# do you think makeing a hybrid for a personal collection is wrong?



## auratus677 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hello other frog keepers I was just wanting to know your personal opinion
about making your own dart frog hybrid for your own personal collection or as a intresting terrarium specimen do you think this is wrong to do? Im not saying that you make a hybrid for selling i already know the whole problem with that and im not saying im going to make a hybrid myself.
just wanting to see your'e opinons.

thanks


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## diver123 (Aug 26, 2009)

Use the search feature. This type of thread gets beat to death once a week. Nothing good ever comes out of it. All your answer can be found in previous threads. Same people with their same opinions. Lets not do this again its just not helpful in my opinion.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

how can you know the whole problem with selling them, but not know everyones opinion on your question?


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I do not think it is wrong at all. In fact, the focus should be on registering the new hybrid as a new frog so it can be tracked and traded just as a pure line frog. Then there would be no need to continue the debate for or against hybrids. It's easy to think they do not exist when in fact they have been popping up even at herp shows lately.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

absolutely


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> It's easy to think they do not exist when in fact they have been popping up even at herp shows lately.


Bryan,

what Herp show's have you seen them at? I have not seen them at Hamburg Pa - one of the larger shows in the Industry.


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Just my 2 cents....

WHY do you want to make a hybrid??? WHAT do you what to hybridize? Are you interested in determining if different species will hybridize or what the phenotype between localities will be???

I'm sorry, but I'm on a genetics kick, and my mind has been racing with questions and thoughts!

Why not try a breeding project within the species and locality, dealing with a specific factor? I don't know if froggers use terms like "high" and "reduced" (we do in the snake world) but, for example, seek out a pair of "high" yellow cits, and a pair of "reduced" yellow cits, and flip flop the mates. Breed them and see if you get high yellow babies, reduced yellow babies, a blend, etc. etc. from two pairings of High yellow with reduced yellow. 

Best of luck with what ever you pursue!


Stephi

I'm still a noob to the hobby though, so Ed and Phil and all the other Frog Gods, please post or PM me a reference if this IS a common thing in the hobby and has been done to the nth degree and I just haven't done enough research and my suggestion is a bad one that won't help anyone.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Bryan,
> 
> what Herp show's have you seen them at? I have not seen them at Hamburg Pa - one of the larger shows in the Industry.



Member massha has reported them at the Harrisburg expo. 

Member Ed has reported seeing them on and off at shows for the past 10 years and I believe he included the Hamburg show. 
"At one of the recent Hamburg swaps there was a guy there selling hybrid dart frogs so I would have to say that no one will buy them has been tossed out the window. I would have to say that it would be irresponsible to produce them when a number of dart frog species are not established in the hobby as this runs the risk of further hybridization by animals that look like the nominate species. "

The above quote can be found in post #38 this thread: 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/4593-hybrid-picture-2.html


The last KC show I went to(probably has been about 4 or 5 years ago) there was a local vendor(If I remember correctly, he was out of Eudora at the time) had several tinc crosses.

There was recently a reptile website that listed hybrids for sale(not going to name it but you can find the thread on DB)

They have been listed on Kingsnake numerous times.

They have been listed on here by members(search the classifieds on DB). I tried to purchase them but they were sold before I could even get my PM sent.


Hybrids exist and will continue to exist and will probably grow in numbers as the number of hobbiest grow. Everyone that is concerned with keeping pure lines can either except that they exist and include them in the registartion efforts or the possibility of identifying any of these frogs will become impossible. 

Stop focusing the energy on hiding the issue with incorrect facts and data and focus it on getting as many frogs registerd as possible.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> Hybrids exist and will continue to exist and will probably grow in numbers as the number of hobbiest grow. Everyone that is concerned with keeping pure lines can either except that they exist and include them in the registartion efforts or the possibility of identifying any of these frogs will become impossible.
> 
> Stop focusing the energy on hiding the issue with incorrect facts and data and focus it on getting as many frogs registerd as possible.


Hi Bryan,

Thank God you live in the Midwest and I will most likely never meet you in life.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Ethical hobbyists would be clear to manage their collections appropriately and disclose their work to the community as a whole. Unfortunately, the smears that occur when someone brings up such an issue just drives this kind of interest "underground". It would be better if those having a negative opinions would back off a bit and understand that all the threats of "not dealing with someone who has intermorphs in their collections" doesn't produce the results they are hoping for.

That said, much praise should be given to the dart frog hobby for its focus on species and locality morphs. There are few other communities that are willing to work to keep their animals as close to how they would appear in nature. It's just unfortunate that we don't have very good locality data for most of the frogs that we care for.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

They are your frogs. Do with them what you'd like. No need to resurrect the whole debate, every single opinion is already out there.


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

mtolypetsupply said:


> I'm still a noob to the hobby though, so Ed and Phil and all the other Frog Gods, please post or PM me a reference if this IS a common thing in the hobby and has been done to the nth degree and I just haven't done enough research and my suggestion is a bad one that won't help anyone.


Wow... "Gods"?!?!?!... I didnt know we were subject to a higher power. Or at least my frogs do.

