# Mixing frogs



## Sawickib (Jul 26, 2015)

Hi, I just set an Exo-terra 40 gallon and have two frogs in atm. I was wondering if it was ok for them to be together, also wondering what other frogs i can safely add and how many. The frogs and tank is pictured below.


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## Sawickib (Jul 26, 2015)

The tank my bad thought it loaded the right photo.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

If you use the Search function here on Dendroboard (or Google), you can find a lot of helpful threads on species-mixing. Long story short, it's not a good idea. You risk elevating aggression, as well as the chances of mixed-breed frogs. (Hybrids are not good). 

You may consider adding some more plants and hides for your frogs' security. Unless you installed a drain on the bottom of your tank, you will also need to make a way to drain excess water from that bottom layer. 

Finally, it looks like your two frogs are D. auratus. If I remember correctly, "big" Dendrobates like them are better off in pairs than groups (unless you have a lot of experience, and know how to read their behavior for aggression warranting separation). Like I mentioned earlier, you don't have enough plants to provide visual barriers for your frogs.


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## Sawickib (Jul 26, 2015)

Thank you so much for your honesty! 

Do you have any idea how to go about setting up a drainage system?

I guess ill re-home these frogs, i bought them from a person a craigslist didn't know they couldn't go together, my apologies. Could you recommend any species that i could keep in a group in this tank? And the amount, i really don't care if its all one species, i just want the frogs to be happy.

And also could anyone recommend any plant species to add and to what locations? I might need to go onto the vivarium forum threads for this question, but its still a newbie question


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## mark c (Jun 17, 2010)

You have a significant amount of drainage layer substrate, so I doubt you will need to tear everything down and add a drain to the tank. If water starts to build up to where it reaches the planting substrate, you are probably misting too heavily anyway.

Why get rid of both frogs?

Your tank needs leaf litter. It's big enough for magnolia leaves. Also had some coco huts.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

I knew I was forgetting something...Darn leaf litter. 

Sawickib, I'm not sure where you're located--but if you live near Seattle, I have a ton of extra magnolia leaves...

By the way, I didn't mean that you have to re-do the tank by adding a drain. I just wanted to mention it in case you built another enclosure later on (or, Lord forbid, you end up over-misting as Mark mentioned, and you end up with a high water level).

I'm also confused as to why you would re-home both frogs. According to your picture, you have an Auratus and an Azureus (the blue one). You would really just need to return one of them. Or, if you have a spare 20 gallon tank lying around, you can just separate them and keep both. 

The sub-forum you mentioned will have great plant suggestions!


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

The concern with mixing frogs is a hot topic here. There will be a lot of opinions. Mine tends not to be in the majority.  Nice tank! I have a tank that size, looks like the same one even. I have a couple taller plants (philodendron and an anthurium). Something with large sturdy leaves will give your frogs another level to move on. You don't need a drain on that tank. It has it's own ventilation system in front and it has a screen top (if your tank is like mine). In fact you may find you need to cover your screen top to keep the humidity high enough. I have clear plastic wrap under most of my screen to hold in moisture. I mist once a day on that tank. But I agree you don't want the water reaching your substrate layer so just keep an eye on it.

If you only have those two in a 40 gallon tank you might not have any problems with keeping them together. A good leaf litter will probably improve your likelihood of successfully keeping them both together.

The blue/black frog (dendrobates tinctorius "azureus") you have tends to do better in a male/female pair. Two females tend to be aggressive with one another, sometimes not if they've been raised together from the get go.

The green/black frog (dendrobates auratus) you have will do well in a group. A friend of mine has 7 adults in a 40 gallon. I have 12 froglets in a 20 gallon.


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## Sawickib (Jul 26, 2015)

Ok cool so i can leave it how it is as far as drainage.

Ill be ordering some more plants and ill see about coco hides, and a dish that will hold water that they can get in.

Im in florida unfortunately, haha but i do have extra leaf liter as well.

Which frog can i keep in a group? Either one? Ill just have to source them, but i might be able to just get these >>> Phyllobates bicolor 'Green Leg' - Black Legged Poison Frog | Josh's Frogs

I have a ten gallon i can set up for one of the darts...


