# automatic dart frog feeder?



## sgabyss (Mar 21, 2012)

I have some ideas swirling around my little noggin about a diy fruit fly auto-feeder for my dart viv. I was thinking about having fruit fly breeding containers that have access to the tank (but not outside world) through a screen. This would allow the flys to reproduce in safety and wander out into the tank to be eaten. It would require at least two identical containers so that you can swap them out (like a refill cartridge every couple weeks. 

I don't wan to reinvent the wheel here, so do you know of any existing plans for an auto-feeder?

Thx


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

What about the necessity of dusting your flies with calcium and vitamins?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I know SE fruit flies has an in-viv automatic feeder that they sell.

Also, a big obstacle to having flies so close to a viv would be mites. Vivs are mite factories.


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

i don't know about your cultures but in my cultures the flies like to hang out towards the top of the container. I would think the majority of the flies would leave the container in go into the viv as soon as given the chance. Could lead to a overload of flies in your viv?


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

I have to agree with Doug. Vitamin and mineral supplements are an important part of the feeding schedule and making it fully automatic without including that is probably anti-productive.

On the flip side, it sounds like it could be a great thing to have handy for vacations/business trip and that sort of thing but probably not something I'd use regularly.


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## sgabyss (Mar 21, 2012)

Those are all great concers you all bring up. but i figure that this diy comunity should be able to overcome 

someone mentioned se fruit flies auto feeders, so i tracked down the link.

Auto feeders

after reading the description, it sounds like a standard plastic container with a whole in the lid. I think a more elegant design should be possible.

So tell me about how/when you all apply vits and minerals?


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

the way i do it is i put the vitamin powder into a cup, pour some fruit flies into the cup, shake it around until they are all covered then pour the flies in without getting too much excess vitamin powder into my viv. i do this for every feeding


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

There is no getting around dusting your flies. It is an absolute necessity. Without dusting your flies with calcium and vitamins, your frogs WILL die. It's just a matter of time.
You can NOT simply add the calcium and vitamins to your fruit fly media. The flies can not store many of the suppliments and other vitamins they will store hundreds or thousands the amount that they should have. This excessive sequestering of certain vitamins (like Tocopherol/vitamin E) will additionally block other vitamins from being properly used. i.e. the tocopherol sequestering will block the vitamin A and D3. The lack of D3 would make any calcium completely Un-useable by your frogs, but that is a moot point anyway, because with this system you are not getting any calcium to your frogs.

SE Fruit Flies "auto feeder" is for vacations only. If used long term, your frogs will die.

This community has already overcome the shortcomings of the incomplete nutrition problem. It is through regularly dusting your fruit flies with a good dusting supplement like Repashy Calcium Plus.
Sorry if this comes across as curt but I am saving you the wasted time and the heartache of dead frogs. Plain and simple, your system will NOT work. You HAVE to dust your flies. If don't have the time or inclination to feed your frogs properly, this hobby is not for you.


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## itsott (Nov 25, 2010)

Ive been reading up on these wondering if they would work. I am going on a 5 day vacation soon and thinking about using some. But i have a misting system. Any thoughts?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

itsott said:


> Ive been reading up on these wondering if they would work. I am going on a 5 day vacation soon and thinking about using some. But i have a misting system. Any thoughts?


Unless there is something wrong with the frogs a five day fruit fly fast will not harm them in the least particularly if you have microfauna established in the tank. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There have been many variations on automatic feeders over the years but unless there have been special modifications to the enclosures (for example supplying UVB for the frogs to behaviorally regulate circulating levels of D3 metabolites by supplying UVB transparent materials (like Solacryl)), then you can't get totally away from dusting. The frogs can get by without the supplementation for short periods of time but will start to deplete levels of fat soluble vitamins to sustain body condition until they become deficient with all of the accompanying issues (infertility, spindly leg, short tongue syndrome, seizures, increased susceptiability to infections, death etc). This is also before we begin to consider the issues with the water soluble vitamins which are not stored in the frog's tissues. 

