# Mite issues in new vivarium



## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Not sure if I’m posting this right or not, but I’m a beginner I don’t even have frogs yet, I’ve been hit with so many issues it’s not even funny, to the point of contemplating giving the entire vivarium and set up away. After months of research I got my vivarium got the kit added plants etc and a few weeks later these bugs showed up crawling everywhere in the viv, I did research and found out they were dirt mites, no problem. Wrong, they are crawling all over the outside of the viv and on the lid I open the doors and I just see them spread and I know I’m squishing them every time, they’re all over the glass inside and outside and my springtails are climbing the glass. I am not a bug person and in all my research nothing was mentioned that the bugs would get out and climb the glass, it’s very gross. My question is what can I do to keep them off the glass/and inside the vivarium if the bugs won’t stay in then I cannot keep the vivarium and it’s already set up and cost $500+ and I’m a student only working one job and still at home so I cannot have a vivarium with bugs crawling all over the outside of it, and I cannot afford to restart completely to get rid of them. So if anyone has advice on how to keep the creatures inside the vivarium it would be much appreciated!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Since you don't have frogs yet, you can let the vivarium dry out some to kill off the mites. Generally speaking, mites will boom when there's an abundance of food and moisture. Then die off after they eat the food source.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Since you don't have frogs yet, you can let the vivarium dry out some to kill off the mites. Generally speaking, mites will boom when there's an abundance of food and moisture. Then die off after they eat the food source.


I’ve let the viv dry out to the point my plants were starting to die and the Sphagnum moss was crunchy but the mite numbers did not go down, I had to mist to save my plants. Do you know of another way? I was told to use olive oil or vinegar and wipe it around the outside because they hate it and would stay in the vivarium but I’m trying to avoid having to paint my vivarium with such a concoction.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Sounds unusual.

Could you post clear photos of the viv -- whole viv shots, closeups, etc? 

Could you say what you have for substrate, where you got the hardscape items, plants, etc.

What microfaune did you add so far?

Please tell a little about what your routine has been for caring for the viv so far -- "misting" (watering), anything else.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Sounds unusual.
> 
> Could you post clear photos of the viv -- whole viv shots, closeups, etc?
> 
> ...


I got a complete tankless dart frog kit from Josh’s frogs that included
Chilean Sphagnum
ABG mix
Magnolia leaf litter 
Leca false bottom 
A large plant pack 
And some wooden branches they add in.
I have a mistiking misting system that has been off for several weeks/at least a month because my humidity gauges were reading a humidity of 99% for the last month or so and there was non on the glass and the moss was crunchy it was so dry, so I believe they are broken but my misting routine is almost nonexistent until today, I noticed some of my plants are dying due to lack of water. I’ve only really turned on the light for the plants and checked the humidity gauges nothing more with the viv. For micro fauna I had bought a thing of springtails but the weather got hot when they were shipped so I thought they were dead out of hopes some survivors were in there I mixed it in with the soil when putting the viv together and just recently this week I noticed a few of them climbing my glass. Those are the only ones I have added the mites have been there pretty much since week one. If you need more specific photos/of certain things I can get them but hopefully these work.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Zane said:


> I got a complete tankless dart frog kit from Josh’s frogs that included
> Chilean Sphagnum
> ABG mix
> Magnolia leaf litter
> ...


So Josh’s frogs tends to give outdated advice, and you don’t actually need that layer of spaghnum in there. Yeah, I got mislead as a beginner with their starter kit, too. Remove that moss ASAP, and that may improve your situation (both short term and long term).