But wait... Phil just thanked the Human God that Bryan lives in the Midwest.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

What exactly are the qualifacations one would need to become a frog God?

John


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> What exactly are the qualifacations one would need to become a frog God?
> 
> John


Three confirmed frog miracles...no wait, that's a frog saint.

I guess one confirmed resurrection would do it...but tired, redundant, argumentative thread resurrections don't count.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Hi Bryan,
> 
> Thank God you live in the Midwest and I will most likely never meet you in life.



So no comment on the presence of hybrid frogs for sale at the "Hamburg Pa - one of the larger shows in the Industry."??


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Jellyman said:


> So no comment on the presence of hybrid frogs for sale at the "Hamburg Pa - one of the larger shows in the Industry."??


Please phrase your question in the form of a prayer.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> Please phrase your question in the form of a prayer.


 Now that's funny 
Two Thumbs up.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> So no comment on the presence of hybrid frogs for sale at the "Hamburg Pa - one of the larger shows in the Industry."??


Oh Bryan,

_Once again_....you are the bastion of incomplete and even erroneous information that you are attempting to pass off as fact 

Did YOU see the Hybrids at Hamburg? Have a pic? Are you SURE that Masha is correct with her information about her sighting? She's fairly new to the hobby. Ed saw some there years ago.....do you think they are still there?

I have been to Hamburg Shows since the 80's. I'm pretty sure I know much of what gets displayed and sold there.

Man....I JUST got back from the mud and muck of the Forest and I'm really in no mood to wrestle with you right now.

_But I am a generous god. I can make you rich in frogs beyond all measure. I will make you the poster child of all mixed species and hybrid vivariums. You will carry the hybrid frog standard to the heart of Europa, or at least Germany and the Netherlands. Your conservation and pure line rival hobbyists will kneel at your feet if you will but kneel at mine. _


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> _But I am a generous god. I can make you rich in frogs beyond all measure. I will make you the poster child of all mixed species and hybrid vivariums. You will carry the hybrid frog standard to the heart of Europa, or at least Germany and the Netherlands. Your conservation and pure line rival hobbyists will kneel at your feet if you will but kneel at mine. _


Seems like a good deal.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> _But I am a generous god. I can make you rich in frogs beyond all measure. I will make you the poster child of all mixed species and hybrid vivariums. You will carry the hybrid frog standard to the heart of Europa, or at least Germany and the Netherlands. Your conservation and pure line rival hobbyists will kneel at your feet if you will but kneel at mine. _


perfect use of a *300* quote
now use Lord of the Rings  haha jk


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Woodsman said:


> Ethical hobbyists would be clear to manage their collections appropriately and disclose their work to the community as a whole. Unfortunately, the smears that occur when someone brings up such an issue just drives this kind of interest "underground". It would be better if those having a negative opinions would back off a bit and understand that all the threats of "not dealing with someone who has intermorphs in their collections" doesn't produce the results they are hoping for.


Hi Richard,

I know you have a horse in this race but it's really not about "negative opinions". I don't see ANY threads started on this board or any other for that matter, that BEGIN with an "Anti- Hybrid" post or stance. ALL anti, or as you point it, "negative" postings come AFTER such a post - in other words, the comments and opinions are 100% REACTIONARY to the hybrid postings. What does that tell you?

There is no Witch hunt. Nobody _preemptively_ brings up a certain hobbyist in a state that starts with an O and ends with an O. There is certainly a live and let live. There is NO persecution. If certain people or hobbyists believe that their actions will be critisized or that they will be ostrasized from the dart frog community - then that is a by-product of the ethics of the ENTIRE hobby as a whole. Much bigger than one board member named Philsuma or even a group of "Dendroboarders".

If someone is driven underground.....don't blame any one person .The hobby has a longstanding constituted ethical bent. Will Hybrid dart frogs become all the rage someday? I personally doubt it. It hasn't happened in over 20 years so far and I doubt that the hobby is just slow.....


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> Seems like a good deal.


I though so....













_*Offer good only with the purchase of a transulcent, hypo carrot coloured Leucomelas and while supplies last._


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Oh Bryan,
> 
> _Once again_
> Did YOU see the Hybrids at Hamburg? Have a pic? Are you SURE that Masha is correct with her information about her sighting? She's fairly new to the hobby. Ed saw some there years ago.....do you think they are still there?
> ...


So Ed is lying when he stated that he "recently" saw hybrids being sold at the Hamburg show. So everyone except you are mistaken??

Isn't it funny how many more people have come out of the woodworks in the past month that do not accept the one sided arguement of hybrids and crosses. They might all not be in favor of them but they would rather see a solution then the constant one sided arguements. 

Why is it such an issue when a system for registering frogs is readily available yet the energy is not focused on getting them registered. Don't limit the registration to non hybrids and the problem is solved. Then everyone would have access to who has only pure lines, who has both, and who has hybrids. 

