# finally, my big frog tank



## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

i've finally gotten around to building a big frog tank. the only problem is that it is made of wood. so, for those who have done this sort of thing, what is the best way to seal the wood? is a couple coats of KILLZ and then a pond liner the easiest way to seal it all? or am i going to have to mess with epoxy paint? would it work to use swimming pool paint to seal the wood?

http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/a ... FC0036.JPG

this is a start


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Oct 5, 2005)

Seal the inner edges with silicone, then marine epoxy the inside - a
couple of layers should do.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

even if i'm going to have a "pond" in the bottom? it will drain underneath it to the sump, but it will still need to hold 4 inches of water or so. i cant believe the answer is that simple


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Oct 5, 2005)

Thick coats on the bottom just to be on the safe side. I had
mine hold 3" of water for a week during testing - no problems.
I also saw something in HD which may or maynot work - its a pour
on type thick /clear coating. Saw it in near the stains / polyurethane
section. Used for bartops etc.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

this will sound dumb, but can i get the marine epoxy at lowes or home depot? or is it something i'm going to have to special order?


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Oct 5, 2005)

You can get marine epoxy at a marine / boating supply store.
Or you can mail order it. Some folks have used regular ol polyurethane
too but for some reason I dont think it'll hold up in the long run.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2006)

Just to be on the safe side, I would personally probably make the pond area artificially with an area made from either glass or perspex to the hight that you want the water. You can line the material you use with a number of things so you wouldnt even know its there, but it would add that extra bit of protection from the water. If you're planning on using it for a long time, just using the marine epoxy might require you to check it over and re-do areas now and again.

Well thats what I would do, just to be on the safe side


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I would recommend against caulking with silicone then painting over with epoxy. The silicone remains pliable, while the epoxy will come to a harder cure . . . perhaps allowing cracking along the edges. Further, I do not know how well epoxy paint will adhere to silicone.

I have built 3 plywood terraria, one of which is going on 5 years old now. If you did not glue the seams with either polyurethane glue or marine epoxy, then screw them together, I would suggest you consider redoing it or making a shell of fiberglass cloth and resin in the water holding area, as discussed above. I would then coat that with marine epoxy paint, as I have had problems getting fiberglass resin to dry to a waterproof coat due to bubbles while curing.

I have heard of people using pond liners with good success, but have never tried it myself.

While I have seen people use pool paint successfully, those that I have seen done with pool paint were made 20 years ago, before the anti-mold, anti-algae additives were mixed in with the paint. These may be hazardous to your frogs, so I would steer clear of these. I have used the two part tub/sink paint sold at Lowe's to seal terraria (I believe it is now a Rustoleum brand, ~ $15-20), but that was after everything had been coated with fiberglass resin (Bondo brand, along with the fiberglass cloth). That stuff is VERY thin, and I don't know if it will bond well with wood, so I would recommend coating up with fiberglass resin to fill voids before using that particular marine epoxy paint. It does work, though. Otherwise, I have used high grade, thick marine epoxy (polyamid) directly on the wood with good success, as well.

You want to be meticulous and dogged in hunting down all potential holes when coating this, as you only want to do it once. A little extra time now will save you big headaches in the future.

Below is a link to my building journal for one of my plywood terraria.

http://www.frognet.org/gallery/album18

Good luck.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

i'm having trouble finding the marine epoxy paint locally. but i did find some epoxy paint ment for sealing garage floors, is this the same thing? if not, will it work?


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Oct 5, 2005)

Marine epoxy I used was for fiberglass - wasn't really a paint.
It was fairly viscous material. I just didn't use the fiberglass with it.
Homer has a good point about the silicone on the joints - fiberglass
there would probably help.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2006)

i dont think the glass or fiberglass is neccesary for the water area. ive built skiffs before out of plywood and coated them with epoxy. one is over 12 years old and ive never had to add or modify the epoxy.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

2mnytnx said:


> i dont think the glass or fiberglass is neccesary for the water area. ive built skiffs before out of plywood and coated them with epoxy. one is over 12 years old and ive never had to add or modify the epoxy.


I would agree that fiberglass is unnecessary, unless your carcass is not adequately screwed and glued (i.e., not structurally sound), or unless you use an epoxy paint that is not designed to adhere to wood (i.e., the tub and tile paint from Lowe's discussed above, which is intended to adhere to fiberglass or ceramic). 

I have painted wood with a two part epoxy that just flaked off . . . definitely not cool (luckily, I was not painting a terrarium). If you buy good quality marine epoxy intended for boat use, it shouldn't be a problem.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

can i get anyone's opinion who has used the pond liner method?


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

scooter said:


> can i get anyone's opinion who has used the pond liner method?


