# Brewers Yeast? is there an alternative?



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok if you can't tell I am looking into various things FF related. One thing interesting is Brewers Yeast... There seems to be many other similar products and I am wondering if they would be better for production, or even a cocktail of them...

For example:
Brewers Yeast: is 40% protein and high in B vitamins
Nutritional Yeast Flakes: 52% protein
Whey Protein Concentrate: 80% protein
Isolated Soy Protein: 90% protein

Thoughts? Or am I off my rocker here.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I use the nutritional yeast flakes, as well as the soy protein isolate. 2 cups of each for 4# of potato flakes.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Rather than Brewers or with it?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

No brewers yeast.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Did you see improved production over the standard brewers yeast?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Can't say for sure. The nutritional yeast is only a wee bit more expensive when I buy in bulk (http://www.bulkfoods.com) and it tastes and smells a lot better.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ya thats where I started looking... Im wondering if a mixture of these things may help. Brewers, soy, and nutritional...


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I don't see what mixing brewer's and nutritional yeast would accomplish. They are both the same yeast, except brewers yeast is just the leftovers scraped from the bottom of a brewing vat of beer, while nutritional yeast is cultured just for consumption in molasses.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Its the increase in the protien content that increases the fly production and there are any number of products that do this.. The only thing to consider is whether or not there is a required amino acid(s) that may be in different proportions in different products as this can potentially affect yields by acting as a limiting nutrient... 
(and no I do know if there are any.... this is just a comment)
Ed


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

So there is not special reason Brewers Yeast is used in most other than its a bit cheaper?

Im pondering trying catfurs method but a bit simpler basically replace the brewers in the standard mix with nutritional yeast and soy. To bump the protein content a bit.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is a cheap way to increase the protien content... I suspect that is why most people use it. If the cost per culture isn't that big a concern then there isn't any reason to not use a more expensive source. 

Ed


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

True but you have to factor in the whole process... Cups, lids, time.... For example If I could use 5 less cultures a week that reduces my over all cost enough to use better ingredients.

Im not interested in the some of the drastic mediums some people use as they take too much time, and overkill since the FFs can not be gut loaded.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Sorry to hijack, but...

Does the fact that you can't gutload ff mean that all ff are created equal, though? Is there some benefit to having ff on better medium, in that richer medium may make for a healthier adult and one that is better nutritionally, even though its gut doesn't contain additional material?

Or are they all essentially identical as long as they can be formed?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The real answer is that we don't know (and won't know until someone with a lot of money and a lot of flies does a bunch of analysis) but we can extrapolate based on analysis of other insects. (you would need at least about 1 lb of flies for each analysis run with about $1000 a run (as you need to look at carotenoids, fat soluable vitamins as well protien, kcal, ash, minerals etc). 
It is known that in other commercially produced insects that deficiencies from the food source can end up as deficiencies in the insects fed those diets and be passed onto the consumers. 
FF cultures tend to be made to maximize the production of the flies (the standard is a lot of flies means a good media) but this may not be the ideal case as a media could produce a nutritionally deficient but healthy FF... (hence supplementing with dusting as well the various outbreaks of SLS) (for example, by supplying the bare minumum of required amino acid or fatty acid). 
FFs appear to have simple nutritional requirements (hence one of thier ideal reasons for use as a study animal in labs) but translating this over to ideal food for the frogs is not that simple... 

Ed


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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

*hmmm*

lemme throw this in- what would mixing workout protein in do to cultures? like whey protein?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Ed said:


> The real answer is that we don't know (and won't know until someone with a lot of money and a lot of flies does a bunch of analysis) but we can extrapolate based on analysis of other insects. (you would need at least about 1 lb of flies for each analysis run with about $1000 a run (as you need to look at carotenoids, fat soluable vitamins as well protien, kcal, ash, minerals etc).
> 
> Ed


Ed,

I've seen you post these volumes and price quotes before but are these current? I would think using a mass spec, the analyses could be done using a lot less material but perhaps not at a lower cost.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

My understanding was that Brewer's yeast is, indeed, the leftovers from brewing beer, and that most, but not all, the yeast in Brewer's yeast is inactive. Thus, there is some activity in brewer's yeast (just like baker's yeast), giving it some additional benefit over nutritional yeast because it can help break down the complex carbohydrates in the media (potato flakes) into simple sugars and sugar alcohols.

