# Fossil History of Plants - 30G Paleo Viv



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

*Fossil History of Plants - 30G Paleo Viv*

I already started a discussion over in this thread...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/80143-paleo-viv-concept-thread.html

...about developing a plants viv display around the theme of living fossils and otherwise phylogenetically old plant groups.

I'm going to go ahead and get some plants started in my 30 High fish tank.










Most of the kinds of plants that I have been reading about are woody trees or shrubs, but I am going to forest floor setup so I should be able to control the sizes of the plants to a certain degree by underpotting and with some pruning. I'm interested to try to start some plants from seed and so I might also have seedlings to work with.

The 30 High is not the most appealing size/shape, but I am going to do this setup mainly as a growout/farm tank and as a test for how the plants might grow in terrarium conditions. If I decide to scale up later on I will work instead with a 65G or 90G or big Exo Terra or something like that. 

More soon!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have some cycad seeds, but germination is something under 10% and growth is SLOOOOOOOOOW. But Encephalotus is an awesome genus of plant. You can buy other cycads like the cardboard plant cheaply at home depot. That would make a neat Viv addition. 
I used to have many dawn redwoods on my farm (metasequoia) thats an awesome tree with millions of years of fossil history


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I have a _Zamia vazquezii_ that I found cheap on ebay coming next week.

There are quite a few pretty cool trees and shrubs to consider. An important limiting factor will be that quite of them (_Ginko, Metasequoi_a, other gymnosperms) are temperate zone plants and probably have strong winter dormancy cycles and would generally rather grow out of doors. However I think that if I try a number of them I should be able to find some that will work as small trees in a viv.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Ginkgo and Metasequoia are both deciduous and need a winter dormancy. The mos beautiful tree I've ever seen was an outdoor bonsai weeping golden dawn redwood. Only $15,000.....


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I've been learning a lot of cool stuff while researching this.

That _Amborella_ plant--still alive after all these years!--is the apparent sister group to all other angiosperms. The next most basal group after that are the Nymphales, which include water lilies and related plants.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Interesting plant! I'd never heard of it before


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Another couple of other groups that represent very old divergences and that both happen to have Southeastern US representatives are Schisandraceae (_Illicium_) and Calycanthaceae (_Calycanthus_).


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

You know what would be really cool would be _Agathis_. This broad-leaved conifer really looks like a fossil plant to me. Who knows if it could be maintained at a small size(???). They make guitars from the wood of this tree.

Araucariaceae - Agathis loranthifolia - Dammara alba.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Does anybody know is this place still in operation?

Rareferns


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## davescrews (Dec 11, 2008)

Yup, picked up a few things last fall. He sends out a list a few times a year.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I should send him an email and request a list. I ordered from him once before and he sent such cool stuff. You can tell that he really loves his plants. 

Hey Dave I got your box shipped out check your email for the tracking #.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Sago palms are an ancient plant are they not? Though too big for a viv, very cool looking. Unrelated, but related, at the Zilker Botannical Garden in Austin, TX they have a Dinosaur garden complete with life size figerglass dinos all amongst plantings of ancient plants. It's pretty cool to walk through there and it's easy to think there is a raptor right around the next bend.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Most of these plants grow too big for a viv, but I hope to be able to control sizes to a certain degree by underpotting and some pruning. It will probably work for some plants and fail for others.

Next week I am getting via an ebay sale a _Zamia_, which is a cycad and thus related to sago palm. I ahve seen pictures of bonsai _Zamia_ and other cycads which grew smaller leaves than the regular species form because of the bonsai training.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I think you've got a great idea. It certainly could make for a stunning viv. Seems like finding suitable plants is going to be the tough part. What about some small ferns? I know they are ancient plants but some look more primitive than others.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yes there are quite a few ferns that I could consider using. I'd like to try to track down some more unusual ferns.

I have pondered this some more and I think I might shoot for a planting more or less representative of the Middle Cretaceous, or around 100 million years ago. During this time the angiosperm plants were beginning to diversify, but most terrestrial ecosystems would have still been dominated by gymnosperms, ferns and other more primitive plants.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Found monkey puzzle as little seedling liners!...

