# The "lines" question !!!!!!!



## acam (May 3, 2011)

Here's the question,
When breeding darts who gets the credit when you successfully breed your frogs? Is it you, the shop you bought them from or the importer? How about if they are wild caught? I know if you were breeding two frogs from the same line the would obviously be from the same line but how about the imports or if you got two different lines together and created offspring? Are the offspring "your own" line. I've been breeding reptiles my whole life, and what I recently heard about "lines" for the darts, I kind of found funny!!!!
Lets here those opinions guys, thanks.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

The "line" is who originally imported them. Nabors line is from Patric Nabors who brought that group of animals into the country. Not necessarily who bred them.


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## deboardfam (Feb 7, 2011)

Yeah line is who imported them.. 

butt, understory, nabors, those are some big names


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

acam said:


> Here's the question,
> When breeding darts who gets the credit when you successfully breed your frogs? Is it you, the shop you bought them from or the importer? How about if they are wild caught? I know if you were breeding two frogs from the same line the would obviously be from the same line but how about the imports or if you got two different lines together and created offspring? Are the offspring "your own" line. I've been breeding reptiles my whole life, and what I recently heard about "lines" for the darts, I kind of found funny!!!!
> Lets here those opinions guys, thanks.


This is one of the reason's its important to track lineage. Folks tend to use line information to do so in place of numerical designations which personally seem to make much more sense. 

In most cases, 'Nabors line' would indicate that the frogs in question are offspring from adults owned/imported, etc., by Pat Nabors. Same goes with Sean Stewart, Understory enterprises, SNDF, or any of the other importers, more common breeders, etc. Offspring produced by these 'lines' can be designated as such. 

However, if you were to import frogs or receive WC, adding a line designate (such as Tuss line) helps identify a specific import or WC line of frogs.

So yes, if you obtain WC frogs, or imports without data, it is acceptable and helpful to the community to designate them with line data.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

eldalote2 said:


> The "line" is who originally imported them. Nabors line is from Patric Nabors who brought that group of animals into the country. Not necessarily who bred them.


Not necessarily. I've heard of a few cases where a breeder has selected two frogs from different lines, bred them en masse, and ended up with their own lines of frogs....

Personally, I'm not conceited enough to need my own line of frog. When my Rio Branco breed the offspring will simply be F1 Red Rio Branco Fall 2007 imports....


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

If my 2 auratus green and bronze (they're both juvies right now so i don't even know their sex yet) frogs end up breeding what would I call them? Their 2 lines are "MacPoison" and "Sean Stewart"...


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## acam (May 3, 2011)

Well that seems kind of silly. Not taking any recognition from the big name guys but if WC animals are just making a pit stop at there house then they should not be receiving any credit for your success or anyone else's. If you by F1 animals from them then ok. If anything you should receive documentation of the import and what "farm" or "local" they are from. Yeah, there names should be on the history but the person who was successful at breeding the wild caught animals should have there name as the "line". 
Im just wondering because this is the first time I hear anything like this, Green tree pythons you have your locals jayapura, biak, aru once you get into the captives and morphs you start hearing names like Cathy Maynard, Greg Maxwell, Signal Herps. Boas same thing ball pythons. So if you want to get recognition for your work you have to get an import license? 

Im not trying to start anything guys its just the first time I hear anything like this so I was just wondering why. I think that the people that are putting there elbow grease into doing something the love, should get some kind of recognition. "If" they are breeding wild caught animals.


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

As a biologist I would hope it isn't about recognition but rather the frogs' genetics and keeping inbreeding to a minimum.


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## acam (May 3, 2011)

No its not about "recognition" sorry but if anything it they should be known as locals and in your case if you are breeding two different "lines" together then you are creating a line. Your in a "hobby" there is "recognition" due.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

acam said:


> Well that seems kind of silly. Not taking any recognition from the big name guys but if WC animals are just making a pit stop at there house then they should not be receiving any credit for your success or anyone else's.


Yes they should. As I understand it, it's not the easiest thing to import frogs and it's something I know I'll likely never have the drive/energy to even attempt to make it happen. It's not like they just imported them during a weekend when they happened to already be "in the area"... (well, I was in peru and I thought to myself, Why don't I get some frogs while I'm here...)