Attempting to increase the nutritional level of the flies has been discussed repeatedly along with relevent citations of the research literature (since nutritonal impacts on flies have been heavily researched over the decades of laboratory rearing..) and this is before we consider the impact that adding supplements to a moist warm enviroment where they are acted on by enzymes secreted by the fly larva, bacteria, and yeast... We already know that the shelf life of supplements is relatively short in no small part because even at room temperature the vitamins begin to oxidize and decompose which changes the ratios and can result in conditional deficiencies for the frogs (much less the flies), we know that flies do not uptake and store D3 (it is digested and converted to cholesterol), that they do not uptake and store vitamin A (more than is needed to make sufficient rhodopsin in the eyes) but they do avidly uptake and store vitamin E to levels that can be hundreds of times greater than is present in the media.. vitamin A, D3 and E all compete for uptake in the digestive tract and if the ratio changes much from 10 to 1 to 0.1 of A to D3 to E, you get conditional deficiencies (such as "MBD"... 

So in the short term you can get away with not supplementing the frogs, but be aware that skipping the dusting regimen over the course of time is an issue... 

Ed


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## itsott (Nov 25, 2010)

Even with froglets?


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

i would think dusting is even more important with froglets so that they grow up nice and strong


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

itsott said:


> Even with froglets?


Obese is obese.. for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...es-week-do-you-feed-your-frogs.html#post82596


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

goof901 said:


> i would think dusting is even more important with froglets so that they grow up nice and strong


Supplementation is based on the frequency of feedings.. It is possible to over supplement the frogs and potentially cause toxicity. This is one possible (need necropsies in individual cases to determine if indeed was the case) scenario why random frogs suddenly develop "bloating" (aka ascites) since over supplementation of D3 can damage the kidneys and liver... There is data out there that documents that flies retain a greater amount of supplements than is needed to actually correctly balance the nutritional levels (see the Nutrition Chapter in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery). The author of that chapter broke down the frequency of dusting based on the frequency of feeding.. if feeding three or more times a week the complete supplements were rotated with straight calcium carbonate. If feeding 2 times a week or less, the feeders were dusted at every feeding with the complete supplements (this was while I worked at the Zoo under Dr. Kevin Wright (one of the author/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry in collaboration with Dr. S. Donoghue (who wrote the nutriton chaper in Mader's text)). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

so basically just dust the flies every other time if i feed daily?


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

goof901 said:


> i would think dusting is even more important with froglets so that they grow up nice and strong


I have no knowledge about these processes in amphibians, but in humans (that's us for those needing a reminder  ) inadequate nutrition during periods of growth and development can lead to stunted skelatal growth and organ development, which can be permanent. I would imagine that to be true for amphibians, including dart frogs, although the results of lack of nutrition would manifest differently...?

Jake


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thank you Ed, you have all the reasons and the data to back it!


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Ed said:


> Unless there is something wrong with the frogs a five day fruit fly fast will not harm them in the least particularly if you have microfauna established in the tank.
> 
> Ed


Wondering why the Microfauna does not need to be dusted also..?? 

Would it not stand to reason that like Fruit Flies they would lack natural nutrients... after all they are what they eat..and since Fruit Flies are feed a diet designed to ensure they have rich nutrients still have insufficient nutrients without having to dust according to so many?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jpstod said:


> Wondering why the Microfauna does not need to be dusted also..??
> 
> Would it not stand to reason that like Fruit Flies they would lack natural nutrients... after all they are what they eat..and since Fruit Flies are feed a diet designed to ensure they have rich nutrients still have insufficient nutrients without having to dust according to so many?


It was stated that it's not a problem to go without dusting for short periods of time, for instance a weeks vacation. If you fed nothing but undusted microfauna, it would become an issue.


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

here's my opinion on microfauna and dart frog diet.

