# Vivarium Lid/Ventilation



## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

I have thinking about putting together vivarium and I have heard glass lids are better than screen lids because they keep the humidity up. With this, how would you keep up ventilation though, assuming you had all glass enclosure? Is there a preferred specific type of enclosure?

Thanks


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Tarantuland said:


> I have thinking about putting together vivarium and I have heard glass lids are better than screen lids because they keep the humidity up. With this, how would you keep up ventilation though, assuming you had all glass enclosure? Is there a preferred specific type of enclosure?
> 
> Thanks


Generally speaking , few of us use full glass lids.

Most froggers use a premade front opening terrarium (exo Terra, zoo med, InSitu, Atasuki, etc.) and modify it as needed to be appropriate for dart frogs. The standard screens on an exo Terra / Atasuki / zoo med can be modified to be more appropriate for dart frogs by placing pieces of glass or plexiglass on top of the steel mesh ventilation to restrict airflow. Using multiple pieces of glass (or plexiglass) allows you to adjust the ventilation as required. 

Here's an example of one of my lids with the plexiglass pulled to the side to show it more easily.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Generally speaking , few of us use full glass lids.
> 
> Most froggers use a premade front opening terrarium (exo Terra, zoo med, InSitu, Atasuki, etc.) and modify it as needed to be appropriate for dart frogs. The standard screens on an exo Terra / Atasuki / zoo med can be modified to be more appropriate for dart frogs by placing pieces of glass or plexiglass on top of the steel mesh ventilation to restrict airflow. Using multiple pieces of glass (or plexiglass) allows you to adjust the ventilation as required.
> 
> ...


Awesome, thanks. I actually have plexiglass like that because I use them to replace the screen for tarantula enclosures. But I could just use one like you do in that picture. A 12x12x12 exoterra wouldn’t be big enough though right? I’d be looking more for a 12x12x18 or an 18x18x24?


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Here's my top for an exo-terra. It's 1/4" glass with screen vents on the front and back. You can find instructions for the vents here on dendroboard in the parts and construction section.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I will add that of all the brand name terrariums, exo's are by far the easiest to convert for darts. They redesigned them sometime recently and it's super easy to fly proof the door vent. And with the way the new screen tops work, you don't have to dremel out anything from the frame to fit your glass and vents.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Tarantuland said:


> A 12x12x12 exoterra wouldn’t be big enough though right? I’d be looking more for a 12x12x18 or an 18x18x24?


Correct. I don't actually even use a 12x12x18" for any of my frogs. They're all in 18x18x24" tanks or bigger


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Correct. I don't actually even use a 12x12x18" for any of my frogs. They're all in 18x18x24" tanks or bigger


Oh wow, so even a pair of tincs would be better in an 18x18x24?


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Yeah 18" tall isn't tall enough for our frogs. Once you have a false bottom, soil, and leaf litter you're talking about 12" in height. That's not appropriate for anything more than a grow out container. You want at least 24" height. Personally I'm doing anything smaller than 24x36".


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Tarantuland said:


> Oh wow, so even a pair of tincs would be better in an 18x18x24?


18x18x24" is the bare minimum size for a pair of tinctorius.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

They would do better in a 36"x24, but a decent size would be 24x24". I kept a pair of azureus in an 18x18x24" exo when I first got in the hobby. Within a year I realized this wasn't the best size for them and moved them to a 40 gallon breeder.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

Oh wow ok thanks y'all. I was told that 5 gal per frog was ideal with tincs, but I understand y'all saying to go bigger


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Tarantuland said:


> Oh wow ok thanks y'all. I was told that 5 gal per frog was ideal with tincs, but I understand y'all saying to go bigger


I don't know who told you that but don't take any more frog advice from them. That hasn't been an acceptable practice in over 10 years. Anyone who is still keeping frogs that way is just trying to cram as many animals into their too-small room as possible despite knowing it's not appropriate. It's completely unethical to keep frogs that way.

