# A great substrate mixture!



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey guys. I've used this mixture in my first frog tank and will continue to use it because i've had great results, and IMO, it looks better than the ABG mix. So here it is, it never compresses and remains airy and looks great.

2 parts of course peat moss (HD sells 100 pound bails of it for 10$)
2 parts of coconut fibers (FROM A BASKET, IT CAN'T BE GROUND UP!!!, it works like the tree fern fiber in ABG but works better in making it airy)
1 part partially dried thin leaves (This provides nutrients to the plants, so acts like a fertilizer but is safe) When I say partially dried, I mean crispy, but still green. This is important.

Then when ready to use, add a cup of cool water for every gallon of mix. Then let sit in a sealed Ziploc or shoe box overnight (It "activates" the aspen leaves, making them a soft leaf, and gives it a dark brown color, which means it's giving nutrients to the plants)
Then add to vivarium! It also smells very nice. You can add bark to the mix, but I find it unnecessary. Tell me what you think! Thanks.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

If I'm not mistaken, that's going to break down pretty quickly and probably won't drain properly. Hope I'm wrong!


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

MrFusion said:


> If I'm not mistaken, that's going to break down pretty quickly and probably won't drain properly. Hope I'm wrong!


I'll post pictures, it drains very well IMO and hasn't shown any signs after 2 months of breaking down.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Here's a pic. It's very airy. In the tank i'm currently building (29g, 20h) I will add some reptibark (I have no access to fir/orchid bark anywhere but online and petstore reptibark.) Sorry for the bad picture, it's in a bag right now for storage. 








The reason for the course peat moss is because all those very tiny stick like things are course cut spagnum moss


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Neontra said:


> 2 parts of coconut fibers (FROM A BASKET, IT CAN'T BE GROUND UP!!!, it works like the tree fern fiber in ABG but works better in making it airy)


i think you should be careful with this since there ids usually a binder in these that could cause problems.

also, there is NO substitute for tree fern. period. 

james


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

james67 said:


> i think you should be careful with this since there ids usually a binder in these that could cause problems.
> 
> also, there is NO substitute for tree fern. period.
> 
> james


A binder? It just seems to want to cling to each other so I chop it up with shears. problem solved. There's no substitute for tree fern? It works just like tree fern fiber would but it seems to work a little better from pics i've seen. Thanks for the info.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> A binder? It just seems to want to cling to each other so I chop it up with shears. problem solved. There's no substitute for tree fern? It works just like tree fern fiber would but it seems to work a little better from pics i've seen. Thanks for the info.


It works short term.. but coco fibers tend to break down fairly quickly.. two months isn't very long in terms of substrates... a year isn't very long in terms of substrates... 

When it breaks down (not if but when), it will compact and potentially result in anaerobic portions of the substrate and/or seeping down into the drainage layer which will wick water up saturating the substrate. At that point, you'll have to redo the tank and tear it all apart, clean it out and start over again... There are reasons that ABG is the most commonly used substrate outside of clay substrates. 


Ed


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Ed said:


> It works short term.. but coco fibers tend to break down fairly quickly.. two months isn't very long in terms of substrates... a year isn't very long in terms of substrates...
> 
> When it breaks down (not if but when), it will compact and potentially result in anaerobic portions of the substrate and/or seeping down into the drainage layer which will wick water up saturating the substrate. At that point, you'll have to redo the tank and tear it all apart, clean it out and start over again... There are reasons that ABG is the most commonly used substrate outside of clay substrates.
> 
> ...


Never thought of it that way! Well i guess it won't hurt to buy a few bags of ABG. Thanks guys for the info and saving me from a potentially major issue. I read up on your/pumilos thread on clay substrate. Sounds interesting, but would you recommend ABG or clay in ways of having great plants growth (filling up a 20-30g tank in 1-3 months)? I will have a 2 inch layer of clay balls for micro-fauna and root structure growth.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> Never thought of it that way! Well i guess it won't hurt to buy a few bags of ABG. Thanks guys for the info and saving me from a potentially major issue. I read up on your/pumilos thread on clay substrate. Sounds interesting, but would you recommend ABG or clay in ways of having great plants growth (filling up a 20-30g tank in 1-3 months)? I will have a 2 inch layer of clay balls for micro-fauna and root structure growth.


