# State of the Hobby



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

I've been thinking on this for quite a while and have been hesitant to post it until now. There will likely be people who disagree or are upset by this, but frankly, I don't care...it needs to be said. 

I stumbled upon this hobby going on 4 years ago while trying to research a proper terrarium setup, so I could grow orchids in a dorm room. The day I found this place I was hooked. I'd read about dart frogs all my life but never imagined I could actually keep and breed them in my home. I read and read and read and finally built a tank and bought my first frogs, a trio of Orange R. lamasi, which I still keep. Over time, I've kept a large majority of the species around, found what I like and what I do well with and have focused on those. I continue to read from various sources and speak to fellow hobbyists in an attempt to better my husbandry and knowledge of not only the animals but also their surroundings. I also live in an area that isn't frogger rich, but every member of our local community is a high quality frogger, and I thoroughly enjoy when we get together. I think the latter two aspects are really what this hobby is all about: bettering our overall knowledge of a land that fascinates us and the camaraderie and potential friendships that develop as a result of a hobby. Isn't that the point of a hobby? To make like-minded friends and have a little fun?

Unfortunately, when I log in here or elsewhere these days, I don't often see much of either of those aspects, and I've seen the attitudes change in a direction away from them. When I was getting started, I could log into here and read about great attempts to advance husbandry: Robb's surrogacy experiments, new ways to grow out tadpoles, clay backgrounds and substrates, and so on; or threads hundreds of pages long with exceptional plants like the foliage and bloom threads, or crazy set ups like Shawn and Ray's frog rooms or excitement for the next UE shipment, Microcosm/Frogday show, or huge regional meet. Sure, there was always some controversy, but it was always kept to the side and not the main topic of the forum. 

These days, it seems like the majority of the forum and FB active hobby feed off of drama and controversy...like this whole thing is one big competition, and if you aren't better than your neighbor, you're a lesser frog keeper; if you aren't keeping 8 locales of pumilio and a few large Oophaga, you're just average. What ever happened to cutting your teeth on something more affordable before you jump all in and spend $300 on a pair of pumilio? Is it really out of love of the species, or are you doing it because they're a symbol of status? Keep what you enjoy...even if it is a "lowly" auratus or an "ugly" altamazonica. 

Ed tries desperately to try to defeat the dogma "recipe for success" culture that festers up at times. The trouble is not only with the ease that these recipes bring to husbandry but also with the fact that novel thinking is often shunned. Could you imagine if someone came on here tomorrow and told you to begin feeding egg yolks to your "rare, coveted" tadpoles? He/she would be shunned simply because no one thought of doing that yet. People are afraid to discuss natural history information because a discussion and disagreements might ensue. We're all (or most) adults here. Often, discussions and civil disagreements lead to breakthroughs. If no one wants to discuss them because they're afraid of stepping on someone's toes, then the potential to learn something new has diminished. 

There are recent threads that constantly bring me back to the old "Chicken Little, the sky is falling" story. Sure, I don't want to keep hybrids like most around here, but the simple fact is that some people will always want to be different, and they will mix similar species and hybrids will result. It has happened for years. There are folks around today who have produced hybrids in the past and some may or may not still be. There will always be purists who never want to mix, though, no matter what happens in the future. The key will be to know who you get your animals from and trust those people. I can say with confidence that I can find nearly any readily available species that I wanted to work with from a trusted friend or close contact after only four years in the hobby. I feel like most should be able to say the same so if some group wants to play Dr. Frankenstein in their basement, so be it. I just won't get my frogs from them...there's always someone else working with them. 

People often wonder why the "old timers" spend little time posting here. Often, they do post, and then someone with not 1/4 their experience follows that up with something ugly or disrespectful or just downright incorrect. This whole thing is just a hobby. One of my favorite threads here was Shawn's "Who Cares??" thread because in all honestly it's humorous that people get so worked up over...wait for it...colorful frogs in glass boxes. 

That's it...this whole thing is here for us to enjoy ourselves and maybe meet a few friends along the way. With that in mind before you press that new post button, think...does this really need to be said or am I just perpetuating a poor attitude? Can I forward husbandry to passing on this comment, or am I just putting a fellow enthusiast down? Before pressing that button, take a look at your frogs, go outside and enjoy your native frogs, text or call your favorite frog buddy and see how they're doing, pack up some plant clippings and send them to a friend who's building a new tank because all of those things are more important than posting another negative, derisive comment here.


----------



## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

pretty sure the egg yolk thing has been done years ago. by one of the old timers.


----------



## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Correct me if I'm wrong Robb is a oldtimer and is the first to feed egg yoke to frogs. That's where I believe I heard of it years ago. I heard second hand someone having good success feeding yolk with a mixture of vitamins powder.


----------



## Luke-O-Melas (Dec 20, 2014)

I am newly returned to the hobby after a lengthy absence and a new member here on the boards.

Generally speaking, I enjoy reading posts, seeing the great work by others through their photos or articles and when I can, letting others know of my successes and failures.

In all, I find people here helpful. 

As with all societies, groups, clubs, there will always be politics and controversy. Trust me, I have belonged to more than a few societies and even headed one or two.

That being said, sometimes it is best to pass on commenting on something if it gets one hot-under-the-collar.

Locally, there are few froggers or few that I know of. You folks here are my community and I look forward to more years of conversation.

Off to my local Orchid Society meeting! Chat soon.


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Tricolor said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong Robb is a oldtimer and is the first to feed egg yoke to frogs. That's where I believe I heard of it years ago. I heard second hand someone having good success feeding yolk with a mixture of vitamins powder.


Yes, you're correct. I mentioned his egg yolk experiments simply to draw comparisons between now and the past.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Luke-O-Melas said:


> Locally, there are few froggers or few that I know of.


Luke, there are plenty of froggers in Toronto. Shoot me a PM when you get back from your meet.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tricolor said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong Robb is a oldtimer and is the first to feed egg yoke to frogs. That's where I believe I heard of it years ago. I heard second hand someone having good success feeding yolk with a mixture of vitamins powder.


Actually the first attempts using chicken yolk precede 1984. See Zimmerman, Terrarium Animals Breeding Care and Maintenance, TFH publications. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ian Hiler (Apr 9, 2009)

Long before Robb tried an egg yolk diet,NAIB and myself and maybe some other tried it after hearing about some Hobbiest in Europe having some success. We did not, I remember NAIB had a two year old histo tadpole that look about five weeks old. I then tried using other frog eggs, with no luck. Then had some success with other dart fry eggs. Jenny Pramuk PhD. Published a paper using some of my data, probably back in the mid-nineties...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hey Ian,

It looks like the issue could be due to chicken yolks having the wrong lipid profiles and that the tadpoles are assimilating at least some of the lipids directly. 
There are a couple of references linked here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...ilio-tadpole-progression-pics.html#post785234 

Ed 




Ian Hiler said:


> Long before Robb tried an egg yolk diet,NAIB and myself and maybe some other tried it after hearing about some Hobbiest in Europe having some success. We did not, I remember NAIB had a two year old histo tadpole that look about five weeks old. I then tried using other frog eggs, with no luck. Then had some success with other dart fry eggs. Jenny Pramuk PhD. Published a paper using some of my data, probably back in the mid-nineties...


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Ed said:


> Hey Ian,
> 
> It looks like the issue could be due to chicken yolks having the wrong lipid profiles and that the tadpoles are assimilating at least some of the lipids directly.
> There are a couple of references linked here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...ilio-tadpole-progression-pics.html#post785234
> ...


