# Water Quality in Vivarium, Effect on Plants



## Cmirbach (Feb 8, 2007)

I have been doing alot of research on different fertilizers, trace element quantity in tap water, and general water quality in terms of their effects on plant growth. I am also a just short of my degree in Biology so i have a pretty good grasp on the inner workings of plant cells. However, one plant can be as different from another on the cellular level as a human is different from a fish. I am starting this thread to discuss the use of fertilizers, especially for starting a viv without any frogs in it yet, the issue of calcium and magnesium (soft vs hard water) and the build up of other metals and salts in a vivarium which can be very detremental to plant growth yet escape notice because of the lack of obvious symptoms. also, MOSS, everyone says it grows soooo slow, mine does too, i believe it is partly due to its higher sensitivity to water quality (besides their naturally slow growth rates) 
Does anyone use any commercial products to introduce trace elements (such as iron, zinc, copper), use water softeners, or have an indepth knowledge of botony. if so, please discuss these issues here!
P.S. Im not going to buy an RO unit right now... too expensive and removes trace elements too well.


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## skronkykong (Jan 1, 2007)

I use a standard aquarium/aquatic plant fertilizer every few weeks as directed. I don't have it in front of me right now so I'm not for sure what's in it but I know it is specifically for elements like the ones you discussed. I put it in the large water portion of my tank for the aquatic plants and I imagine it circulates itself throughout the tank by way of the waterfalls. My java moss seems to be growing faster since I started using it, but it might also have been just getting established.


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## Cmirbach (Feb 8, 2007)

Nice, thank you


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2007)

Having natural decomposers and decomposing material in the tank has to be able to help. Dead food items, frog feces, and decomposing leaves should all contibute to feeding the plants.

Thank you for bringing up the subject of accumulating salts. I see it in my potted plants all the time, but I have never seen it in a vivarium. As a result I have never considered it. I would assume to adding too many man made fertilizers is the main cause of accumulating salts in the soil. Just my guess.


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## Cmirbach (Feb 8, 2007)

I agree, i have done a little searching around for fertilizers that contain almost everything a plant needs except for calcium and magnesium, which are the salts i was referring to (biggest cause of deposits on glass and can build up quickly to effect pH and plant health) but from what i can see, the only option is to buy a bunch of different fertilizers that only contain one or two plant nutrients in them, which is annoying and pricey for something should be an insignificant concern. 
anyways, i just went out to walmart and bought 3 generic 2.5 gallon jugs of water that say they have been filtered by, i quote "carbon filtration, RO, UV treatment, Micron Filtration, and ozonation" for ONLY 4 dollars. they should last me at least 2 months as i only have about 8 gallons of standing water in my 50 gallon vivarium. one thing i have to take into account now is adding the proper minerals and trace elements... but at least im now in control and not my local tap water supplier!! Now i need to figure out the right stuff to put in...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you increase the lighting then your moss will grow more quickly... 
I have to thin the moss back from plants in some terraria as it will overgrow the plants... 

Ed


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## Cmirbach (Feb 8, 2007)

i cant really increase the lighting anymore theres no room left, im already running 165 watts of PC flourescents on it (1-55w 8000k for blue effect, 2-55w 6500k full spectrums), and its only a 50 gallon breeder style aquarium, the plants are only 8 to 16 inches, some even closer, from the lights. i agree though, if you dont have enough light that will certainly slow your moss growth. another note, i put my moss in about a month ago, so its still getting its footing, im sure it will take off, i just want to make sure the water quality is the best it can be for the best growth i can get.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Forgive me here, as I'm not exactly sure what it is you're hunting for.
Wouldn't even know where to start on this. The detail could easily fill a 15 page thread.

I'll try to set off on the salt end, and TRY to keep it mostly basic. For now.



Cmirbach said:


> I have been doing alot of research on different fertilizers, trace element quantity in tap water, and general water quality in terms of their effects on plant growth. I am also a just short of my degree in Biology so i have a pretty good grasp on the inner workings of plant cells. However, one plant can be as different from another on the cellular level as a human is different from a fish.


That's kind of an interesting analogy although inside out when comparing plant structure.
I would think if you were looking at things in the most basic of levels, the similarities between the (apparently different) two would be more profound than all (if ANY real) varying differences. Then I have to remind myself you're talking cellular. But still mainly relative, some just seem different due to advancements in short cutting of cell task.



