# azureus and leucs



## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

I have some mixed information from a couple different people. And although one side of the info is from reliable sources I wanted to throw this out there and see what you all thought.

I'm working on finishing my 75 gal viv (this will be my first one! :lol: ). I am pretty set up D. azureus. However a big viv like that is pretty boring with just one type of frog in it. I've read all the posts about crossbreeding and destroying any eggs if species live together. Well obviously I don't want that. I want my little azureus to eat drink and be merry and have lots of babies.

On the other hand I reallyl like the leucs.

Some have told me that since leucs and azureus are far enough not related (pardon my word choice - I'm at a loss for articulation right now) that if say 3 male and 2 female azureus were housed with 4 leucs that they would all pretty much leave each other alone and make lots of babies. (Someone told me that that would be an acceptable amount of frogs for the space - correct me please if I'm wrong)

That would be idea because then I could have variety and lots of frog sex goin on. It wouldn't even bother me if the leucs were a little younger

What do you all think?

Thanks!
-Jared


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

NO NO and once again NO!
Although it is true that they may leave each other alone, it is not worth the risk of creating leuc/azureus hybrids accidentally( I have seen a picture of one, it was really sad). If you are set on having both (like I am, coincidentally), you should put a glass or acrylic divider in the middle of the tank and have both species. That would be the best solution, in my opinion.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

I'm still a little confused about the whole hybrid thing. Why is it sad? Because they are deformed? I understand wanting pure bred frogs but what is the negative to crossbred frogs - besides nobody wants to buy them?

I've searched the form and haven't found anything that just says what happens. If anybody knows where it is on the forum could you either bump it or let me know the link?

(I know that's off the original posted topic - sorry)


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

i'm in a similar boat to you. i want to set up a large tank, 75 gallon or larger. i don't want just one species in it either. i was thinking two, in fact leucs for one and not sure for the other. everybody on these board seems to always say NO NO NO ( :wink: ), but i don't always understand why. i know people wouldn't want hybrids, but wouldn't it be apparent if my frogs were hybrids? if they were, i just wouldn't sell them.

i have an african cichlid fish tank. once i had two species mix and have babies. it was obvious that they were hybrids. so, i didn't sell any of them. turns out they're the most beautiful fish in my tank now. however if two of the same species were to have babies i don't see much of a problem with selling them, though i don't sell any of my fish. i don't see much of a difference with frogs either.


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

in my opinion, it is just messing with nature and creating something that was not meant to be created. Also there are some problems later down the road that can occur, such as polluting bloodlines of pureblood frogs, and then people might sell them as a certain species, and they may look like a certain species, so you would be getting ripped off, and if you bred them, you would be further polluting the bloodlines. Its like paying for a diamond and getting zirconium. And, waaaaay later down the line, a species could become very rare or endangered, because of human interference and hybrid blood pollution. I know this would take a while, but the more hybrids you make, the further you get to this problem. Also, of course no one would buy them, and what are you going to do when you have 200 froglets to feed that no one wants to buy??
Basically, there are no immediate problems, but further down the road, it is a BIG problem, for you, the species, and other froggers that are buying frogs. I am sure there are many more experienced people that would say the same, and more. Talk to them if you are still in doubt.


Tristan

p. s. sorry if i seemed a little harsh or condescending at times, i didnt mean it, just wanted to make sure everyone understood why people frown on it


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

oh ya and this is sorta of subject, but adam that pic of the leuc on the Neo. Mariposa is really nice. I just love leucs, gonna get 5 of them in a couple months.
High fives to both of you for selecting leucs!!!


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

Thanks for the update Tristan! That's helpful!

What is everbody else's oppinion on mixing those two species in a viv (not that I don't believe you Tristan - just wanted to know everybody else's spin on things).

Thanks again!
-Jared


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

of course, the two species would probably stick to breeding with eachother, but i am sure that there would be some cross breeding, and there is the chance that two frogs of different species would become a pair, and that would be a problem, im sure you guys would agree.
While you could destroy eggs ( I personally would hate doing this, would make me too sad), it would probably be quite hard to find the eggs in such a big viv, especially if it is heavily planted. Even if you spent an hour of the day combing the viv for eggs, I bet that you would have at least one clutch of hybrid eggs that would slip through and be raised by adults to a tadpole at least once in your frogs' life. And I cant even imagine euthanizing a perfectly healthy tadpole. God id probably cry.


