# Mixing?



## Jasoneri (Jul 18, 2013)

I know people frown on it and I don't really want to do it but I have an opportunity to get a pair of Oophaga pumilio. I was wanting to set up my 92gal corner tank for a group of some other type. I don't really want a big viv and only have two little frogs in it. 
Any help would be great.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

What is your experience with dart frogs and vivariums?


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## Jasoneri (Jul 18, 2013)

Just starting to get back into frogs. It's been a few years.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

My advice to you is to wait on the Pumillio. They are becoming more available by the day and there will be some available when you're ready for them. In the mean time get a nice group of leucs or auatus or vittatus or anthonyi that will do well as a small group in that 92 gal tank. Get some experience with dart frog care and husbandry before you attempt mixing species, especially in a tank that seems large, but really isn't.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Let me add Ameeregas to the list Jon suggested.


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## Jasoneri (Jul 18, 2013)

I was hoping to mix and not set up another tank but they come with a tank so I might just get them and set the 92 for another group. They are going to be part of a trade, I am getting rid of an aquarium set up.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Has it been done? Yes. Have I done it? Yes. But it takes years of planning. You don't just add a couple more frogs to an existing setup. Hell, I wouldn't even consider adding more auratus to an existing group. (Health reasons as well as social)
If you have to ask about mixing, it isn't about it being frowned on, who cares. It is about you are not prepared to avoid failure. If you were prepared, the question wouldn't be asked. If carefully planned, I believe thumbnails can co exist with terrestrial frogs, but tank size doesn't matter. It has to be designed and set up to meet the needs of all the frogs are give them their own space free of the other frogs.

I don't frown on it if done correctly by someone who can tell if the frogs are stressed, bullied, etc. Are they all eating? Etc.
But adding frogs in with others, no. Adding frogs not from same biotope, no.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Jasoneri said:


> I was hoping to mix and not set up another tank but they come with a tank so I might just get them and set the 92 for another group. They are going to be part of a trade, I am getting rid of an aquarium set up.


How much experience with dart frogs do you have? How long have you been keeping them? How many species have you worked with?
It seems as if you know that mixing is frowned upon, especially with little or no experience, yet you want to ask and have people say you're the exception to the rule. You're looking for affirmation, not an honest answer.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I would have to agree with Jon. You are not going to get anyone to say it is ok. Not how you want to go about it. You will lose frogs if you can't read the signals.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Jasoneri said:


> I know people frown on it and I don't really want to do it but I have an opportunity to get a pair of Oophaga pumilio.
> 
> 
> > Jasoneri said:
> ...


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Tl/dr........


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## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

Less is often more, you will probably find you enjoy a single species tank just as much as a multispicies tank. Why not go the easy route and avoid the problems involved with keeping multiple species in one enclosure.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Doug????
Too long didn't read. Then why bother letting us know? No offense, but I have never understood the purpose of tl/dr... Does it make you feel cool or something?


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

What's wrong with two frogs in a big tank? I see it as a great opportunity to make a large and varied home for them. Lots of room for structure and things for them to climb. Pumilio will utilize the whole space.


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## Frogman8 (Sep 28, 2010)

90 gallon , I'd split it into 3 sections and get 3 diff morphs . Just my opinion 😬


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

sounds like microfauna haven


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> Doug????
> Too long didn't read. Then why bother letting us know? No offense, but I have never understood the purpose of tl/dr... Does it make you feel cool or something?


Hmm I've always understood TL/DR to mean:

*TR*anslation *DR*ama.

The OP seems to understand mixing is frowned on and looks to be seeking affirmation. Translation, creating drama.

Apparently it has come to mean Too Long, Didn't Read. Hence the confusion.

But yes, I troll Dendroboard daily in an an attempt to affirm my coolness amongst this community of frog nerds. #sarcasm how am I doing. 

Why so serious?


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## Jasoneri (Jul 18, 2013)

I have kept a small group of auratus for a couple of years, years ago. I have worked at pet stores or been associated with them for most of my life. That doesn't make me an expert but I do know what to look for in animals if they are unhappy. I wasn't looking for an "it's ok to do it" I was looking for examples. Like "yes, I have kept this and this together. But you should do this" If everyone said it was a bad idea then there is my answer. There are a lot of different frogs. I didn't know if someone had experience and success with two different species. That's it!!
I didn't know this was going to be so much drama.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Hmm I've always understood TL/DR to mean:
> 
> *TR*anslation *DR*ama.
> 
> ...


Not serious. Figured you were going with the not worth my time another troll thread


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Jasoneri said:


> I didn't know this was going to be so much drama.


I urge you to do some research here on Dendroboard. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum and it even got stickied. You will have enough reading for a couple of days.

