# Anyone have experience with Variabilis & T. Azureus?



## Brad23 (Apr 19, 2008)

I've planted out my 55 gallon tank and it is loaded with grape wood, cork bark and a myriad of orchids, bromeliads, emerald plants, vines and soon to be added leaf litter. 

I've been to the sticky thread about mixing and I tend to agree that "some" can be mixed. What I want to know is if anyone has had experience mixing Variabilis and T. Azureus. I would also be interested any mixing knowledge of Ranitomeya and Dendrobates.

Thanks,

Brad


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

easy, and ill save you tons of trouble........dont do it.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Here is what everyone is going to tell you.

The tank is too small to mix those species.
You have not done/ do not have enough knowledge of the individual species.

There will probably be more added.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I have an Azureus I can throw a saddle on, I really don`t think it would be a good idea to mix those two.
There is so much you can do with a tank that big.

John


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I wonder if variablilis would make a tasty snack?


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

frogface said:


> I wonder if variablilis would make a tasty snack?


Like little green cheese doodles!


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## Brad23 (Apr 19, 2008)

I guess I assumed since they or at least the my variabilis stay up top and my azureus stay down low they would be an alright match. My azureus also turn their nose up at week old turkistan cockroaches so I never considered the varis being on the menu. Thanks for all the replies.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Don't mix, plain and simple. Also, grape wood isn't very good in vivs, it tends to constantly mold.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I really don't know if the variabilis would be in danger of being eaten. I do know that when my 'non-climbing' frogs see something up high that they want to eat, they climb up there and eat it.

btw, l like grapewood because it molds. It keeps my springs and isos happy


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## Brad23 (Apr 19, 2008)

Sorry, I meant Swahala wood and you're right terrestrial guys don't have a problem going up when there is a meal to be had. My favorite part of feeding time actually.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Thank you for understanding Brad. We are all just trying to save future stress on you and your frogs.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Speaking personally, with the way my tincs eat, I'd have to feed them to death before they'd let any thumbnails have a bite.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> I wonder if variablilis would make a tasty snack?


Sigh.. on what basis do you think that a tinctorius would be able to swallow a frog the size of a variabilis? It wasn't that many years ago that people were discussing that azureus (which are a form of tinctorius), didn't like to eat anything larger than a fruit fly. . As an indication of thier diets check out this reference http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br/articles/volume9/number1/913752.pdf

There are no records of anuran prey in the stomachs of Dendrobates tinctorius. 

It is fine to discuss the issue but there really isn't any need to provide incorrect information or extreme exaggerations.. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> Sigh.. on what basis do you think that a tinctorius would be able to swallow a frog the size of a variabilis? It wasn't that many years ago that people were discussing that azureus (which are a form of tinctorius), didn't like to eat anything larger than a fruit fly. . As an indication of thier diets check out this reference http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br/articles/volume9/number1/913752.pdf
> 
> There are no records of anuran prey in the stomachs of Dendrobates tinctorius.
> 
> ...





> I wonder if variablilis would make a tasty snack?


followed by



> I really don't know if the variabilis would be in danger of being eaten.


Now how do you get that I am saying that tincs would be able to swallow a frog the size of a variabilis? What incorrect information or extreme exaggeration am I providing?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> followed by
> 
> 
> 
> Now how do you get that I am saying that tincs would be able to swallow a frog the size of a variabilis? What incorrect information or extreme exaggeration am I providing?


Then why did you post that variabilis would make a tasty snack? Several posts later you then commented that you weren't sure if it would be eaten (but left in place the implication that it was a real possibility). The person was inquiring about housing them with azureus... if you did not think the azureus (a type of tinctorius) would be able to eat the variablilis then why did you make the comment? 

Care must be taken when making these sorts of comments as they can become established in the community as "facts".. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

But, but, I didn't say they would make a tasty snack. I said I *wondered* if they would, because, I didn't know if they would but was curious to know. 

This is the way I was using the word wonder: wonder - definition of wonder by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

2. To be filled with curiosity or doubt.

The meaning of the second post was that, while I didn't know if they would be eaten (though I did wonder),* if* they were to be considered food, I didn't think being a terrestrial frog would keep the Azureus from climbing to get them. 

Sorry if my posts were unclear. My language skills are usually better than that.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Ed said:


> Care must be taken when making these sorts of comments as they can become established in the community as "facts".


This should be Dendroboard's tagline, really. If I had a penny...