Man, if only there were some biochemists on the forum that could analyze the contents of feeder eggs. I'm sure they could be replicated artificially if they're not made up of unique biological compounds


----------



## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

hmm TFH, Maybe that's where I saw the yolk thing. I was a long term subscriber and probably have that issue in my attic somewhere. Sorry did not mean to hijack this post about egg yolk. 
I think the oldtimers mostly came from zoos and gardens and were studying dart frogs. Then instead of bull frogs in the local pet shops they were filled with dart frogs cheap. Thus the hobby begins.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Spaff--with all due respect...I guess I joined DB about the same time as you...and I knew NOTHING about no damn frogs...all I knew was someone at Lowes that I worked with in the plant dept. caught a frog and knew I had a paladarium...so insisted I take the damn thing.....turned out to be a Cuban WC--- It is incalcuable how much I have learned, the patience that people have so generously shown for a true noob who really didn't retain what an amphibian was from the biology class umpteen years ago...and for the dedicated people who try so hard to be patient with the new posters who do not access the stickies...hell, I didn't know what they were, or how to access any damn thing... In short, yes the drama for the stealing of frogs, the bad deals, the overpriced frogs...you name it--has affected some of the "old-timers" and I can truly understand the frustrations of posting over and over: READ THE DAMN FORUMS... but it has led me here--to make a post explaining that meeting the DB MADS people at Roman's and George's to exchange the good will that is still exists...and the dedicated scientists like Ed who challenge questionable practices..."show me the facts"..there are so many members who get tired, then something happens, and they dive back in. So many plants, so many frogs, so much to learn...it is just such a resource...cutting glass (thanks Pumilo...)....special effects (Dendro Dave and company)...Plants--Antone...the list is very long.... This obsession to breed and sell the most expensive frog is like any other product...and will burn our.....the cream always rises to the top...


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Huh, pretty sure this thread wasnt intended to be a discussion of feeder egg substitution methods and the history


----------



## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm pretty sure it wasn't indltended for snide comments that offer nothing to the discussion either.


Back on track, I do find that I enjoy reading older threads a lot more than the newer stuff lately. It seems like there used to be so much more exchange of ideas and camaraderie. I also definitely agree that this is turning more into a "how many rare species/morphs can I claim in my signature" sect of the hobby.


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

For me the disappointment is that the frogs that were popular when I first got into the hobby several years ago very few hobbyists care about any more. It's always about getting the next NEW frog into your collection.

I have to admit it happens to me as well, but I do still have my first two thumb species, standards and the Tor Linbo line of taras, in my collection.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Changes come and go. Newbies post the most. The most experienced say the least, (unless asked). No-one uses the search feature before posting inane oft repeated questions. Been in this hobby LONG before forums became the fodder ground for insecure people flinging back handed insults and sarcastic comments. But for the most part, I would say there hasnt been alot of change, mostly status quo. I think what it REALLY is, is the longer someone is present on these boards, the more boring they become, not because content has dramatically changed, but because they've read all the good threads, searched for all the ones that interest them, and finally they are left waiting and waiting for new interesting stuff to come up. So, its mostly perception.


----------



## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

There is probably more fluff then there used to be but the beginners are still getting knowledge from the board. I re entered the hobby about 8 years ago and learned a great deal more then I did 25yrs ago in the hobby. 
Everybody is probably guilty of wanting that rare frog in there collection. That said I love my auratus and azureus.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Pdfcrazy: did you mean to post: " the more boring they become", or did you mean to say : "bored"... Bored, yes...that's when--if you can stand one more post you say: READ THE FORUMS....and direct the OP to the appropriate place. But, like probably most can pretty much assess where a poster is going when they immediately want to know about how to set up a breeding program...or where to buy a proven pair regardless of the cost... So a purist, or someone who is already selling does not respond...com'on--you know who you are... are we trying to educate, expose, and draw in hobbyists/educators/researchers..etc. --if that is what DB is about--well, maybe a different approach is called for. At the Repticon Shows, there is a great opportunity to let preschoolers in on all this...there should be seminars at those gathering places...everywhere that there is an opportunity to let people know about THIS forum and DD--we have to let people in on this obsession


----------



## Luke-O-Melas (Dec 20, 2014)

JudyS! Which Lowe's? I was the Lawn and Landscape Pro at 2493. That was up until March 28th of this year.

Always fun to have herpetofauna coming in on plant shipments.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Westminster,MD--oh how funny...and I was up in Pennsylvania on a mobile phone in a garden nursery trying to tell my boss and an assistant that I knew nothing about frogs!! You never do know what doors are presented in life to explore....and am so gratified at this point...love the screen name....


----------



## Luke-O-Melas (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks JudyS!

We were one of the first 6 stores to open in Canada. As I stated in an earlier post, I only wish I had all the selection of frogs, plants and materials that you have down south of the border.

Who knows, maybe we can get a Froggers Club going up here.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

hey....check out the MADS thread...there are a couple of you Northern Neighbors who are coming down in March to Scott Menigoz's for a MADS get-together....


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

understandable...there will always be jerks or ego driven people in any endeavor...I used to be into racehorses so know how that goes...but the DB ers who really want to learn will eventually see through people like him...trust me...and the people who raise and want to share will prevail/


----------



## Luke-O-Melas (Dec 20, 2014)

Like in any community, you will get the good and the bad. Or in this case, the smart and the not-so-smart.

That is why we need to help educate and be somewhat tolerant of those ever reoccurring questions.

The truth is, governments and scientists are not the major contributors to conservation. The best possible future, any future, for these frogs lies in the hands of hobbyists like all of you.

I'm in Canada and it seems like a SAR (Species-At-Risk) Recovery Program entails spending thousands of dollars on a scientist to go out and count that we only have 212 of a species and it needs to be recovered....but wait, we are going to let nature run its course! There are no plans to collect seeds or eggs and grow ex-situ, reintroduce or protect habit. The people protecting endangered or threatened species here, are retired software programmers and guerilla gardeners who are genuinely passionate about nature and her treasures. And I say this as a biologist recognizing the shortcomings of the scientific community in taking action to help SARs.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

yikes......


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Luke-O-Melas said:


> The truth is, governments and scientists are not the major contributors to conservation. The best possible future, any future, for these frogs lies in the hands of hobbyists like all of you.


Only if the hobbyists are directly supporting or funding a research program in the field or a in-situ breeding project or a properly setup and managed an ex-situ project (which automatically excludes hobbyist owned animals). 

Captive breeding in the absence of a program to protect the appropriate ecosystem is not conservation and will never be conservation. None of the animals in the hobbyists hands are suitable for reintroduction or repatriation due to multiple factors ranging from adaptation to captivity to the potential exposure to novel pathogens and parasites to a number of other factors. 

See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...ive-bred-conservation-efforts.html#post576511 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> Huh, pretty sure this thread wasnt intended to be a discussion of feeder egg substitution methods and the history


How can you establish if there has been progress if you exclude the history of the hobby? If there isn't a bar of what has been done then you can never know if there has been improvement. *Attempting to exclude any history from this discussion should be considered a problem*. 

On a second note, incorrect assumptions or facts should always be corrected whenever possible as otherwise you are directly contributing to the perpetuation of bad information. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dart guy 16 (Jan 16, 2012)

off the egg yolk topic, and talking about the first part of this.. I have only been in the hobby for 3 years I still consider myself new here. I have taken a great deal of advice from people and passed on whatever knowledge I had to help people who were a little newer than me. 

