# Lamisil Powder or Gel, anyone ever use it?



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I'm just curious is anyone has ever used the power spay or gel? I know everyone has said not too, but has anyone tried?


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Cream? Anyone? Any purpose against it?


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

I was thinking the same thing.. I can find the Lamisil AT cream all day long..


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

After having gone online to see about the possibility of gel/spray...would have to be concerned about a frog inhaling the spray...don't know about the gel..why would that be better than a cream??


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Well the spray is not directly put on the frogs.. You add water too it then soak them...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Creams are typically made to coat the skin (or other membrane) which can inhibit water movement, CO2, O2, and/or ions. This isn't usually a problem since the use of a cream or ointment (like silvadene) isn't used to coat a large portion of the surface area of an amphbian. With treating for chytrid however, you need to have contact/coverage to as much of the ventral portion of the frog imcluding the all important drinking patch (which has a significant role on osmoregulation).... I would be very leery of a cream to cover/contact that much of a frog without direct oversight of a veterinarian. 

As a further complication, creams tend to not dissolve well in water which is a further complication.... 

As for the gel, there tends to be the same concerns as a cream but they are often more soluble in either water or alcohol... You should be careful of the secondary ingredients in gels and creams. 

If you have access to a veterinarian and don't want to pay for the cost of itraconazole, don't forget that they can also write prescriptions for terbinafine... At the worst, you would have get it at a compounding pharmacy..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Just emailed you Justin.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Thanks Ed, my vet is sending me some terbinafine but I was curious about readily available sources. I'm hesitant to use itraconazole because of the papers I've read about success with it. 

I think I'm going to try some cream in some water or alcohol to see if it can be soluble. You would think at least the medication would leach out. More for purposes of curiosity then anything. As it would help the hobby to have easy access to treat chytrid again. 

Cheers,
Justin




Ed said:


> Creams are typically made to coat the skin (or other membrane) which can inhibit water movement, CO2, O2, and/or ions. This isn't usually a problem since the use of a cream or ointment (like silvadene) isn't used to coat a large portion of the surface area of an amphbian. With treating for chytrid however, you need to have contact/coverage to as much of the ventral portion of the frog imcluding the all important drinking patch (which has a significant role on osmoregulation).... I would be very leery of a cream to cover/contact that much of a frog without direct oversight of a veterinarian.
> 
> As a further complication, creams tend to not dissolve well in water which is a further complication....
> 
> ...


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Yes, but I'm a bit cautious of the spray powder form. It use an aluminum compound of I remember correctly. I could see that wrecking havoc on the skin of frogs. 



TheCoop said:


> Well the spray is not directly put on the frogs.. You add water too it then soak them...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> . I'm hesitant to use itraconazole because of the papers I've read about success with it.


Okay I'm curious now since the vast majority of papers show it to be highly effective even at reduced concentrations, reduced exposure times and reduce numbers of days of treatment... I'm not sure where your seeing that it has poor cure rates.... 

See for example Inter Research » DAO » v101 » n2 » p95-104 

Inter Research » DAO » v99 » n3 » p243-249 

Some comments

Ed


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Just what I remember from a older paper, I'll revisit it in a few days. 




Ed said:


> Okay I'm curious now since the vast majority of papers show it to be highly effective even at reduced concentrations, reduced exposure times and reduce numbers of days of treatment... I'm not sure where your seeing that it has poor cure rates....
> 
> See for example Inter Research*»*DAO*»*v101*»*n2*»*p95-104
> 
> ...


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Well, I did try some cream on some Cuban Tree Frogs today (an invasive species). While I will not be testing it's ability to cure chytrid, I will be seeing it it has any negative consequences. I first took a small container and put in 50mL of HOT water in it. Then I added 1 gram of Lamisil Cream, put the lid on the container and shook it strongly. All the cream appeared to dissolve. I then added it to a container with an additional 150 mL of room temp water. I gave it a few minutes to settle down, then added the frogs in the bath for 5 mins. So far, nothing negative noted, but I'll know more in the next few weeks (doing this for 10-14 days, daily). Then I'll try it on a few other species. Once I found it appears safe, I can try to on specimens with chytrid to see it is effective.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

about how expensive would be a "course" of treatment with your experiment?


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Less then $10, but I wouldn't try it until I figure out if it is safe. I'd suck to see a prize specimen be hurt by trying it out. Which is why I'm using Cuban Tree frogs, an invasive species here in FL. 



Judy S said:


> about how expensive would be a "course" of treatment with your experiment?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

SEE, INVASIVES ARE GOOD FOR SOMETHING. Did you get body mass values for your test subjects?


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Itraconazole is what I use, strongly recommended by my vet. Although the initial purchase is pricing, it seems like per dose to be very inexpensive. 

I will get my test results today on a 5 minute daily, 12 day treatment. I don't know what the concentration is off hand, but I can check notes when I get home if anyone is interested.


