# Tincs and Vamps in the same 55G Paludarium



## intelsuit

This will be an on going history of my 55 gallon paludarium. I think I'm breaking a lot of rules here but time will tell. I originally built the tank to house Geosesarma sp. "Vampire Crabs". These are beautiful small terrestrial crabs from Indonesia. They are primarily black with purple, reds, blues, and yellow mixed on their bodies.
The paludarium itself is primarily decorated with natural tree bark to give lots of places to hide. There is a large log running through the center over the water which is supported by the land parts on both sides. I designed it myself with lots of thanks and ideas to everyone who has ever posted pictures of their Vivs and tanks. I believe I set the tank up properly by adding springtails to the tank and a few fruit flies here and there. According to Brians Tropicals, he breeds vampire crabs and that is what they eat.
So on with my story... About 2 months ago for a few weeks time period, I saw very little movement from my one remaining male crab. I regularly dumped fruit flies in so that he had something to eat besides the springtails. I decided that it was dumb to have a tank like this with a few fish in the water and only one crab. So back in December of 2011 I decided to purchase 2 Dendrobates Tinctorius Cobalts from the Local pet store. I know now that it might not have been the smartest idea because I didn't know where they came from etc. Well they have seemed to do well so far.
I noticed a few days after that my male vamp was more active with the tincs in the tank so maybe that is a good thing.
A few days ago I just noticed 3 baby crabs digging through the substrate. So now I have at least 3 juvenile crabs, a male adult vampire crab, and 2 tinc cobalts all in the 55 gallon tank.
Have you ever thought about doing this? Mixing species in a tank? What do you think? They have community fish tanks, why not community vivs? I think it would make for a much more interesting display tank to have all of these together, dont' you? As I said before, I will keep you posted on the progress and let you know how it goes.


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## ruthieb

Got myself a big bowl of popcorn so I'm ready...just waiting for the fireworks.

Let the show begin!


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## mordoria

Search for mixed tank discussions on the forum. Youll see its a hot topic.


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## carbonetc

Have the tincs eaten any baby crabs that you know of?


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## tclipse

carbonetc said:


> Have the tincs eaten any baby crabs that you know of?


If he's only seen 3, most likely. The babies are definitely small enough, and geosesarma seem to usually have batches of 20-40, with a smattering of reports as high as 60.


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## Afemoralis

Fireworks and Fuses aside, 

Two points: 

1) The vast majority of crabs are opportunistic predators. Unlike vertebrate predators, crabs are not 'gape limited'- they can catch prey that is much larger than themselves and then slowly tear it to pieces and eat it. Frequently the prey item is alive while they do this.

2) Almost all dentrobatids have ranges that overlap with terrestrial and semi-terrestrial crabs. For the most part these are bigger and badder than Geosesarma will ever be.

Afemoralis


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## Julio

The crabs will also be active at night while the frogs sleep the crabs will feast


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## intelsuit

I counted the number of crabs tonight. I found at least 6 juveniles. All have shells of a little less than 1/4 of an inch. Total size with legs is about a half an inch across. I used lava rock instead of LECA for my drainage layer under my substrate. Some of the lava has move and created little caves. This is primarily where the crabs hide. A while back I threw in some mixed salad that you buy at the store with the lettuce, cabbage, and carrots mixed in for color. I noticed tonight a crab heartily eating a bit of shredded carrot. I ran to get my video camera but he had moved by the time I returned. I was assuming that they were primarily surviving on baby springtails but apparently they are omnivorous. I found a website that listed their diet but I had never actually witnessed them eating anything but flake food in the previous 10 gallon tank. So, the crabs are at the bottom actually underneath the substrate at the edges of the water. The frogs stay primarily at the top of the tank on the ledges provided by the bark.
I havent seen the large male crab for at least a week. Although, he is probably still alive he is very reclusive. 
Oh, I forgot to mention that I have two small guppies in the water, along with a plecostamus, a Cory cat fish, an aquatic frog, along with the shrimp. I used to feed them all flake food and I do occasionally do that but I noticed a while back a ton of springtails and fruit flies floating in the water. As I was watching onr of the fish came up and ate one of the floating springtails. I realized that these fish get fed by the bugs falling into the water similar to what happens in nature. That might be a huge assumption but in haven't fed flake in about a month now and I noticed the aquatic frog getting fatter. The catfish is huge and all of the shrimp look healthy as well. In fact I think that they have actually reproduced because I swear there are more in there than when I started. More to come...


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## Mitch

Please don't add frogs to that tank. It sounds like there's enough in there already. That Pleco is bound to outgrow your water area very soon.


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## tclipse

Mitch said:


> Please don't add frogs to that tank. It sounds like there's enough in there already. That Pleco is bound to outgrow your water area very soon.


Especially with only 4" of water. Not to mention:

-cory cats and African dwarf frogs do best in groups

-the guppies are toast if they get too close to the crabs

-fish flakes/drowned flies are not a nutritionally acceptable diet for aquatic frogs in the long term... especially with other aggressive bottom feeders (cory, pleco) in the tank competing for food.



> A common misconception is that these aquatic amphibians can be cared for as if they are goldfish. Though they can thrive in a tropical fish aquarium special care must be taken to prevent them from starving to death. These frogs are bottom feeders. Their preferred diet consists of blood worms (live or frozen), small (or chopped) earthworms, tubifex worms, etc. I have observed them eating fish flakes only on rare occasions and never in any quantity.


 (pipidae.org and multiple other sources, can't find a single site that outright recommends feeding them flake)

-aquatic frogs are perfect vectors for nasties that can transfer to dendros (i.e. chytrid), I wouldn't trust my darts anywhere near a pet store bought xenopus/hymenochirus...

-if it's a xenopus, most of the fish will get eaten as it grows, and it will probably try to swallow the cory and may get spined

-the majority of the newborn baby crabs will be eaten by the pleco/cory, and probably the frogs

-I wouldn't trust a pleco with aquatic frogs, plecos like sucking the slime off of other fish/critters... EDIT- as suspected: (Warning: Plecos and African Dwarf Frogs, Plecos and African dwarf frogs - talk to the frog) 


> Do not be misled by petstore employees when they tell you plecos and african dwarf frogs (and other small aquatic animals, if i'm not mistaken) are compatible tankmates. I have recently witnessed a pleco nearly battering an african dwarf frog to death by attaching its mouth to the frogs body and moving swifty along the substrate in the bottom of the tank. The pleco was completely aggressive in posture and did this repeatedly until I was forced to seperate the species. I have also heard of several other accounts of this with dwarf frogs and other small fish and animals.


Did the pleco/cory already eat the shrimp you had in there last week? 


intelsuit said:


> I have a 55g paludarium that has been setup for a few months. I have about 10 gallons of water *populated with shrimp* a Pelco and a Cory cat. I have an aquatic frog as well. I originally created this to house geosesarma sp. crabs. There are two left. I don't think I was feeding them properly. I have a male and a small one, whose sex is yet to be determined. I have added two dendrobates tinctorius cobalt to the tank. It is well stocked now with a good population of springtails. I feed them fruit flies. The tincs have jumped into the water several times but have been able to get out because there are plenty of places for them to grab a hold. The water is about 4 inches deep.


