# The frog formerly know as ...



## Scott

Is now Cayo?

I'm curious how this decision, and who made it, came about.

Anyone have any information?

s


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## NCSUdart

i'd like to know as well seeing as how i've got a breeding pair that has produced 5 froglets in the past 3 months.


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## Scott

I will be amused to hear what the people who insisted that the "grey" chiriqui and "yellow" chiriqui will say now. I know a number of them that were breeding grey and yellow together.

Can you say hybrid?!?

Sure you can!

s :?


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## verbal

Can someone elaborate on the typical appearance chiriqui and cayo morphs; i.e., without known locality information, what phenotypically distinguishes these morphs?

I've seen some chiriqui with creamy/tan bellies, some with yellowish bellies, some Brunos that look like Chiriqui, and some very pretty pictures of Cayos. Being someone interested in getting into these greener pum morphs, what words of wisdom do any of you have?

Thanks,
Ryan


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## Scott

This is nothing definitive (whatsoever). But the pumilio that initially came in as bruno are now being identified as chiriqui. These are the green, "grey bellied", "sometime speckled (sometime not)" pumilio.

Then starting 4 or 5 months ago (estimate) the frog "formerly known as bruno (but now known as chiriqui)" stopped being imported and we started getting a new frog.

This frog is green and yellow bellied. The toes/feet are often a light, light blue.

Sometime in the last week or two it seems that this frog is no longer known as chiriqui and is now known as Cayo de Agua.

So we actually have two different frogs "formerly known as" here.

Chiriqui were formerly known as Bruno.

Cayo de Agua were formerly known as Chiriqui.

Simple! :?: 

s :?


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## verbal

Crystal clear (I think). There must be "real" cayo's out there, as Sean at Herpetologic had some a few wekks ago for $250 each. i can't imagine he'd ask or get that much if they were the new chiriqui.

Ryan


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## Scott

That's why I'm asking. Who made the "new" designation and is it correct?

s


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## rozdaboff

When I saw the Chiriqui at IAD - I quickly realized the pair that I had - 










are not the same frogs. 

So I would be interested in learning more about this as well.


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## Scott

So you're saying the frogs on Johnny's table are not the same as your pic?

If you don't mind my asking - where did you get yours? I got mine from Johnny.

s


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## rozdaboff

I didn't see the frogs on Johnny's table - but mine did come from him (a few months ago).

I was talking about the other's I saw - namely on Robb M.'s table.


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## Scott

OK - I believe that Robb has the frog formerly known as Bruno (now the "real" Chiriqui).

Both forms were there. 

s


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## NCSUdart

The pair of frogs i saw from johnny's table that looked exactly like mine








(famale)

were labeled as cayo de aqua pair... so i'd like to know as well. the ones on seans sight also looked pretty similar.


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## sports_doc

Johnny was selling them as Chiriqui and recently changed the name to Cayo. His had/have the nice yellow bellies.

Shawn


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## Scott

sports_doc said:


> Johnny was selling them as Chiriqui and recently changed the name to Cayo. His had/have the nice yellow bellies.


But *what* prompted the name change!?!

Hey, hey Johnny! Come out and play!

[Man - does *anyone* know what song that is from?]

Johnny - seriously. What prompted the name change?

s


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## sports_doc

I have not heard.....but will email J with the thread link 

S


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## Scott

sports_doc said:


> I have not heard.....but will email J with the thread link


I already did. 

s :?


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## JOHNNY

These frogs were sold to me as " Chiriqui Rivers" . I sold them as such for the first few weeks until I realized they weren't Chiriquis at all. Thery are infact "Cayo De Agua" . They look nothing like the chiriquis that came in earlier last year. Email me @ [email protected] for more info.

Johnny


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## sports_doc

thanks Johnny....

Either way, the darn things are beautiful (I have 1.2 from Johnny myself)....

oh, and I too would recommend that this shipment of frogs NOT be mixed with past shipment animals...on peoples collections.

S


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## JOHNNY

Better yet, you can all call me @ 603 234 1296 . I'll be available all day.


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## Scott

So it was you who made the decision to switch the identity on them?

I do not disagree with you - they're obviously different than the Bruno/Chiriqui. This is why I have been discouraging the folks I've met who have not differentiated them in "Wanted" or "Classifieds". You do *not* want to mix these two and I know some people have.

