# Are frogs selling?



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

I can't help but to notice there aren't many SOLD posts in the classifieds. Are people just not buying frogs or are the ads just not being closed out by the seller?


----------



## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Feel free to buy some


----------



## chillfargochill (Jun 11, 2014)

I just picked up three. I've also had my eye on a couple more when they are in the budget.I live in a dart frog dessert and would be frogless if not for the classifieds and sponsors! In my case today the member still had more available and may not update his post.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Short answer, no, in general dart frogs are not selling. At least not at the prices they deserve to be sold at.


----------



## zonz540 (Feb 8, 2012)

Seems like it is mostly pums and thumbs at the moment. I see a good number of the higher priced obligates and thumbs going within a week or so of posting. This could relate to Dane's post, since the prices are pretty decent right now, especially for obligates.
My tincs (Azureus), however are still munching away at my flies eagerly after having been posted for a couple of weeks. Looks like the mainstream frogs are slow right now (Leucs, Tincs, Epips, etc...).


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Dane said:


> Short answer, no, in general dart frogs are not selling. At least not at the prices they deserve to be sold at.


Agreed. Lots of inquiries but not many sales.


----------



## toadlicker00 (Feb 14, 2013)

I have much better luck with trading frogs than I do selling them.


----------



## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

Its summer, the priorities are everywhere else, other than the frog room. However now is when you get some great rare stuff, because everyone is focused on other outside activities.


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I think the hobby sales as a whole are slow not just on the boards. I have heard show sales are really slow too even before summer....

I have bought a few but frogs is what I do to relax so they are always in season if I have the coin....


----------



## tarbo96 (Jan 12, 2006)

I am having a hard time selling frogs, both pumilio and others.


----------



## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

it's definitely a "buyers" market right now. Vanzos for $35? Bastis for $70? If people wanted to get incredible deals, nows the time.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

I just bought 4 orange terribs a while ago and showed up this week.
You are right about a buyers market. There was no way I could pass up the deal. Now I just have to come up with a little more cash and get in on this other great deal that was offered me.


----------



## JoshuaB (Jun 29, 2014)

I also just recieved a pair of P. terribilis from the east coast... I'd guess that the sellers are not closing them out, or just haven't gotten to it yet.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

We've kinda touched on this in a few other threads... improved husbandry in the last few years has definitely increased breeding success. 

You've been doing this for a while Ali, remember methylene blue? who uses that anymore? nobody. Vit A eliminated "moldy eggs" issue. Those previously moldy eggs are now turning into tadpoles and frogs. SLS? thing of the past with proper supplementation too. That stuff (especially with amazonica/ventrimaculata that breed like rats) could be responsible for the increase in available frogs.

More success breeding has driven availability way up... and prices are slow to come down to meet the real market value, so frogs don't sell. 

Ed has also made some good points about the desire to "prove" good husbandry through successful breeding. Everyone wants to breed breed breed. We need more people that just want to enjoy their frogs and keep them long term (10+ years). Honestly, I have stopped pulling eggs from most of my frogs unless I have someone specifically telling me they want them. I just pull the ones that morph out in the tank and sell them. Reduces breeding stress on the parents since they aren't cranking out eggs constantly and reduces selling stress on me! Plus, its fun to see the non-obligate egg feeders doing their thing on their own.

Also, just to be clear... The moderators will only close an ad if the OP comes on and says _all_ the items have been sold (and we actually read/see the post). I'd bet there are a decent amount of ads on the forum that are sold and just haven't been labelled as such. So, that could be part of what you are seeing too.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

It's a buyer's market, yes. The economy is still in the dumps a little bit and I'm sure that has something to do with it. But something that's become really apparent (to me at least) is that, more than seeming ever before (at least in all my times on the boards) people are into what's new. It's always been that way, but not like this. Even newcomers are getting caught up in what they can get that no one else has. I've seen a lot of the frogs that are in the hobby suffer in terms of their ability to sell, but it seems like the new imports that are coming in are getting snatched up.

We all know that there's an ebb and flow in the PDF market. It's cyclical. There's always a new type of frog that is getting hyped up. In 2010 people were all about the Ranitomeya. Now it's all about the obligates. And with the potential of getting legal hitrionicus and sylvaticus from TESOROS and the like, there seems to be added emphasis (from what I've seen) on the large obligates like there never has been before.

All that said, I suspect that in a few years, when only the people who were truly passionate about Ranitomeya are still keeping them, there will be a resurgent desire for them because they'll be rare again. Then you'll see them flying off the shelves so to speak.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

I use methylene blue all the time. My sirensis 'highlands' always lay bad eggs.


----------



## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

MD_Frogger said:


> I can't help but to notice there aren't many SOLD posts in the classifieds. Are people just not buying frogs or are the ads just not being closed out by the seller?


I think it's also the time of the year. I don't want to risk shipping my frogs in or out with 100 degree temperatures. I'll wait until September.

Steve


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

whitethumb said:


> I use methylene blue all the time. My sirensis 'highlands' always lay bad eggs.


