# Just ABG mix as ground substrate - possible?



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Hi there.
I don't have the time right now to build several new tanks the way I've done before (made from pvc forex boards and with drainage holes)

So I ordered 10 exo terra:
12x12x18 x 3
18x18x18 x 4
18x18x24 x 3
I hope these are the right dimensions, I had to convert this from cm to inch 

Now I have two possibilities for the ground:

a.) I silicone a sheet of styrofoam on the bottom. This will be coated with PU two-component adhesive and peat - that's what I always make my backgrounds of. I won't cover the whole bottom, so I will have a water feature in the front area. This will allow the ground to easily dry. I did this many times before and this will work okay. I can siphon the water and in a dry season there is still enough water left for the frogs.

*b.) I use ABG mix.*

I never before used ABG mix and therefor don't know if the following will work: 
Is it possible for me to* use ONLY ABG mix*, let's say 2.5 - 3 inch high, with leaf litter on the top? So if I mist moderately every other day will the amount of water which evaporates and the amount of water which I supply balance each other?

*I don't want to use a false bottom* because I always want to have the possibility to easily remove the whole substrate in one go if needed. 

I ask for method (b), because with (a) I never have the possibility to use some plants which need soil and I read many good things about ABG mix (microfauna, drainage and so on).

Or should I always prefer method (a)?
Any suggestions?

BTW: *What is orchid bark?* From the pics to me it looks like fine pine bark? Is it something else?

greets,
ctfl


----------



## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

You are going to need a drainage layer of some sort. Either a false bottom made with eggcrate, pvc, and screen. Or made of pea gravel, LECA/Hydroton, or something like Josh's Frogs False Bottom (Which is a GREEN product that uses recycle glass that is crushed down to a powder and reformed into what resembles a synthetic lava rock)
I highly recommend the product from Josh's as it is an environmentally conscious product that works great and weighs very little compared to Hydroton.

If you just go with ABG and no drainage layer your substrate will get soggy and nasty. It will also likely become anaerobic which would allow different pathogens to grow at a high rate that wouldnt normally survive. This can be dangerous to the animals as well as plant life.


----------



## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

Have you considered doing a European style "double bottom"?
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ean-type-vivarium-step-step-3.html#post321360

It's just like option A, but with glass instead. 
If you do some searches on styrofoam you'll find that it might not be safe to use in vivariums.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Thx to both of you.

Well, I don't get Josh's substrate over here (I am located in Germany). I know the european type, these tanks are very common in Germany, but I personally dislike them. These moats are always very narrow (I'm almost sure I didn't use the right vocabulary  ) and frogs cannot easily escape if for example stressed by a rival. You always have to put alot of stuff in there to help the frogs climb out (which isn't easy as they are so narrow OR use a lot of the ground space).

I don't have had any problems with styrofoam sealed with PU for years. I use styrofoam coated with several sealings since at least 10 years.
Just FYI 

I think I will use method (a) then, though it would have been nice to have some plants in soil.


----------



## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Seems like a waste of time and material to me if you are just going to throw ABG mix in a tank with no drainage layer. 
Not to mention a very real health risk to your animals. 
Its just as easy to add some Hydroton/LECA or Growstone. This will allow your substrate to not get water logged.
Clay Pebbles vs Growstones. Out with the old, in with the new! | Growstone

I add a piece of screen or weed block between the drainage layer and ABG


----------



## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

BTW,

Option A seems like a VERY BAD idea. Where will your frogs hide for cover? What will keep them from dehydrating aside from the water feature in the front? If you dont have substrate that holds moisture, they are going to spend more time in the water area than is natural for them.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Dartfrogfreak said:


> BTW,
> 
> Option A seems like a VERY BAD idea. Where will your frogs hide for cover? What will keep them from dehydrating aside from the water feature in the front? If you dont have substrate that holds moisture, they are going to spend more time in the water area than is natural for them.


Err...what? I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I get this right. Very bad idea? I keep frogs (a lot!) since ~10 years and as I already mentioned above I do exactly this technique since a very long time with all kinds of tanks where I am not able to drill a drainage. I have a glass drill, I even cut the glass myself and as I live in Europe I of course know how to build an European type vivarium.

