# European vs American Vivs: Discuss.



## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

Occasionally someone references Euro or European or even German vivs. It seems to me that many here in the New World are now also doing very similar things.
What are the key differences in the two styles? Are there still differences, or are they really two styles? Which do you prefer, and why? 

Here is the best discussion here I could find:
How do you get those European Looking Tanks? 
It has some other good links in it, too.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

The key difference is that Europeans tend to use custom made front-opening style vivaria and they tend to be larger than American vivaria. Americans have severely limited themselves by sticking with converted aquariums. Don't get me wrong, Americans are closing the gap, but I think the tendency to go with the cheapest possible solution still nags at progress in America.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Sadly I will toss some of it up to laziness or unwillingness to try something new. Many times we Americans go for what we know and can guarantee (a pre made tank) rather than what we could build. Without experience building a large enclosures it can take skill, time, and tools that can quickly up the cost. All of this vs buying a tank which here in the states can be bought at the local grocery store. We maybe lazy but we are masters of convenience.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

bbrock said:


> I think the tendency to go with the cheapest possible solution still nags at progress in America.


and that is probably the KEY difference....


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Take a look at hobbies in general, here and in europe, and you will probably see most europeans take their hobbies more seriously.


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

I think a big reason is that a lot of Americans seem to try to 'collect' more and more species, and unless you have a lot of room for tanks, it's hard to have a lot of nice custom tanks. It's easier when one has a large and diverse collection to just use pre-made aquariums and simply convert them. On the other hand, I think if someone only plans on working with one or two different species, it'd be more achievable to create a custom vivarium. I don't know if this makes sense, but I think this could play a role.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

for us europeans it is actually cheaper and easier to use the european-style custom-made vivs, as there are many people (both hobbyists and professionals) building and selling them. 
using an aquarium would mean converting one yourself and thinking about all the problems you could encounter while doing that.
Not too many people are building the terrariums from scratch themselves (why would they: we are just as lazy as americans :wink 

as for spending more money on the tanks: in Belgium and the Netherlands, well-designed front opening vivs are actually cheaper than the (for dartfrogs) not-so-perfect exoterra ones. And converting an aquarium wouldn't be (much) cheaper either.
I get the impression we do tend to spend more money on lights and maybe plants. (but then again we don't have to spend as much money on the frogs it seems).

and there are a lot of "collectors" on this side of the pond too. in the last years I have the impression vivs are getting smaller and smaller (maybe because people tend to have more smaller species, specially pumilio's, compared to when I started 10 years ago)


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

NathalieB said:


> using an aquarium would mean converting one yourself and thinking about all the problems you could encounter while doing that.


I'd be curious to know how the typical European hobbyist would go about converting an aquarium for PDF use. Would it require more than just adding substrate, plants, a canopy, and lights?

All I know is that I've never stepped into a frog room in the States and seen anything that compares to the exquisite examples we've seen photographed in Europe and Japan. I understand that those photographs come from the most dedicated hobbyists who have, no doubt, invested far more money than the average hobbyist, but America isn't a poor country so... Also, I have not seen a single example of a vivarium in the States with the custom features such as sloping double floors and sloping fronts as are apparently being used as somewhat standard in Sweden or Germany.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

bbrock said:


> I'd be curious to know how the typical European hobbyist would go about converting an aquarium for PDF use. Would it require more than just adding substrate, plants, a canopy, and lights?


most people converting aquariums are people who used to be into fish and make the switch to pdf's. 
when they come to the dutch or belgian forums asking "how do I convert my aquarium" the typical first answer is "don't". if they insist people think of rather complicated solutions like "turning the aquarium on it's side so the top opening is facing forward. making sliding doors and ventilation in the front. drilling the top for ventilation." or "cutting out the front glass and replace it by sliding doors". we tend to firmly hold on to the front-opening principle and the whole natural ventilation thing.
people who have converted aquariums tend to get "real" vivariums when they expand their hobby. I think the biggest "issues" in converting the aquarium are how to make the terrarium fruitfly-proof and escape-proof AND allowing enough ventilation.

as said, we have some very good and rather cheap terrarium makers so why bother with less-than-perfect sollutions when you can have a "perfect" terrarium for about the same price?




bbrock said:


> All I know is that I've never stepped into a frog room in the States and seen anything that compares to the exquisite examples we've seen photographed in Europe and Japan. I understand that those photographs come from the most dedicated hobbyists who have, no doubt, invested far more money than the average hobbyist, but America isn't a poor country so... Also, I have not seen a single example of a vivarium in the States with the custom features such as sloping double floors and sloping fronts as are apparently being used as somewhat standard in Sweden or Germany.


