# ground dwelling frogs for a long terrarium?



## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

I have a 20 long and am thinking about which species of frogs like the ground. I have landscaped it with several "levels," a waterfall and pond, and a bunch of plants. I would like to keep 3+ frogs in this terrarium.

thanks for any suggestions!
Tom


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Do you current have some frogs already or are these your first?

Leucs, Azureus (2 males and a female) or Auratus are good to look into.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Any Phyllobates species would be good, as well.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Phyllobates, and there are some Epipedobates that are fairly terrestrial, but I don't know how suited they'd be to 3 in a 20L.


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## cubby23 (Jun 12, 2006)

all the tincs would be good. in a 2.1


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

kyle1745 said:


> Do you current have some frogs already or are these your first?


This will be my second try. I had 3 leucs and 2 cobalt tincs in there (bad-uninformed-decision); they happily coexisted for about 6 months before all the leucs died off fairly quickly, and the tincs held on for 2 and 3 more months. So Im gonna try again, and am going to play by the rules. I was leaning toward trying 3 P. Terriblis or 3 P. Vittatus, because, from what I read, the phyllobates seem a little more hardy. I really liked the leucs as well, and would be happy to try them again; I guess it depends on whats available when I order.

Would 3 P. Terriblis be too many? I want to make sure that my terrarium is bustling but not too busy, and I am also hoping to get a pair.

A lot of you are recomending going for a certain sex ratio. How do you determine that when you get the frogs? Or should I start with 5 and move two to their own 10 gallon when they get too big? Is 20g long enough room for 4 leucs or auratus?


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm also pretty new to darts and went throught the same thoughts as you. I kept three Terribilis sub adults in a 20L that has a 4" extension. The extension simply makes the tank 4" taller, plus adds some other things. The three subs were moved to a 29 and three juvs Terribilis were moved in to the 20L. While the Terribilis are considered terrestrial, as juvs and subs they climb and jump, alot. In the 29, the subs routinely jump 12" or greater from the substrate to the glass top, either picking off FFs or trying to jump out. IMO, a 20L is too short for subs. The extension helped. The juvs do fine. The 29 with it's 18" unfinished height is much better. As they get larger I understand they stay more on the ground. 
My 2 cents is the 20L is OK for the younger of the larger darts. A taller tank should be prepared when they get older. IMO, three or four is a good size group for these size tanks. 

EricG.NH


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

Thanks for your input Eric. I am planning on keeping these frogs in the 20 for their entire life, so I could pretty much forget about terriblis until I build my second terrarium.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Will the tank be stripped and disinfected before you put the new frogs in? (Just want to make sure)

Vittatus would do great in a 20L - and you could easily put more than 3 in there if you wanted. Vittatus really enjoy (prefer) being housed in groups. I keep 5 in a 20L and it has been great observing the breeding behavior. Offer plenty of places to hide (wood stumps that have holes or hollowed out area underneath) and plenty of leaf litter. They can be very shy as juveniles, but as they become sexually mature and begin breeding - they will be out alot as long as they have somewhere they can hide quickly.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'd stick with the phyllobates mentioned before, and the dendrobates mentioned... I wouldn't recomend any of the epipedobates... they tend to need taller tanks to establish calling spots and hierarchies...


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

rozdaboff said:


> Will the tank be stripped and disinfected before you put the new frogs in? (Just want to make sure)


yup, I ran the pump for about 45 mins circulating a diluted bleach solution and used full strength bleach on the walls. Plants were disinfected using a bleach solution. Everything was rinsed before rebuilding the tank.

Could you please tell me some about the vittatus? Are they very active? Social? Do they prefer malengaster or hydei fruitflies? Do they need a cocohut (I am hesitant to put one in there, the terrarium looks so good without it)? Does running water bother them (there is a 3" waterfall)? Do they like to hang in the water feature? What temp do they like? Do they call? How big do they get?

Sorry for all the questions--all I know of this species is how it looks; I couldnt find a whole lot of info on them online.

Thanks for your help,

Tom


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't know a whole lot about the vittatus... but what I do know about them is that they are around an inch in size... all the phyllobates do well in groups that's not an issue... but they are much shier than the "terribile trio" which seem to be out all the time for me... the vits also probibly prefer the hydei (all the phyllobates like larger food items than _Dendrobates_ of similar size).

