# Why do we use hybrid plant?



## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

There's thousands of native species. I want to know why do we choose to use non native plants from where our dart frogs originate? I understand that we looks of certain hybrid plants. Hybrids are bred to be more hardier then the the species. But as a hobby we stive for optimum conditions for our animals. I believe detorating with native native plant species should be a part of this condition. The benefits are great.
Here's a few,
1. Less stress on our animals.( The plants and animals evolve together.)
2. Conseration
3. Detector (canary in the mine)
4. Education
5. More of a natural flow


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

The bulk of the plants that populate our frog's biotopes are usually pretty rare in cultivation, and rare = expensive. And what "hybrids" are you talking about? Neo crosses?


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

On what data are you basing points one and five?

What is point two?
What do you mean by point three?


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## hukilausurfer (Aug 31, 2009)

Oh no now were gonna have mixing threads about plants! lol


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

for color and size mostly IMO. some plants are just way to big to fit into a 29 gal. so crossing them with smaller species gives us the color and patten with the size we want. I guess this relates more to broms than some others. Im sure there are more reasons out there than just color and size but.............


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Dane said:


> The bulk of the plants that populate our frog's biotopes are usually pretty rare in cultivation, and rare = expensive. And what "hybrids" are you talking about? Neo crosses?


 yes, bromeliads to name a few. Is the damand there, I fell we have a better selection from our suppliers


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## jon (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm pretty sure the frogs don't care.


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

I think more than anything we use hybrid bromeliads for their size. It is indeed ironic that this is a hobby that hates crossing frogs (which I'm also against, it's a BIG NO NO), and have mostly hybrid broms in our tanks (which I'm favor of, due to their size and availability).


Ulises


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

This has crossed my mind one more then one occassion. Why we hate hybrid frogs yet rave over hybrid broms that populate our tanks.

Kinda a head scratcher if you ask me . . .


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

its simple, most frog people dont feel the same passion for plants that they do for frogs. Plants are just decoration.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Occidentalis said:


> On what data are you basing points one and five?
> 
> What is point two?
> What do you mean by point three?


Point 2. Conservation ( with deforestion taken place on a daily basis. We should not only preserve dendrobates in our hobby. But the plant speices in wich they share home with in the wild if possible.
Point 3.some plants can sensitive when when their needs aren't totally met. Instead of labeling a plant difficult, we should accommodate the native speices in our vivarium. Inturn we create a natural prewarning system.(ex ph, temp,humidity etc Not to say we should rely soleley on plants to tell us what's wrong with our vivarium. This also ties into point 1, and 2.


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## AJ50504 (Dec 3, 2008)

charlesbrooks said:


> Point 2. Conservation ( with deforestion taken place on a daily basis. We should not only preserve dendrobates in our hobby. But the plant speices in wich they share home with in the wild if possible.
> Point 3.some plants can sensitive when when their needs aren't totally met. Instead of labeling a plant difficult, we should accommodate the native speices in our vivarium. Inturn we create a natural prewarning system.(ex ph, temp,humidity etc Not to say we should rely soleley on plants to tell us what's wrong with our vivarium. This also ties into point 1, and 2.


Huh?

Are you talking about keeping endangered plant spices that are native to the habitat along with the endangered frogs? I understand what you mean for the most part, but I'm still lost. If we kept the Endangered plants (which would have to be Legally imported to the states,and that is a hole different storey) would we really want frogs jumping around on them all the time? or just native plants? A lot of the plants in the rain forest get pretty big, and well I just don't have the house for that. most of the plants we use Are also from rain forests near the equator as far as I know. People have done a lot of research to find plants that work in a vivarium habitat for dart frogs. and what kind of pre warning system are you talking about? plants dyeing or roting? It might be just as simple as we just don't have the resources yet. Or maybe it is much easier to get close to matching plants. If i buy rare frogs that cost a couple hundred dollars. I don't think I would want to pay a few hundred more just on rare plants for the tank. which kind of happens any way lol

Thanks AJ


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

what does useing plants from diffrent places have to do with hybrids


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

charlesbrooks said:


> 1. Less stress on our animals.
> 2. Conseration
> 3. Detector (canary in the mine)
> 4. Education
> 5. More of a natural flow


1) Not necessarily... I can think of a LOT of non-native (hybrid, too!) plants our frogs love to hang out/breed on...

2) Conservation of plants? Hybrids are grown in greenhouses by people (not removed directly from nature)... 

3) A frog will die long before most plants will in bad (dry) conditions... Although in some cases I understand what you mean.

4) I completely agree! 

5) I agree - but it's only people that are really into this hobby that would know the difference between a "nice vivarium" and a biotope. Even then - I'd respect someone's work either way so long as the animals are comfortable.  

We're kidding ourselves if we say most people have 20*+* gallon tanks on average. I'm not condoning it, of course - just trying to be realistic. Getting hybrid (small!) plants keeps things much easier (and often cheaper!). 

