage will probably be every 6 months since parasites can come in on plants. 
Seriously, there's no excuse that the larger breeders can't run fecals. That's just silly.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Can't create resistant parasites if there aren't any to begin with. Or are some of them okay? Just wondering. I don't medicate frogs that don't appear to be sick.


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

Most parasite ridden animals don't look sick. Once they exhibit visible symptoms to parasites they are pretty far gone. You may see a higher rate of froglet mortality but you normally don't 'see' a frog sick with parasites, you see a dead frog.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

You cant know what frogs are positive if you dont test. As far as immunities go its due to treating and not completely killing the parasite load as you have no clue if the frog is clean after treating it without further testing. Say you treat and stop when you think all is well but the parasites are still there. Or if you do kill the parasite load the viv is still infected and the frog will be reinfected.

Michael


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## DougP (Feb 9, 2010)

I can say that even if I bought a frog that was advertised as parasite free I would still get it tested. I can't say that the breeder was at fault. There are just too many places that a parasite could have come in contact with the frog. His entire collection could have been checked a few months ago and found to be clean. I would buy from him again without hesitation as the service was very good.

I did send the breeder an e-mail. I would be doing the hobby and the animals a disservice if I didn't. 

I also disagree with treating all animals. You should only treat for something if it is really there. 

You would never know that there is a thing wrong with my frogs by looking at them. They are active and eating well. As a matter of fact they are little pigs

Doug


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

Hookworms especially are a b*tch to get rid of. Seriously really hard. I've known dogs that took over a year of treatments to get rid of them. If I got them in a viv I'd toss the whole thing. I'd probably do more than 3 consecutive fecals every 2 weeks too. More like 6 consecutive. They're AWFUL.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Dr. Frye will give you good information as to whether or not they need to be treated and which parasites you have. I just thought I'd share my thoughts. I've never had any unexplained deaths (except how did the frog escape?). I don't treat them because I don't think it's necessary. Does anyone have any experience treating frogs, changing and cleaning temporary containers over and over until you get a clean test? Then after you have a clean fecal test have you had tried it again a year later and still had a parasite free frog?


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

Almost all wild frogs have parasites of some sort. I have a very good binocular microscope, which is better than what most vets have. Flagellates and nematodes are the most common parasites, in my experience. In the wild, flagellates and nematodes are tolerated fairly well because there is little chance of reinfection from the feces. However, in a terrarium, the reinfection rate can be quite high and may lead to problems with growth and may even cause the death of your frog. 

You certainly wouldn't want to mix clean frogs with infected frogs.

Treatment of flagellates is done orally with Metronidazole. Treatment of nematodes is done orally with Panacur. If treatment is carried out in a quarantine tank (e.g. Rubbermaid Shoe Box) before the frogs are transferred to a display tank, the quarantine tank may be easily disinfected, and one treatment of either drug is usually sufficient to eliminate its corresponding parasite. That said, I usually keep the frog in quarantine and feed it until I can do a second fecal, which has almost always been clean. With Dart Frogs, the whole quarantine process usually takes 2 or 3 days.


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Regardless, I would still think a successful breeder of many species of frogs would have a higher rate of keeping the parasites low risk? Im not saying I wouldnt be obliged to spend the extra $ on a frog to have it tested Im just saying if he has a high success rate at breeding I would think the frogs wouldnt be privy to any crazy parasites that would diminish them. Afterall most PDF breeding seems to flourish. Just my thoughts.

JrayJ


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

A proper quarentine, testing and treatment takes a good bit longer than 2-3 days. The treatment end of it with dusting the food with Pancur alone take longer than that.
Average is 4-6 weeks.

Michael


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

JrayJ said:


> Regardless, I would still think a successful breeder of many species of frogs would have a higher rate of keeping the parasites low risk? Im not saying I wouldnt be obliged to spend the extra $ on a frog to have it tested Im just saying if he has a high success rate at breeding I would think the frogs wouldnt be privy to any crazy parasites that would diminish them. Afterall most PDF breeding seems to flourish. Just my thoughts.
> 
> JrayJ


Success rate or not the infected frog may be flourishing in a viv and when moved out, shipped and introduced to a new viv stress can play a role in the frogs health due to the parasites. They can kill over quick from hookworms that they have been dealing with without much notice.

Michael


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> A proper quarentine, testing and treatment takes a good bit longer than 2-3 days. The treatment end of it with dusting the food with Pancur alone take longer than that.
> Average is 4-6 weeks.
> 
> Michael


I don't dust the food - I administer the *correct dosage* orally in a quarantine environment (e.g. Rubbermaid Shoe Box).

