# a couple of questions if you will! ;)



## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Hi all! I apologize in advance for having been able not to find answers to some of my questions...and thank you for taking the time to help me out! (as I'm gaining experience maintaining tree frogs more than anything else)

Dart Frogs vs mostly Neotropical Treefrogs

]]]I don't understand why/how the humidity is different for the two different type of species...take for instance the Dendrobates imitator(a thumbnail I'm interested in) and one of my Phyllomedusa tomopterna's....both located in PERU....both arboreal(yes???) frogs...my tiger striped's have a screen top for the tank, which i cover 75%-ish w/ Syran Wrap.........w/ the imitator(and it seems all dart frogs?), there is no need for a screen top at all or any of that approach...............why is that? 

]]]On the topic of breeding and "lines"(i.e. This species of frog is from So-and-So LINE)...i can see how/why it would be important to identify which line, anyone given frog hails from......but i haven't heard mention of this w/ regard to say...tree frogs and such........is that because something like a RED EYE tree frog is more common and it doesn't "matter" where HE or SHE comes from(c.b. wise)...........i'm trying to understand why in the dart frog community there is this significance attached to this concept(and i have to be honest, the more i'm reading about it, the more fascinating it is!) and not elsewhere.....unless of course, i just haven't come across it yet! Should i be CONCERNED w/ knowing this for each of my animals in the future?? For instance, Mike Novy provided me w/ the red eyes and tiger stripe's.....so would that be a "Mike Novy Line"? And if I ever wanted to breed these frogs.....would it be smart NOT to breed his because they're all from the same 'clutch'/line? It's hazy for me obviously...and I'm interested in clearing this up, so that i know and all is....almost...understood 

]]]Do you guys ever go in there and routinely clean your tanks? I don't know what size and how much a DART FROG's poop looks like....but obviously...I have to mist most of my tanks twice daily...and clean the crap out at night from all of those piggers!! (i guess i just have this envision of a dart tank being setup differently and thus, handled differently...........once you set it up, close it off....it's self sustaining(plants, humidity, water-feature, micro evironment and all) save for the food!....maybe that's wrong though)

I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I'm sure there'll be something in the future..........thanks again for reading! 


Alex


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

well for your first question most darts prefer very hight humidity but that doesn't mean no screen necessary. i have a inch screened in section in the front of all of my ten gal vets simply for air circulation. so high humidity yes but with the need for some air flow too. not to mention if you get to pumilio, its best if there leaves are dry 15-20 min after misting were as others like it soaked all the time.

question no.2 i cant tell you all of the reasons for keeping lines strait but some are... first locality some frogs carry a very different appearance even if they are the same species. this is very evident in intermedius where some have blue legs and some have orange legs. as for line breeding its best to avoid sibling breeding but good to stay in there line. 

and cleaning a dart Viv really isn't necessary if all your plants are living, and the micro fauna pooping then cleaning really isn't a problem between the bugs and plants they are natural janitors.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Tomopterna is a type of monkey frog which covers themselves in a waxy substance which keeps them moist in the dry season,while darts hide in the moist leaves or rotted logs,ect when the dry season hits.Tomos are supposed to be kept at dryer temps.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

moothefrog:
You're probably thinking of P. bicolor or P. sauvagei(the giant and waxy monkeys) as the ones w/ the skin substance to keep them moist...even P. hypochondrialis are at dryer temps but not my Tomopterna's.....they're like the red eyes and like it humid 


sounddrive:
It just seemed from everything I read that no "screens" were used, so I naturally presumed  I like the imitators and the tincs, dart frog wise....

I spoke to Mike Novy today about the "line"(his and in general) and he told me that all mine are "F1" except for the albino red eye........the main reason I brought up the subject here, is of course it seems like a lot of these dart frogs are self sufficient(minus food) in their tanks and will readily start breeding.....and as a dart frog owner, i am now almost assuming that one has to take on the responsibility of KNOWING where these amphibians are coming from, and if they are SUPPOSED to be breeding them and all......If i want the d. imitator tarapota(sp?) for instance and in eventuality, i have to be concerned w/ which line and generation the frog(s) in question are linked w/.....to even begin to consider...a future "family" w/ and for them, yes? A whole spin I wasn't first envisioning, gauging, conceiving..............is this true though, in anyway?

