# The Perfect Background



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm working on a large setup that mirrors a tree buttress that I photographed in Costa Rica. Stay tuned!


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

That's going to have to be an AWFULLY BIG viv


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, scaled down just a bit...

It's an office tank so not too large.

Dimensions are as follows: 28 inches high, 33 inches across the front, the two sides are 12" each and the depth of the tank (front -> back) is 32 inches. 

The plan is for it to hold my pair of CR O. pumilio, a group of CR P. lugubris and perhaps a small group of Centrolenids.


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## Youngherp420 (May 3, 2011)

this is going to be an awsome viv. Cant wait. Staying tuned


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

Im really diggin the pentagon shape! are you doing all those frogs together or 1 of the 3?


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## brinkerh420 (Oct 2, 2011)

Like in the picture, are the roots going to curl around the front of the vivarium? Awesome photo and definitely a good picture to show to influence your tank build.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Dizzle21 said:


> Im really diggin the pentagon shape! are you doing all those frogs together or 1 of the 3?


Yeah, it's a neat enclosure.

It will definitely house a pair of pumilio and a small group of lugubris. Not quite sure on the glass frogs at this point. Really will depend if I decide to have a small stream with a decent overhang.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

brinkerh420 said:


> Like in the picture, are the roots going to curl around the front of the vivarium? Awesome photo and definitely a good picture to show to influence your tank build.


that is the plan. a smaller version of the buttress with possibly a small steam/water hole at the bottom.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Are you trying out the pvc/foam/concrete method? (HX style)


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Gosh, that sounds like such a terrible idea and it looks like that tank is defective. You should crate it up and send it my way as soon as possible so you can avoid any embarrassment.

If that doesn't sound like a good idea then I'll just have to wait til it's done!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It looks ...

... familiar. 

s


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Nope, all organic. I no longer use non-organics in my enclosures.

It should, Scott. Been sitting here for about 1 1/2 years... finally know what I want to go into it and finally started getting supplies ready.


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

Who is the manufacture of that tank?
Where did you buy it?

Thanks,
Tim


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

It's a NEFG heirloom


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The company that made it is long out of business. Unfortunate as they made a really nice tank.

I think they were called Vivarium Research Group.

s



TimsViv said:


> Who is the manufacture of that tank?
> Where did you buy it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tim


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Patience is underrated. It often takes time for a GOOD plan to come together in your head.

I admire patience.

s



stemcellular said:


> ... It should, Scott. Been sitting here for about 1 1/2 years... finally know what I want to go into it and finally started getting supplies ready.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I suppose silicone is organic. Well, not really - but it IS made from a natural substance. 

s 


stemcellular said:


> Nope, all organic. I no longer use non-organics in my enclosures.


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## phytotelmata (Oct 20, 2011)

Good luck with it, but seems rather small for all those frogs. I know they are found around each other in the wild, but I've heard and read too many bad tales of mixing pumilio with other frogs. They can be very territorial, and will wrestle and clasp onto other frogs (even tinc sized ones). So I'd keep a very close eye on the lugubris.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This tank is ... BIG. 

I know what you're saying, but it's a BIG tank.

s


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

That is a sweet looking tank.....Can't wait to see what you come up with.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

phytotelmata said:


> Good luck with it, but seems rather small for all those frogs. I know they are found around each other in the wild, but I've heard and read too many bad tales of mixing pumilio with other frogs. They can be very territorial, and will wrestle and clasp onto other frogs (even tinc sized ones). So I'd keep a very close eye on the lugubris.


So long as an enclosure is designed appropriately with consideration given to all inhabitants it doesn't pose an issue. Key is to cater to individual species niches; in the case of lugubris, mud holes and leaf litter. For pumilio, significant number of deposition sites, micro fauna and enclosure depth. As in many aspects of life, and in particular this hobby, we should stay away from anecdotal observations in favor of experimental data. Can you raise and breed sympatric species in a well thought out enclosure, absolutely.


