# phoenix worms



## PantMan

Can anyone give me the story with phoenix worms? Are they a good food source for pdf?


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## Omead

Petco near me stopped carrying these so I haven't had a chance to try them myself but I've read that they are a great supplemental feeder high in calcium. They would make a nice treat for your frogs every once in a while but I think they maybe too fattening to feed too often.


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## carbonetc

They've been kind of a pain for me. You'll need to use a feeding station they can't climb out of because otherwise they'll quickly burrow and disappear before the frogs see them. And even if you buy the smallest amount they sell (150 worms) most of the worms will be dead before you could ever feed them all out, unless you have a huge frog collection. In the last container I bought all but maybe ten worms were DOA. I decided they just weren't worth the money anymore.


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## Omead

Too bad soldier flies aren't easy to culture, phoenix worms would be a great natural supplement.


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## Marinarawr

From what I've read they're a great feeder, but a pain to culture. Like carbon said, when you buy them at the pet shop they're mostly dead. I've even opened up containers with the adult soldier flies in them! You can imagine how long they've been just sitting on the shelves...
I've been considering one of these Black Soldier Fly Blog - BIOPOD? by PROTA?CULTURE for the combined uses of composting and culturing feeders, but apparently they're more difficult to sustain in cold climates. The cost is another minor setback. I think that for someone with a lot of birds, larger geckos, other lizards, or large frogs the BioPod would be worth it's weight in gold. For me (as a PDF keeper with less than a handful of frogs) it's uses would be limited to composting only.


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## Dragonfly

I haven't seen my frogs eat many of these. The lost ones turn into larger worms. Since I don't have many frogs who like them, the cost is too much.


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## PantMan

Thanks everyone that was very helpful. Think I'll stick to ff, springs and isopods for now.


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## DrPhoenix

Hello All,

Craig Sheppard here, developer of the Phoenix Worm(R). Would like to jump in and clear up some confusion about our product so PantMan and others will have accurate information. First, CalciWorms(R) that are sold in a few Petco stores are NOT Phoenix Worms. Our customers have told us that these copycat worms are often dead, very low quality, and short count. We are not associated with the inferior product. We produce Phoenix Worms, the original calcium-rich, low fat, feeder and we keep AZDR and other distributors stocked with fresh worms. We stand behind our product and have the highest level of customer service.

As carbonetc mentioned, any moisture at all will allow these worms to escape. The worms must be served dry in a dry dish. Misting during feeding will allow the worms to escape. However, serve them in a dry petri dish or mayonnaise jar lid and watch your frogs select and enjoy them as the worms march around in a circle. Simply remove the dish after feeding so any remaining worms will not escape into the substrate. 

The shelf life can be months, with no change in size, if the worms are kept in their closed cup in a cool place (down to 50 degrees, which is ideal). Do not feed anything to the worms or refrigerate them. Genuine Phoenix Worms will be lively, packed with nutrition, and are fully guaranteed. We, and our distributors, will replace any cup that fails to meet our high standards. 

FYI - Here is a link to a short video where Richard of Black Jungle discusses Phoenix Worms and other feeders: 
Worms As Food for Poisonous Dart Frogs: Feeding Poisonous Dart Frogs | eHow.com

Craig Sheppard, Ph.D.
President, Insect Science Resource LLC
Professior Emeritus, UGA
The Phoenix Worm Store Home Page


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## Omead

Thanks for the info Craig!


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## carbonetc

Well I guess you guys owe me a cup. Ten worms for $7 wasn't the most satisfying transaction.


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## DrPhoenix

We don't sell single cups on our website, carbonetc. Please tell us the name of the vendor where you purchased the bad cup so we can take some action on your behalf. Thanks.

Craig Sheppard


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## DrPhoenix

Thank you for providing the name of the vendor privately. You mentioned that you never notified the seller that there was a problem so that's why nothing was done before now. We have contacted the seller on your behalf and expect that there will be a satisfactory resolution.

Craig Sheppard


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## AlexRible

I have tried feeding these as well. I only bought one package of the small worms about this time last year. IME they did not move enough to catch my frogs attention and the few worms I had went uneaten.


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## Paul G

They seem to be too large for most of my dart frogs and often get spit out or ignored. (even the smallest size)

I only have one dart frog that will readily eat as many as I can feed and its a huge WC female tinc.


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## calvinyhob

PantMan said:


> Can anyone give me the story with phoenix worms? Are they a good food source for pdf?


i tried these a couple times with different frogs, my cobalts would chow down on these everything else could care less about the "things" in the bowl. Give them a try at least if your frogs eat them you at least have another source of food. 



