# Help! Frog had seizure (?). Vet said parasites and skin bacteria



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Hi everyone. I’m new to the hobby, but have been a longtime lurker of the forum and tried to do as much research as I could before I got my 2 azureus. 

Long story short, while I had been planning to get the PDFs for quite some time and set up my tank, I didn’t expect to purchase them last week at Petco. I went in to get some supplies and I fell in love. They looked pretty healthy, employees knew about PDFs, and the manager had had PDFs in his own bioactive tank a few years back. So I got them. Petco has had them about 2 months and they were about 1/2-3/4” long. My best guess is that they’re 4-6mo old. While I didn’t plan to buy from Petco, I saw them when I was there and they captured my heart. Plus, the employees seemed to take good care of them (seemed knowledgeable about frogs where other pet stores I’d been to seemed clueless) and I couldn’t resist their Black Friday sale. 

I know I may get some flak from people on this forum- it’s past that point so please don’t @ me in the comments telling me I shouldn’t have gotten them and this is why they’re having health issues. I’m writing this post because I need advice. Please provide constructive feedback. 

I QT’d them together (now I know I should’ve done them separately), for a couple days. They looked sad and seemed to be eating and pooping ok, so I put them in their tank. They seemed MUCH happier, were out more and checking out their new digs. One of them (Skye), is very timid. Always hiding. If I come around, she retreats. I never see her eat. The other “guy” is Bozo. He’s a bit of a goof, loves to climb the walls and poop there or on a leaf. He’s more bold, but does have his shy moments. He’s a pig. When food’s out, he’s usually there and typically doesn’t mind me putting the FFs in, but occasionally will hide. 

I have to feed multiple times since I’m worried about Skye. Even though I try to feed small amounts, it’s hard to gauge how many I’m putting in. They say it stressed frogs out if they’re too many FFs, I try my best not to put too many in and just hope Skye is eating when I’m not around. It’s been exactly one week since I’ve got them last Friday. In that time, Bozo has fattened a little. He’s now slightly bigger than Skye (almost close to an inch of my eyeballing is correct). Skye hasn’t lost weight (I think?), but she’s much smaller looking than Bozo. 

My main concern is the calcium. I dust every feeding with Repashy Calcium Plus. However, since the humidity is 98-100% humidity and the flies roam around, the calcium wears off in a few minutes. I’m worried they’re not getting the calcium they need. Is there a way to get the calcium to stick and stay on the FFs?

I have a 20 gallon high bioactive tank that’s heavily planted, 2.5” false bottom, 2” ABG mix with clay amendment, leaf litter, UVB light, temp around 75, humidity over 90%. I set up 3 “feeding stations” where I put some orange slices so most of the FFs congregate there. 

Yesterday, was a rare occurrence. I hid and was able to watch Skye eat. She will stare intently at the FFs on the orange. She missed a few times (depth perception?) so she finally got closer and even jumped on the orange slice. I saw her get one FF. A few minutes later, she jumped onto a ledge. I wasn’t sure what she was doing, but she did this head bobbing thing. A couple minutes later, it looked like she had a seizure. She sort of spasmed for 10 seconds. Then just sat staring off into space. I called a reputable reptile vet, but he was out until mid December. So I called Petco, and they recommend that same vet (who was OOO) and then another one they worked with. I quarantined them in separate tanks and took them to the vet. 

The vet I saw doesn’t see many frogs. He seemed a bit clueless about what to do, kept referring his to some book he had open. He said they don’t get many reptiles. I got the feeling he wasn’t taking my frogs very seriously. 

They said Skye had pooped but Bozo didn’t (although when I picked up the cage he had one stool sample). Skye’s stool had parasites in it (strongyle larvae, strongylid eggs, and Protozoa). It didn’t sound like they did a float. He said they swabbed both Skye and Bozo’s skin and found some bacterial. He said it’s typical to find some bacteria present, but coupled with the symptoms I noticed, his recommendation was to treat that as well. Again, he didn’t seem to know much, when I asked if they could check for calcium deficiency, the types of skin bacteria, etc, he said they were small animals and it’s difficult to find out. They had had both of my frogs all day and were now closing so I took their recommendations and went home to treat. Ridiculous that they hadn’t treated them there!! I didn’t want to stress them out when it was so late in the night (7pm), but figured treating was the right thing to do. 

