# Lighting in Vivarium??



## konstantin92 (Nov 11, 2013)

I have had my tank set up for a year and my frogs (three dendrobates azureus) have been living happily in it for 9 months. The frogs seem to be happy, healthy and doing well. They have grown from froglets into good sized adults! As this is my first tank and first frogs I am pretty happy thus far. 

My only complaint/concern is in the growth of my plants. They are in an large and tall Extoterra (36” x 18” x 24”) with a compact top (three ExoTerra Full Spectrum Daylight bulbs - 13 Watts). I am wondering if the plants are not getting enough light which is inhibiting the plant growth? I have attached a picture from last February (sorry for the poor quality). Some growth has occurred since this picture, but not much, and the undergrowth and moss have struggled.

Any and all advice is welcome!! I can get a recent picture later today if that would be useful.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

I like the setup, looks good. And I'm happy to hear your frogs are doing well.

I'm surprised not much has grown since February... Especially some of that ivy and pepperomia. I would at least expect some spindly leggy growth from those guys.

I've seen less light in vivs, but yeah, I personally would have more lighting for something that size. I think Jungle Dawns are simple for plug and play in an exo terra top. Even if they don't use significantly more watts than the cfl's, all the light is directed downward and LED's produce more lumens per watt.


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## DartSolo (Sep 7, 2014)

I don't think the problem is with too little lighting, ive had a 12 watt fluorescent tube light over a 45 gallon breeder for over 4 months now and there has been tremendous growth in everything, Its pretty over grown and i started it with clippings from plants in my other setups.


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

It looks like you have an ok amount of light and adding more light could help. Have you noticed any dulling of color in the plants between when you added them and now. This is usually more prevalent in plants that have more reddish leaves and can sometimes indicate if you need more light. How do you maintain humidity in the tank? hand misting, fogger... Do you have good airflow? Airflow can be very beneficial for many types of plants especially most epiphytic bromeliads and can be achieved by adding a computer fan. What does your substrate and drainage layer consist of? There are lots of little things that can help but very often it is lighting that can make a huge difference. Also, moss can be tricky sometimes and it would help to know what type you are using. More pictures would also help.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

I second the computer fan Idea, I also mist my tanks by hand but have foggers set to run 4 times a day for 15 minutes each time, than right after the foggers cut out the fans run for 15 minutes too, it helps cool the tanks through evaporation and introduces fresh air, is that sheet moss I see on the driftwood? in my experience the wood or anything for that matter has to be extremely wet in order for sheet moss to take hold and begin to spread


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Kevin_T82 (Aug 10, 2009)

When was the last time the lights were replaced?


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## Cole (Dec 9, 2013)

I experimented with different lighting options for about a year. I ended up with 1X 13watt Jungle dawn LED and 1X 26watt CFL in my all of my 18x18x24 ExoTerra vivs. I get pretty decent plant growth with this setup. I think the combination LED/CFL is the way to go. The CFL also raises the temp in the viv 4-5 degrees which helps create a nice day/night cycle. 

You don't need to spend a great deal of money on CFL bulbs either a $3.00 bulb that is 6000K will do the trick.


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

Remember, just because it looks like enough light to you doesn't mean it's enough of the light that plants need. My new less are signifficantly more dim than my t5ho and cfls but in a week I've got young plants that were stagnant for months under three 1450 lumen/each cfls that have a new inch of growth. That plant grow out tank was BRIGHT but not in the right wavelengths that plants need for photosynthesis.


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

Sorry, meant leds not less. Stupid autocorrcting new phone...


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

That's a good point, and also a good reminder of why one shouldn't rely on lumens to know your plants will be happy. Because PAR and lumens are effectively measuring different parts of the visible light spectrum, you can build a light that is high PAR but not very visually bright...or a light that is extremely visually bright but has PAR so low your plant growth is compromised.

Ideally we want both though...plus a gorgeous color rendition! It's an equation with no one perfect answer, but that's part of what keeps this such an interesting hobby.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Skip the fluorescents and go with LEDs. I personally use Jungle Dawn LEDs, but there are a lot of other options available. Remember, you're not providing light, you're replacing the sun


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## konstantin92 (Nov 11, 2013)

Great info guys. I think I will plan to replace the lights (they are about 9 months old now) with something different. Any specific recommendations?

