# Heart attack or defense technique????



## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Well today i had the strangest thing happen to me. I was cleaning out some plants from my Creek tank and i picked up one of my Creeks. OMQ! the poor thing streched out his whole boddy and froze....i thought he was having a heart attack as he did not move a single bit and his breathing seemed to stop.... I immediatly put him down and left him for 30 seconds before he started to move again....

My Question is, could this have been a small heat attack or just a defense tactic for me to let him go ??


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

just a defensive mechanism. i've had a few frogs stretch out in the superman pose and appear to have seizures when they are stressed. shouldn't be a problem as long as your aren't constantly doing it to the poor fella. you might want to remove your frogs with a frogcatcher before working on the tank to minimize stress levels as you probe around their environment.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2005)

I had a spring peeper do this on me once, but it didnt come back to life. I found it all dried out, next to the water, the next morning. I thought it was just a defence mechanism too.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

You put your frog in major stress. This can also happen without your involvement, especially it seems if you are not dusting the PDF food sufficiently. Many times this will weaken the frog enough to die or stress related issues can eventually come up that will mean its demise. A light mist spray will seem to comfort them. Be careful.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Yeah as soon as this happened i put him in the tank and started the mist..seemed to help alot, i think its because i dont interact with them as much as my other frogs....i can do anything to my other frogs and they are so used to me, they dont care....Thanks for all your input...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This is common with frogs that are operating in a low level calcium deficiency. 

Ed


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*Heart attack*

I have had the exact same thing happen with some of my frogs even if they are given enough calcium etc it still happens.I have a male mantella laevigata who every time I open the lid jumps so hard and so fast dam near knocks himself out he just sits there after to gain composure and he is on his merry way actually funny at first it worried me but after 6 years it doesnt anymore.His name is spaz
later


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Heart attack*



trow said:


> I have had the exact same thing happen with some of my frogs even if they are given enough calcium etc it still happens.I have a male mantella laevigata who every time I open the lid jumps so hard and so fast dam near knocks himself out he just sits there after to gain composure and he is on his merry way actually funny at first it worried me but after 6 years it doesnt anymore.His name is spaz
> later


How can you be sure they are getting enough calcium?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I Dust the FF's three times a week. I dont want to dust them any more since too much of one thing might not be good for them, so i doubt its calcium....maybei should start sweeping more, to get them eating more variety...just hard to sweet when you live in NYC


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## DeeVas (Jul 2, 2005)

i had purchased my first dart frogs around 3 months ago. i brought them home and they seemed fine then i noticed one of them spazzing the next day the other two started to spaz within 3 days they were all dead.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Definitely stress related but that would generally make me think that something was wrong in the tank(temp, humidity or toxin) or that their handling was not so good if they were shipped. If you ship frogs you want to ask that shipper to put the frogs in as big a box as possible. Small boxes are notorious for getting heavy abuse by shippers. I was surprised the other day when from a supposed knowledgeable PDF vendor I got a very expensive shipment in a box that I felt was way to small and one of the frogs really took some abuse...............not happy with the seller.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Before we get a bunch of "who was the vendor david?" 

If you wish to know who david isn't happy with please PM do not ask here.

Thanks


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I don't think a size of a Box is why or why not to choose a vendor. Take it as it was meant.....make sure you take responsibility to get the frogs in proper size boxes and NOT small. This particular vendor is getting out of the business, so it doesn't matter.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*Spaz*

Brian, I give them calcium supps three times a month and vit twice it doesnt seem like alot compared to some of you guys but it is more than adequate for my frogs.I even the small amounts of supplementation by feeding field sweepings, termites.These food items are naturally gutloaded.As far as spasms go I have seen wild frogs do the same thing.
cya


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "As far as spasms go I have seen wild frogs do the same thing. "

So why is there an assumption that wild frogs cannot be calcium deficient and the implication that the same symptoms in captive populations are acceptable as calcium deficiencies can result in the death of the frog? (although there are other reasons it can occur (see below)). 

snip" I Dust the FF's three times a week. I dont want to dust them any more since too much of one thing might not be good for them, so i doubt its calcium"

Frequency of dusting does not mean that there is not a disruption of calcium metabolism as proper calcium metabolism depends on sufficient D3, a proper A to D3 to E ratio, a proper calcium to phosphorus ratio, and sufficient fat in the diet to absorb the D3.

