# Leucamalas Morph?



## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

I think I have banded here but do banded have green toes as babies? Do they get more spots as they grow if not banded? I was not told the specific morph when purchased but I think it shouldn't be to hard with leucs because there aren't too many. Looking for somebody to chime in with experience on these guys. I'm not looking to determine the specific line or import year just the basic morph.

I can get a better picture if it would help.


2 big spots in main band









Other one with no spots









Both together where you can see toes


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

The responses here are going to be exactly the same as your auratus thread. 

No one but the breeder would (should) know the lineage (morph) of a frog.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

I understand that. I guess I am trying to figure out what is a standard Leucamalas such as what Josh's Frogs sell at this point. Are those just crossed with everything and the origin was lost? I get there is no way of saying at this point these were imported in 1982 and are green toes. I'm looking for a little more generic than that like would it be fine to just say these are standard Leucamalas. The fine spots and chocolates were created in the hobby and it's obviously not those.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

"Standard leucomelas' is a morph of its own. It is not a cross, and is not a catch-all. It is the name of the morph. There are quite a few species of darts that have a morph/locale called 'standard' -- typically it is the first one described/brought into the hobby.

I said this on the other thread of yours, but I'll say it here for clarity: fine spot leucs are not selectively bred -- they are a naturally occurring morph from Venzuela, likely Estado Bolivar. There are a couple pics of wild frogs on pp 540-541 of Lotters that are likely what we call Fine Spot.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

It's true, only the breeder knows for sure.
But, were they sold to you as standard leucs from Josh's? If so, I wouldn't question it. They look like standard leuc froglets to me. The patterns on froglets are not the same as when they are adults; it will develop more with age. 

I'm no "expert", but I do keep 2 morphs of leucomelas, and my breeding group of standards produced over 50 froglets last year.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> "Standard leucomelas' is a morph of its own. It is not a cross, and is not a catch-all. It is the name of the morph. There are quite a few species of darts that have a morph/locale called 'standard' -- typically it is the first one described/brought into the hobby.
> 
> I said this on the other thread of yours, but I'll say it here for clarity: fine spot leucs are not selectively bred -- they are a naturally occurring morph from Venzuela, likely Estado Bolivar. There are a couple pics of wild frogs on pp 540-541 of Lotters that are likely what we call Fine Spot.


I might have made a mistake with the fine spots and it was only the chocolates that were selectively bred. I forget where I read it.

Then what would these be based on the history of the hobby section and I mistakenly said standard?

https://www.joshsfrogs.com/dendrobates-leucomelas-bumble-bee-dart-frog.htm


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I'll tag in. I have read a lot of good stuff in both of the threads that you started that say the same thing. I will repeat that you cannot know what morph a frog is based on how they look. No one can tell you but the breeder. If the breeder can't tell you which morph your frogs are, you shouldn't breed them. I should also say that you should be buying your frogs from breeders that know exactly what morphs they are and where they got them.

As a side note, I don't like how skinny these froglets are. The front legs, especially, look too small (in width, not length). Another possibility is that these frogs are much too small to have been sold. I have a hard time telling how small they are from the pictures. Are they smaller than a dime?

Are the frogs eating well? What are you feeding your frogs? What are you supplementing with (what vitamins are you using)? I want to make sure that these frogs have a path back to health, if they are underweight. 

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Jeeze, I didn't even look at the pics. Good catch, Mark.

Are those frogs from Josh's? When did you receive them?


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Encyclia said:


> I'll tag in. I have read a lot of good stuff in both of the threads that you started that say the same thing. I will repeat that you cannot know what morph a frog is based on how they look. No one can tell you but the breeder. If the breeder can't tell you which morph your frogs are, you shouldn't breed them. I should also say that you should be buying your frogs from breeders that know exactly what morphs they are and where they got them.
> 
> As a side note, I don't like how skinny these froglets are. The front legs, especially, look too small (in width, not length). Another possibility is that these frogs are much too small to have been sold. I have a hard time telling how small they are from the pictures. Are they smaller than a dime?
> 
> ...


