# Exo Terra 18” x 18” x 24” Paludarium



## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

This has been running for about 11 months. Frogs have been in for 8 months.

6 Epipedobates Anthonyi. My guess on sex is 3 males and 3 females. They have not begun calling yet. They were very small when I first bought them. Purcahed from my local pet store who ordered them from Josh's frogs.

The water portion is a nano black water. The total capacity is about 7 gallons. It houses neon blue rasbora (Sundadanio axelrodi), pygmy corydoras (_Corydoras pygmaeus)_, shrimp and snails.

The background of the paludarium is an epiweb panel from glass box tropicals. At the bottom of the epiweb panel I attached (using foam) a cork bark tube that I split in half lengthwise. This half tube acts as a planter and additional terrestrial area. A canister filter is housed beneath the tank in a cabinet. The canister filter intake is hidden behind the epiweb panel. I had to install a priming bulb from a fish tank cleaning kit inline with the canister filter intake tube to assist with priming, since the canister filter has to pick water up so high above water level. Once I use the priming bulb to start a siphon it runs smoothly. Water is returned along the top of the epiweb panel via a spray bar.

I made my own canopy and installed Samsung horticultural leds in it. I made a custom lexan top as well. The canopy has a cpu fan that varies its rpm's according to how far off the current temp is from the set temp. The misting system is mistking.

I understand keeping these frogs in an enclosure with water this deep is generally consider irresponsible. After seeing video of a breeding program for the species, where the tanks had water 3 or 4 time the heights of the frogs, I decided to try it. I had another viv ready in case it didn't work out For the first couple of months I watched the frogs all day long. I mean its the pandemic so I had a lot of time to watch frogs. The aquatic plants on the surface of the water support the frogs very well. The frogs don't hang out on the aquatic plants too much but they freely hunt on top of the aquatic plants.

At this point I am convinced that unlike other poison frogs, this species seems to "understand" how to handle the presence of water. They were housed in the paludarium for about 1 month before the floating plant spread, and never once did one go into the water. You can see that I have rings of air line tubing which float on top of the water, this is to keep some spots open for feeding fish. When spring tails or fruit flies fall into these open areas, the frogs never go after them, they do sit and stare at them though, at which time I often dip my finger in the water allowing the insect to board my fingernail, then the frog will peck the insect off my fingernail. A few times after I had removed too much floating plants, a frog broke through the surface of the water, but with their lungs inflated like little life jackets, they float like corks. They just gave a few kicks and were back on the plants or land and continued feeding.

I watch these guys with every feeding (of course that is when they act the most recklessly) If I ever see a frog struggle in the water for more than 2 seconds, I will re-house them.

I am a horrible photographer but I will try to get more/better images of everything.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

The land was coverd with leaves but the moss grew over almost all of them, I need to add more.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hello and welcome. 

That is a very visually appealing tank (it looks very nice), however it is poorly designed for frogs. 
Firstly: that tank, even if it was well designed for dart frogs, is not big enough for 6 Epipedobates anthonyi (also, if you've had them for 8 months and there's no calling you either have all females OR your tank is so poorly setup for the frogs that they aren't calling)

There looks to be almost no usable landspace for the frogs. The water feature takes up a lot of space and what floorspace is left is covered in moss and Vining plants. This provides the frogs with only ground space that is not ideal. I'm going to guess that the frogs spend almost all their time in the plants because they can't tolerate the "ground" level. 

While you might watch them while you're feeding them, that water feature is a big time hazard, frog falls in, frog could find itself with no way way out. 

I'm going to leave the fish issue to people more knowledgeable about fish keeping than I am, but it doesn't appear that it's an ideal situation for the fish either.


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## TeddytheFinger (May 8, 2019)

Sick looking setup!


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## Hobbes1911 (Mar 22, 2013)

The tank looks fantastic from a visual perspective! Brilliantly done, I love paludariums. I can't speak to frogs, but it seems a bit on the small side for them. Why not rehouse them and go with some red devil crabs like geosesarma hagen? They are easy to keep, like the land and water (though are mainly land crabs) but they will burrow a bit. 

