# why is inter breeding so bad



## longliveledzeppelin (Jul 4, 2009)

snake keepers do it gecko keepers do it fish kepers do it spider kepers do it zoos mix stuff like lions and tigers dog keepers do it i wont force it but i wont kill the eggs


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Keeping the blood line pure
aggression toward different species in the same enclosure
Feeding
Temps
Stress
Bullying

I take it by your post you are allready mixing?
Please read the mixing sticky on page 2 of the care sheets forum.

John


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

longliveledzeppelin said:


> snake keepers do it gecko keepers do it fish kepers do it spider kepers do it zoos mix stuff like lions and tigers dog keepers do it i wont force it but i wont kill the eggs


If you look at most tigers in captivity by private individuals here in the states proves that a tiger is not just a tiger. We have a tiger/big cat rescue less than an hour from my house. There are 5 main types of tigers and a lot of tigers in private hands are crosses of these which makes them undesireable to reputable establishments. Makes it difficult to find new homes for them when the animals through no fault of its own no longer fits your lifestyle. 
The same happens with individuals in the hobby. Sure creating something new is cool at first, after a while its just another frog. If you do not want to use the search feature, look through my posts as I have commented on most hybrid threads.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

evolvstll said:


> The same happens with individuals in the hobby. Sure creating something new is cool at first, after a while its just another frog. If you do not want to use the search feature, look through my posts as I have commented on most hybrid threads.


^correct correct correct
Are u even asking a question? Your original post is just a defense of something that I take it, hasn't even happened yet. If you choose to mix, that's ur choice, but please don't post something like this which, to me, seems like ur just trying to start an arguement. You've been a member long enough, you've seen mixing threads, why start another?


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

You will not find a zoo that crosses lions and tigers. You may find roadside menageries that do so, but no accredited zoo would purposely let that happen.

As far as fish... line breeding is a little different. With bettas and other line bred fish, you can clearly see issues that stem from inbreeding. Tail nipping, deformities, breeding issues, etc. Keepers have to outcross every 10 generations or so to keep everything from going completely goofy. 

Hybrid fish are not kept by serious keepers. Flowerhorns, parrotfish, all that crap is shunned by actual hobbyists.

Snake breeders create new morphs, etc, from inbreeding, but don't use related animals if they can help it. Like fish hobbyists, many people don't like the hybrids.

I think the issue comes down to, as you will read across the forum, conservation of seemingly pure bloodlines. With the limited amount of importation, people would like to do their best with what they can.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

longliveledzeppelin said:


> snake keepers do it gecko keepers do it fish kepers do it spider kepers do it zoos mix stuff like lions and tigers dog keepers do it i wont force it but i wont kill the eggs


Putting a male and female together is basically forcing it


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## Estrato (Jan 6, 2009)

Search and you'll probably find 100+ threads on this topic.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Either you haven't attempted to do any research on why many of us believe mixing species is bad, or you're intentially making inflammatory statements to provoke an argument.... Either way, here's a wonderful place to start (which will give you more wonderful places to start): http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/40913-mix-mix-mix-mix.html

If after you read through some of that and still have questions feel free to ask!


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

A little note to the person who gave me red for my post in this thread-
Follow the rules Jackoff, I did nothing wrong here.

By the way, you`re 1 point deduction really hurt.

John


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Keeping the blood line pure
> aggression toward different species in the same enclosure
> Feeding
> Temps
> ...


You got a red mark for this post?

Ummm.....why?


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

I think he needs more than that for the lsst comment.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Nice to see things haven't changed around here and people are still abusing the rep system...
Brian


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

The biggest argument against hybrids (in my eyes) is that many people won't maintain a hobby, whether it be stamp collecting, golfing, or keeping PDFs, for an extended amount of time (let's say more than 10 years). I believe that this is especially applicable when the hobbyist is in their teens or even 20s (yes I fit into that category as well). Once they're done with the hobby the hybrid(s) that they didn't have the heart to euthanize as eggs could then leak out into the hobby and could potentially be introduced into a pure line and "taint" a bloodline that so many others have worked so hard to maintain. By producing hybrids, or allowing them to be produced, you're ruining it for everyone else. It's like a devoted baseball card collector being sold a counterfeit. My advice is that if you're unwilling to destroy eggs, then prepare to keep all of the offspring for their entire lifespan which can be upwards of a decade.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Marinarawr said:


> The biggest argument against hybrids (in my eyes) is that many people won't maintain a hobby, whether it be stamp collecting, golfing, or keeping PDFs, for an extended amount of time (let's say more than 10 years). I believe that this is especially applicable when the hobbyist is in their teens or even 20s (yes I fit into that category as well). Once they're done with the hobby the hybrid(s) that they didn't have the heart to euthanize as eggs could then leak out into the hobby and could potentially be introduced into a pure line and "taint" a bloodline that so many others have worked so hard to maintain. By producing hybrids, or allowing them to be produced, you're ruining it for everyone else. It's like a devoted baseball card collector being sold a counterfeit. My advice is that if you're unwilling to destroy eggs, then prepare to keep all of the offspring for their entire lifespan which can be upwards of a decade.


