# Heterogeneous versus homogeneous amphibian collections



## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

It seems that the prevailing model in amphibian husbandry is toward keeping multiple species or different populations (AKA 'morphs' -- I'll let Brent get into that issue) of a couple of species. I think there are some obvious benefits to keeping multiple species such as the ability to observe through comparison about the behaviors, needs, and breeding requirements of various species. Similarly, I think there is a personal reward to the hobbyist in working with multiple species.

In the context of the global amphibian crisis, being able to house as many species as possible is a necessity. However, having genetic diversity and animals whose ancestry is know is also a goal. So, in order to create viable populations of some species, having more homogeneous collections could aid logistically for the management of a captive breeding conservation program. Do you think that this could be an attractive model if it were part of a coordinated effort and you were working closely with other individuals keeping that particular species?

The question is relevant to the captive breeding goals of Tree Walkers, because in developing the framework, we need some sort of structure to ease exchange of information, manage the genetic diversity of the population, etc. The concept is to have a group of stewards (who are working with a species or group of similar species) work as a team with a team facilitator who can interface with zoos, scientists, document findings, etc. However, this could be pretty complicated if you keep 20 species and had to interface with 20 facilitators. However, I don't see any better way of organizing those collaborating on species/group management.

I'm not implying that the two are mutually exclusive, they aren't, it is entirely possible and likely that you would perhaps only have one or two species enrolled in the program while the rest of your collection was not enrolled. I'm just kind of curious if people are interested in species or group specialization within the hobby if it is with a specific goal in mind. I'm also curious if specialized collections could be another viable trend in the hobby in addition to more diverse collections.

Marcos


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

While it is really nice to have a diverse collection - true expertise would be better attained if the majority of an individuals time and energy were invested in a particular species.

It is also true that individuals may have a "knack" or inherent success with certain species - the best way to harness such success is to have the individual focus on that which they have success.

I love all of my frogs - but if having a true impact means working with just one species - I would do it in a heartbeat...


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

A maybe option may have been a good idea as well...

Im in the middle, but then again the number of frogs I keep I guess is on the higher end of the average hobbiest. 

So while I am all for keeping multiple tanks of the same species, and am doing so today, Im not sure I would want to only keep one species.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i`ve been dealing w/ this issue as of late. from a business standpoint i can not work w/ only one species unless it be pumilio, which may not produce the #`s i need to sell to make a living. it is also very hard to produce enough animals during the switch not knowing how long they will produce before they take a break. i am trying to focus on phyllos and pumilio but the diversity of lines just isn`t here. 
the prolificity of phyllobates also tends to lend to more work to maintain a breeding season as more than one pair of each would fill this house in less than a month.
i am open to suggestions as i do want to maintain the diversity but these frogs are just too prolific. i am working on tank raising setups w/ only 20 water features per tank so that some tads will be fed other tads to reduce #`s. i would like to find more lines of what i am working w/ already.
problems arise w/ group breeding of species like galacts also.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> i`ve been dealing w/ this issue as of late. from a business standpoint i can not work w/ only one species unless it be pumilio, which may not produce the #`s i need to sell to make a living. it is also very hard to produce enough animals during the switch not knowing how long they will produce before they take a break. i am trying to focus on phyllos and pumilio but the diversity of lines just isn`t here.
> the prolificity of phyllobates also tends to lend to more work to maintain a breeding season as more than one pair of each would fill this house in less than a month.
> i am open to suggestions as i do want to maintain the diversity but these frogs are just too prolific. i am working on tank raising setups w/ only 20 water features per tank so that some tads will be fed other tads to reduce #`s. i would like to find more lines of what i am working w/ already.
> problems arise w/ group breeding of species like galacts also.


Only 20 water features per tank?


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

And there is the hybrid approach which Kyle and others hit on. That is to restrain your collection such that you have a little variety but you focus on 1, 2, or maybe 3 groups (species or populations) that receive the bulk of resources and space.


----------



## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

josh raysin said:


> have any animals from private collections ever been used to repopulate natural habitats?
> 
> i personally like working with many different species.


No (not that I know of), but from zoos yes, here is a good summary : http://amphibiaweb.org/declines/zoo/index.html

For the record though, reintroduction, head-start, and translocation are only some of the goals of ex-situ conservation breeding.

For a good overview of captive breeding benefits and challenges, see "Husbandry: science or art?" in this document:
http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/thre ... grammes%22

(I'll post in more detail shortly, off to dinner with out of town guests. I think we might want to split this to a different thread as well).


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

one problem that needs to be overcome is to figure out what potential pathogens CB animals could harbor if they were to be rereleased into the wild, whether or not native species would be threatened by it.