Also seizures do not have to be the result of a disruption of calcium metabolism although this is a classic symptom of calcium deficiency, it can also result of insufficient vitamin A, and excessive temperatures. Regardless of the source of the seizures, seizures are a symptom of significant concern that needs to be identified and resolved as they can be indicative of problems that can cause the death of the frog. 

Ed


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*frogs spasm*

I didnt assume that at all I beleive 100% percent that a wild frog could be calcium deficient.But for some odd reason they are still around no one was giving them repcal or any supp.Also natural selection plays a big part of it to,A frog that is healthy and robust can come from a clutch of duds it has happened to me so I can relate.I did not say that these symptoms are acceptable in captive collections I simply stated an observation.
later


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "But for some odd reason they are still around no one was giving them repcal or any supp." endsnip

Yes, no one was giving them supplements but then frogs in the wild are not typically being fed a restricted diet and are exposed to unfiltered sunlight which allows then to synthesize the required levels of D3 allowing an uninterrupted Ca metabolism. 
Your implication with the statement about wild frogs and seizures is that this is a normal condition. Okay, what was the long term prognosis of the frog(s) that you saw have these symptoms in the wild? Were they alive 3 days later, 2 weeks later, 2 months later? Were you seeing a frog (or frogs) that was in the last stages of chytrid, bacterial or viral infection? (Seizures are typical of wild frogs with chytrid and chytrid has been documented in the USA as well as Europe). Anecdotal observations like this of behaviors of frogs in the wild needs to be kept in context that it may not be normal or that it is indicative of other problems not with the implication that it is normal. 

snip "Also natural selection plays a big part of it to,A frog that is healthy and robust can come from a clutch of duds it has happened to me so I can relate."

And this has to do what with the seizures? 

snip "I did not say that these symptoms are acceptable in captive collections I simply stated an observation" endsnip

You made the statement with the implication that this is a normal condtion of frogs in the wild with the implication that this is not a problem. Also see my comments above. 

Ed


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

Thiamine deficiency may also be the problem. According the "Great Big Green Book", (Amphibian Medicine & Captive Husbandry, Wright & Whitaker) this symptom is more likely from Thiamine, but calcium is a strong possibility also. 

Also, why do you conclude that dusting with calcium 3 times a month is adequate for YOUR frogs? Is there some force at work in your area that makes your frogs better at absorbing calcium? Don't assume that what your doing is enough. Problems like this can take a long time to show up.


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## RSines (Feb 15, 2004)

I had a similar issue when I was starting out with D. auratus which were purchased from a large distributor. I really had to bump up the dusting and change products to stablize the frogs. They recovered.

I suggest up the dusting to every feeding and monitor them closely. 

Richard


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Thiamine deficiency may also be the problem."

Typically thiamine deficiency is linked to the feeding of frozen thawed fish but I will check tonight (in the big green book) to see if it is linked to anyother dietary issues (I know that it can appear in some herbivores depending on the plants they have been eating but outside of those two cases I can't remember anyother major risk factors). 


snip "I suggest up the dusting to every feeding and monitor them closely" 
This is probably a little excessive and every other feeding should be more than sufficient. 


Ed


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## RSines (Feb 15, 2004)

I guess it depends of if feedings are daily ... :lol:

I'm kidding. Great advice btw. 