I get it's impossible to tell the line at this point and that was drilled into me. I will never make that mistake again but I was surprised to see Josh's Frogs say they are selling Leucamelas that flat out specify they were created from crossing lines when I was trying to determine what I had. If that was the case is it wrong to just say they are Dendrobates Leucamelas and never specify a line or is even that wrong.

- As for the size I think these fall into the they were too small to sell size. They are like 3/4 the size of my pinky nail and struggle to even eat a melongaster fruit fly missing a few times before catching them still. I watch them eat a few each before walking away when I feed them. If they miss they kind of sit there for a few minutes almost like they think they just ate something. I then come back open the top and blow on the flies to make them move around.
- I'm using Rapashy Calcium Plus

My Auratus were a little bigger when I got them and also terrible hunters. Once they became better hunters it seemed like they turned into little marbles overnight and doubled in size. You can see them in my other thread.

I have regular blue Azureus that thank god don't seem to go through this level of scrutiny that I also got when they were this size. They are going though this transformation now from seeming almost useless to becoming assassins.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Jeeze, I didn't even look at the pics. Good catch, Mark.
> 
> Are those frogs from Josh's? When did you receive them?


They are not from Josh's I got them from a local petstore. I was just asking a generic question since they have ones that didn't specify a local and mentioned being a cross of lines.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Got it. Please don't give any more money to that store, for anything. Everything you need can be shipped to you.

Line ≠ morph/locale. Shouldn't cross lines either, but it is different.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Thanks for answering my question. I was just asking because that was an example from from a site that is a goto site for many newbies in the hobby and if I bought those you wouldn't know anything about them and there are many online listed the same way. Most things on that site are precise but if I bought those I would be asking the same questions. Oh and a cross of lines doesn't even say what lines, morphs, locales 
I think real answer is people do it, just because people do something you shouldn't and it is frowned upon in the hobby. If you want to breed them pay $10 more and know for sure what you are buying. If you breed them anyway don't try and guess what they are it is to late. Just say they are Leucamalas because obviously they are that.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

Just a quick chime in here, but wanted to address your question about the green toes. To my knowledge, all luec morphs can have some green tint to their toes at some point in their lifespan. Usually as froglets and then fades as they age. I've had standard and fine spots with some green toes. It's completely gone away now on my standards after having them around 2 years. Cerro Autana Leuc's (blue foot leuc's) will keep the blue color I believe.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I have standards; some have the green, some don’t. They’re about a year old, give or take.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

bssknox said:


> Just a quick chime in here, but wanted to address your question about the green toes. To my knowledge, all luec morphs can have some green tint to their toes at some point in their lifespan. Usually as froglets and then fades as they age. I've had standard and fine spots with some green toes. It's completely gone away now on my standards after having them around 2 years. Cerro Autana Leuc's (blue foot leuc's) will keep the blue color I believe.


Thanks. As stated I will never know what mine are but I noticed their was a morph that was called something like 1995 green foot. Sounds like they all can have it.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sorry, I wasn't following the chronology of the two threads correctly. It seemed like you were ignoring what people were saying, but I don't think that's the case. Some folks only listen when given the answers that they were looking for. I apologize for thinking that is what was going on here.

I am not too sure about what Josh's Frogs is talking about with regard to crossing lines, but that is probably more of a comment on my ignorance than it is about Josh's Frogs' claim. I am not aware enough of what the line options are in Leucs to know much about what should be crossed vs. not. I will say that it seems that of all dart frogs I am aware of, lineage is murkiest with Leucs and there is less of an expectation with them that intact lineage information is available. This may just be my early experience with Leucs when I was just learning and maybe things have changed since I kept them. Folks are less likely to demand proper line information on frogs that are perceived as "beginner frogs" (which is unfair because Leucs are fantastic frogs to keep regardless of how much experience someone has. Those of you who deal with Leucs more than I do, please correct me if I am wrong on any of the above. It seems that "Standard Leucomelas" can mean a lot of things with regard to line, import year, locale, etc. That is less true of Auratus (though there are still some morphs of Auratus where similar things can be said). Many of the morphs/locales of Auratus seem to have reeeeaaaaaaallllly similar names and I get mixed up 

