# Crooked Leg on Imitator



## RyanD (Jul 18, 2006)

Anyone seen something like this before? My other imitators are doing great, all of them are eating well but this one just has a crooked let. I purchased these from a guy on craigslist who raised these himself. Could it be a nutritional thing or just damaged when he/she was younger? He hops really goofy because of it but so far doesn't seem to effect his ability to eat. (the picture is a little blurry but his back right leg is crooked and stays that way)









Is there a list of specific deformities that occurs in dart frogs? I have heard of spindly leg syndrome but from searches and google this doesn't seem to be the case.


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## RyanD (Jul 18, 2006)

After moving him and the other two to their ten gallon vert, he has lost some weight. He seems to be having more difficulty getting around, possibly because hes weaker from not being able to get the ffs. I was watching him yesterday, and he was going for the fruit flies, but definitely not with as much gusto as the other ones. He trips up over the leaves and just can't hop around as well. Any tips for helping him? Should I put him in his own, smaller tank? Like pickle jar size? Just so he doesn't have to move around as much, or would that stress him out too much?

The other two are doing perfectly fine. I got these from craigslist, so I have no idea the background behind them.


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## sampson1269 (May 4, 2010)

look up SLS and see if that fits, if it does ya got a bad deal on that one. the pros could tell ya better than me


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## mcaiger53 (Jan 3, 2011)

I don't know about the leg, but I don't think its SLS. If he is losing weight because he can't keep up with the other 2, I would put him in his own tank. I wouldn't go as small as a jar, probably just a simple set up 10. I have a giant orange that had a leg issue when it was a froglet, and also got "out competed" for food and got pretty skinny. I moved it to his own tank and it recovered. 
Mike


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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

I think mcaiger has the right idea. I have an auratus with a similar problem that I bought off another member. It takes a little extra food to keep it's weight up, and the other auratus don't mind being a little chubbier. I don't know what it might be other than a deficiency (seems unlikely, since the other frogs in the same tank are fine), a dislocation-prone joint, or something else. Back in my herp class at college, I remember something about a parasite that attacks tadpoles at their leg buds and causes problems... but that is neither here nor there.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

It looks more like the result of physical trauma. Not spindly leg.


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

It could be Short Femur Syndrome, which is related to SLS.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Possibly. From the angle of the photo it's too hard to tell. You'd need to post one with the legs stretched out more to gauge proportion.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AzureFrog said:


> It could be Short Femur Syndrome, which is related to SLS.


Hind limb development occurs well before front limb development (although the limb buds form at the same time) and if it was a case of SLS, the froglet would probably not have had front legs.... 
Since it is crooked and permanently so according to the first post, we can easily rule out short femur as well (which is also probably caused by husbandry..)

As a best guesstimate, it is either an old or recent injury to the ankle joint. Chris has the right idea on it.


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## RyanD (Jul 18, 2006)

Well I know for sure this is not just isolated to the one frog. This is now my third imitator thats died with similar/almost identical issues. I have one left... Symptoms slowly progress over about 2 weeks. My guess is that they may just die of starvation, although this one wasn't particularly skinny. Their back legs seem to seize up and they can't hop as well, the front legs also began to look peculiarly crooked/bent.

Highest temp it ever gets is 79 at the top. 80% humidity. Tanks has been set up for 5 months. I received these frogs in December from my fiance, who breed these himself and was advertising on craigslist. I have no genetic background or nutritional background before I got them. But I feed them (and my leucs and azureus) flies everyday and dust them twice a week. 

Three months ago both of my frogs were scurrying around perfectly fine. (these definitely scurry compared to my leucs which hop, not sure if thats normal)

I am beginning to think chytrid fungus. Which is bad.... My dads a vet and Ill have access to a lot of stuff. Before I do a ton of research, has anyone hear of isolating and identifying chytrid other than using PCR? There a scope at the clinic I could use... I know they have plates for bacteria but pretty sure theres none for fungus. 

Heres a pic I took of my "healthy frog" for comparison. I had to trick him to jump on my arm to get a good shot. I googled imitator bellies and my dead one did not have normal legs this past week.









And another: 









And heres the dead guy: 









Notice the really weird femur, the curve of the ankle and how thick the tibia is (if he was wasting away youd think hed be thinner. 









