# Blue Jeans?



## alex111683

WOW, theres been quite a few blue jean posts on here lately. 

I need help indentifying thses frogs. I am told they are blue jeans but I have my doubts but then I again I am no expert on pumilio or any other dart for that matter They are wild caught. The seller doesn't want to give me the name of the supplier because he's affraid I might just go directly to them.


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## rcteem

No, those are mancreeks as my best guess...dont buy "blue jean" pairs for $150...they should be about $250 each for an adult


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## Taron

Those are alimarante not blue jeans

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## alex111683

rcteem said:


> No, those are mancreeks as my best guess...dont buy "blue jean" pairs for $150...they should be about $250 each for an adult


Yeah I was thinking just that. That a true blue jean is at least 200 as an adult. These are $75. I think he might just be an animal flipper.


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## ChrisK

Also if they were admittedly WC blue jeans then they would be smuggled so they probably wouldn't be openly advertised as so


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## mongo77

No where in that person's ad did they state that they were blue jeans. They are labeled as red pumilio.


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## Philsuma

Someone please post a link to the advertisment.....

Let's have a look.


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## alex111683

mongo77 said:


> No where in that person's ad did they state that they were blue jeans. They are labeled as red pumilio.



They arent labeled that in the ad. I emailed him to get more info becuase "red pumilio" is way to broad. He told me they were blue jeans in the email.


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## Philsuma

alex111683 said:


> They arent labeled that in the ad. I emailed him to get more info becuase "red pumilio" is way to broad. He told me they were blue jeans in the email.


#1 - "Red pumilio"......not good. While 98% of WC pumilio are non-site specific and we would like "better", we do understand that we have to deal with non site specificity.

#2 - Calling them "Blue Jeans" morph......that's blatent false marketing. Much worse than "not good".


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## stemcellular

It's not surprising, considering...

"Strawberry Poison Frog blue jean phase"

Strictly Reptiles - Wholesale Reptiles and Amphibians


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## Philsuma

stemcellular said:


> It's not surprising, considering...
> 
> "Strawberry Poison Frog blue jean phase"
> 
> Strictly Reptiles - Wholesale Reptiles and Amphibians


Yeah....every once and a while they try to jump on a "buzz word" marketing label.

Seems like the words "Blue Jeans" are just so damn tempting to use to juice things up. Occasionally they will also hit on "Darklands" for the blues....

Those pics above do not look like typical "Mike and Ray" stuff though....


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## heatfreakk3

Gosh all these Blue Jeans are causing so much trouble lately! lol


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## alex111683

heatfreakk3 said:


> Gosh all these Blue Jeans are causing so much trouble lately! lol


Or lack there of


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## alex111683

Philsuma said:


> Yeah....every once and a while they try to jump on a "buzz word" marketing label.
> 
> Seems like the words "Blue Jeans" are just so damn tempting to use to juice things up. Occasionally they will also hit on "Darklands" for the blues....
> 
> Those pics above do not look like typical "Mike and Ray" stuff though....


Not fimiliar with "mike and ray" can you eloborate so I know if its a good or bad thing.


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## Philsuma

I actually think that the Almirante with the sky blue legs are nicer looking than blue legs.


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## Philsuma

alex111683 said:


> Not fimiliar with "mike and ray" can you eloborate so I know if its a good or bad thing.


They own "Strictly Reptiles" in Hollywood Fl.

Read this book if you'd like a good read on the exotic animal hobby, Florida, Smuggling and Mike and Ray...

Amazon.com: The Lizard King: The True Crimes and Passions of the World's Greatest Reptile Smugglers (9780446580953): Bryan Christy: Books


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## Philsuma

Ok....I just tracked down the above pics....

Underground Reptiles Deerfield Beach Fl.....who buys directly from Strictly Reptiles (Mike and Ray).

I know them and the store pretty well.

Here's a review of them here:

Dart Frog Forum on Husbandry and Habitat Information

My advice...spend a little more $$...in some cases, not MUCH more and buy pumilio from a breeder, sponser or fellow dart frog forum member. You'll be glad ya did.


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## Jeff

Philsuma said:


> #2 - Calling them "Blue Jeans" morph......that's blatent false marketing. Much worse than "not good".


Not sure I agree with you. While "Blue Jeans" may refer to a specific frog (i.e. _O. cf. typografica_) to many of the folks on this board, it's still pretty much a nickname for a color pattern (red frog, blue legs). If you're suggesting the vendor is attempting to pass off a more common frog as a less common one by using that name, I think you're jumping to conclusions. 

I'm not trying to defend anyone (and don't know a thing about the vendor in question). I just think hobbyists should be mindful that much of their nomenclature is internally generated and not necessarily in use _sensu stricto_ by the larger universe.

