# Help. Macodes petola dying



## YCKansas

I have had this orchid for about 3 weeks now. When I got it it many of the leaves where white. I am not sure if that is normal or not. Now it is getting brown spots on all the leaves. Is this bugs or to much light? What should I do I really like the plant and want to keep it alive?


----------



## Groundhog

The plant's leaves are supposed to look like the big leaf, upper left. But it is probably not "too much light"--unless you have it say, 6" from 150+ watts! How far from the lights is the plant? 

That looks more like some type of (bacterial or fungal) rot. What is the substrate, what is the humidity, how often do you water? Was it shipped? Possibly chilled in transit?

Jewel orchids need high humidity, but they do not like wet substrates. So do not plant them deeply! They are "humus epiphytes," meaning they run their roots sideways through the leaf litter, not down into the soil (same for episcias and many begonias, btw).

Do you have a wider shot of the entire plant in the tank? So we can get some perspective?

There are several threads on DB on jewel orchid culture.


----------



## Spaff

Groundhog said:


> It is definitely not "too much light." That looks like some type of (bacterial or fungal) rot. What is the substrate, what is the humidity, how often do you water?


Is there any air circulation?


----------



## Groundhog

Spaff: I find these guys can take very humid air, as long their roots are not too wet. (Of course, not sopping like a drip wall covered with emersed aquatics!) 

But I still think we need a shot of the tank to get perspective.


----------



## YCKansas

Groundhog said:


> The plant's leaves are supposed to look like the big leaf, upper left. But it is probably not "too much light"--unless you have it say, 6" from 150+ watts! How far from the lights is the plant?
> 
> That looks more like some type of (bacterial or fungal) rot. What is the substrate, what is the humidity, how often do you water? Was it shipped? Possibly chilled in transit?
> 
> Jewel orchids need high humidity, but they do not like wet substrates. So do not plant them deeply! They are "humus epiphytes," meaning they run their roots sideways through the leaf litter, not down into the soil (same for episcias and many begonias, btw).
> 
> Do you have a wider shot of the entire plant in the tank? So we can get some perspective?
> 
> There are several threads on DB on jewel orchid culture.


It is in a coco fiber/ground up leaves/repti bark substrate. I water only as needed for each plant usually every few days. I do mist twice a day though to keep my humidity up for some new moss. It is not planted very deep now. Its 2 feet from the lights and partially under a piece of wood.

It was shipped. It had a heating pack in the box when I opened it. 

And very little air circulation. I live in Colorado so it dries out very quickly if I leave some screen open.

If it is a fungus would it be best to cut those leaves off before it spreads?


----------



## Gamble

Jewel Orchids like damp soil. What they don't like is constantly wet leaves.
(This is based on my experience).

I will say that as my Mecodes grows, the lower leaves do die off. I do not know if that is normal or not but its still sprouting new leaves & continues to grow.

Also, it may be from not enough light either. 
They dont like constant bright light, but they also wont grow in complete darkness/extreme shade either.
(Again just from my own experience)

Maybe message Mike Rizzo too.


----------



## Spaff

Groundhog said:


> Spaff: I find these guys can take very humid air, as long their roots are not too wet. (Of course, not sopping like a drip wall covered with emersed aquatics!)
> 
> But I still think we need a shot of the tank to get perspective.


I know, but that bacterial one circular bacterial pit looks exactly like spots my orchids get when a water droplet sits on the leaf too long. If there was a bit more air circulation or fresh air exchange, the droplets would evaporate quicker reducing the chance of infection.


----------



## YCKansas

Are these pictures what you are looking for? It is a 18x18x24 Exo Terra tank with glass pieces over the screen for now. I mist heavily 2 times a day. The soil tends to just stay moist, maybe to dry if anything, not to soggy.

I hope the pictures are big enough I have to re-size them to upload them. I'm pretty new to the site so maybe there is a better way.


