# Unexpected Frog Death



## TimrekWTF (Oct 19, 2008)

I posted a quick shot under my viv construction for a White's tree frog of a very sad occurence today. Poor Tim the WTF was found upside down in his water dish today. Only having had him here for two days I can help but feel responsible. He was alive before he got here and now......not so much. Water dish was less than an inch deep, ideal temps both day and night. Two pinhead crickets MIA presumed eaten. Very small guy for a whites, just a baby. Completely baffled at what could have happend. He was only handled just a small amount with clean damp hands. His viv misted twice daily with R/O water. Anyone else ever have problems with thier first frog? Would hate to have to hang up this hobby before I ever get started.


----------



## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Idk because I have never kept WTFs before, so maybe someone with more experience will chime in, but from what you said it sounds like maybe he had a disease or parasite before you got him.


----------



## TimrekWTF (Oct 19, 2008)

Going to return him to the pet store in a few minutes. Just got done boiling the water dish and piece of Modani wood. Took out all the sphagnum bedding. Trying to figure out how much more needs to go...hopefully thats it.


----------



## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

TimrekWTF,

I wouldn't give up just yet. The best thing to do is review everything and as Alex said it is very possible the frog had a disease or parasite even tho it looked healthy. That is the downfall of exotics. They aren't like a dog or cat you can take to the vet and find out they have some rare internal deformity (my dad ended up with a cockatiel that had an enlarged heart never knew it until the autopsy).

Having owned many animals and also having worked at a pet store that did alot of consultation work and medical assistance for exotics as we don't have a vet up here that does, here is my advice:

Review everything on how you kept the animal. Research quarentine and preventative measures for new amphibians. When I say review everything I litterally mean just that. From what water you used (think you said roi or so), to what size granule the substrate was, where were the crickets from, did you clean everything that went into the tank before putting it there (notice I did not say sterilize this is a matter of opinion), did you have anything in the tank you got from outside that wasn't sterilized, do you use any type of air born chemicals (air freshner / sanitizer), perfume (cologne)?

How is the ventilation on the tank could fresh air be exchanged? Here's one most people are afraid to ask.... do you or anyone in your house smoke? As for the handling I would say with most amphibians, with the exception of maybe an african pixie frog, they are more look don't touch even minimal handling can stress the frog forget the fact you may have the cleanest hands on earth.

I always tend to look at it this way: if something 500 times my size picked me up what would be my most likely response?

At any rate after you think of all that and research if there was anything that could have been wrong environmentally I would go for another try at it maybe get the frog from a different place than the last one and go through the quarentine / preventative testing (I think fecaling is available for all frogs but am not sure).

Keep in mind this is not from my personal experience as a dart frog keeper as I don't have any dart frogs but have cared for various tree frogs and others. EDIT: Wanted to put that "others" includes an african pixie frog lol on a side note they are some of the ugliest and nastiest frogs I've ever seen and the only one I know of with a "front tooth" that will render you fingerless if you aren't careful.


----------



## TimrekWTF (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks for the input DW, sort of reviewing everything in my head right now... Substrate was a 1 to 1 mix of organic peat moss and expanded coco fiber with a small bit of orchid bark all fertilizer/pesticide free...water was sprayed out of a new pump style garden sprayer, well rinsed to remove packing dust and plastic particles, mini viv the larger size acrylic exo terra critter keeper also new and rinsed well. Dish, 1" deep created rock dish with easy egress new, rinsed. Crickets pet store bought, lively and healthy so far as I can tell. The ones that are not MIA are all still alive surviving on banana peel, apple, parsley, a couple kibbles of dog food and a few cotton balls soaked in water. Ventilation good, entire top is slotted plastic. No smokers, no perfumes, no soaps, no air fresheners. Water is the filtered, reverse osmosis water you buy from Wal-mart from the machine. One cricket was dusted with ReptoCal brand calcium supliment with D3 but I have no way of knowing if he actually ate it as there were 2 others in there at the time. Hmm what else...coverd the substrate with a combination of dampend (dry) spaghnum moss and a dorment frog moss that was also purchased at a petstore. Going to give it another go and see if it was perhaps just a fluke.


