# Sticky  PEARLS OF WISDOM [aka CODE OF ETHICS]



## Mywebbedtoes

So it came up that it would be a good idea if there was a general code of ethics for keeping and breeding darts. This would greatly help new converts. It may also help people get a general consensus about topics such as mixing of species and other commonly asked questions. Maybe we can compile the top answers and put them in a sticky.

*WHAT ARE YOUR GENERAL CODE OF ETHICS FOR KEEPING DARTS?*

*Original poster suggested a name change. I kept the 'old name' also for those who were tracking this thread. Idea is that most of these postings are personal opinions, and although many are quite reasonable and non-controversial, no universally agreed upon CODE is implied or firmly established.
SPH


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## Mywebbedtoes

1. I will not intentionally create hybrid offspring, nor will I ever introduce accidental hybrid offspring into the hobby. I recognize this to be a threat to keeping pure species and the general health of the animals involved. I also respect that other breeders go through great length to keep "pure" bloodlines and would not want to threaten that work with hybrids.


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## Corpus Callosum

2. When acquiring frogs, I will use my best efforts to find out everything I can about the origin of the frogs and any locality / line information. If the frogs breed and I give or sell the offspring to another person, I will pass on all of this information to them so that they can keep track of their genetics as well.


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## bbrock

3. I will not purchase illegally imported, exported or otherwise illegally obtained animals and I will only purchase imported animals from sustainably harvested stock and from sources that use proceeds to support conservaton of wild amphibians.


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## bbrock

Mywebbedtoes said:


> 1. I will not intentionally create hybrid offspring, nor will I ever introduce accidental hybrid offspring into the hobby. I recognize this to be a threat to keeping pure species and the general health of the animals involved. I also respect that other breeders go through great length to keep "pure" bloodlines and would not want to threaten that work with hybrids.


If enough people join the Amphibian Steward Network and register their animals, we will be able to drop this one from the code because there will be an easy way to maintain "pure" lines without relying on peer pressure.


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## zBrinks

4. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months!

5. I will research every animal obtained BEFORE it is brought home. I will learn how to culture FFs and springtails BEFORE the animal is purchased. I will plan ahead if cultures fail, and have someone I can depend on for FFs in an emergency.


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## defaced

6) I will continually look to new ways of doing things (construction techniques, breeding, raising young, feeders, etc.) to help further the direction of the hobby.


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## Grassypeak

7)	I will house my animals in adequately sized vivaria, following quarantine and fecal examination of new animals. For me, adequately sized vivaria are as follows.
a.	no frog permanently housed in anything smaller than a 10 gallon tank (horizontal for terrestrials)
b.	each medium sized terrestrial (leuc, dwarf tinc, etc) given at least 100 square inches of floor space (no more than 2 in a 10 gallon)
c.	each large terrestrial (including most tincs) given at least 200 square inches of floor space
d.	when at all possible, frogs are to be given more than the above-mentioned space

On a separate but related note, I will also continue to pick on those who house Bufo fowleri in small enclosures. :wink:


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## Guest

8)Instead of keeping more frogs, I will do more with the frogs I already keep. I will not impulsively attain frogs simply because I want them. First I will consider if I can take care of them, and if their needs will be met in times when I will not be around to take care of them.


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## Grassypeak

:wink:


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## Ed

Chris,

Are you considering only floor space and not other landscaping features that increase usable space? (say a series of easily scalable ledges wide enough for a large dendrobatid to sit on?) 

Ed


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## Grassypeak

Ed,

I’m just stating what I think the minimums should be. It’s true that easily climbable logs and ledges increase the amount of space that terrestrial frogs have and they also serve to create visual barriers. I just consider those icing on the cake. I don’t think my minimums are too restrictive. 200 square inches of floor space per tink amounts to an area that the frog can cover in less than a minute.


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## Ed

Just asking for clarification. 


Ed


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## bbrock

Grassypeak said:


> Ed,
> 
> I’m just stating what I think the minimums should be. It’s true that easily climbable logs and ledges increase the amount of space that terrestrial frogs have and they also serve to create visual barriers. I just consider those icing on the cake. I don’t think my minimums are too restrictive. 200 square inches of floor space per tink amounts to an area that the frog can cover in less than a minute.


