# Input needed to help solve health issue...



## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I've been trying to help someone through a hard time with there frogs health issues lately, and would like some more input or others' questions or suggestions or solutions of their own to prevent this from happening again...

They started out with an 18x18x24. They put a mantella and a leucamela in it...both are still alive and well.

They purchased four azureus froglets and housed them with the leuc and mantella. (They are now aware of mixing issues)

About a week later, they moved the froglets to a 15 gallon tank. (It sounds like all the tanks are stocked with plants, drainage, and abg mix..all from a sponsor here)

A few weeks after that, one azureus rapidly became skinny and died. (Around 1 month after receiving the group of froglets)

A few weeks after that, another would die. Then another.

Around the 3rd month of having the four froglets, they were down to one azureus which they presumed to be female. 

They bought a male, who was much bigger in size and kept separately in a 29 gallon tank, with hopes to introduce the female in the months to come.

The "female" died without ever coming into contact with the male. (About 3 months after receiving the original group of four froglets)

The male lived on fat and happily in the 29 gallon tank.

After a couple of months, they decided to get an adult female to join the male. (Both of the adults were purchased from the same breeder, the froglets were from a different breeder)

They introduced them, and had courting.

A few weeks later the male became shy, and shortly after became skinny.

After a week or two, the male was separated, Then died alone. (About 3 months after receiving him.)



The humidity and temps seem fine. The 29 gallon top is plexi-glass with holes drilled in it (mesh covered but ff do pass through).

Here are my thoughts...

The froglets came in with something and just died off one by one.

The male became stressed from the female and couldn't recover in time after being separated...or possibly some fruit flies carried over whatever the froglets were sick from.

Is it possible that heat on the plexi-glass could cause some harmful fumes?


Anything helps guys, as I've been struggling to figure this out...thank you!


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

My thoughts are the Azureus caught something from the Mantella tank since most are wild caught.

Second if he didn't know he shouldn't mix Mantellas and darts what makes you think he can properly sex a Tinc? I day 2 females


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is too little information to even give you a guess on the potential problem(s) causing the health issues. 

For example what were the temperatures in the enclosures (low and high). The low temperature should be taken before the lights come on in the morning (and ideally before the heating of the house comes on). 

Was there any form of quarantine? 

I'm guessing that there haven't been any fecal checks. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## tortfrog (Mar 19, 2008)

I think this may be simply a husbandry issue. I had a major die-off a few years back when I first started out to keep pdf. I had 9 species totaling 50 froglets from the same source. Everything was just fine for the first 2 month. Then, some froglets started to hide more and more and did not show up much. Then one by one they got skinny and died. In the following 3 months, I had only 5 azureus left of 50 froglets. And that was only half the azureus I had. I thought I was doing everything right so when I was asked experts for help I could not describe anything that was wrong. So it is obvious I could not get any helpful advice beyond blaming viral issues. So I started all over again and then realized I made 2 mistakes. 1. I fed them too little. 2. I applied too little calcium and vitamin. After I improved the food quantity and quality, my frogs have been striving ever since.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Yea, sorry Ed, there has been a lot of emails and everything is in bits and pieces...here's some more info..anything else you need just let me know.

"We dust our flies with reptivite with D3. Since introducing the female, we feed about 40-50 fruit flies per feeding. (when it was just him the number wasn't quite that high) On average, we feed about every other day.

The temp stays mid-70's and drops to high 60's at night. Humidity hangs around 85-95%. The bulb is 15W T8 full spectrum. we bought it at petsmart and its only 18" while our tank is 35" long.. this lets the corners stay a bit shaded and cooler.

the top of our tank is plexi glass cut to fit. there are no fans, but there are 10 dime-sized holes in the top and one 2 inch hole as well, all covered with screen. At feeing time we take the whole top off and let it dry out a bit because it tends to stay pretty humid."


No, there was no quarantine on the froglets or fecals done. And the male was by himself for a couple of months in a new tank, until the female came in (I don't believe there was a quarantine on the female).

jeffr- About the tincs... they observed calling and courting.

tortfrog- Thank you for your sharing your experience, hopefully we can narrow this down...I also had concerns about the feeding amount and supplements, but they say the powder's only been open since july, and the feeding seems on the low side, but I'm not sure on what is considered deathly low.

Any knowledge about the plexi-glass?

Thanks again!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The plexi isn't going to release dangerous fumes unless you are seeing the plastic becoming damaged from the heat (whitening of the plexi should be the tell). 

With respect to the vitamins, do they know how old the container was before they purchased it? 

I doubt it was insufficient food, and am leaning towards either parasites or a pathogen. 

I would suggest a fecal on the frogs, and possibly some swabs for chytridmycosis and/or ranavirus. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Vitamins expiration date is 12/14, and it was sealed. Plexi-glass is not damaged.

Another note... the water in the bottom of the tank is tap that was treated with repti-safe, and the soaking trays have bottled spring water, and the fogger has distilled.


With the thoughts on parasites and pathogens...

Sorry I couldn't think of a way to better word this question... Would it seem likely (based on the timeline) that one (or more) of the froglets were already infected upon arrival, or that they picked it up in the frog room?

Same question about the male?

Could fruit flies carry over parasites/pathogens from tank to tank?

Is it more likely that they received infected frogs from two different sources, or that something in the frog room is contributing?


Again, thank you for the feedback, as I feel I can only guess at this point.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

This might be a stupid response, but is this person constantly looking at the tank either externally or internally? Maybe the frogs are just dying from STRESS?

my 2 cents ;p


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

That's not stupid question at all, it was one of the first questions I asked them....And it sounds like the frogs have been given there space, and provided with plenty of hides.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jdooley195 said:


> Could fruit flies carry over parasites/pathogens from tank to tank?


Fruit flies can carry pathogens from tank to tank if everything is not well sealed. I also recall a recent post Rusty Shackleford put up. Chytrid has been discovered to on the feet of wild geese. The step in an infected area, and Chytrid (a fungus) can survive for up to half an hour before their feet dry, killing the Chytrid. This is long enough for a wild goose to fly 30 kilometers, thus spreading it to a new area. 
If it can spread on the feet of geese, it can spread on the feet of flies. It could also be spread on your hands from one tank to another, or from a single drip of water, dripping from an infected tank, down into another viv.
Here is Rusty's thread. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/81741-new-vector-chytrid.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdooley195 said:


> Vitamins expiration date is 12/14, and it was sealed.


This doesn't always mean that the vitamins are good... Expiration dates on unregulated products are not based on any studies and are often just a guess. It also doesn't indicate where they were stored on a shelf.. For one example a local pet store had thier vitamins on shelves right next to the heat lamps in the display cages...... 




jdooley195 said:


> Sorry I couldn't think of a way to better word this question... Would it seem likely (based on the timeline) that one (or more) of the froglets were already infected upon arrival, or that they picked it up in the frog room?


Without quarantine/testing in quarantine, there isn't any way to know. I would still suggest testing any remaining animals since there are some pathogens that can be transfered via several methods. Knowing what is there can also tell you what needs to be done to make it safe in the future. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Okay, thanks guys. I'll let them know.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hopefully it works out. 

Ed


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