Thanks for wading in Johnny.

s


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## JOHNNY

Well, if some one doesn't have the brains in their head to realize that they are not the same as what they already have then I just feel bad for them for being so stupid. Besides there are supposedly different populations within the Chiriqui region so why would some risk crossing 2 (possible) distint populations. That's some irresponsible frog keeping. Some people who asked about these told me "mine have grey bellies and legs" to which I replied " at the very least, they are from different populations. Don't mix them !". I believe the new ones that came in last week as "Cayo de Agua" are the same ones in question. I know some one who recently recieved some fresh imports, I'll have him send some pics. 

By the way thanks for throwing me under the bus on this one Scott ! Your "San Cristobals" are on my hibachi as I write this. MMMMMMM tasty little guys, spicy too since they're wild caught !

Johnny


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## Scott

JOHNNY said:


> ... By the way thanks for throwing me under the bus on this one Scott ! Your "San Cristobals" are on my hibachi as I write this. MMMMMMM tasty little guys, spicy too since they're wild caught !


No problem - just make sure to include my commission on all the *new* frog orders you'll get for the publicity!

[don't forget Shawn either! ]

s


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## rozdaboff

JOHNNY said:


> By the way thanks for throwing me under the bus on this one Scott ! Your "San Cristobals" are on my hibachi as I write this. MMMMMMM tasty little guys, spicy too since they're wild caught !


Nice 8)


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## josh raysin

does johnny have a website where one can see/buy these bruno, er chiriqui er cayo de agua? also has price gone up on any of these frogs *just* because of the name change?


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## sports_doc

Josh

Just send him a pm from his post above....despite his apparent bad mood today :wink: He is a easy fella to deal with... :lol: 

Shawn


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## NCSUdart

from what i saw at johnnys table, no the price did not go up, just the name. i have the same frogs and have not changed anything except what i might be calling them.


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## jbeetle

Are there any differences besides color, like does size play into at all? It would be nice to see a side by side comparison like Sean Stewart did for the Regina & Giant Orange tincs: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v511/ ... nacopy.jpg If some one has pics of both I wouldn't mind helping to put together something like this.


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## josh raysin

thanks guys, and if you dont mind me asking what were these imports going for at IAD. only place i know with them sells them for 250.


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## Scott

josh raysin said:


> thanks guys, and if you dont mind me asking what were these imports going for at IAD. only place i know with them sells them for 250.


There were no imports sold at IAD.

Officially.

s


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## josh raysin

oh ok, well what were these cb going for then.


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## JOHNNY

I had some of my own F1's as well as a bunch from a friend of mine at IAD. He's been pulling froglets from these frogs since last fall from a pair he bought at a show last summer in Seabrook NH, and some were just about sexable. So, let that be put to rest. I didn't change the price on them because I didn't want a ton of emails with everybody whining, " how come so and so got them for this price and you're charging me this ?". As far me being in a bad mood today, that comment was joke. Lighten up. I posted my phone# a few posts back because people always take what's said on here out of context. I doubt any of you have ever attempted to deal with the "farms" or importers bring this stuff in. It's not easy, they call this stuff whatever they want and leave it to us to sort it out. If an importer gets frogs in as "chiriqui" one month and the next month just gets in "greens" , they assume that they are the same frog and don't care either way as long as they can sell most of them before they die. Not every one gives as much of a sh** about these animals as us and you have to try and understand that. These "farms" in Panama are not farms at all, they are simply holding stations in the jungle. I don't care what so and so said and who has pics of what. The simple truth is these farms are owned and operated by a couple guys who are trying to make a living not scientists or hobbyists. It's simply just not that important to them.

edited by MJ profanity removed


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## bluedart

Here are some pictures of my Cayo de Agua. Maybe this will help. No belly shots... maybe I can get some up at a later time, but these really show the complete lack of reticulation, and the leg color and such. I should also note that I've noticed with these frogs almost constant color change. From a metallic grey to the deepest blue.


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## Scott

1) Nice frogs Johnny
2) Nice pics Josh - I'll be *very* curious to see if they have yellow bellies.
3) I knew you were joking Johnny - thus my comment on commissions. 

Thanks for wading in again (the water is fine, eh).

s :?


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## JOHNNY

Josh's frogs do have yellow bellies. I talked to my friend who just got the freshly imported cayos and most look identical to the frogs in question here but, there are a few mixed in that don't fit the profile. More confusion to come I guess !


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## Scott

Yeah - the only dif I see in the one's pictured and mine are more blue in the legs (and yes, I'm jealous ).

s :?


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## sports_doc

sports_doc said:


> Josh
> 
> Just send him a pm from his post above....despite his apparent bad mood today :wink: He is a easy fella to deal with... :lol:
> 
> Shawn


Joke people...see the wink....