This would be worth looking into: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...85232-eggs-starting-going-bad.html#post753602

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I honestly think the Ranitomeya market will always be a "niche" market. Stand at a booth at a show... people new to frogs are always nervous about how small they are. Things like Tinctorius/Auratus will sell well though. The Ranitomeya market is largely dictated by the forum/facebook market IMO.


----------



## yeloowtang (May 1, 2014)

I think it's slow in eveything, i'm into snakes too and babies are slow to sell even at stupid low prices..i do get trade offers for all kinds of junk ???

as for frogs, unfortunately, i'm in Canada, there's lots of rogs here for sale i would love to get but it's nearly imposible.
si in the meanwhile, i have two planted vivs waiting for new habitants..

my triclors keep breeding and we just got our first 4 come out of the water  and 18 more tads getting there too !!!!

wish the U.S Canada free trade thing was real


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

carola1155 said:


> This would be worth looking into: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...85232-eggs-starting-going-bad.html#post753602
> 
> Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I honestly think the Ranitomeya market will always be a "niche" market. Stand at a booth at a show... people new to frogs are always nervous about how small they are. Things like Tinctorius/Auratus will sell well though. The Ranitomeya market is largely dictated by the forum/facebook market IMO.


I agree to an extent. A n00b will be nervous at how small ranitomeya are. But at the same time, a lot of them aren't much smaller than pumilio (sure some of them like your reticulata are, but benedicta, summersi, some of the larger imitators, etc will give most pumilio a run for their money). But you should have seen the posts four years ago. Everyone was posting their pictures of Ranitomeya, asking who has Ranitomeya for sale, etc. etc. etc. Now I see almost no posts about Ranitomeya. Tons about obligates, though. I think I even see more Ameerega posts than Ranitomeya posts right now (and you wanna talk about a niche market, let's start talking Ameerega. Personally, I think they're great frogs, but with Chromes being the exceptions, most people don't seem to care about Ameerega). But even back then, people were constantly posting "what's a good thumbnail starter frog" or "am I really going to kill a thumb if I don't have experience with bigger frogs first," and my PM box was filled with n00bies asking for suggestions on how to set up tanks for thumbs and if I had thumbs for sale. Now, it's not just that newer folks aren't interested in Ranitomeya anymore, but even a lot of the "experts" aren't posting nearly as much about thumbs. It'll happen, though. It always comes back around....


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks for the link but it only talks about poor supplementation. Not sure how this applies to me



carola1155 said:


> This would be worth looking into: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...arting-going-bad.html#post753602[/url[/quote]


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

whitethumb said:


> I use methylene blue all the time. My sirensis 'highlands' always lay bad eggs.


It's a relatively common occurrence for young adult highland sirensis to produce bad eggs for a substantial period of time. Most who have bred these for many years say it can take up to two years for these to "get it right". That, coupled with the genetic bottleneck of this species in the hobby (and now possibly in the wild as well), is likely why eggs are going bad.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

whitethumb said:


> Thanks for the link but it only talks about poor supplementation. Not sure how this applies to me


Sorry I wasn't exactly clear... but the point I was trying to get across was more along the lines that there are probably issues with the adults (be it nutrition, or something else) more than the eggs. Using methylene blue is a bandaid, not a solution. It helps eggs that likely wouldn't have survived otherwise, which may not necessarily be a good thing.

Also, how would you know that it doesn't apply to you? you could be using a "proper regimen" and your frogs still not necessarily getting what they need. Especially if you start letting them breed at a young age.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

No need for an explanation... Your point was pretty clear the 1st time. I specifically put highlands in my statement for a reason. Anyone who's bred them knows they give bad eggs for a long time. Sadly not even the methylene blue works at this point. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the thread. 



carola1155 said:


> Sorry I wasn't exactly clear... but the point I was trying to get across was more along the lines that there are probably issues with the adults (be it nutrition, or something else) more than the eggs. Using methylene blue is a bandaid, not a solution. It helps eggs that likely wouldn't have survived otherwise, which may not necessarily be a good thing.


----------



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

carola1155 said:


> More success breeding has driven availability way up... and prices are slow to come down to meet the real market value, so frogs don't sell.
> 
> Ed has also made some good points about the desire to "prove" good husbandry through successful breeding. Everyone wants to breed breed breed. We need more people that just want to enjoy their frogs and keep them long term (10+ years).


This makes complete sense. Now that you brought it up I can't remember the last time I saw an SLS thread. 

So with the saturation of the market being the way it is, why is it that these importers(SR being most prominent) continue to bring in frogs already in the hobby in by the boat load. It would seem that would not be the prudent thing to do and the antithesis of being good stewards.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

MD_Frogger said:


> So with the saturation of the market being the way it is, why is it that these importers(SR being most prominent) continue to bring in frogs already in the hobby in by the boat load. It would seem that would not be the prudent thing to do and the antithesis of being good stewards.


That sir... is the million dollar question...