That is very small to be selling froglets, in my opinion. I understand how it happens. I sold some little bitty fellas when I was new to breeding, but I have since learned to hold onto them longer. Regardless, they should be able to eat melanogaster fruit flies. If they are having issues eating, I would move them to a smaller, simpler enclosure (maybe a plastic shoe box?) with just damp (not wet) paper towels in the bottom. I would then put maybe 10 dusted fruit flies in there and go away and leave them alone. If you absolutely have to, you can stay close, as still as you can, and watch them. Don't keep opening the enclosure, though. That is just going to stress them out. See if leaving them alone helps them take down some fruit flies. If you have access to spring tails, it wouldn't be a bad idea to put some of those in there, too. Not many. You want them to eat dusted fruit flies as soon as possible, but your description makes me think they might need to be eased onto fruit flies. What you need most right now is to get some food in them. Once they are eating fruit flies well, you will probably be fine.

Put your Calcium Plus in the fridge and make sure it's fresh. Toss it after it gets to 6 months since you opened it and replace it with a new bottle. For a long time, Calcium Plus is probably the only supplement you need. Use it at every feeding.

Best of luck!

Mark



aapuzzo said:


> I get it's impossible to tell the line at this point and that was drilled into me. I will never make that mistake again but I was surprised to see Josh's Frogs say they are selling Leucamelas that flat out specify they were created from crossing lines when I was trying to determine what I had. If that was the case is it wrong to just say they are Dendrobates Leucamelas and never specify a line or is even that wrong.
> 
> - As for the size I think these fall into the they were too small to sell size. They are like 3/4 the size of my pinky nail and struggle to even eat a melongaster fruit fly missing a few times before catching them still. I watch them eat a few each before walking away when I feed them. If they miss they kind of sit there for a few minutes almost like they think they just ate something. I then come back open the top and blow on the flies to make them move around.
> - I'm using Rapashy Calcium Plus
> ...


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Thanks. We are on the same page. I was more just trying to ask in the simplest terms could I just represent them as Leucs and not specify a linage like Josh's Frogs does with the one line they created. I definitely accepted the answer and was more asking can they be at least this .

As for eating they definitely are but just fail a bunch being so small so I keep an eye on them. They don't seem to mind trying again while I am sitting there watching them with the top off the box. I am actually using a 6qt shoebox size plastic container with an inch of sphagnum moss and oak/magnolia leaves on top. They can definitely eat the melanogaster fruit flies they just miss a few times and try again. I use the Calcium + every time and will start to refrigerate it like I do with my fruit fly mix and bug burger now that you mentioned it.

I would have bought them no matter what size they were since with Covid there are no reptile shows so I will take what I can get. I actually like to obtain young animals because it gives me a greater appreciation when I am the one that that raised them. I get it though from the standpoint of a community that you don't want to see people selling frogs to first time buyers only to have them die. I may be newer to frogs but I am not to reptiles. I keep a master culture of springtails and 4 types of isopods, various geckos, hognose snakes, abronias, ackie monitors, sugar gliders (have extremely specific care), honey bees, chickens, & a long list of stuff from the past.

I am a few months away from being 40 now and after everything else I have/had over the years I have come to love the frogs the most for some reason. I think it has a ton to do with how nice the enclosures can look. While a Chameleon can be impressive you need to keep them in a screen cage which looks terrible. Dart frogs are a complete package in a mini ecosystem. The enclosure is impressive in it's own right. Unlike some snakes that I think you can anthropomorphize and put into a giant bioactive enclosure to their detriment I truly think with frogs they benefit.

It amazes me how far the hobby has come over the years since I recently got back into it. The bad information you find online these days is still far better then the good information that used to be out there 15 years ago.