DrPhoenix said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Craig Sheppard here, developer of the Phoenix Worm(R). Would like to jump in and clear up some confusion about our product so PantMan and others will have accurate information. First, CalciWorms(R) that are sold in a few Petco stores are NOT Phoenix Worms. Our customers have told us that these copycat worms are often dead, very low quality, and short count. We are not associated with the inferior product. We produce Phoenix Worms, the original calcium-rich, low fat, feeder and we keep AZDR and other distributors stocked with fresh worms. We stand behind our product and have the highest level of customer service.
> 
> As carbonetc mentioned, any moisture at all will allow these worms to escape. The worms must be served dry in a dry dish. Misting during feeding will allow the worms to escape. However, serve them in a dry petri dish or mayonnaise jar lid and watch your frogs select and enjoy them as the worms march around in a circle. Simply remove the dish after feeding so any remaining worms will not escape into the substrate.
> 
> The shelf life can be months, with no change in size, if the worms are kept in their closed cup in a cool place (down to 50 degrees, which is ideal). Do not feed anything to the worms or refrigerate them. Genuine Phoenix Worms will be lively, packed with nutrition, and are fully guaranteed. We, and our distributors, will replace any cup that fails to meet our high standards.
> 
> FYI - Here is a link to a short video where Richard of Black Jungle discusses Phoenix Worms and other feeders:
> Worms As Food for Poisonous Dart Frogs: Feeding Poisonous Dart Frogs | eHow.com
> 
> Craig Sheppard, Ph.D.
> President, Insect Science Resource LLC
> Professior Emeritus, UGA
> The Phoenix Worm Store Home Page


On another note, how often do you see vendors come on here like Craig? I have to give him a golf clap for this, i work in a field that is solely customer service and when manufactures actually get involved in the customers conversations on forums that shows they will take that extra step for you and in this case you’re animal. Craig thanks for the info about how to feed the product and for clearing up the air between your product and some of the others out there.


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## Mworks

We have these in the UK now and my Terribs love them - no need for a feeder bowl or the like just drop them in one at a time and the terribs have them before they hit the ground. Kept cool they last for months so you always have a back up if your other feeders crash! - def worth a try!

Regards
Marcus


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## DrPhoenix

Craig Sheppard here. Just a couple of comments...gothaicus you said that the worms seemed too large for your dart frogs. Did you try the EXTRA small size? This size is about 1/8" long (termite size) and was specifically developed for the pdf market with guidance from a major dart frog breeder. He fed thousands of our worms to many hundreds of frogs before we took the product to market in 2005. Also, a note for AlexRible...fresh Phoenix Worms are extremely active and wiggly. If the worms you bought a year ago didn't move enough, they may not have been fresh stock or perhaps they had been stressed in shipping. This is not typical. 

We appreciate the opportunity to provide accurate information to forum members. Early on, breeders insisted that we must market the ex. small size. They said that frog hobbyists would be especially happy to have this new unique feeder option...a calcium-rich worm that didn't have to be cultured and wouldn't grow larger before being fed off. However, sales of the tiny worms have been very slow compared to sales of the larger sizes which are fed to lizards, geckos, and chameleons. Most of our vendors choose to NOT stock this size and frankly, we've wondered whether to continue offering the ex. smalls. We would be interested in your thoughts about this. 

Craig Sheppard
The Phoenix Worm Store Home Page


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## G. W.

Hello Dr. Sheppard,

This thread came to my attention via a pingback that was posted on my blog. After a few years of benefiting from your research I decided it was time to say hello and thank you. BSF culturing has been a great experience for me and I believe everyone involved in it owes you a debt of gratitude. Through my blog I encourage people to raise BSF but I always refer those who wish to purchase the larvae to your site. 

Jerry


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## DrPhoenix

Thank you for the kind words, Jerry. We have visited your BSF blog and enjoyed reading about your adventures with this insect. Good luck when you crank things back up in the spring!

Craig


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## PantMan

Craig, 

I would like to second cal's comment on your posting here. I checked out he link you provided and I remained intrigued by using phoenix worms as an optional food source. 

There isn't a whole lot of information out there so maybe you can answer a couple more questions for me.
How well do the worms hadle shipping in cold weather?
And do you know of a vendor close to the NY area that you can recommend?


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## Bcs TX

Dr. Phoenix,
I did try your product and my frogs did not eat them, yes I used a container in the viv to put them in and the frogs were a suitable size for the worms.

Just my experience...too expensive of a feeder for my frogs to turn their snouts up and refuse to eat them.


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## zBrinks

Is there any trick to keep them longer? The worms never seem to last very long after purchase, even though the vendor just received them.