Also, how is it that you had one crab left on 1/8/12 when you added the tincs, then two crabs left on 1/20/12, and now back to one again? More importantly, shouldn't the fact that the crabs were dropping like flies be a sign to figure out what's wrong before adding more animals?

Lastly, you have also asked this question in multiple threads, and gotten the same answers each time - 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/77295-two-new-tinc-cobalts.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/72320-brand-new-55-looking-suggestions.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/77448-240g-starter.html#post686114

If you're not going to take the advice, why ask again? You're almost guaranteed to lose one or more of the remaining animals in that tank..... it's your own decision whether or not you're okay with that.


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## mordoria

the crabs will also eat eggs and tadpoles


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## Pumilo

(in my head) Walk away...Walk away... just turn and walk away.


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## FrogFever




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## eyeviper

Pumilo said:


> (in my head) Walk away...Walk away... just turn and walk away.


HAHAHA I read the OP's post, then saw the last post with all the links and said the same thing....


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## wesly2007

I think it would be wise for you to assume the advise these highly experienced keepers are giving you is the best advice. Not a good idea to mix all of these species in one tank. From what i have heard very few people have good luck mixing species in one tank. the ones that do have very well thought out setups, and many years of experience in the hobby.


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## cbreon

Have you considered any posionous snakes for this build perhaps a fer de lance?? or if posionous snakes aren't your thing how about some kind of water monitor...


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## wesly2007

Furthermore you may end up pissing alot of people off by blaitantly disreguarding the advise of the majority. just my 2 cents.


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## eyeviper

add an alligator.


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## mantisdragon91

I actually think this could work as long as one doesn't mind some predation of the frogs on crablings and the crabs on frog eggs. However a better geographicly correct mix would be vampire crabs and cinnamon tree frogs.

Call me crazy but I think these forums should be about people discussing and exploring ideas as opposed to people with little to no practical expirience in the matter mocking and trying to push their idealogies on others.


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## tclipse

mantisdragon91 said:


> I actually think this could work as long as one doesn't mind some predation of the frogs on crablings and the crabs on frog eggs. However a better geographicly correct mix would be vampire crabs and cinnamon tree frogs.
> 
> Call me crazy but I think these forums should be about people discussing and exploring ideas as opposed to people with little to no practical expirience in the matter mocking and trying to push their idealogies on others.


Hope that wasn't referring to my post, as I included anecdotal references (I've also been keeping FW pretty much since I could walk and have kept all of the aquatic species the OP mentioned) to support most of the points.

The main issue here is that the OP couldn't keep the crabs alive in the first place..... this along with the obvious lack of research suggests he isn't ready to tackle a mixed setup like this.


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## mantisdragon91

tclipse said:


> Hope that wasn't referring to my post, as I included anecdotal references (I've also been keeping FW pretty much since I could walk and have kept all of the aquatic species the OP mentioned) to support most of the points.
> 
> The main issue here is that the OP couldn't keep the crabs alive in the first place..... this along with the obvious lack of research suggests he isn't ready to tackle a mixed setup like this.


Nope not you Teddy, but rather some of the more smug elements on here that have nothing of value to contribute other than a smart ass remark. I agree that the original poster is not particularly knowledgable on the subject. However why not turn this into a discussion of how and where things can be improved so that you can actually have a vibrant community with multiple species living and possibly even breeding in the same space? I find its always better to teach and guide than to mock outright, but to each their own


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## Pumilo

mantisdragon91 said:


> Nope not you Teddy, but rather some of the more smug elements on here that have nothing of value to contribute other than a smart ass remark. I agree that the original poster is not particularly knowledgable on the subject. However why not turn this into a discussion of how and where things can be improved so that you can actually have a vibrant community with multiple species living and possibly even breeding in the same space? I find its always better to teach and guide than to mock outright, but to each their own


The OP has not given any indication that he cares to learn or be guided with this setup. He's pretty much ignored any comments about the problems with this, both here and in another thread, including no comment to this 



 If a vampire crab can move that fast and take out a cricket, I would assume it could do the same to a newly morphed froglet stepping out of the water for the first time. It is obvious the the OP has not properly researched or had enough experience with any or most of the animals include in this project. He has also not addressed problems he saw (original animals dying off) but rather just tossed more animals in. 
My "walk away" comment stems from these things. If he does not care to learn from those with experience and knowledge regarding different aspects of this project, it is best to just walk away as it's simply going to become another argument.


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## mantisdragon91

Pumilo said:


> The OP has not given any indication that he cares to learn or be guided with this setup. He's pretty much ignored any comments about the problems with this, both here and in another thread, including no comment to this Vampire crab hunting.wmv - YouTube If a vampire crab can move that fast and take out a cricket, I would assume it could do the same to a newly morphed froglet stepping out of the water for the first time. It is obvious the the OP has not properly researched or had enough experience with any or most of the animals include in this project. He has also not addressed problems he saw (original animals dying off) but rather just tossed more animals in.
> My "walk away" comment stems from these things. If he does not care to learn from those with experience and knowledge regarding different aspects of this project, it is best to just walk away as it's simply going to become another argument.


The assumption you are making is that this thread is only read by the OP. I can tell you from first hand experience that many more people read and learn from these posts than ever post on them. Why not make it a teachable moment where we can objectively discuss the plusses and minusses of the current scenario and what we can do to improve it, as oppossed to acting like a bunch of prebuscent girls at a palyground?


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## cbreon

True Cinnamon frogs and some crabs may overlap, but they are not confined to a 55g enclosure. The combination of frogs and crabs does not sound like a healthy combination. Perhaps in a massive, zoo quality display you could pull something like this off in a humane way, but a 55g sounds like it is borderline cruel to me. 

My remark about a fer-de-lance or water monitor might have been smart ass but it had a point. To illustrate that the combination of all these animals in a 55g is, in my opinion, ridiculous.


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## Pumilo

mantisdragon91 said:


> The assumption you are making is that this thread is only read by the OP. I can tell you from first hand experience that many more people read and learn from these posts than ever post on them. Why not make it a teachable moment where we can objectively discuss the plusses and minusses of the current scenario and what we can do to improve it, as oppossed to acting like a bunch of prebuscent girls at a palyground?


Pretty much what I'm talking about right there.


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## mantisdragon91

cbreon said:


> True Cinnamon frogs and some crabs may overlap, but they are not confined to a 55g enclosure. The combination of frogs and crabs does not sound like a healthy combination. Perhaps in a massive, zoo quality display you could pull something like this off in a humane way, but a 55g sounds like it is borderline cruel to me.
> 
> My remark about a fer-de-lance or water monitor might have been smart ass but it had a point. To illustrate that the combination of all these animals in a 55g is, in my opinion, ridiculous.


Borderline cruel based on what standard? According to Pat Nabors who is one of the few breeding this species 6-8 can comfortably exist in a 20 High. The Cinnamons are arboreal while the crabs are terrestrial so I don't see much overlap there. The frogs lay eggs suspended on glass and tree branches so while its possible that the crabs can consume some it is unlikely to be a high percentage and the tads can always be removed from the water area to avoid predation. It is possible that the frogs will take some crablings as well, but the question you have to ask would be is it "natural, health or desirable" for every crabling to reach maturity? So then the questions becomes where would the inhumane factor really play out except possibly within our own perceptions and prejudices?


