# Good or Bad clutch?



## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

Hey everyone,

I recently purchased a proven pair of O. Pumilio Cristobals. Not even 48 hours after putting them into their new home, the male began calling...A LOT. About 10 days later I noticed a clutch of eggs! (I was very excited things were progressing so well and so quickly) I then noticed over the next week or so that there are actually 3 different clutches around the viv on various leaves.. although I couldn't tell if any were actually fertilized or not. These are my first frogs to actually produce a clutch, so I have no real experience with eggs in person, although my good friend has a lot of experience, just cant come over very often at all. 

I am questioning if any of these eggs are actually fertilized or not. I was under the impression that the eggs turn black in the center when they are fertilized. These are more of a grey (not even dark grey) but, 5 of the 7 looked like they have turned this color while the other 2 never really changed....and those 2 have since dissolved and washed away.

Here are a few pictures of the clutches that are visible:









About a week ago. 7 eggs in this clutch. 5 of the eggs looked to be "good"









A few days later. The 2 odd ball eggs are losing shape at this point.









Taken this morning. The 2 odd balls are gone completely now. The 5 remaining looked as tho they were starting to lose shape and beginning to dissolve as the other 2 had done previously. I had come to terms with the clutch being "unfertilized" at this point (mainly due to their color) but still was making sure they were heavily misted and didn't dry out. During the misting this morning, I swear I saw what looked like a tad tail sticking out of an egg give a little wiggle, and for the first time began to think they could actually be fertilized and developing! If you look close at this picture, you can see what looks like a tad tail sticking out of 2 of the 5 remaining eggs. (There are only 5 eggs, there is some reflection that kinda looks like another couple eggs but are not)









This was another clutch that slowly slid down the leaf after a few days into the water the brom was holding.....no idea if they were ever fertilized or how they are doing since they slid into the water, as I cannot see them! Very curious whats going on in there....

The third clutch I have no yet taken a picture of...


And of course I cant forget a few pictures of the parents!








Calling male

































And a few nice shots of the frogs exploring and hanging out!

I have also added a white film canister suctioned to the wall as well to hopefully help with the success rate. I added it when I was pretty sure no eggs were getting fertilized....which I may have been wrong about. For the film canister, I have it positioned horizontally (not vertical or at 45) but wasn't positive which orientation is best...I also have black ones too. Suggestions what works best for people with color or orientation of film canisters for breeding cristos??

I am also wondering if all 3 of these clutches actually are fertilized and produce tads, how many clutches can the frogs take care of simultaneously? Will they be overloaded with tads and maybe have some die off because they cant give it enough attention? Are multiple clutches problematic or is more generally better and just leads to more frogs?


So, if anyone can please give me their thoughts on if these eggs are looking good or not, or not the right color, regarding film canister placement, too many tad site issues, or anything at all to help me know if things are moving in the right direction, I would love the help! All comments are appreciated. 

And I am sorry for the poor picture quality. If its too hard to tell whats going on due to the poor image quality, I will attempt to use a better camera. For the sake of ease, I only used my IPhone....

Please give me your thoughts and suggestions, and Thanks for looking!

In any event, its exciting stuff!!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Are all of the eggs in the first clutch losing shape or are they changing because they are developing? 

My pums would lay 3 clutches. Then, when they developed into tads, they seemed to take only a few of them to water, even though they had more than enough spots for all of them. I think they would feed 4-5 at a time and let the others go.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

frogface said:


> Are all of the eggs in the first clutch losing shape or are they changing because they are developing?
> 
> My pums would lay 3 clutches. Then, when they developed into tads, they seemed to take only a few of them to water, even though they had more than enough spots for all of them. I think they would feed 4-5 at a time and let the others go.


It appears they are developing! Last night when I checked on them, it looked like more progress had been made. One egg had a tad pretty much completely out and another about 3/4 out. The other 3 arent as far along and hard to tell if they will follow the same way. 

Will the male know when to scoop these guys up and bring them to water? I am new to pumilio tad rearing, as stated before. I am excited to see the progress and things seemingly moving in the right direction.........

....I am also surprised only 1 person has commented on this after over 75 views....


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

some of us are learning from your observations...and at this point don't have suggestions because along with you...we don't know!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

With pums, it's the females that pick up the babies. At least it was with my El Dorados. They should know exactly what to do. I'd advise that you not mess with them at all. If the eggs or tads are disturbed, the parents might abandon them. I saw that happen in my own tank.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

frogface said:


> With pums, it's the females that pick up the babies. At least it was with my El Dorados. They should know exactly what to do. I'd advise that you not mess with them at all. If the eggs or tads are disturbed, the parents might abandon them. I saw that happen in my own tank.



