# Newbie getting a biopod



## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Just wanted to introduce myself real quick. I'm going to be officially a dart owner probably in 3-5 months. The reason is I'm one of the early backers on the Biopod Aqua (there's a thread in the parts subforum about it). I'll be getting this and letting it grow out a bit before I get some frogs.

I've always thought about possibly getting into darts (I currently keep 3 garter snakes and want to expand my herpmania lol), but this kinda pushed me over the edge, especially since I got in on the early bird discount. I honestly couldn't build something with half the features of this things for the same money. And tbh the automation makes me feel a little better about getting husbandry right. I'll definitely start culturing bugs early too. I'll have springs and isos soon anywho as I'm doing a bioactive viv for my garters and so the frogs will also be bioactive. I'll have to farm some fruit flies up to add though I know. Also know I need to supplement since we can't get those super bugs they are used to.










So far I'm thinking about doing a pair or trio of tincs. I would love to get some yellowbacks but understand they can only do pairs, would definitely love to get a breeding pair though as I think this system would be perfect for breeding and rearing tads. At the same time I see alot of sources saying start with froglets.. Also looked at patricias too (some sources say they do good in trios?) but really would love to do yellowback since they don't seem to be bred much and I love their skeleton feet  What do you guys think?


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Wow that looks amazing. Excuse my ignorance, but what is a Biopod and how is it automated?


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## Calivet (Aug 12, 2013)

Check out this thread

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/254826-bio-pod-new-vivarium.html

And this Kickstarter 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2099003506/worlds-first-smart-microhabitat/description


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## Meefloaf (Apr 22, 2013)

it's a disgustingly small vivarium, just over 30cm deep ? WTF is that about. also there are alot of issues being raised about it over here in the uk


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## C los7 (Sep 24, 2015)

What issues is like to know? But I'm pretty sure they are not on the market yet. Small maybe for now, they are just starting out. Perhaps in the future they will be making bigger ones.


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## Meefloaf (Apr 22, 2013)

the first being the quality of the leds being used, airflow and the fact that if the system breaks, the whole viv shuts down. but mainly size tbh, understand it being their first run out, so they dont want to go too large, but i agree with a sentiment i've seen somewhere else _*"it's a shame the development did not go into a decent sized enclosure rather than promoting the standard inadequate glass coffins for our darts, gecko's and such."*_

i get myself in a not with people sacrificing adequate space for their Dart Frogs over the need to fill a space with as many as possible

mainly for the fact, im sure most people on here have seen people come and go from this hobby who will buy things like this because they have the cash, and cant be bothered to research what their desired pet needs, for them this is an easy cop out and i feel in the long run the animals will suffer due to this. its a plug and play system in theory, so folk can pick one off the shelf and bang a frog or ten in it from their local pets at home (petsmart for you guys ?)


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

I think 31 gallons is a pretty decent size viv for most darts. 15.5 inches deep is a little less than the normal 18 inch deep Vivs that most people use ( exo's, zoomed) but with proper planting this tank should turn out awesome. That's considering the fact that many people keep a lot of thumbs in 10 gallon verts, I'm excited to see how well these things run!


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I can understand your doubts and your criticism about products like this, but to say that it is "disgustingly small vivarium" it seems to me unjustified. You give a very brutal and uneducated judgment on a product that is not yet on the market. In my opinion it is better to wait before criticizing.
Your doubts and your criticism should be extended to all producers of standard vivs, already on the market: I refer to known brands, whose terrariums are a little bigger than these Bio pod vivariums, but their quality is undoubtedly poor - despite their excellent reputation. At least in my experience.


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## C los7 (Sep 24, 2015)

The only really way to get a "big" enclosure is to either build one or get a "fish tank" and modify it. So how about we let this product actually make it to production before you criticize something that you haven't actually seen yet. These setups have pretty much everything you need in them and I can argue that they are probably better setup than what most people have when it comes to Eco Terra's or zoo meds. That's just my 2 cents
And I have yet to find any dart frogs at any regular big chain pet store.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

C los7 said:


> The only really way to get a "big" enclosure is to either build one or get a "fish tank" and modify it. So how about we let this product actually make it to production before you criticize something that you haven't actually seen yet. These setups have pretty much everything you need in them and I can argue that they are probably better setup than what most people have when it comes to Eco Terra's or zoo meds.
> That's just my 2 cents.


 I'm not all that excited about this thing either, based on what I've seen about it so far. I'm certainly not considering replacing my Exo Terra or tank set ups just yet. But I'll wait and see how it develops...




