# Purple Atelopus



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I see the purple Atelopus have hit the states again and wow what a price drop, from $600 to $300 last year, now $85 from at least 2 resellers I have seen. Well at least buying a nearly unbreedable species of frog, that would likely be offered in about 100% male only groups is now reasonably priced.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Too bad it's not because they are breeding well in captivity.


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

Let's hope someone can get them going in captivity, I may pick up a few of the purples


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

All males and need to go to a zoo-like expense/extent to get the offspring to live. Oh, well.

-Nish


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

It's just sad for a species about to go extinct in the wild. I really hope zoos/private individuals figure out how to breed them. I'm doing whatever I can to encourage that, here is hoping someone has success! 

It would also be great if people found a way to protect some of the breeding sites from the gold mines silting up the streams and poisoning the water with mercury. Of dozens of populations previously known, only a couple are left.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Price drops again on the purple! I currently see them on kingsnake.com for around 75.00!


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

Just out of curiousity, why is this species so difficult to breed in captivity?


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## ForbiddenFrogs (Feb 5, 2013)

im looking for a yellow female and a purple female to go with the males im getting any one have any or a direction to put me in to get them


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

They are not so difficult to breed more that the tads are very difficult to rear, they require very clean and highly oxygenated water and are very sensitive to light. As well as they feed on diatomic algae which can be difficult to produce not in the wild. So far I don't believe anyone has ever raised a captive bred one into adulthood.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Atelopus zeteki is bred by many zoos-to the point where they dispose of eggs/tadpoles to keep bloodlines from becoming over-represented. The same success has not been had by private hobbyists but it is likely due to only a few people actually getting females and having them survive. One member here bred them a couple times but the tadpoles did not make it-due to difficulties frogpool mentioned. 

Have any purple females come in? I suspect not-which explains the price.


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

I know of a few that came in but all went to either institutions or private breeding already


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Frog pool13 said:


> They are not so difficult to breed more that the tads are very difficult to rear, they require very clean and highly oxygenated water and are very sensitive to light. As well as they feed on diatomic algae which can be difficult to produce not in the wild. So far I don't believe anyone has ever raised a captive bred one into adulthood.


Diatoms are pretty easy to culture. In fact, it's a nuisance in aquariums. Can't they just culture it?


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## punctata (Jan 31, 2011)

Hayden said:


> Just out of curiousity, why is this species so difficult to breed in captivity?


getting females is a pain. Plus getting the tads to become froglets is hard. I think they need a specific diet or something that is unique


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

I just picked up a female yeah not sure the specefiv diet but I know that most never get past tads.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Frog pool13 said:


> They are not so difficult to breed more that the tads are very difficult to rear, they require very clean and highly oxygenated water and are very sensitive to light. As well as they feed on diatomic algae which can be difficult to produce not in the wild. So far I don't believe anyone has ever raised a captive bred one into adulthood.


I am thinking about using a probe therm.chiller, positioning several small powerheads in one direction,with a waterfall to help me recreate the cool fast flowing streams where atelopus naturally found. Inside my breeding chamber.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> Atelopus zeteki is bred by many zoos-to the point where they dispose of eggs/tadpoles to keep bloodlines from becoming over-represented. The same success has not been had by private hobbyists but it is likely due to only a few people actually getting females and having them survive. One member here bred them a couple times but the tadpoles did not make it-due to difficulties frogpool mentioned.
> 
> Have any purple females come in? I suspect not-which explains the price.


I talked to Bob of Repxotica.com. He informed me that he have over 50 purples currently in stock (74.99). He can't guarantee the sex. The frogs he do have in stock, looks to be all the same size.He talked directly to the collector of these frogs. The ratio can be high as 60 males to every 1 female because males are easier to collect at the breeding sites. The gathering of all the males, and the calling makes this possible. Females don't hang around at the breeding site. Females are usually found in the trees. Bob told my that collector promised to get/ have more females next go round. As you know by now. The females will command top dollar. As much as 400.00, So start saving!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> Diatoms are pretty easy to culture. In fact, it's a nuisance in aquariums. Can't they just culture it?


