# Unacceptable and Sad



## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

So I came across this link today. I am sure it will take all of you only a few moments to understand what I find to be infuriating about this and why my core love of this hobby gets shaken when I see these things.

I will give you a hint, this is NOT a discussion on mixed species tanks. I think we have beaten that horse enough.

Florida Aquarium Poison Arrow Dart Frogs


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

Sad to see frogs in that shape.
Scott


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

One of the frogs on the right obviously doesn't look too good but the others seem fine to me? A lot of frogs in the hobby are overweight compared to wild counterparts.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

I am not taking offense to the status of the majority of the frogs pictured. What I take offense to is the clear fact that this institution has no idea that one of these animals is walking dead. Furthermore, they post the animal in the banner alongside the other frogs as though its complextion and weight are typical of a healthy individual...as though it is simply another exciting morph.

For as long as I have been in this hobby I have struggled with this notion of who is ultimately responsible for this kind of loss and I am curious to hear opinions on the subject. Personally, the more I see this kind of thing the more I blame the supplier of these animals over the end caretakers. Is it better to be the executioner or the individual who sentenced you to death?

Also, I am not trying to be dramatic about this I am legitimately interested in the thoughts of this community.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

whwy woudl they even publish a picture of a frog in that kind of shape, i wonder who is taking care of their collection?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Personally, the more I see this kind of thing the more I blame the supplier of these animals over the end caretakers.


There should be personal responsibility for the animals on both fronts. The supplier may have incorrectly assumed that since he was selling to a zoo they had experienced staff which could adequately care for the frogs, but it is still most likely the caretaker who led to the frog to be in that condition. 



swampfoxjjr said:


> What I take offense to is the clear fact that this institution has no idea that one of these animals is walking dead.


Well, it is possible the caretakers are aware of the frog and it was just an uninformed photographer that took the picture of what he thought was a healthy frog for the website. Judging by the pictures, it's easy to tell something is wrong with the frog, but as to what's really going on or who's to blame we can only assume without knowing what is going on behind the scenes.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

why not give them a call?

[email protected]

or email the site creator....

give him the DB home page 


FYI, I think the site is published by Aq members and not the actual institution themselves...but...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I'm assuming that the only image we are all considering is the single pic of the Tinc on the right side? It does look a little underweight but all the others look fine to me. In fact, the write up and other pics are much better than some other zoos I have seen.

That being said......someone from Tampa should go to the Aquarium and look around at the exhibits and even ask a few questions.

I think a lot of us would be very interested to read a review on the frog exhibit at the Tampa Aquarium.

Here's to hoping it's a decent exhibit and I hope someone can let us all know. That is exactly how we can make a difference......


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Took your advice Doc and called them. They said and I quote: "The pictures are old and the frog is no longer with us."

Guess I will leave well enough alone as I am not trying to ruffle any feathers. Just sickens me a little having been around long enough to see this happen time and time again.

I am certain the fault for posting the picture rests on the unknowledgeable photographer as you suggest CC. Regardless of blame in the end the frogs suffer. Thanks for the objective feedback. All the more reason to keep supporting ASN.

Jeff


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Aside for the poor shape of the one frog, I thought you were going for the "did you know?" that these frogs are deadly poison.
I am new to this, but aren't some phylobates the only frogs that are poisonous enough to be considered deadly?


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm just a newbie, but it seems to me that frog should be in quarantine. If I can see that, how in the *#)% can it's caretakers not see that! 

In my mind they are on the same level as the big chain pets stores who leave sick or dead fish and animals in tanks and cages with seemingly healthy ones. They are either incompetent caretakers or they just don't give a damn.

Shawn


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Bear in mind that a photographer who probably is not well versed in frogs or animals for that matter, took those photographs. 

They also may or may not be representative of the actual animals in the collection - you know how that goes.

What we need is for people to go out to these exhibits and zoos and then write a comprehensive review to be posted here so that we can get a better and more updated idea of the health of the animals and the condition of the facilities and collection.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

. . . or to build exhibits for zoological institutions. Expect pics in a couple months . . .

I know there are several froggers in FL. Anyone local consider swinging by? Any time I've talked to keepers about dendrobatids, they've been very receptive to new ideas/advice. A lot of these guys are more snake/lizard people who end up caring for frogs unexpectedly.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

It is indeed sad to see frogs in this shape. It's even more sad when you realize that this isn't particularly uncommon. I went to a local pet distributor recently who had gotten a shipment of costa rican green and black auratus in. I spoke with the owner who said she'd never had any experience with dart frogs but she had such a good deal on these frogs that she just couldn't pass up the offer. I went back and looked at them and all six of them were looking like that. I spoke to the owner again and asked what the hell was going wrong. She wasn't even aware that there was a problem. I asked if she was even feeding them, she said yes, she gave them crickets every day. CRICKETS!?

I felt so bad for the frogs I gave them a culture of my own fruit-flies just to make sure they wouldn't die.... So, I have to wonder, who's fault? The is it the breeder who decided to sell them to someone who hadn't even done any research or is it the caretaker's fault for not doing the research....


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

My sentiments exactly. I truly believe that WC frogs making their way into petshops and zoological institutions is not a topic for this thread but CB frogs that end up in the hands of unprepared caretakers is something we all share responisbility for.

Again, just my opinion but perhaps a bit more Q&A before packing and shipping might do the hobby in general and certainly the frogs themselves a bit of good.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

It is always good to see hobbyists concerned about the animals (why else would we be in the hobby) so hopefully your phone call comment will make it back to the animal keeper there and draw attention to the problem.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Yikes! I think the health of the captives rests almost solely in the hands of the caretakers. If you can't take good care of it, don't have it at all. WHoever sold/donated them should have provided detailed husbandry practices, but ultimately it's the responsibility of those around the frogs on a day to day basis to make sure they have all the info necessary to care for them well


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Julio said:


> whwy woudl they even publish a picture of a frog in that kind of shape, i wonder who is taking care of their collection?


My thought`s exactly.

John


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

i have to agree with most of the ppl here... for the most parts the frogs look good. but that poor tinc. but doesnt common sence tell you when taking the photo's, hey.. that frog doesnt look as healthy as the rest. lets leave that pic out. those photo's have to change many hands befor publishing. its amazing how no one was able to pick it out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well... first off that is not the Tampa Bay Aquarium's website 

thier real website is here The Florida Aquarium - Tampa Bay 

That is a website set up by a volunteer who is could be enthusiastic about the aquarium or could be upset at the aquarium (if you look at the credits for the pictures one of the tinct frog pictures is labeled cormorant..) 