-Richard


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*Seizure*

Well first off I dont really see the reason you are being aggressive about this.I guess you have two many ten dollar words in your arsenal and need to release your frustration.Well I will be your your punching bag because I have delt with people like you for a long time in this hobby and others.My frogs if you actually read what I wrote are not fed a restricted diet.No I did not imply that seizures in wild frogs is normal nor did I say that it is normal in captive collections.If you look back and read it all I said was that I have seen it in wild frogs plain and simple you took it to the next level so in the future maybe you should actually read what people write instead of jumping on your high horse and riding to the rescue(snip).Also this thread was originally about someone with a legitimate worry I dont think he was expecting all this B.S I am sorry froglet anyway have a good night and I know you will have something to say as will I.
cya Also rompida read what i said they get field sweepings that in return eat what they want in the wild no commercial foods so they actually pick the best food and are loaded with calcium vit and minerals.No my frogs arent special and can absorb calcium better than yours that is a stupid thing to say.It just evens up the playing field. I use differant methods with similar results end of story.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Well first off I dont really see the reason you are being aggressive about this." endsnip

Despite your opinion, I'm not. 

snip "My frogs if you actually read what I wrote are not fed a restricted diet." endsnip 

Did I say that the lack of variety in the diet was about your frogs? My statement (is this a ten-dollar word?) was talking about the captive frogs as a whole group and the one's specifically asked about at the start of this thread (and you accuse me of not reading posts). Remember I keep pointing out context.
So you (now I'm talking about your frogs) collect each and every arthropod fed to your frogs and do not use ffs, crickets, flour beetles, springtails or other cultured insects as a food source? You have identified and determined that the frogs receive 20 or more families of insects on a daily basis adlib as this is the variety of insects typically available to to be consumed by wild dendrobatids? 


snip" No I did not imply that seizures in wild frogs is normal nor did I say 
that it is normal in captive collections." If you look back and read it all I 
said was that I have seen it in wild frogs plain and simple you took it to the next level so in the future maybe you should actually read what "endsnip

So why did you decide to include the statement about seizures in wild frogs in 
the first place? You left the statement to be read in context (yes context 
again) as you failed to make any distinction; which is why I pointed it out. 
Whether you want to admit it or not, you left interpretation that this is okay. 
You still have not answered my question as to why you included the comment about "A frog that is healthy and robust can come from a clutch of duds it has happened "

snip "Also this thread was originally about someone with a legitimate worry." endsnip

Yes to which you promptly provided problomatic information. 

snip "Also rompida read what i said they get field sweepings that in return eat what they want in the wild no commercial foods so they actually pick the best food and are loaded with calcium vit and minerals." endsnip

Are you saying that the field sweepings pick the best foods to eat so they are loaded with calcium, vitamins and minerals?? 
Well, I hate to tell you this but this is not supported by analysis of wild 
insects in general. 
The only insects with a positive calcium to phosphorus ratio are soil 
dwelling arthropods found in areas where the soil contains sufficient calcium levels so that the soil attached to their exoskeletons and to some extent in their gut and/or chitin modifies thier calcium to phosphorus ratio. Another major source of calcium for wild frogs is the soil that is accidentally swallowed when the frog is capturing the food item. This does not occur in the terraria as calcium deficient soils are used (peat, compressed ground coconut). This also means that field sweepings are deficient in calcium. 

Even though the insects are feeding on the material in the wild, this does not automatically mean a better more balanced feeder insect for the frogs as the needs of the frogs are very different than those of the insects. For example insects are poor sources of vitamin A and only slightly better at supplying carotenoids which can be better converted to vitamin A. 

Ed


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*seizures*

Ok here we go. I said that I have seen it in the wild because I have just because a frog becomes imobile does not mean it is calcium deficient.In the wild the frogs I have seen do this were leopard frogs If they became startled and had no means of escape they would play possum.I have also seen this in some of my frogs.as well as common toads etc.That is why I said that because if a frog in my experiance was calcium defit, it does not recover so fast as he stated.Is this enough for you or should we continue on that subject we have very differant oppinions on that matter.

to address your other statements.You stated that field plankton is devoid of calcium you are wrong.Are you telling me that propagated food is the only food with acceptable levels of calcium no way buddy you are wrong.
Field plankton I have collected consisted of small leafhoppers baby spiders,aphids,ants,grasshopper nymph's, baby centipedes,moths,etc.
this is just what I saw in the net.All of these have no calcium.Come on
You are hung on calcium that is my point they do not need as much calcium.To( MUCH) calcium will actually slow growth and the animals will become lethargic.It also prohibits the body from absorbing certain vitamins and minerals. Calcium will not be absorbed into the body as fast if the diet is heavy with undigestible material Such as chitin etc.

