# Putting together a Custom Paludarium



## GioAntonio (Jan 21, 2014)

Hi all! I am new to the board, but so glad I found such an amazing resource.

I have decided, for a Spring Project, I am putting together a Paludarium for Newts, Frogs, and maybe even a salamander, and who knows what else I decide is compatible. 

I have had Newts before, and currently have a Leopard Gecko (staying housed completely separate btw) but I have always wanted to have more to look at, which is why I have decided a Swamp-Scape of a Paludarium is the perfect choice, reminiscent of a rain forest, bringing a somewhat feral and savage aspect to the picture!

The dimensions of the tank will be 30"L x 12.5"W x 35"H. I am adding a shelf made 15" up from the bottom left corner The shelf dimensions are 15"L x 12.5"W (covering half of the tank front to back). This is where the main dry area will be, as well as plenty of non-aquatic space to rummage in along the backdrop/inserts.
There will also be two locking doors on the upper front panel. 

Here is a blueprint I drew up:









I have started contacting custom aquarium makers. GlassCages turned me down without an explanation, however I have gotten a quote from MiraclesAquariums of $550 - $650, which I am thinking is a fair price?

I am fully committed to this project, however I am completely confused about what all features and amenities I might need, and how to use them, such as:

How do I construct or where to buy a backdrop/insert?
Do I need a false bottom?
What kind of filtration will I need?
Should I have a sump tank?
How to construct a sump tank?
etc.

Any advice is truly much appreciated! I would at least like to get pointed in the right direction.
Thank you all!


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/11865-good-threads-read-beginners.html


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Are newts and leos the only herps you have kept? If so, I would highly recommend that you reconsider using more than one species in the tank. There are many mixing threads you can find if you use the search feature and they are all worth reading.

Good luck

John


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

FroggyKnight said:


> Are newts and leos the only herps you have kept? If so, I would highly recommend that you reconsider using more than one species in the tank. There are many mixing threads you can find if you use the search feature and they are all worth reading.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> John


Would definitely second this. Mixing is a bad idea in something this small. For many reasons.

Caudata Culture Articles - Species Mixing Disasters


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## GioAntonio (Jan 21, 2014)

I understand what you all are saying, but I didnt say I wanted to throw in a Ball Python or something. Merely a few Frogs, and Newts, in which can live very harmoniously together. Maybe one Salamander. 

Also, this is a fairly nice sized tank. Yes, I may not have had a tank of this structure before, but I have cared for many species of animals, reptiles, and Newts. I have had anoles (which also two anoles would not do bad in this tank either, There will be plenty of non-aquatic space, just saying)

I didnt come here for a ton of "its not a good idea" talk. I would truly appreciate some actual advice. Thank you all for your help.


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

well, just because something is not what you want to hear doesn't make it not "real advice". Additionally, even if the animals are "living in harmony", they can still easily spread pathogens to each other. 

As for you actual questions, there are a LOT of good build threads which detail Paludarium construction. I would say that is a good place to start. there are several good ways to do a background including cork bark mosaic, and great stuff expanding foam. concerning a false bottom, you are going to need something for your substrate to sit on to keep it from getting saturated by the water. there are a few ways to do this, and some of the construction threads should help greatly.

-Charlie Q


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## GioAntonio (Jan 21, 2014)

Thank you Charlie!

What I meant, is that if I have the money and time, and knowing it can be done, I don't see why I shouldn't do a multi-species setup. Also, even though I am new to frogs, why not give them a larger tank. I feel the more space they will have, the happier their lives should be. 

Any species I choose I will also make sure that they will have separate niches, and will have their own space. Newts in water (mostly), Frogs on wall and backdrop.

So I think I am completely confused on what a false-bottom even is. If I have the shelf put in where the dry substrate will be, it wont get saturated from the water underneath the shelf. Or is a false-bottom for the bottom of the tank?


