# learn from my fail



## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

hello, im new here. 

great now that we got that out of the way....

i scored a 12x12x18 zoomed for $35 brand new from your local chain store with grandiose ideas of starting a dart tank. 

after careful reading, i learned that its pretty much only big enough for.....nothing. 

SOOO.... i planted it anyway. 

substrate-ecoearth/treefern/charcoal mix. hydroball base layer
kitty litter mix background
"tree" was a cork tube that i chopped into strips long ways
plants were scavenged from around the house. 

protip: check your local mom and pop pet store (lfs) for deals on used lights and pumps....scored my light for $15-12'' zoomed 

also, dont impulse buy. 

i should have just spent my money on guns. this is bound to end badly. 

expect something fun to live in this tank, like house geckos or an anole.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Why not Thumbs? that looks like a 10g or close to it which is fine for a pair or group. I have 3 iquitos in a 10g vertical tank.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Who says its too small for everything?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You could house a pair of Imitator thumbnails in there, though I would recommend pulling the moss at the bottom and replacing it with leaf litter.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Also it looks great so kudos to your building skill


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## KRich Frogger (Feb 15, 2013)

I have 3 orange Sirensis in a exo 12x12x18 and they have lots of room lol


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

the internet says its too small. 

also, i kind of want it to grow in more before i sink some cash into some frogs. 

my frog experience is limited to one green tree frog i found on my door back in 01. kept him 2 years in a 10g before i let him go...

ive got much to learn, and more changes to make to the tank. 

i feel it needs a small fan. maybe more light. idk. 
the fact the clay background hasnt fallen off yet feels like a minor win. 

once i learn more about them and find a local breeder that doesnt want my first born, ill probably get a frog or two....


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

11.2 gallons (thanks google )

This is definately big enough for some frogs! You won't regret it!


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> You could house a pair of Imitator thumbnails in there, though I would recommend pulling the moss at the bottom and replacing it with leaf litter.


still learning your lingo....

thumbnail= young frogs? 

that would eventually need a bigger tank? 

gosh....i just put this one together....

i dont expect the moss to last.....i have a bad track record with it typically. 

short of buying some leaf litter, im waiting for fall...i do have some magnolia leaves in there...

i have spent less than $100 on this build so far.....bairly


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DarkElvis said:


> the internet says its too small.


Oh, well if the internet said it, it *HAS* to be true! 



DarkElvis said:


> still learning your lingo....
> 
> thumbnail= young frogs?
> 
> ...


Thumbnails are my passion. I keep almost exclusively, thumbnail frogs. Thumbnail is a "generic" term for Ranitomeya frogs. Frogs that don't get much bigger than your thumbnail when fully grown. A pair of imitator thumbnails could live their entire life out in that viv and be happy enough to breed. If and when they breed, however, I would pull the froglets and raise them elsewhere as you are at a minimum for space.

Just for kicks, lets look at your space. 12 x 12 x 18 divided by 231 = 11.2 gallons. There are breeders and keepers that keep (and breed) a pair of thumbnails in a 10 gallon vertical viv. 

Moss and leaf litter. Moss is for you, not your frogs. Leaf litter is for your frogs. Leaf litter gives them hunting grounds and it promotes the growth of microfauna (tiny bugs that reproduce in your viv). Leaf litter makes shy frogs bolder because they learn that cover and safety is only a hop away.
Moss is great...on your walls, and on your wood. But please, keep in mind that yes, you can keep a pair of thumbs in there, BUT don't kid yourself. Your space IS at a premium. Don't waste space with moss on the floor. Give those future thumbs some leaf litter for hunting grounds!


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

my wallet told me not to listen to you. 


ill hunt more leaf litter. 

the local money pit (pet store) actually has cultures of isos and spring tails. 
again, before i jump into the deep end, id like to "age" the tank a bit more. 

the price point is putting major breaks on the whole thing. i def. need to find a local breeder. ill pay 30 a frog tops.


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## trevorthetoad (Nov 5, 2012)

You can probably find someone selling ranitomeya ventrimaculata tadpoles or froglets for 30 dollars or less. The French Guiana morph in particular can be found pretty cheap.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I have a crap load of vent tads I'll send you two for free if you pay for shipping and supplys. Shoot me a pm.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Look on facebook for a frog group local to your area. Private people tend to put way more care and attention to their frogs and even their bugs than a pet store will. Prices are often way better too. I met people on a facebook group that are my go to people now whenever I need anything.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Tell your wallet to butt out!!  I wasn't talking to him!

