# Darts at Baltimore aquarium



## BrianC (Jul 18, 2009)

So I have heard rumors that there are frogs roaming "free" in the rainforest at the national aquarium in Baltimore, but in several recent visits I hadn't seen one... until today. I heard a call and then found a tricolor hopping along right beside the walking path. I was so pleased about it I had to let you know...


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Far, FAR rarer PDFs were released there.


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## maxdendros (May 29, 2009)

Alan Zimmerman said:


> Far, FAR rarer PDFs were released there.


Like what?!?!?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

It would have been nice if you would have been pleased with the wonderful exhibits and posting something about them.

This isn't really good for the forum or hobby.

What's next...a field trip to ABG ?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> It would have been nice if you would have been pleased with the wonderful exhibits and posting something about them.
> 
> This isn't really good for the forum or hobby.
> 
> What's next...a field trip to ABG ?


I'm not sure what you mean by this?


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

I didn't see anything wrong with the statement.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

A couple posts have indicated "attention" to possible frogs at zoological institution. One recent post advocated collecting them.

Is this something we want to be associated with as a community and a hobby?

Advertising the taking of animals from a zoo?


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

I have a crap load of pictures from there....Very neat place!!! I enjoy catching the tri's


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jfehr232 said:


> I have a crap load of pictures from there....Very neat place!!! I enjoy catching the tri's


John,

You catch and take frogs from a Zoo?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Wow...

Now I know what you meant by that Phil 

When we go to a butterfly conservatory, we don't take a friggin net


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> John,
> 
> You catch and take frogs from a Zoo?


Nah, not literally....As in like seeing one and just examining it I guess you could say? I should have said, " trying to spot them out." The second time I went their yes a tri color "hopped" onto my forearm but no I did not physically handle them. 

Hope this clears my post up.


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

I hope I did not come off to be this type of person to ya phil. It boggles me to think of that but no nothing in that sense never occured.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Guys, what the heck? Someone can't post about the free range frogs at the aquarium? 

Lets back of the over protectiveness as there is nothing wrong the original post.

They are very neat and fun to watch in a larger setting.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jfehr232 said:


> I hope I did not come off to be this type of person to ya phil. It boggles me to think of that but no nothing in that sense never occured.


No,John....we have met several times and I have never thought anything bad of you or heard anything for that matter.

One misconstrued post doesnt seal anything either. I'm just trying to head this one "off at the pass".

I know several curators there. I have field herped and flipped large rocks up there with Peter K. and full authorization. We photographed some stuff in situ (as we found it) only.

We just really shouldn't have this broadcasted and on this forum. I'm pretty sure they would contact law enforcement and press a theft charge if someone took any animal from that building.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> We just really shouldn't have this broadcasted and on this forum. I'm pretty sure they would contact law enforcement and press a theft charge if someone took any animal from that building.


Nobody said anything about stealing frogs from the exhibit. The fact that there are frogs in an open exhibit at NAIB is not some great secret that needs to be protected from the forum.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Catfur said:


> Nobody said anything about stealing frogs from the exhibit. The fact that there are frogs in an open exhibit at NAIB is not some great secret that needs to be protected from the forum.


How sure are you that the frogs are on "open exhibit"? I haven't been there in a year or so, but they were not at that time. They did not start out as a deliberate attraction and I doubt that the institution's insurance policy would cover an "open exhibit". 

Hopefully Dan reads this thread and brings us up to speed on all this....

There was a post in another thread that advocated snatching some frogs from this zoo. This thread started a few hours later......


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

No one is advocating stealing frogs, though the free range frogs in the exhibits there are commonly known and shared by the staff during the tours.

Lets not over react to what appears to be a simple honest post.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

there might be a group trip to NAIB 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/northeast/3009-mid-atlantic-dendro-society-new-post.html


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## Bob Fraser (Nov 21, 2007)

Phil,
I'm starting my journal early!! OK not really. Don't forget they've all got chips in them.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

jfehr232 said:


> I have a crap load of pictures from there....Very neat place!!! I enjoy catching the tri's


Sorry John!

I misread You're post


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

My fiance's purse wasn't big enough for the free roaming sloth at the Detroit zoo, just the "Golfo Dulce Dart-Poison Frogs" that free roam the walk-through rainforest there. 

I'm kidding, of course. 

