# Tanks for raising tads in w/ the parents



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Finally a cheap and effective way to save time, effort and money and see all the natural activities of tad raising w/ tincs, truncatus, galactonotus, auratus, azureus etc. and you don`t have to allote more space for tads and froglets as they`ll grow up to saleable size in the tank w/ the parents. 














































cost is about
sterilite - $10
spigot - $2
glass - $10
eggcrate - $10/3 tanks
mesh netting - $ i forget, cheap
pvc pipe - $2-4
aquarium gravel - $3
So, for $30/tank you can have everything you need minus substrate plants and cage decor to raise dart frogs. Just add the frogs and feed. 
You'll want to add a good layer of oak leaf mulch to the bottom of the pvc for the tads food to grow on. Clean pvc w/ gravel bottoms doesn`t work that well. The parents will bring in coco peat, detritus, etc and i`m trying to add a piece of bark to each tad container for climbing out, although they seem to not have a problem w/ the vertical walls of the pvc. As the moss grows in it should get better. The tads will also eat any springs and ff`s that fall into their trap. muhahaha :lol: 
So far I have raised(they have raised) blue sips, truncatus, turq and bronze and super blue auratus, nikita, yellowback, dwarfs, leucs, galacts and azureus. I`m working on a design for phyllobates next. 
This will give me the ability to have more unrelated pairs w/out the added space for tads, the pain of tracking tads or any of the work. Tads have been taking about 3 months to emerge under this system and there can be 20 or more placement sites. 



















The froglets are a little smaller than cup raised froglets but should get better as the tanks age. I know it`s not the prettiest rack but it`s sufficient. I have to finalize my experiments in different designs before i finish the floor and get everything all nicied up.



















Hopefully this will help keep our frogs from going the way of the silkworm!!!


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

Aaron, 
Very interesting project. Great documentation, thanks for sharing all of your work. Continue to keep us posted.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

Aaron touched on this subject at Midwest Frog Fest. The talk was fascinating and worth seeing again. If Aaron would do it again you'd be glad you caught it.


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## jejton (Sep 3, 2006)

Whats the " way of the silkworm " ? Nice setup. 2 questions. Do you do water changes in the pvc pipes? How do you prevent the frogs from getting stuck between the pvc pipes ?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Uh May Zing! Nice work.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Silkworms can only be bred in captivity by placing adults in the same petri dish. They have lost the ability to fly, if memory serves me correct, from us doing all the work for breeding them.

I`ve done 1 or 2 water changes in 3+months. Open the spigot and water drains out thru the pvc drain into the bucket(at the moment, i can`t wait for drains in the floor). There is only gravel at the bottom so it`s kinda like a natural system, with the tads sunk into the false bottom to the reservoir. Draining the reservoir and refilling is a tad change. Sprayer adds water and it periodically has to be lowered. 
pack between the pvc w/ gravel and terra mix. they should look great once the moss grows inbetween the pvc. the tads should eat moss and algea growing in the pvc. some may need to be cleaned if there are never any tads in it w/ flies and stuff drowning in it.

now on to pumilio and thumbnails: hard to escape from tanks.
































































Cheap and REAL easy. Don`t need how to pics for this one. get a pvc tub W/ A LIP ALL THE WAY AROUND THE TUB. This way your cut glass can nest into the lip for an escape proof cage. The ones w/ the deep ridged soap spots that drain into the tub below the level of the lip won`t work unless siliconed or great stuffed to the top of the back wall w/ glass in place. 
tub - $14 - 20
Glass $6-10
Stuff mesh into the drain hole, fill w/ a layer of gravel or hydroton or not. Add terra mix and short broms and decorate. Put a bucket under it.
Add misting nozzels or hand mist but you will need to jet spray every once in a while to flush tad sites. Works for thumbs and pumilio. W/ the money saved you could probably add a cube to the top w/ front opening doors. 
cost - $20-$30ea. plus accessories.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

This is pretty cool stuff. The idea above for thums and pums is similar to what I am doing with soem pums of mine for a temp enclosure. Basically I use a large sterilite bin with a snap locking top (the one Ihave is about he smae size and shape as a 29 gallon tank) and create a false bottom in it. I then add a drain spigot (but you don't have to if you just want to siphon out) and then build up the substrate and leaf litter layer on top. Throw in some driftwood or cork bark sections to mount broms at different levels and you're done. To make the top inescapable and seal in humidity, all you need to do is put a sheet of saran wrap that will hang over all the edges about 2-3 inches or so. When the locking top goes on it actually pushes the saran wrap down and seals it all the way around and makes it impossible to slip out. If you want, a misting nozzle can easily be added to the lid, but hand misting has kept me in the high 90's for humidity. It's been a great temporary solution to housing frogs without having to make another viv for them. It's no exactly the same as what Aaron has above, but like his it's simple and effective.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

WOW!!!

