# Any way to tell pumilio have laid?



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Just wondering if their is any distinct behavior to tell if a pumilio pair have laid-even if the eggs are out of sight?

I took a female out of QT and put her in to a tank with a male. He's been calling his little fool head off and following her around several times per day(mainly morning and afternoon). She will sometimes go towards him, then he will move away, etc. They both sleep in the only brom in the tank but in different axils.

Will their be any chance in behavior if eggs have been laid? No more calling?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

check the brom axils for tads or film canisters, sometimes when they do lay in my experience they wont' call as often either. and 2 months later you will find a little surprise hopping around


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

When my pumilio are taking care of tadpoles,i do not see them too much in the lower reaches of viv ,and male calling is at a minimal for a few weeks,then one day -froglets emerge!


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## lookitsadam (Jul 1, 2013)

I have yet to see eggs or tads in my pumilio tank but when first introduced the male called day and night for weeks while chasing the female. Then all of a sudden he stopped. I haven't seen or heard him call for about two months now so I'm hoping there is a tad ready to morph out somewhere in there


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I'm hoping to be able to watch them actually raise the tads. I put all the vials up close to the front of the tank on the floor in hopes of being able to watch the process-but they don't seem to like this much and prefer the bromeliad. We'll see what happens.


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## lookitsadam (Jul 1, 2013)

I tried putting some film cans up close but they never used them. As soon as I moved them towards the back the male loved to hang out in them. The female however is usually in the lower axials of the broms


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It's possible that the female isn't showing interest because she hadn't acclimated to the new environment. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

My new escudo male still calls and the female hangs out in the broms taking care of tadpoles. I think they all have their own personality so hard to say but if you find her go to the exact same spots in broms she's probably feeding tadpoles 

~N8


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Do you guys think that colors of pumillio could affect production-seeing as females do show mate selection? My female is red/orange my male is a more gold color.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Do you guys think that colors of pumillio could affect production-seeing as females do show mate selection? My female is red/orange my male is a more gold color.


Not really since your not giving her a choice. If there isn't any other option then it is pretty moot when it comes to the frogs. In some higher vertebrates like some parrots and primates you can get a refusal to mate on this basis but it's going to be uncommon in frogs. I would expect to see Coolige effect if that was the case but that is generally restricted to mammals. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Found eggs yesterday-as if to stick it in my face I caught the female with them on the most prominent bromeliad leaf in the viv right up to the glass-haha.

Now to see if they are fertile.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Reading on amphibiaweb apparently the male provides parental care for the eggs. I've so far only seen the female come back and pee on them. I'm wondering if in captivity dynamics are changed since food is not an issue the female can devote her time to parental care rather than tanking up and the male might be devoting his time to pursuing more mating opportunities

(no, the calling has not abated one bit-if anything he seems even more persistent now!)


Horrible pictures, but 


Dad(yellow/green with blue hands and feet)


Pair(Mom is orange/red with blue legs and hands)


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Looks like 3 of the 5 eggs are developing!

I may potentially have a move coming up-so I'm wondering if these guys might be doomed-looking at threads it seems people have mixed success with parents taking care of offspring after being moved.

It would be a multi-day-cross country drive towards NJ.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

No you're fine...I just moved too


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

How did you do it? I'm thinking of putting the frogs in vials with stoppers in the viv...not sure about any tadpoles. I will have to determine the temps to determine how to keep everyone in their ok temperature range during the drive of course too. Thinking large styros big enough to fit the cages with lots of gel paks may be a good bet-and taking them into a motel room when I stay in one.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

I only moved a mile away in the city we live in. But I kept the frogs in the tank. I would not take the frogs or tadpoles out of the tank. I stopped misting a few days before the move so water in the broms wasn't so high. This will lessen the risk of any sloshing around accidentally throwing a tadpole out of a brom. How far are you moving?