Second... we don't know whether or not those frogs were under vet care at the time of taking the picture or not or if the pictures were taken by a volunteer whether they were taken of frogs that are on or off exhibit. Those pictures could have been taken of frogs in quarantine or off exhibit if they were taken by someone with access to the off exhibit facilities. 

Just some random comments.... Depending on the enclosure set up one of the things you need to consider when dealing with a sick animal is the effect on it if you pull it and move to a different enclosures and then when you return it to the enclosure if there is a social group.
Just to be clear.... I am not condoning the condition of the frogs but I don't know that we need to be hauling out the pitchforks and torches and hauling people off to the bonfires as of yet. 
Some follow up is necessary before the stake and wood gets piled up and soaked with gasoline. 

Ed


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## RachelRiot (Jan 20, 2009)

I live in Tampa and have a membership to the Florida Aquarium. Those frogs look very healthy in person. That photo has been on the site for a while and I can assure you they do not look like that in person. That website isnt the actual site. Maybe whom ever took the photo was inexperienced in frogs or it was a new arrival and they got a little too excited and posted a photo before he was photo ready.


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

That poor lil tinc! I cant believe how some people are now a days. It's not just darts, it's other pets too! In fact, i went to my local pet store a month ago and saw a dead leuc in the cage with other leucs, barking tree frogs, anoles, and house geckos. All of which were sick and dying. That crap is just really screwed up u know! This mistreatment and neglect just sickens me. Even though i'm new to darts i am very experienced with other herps and it gets me real mad when i see a poor lil herp struggling to live and gets me even more ticked off when i see one dead! I told the mananger about it and he said they're just wc and some of them will always die and he'll take out the body later! I just dropped the stuff i was gonna buy and walked out. now i obviously don't shop there anymore.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

nice new avatar rich, have you been touched by His Noodly Appendage?
I don't think this is vendor feenback, because the institution in question isn't a purveyor of goods and/or services here. I think someone was just commenting on pics, not complaining about getting sold the sad tinc in question. I know what you are getting at, and I agree, but I think there are better instances to use as examples. I would prefer a completely open dialogue here, but there are so many people who abuse that privilidge. There are many vendors I would like to praise, and others who I don't have much good to say about. If anyone is ever interested, they can pm me for now, and some people do.
In the onion there was a great article awhile back that stated that 38 percent of people aern't even entitled to their own opinion due to lack of information/taking heresay as fact... and I think that's relevant here, especially with the anonimity a forum like this provides where you don't really have to be accountable for what you say. You can always make up a new user name and flame away. Freedom of speech is our right after all.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

RachelRiot said:


> I live in Tampa and have a membership to the Florida Aquarium. Those frogs look very healthy in person. That photo has been on the site for a while and I can assure you they do not look like that in person. That website isnt the actual site. Maybe whom ever took the photo was inexperienced in frogs or it was a new arrival and they got a little too excited and posted a photo before he was photo ready.


Bingo...this is exactly what we want. Thanks Rachel.

Rich, Reviews of Zoos, Institutions, Exhibits, collections ect should be outside the purview of vendor feedback. Although many of these places charge admission and expect to operate under budgets funded, at least partially, by voluntary public monies - it is different from a hobbyist on this board who sells frogs IMHO.

I think Reptile shows and Zoos should be subject to review on here as it provides a valuable service to the membership. Kyle has drawn the line at breeders and I think that is a fair compromise.

Anyhoo....the Aquarium has been visited and commented on, which is nice


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> Any way, back to the topic at hand. It has often been justified that over stocked, under fed, poorly husbandried, mixed species vivs in Zoos, Aquariums , and other public exhibits "educate the public and attract people to the hobby". *I say to that, those types of vivs are to education as porn is to sex education*.
> 
> Rich


Some people are going to make fun of that statement, but I think it is spot on.

All the experienced hobbyists know that zoo's include mixed species tanks for one reason, and only one: To save valuable, scarce exhibit space and to provide a vibrant, colorful exibit to wow the public, so they come back...well actually that's two reasons. I am sure the Tampa zoo has mixed species tanks and you are right...it fuels the justification for new hobbyists.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

All,

I thought this thread had gone cold yesterday and must say I was glad that it did because I felt it was (admittedly my own fault) headed in the wrong direction. Though you all my view this as me being a firebrand or barndishing my pitchfork I assure you I wanted a discussion about the status of this hobby as a whole not a condemnation of a single, irrelevant institution. I would refrain from this post entirely were I not taken aback by some of the responses.

First of all, Rich, I admire what you have done for this hobby and respect your knowledge on husbandry and treatement techniques. I also know your personal qualms with the vendor feedback issue of the dendroboard forums and I assure you I am not naive enough to offer feedback for an institution or vendor I have a) never been to and b) know little to nothing about. I do however completely agree with your second statement above.

Second, one of the voices of reason that I respect above most others in this hobby is you, Ed. Yet, I cannot help but respond to you centering your post around the technicality of the web address and the unknowns of veterinary care surrounding that frog. You know that a frog in that state 9 out of 10 times does not recover regardless of care. That animal does not have the reserves to even withstand the care it was likely to have been provided and that is assuming it is compormised by a single treatable ailment. Also, on that same exact page there exists a healthy example (assessment based obivously on visual indicators alone) of D. Tinctorius Citronella. One does not have to be an expert to compare two animals that went from nearly identical to that degree of variation and not at least consider something is wrong. It is neglect plain and simple. Finally, just to reiterate, I called them to inquire and was informed that the frog in question did succomb shortly after its photo session.

What I wanted to discuss in this thread is what I see as a negative trend in this hobby. We have made great successes in improving the availability of captive bred, healthy animals to satisfy what we can all agree is an ever increasing demand from the private sector. Yet, we combine that with little to no responsibility in the distribution of those animals and what have we in fact accomplished? In our collective tenure in this hobby how many threads on these forums, or dart den, or myriad other sources have you seen that go like this:

"Just got my first Dart! SO EXCITED" followed by "I was told they like to be warm so I have heated my tank to 90F and for some reason they wont eat the crickets that came with them" shortly followed by "I think something is wrong with my frog! Can you help me???" and ending with "sorry for your loss."