Your microfauna, lets use springtails for this example are more there for cleanup duty. They feed on the mold and decaying plant life (leaf litter). The bonus is that they also become food for your frogs. They should already be in your tank, so you really can't dust them. You are kind of defeating the purpose of microfauna if you are keeping them out of your viv and dusted them and threw them in the tank for an immediate feeding. Because when you dust insects it only stays on for so long. Watch closely at fruit flies when you throw them in the viv after dusting them and watch what they do. Most will start trying to clean themselves off. And if your frogs don't eat everything you throw at them quickly look back in the tank about 30 minutes to an hour later, you'll see FF's that are no longer sporting the dust bath you gave them.

A diet of microfauna and FF's does this for you. The FF's are what you want to dust to provide your frogs with the stuff they need. The microfauna in the viv give your frogs a constant food supply should they choose to eat and also perform clean up duties for you to an extent.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

J Teezy said:


> Because when you dust insects it only stays on for so long. Watch closely at fruit flies when you throw them in the viv after dusting them and watch what they do. Most will start trying to clean themselves off. And if your frogs don't eat everything you throw at them quickly look back in the tank about 30 minutes to an hour later, you'll see FF's that are no longer sporting the dust bath you gave them.


I believe I remember Ed mentioning somewhere that it usually takes between 6-12 hours for most of the vitamins to be cleaned off. Obviously there are some variables in that (like what kind of powder it is and if you are misting) but there's a pretty decent window where the frogs will still benefit from the vitamins on the flies.




J Teezy said:


> The FF's are what you want to dust to provide your frogs with the stuff they need. The microfauna in the viv give your frogs a constant food supply should they choose to eat and also perform clean up duties for you to an extent.


I don't think anyone was arguing that. The OP was trying to come up with an idea to have fruit flies in a feeding system. The problem with that idea is there is no effective way to supplement a fruit fly feeder system with the vitamins.

There are issues with this on 2 levels. First, how do you come up with a method to dust those flies emerging from the feeder culture. Second, how do you find a way to measure that supplementation? As Ed pointed out, over supplementation can be detrimental as well. 

I hate how off track some of these threads get... but I have to ask Ed about this one:


Ed said:


> This is one possible (need necropsies in individual cases to determine if indeed was the case) scenario why random frogs suddenly develop "bloating" (aka ascites) since over supplementation of D3 can damage the kidneys and liver... There is data out there that documents that flies retain a greater amount of supplements than is needed to actually correctly balance the nutritional levels (see the Nutrition Chapter in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery). The author of that chapter broke down the frequency of dusting based on the frequency of feeding.. if feeding three or more times a week the complete supplements were rotated with straight calcium carbonate.


this makes me worry that we are in fact over supplementing our newly morphed frogs. It is common practice to feed froglets every day or every other day. Should we be employing the same strategy mentioned above and alternate straight calcium carbonate with the normal complete vitamin mixes?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

J Teezy said:


> here's my opinion on microfauna and dart frog diet.
> 
> Your microfauna, lets use springtails for this example are more there for cleanup duty. They feed on the mold and decaying plant life (leaf litter). The bonus is that they also become food for your frogs. They should already be in your tank, so you really can't dust them. You are kind of defeating the purpose of microfauna if you are keeping them out of your viv and dusted them and threw them in the tank for an immediate feeding. Because when you dust insects it only stays on for so long. Watch closely at fruit flies when you throw them in the viv after dusting them and watch what they do. Most will start trying to clean themselves off. And if your frogs don't eat everything you throw at them quickly look back in the tank about 30 minutes to an hour later, you'll see FF's that are no longer sporting the dust bath you gave them.


With respect to microfauana in the tank and flies, between how the vast majority of enclosures are set up (calcium poor substrates (ABG, ground coconut hulls, sphagnum over gravel), insufficient carotenoid variety for the invertebrates, and a lack of ability to modify thier circulating levels of D3 metabolites, we have to supply the missing nutrients in some manner.. the most convient is through dusting. 
Fruit flies do groom off the powders but data (again by Dr. Donoghue) shows that it can actually take up to 12 hours to groom *all* of the powders off of the flies (and keep in mind that the flies retain excess vitamin powder in comparision to thier body than do say crickets). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> I don't think anyone was arguing that. The OP was trying to come up with an idea to have fruit flies in a feeding system. The problem with that idea is there is no effective way to supplement a fruit fly feeder system with the vitamins.