As to the micro fauna cleaning the tank w/ the plants........another dumb question: do you have to "buy" them to put in there or are they going to naturally appear of and on their own volition? I've noticed some little insects in a couple of my exo terra's....that I know i did NOT put in there.......so far so good..

Thanks again!


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

sounds like you are catching on pretty well. some of the (bugs) will appear and some like spring tails and woodlice you will have to seed the tank with. but you are definitely in the right direction. keeping the lines separate is the only way to keep from ending up with one big washed out species of frogs.
Steve


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Oh,sorry,It been a long day.Yeah,I meant hypos.Keep us posted on your viv build,what frogs you get,ect.
JP


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Couple of more questions while I'm thinking good here 

]]]D. imitator care: What is the IDEAL tank size?(for one; a pair) Is it more ideal to keep a solitary frog or at least a pair? And the only way to INSURE a pair is to get them ADULT size correct? I like the exo terra's a lot and if 10gallon(vert) are an ideal size, then perhaps the 12 X 12 X 18(11gal+) tank would work........however if their temp is supposed to be within 70-80 degrees F, that might not work......as i have one tank that size for some squirrel and green tree frogs...and i noticed during the day it's extremes 79/88 degrees(that's w/ the compact light fit for those tanks.............so that might not work because of that temp, yes? (unless a different light is used?) Since there is potential rivalry between two males and two females, i wouldn't want that situation if one tank will be dedicated to this species.....

I'm NOT a do-it-yourself-er at all....so using SILICONE/GREAT-STUFF/making-my-own-background, i'm COMPLETELY trying to shy away from!! And I know, a lot of people probably say this/feel this way.....i do like to plant in my terrariums however..............most familiar w/ POTHOS, PHILODENDRON, DIEFFENBACHIA, ALOCASIA(big leafed plants for my tree frogs)......which....probably aren't bad for darts/imitators? It's the substrate that might be getting used to....since....it appears you don't stick w/ ONE but a combination....i'm used to something like pea gravel for drainage, peat moss for the plants, and then a top layer of coco fiber............(for the red eyes and tiger stripes i use something else per the breeder but won't get into that here since it wouldn't apply to darts i can see)...................the reason for a combination substrate is to make it last longer and/or moisture holding?

The micro fauna like springtails can be ordered? And their whole purpose is to recycle frog poop and...uhm..keep the soil "just" so.........perhaps be food for supposed forthcoming froglets? Are there ever accounts of them ESCAPING? Because obviously that wouldn't be an option! (i'm not an insect person at all, but have come a looooooong way in my 10 month experience of the frog hobby  )

The D. imitator tarapota......how is the best way to go about in getting one/some of these guys? I know this answer all ready actually: a breeder!!! Let's refine that question: who is the best person to get these guys from?  Is there someone that specifically has the orange-ish head w/ the blue legs? (i went to my first frog/reptile show in Maryland a couple of weekends ago...and saw my first D. IMITATORs there!!! i believe they were the green variety, and it was from BLACK JUNGLE....i'm thinking about going to HAMBURG, PA show in a month as well) Obviously if i could find a 'breeder' at one of these shows, with reliable information about the frog and possible sexes, that would be better than getting it shipped but..............i suppose those are the two options, yes?

Guess I better start.......practicing on......those....little.......jumping........flightless....insect "balls" called fruitflies, yes? heh.......ugh....... 

One last question: in references to D. tinctorius. the "dyeing frog" is not a morph, but refers to the WHOLE species because of the feather dying story, yes? 

Thanks again!  


Alex


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Whoops, i forget to ask this:

Which generation am I interested in having, to make sure the actual "poison" is out of the frog's system, if you will...(i know i'm not electing to have P. terribilis and P. bicolor but still!)? Do I want at least f2 and "later"? I think I'm semi coherent on the concept...