----------



## YCKansas

Gamble said:


> Jewel Orchids like damp soil. What they don't like is constantly wet leaves.
> (This is based on my experience).
> 
> I will say that as my Mecodes grows, the lower leaves do die off. I do not know if that is normal or not but its still sprouting new leaves & continues to grow.
> 
> Also, it may be from not enough light either.
> They dont like constant bright light, but they also wont grow in complete darkness/extreme shade either.
> (Again just from my own experience)
> 
> Maybe message Mike Rizzo too.


That could be it the water does sit on the leaves for awhile. I do mist a lot to keep my humidity up. Should I put a cup over it while misting to keep the water from directly falling on it?


----------



## Groundhog

Get us a shot from the front!

Gamble: Damp, yes, but not saturated. We still don't know the ambient humidity, if it is "dripping" wet.


----------



## Groundhog

YCKansas said:


> That could be it the water does sit on the leaves for awhile. I do mist a lot to keep my humidity up. Should I put a cup over it while misting to keep the water from directly falling on it?


How about just not spraying this specific plant? Spray around it.


----------



## senditdonkey

Frogs in the tank? A well placed turd gives some of my leaves that type of look.


----------



## YCKansas

Glass stays wet and foggy only on the bottom corners between sprays. My zoomed hydrometer broke after about a week and I never got a new one. I would say it is between 90 and 80 percent humidity. 

No frogs yet, I am building a 40 breeder for azureus's that all these plants will eventually go into and I'm not sure what I will do with this tank.


----------



## Gamble

YCKansas said:


> That could be it the water does sit on the leaves for awhile. I do mist a lot to keep my humidity up. Should I put a cup over it while misting to keep the water from directly falling on it?


That could work.
You really should experiment with the amount of screen you leave available tho.
I'd open it up more. 
You basically want the leaves to dry within 2 or 3 hours after misting. If they're still wet after that, you either need to cut back the misting or increase the amount of ventilation ... or both.

What is your humidity level on a regular basis?


----------



## Gamble

Groundhog said:


> Gamble: Damp, yes, but not saturated. We still don't know the ambient humidity, if it is "dripping" wet.


I agree with you.


----------



## Gamble

YCKansas said:


> Glass stays wet and foggy only on the bottom corners between sprays. My zoomed hydrometer broke after about a week and I never got a new one. I would say it is between 90 and 80 percent humidity.
> 
> No frogs yet, I am building a 40 breeder for azureus's that all these plants will eventually go into and I'm not sure what I will do with this tank.


Analog hygrometers/thermometers are inaccurate junk. You can get a digital thermometer/hygrometer for about $20 from Joshsfrogs. 

IF your humidity is constantly between 80-90%, that's not necessarily a good thing.
You want the tank to dry a little in between misting. Having everything constantly damp/wet 24/7 is a recipe for disaster. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/90220-misting-beginners.html


----------



## mordoria

It could just be die off from the shipping and moving. I find it takes a while to get them looking good after being shipped and unrooted. Jewels are really picky.


----------



## hypostatic

Gamble said:


> I will say that as my Mecodes grows, the lower leaves do die off. I do not know if that is normal or not but its still sprouting new leaves & continues to grow.


My Macodes does this too. The lowest leaves will turn a pinkish color, and then yellowish and fall off.

They are really picky. I had one plant that I introduced to the viv that grew into like 2 nice plants that started to bloom. And then it slowly died. I think something happened to the roots, because it was dying from the bottom up.

I've recently introduced a new Macodes into the viv and it's doing quite nicely (for now...). I think I added it in February? It already has 2 new shoots growing off of it. I'm misting twice daily. I think I'd call it a light mist? I try not to spray the Macodes directly at all, just around it so it has a very fine dew. Once every few weeks I'll spray directly at the root zone one or twice. I'm contemplating not doing that at all anymore; in retrospect maybe this caused the root rot...


----------



## candm519

I love this jewel, one of my favorites. Since you don't have frogs, you can get your hands in there and mess around.

The top of your plant looks great. Did it have roots at all or was it just a cutting?

I remove yellow and infected leaves; they just make fodder for more infection, waste the plant's energy, and aren't going to get green with yellow veins and gold specks sparkling in the light again anyway. 

After cutting off the unhealthy leaves and any mushy stem, dust with cinnamon and tap it off; it will stick to the places it needs to protect. Like fingerprint powder on CSI.