Not to mention, if you give a single import of frogs from a single local one line designation, then that makes it much easier to find a mate than having to research each "personalized" line's history (okay, so my male is from Greg W's line that he got from breeding together John F's and Mary Q's. John's now out of the hobby, but I'm assuming from what I've read of his vague posts that they were brought in from surinam sometime between 2002 and 2004... Mary Q's is still in the hobby and she thinks they were from the same import. I've got a female from from Gina K's line? which nobody's sure of when they were imported anymore since records weren't kept well enough back then...) just could turn into a much bigger headache than necessary to try to find out which frogs are from the same stock.



acam said:


> No its not about "recognition" sorry but if anything it they should be known as locals and in your case if you are breeding two different "lines" together then you are creating a line. Your in a "hobby" there is "recognition" due.


Recognition for what exactly? The frogs did the work  you just put two of them together in a glass box. Accept that the mentality is different in darts than it is in other hobbies. People are more interested in keeping lines pure than they are in creating new lines. Different focus entirely.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

acam said:


> No its not about "recognition" sorry but if anything it they should be known as locals and in your case if you are breeding two different "lines" together then you are creating a line. Your in a "hobby" there is "recognition" due.


No..because in a few years people would be asking if that line was from it's own import or from another line or import. As a total hypothetical example if you obtained from the same import a F1 male from crackers and a F1 female from pita, you should list offspring as coming from those two lines by the designation of crackers x pita. That allows people to know to know the origins of the frogs and be able to look for frogs that allow for genetic diversity in the line. If you rename them after yourself then the link to the origin is lost and inbreeding becomes the norm as it would indicate that the only frogs offspring can be paired to are siblings. 

If you get wild caught and breed them, then instead you should label them with the morph/population identification and year they were imported. That allows for easy tracking of animals from the same import. The reason there are lines named after certain people is because for a long time there was only a small group of people importing and breeding wild caught or European imported frogs so it made sense at that time. With all of the pumilio that were imported in the last ten years, import year and morph is much much more important than who bred them. 

Ed


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## acam (May 3, 2011)

Alright, thanks guys it was just a question. It wasn't trying to make anyone mad just trying to understand what the word " lines" means here.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

acam said:


> Alright, thanks guys it was just a question. It wasn't trying to make anyone mad just trying to understand what the word " lines" means here.


I don't think you made anyone mad. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

DendroRachel said:


> If my 2 auratus green and bronze (they're both juvies right now so i don't even know their sex yet) frogs end up breeding what would I call them? Their 2 lines are "MacPoison" and "Sean Stewart"...


You should find out where the first one was produced, lines don't get named for flippers.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Froggers are more concerned about actual lineage. Everyone breeds their frogs (Or at least tries), but nobody breeds to create new morphs like they do in the reptile hobby. Such a thing is taboo in the frog hobby so there's really no need to know anything other than who the frog originated through.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

MrFusion said:


> Froggers are more concerned about actual lineage. Everyone breeds their frogs (Or at least tries), but nobody breeds to create new morphs like they do in the reptile hobby. Such a thing is taboo in the frog hobby so there's really no need to know anything other than who the frog originated through.


I used to think the same. Now I think it's only a matter of time...


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> I used to think the same. Now I think it's only a matter of time...


I sure hope you're wrong....


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## acam (May 3, 2011)

your assuming that the guy that imported the species got the frog from under the same rock or leaf. One Leuc DNA may not be the same as another, and crossing one line with another could eventually cause morphs or maybe already has.


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## acam (May 3, 2011)

"Actual Lineage" in order for one to know "Actual Lineage" you have to go catch the frog yourself and make proper documentation of where you found the frog to have "Actual Lineage. Many people buy there frogs from people or shops how do you know the shop or the person doesn't have multiple importers and on terrarium? How do you know that the guy collecting your frog didn't find it in n area totally different from the rest. The "line" ?


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

This is a very interesting topic.. So if i go get two wild caught frogs from same exact area... i can create my own line


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## acam (May 3, 2011)

Thats what they say. It should be know know as local not "the Schwarzenegger Line"........he's imported a lot he knows where your frog came from, for sure!!!!


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

acam said:


> your assuming that the guy that imported the species got the frog from under the same rock or leaf. One Leuc DNA may not be the same as another, and crossing one line with another could eventually cause morphs or maybe already has.