Everyone should be darn glad they got some great frogs and that someone like Johnny is willing to deal with all the junk that comes with trying to bring in new animals into the country. I would imagine not an easy undertaking to say the least.

Shawn


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## geckguy

Without positive locale data, do not call theese new imports cayo de aguas, there are REAL cayo de aguas in the country and we do not need to run the risk of mixing two seperate and different locales.

Johnny do you actually have any true Cayo de Aguas? I do not see how you can suddenly change the name, and market theese as cayo de aguas without a postive ID from the collector (not exporter), or at the very least comparing them to known cayo de aguas. So how did you come to the conclusion that theese are actually cayo de aguas? Besides that they are different from the frogs that were previously being imported. How about classifying them as green pumilios mm.dd.yy


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## josh raysin

beautiful frogs bluedart! next time you get the camera on them, get a side shot so we can see the yellow. deff my fav frog. if only i had seen the price before i saw the frog


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## Scott

geckguy said:


> ... do not call theese new imports cayo de aguas, there are REAL cayo de aguas in the country and we do not need to run the risk of mixing two seperate and different locales.


You mean like what was happening with the two different morphs of Chiriqui?

Johnny gets points (in my book) for at least noting the difference publicly. I knew darn well they weren't the same as the previous Chriqui - but I just chose to keep them separate and not say much.

It would be nice to get locale data on these frogs. But even when we do get locale data - we're basically at the mercy of the collectors anyhow.

s


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## geckguy

I have serious doubts that we will ever have reliable info regarding the collection locale of theese species, so until then just label them with a basic description and the date of the importation, or the start of the importations of that locale type. It is simple. No need for a location to be tagged on to the morph label, we just need a way to keep two distinct morphs seperate and not run the risk of contaminating established frog lines. Simple codes would work, Morph A could be "man creek", B "Chiriqui", C "Bruno", etc.... How about a morph guide on DB, a few pics of each morph, the code name, and the importation date, and commonly used incorrect names.

It is obvious that the frog collectors and exporters have very little regards toward locale data. As with every new shipment the locale names come later,
and so far has seemed to require a visit from SNDF to Panama?


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## geckguy

I had a very long post, but then closed the tab, too many open with FireFox, but I will rewrite it tom.


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## bluedart

geckguy said:


> I have serious doubts that we will ever have reliable info regarding the collection locale of theese species, so until then just label them with a basic description and the date of the importation, or the start of the importations of that locale type. It is simple. No need for a location to be tagged on to the morph label, we just need a way to keep two distinct morphs seperate and not run the risk of contaminating established frog lines. Simple codes would work, Morph A could be "man creek", B "Chiriqui", C "Bruno", etc.... How about a morph guide on DB, a few pics of each morph, the code name, and the importation date, and commonly used incorrect names.
> 
> It is obvious that the frog collectors and exporters have very little regards toward locale data. As with every new shipment the locale names come later,
> and so far has seemed to require a visit from SNDF to Panama?


How reliable do you honestly think "morph guides" are? I've seen a man creek froglet look like the most AMAZING San Cristobal I had ever seen... but it was just a man creek.


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## JOHNNY

The 2 main morph guides out there should be taken with a grain of salt. There are some major descrepencies on both.


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## AQUAMAC

Scott-

Ryan and I brought in a shipment of "green pumilio" about 6 months ago, 3 months ago, and again about 3 weeks ago. The first shipment look nothing like the other two, but the last one even had what I believe to be a different morph than the chir rivs and cayo's that people are selling now...I'll see if I can get you a pic. We are selling them as "yellow bellies" until we knew what people were calling them. As of now we have both chir rivs, the new "cayo's" and some strange copper green frog with bright blue legs. Maybe you can tell me what it is.

All the best,

Mike


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## edwardsatc

Scott said:


> You mean like what was happening with the two different morphs of Chiriqui?
> Johnny gets points (in my book) for at least noting the difference publicly. I knew darn well they weren't the same as the previous Chriqui - but I just chose to keep them separate and not say much.
> It would be nice to get locale data on these frogs. But even when we do get locale data - we're basically at the mercy of the collectors anyhow.s


So if you had an established group of known Cayo's, you would have no problem adding these new frogs to your group? :wink: 

That is the question we must really ask when using the name of an established locale to label new imports.


