# Any insight please



## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

I'm not sure but are these bones browning or if my frog? I noticed these lumps starting too grow but I thought it was maybe the process in the arch in the back. My other frogs are already adults. Well the other day I started to notice that it was being worse so I've been keeping an eye on it and today this is what I seen. I am horrified and don't know what to think or do. I did try to reach out to the vet today but have not heard back from them. This has haunted me all day and I was not sure about posting it but feel like I need to know what to do next. Please help.https://photos.app.goo.gl/8U9uGGLx6meC5Tok9


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

Smez said:


> I'm not sure but are these bones browning or if my frog? I noticed these lumps starting too grow but I thought it was maybe the process in the arch in the back. My other frogs are already adults. Well the other day I started to notice that it was being worse so I've been keeping an eye on it and today this is what I seen. I am horrified and don't know what to think or do. I did try to reach out to the vet today but have not heard back from them. This has haunted me all day and I was not sure about posting it but feel like I need to know what to do next. Please help.https://photos.app.goo.gl/8U9uGGLx6meC5Tok9


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

That does not look good. Do you have any pictures of the whole frog? 

It looks from that picture that the frogs skin has broken and part of its skeleton is exposed.


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)




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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

This is what he looked like 2 weeks ago.


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)




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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)




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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

This I just took now.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I may be imagining things, but the legs may look a little off. What is your feeding and supplementation routine, exactly and in detail?


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

I feed fruitflys and dust with calcium. I have use a few different types of calcium. I sometimes give super small crickets also. I use fluval lighting also. All the froglet died within a week or so of getting them. He is about a year old now.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Smez said:


> I feed fruitflys and dust with calcium. I have use a few different types of calcium. I sometimes give super small crickets also. I use fluval lighting also. All the froglet died within a week or so of getting them. He is about a year old now.


What @Socratic Monologue is looking for is the exact brand and product of supplement you are using and how often. 

If I had to guess, it's a calcium or other nutrient deficiency. The legs and skeletal system don't look normal to me.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Smez said:


> All the froglet died within a week or so of getting them.


There's more backstory here that's relevant, apparently. Would you describe the lead up to the current situation, please? In detail. Without all the info, no one can tell what's going on here.

Which calcium products, exactly (brand and product)? How often do you feed? How do you dust the feeders?

Fluval is a one brand among many. Maybe the lighting is relevant, but what kind of lighting is it (LED, UVB, etc)?


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

Repti cal is what I'm currently using with d3. I feed them every other day. I usually dust about once a week. I will put the calcium in a cup then will put in the ff. I shack them up and put them in the enclosure. I noticed one day that one of his hips were raised up and he was not going up on his high branches. I thought that maybe he hurt himself somehow. And was keeping an eye on it. Then both started to do that. Being new to dart frogs and the other dart frogs that I have are fully grown. I thought it was the arch on the frogs back and that it would grow into them. But it seemed to just keep staying that way and not growing into them. I started to become concerned when we found him upside in his water dish a few times. I thought that he might be dying. Then these things started coming out of his back yesterday and them seem to be coming out quickly. The thought of him dying is part of life I guess but he didn't seem to be suffering but now with these things coming out I can only imagine that it has to be suffering. My 3 other frogs seem to be fine. I feed them the same way use the same lights and fogger and mister.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Repti-cal isn't an appropriate supplement for dart frogs (some might argue that it's barely appropriate for any reptile, but that's a different story). 

Fruit flies need to be dusted at EVERY feeding with a high quality supplement. Most of us use "Repashy calcium plus" as our all in one supplement. 

It sounds to me like it's a calcium and other nutrient deficiency causing the issue. Your other frogs are probably just not showing the effects yet.


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

I will get the rapashy cal asap. Any other suggestions


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## Emmabeth (Sep 19, 2021)

How old is your calcium dust... look at the date on the pot and also how long has it been open, these things lose quality over time.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Smez said:


> I will get the rapashy cal asap. Any other suggestions


Pictures of the entire setup would be helpful. 

Along with the information on the froglets that died so we can see if there's something going on there as well.


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

I just got a new one. I was told to keep in fridge to keep longer. Which had been there several months. I left it put so I bought a new one.


