# Strongyloides in frogs



## Guest (Jun 14, 2004)

I am new to the list. I work as and RVT for a an exotic vet. I do numerous fecal exams daily on reptiles and birds, but not a lot of frogs. I just recently aquired some captive bred dart frogs, and have found larval worms in their stool that I strongly suspect are strongyloides. I have also found these parasites in a milk frog. 
Has anyone treated frogs with this parasite and had success? I am getting ready to put these animals in a planted vivarium and do not want to contaminate the tank and then have to replant it later. One of the other techs at our practice has been trying to clear her frogs on these worms with no success. Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Send a stool sample to Dr. Frye, and he'll analyze it and tell you for sure, and recommend a treatment. He charges $15, which is very reasonable. It's usually pretty much impossible to know for sure what you're looking at unless you have a microscope and a good idea what exactly it is you're looking for. I would suggest having a vet like Dr. Frye look at it. The details are in this thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=244


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

*vaccination*

For my African clawed frogs, I got them vaccinated for strongloid lungworms with Ivermectin. We suspected that they got parasites, but we weren't sure, so we had them injected. That was 4 years ago. Soaking frogs has also been said to work. However, this is different for dart frogs, so I guess you could drip it onto their back? Thats all I can tell you sorry.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2004)

I am actually very experienced at looking at fecal samples. I am registered vet tech (RVT). I am pretty confindent that the parasite I am seeing is strongyloides. I know they are hard to treat. One of our techs has been treating for these parasites in some of her frogs with no success. She has used Fenbendazole (panacur) orally for 10 days and also with Ivermectin topically. I was wondering if other people have had problems with these parasites in their frogs and how they treated them.


----------



## bricespice (Jan 4, 2010)

I also had my pair of wildcaught dendrobates that i had tested today. positive for strongyloides, does anyone have some more recent information about treatment? I dont trust the treatment suggestion of the vet I went to due to lack of experience with dart frogs (or should i saw NO EXPERIENCE!).

I sent an email to Dr. Frye, but I am sure he is busy so it may take a few days till he is able to reply.


----------



## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

They can be treated with panacure.
Dr. Frye will give you the details on treatment etc.


----------



## bricespice (Jan 4, 2010)

SO after much debate with a local vet, I FINALLY got them to write a prescription for panacur powder form. He refused to prescribe Ivermectin 

The vet kept saying the only way it would work is with dosing oral liquid with a cath tip syringe. 

He didn't understand that these are delicate frogs and I don't need to PRY their mouths open in order to dose them. He kept arguring with me an "quizing" me on what I know about panacur and dart frogs. He "thought" he was a wealth of information and the truth is he has never seen or let alone handled a dart frog in his life. He was telling me what he has seen on the discovery channel and in picture books....seriously?!
He also asked if my frogs were WC or CB. When I said all my frogs but 1 were CB, he started to lecture me on how "dendrotoxin can kill u instantly and it takes 6 months to clear the frogs system and if u handle them within 6 months u will DIE!"

hahaha. Are there any vets that want to relocate to Tulsa, OK? Not much here, but I promise you can get some business!


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

bricespice said:


> SO after much debate with a local vet, I FINALLY got them to write a prescription for panacur powder form. He refused to prescribe Ivermectin
> 
> The vet kept saying the only way it would work is with dosing oral liquid with a cath tip syringe.
> 
> ...


You should have told him, as you were shaking his hand, that they are all wild caught and that you handle them frequently.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bricespice said:


> SO after much debate with a local vet, I FINALLY got them to write a prescription for panacur powder form. He refused to prescribe Ivermectin
> 
> The vet kept saying the only way it would work is with dosing oral liquid with a cath tip syringe.
> 
> ...


What kind of dart frogs are you treating? I treated dendrobatids for more than 18 years by catching up any of the larger species and dosing them orally.. It isn't hard and they are not that fragile. I have to say that in 18 years I never treated a dendrobatid by dusting thier food items with panacure. They were either dosed orally during a catch-up and restraint or if too small dosed with ivermectin or rarely with drocit or levamisol depending in the parasite in question. 

The reason he gave you a hard time about dusting food items with panacure is because it is no longer considered a good method for treating the frogs. There are potential significant side effects if the frogs are overdosed and underdosing doesn't get rid of the parasite resulting in more treatments which increases the risk of overdosing.... 

