# Dart Playing Dead



## Smotz (Jul 20, 2015)

So I was spraying the Dying Dart viv, one of the guys got spooked and jumped out on to the floor (about a 2 ft drop), then bolted under the coffee table.

Ok, calm down. Close the viv, and gently move everything out of the way. picked up the table and moved it about 3 feet away. Frog bolts under the table again. Picked up the table and put it back to the original spot.

Was able to get in front of the Dart and GENTLY pick him up and put him back in the viv.

However, he was playing dead. He would lay on his back, not move when touched, etc.

After about 15 minutes he hopped away.

Is this standard stuff?


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## medusa (Oct 30, 2011)

yep, standard stuff. Darts are well known for feigning death. Should be fine.


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## CharValley (Feb 29, 2016)

I was searching on a member and ran across this post and thought of a story of one of my froglet tanks and a story that some might find worth a thought if they run into a "what happened" situation.

I was feeding tanks and one of them had been pushed too deep under the shelf and I had to pull it back to the front.

Below this tank was a 5 gallon tank that I use for newly morphed froglets. I keep them in this small of a tank, usually no more than 5 individuals at a time (per 5 gal tank). I like to know that the food insects are concentrated and that the little guys can find food even with competition. Plus it allows me to easily watch for growth issues and any other health issues that might show as they are first developing as young frogs.

I like to keep this tank with a wet substrate because they are newly morphed and just getting used to solid ground under their feet, it seems to work well and have never had a death using this format.

So, as I'm pulling out this one tank an electrical cord from it's light gets hooked on the 5 gal and before I realize it the 5 gallon tank is on its side and the substrate is covering all five of the froglets. (this tank had D. Leucomelas = British Guyana, yellow banded)

I'm of course panicking, cursing and frantically trying to carefully but quickly find each of the froglets.

I found 4 of them but of course the one that I can't find is one that I have had an eye on. It has a solid patch of yellow instead of the normal banding around the outside edges as well as several other interesting markings. His morph color was also orange.

So I'm trying to be as quick and careful as possible to find this little guy and after a good 5 minutes or so I finally found him. Upside down, legs loose and no visible indication of breathing. I used the spray bottle and washed him off turning him over and hoping against hope that he would be ok but no movement.

I didn't want to give up on the little guy but figured it was too late. Not wanting to just trash him and needing to put everything back in order and check on the other froglets, I put him back into a separate 5g tank and set him on a piece of leaf litter. When I set him down he was on his back. Now don't ask me why I left him on his back, although I was almost tempted to try giving him CPR with a small wet Q-tip but didn't.

I don't remember what the rest of the night was like but I got pulled away and forgot about him.

The next morning when I went to take care of him and give him the ritual "flush" to my surprise he was hiding under some leaf litter and moving around just as if nothing had happened. Now he has had slower growth than the others and is probably the smallest of all my froglets from that clutch but he is eating and competing with all of his tank mates.

So my story may be a precautionary one that you want to watch those light cords but even more important is don't give up on a frog that is on his back and looking dead. It could be that you are flushing a faker instead of finding that a couple hours after your shock he is up and doing what Darts do best.. being smarter than us 

Steamy


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

What do you use for supplements and how old are they?
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/77989-froglet-faking-death.html#post690324


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Be cautious of this. 

I'm not entirely sure "feigning death" is a natural behavior of the frogs as someone may have suggested.

Does the frog look like it's having seizures at all? Shaking legs and rapid muscle movement on their sides?


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

medusa said:


> Darts are well known for feigning death. Should be fine.


Are they? Where did you come across that information?


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## CharValley (Feb 29, 2016)

I had been using a combination of the well recognized supplements Herptivite, Rep-Cal calcium with vit D. and one of two others that I don't remember but were highly suggested to be used. But...

For over a year now I have been using Dendrocare daily and as the only supplement used. I have banded Leuc's that are now full grown and beginning to breed themselves. Those and all my other frogs receive a daily dusting of Dendrocare.

None of my frogs have shown any seizure, leg syndrome, weak body or bone development and there does not be an issue with breeding adults as they will usually produce "standard" clutch sizes and very few "infertile" eggs are found once the parent frogs begin producing viable clutches. The original adult trio's of banded are now on the second year of this supplement only and are currently producing clutches about every 10+ days. 

I replace my supplement bottle of Dendrocare approx. every 4-6 months depending on summer or winter but I do try to keep it "fresh".

The little guy that was the focus of this story is growing and shows no indication that he ever had that happen and I have never seen it again, from him or any other's.

I only told the story because it was one of those things where I might have "flushed" a frog that wasn't actually dead but appeared to be at the time.