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

I kept the tanks in the back seat of the car. Just keep them in the car so you can turn the heat or a/c on.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

PDFanatic: I have a truck so pretty limited in car space. Might be able to put one in there. In the past I just put everything in the back and covered it or stopped and watered everyone down. Live things ride in a white side mount toolbox that stays cooler than the inside of the car-but no tank would fit in there.

Of the 3 fertile eggs, one tadpole died partway through, one has dissapeared(picked up?), and one is left waiting. I can't see any tadpoles in the only brom in the tank or in the vials-but I bet they can hide really well.

I can see how people think the male calls the female to pick up the tadpoles though!


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Yeah tadpoles are hard to find. They can be in the main axil of the brom or on the second row of leaves that hold water. They will put tadpoles anywhere there is standing water. Sounds to me like you will only have one tadpole almost guaranteed to survive! But hey its better than none considering the circumstances!


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

So all tadpoles are gone. A new clutch of 5 eggs again has appeared.

Has anyone out there used pvc endcaps for tadpole deposition sites? I put in a small one with them and caught them female today checking it out. That is a good sign since they rarely use the test tubes-seems them being clear causes issues.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Frogs will use anything as a deposition site as long as they are comfortable with it. See if they have used it within a couple weeks or so. Otherwise try a handful of different things. They will pick something they like. Remember just because one pair likes using a certain object for deposition doesn't mean another pair will use the same thing! All frogs are different...who knows how they choose what they like, but all frogs are different.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Looks like all 5 of the second batch are fertile and developing well so far!


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## flybyferns (Sep 27, 2011)

I go by the calling behavior. His "feed this tad" call is different. Once the tads have some size on them I see the water 'wigglge' in the broms when I touch the latch. 

My breeding O Pumilio 'black jeans' will not go anywhere near another container; in any location. I tried white and black film canisters and clear glass candle votives - no go. I gave up. Now I have to keep the broms healthy......I really don't like broms. 

this tad just OOW when I took this photo last week

It makes your day  for sure 

https://www.facebook.com/ferns.frogs/posts/468745789922967


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## flybyferns (Sep 27, 2011)

Dendrobait said:


> Looks like all 5 of the second batch are fertile and developing well so far!


Congratulations !
Now you get to build a grow out enclosure.........


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flybyferns said:


> I go by the calling behavior. His "feed this tad" call is different.]


It should be different as pumilio don't have anything to do with calling the females to feed the tadpoles. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

So all 5 tadpoles are just sitting on the leaf. The female comes and looks at them every so often but has not picked any up. I'm sure something will happen within the next few days.

I only have 1 bromeliad and a pup in the tank. I wonder how many tadpoles could be put in? At least two, but probably no more than 3-4. I'm hoping without additional broms the female will be forced to use the pvc endcaps.

Ed: I have noticed some different call durations etc. from the male. Can't be sure what is going on. Do you think the male communicates at all to the female in regards to his care for the eggs? I'd imagine if he was removed and the eggs watered with a pipette every day the female would come back and pick up the tads regardless as she also has remembered where the clutch is.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> So all 5 tadpoles are just sitting on the leaf. The female comes and looks at them every so often but has not picked any up. I'm sure something will happen within the next few days.
> 
> I only have 1 bromeliad and a pup in the tank. I wonder how many tadpoles could be put in? At least two, but probably no more than 3-4. I'm hoping without additional broms the female will be forced to use the pvc endcaps.


It's possible the female won't transport the second clutch as it may be more tadpoles than she can readily feed. In the wild, females don't produce further clutches for fertilization while they are feeding tadpoles. This could be due to a number of factors ranging from caloric availability or distance from males calling sites to the tadpole deposition sites or some combination of these factors (I'd vote for this based on anecdotal information). 



Dendrobait said:


> Ed: I have noticed some different call durations etc. from the male. Can't be sure what is going on. Do you think the male communicates at all to the female in regards to his care for the eggs? I'd imagine if he was removed and the eggs watered with a pipette every day the female would come back and pick up the tads regardless as she also has remembered where the clutch is.