I wonder if zoos have problems with avian enthusiasts taking birds from aviaries?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

The Detroit Zoo actually has to shut down that walk-through exhibit when a volunteer is not there to man it, due to people walking off with the frogs. I was talking to Marcy about it the other day - the original plan was to release multiple dart species in the exhibit, that would utilize different areas, but theft quickly squelched that idea.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

zBrinks said:


> The Detroit Zoo actually has to shut down that walk-through exhibit when a volunteer is not there to man it, due to people walking off with the frogs. I was talking to Marcy about it the other day - the original plan was to release multiple dart species in the exhibit, that would utilize different areas, but theft quickly squelched that idea.


That's a shame. I've never been to an exhibit like that and it seems like it would really be amazing. The Academy of Sciences in San Francisco has a very nice rain forest "biotope", but no free range PDF's (although there is one strategically placed plastic pumilio which fools more people than it should).


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

zBrinks said:


> The Detroit Zoo actually has to shut down that walk-through exhibit when a volunteer is not there to man it, due to people walking off with the frogs. I was talking to Marcy about it the other day - the original plan was to release multiple dart species in the exhibit, that would utilize different areas, but theft quickly squelched that idea.


People will steal anything that isn't nailed down, it seems. Even then it better have a lot of nails. 

I hope no one gets Homer!


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I'm sure the sloth is good - he can fend for himself!

I'm working with the Detroit Zoo to get more captive breeding of Dendrobatids going on at their facility. Assuming we're successful, hopefully free-range darts will return to the exhibit.

Any pictures of the tricolors? Where did they seem to hang out in the exhibit? Leaf litter? Near a water source?


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

It would be cool to see their extra aetelopus out any about in there... last time I was there they had a whole rack of them that weren't being "used" so to speak. More a fantasy than anything that I'd ever consider a reality, though. 

Last time I was in there, a mouse ran up that tree and right over Homer's back. He didn't even wake up.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

zBrinks said:


> I'm sure the sloth is good - he can fend for himself!
> 
> I'm working with the Detroit Zoo to get more captive breeding of Dendrobatids going on at their facility. Assuming we're successful, hopefully free-range darts will return to the exhibit.
> 
> Any pictures of the tricolors? Where did they seem to hang out in the exhibit? Leaf litter? Near a water source?


The tricolors are all over the place. You mainly hear them more than anything but they are there. They seem to fearless, probably since they are use to large groups of people walking through the exhibit. They also breed in the exhibits. When i was there last i saw one male, heard another and saw a baby. So they are successful breeding, apparently they are starting to be everywheres, even in the drain pipes. I guess since they have no predators they are reproducing faster than normal.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> What's next...a field trip to ABG ?


Froggers have been taking field trips to ABG, NYBG, and tropical greenhouses for years now. Are you suggesting DB shouldn't facilitate these types of trips? Members in our regional forums often arrange these things.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

pl259 said:


> Froggers have been taking field trips to ABG, NYBG, and tropical greenhouses for years now. Are you suggesting DB shouldn't facilitate these types of trips? Members in our regional forums often arrange these things.


Field trips are fine but are they taking frogs from the facility in film cans?

From the MADS thread......










*Re: Mid-Atlantic Dendro Society* 


> I'm down with that. Last time i was there, this past year I saw two of them right in front of me.* If i had soemthing to put them in I could easily have snagged them both*. They are definitly all over the place there.


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## boricorso (Feb 19, 2008)

I was there this past thanksgiving. There are tricolors runing around.

At first I thought they were recordings of their call just for the effect, until I got towatrd the end of the forest (before the last frog displays) where there is some type of tarantula in a log display. I kept hearing this loud call in some broms next to me so I decided to poke around. to my surprise there were 2 tricolors on the floor near the rock wall.

I could not believe they were roaming free, I thought they had escaped, but then realized that in such a wonderfull enclosure why not have them run around. I also noticed at least 3 attendants in the forest area at all times. One even aproached me when she saw me looking around and confirmed to me that there were forgs roaming free. She also mentioned that the only frogs they have loose (as far as frogs are concerned ) in the forest are tricolors. They do not keep it a secret since they have the signs quite visible for everyone to know there are frgs around.

Which I had some decent pictures but all I had was my cell phone and a 2 year old dragging me all over the place.

Bit off topic: as cool as the rainforest was, the display with the castis and galacts was by far my favorite one.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Field trips are fine but are they taking frogs from the facility in film cans?
> 
> From the MADS thread......
> 
> ...