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## phytotelmata (Oct 20, 2011)

My post may have come off more negative than I expected. I honestly hope it does work, as it's something I've considered doing before myself. And I do think it can be done. I'd probably go with something slightly larger, but that's about it. But as Scott as stated, the tank is BIG. So maybe I'm just having trouble realizing how large it is. I wasn't trying to say don't do it, but just that being careful to watch out for the lugubris is something you should keep in mind.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

BIG I say! 

Actually, I think it's about 85g - I figured it out once. Not easy figuring out the area on that one.

s


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

It's 90 g Scott.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I was pretty close. It's been ages since I did the measurements. 

s


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> It's 90 g Scott.


I have a 90 gallon front opening cube in the basement that I've been sketching and looking at recently....... I've got the spot ready for it, now to start working on it. 

I think with some proper partioning and visual barriers a multispecies enclosure can be accomplished with those species. Keep in mind that depending on the section of the picture he is emulating, the enclosure is not only going to have visual barriers but multiple levels which will also partition the habitat further. The concept has been around for a long time. If you have access to a copy of Terrarium Animals, by E. Zimmermann (TFH Publications) there are some excellent diagrams of multiple level partioning. 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I keep envisioning a Huallaga canyon mixed species Viv with trivs and imitators.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

frogparty said:


> I keep envisioning a Huallaga canyon mixed species Viv with trivs and imitators.


I've thought about this as well. I've got an extra 90 gallon just waiting for something good 

As for this tank, it looks like it's going to be awesome. The species that were picked for it are a great idea as well. I'm sure if there are different layers and various barriers it'll work no problem.


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> and perhaps a small group of Centrolenids.]


Are these guys breeding for you? What species do you have?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

thedude said:


> I've thought about this as well. I've got an extra 90 gallon just waiting for something good
> 
> As for this tank, it looks like it's going to be awesome. The species that were picked for it are a great idea as well. I'm sure if there are different layers and various barriers it'll work no problem.


Forget trivs, let me know when you are ready for some yellow bassleri, adam.

Jk, I love trivs....just have too many other things going right now.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

stemcellular said:


> Forget trivs, let me know when you are ready for some yellow bassleri, adam.
> 
> Jk, I love trivs....just have too many other things going right now.


Look back through your Pm's, we already talked about that! If your offering, come spring I'd be buying


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## Shohin (Sep 21, 2011)

Dude, or should I say "TheDude", you say you have an extra 90 gallon just waiting for something good? 

An EXTRA 90 gallon? EXTRA? 

What the hey?

-Troy



thedude said:


> I've thought about this as well. I've got an extra 90 gallon just waiting for something good
> 
> As for this tank, it looks like it's going to be awesome. The species that were picked for it are a great idea as well. I'm sure if there are different layers and various barriers it'll work no problem.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Shohin said:


> Dude, or should I say "TheDude", you say you have an extra 90 gallon just waiting for something good?
> 
> An EXTRA 90 gallon? EXTRA?
> 
> ...


I have plenty of extra tanks, just not plenty of extra frog funds  if you feel like helping me out with that I'd be glad to use all my tanks! Actually, I have a 90 gallon corner as well but I don't have the room for it right now.

Considering I have sylvatica coming in february/may, funds are pretty low...


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## Shohin (Sep 21, 2011)

thedude said:


> I have plenty of extra tanks, just not plenty of extra frog funds  if you feel like helping me out with that I'd be glad to use all my tanks! Actually, I have a 90 gallon corner as well but I don't have the room for it right now.
> 
> Considering I have sylvatica coming in february/may, funds are pretty low...


Nah, can't send any funds right now, as I don't have EXTRA. But I will take one or two of those tanks off your hands, if that helps. 

-Troy


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

thedude said:


> Considering I have sylvatica coming in february/may, funds are pretty low...


I tell ya what Adam, I'm gonna help you out big time. You send one of the 90's my way and I'll have it set up perfectly for when you send some sylvatica my way...I know, I'm such a big help.


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## anuranman (Mar 29, 2009)

stemcellular said:


> Nope, all organic. I no longer use non-organics in my enclosures.



