# Blue Jeans breeding Stories



## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

I was hoping people who have had success breeding Blue pumilo could share what they thought were the reasons behind it. 
I currently have a pair (calling smaller male and rotund female) in a sparsely planted vertical 20g which closely resembles BJ habitat I saw this past summer in Costa Rica. Magnolia leaves on the floor Cypress root with broms and now several film canisters at different angles attached to the sides in the lower 1/3 of the tank. The only thing I can think that I don't have from the habitat is running water.
Thanks


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2005)

1. What kind of broms are you using and how many?

2. Do you have many overlapping leaves?

3. What's your humidity level?


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Joe,
The 2 broms in the tank are 1 fireball hybrid and 1 unknown mini. 
there are no overlaping leaves to speak of and the humidity is arround 85% but I'm not sure what the daily range is. I'll put a HOBO in the tank over the weekend.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I've had a group of Nic. blue jeans breeding for several years now. My joke about what it takes to get them to breed is that it takes $500. Somehow the buggers can tell when you have spent at least that much on making them happy and then they will go to town.

But a little more practically, I still think size of the vivarium makes a difference. Mine are in a large and HEAVILY overgrown viv with a selection of different sized broms. Over time the male shifts his prefered calling and mating locations around the vivarium which indicates to me that he is a little picky about what he likes and the size and variability of the viv lets him choose sites to his liking as conditions change. The other thing I think really contributes is a good misting system. This does two things. It helps keep the eggs wet. An incredibly accomplished frogger once told me he thought blue jeans might not be as good at tending eggs as some other morphs. The second thing is the misters keep the broms flushed out with good clean water. I use only RO in the misting system.

Now I'm trying to set up some breeding pairs of F1 frogs but until I can build some big vivs, I'm trying the 20T thing. So far no luck but one thing I've learned is that temps above 80 will shut down the male's calling. I've made some modification to tame the heat and raise the humidity and added a second female to try to shake things up. We'll see how it goes. I'm not very confident in being able to get BJ froglets out of a 20T though. I know it has been done but I think everything has to be just right to pull it off.

Oh, I should mention that there is no running water in my large breeding viv. At least not since the little waterfall pump went out a couple years ago.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Brent,
Thanks for the advise. My 20T is a B. Green design and I've been wondering if my humidity is a bit too eratic under my conditions. I mist every morning but by evening the brom leaves look a bit too dry and the coco fiber at the top of the viv also looks dry. I've heard that blue jeans like slightly lower humidity levels but after seeing them in situ I didn't think that was true.
My male also moves from brom to brom and I've also seen him in the film canisters. 
My female doesn't seem to be as active a climber as her tank mate and spends only a short time in the morning climbing arround. I have seen her nearer the top of the tank but only when theres been alot of calling by the male.
Can you recommend any plants to add as laying sites?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I'll have to disagree on a couple of points about the tank being "just right". I have BJ's that produce pretty well in a small (about 8 gallon) tank, no misting system (or manual misting for that matter) and condiment cups instead of bromeliads that don't get flushed out. So although the things you listed may or may not encourage or help successful breeding they are certainly not a necessity. It's one of my frogs that is on the list to go into a larger and "better" setup, but everytime I think about moving them they are raising tads so I just leave them alone. Just remember there is no absolute "right" setup. Certainly if you have the space and time to do a big tank with a misting system, etc. knock yourself out. Just know that simple setups work also.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> I'll have to disagree on a couple of points about the tank being "just right". I have BJ's that produce pretty well in a small (about 8 gallon) tank, no misting system (or manual misting for that matter) and condiment cups instead of bromeliads that don't get flushed out. So although the things you listed may or may not encourage or help successful breeding they are certainly not a necessity. It's one of my frogs that is on the list to go into a larger and "better" setup, but everytime I think about moving them they are raising tads so I just leave them alone. Just remember there is no absolute "right" setup. Certainly if you have the space and time to do a big tank with a misting system, etc. knock yourself out. Just know that simple setups work also.


I should clarify what I meant. Like I said, several people have had BJ produce froglets in small setups so obviously it can be done. But even more people have failed to get any froglets in such setups. What I meant by "just right" is that I don't think we know exactly what makes these frogs tick and in smaller setups, there is less freedom for the frogs to choose those parts of the tank that are to their liking. So in a smaller viv, either we get all the pieces in place that they want (whatever those are), or we don't. And these things likely vary from frog to frog with some frogs being less picky maybe. I think comparing these successful setups is a very good way to try to zero in but what I wish we had were more people describing the setups that did NOT produce froglets.