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

A ten gallon is considered bare minimum, but the more room the merrier. I have my group of 4 in an 18x18x24 exo terra, and love the front opening aspect of the tank.

Those plants are fine, but I'd watch the diffenbachia. Some people, me included are very sensitive to it's sap, and I'm not sure what would happen if a frog came into contact with it after trimming the plant. You want a well-draining substrate. Mixing cypress mulch or orchid bark in will help.

Springtails are sold by the majority of the vendors here, and probably most who sell darts in general. They serve as tank janitors, cleaning up waste and such, as well as frog munchies. If they escape, chances are they'll dry up in the lower humidity environment of your house.

There's a pretty active frog group in your neck of the woods - check out the "Regional Events" section. BJ probably breeds them, as well.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Some more questions after s'more research 

]]]The water feature/water dish deal: If I were going to do a water feature, it would've been the small Exo Terra Waterfall(i had my first one back in January and the water level kept "depleting"....i kept refilling, and eventually it flooded the tank...........i bought another one at the MARS show a couple of weeks ago, and cleaned it for the first time.....the same thing is happening again! Gah! I have a medium Waterfall and that one works fine....but there is a "gap" where the exo terra fogger is supposed to go(which i do not use).....so i think that gap would probably be too much room for DROWN-AGE issues w/ dart frogs........as I said i'm not a do-it-yourself-er, so probably am not interested in making one. I haven't really seen much about water dishes for dart frogs.............so other than aesthetics, is there even a REASON for a water feature? I don't believe I saw mention of it in the "Making a PDF TANK 101" thread.........................................do dart frogs not "dip" their butts or have need to soak in water like tree frogs? W/ the recommended film cannisters setup throughout the tank(for tadpole depositions?), would that act the same? 

]]]Onto the fruit flies: I'll learn more about this by first hand experience obviously; "ff crash" is the whole culture dying or having its 'cycle' end early on you? also, how do you "gutload" a fruit fly?(or does that only apply to bigger insects like crickets, etc?) unless it's what you put in the "MEDIA" that does this for you? hmm....i know dusting is key with any feeding of reptiles and amphibians but.....

PS - a 20 L tilted vertically.......wouldn't half of these tanks that are turned vertical, have the potential to easily get KNOCKED over, ruining everything?(they wouldn't have as much stability as they would their horizontal right side down, yes?) still tossing ideas in my mind about tanks and all....


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about a water feature.

"Crash" is an artifical decrease in production, typically that the FF culture will no longer produce flies, and/or all the files in the culture died. Make sure you practice making cultures for a couple months before getting frogs, and try to find a local frogger you can depend upon in an emergency. 

Vertical tanks have quite a lot of weight at the bottom; thus, toppling over is typically not a concern if they're on a stable and level surface.


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

First of all, dart frogs in captivity, whether wild caught, F1, F2, etc. do not have toxins after they eat fruit flies; since they do not have a chemical source to make their toxins from. That said, wild caught frogs will take a while to lose their toxicity.

A 20 vert is a good size for a trio of thumbs, however, you might consider a zoomed or exoterra terrarium first, since they are already front opening and fairly well built. As for substrate and drainage layer. I prefer eggcrate for drainage due to its lighter weight (I have been moving every year for the past 6 years). I also prefer a mixed substrate to deal with drainage better, you could go straight peat, ecoearth, or fine cocosoft; however I find it holds in way to much water; thus I add fir bark, walnut shells, coarse cocosoft, and clay to provide better drainage for my plants.

