# Encouraging Tadpoles to Morph Out Bigger?



## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

Hi all. I've been lurking around here (and on a couple other frog boards) for a little while now preparing to get my first darts. I decided to start with tadpoles, which probably sounds nuts, but I'm 20+ years in the aquarium hobby and actually feel a lot more confident with the aquatic stage, because I "get" things like water quality, ph, tannins, etc.

I received my first 5 tadpoles (Dendrobates tinctorus "Patricia") a couple days ago; all arrived safely in the mail and are hanging out in their little deli cups, chomping on tadpole bites and Indian almond leaves. So far, so good.

As much as I want to see these little guys morph soon, I'd much rather be patient and have big, fat, healthy froglets that will be easier to care for and survive to be my pets for the next 12-15 years.

I've been researching for months, setting up for weeks to prepare, and the only thing I've read that seems to be recommended as a good way of morphing bigger froglets (which will be easier to feed and have a better survival rate...I'm shooting for 100% here), is community rearing.

However, there also seems to be a lot to indicate that tadpole mortality is appreciably higher (depending on the source you ask). I do have a bunch empty 1g to 5g aquariums that had previously been used for quarantine tanks and nano aquascapes and aquarium plant prop tanks, as well as both under-gravel and sponge filters (my HOB filters would definitely be too much flow/power), but I'm leery of risking the two smaller tadpoles being eaten or injured by the three larger ones.

Is there another way to get bigger morphs? Why do community tadpoles come out bigger?

Is it the water volume in community rearing tanks that makes the difference? The fact that big tanks with multiple tads get plants that in turn provide more yummy biofilm to chomp on? Because if that's the case I'm totally willing to set up a row of aquariums, and I already have a mountain of java moss and pearlweed that desperately needs to be trimmed back in my 20g that I could add in.

Are there other factors that can be used? Temperatures? The site I purchased from (Josh's Frogs) said warmer temps make for faster morph times, which makes me wonder if keeping them at the cooler end of their comfort range would grow them bigger. Foods? I'm feeding tadpole bites purchased with the babies, but I've seen a lot of threads that advocate Rephashi Soylent Green, and some that even recommend mixing supplements into it for maximum nutrition.

I just want to do what I can to get the healthiest young frogs possible, whether it's housing, food, or whatever.

(Oh, and I do already have a well-established culture of springtails for feeding when they first exit the water, and a source for fruit fly cultures so I can start some of those once they're getting ready to morph. I did read the site tadpole care sheet, and am currently using a jug of Spring Water, but am considering switching over slowly to aged treated tap, as my municipal source has very high calcium levels, which is a pain for my aquariums but seems to be a good preventative for SLS)


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

I think the changes you will see will be negligible in regards to morph size, and raising them communally will likely end up with a few casualties. Especially for your first ones, just be ready for when they morph out (as that is the most sensitive period). Keep springtails seeded wherever you are letting them morph out, and start feeding fruit flies right away. Tincs won't have any issue with fruit flies right off the bat though! Dust with a high quality Cal + D3 (Repashy or Dendrocare) every feeding and you should have healthy frogs!


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## Fred33 (Apr 14, 2012)

PersephonesChild said:


> Hello, I am raising Dendrobates in France for several years and after experimenting with several methods I will try to give you my results ... After free to you to test them or not, first the volume of the container influences the size of the tadpole, then the quantity of water and its quality (its parameters ...) and finally the food and the frequency of feeding.
> 
> Is there another way to get larger morphs? Why do community tadpoles come out bigger?
> - the best way to get large tadpoles is to raise them in a filtered aquarium with a filtered sponge filter supplied with air by a small pump, this allows you to feed more and more often by avoiding too high nitrite contents that slow down growth or kill the tadpole ... As for the quality of water I use a mixture of equal parts of spring water and rainwater, and from time to time I remineralize by adding a little green clay powder, which brings iron and calcium (among others ...), I have neither decoration nor aquatic plants, just dry oak leaves gleaned in the forest ...
> ...


 [/QUOTE]


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

Chris S said:


> I think the changes you will see will be negligible in regards to morph size, and raising them communally will likely end up with a few casualties. Especially for your first ones, just be ready for when they morph out (as that is the most sensitive period). Keep springtails seeded wherever you are letting them morph out, and start feeding fruit flies right away. Tincs won't have any issue with fruit flies right off the bat though! Dust with a high quality Cal + D3 (Repashy or Dendrocare) every feeding and you should have healthy frogs!