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## hypostatic

Pumilo said:


> Vampire crab hunting.wmv - YouTube


I love this vid =]. I particularly like how the crab takes the cricket to its burrow in order to tear it apart in private.

Also, I suspect that a vampire crab wouldn't have much trouble tackling a juvenile or adult frog either. After all, they just stand out in the open thinking they have something that makes them invulnerable to predators...


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## B-NICE

Those Crabs are nice, but they don't mix with Darts. The Dart will defenseless against those crabs. You will have to have a Dart that spends little to know time on the ground. However what goes up must come down.


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## cbreon

mantisdragon91 said:


> Borderline cruel based on what standard? According to Pat Nabors who is one of the few breeding this species 6-8 can comfortably exist in a 20 High. The Cinnamons are arboreal while the crabs are terrestrial so I don't see much overlap there. The frogs lay eggs suspended on glass and tree branches so while its possible that the crabs can consume some it is unlikely to be a high percentage and the tads can always be removed from the water area to avoid predation. It is possible that the frogs will take some crablings as well, but the question you have to ask would be is it "natural, health or desirable" for every crabling to reach maturity? So then the questions becomes where would the inhumane factor really play out except possibly within our own perceptions and prejudices?


I understand what you are saying, and I kind of blended my response. First the combination of tincs and crabs is what got me going, that sounds like a terrible idea to me. But even the combination of the cinnamon frogs and crabs seems unneccesarily dangerous. From what I have seen from the crabs, it would only take one mistake by the frogs and they may become food and that seems unneccessary to me. As for perceptions and prejudices, I think some mixed tanks can work assuming they are big enough, carefully planned, and take into consideration the animal's safety.


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## B-NICE

cbreon said:


> I understand what you are saying, and I kind of blended my response. First the combination of tincs and crabs is what got me going, that sounds like a terrible idea to me. But even the combination of the cinnamon frogs and crabs seems unneccesarily dangerous. From what I have seen from the crabs, it would only take one mistake by the frogs and they may become food and that seems unneccessary to me. As for perceptions and prejudices, I think some mixed tanks can work assuming they are big enough, carefully planned, and take into consideration the animal's safety.


Your right and 55G's isnt that big for whats at hand.


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## tclipse

Roman, I certainly understand the sentiment but also understand why people are getting upset...... the OP's mentality is the type that leads to dead animals. Five crabs and a bunch of shrimp have already disappeared in this guy's tank, how many more need to die before he figures out he should plan first, choose carefully, and fulfill each animal's needs?

The guy even admitted that he isn't even feeding the fish/aquatic frog........ Careless ignorance like that tends to bring out the worst in others.


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## B-NICE

Sometimes we have to realize, no matter what others say, people are going to do what they want to do despite what db members think. If advice isnt being taken in, just walk away. Ignorance is bliss.....


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## Pumilo

B-NICE said:


> Sometimes we have to realize, no matter what others say, people are going to do what they want to do despite what db members think. If advice isnt being taken in, just walk away. Ignorance is bliss.....


Walk away?? Uh oh, I guess that makes you another


mantisdragon91 said:


> prebuscent girls at a palyground?


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## B-NICE

Doug whats a palyground? LOL 

Hey, lets get on the monkey bars and then the slide lol........


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## Pumilo

B-NICE said:


> Doug whats a palyground? LOL
> 
> Hey, lets get on the monkey bars and then the slide lol........


Sorry, I'm having a tea party.


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## fieldnstream

Pumilo said:


> Sorry, I'm having a tea party.


You know what goes great with tea?...crabcakes


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## Pumilo

fieldnstream said:


> You know what goes great with tea?...crabcakes


Laugh out loud, Field! You bust me up!


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## B-NICE

Pumilo said:


> Laugh out loud, Field! You bust me up!


Field is the funniest dude on here. A tadpole tea party.....


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## Pumilo

B-NICE said:


> Field is the funniest dude on here. A tadpole tea party.....


Looks don't count!


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## B-NICE

LOL, that was a cheap shot......


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## intelsuit

Pumilo said:


> The OP has not given any indication that he cares to learn or be guided with this setup. He's pretty much ignored any comments about the problems with this, both here and in another thread, including no comment to this Vampire crab hunting.wmv - YouTube If a vampire crab can move that fast and take out a cricket, I would assume it could do the same to a newly morphed froglet stepping out of the water for the first time. It is obvious the the OP has not properly researched or had enough experience with any or most of the animals include in this project. He has also not addressed problems he saw (original animals dying off) but rather just tossed more animals in.
> My "walk away" comment stems from these things. If he does not care to learn from those with experience and knowledge regarding different aspects of this project, it is best to just walk away as it's simply going to become another argument.


I appreciate your post but I have never ever seen any agression like this on the part of my current crabs. This is nice and looks cool but who says that you are the great and powerful expert to come here and bash me ideas? This tank has been setup for quite a while now with no real adverse effects. who is to say you are correct? How about you produce some kind of expert evidence such as a college degree in biology or zoology and then I will take your advice as intended. Otherwise, this is just an opinion.


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## intelsuit

tclipse said:


> Especially with only 4" of water. Not to mention:
> 
> -cory cats and African dwarf frogs do best in groups
> 
> -the guppies are toast if they get too close to the crabs
> 
> -fish flakes/drowned flies are not a nutritionally acceptable diet for aquatic frogs in the long term... especially with other aggressive bottom feeders (cory, pleco) in the tank competing for food.
> 
> (pipidae.org and multiple other sources, can't find a single site that outright recommends feeding them flake)
> 
> -aquatic frogs are perfect vectors for nasties that can transfer to dendros (i.e. chytrid), I wouldn't trust my darts anywhere near a pet store bought xenopus/hymenochirus...
> 
> -if it's a xenopus, most of the fish will get eaten as it grows, and it will probably try to swallow the cory and may get spined
> 
> -the majority of the newborn baby crabs will be eaten by the pleco/cory, and probably the frogs
> 
> -I wouldn't trust a pleco with aquatic frogs, plecos like sucking the slime off of other fish/critters... EDIT- as suspected: (Warning: Plecos and African Dwarf Frogs, Plecos and African dwarf frogs - talk to the frog)
> 
> 
> Did the pleco/cory already eat the shrimp you had in there last week?
> 
> 
> Also, how is it that you had one crab left on 1/8/12 when you added the tincs, then two crabs left on 1/20/12, and now back to one again? More importantly, shouldn't the fact that the crabs were dropping like flies be a sign to figure out what's wrong before adding more animals?
> 
> Lastly, you have also asked this question in multiple threads, and gotten the same answers each time -
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/77295-two-new-tinc-cobalts.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/72320-brand-new-55-looking-suggestions.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/77448-240g-starter.html#post686114
> 
> If you're not going to take the advice, why ask again? You're almost guaranteed to lose one or more of the remaining animals in that tank..... it's your own decision whether or not you're okay with that.