As for water, I have a low section in the front of each of my tanks where the substrate is replaced with large rocks or similar to allow the frogs access to the water reservoir in the drainage layer. If you have bromeliads, you also have another water source for the frogs.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I definitely prefer the EXO TERRA's over standard fish tanks, because of the front door access! It's just the fly proofing....*grumble**mumble*  

I hear you about the lighter way drainage....I shall be moving sometime within the next year I'm sure....and I'm MOST concerned about my 18 X 18 X 24 red eye tank.....since I have GRAVEL/PEAT-MOSS, and everything in there! Ughhhh! I can take the water fall out....but in situations like this, do people generally keep the tank planted and set up, and get help to move it or.........break it down entirely for the move?(those that use gravel for drain-age)

I may have fixed my small waterfall for my hex tank......if i did, then i MAY consider using that model for darts and the imitator................which brings to mind, WATER and FRUIT FLIES! Those w/ water features out there.....how often are you changing that water because of fruit flies?? I know crickets are stupid and like to drown all the time.......same w/ ff's?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Some FFs will drown, but I also have several frogs who have figured out flies stuck in a water feature are easy pickings. 
I honestly don't change the water in the water feature. All the gunk that collects in it is great for the tadpoles.


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

Not to mention fruit flies are light enough that they don't get as stuck as crickets. The only drowning I get are in broms and film canisters where the sides are really steep.

For moving, I get help with my two largest tanks, however, my 15H's and 20 verts are all light enough to carry alone. Main reason I use eggcrate vs. gravel.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I second the eggcrate false bottom advice. Definately the lightest drainage layer solution out there, and very easy to drain. When I moved to MI from Texas, I was able to carry a fully set up 18x18x24 exo myself. Removed the frogs and drained out the water beforehand, and they traveled cross-country just fine.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Follow's on species:

It seems if I were interested in D. imitator (morphs) or D. azureus/tinctorius...it does NOT pay to get several(more than two)...unsexed...froglets(i have a thing about getting frogs as babies or juveniles, i enjoy the "growing to maturation" process)........namely because the group situation is something that isn't recommended for those species. More specifically the azureus/tincs because of the female-on-female aggression. So if I were interested in those frogs, or even the imitators(which i completely am).....I'd have to buck up and get a proven pair...which means they would have to be adults. Unless i go w/ the SINGLE froglet. But what fun is that? 

It's come to my awareness that D. leucomelas are COMPLETELY compatible in "group" situations........so.....I COULD go w/ several 3-5 unsexed froglets........and no matter the sex ratio, it would work out? Yes-yes? If so, that is very attractive. We like amiability. Very much so...


---Alex


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Leucs will work out fine in groups, regardless of the sex ratios. Worst you would most likely get would be some egg eating.

I have 2.2 imitators together that are just fine. Breed and wrestle occasionally, but they're tough enough to take it. There's also nothing wrong with raising up groups of tincs, only to remove individuals when problems arise. Just be observant and willing to separate frogs if one gets skinny or submissive. 

That being said, leucs are still my favorite frog


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I'm not looking to breed(how many people say that?? *grin*...we'll stress a big "YET" in there!), so w/ that mindset...I'd prefer ONE tank, per species of Dart frog.(i.e. one imitator tank, one leuc tank, etc)

Is it realistic to think, that w/ a group of D. leucomelas...in...say...an 18X18X24 exo terra modified.......................unless it was unintentionally like all males or all females(heh)...would they BREED regardless of me not "setting the mood", so to speak?(cycling...) I have a feeling that is a rhetorical yes. If the "parents" do not take care of their tadpoles/young like D. imitator for example, and I.....purposely do NOT remove the eggs................is that ethical? is that frowned upon? would that prevent the full cycle of reproduction? And would there be any consequences to the tank in the meantime/ongoing-like?

Thanks again for your enlightenment..


(I can relate to you're liking leucs so much I think........my favorite treefrog is the P. tomopterna, because of the aesthetics....but....the blue phase white's treefrog and his/her DOCILE nature, no matter what...is a true win-me-over element! Who am I kidding though---I LOVE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY "BABIES"!!!!!!!!      hehe..)


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Leucs are odd in that they are generally very easy to breed, but for some people, they jut don't seem to want to do it. That being said, they will most very likely breed if there is at least one male and one female present in the viv. If you're not going to pull the eggs or tads, build a water feature into the vivarium; that will allow a couple tads to be transported and possibly morph out in tank. As far as ethics go, I'll leave that up to you.