Thanks for being receptive to our advice.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

JasonE said:


> I don't know who told you that but don't take any more frog advice from them. That hasn't been an acceptable practice in over 10 years. Anyone who is still keeping frogs that way is just trying to cram as many animals into their too-small room as possible despite knowing it's not appropriate. It's completely unethical to keep frogs that way.
> 
> Thanks for being receptive to our advice.


Yeah of course, I totally understand as in the tarantula hobby (my main thing) we see lots of incorrect husbandry. I'm gonna make sure I have room for a big enough enclosure but I hope to start putting together a vivarium soon and maybe get some frogs in like a month. I have a pacman frog (ceratophyrs) in a bioactive I did recently that's going ok but their care is obviously different. 

I'm glad this website exists, much like arachnoboards, as a place to find good husbandry. For a lot of reptiles and amphibians and inverts it's really challenging to find good info. It's a lot to navigate but there information is definitely here.

Thanks everyone for your help. I have more questions about whether misters or waterfalls are necessary and some other things but I'm just gonna keep reading here. I need the enclosure itself but I already have most of the other things necessary to build a vivarium.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I gotta run, but no waterfalls or water features.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

I've seen youtube videos like Clint's reptiles and Biodude, but would anyone be able to link me to somewhere here on how to really put together a nice vivarium? 

Like I get it that I'll start with a proper enclosure, maybe 30 or 40 gallon or an exoterra 18x18x24. Then do a drainage layer with leca/gravel etc, then mesh or coconut flower pot liner, sphagnum moss, then peat moss or abg substrate. Live plants with LED or UVB light, springtails, possibly isopods. 

Certain things like misting, waterfall, filtration, etc, as well as fly proofing the lid vents I'm still not sure about. I did put a zoo med waterfall in my pacman frog enclosure, but it is a poor quality product and I don't want to deal with another one.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

JasonE said:


> I gotta run, but no waterfalls or water features.


Thank you!


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

Would a 20 gallon tall, 25x17.25x13.25 work? L x H x W


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Tarantuland said:


> Like I get it that I'll start with a proper enclosure, maybe 30 or 40 gallon or an exoterra 18x18x24. Then do a drainage layer with leca/gravel etc, then mesh or coconut flower pot liner, sphagnum moss, then peat moss or abg substrate. Live plants with LED or UVB light, springtails, possibly isopods.


No layer of sphagnum and no peat substrate, that’s just asking for a constantly waterlogged system. The usual standard is PVC rounds with egg crate on top, or just matala, to avoid wicking, then some kind of non-water-retentive screen (not coco fiber pot liners, which will break down), then ABG, then leaf litter. LECA or gravel can work as drainage but they give you less control over moisture level in the soil due to wicking. You can also use other non-soil-based substrates like clay, but I’m less familiar with that technique - but peat moss is definitely not a replacement for ABG, it will stay way too wet.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tarantuland said:


> Would a 20 gallon tall, 25x17.25x13.25 work? L x H x W


A better question is 'what is the ideal dimensions of a vivarium?', rather than what will work. More directly, that minimum (*minimum*) 18 x 18 x 24 Exo is about 30 gallons volume, and a much more usable footprint, and it vents properly unlike a fish tank. 

Re: the videos you mentioned -- I'd be very skeptical of the info from anyone who describes how to build general "bioactive" enclosures. There isn't any one-design-fits-all viv that's suitable for dart frogs, and the general 'bioactive' movement has a lot of issues with keeping animals inappropriately.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Explanation of a few of my statements: due to the constant humidity and the amount of water being added to a dart frog (or epiphyte-focused, in my case) tank on a daily basis, substrate tends to have issues with being waterlogged rather than too dry. This tends to be exacerbated by automated misting systems, which are more regular and thorough than hand misting. So where in a terrarium exposed to household conditions, you might want to do things to encourage moisture retention (like have a lava rock drainage layer, which I use in most of my terrariums) and then just water enough to keep the plants happy, in a dart frog vivarium you have to water for the frogs and any non-terrestrial plants and hope the terrestrial plants can tolerate it. ABG is great because it is very airy and keeps evenly moist while also draining very well. Peat moss or coco coir as a substrate are both dense and retain a lot of water, while also being nutrient poor.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> A better question is 'what is the ideal dimensions of a vivarium?', rather than what will work. More directly, that minimum (*minimum*) 18 x 18 x 24 Exo is about 30 gallons volume, and a much more usable footprint, and it vents properly unlike a fish tank.
> 
> Re: the videos you mentioned -- I'd be very skeptical of the info from anyone who describes how to build general "bioactive" enclosures. There isn't any one-design-fits-all viv that's suitable for dart frogs, and the general 'bioactive' movement has a lot of issues with keeping animals inappropriately.