I am not sure if I am looking for advice or just simply relaying my experiences here. I guess what I am saying is that I don't need your permission to post here. I certainly don't need you bashing my ideas. I am not sure anyone here has enough experience with Geosesarma sp. to give that kind of advice. I know Brian's Tropicals has stated on his website that he keeps the crabs just like frogs and they seem to do fine. Mellowvision.com has these crabs and hasn't said anything to the contrary. I see alomst everyone posting info on PDF's. I am simply posting my experiences in my tank. Thanks for your advice.


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## intelsuit

Everyone... Seriously, thanks for the advice and comments. I appreciate the differing opinions.


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## Pumilo

intelsuit said:


> I appreciate your post but I have never ever seen any agression like this on the part of my current crabs. This is nice and looks cool but who says that you are the great and powerful expert to come here and bash me ideas? This tank has been setup for quite a while now with no real adverse effects. who is to say you are correct? How about you produce some kind of expert evidence such as a college degree in biology or zoology and then I will take your advice as intended. Otherwise, this is just an opinion.


You have actually stated several times in several different threads that your viv is only a few months old. A few months really does not qualify as quite a while. You also state "with no ill effects" which kind of flies in the face of you admitting is several different threads that almost all of your crabs died. Most of your animals dying within a few months actually qualifies as ill effects. There are people breeding them that say they have had them breeding for 2 years and counting http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/other-classifieds/63159-vampire-crabs.html so 3 months is not a natural life span. That's not an opinion. 
It does not take a college degree in biology or zoology to do a little research on each species you are trying to take care of. It does, however, take more than just asking at the pet shop. The vast majority of them want to sell you the animals and will tell you that they will be fine together.


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## Mer_

intelsuit said:


> I am not sure if I am looking for advice or just simply relaying my experiences here. I guess what I am saying is that I don't need your permission to post here. I certainly don't need you bashing my ideas. I am not sure anyone here has enough experience with Geosesarma sp. to give that kind of advice. I know Brian's Tropicals has stated on his website that he keeps the *crabs just like frogs* and they seem to do fine. Mellowvision.com has these crabs and hasn't said anything to the contrary. I see alomst everyone posting info on PDF's. I am simply posting my experiences in my tank. Thanks for your advice.


Just like frogs not necessarily with frogs, subtle difference.


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## eyeviper

Mer_ said:


> Just like frogs not necessarily with frogs, subtle difference.


Bingo. 
As a I hold a biology degree I am going to tell you straight up that they teach nothing of how to care for vampire crabs or the behavior of them etc in College. So, asking/ listening to a biology major with no experience in PDF's or vampire crabs would be even worse than listening to people with YEARS of experience in this hobby and on this forum. Which, from my quick browsing through your previous threads quite a few of those keepers have chimed in for you. The fact is, you have posted this same issue, questions, sharing your ideas thing in multiple other threads. You can post all you want... but why when you do not show any hint of using the information for the better of your animals? no one is refuting that mixed tanks can be done with good research and great design. But it sounds like you have neither. So, Take the advise of these knowledgeable people that have responded to your questions before, and the overwhelming majority view that vampire crabs of the genus Geosesarma have the capability to eat PDF's or cause stress. Especially to terrestrial specias such as D.tinctorius (they will be in contact with them a lot more). large specimens may not be eaten until the crab gets larger. That a 55 gallon is too small for all the other animals you have in there, and as already demonstrated by your own "experiments" that animals will die from but not limited to: wrong habitat, over crowding, predation from co-habitants, wrong food/ not enough and....bad husbandry. I am not an expert, not a zoologist (do have the Bio degree though) and I have not kept vampire crabs. I hope my summary has helped answer your question and I am a biology major so you should listen to me......


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## B-NICE

Not for nothing, but Doug is a respectable person on DB. He's on here day and all times a night. Doug knows what he is talking about. He doesn't have all of those THANKS & LIKES for nothing. If you are into animals, you don't have to do much research to know that Crabs will eat just about anything. If they hunt, they damn sure will scavenge. I'm interested in buying some of those crabs after seeing that youtube video.


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## frogparty

I have a college bio degree. The apparent lack of success yOu are havin keeping adult crabs alive is testament to the fact that not all is well. You would do better by your animals by separating them and providing a more species specific habitat for each. You seem to want to do whatever you want though, and it's really up to you, so go on with it. Just don't expect a lot of sympathy when your critters die and you don't get good breeding success.


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## Brotherly Monkey

intelsuit said:


> I am not sure if I am looking for advice or just simply relaying my experiences here. I guess what I am saying is that I don't need your permission to post here. I certainly don't need you bashing my ideas. I am not sure anyone here has enough experience with Geosesarma sp. to give that kind of advice. I know Brian's Tropicals has stated on his website that he keeps the crabs just like frogs and they seem to do fine. Mellowvision.com has these crabs and hasn't said anything to the contrary. I see alomst everyone posting info on PDF's. I am simply posting my experiences in my tank. Thanks for your advice.


If nothing else, please research the issues concerning chytrid and clawed frogs


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## tclipse

intelsuit said:


> I am not sure if I am looking for advice or just simply relaying my experiences here. I guess what I am saying is that I don't need your permission to post here. I certainly don't need you bashing my ideas. I am not sure anyone here has enough experience with Geosesarma sp. to give that kind of advice.


I wasn't "bashing your ideas," I was letting you know what issues you may come across with links to information and experiences from others..... huge difference. I've worked with all of the aquatic species you've listed, and if you don't heed the advice (particularly not feeding the fish/aquatic frog) you'll lose more animals. I'm also stating the obvious- you either bought WC crabs in poor health or there's something going on with the tank/husbandry if you've lost 5/6 crabs, definitely something you should try to figure out so your frogs don't die too.


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## intelsuit

Ok so I didn't do it right the first time. They were in a 10 gallon tank with very little land mass and lots of water. In my own opinion, it was a mess and certainly not something I am proud of doing. Several crabs did die and I actually do feel bad about that. I want to keep different species and see how they do. I have read a lot since then and I have read many posts here and on other sites. That is why I set this 55 up in the first place. That is also why I have started keeping a journal of sorts here to share my experiences. Trust me I am not looking to "buy and kill". Not only is that cruel but certainly a waste of money. The fact that the previous crabs died was certainly a bad thing. However, they did reproduce and I now have at least 6 juveniles in the tank that all started out about as small as a fruit fly (once I noticed them) and have survived to about 1/4" carapace and seemingly doing well means that I have certainly learned something about providing the correct environment; albeit not the perfect home for the inhabitants in your opinion.

For the record, I am sorry for responding somewhat harshly to Doug and the others for their remarks. I appreciate the feedback. I simply was relaying my experiences in an environment (here on the board) that I thought would appreciate the sharing of my experiences. Despite your earlier remarks I am going to continue posting here and letting you know what I discover in my endeavor. Your advice is certainly still welcome and encouraged. I certainly hope we can all learn from this experience.


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## Ed

intelsuit said:


> I appreciate your post but I have never ever seen any agression like this on the part of my current crabs. This is nice and looks cool but who says that you are the great and powerful expert to come here and bash me ideas? This tank has been setup for quite a while now with no real adverse effects. who is to say you are correct? How about you produce some kind of expert evidence such as a college degree in biology or zoology and then I will take your advice as intended. Otherwise, this is just an opinion.


