# Panama herp farm



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Hi, guys I am looking into opening a herp farm in south america.
Looking for you guys opinions on the project.


I have looked into Panama mainly because it is one of the most stable countries in SA and buying land there is safer.

Getting citizenship and the rights to own a business doesn't seem that hard either with the friendly nations visa.

My main concern is the "collection permits" with the ANAM & the abillity to export live animals & plants. Is Panama open for exports of animals & of plants?

I know of one frog farm in panama and have read mixed reviews about the provenance of the frogs. Apparently frogs are ranched and not CB.
However they are certified by the ANAM...

My intentions are to buy a large piece of land (atm I'm looking into 331 acres for sale in the bocas region), breed frogs & other herps for conservation & sell some to cover daily operations. Establishing myself as a reliable, safe & legal source for Panamanian species.
I will also be producing tissue cultured plants endemic to panama.

Do you guys think this is feasible at all?

I have the funds ready and am looking for a place I can start my project in south america. Dart frogs or not. Panama or not.
What place is the easiest to establish a project like this ?


Thank you

Kevin


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## Vinegaroonie (Jul 31, 2015)

I honestly have no idea, however, I believe it is pretty tricky to get any sort of export permit from any South American country. Doable, but tricky. One day I'd love to do the same thing, you're very lucky to even be able to consider doing this. Pretty ambitious and I hope you can do it!

What herps will you be breeding? Do you plan to export all of them? What experience do you have with herp husbandry? Be careful not to jump in, this kind of thing has to be done the right way or should not be done at all.

Best of luck!

-Niko


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

If you want to see how hard something like this can be, look into Tesoros de Colombia for some information on how long it took them to even get a couple exports out of the country. I'm not sure what Panama's regulations are like off the top of my head, but I suspect it probably will take a lot of paperwork, time, and basically consume your life. But, if you can do it, more power to you!


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Considering the flood of pumilio constantly coming out of Panama, it probably isn't all that hard to get permits for exports. 

On the flip side of that same coin, the fact that WC exports are still allowed may make CB exports not economically feasible.


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## tyler (Feb 23, 2006)

All I can say is that it is going to be a very long process. Good luck getting licenses, paperwork, permits, etc. to be able to move animals across international borders and into the US. There's coming a point in time where this isn't going to be as easy as it once was or is right now. You're going to have A LOT of competitors that already import very healthy and vet inspected animals, not to mentioned the WC trade, which honestly, more people seem to lean more towards because of the increase it brings in genetic diversity. It's very tricky.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

So take this with a grain of salt - but I heard through the "grapevine" that Panama is putting the vice on exports soon. So much so that the next import will be the last for a while. Something like maybe ~300 a year.

Now, from a conservationalist's standpoint, this might be good. When I was in Bocas, there were several people who told that just 10 years ago, Bastimentos was crawling with frogs. Now? I saw very few. 

Edit: Panama cut the quota to 200 a shipment. Prices will go up, supply will go down.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

ChRoMiS said:


> Hi, guys I am looking into opening a herp farm in south america.
> Looking for you guys opinions on the project.
> 
> 
> I have looked into Panama mainly because it is one of the most stable countries in SA and buying land there is safer.


Panama is a country in the southern part of Central America, not South America.

Good luck, please keep us up to date with how this aspiration transpires.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

BrainBug said:


> Panama is a country in the southern part of Central America, not South America.
> 
> Good luck, please keep us up to date with how this aspiration transpires.


Semantics.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Accuracy.

Especially if you want people to contribute to your conversation.

s


cml1287 said:


> Semantics.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Scott said:


> Accuracy.
> 
> Especially if you want people to contribute to your conversation.
> 
> s


The exclusion of a "central American" label, especially when one could easily descern the intention of the original post, shouldn't discount anything that's been posted since.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Government paperwork relies on semantics, or have you not dealt with it? If the OP starts filling out forms and listing Panama as being in South America, they will have a bad time. In a forum post, yes, we all typically know what a poster means, even if it's not quite what they said. But when you're dealing with governments, it pays to be precise. And, in a more general sense, wouldn't you rather be corrected and learn something then go around being wrong your whole life?