C los7 said:


> And I have yet to find any dart frogs at any regular big chain pet store.


My local Petco has been carrying darts for months now, nearly a year.


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## Meefloaf (Apr 22, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> I can understand your doubts and your criticism about products like this, but to say that it is "disgustingly small vivarium" it seems to me unjustified. You give a very brutal and uneducated judgment on a product that is not yet on the market. In my opinion it is better to wait before criticizing.
> Your doubts and your criticism should be extended to all producers of standard vivs, already on the market: I refer to known brands, whose terrariums are a little bigger than these Bio pod vivariums, but their quality is undoubtedly poor - despite their excellent reputation. At least in my experience.


*sigh* *"promoting the standard inadequate glass coffins"*, does that not suggest a conversation about the already available products ? oh yeah, i think it does. also, even in their largest it gets to what 15" ? thats still under 40cm.

14"'s to me is far too small, and yes, i find it disgusting that anyone would want to keep a group of dart frogs in 30cube exo's. the smallest i have is a 45 cube for my younger frogs until i move them into their bigger homes (once planting etc has been completed). i understand space can be an issue, but that should come second to providing these animals with an adequate sized home rather than "how many pretty things i can have". 

as for having a go before its hit the market, well it's hitting the market is it not ? arn't they taking pre-orders etc ?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Meefloaf said:


> the first being the quality of the leds being used, airflow and the fact that if the system breaks, the whole viv shuts down. but mainly size tbh, understand it being their first run out, so they dont want to go too large, but i agree with a sentiment i've seen somewhere else _*"it's a shame the development did not go into a decent sized enclosure rather than promoting the standard inadequate glass coffins for our darts, gecko's and such."*_
> 
> i get myself in a not with people sacrificing adequate space for their Dart Frogs over the need to fill a space with as many as possible
> 
> mainly for the fact, im sure most people on here have seen people come and go from this hobby who will buy things like this because they have the cash, and cant be bothered to research what their desired pet needs, for them this is an easy cop out and i feel in the long run the animals will suffer due to this. its a plug and play system in theory, so folk can pick one off the shelf and bang a frog or ten in it from their local pets at home (petsmart for you guys ?)


Well I've got 10 years in the hobby, and most seem to feel I know what I'm doing and build pretty dang good vivs from the reactions I've gotten here and in real life... and I ordered one.

I can't speak to the quality of the LEDs but as long as they don't crap out the first year or 2 and are of adequate intensity they'll be on par with most affordable led solutions in the USA hobby. And if they do the dawn/dusk like the creators say then even at full price this is reasonable cost considering all the other bells and whistles. At 30-50% off it is a steal.

What is considered adequate size for 2 larger common species of darts (like Azureus) across the pond?

The smallest biopod is 14 gallons; that is 7gal per frog and plenty of space for a pair of most species, especially if the viv is well done to maximise usable surface area. For years large dart species were kept and bred 2 to a 10 gal and 5 gal minimum perr frog was the general guideline. I'm all for the more recent move towards a 10gal per frog guideline but 7 isn't to far off, and for the record I like larger vivs and often under populate them, but this is a fine size for a pair of larger common darts, or a trio of thumbnail or pumilio IMHO, if the tank is reasonably well done.

There is passive and active ventilation, and if all the electronics fail except the light then you are basically still left with a perfectly functional vivarium with passive ventilation. If the misting system continues to function then that should be enough to keep the back wall moist and again you are left with a vivarium that is as functional as most. If the light fails just slide one of the multitude of sleak led strips under the old light.

The automation may give some an extra layer of protection or at least a sense of more security, but I don't really have to do more then mist and trim a completed vivarium and of course feed the frogs. But this has the components some might need if their average home temps are on the low side, and the passive and active ventilation probably means a healthier environment when a person might not have the best viv building skills. 

If the announced features work reliability ya it might make things easier for novices but that likely means less frustrated people and fewer dead animals since there may be a bit more margin for error, and people will have all they need at their finger tips so if the heat fails they don't have to learn all about heating elements and what size/type is best for their tank: they can just use the app and integrated heater, and that could save animals and ultimately keep people in the hobby. I assume use of the heater or other functions aren't mandatory.

I don't see this as a cop out at all but ya it may give people the confidence to try this hobby that might not otherwise. Frankly the hobby isn't that hard, but this thing won't create the hardscape/plantscape for them and it won't culture fruitflies for them, so they are still going to have a learning curve. Less intimidation may mean more people stick around longer to eventually become experts or at least advanced hobbyists.