Being able to quickly move to fruit flies for the sake of being able to provide vitamin and mineral supplements is my big concern. If that variety is good about consistently morphing out big enough to immediately eating easily-dustable prey, then that makes me feel better. So much of the info I find is generalized for a broad range of species; it's a little more difficult to get info on a specific type.

I might still upgrade their individual cups to individual 1g and 2g tanks with sponge filters to help ensure water quality remains more stable though.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

PersephonesChild said:


> Being able to quickly move to fruit flies for the sake of being able to provide vitamin and mineral supplements is my big concern. If that variety is good about consistently morphing out big enough to immediately eating easily-dustable prey, then that makes me feel better. So much of the info I find is generalized for a broad range of species; it's a little more difficult to get info on a specific type.
> 
> I might still upgrade their individual cups to individual 1g and 2g tanks with sponge filters to help ensure water quality remains more stable though.


If you are feeding good quality food to the tadpoles, there is a degree of leniency in regards to getting them eating dusted prey. To be honest, I believe that SLS either exists or does not once they have morphed, no supplements in the world will reverse that.


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

Chris S said:


> If you are feeding good quality food to the tadpoles, there is a degree of leniency in regards to getting them eating dusted prey. To be honest, I believe that SLS either exists or does not once they have morphed, no supplements in the world will reverse that.


I'm not concerned about SLS development post-emergence, as the information I've found seems to indicate it starts with parent health and is subsequently affected by water and/or diet during tadpole development. That was why I was considering utilizing tap water, since mine is high in calcium, though it also contains elevated phosphorus, which I seem to recall can be counter-productive in calcium absorption, so I'll probably stick to jugged spring water for the time being as it's generally accepted as a safe source for tadpoles. 

My reason for concern about being able to supplement immediately when they begin to feed after tail absorption is because I want to avoid MBD and other deficiencies as they grow as froglets. I'm new to darts, but not to keeping tropical exotic pets, and early on in my journey with reptiles, I learned the hard way about calcium deficiency, resulting in a pet snake who had some permanent (though thankfully not crippling) bone abnormalities. Fortunately it was caught early enough that I was able to rectify husbandry, and he went on to live a long life in otherwise good health, but I always felt guilty for his bumps and ever so slightly odd appearance. It was a sad lesson that I never wish to repeat with my pets. Hence the questions and research. I love exotic animals, and have wanted darts for years, so I want to do my best to provide optimal care from the start. Unfortunately, as with so many things in life, we don't know what we don't know until we're in the middle of it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

PersephonesChild said:


> calcium deficiency, resulting in a pet snake who had some permanent (though thankfully not crippling) bone abnormalities.


That's unusual. Non-rodent-eating species?


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That's unusual. Non-rodent-eating species?


No, inability to maintain appropriate calcium levels in the blood due to vitamin D deficiency, because I wasn't supplying an additional source of vitamin D in the diet and was failing to provide UVB lighting in the enclosure. 

I didn't ask enough questions of the seller, and they were more interested in selling me a snake than educating a new owner. 

It was a major noob error that could have easily led to him dying or suffering serious quality of life issues if I had waited any longer to correct the source of the problem. I will be eternally grateful to the fantastic reptile department manager at the big chain shop near my home (not the place where I purchased the snake) for taking the time to listen and help when I came in asking what was making him "get bumpy" along his spine.

The only upshot of the whole experience was that I learned to try and get as much information as possible before branching into new species of pets, which I believe has contributed to later success with other animals, though in hindsight I wish I could have learned that lesson in a way that wasn't at the expense of my snake's welfare.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

That's fascinating- I've been on the snake side of the hobby much longer than the amphibian side, and I don't think I've heard of Vitamin D supplementation or UVB being a requirement for most snakes. What were you feeding at the time? Whole rodent prey _should_ be able to provide all the nutrients a snake needs, calcium included. Of course, very young rodents might not be as nutritious, given they're only on milk at that point, but I'm not sure how that might contribute.


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

ParrotAlex said:


> That's fascinating- I've been on the snake side of the hobby much longer than the amphibian side, and I don't think I've heard of Vitamin D supplementation or UVB being a requirement for most snakes. What were you feeding at the time? Whole rodent prey _should_ be able to provide all the nutrients a snake needs, calcium included. Of course, very young rodents might not be as nutritious, given they're only on milk at that point, but I'm not sure how that might contribute.