[EDIT: failed to italicize]


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## Philsuma

Jeff said:


> Not sure I agree with you. While "Blue Jeans" may refer to a specific frog (i.e. _O. cf. typografica_) to many of the folks on this board, it's still pretty much a nickname for a color pattern (red frog, blue legs). If you're suggesting the vendor is attempting to pass off a more common frog as a less common one by using that name, I think you're jumping to conclusions.
> 
> I'm not trying to defend anyone (and don't know a thing about the vendor in question). I just think hobbyists should be mindful that much of their nomenclature is internally generated and not necessarily in use _sensu stricto_ by the larger universe.
> 
> [EDIT: failed to italicize]


It is well known amongst importers that a much hyped buzzword used in the dart frog hobby is "blue jeans" and they use it "generously" to market and sell Panamanian Almirante and man creek morphs - some of which have greyish blue leg colouring.

Everyone I've talked to, to include Marcus B and Sean S agree that the term "blue jeans" should be limited to populations found in Costa Rica and possibly Nicaragua.

To refer to _any_ Panamanian pumilio as a "blue jeans" morph is wrong, IMO.

Also see the recent attempts to seperate those populations into a new species.


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## Jeff

Philsuma said:


> It is well known amongst importers that a much hyped buzzword used in the dart frog hobby is "blue jeans" and they use it "generously" to market and sell Panamanian Almirante and man creek morphs - some of which have greyish blue leg colouring.
> 
> Everyone I've talked to, to include Marcus B and Sean S agree that the term "blue jeans" should be limited to populations found in Costa Rica and possibly Nicaragua.
> 
> To refer to _any_ Panamanian pumilio as a "blue jeans" morph is wrong, IMO.
> 
> Also see the recent attempts to seperate those populations into a new species.


I don't disagree that the northern populations (true "blue jeans") are distinct, and I imagine they will likely be split from _pumilio_. 

What bothers me here is that hobbyists have taken what is essentially a clever turn of phrase, laid claim to it, and are calling to task those who don't treat it as a taxonomic unit. When you say "everyone you've talked to", you surely don't include dealers who use the term indiscriminately, which is precisely my point. 

Dealers are mostly just folks who buy and sell a whole lot of animals as fast as they can. They're going to latch on to whatever language they can to catch peoples attention and interest. They don't necessarily know or care what distinguishes one red and blue frog from another, outside of marketing it. That's not anything I'm defending. I just don't think that's enough to say they're falsifying anything.


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## Philsuma

Jeff said:


> I don't disagree that the northern populations (true "blue jeans") are distinct, and I imagine they will likely be split from _pumilio_.
> 
> What bothers me here is that hobbyists have taken what is essentially a clever turn of phrase, laid claim to it, and are calling to task those who don't treat it as a taxonomic unit. When you say "everyone you've talked to", you surely don't include dealers who use the term indiscriminately, which is precisely my point.
> 
> Dealers are mostly just folks who buy and sell a whole lot of animals as fast as they can. They're going to latch on to whatever language they can to catch peoples attention and interest. They don't necessarily know or care what distinguishes one red and blue frog from another, outside of marketing it. That's not anything I'm defending. I just don't think that's enough to say they're falsifying anything.


The descriptor "Blue Jeans" is a very old....probably going back to the late 1980's and as such is firmly entrenched in the hobby vernacular. It would be impossible to remove it, at this stage. The best chance we have to dissallow those business-people the means to misuse it for profit (always from new hobbyists) is to try to apply it soley to the original populations of orange and blue legged (CR and Nico) pumilio. It's fairly obvious that since CR is closed and no CR Blue jeans can be had (legally) then there will always be people trying to import the closest Panamanian colour and pattern morph to be able to bite the marketing buzz of the word "blue jeans".

So you feel that Panamanian pumilio can be refered to as "Blue Jeans" ? Please expound on why you feel that is good for the hobby.


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## Jeff

Philsuma said:


> The descriptor "Blue Jeans" is a very old....probably going back to the late 1980's and as such is firmly entrenched in the hobby vernacular. It would be impossible to remove it, at this stage. The best chance we have to dissallow those business-people the means to misuse it for profit (always from new hobbyists) is to try to apply it soley to the original populations of orange and blue legged (CR and Nico) pumilio. It's fairly obvious that since CR is closed and no CR Blue jeans can be had (legally) then there will always be people trying to import the closest Panamanian colour and pattern morph to be able to bite the marketing buzz of the word "blue jeans".
> 
> So you feel that Panamanian pumilio can be refered to as "Blue Jeans" ? Please expound on why you feel that is good for the hobby.


Maybe The Hobby could trademark the name, then send cease and desist letters to anyone using it in a fashion The Hobby found objectionable.

Seriously though, I don't mean for this to get confrontational. I'll go as far as to say it's probably naive of me to give dealers the benefit of the doubt by suggesting that they're more disinterested in these differences than dishonest about them. Beyond that, we may agree on this issue more than you think, *Philsuma*.