I was only trying to make the point that they are numerous and very outgoing, not that I would actually take them from the aqaurium. The fact I said i could ahve snagged both of them doesn't actually mean that I would. I didn't actually say I want to go to back to the aqaurium to collect tricolors did I. If I did then i didn't realize it. 

Phil I think you're taking this thread a little two seriously. Nobody has seriously said anything about collecting frogs from the zoo.

I'm sorry that you misconstrued the post between Julio and I. 

Like it has already be mentioned many times in this thread the tricolors are very outgoing and not skittish at all, and its not a secret that they are free rroaming since they have many signs around the exhibits that say there are tricolors.

Sorry to make it seem like I want to go collect frogs from the aqaurium.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

George,

You and I know each other......Do I think you are a serial frog snatcher? No. I think you made a post that could be highly misconstrued.

The point is....there are a LOT of 14 year olds and other impressionable people that frequent this forum. I don't doubt that someone will want to try to take a frog when they find out how, and I don't think we should advertise that.

This thread was started an hour or so after the MADS posting and I think it's a trolling post or a 14 yr old or maybe both.

Maybe it's my fault for drawing attention to all this....


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> George,
> 
> You and I know each other......Do I think you are a serial frog snatcher? No. I think you made a post that could be highly misconstrued.
> 
> ...


I completely understand your point. Maybe we should just leave it at that.

On a lighter note, the casti and galact exhibit was one of my favorites as well.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

A comment was made to me by an employee of ABG that there are as many Tricolors at the Atlanta Botanical Garden as there are in Ecuador, they are every where but you have to keep a sharp eye to spot them. The earlier in the AM you can get there the better. Making people aware of these exhibits is good thing, and seeing them hopping around in a semi realistic environment heightens the experience. For those that can't go to the rainforest this is as close as they can have to that experience. You can't tell people not to cross the street for fear of being hit by a bus....Phil your passion for this hobby is great but now and then you should chill when judging others.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

markpulawski said:


> they are every where but you have to keep a sharp eye to spot them.


I visited this summer and you didn't really need a sharp eye, they are very visible


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## BrianC (Jul 18, 2009)

I never imagined this thread would incite such derision.

The frog that I saw was near a water feature - not much leaf litter around but heavy plant cover nearby. I heard others calling from other parts of the room - they may have been calling other times I was there but this was the first time I noticed it. A friend took a photo which I will post if it turns out nice.

I don't think it's any secret - as someone else posted there is signage which suggests that they are present - but they're tough to spot (at least to my untrained eye) as this is the first one I saw in 3 visits to that exhibit this year.

I sincerely hope that with the high admission price, the numerous watchful docents, security cameras, and the unlikelihood of spotting one; an unscrupulous hobbyist would realize the advantage of purchasing frogs legally rather than stealing one.

I was interested to finally know that they actually are in there, and imagine that others like me would like to know that so they might also observe these animals in such a unique man-made setting.

If you have not had the pleasure of visiting the NAIB, I highly recommend it - most of the exhibits are wonderful - there are other threads with some photos elsewhere on this forum. I have found that visiting on a weekday if at all possible is the most enjoyable as yesterday I was often the only person at a given exhibit, rather than being herded through.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Sometimes I really wish I was born with multiple speeds instead of just one....

It has cost me a friendship or two, but I tend to think we are all really hardwired prior to birth. The day I lose passion or bite my tongue will most likely either be my end, lost in the forest or incapacitated in some foreign land.

Brian, I would LOVE to think that ALL of our hobbyists would seek out and purchase CB animals rather than the other aternatives but somehow, I have the suspicion that some people would much rather have a free frog or even the prospect of obtaining one in a sneeky manner.

Thanks for a well constructed second post Brian.....you had me wondering with the first one. As far as a thread being derisive or uncomfortable - I don't see it. I think there's decent discussion here, more than anything else.

I'm not arguing this particular thread just for the sake of arguments either -I've been a supporter and friend of the zoo for over 15 years and have gone inside well over a dozen times.


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

While I don't see intent here, Phil does bring up a good point. There are lurkers and surfers out there. I've participated in some forums where specific locations are kept very secret. While it is sad that we have to use discretion, it's probably for the best.


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## boricorso (Feb 19, 2008)

Phil, I commend you on your passion.