Treatment Plan:
Fluid LRS (supposedly some electrolyte solution): soak 5 min everyday
500mg metronidazole in 10cc sterile water: soak 5min everyday for 5 days. Rinse with electrolyte solution
15ml Baytril Otic: 1 drop on skin everyday for 7 days. No rinse. 
10% Pancur per cc: 0.1ml by mouth or topically every 14 days, for 2 treatments (intestinal parasites)

Last night, I did everything but the Pancur. They said to space it out and do Pancur in the morning. I’m letting them eat before I do Pancur this morning. Last night, they took everything but the Baytril Otic ok. When I put the Baytril on, they freaked, trying to get out of the cup. Both of them had the same reaction. When I tried putting them back in the QT tanks, they wouldn’t move out of the cups. They wouldn’t move. I would’ve thought they were dead if I didn’t see them breathing. I was so scared!! I placed the cups in their respective QT tank, hoping they’d move of their own volition. After 10min, with no movement, I had to gently coax/push them out. I put them in another room in the dark overnight, monitoring temp and himifdity. 

While Bozo is pretty healthy and active, I haven’t seen any seizure or odd behavior yet, we decided to treat both of them since they’ve been in the same tank at Petco and with me. 

This morning, they seemed alert, but more importantly alive! I put a feeding station in each QT tank and added some FFs. Bozo came out of hiding to climb the tank wall. I didn’t see him eat. Skye ate 2 FFs! But then seemed to lose interest and start looking out the tank wall. It had been 10min and I decided to leave and let them get on with it. I’ll check to see how many FFs got eaten and then do the Panacur. I just hope they eat quickly because the calcium wears off quickly in a humid enclosure!

My questions:
Since my vet seemed utterly clueless, I’m hoping someone here can help. Most of the medicines he prescribed seem prescribed for frogs. However, the Baytril Otic is atypically diluted and frogs soaked in it. Also, if this was simply a calcium deficiency, should I be soaking them in calcium, too? From searching dendroboard it seems like I shouldn’t buy the Flukers calcium soak and I need a special calcium gluconate? Or buy Repashy and use it to soak. The only issue is, I’ve been to all the pet stores in a 50 mile radius (even a reptile pet store) but none of them carry anything but Repashys Calcium Plus. If I buy online, it may take a couple days (love Amazon!). Is the vet on the right track? He didn’t know what kind of parasites they were, said the stool sample was so small for these frogs that a true analysis can’t be done. Now from what I’ve read, that’s false. But the vet tech said that because there is presence of parasites, regardless of type, I should begin treatment. 

Skye seemed otherwise healthy except for that seizure incident. I google what it might be (I’m no expert and the internet is full of misinformation) but I thought it might be:
Parasites
Calcium deficiency or too much phosphorus?
Bacterial/fungal skin infection (or chytrid/ranavirus)
Tap water chlorine

I do have 2 water bowls in the tank even though I read they don’t need one. I thought it would be nice for them to have. I use Brita filtered water that is then treated with Reptisafe Water Conditioner (has added electrolytes). I clean the water daily. Was told to wash the bowls weekly. I originally had planned to use RO water but read online (for tree frogs) that RO water is bad for them and they could die. Since the Reptisafe has something in it that removes chloramines, I wasn’t sure if using that with RO water would harm the frogs, this I used the filtered tap water (for some reason my TDS meter is *higher* after I filter with Brita...). 

Can someone please provide advise? The meds the vet prescribed seem legit and are used to treat frogs. I just don’t know if it’s too much for them (Skye seems fragile). Are the strengths ok? I’m nervous taking them out of their tanks for these treatments is super stressful for them. 