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## Dart guy 16 (Jan 16, 2012)

The bottom line (and I don't care who gets pissed at this) is do whatever you want that makes you happy.. You'll get chewed out for it but who cares. Everyone will tell you it's wrong and unethical and they are right but again who cares? I would keep an eye out for breeding and if they happen to interbreed I would just freeze the eggs but if that magical moment happens where you find a cross species froglet in your tank congrats you are one of many who have them (and to think some of these frogs are owned by the people who tell you it's wrong) so screw it. And screw that search function, you ever try to use it? You'll go through 100 threads before you get something close to your answer but you're still never really sure. Asking is easy and better to get a direct answer to your question than a ball park answer.


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## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

I found great results with the search function. The popular helpful beginner threads sticky is a good place to start. I read for a month or two before I asked my first question. On a forum like this you need to read quite a bit comparing threads and researching advice people give to get an idea of who you want to listen to.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

gope said:


> I found great results with the search function. The popular helpful beginner threads sticky is a good place to start. I read for a month or two before I asked my first question. On a forum like this you need to read quite a bit comparing threads and researching advice people give to get an idea of who you want to listen to.


I've had my best luck with Google via the "(topic) dendroboard" search route. I find pretty much anything I need that way.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/173258-multispecies-reference-page.html


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## Igot99problems (Jun 20, 2014)

I took a long time explaining to my wife why it wasn't a good idea to mix frogs. Then we go to the Detroit Zoo and see this:






smh


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Zoos get a 'pass' for multi species exhibits. There are a few good reasons why this is valid.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Igot99problems said:


> I took a long time explaining to my wife why it wasn't a good idea to mix frogs. Then we go to the Detroit Zoo and see this:
> View attachment 183794
> smh


Please do not assume that an in-home, private vivarium is anything like a public, AZA, or similar display. The individuals that are in charge of these exhibits are under extreme budget constraints, and are in the business of increasing public awareness/interest in wildlife. 
In a nutshell, they are tasked with creating the most visually engaging display for the layperson, while not compromising the care of the animals displayed.
In the context of a private hobbyist, significant improvements based on the requirements of the individual animals concerned can, and should, be provided.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I think differently about the zoos.
In my opinion it is in no way justified for a zoo mixing frogs. Because a modern zoo has its justification in offering the public the most correct way possible to keep animals. Otherwise it does not make sense. It makes no sense to keep the animals in cages for the sake of offering an 'exotic show'. It makes no sense to keep the animals in cages for... what? Gain?
A modern zoo should have educational value.
This is my opinion.
Why should it be allowed to breed several species of frogs in the same tank for a zoo and not the same for a private owner? For budget, business or other... But could not be true the same for a private, a "novice"? 
There must be no, for me, a double standard. What is wrong, it is wrong for everyone.
Again according to my opinion.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

rigel10 said:


> I think differently about the zoos.
> In my opinion it is in no way justified for a zoo mixing frogs. Because a modern zoo has its justification in offering the public the most correct way possible to keep animals. Otherwise it does not make sense. It makes no sense to keep the animals in cages for the sake of offering an 'exotic show'. It makes no sense to keep the animals in cages for... what? Gain?
> A modern zoo should have educational value.
> This is my opinion.
> ...


Zoos and institutions are a wholly different situation, and are in no way held to the standards (or lack thereof) of a hobby.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Most Zoos do not have the least bit of interest in educating individuals as to proper husbandry of exotics. Education at Zoos isn't about husbandry. Many zoos adopt a policy that keeping exotics is irresponsible anyway. I can tell you as a keeper, I have never seen a zoo that considered education about husbandry of these or other animals to be a prior uppity or even worth concern. It just isn't what zoos are about. Let's take it to an extreme. Are we to consider their example of how we should keep other exotics as an example of proper husbandry for say, Tigers? Hippos? Elephants? 

Most zoos who are keeping mixed species exhibits, are NOT breeding them, and if they do breed, they culled. There are generally active protocols to limit or prohibit breeding. They take into consideration other factors as well.

I'm with you though in that I dislike mixed species exhibits at zoos. If they're going to do them, they could be so much better done. I've seen a handful of really amazing ones done, properly, with endemic species, native lpflora, etc, but sadly this is the exception to the norm.