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## Fullmoonwanderer (Nov 14, 2019)

What line are you referring to that Josh’s frogs created?


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Fullmoonwanderer said:


> What line are you referring to that Josh’s frogs created?


https://www.joshsfrogs.com/dendrobates-leucomelas-bumble-bee-dart-frog.html

If you go to the Leucamalas page you will notice this specific frog is the only one that has their logo on it and no morph information. Not sure if that means anything. The natural range says Venezuela but no locale is known. The history in hobby section is what throws the red flags for me. I copy and pasted the 2 paragraphs straight from their website below. It flat out says they breed different lines to maintain genetic variation. Their other morphs make no mention of this.

I may have come off as argumentative in my earlier posts but that wasn't the case. Tone gets lost in message. I just wanted to know if these guys who seem genuinely accepted as a distributor they seem to have the specific morphs and one that is generic. Can I at least consider mine generic and just never specify a morph or locale.

Natural Range: Dendrobates leucomelas occurs in Colombia, Brazil, British Guyana, and Venezeula. This morph is from Venezuela, but specific locale information is not available. Bumble Bee Dart Frogs occur in humid rainforest among leaf litter, and can be found congregating in humid spaces under rocks or logs during the dry season. Leucs are considered a species of least concern by the IUCN, and can be quite common in the wild.


History in the Hobby: Dendrobates leucomelas have been a mainstay in the frog hobby since it's inception. Leuc popularity grew greatly in the 1990s, as many individuals were imported from Venezuela along with tropical fish. Josh's Frogs works with several lines of Dendrobates leucomelas, and pairs different lines with each other to maintain genetic variability in the frogs we sell.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

I think you're sort of confusing lines with morphs. Some people frown on line-breeding, which usually refers to breeding related frogs (like siblings) to each other. But if you get nominal leucs from "breeder X", and pair them with some from "breeder Y", hopefully they aren't closely related and therefore you're maintaining some genetic diversity. But they're still the same morph.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JPP said:


> I think you're sort of confusing lines with morphs. Some people frown on line-breeding, which usually refers to breeding related frogs (like siblings) to each other. But if you get nominal leucs from "breeder X", and pair them with some from "breeder Y", hopefully they aren't closely related and therefore you're maintaining some genetic diversity. But they're still the same morph.


Sort of; 'line breeding' has two different meanings. The one you mention is accurate, but is not what is at issue when someone recommends against crossing lines of frogs.

A 'line' of frogs is all the frogs and their offspring from one import event, or one breeder's group. An example: Ranitomeya imitator "Green" is a morph (also called 'standard' and (incorrectly) 'nominate'). There are at least three lines of this morph: Uhern, Sens, and Understory Enterprises* -- all named after the person/organization who first introduced that distinct line of that morph to captivity.

The reason not to cross lines is that they each represent distinct genetic backgrounds that are worth preserving for that reason alone -- so as not to muddle all the 'green' imis into one homogenized mass. 

It may (with a very high probability) turn out that these frogs are not related _in the way we think they are_; animals that all look alike may in fact turn out to be two distinct populations or even species that differ in e.g. their call. _R. imitator_ is a great example of this, of course, since various morphs of imitator imitate the appearance of at least three other species really well. 

These issues have made mutts of quite a few animals in the larger herp hobby: nearly all captive leopard geckos are a mix of subspecies, African house snakes are likely a complex of species, most of which have been crossed into captive populations. The taxonomic understanding of many captive herps is still very primitive, and the more we keep lines pure the more likely we will preserve animals that aren't mutts.



*Also called 'UE' (not to be confused with EU=European) -- this line has locality data and so while a line of the 'green' morph is more accurately referred to as "Cainarachi Valley")


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

aapuzzo said:


> Can I at least consider mine generic and just never specify a morph or locale.


Yes -- you might simply call yours _Dendrobates leucomelas_. If someone asked for further specificity, you might legitimately say "they look like "Standard" leucs, but I have no lineage information".


