# building first viv...bunch of little questions!



## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

ok sorry if this is common knowledge but thats just it its common knowledge so i cant find the answer! first ill tell you where im at. 20g long with a false bottom that i made with ideas found here. the back sits about 3 inches high and slopes toward the front which sits low enough that you cannot see it from the front. i will use black contact paper on the sides and unsure as of yet if i will do anything to the sides inside. the backround i made from foam and it looks real cool and fits in the tank just right..well it did look cool, i start covering it with the brown sealant and notice it seems im losing all that cool texture in the foam!?! im still waiting for it to dry to see if the excess falling off reveals some features but for now it looks like a hilly cliff of dirt :/ also its taking a long time to dry and i cant tell if it is adhereing at all. anyone with tips about if that is normal or if im worrying too much would be quite helpful. i did wet the coco early in the day and it was damp when used, could be my downfall? so im wondering about my backround being ok and i will post some pics later if that will help, but then i have a few other questions 

in a 20g if i use just a single piece of glass with a couple handles at either end as a top do i need a fan or vents like i see people using? any other opening ideas welcome. i may also still have a normal fish aquarium cover with a light and all that if their are any modifications i can do with that?!

i understand what the false bottom does, but do i really want to saturate the tank to the point of an inch with stagnant, unaccesible (to things in the tank), and likely fruit fly filled water? or can i keep it pretty humid in their environment while keeping the pool to a minimum, or am i simply thinking about it the wrong way?

does anyone ever worry about little bits of foam that might show up later or wasnt covered enough causing some type of toxic element, or do you cover it all with the intention of doing it fully but if you can see a tiny spot a week later dont worry.

maybe stupid question because i think the answer is outside lol..where do you all get leaf litter? ..if from outside am i correct in the thought that you must extract the bugs with heat to remove those you dont want in your viv? and are their some leaves that cannot be used?

are certain silicones toxic like the foam?

is their such a thing as a water pump that will draw water from a tube connected to your foam water pool instead of off the bottom of the tank? maybe it would have a small resevoir inside it or one could be added somewhere then the out side of the pump would have a tube going up to a waterfall.

where can i find cool viv plants? not online i mean.

like i said alot of questions that are common knowledge to someone who has done this before but any help is appreciated!! thanks


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

kermit2692 said:


> ok sorry if this is common knowledge but thats just it its common knowledge so i cant find the answer! first ill tell you where im at. 20g long with a false bottom that i made with ideas found here. the back sits about 3 inches high and slopes toward the front which sits low enough that you cannot see it from the front. i will use black contact paper on the sides and unsure as of yet if i will do anything to the sides inside. the backround i made from foam and it looks real cool and fits in the tank just right..well it did look cool, i start covering it with the brown sealant and notice it seems im losing all that cool texture in the foam!?! im still waiting for it to dry to see if the excess falling off reveals some features but for now it looks like a hilly cliff of dirt :/ also its taking a long time to dry and i cant tell if it is adhereing at all. anyone with tips about if that is normal or if im worrying too much would be quite helpful. i did wet the coco early in the day and it was damp when used, could be my downfall? so im wondering about my backround being ok and i will post some pics later if that will help, but then i have a few other questions
> 
> in a 20g if i use just a single piece of glass with a couple handles at either end as a top do i need a fan or vents like i see people using? any other opening ideas welcome. i may also still have a normal fish aquarium cover with a light and all that if their are any modifications i can do with that?!
> 
> ...


I will try and give my advice on all of this. 
For the background, you said brown sealant, can you clarify? I have done a foam background using great stuff foam and then a mixture of dry peat moss and Titebond 3 glue. You will loose some texture so you want to carve your foam in a more exaggerated looked.

For your false bottom you want to have access to it to empty it out. You can do this by taking an 1in pvc pipe, cutting notches in the bottom and putting it down through the egg crate or whatever you used for the false bottom. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the point isn't to purposely have water down there it's to have a place for water to go and for you to take it out. Your substrate shouldn't be dry by any means but not saturated.