I think front opening terrariums are sooooooooo much easier to landscape. 
the most stunning photo's you see are from really huge terrariums and I can't even think how you could landscape them if you would only have access from the top. I'm sure they wouldn't look half as good.

the sloping bottom has indeed becom a standard feature but you could just as easily make a sloping bottom with GS (that's what I do everytime. does the same thing and saves me another 20 bucks per vivarium or so). you used to see the sloping front ones quit a lot but I think they aren't beeing used that often anymore. 

I think it is al a matter of habit. converting an aquarium is the easiest options for you guys as 1) you can get them everywhere and they're cheap 2) a lot of people did it before you so you can find a lot of examples, information and help


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I think front opening terrariums are sooooooooo much easier to landscape.


Definitely! I think this is why options like the commercially available Exo-Terra and Zoomed tanks are gaining in popularity here in the US and they are the only tanks that I use, though I would like to explore larger custom options at some stage for larger display tanks.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Thanks Nathalie,

That's kind of what I thought. Europeans simply don't tolerate top opening vivaria and I couldn't agree more. In the interest of full disclosure, most of my vivaria are salvaged aquariums either given to me, or left over from having fish tanks. I do have one large custom front opening vivarium and have been trying to move toward getting rid of all aquarium-based vivaria because I absolutely hate them. Front opening is really the only way to go. I do know that many people have gotten good at converting aquaria to front-opening vivaria and I've done it myself. My experience was that I spent just as much time (but not as much money) converting the aquarium as building a vivarium from scratch. But if I had to purchase the aquarium (it was a leftover from fish), it would have actually cost me more to convert the aquarium than to build it from scratch.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I will say one thing on behalf of us Yanks though. If the new Poison Frogs book is an indication of the state-of-the-art in Europe for exploiting ecosystem processes inside vivaria, I think we are leading the charge there. I saw several things glossed over as relatively unimportant in that book which I think can have a significant impact on the functioning of the vivarium ecosystem.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I saw several things glossed over as relatively unimportant in that book which I think can have a significant impact on the functioning of the vivarium ecosystem.


Brent,

Can you expand on this a bit? I haven't yet seen the book you are referencing, but I'm interested in knowing what areas in the European hobby are deficient or underdeveloped in reference to vivarium ecological processes.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> as for spending more money on the tanks: in Belgium and the Netherlands, well-designed front opening vivs are actually cheaper than the (for dartfrogs) not-so-perfect exoterra ones.


So is this more an issue of what builders are asking for them in the states? Because in my experience, a well-designed front opening viv is about the most expensive option available.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Nathalie,
So after reading your comments it left me with two real questions....
1. HOW are the custom builders able to create them so cheaply? Unless things are vastly different over there, buying uncut glass isn't exactly cheap and if you have to cut it... look out. I really want to start building my own, but cost has been rather prohibitive so far... how are they making it cheap?
2. The sloping bottom you are talking about .... is this what you are talking about (borrowed from barbar0's thread)?








I apparently am not getting it because I just don't understand why the sloping bottom is much better... can you explain?

P.S... sorry, thought of another question... do you know what the name of the material is that the Europeans typically use for the vent material? It looks like metal mesh, but???


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

I don't know how they can make them so cheap... buying glass in very large quantities I imagine. (or we have a different opinion on "cheap" and the exo-terrathings and aquariums are just really expensive over here).
you have a few full-time terrarium builders who build a lot of them so they must get their glass very cheap.
I once calculated how much the glass would cost me if I build the terrarium myself and only the glass would cost me about 3 times as much as I had to pay for a fully assembled terrarium.

the sloping bottom is to evacuate all the water to the front where most vivs have a drain (you can see the hole for the drain on the picure). it is to keep the substrate on the floor from getting too wet.
in some cases the back is open so you can put a heatmat under the false bottom but I haven't seen this much.

the stuff we use for the ventilation areas is called "petrolfilter" (very freely translated). it is indeed very fine metal mesh and you can find it in some autopart-shops as it is used for filtering some things in the engine I think.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

flyangler18 said:


> > I saw several things glossed over as relatively unimportant in that book which I think can have a significant impact on the functioning of the vivarium ecosystem.
> 
> 
> Brent,
> ...