I just wanted to know if ABG mix, which I personally didn't know until I read a bit more here on dendroboard would have some special drainage facilities, i.e. due to the large amount of tree fern fiber and sphagnum in it or whatever.
Now I know it doesn't. That's okay.

But...

My frogs usually don't hide IN the substrate, they are frogs, not toads... 

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not immune to feedback, otherwise I would not have asked 

But I don't understand why people start telling me styrofoam to be toxic or that I would prevent my frogs from hiding somewhere.
I don't use blank styrofoam, it is sealed and then coated with peat, which of course has cappilary attraction...

I mentioned I would add leaf litter - I'm not an idiot  and of course there will be lots of plants which do NOT need soil... so I really don't understand these answers 

I hope we just misunderstood each other...

wait a moment, I will take a photo for clarification 

...done
There isn't much water in the water area but I think you can imagine it better now


----------



## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

The ditch (or moat) doesn't have to be narrow, you could do it as wide as you want. If it eats too much of the space you could just fill it with leca or filter foam with just a corner "open" for siphoning out water.

But I'm just throwing it out there, if you don't like it you don't like it

I'm not knowledge enough to debate whether styrofoam is truly a health risk or not, from what I understand it does leak potentially harmful chemicals but it's not yet determined if it's enough to cause problems.
I might be wrong though, as I don't use it I haven't really felt the need to read up on it.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Yeah I know, and I really appreciate your advice 
There are several other reasons why I think it could be a bad idea to use a double bottom in the exo terras...
I just didn't write this, because I foremost wanted to know if ABG mix itself has good drainage capacities.

If you bought premade vivaria with double bottoms, you might have recognized in most cases there is an open space between the double and the "real" bottom seen from the rear side... I was told this is because the glass can burst if the air inside expands due to i.e. heat from the lighting of other vivaria standing below.

I used leca a few times to fill up the ditch, but I have many frogs which transport tads and since the leca sometimes doesn't really sink and raises up, I often had serious problems to catch tads between leca and a little amount of clear water beneath the swimming leca.

Did you successfully add double bottoms to existing tanks?


----------



## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

I haven't done it myself, but I've seen other people do it.
I actually had planned to do it to two of my tanks tonight, but now that you said that they might explode I'm not sure I want to anymore


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

*lol* My intention has not been to terrorize you.
I don't know this for sure, but if for example you look really carefully at this picture from a German onlineshop selling this kind of vivaria, you will notice there isn't a continous bottommost sheet of glass from rear to front.

When I asked why this is usually assembled this way (I thought it would be to have the ability to use a heating mat) I got told, it would be neccassary for the reason which I mentioned above.

I myself am not sure if this can be true - for example I never heard about exploding Christmas tree balls


----------



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Why don't you just make false bottoms? The materials are cheap and they are not so hard to put together. You should be able to find everything there in Germany. You can also reuse the parts. 

If you put ABG right into the bottom of the tank with no drainage layer it will just rot. You will have problems even if you water only infrequently. With the substrate resting right against the glass it will be starved of oxygen. Aside from smelling very bad this will be a poor environment for your frogs and plants won't grow in it either. 

Furthermore, if you use a few liters and fill up the bottom of the viv with 5cm or so of ABG mix then the soil surface will be a couple inches below that thick Exo Terra bottom door frame. This will be a poor configuration for viewing your frogs. It will be better to raise the soil layer and you can fill that extra space more economically with with the false bottom as compared to dumping lots of ABG mix into the enclosure.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

hydrophyte said:


> Why don't you just make false bottoms? The materials are cheap and they are not so hard to put together. You should be able to find everything there in Germany. You can also reuse the parts.


Mainly because I don't really understand what "egg crate" is. I didn't find it in my home depot. Is the material, what you call egg crate the stuff used to diffuse tube lights?


hydrophyte said:


> If you put ABG right into the bottom of the tank with no drainage layer it will just rot. You will have problems even if you water only infrequently. With the substrate resting right against the glass it will be starved of oxygen. Aside from smelling very bad this will be a poor environment for your frogs and plants won't grow in it either.