What I see lately and somewhat with a handful of locals around me is that people are buying "higher and higher end" frogs not because they like them but in the hopes to turn a profit.. more and more people are looking for pairs to make a "quick buck". part of the excitement for me was purchasing a trio of froglets/juvis and playing the waiting game. I found it to be more exciting that the frogs I raised from a young age grew up and laid eggs, and part of the excitement was learning how to keep those eggs viable.. 

there is an overwhelming sense of greed and "know it all syndrome" in the hobby and its sad to me. somebody can purchase a nice pair of frogs breed them and have a convo with somebody who knows something and all of a sudden they are breeders and experts. 

If you have the money buy what you want but there is no harm in being considerate to people and checking your ego every now and then. I have also noticed and overwhelming sense of "saltiness" from "veterans" in this group or facebook groups or even in person with people who don't like to deal with "newbie" questions, or will actually argue a difference in opinion. I know a gooooooood amount of people who will not post questions on this page because of the nasty remarks people are so quick to give and I dont think its fair.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dart guy 16 said:


> .
> I have also noticed and overwhelming sense of "saltiness" from "veterans" in this group or facebook groups or even in person with people who don't like to deal with "newbie" questions, or will actually argue a difference in opinion. I know a gooooooood amount of people who will not post questions on this page because of the nasty remarks people are so quick to give and I dont think its fair.


Are they afraid of the comments or afraid of having to defend an assumption or position? 
If a person is posting something as fact then they should be willing to explain or defend that fact and people shouldn't take that as an attack. If there people just accept "facts" as they are put on the board then nothing will advance as people will be given incorrect information. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dart guy 16 (Jan 16, 2012)

Ed said:


> Are they afraid of the comments or afraid of having to defend an assumption or position?
> If a person is posting something as fact then they should be willing to explain or defend that fact and people shouldn't take that as an attack. If there people just accept "facts" as they are put on the board then nothing will advance as people will be given incorrect information.
> 
> Some comments
> ...


I cant think of an exact situation but i know at meets that I go to its something we have discussed. and i know it has also been addressed here on this page as well. I think people will always have their own advice when it comes to things but sometimes people just come out nasty when answering questions. 

I remember one of the first post i put up here I got a nasty response to a question I asked and I didnt (still dont) think it was very nice. rather than answer my question I got clowned for being new..


----------



## Ian Hiler (Apr 9, 2009)

OK, I feel that I need to step up and again post as (if Robb is an old timer, this makes me a fossil, being he was my student back in 1996) Zach and Ed, my post was just for history and was not intended to direct the thread. I am aware of all the history and then some. Ed, if your interest we should talk. Anyway, this thread seems to be exactly what Zach (Spaff) was trying to bring to all our attention and unfortunately is now in print!


----------



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

^This.

I said several years ago - while many got excited that the appeal and practice of keeping Dendrobatids was growing - that it would change the hobby. Most said it would just make things better...I wasn't so sure. If anything, it's different. If anything, it's become like any other hobby full of prescriptive step-by-step dogmas and personalities and people showing off collections to measure themselves against others.

And there are those - old timers or gods or whatever you want to call them - for whom this hobby wasn't about notoriety or seeing how many 'Cool frogs, bro!' they could get in a thread. What resulted in their pursuit of successfully keeping these animals were actual friendships and the unexpected evolution of a sort of community. And as the hobby has grown, this has become diluted...and what has replaced it is not what they know or even desire. And so they continue practicing their hobby in the ways they want to, and in relation with the people they want to engage with. For those who have entered this hobby in the last few years, they don't necessarily understand all the trail-and-error some of these folks went through just to keep these things alive...just to breed them...just to breed enough of them to get some of the offspring to someone else to keep them going. There is now an INDUSTRY forming around these little frogs: ExoTerra enclosures designed for little amphibians, various products for more naturalistic type tanks, etc. This is a relatively new phenomenon in the Dendrobatid hobby, but it shows that it has become popular enough that herp hobbies see a possibility for profit. This, again, impacts and influences the hobby...and what may have started as a hobby for people who were willing to put in time and money and energy and problem-solvingn fortitude, is now something the average Joe can just walk right into and start up. Jeez...you can get into this hobby now by going to Petco. That was unimaginable when I get started. 

For me, this is one of the importance of shows. And while people type thread after thread about how to make them more 'successful'...well, the success of a show isn't just in how much money someone makes or how many frogs they sell. A large part of it, for me, is the strengthening of a bond between people I largely only interact with online. It's about staying up late into the night and having drinks with people, swapping stories and plant cuttings or maybe gifting a few frogs to someone at the end of the event who hasn't tried that type before – there is a sort of generosity and generatively that exists in certain parts of this hobby that is expressed and experienced at some of these shows, and for those who don't want to make the effort or sacrifice to be part of them (but would rather complain that it's not being held in their backyard), they are missing out on one of the more unique and valuable aspects of this hobby, in my opinion. 

Forums don't cultivate this type of community. Actually, forums create their own little micro-communities, and I think if you spend too much time on them, you can end up with a skewed understanding of how the hobby - as a whole and on a daily basis - exists outside of the limited universe of the forum.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I liked and thanked Spaff' for his post. (Skylsdale's too)...

But... (Muahhahahha...)

Honestly still see all that good stuff still here (in one form or another). Most of us whether we participate in the drama or not get tired of it from time to time...

*But I think much of what happens here that we may not like, is a necessary evil. The arguments, the back and forth are exactly what has created and allows this culture and hobby that we love to exist, but also adapt and endure.*

There are those that just want to have fun, and a free exchange of ideas, but because this is fun and matters to us, people are going to argue. A forum IMO should be a place of tolerance and respect, but a forum of peace and love will never exist... and arguably shouldn't exist if it intends to get anything done or protect what the community has.

None of us exist in a vacuum, realize what you do or don't do will effect others. Even if this is all just for fun for you... it does mean more then that to others, and they deserve a degree of respect, and sometimes that means not doing something that may put what they have at risk, not just saying "I understand where you are coming from".

Change is inevitable, but when and how that change occurs is within our means to at least guide if not control, and a degree of responsibility and accountability rests on all of us, regardless if we want it nor not... or why we are here.

(Again, and again, and again... because often I don't think we all truly realize the implications as much as should)...

*"We do not exist in a vacuum". *

Understanding that, letting it inform your words/actions... can do wonders for everyone.

And while I'm not sure I agree with everything in his post, or feel there may be conflicts, or maybe that not all of it is possible, or the correct action...

*It absolutely needed to be said* (Skylsdale's too) 

So that is why I "like" and thank them for it, (Plus they seems like cool guys, and they care... Plus Zardoz will inevitably cross paths with the mods from time to time)


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Ian, you look pretty good for being a fossil  and you can still swing with the best (and youngest) of them. I actually appreciated the history post you added. It was something I never knew, and that post provided information that I'd bet the majority of readers didn't know prior. If it would have directed this thread further into a history lesson of the hobby, that would have been fine. Most of us (the non-fossils) would have learned something new. 

Dave, I'm not saying we as a hobby all need to sit in a circle around a campfire and sing to one another. Discussions are good and disagreements aren't necessarily bad. What is bad are the disrespectful, back-biting, unnecessary comments that are often the result of sitting behind a keyboard. I'll admit that I've been in the middle of many discussions both heated and otherwise, and I haven't come out of one feeling negatively towards the other person (and I hope they feel the same way).


