# What drives up a price tag on a frog?



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I have seen many diff. species(pretaining to newts/sals/and darts) being sold at very high costs. This is usually the result of rarity that the cost goes up. I can see both good and bad in this. 

The good:

Professionals are most likely to end up with them. This is good, due to *proven* ability to maintain and breed frogs at a professional level.

The bad:

The price of some of these species is so high that 90% of keepers simply can't even afford to try and populate the hobby with CB examples. I think there are many keepers(particularly those who do not frequent forums) that are more than capable of breeding some of the ridiculously high priced species. 

I think that high costs does more to keep a species rare, and does little to actually help CB population densities.

I want to be clear, I understand what a return on investment is, but once you break even, how ahead do you need to get? 

If the species is a rarity and you have made your return profit, why not choose to sell them at a reasonable price to people who have demonstrated ability to care for darts on all levels, and not sell them at expos? This would do more for the species well being than farming them at expos to Johnny Knows Crap, but has $100's to spend on impulse. 

*I am not speaking from a position that I think I am capable of taking on these rarities*, in fact I am quite new. I do however know many people who do not come to these forums, but are exceptional keepers and have been breeding darts since they were available. A lot of those friends are not rich, and work hard to earn. Should these highly skilled keepers be denied the chance to contribute to a species based on cost and not ability?

I would love to hear any comments, and also, this thread was talking primarily about the pumilio's, and some other high enders...

Thanks!

JBear


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

pumilio arent really "high end" frogs IMO. they are almost all at or around $100 ea. there are plenty of darts that fetch from $500-$1500 a piece. 

as has been mentioned many times before, this isnt really a hobby for those who dont like to spend money.

mostly its about supply and demand, and it really is that simple. pumilio need to be tank raised and cant ship until 6 months or so. they also, and more importantly, are not going to produce 100+ froglets a year (like a leuc, or tinc pair could) therefore they are more expensive. frogs that produce less are worth more.

and most folks i know with "high end" frogs (i'll call that anything $250ea or more) are just as likely, if not more, to trade as they are to sell. 

james


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## Flying_Kip (Jan 3, 2011)

jbherpin said:


> Professionals are most likely to end up with them. This is good, due to *proven* ability to maintain and breed frogs at a professional level.


I don't know about the US, but here in Europe this isn't all true.
Dartfrogs (and other reptiles/amphibians) are sometimes considered collectable items. People with alot of money will readily buy a more expensive frog to show-off with. Last year we had alot of WC tinctorius imports and some UnderStory frogs imports aswell (Benedicta,...)
All those frogs were pretty expensive for european standards. (Tincs normally going for 25-50euro/each ($30-$70) were suddently 170-250euro/each ($230-$330). The benedicta's were even more expensive. Going at 395euro/each ($540/each).

But I know alot of more experienced breeds that didn't buy them and said they'd rather wait for F1 or rich people to buy them only to sell them after a half year or something for a lower price. 

Don't get me wrong, alot of people that were more experienced also bought them, but I've seen numerous of these WC & imported frogs go to waste because some rich beginner wanted them because everybody else wanted them aswell.

I just think it's suppy&demand that decides the price. 
If a specie breeds easily/in large quantities, it will be cheaper.
If it doesn't breed that easily or only a few juvi's a year, it will be more expensive.

But in the end it will all be up what the new owner is willing to pay for it. 

Grtz,
Thomas


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Many just continue selling the offspring for what they are worth as you never really break even. With viv maintanance, culturing and other things not to mention future purchases why not sell the frog for what its worth or trade it for an equal value and do your part not to drive down prices to where the frogs are looked at as a beginer frog or practice frog. We have enough of those already. I also think blindly selling them to people not knowing if they are capable of taking care of the frog no matter the price is crazy too. I help all who I can but it seems to me the only people who complain about this are the ones end up doing the same as everyone else once they actually get the frogs. Its easy for anyone to complain about prices but I havent seen you guys buying up $150-$200 reticulata and other commonly pricey frogs, breeding them and then selling them for $50 each. Everyone changes their minds when the froglets up for sale are their own.

Michael


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

That's why trading is so much more fun.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I sell my Varadero's for $60 which is about half what I paid.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Jbear,

There is definitely a profit motive at work for some in the hobby (there are no doubt people in the hobby mostly for the thought of how much money can be made). The down-side of the cash incentives in the hobby is that many of the most wonderful species/morphs are not being propagated in good numbers because there isn't much profit in raising them. Where once D.t. Azureus sold for very high amounts, they are now inexpensive frogs to acquire and not many people breed them in quantity anymore.

Personally, I think many of the new frogs to the market are highly over-priced. If you just wait a few years, they almost always come down to a more affordable price. Unless you have a great deal of extra money lying around, there's nothing wrong with being patient and waiting for the prices to come down to something approaching reasonable.

Take care, Richard.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Ray,

Yes, yes, YES!! I am a great fan of trading frogs with other hobbyists. It is the best way to get to know other froggers, acquire frogs that you'd like to work with, and keep a bit more money in the bank account!!

Take care, Richard.



stemcellular said:


> That's why trading is so much more fun.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I offered one of my pairs to Bill for 10k. He's thinking it over


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I also have a tendency to either give (or sell/trade for next to nothing) frogs to folks who I want to see working with whatever species I'm breeding, esp when it comes to those not currently preferred by the majority of keepers. It acts as a bit of an incentive to encourage folks to work with the less than popular species.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I have been willing to cut people good deals in the past (especially newbies working with appropriate frogs) - but I *never* (EVER) give frogs away.

People only seem to value what they pay for. Even if it is not as much as might be normal.

I take that back - I've given a few frogs away, it has happened when I end up with a lone frog (partner has died or such) and I know someone local who might need it. Even then it ends up as more of a trade than a gift. 

s


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## Newt1 (Feb 25, 2007)

I think what flying_kip said is true

I just think it's Supply & Demand that decides the price. 
If a specie breeds easily/in large quantities, it will be cheaper.
If it doesn't breed that easily or only a few juvi's a year, it will be more expensive.
Also what is popular is more money (supply)
And people have less money to spend now with the way the economy is(demand)

Steve


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I guess I'll just copy over my response from dfz to here too...


"I don't have any problem with letting the market determine the price, even though that means I don't have access to some of the species that I really want and think I could do well with like Benedicta. What I would like to see though is people with rarer animals not just give them to who can pay the price but make an effort to screen keepers and sell them to ones likely to do well with them and perpetuate them in the hobby. If that means selling an animal to someone over someone else when both are willing to pay the same price or cutting someone a break because they can't afford them then ok, or even seeking out keepers you think might do well with them and offer them some of your stock at a discount. I think some keepers do all these things and thats great, I hope it becomes more common. 