Any specific reason for staying away from non-organics? I've been reluctant to use great stuff in closed systems just on a gut feeling, but haven't heard any reports of detrimental effects.

Andrew


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

anuranman said:


> Any specific reason for staying away from non-organics? I've been reluctant to use great stuff in closed systems just on a gut feeling, but haven't heard any reports of detrimental effects.
> 
> Andrew


Beyond concern about derivative effects of some items commonly used its more of a personal and aesthetic preference.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have gone the same way, except for fishing line which gets removed before the frogs go in. It means no backgrounds really, but I have awesome driftwood trees, and I no longer worry about silicone or gorilla glue etc. Plus since my vivs focus around a central driftwood "tree" I can just remove the tree for easy tank cleaning then replace it


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Most of my tanks have natural backgrounds, ie. plants rooting up glass.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

To be honest I think the idea is well conceived but bad in the long run. O. pumilio froglets are considered relatively fragile frogs. The natural instinct is to descend into the leaf litter to hunt springs, isos, etc. This would put the fragile froglets in direct competition with the ground dwelling Phyllobates. I am not suggesting predation would occur, or that these frogs will become infected by this or that... What my concern is that if pums cannot be reared outside the viv in a consistently successful manner due to a general fragility, adding competition to that seems a bad idea. I love the design concept, and I would love to see progress pics. 

JBear


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

jbherpin said:


> To be honest I think the idea is well conceived but bad in the long run. O. pumilio froglets are considered relatively fragile frogs. The natural instinct is to descend into the leaf litter to hunt springs, isos, etc. This would put the fragile froglets in direct competition with the ground dwelling Phyllobates. I am not suggesting predation would occur, or that these frogs will become infected by this or that... What my concern is that if pums cannot be reared outside the viv in a consistently successful manner due to a general fragility, adding competition to that seems a bad idea. I love the design concept, and I would love to see progress pics.
> 
> JBear


I have seen tanks with terribilis, and pumilio together, and they couldn't of been happier. The pumilio would come down and eat the fruit flies right next to the terribilis with no problem.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I have a 94 corner and 75 vert, I always think of these as big tanks unntil I see the frogs in them. I have a pair of RFB Basti's in my 94 and they are almost always on the ground in front, I am pretty sure anything else I put in would just not work. Perhaps 2 species that were very relegated to cetain areas of a viv, truely arboreal and 1 terrestrial should work.I would suggest 1.1 and trio of the other but every time I look at my "big" tanks all I see is how small they really are.
I have always been an advocate of a "show viv" where it is for display or an aquarium type conversation piece, I have never done it though and so far have never found the right combination of frogs to try and pull it off. Maybe if I had a 300 galloin or so I would attempt it.
Good luck Ray, that background is a killler to model yours from though I don't envy the work to get it there.
ps maybe some male Atelopus and a pair of something??


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I think if anyone can pull off a well thought out and executed mixed viv its Stemcellular. Have you guys seen his frog room?! No doubt keeping and observing that many different species he knows what will work and what wont.

So Stem, since you are only using natural viv building materials, does that mean the entire root system will be made from clay? If so, its gonna be a rediculously heavy beast when finished


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

GRIMM said:


> I think if anyone can pull off a well thought out and executed mixed viv its Stemcellular. Have you guys seen his frog room?! No doubt keeping and observing that many different species he knows what will work and what wont.
> 
> So Stem, since you are only using natural viv building materials, does that mean the entire root system will be made from clay? If so, its gonna be a rediculously heavy beast when finished


Clay, tree fern, cork, different types of wood, etc. Looking forward to the challenge of pulling it together. 

J, have you bred many pumilio? Other species? They arent particularly sensitive. Have you worked with lugubris? 

Again, I find the prevalence of anecdotal based concerns in this hobby troubling. Wild Pumilio population densities are incredible, Private keepers breed pumilio in 10g with one brom. While one might question the human applied ethics of doing so, if they thrive, reproduce, grow to fullsize, etc, can a judgement truly be made? 