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Dear Brothers,

I see people post all the time about dislike for answering questions over and over. IMHO this just highlights the need for a lot of work on the sickies and articles. I am pretty new but I often find that digging through very long threads to find information just doesn't work very well, and it gets worse the newer you are. 

If someone asks a question you feel should be answered already, go dig up the answer, if you cannot link directly to a concise answer (IMO in a single post) then we should probably create an article where someone who is sick of repeating it, compiles the information from many posts, says it once and then its done. From there on out a link answers the question, if something changes or is not clear people fix it up. And the positive outcome would be that some people could work together and it would be a great team building exercise. It is a little ironic that this post seems to claim that 4 years ago things were developing, and I noticed that 4-5 years ago was about the last time any major work was done on the stickies. Its like the admins just froze time, and words became law written in stone. 

Also let's not forget that text is often interpreted in the worst way possible.
Don't Type at Me Like That! Email and Emotions | Psychology Today
I wish I had a better link but this is the gist of it, if I write something more people are more likely to interpret it as me being a dick than what my actual emotions are. So it helps if both parties, the writer and the reader consider that and try to write and read more pleasantly. 

Sincerely PubFiction 

wow see how the first and last two words took the edge off. I guess people had to think a lot more when they wrote back in the days of snail mail and they developed a system to avoid misunderstandings that would be catastrophic when a soldiers wife left him after a poorly written letter and he had no idea for 4 months.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Spaff said:


> Dave, I'm not saying we as a hobby all need to sit in a circle around a campfire and sing to one another. Discussions are good and disagreements aren't necessarily bad. What is bad are the disrespectful, back-biting, unnecessary comments that are often the result of sitting behind a keyboard. I'll admit that I've been in the middle of many discussions both heated and otherwise, and I haven't come out of one feeling negatively towards the other person (and I hope they feel the same way).


Can't disagree with any of that, although I actually would be for more camping trips! 

I think part of the problem is people will have an argument and decide that other person is so wrong that they actually aren't worth respecting anymore, and while maybe sometimes that is justified... all to often we just "go there", when it isn't.

Here is an example of what I think is the more reasonable view (Like all of mine! ...LoL ): 

Recently got into a fairly heated debate, some of what was said on botb sides could be considered as "shots taken", justified or not, and regardless who is right overall...I don't hate that guy, I just disagree on those issues.

If he starts pumping out hundreds of hybrids, lying and generally being deceptive, practicing sleaze marketing and pushing a BS pseudoscience backed agenda to make $$$(Like a certain someone)... Then maybe I'll cross into the realm of "really really stronge dislike".

...but as of now, it is just a difference of opinion. No biggie and best wishes. 

How often is taking it further then that, really worth burning that bridge?


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

at the risk of being criticized for the following comment....recommending that noobs check the forums when asking a question in a thread, or as an original post...it is pointing out that there is a wealth of information and you are pushing them toward using that resource....and don't hate me for suggesting that, to me, some of it is a reflection of the current--"I want it now, don't make me work for it--give me the quick and easy" Is it an age thing? I don't know...but the poster above who's feeling were somewhat offended had a great followup to his original question posted by Pumilo. The comment that was a little snarky was from a somewhat noob himself...and he's probably been waiting to use that particular comment for some time. HEY!!--I'm only sayin'


----------



## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

I see that trend too Zach. Your post reminds me of when we met up with you so my step son could raise up some Azurieventris. Those are the good moments of the hobby that probably happen often, but just isn't mentioned on the boards as much anymore.


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Personally, I don't like the idea of giving someone the exact answer in one small, concise post. It is true that that is what's expected in today's age of instant gratification, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing. To me, there's a benefit to doing research for yourself. Doesn't just simply answering these kinds of posts or providing a link to a post with the answer just perpetuate the dogmatic "follow the recipe" style of the hobby? 

I was new once, and I probably asked some of these same "stupid" questions, but I also became proficient with the search button on here. I think answering questions like these in a manner such as "perform a search on calcium deficiency" is a much better response than outright answering or by just sayin "use the search function". You've pointed them in the right direction, but they still have to put an effort into learning and forming their own thoughts. 

Here's an example...Someone new buys froglets and grows them up, but because they're new they post asking help sexing their animals. If there is always someone there to say "That one's male" rather than teaching them how, then how will that person ever learn how to sex frogs? Kind of that "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, he can feed himself for life." thing. With so many buying proven pairs right off the bat, having an "experienced" hobbyist not able to sex frogs isn't such a far-fetched idea. 

And no Judy, it's not necessarily an age thing...I'm 22


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

We take it for granted that everyone is familiar with forum etiquette, and a wiz with the search button, and even in this day and age it often just isn't the case... 

And some of us aren't even native to this planet, and don't know what all the strange symbols on your primitive text generating devices represent.

 <--( Like where I'm from that symbol means "Give me ice cream" or "polish my ray gun". ...but it doesn't seem to work here for either, so I still have no clue what it actually means!

IMO we pass up to many chances to win hearts and minds in favor of giving black eyes, or just being silent,(Myself included... especially that last one in my case.)  ....Anyone? ...I'll take either!


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm one of the guilty ones not knowing what the heck all that "stuff" is...and still don't use/need the icons (gees, I didn't even know what THAT word was at the beginning of using DB...)


----------



## Dart guy 16 (Jan 16, 2012)

Judy S said:


> at the risk of being criticized for the following comment....recommending that noobs check the forums when asking a question in a thread, or as an original post...it is pointing out that there is a wealth of information and you are pushing them toward using that resource....and don't hate me for suggesting that, to me, some of it is a reflection of the current--"I want it now, don't make me work for it--give me the quick and easy" Is it an age thing? I don't know...but the poster above who's feeling were somewhat offended had a great followup to his original question posted by Pumilo. The comment that was a little snarky was from a somewhat noob himself...and he's probably been waiting to use that particular comment for some time. HEY!!--I'm only sayin'


I see somebody did some research


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Spaff said:


> Personally, I don't like the idea of giving someone the exact answer in one small, concise post. It is true that that is what's expected in today's age of instant gratification, but I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing. To me, there's a benefit to doing research for yourself. Doesn't just simply answering these kinds of posts or providing a link to a post with the answer just perpetuate the dogmatic "follow the recipe" style of the hobby?
> 
> I was new once, and I probably asked some of these same "stupid" questions, but I also became proficient with the search button on here. I think answering questions like these in a manner such as "perform a search on calcium deficiency" is a much better response than outright answering or by just sayin "use the search function". You've pointed them in the right direction, but they still have to put an effort into learning and forming their own thoughts.
> 
> ...


I think the sexing issue is a little more complicated, I actually can link them directly to this article  . However no matter how much the read some of it just has to be experience. And more experienced peoples opinion is valued in this case which is why people often post the question even if they know "how to do it". What is sad about this? I am linking to joshsfrogs, not this forum. Hence my point stickies here aren't doing their job. 

First there is nothing wrong with suggesting to people who are reading an open ended question there is a current best practice to do something. People who are developing new ideas or trying new methods are not going to get to that point faster if they have to read through hundreds of pages of posts to get information that could be summed up in a single paragraph. IMO I see it exactly the opposite as you. I see it as when people come in new to the hobby we hit them with a short concise recipe for survival. Then hopefully they have a good experience and can start to branch out and experiment from there. Throwing them in the deep end and saying well I hope you know enough about the internet and terminology to find the information you need has a chance of back firing or sending them to another forum or facebook.