Oh, and you’re probably better off removing that foam background the tank comes with. They don’t hold up well, plus frogs can get stuck behind it. Yeah, it’s frustrating, but these are things I learned over here after setting up, too.
As for your humidity issue, hydrometers aren’t super reliable, especially if they’re just left in the tank 24-7. I’m thinking yours just got over saturated and hasn’t been giving you an accurate reading.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Lovelyk said:


> So Josh’s frogs tends to give outdated advice, and you don’t actually need that layer of spaghnum in there. Yeah, I got mislead as a beginner with their starter kit, too. Remove that moss ASAP, and that may improve your situation (both short term and long term).
> 
> Oh, and you’re probably better off removing that foam background the tank comes with. They don’t hold up well, plus frogs can get stuck behind it. Yeah, it’s frustrating, but these are things I learned over here after setting up, too.
> As for your humidity issue, hydrometers aren’t super reliable, especially if they’re just left in the tank 24-7. I’m thinking yours just got over saturated and hasn’t been giving you an accurate reading.


The soil won’t stick to the frogs? And I’ve realized some of their information is definitely outdated, and they make it seem so easy but I knew it definitely wasn’t easy to set up a dart frog vivarium properly but this has been extremely challenging. I did not know you couldn’t leave it in the whole time🤦🏽‍♀️ I watched lots of videos and read up on it and nothing said to put it in periodically. Do I just put it in daily? Or every few days to test it? The ones I bought are said to take at least 24hrs to acclimate/properly read things. I definitely can’t remove the foam background it was pretty much stuck in there when I got the tank and now it’s definitely not coming out. The substrate barrier I have won’t reach the back either/it only makes it to the foam background so if I took it out soil would go everywhere. I should have joined this forum a long time ago.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

We're glad you're here now  

The thick layer of leaf litter will keep the frogs from coming into contact with the substrate (or will greatly reduce their rates of contact). (There are other benefits to the leaf litter, I could go on for days about it ... ). 

I left the foam background in my second tank. I only removed it because it was all kinds of ugly.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> We're glad you're here now
> 
> The thick layer of leaf litter will keep the frogs from coming into contact with the substrate (or will greatly reduce their rates of contact). (There are other benefits to the leaf litter, I could go on for days about it ... ).
> 
> I left the foam background in my second tank. I only removed it because it was all kinds of ugly.


Do I cut the leaves up? So they make a good dusting/ground cover or just place the whole ones all over where I can?


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Zane said:


> The soil won’t stick to the frogs? And I’ve realized some of their information is definitely outdated, and they make it seem so easy but I knew it definitely wasn’t easy to set up a dart frog vivarium properly but this has been extremely challenging. I did not know you couldn’t leave it in the whole time🤦🏽‍♀️ I watched lots of videos and read up on it and nothing said to put it in periodically. Do I just put it in daily? Or every few days to test it? The ones I bought are said to take at least 24hrs to acclimate/properly read things. I definitely can’t remove the foam background it was pretty much stuck in there when I got the tank and now it’s definitely not coming out. The substrate barrier I have won’t reach the back either/it only makes it to the foam background so if I took it out soil would go everywhere. I should have joined this forum a long time ago.


Yep, as @fishingguy12345 said, the leaf litter provides a barrier from the soil. A good, thick layer and you should be good to go! No need to break them up (unless you wanted to a little, since magnolia leaves are a bit big). They break up themselves, over time, and you just add fresh ones on top every now and then. I’ve gotten into layering with oak leaves (smaller) and then some magnolia leaves on top. But totally just a preference thing.

Hydrometers are a weird thing, because you would think they should be just a permanent installation…but they don’t seem to actually hold up well in such small, humid spaces. I’m sure someone else could explain the issue more technically. I’ve kind of just learned to “feel” it out. In that you can feel humidity, sort of see it, and smell factors in as well (smelling fresh, not rotten). That’s something you can probably find threads on here about as well.
And maybe not worry too much about the background, if it’s not budging for now. Might be difficult to remove with everything in anyway. I got rid of mine by partially breaking it down, then slipped in a cork background in its place, which has been better for plants to grow over…but maybe next time, in your case?


