# Dwarf Azureus



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

A couple months ago I obtained what looks to be a probable pair of tiny full grown 2-3 year old azureus. Although they are full grown they are roughly half the size of a "normal" sized azureus. Would these guys be considered dwarfs since they are so much smaller? I tried to search the topic but all I can find is info about dwarf cobalts.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Adult size in anurans is significantly impacted by size at metamorphosis as well as additional nutritional inputs... it is possible to have adults that are smaller than normal due to a number of factors.. 

Ed


----------



## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

It would be more probable that what you have is "dwarfed" rather than "dwarf" azureus. It's possible to make almost anything a dwarf thru nutritional and habitat manipulating. Sounds to me like somebody unloaded a couple of defectibe frogs on you. I personally would not breed out of them if you even got good eggs. Enjoy them otherwise for what they are - a beautiful frog.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> Adult size in anurans is significantly impacted by size at metamorphosis as well as additional nutritional inputs... it is possible to have adults that are smaller than normal due to a number of factors..
> 
> Ed


Ed would this effect any offspring they may produce (it would be interesting to know if they are viable at all). I doubt environmental factors would effect subsequent generations however I am sure there are additional husbandry aspects that may have factored in to this situation.
It also could be a case of a pair that produced MANY offspring, the last clutches of a huge breeding cycle could have detrimental effects on the last few clutches.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> Ed would this effect any offspring they may produce (it would be interesting to know if they are viable at all). I doubt environmental factors would effect subsequent generations however I am sure there are additional husbandry aspects that may have factored in to this situation.
> It also could be a case of a pair that produced MANY offspring, the last clutches of a huge breeding cycle could have detrimental effects on the last few clutches.


Hi Mark,

I don't think anyone has looked at epigenetic effects in anurans much less dendrobatids... but based on other animals, it shouldn't affect the size of the offspring. People should keep in mind that famine cycles occur in the wild as well and the resulting frogs that mature during that cycle are going to be smaller than normal yet are capable of normal reproduction. 
Anurans grow throughout thier entire lifespan and if there aren't other significant metabolic demands, they should slowly reach a more normal size (but keep in mind that this is going to be a slow process as once they are sexually mature, they divert metabolic processes from growth to reproduction). 

Ed


----------



## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

I have seen this 'dwarf' characteristic in frogs who were overcrowded during growth or placed in too small of tanks to begin with.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hexentanz said:


> I have seen this 'dwarf' characteristic in frogs who were overcrowded during growth or placed in too small of tanks to begin with.


If they were overcrowded this could limit food intake due to competition which would result in the stunting of the growth process... I have real doubts as to the small cage theory as this hasn't held true to any herps to date (the classic example is with burmese pythons.. if you keep it in a small cage and feed it heavy, it doesn't change the growth pattern at all..) 

Ed


----------



## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> I have real doubts as to the small cage theory as this hasn't held true to any herps to date (the classic example is with burmese pythons.. if you keep it in a small cage and feed it heavy, it doesn't change the growth pattern at all..)
> 
> Ed


I saw at a friends some Tinctorius which were raised in really large vivaria (1 pair per vivarium), the frogs were normal sized like in the wild compared to those grown in tanks smaller in size. I also observed this at a few local breeders. When asked about the size of the larger frogs, everyone always said the frogs were raised in really large tanks.

I do agree with you, but it is weird however.


----------



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

This all some really great useful information guys. Some of the older posts had similar info but it was sparse and scattered...nice to have it alll compiled and discussed here in this thread.

So basically what I gather is...it happens, they can indeed breed, and the offspring would be of "normal" size?


----------



## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

My pair of banded leucs produced some dwarfs and most of them passed away. I have a pair left that are 4-5 month old and are a little smaller than my auratus. 
This was the last breeding for my pair (I bought the pair and soon after they laid eggs-May 22nd of 2009). They have not layed since so I figured they needed to have a long rest. Believe it or not I have a tad from them still in the water with small back legs. As far as the 2 I have, will just keep them and when they are sexable, if male and female will separate them.
Good topic...need more posts.


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi MD Frogger,

Over the last year, I have raised probably 30 normal-sized Giant Orange tinctorius. Rarely, I have morphed some froglets that were really tiny and didn't seem to grow for several months. I really worked to get them more and better nutrition and (today) they are nearly the same size as their siblings (the smallest original pair is now laying fertile clutches of eggs).

I personally wouldn't not breed them, just try to optimize nutrition for them and for their tads.

Good luck! Richard in Staten island, NYC.


----------



## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

hexentanz said:


> I saw at a friends some Tinctorius which were raised in really large vivaria (1 pair per vivarium), the frogs were normal sized like in the wild compared to those grown in tanks smaller in size. I also observed this at a few local breeders. When asked about the size of the larger frogs, everyone always said the frogs were raised in really large tanks.
> 
> I do agree with you, but it is weird however.



How large are we talking about?


----------