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## Steuss (Apr 20, 2016)

Something you may want to keep in the back of your head while thinking on moving forward:

With the recent leak of the “Panama papers,” it’s still unknown whether any countries will try to exert any type of international pressures upon Panama, or if Panama will bend by such pressures. It’s definitely an unknown as far as probability, but the possibility is lingering that Panama could potentially tighten up requirements for company/business formation (especially by foreign nationals, and/or recently patriated citizens).

At least that's this feller's opinion. Best of luck though -- always exciting when someone chases their dreams and tries to make them a reality.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Costa Rica has a much better reputation for being stable and friendly to American business interests.




ChRoMiS said:


> I have looked into Panama mainly because it is one of the most stable countries in SA and buying land there is safer.


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## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Vinegaroonie said:


> I honestly have no idea, however, I believe it is pretty tricky to get any sort of export permit from any South American country. Doable, but tricky. One day I'd love to do the same thing, you're very lucky to even be able to consider doing this. Pretty ambitious and I hope you can do it!
> 
> What herps will you be breeding? Do you plan to export all of them? What experience do you have with herp husbandry? Be careful not to jump in, this kind of thing has to be done the right way or should not be done at all.
> 
> ...


Well I do have quite extensive herp husbandry skills having kept many species over the years.

I plan on breeding amphibians like RETF, darts and bolitoglossa salamanders.
I plan on breeding reptiles like anolis, basilisks, gtb, micro geckos etc.
I plan on cultivating endemic plants through tissue culture.
I would like to be able to export all of them eventually but setting up a well though out facility is priority number 1.

I will be volunteering at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute to see how they operate aswell as working with Dr. Peter Lahanas in Bocas at the ITEC research station. I plan on doing a couple of courses with him aswell to get a good experience base in field.

My main objective is to save the frogs from the Bocas Region. 
It has been said above , there is nowhere as many frogs as there was 10 years ago, they are building at an alarming rate and most of the frogs there will be gone in a couple of years imo.




Spaff said:


> Considering the flood of pumilio constantly coming out of Panama, it probably isn't all that hard to get permits for exports.
> 
> On the flip side of that same coin, the fact that WC exports are still allowed may make CB exports not economically feasible.


That was my inital though, with so many wild caughts coming out there must be a way to get the permits. 

To stay economically feasible I plan on breeding other species of herps not just darts, my focus on darts would be to offer legal CB frogs from the region because there is simply no source for quality frogs in Panama.

I know many people would rather get some F1 or F2 that are tested and healthy then a possible infected WC frog. WC is always a higher risk.



tyler said:


> All I can say is that it is going to be a very long process. Good luck getting licenses, paperwork, permits, etc. to be able to move animals across international borders and into the US. There's coming a point in time where this isn't going to be as easy as it once was or is right now. You're going to have A LOT of competitors that already import very healthy and vet inspected animals, not to mentioned the WC trade, which honestly, more people seem to lean more towards because of the increase it brings in genetic diversity. It's very tricky.


The process doesn't scare me, filling paperwork and dealing with governement is what I do all the time right now. I am still young and willing to sacrifice time for this project. I won't back out of it thats for sure. Sometimes you just gotta take the plunge and being scared by this and that doesn't help.

Plus I will also be working in close relations with the local research institutes aswell as Mark Pepper from UE, I have talked to him about this project and would like to have him involved kinda like with tesoros and wikiri. We can all work hand in hand, I don't see other breeders as competion but more like colleagues.
I am sure with backing, I will be able to get the proper paperwork in order.

The land I am planning to buy has an old research institute on it. I will register as such.
I plan on organizing herp tours & take in volunteers and researchers to make it a economically viable project.




BrainBug said:


> Panama is a country in the southern part of Central America, not South America.
> 
> Good luck, please keep us up to date with how this aspiration transpires.


Yes I know that but for the purpose of this post, and because I am not decided on the country I plan on doing my farm in, I have included both SA & CA in the equation.



Steuss said:


> Something you may want to keep in the back of your head while thinking on moving forward:
> 
> With the recent leak of the “Panama papers,” it’s still unknown whether any countries will try to exert any type of international pressures upon Panama, or if Panama will bend by such pressures. It’s definitely an unknown as far as probability, but the possibility is lingering that Panama could potentially tighten up requirements for company/business formation (especially by foreign nationals, and/or recently patriated citizens).
> 
> At least that's this feller's opinion. Best of luck though -- always exciting when someone chases their dreams and tries to make them a reality.


