# D. HISTRIONICUS illegal in the U.S.?



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, I found a website that had a species called D. HISTRIONICUS, they are some sweet frogs, I have never heard of them being sold. Can anybody answer this question for me? Thanks, Curt.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I believe they were legally imported a couple of times years ago, but none recently.

Histros do not do well in captivity in most cases, and can be very hard to impossible to breed. So basically just a great looking frog that at this time is unrealistic for all most all hobbiests. Most of the recent pictures out of other countries are of smuggled animals as at least to my knowledge there have not been any recent exports of them.

Im sure someone will speak up with more specifics than I have, but this is my general understanding.


----------



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks for the reply Kyle, they are very pretty frogs, to bad you can't breed them in a viv.


Thanks, Curt.


----------



## markc019 (Apr 12, 2005)

If I could get my hands on them I would try to breed those little suckers :lol: Are they prone to stress or do they need to select a mate? I would love to get some and try them in a huge over planted viv ..

~Mark


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I really do not have the specifics and not many people do. People have bred them in captivity but it is my understanding it is rare, and not easy.


----------



## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I never found them particularly difficult to keep or prone to stress. I use to have a trio of bulls eyes and they were no harder to keep than D. auratus. In fact they came in very, very thin and I figured I'd wasted the money ($25 each), but they recovered well and fast. Beautiful frogs when I sent them to a friend (who ended up killing them) - jet back with a round red dot in the middle of the back. 

Best,

Chuck


----------



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Could you tell us where you bought them from? I would really like a few of them just as display frogs. Thanks, Curt.


----------



## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Curt61 said:


> Could you tell us where you bought them from? I would really like a few of them just as display frogs. Thanks, Curt.


He bought those YEARS ago. You probably won't find anybody who will sell you legal histos, and none will be sold under several (4) hundred dollars. These guys are very very hard to breed, and haven't shown the greatest successes as captives either. 

Sorry, but you should probably put your eyes on another frog. I share your desire for them though...


----------



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Awwwww, he really got my hopes up when he said he got some for 25 bucks a piece or something like that. I guess I'l have to look for another type of frog.

Thanks, Curt.


----------



## PAULSCHUMANN (Apr 20, 2005)

I used to get them in all the time for a pet store I used to manage at 25$ each. They were very easy to keep and I don't ever recal any of them dieing. Breeding them was also easy, however the main problem most people have is getting the froglets to live much longer than a few months.

I wish I knew then what I know now. These days, even a cheap Histo can run 500$ each or more


----------



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, what was the problem with getting them to live over a few months?



Curt.


----------



## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Someone might want to correct me on this, but it was determined that young histos weren't getting enough calcium gluconate and other minerals wasn't it? They are beautiful frogs and it would be great if they were more widely bred.


----------



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Well if that was the only problem then why don't people start breeding them? sounds like there is big bucks in this (500 each frog) if someone can figure out how to breed them secessfully.
As of right now they are way out of my price range, but if people start to breed them maybe the price will start to come down.

Curt.


----------



## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

I worked with a successful breeder in Europe (and in Canada, but he cut ties with me because I revealed who he was and that he was breeding them... what a jerk) but cant seem to find any to start breeding them in North America.


----------



## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Sorry, double post :roll:


----------



## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

There aren't very many of them in the US to breed and have a good number of bloodlines. That and they are a Colombian frog and it is near impossible to get export permits for frogs out of the country now. As I mentioned earlier, the calcium gluconate issue many not be correct or the not the only problem these frogs face in capitivity.


----------



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, oh ok. Well you could still make a decent amount of money if you bought a breeding pair and breed them.


Curt.


----------



## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

The main problems we experienced where calcium deficiency, need for small food (dont need food like springtails, but eat better when given smaller foods and stay fatter), larger enclosures (4.5'x4.5'x4.5' is what we used), and surrogate mothers for extra infertile eggs to feed to tads (histros seemed to not care for their tads as well in captivity; going by our experience).

Also, some morphs like the new Koi histros require a fairly tall viv as the male will be reluctant to call a female if his perch is not high enough.

Oh... and all vivs have to have the hell planted out of them.

Please note this is not a guide but only personal experience and techniques that worked for us. Many people have no success with this frog.


----------



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, so do you still have your Histros? Have you sucesfully breed them before? Well some of us don't care if we have to have a taller then normal tank to have a frog that is sweet looking.  
BTW, this is off topic but does anybody know how much a used 80 gallon tank should sell for?

Thanks, Curt.


----------



## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

That sounds pretty difficult to breed to me. It's one thing to get the know that it doesn't take much prodding to get the frogs to do it, but it's a whole other issue of setting everything up properly and maintaining that. 

Hopefully one day in the future we will have a stable population of these guys in the hobby. Unlikely, but why lose hope?


----------



## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Check This Out.