Heres the full album for more pics: Frogs pictures by ezekiel3714 - Photobucket

I am gonna see if my dad's doing an xray for any dogs this week, maybe I can slip him in there and get an idea of the bone density/structure. I did cut the guy open and go over him fairly well with a jewlers loupe 20x magnification to look for worms or something. I didn't see much except that he hadn't been eating for a while. His toes were also pretty blood shot looking. (could be post-death thing?) So far all three frogs that have died have had little functionality of the hind legs and were sort of twitchy.


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

RyanD said:


> Well I know for sure this is not just isolated to the one frog. This is now my third imitator thats died with similar/almost identical issues. I have one left... Symptoms slowly progress over about 2 weeks. My guess is that they may just die of starvation, although this one wasn't particularly skinny. Their back legs seem to seize up and they can't hop as well, the front legs also began to look peculiarly crooked/bent.
> 
> Highest temp it ever gets is 79 at the top. 80% humidity. Tanks has been set up for 5 months. I received these frogs in December from my fiance, who breed these himself and was advertising on craigslist. I have no genetic background or nutritional background before I got them. But I feed them (and my leucs and azureus) flies everyday and dust them twice a week.
> 
> ...


That's awful  I'm so sorry this happened


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Why are you only dusting the feeders twice a week when you are feeding them daily? What are you dusting the feeders with?? This is a good method to cause calcium deficiencies as well as other deficiencies both of which can impact growth and feeding. 

As for chytrid, attempting to use a microscope can be very hit or miss for diagnosis since you actually have to sample the section that is infected and this has been sporadic for successful identification unlike PCR.. With that said, I have to ask what is the average temperature in thier cage? The reason I'm asking that is because chytrid doesn't kill frogs unless they are consistently below 75 F (and can't bask or behaviorally increase thier body temperature above 75 F). 

Some comments

Ed


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## RyanD (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed said:


> Why are you only dusting the feeders twice a week when you are feeding them daily? What are you dusting the feeders with??
> Ed


I feed less fruit flies on the days I don't dust. Probably like 20 each? I generally feed enough on the days that I dust the flies so that the next day theres still a few in there. I used to put so many flies in that there would still be flies in there for at least the next day but i've gotten better at judging how much they eat as they grow. 

I use Rapashy super pig, supervite and "JurassiPet" Jurassi Cal supplement. (apparently 380,000ppm calcium supplement Vit D3 free and phosphorous free) I use about half and half of the supervite and calcium and a tiny bit of the super pig. I keep the Rapashy products in the frig and bought them 6 mo ago. The calcium stuff I don't even remember when I got it but I don't believe that stuff can expire. Correct me if Im wrong.



Ed said:


> With that said, I have to ask what is the average temperature in thier cage?
> Ed


Average temp is about 75. Room temp is set at 70, but with my computer in the room it is always a bit warmer(72). Its a 10 vert. 

It suck worst now that I only have one, but then again, my fiance got them for really really cheap. So not a huge financial loss, which is good.


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

RyanD said:


> I use Rapashy super pig, supervite and "JurassiPet" Jurassi Cal supplement. (apparently 380,000ppm calcium supplement *Vit D3 free* and phosphorous free) .



This concerns me

I think I know what happened then!

From my subtle research, poision dart frogs and other small animals that do not need UVB light _require _ Vitamin D3 to properly absorb Calcium.

Problem solved, your frogs died from a lack of calcium.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Chirkk said:


> This concerns me
> 
> I think I know what happened then!
> 
> ...


Sorry to say, but that sounds dead on. Unless you have a special UV lighting system, and you also have a specially modified top that will allow UV penetration, then there was no D3 available to them. No D3 means that calcium cannot be absorbed and utilized.
I'm sorry for your loss. I hope you'll stick around to learn more and give it another go when you feel you are ready.


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## RyanD (Jul 18, 2006)

I guess i thought supervite had vitamin D3 in it, hence the name SuperVite. I read on the ingredients list it has Vitamin D 20,000 IU/lb.. but thats not D3... right. Wow I feel dumb.


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

From what i'm reading for curing, if you hop on it quick, you can maybe help the surviving frog. Read up here:

Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

RyanD said:


> I guess i thought supervite had vitamin D3 in it, hence the name SuperVite. I read on the ingredients list it has Vitamin D 20,000 IU/lb.. but thats not D3... right. Wow I feel dumb.


OK, you may be ok on that after all if that is included. He doesn't have the full analysis of Supervite on his website and I don't use it. His Repshy Calcium Plus is the product I use.
I know that the Repashy Calcium line has varying amounts of D3 in it so I just figured the Supervite would not have D3.