(A healthy frog can come from a clutch of duds)
Even with everything we know which in your case seems to be everything , best foods,lighting, dont guarantee a darn thing.That was my reason.


I have been breeding frogs, geckos, chameleons, tropical fish and others as a hobby for most of my life.I have met alot of people who I dont agree with at all but have good success with their animals which most likely you would be one of them but the fact is your passion is there and I really do respect that even I think your full of beans.
later


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Ok here we go. I said that I have seen it in the wild because I have just because a frog becomes imobile does not mean it is calcium deficient.In the wild the frogs I have seen do this were leopard frogs If they became startled and had no means of escape they would play possum." endsnip

This is known as tonic immobility and is not the same as what the person described in the first post. If the frogs are showing the extended rigid body position commonly associated with other problems then you are not seeing tonic immobility. Chytrid is known to have caused severe mortality of frogs in the Rana pipiens complex. 

snip "I have also seen this in some of my frogs.as well as common toads etc.That is why I said that because if a frog in my experiance was calcium defit, it does not recover so fast as he stated.Is this enough for you or should we continue on that subject we have very differant oppinions on that matter. "

The rate of recovery from a seizure caused by calcium deficiency depends on several factors such as (but mainly) the actual level of the calcium deficit. If the deficit is very minor then recovery is faster as there is more calcium available to adjust the ion flow into the cells. It also depends on the severity of the activity that occured before the onset of the seizure. 

snip "to address your other statements.You stated that field plankton is devoid of calcium you are wrong.Are you telling me that propagated food is the only food with acceptable levels of calcium no way buddy you are wrong."

No I did not say that. I suggest you reread my post. 

snip "Field plankton I have collected consisted of small leafhoppers baby spiders,aphids,ants,grasshopper nymph's, baby centipedes,moths,etc. 
this is just what I saw in the net.All of these have no calcium." endsnip

I also did not say that they have no calcium. Did you read my post? 
As for my evidence, please refer to Donoghue, Susan; Langenberg, Julie, 1996; Nutrition; In Reptile Medicine and Surgery; ed Mader, D.; W.B. Saunders Co.; Philladelphia as a good start. 
Also you did not indicate the frequency at which you feed meadow plankton or what percentage of the diet is meadow plankton to support your assertion of a nonrestricted diet (As you only list 7 of the at least 21 documented consumed by the frogs in the literature you are feeding 30% of the variety offered in the wild diet, this is still a restricted diet). 


Snip "Come on You are hung on calcium that is my point they do not need as much calcium." endsnip

Where have we defined the level of calcium required in the diet? So what is the absolute minimal amount of calcium required by anurans for good growth? Can you supply a reference or citation? 
The literature recommends that this be between 0.5% and 1.5% of the total diet as dry matter (see Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry). But you have to also make sure that the ratio of calcium to phosphorus is correct because if this ratio deviates from 1:1 to 2:1 the actual amount of calcium in the diet will not matter as it will not be available for use. (A calcium to phosphorus ratio that is less than 1:1 causes the type of "MBD" that is more correctly referred to as nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism. ) The ability to uptake and use calcium also depends on sufficient vitamin D3. 

snip "It also prohibits the body from absorbing certain vitamins and minerals."