Also, I asked if I should take apart my bioactive tank since there is likely some poop in there that had the parasites. He said it’s fine since the tank seems large enough and they won’t be eating their feces. What do you recommend I do? Should I take it apart and disinfect everything? Or is what the vet said true? What if one of the isopods eats the poop and then the frogs eat the isopod? The vet said parasites are typically seen in crowded tanks where frogs don’t get enough food and may eat poop. If I use Zoomed’s Wipe Out to clean the tank, is that ok? Or do I need to bleach everything? After all this, I’d hate to have them get reinfected. 

During their treatments, I am disinfecting and cleaning their QT tanks (everyday). It’s quite a process. Luckily, it’s fall and the trees in my backyard haven’t been raked so I have a ton of leaf litter I can sterilize in the microwave (persimmon, magnolia, oak, maple, loquat, avocado, fig to name a few). All organics! I rinse and then sterilize with RO water in the microwave for 2 minutes. The leaf litter for the isos and tanks has been baked for 30min at 350F, but with these daily QT tank changes it’s much easier to microwave. 

Apologies for the novel. I wanted to include as much relevant info as I could. I’m hoping their alertness today means they’re on the road to recovery. I just wonder if also adding in a calcium soak might help since they don’t seem to eat their FFs right away and the dust wears off. From the threads I’ve read here, one can’t possible gutload FFs or springtails, but I am making my own mixes which include paprika, beetroot powder, and spirulina so even if it’s a little bit, it could help. Perhaps I can try feeding isos? They have a small amount of calcium in their shells and if dusted, might get better calcium supplementation that way. 

FYI I live in the Bay Area, South Bay. If any of you fellow hobbyists have vet info or any Repashy soaks you can share/I can purchase, I’d be grateful. Better than waiting a few days to get my stuff in. 

Thanks in advance for your guidance.


----------



## jtherr (Nov 2, 2017)

Have you ever used a vitamin A supplement in addition to calcium plus? Also the vet is right in saying it is very difficult to test for calcium deficiency in an animal that is so small. Many analyzers in veterinary medicine are adapted from human medicine and thus require a larger sample than our reptiles and amphibians can supply. Also reptiles and amphibians have nucleated red blood cells, which also further complicates the issue because typical analyzers in most veterinary practices are not setup to read things changes from the patients that are normally seen (mammals). Getting even a 0.5ml of blood out of a frog that size would likely be too dangerous. 

The medications and the presence of parasites on the fecal sample may not be the primary problem. However, in the presence of other issues that have been noted, it is likely still beneficial to treat to avoid secondary infections from a compromised immune system. 

If you have shallow water bowls in the quarantine enclosure, you can decrease the humidity slightly to help with the calcium sticking to the flies.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

jtherr said:


> Have you ever used a vitamin A supplement in addition to calcium plus? Also the vet is right in saying it is very difficult to test for calcium deficiency in an animal that is so small. Many analyzers in veterinary medicine are adapted from human medicine and thus require a larger sample than our reptiles and amphibians can supply. Also reptiles and amphibians have nucleated red blood cells, which also further complicates the issue because typical analyzers in most veterinary practices are not setup to read things changes from the patients that are normally seen (mammals). Getting even a 0.5ml of blood out of a frog that size would likely be too dangerous.
> 
> The medications and the presence of parasites on the fecal sample may not be the primary problem. However, in the presence of other issues that have been noted, it is likely still beneficial to treat to avoid secondary infections from a compromised immune system.
> 
> If you have shallow water bowls in the quarantine enclosure, you can decrease the humidity slightly to help with the calcium sticking to the flies.


I will decrease humidity to 80%. Right now it’s tough since their QT tanks are critter keepers and a plastic shoebox. To make sure the FFs don’t escape, I have to use Saran Wrap and/or cover the drilled holes with aquarium floss. 