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## Igot99problems (Jun 20, 2014)

I guess my post came off like I was bashing the zoo which wasn't necessarily my intention. The thing that bothered me was several frogs were clearly wrestling with each other. Besides that, I really enjoyed The National Amphibian Conservation Center! I would recommend it to any amphibian lover. I also commend them for keeping the zoo open after the city wanted to shut it down. It's now privately owned.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I understand your frustration, I promise. More so than many will ever really know.

But having been a zookeeper, and dealt with this exact issue at the institutional level, I can tell you it is often far more complicated than people think.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

No controversy, first and foremost, but IMO it is simple: is it right or not to mix frogs?
What I argue it is that the rules (all rules, also the rules that regulate how to keep properly dart frogs) are valid for everyone. If mixing frogs is wrong for privates, it is also wrong for zoos.
I have expressed myself in this (and similar) thread only because it seems to me - I say 'seems' because I'm not clever enough to grasp the nuances of meaning of some posts in your language - someone justifies zoos that mix frogs, while on the contrary we all blame the privates that does the same.
For me it is right to reiterate that mixing frogs is wrong, without justification, for both, zoos and privates. That said, then, both are free to do what they want with their frogs.
Another thing I notice it is that some time ago someone asked if he could mix frogs. Now I notice that these people post pics of vivs with mixed frogs, and this seems to me as if they presents us a 'fait accompli' asking us if they did well. That is how they looking for our approval.
Such people lack of the basics of breeding frogs. Or at least they lack the basics of breeding frogs responsibly.
However, if it is allowed for zoos to mix frogs for the pleasure of visitors, why it should not allowed the same for a private for his own pleasure (if he like a 'viv-minestrone soup' of frogs)?
As I said above, I personally do not like the double standard.
In conclusion there is no law that prohibits mixing frogs and everyone does as he pleases.

I hope I have well expressed myself and I apologize for my linguistic errors.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I have always wondered about this, too. I just figured that our hobby just had a different opinion on keeping multispecies tanks than that held by zoos and aquariums. I figured that since they were supposedly experts that they could get away with doing things that us amateurs just shouldn't do. Sounds like that might not be the case.

I would submit that, if it is not part of the mission of the zoos to be examples of good husbandry techniques, it might should be. Because of the standing a zoo has in terms of being supposed experts, they can do far more damage to our hobby by displaying tanks that don't include best husbandry practices. If I see an animal at the zoo kept in a way different than what I do at home, I will assume I am wrong and that this is the way the animal ought to be kept. I will also be more hesitant to listen to advice on boards like this one that flies in the face of what I saw at the zoo. At bare minimum, I would be confused and at a loss for how to reconcile the two viewpoints or techniques.

I completely agree that an average hobbyist doesn't need to know particular husbandry practices for hippos or elephants. However, if there are animals in the zoo that are readily available as pets, there should be an obligation there to keep them in a way that doesn't violate best husbandry practices.

Having said all that, Doug, I know there must be huge pressure from many angles in that environment and I trust that it is much more complicated than I could know. I guess I am referring to how things ought to be in a perfect world. I don't mean to second guess zookeepers or disparage the occupation 

This is just my opinion, and a relatively ill-informed one, at that...

Mark


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Most Zoos do not have the least bit of interest in educating individuals as to proper husbandry of exotics. Education at Zoos isn't about husbandry. Many zoos adopt a policy that keeping exotics is irresponsible anyway. I can tell you as a keeper, I have never seen a zoo that considered education about husbandry of these or other animals to be a prior uppity or even worth concern. It just isn't what zoos are about. Let's take it to an extreme. Are we to consider their example of how we should keep other exotics as an example of proper husbandry for say, Tigers? Hippos? Elephants?
> 
> Most zoos who are keeping mixed species exhibits, are NOT breeding them, and if they do breed, they culled. There are generally active protocols to limit or prohibit breeding. They take into consideration other factors as well.
> 
> I'm with you though in that I dislike mixed species exhibits at zoos. If they're going to do them, they could be so much better done. I've seen a handful of really amazing ones done, properly, with endemic species, native lpflora, etc, but sadly this is the exception to the norm.



As another zookeeper, I agree with this statement completely.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

There seems to be some confusion, and I plan to expand on it later, but just so I'm clear.

I Am against mixing on virtually all levels, including Zoos and Aquariums. The issue just isn't as black and white, cut and dry as people would like.