(Someone cue the color changing leuc picture! HYBRIDS are taking over!)


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

I'm not a fan of hybrid anything unless it's a natural hybrid. I don't have many hybrids in my collection. I try to obtain species since it interest me what has evolved naturally and not through hybridization.

Different people have different reasons for setting up displays. Many want to create a beautiful display that also houses frogs and others want to create little slices of their environment. I think both are valid parts of the hobby.

I'm not a frogger but I have been on this forum for many years. I have obtained many rare plant species from people on this forum. Species plants are really not all that hard to come by. If you came to see me you would see what I'm talking about. Conservation is a worthy goal so plants and frogs should be captive breed if at all possible. 

Bio-types are a cool to try to accomplish but may actually end up not being naturalistic. Some rain forest have virtually nothing green on the forest floor while others are packed with plants in every available inch. So, it's important to know the local of your frog species before attempting a proper bio-type.

I really don't think the animals feel any stress based on tank decoration unless you have not given them any cover. Certainly you have to give them the type of plant they may need to breed properly but I think it's well proven they will use what's available in most cases.

It's funny though. There are some plants that are rare in nature and common as dirt in cultivations. Some orchids are widely seen in cultivation and no one even knows it's native habitat. So, there is something to be said for conservation of species.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

AJ50504 said:


> Huh?
> 
> Are you talking about keeping endangered plant spices that are native to the habitat along with the endangered frogs? I understand what you mean for the most part, but I'm still lost. If we kept the Endangered plants (which would have to be Legally imported to the states,and that is a hole different storey) would we really want frogs jumping around on them all the time?(1) or just native plants? A lot of the plants in the rain forest get pretty big, and well I just don't have the house for that.(2) most of the plants we use Are also from rain forests near the equator as far as I know. People have done a lot of research to find plants that work in a vivarium habitat for dart frogs. and what kind of pre warning system are you talking about? plants dyeing or roting? (3) It might be just as simple as we just don't have the resources
> 
> Thanks AJ


1. No, not exactly what might be common today, might not be tomorrow.(just as our frogs)
2. I mention before , if possible. There's alot of native plant speices that makes excellent vivarium plants. Information could be pass on. ( just as our frogs)
4.There's different biotopes within the rainforest (dry, flooded, submontane, etc). Different speices dart frogs call different biotopes home


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

bussardnr said:


> its simple, most frog people dont feel the same passion for plants that they do for frogs. Plants are just decoration.


What a shame, plant are living things just like our frogs. Alot our meds we use today are plant derive.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

nathan said:


> This has crossed my mind one more then one occassion. Why we hate hybrid frogs yet rave over hybrid broms that populate our tanks.
> 
> Kinda a head scratcher if you ask me . . .


I totally agree


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

You know, I actually wanted to make a Peruvian biotype when I was constructing my most recent exo terra that now houses my imitator pair. I tried very hard to find and purchase plants that are native to Peru. Guess what? The white vein fittonia is the only Peruvina plant that I could find. While it's possible that some of my peperomia's may also exist in Peru, finding plants native to one specific area (country) to create a small biotype is a large feat that not many at the hobby level have achieved. 
Now, with that said, I do stick strictly to Central and South American plant species and avoid using plants from Asia or Africa in my vivs. But that's jyst me...not everyone has the same toppings on their pizza.

Charles, I challenge you to build an elaborately planted vivarium using NO hybrids and plant species that exist in the same locale as the frog(s) being housed in the enclosure....you can even chose the frog. Come back and post pics as well as a list of ALL of the plant species you have planted in it.
I'll be waiting for your results.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

vivbulider said:


> what does useing plants from diffrent places have to do with hybrids


I'm trying to premote the use of native plants as a whole. ( natural biotope)


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## carbonetc (Oct 13, 2008)

I would use native plants if they were (A) readily available and (B) typically labelled with their locale. We can probably count on one hand how many online plant shops let you sort by place of origin.

I'm content to focus on keeping South and Central American plants and avoiding Asian and African plants whenever possible (though I do have a few). Every time I see a Nepenthes in a viv I cringe.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

As Harry stated before, there are a lot of species plants out there--it just takes a little more looking to find them than going to Home Depot/Lowe's/Wal-mart. 

I also collect "species plants", and usually avoid hybrids--unless that's the only way I can obtain something close to the species I want. Hybrid orchids usually end up mounted in the trees in my garden--and the species plants are potted and brought into the greenhouse or in the house during extreme cold spells.

Biotope tanks are possible--to an extent. While we might be able to use orchids and bromeliads that originate in a specific region of a country--they don't always grow in the same proximity that they have to in even a large vivarium. A large number of species orchids that we use in our vivariums are found in nature growing several meters above the forest floor. Sometimes a mix of plants from different locales (not sayind different continents) allow for planting in the close proximity and similar conditions that exist in the average size vivarium.

