# Failing at growing my vivarium... air flow? misting?



## reaper (Aug 8, 2016)

I built a dart frog vivarium at the beginning of the year with plans of keeping some PDFs (luecomelas). I started with an ExoTerra 18x24x24, built a GS and cork bark background, a DIY LED lighting setup, etc... I ordered false bottom, ABG mix, moss, leaf litter and my plant stock from Josh's Frogs and went to town. I also added "stream/bubbling" water feature with a small submersible pump that I ran for a few months, but ultimately took out because of the noise and difficulty getting it submersed deeply enough to not suck air. For the first few months, growth was really good - the only plant not to make it was a bromeliad that had root rot from the beginning. All of the vining plants/broms/ferns grew well.

Over the past 3-4 months, however, a few of my plants have been dying off and I'm at a loss at this point to figure out what I'm doing wrong. My Pilea nummulariifolia ('Creeping Charlie') seemed to be taking over the viv at first, then all of the leaves began to turn black and drop. For the past few weeks, it's had some steady growth in areas, but any new vines/leaves eventually succumb and die off. I had a decent bunch of Pilea depressa 'Baby Tears' at the beginning, but they have died off as well and a lot of the new foliage appears milky white. I planted a Pilea spruceana 'Friendship Plant' in the foreground, and it has never grown well, always staying very small and periodically dying and returning. It's foliage seems quite pale and fragile.

I mist 1-2 time per day and keep at least an inch of water in the bottom of the viv (well contained to the false bottom). The humidity stays between 80-100% almost all of the time. I have a glass top in place of the screen and over the last 3-4 weeks I've started cracking the door slightly, under the theory that very low air flow is causing an issue, but it hasn't noticeably helped. The soil underneath the sphagnum moss and leaf litter is very damp, almost wet, though there's no standing water touching it from the bottom. There's no off-putting smell. The sphagnum moss in most areas has also turned dark brown to black.

So, I appeal to the Dendroboard community, tell me what I'm failing at here. What's killing my plants? Should I be increasing air flow considerably and misting more often? Misting less often? I think my lighting is appropriate - I have 12W of high-power "daylight" 7000K LEDs that are on for approx. 12 hours per day that should be putting out more than 800 lumens. I have another bank that I can add to double that, if need be, but it just seems ungodly bright with both banks.

Thanks to anyone that's willing to take the time to educate me. I don't want to introduce frogs into this vivarium until I'm confident that everything is thriving and all of the parameters are where they should be. I'm more than happy to answer questions or provide more information.

Here are some pictures of my setup:


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## wikiwakawakawee (Jan 24, 2013)

I cant seem to see the pictures...they just show a never ending loading sign.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

I can't see the pictures either...but going by what you wrote, it seems like not enough light coupled with too much water. If your tank is 24 wide and 24 high, 800 lumens is not going to be enough light. That's even less than the lumens of one 13w Jungle Dawn LED bulb. Our most brightly lit vivs are still just the equivalent of shade outdoors...remember, we're trying to artificially replace sunlight. Get used to it seeming "ungodly bright". Also, many people tend to over-water their vivs. The idea is to replicate forest conditions, but not a swamp. Sounds like you need more ventilation and less misting.


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## reaper (Aug 8, 2016)

Alright, sorry about the pictures. I tried linking to Google Photos and it didn't work out. I'm attaching them this time.

JPP, I think you're absolutely right about it being too much water and possibly too little light. I did a little digging last night (literally and figuratively) and I think the ABG mix is far too wet. I was able to squeeze some water out of small handful. After I added the glass top to up the humidity, I think I was over-misting and the soil became waterlogged over time and never dried out, since there was almost no airflow and the humidity stayed high.

I'm trying to form an understanding of how to water a tropical vivarium like this. Is it accurate to say you should be doing a periodic misting of the surface areas of the viv to keep increased humidity, but not actually dumping lots of water into the substrate itself? Should there be condensation on the glass and moisture on the background most of the time?

I also did some reading around the forum and it seems like the leading opinion is that a layer of sphagnum moss isn't required or desirable. I followed the guides from Josh's Frogs for layering the substrates. The moss definitely seems to be contributing to the soil becoming saturated. I took a lot of it out and have the doors opened right now, trying to dry the soil out some. It doesn't have a bad odor and I haven't seen any mold or fungus growing - hopefully I can get it dried out without having to tear down and replace it all.

As for the lighting, I'll get all of the LEDs back in action. The lumen estimate is pretty "back of the napkin"... right this minute I have 4x3W LED. If I use the second bank, I'll have 12W more, so 24W total. I built the lighting "system" to be exandable, so I could pretty easily double that again or more. How much is too much? We could get stupid and go upwards of 100W if need be, but it'd be like having a small star in my living room. 

Thanks for the help.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The best solution is to add ventilation to the enclosure and remove the excess water in case it is wicking up into the substrate. 
Without adequate ventilation your going to have a really hard time being able to mist the background or epiphytic plants with enough water without water logging the substrate additionally this kind of humidity maxing is going to require you to keep the frogs at a lower temperature as they will not have the option of using evaporative cooling. 

some comments 

Ed


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## reaper (Aug 8, 2016)

Understood, thanks for the advice. I still have the doors open and paper towels wicking away the water in the soil, trying to dry it out some. When I had the glass cut for the top, I left a 3-4 inch strip at the back for running wires and misting hoses (eventually). I had it covered, but removed it this week to increase ventilation. If that's not enough, I could add a small fan pretty easily.

There's not much water left in the bottom (1/2" or less), and the false bottom layer is pretty deep. I'll keep an eye on it.

What's a good humidity range to shoot for? I have decent insight into the humidity over time - my DIY controller logs humidity and temperature remotely so I have a history. With it sealed up before, it was staying > 90% the majority of the time and only occasionally dropping into the 80s if I didn't mist for a while. I can dial it in to a steady level pretty well by adjusting how much of the top is covered.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would suggest shooting for somewhere between 60% to 90%. Low 80% is probably a good area where the frogs will be out a lot (which is not necessarily normal as many show a activity peak in the morning and the afternoon). 

Some comments 

Ed


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