# Conversion from aquarium to vivarium



## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Soon I will start converting an aquarium into a paludarium. There will be no sliding windows at the front and ventilation, because I don't like this. Disruptive when looking in.










The ventilation will be regulated in the 30 cm high light box by means of a number of fans, blowing both in and out.










4 fans are placed against the rear of the light cover, which blow gently towards the front window screen. If this is not enough, I will place another 3 fans above the windshield to keep the window clean from condensation.

2 fans are placed in the top of the cover to suck out warm air from the paludarium should the temperature become too high. This is controlled by a computer.









The lighting will consist of a Daytime LED bar of 1 meter, of which 2 rows (7000k) and 1 row (5000k). With a 36w power supply. In total 4700 lumens. This lighting is controlled with a TC420 controller to simulate sunrise and sunset.














Since LED lighting does not give off much heat, I will equip the water stream that flows past the front window screen with an Eheim 2373 pump with built-in heating.


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## gzollinger (Aug 22, 2016)

Sounds like you are off to a nice start. Cant wait to see this progress!


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

How big is the aquarium that you are planning to convert and how much water will the water feature contain? From previous aquarium experience those 23xx pumps are pretty powerful and create quite a current, even on their lowest setting.....


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

SimonL said:


> How big is the aquarium that you are planning to convert and how much water will the water feature contain? From previous aquarium experience those 23xx pumps are pretty powerful and create quite a current, even on their lowest setting.....


The total content is 400L or 0.4 m3.
The amount of water that will be placed in it is 25L, so in this case 5 cm high. I agree that this is relatively little water for such a hefty pump. But I have now extensively tested it by running the pump at half power, and placing an extra Eheim tap that is half open between the supply hose. This creates a very calm water displacement.
Another possibility could be to create an extra 'waterfall' by means of a T-piece. Since my choice fell on the Phyllobates terribilis, I would rather have more ground surface than the need for even more water.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I don't like paludaria for dart frogs at all, but P. terribilis, being prone to foot rot, may not be the best choice. With the fans you are proposing, you might be able to keep humidity lower than the 90%+ that most paludaria run at (60% to 80% is best for the frogs), but unless you can keep the substrate completely drained all of the time, I would not put terribilis in this type of tank. 

Mark


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> I don't like paludaria for dart frogs at all...


Explain yourself. Why do you think a paludarium is not suitable for poison dart frogs? So what do you keep poison dart frogs in?



Encyclia said:


> With the fans you are proposing, you might be able to keep humidity lower than the 90%+ that most paludaria run at (60% to 80% is best for the frogs), but unless you can keep the substrate completely drained all of the time,


I will demonstrate that I can indeed get the humidity to 80%.
It will not be a swimming pool, the water is only intended to increase the humidity. The entire land area will be completely drained. In addition, there will be boulders on which the poison frogs can sit to dry.

Info:
These poison frogs thrive in the rainforests of the Amazonian lowlands. This is an extremely humid region that receives up to 5 m of rain per year and a minimum of 1.25 m. The area they inhabit is characterized by a hilly landscape, altitudes ranging from 100 to 200 m, and covered with areas of wet gravel and small saplings and relatively little leaf debris. They are land animals that live on the forest floor, but they depend on fresh water to support their young. (Bolívar and Lötters, 2004; Stewart, 2010)


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sure  I don't think paludaria are good for dart frogs because 1) our tanks are already very small compared to the wild - water features just take away surface area that the dart frogs can use 2) it makes the humidity difficult to keep low enough that the frogs can use evaporative cooling and 3) the water makes it very difficult to keep the substrate well-drained and dry. Most of us use standing water in the drainage layer to increase and buffer humidity. An open water area is different, however. Yes, these animals live in environments that receive a lot of rain and contain moving water. However, it is not 100% humidity all the time even in areas that receive the most rainfall. Also, in a natural environment, the frogs can seek out microclimates where the humidity and temperature are more comfortable for them. Even the largest of our vivariums don't give the frogs the same opportunity to seek out specific conditions. In tanks with open water, this is even worse because the evaporation is occurring so rapidly that the air is mostly saturated in most places in the tank (you say that you can manage this with fans, but it is a lot easier if you just don't have the open water). Again, you are correct that open water is present in their natural environment, but they don't live _right_ next to the water all the time in nature. They need it to breed, but otherwise dart frogs don't hang out immediately next to water except for a few species (of which Terribilis are not one). Even in a large tank like yours, you are essentially forcing the frogs to live in conditions similar to the 1 or 2 feet closest to a stream. That is not where they live in the wild, but you are giving them no choice. The whole tank consists of conditions that would be found right next to a stream, not in the leaf litter-covered forest next to the stream which is where most dart frogs spend the majority of their lives. 