Can't wait for that next frog meeting at your place to see all this stuff UP CLOSE & PERSONAL


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Very cool Aaron... I was thinking of something similar, but just for froglets. 

How long has this been in the works or how do you like the results based on the time you have worked with it?

Where do you get the spigots?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

These are all the first froglets coming out. 
I LOVE IT!! It solves a space problem, sorting problem, caring for the eggs problem, caring for the tads problem. only the strongest survive. With the lower #`s of froglets i can get unrelated pairs and offer unrelated animals.
I may even be able to vacation someday! :lol:
spigots are from leisure-time.com, i think. in the beer brewing section.


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## El_Rana (May 29, 2004)

That's very smart :idea: 

Thank you!
Aaron


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> I may even be able to vacation someday!


Vacation??? Whats that ????


Very nice set ups AAron!!!!


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Vacation??? Whats that ???? 

exactly!!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2006)

Looks great! Just to get a sense of scale, what site sterlite is that and what size pvc are you using?


How do you envision the set-up will be different for _Phyllobates_?


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

Fantastic idea!


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

my hat is 100% off to you (proudly displaying my receding hairline, i might add... :x ). very impressive to see someone first have a SOLID understanding of breeding behavior, young animal husbandry, etc... and then find an elegant way to make it all work for pennies (compared to more complex and/or manual systems), all while maintaining simplicity.

very very nice.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Cool, so do they "know" where to put and not to put the tads so you don't end up with feeder tads, or do you have to separate them now and then, or do you just leave it up to fate?


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Great 'conservativeness,' time/space. I normally skip this forum, but today I'm glad I decided not to.

I was thinking of making something similar to the set up to observe any deposition preferences of parenting frogs.

Aaron-have you experimented w/ this idea:

Having a mid land section and on opposite sides of it (2) say you have a dozen set on one side left 'dirty' and on the opposing side have an identical set but kept 'clean' (no moss/algae/flies) w/ daily changes. 
Chart results of varying ratios of one over the other w/ the same adults/same enclosure over multiple breeding sessions. The actions taken by future generations of these frogs would be interesting as well.

The "silkworm effect" is due to being containerized (in a smaller than needed space to fully extend). So vertical spaces might be needed for (some) darts to maintain (complete/successful) rearing cpabilities into far reaching generations, as the need to search is no longer abound. I don't know if that would hinder 'instinct' later and inadvertantly effect other (multiple) aspect(s) of breeding or not, just a thought.

This wouldn't neccessarily be to prove/compare health of emerging froglets, but this could/should be documented along w/ the rest of the experiment. Even though I think most by now know the answer to that.


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

W-O-W! That is awesome Aaron. Any updates on how this is going, also I have to second, what size are the conatainers for the tinc setups?


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## yuri (Feb 18, 2004)

This is great Aaron! It is always refreshing to see something different.

Any idea if the total time from egg to froglet is longer or shorter ot the same as cup raised?

Yuri



> The froglets are a little smaller than cup raised froglets but should get better as the tanks age. I know it`s not the prettiest rack but it`s sufficient.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