Not only are the bromeliads we use hybrids, but the vast majority of the species parents of the Neoregelia's we use come from areas of Brazil that are outside the range of Dendrobatids. Many of the bromeliads that are found in areas habituated by dart frogs are either far too large for most enclosures or require vivarium-like growing conditions--making it difficult to cultivate in the nursery business. There are a number of species of Vriesea, Tillandsia, Guzmania, and other bromeliads that will fit in a vivarium--they're just a little harder to find and usually a little more expensive--however a great number of them have solid green foliage and are somewhat boring until they bloom.

Certain gesneriads (esp. Episcia) present a little more of a challenge. Many of these plants have been hybridized for so many generations, that the species plants have been lost to cultivation. There are species plants out there--again it takes a little more searching.

Aroid species are much easier to obtain, but there are few in cultivation from certain locales that are small enough to fit in an average vivarium.

I'm currently working on some new vivariums, and planting them as close to a "true biotope" as I can--but I can only limit this to plants from the proper country and region of origin and environmental requirements.

All in all, I usually enjoy hunting down the "right" plant as much as constructing the vivarium. I spent last night putting together a wish list for the Redlands International Orchid festival this year--pre-orders from some vendors are going to go a long way in stocking my new vivariums....


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Charles, I challenge you to build an elaborately planted vivarium using NO hybrids and plant species that exist in the same locale as the frog(s) being housed in the enclosure....you can even chose the frog. Come back and post pics as well as a list of ALL of the plant species you have planted in it.
I'll be waiting for your results. [/QUOTE]
I accept your challange with open arms. What a coincidence, I'm currently working on Premontane Peurvian Vivarium. A while ago I ask my fellow members to help me compose a list. The responce was low, so I researched on my own. This is the list I came up with so far;

White Vein Fittonia (kmart)
Sub Tropical mosses (collected here in Orlando) 
Anthurium Arisaemoides (Ecuagenera)
Elaphoglossum Apodum (Ecuagenera)
Microgramma Piloselloides (Ebay)

Glasshouse Works

Pilea Involucrata
Polypodium Fallax
Peperomia Obtusifolia
Adiantum Pacific Maid

Plantcuttings. Com

Philodendron Grazielae
Pep. Glabella
Pep. Rotundifolia
Drymonia Pendula

Selaginella sp. Peru (fellow member)
Pep. Pep. Pupeolata (fellow member)

Neoreglia Tarapotiensis (Micheal Bromeliads)
Guzmania Lingulata Minor (micheal bromeliads)

Pleurothallus Grobyi (addys orchids)


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

thats fine if you want to make a biotope thats gr8 but the frogs could not care less


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

vivbulider said:


> ....but the frogs could not care less


That sentence actually means the frogs DO care...

I think you mean...."the frogs could care less"


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

like others have said, its very difficult to achieve. before i came back to darts i was in to biotype se asian aquariums and people are very serious about them, including the density, and proximity of plants as well as diversity, etc. and when i came back to darts i wanted to do this type of biotype tank with them..... it is very hard. think of it like this, if i go outside, i can see all kinds of native plants (incredible diversity) but even in a country this developed i doubt i could find even a small portion of these commercially available. when people collect plants i dont think they are looking for the "weeds" and plain looking flora but the beautiful, strange, interesting stuff.

its about what you can get.

i would LOVE to go to each locale and chalk line out the tank size and literally cut everything out, clean it and ship it back for locale specific biotype enclosures, but it isnt feasible.

james


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> That sentence actually means the frogs DO care...
> 
> I think you mean...."the frogs could care less"


 
No Phil, he used it correctly. "The frogs could care less" say that the frogs care at least a little bit. 

"The frogs couldn't care less" says they aren't capable of caring less because they do not care at all.


Most people I know say it wrong, I think it is just one of those statements no one thinks to analyze.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Cool Josh....thanks for the correction.

I guess I "overshot" that old saying by what, elementary skool.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

If lost hybrids can be duplicated, unless the the spiecies needs for the cross is lost too. On that thought, like I mention earlier, our hobby shouldn't be just a safe guard for dendrobates, but if possible the plants in wich they share their home in the wild with too. 
So, listen up plant suppliers. The damand is there. Also it could help with the sale if more information is given about plants. ( orgin, max out size, etc)


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

The damand might be there, but the willingness to spend the extra money isn't


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

its not just the suppliers, its the exporters, the importers the wholesalers and jobbers, and then the "suppliers" its difficult to get things like this accomplished and while there is a demand it certainly inst large, and the businesses based solely on PDF and PDF equipment, barely turn a profit as it is, and this would restrict these sort of niche market purchases. some of the suppliers here will tell you that they try and get a greater diversity of plants only to have them sit at the suppliers location and fail to sell, (and these are plants currently available, including hybrids) so think of what it would take to get these plants in....