Sorry to be the ecologist nerd again. Another reason this is a good idea is because the substrate is the waste treatment plant of the vivarium and also where the production line for soil arthropods resides. So by sticking to those limits based on floor space, you are setting up some rules of thumb that provide a good chance for some sustainable supplemental food supplies.

Having said that, I have a viv that certainly violates your rule of thumb. It is a cylindrical ventrimaculatus vivarium with small floor space and lots of vertical space. The frogs seem fine with it but I've never been able to maintain much of a springtail colony in that viv.


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## Nuggular

9) I will avoid buying wildcaught frogs at all costs. I will try my best to locate a captive bred frog before even considering wildcaught. Once found, I will do as much research as I can to find out were the frog came from, what bloodline it is from, and who bred it.


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## Mywebbedtoes

10. I will do what is in my power to keep my frog(s) healthy even if this has added expense and effort. I will not buy animals I am unwilling or unable to reasonably care for and I will consider this before I purchase them. I will acknowledge that this is a living animal and not just an item for enjoyment or show and will treat it will a proper amount of dignity, as I would any other animal.


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## kyle1745

Keep the ideas coming and we could put this into a care sheet\article.


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## markpulawski

I will not sell froglets less than 8 weeks old (12 would be better).


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## Nuggular

Good one Mark. I concur.


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## a hill

I will never buy frogs I haven't planned on and have no where to put them.


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## Nuggular

That gonna be a hard one to follow *a hill*. Everyone buys frogs they dont plan on or have room for. Then you just make room and all is well. The important thing is not buying frogs you have no way to care for properly.


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## Tim F

a hill said:


> I will never buy frogs I haven't planned on and have no where to put them.





> That gonna be a hard one to follow a hill. Everyone buys frogs they dont plan on or have room for. Then you just make room and all is well. The important thing is not buying frogs you have no way to care for properly.


Yeah. Gotta be flexible. It's kinda like hearing, "Honey, we're pregnant..." :roll:


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## a hill

Nuggular said:


> That gonna be a hard one to follow *a hill*. Everyone buys frogs they dont plan on or have room for. Then you just make room and all is well. The important thing is not buying frogs you have no way to care for properly.


Well it was really intended for people who just like see some frogs and buy them. I can see plenty of exceptions here with the members who have enough stuff lying around that it doesn't matter if they intended to buy it or not, but there are a large majority of people who if they see a nice frog somewhere they might just decide to buy it before they know what they're getting into and have no where to put it. 

This may also go with the one about impulse buys. Maybe if I reworded it it would be better...

-Andrew

Edit: Also if you can make room on the spur of a moment than I personally would consider you having room :wink: There are many people who couldn't do that


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## bbrock

a hill said:


> Edit: Also if you can make room on the spur of a moment than I personally would consider you having room :wink: There are many people who couldn't do that


I agree with this (and your previous rule). I've seen too many collections crash because froggers got the collecting bug and grew their collections faster than their capacity to care for them. And often times the frogs that die are quite rare in the hobby (part of the collector bug trait). I wouldn't put this in a code of ethics, but my advice is to not obtain more than 3 species/populations of frogs your first year in the hobby (less if you are completely new to keeping animals in captivity). And after that first year, maintain a reasonable estimate of the time and number of vivaria you can realistically care for.


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## kyle1745

Tim F said:


> Yeah. Gotta be flexible. It's kinda like hearing, "Honey, we're pregnant..." :roll:


Or that first time you get to say... no we're not, you are.  

Really not being mean, but the reality of it is I can't have a kid.  Boy she didn't think that humor was very funny when I actually said it.  Going on 11 years now so she still puts up with me.


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## EDs Fly Meat

This is a great thread.


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## Mywebbedtoes

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

Just to bring this back-up. Good things for us to keep in mind from time to time and for new keepers. Anyway we could get some of this into a caresheet as previously suggested by Kyle?

Anything more to add?


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## flyangler18

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

I will follow established quarantine guidelines to protect the health of an established collection and any new acquistions.

I will maintain a level of sanitation and cleanliness to minimize disease risk to a cosmopolitan collection.


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## AlexRible

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

How about this for a code, I will not knowingly sell any frog that is not in healthy condition/ I will not purposely mislabel frogs with intent to sell them for money than they are worth.