However, I will add shallow water bowls with a mix of Repashy’s Calcium Plus and some RO water. Do you know how to mix it? IE how much water and powder to add? Can I use Flukers liquid? Some threads said don’t use it; others used it fine. 

From what I read, the Repashy Calcium Plus has vitamin A (again that only applies if the dust is reaching them). JL Exotics told me I didn’t need to buy the Vitamin A or Superpig (?) supplement since I had Calcium Plus. Do you think they have a a Vit A deficiency? Originally I thought Skye might have STS, but she seemed to get her FFs ok today (at least the 2 I saw her eat). 

I’m going to check on them now and do the Panacur treatment. I really hope the treatments are doing more good than stressing them out. 

Thanks for the advice!


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Forgot to add, Skye weighs 1g; Bozo 2g. Assuming they both weighed approx the same amount when I got them, you can tell by weight alone that Bozo is “healthier.” However, I didn’t weigh or measure them when I got them. Didn’t want to stress them out.


----------



## jtherr (Nov 2, 2017)

Yes, calcium plus does contain vitamin A in the form of retinol. However, since we don't know the supplement use history it is possible that they still have a deficiency. Also the calcium plus does not contain nearly the levels that the repashy vitamin A supplement does and if the frogs are deficient then its possible the calcium plus is not providing enough. 

I have not personally used a calcium solution for soaking in the past. However, keep in mind that lactated ringers solution does contain calcium in addition to the other electrolytes commonly thought of. My guess would be that calcium would be better absorbed through lactated ringers than a calcium powder mixed with water.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

I picked up Flukers liquid calcium (Fluker Labs SFK73061 Liquid Calcium Concentrated Reptile Supplement, 1.7-Ounce https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006HX013A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_bxJaCb0YD4A6M) and liquid multivitamin (Mojetto FLUKER Repta Vit Liquid 1.7oz https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006HX00X6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_EyJaCb0S680SG). I think I’ll put one of them (calcium?) in their water bowls tomorrow so they have the option to soak. 

I spoke with the Petco manager who is part of the hobby. He’s owned and raised PDFs for 5 years, seemed knowledgeable about the meds, and is a dendroboard member. He seemed shocked that there could be parasites (and I’m honestly not sure the vet properly checked for parasites or just came to that conclusion). But the manager said these were captive-born frogs, could trace back their lineage and will be providing me with their paperwork. The vendor they got them from is a very reputable vendor who is actually a dendroboard sponsor. He’s technically not allowed to tell me, but did share the company name with me and they’re very well known. Apparently, they have a wholesale side where they sell to pet stores. He seemed knowledgeable about the meds I was given, and while he didn’t want to contradict the vet, he said he didn’t think I should be putting my frogs through all this. He said maybe if I hadn’t washed off pesticides completely, then some frogs have a seizure-like reaction. I washed off as much soil from the roots as possible, and then rinsed the leaves well (I think). Then, put them in sterile coco coir and grew them like that for a month before adding them to the terrarium. How long does one wait to ensure the pesticides have dissipated? Most of my plants came in pesticide-free and/or tissue culture, but 3 plants came from Home Depot or Lowe’s and were cleaned thoroughly and grown on sterile media with RO water for a month. 

I am getting a second opinion with a vet that actually sends out fecal samples and may have a bit more experience with PDFs. Not sure since the vet is OOO until Tuesday. 

I know the treatments really stress out the frogs, but I’m not sure Bozo will benefit as much. From my observation, he was healthy, eating a lot, active, putting in weight before all this. I think the treatments cause him undue stress, esp since we’re unsure if he also has parasites. I will treat him one more day and then discontinue. Not sure it’s the best plan, but if he seemed healthy before, stressing him out by treating him for potential issues may cause more harm than good IMHO. What are others’ thoughts?