My own acquaintance went something like that. My first set of frogs I carefully purchased, carefully quarantined, had them tested fecaled, rana, chytrid etc..., I bought them all as juveniles I literally owned tanks and things for close to a year before I got them, I grew them up together they all lived. Now I feel more confident to buy more expensive frogs and possible be more risky with cheaper frogs. But I found a lot of information I searched for was very difficult to find. Some times I read through entire huge threads and found nothing, really sucked. 

But yet other people are going to come home from a show or pet shop having made a impulse buy possibly on bad information. We need to also be there for them to get them on the fast track to survival and health. 

Advanced experimentation and new methods will come faster when people absorb the basic information faster and get to the point they can start thinking past survival and towards thriving.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

a couple of valid points.......and to me, we need to spread the word about forums such as DB. At every reptile show, etc., vendors should let people know about DB, Dart Den, etc....it never fails to surprise me that the people who are looking at frogs to buy do not know where to go to get advice. Hey...wake up, we are in the information age...with every purchase, an information sheet...business card, and encouragement....the more the patrons are exposed, the more frogs will live well and long...and be future buyers...I have been very fortunate to have mentors.....but that's because I'm a pain in the arse... and those mentors want to teach...but can recognize bullshit from a distance and lack of respect for this whole "gig."


----------



## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

Pubfiction said:


> But I found a lot of information I searched for was very difficult to find. Some times I read through entire huge threads and found nothing, really sucked.


That's how I was when I first started out. I would frequently find either conflicting information on different threads/websites or just totally wrong info altogether, leading to a lot of confusion. So I joined this forum so that I could directly ask experienced members my specific questions. I think that some people are very quick at making assumptions and getting irritated with a lot of these new people; but we all started somewhere, and I think that we should all remember that when replying to these new members


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Pubfiction said:


> Hence my point stickies here aren't doing their job.


Then we need to do something about it. There has been a lot of talk about fixing the care sheets and stickies forever, but no one has stepped up and taken the initiative to do so. I've said many times that I'll happily share my experiences if someone wants to begin editing care sheets. I, like most others here, don't have time to type it all out myself, but if someone does I'll happily add my two cents.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Spaff said:


> Then we need to do something about it. There has been a lot of talk about fixing the care sheets and stickies forever, but no one has stepped up and taken the initiative to do so. I've said many times that I'll happily share my experiences if someone wants to begin editing care sheets. I, like most others here, don't have time to type it all out myself, but if someone does I'll happily add my two cents.


I agree this is something we need to get to... We had some interest in it a while back, if I have some extra time tomorrow I'll dig that back up and see what we can do.


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Spaff said:


> Then we need to do something about it. There has been a lot of talk about fixing the care sheets and stickies forever, but no one has stepped up and taken the initiative to do so. I've said many times that I'll happily share my experiences if someone wants to begin editing care sheets. I, like most others here, don't have time to type it all out myself, but if someone does I'll happily add my two cents.


I think in this case tapping into the power of cloud collaboration is the best way to approach a problem. It breaks things up and spreads out the work. The fundamental driving force of most community forums is a person sort of has owner ship and a big stake in making it successful, that person is now effectively gone and the only people with a stake are the mods as many people are put off by a number of things. 

For a lot of reasons I do not believe anyone will really drive this issue anymore and it will need to be a bigger easier effort, maybe its time to make some other people feel like they have a stake in the forums by making them a mod, dendro dave comes to mind.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pubfiction said:


> I think in this case tapping into the power of cloud collaboration is the best way to approach a problem. It breaks things up and spreads out the work. The fundamental driving force of most community forums is a person sort of has owner ship and a big stake in making it successful, that person is now effectively gone and the only people with a stake are the mods as many people are put off by a number of things.
> 
> For a lot of reasons I do not believe anyone will really drive this issue anymore and it will need to be a bigger easier effort, maybe its time to make some other people feel like they have a stake in the forums by making them a mod, dendro dave comes to mind.


First, thank you for thinking of me  

Second, everyone else stop laughing... Thinking to yourselves " That wack job!?!"

Third, my first order of business would be to abuse my power by enacting a frog tax on every classified ad, where one frog or 10% of the total earned (whichever is of greater value) would go directly to me, while a 2nd frog or 5% earned went into a drawing for the other mods, people i like most, and any pretty girls... Everyone cool with that? 

In seriousness, the idea has been kicked around before. I'm personally on the fence. I accepted the mod job at dartfrogz to help out and get my feet wet, but sadly it just never recovered from the blow up/mass exodus years back. (But special thanks to Marty for the opportunity, and the others that were helping out and way more diligent at deleting spam then I was)

It would be interesting to peek behind the scenes and definitely wanna help out, but often I don't envy these guys their job. I also think there is some benefit to having some senior members that are still free agents/voices or something... And it is nice to be able to pick and choose the drama you want, rather then the drama you are dragged into.

If it is something enough people, and the current mods want/would accept... I'd think about it a bit more seriously, but no promises... you all scare me 

On the other hand it is fun being mad, mad with power might be even more fun!!!! (Muahahaha!)

All hail Zardoz?


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Judy S said:


> a couple of valid points.......and to me, we need to spread the word about forums such as DB. At every reptile show, etc., vendors should let people know about DB, Dart Den, etc....it never fails to surprise me that the people who are looking at frogs to buy do not know where to go to get advice. Hey...wake up, we are in the information age...with every purchase, an information sheet...business card, and encouragement....the more the patrons are exposed, the more frogs will live well and long...and be future buyers...I have been very fortunate to have mentors.....but that's because I'm a pain in the arse... and those mentors want to teach...but can recognize bullshit from a distance and lack of respect for this whole "gig."



I'm kinda surprised more don't do something like this. I always thought if ever I was in a position where I was selling stuff at shows, beyond including origin/line info with my frogs, I'd include like a little primer on dart frog culture and the standard accepted practices so perhaps more people from the other animal hobbies or total newcomers, would have a better chance at not getting culture shock when they find out how crazy we are 

So relevant links and info with all frogs and supplies... or at least the option to take a flyer. Seems.like good PR for the vendor and for the community


----------



## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

carola1155 said:


> I agree this is something we need to get to... We had some interest in it a while back, if I have some extra time tomorrow I'll dig that back up and see what we can do.


To save you trouble here is the thread I started back in October about improving the caresheets: Care Sheet Updates & Other Site Improvements 

Unfortunately, I dropped the ball a bit as I got involved in another project and my real work started picking up significantly. I'd still like to be involved if I have the time though. 

I feel like the caresheet pages need to be something that looks like a permanent webpage instead of a regular forum post. It would lend more credibility to new people who stumble upon the information. However, I have no idea if we have the ability to do that sort of thing. As I said before, we need input from the site admins to see what we can and can't do.


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> I'm kinda surprised more don't do something like this. I always thought if ever I was in a position where I was selling stuff at shows, beyond including origin/line info with my frogs, I'd include like a little primer on dart frog culture and the standard accepted practices so perhaps more people from the other animal hobbies or total newcomers, would have a better chance at not getting culture shock when they find out how crazy we are
> 
> So relevant links and info with all frogs and supplies... or at least the option to take a flyer. Seems.like good PR for the vendor and for the community


This is also complex, in a nut shell conflict of interest. Some vendors have their own site, others just aren't organized enough to print something out. Still others may feel that sending a person directly into a place that lists all their competitors is not good for business. it is not only at shows but also social media sites. And finally for reasons mentioned here and other places some people just do not like dendroboard anymore, part of it do to the climate, part due to administration and part due to the vertical scope take over and huge price hike on sponsors. 