Yes the diatoms can be. The two species of Atelopus bred in zoos do not require diatoms. The tadpoles do well on a paste of fish flakes pasted to structures like stones or pieces of pvc. There is a variation in those two species on accepting the fish flakes but given clutch sizes, even a moderate mortality can still leave several hundred metamorphs. The fish flakes can be supplemented with diatoms grown on structures like stones or pieces of PVC and rotated into and out of the tanks. Varius and zeteki can have high tadpole mortality if the food is not provided on structures like stones or pvc. 

The survivial rate of the clutches has more to do with water quality than having to have a ton of water movement. 

Even the few breedings of A. flavescens had issues due to water quality... 

They require ammonia to be as close to 0 ppm as possible, nitrite to be 0 ppm and nitrate to be as close to 0 pmm as possible. This is not uncommon in a number of fast stream dwelling tadpoles. If the tadpoles are gathering in the corners of the tank, there may be water quality problems. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frog pool13 said:


> I just picked up a female yeah not sure the specefiv diet but I know that most never get past tads.



I'm willing to bet that the odds are against it being a female. A lot of vendors ship "females" that are really just large males or subadult males. People often forget that males will sometime amplex males and with Atelopus, it can take awhile before they figure it out... 

some comments 

Ed


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## punctata (Jan 31, 2011)

I wish there was a way to put pressure on the people that collect them in the wild to do a better job getting both sexes. Grabbing just males because they are easier is BS. It is not helping the hobby or the animal being established in captivity. Like the collectors even care tho. As long as the money comes in there won't be change. Sadly male heavy shipments are all too comon. With a rare species as this, it is critical.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Morphology of the hands is slightly different with at least one Atelopus species I've seen. Otherwise, yeah, I know someone who got a big 'female' only to find out that it called the next year. I would check into hand morphology and see if you can notice a difference if you are able to 'pick your choice' of toads.

Honestly, without a very large amount of money and space it sounds like creating the right conditions for the tadpoles to survive is near impossible. I'm sure a zoo can produce zeteki but then again with it almost extinct, they can receive and pour more money than the average person into it and create a huge area to produce a very specific water type just for those tadpoles. It does require diatoms and a very clear stream. It obviously isn't as easy as culturing diatoms like people do for fish and putting a filter on some running water. Not sure what else is necessary but there may be articles published for zeteki. The other Atelopus might have different requirements.

-Nish


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Some of this might be a good place to start your research.
Project Golden Frog

Atelopus zeteki Husbandry Manual


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

Ed said:


> I'm willing to bet that the odds are against it being a female. A lot of vendors ship "females" that are really just large males or subadult males. People often forget that males will sometime amplex males and with Atelopus, it can take awhile before they figure it out...
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Female is guaranteed, if it turns out not to be one send it back for another or refund, so why not try it


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## Colin C (Jun 27, 2011)

I have experience breeding several species of Panamanian Atelopus at two different institutions and should be receiving a group of A. h. nassaui including three confirmed females at the end of the week. Like Ed said a combination of powdered fish food 'paste' (usually Sera Micron) and diatoms cultured on rocks and PVC has proven well for zeteki and varius and has also seen limited success with other species like limosus and certus. I agree that water quality is incredibly important but I have also seen zeteki morph out of tanks with quite a bit of detritus build up, but with much higher mortality/weaker metamorphs. Ideally a sump with a strong powerhead used in conjunction with a canister filter and frequent water changes/testing should be used. Until I can set up these toads in their permanent breeding facility I am less concerned with rearing tadpoles than getting the eggs out of the females in order to stabilize them after import, but regardless I am setting up several diatom culturing tubs and have a powerful canister filter ready to go. I am considering this a 'trial run' to learn from and prepare for next years much more serious breeding attempt. This will also give my aquatics expert time to practice getting our water parameters correct.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

I am really loving this thread! I am hoping this will lead better husbandry of atelopus in the hobby. In turn, lead to some c.b. froglets in captivity. Just because something rare in the wild,don't mean it have to stand true for captivity..


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

I agree! Especially with all the fresh imports coming in I hope this thread can facilitate some success! Also I think someone should make a thread on their care as there is a real lack of info on the species.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

All of this discussion has happened in the past. The information is all here on the forum. 

