# Azure frog deaths



## SeanyG (Dec 18, 2009)

In december I purchaced two azures. They were doing great. Eatting exploring. As time went on one started eatting a lot and grew very fast. Almost doubling in size. Both satrted as die size the one grew to just under a quarter size in 2 months. The smaller one passed away about 3 weeks ago. I thought due to the other eating all the flies. So I moved the smaller one to a small tank and put some flies in with it. No matter what it tried it could not get a hold of the flies. It would stick its tounge out and miss every time. Eventually it got too skinny to move and I found it upside down stiff after getting home from work. The larger one ate fine up until a week ago so I again moved it from the main tank into the smaller one and for the past 5 days it did not move at all. I misted it and mixed a vitamin water and placed some drops on him but his breathing and slowed way down. He became very skinny in the last two days and then last night I picked him up to look at him closely and I could not see anything on the outside that seemed out of the ordinary. Just when I went to place him back in the tank he sprung into a "jumping" position eyes shut and hi entire body sunk in and he was stuck like that. After maybe 10 sec his back legs started twiching frantically and then he finally stopped.

Tank temp is 68 F at nite 75 F durring the day. Humidity is 70-80% I feed D. meg flies, and there are tons of little bugs in the tank. The main tank was a 20 gal. Small is a 10 gal. I just purchased a third frog and I am terrified that this fate might take them too. I called every Vet within 45 mins of me and I could not find any that would take a look at my frog. They all gave similar answers that they did not have any experience with exotic animals and the few that did were not avalible. I have cleaned out the small tank redone it and am placing the 3rd frog in it. I am then completly breaking down the larger tank until further notice.

Please any help on the matter. Thanks!


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## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

Are you using supplements, calcium/vitamins.........?

-Mike-


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## SeanyG (Dec 18, 2009)

I use a multi vitamin with D3 every other feeding. Cant remember the name right not. white bottle with a chameleon on the front
Updated*

Zoo Med's Reptivite


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## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

How old are the vitamins/calcium From the date you opened them and the actual experation date? vitamins/calcium go bad after 6 months of opening.

-Mike-


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## SeanyG (Dec 18, 2009)

I opened it Dec 21 2009. I think it said Exp June 2010. But Im at work rt now I have to wait to get back home in the morning to double check.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Did you get fecals done on them when you got them or any time after? Send an email to Dr Frye also describing what's going on, [email protected] - I think he's closed on Weds though


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

They probably both died from a calcium deficiency. I had this happen with a few froglets that got "shy" and let the other ones eat all their food. You really have to keep an eye out for it because it happens fast with froglets and by the time you notice it, most of the time its too late. I would say if you are only using a multivitamin that already contains calcium and d3 mixed with it, the calcium content is not enough to sustain normal calcium blood levels. You need a seperate high quality calcium/d3 supplement. I use herptivite and rep-cal every day. Sorry for your loss.


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## SeanyG (Dec 18, 2009)

I will try herpavite and reptocal. Do I just mix them together or alternate with feedings.


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## SeanyG (Dec 18, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> Did you get fecals done on them when you got them or any time after? Send an email to Dr Frye also describing what's going on, [email protected] - I think he's closed on Weds though


No I did not unfortunatley. When I picked them out I went fo the ones that were clawling and hopping around the most. Plus the breeder I got them from is very reputable. I havnt had a chance to get on the internet in the past week. Dont have it at home.


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## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

You read my mind!

-Mike-



WVFROGGER23 said:


> They probably both died from a calcium deficiency. I had this happen with a few froglets that got "shy" and let the other ones eat all their food. You really have to keep an eye out for it because it happens fast with froglets and by the time you notice it, most of the time its too late. I would say if you are only using a multivitamin that already contains calcium and d3 mixed with it, the calcium content is not enough to sustain normal calcium blood levels. You need a seperate high quality calcium/d3 supplement. I use herptivite and rep-cal every day. Sorry for your loss.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

I never premix. I always just take a pinch of each and put it in the feeding cup right before I feed. I make sure to try to get a 1:1 ratio of rep-cal and herptivite. I just keep an eye on my froglets. The first sign that one is losing weight, they go into quarantine by themselves so that I can monitor their eating.


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## SeanyG (Dec 18, 2009)

purchased the reptocal. the multi expires in june of 2012


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I really think something other than a calcium issue was at play in this case. I could see the smaller frog getting bullied out of food and not getting it's fair share, but that should not have affected the larger one, that was eating well. 
Extra bugs crawling around could have stressed the frogs, as well. 