----------



## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

The only suggestion I could make from there and since you didn't mention if you did would be that anything expanded / store bought I would use very very hot water to clean it.

Not sure about the frog moss. If the substrate weren't covered I might say impaction could be possible with the peat.

Frogs aren't as vulnerable to skin parasites as lizards and snakes are but I got in the habit that if I'm using coco, bark chips, sphagnum or any other type of substrate really I give it a good soak in the hottest water that will come out of my tap and rinse it in the same water several times (I have a handheld sprayer attached to my sink so this makes it easier).

If you don't have a hand held sprayer attachment there are some very inexpensive ones you can buy that attach to a standard sink and aren't permanent. This is also dependant on your water heater settings. Mine gets hot enough to burn you hence will shrivel most insects in seconds (just ask my many spider swimmers).

I noticed you have a build thread with a standard tank so I'm assuming the critter keeper was temporary. Not my favorite permanent enclosure but great for temporary housing. I would suggest you sterilize that container with a 10% bleach / 90% hot water mix. Rinse it very well and let sit for a couple of hours to make sure all the bleach has evaporated / been rinsed off.

I would hope that the store would give you your new frog friend in a critter friendly container such as a deli cup with air holes etc. If you happen to bring the new little guy home before you get a chance to do all this don't worry as he should be fine (as long as he is in something frog friendly) for a few hours in the little cup just make sure he is somewhere the temperature and humidity will be ok.


----------



## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Sorry for the double post but another thought....

Even though alot of people have success acclimating their tree frogs to diurnal feeding patterns you may want to make sure he is awake before putting food in. I don't mean waking him up but I mean wait until it gets dark and see that he is awake then put a couple of crickets in and I would dust all the crickets not just 1. Some people say every other feeding other people dust every feeding.


----------



## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

White's are voracious eaters, so I probably would stick w/ just coco fiber as the top layer substrate....if they accidentally swallow that, it will not harm the frog......(even the damp paper towel works in quarantine.....as it's easier to find the poop the next day)....also CAPTIVE BRED might improve your chances of not getting a sick frog..

From my own experience with that particular beauty of a speciman. 


Alex


----------



## skunk (Sep 28, 2008)

My daughter has had a Whites Tree Frog for over 5 yrs.She calls her "Fredrena". Has a water dish to soak in and she has a heat light on her which is red. She feeds her dusted crickets.She bought her as a tiny baby at a pet sore in Va. The frog is pretty big now. She will fit in your hand. She is fat and healthy.She has coco bedding on the bottom and a fake tree branch with a fake vine in it. She does mist her tank every every few days . You will see Fredrena soak in her water bowl quite often. Mind u this is what she does and so far all is well. Sorry about your loss.


----------



## TimrekWTF (Oct 19, 2008)

Thank you all for the quick feedback... DW I've taken almost all your advice so far. Everything but the tank itself has been cleaned, removed or boiled to sanitize. I'm begining to wonder if the frog was not injured slightly when I got him. I noticed that he didn't move when i put him in the tank, the one i just got has a very nice emerald green color (tim 1 was a bit brown) very dark eyes, and since putting him in his new home he's been to all four corners and every space inbetween. In and out of his plant, into and out of his bowl and climbed up and slid down all four walls. Very, very hoppy lol. I am making a gamble with not stripping down and cleaning the whole thing that it was a non communicable disease since these were his tank mates from the start. I am wondering if it was not something developmental that was agrivated in the transport. He showed no intrest in the crickets when they were added even when they crawled right in front of him. I spoke to the woman at Petco that takes care of them and she said these guys will eat all morning long if you let them. Hopefully flights of little winged froggy angels will speed him to a better place. 