Regarding mixing, I think it's a shame people make a mockery of posts like this. Yes, newer hobbyists want to mix but I wish the reaction was a bit more constructive rather than just "don't do it".

Personally, what stops me from mixing species (specifically, thumbnail with large "terrestrial" frog) is the risk of stress to the thumbnail. I doubt any dart frog we keep would actually eat the thumbnail. Actually the scientist in me wants to see what would happen if you kept a terribilis with a young imitator - would the terribilis have a go? And if it did, what would happen to the terribilis? Of course, my conscience prevents the experiment.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

johnc said:


> This should be Dendroboard's tagline, really. If I had a penny...
> 
> Regarding mixing, I think it's a shame people make a mockery of posts like this. Yes, newer hobbyists want to mix but I wish the reaction was a bit more constructive rather than just "don't do it".
> 
> Personally, what stops me from mixing species (specifically, thumbnail with large "terrestrial" frog) is the risk of stress to the thumbnail. I doubt any dart frog we keep would actually eat the thumbnail. Actually the scientist in me wants to see what would happen if you kept a terribilis with a young imitator - would the terribilis have a go? And if it did, what would happen to the terribilis? Of course, my conscience prevents the experiment.


I have seen first hand a number of long term mixed tanks(5 plus years) in Germany and Holland containg a mix of Tincs/Leucs/Auratus and thumbs. It can and has been done, as long as attention is paid to setting up multiple feeding stations and providing the thumbs with some breeding/hiding areas that the larger frogs can't reach easily. 

Unfortunately I have also heard a number of accounts of Terribilis/Bicolors eating smaller darts which is why the Europeans will only mix those frogs with Tincs, larger auratus morphs or treefrogs.

*Yet again perhaps if we actually help people instead of just blindly parroting information provided by other in many cases unreliable sources perhaps our hobby can continue to grow and attract new members. Not everyone wants to maintain single species tanks only. They should be helped and advised, not shouted down and mocked.*


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

johnc said:


> This should be Dendroboard's tagline, really. If I had a penny...
> 
> Regarding mixing, I think it's a shame people make a mockery of posts like this. Yes, newer hobbyists want to mix but I wish the reaction was a bit more constructive rather than just "don't do it".
> 
> Personally, what stops me from mixing species (specifically, thumbnail with large "terrestrial" frog) is the risk of stress to the thumbnail. I doubt any dart frog we keep would actually eat the thumbnail. Actually the scientist in me wants to see what would happen if you kept a terribilis with a young imitator - would the terribilis have a go? And if it did, what would happen to the terribilis? Of course, my conscience prevents the experiment.


I know what you mean...I know a guy on here kept Imis with Terribilis and reported no problem from what I remember but man those guys are the bulldogs of pdfs...lol. Here is the link to that tank Im talking about.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/22002-60-gallon-construction.html


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> I have seen first hand a number of long term mixed tanks(5 plus years) in Germany and Holland containg a mix of Tincs/Leucs/Auratus and thumbs. It can and has been done, as long as attention is paid to setting up multiple feeding stations and providing the thumbs with some breeding/hiding areas that the larger frogs can't reach easily.


I have such a tank containing the very frogs mentioned. Its 3'tall and 4' across and have had groups of azureus and variabilis for years in it. Observations/conflicts? The azureus take small food items and I've rarely observed the azureus higher than a foot up the tank. Conversely, the variabilis have their own micro environment in the top foot of the tank--hide spots, calling positions, transition lanes, breeding pool...
I've never seen a variabilis in the lower sections. I feed large flies on the ground and small flies in the canopy...I've yet to see an interaction between species.
So, it can be done. If you have to ask yourself if the tank is big enough to pull it off, then its probably not.
Scott


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I would love to have seen that tank Scott. Do you have any photos?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

SMenigoz said:


> I have such a tank containing the very frogs mentioned. Its 3'tall and 4' across and have had groups of azureus and variabilis for years in it. Observations/conflicts? The azureus take small food items and I've rarely observed the azureus higher than a foot up the tank. Conversely, the variabilis have their own micro environment in the top foot of the tank--hide spots, calling positions, transition lanes, breeding pool...
> I've never seen a variabilis in the lower sections. I feed large flies on the ground and small flies in the canopy...I've yet to see an interaction between species.
> So, it can be done. If you have to ask yourself if the tank is big enough to pull it off, then its probably not.
> Scott


I said before your tanks reminded me of the way the Europeans do things, although I don't remember seeing that tank when I was at your place last weekend. Must have suffered from sensory overload

This is the kind of information the hobby needs, instead of a bunch of people spouting blindly about things they have no experience with. As John mentioned a full tank shot would be highly appreciated whenever you have a chance.