----------



## tarbo96 (Jan 12, 2006)

Right or wrong it has been explained to me by an importer that with limited number of rare frogs exporters need to include more common frogs to make their money. Importers then must buy the common frogs to get the other frogs people do purchase.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

It could also be success with obligates finally making them a realistic choice for beginners or people who have been in for a little while. It is interesting to look in older threads at experienced hobbyists struggling(well, they frequently still do) to rear baby pumilio. But with advances in our knowledge mainly of nutrition and also in culturing live foods things seem to have really improved. It seems that success with them has driven the interest way up where they used to be ignored and classed as "just for experts". Part of the reason I chose to get a pair of pumilio was reports that the adults were actually fairly tough frogs (really good for people who's homes run warmer IMO)-and so far my experience has confirmed this. Also the fact that prices/trade value has fallen enough for me to consider them.

Also, generally speaking their are very few people who are actually on the market for frogs at any given time. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Hopefully people have a few tanks, get a few frogs, and keep them long term. Constant buying and selling tells the story of collections always in motion, and as far as disease transmission, and stability of species in the hobby, that isn't really a good thing. Thankfully for those with frogs to move new hobbyists will always need frogs-I have had no issues with local sales-a lot easier to move than reptiles actually! 

I love Ranitomeya but just don't have a tank to dedicate to them. If I ever do run a third tank they'd be a top priority. Maybe vanzos, some sort of imitator, variabilis, or FG amazonica...


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

One consideration for the topic at hand is if frog-for-sale ads were always closed out then there would be more evidence about the market strength. Which , if strong, would entice more people to breed frogs and thus increase competition. For this reason a breeder may be less inclined to provide that info unless there are repeated inquiries for the sold frog. 

I agree that supply is high due to imports and advancements in propagation techniques, but I also think that more frogs may be being sold than we would otherwise be lead to believe.


----------



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

carola1155 said:


> That sir... is the million dollar question...



Greed is a terrible thing


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I may be new to Dendrobatids, however my opinions remain the same. Our responsibility is, as explained by Joseph Laszlo, to continue captive propagation of species in peril. We are the one's who can make a difference. What's stopping us?


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

aspidites73 said:


> I may be new to Dendrobatids, however my opinions remain the same. Our responsibility is, as explained by Joseph Laszlo, to continue captive propagation of species in peril. We are the one's who can make a difference. What's stopping us?


Thanks for the inspiration...now put the tires to the road and breed atelopus.


----------



## Frog Town (Oct 8, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> I may be new to Dendrobatids, however my opinions remain the same. Our responsibility is, as explained by Joseph Laszlo, to continue captive propagation of species in peril. We are the one's who can make a difference. What's stopping us?


When I first started about four years ago I remember people were referring to R. imitator "Varadero" as Jeberos. Thumbnails are now all over the place for sale and at really good prices and it seems in the last six months the availability of Pumilio has gone up and their prices have come down considerably.

I've also noticed on a few other forums that beginners are wanting proven, mated pairs before they even have experience raising them up from froglets. They are even complaining about the high cost of proven pairs from experienced reputable breeders.

I feel the same way as aspidites73. Dart frogs are different from all other species of animals in the pet trade except for maybe a few others. I've always felt that dart froggers will end up being the people who keep the species alive after everything has been destroyed in their natural environment.

I came across this today. It is very disturbing...

'Massacre' of uncontacted tribe in Peru revealed in new reports -- Society's Child -- Sott.net


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> I may be new to Dendrobatids, however my opinions remain the same. Our responsibility is, as explained by Joseph Laszlo, to continue captive propagation of species in peril. We are the one's who can make a difference. What's stopping us?


 Why? So we can marvel at them in glass boxes? What purpose would it serve? Are there species beyond a handful that have been reintroduced into the wild after becoming extinct or close to extinct in the wild?


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Frog Town said:


> When I first started about four years ago I remember people were referring to R. imitator "Varadero" as Jeberos.


 That's what they are called in Europe. 



Frog Town said:


> Thumbnails are now all over the place for sale and at really good prices


 Sure and you can expect the price to continue slowly downwards. They come to breeding age quickly and along with Repashy supplements, they are easy to care for and breed.

People right now are overreacting to seasonal swings. Lots of frogs that came OOW in the early Spring are starting to come on the market. In the meantime, as it has already been pointed out, we are in a season that people are enjoying the great outdoors. In general. prices will down go down later in the year when people start staying inside more and there are less tads coming OOW.

LOWERING OF FROG PRICES IS GOOD FOR THE HOBBY.  The only people it aggravates is those who have frogs to sell. Cheaper frogs means an easier point of entry for young people or for those who already struggle to pay the bills. We want to grow the hobby, not shrink it.


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

ecichlid said:


> That's what they are called in Europe.
> 
> LOWERING OF FROG PRICES IS GOOD FOR THE HOBBY.  The only people it aggravates is those who have frogs to sell. Cheaper frogs means an easier point of entry for young people or for those who already struggle to pay the bills. We want to grow the hobby, not shrink it.


It would be nice if the prices were lowered enough to actually impede or render infeasible large scale WC imports, other than necessary to provide genetic diversity. On the other hand this price drop would also affect the "frog farms" that sustainably harvest frogs for the hobby and for conservation. However many of the frog farm legal imports of new species provide cover for illegal imports, vis a vi sylvatica and potentially histrionicus.