permits, 
flights to go and collect what you are looking for
room and bord while abroad, 
inspections
certificates
etc
etc

so you see that while its easy, from your computer to see the possibility of a plethora of available-online habitat/ site specific plants, i think, that in practice it isnt so easy and wouldnt be considered a great investment for those supplying the hobby. perhaps some vendors could chime in on this, since i know a few were discussing something similar recently.

just somethings to think about,
james


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

there are a lot of species orchids available. ovr 3/4 of my collection is species. I also know country of origin for many of them.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

good point.
i think that orchids differ though since they are highly sought after and generally have some "attractive" quality, or interesting attribute, but regardless i have to believe that orchid cultivation is vastly more popular than the entirety of the PDF hobby and therefore creates a larger market with an interest in the natural variety that may be more focused on this sort of collection than lets say the market for terrarium suitable site specific plants with little "attractive" qualities 

a quick look at many locale photos shows what, compared to a "nice" pdf tank, seems like an incredible lack of diversity (and color), for many reasons.

james

here are some links to videos where you can see examples of pumilio habitats.
YouTube - Aguacate Pumilio Habitat
YouTube - Cayo de Agua Pumilio Habitat
YouTube - New Pumilio Morph Habitat
YouTube - Isla Colon - La Gruta Pumilio Habitat


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

There's also the profit margin for plant production. If a tissue-culture company (say Agri-Starts) puts a species plant into cultivation, there's nothing to stop another tissue-culture companty from propogating the same plant--and possibly marketing it at a cheaper price. 

However, a hybrid plant can be patented. These patented plants can then only be produced and distributed by the company with the propogation rights. I know a couple of people here in Florida that make a good living from the royalties on their plant patents...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Charles, I could kiss ya.

I, for one have a way bigger problem with mixing plants than with mixing herps. I really do not understand why we live in a society that tolerates breast reduction, but keeps dendrobatids with jewel orchids. I am dead serious. 

Although, in all fairness, I don't think it harms a frog to sit on a non-native plant, and it amazes me how it takes less than five minutes for Asian and African frogs to figure what to do with bromeliads. 

Two points:

1) Size: Some natives just grow to damn big. I love vrieseas and aroids, but how big a tank would I need for a _Vriesea saundersii, Anthurium gracile _and _Syngonium wendlandii_? And these are not considered big plants for their respective genera! As such, plants like Guzmania 'Teresa,' Neo 'Red Waif' and Philodendron 'Mini Red Empress' come in handy in our tanks. 

2) Vigor: it seems that some hybrids really are more vigorous, and easier to grow long-term. Any of you guys try _Begonia prismatocarpa_? It can be tricky. But the Mike Kartuz hybrid B. 'Buttercup' is damn near indestructible in a viv, and quite beautiful--although, it is possible it may sometimes occur naturally, as with begnia 'Manaus.' (Let me point out something I read in the BSI Journal, though: *Plants in cultivation are also subject to selection*. meaning, we are creating plants that live well in tanks, not necessarily useful for any mass reintroduction program...) 

I have always thought that tanks that emphasize geographic compatiblity, repetition and simplicity (not "one of everything") look more natural, and can be quite educational. They provide a window into what their piece of nature actually looks like.

And have not aquarists been doing it for years? E.g., "West African stream," "SE Asian pond" and, of course, "E African rift lake"? 

Why not us?!?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I think there is a growing undercurrent in the vivarium hobby of people who want to do biotope tanks. Josh H has taken a lot of time to comprise a list of SA plants and their countries of origin, and I added a much more incomplete list of orchids to the same list. The info is out there, and I think that more peole are becoming aware that its a legitimate possibility, and some sources for these species plants.
The need for miniature species, however, seems to be a limiting factor. I would LOVE to have vivs big enough to use full size Vresia heiroglyphica, or large Achmeas, or Bilbergias, but alas, I live in a 1 bedroom apartment. I am therefore forced to use smaller species and hybrids that, while not exactly right, are still close to what would be natural, or as closer as my viv can accomodate anyway 
Maybe you should push for more access to brazilian frogs, so we can use brazilian species neoregalias. Very few neos come from peru, and I understand they can be quite touchy in a viv. 
Some brom species I DO use and love are Vresia racinae, and Neoregalia ampullacea, and I really want a Quesnelia marmorata, but I don't think these come from an area whee they could be used as plants in true biotope vivs


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

charlesbrooks said:


> There's thousands of native species. I want to know why do we choose to use non native plants from where our dart frogs originate? I understand that we looks of certain hybrid plants. Hybrids are bred to be more hardier then the the species.


The argument of native plants vs non-native plants (i.e. biotope tanks vs mixed-origin) is a separate argument than that of hybrid plants vs species plants (using species or crosses/hybrids, whether natural or not). Related, since there are natural hybrids, but different arguments. Could you clarify which one you wanted to discuss?


