# Help! All my frogs died. Help!



## BennyBben (Jun 7, 2021)

I went to check on my 4 month old froglets (3) in there small 128oz grow-out container and they were all dead. I raised the, from tadpoles that I got in december. This is my first time having frogs and I don't know what happened. I fed them yesterday and they were all doing great (active, eating, no aggression). When I checked on them today, they were all liquified and black globs of dead frog. I feed them fruit flies dusted with repashy calcium+ and they are in a 128 oz plastic container with sphagnum moss, leaf litter, pothos clippings and a coco hut. They have been great until this. Help! Any advice or ideas? They are dendrobates tinctorius "Cobalt Blue" and I got them from @joshsfrogs.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Pictures would be helpful. 
What was the ventilation like?


----------



## BennyBben (Jun 7, 2021)

I don’t have pictures because I threw it out. The ventilation was good because they were thriving for 4 months and it is what was recommended by Joshs Frogs.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

BennyBben said:


> I don’t have pictures because I threw it out. The ventilation was good because they were thriving for 4 months and it is what was recommended by Joshs Frogs.


Without pictures it's going to be difficult for anyone to diagnose what the issue may have been.

I will say that container sounds exceedingly small for 3 froglets. Equates out to 3.6L if my math is right. I keep individual Ranitomeya froglets in bigger containers than that. I don't think it's what caused then to die, but who knows.


----------



## BennyBben (Jun 7, 2021)

I can't get pictures. There was no aggression and they were thriving until today. The only thing I can think of is that I rinsed half of the sphagnum and added a few additional leaves for leaf litter.


----------



## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

In 24 hours they went from live frogs to liquefied black globs?

Off the top of my head, that little container must have been very wet and very soiled for that to happen.


----------



## BennyBben (Jun 7, 2021)

Broseph said:


> In 24 hours they went from live frogs to liquefied black globs?
> 
> Off the top of my head, that little container must have been very wet and very soiled for that to happen.


Correct. It wasn't over-humid. If anything, it was a little too dry. The container may have been slightly small, but there was no aggression and they had been living init for 3-4 months.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Broseph said:


> In 24 hours they went from live frogs to liquefied black globs?
> Off the top of my head, that little container must have been very wet and very soiled for that to happen.


This is exactly what I was thinking as well, and why I asked about ventilation.


----------



## BennyBben (Jun 7, 2021)

I take that back. I just retrieved them to get a picture. One was too liquified to get a good picture but here are the other two.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Pictures of the container would probably be more helpful at this point. 

You didn't take any pictures of the container while they were growing?


----------



## BennyBben (Jun 7, 2021)

Round Container and Lid (128 oz) | Josh's Frogs
Here's a link to the container I had.


----------



## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I find it highly unlikely they went from hopping around and eating to liquid goo in 24 hours.
The only chance that could happen is if you had created an anaerobic environment. Which could only happen if there was no ventilation and just an ungodly amount of frog crap strewn across way too wet substrate. Even then, I think it unlikely they turned to goo in 24 hours.


----------



## BennyBben (Jun 7, 2021)

Well, it happened. I don't understand.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Almost certainly CO2 buildup from frog respiration, decomposition of organics and excess CO2 in houses during the summer (windows closed, houses hold a lot of CO2). 

As mentioned, that's too small a container even for a single thumb froglet (I've tried this size, too). Three 4 month old tincs (well, if you had them for four months, that puts them at more than half a year old at the very least) should be in something about ten gallons, with good ventilation, in my opinion.


----------



## BennyBben (Jun 7, 2021)

Makes sense. The frogs are only about 3 months old since metamorphosis. The cause makes sense, I just don't understand how it was so rapid with no hints.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

BennyBben said:


> Makes sense. The frogs are only about 3 months old since metamorphosis. The cause makes sense, I just don't understand how it was so rapid with no hints.


I'll bet there were hints that you just didn't recognize (not blaming you at all on this)


----------



## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

BennyBben said:


> Makes sense. The frogs are only about 3 months old since metamorphosis. The cause makes sense, I just don't understand how it was so rapid with no hints.


That's the thing that makes no sense. 