As for the fish, how many do you have? A small group of the Sundadanio axelrodi should be alright, but the pygmaeus I think add a bit much in terms of bioload and spacing issues. I'd go with one or the other. Of course, you're seeing them up close so you can decide best, and if both groups are displaying and showing spawning behaviors then it might be acceptable to them. That having been said, I'd really switch out the aquatic substrate with sand, pebbles just isn't brilliant for corys. And maybe plant it more densely, add some driftwood, though the pics don't show the area well enough so I don't know how it looks. 

I would like to end the monologue with some praise though. Aesthetically, your tank is brilliant and vibrant! Go you!


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Hello and welcome.
> 
> That is a very visually appealing tank (it looks very nice), however it is poorly designed for frogs.
> Firstly: that tank, even if it was well designed for dart frogs, is not big enough for 6 Epipedobates anthonyi (also, if you've had them for 8 months and there's no calling you either have all females OR your tank is so poorly setup for the frogs that they aren't calling)
> ...


I have been thinking about moving a pair to another viv. Four of the frogs spend almost all of their time on the land. They each have their own little area where they spend the majority of their time. There is more land than it may appear since the land goes behind the stump, but I agree is is too crowded for the number of frogs.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Hobbes1911 said:


> The tank looks fantastic from a visual perspective! Brilliantly done, I love paludariums. I can't speak to frogs, but it seems a bit on the small side for them. Why not rehouse them and go with some red devil crabs like geosesarma hagen? They are easy to keep, like the land and water (though are mainly land crabs) but they will burrow a bit.
> 
> As for the fish, how many do you have? A small group of the Sundadanio axelrodi should be alright, but the pygmaeus I think add a bit much in terms of bioload and spacing issues. I'd go with one or the other. Of course, you're seeing them up close so you can decide best, and if both groups are displaying and showing spawning behaviors then it might be acceptable to them. That having been said, I'd really switch out the aquatic substrate with sand, pebbles just isn't brilliant for corys. And maybe plant it more densely, add some driftwood, though the pics don't show the area well enough so I don't know how it looks.
> 
> I would like to end the monologue with some praise though. Aesthetically, your tank is brilliant and vibrant! Go you!


Concerning bioload, the planted background and way oversized canister filter seem to do an amazing job at keeping the water clean. I once went a month with no water change and my nitrates, nitrites, ammonia all still tested at 0. After 8 months I have not had a single fish die. My shrimp have also reproduced. The land area is actually an island so there is swimming room beneath it. The substrate is shrimp substrate with areas of small smooth pebble and areas of sand. In the pics you are seeing the pebble area where shrimp substrate has been stirred up. Most of the substrate is sand. 

Thank you!


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## asteroids (Mar 20, 2021)

What is the bromeliad in the top right? It looks very colorful, it reminds me of marcgravia sintenisii but in bromeliad form.


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## Hobbes1911 (Mar 22, 2013)

Sounds like you got it under control then! Like I said, looks awesome. Maybe I'll use you as inspiration and stock my paludarium a bit heavier in the water too. Though I was thinking of just going with some shrimp and a group of Indostomus Paradoxus. 

Still, I'd suggest get rid of the frogs and put some crabs


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## mikemakesapps (Mar 11, 2019)

Nice looking tank! I like the variety of colors and textures. 
What's the name of the really tall plant with the broad leaves?


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## riot (Dec 4, 2020)

Aaron Gustaveson said:


> At this point I am convinced that unlike other poison frogs, this species seems to "understand" how to handle the presence of water.


I'm no pro, but hey you might be onto something here. I actually recall seeing Santa Isabel's as being better suited to water features than other dart frogs. Not sure if they spend more time in low foliage versus ground level (I have read they seem a little more inclined to climb than many other species) but they are commonly found in association to streams, ponds, pools, or ditches in the wild. Granted, these were not glowing recommendations in so much as "if you're determined to do it X is better than Y". 

The enclosure looks awesome though! I'm very interested to see others with experience here chime in.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

asteroids said:


> What is the bromeliad in the top right? It looks very colorful, it reminds me of marcgravia sintenisii but in bromeliad form.