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Corpus Callosum said:


> The argument of native plants vs non-native plants (i.e. biotope tanks vs mixed-origin) is a separate argument than that of hybrid plants vs species plants (using species or crosses/hybrids, whether natural or not). Related, since there are natural hybrids, but different arguments. Could you clarify which one you wanted to discuss?


You're right micheal..I wish I gave more thought to the title of the thread for the sake of discussion. Now that I had time to think about it. If I could title the thread over, I would title the thread, "biotopes vivarium vs. Unnatural planted vivariums. I believe this covers both hybriding, and mixing of orgin plant species. Both I see as problem in our hobby. This title also reflect that I have no problem with plant intergrades, wich occurs naturally. 

I fill our vivarium should be a window, not only into our frogs lives, but also into their natural habbitat in wich they call home.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

I have always thought that tanks that emphasize geographic compatiblity, repetition and simplicity (not "one of everything") look more natural, and can be quite educational. They provide a window into what their piece of nature actually looks like.

And have not aquarists been doing it for years? E.g., "West African stream," "SE Asian pond" and, of course, "E African rift lake"? 

Why not us?!?[/QUOTE]
thank you for seeing the whole picture
Thank you, for saying what on my mind, what I couldn't put in words
Thank you for the love you have for this hobby
Thank you for being true frogger


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I appreciate you're interest in creating a slice of their natural habitat, and creating it in a viv. I really do. 

To call it a problem is a stretch imo. Do our CB Tincs care what plants are in the viv?

I wish I could do this myself. It would be near impossible to get the plants needed. Any decent plants are very hard to come by here. I would suspect that is true for a lot of people not from the US.

After all, you guys have a warm place called Florida.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Maybe you should push for more access to brazilian frogs, so we can use brazilian species neoregalias. 
What Mark is doing in Peru, can we(someone) do the same for (in) Brazil?


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

charlesbrooks said:


> Maybe you should push for more access to brazilian frogs, so we can use brazilian species neoregalias.
> What Mark is doing in Peru, can we(someone) do the same for (in) Brazil?


Brazil is closed.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

charlesbrooks said:


> Maybe you should push for more access to brazilian frogs, so we can use brazilian species neoregalias.
> What Mark is doing in Peru, can we(someone) do the same for (in) Brazil?


Depends on whether the Brazilian government wants to allow a similar arrangement. My guess would be no, Brazil has a reputation for being very strict on the no export policy.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

You think..what Mark is doing for Peruvian Dart Frogs, Mark can do for the native plants on a equal, or smaller scale?..contact Mark?..not to take away from his excellent, and commendable work he's currently doing.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Arrynia said:


> Charles, I challenge you to build an elaborately planted vivarium using NO hybrids and plant species that exist in the same locale as the frog(s) being housed in the enclosure....you can even chose the frog. Come back and post pics as well as a list of ALL of the plant species you have planted in it.
> I'll be waiting for your results.


Nothing but Panamanian plants










Orchids:
Acronia phyllocardioides
Brassivola nodosa
Epidendrum peperomia
Epidendrum schlecterianum
Pleurothallis allenii
Pleurothallis luctosa
Pleurothallis pruinosa
Pleurothallis quadrifida
Scaphosepalum microdactylum
Stelis lentiginosa (not Panamanian but may occur in the Darian)
Stelis argentata
Maxillaria lankesteri
Isochilus linearis
Trichosalpinx orbicularis
Lepanopsis Michelle 'Free Spirit'
Trichosalpinx memor
Restrepia trichoglossa
Restrepia antennifera
Zootrophion endressianus
Masdevallia nidifica 

Gesneriads:
Columnea allenii
Columnea hirta 'Light Prince'
Columnea citriflora (mira)
Columnea polyantha
Columnea colombiana (not native to Panama but native to adjacent provinces of Colombia)
Codonanthe luteola
Drymonia variegata
Drymonia serrulata
Neomortonia nummularia
Neomortonia rosea

Peperomia:
Peperomia rotundifoia
Peperomia hoffmanii
Peperomia galioides
Peperomia tetraphylla
Peperomia blanda

Ferns:
Microgramma reptans
Microgramma lycopodioides
Polypodium maritium
Polypodium levigatum
Polypodium polypodioides
Polypodium bombycinum
Selaginalla martinsii variegated
Selaginella umbrosa
Elaphoglossum species
Elaphoglossum crinitum
Camphyloneurum angustifolium 

Misc:
Anthurium scandens
Begonia glabra
Macleania glabra
Sphyrospermum buxifolium
Clusia rosea 'Nana'
Ficus sp Panama
Philodendron 'Burle Marx Fantasy' (Not from Panama)
Syngonium rayii
Syngonium erythrophyllum 
Rhipsalis baccifera
Pilea nummlariifolia


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Wow!...thanks Harry, for the beautiful pic.,and the excellent list (good list to go by, when Anyone, or I set up strawberry vivarium)


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

That's excellent Harry! I'll be coming to you for plants when I build a panamanian biotope for pumilio.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Well, the unfortunate part is that snails and millipedes got in there and have virtually destroyed it. I will be taking most things out and starting over but not sure when.


