# What kind of pumillo do you think this is?



## Jadenkisses

I saw these frogs being sold as Blue Jeans:



















I asked the seller what bloodline they were from, and they said "They are from Darrin in Seattle- Ribbit Productions/ Driftwood Frogs."
I then said that they looked like man creeks to me, and they said: "These are not the greatest of pics, I cropped them to get a bit closer, the flash is on, if I flash off the turn a orange hue over the entire pic. These make the legs look black. They are not black. I need to take pics of their undersides.
I guarantee they are Blue Jeans"

And then posted these pictures:


















What do you guys think? Are these real pumillo blue jeans, or are they something else? 

Here is the ad if you want to see it: SOLD!! $25 DART FROGS - New Pictures- New Frogs! - BLOWOUT! - FaunaClassifieds


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## ChrisK

I would bet money they're man creeks - ask him how he's willing to guarantee that they're blue jeans and that you want confirmation from Darren


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## stemcellular

They are Mancreeks or Almirante.


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## JimO

I know that photos don't always show true colors, but they could be Chiriqui Grande - red or Man Creeks. 

Here is a good morph guide for pumilios: Oophaga pumilio Morphguide


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## frogparty

Ask Darren. I dont think they are BJ's


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## Jadenkisses

ChrisK said:


> I would bet money they're man creeks - ask him how he's willing to guarantee that they're blue jeans and that you want confirmation from Darren


I'd bet too. I don't think her camera made them look that way, I think that's the way they are. But when I went back to the site a little while later to ask more questions about them, suddenly everthing was sold and she was saying thank you to the buyer. Apparently someone bought them, and they were priced $100 each.


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## heatfreakk3

I would say they are Man Creeks.


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## Jadenkisses

How much do man creek froglets usually go for?
They were advertised as "2-6 weeks morphed - Ready to go!"

And, should I contact the buyer and let him know about my suspicions about the "blue jeans" he just bought? I don't want to get in his buisness, but I think he should know.
Let me know what you guys think I should do.


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## Tony

I don't know if Darren has BJs or not, but I am positive he would not sell them to a pet shop for under $100 if he does. That shop seems to have a decent rep so I am sure it is an honest mistake, but there is no way those are the real deal.

Edit: I just sent Darren a message to let him know about this.


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## edwardsatc

Jadenkisses said:


> And, should I contact the buyer and let him know about my suspicions about the "blue jeans" he just bought? I don't want to get in his buisness, but I think he should know.


The buyer she refers to in her post is a member of this forum.


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## jfehr232

Jadenkisses said:


> How much do man creek froglets usually go for?
> They were advertised as "2-6 weeks morphed - Ready to go!"
> 
> And, should I contact the buyer and let him know about my suspicions about the "blue jeans" he just bought? I don't want to get in his buisness, but I think he should know.
> Let me know what you guys think I should do.


Does not look like BJ's at all! Also watch out buying pums 2-6 weeks of age....I would not take the risk.

watch what you are dealing with on those sites.


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## thedude

darren doesnt have blue jeans as far as i know. and he wouldnt sell them to anyone like that if he did. they look like mancreeks, which he does have.

i hate sellers that use false advertisement. no point in saying they are blue jeans to get more money if they are gonna sell them for $100 anyway.


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## jeffdart

Those look just like man creek to me. I have some about that age that look very similar.


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## frogface

Darren has confirmed that they are Man Creeks on that faunaclassified thread.


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## Jadenkisses

Darren came on the ad and posted that they are 100% man creeks if they came from him, as she says, because he doesn't work with blue jeans.


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## sports_doc

Thats such crap that the seller 'guaranteed' they were BJ!

Anyway, buyer beware.

I wouldnt personally ship a pumilio younger then 4 mo old. But to each his own.


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## yours

The thread is gone....either the person knew they were in the wrong, or the moderator took care of it! Hopefully the buyer wasn't duped.....




Alex


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## Jadenkisses

Ok, listen to the PM I got from the seller after I contacted the person I thought may have bought these, and asked on the thread for her to come and explain why she says their blue jeans from Darren, yet Darren says if they're from him, they are man creeks:

"I dont appreciate you harassing my customers. They do not appreciate it either. I request respectfully that you cease immediately."

hmmm...
I was just trying to look out for a fellow frogger. 
At least he thanked me, and I'm sure he'll agree I did not harrass him in anyway.


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## thedude

Jadenkisses said:


> Ok, listen to the PM I got from the seller after I contacted the person I thought may have bought these, and asked on the thread for her to come and explain why she says their blue jeans from Darren, yet Darren says if they're from him, they are man creeks:
> 
> "I dont appreciate you harassing my customers. They do not appreciate it either. I request respectfully that you cease immediately."
> 
> hmmm...
> I was just trying to look out for a fellow frogger.
> At least he thanked me, and I'm sure he'll agree I did not harrass him in anyway.


you just cant help some people. atleast anyone who has blue jeans, wouldnt be dumb enough to mix a frog that looked like that with them.