For Skye, I will continue with the treatment until our appointment with the vet Tuesday. Hopefully, she’ll be given a clean bill of health. My heart aches when I see her freak out when I place a drop of meds on her back  I hope she makes it through OK


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

From your other thread 

Actually the vet is right, freshly read fecals are always going to be better for determining what is going on with an animal than one that has been shipped. As an example, an overgrowth of protozoa in the fecal isn't likely to be be detected as these organisms die before shipped fecals are processed and read. Overgrowths of protozoa indicate that something is off with the animal and they contribute to irritation of the digestive tract which reduces feeding and nutrient uptake. 

As for the skin bacteria, it depends on their opinion about the diversity found... as overgrowths can indicate things like immune suppression from stress or other reasons. It could also be due to the fact that the frogs in the store are probably exposed to multiple other animals since their setups cannot prevent cross contamination. I should also note, that certain chains are known to purchase from people who hybridize the frogs and identify them based on appearance so you may not actually have "true" azureus. 

Since for treatment you don't need to have the worms identified down to species level, an identification as to general type is sufficient for treatment so I'm not sure why your questioning the Strongyle identification. It isn't uncommon for parasites like worms to show up in captive bred frogs since "clean" fecals don't mean the frog is parasite free, just that nothing was detected at that time. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You might want to take it easy on freaking out about the calcium since going crazy about it can cause more harm than good... 

First and foremost, if the frogs are deficient in D3, just increasing calcium isn't going to improve the condition since the D3 is required for metabolic uptake of the calcium. 

Secondly too much calcium can cause conditional deficiencies of other micronutrients ranging from zinc deficiency to calcium soaps in the digestive tract. 

Third, adding it to bowls in the tank is pretty useless, if the D3 levels are adequate (and it isn't caused by something else like too much phosphorus), you would need to force the frog to soak in it...... 

People don't pay attention to the literature that calcium has one of the narrowest safe windows of a "marconutrient" and too much or too little is a real problem. 

People over estimate the amount of calories the frogs need to just make it through the day... it can be less than ten flies per day depending on temperature and other factors. If there are still flies in the tank the next day, your overfeeding the frogs, feeding stations aren't required they are just an easy way to estimate the number of flies in the cage... and even then if you stirred up the leaf litter you would probably see a lot of flies still present. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Ed said:


> You might want to take it easy on freaking out about the calcium since going crazy about it can cause more harm than good...
> 
> First and foremost, if the frogs are deficient in D3, just increasing calcium isn't going to improve the condition since the D3 is required for metabolic uptake of the calcium.
> 
> ...


Wow! I feel honored I got a comment from Ed! 😊 I’ve seen your comments on other threads in the past and feel you really know what you’re talking about (both anecdotally as well as backed up by evidence-based articles and citations). 

I have “new owner syndrome” and am helicoptering these two frogs. Since I’m new to the hobby, I want to make sure I’m doing everything right and making them happy and healthy. Since all the articles and threads I’ve read said to monitor your frogs for a month to ensure they’re doing ok, I guess I may have overdid it. I (wrongly) assumed too much calcium wasn’t an issue as most people point to calcium deficiency in PDFs and in humans, calcium is water-soluble, so any excess is simply excreted in our urine. I guess frogs’ bodies process it differently. I was concerned Skye (the one who had a seizure), wasn’t getting enough calcium since my tank humidity is very high and by the time she does eat, the FFs are no longer dusted. I’m lowering my tank humidity to 80-85% hoping that the FFs will stay dusted loner. 

The Petco manager said for these two, I should be feeding about 1 tsp of FFs between the two of them, so I was def overfeeding. I think the tank was too large for them, which is why I set up the feeding stations. 

You mentioned phosphorus overdose, which I’ve also read online. Should I use RepCal’s phosphorus-free calcium/multi for a few feedings instead? I have it, but was going to use up the Repashy Cal Plus/wait until 6mo when it was not as effective before opening the RepCal. 

In your opinion, would you tear down their tank, sanitize it, dispose of the plants/bleach them, before reintroducing them to the tank? Or as the vet said, it should be fine? I’m concerned that after the treatments, if they eat any springs or isos that have eaten their poop will reinfect them. 