Well.. how does almost 19 years working in a Zoo as a professional zookeeper rank on that list? 

Given the fact that you have lost several animals for unexplained reasons, I have to say that adding more animals is irresponsible at best. If there were no adverse effects then you should not be losing animals that quickly.. That is a strong indication that something is not correct and in an institution would require a review of not only the husbandry but all of the enviromental parameters. 

As a second problem you are mixing animals from very different parts of the earth which given the emerging issues on novel pathogens particularly of those impacting anurans (and the potential fall out from irresponsibility given the rule change up for review by USF&W) is not appropriate. 

I had stayed out of it since these issues have been repeatedly discussed on the forum but it appears I needed to add some comments.. 

Ed


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## intelsuit

Ed said:


> Well.. how does almost 19 years working in a Zoo as a professional zookeeper rank on that list?
> 
> Given the fact that you have lost several animals for unexplained reasons, I have to say that adding more animals is irresponsible at best. If there were no adverse effects then you should not be losing animals that quickly.. That is a strong indication that something is not correct and in an institution would require a review of not only the husbandry but all of the enviromental parameters.
> 
> As a second problem you are mixing animals from very different parts of the earth which given the emerging issues on novel pathogens particularly of those impacting anurans (and the potential fall out from irresponsibility given the rule change up for review by USF&W) is not appropriate.
> 
> I had stayed out of it since these issues have been repeatedly discussed on the forum but it appears I needed to add some comments..
> 
> Ed


Thank you very much for chiming in here. I have actually heard about you and read your posts. I respect your opinion. Loosing animals was from my 10 gallon tank. Maybe I should have clarified better. My apologies. Given the size of the 55 gallon tank, knowing that there are plenty of places to hide, is this such a horrible idea? What are your recommendations? What more should I do to ensure that the inhabitants are happy and healthy?
The previous posts indicated that no one had tried this before (keeping crabs, with frogs) so I thought I would try it. Also, in my ignorance, up until about 2 weeks ago, I had only seen one male crab in the tank. He is very reclusive and so I got tired of looking at a decorated viv without any inhabitants. Oh sure there are the fish in the water but certainly more terrestrial places and only one crab that I could see. That is when I decided to buy the two tincs back in December of 2011. I only discovered the juvenile crabs in the tank about a week and a half ago, when I noticed movement at the bottom of the tank and realized that it wasn't a frog or a fish because I could see them all at the time. That is when I went on a hunt to discover how many other crabs there were in the tank. I can honestly say I can confirm 6 in the tank including the adult male.
I will listen to your sage advice and make the changes that I can to ensure my pets will be happy. Thanks in advance.


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## Pumilo

Ed, can we perhaps have a definition of a Novel Pathogen at a very dumbed down level? Something even I can understand? As I understand it as far as it affects us here, it is a pathogen that has changed or evolved, if you will, to be able to live in different conditions than it originally did. Further, it can now affect different animals than it used to be able to. So by putting together animals from different parts of the world, you may be responsible for creating a novel pathogen. This pathogen can then escape when you flush some waste water down the drain, trim your plants, or just transfer to your sleeve and then be brought outside. If I'm grasping this correctly, this may be how chytrid was originated and is wiping out amphibians across the planet. Do I have this right (at a very basic level), Ed? If so, this should explain why this project is not a good idea.

To the OP, can you please clarify? I don't understand your statement that all the other crabs died in your 10 gallon viv. You state that there is one adult male crab in your 55 gallon viv. If you only put one adult male crab into this viv, how did you get baby crabs?


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## Ed

intelsuit said:


> Thank you very much for chiming in here. I have actually heard about you and read your posts. I respect your opinion. Loosing animals was from my 10 gallon tank. Maybe I should have clarified better. My apologies. Given the size of the 55 gallon tank, knowing that there are plenty of places to hide, is this such a horrible idea? What are your recommendations?


As I've mentioned occasionally before now.. size of the enclosure doesn't necessarily translate into suitable habitat for one much less multiple species of animals. As I've noted before as an extreme hypothetical example, you could have a 30 by 30 foot room but if all of the suitable habitat is in a 2 by 2 area, that is where all of the animals are going to try to move into and hold. Hiding places, visual barriers are all secondary to the basic layout of the enclosure. If the suitable habitat isn't present then it doesn't matter how many hiding areas are present or not as these are not the primary needs of the vast majority of animals. Often people who don't have a lot of experience attempt to compensate for this by taking the "lets see who makes it approach", which many of us see as a problem (and part of the hostility here) and it can be considered to be of questionable ethics. When you want to try a multispecies enclosure, you have to design the enclosure appropriately for each animal. You have to be able to evaluate the habitats you are attempting to set up and see if any conflict or simply can't be accomplished with the enclosure at hand. Simply putting together an enclosure that is aesthetically appealing doesn't mean that is is suitable for any animal. Failing to understand the limitations of suitable habitats is one of the greatest reasons people have problems with thier enclosures. As I've said before in various incarnations, it really doesn't matter if it is a 20 gallon or a 2000 gallon aquarium. If the correct habitat isn't present it isn't going to work well (or at all!). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Ed, can we perhaps have a definition of a Novel Pathogen at a very dumbed down level? Something even I can understand? As I understand it as far as it affects us here, it is a pathogen that has changed or evolved, if you will, to be able to live in different conditions than it originally did. Further, it can now affect different animals than it used to be able to. So by putting together animals from different parts of the world, you may be responsible for creating a novel pathogen. This pathogen can then escape when you flush some waste water down the drain, trim your plants, or just transfer to your sleeve and then be brought outside. If I'm grasping this correctly, this may be how chytrid was originated and is wiping out amphibians across the planet. Do I have this right (at a very basic level), Ed? If so, this should explain why this project is not a good idea.
> 
> To the OP, can you please clarify? I don't understand your statement that all the other crabs died in your 10 gallon viv. You state that there is one adult male crab in your 55 gallon viv. If you only put one adult male crab into this viv, how did you get baby crabs?


There are several different meanings.. 
1) pathogens/parasites that an animal may not have been in contact with before (examples, ATV (Ambystoma Tiger salamander Virus) being moved into tiger salamander populations that hadn't been exposed to it before) 
2) pathogens/parasites that are novel to science (classic examples are ebola, SARS)
3) pathogens/parasites that have evolved into a new form/species (examples are *E*. *coli* 0157:H7 or possibly chytridmycosis (some of the new data)). 

Does that help? 

In the case above, I'm referring to number 1 and 3. 