TImeline:

Day one - examination of feces (if clean the quarantine is over), otherwise I continue the quarantine with feeding - Dart Frogs usually defecate daily

Day two - examination of feces (if present), otherwise continue feeding

Day three - examination of feces and if clean the quarantine is over (in my experience, this second fecal is almost always clean, in fact, I can't remember a time when it wasn't)

This may not be your experience, but it is mine.


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

Some parasites lay eggs every 2 weeks. If you miss the cycle of eggs you won't see it on either of those 2 fecals on day 2 and 3.


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

MichelleSG said:


> Some parasites lay eggs every 2 weeks. If you miss the cycle of eggs you won't see it on either of those 2 fecals on day 2 and 3.


That's why I carry out the quarantine in a clean container. Panacur is very effective at killing nematodes with one dose. Once the nematode is dead, it will be excreted. By removing the frog from the quarantine container after the first clean fecal, you can be reasonably sure that there are no more nematodes or eggs in the frog. If you want, you can continue the quarantine as long as you like, but in my experience, 2 or 3 days is long enough.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Web Wheeler said:


> I don't dust the food - I administer the *correct dosage* orally in a quarantine environment (e.g. Rubbermaid Shoe Box).
> 
> TImeline:
> 
> ...


A few problems with your routine if you are going to treat for parasites. Parasites are not always shedding and a frog that is not shedding them this week may be shedding them next week. That is why a series of 3 tests over a 6 week period is recommended. I've also personally seen a frog in quarantine that has tested clean on 2 fecals and then the 3rd test positive. A 3 day quarantine is quite frankly probably a waste of time.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

http://www.amazon.com/Poison-Frogs-Biology-Species-Husbandry/dp/3930612623

expensive, but it has a reference guide to parasites under magnification. you can then run your own fecals with a little work.

james


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

jubjub47 said:


> A few problems with your routine if you are going to treat for parasites. Parasites are not always shedding and a frog that is not shedding them this week may be shedding them next week. That is why a series of 3 tests over a 6 week period is recommended. I've also personally seen a frog in quarantine that has tested clean on 2 fecals and then the 3rd test positive. A 3 day quarantine is quite frankly probably a waste of time.


Here are the facts:

1. Panacur is very effective at killing nematodes in one dose

2. A dead nematode is excreted along with any eggs it may harbor

3. Dart frogs usually defecate daily

4. There may be a minuscule possibility that the frog could consume more viable eggs (from egg-laying nematodes) after treatment, but in my experience, that is very unlikely. 

You have to weigh the stress of quarantine vs. the likelihood of reinfection after treatment. If you want to quarantine longer, that's up to you. In my experience, 2 or 3 days in quarantine is long enough.

If you want to change my mind, you'll have to provide some peer reviewed scientific evidence that shows my procedure for Dart Frog quarantine and treatment for flagellates and nematodes is grossly insufficient.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Web Wheeler said:


> Here are the facts:
> 
> 1. Panacur is very effective at killing nematodes in one dose
> 
> ...


I don't really have the time or interest in arguing with you. I do feel it's important to get the information that is recommended by vets out for people to make informed decisions. 

While you may know what you are talking about, you also may not be any smarter at this stuff than I am and take your own wild west approach at medicine based on half correct info you've read online. 

While some of what you state is true, I've personally talked to more than a handful of vets on this subject that disagree with your quarantine procedure and recommend at a minimum 2 clean fecals over a 1 month period. Most recommend 3 clean over a 6 week period.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Unless your well trained to identify the parasites your not doing any good. I know many who have tried and failed to do this. The quality of the microscope means nothing without the proper training. You would be better off leaving it to professionals.
A single Pancur treatment is not going to do anything but stress out your frog if your doing it like many of us used to. Prying open their mouths and dumping it in is just wrong when we now now the dusting procedure works. And treaing and testing the next day is not going to tell you anything. The frog will not drop its entire parasite load in a day or two. 
You should do some research or call up a vet that does test and suggest proper treatments. You may learn something.
Im finished here.

Michael


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

Identifying genus and species of flagellates and nematodes is very difficult, and only a trained person could do that. However, it's fairly easy for a layman to identify a parasite as a flagellate or a nematode, and Metronidazole and Panacur are both the drugs of choice, very safe and effective at treating flagellates and nematodes respectively.

