# Sad News and EpiWeb/Matala Warning



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I was doing some routine tank trimming, I couldn't locate one of my bicolors. After some aggresive checking I found him hanging from the EpiWeb background. His foot was stuck and even I had a hard time pulling it out. Poor thing. This was my first and now last time using EpiWeb. I'm going to stick with the pond foam/peat thing.


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## dom (Sep 23, 2007)

sorry to hear that.


is this the first incident with epiweb?


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

Did he survive or no? I suppose it could get caught in just about anything like that, but I have to imagine it's rare.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

He was dead when I found him. It was only a couple days since i feed them last and they were all fine then. 
There were concerns some time earlier about this exact thing happening. Additionally, it was thought that the "rough" texture may be irritating to them. It didn't seem this way for mine as I saw them climbing the EpiWeb back wall quite often. 
I personnally am not going to wait for enough statistics to see if it would be considered rare or not. I've had them 14months without a single problem and just moved them to the EpiWeb tank about 6months ago. One is still MIA and I pulled the third.


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## sNApple (Mar 19, 2007)

thanks for the heads up, several months ago i found one of my auratus dead with a twisted leg... hmm :shock:


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Wow Eric, that really sucks. Thanks for the warning. 

Hopefully you locate the second one safely.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm giving the last one a day or so to show up before I go in. I'm hoping its just hiding from my trimming activity. It may also have gotten stressed from seeing the other struggle and then die while trying to free itself. I still feel a little sick about it all. I really liked and had good plans for that trio.

I actually have another bicolor twosome in QT, with at least one known female that I was going to add to the trio in that tank. The original trio were older, hadn't bred, and after several months of observation, it appeared likely to me that they consisted of one dominate and two subordinate males. In one small way I guess its better I found out about the potential issues now.

I was also starting to move toward converting additional tanks over to EpiWeb because I liked the look of it and it had the potential to be recycled. That won't be happening now. There is another product similar to EpiWeb called Matala. Its black as well and has a "weave" that is a lot more open and looser. Far less likely to trap a hand, foot, finger, or toe, IMO. It's also very smooth and not nearly as abrasive. I bought a sheet of it some time ago but decided to try the EpiWeb first. It also looked like it would be great for use in false bottoms. I'll bring some Matala pieces by NAAC to see what others think about it.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Eric,

Sorry to hear about your bicolor. I was looking into the Matala and had a hard time getting a response from the distributor. I would be interested in taking a look if you can drop by the Dartfrog Depot table at NAAC.

Chris


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> I would be interested in taking a look if you can drop by the Dartfrog Depot table at NAAC.


Will do!


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Realizing this a pretty old post, I'd like to ask a question for those who have experience with the subject.....

I have not used Epiweb or Tree fern bark myself, however would tree fern bark have been any safer to use?

from what I've seen in pics, tree fern bark has a lot of tiny open areas as well that could catch a frogs legs. 

Was this issue due to the size of the openings in the fibers? If so, is there a distinguishable difference between the two that would make one "safer" to use than the other?

thanks.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here:

Initially, there was a product sold in the U.S. under the label of EpiWeb but wasn't the actual EpiWeb material. Some mentioned that it seemed rather abrasive in texture. If/how it was specifically different from actual EpiWeb, I'm not sure, but many people did purcahse it assuming it was in fact the real thing. I'm not sure if what pl259 here purchased was the real stuff or the fake stuff marketed as the real thing...he would have to answer that...but the timeline would seem to fit.

So, to accurately answer your question, I would make sure that the replies you get are from people who have managed to obtain the actual EpiWeb material and not the alternative.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I purchased the Epiweb from the only vendor in NA that was selling it at the time. As I understand it, the vendor purchased "real" Epiweb, from the true manufacturer. Later the manufacturer changed something with one of their suppliers. Not sure what changed, and I haven't seen it, but until then, I personally won't assume it significantly reduces the risk.

The safest position to take, is to make sure that whatever product is used, its used in a manner that does does pose a significant risk. Based on my experience, I no longer use any exposed background material that has any reasonable potential for this problem. Used as part of the drainage layer however, where it's not in direct contact with frogs, would be a safe use of the material. 

