# Size of Tank



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Hi guys. First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm Alex and I am new to this forum! So, now on to the question. What size tank would be good for 2 O. pumilio? 20 gallon tall or 30 gallon tall? Also, would I need tons of broms if I want to try and breed them? Thanks, I might have more questions in a little.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pumilio are awesome frogs! They are also, however, not the best beginners frog. I encourage you to get your feet wet with an easier frog first.

However, I'm going to give you my answer anyway. I know of someone who has bred pumilio in as small as a 15 gallon tank with a single brom. That doesn't mean that's ideal. I like a nice big viv with pumilio for multiple reasons. 
1) Pumilio seem to enjoy and use all the room you give them.
2) With a bigger viv you can put more broms in. With more broms, your pumilio may be able to raise quite a few young at one time. Whereas the gentleman I know who bred in small vivs with a single brom, only got one or two froglets per breeding.
3) A bigger viv will allow for more microfauna (springtails and Isopods) so that your young froglets will have food to forage.

So this leads me to say, do the 30 gallon with tons of broms. Don't forget a variety of other plants for cover and some broad leafed plants for alternative egg laying sites.

And I also have to back this up with the reminder that these are not the best choice of frogs if this is your first time. If it is the fascination with the parents raising and eggfeeding, you could consider Imitator frogs. Still not the best first choice, but if your research is done properly, Imitators can be a nice first frog.
Doug


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I agree with Doug. You should try an easier species first.

That being said, if you want to work with pumilio I'd say 40+ gallons. A 40 breeder vert would be fine, although they do seem to like floor space so you might want a 46 bowfront.

And yes. Load it with as many bromeliads as you can for the pumilio.


----------



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

I know I am not gonna get them, but would a 20 gallon long work for 2?


----------



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

On the care sheet, is says that they are advanced because they are hard to breed and they are agressive. Is this true? If I was only getting 2 in a 20 gallon, would they be agressive if it was a pair?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

No, not if you have one male, one female. Problem there is that pumilio are very hard to sex.
Doug


----------



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Could you post some picturs of your tanks?


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here's a not very good pic of my pumilio tank. It's a 20G high. Since taking this pic, I've added a few more broms.


----------



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Cool tank! If I use a 20 long and use some of the vertical space, would this be ok for a pair?


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Sounds fine to me. dreamcatcer98 made a beautiful 20L vert tank.

Here's a link to pics of 3 of her tanks
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/59657-my-3-vivs.html

And here are a couple build threads for her 20L
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/59413-20l-vert-some-planting.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/59180-started-20l-vert.html


eta: I mean sounds fine to me if you are getting arboreal thumbnails and turning it on end, which is what I assumed but just wanted to make sure. If you are leaving it horizontal, I wouldn't get climbers. But that's just me


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

ExoticPocket said:


> Cool tank! If I use a 20 long and use some of the vertical space, would this be ok for a pair?


If you are actually talking about turning the entire viv into a vertical viv then that is fine but if you mean just utilizing the vertical back background of a 20long in its normal horizontal configuration then no not really...Pums like to climb to much for that to be the way to go, not enough height. Truthfully it probably won't kill them but it definitely isn't ideal.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

My pumilio Solarte viv. 24" x 24" x 24" slope front puts it at about 50 gallons.
Doug


----------



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Pumilio-Nice tank. Is that a MistKing system at the top?
Dendro Dave- I was watching a video on youtube that had this guys dart frog room. He had a couple of egg-feeder tanks and they were all long tanks and he said they were all doing fine. Also, are there morphs that like horizantal space more than other morphs?


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

The idea that pumilio are primarily an arboreal species seems to be mythish. Those who provide usable ground space seem to find that they use both the ground and the vert space equally. That being said it seems like you should look for something that has plenty of space on the floor while having quite a bit of vertical space to utilize. Think... a 24x18x24 exo-terra or something.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

SmackoftheGods said:


> The idea that pumilio are primarily an arboreal species seems to be mythish. Those who provide usable ground space seem to find that they use both the ground and the vert space equally. That being said it seems like you should look for something that has plenty of space on the floor while having quite a bit of vertical space to utilize. Think... a 24x18x24 exo-terra or something.