We do no service to this hobby or causes like ASN by denying the responsibility for these losses exists on the part of the provider. This is not the leopard gecko hobby. It requires a high level of resources and time to provide the care these animals demand. If we make excuses or exceptions who suffers or pays with their lives?

At the risk of derailing this thread further I have another example of that which is a grey area that should be resolved immediately. I was proud to join ASN because finally I believed the best and most experienced hobbiest were coming together to protect these animals and those like them. Is not one of the primary tenants of ASN to preserve the locality specific bloodlines of the frogs taken from the wild that are now common CB animals available to the pet trade? With this comes the necessary requirement to not crossbreed morphs. Yet when one of our own members posts images of nearly adult sized crosses between Tinc morphs followed by six pages of inexperienced and new folks praising "how gorgeous" they are and inquiring "where they can get some" nobody here calls them to task. Please do not turn this into a private property rights discussion. Whomever provided them with their frogs could have prevented this from ever happening with a few simple questions.

I am becoming angry so I am going to wrap this up. Please forgive my passion but I am disheartened and as this is the primary source of dart related information for a large majority of the community I cannot hold my tongue any longer.

In closing, any of you who are curious, google the following: Dart Frogs Florida. Perhaps then you will see why I brought this up in the first place. It is the first link people. Regardless of official affiliations or technical knowledge about Dart Frogs it is the first thing that anyone off the street could come across.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Second, one of the voices of reason that I respect above most others in this hobby is you, Ed. Yet, I cannot help but respond to you centering your post around the technicality of the web address and the unknowns of veterinary care surrounding that frog. You know that a frog in that state 9 out of 10 times does not recover regardless of care.


I don't think I agree with that statement that 9 out of ten do not recover from that condition regardless of care.... I have seen many frogs and other amphibians recover from that condition or worse.
That may be true for animals that do not recieve appropriate critical care but I have to say that your statement does not match my experience for more than 20 years now. 




swampfoxjjr said:


> That animal does not have the reserves to even withstand the care it was likely to have been provided and that is assuming it is compormised by a single treatable ailment. Also, on that same exact page there exists a healthy example (assessment based obivously on visual indicators alone) of D. Tinctorius Citronella. One does not have to be an expert to compare two animals that went from nearly identical to that degree of variation and not at least consider something is wrong.


So lets take a critical look at this whole statement.. one doesn't have to be an expert but given only the pictures... 

1) what indication is that those pictures were taken at the same time? 
2) what indication is that those pictures were taken of the frogs that were actually on display
3) on what determination that it cannot recover? Its kind of hard to make that assumption based on visual evidence. 
4) where in my statement is any indication that I stated that there was no problem with the frog? 




swampfoxjjr said:


> It neglect plain and simple. Finally, just to reiterate, I called them to inquire and was informed that the frog in question did succomb shortly after its photo session.


A further critical assessment is needed of the pictures.. really on what proof is there that the frog did not arrive in that condition? On what proof that it was based on neglect and not say due to a disease process that was under treatment? 

In addition, based on your statement earlier how did you make the connection that it died shortly after the picture was taken? The statment your provided from the Aquarium simply stated that it was no longer at the aquarium. So the assumption is that it died and was not say surplused to a third party, or shipped back to the supplier? These are all answers that are directly inferrable from that statement. 



swampfoxjjr said:


> We do no service to this hobby or causes like ASN by denying the responsibility for these losses exists on the part of the provider. This is not the leopard gecko hobby. It requires a high level of resources and time to provide the care these animals demand. If we make excuses or exceptions who suffers or pays with their lives?.


We also do not do the hobby any service by running off half crazed (or fully crazed) based on some pictures on a third party website about some pictures for which we do not know the actual conditions under which they were taken? You are making a number of assumptions specifically 
1) that the frog was mistreated by the aquarium
2) that the frog was not treated medically 

that are pretty wild assumptions based on those pictures. 




swampfoxjjr said:


> Is not one of the primary tenants of ASN to preserve the locality specific bloodlines of the frogs taken from the wild that are now common CB animals available to the pet trade? With this comes the necessary requirement to not crossbreed morphs. Yet when one of our own members posts images of nearly adult sized crosses between Tinc morphs followed by six pages of inexperienced and new folks praising "how gorgeous" they are and inquiring "where they can get some" nobody here calls them to task.


So on a non-TWI hobby site of which only a relatively few of the members are registered with ASN, you feel it is the duty of the ASN members to militantly police all of the threads and call people who have intermixed frogs to task. It is true that the goals of ASN are to maintain the genetic diversity and sustainability of the frogs in the hobby but that is why people should register thier frogs with them and follow the recommended practices. 
The best way to support ASN goals is to get more people to register thier frogs and follow those practices. I'm not sure calling them on the carpet for posting pictures of hybrids is the right path to get those volunteers to follow the best practices. 

Some thoughts,

Ed


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Forgive my inadequate usage of the scientific method and apparent impudence, Ed. I will differ to your experience.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ahh sarcasm... 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the idea that the aquarium should not be contacted nor is there anything wrong with showing all of that passion about the problem. 

Where we tend to go wrong is by jumping to conclusions based on interpretations based on very little evidence. This doesn't do us or anyone else any good and can in fact hinder the processes that can resolve the issues. 

I've worked both sides of the fence (running a herp department in a pet store for many years and working in the Zoo Community) so I know how it works for both groups. 

I suspect the Aquarium would love to correct the site but since it really doesn't have anything to do with that site it is stuck with the hate mail and phone calls. 

Did you try contacting the owner of the site with those actual pictures and see what they had to say? 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Spirited Discussion. Intelligent and impassioned responses. Experience and knowledge being brought to bear.

Threads like this propel the hobby and do animals, in this case, frogs a great service.

Back in the 1980's, I subscribed to the NEWSPRINT version of Fauna classidfieds. I called other breeders of rare Geckos with my rotary phone and pestered the likes of Dr. Tim Tytle, Sean Mckeown,Bob Clark, Bill Love and countless others for every scrap of information that I could gather during those magical phone calls.

Enter the late 1990's to today. We have marvelous resources available and list serves, message boards and forums, where a Neophyte can garner the same amount of knowledge in a few weeks that would have normally taken YEARS to amass.

