# Opinions on Leucomelas please?



## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

I received my Exo Terra 24x18x24 today (yay!) and will be starting my viv build very soon. Upon seeing it.. it is a bit bigger than I had initially expected. My original idea was to go with a pair of cobalt tincs, but now I think leucs would be a better option. I am looking for a type of frog that will utilize the entire viv well. From reading up on them, it seems like not only would leucs use all space available, but they do well in groups also! It doesn't hurt that they are recommended for beginners as well, because I definitely fit that title.

So on to my questions.. 

I plan on creating ledges while keeping my background as thin as possible to create more (space). I will have it nicely planted and start with froglets to help with possible aggression issues.

I was hoping to have possibly 4-5 in the viv. I do not want them to become stressed so I was hoping that I could get opinions on the amount. How many could be happy and healthy in this environment? 4-5 is the max that I would be willing to go personally... but if that is too many I am more than happy to cut back. Their health would be more important than my preference.

Aside from that, I have also read in a few places over the past couple of months that they do enjoy a water feature. I have a plan to put in a (simple) water feature consisting of a light stream over some pebbles that runs into a shallow pond (built up from the false bottom). Have any of you ever experienced your leucs 'enjoying' any type of water feature?

And on a third note, breeding. My original plan (as stated before) was to have tincs. I completely understand the breeding requirements for them. I however have come across contradicting requirements for leucs. Having froglets I wouldn't worry about them breeding anytime soon.. but would want the viv built in a way that will be ready for them when they are. 

Any help or opinions would be great. This is my first viv build and I've researched for months.. but research is hard to do when so many things are contradictory.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Sounds like you've got some great plans!

Yes, Leucs use up all the areas in the tank that they can get to.

If you set it up right (which it sounds like you are) 4-5 leucs in a 45 gal tank shouldn't be an issue.

That's all I can accurately comment on


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

jdooley195 said:


> Sounds like you've got some great plans!
> 
> Yes, Leucs use up all the areas in the tank that they can get to.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. I'm very relieved to hear that I'm moving in the right direction. Picking out your first frogs can be a difficult task. I'm positive that this won't be my only viv setup though


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Moriko,

Not a plug, but Josh's Frogs - Largest online herps feeders and reptile supplies store has some good "introductions" to various dart species for beginners (leucomelas, auratus, tinctorius, P. terribilis, etc.) They seemed informative and sensible to me. Lots of good things about leucomelas, and the "standard" leucs do seem quite appropriate for your set up.

Good luck!


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks Groundhog. To be honest I have been all over that website lol. I've found most of my info from there and think that may be where I actually get the froglets from. I've read great reviews on their healthy frogs. In my area there really aren't many who have dart frogs and the reptile expo here doesn't offer much selection either. As much as I hate having to order them online, seems like the only option.

The morph I was thinking of was the British Guyana/Banded. I love the coloration.. and although I've read that they are more difficult to breed, that isn't my main purpose for having them.

Is there something about them that would make them less ideal for my setup than the standard?


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Moriko said:


> Thanks Groundhog. To be honest I have been all over that website lol. I've found most of my info from there and think that may be where I actually get the froglets from. I've read great reviews on their healthy frogs. In my area there really aren't many who have dart frogs and the reptile expo here doesn't offer much selection either. As much as I hate having to order them online, seems like the only option.
> 
> The morph I was thinking of was the British Guyana/Banded. I love the coloration.. and although I've read that they are more difficult to breed, that isn't my main purpose for having them.
> 
> Is there something about them that would make them less ideal for my setup than the standard?


Please consult the PDF experts on this one; my expertise is hylids and rhacophorids (My set ups are too warm for most PDFs). From everything I have read, the "standard" leucomelas are less shy. Waiting on a leuc expert to confirm/disconfirm this...

(For what it is worth, if a heavy object fell on my head and changed my life, I think I'd start with standard leucs...)


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

> (For what it is worth, if a heavy object fell on my head and changed my life, I think I'd start with standard leucs...)


Duly noted. I appreciate your opinion.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> Thanks Groundhog. To be honest I have been all over that website lol. I've found most of my info from there and think that may be where I actually get the froglets from. I've read great reviews on their healthy frogs. In my area there really aren't many who have dart frogs and the reptile expo here doesn't offer much selection either. As much as I hate having to order them online, seems like the only option.
> 
> The morph I was thinking of was the British Guyana/Banded. I love the coloration.. and although I've read that they are more difficult to breed, that isn't my main purpose for having them.
> 
> Is there something about them that would make them less ideal for my setup than the standard?


They may typically be slightly harder to get breeding, but basically if you put them in a good viv you've got a pretty decent shot at it. There doesn't seem to have been much trouble getting them fairly well established in the hobby after a few imports came in, and they aren't to hard to find now. You just never know how it will go...you may get a pair of anything, even something rare and supposedly hard to breed that pumps out babies...then have a pair of the most common thing that is supposed to breed like rabbits and it doesn't do crap for you for years...if ever.

Before an Ice storm wiped out my collection a few years back I as begining to drown in green leg lamasi's...was to the point where I had to seperate them because I was getting to many and they weren't in high demand so unloading them was more of a chore then it was worth to me at the time...ice storm solved that problem sadly. 

