# Chow time...



## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

I tried to get my imitators to raise pum tadpoles, but i think i frightened them to much when i made the egg switch. Anyways, these pum tadpoles are from eggs that were laid on the 12th of February. I've been raising them on chicken egg whites whipped with finely fround frog bites from my mortar and pestle. I usually feed them every day or every other day. i've lost 1 of the 5 but here are the 3 of the 4 eating tonights special. Since i have 5 tadpoles that were just deposited, another clutch of 6 and another clutch of 11 in my chirique tank i think i'll have a bunch more to raise soon as well.




























i can only hope that a few will morph out, but so far they look good


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2006)

The poll is a bit confusing. It isn't really a yes or no question. Why do the imitators have to raise the pum tads? Are the pum parents failing to raise them themselves?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

no, my parents raised 4 froglets in their last cycle. i just wanted to see if i could trick facultative eggfeeders into raising obligate eggfeeder tadpoles, from the egg stage. i know i can do it if i switch tadpoles. The imitator parents failed to transport any tadpoles, so i started raising them myself. I put the poll there because i have seen a lot of discussion between people about artificially raising pumilio. Some feel that eggfeeding may be at least partially a "learned" trait and shouldn't be bred out by artificial rearing, although i'd tend to disagree about it being learned. Parental care is also one of pumilios biggest charms. I just wanted to see what other people thought about trying to raise large number of pumilio artificially. Although i'll be lucky to get 1 or 2 tadpoles morph out these 4 and the 11 or so i'll probably harvest from my chirique tank after i let them deposit the next 6, then they'll have deposited somwhere around 10 tadpoles.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2006)

Ohh, an experiment. Sounds interesting. I think I've heard of different species of eggfeeders feeding different tadpoles, but I haven't seen anything substantial on faculative frogs feeding obligative tads. Keep us posted with your results


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Hasn't this been done already? I remember reading a few years ago before Pumilio really took hold that people had tried this with little sucess. If you can do it then I say go for it.



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## Guest (Mar 12, 2006)

Sorry to be a downer, but Ive read and heard that it's nearly impossible to raise Pum. tadpoles off of chicken egg. Id say go for the imitator raising approach, as I've heard of this working sometimes.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

tfraleigh nearly impossible is still possible if hes doing it every day or every other day + tad bite I think he may break a new little line of obligatory feeding techniques! Keep it up NCSUdart i am ecited to see the results!


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

i'm well aware that this is nothing new, i'm just happy that i can actually see them all eating the chicken eggs, and they have been growing over the last 2 weeks. and i know it usually has little success (which is why i said i'd be happy to get 1 or 2 out of the 16 tadpoles i'll be trying this with) although most people i've seen have either used auratus eggs or chicken yolk. I haven't seen anybody take egg whites and whip them with extremely find ground frog bites. my hope is that they ingest enough nutrients from the frog bites while consuming the whites, since i believe whites by themselves would provide little proper nutrition. Basically i was just taking pictures, came pumilio feeding time and i had the camera ready while they all started devouring the egg whites, that and i'm practicing for when i get some rarer pums. I'm looking for some darklands and colons in the next year, eventually some blue jeans when i get the cash and i'm trying out artificial techniques as well as surrogate parenting like people have been doing with bluejeans/bastimentos comboes


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I've tried pumilio with imitators once or twice without success, that's not to say that it can't be done though. Don't be discouraged, I had a lot of people tell me it wasn't worthwhile trying to artificially raise blue jeans. Lucky for me I didn't listen to them. It doesn't make sense to me that egg feeding is learned. I think it's an inborn behavior.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^ i agree, eggfeeding is logically an inborn behavior. i'm glad your Bastis are raising your BJs with success and your auratus raised tads are doing well. more than i can hope for with what i'm doing here, but there is always a slim chance. at least they are still feeding, i did water changes and fed them tonight. mmm, delicous egg whites. If only my auratus would start laying so i could raise them on auratus eggs like you have.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It depends on what you mean by learned. Typically with a lot of animals that rear thier own offspring to some extent there is a learning curve for the female to get her "act together" and first litters or clutches often experience either high or total mortality. 

If you look in E.O. Wilson's book on Sociobiology there is an excellant discussion and some mathmatical models (if I remember correctly) that can help explain the risks in changing even genetically determined behaviors that facilitate reproductive behaviors. 

Ed


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I hear what you're saying but what doesn't make sense to me is that a tadpole can learn anything about what the female is doing and retain that until it is an adult and put in the same situation.

Do female monkey babies learn breast feeding when they are infants and then carry that memory and that's how they know to breast feed their young? I would think they learn that in social interaction with their "tribe". Is that what your saying that the froglets/frogs learn from other frogs in the group how to egg feed?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I hear what you're saying but what doesn't make sense to me is that a tadpole can learn anything about what the female is doing and retain that until it is an adult and put in the same situation. 