Ed


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Speaking of water parameters. It would be helpful to the ph, and the annual average temperature of the streams where these (frogs), excuse me, toads naturally breed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Colin C said:


> I have also seen zeteki morph out of tanks with quite a bit of detritus build up,


The correlation with detritus has to be kept in perspective. For example, in soft acid waters with plant matter this is often from plant matter breaking down resulting in humic acids and little if any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. In systems other than this one, it can be correlated with high levels of nitrate ("old tank syndrome") which would cause issues with the toads. 

Ed


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

I believe all of that is discussed in the second link, at least for zeteki


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

There are lots of media on the market that absorb ammonia and nitrates; can't you use one of them to eliminate those from the water?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Sounds like a situation where the planted aquarium hobby could be very helpful.

It's not hard to get an aquarium to Zero PPM ammonia, nitrite, Nitrates. Diatom growth should be easy to encourage. All seem like solvable problems, just someone needs time and some females and the ability to apply the science.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

hypostatic said:


> There are lots of media on the market that absorb ammonia and nitrates; can't you use one of them to eliminate those from the water?


Yes true.

But IMO, their are better cheeper options, bio reactors, algal turf scrubbers, even a refugium full of densely planted stem plants.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Frog pool13 said:


> Female is guaranteed, if it turns out not to be one send it back for another or refund, so why not try it


Because these guarantees are often worthless. In the case of antelopus, the seller more than likely doesn't have another "female." Some less than honorable person would gladly take your money with this kind of guarantee and jerk you around for months. This type of scenario comes up too often. You can search the vendor feedback section and find examples. Tread with care when people are offering such "guarantees."


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

nish07 said:


> Morphology of the hands is slightly different with at least one Atelopus species I've seen. Otherwise, yeah, I know someone who got a big 'female' only to find out that it called the next year. I would check into hand morphology and see if you can notice a difference if you are able to 'pick your choice' of toads.
> 
> Honestly, without a very large amount of money and space it sounds like creating the right conditions for the tadpoles to survive is near impossible. I'm sure a zoo can produce zeteki but then again with it almost extinct, they can receive and pour more money than the average person into it and create a huge area to produce a very specific water type just for those tadpoles. It does require diatoms and a very clear stream. It obviously isn't as easy as culturing diatoms like people do for fish and putting a filter on some running water. Not sure what else is necessary but there may be articles published for zeteki. The other Atelopus might have different requirements.
> 
> -Nish


I remember keeping sps in reef tanks was considered impossible. Rearing Oophaga pumilio tads in captivity was considered impossible. Time shows, if given enough tenacity, self discipline, and applying learned knowledge, the impossible can be possible. I believe that we're still in the infant stage in the husbandry of atelopus in captivity. Atelopus been breeding in nature for eons. We should be looking more toward this for our model...


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

charlesbrooks said:


> The ratio can be high as 60 males to every 1 female because males are easier to collect at the breeding sites. The gathering of all the males, and the calling makes this possible. Females don't hang around at the breeding site.


I have to wonder how much damage is being done to the population by removing the easy to collect males. Was there a census done before setting quotas?


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

charlesbrooks said:


> I remember keeping sps in reef tanks was considered impossible. Rearing Oophaga pumilio tads in captivity was considered impossible. Time shows, if given enough tenacity, self discipline, and applying learned knowledge, the impossible can be possible. I believe that we're still in the infant stage in the husbandry of atelopus in captivity. Atelopus been breeding in nature for eons. We should be looking more toward this for our model...


Seems like its morally wrong to pull a bunch of frogs from a highly imperiled genus out of the wild for a bunch of hobbyists to have a fun "experiment."

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a guy who has been to a bunch of former Atelopus localities where they are now extirpated.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

easternversant said:


> But hey, what do I know? I'm just a guy who has been to a bunch of former Atelopus localities where they are now extirpated.


Do you know if this is due to collecting or as the result Chytrid?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

The big question is will these silted streams recover after the miners have gone or are they poisoned forever or damaged (course altered, covered over etc) to the point of no longer being viable for the breeding of these animals? Missing a breeding season or 2 or 3 may be damaging but the toads could recover with time. Also pulling out almost 100% males would reduce the genetic diversity of the population but pulling out females could be catastrophic, a few in the proper hands would be a good thing but an active hunt for a lot of them let's hope never happens.