To avoid spots in the foam just take your time and cover it well. It will take a week or so but you can do it. Overtime it will be exposed however that shouldn't be a huge problem. I could only see problems arising if the rough foam is exposed like if you sanded it and that was exposed.

For leaf litter and plants I use Glass Box Tropicals. Great prices, great quality and Mike is a great guy. Live oak and Magnolia leaves work well. If you get them outside there are methods to sanitize however they are all debated. Most people just put them in a sterilite box and let them dry for several months before use.
You can get plants from a local greenhouse however you must sterilize them and rinse them very well to get all of the chemicals off. Again, going through Glass Box Tropicals is a good idea because those plants are grown with the thought that they will go into a tank so care is taken with chemicals. Basic how to on that found here New England Herpetoculture LLC - Plant Processing & Basic Care

For silicone use GE 100% silicon. Nothing that has mold/mildew repellant.

I think that touches on everything. Other people feel free to correct me. Also keep in mind that all of the forums on here have a search option to help you further your knowledge. Don't just go off of one person, read a TON.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

ok thanks that clears up some of my worries. my false bottom sounds like it will do just fine then and im sure ill do a better job on my next backround but this one will work i think. by sealant i meant brown ge silicone equivalent as my local store only has that brand in white, just out of curiosity why no mold or mildew inhibitor on the backround as things that feed off mold or mildew should still have some available but i dont think you want alot of mold or mildew anyway do you? thanks for the tips as far as leaf litter i know you can forage for bugs in the way i described but i wasnt sure about the leaves afterward.
also bought a roll of thin sticky cork board for the side walls and maybe back if i feel like it. ill see how sticky it is but hopefully it is a good solution for a removeable surface that i can work on on the inside and doesnt look bad from the outside.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

having problems finding a cheap glass top and only coming upon the same one as far as premade goes which are these bifold with plastic back which are similar to what i see people making here. can i buy this one or is their a issue with making a vent out the back or a fly escape issue with these?...this project keeps getting more expensive and i thought i was being cheap! http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3731+3790&pcatid=3790


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

[quote by sealant i meant brown ge silicone equivalent as my local store only has that brand in white, just out of curiosity why no mold or mildew inhibitor on the backround as things that feed off mold or mildew should stillhavesome available but i dont think you want alot of mold or mildew anyway do you? ][/quote]

I could be wrong on this but ge silicone is the only one that is 100% silicone with no mold & mildew inhibitors(as they are toxic to frogs). You may want to post up exactly what you used because "equivalent" could mean a number of products that are not so equivalent for our uses. It looks like titebond also has a 100% silicone, food safe product also


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

kermit2692 said:


> also bought a roll of thin sticky cork board for the side walls and maybe back if i feel like it. ill see how sticky it is but hopefully it is a good solution for a removeable surface that i can work on on the inside and doesnt look bad from the outside.


 I would recommend not using that cork. It is better to get virgin cork bark or just regular compressed cork without adhesive and then use 100% silicon to attach them. You don't know what chemicals are used in the adhesive and how well it will hold up. The chemicals in the adhesive could hurt the frogs or it could come off the glass and fall on them later causing harm. It takes practice but it seems you are having difficulty determining or seeing what is safe to use in the viv. I would just browse on the forums especially the parts and construction. If you don't see anyone using what you are using find out why before you use it so you can avoid problems.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Caring for frogs

I recommend reading the above article in its entirety to understand what the necessities are. It offers a hands-on approach and perspective to the process of making a very simple tank, and it was what I used five years ago when I got into PDFs on my own. The article has since had a lot of extra content added, but skip through to the start of a basic setup and construction. 