That is unusual for a pet shop to have springtails and isopods. They are definitely highly recommended! I've shipped out about 25 boxes of springtails and isopods just in the last two weeks.
Here are your "how to" instructions for isopods and springtails. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html

If you are patient and shop around, there are thumbnails you may find in that price range. 
Standard/Green/Nominant Imitator (Pic 1 -- Sorry Lou...Don't smack me, it's an old pic!)
Orange Sirensis/Lamasi (Somebody give us a picture, please)
The price on Green Sirensis sometimes dips down that low. (pics 2 and 3)
Ventramaculatus (Somebody give us a pic of a Vent that may be in that price range sometimes)


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

DarkElvis said:


> my wallet told me not to listen to you.


I'll warn you. Nobody ever listens to there wallets around here! Ever! Ok, maybe a slight exaggeration... but I can count how many impulse buys I've heard about. That is why everybody keeps a "quarantine" tank handy. Most people need one to throw their impulse buys into while they get the vivarium ready.
So join the club. And quit listening to your wallet! Remember, your wallet is always thinking about itself. Never you considering your wants. 
Ok, seriously though, be wise with your money. It is one thing to joke around about, but another to actually do it is another. Though, come to think of it, this hobby is quite rewarding when you put good money into the right things.


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

What a misleading title! Not only did you build your viv before you got frogs, but you did some homework on how to build it. That's a sweet looking build. Plenty of information on the boards and you've already gotten a ton of great advice. 

Good luck on the finishing touches and finding some frogs!


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

Fist of all, your tank looks great! Well done on the build. Also, the formula HxWxD/231=total volumn in gallons (231 square inches in a gallon) i.e. 12x12x18=2591.9/231=11.2 gallons of room....Just FYI for future reference. 

Also, I grabbed this paragraph from Josh'sfrogs.com to give you some useful info: 

"Dendrobates ventrimaculatus
Ranitomeya ventrimaculata

Ranitomeya ventrimaculata (also known as Dendrobates ventrimaculatus, and R. amazonica) is another common thumbnail frog in the US hobby. In the wild, they are found throughout Amazonia (French Guiana, Brazil, Ecuador, and Peru), and display a wide variety of colors (most retain the typical striped pattern). Common forms in the hobby include R. ventrimaculata 'French Guiana', R. ventrimaculata 'amazonica', and R. ventrimaculata 'Iquitos'.

Vents share the typical Ranitomeya breeding behaviors with R. imitator, with a few important differences. Ranitomeya ventrimaculata is a much more prolific breeder, with a single female sometimes laying 7-9 eggs at a time. These frogs are also great group breeders, with multiple males and females congregating and breeding together, sometimes resulting to globs of 15 or more eggs, which are typically laid underwater in bromeliads or film canisters. Vents can be very, very prolific breeders, even if left to their own devices. I once housed a pair in a 12x12x18 Exo Terra Glass Terrarium. After a year, I tore the vivarium apart, only to discover 9 adult frogs!

Housing and feeding is virtually identical to Ranitomeya imitator. Vents will appreciate lots of leaf litter to sort through, and the extra springtails it provides. Unlike Imitators, vents tend to be very shy frogs for the most part."

As you can see, thats the same Exo that you have! You should be in good shape. You also will most likely NOT need a fan for that size tank, IMO. Good luck with future additions. Keep up the good work!