Neoregelia 'Ritzy Red' (punctatissima x Fireball)


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Hobbes1911 said:


> Sounds like you got it under control then! Like I said, looks awesome. Maybe I'll use you as inspiration and stock my paludarium a bit heavier in the water too. Though I was thinking of just going with some shrimp and a group of Indostomus Paradoxus.
> 
> Still, I'd suggest get rid of the frogs and put some crabs



With an oversized canister filter and planted blackground, it does seem that you an over stock quite a bit based on my experience. Of course you still need approtiate swinng area, and species compatibility.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

riot said:


> I'm no pro, but hey you might be onto something here. I actually recall seeing Santa Isabel's as being better suited to water features than other dart frogs. Not sure if they spend more time in low foliage versus ground level (I have read they seem a little more inclined to climb than many other species) but they are commonly found in association to streams, ponds, pools, or ditches in the wild. Granted, these were not glowing recommendations in so much as "if you're determined to do it X is better than Y".
> 
> The enclosure looks awesome though! I'm very interested to see others with experience here chime in.



I am hesitant to agree with you because I am walking a fine line here and dont necessarily want to encourge other to try this. It was my "research" of their naural envirment, life history, and a video of a breeding projects tanks that encouraged me to try this. I would not do this with any other mantella or dendrobate. That being said these frogs do not sink in open water, in fact I'm not sure they could swim downward against their own buoyancy if they wanted to. It is still very much possible that I experience a frog tragedy. I do take the advice I am getting here very seriously and am strongly considering rehousing the frogs to another viv.


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## asteroids (Mar 20, 2021)

Wow! I never knew the ritzy red could look like that. Did it look anything like that when you got it?


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Aaron Gustaveson said:


> Concerning bioload, the planted background and way oversized canister filter seem to do an amazing job at keeping the water clean. I once went a month with no water change and my nitrates, nitrites, ammonia all still tested at 0. After 8 months I have not had a single fish die. My shrimp have also reproduced. The land area is actually an island so there is swimming room beneath it. The substrate is shrimp substrate with areas of small smooth pebble and areas of sand. In the pics you are seeing the pebble area where shrimp substrate has been stirred up. Most of the substrate is sand.
> 
> Thank you!


I want to thank you again for your comments. After looking more at the substrate, I see that my sandy areas are slowly getting more pebbly, as the substrate has been disturbed. I used a chopstick to push the pebbles back down beneath the sand and reclaim some sandy area for the cory's.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

asteroids said:


> Wow! I never knew the ritzy red could look like that. Did it look anything like that when you got it?


For some reason it really looks different than others I've seen, and no it did not look like this when I got it. 

It looked exactly like the image here,
Bromeliad Neoregelia Ritzy Red

My Neoregelia 'Domino' and Neoregelia 'Clarice x lilliputiana' look typical for their species. All of the bromeliads have puped and my tilasia have bloomed.
I do think the plant like my samsung horticultural series leds.


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## asteroids (Mar 20, 2021)

Wow it must really like the light? Could you send a link to the light or is it a custom build?


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

mikemakesapps said:


> Nice looking tank! I like the variety of colors and textures.
> What's the name of the really tall plant with the broad leaves?


Thank you! 
That is a type of peperomia. I believe* Peperomia obtusifolia. *Red-eyed tree frogs love it. It grows well in every tank I planted it in and the leaves can support the weight of larger tree frogs. It has advantageous roots growing into the epiweb but is also planted in the cork bark tube "tray" at the bottom of the epiweb.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

asteroids said:


> Wow it must really like the light? Could you send a link to the light or is it a custom build?


It is a custom build but I will post all the info on how I made it. Maybe that should be a separate thread?


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Hello and welcome.
> 
> That is a very visually appealing tank (it looks very nice), however it is poorly designed for frogs.
> Firstly: that tank, even if it was well designed for dart frogs, is not big enough for 6 Epipedobates anthonyi (also, if you've had them for 8 months and there's no calling you either have all females OR your tank is so poorly setup for the frogs that they aren't calling)
> ...


