# Help a beginner with a 6.5g bowfront froggie viv build?



## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

Greetings 
For some time now I'm fascinated by these little creatures and following threads and projects in this forum (and few others) on how to keep them myself.
In the past I mostly dealt with fish/shrimp and underwater creatures but experienced with paludariums and other environments - check this project:
Picasa Web Albums - Gal Goshen - Paludarium


I already plan and collect equipment to build a decent size paludarium - but before, I'd like to gain some experience and practice by transforming my little DIY 6.5 gallon fronbow into a small Dart frog habitat.
It's a 40cm wide, 30cm high and around 22cm deep max. around 25l / 6.5g
This is a gallery of it's current state:
Picasa Web Albums - Gal Goshen - Shrimossia

I wonder if its even suitable for a pair/trio of beginner level dart frogs?
Any link to a similar build journal or forum thread?
Any recommendations regarding design/species of frogs/plants and substrates etc. ?

Thank you in advance,
Gal


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think a 6.5g would be too small, really. Maybe ok for a couple froglets. Or a really cool, plants only, terrarium with some mini orchids.


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

I was afraid someone would say that 
I've been dealing with many "nano" aquariums - planted, shrimp and even a nano-reef, so, the instability and cons of a small habitats are well known to me.
However, I'd still like to experiment with a small tank before continue with my much bigger project (already have most of the required HW for a 250L tank).
I also intend to populate it very lightly (the minimum recommended number) and pack the system with plants and other "supportive" content for stabilization.

Aren't there any species that will do well in a small habitat like this?

I have a lot of patience and ready to stabilize the ecosystem before introducing live specimens into it .

This small tank will be used as a quarantine/treatment tank in the future when I'll have the bigger one - so would need to build it anyhow I guess...

Thank you again,
Gal


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Dart frogs are territorial and need space so they don't get stressed out and their immune systems leave them vulnerable. This forum has awesome information on just about any build you could think of for darts. Do some searches and when you're comfortable go with a style you like.


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

There is indeed so much great information on this forum - I spent few month already doing "homework" but would still appreciate some additional guidance  

So - It'll help me focus my study if someone would recommend a suitable species that will feel comfortable in a rather small tank (thumbnails perhaps) ?
Obviously best if it'll be a hardy species suitable for a beginner/intermediate owner.
I'm ready to study and invest what ever is needed (I have a professional background in biology and health issues - as well as vast experience growing other pets...) 

Gal


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Perhaps one thumbnail? I would not try to put two in there. Better to listen to the more experienced, though, as I'm still rather new myself.


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## bobzarry (Mar 2, 2005)

With all due respect Galgo. If indeed you have been reading as you say you have, then you already know the answer to your question. That tank is too small. Always put the health of the frogs first. 
If you really want to set up that tank set it up as a plant only tank.


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## spottedcircus (Sep 17, 2009)

The smaller the frog the more territorial they are. You could maybe keep 1froglet in there but I bet you would never see them. It would be good as a tadpole tank. The minimum size for more than one frog is 20 gallons. Those tanks are cheap to set up and almost free in Craigslist sometimes. Good luck!


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

Thank you guys for the advice -
I do respect your comments and don't intend to go with anything that'll harm the frogs or be considered un-healthy...

I guess I'll have to do some more reading... 

What species would you recommend for a small tank setup and what would be the minimal tank size to hold them comfortably?

Unfortunately a 20g tank is too big for this pilot so unless it'll be possible to host them in something smaller - I'll have to delay the whole thing until the bigger tank will be ready.

BTW - What's the recommended setup for a quarantine/temporary tank?

Thank you again,
Gal


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I hate to pop your bubble, but perhaps in terms you are familiar with. You say you have done nano reefs. Did you put a trio of yellow tangs in there? How about a Lionfish? Or even just one sailfin tang? It simply will not work. Would you be happy living in a closet? 
You are going to have a hard time finding anyone to help you kill frogs here. The goal here is keep happy, healthy frogs. Not to see how much you can cramp them because it's cute. 
I do thumbnails and want to inform you that even though they are small, they need to climb. So they won't work either. You need to change your goal here and then people will be happy to chime in and help. That 6.5 gallon tank has no business holding frogs. It will make a fine, frogless, nano-terrerium.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but the health and happiness of the frogs has to come first.