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## TopGunJags01 (Jul 31, 2004)

What i think is that as long as you destroy the eggs your cool. but mostly everyone doesnt think thats right and takes in defensively but as long as you keep all species blood lines clean and do not mixe breed them for sale what harm are you doing.


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## DaFrogMan (Oct 8, 2004)

twisner said:


> And I cant even imagine euthanizing a perfectly healthy tadpole. God id probably cry.


That is so true!

I agree they may not interbreed. But if they did, I don't know what I would do. Also, mixing dart species that do not live together in nature can put a lot of stress on both species.

A lot of us here at dendroboard feel that keeping these jewels comes with a responsibility. We feel that maintaining the purity of dart species is a key element of dart husbandry. We also find it important to keep them in an environment that resembles their natural habitat as closely as possible. This way we can preserve their beauty.

At least that's how I feel.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Do what you want just dont sell them if they do breed. 
If it were me and by some chance I got some dirty little half breeds I'd raise them up to see if they were pretty enough to put back in my display tank and if they weren't I would just feed them to my big mean fish!
hahaha come on thats funny.


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

i think many people are not chiming in because this has been discussed A LOT in various threads. do a search for hybrid and you can get a ton of opinions(although practically all are against). i was surprised to read that most hybridization does not occur because of cross species mate selection, but rather because males will often fertilize a clutch they find...so if any eggs were not fertilized by the original selected mate, the passerby gets his chance. the idea of re-introduction of species plays heavily into the discourse. also many factors are contributing to limit future importations, so it behooves us to behave as if that the frogs already in the hobby are the last we may ever see. besides, tank design is half the fun, so use this excuse to make more tanks! and while leucs and azureus are pretty common right now, the hobby seems to go in waves. what's common today may be really rare and saught after in a few years...appearantly the salvias morph tricolors were at one time among the most common frogs kept, but i had to do cartwheels through flaming hoops to get mine. some of the carnivorous plants i keep are totally extinct now in their now ravaged habitats, so i'm glad that folks cared enough to keep them in collections. hopefully one day we will have cleaned up our mess enough to reintroduce them into their niche, but for now i just love them and care for them the best i can. looking at trends in south america it's easy to see the frogs following close behind.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

*hybrids*

"euthanasia - The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition"

killing hybrid tadpoles or destroying hybrid spawn is not euthanasia. Anybody who decides to take the responsibility of caring for these frogs in a captive environment has no right to kill tadpoles or destroy spawn which is the result of their own carelessness, hybrids are a life brought into existance by your own actions and i find the destruction of them to be grossly wicked and reprihensible, a heinous crime. considering you forced the occurance of something which would not happen naturally in the wild you have a responsibility to care for the resulting hybrids. not allowing them to breed is fine but destroying them is wrong. 
just my two cents. i would like to hear somebody who does "euthanise" hybrid tadpoles or spawn try to justify their actions.

p.s. this is not aimed at anybody in particular but it seems clear that there are those amongst the members of this board who consider the practice of "euthanasia" on hybrids to be acceptable.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

This is GREAT everybody! I really appreciate the feedback! Very helpful. 

Does anybody have any picture of hybrid frogs? (Just out of curiosity). What do they look like?

It's great to know that there is this kind of support out there!

Thanks again,
-Jared


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

NO NO NO NO NO! Louis do not be under the impression that i kill tads. I feel just as strongly about it as you and completely agree with you on all points. Just wanted to clear that up.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Jared,

Putting aside the issue of hybridization for the moment, don't underestimate the potential for stress or worse to your frogs by mixing them. Group dynamics are complicated enough, even with frogs that can be kept in groups larger than 1:1 male:female. While experienced froggers have successfully combined certain species in a multi species viv, it is not something that I would personally recommend for a first setup. This is not meant to be a slam on newbies since I still consider myself to be a 'newbie' having less than 1 year under my belt with PDFs. My advice for what it is worth is to keep your species separated. Put a divider in your 75 gallon viv. That way you can enjoy both types of frog in the same viv without putting them at risk. If over time and with experience you still have the desire to create a multispecies environment, you will be doing so with far better perspective of their behaviors and knowledge about interspecies competition. 