Then I lay the naked stem on/ barely in the substrate layer, and cover with litter. This should keep it nicely moist and encourage growth. Slant it so the healthy top part is entirely visible and not covered.
Check for moisture level after a couple of days. If it seems dry, I put a thin layer of thoroughly squeezed sphagnum under the stem, which will help maintain an even level.

It should now grow roots and hopefully shoots from at least the highest node where you cut off the sick leaves.

And don't worry because the top is now sideways, slanting out of the leaf litter; it'll turn back up toward the light again. You'll have a shorter but healthier plant, and maybe sprouts all along the buried stem.


----------



## YCKansas

Thanks for all the help everyone. I will try not misting it at all. I have been covering it when I mist lately. I have just been misting a lot to try to get my new moss to acclimate. 

It did have some roots. I took all the dirt off and planted it up to the last of the roots. 

I will cut off the white leaves and the ones that have brown spots. And replant it a little higher. I will also give the cinnamon a try? What is that supposed to do for the plant?

Does anyone recommend a specific digital thermometer/hygrometer?


----------



## Gamble

Here ... 
Exo Terra Digital Thermo-Hygrometer - Temp/Humdity Monitoring | Josh's Frogs

You cant leave it in the viv permanently but it does the job.
This is what I personally use.


----------



## YCKansas

Gamble said:


> Here ...
> Exo Terra Digital Thermo-Hygrometer - Temp/Humdity Monitoring | Josh's Frogs
> 
> You cant leave it in the viv permanently but it does the job.
> This is what I personally use.


Thanks ill order one up. I do find it hard to judge humidity by condensation like a lot of people on this forum recommend.


----------



## Groundhog

Thanks for getting to the point Anne--this is the recommended procedure. Good job!



candm519 said:


> I love this jewel, one of my favorites. Since you don't have frogs, you can get your hands in there and mess around.
> 
> The top of your plant looks great. Did it have roots at all or was it just a cutting?
> 
> I remove yellow and infected leaves; they just make fodder for more infection, waste the plant's energy, and aren't going to get green with yellow veins and gold specks sparkling in the light again anyway.
> 
> After cutting off the unhealthy leaves and any mushy stem, dust with cinnamon and tap it off; it will stick to the places it needs to protect. Like fingerprint powder on CSI.
> 
> Then I lay the naked stem on/ barely in the substrate layer, and cover with litter. This should keep it nicely moist and encourage growth. Slant it so the healthy top part is entirely visible and not covered.
> Check for moisture level after a couple of days. If it seems dry, I put a thin layer of thoroughly squeezed sphagnum under the stem, which will help maintain an even level.
> 
> It should now grow roots and hopefully shoots from at least the highest node where you cut off the sick leaves.
> 
> And don't worry because the top is now sideways, slanting out of the leaf litter; it'll turn back up toward the light again. You'll have a shorter but healthier plant, and maybe sprouts all along the buried stem.


----------



## candm519

The cinnamon is used to form a protective shield on freshly cut surfaces, stop oozing 'bleeding', and prevent fungus and mold. It shouldn't hurt frogs when you get them in there.

I found this article online among many, discussing cinnamon health effects. (Thanks, google) It sounds pretty solid to me, but you never know.
WHFoods: Cinnamon, ground


----------



## Groundhog

I use cinnamon as well, and not just orchids! It really seems to work.


----------



## KeroKero

I use cinnamon as well, I just dip the stems in right after I cut them off. 

I'm not sure why people always think Jewels are so picky... they are one of the least picky plants I grow and WAY easier than epiphytic orchids! You just need to know they are spreaders that love high drainage (so best to just drop them into the tank where you want them to root, or root them in moss and put the cutting + moss where you want it), love high humidity but HATE standing water on them, and if you have any slugs at all in the tank they will be on your jewels 

I would take off the yellow leaves and the one with the spotting and just let the plant grow into it's new surroundings. A lot of this could be the typical adaptation phase as it gets used to new conditions and sheds old and damaged leaves that won't help it. Jewels tend to carry only a handful of leaves at one time anyways, so if you're seeing a period of rapid growth you will see a couple go at once. I see this when I change lighting levels or other major environmental changes. Since it had roots and you didn't cut them off when replanting it's also likely going through a stage of "WE CAN SAAAAAAAVE THEM!" and then giving up, letting them die, and growing new ones for the new conditions. If the substrate isn't going in the tank with them I tend to cut the roots off these guys and let them grow new ones because they do it FAST. Can't do it with every plant (many are very touchy about their roots!), but it helps these guys and most other humus spreaders.