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

so, you want that shelf beneath your substrate to allow water to drain into the bottom of the tank. if you don't, the substrate will hold moisture and could rot out your plants. so if you make the shelf out of egg crate covered with weed block, you should be good. you are going to want to add a couple structural supports to that shelf though. supporting it from the bottom instead of the sides will greatly reduce the chances of a catastrophic failure. a few of vertical tubes to support the load should to the job.

a lot of people try mixed species tanks. a lot of people have problems. the ones who are successful are usually very experienced. I have no experience with mixed tanks, so I am not going to argue about weather you should or shouldn't. But don't disrespect people who advise you against it. there have been plenty of people who have killed animals doing what you are trying to do.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

GioAntonio said:


> I understand what you all are saying, but I didnt say I wanted to throw in a Ball Python or something. Merely a few Frogs, and Newts, in which can live very harmoniously together. Maybe one Salamander.
> 
> Also, this is a fairly nice sized tank. Yes, I may not have had a tank of this structure before, but I have cared for many species of animals, reptiles, and Newts. I have had anoles (which also two anoles would not do bad in this tank either, There will be plenty of non-aquatic space, just saying)
> 
> I didnt come here for a ton of "its not a good idea" talk. I would truly appreciate some actual advice. Thank you all for your help.


*(I say all this with the nicest/most friendly tone possible)  <--- See the smiley face? --> *
Ya that is actually a lot harder then it sounds, and if you care about the animals doing it without the requisite experience is irresponsible. You'll find we are willing to be very helpful but we kinda demand that you care enough to keep the animals in a responsible manner. *Advice is no substitute for experience. *

You have a lot of very smart, very experienced people here and the majority consensus is mixing shouldn't be attempted unless you really know what you are doing, and if you don't have a lot of experience it shouldn't be attempted at all. A significant number of people here actually believe that it shouldn't be done period regardless of experience, and both camps have very good and valid reasons for that. You'd be a fool not to trust their knowledge and experience over your own at this point being so new to the hobby.

*Look at it this way. You are new to these animals (compared to us) and new to viv building... So being a relatively new keeper your animals are potentially at more risk then the animals of a seasoned veteran. You're vivariums are less likely to be ideal environments or encounter problems. You're more likely to make mistakes in viv construction and your animal husbandry... Things can and will go wrong. All that is ok because everyone has to start some where, but then by mixing species you're piling more and more risk into the equation. That in the minds of many here is irresponsible. * 

*We get the desire, many of us had it when we got started*, some of us mixed and many learn the hard way that it's kinda risky even when you know what you're doing, and it's really risky when you don't. The truth is it is not as simple as people think. There are so many factors to consider when attempting a mixed tank in a responsible manner, and if you don't have prior experience with those animals you're already not being responsible. Personally I'd say you need at least 6 months to a year keeping any species separately before you ever begin to think about mixing it with another species. I think that its a pretty common sentiment here. 
*
We are eager to help you succeed, but what you're asking for in the minds of many here is to eagerly help you fail*... because mixing very often fails. These animals can't talk and say hey I'm not happy... and even people doing this for a long time can miss, or find it difficult to pick up on signals of stress. Herps/amphibs are often very subtle in letting you know something is wrong and by the time you see a symptom of a problem it is often to late.

*For the record...*
*When I was new I mixed* newts, darts, and lizards... Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Like a lot of people I didn't realize just how complicated the issue was, and basically probably because I was just kinda naturally geared for this hobby, I got lucky most of the time... and *now that I have a lot more experience I realize just how lucky I got.* My failures could have, should have been much worse... *So I've been where you are now, and I can tell you if you care about the animals, that isn't the best path to go down.*

Another thing to consider...
If you think this is a hobby you're serious about, something you'll wanna do for years and want/need help from the community from time to time, or even to just be involved, liked and respected in the community it isn't a good idea to ask stuff, and then ignore what we tell you... People here bend over backwards to help people that they feel genuinely care about the animals and keep them in a responsible manner and interact with the community in a respectful and responsible manner... Don't do that, and well you won't win many friends, and they can really come in handy. 