Particularly when we know exposure to moisture increases the breakdown of the vitamins.. 



carola1155 said:


> I hate how off track some of these threads get... but I have to ask Ed about this one:
> 
> this makes me worry that we are in fact over supplementing our newly morphed frogs. It is common practice to feed froglets every day or every other day. Should we be employing the same strategy mentioned above and alternate straight calcium carbonate with the normal complete vitamin mixes?


Rotating the dustings is a personal choice when the same thing can be accomplished by decreasing the feedings. I have a hard time believing that the majority of the flies in a froglet tank much less all of them have been consumed before the next batch is dumped into the tank... It has been my experience that in a fruit fly tight cage, that you can still find flies at least two or three days post feeding. 

In addition to the potential of oversupplementing we should also consider that excess calories could be contributing to the smaller adult size than we see in many of the imported frogs (tinctorius group for example) since fat availability is one of the factors that determines when reproduction can begin (there is a threshold size in many amphibian taxa) and once reproduction begins, resources that would otherwise be allocated to growth are diverted to reproduction resulting in a decreased growth pattern (particularly when there is no break in the breeding season as we see in the wild populations). 

Ed


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Ed said:


> Fruit flies do groom off the powders but data (again by Dr. Donoghue) shows that it can actually take up to 12 hours to groom *all* of the powders off of the flies (and keep in mind that the flies retain excess vitamin powder in comparision to thier body than do say crickets).
> 
> Ed


It has been my experience that the majority (>50%) of supplements are cleaned off by the flies within 45 minutes. Just my observation, I doubt there have been any definitive studies.
Ed, did point out there are several factors that will affect this, such as particle size and humidity. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/61798-truth-about-panacur-2-0-a-15.html#post583786

I think how your frogs feed needs to be taken into consideration when determining how often to dust. really bold frogs that are going to gobble down the flies as soon as they are dropped in, should be dusted less. But those frogs you rarely see, should be dusted more frequently.
I was talking to Marcus Breece yesterday. He said he places all the flies in a wide mouth bottle and waits for them all to suffocate for a while. This gives his frogs more time to pick them off one by one as they wake up, and it cuts down on the number of escapees.
I would think this method would require less supplementation as well.


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## sgabyss (Mar 21, 2012)

thats interesting about the micro fauna... is it because it provides some breeding ground for insects/mites? and what would you say is the most common micro-fauna?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> It has been my experience that the majority (>50%) of supplements are cleaned off by the flies within 45 minutes. Just my observation, I doubt there have been any definitive studies.
> Ed, did point out there are several factors that will affect this, such as particle size and humidity.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-truth-about-panacur-2-0-a-15.html#post583786
> 
> ...


There has been at least one study done on it (Dr. S. Donoghue) and it is unpublished except for the discussion in Mader's Text on Reptile Medicine and Surgery. 

It is well known that the flies retain enough supplements that they can potentially contain damaging levels of fat soluble vitamins so even a 50% grooming doesn't mean that it has been sufficient to result in an a swing to where the flies are actually insufficiently supplemented...

Ed


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## sgabyss (Mar 21, 2012)

So, getting to the point: how to automate dusting flys and releasing them into the tank. 

I was originally thinking they could just crawl out through a screen, however the need for vitamin dusting makes me now think of a two stage process. What if flys craled out of the hatching container into somekind of a second stage (still sealed from tank at this point). there would be some kind of rotating doser over this second stage which would release a measured amount of vits, and then the whole second stage would rotate to cover the fruit flys. Lastly the opening to the tank is opened.

I bet if all you smart diy frog people put your minds to it there is a simplified system somewhere here.


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

sgabyss said:


> I bet if all you smart diy frog people put your minds to it there is a simplified system somewhere here.


There is, all you need is a spoon and a cup then a little flick of the wrist and poof, perfectly dusted flies. And it works every time...


It can't get any simpler. 