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Lovelyk said:


> Yep, as @fishingguy12345 said, the leaf litter provides a barrier from the soil. A good, thick layer and you should be good to go! No need to break them up (unless you wanted to a little, since magnolia leaves are a bit big). They break up themselves, over time, and you just add fresh ones on top every now and then. I’ve gotten into layering with oak leaves (smaller) and then some magnolia leaves on top. But totally just a preference thing.
> 
> Hydrometers are a weird thing, because you would think they should be just a permanent installation…but they don’t seem to actually hold up well in such small, humid spaces. I’m sure someone else could explain the issue more technically. I’ve kind of just learned to “feel” it out. In that you can feel humidity, sort of see it, and smell factors in as well (smelling fresh, not rotten). That’s something you can probably find threads on here about as well.
> And maybe not worry too much about the background, if it’s not budging for now. Might be difficult to remove with everything in anyway. I got rid of mine by partially breaking it down, then slipped in a cork background in its place, which has been better for plants to grow over…but maybe next time, in your case?


I will definitely try the leaves then! Hopefully it helps! And for smelling the Viv definitely smells! I open it and it smells like earth/the woods it doesn’t stink like it’s rotten unless smelling like earth is a rotten smell. Do you have a specific hydrometer you use? Or recommend?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

good lord, where is the ventilation? looks like cloud city re that star wars movie.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Lovelyk said:


> Hydrometers are a weird thing, because you would think they should be just a permanent installation…but they don’t seem to actually hold up well in such small, humid spaces. I’m sure someone else could explain the issue more technically.


There's nothing too technical about it -- the sensors simply aren't designed to have liquid water contact. In an environment that periodically condenses (that is, where the dewpoint exceeds the temperature), the sensor will have liquid water condense on it.

Hygrometers (a) aren't necessary to keep dart frogs, since the actual RH number isn't useful information, and (b) lead people astray, as in this case, and motivate them to dry out an already dry viv. If there were frogs in there, they would have quite possibly died, and the hygrometer would be to blame.

Well, not entirely: part of the issue is the fully sealed top. Dart vivs need ventilation. I recommend using the stock ExoTerra top and cutting acrylic pieces to fit the recesses on top of the screened parts, cutting them so that you have a range of sizes from fully covered (put one like this on the recess nearest the doors), to one that leaves a decent gap -- 6" or so -- that goes on the back recess with the open area above the back wall of the viv. A range of different sized pieces is useful, since it will take some trial and error to get adjusted (reducing water additions to dry things out doesn't necessarily work, as you've discovered), and since ventilation needs increase as plants grow in (more surfaces to hold water), and since ventilation needs differ seasonally (more in summer, less in winter, in my climate anyway). In summer, my Exos have 50% open screen on top.

Here is a recipe for proper viv moisture that avoids the danger of hygrometers.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Philsuma said:


> good lord, where is the ventilation? looks like cloud city re that star wars movie.


Oh, and the hygrometer is Lando, the double-crosser....who is really only a puppet of the recommender of no ventilation, played by Vader...and the viv itself is Han, who needs most of an entire film for a rescue... I like this metaphor.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> There's nothing too technical about it -- the sensors simply aren't designed to have liquid water contact. In an environment that periodically condenses (that is, where the dewpoint exceeds the temperature), the sensor will have liquid water condense on it.
> 
> Hygrometers (a) aren't necessary to keep dart frogs, since the actual RH number isn't useful information, and (b) lead people astray, as in this case, and motivate them to dry out an already dry viv. If there were frogs in there, they would have quite possibly died, and the hygrometer would be to blame.
> 
> ...


I read your post and you recommended a pump style mister, would my misting system be putting out too much? Or is it still okay to use once I have ventilation and keep an eye on how long it takes for the water to dry/or stays on top of things.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

By 'pump style mister' I was talking about what I'd recommend if a person were going to water the viv by hand (versus a Windex sort of trigger mister, which doesn't really work mostly because the volume emitted isn't sufficient). 

