# Leaf litter, a necessity ?



## Froggyboy (Nov 28, 2011)

I see them in every tank, are they a necessity ?


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## BurnsinTX (Nov 18, 2011)

Most people will say yes absolutely. Leaf litter is replicating the natural environment for the frogs giving them place to hunt/hide.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I would recommend at least a little bit of leaf litter in every tank.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

leaf litter provides additional hiding spaces, allows food for microfauna to consume, and provides humidity.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Froggyboy said:


> I see them in every tank, are they a necessity ?


Leaf litter isn't a necessity as for many years the standard was to grow moss as the ground cover but as the hobby came to a better understanding of the behaviors and needs of the frogs, leaf litter has come into use. This use of leaf litter allows for more natural behaviors of the frogs and it more closely replicates thier natural enviroment. The addition of leaf litter also tends to make frogs feel more secure (as they have lots of places where they can retreat) which can make a number of species much more bold. It also serves as a cover and nutrient source for microfauna which encourages the frogs to forage (increasing thier activity level) which helps with encouraging the frogs to be more bold. 

I use it and strongly recommend for other people to use it as well. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I strive for 2" plus of leaf litter over at least 75% of the surface.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Like Doug said, I like a nice thick layer. Some of my tanks far exceed 2" deep in places, one having it piled several inches deep against the back. This creates a surprising amount of usable space.


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## MA70Snowman (May 18, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I strive for 2" plus of leaf litter over at least 75% of the surface.


holy crap! I thought I was doing alright just having enough to cover the ground!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Actually, that's just the main part, like Epiphyte's mentioned, I also have spots piled much higher at the back.
If JimO is watching, he'll tell you he uses 4" deep! He's raising Obligates and trying for maximum microfauna breeding grounds


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## Froggyboy (Nov 28, 2011)

Ok, I´ll go for som leafs then. But what sort should I choose ?


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## Mer_ (Sep 11, 2011)

I love leaf litter!! Well not really but the frogs do, and as long as they are happy its all good. 

I use magnolia and oak in my vivs.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

The type of leaf is really more of a personal preference (as long as you don't choose a type of leaf that is poisonous to the frogs)... Many people, myself included, like magnolia and oak the best because both of those hold up longer. I also toss in some leaves that decay faster for microfauna food, but the sturdier leaves are better for frog hiding/breeding. 
If you decide to collect leaves yourself, take them from trees that haven't been treated with pesticides and make sure you don't bring in anything (like slugs) that can be a nuisance in the viv. Some people bake or boil leaves, I usually just leave mine out to dry for a few months where they won't get more bugs before I put them in. 
Alternatively, you can buy leaves for frog tanks from sponsors here that sell them.
Bryan


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

The only leaves I have in my tanks are the ones that fall of the plants.

I prefer moss (for larger frogs), mixed with a few plants, and any bare spots left being just hard-packed soil. I love the look of moss, and the frogs don't mind it at all. Most all of my frogs are quite fearless and come to the glass for feedings .....Auratus and leucs are my smaller frogs, and they do fine with it too.

There's a large breeder on this forum with oodles of tanks filled with beautiful mosses and almost no leaf litter in any of the tanks. They also have mostly larger frogs.

I simply just don't like the look of decomposing leaves, even though leaves are more natural. So, I guess it's a preference...

Again, I have large frogs...I don't know a thing about the little guys.

Tommy


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I would compare it to trees with squirrels. Squirrels don't like you to be closer to them than they are to a tree to hide in. I feel like the closer frogs are to their hiding spot the closer you can get to them. I would also compare it to excelsior. A layer of leaf litter creates so much more area for your frogs to hide and live in. I can't prove it but I believe 100 percent that they prefer lots of leaf litter.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jdooley195 said:


> The only leaves I have in my tanks are the ones that fall of the plants.
> 
> I prefer moss (for larger frogs), mixed with a few plants, and any bare spots left being just hard-packed soil. I love the look of moss, and the frogs don't mind it at all. Most all of my frogs are quite fearless and come to the glass for feedings .....Auratus and leucs are my smaller frogs, and they do fine with it too.
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to disagree with the statement that it is simply a preference. It has already been stated that it is not a necessity but their is no denying that it is a source of food for microfauna. It also supplies areas that the microfauna can hide and breed in. It's a simple fact that vivs with a good base of leaf litter will house, grow, and produce more microfauna than vivs without leaf litter. Many of the proponents of leaf litter have kept vivs without leaf litter in the past and now we have something to compare it to. I'm guessing that most of those who do not use leaf litter have not used proper amounts of leaf litter in vivs to be able to compare the differences in health, boldness, breeding, success with froglets in Obligate vivs, etc, etc.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm not trying to disagree with 99% of the board here, I'm just saying that _I personally prefer_ to use moss because of how it looks...