it takes longer for them to morph, close to 4 months. some are doubling up on tads in the same rearing vessel because there isn`t enough at 20/tank(they become food). the auratus are coming out very large for never being fed. i`m getting my first blue sips out now. the truncatus don`t seem to be doing as well. probably because there wasn`t enough leaf mulch in their containers. the more crud at the bottom the quicker they grow.
i`m going to start working w/ different leaves as mulch and see what works best. the phyllos seem to eat the leaves down to the skeleton and so do some tincs. i`m also setting up my phyllos to carry there tads and i`ll take them from there. they then go into their sterilite 15g tank where i just drain the water to allow for a land area when they are ready to emerge. this will use the same tank to raise the tads and frogllets. when the first ones are ready to come out i drain off 5 gallons and since it`s slanted 1/2 the tank holds the rest of the tads since it takes about 2-3 week for all of them to come out of the water. this way there is only a 2 stage system for each clutch/pair. the parents transport the tads to a water bowl then i remove them and put them into their final rearing tank till they are sold. i`ll be better able to measure space and not overbreed to the point where i have tanks set up upstairs in my living space.
we`ll see how this goes as my vittatus stopped dropping them in the bowl and scattered them all over the tank for fear i would steal them again. i was surprised he deposited tads according to water size. half the clutch usually went to the biggest container and the rest were split up in the smaller 2. 
as i watch this i`m wondering if egg feeding did`nt arise out of lack of enough tad rearing spots. if tads are going to get eatin because they are dropping 2 or 3 or more tads in a container they might as well egg feed. just as w/ bean sprouts and beans, there is mmore energy in an egg as food than there is in a tadpole and you have to worry about predation before getting the tad to another one for food and fertil;ity. the egg won`t get to a tad and serve as energy if it doesnt get fertilized.
i`m overall very happy w/ this system. since i have a business it`s not good for me or the frogs to collect out all their eggs. some were producing more than 7 a week and that`s too much for me and them. some pairs have slowed down now that their raising their own. some took a break after just a few froglets. all in all its better for me to produce less frogs and have more diversity. it`s set up a system for me to easily track each clutch w/out labeling petri dishes and tad containers, it weeds out the weaklings as a new tad will come along and outcompete you if your not in the best of health. i love it and i think it will actually keep me in the hobby and actually let me expand to offer more bloodlines and more types of frogs w/out having to expand and increase my workload. it`s a more natural system, it`s more advanced to give me more of a challange and room to learn and start pondering all the questions i have and can`t go down there to figure out. 
w/ eliminating the substrate from my froglet raising sterilites and only using cork and leaves, the tanks are deeper, easier to keep clean. the bannana in the petri dish allows for a "meter" of how much to feed, should i need a vacation. if there are flies on the banana no need to feed, if there arent add some flies. 
just a little business insight, i have about 30-45 frogs from each of the pairs i got rid of right now. that means i was raising about 5 frogs a week from pairs whose offspring i was getting 25-20/wholesale(10-12 for auratus) for at about 2-3 months old or more.
for business expenses(ff supplies, electric 3k+ watts 16hrs a day, heat, advertising, shows,gas,webhosting,tanks,glass,new frogs,misting system,crickets, lights, bulbs, pvc,eggcrate,viv substrate, water purification, pummp to make sure i HAVE water, flood insurance,health insurance for the sole employee, business insurance, generator, etc.etc.etc.) it doesnt do me good to sell frogs for $10 to $5 over what it costs to produce them. I won`t sell terrarium supplies to compete w/ all the others who do. it has to be shipped seperately anyway and i`m not a businessman. i don`t want ups here everyday. i want to have a greenhouse and i wan`t to breed frogs, save frogs and learn about frogs before they are gone. unfortunately i have to sell them or i`d be overrun soon. unfortunately i have to pay bills and pay for this place. unfortunately i have to go out and socialize every once in a while for my own mental health :lol: :lol: luckily it`s usually fishing, ice fishing or hunting though :wink: 
i really enjoy the way things are going w/ these new setups. i should be able to get a big break soon and it`s really keeping me from leaving for something like landscaping(beautifully brainless artistic and you get a great sense of accomplishment every day. it`s healthy and gives you a great tan, something i`m sorely lacking.) 
i know i`m rambling but you guys are my only social outlet and i need therapy so deal w/ it :wink: 
now if i could get more time to watch the tad deposition and monitor the tanks better, set up a couple experiments w/ different leaf types and froglets morphing size. i`m noticing some aquatic inverts in some of my tanks and only in the containers w/out tads as the tads are scarfing them up. i`m working on culturing them.
to sum up, it`s great to be learning and changing and experimenting again. it`s all because of breeding pumilio and ideas ive ran w/ from this board. the whole leafs and no water change and possible droughts around here coupled w/ the idea that these things raise themselves in the wild kept me up nights trying to design a system. upon further reading about falsse bottom tanks and mesh and looking at my tad system gave me this design. seems as if the hormone inhibitors may work more on other species than their own. tads seem to be developing fine regardless of size. maybe the gravel keeps the water in each container therefore keeping the inhibitors from spreading. still a lot to learn from these systems and further experiments w/ leaf foods and aquatic inverts. eventually i`d like to learn more about insects and culturing(when i get the space and time) and plants to couple w/ my growing knowledge on darts. it`s so nice to hit another plateau and be able to study again. thanks to everyone who led to this design!
i`d really like to try and get a patent and work w/ a company for designing different tanks like this. i`ve got so many ideas for different designs but no time for prototypes and no time to learn how to work w/ plastics to make what`s in my mind.
well that`s my time for the morning. there`s a lot to ponder here and a lot of room for working off this for some elaborate new designs. you guys get out your great stuff and get to work! :lol: :wink: 
sorry again about punctuation and capitals, i don`t have time and i`m down to 7 typing fingers.(2 burned on the chainsaw and 1 cut pretty bad)
oh and if anyone has a way to rid the house of flying squrrels please let me know. i`ve gotta go evict 2 now and their chewing thru my new roof!! arghhh!
and at this point it doesn`t have to be humane!! :evil: :evil: that was a joke, i could never kill something that looks so much like a teddy bear. they actually look a lot like bush babies w/ their big eyes.