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes -- you might simply call yours _Dendrobates leucomelas_. If someone asked for further specificity, you might legitimately say "they look like "Standard" leucs, but I have no lineage information".


Awesome. That's all I was trying to understand once I was told I would never know for sure.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Sort of; 'line breeding' has two different meanings. The one you mention is accurate, but is not what is at issue when someone recommends against crossing lines of frogs.
> 
> A 'line' of frogs is all the frogs and their offspring from one import event, or one breeder's group. An example: Ranitomeya imitator "Green" is a morph (also called 'standard' and (incorrectly) 'nominate'). There are at least three lines of this morph: Uhern, Sens, and Understory Enterprises* -- all named after the person/organization who first introduced that distinct line of that morph to captivity.
> 
> ...


The question of this specific Josh's frogs Leuc does mention crossing lines which I understand is a grey area but unless I messed it never even mentions the morph. They do say Venezuela but does only one morph come from there? They definitely don't look like fine spots to me which I do believe comes from there.

I also want to make one thing clear. I wasn't using this to bash Josh's frogs. I was just using it as an example in trying to be able to help my frogs with an identity crisis


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

aapuzzo said:


> The question of this specific Josh's frogs Leuc does mention crossing lines which I understand is a grey area but unless I messed it never even mentions the morph. They do say Venezuela but does only one morph come from there? They definitely don't look like fine spots to me which I do believe comes from there.


I am under the impression that as far as _D. leucomelas_ goes (this doesn't necessarily apply to other species), all leucs in captivity that aren't a named morph (or a morph cross) are called 'Standard'; I take 'Standard' in leucs to be both a name and a sort of catch-all descriptor. I'd appreciate any further info on this from anyone, since this claim has a strange feel to it.

I believe (but can't confirm) that the Standard morph is from Venzuela and I don't know where else, and 'Fine Spot' and 'Bolivar' are found only in Venezuela, and 'Orange Banded' and 'Yellow Banded' only come from Guiana.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

I think they are just calling them Dendrobates Leucamelas and saying they crossed lines. The "standard" comment may have come from me when I was just trying to say Is it ok to say I have "Standard Leucs". What I meant was no affiliation to any morph? Is it ok for these to exist as I see people selling them lacking any morph info. Then I was shocked to see people chiming in saying you can't say they are "standards" because that is a specific thing too. 

That is why I brought attention to this Josh's Frogs listing because it seems to be doing what I was being told was unacceptable and I was trying to get at why is it OK in this case. Most sites that sell Leucs either are very specific or list no information at all. This was an example of a site that had it both ways. I understood people were saying you would never know what they are. It was the you have nice pets but don't breed them I didn't understand. Obviously never guess and misrepresent something. That listing doesn't mention them being standards or anything other than Leucs from what I can tell. Why do they get a free pass is what I was trying to say? I wanted to know what was I missing after being told mine are only pet quality and never to breed them.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Not everything that Josh's Frogs does is ideal.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

From what I’ve seen, I’m of the opinion they sometimes sell frogs that are too young/too small, especially to beginners. Some of their husbandry recommendations make me raise an eyebrow as well, but those are critiques, not a sweeping condemnation. 

I have no direct experience with their company, just going by what I’ve seen popping up both here and on Facebook. 


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## Organics (Jan 17, 2020)

Fahad said:


> From what I’ve seen, I’m of the opinion they sometimes sell frogs that are too young/too small, especially to beginners. Some of their husbandry recommendations make me raise an eyebrow as well, but those are critiques, not a sweeping condemnation.
> 
> I have no direct experience with their company, just going by what I’ve seen popping up both here and on Facebook.
> 
> ...



On the dart frog sub redidi.t I’ve noticed that small froglets have been coming from josh as well. 