Paludariums for dart frogs are mostly because their owners think they look cool, not because they reflect the conditions that are best for the frogs. You can make whatever decision you want to, but my purpose in writing this (again) is for anyone else out there that is thinking about making a paludarium for dart frogs. There are better husbandry practices available and those are what are best for our frogs.

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I 100% agree with @Encyclia .

Dart frogs are best kept in vivariums with no water feauture (s) lot's of leaflitter and dry substrate. Terribilis well are known for having the issue Mark described. So tbh for every species of dart frogs aside from Ameerega, it's highly recommended not to have any waterfeature.

If you look at footage of Terribilis in situ, you will find that most are found in dense planted areas with a lot of leaflitter. Their habitat knows a lot of rain and humidity but the forestfloor always dries fast. 

My pair of Terribilis also spend most time of the day in the dryer parts of their tank and on top of the leaflitter. Same story for the offspring..



That aside, 
I'm looking forward to see you build progress, looks like you are doing your research on the technical stuff. Waterfeatures sometimes can be done correctly, but it's really really difficult to do this correct without it beeing a hazard for the frogs.

Greets,
Tijl


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Sure  I don't think paludaria are good for dart frogs because 1) our tanks are already very small compared to the wild - water features just take away surface area that the dart frogs can use 2) it makes the humidity difficult to keep low enough that the frogs can use evaporative cooling and 3) the water makes it very difficult to keep the substrate well-drained and dry. Most of us use standing water in the drainage layer to increase and buffer humidity. An open water area is different, however. Yes, these animals live in environments that receive a lot of rain and contain moving water. However, it is not 100% humidity all the time even in areas that receive the most rainfall. Also, in a natural environment, the frogs can seek out microclimates where the humidity and temperature are more comfortable for them. Even the largest of our vivariums don't give the frogs the same opportunity to seek out specific conditions. In tanks with open water, this is even worse because the evaporation is occurring so rapidly that the air is mostly saturated in most places in the tank (you say that you can manage this with fans, but it is a lot easier if you just don't have the open water). Again, you are correct that open water is present in their natural environment, but they don't live _right_ next to the water all the time in nature. They need it to breed, but otherwise dart frogs don't hang out immediately next to water except for a few species (of which Terribilis are not one). Even in a large tank like yours, you are essentially forcing the frogs to live in conditions similar to the 1 or 2 feet closest to a stream. That is not where they live in the wild, but you are giving them no choice. The whole tank consists of conditions that would be found right next to a stream, not in the leaf litter-covered forest next to the stream which is where most dart frogs spend the majority of their lives.
> 
> Paludariums for dart frogs are mostly because their owners think they look cool, not because they reflect the conditions that are best for the frogs. You can make whatever decision you want to, but my purpose in writing this (again) is for anyone else out there that is thinking about making a paludarium for dart frogs. There are better husbandry practices available and those are what are best for our frogs.
> 
> Mark


Thank you very much for your comprehensive answer. You convinced me to get off a water section. Instead of the larger water feature, I will make a small edge on the windscreen side to collect the excess spray water so that I can siphon off any excess water.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Tijl said:


> I 100% agree with @Encyclia .
> 
> Dart frogs are best kept in vivariums with no water feauture (s) lot's of leaflitter and dry substrate. Terribilis well are known for having the issue Mark described. So tbh for every species of dart frogs aside from Ameerega, it's highly recommended not to have any waterfeature.
> 
> ...


You both convinced me to keep the water part out. I'm going to think about a different setup.

Thank you.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

If it's of any help, I'll post a link to a recent buildreport of mine. Maybe it might help you to show what I keep in mind when setting up a vivarium. (Mine was more on a budget than yours and way less worked out btw 😅)









70x50x65cm Vivarium Build.