Nutritional yeast, as I understand, is brewer's yeast has been heat treated to make it completely inactive, as active yeast can make people gassy. So, the only difference between the two as I understand them is heat treatment, and perhaps, slightly better grade.

The problem is that the terms seem to get used interchangeably with vendors, and not all brewer's yeast is active.

Personally, I like the results I see with brewer's yeast in the mix. As has been pointed out, soy protein and whey protein are going to have a different spectrum of amino acids.

Protein % content of the various powders is misleading, because unless the protein that is present in a powder/food is a complete protein for the flies/larvae at issue, the protein useless. Further, the limiting factor will be the essential amino acid that is in the lowest concentration, even if a complete protein/amino acid spectrum is available. So, a powder could be "100% protein", but be useless if it does not contain one of the essential amino acids for the fly/larvae. Why is this? There are TONS of different types of proteins, and most do not contain all of the amino acids (building blocks of protein) that exist, and the concentrations of varying amino acids differ substantially among proteins.

Humans have 23 essential amino acids--23 amino acids that our bodies cannot assimilate ourselves, and which must be provided from some food source. Some foods have a higher assimiable protein content than others. Some foods have zero assimiable protein alone, but, when combined with other foods, create a complete protein. For example, rice alone or red beans alone lack some of the 23 essentail amino acids. However, when one eats rice and beans together, you magically get all the essential amino acids. That's why rice and beans are a cheap staple in a lot of poor countries, or in the diets of many vegetarians.

Do we have any fruit fly nutritionists out there that can tell us what the essential amino acids are for FF? Once we get that answered, then we could better know whether whey protein or soy protein might be better used in a fruit fly culture.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Brent,

They were standard as of last year. A large part of the cost is apparently due to the cost of the analysis of fat soluable vitamins and carotenoids (at least according to the nutritionist at work). 

Some of the cost may be due to the fact that there are only a few labs that are certified for food grade analysis and the sample size they request (depending on the analysis) is between 0.5 lbs and 1 lb... 

I think I posted the lab that Zoos use on here somewhere a while back... 

Ed


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

What is the normal use for Brewer's yeast?

I am just trying to figure out where to find some. I think the name for it in Finnish is panimohiiva (which means brewer's yeast, so it should be the same thing) and they use it as an additive to cattle, dog and cat food. Does that sound the same?

I've been using regular dry yeast till now since I haven't been able to locate panimohiiva and I don't actually know what is the difference between those two and what would be the best thing for my mix (agar, malt, semolina granules, fructose, brewer's yeast). Reading this thread did give some light to the matter. 

So, basically any yeast works, but all of the yeast doesn't have to be active?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Do you have bulk health food stores in Finland? You may want to check there. You could also check to see if this site would ship international:
http://www.bulkfoods.com/


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

Thank you for the tip. I need to check if there's any in our capital (which does have a nice variety of stores). Usually the health food stores and others like that here are really expensive compared to regular stores and I'm not sure if there's any that sells bulk. But that link sure made me drool, 65 kinds of nuts... Yummy.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

interesting discussion.

what about gelatin?

I have added it to my wet culture media (flax seed based) in the past. Not sure if it made a difference though...

Kyle,

We need you to run a side by side experiment with 10 cx of each 

ASAP!

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip " am just trying to figure out where to find some. I think the name for it in Finnish is panimohiiva (which means brewer's yeast, so it should be the same thing) and they use it as an additive to cattle, dog and cat food. Does that sound the same"endsnip

Yep, its the same stuff. At one point I was buying in bulk from a supplemnet supplier for horses as a 5 lb pail of it was really cheap I forgot to save the link. I keep the extra in the freezer to extend the shelf life. 

Its use is to increase the protien content of the media as protein content is one of the food sources that limits growth in the cultures. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

"Medicinal and nutritional properties

Although gelatin is 98–99% protein by dry weight, it has less nutritional value than many other protein sources. Gelatin is unusually high in the non-essential amino acids glycine and proline, (i.e., those produced by the human body), while lacking certain essential amino acids (i.e., those not produced by the human body). It contains no tryptophan and is deficient in isoleucine, threonine, and methionine. The approximate amino acid composition of gelatin is: glycine 21 %, proline 12 %, hydroxyproline 12 %, glutamic acid 10 %, alanine 9 %, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6 %, lysine 4 %, serine 4 %, leucine 3 %, valine 2 %, phenylalanine 2 %, threonine 2 %, isoleucine 1 %,hydroxylysine 1 %, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine < 0.5 %. These values vary, especially the minor constituents, depending on the source of the raw material and processing technique.[5]

