# Tinctorus with injured foot, rot?



## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Hi guys, my husband and I are new dart frog parents and one of our wee froglets has developed what I think is foot rot, seemingly overnight. Photo and video below, frog's left.












http://imgur.com/rqgwYD6


We have sphagnum moss + not enough leaf litter on the bottom of an old-school converted aquarium tank, and also made the mistake of misting too aggressively as it's been very uncommonly dry and hot where we live. So totally our fault and we feel awful. I've been all over here and reddit and we're rectifying the substrate/moisture/ventilation situation in the tank for the other froglets ASAP. 

I think it's rot given the conditions in the tank, but obviously, I'm a novice. His poor little fingers look stuck together and he's holding his leg tucked in close to his body. We thought at first he was injured and that his foot was completely missing, but then we saw the toes stuck together. I had also read about dislocated shoulders, but the injured foot looks dark and discolored, and then I saw the toes on his back leg were a little stuck together too. 

Sick froglet is isolated in a container with moistened paper towels and a big dry pottery shard to climb on. we gave him some bugs to eat but he's most hiding under a leaf and sleeping. His back foot I think looks a bit better, but the front one doesn't look great and he's not hopping on it. I read about people using neosporin/silver sulfadiazine but it's hard to get stuff like that over the counter where we live and I'm worried about additives. Have located an exotic vet but they're closed for the next few hours.

Really keen for any advice or nuggets of wisdom. Thanks in advance.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Copy pasting the questions found here: Read before posting! Fill this out to help troubleshoot... and answering them will provide members with more information to help you.

What type of isopods do you have in the tank?


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Thank you, I've filled that in below. I don't know what kind of isopods there are, but we got them from the frog breeder when we set up the tank and my husband "remembers checking that they wouldn't attack the frogs." I usually oversee any tank setups but I did not this time because everything was done identically to the breeder--who is singularly unhelpful right now, just suggested it was a spider web and offered us a free frog so I'm not impressed. I've reached out to get the name of the isopods.

Edit: isopods are armadillidiums

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ? Were they WC (wild collected) or CB (captive bred)?

Captive bred dendrobates tinctorius azureus, acquired from a local breeder about 3 months ago.

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

We have a digital thermometer/hygrometer combo. No supplemental heating (but will do external in winter, room + pad if necessary). We are having an insane heatwave right now though and we've been having to put ice packs and mist with cold (distilled) water to keep the temperature regulated. We've stuck a manual thermometer in their hiding places at substrate level and it's always 25-26 heat of the day, idk what the nighttime temps are but ambient right now is around 20-22. We've been pretty consistent with the ice packs and misting (although this had resulted in a wet-ass tank, hence why I think it's rot) but I'm sure they're stressed out still from temperature fluctuations.

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

LED like 4W aquarium light, very low light doesn't add head.

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

70-90 percent, hand misting usually just once per day in the morning with distilled but we discovered it was a great way to keep the tank cool (oops) so it's been so frequent I don't want to tell you guys the last week or so.

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

Converted I think reptile tank, glass top with large top vents but no side vents. I'm aware this is a problem, already sourcing a fan to rectify it (if anyone can advise me on placement in this type of setup I would be very grateful)

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

We are culturing our own fruit flies, husband is coating them with exoterra calcium powder. I am also aware this is insufficient and am also in the process of rectifying.

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

Two other frogs, same species, maybe a month or two older. This guy was sold to us as "the last of the litter" that we got the other two from, but then the breeder showed up and gave us this frog which is clearly much younger.

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

Just what I described before, seems tired, ate a few bugs now sleeping under a leaf. Other frogs seem totally fine.

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

I sprayed permethrin yesterday on the opposite side of the room in a directed spray like 5cm above the crack I was spraying it into. A quick search of these boards though says low toxicity to amphibians. Otherwise no, I don't think so.

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I can't see in the injury in the pics you provided. We need a close up of the foot. 

Move the frog to his own bin lined with damp paper towel. You're going to keep it in this until she or he's healed. Change the paper towels daily. The easiest thing to do is have two bins and just move the frog to the clean bin daily and sanitize the other one for the next day.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Froggo is already in a bin like you described. Great tip on having the second bin ready to go!

I tried to take a few more pictures, it's really difficult to get an up-close because he is holding it so awkwardly and close to his body, and I'm hyperconscious of stressing him out further. I think I can see his toes more clearly than earlier today, but his leg seems to be flopping a little strangely in the video below, I don't remember that from earlier as he was just holding it right next to his body. Apologies for the extremely shaky video lol.