I'm proud of the OP and the passion of his follow up post. I applaud Kyle for putting the man hours into this site - a labour of love. Ed and all the other long lived members who continue to inform and provide.

But Rich is correct as well. We do need to provide checks and balances to every facet of the hobby - it's just that important.

As to no one being vocal and opposing mixed species, hybridization and sub standard living areas......well, somehow I think you missed about a hundred of my posts. I defended the line and almost everyone that's been here for a while saw it and many many more raised their voices in support.

I am old enough to have not only witnessed, but been _immersed _in the "Reptile Industry" back in the 80's when albino Burmese pythons from Oklahoma set the world on fire. I have seen the hobby change and people are much more capable and better informed to care for animals than ever.

But we still have work to do....to continue to "do the right thing"....

Be the best you can be....help your fellow man to be better and work to save the animals...one sentence at a time, one dollar at a time, one hour at a time. Do whatever you can manage.

Ask yourself: what can I do today, tomorrow, to help?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Is not one of the primary tenants of ASN to preserve the locality specific bloodlines of the frogs taken from the wild that are now common CB animals available to the pet trade? With this comes the necessary requirement to not crossbreed morphs.


Well, it is not specifically an objective of the ASN to preserve locality specific bloodlines but rather preserve wild-type characteristics and populations as they occur in the wild. Since proper research and data is needed on a case to case basis for both the captive morphs and those in the wild, a taxon management plan is drafted before coming to a conclusion on recommendations for the management of the captive populations. In some cases "crossbreeding" may be required. But of course the animals need to be tracked in a studbook before any of that could happen, so if anyone cares enough they should register their frogs in the system as Ed said.



swampfoxjjr said:


> Yet when one of our own members posts images of nearly adult sized crosses between Tinc morphs followed by six pages of inexperienced and new folks praising "how gorgeous" they are and inquiring "where they can get some" nobody here calls them to task.


There is nothing wrong with crosses between morphs or any type of hybridization, this only further supports the need for a studbook that tracks lineages (as has been explained in previous threads).

Hope this helps your understanding of the network.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Corpus Callosum said:


> There is nothing wrong with crosses between morphs or any type of hybridization, .


Mike.....can you expound on this statement?


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

I am afraid that my reply is a little to late. Overall the site is more or less a dedication or informational website in regards to the Florida Aquarium. Being a webmaster myself I can see the effort that was put into this site, now in regards to the the logo resemblance and other interesting things, we do not know if they had permission to use this stuff or not and that is an issue for the Florida Aquarium would have to resolve. By the looking around and perusing the info, although stupid, I do not think the pictures were used to put down the Florida Aquarium. I think that it was either a mistake and someone is too lazy to change or isn't educated enough to know that this picture is completely unacceptable. I do not think that it is a representation of the collection, but I don't know. Zoos, etc have strict policies on animals that are sick and how they are displayed. I mean in regards to being able to move them to a location not to spread disease etc, but I am not in this field and couldn't tell you the exact rules and regs. Point being that this site is not the Aquarium's site. A mistake like this would cause chaos for the establishment. There are many big time cooperation's, PETA included, that would raise cane and give headaches to those who do this whether accidentally or otherwise. In this case I think the webmaster has made a mistake and has not corrected it for the "Unofficial Unauthorized Florida Aquarium Website." Overall there are a lot of people who are uneducated in animals and it is really sad when they make a mistake like this because they didn't do enough research to know if a picture of an animal is appropriate to use and represent another establishment correctly. Bad publicity is not what a well established animal sanctuary, you may say, would want or need. Let's leave that to our celebrities.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Corpus Callosum said:


> There is nothing wrong with crosses between morphs or any type of hybridization, this only further supports the need for a studbook that tracks lineages (as has been explained in previous threads).
> 
> Hope this helps your understanding of the network.


I am a bit confused by this statement. Are you saying that ASN has nothing against hybridization of dart frogs?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

For a short answer, see Catfur's post on the following thread (it's a few pages in [not the one on the last page]): http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/35800-hybrid-sale.html#post319777 

For a more in-depth answer and a full discussion, I'd like to ask you to post the same question on the TWI forums since this thread is getting off-topic (and I'm not yet home from FrogDay, will likely miss my flight if I start typing now  ).


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## amphibianaddict (Mar 21, 2009)

I will probably get a lot of negative feedback for this but...

In the wild there are no cages. The definition of a species is that they are able to interbreed. It is natural and i'm sure it does occur to some degree. How else do you think we got this amount of divergence between the species in the first place. The only difference is it happened before the species were discovered and so it became a "natural" line and not a hybrid. 

Do not get me wrong. I agree that in captivity it is a good idea to keep the lines separate and I dont mix species. I keep separate vivs and the point of this post is to point out that hybridization is not actually unnatural.

To me keeping happy healthy frogs is more important in the long run than what froglet came from which line and all of that buisness.

Oh and just because someone doesnt agree doesnt mean they are wrong or that you are wrong. You are probably both right to some degree. 

Anyways CHEERS


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## bstorm83 (Jul 16, 2007)

I just got back from the San Antonio Sea World and took these pictures.






































there was like 6 different species mixed in the same tank and a few of them looked rather thin...I tried to get picks of them but did not turn out well...the others looked just fine.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Yep....unacceptable....totally, because it gives credence to new people who don't know any better.

I wish we could get a letter sent to these zoos and institutions, that had some clout behind it...


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

is that a terribilis in there???


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Yep....unacceptable....totally, because it gives credence to new people who don't know any better.
> 
> I wish we could get a letter sent to these zoos and institutions, that had some clout behind it...


I completely agree in the aspect of teaching that mixing different species of amphibians together, regardless if they are all male or female, that it teaches newbies who know no better to do this. If a zoo can, then I can mentality. I know there is so many mix feelings on this, but this is just in my opinion.


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## amphibianaddict (Mar 21, 2009)

I was just wondering...approx. how large was the viv? It looks really tight seeing as all those frogs were just out in the open sitting there. Unless it was feeding time... even then its kind of odd.. I agree there are def some skinny ones in there and it really kills me to see this because it is presented to the public and they think that this is normal. Also it is so preventable!!


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## Azureus84 (Nov 26, 2008)

Corpus Callosum said:


> The supplier may have incorrectly assumed that since he was selling to a zoo they had experienced staff which could adequately care for the frogs, but it is still most likely the caretaker who led to the frog to be in that condition.