I'm going to put this in the possible category but keep in mind that no one has demonstrated that the females can recognize the call of a specific male. One of the things people often forget about these guys, they have surprisingly good olfactory abilities so it's possible that she is following olfactory cues indicating the eggs have hatched... or both.. 

If you can get copies see
Forester, Don C., and Anthony Wisnieski. "The significance of airborne olfactory cues to the recognition of home area by the dart-poison frog Dendrobates pumilio." Journal of herpetology (1991): 502-504.

Baugh, Julia R., and Don C. Forester. "Prior residence effect in the dart-poison frog, Dendrobates pumilio." Behaviour (1994): 207-224.

Some comments 

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Dendrobait said:


> PDFanatic: I have a truck so pretty limited in car space. Might be able to put one in there. In the past I just put everything in the back and covered it or stopped and watered everyone down. Live things ride in a white side mount toolbox that stays cooler than the inside of the car-but no tank would fit in there.


Just to back up a minute, regarding your move that will take several days driving. I would absolutely pack the frogs in deli containers/Tupperware (with air holes) small enough to fit inside a cooler that can fin INSIDE your truck. Take the cooler into your hotel room or anytime you are out of the car for long. It would also be wise to bring some cool/phase 22 packs in case of a breakdown or something. If your plants or eggs die, it's one thing, but that is a really nice looking pair of pumilio!


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

srrrio: Yes I definitely will get a medical cooler for the frogs-and phase panels for sure! But depending on where I go invariably the toolbox has proven the safest place for animals...even with the AC running the passenger compartment can still be crazy hot. The toolbox stays at least 10degrees cooler-esp. during sunny weather. I'm not sure why-I think part of it has to due with the way it is mounted means that it gets constant airflow while the car is moving and also no windows. I would bring all frogs etc. to wherever I'd stay for the night. The smaller vivs(such as this one) I would probably bring to the hotel as well. You are definitely right it is better to lose tadpoles than frogs. 

Unfortunately Ed you were right. Two of the tadpoles disappeared but the other three were dead on the leaf today. I'm not sure if the two were transported or fell off. Do you suppose lack of suitable deposition sites could discourage them from transport? If they insist on it I may get a few more broms or black film cans so they can rear tads in seclusion.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

And another clutch of what looks like 6 down in the rosette of the brom. Lets see if they get parenting right this time!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> And another clutch of what looks like 6 down in the rosette of the brom. Lets see if they get parenting right this time!


Did she finish feeding the one's already transported? If she hasn't then she technically is already doing it right.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed: No idea. I haven't seen any tadpoles transported so I cannot confirm if she has tads she is currently feeding. I strongly suspect she has at least 2 after seeing this clutch dry up on the leaf(very visible-no missing them!)-unless the tadpoles managed to squirm off the leaf and fall into the leaf litter.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Update,

Observed female pick up and drop off a tad for the first time today! She was giving the tadpole the choice between two pvc endcaps on the floor of the tank(wonder what influences whether the tadpole hops off. Both caps were empty but after dunking herself for about 3 minutes in the first one, she head over to the second, then took a lap around the tank, and then I came back and the tad was in the 2nd cap). Nice as this tadpole is in plain view and I will be able to observe its development.

I also noticed another tadpole in the central axil of the main bromeliad. Both look to be more or less the same size. So at the very least she's got two tadpoles in the water-and maybe more. One tadpole left on the leaf, and another clutch of 5 that are all fertile.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

It is nice to have the tadpole in the white PVC cap to look at it all the time. It is surprisingly active-I was expecting them to just lay around all the time but every so often it is swimming a few laps in the cap.

