# Thumbnails... groups or pairs?



## Guest (Dec 10, 2004)

It seems like a few breeders are starting to keep their thumbnails in groups. How big of tanks are you keeping a group in and how many frogs? And are most of you just allowing the tads to be raised in the tanks? I have been thinking of trying the group tank, but wanted to see what ratios, what frogs, tank size, and if froglet numbers have gone up or down?

thanks,


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

*thumbnails groups*

Hey Ben! I keep my thumbs in both, pairs and groups. I have a pair of Fants in one tank, breeding and doing well. I have another tank with 5 (not sure of the ratio) and they are also breeding and doing really good. We have had the 5 set up in an 18 gal tall for about 4 months, and so far so good. I keep all my vents in groups, as well as my retics, and imitators. I got some intermedius from Patrick about 5-6 weeks ago, and put the 5 of them in an 18 gal also, and they are doing really well. 

I think an important part of keeping them in groups is a lot of food, and lots of leaf litter. I got a box of magnolia leaves from Josh and they are working out great in my tanks. I am even using them in shoeboxes with juvi's instead of plant clippings. 

To answer your question about eggs/tads, I pull them when i see them.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

AZDR, how large of a group do you keep your retics in? Is there any competion? Do they breed for you, and what is the sex ratio? Thanks.

Jordan


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Eventually when I get the numbers I hope to have mine mostly in groups. This is partially advice I got from Yeager (something about a bunch in a 45 breeding better than pairs or something) plus its a lot of social behavior to watch.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2004)

I started my D. imitator breeding (this was way back) with 4 of them in a 50 cube. After the first year, I would be pulling eggs twice a week, and still didn't get them all. I experimented with keeping two pairs in a 10 vert, but had very little to no breeding. I also tried a pair in a 90, and got more breeding than the 10's, but still not the same degree as the colony. I think when I finally broke that tank down there was something like two dozen adults in it and a half dozen tadpoles as well in the mud of the bottom. I would always go with a larger tank with colonial situations for the small guys. There's just too much fun behavior to miss, and it seems in the wild they're in such large numbers anyway-- it only seems natural.
j


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

Jordan-

I currently have 4 retics in the 18 gal. I have not had any breeding from this group yet, and I am pretty sure it is a 2.2. I did have to pull a 5th one out, it was a lot smaller when I got them, and keep that one seperate until it's fully grown. 

My retics that i had breeding 6-7 years ago were kept in 3 or 4 in a 10 gallon tank.

Thanks


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Just a note of caution on retics in groups, I had two adult breeding pairs that were separate for years. After some time both pairs stopped producing. So I decided to try 2.2 in a 10 gallon to see if I could stimulate breeding again. It definitely got them going again however the females fought consistently and after a couple of weeks I separated them, only to have one of the females die soon after, presumably from all the stress. I know of several others that have 2.2 in 10 gallons that have been that way for years with no problems. The difference is that theirs were all raised together. I have since put the lone male back with the other pair and they have been fine as 2.1 for some time now, though the 2 males now get into it every now and again, but nothing like the females.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I was just talking with someone about this the other day. 

With vents, I really don't know if it matters, either way, they breed so often and quantities either way you will have enough viable young.

With intermedius I have a group (2.3 in a 20 XH) & a pair. Although the group might outproduce the pair in quantity, the pair produce more viable tads. 

This is not always the case, but since I have moved the group into another room they have slowed down. Now I am entertaining the idea of splitting the group up into pairs to see what will happen. If I do, I will let you know how everything goes.

melis


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2004)

Wow, didn't think I would see smaller tanks being used.
I am working on a custom designed tanks that are going to run around 50 gallons each and fit on the wire shelves. 
Before when I tried to keep my imitator in groups (happened to be 3 males) I never noticed any fighting, but one would never put on weight. However like Robb said, it seemed to help when they were raised together as apposed to adults being put together. I guess I am going to have to do make a few trial tanks and see what results I get. I don't want end up with a bunch of big tanks I can't use.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

It is always good to do a test tank before making a large order for custom tanks. I keep my thumbs in pairs except for my intermedius which I think are 1.2. I use horizontal 10's for them.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2004)

Well I am not sure if I am going to order the tanks or just make them.
Depends on time and how much an acrylic customs would cost. I try and keep all thumb pairs in 20 high vert tanks. I have kept pairs in 10 horizontal, and vert tanks. In the 20 verts they are so much more active and overall more pleasing to watch. The only way I will group frogs is in a 30 gallon or bigger. I worry about the frog's stress level in packed tanks, even with some people having luck.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2004)

I agree. Some may think of it as "wasted space" but I like them in big vivs also.I have also had imitators in 10verts, regular 10's and 20 verts and can say they are more active in larger vivs.
I do have a group in a 20 vert now,1.3.1, but plan on sending some off so I eventually have a 1.2. I had tried to introduce a female into an established pair and the females fought for hours so I also agree if they are raisied together, groups will work out.
Mark W.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

My fantasticus bred when they are in groups and barely when they are in pairs. However, I also have lost eggs (most likely got eaten by another female) when they are in group, so needs to be monitored often.

SB


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Ben,

How is your experiment going with groups? I have some questions for anyone with some insight.

1. If doing a group. what seems to be the best sex ratio? 2.3 female heavy or 3.2 male heavy or 2.2?

2. Do fantasticus produce male heavy?

3. What about Imitators?

4. Red Amys?

5. Bastimentos Pumilio?

6. Panguana Lamasi?

7. Intermedius?

8. Retics?

9. Vents?


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## booga (Sep 19, 2004)

I cant say much about the rest but 2.2 on the vents is good. I think there are people who suggest that vents do better in groups of 5-6. I dont see why the colony couldnt be female heavy. Male vents never shut up! 

jason


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## Reptiledan (Nov 23, 2004)

*Imitator*

Just to add to the thread, I currently keep 1.3 imitators together in a 10 gal vert, they lay eggs on a consistant basis. 
I tried doing the same with unrelated intermedius and fants, with no luck the small group of 5 and 4 respectively was reduced to a pr of each in a couple months time.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2005)

Hey David and all,

I haven't had time to set up any real groups of my own yet, because I am building larger tanks for groups first. Each group tank is going to be just over 83 gallons! They are going to be taller than I originally planed. Most of the groups I am going to work with are going to be thumbnails (this doesn't include pumilio).

I am looking at groups of 8-10 frogs. Most male's seem to be fighty so going to try and stay more female heavy, but it is really going to be dependent on how the frogs react to each other. Now most people say fantasticus should be kept in pairs, but I have found out that people who give the frogs* a lot of room *and in groups seem to have very good luck with breeding. *Groups need space* I have had nothing but problems, with thumbnails, when I keep more than a pair in a 10 gallon. *I try and give all my pairs vert 20's at least!* The frogs are more active and seem to be happier, when they have the room. 

As far as frogs producing heavy to one sex, I used to think that more males imitator are produced, but I have produced more females so far( but its very close) I don't know why and don't have a reason, but I am starting to look more closely at what I am doing. Hopefully by this fall I should have a little more insight on the groups.


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