Do female monkey babies learn breast feeding when they are infants and then carry that memory and that's how they know to breast feed their young? I would think they learn that in social interaction with their "tribe". Is that what your saying that the froglets/frogs learn from other frogs in the group how to egg feed?" endsnip

While observing parenting behaviors as an infant and a juvenile can make a significant difference in parenting skills for primates, this is more the exception than the rule and anyway not appliciable for frogs. What I was referring to is that many first time parents that have parental rearing do not succeed with the first litter (or even more than one litter) as the instinctual responses often do not fully engage or engage sufficiently to allow for successful rearing of the offspring. This is why there is often a high or total mortality in the first batch of offspring. 

Rearing through the use of facultive egg feeders will probably have little to no effect on the behaviors of the reared frogs however rearing the tads on artificial diets can have an effect as this can place an evolutionary pressure to drop those behaviors and simply pump out eggs (obviously the frogs that try to rear the eggs are going to divert resources to this and not to making more eggs, so they produce less eggs and pass on less offspring....) I think that it is okay to bolster the population in this manner but I think that large scale rearing artifically may not be a good thing.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

I was wondering if the failure to successfully raise tads by pumilo parents was a failing due to one sex or both? I mean are the males not calling or are the females not responding.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Ed, I think I misunderstood your point before, I think now I understand.

So if the parents are left to their own devices to raise what they will raise naturally and we simply steal a few tads to raise by alternative means to increase production, we are likely not doing any damage, is that correct?

BTW - my point was not to try to compare primates to amphibians, more to see if I was understanding your point, which again I was not. Thanks for the good info.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "
So if the parents are left to their own devices to raise what they will raise naturally and we simply steal a few tads to raise by alternative means to increase production, we are likely not doing any damage, is that correct? endsnip 

Yes, this is the case as you would be able to see which are successful parents and you would be rearing offspring from the sucessful parents meaning that the offspring would be likely to carry the genes. If you have a successful alternative rearing technique pulling tads can increase the production and reduce the stress on the female who is performing the rearing of the remaining tads. 

snip "BTW - my point was not to try to compare primates to amphibians, more to see if I was understanding your point, which again I was not. " endsnip 

I thought that might have been the case but you picked one of the main groups where parental behaviors are partially learned so I wanted to make sure that was the case. But I am glad you asked me to clarify it some more... 

snip" Thanks for the good info." endsnip 

Your welcome. I'm glad I could help. 

snip "I was wondering if the failure to successfully raise tads by pumilo parents was a failing due to one sex or both? I mean are the males not calling or are the females not responding." endsnip 

I am far from an expert on egg feeders (so I could be wrong here) but the females may egg feed without the male calling. I would suspect that the main issue may be with the female not feeding sufficiently (which may also be nutritionally caused if the female doesn't have sufficient calories) or the diet is insufficient in some nutrient so the tads don't morph successfully (but as I said I'm not the expert on these guys). 

Ed


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

this thread has turned into a lot of good info.

well the 4 are still doing well, they've really taken to the egg whites, eating as soon as i place them in the water now. i let the parents deposit 6 more tad poles this week and then removed the final 11 eggs. i lost 2 eggs (bad) and 2 tadpoles prematurely hatched while i was moving them. they are still alive however, so maybe they are developed enough. the other 7 are looking ready to hatch, so i'll have another 7 to add to the original 4, plus if the other 2 survive their premature hatching.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

The biparental care in egg feeding process only has been seen in vanzolinii as far as I know. Egg feeding has evolved in darts at least twice, one in histrionicus group and another in some amazonean thumbnails. The egg laying process in pumilio and histrionicus is not activated by the calls of the male, but for the "tail vibrating" of the tadpoles


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

could you please explain me what is the "eggs white"? You know, I speak spanish and I dont understand some things...


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

ColombianFrogger said:


> could you please explain me what is the "eggs white"? You know, I speak spanish and I dont understand some things...


Egg white is a reference to the portion of the egg that does not contain the yolk...typcially this clear material is protein (ovalbumin) rich and turns white when moderate heat is applied.

Bill


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

clara de huevo

-solly


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

ok, now it become more interesting...

it was thought that egg yolk was acepted because the similarities in lipid and proteins profiles. However, the absortion rates in egg yolk are poor (maybe are higher in eggs with slightly different lipids profiles, as in organic eggs or omega 3 eggs). But eggs white has little or not at all lipids. If the tadpoles you used acepted the dusted frog bits, it contains carbohydrates, but supposedly they cant eat carbohydrates because doesnt have any enzime for that. But again, they have not died...

