# Tadpoles developing oddly



## cowboy232350 (Mar 14, 2011)

I have some banded Luec tads who are about a month old, their color and front legs have already started developing before the back legs have. They are way undersized compare to where they should be at this point. I had 4 and two have already died. Has anyone seen anything like this or any experience with it?


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## cowboy232350 (Mar 14, 2011)

Any thoughts or theories?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I have never seen anything like that, Cowboy. Have the pair produced other, normal offspring? What are you feeding and what are you supplementing with? I have found a lot of my troubles with morphing and general tadpole and froglet health have been due to some sort of vitamin deficiency. Sorry I can't be of more specific help.

Mark


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## cowboy232350 (Mar 14, 2011)

I have had 3 clutches since that are all doing great and seem normal. I use repashy for my suppliments. It was a pair I just received, it was their first clutch since I got them. Was wondering maybe it was just the stress of the travel.


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## froggorf (Nov 22, 2008)

That's really odd, I would also imagine it is somehow related to a supplement deficiency (and the combination with stress likely didn't help). I don't see that tad recovering normally and you may consider euthanasia :/


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## cowboy232350 (Mar 14, 2011)

Supplements are fine, hopefully just stress. The 4 clutches since have been healthy. Thanks for all the input


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are a number of potential causes of abnormal development in tadpoles. It really isn't that hard to disrupt the development as there are a number of important stages in the development. As an example, improper formation of the limb buds while in the egg can disrupt the proper development of the front and back legs. There are reports in the old literature of hind limb development occurring abnormally in tadpoles infected with spindly leg syndrome (and those front legs are pretty indicative of spindly leg syndrome). Now as it turns out the most common reason in captivity of spindly leg was due to insufficient levels of vitamin A in the adults for provisioning the eggs of the tadpoles. Ovulation is pretty much dependent on fat reserves (which is rarely a problem in captive frogs) so any deficiency gets passed along to the eggs with the abnormal development. 

Other things that are also known to be problems are encysted parasites (unlikely unless your keeping snails in with the tadpoles), or teratogens like some plasticizers or other hormone disruptors. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

as usual your posts are enlightening...can you explain more about the snails, and the other issues?? How would you "put down" a tadpole?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

If you just received the pair then you may be dosing correctly now but whoever you got them from may not have been. This would be reflected in the pattern of clutches you describe. The first ones were probably more dependent on the husbandry practices of the person you got them from. The more recent ones might be more successful due to the supplementation regime you have been using. 

I am sure you are already doing so, but be sure to include Viatamin A (I like Repashy) and refrigerate all of your supplements after opening them. The refrigeration of supplements made a noticeable difference in the success of my frogs' breeding.

Mark


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## cowboy232350 (Mar 14, 2011)

Ah that makes sense Mark. Thank you!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> as usual your posts are enlightening...can you explain more about the snails, and the other issues?? How would you "put down" a tadpole?


Euthanizing a tadpole is pretty simple. One way is to use about a 5% solution of alcohol to start anesthetizing it, increase it to 15% after about ten minutes and ten to 20-30% or more once the tadpole becomes unresponsive. One of the things people have to understand is that it is common for the tadpole to go through an "excitatory" phase where the animal shows signs of rapid movement. Some people incorrectly interpret this as a sign of pain when it isn't an indication of pain. Instead it is due to the disorientation caused by the alcohol. Alternatively benzocaine can be dissolved in the alcohol to speed up the process. 

With respect to the snails, some ramshorn snails have the potential to be infected with a fluke whose end host are certain waterfowl. As a result the fluke encysts in tadpoles and damages the limb buds to cause a frog that is more likely to be eaten by a bird. If the frog is eaten by a bird the flukes mature to adults and start the process over again. When people set up tadpoles and some enclosures with puddles they may either deliberately or accidentally include pond grown or collected plants or other materials or snails as a clean up crew. If these are infected with the fluke, then abnormal limb development is likely as the small volume of water increases the chances that the frogs are going to be highly parasitized. 

A lot of plastics release various chemicals into the water depending on internal conditions. As an example some plastics release chemicals when exposed to hot and/or acidic conditions. Some of these chemicals can act as a teratogen which is the concise term for a mutation inducing material. Some of these chemicals are those like phthalates (which is a big group of commonly used chemicals of which some are known as teratogens) like di-n-butyl phthalate (see Exposure to low concentrations of di-n-butyl phthalate during embryogenesis reduces survivability and impairs development of Xenopus laevis frogs. - PubMed - NCBI). 
In short when considering tadpole rearing containers, glass is obviously going to be the best choice as it is inert under the conditions we keep tadpoles, some ceramics (those that do not leach metals like mercury or lead), and some food grade containers that are made for acidic materials. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

In the lab, we use a drop of clove oil to anesthetize them, takes about 10 minutes. After that, we add them to 10% formalin so we can clear and stain them. If you want to preserve him, I would say to knock him out in clove oil, then transfer him to 70% Ethanol (I think you can dilute vodka for this). 