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## geckguy

I am not talking about using one of the current morph guides, but creating our own, dealing with just the new pumilio imports, and classifying them based mainly on the date of the importation, and having a few pictures that represent the bulk of the morph that came in in that shipment, and labeling them with a name, that has nothing to do with any known locale. But then again this would require that the frogs we are receiving are all from the same locale, and not randomly collected frogs from around the islands and mainland that look like each other just to fill a quota. That may be the reason some of theese frogs are not breeding true. 

As far as froglets looking like a different morph, that is where some trust comes in on hobbyists part. If the person says that the parents were from the shipment on mm.dd.yy, then keep them labeled as man creek, not san christobal to sell them faster. 

From my point of view labeling theese cayo de aguas is false advertising, and should not be allowed, especially when there are true cayo de aguas in the country that could be mixed with this line if this is allowed to continue. I for one will not buy anymore of theese until we have collection data, something I HIGHLY recommend you all do, because unless we stop buying them, they will keep feeding us BS locale names, with little proof. They need to be shipped with a locale name, or code name, and not leave people (sometimes begginners) to guess at pictures and try to classify them themselves after the fact.


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## cbreon

I have brought up the fact that the pumilio farm projects are a front for exporting wild pumilio from Panama with no real intentions to create F1 offspring for exportation. As you could expect many did not like what I was saying. The fact is, I have reliable information from people who have tried to visit these farms. These farms are constantly locked, so no one can actually see the supposed breeding projects. Why? Becasuse there is little to no breeding actually taking place in Panama. I am not saying that every Pumilio farm is run this way, but I think that most are. I also have realiable information that the collectors are merely natives paid by an exporter to collect pumilio and bring them to a central collection point. These natives are free to collect from wherever they can find pumilio and then bring them to one location (potentially many miles from collection site) and give them to the exporter/broker. Obviously, these people are not scientists, don't give a sh**, and are creating a serious problem within the pumilio bloodlines. 

I have pumilio from the first importation that are a mixed bag of morphs. One that looks like the san cristobals now being imported. 4 that look like true almirante (all red with blue toes), two that are the standard man creek (black jeans). I also have two bastis from the first importation of bastis and one is identical to the frogs now being called red rio branco. http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/d ... =593&pos=1 

This week someone brought up the fact that these collections might be decimating already troubled wild populations. This made me stop and think. Despite my love for many of the new pumilio and my desire to own some, it might be time to take a stand against these questionable importations. Someone needs to reassure me that these are being done with conservation in mind. Many will make excuses and dismiss my accusations as uninformed, ignorant, or such. But the question is, will they be buying or selling the new importations? Many of us consider ourselves to be responsible, conservation minded hobbyists. We'll lets start acting like it. Its time to ask yourselves, why is there no collection data. Why are these morphs so variable. When one frog has lines and another has small spots and there being called the same thing, well that seems to stretch the variablility of morphs theory/argument.

My intentions are not to disrespect those parties making the importations, some of these people I respect as fellow froggers and good people. It is not their fault that the origins of these operations have nothing but profit in mind. They are merely middle men in a less than scientific operation.


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## bluedart

This ALL raises the question: What is a "true" (insert pumilio morph here)? Honestly, for all we know, most all of us have hybrids, unless we keep our frogs within distinct importations. I'd say that smuggled in frogs are probably the most likely to be "true". Not that I support smuggling, but I'm just throwing the thought out there.


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## Scott

AQUAMAC said:


> ... Maybe you can tell me what it is.


I'm full of questions - wish I had answers!

Thanks for the information though.

s


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## geckguy

I do not support smuggling either, but they know that if they can provide accurate locale info. they stand to make more money.


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## tikifrog

*My Chirique/Cayo*

I bought this "Chirique" back in November. Were they "mixing" the Chirique/Cayo "farms" back then too? 










BTW: Anyone have a calling male similar in coloration?

John R>


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## Scott

Hey John,

For the record it is your fault I have these frogs. I saw your pic and started hunting for them. I traded (with Johnny) for two pairs of them.

This is indeed the frog we're talking about. If you look you'll see the blue highlights on the lower underside and legs.

The only thing to be said for absolute certain is that they're not the same frogs as Bruno/Chiriqui (1st batch).

s


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## rmelancon

You guys let me know when you figure all this out so I can get the registry changed to properly reflect these morphs. I was going to weigh in, but at this point it's information overload crossed with opinions and speculation so I'm going to sit this one out.


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## bluedart

OK, so, does anyone else have any opinions to weigh into this? This was really going for a while, and I'd like to throw this out there.

Think about the variables in Bastimentos. Could there be the same variables among the "green" pumilio?


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