Note the same thing is happening to the back left (you can see that a bit more clearly in the first photo, where the toes look stuck together) but not nearly as badly. Edit: are his toes missing on that foot?!



















http://imgur.com/a/ONCOGs0


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Sorry. I still can't see any kind of foot rot. Him holding his arm that way is alarming. Things can't get any more stressful than they already are for the little guy so don't worry about it. Take the frog and turn him over on his back. This will immobilize him. Hold his back legs with your thumb to secure him. Then you can get a close up on the foot.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

I appreciate the how-to but if I have to do that I might as well just wait to take him into the vet and let them get the close-up. Although from all the new photos I took I think he's missing his toes on his left side, this must be some kind of injury then rather than rot :-/


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

If you have the ability to take it to a vet, I would most certainly do that right away.

It looks like either severe foot rot, from likely a bacterial infection, or potentially a broken leg - and maybe both.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

The vet can't see us until Wednesday but I'm going to try and find another place that will see amphibians, and going to hit up a doctor friend to see if they can help with some silver sulfadiazine in the meantime. 

There isn't any visible swelling, at least from what I can see comparing the legs on the two sides. The rapid onset on ipsilateral legs is confusing.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

My guess is MBD caused by inadequate supplementation -- growing froglets use a ton of calcium, and without D3 in the supplement the frogs get no calcium -- and also some sort of rot following from too much moisture and lowered immune response caused by no D3. I'd recommend having Repashy Calcium Plus overnighted (if that product and that shipping service is available where you live) to you to get it into the other frogs starting tomorrow.

Posting photos of the viv itself would help repliers give advice on how to improve the housing situation.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Foot rot is a spot that's white to pinkish in color, swollen, and will immediately make you think of an infection. You would have to be talking about a long term infection for a frog to lose it's toes. I'd be more concerned about a broken arm like @Chris S said or MBD like @Socratic Monologue suggested.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

He wouldn’t eat dinner, acted terrified of the bugs :-(. We managed to find another vet, in the taxi right now. They had me WhatsApp pictures and they also think it’s a broken leg. I hope he will be okay, I’ve read front legs breaks are more survivable but something is definitely up with the back one too. 

I will post pics of our viv setup later though because I would love some advice on improving it, especially ventilation. Already ordered Repashy calcium plus. Thanks guys.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

You may be surprised how resilient it is, if it can get over this stage of it. This stage looks pretty bad.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Vet says its bizarre. She put on magnifying glasses and said she could see brownish black lesions all up its front left arm, back left foot and also back left knee. Could be a burn, could be infection she said but strange that it’s confined to the left extremities. Front left leg is basically floppy, all the toes are indeed gone from both feet. Posting in case anyone has any thoughts, she said she is not an expert in amphibians and any help is welcome.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Likely MBD, which has worsened into a bacterial infection / foot rot. If it looks that bad, it might be smarter to euthanize.

Edit: have the vet check the opposite extremities as well, for possible MBD.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Wright and Whittaker (Amphibian Medicine, 2001) note an apparent bacterial infection that presents as gray, brown or black lesions that hadn't at that time been identified. They note that treatment with enrofloxacin 5-10mg/kg IM, ICe, SQ, PO, or topically q 24hr is effective.

This would have to be a coinfection with another necrotic organism to have the symptoms you're showing, but it is a lead on figuring out the appearance.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Wow thanks so much everyone who replied so quickly. We’ve left the vet with a trauma vs infection differential, we’ve been told to dilute bacitracin cream (which has retinol, the vet said is essential) and apply it to the wounds, put him in a very small container and we just have to see what happens, i.e if it spreads it’s an infection, and keep a very close eye on the other frogs.

This guy is only a froglet maybe 3 months and 3cm max total length, so they couldn’t take an x-ray or do anything IM, and the vet didn’t want to prescribe an anti inflammatory because of his size. “My tiniest patient ever” she said, and literally the whole clinic of vets and vet students came in to see and take pictures of the wee guy, and one of them gasped and went “ohhhh dendrobates” it was very sweet.

Thanks again everyone!

Edit to add: Vet didn’t recommend euthanizing yet but if it’s worsened over the next 48 hours that’s probably what’s happening.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Just an FYI for future readers: bacitracin sold in the US doesn't seem to contain retinol as far as I can find. 