While PDFs exist in nature in close proximity to many other animals, their environment is not restricted to a small glass box that even the larger vivarium represents. Even during my modest time working with PDFs, I've been amazed at the subtle and not so subtle behaviors to establish dominance, territory, etc. As an example, while our azureus pair get along fairly well, both are pretty large and aggressive frogs, even with each other and I have little doubt that they would either kick the &$#@ out of other frogs or literally starve them out by outcompeting them for food. I have to watch them pretty closely to make sure that whoever is closest to the food supply doesn't gobble it all up before the other one gets to it. They will literally knock the each other out of the way to get at flies...kind of funny to watch but I would really be concerned if a less aggressive species like leucs were in the same viv with them.

Just something to consider. 

Bill


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## rattler_mt (Apr 15, 2005)

if i went to the trouble of obtaining bloodlines from certain breeders i really would want to keep them seperate. however the bloodline argument kinda goes away if you buy your darts from some of the retail outlets. i know Black Jungle resells other breeders frogs.

on the hybrid issue, if you want to breed your frogs and are really interested in doing it only do species and locale type tanks. with a 75 gal, depending on how far along you are in the build its easy enough to divide. you can help mask the division by taking a good sized log you are going to use and sawing it in half than siliconing it so that it apears to go through the divider. same can probably be done with good sized rocks depending on type if you have stone workers in your area that have saws that can slice through different types of rocks.

another alternitive i was thinking off for a large tank was to add a Hylid as a tank mate. Hyla leucophyllata seems like a really good colorful and appropriate sized candidate to me and are from the same general region as Tincs and such


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

Bill,

That's helpful thank you! I think everybody has pretty much convinced me to stay with one species for now. And I would say that I'm pretty much set on D. azureus. So that's two things out of the way. And I feel good about my decisions.

The other question I have is:

Some say make sure you get pairs and perhaps have one more male than female.

Some tell me get like 6 froglets (which is like 98% to get a pair and raise them from young'uns. I kind of like that idea better because then I can "raise" them and learn everything before they start breeding.

What do you all think?

-Jared


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## rattler_mt (Apr 15, 2005)

a group of youngins is a great idea. only caution is set up a nursery tank. azureus 2-3 weeks out of water are really lil and i didnt want to turn mine loose in a 10 gal. my 2 lil bitty azure us are bolder than my tincs which are over twice their size. very cool frog and i plan on getting more of this species


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

jared,
i think both bits of advice are correct. most folks sell frogs which are too young to sex. azureus seems to be the exception to the rule, with pairs frequently available. for the other species, since you are most often buying unsexable frogs, you buy 4-8ish frogs and raise them until they are old enough to sex. then you pick out your pair/s and sell or trade the remainders. actually leucs(along with arautus and a few others) are also and exception to the rule in that lots of people keep groups of them together without problems.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

Sweet - Thanks! I think that's what I'm gonna do. I think I'm gonna get like 6-8 azureus froglets and go from there. I've also heard that there are less problems with froglets raised together.

-Jared


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

I've studied a lot of evolutionary biology, formally and informally, and personally I think the concern about hybrids is way overblown. First of all, the whole concept of "species" is very poorly defined in biology right now; if two "species" can interbreed and produce viable offspring, who's to say they are a separate species to begin with? Phylogenetically, it really becomes a question of how great a resolution we want to give to the species tree. 

Of course that's a gross simplification, but it's something to think about. Many of these frogs, particularly tincs and pumilio, show so much geographical polymorphism that each clade seems to be undergoing constant little upstarts down the road to speciation, perhaps hanging on by nothing less than a little bit of back-hybridization every so often to maintain reproductive compatability. It may be that a few millennia down the line, citronellas won't be able to breed with cobalts. The gene pool is obviously very tumultuous, and I haven't been able to find any studies on gene flow in the wild among the metapopulations of any of these morphs. But to pretend that hybrization is horribly unnatural is very presumptuous, I think. Frankly, evolution doesn't like purebreds - recessives tend to start to pop up.