Some interesting info on histos. The way i see it, if someone with that much experience had that much trouble, i'd rather not risk killing animals that are endangered anyway. Maybe someday someone will figure out the key to breeding them and we'll all have them, but for now i say leave em to the experts. I'm not telling anyone they shouldn't try, but that's how i look at it (and trust me, i'd love to have some bulls-eyes).


----------



## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

I hate to say this, but Histos are not endangered in the wild. Only lehmanni, vittatus, and terribilis are endangered in the wild. All of the the things they need to breed are easily found in the forest there. Histos are one of the dart frogs listed as LC (least concern) on the Red List. It is funny though, in 1993, the first dart frog I ever saw in person was a histo at a pet shop for $22 at a Christmas sale. Of course now that's really unlikely to show up in a pet shop now  

They are nice frogs, but until some massive breakthrough comes from breeding them, we have to enjoy the photos of them.


----------



## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Yeah, sorry that wasn't quite what i meant. I was referring to the fact that they are rare in the hobby. I try not to use the word "rare" whenever possible because it seems to make people think the animals are some kind of "trophy" they must get.


----------



## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

RGB said:


> Yeah, sorry that wasn't quite what i meant. I was referring to the fact that they are rare in the hobby. I try not to use the word "rare" whenever possible because it seems to make people think the animals are some kind of "trophy" they must get.


I understand, I just wanted to clear up their wild status. Many new people join this hobby hoping to help an endangered dart frog species only to later find out the frogs they keep are actually quite common. We really shouldn't feel like any of the frogs are a trophy even if some are harder to find at the moment than others. Just stick with a species you enjoy (within legal boundaries, of course) and you can be happy without having a "trophy frog".


----------



## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

for the rarer frogs you don't usually have to worry about people getting them who don't have enough experience. having the money is the easy part, having the contacts to know where to get said frogs is the tough part and usually only comes with experience and time in the hobby


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

no, a lot of the time money wins out over experience.
I`ve seen "beginner froggers"(less then 2 years in the hobby) walk out of shows w/ histos and speciosus and when I asked the list was too long.
If you have spent a lot of money or are in the "clique" you have a better chance than being in the hobby 10 years or more.
Sorry, I get frustrated after working w/ darts this long and I can`t get my hands on any. And in this case sugar gets better than vinegar, but I`m past that point.
hopefully I`ll be getting some w/ permits next month, muwhahahaha.
I`ve been hearing more and more about columbia loosening up, it`s only a matter of time. There are "farms" down there waiting to get permits from the fed gov`t as they`ve already got permission to farm them locally, just no export at this time. It`s being worked on though.


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Aaron, you must have heard this from the same place that I did. Hopefully it works out and we can get legal exports soon.

As a few above have said, if it was just as easy as having mone and asking for them, many of us would have them. Unfortunately teh probelm has several layers. First, and most obviously, you have to have some pretty deep pockets to even be able to afford these. Second, as Aaron stated, you have to know the right people or have direct connections to someone that is working with them in order to ever have a chance to get them. Even if you hear of someone that is working with them, just dropping them a line and saying you're interested isn't going to cut it. Like Matt (NCSUdart) said, in order for those people to feel comfortable with the idea of letting histos go to you, you most likely will have had to prove yourself and your husbandr skills to them. If you hit a someone with histos and tell them you've bred a couple of auratus and tincs, your chances might not be so good but if you are able to say that you have bred some difficult thumbs and pumilio or other eggfeeders then your chances are probably good. Unfortunately, like Aaron said, there are some that will sell them to the highest dollar but I think most responsible breeders that have these have steered away form this practice and are gearing their sales mostly towards people that they think have a fair to good chance breeding them. Frogs like these should NEVER be obtained just because they "look sweet". If you want these frogs it will take a lot of work, networking, saving, and luck and the goal in getting them should be to help sustain and maybe advance the species in the hobby, not because they lok cool. I guess the end comment I have is that frogs like histos, lehmanni, granuliferous, speciosus (probably spelled a few wrong) etc. are frogs that, at least for now, are only obtainable by people with the right connections, ability to succeed with them, the confidence that they are ready for them and lastly, have the money to buy them.


----------



## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

I have had success with histros in Europe and have 75gal histro tanks waiting for them. I never realized how hard they would be to find in North America. I guess my dream of having my babies back is fading away.

Oh... and by the way I read the article posted by RGB and it is in most part the same as to what we have done in the past. He is correct in stating that springtails are needed for the froglets to stay healthy and grow. Our springtails were dusted with vitamins too, not just the fruitflies. As for getting the females to feed the tads he had some good success. We sometimes had to resort to a secondary female for extra eggs. We have noticed that not just any broms will do either. Even though the histro tads and froglets are fairly tiny the larger broms were preferred to medium to small broms. By large I mean center cup having a diameter of approximately 1" or larger.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I just hope if they do come in again that they are not up for public sale, and yet are sold only to the most experienced breeders in hopes of keeping them going.