Thank you for the correction. Hopefully the mother* will have no issue and know what to do. And the only disturbing I would say has happened, is misting the tank 1-2 times daily (including the area the clutch is in) and feeding normally. Would misting cause them to abandon them? Or are you referring more to moving them or the plant around or something more drastic?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm talking about moving them. Don't move the eggs to look at them and try to put them back, or anything like that. And when the tads are deposited, leave them whereever mom puts them. Don't try to find a better place for them or move things around so you can see them better.

Not that you would do those things but just making sure.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

frogface said:


> I'm talking about moving them. Don't move the eggs to look at them and try to put them back, or anything like that. And when the tads are deposited, leave them whereever mom puts them. Don't try to find a better place for them or move things around so you can see them better.
> 
> Not that you would do those things but just making sure.


As long as misting = good, and moving = bad......I should be ok!


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## SCS1014 (Feb 16, 2010)

I've only ever bred Azureus and understand it is a totally different frog but I thought the eggs aren't aupposed to be sitting in water and not until they are hatched tadpoles. I have only ever let the parents raise one egg of the own so I'm not sure of anything other than the incubation method.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

SCS1014 said:


> I've only ever bred Azureus and understand it is a totally different frog but I thought the eggs aren't aupposed to be sitting in water and not until they are hatched tadpoles. I have only ever let the parents raise one egg of the own so I'm not sure of anything other than the incubation method.


That isnt water they are sitting in (if you are referring to my pictures of the clutch). Its the clear jelly like stuff the female lays with the clutch of eggs to hold them in place and protect them. Im guessing there is some nutritional value in it as well, but I am nowhere near an expert on the topic. Hopefully thats what you were talking about. 

Thanks for the comment!


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

According to my observations, I agree 100% with Frogface.


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## SCS1014 (Feb 16, 2010)

Dart_Man said:


> That isnt water they are sitting in (if you are referring to my pictures of the clutch). Its the clear jelly like stuff the female lays with the clutch of eggs to hold them in place and protect them. Im guessing there is some nutritional value in it as well, but I am nowhere near an expert on the topic. Hopefully thats what you were talking about.
> 
> Thanks for the comment!


Haha I know. I thought the eggs were floating in built-up water inside of the bromeliad.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

SCS1014 said:


> Haha I know. I thought the eggs were floating in built-up water inside of the bromeliad.


Oh you are referencing the comment I made about the one clutch sliding down the leaf into the water of the brom. Yeah, I dont want to go poking around in there and disturb anything, but I think that clutch may not be good due to it sliding into the water before they were ready. Only time will tell.... Hoping for some extra froglets!


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Some of those eggs were good, some weren't. You're correct that many (thought not all species) of dart frog eggs turn dark grey or black when fertilized, but pumilio eggs generally start off more cream/ light grey and then darken as they develop into tadpoles. You'll see the good eggs elongate and a ridge/ line will become visible (that's the spine forming). Bad eggs will just spread out and dissolve sort of. Developing embryos will start to spin around within the egg sac before they hatch.
The best advice I can give you is ignore them (I know it's hard, but try not to act differently with the eggs). If you misted the tank before, keep doing it, but don't mist at the eggs specifically (the male will come and keep them moist). Make sure there are available deposition sites and the female will get them when they are ready. They will seriously do all the work, so just sit back and enjoy watching their parenting behavior.
Congrats on the eggs and best of luck, it wouldn't surprise me if you find some froglets in a few months- so get the springtail cultures going!
Bryan


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

......And an update. 2 tads completely out of their eggs and moving around. 1 of the remaining eggs has dissolved in the past few days, while 2 still could possibly be developing. The female seems to be hanging out watching them most of the day too  I also swear I saw her checking out depositing sites in the brom close by. Hopefully she is just planning ahead! I keep waiting to come home from work expecting them to be transporting or already moved. 

Exciting stuff!

Stay tuned.....


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

Its been about 3 weeks since my last post showing the tad pics on the leaf. Only the 2 tads ever hatched out of their eggs, the others didnt end up developing unfortunately. Since then, the 2 tads are gone, 1 one day, the second a day or 2 later. I have NO IDEA where they were transported to which I am a little alarmed about. I am beginning to question if they are even alive still or if it was a failed transport to water. I have searched pretty heavily and feel like there are only so many spots they could be. Now i am questioning if there wasnt enough water deposits and that maybe they were unsuccessful because of that reason. I know the tads are so super small and they shouldnt require much water at all, but I still feel I would be able to find them if they were still indeed alive somewhere. I think I need to add more water to the broms and/or more film canisters (both vert with water, and horizontal for clutches), but maybe I am just being paranoid.

Anyone have any suggestions from experience if they think they are indeed alive and developing somewhere, or if maybe they didnt make it? 










Unfortunately, this is the only pic I have showing the whole viv, and it is a few months old, so doesnt show the current size of the broms or the film canister on the bottom right side wall. Most broms have multiple pools in them, but none are very large.

Any voice of experience would be great.

Thanks


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Nice tank! 

