# How many types or morphs of P. terribilis



## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

Back in the dark ages I was lucky enough to be one of the first people in the U.S. to keep and breed P. terribilis. Things have come full circle and I'm exploring the idea of setting up a tank of P. terribilis. How many types of P. terribilis are available in the hobby? I thought the answer was 3. Way back when we had mint, orange, and gold. Some called the gold ones bicolor and their was a big deal of confusion about them. I kept and bred mint and bicolor that might have been gold.

Are any of the gold or orange P. terribilis as large as the mint terribilis. How many types of P terribilis are currently in the U.S.? Are the lines generally pure or all mixed up?
Thanks


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

From what I know we have the mint , orange, and yellow/gold terribilis, and then you have gold bicolor, green legged bicolors, and the black legged bicolors with green specs (the typical bicolor, however bicolor and terribilis are considered two different species. Besides the fact that terribilis are nearly twice the size of bicolors they look identical


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Mike,

There are yellow, orange, and mint here now. There are also some newer morphs in Europe like the giant lime from La Brea which is the same local as the mints, and the Quebtada Guanqui which looks yellow with white legs.

I know there are a few differant importations of the orange terribilis that came in to the US and they for the most part have been mixed in together. Darren Meyer has an original group.

The gold terribilis were actually DNA tested and they are indeed bicolor, these frogs fall in between terribilis and bicolor in size. I think Thomas V. originally brought them in. I currently keep this line and a yellow line that I got from John G. years back.

They are a lot louder than salamanders at 5 am.
Thanks
Eric


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks for that info on P. bicolor, Eric. I have an adult group that I obtained from a fellow at the Houston Zoo that were CB 04/05 that are bright gold and much larger than other bicolor I have seen but are clearly not terribs. For example, see below. The bicolor males are just a little smaller than my 16-18 month old male mint terribs and bright gold.


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

Here's a picture of my old P. terribilis tank. It's full of P. waltl right now. When we refinish our floors and paint the room it is probably going back to a frog tank. I'll also have to heat the tank because my temps get set back quite a bit more than when I had a house full of frogs.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Interesting can of worms Eric has opened. Is this then a bicolor and not a yellow terribilis? This is one of Shawn Harrington's frogs.


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

Years ago I was breeding P. bicolor that I got from Marcus Breece. He told me they were the same line others were breeding and calling P. terribilis. Their was some confusion over that line and apparently their still is. I always just went with what Marcus told me and sold them as P. bicolor.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Yellow terribs (such as the ones Shawn is breeding) are P. terribilis, not P. bicolor. In the past, there were 'gold terribilis', that were actually bicolors. Yellow terribilis and what were called Gold terribilis are two completely different frogs.


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

I think the ones Shawn has listed as gold Phyllobates spp. are the ones that are bicolor that used to be sold as terribilis and bicolor. Shawn doesn't call them either on his site and kind leaves it up in the air.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I guess I should mention that the Shawn I was referring to was Shawn Harrington.


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

zBrinks said:


> I guess I should mention that the Shawn I was referring to was Shawn Harrington.


I should have paid attention. The Shawn I was referring to was Dr. Stewart. He has a lot of terribilis on his site.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Sean Stewart spells his Sean differently to Shawn Harrington.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I hear you, I should have been more clear to begin with. The gold bicolors are very cool frogs, indeed.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Michael Shrom said:


> I think the ones Shawn has listed as gold Phyllobates spp. are the ones that are bicolor that used to be sold as terribilis and bicolor. Shawn doesn't call them either on his site and kind leaves it up in the air.


Sean Stewart you mean 

My frogs are from Rich Frye.....which are the same 'yellow' terribs that Marcus has. 

They are indeed yellow, and slightly smaller then I've seem some adult orange or mint terribs but that can obviously change with growing conditions/inbreeding/'lines' so I can't generalize that 'fact'. 

Either way Mike.....you've got to have a tank full of terribs soon man...

Sincerely,

Dr Harrington

young male









3 yr old male









notice the 'terribilis' head size


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

My bicolor group from years ago.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Back legs on Bicolor many times are much smoother than the warty granulated skin of Terribilis. Back in the day there was the first importation of Orange Terribilis that lived, big ole tangerines that came through the Boa Barn brought in by Paul Miles and Ron Gagliardo, these were very popular. The 2nd time Ron went to Europe to acquire another large group of CB offspring, he ended up at a German lady's house that had 3 morphs, Mint, Yellow and Orange, but these orange had green legs. The lady swore these were Terribilis and they were originally sold as such, however later testing proved them to be Bicolor. Sean Stewart had bought several and his breedings sold them with this background story, originally sold as Terribilis but now in question etc. Bill Samples also sold this morph shortly thereafter, selling them as Terribilis but they were the same Bicolor, pretty sure everyone was made aware thy were Bicolor.
Then there was Jarrod Wolfe, who imported a gold Bicolor also sold as Terribilis from a breeder in Canada. Supposedly an old line of Terribilis, mostly solid gold but to anyone who recieved this frog it was pretty obvious they were Bicolor. Many were solid gold in color and very nice, I was not sure if they were still floating around, it's nice to see that they are. 
The 3 morphs currently available here and to my knowledge completely clean are the Yellow, Orange and Mint. There is another story to the Yellows as they were originally imported as Orange. Good luck getting back into darts Mike.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ve heard there are 2 morphs of yellow terribilis. There is a metallic paler yellow and the Rich Frye line yellow. When I brought in the orange terribilis there were some in the group that were yellow striped instead of ornge. He got the yellow ones which grew larger and didn`t get orange. I think this "line" with Dave Kerling went extinct in the us. I know he sold a bunch of offspring but I never saw them after he lost his collection.
I`m always looking for more morphs of terribilis. 
I believe all the mints in the country came from one breeding group. The yellows, I think, all came from one pair. The oranges came from 2 different imports and 2 different pairs, possibly related? Either way i don`t think there is much genetic diversity to choose from. I`m currently breeding Marcus line and Joe Nickerson "LIne" orange terribilis