Having been a keeper, and had to deal exactly with this issue as a keeper, I plan at somepoint to explain the complex issue. Its quite a bit more complicated and variable than people think. Its really something I want to address in a blog style post rather than buried in the bowels of some random DB thread.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Encyclia said:


> I have always wondered about this, too. I just figured that our hobby just had a different opinion on keeping multispecies tanks than that held by zoos and aquariums. I figured that since they were supposedly experts that they could get away with doing things that us amateurs just shouldn't do. Sounds like that might not be the case.
> 
> I would submit that, if it is not part of the mission of the zoos to be examples of good husbandry techniques, it might should be. Because of the standing a zoo has in terms of being supposed experts, they can do far more damage to our hobby by displaying tanks that don't include best husbandry practices. If I see an animal at the zoo kept in a way different than what I do at home, I will assume I am wrong and that this is the way the animal ought to be kept. I will also be more hesitant to listen to advice on boards like this one that flies in the face of what I saw at the zoo. At bare minimum, I would be confused and at a loss for how to reconcile the two viewpoints or techniques.
> 
> ...


You're more on point here than you know. I can just tell you though, that probably no keeper, curators, etc has ever sat down and approached an animal, their exhibit, etc and considered:

"What kind of example does this set for the public who might want to keep these as pets?"

It simple isn't on a Zoo's radar. Should it be? Maybe. Having been there and done that though, I can tell you more than likely no. That really isn't a Zoo or aquariums mission. They have MUCH more important matters to consider.

I can tell you, in that "perfect world" many keepers would love to devote PDF(and many other andimals) exhibits to single species. Often times you're dealing with budget constraints, surplus animals, and a host of other issues completely out of control. Their are WAY more unfortunate compromises that have to be made as a keeper than is ideal.


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## Sawickib (Jul 26, 2015)

Ok ive got another question haha, I moved the blue frog to its own ten gallon, and was thinking of getting another for the ten gallon, would that be ok?

The green one is in the 40 gallon now, but I was wondering if they are as bold as Phyllobates bicolor 'Green Leg' - Black Legged Poison Frogs -. I think i might be rehoming the green frog and getting 4-6 of these frogs in the 40 gallon, what do you guys think?

Another question, do any of you guys use springtails? Are they a good thing to add to the tank?

And lastly how much should i be misting? My humidity is normally at 75%... And ive been misting once a lot about every two days.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

People have kept and bred pairs of tincs in ten gallons for a very long time. That being said, I wouldn't personally do it. I believe that bigger is better. Phyllobates bicolor is incredibly bold, however, since you have already housed other frogs in the tank, I would highly recommend a total break down and sanitation to avoid transfer of pathogens.

As far as the rest of your questions, they have been discussed ad nauseum, please read as much as you can from http:// http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/166498-popular-helpful-beginner-discussion-threads.html


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> You're more on point here than you know. I can just tell you though, that probably no keeper, curators, etc has ever sat down and approached an animal, their exhibit, etc and considered:
> 
> "What kind of example does this set for the public who might want to keep these as pets?"
> 
> ...


While I agree this is certainly possible in some zoos, it's not correct with all zoos. When I worked for the St. Louis Zoo and the (much much much smaller) St. Louis Children's Aquarium a great deal of time, effort, and money was spent on education and outreach to the public especially for exotic animals as pets. To be fair, I will say I was a researcher in both instances, so maybe I was only seeing that side, but at least they had the programs. Today I work with two zoos that house endangered species and the same thing is true. Yes there are a lot of considerations that go into an exhibit beyond what is strictly best for the animal, but every zoo I've worked for or with had their animal's welfare as their primary concern with education a close second. And while I haven't seen each of the zoo's I've worked with dart frog exhibit, I've seen some and know some of them are housing mixed species dart frogs tanks.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Sawickib said:


> Ok ive got another question haha, I moved the blue frog to its own ten gallon, and was thinking of getting another for the ten gallon, would that be ok?
> 
> The green one is in the 40 gallon now, but I was wondering if they are as bold as Phyllobates bicolor 'Green Leg' - Black Legged Poison Frogs -. I think i might be rehoming the green frog and getting 4-6 of these frogs in the 40 gallon, what do you guys think?
> 
> ...