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## redfrogger (Nov 6, 2010)

If you want to see some picutures of some amazonica (blue legged vents) you can check here. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/frog-classifieds/94259-r-amazonica-sale.html

They are a great beginner thumbnail-I can check to see if I have any available if you like


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

wow. never got this much love as a noob before! thanks for the info everyone. 

one thing that i have taken from my reefing days is patience. with that said, ill keep my eyes peeled. the ONE guy i knew who kept azures got out of the navy and moved to ohio....remind me to thank him for the horrible affliction he has given me. 

reefing + deployments + busy wife & kid does not make a successful reef. 

since its summer im having trouble finding decent leaf litter, and im not buying leaves. the hunt continues. im sure ill find a pocket of small leaves somewhere. 

this is a budget build and id like to keep it that way. 

its been up a week or so, so far. i feel like im waiting for my wall to fall off
i didnt follow the kitty litter recipe EXACTLY, however im pretty confident it will continue to hold. if not, it will be simple enough to do right the second time. i thought spraying my tank full of GS was kind of drastic, especially since this is my first vertical viv. 

soon as i upgrade my 10g FW to 20L, ill have a QT. 

time to nerd out and read about frogs


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

wanna see an ugly fish tank? 









this is my garage tank. its where the last guppy males of my last strain went to live the rest of their lives out. technically i should have just "culled" but i didnt have the heart. 

i bring this tank up because of the light. its an LED i built and has been on this tank for 6mths roughly. as you can see its feeding the tank pretty well...

i however do not know how it (or similar build) would act on a viv. 

should i just stick to florescent? a link to build that has been using LED long term would be great. 

its an old currentUSA 12'' PC housing that i filled with what i believe are first gen rebels. i cant remember what im driving them to, but its not 3w each....


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## Wyoming frogger (Dec 18, 2009)

The LED's should work great! I would not switch to flourescent


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Wyoming frogger said:


> The LED's should work great! I would not switch to flourescent


its running fluorescent now. i have not switched to LED out of fear of hot spots

the run close to 65k as far as i can tell.


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## Athena (Mar 20, 2013)

DarkElvis said:


> wanna see an ugly fish tank?


Hehehee... you should have seen my neglected 55 gal (at "home" where all it gets is fish food/water changes, not in my apartment). There was quite literally 6 inches of piled up various stem plants on the surface of the water with a 'hole' poked through so the fish could eat. Damned if they didn't like my lighting set up. Should have taken a pic before I whacked it back. I digress...

The tank looks great! You're definitely on the right track  I think lots of folks here will back this up, but if your wallet didn't talk you out of the reef hobby successfully, it can shut the hell up and thank it's lucky stars that you're into a _much_ cheaper hobby now!! .

RE lights, plants aren't super picky like reefs can be. So long as you're in the ballpark of the right spectrum(s) -- which from what you said you have, you're all set -- they'll do ok. If you want to get those really bright reds then you need to start playing around a little more.

At least that's been my experience with my terrariums (frogless ones!!!) But I don't know diddly, so you should probably ignore all that stuff


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

i have done nothing constructive. i dont play in my tank. i keep my hands out of it and only mist it once a day. im a boring person. i dont even use power tools half the time for my builds. 

i know i know....."geee darkelvis, you should get a fancy mist king 5000, its the bee's knees"

i will accept donations to buy said mist king if it pleases the crowd. 

tomorrow i will get rid of some of the moss and put it in a terrarium lamp my mother in law built and add some isos and springtails. 

if they have another one of those 12'' zoomed/exoterra lights for 10-15 bucks i may buy one, gut it and fill it with LEDs....radioshack does not make a 12'' project box unfortunantly

i feel like i need a humidity and thermometer also...idk. nothing is in it so i guess that can wait.

here is a pic of my dog eating a dandelion


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

What is your pet store charging for springtails and isopods. Make sure you are not paying too much.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

i probably should just buy from you hu?

dude is really cool, he said no more than like 5 bucks per culture....sandwich sized tupperware....

this place doesnt cage 80% of their parrots and have a 3ft tengu monitor lizard that just roams the place...

somehow i feel its legit.....

fish selection is kinda meh, lots of bryo and cyano in the hold tanks for SW and the FW is pretty basic...

they are def. more herp and bird oriented. LOTS of used equipment....


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

No, you shouldn't buy from me. Not if you can get them locally for a good price. Sounds like he's got you covered.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> No, you shouldn't buy from me. Not if you can get them locally for a good price. Sounds like he's got you covered.


i try to support the local mom and pop shops in my area.....even if i only spend 2-3 bucks i try not to leave empty handed. 

they have good looking frogs, some thumbs but they are kinda out of the price range that keeps me from getting in trouble....

even if i did save up to get some, she would still have something to say about it.

i typically only pull the man card on my bigger purchases (more than 50) if its something like guns, ammo or car parts. i pick easy battles. 

fun fact: we have a local fish store here that is also an FFL and you get glocks and ARs along with your fish paraphernalia...

being military seeing guns doesnt usually make me bat an eye, but i def. did a double take when they finally made it more public...


