# This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 8/2)



## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

The zeteki seem to be very pleased with their new display enclosure. Over the last week we've plumbed in an ultrasonic room humidifier that they really seem to appreciate. At any given time visitors can see three to eight proudly sitting out in the open.




























It seems they like the new setup so much that they decided to drop a few eggs in the water. The bottom of the tank is absolutely littered with tads. unfortunately since these offspring aren't supposed to be breeding the tads will have to culled after they morph.



















This isn't anything special but in my spare time this afternoon I tore down and threw together a new auratus exhibit. They had taken to hiding in the tank fixtures and it was to the point that you would swear there were none in there. The new tank is made up of mostly donated cutting and broms (THANKS EVERYONE!!) so hopefully it grows in nicely. As I was leaving I noticed one of the little guys had a nasty puncture on his snout that was bleeding quite a bit. He should heal up nicely but they'll have to learn to be careful around those sharp broms if they want to keep em


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

those zeteki tads have great coloration!!!
Can't you share them with other zoological facilities?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

Hey Lee,

Whats the deal with culling them? An agreement with the lending government? Sounds like something similar to the original terribilis agreement. Just seems like such a waste.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

man, that sucks, that they have to be culled, sneak a bunch of tads out for conservation, i really wonder what the likely hood in the wild woudl be that offsprings would find each other a mate? i am sure it is a lot higher then we think, so keep them alive.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*



stemcellular said:


> Hey Lee,
> 
> Whats the deal with culling them? An agreement with the lending government?


Yes. They can only be released to other zoological or similar institutions.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

The culling has little to do with the fact that they're siblings. AZA institution have to follow the guidelines of the captive management plan set forth by the Studbook Manager.

Its my understanding that the ownership of these animals belongs to the CITES permit holder (in this case to The Maryland Zoo in Baltimore) and not to the Republic of Panama. There is however a Memorandum of Understanding that the imported animals and their offspring are only placed on loan to other AZA institutions. 

"This restriction is intended to prevent the protected species from entering the pet trade via captive zoo breeding, potentially creating a situation in which wild-caught illegal specimens could be “laundered” under the guise of coming from legal “zoo stock,” as has happened with other species of amphibians. Once this situation begins, it is impossible to stop and the remaining wild populations become even more at risk of being collected and traded illegally."


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

As someone that drafts MOUs for a living (ha!) I totally understand. However, that doesn't preclude the offspring from being sent to other AZA institutions, right? Why not send them out to other U.S. institutions? Is it a question of resources, logistics?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

I think at this point all the eligible institutions are well supplied with them as it is. They breed like rabbits.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

well that's good to hear!


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## Logqan (Sep 24, 2008)

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I work at Scovill Zoo in Illinois, I wish we could take them off your hands...its too bad our guy in charge of herps is a herper who doesn't like frogs. He is all gators and pythons and boas. Ive been dropping the hints for frogs but best I got was mobil zoo rana clamitans


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

Great pics (as usual) Lee! Very cool frogs! Keep up the good work with them!


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

...[QUOTE "This restriction is intended to prevent the protected species from entering the pet trade via captive zoo breeding, potentially creating a situation in which wild-caught illegal specimens could be “laundered” under the guise of coming from legal “zoo stock,” as has happened with other species of amphibians. Once this situation begins, it is impossible to stop and the remaining wild populations become even more at risk of being collected and traded illegally."[/QUOTE]

i was under the impression that the last population was already collected, and there are no more known wild Atelopus zeteki. or was that another species i was thinking about?


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*



basshummper said:


> ...[QUOTE "This restriction is intended to prevent the protected species from entering the pet trade via captive zoo breeding, potentially creating a situation in which wild-caught illegal specimens could be “laundered” under the guise of coming from legal “zoo stock,” as has happened with other species of amphibians. Once this situation begins, it is impossible to stop and the remaining wild populations become even more at risk of being collected and traded illegally."





> i was under the impression that the last population was already collected, and there are no more known wild Atelopus zeteki. or was that another species i was thinking about?




was just about to say the same thing... 
that is the right species, the last known wild population was collected... or at least the last known wild population that they are willing to admit they know about for fear of people discovering it then pillaging it...


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*



Link3898 said:


> or at least the last known wild population that they are willing to admit they know about for fear of people discovering it then pillaging it...