The green/black frog (d. auratus) will be out and about a lot. I have two adults and about 13 froglets. The froglets tend to hide under anything/everything until they are about 5-6 months old (at least mine do). My two adults startle fairly easily, but are very active. I rarely look into the tank and don't see them. I don't have Phyllobates bicolor, but I do have several Phyllobates terribilis. So I can't comment directly on if the green one is bolder than p. bicolor or not. If p. bicolor is similar in behavior to my p. terribilis, then I would say the green/blacks will be moving around more. But to be fair, all my adult p. terriblis are really fat (I way over fed them when I first got them ) and they just sit looking at me when i walk by waiting for food. So normal ones might be as active as my green ones. 

The blue one you have (d. tinctorius) is also a fairly bold frog. I have four adults (two pairs housed separately and each pair a different color morph). The smaller tank is a 20 gallon long and has two that are the same color morph as yours. You might consider swapping tanks on the two frogs you have now, but I'm suggesting that because the blue frog (as an adult) is much larger than the green one will be. If you decide not too, I think you can still keep two blue frogs in a 10 gallon tank. Especially if you have good leaf litter and ample places for them to shelter under.

I mist once a day to try and maintain humidity in the 75-80% range. And I use springtails, but primarily to seed new tanks. I don't typically use them directly as a feeder food.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rigel10 said:


> I think differently about the zoos.
> In my opinion it is in no way justified for a zoo mixing frogs. Because a modern zoo has its justification in offering the public the most correct way possible to keep animals. Otherwise it does not make sense. It makes no sense to keep the animals in cages for the sake of offering an 'exotic show'. It makes no sense to keep the animals in cages for... what? Gain?
> A modern zoo should have educational value.
> This is my opinion.
> ...


Lets flip this around. Do you want to be held to the same levels that an accredited institutional is in how they keep and manage their animals including requirements to track and manage populations, on call 24/7 vet care, routine fecal and physical checks, review of a board that any deaths, breeding, health and escapes? Keep in mind that most of the enclosures hobbyists construct are nothing like the real habitat of the frogs. For example, the inclusion of epiphytic bromeliads for species that do not use them as deposition sites and/or are primarily terrestrial. The two are not a clear comparison and to try and equate them isn't as clear cut as people make it. Neither group is doing things optimally...... 

And for the record, the zoos are not out to demonstrate to the public the best way to house animals. The zoo is out to manage the animals in an optimal manner that eliminates as much as possible health and behavioral issues for the animals while allowing the public to see them. I stated much as possible because the knowledge of behavioral issues is an expanding field of knowledge and its constantly evolving to deal with new issues and the other side is that some animals with long life spans have developed behaviors that have become habits and like biting your nails or other stress related habits can be difficult to break. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Igot99problems said:


> I guess my post came off like I was bashing the zoo which wasn't necessarily my intention. The thing that bothered me was several frogs were clearly wrestling with each other. Besides that, I really enjoyed The National Amphibian Conservation Center! I would recommend it to any amphibian lover. I also commend them for keeping the zoo open after the city wanted to shut it down. It's now privately owned.


I have to admit that the implied interpretation here bothers me. Wrestling in and of itself isn't a negative. It is a normal behavior in the frogs that the hobby has decided is a problem. In the bad old days when the frog gods walked the earth, those species were routinely kept and bred in groups using the 5 gallon/frog rule. It is only with the application of the cookbook rules that people have decided that Dendrobates frogs like tinctorious do better in pairs. All the pair advice does is remove the requirement to understand the behaviors of the frogs. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Igot99problems (Jun 20, 2014)

Right after taking this picture the vittatus jumped on the Azureus' back. Just seemed like unnecessary stress to me but I guess if that's normal then no harm done.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

For sure I was not clear. It is certain that at least 90% of members here on the forum is contrary to mix frogs. Forget it the controversy about what is a zoo and what it should be. What I do not like is the double standard. It seems to me - I say 'it seems to me' - that someone justifies the zoos that mix frogs - no matter for what reason. Let's get in the shoes of a novice who asks here if he can mix frogs in a tank because he has seen it done in a zoo and we reply to him that he can not, while the zoo can.
I wonder what he would think.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