MistKings are great tools, and if you use one just set the timer to do what your hand pump would otherwise have done. Hopefully my volume recommendations help dial this in; 5 second misting sessions aren't the way to do this, in my opinion, since it gets leaf surfaces wet (which should be the dry areas) and don't actually water the substrate (which should be the wet area). Too much volume at one time isn't a problem -- it is supposed to be a rainforest (I've read that one part of the trick that helped get Highland sirensis breeding well again was to have rain cycles measured in something closer to hours than to minutes -- though don't take it to this extreme as a general practice). Too frequently is bad, though, since surfaces need to get some drying time in between. All this is IMO and IME, so as always feel free to critique the reasoning behind these recommendations if they call for it.

BTW, after rereading that recipe I added a bit about making sure you mist at least once per day when frogs are in there. When a person ignores RH numbers, and has appropriate ventilation, daily misting needs will be obvious from just looking at the viv, but I thought it worth clarifying.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Mist king systems are really only recommended for larger frog rooms, many tanks or people that go on vay kay a lot. Hand misting is actually better - more controlled, you engage with the enclosure and animals way better.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Back to the original issue with mites: frogs will solve your mite issue very quickly


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Chris S said:


> Back to the original issue with mites: frogs will solve your mite issue very quickly


And if they dont you could always throw in a ladybug or two. I had one accidentally crawl into one of my dart vivs and it's been there ever since (over a year now I think). Frogs won't touch them. Never seen a single mite on my orchids.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

eMCRay said:


> And if they dont you could always throw in a ladybug or two. I had one accidentally crawl into one of my dart vivs and it's been there ever since (over a year now I think). Frogs won't touch them. Never seen a single mite on my orchids.


Frogs leave them alone? I wonder why that is?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Lovelyk said:


> Frogs leave them alone? I wonder why that is?


Taste one sometime.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> By 'pump style mister' I was talking about what I'd recommend if a person were going to water the viv by hand (versus a Windex sort of trigger mister, which doesn't really work mostly because the volume emitted isn't sufficient).
> 
> MistKings are great tools, and if you use one just set the timer to do what your hand pump would otherwise have done. Hopefully my volume recommendations help dial this in; 5 second misting sessions aren't the way to do this, in my opinion, since it gets leaf surfaces wet (which should be the dry areas) and don't actually water the substrate (which should be the wet area). Too much volume at one time isn't a problem -- it is supposed to be a rainforest (I've read that one part of the trick that helped get Highland sirensis breeding well again was to have rain cycles measured in something closer to hours than to minutes -- though don't take it to this extreme as a general practice). Too frequently is bad, though, since surfaces need to get some drying time in between. All this is IMO and IME, so as always feel free to critique the reasoning behind these recommendations if they call for it.
> 
> BTW, after rereading that recipe I added a bit about making sure you mist at least once per day when frogs are in there. When a person ignores RH numbers, and has appropriate ventilation, daily misting needs will be obvious from just looking at the viv, but I thought it worth clarifying.


I put the factory top on and cut the plexi glass squares in, only in two so there is plenty of ventilation, the mites are gone I have not seen them since I took the moss out, changed the lids and began misting once a day. I believe I have that part figured out/humidity my soil seems to be no longer crunchy, it is worrisome having to simply eye it being a beginner and all but I think I’ve got it figured out! My next question is can I use a space heater in the room to keep the vivarium warm? I live in the mountains so it’s getting cold quicker and gets colder here. I am wary of using a heating mat because I have the vivarium on a padded surface on wood and the whole idea of a heat Mat sounds very risky. If I cannot use a space heater do you know of any other options?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Heating the room to a stable temperature is the safest way to keep the frogs at a desirable temperature. So yes, a space heater sounds like a good idea.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Heat mats are quite safe, but they don't (and were never intended/designed to) warm something like a frog enclosure well at all. A space heater warming the room is a great option.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Heat mats are quite safe, but they don't (and were never intended/designed to) warm something like a frog enclosure well at all. A space heater warming the room is a great option.


