# The Pet Trade's role in Conservation?



## SpaceMan (Aug 25, 2013)

I'm genuinely curious as to what impact the pet trade, specifically dart frogs at large, has on their wild populations?

Responsible individuals, and I'm sure the vast majority of us on these forums, source our frogs from captive breeding programs. But in the process of our ownership, we are surely excited to share the tiny ecosystems we have made in our living rooms, and their colorful and interesting inhabitants. In one way, that's a great thing, as it educates people about these animals and the problems they face in the wild. In another, it might encourage less-responsible individuals to have some of their very own, and these people might not be willing to pay the extra cash for the captive-bred status. 

Broadly speaking, the pet trade at any level creates a lucrative market where money can be made. For some, this means breeding programs. For others, this might mean smuggling wildlife. Is this a real issue in our hobby? 

Then there's the topic of inexperienced or negligent individuals releasing their pets into the wild, creating an invasive species issue. I think with most dart frogs species, this is a rather non-issue. But if you're skeptical as to what a single hobbyist can do, you might want to look up the Lionfish. In the last 10-15 years, the Lionfish has decimated Caribbean reefs. They have no natural predators there, and they reproduce in great abundance and frequency. It's reported that they have reduced reef fish diversity by up 80% in places. It's thought that the entire population (which can be found up and down the Eastern Coast of the US, and throughout all Caribbean waters), likely came from a single reef tank hobbyist releasing a handful of fish into the waters off of Florida. 

I know that there are much bigger issues facing our frogs, and these include climate change and habitat loss. But what responsibility to we have in the hobby to promote awareness, and reduce the impact our transactions have on the species we love?


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

I think the issue of captive bred vs wild for the majority of the species in this hobby are easier sourced through a breeder. Where as, (again, these are my intuitions as I’ve not done a population assay of any of these species) something less frequently encountered like an Oophaga variation might warrant the capture/import. 

The other thought I had was pet stores. I think that’s a place we should find a way to reach out so that they can give accurate information to a customer. I’ve not been to too many that sell Dendrobatid or the like but there’s much for someone at those places to unlearn. To that end, ensuring they aren’t getting wild caught animals is of maybe greater importance.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

There has been pages and pages of discussion on this by members who don't come around much anymore. 

This thread contains a definitive analysis:
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/s...ive-bred-conservation-efforts.html#post576511

For (much, much) more, the search feature will drop a bomb on you. Search 'smuggling', 'conservation', 'captive breeding', etc.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Smuggling is a very serious issue when it comes to dart frogs and has been going on for quite some time. Just because someone buys captive bred frogs does not mean they are ethically sourced. The parents may have been smuggled. Or the grandparents etc.

You give too much credit to the people on this forum as being "responsible". At best you could say most of us want to be responsible. Many hobbyists are well intentioned but have not responsibly sourced their animals, even though they were captive bred. They are unintentional contributors to smuggling. I attribute this ignorance to being new to the hobby, with their preoccupation being their search for knowledge on the care of their animals rather than their origin. "Responsible" keepers care about both. My two cents on this issue that will fuel debate until the end of time.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

SpaceMan said:


> Responsible individuals, and I'm sure the vast majority of us on these forums, source our frogs from captive breeding programs.





varanoid said:


> Smuggling is a very serious issue when it comes to dart frogs and has been going on for quite some time. Just because someone buys captive bred frogs does not mean they are ethically sourced. The parents may have been smuggled. Or the grandparents etc.


I agree with varanoid, and I'd like to point out that a lot of what might be said in regards to frogs can be said in regards to the entire herp hobby. It is my understanding that, for example, most Australian reptile species (bearded dragons, Children's complex pythons, womas, many geckos and monitors) in captivity outside of Australia have no legal origin.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentar...t/Completed_inquiries/1996-99/wild/report/c07

I quoted from SpaceMan above because I was going to launch into some rant about 'responsible individuals', which I'm sometimes accused of being, but I'm just going to stew quietly about it for now. I think I'm like most of us in that I try to be responsible, but I don't try *too* hard.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

When I was a kid in the late 90's and early 00's, my local reptile show was filled with crazy wild caught specimens of frogs, geckos, invertebrates, etc. I distinctly remember bins (not deli cups, literal bins) filled with mantellas, mostly golden mantellas, that went for about $15 a piece and were wild caught. Fast forward to 2019 and the golden mantella is critically endangered. Around the same time period, electric blue geckos were aggressively harvested for the pet trade. Supposedly one group of collectors captured 15% of all the geckos in the wild to sell as pets.  It is also now critically endangered. 

So, the pet trade can have profoundly negative impacts on wild populations. From my subjective perspective, things have gotten better - I don't see many crazy wild caught animals at local shows anymore, and folks seem to be having discussions like this one about how to behave more ethically. But as others have pointed out, it's still a problem even if it doesn't seem as flagrant. Personally, I just don't own any animals that are wild caught, and I shy away from species that haven't been established in the hobby for years and years (this is partially motivated by welfare concerns as well as conservation - I can't justify purchasing an animal that I don't know how to provide with proper husbandry). My hope would be that hobbyists who keep reptiles and amphibians shift from an animal collecting mentality to a vivarium collecting mentality. That is, you have a few animals, and collect additional things like exotic plants and hardscapes and the collection aspect is a driving force to build new, more enriching enclosures for your pets, rather than just accumulating more pets. I do think this is happening already, and would like to see it continue in the future. 