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## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

harrywitmore said:


> Well, the unfortunate part is that snails and millipedes got in there and have virtually destroyed it. I will be taking most things out and starting over but not sure when.


that is a shame indeed! Were they from Panama btw? 
Your plants did survive?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Occidentalis said:


> Brazil is closed.


I was joking, I know Brazil is closed, I was just saying it would be easier to use native bromeliads if we could keep more brazilian frogs.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

wimvanvelzen said:


> that is a shame indeed! Were they from Panama btw?
> Your plants did survive?


Nope, good ole NC millipedes. I still have most all the plants but most have been removed to other locations. I did lose some though.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

jon said:


> I'm pretty sure the frogs don't care.


It's not just for our frogs, it's for conservation, it's for our hobby, it's for who follow in our footsteps. I believe in this hobby, a natural biotope vivarium is what we should all be striving for.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

MeiKVR6 said:


> 1) Not necessarily... I can think of a LOT of non-native (hybrid, too!) plants our frogs love to hang out/breed on...
> 
> 2) Conservation of plants? Hybrids are grown in greenhouses by people (not removed directly from nature)...
> 
> I'm taking about plant sp. within our hobby.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

carbonetc said:


> I would use native plants if they were (A) readily available and (B) typically labelled with their locale. We can probably count on one hand how many online plant shops let you sort by place of origin.
> 
> I'm content to focus on keeping South and Central American plants and avoiding Asian and African plants whenever possible (though I do have a few). Every time I see a Nepenthes in a viv I cringe.


I agree with you 100%. Vendors where's the Microgramma?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have found microgramma species much more available through trades. I have vaccinifolia and lycopodioides. Id love to get more species though!! Id say keep checking out RAREFERNS.COM, OR Antones plant cuttings website, PLANTCUTTINGS.COM as both have had them available in the past, or bug Harry


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

I appologize, for not being more specific. I'm talking about Microgramma Piloselloides . Charles, of Rareferns don't have it currently for sale. I found it on Ebay a while ago. Today I can no longer find it for sale.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Well heck, how did I miss Antone's site? It's Plant-Cuttings.com


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

woops, my mistake!


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> I appologize, for not being more specific. I'm talking about Microgramma Piloselloides . Charles, of Rareferns don't have it currently for sale. I found it on Ebay a while ago. Today I can no longer find it for sale.


I have this one but it's a bit too small to cut at the moment. It is virtually identical to M reptans which I also have but also too small. It is really starting to grow so it won't be long. Of course I got both from Charles


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

harrywitmore said:


> Well heck, how did I miss Antone's site? It's Plant-Cuttings.com


This is my favorite web site to purchase plants. This plant is it's not listed there.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

I just contact Tropiflora, they have it for sale...20.00 kinda expensive though.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I think that if the hobby starts harping on everyone that creates a non-biotope, care and interest in darts will significantly wane. The ultimate goal with this forum is to disseminate awareness and knowledge regarding Dendrobatids. It's a natural progression from a basic, planted 10g, stuffed with Home depot vegetation, to a massive locale-type enclosure featuring only species plants, but the latter requires a lot more time, dedication and $$. Charles keeps saying "Vendors take note!", but show me a vendor that has a constant supply of just SA plants that can be sold at a reasonable price AND make a decent profit. 
Maybe this is your opportunity to get into the business, Charles? Sounds like you have the drive and determination to start one.


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

As a plant vendor, I can't make money selling plants that way... Sorry. I grow both species and hybrids, and enjoy both kinds. And I also commit the apparently venal sin of hybridizing some of my own plants (mostly orchids).

I will happily include habitat information for the species I sell, but somebody else is going to have to compile that. I know it for most of the orchids, but foliage plants? If I win the lottery I'll have time to do the research. Right now I can't even keep the inventory up to date.

I personally have no problem using hybrid plants in vivs. Hybrid plants are selected for various good characteristics, including ease of growth. Many hybrid plants occur in nature, for what it is worth. I don't think the frogs care, and I certainly don't. I admire those of you who care, I'm just not one of them.

Rob


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Depends on whether the Brazilian government wants to allow a similar arrangement. My guess would be no, Brazil has a reputation for being very strict on the no export policy.


The hobby has kind of screwed itself with Brazil due to the problem surrounding a number of species including but not limited to castenoticus.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> It's not just for our frogs, it's for conservation, it's for our hobby, it's for who follow in our footsteps. I believe in this hobby, a natural biotope vivarium is what we should all be striving for.