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## medusa (Oct 30, 2011)

cml1287 said:


> Are they? Where did you come across that information?


Witnessed countless times in my ~20 years of frog keeping both at home and in institutional collections that I worked with. Usually (not always) happens when I have to chase one down because it escaped. It used to be common knowledge but I guess with so many people these days not publicly sharing their experiences for some reason.....

It seems that the OP as well as the second poster witnessed it themselves, as did the OP of the thread that ReefHaven linked. I would bet if you searched the forum you would find even more cases. But every time someone reports witnessing this they are told "no, no you did not see what you thought you saw" and immediately label it as ionic deficiency. Yes, calcium/vitD deficiencies can and do cause seizures. But this is different than death feigning. 

I cannot totally discount a seizure from ion imbalance in this particular case, but since it happened when the OP tackled it on the floor my money is on an anti-predator behavior i.e. death feigning. Does the frog seizure while it is in the tank not being bothered? If yes, I say ionic imbalance. If it only does it when you chase it across the house, i say death feigning. 

Seizures (from ion imbalance) usually involve some amount of twitching or uncoordinated movement. With death feigning they lay completely still with legs tucked in. Unless you can differentiate between death feigning and ion deficiency you may be unnecessarily dousing your frog in Calcium Glucose or whatever the cool new product is these days.

It seems that behaviorists are recently pushing new, more specific terminology for death feigning in frogs and it seems that the behavior that darts do is more accurately referred to as 'contracting' or 'shrinking' behavior (see Toledo et al. 2010), but is still a form of death feigning to me. 

Want to look into this more? Try googling "thanatosis AND frogs" or something similar. Thanatosis is the technical term and will probably yield better results. If you want some low-brow info try "Frogs playing possum"  

Here's a few to get you started:

Sergio Escobar-Lasso and A. González-Durana. (2012) Strategies employed by three Neotropical frogs (Amphibia: Anura) to avoid predation. Herpetology Notes. 5: 79-84

Toledo, L.F., Sazima, I., Haddad, C.F.B. (2010): Is it all death feigning? Case in anurans. J. Nat. Hist. 44: 31-32. 

Toledo, L.F., Sazima, I., Haddad, C.F.B. (2011): Behavioural defences of anurans: an overview. Ethol. Ecol. Evol. 23: 1-25.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

medusa said:


> It seems that behaviorists are recently pushing new, more specific terminology for death feigning in frogs and it seems that the behavior that darts do is more accurately referred to as 'contracting' or 'shrinking' behavior (see Toledo et al. 2010), but is still a form of death feigning to me.


I suppose that could be a contributing factor into why I've personally never read about it.

Thanks for the info. I'll check out those papers.

Edit: Call me a bonehead, but I don't see dendrobates mentioned in any of the three papers you listed.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

In the few cases I have witnessed, I would never have interpreted it as a conscious decision on the part of the frog. Most often it would "freeze" mid-jump with it's legs splayed out, always when they are startled or stressed. Poison frogs typically don't use this strategy to avoid predation. Not saying it isn't possible. Maybe the leg position would be the best clue as to whether it is defensive or an imbalance.

Previous discussion here.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/130793-frog-spasms.html


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## medusa (Oct 30, 2011)

Reef_Haven said:


> In the few cases I have witnessed, I would never have interpreted it as a conscious decision on the part of the frog. Most often it would "freeze" mid-jump with it's legs splayed out, always when they are startled or stressed. Poison frogs typically don't use this strategy to avoid predation. Not saying it isn't possible. Maybe the leg position would be the best clue as to whether it is defensive or an imbalance.


I don't think we can say thanatosis is a conscious response, rather more of a panic response where nerves override logical decisions. Im my experiences the frog will make its best effort to escape and hide motionless under something. When I pick it up it remains frozen, always with legs tucked in tight in an attempt to make itself as small as possible. I am sure this is an effective technique when hiding in a pile of leaf litter. 
Kevin I suspect you are right in using leg position as your best clue as to wether it is defensive or an imbalance. Some other frogs do freeze with legs outstretched, and maybe some dart frogs do as well. But whenever I have seen Dart Frogs freeze with legs outstretched I interpreted it as an imbalance. Twitching or uncoordinated movement are a dead giveaway.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A point to consider with the shrinking/contracting hypothesis is that the frogs that exhibit that response remain in that position when manipulated and if you attempt to move limbs etc they resist these manipulations. Additionally this behavior tends to have an arched back see the pictures in Sergio Escobar-Lasso and A. González-Durana. (2012) Strategies employed by three Neotropical frogs (Amphibia: Anura) to avoid predation. Herpetology Notes. 5: 79-84 which to my experience is not typical for these frogs. My experience with these frogs is that if you have one suddenly freeze they will again to flee if you just attempt to pick. 