And that my frogs are very bold...

And that a frog half the size of a twinkie would have a hard time finding a leaf to duck under in my tanks (but they hardly flinch as it is)...

And that I know a long-time breeder with very similar looking tanks...

And I didn't mention microfauna because I don't know enough about it to do so...

I haven't said it wasn't a necessity, because I don't know that to be a fact. I do know what has worked for me however, and it hasn't been leaf litter. So I wanted to share my personal experience from the 'other side'...

In my experience of (only) four years, I still have my first tank and Its in great shape, and the original auratus (moved to another tank) I had in there, is still alive and well.


Tommy


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

If there are other hides, why not moss? Especially if there is a bit of real estate dedicated to a pile of leaves. Or, a substrate that supports microfauna?

Personally, I use leaves. That's mostly because I am a killer of moss. My preference would be some nice hidey plants for the frogs, a pile of leaf litter somewhere, and then moss. 

I would think the typical ABG substrate would support microfauna.

For the records, all of my tanks have a few inches of leaf litter and no moss


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

jdooley195 said:


> I'm not trying to disagree with 99% of the board here, I'm just saying that _I personally prefer_ to use moss because of how it looks...
> 
> And that my frogs are very bold...
> 
> ...


When you are dealing with the less active and more forgiving frogs like Auratus, there isn't a large need for microfauna. They have slower metabolisms than the smaller species, and as a result, need much less food. In the case of obligates and Ranitomeya genus, the individuals are much more active and less forgiving of scarce microfauna. Thus, giving the microfauna a place to establish and grow, as well as giving the frogs an area to hide and hunt, it creates a much more natural and healthy environment.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I know this is text and is hard to understand my tone....I'm genuinely being not-sarcastic....

Curlykid (again, I'm being sincere with my questions and not rude)....Are you saying that larger frogs require less food than smaller frogs?...Or just that they need to eat less often?....And if either were the case, couldn't a scheduled feeding of fruit flies suffice for having loose microfauna available?

My alanis are the most active frogs I have ever seen...whats their case, being large and extremely active?

Frogface, Yea I have various hides. Cocohuts, half logs, and even over hanging backgrounds (like a large great stuff root shape or a cork cliff that sticks out over the ground creating low dark areas for them to hide under. I guess Im lucky with the moss...


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

i'm saying that larger frogs need food at less frequency than most thumbnails and obligates. but really, there are no cons to leaf litter, and it's much less work to dump some springtails and isos in some leaf litter than it is to feed fruit flies eight times a day. not to mention most thumbnail's froglets are too small to take fruitflies. microfauna also provides some nutrients that fruit flies can't. leaf litter is also natural and looks way better than moss. show me one pic of moss naturally growing on the ground of an amazonian rainforest....none. the presence of microfauna also allows the frogs to regulate their food intake and diet.

EDIT: in the case of your Alanis, i have no doubt it's active compared to your auratus and leucs. it's still fairly stagnant compared to thumbnails, i don't think your alanis can leap several feet. maybe it can? in that case i would consider it an active frog by relative terms.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

curlykid said:


> i'm saying that larger frogs need food at less frequency than most thumbnails and obligates.


As a broad generalization, I'm pretty sure that this is incorrect.. I can go into details on it another time but there is a lot that comes into play and there are a lot of situations where a larger frog can require less food than a smaller frog in terms of calories... 



curlykid said:


> microfauna also provides some nutrients that fruit flies can't. .


Such as?? 

Ed


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

i should have worded it "microfauna can also provide nutrients to froglets that fruitflies can't". for many froglets, they are too small to take FF's, if it is possible to provide calcium to the microfauna in the vivarium, the froglets would receive a healthy amount of calcium as apposed to microfauna not allowed calcium uptake.

Ed: and please do go into detail of the calorie uptake of thumbnails compared to a larger frog species.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

curlykid said:


> i should have worded it "microfauna can also provide nutrients to froglets that fruitflies can't". for many froglets, they are too small to take FF's, if it is possible to provide calcium to the microfauna in the vivarium, the froglets would receive a healthy amount of calcium as apposed to microfauna not allowed calcium uptake.


If the froglets can't get D3, then they can't metabolize or use the calcium with the microfauna.... It should also be noted that calcium and microfauna are only available on substrates that are high in calcium such as clay... this does not include ABG or ABG style substrates, peat, sphagnum etc... 