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

johnc said:


> i would love to have seen that tank scott. Do you have any photos?


how did you guys miss a 3x4 foot tank ?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

SMenigoz said:


> how did you guys miss a 3x4 foot tank ?


Pretty easy when you have 60 or so. They all start to blend together. Like I said sensory overload


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> I have seen first hand a number of long term mixed tanks(5 plus years) in Germany and Holland containg a mix of Tincs/Leucs/Auratus and thumbs. It can and has been done, as long as attention is paid to setting up multiple feeding stations and providing the thumbs with some breeding/hiding areas that the larger frogs can't reach easily.
> 
> Unfortunately I have also heard a number of accounts of Terribilis/Bicolors eating smaller darts which is why the Europeans will only mix those frogs with Tincs, larger auratus morphs or treefrogs.
> 
> *Yet again perhaps if we actually help people instead of just blindly parroting information provided by other in many cases unreliable sources perhaps our hobby can continue to grow and attract new members. Not everyone wants to maintain single species tanks only. They should be helped and advised, not shouted down and mocked.*


edit: (I started writing this before Scott posted his experience, but didn't finish until afterwards)

Thanks for this. I was wondering if any of the people responding had actually tried any mixed tanks.
I have only been keeping frogs for two years. After being successful with leucs, a very experienced frog keeper told me that it would be OK to keep a pair of azureus and a couple imitators in the same 20 gal tall as long as there was plenty of places for the imitators above the ground. After a year and a half there have no issues what so ever. The azureus breed like crazy. The imitators are well fed and call all the time. (I have 3 males, only two call, but the third is always out and very healthy). During the rare occasions when the two species are in close proximity, they seem to totally ignore each other and have been seen feeding side by side.
I do not have enough experience to endorse anything, much less mixing species. I am just giving an account of what has been happening in my tank for the past year and a half.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnc said:


> Personally, what stops me from mixing species (specifically, thumbnail with large "terrestrial" frog) is the risk of stress to the thumbnail. I doubt any dart frog we keep would actually eat the thumbnail. Actually the scientist in me wants to see what would happen if you kept a terribilis with a young imitator - would the terribilis have a go? And if it did, what would happen to the terribilis? Of course, my conscience prevents the experiment.


Hi John,

Several years ago in the British Bulletin of Herpetology, there was a good article on D. truncatus and the author commented that this was a larger species that did well with sympatric thumbnails. 

Ed


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

My goodness, this is turning into a constructive discussion!


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I posted my experience in a similar thread a couple months ago or so:

In a newly constructed 90 gallon vert(36"H x 18"W x 31"D) from a couple years ago, I simultaneously introduced juvenile frogs of the following: 2 H. azureiventris, 2 D. tinctorius azureus, and a handful of R. imitator cv.

After about five-six months, the D. t. azureus matured and started hassling/bullying the R. imitators, noticeably so....the H. azureiventris did not take too kindly to the D. t. azureus as well, showing some conflict as well, especially during feeding time, despite multiple stations set up.

Common sense, based on these observations, told me to remove the D. t. azureus in favor of their own separate tank. The other two continue to share a sympatric 'Peru' life.

I believe that Scott's successful experience and my own unsuccess, cannot be considered anything absolute on this topic....but just that, experiences here to be shared for all. The interested party's own instance may be different entirely, and as said before....it may very well be an individual like basis, in which close observation need be paid no matter the case. 


Alex


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

yours said:


> I posted my experience in a similar thread a couple months ago or so:
> 
> In a newly constructed 90 gallon vert(36"H x 18"W x 31"D) from a couple years ago, I simultaneously introduced juvenile frogs of the following: 2 H. azureiventris, 2 D. tinctorius azureus, and a handful of R. imitator cv.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this, on behalf of all of us who were ''spouting blindly with no experience''

John


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have a question.. when did azureus get elevated to subspecific status? 

As I understand it, it is a color variation of D. tinctorius and that there are no subspecies currently designated for tinctorious so as I understand it, it should not be named as D. tinctorius azureus... 

As I understand it, it should either be listed as D. tinctorius or simply as azureus.. 