Think Rana viruses, chytrid, and there was one other that started wtih a "B" (Blastidium something I think?) Those were all spread primarily from CB farmed bullfrogs or xenopus.

CB dart frogs may come into contact with something that remains asymptopic from contamination, but it may not harm them immediately like chytrids and bullfrogs. However, if not screened carefully enough they could introduce something back in their homeland and wreck havoc on other species, even if it does them no harm. 

Thus, we have the same "chytrid situation" all over again.

I highly agree about quality over quantity. The more time you devote to just a few species generally would lead to better offspring and more accurate records of their heredity. Things would be better managed. Things would be laid out already if push comes to shove and we would have to reintroduce something back.

I hope we realize how small the ranges are for many of the morphs.


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> one problem that needs to be overcome is to figure out what potential pathogens CB animals could harbor if they were to be rereleased into the wild, whether or not native species would be threatened by it.


These quarantine and disease screening protocols are already being worked out by the consortium of partners in the Amphibian Ark http://www.waza.org/conservation/campai ... aigns&id=1

What we hope to do is bring a number of private facilities up to the standards that are already required by zoos for amphibian breeding and rescue. As Marcos pointed out, reintroduction to the wild is not the only benefit to maintaining managed captive breeding programs. But if ASN is to be successful in providing a reintroduction role, the training and accreditation will have to meet the minimum standards of the professionals running the programs.

So this gets back to Marcos' original poll. The quarantine procedures are very rigorous and even zoos will have a difficult time meeting them. This may present unique opportunities for individuals who maintain few species because keeping a few species quarantined and isolated from one another is much easier than doing so with a large collection. I will also add that we are still establishing contacts among the various A-Ark parties but there are no guarantees that ASN will be adopted into the program. We are approaching this from the idea that if we build a system that rivals the best that zoos have to offer in terms of professionalism, accountability, and resources, then it will be much more likely we will be included.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i tried the link and got this
Warning: mysql_connect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (61) in /home/wazaorg/public_html/inc.db.php on line 17
Verbindung kann nicht hergestellt werden
is it password access?


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> i tried the link and got this
> Warning: mysql_connect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (61) in /home/wazaorg/public_html/inc.db.php on line 17
> Verbindung kann nicht hergestellt werden
> is it password access?


Looks like their site is bonkers. I got that message earlier but was able to go through the 'conservation' and 'campaigns' links to finally get the A-Ark link. But none of that is working now.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

If we want to split this let me know how I can take care of that.

So this brings up some interesting thoughts. So say I kept some species for this project and separate from my current collection... I guess Im thinking how separate? Separate misting systems, drains? etc... Im just thinking out loud here but Id be very interested in the protocol and how it would be validated and checked.

I would guess that there is a bunch of required documentation as well like tracking offspring and etc, which I do a bit but have never logged it watch trends or anything of that nature. Other than for a brief time when testing tadpole foods.

Another thing is what would determine the scale required... For example are we talking 2-3 tanks or 20? Im sure I maybe thinking a bit ahead, but my mind just does that.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`m adding 1000 sq ft. next year(if plans go well) and all i have is the 20x50 footer and dirt right now. I was thinking of walk in pumilio tanks but i`m not sure if i want to invest the money in an untried project.
This sounds more worthwhile. I would be willing to dedicate up to half the space depending upon cost and conditions. I mean I can`t afford $1800 lab tables but i can get cheap stainless scrap sheets and build my own. 
I guess I`ll try the site again tomoroow.


----------



## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

All,

I should probably have written something like:

"Would you build a collection or devote a significant part of your collection with multiple colonies/breeding pairs of one species instead of multiple species as part of a conservation project?" Under both the devoted and hybrid scenario, I see the results of the poll thus far really encouraging. I had in mind not only those with existing collections, but also folks starting a brand new collection.

The biggest things I am trying to trouble shoot are the logistics issues and things like Aaron brought up about the economic impact on those who breed commercially. Doug's point about disease is also a good one and hopefully we'll get a peek at the A-Ark quarantine protocols in a bit. The context here within ASN is that we are trying to build teams that focus on a species or species group that has ties in academia, the hobby, and in zoological institutions. This is somewhat easier to manage on a per species or species group level.

Marcos

(I think that we should split Josh's question about private sector reintroduction success and my reply. This topic has come up before and I think merits its own separate thread).


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> So this brings up some interesting thoughts. So say I kept some species for this project and separate from my current collection... I guess Im thinking how separate? Separate misting systems, drains? etc... Im just thinking out loud here but Id be very interested in the protocol and how it would be validated and checked.