I really do sincerely appreciate and value your advice! I mowed down the vining plant (it was a "weed" anyway) and covered almost all of the moss with Indian almond leaves. I will be moving a pair of these frogs to another vivarium immediately. I am also going to expand the land area by about 15 square inches. I may very well decide to re-house these frogs. I understand that 8 months is not enough time to say a frog is never going to drown.


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## Hobbes1911 (Mar 22, 2013)

CRABS!!

Anyways, what filter are you running?


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Hobbes1911 said:


> CRABS!!
> 
> Anyways, what filter are you running?



Penn-Plax Cascade 700 Canister Filter. Recommend for up to 65 gallons and 185 gph. I'd say it actually flows at around 140 gph in my set-up. Those rating are always suspiciously high imo and this filter is working against some restriction on the intake side, since it has to lift water all the way up the background, through a sponge filter. That's why I have a priming bulb from a gravel cleaning / siphoning kit installed inline (on the intake line, behind the tank). When I do a water change, I use the bulb to help restart the siphon. So the filter's motor adds to the flow rate of the siphon.

I considered installing a bulkhead fitting into the bottom glass and plumbing a line directly through the top of the stand to the canister filter in the cabinet below. That would been easier on the filter motor and allowed for a skimmer-type action as well. I chickened out when it came time to drill the glass though.


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## Hobbes1911 (Mar 22, 2013)

makes sense. I had a 29g paludarium years ago and did the same set up. I had a fluval 405 set up for it, also for maybe 8 or 9 gallons. This time I just drilled the tank and installed bulkheads. This way I avoid the piping being visible and the pump having to lift the water.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

The frogs have begun calling!


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

I was wrong, I have had the frogs for 6 months not 8 months.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)




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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)




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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

I'm having trouble getting decent pics of the aquatic area, and the strip of land along the back.


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## asteroids (Mar 20, 2021)

That is growing in really well! I asked about the “Ritzy Red” neoregelia on this thread before, but does anyone else get it to get those really nice stripes? Most images of the ritzy reds that I see aren’t as banded or as pink as the one in your tank. Maybe it’s your lights that are working magic?😂


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

I'm happy to mail you a pup from it, but I do think it is probably my lighting that is making it pop. I bought it from https://www.bromeliad.com

I am using 4 of these LED strips, Samsung Horticulture L2 Module they are wired in series and are powered by a Mean Well ELG-240-C1400 Driver .

I own a business that manufactures LED lights for a different application. I was inspired by Spectral Designs. After not getting good customer service from them (no response to my emails with basic questions) I decided to build my own with better diodes. The diodes I selected are superior in spectral output to what I see others in the hobby using. Most use very cheap diodes which is ok because they are not run too hot normally, but the spectral output seems to be based entirely on what the human eye values, rather than balancing the needs of people and plants.

My experience with Spectral Designs is my own. I'm sure they are a fine company. As a fellow LED entrepreneur and herper I support their business model.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Those are quite the LED modules. You're running about 5x the light that many of us (well, our frogs, anyway) would be comfortable with -- which probably helps to explain why you're seeing the frogs keep to a small area (although that is also certainly affected by the very narrow range of microhabitat choice they're offered.) The SD panel for that size viv draws <50w, and as you mentioned is not all that efficient, and I run mine about 50% - 75% output.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Good point. The lights are, of course, on a dimmer. I've never run them at full power. Yes that would be too bright, Im sure it it would cause photobleaching of the plants at the very top of the tank, as well as, being horrible for the frogs. I used four modules in order to make the light more even across the tank, but even one module, on full, would be bright enough, it just wouldn't provide even lighting.

The frogs move all over the tank, especially when I add food, but they each have a spot they seem to prefer and they don't tend to be in the shade. 

I didn't mention the efficiency of SD lights. Im sure the diodes they use are plenty efficient.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

NorCal Frogger said:


> I didn't mention the efficiency of SD lights. Im sure the diodes they use are plenty efficient.