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## postal (Aug 12, 2008)

Regarding tincs/az-

You can buy a number of froglets and raise them until their old enough to sex, and then keep a pair and sell the others. You will actually get more money than you paid because they're old enough to sex...

However my first and biggest concern is the temp of the tank. You mentioned your current tank gets to 87-88.... You've got to figure out how to absolutely NOT let a tank get over 80... or no darts for you....

Also, I think a water dish or something is important. My tinc loves to sit in the water. Even sleeps in the shallow water quite frequently.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

The Exo Terra tanks that I have(or for that matter, ALL tanks) have screen tops w/ syran rap covering a majority for humidity(tree frogs!)......so the Light Fixtures(both aquarium florescent and the exo terra compact ones) produce the heat and transmit it through the screen easily....which is why I get some of those 80's tempts..

It is to my understanding that having GLASS tops will eliminate the majority(if not all) of the heat from the lights....is that correct? If so, will the plants be able to receive enough from the light through the glass? (in example: Exo Terra : Products : Compact Top) I'll obviously test this out, but I'm sure the tank will be in the 70's w/o that heat....

Mites. Mites. Mites. What draws them eventually, to the fruit fly cultures...and not, to my cricket cages? Is it the media? I have carrots/potatoes in w/ my crickets...........this is a big concern for me...as I'm sure it is w/ everyone that starts out............to not want the flies to get out.....and these mites to even come about.............ESPECIALLY if one---ME---is to be living w/ other inhabitants!  How reliable is this mite paper, and/or the paper towels sprayed w/ the mite solution? 

I have all of my tanks, frog/cricket craze in my BEDROOM.........so one can understand my concern 

In all eventuality, I think I'm going to go w/ a group of LEUCOMELAS in an 18 X 18 X 24 exo terra............ If possible, I may purchase the actual tank this coming weekend at Hamburg, Pa....and a few fruit fly cultures! Yet, I'd like everything possible, figured out in my head..........firstly and thus so, before.....the inconceivable could/would happen! Experience dictates else though, over research


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Glass will still transmit heat, but I'm unsure how it would compare to plastic. 

Just throw FF cultures away at 5-7 weeks, and you shouldn't need mite paper/spray.

A group of 3-4 leucs would do well in an 18x18x24 exo. They would also be more tolerant of higher temps than most other species of darts. When I lived in Texas, they occasionally experienced temps up to ~90F and are still alive and kicking. Seem to do much better in the high 70s, low 80s, though.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

yours said:


> If so, will the plants be able to receive enough from the light through the glass? (in example: Exo Terra : Products : Compact Top) I'll obviously test this out, but I'm sure the tank will be in the 70's w/o that heat....


Well, you can use compact fluorescent bulbs with the compact top, those'll generate very little heat. Should be no problem in a 18''x18''x24''...
(In a 24''x18''x18'', I've got one 26W compact fluorescent bulb, and one with 18W. Room temperature's currently at 76°F, tank temperature goes up to 77°F after several hours of lighting.)


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Yep, I use(and would use) the Repti Glo 2.0 Compact Full Spectrum Terrarium Lamp (Exo Terra : Products : Compact Fluorescent Bulbs) w/ Exo's......and a 25w red bulb for a couple of tanks...which I obviously wouldn't need for the darts...

Okay, that light w/ the fixture would work for the darts....check!

I think I would still use the mite sheets(or sprayed paper towels) to be on the safe, almost-absolutely-sure side!  Has anyone that has had mites(seems like everyone could run into them), ever had them spread to their frog/gecko tanks? I hear they are not bothersome to frogs, but are VERY VERY bad for geckos...which again, is something I want to avoid entirely!