> I am starting this thread to discuss the use of fertilizers, especially for starting a viv without any frogs in it yet, the issue of calcium and magnesium (soft vs hard water) and the build up of other metals and salts in a vivarium which can be very detremental to plant growth yet escape notice because of the lack of obvious symptoms. also, MOSS, everyone says it grows soooo slow, mine does too, i believe it is partly due to its higher sensitivity to water quality (besides their naturally slow growth rates)


I have no idea what moss you're talking about, but must not be java or MANY of the tropical mosses. I would think some of the fastest growing plants would be mosses/the related.



> Does anyone use any commercial products to introduce trace elements (such as iron, zinc, copper), use water softeners, or have an indepth knowledge of botony. if so, please discuss these issues here!
> P.S. Im not going to buy an RO unit right now... too expensive and removes trace elements too well.


[/quote]
If you're using commercial products, more likely it to contain inorganic salts. I'll consider this for now and if you feel the need later to broaden it to all, we can do that.

Very little of the salts in these fertilizers are actually utilized by the plants. Much less than the ratio the fert. contains. The main use of these salts/levels they are is to adjust the conductivity of the water to a more optimum level, quickly/momentarily. Much like PH it needs to remain neutral for optimum results. The ferts. having these are not really intended to be used in a soil media because of this. Or at least shouldn't be, though many probably are. Salts are one of (if not) the slowest leaching compounds soil will ever have to deal w/. It takes hundreds of years (in wet conditions) if not thousands/millions of years to leach through just a ft. of soil.

This would be 'bad' if they are continually added and the plants can only use so little. Eventually compacting/bonding the soil rendering it incapable of maintaining any moisture. The micro fauna/flora would move on (if it had the chance) or either die in these conditions (arthropods,algae, fungi, bacteria, achea, and even enzymes). Now you might think this to be 'good' given viv conditions, but the plants would disagree. The soil would be left completely/mostly lifeless and no nutrients would be added naturally until the soil reconditioned itself long after. When levels reach past neutral something begins to occur known as "nutrient lockout". Regardless of having nutrients present or not. As this increases it just becomes more pronounced and further inhibits any uptake, eventually starving the plant(s). If you need/want to know why/how this happens I can explain that later. This is the case in soiless media. In soil it would never reach this point as the plant would've quit growing/having died far prior as the soil could not support roots or even any water for that matter.

Something to add quickly w/out going too deep.
If the PH is skewed one way, due to mineral abundance or lack thereof, the sodium will combine w/ (some of) these out of ratio elements altering (quickening/slowing) the leaching process. For example in basic soil with high Sulphur (not actually "basic", but works the same way), Magnesium, Moly., etc. content, will speed the process due to the salt sharing the properties of, which doesn't leach 'fast', but faster than salt would left on its own. This would/could only happen if the ratio of the elements never drop and is consistently added/renewed to the soil. Elements like Magnese (not magnesium), iron, ect. with an opposing low PH would/should not effect the leaching process, unless the ratio is so skewed it changes the property of the soil as a whole. Neutral Elements like Nitrogen, would also NOT effect the leaching process as salts cannot bind w/ it. Though having more or less of it can change the soil's property/bioactivity causing things to work 'unexpectedly'. Calcium would work similarly due to this reason, most likely speeding the leaching if soil is well activated, dispersing the salts.

Having a heavy ended ratio will inhibit the uptake of the elements by the plants on the opposite end. Or an artificially induced PH using single compounds.

Hope that's somewhere along the lines of what you were looking for.

Getting late/off track/out of focus, and will stop there for now.


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## Cmirbach (Feb 8, 2007)

I should get a course credit for having read that... im going to have to re-read it tommorow when my brain is working again (just studied for 6 hours strait) before discussing it.


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## Cmirbach (Feb 8, 2007)

To be honest im confused about how to apply what you have said to managing the water composition in my vivarium. first of all, your right about my analogy, i was over simplifying and made a mistake in saying cellular structure when i should have said tissue structure i was going for the difference between lungs and gills. A horrible analogy now that i think about it, what i was really going for was to try and express that plants have more requirements other than the usually described lighting level and soil acidity and moisture levels, such as water composition (in a vivarium controls the soil composition and vice versa). im trying to figure out the best water composition for the standing water under my false bottom which is dripped (via a quite nice rain system i have set up) over my plants. I understand what you are saying about salts not leaching well and the problem with their build-up in soil. I understand that you are talking about salts in general not just NaCl. I do not, however, understand what you are saying about inorganic salts, because they are inorganic (i know what organic and inorganic means) i am assuming they can not be utilized by the plants, but do they have NO effect on the plants and are therefor inconsiquential? also, you say that calcium speed the leeching process (good for keeping soil from binding and locking out moisture and nutrients), but is calcium good or bad for tropical (central/south american) plants, i have read that high calcium and magnesium levels are bad for these plants. I also understand that having a high ratio of one compound over others will inhibit the plants uptake of the lower concentration compounds. so what i have taken from that statement is that it is beneficial to have soft water and have relatively equal parts of all trace elements, salts, nutrients etc. is this correct? basically what i have gotten, to put in application to my water, from your post, is that i do not want salts dripping onto my soil because they will slow nutrient and important trace elements from leeching, is this correct? 
I am going to soften my water with a commercial water softener resin, and then only add RO water from now on, is this a good idea, or will i be denying the plants neccessary nutrients/trace elements?