markpulawski said:


> Back legs on Bicolor many times are much smoother than the warty granulated skin of Terribilis. Back in the day there was the first importation of Orange Terribilis that lived, big ole tangerines that came through the Boa Barn brought in by Paul Miles and Ron Gagliardo, these were very popular. The 2nd time Ron went to Europe to acquire another large group of CB offspring, he ended up at a German lady's house that had 3 morphs, Mint, Yellow and Orange, but these orange had green legs. The lady swore these were Terribilis and they were originally sold as such, however later testing proved them to be Bicolor. Sean Stewart had bought several and his breedings sold them with this background story, originally sold as Terribilis but now in question etc. Bill Samples also sold this morph shortly thereafter, selling them as Terribilis but they were the same Bicolor, pretty sure everyone was made aware thy were Bicolor.
> Then there was Jarrod Wolfe, who imported a gold Bicolor also sold as Terribilis from a breeder in Canada. Supposedly an old line of Terribilis, mostly solid gold but to anyone who recieved this frog it was pretty obvious they were Bicolor. Many were solid gold in color and very nice, I was not sure if they were still floating around, it's nice to see that they are.
> The 3 morphs currently available here and to my knowledge completely clean are the Yellow, Orange and Mint. There is another story to the Yellows as they were originally imported as Orange. Good luck getting back into darts Mike.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

The Yellow, I orginally got from Reptilia in Vancouver around '02, tainted with Chytrid, i treated them and 6 out 8 survived. I raised them as Orange and then sold them to Derek Rader who in turn sold them to Marcus Breece. When Marcus got them, having true Oranges in his collection he immediatly realized they were different, smaller with a different call. Good thing as that kept them pure as a line. I am not aware of other yellow line but after my 2 big importations i stayed out of it, so others may have come in I am not aware of. Aaron you are right, the Mints all orginated with 1 group from Berlin, multiple WC adults. The Oranges i don't know about.


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Thanks for chiming in Mark, I think Thomas did get those "gold terribilis" from Ron G, and he sold them to Marcus Breece.

Marcus used to sell lots of frogs to Bill Weirtz up in the Ohio area back around the early 2000's. Bill used to travel and do reptile shows in a few states up there so a lot of the frogs in that area would probably be from Marcus indirectly. Including yellow and orange terribilis, and the gold bicolor.

This is a shot of the yellow bicolor group.
Eric


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

EricM said:


> Thanks for chiming in Mark, I think Thomas did get those "gold terribilis" from Ron G, and he sold them to Marcus Breece.
> 
> Marcus used to sell lots of frogs to Bill Weirtz up in the Ohio area back around the early 2000's. Bill used to travel and do reptile shows in a few states up there so a lot of the frogs in that area would probably be from Marcus indirectly. Including yellow and orange terribilis, and the gold bicolor.
> 
> ...



Eric 

Is that a shot of one of yours. If so they ahve an amazing pattern on the sides.


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

George,

Yes that is one of the males of a 2.2 group, these are the yellow ones I got from John Gibeau when he got out of frogs. I don't remember where they originated from.

here is another shot of some of the group.

thanks
Eric


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

If, I'm correct I think there may be 4 morphs of terribilis. I think the orange morph is actually two seperate morphs, one golden and one pumpkin orange.

Herpetologic.net 

Check under currently available for the frogs and they shold have some pics. I even heard rumor of a 'chocolate' morph in Columbia, maybe new species/morph or maybe doesn't exist at all.


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

Scratch that, one those morphs is unknown if it is a bicolor or terribilis.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

markpulawski said:


> The Yellow, I orginally got from Reptilia in Vancouver around '02, tainted with Chytrid, i treated them and 6 out 8 survived. I raised them as Orange and then sold them to Derek Rader who in turn sold them to Marcus Breece. When Marcus got them, having true Oranges in his collection he immediatly realized they were different, smaller with a different call. Good thing as that kept them pure as a line. I am not aware of other yellow line but after my 2 big importations i stayed out of it, so others may have come in I am not aware of. Aaron you are right, the Mints all orginated with 1 group from Berlin, multiple WC adults. The Oranges i don't know about.