I'll upvote this from experience- Space heaters have inherent fire danger about them, but so does almost any heat source. Not to mention, a space heater actually does what you hope to get, which is higher air temperatures. Heat pads meant for reptiles have a negligible effect on air temperature, so they're pretty much useless for darts. Really, they're only useful for things like raising baby reptiles in small bins, where localized, direct heat is hard to provide with other means.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Heat mats are quite safe, but they don't (and were never intended/designed to) warm something like a frog enclosure well at all. A space heater warming the room is a great option.


I was going to get frogs from Josh’s frogs but now that I’ve been misled by their information I was curious if you recommend buying from them or from someone else? And the vivarium is in my room actually beside my desk, I’m homeschooled so I would be doing school beside the vivarium I have a cockatiel whom is very loud and enjoys repeating things, it’s hard doing school with that, so my question is do you recommend a quiet calling dart frog or do you think I would still be able to focus with a louder calling frog? I’m definitely wanting one of the biggest and only getting two so I’m not limited on which frog but I’m struggling with deciding where to get them, what kind would best suit the enclosure and the situation. The vivarium is 24Lx18Wx18H when I say louder and quieter I’m talking about Tincts and Teribilis (I believe I spelled those wrong, I apologize for that)


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Im actually looking at getting my first "complete dart kit" setup from Josh's frogs too, glad I came upon this post so I can ditch the hydrometer and moss layer. But really ditch the glass top too? On their website it recommends a glass top to keep the humidity levels high. Is Josh's frogs the best place to get frogs from? I am likely getting 2 yellow terribs in a 24x18x18 viv.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Need a glass top - no plexi or saran wrap please.

Choose quiet frogs - 1.1 tinctorious are fantastic, display well, not $$ and come in many different 'morphs' to choose from.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

As a rule (in the typical sense of that phrase, and also literally), we don't review vendors here in the discussion sections. If you're looking to find out the quality of animals from a vendor, search that vendor's name here and read the posts -- folks will say 'I got these cool frogs from so and so, and....'. You can also intuit some things from posts made in a vendor's own subforum here (which Josh's has), where the vendor review restriction is not in place. 

Note that quality of animals, quality of customer service, and quality of husbandry information given by any vendor may not inform on the other categories. Sometimes they might, though. And sometimes, a person may want to chose (or avoid) a vendor because of only one of those categories -- e.g. someone's customer service may be so bad that I don't want to get animals from them even if the are the best animals in the world (I'm not at all saying that's an issue in this case, but it is in the larger reptile hobby that I tend to inhabit).


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Philsuma said:


> Need a glass top


But only covering 80% of the top, the rest should be screen to allow passive ventilation 🙂


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> As a rule (in the typical sense of that phrase, and also literally), we don't review vendors here in the discussion sections. If you're looking to find out the quality of animals from a vendor, search that vendor's name here and read the posts -- folks will say 'I got these cool frogs from so and so, and....'. You can also intuit some things from posts made in a vendor's own subforum here (which Josh's has), where the vendor review restriction is not in place.
> 
> Note that quality of animals, quality of customer service, and quality of husbandry information given by any vendor may not inform on the other categories. Sometimes they might, though. And sometimes, a person may want to chose (or avoid) a vendor because of only one of those categories -- e.g. someone's customer service may be so bad that I don't want to get animals from them even if the are the best animals in the world (I'm not at all saying that's an issue in this case, but it is in the larger reptile hobby that I tend to inhabit).


If I bought froglets, they would be small enough to lose/not see in the vivarium or is it safe to just add them into the vivarium right away? Or do you have to wait until they are larger and if so what do you keep them in during that time?


