# Dusting brand



## PingKing (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi guys would rep-cal be a good brand for vitamins, calcium and minerals for the frogs? I really do not want to feed the frogs the wrong stuff.

Cheers

Xavier


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

I think that most people use rep-cal. What you don't want to get is reptocal. Reptocal has phosphorous witch can kill darts. Rep-cal doesn't.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

just remember the pink repcal can and the blue herptivite labels. mix 1:1 ratio. kristy


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

kristy55303 said:


> just remember the pink repcal can and the blue herptivite labels. mix 1:1 ratio. kristy


 I would recommend against mixing your supplements. They can interact with each other, diminishing/negating the desired effects. I alternate between the two, then naturose once a week.
Remember to replace the supplements a maximum 6 months after opening; it's also a good idea to keep them refrigerated.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

zack : i was always told by breeders to mix 1:1 ratio...and of course changing every six months, but this has sparked me to possibly change....so can you elaborate a little more for me and what effects does the nutrarose truly have as i do have some but have only used it on ceratin tads for color.....never have had a problem with anything like sls etc so far, but always interested in learning new things. thanks for [posting kristy


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Hi Kristy,

In the past, this topic has been brought up and discussed on frognet, and on here somewhere (buried, could not find it in a search). I forget the details, but basically some of the ingredients can interact, changing their structure and/or the way they are utilized by the frog. Ed K, as well as a few other well-respected froggers, recommended against mixing supplements, or at least against storing them mixed. 
Naturose is great at bringing out the oranges/reds in frogs. I have also read it is a great anti-oxidant. I bought a sizable bag of the stuff off of a fish site a couple years ago, so until I run out, I'll continue to supplement with it. It keeps orange lamasi orange


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ok cool. your reasoning sounds very reliable and like a good idea. guess i'll be changing the ways i do things now thanks for the great info. kristy


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I'll try and look up the details. I was taking organic chem at the time, and found the possible interactions pretty interesting. Frognet is a great source of information. Don't think I've ever posted there, but lurking has been fun.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

zBrinks said:


> I'll try and look up the details. I was taking organic chem at the time, and found the possible interactions pretty interesting. Frognet is a great source of information. Don't think I've ever posted there, but lurking has been fun.


yes i lurk but dont post either. thanks for helping its always better to learn as much as you can, than to think you have it all straight when something better might be out there to benefit the darts. i hope that just made sense. lol its late and i can never sleep. yet the hubby can. i'm jealous. insomnia from unknown reasons really sux. i have been told its restless leg syndrome, fibromyalgia....uggh! just give me a diagnosis cuz my legs hurt so bad at night its gotten me in tears! atleast i can get valuable information off this board from knowledgable members like yourself to help me better my darts as well as give me something else to think about besides pain. thanks for helping. it also helps this thread if what i am doijng isnt as good. better to have the most accurate info afterall. kristy


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

The way I see it, not mixing can't do any harm, right? I really doubt that mixing the two supplements together a couple minutes before feeding is going to have substantial (if any) negative effects, but better safe then sorry. 
Whenever I can't sleep, I go check out the Uroplatus geckos. Always good to have at least a couple nocturnal animals around.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

zBrinks said:


> The way I see it, not mixing can't do any harm, right? I really doubt that mixing the two supplements together a couple minutes before feeding is going to have substantial (if any) negative effects, but better safe then sorry.
> Whenever I can't sleep, I go check out the Uroplatus geckos. Always good to have at least a couple nocturnal animals around.


sounds good. yeah i have sugar gliders i spend time with. and my bird, well a zoo...j/k lol kristy


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I hear ya about the zoo. Besides the darts, I have:

3.2 Uroplatus lineatus
3.3 Uroplatus phantasticus
1.1 Uroplatus silkorae
0.1 Uroplatus pietschmanni
1.1 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
1.1 Rhacodactylus auriculatus
3.0 Theloderma corticale
1.3.35 Pogona vitticeps
0.1 Tiliqua scincoides scincoides
1.1 Elaphe helena

Man, I hope I didn't forget anybody


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

lol besides darts i have 13 firebelly toads(sons) blue and gold macaw.....2 proven love birds. 2 akc min pins, 1 cat 1 westhighland terrier female. and 4 sugar gliders kristy


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

zBrinks said:


> I'll try and look up the details. I was taking organic chem at the time, and found the possible interactions pretty interesting. Frognet is a great source of information. Don't think I've ever posted there, but lurking has been fun.