A note about the spotting and the high humidity but air movement comments - I have this same jewel orchid growing and blooming in a sealed jar for almost 4 years now. They love high humidity and can handle stagnant almost 100% humidity... as long as droplets don't form on them. If you mist then the plants MUST have the water droplets gone in 2-3 hours no matter the plant. These guys are a great indicator plant on if the water droplets linger too long or soil is too wet, they will show rot (on the leaf, where the petiole meets the step, the rosette of a new leaf, the stems along the ground). While there are plenty of plants that will practically grow in water and not be bothered by it these are conditions that will be healthiest for pretty much all plants you'd want to grow (especially harder stuff as you get more advanced) as well as the frogs (which if kept too wet can develop a number of healthy issues). The rainforests naturally have a humidity cycle of highest around the time of rain, then air movement evaporates off the small droplets. You want air flow enough to evaporate droplets in 2-3 hours, too slow and you'll have rot issues, too fast and you'll have all the water sources in your tanks drying out too.

Indicator plants aren't picky, they are just sensitive about conditions and trying to tell you what is wrong  Rotting out from the bottom is typical of when the substrate is too dense and wet (these guys looooove their ABG mix) but you can usually save the tops and root them. These guys will recover from rot just about anywhere on the plant, and much better than having a whole plant go down because of the same exact issue that you didn't fix when your jewel orchid told you so! (like some very expensive orchids, ferns, and bromeliads I know!) Water droplets not evaporating can mean leaf spotting like in this photo, or the new leaf unfolding can unfurl with giant chunks missing for the same reason or even have the whole growth point die! What do they do? Send out a shoot from the side and hope you fixed the problem LOL.


----------



## YCKansas

KeroKero said:


> I use cinnamon as well, I just dip the stems in right after I cut them off.
> 
> I'm not sure why people always think Jewels are so picky... they are one of the least picky plants I grow and WAY easier than epiphytic orchids! You just need to know they are spreaders that love high drainage (so best to just drop them into the tank where you want them to root, or root them in moss and put the cutting + moss where you want it), love high humidity but HATE standing water on them, and if you have any slugs at all in the tank they will be on your jewels
> 
> I would take off the yellow leaves and the one with the spotting and just let the plant grow into it's new surroundings. A lot of this could be the typical adaptation phase as it gets used to new conditions and sheds old and damaged leaves that won't help it. Jewels tend to carry only a handful of leaves at one time anyways, so if you're seeing a period of rapid growth you will see a couple go at once. I see this when I change lighting levels or other major environmental changes. Since it had roots and you didn't cut them off when replanting it's also likely going through a stage of "WE CAN SAAAAAAAVE THEM!" and then giving up, letting them die, and growing new ones for the new conditions. If the substrate isn't going in the tank with them I tend to cut the roots off these guys and let them grow new ones because they do it FAST. Can't do it with every plant (many are very touchy about their roots!), but it helps these guys and most other humus spreaders.
> 
> A note about the spotting and the high humidity but air movement comments - I have this same jewel orchid growing and blooming in a sealed jar for almost 4 years now. They love high humidity and can handle stagnant almost 100% humidity... as long as droplets don't form on them. If you mist then the plants MUST have the water droplets gone in 2-3 hours no matter the plant. These guys are a great indicator plant on if the water droplets linger too long or soil is too wet, they will show rot (on the leaf, where the petiole meets the step, the rosette of a new leaf, the stems along the ground). While there are plenty of plants that will practically grow in water and not be bothered by it these are conditions that will be healthiest for pretty much all plants you'd want to grow (especially harder stuff as you get more advanced) as well as the frogs (which if kept too wet can develop a number of healthy issues). The rainforests naturally have a humidity cycle of highest around the time of rain, then air movement evaporates off the small droplets. You want air flow enough to evaporate droplets in 2-3 hours, too slow and you'll have rot issues, too fast and you'll have all the water sources in your tanks drying out too.
> 
> Indicator plants aren't picky, they are just sensitive about conditions and trying to tell you what is wrong  Rotting out from the bottom is typical of when the substrate is too dense and wet (these guys looooove their ABG mix) but you can usually save the tops and root them. These guys will recover from rot just about anywhere on the plant, and much better than having a whole plant go down because of the same exact issue that you didn't fix when your jewel orchid told you so! (like some very expensive orchids, ferns, and bromeliads I know!) Water droplets not evaporating can mean leaf spotting like in this photo, or the new leaf unfolding can unfurl with giant chunks missing for the same reason or even have the whole growth point die! What do they do? Send out a shoot from the side and hope you fixed the problem LOL.