Right now my biggest worry is will they actually deliver on all promised features, and how well will all the announced features work, and how long will they typically work for?... and of course I'm really hoping it is all for real and not a.vapor ware scam to take the money and run, but they seem legit. And unless I'm missing something basically every piece of automation technology could fail and this would still be a glass box with ventilation that you can put a light over and thus have a fully functioning viv, and not have to throw it in the trash, loose all value and start from scratch.


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## TJ_Burton (Jul 22, 2015)

Dendro Dave said:


> Right now my biggest worry is will they actually deliver on all promised features, and how well will all the announced features work, and how long will they typically work for?... and of course I'm really hoping it is all for real and not a vapor ware scam to take the money and run, but they seem legit. And unless I'm missing something basically every piece of automation technology could fail and this would still be a glass box with ventilation that you can put a light over and thus have a fully functioning viv, and not have to throw it in the trash, loose all value and start from scratch.


Definitely not a scam; founder is a great guy, and working prototypes have been around for a while. They have attended multiple reptile expos to my understanding as well.

Here is some video footage of one of the Biopods in action at an expo (also shows the misting system)

https://youtu.be/MwDwwX08rXM?t=528


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## biopod (Oct 1, 2015)

Hello everyone,

I thought it would be good for us to chime in on this thread. 

One of our goals in developing biopod is to really help unite hobbyists from around the world. The cloud based system is designed so that anyone can share all the settings of their custom habitats for different animals to help the community work together to optimize captive care. In addition, we are working with organizations in the field in order to better understand the natural habitat through directly placing weather stations to record actual weather data - from this we are able to incorporate this data to our presets to more perfectly simulate many different natural habitats. While this may not be of huge importance to some species as they readily adapt to terrarium conditions, we feel the best husbandry starts with the most accurate representation of the microclimate the animal enjoys in the wild. 

We have started with 3 sizes, from 14 to 31.5 gallons and we are presently developing more sizes. Obviously we don't want overcrowding of any sort in our viv's - and as such we are programming the app to make recommendations toward this end.

All parts carry a 1 year warranty, and we have selected only CE/UL approved parts to ensure quality.

Anyway, we really appreciate all of your support, and thank you so much for being part of the biopod story!

Jared


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

I have seen these and also have my doubts on how they are cramming all the "stuff" they say they are going to be able to do in that small of a footprint. for example

1. Integrated misting system, where is the pump and reservoir for this system going to be?

2. pump for active filtration

3. and I believe I read somewhere about an aeration feature which would mean another air pump, that’s a lot of pumps in such a small footprint. 

From what I have seen looks like the lines from the misting system are running through the housing that holds the lights. electricity and water in the same housing, not too sure about that. 

Am I skeptical about this system, yes I am. I have seen lots of great ideas on here that just never happen, this seems more close to actually being doable, but this is on Kickstarter and not everything on Kickstarter gets produced.


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## Marktman (Sep 27, 2009)

A link to your homepage would be great.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I really don't like the tone that this conversation took very early on. OP didn't deserve that at all. Seems like this is an unfair hijack of the OP's thread. How about if we keep the discussion of the hardware in the other thread where that is already occurring? This stuff needs to be discussed, but maybe not in the beginner discussion section?

Rushthezeppelin, I think this would look awesome if it comes together the way the marketing materials indicate it will. Is the one you linked the 31 gallon size? If you are looking at tincs, I would go with the big one. Tincs tend to like a bit more floor space. That's just my opinion, though.

I wish you success in your first dart frog tank! I hope you enjoy them as much as I have 

Mark


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## Meefloaf (Apr 22, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> What is considered adequate size for 2 larger common species of darts (like Azureus) across the pond?
> 
> The smallest biopod is 14 gallons; that is 7gal per frog and plenty of space for a pair of most species, especially if the viv is well done to maximise usable surface area. For years large dart species were kept and bred 2 to a 10 gal and 5 gal minimum perr frog was the general guideline. I'm all for the more recent move towards a 10gal per frog guideline but 7 isn't to far off, and for the record I like larger vivs and often under populate them, but this is a fine size for a pair of larger common darts, or a trio of thumbnail or pumilio IMHO, if the tank is reasonably well done.


