# *Please read* Follow these steps so you don't get ripped off by dead beat froggers...



## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Here are some simple rules to go by so you don't get ripped off by deadbeat froggers and how to get your money back if you do!

First and for most,Know who you are buying from; 

This can be done in several ways.A very easy way to start would be to check vender feedback.If the VF has unexplainable,and excessive negative reports,buy at your own risk(you should stay away from these people).You can also ask your friends where they have gotten their frogs from.If there is no feedback thread for someone,you may ask me or another mod if we know of the person you are considering purchasing from.Another good way would be to ask local group members (Mid Atlantic Dendro society, KY Froggers, Northern California Dendrobatid Society, ETC.) as they will know local froggers that can help you find what you are looking for.

Second, 
If for some reason you didn't follow step one and have gotten taken by a deadbeat,there is a few things you can do to get your money back.Start by putting in a claim to paypal.Do NOT allow the "vendor" to give you a million excuses as to why the frogs or dry goods haven't shipped like, It's raining in the midway point(rain should NOT be an issue ever),I'm out of town for a few weeks,I'm off my meds,My mother's sick because she ate bad seafood,my dog ate your purchase order, etc.I've heard of some ridiculous excuses, you'd be surprised.After the first two or three excuses get the ball rolling.These are often excuses designed to prolong the delivery past the point of making a claim to paypal.Don't get roped into this.It should never take more than a week or so and that's only under certain circumstances.Don't get me wrong,there are some legit reasons to hold off shipping like,very cold or extreme heat,but then you should hold off buying them until the vendor (and you)feels comfortable shipping animals safely.

At this point you may be past the time frame of entering a claim through paypal,however put in a claim anyway.Even if it's past the allotted time that allows you to stake your claim,from what I understand enough complaints/claims will result in raising a red flag with paypal and they will give warnings to people trying to pay this guy.I like this because it protects people that aren't on our site and will hinder facebook and other venue rip offs too.

If using paypal, use payment for goods and link it to your credit card.Often even if the claim is too old to go through paypal(again put it through anyway) you can still claim it through your credit card,and they will fight for your money.

If you let it drag on longer than your credit card will entertain it, then you let it go way too long and will probably be beat and can only try and help others not to get taken by this guy.This can be done by leaving negative feedback for him.Don't feel bad for them (He didn't feel bad ripping you off)because they already have a bunch of bad ones or feel that there are enough to warn people.Do your part and leave it no matter what.Obviously at this point you have done all you could to try to rectify the situation.Don't wait too long on this either.This goes full circle to step one and will help others.

The only other thing you can do at this point is to sue the guy in question.legal action may get you your money back if all else fails.
Very important,Keep ALL correspondence with the person,with all the excuses and acknowledgments until the deal is done and you have your product.I personally do this no matter who I'm dealing with so I can reference it if need be.By all,I mean emails,facebook,pm's,texts,and whatever else you have.A judge will look at all this as evidence and it will be an easy case.

I hope this helps at least some people from getting taken.If you follow these simple rules you will be golden.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I would like to add this prepaying for frogs someone does not have is a recipe for disaster, a small deposit is all a legitimate vendor would require or should even take, that way if they did not show or a bunch of them died the vendor would not be on the hook for several hundred $$ they have no way of paying back. Hopefully people will stay away from vendors like Lou describes and get them out of them out of our hobby!!


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Good point Mark! I agree 100%


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Is there a way you can print/save Facebook messages? I was hoping I could do a copy/paste, but that doesn't seem to work.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

phender said:


> Is there a way you can print/save Facebook messages? I was hoping I could do a copy/paste, but that doesn't seem to work.


I'd recommend just taking screenshots. You can use the snipping tool on Windows.


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

It is a federal crime to defraud someone of money with intent, especially across state lines. Usually called, "wire fraud" if internet or phone was used. Dollar amount is very important, also amount of victims. FBI handles such cases involving thousands of dollars and or multiple victims. 