Also, I haven't observed the deposition of feeder eggs but it must have happened as this tadpole is now 2x the size of its neglected but ever hopeful for a ride sibling.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

So currently we have at least 4 surviving tadpoles. The center cup and a side axil have at least one(maybe more, and I wonder if they can swim between these two), one tadpole in a film can, and one tadpole in a PVC endcap. The rest of the axils on the brom don't seem to hold enough water for tads-but they could be down there. I hope she keeps using the endcaps as the white background makes it easy to observe the tadpole eating feeder eggs and just doing its thing.

3 eggs were laid about a week ago and are now ready to be transported as well.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hope all these updates are not too tedious! I'm just having a ball watching these guys. Consider this a public journal

I looks like at least 6 or 7 tadpoles are being actively reared. Their may be nine total. 

2 tadpole should be in the brom, though I haven't seen them in a while. 3 tadpoles are now in PVC caps, one is quite a bit younger than the rest and was deposited sometime in the last few days. I'm not sure where this one came from-possibly the clutch of 3 eggs in the smaller brom. 1 in a film canister, and 1 in a glass vial. 

2(poss 3, depending on the origins of the smallest pvc cap tadpole) tadpoles are also in the axil of a small brom pup. They were from the clutch previous that was laid there and mentioned above but they were never transported and all squirmed into the water. I do not think they are being fed-they all just slid into the water there and do not change in size much. 

I experimented with pipetting one out and sticking it in a PVC cap where the female hung out a lot. It would beg when she arrived but the female would not really respond. I actually have yet to see the female provision any tadpoles yet, but occasionally I catch her making rounds and can observe the tadpoles begging behavior.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't think their too tedious as I read them but I'm only one person. 

If you want to try something, try placing the abandoned tadpole in with another tadpole... 

The failure to feed isn't surprising given the documented behavior in the wild. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Do you know the probable outcome of doing this? You've piqued my curiosity.




Ed said:


> If you want to try something, try placing the abandoned tadpole in with another tadpole...
> 
> 
> Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

aspidites73 said:


> Do you know the probable outcome of doing this? You've piqued my curiosity.


I have yet to see it discussed somewhere (but I bet someone has tried it and just not talked about it). 

On a bet I would suspect the following outcome is that the froglets morph out fine but small (assuming the nutritional status is fine with the adults), either due to food competition or the female only provisioning for a specific period of time or both. 

The real variable here that would interesting to learn is if there is a set period of time that the female will feed a tadpole/tadpoles. If there isn't then it opens up a whole other surrogacy option for the hobby. In effect, one could serially rotate tadpoles into a specific spot and have the female care for them. In the hobby it's pretty clear based on the number of clutches laid for fertilization that the females are able to produce eggs for long periods of time. It's just if there are other ways to better the hobby in that manner. 

Or the OP could just pull clutches that were laid to be fertilized remove the jelly from the eggs and feed the tadpole the fertile eggs to bring it to metamorphosis. I would suspect that excess eggs could be rinsed and stored in the refrigerator for several days without damaging nutritional content. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Ed,
Yes, I was not expecting the small tadpole to be fed in the formerly empty cap-but I have read some interesting threads on surrogate pumilio adopting tadpoles as well. Captivity could really change things and result in odd behaviors(such as tadpoles mistakenly hitching rides on males or froglets). I should have left the experiment to go for a few more days but I thought of the possibility of the female feeding all of them in the brom pup axil(may be 2 or 3 in there anyway!). One thing I wonder is if tadpoles are ever transported more than once-it seems this is a possibility with Ranitomeya. 

A funny thing is that I frequently observe both the male and the female soaking. I don't think the male shows any preference but I noticed the female spends a lot of time in empty pvc caps compared to those with tadpoles in them. Maybe trying to get some time away from her begging offspring to just hydrate or rest. 


I considered putting a small tadpole in with a big tadpole. I thought of a few possibilities

1. Big tadpole eats smaller tadpole. This would not be a bad outcome considering the smaller tadpole would likely have starved anyway

2. Due to stress both tadpoles do poorly.

3. both tadpoles grow, possibly at a slower rate.