Will


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## briley5 (Sep 27, 2012)

Just something I caught in the first few lines of your post.....if your false bottom slops down to where you cant see it, and I'm assuming thats because of the trim around the outside, I think you will have to be siphoning the water out daily be cause your substrate will wick the water right back up it and make it sopping wet. Try adding PVC "legs" under it and filling in the space in between the glass and the egg crate with small pebbles to hide it.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

thanks for all the replys every angle of perception i can get helps. the false botttom is on pvc but its only about a half inch in front (ok?). i do realize that may cause me to siphon more and ill need to watch it for the first couple weeks and hopefully taking into account how i mist and everything the water will never be that high anyway. i was going to run a bead of caulk under the top rim and over the cork so as to make sure it can never fall in i thought about that also. didnt really think about the toxicity of the adhesive since the cork will be covered by silicone id think the ability for it to release anything is about the same as a little spot of foam that shows through weeks later (as ive seen a couple people complain about this) also saw many people using contact paper but they may have been placing it on the outside of the tank. ill see what else i can find. real curious about the mold mildew thing in the silicone since even the stuff you are suggesting i use that is 100 percent silicone has mold mildew inhibitors as well, many people may not realize but if you read the label it mentions mold inhibition for 5 years and also says 100 percent silicone. does anyone have a first person story about the silicone actually causing a problem and it was for sure the silicone? last thing any input on sources for a glass top or can i just use the crappy pet store top linked above?


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

oh also to EVER SO SLIGHTLY alleviate the possible low false bottom issue i will place a couple felt feet at the front corners so you wont see a tilt really but water will want to move to the back where it will have a good bit of room before it rises to a level to reach the front.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

just reading that article slipperhead..nice sn btw lol..found a great bit of info in it, go to ace for glass not lowes or home depot..good to know i tried both and gave up, to ace it is!!


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Let us know if you have any more questions.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

kermit2692 said:


> thanks for all the replys every angle of perception i can get helps. the false botttom is on pvc but its only about a half inch in front (ok?). i do realize that may cause me to siphon more and ill need to watch it for the first couple weeks and hopefully taking into account how i mist and everything the water will never be that high anyway. i was going to run a bead of caulk under the top rim and over the cork so as to make sure it can never fall in i thought about that also. didnt really think about the toxicity of the adhesive since the cork will be covered by silicone id think the ability for it to release anything is about the same as a little spot of foam that shows through weeks later (as ive seen a couple people complain about this) also saw many people using contact paper but they may have been placing it on the outside of the tank. ill see what else i can find. real curious about the mold mildew thing in the silicone since even the stuff you are suggesting i use that is 100 percent silicone has mold mildew inhibitors as well, many people may not realize but if you read the label it mentions mold inhibition for 5 years and also says 100 percent silicone. does anyone have a first person story about the silicone actually causing a problem and it was for sure the silicone? last thing any input on sources for a glass top or can i just use the crappy pet store top linked above?


GE brand should just say 100%. I am looking at it now and cannot find it saying anything else. Also the contact paper is used outside the tank not inside. Are you planning on covering the cork entirely in silicon? That is kind of unclear. If that is the plan then why even use the cork at all? A benefit to cork is that it holds water making it a good medium for plants to attach to and grow on. I am not sure caulking is a safe/good idea, Silicon does the same job and is known to be ok. Also the foam is meant to be water proof and repel water, the adhesive is not so leeching chemicals from the adhesive into the cork and out the other side when wet is in my mind a possibility.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

kermit2692 said:


> oh also to EVER SO SLIGHTLY alleviate the possible low false bottom issue i will place a couple felt feet at the front corners so you wont see a tilt really but water will want to move to the back where it will have a good bit of room before it rises to a level to reach the front.


If your tank sits flat on a shelf the water will just lay evenly on the bottom of the tank and rise evenly. Tilting the false bottom won't change that and make it stay towards the back. Unless you are talking about tilting the whole tank up in the front, that would work. Could you clarify?


