# Question: If eggs are in soft peat water and you flush with distilled water...



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

..would the resulting PH change traumatize the eggs?

I have pulled two clutches laid in a new location which had the brown peat water soaked into the jelly, making them very dark. I put them in with some distilled water and left half of the original peat water in there until it was a golden color, and each clutch seems to have a white spot develop inside the yolk membrane. It is unclear whether a part of the yolk actually separated if this was the result of a reaction to the water change, but I do not believe it was a fungal or bacterial attack since it manifested nearly immediately after I pulled the eggs, on two occasions.
I think next time I will just let them alone and mist them where they are laid if they are laid in that seed pod again.
Ideas? Thoughts?


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Are you sure the pH is actually terribly different? Distilled (and DI) water can have a fairly low pH. I'd do a pH test on both your peat water and your distilled and see how different they are first.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

If you are using Distilled water for some anti-fungal reason.....I don't see it. I would use Meth Blue or Indian Almond tea.

I have lost eggs that I used distilled or RO water with....

Only aged tap water and Indian Almond for me.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I am using distilled with blackwater added. This way, I avoid any possible contamination by things in the tap water since ours is not filtered by ozonation here.
Thanks for the advice!

I haven't tested the pH, but it might be as low as 5 with the peat---guess I'll pick up some test strips and see...
but the question remains---assuming that a drastic pH change did occur, would this cause damage to the eggs?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Anyone have an inkling as to what might cause part of the yolk to separate from the main portion after just squirting them with water? I wasn't squirting them directly, but there is a tiny dot of yolk/white area that seems detached from the main part of the yolk---the part that develops into the tad's body, I presume.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i could be wrong but in nature i believe it is tannic acid that creates blackwater. this would make the water similar to peat and RO in the fact that both should be acidic. 

some testing paper is cheap and may be appropriate if you are concerned.

james


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

james67 said:


> i could be wrong but in nature i believe it is tannic acid that creates blackwater. this would make the water similar to peat and RO in the fact that both should be acidic.
> 
> some testing paper is cheap and may be appropriate if you are concerned.
> 
> james


Sorry---I need to clarify that when I flushed the eggs with water, it was the pure distilled water without the blackwater added. This is why I guessed that it might be the pH factor here. I'll get back to this post when I get some test strips (hard to get all your errands done with three boys running around...)


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I think I figured out what is going on from doing some more reading on how frogs are affected by distilled water myself---flushing eggs with distilled water (which is 'too pure') can cause an osmotic change inside the egg, which explains why the white dot appeared within the yolk membrane nearly instantaneously after I flushed it with RO water---the yolk had actually been forced apart...
Since then, I have removed the pods the frogs were laying eggs on and that forced them to lay on the broms. I plan to silicone the outside and replace the pods to see if that will hold in moisture so I don't need to mist or bother the eggs at all...
Now I am planning on using distilled w/spring water added---fill me in on a ratio for that or let me know if I'm missing something here, but that's my best guess as to what was happening...


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## carbonetc (Oct 13, 2008)

Rain is effectively distilled water, and I'm sure eggs get rained on in the wild. I'm curious why it would make a difference in a viv?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I think rainwater picks up solids and potential chemicals when it passes through the atmosphere.

It most certainly collects solids and elements when it touches leaves and seeps into dart frog egg bowers and tadpole deposition sites, so it is far from "pure" when it reaches these areas.

Rain Water Composition Study

The problem with RO and captive husbandry is that the water IS more or less pure and when applied directly to an egg....it will leech substances from the egg as it seeks to regain it's balance.


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

Philsuma hit the dot. Rainwater is also acidic. BTW, how are the eggs now?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

They are good now that I am using the new mix. Thanks for asking!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> I think rainwater picks up solids and potential chemicals when it passes through the atmosphere.
> 
> It most certainly collects solids and elements when it touches leaves and seeps into dart frog egg bowers and tadpole deposition sites, so it is far from "pure" when it reaches these areas.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Phil----helpful as always!


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## dflorian (May 15, 2009)

earthfrog said:


> I think I figured out what is going on from doing some more reading on how frogs are affected by distilled water myself---flushing eggs with distilled water (which is 'too pure') can cause an osmotic change inside the egg, which explains why the white dot appeared within the yolk membrane nearly instantaneously after I flushed it with RO water---the yolk had actually been forced apart...
> ...........
> Now I am planning on using distilled w/spring water added---fill me in on a ratio for that or let me know if I'm missing something here, but that's my best guess as to what was happening...


I do an experiment for my general biology classes that demonstrates the same principle. Before a lab were we study diffusion, I take two chicken eggs and soak them in acetic acid (aka vinegar) for a couple days to dissolve the calcium salts leaving a pliable protein membrane. In lab we weight each egg to begin class then place one in distilled water and the other in a saturated salt solution. At the end of class, we weight the eggs again. The egg in DI water swells as it has taken on water and the other loses water weight as water has diffused into the salt solution. 

Through the egg jelly of a developing tadpole, in DI water, I suspect the tadpole might be losing important ions (i.e. sodium, potassium, calcium) as they would possibly diffuse/leach out of the tad and into the distilled water.

I believe the key would be to try and use a water that closely approximates what minimizes water loss or gain while also inhibiting fungal and bacterial growth. It's an interesting question, for which I do not have an answer...

If using processed tap water doesn't work for me, I'd probably go to a source for spring water and not use distilled water as all. But I'm new to this game...and still working out the kinks using tap water that I process before use.

Exactly $0.02...nothing more, nothing less


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Here's the large thread on this RO water issue.....turns out it was a sticky too...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/24397-misting-ro-vs-tap-water.html


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