I read somewhere that Rep-cal wanted to put their multivitamin and their Calcium powder together and sell it as one supplement, but they reacted together and it made the vitamins degrade over time. It doesn't hurt the frogs if you feed right after dusting and don't store them together, but I still don't mix them. I switch every other day.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

zBrinks said:


> I really doubt that mixing the two supplements together a couple minutes before feeding is going to have substantial (if any) negative effects


My guess would be it has less to do with the mixing, than the ingesting the two together. I take a lot of vitamins and have done a lot of research on the subject (as it relates to humans of course). I spread my vitamins out of the course of the day, because some prevent others from being utilized as well.

Such as, if you take iron, you should take Vit C at the same time as it adds in the absorption. However, you should never take your iron with calcium, as they block the absorption. Also, I take a high dose of calcium, but I spread it out over several hours, because your body can only take in so much at a time.

I bring my vitamins with me to work in my lunch. The first thing I do is dump them out next to my keyboard, by the time I go home at the end of the day they are gone. I'm terrible with remembering to take them on the weekends. If I could just take everything at once in the morning, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. 

All that being said, I too dust with vitamins at one feeding and calcium the next. So I alternate each day.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> I think that most people use rep-cal. What you don't want to get is reptocal. Reptocal has phosphorous witch can kill darts. Rep-cal doesn't.


Uh oh,I have been using reptocal for a while.I asked if it was OK and someone said I could use it.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/30398-reptocal.html


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

"just remember the pink repcal can and the blue herptivite labels. mix 1:1 ratio."
Kristy is right. And I do the same. Darren Meyer does the same, and several other breeders I know do the same. For feeding time, I mix 1 part of Rep-Cal (pink label) with 1 part of Reptovite (Blue label) into a cup. I then add my flies and shake to dust them. No problems noted. Perhaps Ed Kawalski can explain the pros and cons. In my own experience my frogs have never been healthier or more productive. I can understand people's reservations for one way or another (and that doesnt make my way more right or more wrong) but in my own experience, it has been the best way I have found to keep my animals in good shape.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I figured the recommendation not to mix supplements was intended for storage, but as Kristy's original suggestion to mix did not specify, I wanted to clarify that it's not recommended to mix them together and store them that way.


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

moothefrog said:


> Uh oh,I have been using reptocal for a while.I asked if it was OK and someone said I could use it.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/30398-reptocal.html



this is where I read that reptocal can kill darts within a few weeks of use

Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

What about that Repashy frog supplement? It's all in one. Is it safe?


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

bobberly1 said:


> What about that Repashy frog supplement? It's all in one. Is it safe?


As long as it doesn't have phosphorous in it. Phosphorous binds with calcium and the calcium can't be absorbed into the bloodstream, making the calcium useless. The frog will soon have a calcium deficiency and may die.


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## jeffreyvmd (Oct 16, 2004)

2 questions

Zach, do you place your Naturose in the fridge. The reason I ask is because I have had smaller containers that say to refridgerate and a bigger back that says to store between 42-72. I know that is a large range but I was wondering what you do and what your bag says.

Second, Ed's Fly Meat, how often do you feed and do you dust each time. Do you use Naturose and if you do, do you mix that with the supplements or give it separately. 