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## RyanD (Jul 18, 2006)

I have calcium gluconate 23% that i can dilute to 2% and put a couple drops on the frog. May just do that just to be safe. Any risk for doing that if it is NOT a nutritional thing?

Ive been doing some reading and it sound like either form of vit D is needed for Ca absorption. Which is better Vit D3 or D2? And which does supervite have? 



Supervite Label

NET WEIGHT 5.3 OZ / 150 GR Our Micro Fine Vitamin Supplement powder. Contains both Preformed Vitamin A and Beta Carotene. INFORMATION: SuperVite is the same Vitamin formula that has been the backbone of the SuperFoods line of complete diets and supplements. INGREDIENTS Cellulose, Calcium Carbonate & Dextrose (as carriers), Vitamins: (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement). GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Vitamin A 200,000 IU/lb, Vitamin D 20,000 IU/lb, Vitamin E 2,000 IU/lb, Vitamin K (Metadione) 30mg/lb, Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) 2,500 mg/lb, Vitamin B1 (Thiamine HCL) 40 mg/lb, Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 70mg/lb, Vitamin B5 (Patothenic Acid) 130 mg/lb, Niacin 450 mg/lb, Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 55 mg/lb, Vitamin B12 .4 mg/lb, Folic Acid 20 mg/lb, Biotin 2 mg/lb, Choline 5,000 mg/lb, Beta Carotene 500 mg/lb. DIRECTIONS: This product can be used as a stand-alone supplement, or mixed with the SuperCal series of Calcium supplements to balance both vitamin and mineral requirements. Using a 1:1 ratio with the SuperCal formulas is a great starting point for supplementation depending on species requirements. It can be mixed with SuperCal (HyD, MeD, LoD, NoD), or used on altered feedings for great flexibility. For insects, dust using the “shake and bake” method with or without SuperCal, depending on your protocol. For fresh fruit and vegetables, mix one heaping teaspoon per Pound. For an “All-in -One” solution, please try Repashy’s Calcium Plus. Refrigeration will extend product life.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RyanD said:


> I feed less fruit flies on the days I don't dust. Probably like 20 each? I generally feed enough on the days that I dust the flies so that the next day theres still a few in there. I used to put so many flies in that there would still be flies in there for at least the next day but i've gotten better at judging how much they eat as they grow.


This could be part of the problem. Flies in and of themselves (as with most other feeders) have a lousy calcium to phosphorus ratio. In effect you were only feeding them a balanced diet two days a week, which was when you dusted the feeders. People often forget that proper bone development requires not only sufficient vitamin D3 but a proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus and imbalances in either or both present as calcium metabolism disruption which is typically lumped together as "MBD" by the hobby. In addition, the surplus flies tend to groom off the supplement after about 12 hours resulting in flies with much less than ideal nutritional profiles. 

Typically, you should dust every time you add flies to the tank. 



RyanD said:


> I use Rapashy super pig, supervite and "JurassiPet" Jurassi Cal supplement. (apparently 380,000ppm calcium supplement Vit D3 free and phosphorous free) I use about half and half of the supervite and calcium and a tiny bit of the super pig. I keep the Rapashy products in the frig and bought them 6 mo ago. The calcium stuff I don't even remember when I got it but I don't believe that stuff can expire. Correct me if Im wrong.


Supervite does contain D3. 




RyanD said:


> Average temp is about 75. Room temp is set at 70, but with my computer in the room it is always a bit warmer(72). Its a 10 vert.
> 
> It suck worst now that I only have one, but then again, my fiance got them for really really cheap. So not a huge financial loss, which is good.


At that temperature I would consider a PCR test for chytrid but wouldn't expect that to be the cause of death even if it was positive. Chytrid doesn't cause long bone deformations, like that seen in frogs with calcium metabolism disruptions. 

In the old days, there was a saying among froggers.... "experience is directly proportional to the number of frogs killed".... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

RyanD said:


> I have calcium gluconate 23% that i can dilute to 2% and put a couple drops on the frog. May just do that just to be safe. Any risk for doing that if it is NOT a nutritional thing?
> 
> Ive been doing some reading and it sound like either form of vit D is needed for Ca absorption. Which is better Vit D3 or D2? And which does supervite have?
> 
> ...


From that label, there is no vitamin D3. I've never heard of D2 but the label on the calcium needs to say D3.

But as Ed said, it has D3. I'll take his word on it as he seems to know quite a bit on the hobby


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RyanD said:


> I have calcium gluconate 23% that i can dilute to 2% and put a couple drops on the frog. May just do that just to be safe. Any risk for doing that if it is NOT a nutritional thing?