Yep, that's what I've been afraid off. Therefor I started this thread.



hydrophyte said:


> Furthermore, if you use a few liters and fill up the bottom of the viv with 5cm or so of ABG mix then the soil surface will be a couple inches below that thick Exo Terra bottom door frame. This will be a poor configuration for viewing your frogs. It will be better to raise the soil layer and you can fill that extra space more economically with with the false bottom as compared to dumping lots of ABG mix into the enclosure.


Okay, but if I raise the soil layer (versus the ditch version) I will lose much height. I will setup most of the 10 new tanks for thumbnails, so I am not sure if it will be okay to lose about 1/4 of the vertical space versus let's say 2 inch for the styrofoam version.
On the other hand I don't want my ventrimaculata and variabilis (just variabilis if you are picky) to lay into the water features.
So this might be an option.

Nonetheless I still don't understand the major advantages of a false bottom setup. Don't I have to siphon the water somehow after several weeks? If ABG mix will get soggy after a while this in fact must be due to more water added than evaporated... so the water level will raise in the false bottom too, right? 

And how do I keep the sides and backwalls moist?
In my usual setup with the peat coating on the bottom and on the sides and back, there is always enough capillary attraction to keep at least 1/2 of the sides and back moist.

All this may sound trivial to you... but I've never done a false bottom setup before and I am really interested in the advantages, if there exist any.


----------



## highvoltagerob (Apr 14, 2012)

You are correct, 'egg crate' is light diffuser used on fluorescent tube lighting.


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Yes, egg crate is that light diffuser material. 

Personally, I think your "option A" is the better of the two ways to go. If you really want ground plants, you can always lay down a layer of sphagnum (or ABG, I guess) on top of the styro mix in a pile or something where you want to plant your ground plants. 

I don't do the egg crate false bottoms. I don't really like them, and I get better microfauna production with other methods. What I do is lay down a layer of inert material (I've used pea gravel- heavy, lava rock- light and allows fro greater water storage, LECA- similar to lava but smaller particle size, and Turface/Aquasoil- my favorite due to it being very similar to a soil particle but it's inert so no rot). On top of this, I'll just lay down a layer of leaf litter, and the substrate is done. My plants grow much better in this environment than any other substrate as well, and when the water level is getting high, I just siphon it out as if it's any other false bottom method.


----------



## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

Haha, no it was a good thing you told me 
It makes sense now that I'm thinking about it. I'll just have to drill a hole in the back.

You can get "egg crate" here:

http://www.dutch-rana.nl/v2/index.p...id=19&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=79&lang=en

Meerwasseraquaristik Onlineshop mit riesen Auswahl rund um das Thema Meerwasseraquaristik und Meerwasseraquarium. | Lichtrasterplatten / Lochplatten | Lichtraster / Lichtrasterplatten weiß


----------



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Cutterfly said:


> Nonetheless I still don't understand the major advantages of a false bottom setup. Don't I have to siphon the water somehow after several weeks? If ABG mix will get soggy after a while this in fact must be due to more water added than evaporated... so the water level will raise in the false bottom too, right?


The major advantages of a false bottom or drainage layer are explained above. They will maintain good drainage and favorable conditions in your substrate.

The way to siphon the water out is to include a vertical pipe section that goes right through the false bottom and extends above the soil substrate. This is the kind of standpipe that I use with my false bottom setups... 










I just put a water-filled thin vinyl air hose down into the pipe to start the siphon. I added the plastic disc just to steady the pipe against the false bottom. You can also use a section of plain pipe instead.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

@hydrophyte
thx for sharing the pipe thing. This seems to be a very easy way to siphon the water, I will keep this in mind!

@Sammie
Thank you for the links 



Spaff said:


> Personally, I think your "option A" is the better of the two ways to go.
> [...]
> I don't do the egg crate false bottoms. I don't really like them, and I get better microfauna production with other methods.