Maybe chicken eggs just have some similar components that imitate in certain way the chemiotaxis found in frog eggs by tadpoles. So what if we mix the white eggs with aminoacids and fish oils for enhance the growth rates? :roll: 


I need to sleep :wink:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Have they been tested to see if they can't process carbohydrates or is this just supposition as they do not feed on plant matter in the wild? 
In any case, it is possible that they are not digesting the carbohydrate portion of the bites and are simply passing this as a form of fiber. 
The protiens in the egg white and the bites should be digestiable. The thing I would be concerned about would be insufficient levels of vitamin A and/or biotin are going to be problems in the long run. The bites may not have sufficient vitamin A (as the white is deficinet in the fat soluble vitamins) and the egg white contains an enzyme that breaks down biotin and has been known to cause this deficiency in people... 

Ed


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Ed,

Is there anything you would recommend adding to the mix to supplement vit. A?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^^ Ed, i may try whipping in a small amount of herptivite in the next batch of egg whites i whip up, which should correspond to the next 7 tads hatching. i'll look at how they do compared to the previous 4 with the addition of more vitamins


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Herptevite actually does not supply vitamin A as retinol. It supplies it as betacarotene. As these are obligate egg feeders, I have some concern that there may be some issues with the conversion as typically in eggs, vitamin A is supplied as lutein (in bird eggs for example) and as retinol.... 

This is why this is an interesting topic. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This maybe a case where some trials with a human supplement may be warranted. 

Ed


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

Experiments has been done in Germany adding biotine to the egg yolk, and it doesnt enhances the growing rates in the tads. If you see the digestive system of an obligatory egg feeder tadpole, you'll see that their intestine is very diferent from the omnivorous tadpoles. They only have a stomach sac, so its supposed that they only can produce few kinds of enzymes to break a limited number of proteins, and the quick grow noted after every meal suggests a quick absorption of the food. 

In experiments comparing the fatty acid composition of egg yolk Vs frog eggs in Chirixalus eiffingeri, an obligatory egg feeder from China, the researchers suggest a direct incorporation of the fatty acids without modification in the body of the tadpole.

The reason for me to think that they doesnt have the enzimes for carbohydrates is that in a such highly specializated feeding system, the enzimes for break anything that doesnt come in the original feed eggs are rare or unexistent... If they would have the enzymes, they didnt need to eat just feed eggs-- the egg feeding in obligatory egg feeders is not only a behavioral adaptation, but a strong physical adaptation in tadpoles--. The mouthparts of those frogs are also diferent from the ones seen in omnivorous or carnivorous tadpoles. 

I dont know if tadpoles of any species are able to digest celulose (the main portion of carbohydrates found in the plant matter) but that would be achieved by the help of bacteries in the intestine, not by their own enzymes, as any vertebrate produce cellulase (cellulose breaking enzime) by theirselves. Again, obligatory egg feeders doesnt have long enough intestines for allow the work of bacteries as cows in the rumen or horses in intestines. 

Maybe eggs white (chemiotactic component and proteins) + dusted spiruline (proteins) + esential fish oils (fatty acids) ?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some of my comments and questions maybe due to language barriers so bear with me, I also tend to ask and state things bluntly so don't be offended. 


snip "Experiments has been done in Germany adding biotine to the egg yolk, and it doesnt enhances the growing rates in the tads." endsnip

But the problems with biotin are not a result of the yolk but the whites. The enzyme is contained in the white of the egg and not the yolk. I would't expect the addition to the yolk to make a difference. 

snip" If you see the digestive system of an obligatory egg feeder tadpole, you'll see that their intestine is very diferent from the omnivorous tadpoles. They only have a stomach sac, so its supposed that they only can produce few kinds of enzymes to break a limited number of proteins, and the quick grow noted after every meal suggests a quick absorption of the food. " endsnip

But this doesn't indicate that they cannot digest and absorb carbohydrates as simple sugars appear to be able to be absorbed over over mucous membranes much less in the digestive system (otherwise do soaks in sugar solutions supply energy to debilitated frogs?). In mammals, carbohydrate degredation begins in saliva and not in the digestive tract. More complex carbs (such as soluable fiber) are degraded in the lower digestive tract.. This is why I am not sure we can rule out digestion of some of the basic carbs (yes to more complex ones as the bacterial fermentation is not available) which would be available in the product both in the mix and available through the heat of the extrusion process that creates the bites. 


snip "In experiments comparing the fatty acid composition of egg yolk Vs frog eggs in Chirixalus eiffingeri, an obligatory egg feeder from China, the researchers suggest a direct incorporation of the fatty acids without modification in the body of the tadpole." endsnip

I would expect this to be true. 

snip "The reason for me to think that they doesnt have the enzimes for carbohydrates is that in a such highly specializated feeding system, the enzimes for break anything that doesnt come in the original feed eggs are rare or unexistent... If they would have the enzymes, they didnt need to eat just feed eggs-- the egg feeding in obligatory egg feeders is not only a behavioral adaptation, but a strong physical adaptation in tadpoles--. The mouthparts of those frogs are also diferent from the ones seen in omnivorous or carnivorous tadpoles." endsnip