Thats the way I interpret it


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## peter (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

and what about shipping them to europe or australia?


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## peter (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

i think a lot of zoos over there will be interested


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*



peter said:


> i think a lot of zoos over there will be interested


The agreement is restricted to the USA AZA institutions as there was concern over other institutions allowing the animals out in violation of the agreement. Some European Zoos have allowed confiscated animals and/or thier offspring to be released to the hobby. 

Ed


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

Thanks for adding that info Ed. 

Like all things, past abuses tighten the current regulations and agreements in place.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*



bellerophon said:


> Thats the way I interpret it


As of 2007, I met a researcher who knew of a few remaining populations still out there in Panama, but are pretty far from human habitation. I have no idea how current that is or what, but I would be extremely surprised if there were truly no more of these critters left in the wild. With how small they are and the extensive network of streams in Panama, I can't believe that they're truly all gone.

It's very unfortunate that the offspring have to be culled and that these breed so well that they get to that point, and that the zoos can do anything at the time to reintroduce them.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

It seems like I saw a pretty recent documentary with a fellow that took the camera crew to a very remote population. He had made the camera crew turn off the cameras until they arrived at the location for fear of the location being discovered.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

keep in mind that the offspring will still be beneficial in their own way and not simply culled at the first opportunity; If that were the case the tank would have just been left drained as soon as the eggs were seen. Its encouraged to use them to practice husbandry techniques and explore new methods.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

Seems very odd to me that it would be legal to cull a frog that is on the brink of extinction?? Could these frogs not be introduced back into the wild?

That has got to be the hardest thing for you to do. I feel for you!


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*



MonarchzMan said:


> As of 2007, I met a researcher who knew of a few remaining populations still out there in Panama, but are pretty far from human habitation. I have no idea how current that is or what, but I would be extremely surprised if there were truly no more of these critters left in the wild. With how small they are and the extensive network of streams in Panama, I can't believe that they're truly all gone.


They are still found in the wild. The press and media (and some academics) have really jumped on the idea that this species is completely, 110% extinct in the wild...but it's simply not true. Whether or not those remaining populations are viable remains to be seen, but there are some zeteki still out there (the next issue of Leaf Litter will have a bit more on this).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*



Jellyman said:


> Seems very odd to me that it would be legal to cull a frog that is on the brink of extinction?? Could these frogs not be introduced back into the wild?
> 
> That has got to be the hardest thing for you to do. I feel for you!


Not at this time unless you consider introducing them to potentially die due to chytridmycosis an acceptable practice. 

The reason they have to cull is to manage the populations and allow for zoos that do not have practice rearing the toads to get experience with them. There is a limited amount of space in the Zoos to house this species. If the offspring were not culled then the available space would rapidly be taken up by the offspring. This would prevent breeding to ensure sufficient genetic diversity to support the maximum genetic variability for the long haul in case conditions improve to allow the toads to be reintroduced. 
And simply preventing the toads from breeding could also put the toads in danger due to retained eggs and prolapsed eggs. 
This way those Zoos that need experience in rearing them are allowed to breed toads that are currently surplus to the genetic management program because if something goes wrong it doesn't threaten the genes of the whole population. 

Ed


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

Here's some newer pics

**little bit of nose rub on this guy



























**tads are still munching away on diatoms









**tank fogger doing its thing









**mossie









**new tank set up for the mossy frogs


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 3/15)*

Awesome pics as usual! I REALLY like the "fogger" pic - it reminds me of Degobah from Star Wars - haha!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 3/15)*

yoda... you seek yoda


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 3/15)*

Good stuff Lee and thanks for sharing.


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## maych27 (Mar 12, 2009)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 3/15)*

beautiful frogs. wow!


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 3/15)*

A few more fresh from the zoo, enjoy


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 4/5)*

You take very nice pictures. Very professional looking!!


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 3/15)*

Have you Done anything with the mossy viv yet?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 3/15)*

Thanks Jelly, I've been working on it for a while now 

No, I haven't really even started on the "cave" viv for the mossies. For now they've been happy in the enclosure pictured a page back. I'll probably end up repurposing the supplies toward one of the other tanks as the current one displays the frogs really well.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 4/5)*

no frogs this time but I did manage to snag an amphibian outside 

These little guys were just three days old. We offered them food before their first shed which isn't known to be easy. They seemed to take the pinkie (heads) just fine. viciousness little things, this one managed to get about 12 good bites outta my hand. so cute.



