While we can never recreate a truly natural habitat as responsible stewards we have an obligation to learn what we can from the animals we keep. Part of that obligation, in my opinion, is to experiment and challenge conventional wisdom. I think many of the concerns raised about how we keep frogs, mixing, etc. are well intentioned, and many times well founded. However, our hesitancy as a hobby to raise the bar, test new appoaches, etc. definitely limits our ability to advance.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I have never kept Pums. If you referenced my post, it does not draw a conclusion that you cannot make this work. My worry came from the froglets foraging with adults(of a different and larger species) and attempting to compete, or at least feel comfortable enough to feed. 




stemcellular said:


> Clay, tree fern, cork, different types of wood, etc. Looking forward to the challenge of pulling it together.
> 
> *J, have you bred many pumilio? Other species? They arent particularly sensitive. Have you worked with lugubris?
> 
> ...


 If that is your honest opinion, than I would expect you to encourage this practice across the board. Or do you believe only you can accomplish this..? Sorry... I know this post was a bit sarcastic, but I felt a little attacked and belittled with your reply, after all, all I shared was an opinion geared toward the health of YOUR frogs... God forgive me for being "anecdotal"... 

I hope it works for you.

Happy ThanksGiving

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> What my concern is that if pums cannot be reared outside the viv in a consistently successful manner due to a general fragility, adding competition to that seems a bad idea. I love the design concept, and I would love to see progress pics.


One of the things with the hobby is that certain things such as the fraility of pumilio froglets becomes dogma and once it is dogma then few if any methods are tried to figure out why it has to be that way instead people develop methods to accomedate it (such as not pulling froglets). When I heard this years ago, I thought well that is odd, since the adults are really quite hardy and do well in a wide variety of conditions. Given that people were successfully breeding them in a wide variety of conditions, that points somewhat away from housing and more towards nutrition.. That led me to start to take a long hard look at the nutritional status of the frogs in general and what is probably different. There were a number of things that I flagged up in several different areas, one of which was carotenoids (since many reported a color loss in a variety of frogs)..... 

Now we also hear of a lot of reports of behaviors that would be considered abnormal in wild populations (but are considered accepted in captive animals) such as 

1) feeding tadpoles in locations they didn't place the tadpole
2) male "calling" the female to lay eggs for the tadpoles (this right off the bat should be considered odd, since in the wild populations, males have no part in placing the tadpoles or caring for them once the female transport them) 
3) females producing fertile clutches while egg feeding
4) aggressive attacks on froglets 

Many of these are considered "acceptable" behaviors when in reality, they are probably reflecting some aspect of husbandry that isn't appropriate for the frog and as a consequence we are seeing abnormal behaviors in the frogs. 

As Ray, noted, in ideal habitats, the frogs can be found at densities that far exceed those considered appropriate in captivity, which should also be an indication that something is lacking in thier husbandry as we can't imitate much less approximate those ideal conditions. 

Some comments, 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

So since we know so little, we should throw in another species and gain knowledge from that? I acknowledge that Stem is WELL respected by myself and this community. I just think there is no purpose in doing this. There is nothing that can be learned about the proper captive care of 1 species or the other as they will behave in a manner that responds to the different species' very presence. Maybe I am blind, but I am NOT seeing the benefit.

JBear



Ed said:


> One of the things with the hobby is that certain things such as the fraility of pumilio froglets becomes dogma and once it is dogma then few if any methods are tried to figure out why it has to be that way instead people develop methods to accomedate it (such as not pulling froglets). When I heard this years ago, I thought well that is odd, since the adults are really quite hardy and do well in a wide variety of conditions. Given that people were successfully breeding them in a wide variety of conditions, that points somewhat away from housing and more towards nutrition.. That led me to start to take a long hard look at the nutritional status of the frogs in general and what is probably different. There were a number of things that I flagged up in several different areas, one of which was carotenoids (since many reported a color loss in a variety of frogs).....
> 
> Now we also hear of a lot of reports of behaviors that would be considered abnormal in wild populations (but are considered accepted in captive animals) such as
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> So since we know so little, we should throw in another species and gain knowledge from that? I acknowledge that Stem is WELL respected by myself and this community. I just think there is no purpose in doing this. There is nothing that can be learned about the proper captive care of 1 species or the other as they will behave in a manner that responds to the different species' very presence. Maybe I am blind, but I am NOT seeing the benefit.
> 
> JBear