I would love to install a mister and fan system. The extra air flow can only be beneficial as long as I can keep the humidity up. Right now I have plexiglass over the mesh top to help keep the humidity up and have been playing with giving as much of a opening as possible for air flow without compromising the humidity. I'm sure that this component could be playing into the lack of growth as well.

Any recommendations on the best way to install a fan/mister with this setup? I did not put a drain in the bottom of the vivarium so I do have to be careful with how much water gets into my substrate/drainage layer (I have a few inches of a lightweight drainage layer, then screen separator, 2" substrate layer then leaf litter).

The moss is Thuidium delicatulum. It is surviving but not thriving and I wouldn't be surprised if that is due to not enough moisture. I didn't have time to take new pics last night, but will try to do so tonight.


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

I also like the jungle dawn LEDS and you can put these in your compact top. I would go with 3X 13 watt bulbs. Here is the link 
New England Herpetoculture LLC - Bulbs (Vivarium)
They are definitely more expensive then CFLs but remember you won't need to replace them. 

From your picture it does look like your tank is a little bit on the dry side which is fine for the bromeliads but not as good for the moss. It is sometimes hard to keep bromeliads from rotting in vivs that are really humid and wet. Obviously there is a huge range of care requirements for different bromeliads. For example I have found that most cryptanthus because they are terrestrial can be grown on the substrate with very wet conditions without getting rot where is a lot of neorgelias will rot unless they are given good airflow and allowed to dry between waterings. Basically what I am saying is that you may want to find which plant species you have, find the conditions that they prefer and change there placement based on varying conditions in the tank maybe taking some out of the substrate and mounting on wood or background and vice versa. 

In my vivs I have had the most success by alternating a wet/humid period with a dry period. This keeps both wet loving plants happy while also preventing rot in bromeliads and orchids. You can do this by having an opening in your plexiglass top where you put a computer fan pushing air in. I like to have timers which turn on the misting system or fogger and soak the tank then these turn off and the fan turns on and dries out the tank. I personally like using an ultrasonic humidifier as a fogger because most of my tanks don't have drains and with a mister you have to play around with how much time you leave them on for so you don't flood the tank. The cloud and rain forests in central america that I have been to tend to be very wet and foggy in the morning then by midday the sun dries everything out. So my thought process is to replicate this by having wet and dry cycles. If you want you can also have a small internal fan that circulates air within the tank but this is a bit overkill so I would choose one or the other. 

Also in my experience Thuidium delicatulum does do much better with a lot of water. By keeping it dry it may have even gone slightly dormant. If you give the moss a lot of water soaking it everyday you should eventually start to notice some new green growth.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

It is very reasonably to think that you do not have enough light. The typical light setup for a 18x18x24 exo terra is 2 ~13 watt screw in LED lights that have roughly1000 lumens each. I keep 3 such lights on that tank. If you only have 3 CFLs on this then you have much less light. This tank is like 2 of those 18x18x24 tanks next to each other. So by those estimates you will need 4-6 such LEDs over your current setup or you will need CFLs rated at much higher lumens if you are to going to try to use your current hood. 

Also CFLs lose intensity over time. I have seen estimates as high as 50% by 2000 hours which would be about 6 months. And I personally have witnessed a very wide variety of quality of CFLs and light loss over time. 

The best thing for you to do is find some way to measure light at different places in the vivarium this is how you can start to understand what is going on and adjust things. You can get a Lux meter application for a smart phone for free and use that. Or you can drop a little more money on a PAR meter if you are serious. 

If you want something low priced I would just grab this light that will have a decent amount of light. It will replace your current hood which you can sell to recoup some of the costs and this will be cheaper than buying many replacement screw in LEDs for such a large vivarium.


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## konstantin92 (Nov 11, 2013)

Okay. Definitely upgrading the lights. I will look into a fogging system/more ventilation. It's not usually that dry. That pic was with the doors open for a photo and it was also due for a spritz. Here is a picture from today (doors closed). The pictures were taken 9 months apart.

I apologize for the rotated picture... I'm on a mobile device and am unsure how to correct the orientation on it.


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## konstantin92 (Nov 11, 2013)

This is better!


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