# Variabilis vs Reticulata in groups



## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

Hi, I'm wanting a Ranitomeya species for a group enclosure. I'm wanting 4 maybe 5 frogs in it. 

I personally prefer the Reticulata, but I do also like the Variabilis Southern as a close second. 
To help with my final choice, does anybody have any experience or just knowledge about how well both of these handle being in groups? I have heard success stories with the southern but I havnt been able to find too much for the Reticulata.
Any info will be a huge help! 

Jamie

Extra: how do they hold up against eachother in terms of boldness too?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Not to complicate your decision but Ranitomeya sirensis also do well in groups. They do wonderfully well in groups, in fact. 

When set up just right they are also quite bold. 

Here's a caresheet for them (it's a bit dated but still useful, there's an update coming to it sometime in the "not too distant future" I think)
Ranitomeya sirensis - Intermediate to advanced


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Not to complicate your decision but Ranitomeya sirensis also do well in groups. They do wonderfully well in groups, in fact.
> 
> When set up just right they are also quite bold.
> 
> ...


I did give these some thought I must admit! I just don't know how much I like the striped look compared to the more blocky colours on the two I'm debating.... although I probably can see either a sirensis or a summersi in the future..


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Here are some random shots of my sirensis group.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I keep retics, but only for four months now. They were fully adult when I got them. My four were in a holding viv (18 x 18 x 12) and two were breeding and two were quite scarce. Now they're split into two 1.1 pairs, and both pairs are breeding and out (well, as much as they come out -- they've been a weird combination of shy and bold both at the same time. Imagine a person who's a wallflower, but stares you down from their corner in a way that says 'I am so not afraid of you' and looks to actually mean it).

If you're looking to keep a group so you can see the frogs more, retics are probably not a great choice. They're very small, and are much less visible than even my shyer-than-fishingguy's sirensis (which is a great choice for a group thumb). And retics are said to be fragile -- I've had no problems, but mine came to me as adults. They sure look fragile. 

Ranitomeya.com says no to retics in groups. Wild studies suggest that retics don't appreciate the presence of same sex frogs, and keep to territories (~25 square meters) but are not observed to defend those territories. 

Note that sirensis will raise their own kids, whereas retics and variabilis won't.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> "Here are some random shots of my sirensis "
> 
> What morph are those ones? I've struggled to find pictures of them all tbh. They breeder I'm thinking of buying from has the 'Panguna', though I can't find any pictures online of them (I type it in on Google, go to images, and see atleast 5 frogs that look extremely different to eachother so God knows which one is the panguna lol)


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Note that sirensis will raise their own kids, whereas retics and variabilis won't.


I was not aware of this..... I've always wondered how they do it though, would that require me having to purposely add some water some where and keep it topped up, add the almond leaf etc and just not feed them? Or do they quite literally require zero intervention and magically duplicate themselves without my knowledge?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JD3T said:


> What morph are those ones? I've struggled to find pictures of them all tbh. They breeder I'm thinking of buying from has the 'Panguna', though I can't find any pictures online of them (I type it in on Google, go to images, and see atleast 5 frogs that look extremely different to eachother so God knows which one is the panguna lol)


They are the "Rio Pachitea yellow" locale/morph, understory Enterprises line


JD3T said:


> I was not aware of this..... I've always wondered how they do it though, would that require me having to purposely add some water some where and keep it topped up, add the almond leaf etc and just not feed them? Or do they quite literally require zero intervention and magically duplicate themselves without my knowledge?