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

ya i meant to put little felt feet on the tank at the two front corners. wouldnt really be noticeable but if i found myself with a drainage issue it may eleviate it. not really worried about that though because im going to do a dry run with no animals for a while first obviously so if i have to pull out my backround and bottom and raise the front a bit and use gravel to hide that instead i can do it very quickly. which brings me to the cork sides, id like everything to be removeable which is why i thought this would work well, since the sides will not be thick like the backround and weigh next to nothing, i thought it would be easier to just cut a piece of this cork to size cover it same as i am the backround and then stick it in so that from the outside you only see cork not under and behind my false structures. from what i see alot of people foam right onto their glass for the sides and cover the outside which i dont really like i think. I am worried about my "sealant" as thats all it says, its dap which ive read online is ok on a frog related google search but eh people have been known to spread misinformation, and i know by this point its likely not 100 percent silicone but from reading up on silicone and sealants it would seem as long as its cured long enough it doesnt release anything toxic the problem comes in the fact that for the first week or two many sealants that are not 100% silicone recede and crack which would then leave foam exposed which supposedly is still toxic since its porous and gets wet, correct me if im wrong. well it has been done now nothing i can do but watch it for a week or so and redo any cracks with better stuff. the ge website says the 2 doesnt come in anything but clear and white only 1 comes in "bronze" so that is probably what i will get if i can find it. ill probably take some pictures tomorrow so you guys see im not crazy, i really think this is going to work but i feel its a bit ghetto rigged lol..definitely see the benifits of some of the methods on here but i couldnt find all of the supplies or more or less wasnt sure exactly what alot of them were so i settled for what i could find in a couple places. cheap local material sourcing has not been fun :/ mainly wanted some feedback to make sure i wasnt making any mistakes where someone goes nope stop you need to start over or you did this all wrong. jury is still out on the sealant 

so anyone who doesnt want to read all that
two questions remain! 

as long as its cured fully and i buy 100 percent silicone to fix any cracks, is the dap i used ok? if not why?

and last thing i need help with for now is some type of ventilation idea preferably with a single cut and no hole drilling. example being i saw one person who cut a corner off the top for cords i was thinking maybe to do this and insert a small computer fan on one side and an exhaust corner on the other back side, i know i would need the noseeem but what would i attach it to so the lid isnt permanently stuck to the tank? better ideas??


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

just checked daps website..i may have gotten lucky as i bought "premium indoor outdoor waterproof sealant" it claims it doesnt crack and is a low voc (volatile organic compounds) product. i think this stuff is fine and i sure hope so because it comes in alot of colors.


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

Im sorry to be the one to say this but it seems like you jumped into this without a lot of research first. Then when people try to give you advice you act like your doing it right and we are trying to tell you your wrong. It's not that at all we are trying to help.
1) I would not use DAP silicone 100, because it says "inhibits mold" so I would not take the chance.
2) putting a background on with tape, unless you know what's in the tape. Also most tapes don't work well over time in a frog environment.
3) if there are any small spots behind the background frogs will find it! 

I hope this helps please understand I'm not trying to be harsh


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

i did some research but ran into problems finding certain products. didnt say im doing it right nor did i refute anyones help im taking all of whats said into consideration. i also dont believe their is a right way to do (what i view as) an art project, although their are some considerations to take into account being their are animals, so i am trying to be innovative with what i find locally and do this my own way. became worried about the sealant and so i appologize if talking my way through wether it would be ok seemed like me saying oh well i dont care what you all say. i thought about that but i wasnt going to say oh ok ill redo my whole backround because nobody knows for sure lol. its just i see alot of people get worried about the phrase "mold and mildew inhibiting" and sealant is ALL naturally mold and mildew inhibiting because your sealing a crack lol its a selling point thats all. so i just wanted to suggest that thought and see if anyone has another viewpoint or information on a difference. if someone were to come and tell me sorry but im 100 percent sure its bad to use anything except for the ge because of x reason, then i would listen in a minute but so far the replies that have touched on not using materials all seem to have a notion of uncertainty, kind of a, hey i dont know that you cant use that but i dont know that you can so dont. in fact that seems to be everything i find on the issue. so no offense taken im not denying their concerns just id like some kind of reasoning on why its a common concern with frog ppl and that is the possible reasoning i came up with so i shared it just brainstorming! also i am not using the dap 100 its dap 230. im not putting up a backround with tape either, im putting up and covering adhesive cork for the sides only that will then be siliconed at the top and bottom in unseen locations just incase and the point of this is so i can eventually reuse the tank as everything will easily come out in seperate pieces since my backround and floor is unattached to the tank. the backround is made of foam with a plastic waterproof back and fits so perfectly in place that it is held by the top lip and lodged into the sides, it has a wide base and cannot fall or move. ill get pics tomorrow so you can see what i mean. also did think about that too so im going to make triple sure i frog proof everything and their are no gaps but so far so good on tightness from what i see. sorry for the extra long response!


