# toluene



## Bokfan1 (Oct 17, 2010)

Does anyone know where to get toluene in the US? Would lowes or HD have it?

Thanks,
Dustin


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Some locations yes, some no. Paint stores often carry it, though. What are you using it for?


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## Bokfan1 (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks, Im thinning out silicone to apply to nylon ropes and cover with peat moss.


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

At least out here in the people's republic of california you can't get it any longer from paint stores or home depot thanks to Cal OSHA -though home depot does stock a product called "industrial maintenance coating thinner" that does thin out silcon resonably well.

Toluene was found at an industrial hardware store though.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Be sure whatever chemical you are using does not leave a residual trace that will harm the frogs. Their skin is highly permeable and soaks in many toxins immediately on contact. 

Please read the Material Safety Data Sheet on this chemical to determine if it is acceptable to use with dart frogs. I strongly recommend not using it:

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Toluene-9927301



> Potential Acute Health Effects:
> 
> Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of
> skin contact (permeator).
> ...


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Earthfrog, the msds sheets provide the hazards of the uncured toluene. It will evaporate fully when exposed to air, so it would not cause any problems. The only question that remains is, does the toluene actually fully dissipate when mixed with silicone? Im trying to find that out at the moment. 
Someone posted a helpful natural alternative in my build thread though, "Klean-Strip Green Turpentine". I'll be looking to use this as it would make application a lot more enjoyable. It still doesnt completely rule out toluene though, as we dont know what happens to it when mixed with silicone.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

GRIMM said:


> Earthfrog, the msds sheets provide the hazards of the uncured toluene. It will evaporate fully when exposed to air, so it would not cause any problems. The only question that remains is, does the toluene actually fully dissipate when mixed with silicone? Im trying to find that out at the moment.
> Someone posted a helpful natural alternative in my build thread though, "Klean-Strip Green Turpentine". I'll be looking to use this as it would make application a lot more enjoyable. It still doesnt completely rule out toluene though, as we dont know what happens to it when mixed with silicone.


Also needed to know is the mix-ratio to be sure none remains in the product and possibly leach from it, any possible chemical by-products or other side effects. I know it was removed from nail polish because of the health hazards.

I was primarily concerned for the sake of the one using it. At the very least, it needs a high-end ventilation mask and heavy duty gloves when using it, for the _human's_ sake. Also, it would be good to be sure that none of the volatile combinations listed on the MSDS occur when it is mixed, and that none of the ones in the silicone are listed as a warning on the MSDS when combined with the toluene.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

You definitely don't want to be breathing evaporating toluene, but as a solvent its not changing the structure of itself OR the silicone


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

frogparty said:


> You definitely don't want to be breathing evaporating toluene, but as a solvent its not changing the structure of itself OR the silicone


I was referring to any products left over from the combination of the two chemicals other than evaporation, if that is known. 
So, is there is no possibility of any other chemical by-products as a result of the combination of the toluene and silicone, besides the other things within the silicone?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't have a chem draw program, but tolene is just a benzene ring with a methyl group off the end. CH3- (methoxide ion) is a super strong base, but I couldnt find a mechanism for silicone solvation where the benzene ring is stripped away. That requires a different reaction, and is definitely possible, because toluene can definitely be stripped of its methyl group to form benzene. Also, adding a benzene ring to the silicone molecule via a substitution reaction would drastically change its properties, making it worthless. Besides, silicones are inert, making a reaction highly unlikely in the first place. Any additives in the silicone are also unlikely to react with the methyl group. However, a perusal of the GE site doesnt easily yield what additives are in what silicone, so I can't really say.