Again, if the froglets can't get D3 then it doesn't do them any good... 

Ed


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

it was under my assumption that amphibians are capable of producing their own D3.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey Tommy, I know it's entirely possible to run vivs successfully they way you are doing it. I did it that way for years, with lush green fields of moss. We all love the way moss looks. My statement were a specific reply to that one phrase, "So, I guess it's a preference...", which sounds like an implication that it really doesn't matter, one's no better than the other, it's just what you like better. If I sounded like a jerk, I'm sorry. Were it phrased more as an opinion, that you just prefer the old school, lush mossy field look, I would not have replied. But now that we are talking, I have to try to talk you into taking the Leaf Litter Challange. Pick a viv. Put at least a 2" thick layer of leaf litter over half of the viv or more. Try moving some of you moss to the background. That's where I get my moss "fix". Pick up a few cultures of microfauna. Get one or two cultures of Springtails. My favorites are white temperates and Pinks. Then get one or two cultures of Isopods. My favorites are Dwarf White, Dwarf Grey, and Giant Orange. Feed your frogs well before you turn them loose so that they don't just get picked off. An even better practice is to culture some on the side, too, so you will have more if you ever have an in tank wipe out. Here is my culturing thread. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html I'm not selling any right now but you can check Teddy (Tclipse) and Jeremy Huff.
Run your viv that way for 6 months. That is my Leaf Litter Challange. I would be willing to bet that when you see the benefits, you will begin to like the look and will soon be putting larger and larger areas of leaf litter in your vivs. You'll soon be growing lush mossy back walls instead of fields. Your frogs will love hunting through the leaf litter.
Consider this. I love steak, but I ate steak 3 times a day, every day, week after week, I would soon be craving chicken with a passion. Variety is the spice of life. Let your froggys live it up! Further, consider the limited nutrition that only one food can offer. We already know that it is weak, that's why we dust, right? So is we know that supplementing is good, why not supplement with as many different types of bugs as we can? Especially when springtails and Isopods can by cultured in your vivs. 
Tommy, my vivs are so well seeded that I could walk away from my vivs for two weeks or longer and know that my frogs were still well fed. Wouldn't that be a nice bonus?
Think about it.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Doug has a whole goulash in his vivs! a very good point about the diversity in diet, definitely a big plus.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The scaling of size and calories in anurans doesn't work like it does in mammals or birds since they don't have to expend higher rates of energy to sustain the core temperature.... 

For example the caloric needs of an amphibian (much less than an anuran) decrease rapidly with temperature... For example a marble salamander at a temperature of 45 F requires less than half the calories it would require if it has a body temperature of 65 F. So first off, the frogs would have to be at the same temperature.. next we would have to look at whether the frogs are injured or are in a reproductive state.. if no then the basal metabolic rate can be more than 8 fold less than the active rate.... So an inactive larger frogs can require far less calories than a smaller frog that is calling for example... So right off the bat, to make the generalized statement of higher caloric needs is incorrect. So we would have make a bunch of assumptions of equality to make the statement that a smaller frog automatically requires more food (including being able to equate the food calorically..do you have a reference for the caloric content of a springtail?) .... 

Ed


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Ed, i know it does vary from frog to frog, but thumbnails are more active, it's recorded and proven. in addition, most of the frogs we keep are either calling/breeding or rambunctious froglets constantly hunting and needing food, in need of constant food availability, needing more calories. and no i do not have caloric reference for springtails, but if there is a near unlimited supply, they would be able to regulate their diet and provide themselves the right amount of calories.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

curlykid said:


> Ed, i know it does vary from frog to frog, but thumbnails are more active, it's recorded and proven. in addition, most of the frogs we keep are either calling/breeding or rambunctious froglets constantly hunting and needing food, in need of constant food availability, needing more calories. and no i do not have caloric reference for springtails, but if there is a near unlimited supply, they would be able to regulate their diet and provide themselves the right amount of calories.


Lets correct an assumption on your part right off the bat.. the frogs do not regulate thier caloric intake. They are hardwired to consume as much food as possible at all times since in the wild, there food gods don't provide food for them on a routine basis and something could happen to reduce the availability of food (such as dry season..). This is one of the many reasons the average frog in the hobby is at best obese (and probably grossly obese compared to wild frogs). We muck around with this even more by setting up conditions in which the frogs are active as much as possible ignoring the fact that at least some species show a specific activity pattern in the wild... 
You are confusing the hunting behaviors with a requirement for food... since they are hard wired this is a false assumption.. 

In several prior threads I provided the information that a 1 gram frog at 77 F requires the equivalent of 5.2 fruit flies/day to sustain basal metabolic needs.. It would need less at 72 F... 