Indeed you did not. My bad. I was extrapolating from this:



NorCal Frogger said:


> Most use very cheap diodes


I'm willing to bet, though, that SD is not making 160 lm/w, as yours is.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Im sure they are not. Im probably more on the end of 140 lm/w because I have them dimmed so much, and the effecny of the driver is redued when you dim below 50%. Honestly, I should have used two of the strips, so I dont have to have the driver dimmed so much. Im sure two would still would have provided an even looking light.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its gorgeous, the fountain of colorful plantlife.

The spatial of water, which mechanics of hazard aside, is waiting to have its gram negative way. Water is the contact vehicle extraordinaire.

With a responsibility of real world privy I share that 8 months is not long enough to provide a litmus of husbandry success.

The incidents of dendrobates, hylids, and other non water visiting frogs (semi aquatic)that eventually fall ill suddenly in aquatically centred environments has been so high in incident that it would seem an exaggeration.

I share this as an earnest yellow light to others, especially newcomers inspired by the beauty of your vivarium and text that reflects your skill and knowledge.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Kmc said:


> Its gorgeous, the fountain of colorful plantlife.
> 
> The spatial of water, which mechanics of hazard aside, is waiting to have its gram negative way. Water is the contact vehicle extraordinaire.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your compliments and experienced based caution! I understand how water features could be a vector for disease. I suspect a lack of dryer niches within some tanks could actually be the reason that frogs are more prone to infection in enclosures with large water features. I think having sufficient dryer areas might mitigate this issue. 

Of course I knew full well when I decide to begin posting, after many years, that experienced keepers here would step up to offer the prevailing wisdom on this issue. It is an important and valuable service to the community. I am in no way new to the topic of water features in dendrobate enclosures, I hope your comments do discourage others from attempting what I have done here, especially with other species of dendrobates.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

NorCal Frogger said:


> I used four modules in order to make the light more even across the tank, but even one module, on full, would be bright enough, it just wouldn't provide even lighting.





NorCal Frogger said:


> Im sure two would still would have provided an even looking light.


You should check out the lighting on the InSitu vivs. The lighting is made by SD, but it is a much less deep panel (that is, shorter front to back) than anything else SD makes, and the results I'm getting from mine are better than the regular (full coverage) panels. I swapped plants over from other vivs in the build, and the Neos, especially, look twice as good as they ever did. Any shading caused by the narrower field of light is actually (or can be used as) a benefit in viv design -- the frogs love the shady spots, and it looks much more "natural" (big scare quotes).

InSitu is using some sort of a diffuser, which likely has some effect on the spread, but I don't think diminishing performance from a smaller panel is a foregone conclusion.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Well . . no frogs have been harmed/drowned. Around 16 months and a lot of that time with no floating aquatic plants. Not sure if anything can be learned from that. I can say that this species is capable of floating and swimming quite well, I A NOT SAYING it is a good idea to keep this species in enclosures with water features. Even though the male calls constantly, I have seen no evidence of breeding, clearly indicating that the habitat is not suitable.

I moved 3 of the frogs to a different vivarium long ago.

I regret planting the peperomia prostrata! Multiple times it has overgrown the background and when I remove it, all the moss comes along with it. 
The truck feature is too close to the background (plus has a brom on the backside) which blocks too much light and prevents moss from colonizing the lower portion of the background. 
The floating plant (which may make the water safer or the frogs, they roam and hunt on it) blocks too much light and makes the fish hard to view. 
I also removed the antherium, I always knew it would not be permanent.

Beginning new builds soon, and I will be moving the colony to a 36x18x18 vivarium, with no water feature.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

NorCal Frogger said:


> Even though the male calls constantly, I have seen no evidence of breeding, clearly indicating that the habitat is not suitable.


Another very recent thread that suggests the same:









Tadpoles and I’m not ready.


Ok, I’m sure there’s a sticky somewhere, I’m on mobile and honestly I can’t seem to find the confirmation I’m looking for. I love paludariums, building them for 10 years. I have had three sips for three years, just chillin and letting me upgrade their display tank as I go. Never heard any...




www.dendroboard.com





Fascinating.


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## NorCal Frogger (Nov 5, 2014)

Very interesting, but not surprising. Let's be honest I was screwing around on this one.


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