We just wanna start you off on the right foot and keep you from making the mistakes many of us made. We wanna save you and your animals a lot of hassle and stress... possibly death in the case of the animals at least. Let us help you 

You came for actual advice. Our actual *and best* advice is... Don't. (We just want you to be successful and for your animals to not just survive, but thrive)


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Charlie, your advice is spot on! Your on a roll

The sump and filtration is very dependent on what the inhabitants will be. If your going to be housing a "messy" eater (most newts), then you will likely need filtration besides regular water changes. Sorry, but I can't get into details on HOW MUCH filtration is needed since I haven't built a Paludarium yet

Time to take a page out of Dave's book and use *bold* and color 

*There are many reasons that I encouraged you to read on mixing.* I honestly think this tank is *way to small* (land portion is 30L x 12.5W x 20H) and that it would be a risk to the inhabitants. *The most successful mixed species tanks are often VERY LARGE tanks that are easily two to three times longer than yours and twice as wide.* When building a mixed species tank, there are also a lot more considerations then if the animals occupy similar conditions in nature or if they will eat one another. *Possible issues include exposure to foreign pathogens, stress, food source required, geographic location of the species in consideration and if one will out compete the other.*
*
I do not keep mixed tanks because I do not think I have the experience required, BUT I HAVE KEPT HERPS FOR DECADES!!! IMO** mixing should be done only by the most experienced of keepers who have a very extensive understanding of the species natural habitat and their habits*. 

Please read all that you can find on the subject before you commit to this.

John

EDIT: I'm not trying to be a jerk in anyway. I just have no finesse on a keyboard

Dave how did you type all that? It took me forever to write this!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

FroggyKnight said:


> Charlie, your advice is spot on! Your on a roll
> 
> The sump and filtration is very dependent on what the inhabitants will be. If your going to be housing a "messy" eater (most newts), then you will likely need filtration besides regular water changes. Sorry, but I can't get into details on HOW MUCH filtration is needed since I haven't built a Paludarium yet
> 
> ...


Btw I do that bold/color stuff just because I'm sometimes long winded, and my writing style is hard for some to follow. It is mostly so people can get the main points when they don't wanna read all my crap. I'm not yelling, or trying to be a meany or anything


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

I did it because it looks pretty


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

FroggyKnight said:


> Charlie, your advice is spot on! Your on a roll


Thanks, Boss! 

So with regard to the tank set up, I was just looking, and are you sure you are going to have as much land area as you want? if you put some wood coming out of the water on the right side it might give you some more places to mount plants, and give your frogs more space to explore.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

As far as building the Viv, this viv of mine I think is similar to what you want to do so these pics may help. More viv and construction pics of this viv and others in the 2 flickr galleries below in my signature



















The pond and false bottom share the water in this viv, but everything is sealed up good enough so that frogs and tads can't get under the false bottom. The substrate layer actually starts above the waterline so there is an air pocket between the top of the water and the soil, which is something you want for a healthy viv. Building a shelf is a recipe for an animal to get trapped under it. It is safer to build a sloping shoreline, but that tank of yours only being 12 inches front to back really is not the ideal tank for the kind of build you want to do. 

You'd be better off probably building the pond on one side or corner like this tank...









Or doing a middle pond like this tank...


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## GioAntonio (Jan 21, 2014)

Thank you for all of your help. 

The backdrop that I was planning was going to be largest on the side of the shelf, going all the way up, and then wrapping around to the other side where there will be a waterfall above the open water area. I also want the wrap around part to be a partially enclosed cave (but open all the way through, kindof like a C shape) that goes from the left side, to the waterfall. So that will proved more land area, as well as all of the crevasses and niches going all the way up. I also do plan on using the twig and branches coming out of the water under the waterfall, one to provide balance, as well as provide more land space.

As for the animals. I did not assume to get all of the different species all at once, most likely start with with whatever species is going to be the main event, and then once things are going well with it a few months down the road, possibly then introducing newts or something to the picture. 

Nevertheless, rather than shooting down peoples dreams and telling them that it is a bad idea, and why not to do it. Maybe it would be more beneficial if you focused on why it is extremely difficult, and why IF they are going to try it, to go about it slow, start with one species, and a couple of months down the road if things are still successful with that one species, then maybe try to add another. 

Yes I know it is extremely difficult, yes I know it might not work the first try, thats why it is better to go about these things slow. When you shoot people down right off of the bad, in such a manner, it really can be most detrimental that the subject might just leave this forum, without all of its great resources, without even giving it a shot. Or they might just go and do it right away anyways, because rather than getting the information they were looking for, they are more-less being stoned for having such thoughts.

Ed said it himself, and put it in the beginner forum for this same reason. 