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi,
Please guys - I fully understand your point and as a former aquatic forum moderator - I also appreciate the responsibility you carry for educating beginners and conserving these wonderful animals.

As I said - I'm not into harming frogs in any way - if the 6.5g was no good - I'll keep it as my Nano planted/shrimp tank... They love it 

Still, isn't there a decent setup with minimal number of frogs that will thrive in <20g tank?

I'll accept if you say "No Way" - but perhaps there is a viable formula?

And if not - than please point me to the minimal sized tank setups and a suitable species for me...

Also a guide regarding the build of a temporary/quarantine tank will be appreciated.

I hope you'll continue to help me,
Regards,
Gal


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I had 4 auratus in a 30g tank. It was too small for them to exist peacefully and one ended up being picked on and bullied. I moved him to a 10 gallon tank, to get him out of his stressful environment. 

Some say that rule of thumb is at least 10g per frog. I generally use 10g tanks for temporary housing for one frog.

IMO, it is probably better to wait until you can get, at least, a 20g set up for frogs.


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

Try the exoterra or zoomed 12x12x18 tanks they are close to the footprint of your 6.5bow they work for the smaller thumbs imo still pretty small but you might be able to pull off a pair in one no more than that deffinetly and no tincs. i deffinetly agree with frogface with beginner frogs like tincs you need at least 10g a frog 
-scotty


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I agree that the 12x12x18 tall would work for a pair of thumbnails. Pick something fairly bold, maybe a pair of intermedius or other imitator. In my opinion, Intermedius is a very nice first thumbnail. They are colorful enough to be seen easily climbing through your foliage, and bold enough to stare back at you while you are watching them. In fact, I can assure you that a pair in a well set up tank that size, will be happy enough to breed. Would bigger be better? Sure, but I think that's been covered. 
Set it up with a background material going all the way up the back of the tank. Lots of options here. Personally, I love the look of a cork bark back wall. However, the new clay backgrounds are much cheaper and simpler and they can look great too. Speaking of great, there are some excellent results to be had from Great Stuff backgrounds which are also nice and cheap. 
The important thing here, for thumbnails, is climbing space. You are able to get away with smaller floor space by providing lots of verticle climbing space. Put some wood in the setup too. Something tall enough to climb on...your thumbnail "children" are going to want a jungle gym! Lots of plants with big enough leaves to play hide and seek in. I love ghost wood myself. 
Don't forget to read up on false bottoms or Leca for proper drainage. On top of that, I prefer to use ABG mix from Josh's Frogs.
Here is a shot of my latest thumbnail tank. Got some imitator Veradero on the way for it. Somebody is sure to comment on my lack of Bromeliads. I prefer to use lots of broad leafed plants, film canisters, and hidey holes. This allows for easier egg collection.
I hope this is a little more like the info you are looking for?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, by the way, the picture in the last post is 24" x 24" x 24" with a slope front.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

spottedcircus said:


> The smaller the frog the more territorial they are. You could maybe keep 1froglet in there but I bet you would never see them. It would be good as a tadpole tank. The minimum size for more than one frog is 20 gallons. Those tanks are cheap to set up and almost free in Craigslist sometimes. Good luck!


What about ventrimaculatus? They live in groups, practice social parasitism and do well in small spaces.. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> What about ventrimaculatus? They live in groups, practice social parasitism and do well in small spaces..
> 
> Ed


Would he be able to do them in his 6.5g tank?


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## Morgan Freeman (Feb 26, 2009)

If floor space is the issue, simply build a custom arboreal tank. The footprint only needs to be 12 x12 and you could make it 2ft plus tall. A pair of thumbs would work fine in that.


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## xshortstufx (Jul 15, 2010)

I've been housing my tinc in a 10 gallon for a while now. The tank is planted, has a coco hut, a feeding station, a water dish, and a piece of wood. Right now it seems fine but I'm working on a 20 gallon because there won't be enough space when he's full grown.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Would he be able to do them in his 6.5g tank?