I don't use ABG anymore nor do I use the clay balls. The clay balls under a clay substrate won't work as a microfaunal refugia (and under a layer of older ABG won't work well in that way either....). Clay only works well if you can make sure it drains well (I use an air gap under the clay) otherwise it is going to hold too much water for the plants to do well. 

I also don't use kitty litter so my results vary from some of those seen with kitty litter. 

Also none of the *bales *of peat moss at home depot weigh 100 lbs unless it has been torn and soaked... there is a reason they are sold by volume and not weight... 

Ed


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Ed said:


> I don't use ABG anymore nor do I use the clay balls. The clay balls under a clay substrate won't work as a microfaunal refugia (and under a layer of older ABG won't work well in that way either....). Clay only works well if you can make sure it drains well (I use an air gap under the clay) otherwise it is going to hold too much water for the plants to do well.
> 
> I also don't use kitty litter so my results vary from some of those seen with kitty litter.
> 
> ...


So that's what I was thinking. Clay substrate on hydroton, I don't even think that even makes sense, but just have the clay over either an eggcrate layer or just by itself. When you say old ABG, you mean 5+ years? I could see that being an issue with drainage as the mix slowly breaks down. What if I were to mix in some over the course of a few years to keep up with the decomposition. I was thinking buying 1 bag of ABG (1 gallon) and a 10 liter bag or hydroton to start, and every 6 months mix in a quarter of a bag more of ABG, but would be afraid it messing up the entire biological ecosystem. Also, I don't know if the bale weighed 100 lbs, but as a full grown man carrying 80 lbs bags of concrete around the yard, it sure felt heavy. It was an 8 CU ft bale


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

So guys. Tell me what you think. Since I already have this made, do you think it would work ok within the next 2 years or so if I mix in some fir/cypress bark? Thanks


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

If it were me, I would start all over and do it right. That's actually what I had to do when I first got into the hobby a few years ago. It's a hard lesson, but well learned and well worth it. 

By the way, you should be able to pick up the bark you need at Home Depot or Lowes in the gardening section by the broms. Just make sure you get the stuff that doesn't come with any of the added ferts and whatnot.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> I don't use ABG anymore nor do I use the clay balls. The clay balls under a clay substrate won't work as a microfaunal refugia (and under a layer of older ABG won't work well in that way either....). Clay only works well if you can make sure it drains well (I use an air gap under the clay) otherwise it is going to hold too much water for the plants to do well.
> 
> I also don't use kitty litter so my results vary from some of those seen with kitty litter.
> 
> ...


Then what do you use for substrate


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Coconut fibers are pretty slim....
Tree fern fiber is like little sticks....I'm not even sure why they even call it a fiber :/
There is a big difference.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Coco fibers slim
> Tree fern is like little sticks
> They are different


i like haikus....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Then what do you use for substrate


One of the following (which has been discussed in a number of threads), red art clay/calcium bentonite mix, turface, red art clay/calcium bentonite and turface. I'm still comparing substrates but all of the tanks have one of the above mixes. 

On top of one of the above substrates I use leaf litter, although several have small patches of organics mixed with clay as a trial to see what that does compared to the plain clay. 

Ed


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

So I *must* redo the mix? Because I know what the ABG mix is, and it would kind of be the same, but for tree fern fiber, which I know a few people that use abg don't add it. So I would buy maybe 10 litres of fir bark and mix it in so the ratios get changed a lot.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I would be concerned about the binder that has been mentioned. We are talking about a mystery glue here. What kind of glue is it and what will it do to your future frogs?
Also, it is not "kind of the same". ABG mix has 5 ingredients. Only one of your components matches up with ABG mix. You ask if you MUST change. You don't have to do anything. Personally I recommend that you change it.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> I would be concerned about the binder that has been mentioned. We are talking about a mystery glue here. What kind of glue is it and what will it do to your future frogs?
> Also, it is not "kind of the same". ABG mix has 5 ingredients. Only one of your components matches up with ABG mix. You ask if you MUST change. You don't have to do anything. Personally I recommend that you change it.


Now that everyone's mentioned it, i've seen some pots that have a shiny coat that glues it all together, but the stuff I have wasn't shiny and just looked tightly woven. I forgot to mention I added a little sphagnum and charcoal to the mix


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Seriously man, I would redo your mix. One way or another you'll pay the price if you don't do it right. You may end up with a viv that smells like a rotting swamp among other things. Better safe than sorry! :/


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey guys. Thanks. I just bought a 10 litre bag of hydroton and an 8 litre bag of ABG mix from josh. I hope 8 litres is enough mix to get a good depth, I did some math and I need 10 litres of stuff to get 2 inches in my tank.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

A good thread to read: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/70538-genuine-abg-vs-abg-equivalent.html

Most everyone I know (including myself!) started by using a "good" mix which proved to be quite bad in reality.  No worries!


