# Assistance Selecting Frogs - Long/Low Paludarium



## Ptme (Feb 13, 2021)

Hello All,

TL: DR - What frogs would do best in a long/low paludarium?

I have a tank that has grown somewhat organically from the original plan, and would love to hear what species of dart frogs the forum thinks would do well in the setup. I had originally planned this as a temperate paludarium with the land recessed below the water line, but my wife requested tropical creatures halfway through the build. This led to some compromises in the design.

Specs: 36x12x20" aquarium, 5.5" water, land area 12x11x9" (LxWxH, plus ~36x3" boarder around the water)

Humidity and air circulation are balanced, and the heated body of water leads to a minimum air temperature of about 70F.

Note that the intention is to eventually use the peperomia at the back of the tank to cover the back wall (clips required, of course). The land has been in place for a few weeks and the plants are growing well. The springtail colony is well underway, though I haven't added any isopods.

The aquatic animals are neon tetras, cherry shrimp, and snails. There is a large cave under the main land area, and the land is quickly removable for access. The banks of the water feature are very sloped on the left and right sides, and the entrance to to the cave is small and below the water line.

My original thought on frogs was to go on the smaller side since the land area is not huge. I like Varaderos, but after more reading, it sounds like they may prefer a much taller vivarium? It seems like the relatively small footprint and short height available may limit my options. This is where I could use your help.

The backup plan is to go with starry night reed frogs or something similar, though we would definitely prefer dart frogs.

Thanks for reading this far. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I do not keep frogs, I do mostly rare miniature plants and I have some cherry shrimp. That being said, everyone who does keep dart frogs on here will tell you that a) they do not benefit from large water features and in fact those can be dangerous and b) they do benefit from much more vertical space and branches for climbing. I’ll let others elaborate on this.

I don’t know anything about reed frogs but sounds like they might do well with a water feature. Another creature to look at, and in fact this tank seems like a great fit, is vampire crabs. I have done some research with an intent to keep them in future and it sounds like they will make much more use of horizontal rather than vertical space, and a minimum water temp of 70 (and air temp kept stable by the water temp) is just right. They also should be a similar size to the shrimp and tetras, and of course there’s the mantra: if any resident can fit in the mouth/claws of any other resident in a mixed tank, it will end up as lunch.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Another thought: in future, it’s a good idea to design your setup with the creature in mind, rather than trying to make a living animal fit a less than ideal environment that you have already created. In my case, I designed my paludarium with cloud forest orchids in mind, but I have still encountered issues where a plant wasn’t working in the space I had allotted it and I had to simply remove the plant from the tank altogether or end up killing it (I’ve done both). I feel like the stakes are higher, and rehoming when something isn’t working out more difficult, when the subject is an animal and not a plant.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Your habitat is not suitable for dart frogs. The water feature is taking up most of the space and dart frogs really need to move. I would suggest maybe a different species of frogs like fire-bellied toads. (I have never kept them but anyone who has, please tell me if this is suitable.)


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

I think fire bellied toads _Bombina orientalis_ or 'floating frogs' _Occidozyga lima _could both do well in here although both could potentially prey on your fish.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

I don’t think this is suitable for reed frogs either. They need a more vertical tank. While having a couple (or a few inches) of water at the bottom is a reed frog thing, they spend most of their time off the ground, so you’d want a bunch of tall plants above the water for them to hang out on. Their water also needs frequent changes, and I’m not sure how they would do with the fish and shrimp.


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## Ptme (Feb 13, 2021)

Thanks all for the responses. You've given me some solid options to think through.

I'm tempted to add some vines or spiderwood over the surface of the water and perhaps raise the tank height by a few inches with an improvement to the custom lid. That might give me enough space to open up some dart frog options.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Ptme said:


> Thanks all for the responses. You've given me some solid options to think through.
> 
> I'm tempted to add some vines or spiderwood over the surface of the water and perhaps raise the tank height by a few inches with an improvement to the custom lid. That might give me enough space to open up some dart frog options.


It *might* work. I don’t think that would be enough area. Frogs need space especially a pair or more. Having that one tiny piece of land and just some wood probably won’t give them enough space to hide and call.

That said, if you increase the height and make a couple of large ledges along with some epiphytes, then you can probably make a somewhat suitable environment.

Either way, keep your progress going.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Ptme said:


> Thanks all for the responses. You've given me some solid options to think through.
> 
> I'm tempted to add some vines or spiderwood over the surface of the water and perhaps raise the tank height by a few inches with an improvement to the custom lid. That might give me enough space to open up some dart frog options.


I believe this setup is entirely unsuitable for dart frogs, and a couple inches plus a couple branches is not going to change that. Why not build a dart frog suitable tank from the ground up?