One of the most common justifications for high price is that more experienced/serious people are likely to be the buyers, so I'd just like people to be true to that and try to make sure best they can (within reason) that the buyers genuinely are good people for the animals to go to, and not just rely on their ability to pay a high price to determine that. There are of course morons out there or just inexperienced keepers with tons of cash to throw around and experienced people who are very short on funds. One thing people could at least do is try to find a balance. If you've got 10 offspring of something ok maybe sell 5-6 for as much as you can get from them but maybe cut a few other people deals if they seem like really good people to get those animals.

I'd also like to see people with rarer animals hold back more offspring and sell adults or sexed pairs/groups of animals. Some do this and I applaud them, others though I think are afraid if they don't get the offspring out the door fast they won't recoup their investment fast enough...if ever. I'm not a huge fan of that thinking...I get it but I think that should be of lesser concern, and would like to see the motivations for buying/keeping/breeding more about the love for the animal and helping to perpetuate it in the hobby not make your money back asap. Perhaps thats unrealistic though."
As an added note...

I've had frogs given to me, according to the giver "in part because of the Ice storm tragedy and for my contributions to the forums". I can tell you those frogs will receive excellent care as that meant a lot to me and I owe the person that much at least. They may be my frogs now but I feel a certain extra responsibility to do right by them and the previous owner. I think that would be a pretty common sentiment of people who receive free frogs or in exchange for a few plants or cultures, etc...etc... Perhaps if I get a pair out of those frogs or as I rebuild my collection and get others breeding I'll be able to "pay it forward" ...Thats the plan


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Where once D.t. Azureus sold for very high amounts, they are now inexpensive frogs to acquire and not many people breed them in quantity anymore.


Right, they are easy to breed so a lot hit the market. Couple that with the fact people wanted to drive the price down and voila "rat frog" that people no longer take seriously.

It's really sad actually and far too common.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Chris Miller said:


> Right, they are easy to breed so a lot hit the market. Couple that with the fact people wanted to drive the price down and voila "rat frog" that people no longer take seriously.
> 
> It's really sad actually and far too common.


The frogs I mentioned that were given to me were Azureus  No rat frog in my book. Still one of the most impressive frogs in the hobby IMO.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Not to me either, but it's the general consensus. That is really the only frog that is actively bred to produce an artificial morph.

I will also agree that different people get deals on frogs and some offspring aren't available to just anyone off the street. Plus, I'm more likely to trade the truly rare stuff (benedicta aren't rare but they get traded too).


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Thank you ALL so much for sharing your opinions! I was hoping people would chime in with their views!

JBear


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

People are charging high rates for some frogs, true, but like with everything the seller does not determine the peak purchase price...the buyer does. If the seller asks a price that is higher than the market can bear there is no purchase made.

Now someone can charge much less than the market will bear out of the kindness of their hearts, and that can drive down the asking price all around...but I've also seen criticism on these board when someone undercuts everyone's prices drastically and devalues an animal.

Complicating this is the fact that people often approach the purchase from a "business" frame of mind, seeing frogs as an investment with a return, so they are willing to spend much more than they would have with a pet.

Blah Blah Blah

Bottom line - Approach the hobby as a hobby, not a business. If someone is overpricing a frog, don't buy it. Animals make unreliable investments. Trade when you can. If you have froglets, charge what you think they are worth. Those are some of the keys to avoiding burnout.


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## camlov2 (Dec 8, 2010)

Sidebar-
I come from a background of reef tanks and the prices I have seen so far don't seem out of line. In that hobby many of the fish can be found cheaper then the frogs here but the corals seem to be 10 times as expensive as the plants for our vivs. The overall cost to setup a complete system is a small fraction of what a reef tank cost. 

It is all supply and demand. If we take care of our frogs and breed them we should be able to increase the supply. End result, less demand, lower prices.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Boondoggle said:


> Now someone can charge much less than the market will bear out of the kindness of their hearts, and that can drive down the asking price all around...but I've also seen criticism on these board when someone undercuts everyone's prices drastically and devalues an animal.
> 
> 
> > Boondoggle-
> ...


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

jbherpin said:


> If someone is selling way under the asking price of others it speaks volumes that many are in it for the $ return and not for the benefit of captive frog pops. I don't see an animal readily available as devalued. I think it is and should be a source of pride to hobbiests. If a rare frog comes into the hobby rare, and in turn made readily available, that means specimens will assuredly be on hand as representatives years from now. That should make everyone who is working with species not readily available happy after the work they did pays out in the frogs interest. Take Azureus for example. They are not soon to die off the planet are they?


I don't think just because someone sells frogs for less than another person means that the people who ask more are in it for the money at all. With any frog that produces a lot of offspring, the supply will increase rapidly and drive the prices down. It may not be quickly or significant amounts, but the prices will eventually come down. Take your example, azureus- they breed easily and you go from $100+ animals to $25 froglets. 
However, frogs that do not produce as rapidly are different. For example, if Chris sold some of his beautiful new histos for $60 each, how would that get them more established in the hobby? It doesn't matter who would then be able to buy them, because he doesn't have nearly enough to sell to every person who now wants one. Regardless of how many hobbyists can afford to purchase them, they will not be any more established in the hobby than they would if they were traded or sold for $500 each because the same number of frogs would be sold. Making a frog "more readily available" does not just mean lowering the prices for some people- most importantly, it means making enough frogs available for the demand. 
The frogs will be sold for whatever the customer pays. If nobody will pay that much, then the seller would have to lower the prices- but this is only possible if the seller has enough animals.
Bryan


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

jbherpin said:


> Boondoggle-
> 
> I know you were speaking generally, and this is in no way an attack on you, be sure of that..
> 
> If someone is selling way under the asking price of others it speaks volumes that many are in it for the $ return and not for the benefit of captive frog pops. I don't see an animal readily available as devalued.


Yep, JBear, I completely agree with you. When I said "devalue" I was really just referring to the literal fiscal value of the animal and not it's actual worth. Also, I don't completely agree with the people who criticize the "under-cutters". I suppose I might feel different if I was making a living off the frogs, but every personal friend I have knows that if they want I will help them set up a tank and start them out with some free froglets (many have).

After almost losing my shirt years ago on "investment quality reptiles", I've learned that best way to start hating your hobby is to make it your job. I find the less I keep track of any profit/loss, the happier I am...and isn't that why we all do this ultimately?

Believe me, you do not want to be the guy stressing because the $1200 pair of producing frogs you charged on a credit card aren't producing for you, and the clock is ticking.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

stemcellular said:


> I also have a tendency to either give (or sell/trade for next to nothing) frogs to folks who I want to see working with whatever species I'm breeding, esp when it comes to those not currently preferred by the majority of keepers. It acts as a bit of an incentive to encourage folks to work with the less than popular species.


ray feel free to start sending me all the frogs people consider "ugly", id be happy to start working with them  



i think a big problem is people over producing frogs. if you think about how many eggs you can get from azureus when they are laying 5+ eggs a week because the owner keeps pulling them, your gonna have a flooded market. id rather just let the frogs deal with it, then they lay less, and you have less to worry about.

now thats not to say all frogs should be like that. when i see uakarii eggs, i pull them. but they are a somewhat rare frog, so we need more. whereas varaderos, i havent pulled in like 8 months because everybody got them and had good luck with them.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

stemcellular said:


> I also have a tendency to either give (or sell/trade for next to nothing) frogs to folks who I want to see working with whatever species I'm breeding, esp when it comes to those not currently preferred by the majority of keepers. It acts as a bit of an incentive to encourage folks to work with the less than popular species.