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> As a rule (in the typical sense of that phrase, and also literally), we don't review vendors here in the discussion sections. If you're looking to find out the quality of animals from a vendor, search that vendor's name here and read the posts -- folks will say 'I got these cool frogs from so and so, and....'. You can also intuit some things from posts made in a vendor's own subforum here (which Josh's has), where the vendor review restriction is not in place.
> 
> Note that quality of animals, quality of customer service, and quality of husbandry information given by any vendor may not inform on the other categories. Sometimes they might, though. And sometimes, a person may want to chose (or avoid) a vendor because of only one of those categories -- e.g. someone's customer service may be so bad that I don't want to get animals from them even if the are the best animals in the world (I'm not at all saying that's an issue in this case, but it is in the larger reptile hobby that I tend to inhabit).


Another question I just thought of, they say not to mix morphs of tincs due to creating new morphs and that a size difference may cause aggression, I’m questioning everything I’ve read now, so is there another reason? I would for sure have to get two of the same frog and not be able mix tincs correct?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Zane said:


> is there another reason?


The reasons you mention, plus pathogen transfer, pathogen hybridization from genetic mixing like that that is killing the world's frogs right now (and mixing of pathogens that have yet to be discovered, discovery that is ongoing and will be until the heat death of the universe), habitat preference differences, and more that simply don't leap to mind right now.

Search the term 'mixing' here. Make coffee. Send out for pizza. Cancel your appointments for today and tomorrow. Lots of info to digest on this.

On the froglet issue, search 'quarantine' and 'froglet setup' and look at all the considerations. It is different in each case, for each species, for each keeper.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> The reasons you mention, plus pathogen transfer, pathogen hybridization from genetic mixing like that that is killing the world's frogs right now (and mixing of pathogens that have yet to be discovered, discovery that is ongoing and will be until the heat death of the universe), habitat preference differences, and more that simply don't leap to mind right now.
> 
> Search the term 'mixing' here. Make coffee. Send out for pizza. Cancel your appointments for today and tomorrow. Lots of info to digest on this.
> 
> On the froglet issue, search 'quarantine' and 'froglet setup' and look at all the considerations. It is different in each case, for each species, for each keeper.


I have researched as you advised and i understand the no mixing rules now, I am however not finding anything that is helping with how to house the froglets. Do you happen to have a specific link? The only information I have been able to gather is some use paper towels as a substrate, and change it every two days but it has draw backs and others use Sphagnum moss and I am worried that if I try the Sphagnum moss method I will have mites again, because I removed the moss as suggested and have had no more mite issues. I have just not found anywhere that says specific ways to keep them, of course there is Josh’s frogs but I am wary of trusting their information.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

For my froglet growout bins I use 20L bins, with a hole of about 2"x4" in the top (cover the hole in screen). 
I keep mine on a mix of peat moss and coco husk , tons and tons of leaf litter, and a clump of sphagnum moss in one corner (this is the only time I use sphagnum moss except as part of a cork bark mosaic background) so that there's always a really moist area if they want it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I have a couple froglet growouts made from 5.5 g fish tanks, drilled for low vents, with filter foam and layers of leaf litter, and live plants and cork hides.

I also use a couple 12 x 12 x 24 that are more or less full-blown display vivs (no backgrounds, though, as I don't do backgrounds) but since those are somewhat harder to strip and disinfect after a batch of frogs, I only run the same frog family's kids through each one.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I have a couple froglet growouts made from 5.5 g fish tanks, drilled for low vents, with filter foam and layers of leaf litter, and live plants and cork hides.
> 
> I also use a couple 12 x 12 x 24 that are more or less full-blown display vivs (no backgrounds, though, as I don't do backgrounds) but since those are somewhat harder to strip and disinfect after a batch of frogs, I only run the same frog family's kids through each one.


I have springtails one my Viv but I know isopods are also added, my question is due to having so many issues with bugs. Do I need the isopods? Or can I just have spring tails in my vivarium and it be okay? And if I need the isopods are there any surprises or issues that are usually involved with them?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Zane said:


> I have springtails one my Viv but I know isopods are also added, my question is due to having so many issues with bugs. Do I need the isopods? Or can I just have spring tails in my vivarium and it be okay? And if I need the isopods are there any surprises or issues that are usually involved with them?