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Dendrobati said:


> Itraconazole is what I use, strongly recommended by my vet. Although the initial purchase is pricing, it seems like per dose to be very inexpensive.
> 
> I will get my test results today on a 5 minute daily, 12 day treatment. I don't know what the concentration is off hand, but I can check notes when I get home if anyone is interested.


Mine was 1 ml Itraconazole to 1 litre of Spring water. I had to do a second round of it though because it didn't get rid of it the 1st time


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeffr said:


> Mine was 1 ml Itraconazole to 1 litre of Spring water. I had to do a second round of it though because it didn't get rid of it the 1st time


Why didn't you buffer it in amphibian ringer's solution? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Ed said:


> Why didn't you buffer it in amphibian ringer's solution?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


That's a very good point. No need to waste a good opportunity to do good for the frogs that probably badly need it


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Ed said:


> Why didn't you buffer it in amphibian ringer's solution?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


It was my first time having to do this. I just did what I was told to do


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Would you want it to be isotonic? What about possible interactions with the ARS? I use regular water and will continue to do so on short 5 min baths. I guess this is a good place to use my chem skills to see if any reactions would occur in ARS.  



Ed said:


> Why didn't you buffer it in amphibian ringer's solution?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The reason it is supposed to be used with ARS (or other buffered solution) is because the itraconazole solution has a pH of 2 due to the use of HCl and propylene glycol... The ARS buffers the pH which prevents irritation from the low pH.. IN addition, chytrid infection disrupts the ability to osmoregulate and results in ion imbalances which baths is ARS can help treat symptomatically... (See for example http://eprints.jcu.edu.au/2608/1/2608_Voyles_et_al...2007.pdf )... and 
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.caudata.org%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Ff1173-advanced-newt-salamander-topics%2Ff1175-herpetological-science-politics%2Ff1181-other-scientific-studies%2F8208d1256548413-pathogenesis-chytridiomycosis-cause-catastrophicamphibian-declines-pathogenesis-chytridiomycosis-cause-catastrophicamphibian-declines.pdf&ei=pz_eUNCcKLG30AHupoH4Bg&usg=AFQjCNGIcslz2ZoIvme6ABbkGeCtlZ8Vpg&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ

Some comments 

Ed


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

The solution the frog would be submerged in has a pH of 2? Or the product you would be mixing in the water?




Ed said:


> The reason it is supposed to be used with ARS (or other buffered solution) is because the itraconazole solution has a pH of 2 due to the use of HCl and propylene glycol... The ARS buffers the pH which prevents irritation from the low pH.. IN addition, chytrid infection disrupts the ability to osmoregulate and results in ion imbalances which baths is ARS can help treat symptomatically... (See for example http://eprints.jcu.edu.au/2608/1/2608_Voyles_et_al...2007.pdf )... and
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.caudata.org%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Ff1173-advanced-newt-salamander-topics%2Ff1175-herpetological-science-politics%2Ff1181-other-scientific-studies%2F8208d1256548413-pathogenesis-chytridiomycosis-cause-catastrophicamphibian-declines-pathogenesis-chytridiomycosis-cause-catastrophicamphibian-declines.pdf&ei=pz_eUNCcKLG30AHupoH4Bg&usg=AFQjCNGIcslz2ZoIvme6ABbkGeCtlZ8Vpg&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ
> 
> Some comments
> ...


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Hmmmm....where does one get amphibian Ringers??? The proposed treatment sounds really promising...and doesn't appear to have any downside except for stress to the dunked frog...or am I missing a huge "something"?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The pH of the mother solution is around 2.0, however it also acidifies the pH of the soaking solution which irritates the frogs and can contribute to mortality of some species or tadpoles.. This is one of the reasons that other fungicides like miconazole aren't good for the frogs... The resulting pH of the diluted solution of miconazole was shown to be a contributing factor in the death of treated animals. Fluconazole has been shown to be safe for tadpoles (itraconazole was implicated in some depignmentation of tadpole but still cured the fungal infection). 

This article has some good discussion on frogs that are in imminent risk of death through the use of electrolyte support and treatment (although in this case the electrolytes were adminstered via injection.... An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Hmmmm....where does one get amphibian Ringers??? The proposed treatment sounds really promising...and doesn't appear to have any downside except for stress to the dunked frog...or am I missing a huge "something"?


 
ARS can either be ordered from the Carolina Bio Supply company or you can ask a compounding pharmacy to make it (or purchase the ingredients from them). The recipes for normal and hypertonic can be found here Caudata Culture Articles: Bloat 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

that seems straight forward enough...would it be sensible to obtain/mix some of that solution in the event it were needed--how long a shelf life does it have once mixed up? What is the difference between regular Ringers and this formulation??


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I haven't read the paper on lamasil but other antifungals need to be made up fresh as they don't have a good shelf life... At least every ten days for itraconazole as an example. 

Some comments 

Ed


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