Very good ethic/advice.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

thedude said:


> i think a big problem is people over producing frogs. if you think about how many eggs you can get from azureus when they are laying 5+ eggs a week because the owner keeps pulling them, your gonna have a flooded market. id rather just let the frogs deal with it, then they lay less, and you have less to worry about.
> 
> now thats not to say all frogs should be like that. when i see uakarii eggs, i pull them. but they are a somewhat rare frog, so we need more. whereas varaderos, i havent pulled in like 8 months because everybody got them and had good luck with them.


I agree 100%. Anyone who has been in the hobby for several years can name at least one species that has had a major popularity swing, think tricolors, terribilis, aurotaenia, dwarf cobalts and other old school tincs. Fundamentally, this comes down to monetary value of frogs in the hobby. When frogs lose value, people dump them. Which always ends up narrowing the genetic diversity. While gouging and fixing are wrong and unethical, oversupply and extreme low prices have actually done damage to the hobby. 

Pricing and supply is a delicate balance that one takes the responsibility of maintaining when he or she decides to raise and distribute froglets.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Chris Miller said:


> When frogs lose value, people dump them.


Hi Chris

And where do they end up? I've been curious about this. They must go somewhere, but they seem to vanish...

Thoughts?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

From what I've witnessed, they typically end up in the hands of someone less experienced, and stop producing/die. IE auros.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> Hi Chris
> 
> And where do they end up? I've been curious about this. They must go somewhere, but they seem to vanish...
> 
> Thoughts?


If its anything like the reptile market than people dump them cheaply to wholesalers who sell them to the general publlic who doesn't have the knowledge or interest to breed them. Therefore less new offspring and the species population in captivity contracts dramaticly.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Well that just sucks guys!

They could try and find a more experienced hobbiest that is willing to work with them...

Do people keep them for profit or to enjoy?


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

frogfreak said:


> Do people keep them for profit or to enjoy?


Both, usually in inverse proportions.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> Well that just sucks guys!
> 
> They could try and find a more experienced hobbiest that is willing to work with them...
> 
> Do people keep them for profit or to enjoy?


I think people start out as a hobby but then see the profit potential and thats when some peoples motivation and goals take a change. The best advice I got in the hobby was almost 20 years ago from one of the true old timers.

"Never keep or attempt to sell anything you wouldn't own yourself and never worry about making money"


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

What honestly drives up the prices are the hobbyists. To put more attention on one species over another is all it takes. Keep in mind that this supposed hobby is pretty much a collaboration of small business's which is how the reptile hobby got to where it is. Id like to think we put more science and teaching up front than other herpers do though.
You will never stop the interest in a profit. In order for a breeder to make a profit they have to breed the frogs which puts more of them into the hobby which lowers the price or value of that frog. Like I said before the only time I see this subject pop up is when someone cant afford or get a hold of the frog they want whether they are experienced enough to take it on or not. And like everyone else once they get that frog the idea of dropping the prices to give others a deal go's away. Everyone complained about the price of the veradero's until they got their own, now they want to know how they got to be so cheap and want to move onto the next fad.

Michael


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

"Practice frogs" "rat frogs" ? ? ? ... I guess I'm still new/young enough in the hobby that these concepts just seem ridiculous. Naturally I hope my frogs breed, and I will ultimately end up selling/trading off the young because I can't keep hundreds of frogs in my condo, but the motivation is to witness the life cycle first hand. 

For those of you here that do sell a lot of frogs, what is your ultimate goal? Are you trying to recoup your original investment? Are you just wanting to use the money to buy more frogs? (seems right to me!) 

also, what do y'all think the ultimate goal of the hobby should be collectively? I'd like to think that by sharing experience and expanding the hobby to more people, we can further the "green" effort and slow down our species' path of destruction on the planet. 

I don't want to live in a world that doesn't have blue frogs. It just doesn't sound fun.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

> I don't want to live in a world that doesn't have blue frogs.


That is sig worthy!

I'm slowly trying to get my nieces into PDFs. Really, the only obstacle is their parents, so, I guess it's the parents I'm working on. 

If it works out, my plan is to get them a nice, big, Azureus. Not because it's cheap, but, because it's the most beautiful frog I've ever seen and I know they would love it.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

btcope said:


> For those of you here that do sell a lot of frogs, what is your ultimate goal? Are you trying to recoup your original investment? Are you just wanting to use the money to buy more frogs? (seems right to me!)
> 
> also, what do y'all think the ultimate goal of the hobby should be collectively? I'd like to think that by sharing experience and expanding the hobby to more people, we can further the "green" effort and slow down our species' path of destruction on the planet.


I sell a fair number of frogs, and my goal, which I put on my website is:



> After being in the frog hobby and watching what happens to frogs with the popularity booms and busts, I decided the best thing that people could do for frogs would be to focus on some group of species and secure their place in the hobby.
> 
> That's exactly what we've tried to do:* gather up old and new bloodlines of thumbnails, register them with TWI's Amphibian Steward Network and then produce them in sustainable numbers for release into the hobby.* Along the way we hope to develop and disseminate improved care routines for the keeping and breeding of thumbnail frogs and have a good time. After all, these are truly amazing creatures.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

btcope said:


> "Practice frogs" "rat frogs" ? ? ? ... I guess I'm still new/young enough in the hobby that these concepts just seem ridiculous.


Don't lose that mentality, those concepts are ridiculous.

My first frogs, most common frogs, cheapest frogs, and favorite frogs happen to all be the same frogs.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

poison beauties said:


> ...Like I said before the only time I see this subject pop up is when someone cant afford or get a hold of the frog they want whether they are experienced enough to take it on or not...
> 
> Michael


I thought in my original post I made it clear this was not a selfish thread. I do not want to take on these high priced species. It is not for lack of $, but lack of experience. Why would I want to take on an animal that needs/deserves high level experience when I would just do more to hurt the population by failing to breed, or even worse, failing period? I KNOW that others are perfectly capable, and yet they have no opportunity to contribute any success due to the cost of these frogs. That is simply how I feel.

JBear


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## camlov2 (Dec 8, 2010)

So many people say they are not in it for the money, they only breed to....
grow the hobby, reduce wild caught frogs, or some other important reason.

Here is an idea-
Breed a high demand frog, sell them for $25 each, but require buyers to submit a resume to insure that the frogs go to a place where they are likely to thrive/survive. 