I was feeding pinkies, and noticed the problem just as I was switching to fuzzy mice.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

That would be very odd. Rodent eaters get sufficient D3 (and everything else) in the diet. I don't know any serious snake keepers who supplement rodent prey, even those snakes that stay on pinkies for very extended periods of time (I have a 3 year old kingsnake that won't eat furred mice, so has only ever eaten pinks/peach fuzzies; many of my offspring -- smaller colubrids -- stay on pinks for the better part of a year; many of my adults eat only hoppers which are still drinking milk almost exclusively). Providing UVB to rodent eating snakes is a very novel practice. Mader's vet guide does not recommend supplementing rodents, and explicitly skips discussing NSHP (nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism, the typical cause of MBD) in snakes as it virtually never occurs. Some snake species (_P. regius_) don't even maintain higher D3 levels with UVB.

One very common reason for bumps and kinks in snakes is inbreeding. These bumps aren't always as apparent at hatching/birth. 

I guess the reason this tangent is relevant is insofar as it might come to inform your dart keeping practices. Anecdotal recommendations (adding supplements to Soylent Green, for example) or extrapolating from experiences where N=1 can lead to less good results than following evidence -- which you clearly seem to be focused on, of course.


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

ParrotAlex said:


> That's fascinating- I've been on the snake side of the hobby much longer than the amphibian side, and I don't think I've heard of Vitamin D supplementation or UVB being a requirement for most snakes. What were you feeding at the time? Whole rodent prey _should_ be able to provide all the nutrients a snake needs, calcium included. Of course, very young rodents might not be as nutritious, given they're only on milk at that point, but I'm not sure how that might contribute.


There are certainly snakes, especially species who are nocturnal, or who live in places with significant tree canopy cover, who don't require UV. The snake in question was a corn, and while there is some debate on the absolute necessity of UVB for the species, the age of the snake (2 week old hatchling at purchase) and speed he was growing at (due to ill-advised power feeding) were almost definitely contributing to the problem. I also don't know what sort of health the mother was in when she clutched, though the discovery of mites on him after I got him home leads me to believe it probably wasn't totally optimal. The whole incident was a laundry list of what not to do when buying your first reptile.


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I guess the reason this tangent is relevant is insofar as it might come to inform your dart keeping practices. Anecdotal recommendations (adding supplements to Soylent Green, for example) or extrapolating from experiences where N=1 can lead to less good results than following evidence -- which you clearly seem to be focused on, of course.


That is the goal. I just want healthy tads that grow into healthy frogs, and I don't want suboptimal feeding or housing to be a cause of problems later. I've waited 20 years to get darts because previously I wasn't in a position to afford them or house them correctly, or didn't have the time to provide them appropriate care.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

In my experience, nothing makes dart tadpoles grow faster or larger than cannibalism. This, combined with the generally greater water volumes used in communal set-ups, and the increased ability for a larger body of water to disperse and dilute wastes to lower concentrations makes a big difference. Filtration and circulation can help maintain water quality, but regular (1-3X/week) water exchanges of 50% by volume can perform a similar function.
Diets that are higher in protein also seem to increase growth rates, but some care should be taken not to take this to an extreme degree, as it may be taxing on liver/kidneys. My typical tadpole feed mix consists of Omega One tropical flakes and bites, Repashy Soilent Green, Bottom Scratcher, and Bug Burger, as well as some live/dead fruit flies. There are many other products that are suitable, but those are the items that I keep on hand.
Temperatures also play a part, but higher temp ranges (75*F and above), while they should result in faster morph times, have seemed to result in smaller neonates for me.


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

Since it's so widely advocated (and I have fish who would totally eat what's left once the tadpoles have morphed), I'll probably grab some Soylent Green. 

On hand, aside from the Josh's Frogs tadpole pellets and Indian almond leaves that I ordered with the tadpoles, I also have fish flakes, fish granules, spirulina wafers (though those seem to be less advisable), and a number of nano-sized frozen fish foods like baby brine shrimp, cyclops and daphnia.

It sounds like the flakes and sinking pellets would be a worthwhile addition to their diet rotation. What about the frozen stuff? If no one has tried it, I won't go mucking about in unknown territory, but the small invertebrate foods in particular seem like they might be good?


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