For me, the concerns would include use of exposed tree fern panel, if used in a tank with larger frogs. Thumbs, ect. I would be OK with. Tree fern doesn't appear that it would be as aggressive in trapping a frog's toe, foot, leg. Probably less of a risk, IMO.

All of that said, I sure there are froggers that would chime in to minimize this risk by stating the number of years and tanks they have had with no problems. 

To each their own.


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

pl259 said:


> All of that said, I sure there are froggers that would chime in to minimize this risk by stating the number of years and tanks they have had with no problems.




True.

It would appear that the number of problems with the product have been exceedingly few for the volume of people who have used it. Of course that certainly doesn't minimize YOUR losses to to a bad experience, and clearly there is a potential hazard to using the product.

I guess one has to determine if that risk is acceptable to them or not. Right now, I am only using the decorative photo printed jungle growth that comes on rolls at the local fish store, taped to the back of the tank. real low maintenance, no watering etc. 

As epiweb and tree fern bark is a touch on the expensive side, I had planned to use a ridiculously cheaper alternative, filter material normally used for aquarium trickle filter systems, spread a layer of spores and plants on it, and grow on that. 

However, this thread which I found last week has me reconsidering that, even if the odds are minimal that I as well would suffer the same fate. I'd hate to risk several hundred dollars worth of frogs on it.


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## Sharkdude (Nov 9, 2009)

curious what your experience with the matala mat was. I am familiar with matala as filter media for koi pond biofilters.


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

I would also be interested in hearing the verdict on the Matala mat, as that was the filter media I was alluding to in my last post.


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

I think as long as the epiweb is covered in moss or other plants it should be fine.
Im trying the brown doodlebug crubby pads, so far they have been working out but only time will tell.
Has anyone else tried this or something similar?


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I've been using the black Matala is several tanks, in different applications. Only one tank as a background though, the rest as a drainage layer. In both case I've been very happy with it. As a background, it goes up quickly with a couple dabs of silicone. I cut a couple black mesh pots in half and ty wrapped them to the background. I then planted a couple fast growing philos, and you can't even see the Matala anymore. The frogs climb all over it with no problems and they're even breeding now. One draw back is that the Matala does not hold moisture like the denser Epiweb products do.

I really like the Matala as a drainage layer. It makes setting up and breaking down the tank, a piece of cake, which is something that I'm trying to do routinely now every couple years. It's very easy to clean and reuse.


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## Morgan Freeman (Feb 26, 2009)

I've been hesitant to try epiweb for this very reason, if I were to use it I'd always planned on making sure it was covered in moss before I placed any inhabitants in.

I've just started a tank which is part tree fern root and I'm still a little worried, although it seems far less abrasive and potentially less harmful than epiweb. In fact the tree fern I have seems more tightly woven than some of the tanks I've seen on here, I'm assuming it's because I use a European supplier and it's slightly different stuff.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Morgan Freeman said:


> I've been hesitant to try epiweb for this very reason, if I were to use it I'd always planned on making sure it was covered in moss before I placed any inhabitants in.
> 
> I've just started a tank which is part tree fern root and I'm still a little worried, although it seems far less abrasive and potentially less harmful than epiweb. In fact the tree fern I have seems more tightly woven than some of the tanks I've seen on here, I'm assuming it's because I use a European supplier and it's slightly different stuff.


Have your heard any other reports of these type problems, on your side of the pond?


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## qwertkb2d (Aug 14, 2007)

I have used Epiweb in my 10 verts for over a year with no ill problems. Not to fight over the reason for the loss of your frog, but there are many risks froggers take: False Bottoms, Deep water, Bromeliads with thorns, gaps in the backgrounds....

There is really never a 100% safe environment.

Needless to say I'm sorry for the loss of your frog, but I have had no issue --yet-- with my epiweb and most of it is covered with sphagnum moss and real moss is starting to spread out over it from the places it started months ago.

I see the danger, but I think the long term overall benefit of having a background that doesn't decay or need replacing far outweighs the initial rough texture.


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## Morgan Freeman (Feb 26, 2009)

pl259 said:


> Have your heard any other reports of these type problems, on your side of the pond?



Nothing personally no, but I don't really frequent any dart frog specific forums (bar this of course) just generalised frog ones.