Just to try to add to the conversation, I think there are three basic parts of the life history that need to be addressed with pumilio. The first step is to get the frogs in breeding condition. The male should be calling very frequently throughout the day and just after the lights go out. With a good pair, you should see active courting. I think temp, humidity, and nutrition are the keys to this step. The second step is egg tending. The frogs will pick the best place to lay the eggs but we need to make sure they don't dry out, or that the frogs don't get disturbed enough to destroy the eggs. Some frogs are likely good at keeping their eggs wet while others may need supplemental misting. That's one place where a misting system can help. But again, obviously is not always a requirement. Last is the tad rearing phase and this seems to be the hardest. They need good deposition sites obviously and I think providing a variety of sites and sizes is a good idea. Many pumilio morphs will even use dixie cups but Robb's is the first BJ I've heard of that did. Then there are water quality issues which I might go into in a later post if there is interest. There is the disturbance factor again. The females need to be comfortable enough to do their thing. And finally, nutrition of course. She needs to be in good nutritional condition to support the tads. I think pumilio need more Ca than typical darts based on some experiences I've had.

I think if you approach through these steps and tweak the setup to achieve one step at a time, the odds of success are pretty high.

One last thing I'll add is that I've seen dry periods seem to stimulate calling in the male but successful reproduction with my group required switching back to a wetter condition once the male was ramped up.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

A slightly off-topic question: what does typical pumilio courtship look like? I.e. what kind of "advances" are made by the female?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dane said:


> A slightly off-topic question: what does typical pumilio courtship look like? I.e. what kind of "advances" are made by the female?


It's pretty similar to other darts. The male calls. The female approaches. They both get kind of twitchy. Eventually the female follows the male to a spawning leaf where they do a bit of a twitchy dance with each other. I haven't noticed as much touching and stroking with front legs compared to auratus and such but there is some. It's hard to mistake the courting when you see it.


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

Okay, here's another one a bit off topic. Since a few of you are saying that you have had good if not great luck getting your blue jeans to raise tads to froglets ( and likely there are more of you out there succeeding) then why don't we ever see any for sale? I understand holding back for yourself and what not, but I personally would love a chance to get some more blue jeans. We had a male years ago and ended up getting rid of it. Now that we are getting more and more into darts I would love to get some with hopes of getting them to breed. And they are one of our favorite frogs ever. I was just curious because you never hear of anyone selling any so I assumed that meant that no one was having much luck. Great topic though, I bet it could help a lot of people figure them out a little more.

-Shelley


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2005)

I didn't want this thread to die so I thought I'd bump it up
Mark


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

I have produced a few dozen blue jeans over the past few years, from a wc pr that is now 10+ years old, these were some of the first darts i owned. this wc pr has been in the same tank for the whole time, and is a simple 30 gallon with a few plants and film canisters at varying angles jammed into the substrate. i have not moved them for fear of upsetting them. i have found them to be extremely male heavy in terms of the offspring they throw, which may explain why you dont see many for sale, or why people hold back so many, trying to get females, at least thats my reason for doing so.
i also cannot get my F1 to raise or even deposit tads, which is incredibly frustrating. I think as a whole the blue jeans are a slightly different beast that the other pumilio, or a little more picky in their requirements. Whether its dietary, environmental or other, Id say at least as far as mine go, that im missing something. im also get only about a 50% surval rate of froglets, they all seem to morph out looking great, but some dont ever grow, while others grow like weeds, all raised identically. I rarely lose a froglet from my other pumilios.
I do think the blue jeans like it wetter than other pumilio, or thats what i found to be the trigger, i keep the substate really wet and soggy so that little puddles are always in the depressions of the soil. 

I think Brent, as usual, is on the ball with the large tank, i think that's probably the way to go about breeding them with the best chance of success, as you have the room to provide ample, and variable deposition sites then thats a big step in the right direction, and generally i think it gives them a better feeling of security which is important. Im really surprised Rob that you have bred them in a 8 gallon, and im really surprised that mine breed in the tank they are in.

And Brent as for setups that did not produce froglets, you name it, i have probably tried it it with F1 blue jeans, from 10 gallons to 60 gallons, with and without broms, with, without film canisters, with film canisters and broms, really wet, dryish, with an extra male, extra female, just a pr, leaf litter, mud bottom., almost exact mimics of the 30 gallon that is producing, nothing, a few good eggs here and there, but the females never show any interest in depositing them. 

mark


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

In addition to what Mark said about why blue jeans aren't hitting the market. I'll give you the reasons why mine haven't hit the market. Like Mark, mine have produced about a dozen froglets over a 6 year period. Of those, 6-7 are still alive. Early on I was having problems losing about half the froglets at about the 4-6 month age but now am getting close to 100% survival. More about that later. My personal goal is to have 3 breeding groups producing froglets and I want at least one of those groups (more likely 2) to be F1 frogs. That's a tall order to fill and takes time. At the same time, I'm trying to get some of my frogs in the hands of a couple of experienced breeders that also have Nic. blue jeans. The point being to take advantage of the widest gene pool possible while we can and spread the risk of the line among multiple locations (so if my house burns down, we don't lose this line). Mark already mentioned the problems with breeding F1 which I am just now getting into and hopefully I'll have two groups of F1 in large vivs by the end of the year. So the bottom line for me is that I want to feel confident that this line is secure in the hobby before I start surplusing animals out to the general hobby. It takes time and who nows when or if that point will come. But thousands of blue jeans have come into the states over the years so I feel like we need to guard those few that are still here and breeding jealously until we get them figured out.