When I finally dived in and decided on the phyllobates I was going to get, I'd seen all the species in person... while the vits and lugubris were out, they came off as much less outgoing than the bicolor and terribilis (which just don't care that you're watching). The auros I've seen didn't care much either... my female just sits there and watches me till I feed her, just like the bicolor LOL. As juvies they all can be a little skittish, but most juvies are.


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

I really like bicolors. Would they do well in my tank? How many would make a good number?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I think a trio would do really well in there, possibly a quad. I think a group of 5, while they aren't aggressive and do fine in groups, would be pushing it too far space wise.


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

Any tips about keeping them--food, temperature, etc?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Temp wise, these guys do not handle heat well... keep it below 76-78...

Food wise, bigger is better. The adult trio I'm caring for gets small crickets from the petstore mainly... about a dozen a frog per week. I also feed hydei (takes SO MANY to fill them up), as well as termites, pheonix worms, wax worms, anything they can fit in their mouth that doesn't bite back to hard.... I'm going to be trying lateralis roach hatchlings on them and the auros next...

Also keep in mind they are from Colombia... one of the wettest places on Earth... so they like it wet! Glass top, sopping wet tank (like I keep my truncatus in, also Colombia natives) and they love it. Hell on the plants tho... which is why I've only got pothos in my tank, lol, it grows in water and they haven't managed to squish it yet, even if one of the leaves can't really support their bulk :roll: 

I've got a hut in there with them that I've never seen them use... except to sit on and keep watch for food... otherwise they tend to just sleep under one of the magnolia leaves I have for leaf litter, or sit on top of the leaf litter giving me the evil eye... waiting for food...


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

tivas said:


> Could you please tell me some about the vittatus? Are they very active? Social? Do they prefer malengaster or hydei fruitflies? Do they need a cocohut (I am hesitant to put one in there, the terrarium looks so good without it)? Does running water bother them (there is a 3" waterfall)? Do they like to hang in the water feature? What temp do they like? Do they call? How big do they get?


Vittatus are very active and social. But, as mentioned, they are more shy than teribs and bicolors. They will be out and about - but often duck for cover when you walk in the room - but will emerge back out of their hides shortly. They are smaller than most people think - like Corey mentioned - about an inch or so. But they do enjoy larger foods - so I offer mine both mels and hydei, as well as the occasional crickets.

Coco huts aren't necessary as my group lays in film canisters, and I often will find up to 3-4 frogs in a film canister when they are about to lay (just to give you a size idea). My first tank had a water feature - and it didn't bother them - although I wouldn't say they made an effort to hang out in the feature. They prefer cooler temps - and like the larger phyllobates - I wouldn't let the temps get much higher than 78-80 just as a precautionary measure. My group seems to be active and calling most at the low to mid 70s. They do call, and it is very audible - but it is very nice - almost canary-like.



tivas said:


> Would they do well in my tank? How many would make a good number?


Bicolors would also do well in a 20L. I house my trio in a 20L and they are quite content. More than 3 I wouldn't recommend just for space issues. 

Both would be excellent candidates for what you are looking for.


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

Thank you for your help, guys! I am definitely thinking either Vittatus or Bicolor. I am torn as to what I want; the tank will be in my bedroom, so the Vittatus may get used to me and be real comfortable about coming out, or may hide away til I leave the room. On the other hand, if I get 4 or 5 of those, there is a better chance that I'd have a pair than if I got 3 bicolors. I would also like a frog that is out whenever I am. I guess I'll wait til I am ready to buy frogs and see who has what. Either way, Im excited about trying my hand at phyllobates!

Tom


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Both bicolor and vittatus have very audible (ok - loud) calls. They will call first thing in the AM and as the sun starts to set and even after the lights go off.

You mentioned that they would be in your bedroom - so I just wanted to make sure you knew this.


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

rozdaboff said:


> Both bicolor and vittatus have very audible (ok - loud) calls.


Thanks for the headsup--that kinda changes things a bit, because I dont like being woken up. I was looking at my frog pictures (from my last try) and forgot how much I liked watching the Leucs. Are Leucs suited for a 20L? How many would be a good number? A trio? Four?

Thanks again,

Tom


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Now leucs would go fine in there also....3

but IMO they are even loader than the vitts and bicolor...

of the 3 my vitts are the 'quietest' although not quiet by any stretch...

if you cant handle the chirping then go with a pair of tincs

Best of luck.

S


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> they are even louder than the vitts and bicolor...