----------



## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> I may be new to Dendrobatids, however my opinions remain the same. Our responsibility is, as explained by Joseph Laszlo, to continue captive propagation of species in peril. We are the one's who can make a difference. What's stopping us?


One thing you have to remember is that the frogs we keep in our hobby collections are never suitable for reintroduction to the wild. Only frogs carefully maintained in a WAZA SSP or similar studbook would ever be considered for reintroduction.

It is our job as hobbiests to maintain our captive populations soley to alleviate WC stress on wild populations. We can and should contribute to wild conservation I'm other ways, like supporting Tesoros and similar organizations.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dev30ils said:


> It is our job as hobbiests to maintain our captive populations soley to alleviate WC stress on wild populations. We can and should contribute to wild conservation I'm other ways, like supporting Tesoros and similar organizations.


Captive breeding doesn't really reduce pressure on wild populations until the price it costs to produce and sell the animal is the same as the cost it takes to get the animal from the wild. 

In addition, perception in the hobby can also drive the desire for wild caught frogs versus those that are captive bred.. for example perceptions that wild caught frogs are superior to captive bred frogs because they are brighter/larger are a problem. 
As a consequence if the hobby really wants to help with the wild populations then they should 
1) donate to conservation programs that show a good track record on research and/or conservation programs. 
2) support sustainable harvest programs that have shown the studies to indicate that it is a sustainable program
3) support programs that support on the ground programs like WIKIRI etc. 

For those who want to read a little more indepth, then I suggest 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...ive-bred-conservation-efforts.html#post576511
and 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...ive-bred-conservation-efforts.html#post586940

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> People right now are overreacting to seasonal swings. Lots of frogs that came OOW in the early Spring are starting to come on the market. In the meantime, as it has already been pointed out, we are in a season that people are enjoying the great outdoors. In general. prices will down go down later in the year when people start staying inside more and there are less tads coming OOW.


My earlier statement wasn't based on a "seasonal swing", it is based on my observations while vending and attending dozens of reptile and frog shows over the past 10 years, as well as watching sales trends here and on other online avenues . The slowdown seemed to have started about 1.5-2 years ago. Prior to that, the frog market hadn't quite reached the saturation it has of late.
But as was stated earlier, everything is cyclical in the exotics arena. I've been seeing more "collection sale" ads recently, and this is likely to continue until the amount of available CB animals declines again, and prices go back up. 
In the meantime, the people who have always kept frogs purely for the enjoyment and love of the animals will continue to do so, whether or not there is money in it.



ecichlid said:


> LOWERING OF FROG PRICES IS GOOD FOR THE HOBBY. The only people it aggravates is those who have frogs to sell. Cheaper frogs means an easier point of entry for young people or for those who already struggle to pay the bills. We want to grow the hobby, not shrink it.


I don't think that is a good blanket statement to make. With current prices for "common" frogs being at or below what I would normally consider wholesale, people who have older collections and good quality breeding stock have no incentive to keep their animals producing. Why do all the "right" things in an attempt to add good genes to the hobby when Joe Blow is going to undercut you with frogs that are younger, smaller, lower quality, or of questionable origin? Newbies are going to go after low prices above all. 
It's not a matter of pride or greed, but there has to be some compensation for the time and effort it takes to rear lots of little mouths over the 4-6 months required to bring tadpoles to well-started froglets.

Additionally, the cheaper an animal is, the more disposable it becomes.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I never suggested they could/would/should be introduced back in the wild.



Dev30ils said:


> One thing you have to remember is that the frogs we keep in our hobby collections are never suitable for reintroduction to the wild. Only frogs carefully maintained in a WAZA SSP or similar studbook would ever be considered for reintroduction.
> 
> It is our job as hobbiests to maintain our captive populations soley to alleviate WC stress on wild populations. We can and should contribute to wild conservation I'm other ways, like supporting Tesoros and similar organizations.



AND




ecichlid said:


> Why? So we can marvel at them in glass boxes? What purpose would it serve? Are there species beyond a handful that have been reintroduced into the wild after becoming extinct or close to extinct in the wild?





oldlady25715 said:


> Thanks for the inspiration...now put the tires to the road and breed atelopus.


What reason would you have to believe i'm not breeding Atelopus?


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Based on your statement that you are relatively new to dendrobatidae. I would find it surprising if Someone had enough skill to successfully breed atelopus then decide to get into dart frogs. I would however love to see you prove me wrong and produce these frogs.


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

The hobby has hit surplus levels close to flooded market similarity of ball pythons. It very well may be flooded. I don't see the economy playing role as I see froggers spending their money on non-dart frog amphibians. I don't see it as a surprise that many dart frogs are not selling and you are seeing more hobbyist and breeders working with other species of amphibians.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

oldlady25715 said:


> Based on your statement that you are relatively new to dendrobatidae. I would find it surprising if Someone had enough skill to successfully breed atelopus then decide to get into dart frogs. I would however love to see you prove me wrong and produce these frogs.


Must I do Atelopus, or may I contribute to conservation in a different way? That was my point. It seemed to me you were suggesting that my post was inspirational but I don't do anything about it so I should breed Atelopus.


