# IS THIS TRUE?



## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

I have a buddy that told me that the P. terribs are a VERY high maintenance frog, as far as sanitizing the tank almost on a daily bases. How difficult is it for you all?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I have heard that about the froglets, and/or the eggs, but juvies to adults can be kept in a natural Viv just like any other PDF.
The thing that may make them trickier is that they do not do well in temps much over 80F.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

Thanks, that helps my decision along. As long as I keep a close eye on the temp, everything else should run smoother then I was told.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Terribilis froglets thru adults are the hardiest dart frog out there. I had mine at 80f for extended periods while breeding w/out problems(during the day), although I don`t recommend it. They eat large food for their size and can go longer than most w/out food.
I think your referring to the jewels of the rainforest book stating terribilis froglets are sensative to dirt in their morph tanks?


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

No, it was a friend that told me this. I do have that book though. "dancing frogs" made mention how care must be taken while they are young. I've never had terribs before, and since my friend had raised them for quite some time, and noted how sensitive they were, I figured it was accurate.
I am very happy to here that they are so hardy, and that they eat larger food, and are a little more durable then most other darts.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ve been breeding the mints for 10 years and the orange and yellow most recently. 
If I got rid of all types of darts but one it would be terribilis. They aren`t the easiest to breed but they`ll take the smallest crickets that are available at most pet shops, they are hardy and do well in groups. They are always out in the open for viewing. Mine literally jump out at the clear cricket container trying to grab 1/4 inch crickets out of what looks to them like bugs hovering midair. I`ve wiggled my fingertip behind logs and they`ve tried to eat that thinking it was a bug. They are voracious eaters from the day they leave the water. They are good parents, getting clutches by me all the time and dropping them in the water feature.
I just wish we had more than 1 bloodline of each in the states. I collected offspring from all the mint breeders 10 years ago. I found out later they were all breeding animals that came from the same import as mine, which were offspring from the same pair as mine.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

Does this mean incest? Any abnormalities or defects?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Yes, that means everyone is related in the mint family. I believe it is the same for the orange and yellow also.
I haven`t witnessed any abnormalities related to inbreeding.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

Well, that sucks. Eventually that will probably pose a problem... Right? I'm glad to hear there appears to be no adverse side effects. I can see why you feel the way you do with this breed.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I find the "sanitizing the tank almost on a daily basis" an interesting tidbit, because that is incredibly stressful on the frog and is not generally a good idea to do longer than you have to (like for quarentine). I've known these frogs, and their relatives the bicolor to be very hardy frogs, and don't know where the excess in sanitizing bit is coming from? Other than getting successful eggs from some frogs, I've never known them to be problematic.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

Interesting point. I never thought about that. I guess the stress level would skyrocket. I still can't figure why my buddy would say this.
It looks like the majority rules. That's why I enjoy talking with you all. Sence can be made. And Perhaps, there are people either misinformed and/or over paranoid. Thanks.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Maybe that`s why he`s having such a problem.
I`ve produced over 1000 terribilis and they have the lowest death rate of all the frogs I`ve ever bred. They are harder to breed than most. Phyllobates people generally have a problem breeding except vittatus.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

True. I'm guessing that even though Terribilis is difficult to breed in captivity they will if conditions are right? Or does is reflect from randomly picking the right one(s), like hitting the lottery?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I don`t think I`ve been that lucky or I`d play the lottery more. :lol: 
I have successfully bred as many pairs as I`ve got. The lottery is getting the right sexes. Mints are pretty even but yellow and orange I have had a hell of a time finding females. I`ve grown up 14 oranges and still had to trade for a female. 3 males out of 4 on the yellow.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Aaron my Oranges are doing fantastic, they are feeding on flies and small crickets from petsmart already, are Terribs faster growers than the other dart frogs?? I cant get over how fast these guys grow and get color, they are almost completely solid orange already??, and ive only had them for two months... i sent you a PM a while back asking how old you think they are?, i was guessing about 5-6 months guessing you shipped them to me being 3-4 months? What else can i feed them, ive givin them phoenix worms, both types of ff's, and crickets, i think they laugh at me when u put in springs... do you feed yous any thing else?? Anyways I Love THESE FROGS, starting to become an all time favorite of my collection so far...


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I definately would not consider them "very high maintainence". However, having raised them for a couple years now, I don't consider them a beginner species and think of them more as an intermediate. The only reasons I think they should be elevated are because, they are sensitive to temperature and can be a little more challenging to breed. Temperature is a biggie. There are far less sensitive species out there. E. Anthonyi, SI comes to mind. Regarding ease of breeding, I think a beginner species should breed easily. A beginner should be able to choose a species that they can have a high probability of being successful with in all aspects of the frog's life cycle.