Not that these are problems on this board, but I think this is good ethics.


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## Mywebbedtoes

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

Oh but it happens. I have seen said frogs, not from DB mind you, but I have seen sick frogs sold.


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## AlexRible

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*



Mywebbedtoes said:


> Oh but it happens. I have seen said frogs, not from DB mind you, but I have seen sick frogs sold.


I have no doubt that it does happen, but I think most people on DB won't stand for poor quality and i think most people would speak up if they saw someone trying to sell cobalts as yellow heads or yellow backs as giant orange and so on. But Also I think its far too easy for someone to sell a frog as something its not. Like someone sells a person a male knowing they are looking for a female.


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## Mywebbedtoes

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

I was more thinking of people selling a dart with something like SLS and not disclosing that. But it also goes for people selling animals with faulty information on purpose.


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## Brian Ferriera

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

I will not sell my frogs to a known wholesaler that will keep the frogs in sub par conditions or mix them with animals they should not be mixed with...
Brian


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## insularexotics

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

Ethics are a VERY sticky wicket. I read this whole thread and, honestly, there were a few that got my hackles up. I am not saying I condone hybrids or buying WC frogs willy-nilly. But I think we need to be very cautious about the tone of this "code." If it comes off haughty or pompous, you are more likely to drive a newb into hiding instead of bringing them into the community and educating them.

I don't breed for hybrids. And I would not use my limited space and money resources for them at this point in my frogging "career." But the first darts that I purchased were known hybrids sold to me as such. If a newb just wants some pretty frogs, isn't that a good use of those hybrids that occur rather than committing frogs of known and valuable lineage to someone that is less likely to be in the hobby in a year? Labelling them as hybrids is a reasonable inclusion in the code. But I think it is presumptuous (sp?) to tell people to destroy any hybrids they get.

WC frogs are essential to the continuation of this hobby. Beginners should not be taking them in. But WC's are the best way to diversify bloodlines in the hands of an experienced keeper with access to good vet care.

Again, I am not necessarily condoning either behavior in a beginner. But just playing devil's advocate and trying to keep this code "newb-friendly" since that is, after all, the target audience (I think?).
Rich


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## Brian Ferriera

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

If we could just keep track of the lines thier would be no reason that we would need WC frogs..if this is the case then why CB at all if we are just gonna have to return to the wild to get more??? 
Brian


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## CaptMorgan

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

You know folks, there are similar groups ie;Dogs, Cats, & the
Killifish people who have nearly the same philosophical traits, so
why reinvent the wheel ?
If you need or want them in writting , then why not aquire these
and "tweek" them, alot easier than from scratch. Plus odds are
the've seen and tried plugging more "holes" than you've touched on
here.
BUT, unfortunately like sign's, only the honest people adhere
to them. Instead of Ethics, Standards maybe a better term, plus
you get to create another acronym (TLA), ie; AKA, CFA or TTFN !
TTFN I made up - Three Toes For Now, not the other 
Anyway, it's probably easier to "police", update & distribute to
ANYONE, newbie etc. All you'd need to start, is a consensus of say
5-11 breeders, then they can "yea or nay" from there. K.I.S.S
But, hey what do I know, just some extra brain cells bouncing around !

Capt. Morgan

"Heard a woman say, "I bought a new baby !"
Really, thats how you do it now ? I liked the old way !
"No, I mean my new shiny car !"
Ok then... I'm outta here


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## Brian Ferriera

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

I personally look at this thread as what I believe in rather then what ever one should believe in..people do what they want and in some case's will go agents the grain to just to do so.
Brian


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## insularexotics

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*



Brian Ferriera said:


> If we could just keep track of the lines thier would be no reason that we would need WC frogs..if this is the case then why CB at all if we are just gonna have to return to the wild to get more???
> Brian


Really? We would NEVER need more? IMO, that is a dramatic oversimplification of the current reality in this hobby. I think we have a pretty good idea where all of the blue jeans that are left in the US came from. Do we have a big enough "founding population" to ensure a reasonable approximation of the genetic diversity present in the wild population? I would leave it to Tor, Brent, Robb, Adam or whoever else has them. But I'd bet that they would say "no." What happened to all of those Man Creek pumilio offspring? They fell ou tof favor and there aren't that many left because "bigger and better" morphs came in and took the effort away form them. And there are likely other cases where we know lineage, but the frogs became unpopular, or were difficult to breed, and their population was bottle-necked. 