Most of the luecs even the banded are fairly common. Everyone wants to breed their frogs when they get into this hobby but if have much success with the more common species/morphs you'll soon find yourself with a lot of tads/froglets to care for and possibly hard to get rid of. What you might do is have a pond in the viv and just let nature take its course. Try to keep the tank stocked with springtails, and isopods... and if they breed great, pull em when you find them and sell/trade/give them away (to me) and call it good 

Luecs are fun...I'm not a big fan of yelllow/orange frogs but even I liked my luecs.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> They may typically be slightly harder to get breeding, but basically if you put them in a good viv you've got a pretty decent shot at it. There doesn't seem to have been much trouble getting them fairly well established in the hobby after a few imports came in, and they aren't to hard to find now. You just never know how it will go...you may get a pair of anything, even something rare and supposedly hard to breed that pumps out babies...then have a pair of the most common thing that is supposed to breed like rabbits and it doesn't do crap for you for years...if ever.
> 
> Before an Ice storm wiped out my collection a few years back I as begining to drown in green leg lamasi's...was to the point where I had to seperate them because I was getting to many and they weren't in high demand so unloading them was more of a chore then it was worth to me at the time...ice storm solved that problem sadly.
> 
> ...


So might I ask.. by nature taking its course, do you mean pulling froglets, tadpoles, or eggs? From my understanding, leucomelas have carnivorous tadpoles. Do you mean to cut the amount of over breeding by allowing the parents to care for the eggs and tads and then have only the strongest of the tadpoles morph to froglets? If that were the case.. what amount of water would be needed in the pond area to be able to handle something like this? I want to keep it rather shallow so it poses no danger to the frogs.. but I really don't know much about the amount needed in this situation.

I will have a grow out tank to house the froglets in if they do happen to breed at some point. Like I stated before, breeding isn't the top reason for me having them. If it were to happen and I could trade for supplies or to fund another viv build over time, that would be great. Mainly I want them to enjoy and to help teach my children about ecosystems at times. Even if they don't breed.. I'm perfectly fine with that.

I'm very sorry to hear about the ice storm! I've been concerned about something like that happening as well. Haven't figured out how to handle that situation yet however.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

That's exactly what he means ... you got it.

As far as a pond being too deep, that's not an issue.
While not aquatic, darts can swim when necessary and don't drown unless there are preexisting conditions with the frogs healthwise. I've seen my imitators dive into a film can out of fright and stay under for minutes and they always emerge eventually. 
An inch or 2 deep should be sufficient for tad deposition. My Leucs even deposit in petri dishes.

Yes their tadpoles can be canniballistic. I've experienced it first hand.

Sent from my Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk 2


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

Take my opinions with a grain of salt. I have no experience in keeping Leucs. But I do keep Azureus, varadero, and pums. I had a 180 gallon setup with a 1.5 foot water area and 2 nice waterfalls. It was such a pain to maintain the water I was happy to GIVE that setup away. I have a small 4x4 inch area in our azureus setup that is strictly for siphoning water. They still manage to deposit a tad or 2 when im not aware of a clutch. I try to maximize our floor space no matter what size viv we have and add a pvc pipe inside the eggcrate that is hidden with a fake rock. This is for siphoning and the frogs cant get under the false bottom. I get tired of nasty/ugly water and would rather not have the hassle. Leucs should be just fine without a water feature. 

Also, we started out with a trio of 3 month old Azureus. Yes it was fun to watch them grow up together and luckily ended up with a 2.1 ratio. I will try to not get frogs anymore that are not proven pairs/trio's etc. Breeding may not be your priority, but what if all 4 are males or females when they're adults? You may be looking to trade some out and getting attached to what you raise is inevitable. It may cost more to buy a proven/probable trio or what have you of cobalts, leucs, azureus.. but in the end when you're attached you wont have to worry. they are not going to have to be traded off. And you'll be able to raise their little ones anyways so you'll still get the joy of seeing some grow up  just my 2 cents. didnt mean to write a novel. lol


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks for clarifying that Nick, as well as the info on the water depth. That was one of my major concerns with a water feature. 


Well, it seems as if all of my questions have been answered. From what I'm understanding. I appreciate everyone's help and can't wait to start posting pics of my build and final viv! 

If anyone else has any opinions on this I'd be happy to hear them, but I believe this is the route I'm going to take. I am happy to have joined this forum. Everyone is so helpful.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> So might I ask.. by nature taking its course, do you mean pulling froglets, tadpoles, or eggs? From my understanding, leucomelas have carnivorous tadpoles. Do you mean to cut the amount of over breeding by allowing the parents to care for the eggs and tads and then have only the strongest of the tadpoles morph to froglets? If that were the case.. what amount of water would be needed in the pond area to be able to handle something like this? I want to keep it rather shallow so it poses no danger to the frogs.. but I really don't know much about the amount needed in this situation.
> 
> I will have a grow out tank to house the froglets in if they do happen to breed at some point. Like I stated before, breeding isn't the top reason for me having them. If it were to happen and I could trade for supplies or to fund another viv build over time, that would be great. Mainly I want them to enjoy and to help teach my children about ecosystems at times. Even if they don't breed.. I'm perfectly fine with that.
> 
> I'm very sorry to hear about the ice storm! I've been concerned about something like that happening as well. Haven't figured out how to handle that situation yet however.


Essentially I mean just pulling froglets...of course you can pull eggs/tads if you wanna do that work and be more sure of rearing the greatest number of babies successfully. I've had froglets morph out of corner ponds in 10gal tanks. 

Basically if you didn't count the water in the false bottom, there would only be about a liter maybe 2 liters of water in the pond and those ponds are typically 2-4 inches deep. I tend to do corner ponds in most of my vivs just to allow for this possibility. The way I do my ponds is section off a corner with a piece of wood or rock, can even use eggcrate (hidden with cork pieces or something), i fill in behind my barrier/shoreline with black waterfall foam, maybe a little silicone and do my false bottom cut to fit behind that area and attached to the shoreline/barrier. 

It is important that your shore/barrier raise above the false bottom an inch or more to hold back the substrate from falling into the pond. Jam a knife or coat hanger through the foam underneath the barrier to make small holes. Basically the idea is that the false bottom water will flow into and fill up your pond, thus cutting way down on how fast the pond drains due to evaporation. You just don't want gaps so big that frogs or tads can get in underneath the false bottom. Just top it off water as needed...as the viv becomes established the water will stop getting stagnate, and tads don't mind anyways they are raised in muddy water in tire tracks in the rainforrest. 

