# Making a clay background



## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

I have been reading up on this for some time. From what ican understand to make aclay background you get 100% natural clay cat litter sit in a bucket of water, mix in some soil and spagnum moss to get colour and hold it together. Press this onto the background and keep it wet.

If i keep it wet will it not deteriorate from misting.
Can i keep a waterfall over it if i cover it with coco and peat .

Im trying new techniques for this tank and am looking at putting a 20wat led flood light over tank is this too much or too little.

Thanks for your help ?????


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Kitty litter is Sodium Bentonite. Sodium Bentonite is the most unstable form of clay available. Even pure Sodium Bentonite is not used by Potters, as a true clay, but rather as a glaze. Sodium Bentonite swells and contracts, with moisture, more than any other clay. This makes it highly unstable. Here in Colorado, Bentonite in the soil has caused hundreds of millions of dollars in basement damages. It actually swells enough to crack the concrete walls, kind of like starting to crush an aluminum can.

It IS possible to create a lasting bentonite wall. I don't remember who, but I have talked with 2 DB members with lasting, kitty litter, walls. I have also talked with dozens of people who have experienced catastrophic failures of their kitty litter walls, including at least one person with a frog buried alive. Kitty litter may be possible, but it will not be easy. Chances of failure are very high.
Even with proper clays, clay walls have a high rate of failure. 
If you have to do it, research it well, drop the waterfall idea (no way that can work with bentonite), and let your cats continue to use your kitty litter for what it is best used for.

My best clay wall recipe is somewhere in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/78189-not-another-pumilo-build.html

I know that's not what you were hoping to hear, but I hate to hear about frogs dying, when it could have been prevented.

ps By the way, you are an imposter...my son, Max, is the REAL Frogboy!


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## baskis (Jun 7, 2015)

Pumilo said:


> ps By the way, you are an imposter...my son, Max, is the REAL Frogboy!


Did a double take after i saw the usernames, wondering why you couldnt just have this conversation in person


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Doug...one of the people you refer to is Ed....he has had a long-term clay background that has become stable...but it took quite a while...perhaps the OP should seek that thread out to read the backstory...Frogboy...a name we have not heard in quite a while...did he give them up???


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I did a clay wall...and it did work for quite a while...but eventually it did fail...and only some of the plants really liked it....there are other background things that work a lot better...may take a bit more time...but even the plain "cracked cork" method is a whole lot easier in the long run....trust me....


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Judy S said:


> Doug...one of the people you refer to is Ed....he has had a long-term clay background that has become stable...but it took quite a while...perhaps the OP should seek that thread out to read the backstory...Frogboy...a name we have not heard in quite a while...did he give them up???


Oh I do remember Ed's work with clay, and his bio film method. The 2 long term walls I'm talking about, were kitty litter walls. I'm fairly sure that Ed's wall was not made of kitty litter. Ed has spoken more than once about the problems with choosing kitty litter for your clay. Here is an Ed qoute from another thread.


Ed said:


> Kitty litter is problematic since
> 1) there are wide ranges of mixes of clays in litters resulting is inconsistent results
> 2) it contains bentonite mixes that are designed to swell when in contact with water (which means that as the exterior material overhydrates and slowly transfers this condition to the interior, it swells resulting in destabilization of the background). Very thick backgrounds using kitty litter can destabilize as the interior continues to absorb water and swelling which then can push parts out of place resulting in destabilization and collapse of the background.
> 3) Powdered clays have problems because there isn't any structure to hold them together and this is more difficult when using only bentonite mixes.
> ...


Oh, and yes, Frogboy has given up on everything but video games.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Here is what I'm looking for. Ed's wall was not kitty litter.



Ed said:


> I have not nor do I intend to ever use kitty litter but if you search all of the threads about kittly litter you would see that there is a wide variation in success both between and within brands due to either differences in thier manufacturing process or thier materials.
> 
> Ed


It's not that I just have to prove you wrong, Judy, but if we say that Ed does it...then it must be all right.