Not necessarily... frog locales vary in size distribution but it's not like there is a separate type just 5 feet away. I could take a "frogfarm" line leuc, a European import leuc, and a Nabors line leuc and breed them all together- assuming they are all "standard" leucs (not banded, small spot, green foot, or any other morph- natural or man made)- and the offspring would still be "standard leucs". You might occasionally get a mutation like chocolate leucs, but you aren't suddenly going to get a whole new morph out of them. 
You should actually try to breed frogs from different lines *as long as they are the same locale* so that you don't keep intentionally breeding closely related frogs together. 
Bryan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

acam said:


> "Actual Lineage" in order for one to know "Actual Lineage" you have to go catch the frog yourself and make proper documentation of where you found the frog to have "Actual Lineage. Many people buy there frogs from people or shops how do you know the shop or the person doesn't have multiple importers and on terrarium? How do you know that the guy collecting your frog didn't find it in n area totally different from the rest. The "line" ?


There are actually fewer importers actually bringing in the frogs than many people think (even if some of the resellers claim to have directly imported them). So it unlikely that a store is going to have frogs that look the same that were originally collected from disparate locations. This is why import year is important... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

NickJR said:


> This is a very interesting topic.. So if i go get two wild caught frogs from same exact area... i can create my own line


You can certainly try but the trend is to now label it by import year and morph as opposed to call after a person. The reason is that the import year and morph supply real information when attempting to pair up the frogs versus someone's name. It is highly probable that your attempt would not be recognized as people would instead use the year and morph and say they got them from you.. In general, there should be little interest in continuing the practice. 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Can someone explain how this relates to tincs in layman's terms? I've always asked for line info and all I get are names. There are never locales or import years mentioned. And...I always thought you should try to keep with the same line (name), not mix them. Ugh...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WendySHall said:


> Can someone explain how this relates to tincs in layman's terms? I've always asked for line info and all I get are names. There are never locales or import years mentioned. And...I always thought you should try to keep with the same line (name), not mix them. Ugh...


Most of the tinctorius group was established in the hobby decades ago which is why you only get names.... The more recent imports should be known by the import year and morph.. 

Ed


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Ah! I see.

And mixing names is the better thing to do then?

And list the froglets as Name X Name ?


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

A line doesn't have anything to do with who imported the frogs. I don't believe Patrick ever imported frogs and certainly not wild caught animals (I don't think). ALL a "line" is are animals who can be traced back to a certain breeder or occasionally to an importation. The animals could have been wc or cb before the got the "originator" of the line. Its just a way of keeping track of where your animals came from. Only rarely can these "lines" be traced back to importations (which commonly have multiple origins for the same species) or localities in the wild. And commonly "lines" are of mixed origin to begin with, especially with some of the forms that have been around for decades. 

Best,

Chuck



eldalote2 said:


> The "line" is who originally imported them. Nabors line is from Patric Nabors who brought that group of animals into the country. Not necessarily who bred them.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

skylsdale said:


> I used to think the same. Now I think it's only a matter of time...


 Eh, I doubt it. It's been this way since the hobby began. I've seen crosses before and nothing spectacular came out of it. In fact, they rarely look as good as existing morphs. There's no demand for crossed frogs anyway. I know I wouldn't buy one. I mean really, with so many natural color morphs already I don't see the point. Especially with so many new frogs being introduced to the hobby.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

MrFusion said:


> Eh, I doubt it. It's been this way since the hobby began. I've seen crosses before and nothing spectacular came out of it. In fact, they rarely look as good as existing morphs. There's no demand for crossed frogs anyway. I know I wouldn't buy one. I mean really, with so many natural color morphs already I don't see the point. Especially with so many new frogs being introduced to the hobby.


Again, I used to believe the same thing...but the hobby is gaining broader attraction, maybe from the wider herp hobby. 

And I'm not talking strictly about crosses...just consider designer morphs of frogs. We have seen it already in "Fine Spot Azureus," etc. Who really freaks out about those? But it's still selective breeding for traits to produce a specific visual phenotype of frogs. 

The hobby started and existed for a while among a pocket of hobbyists. The people participating now didn't necessarily participate in the imports, didn't write the letters to one another (before e-mail), investing in the purchase of numerous frogs just to get a single pair, working on breeding them, etc. Now you can go to your local Petco, buy the gear, pick up a breeding pair at a show and you're good to go. There's no investment...no reason to have a sort of fidelity with work that went into those frogs or the history of them in captive collections. The hobby will continue to grow, most likely become less in touch with its roots...and at some point we'll probably see piebold azureus sitting on someone's table at White Plains. Even the reefkeeping hobby is dealing with the issue of designer CB clownfish strains. It's really just a matter of time.