*The curing of the silicone yields acetic acid (vinegar smell) but this is too weak an acid to interact well with toluene*


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

frogparty said:


> I don't have a chem draw program, but tolene is just a benzene ring with a methyl group off the end. CH3- (methoxide ion) is a super strong base, but I couldnt find a mechanism for silicone solvation where the benzene ring is stripped away. That requires a different reaction, and is definitely possible, because toluene can definitely be stripped of its methyl group to form benzene. Also, adding a benzene ring to the silicone molecule via a substitution reaction would drastically change its properties, making it worthless. Besides, silicones are inert, making a reaction highly unlikely in the first place. Any additives in the silicone are also unlikely to react with the methyl group. However, a perusal of the GE site doesnt easily yield what additives are in what silicone, so I can't really say.
> 
> *The curing of the silicone yields acetic acid (vinegar smell) but this is too weak an acid to interact well with toluene*


Also relevant I think would be the particular chemicals within the silicone product, notwithstanding the silicone. 
It would seem that we could consider the rxn of toluene with the following chemicals typically present in the silicone as well. Most assume that the 100 percent silicone means that is all that is in the product; however, this is not the case. Here are some of the additives I found for a similar product, the Dow Corning Aquarium Sealant:

Household Products Database - Health and Safety Information on Household Products



> Ingredients from MSDS/Label
> 
> Acetic acid -----7 percent
> Methyltriacetoxysilane ------ 2 percent
> ...


Do these pose any further issue regarding a rxn with toluene?

This should be part of that consideration, it's from the MSDS I posted above:



> Special Remarks on Explosion Hazards:
> 
> Toluene forms explosive reaction with 1,3-dichloro-5,5-dimethyl-2,4-imidazolididione; dinitrogen tetraoxide; concentrated nitric
> acid, sulfuric acid + nitric acid; N2O4; AgClO4; BrF3; Uranium hexafluoride; sulfur dichloride. Also forms an explosive mixture
> with tetranitromethane.


(This is what I have been trying to get around to talking about.)


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

If toluene is a solvent for a few things, including silicone, wouldn't we already be aware if it causes any kind of "explosive" problematic, weither negligeable or threatning?

I am very happy we have those wonderful tools that internet and forums are... how could we end up with a proper answer to all of this issue? It is greatly helping the hobby in many various ways!

Thanks to our chem herpers on this one


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

the acetic acid is formed by the acetates on contact with air. Acetic acid is extremely weak as far as acids are concerned, and way better than the industrial use silicone that yields hydrochloric acid gas as a curing byproduct.

You would need something much MUCH stronger to be reactive

methyl and ethylacetoxy silane have acetate groups, facilitating the formation of more acetic acid during curing, and these silane groups are responsible for the cross linking that gives each type of silicone its specific properties.I don't see any possible reaction mechanisms there.

Silicone IS siloxanes!! The acetate groups *are * to encourage cross linking (just looked this up)

diatomaceous silica doesn't pose any reaction risks either. I use diatomaceous earth all the time. Just glass basically, which is very non reactive


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Correct... none of the ingredients in the silicone is going to react with toluene. Toluene is pretty stable by itself so it needs some fairly strong chemicals to cause a reaction much less an explosive reaction (and often some significant conditions like refluxing..). 

I can't think of an over the counter mask that you could purchase at one of the big box stores that would give adequate protection against toluene fumes.... so any work should be done in a well ventilated enviroment. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

frogparty said:


> the acetic acid is formed by the acetates on contact with air. Acetic acid is extremely weak as far as acids are concerned, and way better than the industrial use silicone that yields hydrochloric acid gas as a curing byproduct.
> 
> You would need something much MUCH stronger to be reactive
> 
> ...





Ed said:


> Correct... none of the ingredients in the silicone is going to react with toluene. Toluene is pretty stable by itself so it needs some fairly strong chemicals to cause a reaction much less an explosive reaction (and often some significant conditions like refluxing..).
> 
> I can't think of an over the counter mask that you could purchase at one of the big box stores that would give adequate protection against toluene fumes.... so any work should be done in a well ventilated enviroment.
> 
> Ed


Thanks guys for indulging me in the conversation. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with the rest of us to benefit the hobby. I am also glad to be a sounding-board for such information. 