Burnt Ridge Nursery-Monkey Puzzle (Araucaria araucana)


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh boy I got a lead on some little _Agathis_ seedlings. I hope they won't cost too much and I hope I can grow 'em. 



hydrophyte said:


> You know what would be really cool would be _Agathis_. This broad-leaved conifer really looks like a fossil plant to me. Who knows if it could be maintained at a small size(???). They make guitars from the wood of this tree.
> 
> Araucariaceae - Agathis loranthifolia - Dammara alba.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Would you consider treating any of the bigger trees as bonsai and train them that way in the terrarium? I have no bonsai experience personally, but my dad had quite a collection. I've seen some really amazing styles with various species over the years and can just imagine a terrarium with a cliff face background, with bonsai growing over the edge... OK. That goes on my to do list 

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I don't intend to try to train the trees as bonsai specimens. I just want to try to keep them looking like seedlings by underpotting them and pruning them back when they get too tall. Some of them will probably respond OK to this, while others won't.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I ran into two different miniature_ Magnolia_ relatives at Logee's.

Both of these are described as growing well in pots and having richly-aromatic flowers...

Egg Magnolia (Talauma candollei)-Logee's Greenhouses

http://www.logees.com/Banana-Shrub-Michelia-figo/productinfo/R1436-2/


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Those are NICE....


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah those plants could be good for the background.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

These two genera make up all of the extant Schisandraceae, which are in the Austrobaileyales along with _Illicium_...

Google: _Schisandra_

Google: _Kadsura_

Similar plants would have been around in the Cretaceous. They are both widely available in horticulture.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

i bought that mitchellia from logees. it was nice but i killed it outside last summer. there is a guy somewhere west of madison who has a bizarre nursery who grow a few mitchellia. he does take them in in winter, not sure if he is still selling. also the rare ferns email was out today. most of what i wanted sold out before i got home from work.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I was just reading this awesome book that I checked out at the library, _Paleobotany: The Bilology and Evolution of Fossil Plants_, and it was explaining that _Magnolia_ and related plants like _Mithcellia_ actually are not so old like they were presumed to be. 

But magnolia-related plants still are pretty old and go back to at least the middle of the Cretaceous.

I wonder who the guy is with the nursery? Do you remember which town it might be near?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

A dwarf Podocarpus...

Google: _Podocarpus_ 'Dwarf Pringles'


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This is a nice Mexico _Zamia_. Sometimes the leaves only grow to 12" long, btu they can get bigger than that too.

PACSOA: _Zamia loddigesii_


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This is just another placeholder for another plant.

Look at this amazing _Blechnum _tree fern...

Blechnum obtusatum


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

cucumber tree nursery and it is near blanchardville. definately need to call ahead and see what he has and set up a visit. very cool guy running it and a neat location. as i recall he had a couple other things growing there that you cant believe he can grow in wisconsin.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh yes I know Blanchardville I should go check that out someday.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Last night I started to actually set this thing up.

I got the first plant in there. This the dwarf tree fern _Blechnum brasiliense_.










I was reading that modern tree ferns really aren't so closely related to the giant tree ferns that grew in coal swamps a very long time ago (Permian and older) but they are ferns so more or less representative of this old group. Plus they look evolutionarily primitive.


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

this is gonna be awesome.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This setup isn't really going to look like much; I'm mainly using it to test out different kinds of plants and get them rooting. 

I'll start another journal thread to start planning out the more serious display probably in a 65G fish tank.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This is another important concept...

Antarctic flora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A lot of the plants that I have been looking at have that ancient Gondwanaland distribution.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I am going to try to track down and _Ilicium floridanum_ next. This might be a good one. I like the way it looks. Although it is apparently hardy to Zone 7, it is native to Southeastern-most US, especially Florida & Louisiana, and it is evergreen. It might grow alright in a viv.

The flowers are pretty cool and they have that primitive angiosperm appearance. Here is a Wikipedia photo...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Illicium_floridanum_3.jpg









And here is the foliage with fruit...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/FloridaAnise_18Jul2010.JPG


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got my _Zamia vasquezii _in the mail! It is a cool plant. It is small for a cycad, but still pretty big with leaves around 24" long. I hope I can make it fit. IT helps that has light and open foliage.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh gosh!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's the whole plant. Those longest leaves were almost 24" long, which is too big. I hope that I can get it to grow shorter leaves by trimming the roots back and keeping it in a smaller pot. It would be nice to keep the leaves at something more like 10"-12" tall.