As for the froglet mortality, once again I think a large viv helps which is my answer for everything. I've found that by leaving the froglets in the breeding viv right up until the point they are almost adult size (I pull them when it is getting difficult to tell them from the adults), I don't get any mortality and the color of the froglets matches that of the adults. I feel the large viv supports a better population of microfauna in the substrate that supports them better. I also provide UVB light to all of my blue jeans following a couple of incidents of Ca deficiency despite regular supplementation. Finally, these buggers seem to be very sensitive to stress through the subadult stage. Case in point, a froglet that morphed out last winter was pulled when it reached adult size and placed in a 10 gal. rearing tank with a couple other subadult to adult sized young frogs. This froglet was very healthy and robust when it went into the rearing tank. A few hours later I noticed the male in the rearing viv was chasing the new addition all over so I pulled it out and put it back in the breeding viv. It was only in with the other frogs for a few hours. The next two days I saw the froglet acting normal and feeding but then it dissapeared. I haven't seen it for 3 months now. It's possible that the frog is still in the viv and I can't find it (this is a large and tangled jungle), or that I just confuse it with the adults now. But I know the frogs in the viv pretty well and consistently find all of the frogs in there, including a younger froglet, so I suspect this froglet perished. The only reason I can think of was that it was stress related from the trouncing it got for those few hours in the rearing tank. I saw something similar with my first two froglets years ago but but frogs involved were only a couple weeks out of the water at the time.

Anyway, we obviously still have a lot to learn about these frogs so I hope we keep this thread going.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2005)

perhabs you can make some photos of working tanks. 

thx


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

Mark, Brent- Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. It does sound like it would be frustrating with these guys. When, and if, they do ever start doing really well I would just really love to get some more of them. So I guess I am just jumping the gun. It sounds like you guys are on the right track though. So keep up the good work.

-Shelley


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

As Mark and Brent mentioned froglet mortality seems to be higher than in other pumilio. I know with histrionicus some have said that leaving the young in with the adults for the first several months has helped reduce froglet mortality. The only way I can see doing this without putting added stress on froglets and adults is with a larger enclosure such as the ones Brent was describing. Perhaps somewhere in the neighborhood of 20gal/frog. The first three froglets that my pair produced I left in with the adults and they all three died within the first month. At the time they were in a 20tall with broms etc. It's hard to really draw any conclusion from this because after all it was just one clutch from one pair. I think as time goes on and the "sample size" gets a little bigger we can start to pool what seems to work and what doesn't. For the moment though as you can see from this thread there seems to be a few different setups working with various degrees of success. With my animals so far the longest lasting froglets have been those that were raised by bastis. Most of the ones raised by the parents have either been spindly or the froglets just haven't been very robust. I have also morphed a half dozen or so froglets using other pdf eggs and the survival rate of those that morph has been the same as others have experienced, about 50%.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2005)

I knew that blue jeans were a harder morph to care for then some other pumilios that are around, but I had no idea that they were this tough. Good luck to everyone that's working with them, and I sure hope that these frogs stay in the hobby for years to come. I think keeping the new froglets in the hands of very experienced dart breeders is the best idea until a good breeding regimen has been found, and the froglets begin thriving in captivity.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2005)

Gather round the campfire and listen to the facinating tales and stories of breeding frogs.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Robb's point about leaving froglets in with the parents depending on tank volume is really important. My breeding viv allows 33 gal. per breeding frog (a 1.2 group). If you try to keep froglets with adults or sibs in a small space, the larger frogs will beat the crap out of the smaller and it will die.

I'm actually not convinced that blue jeans are that hard to breed. It's just a matter of getting the setup to their liking. I'll bet if you turned them loose in a greenhouse, they would go nuts. Not long ago, auratus were considered hard to breed. Now that we know what they need, they are easy. But what I would say is that blue jeans are a challenge for people with large collections. Large collections place a premium on space and time. Things work best if you can service a lot of frogs using similar techniques and setups. Frogs that don't fit the standard requirements require more individual attention that may not be available to someone tending a very large collection. I think there's a huge opportunity in the hobby for people to specialize. Get good at breeding a few of the more "normal" species and then pick something challenging to specialize in and devote the time and resources needed to get successful. I have a friend who only breeds fantasticus and over the years he has gotten quite good at it. I just think there are real opportunities for people willing to keep the numbers of species they keep low so they can concentrate on one or two really challengng ones.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2005)

Very well put Brent. I for one have picked Sherpard Island green pums to be one of the species I want to get to know very well.Having spent alot of time hunting them down and knowing they not as readily availiable as say Bastimentos are it makes them even more appealing to me to find what will make them "tick". So far, things are going great but I can see where they would benifit from being in even larger viv then the 20 high verts they are in now.
Mark W.


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## joker555 (Jan 8, 2005)

Alitttle off-topic, but Mark's a good example of a person with a genuine interest in his frogs. I was talking with a friend recently about how people seem to be using pumilio as trading pieces instead of keeping them with the intention to work with them. While I don't find this especially offensive, it does seem kind of rediculous considering its up there as one of the more interesting dendrobates to keep imo.