I never do full water changes just top it off with fresh distilled water when it gets low. I don't do drains either because unless you over mist or don't have your misting system set up right they just aren't necessary. You can plumb in a bubbler or filter in a larger viv and plant some easy aquatic plants to help keep the water clean. I've kept a betta or a couple of other small fish in ponds like these long term. An inert substrate and/or stuff that doesn't have a lot of tannins in it will leave the water less stained. A leca ball and sphag moss combo would probably be a good substrate and leave your water pretty clear. I don't mind tea stained so much...but some don't like it.

I wouldn't worry about frog drownings either.... though it does happen in very rare cases its more an urban myth then any real threat. Most of the time what happens is a sick frog goes to soak to stay hydrated and then dies, or is to weak to get out and drowns...thus looking like a frog just fell in an drowned when really there were extenuating circumstances and almost always the frog would have died anyways. The one exception is very rarely one frog will hold another one down and drown it. I actually prefer steeper shorelines to prevent this because then they just both fall in and have to swim back...a gradual sloping shore makes it easier for one to sit there on top of another and drown it. The biggest worry really is just making sure the frog/tads can't get under the false bottom or trapped under something in the pond, especially when you are topping it off.
This pic kinda shows how I do my corner ponds/false bottoms...









Finished desert viv (never got around to installing dehumidifier and fans to make it truly desert)









A 20 H overfilled with water....but really that doesn't hurt anything, just leads to the water getting more tea stained and maybe some dead plants if they can't handle wet feet.









Hex done same way as the others...









There maybe some other helpful pics in my 2 flickr galleries in my sig at bottom of post.

It is likely that some tads will get cannibalized depending on the species or just won't make it....nature's a harsh mistress. But I think there is something to be said for a viv that can allow a frog to breed naturally and morph out a froglet in tank...not the most efficient way to produce large numbers but works good for the hobby/fun level. 

--------------------------
Ya the ice storm sucked, 7 days no power, no friends with power, vivs to big to move and trying to find frogs in the pitch black with a flashlight in heavily planted vivs while freezing to death...could only save a few frogs by putting them next to my parents fireplace for a week. Now I've got a plug in window unit AC ($100) and space heaters ($30-50) to back up my normal system, because I've had some heating and air issues, and next on the list when the collection gets a little bigger is a generator. I highly recommend having one if your collection gets large enough to warrant that type of investment especially if you live in an area prone to storms/ice/snow/extended brown/blackouts.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Nismo95 said:


> Take my opinions with a grain of salt. I have no experience in keeping Leucs. But I do keep Azureus, varadero, and pums. I had a 180 gallon setup with a 1.5 foot water area and 2 nice waterfalls. It was such a pain to maintain the water I was happy to GIVE that setup away. I have a small 4x4 inch area in our azureus setup that is strictly for siphoning water. They still manage to deposit a tad or 2 when im not aware of a clutch. I try to maximize our floor space no matter what size viv we have and add a pvc pipe inside the eggcrate that is hidden with a fake rock. This is for siphoning and the frogs cant get under the false bottom. I get tired of nasty/ugly water and would rather not have the hassle. Leucs should be just fine without a water feature.
> 
> Also, we started out with a trio of 3 month old Azureus. Yes it was fun to watch them grow up together and luckily ended up with a 2.1 ratio. I will try to not get frogs anymore that are not proven pairs/trio's etc. Breeding may not be your priority, but what if all 4 are males or females when they're adults? You may be looking to trade some out and getting attached to what you raise is inevitable. It may cost more to buy a proven/probable trio or what have you of cobalts, leucs, azureus.. but in the end when you're attached you wont have to worry. they are not going to have to be traded off. And you'll be able to raise their little ones anyways so you'll still get the joy of seeing some grow up  just my 2 cents. didnt mean to write a novel. lol



You do make a great point on the proven pair. That was my initial plan with tincs because of the aggression issues after they matured. I am worried that I could get all of one sex and without having anyone in my area to trade with that weighs on my mind. I still have a couple of months minimum to think that over. The cost isn't what bothers me. Breeding isn't a priority, but I would love to observe the rituals as well as the tadpole care in person. 

Your comment on the water feature.. I agree that one isn't needed. I've also read many 'horror stories' about water features and how people wish they had not done it. I in no way think that I am better, nor that I have better ideas by any means lol. My plan is a false bottom, simple underwater pump to bring it up through a tube (which I've fully researched in the case of a failed pump or clogged tubing) and just have it lightly flow down some pebbles into the false bottom corner of the tank. It would of course be built up to allow peace of mind in knowing that the frogs couldn't get under the false bottom.. most likely by using a fiberglass screen covered in some stones for easy removal if there were a problem. That would also allow me to remove the water if needed. The 'stream' will only cover a few inches and the 'pond' only a small area of the corner. I'm really hoping that I'm not going to end up with an issue here. I'm trying to keep it rather simple while circulating the water. I'm really not even sure that water circulation is helpful. That is probably something that I need to research as well.

No worries about your 'novel' because I seem to have written one as well lol. Thanks for your input


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> Essentially I mean just pulling froglets...of course you can pull eggs/tads if you wanna do that work and be more sure of rearing the greatest number of babies successfully. I've had froglets morph out of corner ponds in 10gal tanks.
> 
> Basically if you didn't count the water in the false bottom, there would only be about a liter maybe 2 liters of water in the pond and those ponds are typically 2-4 inches deep. I tend to do corner ponds in most of my vivs just to allow for this possibility. The way I do my ponds is section off a corner with a piece of wood or rock, can even use eggcrate (hidden with cork pieces or something), i fill in behind my barrier/shoreline with black waterfall foam, maybe a little silicone and do my false bottom cut to fit behind that area and attached to the shoreline/barrier.
> 
> ...