As long as heads remain in the sand and are not capable of looking left and right and coming up with realistic solutions then the muddying of waters will continue.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Why waste the limited bloodlines that we have as it is on frogs that the majority of long term keepers don't want? To those of us that actually have been and plan on being around for a long amount of time, we know that there is going to be a time when we can't bring in fresh animals to replenish the locality morphs and quite frankly, hybridizing just dilutes that useable gene pool even less. Maybe some of you should actually think about the community as a whole and not just what you personally want. Clearly you are in the minority on the hybrid issue, yet keep pushing for it.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Yep...people are coming out of the woodwork (nice word choice btw) all over the place in support of Hybrids lately 

They are just slowly gaining momentum from their underground lairs to plot the newest designer frog - after 20 years in the making....

It IS a one sided argument though.....I'll give you that. There is only one single selfish reason for crossing frogs and most likely a dozen respectable reasons why we should not. Thats all....

Still....what you do with your own animals in your own house shall always be your personal business. This board is primarliy a conduit for beginners and new hobbyists. Why is your main agenda to post on here and to give them information and support on "Hybrid" frogs?

Your'e like the goofy dangerous 20 year old in the car club who tells all the new guys how to juice up their rides and to not listen to the other guys.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Please take note that I did not start this thread or the numerous others that have surfaced. Question was asked by the opening poster. I answered in what is rightfully my opinion. Again, a certain member feels the need to challenge that opinion. I enjoy the potential possibilities of hybrids. Plain and simple. The illusion that because the general feeling of some outspoken members on DB is the concensus majority for the hobby as a whole is a bit arrogant.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Please take note that I did not start this thread or the numerous others that have surfaced. Question was asked by the opening poster. I answered in what is rightfully my opinion. Again, a certain member feels the need to challenge that opinion. I enjoy the potential possibilities of hybrids. Plain and simple. The illusion that because the general feeling of some outspoken members on DB is the concensus majority for the hobby as a whole is a bit arrogant.



Once again, the MAJORITY of the hobby is against hybrids, and just because you have a few KIDS telling you that "changes are coming", doesn't make it so.

Here is one example of common knowledge that exists outside of the hobby

Article Archive - Aquarium Supplies, Pet Supplies and Pond Supplies by That Fish Place - That Pet Place


NOTE: Mixing species is generally frowned upon in the poison frog hobby, even in larger tanks. The possibility of breeding hybrid frogs is undesirable, and many of these frogs are extremely aggressive and will fight each other. This can lead to frog deaths due to drowning, starvation, and stress. It is much better to start with one species per tank, especially when new to the hobby. There are many factors which can lead to serious problems when multiple species occupy the same vivarium.

I suppose "a certain member" is working with this and other websites?

Besides, you can support hybrids all you want, all those years you had those frogs crammed in that tank and they never even bred. You really shouldn't be giving advice to anyone, but that's my opinion that I'm entitled too just like you are to yours.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Actually they were breeding in the tank for all those years. I had just chosen not to pull any of the eggs and raise them. Now that they are in the new tank they have discovered alot of deposition spots that I had not anticipated and the eggs have been seen almost every other day for the last few months. Thanks to the few that continually bash and bash I have been increasingly motivated to give a go at raising the eggs one to end the debate that a mixed tank is breeding successfully and two just to see if they are crossing or not simply for my own curiosity at this point.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> Actually they were breeding in the tank for all those years. I had just chosen not to pull any of the eggs and raise them. Now that they are in the new tank they have discovered alot of deposition spots that I had not anticipated and the eggs have been seen almost every other day for the last few months. Thanks to the few that continually bash and bash I have been increasingly motivated to give a go at raising the eggs one to end the debate that a mixed tank is breeding successfully and two just to see if they are crossing or not simply for my own curiosity at this point.


Based on what I've seen you post on this forum, I think you have a LONG way to go to prove you are a successful hobbyist in any venue.

_Responsible hobbyist_? That horse left the barn a long time ago and got hit by a car. It'll never be back.

So....go for it. Post pics so we can all see!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mtolypetsupply said:


> I'm still a noob to the hobby though, so Ed and Phil and all the other Frog Gods, please post or PM me a reference if this IS a common thing in the hobby and has been done to the nth degree and I just haven't done enough research and my suggestion is a bad one that won't help anyone.


Sorry, I don't qualify for deification... there are a pretty large group of froggers out there that know far far more than me.... besides I would make a lousy god..... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> Member massha has reported them at the Harrisburg expo.
> 
> Member Ed has reported seeing them on and off at shows for the past 10 years and I believe he included the Hamburg show.
> "At one of the recent Hamburg swaps there was a guy there selling hybrid dart frogs so I would have to say that no one will buy them has been tossed out the window. I would have to say that it would be irresponsible to produce them when a number of dart frog species are not established in the hobby as this runs the risk of further hybridization by animals that look like the nominate species. "
> .


When you have been going to the swaps as long as I have, recent can take on a slightly different meaning. If I remember correctly it was between three to five years ago... the people selling the frogs had them labeled as designer frogs and if you didn't read the label they just looked like a tinct variety and weren't anyting special.. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

So you all thought it was soooo important to piss on each other in a troll post 

enough already.

think any of the last 2 pages of junk is important to Dendroboard? and would have been said in the manner it was posted if the Rep system was still running?


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