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

That's not even silicone!! It's laytex. The same thing you paint your house with. I'll probably get in trouble for saying this but if you can NOT make a safe home for your pets DON'T buy them!! Your pets care is your responsibility! Give it a chance to live a long happy life...


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

ok your not helping at all. my intention is a safe habitat. telling me that its latex says nothing about why you think i cant use it. did you not see where i said im not putting anything in there until i do a dry run for a while? obviously if the plants die i wont add animals come on man. you still didnt have any type of evidence, even be it here say, as to why some sealants cannot be used! i obviously am new to this so i havent told anyone they are wrong JUST WHYYYYYYYY????? if you cant answer why then you have no business going around telling people they have to do something a certain way. and you sure have no business acting like ill kill the frogs if you have no idea! if you do, im listening!


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm done but try the search feature. since its toxic to frogs a dry run may not help. Best of luck. I hope you find what you need. There is not always a clearcut answer to everything. So we go by experience. It's not like you can call the maker of the product and ask hey what does your product do to frogs...the company A doesn't want you to know because what affects frogs can affect humans or B they will say i don't know it wasn't designed for that.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

reading the msds for the horrible latex dap right now and 70 percent of the tube is non hazardous polymer and water. the other 30 percent is additives that likely evaporate in the cure but ill keep reading to make sure. either way, everyone should know the reasoning behind the madness because it may not be an unusable product and may be a myth!


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

Yes, I don't know anything. But keep in mind laytex is water based meaning water can break it down and while it expands from heat/moisture it can release chemicals. I would know more on it but have never seen a use for it. Ge silicone is proven and easy enough to get.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

btw by dry run i meant with no frogs not with no water.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

i understand that but either my local hardware store didnt have it in colors because they carry what i bought, or i missed it so i am where i am!! i completely agree with you it can slightly expand and contract and may release a bit of something. thats called offgassing and that is the main reason for me doing a dry run for a while first, so that any remaining chemicals not evaporated in the curing process will disipate if any are even left. i mean the offgassing cant happen forever! the total amount of harmful chemicals by volume is around one percent in the whole tube. took under two tubes to cover the whole thing and then that is covered as well with coco and im going to have good ventilation plus a good long cure. do you still think with that information that it will actually harm an animal? i really dont see how.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Possible suggestion to doing a removable background, use the foam on some egg crate and then attach the egg crate with silicon. Should provide good results and be easy. An alternative (and something I became a fan of) is doing a tank without a background. This allows for 360 degree viewing, lets more light in, and saves a lot of time, money, and stress. I did a tank where I just got a very nice piece of driftwood as a centerpiece and then planted around it without doing a background. From what I have seen most frogs don't even use a background for climbing ect. and they tend to be more for our own pleasure (not that there is anything wrong with that). Also I don't think we have gotten to the fun question, what frogs are you looking at getting? This helps with the design process as well.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Also after researching on the boards more DAP might be safe. I don't have it in front of me nor have I used it so that's that but here is an article talking about the chemicals used in silicon with mold inhibitor with some discussion. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html

Also for ventilation you don't really have to do it. I have had solid glass tops and vented ones and both worked fine. There are many how to instructions for vented tops that can all be made with stuff from a hardware store.

You are right with that art project analogy however there are somethings that do not have as much freedom. No need for this thread to turn into a huge argument, just express what you know and compare with others, some people on this forum are great sources of knowledge as they are Herp Vets or have worked at zoos ect so it's good to look around and listen (I am neither just an amateur hobbyist). We will all and have all made mistakes at some point so the best is to post your mistakes so others can learn in the future. Not saying everything or anything you are doing is a mistake because only time can tell but seeing how others have gone wrong is a huge help.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi,

An important lesson to learn quickly when making a tank is that there is no cutting corners regarding the health of a frog. Frogs are some of the most sensitive animals in the world; scientists track the vigor of a frog population to determine effects of climate change and upcoming diseases.

