# Am I making my first viv more expensive than it needs to be?



## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Alright, I am looking to get a pair of yellow terribs in a 24x18x18. Adding everything up so far I am close to $900. Is that typical or am I completely overkilling it? After a ton of research both on this form and what I've found on Josh's Frogs, here is a list of everything priced out that I have thought of. Everything is from Josh's Frogs website unless otherwise noted.

Exo Terra 24x18x18 - $180
Glass top - $10
This and this to add vents at the front and back - $83 (IMO I'd rather have these sleek looking vents than a bad looking $20 DIY)
Spectral Design 22x10 light - $115
3 bags of LECA false bottom - $30
Substrate barrier - $3
3 bags of ABG mix - $39
1 bag of Sphagnum Moss - $7
Tap water dechlorinator - $5
3 bags of leaf litter - $21
Plant kit for 24x18x18 - $88
3 manzanita branches - $24
2 Liter pressure spray bottle - $15
2 Yellow terribs + shipping - $200
Springtails - $12
Producing FF culter - $9
Calcium D3 - $6
Herptivitie - $9
Calcium Plus - $11.50

That brings the total upfront cost to $868.20 before tax.

As far as recurring costs, I imaging it'll be close to $18/month not counting electricity for running the light.

Replace leaf litter every 6 months - $3.50/mo
Replace Calcium D3 every 6 months - $1/mo
Replace Herptivite every 6 months - $1.50
Replace Calcium Plus every 6 months - $1.92/mo
New FF culture shipped every 3 weeks - $10.11/mo

How often do springtails need to be replaced? Or will they just keep reproducing inside the viv?

Im also ditching the thermometer and hygrometer based on recommendations from this forum, though it makes me nervous about humidity. I already own a temp gun and my thermostat ranges from 73/74 in the summer to 69/70 in the winter.

On a side note... at what age do yellow terribs typically start calling? I am super excited about the noise and having a piece of the rainforest in my house but even though my wife is very excited about getting dart frogs too, she is worried about the frequency of calling and if it will start to bug her. Yes, there are quieter calling frogs than the terrib, but for now, I just want to hear people's experiences before considering getting a different species.


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## tinc2344 (Jul 23, 2008)

When you add the enclosure, lights, and then the modifications cost plus time to do the mods you are pretty much at the cost of a Insitu Amazonia which wouldn't need the mods.

Also, look at culturing your own FF, its not hard to due so the there's no monthly cost. I make my own media and for about $20 that last me 6-8 months.

You can ditch the rest of the supplement's and keep the Calcium Plus, all that is needed


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

You don't need the fancy screen kits. All you need to do is cover the stock screen with glass inserts and leave a gap at the back.

If you go to a big box store you can probably find a pressure sprayer for half that cost. I bought a 4L pressure sprayer for about $7usd.

As mentioned by @tinc2344 you only need the Repashy calcium plus. The other supplements aren't designed for dart frogs. The vendor whose site and list you're using wants you to buy more things than you need....

You can go with a light that would cost about 1/3 of the SD light. I use Nicrew aquarium lights and they work just fine. For a tank that size the light I'd use would cost about $35-40 max.

Culturing your own fruit flies will cost you about $1.50 a culture, or less. Culture the springtails outside the vivarium and you can reseed the tank whenever you need to.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

No. Setting up a tank is expensive. Those vents do look good.

Also, things get cheaper the more you do them. You realize where the bargains are. You buy things in bulk. You have a big bag of X left over from a previous project. 

Make you own fruit fly cultures.

Only use Calcium plus.

Don't worry about measuring the humidity. Watch your frogs. They will tell you if they get too dry. They will change their behavior and stop looking for food all the time and seek moist shelter. You have a good amount of venting. Unless you are crazy about misting you shouldn't make it too moist.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Here's a good thread where we discussed how some people save money on their builds

How do experienced keepers save money on enclosures and...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

In addition to what's already been said -- a big +1 on all of it -- you don't need "1 bag of Sphagnum Moss - $7", especially for terribs. It'll rot their feet, and rot your leaf litter, and do nothing beneficial.

