# Auratus v. Azureus?



## harpy (Mar 10, 2006)

My second tank is now pretty much ready to go. It is a 15 gallon (long) that I have set up for horizontal.

I am pretty sure I have narrowed my choices to:

1 Azureus -OR-
2 to 3 Auratus

I like the idea of multiple frogs, but am also enamored with the beauty of the Azureus. I don't really want to get 2 azureus froglets only to end up having to set up 2 azureus tanks if they are same sex. 

Question: Do azureus do okay as singletons?

Any other thoughts would be appreciated! Thanks,

Greg L.
Temperance, MI


1.0.1 leucomelas

Coming soon:

Auratus
Azureus
Imitator


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## amphibianfreak (Jul 21, 2004)

You can always buy a sexed pair of either if you are worried about your odds with froglets.


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## harpy (Mar 10, 2006)

True, but is a 15 a little on the small side for a pair of azureus?

Greg


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## amphibianfreak (Jul 21, 2004)

No, a 15 should be fine


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've kept pairs in 10 gallons just fine (other than the slight problem between the current "pair" but thats behavioral not space issues - when they don't like each other there just isn't enough space in a tank to keep them together!).

I know patrick sells subadult pairs of azureus on a regular basis, and you see pairs pop up in the classifieds on occassion. Its worth the extra $$ to aviod the situation you described (tho there are cases of same sex animals raised together without the other sex present getting along fine). Plus two azureus are just so much prettier than one!

2-3 auratus might also work, but IMO 3 is a horrible number to keep PDFs in, and 2 juvies raised together just seems to cause problems (one always does better than the other). 

I stick to the individual, sexed pair, or group (5+) rule. Applies both with azureus and auratus. Froglets are best raised individually or in groups of 5+, any less and I've always had issues with one or more (smaller, skinnier, etc) and this is even more apparent with raised 2-3 together. Keeping adults in groups of 3 or 4 is problematic (especially in azureus) so its better to aviod the probs and either just keep a pair, or get a larger tank together for 5+ animals (especially good with auratus).

Any PDF is perfectly fine as a singleton - PDFs don't get lonely. You just won't get breeding (obviously) and breeding related behavior (which can make some PDFs bolder) and some animals kept in groups show more interesting behavior (such as tricolor). Both my azureus currently are "singletons" and are perfectly fine and healthy. There are no problems with keeping them singly except on the end of the keeper!


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## harpy (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks a bunch. As always, very helpful!

Greg


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I've had few problems having pairs of same sex azuerus together...but they were always males. Also put them in together and leave them together till you are ready to make pairs of them. If they are seperated then reintroduced later there is much more likely hood of problems. Best if they are both younger also.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Same sexed pairs raised together from before sexual maturity are less likely to have problems - I stress the before sexual maturity bit. 

Introducing two sexually mature animals of the same sex will most likely result in the same sex aggression we hear about - they are establishing hierarchy and territory with the other sexually mature animal which is competition. This includes animals raised together then reintroduced. DO NOT introduce a sexually mature same sex animal into a tank that already has an established same sex sexually mature individual, the new animal will become the beating post of the animal who has established the tank as its territory already..

This is especially strong in male members of the species as they are the ones that establish breeding territories, the females are aggressive over the males. If the males aren't present, its less likely females will fight, but still possible.

This aggression is seen thru out Dendrobatidae, to varying degrees, and is why when introducing animals of the same sex or groups of animals containing members of the same sex, make sure its a new tank for all parties, otherwise the animals with established territories will beat the living daylights out of the new comers - they all need a clean slate to set up a hierarchy that has a chance of success for all.


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

> 2-3 auratus might also work, but IMO 3 is a horrible number to keep PDFs in, and 2 juvies raised together just seems to cause problems (one always does better than the other).


Why is 3 a horrible number to keep? We keep many tanks w/ trios (2 males, 1 female) and this seems to stimulate breeding a lot more than pairs. We work w/ auratus and have never had a problem w/ this. With our breeding we like trios as it allows a bit of female choice (we also randomly shuffle the trios every 6 months or so).
~B


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Oh! Just re-read it...were you talking about 3 froglets?
~B


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You're actually negating much of the long term trio and quad problems by shuffling them around... unless there is strong agression its over a longer time period that you'd probibly see the third wheel go downhill. It also sounds like your trios are 2.1, which is better in most cases I can think of species wise than 1.2. There are exceptions to all of these with trios and quads of pretty much every combination doing well long term, but these are still exceptions as there are many more that don't do well.

Animals do seem to breed better with competition, this is even shown with some highly aggressive cichlids (where I got a lot of my agressive frog breeding ideas from) having a pair that will not breed unless there is another male in the tank to get beaten up (and the many ways for these expensive animals not to get killed yet still provide the stimulus needed). Groups provide this competition very well, as the needed agression is well spread out and not detrimental to any indidividual animal, which long term could (and i've personally had) happen.