Ed


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## cbreon

intelsuit said:


> Thank you very much for chiming in here. I have actually heard about you and read your posts. I respect your opinion. Loosing animals was from my 10 gallon tank. Maybe I should have clarified better. My apologies. Given the size of the 55 gallon tank, knowing that there are plenty of places to hide, is this such a horrible idea? What are your recommendations? What more should I do to ensure that the inhabitants are happy and healthy?
> The previous posts indicated that no one had tried this before (keeping crabs, with frogs) so I thought I would try it. Also, in my ignorance, up until about 2 weeks ago, I had only seen one male crab in the tank. He is very reclusive and so I got tired of looking at a decorated viv without any inhabitants. Oh sure there are the fish in the water but certainly more terrestrial places and only one crab that I could see. That is when I decided to buy the two tincs back in December of 2011. I only discovered the juvenile crabs in the tank about a week and a half ago, when I noticed movement at the bottom of the tank and realized that it wasn't a frog or a fish because I could see them all at the time. That is when I went on a hunt to discover how many other crabs there were in the tank. I can honestly say I can confirm 6 in the tank including the adult male.
> I will listen to your sage advice and make the changes that I can to ensure my pets will be happy. Thanks in advance.


While you have expressed an interest in hearing professional opinions, there are chunk of people on this site that have kept fish, reptiles, amphibians, insects, and more for decades. We have talked to zookeepers, biologists, zoologists, animal experts, and spent countless hours reading on the animals we keep and animals in general. 

The reason that many of us comment is for many reasons. Whether we want to prevent you from making mistakes others have made in the past, mistakes we have made ourselves, or were trying to prevent someone from hurting animals or themselves, it all with good intentions. So this idea to cast aside someone's comments b/c they don't have relevant course study work is nonsense. All that being said, Ed just said exactly what many of us had said throughout this post. You might want to look back through the comments and think about that before you earn a reputation as someone who people don't want to help.


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## intelsuit

Pumilo said:


> To the OP, can you please clarify? I don't understand your statement that all the other crabs died in your 10 gallon viv. You state that there is one adult male crab in your 55 gallon viv. If you only put one adult male crab into this viv, how did you get baby crabs?


Sorry yes, you deserve clarification. When the crabs were in the 10 g tank, they had babies. I transferred what babies I could see along with the existing crabs and several logs I had in the tank to their new habitat. I made a mistake as well on bad advice, that a female fiddler would be fine with them because she was a crab as well. I was told in no uncertain terms that she was probably the reason I didn't see the babies because she is a huge predator. I moved the female fiddler out of the tank to my 40 gallon aquarium. After that i only ever saw the male vamp. I never saw any juveniles until about 12 days ago.


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## intelsuit

carbonetc said:


> Have the tincs eaten any baby crabs that you know of?


To answer your question most of the inhabitants are juveniles. So no I haven't seen any losses at this point. Time and maturity will tell.


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## intelsuit

cbreon said:


> While you have expressed an interest in hearing professional opinions, there are chunk of people on this site that have kept fish, reptiles, amphibians, insects, and more for decades. We have talked to zookeepers, biologists, zoologists, animal experts, and spent countless hours reading on the animals we keep and animals in general.
> 
> The reason that many of us comment is for many reasons. Whether we want to prevent you from making mistakes others have made in the past, mistakes we have made ourselves, or were trying to prevent someone from hurting animals or themselves, it all with good intentions. So this idea to cast aside someone's comments b/c they don't have relevant course study work is nonsense. All that being said, Ed just said exactly what many of us had said throughout this post. You might want to look back through the comments and think about that before you earn a reputation as someone who people don't want to help.


You are correct and I am sorry I commented in such a manner. This should have been a discussion not an attack. Reading many of the posts I became upset because it started to feel like a personal attack rather than a discussion. Sure I've made mistakes, let those who haven't cast the first stone. 
I think the place that it went wrong was the posting of the crab being a predator on the cricket video. Yes that could happen, however no on has said that they had kept crabs with tincs it seemed to me that they were offering advice as gospel rather than advice. But that is history... I'm going to forgive and forget but as someone wise once said what happens on the net stays on the net. So, I'm going to keep posting and giving updates and letting you know how it goes. Time will tell if frogs with crabs is a good idea. Thanks.


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## ckays

Doug, Ed, and many others have given you very good reasons why it is not a good idea. You are going to do what you want which is fine, but you don't need time to know this isn't a good idea. 

Just because the animals may survive does not make it a good idea. Survial is easily achieved; caring for a thriving animal is more complicated.


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## Shinosuke

Mitch said:


> Please don't add frogs to that tank. It sounds like there's enough in there already. That Pleco is bound to outgrow your water area very soon.


My $.02, not all plecos grow into 18 inch monsters. There are quite a few smaller species, such as the rather common bushy or bristle nose pleco, that typically only grow to about 6 inches or so. That being said, they can still be territorial and I wouldn't recommend housing them with aquatic frogs.


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## intelsuit

Thanks for all the advice. I took your advice and actually fed the water inhabitants fish flakes and sinking shrimp pellets. I did the usual feeding of dusted fruitflies in the tank as well. You were right that we don't survive on just one or two types of food then why should I expect them to survive on springtails and dusted fruitflies.
I read last night that a longer light cycle would not harm the inhabitants and actually help the plants. This morning I changed the light cycle to turn on at 6 AM and off at 10 PM.
As I was looking aroung the tank this morning I noticed a few fry guppies. It appears that the two guppies have decided to reproduce.
I checked the tank again just before I left for work. The light had been on for about an hour by that point. The frogs were active and eating flies. The crabs down in the lava rock weren't very active yet. I haven't seen the adult male crab for about 36 hours now but, as I have said before, he is very reclusive. Life is good in the tank.


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## intelsuit

So I did some maintenance to the pump in the bottom of the tank since it had not been flowing properly for a few weeks. Now it is flowing I think Ghost, the male vampire crab, is attracted to the water flow. I saw him this morning and he was still out this evening when I got home. The frogs seem to be more active as well. Both tincs have moved around the tank more than before. I fed the tank this morning and I fed them again this evening. So far everyone in the tank seems active and happy. Ghost has definitely discovered the crabs and vice versa. So far no losses. I don't expect any either at this point. The juvenile crabs all seem to be doing well. Several of the plants are growing new leaves as well.


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## curlykid

I used to put fish in four inches of water, then I took an arrow to the knee.


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## mikestra

intelsuit said:


> Sorry yes, you deserve clarification. When the crabs were in the 10 g tank, they had babies. I transferred what babies I could see along with the existing crabs and several logs I had in the tank to their new habitat. I made a mistake as well on bad advice, that a female fiddler would be fine with them because she was a crab as well. I was told in no uncertain terms that she was probably the reason I didn't see the babies because she is a huge predator. I moved the female fiddler out of the tank to my 40 gallon aquarium. After that i only ever saw the male vamp. I never saw any juveniles until about 12 days ago.


I am sorry, I don't post here that often, but have browsed these boards for 5+ years. I am no expert by any means, but do you even research the animals you choose to keep before you purchase them? Do you even know which species of fiddler crab you decided to add to you Geosesarma Sp. crabs? Are you aware that most common fiddler crabs come from a semi-terrestrial, mostly sandy environment close to salt or brackish water? And from what I understand most Geosesarma crabs are completely terrestrial and need a fresh water environment. I apologize if I come off rude, but I feel you should do your research and ask plenty of questions _*before*_ you choose you jump headfirst into a hobby.


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## Brotherly Monkey

curlykid said:


> I used to put fish in four inches of water, then I took an arrow to the knee.


lol


PS OP, did you ever research the chytrid issues concerning clawed frogs?


