# Inbreeding Opinions



## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

Hi Guys, the three frogs below are siblings I have been raising for over two years. They all eat great, but two are messed up, one with a giant goiter (it is now larger than pictured), and one with some kind of scoliotic ailment. The breeder points to my feeding regimen, but I'm not convinced. What do you guys think?

This is the one I'm selling. Any opinions on sex?









Scolio









Goito


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are a number of possibilities including infections.. there is too little information to even make a guess. You may want to consult with a vet... 

Ed


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## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

Thanks a bunch


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I also acquired a group of Yellow P. terribilis and have one with a deformed spine. My understanding is that good parental nutrition is key to making normal froglets.

Richard.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

As documented in fish, scoliosis is sometimes indicative of individuals raised with a latent infection from mycobacterium. The goiter _may_ be internal infection from this as well. Also, the lack of healthy pigmentation in the second individual could suggest infection as well, either from a parasite or also a result of bacterium/viruses.

I'm _not_ a vet, I can only _guess_, so a vet trip may be warranted to avoid improper treatment of this condition.

I'd also consider waiting on selling until you can rule these things out.


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## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

The scoliosis will be treated with a trip to the freezer, unfortunately, and for a frog with a potential infection, the guy with the goiter sure eats like a hog. 

There are those that will spend hundreds of dollars trying to investigate or treat illness in their animals. I am not one of those people. When I buy cb animals, I expect good stock. The goiter possibly could have resulted from a cricket leg spine injury or something, but the gimpy guy...I have a hard time believing something I did caused this.

It's just very disappointing.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

I think there may be a better way to put down a frog than the freezer.
Sorry to here about your terribs. I feed mine young crickets as well and never considered they can be injured by a leg spine.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Reef_Haven said:


> I think there may be a better way to put down a frog than the freezer.
> Sorry to here about your terrible. I feed mine young crickets as well and never considered they can be injured by a leg spine.


A little anbesol to the back and once they fall asleep then freezer this way they are unconscious first.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Or oragel... The frog should be fully anesthetized and unresponsive before being placed in the freezer as otherwise it may feel pain as it slowly freezes. Freezing without anesthesia is not considered painless or humane anymore. 

Ed


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Ed said:


> Or oragel... The frog should be fully anesthetized and unresponsive before being placed in the freezer as otherwise it may feel pain as it slowly freezes. Freezing without anesthesia is not considered painless or humane anymore.
> 
> Ed


Ed is that just for amphibians? Or everything that it's not humans anymore to freeze?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Technically it isn't humane for any vertebrate to be frozen, it can be done with fish and amphibians provided that they are totally anesthetized and are not a species that can survive freezing, thier eggs can be frozen provided they are not in later stages of development. If the embryos are well developed then immersion in alcohol is considered humane. 

It is not humane for reptiles to be frozen unless they are eggs in the early stages of development.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh really?? I did not know that. So freezing like mice would be inhumane?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Are you referring to pinkies or adults? 

Ed


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Either. (10 character rule)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Unless they are anesthetized it isn't considered humane see http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf for the acceptable guidelines. 

There is some argument about pinkies with some people but it isn't considered humane. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Smashtoad said:


> The scoliosis will be treated with a trip to the freezer, unfortunately, and for a frog with a potential infection, the guy with the goiter sure eats like a hog.
> 
> There are those that will spend hundreds of dollars trying to investigate or treat illness in their animals. I am not one of those people. When I buy cb animals, I expect good stock. The goiter possibly could have resulted from a cricket leg spine injury or something, but the gimpy guy...I have a hard time believing something I did caused this.
> 
> It's just very disappointing.


Many infected animals eat voraciously, this is not a sign that it is benign. 
If you do not find out what is causing the illness, it may spread to future inhabitants of the tank. If you choose not to get a diagnosis, it might be safest to assume mycobacterium and tear down and disinfect the entire tank, which may be more costly than a hundred or two to find out what is wrong.

If you have not had fecals run on your animals, do this before you put them down. Do a skin swab culture as well. This is very doable and preferable to a full tear-down.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Unless there are active lesions, skin swabs won't detect mycobaterial infections. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Unless there are active lesions, skin swabs won't detect mycobaterial infections.
> 
> Ed


What do you think of the two brown discolored spots on the one with scoliosis? Perhaps the beginnings of lesions?


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I will pay the shipping fee, if you want to send "the scoliosis" to me. Not a big deal for me to care for an extra frog or perhaps euthanize, or treat, as suggested my vet. 

Sally




Smashtoad said:


> The scoliosis will be treated with a trip to the freezer, unfortunately, and for a frog with a potential infection, the guy with the goiter sure eats like a hog.
> 
> There are those that will spend hundreds of dollars trying to investigate or treat illness in their animals. I am not one of those people. When I buy cb animals, I expect good stock. The goiter possibly could have resulted from a cricket leg spine injury or something, but the gimpy guy...I have a hard time believing something I did caused this.
> 
> It's just very disappointing.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> What do you think of the two brown discolored spots on the one with scoliosis? Perhaps the beginnings of lesions?


Even if they were lesions and not a piece of spaghnum stuck to the frog, a positive swab doesn't mean the frog has the pathogen. Mycobacterium are everywhere in the enviroment. A biopsy is required to tell... 
and http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/37650-foot-rot.html is the sort of lesion we should expect to see. 

Ed


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## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

earthfrog said:


> What do you think of the two brown discolored spots on the one with scoliosis? Perhaps the beginnings of lesions?


Those have been there for over a year, and in fact are almost gone now. This is also a bad picture, colorwise...this frog is actually much prettier than this pic suggests.


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