# springtail crash



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, I was recently caught dead in the water with baby froglets and no springtails. No lost froglets, just not enough food to really keep me happy that they are stuffed little babies. Heres the story. My springtail cultures have been done with a mixture of ground peat, leaf litter and cocoa coir (like bed a beast, 1/3 of each). The cultures take off, do great for a few months, then inexplicaably crash and die. What gets me, they are not crashing at a point where the population is the highest or anything like that. I've recently switched to feeding activer bakers, but in the past fed brewers yeast. This isnt an issue with mites. Any culture that develops mites goes in the trash. Is there a buildup of organics in the soil causing this. Too much springtail poop? I dunno?????? Why do they do good for months, then die?


----------



## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Sometimes I open mine and it looks like they are all dead. I put the lid back on and when I come back in an hour they are all alive and happy again.


----------



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

What containers do you use? Are the lids vented?


----------



## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Happens to me that the springtails cultures after a year - a year and a half crash, as if the culture medium becomes sterile... The medium is peat moss and coco humus mixed. I food springtails with fish food, sometimes slices of banana or carrot. Plastic boxes are sealed.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I breed mine on coco husk in 32oz Ff cups with a solid lid. I use the fill and pour method for harvesting them and haven't lost any cultures in close to 2 years. I have just over 200 going, so I'd say it's pretty much proven itself. lol


----------



## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

usually to much food or not enough ventilation, or a combination of the two. Also sometimes cultures just get to overpopulated and suffocate themselves out. Try and split cultures when this happens. It's best not to have all of your eggs in one basket.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Define your crashes, Chris. One day alive, the next day every springtail is dead? Or do they gradually dwindle, producing less and less, until they fizzle out?


----------



## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

Just speculation but could it be oxygen depletion? Or perhaps the ph in the substrate is changing? Something to consider.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Its a fizzle out, but fairly quickly, over a week or so. These are in sealable tupperware that are vented, but I still open them near daily. Here whats weird and makes me believe it is somethign with the soil. I can never get a culture to produce in there again. I can get scattered springs to take hold and "live", but no boom, no increase in population, just a couple hundred at most. But its not like thes cultures are a year odl or anything, they are at most 2-4 months old at this point.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Bakers yeast is active, and produces a good amount of CO2 gas. CO2 is heavier than air, so it settles on the bottom. The springs withing the substrate will be fine, anything that ventures on top to feed may be getting killed. Try opening the cultures, minimally 2x a week, and fan the culture with the lid. Just enough to circulate the air a bit. I too had that problem with bakers yeast, so I switched to brewers yeast. I still fan out the containers once a week.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Most coco coir is washed with salt water. All of it is treated before coming into our Countries. I wonder if that is the issue...

I boil my husk in tap water, soak it in RO and drain it, before using it.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Some springtails will secret a substance, possibly a hormone, that inhibits growth. White Temperates are known to do this. I'm not sure about others. This is the reason it is often suggested to split them at least once a year. Fizzling after only a few months is kind of fast, but if you are running them at capacity (high density), I can see this happening quicker.
I also once told you that I've never seen a mold kill springtails. I have since seen this happen. The mold was spreading very quickly, over a couple days. Every single springtail on the moldy side was dead. The culture was completely wiped out after 2, perhaps 3 days at the most.
A couple of possibilities.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Yepp, that happend recently too. A fuzzy, cloud looking mold/fungus that overtook the entire culture, wiped out 97-98 % of the bugs over a few days. I've also seen this weird "spore" looking stuff show up in my tanks and cultures, looks like little white BB's. Doesnt seem to bother them though.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

pdfCrazy said:


> Yepp, that happend recently too. A fuzzy, cloud looking mold/fungus that overtook the entire culture, wiped out 97-98 % of the bugs over a few days. I've also seen this weird "spore" looking stuff show up in my tanks and cultures, looks like little white BB's. Doesnt seem to bother them though.


Seen that one. Almost looks like eggs. Harmless, but very persistent. Nobody seems to eat it and it takes months to run it's course.


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Seen that one. Almost looks like eggs. Harmless, but very persistent. Nobody seems to eat it and it takes months to run it's course.


Blah I was hoping you had some magic remedy for that.


----------



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

aspidites73 said:


> Bakers yeast is active, and produces a good amount of CO2 gas. CO2 is heavier than air, so it settles on the bottom. The springs withing the substrate will be fine, anything that ventures on top to feed may be getting killed. Try opening the cultures, minimally 2x a week, and fan the culture with the lid. Just enough to circulate the air a bit. I too had that problem with bakers yeast, so I switched to brewers yeast. I still fan out the containers once a week.