Some items that might be reconsidered on grounds other than simply immediate cost:

I suspect that "3 manzanita branches - $24" aren't going to be much of a hardscape at all. There's no info on Josh's site on how large these are, decent representative photos, etc. It is much easier to get the hardscape right in the beginning than tear it up in three months once the plants have grown in. Look at build photos here, learn about how that species uses space, and work with the dimensions of your viv in designing an ideal hardscape.

I'm not a fan of "Plant kit for 24x18x18 - $88", though it is the easiest and (up front, anyway) likely cheapest option. The plants in those 'kits' aren't always the best choices for darts -- e.g. you'll likely get a fern in there that terribs will mash to bits. It is more complicated, and possibly more expensive, to learn about why which plants are good with which species of dart, but you won't have to replace them because they weren't appropriate to being with, or outgrow the viv in a year, or are just a waste of space in a viv that really, really needs to be used effectively for such large and active frogs. Whatever you do, learn about bleach dipping plants (from any source) before planting -- it'll save you a tear down in the future to get rid of the slugs or flatworms or heebie jeebie monsters or whatever.


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## FrogPrince (Sep 20, 2018)

BlueJohn said:


> Alright, I am looking to get a pair of yellow terribs in a 24x18x18. Adding everything up so far I am close to $900. Is that typical or am I completely overkilling it? After a ton of research both on this form and what I've found on Josh's Frogs, here is a list of everything priced out that I have thought of. Everything is from Josh's Frogs website unless otherwise noted.
> 
> Exo Terra 24x18x18 - $180
> Glass top - $10
> ...


If you looking to really save costs, yes the above is overkill but some can easily be done at a later date. I started with an old aquarium (10 gallons) with lava rock on the bottom with long milled sphagnum on the top with Philodendrom oxycardium cordatum cuttings on the top. Leaf litter collected from a clean source outside. This makes a great grow out tank and to this day I still use it as a staple in my tank collection. A fellow collector uses reptile screens with Saran Wrap over the tanks to keep humidity in. As you can see from the comments, we all have different thoughts and ways of keeping dart frogs. All do work just depending on their conditions.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Thanks for the tips. Im ditching the moss and supplements except for calcium plus. Still on the fence about culturing my own fruit flies and springtails, but Ill give it some more thought.



fishingguy12345 said:


> You can go with a light that would cost about 1/3 of the SD light. I use Nicrew aquarium lights and they work just fine. For a tank that size the light I'd use would cost about $35-40 max.


Good call, I guess the SD light is one of the more pricier items on the list. I initially put that on the list to have a low profile to put it under my kitchen cabinets but then realized the humidity and cabinet proximity may lead to a rotting cabinet. Plus the place I had planned to put it wouldn't get any rear ventilation. Now that height isn't an issue I'll find a cheaper light.



fishingguy12345 said:


> The vendor whose site and list you're using wants you to buy more things than you need....


Thanks the #1 reason I wanted to verify on this forum first 😀



bulbophyllum said:


> They will change their behavior and stop looking for food all the time and seek moist shelter.


Good call I guess that would be easier to tell than I had thought.



Socratic Monologue said:


> I suspect that "3 manzanita branches - $24" aren't going to be much of a hardscape at all. There's no info on Josh's site on how large these are, decent representative photos, etc. It is much easier to get the hardscape right in the beginning than tear it up in three months once the plants have grown in. Look at build photos here, learn about how that species uses space, and work with the dimensions of your viv in designing an ideal hardscape.