I put a couple of deli cups (1oz) filled about 1/3 - 1/2 with water, and the males will deposit the tadpoles into the cups and lead the female over to deposit an unfertilized egg to feed the tadpole. I don't do anything with the tadpoles if I'm letting the parents raise them. Occasionally I'll add a bit of water to the cup but that's all. No almond leaf is needed.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> They are the "Rio Pachitea yellow" locale/morph, understory Enterprises line


Probably a long shot but do you know what the Panguna morph looks like so I can try identify it in a picture? Lol

Interesting, I think with this news the reticulata has dropped the third place behind the Variabilis and Sirensis


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

To throw another spanner into the works..... how do ,uakarii stack up against the V and S (forget R for now)


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JD3T said:


> Probably a long shot but do you know what the Panguna morph looks like so I can try identify it in a picture? Lol


Here's what the panguana locale typically looks like:
Ranitomeya sirensis | Poison Dart Frogs | Dendrobates.org (scroll down to the section on panguana) 

Ranitomeya sirensis — Ranitomeya 

The pictures of panguana on this site also match up with the site above in my post.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JD3T said:


> To throw another spanner into the works..... how do ,uakarii stack up against the V and S (forget R for now)


_Uakarii_ do not do well in groups. Mine are quite bold (routinely sit at the front of the tank waiting for food), and are great first Ranitomeya (they were my first Ranitomeya) if you're getting them at a good, well developed age (most reputable vendors won't sell young Ranitomeya, when I sell any of mine they are at least 6 months old so they aren't as fragile)


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Here's what the panguana locale typically looks like:
> Ranitomeya sirensis | Poison Dart Frogs | Dendrobates.org (scroll down to the section on panguana)
> 
> Ranitomeya sirensis — Ranitomeya
> ...


Great thank you for those links! I would love to try and find the Green ones in the UK, they look so cool - somewhat similar (ish) to the Variabilis Southerns but with the benefit of raising thier own tads!


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> _Uakarii_ do not do well in groups. Mine are quite bold (routinely sit at the front of the tank waiting for food), and are great first Ranitomeya (they were my first Ranitomeya) if you're getting them at a good, well developed age (most reputable vendors won't sell young Ranitomeya, when I sell any of mine they are at least 6 months old so they aren't as fragile)


That's unfortunate, one of the breeders I know had a pair of uakarii and a pair of auratus sharing a tank (although it was a damn big tank at that) and they seemed to get on amazingly.... so I assumed they might also get on with multiple of thier own species too, clearly not how it works lol


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

It might be worth mentioning that I would be buying these as tadpoles.... so how would that work with the sirensis? Can I still raise them myself as normal? - I know the retics are quite delicate as tads and frogletts, but I read the Southerns aren't too hard really which was a factor for me


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JD3T said:


> It might be worth mentioning that I would be buying these as tadpoles.... so how would that work with the sirensis? Can I still raise them myself as normal? - I know the retics are quite delicate as tads and frogletts, but I read the Southerns aren't too hard really which was a factor for me


I would never buy frogs as tadpoles.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I would never buy frogs as tadpoles.


How come? 

The only reason I was planning to is because its about a quarter of the cost.. and the sellers policy is that if any die during the moving/delivery process they will replace them without charge.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

JD3T said:


> How come?
> 
> The only reason I was planning to is because its about a quarter of the cost.. and the sellers policy is that if any die during the moving/delivery process they will replace them without charge.


So many things can go wrong with tadpoles, especially if you're new to frog keeping. Small froglets are more challenging than getting well started frogs, especially for Ranitomeya, in my experience.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> So many things can go wrong with tadpoles, especially if you're new to frog keeping. Small froglets are more challenging than getting well started frogs, especially for Ranitomeya, in my experience.


Right I see.. I cant afford to buy a group as froglets, in the UK the prices are quite high, and reptile couriers are extortionate..... so if tadpoles really were my only option, I'm guessing Variabilis would be an easier choice than Sirensis?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JD3T said:


> It might be worth mentioning that I would be buying these as tadpoles.... so how would that work with the sirensis? Can I still raise them myself as normal? - I know the retics are quite delicate as tads and frogletts, but I read the Southerns aren't too hard really which was a factor for me


I can't imagine that anyone would sell retics as tads. I sure hope not.

The egg feeding thumbnails can be raised artificially without issue (so I've read -- I've not done it, since the parents do a better job than I would do, and it keeps them out of trouble being stuck home with the kids ).