----------



## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

if they do come in, i think they will go to whoever has the cash... just like the pumilio.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Sad but true...


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

kyle1745 said:


> I just hope if they do come in again that they are not up for public sale, and yet are sold only to the most experienced breeders in hopes of keeping them going.


Unfortunately that dips into that area of "What is experience" again. How do you set a standard for who is or isn't worthy. Do you have to have been in the hobby for X amount of years or just have a proven track record of being capable? Are we still working under the idea that time is experience or are we talking about the amount and quality of work you have done in the time you've been around? Don't get me wrong, I agree with your comment, but I don't think it is quite so easy to define and separate just who is the most experienced or most capable. I don't want to derail the thread and get into a discussion about what enough experience is as there is already a thread on that, but just wanted to address the point.


----------



## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

You all have excellent points. Unfortunately, many people will go for what brings in the cash instead of trying to establish them. 

The other point is who will decide who is skilled enough to deal with the histos? Some people may have bred several dart frog species, but even then are they qualified to do this? I would hate to see elitist attitudes pop up in this hobby because "I have X frog and you don't". But then again, there already are some breeders like that who won't even sell to people who are new or don't post on the boards.


----------



## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

NCSUdart said:


> for the rarer frogs you don't usually have to worry about people getting them who don't have enough experience. having the money is the easy part, having the contacts to know where to get said frogs is the tough part and usually only comes with experience and time in the hobby


Matt, shut-up :wink: LOL


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

experience, blah. Just desire, dedication and perceptiveness is needed to breed them. There is something missing in their diet or temps are the problem from what I can gather.
Experience? How many people are posting Escudo pics of their offspring already. I don`t remember seeing any of those people posting pumilio for sale yet(before breeding escudos). Some people have it. Some people get good pairs. There`s db for questions. 
Experience may be helpful but doesnt = squat if you don`t get a "good" pair. Pair 1 of my escudos produced 1 small offspring, pair 2 produced 4 healthy froglets.
Sometimes someone w/ more drive than experience can do better because they don`t have as many preconceptions and use their observational skills to figure them out while everyone else is doing nothing but asking questions from an audience that doesn`t have much experience or if they do they`re not posting here.


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I have a whole new theory about this and Kyle or any other mod feel free to split this off to a new thread if you so desire. What if the reason that histrionicus are perceived to be so hard to breed is that when they were around in abundance there just wasn't enough knowledge about their needs to have a successful breeding program. It seems to me that the idea of supplementing with calcium gluconate for froglets is a rather new idea and seems to increased survivability substantially and the importance of keeping histos in very large enclosures seems to have been understated in the past. I have seen a number of pics of histos in small vivs in the past so I don't really think the large enclosure rule was held as tightly in the past. Also, I believe that many of us are now trying to include as many different types of food as possible rather than just the staple FF adn crickets. Unfortunately most of the histos that came in back in the day are no longer around so one reason they are so scarce is the true lack of numbers. I wonder with the advances in husbandry in the last couple of years if breeding efforts might be more successful now. Let me go ahead and throw out that I do NOT think histos are or would be easy to breed, but I wonder if our recent advances would make a substantial improvement in survivability rates in the more rare frogs such as histrionicus. What do you think?


----------



## 955i (Mar 23, 2006)

I agree that advances in the knowledge of breeding darts could give histrionicus a better chance in the hobby when they come around again.

I remember it was not that long ago we were being told it was impossible to breed pumilio in captivity but that idea has changed drastically in recent years.


----------



## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

955i said:


> I remember it was not that long ago we were being told it was impossible to breed pumilio in captivity but that idea has changed drastically in recent years.


You have a point there. Just look how many pumilio are in the classifieds now. Especially bastimentos...


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

955i said:


> I agree that advances in the knowledge of breeding darts could give histrionicus a better chance in the hobby when they come around again.
> 
> I remember it was not that long ago we were being told it was impossible to breed pumilio in captivity but that idea has changed drastically in recent years.


Hopefully someday we'll get that chance.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

How many of the pumilio in the classifieds are captive born? Not nearly as many as you think. Even better how many are captive born from captive born parents? Id best next to "0".

While I see the points I think the availability of pumilio in general is good, but I would say we are far from breeding them well. How many of the offspring live long enough to produce offspring of their own? I know more than a number of people who have lost every captive born pumilio they bought, and are now raising froglets from recent imports. I just do not think the offspring do as well as some people are ready to believe or lead others to believe.


----------



## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, you do have a point. It would still be nice to have a few more types of PDF's to have that arn't outragous priced. It would give us a bit more of a selection of frogs  


Just my 2 cents, Curt.


----------