And if hybridization occurs in captivity just because males find clutches and decide to try and fertilize them, then you can be sure it happens at least occasionally in the wild with species that have overlapping ranges. Moreover, the fact that more than one distinct "species" exists at all in a given habitat strongly suggests an evolved predisposition to avoid hybridization, likely either because hybrids are less viable or more likely to be killed before reproducing. Think of bicolor and terribilis, or any of the little thumbnails that overlap. There are reasons why they remain distinct, and it's not chance. Hybridization may even be a natural precursor to speciation, in some cases. It's too simple to think of it as a unilaterally "evil" occurrence.

Now, of course a vivarium setting is different - movement and microhabitats are limited, and the forced association may be an especially important factor when you are mixing species that don't naturally overlap, like azureus and leucs, etc. And the stress issues are extremely important - you have to know what you're doing to prevent cramping and stress on the frogs. But the existence of a few hybrids isn't going to ruin the pure lines of any frogs, any more than mutts have taken over the world of the labrador retriever. And if we're all so worried about the purity and quality of blood lines, a potentially much bigger concern for long-term viability is inbreeding, with which very few people seem to have a serious problem. What if, a couple decades down the line, everybody's frogs start dying because deleterious recessives are popping up left and right?

I'm not advocating hybrids - I like the look of each species as it is, the conservation concerns about the maintenance of distinct wild morphs and species is very real and admirable, and it's not our place to go creating new frogs by crossing distant branches of the dendrobates tree. My experience housing darts together (I always house frogs as distantly related as possible, ie thumbs with tincs or azureus, or dendrobates/phyllobates, or yes, leucs and azureus) has never yielded a hybrid. I'm sure it can happen, but I'm suspicious that it's that common. And if someone produces a hybrid that they like, and want to raise, so what? And if a frog comes out that's a hybrid but looks identical to one morph or the other, and breeds true that way, I'd argue that may damn well be a good thing for the gene pool. 

If each and every pure bred frog needs to be maintained with as much reverance and care as we can give it (and I heartily believe that) why are people selling animals to six year olds at expos? 

My position in nutshell: be careful, be reasonable, be realistic. I'm ready for a shitstorm, now....


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

BRAVO! BRAVO! From everything that I have learned (and I'm not saying it's much) I think that you hit the nail on the head. I really appreciate your forwardness about it!

Thank you for taking the time to write that - t was very informatable!

God created a bunch of animals (not that i'm trying to get into a creation vs. evolution debate) and some of these were able to breed with each other then why is it ultimately "evil"? (more of a retorical question)

I think that since I'm still a newbie I'll do one species at a time but I really liked your input!!

-Jared


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

As someone new to the hobby, definitely take it one at a time for starters, until you really know the frogs, can tell what a "stressed" frog is, and what situations might lead to it, etc. Also you want to be familiar with breeding behavior, etc. As an addendum, I'd only *ever* mix species in a really big vivarium, at least 75 gallons (if I'm housing frogs together, my vivs are usually 4' longx2'deepx4' high).

Thanks for your compliments, and for reading.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Jared, 
I agree with some people's position that this question has been beat to a pulp, but here is my opinion. There are a ton of reasons why is not a good idea to mix and you can read those arguments in the other threads. You will not find much support for the mixing/hybrid position on this board or in the dart frog community. I am not going to say that this is wrong or hurts the species and the hobby, because that has all been said in those threads and you can read it for yourself. I’m also not going to address whether or not it happens in the wild, but what goes on in the small microenvironments we maintain. I am also not going to argue the merits of whether or not we would be able to take the animals and use them to reestablish wild populations. I just want to address mixing species in a vivarium and the possibility of hybrids

It really is your choice to mix species, especially species such as leucs and azureus that are known to hybridize. If you get hybrids, the frog police are not going to kick in your door and arrest you and confiscate the frogs. As someone else stated, when people become caretakers of these or any animals there is a certain responsibility that goes with it. I am assuming that we are all responsible individuals and want to do the right thing for ourselves, the animals we care for, and the hobby. There are just a couple things you should think about and some questions you should be able to answer before mixing any species that can hybridize. 

If you get eggs from the group, or suddenly see a male carrying tads on his back (very likely in a big tank) are you prepared to destroy the eggs or euthanize the tads, because you have no idea who laid those eggs and who fertilized them. You have to assume that every clutch is a hybrid, and it is a lot easier to cull eggs and tads than healthy froglets. Over the years I have had to euthanize frogs or froglets that were deformed or had other problems and it is tough, even though it was absolutely the right thing to do. It has got to be even harder if the frogs are healthy.

