# 110 gallon Archerfish Paludarium - Frogs viable?



## thepotoo (Nov 13, 2011)

I've got this 110 gallon tank I'm setting up to be a paludarium for freshwater archerfish and hopefully something else. Water volume is 50 gallons in the tank, 10-12 inches deep. The land portion will be 1' wide (variable, about half the tank) x 2' high x 4' long.

I can't seem to find information on Darts being kept in a setup like this anywhere. Questions:

Will the water pH of 7.6 be hard on them?
Will the water temperature of 78 F be an issue?
Can the land temp be kept low enough with just a fan?
Smaller frogs will be prey for archers, probably anything less than 1/2 inch. What species would do well in this setup?

I've seen frogs kept in paludariums in other threads, but never with archers. Does anyone have experience with this?


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Honestly darts would probably not be the best choice of frogs. That's too much water and the fish could certainly pose a threat as well. Not too mention that's a small portion of land for any frogs that would be big enough to not be eaten by the fish. Not trying to bash the idea by any means! I actually think it sounds like an amazing concept but you would certainly be better off with some species of tree frog!! I suppose the only problem I see is potential breeding with the frogs. Eggs and tads will undoubtedly be eaten by the fish. With good ol' research you should be able to figure out what to do. I'll be sure to keep up with this build. Best of luck!


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Sorry I misread, the land portion would be enough for the frogs!! But the other precautions still apply.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Archers could eat the darts. You also need to keep them brackish. Instead of darts add some mudskippers and semi-aquatic small crabs.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

IMO this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Any dart frog could quite easily drown in 10 - 12 inches of water. Not to mention the predatory fish. What were you planning on feeding the Archers? Crickets? Large crickets could injure your frogs as well. It's probably best to think of some alternative plan. Perhaps some nice fire belly toads that would take advantage of your water feature.


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## thepotoo (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate them.

These are Toxotes Microlepis, true freshwater archers, they cannot be kept with salt above 1.005, too low for mudskippers. Also, plants are not viable with salt. Otherwise I would certainly go with a brackish setup.

I found several threads which said no one had ever actually observed a frog drowning. I've also seen numerous builds with frogs and fish (albeit from people with more frog keeping experience than me), so I think as long as the frogs can escape from the water, it shouldn't be an issue.

HOWEVER, the issue of the archers eating the frogs is pretty serious. These archers get to be about 5-6", and can eat fish up to 1" (although they generally go with insects). If there's any risk of them eating the frogs, this plan is off. I cannot find the slightest bit of information on keeping archers with frogs. I realize archers aren't the most commonly kept fish, but it seems like someone would have kept them with frogs at some point.

I was planning on feeding the archers cichlid food, and the occasional flightless fruit fly or young cricket. Fire belly toads could harm the archers, and therefore aren't really viable. I may ask around on some reptile boards, to see if any species of lizard would tolerate that much water (but I fear the answer may be no).


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

thepotoo said:


> Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate them.
> 
> These are Toxotes Microlepis, true freshwater archers, they cannot be kept with salt above 1.005, too low for mudskippers. Also, plants are not viable with salt. Otherwise I would certainly go with a brackish setup.
> 
> ...



To address a few of your comments:
I've never burned my eyes out by looking directly at the sun, nor have I ever witnessed a drowning frog, however I'm not willing to take a chance experiencing either event. Especially when both are avoidable by using common sense. Frogs are not more or less expendable than archers. Yet you probably wouldn't house that 5" - 6" archer with a cichlid that get 14" right? Why? Because the cichlid would eat the archer, the same thing applies to dart frogs. Maybe there is a reason no one has kept archers with frogs, maybe it's just a bad idea.

The only lizards that might appreciate a fair amount of water would be perhaps a Mertens Monitor, but it would eat the archers. A basilisk or water dragon, but they would need additional height as they are pretty arboreal. Other possibilities might be a caiman lizard or a Chinese crocodile lizard.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Anoles or certain arboreal geckos such as day geckos should be fine, provided they have enough land and vegetation to climb on.


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## thepotoo (Nov 13, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford, that was exactly the reply I was looking for. I'll reevaluate Dart frogs some time in the future for other tanks.