I believe one of the two walls I am thinking of, was built by Kris, (FrogFace).
I believe the other person with long term, kitty litter, backgrounds, was NathanB. I'd be interested to know if either of those are still up and considered successful. To the best of my knowledge, neither Kris, nor NathanB, had a water feature running over kitty litter.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

With Doug and Judy chiming in, my response will probably go unnoticed...However, for the OP or anybody else looking for a clay-style background that provides decent growth, I recommend this stuff. I've had mine for a little over a year, and it's holding up masterfully. It grows plants pretty well (except for the ones that require a wood substrate). So far, every Peperomia I've tried on it does well, as does Alsobia dianthiflora, some Selaginella, C. microphylla, Begonia burkillii, and Ficus sp. "Panama". I imagine most terrestrial plants would do well on it. Java moss, Christmas moss, and live sphagnum have been said to like it as well; I've also had success with small bits of Chuck's (Manuran's) low-growing moss on it.

The pH is around 6.5 (as opposed to kitty litter), and the creator assured me that it's safe for frogs (I can vouch for this; my thumbnails love it).

Most of all, it's ridiculously easy to install--no clay mixing necessary.

STEP BY STEP – Living Background

It's also available on eBay: Living Background Terrarium Clay vivarium sculpting material dart frog insects | eBay

Finally, here is another thread discussing it. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/229618-living-background-terrarium-mud-ebay.html


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

hey thanks everyone for your input, i may think twice about using the clay now haha . i may try it it on a smaller only plant tank, with no water feature. Australia makes it diffiecult with the lack of options . i only have one question now if you guys know 

1) can i use a 20w SMD LED Flood Light Outdoor Lamp Spotlight AC 220V-240V IP65 AU Plug cuse i need something to grow creeping jenny on the bottom of the tanks its 24" deep.

thanks again for all help


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Clay can be used as the background but you have to be able to account for both moisture exposure and how the clay reacts to moisture. If your using a bentonite based clay that swells, you cannot use a thick layer as noted above, it has to be a thin layer and it has to have consistent moisture until it becomes stabilized by the growth of mosses and other organisms. As I noted in the old posts, it took three months to obtain a stable background (and this was without any disturbances/animals) in the enclosure but once it was done and stable it was pretty hardy. 

You may also want to include some materials such as orchid fiber, cork or even stones siliconed to the back of the enclosure to supply extra support to the background. 

some comments 

Ed


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

ok so i can do clay but in a thin layer, i am thinking of making little lips to grow a variety of ferns in the background it will be planted and ill try to get moss on it.  

when youy say stones and bark and the rest, do you mean add stones in and bark in or add in bark and silicone stones to the background for more grip


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

also Ed the clay that i am loking at says its made from 100% Attapulgite mined in western australia


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogboy99 said:


> ok so i can do clay but in a thin layer, i am thinking of making little lips to grow a variety of ferns in the background it will be planted and ill try to get moss on it.
> 
> when youy say stones and bark and the rest, do you mean add stones in and bark in or add in bark and silicone stones to the background for more grip


You may have significant issues getting those lips to be stable particularly over time and while it is basically a non-swelling clay if you end up housing animals in the enclosure your not going to be able to use any supplements that contain citrate as this can result in toxicity to the clay. 

Are you willing to wait for the 2-3 months it can take before it is stable enough that you can plant it? Thin clay backgrounds are not tolerant of messing with them until they have stabilized and you have to keep the moisture levels steady until this has occurred. 

I'm not referring to mixing those items into the clay but to actually silicone them to the back of the wall as that will provide additionally support. 

some comments 

Ed


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

I am actually planning just tokeep it planted now with no frogs or anything It makes things easier. So when you say it does not swell are you talking about that other clay i mentioned and what can i do with the citrate now there no frogs in it? 

Thanks ed you are the biggest help


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are clays that can swell considerably (up to 10 X) their volume on exposure to water and they are commonly used in clay kitty litters as it makes them clump and hold in odors. Now with the clay you mentioned that was for it unmodified, it is also common to utilize clays that have had some form of ion exchange as this can modify how the clay functions. An example of this is calcium exchanged sodium bentonite which can swell faster and more than either plain sodium or calcium bentonite as a result you need to determine if the clay is modified or not. 