That being said, I'd be very concerned about the health effects of using toluene without a mask. Perhaps holding one's breath for short stints would be good ---in addition to ventilation--- as that is nasty stuff.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

I would think canisters gas mask would be able to filter those fumes but maybe not!
Anyways, it can't be that bad if they're selling it! I will open my garage door, and plug that fan to blow air out!

a big thanks to you guys! I am away from home for easter holidays but am eager to try this out!!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

FwoGiZ said:


> I would think canisters gas mask would be able to filter those fumes but maybe not!
> Anyways, it can't be that bad if they're selling it! I will open my garage door, and plug that fan to blow air out!
> 
> a big thanks to you guys! I am away from home for easter holidays but am eager to try this out!!


They sell anything that they can, and many things are extremely harmful when inhaled/contacted on skin. You have to be careful yourself and not 'trust' the companies doing it for profit. Toluene is very toxic---read the MSDS sheet excerpts and do not inhale it or get it on your skin--there are indeed long-term consequences from it to include poss. cancer and breathing difficulty. 
I have a relative dealing with inhalation pneumonia right now just from scraping debris off his ceiling without a mask on. You don't want any of that as a bonus for setting up your frog tank, believe-you-me. 

(says Mom, take with a grain of salt and the other advice folks give you )


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

And think about the fact that organnic solvents are commonly abused for their intoxicating properties.

My o-chem professor has a great story about a kid who DRANK DMSO(A sulfur containing solvent that stores in your fat) Once he started to lose weight, he reaked like rotten eggs all the time


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

frogparty said:


> And think about the fact that organnic solvents are commonly abused for their intoxicating properties.
> 
> My o-chem professor has a great story about a kid who DRANK DMSO(A sulfur containing solvent that stores in your fat) Once he started to lose weight, he reaked like rotten eggs all the time


Is that what the MSDS sheet calls 'defatting dermatitis'?
Was he slowly dissolving? NAS-TEE
Got any more details (it's pertinent since toluene has similar attibutes  )


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

No defatting dermatitus is the result of working without proper protections with materials that can dissolve/remove the oils from your skin (example detergents can also do this if you are exposed to them for too long). 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> No defatting dermatitus is the result of working without proper protections with materials that can dissolve/remove the oils from your skin (example detergents can also do this if you are exposed to them for too long).
> 
> Ed


I always try to use gloves when working with harsh chemicals or a mask when it calls for it. I got a canister mask for about $30 from Lowe's when I was siliconing my vert during my third trimester. I'm sure the neighbors got a laugh out of a pregnant woman wearing that mask and working on a tank in midsummer on the driveway. My face was too small for the mask to create a seal to keep the vapor out, so I had to work with my jaw open the whole time in order to make the mask seal to my face.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> I always try to use gloves when working with harsh chemicals or a mask when it calls for it. I got a canister mask for about $30 from Lowe's when I was siliconing my vert during my third trimester. I'm sure the neighbors got a laugh out of a pregnant woman wearing that mask and working on a tank in midsummer on the driveway. My face was too small for the mask to create a seal to keep the vapor out, so I had to work with my jaw open the whole time in order to make the mask seal to my face.


Be careful when purchasing and using cheap canister masks. Typically, the canisters in the cheap hardware store masks are for particulates. These masks are useless against most chemicals and vapors. Even cheap masks labeled for paint/pesticide, such as the 3M OV/P95 sold at Lowes, are not effective against all (or even most) pesticides and are completely ineffective against a wide range of chemicals. There is no such thing as an all-in-one canister. Gas masks are effective only if the appropriate canister is installed for the chemical being used. When purchasing canisters/filters, ensure it is rated for the chemical being used.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

edwardsatc said:


> Be careful when purchasing and using cheap canister masks. Typically, the canisters in the cheap hardware store masks are for particulates. These masks are useless against most chemicals and vapors. Even cheap masks labeled for paint/pesticide, such as the 3M OV/P95 sold at Lowes, are not effective against all (or even most) pesticides and are completely ineffective against a wide range of chemicals. There is no such thing as an all-in-one canister. Gas masks are effective only if the appropriate canister is installed for the chemical being used. When purchasing canisters/filters, ensure it is rated for the chemical being used.