Based on a discussion with a friend of mine (who is no longer active here), and his experience I experimentally kept a colony of 5 (2.3) in a 5.5 gallon tank for more than 5 years. My friend's experience started with a group of 4 in a ten gallon tank, and other than feeding the frogs, didn't pull any animals and ended up with close to 20 frogs in the tank when he broke it down.. It was a very unexpected result....
Despite multiple egg deposition sites, I was able to observe what *could have been *social parasitism as tadpoles were provided with eggs and smaller tadpoles with tadpoles being successfully reared to metamorphs by the adults. So what looked to be normal behaviors occured in the system. 
This was the same group that I used to supply tadpoles for some anecdotal trial runs on cannibalism... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

xshortstufx said:


> I've been housing my tinc in a 10 gallon for a while now. The tank is planted, has a coco hut, a feeding station, a water dish, and a piece of wood. Right now it seems fine but I'm working on a 20 gallon because there won't be enough space when he's full grown.


People should be more aware of the history of spatial needs of dendrobatids. For many decades, the standard recommendation was 5 gallons/frog but this has issues (covered in the early parts of this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html). As a result, a more modern dogmatic approach has been ten gallons/frog but again this is subject to the same limitations as the 5 gallons/frog.. Now more space does tend to be better as it gives a greater variety of microniches, space to forage (provided you do not overfeed your frogs), and stability of the microecosystem. The problem is that these rules of thumb are becoming dogmatic absolutes which are applied equally to all frogs regardless of species and biology and in all situations. The problem with it as a dogmatic approach is that it does not encourage experimentation to determine other approaches.. As an example for those with a copy of Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, I suggest looking at the density of pumilio in the picture on page 601 ( on a quick count, I saw 11 pumilio including a calling male) where there is a high density of pumilio in an area of several square feet.... The current dogma in the hobby is that any attempt to keep pumilio in groups is probably going to end up with a lot of dead animals.... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

go with a 20 breeder and make it a vert


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

there right 6.5 gallons is two small for any dart frog. just go on craigs list and get a 10 gallon or more.
i got a 20 gallon tall that retails for around 40 dallors and i got it for 10.


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

Thank you again everyone,
As I said - I don't want to harm any creature and would like to create a small, yet, healthy and stable (as much as possible) environment to suite the animals inside.

I manage to put my hands on a nice 67L tank (Jebo 352) :
http://wb7.itrademarket.com/pdimage/48/1844348_jebo352.jpg

I intend to transform it into a small Paludarium/Dart-frog habitat.

I'm thinking about natural cork background with a small water fall and a front "pond".

But before I start - I'd like to know what species of Dart frog you recommend to a beginner like me (with a lot of patience and ability to learn) - preferably a species I can host more than one specimen in this Tank.

After choosing the species - I'll decide on the specifics of the background and design...
Thank you,
Gal


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## xshortstufx (Jul 15, 2010)

I think Leucs are a good beginner frog (next on my list) that do well in groups. As for specifics on this PDF, I'm sure someone with experience will chime in soon.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Lets start with converting that to inches and gallons. 3.78 liters in a gallon. 76 liters divided by 3.78 is 17.7 gallons. So lets just say it's an 18 gallon tank. Thats right about 20 inches wide. 13 inches front to back. 16 inches tall.

20" x 13" x 16" tall, 18 gallon tank. In my opinion, a little bit small for a group of Luecs. I'm thinking a good size for a pair of Tincs. Might be just a little short for climbing thumbs but you could probably still do a pair of imitators or a trio of Vents.

You definitely have something you can work with now! Now you need tell us what frogs really grab you and we'll see who wants to chime in and say why they would be a good choice...or not so good.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Tincs, leucs, auratus, terribilis, bicolor, or vittatus would all be good choices... you could get away with a small group of vittatus in there as they're pretty social. In a tank of that size, I'd keep the water feature on the smaller side.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> People should be more aware of the history of spatial needs of dendrobatids. For many decades, the standard recommendation was 5 gallons/frog but this has issues (covered in the early parts of this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html). As a result, a more modern dogmatic approach has been ten gallons/frog but again this is subject to the same limitations as the 5 gallons/frog.. Now more space does tend to be better as it gives a greater variety of microniches, space to forage (provided you do not overfeed your frogs), and stability of the microecosystem. The problem is that these rules of thumb are becoming dogmatic absolutes which are applied equally to all frogs regardless of species and biology and in all situations. The problem with it as a dogmatic approach is that it does not encourage experimentation to determine other approaches.. As an example for those with a copy of Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, I suggest looking at the density of pumilio in the picture on page 601 ( on a quick count, I saw 11 pumilio including a calling male) where there is a high density of pumilio in an area of several square feet.... The current dogma in the hobby is that any attempt to keep pumilio in groups is probably going to end up with a lot of dead animals....
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