Disruption of the absorbtion of some minerals is supported by the literature when fed to excess (more than 6 times the recommended upper amounts of Ca as part of the diet when read as dry matter) but not vitamins unless it has been fed in greater excess in conjunction with a high fat diet causing the formation of calcium soaps in the digestive tract. Do you have a reference for this? 

snip "Calcium will not be absorbed into the body as fast if the diet is heavy with undigestible material Such as chitin etc. "

Chitin has a variable digestibility in insectivores ranging from 2 to 85% so to label it indigestiable is not correct until the level of digestiability in the frogs is known. In any case the undigested portion of the chitin serves the same purpose as fiber in supporting gut motility. 

snip "(A healthy frog can come from a clutch of duds) 
Even with everything we know which in your case seems to be everything , best foods,lighting, dont guarantee a darn thing.That was my reason. "

This was not explained and as a consequence meant the same thing as if you had said, I just had a piece of toast with butter. 


snip "I have been breeding frogs, geckos, chameleons, tropical fish and others as a hobby for most of my life.I have met alot of people who I dont agree with at all but have good success with their animals which most likely you would be one of them but the fact is your passion is there and I really do respect that even I think your full of beans"

I do not pretend to know everything and never have but I do know alot about some things such as herp nutrition and I have been keeping up as much as possible on the new advancements and understandings. As for other credentials, I have been working with herps for over 30 years now and have kept and bred a wide variety of species (not including birds, mammals, fish and invertebrates). In addition I have for the last 13 years worked as a Keeper at a Zoo with a collection of herps that has had on average of between 800 and 1000 animals. I have written and published a number of articles over the last ten years in a number of magazines and have given talks at IAD including one on what is and isn't known about amphibian nutrition....

Ed


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*ON and on*

I could easily tell you have a zoo background most zookeepers have a certain arragance about them which you do.I did reread the post and you stated that the only insects with a positive calcium to phosphorus ratio are soil dwelling arthropods found in areas where the soil contains sufficient calcium levels. By saying that, Field sweepings by your statement arent soil dwelling arthropods and by your statement are devoid of calcium.Or am I jumping to conclusions.

I dont think anyone has done ( conclusive) study's on field sweepings and there nutritional value.Many people have done research but nothing concrete.

You keep refering to literature dont you have any personal experiance's with these problems or just refer to text books for help.
cya


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip ".I did reread the post and you stated that the only insects with a positive calcium to phosphorus ratio are soil dwelling arthropods found in areas where the soil contains sufficient calcium levels. By saying that, Field sweepings by your statement arent soil dwelling arthropods and by your statement are devoid of calcium." endsnip 

You obviously still fail to understand. To explain it further as you seem to have missed all of the publications on calcium metabolism in herps for at least the last 10 years, there can be significant levels of calcium in the diet but if the levels of calcium to phosphorus are below 1:1 (as occurs in non-soil dwelling arthropods(see below)), then the calcium is not available for the animal to use rendering the diet deficient in calcium. (not devoid which by definition means that it is totally lacking which was what you also said in an earlier post). So in in other words, you can feed the frog its weight in calcium but as long as the ratio is less than 1:1 calcium to phosphorus, there is insufficient calcium in the diet. 

snip "Or am I jumping to conclusions. " endsnip 

Yes. 

snip "I dont think anyone has done ( conclusive) study's on field sweepings and there nutritional value.Many people have done research but nothing concrete. " endsnip

On what do you base this statement? Do you have any proof? 
For example (to support my point) an analysis of Homoptera (leafhopper family, a usual insect found in sweepings)) for calcium can be found in 'Studier, E.H.; Sevick, S.H.; 1992, Live Mass, water content, nitrogen, and mineral levels in some insects from South Central Michigan, Comp. Biochem Physiology 103A:579

snip" You keep refering to literature dont you have any personal experiance's with these problems or just refer to text books for help. "endsnip

I refer to the citations to indicate that I have done my homework in attempting to provide the best care for the animals and am not simply pulling uneducated opinions and beliefs out of the air. 


Ed


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I think my post has become more of an opinionated war zone then a discussion. As everyone is making good points, i think that i will shine some light on the problem. 

I picked up the same female that went into defense mode and she did it again. Came to the cunclusion that it is a defense and nothing else. I am not saying that she might not be vitamin deficient but i sure do give them plenty of vitamins and calcium. I myself have anemia but eat more meat then a lion and take iron pills, so who is to say that this frog is just one of the ones that will have deficiency no matter how well taken care off.

=) ok guys be nice hehe


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

I was waiting for education issue to pop up no I have no degree's.I am a contractor so I actually work for a living.I havent missed all publications on calcium metab in herps everytime you write something it is like I am rereading them(snip).