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## yuri (Feb 18, 2004)

Aaron,

Have you considered a cat or two where the squirrels are? I think they would serve as a deterrent, rather than a hunter. Assuming the area is in your attice space, finishing it off a bit (rough floors) might be all you need. The cat(s) would have a wonderful time trying to figure out what is making the noise. A small, scappy dog might also fit the bill - maybe better than a cat since presumably it will bark and scare off the squirrels?

Funny, I am trying to see if I can attract the squirrels to our yard (city with small pockets of woods). I guess I should be careful what I wish for.

Taking the frog tanks to a new level is exciting. You mentioned the froglets are smaller, however, I wonder if their hardiness is higher, given they have to fend for themselves and are not 'pampered'. I really like that you are allowing the frogs to do what they do in situ. I suspect you will be creating a more genetically robust frog population, since those whose genetic makeup is not ideal, will be taken out of the gene pool, whereas the better suited ones go on to thrive and perhaps pass their genes on to the next generation. Granted the frogs are in a captive situation, however, trying to get them to act more like they would in the wild (I suspect) can only be good.

Thanks for all this inspiration!


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

they are coming out smaller to how i raise tads. ive been getting some froglets out of the water at 3/4 - 7/8 inch long from how i raise them out of the tanks.
with the length of time they are in there and some tweaking of the mulch mix, the buildup of aquatic inverts, with some time and observation they`ll get better. if i overfeed a little more for ff`s to drown and put in more springs on a regular basis.
with pulling some tads and experimenting w/ all this i should be able to narrow it down.
one of the keys is to have all the tad containers constantly full so that tads can clean up the drown bugs and everything else that needs to get converted to food for the food of the tads to use to grow to keep the cycle going.

no attic, vaulted shed roof from 7-15 feet w/ corrugated steel ceiling 12inch green I beams and insulation and venting above the steel. the squirrels are coming in thru the as of yet unwrapped eaves. it`s just coming up w/ the money to wrap the eaves or getting the alum and bending it myself which i`m too lazy to do. i hate the thought of spending 4x as much as it`d cost to do it myself but i think the damage the squirrels are/will do will be many times more.
just venting and trying to find a quick cheap fix. the cat or dog is too much of a responsibility right now(thanks for the idea though). i just woke up again to them coming in this morning and had to vent after chasing 2 squirrels thru the house w/ my morning coffee. they`re like noisy kids coming in after a late night. i just found they`ve been storing nuts up in the ceiling over the tads room. i can see it now, pulling down the steel to insulate w/ 1/2inch sheets and getting buried in the overabundant walnuts from the yard.


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## argus411 (Feb 17, 2004)

Just came across this.Interesting BUMP!!


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Unfortunately, most of the pics don't show. can you fix this Aaron?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

sorry, pics are gone. I had to make room in my gallery for others.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

They are deleted? You have no copies to post?
Oh, sad day for us froggers!!


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