Hello, I wanted to share the first vivarium I scaped in a rack system that contains 4x 70x50x65. I already finished and planted 2 out of the 4 tanks in total and have not yet started to work on the other 2. That is probably something I will start next year.. In this topic I wanted to focus on...




www.dendroboard.com





I'm currently setting up a new tank aswell! Scaping vivariums is probably what I like best about the hobby, yet something you can't do every day haha.. So have fun and enjoy your build! I look forward to see your progress on your reworked aquarium.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Tijl said:


> If it's of any help, I'll post a link to a recent buildreport of mine. Maybe it might help you to show what I keep in mind when setting up a vivarium. (Mine was more on a budget than yours and way less worked out btw 😅)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great Tijl, your building link, I can certainly get interesting information from it. But don't think it will be ready next month. I see a mountain of work coming before that.

I've seen you an expert in scapen at your award-winning vivarium last year!

Thanks again for the info


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

First phase:

The removal of the old 8 cm high hard plastic light box, where you cannot reach the sealant with a knife because it is on the glass edge. Cut and break piece by piece


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

That's a difficult job, Robru. Such a hassle! What I do when I want to remove molding like that is to use a knife like in this link. Don't know if you have access to this kind of tool where you are. It's hard to see in the picture, but the blade of the knife can be extended far out of the handle and it has some flexibility to it so you can get it along the glass an up into the molding and still have room for your fingers on the knife handle. It is long enough to go up under the molding all the way on both sides and I have been able to pull the molding off all in one piece. Again, maybe you don't access to the tools and maybe your tank is designed differently, but once I cut the attachment of the silicone on both sides of the glass, I can pull the molding off because the little bit of silicone on top is not enough to resist me  Maybe that could work?

Mark

Edited because at first it sounded like I was telling Robru that they weren't doing a good job  The job is being done great, but maybe I can save Robru some time!


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> That's a difficult job, Robru. Such a hassle! What I do when I want to remove molding like that is to use a knife like in this link. Don't know if you have access to this kind of tool where you are. It's hard to see in the picture, but the blade of the knife can be extended far out of the handle and it has some flexibility to it so you can get it along the glass an up into the molding and still have room for your fingers on the knife handle. It is long enough to go up under the molding all the way on both sides and I have been able to pull the molding off all in one piece. Again, maybe you don't access to the tools and maybe your tank is designed differently, but once I cut the attachment of the silicone on both sides of the glass, I can pull the molding off because the little bit of silicone on top is not enough to resist me  Maybe that could work?
> 
> Mark
> 
> Edited because at first it sounded like I was telling Robru that they weren't doing a good job  The job is being done great, but maybe I can save Robru some time!


Thank you for your tip, Mark.
In the Netherlands, these hobby blades are common. Everyone has one in the kitchen drawer.









The main problem with removing the old cover was that the sealant was on top of the glass rim. So it was a hassle to remove the cover. He's off now after several hours work. I can now get rid of the sealant residue from the windows and then start cleaning.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Robru said:


> Thank you for your tip, Mark.
> In the Netherlands, these hobby blades are common. Everyone has one in the kitchen drawer.
> 
> View attachment 296738
> ...


That's the one  Glad you got it off, anyway. 

Mark


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> That's the one  Glad you got it off, anyway.
> 
> Mark


The knife I use is from the Olfa brand and is made in the U.S.
Olfa Products OlfaProducts.com
19011 Road 196
Strathmore, CA 93267
800-369-4115


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

2nd stage

Because I have not yet received all the materials to build the light box in connection with the Covid lockdown, I will now start painting and restyling the furniture on which the vivarium will be placed. I already have the color in my head, that will be: Perfect Finish blackboard paint Black. Since the furniture consists of 12 panels, I will be working on that for the time being. Prime and paint several times


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Have you considered using back plastic foil (zwarte folie) instead of paint, might save you a lot of time?

Also how will you be providing access into the tank? You mentioned earlier that you didn’t want doors at the front. Will you have a way of feeding and performing maintenance without completely removing the light box?


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

SimonL said:


> Have you considered using back plastic foil (zwarte folie) instead of paint, might save you a lot of time


Yes, I did indeed look at that, but it became very expensive with good quality foil.