Yeah I wish there was a way to actually pick out the branches like you would in person. I went to a reptile expo the other week and they had tons of cool branches there for cheap. Unfortunately at the time, I didn't know I'd end up getting dart frogs until I saw someone selling them and that's when I really started looking into it more. Do you just look for cool wood outside and somehow sterilize it or just go to a local reptile shop to pick out wood? On the topic of filling in negative space, is there a decent way to add cork bark ledges or something without having it built into some fancy elaborate background? Im just going to use the default background that comes with the exo terra, but am not opposed to trying to slightly modify it and sticking things to it with silicone.



Socratic Monologue said:


> I'm not a fan of "Plant kit for 24x18x18 - $88", though it is the easiest and (up front, anyway) likely cheapest option. The plants in those 'kits' aren't always the best choices for darts -- e.g. you'll likely get a fern in there that terribs will mash to bits. It is more complicated, and possibly more expensive, to learn about why which plants are good with which species of dart, but you won't have to replace them because they weren't appropriate to being with, or outgrow the viv in a year, or are just a waste of space in a viv that really, really needs to be used effectively for such large and active frogs. Whatever you do, learn about bleach dipping plants (from any source) before planting -- it'll save you a tear down in the future to get rid of the slugs or flatworms or heebie jeebie monsters or whatever.


Interesting. What would you say are the best plants for terribs? I don't love the idea of getting plants that wont be able to actually use or end up squishing to bits.




FrogPrince said:


> If you looking to really save costs, yes the above is overkill but some can easily be done at a later date.


True, but the main things I want to get right the first time are the actual enclosure, drainage/barrier/substate/litter layers, plants, and filling in the negative space. Seems like those would be the hardest to go back and change. The SD light on the other hand I think I'll not get at first and just find a cheaper hardware store LED or something. And for me, saran wrap wouldn't cut it. Not that there's anything wrong with it and that people don't do things a different way, but this will likely be in my living room and get lots of attention by people that come over so I want it to look as sleek as possible.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fishingguy12345 said:


> You don't need the fancy screen kits. All you need to do is cover the stock screen with glass inserts and leave a gap at the back.


The problem with this is the screen isn't fly proof. (I realize some just don't care. When I had a room full of frogs, I didn't care either). Agreed you don't need an almost $100 screen insert. You can make those window screen vents and paint them black to make them look nicer. There's nothing visually unappealing to them providing you don't screw it up.



fishingguy12345 said:


> You can go with a light that would cost about 1/3 of the SD light. I use Nicrew aquarium lights and they work just fine. For a tank that size the light I'd use would cost about $35-40 max.


Agree here. Nicrew are very good lights. I'm getting excellent plant growth with them.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JasonE said:


> The problem with this is the screen isn't fly proof. Agreed you don't need an almost $100 screen inserts. You can make those window screen vents and paint them black to make them look nicer. There's nothing visually unappealing to them providing you don't screw it up


I always forget that other people care a lot more about fruit fly proofing their tanks than I do. My frogs are in a dedicated frog room and I've never had any fruit flies get out of the frog room despite not worrying a ton about fruit fly proofing my tanks. 

You can always glue mosquito mesh to the stock screen and then use glass inserts over top.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I always forget that other people care a lot more about fruit fly proofing their tanks than I do. My frogs are in a dedicated frog room and I've never had any fruit flies get out of the frog room despite not worrying a ton about fruit fly proofing my tanks.
> 
> You can always glue mosquito mesh to the stock screen and then use glass inserts over top.


haha I edited my post because of that. When I had a full room of frogs I didn't care about fruit fly escapes. They died under the racks and I just vacuumed them up when I did maintenance.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The screen on top is the least of the fly proofing worries -- the door gaps and under door vent are wide open to FFs. 

If someone is concerned about loose FFs, going right to an InSitu is the option that makes by far the most sense, IMO.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

BlueJohn said:


> Still on the fence about culturing my own fruit flies and springtails, but Ill give it some more thought.


Once you find out how beat up they get in shipping, the thinking process becomes more clear. 



BlueJohn said:


> On the topic of filling in negative space, is there a decent way to add cork bark ledges or something without having it built into some fancy elaborate background?