In an ideal world, this would not happen and we would know lineage on all of the frogs. And that is part of TWI's mission. But we are not anywhere near there. And there are other species of frogs that should be represented, but are not yet for legal reasons or because hobbyists prefer colorful to brown frogs (I know, Corey is an exception). So I think it is premature to "outlaw" WC frogs. But we should definitely encourage CB.

Captive breeding now, for some species, is in its infancy. As we refine techniques for different species, we learn more about those species and others that have similar behavior, ecology, etc. So practice makes perfect for when we have enough of a certain species/morph to consitute a representative genetic sample, even if we know it will require future importations to accomplish that.

Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics


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## Mywebbedtoes

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

I think this topic is getting off hand a bit. Cartainly it wasn't ment to be a list of rules everyone must follow, but rather some guidelines. I guess I was nieve in starting it. Lets not turn it into a debate about hybrids, or wild caught animals, or whatever. There is a lot of personal opinion in this thread, but there are also some really good points to think about. If there is some good info in this thread you can use, good. If you disagree with some of it, that is fine too.


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## Brian Ferriera

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*



insularexotics said:


> Really? We would NEVER need more? IMO, that is a dramatic oversimplification of the current reality in this hobby. I think we have a pretty good idea where all of the blue jeans that are left in the US came from. Do we have a big enough "founding population" to ensure a reasonable approximation of the genetic diversity present in the wild population? I would leave it to Tor, Brent, Robb, Adam or whoever else has them. But I'd bet that they would say "no." What happened to all of those Man Creek pumilio offspring? They fell ou tof favor and there aren't that many left because "bigger and better" morphs came in and took the effort away form them. And there are likely other cases where we know lineage, but the frogs became unpopular, or were difficult to breed, and their population was bottle-necked.
> 
> In an ideal world, this would not happen and we would know lineage on all of the frogs. And that is part of TWI's mission. But we are not anywhere near there. And there are other species of frogs that should be represented, but are not yet for legal reasons or because hobbyists prefer colorful to brown frogs (I know, Corey is an exception). So I think it is premature to "outlaw" WC frogs. But we should definitely encourage CB.
> 
> Captive breeding now, for some species, is in its infancy. As we refine techniques for different species, we learn more about those species and others that have similar behavior, ecology, etc. So practice makes perfect for when we have enough of a certain species/morph to consitute a representative genetic sample, even if we know it will require future importations to accomplish that.
> 
> Rich Terrell
> Insular Exotics


So what you're saying is we need to import more frogs because people could not keep the ones we got alive and only a few people got them to breed? I am not saying that at this point in time we have to stop getting WC but we really need to decide at what point enough is enough. How many blue jeans where imported into this country back in the day?
Probably enough that we could have possibly started something with them. But like in most case's not enough was done then to get things going and it was done at the frogs expense. Thier is a fin line from what we need and was is greed.
Brian


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## Brian Ferriera

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

....and BTW I don't think any one has said anything about stopping WC all together it was just said that we should try to avoid WC whenever possible.
Brian


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## jeffreyvmd

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to take a turn for the worst. I was actually enjoying everyones "ideas" and "opinions". I think that before buying a dart frog, one should realize that it also needs veterinary care/fecals/quarintene. I think that just like people who buy the cute dog or cat and spend $25 or $1000 don't realize the cost of properly taking care of them, individuals who buy dart frogs don't realize the costs involved, and this includes not only the afor mentioned things but also the cost of set up and then ff culturing materials etc. I would like to see this thread go back to listing some good guidelines to follow that can enhance our enjoyment of the hobby.


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## m4dc4t

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*



bbrock said:


> If enough people join the Amphibian Steward Network and register their animals, we will be able to drop this one from the code because there will be an easy way to maintain "pure" lines without relying on peer pressure.


