# froglets with SLS



## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

Im just curious, what do you do with froglets with SLS? Is there a treatment?


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

There is no treatment


----------



## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

oman... so you have to throw them out?


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I believe the standard is to euthanize them with Orajel. Do a search on euthanasia and you'll find a lot of info.


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

can someone tell me what SLS is and what it looks like I don't understand what everyone means by this =(


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

VenomR00 said:


> can someone tell me what SLS is and what it looks like I don't understand what everyone means by this =(



front legs are not developed. =( is a sad face


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

-.- thanks for the sad face input lol... but what is the reason for SLS? is it a deficincy or something genetic?


----------



## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

calcium deficiency i think it is correct me if im wrong


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Its really not set in stone what actually causes it. Most people believe it's a Vit A defeciency


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

SLS - Spindley Leg Syndrome. You'll know if your frog has it. They morph out and their front legs look like toothpicks. The only treatment is prevention, ensure that you're supplementing your frogs with plenty of vitamin A, D3 and calcium. Switch out supplements every six months. 

I euthanize with alcohol. 100 proof alcohol, first I place the froglet in a 5 percent solution to anesthatize the frog, then I put the froglet in a 50 percent solution. Hurts me every time....


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SLS is a spectrum disorder which can result in froglets that have minimal disruption of development of the front legs to those where there is total disruption of one or more limbs (and hind limb deformation are reported in extreme cases). (For those who are interested, there is a history of SLS along with reported cures in a prior issue of Leaf Litter magazine, it covered everything up to the recent discovery of vitamin A deficiency). Frogs with minimal disruption may escape all but the closest examination. 

There is no treatment once the tadpole metamorphs and with the exception of those on the minimal affected end of the spectrum, starvation is going to be the cause of death unless they are euthanized. 

If you are seeing it, the first thing you can do to try to head off any further problems is to include a human grade supplement containing preformed vitamin A in the form of retinyl palmitate or retinoic acid. This supplement will have to be reground to get it to stick well to the insects and it can used once to twice a month to see if that resolves the problem. As a further measure including a supplement that contains multiple types of carotenoids (as anurans have multiple carotenoids stored in thier tissues and have alternate pathways for carotenoid conversions to retinol (see the latest issue of Leaf Litter for an article discussing this). 

There is an article on euthenasia here http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml 
Oragel is now approved as a method of euthenasia and an alternate method of application can be achieved by whipping it into water until a milky solution is achieved (not easy as it doesn't dissolve in water).

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## randa4 (Jul 29, 2010)

There seems to be increasing evidence that suggests that SLS is also aligned with breeding temps that are too high. Most of the successful thumbnail breeders I have talked to suggest that temps between 70-75F (max) are best. It is a slower metamorphosis, but seems to have a lot less problems, like SLS. Two excellent thumbnail breeders have told me this personally. Temps that are higher, i.e., 75-80F seem to have a higher incidence of SLS. While not an empirical solution, it seems that cooler temps yield less problems. I keep my frogs at 70F-74F all the time.

___________________________________________________
Mike in Helotes


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

randa4 said:


> There seems to be increasing evidence that suggests that SLS is also aligned with breeding temps that are too high. Most of the successful thumbnail breeders I have talked to suggest that temps between 70-75F (max) are best. It is a slower metamorphosis, but seems to have a lot less problems, like SLS. Two excellent thumbnail breeders have told me this personally. Temps that are higher, i.e., 75-80F seem to have a higher incidence of SLS. While not an empirical solution, it seems that cooler temps yield less problems. I keep my frogs at 70F-74F all the time.
> 
> ___________________________________________________
> Mike in Helotes


You may be interested in obtaining a copy of Abnormalities of forelimb and pronephros in a direct developing frog suggest a retinoic acid deficiency Lee, RP Elinson - Applied Herpetology, 2008.. As the developemental issues described in the article are the same as those seen in the egg and later in the metamorphs. In addition, on anecdotal report (both personal experience and reported by others) the addition of retinoids to the diets of the amphibians has in a number of cases resolved SLS as well as poor hatching rates of tadpoles. 

This does not mean that there cannot be other causes of SLS but currently it appears that those real causes are being swamped by those caused by insufficient vitamin A. I also suggest checking out the historical review of SLS in Leaf Litter. 

Ed


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Since switching to Repashy ICB, which contains Vitamin A, I have yet to have another froglet morph out with SLS except for the ones from adults I have had for less than 6 months. 

I have a pair of 8 year old (now) retics that for the first year and a half I had them only laid eggs that didn't develop (blew up) and in the rare cases they did, the froglets had SLS. 

Seperating the adults and feeding them flies dusted with human grade Vitamin A on a bi-weekly basis for 2 months fixed all problems with development. They are now receiving just the regular supplementation and have been breeding for over 8 months now.

I keep all my frogs at 76 to 82 degrees (depending on species) and all tads are 74-76 degrees.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Hurts me every time....


I bet it does, Jake.

Why not just leave the cup vertical? 

They can't pull themselves out and it's over. Not fun, but better than having to do it yourself.