----------



## Reptileman (Oct 15, 2008)

MD_Frogger said:


> This makes complete sense. Now that you brought it up I can't remember the last time I saw an SLS thread.
> 
> So with the saturation of the market being the way it is, why is it that these importers(SR being most prominent) continue to bring in frogs already in the hobby in by the boat load. It would seem that would not be the prudent thing to do and the antithesis of being good stewards.


It's been a while since I've gone lurking on Dendroboard, but this topic caught my eye. 

I can't speak for the importer/wholesaler, but in the reef fish world, if a retailer wants a particular rare fish they have to buy boxes of common fish to get a single rare fish. Even if they didn't want/need the common type fish. So.. really they aren't being good stewards, they are trying to move "inventory".


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> The hobby has hit surplus levels close to flooded market similarity of ball pythons. It very well may be flooded. I don't see the economy playing role as I see froggers spending their money on non-dart frog amphibians. I don't see it as a surprise that many dart frogs are not selling and you are seeing more hobbyist and breeders working with other species of amphibians.


This is in part due to selling to what is a pretty closed market. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Dane said:


> Additionally, the cheaper an animal is, the more disposable it becomes.


Took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## Exasperatus2002 (Jan 21, 2014)

For me it's all about the coin. I'm liking some of the prices recently. Hoping they stay low for awhile. My wife is letting me convert a 55 gallon from fish to split terrarium. Leucs for her. Then my problem...making up my own mind. I've had dwarf cobalts and blue sips in the past but you don't see them around any more. Then there's the thumb nails which I also love. I'd actually like to buy tadpoles to grow out myself. But finding them in what you want is hard. One I want is easy, banded Leucs. But Ranitomeya tads, I don't see often, other then for blue leg vents.

The other side of the coin is simple. What to do when you have a common species and they're breeding? Gotta rehome the babies. Should you take the risk of keeping common stuff when it's harder to get rid of the kids because everyone's had them (like kittens) or keep them while they're out of fad and wait until the fad comes full circle and people start looking for them again.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

MD_Frogger said:


> So with the saturation of the market being the way it is, why is it that these importers(SR being most prominent) continue to bring in frogs already in the hobby in by the boat load. It would seem that would not be the prudent thing to do and the antithesis of being good stewards.


Business is business, they continue being the exclusive importer of the O. pumilio. They also export them to Europe. I am curious to know how the European market is doing. I know Asia is growing in herps in general.


----------



## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

In Europe we have some wave-like movements atm.


for some years Pumilio were quite popular, now it seems to shift away from them with may breeders not being able to sell their offspring.

this is also of course because of lots of FB/WC coming in from the importeurs.



Asia is still growing which is the reason why some people see the big money now in Japan, Taiwan etc.


----------



## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Not sure if this is on subject but I seem to have no problem selling tincs, leucs, ect. Seem to have more trouble selling others like abesios, pums, thumbs ect. I keep and breed the all kinds. 
Don't get me wrong I have some favorite pums I keep but to me they are boring. Add one female and one male wait 3 months and find froglets. boring. I was much more excited finding abesio eggs after trying for 2 yrs. much bigger challenge trying to breed red galacts and rewarding. Even a lot harder breeding some tincs. Took a few years to get my mints breeding. I think the market is flooded with pums that like almost all the same.


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

With pums, it's flavor of the month. When the dust settles, only the most popular morphs will remain.


----------



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

ecichlid said:


> When the dust settles, only the most popular morphs will remain.


I think the more accurate statement would be *if* the dust settles...


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

MD_Frogger said:


> I think the more accurate statement would be *if* the dust settles...


I agree. With other countries opening up and addition of true farming their are new morphs and even species continually entering the hobby.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> With pums, it's flavor of the month. When the dust settles, only the most popular morphs will remain.


There has already been a shift in the last 10 years or so of the imported pumilio that are commonly offered because of the shifts in what is coming into the country. For example, there used to be large numbers of man creek/almirante and "el dorado" offered for sale including F1s. There has been a huge decline in those frogs being offered. Those populations were very popular when they were coming into the country yet their numbers have undergone a significant decline. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

JJuchems said:


> I agree. With other countries opening up and addition of true farming their are new morphs and even species continually entering the hobby.


Ha! Let me assure you, I have seen this movie before and it will come to an end sooner than you think. I saw this with cichlids. Eventually you will see less and less new stuff come in. Then, the new stuff that comes in looks more and more like the stuff that's already here. Soon, the sellers are making exaggerating statements about the smallest differences. Shortly after that, the most experienced buyers of the new stuff start to drop out. Then, the hybrids really start coming out of the woodwork. I mean, in a way that you guys have not seen yet. The hybrids come out when people are thirsting for something new and their isn't anything really new.


----------



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

Ed said:


> There has been a huge decline in those frogs being offered.



Imported in by what seem the thousands, better husbandry has led to more prolific breeding, and poof they are gone? Do they die? Are they allowed to perish? Where do these frogs go?


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

MD_Frogger said:


> Imported in by what seem the thousands, better husbandry has led to more prolific breeding, and poof they are gone? Do they die? Are they allowed to perish? Where do these frogs go?