Very informative! I really appreciate the time you took to share that. I really like the tip on the holes through the foam. I had never thought about anything like that. I've been trying to decide between the LECA or eggcrate false bottom. That is an entirely different topic though. I've read so many replies from others with the same question. I'll read one page and think.. oh, LECA is the way to go. I'll go to the next topic and decide.. Oh, Eggcrate.. that makes sense! I'm fighting with myself over this one lol.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> You do make a great point on the proven pair. That was my initial plan with tincs because of the aggression issues after they matured. I am worried that I could get all of one sex and without having anyone in my area to trade with that weighs on my mind. I still have a couple of months minimum to think that over. The cost isn't what bothers me. Breeding isn't a priority, but I would love to observe the rituals as well as the tadpole care in person.
> 
> Your comment on the water feature.. I agree that one isn't needed. I've also read many 'horror stories' about water features and how people wish they had not done it. I in no way think that I am better, nor that I have better ideas by any means lol. My plan is a false bottom, simple underwater pump to bring it up through a tube (which I've fully researched in the case of a failed pump or clogged tubing) and just have it lightly flow down some pebbles into the false bottom corner of the tank. It would of course be built up to allow peace of mind in knowing that the frogs couldn't get under the false bottom.. most likely by using a fiberglass screen covered in some stones for easy removal if there were a problem. That would also allow me to remove the water if needed. The 'stream' will only cover a few inches and the 'pond' only a small area of the corner. I'm really hoping that I'm not going to end up with an issue here. I'm trying to keep it rather simple while circulating the water. I'm really not even sure that water circulation is helpful. That is probably something that I need to research as well.
> 
> No worries about your 'novel' because I seem to have written one as well lol. Thanks for your input


Water features can be a pain...that is why I started doing these corner ponds that use the false bottom water. Much easier to maintain given that all you need to is top it off occasionally...larger the tank/pond easier to maintain. Like I said it cuts down on how fast the water evaporates/you have to top off the pond. The thing is the water actually gets better the longer you leave it. The good bacteria colonize the area and start filtering the water, like the biological filtration in an aquarium filter. 

Add in java ferns, some small crypths, just easy aquatic plants and you'll eventually get a stable little pond that can even support a couple fish. A bubbler helps. One trick to avoid looking at stagnate water is put some salvia natens, frogbit, or duckweed (you'll never get duckweed out if you put it in though). Basically makes it look like a lily pad pond, and all their little roots hanging down do wonders for the water while the pads themselves hide the surface. Just take a handful of the plants out when there gets to be to many.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> Very informative! I really appreciate the time you took to share that. I really like the tip on the holes through the foam. I had never thought about anything like that. I've been trying to decide between the LECA or eggcrate false bottom. That is an entirely different topic though. I've read so many replies from others with the same question. I'll read one page and think.. oh, LECA is the way to go. I'll go to the next topic and decide.. Oh, Eggcrate.. that makes sense! I'm fighting with myself over this one lol.


Welcome! 

I prefer the true false bottom, especially if you are going to do a pond like I do mine. Doing that with a leca bottom means the leca takes up a lot of volume that could have been all water...thus kinda defeating the purpose of sharing the false bottom water with the pond to decrease the evaporation/top off rate. Still works...just means you have to top it off more often, also the viv will be heavier if you have to move it even when the water is drained out.

You can do leca though as the substrate itself....a lot of people plant right into the leca...and a mix of leca and good chiliean or new zealand sphag moss is a fine viv substrate for growing most any plants.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

So, in other words.. having a water feature (even a simple one) will do no harm other than possibly being a pain to work with, but it will also do nothing beneficial for the viv with the circulation? If the circulation has no benefit then I may just go with a simple corner pond and try to make it look amazing instead of spending my time trying to get my water to 'flow' in the right direction. I can always try for elaborate on another viv after getting the basics down on this one. 

I believe I will already have my work cut out for me with culturing, seeding iso/springs, plants, and setup in general. If it will be as well off without circulation then I will spend my time on the other more important things and possibly get this viv up and running a little quicker than anticipated.

Oh, and thank you for the plant names. I'm going to research those asap!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> So, in other words.. having a water feature (even a simple one) will do no harm other than possibly being a pain to work with, but it will also do nothing beneficial for the viv with the circulation? If the circulation has no benefit then I may just go with a simple corner pond and try to make it look amazing instead of spending my time trying to get my water to 'flow' in the right direction. I can always try for elaborate on another viv after getting the basics down on this one.
> 
> I believe I will already have my work cut out for me with culturing, seeding iso/springs, plants, and setup in general. If it will be as well off without circulation then I will spend my time on the other more important things and possibly get this viv up and running a little quicker than anticipated.
> 
> Oh, and thank you for the plant names. I'm going to research those asap!


pumps/filters are ok, especially for a really large water feature/paludarium style viv...but ya not worth the hassle IMO especially for new people. A filter is nice but if you aren't having fish there just isn't much point. Do a corner pond with some easy small aquatic plants, and if it gets stagnate and you don't like the look then throw some salvia natens or frogbit in there and let it cover up the eye sore and help your water quality. Blackjungle.com has salvia natens right now I think. It might be worth plumbing in an air pump...very easy just run that thin clear tubing through the substrate or false bottom into the pond, cover the part in the pond with sand or gravel or whatever you use as your pond bottom substrate and just stick the air pump on the end hanging out of the viv and plug it in. I use these really small ones, like golf ball sized that came with some tiny cheap desktop aquarium setups...don't even know if you buy them seperate, but just get the cheapest smallest airpump you can find. That will oxygenate the water, help keep it from getting stagnate because of the water motion, and the bubbling adds kinda a nice spring fed effect to the pond, kinda makes the viv feel more "alive". 