In my groups I like to provide 2-3 more males than there are pairs in the tank. Lots of male choices for the girl, yet plenty of extra males so there is not one particular animal not getting action and getting all the breeding agression taken out on.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

A good freind of mine used to only keep trios of his adult frogs in his collection aside from the P. bicolor (quintuplet group). I have heard though, that the "3rd wheel" thing does sometimes kill one off. I do believe however that having that extra male in there, like you mentioned, creates that competition that stimulates the breeding behavior.

When I used to breed Red-eyes, I tried to have 3 males to 1 female for extra guarunteed success. Don't most PDF breeders have trios? For some reason, I always thought they did.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> Why is 3 a horrible number to keep? We keep many tanks w/ trios (2 males, 1 female) and this seems to stimulate breeding a lot more than pairs. We work w/ auratus and have never had a problem w/ this. With our breeding we like trios as it allows a bit of female choice (we also randomly shuffle the trios every 6 months or so).


It isn't. I have 2.1 ratio for both tricolor and mantella betsileo. I would agree, without the other male in both groups, I would be at a disadvantage with breeding.

I think if you end up with two FEMALES instead of two male tincs/azureus, I think you have a problem....but keep in mind surface area to volume decreases rapidly as tank volume goes up, so it could just be you're overcrowding the animals.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> Why is 3 a horrible number to keep? We keep many tanks w/ trios (2 males, 1 female) and this seems to stimulate breeding a lot more than pairs. We work w/ auratus and have never had a problem w/ this. With our breeding we like trios as it allows a bit of female choice (we also randomly shuffle the trios every 6 months or so).


It isn't. I have 2.1 ratio for both tricolor and mantella betsileo. I would agree, without the other male in both groups, I would be at a disadvantage with breeding.

I think if you end up with two FEMALES instead of two male tincs/azureus, I think you have a problem....but keep in mind surface area to volume decreases rapidly as tank volume goes up, so it could just be you're overcrowding the animals.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Most PDF breeders do pairs. Less worry about the extra male suffering from too much aggression, or an extra female squabbling or eating eggs. Groups of 5+ are becoming more popular, but the trios and quads I see around are usually hobbyests. I do know one large sized hobby breeder that keeps all his animals in very large groups... including not just his mint terribilis (which do very well in groups) but stuff like cobalts, azureus, inferalanis - stuff we normally think is pairs only! Always fun to see a tank of 15 or so azureus  Very aggressive animals, but the aggression is so spread out with so many in the tank...

...but that means a lot of large tanks, that many breeders may want a lot of small tanks instead so they can have lots of pairs of different frogs.

I'm not sure tricolor and mantellas are a good comparison for other frogs like tinc group frogs... both do much better in groups than tincs generally do and handle it much better. The pair or group (5+) rule works across the board for PDFs (mantellas generally do better in larger groups but do breed in pairs), while the trios and quads MAY work, depending on the species and morph. Also, trio and quad don't dictate the sex ratio... 2.1 will usually work where 1.2 may not, but it depends so highly on the species, morph, and individual frogs...

As for overcrowding with females... if you have 1.2 the dominant female would run the other out of the territory, and most of our tanks don't even remotely cover this. The extra males in the territory, such as 3.2 ratio, would mean that there is an abundence of males in the territory, and the female only has to be protective over her specific male, and the other female is less likely to fight over that specific male with others to choose from... and you still have an extra male to mix things up and keep them competative.


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## Guest (May 25, 2006)

a pair of azures is my vote

i know its not an option


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

why is it not an option? 15 long doesn't have the same or more room than a 10 that most people keep pairs of azureus in?


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

because he said he wanted 3 of one or just 1 azureus. i think it comes down to money


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## mike (Mar 8, 2005)

My vote is to go with a sexed pair of either auratus or azureus.
I got a pair of each in late march and now I have 17 auratus tads
in the water and 3 azureus tads in the water and several eggs with
tads developing and getting more eggs every few days.
Before long I should be able to pick the froglets I want to keep and
hopefully trade the others for darts that I do not have. HOPEFULLY!
Plus I have really enjoyed watching and working with the developing
tads. 

Mike


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## harpy (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks for all the replies and opinions. Ultimately, I will probably go with the sexed pair of Azureus (money no issue, really-in this hobby, is it ever?). I think that although I love Aurautus and like the idea of not having to worry about a group dynamic, the Azureus are more spectacular (even though I LOVE the green on the Auratus) - color, and more importantly, personality. It sure seems like azureus will be much easier to view than the shyer Auratus.

Thanks again,

Greg


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