# Froglet Growth Optimization



## newtenthusiast (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey guys,

Thus far I stick to feeding my froglets flightless melano, twice a day, dusted everytime.
Just wondering if there is anything special or different that works for someone else. 

Maybe adding something to the ff media/new food items(phoenix worms, waxworm.)/warmer temperature/longer photoperiod/rearing separately/etc.

I have heard pinhead crickets, but I don't really want to culture them myself, does anyone have any experience with petsmart/petco, are they relatively parasite free?

Newt


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

What species are you working with? In my experience, environmental conditions seem to be particularly important with growth potential in tincs. Something traumatic happens during early froglet stages, and their growth rate suffers. I haven't really noticed it in my imitators as I let the parents do all the raising. 

Nutritionally, I think variety is the key to strong froglets with vigorous growth of any species- FF larvae, RFB larvae, springtails, pinheads, etc.

What newt/salamander species do you keep? Always good to meet a fellow caudate enthusiast.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You're not going to get pinheads from Petco/Petsmart, and to get true pinheads you'll need to feed froglets, you basically have to breed your own. Pinheads are fresh hatched to a couple days old and are too sensitive to ship. Usually the "pinheads" shipped by cricket companies are actually week olds, and yes there is a significant size difference. I think they are a much better standard food for froglets, but I also believe in the fact that most tadpoles aren't raised to their best ability which results in smaller froglets which results in slower initial growth and over all small frogs in the long run... and shipping during their sensitive period (if they have one - I've not noticed one in the imitator group yet this period is nearly to 6months of age for typically grown tincs) can even stunt them.

As for food items... you'll need to read the food section a bit more. Adding to the FF media doesn't do much unless you're feeding larvae. I don't really recomend a lot of fatty moth/fly larvae when young, when good overall quality food is what they need. Plus other than FF larvae they are a pain to get at the small size you'd need for froglets. The key with froglets is to set them up in a decent environment, and keep it constant... and give a constant supply of food. A larger tank with plenty of microfauna plus FF cultures just sitting there putting out flies is how I've seen the best froglets raised... large bins chuck full of babies. As long as there are more than 5, you're good to raise them in this set up even with some of the size differences.

But still... the best froglets have more to do with _*tadpole*_ care than froglet care.


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## newtenthusiast (Mar 29, 2008)

hey flyangler, I am currently working with the tinctorius group. How traumatic of an experience do you have in mind. Are you refering to froglet escape/temperature spike, or something subtler like forgetting to feed(say three days). Also do you experience growth stunt with larger frogs such as terribs, auratus and leucs?

Caudates are actually what got me into the amphib world Currently, I have cut back to only some cynops orientalis and N.V. How about yourself? 

Kerokero, if that is the case then feeding crickets isnt something that I can do, at least for now. With regards to ff larvae/moth larvae, why do you think that they are not good for froglets, is it more to do with their nutritional value (e.g. fat is not good for them)? And also, what do you qualify as quality food for froglets?

With regards to temperature. Does anyone have any experience with froglets doing(growing) better in the long run with lower temperature. (Similar to the tadpole temperature discussion).


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I generally recomend to stay away from larvae for froglets the same reasons I recomend it for adults - it's ok as a treat but usually too fatty to be good for growing. Like american diets... the kids are growing horizontally, but are they growing vertically all that well? Hmmm...

FFs are fine, I've seen some massive frogs that have never seen a cricket. The key was the animals were in a stable habitat (not moved or sold off until subadults) and they always had food available - FFs crawling around the tank. I think crickets (and likely roaches) are better food staples, but FFs aren't horrid and can get some great frogs if fed constantly. So... don't shuffle them around more than you have to, keep them in large groups in big bins with FFs always running around, and hold onto them until they are subadults... you'll get monster sized frogs (the size they are supposed to be!).

I have always raised froglets on the slightly upper part of the species temp range, so warm for the species. Cold - as both tadpoles and frogs - can stunt their growth or slow it down.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> hey flyangler, I am currently working with the tinctorius group. How traumatic of an experience do you have in mind. Are you refering to froglet escape/temperature spike, or something subtler like forgetting to feed(say three days). Also do you experience growth stunt with larger frogs such as terribs, auratus and leucs?