I'll just echo Ed's statements....and add that I think 1 adult frog (not trivs or terriblis, though preferably)in a 6.5 gal that is well made and planted densely is probably ok, though I'd go for a luec or something on the small side probably. I also wouldn't have a huge issue with someone putting a vent, or gl lamasi or something a long those lines in one...maybe even a pair. Those frogs are tiny and while they may use more space if given to them there is plenty of room for them to stretch their legs, and find multiple hiding spots given their size and generally pairs aren't to territorial with each other...but I wouldn't stick 2 of the same sex in something that small. 

I don't really buy into the thumbs must be in verts philosophy either, we are talking just a few inches between the height of a 6.5gal and a 10 vert...I doubt the frog notices or cares. If we were talking a foot or more it may start to matter. Also as far as I know darts are not so intelligent that they get bored being in the same space. I think as long as they can stretch their legs and hop around a bit and are other wise well cared for while not jammed into a small space with a bunch of other frogs they constantly bump noses with they'll likely be fine. My personal preference is not to keep them that way but I have little doubt they'd be fine if generally well cared for. I do think 6.5gal is probably to small for a pair of anything above thumb size. I prefer to use tanks like that for growing out froglets or housing an extra single frog.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> People should be more aware of the history of spatial needs of dendrobatids. For many decades, the standard recommendation was 5 gallons/frog but this has issues (covered in the early parts of this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html). As a result, a more modern dogmatic approach has been ten gallons/frog but again this is subject to the same limitations as the 5 gallons/frog.. Now more space does tend to be better as it gives a greater variety of microniches, space to forage (provided you do not overfeed your frogs), and stability of the microecosystem. The problem is that these rules of thumb are becoming dogmatic absolutes which are applied equally to all frogs regardless of species and biology and in all situations. The problem with it as a dogmatic approach is that it does not encourage experimentation to determine other approaches.. As an example for those with a copy of Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, I suggest looking at the density of pumilio in the picture on page 601 ( on a quick count, I saw 11 pumilio including a calling male) where there is a high density of pumilio in an area of several square feet.... The current dogma in the hobby is that any attempt to keep pumilio in groups is probably going to end up with a lot of dead animals....
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


Great post. I have seen many such examples myself. There is an off-display five gallon tank in the American Museum of Natural History that houses four or five breeding bastimentos pumilio. I have bred terribilis, vittatus, tinctorius (many morphs), leucomelas, auratus, ventrimiculatus, galactonotus, and tricolor in ten gallon aquariums or slightly smaller rubbermaid containers. These rules of thumb that people throw around are perhaps good starting points for beginners but are not actually correct.

BTW, for the OP, one leucomelas, auratus, or vittatus would do well in that size tank if properly cared for.


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

Hello again guys.

So... I went to visit a friend of mine who apparently grow and breed Dart frogs locally.
After watching these little gems in real world and have better understanding of what it takes to grow them - I'm ready to commit to my first venture.

The specimens I fell in love with were his SUPER CUTE Ranitomeya ventrimaculata "Amazonica" Thumbs - so it seems that my current direction with these or a similar Ranitomeya morph... 

I know it's not exactly a beginner frog - but I feel that with a local support, a lot of reading and patience, I can provide a suitable environment for them.

I intend to start with a small habitat optimized for a small breeding group (2-3 !?) and only afterwards continue with my much bigger Paludarium project.

So now, after I know what's the type of frog I intend to grow, I have few options for the habitat laying around :
1) Various small 25-40l (6-10g) glass aquariums
2) Medium size #1 - HAILEA FA400 (~65l / 17g) : 48x36x42.8cm (~19"/14"/17" with cover)
3) Medium size #2 - Jebo 352 (~67l / 19g) : 51X34X41cm (~20"/13.5"/16" w/o cover) - this is taller internally then the previous.
4) Buying a small Exo-Terra (or a similar terrarium) such as the 30X30X45cm or the smallest you recommend... (probably better- but would still prefer to utilize the tanks I already have...)

