# Where are imported frogs from?



## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

Title Says it all. Are imports caught in the wild, and where? How do you know if the frogs are healthy and not poisonous? Or are you just taking a chance with them.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Well, hope this isn't taken as vendor feedback, it's not meant to be but I feel this is the general consensus

Some imports come from Europe, *most* (but not all) of which are CB and are a fairly safe bet. For example, Sean Stewart imports some of his frogs from the EU occasionally.

Understory Enterprises imports CB frogs from their program in Canada and is a 100% safe bet, they do pretty much everything right and don't think I've heard a complaint about them. 

SNDF imports WC adults and/or hand-picks and apparently quarantines frogs from other imports (I believe they also sell some CB as well), pretty safe bet, usually healthy but specific locale info is not usually attached to the frogs. 

Other importers such as Strictly Reptiles and the people they sell to (Underground Reptiles, etc) are the ones you need to be careful of, they deal with so many different types of herps that frogs are not really a huge priority for them.... their WC's rarely come in with any concrete locale info and are often stressed or unhealthy (hence the cheaper pricing).


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

May I gently suggest the "Search" feature? You can learn a lot that way. Do a lot of research first - then start asking questions.

s


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I find it funny that Strictly Reptiles is unsure of their locales but....they buy from the EXACT same exporters as SNDF and are provided the same info. The come in just the same as SNDF, but if they do stay there for a while before being sent off, yes, the health may not be as good (as with any wholesaler). As for a priority, since Strictly is one of the few importers of darts in the USA (and easily the largest), they are big sellers for them. They are a large priority.

Just some info to chew on.



tclipse said:


> SNDF imports WC adults and/or hand-picks and apparently quarantines frogs from other imports (I believe they also sell some CB as well), pretty safe bet, usually healthy but specific locale info is not usually attached to the frogs.
> 
> Other importers such as Strictly Reptiles and the people they sell to (Underground Reptiles, etc) are the ones you need to be careful of, they deal with so many different types of herps that frogs are not really a huge priority for them.... their WC's rarely come in with any concrete locale info and are often stressed or unhealthy (hence the cheaper pricing).


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

gardennub said:


> Title Says it all. Are imports caught in the wild, and where? How do you know if the frogs are healthy and not poisonous? Or are you just taking a chance with them.


For wild caught frogs, they are caught whichever population that is in demand and can be exported (hopefully legally...) Frogs that are imported from places other than South America (like from Europe) are not typically not wild caught and have been in captivity for awhile. 
Buy frogs from a reputable dealer to minimize chances of getting a sick frog because many reptile dealers that import wild caught frogs and sell them cheaply sell poor frogs with parasites. Frogs with better site data, hopefully better quality and quarantine are from better sellers and will cost more. Or, better yet, start out with captive bred frogs to avoid a lot of these extra complications that can happen with WC frogs...
The only really poisonous frogs that I would worry about are some frogs in the Phyllobates group, especially P. terribilis, have been in the hobby for awhile and are not exported wild caught, and since frogs lose toxicity in captivity, there's no worry about being poisoned from them.
Bryan


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

The frogs that you can purchase from the sponsors on this site are captive bred and aren't poisonous. If not I don't thing they should be a sponsor 
The site will list if they are captive bred.

I remember a fellow member Field was telling me about his friend buying some wild caught ones and he ate some Doritos after handling them and his face went numb 

In the wild they eat things that make them toxic and in captivity they can't eat these things so they are poisonous.
No one is really sure why lol.
Always go with captive bred cause these lil guys are pretty deadly.
I was watching National Geographic's World Deadliest and they say they is no cure for their venom and one PDF has enough to kill 10 men.
The terribilis are known to be the most venomous/poisonous out all of them.
I will make sure I get captive bred 

here is a Nat Geo article for you...the golden poison dart frog is a phyllobates terriblis...
Golden Poison Dart Frogs, Golden Poison Dart Frog Pictures, Golden Poison Dart Frog Facts - National Geographic


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> The frogs that you can purchase from the sponsors on this site are captive bred and aren't poisonous.
> The site will list if they are captive bred.
> In the wild they eat things that make them toxic and in captivity they can't eat these things so they are poisonous.
> No one is really sure why lol.
> Always go with captive bred cause these lil guys are pretty deadly.


Careful...that may not be entirely accurate, see:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html#post150012

P.S. the story you mentioned was not my friend...a friend told me the story about a friend and it was mantellas not darts.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> In the wild they eat things that make them toxic and in captivity they can't eat these things so they are poisonous.
> No one is really sure why lol.


Actually there is pretty good evidence as to why and the sources of the toxins.. for example oribatid mites Oribatid mites as a major dietary source for alkaloids in poison frogs and schlerobatid mites 
SpringerLink - Journal of Chemical Ecology , Volume 31, Number 10 are both documented as sources as are some beetles and ants.. 

And as for the reasons why, we have good reasons on that as well.. for example it reduces predation and allows those taxa to feed diurnally.. and it also reduces attacks by mosquitos and possibly other arthropods... 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Always go with captive bred cause these lil guys are pretty deadly.


This is overhype bordering on BS.... out of all of the species of dendrobatid frogs there are very few that are "deadly" (and all but one potentially Coleothesthus inguinalis as it has a tetrodotoxin) of which are in the genus Phyllobates).... in fact with a number of species, ressearchers tasted them to see if they were toxic or not as the toxic alkaloids taste bitter... If I have to, I can dig up some of Daly's work on that. As an example the bitter taste is discussed briefly here but supplies the relevent citations... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.2010.00732.x/full

As Field noted, people often think that it makes the frogs totally harmless which is not the case. The frogs still produce a wide variety of peptides which can make you very unhappy or put a hurt on you. The only toxins that are lost in captivity are the alkaloids which are the only ones (along with the tetrodotoxin) are aquired through the diet. 

See ScienceDirect - Toxicon : First occurrence of tetrodotoxin in a dendrobatid frog (Colostethus inguinalis), with further reports for the bufonid genus Atelopus for the reference on the tetrodotoxin in C. inguinalis. 

Ed


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

Wow thanks for all the great information!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

To get back to your original question, a large portion of the frogs that are imported for the hobby are or were wild caught however as noted above, there are a number of good resources that supply quality captive bred frogs or frogs that sustain conservation programs. Those frogs are the ones you should patronize. Typically they cost more than the frogs you see on some other classified sections but the risk of having health issues (and getting an issue resolved) is much greater when purchasing captive bred animals. In many cases those inexpensive wild caught frogs end up having massive mortalities shortly after arriving into the hobby (with some anecdotal reports of 100% loss in under six months). 

Ed


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

Makes sense. I don't really like to take animals from the wild anyway, so why would I want to purchase one from the wild? Thats my thinking. So thanks for the help guys! I will make sure to purchase captive bred.


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