Mark, 
In time, I'm sure you will have the 100 gal green pum breeder tank regardless of whether or not you have the space for it  

Dustin


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

joker555 said:


> While I don't find this especially offensive, it does seem kind of rediculous considering its up there as one of the more interesting dendrobates to keep imo.


I do find it offensive when it is a morph that is not well established as a captive breeder in the hobby. I think when these frogs are imported, the clock starts ticking on whether enough will get establihed in successful breeding groups to secure their future in the hobby. The more the frogs move from collection to collection, or spend time in collections that don't make an effort to breed them, the more likely they will die before reproducing.

And I agree completely about Mark. He's in my list of top froggers I respect most.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I hope the trading pieces remark wasn't aimed at me. I'm doing my best to get a working breeding group going.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dane said:


> I hope the trading pieces remark wasn't aimed at me. I'm doing my best to get a working breeding group going.


My remarks weren't aimed at anyone in particular. I just don't like seeing rare frogs moved around like pawns. We all know how hard it can be to put a breeding group together.


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## joker555 (Jan 8, 2005)

Brent,

Granted, it is upsetting to watch pumilios being traded this way (thats why I brought it up), but by offensive I mean its nothing you will see me get worked up about. As long as there is a demand there is nothing you or I can do exept bring it up and see if we can get people to discuss it and get the people who are doing it to at least give it a second thought.

Dane,

My comment was not aimed at you or anyone else. I brought it up to see if others had noticed it as well.

Dustin


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

This morning I was greeted to the sight of a brand new blue jeans froglet so I took some hasty pics of the froglet and viv 




















This is the second froglet that appears to have been reared in this Billbergia. I usually have no idea where the tads are deposited.

And here are a couple shots of the viv:










The viv is 36"W x 36"T x 18"D for a total of about 100 gal. of volume. The lights are two 96w compact flourescent 7% UVB bulbs with a sheet of Solacryl between them and the viv.










The arrow on the right side of the picture is where the new froglet is emmerging. The arrow on the left is where a 2 month old froglet is hanging out. The adults are usually up in the plants but the females come down to the floor to feed when it is quiet. I've never seen the male on the ground.

The viv is an ugly mess. It is about 6 years old and there is nothing left but humus of the 50 odd lbs. of driftwood it started out with. I need to tear it down and rebuild it just for aesthetics but for almost a year, it has been producing about 1 froglet every 2 months so I'm reluctant to mess with it. Before that, I was getting 2-3 froglets per year.


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

great to see Brent, congratulations, and i wouldnt mess with that tank it seems to be working  and is a heck of a lot nicer than what mine are producing in. 

to tie in another thread, and some comments from above I too am a little surprised by the sustained interest of blue jeans with the influx of the "man creeks". i have both and get almost as much of a kick from the man creeks as the blue jeans, the blue jeans for me have more sentimental value as i said they were some of the frog i purchased, and i still remember the excitement of purchasing, which now that i realize it was nearly 9 years ago. wow. Maybe for others there is sentimental value too, I imagine since they are such a commonly photographed frog that they may have keyed and interest in many people. I hope we are not haveing discussions 5 years from now, or people five years from now struggling to peice together a breeding pr of any of the pumilio types currently coming in from panama. i guess what i think would benefit the hobby in general is if more people, (to go along with Brents idea of specialization) would buy numbers of one morph rather than a couple of each. i think this way it would be more likely that multiple solid and sustainable groups would become established. then it would be easy to trade offspring amongst friends at a later time. But maybe im being hypocritical as i bought groups from all three morphs myself. tsk tsk.
regardless it really encouraging to see so many people getting production from from the new pumilio already, hopefully it keeps up, and they will remain a fixture in NA.

Now Greenhouses. i agree that the blue jeans would explode in a greenhouse. i have always wanted to try a greenhouse for frog breeding, but being in canada its a little impractical (expensive), and with the horrible weather we have now, im seriously considering moving to peru. Is anyone here playing with frogs in a greenhouse i for one would love to hear about it.

mark


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2005)

Brent, 
Congrats on the new froglet. I'd love to have a big viv like yours for my pums.
Are those corktiles that you used for the background
This thread has been very thought provoking for me and I am starting to rethink as to where I want to be in the hobby in the future.
Mark W.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

MPepper said:


> great to see Brent, congratulations, and i wouldnt mess with that tank it seems to be working  and is a heck of a lot nicer than what mine are producing in.


Yeah, I know, I shouldn't mess with it. It's just that this vivarium was pretty amazing to look at for the first 3 years of its existence. There was always something in bloom and the frogs were much more interesting to watch. It's the first thing you see when you walk in our front door and all I see is how sorry it looks compared with days gone by. But luckily I have plenty of other projects I need to do before revamping that viv so that will keep me from doing something stupid for awhile. 