I'd like to keep this project as compact as possible (mainly due too WAF ...) but without compromising on the animals health.

- Which of the above tanks would you choose?
- What will be the smallest recommend number of the above Thumbs to create a healthy/successful breeding group?
- Any other tips regarding appropriate habitat needs of these amazing jewels ?

After choosing the better tank - I'll probably start a new building thread... so stay tuned 

Thank you again,
Gal

P.S. - As this hobby is not very common here - there are not many 2nd hand habitats around...


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I say go with 3 and make it into a vertical tank. But it depends on the age of the frogs too. If they are young 19g is alright. If they are full grown I would on place 2 in that inclosure. Someone with more experience with thumbs will chime in soon. But just from reading they need more height then floor space.


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## Regalia (Feb 12, 2010)

Galgo said:


> Hello again guys.
> 
> So... I went to visit a friend of mine who apparently grow and breed Dart frogs locally.
> After watching these little gems in real world and have better understanding of what it takes to grow them - I'm ready to commit to my first venture.
> ...


I picked up my first pair of frogs last weekend a a reptile show. Decided about two months ago that I was going to do this so I got everything prepared way in advance. That is my biggest recommendation to you. 

So yea, first step is to choose your tank. I personally wanted to do something somewhat small as well without putting the frogs at risk. I did some reading around and went pretty much with what DendroDave said. If the frogs are in a good environment (well planted and such) then the frogs should be okay in a small space. That being said, I bought myself a 12x12x12 exo terra. I loaded it up with plants and a nice piece of wood which offers a lot of climbing space without taking up much ground space. Really I just made sure to utilize as much of the space as possible. 

I got my first pair of Imitator Veraderos and I'm obsessed with them. 

I also recommend getting started on culturing fruit flies way before getting the first frogs. It took me a little while to grasp the concept. 

Oh yea, you can check out my frogs and tank here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...irst-darts-their-re-constructed-vivarium.html

Good luck.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Galgo said:


> Hello again guys.
> 
> So... I went to visit a friend of mine who apparently grow and breed Dart frogs locally.
> After watching these little gems in real world and have better understanding of what it takes to grow them - I'm ready to commit to my first venture.
> ...


Really for a pair any of those would work ok, even a horizontal 10gal IMO (but vert is the more accepted practice)...for 3 though I'd do the 17 or 19...assuming those are high tanks, like our version of a 15 or 18tall...and not something like a 20long they'd have enough height in their regular position so you wouldn't need a special front opening door if they are a standard aquarium, just a regular glass top or hood would likely work.

I second Regalia's suggestion of getting some practice culturing ff's before getting frogs btw.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

That sized tank is perfect for a couple froglets. I basically keep froglets in 5 gallon glass tanks. I don't like rubbermaids if I have to open the box to see the frogs. I like to view the little guys as they grow!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thumbnails have been my passion for years. I have kept and bred more than a few. Personally, for the vents you want to go with, I would choose the medium size 2 that you listed. Purchasing a new exo terra would only get you an extra inch or so of height and you would sacrifice width to do it. Plus, you can use the money you save on a few extra plants or some nice ghost wood to climb on.

I have to bring this up. You mentioned wanting a water feature. In my opinion, water features waste valuable real estate. More important than that, however, is that thumbs can drown in very little water. I once lost an imitator to drowning in a pool only about 1/4 inch deep. I would not put a water feature in with any of my thumbnails. A drip wall would be OK as there is no standing water. Consider that the Vents that you want live up in the trees in bromeliads. Consider instead focusing on that aspect instead of the water feature which would actually be so far below them. Get some nice cork bark and emulate a thick tree trunk. Use some ghost wood for the branches and attach various bromeliads and other epiphytes to the ghost wood and cork bark. Some nice vines intertwining the branches. Walla! Just like home!

Now about a group size. The vent is a good choice for a group frog and will be happy with several, whereas many thumbs would prefer to be in pair. Buying 2 froglets will give you only a 50% chance of getting a breeding pair. 3 froglets will up those odds to 75%. A group of four gets you an 88% chance and 5 gets you 94% chance. Personally, when buying froglets, I like to purchase 4. I have never purchased a group of 4 and been left with all one sex. I have purchased 3 and been stuck with non-breeders.