Don't forget about Rod Mitchell's terribilis that were really bicolor from the lady who lived at the gas station. I went with him that day to the Lufthansa air cargo terminal at O'Hare. Talk about disappointment when we started opening they boxes for the customs guys.

Pretty sure Patrick Nabors is still working with those.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

kingnicky101 said:


> If, I'm correct I think there may be 4 morphs of terribilis. I think the orange morph is actually two seperate morphs, one golden and one pumpkin orange.
> 
> Herpetologic.net
> 
> Check under currently available for the frogs and they shold have some pics. I even heard rumor of a 'chocolate' morph in Columbia, maybe new species/morph or maybe doesn't exist at all.





kingnicky101 said:


> Scratch that, one those morphs is unknown if it is a bicolor or terribilis.


What are you talking about?


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Catfur said:


> What are you talking about?



He is talking about on this page http://www.herpetologic.net/frogs/availability.html he thought there were 4 morphs of terriblis, but on closer inspection one of them is listed as

The Golden Poison Frog
Phyllobates ssp
Gold morph
Colombia

so it's not clear if it's terribilis or bicolor.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Aurotaenia said:


> Don't forget about Rod Mitchell's terribilis that were really bicolor from the lady who lived at the gas station. I went with him that day to the Lufthansa air cargo terminal at O'Hare. Talk about disappointment when we started opening they boxes for the customs guys.
> 
> Pretty sure Patrick Nabors is still working with those.


Yes this is the same person Ron G got his frogs from I were referring to in my previous post, and the same ones nicky is referring to in his comments about Sean Stewart (unless the gold ones were the Jarrod Wolfe frogs). Along with Rod Mitchell this same frog was also brought in by Bill Samples and sold as orange Terribilis (As a side note when I heard Bill's frogs had green legs I got on the phone and told a few people, it got back to Bill and from that point on he referred to me as "the person who ruined his business").
So in essence there were 2 frogs brought in as Terribilis but were actually Bicolor, orange from the gas station lady in Germany and gold ones from Canada and Jarrod. Both morphs people originally claimed were Terribilis when they sold them based on their much larger investment $ wise. I don't think anyone confuses them with Terribilis these days as it was pretty quickly determined they were Bicolor and have been kept that way since.
Any other frogs brought into the US being a new terribilis morph would have caused a pretty big stir and this has not happened. I have heard of the Giant Morph in Europe and would imagine there could be 1 or 2 others we have not seen but since Colombia does not allow any exports it would make it more challenging for them to show up in the hobby...challenging but far from impossible.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

EricM said:


> George,
> 
> Yes that is one of the males of a 2.2 group, these are the yellow ones I got from John Gibeau when he got out of frogs. I don't remember where they originated from.
> 
> ...


Eric

Thanks for the update.


Nick

Is this the supposed chocalate terribilis you are thinking of.

FOXNews.com - Scientists Discover Poisonous 'Golden Frog' in Colombia - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't know what it's supposed to even look like. lol. I heard it was completely brown all over.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

kingnicky101 said:


> I don't know what it's supposed to even look like. lol. I heard it was completely brown all over.


This is the only known new discovery I've heard of in the last few years of any frog that would look like a terribilis, there have been other discoveries of posoin darts in columbia but not in the phyllobates genus.

I would assume if you hadn't seen it that this could have been the frog.


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

Wait, I remember posting this: NATURE's WINDOW original launch


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

markpulawski said:


> (As a side note when I heard Bill's frogs had green legs I got on the phone and told a few people, it got back to Bill and from that point on he referred to me as "the person who ruined his business").


I didn't know that was a real person he was referring to. I just thought it was paranoia, illegal frogs and disease he was referring to.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

kingnicky101 said:


> Wait, I remember posting this: NATURE's WINDOW original launch


This one?









I'd bet that's a bicolor based on the leg granulation. Mustard yellow/brown terribilis and bicolor can be created by a poor diet as a tadpole. There was a guy in Metarie, LA who used to sell tons of them.

This is probably from the line that Mark was talking about coming from Germany.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

for what its worth , a fellow canadian imported groups of yelow and mint terris from sweden when he moved to bc canada in the early 80s. no ideas on the orgins of these lines but quite a few offspring were produced and both lines are still out here in a few peoples hands.because of our local bans on terris and bi most wont post about them.
craig


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

That frog is Ranitomeya opisthomelas from page 456 in Poison Frogs.


ggazonas said:


> Eric
> 
> Thanks for the update.
> 
> ...


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

frogmanroth said:


> That frog is Ranitomeya opisthomelas from page 456 in Poison Frogs.


Opisto's had been discovered long before, this was a new species they found in a new preserve. I beleive Opisto's are mostly reddish and black.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

frogmanroth said:


> That frog is Ranitomeya opisthomelas from page 456 in Poison Frogs.


According to the article its supossedly a terribils/bicolor, if its possible can you scan page 456, I'm curious to see what it looks like.

I did find a bad image of the frog you were referring to but I don't see how a frog they beleive is a phyllobate looks anything like a thumb.


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