Who's to say they're being bred in any greater numbers today? Aside from a few ads from a few individuals, I haven't seen all that many CB for sale. As has been said many times before, there is a perception that supply is high because so many are coming in but close Panama and see what happens. Sure, most locales likely won't go the way of histrionica/sylvatica, but I guarantee you that some of them will (look at Rambala). 

Many of the locales that came in limited numbers/highly skewed sex ratios should get into the hands of many experienced keepers to ensure a viable captive population instead of just passing them off to the highest bidder.


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

MD_Frogger said:


> Imported in by what seem the thousands, better husbandry has led to more prolific breeding, and poof they are gone? Do they die? Are they allowed to perish? Where do these frogs go?


It's such a small hobby that it doesn't take much for a handful of froggers and/or an importer to satisfy the market for anything outside of the "bread n' butter" frogs. Do you think more than 1000 people keep pums in all of North America? I'm sure some people think so, but I sure don't.

But yes, frogs die continually and yes for the most part, they are killed by our mistakes and neglect. I'm sure for the number of people you see here who post "Have to sell, all frogs must go!" there are multiples of that who just let their frogs fade away.


----------



## SeaDuck (Nov 8, 2006)

There is one other thing that is happening. I and several others that I know have basically quit encouraging any surplus. We are tired of dealing with the froggers that contact us either out of the blue or from an add they then speak for frogs after many emails, photos and shipping quotes etc only to disappear and never bother to say that they have changed their minds. I do not care if someone changes their mind but this is rude and unfortunately very very common. I am to the point that I dread having to placing an add and my adds have shipping included, photos of the exact frogs and an idea of sex where possible. What is with this behavior? When I started selling surplus a decade ago this was non existent. Robert


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

you have a valid, and uncomfortable, observation. I hope that I have not been guilty of doing that...and if so, apologies. Sometimes the every day stuff gets in the way and manners can be the first to go....


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

SeaDuck said:


> There is one other thing that is happening. I and several others that I know have basically quit encouraging any surplus. We are tired of dealing with the froggers that contact us either out of the blue or from an add they then speak for frogs after many emails, photos and shipping quotes etc only to disappear and never bother to say that they have changed their minds. I do not care if someone changes their mind but this is rude and unfortunately very very common. I am to the point that I dread having to placing an add and my adds have shipping included, photos of the exact frogs and an idea of sex where possible. What is with this behavior? When I started selling surplus a decade ago this was non existent. Robert


This is a whole topic in itself... It is part of the reason we are so strict about extra comments on sale ads. People have left comments saying "PM sent, I'll buy it" and then end up not buying the item. After that, people scrolling along through the ads are thinking "oh well this is sold" and don't bother contacting the seller. It is incredibly inconsiderate. It is getting to the point where we will have to restrict marketplace privileges for repeat offenders.

Also, I've tried being absolutely explicit about everything (including leaving a link to SYR with exact instructions about a 7x7x6 3lb box) to get people to not waste my time asking for a shipping quote/pictures/etc and then never responding again... and they still did it. It's crazy.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> Do you think more than 1000 people keep pums in all of North America? I'm sure some people think so, but I sure don't.


I think your grossly underestimating the market... from the CITES traded data base 



> . From 2004-2007 there actually more than 16,000 pumilio exported from Panama alone for commercial purposes (with more than 22,000 between 2004-2009). In the period of 04-09; 3873 pumilio were exported from the US.


This was discussed in prior threads. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/66270-import-numbers.html#post587754 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

carola1155 said:


> This is a whole topic in itself... It is part of the reason we are so strict about extra comments on sale ads. People have left comments saying "PM sent, I'll buy it" and then end up not buying the item. After that, people scrolling along through the ads are thinking "oh well this is sold" and don't bother contacting the seller. It is incredibly inconsiderate. It is getting to the point where we will have to restrict marketplace privileges for repeat offenders.
> 
> Also, I've tried being absolutely explicit about everything (including leaving a link to SYR with exact instructions about a 7x7x6 3lb box) to get people to not waste my time asking for a shipping quote/pictures/etc and then never responding again... and they still did it. It's crazy.


Yep, it's gotten a bit "craigslisty" lately. I was getting frustrated until I just decided to change my outlook. Now, in my mind, an inquiry is an inquiry and money sent is a sale and the two are only occasionally related. 

...and in answer to the OP, my sales are way down too. I've been doing the same as Carola for about a year now. I stopped pulling eggs for the most part and the stream of froglets has slowed. I've also been holding on to froglets for much longer than in the past and selling much larger frogs for only slightly more money.


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Ed said:


> I think your grossly underestimating the market... from the CITES traded data base


Please tell more. I did look at the link you provided Ed. Does CITES report how many animals were sent to USA and Canada? Also, don't you think the losses as a percentage are enormous?


----------



## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

Hobbies like ours go in cycles. Eventually we'll go back to the phase where the frogs are flying off the shelves at break neck speed. Like a mini-economy.


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

By the way, for anyone getting into the hobby, take note. This is why you get frogs that you enjoy, not as an investment. I may have a lot of common frogs, but during slow times like this I don't care. I sell some, or I don't...I'm still enjoying the hobby as much as ever. If, on the other hand, I had dumped a bunch of money in animals purely as an investment and was relying in selling offspring I wouldn't be having much fun. That kind of grief will strip the joy out of keeping PDFs.