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Socratic Monologue said:


> JPP said:
> 
> 
> > I think you're sort of confusing lines with morphs. Some people frown on line-breeding, which usually refers to breeding related frogs (like siblings) to each other. But if you get nominal leucs from "breeder X", and pair them with some from "breeder Y", hopefully they aren't closely related and therefore you're maintaining some genetic diversity. But they're still the same morph.
> ...


I'm well aware of all of this, but I was speaking in the context of Leucs, since that's the topic the OP was asking about. With the sole exception of Josh's Frogs, I have not seen ANY other breeders/vendors refer to their standard leucs as "xxx line" or "john doe line" or "19xx-whatever imports". I believe they've been in the hobby way too long to really acknowledge anything beyond the morph.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Just something I have been thinking about over the last few days. I get keeping locales separate like when we talk about fine spots coming from a completely different area however it seems with dart frogs it gets taken a little too far more so than with other things. I have been doing a ton of reading because I have nothing better to do. It seems that at times you will have people against line breeding but then they will say keep the bloodlines pure which almost contradicts itself. When you start putting a persons name and import year on a frog aren't you just line breeding even though they may have not had a genetic trait you were breeding for. It almost feels like at times line breeding gets frowned upon when there was a visual difference that people were breeding for. I would have to think even if something isn't visual their could be other factors just breeding the same frogs from the same year over and over.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Understand my next statement is coming from a guy that will keep a line pure but just want to make a point which is an opinion on something I hear brought up all the time. "We want to keep the lines pure because maybe one day we may want to reintroduce them into the wild". Many of these frogs literally have a description when you go to buy them along the lines of this.

Leucamelas XYZ is was a small population found at the base of a mountain near a large quartz rock in 1982. That seems pretty specific to me in an animal that covers a large range.

I think Dart frogs have such variation because they did cross over to some extent. By keeping the lines so pure how do we know we didn't damage the animals to some level? Hell they don't even contain poison if raised in captivity. How do we know we aren't line breeding frogs that won't manage this poison as well? Can survive the effects of eating the toxic insects they are raised on in the wild? If generation after generation of not being exposed to this stuff it will cause an issue.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

aapuzzo said:


> *... "We want to keep the lines pure because maybe one day we may want to reintroduce them into the wild". Many of these frogs literally have a description when you go to buy them along the lines of this.
> *


I believe that from an ecological perspective, all captive frogs within the _hobby_ are "dead" so to speak. I can't think of any program that would actually try to re-introduce these into the wild from hobbyist collections.

There are conservation efforts in their home countries such as Tesoros and CRARC with different models for protecting various species in situ through habitat preservation and population monitoring/management, sometimes with a commercial arm that sells domestically bred frogs to hobbyists to raise money and/or discourage poaching and smuggling, but I don't think anyone realistically thinks the dart frog hobby is any kind of an 'ark' -- untraceable genetics, uncontrolled breeding, no way to trace novel pathogens, etc.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

aapuzzo said:


> When you start putting a persons name and import year on a frog aren't you just line breeding even though they may have not had a genetic trait you were breeding for.


No, it is not the same thing.

'Line breeding' is either:

--breeding siblings back to each other over repeated generations,

or

-- repeatedly, over generations, breeding frogs with a similar phenotypic trait to each other in order to maximize expression of that trait.

Breeding the line e.g. 'leucomelas 1996 import' is not necessarily doing either of those things, because (a) there were more founding stock than 1.1, and (b) you can get other 'leucomelas 1996 import' from other hobbyists that haven't been related for many generations to the ones you have, and (c) you are not trying to increase the expression of any phenotypic trait.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> No, it is not the same thing.
> 
> 'Line breeding' is either:
> 
> ...


That makes sense at this point when many generation have passed and the pool has gotten bigger but you never know with the original stock size was. People talk about inbreeding in a fruit fly culture and there are a ton of flies in there. From an evolutionary standpoint wouldn't a genetic morph possibly be natural line breeding until the pool gets bigger?

How about the blue foot leucs? I think 20 were imported total and split up between hobbyist. Maybe they will get crossed back up after a few generations but there has to be some line breeding there to get it started.


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