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

pulled the ground moss up today and added what i believe is a mix of cherry, magnolia and boxwood leaves. probably gonna need just a hair more...

local store was out of springs and isos, so if they dont have em by next week, looks like im ordering.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

day 17.....still boring and still no frogs...

it hasnt caught fire so i guess im heading in the right direction.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

This thread is making me depressed. "Day 50, still haven't done anything, here's a picture of my BMX bike". 

One thing about thumbs is they hide more than most other darts. If you want something that you're guaranteed to see a lot, get an azureus for $30 from someone nearby.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Hi there Elvis. I am located in Richmond and would love to answer any questions you have. I have been around darts for a while now, and I am no professional, but this thread rang a bell for me.

My first Exo was a 12 x 12 x 18. I got a hold of a pair of Imitators, and on their second day in the Exo I got eggs. While I had them, they were my most prolific pair of frogs (I regret to this day for letting them go  ). 

Your tank looks great and you will have good success with whatever you put in there. I havent read up on the entire thread, but shoot me a PM with what frogs you're interested in and I will try my best to get you a local contact for some frogs!

Cheers mate.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

oldlady25715 said:


> This thread is making me depressed. "Day 50, still haven't done anything, here's a picture of my BMX bike".
> 
> One thing about thumbs is they hide more than most other darts. If you want something that you're guaranteed to see a lot, get an azureus for $30 from someone nearby.


LOL welcome to my world...i come here and i see everyone's fun stuff, then go and look at my empty tank.

think its fun for me? i cry my self to sleep because of my lack of frogs. 

i went as far as putting my 12'' LED fixture on the tank today just for something to do. it was significantly brighter, BUT i may need new optics or something. looks like i got potential hot spots. i may make a fixture with more LEDs but turned down slightly so i dont burn my plants and get better spread.

back to reading and being envious i guess..


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

well im at mold and fungus gnat stage....i really should put something in there to eat them. dang pet store still doesnt have cultures ready. im about to bite the bullet and just buy some springs online. 

in the mean time i guess i should plastic wrap the tank to keep the bugs in and invest in some weather stripping or something. 

any other tips for bug proofing? ive found many via google, but what works for you all?


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

STILL no frogs....just waiting on the right pair. 

added some moss to the background and it seems to be taking. also got a liverwart growing in there now.....

hopefully they will have a meet in my area soon and i can score some thumbs....

oh, i might have a spider in there. i keep knocking down this small web. i have yet to find him.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

pretty boring thread im sure. 

tank has grown in nicely and it teems with springs and has a decent colony of isos. 

AND

no frogs. 

ill get there. building a mini tank for now....thats a top secret project and i cant talk about it


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## superdup (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks for the post, gives me hope. I just bought 2 exo terra same size for $80. Just reading, now have some ideas on what i can do with them.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

DarkElvis said:


> pretty boring thread im sure.
> 
> tank has grown in nicely and it teems with springs and has a decent colony of isos.
> 
> ...


You have frogs coming  Frogs, bugs, tadpoles, supplements, whatever you need. Hell, I have about 70 tadpoles for you to choose from at the moment. Just let me know when you are ready to take them off my hands. Varaderos have dropped tads in film canisters for the past 2 days and the red eyes are nice and cozy with your heater and filter. 

Also, there is a fellow dendroboard member who works at that fish/gun store you speak of. He has mentored me with my frog hobby since even before I had my first darts. I will text you his name in the morning if I remember so you can check out some of his builds on here.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

If he has a viv ready for frogs and has no frogs, maybe he is not ready for frogs. Better to do things with the right motivation and interest at the right time.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

rigel10 said:


> If he has a viv ready for frogs and has no frogs, maybe he is not ready for frogs. Better to do things with the right motivation and interest at the right time.


We have already worked out a trade for some frogs bud. I needed some fish tank supplies for a tadpole tank and he's letting me use his. So I am giving him some frogs in return. 