Now well I am very glad that I have gotten some very useful information, and now I might be re-thinking my Viv all together. I did not see why some newts, a salamander, and a frog, could not live harmoinously, and still dont. While I never said it would be easy, I will also admit that frogs are not my main reason for coming up with this idea.

I too liked the aspect of something you can look down into, and see somewhat of a wild nature, and feral atmosphere. While a swamp with some frogs can somewhat give this effect, without adding in some sort of lizard-looking animal (newt, salamander, anole) it really loses its entrire excitement for me. Yes it would still be nice, but would it have the same effect... NO.

I am still debating what to do, either I will stick to my original plan and do things slow and carefully, or I might just end up scratching the whole frog idea together and just do some sort of lizard that will in fact jump around on the shrubbery, but also swim from time to time.

(to be honest, last night after all of the almost rude remarks, I was looking for a way to delete my post all together and never come back, but I was unsuccessful. I do now plan to stick around, and use this as a great resource still, but maybe changing my plans)


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

Another thing to keep in mind when building this tank is to provide several very easy ways for your amphibians to get back up onto the land. i can see a frog drowning pretty easily if he falls under that shelf and can't get back up again. so maybe building a ramp along the back wall would be one easy access spot.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I apologize, but it just seems you are simply looking for someone to agree with you so you can validate your own intentions. You said that rather than bashing your ideas, that people should give reasons to why it is a bad idea. Plenty have been given, including, but not limited to:

-This is a small enclosure for this. Plain and simple. The inhabitants will have difficulty of getting out of each other's line of sight, etc.
-Diseases are easily spread from one animal to another, particularly when working with species that come from different parts of the world. An animal from one part of the world will have no immunity to pathogens carried by something from another part of the world.
-I provided you a link with a multitude of instances where mixing newts with animals results in either injury or failure to thrive.

You also have the issue of climate preferences. Most newts like it cold...most frogs, and certainly anoles, do not. While you may strike a compromise, well, compromising on an animal's needs is not really the point of it all.

Also, take into account the toxicity that many newts possess. I would be wary of this affecting other tank inhabitants.

If you decide to go the route of anoles, you must also take into consideration that they should be provided with a basking lamp and exposure to UVB radiation.

I'm not just trying to shoot you down for no reason, nor do I think anyone was particularly rude to you. I've done mixed tanks. I still do. But there are guidelines to be followed, and there are just too many reasons why this one is a bad idea.


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## GioAntonio (Jan 21, 2014)

Charlie - The ramp is a good idea, I am actually not going to be putting in a glass shelf anymore, as I was not previously understanding what a false bottom was, now that I know that, I will more likely put in a false bottom on the left side and have it high on the left side as to replace the shelf. Also the ramp in the back is a great idea, thank you!

Draven - I am not looking for someone to merely agree with me, I am looking for advice, which yes, I have gotten lots of great advice already. What I was refering to was the tone in which some of these messages come across. It seems when reading that they do come off with a negative context. Which I realize many of you here are against mixing completely, so then you come with a biased reply with a negative tone. That is what I meant by not being helpful. 

Although Charlie did give me his opinion on the matter in the beginning, he has still given me a lot of advice on what I would need if I were to do this. As well as suggestions, and helpful reasoning to why this isn't the best of ideas. He was not saying that I should abandon the idea completely, but to merely rethink selected species or do things very carefully.

You see, no-one here knows me as a person, and so therefore knows nothing about my character, drive, or willingness to succeed; or my actual experience as a pet-owner. SO it would seem more beneficial to everyone that you as being a sceptic to the idea, should ask more questions first, before shooting down a dream from the get-go.

We have all established this can be done, although some still very against it, it is possible. So without knowing me, how can you be so positive that I will fail? *THAT IS WHAT I MEAN BY NOT TRULY BEING HELPFUL, AND BIASED FROM THE START*

Yes my first idea might have not been the greatest, nor might the next one be the finished plan, that is what I am here for, Help and Advice.

So to rest all assured. I have not decided on inhabitants of the tank. I have merely came up with a blueprint of the tank, as well as found someone to make it. Next will come the filtration and set-up planning, as well as tank mates. Also as I mentioned above, I do not plan on setting up my tank, then rushing to go out and buy frogs, newts, fish, and lizards and just HOPE that they will be compatible. I will be putting much thought into this, and will add inhabitants one at a time, always making sure current inhabitants are happy before adding new ones.