To double down on fishingguy, this isn't your fault. You were given terrible advice.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I misinterpreted the age; I missed the part about raising from tads. It doesn't affect my suspicions, though, unless some more evidence about ventilation is available -- you haven't described it at all. We're operating off the link you provided, which shows an unpunched deli cup as far as I can see.

CO2 can kill in a few minutes. Sublethal concentrations are not always detectable by behavior, certainly not in ectothermic animals. An animal always dies rapidly: first it is alive, then it is dead. 

The 'no hints' part is why many of us are such aggravating police about little things like ventilation (and temps, and supplements, and proper sex ratios, and so on). Animals don't tend to give hints before they die -- they're both very good at hiding their suffering, and in any event don't reliably have the sort of simple-to-interpret responses that people and some domestic animals have. 

More info would certainly help people give suggestions as to what happened.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

What happened in the prior 48 before all of the frogs were found dead?

Everything that the frogs incurred? No matter how routine?


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I am wondering if a peak of acute externals combined to cause a mechanical death in your froglets.. 

Chlorine/choramine in sop contact of sphag in a small, poorly ventilated plastic container, along with stagnant air. Choramine impairs red bloodcells capacity to carry oxygen. 

I dont know how to approach discussing this. Ive housed froglets differently with so much more open ventilation and so successfully I was given froglets to raise to Sub Ad.

But no one is really going to study this unfortunately. The best thing is to investigate all relevant aspects.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I would only put 3 froglets in that particular container for transport. Or some very temporary reason.


----------



## DendroJoris (Apr 13, 2021)

Static air, organic buildup, most probably an excess of co2 and a small container that can heat up incredibly fast when standing in bright light. 
Decomposition in this type of environment can turn the frogs into liqiud goo in 24 hours, easily.
The temperature thing, however is important.

Where did you place the container? And what were the temps in your house during that time?


----------



## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

BennyBben said:


> I can't get pictures. There was no aggression and they were thriving until today. The only thing I can think of is that I rinsed half of the sphagnum and added a few additional leaves for leaf litter.


I'm thinking this might be important. How did you rinse the sphag? Do you have city water?


----------



## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I think we know what happened here. Under the instruction of Josh's, he kept his frogs in an oversized deli cup with little-to-no ventilation and more than likely without any springtails. The sphagnum had to be oversaturated and littered with 2-3 months of feces. More than likely they died from a build-up of CO2 or methane. Either way they probably asphyxiated. Although with those conditions we could never rule out some kind of bacterial infection.

I hope the OP doesn't get discouraged. Research the threads here (especially the pinned threads in the beginner section), prepare a proper enclosure and try again.


----------



## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

JasonE said:


> I think we know what happened here. Under the instruction of Josh's, he kept his frogs in an oversized deli cup with little-to-no ventilation [...]


I've seen the video wherein Josh's Frogs recommend raising froglets in those containers. 

I see the logic behind _starting_ a tiny froglet in something like that size-wise, but the obvious issues are ventilation and duration -- those containers are totally inappropriate for anything but extremely short term, transitory use. Personally I think they're next to useless as the cons outweigh the pros.

A lot of Internet sources promote outdated information (inadequate ventilation, too much moisture, the ubiquitous and useless promotion of sphagnum moss) or *incomplete* information -- e.g. duration. 

Internet sources that have gained a lot of traction due to volume in the case of some vendors, inexperienced audience, etc. are the perennial problem. New keepers have no obvious way to vet them.

There are things an experienced keeper would intuit or otherwise pick up that someone brand new will not. At which point do you stop blaming the advice and put some responsibility on the new keeper for due diligence in sifting through all the information out there? I don't actually know, it's a bit of a complicated question.


----------



## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Fahad said:


> I've seen the video wherein Josh's Frogs recommend raising froglets in those containers.
> 
> I see the logic behind _starting_ a tiny froglet in something like that size-wise, but the obvious issues are ventilation and duration -- those containers are totally inappropriate for anything but extremely short term, transitory use. Personally I think they're next to useless as the cons outweigh the pros.