Casper


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ghost vivs said:


> There is, all you need is a spoon and a cup then a little flick of the wrist and poof, perfectly dusted flies. And it works every time...
> 
> 
> It can't get any simpler.
> ...


Hire little elves to do it. Or smurfs. But smurfs would be a distraction from the frogs coz they're bright blue. And I think they're unionized. Unsafe working environment bla bla bla.

Jake


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sgabyss said:


> So, getting to the point: how to automate dusting flys and releasing them into the tank.
> 
> I was originally thinking they could just crawl out through a screen, however the need for vitamin dusting makes me now think of a two stage process. What if flys craled out of the hatching container into somekind of a second stage (still sealed from tank at this point). there would be some kind of rotating doser over this second stage which would release a measured amount of vits, and then the whole second stage would rotate to cover the fruit flys. Lastly the opening to the tank is opened.
> 
> I bet if all you smart diy frog people put your minds to it there is a simplified system somewhere here.


And this suggestion is totally ignoring the increased oxidation of the supplements as they are exposed to heat, moisture, air and light... This disrupts the ratios that are important for uptake. It is strongly recommended to not keep supplements in their own container near a frog tank much less one that is going to be directly exposing it to moisture and other issues known to cause mess with it faster. 

Ed


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## R&Mfroggers (Mar 10, 2012)

i like that idea it would be supreme if you could find a way to instal a shelf in the container that you could pore the powder in and would require the flies to walk thru it before reaching the exiting tube I'm thinking a cap with a cut to fit and hot glue


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

R&Mfroggers said:


> i like that idea it would be supreme if you could find a way to instal a shelf in the container that you could pore the powder in and would require the flies to walk thru it before reaching the exiting tube I'm thinking a cap with a cut to fit and hot glue


the flies could just walk around it, like upside down on the top of the tube since you can't put supplements there. also the high humidity will negatively affect the supplements. read this post


Ed said:


> And this suggestion is totally ignoring the increased oxidation of the supplements as they are exposed to heat, moisture, air and light... This disrupts the ratios that are important for uptake. It is strongly recommended to not keep supplements in their own container near a frog tank much less one that is going to be directly exposing it to moisture and other issues known to cause mess with it faster.
> 
> Ed


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

R&Mfroggers said:


> i like that idea it would be supreme if you could find a way to instal a shelf in the container that you could pore the powder in and would require the flies to walk thru it before reaching the exiting tube I'm thinking a cap with a cut to fit and hot glue


Just walking through the powder won't work to cover the flies. If feeding frogs every few days is to hard or you don't have the time, don't get dart frogs...


Casper


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## R&Mfroggers (Mar 10, 2012)

yea i didn't even think of the humidity, that would ruin it. but as i alway say if there is a will there is a way


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

R&Mfroggers said:


> yea i didn't even think of the humidity, that would ruin it. but as i alway say if there is a will there is a way


Like hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of miniaturized refrigeration and de-humidification?


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## R&Mfroggers (Mar 10, 2012)

that just may work, one thing is for sure there is no pinching pennies in this hobby 2 weeks ago i dumped 1300+ in to an 36x18x18 exo-tera viv.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

With all the automated misting systems, environmental control systems and now a want for an automated feeding system, I have to know how you plan on interacting with and observing your frogs? Most froggers do a double duty when they mist and feed their frogs, it's also an opportunity to observe their frogs and make sure everyone is healthy and eating well. If with all the automated systems you reduce that contact time to just walking past the viv then what's the point of having frogs? I think for many of us our "frog time" is a bit of a stress relief and a way to decompress at the end of the day. Time is always tight, there is never enough of it. But we make time, because our frogs are that important to us. Just my thoughts.