So by saying that I have no college education I must have no valid points .Like I said people like you are the reason newbies get out of the hobby.To much B.S to much jargan.

I dont think anyone has done(conclusive)study's on field sweepings.
I base this on I have never read any conclusive evidence to support all the crap you have said.You gave one example on one insect out of many.And it is not conclusive.
later


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Rainfrog,

Snip "picked up the same female that went into defense mode and she did it again. Came to the cunclusion that it is a defense and nothing else. I am not saying that she might not be vitamin deficient but i sure do give them plenty of vitamins and calcium. "

If the frog went into a rigor with the hind limbs stretched out directly behind the frog, then this is probably not tonic immobility in a captive animal. Tonic immobility takes many forms in anurans (see Biology of Amphibians by Duellman and Trueb for a good summary) but a stress induced rigor with the hind legs extended directly behind the frog is a very classic sign for calcium insufficiency or deficiency and is well documented. 
As a side point, I have not seen (in this species or any of the other dart frogs I have been around) nor have I been able to document this form of tonic immobility in pumilio but then I do not know everything. 

Some points to consider even with well supplemented frogs, 
1) if calcium deficient, then stimulus will recause the siezure to happen, the threshold of causing the seizure will depend on the amount of stress, in other words the more severe the deficiency, the less stress required to trigger the seizure so it can be variable when it occurs. 
2) amount of supplementation may not be an indicator of a properly supplemented animal as 
a) supplements should be replaced every six months as the fat-soluable vitamins catalyze thier own oxidation changing the ratios in the supplement. This may need to occur more frequently than six months if the supplement is kept in a warm moist place. 
b) complete supplements are often not listed with a manufactured date only an expiration date that does not indicate how long the supplement was on the shelf or sat before packaging. Ideally a born on date would be on the package but this is not common in the industry. 
c) depending on how soon after the dusted insects are introduced into the enclosure the frog begins to feed on the insects can affect the supplementation as most of the supplement is groomed off within several hours. 
d) soaking in pedialyte as a treatment for calcium insufficiency and a recurrance does not eliminate calcium insufficiency as pedialyte appears to be lacking in calcium (see http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 3013#73013)
e) if using a human multivitamin then this needs to be checked for use of D2 as opposed to D3 as D2 does not allow for proper calcium metabolism in herps. 
3) hypocalcemia is probably the most common cause of seizures in the frogs but there are other possible causes such as lack of vitamin A.

Some points to ponder. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I was waiting for education issue to pop up no I have no degree's." endsnip

So how does the lack of a degree prevent anyone from using a library or a reprint source to gain the correct information? I know that I have paid $25 for a three-page article to get the information contained in it when the local libraries could not get it for me via a interlibrary loan. I have contacted the local universities when neccessary and gotten a visitor pass to the library to conduct research. 

Where have I indicated my level of education? You have made assumptions that have no bearing on the discussion on hand and do not excuse the arguments you have presented. 

snip "I am a contractor so I actually work for a living." endsnip

Are you implying that I do not work for my living? 


snip "I havent missed all publications on calcium metab in herps everytime you write something it is like I am rereading them(snip). endsnip

Then why did you fail to understand the problems with the calcium to phosphorus issues in insects. This has been well represented in the literature since before 1996.

snip "So by saying that I have no college education I must have no valid points" endsnip

I did not say that, you just did. I simply stated that you have apparently failed to understand the information available to the public. See above for more comments. 

snip " I dont think anyone has done(conclusive)study's on field sweepings. I base this on I have never read any conclusive evidence to support all the crap you have said."

So the fact that you have not seen it means that it does not exist? So you have performed various literature searchs and have not found any publications that contain mineral analysis of the insects commonly found in field sweepings? 

snip "You gave one example on one insect out of many.And it is not conclusive "

Last comment first, if you have not reviewed the data how can you determine if it is not conclusive? and by the way that reference covered over 16 orders of insects not just one..... 