Ed


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

There is a lot of stigma on mixing in the US hobby, I know. Being Dutch, I have two years of experience with mixed tanks; in Europe mixing is not frowned upon so much. Under certain circumstances, it is possible. Enough space is essential, especially vertical orientated tanks are appropriate. The smallest tank I've had a combination with, is 40 gallon (Azureus and red vents).

In my experience, succes can be optained if you combine a climbing species (Ranitomeya) with ground dwelling species, like phyllobates, tinctorius etc. 
The size difference has not been a problem in my experience. The tincs and thumbs ignore each other and go their own way. 
Combinations I base my experience on:
Azureus with red vents (One year, both species flourished and reproduced)(40 gallon)
Alanis with red vents (just recently, not enough to establish success, but not seen any worrying interaction yet) (100 gallon)
Bicolor with vanzolinii (For several years, both flourished and reproduced) (100 gallon)
H. azureiventris with red vents (One year, see above)(40 gallon)

It is absolutely crazy to think that the larger species will try to eat the thumbs. I have not noticed anything in this direction and a watch each tank at least one hour a day.


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

40 Gallon horizontal & 100 gallon vertical


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I do the same thing with pums, to differentiate betwixt morphs(i.e. Oophaga pumilio 'solarte' vs. O. pumilio 'darklands').

Nothing I would consider to be entirely right or wrong, but something that seems to work for me and keeps my own mind sound in the juggling of the specific animals in question *grin*

And...not to deter from the intent of this particular thread. 


Thanks,


Alex


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Suzanne said:


> There is a lot of stigma on mixing in the US hobby, I know. Being Dutch, I have two years of experience with mixed tanks; in Europe mixing is not frowned upon so much. Under certain circumstances, it is possible. Enough space is essential, especially vertical orientated tanks are appropriate. The smallest tank I've had a combination with, is 40 gallon (Azureus and red vents).
> 
> In my experience, succes can be optained if you combine a climbing species (Ranitomeya) with ground dwelling species, like phyllobates, tinctorius etc.
> The size difference has not been a problem in my experience. The tincs and thumbs ignore each other and go their own way.
> ...


Thank you Suzanne for a very helpful post.

I would like to also say that the person who made the ''eating'' comment a few pages back did so in a joking manner and was not at all serious.
Thanks again.

John


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

yours said:


> I do the same thing with pums, to differentiate betwixt morphs(i.e. Oophaga pumilio 'solarte' vs. O. pumilio 'darklands').
> 
> Nothing I would consider to be entirely right or wrong, but something that seems to work for me and keeps my own mind sound in the juggling of the specific animals in question *grin*
> 
> ...


Not detering at all. Do you use the inverted commas as a routine item or no? The commas would at least indicate that it isn't meant to be a subspecific identification..


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

Sometimes jokes get a bit 'lost in translation' so to speak. That's a risk of online forums. Thanks for the tip


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Suzanne said:


> Sometimes jokes get a bit 'lost in translation' so to speak. That's a risk of online forums. Thanks for the tip [/QUOTE
> 
> Understood.
> 
> John


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

Since many of you express to be interested in experiences with combinations, I have translated a table that summes up the experience with combinations of dendrobatids found in Belgian and Dutch forums. It can be a first guide when thinking of combining species. I hope you find this usefull.
It is an excelsheet compressed to a zipfile.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Yep, I normally use the single quotation mark to suggest that....unfortunately I'm at work and on my phone, so sometimes I sacrifice the proofreading process in light of that.

Hehe, thanks Ed 


Alex


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

johnc said:


> My goodness, this is turning into a constructive discussion!


Interesting the way that can happen when the OP takes the advice provided and run with it, huh?

I have no experience mixing variabilis and azureus. However, from my individual experience keeping variabilis solo, my variabilis use the ground quite a bit. I'd say it's about 70/30 arboreal/terrestrial. I think maybe a better species would be imitators as they're probably 98/2 arboreal and terrestrial (once again, this is just from my _own_ experience).

Also, a much bigger thank than the 55 gallon mentioned.


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## Brad23 (Apr 19, 2008)

Thanks for all the info. I wasn't sure it was a joke. I just thought that maybe my year and a half of forum life and research I had missed an article about terrestrials attempting to eat thumbs. I guess I'm a bit of a new father and am overly cautious.

I have for the time being decided to forgo the mixed tank and perhaps with a little more experience and a vertical tank I'll revisit the issue again.

Thanks.


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