The problem is that you are making the assumption that the other species are being "thrown" into the enclosure which implies that there is little or no plan. That is not the case in this enclosure. Ray has been very clear that he is designing specific niches for the animals involved... When looking at spatial usages of territorial animals, people often think that a territory is an absolute exclusion zone, which is not true. Territories often overlap with only specific resource areas being defended. This is how the resource availability needs to be placed in the enclosure.

One of the problems as noted by Ray is that there are issues with being able to house frogs in the densities seen in the wild. We already know that density of the frogs increase in relation to the density of resources (see for example JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie and SpringerLink - Oecologia, Volume 81, Number 2 and Population differences in female resource abundance, adult sex ratio, and male mating success in Dendrobates pumilio). The frogs exhibit a territorial behavior based on the group living, single forager model (not frog but see http://stripedmouse.com/documents/Schradin2004.pdf) all of which provides us with a model that can be used to work with the enclosure to provide the best niches. Too often, when we look at pictures of enclosure for the frogs, we see extremely heavily planted enclosures in which the needs of the frogs are often secondary to esthetics..... 

The opinion I'm getting from your post is that it would be better to ignore the chance to gain some empirical evidence (even though it is anecdotal) and continue on with the dogma that it is inappropriate to attempt to house multiple zoogeographically correct taxa together. Is this correct? 

Some comments,

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

J, this is beyond the scope of this thread and wont be permitted. Feel free to participate in one of the many mixing threads. Thanks.

Ed, you raise an interesting point. How do we contrast what we know about behavior in natural habitat vs. what we observe in captivity and how should we respond? 

You are dead on about nutrition. Also, I think experimentation by some with different substrates, ie. clay, lighting, microfauna, definitely leads us in a good direction toward better husbandry.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Exactly. The goal is to mimic a natural habitat aesthetically while designing an enclosure that is able to support the necessary levels of microfauna, as well as full decomposition of fruit, ff development, etc. I'm building a small circulatory system to work in conjunction with a misting system, and since the lab is temp controlled, i will be able to keep very consistent and regulated temps. I also actually have some very nice pieces of porous wood that I am planning to integrate/cover with clay, pieces with termites, cacao leaves, large palm leaves, etc. 

Over the last year I 've introduced Julio's CR isopods to all my tanks and have been very happy with how established they have become when fed fruit. Looking forward to seeing how well they establish in a larger enclosure with other introduced types of inverts.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Check this out, the top of a dry stream bed beneath a fruit tree on Isla Colon. There was a wall of ffs, literally, I inhaled so many, but there were frogs EVERYWHERE. B. coniferus, A. talmanacae, another Allobates, P. lugubris, A. claudiae, o. Pumilio, bufo sp., Anolis sp., etc. the ground was literally crawling. Pretty damn cool.

Point being, all species were feeding together. The lugubris appeared to emerge and disappear into the crab holes ( yes, tons of crabs) whereas the pumilio were scattered everywhere, along with the Allobates sp.


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## evannave (Jan 23, 2009)

I forgot to ask but what plants are you planning to do are they going to also be from the same area. I wish had the knowledge of plants to do a biotope of the plants that specically or will they be more representive of the area
Evan Walsh


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I have a good number of plants endemic to CR. However, Josh's list is a fantastic resource:
http://www.biotopicdesign.com/neotropical_plantlist.pdf

I'm partial to aroids, pepperomia and small climbers but will aim for something to mimic heliconia for deposition sites.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I've seen a new Canna that's only supposed to get 12-15" tall.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Heliconia stricta "dwarf Jamaican" supposedly stays 1-2ft tall in flower


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I just want to say it's nice to see Costa Rican enclosures and species getting some attention again. In my opinion vittatus, auratus and "Blue Jeans" are the holy trifecta of Dendrobatid frogs.