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## MD_Frogger

Is this seller on this board? If so could someone please pm me their screen name so I know not to purchase any animals from them? There is no room for that kind of gross misrepresentation in this hobby.


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## Darren Meyer

I dislike my name being involved in a negative way . I have worked hard to have good name in the hobby . Which is exactly why I do not hide behind a false screen name . 
Wendy has been a good costomer as well as her mother . It looks like she has had much luck with the frogs she's recieved . 
I don't know why in the world she has continued to say they are blue jeans . 

Happy frogging ,
Drama and all !
Darren


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## Jadenkisses

And she is continuing to say they are real blue jeans.
Now, she says the got the parents of the frogs in question from a guy in Flordia, and that they are imports.


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## yours

Bad news bears! I hope the buyer isn't following through with this transaction...


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## Jadenkisses

Oh, supposedly someone has already bought them, and supposedly is happy with them and says they're real.


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## Dendro Dave

I've heard nothing but good things about Darren, and he is a long time member so I have little doubt the frogs were represented accurately. It seems either this person is confused and refuses to admit the mistake or they are intentionally misrepresenting the animals. I also find it unlikely that the potential buyer was upset about getting a pm warning them these frogs weren't bJ's ...I'd be grateful if someone took the time to stop me from making a mistake. I wouldn't mind being PM'd the screen name either to make sure I don't buy from them if they are a member here.


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## Dendro Dave

Jadenkisses said:


> Oh, supposedly someone has already bought them, and supposedly is happy with them and says they're real.


If they are so convinced I'd like to see them post about it on the board with pics and get others take on the frogs. I doubt that will be happening though.


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## frogface

Just read the posted 'texts' by the seller. They seem totally made up to me.


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## Dendro Dave

frogface said:


> Just read the posted 'texts' by the seller. They seem totally made up to me.


Where can these be found?


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## frogface

Page 22 of the BoI thread for Wendy Childs

(dont know if it's ok to post link)


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## edwing206

I can vouch for Darren (as can dozens of other folks). He is a stand up guy and a great asset to the hobby. Don't let this false advertisement discredit him in any way. I know this didn't need to be said but just in case there are any doubters out there.
-Luis


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## jeffr

edwing206 said:


> I can vouch for Darren (as can dozens of other folks). He is a stand up guy and a great asset to the hobby. Don't let this false advertisement discredit him in any way. I know this didn't need to be said but just in case there are any doubters out there.
> -Luis



Darren posted in the ad stating they are mancreeks and he never worked with Blue Jeans


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## Philsuma

Thats a huge fauna Classified bi*ch thread starting out about whining about having to pay admission to a retail pet shop....blah blah.

then a bunch of other stuff about selling the shop, reptiles then a dog pile of a couple other people claiming stuff and then the misrepresented pumilio comes in after all that.

Not saying any/all of it isn't true.......haven't had the stamina to read it all yet.

I'm sure Darren's rep is fine and it should be but until there is an "aggrieved" customer....all we have is a misrepresented advertisment.

Pretty low on the badness scale so far......


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## frogface

Yea I kinda agree about that whole thread, Phil. Until the buyer decides to breed these 'BJs' with actual 'BJs', being none the wiser. And starts selling his Man Creek/BJs as BJs.


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## Dendro Dave

I added my 2 cents to the boi thread...and read through most of it. It seems to me the seller likely and intentionally misrepresented the frogs, Its possible that it was accidental but I didn't get that feeling from reading the testimony. If they did knowingly misrepresent animals, I think that ranks pretty high on the "badness scale" IMO...but I don't think it can be proved beyond all doubt. IMO also the buyer needs to cop to the fact that it is extremely unlikely they got actual bJ's and not breed or sell them as such. As I said in my boi reply I'm glad they are happy but if they go on to further misrepresent these frogs and/or breed sell them or the offspring they will be doing themselves and the entire hobby a disservice. IMO.


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## jeffr

I doubt she knew. If it was intentional she would have been selling Mancreeks for BJ prices


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## Jadenkisses

Yes - the beginning of that thread was dumb, I just posted it there because it was the most recent thread - and was not going to start a new one on her because I have not actually done any buisness with her.

Im not sure what she's thinking - but she still guarantees they are blue jeans - and says she produces tons of frogs (so she knows what shes talking about), but yet she said she had only reciently figured out that you have to provide bromeliads and leave the egg/tads with the parents insted of taking them out, in order to breed and raise pumillos sucessfully.