Redback found outside under a rock


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## KMSReptiles (Jan 17, 2009)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 4/5)*

Great post keep the pics coming...Show us more on the mossies..
Kevin Stoltz


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 4/5)*

Its been a while so here's a couple more. It was a busy weekend so I didn't have the camera out much


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 4/5)*

nice shot of the emperor newt!! love the gila monster


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 5/26)*

A few more

Cuban Croc














































Can you name me? *hint, not an american


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 5/26)*

great camera work as usual, love the teeth shots!!


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## GeorgiaB (Apr 23, 2009)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 6/21)*

Great pictures and even better herps! 
Keep it up I love threads like this!

Thanks,
Georgia


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 6/21)*

That croc has teeth to die for...

He must get them whitened.....

Richie


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## ray1taylor (Nov 15, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 5/26)*

u take amazing pics!!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 6/21)*

i remember reading something on here (simmilar post) to the effect that the zeteki offspring were being culled. is this true and why exactly? i remember vaguely it being something about lack of genetic diversity and regulations of the zoos and aquariums or something. 

james


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 6/21)*

Thanks everyone. Your not kidding, those crocs have a better dental plan than I do.

The offspring were to be culled for several reasons, two of which could have been, they were in excess of what this facility needed to keep on hand, the spawning was between unmanaged parents that were likely related offspring.

If your interested in the guidelines put forth for keeping zeteki that include handling excess spawn you can read them here.


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## Bananaman (Mar 21, 2009)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 6/21)*

Wow those are some fantastic photos thank you for posting them, I especially love the close ups on the Cuban Croc. They are now wallpaper for my computer monitors =).

So cool!


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 6/21)*



james67 said:


> i remember reading something on here (simmilar post) to the effect that the zeteki offspring were being culled. is this true and why exactly? i remember vaguely it being something about lack of genetic diversity and regulations of the zoos and aquariums or something.
> 
> james


the Zeteki still belong to panama. the Zoos can only give the frogs to other zoos. if there isn't room for the frogs then the eggs have to be culled. Panama will not let the frogs go out to the public because then it would be imposable to distinguish between CB and smuggled frogs. its a shame that we can't all have these frogs, but this law helps us all ensure that any hidden population still out there stays intact.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 6/21)*

well see i asked this because of the "documentary" i recently watched with Jeff Corwin spotlighting the issues surrounding chytrid. what concerned me most was the part about Atelopus. he was in panama at what they described as the facility where the Panamanian government funds an attempt to breed zeteki. they stated that they have not found a single male specimen and thus have had NO success with breeding and even went as far as to say that there is little hope because the females that they have are so gravid that they will perish without a mate. i have heard of a few folks on DB that have lone males and yet the red tape wont allow a trade (perhaps one female for one male???) and there are no provisions within the association of zoos and aquariums to continue breeding? by trading for different genetics? wouldn't a fundraiser to provide more space for an animal so close to the brink be in order? and am i to assume that even in the face of possible smuggling the Panamanian government would allow this species to be virtually wiped off of the face of the earth because we wont allow private citizens (of this or any other country) to possess these animals? 

i fully understand the animal laundering concern, but this is assuming that someone would succeed in finding enough individuals to make the expense equal a sale price of considerably less than a legally obtained specimen. i don't think that many would choose illegal over legal specimens. (and if they are as prolific as was described than the smuggling issue is less than convincing)

just some things i have been thinking about, and my very disappointing recent trip to the FL aquarium (which i loved so much as a kid) has done little for my feeling that many zoos and aquariums are better suited to handle these sort of affairs than dedicated private keepers.

this isn't a species that i would even say is on my top 40 so please don't misconstrue this as my venting anger at the fact that I can not own these animals, i simply feel there are times when the rules are effective and serve a just purpose, and times when the rules don't necessarily serve their intended purpose, and more good can be done without these barriers.
james


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo (**updated 6/21)*

ugh, I'd kill for a decent flash setup. Made do with a jacked up iso, aperture wide open, and no flash.