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> Yes the diatoms can be. The two species of Atelopus bred in zoos do not require diatoms. The tadpoles do well on a paste of fish flakes pasted to structures like stones or pieces of pvc. There is a variation in those two species on accepting the fish flakes but given clutch sizes, even a moderate mortality can still leave several hundred metamorphs. The fish flakes can be supplemented with diatoms grown on structures like stones or pieces of PVC and rotated into and out of the tanks. Varius and zeteki can have high tadpole mortality if the food is not provided on structures like stones or pvc.
> 
> The survivial rate of the clutches has more to do with water quality than having to have a ton of water movement.
> 
> ...


Hi Ed, In your opinion would any of these diatom species be helpful/useful in culturing Guyana shield Atelopus species larvae? UTEX The Culture Collection of Algae Thanks! JVK


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Do you know if this is due to collecting or as the result Chytrid?


Some of the sites are likely a result of one, some of both. Sites where some Atelopus were once prevalent are now empty....with absolutely no evidence as to why this occurred. Does that change anything? Absolutely not. Taking these frogs out of the wild in this situation is morally repugnant to me.  My opinion, clearly which is not one that is generally shared.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

easternversant said:


> Some of the sites are likely a result of one, some of both. Sites where some Atelopus were once prevalent are now empty....with absolutely no evidence as to why this occurred. Does that change anything? Absolutely not. Taking these frogs out of the wild in this situation is morally repugnant to me. My opinion, clearly which is not one that is generally shared.


You say "likely". So you're speculating but you don't know of the extirpation was caused by collecting or something else?

Of course it doesn't change anything, but it is unfair to blame collecting if you can't show it is the cause, so I would caution against suggesting that collecting is the reason that these toads are no longer present where you once saw them. The rampant spread of chytrid(probably spread by collectors in the first place) seems like a more plausible cause to me.

And I agree with you in general principal that removing these frogs right now, with certain exceptions(specific conservation efforts) is irresponsible. I'd be willing to bet more people than not probably agree.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I absolutely agree taking animals out of the wild that have little or no chance of reproducing is wrong, especially if they are imperiled. I was happy to see the price drop for those collected, keeping them at crazy high prices in so many instances keeps the demand high for them, though I doubt the collectors in south America were ever paid such a disproportionate price for them when they were offered last year. But if the mine were to spell the end of these in the wild, collecting may be their only hope of survival. And unfortunately a country that would allow mines to destroy breeding grounds for fragile and rare animals to the point of extinction I am sure could care less how many of them are collected and exported. Too bad Surinam does not follow suit of some of the countries that have made it a priority to keep their native animals from going extinct, creating breeding programs that would attempt to mimic their natural habitat. Still wondering if after some of these mines are played out will the habitat revert to healthy conditions, sure hope so.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> The big question is will these silted streams recover after the miners have gone or are they poisoned forever or damaged (course altered, covered over etc) to the point of no longer being viable for the breeding of these animals? Missing a breeding season or 2 or 3 may be damaging but the toads could recover with time. Also pulling out almost 100% males would reduce the genetic diversity of the population but pulling out females could be catastrophic, a few in the proper hands would be a good thing but an active hunt for a lot of them let's hope never happens.


In general, if the water flow isn't impeded then the streams should return to normal. Examples of this can be seen in the many streams and rivers in the US that have had dams removed and those areas are typically heavily silted.... The streams will flush out the excess soil when the wet seasons occur. 

As another example here in the US, many states like West Virginia were virtually deforested between 1880 and 1920 and large tracts had lost significant amounts of their topsoil. Even though this occured at that time, many of the water ways and areas have recovered... not all of the soil but the streams have recovered in the areas where forests were allowed to recover. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Ed said:


> In general, if the water flow isn't impeded then the streams should return to normal. Examples of this can be seen in the many streams and rivers in the US that have hm removed and those areas are typic silted.... The streams will flush out the excess soil when the wet seasons occur.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay Ed, you are talking long-term (maybe). This give me little relief when we are talking about a sp. that already imperiled. What about the poison they use to mine the gold, such as mercury, to name one. This have to detrimental to the a whole.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Sadly, the mines are expanding. I talked to at least one person who did an environmental impact study for the gov on the mountains before gold mines were allowed to become established (not the illegal mines). The outlook did not look good and at most previously known locations no frogs have been seen in several years. It's devastating. 