With that in mind, you will be told in this community that DAP 230 _latex_ seal is not safe at all for a tank that holds animals. The latex expands and contracts as well, which will ruin a background in the long-term, too. Using products with *any* man-made chemicals is a big no-no! Therefore, we implore you to replace the DAP 230 sealant you have used. A simple search on the forum reveals that people have already had problems using this seal. GE 100% Silicone I is easy to find and considered the safest out there. 

Will


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## Followgravity (Dec 31, 2012)

I might have missed it but what kind of dap do you have because I was looking at the tube I've been using this morning and its dap 100% silicone, it even says on the tube that it cures food safe. Not sure of the exact threads but If you do a google site search for dap silicone you will come up with some good info you can use at your own discretion.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

thanks for all your concern, i would just like to know why. no one seems to know, but id just like to be able to make a better choice on things in the future so more relateable knowledge is good to have. i understand that their are some chemicals in it just dont understand how if cured properly it could hurt the frogs and id like to know! zth eventually if i ever get this right id like to get 2-4 leucs depending on how much final space i have probably three so they all have room. maybe two if that winds up being the concensus when i get that far. i want something larger that is a bit less timid but also may use the height a bit more.

so heres what im thinking about doing, id like to be able to add frogs in a few weeks so im going to keep the backround i made and let it offgas for a long long time before i use it in the future..like 6 months a year.. as this is the only negative thing about using what i used that i can find at least. ill then make a new effing backround  im still not convinced so im keeping it for later!! it will make me feel better!

a bit confused though since everyone says to use the ge silicone 2, the ge website says that only comes in white and clear and the ge 1 comes in bronze but everyone says they use brown?!?!?!


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

If you would like a reference article or in-depth response that details how something like LATEX would affect a frog, I would suggest writing Ed a private message. He will say the same thing.

I use clear and black GE silicone.


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## Gnarly (Mar 3, 2011)

Hey Kermit, 

Where are you located? Maybe someone in your area can direct you to the stores they get their supplies from, so you can be sure you are getting a frog friendly product and don't have to worry about guessing and second guessing the supplies you buy. 

Also, I know it can be frustrating to have to tear a tank down after you've spent so much time, effort and money on it. Maybe save this tank for some plant overflow, you can use it to propagate clippings, or store extra plants for further builds; this way you can use the tank, and still not worry about compromising the health of any frogs.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

im just north of chicago...actually only joined this board TO find someone close to me that would be cool with showing me their set up and explaining all these things in person but the couple people that offered to do so went quiet quickly in pms lol i think maybe people are wary of metting people from online which i understand but im not that worried about it since most frog people seem to be chill and down to earth. so anyway i realized that wasnt panning out and started building a viv in the hopes i could get it done by this coming sunday for the reptile swap. so anyway going to remake a damn backround today, i hope it fits as well as the first one! how long does it need to cure before adding frogs with the right stuff? id like it to be done by sunday unless anyone here has a couple to sell  ohh and that has the confidence i can keep them alive unlike dave 2 loljk


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## Gnarly (Mar 3, 2011)

kermit2692 said:


> im just north of chicago...actually only joined this board TO find someone close to me that would be cool with showing me their set up and explaining all these things in person but the couple people that offered to do so went quiet quickly in pms lol i think maybe people are wary of metting people from online which i understand but im not that worried about it since most frog people seem to be chill and down to earth. so anyway i realized that wasnt panning out and started building a viv in the hopes i could get it done by this coming sunday for the reptile swap. so anyway going to remake a damn backround today, i hope it fits as well as the first one! how long does it need to cure before adding frogs with the right stuff? id like it to be done by sunday unless anyone here has a couple to sell  ohh and that has the confidence i can keep them alive unlike dave 2 loljk


If you stick around a bit I'm sure you'll find a few locals willing to meet you. Frog people are super chill & down to earth. 

I personally give my viv at least a week to allow the silicone to cure, with the doors open and no top on it before I even add plants and microfauna. Then I will give it a few weeks to sit so the plants can acclimate and the bugs can establish themselves and I can make any changes to plants I see fit.