Thx... at least one vote against the false bottom and/or option b 

I didn't expect this to turnout into a debate on principles (I seem to magically attract this type of discussion  )

But for those who are interested:
1. I didn't use any substrate but the described thin layer of peat coating and leaf litter in almost every larger tank for several years.
2. I'm not sure what YOU personally mean by "microfauna". I'm not sure if microfauna is meant to be really... well... micro.
As long as all kinds of creeping insects count, here you have a picture which I took several month ago in one of my tanks. It shows the ground as is, I did NOT feed any isopods, etc. on this day. I did feed isopods and springtails several YEARS ago for the last time!
So I can say for sure, microfauna will be well if there is always just leaf litter slowly transforming into detrius on peat coating.


----------



## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Actually, 
Im quite surprised. This is the opposite of what I expected. I expected a plantless hardscape with some leaf litter on top. 
Now to clarify what I meant earlier. I didnt mean the frogs hide in the substrate. Although I have seen this. I meant that without plants growing the frogs wouldnt have much hiding spots aside from the leaf litter. 
As far as hydration, the substrate in my opinion helps the frogs maintain a healthy amount of moisture. 
If your idea works then go with it. But it seems like days of work vs an hour of throwing a drainage layer of hydroton (Or substitute),ABG, Long Fiber Sphagnum and leaf litter in a tank and its ready for planting!


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Cutterfly said:


> I used leca a few times to fill up the ditch, but I have many frogs which transport tads and since the leca sometimes doesn't really sink and raises up, I often had serious problems to catch tads between leca and a little amount of clear water beneath the swimming leca.


Just replace the LECA with a heavier gravel where the water feature is. 



Cutterfly said:


> Okay, but if I raise the soil layer (versus the ditch version) I will lose much height. I will setup most of the 10 new tanks for thumbnails, so I am not sure if it will be okay to lose about 1/4 of the vertical space versus let's say 2 inch for the styrofoam version.


You can keep the drainage layer pretty thin, 4 - 6 cm would be fine. 




Cutterfly said:


> On the other hand I don't want my ventrimaculata and variabilis (just variabilis if you are picky) to lay into the water features.
> So this might be an option.


You don't have to give them access, you can drill holes in the back or bottom to drain water. 



Cutterfly said:


> Nonetheless I still don't understand the major advantages of a false bottom setup. Don't I have to siphon the water somehow after several weeks? If ABG mix will get soggy after a while this in fact must be due to more water added than evaporated... so the water level will raise in the false bottom too, right?


My first answer will be direct to false bottoms. 

The big advantage of false bottoms is that unlike a normal drainage layer they can hold a lot more water, and they weigh far less. If you have to move a tank full of LECA you know its not as light as they make it sound especially when water logged. Also at least in the USA the egg crate louvre we use is very cheap and it saves us money as opposed to filling that space with more expensive drainage materials. If you need to move the tank or anything you can drain the water out of the false bottom and it will almost all come out. 

If you meant drainage layers in general. 

The major advantage of a drainage layers is that it is a safety buffer on multiple levels. 

First it gives you a 100% humidity buffer. By having a layer of water under the substrate the substrate pretty much always remains moist but not water logged. This allows the frogs the opportunity to move down to the substrate if things are too dry above. It also creates an almost perfect moisture level for a lot of plants. 

In addition it allows the water somewhere to go so it can get out of the substrate and not cause an anaerobic bog to form which stinks and rots. In addition it gives you some space to hold water. So if you over water you have more time between draining the substrate, and if you under water you have more time in between when you need to top off the water to refill it. 

If you do a good job balancing the water you can go for a year without ever needing to add or remove water from the drainage layer. 

If you put substrate directly on the glass then you will need to very carefully mist and water to make sure it both stays plenty moist for the frogs and plants and never forms puddles of water that will lead to rotting. 

So the main advantage of a drainage layer is it makes it far easier for you to take care of your frogs and plants even if it is possible to be successful without one. Sure lots of people throw sphagnum in a sterilite bin and grow up frogs on that without no drainage layer. But they need to keep an eye on humidity and those are usually sealed. 




Cutterfly said:


> And how do I keep the sides and backwalls moist?
> In my usual setup with the peat coating on the bottom and on the sides and back, there is always enough capillary attraction to keep at least 1/2 of the sides and back moist.
> 
> All this may sound trivial to you... but I've never done a false bottom setup before and I am really interested in the advantages, if there exist any.