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## Philsuma

No worries. There's nothing personal or confrontational here. There's only robust and sometimes vigorous discussion. There's really no other way we can move forward in this hobby. If we don't have threads like this, all we are going to be able to see is: "Cool Viv, Awesome frog" type posts

I guarantee that Strickley and quite a few Kingsnake advertisers, who have no idea that any given pumilio are CR or Panamanian, are posting ads with the words "Blue Jeans" in them because they have been TOLD that, that word will bring sales. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

There have been 2-3 threads on DFz attended by a dozen or so of us, hobbyists where we have sent the equivalent of cease and desist- or a least our attempt, to the owners and admins of Kingsnake and ya know what? They took down every single Advertisement of Panamanian pumilio - Man Creek or almirtante morph that were labeled "Blue Jeans".

I'm all open to hearing alternatives or any solutions


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## Jeff

Philsuma said:


> I'm all open to hearing alternatives or any solutions


I don't know if I'd call it an alternative, but I think hobbyists are better served first by phylogenetically-based and secondly by locality-based nomenclature. So I think _O. cf. typographa_ (which I have been misspelling this whole thread) and "Nicaraguan" are both better names than "Blue Jeans". That said, I call them Blue Jeans, too. Like you said, the name is part of the vernacular (and it's a cool name).

Really, I think the responsibility falls on the buyer. They should be familiar enough with _O. pumilio_ to know those aren't $60 Blue Jeans on Kingsnake before they ever consider keeping them.


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## Philsuma

Jeff said:


> Really, I think the responsibility falls on the buyer. They should be familiar enough with _O. pumilio_ to know those aren't $60 Blue Jeans on Kingsnake before they ever consider keeping them.


 
it is very difficult to protect the never ending cycle of new hobbyists that see the buzz words throughout the forums, blogs and then finally on sales lists and kingsnake ads. Harken back to how much research and information it too you to get a working handle on "what are thumbnails and which species", same with pumilio. This hobby can be confusing at first. I have personally seen new hobbyists plunk down $$$ on Blue Jeans pumilio, at frog gatherings and they were only in the hobby for a year or less and they were their first pumilio.

We -as advanced hobbyists and long term investees in the hobby have got to assume ownership to some degree, of a "Shepard role" to help the new people. That much, I am personally committed to.


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## pl259

I hereby dub them....Faded Blue Jeans.

(all trademark rights reserved)


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## daryl34

heres some pics of real Cb blue jeans.

Daryl

these are 3 week OOW froglets


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## daryl34

here is a subadult pic

Daryl


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## Afemoralis

Jeff said:


> What bothers me here is that hobbyists have taken what is essentially a clever turn of phrase, laid claim to it, and are calling to task those who don't treat it as a taxonomic unit.


In some cases, these 'hobby names' do end up being treated as taxonomic units (Oophaga for an example was published in grey-literature at best).

For me, the larger problem is that WC 'blue jeans' as commonly defined by the hobby, are currently smuggled. 'blue jeans' don't exist in Panama, the country of most frequent legal exports of pumilio. So any labels of WC 'blue jeans'- should set off alarm bells/revulsion. It translates to: 1) This is a shady/unethical source for frogs or 2) This person doesn't know what they are talking about. In either case, buy your frogs from someone else.

-Afemoralis


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## Terribillis

Have 'Blue Jeans' always been considered Costa Rican or Nicaraguan. It would seem to me that 10 years ago, mainland Panamanian frogs could have been lumped in under the 'Blue Jeans' tag.


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## Jeff

Afemoralis said:


> In some cases, these 'hobby names' do end up being treated as taxonomic units (Oophaga for an example was published in grey-literature at best).


Good point. What's more, the transition from the vernacular "egg-feeders" to _Oophaga_ was eased by the facts that the old vernacular name was apparently monophyletic, and that the vernacular and scientific names are essentially transliterations. 



Afemoralis said:


> 'blue jeans' don't exist in Panama


Several Panamanian forms are superficially similar (i.e. north side of Cristobal, some Almirante, etc.) to "Blue Jeans". If Panama had been exporting at the same time as Nicaragua, but the genetic differences between northern and southern frogs had not yet come to light, it's entirely reasonable to think "Blue Jeans" would be applied to any frogs of that general color pattern. My point with this hypothetical (and my original post on this topic) is that using a superficially descriptive name like Blue Jeans for a specific population raises issues. For instance the ethics (or the lack) when using the name broadly.

Anyhow, I hate to fight against popular opinion, and Blue Jeans = _O. cf typographa_ is pretty popular. Further, it seams to be assisting discrimination among potential cryptic species. That makes the term valuable (as was "egg-feeder") for holding the place while hobbyists wait for systematic literature to catch up with them. 

Also, if someone can get _bluejeanus_ priority over _typographa_, I'll buy them a beer.


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