Please keep us posted. I would have thought a systemic antibiotic in order, but keepers report some amazing recoveries with just topicals. Hoping that things turn out well.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

He's survived the night, we tended to his wounds with the bacitracin (I did ask about systemics but he's so tiny the vet said she couldn't even locate a precedent for dosage) and moved him into a smaller enclosure per the vet's recommendation to try and keep him from moving around too much. He is no longer holding the front injured leg right next to his body but still holding it awkwardly and up off the ground. He is hopping around a bit, which we don't want but when he does he seems to be using both injured legs a lot more. I can definitely see the stumps of those two left feet more clearly today. Poor little dude.

He still is not really eating though, and he seems to just be running away from the fruit flies, climbing up the walls of his enclosure to get away from them. At least I think that's what he's doing since there are plenty of bugs on the ground for him to eat. We've just squashed them all now to try and keep him calm and still, and now he is chilling underneath a leaf.

The vet said she is not surprised he is not eating and it's probably not the most pressing concern right now, but if anyone has any suggestions for how to get him to eat, I would be very grateful! We put a piece of banana in the enclosure and did the straw thing but they just ignored the banana mostly (?) and went everywhere :-\

As usual, thanks a million. I'll try to snap a better picture of his stumps and upload when we put the bacitracin on again.

Edit to add: fruit flies are drosophila melanogaster, still coated in the exoterra right now, having some repashy overnighted.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

bigmeankitty said:


> He still is not really eating though, and he seems to just be running away from the fruit flies, climbing up the walls of his enclosure to get away from them. At least I think that's what he's doing since there are plenty of bugs on the ground for him to eat.


How many are you feeding him at one time? It's generally recommended that you shouldn't feed too many at once in such a small space as it stresses the frog out if the flies come in contact with the frog.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Anon123 said:


> How many are you feeding him at one time? It's generally recommended that you shouldn't feed too many at once in such a small space as it stresses the frog out if the flies come in contact with the frog.


Thanks for your reply! Probably somewhere between 15-25. They were definitely everywhere, it makes sense that would stress me out too. In the big viv they don't like it when the flies get on them but they usually just wipe them off, although I guess this little dude can't do that right now.

What is the maximum you would suggest right now? Also is there any way to incapacitate them so they move a bit slower for him to eat while he's sick? They're fast little buggers.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

bigmeankitty said:


> What is the maximum you would suggest right now? Also is there any way to incapacitate them so they move a bit slower for him to eat while he's sick? They're fast little buggers.


One or two at a time should be more than sufficient. If you can, drop them directly in front of the frog's mouth. I use a tea strainer to do this. Just keep adding more after they get eaten. Although I can't speak to how skinny your frog is, I don't have any experience with Azureus, I'm not sure if it's wise to try to get the frog to eat right now without the correct supplements as the flies contain questionable nutritional value. If it were me if wait till I have the Repashy Calcium Plus before trying to get the frog to eat and by then the frog should hopefully be a lot hungrier and more willing to eat. Maybe someone else can chime in here .

I've heard refrigerating the flies for a short duration slows them down, but since I don't have a separate fridge for my hobby I've never tried it myself.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Anon123 said:


> One or two at a time should be more than sufficient. If you can, drop them directly in front of the frog's mouth. I use a tea strainer to do this. Just keep adding more after they get eaten. Although I can't speak to how skinny your frog is, I don't have any experience with Azureus, I'm not sure if it's wise to try to get the frog to eat right now without the correct supplements as the flies contain questionable nutritional value. If it were me if wait till I have the Repashy Calcium Plus before trying to get the frog to eat and by then the frog should hopefully be a lot hungrier and more willing to eat. Maybe someone else can chime in here .
> 
> I've heard refrigerating the flies for a short duration slows them down, but since I don't have a separate fridge for my hobby I've never tried it myself.


This is all super helpful, thank you so much. I teach STEM and I always have science projects going in my fridge so I don't mind popping some flies in there next to our food lol. 

Out of curiosity, what else can we feed the frogs that is more nutritious? We're in a major city and have access to pretty much anything, and I'm happy to grow/culture any kind of insects we need to.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

bigmeankitty said:


> Out of curiosity, what else can we feed the frogs that is more nutritious? We're in a major city and have access to pretty much anything, and I'm happy to grow/culture any kind of insects we need to.