You don't need to do anything with citrate if you never place animals in it. 

some comments 

Ed


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

im sorry for keeping you on here ed but this is alot to get my head around hahaha i will try to contact the manafacturers and give you a heads up. now when you say stabalise i am unsure what you mean by that and why it takes so long. is it just until the clay is fuly expanded.

thanks for all of your help iit is very much appreciated


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

FB99...Ed and Pumilo are excited when they get new questions...seriously...they love to educate when someone shows a clear interest and sincere effort to actually learn...and pose questions that can benefit others...none of us is born with any of this info...and the fact that you asked a very reasonable question deserves a well explained answer so that not only you...but the rest of us as well...can benefit. I did a clay background and now understand just why it did not work...There are a lot of "grey beards" on DB that do not post often...but revert to "lurking"---trust me...they are there....


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

haha thanks Judy S. seeing this is my hobby and i hope to carry this on after uni(meaning limited tanks for 4 years  ) i always love to ask questions to learn more and more. this means that i can actually help other people when they need help instead of learking. i love how you said greybeards because kind of sounds like a quest that you have to post the right question in the rigt forum area and theyll magically appear hahahah


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

now that smacks of diss........okay, I got it....but if you look through the list of members, you can see who has tons of posts..they are the ones who have been on DB so long and have so much info into this obsession...you can click on their names and go to their posts to find things that will blow your mind...you just cannot find all this stuff any other place...please, please people who may read this ONE post...look this stuff up.......experience beats books...


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

hi ed, 

so i went onto their website and found this 

"The high sorbent quality comes from its compound structure known as hydrated magnesium aluminium silicate, a unique 3-layer strips, joined at the corners (see diagram below). This allows the large invisible surface to absorb and lock in large amounts of liquids and odours."
​
i am still waiting for a reply from the company but this may help you


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Judy S said:


> ...There are a lot of "grey beards"...


Silver, Judy, thank you very much.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogboy99 said:


> hi ed,
> 
> so i went onto their website and found this
> 
> ...


This sounds like it will swell which is not what you want for a background. The reason people use clay in their enclosures is because it fosters a high productivity zone where the mineralized (clay) substrate comes into contact with the leaf litter and other organics. At this juncture you get a zone that is better able to support microfauna like springtails and isopods. Now people went after clay backgrounds as it seemed to be an easier quick alternative to traditional backgrounds where the materials were constructed via one of several methods such as the "flevapol" method or the great stuff backgrounds or even sculpted out of plaster or other materials. Check out this way for an alternative method http://www.dendrobatidae.org/Portals/0/activeforums_Attach/1424223459371.pdf 

Unfortunately for most it is not a method really suitable for a fast background and this is where a lot of people have failed with the process. I'm pretty sure the only reason I succeeded with my trials was because I was willing to wait literally months before I messed with it at all. 

As a simple alternative you might be better off simply using tree fern panels or even the cork wall method where you fit pieces of cork together to make a background where the inbetween areas are packed with sphagnum as a growing substrate. 

some comments 

Ed 

PS. I readily admit I've turned fairly grey.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

ahhhh.....silver is such a lovely color....


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

hahaha that it is.

ok well, i have just had another amazing and better idea for the vivarium. im gonna make a pvc and expanda foam tree stump and put plants in it by putting soil and drainage in the pvc branches themselves and make that the focal ppoint of the tank. im gonna cover up one sidwall and the back, but the background will be made from a that plastic cardborad stuff, i will try to make theem into thin boxes that cover the whole back and side wall. i will cut squares out of the front of the box and glue geotextile fabric over it and leave aspace for the plant to growout of. i will then fill the box with a growing medium with drainage layer at the bottom so it is like a vivarium bottom except vertical. i wont have a drip wall as misting and humidity will keep background moist and i will cover the boxes with polysyrene bumps for texture, cover it in silicone and put peat moss on it. ill try to draw it up and show you.

thoughts 

thanks Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

sounds like a plan! Remember, however, that the organics will break down over time regardless whether they are in the PVC..or in a cork hollow log--so may have to be replenished at some point ...if they are what the plants are depending on for their nutrients and "soil"...Broms do not need the same things as other plants such as ferns--but not all frogs need or want broms...and you may have better choices to go with the frogs you choose...Take pics and keep us posted...we all love builds--if I had the time to read how to post pics, would....but then I wouldn't be able to find the time to dust....