Dev30ils said:


> To save you trouble here is the thread I started back in October about improving the caresheets: Care Sheet Updates & Other Site Improvements
> 
> Unfortunately, I dropped the ball a bit as I got involved in another project and my real work started picking up significantly. I'd still like to be involved if I have the time though.
> 
> I feel like the caresheet pages need to be something that looks like a permanent webpage instead of a regular forum post. It would lend more credibility to new people who stumble upon the information. However, I have no idea if we have the ability to do that sort of thing. As I said before, we need input from the site admins to see what we can and can't do.


Vertical scope also owns many other forums that run software that has the same base as forum as dendroboard, the difference is many of those forums actually have databases and things in place to write articles and have species lists and even comments in those. Plantedtank.net is just one such place. On top of that you can always do a wiki, which would sidestep all the problems and was something I suggested a long time ago. A wiki would allow many people to contribute and give you a good format for interlinking items and creating a flow. So a new person comes in and can sort of start at the beginning just like a book and work their way through it, or they can hit individual items. If anyone at vertical scope would allow a database migration is anyone's guess given they have done other things to cut costs around here.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pubfiction said:


> This is also complex, in a nut shell conflict of interest. Some vendors have their own site, others just aren't organized enough to print something out. Still others may feel that sending a person directly into a place that lists all their competitors is not good for business. it is not only at shows but also social media sites. And finally for reasons mentioned here and other places some people just do not like dendroboard anymore, part of it do to the climate, part due to administration and part due to the vertical scope take over and huge price hike on sponsors.


Ya, you know me... gotta be different, (and hopefully make that work for me)  




Pubfiction said:


> Vertical scope also owns many other forums that run software that has the same base as forum as dendroboard, the difference is many of those forums actually have databases and things in place to write articles and have species lists and even comments in those. Plantedtank.net is just one such place. On top of that you can always do a wiki, which would sidestep all the problems and was something I suggested a long time ago. A wiki would allow many people to contribute and give you a good format for interlinking items and creating a flow. So a new person comes in and can sort of start at the beginning just like a book and work their way through it, or they can hit individual items. If anyone at vertical scope would allow a database migration is anyone's guess given they have done other things to cut costs around here.


This sounds promising, and maybe if we get a framework in place it will fill in over time instead of waiting for one or a few people to pretty much do it all at once and post it. 

If people who are well versed in dendro history don't have to write it all down at once, but instead pop in when in the mood or think of something new... maybe that would ease the burden on them. Maybe since it would be something that informed the actions of so many in the future it would even be worth the time/effort of some of the frog gods of old'n days to come back, if just to contribute to that.

Some of us have been around long enough to glean some of it, but no one can fill in the who, what, where, when, and why like the people who were actually there and doing it. Would be a shame to not to have that down for posterity I think.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I think for many vendors it is better the hobbyists don't know about online forums and whatnot. That way the can charge high prices for subpar livestock and supplies. I do think it is hobbyists responsibility to find the information and make connections with others.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

ouch.....am not real clear about your post...sarcasm or truth?? You certainly have been on DB quite a while so I can understand some of what you have posted...but com'on....


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Judy, I think he is absolutely correct, and the same could be said for most pet stores as well. You can sell more if you keep people ignorant... in fact you can sell them one of every color!


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

I agree with Joseph. I don't think his comments are directed at many businesses that began in the PDF hobby (like many of our sponsors or large-scale hobbyists who vend at shows), but there are large herp vendors at our local shows that sell newly morphed, skinny Dendrobates spp. for $50-75+. If those buying these overpriced, underage frogs knew they could obtain the same ones but higher quality for half the price or less through another hobbyist, then the large show vendors would take a hit at least with PDF sales.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Spaff/srrrio: you are correct. 

Judy I guess I should clarify-certainly no ill will to the many of our vendors and hobbyists here, who produce and distribute quality animals.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

aside from the cynicism ....this is like what comes first--chicken or egg. Something, or someone has to stimulate the interest in this endeavor...them the pursuit...so if someone sells a crappy frog either the person persevers and decides to learn...or just gives up. If we sit back and wait for all that to happen, we miss a good opportunity to educate. Since "we" are the experienced people--we are obligated to out the bad vendors....and if people are informed through forums such as DB, the new people can see what their money should buy. True, there is nothing like experience...but I still think we should find opportunities to expose people to this "hobby."


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

If someone was truly motivated and wanted to do something I would recommend they look into the nonprofit / local groups sections at reptile shows. These may be free or low cost so long as you agree not to sell anything from your table. 

However you would need to be careful how you approach that, a show also has a vested interest in keeping their vendors happy if you come in burning down bridges saying go here to get frogs cheaper or those vendors are ripping you off they will probably not invite you back, or maybe even kick you out.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

understood completely...but I wonder how difficult it would be to have a "seminar" section at some of these gatherings...presentations about the care, etc. of frogs...nothing fancy. And I still think letting people know that forums are available is a positive step...sorry. With my first frogs, tree frogs, I was just winging it until told about DB, DartDen,etc., etc. and perhaps that is why I still believe in letting people know early in the hobby that there is help beyond the sales table.


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

It is not difficult to do talks, some shows have to pay people to give talks and would be thrilled if someone would do a seminar on pretty much anything related for free. There is really nothing holding people back from any of this except time and care.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

so the people who are so concerned about the abuses either have to decide to step up, step aside, or step back....basically that's where it's at....


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> It is not difficult to do talks, some shows have to pay people to give talks and would be thrilled if someone would do a seminar on pretty much anything related for free. There is really nothing holding people back from any of this except time and care.


I've done many talks on a variety of topics and am available for more talks if people are interested. Generally I just need help getting around. 

Ed


----------



## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

i think this thread written in 2004 belongs here

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/834-perspectives-hobby.html


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

It's funny that this thread got bumped today as I was finalizing the plans for our "Frog Christmas" get together this weekend 

Happy frogging folks!


----------



## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

It would be kinda cool if we did like a "yearly recap" to see what progress is being made year over year both in the hobby (in relation to husbandry, new techniques, products that are "game changers," etc.) and the science aspects (such as the reclassification of species we saw/continue to see)

Thoughts?


----------



## inka4040 (Oct 14, 2010)

From a non-frogger's perspective, I just wanna say that this is one of the last forums I still frequent, mainly because this place, unlike a lot of the aquarium related ones that have come and gone, consistently has people who are pushing the boundaries of creative construction. Petty frog quibbles aside, the members here are making really cool stuff, and are for the most part, very generous with their info. 

It's not all gloom and doom, folks.


----------



## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

I have to agree with the last poster. I started out on this forum shortly before beginning my large build. I expected tons of crap from folks from not doing it the "way it was supposed to be done" but have not gotten that at all. there are trolls on all the forums I am on, and with my wide variety of interests it is quite a few, but I think the general behavior of posters on this site is reasonable. I also find it enjoyable to watch people try out new build types and ideas. I find the drive to the latest greatest frogs to exactly parallel the trends that happen in reefing. there will always be people who want the latest greatest, and that is fine. I still like my basic frogs and amaze the people who come into my house and see them.


----------



## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

I just chanced upon this thread, and I will throw out some of my opinions (and they are only opinions), as I believe I can represent some of the "younger" folks. To be precise I am 18 years old.