I would not mind chirping during the day or late afternoon, if the call is not intense; which of the three calls at the most opportune time? Which has the most pleasing call?




sports_doc said:


> if you cant handle the chirping then go with a pair of tincs


Other than getting adults, is there any way to ensure that you get a 1:1 pair?

What about Auratus? How many of those can be kept together? I think the reticulated green Auratus look really cool!

Tom


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

tivas said:


> sports_doc said:
> 
> 
> > they are even louder than the vitts and bicolor...
> ...


Other than getting adults, is there any way to ensure that you get a 1:1 pair?

What about Auratus? How many of those can be kept together? I think the reticulated green Auratus look really cool!

How many mantellas can go together in a tank like mine? How difficult is it to breed mantellas? Are they terribly loud callers? Are painted mantellas, for example, pretty bold?

Tom[/quote:1uxonm8j]


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

tivas said:


> I would not mind chirping during the day or late afternoon, if the call is not intense; which of the three calls at the most opportune time? Which has the most pleasing call?


I find all of the dart calls pleasing to some extent, but these 3 are exceptionally nice. Unlike sports_doc - my Vits are much louder than my bicolors or my Leucs were - but I have at least 2 males, maybe 3 in my group, and they will all call at the same time. I don't remember my Leucs calling at night that often - but it is always a possibility.




sports_doc said:


> Other than getting adults, is there any way to ensure that you get a 1:1 pair?
> 
> What about Auratus? How many of those can be kept together? I think the reticulated green Auratus look really cool!
> 
> Tom


Other than adults, the only way to be sure is sexable subadults. There are a few vendors who sell either sexed pairs, or have large subadults. Have you considered Azureus?

Auratus would also do well in your setup, and do well in groups. I think 4 would be a safe number for the Auratus in a 20L. Depending on the locale, Auratus can be somewhat shy or very shy. People with more Auratus experience can comment about which would be best suited for you.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Many auratus morphs tend towards the shy side and will hide a great deal. The only exceptions I have seen are our green and bronze (moderately bold) and our green and black (totally bold). Of course the later were raised from froglets in a viv located in our kitchen so they have been exposed to people, dogs, etc. The little buggers will hang out in the open begging to be fed.

Oz's suggestion about azureus is a good one since they are bold and their call is so soft I've never heard it even when I've seen the male calling. Plus they are very eye catching with visitors...I never fail to get comments from people about those 'blue frogs'...many individuals think they are fake when they first see them.

In terms of having the frogs in the bedroom and not wanting to be disturbed by frog calling, your choices narrow down to those frogs such as tinctorius/azureus whose calls are so soft you can't really hear them. Even auratus have surprisingly loud calls. But personally I would not let occasional calling deter you from having leucs, vittatus, bicolor. Unless you have several males, the odds of hearing calling all day long 7 days a week is small. Plus anytime I've heard calling during the night, it was more of a low "I'm confused what time it is" call as opposed to full throttle vocalization. LOL who knows, maybe the male was dreaming (do frogs dream?) at the time.

Bill


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

rozdaboff said:


> Have you considered Azureus?


No, I have not, as I assumed they were a more arboreal species. Do you need to sex these guys, or could I put a trio together and hope for the best?

With tincs, if I were to get 4 froglets and put them together in the 20 gallon, could I separate them into pairs in two 10 gallons after they are mature?

Also, Im going to repeat the mantella question; I really like these little buggers and am equally open to keeping a group of them. Would a 20L be adequate?

Tom


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

tivas said:


> Do you need to sex these guys, or could I put a trio together and hope for the best?


They are a tinc group frog - and demonstrate similar aggression between sexes. They are readily available right now, and finding sexed subadults should not be too difficult. If interested, try contacting board member Scott Menigoz (username SMenigoz) - he had quite a selection of Azureus at IAD.



tivas said:


> With tincs, if I were to get 4 froglets and put them together in the 20 gallon, could I separate them into pairs in two 10 gallons after they are mature?


You could do this with tincs or azureus. Sex out a pair, and then move others to another tank, or trade/sell them as sexed subadults.



tivas said:


> Also, Im going to repeat the mantella question; I really like these little buggers and am equally open to keeping a group of them. Would a 20L be adequate?


I have limited experience with Mantellas - but the main consideration with them is that you have to be able to provide cooler temps (for the most part). They are also more difficult to find as CB - and I wouldn't recommend WC frogs for a beginner. There are some CB Mantellas occasionally offerred. Understory Enterprises currently has some CB - but shipping costs are steep due to the shipping from Canada.


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