I am sure that he had concerns about accidental overdosing of ivermectin as well... it doesn't take a lot of overdose to kill an animal with ivermectin and even sublethal doses can have serious effects like neurological disruptions... 

Ed


----------



## bricespice (Jan 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> What kind of dart frogs are you treating? I treated dendrobatids for more than 18 years by catching up any of the larger species and dosing them orally.. It isn't hard and they are not that fragile. I have to say that in 18 years I never treated a dendrobatid by dusting thier food items with panacure. They were either dosed orally during a catch-up and restraint or if too small dosed with ivermectin or rarely with drocit or levamisol depending in the parasite in question.
> 
> The reason he gave you a hard time about dusting food items with panacure is because it is no longer considered a good method for treating the frogs. There are potential significant side effects if the frogs are overdosed and underdosing doesn't get rid of the parasite resulting in more treatments which increases the risk of overdosing....
> 
> ...


I am treating an adult pair of ole marie's and an adult pair of wild caught nikitas. 
Per Dr. Frye's recommend is why I strongly requested the powder form. I am dosing 2 flies 1x per week for 3 weeks. Using a mcg scale I weight 2 flies, zeroed out the scale, dusted the flies, and re-weighed which gave me an accurate dose which was in the "acceptable" dosing regimen. 
Here is Dr. Frye's communication:

"I do not usually recommend orally dosing such delicate frogs, but, if your doctor seems confident, I would let them try. Just ask to watch. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable having someone perform this procedure on a delicate frog. I usually recommend Panacur powder or Ivvermectin topical drops."


----------



## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

bricespice said:


> I am treating an adult pair of ole marie's and an adult pair of wild caught nikitas.
> Per Dr. Frye's recommend is why I strongly requested the powder form. I am dosing 2 flies 1x per week for 3 weeks. Using a mcg scale I weight 2 flies, zeroed out the scale, dusted the flies, and re-weighed which gave me an accurate dose which was in the "acceptable" dosing regimen.
> Here is Dr. Frye's communication:
> 
> "I do not usually recommend orally dosing such delicate frogs, but, if your doctor seems confident, I would let them try. Just ask to watch. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable having someone perform this procedure on a delicate frog. I usually recommend Panacur powder or Ivvermectin topical drops."


His recomendation is based on severely outdated information. The coauthor of the book he learned his methods from now strongly recommends that dusted panacur not be used except as a last resort.


----------



## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

Oh, I am now so confussed


----------



## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ben Wehr said:


> Oh, I am now so confussed


Its actually very simple. Panacur was once considered a very safe drug with very wide parameters of what can be safely tolerated and minimal to no side effects. In the last ten years it has been shown with numerous species of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians that Panacur has a much narrower safety range than previously thought and carries more and more severe potential side effects if overdosed and the potential to develop drug resistant strains of parasites if underdosed. The scatter shot nature of dosing with dusted Panacur makes it virtually impossible to guaranee an accurate dose, which is why most Zoos, Institutions as well as the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Vets(ARAV) no longer recommend it as the drug of choice, except in extreme emergencies. Does that help?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Its actually very simple. Panacur was once considered a very safe drug with very wide parameters of what can be safely tolerated and minimal to no side effects. In the last ten years it has been shown with numerous species of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians that Panacur has a much narrower safety range than previously thought and carries more and more severe potential side effects if overdosed and the potential to develop drug resistant strains of parasites if underdosed. The scatter shot nature of dosing with dusted Panacur makes it virtually impossible to guaranee an accurate dose, which is why most Zoos, Institutions as well as the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Vets(ARAV) no longer recommend it as the drug of choice, except in extreme emergencies. Does that help?


4

Hi Roman,

I haven't seen docmented cases of it casing issues with amphibians yet.. I know it is highly likely given the wide range of documented issues in other taxa... (and this could be due to lack of documented histopathology results). Have you seen any published reports? 

Panacure may still be a drug of choice.. the difference is that dusting is no longer considered the choice optimal dosing method by many vets. 

Just trying to keep it clear.. 

Ed


----------



## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> 4
> 
> Hi Roman,
> 
> ...