Here is a trick for doing a waterfall that is less trouble then most.... 
Suspend the pump off the bottom of the pond. Most people set their pump on the bottom of the pond, smart ones maybe put a box around with foam or some kind of filter material to keep it from getting clogged, and allow easy access to it...this is a good idea but another simple thing to do is just suspend it or set it up on a stone (assuming your pond is deep enough) Because all the crap sinks, the pump draws its water from the cleaner upper column of water... like this 75 i did. That is just the top of a large exoterra water fall, hidden by wood and the pump just hangs down into the pond...thing never clogged in like 2 years.









You can make a waterfall on the back wall with foam, or black spray foam, rocks etc..etc... and have pump just dangle into the the water if you aren't using a stand alone waterfall like the exoterra. Also you can put a waterfall in a large pond, and drill a hole in the basin so that the waterfall shares its water with the pond, meaning you never have to refill the waterfall...just the pond. That is the real bummer with stand alone waterfalls....they look great, then you realize due to evaporation you have to refill them every week or so. The one in that 75 drew its water from the main pond, so after the pond went down 2 inches or so I'd just top it off...I think I used the bottom of the pond as my fox's water dish


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Oh I forgot, anubis nana is a good viv pond plant...stays small, very easy. Java ferns are good too...and I'd do salvia natens for smaller viv ponds, and frogbit if you do a large viv with a pond of more then 1 square foot of surface area. 

You can probably find frogbit on aquabid.com. Micro sword and other dwarf sword/grass type plants are often ok too...I actually have one that colonized the land so my viv lools like it has a lawn growing now kinda...sorta sucked since I was growing utricularia graminfolia in there which is like even more tiny grass that can sprout bluish/pink/purple flowers and the stupid sword started choking it out.

One thing to consider though is frogbit, or salvia since it is a surface plant will block light to any plants below....but if you plant java ferns, and anubis nana half in/out of the water they'll probably still get enough light to be ok, and stay wet enough not to die. Like you can see that anubis nana growing on the side of the pond in the pic of the 75gal


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> Oh I forgot, anubis nana is a good viv pond plant...stays small, very easy. Java ferns are good too...and I'd do salvia natens for smaller viv ponds, and frogbit if you do a large viv with a pond of more then 1 square foot of surface area.
> 
> You can probably find frogbit on aquabid.com. Micro sword and other dwarf sword/grass type plants are often ok too...I actually have one that colonized the land so my viv lools like it has a lawn growing now kinda...sorta sucked since I was growing utricularia graminfolia in there which is like even more tiny grass that can sprout bluish/pink/purple flowers and the stupid sword started choking it out.
> 
> One thing to consider though is frogbit, or salvia since it is a surface plant will block light to any plants below....but if you plant java ferns, and anubis nana half in/out of the water they'll probably still get enough light to be ok, and stay wet enough not to die. Like you can see that anubis nana growing on the side of the pond in the pic of the 75gal


Your tanks are amazing! You have given me tons to think about. It can all be a little overwhelming at once when learning about these.. but this is all things that I need to know to make this a successful build. I am clueless when it comes to the plants.. and haven't researched many types. None of this actually became realistic until my tank arrived. 

I've decided for sure on these specific parts of the viv

1. false bottom
2. pond of some type
3. group of 4-5 leucs (most likely Brittish Guyana/Banded)
4. general viv design
5. Iso/springs

Things I'm still not sure about

1. plants
2. lighting
3. water feature
4. other things I'm sure I haven't thought about yet

I'm planning on starting my false bottom and background this week.. so I suppose I should get tons of research done lol. It isn't something that I want to rush though. I can't wait to get started though. Hopefully I can remember to take some pics and upload them. This type of help during my build will be invaluable!

Thank you all again


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> Your tanks are amazing! You have given me tons to think about. It can all be a little overwhelming at once when learning about these.. but this is all things that I need to know to make this a successful build. I am clueless when it comes to the plants.. and haven't researched many types. None of this actually became realistic until my tank arrived.
> 
> I've decided for sure on these specific parts of the viv
> 
> ...


Thanks!

Plants: Broms are what most people focus on...and frankly I'm tired of them, and have moved away from using them much years ago unless it is for a pumilio tank...but they are fine and there are some beautiful vivs with them but if you look at my vivs you'll see that I tend to go with genseriads, jewel orchids, smaller ferns like suzi wong, fluffy ruffles and the iridescent thialandicum fern, peacock moss (sagenlla uncinata...spelled wrong). For flowering plants I tend to go with sinningia's, chirtas, episcias...violetbarn.com is a good place to find such plants. And when I can afford it I'll be moving more into mini orchids. But overall pay particular attention to how high a plant grows. It is a real pain always having to prune. Here is a list of plant vendors...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/feedback-questions/55466-can-plant-seller-list-sticky.html

LEARN QUICKLY TO STICK WITH SMALLER PLANTS... You'll be so glad you did because it is amazing how much bigger things often get then they label says they will...and how your beautifully landscaped perfectly planned viv can turn into an overgrown and much less attractive jungle very quickly where some plants choke out or over shadow your other plants killing them and your ground covers like moss unless you prune diligently. Leave spaces between plants for them to grow. Most plants that are 12 inches or under will do ok with 3-6 inches of space around them...and then they'll all meet up and it will look lush in a few months...and mostly stay that way instead of going to hell.