im responding to this bit atm Dave, cos im rushing about. Myself, i will be having a trio of azureus in a 60cm cube (the depths insane on these, visually) hand made. I personally wont get involved in giving any BS "30cm minimum" line, because frankly, i feel like crap giving a trio of azureus only 60 cube and not something much larger for them to enjoy. at the end of the day, the enclosures we provide for them are vastly undersized compared to what they'd have available to them, not everyone's got a rainforest in their garden i know aha, or a vast amount of space. I personally feel far too many people will look at the space they've got, and instead of having say 4 decent sized vivs, they'll cram 8 pint sized vivs so they can have as many shiny baubles as possible in them. obviously people have and do keep frogs in 30cube exo's etc

someone has to make this point. I understand what these guys are wanting to do, and whilst annoyed, i wasn't wanting to get into slagging them off, but got irked. Regardless of how well executed this mechanism may end up being, they need to up their sizes for me. i have a big issue with how you guys are running this x gallon per frog thing, because for me this is a prime example, 14gallon is 'okay', but thats volume, not size, so in reality, you'd tell me 20 gallon would be 'okay' but it could be 15cm's deep 40wide and 60 high or some crap. my main concern isnt damaging anyone's business, i care about these bloody frogs mate


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

bsr8129 said:


> I have seen these and also have my doubts on how they are cramming all the "stuff" they say they are going to be able to do in that small of a footprint. for example
> 
> 1. Integrated misting system, where is the pump and reservoir for this system going to be?
> 
> ...


I appears the pumps and resevoir are in the back of the unit behind the aquaponics wall. It is about 3" or so deep in the back it looks like (and as tall and almost as wide as the unit). That's enough room for a microdiaphram water pump and w/e air pump they are using. Guessing the computer control is sealed up in the bottom stand of this thing. Wouldn't take a very big arduino type setup to run everything in here (this thing could be controlled by a chip probably no bigger than 4"x4" if that) Misting is running inside the enclosure from what I can tell (looks like clear hoses going from the bottom rear corners to the top front or something). BTW at least half the job of getting it produced is done. It's over twice the initial funding target. Just up to the manufacturers to come through. I'm prepared to experience possible delays, I'm in no rush to get into darts and want to make sure I'm thoroughly researched and prepped before I pull the plug on the actual darts.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> I really don't like the tone that this conversation took very early on. OP didn't deserve that at all. Seems like this is an unfair hijack of the OP's thread. How about if we keep the discussion of the hardware in the other thread where that is already occurring? This stuff needs to be discussed, but maybe not in the beginner discussion section?
> 
> Rushthezeppelin, I think this would look awesome if it comes together the way the marketing materials indicate it will. Is the one you linked the 31 gallon size? If you are looking at tincs, I would go with the big one. Tincs tend to like a bit more floor space. That's just my opinion, though.
> 
> ...


Yes I will be doing the 31g size. Not sure how I'm going to arrange the bottom but I know they climb and I wan't to maximize that with a stump type planter on one side, a large vine log spanning across a few inches above sub and possibly even a small bonsai ficus if I can fit it in.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Meefloaf said:


> im responding to this bit atm Dave, cos im rushing about. Myself, i will be having a trio of azureus in a 60cm cube (the depths insane on these, visually) hand made. I personally wont get involved in giving any BS "30cm minimum" line, because frankly, i feel like crap giving a trio of azureus only 60 cube and not something much larger for them to enjoy. at the end of the day, the enclosures we provide for them are vastly undersized compared to what they'd have available to them, not everyone's got a rainforest in their garden i know aha, or a vast amount of space. I personally feel far too many people will look at the space they've got, and instead of having say 4 decent sized vivs, they'll cram 8 pint sized vivs so they can have as many shiny baubles as possible in them. obviously people have and do keep frogs in 30cube exo's etc
> 
> someone has to make this point. I understand what these guys are wanting to do, and whilst annoyed, i wasn't wanting to get into slagging them off, but got irked. Regardless of how well executed this mechanism may end up being, they need to up their sizes for me. i have a big issue with how you guys are running this x gallon per frog thing, because for me this is a prime example, 14gallon is 'okay', but thats volume, not size, so in reality, you'd tell me 20 gallon would be 'okay' but it could be 15cm's deep 40wide and 60 high or some crap. my main concern isnt damaging anyone's business, i care about these bloody frogs mate


I do like to go way more than min usually on enclosure size myself (doing about twice room needed for garters atm and plan on much bigger). I certainly wish they had a bigger size (and he's certainly going to try and release some next year if things go to plan), but I will do my best to maximize space for these guys. Not just going to slap two broms, a fern and some moss in and call it a day. I'm going to give them as much vertical room as possible to use in this thing. I'm really leaning more towards the pair over the trio too. I want to find a breeding pair if possible (and if you guys think that's advisable for a noob that will spend months on research). If I get more they will get more room and eventually (if they come out) will get a bigger one for breeding pair and maybe use this one for growout after that.


