# Calling experts re. Imitators, tadpoles and broms



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I was reading on the Dendrobates imitator imitator (spotted w/blue/green/yellow morph) and read on potential cannibalism among tads. First of all, have any breeders been letting the males raise the young on their own in broms, and if so, do the frogs have the sense to put each tad in its own pocket of water?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

My pair raise all their own tads and have put multiple in the same water source many times, even with other sites available nearby. Usually one tad will get much larger than the other and eventually feed on the smaller one. They know better than I do so why intervene


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## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

I also let my imis raise their tads and haven't pulled eggs in a long time (if I did, I would be over-run with imitator). The males (or tads) seem pretty good about choosing a good site to deposit. You might find that over the long term, you'll have more trouble keeping the broms alive than the frogs, especially if you don't provide the ventilation the broms need. Mine always rotted from keeping them full during breeding so I just use film canisters. Of course, my imi tank is totally sealed up so that was probably my main problem with the broms.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I agree with Lee. In nature we would probably see some of this canibalisim, weeds out some weaker offspring. Personally I plan on allowing my Imitators to do their thing.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The cannibalism has a lot to do with the spots to raise the tads being a limited resource... if you have enough spots to have them desposit that they like, you'll have less cases of this, and they'll work more on feeding the tads then putting tads together.


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

I have some imitator tads that I have been experimenting with different ways to raise them. I have multiple deli cups, some with 3 tads, some with 2 and some with only 1. I have not seen any cannibalism, but in some cases it seems to stunt growth in 1 tad out of the group. When the size difference gets to be noticeable, I move the smaller tads to their own containers. It doesn't always stunt growth, some of the cups have 2 or 3 tads that all have grown large and fast at the same rate. I'm not sure why only occasionally it happens.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have no imitators, but I have decided to let my leucs raise their own eggs and tads in the broms in their tank. I have a big stripey vresia in there that they lay all their eggs on( a clutch a week now) I never did see where the male moved the first group of tads( I am a newbie at breeding) but I assume they are in the axils of the same brom. Seems like they don't need a lot of space, and I would rather have a little cannibalism and all healthy froglets than some runts along with the healthy ones. Shit, I would never try to pawn a runt off onto someone. Fat froggies only. My dominant male who does all the "action" with the ladies seems like a good dad, he guards the eggs and checks on them every day. I assume he will get the tads to a good, safe location. I tried putting coco huts in for breeding, and 1.5oz cups for tad pools, but he doesn't like any of them, just loves his bromeliad. I have had the same broms in this tank for 2 years now, and they all bloom and pup out nicely. As long as the bottoms don't rot, they seem to be bomb proof. I only have a few tiny holes drilled into the tank's lid, not much ventilation, but seems to make the plants happy.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Leucs are waaaaaay different that thumbnails, and shouldn't be depositing their tads in broms (they don't egg feed, the broms cannot support a tadpole food wise, they need bigger bodies of water!). You'll need to give the frogs bigger bodies of water to deposit their tads, or pull the mostly developed eggs. 1.5oz pools aren't big enough for a tinc group tad... you'll need more like 16oz pools.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Like Corey said, it really has to do with having enough deposition sites. Normally, if it just a pair in a tank they would most likely avoid using a spot that is already occupied with another tadpole. Since the frogs are in a viv where conditions are fairly constant and also fairly optimal for breeding, they may be producing more tads then normal (either laying more clutches, larger clutches, having more eggs make it to the tadpole stage, etc.) which could lead to having too many tads and not enough suitable deposition sites. Anyway, even if they are deposting tads in already occupied sites then it still should end up with at least one good froglet. 

MELLOWROO421... You may only occasionally notice stunted growth and cannibalism for several reasons, but if you are pulling the tads as soon as there is a noticeable size difference I don't think you can really say it wouldn't happen if left alone. I'm not saying there is a 100% chance that it would happen either, just that you would really need to leave the tadpole together until they all morph out, die, eat each other, etc. to get a true representation of what is going on with your tads. I'm pretty sure if you kept the larger tads with the smaller tads that you remove, or even new tads, the largest would cannibalize the smaller ones. This is seen in the wild, and in captive populations as well. It is why they tend to avoid deposition sites that are already occupied.