I'd try to go with plants that stay under 12 inches...18 inches max. 
Blackjungle, violetbarn, joshsfrogs, kartuz, and mountainorchids are some of my favorites.... andy's orchids and JLorchids for orchids (duh)

You want plants that will also handle humidity/moist soil....but there are tricks to getting plants that are borderline viv suitable or aren't quite viv suitable to working in a viv....This typically involves either mounting them on the background, growing them in pots buried in the viv substrate and hidden that contain faster draining soil types like orchid mixes. Fern pots are nice...they tend to grow moss and blend in well and are nice an airy so plant roots don't rot. And of course just having your entire substrate be of a faster draining type can help. That is why I suggested leca and sphag mix...many people through peatmoss and stuff in that is great for holding moisture but to much so....Inert soils like sand, turface, leca, sponge rock, lava rock, or chunky organics like coconut chips, and cyprus mulch, fur bark, tree fern fiber etc... tend to last longer and be better draining while providing air to plant roots so they don't rot. To much peatmoss in the mix tends to seal up all those airy areas and results in a soil that after 6mo-to a year or so won't drain nearly as well and will kill some more finicky plants.


Lighting: So many choices... For most of my vivs I use the old black incandescent strip lights...basically they look like this...









They are most often sold in the fluorescent style, but petco/petsmart and especially ma and pa type pet stores often still have some of the incandescent type. Normally they'd suck, but thanks to the GE screw in spiral cf bulbs you can buy now like at wal-mart you can turn one of these old strip lights into a really nice bright viv light...about twice the light or more then the florescent tube styles of the same length put out. 2 of the 18 inch ones and 4 13watt-20 watt daylight spiral CF bulbs, or the led style lights like lightyourreptiles.com sells would work great in them...


As for the Led screw in bulbs I'm talking about ones similar to the light your reptiiles.com bulbs (you can actually find similar style bulbs that aren't quite as bright or have the most optimum mix of cool/warm white leds and are instead the standard 6500k that most people use...but are almost as good for about half the price...)
This is what they look like... and this one is from firstrays.com and is competitively priced with lightyourreptiles version and has similar specs..









Here is the version I'll probably buy that is less then half the price and looks to be almost as good since it is still in the 6000-6800k color temp range that everyone uses on vivs now and grows plants just fine.
Wholesale E27 13W 64 LED SMD 5050 90-265V Light Lamp Bulb Energy Saving - Cool White - LED Indoor Lighting

And this is what a standard cf spiral looks like...









There is a seller on ebay that sells china knock off type led and t-5 lighting...I think the brand is odyssea or something...or it used to be. From my research they actually tend to be pretty decent and much cheaper then the name-brand stuff.
EVO 24" 6500K LED Aquarium Freshwater Plant Tetra Discus Tropical Fish 16x 3W | eBay
(Be sure to check out this seller's ebay store)

I'm secure enough with them that my next fixture will probably be one...worth a shot for that cheap. I've seen some youtube reviews too that were favorable. Apparently there used to some some fire concerns a few years ago but he build/safety quality of them seems to have gotten better in the last couple years.

He labels the freshwater lights in green borders and/or letters and that is what you want because those are 6500k color temp with is about what natural daylight looks like and most people use in vivariums. Ones that have some blue actinic or moonlight leds are fine as long as there are only a couple but some "freshwater" lights are throwing in a bunch of the blues now like this light... (don't get this one, it is just an example)
LED Hex 24" Aquarium Light Freshwater Bright 120x LED Tropical Fish Tetra 60 Cm | eBay
It says freshwater but it uses 10000k whites and a bunch of actinic blues and that is basically the same combo of color temps they use on reef tanks...so no you don't want that or everything in your viv will look blue.
2000-4000k warm white lights are like typical lightbulbs that have kinda a cream color.... 5500-8000k (6500-6800 being the sweet spot) pure white or "daylight" bulbs represent colors better, are nicer to look at and have decent spectrum ranges for growing plants, and are typically what everyone uses in vivs. Above 8000k you start getting really blue looking light, and like I said 10000k+ with actinic 400ish nanometer range blue lights are more for reef tanks.

This t-5 light alone would probably light your tank...
T5 Quad 24" Timer 6500K Aquarium Light Freshwater Plant Discus Tropical Fish 96W | eBay

Here is a bit cheaper and less powerful one that would also probably work...
T5 Quad 20" 6500K Aquarium Light Freshwater Plant Discus Tetra 72W LED Odyssea | eBay

With either light you may need an 18 inch florescent strip light or something to help light the back, especially the 72w one...the 96 may be enough on its own to light your tank. Your tank is about 45 gallons and good rule of thumb is to have at least 2-3watts of lighting per gallon of tank...this is just a general rule and depends on the height of the tank but for yours it fits pretty well. So you are likely going to need at least 90 watts of lighting from 2-3, maybe even 4 light strips.

Led's are typically a more focused light so it penetrates deeper and you can get away with a little less wattage, but because they are so focused one strip on a tank that deep front to back will probably leave the back of your tank a bit dark. So for leds and really just about any light except maybe those quad tube t-5's you are probably going to need at least 2 fixtures to get light to fill in the entire tank front to back. You can probably get away with 18 inch fixtures instead of 24 inch and still have light fill in the sides well enough, the possible exception again being led because of it being more focused.

I had well over a 100 watts of lighting on my 30gal cube. 3 18 inch duel bulb incandescent fixtures with 2 15-26 watt spiral cf bulbs in each fixture and 1 18 inch florescent tube fixture. (the 26w ones were in some fluker metal 18 inch lights which I think are discontinued now, you can only get a 15 to maybe 20 watt into the cheap black plastic ones I mentioned up top to fit with the reflectors and if you take out the reflectors anything over 13watts will usually start melting the plastic)

If you find a light you think might work feel free to run it by me and I'll give you an opinion on if it is enough, if the price is ok etc..etc... Don't be afraid to mix ficture types...nothing wrong with an led fixture, a t-5, and regular florescent strip light all on the same tank. Pay attention to dimensions when buying lights...If that one light won't be enough make sure it leaves you room to put other lights infront or behind it...most will, but some fixtures take up to much space for the light they give you.