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Good to hear! Just throw some leaves on top and you'll be all set. 


Something else you could do would be to order a few isopod cultures made with an ABG mix along with a springtail culture and you'll have your substrate AND your microfauna all in one.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Whoa, thanks for the reminder! I forgot I don't have any springs. Haven't had any mold in my first tank, but you never know..


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Hey guys. My ABG and hydroton came in today, but i did something. I mixed the ABG with the substrate above, but before I did, I mixed some pine (not conifer, I believe) that was 20 years old, I picked up a gallon of non decomposed and somewhat decomposed bark, don't worry, since it's soooo old, it isn't harmful (PLEASE correct me if i'm wrong) to just let it drain better.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm confused. So you mixed the good stuff (ABG) with your old substrate that everyone thought you should replace? This cannot possibly improve upon the ABG mix. It can only detract from its function and qualities. There is nothing that should be done to try to make ABG drain better. This is what it's already designed to do. Besides, you still have the "mystery glue" binder in there now.
Also, springtails are not just for mold. They take care of decomposing leaves, frog waste, and are simply a valuable food source.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> I'm confused. So you mixed the good stuff (ABG) with your old substrate that everyone thought you should replace? This cannot possibly improve upon the ABG mix. It can only detract from its function and qualities. There is nothing that should be done to try to make ABG drain better. This is what it's already designed to do. Besides, you still have the "mystery glue" binder in there now.
> Also, springtails are not just for mold. They take care of decomposing leaves, frog waste, and are simply a valuable food source.


Well, not exactly Doug. I dumped the old substrate, but i just tried to save 12$ by making something similar to the abg mix, and mixing real ABG in. It drains almost the same, but i doubled how much substrate I have for free. I didn't know too much about springs/isos when I posted that, but after reading your posts and a few others, I learned more about them.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Check it out:



Neontra said:


> Sneak peaks
> Red wandering Jew flowering
> 
> 
> ...


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## dartboard (Jan 30, 2011)

Why do you keep trying to reinvent the wheel? ABG works great, it is known. Nothing you add will make it better, or everyone would already have it as part of their substrate. I understand the desire to maybe have something different than everyone else, but choose something that has no chance of being a potential harm.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

dartboard said:


> Why do you keep trying to reinvent the wheel? ABG works great, it is known. Nothing you add will make it better, or everyone would already have it as part of their substrate. I understand the desire to maybe have something different than everyone else, but choose something that has no chance of being a potential harm.


Frustrating enough, you're right. But the people at ABG that made the mix surely tried other things out, so why can't I? But really, I think I might just get a bag of it again and say the hell with making something else.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> Hey guys. My ABG and hydroton came in today, but i did something. I mixed the ABG with the substrate above, but before I did, I mixed some pine (not conifer, I believe) that was 20 years old, I picked up a gallon of non decomposed and somewhat decomposed bark, don't worry, since it's soooo old, it isn't harmful (PLEASE correct me if i'm wrong) to just let it drain better.


 
If it is a pine tree it is by definition a conifer. The reason fir bark used in the ABG mix is safe is because it is run through a steam bath and a kiln which forces out the resins that are a problem. 

We have tried to correct you when you are wrong, yet you have persisted under several different screen names of ignoring the advice and deciding your ideas are going to be a better option.. this is typified by the title to this thread... which when examined with your substrate in mind, rapidly became an oxymoron. 

Your mix may drain well now but rapidly it is going to compact as the leaves decompose.. note that people try to use leaves with high levels of lignin structure to maximize thier time when using it as leaf litter yet, leaf litter has to be replaced fairly continously. This is not going to be possible with your "substrate". You have not yet come up with a new idea.. yet you ignore the information by those with more experience in those topics and you even created an "alias" to support you in a prior incarnation to gain some crediability. 
If you want to repair the damage to your crediability, then you should pay attention when someone like Doug gives you advice, since otherwise you are wasting his time and effort. 

As I noted above, this is a short-term success and long-term an issue (not that I would believe you if you posted how well it was doing in a year). 

Ed


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