Hey thanks for all the info. I replanted it higher, cut the bad leaves off and have avoided misting it directly. I am sure water on the leaves was the culprit as it seemed to have constant water on it and I misted it directly to water it. It seems to be doing better. 

Are you saying that if the bottom of this plant starts to rot you can just cut the top off plant that and it will grow? When I replanted it I left all the roots, should I have cut them off?


----------



## KeroKero

> Hey thanks for all the info. I replanted it higher, cut the bad leaves off and have avoided misting it directly. I am sure water on the leaves was the culprit as it seemed to have constant water on it and I misted it directly to water it. It seems to be doing better.


No problem, I feel like these guys are WAY less tricky seeming if you know what they are trying to tell you  They are also one of my all time favorite groups of plants and I don't want them to have an unwarranted bad rep!

If you are misting by hand it's easy enough to go around it, but just make sure that the plant is getting water around it's roots too! It's a bit of a catch 22 - you want to soak the tank so the substrate is moistened, but in doing so you soak the plants. They usually like this because it cleans their leaves - if you have poo and algae on the leaves then you're not keeping them clean!! Poo should be washed into the substrate (fertilizer, woot!) and algae shouldn't be growing on your plants because water shouldn't be sitting on them long enough for the algae to survive. When trying to get that magic window of 2-3 hours to have the water droplets evaporate I often just have to come back, blot the plant with a paper towel, and try again the next day. If your jewel orchid gets marks during this process just note when they happen and what they look like so you can tell if there are more spots or the spots change shape/get larger later on (a sign that conditions have not been fixed). If the leaf is pretty healthy (less than half the leaf) I have left them on before as under ideal conditions it shouldn't be more than cosmetic (can dust with some cinnamon if you're worried). The leaf you had was already on the bottom, lots of the leaf was already damaged, and the leaf was already overshadowed by another leaf on the plant so it wasn't being useful anyways.

I never mastered the key of condensation as a measure of humidity in my tanks because it actually had more to do with the temperature difference between inside and outside the tank. Bleh. A good greenhouse/orchid humidity gauge (particularly if it has a waterproof probe!) is really the only way to go if you want accurate readings as most are made for regular room humidity levels and usually aren't accurate over 60 or 70% anyways. At this point I don't bother taking readings because I've spent so much time getting the airflow bit right when I set up a tank that as long as the substrate remains moist and the frogs have access to water at all times my humidity is not an issue.

My tanks are on a cycle of a good drench in the morning (no wimpy "misting" for me! MAKE IT RAIN! BWHAHAHHA), water droplets evaporate in 2-3 hours, by afternoon the humidity is relatively low again (60% isn't unheard of in my tanks and I have a number that are full screen lids) but because of the drenching in the morning the substrate is still moist and my ponds are actually just part of my drainage layer open to the frogs so there is always plenty of water. There is a localized higher humidity in my leaf litter and that keeps everything happy. I know a lot of people on here don't do this, but I've had to stick to this since I grow a lot of epiphytes and this is how I managed to keep them both dry but with good humidity at the same time. These humus pocket lovers are pretty much the same way, and jewels in particular are great training wheels for some of the very unforgiving epiphytes that are totally awesome! 