----------



## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

Boondoggle said:


> By the way, for anyone getting into the hobby, take note. This is why you get frogs that you enjoy, not as an investment. I may have a lot of common frogs, but during slow times like this I don't care. I sell some, or I don't...I'm still enjoying the hobby as much as ever. If, on the other hand, I had dumped a bunch of money in animals purely as an investment and was relying in selling offspring I wouldn't be having much fun. That kind of grief will strip the joy out of keeping PDFs.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. For example, I'd like to get some D. tinctorious "azureus". Sure, they're common, but I like them. There are plenty of species on my list, some are common, some aren't. Work with the animals you like, and if you get any offspring then great, maybe you could sell them to help fund your collection. If not, at least you had fun with the animals you like.


----------



## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

InvertaHerp said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with this. For example, I'd like to get some D. tinctorious "azureus". Sure, they're common, but I like them. There are plenty of species on my list, some are common, some aren't. Work with the animals you like, and if you get any offspring then great, maybe you could sell them to help fund your collection. If not, at least you had fun with the animals you like.


I made this mistake a while back.. I ended up selling my collection because I got bored of the frogs. Then after many months of thought and research I decided to give it another shot, I've had a group of some imitator 'chazuta' for a while and just purchased some of the two most common frogs, azureus and leucs. 

The point stands the same, love your animals for the sake of loving them, not to make a profit. Trust us!

Nick


----------



## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

I don't know about selling, but I will be in the market looking to buy in the next couple weeks. I have one vert that is nearly finished and another waiting. I also have a large horizontal to fill after the verts. 

I have pretty much stopped helping any of my frogs breed by pulling eggs or anything like that. All of my tanks are display tanks, and they are pets primarily for me. I wouldn't mind if my escudo raised their tads, but I have a hard time seeing what's going on since someone thought it would be a good idea to plant a begonia staudtii in front of everything.... 

My orange bicolors do a pretty good job of producing frogs completely on their own. I have 5 or 6, 8-12 month old frogs that need to find new homes pretty soon. It's hard to keep 15 bicolors fed...


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

carola1155 said:


> This would be worth looking into: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...85232-eggs-starting-going-bad.html#post753602
> 
> Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I honestly think the Ranitomeya market will always be a "niche" market. Stand at a booth at a show... people new to frogs are always nervous about how small they are. Things like Tinctorius/Auratus will sell well though. The Ranitomeya market is largely dictated by the forum/facebook market IMO.


I agree with this. I think the larger/more common species are basically being sold more in person at shows/clubs etc... Oklahoma was a dart frog wasteland when I started but now you can find most of the common stuff at our crappy lil shows. Pums and thumbs seem to still be an online or amongst close and experienced associates phenomenon



carola1155 said:


> That sir... is the million dollar question...


If they can make money it will continue... It's partly on us to try and keep them at it in some kinda responsible/sustainable manner.




tarbo96 said:


> Right or wrong it has been explained to me by an importer that with limited number of rare frogs exporters need to include more common frogs to make their money. Importers then must buy the common frogs to get the other frogs people do purchase.


That was my understanding too, though I think the hobby is actually a lot bigger then many people realize. There is a reason companies are starting to make vivarium products like exoterra and others... We're out there, just many are not on the forums except maybe as lurkers.



Ed said:


> Captive breeding doesn't really reduce pressure on wild populations until the price it costs to produce and sell the animal is the same as the cost it takes to get the animal from the wild.
> 
> In addition, perception in the hobby can also drive the desire for wild caught frogs versus those that are captive bred.. for example perceptions that wild caught frogs are superior to captive bred frogs because they are brighter/larger are a problem.
> As a consequence if the hobby really wants to help with the wild populations then they should
> ...


Agreed, good stuff from Ed as usual 



ecichlid said:


> With pums, it's flavor of the month. When the dust settles, only the most popular morphs will remain.


I agree there are popularity trends, but there are those niche people like me that will buy the bassleri and trivs and other stuff if people can hold on to them long enough for some of the poor ones like me to get some money together  ...Basically I think keep/breed what you like, but be prepared to hold onto it for awhile in some cases. It will sell, it's just a matter of time... and in the mean time maybe give your breeders a rest so they live longer. And I know there is this feeling that cheap frogs are disposable frogs but maybe in the case of some of the less popular species cheap or even free might be the way to go for awhile if we want to see them stick around for decades in the hobby.



Boondoggle said:


> Yep, it's gotten a bit "craigslisty" lately. I was getting frustrated until I just decided to change my outlook. Now, in my mind, an inquiry is an inquiry and money sent is a sale and the two are only occasionally related.
> 
> ...and in answer to the OP, my sales are way down too. I've been doing the same as Carola for about a year now. I stopped pulling eggs for the most part and the stream of froglets has slowed. I've also been holding on to froglets for much longer than in the past and selling much larger frogs for only slightly more money.


