# PDF "Tank" Life Expectancy



## MosquitoCoast (Nov 16, 2009)

I tried to find an answer on this but all the matches were relating to Dart Frog's lives.

Let's say you take a tank, a 29 gallon, and you build it up the simple hydroton/screen mesh/ABG mix/New Zealand sphagnum moss/leaf litter way and you add your wood and plants and for the sake of arguement you hand mist it several times a day....

How long will this tank live? Before the soil is useless and there's so much mold and fungus that's taken over and leaves the tank rotten?

I'm curious. I've read that some people break down a tank after a year and others say their tanks last about three to four years.

BTW...You need to get on youtube and look at some of the tanks that people keep their dart frogs in. There is this one tank that looks like the person took some mud, threw it in the tank, and added a piece of ghost wood and a few pieces of Pothos.

I spent more than twice on my tank what I paid for my frogs!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Bah, they aren't even broken in at a year! They are just starting to get good. You should be able to get at least several years. It is somewhat dependant upon viv conditions. The wetter the substrate is, the faster it breaks down. Heavy microfauna loads could break it down faster, too.
If you skip the traditional mixes, like ABG, and instead do a good, homemade clay substrate, you should be able to go 10 years.
If you used Turface, it MAY go a lifetime.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I got 6 years out of one. It was so full of crap and overgrown I couldn`t stand it anymore.
Also, the wood was pretty much mush by then.

John


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

This also depends on the level of ventilation and humidity in the tank. By having a well designed substrate layer that allows drainage, and a good vent that allows air circulation, you can increase the life of the biologics in the tanks. I have a few tanks that are now around 5 years and seem fine enough. I'm actually breaking them down to convert to custom tanks and have found that surprisingly the substrate and wood has remained in overall good shape.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Bah, they aren't even broken in at a year! They are just starting to get good. You should be able to get at least several years. It is somewhat dependant upon viv conditions. The wetter the substrate is, the faster it breaks down. Heavy microfauna loads could break it down faster, too.
> If you skip the traditional mixes, like ABG, and instead do a good, homemade clay substrate, you should be able to go 10 years.
> If you used Turface, it MAY go a lifetime.


Are you inferring that you can use just Turface in place of soil?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Is substrate even necessary? I have one tank that's been going for a couple of years that's nothing but gravel and leaf litter. Of course, a thin layer has formed from all the rotting leaves.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Gamble said:


> Are you inferring that you can use just Turface in place of soil?


Absolutely, Nick. At least 2 of my vivs are set up with just Turface and leaf litter. It can be a little dryer and therefor a bit harder to start a new cutting. I like to use a small handful of ABG, or perhaps a bit of sphagnum, around the roots for a head start. This helps keep it nice and moist until it is established. A very little bit is all you need.



epiphytes etc. said:


> Is substrate even necessary? I have one tank that's been going for a couple of years that's nothing but gravel and leaf litter. Of course, a thin layer has formed from all the rotting leaves.


The definition of substrate, according to Merriam-Webster, is: the base on which an organism lives.
Substrate does not need to be dirt. It can be clay, turface, gravel, humus, decomposing leaf litter or other vegetation. So in the case of your viv, the gravel, leaf litter, and humus created by the decomposing leaf litter, is your substrate. 
In Hydroponics, LECA, lava rock, or rockwool is a substrate. Sprinkle seeds on a sponge or a wet paper towel, and the sponge or paper towel is your substrate.
So the real question might be, "Is a traditional substrate even necessary?". I think many of us, including you with this example, have proven that it is not. There are plenty of imaginative alternatives.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Thx Doug. I may look into that, and just put sphagnum over the turface to help with planting.

Can you buy turface from places like home depot & lowes?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Gamble said:


> Thx Doug. I may look into that, and just put sphagnum over the turface to help with planting.
> 
> Can you buy turface from places like home depot & lowes?


No,I get mine at a John Deere Landscape supply. I use the All Sport Pro. You want a grade about the size of kitty litter.
Personally, instead of putting spagnum over the whole surface, I would wrap a little bit around the stem/roots, and push it down into the Turface. Then cover it all in plenty of leaf litter.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

I wanted to use Pumilio formula for clay substrate, but it's only worthy if i make for a lot of tanks. so, turface is a less effort way for clay substrate ?!