I can get behind those statements...Basically since most tanks aren't over 2-3 feet tall we should probably go that way in most cases. Even terrestrial species are probably pretty likely to climb a foot or 2 in many cases. I think part of the vertical trend with thumbs/pums is due to the size of the frog...in a vert the ground to height ratio just seems more natural given the frogs size. Where as if I put a big ol tinc in there the tank might look tall enough, but not long or deep enough.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I was just thinking of my own 20G long. After putting in a false bottom and substrate, there just wasn't much vertical room at all. I had Sips in there and it seemed to low for them.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frogface said:


> I was just thinking of my own 20G long. After putting in a false bottom and substrate, there just wasn't much vertical room at all. I had Sips in there and it seemed to low for them.


I think a lot of our tanks probably are to low, even for terrestrial species...Probably isn't a huge deal, but I noticed in sports doc's video that his frogs seemed to really use the height of his tanks especially when the lights were well off the top of the tank. My guess is even in some of our taller tanks we limited the usable space, even for more ground dwelling frogs by having the lights so close.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ExoticPocket said:


> Pumilio-Nice tank. Is that a MistKing system at the top?


Thanks and yes, it is a MistKing quad. Probably really overkill for the size viv. I think a Mistking double would have been just fine. I am currently building an identical viv for a pair of Escudo but it will have a double. 



SmackoftheGods said:


> The idea that pumilio are primarily an arboreal species seems to be mythish. Those who provide usable ground space seem to find that they use both the ground and the vert space equally. That being said it seems like you should look for something that has plenty of space on the floor while having quite a bit of vertical space to utilize. Think... a 24x18x24 exo-terra or something.


Very nicely stated, Jake! I have lots of climbing space, lots of ground space. Lots of cover and hiding areas. I can ALWAYS see at least one of the pair of my Solarte and they explore, use, and enjoy EVERY inch of that 50 gallon viv.
Doug


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> I can get behind those statements...Basically since most tanks aren't over 2-3 feet tall we should probably go that way in most cases. Even terrestrial species are probably pretty likely to climb a foot or 2 in many cases. I think part of the vertical trend with thumbs/pums is due to the size of the frog...in a vert the ground to height ratio just seems more natural given the frogs size. Where as if I put a big ol tinc in there the tank might look tall enough, but not long or deep enough.


I can see where you're coming from. However, the size of the frog _shouldn't_ really be the issue. Imitators, obviously, are an arboreal species. So giving them plenty of vert space is a good way to go (my imitators only come to the bottom to feed on occasion, 95+% of the time they're mid way of the tank or higher). My benedicta, which are only a little larger than my imitators, spend at least fifty percent of their time in the leaf litter.... We should probably focus more on the natural tendencies of the frog rather than what we _think_ the frog should do based on what it looks like.

I won't say that you _need_ a large vivarium to breed pumilio. There is plenty of evidence that pumilio will successfully breed in smaller enclosures given that the enclosures are set up well. That being said, I think obligates are far more likely to need a large vivarium than many of the other frogs we work with. To me, if you're going to get into the obligates, you should probably be willing to give them the space they need to feel at home.

Also, I've never worked with a 20gallon long personally. But I've seen them used before. Personally, I wouldn't use 20 gallons in any configuration for pumilio unless it were necessary. But with the way a 20 long is configured I just can't say it should be used for any pumilio. As frogface mentioned horizontally, when you put the false bottom and substrate in there there will be minimal vert space (and almost no _usable_ vert space for pumilio). If you orient it as a vert the floor space will be close to non-existant. While 20 longs are great for some species (I'm thinking specifically of tinctorius kept in pairs), I can't recommend one be used for pumilio.