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'd like to make an important note about PayPal claims. 
If you start a PayPal claim, do not remove it for any reason, until you are fully satisfied.
The reason is, you have only ONE chance to file a claim for this particular payment. If you remove it, you can NEVER refile that claim. You put the claim in and let it run it's course no matter what sob story your vendor gives you. Trust me, he is well aware of that.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

SilverLynx said:


> It is a federal crime to defraud someone of money with intent, especially across state lines. Usually called, "wire fraud" if internet or phone was used. Dollar amount is very important, also amount of victims. FBI handles such cases involving thousands of dollars and or multiple victims.
> 
> Thanks,
> Lane, aka, SilverLynx


This is a good reason why I say to keep ALL correspondence between both parties.



Pumilo said:


> I'd like to make an important note about PayPal claims.
> If you start a PayPal claim, do not remove it for any reason, until you are fully satisfied.
> The reason is, you have only ONE chance to file a claim for this particular payment. If you remove it, you can NEVER refile that claim. You put the claim in and let it run it's course no matter what sob story your vendor gives you. Trust me, he is well aware of that.


Agreed,don't let them tell you "Please remove the claim and I'll send your frogs".If they want you to remove the claim,tell them to send the frogs then you'll remove the claim.If Paypal rules in your favor and you get the frogs,then you close the claim.If you get the money back during the point of the frogs being shipped to you,then you can send the money back.After all, this person had your money when you trusted them with it.And again,even if it's too late file a claim and or complaint.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

If paid with a CC I would go to them first, AMEX especially protects their card holders, if you paid for frogs and did not get them demand a refund....."no matter how insane these sand skinks are".


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

markpulawski said:


> If paid with a CC I would go to them first, AMEX especially protects their card holders, if you paid for frogs and did not get them demand a refund....."no matter how insane these sand skinks are".


Good point Mark. I have had to file PayPal claims on 2 occasions, and I've also helped several people through a claim. I can tell you that PayPal is very good about protecting purchasers, but they are slow. You will get your money back, BUT filing directly through your credit card company will likely be much faster. The PayPal process takes many weeks to complete before your money is refunded.


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

One thing I'd like to add, if the deal sounds too good to be true then it probably is. Back in my early frogging days I was a member of another forum (talktothefrog) and a supposed very reputable member ripped dozens of forum members (myself included) out of thousands of dollars by promising super rare frogs. Looking back I can't believe I fell for it, but I didn't know any better at the time. After months of getting the runaround we finally got law enforcement involved at which point his family bailed him out and refunded everyone their money to prevent us from pressing charges. I got my money back but it was a hard lesson learned.

Sent from my LG-LG730 using Tapatalk


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I believe this should be a sticky ... a terrific post from all of you....wish I had this before I got &#[email protected]!(*...


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Stick with, 

If *you don't know* the seller, don't know anyone you can* ask about* the seller, and don't know enough to *trust* them with a handful of your cash...

Then move onto someone you can.

Thanks for the post Lou, and for your hard work with the community. 

Shawn


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I`ve never gotten burned in all my years here. Every dart frog I ever owned came from the same sponsor. 
Every plant I ever purchased also came from the same 2 sponsors.
Every bug I ever bought came from 2 maybe 3 people.
I would give my hard earned money to any of these people knowing I can fully trust them.
I would gladly share who these people are, just shoot me a pm.

If you get beat it`s your own fault.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

John...some of us have to learn the hard way...it may be the $15 dollars that someone still owes me...but to have "fellow" froggers screw over you just changes things by a tiny bit...and takes that "fellowship" away...you either get it or you don't...


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Judy S said:


> John...some of us have to learn the hard way...it may be the $15 dollars that someone still owes me...but to have "fellow" froggers screw over you just changes things by a tiny bit...and takes that "fellowship" away...you either get it or you don't...


I agree Judy and you`re one of the people I would trust.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

My advice is to not keep $ in your PayPal acct. Only time I do is after payment for frogs before they shipped just in case something "knocking on wood" happens.
I had a bad transaction in the past and it pulled from my PayPal balance the difference when disputed was paid with AMEX, unfortunately not much.
I agree with Mark, AMEX is the best way to go, no paperwork just a phone call.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Another thing I like to do is have the person you are buying from send you pictures of the actual frogs .This ensures they even have the animals in question especially if they are rare.I've bought some frogs sight unseen,but only from people I really trust and have done business with before.


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## John-Michael (Sep 21, 2013)

sports_doc said:


> Stick with,
> 
> If *you don't know* the seller, don't know anyone you can* ask about* the seller, and don't know enough to *trust* them with a handful of your cash...
> 
> ...


