# 3 legged froglet



## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

Hi all,
Some of my first tank-raised Azureventris froglets are emerging from the water, and I noticed one of them did not have a visible right leg, upon further investigation, it appeared that it protruded from the middle, near it's stomach, and went over to the left side.

SLS related?

there is at least two other froglets hopping around that have all 4 legs functioning as normal.. I wonder how long to wait for this guy before letting him go. since his back legs work well, he can hop around.. possibly well enough for food.. but I gotta keep an eye on the adults so they dont gobble everything up..


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## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

Correction, after looking at some of the pictures (sorry for the quality, but getting closeup shots of small things is fairly difficult).. the 'missing'/mutated leg is starting in the correct spot, but it comes out where the other fron leg comes out.. there is a small opening where it should have gone, but it didn't work it's way there...

Is it safe with tweezers to either.. pull the leg through the correct opening, or, worse, cut the skin that is holding it across it's chest?

Thanks..


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## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

I just pulled out one more with this condition (this guy had made it's way when it was a tadpole under the false bottom and I had to spoon him out.. this has happened once before so this time it only took me 2 mins)

help pull the leg through the correct opening or cut the skin that it is caught under??

Thanks,
Chris

EDIT:
One other option.. wait.. wait for the frog to break the skin itself.. I don't see them capable of moving it through the correct hole


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## The Mom (Jun 1, 2013)

So what did you end up doing? No one helped. That is disappointing. Not that I can. I have no idea if you can, or even should correct this. I would split the pair up that is parenting them since it happened to more then one.

I am wondering how everyone gets the frogs to stay on their back though. I tried it a couple of times and mine all not only flip over, but completely flip out.


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## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

since there was not a response for more than two days, I made the decision to operate..

the first time was not very good because I was essentially using a box cutter.. I would, before, string a small plastic thread from the screen I use for the lights, between, so as to not cut the actual leg.. this was fairly time consuming and nerve racking..

the next day, 
the second one I went to CVS and got some revlon branded cuticle scissors that worked much better/faster, took like 4 snips, and on each the lil' guy would wiggle a bit.. I sort of felt bad for them.. but I knew it was for their own good

both of the frogs continued to have their 'bad' leg in the position they had it at, including the first one for over 24 hrs.. after the second one, of several hours after and some rinsing, I put them both back in the big tank with the adults and the few other froglets, as it has a good source of food..

That was a few days ago, and today I saw 4 froglets hopping around, while some still emerging, all seem to be using their arms/legs appropriately.. seems like a success, if not, I probably would not find one if it had died in the tank because of how small it is...

some pics to follow..

I think I would not be able to get adults on their back, but froglets are easy enough.. more or less you try a whole bunch until their back dried off, and stick to your finger in that position, they dont try to move too much once in that position, then after handling make sure to rinse them in water again to rehydrate

Post Surgery:
Frog 1








Frog 2









Adult with some froglet, not sure which one..


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

I hate to tell you but it looks pretty clear to me that the frog in the last few pictures has SLS. your going to need to euthanize it.

in fact the one in the first few pictures almost certainly has SLS as well.

i would try changing up the tads' diet in the future.

James


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm sorry I didn't see this thread ealier. I commend you on taking the initiative without input from the board. It was very interesting. Sadly, I agree with James that these froglets have SLS.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Any reason to think this was caused by tadpole nutrition, rather than a possible Vitamin A deficiency in a parent.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

good point. it could be parent or tadpole nutritional deficiencies. 

personally i think it might help to see pictures of all of the froglets. if the op didn't notice that these have severe SLS, i fear there may be others.



James


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## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

hey guys, thanks for the replies..

I can see ~4 froglets hopping around the tank, none of them appear to have the leg issue (anymore?) .. so either my slight surgery worked, or the ones I did it on are hiding or already dead..
None of the froglets look any different from each other, they are all pretty much bouncing around.. I think it was simply that the two did not punch their arm through, and it works it's way to the other arm that did punch though.. not sure how common this is, but it does not appear frail like the SLS pics I have seen (these are actually my first froglets that I got from parents..)

these were tank raised.. I did not feed them in the water at all, but tons of bugs in there that fell in, so I don't think nutrition would really be an issue.. plenty of tannins in the water as well..