There is no double standard.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Sorry but some posts above - (# 14 (permalink); # 15 (permalink); # 17 (permalink); # 20 (permalink); # 23 (permalink); # 25 (permalink) - lead me to think otherwise. Unless I did not understand their meaning.
I do not want polemicize over, because: 1) it seems to me that you and I are against mixing frogs more generally (even if someone does this, zoos or privates); 2) I admit that I know nothing about zoos.
I only say this, and that's it.
About zoos, I notice that, when I was a child, animals, i.e. tigers or lions, were kept in narrow and poorly suited cages and now they are often in large enclosures, some with trees, rocks, pools of water, etc.
When I see the stunning frog vivs of the zoos, so large, so rich in plants, so well constructed, I wonder why it is not the same for frogs, ie to keep them properly.
It is true that on YT I saw a clip with lions and tigers in the same enclosure - and this is a little creepy too.
After all everyone does as he wants with his own animals.


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## Holdway (Jan 26, 2015)

Would it be ok to mix auratus of different color in the same display? (Blue/black, with say green/black) I haven't done this but they would look awesome in a 125 gallon tank. Maybe one of each color morph. JUST asking. Don't want to start another thread for basically the same question?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Please don't. They will breed and produce hybrid (yes, hybrid) offspring. What would be your plan to deal with them?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

If you'd like multi colored auratus for a display, frograck has a beautiful proven trio of turquoise and bronze for sale right now.

El cope can also be quite variable.


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## JMims (Jul 15, 2013)

Holdway said:


> Would it be ok to mix auratus of different color in the same display? (Blue/black, with say green/black) I haven't done this but they would look awesome in a 125 gallon tank. Maybe one of each color morph. JUST asking. Don't want to start another thread for basically the same question?


I agree, don't mix frogs. Every once and a while someone posts a frog mixing thread on here and stirs things up. I highly suggest the search function for any mixing related questions. Chances are most mixing questions have already been covered multiple times on here. These frogs are already so variable and unique within their own morphs...I just don't see the need to mix at all.


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## Holdway (Jan 26, 2015)

There would be no breeding done. I have several different colors now. I guess I should have asked about young frogs (auratus under 1 year) I in NO means am going to mix breed ANY of my frogs!


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Holdway said:


> There would be no breeding done. I have several different colors now. I guess I should have asked about young frogs (auratus under 1 year) I in NO means am going to mix breed ANY of my frogs!


Well again there are basically two sets of opinions. No and yes. I am in the Yes you can mix them camp. When someone provides evidence that there is a biological problem with doing it I will reevaluate my opinion, but so far that hasn't happened.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Nevermind ....


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Sawickib said:


> Hi, I just set an Exo-terra 40 gallon and have two frogs in atm. I was wondering if it was ok for them to be together, also wondering what other frogs i can safely add and how many. The frogs and tank is pictured below.


Stop. This topic has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten to death again...

JBear


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## Igot99problems (Jun 20, 2014)

jbherpin said:


> Stop. This topic has been beaten to death, resurrected and beaten to death again...
> 
> JBear


It's one of the hottest topics in dart frog keeping. How do you expect people not to talk about it?


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Igot99problems said:


> It's one of the hottest topics in dart frog keeping. How do you expect people not to talk about it?


Because there's only one real answer, and we all know what it is.


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## Igot99problems (Jun 20, 2014)

TarantulaGuy said:


> Because there's only one real answer, and we all know what it is.


Yeah but someone new to the forum doesn't know what that "answer" is unless they ask or I suppose use the search function lol


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

The answer is simple. Don't mix species and DO NOT overcrowd. Quite simple principles. 

There are some who think they are experienced enough to do what they want, however, these are glass/acrylic enclosures... These animals don't have the ability to leave the vicinity, regardless of the size of enclosure. 

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rigel10 said:


> For sure I was not clear. It is certain that at least 90% of members here on the forum is contrary to mix frogs. Forget it the controversy about what is a zoo and what it should be. What I do not like is the double standard. It seems to me - I say 'it seems to me' - that someone justifies the zoos that mix frogs - no matter for what reason. Let's get in the shoes of a novice who asks here if he can mix frogs in a tank because he has seen it done in a zoo and we reply to him that he can not, while the zoo can.
> I wonder what he would think.


I know where your trying to go with it and neither group (hobbyists or institutions) are doing things optimally. As a result, you really can't point fingers at one side or the other. 