SimonL said:


> Also how will you be providing access into the tank? You mentioned earlier that you didn’t want doors at the front. Will you have a way of feeding and performing maintenance without completely removing the light box?


Because I am so stubborn not to install sliding windows, I build the hood in such a way that I can access everything neatly


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Because I now have to wait for the furniture panels to dry, I immediately painted the first layer on three sides of the viavarium. Still a few pieces missed with the silicone remover I see, but that will be fine.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

The furniture and the 3 outer walls of the vivarium are ready. I am now going to focus on the lighting. I am now reading up on plant growth, and in addition to the main lighting of a meter of LED (2 x strip of 7000K and 1 strip of 5000K), 2 double LED strips in the colors red and blue are also being added. Red for the flowering of the plants, and blue for the growth of the plants.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Keep in mind it's the frogs you are building your enclosure for and they might not like the very bright lights unlike your plants.

There are a lot of species that hide from it.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Tijl said:


> Keep in mind it's the frogs you are building your enclosure for and they might not like the very bright lights unlike your plants.
> 
> There are a lot of species that hide from it.


Thanks for your extra info Tijl. I had already thought about this myself, and once there are poison dart frogs in it, I will set the lighting to max 30%.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Robru said:


> Thanks for your extra info Tijl. I had already thought about this myself, and once there are poison dart frogs in it, I will set the lighting to max 30%.
> 
> View attachment 296869


Awesome, 
In the future it would be helpfull to play with the settings and see how to frogs respond to it. Feel free to share this experience


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Tijl said:


> Awesome,
> In the future it would be helpfull to play with the settings and see how to frogs respond to it. Feel free to share this experience


I am thinking about, if it is fully focused with plants, to increase the values so that the plants will catch on better. The first few months, no frogs will come in yet, so that I can fine-tune the temperature and humidity during that time.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Heating:

Because the LED lighting emits very little heat, I am going to lay a 10 meter long heating cable (100 W) over the entire floor under the LECA substrate, connected to a thermostat.

Incidentally, it is not the intention that this heating is always on, but it will certainly prove its worth in winter.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

FWIW I experimented with a 50W version of the same cable when building my tank. Whilst it did raise the temperature in the tank fairly quickly, ultimately all it did was dry out the substrate and lower the humidity too much. The general advice I received on dendroboard was not to use it so I removed it before completing the build.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

SimonL said:


> FWIW I experimented with a 50W version of the same cable when building my tank. Whilst it did raise the temperature in the tank fairly quickly, ultimately all it did was dry out the substrate and lower the humidity too much. The general advice I received on dendroboard was not to use it so I removed it before completing the build.


I will keep this in mind in my decision.
On the other hand, you can of course also spray more often if the humidity becomes too low.

Then how did you solve it to get a higher temperature, Simon?


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

The ambient temperature in the room is 22 during the day. I’m hoping this will be enough warmth during the winter - it’s a new build so i don’t have any frogs in there yet. In the spring/summer I have no problems with getting higher temperatures in the room  the other two smaller vivariums that I have seem ok with 22, and it’s possibly slightly warmer inside the tank anyway. 

I have considered installing some heat strips underneath the front vent, but I’m not sure if they would make too much of a difference

Here’s the thread I discussed it in Hiding a heat cable


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

SimonL said:


> The ambient temperature in the room is 22 during the day. I’m hoping this will be enough warmth during the winter - it’s a new build so i don’t have any frogs in there yet. In the spring/summer I have no problems with getting higher temperatures in the room  the other two smaller vivariums that I have seem ok with 22, and it’s possibly slightly warmer inside the tank anyway.
> 
> I have considered installing some heat strips underneath the front vent, but I’m not sure if they would make too much of a difference
> 
> Here’s the thread I discussed it in Hiding a heat cable


I have read your topic about the heater cable with a lot of interest. Since I do not use ventilation in the front window, I will have to find a solution to add more heat to the vivarium. In my house it is about 21C in the winter, that does not seem enough to me. I still intend to mount the heater cable on the bottom plate anyway, so I can always decide later whether or not to use it. Better shy than unashamed.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

I have decided that I am going to mount the heater cable at the bottom of the window. Since the vivarium does not rest directly with the bottom pane on the furniture, but 1 inch above it. So there is enough space for the heater cable and ventilation. Again, it will only be used in winter when the required temperature is really not met.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Robru said:


> I have read your topic about the heater cable with a lot of interest. Since I do not use ventilation in the front window, I will have to find a solution to add more heat to the vivarium. In my house it is about 21C in the winter, that does not seem enough to me. I still intend to mount the heater cable on the bottom plate anyway, so I can always decide later whether or not to use it. Better shy than unashamed.