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## biopod (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi Everyone!

Yes it is amazing - we started designing & developing biopod in 2001 - Lots of R&D to fit everything in a tight package! 

Our site:

Biopod

Kickstarter link:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2099003506/worlds-first-smart-microhabitat

Thanks again for your support! 

Best regards,

Jared


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Meefloaf said:


> im responding to this bit atm Dave, cos im rushing about. Myself, i will be having a trio of azureus in a 60cm cube (the depths insane on these, visually) hand made. I personally wont get involved in giving any BS "30cm minimum" line, because frankly, i feel like crap giving a trio of azureus only 60 cube and not something much larger for them to enjoy. at the end of the day, the enclosures we provide for them are vastly undersized compared to what they'd have available to them, not everyone's got a rainforest in their garden i know aha, or a vast amount of space. I personally feel far too many people will look at the space they've got, and instead of having say 4 decent sized vivs, they'll cram 8 pint sized vivs so they can have as many shiny baubles as possible in them. obviously people have and do keep frogs in 30cube exo's etc
> 
> someone has to make this point. I understand what these guys are wanting to do, and whilst annoyed, i wasn't wanting to get into slagging them off, but got irked. Regardless of how well executed this mechanism may end up being, they need to up their sizes for me. i have a big issue with how you guys are running this x gallon per frog thing, because for me this is a prime example, 14gallon is 'okay', but thats volume, not size, so in reality, you'd tell me 20 gallon would be 'okay' but it could be 15cm's deep 40wide and 60 high or some crap. my main concern isnt damaging anyone's business, i care about these bloody frogs mate


My position is based on the assumption the person has the skills to create a viv that maximizes usable surface area. I wouldn't call a 30 gallon cube with 2 azureus under populated. I keep 3 red galacts in a 30gal cube and it feels about right, though I'm sure 4-5 would work, but not be ideal. 

BTW I applaud you for giving your frogs so much space.I also agree that many of us over here are to hung up on how many we can keep in what size tank and jam onto one rack. As I've progressed in the hobby, I find I enjoy having fewer but larger vivariums, and encourage others to take that path. 10gals have their uses but in my collection most everything ends up in something 20 or larger and I try to maximize surface. I am also moving towards 3 sided backgrounds instead of just a planted/hardscaped back wall. 

I think we share the same basic mentality, I just draw the line in a slightly different place. As for the 10gal guideline: I personally make a point of saying "guideline" because many of us used to say "rule" I agree that can lead to more people keeping frogs in less then optimal setups. The "guideline" is useful though as a minimum standard/starting point IMHO when novices ask. 

So basically I think having a few guidelines that help define a minimum standard and give people a starting point with some margin for error is useful, but like you think we should strive to do more then the minimum 

As for the Biopod I hope it is all it is cracked up to be and if it is I will probably want some of those larger sizes they have in the works. I do really like having more room from front to back. I like my 30gal cube a lot more then my standard 30. So a 30-45+ gallon cube or column style tank would get my attention.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Oh I was gonna mention cost is probably one reason they didn't go larger from front to back. That would require them to add more lighting to get coverage and probably a redesign of the top of the tank that contains the lights. The sizes they are offering in this first run let them use the same basic fixture probably in all 3 sizes. 

If the light does dawn/dusk and has timer and other options as they say (and i have no reason to doubt them) that probably wasn't cheap to develope. The cheapest plug and play fixture with automated dawn/dusk is still $70+ for the 20" model. At $150US for the "ONE", that light alone may be worth half the cost of the entire setup, and they squeezed in automated misting, airation/ventilation, uvb led (not cheap) and an HD camera.If it all works as well as they say it does, even at full price that is a lot of functionality and value you'd be getting for your money IMHO


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

Meefloaf said:


> the first being the quality of the leds being used, airflow and the fact that if the system breaks, the whole viv shuts down. but mainly size tbh, understand it being their first run out, so they dont want to go too large, but i agree with a sentiment i've seen somewhere else _*"it's a shame the development did not go into a decent sized enclosure rather than promoting the standard inadequate glass coffins for our darts, gecko's and such."*_
> 
> i get myself in a not with people sacrificing adequate space for their Dart Frogs over the need to fill a space with as many as possible
> 
> mainly for the fact, im sure most people on here have seen people come and go from this hobby who will buy things like this because they have the cash, and cant be bothered to research what their desired pet needs, for them this is an easy cop out and i feel in the long run the animals will suffer due to this. its a plug and play system in theory, so folk can pick one off the shelf and bang a frog or ten in it from their local pets at home (petsmart for you guys ?)



