# To much water?



## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I keep reading that dart frogs will drown in to much water. Has anyone ever experienced this - I mean truly drowning. Not the frog is sitting in water because its sick and then is later found dead in the water. Personally I think its a bunch of crap. All Dendrobatids I've seen, except newly morphed of some species, swim very well and I've never seen a healthy frog in risk of drowning. Comments?

Best,

Chuck


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I think it's crap also , Chuck. I have water in every tank I've built. No fatalities in 3 years.


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## ibytencode (Mar 25, 2012)

I think the implication is that there isn't deep water where the frog cannot get out, as in a butter dish or something like that. Every animal can swim for survival but Dart frogs are not necessarily aquatic in that they live in the water.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I've had Vittatus dive into water and stay submerged for long periods of time if startled. I've seen the same thing with Auratus. Voodoo myth IMO...


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Thumbs definitely have a way of diving head first into brom tank water and staying there for extended periods when startled.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

I personally have never had much water in my tanks, but I would think that as long as they could easily climb out they should be fine.


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## macadlo (May 14, 2010)

I have seen E. tricolor (anthonyi) drowning five or six times. The frog jumps into deeper wather a in 5 seconds it is dead. This goes for yound as well for adult frogs. All the other PDF species Iam keeping (cca 15) can swim pretty good and also can dive and stay under water for a short period of time.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I lost an apparently healthy female imitator in a small pond once. Visually, she was the picture of health. She was currently breeding. She was alive and healthy one day and the next day dead in the pond. The pond had gently sloped sides and she should have been able to crawl out easily.
Still, it is not proof. Frogs have physical bodies just like we do. She could have stroked out, had a heart attack, or even had an aneurism. Alternatively she could have drowned.
I have talked to two different people here on the board that have related similar tales firsthand to me. One, I remember was a Pumilio found dead, face-first, in a brom pocket. I can't recall if the other was a thumb or a Pum.
I think the frogs I work with (thumbs and pums) would rather have the extra space for more leaf litter, or another ghost wood jungle gym anyway so I no longer use pools in my vivs.
I think this is going to be very hard to prove either way. Even if you actually witness a "drowning", how do we know it wasn't a heart failing, etc, while they just happen to be in the water? Unless, of course, somebody is willing to spring for an autopsy.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

macadlo said:


> I have seen E. tricolor (anthonyi) drowning five or six times. The frog jumps into deeper wather a in 5 seconds it is dead. This goes for yound as well for adult frogs. All the other PDF species Iam keeping (cca 15) can swim pretty good and also can dive and stay under water for a short period of time.


All I'm going to say about this is that it is a physical impossibility for a frog to drown in that time frame. If they died that quickly it was due to some other major malfunction since that time frame is too short particularly when we consider the amount of time they can get away with being oxygen deprived. 

Ed


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I'm not saying its impossible for a frog to drown - it does happen and I'm sure a few people on these forms have had it happen to them. But it not common, it rare, very rare, even with Dendrobatids. Finding a frog dead in the water no matter how it was doing the day before doesn't necessarily mean it drowned. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I agree Chuck. I honestly don't know if my frog drowned or not. At the time, I was convinced it was a drowning. That was years ago and with age and experience, I can see that it could have died from other causes.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I can't really comment much on them drowning. I've only been in this for two years and have never utilized water pools that were deeper than the frog...never wanted to chance it. But...I've also read many many times that it's a waste of time to include any type of water feature in a tank because the frogs don't need it and won't utilize it. IMO (at least with the tincs I have) this is untrue. When they are given a water pool, they will all use it. They often go in and out of the pools to soak...especially when breeding. While it's true that they don't have to have a water source to breed...I think it's a positive addition to a tank.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

People should also keep in mind that if an amphibian dies in the water for any reason, they will absorb more water potentially distorting the animal post death (it is very common to see the mouth open with the tongue extended and/or a bloated body). These post death changes can make a person believe that the frog drowned (if it's mouth was open it was trying to breath right?)... 


Ed


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## Gnarly (Mar 3, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> I've had Vittatus dive into water and stay submerged for long periods of time if startled. I've seen the same thing with Auratus. Voodoo myth IMO...