Seriously, you need to leave those frogs alone and let them take care of things their own way. If you mess around too much in there the parents might abandon the tads. Just let them do their thing and in a few months, you'll find beautiful little froglets hopping around in there


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Just out of curiosity...if the parents are tending to their tads/froglets---do they also continue to lay eggs--or are they devoted to the one population??


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

frogface said:


> Nice tank!
> 
> Seriously, you need to leave those frogs alone and let them take care of things their own way. If you mess around too much in there the parents might abandon the tads. Just let them do their thing and in a few months, you'll find beautiful little froglets hopping around in there


Ok ok I will try to relax, it is just exciting and suspenseful! My main concern was just if anyone thought there was enough water in there or not. I was thinking it was my fault that I didnt give enough deposit sites and may have caused the tads to dry out and die. 

You dont seem to think so im guessing? 

Thanks for the comment and compliment too


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

Judy S said:


> Just out of curiosity...if the parents are tending to their tads/froglets---do they also continue to lay eggs--or are they devoted to the one population??


I dont have a complete answer to that, but I do hear calling all the time still and just found a clutch today (looks like only 1 egg tho). So, I dont know if that means the tads are gone or that they can keep up with both....we will see!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Dart_Man said:


> Ok ok I will try to relax, it is just exciting and suspenseful! My main concern was just if anyone thought there was enough water in there or not. I was thinking it was my fault that I didnt give enough deposit sites and may have caused the tads to dry out and die.
> 
> You dont seem to think so im guessing?
> 
> Thanks for the comment and compliment too


If you're worried about water, you could stick in some film canisters or other small containers. Do it quietly


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

NIce tank and good luck with the tads.


as stated above, the more you dig your nose into the tank the more it will stress the animals and lessen the chance for another healty clutch.


even if its hard to do so (I know it myself) you should just let them do all the work, and enjoy the outcome later.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

Coming up on the 2 month mark in about a week or so. I have not seen anything indicating the tads are developing somewhere, but I have been restraining myself from poking around too much as I dont want to disturb the frogs from doing their job. I am really hoping that I see 2 young froglets in the next 2 weeks! Cross your fingers and stay tuned for updates


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

Dart_Man said:


> That isnt water they are sitting in (if you are referring to my pictures of the clutch). Its the clear jelly like stuff the female lays with the clutch of eggs to hold them in place and protect them. Im guessing there is some nutritional value in it as well, but I am nowhere near an expert on the topic. Hopefully thats what you were talking about.
> 
> Thanks for the comment!


So after about 3 1/2 months, I was beginning to lose hope for the little guys to make it. I haven't seen anything and figured it's been plenty of time for development. I haven't really poked around much at all (other than taking a few small cuttings for a new tank 2 weeks ago) but I was nervous there wasn't enough water depositing sites available originally. 

Just 3 days ago, my friends looking at the viv and asks"what's that?" pointing at a brom axle. We both lean over to get a closer look, and at the same time see a very mature tad/froglet


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

So after about 3 1/2 months, I was beginning to lose hope for the little guys to make it. I haven't seen anything and figured it's been plenty of time for development. I haven't really poked around much at all (other than taking a few small cuttings for a new tank 2 weeks ago) but I was nervous there wasn't enough water depositing sites available originally. 

Just 3 days ago, my friend is looking at the viv and asks"what's that?" pointing at a brom axle. We both lean over to get a closer look, and at the same time see a very mature tad/froglet turn and swim down deeper. I could not believe it, what a great feeling! It already had all 4 legs and a face, but still no color other than grey and a large tail still. 

Just crossing my fingers all goes well as he tries to climb out of the water. I'm expecting him to be on land within 2-3 weeks as long as there are no issues. Hopefully taking those few cuttings didn't disturb the parents and they are still feeding plenty. I question how easy it can climb out of the water cuz it's pretty steep too. Anyone see froglets have issues climbing out of the water? Also hope the second tad is developing somewhere too! 


I'm super excited as this will be my first froglet!! 


Can someone tell me what a typical time frame for metamorphosis is for pumilios? I thought it was more like 60-75 days once hatched from egg. This has been over 90 days already, not counting the 2 weeks to hatch frog egg. 

Any info can help. Thanks!

Stay tuned for pics and updates....


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Lol bro, stop worrying so much about if the froglet will make it out. Everything is gonna be ok. Take a Valium and let mother nature do her job! If its meant to be it will work out. If not, they will lay more eggs and try it all over again. Eventually you're gonna have more froglets than you know what to do with. From the sound of it, if you can keep calm it will be sooner rather than later. Humans aren't around in the wild to make sure broms aren't too steep and they seem to breed just fine there. Good luck buddy! CALM DOWN!!!


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## punctata (Jan 31, 2011)

Like ^^^^ It was said above. Relax. lol  And enjoy them as they produce more frogs for you to enjoy.


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