# Small Rio Guarumo froglets



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Anybody else working with these or other Rio morphs and getting tiny tiny froglets?

I realize it could just be "bad breeders or parents" but out of 7 different pumilio - these are by far the smallest and thinest morphing out for me.

My eldorados morph out so large that they almost are able to start on melanos right away, by comparision.

Caucheros are popping out on the medium to big side as well....


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Are they just morphing small and then growing to normal size, or are they staying small as juvis? Which imports are the parents? 

My Guarmos tend to be a little on the shy side and do not always get to the ff when they are dusted. Maybe this is the case for you. Since your other pumilio are doing fine with breeding I assume your vitamin supplementation is not the issue. 

BTW, I still need some of your Guarmo froglets so I can hopefully obtain a male. If you want to try a new breeding pair I will send you one of my females.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

I had a pair of bri bri's way back when I first got into the hobby. They froglets would morph out very tiny...smaller than any other neonate I have seen. They were way too small to take ff's. I found this strange considering bri bri are one of the larger forms of pumilio.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

The adults are both WC 2009 SoFl imports. They are a little on the smaller side as adults as well.

I think they could be "not clicking" as breeders or perhaps bad female egg feeding.

I have lost the first one to SLS and just now....three of the next four. Only one left. They are laying more eggs and tads look ok.....

They were just too thin and small and could not adapt, hunt and eat well.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> The adults are both WC 2009 SoFl imports. They are a little on the smaller side as adults as well.
> 
> I think they could be "not clicking" as breeders or perhaps bad female egg feeding.
> 
> ...


I think this may point to the reason you are seeing smaller froglets. When I first started working with a group of vents, the first several clutches would result in SLS and the froglets would be smaller than the subsequent, healthy neonates from later clutches. My advice is to just maintain proper temps, water quality and rotate supplements. Like you said, they are 'new' at producing and may just need to get into the swing of it before healthier eggs are produced. Keep us updated.


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

The ones I did have morph out a while ago were pretty small. Not Escudo or Popa small but smaller than my other pums . I would start them out on springtails for a while . Definatly nowhere near Eldorado froglets .

Like also said it might take them a little while to produce healthier froglets .

With my smaller Pum froglets when I pull them ( I pull as soon as I can catch them ) and they are feeding only on springtails , I sprinkle small amounts of calcium suppliments on the substrate and leaf litter of the temp container every couple weeks ( untill they are takeing melo's ) , so the springtails and froglets "pick" some up while feeding . This has been working VERY good for me . If the froglets start out healty looking , I've had about a 97% survival rate the last couple years .


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Anyone still using the calcium gluconate drops?


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Phil, How small we talking? 5-7mm? 

I had a pair of basti throw that small of froglets, they grew up just fine. I did leave them in the parent tank(reg 55 gallon) which was seeded heavy for about 5-6 months. They grew up and are breeding for others right now. So some do just morph out small.

And those froglets from those caucheros you got from me were only 6-7mm.


never used them drops.


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm haveing much better results now than when I used the C.G. drops .


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

pigface said:


> I'm haveing much better results now than when I used the C.G. drops .


Please go into detail on this....


I always make sure a bit of FF supplement(cal and vits) gets dusted onto the LL so that the springs can eat from it as was stated above.

I havent measured the froglets but they are tiny....I'm talking retic tiny....


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

They are probably not in good health for breeding. They may have been too long in transit or may still have a parasite load. Either way I`d give them a break if they are producing spindly froglets and froglets that don`t thrive.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Yep.....even though the adults appear well shaped, have a great appetite and look healthy, if their next froglet is tiny, I'm going to seperate them.


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

For the first couple years When I was using the calcium gluconate drops It seemed the froglets did well for the first few months . Then when some of them ( I guess around 25-30% ) got bigger they started having problems at around 4-5 months .They would gain alot of "size" almost like bloating but not as drastic they would get lethargic and then start siezing and slowly die . I'm not sure if it was the C.G. or not , but disturbing the froglets in their temp tanks to put a drop of C.G. on their backs regularly was probably very stressfull too .

In the last year & a half out of all the healthy looking pum froglets I've pulled I think I only had two froglets die using the calcium dust on the substrate method. Like I said before, when they are in the temp tanks , every couple weeks I would sprinkle a little dust over the ground and leaf cover then mist it down to dissolve the dust a little . Usually only untill I know they are eating dusted flys pretty good .( There usually alot of springtails in th 190's plus , I know Small spiders , mites , little black bugs I don't know what and some have dwarf white isopods too) I haven't seen one of my froglets sieze once it this time either . They are normally real active , when I open the 190's they usually scamper to the top and I have to shoo them back in .

This being said I have also been varying my suppliments in the last year or so also .Using repcal , herptivite , repashy , dendrocare ( when I could get it ) and superpreen . With naturose and superpig color enhancements . 
I mainly use repcal and herptivite for two feedings and would rotate one of the others on the third feeding also adding a color enhancer only on the third feeding . I feed everything three times a week dusting every feeding . froglets are on the same feeding schedule as the adults . 

Right now I have four f1 pairs of my froglets breeding-laying good eggs , no f2's from them yet . 

I haven't seen a retic froglet , yet , so I can't reference that but the size but my froglets were bigger than Escudo size and smaller than Solarte-Cristobal size . I did had a couple Cristobal froglets that came out very very small , smaller than normal and no sls , and they had about a 50% mortality rate compared to the normal sized froglets from that trio .


This was one of the only 2 froglets from my pair.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Nice pics Mark.

Update:

My current and newest morphed froglet seems to be a tiny bit bigger and is doing well. Fingers crossed.

The other thing, I think I'm going to do is leave the froglets in the parent viv for an additional week or two. After rereading Oz's thread about the mortality rate decreasng if you leave them in the parent viv...I just about believe that very thing now, as unscientific as is appears to be....


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Nice pics Mark.
> 
> Update:
> 
> ...


I think the biggest reason for this is stress.


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

Hey Phil I am working with them now and they have a couple of tads in the tank now with back legs. The one is pretty small but the other one is a lot bigger. So I will let you know how they do...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

try dusting with calcium citrate. I get it to stick to the ffs for up to 2 days. It is also sticking well to springtails. Might be a good alternative to catching the froglets and applying CG drops


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

frogparty said:


> try dusting with calcium citrate. I get it to stick to the ffs for up to 2 days. It is also sticking well to springtails. Might be a good alternative to catching the froglets and applying CG drops


Where are you getting the calcium citrate and the CG drops? Do you recommend to take the froglets out right away? If so, what are you putting them in, where they can not get out of?


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