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## evannave (Jan 23, 2009)

I posted some questions that I think my have been deleted accidently along with some others by other people that were about mixing in general were as mine were about the tank in the thread that I still would like answered. So which ever mod can do so please repost. I was not contacted by any mods and I know the post violated no rules and kept a friendly tone and was about the tank. 
Evan Walsh


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Those posts that were focusing on the mixing aspects were split to this new thread...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...plit-re-mixing-perfect-background-thread.html

Let's keep the original thread about the background. Everyone is welcome to comment on the mixing aspect in the new thread.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> I just want to say it's nice to see Costa Rican enclosures and species getting some attention again. In my opinion vittatus, auratus and "Blue Jeans" are the holy trifecta of Dendrobatid frogs.


Thanks, Ron. Yeah, they are pretty rad. Brian K. had some really nice enclosures with multiple endemic species. I have some photos and video that I can send you, very cool and a good inspiration for my planned enclosure.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ray-

Best of luck, and do post progression pics! I am sure it will be awesome!

JBear


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ray i'm fascinated by how you will tackle this build,can you please give more details on how you plan to replicate heliconia deposition sites. Scaling down of a tree buttress is something i have contemplated many times,which is what has drawn me to post please include many pics.I have spent many hours staring at natives here trying to figure this one,best of luck with it. on a side note thanks for the many habitat pics you have posted,they have been a great help and inspiration here, its difficult trying to build a habitat one has never walked in
regards
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

With respect to the dwarf heliconia, does anyone have any idea on the size of the pytotelmata? If it is going to be too small to supply the needed phytotelmata, then other options may be of more value. 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Honestly I have no idea, and after reading a bit more it seems that the plant, whole not especially tall, will outgrow that tank with a quickness, so I'd advise against it


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> Honestly I have no idea, and after reading a bit more it seems that the plant, whole not especially tall, will outgrow that tank with a quickness, so I'd advise against it


It looks like there are several possible options see this site Small Heliconias for the descriptions (not advocating them as a plant source) but there are some that appear to get much less than 3 feet tall and will also do well in shade (like lower light conditions seen in the terraria). 

I'm still curious about the phytotelmata volume though. 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

It's notthe heighth, but the circumference o the plant that seems it would outgrow this Viv quickly


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> It's notthe heighth, but the circumference o the plant that seems it would outgrow this Viv quickly


Ahhh gotcha. 

Thanks

Ed


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

not to be rude, but enough with the talking lets see some pics!!!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Haha ok. Some quick photos of the wood I plan to use in conjunction with clay to mimic the buttress.





































I have about 6 more large pieces that I am going to try and use to create the various levels of the buttress. I will use clay to fill in the gaps and as a biological coat for the wood.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

this is gonna be really good! can't wait for it to be completed.


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

Sweet! So reading the discussion on here w/r/t the two populations got me thinking about that mantella tank you have with the horizontal overhangs, which I thought was sweet visually and also falls in line with Ed's philosophy of maximizing space while cutting off visibility of other spots. Have you thought about maybe creating some horizontal shelves like vertical floor space under which you can toss leaf litter and hides for the lugs like in that photo wt the crab holes? Just a random thought


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

winstonamc said:


> Sweet! So reading the discussion on here w/r/t the two populations got me thinking about that mantella tank you have with the horizontal overhangs, which I thought was sweet visually and also falls in line with Ed's philosophy of maximizing space while cutting off visibility of other spots. Have you thought about maybe creating some horizontal shelves like vertical floor space under which you can toss leaf litter and hides for the lugs like in that photo wt the crab holes? Just a random thought


Like this?


























Exactly the plan. I picked up a small warehouse of varying sizes of cork tubes. My plan is to use those to create a secondary layer of tree roots under which there will be invaginations/ pockets in the substrate. The primary idea is to create as many levels, hides, deposition pools, as possible. 

The one thing I have to think through more clearly is whether to have a small pool, flowing stream, etc. my feeling is that it won't be necessary but have to think a bit more about it.