I'm going to look more seriously at geckos and other lizards for this setup.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

thepotoo, cool. I just wanted you to think about the fact that dart frogs aren't accessories to complete your archerfish tank. They are indeed deserving of a habitat of their own that staisifes their needs. If you had turned the question around and said I'm looking for fish to put in my dart frog tank I promise no one would have suggested archers. Not that they aren't cool fish because they are very cool. One of the coolest tanks I've ever seen was in a pet store and they had a large probably 50 gal or better hex tank set up. I sat there for 1/2 hour and watched two archers spitting water at full grown crickets on the branches over hanging the water. It was quite a show.


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## thepotoo (Nov 13, 2011)

Yeah, I wouldn't dream of keeping something if I couldn't provide a perfect habitat for it. Hence, no frogs today.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Do you know necessarily have to have an animal in the abovewater portion? You could get a really nice display by just focusing on setting up the fish as well as possible and getting some cool plants to grow above water. A riparium style setup would be the easiest way to do that and there are some really fantastic plants that would be well-suited to that. 

_Cyrtosperma jonstoni_i is a good example of a plant that would grow well like that and could make your abovewater portion plenty engaging...


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## aberreef (Feb 20, 2012)

Never kept them, so not sure if they'd be suitable or not, but would Waxy Monkey frogs be suitable?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

aberreef said:


> Never kept them, so not sure if they'd be suitable or not, but would Waxy Monkey frogs be suitable?


I would not suggest waxies for multiple reasons. More Geographicly appropriate species would include dumpy tree frogs, white lipped tree frogs, Tokay geckos, skunk geckos, and emerald tree skinks.


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## FRISCHFROGS (Jan 15, 2012)

Darts would be the oil and the Archers would be water! 
Oil n water do not mix.
Archers do not come from South America or Central America so they do not mix in nature. I feel they will Not mix captivity.
It is a disaster waiting to happen.
Rethink your idea.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Don't know if you saw this, and I don't know what he has on the "land area" but even if it's just for inspiration:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52841-300gal-paludarium-project.html

And he has some videos of his archer fish shooting at pellets on the side glass, pretty cool!


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## thepotoo (Nov 13, 2011)

Yes, I saw that, it's pretty inspirational. Lots of people on that thread were suggesting frogs, which gave me the idea.

He ended up with nothing in his land area. I might go the same route.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

mossy frogs might be large enough to keep in a setup like you are describing. just to mention something you may have already noticed, not alot of people on this forum like mixing anything with anything. keep us informed on the build.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Curious where you are going to get the freshwater archers? I have not seen them for sale. Either way, go for a bigger frog. Perhaps mossys.


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## thepotoo (Nov 13, 2011)

My LFS gets them in sometimes, and can order a larger group for me. I've looked at them and confirmed that they are indeed Toxotes microlepis (spots on tail are not connected to spots on body; smaller spots on body in between stripes).

Right now, I'm leaning towards Day Geckos, a Green Basilisk, or nothing. I know very little about reptiles (haven't owned one in almost a decade), so I've got a lot of research to do.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

thepotoo said:


> My LFS gets them in sometimes, and can order a larger group for me. I've looked at them and confirmed that they are indeed Toxotes microlepis (spots on tail are not connected to spots on body; smaller spots on body in between stripes).
> 
> Right now, I'm leaning towards Day Geckos, a Green Basilisk, or nothing. I know very little about reptiles (haven't owned one in almost a decade), so I've got a lot of research to do.


Basilisks can and will hunt the fish especially when the fish only have 50 gallons of water to hide in.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I had a couple day geckos drown in a deeper water enclosure.



thepotoo said:


> My LFS gets them in sometimes, and can order a larger group for me. I've looked at them and confirmed that they are indeed Toxotes microlepis (spots on tail are not connected to spots on body; smaller spots on body in between stripes).
> 
> Right now, I'm leaning towards Day Geckos, a Green Basilisk, or nothing. I know very little about reptiles (haven't owned one in almost a decade), so I've got a lot of research to do.


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## the_deeb (Apr 21, 2008)

Hi thepotoo,
The 300g archerfish paludarium that oneshot linked to earlier was mine, so hopefully I can offer some relevant insights.