One point to consider that hasn't been mentioned is that frogs tend to have low thresholds for anaerobic results of activity. If your chasing the frog around, it is possible that the freeze posture is due to crossing this threshold. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## medusa (Oct 30, 2011)

Ed said:


> One point to consider that hasn't been mentioned is that frogs tend to have low thresholds for anaerobic results of activity. If your chasing the frog around, it is possible that the freeze posture is due to crossing this threshold.
> 
> 
> Some comments
> ...


Yes, this could be true as well. But whether the behavior is induced neurologically or through anaerobic exhaustion (or tetany from lactic acid production) it is still a different situation than a chronic ion imbalance. One scenario requires a ride in the froggy ambulance and the other just requires a little rest and relaxation. My point is that is irresponsible to call the ambulance every time a frog freezes, as this forum has been prone to do.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

medusa said:


> Yes, this could be true as well. But whether the behavior is induced neurologically or through anaerobic exhaustion (or tetany from lactic acid production) it is still a different situation than a chronic ion imbalance. One scenario requires a ride in the froggy ambulance and the other just requires a little rest and relaxation. My point is that is irresponsible to call the ambulance every time a frog freezes, as this forum has been prone to do.


The problem is that you can't make the claim that death feigning occurs all the time in dendrobatids. It is wide spread in anurans but the supplied defined behaviors that describe thanatosis don't apply nor does the supplied description of contraction/shrinking. In your description can you exclude simple immobility as a predator defense as opposed to those behaviors under "tonic immobility"? This is a critical difference as what is observed could also be simple immobility? What if the frog was demonstrating hypocalcemia and the OP took your original response post to mean that it probably was nothing to worry about? 

As for the response to it being due to a calcium imbalance. What are the negatives to using calcium gluconate/glubionate solution as a precaution when combined with a review of the supplements in use? Do those negatives provide a greater risk to the frog than ignoring the potential condition? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## medusa (Oct 30, 2011)

Ed said:


> The problem is that you can't make the claim that death feigning occurs all the time in dendrobatids.


 I have, as others have, witnessed what I can best interpret as death feigning (perhaps for lack of a better term), most closely matching that of what is described as a contracting response due to an attempted predation event (i.e. grabbing at it as it tries to escape). In other words the frog appears dead e.g. motionless, when in fact it is still alive. I have observed this enough times, along with others, for me to consider it normal, common even.



Ed said:


> In your description can you exclude simple immobility as a predator defense as opposed to those behaviors under "tonic immobility"? This is a critical difference as what is observed could also be simple immobility?


It is not necessary for me to split hairs concerning the actual causal mechanism and treat "simple immobility and tonic immobility differently" as you suggest is "critical difference". To me this difference is not critical because it is all immobility elicited by what the frog perceives as an attack, regardless of the physiological basis. To me the frog looks dead, when in fact it is not. Therefore the appearance of death is fake. IOW death is feigned. What is important is to differentiate this paralysis vs chronic ion imbalance. Also, how would you define "simple" immobility?



Ed said:


> What if the frog was demonstrating hypocalcemia and the OP took your original response post to mean that it probably was nothing to worry about?


Was the frog demonstrating hypocalcemia? Would you use this argument to recommend that everyone dose their animals every time it froze? Again, since in this particular case the paralysis occurred due to an escape and capture event and the frog apparently recovered with no further issues, I would be fine with that. In fact, it is what I meant by original response. If there were other indicators like twitching, uncoordinated movement, or freezing without provocation hypocalcemia would then seem more probable.



Ed said:


> What are the negatives to using calcium gluconate/glubionate solution as a precaution when combined with a review of the supplements in use?


If those benign solutions are the only thing used probably not much, unless you consider the undue further stress of antagonizing an already stressed frog by trying to dose it unnecessarily. However, hobbyists have tried dosing more toxic substances (e.g. straight Vit D) in response to what they have been told is an ion imbalance, and there IS a negative to that. 
Also the undue stress to a beginner keeper who is already freaked out about their frog being unresponsive only to be further panicked by being told it is due to something mysterious and confusing (ion imbalance) is negative in my book. 

That is why I say it is irresponsible for this forum to tell everyone that observes paralysis every time that it is an emergency, when it may or may not be. 



Ed said:


> Do those negatives provide a greater risk to the frog than ignoring the potential condition?


Not ignoring the potential condition. Making a judgment call with available evidence as to how critical the situation is and how to best to proceed. Do you dose the frog or simply give it some quiet time. Whereas before there was only one acceptable answer (the sky is falling, your frog is dying), no other options, no feigning death. Are there negatives to being alarmist to beginner keepers?


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