So now to my inhabitant changes. Since everyone here has shown a lot of concern about my first idea, with mainly Newts, a frog or two, and an anole or two, I am really unsure of which direction I really want to go now.

What I was so drawn to upon my original idea, as I have also stated above, is the ability to peek into a rain forest, almost prehistoric atmosphere. So species reminiscent to lizards are my most main concern I am thinking. That is why I thought maybe Newts or even a salamander would be a great fit, as they can also swim. Upon researching paludariums further I found that there are some actual Lizard species, that have worked in similar paludariums, such as Anoles. 

So as some of you have said, it is best to stick with one species. If I were to only do Anoles, I would be worried that the water area would more or less be a waist of space. Yes the Anoles might bathe from time to time, but they definitely do not need the equivalent of a 20G tanks worth of water. My ultimate goal would be to have my tank filled with species of animals that will equally make use of the dry land areas, as well as the water area. There is not 1 species of lizard-like animals (that I know of at least) that will swim just as much as they will forage. 

That is specifcally what led me to wanting to try different species, so I can have something foraging the dry land and running around, yet still having a prehistoric feel (such as anoles do) as well as have something swimming in the water below.
Now with all of this being said, do you all honestly think that finding a species to swim and forage is impossible, or are you willing to admit that maybe this could be pulled off if done right?

(sorry if that last part comes off negative, but I still think this can be done)


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## GioAntonio (Jan 21, 2014)

Also - DedroDave, I do thank you for your advice as well, as well as the terrarium pictures and ideas. Just don't be so biased please! As you said, you have done mixed tanks before too. Not only veterans can learn to be successful at doing this. It comes across as if you are saying I am not smart enough to pull it off.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

This tank will be about 55 gallons. Keep in mind introducing new pets slowly could be your first mistake. If you put some frogs in first for example they will probably establish territories. Later as time passes you slowly introduce another animal. It may be invading a territory no matter where it goes. There won't be any interaction between the animals that will be beneficial to the animal. So keep in mind if you care for animals that nothing good can come of mixing them. Best case scenario is that nothing bad happens.
Please don't be the person that is willing to sacrifice animals so they have something nice to look at.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Maybe you could mix species with less similar demands than frogs and lizards? I think vampire crabs and anoles would give an "ancestral" feel, and from what I've understood they tend to go well together. Or course the wellbeing of the animals must come first, but I think you shouldn't give up on your plans right away.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

GioAntonio said:


> Thank you for all of your help.
> 
> The backdrop that I was planning was going to be largest on the side of the shelf, going all the way up, and then wrapping around to the other side where there will be a waterfall above the open water area. I also want the wrap around part to be a partially enclosed cave (but open all the way through, kindof like a C shape) that goes from the left side, to the waterfall. So that will proved more land area, as well as all of the crevasses and niches going all the way up. I also do plan on using the twig and branches coming out of the water under the waterfall, one to provide balance, as well as provide more land space.


I'm having trouble visualizing what you wanna do. Can you provide a drawing or find a picture of another vivarium that is similar? I'm not getting your explanation.



GioAntonio said:


> As for the animals. I did not assume to get all of the different species all at once, most likely start with with whatever species is going to be the main event, and then once things are going well with it a few months down the road, possibly then introducing newts or something to the picture.
> 
> Nevertheless, rather than shooting down peoples dreams and telling them that it is a bad idea, and why not to do it. Maybe it would be more beneficial if you focused on why it is extremely difficult, and why IF they are going to try it, to go about it slow, start with one species, and a couple of months down the road if things are still successful with that one species, then maybe try to add another.
> 
> ...


*You have to understand many of us have already had this conversation with new people dozens of times.* It's a fairly regular thing for someone to show up here and wanna do a mixed tank with minimum experience and they ask for our advice and then get angry when it isn't what they wanna hear. *Try to imagine how frustrating that is from our perspective* when we realize just how risky what they wanna do is and they don't, and they won't even bother to read all the threads about mixing we've already done.