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## intelsuit

mikestra said:


> I am sorry, I don't post here that often, but have browsed these boards for 5+ years. I am no expert by any means, but do you even research the animals you choose to keep before you purchase them? Do you even know which species of fiddler crab you decided to add to you Geosesarma Sp. crabs? Are you aware that most common fiddler crabs come from a semi-terrestrial, mostly sandy environment close to salt or brackish water? And from what I understand most Geosesarma crabs are completely terrestrial and need a fresh water environment. I apologize if I come off rude, but I feel you should do your research and ask plenty of questions _*before*_ you choose you jump headfirst into a hobby.


For the record, the fiddler crab is no longer in the 55. It is currently in the 40 gallon aquarium upstairs in a totally different tank so I think it's ok now.


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## intelsuit

Brotherly Monkey said:


> lol
> 
> 
> PS OP, did you ever research the chytrid issues concerning clawed frogs?


I did some research. The following link is interesting to say the least. Thanks.
http://www.ccadc.us/docs/AmphibianDiseaseBrochure.pdf


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## intelsuit

So I am watching the tank tonight. It is fascinating to me to just watch the frogs and the crabs to see what new things develop. Several times Ghost crawled past the frogs and didn't even try to be aggressive. No aggression at all that I could see on the part of the frogs either. They were both observing each other and eating flies. It appears that they are apathetic towards each other.


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## ckays

intelsuit said:


> So I am watching the tank tonight. It is fascinating to me to just watch the frogs and the crabs to see what new things develop. Several times Ghost crawled past the frogs and didn't even try to be aggressive. No aggression at all that I could see on the part of the frogs either. They were both observing each other and eating flies. It appears that they are apathetic towards each other.


As the frog says to the crab: "I reckon yer not from this side a town are yer"

I would continue your research, a two page "brochure" barely scrapes the surface of the depth of information I would want to have if attempting this. Are you familiar with how the two species exhibit aggressive/defensive behavior and confident you would be able to recognize such behaviors?


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## motydesign

i looked through all 34 posts of yours and couldnt find one pic.

mind throwing something up for us to see? id like to see this tank.


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## intelsuit

try this...
Paludarium | Facebook


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## ckays

Those pics are fairly difficult to "interpet," but from what I can see, I have concerns about how much useable land is in there. Also it appears to lack what I would consider an adequate amount of leaf litter for the frogs comfort. 

Tough to tell from the pics though... very purply..


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## intelsuit

I just added a few more with the lid open from the top down perspective. I also added one of Ghost (the male vampire crab) as well. Not a really good one because he was hiding in the corner underneath a log.


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## intelsuit

Both frogs are dead. They died last weekend. One on Saturday the other on Sunday. You were right. I am sorry. I will build another viv before trying frogs again. Thanks for all the advice. I will also buy from local breeders instead of pet stores.
In the future...
What are some signs of a healthy frog?
What is absolutely needed in a viv for health and survival?
What is the best ff culture you have found?
How do you heat your tanks without putting them in a special room?

I am sure I will have more questions later. Thanks for your advice and assistance. Please accept my sincere apology for anything I might have said because it was said in ignorance and stupidity. Thanks again.


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## unc-usf-fsu

So sorry to hear that your frogs died. 

As for the questions you have asked that best thing I can tell you is to go back into the forums and read all the stickys and care sheets, and then read them again a few times. Do searches for whatever it is you are looking for, you may find way more then you were looking for but try and read it all. 

The best thing I can say is take your time and do not be in to much a hurry. 

Good luck and hope your next try goes better.

Adam


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## Shinosuke

Sorry to hear it.
Did a crab get them, disease, starvation, ...?


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## Pumilo

intelsuit said:


> Both frogs are dead. They died last weekend. One on Saturday the other on Sunday. You were right. I am sorry. I will build another viv before trying frogs again. Thanks for all the advice. I will also buy from local breeders instead of pet stores.
> In the future...
> What are some signs of a healthy frog?
> What is absolutely needed in a viv for health and survival?
> What is the best ff culture you have found?
> How do you heat your tanks without putting them in a special room?
> 
> I am sure I will have more questions later. Thanks for your advice and assistance. Please accept my sincere apology for anything I might have said because it was said in ignorance and stupidity. Thanks again.


I'm sorry that you had to learn the hard way on this. Glad to see you are ready to start taking advice from people with experience. This board is a valuable tool in the care of dart frogs.
Look here for signs of a sick frog.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/16433-emergency-supportive-care.html
Start here for some basic care requirements.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/25053-frog-safety-101-a.html
And of course Kyle's (site owner) list of recommended threads for beginners. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/11865-good-threads-read-beginners.html
_What is the best ff culture you have found?_ I'm not sure what you mean by this. The best fruit fly TO culture? I like Turkish Gliders. They are a great fly to start with. If you do bigger frogs like your Azureus  you may like to learn to do Hydei flies too. If you meant the best ff MEDIA to culture with there are many good ones but we have to be careful of feedback. Feedback is not allowed here. Personally, I like a recipe that uses Methyl Paraben and does NOT use vinegar. Here is a nice thread on culturing.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/62277-guide-making-ff-cultures.html
You will also want to start culturing some types of microfauna. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html
Tanks are best heated by heating the room they are in. They can also be heated by putting a standard glass fish tank heater in the false bottom area or pond but make sure it stays submerged. They can also be heated with an under tank heater taped to the back wall. They can break the glass if used under the tank.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/78335-under-tank-heater-placement.html

That should keep you busy for 15 minutes or so.


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## intelsuit

Shinosuke said:


> Sorry to hear it.
> Did a crab get them, disease, starvation, ...?


Not sure actually. The symptoms were they started getting thinner, didn't seem to want to eat. They started showing signs of lethargy, moving slow, legs out and not tucked up, almost crawling around. Kind of like us if we are really sick and we just lay around and don't do anything. Both I saw down in the water in the bottom of the tank. Obviously drowned, but certainly not the original cause. It is very sad.
On a lighter note the crabs seem to be growing an thriving. The juveniles seem to be growing well. Ghost, the male, seems to be more active lately. I have have seen him crusing around the tank just picking at things here and there. One day he sat for about 5 minutes in one spot. It appeared that he was eating springtails. Odd though, there were plenty of fruit flies wandering around on and underneath him while he sat there.


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## Ed

from Chytridiomycosis



> _Bd_ infection is suspected when dead or dying frogs are found (though other pathogens can also cause mortality: see the AmphibiaWeb overview of amphibian diseases page). Clinical signs of severe chytridiomycosis in post-metamorphic frogs (juveniles and adults) include lack of appetite, lethargy, abnormal posture with hind legs extended, and lack of righting reflex (Berger et al. 2005);


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## intelsuit

Ed said:


> from Chytridiomycosis


So how quickly does this disease work? I read that it has existed for millions of years. I have read that these frogs were hardy. Are all pdf's susceptible to it? I want to do frogs in the future but I am not sure if I have the discipline or enough knowledge to keep the viv 'hospital' or lab quality sterile as it seems that it has to be for survival. Am I being overly cautious or worried?