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## R&Mfroggers (Mar 10, 2012)

i do agree 100% with you. but when some one gets me thinking i won't let it go until i have evaluated all the possible solutions for the given situation...or until my wife ready to kill me because I'm on the computer all night doing research  but i have my mist king on a timer with a fogger and t5 lights on a timer with an external fluval 206 bio canister filtration system, so if i did put together a successful creation your right ...there would be no point in owning them , i think i wold for get about my babes


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## tackettjerimiah (Nov 3, 2021)

sgabyss said:


> I have some ideas swirling around my little noggin about a diy fruit fly auto-feeder for my dart viv. I was thinking about having fruit fly breeding containers that have access to the tank (but not outside world) through a screen. This would allow the flys to reproduce in safety and wander out into the tank to be eaten. It would require at least two identical containers so that you can swap them out (like a refill cartridge every couple weeks.
> 
> I don't wan to reinvent the wheel here, so do you know of any existing plans for an auto-feeder?
> 
> Thx


Everyone mentioning the supplements we need to add to the FFF's, there is always a way, think salt shaker, or something that would dust as they passed
--THROUGH-->
If you find a successful way, which I hope you do, let us all know! Great thoughts, because it's the same question or solution to my situation, might have to be traveling round IN, OH,MI, Chicago. Weekly, creeps me out to have family friends all up in my home while I'm gone 🤣😖 but required ATM


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## The Hidden Path (12 mo ago)

I actually have had a design dreamed up for this for a while now. Let me see what I can sketch out.


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## The Hidden Path (12 mo ago)

Here is the concept roughly sketched. Basically a motor spins a coiled brush that runs inside a tube. There is an opening where the flies enter the tube and are moved along by the brush. Two additional openings under vitamin containers. Sliding doors open on timers to deposit vitamins on the brush, and the flies pick up the dust as they pass through. 


Definitely a lot of details to work out- for example the exact method of connecting fly cups and vitamin containers to the tube, how the doors would open and shut etc. I think it has potential though!


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Honestly, given my experience with traveling while owning pets of various sorts, I have a feeling it'd be significantly easier to just hire a pet sitter, or pay a friend to come over and do it. That way, you can also have someone doing visual check-ins, keeping you updated on how the frogs are doing, with the added bonus of someone going inside your house semi-frequently, which makes your home less of a potential burglary target.

While, in theory, there is certainly a way to construct a system to automatically feed dart frogs, I don't think it would be very cost efficient or size efficient. I don't want to have some noisy mechanical thingamajig hooked up to my dart frog's viv, anyway. Plus, as others have mentioned, if a viv is entirely automatic, you lose half the fun involved in caring for animals, at least IMO, anyway.


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## The Hidden Path (12 mo ago)

ParrotAlex said:


> Honestly, given my experience with traveling while owning pets of various sorts, I have a feeling it'd be significantly easier to just hire a pet sitter, or pay a friend to come over and do it. That way, you can also have someone doing visual check-ins, keeping you updated on how the frogs are doing, with the added bonus of someone going inside your house semi-frequently, which makes your home less of a potential burglary target.
> 
> While, in theory, there is certainly a way to construct a system to automatically feed dart frogs, I don't think it would be very cost efficient or size efficient. I don't want to have some noisy mechanical thingamajig hooked up to my dart frog's viv, anyway. Plus, as others have mentioned, if a viv is entirely automatic, you lose half the fun involved in caring for animals, at least IMO, anyway.


For me 100% of the enjoyment of keeping animals comes from observing them in an environment that closely simulates nature. The less I have to directly interfere the better. 

A modular system with 3D printed parts could be extremely useful for people running a large amount of vivariums and I think it could be done in a visually appealing and practical way.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

The Hidden Path said:


> For me 100% of the enjoyment of keeping animals comes from observing them in an environment that closely simulates nature. The less I have to directly interfere the better.
> 
> A modular system with 3D printed parts could be extremely useful for people running a large amount of vivariums and I think it could be done in a visually appealing and practical way.


Sure, there's merits in wanting to be hands-off/imitate nature, but simply by choosing to keep these animals, we are not keeping them in nature. In a fully natural environment, our frogs would live in spaces far greater than any vivarium i have ever seen constructed, nor would they subsist on a diet of fruit flies- the name _poison _dart frog is worth remembering. Creating an environment similar to nature is essential- but machines that dispense powder-covered fruit flies do not exist in nature, nor is it practical to fit such things native to the same jungles, such as birds, snakes, and jaguars, into our home vivariums. 