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

I'm thankful I stopped when I did.



> Cmirbach said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest im confused about how to apply what you have said to managing the water composition in my vivarium.
> ...


The things that spur off the 'optimum', tend to be the simplest and the most over looked/typically/"commonly" least understood/apparent. Ex: energized environments, gases, amino compounds, 'sugars' vitamins, hormones, symbiotic relations, light refraction (not reflection though that increases growth near 300% just alone), nutrient/water quality/age......................................................................................................................................................................................................



> im trying to figure out the best water composition for the standing water under my false bottom which is dripped (via a quite nice rain system i have set up) over my plants.


You'll never even get close to "best" w/ standing water. It's hard to imagine (w/out seeing) what an impact consistent and well oxygenated soil/air/water has on plant vitality. Uncanny the (time duration) comparison(s) WILL be.



> I understand what you are saying about salts not leaching well and the problem with their build-up in soil. I understand that you are talking about salts in general not just NaCl. I do not, however, understand what you are saying about inorganic salts, because they are inorganic (i know what organic and inorganic means) i am assuming they can not be utilized by the plants, but do they have NO effect on the plants and are therefor inconsiquential?


They ARE used. Just as in the 'same' way organic salt(s), in fact more so than. I shouldn't say same, but hopefully you get the point. The difference is where/what they're derived from. Inorganic salts are harvested from "non-living" environments (at least in the sense of what's considered living in a "conventional" view). Beds. Or acid bases (rendered mainly from industrial concoctions). Basically w/ most inorganic salts, in place of sodium (more often than not) is either something of metal(s) or basic single elements in crystalline form when combined, w/ the same basic properties/reactions to each other/the environment as NaCl. Not utilized/absorbed by the plant(s) the same way, but stimulates the plant(s) through the similar ionization it creates in the environment. In place of chloride (sometimes it is chloride, but rarely) commonly nitrate is used. Chlorine is a "gas", chloride is (considered) a "solid", nitrogen is a "gas", nitrate is (considered) a "solid". 'in normal conditions on Earth. The truth of the matter is there is no 'real' solid, what makes 'seem' AS a solid is the 'jacket' the environment/life holds it in (time pending), a crystal, making it accessible to be converted organically. Then again there are some plants so far evolved/advanced, they can take short cuts in creating their own from a "gaseous" form and covert to their needs.

Every plants has it's own preferred ratio of what it needs to grow optimally. When they comprise these fertilizers, it's mostly just guess work on what plants they think you might be growing and settle on a medium/common ratio. Even if you happen to grow those plants w/ that required ratio, if the rest of the environment isn't exact to those ratios, the plants may not use that exact ratio given. This leaves everything not used, making those things toxic because of the continually skewed ratio/ their overabundance. Again if they're in salt form it will also alter/increase the conductivity and bind elements in the soil.

In nature true salt(s) remain devoid/separate of the common required elements for a plant to grow. Although all plants need both sodium and chloride to grow efficiently, in very miniscule amounts.

In the case of industrial farts. the salts are the nutrients as well. NPK+ are all in a salt form. I could give a never ending list, but one ex. of the top of my head is KN/potassium nitrate, or FeN, CuN...



> also, you say that calcium speed the leeching process (good for keeping soil from binding and locking out moisture and nutrients), but is calcium good or bad for tropical (central/south american) plants, i have read that high calcium and magnesium levels are bad for these plants.