And yes, as soon as he is ready for frogs he will surely have some.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> If he has a viv ready for frogs and has no frogs, maybe he is not ready for frogs. Better to do things with the right motivation and interest at the right time.


im in no rush. ive just been waiting for the planets to align. ive been looking for thumbs specifically and the ones at the store, while nice, were not the ones i wanted. thankfully i found a local that is now a proud breeder. 

i have a reefer background and im very patient. it didnt seem right to just throw stuff into the tank w/o it "cycling" first. 

i have had all sorts of stuff sprout and die off since i built it. everything from molds/fungus to an infestation of gnats and a spider... it seems nice and established now, no life in there that isnt suppose to be. 

all my mosses are officially established. even got a nice fern going in there. 

if i do this again, i probably will find better clay. the kitty litter works, but its cracked a bit.... if i would have had a collapse with frogs in there, it would have been a waste of time and money.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

tadpole grow out tank. it will spend its first months in here. 

8x4x8 (aprox 1g)

peninsula style, clay and cork background. 

lighting will probably be LED once i get the right box for its build.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

i cant tell if that image loaded. im at work and the firewall does funny things sometimes. i cant look up "benchmade knives" with out it blowing a gasket...kershaw and other brands are ok though...idk.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

Not working for me but I've already seen the picture anyways lol


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I do not see the pic!


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

lol sorry. the work fire wall is hard core. 

updated 12'' zoomed tank pic. new plants courtesy of some local surfer dude









tadpole tank









tadpole in tank









now we wait again....sorry if i move too slow..


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Lovely both viv! Tadpole of what frog?


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Lovely both viv! Tadpole of what frog?


 R. Imitator "Varadero"


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

the zoomed tank is looking great!!


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Today I learned pulling a plant that has rooted to your clay wall is bad


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

DarkElvis said:


> Today I learned pulling a plant that has rooted to your clay wall is bad


YAY!

…..and so I may learn from your fail

Great looking tanks man! Keep up the good work and I'm sure the frogs will love it


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Starting to feel like I should have hit thr forums more heavily when I went with clay. If I revamp the tank I'm mixing in some redart clay. 

For the record I didn't have a clay fail. This was operator error. Despite some cracking near the top this stuff was on there. I easily used more Than 50lbs of force to yank that darn plant. 

Hopefully I can just patch the area 

Other lesson learned from this? Don't frog drunk


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Speaking of fail, let's see if I can post a pic from an iPad....

The little guy has nice fat front legs and is coloring right up nice. 
This is an led I built for this lil incubator....looks like I'm frying it but they aren't being driven very strong...May remove some optics. They are only running at about 0.5 watts each









The tank is so small I think most of the plants are a waste. Gonna pullem and just double the leaf litter


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Noticed your signature.... If your veradero tad is from mrzoggs its UE line. We did a trade a few months ago.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

scoy said:


> Noticed your signature.... If your veradero tad is from mrzoggs its UE line. We did a trade a few months ago.


Yep that is one of the tads  And yes you are right. Its UE. My mistake. I was confused with my cobalts which are Sean's line


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Noted. In laws are in town and they are slowing production down. I need to grab shuffle the tanks around. I got a 20l I've been meaning to move into for months


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

froglet! hes out of the water....now what do i do?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Very nice! 
Now feed him! Springtails. And make sure he eats.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

i got his little tank loaded with springs with more on the way....

when should i pull his water cup?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

For me right now, it is no longer needed. But make sure there is enough humidity and the temps are good.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

My tadpoles use their cups for a few days even after the come out of the water. It seems they are more comfortable in there. I would leave it in their until he stops making use of it. It's not hurting anything being in their right? Also, he might not eat for a couple days while he is still absorbing but just make sure it is crawling with springs. I might have some stunted fruit fly cultures to give you if you need them. Time for you to make an order for a fruit fly kit and so me repashy calcium+. Keep me updated on how he's doing. I like to search for poop just to make sure they are eating.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Mrzoggs tips are perfect!