With the tincs you mention, I'd expect to see stunting with wild temperature/humidity swings, and too many stressors in the environment (rearranging cage furniture, lack of hides, lack of food, etc).



> How about yourself?


More caudates than frogs! Pleurodeles waltl, Pseudobranchus axanthus axanthus, A. mavortium, A. maculatum, A. opacum, Tylototriton kweikowensis, Typhlonectes natans, Salamandra salamandra, Geotrypetes seraphini.....

The Salamandra female is gravid, hope she drops soon!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Oi, boys! Keep the caudata stuff on caudata.org or amphibianforum, we're trying to talk froglets here 

Stressers also would be just moving them from one tank to another... and having a ride to a new owner between the new places only makes it worse.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Oi, boys! Keep the caudata stuff on caudata.org or amphibianforum, we're trying to talk froglets here


Yeah, yeah 



> Stressers also would be just moving them from one tank to another... and having a ride to a new owner between the new places only makes it worse.


Excellent point, Corey.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Not a lot of time but optimization of growth may not be best for the animal in the long term.... 
I wish I had more time to go into it but until the first week of July it'll probably have to wait. 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

A number of reptiles have shown issues with being "pushed" to reach breeding size faster... I believe that's part of what Ed is talking about. But... are we actually "optimizing/maximizing" their growth, or are we just trying to catch up with what they should be like? Much like the coloration supplementation, I don't think it's a matter of "making better" as much as "making as they should have been". 

Then again, I believe that has more to do with the care at the tadpole stage, and not shipping/selling underaged froglets than taking care of the actual froglets - most keepers have that down.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> But... are we actually "optimizing/maximizing" their growth, or are we just trying to catch up with what they should be like?


I tend to think more along the lines of #2.

Jason


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

So do I...


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## newtenthusiast (Mar 29, 2008)

Nice collection Jason! and thats a very nice tiger sal :wink: but corey is right, this is not caudata.org after all haha, btw good luck with the salamandra.

Anyway, Part of the reason I started this thread was concerns that I had after reading another discusion regarding declining frog qualities. It is really upsetting to hear, and if I can do something about it, I want to make sure that my frogs are raised to their full potential. In another word I don't mind my frogs taking longer to develop as long as they can be bigger/healthier/colorful.

ed, that's long time away  . But when you do have the time please let us know.

Corey, I can't help but realize your stress on tadpole stage having a bigger part on the frog
than the froglet stage. I do agree with you, unfortunately unless you breed your own frog this maybe something that many in this hobby really can't do anything about (at least in the beggining stages). Nonetheless do you mind telling us your experience in what you think is key to tadpole growth. Maybe some light on species specific food/water changes/enclosure or anything you think is essential.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Anyway, Part of the reason I started this thread was concerns that I had after reading another discusion regarding declining frog qualities. It is really upsetting to hear, and if I can do something about it, I want to make sure that my frogs are raised to their full potential. In another word I don't mind my frogs taking longer to develop as long as they can be bigger/healthier/colorful.


I think it's an issue on several levels- inadequate tadpole diets during the initial rearing into froglets, enviromental stressors, and for me, the most important: not allowing the frogs to cycle down and take a break from breeding. The majority of tanks in the hobby are sealed, so humidity is super high and temps are usually at the upper end of the range for the species. This keeps the frogs in a reproductive overload, in my opinion.

I don't pull tads from my imitator tank, letting the parents do the raising- which also keeps them from laying non-stop.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

IMO - ways to increase the _quality_ of our froglets...

1) Start with the breeders. Like mentioned above, a lot of frogs are pushing the line of over breeding... they are kept in a constant breeding seaon (many PDFs are losely seasonal) and pulling eggs - while considered the standard - can be problematic especially when combined with constant breeding. We pull eggs, the frogs consider them predated, and try to replace them... and likely producing more than they normally would in the wild. Let them care for the eggs and transport tads (and with thumbs might as well let them raise the tads too) and you avoid this problem. Unfortunately, this is at a cost of less froglets produced... _in theory_ since we aren't sure how fertility rates and tadpole/froglet deaths due to weak animals are caused by the over breeding.