I couldn't smell the acetic acid when I was using the silicone and also wearing the canister mask. I know it isn't very toxic but just irritating. However, the absence of smell doesn't mean that you're not breathing it, right, especially with things that have very little or no smell?

I believe they all have an insert within the package that tells you what it blocks or doesn't block. I remember reading on the one I got that it should not be relied upon for protection against airborne germs during an epidemic/quarantine or some-such condition. It makes me wonder for what it was _actually_ useful.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> They sell anything that they can, and many things are extremely harmful when inhaled/contacted on skin. You have to be careful yourself and not 'trust' the companies doing it for profit. Toluene is very toxic---read the MSDS sheet excerpts and do not inhale it or get it on your skin--there are indeed long-term consequences from it to include poss. cancer and breathing difficulty.
> I have a relative dealing with inhalation pneumonia right now just from scraping debris off his ceiling without a mask on. You don't want any of that as a bonus for setting up your frog tank, believe-you-me.
> 
> (says Mom, take with a grain of salt and the other advice folks give you )


I should rephrase my sentence for "it can't be that bad if they're selling it, all you have to do is use it properly..." I obviously know that there are MANY dangerous stuffs that are being sold... but they don't sell any that there is nothing you can do to prevent harms

I would think military grade gas mask would block most if not pretty much anything?
I have an hardcore allergy because of roaches and have sucessfully been using both military and 3M cheapos gas mask!

What is the difference between toluene and turpentine?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

FwoGiZ said:


> I should rephrase my sentence for "it can't be that bad if they're selling it, all you have to do is use it properly..." I obviously know that there are MANY dangerous stuffs that are being sold... but they don't sell any that there is nothing you can do to prevent harms
> 
> I would think military grade gas mask would block most if not pretty much anything?
> I have an hardcore allergy because of roaches and have sucessfully been using both military and 3M cheapos gas mask!
> ...


I would think the military-grade mask is the best you could get since that's what they're made for. You could also get similar ones online. 

And it CAN be that bad if they're selling it. You just have to watch yours. 

They're both petroleum-based. I don't think toluene leaves an oily residue upon evaporation (is this right?), and it seems that it's more toxic than turpentine, and perhaps less flammable. Chemheads, double check this.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

turpenes come from trees(pine frequently) and do not contain a benzene ring, but instead are chains of alkenes (carbons double bonded) with pyrophosphate groups at the end. While toluene doesn't carry an overall charge, the pyropgosphate groups have 3 negatively charged oxygen molecules, making them MUCH more reactive


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> I couldn't smell the acetic acid when I was using the silicone and also wearing the canister mask. I know it isn't very toxic but just irritating. However, the absence of smell doesn't mean that you're not breathing it, right, especially with things that have very little or no smell?
> 
> I believe they all have an insert within the package that tells you what it blocks or doesn't block. I remember reading on the one I got that it should not be relied upon for protection against airborne germs during an epidemic/quarantine or some-such condition. It makes me wonder for what it was _actually_ useful.


A good guide to canister suitability: 

http://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/respiratory_protection.pdf


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

frogparty said:


> While toluene doesn't carry an overall charge, the pyropgosphate groups have 3 negatively charged oxygen molecules, making them MUCH more reactive


??? Did you mean turpenes? Toluene has a methyl group that makes it slightly polar.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I should clarify. Pyrophosphate gropus have incompletely bonded oxygens, creating a more reactive structure. I know the methyl group on toluene makes it SLIGHTLY polar, but nothing in comparison to the polarity of the pyrophosphate groups on the end of an alkene chain.


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