# Dart frog nearly unresponsive- looking for any help?



## Laws (Jun 5, 2020)

I originally made a post on ****** and was told I should make a post here, answering some questions. I'll attach the originally post and the questions answered to the best of my ability. 

"I just got a cobalt blue poison dart frog from a reptile show about 4 days ago. He was moving around, was out at the front of the tank, and doing very well.

Hes in a small exo terra bioactive setup. I've dumped some dusted fruit flies in, as well as some dusted pinhead crickets. 

He wasnt active yesterday, so i figured id check up on him today. I found him seemingly unresponsive. I attempted gently touching him with some tongs, with absolutely no response. Up until this point, he was very skiddish and would have surely jumped away. 

I put some gloves on, figuring he may have been dead, and as gently as I could, removed him. I flipped him over on his back to see if he was breathing. At first, he didn't appear to be. He was literally your epitome of what a dead frog looks like. After a little bit, he seemed to start breathing, and his eyes were open. With some new hope, I put him back into the enclosure. He seems to not be able to move. I accidentally let him down on his back, and he couldn't flip over by himself, so i had to flip him as carefully as i could. 

I'm so worried and approximately || this close to bursting into tears. I've kept frogs before and have never ran into something like this. Any help is greatly appreciated. 

I've kept the setup moist, the only thing I'm worried i might have done wrong is a put a very small water dish in. I did some research and found that it was alright, but im worried that might have something to do with this. I just took it out because I found fruit fly larvae in it. Is there any reports of larvae killing a frog? Again, any help is greatly appreciated. I dont know what to do. Thank you."

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

A. He was labeled as a cobalt blue dart frog. I got him at a repti show from a local reptile store here in Florida. I got him on Sunday, so its been just shy of a week.

2. What are your Temperatures -Day and Night - Highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?

A. I live in Florida so our house is kept at about 70. I do have a UVB bulb on the tank that I'm sure generates a bit of heat during the day, but nothing substantial. The light goes off at night. 

3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using ? Describe your tank/enclosure and it's lid or top.

A. He's in a bioactive exo terra setup. The lid is acrylic to keep in moisture. I tend to mist once a day or as needed- if I see a lot of moisture I'll hold off. I dont have a humidity gauge in there yet, but with the acrylic lid it stays pretty humid. I did have a small water dish in, but I just removed it.

4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?

A. I have provided both flightless fruit flies and pinhead crickets, both dusted with a flukers repta calcium powder. As far as it being fresh, im not sure what the standard is. I'd say I got it about a month ago from a local pet shop. 

5. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ? 

A. Nope, just him alone. 

6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ?

A. I did notice on one occasion that he seemed to be making the movement a dart frog makes to eat, but with no prey items present. Like he was eating ghost fruit flies. I observed this only one time though. Otherwise, he was active and doing great up until this point. I do think he looks skinny though- although I've never had dart frogs in particular, so I have a very untrained eye. 

7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays ect near the tank ?

A. No perfumes or anything that I know of. His tank is kept right next to all of my other critters, so its a pretty safe spot. I've never handled him until today, when I used powder free gloves to check up on him. 

8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help. 

A. I have some pictures, but I admittedly don't know how to attach them here. I'll see if I can comment with some pictures.


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## Laws (Jun 5, 2020)

Louis https://imgur.com/gallery/J5Tz4Jl

I think this should link to some images

EDIT : In the first picture he is in water, as i contacted the breeder and they suggested soaking him.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

UV(b) burns the frogs skin! Take it away RIGHT NOW!!

How did you transport the frog?


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## Organics (Jan 17, 2020)

Nvm 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Your frog does not look healthy at all. You purchased a very skiny sick frog..

Your dusting provides no nutricien at all, buy Repashy CAl+, and VItA+ to dust your feeders with asap!

Why is your frog in water?

It seems to me you need to do a lot more research on keeping dartfrogs!
Where are you planing to keep him? (if he makes it..) That tank is waaaaaaaay to small..


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I'm glad to see my 'Initial frog problem questionnaire' is being used. Very good.