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Pictures of the entire setup would be helpful.
> 
> Along with the information on the froglets that died so we can see if there's something going on there as well.


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

Smez said:


> View attachment 302203


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> It sounds to me like it's a calcium and other nutrient deficiency causing the issue. Your other frogs are probably just not showing the effects yet.


Yes, almost certainly a calcium issue, likely a deficiency possibly complicated by lack of other vitamins (A for sure). Animals that are still growing into adulthood show symptoms more quickly since they are using much more calcium (etc) than non-breeding adult frogs.

Yes, dusting every single prey item is a necessity. Using only 'Repashy Calcium Plus' is recommended. Yes, keeping the supplement in the fridge is a good idea.

You may want to get some more input on this specific recommendation before proceeding, but if that were my frog I'd euthanize it ASAP. It isn't going to recover to the point where it will have any quality of life. A couple drops of Orajel (human oral anesthetic) on the belly is an effective and humane method of euthanasia according to the AVMA. Again, think this through fully before acting.


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## Smez (Sep 22, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, almost certainly a calcium issue, likely a deficiency possibly complicated by lack of other vitamins (A for sure). Animals that are still growing into adulthood show symptoms more quickly since they are using much more calcium (etc) than non-breeding adult frogs.
> 
> Yes, dusting every single prey item is a necessity. Using only 'Repashy Calcium Plus' is recommended. Yes, keeping the supplement in the fridge is a good idea.
> 
> You may want to get some more input on this specific recommendation before proceeding, but if that were my frog I'd euthanize it ASAP. It isn't going to recover to the point where it will have any quality of life. A couple drops of Orajel (human oral anesthetic) on the belly is an effective and humane method of euthanasia according to the AVMA. Again, think this through fully before acting.


Thank you for your help. My vet recommended putting him in freezer. Not sure which would be better. Still sad anyway you look at it. I will definitely be looking into all this more. Never wanted to be a bad pet owner. I take great pride in all my animals. Guess I will be doing more homework on them. Thank you again for all your help and support in this trying time.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Smez said:


> My vet recommended putting him in freezer.


This method is currently not recommended by the AVMA. Odd, and a little troubling, that a vet would recommend it.

Link to AVMA guidelines are in this thread:









Is 10% orajel strong enough for euthenising?


I can find a 10% orajel mouth gel for mouth ulcers and denture pain on amazon (shipped from the US), but not 20%. I am not sure if that is strong enough. From Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia I read "Products containing either 7.5% or 20% benzocaine have been shown to be effective in the...




www.dendroboard.com


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## icarus_skies (Aug 10, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Repti-cal isn't an appropriate supplement for dart frogs (some might argue that it's barely appropriate for any reptile, but that's a different story).
> 
> Fruit flies need to be dusted at EVERY feeding with a high quality supplement. Most of us use "Repashy calcium plus" as our all in one supplement.


 Could you expand on this? I was specifically recommended repti-cal as part of a supplement rotation and this is the first I'm hearing of this.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

icarus_skies said:


> Could you expand on this? I was specifically recommended repti-cal as part of a supplement rotation and this is the first I'm hearing of this.


I don't know who recommended repti-cal to you but I don't know a single keeper who uses it. I have repti-cal without D3 to dust my flies with when seeding a new culture, but never for frog supplementation. It has no vitamins outside of D3, and is woefully inadequate for our frogs.



Socratic Monologue said:


> This method is currently not recommended by the AVMA. Odd, and a little troubling, that a vet would recommend it.
> 
> Link to AVMA guidelines are in this thread:
> 
> ...


Yeah we've known freezing animals is a painful way to die. And vets stopped recommending it at least half a decade ago, if not longer. I would absolutely never go to that vet again concerning your frogs. I wouldn't go to them again at all though. It's a veterinarian's job to keep current in their field and be up to date with the latest techniques and guidelines. That's a huge red flag to me.


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## icarus_skies (Aug 10, 2021)

JasonE said:


> I don't know who recommended repti-cal to you but I don't know a single keeper who uses it. I have repti-cal without D3 to dust my flies with when seeding a new culture, but never for frog supplementation. It has no vitamins outside of D3, and is woefully inadequate for our frogs.