Here's a fairly recent discussion on this topic which seems to crop up every once in a while:








Alternative Feeders for Darties


Hello All Well, I feed my frogs on a diet of melo, hydei fruit flies, dusted of course, with bean beetles when I can get them. However... I believe a varied diet is essential to long life of any creature, and I want my frogs to have the best that I can provide. To that end... can we make a...




www.dendroboard.com





A short summary of it is: just feed your frogs flies dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus with every feeding and you'll do perfectly fine.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

There is Zero need for 'alternative' feeders. The 'bugs' don't relay the nutrition ('gut load') , the supplements do.

100% of nutritional needs are met with repashy calcium plus. 

You must dust (think sugar cookie) every single feeding. There are rotational supplements but for now, that is the best advice.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

There are prey items that might be used to increase caloric intake (FF larvae, waxworms, basically anything that isn't a fruit fly), but that's not the need in this situation. All captive produced feeder insects are virtually equally deficient in Ca, D3 and Vit A and so whatever is palatable at this point would be good with adequate dusting.

It may turn out that the frog is under such physical and other stress that it won't eat, and if so I don't think there is anything that could or should be done to prolong its life. Hopefully it eats on its own soon.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

However this goes, I just want to tell you how much respect I have for you for getting this guy prompt professional care. I hope you and your little guy have a good outcome!


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Thank you! And you've reminded me to post an update. Little froggo is still alive and doing pretty well all things considered. He is eating--thank you to Anon123 for suggesting refrigeration and feeding one at a time. As he doesn't have full use of his left legs, he was definitely getting upset about the flies on him, trying to swat them off unsuccessfully with his little stump. 

We still don't have the Repashy, which is infuriating, it arrived two days late and they sent the wrong one. At least he is getting vit A from the nightly applications of bacitracin. We've had to learn how to grab him (well my husband does this part and I apply the solution, the vet made it look so easy!) so have managed to get a better picture of the lesions:










The feet aren't visible but you can clearly see the dark discoloration up to the elbow on his front left leg, and on the foot and knee of the back left. It is still exactly as the vet described (she called it 'exposition') and definitely has not changed or progressed. He has toe stumps on his back leg and seems to be using it pretty much normally, and has started putting weight on his front stump although he still prefers to hold it slightly off the ground when standing still. He's still in a separate enclosure, other two frogs seem totally fine in the main and we have increased the amount of leaf litter and set up a ventilation system.

We're still not really sure what happened, but just glad he's doing okay although it will be a few more weeks before I stop worrying, and then I'll worry again reintroducing him to the main enclosure. Worst 'best case' scenario is he lives his life out a bit gimpy and we give him some extra help at feeding times. Thanks again everyone for all your help and advice!


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Hi, another update and query! Froglet is still doing well, he is eating, very active and seems desperate to escape his hospital enclosure (which he did today, little dbag). He is putting more and more weight on his front foot, and in a more natural position.

His wounds have also turned from black to grey, and I have no idea what that means! No spread, just color change. The vet we saw before is not in the office today so we are waiting until tomorrow for her to look at the pictures. Thought I would drop them here too and see what you guys think.

















Thanks!!


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Documenting the vet's answer in case anyone in the future is having a similar issue and finds this thread. Vet said she is pretty sure the grey is new skin growth, which is normally white but she supposed might appear grey on him because he's blue (she doesn't normally have blue patients).

Thanks again, everyone!


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Glad to hear that the frog is doing well and eating now!


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Well, back with another question 😂 froggo is still doing well but desperately trying to escape his hospital enclosure and has succeeded once, which was fking terrifying!

Before I get him a new and improved hospital enclosure...It’s been almost two weeks and just wondering about when is okay to put him back in the main tank with the other two frogs? The vet wants us to keep applying the bacitracin for the vit A as long as there is visible healing going on, does he need to be in the enclosure the whole time? Could be weeks more...

I’m worried about the bacitracin getting in the tank if we put him back (would that be a problem?), but I’m also worried about keeping him isolated from the other frogs for so long re: group dynamics.

Thanks as always 🙏


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

No experience with injured frogs myself, but I would be concerned about him being outcompeted for food if he's not as mobile as the others. Are you able to build a second (possibly smaller) enclosure for a permanent home, where he will never have to compete with other frogs for food/territory?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

also, you want to get him back into a reg designed enclosure somewhat quickly. The Q-tine and temp tanks can actually produce a lot of stress.


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## bigmeankitty (6 mo ago)

Ack okay sounds like we should introduce him back into the tank. He is definitely annoyed with his enclosure and he seems very strong. We already have some plans for feeding if he needs help! Thanks!


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