These aren't exactly terribilis friendly, but the basic idea -- bunch of wood screwed together, set into viv -- can be adapted for any species (use bulkier wood, basically):









InSitu Amazonias


I built these up to give a couple of my Ranitomeya bigger digs. Just the hardscapes: A little more close up on one; substrate is Seachem Flourite (I like this more as a viv base than in a planted tank, I think), and a top layer of calcium clay: I siliconed the ghostwood to the glass...




www.dendroboard.com





Spending a couple hours just browsing build threads/viv photos here gives a lot of good ideas, and reading through to the end of the thread can be instructive on what not to do, as rebuild reports are sometimes included.


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## skArts (Oct 11, 2020)

If you plan to add any epiphytes such as orchids to your tank later on, it's useful to have unmilled sphagnum for mounting


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> The screen on top is the least of the fly proofing worries -- the door gaps and under door vent are wide open to FFs.
> 
> If someone is concerned about loose FFs, going right to an InSitu is the option that makes by far the most sense, IMO.


Yeah. If you're going for fruit fly proof you're going to have to line the under-door vent with some no-see-um mesh. Luckily exo-terra made it easy to get that piece off on the new models.

I don't have any experience with InSitu so I can't comment. They didn't have what I considered an adequate size for a cost I was willing to pay so I went with exo-terra. For the size you are thinking I probably would have gone with them.

Also, there was a thread on these and someone said they had to do a lot of mods. Maybe that user was going for something very specific that requires more mods than the average hobbyist would need. Again, no experience, so just research before you settle on one or the other.



skArts said:


> If you plan to add any epiphytes such as orchids to your tank later on, it's useful to have unmilled sphagnum for mounting


Sphagnum is really a requirement for this hobby. I use it for froglet bins, orchid mounting, stuffing cracks in viv backgrounds. I recently did a plant growout tank with a cork mosaic, which requires a lot of sphagnum. You can get a small bail for cheap on amazon.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Once you find out how beat up they get in shipping, the thinking process becomes more clear.


Once I have a "frog room" to grow the cultures then I think it will be clear  Right now the only places I could store fruit flies and springtails are in my kitchen cabinets OR if I get a viv stand with built-in cabinet.



Socratic Monologue said:


> These aren't exactly terribilis friendly, but the basic idea -- bunch of wood screwed together, set into viv -- can be adapted for any species (use bulkier wood, basically):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man, that is one beautiful viv. I hadn't even heard of insitu before. I may end up ditching the exo terra in favor of the Amazonia, especially if it'll contain fruit flies better. $415 doesn't seem unreasonable considering it already included LED light, vents, and air circulation fans built in. Im a little confused about the drainage though... is false bottom still used? Does it _require_ continual drainage into a bucket or something? Im very very interested in this viv now so any info on it would be great.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I don't have one, but from what I've seen/read You essentially don't need a drainage layer, the sloped bottom accomplishes that for you. Yes, you would have it set to drain into a bucket all the time, but you could buy a drain valve to allow you to control when it drains.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

BlueJohn said:


> Once I have a "frog room" to grow the cultures then I think it will be clear  Right now the only places I could store fruit flies and springtails are in my kitchen cabinets OR if I get a viv stand with built-in cabinet.


Negative my friend. Fruit flies require a day/night cycle. If you keep them in a cabinet or closet they will fail within a week.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> but you could buy a drain valve to allow you to control when it drains.


I wouldn't do this. There isn't really enough reservoir in the viv. Straight into a bucket is best.

No, no false bottom or drainage layer is used. 

I have two Amazonias, am getting a third soon, and hope not do use any more ExoTerras. Exos are fine, but once you've had nice stuff it is really hard to go back.

Check out the vendor's section here for a promo code. 



JasonE said:


> Negative my friend. Fruit flies require a day/night cycle. If you keep them in a cabinet or closet they will fail within a week.