If the CO2 goes to the bottom, shouldn't the springs on top survive?


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

You say every few months? Could i be that this happening has something to do with the seasons changing? Like how spring is starting now?


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Spring? I'm in Colorado...its 25 degrees outside 


But, the C02 could possibly be the reason. could also be substrate going bad


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

JPccusa said:


> If the CO2 goes to the bottom, shouldn't the springs on top survive?


CO2 is heavier than air, but unless it's pressurized or if the substrate is loose (as in charcoal) , it will not simply wick into the ground. As far as the CO2 is concerned, when it meets something more dense than it, it has reached the bottom.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

aspidites73 said:


> CO2 is heavier than air, but unless it's pressurized or if the substrate is loose (as in charcoal) , it will not simply wick into the ground. As far as the CO2 is concerned, when it meets something more dense than it, it has reached the bottom.


Not in my experience. Before I began using .3 micron filters in all my cultures, I had several cultures crash from CO2 buildup. It killed every single springtail or every single isopod in the culture.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, Doug. Wouldn't CO2 buildup represent pressurization? What substrate were you using? Surely, you're not suggesting a .3 micron filter has any effect on CO2. What is the purpose of the HEPA filter, then? 



Pumilo said:


> Not in my experience. Before I began using .3 micron filters in all my cultures, I had several cultures crash from CO2 buildup. It killed every single springtail or every single isopod in the culture.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

aspidites73 said:


> I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, Doug. Wouldn't CO2 buildup represent pressurization? What substrate were you using? Surely, you're not suggesting a .3 micron filter has any effect on CO2. What is the purpose of the HEPA filter, then?


I am absolutely suggesting that a .3 micron filter has an effect on CO2 buildup. It allows ventilation. It allows CO2 to escape, and it allows oxygen to enter. Actually, I am shocked and baffled that you think it would not. If something is tightly sealed, with no air exchange, and it breathes, it will quickly suffocate and die. If you give it ventilation, it can get oxygen and it will live. This is fact. This is common sense. Why do think parents tell children not to put a plastic bag over their head? It is because it seals in the CO2 and does not allow oxygen in. The child will die. Remover the bag, or tear a hole in it, and CO2 can escape, and oxygen can enter. The child will live.
I'm sorry, but I am truly baffled that the theory of ventilation doesn't make sense to you. 

You have a tightly culture with no air exchange. If it is not a culture that is really hopping, and being run "at capacity", you MAY not have a problem, because you open it occasionally to feed it. This gives it air exchange. It allows the CO2 to escape, and oxygen to come in. If you gradually increase feeding, and the population builds, sooner or later it will suffocate. In my experience, and in the experience of many other board members, the suffocation can be complete, killing every single bug in the culture. I have see this happen in ABG cultures, in cocofiber cultures, in charcoal cultures. I have had pictures of dead cultures sent to me that were suffocated overnight in leaf litter cultures. 
The bugs breathe, and they need some form of air exchange. When you feed your culture, the microbial action can increase exponentially, and the CO2 builds up even more. This is why suffocation incidents are often seen the day after a heavy feeding.
CO2 buildup has nothing to do with pressurization. CO2 sinks. It sinks to the bottom of a culture and eventually, it will seep down into the substrate, killing every bug. If the substrate can breathe, the CO2 will seep down into it, UNLESS you allow some sort of air exchange. Perhaps, if your substrate is mud, it would block the CO2 from seeping down in, at least temporarily, but if it is mud and cannot breathe, there will be no live microfauna down in it anyway.
I'm sorry if this seems like a smart a** answer, but CO2 buildup, and suffocation resulting in death, is real. It's been proven over and over again. Bugs have been suffocated and died, animals have been suffocated and died, and people have been suffocated and died, and pressurization has nothing to do with it.
I truly don't see how a HEPA filter has anything to do with what we are discussing.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

so, since its been brought up now, let me give you some background on the 0.3 micron filters, since I was the one who pioneered that technique.

