# U.S Availability - Importing Question



## dzdncfsd (Apr 11, 2008)

I was doing a little research today on difference species of PDF's and ran across a website in the U.K and found a few dart frogs I really loved but have not seen anywhere on these or any other U.S websites. I was curious if they were at all available in the U.S 

First is the D.Histrionicos

http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image ... 032cf7.jpg

Second is the D.Bullseye

http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 022ut5.jpg


Is it at all possible to export froggies from the UK being that the UK is basically the 51st state?


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

No idea how to get them in the US, but that histrionicos picture is cool!


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I think it is possible to import them from europe in general, but at a high price. Of course I do mean money wise, but there is also a high likelihood that they are WC (smuggled) or maybe offspring from those WC frogs. Plus, I noticed that you are relatively new to the site and maybe even dart frogs. If the later is true, I would suggest you don't consider Dendrobates histrionicus even if you ever found some legitimate CB ones (in the US or anywhere else). I don't mean to sound rude, but they are considered a more difficult frog so more experience is needed to keep and breed them.


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## dzdncfsd (Apr 11, 2008)

Oh trust me I'm not even going to consider making my first purchase from overseas and definitely not going to pickup a difficult frog at this point. I'm starting out with Leuc's when I get around to actually buying some pdf's. However I wont be picking up any frogs for at least 3-4 months at the earliest. Just starting on my Viv build and want to allow it some time to grow in and get all the bugs out you may say before even considering to add frogs into the mix.

I'm already hooked on PDF's and I haven't even started yet. I've already got my first 6 sets of PDF's planned so wanted to start looking overseas for my 7-10.

I'm kidding by the way.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Any one can fell free to call me out on this is they want if I am wrong. But I am pretty shore that the bulls eye is just a morph of Histrionicos.
Brian


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Brian Ferriera said:


> Any one can fell free to call me out on this is they want if I am wrong. But I am pretty shore that the bulls eye is just a morph of Histrionicos.
> Brian


Yes, "bullseye" is just a morph of _D. histrionicus_.


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## dzdncfsd (Apr 11, 2008)

I did a search and figured out why the first search came up with nothing. Had it spelled wrong. Once I searched the forum for Histrionicus I found hundreds of references to this species. Very interesting reading and too bad to see these almost completely gone from the U.S market. From the sounds of things they were extremely common 15+ years ago.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

there are still people here in the US that are working with them ive heard. actually heard alot. but they are extremely rare and expensive. plus they are so difficult to breed that the people that have them only get a couple froglets a year.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ve heard that a lot too. I also heard of a newbie at nwff getting a histo a few years back. He got his first frogs from me(azureus) and got his second(histo) there.
I`m pretty sure the female I sold ended up in alex sens hands. Anyone know how she did?


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

Please be aware that 99.9% of these frogs offered in Europe are wild caught from highly endangered populations. These frogs have not *legally* entered Europe since the early 90s. So offspring is highly unlikely (85% of the imported frogs perished soon after or during arrival).

Still interested? Bring lots of $ pairs of these frogs will go for as much as 5000 dollar.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

There are still several populations of histos in the US, you just have to meet the right people and earn their trust to find some. Alot of people, myself included, don't discuss the animals they have in their care.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I thought Puerto Rico was basically the 51st state. 8)


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

013 said:


> Please be aware that 99.9% of these frogs offered in Europe are wild caught from highly endangered populations. These frogs have not *legally* entered Europe since the early 90s. So offspring is highly unlikely (85% of the imported frogs perished soon after or during arrival).


i doubt that 99.9% of them are smuggled. they do breed them, ive seen it on other forums from the UK and in books such as "the professional breeders series" where they talk about breeding them. i would love to get the valley form, and the blue bullseye morph :mrgreen: and my favorite frog is totally lehmanni(unfortunetly)


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

scott r said:


> There are still several populations of histos in the US, you just have to meet the right people and earn their trust to find some. Alot of people, myself included, don't discuss the animals they have in their care.


From anoles and dart frogs



> To answer your question, yes, it is perfectly fine. They will not bother each other.
> 
> I have PDFs, RETF, Firebelly toads, house geckos, anoles, and a veiled chameleon housed together, have for several years. No Problems.
> 
> ...


I hope this isn`t where you keep your histos. I`ve had veileds try and eat froglets in clear containers bringing the container up to their mouth. I tried putting an anole in w/ green treefrogs once and they tried to eat them too.
I don`t think it`s trust you have to earn just cash.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

thedude said:


> i doubt that 99.9% of them are smuggled. they do breed them, ive seen it on other forums from the UK and in books such as "the professional breeders series" where they talk about breeding them. i would love to get the valley form, and the blue bullseye morph :mrgreen: and my favorite frog is totally lehmanni(unfortunetly)