However, after writing all of this I think there is some evidence of _Ranitomeya ventrimaculata_ does intentionally use cannibalism but don't quote me on that one.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks! There are tads in the brom right now. Feeding on drowned ff's and misc. debris. I can see one as we speak.brom is mounted and behind a big piece of wood. Maybe a big deli cup in there will get the male to move them, otherwise might have to remove the whole brom somehow. Don't want to do it, since it is the only place they like to lay eggs, but will try. It is a bigger brom, each axil holds approx 2 oz of liquid and more in the center. Moss and leaves and ff's fall in all the time, so it holds nutrients, but maybe not enough for full development of tads w/o supplemental feeding. :shock:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It would be fantastic for thumbnails, but not enough for leucs... if they survive long enough they will not even fit in those little water pcokets, the tads just get way too big.

Tinc group frogs don't care for their tads once they hit water, so they aren't going to pick up the tads and move them to new water (they will just deposit new tads there). No PDF moves their tads after they hit water as far as I know. A turkey baster may be able to suck them out if they are still tiny (put it in as deep as you can as the tad will go to the bottom of the axil) or using a spoon when larger will help you get them out.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks, they have only been in there for three days I think. Maybe four. I will just start removing eggs from the leaves, and try to get those tads out of the brom somehow. I really appreciate the info. They are getting a new viv soon, and I think I will forego the big broms to avoid this issue in the future


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

> MELLOWROO421... You may only occasionally notice stunted growth and cannibalism for several reasons, but if you are pulling the tads as soon as there is a noticeable size difference I don't think you can really say it wouldn't happen if left alone. I'm not saying there is a 100% chance that it would happen either, just that you would really need to leave the tadpole together until they all morph out, die, eat each other, etc. to get a true representation of what is going on with your tads. I'm pretty sure if you kept the larger tads with the smaller tads that you remove, or even new tads, the largest would cannibalize the smaller ones. This is seen in the wild, and in captive populations as well. It is why they tend to avoid deposition sites that are already occupied.


Jbeetle, one of the main reasons I pull them when I notice the difference in size is to avoid any possible cannibalism. Excuse me if I was unclear, I didn't mean to say it wouldn't happen, just that I have not seen it happen, nor have I given them the chance to start snacking on each other. I could understand the possibility of one eating another that is much smaller, especially if there is lack of food present but I have not observed any cannibalism in like size tads living in the same water.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

MELLOWROO421, sorry if I misunderstood. I was really just thinking out loud about how you could further your experiments and just wanted to address the fact that cannibalism of tadpoles does happen with imitator (which was part of the original question of this thread). However, I am guessing you want to rear as many tadpoles as possible to froglets. So having them fight it out wouldn't really help with that. Anyway, good luck with your tads.


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

No need to appologize :wink: I'm actually thinking I'm gonna start keeping all my tads individually now. Thanks for the advice though, I'm always looking to try new things and learn from experience as much as possible, but raising as many to frogs from tads is by far the #1 goal. 
Sorry for jacking the thread


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> I have some imitator tads that I have been experimenting with different ways to raise them. I have multiple deli cups, some with 3 tads, some with 2 and some with only 1. I have not seen any cannibalism, but in some cases it seems to stunt growth in 1 tad out of the group. When the size difference gets to be noticeable, I move the smaller tads to their own containers. It doesn't always stunt growth, some of the cups have 2 or 3 tads that all have grown large and fast at the same rate. I'm not sure why only occasionally it happens.