Where/Who would I ask about a seller?


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

You can pm any moderator or check the vendor feedback section


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Sadly, this thread needs to be bumped.

PLEASE everyone, be careful if someone you don't know and haven't seen on the forum before starts messaging you about your wanted ad.

If you click on someone's profile and view their page (Like mine here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members/carola1155.html) on the right side you can see their mini statistics. This shows how many posts, how long they have been here, etc etc.

If someone just joined the forum less than a week ago and has zero posts... THIS IS A HUGE RED FLAG. We had someone join this forum on 7/6 and in less than a week has taken over $1000 from at least 4 different people.

Ask for references! Find another reputable member of the forum that knows this person and speak with them! Do not give in to the temptation of getting the frogs you want for the right price if it means buying them from an unfamiliar source with no background.

Another way to protect yourself is to always use Paypal! When you use it, do NOT send money as "friends and family" as a way of being friendly or being nice. Sellers should expect and understand that you are going to send it for the purchase of goods and they should accept the fees. If they have a problem with that, move on!


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I had been in some longterm discussions about buying a "proven" pair of Mont Attachi Bakkas from a DB member who only occasionally posts...so had pictures sent to me, was about to pay too much for them...seemed like a nice guy...etc., etc.--up until the point when I asked if the pair were indeed "proven"--what was done with the froglets or tadpoles... Have not heard from him since--and am still kinda ticked off about it...if someone wants to sell their frogs and are legit--this should not have happened....


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Good timing for this thread to be bumped Judy (and Tom)!

Thank you.

s


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## Swampwater (Jun 2, 2015)

I definitely learned my lesson. I'll be doing a lot more research on the person I'm buying from now on. I feel so stupid for falling for this scam but oh well. 


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Why is this scammer not being outed?


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Why is this scammer not being outed?


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/287425-tomatofrog1-aka-fishy45.html

I believe that is the offending party. Mods feel free to remove if you find this post violates a TOS that I'm unaware of.


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## Adirondack Chinchillas (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm with you Swampwater. I've learned the hard way.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

TarantulaGuy said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/287425-tomatofrog1-aka-fishy45.html
> 
> I believe that is the offending party. Mods feel free to remove if you find this post violates a TOS that I'm unaware of.


nah you're good! posting a link to a feedback thread is always recommended... as any posts there have been moderated. Though, in this case we have been a little loose with the requirements in an effort to get information out quickly.

Also, to answer Rusty_Shackleford's post... we haven't "outted" anything beyond the feedback thread above because at this point we don't even know the person's real name. There have been at least 5 different names and emails, as well as 2 different paypal accounts involved here. We are still digging though... Anyone with information is encouraged to bring it forward.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> Also, to answer Rusty_Shackleford's post... we haven't "outted" anything beyond the feedback thread above because at this point we don't even know the person's real name. There have been at least 5 different names and emails, as well as 2 different paypal accounts involved here. We are still digging though... Anyone with information is encouraged to bring it forward.


It's all good I just hope this guy gets caught. The more the information is out there the less victims he'll have and he'll eventually wither away. I hope everyone gets their money back or gets their frogs quickly. 

Unfortunately I have to speculate that the person is somewhat familiar with the hobby. It looks like they picked some rather low profile or unsuspicious frogs to fake sell. An outsider might say they have rarer frogs in order to scam larger amounts of money. Sad to say this isn't the first time for this, nor will it be the last.

Just curious if the admins could get an ip address of the scammer from ads or communications?

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## Telly80 (Mar 28, 2016)

He got me too. Or at least, I'm supposed to have frogs shipped tomorrow, but based on what I've read today, I'm not holding my breath. 



There were some red flags. Mostly I just couldn't find any previous info. I should have trusted my gut. But I've been searching for months, and I bit!
He knew enough about the hobby to know what we wanted. (Answering want ads helped) but he knew about how much it should cost! Good enough price to bite without it being too good to be true. 

And I got pictures! Not obvious internet photos either. They look like IPhone pics. Of exactly what I was looking for. (Female UE Tarapoto)

If I hadn't seen the scammer thread I wouldn't be worried until Thursday or Friday when they don't show up. 

Maybe I'll be the 1% that actually gets my frogs but I'm not holding my breath.


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