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

yeah im just decking it out in the tank to make it easy and low maintenance. i am making it look like a slice of the jungle with what i have and as i am aware will be the only one of its kind in my desert town. after its construction i am looking at selling it to aid in my uni fund and making more tanks  i should have no problems selling it as people will swoop in because its different. all i need to do is get everything together and start construction. i am luck im a red head i dont grey as easily, 17 years old and proud


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## mac2284 (May 30, 2015)

I can second on the living background clay bought from ebay. op, its pretty cheap and i have had mine in my terrarium for over a year now. moss seems to grow on it faster than my cocoa fibre and greatstuff background. I personally plant to rebuy some more soo here.


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

cool thanks for the info will keep it in mind . im in aussie though so shipping will be killer


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## Lisaxaphona (Nov 2, 2016)

You can make clay sculptures using flour and oil, then you bake it. I doubt it would be very good for a background, but maybe?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/sho...ealistic-quot-Hides&highlight=home+made+hides


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

this is a bloody fantastic idea. i may even be able to use it to put texture for my pvc branches an seal with silicone and peat coco fibre mix


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## Lisaxaphona (Nov 2, 2016)

frogboy99 said:


> this is a bloody fantastic idea. i may even be able to use it to put texture for my pvc branches an seal with silicone and peat coco fibre mix


That's a great idea. I was thinking it may not hold up as an [entire] background, but slather on some silicone or drylok for pvc and smaller applications, it could work. Definitely keep us updated if you try it. I'm really interested how well it works. Should be MUCH easier and cleaner to work with than foam.

On that note, if you find a nice rock or tree branch, you could use the technique on that website by wrapping it around objects and making molds you could later fill with epoxy or expanding foam. Heck, you could even buy driftwood and fancy Zoo Med reptile decorations and bowls and make nearly exact replicas. I think I'm going to try it! $$$$$


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

great minds think alike hey. im gonna try and make a mangrove root system with plants planted in the pvc tubes hopes it works. may be a while though as i have schoolies and no money hahaha


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

This is just a sketch of layout .
The branches with lines will have soil and drainage linking to drainage layer. Well thats the plan anyway


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

also if the branches and backround arent submerged but only misted or splashed by water drops from waterfall. will cromlins ornamental sealer work good enough


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## Lisaxaphona (Nov 2, 2016)

I just found this post that talks a little bit about using clay for backgrounds.
Most of the info is on the page I am linking (page 3) using Redart clay. Someone also posted a link on the page referencing another users build using clay.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...nes.html#/forumsite/20539/topics/49798?page=3


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

cool cool thanks very much. lmost redy to get started so will update soon


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## calebrez (Dec 9, 2009)

Clay backgrounds can be a very good background for plant growth and all the little critters as well. I currently have a clay background in my pdf tank and it has been up and running for over 2 years with no problems. There are a few things to help with keeping it safe for your frogs. 1. Secure wood ( Cork bark tubes work great for this) to your glass and use multiples. This creates anchor points that help to reinforce the clay. 2. You have to get the mixture right. To much water in the mix and it will not be sticky enough to stick to the glass. same with if its to dry. and 3. make sure you keep the clay moist! I cannot stress this enough! In one of my earlier test tanks i had not kept the tank moist enough and the clay broke away from the glass. lost 3 baby red eyes in the process. If the clay dries out it can be very difficult to get back to the proper saturation level. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask! Hope this helps!


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## frogboy99 (Feb 1, 2016)

thanks for the advise but plans have changed, im just gonna use expana foam and pvc with silicon and peat covering


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