I understand where you are comming from. I also tend to believe that many people will do the wrong thing just for the hell of it. In this particular case a free forg could be easy pickings and Im sure someone has probably tried, maybe even succeded in gettign a hold of one. I would like to think that no one involved with the hobby would dare try it ...but who knows!!!

The point is that its no secret that they are there and hopefully the staff are keeping and open eye for this type of behavior. All in all the display is great and hopefully it educates and shows people what a rainforest is supposed to look like and the diversity of animals and plants they would not be able to see otherwise.

Personally I didnt see many frogs around. I could hear them but was only able to spot 2 after a bit of a search. Tricolors in leaf liter are not necesarily easy to spot. All the time I spent in the enclosure I did not see one person looking around for the forgs, they are not easy to spot and most probably are just passing by and do not wish to waste time looking for them. I also beleive the birds and other animals in the enclosure keep them more occupied.

I did see at least 3 attendants at all times inside the enclosure and when they saw me looking around one aproached me and we discussed the forgs for a bit. My biggest concern at the moment was not wheather the frogs could be stolen (bit naive from my part at the moment) but with the fact that heavy traffic speacially of small children could cause harm to the frogs. Personally I'd be more worried about having children or teens running around and chasing/stepping on the forgs (intentionally) if they did come across one.

Hopefully most people that attend the aquarium are capable enough or under capable supervision by the staff and/or family members/friends they go with. At least I hope so and or would like to think so.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

if its possible, someone will steal it. Thats just how it works. frogs have/will be stolen as long as they are not behind glass. I'm guessing the aquarium thought the benefit to its visitors outweighed the % of animals they would loose. Otherwise they would be back behind glass right? 
Whats the point of having free rang animals and tring to keep them secret, thats silly and pointless. Go to the aquarium and spend your money to enjoy them and tell others so they do the same.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

When one loses their passion for this hobby, they should probably leave it or greatly diminish their collection, which i have done a time or 2. Just realize there is more than 1 right way and right opinion...USUALLY. As for this thread it is cool to see the frogs free ranging but as I said before, usually they are really hard to spot. I have been at ABG when the sound was overwhelming yet I could only spot 1 or 2 frogs. They actually put talapia in a couple of the ponds because the Cuban tree frog tads were like swarming insects. Tp ;et people know about this is the right thing in my estimation as I still believe most people will do the right thing and if they are commited to dart frogs it is unlikely they would grab a few. 
There will always be a few out there that will try and ruin everyone's freedom by being irresponsible and doing the wrong thing....but we can't stop trying because of them.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> if its possible, someone will steal it. Thats just how it works. frogs have/will be stolen as long as they are not behind glass. I'm guessing the aquarium thought the benefit to its visitors outweighed the % of animals they would loose. Otherwise they would be back behind glass right?
> Whats the point of having free rang animals and tring to keep them secret, thats silly and pointless.


I don't think he existance of any "free range" frogs at the zoo has been for attendence purposes. 

These large smooth sided bad boys, for instance were introduced solely for cricket and cockroach control. You will probably not see them unless you flip.













The Tri's are so well established, it would take an army of people to remove them - or attempt to. That's why they are still there and not "back behind glass". I really don't think people go to the zoo for the "free range" frogs. Birds....yes.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When the new batch of smooth sided toads were introduced, the population of tricolor took a big hit (I was down there about 2 months after the introduction and I couldn't find any tricolors despite having seen them repeatedly prior to that time). 

In any case, if people have collected them and added them to thier collection, then they might want to check thier collection for chytrid... 

Ed


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Ed said:


> In any case, if people have collected them and added them to thier collection, then they might want to check thier collection for chytrid...


That would be a right bite in the ass.

I would say it serves them right for stealing the frog in the first place, but the chance that a "legit" collection could get infected is a shame.

Id love to get a chance to see some free range darts, but we are just not that lucky over this side of the pond, to my knowledge.

Richie


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

Simply put, 

As ED said. _Tricolors_ and _Bufo gutatus_ are present in the URF (Upland Rainforest) and their booming populations are there for you viewing pleasure. Volunteers are always on exhibit during all hours of operation and update the staff in the backup space on all that is going on in the URF. Be smart like your mother taught you, "You can look, but don't touch." Leave these little guys alone and just take pretty pictures, because if you don't I know a few unhappy people who work up there that will gladly give you a lesson in not taking what isn't yours. Happy Holidays guys. 