Water feature: Your call....nothing wrong with keeping your first viv simple. Basically anytime you do a water feature that requires a pump/plumbing keep in mind evaporation because you don't wanna have to refill/top crap off all the time which is why I like mine to share water with the false bottom, and keep in mind easy access for changing pumps/maintence if it gets clogged, and using some way to keep the pump from getting clogged like hiding it in a box that lets water in but not particles or having it draw water from higher in the water column instead of off the pond bottom. Once you understand these principles and how to implement them water features are easier and not so much maintenance...it is just getting to that point that sours a lot of people on them. 

...That and trying to make water proof barriers....water finds a way  I thought I'd be clever and bury a plastic bowl in my substrate and just use that as a pond...well the evaporation caused condensation on the sides/edges of bowl...water sticks to water...so the water wicked itself right out of the bowl and soaked the substrate. When your water table is at the false bottom level or below that tends not to be so much of a problem because any water that does get into the soil from wicking or evaporation action goes from bottom to top....when it goes right into your top substrate layer that is bad if there is to much. 

That is why splashing waterfalls not done right, and bowls in the substrate over the false bottom and streams tend to lead to soggy or even flooded vivs. You'd think my pond method with a wood or rock shoreline that makes wicking happen easily would be bad...but it is actually better, only the marginal areas will be very soggy...let moss or marginal aquatics grow there. Sloping the soil up from the pond helps to...Notice all my vivs go from a low lying pond area and slope up...that keeps any escaped moisture in the lower strata of the viv.

Other things: Muahhahha...check out some of my special fx threads and my holographic fairy cave thread 

Ok so ends the novel


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

I just want to start by saying that I don't think you could be any more helpful... or awesome than that! I can't even express how grateful I am for the time that you have put into helping me with this. I'm at a loss for words.. which doesn't happen often lol.

Now, away from the sappy stuff and onto your post 

As far as broms go.. yeah, would have to have at least a couple in there lol. I feel like they are an easy to grow plant that just screams tropical. I love some of the color variations to them, and the shiny, waxiness of others. 

I have been thinking about trying to find a nice miniature african violet to add. A touch of color and should stay rather small. I'd like to experiment with a few off-the-wall type of plants. That will take some research though. In a self sustaining vivarium I may be ok.. but in my home I seem to have trouble keeping an artificial plant alive . I love some of the ferns as well, as long as I am able to find some that will not overrun the viv. I've glanced over the plant section quite a few times. Being new, the vocabulary seems a bit intimidating to say the least. I'm catching on, little by little.

Lighting.. I've been looking into the LED lights that Josh's Frogs has. I love the idea that the bulbs are long lasting. They are quite costly though.. and I'm not sure that they are the right fit for a viv. It states that they are, but I haven't been able to find much info on them. I'm assuming that they are rather new to the hobby? I also like the fact that they do not have much heat coming from them. You've given me so much info on the lighting that it is going to take me a while to soak it all in lol. That is the exact info I've been searching for, but without luck. At least not in one place.

I tried to stray away from the water feature. That lasted a matter of hours. I'm back to a simple feature that would allow a bit of circulation without sacrificing to much of the floor area. 

Thanks for the offer. I will probably take you up on that as soon as I look into some of the lighting that you pointed out. I won't flood your inbox, promise 

Ooh.. special fx! That sounds really interesting. I will be sure to check that out. I'm not brave enough to do something like that myself (at least not at this stage) but I'm more than happy to live vicariously through someone else and enjoy it!


~Tonya


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> I just want to start by saying that I don't think you could be any more helpful... or awesome than that! I can't even express how grateful I am for the time that you have put into helping me with this. I'm at a loss for words.. which doesn't happen often lol.
> 
> Now, away from the sappy stuff and onto your post
> 
> ...


No prob...you caught me in a talkative mood I guess.

The only led lights I found on josh's site were those jungle dawn ones, the same lightyourreptiles sells....those look really good, and the mix of warm/cool white leds for a more optimum plant growing spectrum is appealing...and it is always nice to support the sponsers but I'm poor. I just can't justify spending that much when I can get a similar bulb that is about 90% as good (assuming is is reliable...and they look like they are built about the same) for less then half the price. But other then that those should be great viv bulbs...i've really been wanting to try that style or some time, in fact I think more then a couple of years ago I was one of the first to talk about using those when they first came out as cheap led solution and everyone was getting all excited about led lighting for vivs and aquariums and from what I've heard everyone has been pretty satisfied...I've just been to broke and/or forgetful to actually get them myself  Oh another option is they now have t-5 and t-8 tubes full of LEDs to replace the standard tube florescent light bulbs. 

But...
Some how in my DIY mind set I totally forgot exo terra makes light fixtures for those tanks LOL...so ya those would actually be good and decently priced from what I remember for what you get...and putting those jungledawn led bulbs or even just GE brand spiral daylight CF bulbs from wal-mart in them will work fine...You'll probably need 2 fixtures though. I think those fixtures will fit a 26 watt spiral bulb too...which is nice. That is like a 1000 lumens per bulb, comparable to the jungledawn style ones, though with all those leds facing down, and the nature of leds being more focused in general they might not be as bright as LEDs with similar lumen output....but 2 fixtures with 4 26 watt spirals will probably light that viv fine.

The other thing I'm not sure has been touched on is retrofitting the top of the exo terra tanks...Unless they've changed them, they are 2 sections of screen top separated by a divider beam in the middle. Most people take that screen out or lay a piece of glass or acrylic cut to fit on top of them to prevent ff escapes and hold humidity in. Glass would be better because acrylic and warp from heat. If you go with the LED bulbs that may not be an issue though and acrylic is easier to cut yourself to fit....glass you'll probably have to have the hardware store cut it to your specifications.