There are lots of reports here of cxing the dark with decent results. I'm not recommending it, but the FFs won't die in a week.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I wouldn't do this. There isn't really enough reservoir in the viv. Straight into a bucket is best.
> 
> No, no false bottom or drainage layer is used.
> 
> ...


Weird. Everything I have read or been told over the years says fruit flies need a light and dark circle. Well then I need to stop worrying about light not reaching my cultures in my office.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

JasonE said:


> Negative my friend. Fruit flies require a day/night cycle. If you keep them in a cabinet or closet they will fail within a week.


This forum is getting more and more useful every day. Haha. I was hoping to keep the flies out of sight but I guess not.



Socratic Monologue said:


> I wouldn't do this. There isn't really enough reservoir in the viv. Straight into a bucket is best.
> 
> No, no false bottom or drainage layer is used.


Alright, just so Im perfectly clear... the amazonia, 1 lb of Horticultural Charcoal for the trough then 1 lb for the rest of the base, then substrate barrier, then 3 lbs of ABG mix? And the water reservoir and plumbing hose is all you need to drain? I really like this.



Socratic Monologue said:


> Check out the vendor's section here for a promo code.


If there was any doubt before, I am definitely getting this viv now 😀 Though I do wish their stands were a little cheaper. I've got to find a stand for this now with a cabinet to hide the water reservoir.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

BlueJohn said:


> This forum is getting more and more useful every day. Haha. I was hoping to keep the flies out of sight but I guess not.


Well according to @Socratic Monologue, people have been keeping flies in the dark. He says he doesn't recommend it but apparently they will still produce. When I came up in the hobby, I was told you flies had to have a day cycle. So maybe try one in the cabinet, and if your production sucks or it fails, you know not to do it.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

BlueJohn said:


> Yeah I wish there was a way to actually pick out the branches like you would in person. I went to a reptile expo the other week and they had tons of cool branches there for cheap. Unfortunately at the time, I didn't know I'd end up getting dart frogs until I saw someone selling them and that's when I really started looking into it more. Do you just look for cool wood outside and somehow sterilize it or just go to a local reptile shop to pick out wood? On the topic of filling in negative space, is there a decent way to add cork bark ledges or something without having it built into some fancy elaborate background? Im just going to use the default background that comes with the exo terra, but am not opposed to trying to slightly modify it and sticking things to it with silicone.


I buy my Manzanita on Etsy if I'm not getting it somewhere in person. There are a couple vendors that I like to use who show photos and dimensions of the actual pieces they're selling - one is located only an hour and a half away from me so I even get next-day delivery with regular USPS shipping lol.

For adding ledges, you can silicone them to the back and sides of the vivarium. If you're keeping the stock background you can probably carve a flat spot in it to help stick something to (although I personally like replacing the foam background, even if it's with just a plain flat cork background or with the silicone-and-peat-moss method. Cork mosaic is my favorite method but more time consuming and you have to buy the cork flats).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JasonE said:


> Weird. Everything I have read or been told over the years says fruit flies need a light and dark circle. Well then I need to stop worrying about light not reaching my cultures in my office.


Well, check the archives. Lots of people say it works fine, some who've tried both say normal day-night is better for production. I'd go normal day-night just to eliminate goofy variables, but I didn't stumble over anything that suggests flies will absolutely fail in the dark. 

There are a lot of little tricks and tips for FF cxing -- best to read up on it a bunch before wasting a bunch of media. Cxing your own is a no-brainer though, unless you've run out of matches to light your money on fire.

Also, read all the InSitu threads here before you get your credit card out. Details, details.


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## Christine86 (Feb 4, 2021)

JasonE said:


> Negative my friend. Fruit flies require a day/night cycle. If you keep them in a cabinet or closet they will fail within a week.


Maybe I'm lucky but I keep mine in a closet and they are doing fine! 