There is nothing wrong with making a profit, just don't make excuses for it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Uhh, yeah...It's all about the profit. Easy money. That's why so many frog breeders are millionaires on the Forbes top 40 list. They take month long vacations while their huge crew of employees do the REAL work! Few people realize that The Donald's REAL money comes from raising tadpoles.

Frog breeding is a Labor of Love. It is time intensive and it doesn't profit nearly what some of you think it does. For those of you who just want to enjoy your $35 Azureus, by all means, do so. But remember it was frog breeders who knocked that price down to $35 when they used to cost $500 each! And maybe cut em a break while they work hard to establish other frogs in the hobby. Maybe through their work you'll be able to someday buy a Varadero or a Benedicta for $35 too.
That's my two cents on the subject!
Doug


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

camlov2 said:


> Here is an idea-
> Breed a high demand frog, sell them for $25 each, but require buyers to submit a resume to insure that the frogs go to a place where they are likely to thrive/survive.


Thank you, this exactly what I am talking about!

JBear


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

camlov2 said:


> So many people say they are not in it for the money, they only breed to....
> grow the hobby, reduce wild caught frogs, or some other important reason.
> 
> Here is an idea-
> ...


There are a lot of people who do, they just don't advertise it. It can be dangerous to the longterm wellbeing of frogs in the hobby if done willy nilly especially without changing the culture of herp keeping first.


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## ghutch0203 (Jun 13, 2010)

Im not currently breeding anything right now but have talked to many people who are breeding these "expensive" frogs and its not always easy. Why would you want to go through all that hard work and time to just sell these frogs to every Tom,Dick and Harry that walks through the door for 25 bucks! If everyone breeding obligate egg feeders or thumbnails did this you can bet you a** we wouldnt have many of these frogs left. Not frogs that just anyone can care for. You think a R. flavovittata or D. pumilio "pope island" or Escudo's are that easy for everyone to breed and just hand out to who ever has 25 bucks? Thats crazy! Why is it people always B**** about frog prices but no one complains about paying 400 for a tremper leopard gecko or 1000 for a certain colored ball python!


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I thought in my original post I made it clear this was not a selfish thread. I do not want to take on these high priced species. It is not for lack of $, but lack of experience. Why would I want to take on an animal that needs/deserves high level experience when I would just do more to hurt the population by failing to breed, or even worse, failing period? I KNOW that others are perfectly capable, and yet they have no opportunity to contribute any success due to the cost of these frogs. That is simply how I feel.
> 
> JBear


Keep in mind some of these expensive frogs are not advanced level frogs some are just rarer than others like the golden auratus and some galacts. I find it funny how people look at a frog as being to difficult to take on by looking at its price alone. And Im not joking when I say this most of this subject involves frogger that cant afford or get ahold of the frogs they want so this subject pops up again on the boards.
Dont put rare or expensive frogs in the same catigory as fad frogs. Most everyone that brings this up is after the latest fad.


camlov2 said:


> So many people say they are not in it for the money, they only breed to....
> grow the hobby, reduce wild caught frogs, or some other important reason.
> 
> Here is an idea-
> ...


I don't think anyone has made an excuse for making a profit as many of us have our own business within this hobby but that doesn't mean the hobby doesn't come first. In order to keep the hobby stable flooding the market with expensive frogs for sale for $25 will only throw another species into that category of cheap or unworthy frogs so many talk about. Ive been in the hobby long enough to see this. When I entered this hobby buying up pairs of thumbs or proven pairs of tincs and pumilio was a dream. I think we have gone far beyond that now as the average frog beginners now seek is a sexed or proven pair of something mainly ranitomeya species now a days. Why is that? Its because almost every hobbyists comes in with plans to make their money back and then some otherwise we wouldn't be a hobby of small businesses. Underpricing frogs in order to make them cheaper doesn't fix anything. We need to better manage lines, locales and unrelated groups of frogs in this hobby and work on not breeding a frog just because its worth a few bucks. We need to work on keeping track of whats in the hobby and whats in danger of becoming over populated and whats in danger of disappearing. Then we can worry about what they are worth.
I for one have sold and even given away many pricey frogs to ensure that lines or the species alone gets a better foothold in this hobby.



Chris Miller said:


> There are a lot of people who do, they just don't advertise it. It can be dangerous to the longterm wellbeing of frogs in the hobby if done willy nilly especially without changing the culture of herp keeping first.


Exactly

Michael


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

ghutch0203 said:


> Why is it people always B**** about frog prices but no one complains about paying 400 for a tremper leopard gecko or 1000 for a certain colored ball python!


I for one, would definitely complain. Call me a complainer if you must


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

What drives up the price tag on a frog or better yet, what enhances their value....really good pictures of that frog. I am not talking about rare frogs, just what would make a frog more expensive or give it more value. I would say really good pictures of the exact frog for sale, people I think would pay more to see exactly what they are getting.
I know this was probably not the spirit of the thread's original question but it is something I have thought for quite a while. Beginning with SNDF's original adds of 50 Pumilio (many hobbyisits have long done this as well) all WYSIWYG which has long gone on in the coral trade, it certainly expedited the sale of said frogs at premium prices.
Other than what drives up price....like it has always been people pay a lot for what they can't have, or most think they can't have because where there is high priced demand there will likely always be a supply.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

markpulawski said:


> What drives up the price tag on a frog or better yet, what enhances their value....really good pictures of that frog. I am not talking about rare frogs, just what would make a frog more expensive or give it more value. I would say really good pictures of the exact frog for sale, people I think would pay more to see exactly what they are getting.
> I know this was probably not the spirit of the thread's original question but it is something I have thought for quite a while. Beginning with SNDF's original adds of 50 Pumilio (many hobbyisits have long done this as well) all WYSIWYG which has long gone on in the coral trade, it certainly expedited the sale of said frogs at premium prices.
> Other than what drives up price....like it has always been people pay a lot for what they can't have, or most think they can't have because where there is high priced demand there will likely always be a supply.


Thats a good point. I've seen many times over the years where good pics of less popular frogs have stirred interests, or renewed interests in frogs that fell out of favor for awhile.


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## InnoEcto (Jun 28, 2009)

Chris Miller said:


> There are a lot of people who do, they just don't advertise it. It can be dangerous to the longterm wellbeing of frogs in the hobby if done willy nilly especially without changing the culture of herp keeping first.