No, it's not "bad". All plants use/need it. Depending on the plant and its growth habit it will either require more or less of it. By growth habit/type I mean to say, is it vining, compact, in rosette, woody, herbaceous, terrestrial, aquatic, epiphytic...? This is what will determine what a plant is going to need/use to form the parts it's most inclined to grow (for that period/or entire life). Of course w/ anything if it is in greater amounts than needed it will become toxic and hinder the availability/absorption of other nutrients (present or not). Life stages of plants at certain intervals needs to be considered as well. As in all areas of the world (currently, but unfortunately not likely last as is) naturally seasons and precip. type(snow rain)/amount of those seasons changes the PH of the environment in turn changing the availability of nutrient abound. Plants react (naturally) to this not only through/w/ light duration but by having adapted specified stages of growth to take advantage of what is available at the time given, as to not impede its production w/ time. Snow is more acidic than rain, having heavy rain period (tropics) is going to slightly decrease the PH (of both the soil and water) for that time. But long term water cannot really effect the PH of soil if it is active and replenishing itself, or if the abundant remain abundant/not utilized.



> I also understand that having a high ratio of one compound over others will inhibit the plants uptake of the lower concentration compounds.


Only if those elements dictate PH. Not all, in fact fewer than half. And some are neither alkaline or acidic but stand neutral.



> so what i have taken from that statement is that it is beneficial to have soft water and have relatively equal parts of all trace elements, salts, nutrients etc. is this correct?


"Soft" water is a general term that can mean many differing water qualities.

But in the case of recreating a dart habitat, soft would be preferred over hard. No doubt. But there many different things that can give the same effect of "soft" water. Some of those things may be in much lower concentrations in that environment, than yours, but you could still have comparable softness.

In nature ratios are not equal. Plants HAVE evolved to use the ratios given for their regions (all being slightly different) to the highest efficiency possible. Some still working towards the correct (introduced invasive's/non-indigenous/non-primitive 'planted'), but all are evolving as things never stop changing. Due to human intervention they are changing more quickly trying to compensate for a faster changing environment.



> basically what i have gotten, to put in application to my water, from your post, is that i do not want salts dripping onto my soil because they will slow nutrient and important trace elements from leeching, is this correct?


No, just "inorganic" salts. By adding 'organics'/feeding the viv you will be including all the needed 'organic'/true salts. You can even jump start a little if you wish w/ the addition of micro fauna and feeding those with a little spirulina to quicken the process. If you're using quality foods, trace elements/mineral/micro/macro will follow in more or less correct amount to each other. Consistent draining/adding will stabilize these levels as long as it's not being over/under drained. W/ age the soil may hold excess, but if the soil remains healthy/heavily active you know it's not being impaired. Of course you can't compare your observation day to day, but from the start to the present, always refering back to the start.


> I am going to soften my water with a commercial water softener resin, and then only add RO water from now on, is this a good idea, or will i be denying the plants neccessary nutrients/trace elements?


[/quote:2dauap2i]

It's the better way to go. Your plants will grow more than just well. If you end up adding what you 'thought' you needed from the start, you'll regret it when you can no longer 'seem' to keep your plant(s) under control, and your viv becomes a constant torn up mess. All the nitrate in fertilizers are just 'fillers' when in excess, not contributing to the plants overall well being/health/vitality/strength. Like calories to us. Just to make them 'appear' healthier by making it grow faster/bigger. Though not w/out limit, but unlike most nutrients, the common (NPK) can have skewed ratios in turn deciding for the plants on what structures to focus growth/spent photocatalitic energy.

If you want to get serious and know the exact amounts of salts you have/need, I suggest you invest towards getting a TDS meter.

If you can digest this by tommarow (today), we'll be on roll. Have to stop though for now to make sure that has a chance of happening.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Khamul1of9 said:


> Thank you for bringing up the subject of accumulating salts. I see it in my potted plants all the time, but I have never seen it in a vivarium.


You would never be able to notice it (visually) in a wet environment like a viv. At least not on/in the soil, but possibly as deposites on the glass.



> As a result I have never considered it. I would assume to adding too many man made fertilizers is the main cause of accumulating salts in the soil. Just my guess.


[/quote]

'GOOD' instincts. :!:


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## Cmirbach (Feb 8, 2007)

Thank you! im so glad your putting so much effort into helping me with this, and my understanding of the subject has more than doubled since your first post! plus you corrected alot of mis-information that i got from internet sites of the not so reliable sort. I understand everything you have said in your last post, it helped fill in all the gaps that lead to some confusion after the first post. some notes about my vivarium: in the area of micro/macro fauna, i have noticed wood lice(or something very similar), springtails, 3mm long tiny white worms, and even a small centipede that somehow managed to get in, i have not spotted any bacteria though... joke. I was wondering if it might be a good idea to see the vivarium with a little soil and leaf litter from my backyard/woods to introduce more micro fauna, or is this unnecessary or potentially dangerous? also a note on my water: its not quite "standing", its cycled by a waterfall and a drip system. THANK YOU so much for all the detailed information.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Now here comes the burn. Let's see, your total for this course session comes tooooo.... $5k. Double for any additional readers serviced. All forms of payment can be adjusted, I'll happily accept ALL your credit cards. You get a 25% discount if you compensate the debt with non-imprinted/stamped gold, silver, or platinum (preferred) cuts.