As for the new person seeing them at the zoo, this doesn't mean that new person is able to get a pass for not doing their homework on what it takes to keep the frogs. If they go home and toss a bunch together without doing the research then they are going to have a fast learning curve as that won't be the only problem. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Igot99problems (Jun 20, 2014)

jbherpin said:


> The answer is simple. Don't mix species and DO NOT overcrowd. Quite simple principles.
> 
> There are some who think they are experienced enough to do what they want, however, these are glass/acrylic enclosures... These animals don't have the ability to leave the vicinity, regardless of the size of enclosure.
> 
> JBear


I would disagree, obviously it's not that simple since most hobbyist that havent visited this forum wouldn't automatically think it's an issue considering most herp keeping hasn't adopted that policy.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

More importantly, take the time to learn about your animals. Strive to provide an adequate environment in your best effort to mimic nature.



jbherpin said:


> The answer is simple. Don't mix species and DO NOT overcrowd. Quite simple principles.
> 
> There are some who think they are experienced enough to do what they want, however, these are glass/acrylic enclosures... These animals don't have the ability to leave the vicinity, regardless of the size of enclosure.
> 
> JBear


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## Holdway (Jan 26, 2015)

WE are here asking these questions because we DO care about our animals!!! If we didn't care or if we thought we knew enough we wouldn't be here asking we would be doing! I seriously doubt that anyone on this site is here more than me spending time reading. I'm here reading, reading, and ..... All the time. I don't care how much two frogs breed it's still up to the keeper to take those eggs or tads and put them into water. With no water feature of any kind how can a tad live and morph into a froglet? I simply wanted to know about mixing young auratus in same tank in concern for health reasons only.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Ed said:


> I know where your trying to go with it and neither group (hobbyists or institutions) are doing things optimally. As a result, you really can't point fingers at one side or the other.
> 
> As for the new person seeing them at the zoo, this doesn't mean that new person is able to get a pass for not doing their homework on what it takes to keep the frogs. If they go home and toss a bunch together without doing the research then they are going to have a fast learning curve as that won't be the only problem.
> 
> ...


I agree with Aspidites73. But we try to do our best. And we do not have the potential of a zoo. But we try...
Of course, it is true that a novice has some difficulty understanding some basic of the hobby, but for me it is important to reiterate them.
Then, again, everyone does as they please.


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## Holdway (Jan 26, 2015)

My last post on this. I have breed exotic finches for over 36 years and this very thing is common practice with breeding finches and some other types of cage birds. In some cases you have to mix color morphs (frog term) when breeding Gouldian finches. You can't or shouldn't breed blue to blue because it produces geneticly weak offspring. You need to breed them with a split to blue. Which will be either yellow or green. So with my doing this for so long I just couldn't understand why you wouldn't do the same thing with frogs or whatever else. I have not and will not ever mix breed my frogs!!! I am still learning and reading everything that I can in order to learn more. In fact I ran across this and it helped me with my understanding a lil more. 




To whom it may Concern

Misuse of Lötters et al., 2007, “Poison Frogs” with regard to poison frog morph design on usafrog.com

It has come to my attention that the webpage Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com has taken certain liberties with sections of “Poison Frogs: Biology, Species, and Captive Husbandry'”, a book I am the main author of. Various passages of this book have been used on this webpage as justification for designing unnatural color morphs. That is mixing different natural color morphs of one poison frog species. 

Apart from that I find designing morphs most disgusting, the makers of the designer morphs, on their webpage, notably misuse and incorrectly interpret passages from pages 85, 86, 96-97, 236, 530, and 549 of our book. My opinion and that of other poison frog researchers as well as serious hobby frog breeders is that one must not mix color morphs! 

Given hundreds of natural morphs already exist in nature, encompassing a rainbow of colors and patterns, there exists no justifiable need for such practices. Even if they didn’t, this is reckless and unnatural. Regardless of justifications, the creation of designer morphs is not encouraged anywhere in our book! 

None of the photographs of the front and back covers of our book, or pictures of the pages within it are used on the above mentioned webpage with any permission. Their use should not be considered an endorsement of the ideas of USA Frog.

I prompted the holders of Redirecting you to usafrog.com | donotlink.com to remove the above mentioned book as a reference for making designer morphs! 