As someone kinda new to all this your animals are at more risk then they might otherwise be with someone more experienced, and now from our perspective your asking us to help you put them at more risk. *I have to ask... What is your justification for being so willing to risk the health of these animals? Now ask yourself this... "Am I being selfish?"*. You have a responsibility to any animal you keep to do right by it, even if that means not mixing it with others you'd like to keep. *We expect better of people then just throwing a bunch of different animals in tank and hoping for the best.*

*We've discussed many of the specifics regarding the dangers of mixing time and time again with others over the years. We've touched on a few of them with you here and we've directed you to the nooby threads with more info, and suggested you do a search for even more info.* *The information you want is here, we've already done a lot of the work for you over the years*. It is asking a little much of us to go through the whole ordeal from start to finish every time some new person wants to mix when we've already done this time and time again and that info is there for you to read.

Many people don't like the idea of helping someone who won't take good sound advice, nor help them put their animals at more risk.* I am one of those people though that will give people the best information I can and let them make their own decision, because the reality is many people will ignore our good advice/warnings and do it anyways.* IMO the more responsible thing is to at least give them a shot at succeeding without killing a bunch of animals before they figure it out. *But in order to help you I don't think it is to much to ask of you to read the nooby sticky threads, and do a search on mixing species and read many of those threads.*

Plus...

In order to help you be successful if you do ignore all this very good advice people have given you, *we really need to know the exact species your going to want to mix.* Many newts have different habits/and requirements then other newts, same for frogs. Are you wanting to keep darts or tree frogs? What kind? Also some of the risks depend on what your mixing and where those animals are from. Are you mixing African tree frogs with S. American dart frogs? Which species of each? etc..etc... 

*I can't work off of... "I want newts and frogs"... That's a universe of possibilities* where the variables/factors and considerations will vary widely depending on the species involved. At the very least you need to pin down what you want to keep or at least throw out some suggestions for us to review. 

Usually the best things to mix would be like a nocturnal gecko and a diurnal frog that have similar requirements but inhabit different niches and are active at different times. *We can't give you specific advice without more to go on.*


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## GioAntonio (Jan 21, 2014)

gturmindright said:


> Please don't be the person that is willing to sacrifice animals so they have something nice to look at.


Ok, so what you are trying to say, is that you nor anyone else here is guilty of sacrificing animals so you have something nice to look at?

I get what you are saying, as I am an avid animal lover and animal rights supporter myself. But none of us are free from guilt with it comes to sacrificing animals to please us. I have two dogs, and a leopard gecko, and all are spoiled beyond belief, but none are in their "natural" habitats, so that is technically a sacrifice that we as humans have bestowed upon them. 

And to second that, almost all of us have partly made the decision to add pets to their family as a hobby, or something we would like to do in our free time. This is also, to our own benefit, not the animals. 

I do not know why I need to repeat myself, but in my last post I did say, that, I have not chosen exactly what I am going to choose as inhabitants. It is merely a custom tank with limitless possibilities at this point.

I may, or may not, decide to choose only one species. However I did make it very clear that whatever I choose, I will do it with utmost caution to the inhabitants, and not force anything on them that is a hinder to their daily, and nightly lives.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

GioAntonio said:


> Ok, so what you are trying to say, is that you nor anyone else here is guilty of sacrificing animals so you have something nice to look at?
> 
> I get what you are saying, as I am an avid animal lover and animal rights supporter myself. But none of us are free from guilt with it comes to sacrificing animals to please us. I have two dogs, and a leopard gecko, and all are spoiled beyond belief, but none are in their "natural" habitats, so that is technically a sacrifice that we as humans have bestowed upon them.
> 
> ...


Given that most here do keep some kinda animal captive, it would be pretty hypocritical for us to be against that, but *there is a difference between keeping an animal captive and giving it a level of care/standard of living that allows it to live far beyond what it would in the wild VS throwing it in a tank with another animal and 1 or both those animals being dead in a few months or a year because you mixed them. * 

*Also most of us don't consider doing it with minimal experience to be "utmost caution"... We call that being risky.*

*And like I said in my previous post, it is very difficult to give you good advice on how to mix something with something else if we don't specifically know what species you wanna mix.* You need to at least throw out a species of newt, and frog, or whatever and then we can review how likely those are to do ok together, or what the challenges may be or if that particicular mix is just terrible.