I agree with you and I would like to expand on it. Since there are such small populations of some species in the hobby that if a crossbred frog is introduced it could completely "taint" an entire species kept in the hobby which could eventually result in the loss of that species in the hobby. I know that it may take a while for this to happen but it is possible especially since some species are only represented by a single bloodline and the number of people continously breeding these species are very few.

So trying to keep a species "pure" in the hobby is a very important thing to do if you even care about the future of these animals.

I also don't understand why people need to make hybrids when nature has done an incredible job or creating so many unique and cool looking ceatures.


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

Look at Ball Pythons for example...Breeding for the sake of a particular color variation or morph. Although this is perhaps a unique way for expressing visual genetics at it finest, it does nothing but hurt the hobby by mixing blood lines and making it more and more likely to produce gross deformities down the line. 

I believe in the end all this post will conclude is that do with your frogs as you will, but if you begin to try and market these crosses down the line you will most likely not sell any of the hybrids. Look at the Frog Classifieds Section "Accidental Hybrid and Auratus for sale" you will notice that nearly 500 people have looked at the listings but only a few have responded and this is merely because of a sympathy pickup because this gentlemen needs to clear his collection. 

Just be responsible, mix tanks if you will for your enjoyment but don't begin marketing hybrids for it will do nothing but hurt our hobby in the long run.

Best,
widmad27


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

widmad27 said:


> Look at Ball Pythons for example...Breeding for the sake of a particular color variation or morph. Although this is perhaps a unique way for expressing visual genetics at it finest, it does nothing but hurt the hobby by mixing blood lines and making it more and more likely to produce gross deformities down the line.
> 
> I believe in the end all this post will conclude is that do with your frogs as you will, but if you begin to try and market these crosses down the line you will most likely not sell any of the hybrids. Look at the Frog Classifieds Section "Accidental Hybrid and Auratus for sale" you will notice that nearly 500 people have looked at the listings but only a few have responded and this is merely because of a sympathy pickup because this gentlemen needs to clear his collection.
> 
> ...



Ball pythons are not the best example for a counter argument to this as 
1) it is one species and no subspecies
2) there are few if any stable locality intergrade patterns (the only pattern in that region) thus the mixing of bloodlines does not hurt the genetics of the hobby and really is only a problem with those trying to make new combinations and finding out that not all combinations are compatible with respect to novel patterns. There are few genetically linked abnormalities to date in the ball python morph craze and the ones known with a few exceptions (such as spike tails in caramel albinos). 
3) there is a massive amount of outcrossing to prevent excessive inbreeding (all of the people who tried to hit the big money through hets and possible hets and backcrossing) resulting in a enormous gene pool supported by multiple outcrossings to often captive hatched wild collected eggs

I just want to add, that until Enlightened Rogue, commented on the ding, this was a dead thread with the original OP never responding to any of the input.. by bringing it back up, it has started the discussion going again, and without the OP.... 

Let it quietly fade away... 


Ed


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

Agreed Ed, perhaps not the best example. I was merely pointing out the crossing animals or trying to make designer types in any hobby, not just snakes or darts, more often then not will hurt the hobby.


widmad27 said:


> Look at Ball Pythons for example...Breeding for the sake of a particular color variation or morph. Although this is perhaps a unique way for expressing visual genetics at it finest, it does nothing but hurt the hobby by mixing blood lines and making it more and more likely to produce gross deformities down the line.


Agreed.


Ed said:


> I just want to add, that until Enlightened Rogue, commented on the ding, this was a dead thread with the original OP never responding to any of the input.. by bringing it back up, it has started the discussion going again, and without the OP....
> 
> Let it quietly fade away...


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## triton (Aug 6, 2009)

if you need examples of excuses that others do to do something wrong 
(tiger, lion) than perhaps you truly don't know any other way to enjoy natural life and sustaining it.
Mankind has been and continues to be the worst threat to this planet..
(although none of our issues have any impact on the universe whatsoever)
why stop at puny little frogs crossbreeding, lets see what happens when we cross a rhino and a bear....
i agree with all the other replies, if you do mix frogs, i hope you plan to keep it in your own laboratory.

if these puny little frogs were 15ft tall and 5 tons, i dont think you would attempt to mix them......size does matter !!!!


(war is a poor chizzle, to carving a better tomorrow)


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

i smell a troll


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

a cave troll?


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

an inter breeded cave troll!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Haha, someone tried to give me negative feedback (only gray, since they are clearly incapable of comprehending the basic tenets of the feedback system). Nice try you nut.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

stemcellular said:


> Haha, someone tried to give me negative feedback (only gray, since they are clearly incapable of comprehending the basic tenets of the feedback system). Nice try you nut.


Funny, I got that also!

John


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Gee...it's going to be hard to figure out who tried that


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Funny, I got that also!
> 
> John


Me three! we must be special.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> Me three! we must be special.


It`s great to be loved- isn`t it?

John


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

wow, i guess you are into interbreeding, keep in mind that the snake industry as well as the leopard gecko where all different morphs of which were created through egg incubation accidents, so essentially you will still get normal patterned animals from oddly patterned ones, so its not a great comparison at all.


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