First off, archerfish are awesome! I've kept various kinds of fish for a long time, and that paludarium was definitely the most fun setup I've ever had. I was going to point out that you make sure to get T. microlepis for a freshwater setup (or T. blythii if you have very deep pockets) but it sounds like you know that already.

In my opinion, you should try to get at least 5 or 6 because their dynamics are much more interesting in a school - the more the better. That being said, it sounds like you're only going to have 4'X1'X1' body of water, which isn't very much. When you design your tank, try to maximize the water area - e.g., consider making the land part an overhang, so that there's additional water underneath it. 

Arhcers (even microlepis) do get quite large and are powerful swimmers and jumpers. They also need VERY clean water - I found that slight drops in water quality would cause them to lose their appetites or develop cloudy eyes. They also seemed to be very sensitive to chlorine/chloramines in tap water, so be sure to use a good dechlorinator during water changes.

As you know, I decided not to have any animals in the terrestrial portion of my tank. Once the archers settled in, they were very enthusiastic about spitting at anything that caught their attention. They could easily shoot a powerful stream at an object 2-3' away and they were very accurate, particularly if something was moving. It seemed that any animal that moved about was likely to be frequently getting hit with water. 

With small frogs and insects that would almost certainly mean getting knocked into the water and being eaten (the archers are really aggressive eaters and will frequently lunge and bite at things that were too large for them to swallow). But even with larger animals I thought it would probably be quite annoying and distressing to be constantly getting spat at. 

I personally agree with hydrophyte's suggestion - do a nice planting job on the emersed portion of the tank, include some interesting plants and the archers by themselves should provide sufficient activity and entertainment. You can periodically release some insects, which can serve as temporary inhabitants 

Hope that helps.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Emerald tree boa!!!! No need for land portion, just branches. How tall is the tank?

Jake


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## thepotoo (Nov 13, 2011)

the deeb! Thank you so much for this, I'm a huge fan of yours!

I was planning on a school of 6 archers, I have a 15 gallon sump under the main tank for additional water volume. Toxotes blythii can not, unfortunately, be bought for love nor money where I live, so microlepis it is. I was planning on having the entire area under the land section open (accessible only to the water via caves). The 4'x1'x1' measurement just applied to the land section. The archers would be the only inhabitants, except perhaps a couple small loaches who will move to some of my other tanks when they get too big.



> They also need VERY clean water - I found that slight drops in water quality would cause them to lose their appetites or develop cloudy eyes. They also seemed to be very sensitive to chlorine/chloramines in tap water, so be sure to use a good dechlorinator during water changes.


This right here is gold. It's always good to hear from someone who actually kept these fish. I've kept plenty of sensitive fish (and shrimp) successfully, so I'll be careful with the water changes.

I'll probably go with just plants in the top section.

For the sake of completeness and anyone reading this thread in the future: 

I've read on many other forums that Day Geckos can drown. Even in just their water bowl. Some people have said that Anoles would be viable for such a setup (although I'm pretty sure archers would eat them), and the Mossy Frog was recommended by a couple people here. I'm not going with them because: 1) they're nocturnal and I'd never see them in a densely planted tank, and 2), as the deep pointed out, they'd be constantly subjected to jets of water.

There is one issue with the Water Dragon or Basilisk idea (besides the little thing about them eating fish): They defecate in their water. This would increase the bioload by a massive, massive amount. I wouldn't consider keeping them with any aquatic creature without daily 20-30% water changes and 8-10x tank turnover from the filter due to the nitrates. An automatic water change system would be pretty much mandatory.

jacobi, it's possible many snake species are viable, however, I'm pretty sure I would be kicked out if I tried to keep snakes in here, so I haven't even considered them.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I've kept mossys in similar tanks and they are almost always viable sleeping/partially sleeping have submerged or even fully submerged in the water. Sometimes they are on land, but still pretty viable. They become active at night, but they are good subjects, even for daytime displays. 

I've had anoles drown, too. Unless it is a semi-aquatic/aquatic species, which aren't really available. There are croc lizards! Well...if your pocket book is deep enough.



thepotoo said:


> the Mossy Frog was recommended by a couple people here. I'm not going with them because: 1) they're nocturnal and I'd never see them in a densely planted tank, and 2), as the deep pointed out, they'd be constantly subjected to jets of water.


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