> to tie in another thread, and some comments from above I too am a little surprised by the sustained interest of blue jeans with the influx of the "man creeks". i have both and get almost as much of a kick from the man creeks as the blue jeans,


I haven't seen the Man Creek in life but the photos are amazing. I too am a little surprised the mystique of the blue jeans lives on. Don't get me wrong, I still think a well colored blue jeans is probably the most beautiful frog I've laid eyes on. But many people don't realize how vulnerable they are. I think Randy or Robb mentioned this on another thread. Often times the legs are more black than blue and the body color can go from fire engine red to a washed out orange. All of them are pretty but only the fire engine red with bright blue legs really blow me away. But add to that the challenge of breeding them and, of course, all the cool traits they share with other pumilio, and they are still my favorite frog.




> i guess what i think would benefit the hobby in general is if more people, (to go along with Brents idea of specialization) would buy numbers of one morph rather than a couple of each. i think this way it would be more likely that multiple solid and sustainable groups would become established. then it would be easy to trade offspring amongst friends at a later time.


That's actually a good point. Time for me to confess. I bought a 3.3 wc group in (I think) 1999. All frogs established well with no mortality. About two months into the project, I found a male raisinette on the floor of my office and discovered a warped piece of acrylic across the top had allowed the escape. Down to 5. About a month later, a female just dissapeared and I never knew her fate. Down to 4. About a year and a half later I found a male tangled up in some excelsior in an ff culture and suffocated. A stupid mistake on my part that put me down to 1.2 adults. This also led to increased reproduction which should probably be another post on sex ratios. So then I was down to 3 with only one male. Over this time they were producing froglets sporadically but I was also having about 50% mortality with the froglets so it took almost five years to finally get to the point where I had a total number of frogs that was higher than the 6 I bought originally. Had I bought fewer frogs to start, I would be screwed. Had all of my frogs survived, I would have had animals to trade around to other breeders with blue jeans needing mates. Also in hind sight, trying to put 6 pumilio even in a large viv was a bad idea but that will wait for the sex ratio post.



> Now Greenhouses. i agree that the blue jeans would explode in a greenhouse. i have always wanted to try a greenhouse for frog breeding, but being in canada its a little impractical (expensive), and with the horrible weather we have now, im seriously considering moving to peru. Is anyone here playing with frogs in a greenhouse i for one would love to hear about it.
> 
> mark


Our long term plan is to build a greenhouse into the south slope of our property but that won't happen for awhile. I'd like to hear of anyone with greenhouse experience too. And talk about horrible weather...... PERU..... yuck! Give me snow!!!! But you already know what you are getting into and you must like humidity.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Mark Wilson said:


> Brent,
> Congrats on the new froglet. I'd love to have a big viv like yours for my pums.
> Are those corktiles that you used for the background
> This thread has been very thought provoking for me and I am starting to rethink as to where I want to be in the hobby in the future.
> Mark W.


Mark,

Yes those are standard cork tiles in the viv and time for another confession. I siliconed those into the viv while the frogs were occupying it and breeding. I would glue in one tile a day and let it cure before adding another. The viv was large enough that I could never detect any fumes at that rate but I know some froggers are probably running to the bathroom to throw up now.

But back to cork tiles. I won't ever use them again. They rot and only last about 2 years. If you could see this viv in person, you would know why I want to rennovate. It looks better in the images. The better tiles to use are the natural bark surfaced tiles but they have their own problems if you haven't played with them. In addition to being more expensive, they warp and delaminate. Sometimes they warp enough to pull loose from silicone but on an acrylic wall, you could actually bolt them on with stainless steel bolts and washers and a rubber washer against the inside acrylic to maintain a water tight seal. The delamination causes flakes of bark to pop out on one end but I haven't had one completely fall apart to where it doesn't look good.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

This thread has also been thought provoking to me also. I have room in my yard for a greenhouse, and have been contemplating building one for about a year now, and I may start building it soon. The greenhouse would be for the man creeks I have. Since I live in central Florida, I have good weather for them about 9 months of the year, and it wouldnt be hard to move them into tanks during the winter. I have some questions though, what would be the best material for the walls? Should I have a moat to keep the ants out? I will begin making the frame this week, I will use 2" x 4"'s as I have alot left over from when I made some shelves. I plan on making it 4' x 4' x 6', length x width x height. I will also sink it into the ground about a foot to keep it out of the neighbors sight because I know it will cause some suspicion. After typing this I have been rethinking the size, as it will be difficult to feed and monitor animals when I have to worry about frogs jumping through a 4 x 6 door, maybe two doors? or a larger green house so I could walk inside and close the door behind me?


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## joker555 (Jan 8, 2005)

I would say seeing the Blue Jeans at the Shed Aquarium exhibit in Chicago 4 or 5 years ago initially got me into darts. At the time I couldn't believe how tiny they were or what you would feed such a small frog. It's no mystery now, but that is part of what captivated me and how blue jeans grew on me from day 1.

Brent,

Congrats on the froglet! To someone who is used to thier tank it may look like crap, but it looks awesome from where I'm sitting. Did you make the tank yourself?