So then the counter points to the no mixing & hybrids usually are …..1) Let me see if they are hybrids or 2) even if they are hybrids, I’ll keep the offspring and raise and keep them myself or 3) Zoos mix species, why shouldn’t I ? Let me address number 1 again. You have to assume that EVERY offspring is a hybrid. It is the only responsible thing to do. The froglets might look like one species or another but as they mature over the next year the pattern could change, or color etc. You just do not know. So the assumption going in is that they are all hybrids

To address response number 2 “even if they are hybrids, I’ll keep the offspring and raise and keep them myself”. In 2004 from one pair of leucs, I got 67 froglets. If we use the numbers given initially as an example (4 leucs & 5 azureus: 4 total pairs) I would say that a conservative estimate at the end of 2 years would be 100 hybrid offspring from this group. As a responsible individual, would you be able to house and care for 100 additional animals that no one wanted plus all of their offspring?

For number 3 : Zoos are a completely different case. They have a lot more experience and resources than the average hobbyist. They generally do not mix species that can hybridize (although I have seen some who do) and will not hesitate to euthanize hybrids in the event this happens. 

My final point is even if you are prepared to care for all these hybrid animals, what about the conditions you have no control over? Take a look at the classified ads for the past year or so, just get a feel for how many people had to sell all or most of their collections. These people are all responsible hobbyists who for one reason or another had to either get out of the hobby completely or significantly reduce the amount of time they were spending in it. Maintaining 100 frogs takes a lot of time and sacrifice! Despite the tremendous passion and enthusiasm many people have for this hobby, for most of us it still remains a hobby. So when life events happen outside of it, often the hobby suffers. I am not waxing philosophic here but it is something you should think of before starting down the path towards hybridization. The oldest frog I have, I have had since 1998. The person I got that frog from is still in the hobby, but many others who were around then are not now. I hope I am in this hobby 10 - 20 years from now, I think we all do, but “stuff” happens and that “stuff” should be considered before even considering the possibility of producing hybrids. How easy would it be to give away those animals to people who understood that they could never sell them, never breed them, and so on

Bill has a great suggestion for sharing the tank with 2 species, without mixing them. I also know of someone who has all males in an enclosure, and that works for him, but you still have some of the issues Bill raised. 

Louis, 
I agree with your position, the use of the word euthanasia in these discussions is a PC way of dealing with the need or potential need to kill healthy animals. I have never mixed species, so have not had to deal with the hybrid issue myself. If no one ever mixed species that could hybridize, there would never be the need to kill or even talk about killing these animals. That is why people are so passionate about this and a major point for the argument against mixing species, which can then lead to hybridization. People are not casually recommending killing these frogs, it is an extreme position to take, but what are the alternatives for these animals? I read one time that the average hobbyist sticks with this for only a few years. These frogs can easily live 10. There is not now and hopefully will never be a market for hybrid PDFs. So what are people going to do with them if they choose or are forced to exit the hobby? Give them away or sell them? To who? Sell them as a new species? Hopfully not!! Let them go?? Hopefully not that either!!

The same could be said for the tens of thousands of perfectly healthy dogs and cats that are humanely euthanized (killed) every day. If 99.9% of people spayed or neutered their pets then maybe the only animals in shelters would be those where there caretakers had one of the life events I spoke of earlier and had to make one of the most difficult decisions in their lives: giving up a beloved pet. Unfortunately, I do not think that this will ever happen, so we as a society have to deal with the very unfortunate ramifications of those decisions. 

The herp industry is the same way…. Think about all the people who buy Burmese or reticulated pythons, sulcattas tortises, crocodilians, alligator snappers, etc. There is an unfortunate percentage of people who have no idea what they are going to do with these animals 3, 5, 10 years in the future when they mature, or get to a "difficult" size. They worry about it when they get a 15 foot snake, or an 80 lb tortoise then they say….. what should I do now????? 

I think that the dart frog community does a pretty good job of policing our ranks (it is growing so fast that may be hard to do soon) And I think it is very admirable that when a new person asks the question about hybrids, that they are told what is acceptable in the community, they can do what you want, but recognize that they may have to make a very hard decision if they choose this path. I also think that the majority of dart frog vendors are very conscientious and care a lot about where their animals are going. Maybe I’m just biased. 