I wish I had gotten a second one of these to use like a houseplant. I really like the way it looks and it was cheap on ebay.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's a closer look at the caudex when I had the plant knocked out of the pot.










I hope I don't kill this plant. I had to cut off 1" of that fleshy root on the bottom to fit it in the planter pot.


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

Good news about your Zamia, people do bonsai cycads so you shouldnt have too much trouble reducing the leaf size


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah the pictures that you find online show bonsaied _Z. furfuracea_ with pretty big caudices, but leaves just 6"-12" long. I hope that keeping it in small pot will reduce the leaf size, but for some kinds of plants very humid air and dimmer light encourages more leggy growth. I'll just see what happens. 

I'd like to get some seeds going too. Cycads don't grow super fast so I could keep seedlings looking pretty good and staying small for a while, then when they get too big just take them out and turn them into houseplants.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I found a dwarf _Cyrtomium_ fern...

Cyrtomium falcatum maritimum - Dwarf Holly-lvd Fern ForestFarm


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Another crazy fern, this one in genus _Sticherus_...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Shield_Fern_Elvina_Bay.jpg









Good luck finding anything like this in the trade.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm getting pretty stoked to get some roaches going and see how they might do with this kind of setup. Most kinds of roaches do best with a substrate to hide inside of. To keep them happy I might have to keep some kind of a dish with extra substrate on top of the false bottom plate. 

I want to include a single tree trunk base in the display and this will be a good way to also grow a few epiphytic ferns. I just ran into a _Platycerium_ that stays real small, _P. madagascariense,_ and it could look really cool in there. Because of the other plants that I am using this will be a more airy and somewhat drier enclosure, but _Platycerium_ can do better with lower humidity. Here is the rareferns.com page about that species...

Platycerium madagascariense


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Wow, that forestfarm.com place has _Michelia_ and _Schisandra_ and _Kadsura_ and several different _Podocarpus_. I might have to order there next for this project.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

i have ordered brom forest farm a couple times. i liked their plants and will be ordering from them this spring for some perenials.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'll have most of the rest of the plants that I need for this project when I order from them. I look forward to seeing what they look like.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Today I got in the mail my _Zamia furfuracea_ and _Z. integrifolia._ They are little seedlings just 6" tall or so and already with nice little caudices.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here is one of these little _Z. integrifoli_a.










I potted up most of them but still have a few loose. The guy in Florida sent the whole box stuffed full of them.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yesterday I got another box from Florida with my two little Asian bayberry (_Nageia nagi_) trees. They are really cool. It's so odd that this tree is a conifer, but with these broad leaves. I will try to get pictures of my little trees, but in the meantime here's a Wikipedia image of an old botanical print.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileodocarpus_nageia_SZ137.png


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

if you want Sticherus that one i can get spores of easily, very common locally


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

That sure would be cool to try one of those _Sticherus_. Apparently they are common garden plants in Australia and New Zealand, but they don't seem to be in the trade here at all. Have you ever started them from spores? Are there any very small species?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's my _Nageia nagi_ tree that I got from Florida. I hope it will grow.








[/QUOTE]

Actually the seller sent two of them. I potted up the second one to use like a houseplant.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a couple of quick pictures of my new little _Gyna lurida_ nymphs. They are cute.

It's going to take a few months before I have adults.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I tracked down a few little _Podocarpus_ seedlings and I will try to get pictures later tonight.

This is a Wikipedia, Creative Commons image...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Podocarpus_macrophyllus_inumaki.JPG/800px-Podocarpus_macrophyllus_inumaki.JPG


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a quick picture to show the plant collection _so far_.










The setup doesn't look like much yet, but this gives you an idea of how the foliage of these various plants looks.


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## moraki (Nov 5, 2011)

Not sure how it would work in a viv, but the entire horsetail family is ancient going back to the Paleozoic era. 

Equisetum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

moraki said:


> Not sure how it would work in a viv, but the entire horsetail family is ancient going back to the Paleozoic era.
> 
> Equisetum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Yep that's on my list too. There are a few different ones that are available commercially as garden plants and we have a couple of wild ones here too. I'll just have to try them out to see if they will grow in a viv.


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