Dustin


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

geckguy said:


> This thread has also been thought provoking to me also. I have room in my yard for a greenhouse, and have been contemplating building one for about a year now, and I may start building it soon. The greenhouse would be for the man creeks I have. Since I live in central Florida, I have good weather for them about 9 months of the year, and it wouldnt be hard to move them into tanks during the winter. I have some questions though, what would be the best material for the walls? Should I have a moat to keep the ants out? I will begin making the frame this week, I will use 2" x 4"'s as I have alot left over from when I made some shelves. I plan on making it 4' x 4' x 6', length x width x height. I will also sink it into the ground about a foot to keep it out of the neighbors sight because I know it will cause some suspicion. After typing this I have been rethinking the size, as it will be difficult to feed and monitor animals when I have to worry about frogs jumping through a 4 x 6 door, maybe two doors? or a larger green house so I could walk inside and close the door behind me?


If I were building it, I would make a porch, so there is a double door, which would function as an airlock (sort of), and also to help prevent escape, which would be my biggest concern If I had a place to build one.
I'd also put serious thought into temp control, anyone know any details on the greenhouses in panama, as far as that goes? I know even up in the frozen north country, in the summertime a greenhouse can easily exceed normal temp paramaters for pdf's.
Also, I probably wouldn't bother if you can only keep them in there for 9 months out of the year...some frogs are hard enough to find and catch in a ten gallon tank, let alone a walk in greenhouse. Also when you decide to move them into tanks, you would probably lose any tads that were being fed by the parents. 
Take my advice with a big grain of salt, as I have no experience with pumilio.
Also, I'm not trying to talk you out of building a greenhouse, I'd love to have one, even if it were just for plants


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I talked to Rex Searcy a few years ago about his greenhouses with frogs. The biggest thing he said he would change is that he would use aluminum or some other rot proof material for the frame because even redwood eventually rotted out in his. Ventillation was mentioned and this is really important in a greenhouse no matter where it is. I live in Montana and people here tell me they have to open their vents on a sunny day even in winter. I think a walk-in would be best with the double door for security. I would suggest building a concrete footing to build the structure on. In FL where you don't have frost heave, you could probably just lay up a cinder block wall in a trench but I would check around and see how orchid hobbyists and such are constructing their backyard greenhouses in your area. This would give you a good defense against aggresive ants and I would also treat the perimeter of the footing with the new borate based insect repellent used around homes. But of course I would seed the inside of the greenhouse with as many insects, including ants, that I could.

Another thing to consider is screen houses in your area. Again, they couldn't be used year round unless you rigged a way to cover them in plastic and keep them warm but I have heard of people in the tropics and subtropics using them.

And yes, I did build that vivarium. It's a pretty basic front opening design that has held up fairly well over the years.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

It would be hard to find them in there, but I know some people who use bubble wrap for their green houses as the air in it insulates very well. I would definitely let it run for awhile before adding frogs. Good idea with the "porch idea", I know some people do that thing with their hot herp rooms. They use 2 sliding glass doors, they go in the first close it, look through the second to make sure there are no escapees just in case, and then go into the room. I am really not sure what the temps will be, I have two places I could build it, under a orange tree that stays shaded for a good part of the day so I would have to use fairly low light plants, and the other is beneath a large oak tree which gets enough sunlight to keep fireballs red, I am not sure how many hours of sunlight a day the area receives. If it doesnt work out with the temps I can always keep my plants in it. I have most of the supplies already so it wont cost too much. I have decided to make it larger maybe 4' x 8' x 6'.


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## joker555 (Jan 8, 2005)

Brent,

Do you have any tips on building a homemade class enclosure. As well as making an escape-proof sliding door?

Dustin


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

joker555 said:


> Brent,
> 
> Do you have any tips on building a homemade class enclosure. As well as making an escape-proof sliding door?
> 
> Dustin


I just used standard plastic sliding track and cut the glass for about a 2" overlap. There's about a 1/8" gap between the panels but an adult frog would have to work hard to squeeze through. On the outer edges I solvent welded pieces of clear plastic corner bead used to protect the corners of drywall walls. These are placed to eliminate the gap at the outside edges of the glass door panels. No real tips or tricks I don't think. It's pretty standard construction, a box with sliding doors. There are other people on the board far more accomplished at building acrylic and glass vivs than me.


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## HansV (Apr 15, 2004)

Brent,

I am following this ferry interesting discussion and if I am right you are using UV-B light. So far as I now it is impossible to make UV-B lights without the side effect of UV-C. Because UV-C is sterilizing is it not possible that because of the sterilizing effect you can’t breed with the F1?? Because of this effect we use UV-A and have than a little UV-B with it, but never UV-C

Hans


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## joker555 (Jan 8, 2005)

Hi Hans,

If using UV-B has ill effects, how is using it in conjunction with UV-A any different? Wouldn't the frogs still be getting some UV-C from the small doses you used of the UV-B?