Socratic Monologue said:


> The screen on top is the least of the fly proofing worries -- the door gaps and under door vent are wide open to FFs.
> 
> If someone is concerned about loose FFs, going right to an InSitu is the option that makes by far the most sense, IMO.


Or don't feed to much FF 🤷‍♀️. Don't want to be a "know it all" but I've an Exo - Terra without any mods to make it FF proof, and no escapees. I simply feed what they can eat in let say 10-20 minutes or so


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Since this post I’ve think I’ve gone a full 360 degrees… starting out with expensive stuff, then seeking out ways to save money, but now I’m convinced on getting an insitu Amazonia which is actually a little more expensive than before once I factor in the stone background 😂 I also think I’m going to get background material, plants, and wood from NEHERP since it seems to be more descriptive of what it will actually look like and be used for and you can list what species it will be for and they’ll take that into consideration


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'm curious what @Fahad thinks about an Amazonia for terribilis, and how to landscape it. I'm not sure the stone will be too useful. (?)

At any rate, before you hit 'buy', make sure you're on the right track with the species you're planning for. Not just the hardscape materials (like you've mentioned) but the little details you may not have stumbled on yet (for example, temperature is an issue that keep some people from keeping terribs). This isn't supposed to come off as condescending, just helpful, and I apologize if it comes off wrong.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

I’m not hitting ‘buy’ likely until December. I really like to make sure I know what I’m doing before I jump in, haha. If the rocks with ghost wood aren’t beneficial I can always just do cork bark and ghost wood instead, or something else entirely depending what is best.
And what’s different about the terribilis temperature?everything I’ve read keeps saying high 60s up to mid 70s. My thermostat stays at 74 max during the summer and 70 during winter so I foresee any problems there unless I am missing something?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Hey @BlueJohn -- so I keep and breed *a lot* of terribilis. Mint, Yellow, Blackfoot Orange ... here's what I've found:

There are people who will tell you they've kept P. terribilis without issue at 80 degrees -- while theoretically possible that's a danger zone because the temperature itself doesn't take into account other factors such as condition of the frogs, duration of temperature, frog interaction, evaporative cooling, etc. etc. -- so I never recommend going over 77 degrees _*at most*_. This gives you a safety margin. Keep in mind the temperature inside a vivarium is typically between 2 and 4 degrees higher than the ambient temperature of the room -- some get warmer.

Terribilis do heat stress very easily compared to some other dart frogs and it can be fatal.

As for enclosure size, for some strange reason this remains a somewhat contentious topic. I absolutely love the In Situ products and have two Altos myself, but I would never keep terribilis in those tanks for the long term due to their propensity for explosive movement. A healthy terribilis is a strong, athletic frog that sometimes takes powerful flying leaps. I've seen them clear 30-36 inches with ease. The 3 current offerings from In Situ simply aren't long enough.

Their adult size overall in terms of bulk also makes me uncomfortable keeping them in that footprint for long. You could, and they'd live, but I don't think the keeper or the frog would get the optimal experience from those dimensions.

Minimum footprint I'd use is 36" x 18" and minimum height at 24". Mine climb 36" high almost daily and would likely go higher.

If you want to stay with In SItu I'd either wait for their big Orinoco model to become available, or choose a smaller, less aggro (LOL seriously) species of dart frog.

I keep some terribilis in 36" x 18" x 36" tanks currently and while they're sufficient, I'm actually moving up to 48" tanks for the little monsters before the end of the year.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

@Fahad Thanks for the tips. Even if the viv was 4 degrees warmer than ambient temperature I’ll be at 77 during the hottest part of summer, so I think I’m safe there. I’m likely finishing my basement in a few years so it’ll be cooler down there so Ill move them down there once it’s all done. At that time anyways I was thinking of getting a tinc so maybe the tinc can inherit the amazonia (after being cleaned) and then the terribs can move into the larger tank? Would the terribs be okay in the Amazonia for 2 years or so?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