 I was thinking something on that line. I would have thought a zoo would take excellent care of darts if anyone would; looks like it isn't even safe to assume that much.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Such a shame, all that wasted genetic material. Sorry you had to see that at an institution that is supposed to have the best interests of their wards as a top priority.


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

If that is a terribilis in there it looks sickly and if it is not... what is it?


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

There are so many sides to this topic but I can say this, now I can understand if this enclosure is huge and there is a small population of mix species within it as in nature many dart frog species do breed together as well live in the same area. This is the natural selection of nature to see what new species will succeed the next and the strongest survive. In an environment like ABG, Atlanta Botanical Garden or on a frog farm, these enclosures are big enough to slow the process down and promote real life settings in an enormous scale. Now I do not know how big this vivarium is but so I can assume that it is probably within an environment that is small enough to promote and teach others that mixing species of animals, especially amphibians that it is ok. Now I do not feel Hybrids in some cases is a bad thing and I will leave this issue alone. BUT, I would hate to see newbies, beginners or whatever learn to treat these animals like this. Beginners are prone to spread knowledge they learn as it is new and exciting to spread info they are truly interested in. Is there signs or education posted around this viv. I have no idea and pretty much all of what I have said is based on speculation and my opinion but in case they don't have this information for people to read it makes me wonder, because I wouldn't put a male siberian tiger and a female bengal tiger together just because it looks nice.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Such a shame, all that wasted genetic material.


I'm not sure what you mean by that comment but I am going to make a couple of assumptions (so my apologies if I'm incorrect) and make some comments... 

Even if all of those frogs died, it doesn't mean that it is a waste of genetic material as whether or not it is a waste depends on whether or not you know how much those genes are needed to maintain the maximal diversity in the population. If you don't know then you are making an assumption and accusation that isn't supported... 

With respect only to the genetic component (not any of the other issues, lets be clear here) how is this any worse than the massive population swings in the hobby? (If we are going to throw stones about this let's not be in a glass house when we start). The hobby has yet to show that they can maintain any populations without new importations to sustain the hobby (for example, auratus have been imported fairly consistantly for over 20 years now.. what has happened to all of those frogs as well as all of the cb ones inbetween). The hobby continually discusses and throws around the idea that they are keeping the frogs as a "ark" yet we can't even keep auratus going without imports...... 


And another thing. A politely written letter or e-mail (note polite) expressing concern about the condition of the animal will result in a quick evaluation and response on it. If you send them a huge long vituperative e-mail about mixed species, it won't have the same effect as a nice note about how it looks thin and attach the picture.

In a couple of weeks we are going to get a lot of complaints from the public about the turtle trapped on its back... and we will check it out even though it will be about the male box turtle breeding the female.... Yet it is still taken seriously. 

Ed


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Ed, some very good points as always. I am going to be extra careful to maintain my patience in this thread because I know that in your heart of hearts (when your extremely versatile and profound scientific mind has been sated) that you look at several of the frogs pictured in that enclosure and at the very least feel that some aspect of their care needs to be reevaluated. That knowledge is enough of an ethical framework for me to defend my statement and engage in the debate that follows.

First, I have never claimed to be one of the scientific community. I have no formal genetics education and am not likely to acquire much. When I make statements such as the one you quoted I happily admitt to using the terms in the purest laymen's fashion.

To me, I am not trying to delve into the absolute minimum genetic profile to maintain some quota of acceptable genetic diversity. I simply meant that the adult (or near adult) frogs pictured in this thread have their breeding potential wasted. I believe, and this is purely opinion, that if we as hobbyists contribute to the negative elements of the pet trade (ie purchase animals collected from the wild in an unsustainable manner) we have a responsibility to breed those animals and contribute to the stemming of the wild caught market. The frogs pictured are not likely to aid the process in any way.

I truly meant my comment outside of the acceptable genetic diversity within the captive population realm because I feel that is another topic entirely and people like you, and the ASN for that matter, are devoting significant time and resources to educate and organize these efforts. I am rambling, which I know you don't like so I will sum up.

My comment was not based on any scientific data or hypothesis. I simply meant that according to my personal opinions related to the hobby of keeping these amphibians, that in my hands (or many others like me) I could try to pair up and propigate those animals. Seeing them in the hands of this particular zoological institution, in their current state, it seems like a waste. The best case scenario, as I see it, is that they live healthy lives for many years without much breeding activity or they reach maturity and produce hybrids/crossbreeds. Either way it just stikes me as wasteful.


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

I think I will be making a trip there soon to check this out. Regardless of whether the frog is "no longer with them", even if that is true it should have never been in that condition.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

While, I have never been an employee of any zoo or animal institution, I have always been interested to gather knowledge on them and how they operate.

I think that like any publicly oriented entity, a zoo must rely on both government monies as well as public donations (admittance fees).

A rather small percentage of animal holdings in zoos, pertain to any kind of CB program or serve as any kind of "ark" and most of the animal programs that DO have an eye towards such results are usually behind the scenes and off exhibit for a variety of reasons.

The majority of animal exhibits, in this case frogs, are for display purposes and to attract and interest the admitted public....and keep them coming back. In order to do this, the exhibit display must be exciting and vibrant and constantly changing...in order to capture the attention and provide a wow factor...hence the mixed species exhibits and the overload of animals, at times.

The proper way to effect change, is the form of correspondence that Ed has described. It would sure be neat if we had an organization with some clout - political or just numbers, behind it. That would help....


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

I've been wanting to go anyway so I am going to try and make time to go as soon as I can. When I go I will be sure to take many pictures and post them on the board. If there are any unhealthy frogs, should I ask to speak to someone or email/call them later? If they do not seem to care is there someone I can call about it?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

kamazza said:


> I've been wanting to go anyway so I am going to try and make time to go as soon as I can. When I go I will be sure to take many pictures and post them on the board. If there are any unhealthy frogs, should I ask to speak to someone or email/call them later? If they do not seem to care is there someone I can call about it?


 
Kate,

That is a very good step. I live under two hours from Clyde Peelings facilty and am way overdue for a visit, but if someone on this board reported some bad conditions and _possible _mistreated animals, I would make it a point to head up there and check it out

and report back.