Yes they're completely worthless for keeping a froglet in for any length of time. First the lids are hard to pull off and extremely loud. You're scaring the crap out of the frog every time you feed them. I honestly don't know why you'd use them at all. A 16oz deli cup is perfect for any kind of transport.


----------



## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

Did sunlight hit the container for any amount of time? Did it get to hot or cold?


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

There is no need to leave frogs in small grow out containers that become soiled.

There is a very simple technique to change the frogs out into identical, fresh housing.

I realize they are fast but there are ways of working with that too. As keepers we need skills. The only way to develop them is step over the comfort line.


----------



## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

I've used the 128oz container a few times, but as many have already said, it was for a short period of time and because my 10 gallon growout already had bigger froglets in it and I didn't want the fresh morphs fighting for food. Soon as they catch up in size they're moved to the 10 gallon. Recently had two tinc froglets in it for a month and in just that short period it can get quite soiled.


----------



## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

bssknox said:


> I've used the 128oz container a few times, but as many have already said, it was for a short period of time and because my 10 gallon growout already had bigger froglets in it and I didn't want the fresh morphs fighting for food. Soon as they catch up in size they're moved to the 10 gallon. Recently had two tinc froglets in it for a month and in just that short period it can get quite soiled.


Sterlite bins are just so much easier to get in and out of and to add ventilation to. Plus when you factor shipping I'm willing to bet you're not paying that much more.

Edit: Yeah. Josh's charges $5 for those things so I'm doubling down on this.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Good.


----------



## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

DendroJoris said:


> Static air, organic buildup, most probably an excess of co2 and a small container that can heat up incredibly fast when standing in bright light.
> Decomposition in this type of environment can turn the frogs into liqiud goo in 24 hours, easily.
> The temperature thing, however is important.
> 
> Where did you place the container? And what were the temps in your house during that time?


I think we have lost the required evidence that would allow us to say for sure what happened.. but I do agree that overheating seems likely.


----------



## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

JasonE said:


> Sterlite bins are just so much easier to get in and out of and to add ventilation to. Plus when you factor shipping I'm willing to bet you're not paying that much more.
> 
> Edit: Yeah. Josh's charges $5 for those things so I'm doubling down on this.


Oh for sure a lot easier to get in and out of. Like I said, I don't use very often and I didn't order online. The one I have I got at an expo


----------



## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

An influx of fresh air and moisture in that closed container with old substrate could also trigger composting. Then heat and CO2 outgassing would be the culprit, as in many of the other scenarios. Compost can run to 160° F rather quickly, even faster if it goes suddenly anaerobic (O2 starved). Don't give up and learn not to take Josh's videos too seriously.


----------



## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

My bet would be on chemical contamination of the leaves OP said they added. I really can't see this being co2 buildup.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Waste gases, sulfides, co2, ammonia. I dont think any new little lungs should be breathing. And i do think a compost dynamic could occur.

It doesnt have to be that way. The above posts per the vid things have a really good point.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The thing that gets me is how much humans are unaware of the awareness a subject has of the confines of a container. And of all the internals therein they contact, and experience.

Size doesnt matter. Breadth of 'transport' of even tiny guys matters more than size.

Stagnant air matters. Its more harmful to flourish than "relative humidity" readings. They are next to useless.

Contact moisture, juuuust right. There is no need to stricture exchange.

I know there is a difference in outcome.

I edited this. The locomotive comment was unclear and ugh.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The OP shouldnt feel bad about this.

Heres the Thing: Sellers know that the more inexpensive and easy peesy the environment is, the easier it is to sell more [insert almost any animal here]

It got to the point where I didnt sell any animals at all, they were like 'models' or ambassadors for the environments and the stuff in the environments for the guys and supporting the operation of env.

People would have problems or just admit losing interest, in an animal they have had awhile until they got turned on to The Environment.

Sellers underestimate people wanting to do right by animals.

But you wont really make any money, not like the one shot multi mass sales, or encouraging people who get bored with what they have so they just keep getting more and putting them in uninspired situ. I hope this doesnt sound like a rant. I do come off ugh sometimes but I dont think the OP is responsible, of course they are going to trust the vendor.


----------