Am I a vet? No. Do I know more than a vet? No. But, I'm fairly sure I've treated more frogs (not just Darts) for flagellates and nematodes than 99% of all practising vets. My success rate is 100% treating flagellates and nematodes, based on repeated fecals done over the years. Maybe I'm just lucky.

To the OP and anyone else reading this thread, I'm sure ALL the experts here would recommend quarantine, and I believe that was the point of this thread. I'm done here as well.


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Unless your well trained to identify the parasites your not doing any good. I know many who have tried and failed to do this. The quality of the microscope means nothing without the proper training. You would be better off leaving it to professionals.
> A single Pancur treatment is not going to do anything but stress out your frog if your doing it like many of us used to. *Prying open their mouths and dumping it in is just wrong when we now now the dusting procedure works.* And treaing and testing the next day is not going to tell you anything. The frog will not drop its entire parasite load in a day or two.
> You should do some research or call up a vet that does test and suggest proper treatments. You may learn something.
> Im finished here.
> ...


I think it's important to get the viewpoint of a vet on the procedure of dusting crickets with Panacur:



> Some of the methods of treating parasites that are described by hobbyists, such as dusting the frog's food with Panacur (fenbendazole), can actually cause more harm than good. Panacur can cause problems with the bone marrow and liver if it is at too high a dose and can cause worms to become resistant at too low a dose. A veterinarian with amphibian experience can prescribe *precise dosages for your frogs that can be given directly by mouth or by drops placed on the skin*.
> 
> Kevin Wright, DVM
> Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital, LLC
> ...


Emphasis in *bold* is mine (W.W.).


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

The occasions that panacur has been observed to be a detrimate in amphibians was on dosages 40x higher than they should have been.

Dr. Wright does not personally recommend panacur as the most efficient treatment in darts. He does prefer orally or soaking due to being able to regulate the dosage, but does admit that this is a detrimate in some species and situations.


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

jubjub47 said:


> The occasions that panacur has been observed to be a detrimate in amphibians was on dosages 40x higher than they should have been.
> 
> Dr. Wright does not personally recommend panacur as the most efficient treatment in darts. He does prefer orally or soaking due to being able to regulate the dosage, but does admit that this is a detrimate in some species and situations.


Just curious, what does Dr. Wright recommend instead of Panacur?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Web Wheeler said:


> Just curious, what does Dr. Wright recommend instead of Panacur?


Ivermectin


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

OK, thanks! I use Ivermectin orally on my larger animals, diluted as a topical spray for snake mites and in solution (added directly to aquarium water) to treat nematodes in my tropical fish. I haven't used Ivermectin on my frogs because of its toxicity.

Do you know how Dr. Wright administers the Ivermectin (e.g. orally, injectable, soak)?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

He dilutes it down and uses it as a soak if I'm remembering properly.


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

Very interesting. Thanks, Tim!


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

jubjub47 said:


> Dr. Wright does not personally recommend panacur as the most efficient treatment in darts. He does prefer orally or soaking due to being able to regulate the dosage, but does admit that this is a detrimate in some species and situations.


I just listened to an audio taped interview with Dr. Wright, and he does, in fact, use Panacur with larger frogs, such as Tincts, which I should have made clear, Tincts are what I have the most experience with. Furthermore, Dr. Wright's recommended quarantine procedure pretty much agrees with what I've been saying here, i.e. short, tailored to the parasite and where the risks of quarantine are weighed against the risks of reinfection.


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## Steve25 (Jan 29, 2010)

I would have to say if you buy from a reputable breeder on this forum you are buying with confidence. I know that breeders have too many frogs to test for fecal's but isn't that the right thing to do? Maybe increasing the price of the frog $15-25 bucks for being tested is more fair than sending frogs with parasites that are harmful.

I found out the hard way and totally regret until people have better quality assurance when sending frogs.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Web Wheeler said:


> I just listened to an audio taped interview with Dr. Wright, and he does, in fact, use Panacur with larger frogs, such as Tincts, which I should have made clear, Tincts are what I have the most experience with. Furthermore, Dr. Wright's recommended quarantine procedure pretty much agrees with what I've been saying here, i.e. short, tailored to the parasite and where the risks of quarantine are weighed against the risks of reinfection.


Yeah, I didn't clarify species at all. I think there is room for some interpretation as to what his actual recommendations are. I just reheard the call today after sitting in on the original call so I have now digested it a bit more. I would rather discuss this over there though as I'm sure others would like to chime in.


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