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

my john deer doesn't carry any turface :/


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Epikmuffin said:


> I wanted to use Pumilio formula for clay substrate, but it's only worthy if i make for a lot of tanks. so, turface is a less effort way for clay substrate ?!


You won't get all of the benefits of a homemade clay substrate. Turface is fired, making it rock hard. My clay recipe stays soft which allows more absorption of the calcium in it, and also allows your frogs to ingest little bits of it while hunting bugs. I really couldn't tell you if Turface has any calcium in it, but if it does, it will be mostly locked up and not as readily available.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I know of at least one clay enclosure that is well over ten years now (might be approaching 15 years). 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> I know of at least one clay enclosure that is well over ten years now (might be approaching 15 years).
> 
> Ed


Would that be Brent Brock's with his "Dirty Old Man Substrate"?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Would that be Brent Brock's with his "Dirty Old Man Substrate"?


Yes, yes it is... 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

For everybody else, Brent Brock, along with Ed and Matt Mirabello were the real pioneers for clay substrates. My recipe is based heavily on their research.


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## ghostpilot (Dec 29, 2011)

What's the difference in Turface MVP and the oildry stuff?


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

Epikmuffin said:


> my john deer doesn't carry any turface :/


Check turface.com for local distributors; around the Dallas area, I get mine from Ewing Landscape; not sure if they're in Houston, but I'm sure someone will be.


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Absolutely, Nick. At least 2 of my vivs are set up with just Turface and leaf litter. It can be a little dryer and therefor a bit harder to start a new cutting. I like to use a small handful of ABG, or perhaps a bit of sphagnum, around the roots for a head start. This helps keep it nice and moist until it is established. A very little bit is all you need.


I've just been mixing in a little ABG with mine. It can definitely be hard to wet, particularly if you ever let it get completely dry -- I like to rinse it real well to get the dust off it and pre-wet it, and then water it in with some mycorrhizal fungus innoculant and a bit of dilute rooting hormone when I first set up and plant a viv. As long as I keep it misted, I've had cuttings take off like gangbusters from that point (except begonias, which I can't get to take from a cutting for the life of me; I think I have a begonia curse


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Absolutely, Nick. At least 2 of my vivs are set up with just Turface and leaf litter. It can be a little dryer and therefor a bit harder to start a new cutting. I like to use a small handful of ABG, or perhaps a bit of sphagnum, around the roots for a head start. This helps keep it nice and moist until it is established. A very little bit is all you need.


Funny that Chuck just quoted this one too... But I figured I'd toss my two cents in here as well.

I've been using turface on the last couple tanks I've build and my best luck for putting cuttings in is to use those little peat/cocofiber seed starter plugs. Soak it in water, let it expand, pop the stem of the cutting in the little hole in the middle and voila. Just put the plug wherever you want and fill around it with turface. Its just like planting a tree in your yard! just umm... mini sized.

The net of the seed starter at least holds the medium in place for a while. I started doing this because I'm very indecisive and the first couple weeks of planting my vivs always involves some moving things around. So this way I'm keeping things contained till I'm satisfied and they naturally bust out of the net when they're taking root in their final location.

My other tip for starting a tank with Turface... is add sliced up mushrooms under the leaf litter... CONSTANTLY... gotta boost the food to the microfauna quite a bit since there isnt any decomposition in the substrate.

I'm expecting to get quite a bit of time out of my latest vivs. They are silicone and tree fern/coco fiber backgrounds with turface substrate and lots of cork tubes. All the organics have a chance to dry out after every misting so they should last me a while.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Epikmuffin said:


> I wanted to use Pumilio formula for clay substrate, but it's only worthy if i make for a lot of tanks. so, turface is a less effort way for clay substrate ?!


Turface isnt used in a clay substrate formula at all, so no.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

To ask a little further, what version of Turface is suggested? Another member asked about the difference between the MVP and another, but when checking a website of a dealer near me, it offered a lot more options.

Turface Moundmaster Red Blocks (304) (200008R)

Turface MVP, 50 Lb (200005)

Turface Pro League RED 50 Lb (200010)

Turface Quick Dry 50 Lb (200006)

Turface Pro League Regular 50 Lb (200007)

Here's the website I found for a business somewhat close to me. Harrell's – Growing A Better World » Products

Thanks, Chris


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

kitcolebay said:


> To ask a little further, what version of Turface is suggested? Another member asked about the difference between the MVP and another, but when checking a website of a dealer near me, it offered a lot more options.