Ed


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2005)

trow said:


> I was waiting for education issue to pop up no I have no degree's.I am a contractor so I actually work for a living.I havent missed all publications on calcium metab in herps everytime you write something it is like I am rereading them(snip).
> 
> So by saying that I have no college education I must have no valid points .Like I said people like you are the reason newbies get out of the hobby.To much B.S to much jargan.



I've been reading this for some time now as the information that's being stated is interesting and new to me. I do think you are getting out of line though. Ed is a great biologist and is being thorough in his citing of sources and information. I very much appreciate that so I can go back and read these papers as well. I guess my BS (the degree, though I can also use it to BS as well) is useless as I didn't know these things-- these are things he reads outside 'class' and spends a good amount of time doing so. As for you "actually working for a living" I have a college degree and am working right now doing landscaping and some contracting work with a friend until I return to South America. I resent that statement as I do both fields right now and don't consider them mutually exclusive. I don't want to pick a fight with you, and Ed knows I am not with him either. You are making things personal, which is blocking me from learning things, and that has annoyed me to the point of posting on it. I hope this dialogue can continue on the subject (at this point so be it if it's slightly off topic, it can be split by a moderator and started as a new topic), but please keep it superficial, taking things personal are helping no one.
j


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ok Ed so i have to ask. I feed my guys Reptical and Reptolife 3 times a week....Their diet consists of FF's, Springtails,termites and once in a while ants. *What other powders with vitamins A etc should i be using ?? *I do not want to overdust since i do not believe too much is good for them neither...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I do not have any analysis of Reptolife so I can't comment on its balance but you need to check the label and see what the ratios of A to D3 to E and calcium to phosphorus are. However this necessarily does not mean anything as there can be significant variations between batches of supplements (upon independent analysis at least one supplement did not contain some of the listed ingredients).

**author's note: I made a mistake in the following paragraph which I will clear up below***

As for Reptical, the ratio of vitamin A to D3 is 257 to 38 or a ratio of 6 to 1 (at least the last reference I have for an analysis) which is significantly higher that the 100 to 1 ratio of A to D3 suggested in the literature. At these levels, vitamin A can outcompete D3 for uptake which can hypovitaminosis of D3 and thus calcium. 

When choosing supplements the supplements need the ratios of vitamins listed above as well as a ratio between 1:1 and 2:1 of calcium to phosphorus. (There is some consensus that a ratio of 1.5:1 is pretty good). (I personally use Rep-Cal mixed with Herptivite so I can control the levels). At work we use a supplement based on the ones provided by Walkabout Farms. (and we used Walkabout Farms when they were manufacturing).
If the supplement does not list the amount of each of the ingredient(s) in the supplement I would suggest not using it. 

Frequency of supplementation, there is a lot to consider here but at this time the general recommendation is not to supplement with a vitamin/mineral supplement more often than every other feeding if feeding daily and to supplement at least twice a week if feeding two or three times a week.
As data comes out, new supplements hit the market or old ones are adjusted (meaning that each new container should be checked to see that the levels have not changed), this recommendation on frequency can change. 
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that supplementing less frequently than this allows the frogs to not have any visible problems but this then may carry over into the tadpoles as a study (I can't remember if they actual published it off hand) by the Baltimore Zoo demonstrated that sls was totally dependent on the supplements fed the adults (there has since been some documentation of other issues with sls). 
There is some consensus that alternating the vitamin/mineral feedings with dusting the insects with straight calcium carbonate does not hurt and may supply extra needed calcium. We do this at work, but unless the animal is rapidly growing I do not do this at home. 

Does this help?

Ed[/b]


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*BS*

I am sorry if I offended you with that coment it was out of line, Justin.

Ed, As I stated above I am sorry about the rude coment,but wether you are a great bioligist or not it doesnt matter to me. I have a simple understanding about the issue we are discussing.And over the years has proven very successful for me.

I am not excusing any arguments.My main gripe is that you stated field sweepings were an inadequate source of calcium.I have a large breeding group of mantellas that disagree with you cauz that is all they get. I have had them this way for 4 years,but does that mean my findings are useless I hope not.But on the same token I have had some mantellas have serious issues with under supplementation.