See my post before taking action. 



RyanD said:


> Ive been doing some reading and it sound like either form of vit D is needed for Ca absorption. Which is better Vit D3 or D2? And which does supervite have?


Frogs as with other amphibians and reptiles cannot use vitamin D2. Repashy products contain D3. 


Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Chirkk said:


> From that label, there is no vitamin D3. I've never heard of D2 but the label on the calcium needs to say D3.


The Repashy products contain D3.... very few herp supplements use D2 at this point. Where people get into trouble with D2 is when they attempt to use human supplements for thier herps. D2 is cheaper than D3, so many human supplements contain it instead of D3 (even though D3 is more effective in people (see for example (in people (http://www.ajcn.org/content/68/4/854.full.pdf). 

Ed


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

Ed said:


> The Repashy products contain D3.... very few herp supplements use D2 at this point. Where people get into trouble with D2 is when they attempt to use human supplements for thier herps. D2 is cheaper than D3, so many human supplements contain it instead of D3 (even though D3 is more effective in people (see for example (in people (http://www.ajcn.org/content/68/4/854.full.pdf).
> 
> Ed


Thanks for the read! Certainly learned some things to be aware of.


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## Allen Repashy (Jul 17, 2009)

> From that label, there is no vitamin D3. I've never heard of D2 but the label on the calcium needs to say D3.


I think you "need" to do a little more research before you make a statement like that   . AAFCO regulations state that when using a premix in your formula that it is listed the way we do it. I can't believe anyone could read "Vitamin D Supplement" on a label and say, or assume, there is no Vitamin D3. We actually use two forms of Vitmain D3..... Regular D3, and 25OHD3, which is a metabolized form of D3 and much more bio available.

Allen


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

RyanD said:


> Anyone seen something like this before? My other imitators are doing great, all of them are eating well but this one just has a crooked let. I purchased these from a guy on craigslist who raised these himself. Could it be a nutritional thing or just damaged when he/she was younger? He hops really goofy because of it but so far doesn't seem to effect his ability to eat. (the picture is a little blurry but his back right leg is crooked and stays that way)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a GREAT example of why not to buy frogs from Craigslist. Just to save a few bucks? Look what happened. Know who you get your frogs from, check out their reputation, if possible see the frogs in person or get pics from the breeder. You should be able to be proud of who you got your frogs from. This is an important lesson. Is all this heartache and a group of dead frogs worth saving $5 - $10 on a frog? Think about it people, use some common sense.


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## RyanD (Jul 18, 2006)

I am actually completely ok with my first thumbnails coming from craigslist rather than a reputable breeder. 


I personally wouldn't want to spend over $100 on a group of thumbnails without any experience with them. I got five for $30 or 35, the guy was moving the next day and needed to get sell them and it was a fairly good deal in my opinion. Granted, they all didn't make it but the 6months of experience with them was worth it. (and i still have one) I've learned so much more just from keeping them. Would I buy frogs from craigslist again? Probably not, unless I thought the risk would be worth it. 

I don't really understand what is wrong with buying from craigslist. Granted, there isn't much of a "background", but why is that so critically important? I'm a hobbyist and a beginner, not a professional breeder.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

RyanD said:


> I am actually completely ok with my first thumbnails coming from craigslist rather than a reputable breeder.
> 
> 
> I personally wouldn't want to spend over $100 on a group of thumbnails without any experience with them. I got five for $30 or 35, the guy was moving the next day and needed to get sell them and it was a fairly good deal in my opinion. Granted, they all didn't make it but the 6months of experience with them was worth it. (and i still have one) I've learned so much more just from keeping them. Would I buy frogs from craigslist again? Probably not, unless I thought the risk would be worth it.
> ...


OK since you asked what's wrong, I'll tell you.
I'm not%


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## Chirkk (Aug 12, 2012)

Allen Repashy said:


> I think you "need" to do a little more research before you make a statement like that   . AAFCO regulations state that when using a premix in your formula that it is listed the way we do it. I can't believe anyone could read "Vitamin D Supplement" on a label and say, or assume, there is no Vitamin D3. We actually use two forms of Vitmain D3..... Regular D3, and 25OHD3, which is a metabolized form of D3 and much more bio available.
> 
> Allen


Oh I think I see now. So if a label says like you mentioned Vitamin D, that doesn't scratch out the possibility for variants of Vitamin D? Ugh I fell so stupid.


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