How does this support conservation? There is a strong misguided idea that keeps cropping up fairly frequently that simply keeping a organism in captivity is conserving it, nothing is further from the truth. See the discussion here for an example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/47324-conservation-hobby.html

Given that simply keeping the organisms in captivity isn't conservation, I'm not sure what benefit a strict biotope enclosure would provide over one that contains plant species and hybrids from other regions of the world. The only real way that this would make a difference would be if there was some specific response that would only be triggered by the other species. 

Ed


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Dane said:


> I think that if the hobby starts harping on everyone that creates a non-biotope, care and interest in darts will significantly wane. The ultimate goal with this forum is to disseminate awareness and knowledge regarding Dendrobatids. It's a natural progression from a basic, planted 10g, stuffed with Home depot vegetation, to a massive locale-type enclosure featuring only species plants, but the latter requires a lot more time, dedication and $$. Charles keeps saying "Vendors take note!", but show me a vendor that has a constant supply of just SA plants that can be sold at a reasonable price AND make a decent profit.
> Maybe this is your opportunity to get into the business, Charles? Sounds like you have the drive and determination to start one.


Thank you for taking time to respond to this thread. I apologize if it seems I'm harping. It's just a little frustrating to me, when I'm searching vendors websites, and find a very limited neotropical flora selection. That's valuable space given to old world plants, can be use to increase the education, and selling of neotropical plants in wich Dendrobatids share their habbitat. Though this we can address some of the problems with time, and money, you mention. (Nothing can take the place of dedication.) For those who can't afford to see a dendrobate in the wild, we owe it to them, ourselves, and those who follow in our footsteps. Disseminate awareness and knowledge regarding dendrobatids habbitat should be apart of this. We gained much knowledge though the keeping and breeding of dendrobates. I want us to be able to say the same of the flora in wich dendrobatids share their habbitat with. 
Not to say old world plants have no place in our hobby..Some of us raise and work with mantellas...i'm just referring to the ones don't.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

> For those who can't afford to see a dendrobate in the wild, we owe it to them, ourselves, and those who follow in our footsteps. Disseminate awareness and knowledge regarding dendrobatids habbitat should be apart of this.


Not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly but..

if you are aiming for exact replication of a natural ecosystem in your vivarium, then the flora should not be limited on the basis of countries. i.e. plants have ranges which are not restricted by the lines drawn by humans, so if you're really aiming for accuracy in your floral selection it would be most effective to pick a specific location and then establish a radius from that area which you feel comfortable deviating. A plant may grow rampantly in the northern part of a large territory, but not in the south. So even if you picked a plant which grew in a neighboring country it could end up being closer to the locale you're imitating compared to the plant growing in that country (like if your locale was in the south). 

Also, I think people have to realize that even if they have flora native to the location of its inhabitants, the environment will still not be what that animal live in naturally (in this context I'm using natural to mean mostly undisturbed by humans). We cannot truly have a 'slice of rainforest' because to do that would involve the exportation of hundreds of insect species, authentic species of leaves for use as litter, ect. If you're really striving for accuracy you have to not only look at one biological aspect of their environment but all of them.



> We gained much knowledge though the keeping and breeding of dendrobates. I want us to be able to say the same of the flora in wich dendrobatids share their habbitat with. Not to say old world plants have no place in our hobby..Some of us raise and work with mantellas...i'm just referring to the ones don't.


Not everybody is interested in the flora, even if there was some obligation a hobbyist felt to go the biotope route it's not very pragmatic at this point, so that will deter a huge amount of people.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

eLisborg said:


> If you're really striving for accuracy you have to not only look at one biological aspect of their environment but all of them.


If we really wanted to be accurate, wouldn't most of our vivs be pure leaf litter with few if any plants?


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Tony said:


> If we really wanted to be accurate, wouldn't most of our vivs be pure leaf litter with few if any plants?


Well that depends on the habitat we are hoping to mimic.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Ed said:


> How does this support conservation? There is a strong misguided idea that keeps cropping up fairly frequently that simply keeping a organism in captivity is conserving it, nothing is further from the truth. See the discussion here for an example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/47324-conservation-hobby.html
> 
> Given that simply keeping the organisms in captivity isn't conservation, I'm not sure what benefit a strict biotope enclosure would provide over one that contains plant species and hybrids from other regions of the world. The only real way that this would make a difference would be if there was some specific response that would only be triggered by the other species.
> 
> Ed


 first, Ed, thanks for your responce to this thread and clearing up past issues( morph vs. sp.)
When we talk about optium conditions, food, water, substrate, etc. We campare it to natural conditions..so why not try to duplicate nature in every sence if possible?
You wouldn't put Ford hubcapps on your BMW, even though they fit...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Are the ford hubcaps cheaper? 

The problem is that natural in the wild for the frogs includes trash (cans, bottles, pieces of plastic), piles of plant material (cocoa pods).. and these actually result in higher population densities. 
If we are really considering "natural conditions" then what does that mean? Some of these species (like O. pumilio) are found in deserted lots in cities living in the trash and amid non-native plants. What about D. auratus from Hawaii? 