do you have a source for 30 gallons being an inadequate sized glass coffin for dart frogs? i agree that bigger is usually always better regardless of what animal is being cared for, but was wondering if there was any published work online or in a book stating this, because everything i've read says that 30 gallons is plenty for a couple frogs. or is this your opinion and if so, what are your credentials? are you a part time worker at petsmart or do you have a doctorate in a relevant field? i value everyones opinions but some opinions are worth more then others.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

macuser said:


> do you have a source for 30 gallons being an inadequate sized glass coffin for dart frogs? i agree that bigger is usually always better regardless of what animal is being cared for, but was wondering if there was any published work online or in a book stating this, because everything i've read says that 30 gallons is plenty for a couple frogs. or is this your opinion and if so, what are your credentials? are you a part time worker at petsmart or do you have a doctorate in a relevant field? i value everyones opinions but some opinions are worth more then others.


The funny part is his argument got voided when they put out the Grand. PLENTY of room for a small group of frogs (I'm probably putting no more than 4 or 5 leucs in mine).


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> Yes I will be doing the 31g size. Not sure how I'm going to arrange the bottom but I know they climb and I wan't to maximize that with a stump type planter on one side, a large vine log spanning across a few inches above sub and possibly even a small bonsai ficus if I can fit it in.


You do know the 31 gallon one is the Aqua and is designed to have water all in the bottom, right? Which isn't good for terrestrial darts since they actually need lots of land. That's why there is such a distance from the floor of the enclosure to the living wall part but if you look at the 21 gallon one (aka the Terra) the false bottom and such is much lower to the ground and there isn't much of a distance at all from the living wall to the bottom. 
So unless you want to have a really high false bottom to reach your living wall there is gonna be a pretty big gap. 
I would go with the 21 gallon and lose out on some height and have the right Biopod suited for dart frogs. The Aqua/31 gallon is not the most suited biopod for terrestrial dart frogs. It is designed to be a paludarium with a good amount of water in the bottom. 
Or you gould go for broke and get the 89 gallon Grand which is massive



Rushthezeppelin said:


> The funny part is his argument got voided when they put out the Grand. PLENTY of room for a small group of frogs (I'm probably putting no more than 4 or 5 leucs in mine).


You're wanting to put 4-5 in the Aqua or the Grand?


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## C los7 (Sep 24, 2015)

The Aqua can be setup the exact same way as the terra. Meaning that the false bottom is lower and cover the entire footprint of the Aqua. You get both false bottoms when you order the Aqua. So it can be configured like the terra or it can have an island like it shows in the pictures of the Aqua. This is the same with the grand. Option for island or no island.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> You do know the 31 gallon one is the Aqua and is designed to have water all in the bottom, right? Which isn't good for terrestrial darts since they actually need lots of land. That's why there is such a distance from the floor of the enclosure to the living wall part but if you look at the 21 gallon one (aka the Terra) the false bottom and such is much lower to the ground and there isn't much of a distance at all from the living wall to the bottom.
> So unless you want to have a really high false bottom to reach your living wall there is gonna be a pretty big gap.
> I would go with the 21 gallon and lose out on some height and have the right Biopod suited for dart frogs. The Aqua/31 gallon is not the most suited biopod for terrestrial dart frogs. It is designed to be a paludarium with a good amount of water in the bottom.
> Or you gould go for broke and get the 89 gallon Grand which is massive
> ...


The aqua's false bottom box can be reconfigured so that the tank can basically be set up like any exo-terra/zoo med vivarium.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> The aqua's false bottom box can be reconfigured so that the tank can basically be set up like any exo-terra/zoo med vivarium.


Ah ok thanks for the clarification

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Rushthezeppelin welcome to the forum and the hobby! I think you've got a great potential tank coming and I can't wait to see your updates of it once you've set it up.

A friend of mine in the hobby sent me the kickstarter link. I think the idea is sweet and while the sizes may not fit everyone, as a start up I don't think someone can do everything at once. So I'm willing to see and I am strongly considering one myself. They look really nice.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

tardis101 said:


> Rushthezeppelin welcome to the forum and the hobby! I think you've got a great potential tank coming and I can't wait to see your updates of it once you've set it up.
> 
> A friend of mine in the hobby sent me the kickstarter link. I think the idea is sweet and while the sizes may not fit everyone, as a start up I don't think someone can do everything at once. So I'm willing to see and I am strongly considering one myself. They look really nice.