Mods here blurred out the place where you initially posted this but rest assured, it wasn't my forum.

The pic is very telling.

The enclosure is too small. only fitting size for a spider or bug

The lid looks stiffeling and not allowing enough ventilation. This combined with high heat from room temps and a hot blub may have cooked the frog.

It looks small and unhealthy and probably was not eating correctly - malnutrition.

quite a few things wrong here -#1 the small enclosure, lack of proper ventilation.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Tijl said:


> UV(b) burns the frogs skin! Take it away RIGHT NOW!!
> 
> How did you transport the frog?



Im sorry, but this is incorrect. Unless you mean a mercury vapor unit. In that case a frog would expire from the heat before it would get 'burned'.

Its just not true that commercial uvb tubes burn dart frog (or mantella) skin. I know this for a fact. From use for years with half a dozen or so taxa. I didnt just stick a fixture on the set ups. The environment changes in perception for the frogs, and there are dermal detection features. I raised hordes of golden mantella froglets as an example, with a UVB tube over their low profile 4 ' rear viv.

Yes there is data of dendrobates with avoidance behavior at higher levels, and Im not "recommending" anything to anyone.

But lets not start a cannonized hyperbole, there is so much available out there already


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## Laws (Jun 5, 2020)

He was in the water as I contacted the breeder with the issue and they suggested I soak him in water. They also assured me he would be perfectly fine in that enclosure for the duration of his life, so im disappointed to hear that isnt true  thank you for the information


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## Laws (Jun 5, 2020)

Philsuma said:


> I'm glad to see my 'Initial frog problem questionnaire' is being used. Very good.
> 
> Mods here blurred out the place where you initially posted this but rest assured, it wasn't my forum.
> 
> ...


Should i remove the light? I do have a screen lid, would it benefit to swap the acrylic for the screen? And is there anything I can do for the frog to try and help it? Thank you for all the advice. I was told by the breeders that this size tank was perfect for one alone, so im sad to hear that was false. Ill definitely look into getting a bigger one as soon as i can.


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## Laws (Jun 5, 2020)

Tijl said:


> UV(b) burns the frogs skin! Take it away RIGHT NOW!!
> 
> How did you transport the frog?


He was in a plastic container with some sphagnum moss.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

remove the light for good.

the lid should have about 15-20% open screen and the rest glass.

You need an enclosure about the size of a 10 gallon fish tank for your frog. 10 gallon fish tanks are common and everywhere. You can also google image and quickly see the size.

The tank seems moist / humid enough for now.

Are you sure it is still alive? It looks dead. It should not have a 'V' shape where it gets skinny back to its legs. It should be on the plump side. 

There is no miracle treatment to help here, I'm afraid. as long as it is moist, but it looks too far gone. If it doesn't pull itself up or feed, then it's too far gone.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Well, UVB doesn't penetrate acrylic, so there is no harm being done yet. That said, don't use that UVB lamp right now -- that's advanced practice, if at all.

You can cut the acrylic down so that it is about ... you're in Florida... half covering the screen area. (Edit: yeah Philsuma's advice is good, since such a tiny viv -- is that an 8 x 8? -- will dry quickly.)

Your frog should be in an 18 x 18 ExoTerra minimum, 18 or 24 tall. Use an LED fixture for lighting. 

Use Repashy Calcium Plus for dusting melanogaster FFs every time you feed, which should be small numbers daily or twice daily until the frog puts some weight on -- throw away the supplement you have as soon as you get the Ca+.

Read here. Read, read, read.

Do not contact the breeder you got the frog from unless it is to post a negative review on their FB or whatever. They are not giving you any correct info, and sold you a very unhealthy frog.

Read, read, read.


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## Laws (Jun 5, 2020)

Philsuma said:


> remove the light for good.
> 
> the lid should have about 15-20% open screen and the rest glass.
> 
> ...


Yeah, he was that V shape when I got him the other day. The breeders offered to replace him but I'm afraid the others are probably sick as well. 

I'll definitely take that light off and fix the lid. 

And he's moved a few times, the water seemed to help a bit, but other then that hes not moving... he's still alive but I doubt for long. 