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

You're doing a false bottom?
Cause you could always drill and just set up a drip wall wt out a body of water (maybe need to partition some hydroton + leaf litter area below or something if you didn't want to soak the substrat); the plant options would just open up


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Have you considered burying longer jungle pods into the substrate to simulate crab holes?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Good idea! I ordered a bunch a different sized seed pods but those will work well. Thanks!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Seems like it would be very enjoyable to watch the frogs disappear and reappear out of he "crab holes"


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

think I'm gonna steal that idea frogparty once I get my 90g. And yea, Ray, that was exactly the setup I was talking about. Seems like a perfect way to maximize the gallons of available space


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

Just to continue off of what we were talking about earlier wt the cork bark. All of the cool work wt fake vines / branches and such got me thinking, what if you combined both methodologies to have shelves like what you have in that mantella tank that also are not totally solid, like areas of vines (maybe wt a few pods stuck in place) that are basically horizontal instead of vertical that would almost be like scaffholding?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Suspended "baskets" of leaf litter would provide much more usable space for pumilio offspring. Also, lately I've been making refugiums out of cork bark tubes. These provide tons of microfauna, without the possibilty of all of it getting eaten too quickly, while making bug feeding even more simple.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

can you describe more fully just how your orient the cork tubes...I have a couple to use but can't make up my mind just how to best use them. How long would the pieces be, and would they be horizontal...slanted...both??


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Judy, I tend to use them as arboreal perches (wedged across an enclosure a foot or so off the ground, sometimes higher), as well as in creating artificial land barriers...for example, if you reference the original background photo, each level will have a long cork tube employed as a means of creating a wall of substrate behind it, basically giving the next level some depth. some of the tubes have cracks, holes, which will be filled with bio matter, leaf litter, basically allowing for a niche for young frogs, microfauna, etc.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I sorta had that in my mind to do...how long is the "life" of cork bark used in this way?? 
When you used the term "tubes" I took it literally and imagined an actual tube...and couldn't visualize how best to use it...the piece I have looks like a tree trunk..but hollow...so I had plans to use it as such...a cork "tree"--but thought that my critters would hide inside...thanks for your answer..the cork pieces I have other than the "tree" will be used as you suggested...for ledges...do you use silicone to place them?? You mentioned wedging...is that your only method??


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Cork last a very long time, even when kept wet, IME. I don't use silicone. If I need to adhere something I use clay.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Think of a cork in a wine bottle. It will last forever...


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## jausi (May 14, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> If I need to adhere something I use clay.


that very interesting using clay for background, how you deal with the humidity? and how long will clay last in a viv?


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Humidity is clay's friend. Without enough humidity/misting clay will just dry out and crack. 

If I remember correctly, Ed has had clay in a viv for 4+ years. I'm sure that the clay will be around long after we're dead and worm food.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Make sure when you make the different levels to leave enough room away from the walls. I made a tank once and didn't quite leave enough room, it's been hell getting leaf litter under there ever since


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I've used clay for ledges in a 20G convert--and it doesn't support as much weight as I thought it would..the humidity makes the attachment too unpredictable...so any substrate might not be practical... That was why I asked about the silicone.


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## SutorS (Feb 20, 2011)

stemcellular said:


> I also actually have some very nice pieces of porous wood that I am planning to integrate/cover with clay, pieces with termites, cacao leaves, large palm leaves, etc.


If I am reading this correctly, you are introducing pieces with termites? How are you doing this? Are you taking porous wood and establishing termites in it or using pieces from the wild? I'm just curious, I'm a big termite fan.

I love the look of this background. I have been waiting to do a similar build from a picture I took on the east coast of Madagascar. I can not wait to see how this turns out!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Correct. Some pieces have a termite colony.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stevenhman said:


> Humidity is clay's friend. Without enough humidity/misting clay will just dry out and crack.
> 
> If I remember correctly, Ed has had clay in a viv for 4+ years. I'm sure that the clay will be around long after we're dead and worm food.


I'd have to go back and check my notes but it has been at least 4 years as a background... I think I've learned all I can from that tank so it is in the slow process of being broken down. 