Ya it's totally understandable why he started out with only small sizes. He didn't even know if there would be enough demand for any of this, so he stayed smaller so that he could still meet a manufacturers min order size with a lower budget. He saw quickly that people wanted bigger though and released the Grand which is GREAT for 4-7 of most darts.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Also just to clarify on my current plans. I'm doing the Grand with probably 5 Luecs of two lines, thinking about getting two groups of unrelated lines and keeping the other froglets in a 40 breeder (I will have 2 40s for when they adults in case I get an even mix). Once sexed I will have them setup with only same sex siblings so that if/when I want to actually breed (I will cull eggs/tads until I'm ready) I can control them only breeding with the opposite line. 

40s will just be setup rather basic but I'm going all out with the biopod since it will be on display in my living room. Venezuelan biotope, probably foot of Tepuis type setup. I will have Cardinal Tetras in the water feature and hopefully can find some orinoco basin water plants for that. 

I'm going to start my cultures up a month or two beforehand too so I get the hang of that. Will also have plants in and growing along with custodians settling in for a month or two before the frogs come. Also I will be using the calcium enriched clay substrates (going to try and make a slightly acidic mix to match rainforest substrate) so that my custodians are extra nutritious.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> Also just to clarify on my current plans. I'm doing the Grand with probably 5 Luecs of two lines, thinking about getting two groups of unrelated lines and keeping the other froglets in a 40 breeder (I will have 2 40s for when they adults in case I get an even mix). Once sexed I will have them setup with only same sex siblings so that if/when I want to actually breed (I will cull eggs/tads until I'm ready) I can control them only breeding with the opposite line.
> 
> 40s will just be setup rather basic but I'm going all out with the biopod since it will be on display in my living room. Venezuelan biotope, probably foot of Tepuis type setup. I will have Cardinal Tetras in the water feature and hopefully can find some orinoco basin water plants for that.
> 
> I'm going to start my cultures up a month or two beforehand too so I get the hang of that. Will also have plants in and growing along with custodians settling in for a month or two before the frogs come. Also I will be using the calcium enriched clay substrates (going to try and make a slightly acidic mix to match rainforest substrate) so that my custodians are extra nutritious.


Be careful which luec lines you mix... I think those are one of the frogs in the hobby that we don't usually mix lines because the frogs came from different places, or we aren't sure exactly where they came from.

Now if you mean getting 2 groups of the same line from different breeders in the hopes to have as unrelated animals as possible that's cool.

I'd start a thread to ask which lines are mixable if any if you can't dig up the info yourself. i'm sure people will be happy to chime in


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Thanks for the clarification Dave. Not talking about mixing fine spot with normals or anything. Is there only one line of normals in the industry?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> Thanks for the clarification Dave. Not talking about mixing fine spot with normals or anything. Is there only one line of normals in the industry?


Well that's where it gets tricky. I think most of the luec varieties are kept seperate because we have I think 2 varieties of banded luecs, then the old lines that contain the orange, yellow, and what are known as greenfoot luecs, chocolate, clown (And any of the frogs that fall within this "Standard" morph are probably the ones that are going to be most ok to mix), then I guess fine spot are a separate line that is in fact kept separate still etc...etc... 

...Like if you could find some chocolate luecs, some orangish green foot luecs, and a particular line called "clown" luecs, *I THINK* all 3 of those could be mixed within the same tank, and all you'd be doing is undoing some of the line breeding most of us frown upon, but you'd have 3 fairly distinct looking types of frogs in one tank, which would be cool for display without pissing off the community 

Then you have the newer and last I saw high dollar Cerro Autana (blue foot or Green foot in Europe (Different then our "green foot")) ...Which should definately be kept separate from all others. 

Here are some links that might be helpful, and it might be worth asking josh at josh's frogs since he has dealt with most of these lines...

(Somewhat outdated, but a starting point)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheet-creation/12669-dendrobates-leucomelas-novice-posted.html

Josh's luec for sale page that has most of the varieties listed and some info...
Dendrobates leucomelas for Sale | Poison Dart Frogs for Sale | Josh's Frogs

Josh's story of blue foot/Cerro Autana luecs...
Blue Foot Leucs - a Success Story - Josh's Frogs How-To Guides for Reptiles & Amphibians

Other useful threads...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/dendrobates/205961-leuc-morphs-lines.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/dendrobates/83082-green-footed-leucomelas.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/239585-new-hobby-blue-foot-leuc-info.html

Luecs are one of the more complicated beginner frogs when it comes to what can be mixed with what. Most of the other large beginner frogs if you get the morph right you are usually OK (For instance as far as I know it is not just ok, but encouraged that all lines of Azureus be mixed), (but don't bet on it... It's a case by case thang, so check yo self before you wreck yo self!) 
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*And never be afraid to post asking what the 411 is on mixing a particular specie's varieties or morphs within the hobby.* It's best to do a search but the info is spread out over multiple posts/threads and multiple years so I think most people are going to be happy to help and/or discuss it... and won't jump on people who ask, because most of us would rather people ask and for sure get it right then wing it and screw up. Asking about this kinda mixing won't bring out the torches and pitchforks because we see that you are trying to respect the community's wishes, and not asking about mixing species or creating designer frogs 

Because we don't want this....