If one is really looking at natural conditions, then shouldn't one start with the basics like humidity, availability of sunlight.... how about reproductive conditions (providing conditions which encourage reproduction in excess of that of the wild) or even allowing parental rearing... 

The problem is that we have yet to establish that dendrobatids (much less any any vertebrate off the top of my head including specialists) requires a biotopic specific enclosure to demonstrate natural behaviors. For example we know that D. leucomelas does not need 80 square meters for a home range...

But we also get away from the discussion of how does this contribute to conservation...


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

But we also get away from the discussion of how does this contribute to conservation...[/QUOTE]

Okay, Ed..Just because a sp.is common in captivity, doesn't mean it's common in the wild. Factors that determine a sp. survivability in the wild is on a changing basis. There're numerous of sp. that survive in captivity only.
We, as a sp. is facing the greatest lost, and threat to biodiversity today. A sp. is lost forever, on a daily basis. Some even before they have a chance to be describe by science. For example their were Mantallas available in the trade, before having a chance to be describe by science.
I believe by replicating dendrobates in their natural habbitat, in captivity. It shows what we trying to protect as a whole.
(I know I'm going to catch alot flack for this) I often wonder, what if hobbist, and institutions had access to the Golden Toads, instead leaving them all in the wild to circum to fungus, and global changes..Would we be crying for another lost forever today, only to describe in books, text,and pictures.
Extinction of a sp.in the wild, today is forever. So let us maintain,and take value in sp. we have in captivity today.
As hobbist, we use different standard gidelines, when it comes to flora. Why not use uniform standards in the trade when dealing with flora,and fauna?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Maybe I'm missing it, but how does simply keeping populations in captivity much less attempting to keep them in biotope enclosures support conservation? I didn't see anything in there that supports conservation.. again see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/47324-conservation-hobby.html 
One could just as easily argue that by stimulating interest one increases pressure on wild populations through collection and possibly smuggling... 

There is nothing wrong with biotopic enclosures per se but one shouldn't delude themselves in thinking that simply keeping the frogs in biotopic enclosures actually contributes to conservation. One should also keep in mind that it is possible to have a totally correct biotope for some types of pumilio by supplying them nothing but a big pile of cacao pods for breeding and deposition sites or for another example auratus being housed in a pile of leaves with nothing but bottles and cans for breeding and deposition sites..... 

Ed


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

I so glad to see a lot of rare, biotopic plants entering the trade. A special thanks go out to all, that helping to make this happen....
Such a huge selection from when l first started this thread..


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## theroc1217 (Jun 5, 2012)

The reason plant hybrids are necessary is that plants interact with the substrate and viv conditions in a way the frogs don't. If you want to support native plants, you need native soil and substrates. This means supporting the plants roots naturally with the natural substrate. Since most people don't have room for a vivarium with a substrate multiple feet deep, hybrids that can survive the practical substrates are necessary.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

theroc1217 said:


> The reason plant hybrids are necessary is that plants interact with the substrate and viv conditions in a way the frogs don't. If you want to support native plants, you need native soil and substrates. This means supporting the plants roots naturally with the natural substrate. Since most people don't have room for a vivarium with a substrate multiple feet deep, hybrids that can survive the practical substrates are necessary.


Patently incorrect. I have nothing but Central/South American species in most of my vivs and use regular ABG Mix, the one used by many here. I certainly do not have a single hybrid (not including Broms) in my entire plant collection.


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## theroc1217 (Jun 5, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> Patently incorrect. I have nothing but Central/South American species in most of my vivs and use regular ABG Mix, the one used by many here. I certainly do not have a single hybrid (not including Broms) in my entire plant collection.


 I didn't mean to say that that's ALWAYS the case, but just to say that we don't perfectly replicate the conditions that plants grow in, thus in some conditions with certain growers physical constraints, hybrids plants are a logical choice. 

Also, since the frogs don't actually eat the plants or need to use them to avoid predators, as long as the plants are growing, and providing shelter and humidity, any plant that fits the conditions will do.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

The reason we replicate natural lighting, humidity, and substrate is because that's what the frogs need. Frogs don't need locale-specific plants. You could keep most species of darts perfectly happy in a viv with nothing but pothos and some film canisters. They just need cover and egg deposition sites.

I think that zoos ought to try to use native species of plants in dart frog habitats. I also think biotopes are a great thing to try to set up. I do not think that native plants in vivs serve any purpose beyond potential education (in certain situations) and the personal satisfaction of people who like to see native plants in vivs.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

If you're truly setting up a biotope, you should use some invasive and/or naturalized non-indigenous plants. For example, I once saw pictures of D. auratus in the wild with Ficus pumila growing in the environment. In most cases, a large variety of indigenous plants in a relatively small viv is really just a fantasy garden from the mind of the viv builder anyway.


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