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## ChrisK

Jadenkisses said:


> (so she knows what shes talking about), but yet she said she had only reciently figured out that you have to provide bromeliads and leave the egg/tads with the parents insted of taking them out, in order to breed and raise pumillos sucessfully.


Yeah that's a pretty contradictory statement


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## Dendro Dave

ChrisK said:


> Yeah that's a pretty contradictory statement


She seemed to make a lot of contradictory statements in that thread. She seems to be trying to save face, while arguing there is no problem because the customer is happy. If the customer is to inexperienced to know what they have or just doesn't care and wants to be able to say..."Hey look everyone, I got bj's...I'm so cool!"...that in itself is a problem IMO. Also that she seems to be trying to save face, while offering little in the way of evidence to back up her claims and seemingly changes parts of her story, in my mind suggest that if this wasn't intentional she is at least still unethical to a degree I would not be comfortable dealing with her. 

I'd really like to hear the customer speak out on why they are so happy with this deal and believe they have Bj's when practically everyone who's seen the frogs thinks thats pretty danged unlikely.


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## yours

Maybe it's because it's so late at night(EARLY in the morning) but I really got a very EERIE feeling....in hearing/reading-about the possible "two faced buyer" from the situation.....if it was this "legion" person, that responded to Jaden in one fashion....and then threw her under the bus with Wendy on the other hand............................very freaky---Sharon Stone fashion!!!(heh)....erm, Stephen King rather 

I'm also somewhat alarmingly frightened/anxious/nervous about more of these entering the hobby in the future, mis-labeled as they are(from both Wendy and this 'buyer' person)!!!

Thank god for site specific, meticulous people like Rich Frye! *breathe-in**breathe-out!* And thank you Jaden for, in my opinion, caring enough to pursue the truth for the integrity of the animals involved.....I appreciate your efforts, as I'm sure the rest of us do!!!(I know you really didn't receive a lot of that on that other site, but thought I'd letcha know)

This whole thing really stinks something bad......and the 'eerie-ness' is not going away! *knows October and Halloween are JUST around the corner!!*


Alex


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## Jadenkisses

Thanks so much Alex, I really needed to hear that! 
After a few people said "This is ridiculous" or "I think Jaden is being overzealous" or "this should have been posted in the frog forum where it would actually be useful to someone", I was getting a little discouraged.
But I'm glad there are people who do appreciate me posting that. 
That's why I did it - for those people.
Hopefully now that Rich has posted, they will _finally_ listen to us!


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## Philsuma

You did the right thing....no problem there, but a bit of perspective is in order.

This appeared to be a one time misrepresented pumilio advert that had a buyer that realy didn't care - if that was really the buyer and not ficticiously concocted by Wendy to back out of the problem she got caught up in. Either way, there was never a buyer saying they got hosed by getting a $100.00 frog after paying $300.00.

Like Rich told me once.....it's better to pick and choose your battles.

Keep watching Kingsnake, and you will see some importers / jobbers / flippers post almirante pums as BJ on a REGULAR basis. We shut one of those down a few months ago - kingsnake got a bunch of emails from us and after a few days that ad was gone.

Then you can see a big CA reptile company that knows little to nothing of darts selling them 10 species at a time with incorrect labeling, pictures, ads to include some suspected hybrids. When questioned as to all this ignorance - their reply was "we don't know too much....we just advertise to buy up froglets and stock from hobbyists. We don't keep or breed anything ourselves.

just a couple examples you will encounter if you continue to patrol kingsnake ect.

I do thank you - for your efforts and looking out for the hobby.


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## earthfrog

Jadenkisses said:


> How much do man creek froglets usually go for?
> They were advertised as "2-6 weeks morphed - Ready to go!"
> 
> And, should I contact the buyer and let him know about my suspicions about the "blue jeans" he just bought? I don't want to get in his buisness, but I think he should know.
> Let me know what you guys think I should do.


They go for much more than that. Ask BcsTX since she breeds them. 
I too am 90% sure they are mancreeks---I own some. 

The bigger concern is the age---2-6 weeks. I am also concerned about the pale area on one frog's head. I do not think I would buy from the seller--"2-6" weeks is a very wide age range for that young of an age---I would want the frogs to be at least two months if I could, to be sure they would have more chance of survival. 

I would let him know if you think he was ripped off. That would be based on his preference/dialogue with the buyer, though. You would need to find that out, probably, to be able to tell if he felt ripped off or if he is fine with the deal.


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## yours

I'd be wary to get anything that isn't a generic white's tree frog on any of those other sites(Fauna, Kingsnake, etc)....certainly not darts with anyone not trusted---I'd rather stick to herp shows and people off dendroboard. Otherwise, it's just not worth it. At all.

It's good to see RICH bringing some knowledge and dart authority over in that thread, and the 'criminal seller'...of course....gone in smoke, no where to be seen!

You're welcome Jaden 


Alex


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