Also if you're going to do it with the "utmost caution" and be responsible it is better to design the enclosure specifically for the species to be mixed, not build an enclosure then throw in what you think might work. This especially applies to people with a mimimum of vivarium building experience. Some doing this for 10 years is much more likely to be able to construct something that is suitable for a variety of species. This is an example of things people fail to understand at first, and even if we tell you them that gives you the knowledge but not the understanding that you'll get over time with experience... which will save you from having to sacrifice so many animals for your enjoyment.* One of the basic guidelines many believe in when it comes to mixing species, is that if you have to ask then you're not ready to do it, because the best way to get the knowledge and experience to do it responsibly is keeping a lot of different species seperately over the years and doing your research and learning from the forums and other people for years, before you become ready to attempt it on your own in a responsible manner.*

*Mixing on your own from the start will get you experience and knowledge, but at the cost of a lot more dead animals. We don't encourage that kinda thinking as acceptable.*


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

GioAntonio said:


> Also - DedroDave, I do thank you for your advice as well, as well as the terrarium pictures and ideas. Just don't be so biased please! As you said, you have done mixed tanks before too. Not only veterans can learn to be successful at doing this. It comes across as if you are saying I am not smart enough to pull it off.


I think it's important that those on here who have done mixed tanks, and say to not do them, are probably the ones to listen to. They've "been there, done that" and have the most hands-on experience to pass forward on the matter.

I do think the idea for vampire crabs with anoles may have some merit. Perhaps those with more experience with them could chime in on that. They should utilize completely different parts of the enclosure, not compete for food resources, should not see each other as competition, and should not try to prey on one another. I have done some similar successful mixes, such as a colony of Daemon diadema with one of my chondros.

I think you will have a problem trying to find a lizard that will swim, climb, and remain in a planted 3' tank. Most lizards that will utilize all of these get much too large (basilisks, various Asian agamids, etc.).


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

GioAntonio said:


> Also - DedroDave, I do thank you for your advice as well, as well as the terrarium pictures and ideas. Just don't be so biased please! As you said, you have done mixed tanks before too. Not only veterans can learn to be successful at doing this. It comes across as if you are saying I am not smart enough to pull it off.


I'm not being biased, and it isn't question of how smart you are (and I apologize if I gave that impression)... What I'm in fact saying is that basically no one is smart enough and/or capable enough to do this without putting their animals at substantial risk without first getting a lot of experience just keeping animals and building vivs in general. Risk is really what it boils down to. We know it can't be helped that animals will always be at a little more risk with new people because that is just the nature of the game, but we have to draw a line somewhere. Most here can't respect someone who is willing to put their animals at that much more risk right from the start, when they are already at more risk in general because that person lacks experience and/or the knowledge that more experienced people here have. 

It doesn't matter if you like me get lucky and manage to pull it off most of the time. You've still put your animals at way more risk then they needed to be. We can't condone that. It isn't quite as extreme but it is like if we condoned you playing russian roulette with the family dog. We can't encourage people to think it is ok to put an animal at that much extra risk, when we understand just how much more risk there is and they don't... or worse if they do. If you really understand how much more risk they are at when lacking experience and then are still willing to do it, that is bad. 

I'd kept some lizards before, done some aquariums, and did a lot of research and was just an animal person in general. I thought I knew what I was doing, and for the most part I did, but I found out after getting years more of experience that I had drastically underestimated how much extra risk I had subjected those animals to, and just how lucky I got that I didn't get more of them killed. 

It is a lesson that you don't have to learn the hard way, and that is what we are trying to prevent because when you are not very experienced you will most likely kill significantly more animals doing it, then not doing it.

You're right not only veterans can learn to do this, but it is more responsible to attempt it as veterans. No amount of advice, or research makes up for experience, and if you get that experience from doing mixed tanks when you are new, it will be at the cost of more animal's deaths then if you had waited till you were a veteran. We can't condone you taking on that much extra risk and possibly killing animals. That would be irresponsible of us.

Another thing I touched on awhile back but is worth mentioning again, is that if you want to be a part of this hobby community, liked and respected by the members of this community and generally get a long with them, asking for advice then ignoring that advice and doing something that most of us feel is just to risky for a person to do without a lot of experience, isn't going to win you any friends (I'm not trying to be mean, that is just the facts). We have a low tolerance for people who put animals at more risk then we feel is acceptable. You may think that risk is acceptable, but if you want to be a part of the community and have people eager to help you in the future it is best to respect that community. 