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## Adven2er (Aug 17, 2008)

This thread may help answer some questions.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/56132-line-information-frogs.html


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

skylsdale said:


> Again, I used to believe the same thing...but the hobby is gaining broader attraction, maybe from the wider herp hobby.
> 
> And I'm not talking strictly about crosses...just consider designer morphs of frogs. We have seen it already in "Fine Spot Azureus," etc. Who really freaks out about those? But it's still selective breeding for traits to produce a specific visual phenotype of frogs.
> 
> The hobby started and existed for a while among a pocket of hobbyists. The people participating now didn't necessarily participate in the imports, didn't write the letters to one another (before e-mail), investing in the purchase of numerous frogs just to get a single pair, working on breeding them, etc. Now you can go to your local Petco, buy the gear, pick up a breeding pair at a show and you're good to go. There's no investment...no reason to have a sort of fidelity with work that went into those frogs or the history of them in captive collections. The hobby will continue to grow, most likely become less in touch with its roots...and at some point we'll probably see piebold azureus sitting on someone's table at White Plains. Even the reefkeeping hobby is dealing with the issue of designer CB clownfish strains. It's really just a matter of time.


 Oh I agree that someone will give it a shot eventually. The future is infinite and therefore filled with infinite possibilities. I used to work in the exotic fish trade for some of the biggest farms in the US and can remember when those Glo-Fish came in as a sample. I remember when there weren't any ball python morphs too. Needless to say I've seen it happen before. I guess all we can do is continue to discourage the practice within the hobby. As long as the demand is low or nonexistent as it is now, then we'll be in good shape. Until then, cheers to the purists!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

skylsdale said:


> We have seen it already in "Fine Spot Azureus," etc. Who really freaks out about those?


ME. I wouldnt buy them, or condone breeding them (not that that matters). Its especially irritating that they are sold for a higher price, even by some of the big breeders that have been around for a while. Its too bad some people want money more than whats good for the hobby.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MrFusion said:


> I remember when there weren't any ball python morphs too.


Hmm that must have been at least before the early to mid 1980s because even then ball pythons were being sorted at some stores by color and jungle patterns... and there were people even back then looking for melanistic animals at the importers. 

Ed


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## acam (May 3, 2011)

thedude said:


> ME. I wouldnt buy them, or condone breeding them (not that that matters). Its especially irritating that they are sold for a higher price, even by some of the big breeders that have been around for a while. Its too bad some people want money more than whats good for the hobby.


Regardless, if wouldn't buy one or condone breeding them. It may just happen to you. Breeding two random frogs together may just create a morph an albino a weird pattern or something else. You see a baby albino in your tank I know your not gonna kill it off. 
Im just saying, I believe that WC animals should be known as specific "locales" rivers, farms, mountain range, shit even collector. F1's and so on if crossed between locales should be considered "lines". Whoever is able to breed the frogs in captivity especially WC animals should get some kind of recognition on the paperwork because I know for a fact that everyone on this board hasn't had 100% success rate at breeding since they started.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

acam said:


> Regardless, if wouldn't buy one or condone breeding them. It may just happen to you. Breeding two random frogs together may just create a morph an albino a weird pattern or something else. You see a baby albino in your tank I know your not gonna kill it off.
> Im just saying, I believe that WC animals should be known as specific "locales" rivers, farms, mountain range, shit even collector. F1's and so on if crossed between locales should be considered "lines". Whoever is able to breed the frogs in captivity especially WC animals should get some kind of recognition on the paperwork because I know for a fact that everyone on this board hasn't had 100% success rate at breeding since they started.


I've heard of a couple albinos rarely popping up with things like retics and auratus, but it is certainly not common and if it happens, they should be treated like any "normal" frog and not bred just for that specific trait. Same with melanistic frogs, and so on.
The wild caught frogs' "locales" are just that- locales. Sometimes a certain locale is limited to an isolated island or mountain range, but other times they can be much more widespread than a single farm. So it doesn't make sense to split up every single import by importer, etc. An azureus is an azureus... there are no locales based on who/when they were imported and what field they were collected- there is only one locality of where they naturally occur. Crossing between two locales of the same species (i.e. tinctorius azureus and tinctorius cobalt) is not a new "line". It is an outcross. A hybrid is the offspring of two different species (i.e. auratus and tinctorius). 
A lot of the "lines" in the hobby are from very old imports. Line names aren't given for recognition or "credit" for the hard work of the breeder, but as a way to identify and differentiate between different imports and locales. For example, my mancreek pumilio pair bred and the female is wild caught- when I sell/ trade the offspring that I am growing out, they will not be "my" line... they will be F1 mancreek '07 imports bred by me. 
Hopefully that clears things up a bit.
Bryan