And yes, I have been working on a 29gal tall viv for about a month now wich i think is pretty much done. waiting for the air ferns to attach themselves to the background so I can remove the toothpicks. Wouldn't want anybody hurting themselves. Also would like the creeping fig to fill in and take hold so he has somthing to grab onto. This is a real learning experience for me and I'm sure i'll make some mistakes. (The general consensis is that my african violet is going to get trampled to death, I may need to find something a bit more robust for the dumpy little guy). Thanks again for the feedback.


----------



## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

This is total hearsay, it was told to me by someone over the weekend. We were talking about bottled water. They said they had just read a report that the water from Wal-Mart was the worst, including it contained chlorine.

I don't know if that's true or not, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to treat the water to remove chlorine and chloramine.

It would only costs pennies and maybe save some additional heartbreak.


----------



## TimrekWTF (Oct 19, 2008)

Really??, I am very disapointed in Wal-Mart if that is the case. Right on the machine it says it removes virtually all chlorine (99% if im not mistaken). Is there an at home chlorine test that doesnt cost an arm and a leg? If I need to treat the water reguardless of where it comes from, is there an advantage to buying it or should i just let a couple of gals from the tap go stale and treat it?


----------



## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

I read something on yahoo about how wal-mart's bottled wasn't up to California's standards
heres a link

New Report Finds Toxic Bottled Water at Wal-Mart : Planetsave


----------



## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I thought I would mention one more thing since you said that the one frog was lethargic which the one you have now is active. Tank mates can have the same disease / parasite and it will kill one ore more faster than others.

I will put a disclaimer here: This is by no means a diagnosis!!! I'm not a vet etc etc etc. But a thread that comes to mind that was posted on this forum and shows that exact thing can be found here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/31507-leuc-chytrid.html

Hopefully Nish doesn't mind me using his post but that shows 1 frog that was in very very bad shape and the other frogs didn't seem all that bad off according to him and they were all from the same place. I don't remember if he had them tested seperately.

EDIT: The above link is only to show that 1 frog can seem to be the only one affected when in fact all of them needed treatment.


----------



## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

TimrekWTF said:


> or should i just let a couple of gals from the tap go stale and treat it?


I really don't know for sure, it was just a thought.

And you used to be able to just let your tap water sit overnight and the chlorine would evaporate. However, now many cities treat with chloramine. That does not disapate on it's own, you must use a conditioner to get rid of it. The cheapest I've found is at Lowe's in the pond section. You can get a fairly large bottle for around $8. And you of course can always find it in the aquarium section of any store that has pet supplies.

I just look at it as being a cheap safeguard.


----------



## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Since you say the frog was upside down it may have been that it tried to jump, hit its head and ended up belly up in the dish as a result. In all the years I have raised white's they are not the most graceful frog when jumping and will often bang themselves hard in to the object they want to jump on.


----------



## TimrekWTF (Oct 19, 2008)

I am happy to report that Tim2 seems to be doing alright thus far. We are approaching the 24hr mark and I have to say I wish he wasn't nocturnal or I was, one of the two. He may have thrown a big time party in his new digs last night and I'd never know. He has not taken food as of yet and been pretty content to sleep in his plant all day. I am hoping that with the dying of the light he will decide to get up and get moble before I go to bed. We keep the cricket cage pretty close to his and I would swear that he was poised in the corner checking them out. I probably should have given him 2 at that point but the woman at the pet store said they always feed them in the morning. One thing to note about this one vs. the late one....His protective eye membrane is not visable...seems like Tim1 had his eye'lids' half shut. Plus Tim2 has alot more movement to his throat sac. Very rapid shallow movments, very normal looking to me now that I have a comparison. Tim1 didnt have that. I'm begining to wonder if Tim1 may have suffered some sort of trauma before we bought him. I dont want to jump the gun and imagine a problem that isnt there but should I be concerned if he doesnt take food tonight. He is awfully young. Perhaps an inch and a half overall. Thanks again for all the helpful feedback.


----------