My azureiventris would employ such a tactic when their tank had a water feature. 

I've also never had a frog die, but I'm also relatively new to the hobby.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

macadlo said:


> I have seen E. tricolor (anthonyi) drowning five or six times. The frog jumps into deeper wather a in 5 seconds it is dead. This goes for yound as well for adult frogs. All the other PDF species Iam keeping (cca 15) can swim pretty good and also can dive and stay under water for a short period of time.


5 seconds? Do you have pools of mercury in your tank 

I haven't utilized too many pools in my tanks but I have found all the larger frogs swim just fine. Why wouldn't they? They don't have webbed feet but that just means their swimming abilities aren't optimal.

In my pumilio and Ranitomeya tanks I've had broms that hold a lot of water and I've never had a drowning. And plenty of times I've seen them go several inches down under the water.

I'm sure it happens, but like Chuck said, it's rare.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Just pointing out too, that IF in fact, my Imitator was a drowning, which we will never know, I was running them "Old School" I had a group of one male and 2 or 3 females. I have to wonder that IF it was a drowning, could she have been wrestling with another female?


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

A MURDER! cold case S.F.U


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

i would say that is a good possibility Doug. I had a murderous Neon tetra chase his two tank mates right out of the tank. Forced them to jump..I could definitely see a frog getting chased into the water and not allowed to leave.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It was the perfect crime...she was never even tried!


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> It was the perfect crime...she was never even tried!


Hahahah

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> 5 seconds? Do you have pools of mercury in your tank
> .


I don't know if I want to see the frog that would sink into a pool of mercury... 

Ed


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Ed said:


> I don't know if I want to see the frog that would sink into a pool of mercury...
> 
> Ed


Haha, good point! Goliath frog maybe


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## froggie too (Nov 6, 2011)

I orignaly thought that my retic had drowned in a film cup not to long ago. It was very strange. I was watching it play on the rim of the film cup, two or three times. But not going in. Then two day later in was in trying to get out . So i helped it out. Not thinking i did not lower the amount of water in the cup. One day later it had drowned. I think the cup was to deep, and to vertical for the frog. Took the living tank mate to the vet. The vet examed it and said it looked good. Now I am starting to secound guess my thoughts on this matter. I have other thums that go in and out of film cups all day. I have a male varadero that likes to swim under the water with his tads,before he starts singing every time. It is allmost as if he likes to ck them out, under the water.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

The justice system always goes easy on women


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Just pointing out too, that IF in fact, my Imitator was a drowning, which we will never know, I was running them "Old School" I had a group of one male and 2 or 3 females. I have to wonder that IF it was a drowning, could she have been wrestling with another female?


This made me think about these 2 intermedius of mine:









I am pretty keen on keeping some form of water in all my tanks. I feel the benefits outweigh the risks. With that said, when these 2 gals were wrestling in and around that little cup ..I removed it. I did not know their sexes at the time, but now know, since they are both happy mamas in separate tanks (and they are also a lot cleaner since they no longer mud wrestle.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

srrrio said:


> This made me think about these 2 intermedius of mine:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See now you could have just added some mud or jello and charged money to watch.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

My brother has lecos and I witnessed one jump off one of his broms into the water about 12+ inches below, swim around for a sec then attach to the glass so he was midway out of the water


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## fishgas4 (Jan 23, 2012)

I beleive that if left in water dart frogs will drown. My E. Tricolor leave tads in film canisters and I then dump them in a 20 gallon fish tank with two bubble type corner filters and a large piece of driftwood. The tank is only about half full and the wood sticks out quite a bit. I have found that once the front legs have popped, and they climb out of the water, they appear to be so exhausted, that they need time to just sit and rest. I have scared them/chased back into the water and I know that if I dont catch them they will drown from exhaustion. They are then canabalized by the younger tads. I take froglets that climb out of the water onto the wood, and I assume can now breath air, and dump them in a large Sterlite tub with lots of leaf litter. From the amount of frogs I see inside, they seem to do just fine.