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Thanks for the brief insight Dave.

I was thinking about azures or some other tinc morph but decided against in when I upgraded to the grand since doing groups with them is very much on a case by case basis and doesn't always work out too well. Seems like Leucs are the best larger group beginner morph that will actually utilize vertical space as much as horizontal which is perfect for this setup I was thinking. Also do want something bold and not too shy for my first frogs too. As far as I can tell Leucs are darn near the only frog that fit in that category. Is there something else you can think of that would work? I've already done alot of research into Venezuelan biotope setup but wouldn't mind doing more on a different locale


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> Thanks for the brief insight Dave.
> 
> I was thinking about azures or some other tinc morph but decided against in when I upgraded to the grand since doing groups with them is very much on a case by case basis and doesn't always work out too well. Seems like Leucs are the best larger group beginner morph that will actually utilize vertical space as much as horizontal which is perfect for this setup I was thinking. Also do want something bold and not too shy for my first frogs too. As far as I can tell Leucs are darn near the only frog that fit in that category. Is there something else you can think of that would work? I've already done alot of research into Venezuelan biotope setup but wouldn't mind doing more on a different locale


Galacs are another large frog that in my experience aren't to shy about climbing: though my experience is exclusively with the Red morph. 

I think if you make an effort to put large pieces of drift wood and/or rock ledges on the background/sides, then maybe some thick vines and broad leafed plants you will find most frogs will probably use a lot of the vertical space. I can't promise that will be true, but I think part of the reason most people don't report most larger frogs climbing more is because they just don't have a setup that promotes it. Why would a frog bother to scale a vertical cork background and/or try to climb up plants/objects that don't really support it's weight or offer it good places to feed/hide/call/thermoregulate... You look for those things in a lot of setups and you won't find them as often as you might think... or should. I preach it, and even I'm sometimes guilty of not doing as well at providing it as I could in every vivarium. One way way to construct a viv that will inherently provide a lot of levels and the attributes I mentioned is basically just a big log pile. Lot's of drift wood piled up, stacked on top of each other, leaned against the background...

It provides a lot of the same benefits as leaf litter, but allows you places for moss, and all kinds of interesting planting opportunities and then you can do some litle "pools" of leaf litter at the base in and amongst the log pile. A tank made that way will provide a tremendous amount of usable surface area and will likely have a booming microfauna population the frogs will never be able to decimate unless you over populate the tank and/or never give the microfauna a chance to get established before unleashing the frogs on them. 

Luecs are good choice though as a good group frog, a highly visible frog given that it is a large vivarium, and with the variety among the "standard" lines; with some effort you can put together a several frogs that are technically the same type but fairly distinctive in appearance. 

Galacs you would need to stick to one color morph that are pretty much going to all look the same, more so then what is possible with luecs.

Another option might be superblue, green and bronze (some of these and the superblues are actually the same frog, but the bluer ones were separated out; I think you'd be looking for green and bronze that originated from SNDF and/or Adam Butt), or highland bronze auratus (Similar to superblue/green and bronze but a different locality and not to be mixed with the superblue or green/bronze lines). 

They may be a bit more shy, but they can range from green, to teal, to dark blue and some of the superblue/green and bronze throw melanistic frogs sometimes especially ones that came from a guy on here called "Frograck", so again with a little work you can put together frogs that are all the same morph but can look fairly distinctive from each other. 

I favor red and/or blue frogs, so I'd probably go that route, but I did have some luecs years back before an ice storm wiped out most of my collection and even though I'm not terribly fond of yellow/orange frogs I did enjoy them. Maybe it is because the are kinda bumble bee looking, and pretty bold/active... I don't know, but if you like yellow/orange it's pretty hard to go wrong with luecs... as long as you don't get tripped up and confused by all the varieties 

I don't generally bother trying to do biotope tanks. I just use the plants I like (and have) but they are cool, and I do like the idea... also I think if you do one well and go through the effort to find the right plants and make a good thread about it, it will earn you some street cred in the eyes of many of us


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