# Amphibian Ringers Solution



## DrSalsa (Nov 4, 2007)

Hi Everyone, 
Just started with this new hobby, and already hooked up! But unfortunatelly, one of my vittatus is not doing as good as the other three. 
It's still not as skinny as other pics I've seen around, but the fact that I havent seen it eat at all is bothering me. 
I've been trying to get hold of some Calcium Gluconate, but the pharmacies around here look at me as if I was asking for a purple hen. One sells it on an effervescent form, could I use that one after I leave to stand for a bit?
Otherwise I thought I'd go for the Amphibian Ringers Solution baths (to provide calcium) and 10% sugar drops (to provide some energy) and Metronidazole to boosts it's appetite. I work on a biology lab so I have access to:
NaCl
KCl
CaHCO3
But they dont have CaCl2. Could I use CaCO3 instead?
Any chemistry students around?


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## Mustang (May 2, 2007)

I am no chemistry major
But I found Calcium Gluconate and a farm and fleet type store 
They use it in cows normally so any type of livestock store or vet should have it

And here is a recipe for ringer http://www.msu.edu/user/eisthen/lab/met ... ngers.html

I could not get all the parts to make it so I used pedialyte a children’s electrolyte drink should be found in any pharmacy do a search cause it not 100% the same but works in a pinch

Hope that helps


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DrSalsa said:


> and Metronidazole to boosts it's appetite. I work on a biology lab so I have access to:
> NaCl
> KCl
> CaHCO3
> ...


using CaCO3 (and the solubility of the Ca) will change the pH and is a problem for the amphibian. You can order ARS from some of the vendors on here occasionally or from Fisher Scientific. 

Okay, the metronidazole (aka Flagyl) as an appetite stimulant needs to be addressed.. it is not an appetite stimulant (see Dr. Mader M.S. D.V.M. D.A.B.V.P. column in the January 2008 Reptiles Magazine) where he states quote " Flagyl is not an appetite stimulant. Many years ago it was published as being one, but over the years, it has been shown that somethine else is likely to be happening. The Flagyl which is also used to treat parasites and certain bacteria, is treating some underlying disease. After the disease has been treated, the patien feels better and naturally, starts eating. ........ In a survey of toxic reactions to drugs, metronidazole (at a dose reported to stimulate appetite: 250 mg/kg) reportedly caused signes of nervousness, seizures and death in a few snakes and one lizard..... The recommended dose of Flagyl when used as a parasiticide or antibiotic ranges from 25 mg to 40 mg/kg way below the dose recommended as an appetite stimulant." endquote

The fact that you haven't seen it eat may simply be an indication of stress at your presence or even due to the other frogs. Shotgun treating it without determining that something else is wrong is very likely to make the situation worse. 
Comparing it to pictures of what people consider to be healthy frogs could easily mean that you are comparing it to obese frogs as the majority of the frogs in the hobby are fat if not obese (look at the pictures of wild dendrobatids of the same species or genus in books like Poison Frogs to see the difference) and your could be thin by those standards but healthy by normal standards. 
Pulling the frog and shot gun treating it could readily make things worse and a stressed frog is very likely to not feed and dosing it with sugar solutions or calcium gluconate is not going to solve that problem (those are treatments for specific applications) nor is soaking it in ARS.
If you think it is thin set up several feeding stations so it can access food without being stressed by the other frogs or feel secure in feeding (if it is shy for example, it may not want to venture from cover to feed and is being out competed). Pull it and set it up in another enclosure and feed it so it can feed without competition. Send out a fecal to see if it has coccidia, or other parasites (most of which are not touched by metronidazole) which could be causing it to lose condition....

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ed
Whats the options for treating coccidia?

Shawn


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## DrSalsa (Nov 4, 2007)

Thank you everyone for your advice. And thanks Ed for your detailed explanaition of ARS and metronidazole. I've obviously taken things from the wrong end of the stick. 
Before I discovered this site I contacted the frog supplier and he suggested to isolate the frog and try the 10% sugar thing. 
The 25g tank is quite heavily planted with loads of places to hide. The humidity ranges between 80- 99%, and the temperature is 23C at the bottom and 27C under the lights during the day, and 20 at night. 
Here is a pic of the tank.
http://bangor.facebook.com/photo.php?pi ... =720701961
and here is a pic of the frog which seem to not be doing so good. 
http://bangor.facebook.com/photo.php?pi ... =720701961
Now, I dont know what to do. I havent seen any territorial action whatsoever. They are not mature yet. And the food crawls all over the tank, no matter where I put the food. I have seen the flies pass right in front of his nose, and ignoring them completely. The others are actively hunting and engulfing hydei and wingless FF and pinhead criquets.
I isolated the non-eating one (in a transport plastic container within the tank to keep humidity and temperature right) and counted the flies (3-5) in the container to check if it would eat anything. I dont know whether I should leave it be, release back in the tank and hope for the best. Or continue monitoring it's food intake. 

Thanks again for your help! 

Nik


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> Ed
> Whats the options for treating coccidia?
> 
> Shawn


Sulfadimethoxine (Albon) but you have to keep in mind that it does not eliminate the coccidia from the frog. The frogs if necropsied will remain positive for coccidia but it simply stops the shedding of the parasite. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DrSalsa said:


> Now, I dont know what to do. I havent seen any territorial action whatsoever. They are not mature yet. And the food crawls all over the tank, no matter where I put the food. I have seen the flies pass right in front of his nose, and ignoring them completely. The others are actively hunting and engulfing hydei and wingless FF and pinhead criquets.
> I isolated the non-eating one (in a transport plastic container within the tank to keep humidity and temperature right) and counted the flies (3-5) in the container to check if it would eat anything. I dont know whether I should leave it be, release back in the tank and hope for the best. Or continue monitoring it's food intake.
> 
> Nik


You may not see any territorial aggression in the frogs, it doesn't have to be overt. This is possible in even well planted terraria. The frogs can be well aware of you and thier initial predator avoidance tactic is to freeze so your failure to not see any feeding just indicates that the frog is stressed, not that there are necessarily any other problems. 
The picture shows a frog that looks to be slightly on the thin side (the bones showing more in the pelvic region than it probably should). 

Moving the frog to a small relatively sterile enclosure may not cause the frog to begin feeding as it is still under stress (although of a different kind). Having a small piece or pieces of fruit to localize the flies so they are not running all over the frogs. Setting up several of these feeding stations will help the frog in the larger tank (also maybe adding some leaf litter near these feeding stations will help). 

In some cases, you have to take your best guess at it. If the breeder wants you to use the sugar solution, then I would suggest following the breeder's suggestions.. 

Ed


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