There are still a few locations where the species occurs in good numbers, but maybe not for long. I hope someone has success with these here. There will be at least 20-30 females in private facilities and zoos from collections this year, so hopefully someone cracks the code from these groups. 



markpulawski said:


> I absolutely agree taking animals out of the wild that have little or no chance of reproducing is wrong, especially if they are imperiled. I was happy to see the price drop for those collected, keeping them at crazy high prices in so many instances keeps the demand high for them, though I doubt the collectors in south America were ever paid such a disproportionate price for them when they were offered last year. But if the mine were to spell the end of these in the wild, collecting may be their only hope of survival. And unfortunately a country that would allow mines to destroy breeding grounds for fragile and rare animals to the point of extinction I am sure could care less how many of them are collected and exported. Too bad Surinam does not follow suit of some of the countries that have made it a priority to keep their native animals from going extinct, creating breeding programs that would attempt to mimic their natural habitat. Still wondering if after some of these mines are played out will the habitat revert to healthy conditions, sure hope so.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> Okay Ed, you are talking long-term (maybe). This give me little relief when we are talking about a sp. that already imperiled. What about the poison they use to mine the gold, such as mercury, to name one. This have to detrimental to the a whole.


Well sort of long-term. People often forget that humans have been dumping mercury into the enviroment for a long time now (thousands of years), mercury gets converted to methyl-mercury by bacteria which is mobile both in the food chain and with respect to water. Most of the mercury ends up in the ocean within a few decades so to some extent the system is self cleaning. I should also note, that the same floods that can remove the excess siltation will also help flush the system of mercury. You may be interested in reading Harvard researchers warn of legacy mercury in the environment | Harvard School of Engineering and Applied Sciences 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dr Christopher McHale (Apr 3, 2014)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Sadly, the mines are expanding. I talked to at least one person who did an environmental impact study for the gov on the mountains before gold mines were allowed to become established (not the illegal mines). The outlook did not look good and at most previously known locations no frogs have been seen in several years. It's devastating.
> 
> There are still a few locations where the species occurs in good numbers, but maybe not for long. I hope someone has success with these here. There will be at least 20-30 females in private facilities and zoos from collections this year, so hopefully someone cracks the code from these groups.


It makes me sad that a chunk of those female will end up in the "wrong hands" as well.

I am doing everything in my power to locate female but *poof* they have all disappeared.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dr Christopher McHale said:


> It makes me sad that a chunk of those female will end up in the "wrong hands" as well.
> 
> I am doing everything in my power to locate female but *poof* they have all disappeared.


One of the main reasons they may have disappeared is because they weren't females to begin with..... The ratio of males to females where the toads are collected is very heavy on the males (in some imports it has been more than 1 100 to 1). More than a few people got what were supposed to be females (generally sexed due to a larger size only to later discover that they had males when they began to call. 

This is before even considering that the females are normally found in a very different habitat than the males so they may need some significant differences. 

Since the females are collected from the breeding streams, females that were collected before depositing eggs can if not allowed to lay prolapse the eggs or develop adhesions resulting in death. 

So to make the claim that then ended up in the wrong hands or have disappeared is ignoring the bigger picture that it's possible few or none were actually imported. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As a further discussion point, if this is how you set up your atelopus tanks, then your not really addressing their needs... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...first-build-yet-another-18-x-18-x-24-exo.html 

As an example, Atelopus species have no use for bromeliads, and the species available to the hobby aren't really adapted to a dart frog sort of enclosure... 
A stream with rocks for the males with some taller stiff leaved plants are where they are normally found and that is the wrong habitat for the females. The females are dispersed in the leaf litter potentially very long distances from the streams and depending on the species can be found in drier upland habitats. Keeping them wet like many people do with dart frogs has been linked to fluid retention in the hind limbs "baggy jean" syndrome. 
In addition, housing the females in with the males outside of when the females are ready to lay eggs is a problem.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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