Normaly this will do. My room is also 21, the light give enough extra warmt during winter


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Tijl said:


> Normaly this will do. My room is also 21, the light give enough extra warmt during winter


Tijl, do you also use spots that naturally generate much more heat than LEDs.

I measured the temperature increase when all LED fixtures are on. This resulted in an increase of 1.1C in the vivarium, which now only contains the back wall and the side walls.

How much temperature increase do you expect if the vivarium is completely furnished with a false bottom, substrate and plants?

If you can also gain a few degrees here, I don't have to worry about extra heating ...

Thank you.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I get a rise of 2-3°c during the day from the led's.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Today we started making the false bottom. This bottom will rest on several 1 inch high supports. The space below will be filled with hydro grains. We are now waiting for the shipment that includes the hydro fleece.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Looking good!


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

What do you think? Seal the edges of the false bottom all around or fill the cracks with something else?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Not sure of the exact kind of cracks you are talking about, but you could take an idea from the cracked cork mosaic method and wet some dead sphagnum moss and cram it into the gaps real tight. That method actually lasts a long time when used for cracked cork mosaic backgrounds. Really nice looking tank, too!

Mark


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Not sure of the exact kind of cracks you are talking about


Sorry Mark, I meant the four edges around the false bottom.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Ah, right. Sorry, I misread it. You were clear  I always put silicone all the way around my false bottoms so that none of the substrate can get down to the drainage layer. It works well for me. Keep up the good work!

Mark


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Ah, right. Sorry, I misread it. You were clear  I always put silicone all the way around my false bottoms so that none of the substrate can get down to the drainage layer. It works well for me. Keep up the good work!


Thank for your anwser. Do you also put sealant between the edge at the front of the window of the false bottom?
Doesn't the sealant on the windscreen look ugly over time due to, for example, algae or discoloration of the sealant? Or do I think too difficult ...


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

You are correct. If you are sloppy, it can look pretty bad at the front. This doesn't matter to me, though, because I paint the front of all of my display tanks with black craft paint. Problem solved  It is much more important to me that the tank function correctly (making sure the layers stay separate is part of this functioning) than it is to have it look perfect. Other folk may have different priorities, though. 

Mark


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> You are correct. If you are sloppy, it can look pretty bad at the front. This doesn't matter to me, though, because I paint the front of all of my display tanks with black craft paint. Problem solved  It is much more important to me that the tank function correctly (making sure the layers stay separate is part of this functioning) than it is to have it look perfect. Other folk may have different priorities, though.
> 
> Mark


Your solution of making an extra edge black appeals to me. Thank you for this advice  

I also do not have to look at the layer of substrate in particular.
I am currently researching which components I am going to add to the substrate mix. I already own perlite, Fernwood tree fiber substrate, fine charcoal, fine 2-8mm and coarse 12-10mm orchid bark and spaghnum moss.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sounds like you are close to having the ingredients to make ABG (Atlanta Botanical Garden) mix. Here is an interesting thread about ABG mix. I have used it before and it was great.

Mark


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Sounds like you are close to having the ingredients to make ABG (Atlanta Botanical Garden) mix. Here is an interesting thread about ABG mix. I have used it before and it was great.
> 
> Mark


That's a very interesting topic Mark. I now know what I still miss; peat moss. And because I'm going to inoculate the substrate with springtails and isopods, add some fine leaf litter to the substrate. I think I'm pretty much in the right direction this way.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Peat moss is very easy and cheap to come by here. I assume it would be the same for you. It's usually the tree fern fiber that's hard to get and you already have it 

Mark


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Peat moss is very easy and cheap to come by here. I assume it would be the same for you. It's usually the tree fern fiber that's hard to get and you already have it
> 
> Mark


Yes, Peat moss is also easy to get here. Looking for a tree fern fiber point of sale here was more difficult than obtaining it. I found an orchid grower in Belgium who does business with Fernwood NZ.