I've witnessed cases in which smaller frogs just failed to thrive when moved around too much. If the tincs were truly dime size when you got them, I would suspect they were sold to you young, or at least undersized. Heck, when tincs morph out, they should be closer in size to a nickel anyway. Quarter size in two months or less. I would not purchase tincs under quarter size or so, at least when I'm starting out. Froglets that large seem to acclimate to a new environment much faster, and are a little bit more bulletproof.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

It might also be chytrid---you should test for chytrid when you get new frogs and quarantine them for two months first. 
Pisces Molecular can do that for you should you get more frogs in the future.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

SeanyG said:


> purchased the reptocal. the multi expires in june of 2012


Contrary to whatever the bottle says - It will expire 6 months after opening. Once opened - it degrades slowly. I wish the manufacturers would stop putting the misleading EXP dates on the bottles.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

From the original posts.. only a multivitamin was being used. I think a calcium issue could easily be present if the frogs were only supplemented with a multivitamin for a few months. Reguardless of how much the frogs were eating or how fat they were, if the food was not dusted with calcium then thats a big problem. In my case it was bullying. In this case it was due to improper supplementation. 




zBrinks said:


> I really think something other than a calcium issue was at play in this case. I could see the smaller frog getting bullied out of food and not getting it's fair share, but that should not have affected the larger one, that was eating well.
> Extra bugs crawling around could have stressed the frogs, as well.
> 
> I've witnessed cases in which smaller frogs just failed to thrive when moved around too much. If the tincs were truly dime size when you got them, I would suspect they were sold to you young, or at least undersized. Heck, when tincs morph out, they should be closer in size to a nickel anyway. Quarter size in two months or less. I would not purchase tincs under quarter size or so, at least when I'm starting out. Froglets that large seem to acclimate to a new environment much faster, and are a little bit more bulletproof.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

The OP stated he was using Zoo-Med Reptivite, which is a complete Calcium and multivitamin supplement.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

It also contains very little calcium (21.2%) and vitamin d3 10,400 I.U.. Rep-cal analysis- minimum 35% max 40% calcium and 400,000 I.U. I doubt anyone would recommend using reptivite alone. Even with my veiled chameleons it is always advised to supplement with a phosphorus free calcium supplement on top of the multi which already contains a low ammount calcium. Calcium carbonate is a very "bulky" supplement. It takes up a lot of space in proprietary blends. So if it is included in your multi, unless the minimum dose is very high, you aren't getting much.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I agree that I would not use that supplement alone, but I seriously doubt that just using it would result in a calcium deficiency so rapidly. I have known frogs to survive for the better part of a year without proper supplementation, while showing no signs of any deficiency.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WVFROGGER23 said:


> It also contains very little calcium (21.2%) and vitamin d3 10,400 I.U.. Rep-cal analysis- minimum 35% max 40% calcium and 400,000 I.U. I doubt anyone would recommend using reptivite alone. Even with my veiled chameleons it is always advised to supplement with a phosphorus free calcium supplement on top of the multi which already contains a low ammount calcium. Calcium carbonate is a very "bulky" supplement. It takes up a lot of space in proprietary blends. So if it is included in your multi, unless the minimum dose is very high, you aren't getting much.


One of the things many people overlook with respect to calcium is that it has one of the narrowest ranges of safety when taken as a supplement. If it exceeds about 1.8-3% of the diet on a dry matter basis it will cause conditional deficiencies of other trace nutrients (like zinc) and at the higher levels in conjunction with a high fat diet cause deposition of calcium soaps in the digestive tract (Reptile Medicine and Surgery (second edition); Mader). Ideally, calcium intake in monitored in a manner to allow for the calcium to phosphorus ratio to run between 1:1 to 2:1 with around 1.5:1 being a reasonable safe zone but this is unlikely as people don't look to see how much is being ingested. It is known that fruit flies do retain proportionally more of many supplements than do larger feeder insects which places animals fed small dusted feeders at risk of oversupplementation if overfed frequently as the animals are hard wired to consume as much as possible...

In addition, higher levels of D3 are not necessarily better for the animal either.. the level of D3 should be balanced against the level of retinol/retinyl and vitamin E as all three will compete for uptake in the supplement. Excess levels of D3 in the supplement can lead to liver failure as well as in cases of greater levels of intoxication, calcification of soft tissues. 

Since the frog has having problems capturing prey and was observed to flick out and return the tongue and no other symptoms were reported that were consistent with what the hobby calls "MBD" (but in reality is a group of diseases that present with disruption of the calcium metabolism) such as seizures, tremoring, or other deformations of the bones (in particular the hind limbs or the actual mouth), it is more probable that the frog was suffering from vitamin A deficiency which can manifest as short tongue syndrome. A histology of the tongue and other mucous membranes would have been needed to confirm the cause so this is still a guess... 

Ed


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

I would not have put that third frog in the same tank, the vendor probably sold you unhealthy frogs that were too small. Parasites may also be a possibility as well. I'd reccomend fecals and to remove the frog from that tank.


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## SeanyG (Dec 18, 2009)

The third frog is by itself in a 10 gal right now. Tormorrow the main tank is getting taken down. If this third one doesnt make it, I am out of the hobby unfortunatly.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Don't let a rough start discourage you. If you're willing to trek up to Michigan for a meeting some time, I'll give you a couple healthy leucs or auratus later in the year (should have plenty of froglets in 4-5 months, giving them a break right now).


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## SeanyG (Dec 18, 2009)

It will b a while til I amke it up north. Way tooo cold! This one is very active. I have him in the 10 gal, and he comes out on a ledge to eat. Im very tedious with him. Only eats about 2 flies when he on the ledge but I usually drop in 5-6 at a time and usually cannot find any by night time. My problem now is trying to get him to eat the flies b4 they rub off the calcium.


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