If you still have questions after you finished doing the research, please come back and ask away.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

there are threads in this forum about peoples mixed tanks with lots of info. best advice is just use the search function and pm the people who have successfully done them.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

JPccusa said:


> I urge you to do some research here on Dendroboard. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum and it even got stickied. You will have enough reading for a couple of days.
> 
> If you still have questions after you finished doing the research, please come back and ask away.


What he said. Do your research and I will help you.

Just an FYI, with all the emancipated animals I see in pet stores and species from madagascar in with animals from south america which is a pathogen nightmare btw, We will just pretend you didn't try to use that as a qualifier.


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## Jasoneri (Jul 18, 2013)

Seriously. This is stupid. I came on here for some advise and just maybe some examples if maybe someone has done it. Instead I get dumb ass people trying to tell me I'm an idiot. Get out of your frog room and learn how to talk to people.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

No one on this thread has been mean or hostile to you. We simply asked some questions concerning your experience level so we could determine how to advise you. The question that was asked, how long have you been keeping dart frogs, could have ranged in answer from..
A. I've never had and darts
B. I've only kept some auratus for a few years
C. I've kept and bred over 30 species/morphs for years and years.
If the answer were C, you wouldn't even be asking a question about mixing because you would already know the answer.
It has been suggested several times that you use the search feature to read up and do some research on the question you asked. Apparently that's too hard for you. So instead you insist on looking for affirmation for the idea you already have in your head. So do whatever you want with your frogs, you're clearly an expert and light years ahead of any of us.
I have a couple of questions for you in closing. What's so horrible about setting up a separate tank for the pumillio? What's so bad about acquiring a 1.3 of pumillio and putting them in the 92 gal tank by themselves?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

And I'll say - do more research.

You have had a few good suggestions here (split the tank).

s


Jasoneri said:


> Seriously. This is stupid. I came on here for some advise and just maybe some examples if maybe someone has done it. Instead I get dumb ass people trying to tell me I'm an idiot. Get out of your frog room and learn how to talk to people.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Jasoneri said:


> I was hoping to mix and not set up another tank but they come with a tank so I might just get them and set the 92 for another group. They are going to be part of a trade, I am getting rid of an aquarium set up.


Gosh guys, this reads to me like he made a reasonable choice early on in this thread. Yet everybody jumped on him anyway. 

I would keep the pumilio in whatever they are in now.. get to know them for awhile. Then you can have fun planning your big 92 for a group of leucomelas or galactonotus or auratus, or even a pair of tinctorius. I once had pair of powder blues in a 125 gallon for awhile in an exhibit, and they were amazingly active and interesting in that space. I am pretty sure they are still peeved at me for moving them back to a 20g.

and one last piece of advice ... " dumbass people " comments, will not get you very far if you truly would like to learn.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Jasoneri said:


> Seriously. This is stupid. I came on here for some advise and just maybe some examples if maybe someone has done it. Instead I get dumb ass people trying to tell me I'm an idiot. Get out of your frog room and* learn how to talk to people*.


I know exactly how to talk to you but Mods like Scott wouldn't like it. And I personally said I would help if you researched. Don't ask now


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

I personally wouldn't mix because it doesn't seem like it's worth the hassle, health, and pathogen issues which you can learn about in some other threads. If you would like at least one example though, here's a pretty awesome tank design. If you actually read through it you will see how much work and planning was put into it as well.



http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/76723-big-woody.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/86056-my-large-mixed-viv-thread.html



whitethumb said:


> there are threads in this forum about peoples mixed tanks with lots of info. best advice is just use the search function and pm the people who have successfully done them.


This would certainly be the most help to you especially since it's such a touchy subject. Do your research as the mods say and then ask any specific questions that haven't been answered.

Take care


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## Jasoneri (Jul 18, 2013)

Well if I took some of the comments about me looking for an "ok" from anyone and me not to mention about working in a pet store as a cut down or negative. I have done research but there is obviously some answers I am looking for or I wouldn't of started this. I read the threads on "mixing" and I didn't find the answer I was looking for. What can go with what?, how should I set up the tank, ect. If I missed that thread then I apologize for obviously wasting people's time. I thought this is for learning something that others might have done. I didn't appreciate the way the answers were coming across and I apologize for the dumb ass comment


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

I think one of the major things people are trying to say is if you have to ask what can go with what, how to set it up, and what to look for you shouldnt be mixing. These are all things learned with experience and research. No one can give you a cut and dry answer on how to have a successfully mixed tank. Personally, one day down the line (years from now) i would like to do a large tank with some pumilio and auratus (morphs that coexist naturally in nature).


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## Jasoneri (Jul 18, 2013)

That is why I am asking. Because I am researching. I'm not going to experiment with them and stress them out if it shouldn't be done. I was looking for tips and experiences so I wouldn't make mistakes some people have been through. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. If it does in some cases, why and how. I thought that is what forums are for, to share experiences so others can learn.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

You are missing the point though. Caring for the frogs individually and having a few years experience answers most of those questions. You get a chance to learn how they use the space they have, how they interact, and what distinguishes stressed frogs from thriving frogs. None of that can be taught past a small extent. Also the research isnt just on mixing them it is all of the things i listed above while housed separately.