From reading so far, it sounds like the behavior of coupling tads in one pool might help them have a failsafe in case they seldom feed that one youngster or overlook him. Then he could just eat his brother or sister until food came again or a bug fell in.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

frogparty said:


> I have no imitators, but I have decided to let my leucs raise their own eggs and tads in the broms in their tank. I have a big stripey vresia in there that they lay all their eggs on( a clutch a week now) I never did see where the male moved the first group of tads( I am a newbie at breeding) but I assume they are in the axils of the same brom. Seems like they don't need a lot of space, and I would rather have a little cannibalism and all healthy froglets than some runts along with the healthy ones. Shit, I would never try to pawn a runt off onto someone. Fat froggies only. My dominant male who does all the "action" with the ladies seems like a good dad, he guards the eggs and checks on them every day. I assume he will get the tads to a good, safe location. I tried putting coco huts in for breeding, and 1.5oz cups for tad pools, but he doesn't like any of them, just loves his bromeliad. I have had the same broms in this tank for 2 years now, and they all bloom and pup out nicely. As long as the bottoms don't rot, they seem to be bomb proof. I only have a few tiny holes drilled into the tank's lid, not much ventilation, but seems to make the plants happy.


Good point about the 'runts' not needing to survive---I guess cannibalism serves to keep the species robust...(of course, not applicable to humans where we are worth more than our outward appearance... :wink: )


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

True, but when trying to keep only breedable quality animals, runts gotta go. I think that a lot of humans are "intellectual runts" and they shouldn't be breeding either.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Sometime back, a breeder who regularly posts on DB was talking about tadpole care as it relates to SLS. He said that he purposefully leaves his tads in containers with rather steep slopes from the water to the land area. This would pretty much ensure that frogs with SLS could not climb out, as might happen in the wild (I am guessing here), it would also keep frogs with weaker front arms (not necessarily obvious SLS) from climbing out. He commented that he did not feel it was a good idea to coddle any of his tads, as that would possibly lead to weaker animals being added to the gene pool. He only wanted the stronger ones to be passed on. That stuck with me personally. I dont think I will ever give a tad extra help if it is clearly lacking. No one is there in nature to push them a long.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

dont really have time to comment properly on this but Brent had written some really insightful comments a while back (I think on TWI forums) on how we impose unnatural selections on much of our frogs and how that can negatively effect the gene pool. who's to say a frog that cant climb a steep dixie cup would be weeded out in the wild in a similar fashion. Also keep in mind "runts" or "less desirable" frogs carry many more alleles than just the ones your trying to weed out. what if your unnaturally selecting these to be dropped from the gene pool as well. If we want to stay as true to wild type as possible we need to keep the good as well as the bad.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

We deal with something similar in the fisheries industry while spawning salmon. Wild salmon runs of chinook and coho have "jacks" younger males that return a year early and spawn. For years, the hatcheries spawning returning salmon did not use these for spawning and removed them from the gene pool, where as wild jacks often spawn. Nowadays, to insure as diverse a gene pool as possible, we use these jacks to add to our spawners. 
I understand the need to preserve a diverse gene pool in dart frogs, especially since so many of the rarer species, or species only infrequently imported, are being propogated from only a few bloodlines. However, we as keepers are far nicer to our frogs than mother nature, and far more of our offspring reach maturity, which is great, especially as demand rises. I consider "runts" to be obviously behind the rest of the group, and assume that they would be out competed for food or prime habitat. I am not saying that smaller froglets are bad, and I am not saying that they would surely die an earlier death than the others. But, if there are individuals in your population that need the extra " coddling" I would not breed them because nothing is there in nature to coddle them. Keep it as a pet if you want, but I have limited space to work with animals now, and only want to dedicate space to animals I can work with, because I try to give my animals the most possible space, instead of putting the most animals I can in the space I have ( or don't have)


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

IMO - I don't like coddling my tadpoles and froglets in an effort to get as many animals as possible... but with runts you really have to know the full history of the animal. There are weak animals that were coddled and survived because of that, and there are healthy animals that were runted because of the keeper. Runts as a general term just means undersized... but the specific definition varies from person to person and has many, many different causes.

Also, going back to the testing of the tadpoles in deli cups... imitators are not aggressively cannibilistic like ventrimaculatus and may be raised in groups if under the right circumstances. How much water was the deli cup holding? I've seen these guys raised up perfectly fine in shot glasses (I've raised them in el cheapo voltive candle holders which are about the same size, cheaper, and can also be used as a shot glass by poor college students), but put two in that oz of water... and the larger tad that was there first may not be nearly so friendly as it may have been in 8oz of water.


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