This is one way we can try to effect a change. Every action, discussion,debate and report, however small is valuable.

The deafening silence of inaction is the downfall of many a species of animal.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

swampfoxjjr said:


> that you look at several of the frogs pictured in that enclosure and at the very least feel that some aspect of their care needs to be reevaluated. That knowledge is enough of an ethical framework for me to defend my statement and engage in the debate that follows.



Regardless of whether or not I think that there needs to be a review (and I'm not going to take sides here in this thread) of the frogs and thier care, a number of you do and if you read back through the posts there was a lament that they did not feel that they had the power to do anything. Well, as I pointed out you do, and I pointed out the most effective mechanism for you to handle it. 




swampfoxjjr said:


> First, I have never claimed to be one of the scientific community. I have no formal genetics education and am not likely to acquire much. When I make statements such as the one you quoted I happily admitt to using the terms in the purest laymen's fashion.


Passion is fine but one should evaluate the message that is handed down with the wording. Have you folks ever wondered why given the large number of Zoos and other institutions that work with dendrobatids (and the interested keepers who work there), there are virtually no posts from those people here? I have had a number of e-mails from keepers at other instutions that are amazed that I am on here given thier perception of how the hobby thinks about them. I have always counseled them the same, post on what you are comfortable and ignore the rest.... 




swampfoxjjr said:


> I simply meant that the adult (or near adult) frogs pictured in this thread have their breeding potential wasted. I believe, and this is purely opinion, that if we as hobbyists contribute to the negative elements of the pet trade (ie purchase animals collected from the wild in an unsustainable manner) we have a responsibility to breed those animals and contribute to the stemming of the wild caught market. The frogs pictured are not likely to aid the process in any way.


See my comment on auratus in a post above and immediately following this sentance. As a further note; the hobby has been contributing to the population of auratus for more than 20 years with captive bred animals yet they are imported on a fairly routine basis and if you look through the smuggling busts in the CITES archives, one of the most smuggled dendrobatid. 
Auratus have an easy ability to live for more than a decade (and there are anecdotal reports of more than this) and have a similar reproductive life span (meaning they apparently do not stop breeding if given the right conditions) so why is the hobby still importing and smuggling them? Why do we not have a large population of older auratus in the hobby? So lets look at the scale of waste.... If you look at the number of people in the hobby versus the number of institutions that work with dart frogs... where is the greater number? What makes you think the institution is creating a greater waste of the frogs than the hobby? 
The way I look at it, its way better to have hundreds of captive bred animals die than to take on needlessly out of the wild and then have it die, yet the hobby does this continually on a massive scale for a large number of species... but this is starting to seque into a different discussion of problems. 

As a further point of clarification... Zoos do not have infinite holding ability and due to complaints by public of how immoral it is to breed animals and surplus them to the private sector, most Zoos do not breed animals unless there is another institution that wants them because they need the holding space for critically endangered species for which they are working to manage the population like Atelopus zeteki, Bufo baxteri and Peltophryne lemure. So they have to decide what they are going to breed and when. If you look at the number of dendrobatids registered in ISIS in institutions in the USA versus those in ASN you would have a better picture. 





swampfoxjjr said:


> I truly meant my comment outside of the acceptable genetic diversity within the captive population realm because I feel that is another topic entirely and people like you, and the ASN for that matter, are devoting significant time and resources to educate and organize these efforts. I am rambling, which I know you don't like so I will sum up..


Rambling does not really bother me that much (and I do it on occasion as well) as it occasionally gives a better picture of ideals etc. 




swampfoxjjr said:


> My comment was not based on any scientific data or hypothesis. I simply meant that according to my personal opinions related to the hobby of keeping these amphibians, that in my hands (or many others like me) I could try to pair up and propigate those animals. Seeing them in the hands of this particular zoological institution, in their current state, it seems like a waste. The best case scenario, as I see it, is that they live healthy lives for many years without much breeding activity or they reach maturity and produce hybrids/crossbreeds. Either way it just stikes me as wasteful.


Lets look at this in a different light. How often do we see a post on here about someone having problems with thier frogs due to bad husbandry? We typically do not go into a flame vendetta about how incompetant they are or how they are wasting the genetic value of the frogs or any other really negative item on the frogs. We as an interested party band together to do the best for the frogs and help the person get through the problem and if the frog dies do not then try to make that person feel bad about thier losses. Chalk it up to a learning experience, they are often counseled. Why the double standard? Why is it okay to basically rant and rave about how horrible an institution is on multiple pages when there is something going on when it wouldn't be okay to approach a fellow hobbyist in that manner? 

How do you think a hobbyist would feel if they posted about problems on here and I laid into them about how terrible they were about the conditions in which they kept thier animals are/were using my authority as Lead Keeper/Amphibian Keeper? Do you think they would ever post on here again or might get out of the hobby altogether? How do you know that the person caring for those frogs is not a newbie attempting to learn the ropes? Turn over in positions is often high in Zoos because you have passionate people getting really cruddy pay.. the average Zoo pays between 12 and 15 an hour and requires a bachelors degree in a biological related science with two years of animal experience. That is a pretty high standard for someone with that level of pay.... 

There is more to this hobby than just the frogs. There are people behind it as well... and we have to deal with them as much as we do the frogs. A failure to understand that is a real problem in the long run. Passion tempered with forethought and compassion is fine, Passion without either of those is too often a message of hate. 

Ed


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

I don't know when this thread changed from an unfortunate photo I stumbled upon that I felt accurately demonstrated how poor husbandry can accidentally be passed on to new folks as normal into the perceived zoo witch hunt it has become. I wish it would fade quietly away or get removed. I will do my part and henceforth stop posting in it. Good grief.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kamazza said:


> I've been wanting to go anyway so I am going to try and make time to go as soon as I can. When I go I will be sure to take many pictures and post them on the board. If there are any unhealthy frogs, should I ask to speak to someone or email/call them later? If they do not seem to care is there someone I can call about it?


Too often at a Zoo, personnel who are concerned about the care of an animal simply grab the first person visible. This is usually someone working in a sales position or grounds clean-up that may not even be an actual employee of the Zoo. 
If you have concerns, check out the real web page (and not a faux one...) and get the contact information on where to send an e-mail and send it to them. These e-mails are then handled and passed along to whomever needs to deal/answer it. Animal care ones are pretty effective at getting a check on the animal.