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## brp4e (Nov 1, 2009)

One thing that can be done to eliminate this sort of problem is when you silicone the epiweb on the glass as a background take the great stuff spray foam and put that on top of the epiweb and do the peat thing only leaving small spots of epiweb exposed for where you can put the plants.. heres an example 90 Gallon Vivarium - Pic Heavy - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

brp4e said:


> One thing that can be done to eliminate this sort of problem is when you silicone the epiweb on the glass as a background take the great stuff spray foam and put that on top of the epiweb and do the peat thing only leaving small spots of epiweb exposed for where you can put the plants.. heres an example 90 Gallon Vivarium - Pic Heavy - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !


that tank is on this forum too


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## gold3nku5h (Jul 24, 2008)

I dont think anyone should use epi-web, its constricting on roots, not really constricting, but theres no way in hell to get a nice plant out once its taken root, it looks ugly in my opinion and just doesn't seem like a good material to use in paludariums, or anything for that matter.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

gold3nku5h said:


> I dont think anyone should use epi-web, its constricting on roots, not really constricting, but theres no way in hell to get a nice plant out once its taken root, it looks ugly in my opinion and just doesn't seem like a good material to use in paludariums, or anything for that matter.


It is not meant to be used in Temporary or semi temporary uses.
It is designed to be used in a permanent use.

Once established it is great option, I don't tear out my vivariums.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Marty makes some nice viv's eh? He has been perfecting his tanks with the EpiWeb for some time now. I remember one of his early tanks at the frogs show up in the NE a few years back.

CD



brp4e said:


> One thing that can be done to eliminate this sort of problem is when you silicone the epiweb on the glass as a background take the great stuff spray foam and put that on top of the epiweb and do the peat thing only leaving small spots of epiweb exposed for where you can put the plants.. heres an example 90 Gallon Vivarium - Pic Heavy - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

As crazy as it sounds, I just saved a trapped bicolor from my Matala background. I hadn't seen my only female bicolor in a couple days. I went in to find her and to my horror she was jammed in and stuck into the background. I touched her leg and fortunately she moved, but squirmed in deeper. I ended up cutting her out. She sat by the pond for about two hours recovering. I am completely done with either of these products as a background. The Matala works great as a drainage layer, but that's it.

DON'T USE EXPOSED MATALA OR EPIWEB WITH PDFS!!!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

pl259 said:


> As crazy as it sounds, I just saved a trapped bicolor from my Matala background. I hadn't seen my only female bicolor in a couple days. I went in to find her and to my horror she was jammed in and stuck into the background. I touched her leg and fortunately she moved, but squirmed in deeper. I ended up cutting her out. She sat by the pond for about two hours recovering. I am completely done with either of these products as a background. The Matala works great as a drainage layer, but that's it.
> 
> DON'T USE EXPOSED MATALA OR EPIWEB WITH PDFS!!!


Man, Eric. That is rough but not surprising. I've noticed that my bicolors love to wedge themselves into any open crevice, tree hole, open tree fern, etc. Glad she is ok.


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

pl259 said:


> As crazy as it sounds, I just saved a trapped bicolor from my Matala background. I hadn't seen my only female bicolor in a couple days. I went in to find her and to my horror she was jammed in and stuck into the background. I touched her leg and fortunately she moved, but squirmed in deeper. I ended up cutting her out. She sat by the pond for about two hours recovering. I am completely done with either of these products as a background. The Matala works great as a drainage layer, but that's it.
> 
> DON'T USE EXPOSED MATALA OR EPIWEB WITH PDFS!!!


Im really glad that she is ok but i guess im going to have to pull the matala out of the tank i was working on for my bastis.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

If your using the black stuff you're probably OK. The bastis are too small to get stuck in it. I would be worried more with any mid size frog like adult bicolors, vittatus, auratus, smaller tincs. Thumbs and pums should be fine. Tricolors, Quins, and Zaps are questionable, IMO.


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

im sure your right but im a poor frogger  and rather not take the chance either way. i really appreciate you posting these problems. Ill just use the matala for growing plants in a grow out tank instead


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

Fill the epiweb or Matala with ground spag moss or moss mix and you get ride of this problem. You also gain a living background if you provide enough light and water.
Just my opinion


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