I second the idea of plastic containers being an issue here. Their limb buds start growing a few weeks after they hatch from the egg, so sometime in between there may have been the issue.

Since BPA has trans-generational effects, it could be an issue that the mother sometimes has if she was raised in plastic, but that seems less likely if she's had fine clutches since then.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It depends on the vodka as many vodkas are 100 proof or less (which translates to 50% or less). If a person is going to dilute something like vodka, grain alcohol or alternately rubbing alcohol (which is 70% isopropyl alcohol) can be used instead and it doesn't come with age restrictions on who can and cannot purchase it.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

pretty darn interesting...but have to admit, got a little chuckle from your one line: " Some people incorrectly interpret this as a sign of pain when it isn't an indication of pain. Instead it is due to the disorientation caused by the alcohol."
The pain I sometimes get IS from the alcohol....lol. 
The possibility of having snails from plants that have been insufficiently cleaned is also interesting...you read posts from people who have gotten snails in their tanks.... and lastly, what a waste of good vodka...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> pretty darn interesting...but have to admit, got a little chuckle from your one line: " Some people incorrectly interpret this as a sign of pain when it isn't an indication of pain. Instead it is due to the disorientation caused by the alcohol."
> The pain I sometimes get IS from the alcohol....lol.


But that pain should only occur after the disorientation... 




> The possibility of having snails from plants that have been insufficiently cleaned is also interesting...you read posts from people who have gotten snails in their tanks.... and lastly, what a waste of good vodka...


Some of the problem is that people place too much reliance on trying to clean their plants and we often see reports of people using the incorrect dilutions (too weak), insufficient time and/or selectively attempting to treat plants, often only treating those that are going to be the least impacted. As a result, we often see people claiming that they when an unwanted pest appears in the tank, it couldn't have come in with the plants. 

Consider for example that many snails have opercula which can be used to close up the shell preventing exposure to the disinfecting agent, other utilize a mucous plug to aestivate again preventing the snail from being able to be killed. 

This is also before we consider the fact that the greater the amount of organic matter (including the plant itself) that is exposed to the dip, the less effective the solution becomes. This is because the agent reacts with the organic material (which includes the plants) and this is also before we consider that many plants contain areas that prevent the solution from penetrating which also prevents it from being effective. 

there are a lot of examples of this in the hobby where the idea of controlling unwanted pests and parasites has achieved almost mythic status as shown by the people complaining that the organisms couldn't have come in with the plants because they disinfected them. People need to step back and understand the realistic chances of success of doing what they want it to....

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed...another terrific point....but I have one "problem"--there may be readers who are unfamiliar with some of your scientific words...such as encysted, opercula, aestivate... they are precise and as such, have exact meanings...but I don't think I'll hurt anyone's feelings by pointing out, they may not have the will to open a dictionary... (when I first had horses, the vet talked about encysted worms--I thought he was telling me that the worms INSISTED on surviving......which required one type of wormer...lol)... I have always enjoyed your posts, and like so many others have learned so much...and other posters as well of course...but perhaps that one more step to define the word could be of benefit....ouch....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Ed...another terrific point....but I have one "problem"--there may be readers who are unfamiliar with some of your scientific words...such as encysted, opercula, aestivate... they are precise and as such, have exact meanings...but I don't think I'll hurt anyone's feelings by pointing out, they may not have the will to open a dictionary... (when I first had horses, the vet talked about encysted worms--I thought he was telling me that the worms INSISTED on surviving......which required one type of wormer...lol)... I have always enjoyed your posts, and like so many others have learned so much...and other posters as well of course...but perhaps that one more step to define the word could be of benefit....ouch....


Judy,

As much as I like to help people I don't have an unlimited amount of time (or patience). It takes a lot less time for me to type "opercula" than it does to type 


> The operculum, meaning little lid, (plural: opercula or operculums) is a corneous or calcareous anatomical structure like a trapdoor which exists in many (but not all) groups of sea snails and freshwater snails, and also in a few groups of land snails.


 (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operculum_(gastropod)). 

It takes less time for someone to copy and paste the unfamiliar word into google or another search engine than it does for me to type it out or run it down on the "net". So in some respects people have to tough it out. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I totally agree...and just having you explain how simple it is may encourage readers to do just that....curiosity is a wonderful thing...and satisfaction its own reward...lol!


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