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## DrPhoenix

Zach, as mWorks mentioned, fresh Phoenix Worms will "hold" for several months if kept in their closed cup in a cool place (50 degrees is ideal for long storage). Perhaps your worms were stressed by heat before purchase which shortened their life...it's hard to say. Phoenix Worms are not fragile and can be shipped successfully when other feeders cannot but they are a live product and freezing temps will kill them. Before shipping, we monitor weather forecasts and we guarantee live delivery. If temps are too extreme, we hold orders until the weather is more favorable. Komodo Reptiles usually has medium Phoenix Worms available in the NY area but he does not stock the smaller sizes.


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## Jarhead_2016

Dr. Phoenix,

I believe that the ex. small are a great feeder source, if you can get your frogs to eat them. My azureus took to them great, but i understand the trouble some people are having, my auratus would not even touch them. just goes to show you how unpredictable the hobby can be, remember thats frogs can be just like people they have their dislikes and their likes, you cant just force something down their throat, but atleast try them out, you might be delightfully surprised
-scotty


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## FwoGiZ

I am too am thinking about breeding these bugs... but I will have to gather a bit more information on them first. 
How would you make the difference between a calciworm and a phoenix worm?


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## Ed

FwoGiZ said:


> I am too am thinking about breeding these bugs... but I will have to gather a bit more information on them first.
> How would you make the difference between a calciworm and a phoenix worm?


If you are attempting to breed them in a clean enviroment (to reduce risk of parasite infections like coccidia) then you need a very large space for the nuptial flights (I could be wrong but I think it was about 3 square meters but I could be misremembering that so don't hold to those exact numbers). 

Calciworms and Phoenix worms are the same species but there may be differences in the culture methods between the two companies. 

Ed


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## PantMan

Finally bought some phoenix worms from a vendor.

I got the extra small size. My first impressions are very positive. They are a really good size (about the size of termites) and very active. My plan was to feed some to my trio of luecs tomorrow. With all the rain storms i'd be interested if this gives them a boost. I have to imagine the female is a little tired. I got a feeling the luecs are going to devour these guys tomorrow morning. 

Also after seeing them I'm considering trying to feed them to some of the froglets, maybe in a month after the froglets get a little bigger. Unfortunately I think they may be a little to big for my basti's.


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## Reef_Haven

I fed the extra small size to my tincs and leucs. They passed thru whole and could be seen easily in their stool. There is some debate about the ability of dart frogs to digest the cuticle. I'll be interested in your perspective.


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## PantMan

I fed some to the luecs this morning. The female went after them but they were barely small enough for so at time she struggled. One male gav it a shot but seemed more interested in doing the nasty. The last male showed some interest as well but I had to run off to work before I could see what happened. Overall I thought the frogs would have been all over them but that was not the case. I also found feeding out was a bit of a pain in the butt. I had to pick through and pull them out individually by hand

I'll keep an eye on the stool. I hope there able to digest them at least partially. If they pass them whole then at least I come away with some knowledge. If they digest them then I have a back-up source or food.


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## Melo

I had a young chameleon a little while back, and was going to test our phoenix worms but noone seemed to stock them around me. I read that they could be eaten and then came out whole through the other end as well, but then people suggested poking a little home in them so that the digestive juices could make its way into the worm. Make sure the poke is just enough to break the skin and not kill the worm, never tried it just what ive read.


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## charlesg

Ive fed phoenix worms to chameleons and my water dragon and I do not ever recall seeing a whole worm come back out. I have not seen the 1/8th inch ones for sale in the Seattle area though so how they work out with frogs I couldn't say.


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## zBrinks

I feed them to my dart frogs at least once a month, and have never seen undigested phoenix worms come out of the back end of a dart frog. The larvae do sometimes wiggle out of the feeding dish and down into the substrate - I've had them morph into soldier flies in the vivarium quite frequently.


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## Ed

I don't know that I would want them maturing in the house.. Psyche 63:112


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## zBrinks

My lizards love them . . .


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## marylanddartfrog

They are actualy not that hard to culture and as long as you add just enough food for your culture to prosess within 48 hours it doesnt really smell that bad


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## marylanddartfrog

I use them for my six species of darts,my red eyes,my cuban tf,my chubby frogs,my pacmans,my fire belly toads,my green treefrogs,my bullfrogs,my leopard frogs,my five,species of toads and six species of lizard they are a great additional food source I also like way worms to fatten up new additions


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## zBrinks

marylanddartfrog said:


> They are actualy not that hard to culture and as long as you add just enough food for your culture to prosess within 48 hours it doesnt really smell that bad


 Could you elaborate?


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## devder1

i had one turn into a soldier fly and it freaked me out, barely opened the tank all week needless to say ill stick to fruit flies


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