I am purchasing some frogs at the end of this month and I would like to register them. I would also like to see if their line is registered. I know they are born of WC animals. I tried to make sense of this sample report, and do not understand much about the report. http://www.treewalkers.org/treeftp/GlobalConservation/ASN/public/Misc/specimen.pdf


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## insularexotics

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

I want to apologize to everyone if my comments came off as harsh. I was merely trying to add to the discussion and ended up doing so in a rather counterproductive way. A little more in-depth reading might have prevented some of the drama. But I still stand by my statement that we need to be VERY cautious to keep this "Code" in a positive tone (I know, ironic much?). But "guidelines" might be a better tack to take. (All of a sudden I'm picturing Johnny Dep saying "The Code" is mor elike guidelines). 

And I think it would be worthwhile to spell out what the audience is here.

But to simplify the discussion a bit, I'd say one of the first should be "Read, read, and then read."

A close second would be to join TWI and to follow that great mantra "Instead of keeping more species, do more with the species you keep." MANY of the ideas that have been brought up here have the distinct ring of the ASN Handbook!

Thanks!
Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics


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## sports_doc

*Pearls of Wisdom*

It started out innocent enough, didnt it? 


*Consideration #101*: [notice I decided not to call my opinion a Code, for fear Rich would send me to Hell  ]

"I will not spend my last dollar of disposable income on frogs. I will not pay a breeder '_tuesday for a hamburger today', _instead I will act responsibly and not on impulse". 

of course this is more of Fatherly advice, ie: "Save for a rainy day", as I cringe when I get requests to hold animals and 'ship after payday', or when 'I sell my bike' or whatever. The last thing someone should do is trade a frog purchase for a good meal , or a heating bill, or more CC debt.

Some of the other opinions in this thread are quite good.

S


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## Mywebbedtoes

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

Good advice Shawn. Perhaps it should not be called a code of ethics, but principles to follow.


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## sports_doc

*Pearls of Wisdom*

Let's just consider them

"Pearls of Wisdom"


and agree that not everyone will agree with every Pearl.

There is some good info here, which is at risk of being 'lost' in all the back and forth.

S


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## Mywebbedtoes

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

Agreed. Can we change the title?


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## Mywebbedtoes

Thanks for doing that Shawn


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## earthfrog

I will make every effort to live in peace with my fellow froggers and to help them with their needs. 

I will also abstain from potentially harmful man-made chemicals whenever possible in dealing with my dart frogs, recognizing that this can affect their health. This includes man-altered components within, but is not limited to, plant fertilizers, foodstuffs, plastics and preservatives such as parabens.


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## Roadrunner

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*

No, what we need is an estimate on how many frogs of each morph are needed in the US per year. We need people to set #`s and not just collect out every egg that is laid. As long as people show no control over the # of frogs they produce each year this will always happen. Their prolificity is their downfall. Only 1-10 pairs of each morph can produce more than what is needed in this country and lines will always fall out as long as people breed as many frogs as their pairs will produce. This is the fuel that drives bottlenecking. If everyone sees a certain morph always available by a breeder they fall out of favor because people think that morph is "well established".

We also need there to be LIMITED imports so that they don`t just collect them till the market falls out and they fall out of favor. We just say it w/ pumilio. I got all my pairs breeding and can`t get rid of the offspring, even on rarer pumilio because they imported them till they dropped just as they did blue jeans years ago.



Brian Ferriera said:


> So what you're saying is we need to import more frogs because people could not keep the ones we got alive and only a few people got them to breed? I am not saying that at this point in time we have to stop getting WC but we really need to decide at what point enough is enough. How many blue jeans where imported into this country back in the day?
> Probably enough that we could have possibly started something with them. But like in most case's not enough was done then to get things going and it was done at the frogs expense. Thier is a fin line from what we need and was is greed.
> Brian


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## Woodsman

zBrinks said:


> 4. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months!
> 
> 5. I will research every animal obtained BEFORE it is brought home. I will learn how to culture FFs and springtails BEFORE the animal is purchased. I will plan ahead if cultures fail, and have someone I can depend on for FFs in an emergency.


Something about getting new vitamins, I just can't remember when!!