Exactly!
These types of transactions do happen. The main point is the lack of advertisement. The breeder selects a responsible keeper. 
Just breeding the frogs only to rapidly drop the price, in an effort to make them more available to a larger group of capable keepers, is a recipe for disaster. For every capable keeper, how many irresponsible ones can now afford these $25 frogs?
Baby green iguanas sell for $25. Do most of them end up in responsible hands? It is a sad fact that a lot of people view such cheap animals as disposable.
I used to work at a reptile shop, and we used to sell true Costa Rican blue jeans pumilio for $30. Mantella cowani for $60. Do you know how hard it was trying to sell $100 worth of caging & supplies for a $30 frog? The average patron would try to just put them in a tiny plastic cage, and call it good.
Then the imports stopped coming in. When the dust settled, how many responsible keepers were working with cowani? There were more working with blue jeans, but they had suddenly become a rare frog, with a big price tag.
To some degree, a higher, steady price is better for the long term.
Wild peaks and valleys, in both popularity and price, are extremely bad for long term species management.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Why has everyone adopted the idea anyone suggested every frog should go for $25??? It seems there has either been a missunderstanding, or people are just throwing out crap to attempt to validate their points. Come on people, let's actually read what is said, and not let this topic deteriorate into the mess that always seems to happen when people dissagree. 

Thanks to all for making this a very entertaining thread!

Poison Beauties- Please stop insinuating I am just a bitter person who wants something I can't have. If you actually took the time to read what I write, you may find you are simply wrong.

JBear


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Something else to consider is that the high prices on some species can also lead to smuggling from the wild as well as outright fraud when it comes to people claiming lineage on the animals. The only way that can be prevented is through a common stud book as you see in many endangered species programs as well as AKC dog breeds.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

The way I see it what is usually best is to just let the market dictate the price, but at the same time encourage people to keep what they like, while not letting what is fashionable or rare play a part in that determination. I think the more that occurred the less issues we'd have in general. As far as frog price goes, selling to cheaply may devalue a frog in some people minds but really that is their failing, and I'm not sure its the sellers responsibility to worry about that unless they can tell the person is thinking like that. 

Keeping the price high may keep rarer or harder to breed frogs out of the hands of many good keepers for a long time as much as it may help keep those frogs in the hands of good keepers while becoming established in the hobby. I think there are a lot of catch 22's surrounding these issues. So maybe the best thing is to just lighten up and not condemn people for one practice vs another either way and just go with what I said in the beginning? Might cut alot of the drama out of the hobby that so far seems to have had little in the way of practical benefit


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Very well spoken, and I agree largely with you. Thanks for encouraging civility, I certainly did not intend to anger anyone...

JBear


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> As far as frog price goes, selling to cheaply may devalue a frog in some people minds but really that is their failing, and I'm not sure its the sellers responsibility to worry about that unless they can tell the person is thinking like that.


I think that it is the sellers responsibility to think of the long term effects when selling their frogs. Lots of us move around frogs that have special value in the hobby for no money although that draws the ire of people not in the know. 

I'm interested in what frogs people consider rare.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Chris Miller said:


> I think that it is the sellers responsibility to think of the long term effects when selling their frogs. Lots of us move around frogs that have special value in the hobby for no money although that draws the ire of people not in the know.
> 
> I'm interested in what frogs people consider rare.


I tend to agree. I think I'd like to see people ease up on breeding and then selling a lot of the most common species. Everyone seems all excited to get and breed their first frogs which I understand, I was one of them but I'm just not sure that releasing tons of those cheaply is a good idea. Sure if you wanna breed each species/morph once or twice to get some practice, have a few extra frogs on hand and even make a little money back to support your hobby ok. But is it good to keep them pumping out babies for months or years at a time? 

I can tell you that once I got my first froglets given the market here in OK being pretty small, mostly only leaving shipping as an option or attempting to wholesale them to pet stores I was kinda like " Crap...wtf am I gonna do with these?" So basically I had a few extra on hand and stopped bothering to make any real effort to breed most of what I had. Of course the Ice storm came along later and wiped out nearly my entire collection so it all became a rather mute point


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Chris Miller said:


> I think that it is the sellers responsibility to think of the long term effects when selling their frogs. Lots of us move around frogs that have special value in the hobby for no money although that draws the ire of people not in the know.
> 
> I'm interested in what frogs people consider rare.


I do not think it is a bad thing to have a core network of very good keepers to trade with behind the curtains( I have owned a few very rare species of newt/salamander with the help of friends). In fact that IS the way to make rare animals not so rare and have a decent supply come into the hobby. It is better to get multiple skilled keepers working colaboratively. This is the best way to make a frog MORE available, and help lower the cost of ownership. What would be so wrong with say Ameerega ssp. being as common as Tincs? Maybe the reproductive habits are slower/fewer offspring, but with more owners, it kind of balances. 

I also want to say, I don't think any ethical breeder would knowingly sell a frog to someone with no experience. That is like saying your hard work was merely for the dollar, and little care is shown for where the frog ends up, and if it is dead or alive. Expos are an extreme downside to the entire herp hobby on many levels. On the best day, breeders will sell to locals they have worked with. Why not require someone to prove their ability with a breif quiz/questionare? If they are obvious impulse buyers with little to no chance of real success, would you still make the sale? I think a sort of test would help to put frogs in worthy hands. 

JBear


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> Why not require someone to prove their ability with a breif quiz/questionare? If they are obvious impulse buyers with little to no chance of real success, would you still make the sale? I think a sort of test would help to put frogs in worthy hands.


If this is the only way frogs are sold, how would anyone new get their first frogs?

I have no problem selling to people with little experience. With that said, they'll have my email, phone, and address, so they can get in touch with me should they need to know whether toe tapping is the sign of a seizure, or those white worms on the front of their glass mean death to frogs. 

You're right about the "labor of love" for our frogs; I think the camaraderie in this hobby deserves (and usually gets) the same.

After that--working with a friend makes pricing more flexible.

Sorry if this was too far off topic. =)


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

michaelslenahan said:


> If this is the only way frogs are sold, how would anyone new get their first frogs?
> 
> I have no problem selling to people with little experience. With that said, they'll have my email, phone, and address, so they can get in touch with me should they need to know whether toe tapping is the sign of a seizure, or those white worms on the front of their glass mean death to frogs.
> 
> ...


I don't think you're off topic, Michael. I don't think anyone is expecting someone to be an expert before getting their first frog, but if they don't know about humidity requirements or how to culture fruit flies, the frogs could be dead in days.
In my short time on Dendroboard, I have seen several posts about people buying frogs that think they can feed them fairly size-able crickets. I've also seen posts about people keeping them under heat lamps, and in vivs that are obviously way too dry. These are people that should have waited and researched a bit before purchasing.
I think a simple questionnaire is an excellent idea for first froggers. If anyone has a good idea about puting that together, I think it should be posted. We can all look over it, do a bit of collaborative editing, and it should be available to breeders to be used freely.
Doug


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Another option--at least for species with a high level of fecundity--is to sell excess animals to local pet stores, etc. This also helps provide the shop with a local CB source of animals.

Although I have my personal reservations about the rate of growth the hobby is experiencing (from a captive tracking/management point of view), there is no doubt that folks coming into it through the pet shop door have a greater chance at success with the plug-and-play items available to them (ExoTerra tanks and misters, FF cultures, etc.). The willingness to offer surplus animals to some of these shops can help curb the drastic boom/bust cycles that are so detrimental to the longterm survivability of captive Dendrobatid populations.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Chris Miller said:


> I think that it is the sellers responsibility to think of the long term effects when selling their frogs. Lots of us move around frogs that have special value in the hobby for no money although that draws the ire of people not in the know.
> 
> I'm interested in what frogs people consider rare.