Dan


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I've never been to see this exhibit, but would very much like to. I'm curious if tricolors were picked as the dart used for this exhibit partly due to the large clutch sizes. Not that stealing of the animals is encouraged, but that they kinda expected it. Just a thought I had while reading through this.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

maxdendros said:


> Like what?!?!?


Like PDFs one would not find in the Dendroboard classifieds.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Alan Zimmerman said:


> Like PDFs one would not find in the Dendroboard classifieds.


I think know which ones Alan is referring to.. 


Ed


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> Sorry John!
> 
> I misread You're post


No biggie...I would upload my pictures but for some reason I have troubles resizing pics on my mac.( Takes forever).....I am looking to put an application in for Herpetology at the Baltimore Aquarium.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jfehr232 said:


> I am looking to put an application in for Herpetology at the Baltimore Aquarium.


You should contact Dan (above post)

(SN) Widmad27

Even though he didn't say....I think he is still there, doing that very thing.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

ABG had actually released Silverstonei, Terribilis and Bassleri (all donated) into their exhibit however when I saw any of them they were very emaciated ( I would doubt any of those animals survived). Frogs requiring larger food don't do well in those kind of set ups, the very reason likely Tricolors do so well, they are so adaptable.
I had heard years ago that NAIB had a Chytrid infection and did not want to treat and clean out every possible animal/enclosure, that would certainly be the best deterrent to theft but make it impossible for them to transfer animals...though I would have taken a chance on some of those Bullseye's if chytrid had not wiped most or all of them out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I could be wrong but if I remember correctly, the chytrid was one of the reasons they no longer have free ranging Smilesca in the Upper Rainforest (and they use to breed in the rain buckets)... At least at one point, tricolors were found breeding in the drains under the exhibits.. and they could act as a vector for chytrid transfer so breaking down and disinfection would have been impractical at best... and realistically non-viable. 
At NAIB, the Smilesca did very well so there were larger inverts on which they could feed.. I can't speak for ABG. 

Ed


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I have been to the aquarium quite a few times but I never knew about this. I just went today and spent about 20 minutes looking for them up there, and I managed to see one. I heard one very clearly, but he was concealed in the leaf litter I guess. It was very cool, I never even thought they would have something like that. I also found an extremely small frog, about 1/8" and was all brown with black markings on the thighs, I'm guessing it was a newly morphed smooth sided toad? Here's some pics of the frog I saw.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Did it look like this? It was flipped. Not the greatest pic...and over 3 years old, so they may not be there anymore...


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Yea it was like that I think it had some black on its legs or sides too, it was really tiny about the size of a ff I only saw it because when I was looking at the moss, I saw a "speck of dirt" start jumping.


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> George,
> 
> You and I know each other......Do I think you are a serial frog snatcher? No. I think you made a post that could be highly misconstrued.
> 
> ...


I take offense to that even if I'm a year older 
Anywho, I like the idea of the frogs being free roaming- but I do think it is rather dangerous for the frogs... my family is driving through their on holiday soon and I'm going to see if I can convince them to let us go to the aquarium.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I guarantee that you will love the acutal standing exhibits of frogs as well. The upper rainforest area is undeniably cool but the overall experience is great.

Highly recommend for the fish and the frogs. Then, when you are done, go next door to the Barnes and Noble bookstore and check out the massive freshwater planted display on the second floor.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I think you would love the aquarium. The fish and reef tanks are really great, and the frogs and vivs are spectacular. Whenever I need inspiration for a new tank, I just go there. They also have this really cool exhibit currently with all kinds of jellyfish, and the dolphin show is something the whole family would enjoy. Anyway, here are some pics I took of the other frogs in the enclosures:
azureiventris (I'm looking at getting some after seeing these)









orange basti









calling pumilio









casti (I really liked the casti/ galac enclosure, once when I was there I even saw a casti transporting tads)


















galac


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## winyfrog (May 30, 2009)

I will have to make a point to visit this aquarium. I would love to see the frogs in a larger (more natural environment) Thanks for the info.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

winyfrog said:


> I will have to make a point to visit this aquarium. I would love to see the frogs in a larger (more natural environment) Thanks for the info.


I think you would like it....it's a great zoo / aquarium and inner harbour Baltimore is nice in the summer as well.


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