Ed


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## dom (Sep 23, 2007)

just to clarifiy the website and who made it


LOOK AT THEBOTTOM OF THE WEBSITE

the officiale unofficiale UNAUTHORIZED
florida aquariume webstie
created by friends of the florida aquarium


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

dom said:


> just to clarifiy the website and who made it
> 
> 
> LOOK AT THEBOTTOM OF THE WEBSITE
> ...


 
Why does the Florida Aquarium even need an unauthorized website?>?

Wouldn't something like this open them up for shared liability?

Do other Zoo's and institutions have "alternate" or unauthorized sites?

I find that pretty strange...


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Why does the Florida Aquarium even need an unauthorized website?>?
> 
> Wouldn't something like this open them up for shared liability?
> 
> ...


I would assume that it is a person or group of people that are fans of the aquarium. Being an unauthorized version of the original can lead to several problems as they are not authorized to use this info or their opinions have not be viewed (whether good or bad), whether the aquarium does anything about it is their decision. I am not sure if this is different in comparison but here's something I could find that could be quite similar about the "Official" and "Unofficial" websites, books, etc. I have a link below, about a publishing company being sued for millions of dollars in publishing or about to publish an unauthorized, unofficial biography of Tom Cruise. I would assume since it is unauthorized that these opinions from the "Faux" website have not been reviewed by the Florida Aquarium or they would be an affiliate of some sort of the Florida Aquarium or have it posted somewhere that they had permission to create the Unofficial Website. Does the site have this somewhere?

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/%27Tom_Cruise:_An_Unauthorized_Biography%27_released,_$100_million_lawsuit_in_planning_stages


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This is from the home page (if you can get it to open) 

snip "Please Note: This is an unauthorized unaffiliated website, and does display images of animals and attractions that may no longer be on display at the Florida Aquarium. They are presented for historical and informational purposes. We make no representation that what is displayed on this website represents the current conditions, exhibits, or attractions at the Florida Aquarium. You use any information on this website at your own risk. While we may like and recommend the Florida Aquarium, this is a personal opinion, and we have received no specific assistance nor cooperation from the Florida Aquarium in the creation of this website and represents independent intellectual property and original content is the copyright of the author. Any information on this site is subject to change, and the Florida Aquarium is under no obligation to honor any offers even if provide by the Florida Aquarium"endsnip

If you look at the fine print in a number of spots, he is using it to also advertise his ability as a website designer. 

The aquarium does not need an unauthorized site... nor do other Zoos but is it worth chasing them all down and harassing them as most are not meant to be harmful? For example for the Philly Zoo see Philadelphia Zoo
Note that after they tell you how to tell a croc from an alligator, they show a picture of a white alligator labeled as a crocodile... 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed said:


> The aquarium does not need an unauthorized site... nor do other Zoos but is it worth chasing them all down and harassing them as most are not meant to be harmful?
> 
> Ed


 
Harassing is not a helpful word, in fact it's a bad W/C...

And nobody is suggesting a crusade or jihad against all these websites.

We can only do so much and must pick and choose each and every battle, cause or endeavor wisely.

I saw a picture of a frog that appeared to be in less than healthy condition on a website. The OP had the inclination, fortitude and desire to post it here in hopes of raising awareness and trying to both help the animal and effect change.

I applaud that and will do what I can to help.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Ed said:


> This is from the home page (if you can get it to open)
> 
> snip "Please Note: This is an unauthorized unaffiliated website, and does display images of animals and attractions that may no longer be on display at the Florida Aquarium. They are presented for historical and informational purposes. We make no representation that what is displayed on this website represents the current conditions, exhibits, or attractions at the Florida Aquarium. You use any information on this website at your own risk. While we may like and recommend the Florida Aquarium, this is a personal opinion, and we have received no specific assistance nor cooperation from the Florida Aquarium in the creation of this website and represents independent intellectual property and original content is the copyright of the author. Any information on this site is subject to change, and the Florida Aquarium is under no obligation to honor any offers even if provide by the Florida Aquarium"endsnip
> 
> ...


I am not trying to piss anyone off when I say this at all, as I agree on all sides on this issue. I am glad you mentioned this because I had a feeling that this thread could go into the direction of trying to stop or rally to some degree in regards to the picture. In a previous post in this thread I had mentioned that it could a mistake on the webmaster's part, as not all people are educated or know enough to be able to tell the difference between an animal is think, healthy, not healthy or otherwise. Most people like to take the road of ignorance in that, 'if i didn't know they can't blame me" even if they did have the correct knowledge before hand. Am I saying that we shouldn't stop others that have not corrected the problem or persist on doing the same BS over and over, heck not, let's go arm and ready, but really if the Florida Aquarium sees no harm no foul, it would take a whole lot of people, stress and effort to have this site pulled and/or revamped for the better, but in any case if it's just the matter of setting an example of how important this issue is then go for it, as I would not be too far behind you as any awareness of something being done wrong should be brought to anyone, if not everyone's attention.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

If nothing else....I would expect that all of Dendroboard / Dendro-world, would welcome postings on inferior or dangerous exhibits OR superior ones !

Most all of us like to travel and if you are like me, you tend to want as much information as possible....where are the zoos and what are they like in terms of herps...same with "pet" stores and even field herping while on vacation.

Remember....this post lead to two important things:

1. We found out that frog died shortly after that picture was taken.

2. Rachel (DB) from Tampa went to that Aquarium and reported that the exhibits looked good.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Harassing is not a helpful word, in fact it's a bad W/C...
> 
> And nobody is suggesting a crusade or jihad against all these websites.
> 
> ...



And I think I have been clear that there is nothing inherently wrong with this.. its only when the onslaught of posts that are in this vein quote "They are either incompetent caretakers or they just don't give a damn."endquote that cause the problems. Putting something on a web site is pretty long lasting these days and the long term unintended ramifications can be significant. 

The thing that amazes me is that the hobby appears to have two standards one for institutions and one for each other. Items that would get a institution fried with flames is dealt with in a very different manner..... 