2) Work with the tadpoles. There has been a trend to use high algae diets... I'm sorry but that is NOT what they are eating in the wild, no matter how nutritious the spirulina/chlorella is said to be (nutritious for people btw, the tadpoles evolved to get everything they needed out of detritus...). It's a good supplement, but even the people who sell it the most don't use it as more than 50% of the diet for tinc group frogs. I personally wouldn't want to see it used more than 30% of the diet... tadpole bites are one of the best foods, tropical fish flakes (not algae ones!) are good too, and then let the tads get their detritus! If your tad tanks are full of algae, I don't think you need to add more to their diet, they are getting enough. Add boiled oak/wild almond leaves. Figure out the system that works for you to get huge tadpoles (many, many threads on this and what works for some doesn't work for others). Huge tadpoles mean large froglets that will grow like weeds. Small tadpoles mean smaller weaker froglets that will spend the first couple months trying to catch up to what they were supposed to be, before finally getting to growing. 

I'm friends with the wonderful Matt Mirabello. His "froglets" never cease to amaze people... they are significantly larger than a lot of other froglets that are at the shows as well, yet they are younger! His frogs get full sized sooner. He isn't doing anything different with the froglets than anyone else is. It's his tadpoles... the way he raises them makes massive froglets! If I didn't know him so well, I'd have said he feeds his frogs steriods or something :lol: Similar case with my anthonyi... when I started in the hobby I did a lot of work with my tads because I noticed my "well cared for" tadpoles produced smaller, weaker froglets compared to those that were left in tank with the original group I got my animals from. I changed how I did things and what I fed and I started getting froglets that came out of the water the size other others' one to two month olds, with less deaths and no drowning issues, and they often started calling at 3-4 months old compared to others' 6-9 months (sexual maturity is a SIZE more than an age!). THAT is why I obsess over the tadpoles.

3) Feed those little froglets constantly. The froglet care is easy.

4) Hold onto the froglets until they are past the "drop dead" stage as I call it. This is a stage of growth where the froglets are highly sensitive to stress, and can be severly stunted or die when stressed at this age. Thumbnails don't seem to have this stage and are hardy from the get go (I don't get it, but once they are actively out of their brom/film canister and eating, they seem to take everthing in stride). Tincs seem to have it until they are nearly 6 months old (or around 1in in size - I've seen some of Matt's auratus past this stage when they were 3 months old). Pumilio and trickier thumbs like the retics tend to need to be held onto until they reach sexual maturity in some cases (4-6 months) or at least until they are well onto eating FFs and not only springs. In general... if you can hold onto them until early sexual maturity, they will be fine... that sounds like a long time, but if you raise your tads right, it really isn't all that much longer than most people keep them anyways.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> 4) Hold onto the froglets until they are past the "drop dead" stage as I call it. This is a stage of growth where the froglets are highly sensitive to stress, and can be severly stunted or die when stressed at this age. Thumbnails don't seem to have this stage and are hardy from the get go (I don't get it, but once they are actively out of their brom/film canister and eating, they seem to take everthing in stride). Tincs seem to have it until they are nearly 6 months old (or around 1in in size - I've seen some of Matt's auratus past this stage when they were 3 months old). Pumilio and trickier thumbs like the retics tend to need to be held onto until they reach sexual maturity in some cases (4-6 months) or at least until they are well onto eating FFs and not only springs. In general... if you can hold onto them until early sexual maturity, they will be fine... that sounds like a long time, but if you raise your tads right, it really isn't all that much longer than most people keep them anyways.


Sorry not a lot of time to elaborate..but there is a tendency to maximize the growth of the frogs in as short a time as possible. This is accomplished by consistantly feeding to excess and is often accompanied by obesity in the frogs. When this is added to the reproductive stressors as mentioned by Corey, there is a strong possibility that maximizing (optimizing growth) is not the best thing for the frogs. 
In anurans, growth is dependent on a couple of things and one of these is size at metamorphosis. Another is time to maturation... once reproduction begins, metabolic resources are redirected from growth however growth does not cease. "Stunting" is not automatically bad...
There is a tendency to get the "largest, fattest frogs" which are not necessarily the healthiest frogs... 

I'll try to post more as I get time but is hard right now.