I use to talk to to several froggers from Europe and adult _histrionicus_, _granuliferus_, _vicentei_, _arboreus_, as well as new morphs of various thumbnails and pumilio were, and from what I know still are, a common site at reptile/frog shows. These frogs were pretty much all WC (smuggled frogs) not CB. How often do you see adults of rare frogs for sale as pairs or groups? Not often. Are there people breeding them? Yes, but to what degree. I have only seen 2-3 CB _histrionicus_ during my time in the hobby (about 7+ years). I'd say that 2-3 per 7 years isn't enough to make up for the number of adult _histrionicus_ that seem to pop up in the European hobby. I'm sure _histrionicus_ can repoduce faster then this and with the progress the hobby has made there will probably be more breeding success with them. However I think it is still a far way off from just going to a frog show and seeing them on (or under) the table. There may be some CB frogs available from time to time, but they are most likely descended from smuggled frogs. So the 99% smuggled comment doesn't strike me as too far off from the truth.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

I never confirmed or denied that I had Histos. Yes, I do have all of those as I stated in a 120 gallon aquarium that is across the street in my kids school's lobby. And, have never had any problems with any aggression or one trying to eat another. 

The veiled chameleon of which you speak wouldn't be able to pull the froglet back with it's tongue due to the weight. So, I don't believe you.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Scott, Veileds can eat pretty big pinky mice which outweigh most darts. Adult crickets are bigger and heavier than froglets.
Sorry, sidetrack, my fault. that shouldve been a pm


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

A full grown veiled possibly, but a little common sense is needed. An adult mossy frog could eat a froglet too, but knowing this, I wouldn't put a froglet with a adult Mossy. A juvie mossy yes.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

To address your comment Aaron, no, money has nothing to do with it. I have kept Dart frogs since the early 90s. Reptiles sinces the mid 80s. In 1993, I had a full grown white throat monitor that I kept in an outdoor enclosure in the backyard for 2 hours a day during the summer months. A DNR officer showed up at the door one day and said there was a complaint I was keeping an alligator which was against state law. He came in, saw what I had, saw everything was well cared for, healthy, and everything was in naturalistic vivaria, and told me to have a nice day. Two years later, a window installer called to report I had a 30 foot snake. It was actually an 18 foot red tail Boa. At 18 feet, it was over the states legal length, but the officer again saw the condition of my animals, and left without any issues. So, I do not like to discuss what I have other than the commonly available species. 

As for my keeping mixed tanks, that is my choice whether you agree or disagree. I've been doing it for nearly 20 years, and all of the needs of each animal are met, and there are no stress issues.

As for Dart frogs, While there are some very experienced keepers on this site, no one here is the first one to keep dart frogs in captivity. As a matter of fact, no one in the US can lay claim to that honor. I do tip my hat to Mr. Powell, as he is a leader in dart frog husbandry in the US.
But, People like Helmut and Elke Zimmerman maintained large collections of dart frogs many years ago, and would be considered pioneers in the field of dart frog husbandry. As did John Uhern, Sean Mckeown, Phillip De Vosjoli, and many others. The offspring of these animals are still around, people just don't advertise that they have them. And alot of people will only deal with people they know and trust due to changing laws. These people don't have websites to make a buck off the offspring.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

scott r said:


> Two years later, a window installer called to report I had a 30 foot snake. It was actually an 18 foot red tail Boa. At 18 feet, it was over the states legal length, but the officer again saw the condition of my animals, and left without any issues.


red tailed boas only get a little over 10 feet. what are you feeding it? deer


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Dude, re-read that statement those "length" is what was reported to police on their report, not the actual length of the snake. 
However, I have been several red tails reach 20 plus feet. You do know there are more than one type of red tail I hope


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

Hijacked like woa!


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`m sure glad they stuck around long enough and are sharing the wealth of info they have on these guys w/ the general public instead of becoming a clique.
At least Robb has documented what he`s done.
Besides that I bought a lot of my first frogs from john and Sean and Chuck and Chuck is the only one I still keep in touch w/. I guess my breeding success` weren`t up to par to be included in the group.
Considering I see pics of sylvatica listed looking for a mate and black jungle lists all the species they have I`m sure there`s nothing to worry about w/ legal status or bj would`ve took theirs off display years ago.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

scott, you should re-read it cause according to you it says it was reported as 30 feet and was ACTUALLY 18 feet. and yes i know there are other types but ive never heard of them getting that big. or any species of boa for that matter, thats python length your getting into.


ya i saw that post for the sylvatica too and thought it was fuuny. do you think anyone will actually have one they are selling? 

i was wondering, how many dif. morphs of histrionicus and sylvaticus are there?? i always see new one when i look for pictures.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

No, It was as typed. She was a hair over 18 foot when she passed away. Pythons have reached lengths closer to 30 feet. Which species of boas do you keep? With your expertise, you must have quite the collection.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

well if it was as typed then why did you tell me to re read it? since i stated the same thing you said. also, i never said you were wrong i just never heard of a red tailed boa getting 18ft or any boa getting 20ft. so you dont have to be a total a** about it. and my "expertise" as you put it also says that only ONE species of python has ever reached 30+ feet and thats the reticulated python. the other pythons that get close are burmese and african rock pythons that only reach 28ft and thats the record(theyre usually alot less).

if the mods feel like deleting this cause it is off topic that is fine(as if you need my permission :lol: )


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