Well said, Chris.

Rare in the wild is entirely different but in the hobby... just to name a few based on frequency of breeding and captive availability (not price), P. lugubris, P. aurotaenia, A. femoralis, A. zaparo, A. hahneli, A. altamazonica, E. tricolor, A. bassleri. And yet, probably couldn't sell one of these for $100. Much better to trade to responsible folks and get them out there, their monetary value may never change but a greater appreciation may result among the more dedicated hobbiests that can see beneath the "veil of the fad". And those that love great calls!


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

I completely agree. I think there is a skewed view of rare in the hobby that equates expensive with uncommon. While there are some rare frogs that are also expensive or have a high trade value, like Itaya or some oophaga, most seem to be little brown frogs. With how well they breed and how easy some are to keep it's almost inexcusable that they are so rare.

Also, getting people to sell their surplus offspring out of the hobby would be about the best thing that could happen to aid the longevity of the hobby.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Chris Miller said:


> ...most seem to be little brown frogs. With how well they breed and how easy some are to keep it's almost inexcusable that they are so rare.


I actually think their high fecundity is their downfall: people view them as "easy" with little skill required...so after the initial excitement of new introduction, they get ignored. People assume "They breed like rabbits...they'll always be around." 

But, as has been said before, this is why it's so important to keep what you like. The anthonyi and tricolors have been the frogs that got me into the hobby, and will most likely be the ones that I'll always keep, regardless. There are other, more "prestigious" frogs that I have had in my collection...and they have phased out of my collection as well. But the lowly little brown frogs have remained.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> ...I don't think anyone is expecting someone to be an expert before getting their first frog, but if they don't know about humidity requirements or how to culture fruit flies, the frogs could be dead in days.
> In my short time on Dendroboard, I have seen several posts about people buying frogs that think they can feed them fairly size-able crickets. I've also seen posts about people keeping them under heat lamps, and in vivs that are obviously way too dry. These are people that should have waited and researched a bit before purchasing.
> I think a simple questionnaire is an excellent idea for first froggers. If anyone has a good idea about puting that together, I think it should be posted. We can all look over it, do a bit of collaborative editing, and it should be available to breeders to be used freely.
> Doug


I would love to help produce a questionare to determine suitability for ownership. 

Draft: (use it as a wiki and change/add what you feel is in need!)

1. What size enclosure are you intending to keep your frog(s) in?

2. What food prey will you feed your frog(s)?

3. What temps do you intend to provide?


...Just a start...

JBear


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Those are all easily adjustable and quick for people to learn. If we're talking about species or populations being lost from the hobby, and preventing animals from being lost through boom/bust cycles, my questions would be more along the lines of:

1. How long have you been keeping Dendrobatids?

2. How large is your collection?

2a. Since you first started in the hobby up until now, how has your collection grown (number of tanks, number of frogs, etc.)?

3. If you, for whatever reason, were unable to any longer care for your frogs/collection, what is your current plan for their distribution? Would you plan on selling them, or spreading them to various hobbyists? If the latter, have you already discussed with those specific hobbyists your plans?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I'd add, have you bred your existing frogs...


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

skylsdale said:


> Those are all easily adjustable and quick for people to learn. If we're talking about species or populations being lost from the hobby, and preventing animals from being lost through boom/bust cycles, my questions would be more along the lines of:
> 
> 1. How long have you been keeping Dendrobatids?
> 
> ...


What information does 2a provide that 2 doesn't? Are people who build their collection fast/slow looked down upon as being unable to adequately care for certain species?

I also second what stemcellular put. I think that would also be important to know.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I would love to help produce a questionare to determine suitability for ownership.
> 
> Draft: (use it as a wiki and change/add what you feel is in need!)
> 
> ...


OK JBear, I've taken those and built upon them some. I'm trying to hit the important basics while still keeping it fairly short and simple.

*HOUSING*

1. What size enclosure are you intending to keep your frog(s) in?

2. What is a suitable humidity level for dart frogs?

3. What temperatures do you intend to provide?

*FEEDING*

4. What food/prey will you feed your frog(s)?

5. Do you know how to culture said item?

6. If not, are you prepared to spend $6 to $10 dollars, or more, every
week to purchase said food item?

7. Is any type of supplementation necessary in their diet? 

8. How will you supply drinking water or moisture to your frogs?

*LIFESPAN*

9. Are you aware that a dart frogs life span can be 15 years and longer, and
and are you prepared for a long term commitment.

Doug


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> Those are all easily adjustable and quick for people to learn. If we're talking about species or populations being lost from the hobby, and preventing animals from being lost through boom/bust cycles, my questions would be more along the lines of:
> 
> 1. How long have you been keeping Dendrobatids?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the help! I like your perspective... I do think people should be required to answer "the basics" as well though.

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I think we've got what should perhaps be two questionnaires. The first was brought up as suitability for someones very first group of frogs. The second for suitability for rare or harder to keep species.
Doug


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> OK JBear, I've taken those and built upon them some. I'm trying to hit the important basics while still keeping it fairly short and simple.
> 
> *HOUSING*
> 
> ...


I think this is the best draft yet!!! 

JBear


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm not sure this is the direction I pictured this going. I thought the concept was to ask if they'd done their research; not to only sell frogs to people who already keep frogs... In my opinion, they should be more focused on knowledge of husbandry. Bare minimum they should key in to make sure that they've at least read some care sheets, have a proper viv set up, and have primary and backup food sources. 

-Brett



skylsdale said:


> Those are all easily adjustable and quick for people to learn. If we're talking about species or populations being lost from the hobby, and preventing animals from being lost through boom/bust cycles, my questions would be more along the lines of:
> 
> 1. How long have you been keeping Dendrobatids?
> 
> ...


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

Now I see the difference for 2 types of questionnaires. Good stuff. I was more thinking of first frogs where you were talking about species that could potentially be lost from the hobby. 

-brett


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> I think we've got what should perhaps be two questionnaires. The first was brought up as suitability for someones very first group of frogs. The second for suitability for rare or harder to keep species.
> Doug


I think you are right. Thanks again!