----------



## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

I can't claim to know what it is like for the froglet, but I once had a near-drowning experience. Not pleasant! I'd feel a little better if the froglet was anesthetized rather than it being left in the cup.

Not that I really think animals need exactly the same human treatment as people... but still.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

DannyMeister said:


> I'd feel a little better if the froglet was anesthetized rather than it being left in the cup.


Maybe so, but what would happen in nature?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> Maybe so, but what would happen in nature?


I have a couple of comments on this thought... 

1) the frog is not in nature.. the frog is being housed in a artificial system in such a manner that not even the diet fed to the frog/tadpole is "natural" requiring artificial supplementation to prevent deficiencies.. If your thoughts are that you should treat the frogs as they are in the wild, then using supplements, cultivated insects, artificial lighting, cultivated plants, etc.. should all be questioned as well... The question then arises when the bigger picture is examined is why would you argue that allowing the froglet to suffer is acceptable because it occurs in nature but are willing to be totally artificial in virtually all other aspects of its care.. 

2) the frogs in the wild are not 100% dependent on the care of a person, who should (and technically legal) have an obligation to not allow the animal to suffer needlessly. The frogs feel stress, pain and other negative stimuli so allowing a sls affected froglet to starve, or drown should be considered as much of a problem as other poor husbandry methods. 

3) euthenasia for amphibians is not a difficult process and is very effective. 

I've said my piece on this thought and do not intend to comment on it further. 

Ed


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

We saw this on a "How to" video and though it was an acceptable practice. 

We've had two froglets with sls and they perished in the water. 

After speaking with Ed through PM's we will no longer be using this method. We thought it was a humane method. IT IS NOT!

*We will use the alcohol method form here on in. 

*

Thanks Ed!


----------



## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I've had some Azureus froglets morph out with sls when my pair just started laying, its a sad thing, but you have to kill them for their sake.


----------



## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

I also believe it is caused by insuffisient supplements.
If it would be Vit-A has yet to be determined,
altough Vit-A is a plausible cause but another suggested cause is shortage of Vit-D, Folium acid and Calcium.

I am lucky not to have had this, 
tough i always pay close attention to the suplements i give the adults and
keep the larvaes at room temp.

I think the better results with lower temps. may be prove that a shortage of some kind is to blame.
Faster developing tadpoles have a need for larger amounts of suplements in a short time.

If you look at other species prone to diseases caused by insufficient vitamines/minerals, in most cases this are species with a rather fast growing rate.
A nice example would be the C.Calyptratus that grows very fast and is rather sensitive for Rachitis when not given enough Vit D3 and Calcium.

I suggest this would make a difference between raising tads as well.
Warmer water is in my experience causing the tads to get ashore smaller then
the ones raised in water at room temperature.
In addition the faster raised tads may suffer from a shortage of the important vitamines and minerals.

Wesley Brouwer
Workgroup DN English Magazine.









Check out our webshop to see the first English release:
Dn Magazine 2010 English


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wesleybrouwer said:


> I also believe it is caused by insuffisient supplements.
> If it would be Vit-A has yet to be determined,
> altough Vit-A is a plausible cause but another suggested cause is shortage of Vit-D, Folium acid and Calcium.
> 
> ...


Hi Wesley,

I am repeating this from above.. 

quote "You may be interested in obtaining a copy of Abnormalities of forelimb and pronephros in a direct developing frog suggest a retinoic acid deficiency Lee, RP Elinson - Applied Herpetology, 2008.. As the developemental issues described in the article are the same as those seen in the egg and later in the metamorphs. In addition, on anecdotal report (both personal experience and reported by others) the addition of retinoids to the diets of the amphibians has in a number of cases resolved SLS as well as poor hatching rates of tadpoles. 

This does not mean that there cannot be other causes of SLS but currently it appears that those real causes are being swamped by those caused by insufficient vitamin A. I also suggest checking out the historical review of SLS in Leaf Litter. "endquote.

There are indications that depending on the diet and the temperature it can affect the sizes of metamorphs but this also on anecdotal evidence appears to be species dependent with inconsistencies between keepers (as other factors like photoperiod can also play a role in this).. 

Ed


----------



## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

Hi Ed,

I am still reading the digital leaf litters i got some weeks ago from someone 
Always interesting to read about things like this i think 
At the moment i am quit busy with our own English release of our Magazine,
but i will see if i can find that article to read first in line.



For the size of the metamorphs,

in my own experience, i witnessed this with multiple genera i raised myself.
Dendrobates, Phyllobates and Ranitomeya species.
I also heard the same thing from other breeders,
warmer water results in a faster metamorphosis rate,
but has a downside to the size of the froglets.

Therefore i chose to raise my tads at room temperature.
I don't use artificial lighting on the tads btw
and keep them out of the sun since i've seen some studies on tadpoles and UV.

That leaves us with the knowledge,
still lot's have to be discovered about this wonderful creatures 

Wesley Brouwer
Workgroup DN English Magazine.









Check out our webshop to see the first English release:
Dn Magazine 2010 English


----------