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

The term "locale" is horrible and very confusing/misleading because people often use it differently and to mean different things. "Population" is much better as it refers to a contiguous, interbreeding group of organisms. You could have frogs from different locales (i.e. geographic locations) but still from the same population. The same goes for "morph," which literally just means a physical/visual appearance or phenotype. You could have countless "morphs" within a single, interbreeding population.

Unfortunately, people assume both "morph" and "locale" mean the same thing as "population" when, in fact, they technically don't.

Given all that, a "line" is not a population...it is a certain subset of animals from a given population. You might have a seperate line which represents another subset of animals from that same population, but they aren't related (or are less related) to the animals from the first line...but still lived alongside one other in the original wild population. It is good to breed frogs together from separate lines in order to enhance genetic diversity within captive populations. The confusion comes, again, when people assume a "line" is the same thing as a population.


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

Lets say you cross line "A" with line "B", wouldn't the appropriate name for said cross be "AxB"? 

I feel like that would be the least confusing way to keep track of things


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

jackxc925 said:


> Lets say you cross line "A" with line "B", wouldn't the appropriate name for said cross be "AxB"?
> 
> I feel like that would be the least confusing way to keep track of things


Or even less confusing....don't cross different populations at all!


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

afterdark said:


> Or even less confusing....don't cross different populations at all!


Lines are not populations. Lines that come from the same population should/can be crossed for genetic diversity


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## acam (May 3, 2011)

afterdark said:


> Or even less confusing....don't cross different populations at all!


You don't know if your crossing "populations" your just breeding the "importers" line. You by one frog one year and another frog another year you have no proof they were the same population unless you collected them yourself or the collector has proof they are from the same population.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

acam said:


> You don't know if your crossing "populations" your just breeding the "importers" line. You by one frog one year and another frog another year you have no proof they were the same population unless you collected them yourself or the collector has proof they are from the same population.


Correct, and in the hobby they would be managed (in the ASN, for instance) as separate _captive_ populations because we can't guarantee that they are from the same wild population. This stinks as far as captive population management and genetics goes...but is an extra precaution to prevent against mixing animals that simply weren't found together in the wild.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I would suggest folks join TWI and keep tabs on steward management pojects and published TMPs on the subject

When in doubt email a long term hobbiest or thread the group here

The question of line naming, crossing, ect is complicated and cant easily be oversimplified i am afraid

S


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

acam said:


> You don't know if your crossing "populations" your just breeding the "importers" line. You by one frog one year and another frog another year you have no proof they were the same population unless you collected them yourself or the collector has proof they are from the same population.


There you go! A fine example of someone (me) using the terms incorrectly and making things confusing. Thanks for correcting me, guys.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Ed said:


> Hmm that must have been at least before the early to mid 1980s because even then ball pythons were being sorted at some stores by color and jungle patterns... and there were people even back then looking for melanistic animals at the importers.
> 
> Ed


 Are you implying that I'm old, Ed? LOL I never worked in the reptile trade, but when I was younger I collected reptiles and worked in pet shops. I don't remember any morphs being available on the wholesale sheets back in the early to mid 90's, but that could have just been a circumstance of dealing with the breeder we bought from. I'm sure they had the more exotic stuff at conventions and what not though, but can't say from personal experience. At this point, to me at anyway, the whole reptile morph thing seems a little out of hand and nobody appreciates what nature produces in it's raw form anymore. Well, almost nobody.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MrFusion said:


> Are you implying that I'm old, Ed? LOL I never worked in the reptile trade, but when I was younger I collected reptiles and worked in pet shops. I don't remember any morphs being available on the wholesale sheets back in the early to mid 90's, but that could have just been a circumstance of dealing with the breeder we bought from. I'm sure they had the more exotic stuff at conventions and what not though, but can't say from personal experience. At this point, to me at anyway, the whole reptile morph thing seems a little out of hand and nobody appreciates what nature produces in it's raw form anymore. Well, almost nobody.


I was working in the pet industry at that time and remember Bruce at the old Bronx reptiles offering jungle pattern ball pythons... That was also when people started looking for melanistic animals... 

Ed


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