Acadian Supply, Inc. is the importer of Fernwood in de U.S.

*Acadian Supply, Inc.*
Savannah, GA
770-271-0859
[email protected]
acadiansupply.com/products/tree-fern/


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Nice, Robru. That stuff looks pretty flexible. Is it soft? The old kind of tree fern fibers was very rigid and served to aerate and resist compression in ABG. If this is a soft material, I might increase the amount of charcoal you add to the mixture to compensate. This is just a guess, though. I don't think anyone knows how the new kind of tree fern will behave over long periods of time.

Mark


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Nice, Robru. That stuff looks pretty flexible. Is it soft? The old kind of tree fern fibers was very rigid and served to aerate and resist compression in ABG. If this is a soft material, I might increase the amount of charcoal you add to the mixture to compensate. This is just a guess, though. I don't think anyone knows how the new kind of tree fern will behave over long periods of time.
> 
> Mark


My order will arrive next week, so I can tell you more about it. But based on the photo material that I have seen, it will certainly not be stiff.

Fernwood Soft Tropical Terrarium Substrate is made from the fibrous stem of the kuripaka, a native New Zealand tree fern.

Our product is unique in that:

It has the ability to hold moisture without becoming waterlogged.

It is slow to compost.
It’s smell and texture encourage natural burrowing.
It absorbs waste and diminishes odours.
Suitable for Salamanders, Frogs and burrowing / digging reptiles and others.
All Fernwood Products are manufactured from New Zealand Tree Fern which is sustainably harvested from privately owned forests.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Today I made a first design for the hood for the three LED fixtures, fans and ventilation slots. I use petrol mesh to seal the ventilation slots.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Nice, Robru. That stuff looks pretty flexible. Is it soft?


Today I received the tree fern fiber from Fernwood. It is indeed soft in texture. I am also going to add the other components for AGB, otherwise it will be a costly story to divide it purely 2 inches over the bottom.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

There are already three layers of primer all around the hood. I am now waiting for the order of 8 mm cast acrylic sheets (tension-free) so that I can first continue with the inside. The plexiglass becomes the lid in the hood where, among other things, the 4 sprinklers for the sprinkler installation will be mounted. The outside of the hood is the last turn.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Be careful with that sprinkler system, I’m not sure if that coppery color is just a finish on top of say stainless steel. But if it has any copper in it, I know that minuscule amounts of leached copper will kill cherry shrimp, not sure about frogs, but it will definitely also kill moss.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Be careful with that sprinkler system, I’m not sure if that coppery color is just a finish on top of say stainless steel. But if it has any copper in it, I know that minuscule amounts of leached copper will kill cherry shrimp, not sure about frogs, but it will definitely also kill moss.


Thank you for warning. I will check with the supplier, but rather I think it is because of the photo quality that it appears that copper is used in the parts. Hopefully below a better picture of the nozzle.










Nozzle, 6 mm. connection, fully adjustable nozzle, with spray angle of 80 degrees, all plastic, very easy to clean. including glass feedthrough.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I see now, it's black plastic with an odd sheen. That should work fine.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> I see now, it's black plastic with an odd sheen. That should work fine.


Thank you


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Today I prepared the 8 mm plexiglass with the first 2 fans, holes for the nozzles and the 2 smaller plexiglass parts for when I want to quickly put something in the tank. All parts can be removed easily and quickly if I need more space to work.

This weekend I will finish the hood further, mount supports for the plexiglass and lighting and another 4 fans that will be mounted under the plexiglass for the internal air circulation.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

The basis is there in my opinion. The plants have now been in it for a week. Because I like to see the plants grow, I chose baby plants. And after planting I removed all the wood, which I later place again when the plants are bigger. The lighting is now set to 80% to let the plants start equally well. Later I place marcgrave, broms and orchids.

The humidity is between 80 and 90% during the day, 100% at night. Temperature is now between 71 - 77 F. I expect as the microclimate develops better the temperature will rise.

The leaf litters are still minimal to prevent me from covering the small plants, when the plants are a bit larger I have a better overview.



