There is no doubt that this forum has taught me almost everything I know about the care and husbandry of dart frogs. And the funny part is, I don't even own any yet! I've been on the forum for maybe a year, maybe a little more now, and there is much to love and a little to dislike about the forum, and I can see how the shift from hobby to industry has degraded the personal and human interactions that I believe are so necessary for a community to develop. For one, I truly enjoy seeing all the wonderful and varied builds that are undertaken every day. Indeed, I would say that 80% of what I have learned has been from these threads, seeing what mistakes people have made, improvements discovered, plant and frog choices, and just general tidbits of information that I have squirreled away for future use.

Something, though, that I distinctly wish for and am confused on how to obtain, is the network of personal relationships and contacts that can make a hobby so endearing. As a matter of fact, I went to my first reptile show here in North Carolina just this November, and it was the first time I have ever been able to speak about the various facets of frogging to someone else without it sounding like I spoke a completely different language. And while it lasted only for a couple of minutes, it left me wondering what more I was missing. I don't think I've even sent out a PM to another member, and I'll admit that I'm even a little fearful to do so. I worry that older, more senior members might dislike having a relatively inexperienced 18 year old making social advances. And I can understand that perspective. At the same time, though, I would love nothing more than to attend a meeting like MADS or even be able contact froggers around where I live or even create a hobbyist group here, but I'm just so lost on how to find or contact others, and I really don't even know where to start. As of right now, it is only a dream. 

I know that this hobby will stay with me for the rest of my life, it's too addicting not to, and I would very much like to start relationships that will last for that entirety. It almost makes me wish that I could time travel back in time to when the hobby was more a network of fellowship and peers so that I could get a taste of such an experience. 

Ultimately, though, this forum has much to offer, and the pros far outweigh the cons, but at the same time I feel that opinions ought to be respected more and that the snide comments and bitter responses ought to be tamped down and more one on one conversation should be engaged, at least with some of the newer folks that wish to enter the hobby more fully. I feel that many "noobs" stop and go, or troll and act idiotic and give a bad impression for those that wish to stay here more permanently.

Josh


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

That is a thoughtful post Josh. I am sure MADS would love to have you. I think a lot of people feel a bit lost in making connections, but all in all I found the hobby really does transcend age, sex, etc. and sharing a genuine love of the frogs, enclosures, plants, and even bugs tends to get you through. Reach out!

I always forget about the friendship request thing on here but I will send one to you 

Okay that was my quota on being positive, now back to being dire and dark.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

inka4040 said:


> It's not all gloom and doom, folks.


No its not all doom and gloom but there are aspects of it that many people are either ignoring or haven't heard/read. 

As an example of problems in the hobby, why are so many frogs being imported yet we see very little if any F2, F3 etc of those populations? As an example


> Here is the commercial use data from the CITES trade database (as a gross report) without the numbers for 2010 yet. From 2004-2007 there actually more than 16,000 pumilio exported from Panama alone for commercial purposes (with more than 22,000 between 2004-2009). In the period of 04-09; 3873 pumilio were exported from the US. If I wasn't tired I could pull up the trade report per reporting country so where the frogs went could at least in part be seen.


. 


This is one aspect of the hobby that seems to not have changed very much ... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Yes, I've been following some of this from the other thread you posted this information in, and it's something that I find tragic and at the same time, almost mysterious. I believe that a large percentage of those that, to put it in crude terms, "hit and quit" the hobby, the ones that don't properly care for the animals (which is purely subjective but still there are general accepted parameters), are unseen or at least unnoticed because they are less likely to be on the forums, or to speak to other hobbyists. With such large numbers of imports, as well, there is little doubt that the treatment of the animals in the shipping process is measurably less than ideal. If the frogs aren't killed in transit, they might be killed in the months after from weakness or stress. Of course I am a novice in comparison to you, and that's why I follow many of your posts, I hope to increase my knowledge of the hobby, and your objective view is often welcome in the midst of so much subjective debate and catty argumentation. 

Something I dislike very much is how many keepers of herps don't care about the longevity of the animal's life, but rather keep it in substandard conditions so that they can have the satisfaction of seeing that animal and maybe even building its enclosure, but then becoming bored after a couple months or years, and finding the constant care too tiring. I have just set up my tank for its future residents, and I hope to buy from a trusted keeper/breeder here on the forum rather than at a show, but it makes me wonder about how the buying and selling of frogs could become something more for the benefit of the dedicated hobbyist rather than the potential greed of a wholesaler or even smaller breeder who's only hoping to make a quick buck. Maybe some thoughts on your part?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jarteta97 said:


> n comparison to you, and that's why I follow many of your posts, I hope to increase my knowledge of the hobby, and your objective view is often welcome in the midst of so much subjective debate and catty argumentation.


I'm not always objective ... there are more than a few cases where I've set that aside to engage in other actions. 



jarteta97 said:


> Something I dislike very much is how many keepers of herps don't care about the longevity of the animal's life



There are a number of factors that play into this but perhaps the greatest factor is that people place a huge amount of emphasis and status on breeding the frogs and not on the other aspects of the frog's biology and behavior. Reproduction of the vast majority of dendrobatids has become cookbook and anyone who can read a recipe can do it. 

When considering the success of a species in a collection (hobbyist or institutional it is the same) there are really three factors that have to be considered. The first is the easiest and its breeding. The second is behavior. Is the animal demonstrating a wide variety of natural behaviors or are there a lot of abnormal behaviors occurring (an example of this is male obligate egg feeders transporting tadpoles as females normally refuse to feed a tadpole that isn't in a location the female chose). The third is longevity and we can see on multiple levels that the hobby has a long way to go with that part of it. 




jarteta97 said:


> but rather keep it in substandard conditions so that they can have the satisfaction of seeing that animal and maybe even building its enclosure, but then becoming bored after a couple months or years, and finding the constant care too tiring.


Substandard enclosures can mean a lot of things with respect to these frogs. For example, it wasn't that long ago that the hobby began to switch from moss covered substrates to leaf litter but another one is how the enclosures are set-up and planted. If you look at the pictures of where the primarily terrestrial species are found, they are not heavily planted like the enclosures where attempts are made to cover as much of the enclosure as possible. Instead they are often found in large leaf beds (look at some of the travel pictures). All of this planting can actually reduce the amount of space the frogs have to engage in normal behaviors. Or if we consider the habitat where the arboreal species are found, the bromeliads can occur in small patches with large bare areas between them yet the average frog keeper tries to cover that empty space. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm not sure I would characterize the hobby exactly as you did. However, if a sense of shared community is important to you and something you looked for in the hobby then I think that's totally valid. I tend to be an introvert, so it's not something I was looking for. I probably started reading the forums around the same time as you, but I didn't joint for a couple years later. I came here initially because of the pictures. Then I stayed to read and gain some knowledge/hints into a hobby I didn't know existed for most of my life. The pictures of all the different tanks and frogs was incredible. So many people trying so many amazing things. Trial and error was just as important to me as successes. But over time I noticed a lot of ego and superiority complexes/personalities. New or old are jumped on and criticized often for doing something different or straying from the path (which at times is cloaked in "educating" the new folks - when all it really is doing is telling someone to do it like this because I said). I see new people hammered for not using a search function and posting the "same thread over and over." When the easiest thing to do would be to ignore the thread of your tired of seeing them instead of posting something like "READ THE ..." or "USE THE SEARCH FEATURE..." But life is about change, nothing stays the same and I don't think their is much anyone can do. I think at the end of the day it's up to each individual to gain what they can from the hobby/forum/etc. Try to enjoy what you can here and avoid the more ugly side (harder to do if your a mod  ).