So I'd say doing the background and throwing frogs in there by Sunday would be rushing it. 
However, it's easy enough to set up a temporary home for your frogs, and you'll want to quarantine them anyway, so your not running into any issue there. You can get a BPA free plastic container, throw a bit of sphagnum, leaf litter and a pathos clipping or two in there and you're set. 

I'm sure you'll keep your frogs alive if you listen to all the advice the members here have to offer. Don't take it so personally if someone gets a little bit passionate about these frogs, we are all concerned for their welfare, and they are pretty delicate creatures.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Leucs are great frogs, I just got a breeding pair and will have tadpoles in a week. 
Another step to consider apart from letting your tank air out ect is to quarantine the frogs as said above. I will be honest with you that I thought "quarantining is to hardcore I'm not like that I won't do it" when I first started but now I wouldn't not quarantine the frogs. Basic instructions on how to to that can be found in the health section. Fecal testing is also needed, this can help you avoid ruining a viv completely. If a frog has some type of worm ect they can invest the viv and ruin it.

Also I hope I speak for everyone but at least for myself when I say we aren't here to be angry or talk you out of it we just don't want to see a death/seemed ok at the time thread as they tend to happen a lot lately.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

i agree completely i dont want to cause failure and no hard feelings dave2 i understand your main concern was the frogs but i completely agreed with that before hand. it was just really hard for me to throw away what i had done because it fit so well and i was all proud of how it looked :/ lol. just wanted some reasoning for everyones actions, however after more reading i found the main answer i was looking for and you can all take note of this if you like for when you run into another guy like me ha. so basically i was right that alot of the toxic stuff will disipate when it cures but a good deal of it does not and will offgas for even a year so that killed my plan of keeping it a long time before using it. the bad chemicals inside that stick around are called voc's which is volatile organic compunds. now i know this to be true because it says it right on the msds. i wound up buying dap still since i cant seem to find ge at any of the stores around me (havent tried ace yet, their are very few around) but it says food safe and says 100 percent silicone and does not say anything about mold or mildew! also came in brown. still using the cork board for the sides. it has been cut to size already and will be clear siliconed on the sides and top and bottom and then siliconed with brown on the front with whatever features added and again im doing this so that if i need in the future i can just yank on the edge of the silicone and start over without a mess (at least that was the goal of this approach) could leave the sides bare but i have some good ideas to maximize floor space by kind of adding a carport style feature that they can hide under or climb onto, that will slope. so last thing up in the air is ventilation and making the top but the rest is coming together with proper materials! i was thinking i may be rushing it and this has turned into a bigger expense than i thought so ill look into quarantining and then look into my wallet and decide if i wait or not! i may just pick up a couple plants and wait a couple weeks for the next swap then quarantine them.

next question is about the foam. ive seen that its toxic but i believe great stuff cures 100 percent hard and has no offgassing. my question is what can do people prefer? their is a green pond can that claims fish safe for twice the price. why isnt everyone using that for added safety measure?

also so far for the top ive found glass (with cutting service) at ace and thats it but they claim to only have 1/8th inch which i would have to be extra careful with. anyone else know of a common place to get glass cut? i can do it but theirs a chance i mess up and id rather pay them the dollar or two to cut it. maybe i can just get thicker glass elsewhere and have ace cut it lol


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

kermit2692 said:


> im just north of chicago...actually only joined this board TO find someone close to me that would be cool with showing me their set up and explaining all these things in person but the couple people that offered to do so went quiet quickly in pms lol i think maybe people are wary of metting people from online which i understand but im not that worried about it since most frog people seem to be chill and down to earth. so anyway i realized that wasnt panning out and started building a viv in the hopes i could get it done by this coming sunday for the reptile swap. so anyway going to remake a damn backround today, i hope it fits as well as the first one! how long does it need to cure before adding frogs with the right stuff? id like it to be done by sunday unless anyone here has a couple to sell  ohh and that has the confidence i can keep them alive unlike dave 2 loljk