If I kept a terribilis in an Amazonia I'd do it for a year at the very most -- it would reach close to adult size at that point and outgrow it. Possibly less than a year if we're talking multiple terribilis.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

I’ve seen people keeping them in 36x18, the Amazonia is 24x22 which is less than 1 square foot difference of floor space. Is it just extra length that is preferred for mega-jumps?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The footprint of the Amazonia is 22 x 16 (on the outside; the base flares out a bit, but then so does the Exo). The height is 24.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

BlueJohn said:


> I’ve seen people keeping them in 36x18, the Amazonia is 24x22 which is less than 1 square foot difference of floor space. Is it just extra length that is preferred for mega-jumps?


The difference may only be 1 square foot but it's a difference of more than 20%. There's more than 20% more floorspace in the 36x18" versus the 24x22"


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> The footprint of the Amazonia is 22 x 16 (on the outside; the base flares out a bit, but then so does the Exo). The height is 24.


Oh I didn’t realize their dimensions were length x height x width instead of the more common length x width x height. Hmm… I’ll have to see what the price will be for the larger 48x24x48 that comes out soon and if there’ll be a discount code like there is for the Amazonia.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Oh we're talking terribilis?

Skip the Insitu. The size you need for terribilis is going to blow your budget out of the water.

I agree with everything @Fahad said. They need a minimum of 36" of length. If I were going to do terribilis it would be in a 36x36". They will spend a lot of time just chilling or hopping slowly around, but they are a big pudgy ball of energy. They will go from one end to the other in one or two jumps when they want to move. If given a proper background (multiple substrate levels, large logs for climbing) they'll use every inch of a 36x36 exo. And the 36" gives a better chance of keeping temps properly regulated. 

If you want to go insitu you should probably consider a different frog.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

JasonE said:


> ... big *pudgy* ball of energy.


I'll have you know my terribilis are really into crossfit, yoga and combat sports. My frogs are _shredded_, bro!

Only half joking. What I may see on any given day:

Climbing (inclines, complicated routes up thinner branches and vines, and straight vertical up backgrounds)
Wrestling (sporadic hierarchical stuff, generally brief)
Wild sprints around the tank
Energetic foraging high up and under the leaf litter
Vertical leaps to capture prey as high as 30" over their heads
While they have things like thicker logs and stumps to navigate and perch on, they'll traverse vines and branches thinner than their own bodies. 

They may sport small bellies as frogs do, but overall I tend to keep my terribilis a little leaner and meaner than some of the butterballs I've seen online.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

I’ll see how much the larger insitu will be when they release it, but I guess I’ll start looking at other species too. Here’s the reasons I really like the terrib:

-Boldest of the bold

-Social interactions between each other

-Very bright color, you could probably tell it’s poisonous if you knew absolutely nothing about frogs

-very active and interesting to observe

- I can buy just 2 without worrying if both will be female or both will be male and not end up fighting. Seems most other PDF only do well in pairs, but since they are unsexed when you buy them it seems you’d have to buy 3 or 4 and then have to sell or get a new viv for the other 2 once a pair emerges.

I’ve looked a bit and I like the look of Tinc azureus, tinc Patricia, and tinc Robertus. What’s the species with the red head in the top left of the website banner (shown below)? 

And what are these different frogs behavior like compared to terribilis?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

That's a _Ranitomeya fantastica. _

You might give a thought to _Dendrobates leucomelas _as well -- excellent first frogs, and they hit most of your bullet points above.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Wow the fantastica looks amazing. Too bad it’s so shy and lightning fast, haha. If I can’t get a viv big enough for a terrib yet, then I think the top contenders right now are Tinc Robertus, Galac yellow, and Ranitomeya variabilis. Though right now it’s based mostly on pattern and the little I have read so far about them. I’ll keep researching.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Very seriously take a look at D. leucomelas. They're a riot in a group, and remain one of my all-time favourite frogs. Smaller but not too small, pleasant call, stunning, contrasting colours.