Last thing...Details man!! What specific morph of vent are you looking at? Is it Todd Kelly's red amazonicus? I had the honor of being one of the first to be able to work with that beautiful frog! They breed like little bunnies if you treat em right! That means plenty of chocolates and flowers...maybe a little Barry White.
Doug


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Thumbnails have been my passion for years. I have kept and bred more than a few. Personally, for the vents you want to go with, I would choose the medium size 2 that you listed. Purchasing a new exo terra would only get you an extra inch or so of height and you would sacrifice width to do it. Plus, you can use the money you save on a few extra plants or some nice ghost wood to climb on.
> 
> I have to bring this up. You mentioned wanting a water feature. In my opinion, water features waste valuable real estate. More important than that, however, is that thumbs can drown in very little water. I once lost an imitator to drowning in a pool only about 1/4 inch deep. I would not put a water feature in with any of my thumbnails. A drip wall would be OK as there is no standing water. Consider that the Vents that you want live up in the trees in bromeliads. Consider instead focusing on that aspect instead of the water feature which would actually be so far below them. Get some nice cork bark and emulate a thick tree trunk. Use some ghost wood for the branches and attach various bromeliads and other epiphytes to the ghost wood and cork bark. Some nice vines intertwining the branches. Walla! Just like home!
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the tips !!!

I intend to optimize this habitat for the Thumbs - so no deep water feature...
Would a small waterfall be o.k. ? (perhaps a slow cascade between nut shells ?)
A dripping wall is something I thought about - can cocco panels hold it or shall I go with something like tree fern/cork bark etc.?

I already have pieces of ghost wood / cork bark and other natural materials laying around from previous builds I've done - so no problem here...

How about recommended substrate for these frogs?

Thank you again,
Gal


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## asialk (Oct 29, 2009)

Hi gal,
Great thread. For a first viv with darts (Especially thumbnails) I'd go with something comfortable to work with. As a first viv I'm guessing you will constantly mess with it and its much easier to work with a front door viv. Keep in mind these guys are fast as lightning and can escape very easily to the untrained keeper if the whole top is open. 
I'm sure you will find use for those tanks you have in the future..

My two cents.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

A slow waterfall as in, running slowly enough that it won't sweep a newly morphed froglet over the edge? I gather that seeing some "in Viv", natural reproduction is something you were going for? That would be ok if the waterfall simply dissapears...seeping quickly into the rocks/gravel below it. So that there is no pond at the bottom. I don't think that Cocco panel would stand the test of time if constantly saturated, as a drip wall would be. I think tree fern would leave you wanting more...the water would tend to disappear inside the very porous structure, instead of trickling down the surface of the wall. I think cork bark would have no problem handling the constant moisture and would interesting texture and add neat travel patterns to the water. The other material that comes to mind is a clay background or clay and corkbark combination. Time to use that search function and study up on clay backgrounds and kitty litter clay backgrounds. I have been studying up on them and they sound exciting and cheap! I am about to do my first four clay backgrounds this week.

Remember that short of an autoclave, you cannot completely sterilize your old ghost wood and cork bark. Still, I have to admit to reusing these materials myself. I boiled mine for about 30 minutes. Other people suggest saturating them for 24 hours then baking them. And still others suggest bleaching them. Or a combo of these things.

Substrate...the million dollar question! In the past I have been very happy with ABG mix. You can google the recipe or use the search function. You can also purchase it premixed from Josh's Frogs. You can study this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html This thread will drive you crazy with the amount of info contained within it. I am also making my first clay substrates this week. I am also experimenting with a carbon/hardwood charcoal substrate. It has 1.5 inches of 1/8 to 1/2 inch carbon/charcoal chunks with about 1 inch of sphagnum fibre (not milled) over the top. My theory here is that the charcoal will last basically forever and will be an excellent material for springtail growth. I also set up an experimental substrate of charcoal and coconut bark (little 1/2 inch chunks of coco husk) I scoop out a handful and replace it with ABG mix wherever I am putting a plant. Then, over the whole thing, about 2 inches of leaf litter. This is in a Cayo Nancy Pumilio tank. The goal here is again for springtail and isopod growth. The springtails and isopods will be crucial to the in Viv developement of your future froglets.

Still waiting for a specific morph of Vent/amazonicus you are thinking about. Got any pics of your friends?