If the substrate remains moist some of the side walls will get wet but the side wall moisture will mostly have to do with what you build the walls with and how will it wicks water up which is independent of the function of a false bottom / drainage layer.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Wow, I didn't assume, there would be so much additional response. That's the magic of different time zones 

I see, there seem to exist a few more advantages, which I didn't know, since I never had a false bottom setup. Especially the point, that the constant presence of a larger amount of water will keep the substrate on top of the egg crate moist, counts for me.
I think this is very natural for frogs, which in nature go deeper into the leaf litter where it will still be moist enough while something around, a tree stump or whatever is exposed to sunlight.
I understand, that my frogs which in some cases would have to use the water feature or mossy parts of the side- and backwalls to cover, could behave in a more natural manner if they could just stay in the leaf litter.

So I think I will try a false bottom setup.

Does the weed block rot after some month? Do I have to use some special version?
How do you keep it in place?
If you use backwalls and sidewalls: Do you place the false bottom below the walls? Much of my tanks are made like this, so I don't know if it would be possible to add a false bottom setup.

Should a very large-pored filter mat covered with weed block create a similar effect? I then would still be able to easily remove the water if I have to move the tanks because it does not stay in the substrate as it would do if I used leca.


----------



## Slengteng (Sep 16, 2014)

Hey cutterfly! Nice background! I would not use the weed blocker, i did it at my actual build and the water will not go through quite well so i had to make additional holes in it, i would take this window mesh to block insects! I am from austria and i couldnt find egg crate anywhere so i used some floor segments which you just clip together! You can check my thread! Mfg Manuel


----------



## jimmy rustles (Mar 10, 2013)

i think the false bottom will also be doable with some plastic profiles (L-profiles are prolly the most common ones glued together and some garden fleece on top. Im no expert tho, just planning my first frog vivarium and that was my solution to replacing the eggcrate.


----------



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Although it is more costly, you can also use this open-cell foam as a lightweight drainage layer/false bottom...

Poret® Foam Shop - SWISSTROPICALS

You should position a standpipe through it for water siphoning and also use a screen on top so your soil substrate won't shake down through it. They make that foam in Germany and it is popular for fishkeeping. You should be able to find it.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

For the finished tanks (there are three of these... you always have to remember I am just talking about my 10 new exo terra - all my other existing ones work quite fine) I've redone the ground by using ~2.5 inch leca, then ~ 1 inch pine bark, topped by leaf litter.
I know this isn't that easy to handle when I will have to move the tanks (and I will have to, as I once again will relocate in about 10 month) but hey, it's just 3 12x12x18.

For the other tanks I may use egg crate.
What do you mean, if you're telling me this stuff to be cheap in the US?
What does "cheap" to you mean?
I will have to pay 30 USD up to 50 USD per m²
I don't find this to be cheap 

Only reason for me to not simply make the whole thing by using forex (pvc composite) sheets with a hundret drilled holes and put *only* relatively coarse pine bark and leaf litter on top is I then would never be able to use finer material like ABG mix...

Edit: @hydrophyte, that's exactly what I meant. I use this stuff in all my temporary setups for my offspring and it is even cheaper than egg crate over here


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

*I won't use additional exo terras*

Hey everybody,
I think me and exo terra, we won't get friends 
I deleted my order of the remaining 7 exo terra vivs...
I will do everything as before: on my own and using pvc composite boards/sheets (I never know the right word in English for this stuff)

The leca doesn't work well enough for me: way to much wicking!

But the filter mats will work - I know this from experience.

So I've hacked together a little prototype of what I will do with my next tanks. Here is a little teaser, I think it is self-explaining. There of course will be added some kind of substrate on top (I think I will use ABG mix topped with leaf litter)

I would have tested the whole thing with a similar substrate but I am out of pvc glue and silicone will not work, so I have to wait until I can test this.

I nonetheless know for sure these filter mats won't have any wicking so I am pretty sure it will work as expected.


----------