Huh. Without naming names, ill just say I was given this recommendation by probably the most well-known e-vendor of frogs and frog supplies on the entire internet. And to be clear, we're talking about Repti calcium from Zoomed, not Rep-Cal, right? Now I've got some reading material for today, thank you for this info.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

icarus_skies said:


> Huh. Without naming names, ill just say I was given this recommendation by probably the most well-known e-vendor of frogs and frog supplies on the entire internet. Now I've got some reading material for today, thank you for this info.


This vendor is notorious for providing what many of us consider to be poor-to-really-bad husbandry advice.


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## icarus_skies (Aug 10, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> This vendor is notorious for providing what many of us consider to be poor-to-really-bad husbandry advice.


Well that's unfortunate. Surprised to see them have such a large presence on this forum, with that in mind.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

icarus_skies said:


> Huh. Without naming names, ill just say I was given this recommendation by probably the most well-known e-vendor of frogs and frog supplies on the entire internet. And to be clear, we're talking about Repti calcium from Zoomed, not Rep-Cal, right? Now I've got some reading material for today, thank you for this info.


Doesn't matter. Neither of them should be used. 

And yeah, don't mention names. That could be considered vendor feedback, which isn't allowed outside of the vendor feedback section.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fishingguy12345 said:


> This vendor is notorious for providing what many of us consider to be poor-to-really-bad husbandry advice.


Oh we're talking about them! Yeah. We all have strong opinions regarding their husbandry practices (and really everything with them). Don't listen to them. They're still recommending husbandry techniques that we've known to be inadequate (and even deadly) for a decade.

We've had plenty of new keepers come on here with sick or dead frogs from following their advice.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

icarus_skies said:


> And to be clear, we're talking about Repti calcium from Zoomed, not Rep-Cal, right? Now I've got some reading material for today, thank you for this info.


The Rep-Cal product is called "Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3" It is not a complete supplement; it only contains calcium and D3. Commercial feeder insects are also deficient in at least Vitamin A. I don't know of any glaring deficiency issues in frogs from other vitamins, or other minerals, but they do exist in other animals and are notoriously hard to diagnose, hence the recommendation of using only and always a quality all-in-one supplement such as Repashy Calcium Plus. 

Zoo Med's identical product is called "Zoo Med Repti-Calcium with D3". It is identical to "Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3"'

Zoo Med also has a product called "Zoo Med Repti Calcium without D3". It is only useful for herbivores that are fed an outstandingly perfect fresh diet and get sufficient (i.e. outdoor) UVB, and even for those animals there are better products.

There is a similarly named product by Zoo Med called "Zoo Med Repti Vite with D3". It is not acceptable for any insectivore, as the inclusion of mostly calcium phosphate does not rectify the inappropriate Ca/P ratio of commercial feeder insects. It does, however, have the appropriate form of Vitamin A (Vitamin A acetate) for insectivores.

The 'rotate supplements' method is a holdover from roughly 30 years ago, when (a) there was little known about the nutritional needs of exotics, and (b) the quality of the products available was irregular, or just low (as in Repti-Vite, which is a legacy product from that era), so people just hedged their bets. Now, there is no reason to do this (unless I'm selling you products that need to be discarded and replaced every six months whether they're used up or not, in which case please hammer on that 'buy' button, thank you).

No cute emoji on that last bit, since it isn't funny, really.


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## icarus_skies (Aug 10, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> The Rep-Cal product is called "Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3" It is not a complete supplement; it only contains calcium and D3. Commercial feeder insects are also deficient in at least Vitamin A. I don't know of any glaring deficiency issues in frogs from other vitamins, or other minerals, but they do exist in other animals and are notoriously hard to diagnose, hence the recommendation of using only and always a quality all-in-one supplement such as Repashy Calcium Plus.
> 
> Zoo Med's identical product is called "Zoo Med Repti-Calcium with D3". It is identical to "Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3"'
> 
> ...


Explanations very much appreciated. Thank you!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This method is currently not recommended by the AVMA. Odd, and a little troubling, that a vet would recommend it.
> 
> Link to AVMA guidelines are in this thread:
> 
> ...