I couldn't open the complete set of papers but apparently begging behavior is an honest signal of need-so a female's egg provisioning is based at least partly on the intensity of the begging of the tadpole which is an accurate determination of how hungry the tadpole is. Don't know what having an additional tadpole would do to that. Would that heighten the tactile stimulation to the point that the female would provide 2x as many eggs to the tadpoles? 

Several surrogacy ideas based on the literature and my observations.

1. If begging is an honest signal one should be able to steal feeder eggs from one tadpole and give them to another. The female should feed more to the first tadpole to quiet it down.

2. if a tadpole is replaced within 10 days with another tadpole irrespective of age or parentage it will be reared. One could swap tadpoles nearing metamorphosis-say, who are about to pop front limbs and thus will no longer be feeding with younger tadpoles that were abandoned. 2 tadpoles could also be rotated with each other...

I have yet to see any additional fertile egg clutches laid. I have observed what appear to be feeder eggs in the caps with tadpoles-but haven't observed the tadpoles definitely eating them-they do appear to nibble around and grab them and then I come back a few hours later and sometimes they are noticeably smaller/gone. Looking at the time period on these posts I should be seeing legs soon with the larger tadpoles.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Here is the tank-it could definitely use a couple more large leaved plants unless the Monstera decides to go nutso. Can't see the frogs here-they are chasing some fruitflies up the background but the male is usually hanging out ontop of the cork slab and the female spends a lot of time in the front looking for microfauna. Ignore the horrible moss mix application-can't really change that at this point. (some of it is actually starting to green and grow in a few spots where it isn't green blobs)


The round circles correspond to tadpole and their relative sizes. Their is a pvc cap directly behind the nut pod in case anyone is wondering. I decided to move one tadpole from the brom pup where their were two small tadpoles into the pvc cap with a bigger tadpole. 


The tadpole in the PVC cap on the left, one of the older ones.


The tadpole in the clear glass vial in the front, which is intermediate in age/size.

~Joseph See


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Hello Ed,
> Yes, I was not expecting the small tadpole to be fed in the formerly empty cap-but I have read some interesting threads on surrogate pumilio adopting tadpoles as well.


In the studies I've read, there was no kinship recognition from the female to the tadpoles. They would feed any tadpole that begged in an appropriate manner provided it was in the same spot as the one they deposited. If the tadpole was subsequently moved to another depositions site by as little as an inch or more, it was then abandoned. 

In addition, the tadpoles did not discriminate between depositing females and other frogs of the appropriate size regardless of the sex of that frog. They would show begging behaviors. This is why some people have used other pumilio as surrogates for rarer morphs or species of obligate egg feeders. 



Dendrobait said:


> One thing I wonder is if tadpoles are ever transported more than once-it seems this is a possibility with Ranitomeya.


Not reported in the literature to my knowledge. In Ranitomeya, it could make more ecological sense since the tadpoles are not obligate egg feeders but are faculative egg feeders. In that case moving the tadpole to a better resource makes sense and in a number of those species we see the main care is by the male who procures eggs for the tadpoles by a female to deposit a fertilized clutch in the presence of the tadpole(s). 



Dendrobait said:


> A funny thing is that I frequently observe both the male and the female soaking. I don't think the male shows any preference but I noticed the female spends a lot of time in empty pvc caps compared to those with tadpoles in them. Maybe trying to get some time away from her begging offspring to just hydrate or rest.


Feeding is expensive energetically on the female so that makes some sense but also consider that in the wild, the female is territorial over tadpole deposition sites and these frogs do have significant olfactory abilities. It could just as easily be the female imprinting a sent location or providing a sent to an area. 