I did not want to single anyone out here or argue with anyone, and I’m sorry for the long post, but people should make informed decisions. After that it is up to them. 

I’ll get off the soapbox now! 

Ed


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

Ed,

First of all THANK you for taking the time to write all of that! Wow! It was terrific!

Firstly I really appreciate the support of the frogging community (especially those who are willing to take the time to explain all of this). I can very much understand the frustration of those who have been doing this for a while with the "newbie" questions - and even perhaps the irrational and perhaps immature steps some people could take to get started too quickly and take one more than one could handle. I also acknowledge the difference between PDF's and perhaps getting a pet dog.

As much as I truly hate having to sound so naive I would hate just as much to get involved in something with which I felt some of my understanding was a gray area.

I have done a bunch of searching for the whole "hybrid controversy" and I feel that this has been the best explanation! I would not want to be put in the situation where I would have to kill a bunch of frogs just as much as I wouldn't want to love a bunch of 3 legged puppies and have nobody want them if I couldn't keep them. So that's a great argument. Again, thanks!

I see a tight knit group of people out there who really work together to maintain a very rare hobby and besides that fact that I really dig the frogs and the whole experience (from vivarium, to plants, to culturing the food, to maintaining a rain forest balance in my living room) it makes it even more appealing to know that if I have a question or problem people are out there to answer my questions. And hopefully sometime soon I'll be able to help the next group.

So I guess that's just a long winded thank you. And I just want you, Ed, and everybody else out there that even though I'm new and sound "dumb" I'm looking forward to the community!

Thanks again!
Jared


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

here is the photo you were looking for....

this particular photo is of a azureus / luec hybrid


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2005)

He's actually pretty cool looking! (not that I'm saying it's worth it) But cool looking nonetheless.

Thanks!


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

kinda interesting how that came from parents that are yellow, black, and blue!


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2005)

you can see the similarity it the markings though, very similar to luecs


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2005)

i know i sound like a complete idiot next to all these people... but the frog doesnt look deformed in any way... Is there anything about hybridizing that can have a real negative outcome on the animal? just curious..


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

I suggest in my opinion that you stay away from hybridization all in all. Yah they may look like the most amazing think in the world and the frogs will create offspring with whoever they can due to evolution and passing on your genes. BUT when you are seperated and it is never meant to be and you never would ever see a diff. frog what is the point. It is looked down upon by everybody pretty much and no ones going to hate you if you do decide to do this but i dont think many people would like to buy your frgos due to the fact that there is a chance it is a hybrid.

This is a good hybrid thread without too many problems  Finnally


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2005)

I personally am not about to cage two different species in the same tank, i can obviously tell the hybrids are frowned upon by the majority of serious froggers. 

Reasons I have heard are mostly keeping the gene pools seperated so in further down the line we will still have "clean" species in captivity that might not exist in the wild.

I have not heard of any negative effects that the offspring will have, but thats just what i have heard. 

Dont get me wrong, im not planning or condoning hybrids simply stating what ive seen from the discussions on this board.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

never put more than one female Azureus & or Tinc in the same tank.
as for cross breeding im not sure yet how I feel about it.
for a personal i think it would cool to have a Yellow & black Auratus Ive seen pictures. 

the problem begins when you get to many then what happens . Not many people like Hybrids. And you dont even know for sure what theywill look like
they maybe completely ugly.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2005)

I am new to PDFs and after I read this article I have to wonder if there is a species that varies greatly in apperance. So that one could have variety in the viv but still have only one species. 

I am particularly fond of azureus and plan to keep a pair but I sometimes have a tendancy to over-do things so there may be a larg viv in my future (speaking of that I have a red devil ciclid that is bound and determined to find out what is on the other side of the glass so I may have a 75g breader with a broken wall some day).


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2005)

*reply*

ed, i read your post and found it interesting, your point about dogs and cats is a good one but i have to say that although i dont approve of putting down a healthy animal i also dont approve of neutering any animal unless it has already produced young. i know there are a lot of people who passionately disagree with this but i dont think i or anybody else has the right to stop an animal from reproducing. rather than neutering pets i think it should just be much harder to own an animal so that only people really willing and able to take responsibilit for them can obtain them, but i also realise that this is not likely.


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