I was recently trying to help someone out and after spending quite a bit of my precious time only to have him completely disregard what I had told him I completely ignored him. I don't consider this rude of me, personally. Not saying this applies to you but might be something to consider.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

i dont feel wrong in any way nor do i think he was just two different ways of thinking. i dont think its the same scenario, though i totally understand what you mean. i have been in your shoes which is exactly why in one of the posts i believe i told him im not dismissing his answer id just like reasoning...now hopefully we can keep that on page 2 :/


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

You can use the black pond foam or the yellow foam. I personally like black because if spots develop it is not as obvious. For a lid you can just use a single sheet and use those 3M adhesive picture hooks as handles. Just cut it slightly smaller than needed so it still fits over the little edge the tank should have around the inside but not so it fits very tight. I have noticed my tanks expand and contract ever so slightly which causes problems getting the lid off. You don't want to shatter it on the frogs hah


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

zth8992 said:


> I have noticed my tanks expand and contract ever so slightly which causes problems getting the lid off. You don't want to shatter it on the frogs hah


ahh good to know! i was thinking about doing two half pieces and doing the living hinge then cutting off the back corner or corners for some ventilation but i may also do the plan where you cut a hole and use the noseeem and some pvc but im worried about drilling the hole. drilling in glass is always a edge of your seat task lol. any pros or cons of doing this instead of a single piece?


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi there,

WHen you speak of foam, are you talking about GreatStuff? The expanding foam for backgrounds? I use to use that but now use tree fern panels. Both works great though. Just cover the GS with black silicone and slap on some good 'ole peat/ coco mix. 

Glass. I don't have experience with custom glass tops, maybe 1/8" is fine though? Maybe it isn't. Can't say. What I do is drill in the pre-made hinged glass aquarium tops a nice round hole for ventilation. I know you don't want to drill, though, which you don't have to really. I taped off the back plastic spacer to make it FF-proof.

Will


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

see i saw those and someone wrote on like petco or whatevers feedback that they are not the best quality and that its not tight. i have a 20 long and a few people complained that on the 20 long their is a small gap and room to wiggle it around which creates the gap by the plastic spacer?! so i wasnt sure about using those since they are about 20 bucks and i can make one for a bit less IF i dont break a piece doing it lol. i think im going to drill the hole i have a drill press. ya just the great stuff foam i used. i like it because i can make some ledges the frogs can jump on at the bottom and a couple spots to plant something near the middle and top. i havent read up on any other methods yet but i think i saw that people do the panels silicone em straight to the glass and im trying to avoid doing that. why do peat coco mix and not one or the other?? as of now i have not started silicone on the new backround and i only have coco as it is so just wondering if i should/need to get some peat also? and if so where do you get it?


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

I would NOT drill glass with a press also you will need a diamond tip hole saw. You may what to contact a glass shop.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

got the press idea on here from a few different threads. why would you still advocate just using a normal drill? jw want to make sure if it comes to it im not missing some small trick..ill have to look for a cheap glass place some more because that is best case scenario but if i do have to drill i have the proper bits and have done it before i just dont like to do it!


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm confused...if you know. What are you asking??


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

Here is an idea. Why don't you by a screen kit for a window make it like 3"x30" have the glass cut to the remainder of the top and go that route? No drilling.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

i didnt actually ask anything about drilling most of that was in response to slipperhead and a little bit of brainstorming out loud but since you brought it up id love to hear why you prefer a hand drill. i did ask where i can get peat and why people mix it into coco for the backround, if its preference or mandatory. those things i dont know.


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

lol and that i also dont know. i believe that requires a screen spline and a few other things? not sure but is that a better route cost wise?


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

Peat/coco fiber is what you like. I use coco and sheet/carpet moss. Cost wise depends on what you want. Fully sealed tanks fog and build heat. Also depends on how many pieces of glass you break...as far as drilling I was taught to start on an angle not straight.


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

PM sent check your in box


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## kermit2692 (May 8, 2013)

didnt come through for some reason. still says 0 unread 8 total.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi,

Drilling is first done at an angle to create a "groove" for the drill bit to fit into and avoid marks elsewhere on the tank glass. With a drill press, you don't have to worry since the bit is fixed into a machine and not a wobbly arm and hand .


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