I have to add that i havent been in the hobby very long so i am not claiming to have experience with this. All of what i am saying has been absorbed from following others experience and figuring out what i need to learn before i even think about a mixed tank. Like i said before, i would like to someday, but not any day soon.

Edited to add: if you follow most accounts of mixed tanks, they usually start with "i used to have". That is probably for good reason.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This is key.

You have to know how different species *act* before you know if their actions when interacting are abnormal.

It's truly not something you can pick up quickly. Lots of hours of observation over many years is what it takes.

And honestly - I know of one single person mixing anything with pumilio. Pumilio can be quit pugnacious - I wouldn't recommend mixing them - especially if you're not familiar with their normal actions.

s


papafrogger said:


> You are missing the point though. Caring for the frogs individually and having a few years experience answers most of those questions. You get a chance to learn how they use the space they have, how they interact, and what distinguishes stressed frogs from thriving frogs. None of that can be taught past a small extent. Also the research isnt just on mixing them it is all of the things i listed above while housed separately.
> 
> ...


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

This forum tends to be pretty dogmatic about mixing. Believe it or not there are reasons for that. 

You probably know from your perusal of the search function on this subject that a post like yours gets posted probably twice a month. I'll ask you what I ask a lot of people in your situation. Why do you want to mix species? Are you assuming you will enjoy a tank with a plethora of multicolored frogs in it more than you will enjoy a single species? In my opinion the most enjoyment comes from a tank with healthy happy frogs that behave as naturally as possible, a tank where frogs are not dying, stressed, or wasting away. The most likely way to attain that is to keep a single specie of frog in your tank. 

Mixing species is like catching a baseball with your teeth. The very best outcome is that you get away with it and do no damage. You're way more likely to have a bad experience. 

For what it's worth...


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

Boondoggle said:


> Mixing species is like catching a baseball with your teeth. The very best outcome is that you get away with it and do no damage. You're way more likely to have a bad experience.
> 
> For what it's worth...


Wow, that's a great analogy. I'll be sure to remember that one


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Jasoneri said:


> That is why I am asking. Because I am researching. I'm not going to experiment with them and stress them out if it shouldn't be done. I was looking for tips and experiences so I wouldn't make mistakes some people have been through. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. If it does in some cases, why and how. I thought that is what forums are for, to share experiences so others can learn.


It is good that you are asking questions at least...even if it is a touchy subject. I'm going to echo what most others said though...You really should have experience with each species you even dream of mixing on its own before you attempt anything...like 6mo to a year at least. There really are good reasons we discourage it, and only seasoned keepers can get away with it, and not have a lynch mob form 

As for advice if ever you do get to the point where you can do it responsibly....

1. Bigger tank the better usually
2. Under populate your tank so there is less competition for resources.
3. A diurnal and nocturnal mix is easier, as they don't really interact as much because they are active at different times. A long the same line is niche differentiation...Like one hangs up at the top of the tank, the other never goes 6-8 inches off the ground.
4. If you plan to breed either species, it is possible the other will interfer with that in some way
5. Do quarantine procedures, treat for parasites etc..etc... Have meds on hand (need to follow my own advice), in case anything happens.
6. Have extra tanks ready in case you have to separate suddenly. 
7. Consider all the factors, circumstances, and variables...and then realize you missed a bunch, do it again...then realize there are to many to fully take into account, then do a risk vs reward evaluation...and factor in your experience level. If you're experience level is low, and you are feeling confident about it...you likely made a mistake in factoring for multiple variables and risk vs reward...wait till you get more exp.
8...try to avoid WC with CB.
9. Pick your species very very carefully
10. introduce everything into the viv at the same time if possible...adding things after something else has gotten comfortable seems to increase the chance of issues arising. 
11....Tons more


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Scott said:


> And honestly - I know of one single person mixing anything with pumilio. Pumilio can be quit pugnacious - I wouldn't recommend mixing them - especially if you're not familiar with their normal actions


This is what I would imagine about pumilio. I don't think I've seen any thread about them with another species, I'm pretty sure I've read that they're extremely aggressive, especially the males. I think I've read that even in larger enclosures it's hard to keep two male pumilio.


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## Jasoneri (Jul 18, 2013)

Thank you for the last couple responses. That is what I was looking for. You guys didn't make me feel like an idiot for trying to understand some more of the reasons for doing or not doing it. 
The reason I would want to mix is because I don't have a lot of room to set up multiple tanks, I have one 92gal corner tank that I think would look great. I like a lot of the different species so I just think it would be interesting to see how a couple different small groups interact. But I would never just through a bunch of frogs in a tank and whatever happens, happens. I would like them to coexist not fight. 
Thank you


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