Curious about the UK market: how much do froglets cost (for whatever species)? What is the story with the courier -- contract runner carrying animals point A to point B directly? How much does that cost? Can you ship frogs or tadpoles FedEx overnight?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JD3T said:


> I was not aware of this..... I've always wondered how they do it though, would that require me having to purposely add some water some where and keep it topped up, add the almond leaf etc and just not feed them? Or do they quite literally require zero intervention and magically duplicate themselves without my knowledge?


They (the males) deposit tads in bromeliad axils so long as there is some water in there (from the misters, or your hand misting). They'll also use film canisters with water in them. No almond leaf needed or recommended, so yes zero intervention on your part aside from making sure the water is replenished as needed, and perhaps gently flushed out occasionally. The females feed the tads unfertilized eggs as needed. 

It is a very amazing thing and is one of my favorite aspects of dart frog keeping.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Some other group options with Ranitomeya would be vanzolinii and flavovittata.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Chris S said:


> Some other group options with Ranitomeya would be vanzolinii and flavovittata.


and Amazonica!


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Curious about the UK market: how much do froglets cost (for whatever species)? What is the story with the courier -- contract runner carrying animals point A to point B directly? How much does that cost? Can you ship frogs or tadpoles FedEx overnight?


So for example, 4 Southern tads would cost me £80, plus £15 postage for next day delivery, so £95. 
The best value I have found frogelts for from a decently known breeder, is about £50 per frog, and A to B courier had quoted me £65.... so its £95 vs £265... no matter what currency you convert this into, the difference is pretty substantial! 

Is issue with normal couriers like fedex, or Hermes etc, is just based on the normal items I get delivered from them, I know they don't treat ANY boxes carefully... I'd hate to let them handle anything living. Where as the courier is a specialist in animals, and had heated vans etc to suit the needs of whatever they are moving, and of course they collect and deliver them the same day.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> They (the males) deposit tads in bromeliad axils so long as there is some water in there (from the misters, or your hand misting). They'll also use film canisters with water in them. No almond leaf needed or recommended, so yes zero intervention on your part aside from making sure the water is replenished as needed, and perhaps gently flushed out occasionally. The females feed the tads unfertilized eggs as needed.
> 
> It is a very amazing thing and is one of my favorite aspects of dart frog keeping.


How do you find the survival rates with the Sirensis from tad to froglett? (Assuming that is the species you refer to) 
Or any Tad to froglett for that matter... considering the amount of money I'd he saving this way, if I have to buy maybe 2 extra tads to offset losses, my wallet would still be thanking me!


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I would never buy frogs as tadpoles.





JD3T said:


> How come?


I have bought tadpoles several times. I'm experienced in froglets though. I would say if you're going to do it, buy at least one more tadpole than you want. Two is better. I've got some benedicta that I morphed out around christmas that I bought. One jumped out of his film can with a full tail and I'm sure I've lost him. So I'm down to 3 and wishing I had bought 6 instead of 4. If you're going to do it, you need to have a proper grow out. Retics are ridiculously tiny and will escape anything, so be extra diligent. Those froglets are going to need lots of springtails too, so make sure you have several cultures going. Variabilis will be able to take flies right away but retics need springtails for at least their first week. 

I would highly recommend saving your money and buying froglets for your first frogs. Talk to local breeders. Often you can get deals when buying four or more frogs. The chance of failure with tadpoles and new keepers is pretty high.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

JasonE said:


> I would highly recommend saving your money and buying froglets for your first frogs. Talk to local breeders. Often you can get deals when buying four or more frogs. The chance of failure with tadpoles and new keepers is pretty high.


Thats some good info, thanks for chiming in with that!

These wouldn't be my first time frogs, I've kept a group of 4 auratus froglets from 3 months out of water, they're now 8 months old and seem to be loving life! I doubt that qualifies as me experienced enough to dive into tadpoles.... but I'm so curious to witness the whole process still!