Just my 2 cents...


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

That sucks. The yellow morph would be the one I'd want. I heard that there might be two different variations (morphs) of the yellow; Gold and yellow. I'm not certain what to think of this.
Man, since captive breeding has been underway for quite some time now, I ponder if all darts like Leucs, azureus, tincs, now suffer from this drought of fresh blood, forcing inbreeding??
One thing I've noticed for example, is I've seen so many various shades in the azureus, from a light sky blue to a deep purple, and my personal favorite azure blue. It's being argued that there may be different morphs. But could it be captive breeding for a long period of time fades the colors? Or perhaps age? I relize that paprika inhances the colors for some. Not all need this.
I'm sorry for throwing more questions out there, but I figure if I didn't I'd forget. 
Thanks


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

All we can do is try, I don`t see anyone bringing in wc terribilis anytime soon. 
As w/ the azureus they are the best chance for diversity in blood. There were many bloodlines out there. I think random breeding of non siblings will keep a good amt of diversity in azureus.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

shawn13 said:


> That sucks. The yellow morph would be the one I'd want. I heard that there might be two different variations (morphs) of the yellow; Gold and yellow. I'm not certain what to think of this.


There is only one line of yellow terribilis in the U.S. hobby today. If they did not originate from the ones Mark P. brought in they are not yellows. 

Rich


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

Do you think that there are a variety of Azures morphs? If this is the case then hybrodizing had taken place.
Maybe people were confusing the yellows with bicolors. Which it is known that bicolors have been sold under the false pretenses that they were terribs. I imagine now, through more breeding and personal interaction this has become a more seldom occurance of mistaken identity.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

shawn13 said:


> Do you think that there are a variety of Azures morphs? If this is the case then hybrodizing had taken place.
> Maybe people were confusing the yellows with bicolors. Which it is known that bicolors have been sold under the false pretenses that they were terribs. I imagine now, through more breeding and personal interaction this has become a more seldom occurance of mistaken identity.


There are not a variety of azureus "morphs". There are a variety of tincs, and a number of breeders have selectively bred azureus for qualities such as "fine spot" and "sky blue" which is on the opposite (but not a great thing either) end of the hybrid scale.
Sean S. was at one time selling a frog that was labeled, back and forth, between "golden phylobates" and "terribilis" for some time. Until it was found to not be close to a terribilis . I think he now has them labeled "golden phylobates" again, if they are still on his site. I have heard of nobody mixing up that morph with any others. The yellows at that time were not being produced in any numbers and I have heard of no mixing of the questionable Sean S. animals and the yellow terribilis now in the U.S. hobby.

Rich


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

Thanks for the clearification. I surmize, we find certain qualities in the variation of Chromatophore e.g. patterns, shades of colors, and is through matching up the paired (parents) frogs by personal preference of specifics desired, thus, passing down inherited traits to the offspring in the ancestrial chart? Just hypothesizing. For years I've been wondering that.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Shawn, there are "golden" bicolor that were originally brought in as terribilis, and their true species was up in the air for a good while (last I heard they were bicolor)... you'll still occassionally hear them called "terribilis morph". This is what the frog looks like...










The yellow terribilis were never confused with these animals... 

There are NO MORPHS of azureus. They are a morph of tinc, and show variation... mostly in size and amount of spotting. Most of the differences you see in coloration have to do with them being photos - not frogs in hand. There is still some variation, but nothing all that extreme, and the animals typically more violet in color are animals with supplemented diets (paprika/naturose) but they fade back to blue if not fed that continuously (typical of tincs). I'd love to see the thread where this is argued so we can go in and stop that misinformation before it spreads. I don't see how a variety of azureus morphs would mean hybridizing has taken place? They are just a naturally variable population... We tend to breed the variation out of our frogs if anything.