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## Woodsman

*Re: CODE OF ETHICS*



insularexotics said:


> Really? We would NEVER need more? IMO, that is a dramatic oversimplification of the current reality in this hobby. I think we have a pretty good idea where all of the blue jeans that are left in the US came from. Do we have a big enough "founding population" to ensure a reasonable approximation of the genetic diversity present in the wild population? I would leave it to Tor, Brent, Robb, Adam or whoever else has them. But I'd bet that they would say "no." What happened to all of those Man Creek pumilio offspring? They fell ou tof favor and there aren't that many left because "bigger and better" morphs came in and took the effort away form them. And there are likely other cases where we know lineage, but the frogs became unpopular, or were difficult to breed, and their population was bottle-necked.
> 
> In an ideal world, this would not happen and we would know lineage on all of the frogs. And that is part of TWI's mission. But we are not anywhere near there. And there are other species of frogs that should be represented, but are not yet for legal reasons or because hobbyists prefer colorful to brown frogs (I know, Corey is an exception). So I think it is premature to "outlaw" WC frogs. But we should definitely encourage CB.
> 
> Captive breeding now, for some species, is in its infancy. As we refine techniques for different species, we learn more about those species and others that have similar behavior, ecology, etc. So practice makes perfect for when we have enough of a certain species/morph to consitute a representative genetic sample, even if we know it will require future importations to accomplish that.
> 
> Rich Terrell
> Insular Exotics


Hi Rich,

Isn't it possible that a number of frog species will never be able to be breed in sufficient numbers to meet the hobby demand and, therefore, cheaper wild caught animals will always be in demand? Hasn't this been the case with D. lehmani and Antelopus spp. (and currently with "farm-raised" D. pumilio)?

I think if I want to state as my personal ethic that I will NOT buy any wild collected frogs and not contribute to their depletion in the wild, this position should be applauded, not explained away.

It's a soap-box, but it's my soap-box!! Take care, Richard in Staten island.


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## Woodsman

Code # 614: I promise to respect the froggers who are ahead of me in the hobby and to offer a helping hand to those just behind me.


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## Philsuma

I was about to start an Ethics thread, but I found this one instead. Some decent stuff in here.


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## KaitlinDragon

9. I will do research from many sources, rather than only hear what I want to hear.


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## Dendro Dave

When I have 1000's of dollars in frogs and geckos including some rarer species... I will buy a generator asap...even if I don't think I'll need it. @#$% YOU ICE STORM...and the @#$%in horse you rode in on!!!

Peace.
Dave


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## WaynePaulette

Hmm....

Curious to why i didnt see a single code about chytrid?

Seems like something that is worth preventing and maintaining the safety of your collection.

-Wayne


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## morphman

I will say "I don't know" or " I'm not sure" instead of giving inaccurate information to sound knowledgeable. Especially to youngsters who are the future.

Cheers


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## FoxHound

A newbs considerations,

1. Remember your roots as a PDF owner. Always remember why you got into the hobby in the first place.

2. Always thoughtfully consider advice or an opinion given to you instead of writing it off due to pride or prejudice. Your animals deserve better.

3. Have an emergency medical plan in order for your PDFs.

4. No matter how frustrated you get while constructing new vivariums or tending to problems with your frogs... *HAVE FUN!* (This one is good for the people with short fuses and a tinge of impatience such as myself.) 


Hope nothing I said was to redundant. 
-_FoxHound_


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## Firefur

research every animal before you get it an build it an enclosure as close to the one the animal evolved to as possible regardless of cost or time purposes. a frog in it's natural environment is a frog that is stress free and healthy (according to my herp vet)
handle frogs only if you have to 
and don't build a tank to big you cant carry it out of the house if there is a fire 
always strive to be a better human to your animals. take care of their needs as you would see to any member of the family


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## evolvstlldartfrogs

Tim F said:


> Yeah. Gotta be flexible. It's kinda like hearing, "Honey, we're pregnant..." :roll:


I'm too much of a kid in a candy store. I get online just to compare colors and size and...and then I'm buying more. I might be a tad obsessed.


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## Affordable Exotics

1A) Nor will I lie about the hybrids when selling them to amateur/rookie hobbyests!


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## Affordable Exotics

#) I will only make refference to a frog croaking when he talks,not when he dies......even if it is a funny pun.....lol


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## mrdanz

There are three frogs that would still be alive if I had followed these rules  

It was said before but id like to repeat that I will not jump into a purchase without being ready and willing to do whatever possible to make sure an animal is 100% healthy and happy under my care. 

One thing that stands out is not getting fecal examinations done


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## outofreach

I will not sell frogs to a new guy ( new guy here ) that are tiny tiny babies and represent them as 2 to 4 months


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