Sure. Section 2.5 "Terrarium decoration and setup" begins with a brief description of abiotic and biotic factors that sets up the philosophy as ony looking at the terrarium as something that fills the basic needs of the frogs. No indication that a functioning ecosystem inside the box would provide benefit. And then there are comments like these (all from Lotter et al. 2007. _Poison Frogs: Biology, Species, and Captive Husbandry_:



> From Section 2.5 - "Generally speaking, the bottom substrate plays a lesser role in the keeping of poison frogs, which does not mean, however, that it is not deserving of attention. The frogs are only exposed to it when they are on the ground, for example, while foraging or when they seek shelter beneath leaf litter or roots. Therefore, the layer of substrate normally just needs to be functional. It would probably be nice to have original rainforest soil, but owing to a number of biological processes (e.g. decomposition) this would actually be possible, or even desireable, only with limitations."


The first part that stands out is an apparent lack of understanding that mineral soils do not decompose other than through weathering processes over geologic time. The rest is technically correct and good advice for a basic understanding of dart frog needs, but seems to ignore the potential role of substrates in developing a sustainable food source and nutrient cycling within the vivarium.



> Section 2.6 Terrarium technology in general - "Terraria always suffer from ventilation that is less effective than in nature. This may often give rise to unnaturally high concentrations of germs that may regularly cause the frog's clutches of eggs to be spoilt by fungal infections. Some keepers have therefore tried to counteract this by using UV-lamps in their terraria, as UV-radiation kills germs and spores. This method has been successful in some instances, but no really conclusive observations exist yet on the possible effects on the frogs."


This statement follows a previous statement about UV lamps on the same page indicating they are available but expensive and they wear out. As far as I've seen, UV radiation is only mentioned in the book as a possible germicidal. No mention of it's potential role in vitamin D3 synthesis and calcium metabolism. So the potential for using UVB radiation to offset some problems with frog nutrition seems to not be getting any attention.

Also missing from the book is any discussion about the potential for creating sustainable populations of soil microfauna within a vivarium, very scant mention of the role of habitat hetergeneity, and a general feeling that the focus is on the immediate needs of the frog and how we can artificially provide those needs. Don't get me wrong, it is a fantastic book and the advice in it is very good. But it seems that they decided these ecosystem type processes were either unimportant or too advanced for the audience of their book. But looking at the level of detail, the professionalism of the content, and the price of the book, I hardly think any subject is too advanced for the audience. So I came away with the conclusion that Europeans, in general, may not be as interested in the internal ecological processes and cycles as we are. That may not be correct, but at the very least, it would seem that most of the info and discussion on this subject is originating in the US and not in Europe.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Nathalie,
Thanks for that info... I'll have to do some hunting around for the vent material.
I do think that you are right about the glass prices... it's the only thing I have been able to come up with for how they could do it so cheap.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

sbreland said:


> Nathalie,
> Thanks for that info... I'll have to do some hunting around for the vent material.
> I do think that you are right about the glass prices... it's the only thing I have been able to come up with for how they could do it so cheap.


McMaster-Carr has a full line of meshes in any size and material you want.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

Brent, I agree with you. I personally have never witnessed any discussion regardingthe substrate similar to what I have seen here. most discussions on bottoms, backgrounds etc. focus on the aesthetic.
ofcourse some people may pay attention to the role the substrate plays in the ecosystem, but it is not a general topic of interest.

the UV discussion ís something that lives here a little bit but as most people here supplement vitamins in powder(on feeders) and/or liquid (in spraying water) form, most people do not see the need for UV-lamps.


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## retry (Feb 2, 2007)

i live in the uk and nearly all vivs used for frogs seem to be standard euro design.
also here 4 mm glass is fairly cheap to buy and have cut to size in comparison to a complete viv so one can build their own viv for roughly half the price of a shop bought 1.

the mesh used in the front and also a strip in the top is 0.5 mm stainless steel mesh.
having a low vent in the front and a vent at the top allows air movement through the viv and also stops the front glass steaming up.
i think the forward sloping internal glass is so that there is no sitting water in the base as it drains into the channel at the front where there is a drain hole so as the misters spray it just drains away and needs no siphoning or draining at regular intervals.
there is also normally a hole in the top glass for a misting nozzle.
overall it is a far superior design over a fish tank for frogs


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

sbreland said:


> Nathalie,
> Thanks for that info... I'll have to do some hunting around for the vent material.
> I do think that you are right about the glass prices... it's the only thing I have been able to come up with for how they could do it so cheap.


they can do it with their eyes closed too. a friend once saw a 100x60x60cm terrarium made from scratch in less than 45 minutes. so they can make a lot of vivs in one day. 