Yes but both omniverous and carniverous tadpoles are known to supplement thier nutritional requirements via buccal feeding so obligate egg feeders could potentially do this and consume bateria and protists as a food source (which would not be readily apparent in gut contents as non commensuals) so to rule out wothout testing the ability to digest an item based on its mouth parts is a problem. This also doesn't mean that they wouldn't need to consume eggs as the adaptations in the gut structure would prohibit the breakdown of algae and plant cells rendering them depending on easily assimilated nutrient sources but it also still doesn't rule out the digestion and absorbtion of simple carbohydrates. 

snip "I dont know if tadpoles of any species are able to digest celulose (the main portion of carbohydrates found in the plant matter) but that would be achieved by the help of bacteries in the intestine, not by their own enzymes, as any vertebrate produce cellulase (cellulose breaking enzime) by theirselves. Again, obligatory egg feeders doesnt have long enough intestines for allow the work of bacteries as cows in the rumen or horses in intestines. " endsnip

There are two different forms of cellulose digestion in animals. There are foregut ruminents and hindgut ruminents and these have very different digestion rates and length of gut. For example, reptiles are hind gut ruminents (as are horses) and have a significantly reduced gut length than when compared to cows. Basically bacteria live in the lower GI tract and digest some cellulose and other soluble fiber sources rendering nutrient sources available to the animal. I would not be surprised if there are tadpoles that are hind gut ruminents but this doesn't sound like the case with obligate egg feeders. But I am not talking about complex carbohdrates such as cellulose. If you are referring to the need to degrade the cellulose to access the nutritional content of the plant cells themself, this degredation will occur during the creation of the bites themselves as the extrusion process should generate enough pressure and temperature to break up any cell structures. 

snip Maybe eggs white (chemiotactic component and proteins) + dusted spiruline (proteins) + esential fish oils (fatty acids) ?" endsnip 

This may be a viable source. But I would expect that the sprirulina may need to have the cell walls broken to allow for the absorbtion of the nutrients. 

Ed


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

> Some of my comments and questions maybe due to language barriers so bear with me, I also tend to ask and state things bluntly so don't be offended.


Im not at all offended... and excuse me for my poor english. in fact is really great to have such a good topic!  

Yes, I agree with you with the sugars, and I forgot to explain this. I only cited cellulose because the simple carbohydrates (starch-- not simple but easier to break--, fructose, sacarose) arent stored normally in the phytotelmatas of bromeliads or in the leaves, but in fruits or bulbs (as in potatoes), not always available to the tadpoles.

I didnt meant to say that just because they have modified mouthparts they couldnt eat anything but eggs. Its only a way to tell they have greatly modified tadpole bodies, and the egg feeding is not only a behavioral but also physiological issue in that frogs. The tail is also very diferent (in the histrionicus group) and I've seen the tail vibrating in tadpoles. I have been using plastic frogs for simulate the egg feeding process in some of my frogs (as the puppets in Condor projects), so I hope they will keep the natural behavior in certain way. They also seems to accept easier the given food.

Daniel


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Good.. 

Okay here is the next round of comments for you

snip Yes, I agree with you with the sugars, and I forgot to explain this. I only cited cellulose because the simple carbohydrates (starch-- not simple but easier to break--, fructose, sacarose) arent stored normally in the phytotelmatas of bromeliads or in the leaves, but in fruits or bulbs (as in potatoes), not always available to the tadpoles. endsnip 

Hmm, to some extent yes, but there are plant debris that get trapped in these phytotelmata that are degraded by bacterial and fungal action. The action of these decomposers can make the carbohydrates available to the tadpoles either directly or indirectly (as these may then be consumed)... 

snip "I didnt meant to say that just because they have modified mouthparts they couldnt eat anything but eggs. Its only a way to tell they have greatly modified tadpole bodies, and the egg feeding is not only behavioral but also physiological issue in that frogs." endsnip 

I agree.... But we are discussing how far the physiology has changed and if it has changed sufficiently to prevent the digestion of the tadpole bites.... I think that the digestive enzymes in the tadpoles needs to be checked.... 

snip "The tail is also very diferent (in the histrionicus group) and I've seen the tail vibrating in tadpoles." I have been using plastic frogs for simulate the egg feeding process in some of my frogs (as the puppets in Condor projects), so I hope they will keep the natural behavior in certain way. They also seems to accept easier the given food." endsnip

I don't think that it makes a difference in imprinting but it may reduce the stress by causing the tadpoles to accept the food better. 

Ed


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

mmm... I was thinking
why dont mix the egg white with sera micron? at least you dont have to grind it...


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