----------



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Just in case you want to watch the vid. On youtube, search "frog room" and then go to the one that is by rmelancon1. I am pretty sure he has 2 tanks with egg-feeders in them. I do agree with your statements that i should go with a vertical tank, but if I had a GS or clay background with tons of broms and other plants, would this work. How much space do they need to clime?


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I can see where you're coming from. However, the size of the frog _shouldn't_ really be the issue. Imitators, obviously, are an arboreal species. So giving them plenty of vert space is a good way to go (my imitators only come to the bottom to feed on occasion, 95+% of the time they're mid way of the tank or higher). My benedicta, which are only a little larger than my imitators, spend at least fifty percent of their time in the leaf litter.... We should probably focus more on the natural tendencies of the frog rather than what we _think_ the frog should do based on what it looks like.
> 
> I won't say that you _need_ a large vivarium to breed pumilio. There is plenty of evidence that pumilio will successfully breed in smaller enclosures given that the enclosures are set up well. That being said, I think obligates are far more likely to need a large vivarium than many of the other frogs we work with. To me, if you're going to get into the obligates, you should probably be willing to give them the space they need to feel at home.
> 
> Also, I've never worked with a 20gallon long personally. But I've seen them used before. Personally, I wouldn't use 20 gallons in any configuration for pumilio unless it were necessary. But with the way a 20 long is configured I just can't say it should be used for any pumilio. As frogface mentioned horizontally, when you put the false bottom and substrate in there there will be minimal vert space (and almost no _usable_ vert space for pumilio). If you orient it as a vert the floor space will be close to non-existant. While 20 longs are great for some species (I'm thinking specifically of tinctorius kept in pairs), I can't recommend one be used for pumilio.


No, I agree with what you're saying...I was just saying that the perception probably accounts a lot for the tendencies. In fact I would even admit to being guilty of it in my earlier years. Now that I'm more experienced when I get back into thumbs/pums I will take each frog on an individual basis when I design and choose their enclosure.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

ExoticPocket said:


> Just in case you want to watch the vid. On youtube, search "frog room" and then go to the one that is by rmelancon1. I am pretty sure he has 2 tanks with egg-feeders in them. I do agree with your statements that i should go with a vertical tank, but if I had a GS or clay background with tons of broms and other plants, would this work. How much space do they need to clime?


GS background, tons of broms, this would work if you have the right tank. But as stated, it's also good to provide ground space.

In response to how much space they need to climb: as much space as you can give them (ideally without limiting the amount of ground space and leaf litter they have available to them).


----------



## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

My tank has a lot of ground space, like a little over 30 inches. The vertical space is about 12 to 13 inches. Is this enough vertical space? Also, are there morphs that spend more time on the ground?


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I don't think a 20 gallon long oriented horizontally would work well because there is not enough height. My pumilio do not seem to go up to the very top of their tank a lot, but they will venture to all parts while spending about 80% of their time in the low/ mid level- say about 4-8" off the ground. 
The problem with a 20 long is that there really will not be 12 inches of vertical space after planting and all. You will probably want some sort of drainage, definitely some sort of substrate, and you should use as much leaf litter as possible with pumilio. When all is said and done, I think you would have less than 10 inches, possibly closer to 8". Then factor in mounting the broms an inch or two away from the substrate, and I just can't picture fitting enough broms in without running out of space. If you want a 20 gallon tank, I would recommend a 20 gallon high (I think it's like 24x17x12) over a 20 long.
Bryan


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

ExoticPocket said:


> My tank has a lot of ground space, like a little over 30 inches. The vertical space is about 12 to 13 inches. Is this enough vertical space? Also, are there morphs that spend more time on the ground?


In regards to your vertical space refer to the post above.

30 inches of floor space isn't really saying much because it should be measured in square inches. You might have 30 inches one way, but if you only have one inch in another direction then it's not going to do you much good.

Anyway, I suspect that you've got a little under 30 inches floor space in one direction and around twelve inches in another direction. That would be fine for floor space. However (IMO) you need to double the vert space you've provided.


----------