This was one of my concerns aswell, but from what I have read Panama has never backed down under foreign pressure.
Their whole economy is based on banking privacy, I don't think they would ever change that.
Plus I would be a 100% Panamanian company and pay my taxes in panama not trying to evade taxes from another country by creating a fake paper corporation in panama. I think it is 2 totally different situations.

I have also looked into Costa Rica but knowing there is already a good breeder of CB frogs there I wanted to become the Panamanian alternative.


Anyone with actual import/export experience from any CA or SA country ?
I am looking for information from people who have experience exporting/importing and are willing to share their knowledge.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

I don't know if you have seen these videos, but if you haven't, they have a lot of information about starting a project like yours. It's Ivan from Tesoros de Colombia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HNPr0eDc3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qbqWQu79y4

I'm actually travelling to Costa Rica this June, to Puerto Viejo de Talmanaque, which is as close to Panama as you can get there, and I am hoping to be able to visit the Costa Rican Amphibian Research Center while there. I see you are set on Panama, but I could potentially get information about the process of beginning a conservation operation from the couple who runs it, and they may even be familiar with some of Panama's requirements. If you're interested, let me know.

Josh


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## Redeye_Mar (Feb 23, 2013)

ChRoMiS said:


> Hi, guys I am looking into opening a herp farm in south america.



Sounds amazing. Do you need help?


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## hp192 (Feb 28, 2016)

Just some general observations from someone who lived and worked in South America for a decade:

1) I don't think you need or want to get citizenship in another country...it exposes you to a huge variety of issues. 

2) Doing business overseas can be very tricky. Not to generalize, but in my personal experience, there is a lot of graft, obscure laws, etc... You're going to really have to do your homework before committing completely. I would highly recommend hiring an attorney or two in the country you intend to do this is in and get the whole plan laid out with all necessary documents, permits, etc... You may also want to hire an attorney here in the States to help navigate some of the import/export laws regarding exotics.

3) The wheels of bureaucracy can move EXTREMELY slowly in some of these countries...be prepared for this to take significantly longer that you expect.

Good luck and I'll be curious to see how it all turns out.


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## surferseatsharks (Jan 19, 2016)

I have a cousin that is something of a frog expert and he has spent a considerable amount of time in both Panama and CR, he would definitely recommend CR as there is a great deal less anti-American bias there. The Panamanians still are not great fans of the gringos. I personally have spent a lot of time in CR and spent time with entomological collectors and they were convinced that if you are legitimate CR is not that hard to deal with (the USFWS is another matter). In CR you can be a dual citizen and have equal legal footing with others in the country. CR is a very stable country and they have a literacy rate equal to that of the US. You can even buy property in CR using a title company, many of which are US affiliates. Banking wire transfers to and from the US are common and easy.


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## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

jarteta97 said:


> I don't know if you have seen these videos, but if you haven't, they have a lot of information about starting a project like yours. It's Ivan from Tesoros de Colombia:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HNPr0eDc3k
> 
> ...


I haven't seen these,THANKS! really inspiring.
I am not SET on Panama but having no CB source for frogs there I wanted to fill in that gap. 

If Panama proves difficult from the start ( as many of you are suggesting) then I'll change destination. I am looking for information and not set on anything.

If you do end up going to CARC, I would be more than interested in any info you can get out of them .
Take alot of pictures of installations etc. that would be really helpfull too.



Redeye_Mar said:


> Sounds amazing. Do you need help?


Of course, anybody who is willing to help is welcome. I am also looking for associates if that's what you were talking about.





hp192 said:


> Just some general observations from someone who lived and worked in South America for a decade:How would I proceed to be able to work there? I currently work online and would like to be able to work there legally. what visas do you need ? Can you descrive the process you went through?
> 
> 1) I don't think you need or want to get citizenship in another country...it exposes you to a huge variety of issues. can you elaborate on this? I already have dual citizenship, i have 2 passports, Canada and France. Would I have to forfit one? What issues can one encounter?
> 
> ...





surferseatsharks said:


> I have a cousin that is something of a frog expert and he has spent a considerable amount of time in both Panama and CR, he would definitely recommend CR as there is a great deal less anti-American bias there. The Panamanians still are not great fans of the gringos. I personally have spent a lot of time in CR and spent time with entomological collectors and they were convinced that if you are legitimate CR is not that hard to deal with (the USFWS is another matter). In CR you can be a dual citizen and have equal legal footing with others in the country. CR is a very stable country and they have a literacy rate equal to that of the US. You can even buy property in CR using a title company, many of which are US affiliates. Banking wire transfers to and from the US are common and easy.