> Are you saying that if the bottom of this plant starts to rot you can just cut the top off plant that and it will grow? When I replanted it I left all the roots, should I have cut them off?


As long as there is still good stem left you have a great chance. Way back when with one of my original Jewels I had an Anoectochilus chapaensis as a houseplant because I had an extra. It was flourishing until I accidently dropped a book on it and the plant snapped into multiple pieces. I was crushed!! I'd grown that plant for 2 years and I had just killed it! Ah, well... thought I did anyways. Three growth points that snapped off and a pile of leafless stem with roots ALL grew back into healthy plants. Each part that snapped off rooted easily in high quality long fiber sphagnum moss, and the mass of stems with roots quickly sent out new growth points and had leafed up pretty quick. I now regularly mow my jewel orchids like this to fill my pots faster (although "regularly" can change depending on the type of jewel - sometimes more than once a year on Ludisia, but maybe once every two for the really slow growers! M. petola is a very fast grower and I can often do this twice a year if I don't care about getting blooms). If the bottom of the plant rots out it's basically the same thing... make sure to cut off any soft mushy bits and as long as there is a healthy node (where the leaves meet the stem) you're usually golden.

I often get flack for cutting off roots but it's standard procedure with a number of other plants that develop roots quickly (but also a great way to freak out people in other plant groups where you can't do that - You did WHAT??). These are not one of the plants that freaks out about it's roots being disturbed. The general thought is that plant roots can be pretty specific about conditions, so when you change those conditions drastically they are going to have to drop those roots and grow new ones anyways. By cutting them off I am saving them that period of trying to make it work (can add weeks of struggle time) and putting the plant straight into making roots mode. Also, when the roots die you increase the chances of the stem rotting from all the dead material turning to slush on them (this is likely why relatively new plants may rot from the ground up). My general rule is that if I can't just remove the pot and plant the jewel with it's "dirt" straight into the tank then I cut the roots off. I typically root cuttings on a thin layer of sphagnum and when roots are established I lay the whole thing - sphagnum and all - on top of the substrate where I want it to grow. Works like a charm. 

Another reason I tend to cut off roots of these guys is because the roots also work as anchors, and when you plant them into the substrate they don't act as that role because you just stuffed them where ever. This is particularly important in areas where they don't have much substrate (like on a rock) so instead of a chunk of roots making them unstable I take them off and let them grow new roots to anchor them in that spot. Pre-rooting them on sphagnum to start the new roots also works great for this as well.

Jewel orchid roots are large and stiff to a degree and typically snap off pretty easily from the stem when the plant is well hydrated. After you snap them off just dust them with cinnamon (make up blush brush or a large fluffy paint brush make quick work of this) and they should be set.


----------



## YCKansas

I am going to transplant it to my 40 gal breeder when its done so maybe I will try to cut off the roots at that time. It just freaks me out haha. The new viv will have a Mistking so I will have to keep an eye on the water sitting on the Macodes cause there is not a ton of ventilation, just 3 2" holes. I'm also putting in these orchids:

Oncidium (Tolumnia)/triquetrum
Dendrobium/normanbyense (atroviolaceum pygmy)
Cirrhopetalum (Bulbophyllum/ Putidum 

I hope I can get a good balance with them. I looked and I think they all require about the same misting. I love orchids, they just add up so quickly and I am nervous about killing them so I'm trying to take it relatively slow. Its so hard though I want them all!


----------



## YCKansas

One last question for all of you knowledgeable and helpful people. I am buying my light for the 40 breeder that the Macaodes, several other orchids and a bunch of Neos are going into once its done. I have my choices narrowed down to these two fixtures. I really want my Neos to color up and do not want to burn the rest of my plants especially my orchids. I would like to go with the LED but am not sure if only having a spectrum of 7000K would be ok. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated as I don't know a whole lot about lighting besides what I have read on here. Thanks!






Amazon.com: Aquatic Life Light T5 HO 2-Lamp Link Fresh Aquarium Light, 36-Inch: Pet Supplies


----------