I'm assuming you're asking this about growout enclosures for decent sized tinc froglets that you'll be purchasing (the considerations are different for different situations). No, you don't need to add isopods. For a temporary tinc growout, you don't even need to add springtails.

Maybe this ground has been covered in this thread already, but: have you begun culturing FFs yet? If you have "so many issues with bugs" you may find FFs intolerable -- they're more 'buggy' than isopods, for sure, and using a stock ExoTerra you'll have FFs loose in the room.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I'm assuming you're asking this about growout enclosures for decent sized tinc froglets that you'll be purchasing (the considerations are different for different situations). No, you don't need to add isopods. For a temporary tinc growout, you don't even need to add springtails.
> 
> Maybe this ground has been covered in this thread already, but: have you begun culturing FFs yet? If you have "so many issues with bugs" you may find FFs intolerable -- they're more 'buggy' than isopods, for sure, and using a stock ExoTerra you'll have FFs loose in the room.


No I have not begun culturing them yet, I’m getting flightless ones, are they buggy as well? And I am asking for my main vivarium for when they are older/larger as well, for the isopods question.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Zane said:


> No I have not begun culturing them yet, I’m getting flightless ones, are they buggy as well? And I am asking for my main vivarium for when they are older/larger as well, for the isopods question.


You don't NEED Isopods for your tank, though dwarf white Isopods are a beneficial addition to the tank to clean up debris and waste (poop). 
My tanks have them (I'm an Isopod guy) , but they aren't a requirement. Dwarf Isopods (dwarf white or purple) are the only ones I would recommend for a dart frog vivarium, the other species get large enough to pose a risk, in my opinion / experience, and if I can avoid a risk then I will.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Zane said:


> I’m getting flightless ones, are they buggy as well?


Depends what part of 'buggy' a person is concerned with, I guess. Flightless are more mobile than wingless. I don't actually use flightless, because I find them more troublesome to contain. All feeder insects feel weird when crawling on my arm, I guess.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Larvae...pupae. cocoons. Wigglers.lol.if people are squeamish about the flies, then this is not the hobby for them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Need a glass top - no plexi or saran wrap please.
> 
> Choose quiet frogs - 1.1 tinctorious are fantastic, display well, not $$ and come in many different 'morphs' to choose from.


Unless you want to give the frogs access to UVB where saran wrap is close to 100% transparent to the light... or use solacryl. Normal plexiglass laid on it will warp which as long as its not the barrier to keep the frogs inside the cage is fine as it adjusts the humidity. 

Drying out the tank may not do anything to reduce or eliminate the mite boom as relative humidity can be a substitute for the moisture required. As for controlling the mites, the best way is to simply wait the boom out, if the numbers of mites are bothering you try running double sided tape around the outside of the tank to trap the mites and change it every few days so it stays sticky. 
The frogs may not reduce the numbers much either unless you fast the frogs to encourage them to forage more... 
Some comments 

Ed


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Depends what part of 'buggy' a person is concerned with, I guess. Flightless are more mobile than wingless. I don't actually use flightless, because I find them more troublesome to contain. All feeder insects feel weird when crawling on my arm, I guess.


The only buggy part I consider buggy is them escaping or being everywhere on the viv like the mites. That’s something I suppose I’m a little gun shy of due to having the mites being everywhere, luckily taking the moss out solved that issue! But I’m just doing my best to be more careful now that I am aware any bugs I put in can escape.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Zane said:


> The only buggy part I consider buggy is them escaping or being everywhere on the viv like the mites. That’s something I suppose I’m a little gun shy of due to having the mites being everywhere, luckily taking the moss out solved that issue! But I’m just doing my best to be more careful now that I am aware any bugs I put in can escape.


Ah. Then wingless are better than flightless, and read up here on FF-proofing ExoTerras.


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