Luke-O-Melas said:


> Like in any community, you will get the good and the bad. Or in this case, the smart and the not-so-smart.
> 
> That is why we need to help educate and be somewhat tolerant of those ever reoccurring questions.
> 
> The truth is, governments and scientists are not the major contributors to conservation. The best possible future, any future, for these frogs lies in the hands of hobbyists like all of you.


That last part, I'll disagree with pretty strongly and the last sentence I think is a large part of the danger that I see appearing on this forum. Maybe in Canada government and scientists don't do that much. I don't know, I've never been to Canada let alone lived there. But in the US, the US Fish and Wildlife Service and National Marine Fisheries Service are doing a lot for conservation, not to mention the State wildlife agencies and the research being done by numerous others like the US Geological Survey. From my own experience, just one project, in one county, in one state, over 10,000 acres have been acquired and protected for endangered species in the last 7-8 years). And there are many other efforts just like that one going on all over the county. Conservation lies in a collaborative effort from a great number of stakeholders. I wouldn't say it is in the hands of any one group and it certainly doesn't reside solely in the hands of the hobby. Every group has something to contribute, and when we recognize all those different roles and stop assuming someone else isn't doing something, or someone is doing it "wrong", or that the hobby is going to heal all the woes I think the better off we will be.


----------



## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

No idea when Robb did it, but the German's were doing it when I got into the hobby in the early 80's. Just saying. 

Best,

Chuck


Tricolor said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong Robb is a oldtimer and is the first to feed egg yoke to frogs. That's where I believe I heard of it years ago. I heard second hand someone having good success feeding yolk with a mixture of vitamins powder.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Agreed Chuck, one of the first books I got which had a plastic spiral binder detailed a German guy attempting to rear Pumilio tads with egg yolk mixture, it was a chronicled 2 year exercise in mostly frustration and failure until he got it right. I remember he mentioned pouring one well developed tad down the drain.
Imagine if everyone had to wait 3 months to post their for sale ads in your IDG news letter today, that would be fun


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I showed up in the early 2000's. I think I may have had another account for awhile that I lost/forgot about, but I remember around then reading of Robb's egg feeding experiments.

I myself attempted to raise an orphaned darklands tad this way, and did see the tad eat the yolk, but after 2 weeks to a month the tad perished, possibly due to water quality issues with excess food in the water.


----------



## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

tardis101 said:


> That last part, I'll disagree with pretty strongly and the last sentence I think is a large part of the danger that I see appearing on this forum. Maybe in Canada government and scientists don't do that much. I don't know, I've never been to Canada let alone lived there. But in the US, the US Fish and Wildlife Service and National Marine Fisheries Service are doing a lot for conservation, not to mention the State wildlife agencies and the research being done by numerous others like the US Geological Survey. From my own experience, just one project, in one county, in one state, over 10,000 acres have been acquired and protected for endangered species in the last 7-8 years). And there are many other efforts just like that one going on all over the county. Conservation lies in a collaborative effort from a great number of stakeholders. I wouldn't say it is in the hands of any one group and it certainly doesn't reside solely in the hands of the hobby. Every group has something to contribute, and when we recognize all those different roles and stop assuming someone else isn't doing something, or someone is doing it "wrong", or that the hobby is going to heal all the woes I think the better off we will be.




You've obviously never been to Alaska. Fish and game and the state are the absolute worst enemies of actual nature conservation and research in that state; ironic, as it has the most and best untamed wilderness left in the US, if not some of the world. The state institutions are run by hunting lobbyists and people with art degrees (I kid you not). They're the ones out there gunning down wolves and bears and gassing wolf cubs in dens just to increase moose hunting possibilities (a pretty un-substantiated branch of research to begin with). That being said, I can't imagine Alaska is the only state this way. I know Kansas for a while had it's share of difficulties in that dept. as well when I lived there. So yeah, it's not uncommon for state agencies to not be strong contributors to conservation, and in some cases they are directly responsible for taking several steps backwards.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> Agreed Chuck, one of the first books I got which had a plastic spiral binder detailed a German guy attempting to rear Pumilio tads with egg yolk mixture, it was a chronicled 2 year exercise in mostly frustration and failure until he got it right. I remember he mentioned pouring one well developed tad down the drain.
> Imagine if everyone had to wait 3 months to post their for sale ads in your IDG news letter today, that would be fun


The first reports that I'm aware of were by Bechter in 1978. I think this is the original citation. Its from Bechter that all of the original discussion have originated. 

BECHTER, R., 1978. Das Ei des Kolumbus. Zur Aufzucht von Dendrobates pumilio und lehmanni. Aquarien-Magazin 1978 (6) : 273-276.

There is also some good information out there that other obligate egg feeding anurans eggs have very very different nutrition profiles than that of chicken eggs. This includes lipids that aren't digested but are absorbed without digestion. This could easily explain the problems with rearing the tadpoles (and it also ignores the fact that the egg may not contain a sufficient amount of protein and that in the feeder eggs the entire contents of the egg are consumed so the protein profiles could easily be very very different). 

For some of the links on the other obligate egg feeding egg profiles vs chicken yolks see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...ilio-tadpole-progression-pics.html#post785234 


Some comments 

Ed


----------



## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

I'm a newb for sure, having had my frogs for less than a year. I'm extremely glad I found this board and for all the knowledge to be found here. I've been away from it for a number of months, mostly because I was pretty busy over the summer and my frogs were doing great so I didn't really have any burning questions. I got the newsletter in my email the other day which made me think I'd better check in and start reading up on some topics since my frogs are approaching the age of sexual maturity and I want to be able to do things like sexing, spotting aggression behavior, mating behaviors, breeding does and dont's, etc. This board also was the venue through which I met a local frogger who has been very kind and helpful: setting me up with my first FF culture supplies, giving me some cuttings, showing me his awesome collection, selling me my two beloved Azureus, and hooking my lady friend up with a FF culture when I was out of town and mine crashed. Not all of my exchanges on this board have been pleasant (though I have my hand in that) but most of them have been. Even when the exchange was "read this thread". 

Anyway, I can't really speak to how things used to be and how that compares to now, but I can say that I'm very glad I discovered dendroboard and I'm thankful for all of you who have and continue to share your knowledge and experience.


----------



## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

TarantulaGuy said:


> You've obviously never been to Alaska. Fish and game and the state are the absolute worst enemies of actual nature conservation and research in that state; ironic, as it has the most and best untamed wilderness left in the US, if not some of the world. The state institutions are run by hunting lobbyists and people with art degrees (I kid you not). They're the ones out there gunning down wolves and bears and gassing wolf cubs in dens just to increase moose hunting possibilities (a pretty un-substantiated branch of research to begin with). That being said, I can't imagine Alaska is the only state this way. I know Kansas for a while had it's share of difficulties in that dept. as well when I lived there. So yeah, it's not uncommon for state agencies to not be strong contributors to conservation, and in some cases they are directly responsible for taking several steps backwards.


Nope, I haven't been to Alaska, that's true. It maybe exactly like you said, but the two main agencies I mentioned are federal agencies and both are tasked with (at least in part) implementing the Endangered Species Act. While both are influenced by politics to some degree because of who's in the White House, that can change every 4 years. State Agencies...i can see being totally different. They I'm sure can also be influenced by politics, and if the state is a "solid" red perhaps it wouldn't be particularly good in terms of conservation. So far I've only lived in "blue" states, so I haven't had bad experiences with the state conservation agencies. But my original point was just that governments and scientists are in fact doing a lot as a whole.


----------