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## surfindude686 (Jul 15, 2020)

I hate to be blunt but unless you completely remove the water feature this environment is not ideal for dart frogs. Regardless of species. It doesn’t matter how much taller you make it. Water features are never recommended around here. 

Do people do them? Yes. Do some have success? Sure. From what I have seen though the ones that do indeed have success are very experienced keepers and usually they themselves will steer newer people away from doing it.

The reason being is there simply isn’t any benefit to the frogs. It’s entirely for visual pleasure of the keeper. This forum is all about best practices with the FROGS in mind. A water feature is not considered best practices.

That being said, others have suggested other species that might work. I won’t comment on that as my limited knowledge is focused on dart frogs. It’s a beautiful tank but please understand we are coming from a place of having the frogs best interest in mind.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> I believe this setup is entirely unsuitable for dart frogs, and a couple inches plus a couple branches is not going to change that. Why not build a dart frog suitable tank from the ground up?


Agreed. If you’re really set on darts or reeds, why not set up an appropriate tank. This one has a nice visual appeal, but you didn’t make sure it was suitable for the kind of frogs you want, so probably best to reserve this for something that will work (I’m not sure what) and start a second tank with your darts in mind.


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## aaronjb (Aug 31, 2020)

Are those rocks held in place with superglue? I've used cyanoacrylates to glue down aquatic plants to rocks before, but you should note that it dissolves over time (manufacturer's reference). I know reefers use it as well, but the coral they attach eventually holds on it's own and the glue dissolves. If you have all of those rocks superglued in place, you may need to find an alternate solution, regardless of inhabitants. I'd hate to have my rocks crash down on my plants and animals.


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## Ptme (Feb 13, 2021)

More good information. surfindude686, you presented that argument in a reasonable way. From earlier reading around the forum, it sounds like actual fatal issues with water features are extremely rare. Rare enough that that aspect doesn't worry me. That said, your thoughts on the purpose of the tank (for frogs) combined with FroggerFrog's suggestion of the amount of space frogs prefer gives me significant pause.

The answer to "why not make a new tank" is time, time, and space. We only have space for one viv, and I have a ton of time invested in this setup. It was very much a learning project, but I'd prefer not to scrap what I have. I also won't have time to create another tank for quite some time, unfortunately.

aaronjb, your point about super glue is true. The hardscape has been in place for a few months, and I do occasionally re-glue a few rocks. Gravity holds most of it firmly in place. The super glue tends to fail at the bond interface more than actually dissolve away, so it is still physically present in the gaps it stabilizes.

It sounds like I need to hold off on dart frogs for the moment and assess options. I could fairly easily make the tank 14" taller and add large ledges, but I'll need to decide if that will be worth the time, lighting considerations, and reconfiguring the plants.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Ptme said:


> More good information. surfindude686, you presented that argument in a reasonable way. From earlier reading around the forum, it sounds like actual fatal issues with water features are extremely rare. Rare enough that that aspect doesn't worry me. That said, your thoughts on the purpose of the tank (for frogs) combined with FroggerFrog's suggestion of the amount of space frogs prefer gives me significant pause.
> 
> The answer to "why not make a new tank" is time, time, and space. We only have space for one viv, and I have a ton of time invested in this setup. It was very much a learning project, but I'd prefer not to scrap what I have. I also won't have time to create another tank for quite some time, unfortunately.
> 
> ...


I would like to mention there’s also an object called money.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Ptme said:


> From earlier reading around the forum, it sounds like actual fatal issues with water features are extremely rare. Rare enough that that aspect doesn't worry me.


What is more rare are people reporting their failures. A sample of voluntary explicit reporting isn't a valid sample.

Also rare is failure traced to its actual cause -- 'failure to thrive', 'frog disappeared', etc. all have causes, and much more often than not occur in vivs that are less than optimally designed.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Ptme said:


> More good information. surfindude686, you presented that argument in a reasonable way. From earlier reading around the forum, it sounds like actual fatal issues with water features are extremely rare. Rare enough that that aspect doesn't worry me. That said, your thoughts on the purpose of the tank (for frogs) combined with FroggerFrog's suggestion of the amount of space frogs prefer gives me significant pause.
> 
> The answer to "why not make a new tank" is time, time, and space. We only have space for one viv, and I have a ton of time invested in this setup. It was very much a learning project, but I'd prefer not to scrap what I have. I also won't have time to create another tank for quite some time, unfortunately.
> 
> ...


You really shouldn't overlook the fact that there ARE species this tank is amost perfect for and actually ones that may well be a lot more visible and easier to care for long term than dart frogs. As well as fire bellied toads or indonesian floating frogs there are various newts that could do very well in here.