Cmirbach said:


> plus you corrected alot of mis-information that i got from internet sites of the not so reliable sort.


Rediculous who can put up a site (anybody). As why I will never have one. Sad as many could get info upfront w/out having to filter through all the jargon. That and I'd be taken to another desert, to remain.

If you think about, there's quite a lot to market by for commercial distributors, by only giving you a piece of the pie. Most of these things they sell are just byproducts from plants (not plants), that would just end up having to be discarded one way or another, in turn costing them 'money' (their 'effort', the peoples money) to do so. Unforunately the same goes for a long list of other things, byproducts from nuclear/power plants (depleted uranium....), petrol products (plastic.....), mining (mercury.....), commercial farmers (death/destruction, depleted/forever useless waste land/ your soon to be new neighborhood)..........................................................................

Then there are the 'good'/consevative who follow the practices. Breweries (yeast, feed....)...

Then again, I could just be simply wrong and their right. :?: 

Would you mind pointing out an instance were you recieved the "mis-info."?
I would be 'intrigued'.



> I understand everything you have said in your last post, it helped fill in all the gaps that lead to some confusion after the first post.


Most posts never end up even getting that far. I often become disuaded/aggravated. You should consider yourself VERY lucky, even if it's mostly 'bad'.



> some notes about my vivarium: in the area of micro/macro fauna, i have noticed wood lice(or something very similar), springtails, 3mm long tiny white worms, and even a small centipede that somehow managed to get in, i have not spotted any bacteria though... joke. I was wondering if it might be a good idea to see the vivarium with a little soil and leaf litter from my backyard/woods to introduce more micro fauna, or is this unnecessary or potentially dangerous?


Looks like you may have more than enough to create decent biodiversity. 

I wouldn't condone doing so, unless I see the site for myself. No saying really if it's ok. If it's anywhere w/in teens of miles of a populated area, I would say no. Now if you go hiking/biking somewhere 'remote' and it's high/above populated run off, it might be fine, but again, there is no certainty on that. If it's 'clean', it might be a great thing to do, but everyone has differing ideals of what 'clean' really is. Humans aren't clean, that's all you really need to realize to make a decision. And any other animals near by/in contact w/ humans or their junk are likely to contract nasties and spread things further beyond human boundries. If you know where to look and use 'good' judgement/'common sense' (what's common?) you may stumble upon a (much) 'cleaner' source than the sources many people typically use for substrates(i.e. coco, sphag, bark, sand, clay). Even then you can't say for sure what passed through, when, where it deficated, what it may have been carrying. Also the fauna naturally in the soil is going to be different than in a darts tropical environment. For example small temperate centipedes, slugs/snails which will eat eggs if allowed/conditioned to. You can also get harmful/common nematodes (many species) that specialize feeding on plant roots, others that hunt other micro fauna (including other nematodes), and even worse, parasitizing nematodes that live their larval stages free range in the soil until they come upon a suitable host, potentially your frog(s). Being from different regions (if they could infest the frog) the frog/parasite may not be adapted to cope w/ the foreign structure compounding both the frog and parasite to death. Poor parasite.

You cloud bake the soil first but if theres toxin/chemical present it won't do a lot of 'good'.

Leaves wouldn't/shouldn't be that much of a problem, but still I would follow the guidelines to obtaining them from a 'clean' source. Not your neighbors tree etc. unless it's a mostly unpopulated area and the landscape isn't treated artifically by humans. Ex: a backyard forest might be fine if it's unscaved by people. Boil them first to kill any pathogens and removes any accumilated residue from rain/bird/bug shit.



> also a note on my water: its not quite "standing", its cycled by a waterfall and a drip system. THANK YOU so much for all the detailed information.


Nice, should work great.

Appreciate the appreciation.


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## Cmirbach (Feb 8, 2007)

im gonna have alot of free time next week (right now im finishing up mid-terms and papers) so ill try and find as much of the crap i read about as i can and send you links. thanks again


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