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## Vargoje3 (Oct 5, 2020)

My first group was 5 Terribilis in a 36x18x20. I've had nothing but problems with the Terribilis. Like you I thought Terribilis was the frog I wanted due to size and boldness. I've had issues with foot rot even though I have tons of leaf litter and only mist once a day for 20 seconds. One is recovering but the other is not with vet help (350$ for a 80 dollar frog). They are bold but almost never move unless your feeding them. As froglets I never saw them eat, which caused me to stress a lot. 

I got a group of 5 leucs about 4 months ago. Zero issues. As froglets I could see them feeding all over the tank. They are bold and only hide when I open the glass doors. Very active frogs compared to my Terribilis and use all 24" of the height of my viv. Looking back leucs should have been my first dart frogs.

Also after retrofitting one exo and two Zillow enclosures it deff would have been cheaper in the long run and easier to just get some in situ tanks but they wouldn't have been big enough for the number of darts I keep. I also learned a lot doing it the hard way you could say.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

When I do initially showed my wife the leuc she said she didn’t really like that pattern. But there’s gotta be a reason 3 people in a row are recommending them, haha. So I’ll give it one more shot.

@Vargoje3 good to know about the terribs, especially as first frogs. Thanks for the heads up. And yeah after all the mods and conversions and extras added to an exo it ends up being practically the same price as the insitu, and the continual draining sounds way better than siphoning out the drainage layer.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

I will fourth the leucs! They're my frog of choice for starting off (also in the process of getting my first darts, just having problems with supplies) and every account I've read says they're rather hardy, and good for enjoying that group behavior that makes terribilis appealing. And there are different kinds of leucs, as well! Standard, fine spot, banded, blue foot, green foot, etc. I'm sure you can find something that catches both of your eyes.


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## cjwhitsett (Mar 7, 2020)

Not to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, but if you would like to use an Amazonia I would give some thought to Ranitomeya variabilis. You could keep a small group rather comfortably in an Amazonia whereas you could keep (or merely get away with) a pair at most of the larger species. I consider myself to be very much a novice (hopefully a well-researched one, though!) and have so far found my group to be pretty easy. And bolder than I was expecting, though YMMV. Nothing prepares you for how tiny they are when you first see them, though. And they’re on the larger end size wise for the genus!

On the topic of leucs. If you like all the great attributes of leucs but aren’t crazy about the standard variety, one of the other morphs may be for you. I don’t keep any, but I think the banded ones are pretty fly.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

cjwhitsett said:


> Not to throw a monkey wrench into the mix, but if you would like to use an Amazonia I would give some thought to Ranitomeya variabilis. You could keep a small group rather comfortably in an Amazonia whereas you could keep (or merely get away with) a pair at most of the larger species. I consider myself to be very much a novice (hopefully a well-researched one, though!) and have so far found my group to be pretty easy. And bolder than I was expecting, though YMMV. Nothing prepares you for how tiny they are when you first see them, though. And they’re on the larger end size wise for the genus!


Funny you mention that because the Variabilis is actually in my top 2 just for that reason, haha. I’ll either end up with 3-4 Variabilis or 2 azureus in the amazonia. I think the biggest factor to decide between them will be seeing which pattern my son likes most. I know I’ll enjoy either one but I want to make sure he will really like them too.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

BlueJohn said:


> Funny you mention that because the Variabilis is actually in my top 2 just for that reason, haha. I’ll either end up with 3-4 Variabilis or 2 azureus in the amazonia. I think the biggest factor to decide between them will be seeing which pattern my son likes most. I know I’ll enjoy either one but I want to make sure he will really like them too.


Depending on your sons age it might not matter too much tbh. Most kids think dart frogs (and other types as well) are amazing regardless of species. My daughter absolutely loves our frogs (she's only 2) and het favourite are the mossy frogs. Which she nowadays almost spots more quickly than us.


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