Sorry, dont mean to ramble on. I think recently morphed or frogs that are in the process of morphing, are living off their tales and are very weak. They will drown.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fishgas4 said:


> I beleive that if left in water dart frogs will drown. My E. Tricolor leave tads in film canisters and I then dump them in a 20 gallon fish tank with two bubble type corner filters and a large piece of driftwood. The tank is only about half full and the wood sticks out quite a bit. I have found that once the front legs have popped, and they climb out of the water, they appear to be so exhausted, that they need time to just sit and rest. I have scared them/chased back into the water and I know that if I dont catch them they will drown from exhaustion. They are then canabalized by the younger tads. I take froglets that climb out of the water onto the wood, and I assume can now breath air, and dump them in a large Sterlite tub with lots of leaf litter. From the amount of frogs I see inside, they seem to do just fine.
> 
> Sorry, dont mean to ramble on. I think recently morphed or frogs that are in the process of morphing, are living off their tales and are very weak. They will drown.


Death during metamorphosis from drowning is different than the chance of an adult frog drowning. 
Drowning could be from your thought on exhaustion it could also be due to other issues that are husbandry related like improper nutritional stores... or viral infections

Ed


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

In my time raising dart frogs ive never experienced a death from drowning and so i believe its all a big myth. Ill definitely be able to report some further results in the near future because today i added 5 E. Tricolor to my 125 gal paludarium which consists of an island of land commpletely surrounded by 7 inch deep water full of fish. If they survive this then im positive theyll survive most other simple water features. Already in the few hours theyve been in here ive seen them jump in the water a few times and within seconds theyre already back out on a ledge or plant growing out of the water. Id say the key is just to have as many points as possible for them to get out and not have any fish that are going to nip at them if they happen to fall/jump in!


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

Also in addition to my last comment i just wanted to add that i spoke to the owner of blackjungleterrariums today in person for quite an extensive amount of time when i was picking up my frogs and he repeated many times that hes a strong believer that paludariums are well suited for dart frogs and that the whole drowning due to poor swimming skills thing is all a myth spread over the internet. If youre not going to take his word for it then i dont know what to tell you, especially gearing this comment towards this guy telling us that hes seen frogs die in 5 seconds of hitting the water which literally makes no sense whatsoever...


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Honestly I think that a pair of frogs will never drown in water. I think what most people are concerned about is that when the frogs wrestle they could drown another frog.

But thinking over the last 3 years in the hobby even my female Azureus's never drowned the other one when they fought.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

Oh yea my pond is about to get deeper. When I was last in the hobby, that was a well believed myth. If not followed horrid flaming would ascend on you


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## dendrobates (May 11, 2009)

The only time I have experienced a frog drowning was when a morphing froglet was in a container that was not sloped for exit. The frog appeared healthy one day and the next he was dead. I'm pretty sure he just wasn't able to climb the side of the container.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I think most drownings are sick frogs, or frogs that spazzed out and the keeper thought they were dead, when they were really in that shock/playing dead mode they do sometimes.

I actually like my ponds with a 50 degree angle or maybe steeper...steep enough it is difficult for another frog to hold one there under water without them both falling in pretty much, but not to steep for them to climb out. 

I think a very gradual sloping shoreline is probably the 2nd most dangerous type other then a straight drop or an undercut bank they can get trapped under, because a gradual slope makes it easy for another frog to hold one down in the water...once they don't feel something below their feet though they tend to start swimming.

Almost every story I've heard is a situation where the frog was likely sick and went to soak probably to stay hydrated as some kinda natural coping behavior and then died...probably not good to soak if they are having some kinda respiratory ailment... or very very young froglets who have trouble climbing out and exhaust themselves, and maybe some where a frog falls or is stressed out (probably by the keeper) and is injured enough that the water finishes them.


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## SilverShaded (Apr 2, 2018)

I have a pond with mine and i find Epipedobates are poor swimmers, they're fine if there are floating plants, or a very easy way to get out but they tire fast and sink. Ive pulled a couple out recently after having less plants, not dead but so knackered they just lie on the substrate for 10's of minutes before regaining strength. Generally they avoid going in the water and are not good at climbing out.

As other mentioned, Hyloaxalus will dive to the bottom and swim really well.

Ranitomeyer float very well, snout above water, so seem unlikely to drown and i've seen them deliberatly go for a swim.

Each species probably reacts differently to water.


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