*Plants added:*


Peperomia Hope
Peperomia caperata ‘Red Luna’
Stromanthe sanguinea
Calathea Medallion
Calathea lancifolia ‘Insigne’
Philodendron Scandens
Philodendron Birkin
Fittonia verschaffeltii
Pilea involucrata ‘Moon Valley’
Begonia Rex Boweri
Begonia Maculata ‘Wightii’
Aglanonema 'Pink Princess'
Macodes Petola Jewel Orchid


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

*Added:*


Alocasia 'Silver Dragon'
Alocasia 'Blue Velvet'
Peperomia Pepperspot
Asparagus Setaceus Plumoses
Ficus quercifolia
Marcgravia sintenisii
Marcgravia 'Peru'
Solanum sp. 'Ecuador'
Fittonia albivenis verschaffeltii 'Mini Red'
Fittonia albivenis verschaffeltii 'More Red'
Fittonia verschaffeltii 'Lemon'


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Looking good! And thanks for making me aware of your plant supplier in the photos  wasn’t aware of that company and it looks like they have a nice selection


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Because the climate has improved inside, the temperature is now 75.2F during the day and the humidity is between 80-85%. The plants grow very well with the exception of the Begonia bowerii, which melted last week, but under the old leaves has a lot of production of new leaves.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Robru said:


> Because the climate has improved inside, the temperature is now 75.2F during the day and the humidity is between 80-85%. The plants grow very well with the exception of the Begonia bowerii, which melted last week, but under the old leaves has a lot of production of new leaves.
> 
> View attachment 298054
> 
> View attachment 298055


I’m guessing that’s a hygrometer in that photo? I’m not sure but if it is, are you going to use it in the final project?


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

FroggerFrog said:


> I’m guessing that’s a hygrometer in that photo? I’m not sure but if it is, are you going to use it in the final project?


That's correct. I use 2 types of hygrometers, one digital and one analog. Both indicate the same values. When I start spraying I remove the hygrometer to prevent water from entering.
I think that if the humidity remains constant after a few months, I will only place the hygrometer sporadically as an extra check.

Why your question? Am I doing something wrong?


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Robru said:


> That's correct. I use 2 types of hygrometers, one digital and one analog. Both indicate the same values. When I start spraying I remove the hygrometer to prevent water from entering.
> I think that if the humidity remains constant after a few months, I will only place the hygrometer sporadically as an extra check.
> 
> Why your question? Am I doing something wrong?


Hydrometers are notorious for breaking down completely if water gets into the probe. Unless if you remove it before every misting, then you have to try not to spray it which is hard if you’re trying to get, lets say a plant, behind it.

There are some alternatives but it seems like you have a plan so I won’t bother you.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

FroggerFrog said:


> Hydrometers are notorious for breaking down completely if water gets into the probe. Unless if you remove it before every misting, then you have to try not to spray it which is hard if you’re trying to get, lets say a plant, behind it.
> 
> There are some alternatives but it seems like you have a plan so I won’t bother you.


Thank you for your response. As you can read I do what you suggest, so remove before every misting.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Hi Robru, is that an elastopur/tempex background? I notice that it’s not wet all the way up and the elastopur doesn’t retain water as well as tree fern backgrounds - I have the same at present, and have added some tree fern stumps yesterday like you have in an attempt to improve this. The humidity in the tank itself is not a problem, as the substrate/plants are retaining plenty of moisture. Any thoughts?


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

SimonL said:


> Hi Robru, is that an elastopur/tempex background? I notice that it’s not wet all the way up and the elastopur doesn’t retain water as well as tree fern backgrounds - I have the same at present, and have added some tree fern stumps yesterday like you have in an attempt to improve this. The humidity in the tank itself is not a problem, as the substrate/plants are retaining plenty of moisture. Any thoughts?