Good point I have to dig into it. I know the Berlin Zoo had issues with amphibians(possibly Atelopus) that they attributed to panacur overdoses(personal communication) but I can't remember the exact species. Let me send out some e-mails and see what I get back info wise.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Good point I have to dig into it. I know the Berlin Zoo had issues with amphibians(possibly Atelopus) that they attributed to panacur overdoses(personal communication) but I can't remember the exact species. Let me send out some e-mails and see what I get back info wise.


If you hear anything let me know... 
not to be too much of a pain.. was it published or just a presupposition? 

Ed


----------



## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> If you hear anything let me know...
> not to be too much of a pain.. was it published or just a presupposition?
> 
> Ed


This was back in 2008, I don't believe anything was ever published because they didn't feel it was a large enough sample size to draw final conclusion from, but all the animals in question showed issue with liver damage and bone marrow toxicity under a highpowered microscope which if I remember correctly are leading adverse reactions to Panacur.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Thanks.. 

The vet journals would have acccepted it.. the original attempt to use a nebulizer to treat a severe respitory infection in a snake was based on a single case... 

Ed


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Just an innocent question here. Are these new findings on possible side effects of Panacur from a typical, once a week treatment for 5 weeks? I guess what I'm asking is how common is it to treat an infected frog once a week for 5 weeks straight with Panacur dusted FF's that cause death and/or said side effects and develop drug resistant strains of parasites in PDF's?

I'm also curious how many hobbyists quarantine/treat their infected with Panacur and are seeing such issues? How does the average hobbyist treat their infected frogs or do most not treat them at all. I'm just curious to see what everyone does.


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

How were the Atelopus treated? Panacur dusted FF's? How many times per day? Per week? How many weeks?



mantisdragon91 said:


> This was back in 2008, I don't believe anything was ever published because they didn't feel it was a large enough sample size to draw final conclusion from, but all the animals in question showed issue with liver damage and bone marrow toxicity under a highpowered microscope which if I remember correctly are leading adverse reactions to Panacur.


----------



## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dmartin72 said:


> How were the Atelopus treated? Panacur dusted FF's? How many times per day? Per week? How many weeks?


I believe they utilize panacur dusted termites but am still waiting for more detail.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dmartin72 said:


> Just an innocent question here. Are these new findings on possible side effects of Panacur from a typical, once a week treatment for 5 weeks? I guess what I'm asking is how common is it to treat an infected frog once a week for 5 weeks straight with Panacur dusted FF's that cause death and/or said side effects and develop drug resistant strains of parasites in PDF's?
> 
> I'm also curious how many hobbyists quarantine/treat their infected with Panacur and are seeing such issues? How does the average hobbyist treat their infected frogs or do most not treat them at all. I'm just curious to see what everyone does.


Hi Dave,

To be able to link the panacure to problems in the frogs would have required hobbyists to have done routinely necropsies on the frogs with histopathology as part of the necropsy... If somone is treating frogs for parasites and they die during the course of treatment how often is that written off as death due to the parasites...or stress etc... 

Also bone marrow and liver damage can result in issues days to at least weeks later depending on the severity of the damage and the end effect....

Ed


----------



## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dmartin72 said:


> Just an innocent question here. Are these new findings on possible side effects of Panacur from a typical, once a week treatment for 5 weeks? I guess what I'm asking is how common is it to treat an infected frog once a week for 5 weeks straight with Panacur dusted FF's that cause death and/or said side effects and develop drug resistant strains of parasites in PDF's?
> 
> I'm also curious how many hobbyists quarantine/treat their infected with Panacur and are seeing such issues? How does the average hobbyist treat their infected frogs or do most not treat them at all. I'm just curious to see what everyone does.


Hard to say. Unless one does detailed autopsies with high powered microscopes every time a dart dies it is hard to pin down the actual cause of death. Keep in mind that many of the cases of Panacur side effects in other species took weeks and in many case months to manifest themselves. Put it simply we don't know many times what the true killer of our frogs maybe because we don't know what to look for.

Many knowledgable vets now take the approach that unless an animal is listless, visibly declining or showing excessive white or red blood cell counts in their fecals the best protocol maybe to not treat at all. Of course this goes againt the financial interest of other vets which is why this information is often surpressed or ridiculed. Comlicating the issue further is that we still don't know what type of beneficial fauna lives in our darts guts that we may be killing through our tendency to medicate first and ask questions later(Think about all the allergies we have in this country many of which can be traced back to the fact that we have weakened our bodies natural immune systems through over reliance on meds)


----------