The draft guidelines are pretty strict. It is unclear what will be required vs. recommended. But those who can isolate their collections by geographic location in separate rooms will be at the very top of the game. The quarantine guidelines are contained in:

Zippel, K., R. Lacy, and O. Byers (eds.) 2006. CBSG/WAZA Amphibian Ex Situ
Conservation Planning Workshop Final Report. IUCN/SSC Conservation Breeding
Specialist Group, Apple Valley, MN 55124, USA.

And can be downloaded here: http://www.cbsg.org/reports/other.php



> I would guess that there is a bunch of required documentation as well like tracking offspring and etc, which I do a bit but have never logged it watch trends or anything of that nature. Other than for a brief time when testing tadpole foods.


Yes, there will be. ASN is reviewing existing models and is in the processing of developing the guidelines. We will try to keep the record keeping to the minium but that still may be substantial amounts of record keeping. We will have to wait and see. I'm in the same boat, as a scientist I do enough data collection at work and don't like to do it in my hobby. But for ASN I will make the sacrifice.[/quote]



> Another thing is what would determine the scale required... For example are we talking 2-3 tanks or 20? Im sure I maybe thinking a bit ahead, but my mind just does that.


This is the easy question to answer. If you have one viv that meets ASN standards, you can contribute. The idea is to provide the capacity of several zoos but spread over lots of collections. But I want to be clear that it will be some time before ASN is involved in zoo-level conservation breeding programs. We need to start with taking the animals we already have and begin managing them according to standardized guidelines. This will not only stabilize captive populations so the don't wax and wane based on popularity, but will also demonstrate that we have matured to the level needed to start saving frogs in the wild. And one last point, nobody should expect to be breeding lehmani and histrionicus through this program. The majority of amphbians that need our help are going to be "little brown jobbies". But they are still cool animals deserving our attention.


----------



## Guest (Oct 6, 2006)

Absolutely.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Done...


Blort said:


> (I think that we should split Josh's question about private sector reintroduction success and my reply. This topic has come up before and I think merits its own separate thread).


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Interesting Brent, and Ill have to read the pdf... I think if I started right now and did not stop until I go back to work on Tuesday I could get all the reading done I need to this weekend.

So what about something like a dedicate rack or wall in a frog room as opposed to a whole separate room? Again just thinking ahead, but honestly I am very interested, and would like to some day be able to work with my local zoo on such projects.


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> So what about something like a dedicate rack or wall in a frog room as opposed to a whole separate room? Again just thinking ahead, but honestly I am very interested, and would like to some day be able to work with my local zoo on such projects.


These are questions we don't yet have answers to. I think Ed will vouch that even many (most?) zoos will have trouble meeting the strictest quarantine/isolation protocols. It will likely be a case of ferreting out what is desireable vs. what is possible. Not all ASN participation levels will have to follow these strict requirements. But we also have to remember that A-Ark is the authority in charge so we will have to wait and see if ASN will be able to match their needs. Our plan is to build a system so good that they will want to use it. We are confident they will. But remember that ASN is designed to improved stewardship of animals already in captivity. The standards needed to be a steward will match the urgency of the threats to a species or group. But for those animals being managed primarily to keep them viable in captive collections (and ultimately to reduce the demand for wc animals) the quarantine standards will likely be much less stringent than for participation in other breeding programs. It is pretty safe to say that anyone would be able to find a place within ASN at some level.


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Blort said:


> The biggest things I am trying to trouble shoot are the logistics issues and things like Aaron brought up about the economic impact on those who breed commercially.


My gut says that the economic impacts on comercial breeders will be minimal for several reasons. First let's look at ASN. At the entry level will be stewards who are managing relatively common animals in the hobby according to standards. The purpose of this is to a) prevent those species or groups from becoming rare in the hobby due to lack of interest. And b) maintain the genetic integrity of the group. So those animals are already common and would continue to be distributed by the current methods (sell and trade by individuals) with the only difference that these distributions would be tracked.

At the next level will be groups that are more actively managed because they are at risk of being lost from captive collections. These will either be animals that have become rare due to lack of interest and "flavor of the month syndrome". Or they will be animals that are dang difficult to propagate in captivity. Either way, it isn't likely to impact commercial breeders because either the animals have little commercial value already, or there are few, if any, of them available commercially anyway.

Then there is the upper conservation breeding that, with luck, would fall under the A-Ark program. In that case, distribution agreements will almost certainly limit or prohibit the commercial sale of the animals or their offspring. The animals will probably not be "owned" by the stewards etc. Even ASN will likely not own the animals. In addition, most of those animals will be LBJ's with little commercial value anyway.

I think these 3 cases will constitute 99% of the involvement of ASN with animals and should have minimal impact on commercial trade of captive bred animals. But there are many details to be worked out.


----------