I don't know of anyone here who has done that (although anyone feel free to contradict and chime in). However, I believe if you try the gardenweb terrarium forum, you might find someone there who has used this method.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

my parents came over this weekend and i successfully convinced them i was building a bookshelf and not a frog tank. i found a link to a place that sells epoxy paint used in fish hatcheries, so it should be safe. i was having trouble finding stuff that didn't have copper in it.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2006)

Im just finishing up a wooden tank now, and i used a pecial type of pond paint from the local pond store. i put 5 layers on (its almost like liquid rubber) and then covered everything in a smooth layer of silicone for extra protection.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

by chance, what was the brand name of it? i might be able to get it at work.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

ok, found some safe paint finally. i had to go through a place that supplies fish hatcheries, but i did it. hopefully, i will have pics of the it painted, sealed, and ready for great stuff soon.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

How big is this thing?

-Solly


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

total size is 3' wide, 2' deep, and 5' tall. but by the time i take off for the lights on the top and the sump underneath for the pumps, it's only 38" tall. 
i've been wanting to do something big like this for along time and finally decided that the only way it was ever going to get done, was to actually just do it


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2006)

This may be a little late, but here is a link to some epoxy paint - 

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fus ... 3/cid/3035

I am planning on using this for a large wood viv that I am working on.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

that's exactly the stuff i went with.


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## mnchartier (May 9, 2005)

Thanks for the link to that epoxy, I am in the process of designing a few large wooden tanks and was looking to use the West Marine epoxy but I ike that this is sold as a kit and do not have to buy the parts seperate.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

quick question for those who have done this. should i drill the holes for the water lines before or after i seal it with the epoxy paint? picks of it ready to be painted should be up by tomorrow night!!!!


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## Guest (Jan 19, 2006)

I would drill them first, and then paint the holes also, just to seal them up.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

ok, paint's ordered, just waiting for it to arrive now

guinness bottle provided to help show the size of the thing.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Looking good, and good taste in beer too!

-Solly


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

thanks. i seem to have the same problem with beer that i do with pets: very expensive taste.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

pics of the door assembly while it's drying.












now onto designing the light system


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2006)

Oh wow, that is big.
I couldn't tell by the first pic. Lookin' good!
I also just noticed your down in carbondale, nice to see another Illi on here. :wink:


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## mnchartier (May 9, 2005)

How are you going to do the door?

I am designing a large corner unit and I am looking for ideas on the door. I am debating between a swing open door or sliding glass. The front of mine will be about 4 feet wide and 3 1/2 feet tall, so it may be a lot of wight for a swinging door.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

yeah, not many of us on here. i used to be from central illinois before i came down here for school. not too far from springfield


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

this is a pic with the door frame on it. (not the same guinness bottle, by the way.) i made the thing all one piece and it fits VERY tightly. i didn't want to mess with hinges, so it will be held in place by a couple of latches. honestly, the way it is designed, it will hold itself in place, but i don't want to risk the door coming off while i'm at work.











this is a pic of one of the corners with the door partially off. hopefully, you can see where the "track" is that the door sits.










i got shipping confirmation on the epoxy paint today, so hopefully by this time next week i'll have it painted and ready for great stuff.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Same bottle = you're not drinking enough beer :wink: :lol: 

I'm curious about the latches--how's this going to work?

-Solly


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

are you kidding? i own PDF's, i can't afford alot of beer  
as for the doors, where the sides of the door overlap the sides of the viv, they will butt up against another piece of wood that is securely attached to the viv. the latches will go from this piece of wood to the door frame so that they, in effect, pull the door closer to the piece of wood. in practice it is a fairly simple thing, but for me to describe it, is terrible.  once i have the door completed, i'll post a pic and hopefully i'll make sense by then.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2006)

scooter said:


> yeah, not many of us on here. i used to be from central illinois before i came down here for school. not too far from springfield


I'm not to far from springfield myself, About a 1/2 hour east in Decatur. I've been to carbodale a couple of times when my friend went to school there. I remeber having a good time, just not much else. :wink:


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

ok the paint is here. but i have forced myself to wait to paint it this weekend, after i get my homework done. half of the lights came in, still waiting on the other two kits.









this has got me thinking, though. i want to add a couple pieces of driftwood sticking out of the walls. would it be better to glue them on or to run a screw through the whole thing and "break the seal" that the epoxy paint created.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Can't wait to see the completed product! looks great so far.


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

How are you constructing the background? If you are going to use foam and such than I wouldn't worry about screwing the pieces of wood in. I would think that anything you can do to not break a seal is best. Just one less place to have a leak. Keep us updated!


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

screw homework, paint goes on tonight. pics to follow!!! :twisted:

just a note, coat one is on and getting ready for coat number two. for those of you who want to do this believe when i say that the warning "use proper ventalation" is not a joke.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

painting is done!!!









and my house no longer smells like paint! i turned just the two lights on and i think that they will be bright enough. i was going to use 4 but it may be overkill in the long run. so now i'm getting ready for foam and wood.

on a side note for those who have ever made a tank. am i the only one who gets an overwhelming sense of euphoria when you realize that the tank you have been dreaming of is actually going to be reality?


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

all foamed up!!!









it might be a couple of days until i start the coco and silcone, but i am still really excited. i just have to find some help to move the thing into my living room


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> would it be better to glue them on or to run a screw through the whole thing and "break the seal" that the epoxy paint created.