FWIW these are people who talk about all kinds of different animals but have videos specific for dart frog vivs. I hear you though. I'm not modeling what I do after anyone specific just looking at a few to get some inspiration and ideas. I trust people on here more than anyone on youtube though.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

My best advice: decide what species of frogs interest you most then build for them. Different species will have different terrarium design requirements. 

Then after you have chosen a species, search through the members vivarium section to find examples


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> My best advice: decide what species of frogs interest you most then build for them. Different species will have different terrarium design requirements.
> 
> Then after you have chosen a species, search through the members vivarium section to find examples


I'm interested in Dendrobates tinctorius right now. I'm looking through the vivarium section but starting to just get more questions than answers haha


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Tarantuland said:


> I'm interested in Dendrobates tinctorius right now. I'm looking through the vivarium section but starting to just get more questions than answers haha


Then start asking those questions here .


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

Ok well for one, I understand there are a few different drainage layers, and I feel capable of doing the pvc/egg crate type. But now I see a lot of the aquariums have drainage tubes, some with holes drilled from the glass. Is a drainage tube absolutely necessary? It seems like some of the vivs I look at don't have them


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

All of mine have a drainage bulkhead drilled for drainage. I don't like having to siphon water out.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

And while I know that cork bark is mold resistant, I have still seen it get moldy on several occasions. It seems like it could be an issue to attach bark or tubes with foam or silicone. If you do, what do you do if it starts to get moldy?


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> drainage bulkhead


Does this mean a spigot on the bottom of the enclosure?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

The mold will get eaten by the springtails and Isopods that you'll use as a cleanup crew . Plus it's not an issue to have a bit of mold .

People on here get deliriously happy about finding mushrooms in their tanks  



Tarantuland said:


> Does this mean a spigot on the bottom of the enclosure?


No, on the back side panel not the bottom. Bottom bulkhead easily turns into broken when you're moving the terrarium.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> The mold will get eaten by the springtails and Isopods that you'll use as a cleanup crew . Plus it's not an issue to have a bit of mold .
> 
> People on here get deliriously happy about finding mushrooms in their tanks
> 
> ...


Sorry I'm still confused...so do you need a filter or anything? I'm searching bulkhead both on this site and on google and still not really understanding what it is or how it works


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

The bulkhead drains through a hose into the drain reservoir.

Pictures here: 
bulkhead drain










Reservoir:


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

Gotcha. So is that something you open the valve and let flow into the reservoir daily? Or more or less?

It seems like a lot of the enclosures I look at don't have a drainage tube or bulkhead. Is this just improper husbandry?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Tarantuland said:


> Gotcha. So is that something you open the valve and let flow into the reservoir daily? Or more or less?
> 
> It seems like a lot of the enclosures I look at don't have a drainage tube or bulkhead. Is this just improper husbandry?


I only have the valve so I can shut the valve off when I empty the reservoir so that it doesn't leak onto my floor. The valve is open all the time except when I'm emptying the reservoir.

The alternate is to use a siphon system to remove the excess water.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I only have the valve so I can shut the valve off when I empty the reservoir so that it doesn't leak onto my floor. The valve is open all the time except when I'm emptying the reservoir.
> 
> The alternate is to use a siphon system to remove the excess water.


Ah I see. Thanks for all of the info


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fishingguy12345 said:


> People on here get deliriously happy about finding mushrooms in their tanks


Just @ me next time


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