THEY ARE FOR GAS TRANSFER WHILE PREVENTING CONTAMINATION!!! 
Initially I used them while I was employeed doing rhizomorphic fungi cultures, and these filter disks go on our grain spawn jars to allow transpiration, but prevent contamination from bacteria, endospores, and the spores of other molds/fungi. THERE IS NO PRESSURIZATION BEHIND THE FILTER, that is ridiculous. you will achieve much more satisfactory results on your cultures with the addition of this filter material, and since the pore size is so small, you lose very little moisture , so your cultures do not dry out.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Easy there, Doug. I never suggested that a HEPA filter would prevent ventilation. I simply stated that a HEPA filter, in and of itself, does nothing to CO2. It allows for ventilation, obviously. My question came because you merely stated " Before I began using .3 micron filters in all my cultures....". It left to assumption how you were using the filter. As substrate, on top of substrate, or as a lid to allow ventilation. I now know the latter of the 3 is the correct one. Either way you present it, and I don't care if you take the lid completely off, air DOES NOT displace CO2. You would need active ventilation for that i.e. something to move the air, which may come in the form of my mentioned fanning of the culture with the lid. Do I debate that "eventually" the CO2 would seep down into the substrate, of course not. "eventually" they will die of starvation. Hopefully before that, "eventually" you will open the lid and give them some food.

I don't doubt your experience. I just wanted you to clarify your point.

Lastly, you said you used a .3 micron filter. That, by definition, is a HEPA filter. High-Efficiency Particulate Air filter.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I run my cultures "to capacity". Populations are high, and feeding is heavy. Frogparty's .3 micron filters are an invaluable tool in my culturing program and have saved many a bug. I believe I would have to have 5 or 10 times the space, to spread out many more, less populated cultures, if he had not shared that tip with us. Thanks Frogparty!


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

You achieve a gas equilibrium. Displacement has nothing to do with it. gas goes in, gas goes out are CO2 levels a bit higher in the tub? Sure. But as the O2 is consumed within, the equilibrium shifts and more O2 passes in through the filter. You will NEVER suffocate a culture with a micron filter patch on the top.


----------



## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

Where are you buying your filters and what size opening are you covering? I have been using squares cut from a dust mask for this purpose and then glue gunning them to the plastic tub I have the Springtails in.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Of course displacement has a place here. O2 is not consumed, as in disappears. It is converted to CO2 by an aerobic organism. Again, air does not displace CO2. Passive ventilation (HEPA filtration) does nothing to circulate air. Air must be actively cycled. As long as you have organisms breathing, you will constantly be creating more CO2 and displacing more O2.

All I wanted was a simple clarification from Doug as to what he was disagreeing with (it was not clear, originally). As it turns out, neither one of us was in conflict. It was simple a case of semantics that would have been cleared up with a simple, I use HEPA as a form of ventilation. Instead we got a diatribe on who's experience is more real. I never debated his experience nor did I say he was wrong, until a few posts later when he was.




frogparty said:


> You achieve a gas equilibrium. Displacement has nothing to do with it. gas goes in, gas goes out are CO2 levels a bit higher in the tub? Sure. But as the O2 is consumed within, the equilibrium shifts and more O2 passes in through the filter. You will NEVER suffocate a culture with a micron filter patch on the top.


----------



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

I no longer see it available at the place that I originally got mine from, but a Google search for "0.3 micron filter disks" yielded several suppliers. Here is one: Synthetic Filter Discs

Edit: Never mind... the website apparently got remapped. http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/70-mm-synthetic-filter-discs-set-of-10.html


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Fungi Perfecti - Fungi.com


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

There is no need for active ventilation. Passive transfer is plenty. These filters are not one way filters, and the laws of equilibrium still apply


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

if you want to get super fancy, put the filters on the sides of your containers, just above substrate level for optimal gas transfer


If you are feeding 2x a week, even 1x, the amount of active ventilation from opening and closing the container should be sufficient, and the filters do the rest the rest of the time

These filters are designed for the bulk culture of aerobic organisms in sterile environments, trust me, they work. Several kg of mycelium burns through a lot more O2/generates more CO2 than a measly springtail culture.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I agree with everything you are saying, except the equilibrium part. It suffices to say, it works, without invoking an argument of how it works. We don't live in a vacuum, so it's never passive, anyway. You are correct, gas goes in and gas goes out, but equilibrium simply means of equal pressure (in our example, JP). Without a closed system, it will always be in equilibrium, but O2 will slowly be displaced by CO2. That is a fact, but it is not dichotomous with what you, or I am saying. There are other factors involved here. Again, it suffices to say, it works. 




frogparty said:


> if you want to get super fancy, put the filters on the sides of your containers, just above substrate level for optimal gas transfer
> 
> 
> If you are feeding 2x a week, even 1x, the amount of active ventilation from opening and closing the container should be sufficient, and the filters do the rest the rest of the time
> ...