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## Ptme (Feb 13, 2021)

Newts are an interesting option. We have a red eft (adolescent eastern newt) in a smaller tank. I've been very happy with the newts I've had in the past. There is some minor temperature incompatibility between some of the more popular newts and what is already in the tank.

As I understand it, the toxins from fire-bellied toads can be bad for other wildlife in the water (more so than newts).

I've come across a short block of text on the Josh's Frogs website that seems to say that dendrobates auratus, specifically Costa Rican Green & Black, don't need as much vertical space and like to have some water available. That leads me to think that adding a good size ledge and ramp to what I have might make this a pretty solid habitat for a pair. I know many people won't be able to get past the depth of the water feature, but does about 2.1 square feet of land area seem like enough for a pair of auratus? That's about the same as a 20 gallon aquarium. I would also add more plants and visual barriers.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I know you really want to have dart frogs in this tank, but folks are doing their best to be gentle in telling you that this tank is not appropriate for dart frogs without a significant overhaul. Adding height to the tank makes no difference. It's all about usable surface area on the ground. You are viewing your tank as usable floor space anywhere that there isn't water. That is simply not the case. I would not count the rock space of the tank as usable habitat for dart frogs. There is no cover - nowhere for them to feel safe - anywhere near the rocks. The same can be said for the only usable floor space in the tank. Dart frogs like to feel like they can jump behind cover at any moment. If they don't feel that way, you will rarely see them. All of the floor space is very exposed in your tank. Even if you covered the little bit of usable space in the tank (on the right) with heavy leaf litter and allowed plants to overgrow that little area, it is still not enough. 

The problem with all that water is less about the potential for drowning (though I am not sure this should be dismissed) as about the lack of control over the microclimate. That much water will keep the tank at (or close to) 100% humidity all the time. This is not reflective of dart frogs' native habitat (most live in the forest, not along the margins of running water) where they experience humidity mostly between 60% and 80%. If it gets higher than that, the frogs have a lot of different natural microclimate niches that they can use to escape unfavorable conditions. This is not the case in your tank. It is going to be humid everywhere and if the temperature gets too warm, you have denied them the ability to cool evaporatively because it's too humid for evaporation to occur and they will die. 

Your tank shows a lot of effort and it came out great. It would be great for other kinds of animals, as others in the thread have said. I would love to have a tank like that for vampire crabs someday. For dart frogs, though, that tank is really not going to be good for the animals and that should be the first on the list of priorities. If you really have your heart set on dart frogs, we are happy to help you with advice on how to remodel this tank or build a new enclosure. 

Best of luck,

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Ptme said:


> adding a good size ledge and ramp to what I have might make this a pretty solid habitat for a pair. I know many people won't be able to get past the depth of the water feature, but does about 2.1 square feet of land area seem like enough for a pair of auratus?


No mather what you will (try to) add here, the base of this setup is simply not suited for housing dartfrogs. 
It's not the dept of the waterfeature that's problematic, it's the water feature itself. 

If this tanks would be setup correct for dartfrogs, it woud be only possible to house 1.1 in here.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Mark beat me by a second and provided a way better or more clear answer.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Ptme said:


> I've come across a short block of text on the Josh's Frogs website that seems to say that dendrobates auratus, specifically Costa Rican Green & Black, don't need as much vertical space and like to have some water available.


Not that captivity is a mirror of nature, but auratus climb to 50m, as high as any dart, and higher than most of the ones the hobby calls "more arboreal". 

I think the reason that people claim some species are more terrestrial is not that they don't climb, but that they tend to stay on the substrate more and have less frequent forays into the trees. This would seem to make the provision of more floor space even more important.

Where darts are found near water in the wild, this is often due to habitat pressures from human encroachment or -- in the case of much auratus habitat -- the surrounding habitat is simply way too dry and standing water is a moisture island. 






Dendrobates auratus - Poison Dart Frogs | Dendrobates.org


Account by Thomas Ostrowski Distribution This Central American species occurs from southeastern Nicaragua to northwestern Colombia. Though mostly distributed in humid lowlands and premontane rainforests from 0-800 m elevation, some montane morphs can be found up to 1200 m elevation. Type...




www.dendrobates.org





We can, and do, provide that relative stability in the whole viv in captivity, so standing water is unnecessary. Many species of darts are known to use a bit of standing water in captivity, but the reason many of us tend not to provide it is it is a pain to keep clean, and a waste of space.


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## Ptme (Feb 13, 2021)

I do appreciate all of the advice. While I probably do seem overly hard headed about this, I am only trying to collect as much information as I can before making a decision. It would be a shame to give up easily when I feel like there is a solution here. I will address the concerns point by point:

Humidity: There is more tech in this tank than I mentioned in the original post. I can control the humidity between 55 and 100% without trouble. I currently have it set to 92%. If I add a shelf, I will have the option to locally reduce the humidity on one or both sides of the shelf.