Thank you again. I feel terrible but I dont think there's anything I can do. He was this skinny when I got him and I was assured by the breeders everything I was doing was right, so im kicking myself for so readily trusting that. 

I have two healthy milk frogs so this is a total shocker for me. 

Would it benefit at all to move him to a small critter keeper with some paper towel as substrate and some prey items? Or would that stress him out even more? I did some research on quarantine tanks but I dont think he can move at all on any sort of sphagnum or uneven terrain.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Laws said:


> The breeders offered to replace him but I'm afraid the others are probably sick as well.


When I replied before, I meant to put "breeder" in big scare quotes -- this is almost certainly not a person who breeds frogs, but rather one that buys wholesale and sells to unsuspecting people at shows like Repticon (which does not have a good reputation). No, don't get another sick frog.

None of this is to bash you, Laws; you're doing all you can now. In the future you'll do much more research, I'm certain.


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## Laws (Jun 5, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> When I replied before, I meant to put "breeder" in big scare quotes -- this is almost certainly not a person who breeds frogs, but rather one that buys wholesale and sells to unsuspecting people at shows like Repticon (which does not have a good reputation). No, don't get another sick frog.
> 
> None of this is to bash you, Laws; you're doing all you can now. In the future you'll do much more research, I'm certain.


This was my first time ever purchasing from a (you guessed it) repticon and I dont think I will again in the future. I've kept all sorts of critters and ive never had any issues like this until now  

Thank you for the warning with big shows. It sucks that there's so much misinformation around.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Laws said:


> This was my first time ever purchasing from a (you guessed it) repticon and I dont think I will again in the future. I've kept all sorts of critters and ive never had any issues like this until now
> 
> Thank you for the warning with big shows. It sucks that there's so much misinformation around.


Yes, there is a lot of misinformation around, not at all limited to a specific hobby. There are dozens of reasons to utter any statement, but only one of those reasons is "because it is true".

The problem with certain shows (not necessarily related to size) is that vendors are not vetted, and are not uninvited when complaints about them come to light. I used to vend at a local/regional show in NW Wisconsin, and one vendor was shown afterwards to have sold an animal with external parasites. That vendor was publicly uninvited from the next show.

Shows in general encourage impulse buying, which isn't the right way to acquire captive animals. Attendees need to do their homework before a show: look at the online presence of each of the vendors listed, and note whether they are worth buying from (search forums, try to read between the lines on their FB posts, Google the owners' names and see if maybe they've served time for wildlife trafficking...). Also, do not take a vendor's husbandry info as true unless it jives with what a buyer should already know -- standing at the vendor's table is way, way too late to be learning about basic care practices, which should already have been worked out weeks to months beforehand.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

After watching a colubrid "breeder" with shakey fingers try and fail to produce a hemipenes for a doe eyed young customer and family, I then watched as he rifled through crap to find a paperclip which he bent open to sex the snake.

And THAT was the last time I went to a show.

Havent missed it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> After watching a colubrid "breeder" with shakey fingers try and fail to produce a hemipenes for a doe eyed young customer and family, I then watched as he rifled through crap to find a paperclip which he bent open to sex the snake.
> 
> And THAT was the last time I went to a show.
> 
> Havent missed it.


Ouch. 

I'm even put off by the fact that vendors show up with animals they have not yet sexed -- that info needs to be right on the deli cup. I even include feeding records with snakes I sell at shows, which i also think should be normal practice.


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## lovelybutterfly79 (Jul 20, 2018)

Awe man. I am so sorry to hear your little guy is not doing so well. I just lost one of by bumbles and he looked exactly like this and behaved the same way with the whole falling on his back and not flipping over. And he would sit in the water and not eat. Took him to the vet where they did a fecal, de-wormed him and gave him antibiotics. He seemed to do better after a few days of treatment but that didn't last very long. He unfortunately died from failure to thrive. He was just too sick and hand feeding him, meds, and electrolyte water just couldn't save him. I hope that your little guy snaps out of it but you may want to prepare for good byes.


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