I started out using MVP, but I finally talked my dealer into getting me some Pro League Red, and I've been using that since; both seem to work fine for me. I think the main difference between any of them is the color and the particle size...


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Pro league. should look like little chips of red dirt.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

There are several I have seen people use. I use the All Sport Pro because I can get it 20 minutes away from my house. I think what is important is that you don't go too fine. If it is too fine it can hold too much moisture and not drain the way we like it to. Personally, I'm looking for a grade with particles about the size of kitty litter. If I could find it a little bigger, say 1/4" pieces, I would go with that as it would allow more voids for microfauna.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I use the MVP and I'd say it's roughly the same size as the brightly colored aquarium gravel you find at pet stores. Maybe a bit smaller.

I've actually been experimenting in using it for springtail cultures instead of charcoal and I've had pretty good success so far. It's only been a few months though


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## frogandtoad (Apr 24, 2009)

For my substrates I have been using a product from Earl May Garden Center called Structure Soil Conditioner. I just cover this with a thick layer of leaf litter.

I think it is pretty much the same thing as Turface. It is a small granule size that has a nice clay orange color, and it has been fired. It is super cheap, $7.00 for a 10lb. bag, and $16.99 for a 35lb. bag. I know Earl May is not a national chain, but you can order it online if you need to. 

So far it has worked out great for me. Just make sure to cover it well with leaf litter or sphagnum, because it will stick to your frogs.

Has anyone else tried this stuff before?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogandtoad said:


> For my substrates I have been using a product from Earl May Garden Center called Structure Soil Conditioner. I just cover this with a thick layer of leaf litter.
> 
> I think it is pretty much the same thing as Turface. It is a small granule size that has a nice clay orange color, and it has been fired. It is super cheap, $7.00 for a 10lb. bag, and $16.99 for a 35lb. bag. I know Earl May is not a national chain, but you can order it online if you need to.
> 
> ...


Earl May claims that it is made of a natural mineral called Arcolite. https://www.earlmay.com/products/index.cfm?structure_soil_conditioner&show=product&productID=22064 
I am trying to do a google search for Arcolite, or Mineral Arcolite, but it does not appear to exist?? I cannot find any information on google or on google scholar for a mineral named Arcolite except for the Earl May site.


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## frogandtoad (Apr 24, 2009)

Tomorrow I will go buy some more of the stuff and see if there is any more info about it on the bag.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> I am trying to do a google search for Arcolite, or Mineral Arcolite, but it does not appear to exist?? I cannot find any information on google or on google scholar for a mineral named Arcolite except for the Earl May site.


Doug,

Search aggregate and arcolite at the same time and you will come up with several things discussing it to some extent. It appears to be similar to haydite which is either a clay, shale or slake kiln expanded material. The terms haydite and arcolite appear to be made up and not accepted as official as far as I can tell (see http://www.haydite.com/ for a brief discussion on haydite which gives us the clues.). 

Some comments

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Doug,
> 
> Search aggregate and arcolite at the same time and you will come up with several things discussing it to some extent. It appears to be similar to haydite which is either a clay, shale or slake kiln expanded material. The terms haydite and arcolite appear to be made up and not accepted as official as far as I can tell (see http://www.haydite.com/ for a brief discussion on haydite which gives us the clues.).
> 
> ...


Thanks Ed, that did help to find quite a few mentions of arcolite. It does look like it is non-toxic, lightweight, and doesn't break down over time. It looks like would function similarly to turface. Turface, however, is less expensive anyway, unless you have a cheaper source than Earl May. I suppose if the Earl May product is available to you locally, and turface is not, then the cost of shipping may make arcolite cheaper for you.


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## frogandtoad (Apr 24, 2009)

I went and bought another 35lb bag of Structure. It says on the bag, 
100% ARCILLITE. 
I think the product description on their site was a typo. 
It's the same stuff as Shultz Aquatic plant soil.


Montmorillonite can be (calcined) to produce arcillite, a porous, calcined clay sold as a soil conditioner for playing fields and other soil products such as for use as bonsai soil as an alternative to akadama.

I hope that clears it up!


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