Ed


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## mingeace (Apr 3, 2011)

Ed, I am sure somewhere on this board you have your clay recipe but could you post a link? 

I tried the clay back ground about 3-4 month ago using, I think, Grimms recipe (red art, sodium bentonite, pete and water) and all my backgrounds are melting away. It was said that humidity is clays friend but in my tanks its just made a huge mess.

I am sure that my problem can be chalked up to some lacking on my part but I like this idea of going "all natural" and would love a great clay recipe that would last 4 years.

Oh and Stem good luck with this build I cant wait to see the end result. Its "pros" like you that help educate and inspire novice frogers like me ha.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mingeace said:


> Ed, I am sure somewhere on this board you have your clay recipe but could you post a link?
> 
> I tried the clay back ground about 3-4 month ago using, I think, Grimms recipe (red art, sodium bentonite, pete and water) and all my backgrounds are melting away. It was said that humidity is clays friend but in my tanks its just made a huge mess.
> 
> ...


I've done some different things but in all of mine, I spent a lot of time stabilizing the background before doing anything else to it. In the one that was up for years I spent three months stabillizing it before I ran water across it or tried planting it up. It rapidly became colonized by mosses and ferns and since that point was very stable... 

I don't remember the ratios off hand. At this time due to the lenth of time required to get them stable I've moved away from [email protected] clay backgrounds and am using some of the tree fern I've had laying around for a while now. I'm also shying away from 100% backgrounds. anymore. I'm siliconing small patches of treefern to the glass with big spaces between them to simulate patches of bromeliads or other plants. 


Ed


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## mingeace (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks for the tips Ed. I guess I just need to be smarter than a peace of glass ha.


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Any updates on this project?

-Alex


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

ExoticPocket said:


> Any updates on this project?
> 
> -Alex


I was hoping the same. The concept and space are interesting... Any build pics for updates?

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ray, I'm curious how you do your bottoms if you do strictly organics. LECA with a clay substrate on top, with no screen separation?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I use a thick layer of coco husk and mixed bark chips


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

Ed said:


> I'm also shying away from 100% backgrounds. anymore. I'm siliconing small patches of treefern to the glass with big spaces between them to simulate patches of bromeliads or other plants.
> 
> 
> Ed


I really like the sound of this idea Ed. Do you have pics of some vivs you have done his way?? 

Josh


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

josh_r said:


> I really like the sound of this idea Ed. Do you have pics of some vivs you have done his way??
> 
> Josh


The only one that is currently (partly) up is a 90 gallon I'm putting together. I have glued the patches on yet as I have to finish the solacryl top since the placement of misters and other hardware is going to determine the final placement of the patches. I tried it out in a couple of ten gallons and it worked better than I expected (but I didn't take pictures). When you look at pictures of bromeliads on verticle surfaces, they are often a clump of a single species of bromeliad with occasionally some other ephiphytes in the mix. Horizontal surfaces with a patch of plants are often of a wider group of species. I'm looking to make a similar habitat (I don't want to say biotope since I'm not looking to replicate exact species of plants). 

Ed


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

Ed said:


> The only one that is currently (partly) up is a 90 gallon I'm putting together. I have glued the patches on yet as I have to finish the solacryl top since the placement of misters and other hardware is going to determine the final placement of the patches. I tried it out in a couple of ten gallons and it worked better than I expected (but I didn't take pictures). When you look at pictures of bromeliads on verticle surfaces, they are often a clump of a single species of bromeliad with occasionally some other ephiphytes in the mix. Horizontal surfaces with a patch of plants are often of a wider group of species. I'm looking to make a similar habitat (I don't want to say biotope since I'm not looking to replicate exact species of plants).
> 
> Ed


Wow Ed, this has inspired me to rethink doing the fake rock background I was working on. I was thinking about how I could simulate more accurately a tree canopy with various epiphytes growing on branches. This would be a great way to accomplish this. 

I would love to see your final product when it's finished Ed. Thanks for the ideas. 

Josh


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Any updates/pictures of this tank Ray?


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