One last, but important q: in these were your frogs, would you continue with the vet’s treatment plan (4 meds) or would you discontinue? They get super stressed when I treat them. For some reason the Baytril and Panacur make them freak out. I’m wondering if it’s burning their skin. Also, Bozo wasn’t displaying any symptoms that he was sick. But since he shared Skye’s tank, I thought it best to treat both. Two hobbyists I’ve spoken to said they wouldn’t follow the vet’s rx since most people in the hobby would wait it out and hope for the best. 

Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate hearing from someone like you who has tons of knowledge and science to back up his comments.


----------



## jtherr (Nov 2, 2017)

sunnysideup said:


> I (wrongly) assumed too much calcium wasn’t an issue as most people point to calcium deficiency in PDFs and in humans, calcium is water-soluble, so any excess is simply excreted in our urine. I guess frogs’ bodies process it differently. I was concerned Skye (the one who had a seizure), wasn’t getting enough calcium since my tank humidity is very high and by the time she does eat, the FFs are no longer dusted. I’m lowering my tank humidity to 80-85% hoping that the FFs will stay dusted loner.
> 
> You mentioned phosphorus overdose, which I’ve also read online. Should I use RepCal’s phosphorus-free calcium/multi for a few feedings instead? I have it, but was going to use up the Repashy Cal Plus/wait until 6mo when it was not as effective before opening the RepCal.
> 
> ...


You are correct in saying that calcium is normally excreted in the urine. However, you are missing some of the other aspects of calcium metabolism that are important in the regulation of this electrolyte. Vitamin D3 is essential in the regulation of calcium because it dictates the amount of absorption of calcium that is taken up from the diet. In frogs we provide vitamin D3 almost exclusively through supplementation since UVB lighting is difficult for many of us that also need almost complete glass tops to our enclosures to maintain humidity. Vitamin D3 is not water soluble, in fact it is the exact opposite being lipid soluble. Due to this property it accumulates in tissues of the body, making it a vitamin that can potentially be overdosed. Water soluble vitamins like vitamin C or the B vitamins are extremely difficult to overdose comparatively because excess is readily excreted in the urine.

Yes phosphorus can also be an issue if too high. This can be a very real problem in the hobby for those that don't use calcium dusting on their feeder insects, because just about all of the feeder insects have high amounts of phosphorus relative to the calcium they contain. Increased phosphorus overtime can cause secondary hyperparathyroidism as Ed was alluding to above. In this pathological state, the body leaches calcium from the bones to keep the ratio of calciumhosphorus appropriate. The leaching of calcium from the bones can cause metabolic bone disease. 

It is ultimately your choice in whether you continue to treat with your currently prescribed antibiotics. I would be careful in saying the medication is burning their skin. If they aren't and lesions that suggest the skin integrity is being compromised, it is likely uncomfortable just as if you or I chewed a medication that should normally be swallowed. It's unpleasant, but not harming us. The real issue is that we don't know what we are treating, and the medications prescribed are likely being used to prevent secondary issues from occurring due to immune suppression from the primary disease process. Some of which could be stress related from moving to a new environment.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

jtherr said:


> You are correct in saying that calcium is normally excreted in the urine. However, you are missing some of the other aspects of calcium metabolism that are important in the regulation of this electrolyte. Vitamin D3 is essential in the regulation of calcium because it dictates the amount of absorption of calcium that is taken up from the diet. In frogs we provide vitamin D3 almost exclusively through supplementation since UVB lighting is difficult for many of us that also need almost complete glass tops to our enclosures to maintain humidity. Vitamin D3 is not water soluble, in fact it is the exact opposite being lipid soluble. Due to this property it accumulates in tissues of the body, making it a vitamin that can potentially be overdosed. Water soluble vitamins like vitamin C or the B vitamins are extremely difficult to overdose comparatively because excess is readily excreted in the urine.
> 
> Yes phosphorus can also be an issue if too high. This can be a very real problem in the hobby for those that don't use calcium dusting on their feeder insects, because just about all of the feeder insects have high amounts of phosphorus relative to the calcium they contain. Increased phosphorus overtime can cause secondary hyperparathyroidism as Ed was alluding to above. In this pathological state, the body leaches calcium from the bones to keep the ratio of calciumhosphorus appropriate. The leaching of calcium from the bones can cause metabolic bone disease.
> 
> It is ultimately your choice in whether you continue to treat with your currently prescribed antibiotics. I would be careful in saying the medication is burning their skin. If they aren't and lesions that suggest the skin integrity is being compromised, it is likely uncomfortable just as if you or I chewed a medication that should normally be swallowed. It's unpleasant, but not harming us. The real issue is that we don't know what we are treating, and the medications prescribed are likely being used to prevent secondary issues from occurring due to immune suppression from the primary disease process. Some of which could be stress related from moving to a new environment.