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

yeah more cultures are on my list. the holidays are not helping. its side tracking all my little projects I got going.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

Just remember, you always have locals that could have some extra flies or bugs. It's better to ask for some then let the froggies starve


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

mrzoggs said:


> Just remember, you always have locals that could have some extra flies or bugs. It's better to ask for some then let the froggies starve


I honestly think I need to hit you up soon. im afraid if I harvest too much my cultures wont be able to bounce back. pay day is a long way away....

if this power supply holds up, ill have a fancy light for you


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

I got all the bugs you need. I need to make fly cultures tomorrow though since I have been slacking but you don't need those at the moment


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

this grow out "incubator" feels mighty small (8x4.5x8) 1.24 gal. I like how I can concentrate feedings however how long I can realistically keep the little guy in there? it was never intended to keep a froglet long. 

he currently is rocking nice chubby front legs and a beer belly. 

I have yet to see him eat.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

I don't usually see me thumbnails eat. My tincs however will chow down on 100 flies right in front of me. That's why I say, look for poop. He won't eat for a little while anyways. Since this is your first froglet, it is ok to worry hehe. As for your grow out tank, I have one filled with springs I can let you borrow. I used them as temp tanks and qt tanks for another pair I got. One of them I ended up not using so it is frog free and has been seeded heavily weeks ago. Just let me know after the holidays what you wanna do


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

I think I saw him eat last night. He seems more active at night. He hangs out in one corner that's teeming with springs. Scored a power supply btw recycling bin at best buy


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

Sweet. That is good. I'm sure you won't have any problems with him. Just keep the humidity up and keep some springs in there. Leaf litter to hide and make sure the temps are good and don't get too hot with the lights.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It's very hard to see a thumbnail eat. What you really see is hunting behavior. When you see them freeze, the strike is coming. All you typically see is that the frog barely twitches. That's it. Frog freezes, frog *barely* twitches, fly is gone. 
Additionally, many thumbnails simply won't hunt if they know you are watching. I like to feed and get out. That lets my shyer thumbnails eat in privacy, while the dusting powder is fresh.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

I have more of an issue w cold temps. Other than the LEDs no light is directly on the tank. He also hasn't gone back to the water in days. He's a climber for sure


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Das froog


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm pulling his cup in a couple days. I think he's done


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

Probably done if he hasn't used it. Take it out


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

This grow-out tank is pretty nice.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> This grow-out tank is pretty nice.


I like it too but realize why a lot of folks just use Rubbermaid containers. 

I'll def. use that method if I decided to get bigger frogs


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

A growout tank like this is perfect for the growth of frogs, but it is difficult for the cleaning and disinfection. It is also difficult to monitor the frogs, which can hide in layout like this. Rubbermaid or faunabox are more practical, although not too aesthetic.


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## Yuley (Feb 14, 2013)

Hey mate, Enjoyed reading your thread. 

Your viv looks excellent and its nice to hear your getting some natural growth in there. I don't think theres anything more pleasing than seeing some moss or liverwart grow from nowhere!

No rush. This is for you and no one else. It will be great to see the update when you gain the frogs you want and when your ready just remember to post those pics.

Lovely dog btw. What breed?


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

DarkElvis said:


> i try to support the local mom and pop shops in my area.....even if i only spend 2-3 bucks i try not to leave empty handed.
> 
> they have good looking frogs, some thumbs but they are kinda out of the price range that keeps me from getting in trouble....
> 
> ...


Haha I read the fish store that sells guns and knew that you were in my area, what store sells springtails and isopods around VA Beach? I'd rather buy local if possible.


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

Pet paradise on va beach blvd. I went to animal jungle yesterday looking for feeders and they were out of everything. I was wondering how they even feed their frogs. When I got to pet paradise, (which is right around the corner) they had flies, crickets, dubias, isopods, springtails, flour beetles, I think some bean beetles, and probably other stuff I didn't see.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Yuley said:


> Hey mate, Enjoyed reading your thread.
> 
> Your viv looks excellent and
> 
> Lovely dog btw. What breed?


Thanks, I've found through my years with salt and freshwater aquariums only bad things happen fast. 

I've got one thumbnail in there. Maybe 2 more lined up. 

That pup is a boxer mix of some sort.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Houston, we have frog in tank. I repeat we have frog in tank. Pics to come...


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)




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## hamz77 (Mar 17, 2013)

Congats! what is the sex if you know?


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

hamz77 said:


> Congats! what is the sex if you know?


It's way to young to sex right now.


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

am i crazy or did all my pictures on here get deleted?


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Looks like it..


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