 Actually the current guidelines are that freezing is unacceptable for any amphibian weighing more than 4 grams so I wouldn't be too harsh on the vet particularly if it is a vet who graduated during the 80s or 90s as freezing was accepted during those periods as well. One thing to remember when using chemicals like ethanol or benzocaine as a method of euthanasia is that one of the phases during the period that the drugs take effect is that they can stimulate hyperactivity which if unexpected can be incorrectly interpreted as the animal feeling pain... 



> Rapid freezing—Reptiles and amphibians can be euthanized by rapid freezing when it results in immediate death. Based on rodent models, it is likely that this can be achieved by placing animals < 4 g (0.1 oz) in liquid N2. 95 However, due to a dearth of empirical evidence supporting this method, operators should consider a secondary method to ensure that recovery does not occur. The technique should not be used for species that have adapted freeze tolerance strategies, as this method may not result in instant death.375 Placement of animals ≥ 4 g in liquid N2 or other uses of hypothermia are not acceptable.


from 2020-Euthanasia-Final-1-17-20.pdf (avma.org) 

I think the rotation of the supplements started closer to 20 years ago as opposed to 30... I'm getting old but not that old since 30 years ago people were still grinding up human vitamins to use for supplements. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Ed said:


> Actually the current guidelines are that freezing is unacceptable for any amphibian weighing more than 4 grams so I wouldn't be too harsh on the vet particularly if it is a vet who graduated during the 80s or 90s as freezing was accepted during those periods as well.


The text with emphasis added to clarify in relation to the case at hand:

"Rapid freezing—Reptiles and amphibians can be euthanized by rapid freezing *when it results in immediate death*. Based on rodent models, it is likely that this can be achieved by placing animals < 4 g (0.1 oz) *in liquid N2*. However, due to a dearth of empirical evidence supporting this method, operators should consider a secondary method to ensure that recovery does not occur. The technique should not be used for species that have adapted freeze tolerance strategies, as this method may not result in instant death. Placement of animals ≥ 4 g in liquid N2 *or other uses of hypothermia are not acceptable*. "

Freezing -- i.e. putting an animal in a household freezer -- is not listed as an acceptable method for an animal of any mass. 

Edit to add: that quoted paragraph occurs unchanged from the 2013 edition of the guidelines as well ( https://uac.arizona.edu/sites/default/files/avma_2013_guidelines_for_the_euthanasia_of_animals_0.pdf ). I cannot find a copy of the previous guidelines online, but a summary of the 2009 guidelines lists both hypothermia and rapid freezing unacceptable for amphibians ( https://www.emich.edu/research/compliance/animal-care/euthanasia_chart_2011.pdf ).

Also, having received one's DVM decades ago does not give a vet a free pass on failing to keep up with current practices, especially when there are simple and effective currently approved methods available.


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## photoj (Apr 1, 2020)

Also to comment on the Rep-Cal line in relationship to dart frogs or amphibians. Rep-Cal (Herptivite) provides vitamin A in beta carotene form. Amphibians are not able to convert beta carotene into vitamin A as reptiles and mammals can. Thus you need a multi that mainly has vitamin A in Retinol form. Thus the preference for dart frog hobbyists to use Repashy (Calcium plus) over Rep-cal.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

photoj said:


> Also to comment on the Rep-Cal line in relationship to dart frogs or amphibians. Rep-Cal (Herptivite) provides vitamin A in beta carotene form. Amphibians are not able to convert beta carotene into vitamin A as reptiles and mammals can. Thus you need a multi that mainly has vitamin A in Retinol form. Thus the preference for dart frog hobbyists to use Repashy (Calcium plus) over Rep-cal.


A good point. 

Some clarification though: not all reptiles can convert carotenoids (e.g. (PDF) Vitamin A in Reptiles). 

There is some evidence that some amphibian species can (e.g. In vitro metabolism of carotenoids, ÃŸ carotene and lutein into retinoids in amphibians) but for many species we simply don't know (www.rzlab.pitt.edu/Publications/Dugas-et-al-2013.pdf). (There are likely better citations than these; the ones I've linked are just to prove the broad point.)

Repashy Calcium Plus has both preformed A and carotenoids, so all bases are covered.


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