Lemur leaf frogs


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

nice any pics of the whole enclosure? i think that those in previous posts have been exceptional, by any standards, but remarkable for a zoo.

keep em coming 

james


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## carbonetc (Oct 13, 2008)

I wish I could volunteer at the National Zoo. From what I've read they demand an extended commitment from their volunteers that I just can't fulfill.

Do you know what kind of wood that is in the auratus tank? Or how I could go about getting a branch just like it? It's exactly what I have in mind for a tank I'm working on.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

james67 said:


> nice any pics of the whole enclosure? i think that those in previous posts have been exceptional, by any standards, but remarkable for a zoo.
> 
> keep em coming
> 
> james


No enclosure yet, these little guys just arrived. Most likely they'll be placed in the display tank with the zeteki *gasp* 



carbonetc said:


> I wish I could volunteer at the National Zoo. From what I've read they demand an extended commitment from their volunteers that I just can't fulfill.
> 
> Do you know what kind of wood that is in the auratus tank? Or how I could go about getting a branch just like it? It's exactly what I have in mind for a tank I'm working on.


I cant speak to the exact type but If I had to guess its Cypress.
Extended commitment? To my knowledge there's no minimum stay (other than at min of two days a month). If you wanted to just volunteer for one or two weeks then yes I can see how they'd frown on that but its not like your locked into a year contract


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: This weeks updates from the zoo*

Hey Julio,

I think the reason they have to be culled is FOR conservation purposes. If A. zeteki were permitted to go from zoological collections to the hobby, no one could ever be sure that the hobby frogs were "permitted" and not continued to be wild stolen.

If only we could learn to "play better" with our wild friends, we wouldn't have the need for strict conservation rules in the first place. It sucks, but it's our own fault.

BTW, how are the new tincs holding up? Love to see them sometime! Richard.



Julio said:


> man, that sucks, that they have to be culled, sneak a bunch of tads out for conservation, i really wonder what the likely hood in the wild woudl be that offsprings would find each other a mate? i am sure it is a lot higher then we think, so keep them alive.


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## aquascott (Oct 18, 2006)

usually the culled tads are over represented bloodlines also. so for genetic diversity and the well being of the whole species they keep only the genetically valiable ones most institutions are only given display animals which they can breed a handful of to get experience while only a few zoos hold the majority of frogs. for someone who mentioned the fla aquarium, each zoo or aquarium isnt an expert in every animal they keep. they might do great things with sea horses or manatees but to make the public happy and have lots to display they might have animals that are for display


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## carbonetc (Oct 13, 2008)

bellerophon said:


> Extended commitment? To my knowledge there's no minimum stay (other than at min of two days a month). If you wanted to just volunteer for one or two weeks then yes I can see how they'd frown on that but its not like your locked into a year contract


Really? The last time I looked at the volunteering page on the zoo website I could have sworn it said something about a six month or a one year commitment, every single weekend. Looking at it now I don't see the same restrictions. Very good to know.

I would absolutely volunteer in the Amazonia area if there's room for me.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

aquascott said:


> usually the culled tads are over represented bloodlines also. so for genetic diversity and the well being of the whole species they keep only the genetically valiable ones most institutions are only given display animals which they can breed a handful of to get experience while only a few zoos hold the majority of frogs. for someone who mentioned the fla aquarium, each zoo or aquarium isnt an expert in every animal they keep. they might do great things with sea horses or manatees but to make the public happy and have lots to display they might have animals that are for display


not to get off topic but quite true they had a WONDERFUL seahorse exhibit that was very very well executed and i was very pleased with them in that regard. 

the leafy dragons were incredible!
james


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

Are these located at the Baltimore Zoo/Aquarium?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

TDK said:


> Are these located at the Baltimore Zoo/Aquarium?


National zoo, the lemur frogs aren't currently on exhibit, though you can see the tads developing in the reptile discovery center.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

Atelopus zeteki spawn


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

HOLY CRAP!!!!!! 

james


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

too bad you can't raise them


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Julio said:


> too bad you can't raise them


Why not?
J


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## midget (Jul 30, 2009)

go back to the first page it has to do with some agrment and i think they are belived to be sibblings


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

They are culled for genetic management purposes, and also because surplus animals are not allowed to be released to the public, only AZA institutions.


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## atticus22 (Mar 20, 2011)

Great pics


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