There will likely always be a baseline level of malfeasance and smuggling from unscrupulous people. I think it's our job to try and make sure it never reaches the levels it did with the electric blue geckos or mantellas. We might not be able to stop a handful of illegal animals getting into the pet trade, but no animal should have 15% of its population collected for sale, that's insane. We can stop that. Department of Fish and Wildlife agents do patrol forums and social media now and again, but realistically those agencies are understaffed. If we see something that's illegal, we need to report it, and if we see something that's technically legal but morally wrong, we need to not condone it. There are selfish as well as altruistic motives for doing so - the general public isn't super into exotic animal keeping. If the hobby is allowing wild animal populations to become endangered or extinct, it's only a matter of time before we start seeing more laws regulating reptile and amphibian ownership, which will adversely affect ethical keepers along with the unethical ones.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

There are many negatives to the captive animal industry and those species' conservation in the wild, and those have been covered above and numerous times over the course of this forum. 

A counter argument, specific to the frog hobby, is the hobby's direct ability to impact conservation by supporting programs such as Wikiri, Understory Enterprises, INIBICO, Operation Mitsinjo, and Tesoros. These are all in situ and ex situ conservation programs funded partly by sales of animals that they produce for the hobby. 

Also, while the plight of L. williamsi is probably largely over-collection driven, that isn't as much the case with Mantellas. Madagascar is slash-and-burning their forests much more quickly than their species can be over-collected.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Spaff said:


> There are many negatives to the captive animal industry and those species' conservation in the wild, and those have been covered above and numerous times over the course of this forum.
> 
> A counter argument, specific to the frog hobby, is the hobby's direct ability to impact conservation by supporting programs such as Wikiri, Understory Enterprises, INIBICO, Operation Mitsinjo, and Tesoros. These are all in situ and ex situ conservation programs funded partly by sales of animals that they produce for the hobby.
> 
> Also, while the plight of L. williamsi is probably largely over-collection driven, that isn't as much the case with Mantellas. Madagascar is slash-and-burning their forests much more quickly than their species can be over-collected.


Don't get me wrong, I keep exotics and support the keeping of exotic pets, and my position should not be misinterpreted as being the contrary. I do think these are fair examples to bring up in a new thread about the pet trade's role in conservation, as cautionary tales to help guide us in the future. 

I am not familiar with all of those organizations, but if they are producing their own frogs, I would consider them to be an ideal source of captive bred animals. And in addition to projects trying to generate scientific/conservation funding via frog farms, a very tangible benefit to science and conservation that the reptile/amphibian trade (frogs or otherwise) makes is getting kids interested in biology and conservation to begin with. That's how it was for me - I'm almost done with veterinary school, and I worked in and majored in biology previously. My education and career has been largely based off of passions and interests I developed keeping and breeding frogs and geckos when I was a kid. I've heard similar backgrounds from other vets and scientists as well. I owe a lot to animal keeping, and I do think it is a net positive for society. 

Still, those dang bins of emaciated mantellas.. that's a memory that will stick with me. Madagascar may be torching their forests, but that doesn't excuse adding additional population pressures. I'm optimistic for the future though. I feel like the hobby is light years ahead of where it was when I was a kid, in terms of improved ethics as well as the availability of high quality information and supplies (UVB lamps weren't even available until 1993... that's crazy to me). I do believe that today, with readily available supplies, we are able to provide very good welfare to these animals, and if you're conscientious about what species you purchase and who you purchase from, there will be no harm done to individual animals or their larger populations.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

connorology said:


> Still, those dang bins of emaciated mantellas.. that's a memory that will stick with me. Madagascar may be torching their forests, but that doesn't excuse adding additional population pressures. I'm optimistic for the future though. I feel like the hobby is light years ahead of where it was when I was a kid, in terms of improved ethics as well as the availability of high quality information and supplies (UVB lamps weren't even available until 1993... that's crazy to me). I do believe that today, with readily available supplies, we are able to provide very good welfare to these animals, and if you're conscientious about what species you purchase and who you purchase from, there will be no harm done to individual animals or their larger populations.


Be careful not to confuse two distinct issues: (1) The proper care of captive livestock, and (2) the harm to ecosystems due to removal of livestock. 

The fact that those Mantellas were poorly treated after collection doesn't really matter from the 'conservation' point of view; an animal, once removed from the wild, is lost to that ecosystem regardless of what happens to it afterwards. (Yes, that animal could be used in a captive breeding program, but see the thread I linked above for complications to that model. And yes, there are animal welfare issues that we should care about, but those are independent of the conservation issues). 

If fifty Mantellas were taken out of Madagascar, then there are fifty less Mantellas in Madagascar, full stop. If a Mantella is mistreated, whether it is WC or CB, then a Mantella has been mistreated, full stop. The solutions for each issue (wild population decline; poor captive care) are distinct.

FWIW, Connor, I agree with much of what you've said on this, especially regarding captive animal keeping as a path to appreciation/investigation of the natural world. My educational path leaned a bit differently than yours, but I suspect our childhood experiences with nature were similar.


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