Stainless steel screws all the way. I learned the hard way about aheasives and wet wood when the suspended waterfall log in my 25g ended up on the ground. I've since replaced that pane of glass with plywood and am using 1/4" stainless steel lag bolts to hold it in place. As far as seal is concerned, you're probably going to be using enough GS and epoxy/silicone to more than adaquately seal around the screws. If you're in doube just pre drill the hole for the screws and fill them with silicone right before you mount the wood. That way the silicone will cure around the screws and seal them up very well.



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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

man, school really cuts into your frog time and budget. it's almost done!!! i just thought i would shap a quick pic of some of the background work


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2006)

well where's the pic :?:


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

turns out you have to post the pic if you want people to see it. :roll: 










i'm at 15 tubes of silicone at last count, and i have to go get 3 more tonite. hopefully that will be enough to finish


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2006)

it looks good! 

is that long fiber sphagnum mixed in your background material?
have you done that before?


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

yes, and yes. i don't like the look of just coco bedding. it's too plain for me. sometimes i'll mix in some chunks of orchid bak, cork, or coco chunks that i repot my orchids in too. just something to add texture and to break up all the brown. plus it gives the plants something to anchor to.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

*update 3-1-06*

ok here's a quick pick to update people. the drip system is in, background's done, and some of the plants are in. i just need the piece of glass for the front door (coming tomorrow) and to find someone to help move it from my workroom to the front room










looks like my next couple paychecks go for plants


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

That is looking awesome. I forgot, does it have a water feature? I think with lots of leaf litter, some big pieces of wood, and a lot of plants you could have your own mini-rainforest. Since you have the room, it might be interesting to add in rocks. They seem to be under-utilized by many of us aside from pebbles lining the bottoms of streams. Everytime I think of darts in the wild I have this image of azureus hopping amonts some big bolder like rocks along a stream. When used well big rocks can really take a tank to a whole new level. Anyway, there's my rant. I love the tank Scooter!!!

Jordan


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Jordan B said:


> That is looking awesome. I forgot, does it have a water feature? I think with lots of leaf litter, some big pieces of wood, and a lot of plants you could have your own mini-rainforest. Since you have the room, it might be interesting to add in rocks. They seem to be under-utilized by many of us aside from pebbles lining the bottoms of streams. Everytime I think of darts in the wild I have this image of azureus hopping amonts some big bolder like rocks along a stream. *When used well big rocks can really take a tank to a whole new level*. Anyway, there's my rant. I love the tank Scooter!!!
> 
> Jordan


I totally agree... 8)


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

*update 4-28-06*










it's been awhile since i have gotten to work on this, but the semester is winding down so hopefully i can dedicate more time to this. i did learn a very important lesson about glass, though. DO NOT place your hand in the center of a large sheet of glass!!! the sheet will assume that you want it to break at that point and you will have a forearm full of glass shards.

i still am not sure what to put into this tank once it is done though. what would you put into a tank this big? (sorry the pic's kinda bad)


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

looks nice. hope your arms ok.

glad to see i'm not the only guy makeing a viv out of wood 


in reply to some of your earlier posts, i'm useing the pond liner method. i think it should hold up best in the long run unless you want to consider lining in plexiglass. from what i understand, most sealers aren't quite designed to be under water for long amounts of time (like months/years). like polyurethane, it seals well, but if you pour water on it and let it sit for a few hours, it'll soak into the poly.

somebody mentioned useing marine epoxy on a boat that was 12 years old without trouble. but, this displays the above example. if the boat only sits in water for a few hours at a time when its used and then drys, then long term water contact effects might not show at all.

i could easily be wrong about all this though


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

i actually went with the epoxy paint fro aquatic ecosystems. it's used to line ponds in fish hatcheries, so i figured it should hold up well enough. what would you put in a tank that big?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2006)

scooter said:


> i actually went with the epoxy paint fro aquatic ecosystems. it's used to line ponds in fish hatcheries, so i figured it should hold up well enough. what would you put in a tank that big?


Were the costs of ^that^ more or less than the what marine epoxy would have been? 

Sweet viv, BTW!


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

in a big tank, i'd prefer a frog that can do will in groups 

in the 6ft x 2ft x 5ft i'm building, i'm going to get 5 or so luecs and let em breed in it. then thier can be a dozen or so frogs hopping around in it.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

cost wasn't that bad. by the time you figure in shipping it was about $100 for a gallon and the activater. i did 3 coats on the whole thing, plus and extra on the bottom where the water will be and i still have maybe a 1/4 of it left.


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

*update. 7-24-06*










ok, i got rid of my crapy homemade misting system. am going with a mistking one instead. it is such a pain to mist by hand. it needs more plants!!!! but i saw that tropiflora updated the cargo report and that makes me smile  my stanophea hybrids are starting to put on new growth and all the cuttings have atleast one new leaf.

this is going to be the tank that holds the colony of leucs that has been discussed in one of my other posts.


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