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

JD3T said:


> Thats some good info, thanks for chiming in with that!
> 
> These wouldn't be my first time frogs, I've kept a group of 4 auratus froglets from 3 months out of water, they're now 8 months old and seem to be loving life! I doubt that qualifies as me experienced enough to dive into tadpoles.... but I'm so curious to witness the whole process still!


A 3 month old auratus froglet is no where close to dealing with a 3 day old ranitomeya. I don't want to say they're fragile, but for a less experienced keeper, they are.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

JasonE said:


> A 3 month old auratus froglet is no where close to dealing with a 3 day old ranitomeya. I don't want to say they're fragile, but for a less experienced keeper, they are.


Yeah I didnt think that my experience would be anything of what a Ranitomeya tadpole would be. The tadpoles are around 7 weeks old at thier delivery point, so I'm guessing if they make it this far thier chances of reaching froglet mode are higher, I think I'll give it a go, I need to get the experience somehow, I'll just order an extra couple. If the best case happens, then I have extra frogs


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JD3T said:


> So for example, 4 Southern tads would cost me £80, plus £15 postage for next day delivery, so £95.
> The best value I have found frogelts for from a decently known breeder, is about £50 per frog, and A to B courier had quoted me £65.... so its £95 vs £265... no matter what currency you convert this into, the difference is pretty substantial!
> 
> Is issue with normal couriers like fedex, or Hermes etc, is just based on the normal items I get delivered from them, I know they don't treat ANY boxes carefully... I'd hate to let them handle anything living. Where as the courier is a specialist in animals, and had heated vans etc to suit the needs of whatever they are moving, and of course they collect and deliver them the same day.


So 1 GBP is 1.35 USD. Froglets would be $67.50, courier is $88. -- not substantially higher than here -- frogs are about $50, and FedEx + box charge is $75 easy.. We ship live animals all the time using FedEx, and other than current COVID delays, it works well, but I suppose if I could get a dedicated courier for the same price I'd take it. We're shipping 3-4,000 miles, though. 

Your point about cost vs tadpoles is true, of course, and how the money works out better for you. Tads ship worse than established froglets, though, so the loss of animals might be weighed into the calculations -- not the money, but the lives. Not trying to make some high-minded point with that, just pointing out the tradeoffs.



JD3T said:


> How do you find the survival rates with the Sirensis from tad to froglett? (Assuming that is the species you refer to)
> Or any Tad to froglett for that matter... considering the amount of money I'd he saving this way, if I have to buy maybe 2 extra tads to offset losses, my wallet would still be thanking me!


My sirensis raise their own tads, so I don't see them until they morph and so don't know attrition rates. I assume it is low when they do the work (they've had like 4 million years of practice).

The only lazy frogs I've bred so far are leucs, and they morph about 95%. The first two frogs I ever bought were leuc tads, and they both died. Small sample size, but I don't really like animals dying on my watch. That's just me, though, and other people will make different decisions for reasons that make a lot of sense.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Small sample size, but I don't really like animals dying on my watch. That's just me, though, and other people will make different decisions for reasons that make a lot of sense.


I hope I havnt came across as if I'm willing to let a few deaths occur to save some money... I'm pretty terrified of any dieing on me, I'd be so upset about it.. but I want to try still, it'd feel like such an accomplishment to successfully raise them myself for the first time! 

The way I'm seeing it is my Auratus will eventually lay eggs, so one day I will have to raise tadpoles, and even if that's in a years time, I'll still be just as inexperienced with tads as I am now if I don't go ahead and try it. I've watched every YouTube tutorial there is, been through all of the threads on here where people have had tadpole deaths (to see the answers as to why they died, to avoid thier mistakes)

Just wanted to make that clear incase I was starting to look like thier lives were disposable to save some cash!



Socratic Monologue said:


> The only lazy frogs I've bred so far are leucs, and they morph about 95%.


I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, but are you saying you left them to raise thier own tads and were "lazy" parents? Or did you mean thier the only frogs you've bread that don't raise thier own?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JD3T said:


> I hope I havnt came across as if I'm willing to let a few deaths occur to save some money...