Dustin


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

HansV said:


> Brent,
> 
> I am following this ferry interesting discussion and if I am right you are using UV-B light. So far as I now it is impossible to make UV-B lights without the side effect of UV-C. Because UV-C is sterilizing is it not possible that because of the sterilizing effect you can’t breed with the F1?? Because of this effect we use UV-A and have than a little UV-B with it, but never UV-C
> 
> Hans


If UVC is a problem, I think I've read somewhere that OP-4 UV passing acrylic filters out most of the UVC, which would make sense, since it is mainly used in tanning beds. Just an option worth considering.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

HansV said:


> Brent,
> 
> I am following this ferry interesting discussion and if I am right you are using UV-B light. So far as I now it is impossible to make UV-B lights without the side effect of UV-C. Because UV-C is sterilizing is it not possible that because of the sterilizing effect you can’t breed with the F1?? Because of this effect we use UV-A and have than a little UV-B with it, but never UV-C
> 
> Hans


It's easy to deal with. First, UVC is the very high energy end of the UV spectrum and I don't think any of the lights designed for reptiles admit any UVC. It's easy for the manufacturers to coat the tubes to filter it out. Second, I have tested the transmissivity of Solacryl on a spectrophotometer and between 290 and 250 nm it drops transmission from in the 90% range to zero meaning it is very transparent to UVA and UVB but does not transmit UVC. This means that you could safely supply UV using standard halogen and MH lamps by removing the UV lens from the lamp and passing the light through Solacryl instead. Pretty handy. Just as Brian said.

Dustin mentioned combining UVA and UVB. This is actually desireable. UVA is the lowest energy end of the UV spectrum. Wavelengths longer than UVA are visible violet. As the wavelengths get shorter, the energy level in them goes up so with shortening wavelengths you move from UVA to UVB and finally, the shortest wavelengths withing the UV spectrum are UVC which has enough energy to break cell membranes which is how they sterilize things. UVA may provide psychological benefits for things that can see (or feel) UV radiation but it doesn't have enough energy to trigger vitamin D synthesis. UVB has the energy to trigger vitamin synthesis and it can damage living cells (sunburn and skin cancer) but it doesn't have the lethal punch of UVC.


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## HansV (Apr 15, 2004)

Dustin,

We need the UV-B effect for triggering the vitamin D synthesis. But we will not have the UV-C effect. Because of this we are using the UV-A light, with a little UV-B radiation. UV-A makes that the frogs feel better, and the UV-B for triggering the vitamin D synthesis. But I have to confess that I personal have never seen the spectrum of the used lamp. I think that I go examine this now.
The point of the Solacryl is also interesting. We don’t have an spectrophotometer, so we can’t do measurements like Brent, but this probably opens the way to use more UV-B light ore do more experiments with it, without the danger of some UV-C radiation. Thanks Brent for this input.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

MPepper said:


> I have produced a few dozen blue jeans over the past few years, from a wc pr that is now 10+ years old, these were some of the first darts i owned. this wc pr has been in the same tank for the whole time, and is a simple 30 gallon with a few plants and film canisters at varying angles jammed into the substrate. i have not moved them for fear of upsetting them. i have found them to be extremely male heavy in terms of the offspring they throw, which may explain why you dont see many for sale, or why people hold back so many, trying to get females, at least thats my reason for doing so.
> i also cannot get my F1 to raise or even deposit tads, which is incredibly frustrating. I think as a whole the blue jeans are a slightly different beast that the other pumilio, or a little more picky in their requirements. Whether its dietary, environmental or other, Id say at least as far as mine go, that im missing something. im also get only about a 50% surval rate of froglets, they all seem to morph out looking great, but some dont ever grow, while others grow like weeds, all raised identically. I rarely lose a froglet from my other pumilios.
> I do think the blue jeans like it wetter than other pumilio, or thats what i found to be the trigger, i keep the substate really wet and soggy so that little puddles are always in the depressions of the soil.
> 
> ...


I thought I read somewhere...perhaps one of the european websites, that certain frogs' rate of success from F1 is much less than from WC. If this is just urban frog legend, I'm sorry for passing it. If not it would be interesting to see if clones from WC parents would produce offspring as well as the WC, or if the WC produce better because of learning how to mate and rear their young in the wild.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2005)

That is a very good question Brian.Especially with all the success people seem to be having with the new imports. It will be interesting to find out if the F1's will be as productive.
Mark


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Mark Wilson said:


> That is a very good question Brian.Especially with all the success people seem to be having with the new imports. It will be interesting to find out if the F1's will be as productive.
> Mark


I could be wrong but I think that bri bri and bastis are producing F2 now. But this has been an ultimate question. If true, it means we haven't really figured out these frogs after all and simply producing froglets is not really the mark of success. But I also wonder if this is an artifact of different care for wc and F1. For example, my wc are in that large viv posted earlier that I've spent a lot of time and money perfecting. But my F1 have been housed in 10's and 20's so not surprisingly, I haven't had any luck with the F1. I plan to set up a couple more large vivs but that takes time and space that I don't have right now so I'm sending a pair of F1 to another frogger who will be able to get them set up similar to my wc. Maybe we'll see soon whether the reputation of F1 is deserved. I just wonder if this is a typical situation where the wc get all the attention and the F1 get something less. Then again, maybe we are just producing crappy frogs.