I JUST GOT ANOTHER CLUTCH!
I have noticed near no-calling from the tank since this previous clutch, which was odd because there was this one male who could seriously go for 10 minutes nonstop.. not a second of pausing, incredible.. maybe he just mellowed out.. Also, who knows why the female(s?) waited a while.. I guess I've gotten only 3 clutches from since xmas (I got 6 tadpoles just 9 months prior, so they are relatively young) but only this last one survived well enough..

sorry for the bad pic, I didn't want to scare the parent away, so I had to zoom..


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Reef_Haven said:


> Any reason to think this was caused by tadpole nutrition, rather than a possible Vitamin A deficiency in a parent.


To be on the safe side .. I would think about this. What vitamins are you dusting for the parents?


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## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

I use Herptavite, only on flies.. I also feed them undusted CFB larvae and bean beetles, but I mostly feed them flightless malanogaster, sometimes wingless, and sometimes hydei. I dust fairly often, near every feeding of the flies.. 

I found a pic of what the adults looked like they were emerging from the water (I got them as tadpoles), one appears to still have a tail, so they must've been pretty young.. this is for reference, but difficult to show sizes.. They look the same to me..


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

They also need a calcium supplement. I don't think Herptavite has calcium. Look for Rep-Cal with D3 and add it to the supplement rotation. My preferred supplement is Repashy Calcium Plus; it has all the vitamins and calcium they need in one supplement.


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## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

There is Calcium in Herptavite(by Rep-Cal).. labels says something like 22,000mg (22g) per Kilogram. I knew of this and thus why I have only been using that.. but the jar is a bit old, so I might get a new one, different brand, although no complaints for using this, just nothing to really compare to.

Started off with 4 tadpoles and now have over 50 frogs.. getting clutches often enough.. so no real reason to switch it up beyond exploring..

Thanks,
Chris


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

I have seen it stated Herptivite does not contain a usable form of Vitamin A, but rather beta carotenes. Dart frogs apparently have very limited ability to convert beta carotene into usable Vitamin A. Many people recommend Repashy Calcium plus as an every day supplement and Repashy Vitamin A plus once or twice a month for breeding frogs or possibly deficient frogs.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

In addition to what Reef_Haven said, if their vitamin jar is old, it might not be doing them much good. Open supplements should be replaced after 6 months.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Noxz said:


> Started off with 4 tadpoles and now have over 50 frogs.. getting clutches often enough.. so no real reason to switch it up beyond exploring..
> Thanks,
> Chris


Yet you have some morphing out with issues It is not just the calcium they need, it is Vitamin D3 so that the calcium can be absorbed. I know this as person who has to take D3, my doctor says my body is not making it regardless of what I eat or how much I am out in the sun. As far as I know it is the same for frogs and the lack can cause bone issues.


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## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

Thanks for all the input..
I'll be sure to get some fresh vitamins soon..

I think they snuck one by me.. beyond the eggs that showed up last night.. when I came home from work I caught a guy carrying some tads









Looks like I have two clutches.. I think that I may have two females aswell.. the male:female ratio for these guys is something ridiculous, like 25:1.. so to end up with even 1 from 5 original tads is great, and two is awesome... 

The lil froglets seem to be doing well, eating some flightless melanos already (there's some springtails in the tank, but not as many as I want).. I'll be sure to keep an eye on them, and make sure they get plenty of nutrition.. also once the parent drops off the tads in the water I'll be sure to add some extra tad food for them..

I was not expecting to see piggy backing from a hidden clutch today, but always pleasant to see.. these guys surprise me often


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## Noxz (Jan 12, 2012)

Was able to nab one more shot.. I'll try and leave him be..


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