You probably wanna leave at least a 1 inch wide strip of screen exposed for ventilation though. If you do a forum search for "ff proof exo terra" you'll find a ton of threads discussing how to modify those tanks. I've actually never owned one so I'm only kinda familiar with what is involved.

If I were you I'd probably at least try the corner pond with a bubbler....just to get the experience. If you don't like it, basically throw an inch of gravel or leca into it, then some substrate on top of it, plant some plants/moss and it will be like it was never there. 

Plants you learn as you go...I was never really into them before I got into this hobby and could care less...I was all about the frogs but then I got hooked on the plants and trying to find interesting stuff...or in how to get stuff I wanted to work that wasn't supposed to work in a viv to actually work etc..etc... I've literally done 100's of hours of plant research looking for vendors, discovering plants that may work in a viv, or finding rare things bla bla bla... A lot of it is trial and error and the one thing I keep coming back to like I said is try to stick to smaller stuff unless it is a really large viv. 

Right now my only exceptions to that rule are blue impatiens, blue daze evolvus because they are some of only a handful of plants with truly blue flowers that might work in a viv and ecbolium viride since it is the only turquoise flowering plant that I can find suitable for a viv (very few turquoise flowers in nature period). It is actually doing really well and already flowered once...gets a little tall though but I sacrifice and prune for blue or turquoise flowers  The impatens and evolvus I killed by not following my own advice about having good substrates with good drainage and vivs with adequate ventilation....but pretty sure both will work in the right setup as they were hanging on pretty well at first.

Ecobolium viride









evolvus blue daze









Blue Impatiens namchabarwensis (sometimes gets a little purplish depending on conditions)










Look into jewel orchids....stunning, they actually have like glittery gold/silver veins and typically do well in vivs....You can basically lay them down on the substrate and they will root into it. If their feet get to wet they can rot but most people do ok with em.
Macodes petola (Yes it really does glitter/almost glow like that)









2 of the very few iridescent plants available commercially...
Microsorium thialandicum fern (sometimes hard to find but black jungle has this now)









Selaginella uncinata (peacock moss...easy to find)


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

I hadn't thought of needing two lighting fixtures before now. I guess with buying everything online (stores here didn't carry my tank size) I haven't really had a good look at them. I think I need to take a trip to petsmart or petco so I can at least get an in person view of them. With needing that many bulbs, I may just have to wait on LEDs. The thought of buying 4 right now doesn't seem rational.. when I could get the cheaper bulbs with almost the same effect for so much cheaper. That would give me more money to use on planting the viv.

Speaking of.. I really do like some of those plants. I would have to say that my favorites are Microsorium Thialandicum Fern and Macodes Petola. So unique!

When I think of an orchid I picture the delicate, single stemmed flower that blooms rarely. That doesn't seem to be what I'm seeing in the vivs that are planted with orchids. I'm guessing they aren't exactly the orchids that I had in mind. From what I understand, can't they root to wood instead of the substrate to help with root rot? 

The colorful plants are great too.. but I'm not sure what colors I am going to use right now. I want to keep all colors in the same range.. with just touches of color here and there.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> I hadn't thought of needing two lighting fixtures before now. I guess with buying everything online (stores here didn't carry my tank size) I haven't really had a good look at them. I think I need to take a trip to petsmart or petco so I can at least get an in person view of them. With needing that many bulbs, I may just have to wait on LEDs. The thought of buying 4 right now doesn't seem rational.. when I could get the cheaper bulbs with almost the same effect for so much cheaper. That would give me more money to use on planting the viv.
> 
> Speaking of.. I really do like some of those plants. I would have to say that my favorites are Microsorium Thialandicum Fern and Macodes Petola. So unique!
> 
> ...


It is always good to see stuff in person, get a better feel for it. I think the exoterra fixtures will work just fine and they are typically priced pretty reasonably compared to other fixtures. Ya IMO, just go with the spiral 26 watt daylight bulbs and work up to the jungledawn or similar LEDs...spend the money on plants and crap for now.

Ya those are 2 of my favorites also.

There are tons of orchid species... epithetic orchids grow on trees or in our case vivarium backgrounds like treefern, cork, etc... Then there are the mini orchids many of those are epithytes too...and terrestrials like the jewel orchid macodes petola and many non jewel orchids. Some are tiny...some are huge...most of what you'd find at lowes or homedepot and even most garden center type places are not suitable for the viv....they are dryer species usually. JLorchids and andy's orchids are good places for viv orchids

A lot of plants can be grown as epithytes but some people think it is blasphemy to say/do that if they aren't typically found that way in nature 

Building little pots into your background is nice for such things...like cork tubes cut at an angle to make a pot and silicone that onto the back glass.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks for the tips. I believe I will make a trip to the a few pet stores this week. I haven't attempted it yet because I usually find the exact things, not to mention a little cheaper, online.

I wish I had some artistic abilities.. I would sketch up my idea and show it. That isn't really an option, so I guess I'll just learn as I go. Regardless.. the frogs won't get here until it is running perfectly for a while 

Thanks again for all of your help. It is truly appreciated!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Moriko said:


> Thanks for the tips. I believe I will make a trip to the a few pet stores this week. I haven't attempted it yet because I usually find the exact things, not to mention a little cheaper, online.
> 
> I wish I had some artistic abilities.. I would sketch up my idea and show it. That isn't really an option, so I guess I'll just learn as I go. Regardless.. the frogs won't get here until it is running perfectly for a while
> 
> Thanks again for all of your help. It is truly appreciated!


No problem...good luck!


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