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## tikifrog (May 11, 2004)

My wc pair are producing tads again that are not being cared for, AGAIN. There is a clutch of four tads swimming in a pvc elbow and two other fresh clutches developing. They have been in a std. twenty. I have used many different broms and various containers to have them produce six froglets and had only one survive passed six months. I hope to make room and funds to set up a larger viv. I have a 3'x2'x3' tall rain chamber we used to breed tree frogs in. I think I'll give them the $500 viv treatment before they get too old.


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## tkavan01 (Mar 17, 2004)

I have no experience with this kind of stuff, but my thought is along the lines of the F1 breeding(or lack there of) has anyone ever tried putting an unrelated f1 in with some WC's? maybe that would expose them to some of the breeding stuff that should be happening but isn't... just a thought, something i'd really like to try if i ever got into thumbs...


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Just another thought if there is something to the F1's not producing as well as the WC's.
Could it be possible that the WC's have a symbiotic organism living in them that provides a nutrient, hormone, or other substance that affects them, that doesn't get passed on to the next generation? If so perhaps the only way to get innoculated is in the wild (for now)?
Perhaps someone with access to a lab could run tests on fecals, skin rubs, excretions, etc., and see if the WC's have something the F1's don't.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

tkavan01 said:


> I have no experience with this kind of stuff, but my thought is along the lines of the F1 breeding(or lack there of) has anyone ever tried putting an unrelated f1 in with some WC's? maybe that would expose them to some of the breeding stuff that should be happening but isn't... just a thought, something i'd really like to try if i ever got into thumbs...


There could be alot to this. All of my F1 are at least half sibs. Right now I'm experimenting with mixing these F1 that have been separated for over a year and hopefully have lost any familiarity with each other. I've also purposely loaded up a viv with 2.2 hoping that some territroiality and rivalry might heat things up and kick off some breeding behavior. We'll see what happens.


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## tkavan01 (Mar 17, 2004)

well i was thinking along the lines of those who have wc's that are producing could maybe trade up some f1's and then there's a good chance they aren't related, then you put the unrelated f1's in with your producing wc's so you get maybe a 2.2 or 2.1, or 1.2 and see if maybe this will stimulate some breeding characteristics, then remove the f1's and see if they breed on their own, or maybe put them in with f1's of your original wc pair and see if that can get something going, with any experiment there are a million variations you can go with... it would require 2 other breeders to co-operate though and those suckers are worth their weight in platinum so it would probably be impossible, but it would be another "wouldn't it be cool to try this" things...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

tkavan01 said:


> well i was thinking along the lines of those who have wc's that are producing could maybe trade up some f1's and then there's a good chance they aren't related, then you put the unrelated f1's in with your producing wc's so you get maybe a 2.2 or 2.1, or 1.2 and see if maybe this will stimulate some breeding characteristics, then remove the f1's and see if they breed on their own, or maybe put them in with f1's of your original wc pair and see if that can get something going, with any experiment there are a million variations you can go with... it would require 2 other breeders to co-operate though and those suckers are worth their weight in platinum so it would probably be impossible, but it would be another "wouldn't it be cool to try this" things...


I'm working on that too, it's not as hard as you think. And I don't know the price of platinum but I actually did figure out a few months ago that they are worth something like 20x their weight in gold.... literally. That's plain nuts.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> Just another thought if there is something to the F1's not producing as well as the WC's.
> Could it be possible that the WC's have a symbiotic organism living in them that provides a nutrient, hormone, or other substance that affects them, that doesn't get passed on to the next generation? If so perhaps the only way to get innoculated is in the wild (for now)?
> Perhaps someone with access to a lab could run tests on fecals, skin rubs, excretions, etc., and see if the WC's have something the F1's don't.


I don't think this could be ruled out but I think it's a stretch. If I'm not mistaken, some morphs of pumilio have been bred multiple generations. Actually Yeager listed quite a few on another thread. So having something like this missing in just one or two morphs of the same species seems pretty weird. I actually think the F1 phenomena is because the frogs just haven't been set up in something that gets them comfortable enough to breed or they just don't get excited about frogs they've been raised with (the sibling problem). I could't rule out the possibility they recognize siblings either but I doubt they do in the way humans do. Most likely they just get use to certain frogs being around all the time so those frogs don't trigger the love juices like strangers would.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I agree...it is a stretch as far as the symbiotic organism theory goes...just an idea I came up with.
I wouldn't be surprized though, If the WC's "know" something the CB's need to learn.
Think about it...these frogs raise their young with eggs...how strange is that? It would make sense to me that there is alot more going on between these frogs than we know.
As far as why BJ's are less successful than other egg-feeders :?: That is the question.


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## SD88 (Jun 7, 2021)

Thought I’d revive this thread as there seems to be an influx of imports back in the market


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