I think this is a consequence and in a way proof that the hobby has been growing a lot the last few years. We may be in period of slow down now, but overall I think the facebook/craigslist crowd and the forums no longer being quite the center stage/core of the hobby they were is that proof. But still this is all fairly recent and many people who get started don't stay, or eventually just kinda move offline, and since there has been so much growth/market saturation you are seeing some frogs selling slower and/or cheaper even if the trend overall is growth in the hobby. 



Boondoggle said:


> By the way, for anyone getting into the hobby, take note. This is why you get frogs that you enjoy, not as an investment. I may have a lot of common frogs, but during slow times like this I don't care. I sell some, or I don't...I'm still enjoying the hobby as much as ever. If, on the other hand, I had dumped a bunch of money in animals purely as an investment and was relying in selling offspring I wouldn't be having much fun. That kind of grief will strip the joy out of keeping PDFs.


Absolutely. I've been here for about 10 years, only bred and sold a few frogs. Now the ice storm disaster, periods of unemployment and not making much money had a lot to do with that, but still while I was kinda forced into that philosophy... It is a good one to have 



reptiles12 said:


> I made this mistake a while back.. I ended up selling my collection because I got bored of the frogs. Then after many months of thought and research I decided to give it another shot, I've had a group of some imitator 'chazuta' for a while and just purchased some of the two most common frogs, azureus and leucs.
> 
> The point stands the same, love your animals for the sake of loving them, not to make a profit. Trust us!
> 
> Nick


I've gone through many cycles of vivs getting overgrown, needing remodel, not building new vivs, etc..etc... A lot of it has to do with how much money and time I have at any given point, but like most things there is an ebb and a flow... don't bail completely at the first urge unless you just aren't taking care of your animals. My vivs may have gotten overgrown, but the frogs got fed.
--------------------

*Last comment on all this...*

I think Now and in the coming years who you are (MORE THEN EVER) is going to make a big difference in how successful you are in this hobby commercially OR even just helping to pay for your hobby, especially when it comes to selling more common species. 

What I mean by that is this... (And not to toot my own horn, but...) I feel like if I offered some Azureus or luecs or whatever up for sale, I've probably got at least a lil better shot of selling them faster and for a better price then Joe blow someone has never heard of. Some of the people who've commented in this thread that have experienced a slow down of sales, may have been even worse off if they hadn't been who they were and had the rep they do (So good on them!) 

Oh and the fact I haven't been around much lately, and now you guys are getting swarmed with all kinds of posts/threads from me today is a prime example of that whole ebb and flow... Tao of Dendrobates deal I was talkin boutz


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Dave, do you care to elaborate more on this?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> Please tell more. I did look at the link you provided Ed. Does CITES report how many animals were sent to USA and Canada? Also, don't you think the losses as a percentage are enormous?


Yes, you can search by country of import and export on the trade database. The US was a major importer during that period. 

People tend to heavily underestimate the number of animals over time that have been imported into the US... For example, auratus has been pretty consistently imported into the US for more than 25 years yet we don't see this reflected in the hobby or sales. 

Too often people think that all because a frog is available as captive bred it is established in the hobby.. This is not the case, and a good portion of this is directly at the fault of the hobby as frogs become unpopular when the cost drops and people can't sell or give away froglets and people get out of them so they can then get the next new or rare morph (read as expensive morph).... so we see massive losses from the hobby. 
If you like a frog you should be willing to keep it for it's life time not as long as you can simply make money from it... 

The hobby does a lot of talking about conservation but in reality that is all that talking is all that really happens. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Ed said:


> If you like a frog you should be willing to keep it for it's life time not as long as you can simply make money from it...
> Ed


AMEN!!! Totally agree.


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I have been following this thread with interest. Thanks for starting it it MD Frogger. I really don't have anything to add that has not been talked about, other then it is a such a good thread for new people to read and consider before amassing a mega collection. I think everyone that is successful breeding for the first time ..sees dollar signs. It does not work out that way usually.


----------



## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Boondoggle said:


> By the way, for anyone getting into the hobby, take note. This is why you get frogs that you enjoy, not as an investment. I may have a lot of common frogs, but during slow times like this I don't care. I sell some, or I don't...I'm still enjoying the hobby as much as ever. If, on the other hand, I had dumped a bunch of money in animals purely as an investment and was relying in selling offspring I wouldn't be having much fun. That kind of grief will strip the joy out of keeping PDFs.


That's great advice, and it reminds me of what an old timer told me 12 years ago. I was new, just getting into the hobby, and I was saying how I'd get this frog or that frog and then breed them to make money. He laughed at me, and said 'look, this is a fun hobby...I mean it's for fun. If you wanna make money you breed snakes. But if you make anything more than just enough to pay your expenses and bug a few new frogs, you'll be one of the few.' After being pretty successful at breeding over the years, I'd say that advice was pretty accurate.


----------



## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

I think most of those that make serious money out of dart frogs are the importeurs and specialty shops.

These people may also breed and collect dart frogs themselves but most of the money comes in from getting the hot stuff from the importeurs, putting a new price tag onto it, and then keeping it relatively safe and alive until a buyer gets it.


----------



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

Speaking of importers...what happened to the granulifera that was supposed to come in this year? When are these sylvatica and histrionica supposed to be flown up?


----------