You sure have come across as someone who is putting a lot of thought into doing the best thing here, and is appealing to good reasons in doing so. It doesn't get much better than this. 

A lot of this (* waves hands around at everything *) involves pros and cons, risks that aren't fully calculable, tradeoffs that aren't commensurable (that is, money and lives may be tradable -- in fact, humanity does it every single day with other humans -- but there's no set exchange rate, and there couldn't be one because of the subjective elements of value judgements). 

It would be silly to spend much more money than it is worth to get froglets when you also want the experience of raising tads, as you point out. And the amount isn't negligible, as your math shows. And tads die whether in your care or the breeder's care or in momma frog's care -- that's true. On the other side, tads die more in shipping and the aftermath of shipping than if they don't ship, and it may be better to hone one's tad raising skills on a batch of tads that hatched out under your watch (if only that it eliminates the distracting variable of the unknown condition of the tads before they are shipped to you. The leuc tads that I killed were likely compromised before I got them. Or were they? I'll never know, and so I'll never know what I did wrong and that uncertainty undermines my pursuit of knowledge).

Just my two pence, but I think as long as you stay away from the "disposable" viewpoint that you've made a reasonable decision. 



JD3T said:


> I might be misunderstanding what you mean here, but are you saying you left them to raise thier own tads and were "lazy" parents? Or did you mean thier the only frogs you've bread that don't raise thier own?


Ha, ha, sorry -- the latter is what I meant. Frogs that drop off tads to fend for themselves I sometimes call 'lazy' in the reproductive context. 

Frogs that check their tads regularly, working together as a sometimes long term monogamous parental team (they make a map of where they left the kids, Dad makes the rounds and calls Mom over to feed them -- "Honey, your kid is hungry again! I'll be in the backyard!' -- and defend a territory isn't just for hooking up but for raising good and strong kids) remind me that evolution has everything under control even when it doesn't look like it.


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> You sure have come across as someone who is putting a lot of thought into doing the best thing here, and is appealing to good reasons in doing so. It doesn't get much better


Good I'm glad! I spend a lot of time weighing up the risks to every options, it's rather time consuming and a little annoying tbh lol but it always seems to lead to the right choice.... I've been an accountant for too long I think!



Socratic Monologue said:


> "Honey, your kid is hungry again! I'll be in the backyard!'


Haha that's a funny thought, I'd quite like to witness it actually!


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## ttylko (Feb 7, 2021)

@JD3T whereabouts in the UK are you based?


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

ttylko said:


> @JD3T whereabouts in the UK are you based?


I'm currently living in Wrangle, in-between Boston and Skegness... there are literally no sellers around here, I had to do an 8 hour round drive to Kidderminster and back to collect my Auratus, was wild


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## JD3T (Dec 17, 2021)

Update:

I'd like to give a big thank you to everyone who took thier time to reply to this post and helped me with my decision!

ttylko sent me a link to the group and I managed to find a breeder willing to meet me an hour from my house!

I stayed clear from the Reticulata as you all pointed out, and I ended up buying 3 Borja Ridge (they looked similar to the sirensis and I quite liked them), all as 5 month old frogletts so no messing around with tadpoles!
And for an unbelieve deal of only £90 for all 3 frogs... I almost spent more than that buying tadpoles, so thank god for dendroboard and all of you!!


TLDR:
Thanks for all of your help, youre all legends!


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## Gemma (Jan 25, 2020)

Chris S said:


> Some other group options with Ranitomeya would be vanzolinii and flavovittata.


I wish there were Flavs in the uk!!


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## LCBeckett (Dec 20, 2018)

JD3T said:


> I'm currently living in Wrangle, in-between Boston and Skegness... there are literally no sellers around here, I had to do an 8 hour round drive to Kidderminster and back to collect my Auratus, was wild


My frogs occasionally travel to my parents in Friskney. Didn't see this thread until now, but if/when you have a second tank, there's Ranitomeya not far from you that might have froglets that time right. Good to have another Lincs Frogger. #UpThePilgrims


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