Hiding Places: I should have elaborated more on what I would add. The ledge would be about 13"x4" and covered in plants. Some of those plants would hang down over the rocks. There is a planter in the rocks that I'm not currently using, and that will let me run some peperomia or similar along the back rock wall. That combined with a few magnolia leaves and plants hanging down from above would create a lot of good hiding places. I expect the plants in the main land area to grow in a good deal more, and I will add more if the end result isn't dense enough.

Land Area: The final setup should have about 2 square feet of land area with good hiding places and topography changes. This seems like enough for a pair of frogs, though certainly no more than that.

Height: I could add height, but it seems easier to simply stick with a more terrestrial species. I see on the dendrobates.org page that auratus do occasionally climb. That could be a sticking point, though it's hard to say how important it is to them. Can anyone with hands on experience say how much time auratus spend climbing in a viv and how high they like to go?

Water Doesn't Benefit Frogs: Sounds like there are a few species that actually like to use it (though not this much). At this point in the thread, I feel like as long as I have enough quality land area for the frogs, the water shouldn't hurt anything. Water may not be necessary, but if it looks nice and doesn't hurt anything, I'll take it.

Clean Water: Already required for the fish and shrimp.

Does it seem reasonable to put frogs in a setup that, while not by the book totally 100% perfect for them, meets their needs for comfort and health?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Ptme said:


> Does it seem reasonable to put frogs in a setup that, while not by the book totally 100% perfect for them, meets their needs for comfort and health?


The setup needs to be 100% suited for dart frogs or this will be the cause of their death. This is proven numerous times before.. 

With a waterfeature it will almost be impossible to meet the frogs comfort and keep them healthy. Aside from it having no benefit to the frogs, it only provides them only risk and it add a big level a difficulty. How are you going to recreate dry season for example? Or provide the frogs the dry substrate they 100% need?

I aplaud you for doing your research and asking for advice. For real.
The problem Imo here is that you found a lot of outdated information which makes this all very confusing or difficult for you to understand what people that are experts are advicing here.

Also, you have to understand you are going to put animals that can live to 30 years in a glass box the size of a frog's 'hop'.. while in situ most frogs have a territory of around 3-10m². 

There is simply no logical reason not provide them with the habitat they need and deserve in captivity.

If it could be of any help to you, I'll put up a link of how I setup my tanks :

70x50x65 vivarium build report


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## Ptme (Feb 13, 2021)

I suppose I was inviting a less directed answer with my "not 100%" wording. What I meant there is that while the water feature is not by the book, I believe I have addressed all of concerns that have been listed and the setup can meet 100% of the frog's needs (with correct species selection).

For dry season, I'll just turn the humidity down to 60/65%. If they jump in the water, I can temporarily block it off or let them soak if that is their preference.

Tijl, that tank you linked to is quite nice. Is your "size of a frog's hop" concern more about height or land area? There is a pretty similar amount of space in the tank compared to the recommended minimum viv sizes for a pair.

I will likely upgrade to a large Exo-Terra in a couple years.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Ptme said:


> I suppose I was inviting a less directed answer with my "not 100%" wording. What I meant there is that while the water feature is not by the book, I believe I have addressed all of concerns that have been listed and the setup can meet 100% of the frog's needs (with correct species selection).
> 
> This is impossible when you have a treath pressent, I realy feel you have some missknowledge about the frogs needs. There is almost no way for you to keep the substrate dry and you are stealing usebale space from the frogs that they realy need.
> 
> ...


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Would glass frogs work? Not saying this like I know what I am talking about and they probably do better in more vertical space. People do keep them in 12x12x18 which is I'm sure is small and this tank is larger. I would just want to make sure they can't get stuck under the land area for sure not knowing anything. Also they would probably need more vertical plants if anything. I am pretty sure people keep them in paludariums. Maybe take the water down some and add a ledge underneath the land area so they can climb out if needed. Maybe somebody that knows about them can chime in if it is even possible to make them work. Just throwing them out there because I don't think they are common and need water.


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## Ptme (Feb 13, 2021)

After some reading, it sounds like glass frogs like quite a bit of height. Very cool frogs though.

Update: Adding more plants. Frog decision on hold.


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## Katiek1095 (12 mo ago)

Ptme said:


> After some reading, it sounds like glass frogs like quite a bit of height. Very cool frogs though.
> 
> Update: Adding more plants. Frog decision on hold.





Ptme said:


> Hello All,
> 
> TL: DR - What frogs would do best in a long/low paludarium?
> 
> ...


This is my dream set up for the crabitat I’m starting to build! I’ve been trying to put it together by looking at your photos but it’s hard to tell which types of plants and moss you used. I know this is an old thread so chances are low but would you post a list of what you have in there!?


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