I have only build one viv myself and used wood (only the front in glass) much easier to work with and cheaper I think and all the sides are covered with backgrounds anyway.

I am planning a 2m long viv for the future and will also be making it out of wood as I live on the 4th floor and I can't imagine getting the glass up here in one piece.


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## barbar0 (Dec 3, 2007)

@sbreland
as you copied a picture from my thread, i thought i chime in... :wink: 
Nathalie answered your questions already but here my additions: Those vivs aren't too cheap, true. Mine was custom made, so even more expensive, but you can order standard dendrobates vivs from for example e.n.t . The 90gallon i have costs about 280$, but they are really good, and its big! 
http://www.terrarientechnik.de/index.php/cat/c80_Dendrobaten-Terrarien.html

You can get the exo terra ones in Germany or Switzerland but with a full mesh top i think they just aren't really suitable for PDFs, too much humidity and temperature is lost. In german dart forums they tell you never to use one of those for darts!

The mesh: it is just a fruitfly proof stainless steel mesh, so you dont have to make it ff proof after you buy it.

About that sloping bottom: I'm very new to darts, but I think it is very practical so far - though not a necessity. You dont have to build a false bottom or need a real drainage layer. I was amazed when i got to this forum a few weeks ago to see how much effort you put in building those false bottoms with eggcrate in the US - i've never seen anything like that before - and it looks very complicated to me...  

You can build those vivs yourself. I found a very neat german website with instructions for building one of those vivs (without the slopeing bottom, but with front opening). It even got a calculator, which calculates every piece of glass you need, you just have to type in the measurements of your wanted viv an the thickness of your glass. http://www.froschkeller.de/terraberech12.htm
It's in german unfortunately... but if your interested, i can give you an translation
It doesnt look too difficult, and my boy friend wants do give it a go soon


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

NathalieB said:


> the UV discussion ís something that lives here a little bit but as most people here supplement vitamins in powder(on feeders) and/or liquid (in spraying water) form, most people do not see the need for UV-lamps.


This is interesting too. It seems there is an effort to more carefully control feeding then many of us do over here. By this I mean I see recommendations for feeding stations and feeding only what the frogs will consume in a reasonable time. As we know, a challenge of a large vivarium is making sure the frogs receive feeder insects with supplement. So it makes some sense to try to control the food intake of the frogs. But the ecological approach builds fail safes into the system by using UVB radiation to supplement, or even replace, vitamin D3 supplementation, and the substrate provides a reservoir of calcium and other vitamins and minerals is made available to the frogs through the invertebrates produced within the substrates. Once that happens, it becomes possible to allow feeder insects to run at large in a vivarium and the frogs to forage naturally. So with the prevalence of larger vivaria in Europe (the "standard" vivarium size recommended by Hesselhaus in 1988 is still considered large by US standards), it is suprising to me that these concepts have not gained more momentum over there.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

barbar0 said:


> It's in german unfortunately... but if your interested, i can give you an translation


Thanks for that link... I'll check it out, and no worries on the translation... I know some German and should be able to read it pretty well, although when it comes to writing my sentence structure and tense need a bit of work!


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Another question about something I just noticed... are you having any problems using 4mm glass? Are they using it for the whole viv or just the sides. I just worry that 4mm glass would crack or flat out break under the weight of the viv is used for the bottom or possibly the back or any place that has to support any weight...


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## barbar0 (Dec 3, 2007)

For the smaller vivs 4mm glass is not a problem (say for 30G), but with my 90G, the glass is 6mm, the 4mm would be to weak. But with 6mm glass you can make quite big tanks.


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## hopalong (Sep 19, 2005)

Translation on that website would be great if possible please. :lol: Some of us took Spanish in high school and that was a LONG time ago.


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## Jens (Feb 16, 2007)

try google translate to get a basic idea:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... n&ie=UTF-8


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## barbar0 (Dec 3, 2007)

yeah, Nicole, use Jens' link and then click on "terrarienbau" on the left. There you get to that calculation form, and the translation you get from google isnt too bad. If there is something you dont understand, just ask again.


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## hopalong (Sep 19, 2005)

Thanks so much!


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