Gelatin is one of the few foods that cause a net loss of protein if eaten exclusively. In the 1970s, several people died of malnutrition while on popular 'liquid protein' diets. [6]

For decades, gelatin has been touted as a good source of protein. It has also been said to strengthen nails and hair. [1] [2] However, there is little scientific evidence to support such an assertion, one which may be traced back to Knox's revolutionary marketing techniques of the 1890s, when it was advertised that gelatin contains protein and that lack of protein causes dry, deformed nails. In fact, the human body itself produces abundant amounts of the proteins found in gelatin. Furthermore, dry nails are usually due to a lack of moisture, not protein.

Gelatin has been proven to treat ulcers. A recent study from the Institute of Molecular Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Faculty of Biology of the Lomonosov Moscow State University and the Shemiakin and Ovchinnikov Institute of Bioorganic Chemistry, Russian Academy of Sciences has shown that "gelatin peptides reinforce resistance of the stomach mucous tunic to ethanol and stress action, decreasing the ulcer area by twice."[7]

Gelatin has also been claimed to promote general joint health. A study at Ball State University, sponsored by Nabisco (the former parent company of Knox gelatin[3]), found that gelatin supplementation relieved knee joint pain and stiffness in athletes. [8] These results have not yet been replicated by other researchers"


I answered my own question...looks like gelatin isnt the best option. 

So what is?

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I answered my own question...looks like gelatin isnt the best option. 

So what is?"Endsnip

Lets look at it a little from a different point of view.. 

FFs are adapted to utilize yeast and bacteria along with what ever protien is in the fruit (but fruit tend to be poor sources)... if the ffs are adapted to utilizing the protien content of yeast.... then wouldn't the protien content in brewer's yeast pretty close to optimal? 



Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

makes a lot of intuitive sense to me Ed.

Now, there has been in the past grumblings from the peanut gallery, me included, that some brewers yeast seems to yield better production than others...

I recall the acclaims of the GNC Gold/Glass bottle Brewers Yeast for instance..

thoughts?

experiences with different brands?

I have been using the bulk foods stuff lately but have used the GNC product in the past.

Also, as side note, it appears to me that adding sour dough starter to the cultures does increase my production.

Shawn


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> Now, there has been in the past grumblings from the peanut gallery, me included, that some brewers yeast seems to yield better production than others...


A lot of brewers yeast on the market is not 100% Saccharomyces Cerevisiae. Just ask and they should be able to give you the ingredients list.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well given that protiens are susceptiable to degredation though bacterial growth and oxidation, I would suspect that the way the yeast has been collected, handled and stored could affect its quality. 

With respect to the sour dough culture, you are starting your cultures with a thriving growing group of yeast(s) (maybe more than one strain) as well as bacterial that may also be optimized to the conditions in your area (like tempreatures) while the conventially started cultures have the dry active yeast which has to activate the the acclimated yeast (in small quantities) on the feet and body of the flies. Thsese yeasts may have to initally compete and adapt while you are jump starting that process... 

Some thoughts,

Ed


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have been running a new medium that has produced well. Basically some minor changes to the standard, but it seems to be a bit more consistent. With the standard medium I had good results for years, but would have the occasional couple to few that just did not produce or produce well. I have increased the protein %s, and it seems to have improved overall production, and consistency. All at a very minimal cost increase. Im planning a medium care sheet that i will post the recipe in.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

sports_doc,

What kind of experiment were you thinking?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> makes a lot of intuitive sense to me Ed.
> 
> Now, there has been in the past grumblings from the peanut gallery, me included, that some brewers yeast seems to yield better production than others...
> 
> ...


I've used a few different brewers' yeasts, and had better luck with some than with others (can't locate the glass jar stuff here).
One thing I noticed is one brand that was a super fine powder worked better, but it didn't take me long to hypothecize why...the same measuring cup felt heavier (by hand) with the powder, vs the more common kind, so in other words, with the fine stuff, you are just adding more yeast.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "One thing I noticed is one brand that was a super fine powder worked better, but it didn't take me long to hypothecize why...the same measuring cup felt heavier (by hand) with the powder, vs the more common kind, so in other words, with the fine stuff, you are just adding more yeast."endsnip

And by adding more yeast were adding more protien content to the media..... 

Ed


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