I agree with justin that you are an informative individual but I have read many articles on these issues Calcium defit and others.Reptiles mag,Vivarium.and fauna I have every single issue of them all.And I still read alot of them to this day.

I am a simple man with simple solutions.
later


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Snip "As for Reptical, the ratio of vitamin A to D3 is 257 to 38 or a ratio of 6 to 1 (at least the last reference I have for an analysis) which is significantly higher that the 100 to 1 ratio of A to D3 suggested in the literature. At these levels, vitamin A can outcompete D3 for uptake which can hypovitaminosis of D3 and thus calcium."

As I just noted above, when I wrote this I made a mistake and what really needed to be said here was that the ratio of vitamin A to D3 was too low. The ratio needs to be around 100 to 1 and instead it is 6 to 1. In this case, there is a risk of hypervitaminosis of D3 and hypovitaminosis of A (as D3 is competing with A for uptake). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Ed,
"As I stated above I am sorry about the rude coment," endsnip 

Thanks for the apology. I also apologize for getting "snippy"

snip "but wether you are a great bioligist or not it doesnt matter to me." endsnip 

Nor me. 


Snip "And over the years has proven very successful for me." endsnip 

see below 

snip "My main gripe is that you stated field sweepings were an inadequate source of calcium.I have a large breeding group of mantellas that disagree with you cauz that is all they get."

But this does not mean that field sweepings are a suitable source of calcium for dendrobates as there are other possible factors involved. (For several alternate possibilities) Until proven one way or another it is possible that some mantellas are more efficient at scavenging calcium from thier diet or the enviroment than dendrobates. Using a different amphibian as an example, "MBD" in aquatic newts and salamanders is pretty much unknown unless they have been fed a diet very high in vitamin A as they can also absorb calcium from the water in the tank. 
To use a reptile analogy (and showing my age here), before the early 1990s, healthy adult iguanas were an expensive pet as most of the juveniles brought into the pet trade died due to improper care and one of the forms of "MBD" was very prevelent in these animals resulting in deformities in those animals that were treated and survived. However there were the rare cases of animals that did and grew well regardless of the quality of the care provided by the owners yet when the owners tried the same care with another iguana it did not work out indicating that there was something that was unaccounted for enabling the iguana to thrive. 
There are other possibilities that can also be points of possible explinations but they are all pure speculation at this point. 
Also see below for more comments. 

snip "I have had them this way for 4 years,but does that mean my findings are useless" endsnip 

No it does not but it also does not necessarily mean that it has wider applications. Situations like this should be considered the exceptions to the rule and not the standard as they often cannot be replicated (and if they do, then they should be documented as this can lead to husbandry breakthroughs). I have had my own experiences with this phenomena and tend to keep them in anecdotal context unless I (or someone else) can replicate and document it. 

snip " I hope not.But on the same token I have had some mantellas have serious issues with under supplementation." endsnip

On the same foods? I am guessing that they are in a seperate enclosure then the group that is breeding. Is this a correct guess? 

snip "I am a simple man with simple solutions." endsnip 

Solutions may be simple but the reasoning and explinations for the solutions are often very complex..... 


Ed


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*Ed*

I agree with you Wow I didnt think that would happen LOL.But seriously I do beleive that mantellas for some odd reason are capable of getting adequate nutrition on a minimal diet.Case in point the colony of 10 Golden mantella's have had similar breeding results as my others that I do suppliment.Even weirder is that the mantellas that had supplemental issues are not the group that I feed sweepings to.So obvisouly something is off I am not sure.
(I used to keep my findings to myself until I joined this board)
I also had a large group of mantella bernhardi that was exploding on a diet that consisted soley on termites although the feedings werent as frequent.Obesisity wasnt an issue because of infrequent feedings unfortunatly hurricane charlie ruined my colony and many others.I have years of info like this all the back to 91 when i got my first reticulatus pair for 60.00 dam I miss those days.I caught the mantella bug soon after and havent looked back I have been breeding them since.

Later


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