Personally, I'd be interested to interview keepers who actually have significant numbers of vivariums and frogs, to see what _their_ opinions on auto-feeders might be. In theory an auto feeder system may be useful for them, but in practice they might not need nor want it. I still haven't seen any economic or practical solutions to the "supplements need to be refrigerated" problem. If you think it can be done, do it! Who knows, maybe it'll end up being a game changer. Personally, though, I remain unconvinced.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I cannot imagine a way that the fruit flies don't die and clog up the tube between the fly cultures and the tank.


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## The Hidden Path (12 mo ago)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I cannot imagine a way that the fruit flies don't die and clog up the tube between the fly cultures and the tank.


The fly cup would probably also have to open and shut during feedings only. The wire running through the tube can be easily removed pulling out all debris for cleaning.


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## The Hidden Path (12 mo ago)

ParrotAlex said:


> Sure, there's merits in wanting to be hands-off/imitate nature, but simply by choosing to keep these animals, we are not keeping them in nature. In a fully natural environment, our frogs would live in spaces far greater than any vivarium i have ever seen constructed, nor would they subsist on a diet of fruit flies- the name _poison _dart frog is worth remembering. Creating an environment similar to nature is essential- but machines that dispense powder-covered fruit flies do not exist in nature, nor is it practical to fit such things native to the same jungles, such as birds, snakes, and jaguars, into our home vivariums.
> 
> Personally, I'd be interested to interview keepers who actually have significant numbers of vivariums and frogs, to see what _their_ opinions on auto-feeders might be. In theory an auto feeder system may be useful for them, but in practice they might not need nor want it. I still haven't seen any economic or practical solutions to the "supplements need to be refrigerated" problem. If you think it can be done, do it! Who knows, maybe it'll end up being a game changer. Personally, though, I remain unconvinced.


At the end of the day everyone's experience with their own hobby is a deeply personal thing and I would never try to tell an experienced hobbyist with many vivariums that they need to switch to an automated system. However, maybe a new hobbyist interested in building a up their collection would find that easier if more options were available that made the logistics easier and more enjoyable for them.

Cooling the vitamins is necessary for sure and something to consider. Maybe a central storage area for the vitamins that feeds out to multiple tubes for individual vivariums. There is always a way!


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

If you are going to be hands off for long enough for something like that to be necessary there real.ly should be someone monitoring the frogs and the tanks anyway.


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## The Hidden Path (12 mo ago)

bulbophyllum said:


> If you are going to be hands off for long enough for something like that to be necessary there real.ly should be someone monitoring the frogs and the tanks anyway.


For me I would always be there even with auto feeders running.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Having worked with a large institution collection for a significant period of time (just short of 20 years) auto feeders using live organisms through the feeder is very likely going to cost more in time and effort than compared to hands on feedings. When using a pelleted food, you can readily control the volume of food without significant effort, live organisms you need a way to control the numbers of food items that are permitted to pass out of the storage portion and ensure that they get into the enclosure in a way the enclosed animal can capture them. Otherwise you are either under feeding or overfeeding. In the hobby the vast majority of frogs and other pets are obese to grossly obese as demonstrated by posted pictures and reproductive efforts far exceeding that of the same species in the wild. 
The described system is going to require significant hands on effort as portions where moisture from the enclosure and culture can get into the system, the flies are going to shed supplements (and if the supplements are colder)and that is going to react with the moisture which is going to encourage microbial spoilage... which will render the hands off claim as moot. 

A one gram frog at 72F requires about 5 flies/day to meet resting metabolic needs, the same frog actively growing/breeding needs @40-60 flies to meet metabolic needs (you can use the formula/tables in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, Krieger Press 2001) but this ignores the fact that the frogs are able to reduce their metabolism thus reducing their caloric need which when accompanied by the fact that most of the frogs are obese to grossly obese periods of up to a week or two are unlikely to even cause significant weight loss. This is also assuming that the enclosure lacks isopods or springtail micro fauna populations or even detrivore mites... 

Some comments

Ed


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