When you've earned our respect and shown us that you really do care about the animals (by taking our very good advice), and shown us that you seem to know what you are doing, then sometimes you can get away with pushing the envelope a little bit, or going against the grain. But just starting out it is best not to rock the boat... and this is coming from someone who loves rocking the boat... just look at all my vivarium special FX threads  

And again, without specific species to talk about it is really hard to give you good advice. Do more research, get some ideas about the exact species you'd like to mix, and if you absolutely can't be persuaded not to do it, I will try to help you do it to minimize risk to those animals... But I won't be happy that you've forced me into the lessor of 2 evils (IMO, but in some other people's opinion the greater evil is helping you, so keep that in mind).


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## Alexmenke92 (Nov 19, 2013)

Not to sway the topic at all, but what about native species. Lets say..a mixed tank of Carolina anoles and a green or squirrel tree frog? I have had something of the sort and the "appeared" to do fine. I'm definitely trusting everyone's advice here and I don't have that tank anymore, but if they were all native species that encounter each other naturally and are not in danger of predation on either side, could that work at all? I understand that competition for food would be an issue and maybe even disease transmission, but I would think at least the food could be controlled (in my case I made sure everyone ate). What if this guy did that? 


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Alexmenke92 said:


> Not to sway the topic at all, but what about native species. Lets say..a mixed tank of Carolina anoles and a green or squirrel tree frog? I have had something of the sort and the "appeared" to do fine. I'm definitely trusting everyone's advice here and I don't have that tank anymore, but if they were all native species that encounter each other naturally and are not in danger of predation on either side, could that work at all? I understand that competition for food would be an issue and maybe even disease transmission, but I would think at least the food could be controlled (in my case I made sure everyone ate). What if this guy did that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


It could... There are lots of combos that can work. The issue is mainly that especially when you're a beginner your animals are already at more risk then they would be if you were a veteran. So if you pile more risk onto them for no good reason other then you just want a mixed tank, it is hard for many here to respect that. 

Anyways I'll give the best advice I can if he decides to do it against our good advice, but he'll have to come up with some species to talk about first.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I agree. I've done mixes like that before, without an issue. Still have to make sure UVB lighting and a basking light is available for the anoles. Food competition can be reduced as the frogs can primarily feed at night, and the anoles during the day.


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

What about mixing anoles and fish? would there be a big problem with that? I feel like i've seen a lot of fish/frog mixed tanks.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Charlie Q said:


> What about mixing anoles and fish? would there be a big problem with that? I feel like i've seen a lot of fish/frog mixed tanks.


It's probably less risky then many other mixes. Though potentially the water that comes with the fish could harbor bacteria, viruses, and/or fungi that might some how affect the reptile... but it is less likely that the fish would directly infect the reptile with a fish disease vs a frog or another reptile infecting the anole, because the more closely related things are the more likely they are to spread diseases to each other... But there are instances where distantly related species can still make each other sick. 

For instance here are some things that fish can transmit to humans...
Fish Diseases Transmitted to Humans
(SALMONELLA is one that the fish could probably infect the reptile with, and then the reptile could infect you with. Although to be fair the reptile alone might have it and could potentially infect you or the fish)

There are different ideas about what can be mixed and why it can be mixed. Like for instance one might propose mixing auratus and pumilio because they probably cross each others paths in nature fairly regularly, can't breed with each other but may have evolved to pick up on each other cues and get along or at least know when they aren't getting along so they know when to retreat. (of course forcing them into the same glass box may make it hard for either to retreat)

But then there is the opposing idea that they compete for similar food and niches in the environment at times and pumilio are known to be fairly aggressive at times also. But auratus are bigger and could probably kick their butt if sufficiently provoked. So which is best? Hard to say, it's complicated and risky either way, which is why many people come down on the side of... "it's best to just not risk it at all".


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## Veneer (Nov 13, 2012)

Anole/fish disease transmission (either direction) should be a fairly negligible concern IMO. I'd still make it a practice to quarantine new stock, but with fish/fish and lizard/lizard pathogens at the forefront of my concerns.


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