Do you have a study that compares the activity pattern of a thumbnail or obligate egg feeder to one of the larger dendrobatids? Did they correct for obesity? Or are you going off anecdotal observations?


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Haha so we're still somewhat on topic, I think.

Curly, every time I see someones viv with a (I'd say thumbnail, but I'd be ignorantly guessing) small frog, I have to look, and look... and then if I do see it, it normally hides right away (I'm very sure there's exceptions to this), but yea, my alanis are freaks and I would put them up against any frogs behavior.

"leaf litter is also natural and looks way better than moss. show me one pic of moss naturally growing on the ground of an amazonian rainforest....none."

Slow down with that...I didn't intend for you to get all upset about it, It's just moss. Your comment here is displaying your preference, as did I early, but why attack me for it? I said leaves were natural, remember? I'm not going out of my way to ask you what frogs you have to base your opinions on.

Doug, I don't think you were a jerk, I just wanted to clarify my reason for posting. But in my defense, I did start that line with, "I simply just don't like..." and ended it with the preference thing.  Your opinions, as well as Ed's, are those that I have agreed with and appreciated most on this forum for as long as I can remember. 

I don't have lush green fields of moss though, I incorporate it throughout the tank in random areas. I do put some moss on the backgrounds, I love it there too!










The sides of the tank are more planted, and there's not really any moss on the right side, but as we can see there is a massive hide area at the back of the tank (they sleep there actually).

As far as the bugs go...I'll take a shot at the leaf litter challenge. I actually just bought some springs today, so maybe I'll get some ideas and put 'em to good use.

Tommy


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Good to hear! You can jump start it by tucking a few fruit or veggie scraps down into the leaf litter. Mushrooms are great and so are bananas because the start to break down right away and that's what the springs are looking for...decomp. Then from time to time, like maybe once every week or two, you just slip in a bit of apple, carrot, a grape or two, really whatever fruit and veggie scraps that are about to hit the trash. I do avoid citrus and spicy things like hot peppers or onion.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I know I`m a little late here, but I decided to go with leaf litter a few years ago because I killed just about every moss I tried to grow. I have to say I actually like the looks of leaf litter over moss and there`s nothing better than seeing a springtail covered mushroom under a leaf in my tanks.

John


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Ed said:


> Lets correct an assumption on your part right off the bat.. the frogs do not regulate thier caloric intake. They are hardwired to consume as much food as possible at all times since in the wild, there food gods don't provide food for them on a routine basis and something could happen to reduce the availability of food (such as dry season..). This is one of the many reasons the average frog in the hobby is at best obese (and probably grossly obese compared to wild frogs). We muck around with this even more by setting up conditions in which the frogs are active as much as possible ignoring the fact that at least some species show a specific activity pattern in the wild...
> You are confusing the hunting behaviors with a requirement for food... since they are hard wired this is a false assumption..
> 
> In several prior threads I provided the information that a 1 gram frog at 77 F requires the equivalent of 5.2 fruit flies/day to sustain basal metabolic needs.. It would need less at 72 F...
> ...


Ed, i'm an anecdoty! I had no idea that they couldn't regulate their intake. In the wild, aren't there little nibblets always available? what keeps them from going obese then?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

curlykid said:


> Ed, i'm an anecdoty! I had no idea that they couldn't regulate their intake. In the wild, aren't there little nibblets always available? what keeps them from going obese then?


First off in at least several species there are peaks of activity during which the forage and engage in other behaviors. So they don't necessarily have access to the smorgasboard 24/7.. 

Second in captivity they don't have to worry about predation or competition (or defence). Third there is a wide variety in "quality" of food sources. For example in the literature involving territorial defence of plethodontid salamanders fruit flies and other softer bodied prey species are often considered to be high quality food items when compared to ants... 

Third the frogs in the wild are using metabolic resources to fight off parasite and pathogens.. 

Fifth The frogs can be involved in much greater movement (for example O. pumilo females may deposit tadpoles up trees more than 30 feet from the incubation location) and burn a much larger proportion of calories.... 

In general we tend to condense all of these things to a very small area and overfeed the frogs. This results not only in behavioral changes but metabolic changes as the frogs are not burning calories at the same rate. 

We can see some of the behavioral changes in pumilio (one of the best studied dendrobatid) as an example that in the wild, the females do not produce clutches of eggs that are fertilized while feeding tadpoles but this is common in the captive animals. The reason for this is that the captive frogs have a surplus of calories (since ovulation is triggered by fat reserves).... 

some comments,

Ed


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