With respect to unofficial sites.. another item to keep in mind is that most institutions are run on very tight budgets, they do not have the time to police even a small number of sites that mention thier name and animals to ensure the accuracy or image that those sites portray (and it would be a really sucky thing if they did as this could in theory cause them to prevent any posts by employees that were not vetted by the PR department so I would not be able to post here for example unless what I was going to post had been reviewed...) 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

atlfrog said:


> Am I saying that we shouldn't stop others that have not corrected the problem or persist on doing the same BS over and over, heck not, let's go arm and ready, but really if the Florida Aquarium sees no harm no foul, it would take a whole lot of people, stress and effort to have this site pulled and/or revamped.



Even if they did view it in a negative fashion they probably don't have the resources to chase it down and in any case if they did, there might be unintended consequences. I know that for example if that happened from stuff at work, I could easily be forbidden to share anything that could reflect on work without it being vetted by PR which would in effect take me off any of the forums or threads. 



atlfrog said:


> for the better, but in any case if it's just the matter of setting an example of how important this issue is then go for it, as I would not be too far behind you as any awareness of something being done wrong should be brought to anyone, if not everyone's attention.



Along this vein has anyone contacted the actual web designer who set up that site and holds the copy right on it? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Remember....this post lead to two important things:
> 
> 1. We found out that frog died shortly after that picture was taken.
> .


Actually we don't know that it died shortly after that picture was taken. The information provided was that the frog was no longer there. This can mean several things such as 

the frog was sent elsewhere which could have meant returned to the breeder, loaning instutution, given to a qualified institution or individual (some institutions are more liberal about how they place animals), euthanized, or died. 

From working at an institution all are possible and without harder data, the assumption cannot be made that it died while at the institution. 

Ed


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## flaquarium (Mar 27, 2009)

Thank you all for the concern you've shown for our poison dart frogs. I have gone to the webpage in question and taking a look at the photos. This is not the official webpage of The Florida Aquarium and the origin of the photos unknown.

I can assure you the care we give to all our animals is of the highest level with a dedication unsurpassed in the aquarium/zoo world. In fact, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums not only renewed our 5-year accreditation, they also gave us a glowing review calling us a "model for other institutions around the country".

Our poison dart frogs are all very healthy and live well past their expected lifespan. In fact, our animals live longer, eat better and have better health care than most of the general public.

Please continue to monitor our animals as well as those in other facilities around the country and maintain your dilligent watch over these beautiful and amazing animals.

Thank you all again and feel free to contact me with any questions you may have.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

That response is exactly what we are looking for!

......and how awesome is that?


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## RachelRiot (Jan 20, 2009)

Thank you so much for taking the time to come here and respond to this.  I was actually the one that contacted you guys about this other site. As a resident of Tampa I have visited the aquarium many times (we have had a membership for years) I have said before that I have never seen any of the animals there to look sickly but it is always good to get a professional point of view from the people who are there.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> That response is exactly what we are looking for!
> 
> ......and how awesome is that?


I am not putting this down or anything, and if this is indeed a real person posting on behalf of the FL Aquarium, I like to see a name or something to verify this. I can always get a friend to sign up and use that nick. NOW if it is real then you never know who is watching these threads or the power of the voice of people!  I don't always believe what I read at first, some clarification must be identified as we had a situation where a 14/15 year old kid posed as a dieing cancer patient sometime last year or the year before. I am sure some of you that sent your belongings and donations know what I am talking about.


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## RachelRiot (Jan 20, 2009)

atlfrog said:


> I am not putting this down or anything, and if this is indeed a real person posting on behalf of the FL Aquarium, I like to see a name or something to verify this. I can always get a friend to sign up and use that nick. NOW if it is real then you never know who is watching these threads or the power of the voice of people!


It is definitely a real person. I emailed the Florida Aquarium to see what they had to say about the other website. I also let them know that they other site showed a frog that was not in the best condition and that some people may mistake that for the actual website. I also gave a link to this discussion where I said they should post some sort of response. 

I am so pleased that they acted to quickly and responded here. That shows a lot about them!!!


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## RachelRiot (Jan 20, 2009)

Also I forgot that I received an email back thanking me for letting them know so I know they got it.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

RachelRiot said:


> It is definitely a real person. I emailed the Florida Aquarium to see what they had to say about the other website. I also let them know that they other site showed a frog that was not in the best condition and that some people may mistake that for the actual website. I also gave a link to this discussion where I said they should post some sort of response.
> 
> I am so pleased that they acted to quickly and responded here. That shows a lot about them!!!


Well then that makes me feel better, as there are too many people who do too many wrong things and I hate to speculate or assume on anything, especially as con traversal as this thread. Good job and it is good to see that one as well as many voices can do something to change or prove a positive situation. Still would have been nice to see a name or something, but I understand that I am sure I wouldn't want to have a flood of calls to my office. Or would I? Kidding.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Merek, you are absolutely correct about asking for a name. I was so excited to see that post that I overlooked it myself.



To the poster from the Aquarium:

Please post again with your contact information at the Aquarium.

Thanks for taking the time to join our group and post.

It means a lot to us.

Phil


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Merek, you are absolutely correct about asking for a name. I was so excited to see that post that I overlooked it myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It means a lot to me as well, as sometimes I feel no matter what we or myself do sometimes that it doesn't help, but I keep saying it. Every voice counts for something.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Has anyone else been there? I used to go as a kid. *SO* much nicer than the Baltimore one.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> Has anyone else been there? I used to go as a kid. *SO* much nicer than the Baltimore one.


Nate,

Which "one" are you referring to? The Florida Aquarium in Tampa?

What's wrong with the Baltimore Aquarium? I was there 1 1/2 years ago and found the fish stuff to be decent and the Herp stuff to be excellent. The Baltimore Aussie exhibit is bonzer!

oye!


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Not to hijack (maybe its good in this case) but yeah. The Florida Aquarium in Tampa. 
While Baltimore has great herps their fish stuff is really dated. I've seen cooler fish and nicer displays at lfs's.


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Yep....unacceptable....totally, because it gives credence to new people who don't know any better.
> 
> I wish we could get a letter sent to these zoos and institutions, that had some clout behind it...


Its funny you say this because what got me into the frogs was a trip to the Ripleys Aquarium in Gatlinburg Tennessee. I saw mixed species and was fascinated. My first tank was a 40 breeder with 2 azureus, 2 green and black auratus, and 2 leucs. I did some more research and quickly separated into smaller tanks. Luckily they were all juvies so they werent as aggressive at the time. I should have done way more research before jumping into the hobby but its zoos/aquariums like this that cause people to think it is okay.


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