Thanks for this! I didn’t even think about vitamin D. I may purchase the “calcium LoD” and alternate with the reg calcium plus. I’m also going to purchase vitamin a since I should be supplementing with that monthly for juvies (according to NEHERP). 

You’re prob right about the meds. It just pains me to see them freak out so much. There are no lesions, so it’s likely not burning them. I just assumed it must be or it must smell really bad because they keep trying to escape the treatment cups. 

Even though the treatments stress them out, Skye seems to be doing better. She’s more active in the QT tank than in the larger tank. Not sure if that’s because I’m around more or because she’s more comfortable in a smaller enclosure or if the treatments are working. 

Thanks for the info about vitamin D/phosphorus. I do have Uv lighting so I think alternating with a LoD calcium supplement is a good idea


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I get new owner syndrome... 

I would follow the vet's advice since it is pretty much typical in that case. 

Without evidence, I would not alternate dusting with a lot D3 supplement. 

some comments. 

Ed


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Thank you!! I did follow the vet’s advice, until I saw another vet this past Tuesday. He said the meds were typical, but had two issues with treating for skin bacteria which is normally present. He said it sounded like a bad idea to treat the skin bacteria with 2 meds without knowing if it was actually causing these symptoms. He did also mention that the Baytril Otic was likely irritating the frogs’ skin since it contains a debriding (?) agent because it is meant for ears. He said he would’ve prescribed a non-Otic solution, but recommended to simply diurese the frogs in RO water at the right temp and discontinue the meds (except for Panacur since it is just one more treatment). 

After discontinuing meds, they seemed less stressed. I know I was! However, the “healthy” Bozo had two issues during feeding. I noticed his tongue got stuck to his nose and he had to jerk/use his hand to get it to unstick a couple times (could’ve been the RepCal powder). Also, one of his legs sort of uncontrollably (quickly) jerked around for a few seconds. It was kind of like something was on his leg and he was trying to shake it off. But there’s no substrate in the QT tank and I didn’t see a FF on him. I’m wondering if this is actually the “seizure” I saw Skye have. 

Even though I’ve discontinued the meds, their pooping schedule is off. They used to poop one turd each per day. Now it’s every other day, sometimes every day. 

Joshs Frogs’ Helpline said the symptoms I mentioned sound like a calcium deficiency. They did also agree that too much calcium is worse than not enough calcium. They didn’t recommend Repashy SuperCal for this, but said there is a calcium gluconate solution I could use, but it would need vet supervision. My vet is out until Monday. 

Does everyone think there’s a calcium deficiency? Should I just keep feeding dusted FFs?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Why would you want to stop using dusted flies? 

As for the jerking, frogs can itch or get something irritating them....just like many other animals. 

As for the tongue thing, just be glad you don't have to deal with this https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ntists-want-them-stop/?utm_term=.6db6174e5c00

Typically trembling of all of the limbs at the same time is a symptom of low calcium levels as the muscles are having issues, or if the frog is made to hop several times you can get the rigid seizure where it stretches out and "shivers".. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Apologies if my post was confusing. I was wondering if people thought the jerking issue/prob w catching FFs was due to a calcium deficiency. If so, i was wondering if the proper course of treatment is continuing to simply feed dusted FFs or the calcium gluconate soak. I am still dusting every feeding! But I’ve also added Vit A to the mix (1x per week/bimonthly if they have a Vit A deficiency). Not sure how often to dust with vit A since there seems to be a lot of different opinions on this. What’s your Vit A schedule?