JBear


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

while i think that this may be extreme (the questionnaire) and very unlikely to be put into place, i would add;

LIFESPAN:
what is the oldest CB dendrobatid in your collection?

this would IMO provide a more accurate view of the person's ability to maintain the frogs. 

but onto the realistic side of this, i dont think that breeders selling frogs like auratus, tincs, leucs, azureus, etc. to those who are unable to care for them is such a big deal. (i know that sounds crazy) but...... big breeders sell LOTS of frogs and while some end up in the hands of responsible hobbyists, we all know that whether it be a kid at a reptile show, or the brief stay hobbyist most will either see the frog die in their care or will sell long before the frogs have put on any considerable age. in order for these big breeders (which are a VERY valuable resource for our hobby and aid in its longevity) to make a living (which some do) they have to sell volume, and IMO the "responsible" hobby doesnt have the ability to take all of these frogs. and while you can all say " well then they should just sell less" its not taking food off of your table or creating a situation where you cant pay rent/mortgage, so i dont think you have the room to speak against it. 

i understand that its a "life" and that its sad to see so many animals perish, but IMO if it takes 100 frogs sold (to make a profit) and 30 of those survive long term, then whats the issue? perhaps those that were making impulse purchases will either get the picture and learn from their mistakes, or move on and leave the hobby to those who really appreciate the ins and outs.

i know this will be taken as a "bad" viewpoint, but i like to take a realistic look at the hobby and what makes it tick, and insisting that breeders make people fill out questionnaires (for commonly CB animals) seems a little too much for me.

sorry for the rant,
james


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

james67 said:


> while i think that this may be extreme (the questionnaire) and very unlikely to be put into place, i would add;
> 
> LIFESPAN:
> what is the oldest CB dendrobatid in your collection?
> ...


I agree that some people may not like that thinking, but I think its accurate and pragmatic. I'd love it if everyone did their research, were very prepared for their frogs and dealers to be more picky about who they sell to but it is a volume business and I'm not sure people wishing to make a living at it can afford to turn down everyone who isn't ideal. Perhaps they can pick their battles though and win a few. I'm much less concerned with wishful thinking and perfect world scenarios and much more concerned about dealing with the realities as effectively as possible. Of course that doesn't mean we can't try to nudge people a little closer towards that perfect world while doing that


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Nobody is insisting anything James. People just kicking around ideas. If anything comes of it, it would be totally volunteer. Nobody is talking about this being forced on anyone.
I really don't get this statement. "LIFESPAN:
what is the oldest CB dendrobatid in your collection?"
If this would be for a first time frog buyer, how could they possibly have a dendrobatid in their collection??
Doug


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

im not trying to imply that anyone intended to institute such a thing across the board, just saying that it may not be as simple as "well this is a good idea", since anyone not willing to participate would seem to be less reputable than someone who was (who in most cases, at least as far as i can imagine, would be those who make occasional sales)


most of the Q's posed are directed at those who have at least previous knowledge of the animals if not a "collection" (as stated in a previous post)

if something like this were feasible (possibly for more "rare" animals) i think such a Q would elicit a response which could more accurately gauge the person's longevity in the hobby as well as their ability to maintain an animal long term.

for instance someone could have an impressive collection from day one, but the animals would either be LTC (from someone else) WC, or fresh CB. 
someone who could say i have CB animals that have been in my possession (age) for 5 years (or something along those lines) could give more perspective about that person's care than "what/ how many animals do you have?"

james


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

james67 said:


> im not trying to imply that anyone intended to institute such a thing across the board, just saying that it may not be as simple as "well this is a good idea", since anyone not willing to participate would seem to be less reputable than someone who was (who in most cases, at least as far as i can imagine, would be those who make occasional sales)
> 
> 
> most of the Q's posed are directed at those who have at least previous knowledge of the animals if not a "collection" (as stated in a previous post)
> ...


There could simply be a section titled "Experience?" Where a potential buyer can list the specifics of his/her collection/research/etc.

JBear


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

btcope said:


> I'm not sure this is the direction I pictured this going. I thought the concept was to ask if they'd done their research; not to only sell frogs to people who already keep frogs...





james67 said:


> i like to take a realistic look at the hobby and what makes it tick, and insisting that breeders make people fill out questionnaires (for commonly CB animals) seems a little too much for me.


Agreed. I was trying to point this out earlier: being there as a resource to answer questions is paramount, I think. As opposed to interrogating someone who is interested in dart frogs. 

If I responded to a classified ad and someone sent me that questionnaire, I'm pretty sure I'd be moving along to another seller instead of playing 20 questions--especially when there isn't only one right answer to every question! 

I mean, what's next? Will we have to list every frog we've ever kept in our signatures and only be allowed to purchase "next level" frogs when we've gained the right "experience?"


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> There could simply be a section titled "Experience?" Where a potential buyer can list the specifics of his/her collection/research/etc.


I spoke too soon...


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> ...People just kicking around ideas. If anything comes of it, it would be totally volunteer. Nobody is talking about this being forced on anyone.
> Doug


Well put. 

It takes debate to find a middle and a balance. I thank everyone for their input! 

JBear


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> Those are all easily adjustable and quick for people to learn. If we're talking about species or populations being lost from the hobby, and preventing animals from being lost through boom/bust cycles, my questions would be more along the lines of:
> 
> 1. How long have you been keeping Dendrobatids?
> 
> ...


Gee, that looks familiar. It's pretty easy to see if a potential buyer has the necessary experience and background knowledge by having a casual conversation with them - listen to the questions they ask. The questions above are a bit more targeted and give a better picture of the mindset of the frogger.



PeanutbuttER said:


> What information does 2a provide that 2 doesn't? Are people who build their collection fast/slow looked down upon as being unable to adequately care for certain species?


#2a is kinda like #2 divided by #1. People who build collections really quickly are far more likely to burn out that those who do it slowly. When someone has acquired/raised up important genetic stock and they bail from the hobby without a good plan on turning those frogs over, it can be like chopping some limbs out of that species genetic tree.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Chris Miller said:


> ...People who build collections really quickly are far more likely to burn out that those who do it slowly. When someone has acquired/raised up important genetic stock and they bail from the hobby without a good plan on turning those frogs over, it can be like chopping some limbs out of that species genetic tree.


I think you are probably right. I can imagine getting a lot of frogs, and then feeling overwhelmed when say cultures crash unexpectedly. That would be stressful considering the amount you would have to purchase and have shipped, and then the wait for a "boom" before you can feed them appropriate amounts, etc. Good point Chris.

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the short run, the most basic thing that drives up the price of a frog is availability versus demand... Once demand drops price decreases... the only way to combat this is to stabilize availability with the community (most people on this forum purchase from each other once they break into the hobby).. the only way this can really occur would be if those with surpluses sold these surpluses to wholesalers or pet stores. This will cause two things to happen... one is that the supply into the local hobby does not overwhelm the demand (which also results in boom and busts which are a long-term threat to the populations in the hobby) and it gives beginners who purchase thier first frogs elsewhere a better chance of getting a healthy frog. 

There is a lot if animosity to resellers aka "flippers" but reality is that we either continue on the path we are trending and continue to have boom and bust cycles and risk loss of established populations or we have to look outside the box. A lot of the thread above with the questionairs and restricting who can and cannot purchase a frog is just going to push people into purchasing wild caught frogs or from resellers...... 
This will also to some extent displace some of the purchase and sale of wild caught frogs as the resellers will be carrying captive bred versus wild caught... 