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I agree with a majority of what he said. You don't necessarily need ghost wood per se, but it's pretty nice stuff. Can run a little expensive. I'll pm you a link to a cheap place online to get it. Manzanita, mopani, and malaysian driftwood are also great choices. Basically you want a non-aromatic hard wood that can stand up to the constant moisture without falling apart after a year or two.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

fleshfrombone said:


> I agree with a majority of what he said. You don't necessarily need ghost wood per se, but it's pretty nice stuff. Can run a little expensive. I'll pm you a link to a cheap place online to get it. Manzanita, mopani, and malaysian driftwood are also great choices. Basically you want a non-aromatic hard wood that can stand up to the constant moisture without falling apart after a year or two.


True, those are all excellent choices for wood features. Ghost wood just happens to be my favorite. It helps that I found a HUGE box of ghost wood at an aquarium supply store, years ago. They had been sitting on it for years and didn't really even know what it was. Offered me the whole box for $30!! It was enough for me to outfit over 30 Vivs!!

This is probably the same link that Fleshfrombone gave you, but just in case, here is the place I'm getting mine from now that my box is gone. 
Branches - Natural
Doug


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Yeah same link. The reason I pm'd it was last time I suggested a user get their wood from that resource I was given a slap on the wrist for not supporting sponsors or some such nonsense. It should be noted that ghostwood has the odd habit of randomly sprouting mosses and ferns. It also looks really nice.

A whole box for $30 is an incredible find. A local place has a huge box of tree fern panels but they want something like $9/lb. They swear up and down it's cork bark.....


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

fleshfrombone said:


> Yeah same link. The reason I pm'd it was last time I suggested a user get their wood from that resource I was given a slap on the wrist for not supporting sponsors or some such nonsense. It should be noted that ghostwood has the odd habit of randomly sprouting mosses and ferns. It also looks really nice.
> 
> A whole box for $30 is an incredible find. A local place has a huge box of tree fern panels but they want something like $9/lb. They swear up and down it's cork bark.....


Yeah it was. Wish I could find another! My apologies to our sponsers, I was unaware that any of them even offer ghostwood
Doug


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

Hello again everyone 
I don't think "importing" a crate of ghost wood will be needed, I'll look around to see if there's anything interesting locally or at my aquarium wood "bin"...
Anyhow - I went to a professorial tank builder today and found out that it's pretty cheap to get a new tank built to my spec. at this size range - So I think I'll order one at 35X35X50cm (14X14X20").
I Intend to open a new post for the design and future details - but before that - just one question for now - Is it really that dangerous having a front "pond" of slowly moving water about 15cm deep?
I'm really into building a "paludarium" style habitat (with small underwater creatures- but don't want to harm the frogs.

would using a lot of branches/rocks popping out of the water, a gentle slop and keeping the area of the exposed water <20-25% of the bottom area help?
I can use a lot of suitable vegetation and "vertical" decoration to maximize the "dry" surfaces.

I still don't know the specific morph of Vent/amazonicus. I'll get - highly dependent on availability and still a long way to go until than - my friends jewels are presented here (I keep my fingers crossed for him to have many little froglets soon...  )
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/59689-my-ranitomeya-amazonica.html

Gal


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## Galgo (Sep 5, 2008)

Would really use your insights on the matter ...

I increased the tank size a little bit to 40X40X60cm (15.7X15.7X23.6") ~25g
It'll be used to house a small breeding group (3-4!?) of Vents and to simulate a piece of "tropical heaven" in my living room 

I'm really into including a small front water feature - perhaps with few shrimps etc...
Obviously I'll try to include every "safety" measure such as a gentle slop, many objects to climb on from the water etc. to prevent accidental drowning of any frog.
I also intend to increase the "dry" surfaces by including many vertical/3D structures the frogs can climb and hide inside...

So, how serious really is the risk?
I don't want to harm the frogs, especially when getting them is so hard in here...

I'll creat a new post shortly regarding the design and building of this habitat - but since I ordered the tank already - I have limited time to add options like draining holes etc...

Please advice,
Gal


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think that as long as they can get out, it should be fine. And as long as they don't look like fish food.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I assume you are wanting someone else's input here as I already answered this one before. The chance of a drowning may be rare, but my dead imitator reminds you that it happens. Whether or not you choose to take that risk anyway, is totally up to you.


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