----------



## jtherr (Nov 2, 2017)

sunnysideup said:


> Not sure how often to dust with vit A since there seems to be a lot of different opinions on this. What’s your Vit A schedule?


You're right, there are a number of varying opinions on vitamin A supplementation. From what I have seen on the forum previously it is not recommended to do any more frequently than 1 time per week. As I mentioned above, vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin and can potentially be overdosed. In addition Repashy cal-plus has some vitamin A in it already.

I generally do 2 times a month, being every 2 weeks. This is what I have found works best with my breeding dart frog pairs. I originally was doing 1 time per month, but found that later in the season the clutches of eggs would occasionally mold over. Going to 2 times a month has resolved this issue for me. 

I will feed froglets with dusted fruit flies of vitamin A twice a month as well.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

jtherr said:


> You're right, there are a number of varying opinions on vitamin A supplementation. From what I have seen on the forum previously it is not recommended to do any more frequently than 1 time per week. As I mentioned above, vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin and can potentially be overdosed. In addition Repashy cal-plus has some vitamin A in it already.
> 
> I generally do 2 times a month, being every 2 weeks. This is what I have found works best with my breeding dart frog pairs. I originally was doing 1 time per month, but found that later in the season the clutches of eggs would occasionally mold over. Going to 2 times a month has resolved this issue for me.
> 
> I will feed froglets with dusted fruit flies of vitamin A twice a month as well.


Thank you! Since Repashy Cal Plus contains Vit A, I prob should be fine doing it 2x a month. Just curious, does this apply if (as others have hypothesized) my frogs have a Vit A deficiency or should I dust more than 2x per month for the next month? I don’t want to overdose the Vit A, but I notice not all the dusted FFs are eaten by the “sick” frog since she hides for a long time. By the time she comes out to hunt, only some of the FFs still have dust on them. I’ve lowered the humidity to 70% to try and remedy this, but the FFs wall through the substrate. Any tips to make sure the “sick” frog gets its vitamins without overdosing the “healthy” frog?


----------



## jtherr (Nov 2, 2017)

sunnysideup said:


> Just curious, does this apply if (as others have hypothesized) my frogs have a Vit A deficiency or should I dust more than 2x per month for the next month?
> 
> Any tips to make sure the “sick” frog gets its vitamins without overdosing the “healthy” frog?


If the frogs are doing better, I would try twice a month. Theoretically, if they are deficient, which we don't know for sure at this time, then more frequent supplementation would be needed. I still would not exceed more than once a week with vitamin A.

The most effective way would be to have them separated until healthy enough to compete with the other frog.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

jtherr said:


> If the frogs are doing better, I would try twice a month. Theoretically, if they are deficient, which we don't know for sure at this time, then more frequent supplementation would be needed. I still would not exceed more than once a week with vitamin A.
> 
> The most effective way would be to have them separated until healthy enough to compete with the other frog.


Thank you! Yes, I probably should separate them, but when I had them in separate QT containers, the healthy one escaped and somehow got into the “sick” one’s container. Since they were tankmates the entire time and the vet said we’d do the same treatment for both, I figured it was ok to keep them together. The vitamin a supplementation is my only concern since I don’t want to OD the healthy one. 

While they both don’t seem to have problems eating, I did see the “sick” one miss a couple times last week. So she may still have a slight vitamin A deficiency. If she continues to have issues, I’ll separate and feed her vitamin A once weekly until I see an improvement. I remember seeing a youtuber (dendrozone) who did a vitamin A soak. Could I do a soak instead? Overall, she’s gotten better at getting the flies and eats more.


----------