I have also been looking into Costa Rica. 
Being of Spanish decent I don't think I would encounter that much "heat" but I am prepared for the cultural clash I might experience moving to a place like that.
If CR is easier to deal with than Panama, then I'll go towards the path of least resistance.



Anybody have experience becoming an expat there? This whole moving to a new place can be quite scary if you don't have any info on the process. What kind of visas should I get ? how do you open a business etc..

I'll probably end up getting a lawyer anyways but having some real people share their experience would be great.


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## hp192 (Feb 28, 2016)

Regarding your questions to my comments:

1) When I lived and worked in South America, all of my businesses were in the name of my spouse, who was a citizen of the country, so I didn't have to deal with work visas, etc... In fact, I was specifically NOT allowed to work for a salary, according to my visa.

2) Regarding citizenship, some countries require all MALE citizens to have served in the military for a couple years (this is usually taken care of via 'payments' to the necessary authorities). Some countries require all of their citizens to vote...if a citizen doesn't vote, he loses his passport and all rights as a citizen. There are some interesting laws down there...very different that US, Canada and EU. I think you're looking more for a work visa than citizenship. 

3) Regarding exportation for the originating country, you MUST seek legal advice in this area. Laws and regulations down there are not usually easily available online and Customs officials can often (how shall I say this delicately?) make their own laws as they go depending on how much money they need or think you have.

Good Luck. You'll also need a tax guy here in the States, FYI that deals with expats...your earnings could be taxable here in States as well as down there.


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## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

hp192 said:


> Regarding your questions to my comments:
> 
> 1) When I lived and worked in South America, all of my businesses were in the name of my spouse, who was a citizen of the country, so I didn't have to deal with work visas, etc... In fact, I was specifically NOT allowed to work for a salary, according to my visa.From what I read on Panama, it is the same thing, i won't be able to work on salary but If i were to create a business that option seems doable.
> 
> ...


Anyone know of people who have done such a move? please share your experience.


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Sure Euan Edwards, Australian citizen that moved to Madagascar married a native woman then started an export company for reptiles-birds and some plants.


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## Auri (Jan 7, 2016)

I don't have any useful comments into the feasibility of this project, although it sounds like an awesome idea if executed well. 

However, I noticed you mentioned the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute. That place is amazing, and actually what tipped me over the edge from having a vivarium full of lovely orchids into keeping frogs. Of course now I'm kicking myself. If I'd been into the hobby before, I could have done SO MUCH COOL STUFF while I was in Costa Rica and Panama, and I definitely would have planned for more time at the Smithsonian. Hindsight: My only 20/20 vision.


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## lsuvr (Jul 17, 2013)

Hi,

Take a look at this http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/IW3P/IB/2004/08/19/000112742_20040819155013/Rendered/PDF/298490POISON0DART0FROG0MSP.pdf

Its a business plan for setting a a poison frog range in peru.


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## Armson (Sep 8, 2008)

lsuvr said:


> Hi,
> 
> Take a look at this http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/IW3P/IB/2004/08/19/000112742_20040819155013/Rendered/PDF/298490POISON0DART0FROG0MSP.pdf
> 
> Its a business plan for setting a a poison frog range in peru.


Somebody put a lot of time and effort into that proposal. 

-B


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Yes - Jan Post and Rainer Schulte.

You also need to note that, despite the "amazing" planning, it failed.

s


Armson said:


> Somebody put a lot of time and effort into that proposal.
> 
> -B


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

lsuvr said:


> Hi,
> 
> Take a look at this http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/IW3P/IB/2004/08/19/000112742_20040819155013/Rendered/PDF/298490POISON0DART0FROG0MSP.pdf
> 
> Its a business plan for setting a a poison frog range in peru.


That's amazing!


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## Armson (Sep 8, 2008)

Scott said:


> Yes - Jan Post and Rainer Schulte.
> 
> You also need to note that, despite the "amazing" planning, it failed.
> 
> s


The proposal failed or the business failed? 


-B


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