Cordially,

Stefan Lotters


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## Sawickib (Jul 26, 2015)

Not sure what that last reply was about tbh but o well.

This is what the tank looks like now, i added plexiglass to the top of the exo terra to with hold humidity. I was also wondering does anyone know how well succulents do in humid weather like in the tank? Will they just die or? Hes a photo haha. Both frogs are seperated, the blue one is in here.


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## JMims (Jul 15, 2013)

Be careful with plexiglass, there's a good chance it'll warp with the humidity being higher on one side.

Succulents will not do well in dart frog vivariums.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

JMims said:


> Be careful with plexiglass, there's a good chance it'll warp with the humidity being higher on one side.
> 
> Succulents will not do well in dart frog vivariums.


Both of these are almost certainly going to happen. Those succulents can STINK if they rot too.


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## Sawickib (Jul 26, 2015)

Hmmm seems i wasted 40$ today then... What happens when the plexiglass warps? Is it un-useable afterwards? 

Can you guys recommend any plants i can buy at home depot/lowes that work well in a dart frog tank?


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## Sawickib (Jul 26, 2015)

If i put saranrap on the bottem will it stop it from warping?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Sawickib said:


> If i put saranrap on the bottem will it stop it from warping?


No.

If it warps enough, the frogs can escape, as well as flies and moisture, thus a decline in humidity.

Another problem I see, your brooms are set deep in the substrate. They'll likely rot this way. They should at a minimum be pulled up so that they're barely in substrate, but preferably hard mounted to a peoce of wood or cork.

MOAR leaf litter.

I applaud your efforts, but I think you should slow way down, take some time to really read through some of the information. You'll save yourself money, and maybe prevent mistakes that may jeopardize the health of your animals.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Hi Sawickib,
It may help to start a new thread with questions. Your current thread title is going to distract people and I think you mentioned you had decided to
separate the frogs. 

If you want to share your general location there may be a local a
frogger nearby willing to help and give you a jump start.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Sawickib said:


> If i put saranrap on the bottem will it stop it from warping?


Since that is an exoterra tank, I assume it has a screen top with cross braces. Did you put the pelixglass on top of that? If you did the screen top should keep it from bowing down. That's what I did on one of my exo terras. Even if the plexiglass did still warp, if it's on top of the screen top your frogs won't get out. My extoterra with plexiglas on top has been up and going for four years and the plexiglass is fine. Most of my exoterras however have clear plastic wrap over them. I then set the screen top on top of that and lock it in place. I leave about a 1/4-1/2 inch gap (depending on the size of the tank) in just the plastic wrap at the front of the tank, so that air through the front vents keep air circulation going. You'll probably have to fiddle with the gaping based on your tank's humidity to keep the glass from fogging up.

Prayer plants (How To Grow Prayer Plants (Maranta leucoreura) & Prayer Plant Propagation - Gardening Know How) are available in lots of gardening stores. They have done very well in my dart tanks. In fact mine grow like crazy and I have to prune them. They have a sturdy stem and frogs can climb and sit on the leaves. Anthuriums (http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/houseplants/anthurium/anthurium-care.htm) also do very well and have sturdy limbs. I like ferns so I have a fair number of those in tanks. I also use Swedish ivy, jade plants, and wandering jews.


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## big_frog (Mar 16, 2010)

Sawickib said:


> The tank my bad thought it loaded the right photo.


The only reason I'd say not to mix is because of tank size. I have an 8ft long 300gal with several species together for 3 yrs now with no problems at all.
That being said I don't think you'd have any problems with those 3 frogs. Luecs would be a better choice with Auratus in my opinion though


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## big_frog (Mar 16, 2010)

rigel10 said:


> I think differently about the zoos.
> In my opinion it is in no way justified for a zoo mixing frogs. Because a modern zoo has its justification in offering the public the most correct way possible to keep animals. Otherwise it does not make sense. It makes no sense to keep the animals in cages for the sake of offering an 'exotic show'. It makes no sense to keep the animals in cages for... what? Gain?
> A modern zoo should have educational value.
> This is my opinion.
> ...


Frogs are not bred in mixed species groups at zoos. These displays are for educational purposes. Breeding programs for most species including froge are done behind the scenes and strictly monitored and documented. I know cause I work at a zoo caring for avian species in the SSP that are never seen by the public


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