I do not mix them together all the time. I will mix both calcium and multi togther and then give calcium alone at the next feeding. I use Naturose in my anthonyi and give it separately.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

I feed 3 times a week and dust everyother time. I use a little Nekkon B and E sometimes, and folic acid on occasion. But no Naturose.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I keep my Naturose in the fridge. 

Dave, 

Are you using the Nekkon bird supplements (had someone mention this to me the other day)? Which supplements exactly? I've been considering utilizing those for awhile now, but am unsure about frequency and which products to use.

Thanks in advance,

- Zach


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## jeffreyvmd (Oct 16, 2004)

EDs Fly Meat said:


> I feed 3 times a week and dust everyother time. I use a little Nekkon B and E sometimes, and folic acid on occasion. But no Naturose.


Thank you for the quick response. When did you start with the Nekkon B and E. Do you think that you saw a difference in health, breeding etc? I only use the Naturose with the anthonyi SI for color enhancement but I never use it with any other frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AlexRible said:


> As long as it doesn't have phosphorous in it. Phosphorous binds with calcium and the calcium can't be absorbed into the bloodstream, making the calcium useless. The frog will soon have a calcium deficiency and may die.


Wow miss a few months and everything changes... I'll try to follow this thread a little more but things are still pretty hectic and if there are more questions shoot me an e-mail at [email protected]st.net 

Actually containing phosphorus is not a bad thing as long as the ratio of phosphorus to calcium is between 1:1 and 2:1 with an ideal being close to 1.5:1 (in the dusted insect). You can actually cause major health issues with animals by providing too little phosphorus in the diet. So I have to say the idea that if the supplement contains any phosphorus being bad is incorrect. It depends on the amount contained in the supplement. 

Onto the mixing idea.. this is complex. It is correct that if they are mixed and not used immediately the fat soluble vitamins begin to break down more quickly as thier oxidation is catalyzed. 
Now where it gets complex.. 
1) The vast majority of supplements are formulated for use with crickets, this means that when using it with fruit flies, it is possible to oversupplement with the supplements (see Nutrition chapter in Reptile Medicine and Surgery second edition edited by Mader) potentially causing other issues such as toxic reactions, and or conditional deficiencies. 
2)In addition, the particle sizes of the supplements are of different sizes, so when dusting, you have competition from the supplement for sticking to the insect. This can cause conditional deficiencies or potentially toxic excesses as not all of the ingredients stick well to the insects. 

This is the thread that was referenced earlier http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-do-you-dust-your-frogs-food-supplements.html 

Ed


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

^^^ It was my understanding that FF and other feeder insects contained all the needed phosphorus for healthy dart frog diet.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In general, commercially available invertebrates (with the exception of earthworms kept in calcium rich soil) are known to have poor ratios of calcium to phosphorus which is a very different statement than that the invertebrates supply all of the needed phosphorus which is also a very different statement than saying using a supplement that contains phosphorus will kill your frogs as it will prevent the frogs from absorbing the calcium. It is possible to supply all of the phosphorus provided that your supplement which is dusted on the insect does not cause the total calcium to phosphorus ratio of the insect plus the supplement to exceed 2:1. 
So
1) phosphorus in the supplement will not kill your frog unless it really lowers the total ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the feeder insect plus the supplement to below 1:1... This is why there is a recommended range for the ratio of calcium to phosphorus and the ideal is close to 1.5 to 1 as it provided "wiggle room" for variations in phosphorus in the feeder invertebrate as different feeders can have very different calcium to phosphorus ratios. 

2) Some calcium supplements used for people are tribasic calcium phosphate and it supplies calcium at about the same rate as calcium carbonate (at least in humans). 

3) phosphorus is needed for healthy bones just as calcium is needed for healthy bones. There needs to be a balancing between the two in the diet. 

An old outdated discussion can be found here MBD.. (Yeah I know its outdated but I haven't had time to bring it fully up to date but there should be some more updated stuff coming out in future issues of Leaf Litter). 

Ed


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Thanks for jumping in Ed; I greatly appreciate your insight.


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