I've read through some books and links for the fruit flies.....yet am still a little unclear.....seems like there is constant "juggling" action going on..........when I FIRST get the culture(either in the mail, or from the show)..what is the first thing I am doing w/ it? removing the flies to start up another/new one right off the bat? Or...waiting.....for a few days? It's the timing/schedule/routine that I'm a little unsure about.........when to remove the flies to start new cultures......when/which to remove to feed to the frogs........(i got the date-labeling effectiveness). I was at PETCO the other day and saw that they had Flightless Drosophila melanogaster cultures...which is good to know that an availability is just around the corner.......yet..........they are not dated and the associates there know nothing pertaining to that, which isn't surprising when I asked....................so without making the culture yourself(or having an experienced person do it)....it's really just a shot in the dark, yes? The culture could have been around for two weeks or SIX weeks really, yes? Which might turn into a worthless wash in itself because of that......


Thank you again for helping me out! 


Alex


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Alex,

I know a couple froggers are located locally to you - I'd recommend seeking them out so you have a source if/when you have a FF emergency. Generally, I try to use the first batch of FFs produced by a culture to seed the next round. 
Are you using the exo-terra 2.0 bulbs through glass? Glass blocks UV.


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## postal (Aug 12, 2008)

Glass still transmits heat.

Distance from the light to the glass to have air circulation between the 2 helps, but it does still warm up. I have a fan pointed at a tank to remove heat from lights, but my new tank will have a hood with a venting fan built in. Already a work in progress.

(hint! Go to an appliace parts store and get a refrigerator condenser motor and fan...or evaporator motor and fan- they run on 110V are are almost dead silent! (condenser motors are quieter but larger).... but no whine like computer fans and no DC power supply to mess with either!)

Petco/petsmart whatever FF's... worthless. Old mite infested cultures. Last ditch effort only, and dont put the culture anywhere near your normal cultures.... you dont want to contaminate the area.

You can easily keep mites away from your cultures by placing them in a container with a little water on the bottom as well.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I've heard about the water-at-the-bottom-of-cultures trick...might have to try that when the time comes 

So if Glass blocks UV(i'd be using the exo terra 2.0 bulbs, what do people use for their plants?? Couldn't find anything in the search under "glass top lights", "lights for glass tops", etc...............I'm beginning to wonder if the Glass top is the way to go now......hmm...


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Plants don't need UV - I use a regular 6500-6700k flo bulb. 2 4' bulbs over 3 18x18x24 exos, with glass tops.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

from the hagen website on the bulbs for 2.0

"* Ideal spectrum for all reptiles & amphibians
* Stimulates plant growth
* High visual light output
* Stimulates appetite, activity and reproductive behaviour through UVA radiation
* High Colour Rendering Index of 98 (CRI) - 6700 K
* Recommended in combination with Repti Glo 5.0 or Repti Glo 10.0, depending on the reptile's requirements"

So will ANY of that be present if the glass is "blocking" the benefits? I enjoy the light output, plant growth stimulation, and appetite/activity/reproductive behavior obviously as a result of the 2.0 bulb....


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

The glass is blocking the UV, therefore the benefits of UV will not happen. 

That being said, the plants will do just fine as long as the lumen output is high enough for them. 6500-6700k is ideal.
I am planning on utilizing UV bulbs on all my frog vivs after the new tops are constructed. I'm doing so by placing the UV bulb over a 3'' screen vent across the front of the vivarium. Although UV is not necessary, I believe it is beneficial to the frogs, but I don't think it (greatly) benefits the plants.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The glass will not transmit the UVB which means you will have to dust the food items with a balanced supplement. 
The light transmitted will be fine for plant growth but do not expect it to supply the UVB for vitamin D3 production. UVA does not enable the frogs to manufacture vitamin D3 from provitamin D. 
UVA does enable a number of herps to have better behaviors (for example, anoline lizards use UVA for signaling (the dew lap reflects UVA) (as do the belly patches in Sceloperous)) but this may not be of any importance for most frogs.

Ed


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I have read that Drosophila melanogaster do not really climb as much but act more as "ants", staying on the bottom of the tank...........and/or they cannot get through the top screen that Exo Terra's come w/........any truth to this?

If so, I still wonder then....if I'd even need to replace it w/ a glass top...thus benefiting from the full potential of the fluorescent light, and just using Syran Wrap as I do now for my tree frogs?

What say you? 


Alex


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

The FFs will and can get through the screen exo-terra tops.


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