Some comments... 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I think the hobby itself is far too small for everyone who breeds darts as a hobby to pay the bills with. That is one of the probs. People think they are gonna live off of frogs and when no one is paying,they are left working a full time job and pissed about people undercutting them. In truth the frogs purchased at the "undercut" cost are just as healthy... Truth be told, if you were not breeding and establishing yourself years ago, you will never compete with the sponsors and make a living for any long duration. 

When and if my Tincs start breeding, it will be for trade, or $20 for 2 tads, or $20 for 1 froglet. That is reasonable, and I think good. However I won't pedal them to unknowns at expos for the sake of a dollar. I would only sell to people who at least have read and researched and preferably has experience with amphibs. 

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> There is a lot if animosity to resellers aka "flippers" but reality is that we either continue on the path we are trending and continue to have boom and bust cycles and risk loss of established populations or we have to look outside the box. A lot of the thread above with the questionairs and restricting who can and cannot purchase a frog is just going to push people into purchasing wild caught frogs or from resellers......
> This will also to some extent displace some of the purchase and sale of wild caught frogs as the resellers will be carrying captive bred versus wild caught...
> 
> Some comments...
> ...


Very good insight! Thank you for the comments!

JBear


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> In the short run, the most basic thing that drives up the price of a frog is availability versus demand... Once demand drops price decreases... the only way to combat this is to stabilize availability with the community (most people on this forum purchase from each other once they break into the hobby).. the only way this can really occur would be if those with surpluses sold these surpluses to wholesalers or pet stores. This will cause two things to happen... one is that the supply into the local hobby does not overwhelm the demand (which also results in boom and busts which are a long-term threat to the populations in the hobby) and it gives beginners who purchase thier first frogs elsewhere a better chance of getting a healthy frog.
> 
> There is a lot if animosity to resellers aka "flippers" but reality is that we either continue on the path we are trending and continue to have boom and bust cycles and risk loss of established populations or we have to look outside the box. A lot of the thread above with the questionairs and restricting who can and cannot purchase a frog is just going to push people into purchasing wild caught frogs or from resellers......
> This will also to some extent displace some of the purchase and sale of wild caught frogs as the resellers will be carrying captive bred versus wild caught...
> ...


Ya I don't really get animosity towards flippers assuming they are treating the animals humanely and not being so distasteful as to walk over to one table, buy frogs for 20ea then walk back to their table and sell them for 30ea. Thats kinda crappy but otherwise I think its smart and valid business practice. A lot of people don't wanna deal with the hassle of shipping and sometimes have trouble selling/trading locally. If they don't mind accepting less for the frog I don't see why we should fault people for selling it for more later if they can, thats basically what sales is about. Also flippers don't make much money unless they raise the price so don't they combat devaluation of frogs at least in part? 

Now whether the flipper is being humane or not is another issue. Lots of people that don't flip probably drag animals from show to show stressing the crap out of them...but we mostly seem to just accept that as part of the business. Seems like if we should be jumping on anyone it isn't the flipper as long as they are humane, but all the people who are stressing animals to death.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Ya I don't really get animosity towards flippers assuming they are treating the animals humanely and not being so distasteful as to walk over to one table, buy frogs for 20ea then walk back to their table and sell them for 30ea. Thats kinda crappy but otherwise I think its smart and valid business practice. A lot of people don't wanna deal with the hassle of shipping and sometimes have trouble selling/trading locally. If they don't mind accepting less for the frog I don't see why we should fault people for selling it for more later if they can, thats basically what sales is about. Also flippers don't make much money unless they raise the price so don't they combat devaluation of frogs at least in part?
> 
> Now whether the flipper is being humane or not is another issue. Lots of people that don't flip probably drag animals from show to show stressing the crap out of them...but we mostly seem to just accept that as part of the business. Seems like if we should be jumping on anyone it isn't the flipper as long as they are humane, but all the people who are stressing animals to death.


Anyone who treats animals as a business first and puts money ahead of providing proper care to the animls, and information to the people they sell to is a target in my eyes. Bottom line here is simple supply and demand, if people want to pile unto the newest fad frog in the hopes of making a ton of money the they should expect to see the value of the frog plummet as more and more people aquire and breed them. Very few darts are particularly hard to breed compared to some other types of terrarium animals and many can be surprisingly prolific if kept and fed properly. It almost becomes a pyramid scheme with the early aquirers of a species or a morph commanding a nice chunk of change with the people aquiring animals after them commanding an ever smaller price tag.

Don't buy animals in the hopes of making a profit and if you can't afford a particular morph today wait a couple of years odds are good that the price will come down to a more managable number.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Anyone who treats animals as a business first and puts money ahead of providing proper care to the animls, and information to the people they sell to is a target in my eyes. Bottom line here is simple supply and demand, if people want to pile unto the newest fad frog in the hopes of making a ton of money the they should expect to see the value of the frog plummet as more and more people aquire and breed them. Very few darts are particularly hard to breed compared to some other types of terrarium animals and many can be surprisingly prolific if kept and fed properly. It almost becomes a pyramid scheme with the early aquirers of a species or a morph commanding a nice chunk of change with the people aquiring animals after them commanding an ever smaller price tag.
> 
> Don't buy animals in the hopes of making a profit and if you can't afford a particular morph today wait a couple of years odds are good that the price will come down to a more managable number.


Agreed, unfortunately it seems to have become a rather accepted part of the hobby as far as shows go. Or am I way off base? Don't a lot of people haul animals to show after show never really giving them a break in a stable environment for awhile till they go back on the road? I don't have a lot of show experience so It may not be as common as I perceive. I would much prefer vendors that pack the animals up take em to the show, then take em right back home and give them a rest for awhile (and good care everywhere of course).


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Agreed, unfortunately it seems to have become a rather accepted part of the hobby as far as shows go. Or am I way off base? Don't a lot of people haul animals to show after show never really giving them a break in a stable environment for awhile till they go back on the road? I don't have a lot of show experience so It may not be as common as I perceive. I would much prefer vendors that pack the animals up take em to the show, then take em right back home and give them a rest for awhile (and good care everywhere of course).


Unfortunately you are correct. The more time an animal spends in a "stable environment" the less time spent in front of prospective clients something against the interests of the seller. Not sure if there is a solution to that.


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## bmore (May 11, 2010)

Chris Miller said:


> I completely agree. I think there is a skewed view of rare in the hobby that equates expensive with uncommon. While there are some rare frogs that are also expensive or have a high trade value, like Itaya or some oophaga, most seem to be little brown frogs. With how well they breed and how easy some are to keep it's almost inexcusable that they are so rare.
> 
> Also, getting people to sell their surplus offspring out of the hobby would be about the best thing that could happen to aid the longevity of the hobby.


What is Itaya? I haven't heard of it before.


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## bmore (May 11, 2010)

never mind. The search function is a valuable tool.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Its another locale a few darts come from in Peru. Iquitos being the more commonly known locale.

Michael


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