There have been many threads about the detriments of how many of these animals are bred, so I'd look into that rather than opening that can of worms in this thread and getting off topic (or start a new thread if searching the site doesn't give you the answers you were looking for). Most of the "inbreeding" has been more inadvertant (sibling to sibling because you bought a bunch of froglets from one person and raised them up) than purposeful, or meant in a "good" way (breeding to preserve what the frog should look like in nature by breeding like with like and accidently breeding out variation). Like the azureus... slightly different color and pattern, they must be different, so lets not breed them together! Er... not so much.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

Yea, I'm familiar with this misconception of the bicolored. To the untrained eye probably fairly easy to confuse. 
It wasn't until recently that I've found the Azureus to fall under the Tinc group. Interesting. I found this under Doyle's Dart Den; "Morphs: There is little variation in this species. Some animals tend to a darker blue while other have lighter color of blue. Additionally the size of the black spot varies in size. I have seen some photos from Europe that showed violet colored animals. Currently, it is not know if these are color morphs or just individual color variations." Also, under wikipedia and other sources the arguement that it is debated wheather or not the azureus falls under the Tinctorius group. This is an excert under wikipedia; "Some believe them to be a morph of Dendrobates tinctorius, and not a separate species." 
I seen a photo of wild Azureus and they were a faded light blue toward the sides of the belly. I agree, probably some repercussions from constant breeding.
Thanks, I'll use that faucet in which you recommend. Sorry for getting waaay off topic.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Azureus with smaller, and reduced spotting show more of the powder blue and appear overall lighter, while animals with more, and larger spotting show less of it and appear darker. The "violet" animals were not just in Europe, but in the US too... in Europe due to field sweepings, and here due to addition of peprika in the diet. They faded to "typical" azureus color without these in the diet... even tho azureus traditionally don't have much "red", this difference in color is why I supplement all my frogs with naturose, not just the most obviously needy. It was also partially the photography (lighting) involved. Azureus can have the powder blue on the belly too, particluarly large adult females... typical of tincs with blue netting on the legs - not really a constant breeding deal.

The Wikipedia article is written by hobbyests I understand, and hobbyests tend to be a little behind the taxonomic times  The tinc vs. species debate has been going for over 10 years, and there have recently been a slurry of genetic works done with this species that has led taxonomists to accept their tinc species status. There is all the conservation work with them that may go down the crapper too because of this, so some like to hold onto the old taxonomy a little longer for politics too.

And if there is a moderator reading this, I put the ftp URL in the bicolor photo above, and forgot to change it to http... the correct URL should be "http://kero-kero.net/AZDRFrogDay/bicolor.jpg" if you could change that for me...


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

How is naturose working out? Good I take it.
Yea, wikipedia is a gathering of data from radom people. I would think error could occur. At least you all are current.
I didn't know that the spot sizes determine the variation of shades. Interesting to know. 
I was told that only certain frogs, depending on color, need paprika to bring, or rather, keep the original color.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Here you go, Corey:











Shawn, if the frog has a lot of iridiphores (like imitator), Naturose won't really do much for the color, and is especially helpful in enhancing reds/yellows/oranges. I supplement all my frogs with Naturose as a matter of best practice because of the micronutrients contained in Naturose in addition to astaxanthin.



> I didn't know that the spot sizes determine the variation of shades.


I wouldn't say that the spot sizes are _determining_ the variation. Rather, the density of spotting gives the illusion of a paler, less vibrant blue. A bit of an optical illusion, really.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I was trying not to waste space by posting it again, instead trying to get a mod to fix the original post 



> I wouldn't say that the spot sizes are determining the variation. Rather, the density of spotting gives the illusion of a paler, less vibrant blue. A bit of an optical illusion, really.


Bingo. The frogs don't have different amounts of the pale blue, but smaller, less numorous spots show more of the pale blue, making the whole frog seem paler.

Most of the thumbnails seem to have the majority of their coloration comprised of iridiphores... I've supplemented my thumbnails (imis/inters) in the past with little noticable affect. It's probably on the lines of azureus... won't change it a huge amount, but might influence it a touch, and the influence is more noticable under certain lights.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

Thank you both. Now I can actually grasp why the pale blue appears to come out in some. This question has been haunting me for along, looong time.
Beautiful photo.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

And it probably makes it alot easier to supplement them all instead of randomly. Although it may not inhance everyfogs color, it at least helps improve the overall health in them. 
I finally got it...it's the density of spots. That makes since. And would also explain why the frogs in the same locality can seem to vary. As we know, mountains usually seperate different morphs from each other inabling them from breeding. But in the Azureus situation, this isn't the case.
I guess the right lighting can change perspective.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

All the azureus basically live in a tiny little valley the size of a football field, mostly cut off from the rest of the species by tropical savannah. Definately not the case lol. Also, due to genetics and the geologic history of the population, some forms are vasty more variable where others are nearly identical... some of the crazy variable frogs have suffered from ice ages seperating them out and clashing them together and the mixed genetics make for some crazy variation. In times past, the azurues may have had a much larger range, with a more stable phenotype (look) but when squished into a tiny little space the interbreeding between all those animals caused variation normally spread out over and area appear more randomly in the population.


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