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## newtenthusiast (Mar 29, 2008)

Jason, I agree with you on the reproductive stress issue. Even though some stress such as predator, lack of food etc. are eliminated in a vivarium setting. I am sure over breeding will eventually takes it toll. I guess the question I have in mind is where is the line between over breeding and natural breeding. Maybe just follow the rainy/dry season where the frogs are originally from, anyway this is very interesting.

Corey, thank you for the great reply. very informative, I really enjoy reading your opinion and experience with the tadpoles. It will definitely change how I do things 

Ed, I guess the key is to provide enough food for growth but not too much that it will lead to obesity.
What are your opinion on excess fat on juvenile frogs? are they as bad for them as they are for adult frogs?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> 4) Hold onto the froglets until they are past the "drop dead" stage as I call it. This is a stage of growth where the froglets are highly sensitive to stress, and can be severly stunted or die when stressed at this age. Thumbnails don't seem to have this stage and are hardy from the get go (I don't get it, but once they are actively out of their brom/film canister and eating, they seem to take everthing in stride). Tincs seem to have it until they are nearly 6 months old (or around 1in in size - I've seen some of Matt's auratus past this stage when they were 3 months old). Pumilio and trickier thumbs like the retics tend to need to be held onto until they reach sexual maturity in some cases (4-6 months) or at least until they are well onto eating FFs and not only springs. In general... if you can hold onto them until early sexual maturity, they will be fine... that sounds like a long time, but if you raise your tads right, it really isn't all that much longer than most people keep them anyways.


Drop Dead Stage? 6 mos old to get 1 inch juvis? Are you sure you aren`t referring to nutritionally deficient or overbred breeders or tads w/ bad water quality(ph,hardness etc.)?
I have never had any tincs drop dead on me unless they were really runted right out of the water.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Is a lot of excess fat weight good for human children? Nope... and it doesn't make them grow faster. It's a healthy, steady diet that helps them reach good potential. Froglets should be growing longitudinally, not horizontally. Lots of small meals of stuff not terribly fatty.

Aaron, the 6mo and 1in comments were a case of "or"... if you get 1in froglets before then, they are likely fine... it's a size more than an age... but that's hard to explain to a lot of people. The drop dead stage (ranging from stunting to death) is basically the stage where froglets are still young enough to be heavily impacted by stresses... missing food for a period, temp changes, significant environmental changes, shipping, etc (heaven forbid you get more than one of these at a go, then even a healthy morphed froglet can die). This is more typically seen with sensitive froglets that morphed "undersized", which has become almost "typical" in the hobby. Tincs are more sensitive as froglets than most people give them credit for, and are even worse with the common tadpole practices that produce smaller froglets that struggle. Even a super hardy giant froglet I still wouldn't want to sell under one inch because it won't take the stress super well, but a well morphed froglet can take only 2-3mootw to reach that size. Then they are at the almost bomb proof level they are reputed as. The closer they get to the end of the "stage" of life, the less influence the stresses will have, but they are still bad...

And hopefully as a breeder, you shouldn't be seeing that much of it like you state, it's usually the "going to a new home" stresses I've seen cause the damage, and especially to froglets sold young (under an inch) and morphed small.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ah, I see. Matt`s success` should be what`s strived for.
Although I see what your talking about w/ diet. I had an interesting observation here where I took out the first 2 cauchero froglets and left a third in the tank, the last to morph. The 2 raised by themselves had more mass but the one left in the tank is now adult size while the 2 took out are a little over 1/2 grown. They are all only 2- 2 1/2 months old but the tank raised grew lengthwise and was always, for me, a bit skinny while the other 2 have held weight better. The 2 were raised in shoeboxes and probably aren`t getting as much excersize and I think the tank raised started on ff`s earlier, since I was feeding them to the adults.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yes, I've noticed the same thing with pumilio froglets I've raised in the past... the ones left in tank (if the tank can support it) always seemed to do better and be larger than ones I tried to raise myself. Less stress from being moved, good amount and possibly wider array of food, but in lower doses and constantly available... it just works. I always pulled them when they got 2/3 grown rather that as soon as I could catch them.

Matt is doing something right, that I know. Now we just need to get more of the hobby doing it lol. People shouldn't be so shocked about his froglets!


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