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## Brotherly Monkey

intelsuit said:


> So how quickly does this disease work? I read that it has existed for millions of years. I have read that these frogs were hardy. Are all pdf's susceptible to it? I want to do frogs in the future but I am not sure if I have the discipline or enough knowledge to keep the viv 'hospital' or lab quality sterile as it seems that it has to be for survival. Am I being overly cautious or worried?


1) If you actually took the time to research the topic of chytrid, like many recommended, then you would know chytrid represents a threat to a number of amphibians, regardless of general captive hardiness

2) not sure where you got the idea about "hospital" or "lab" quality sterility, but that is definitely not the case. In fact, there are numerous threads, posted here all the time, discussing the many random things that pop up in the average viv. 

Your problem was that you ignored common sense advice; like not mixing a known vector for a disease with a species that's susceptible to said disease. Also, apparently, your idea of "research" is reading a pamphlet that was maybe a hundreds words total, and didn't really deal with the specifics of your situation


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## intelsuit

I really had hoped that the maturity level of this thread had improved beyond insulting me for trying something new, but I guess not. I am asking questions for a better understanding.


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## frogparty

Youre asking questions thawt have been answered on this forum at least 100 times. If you showed ytou were researching these topics on your own, you might get a better overall response


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## Brotherly Monkey

intelsuit said:


> I really had hoped that the maturity level of this thread had improved beyond insulting me for trying something new, but I guess not. I am asking questions for a better understanding.


I didn't insult you, I pointed to the fact that the issues weren't due to what you read (like you indicate above), but you ignoring recommendations here and your poor research skills (sorry reading a 100 word pamphlet, that has nothing to do with the specifics of your circumstances, isn't "research")


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## Brotherly Monkey

frogparty said:


> Youre asking questions thawt have been answered on this forum at least 100 times. If you showed ytou were researching these topics on your own, you might get a better overall response


hell, they were issues addressed in this very thread


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## Ed

intelsuit said:


> So how quickly does this disease work? I read that it has existed for millions of years. I have read that these frogs were hardy. Are all pdf's susceptible to it? I want to do frogs in the future but I am not sure if I have the discipline or enough knowledge to keep the viv 'hospital' or lab quality sterile as it seems that it has to be for survival. Am I being overly cautious or worried?


I'm going to be blunt here.. There is a huge amount of information out there on chytridmycosis that is accurate and relevent (including a lot of discussions on it on this forum). I'm not sure where you got the quote that it has been around for millions of years since the chytrid fungus that causes the disease appears to have emerged somewhere around 1950 (when it was first found in historical museum collections)... so you may want to get away from those sources... 
As to how fast it acts depends on a number of factors including but not limited to 1) temperature, 2) level of exposure, 3) type of amphibian, 4) stress level of the amphibian... If the frog is infected it can die within days if the temperatures are in the zone for the fungus. 

As for whether it can kill all dendrobatid frogs, the answer is yes.. there are actually only a relatively few species that seem to be able to tolerate the infection... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## eyeviper

Ok...lets move on from this topics as it does not help the OP. Intelsuit..this is not an insult but it is a great resource to use which is the search button. you will find everything you need to know. you are learning I hope..I will attach some threads where you can start your knowledge. you can do anything you want and try new things but take a lot of consideration before doing so not because we get annoyed but for the animals involve, and your wallet. kudos to you for continuing to post, it shows you want to care. so here is some stuff to read and look at and hopefully you can make a viv thread and show us your new leaf. we are all more than willing to help thats why we come on here just dont throw it all in our faces...you already know the feeling. I dont speak for everyone as i am just me but if you post I will attempt to answer in a constructive way. 

lets start with how to feed your friends-

how to culture fruit flies 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/18630-fruit-fly-culturing-mini-howto.html

isopod cultures-
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/46452-how-i-culture-woodlice-isopods.html

more recipes
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/4353-home-made-mix.html

how often to feed-
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/9923-how-many-times-week-do-you-feed-your-frogs.html

Now for enclosure construction (there are a million ways to do this)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/25053-frog-safety-101-a.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/17993-my-top-10-beginner-mistakes.html

you had tincs so here is a good care page-
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14606-dendrobates-azureus-tinctorius-novice.html

here is how to make a vert tank 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/27889-making-pdf-vertical-tank-3d-background.html

this is just a sweet one 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/65988-peninsula.html

mine- 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/76651-40-breeder-d-azureus.html

Water care- 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/24397-misting-ro-vs-tap-water.html

and a bunch more 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/11865-good-threads-read-beginners.html

you may have already looked a bunch but here they are again.


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## intelsuit

Thanks for this post as it does help a lot.
As a side note, I now have this stuff in the top corners of my tank where the frogs used to hang out a lot. The best thing I can describe is that it looks like sprayed on Elmer's glue. It is white like Elmer's glue and has spread to about a 3 inch radius. It is not fuzzy like regular mold. It looks like Elmer's glue. Any ideas?


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## fieldnstream

It could be the remnants of shed skin/mucous...kind of crinkly and glossy? I've found shed handprints before, kind of startling the first time.


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## srrrio

It most likely is a slime mold, very common.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2097598

l

Sally


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## Pumilo

Slime mold was my first thought.


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## intelsuit

I guess that is what it is after looking at the pics. Are there different variations? I have had it before in other areas before the frogs but never this thick and white. I guess my major concern is, if it is harmful or should I be worried? I am never going to put frogs back in this viv. because I don't know for sure that it was something in the viv that killed them or if they were infected before. I mad the mistake of not putting them in quarentine first.
Does anyone know if this mold is harmful to the crabs?


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## ckays

I highly doubt it is harmful to the crabs. Easily answered with the search function...

Bluntly, 

C


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## eyeviper

most likely not, good plan on no frogs in that thank...it means you get to build another one! hit up craigslist and find something and get building. most molds are harmless and will form in new vivs then recede. the slim molds or they can be algaes seem to form in constant wet areas or sometimes where there is high organic matter. Most of us dont worry about it unless it persists for long periods. ensuring good microfauna in your PDF vivs will help immensely. check out spring/isopod culturing in my last post to start.


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## intelsuit

Just thought I would post a quick update to let you know how things are progressing. So the tank and its inhabitants still seem to be doing well. Now that the frogs are gone, Ghost (the male vampire crab) seems to be hiding a lot more. I just looked in the tank and found him near his usual hiding spot in the back. The juvenile crabs in the tank still seem to be growing bigger every day. I just counted 5 of them but I am sure that there are a few more hidden around.
I purchased about 5 crickets from the pet store the other day to see if Ghost will eat them. I think he has because I only have seen 2 crickets in the tank lately. I am still feeding a regular supply of fruit flies, fish flakes, and some occasional shrimp pellets as well just to give a variety of foods.
The guppies have decided to reproduce. I noticed a new little fish swimming amongst the lava rock in the bottom about a week ago. Today when I looked I saw it swimming out in the main area of water.
The plants are growing slowly, and sprouting new tiny leaves. All of my plants are either sprouting leaves or new roots or both.
Oh I almost forgot, the slimy white mold that started in two different places moved like a very slow wave radiating out about 5 inches then stopped and seems to wither and die. This all happened over a period of about a week. I haven't seen it reappear since then.
Life seems good and healthy in the 55 gallon.


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