----------



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

aspidites73 said:


> I agree with everything you are saying, except the equilibrium part. It suffices to say, it works, without invoking an argument of how it works. We don't live in a vacuum, so it's never passive, anyway. You are correct, gas goes in and gas goes out, *but equilibrium simply means of equal pressure*. Without a closed system, it will always be in equilibrium, but O2 will slowly be displaced by CO2. That is a fact, but it is not dichotomous with what you, or I am saying. There are other factors involved here. Again, it suffices to say, it works.


No... equilibrium can be of concentration, temperature, etc. not only pressure. But you are correct - HEPA filtration works.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Not to toot my own horn, but the use of these filter disks is probably the best idea Ive ever given this hobby....lol


I know that I, and a lot of other folks have seen dramatically better results with the addition of these filters, and I hope more people are encouraged to try them out. CHEAP, AUTOCLAVABLE, REUSABLE, CUTTABLE ETC.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

JPccusa said:


> No... equilibrium can be of concentration, temperature, etc. not only pressure. But you are correct - HEPA filtration works.


please don't forget volume, mass, and all the other ones that have nothing to do with the price of eggs in China. 0_o


----------



## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

frogfreak said:


> I breed mine on coco husk in 32oz Ff cups with a solid lid. I use the fill and pour method for harvesting them and haven't lost any cultures in close to 2 years. I have just over 200 going, so I'd say it's pretty much proven itself. lol


I use the same method, and it works great.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

aspidites73 said:


> Air must be actively cycled.


Active ventilation is absolutely NOT necessary. A couple of .3 micron filters on the lid will absolutely allow enough ventilation that a culture will not build up CO2 and suffocate. Experience, and hands on examples show this to be true. This has also been backed up by frogparty's experience with using .3 micron filters. I have talked to many people who have suffocated cultures. I have not seen one report of a suffocated culture after adding .3 micron filters, or another PASSIVE vent, to their cultures. It is NOT required to have active circulation to provide proper ventilation.

I still fail to understand your comment about pressurization. 


aspidites73 said:


> Wouldn't CO2 buildup represent pressurization?


CO2 buildup has nothing to do with pressurization. Sure, you can pressurize CO2, but it has nothing to do with pressurization in the circumstances we are discussing.



aspidites73 said:


> I never debated his experience nor did I say he was wrong, until a few posts later when he was.


I have been wrong before. Many times. My hands on experience with these filters is not wrong. If you are going to call me out as wrong, please be specific. As it sits now, I'm fairly sure I am right. Experience and hands on examples back this up. To me, it still looks like you are wrong about pressurization and also in claiming that .3 micron filters, by themselves, cannot supply proper ventilation.


aspidites73 said:


> Air must be actively cycled.


 Additionally, you did make the comment that CO2 will not penetrate the top layers of your substrate.


aspidites73 said:


> CO2 is heavier than air, but unless it's pressurized or if the substrate is loose (as in charcoal) , it will not simply wick into the ground.


This has also been shown to be wrong in many people's hands on experiences. You then later contradicted this by claiming the exact opposite.


aspidites73 said:


> Do I debate that "eventually" the CO2 would seep down into the substrate, of course not.


I am unsure why you are arguing that .3 micron filters cannot be efficient or useful, unless the air is actively cycled. This has been shown to be quite effective. I have to doubt that you have ever tried them. It is obvious, from your questioning if I was using them as a substrate (???), that you have not read any of the many, many posts about their proper use.

Once again, I've been wrong before, but if you are going to say that I'm wrong, please be specific.


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

WOW, nice copy/paste argument you have going there. I think you missed the several times where I stated that i'm not arguing your experience, and I NEVER said HEPA filtration does not work. You have way too much time on your hands, however. Try the link in my sig 

Also, please ready my post #33


----------



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

As Doug quoted, you were the one who said air had to be actively exchanged and that it would not penetrate the soil... then you back-paddled and joined us on the right side (HEPA alone does work). Welcome! 

Now it's time to move on...


----------



## samsffr (May 10, 2011)

I just would like to thank Doug, I took his advice on my springtails and my production has quadrupled if not more. Keep on top of them every few days and make sure all is in order. It is amazing how much more I can harvest now!


----------