Dendrobait said:


> 1. Big tadpole eats smaller tadpole. This would not be a bad outcome considering the smaller tadpole would likely have starved anyway


Very unlikely. While there are some unpublished reports of other materials in the digestive tract of obligate egg feeding tadpoles, the tadpoles lack the mouth structures that would make a meal of another tadpole. At least in granulifera, the small size of the normal deposition sites is due to competition with auratus. Granulifera uses the smaller water volumes because auratus do not acccept them as deposition sites. If granulifera tadpoles are deposition in a water body inhabited then or later by an auratus tadpole, the auratus tadpole consumes the granulifera tadpole. 



Dendrobait said:


> 2. Due to stress both tadpoles do poorly.
> 
> 3. both tadpoles grow, possibly at a slower rate.


Possible, I would suspect it wouldn't be due to stress but due to other factors. When I group reared amazonicus tadpoles communally I got a staggered emergence with significant differences in time despite abundant food and other resources. 




Dendrobait said:


> 1. If begging is an honest signal one should be able to steal feeder eggs from one tadpole and give them to another. The female should feed more to the first tadpole to quiet it down.


I think this might have to occur before the female leaves the deposition site. Otherwise the female won't be back to feed the tadpole for several days. 



Dendrobait said:


> 2. if a tadpole is replaced within 10 days with another tadpole irrespective of age or parentage it will be reared. One could swap tadpoles nearing metamorphosis-say, who are about to pop front limbs and thus will no longer be feeding with younger tadpoles that were abandoned. 2 tadpoles could also be rotated with each other... [/qupte]
> 
> I think you would have to do it as soon as the first tadpole began to decrease the begging intensity. At some point, the female no longer goes back to feed the tadpole once the digestive tract begins to change and feeding ceases.
> 
> ...


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed: Good stuff. I did read that paper-found a free pdf of it. Will hunt it down for others interested. 

It is funny I asked about tadpoles being moved more than once. I suspect that may have happened-but I have no concrete evidence. A new(?) tadpole appeared in the film canister on the left.
The small tadpole in the far right PVC cap seems to have disappeared. Well the water was a bit low in there because a dying planted had fainted into it and wicked most of the water out. I added in some water, pipetted the mixture multiple times and could not fine any signs of a tadpole. 

I suppose that the tadpole in the pvc cap could have died and disintegrated within a day or so, or that I somehow missed it, or that a clutch of eggs could be somewhere in this tank and me not notice...but who knows! 

Tank is certainly not winning any beauty contests but it being small and relatively barren still makes behavioral observations much easier.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Tadpole in the left PVC cap will probably make landfall soon...noticed it was bulging around the front so it has probably popped front arms at this point. A closer inspection of the tadpole in the right film canister also revealed well developed hind limbs. These creatures are certainly going to be tiny froglets-people are not kidding!


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I observed the tadpole in the center brom axil. It appears it was being neglected as it was emaciated and its tail had started to degrade. I decided to move it and place it in the pvc cap with the big tadpole on the right side of the tank. If you recall I did put a smaller tadpole into this cap-it dissapeared. Cannot really determine if it was eaten or if it died but it sure didn't last very long!


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

And yet another tadpole in the tadpole commune project has disappeared. No body in sight. Hmmm...

The tadpole on the far left in the cap appears to have front legs now and is developing pattern.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Despite a 3 day move all 4 of the tadpoles appear in good condition. 2 are basically frogs with tails that will crawl out soon. I am going to try transferring them in the pvc caps they are in into growout bins.

Still remains to be determined if the mother will adopt her two tadpoles that she has been separate from for 3 days.


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## wak4863 (Jul 26, 2012)

Dendrobait said:


> Reading on amphibiaweb apparently the male provides parental care for the eggs. I've so far only seen the female come back and pee on them. I'm wondering if in captivity dynamics are changed since food is not an issue the female can devote her time to parental care rather than tanking up and the male might be devoting his time to pursuing more mating opportunities
> 
> (no, the calling has not abated one bit-if anything he seems even more persistent now!)
> 
> ...


Love these pics. Your frogs are stunning.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

First two babies are out and running around in the growout tub.


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