Hi Simon, that's right. I use styrofoam plates with Elastopur with peat moss on top. I will give some extra explanation why the top part is and stays dry.
At the moment I only have plants on the bottom, not yet brons and orchids on higher parts, so I don't water the top yet. I still mist by hand, next month the mist installation will arrive which can easily reach the top part of the walls.
the bottom part, which I spray twice a day, always stays moist. Furthermore, it is now true for me that the lighting is very high to get a neat growth, due to the heat development the walls will also dry a little faster. In addition, I have 4 fans running non-stop in the tank that will also dry the walls extra.
I think that if you spray automatically, you should aim the nozzles more towards the walls, or possibly place extra nozzles.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Robru said:


> Hi Simon, that's right. I use styrofoam plates with Elastopur with peat moss on top. I will give some extra explanation why the top part is and stays dry.
> At the moment I only have plants on the bottom, not yet brons and orchids on higher parts, so I don't water the top yet. I still mist by hand, next month the mist installation will arrive which can easily reach the top part of the walls.
> the bottom part, which I spray twice a day, always stays moist. Furthermore, it is now true for me that the lighting is very high to get a neat growth, due to the heat development the walls will also dry a little faster. In addition, I have 4 fans running non-stop in the tank that will also dry the walls extra.
> I think that if you spray automatically, you should aim the nozzles more towards the walls, or possibly place extra nozzles.
> ...


Thanks. Yes maybe I should aim more on the background. The parts where the spray does reach remain wet, just there’s no real seepage in the same way that the fern would provide. I’ve been aiming more at the plants, but I suppose aiming at the background would hit the plants on the way past as well  will experiment a bit...


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

SimonL said:


> Thanks. Yes maybe I should aim more on the background. The parts where the spray does reach remain wet, just there’s no real seepage in the same way that the fern would provide. I’ve been aiming more at the plants, but I suppose aiming at the background would hit the plants on the way past as well  will experiment a bit...


The advantage of fern root plate is that it does indeed remain moist if you want to overgrow the walls. On the other hand, they last less because they will never really dry. The tempex plates last a long time, but will also dry faster if you do not keep them wet. The nice thing about the fine peat on the plates is that there are always seeds of moss and ferns in it that will soon also grow on the tempex walls. I placed the tree trunks to grow climbing plants against it, and to be able to place simple orchids.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Robru said:


> Because the climate has improved inside, the temperature is now 75.2F during the day and the humidity is between 80-85%. The plants grow very well with the exception of the Begonia bowerii, which melted last week, but under the old leaves has a lot of production of new leaves.


Some begonias are notorious for doing this - melting entirely and then regrowing from the base. It could be due to water sitting on the leaves, might want to place it somewhere with more air movement. Apparently, it also needs less moisture than most other begonias.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Some begonias are notorious for doing this - melting entirely and then regrowing from the base. It could be due to water sitting on the leaves, might want to place it somewhere with more air movement. Apparently, it also needs less moisture than most other begonias.


That's right, under the melted leaves you can already see a lot of new leaves. The plant is well positioned in the air flow from the fans. I understand that some Begonia species adapt to the wetter conditions in this way.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

1 month later, the plants are already starting to grow well.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

I was able to pick up the frogs a week earlier than expected.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

It looks like the P. terribilis have now settled in the forest. Each frog has found its 'own' place, and are always keen on moving insects. Very nice to see that they come together during the meal and return to their own area afterwards.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

The forest grows and grows. Adjusted the lighting slightly, removed some white light (7000K) and applied some more yellow light (5000K).

















FF breeding is now also going well. Every week I set up 3 new 34 oz. cultures.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Looking nice! How are your fruit fly yields with the wood wool? I was finding it very hit and miss. However recently I recently switched to coffee filters and get way, way more flies


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

SimonL said:


> Looking nice! How are your fruit fly yields with the wood wool? I was finding it very hit and miss. However recently I recently switched to coffee filters and get way, way more flies


Thank you Simon, there are of course many ways to grow good fruit flies but I get good results this way. I am currently playing with more or less nutrient substrate, I have the idea that this is more important than the wood wool or something like that. I now make the food as thin as low-fat yogurt and translates into full pots of flies. Definitely necessary with 6 of those wolverines.

The first weeks I tried with the golden
Drosophila hydei, but gave little success. After I switched to a different strain, the cultivation is fine.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Yes, I also discovered thinner is better when it comes to the substrate - too thick and they dry out too quickly. My problem with the wood will was that the flies tended to immediately jump off the wood wool and drown in the soup  maybe I wasn’t using enough….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

SimonL said:


> Yes, I also discovered thinner is better when it comes to the substrate - too thick and they dry out too quickly. My problem with the wood will was that the flies tended to immediately jump off the wood wool and drown in the soup  maybe I wasn’t using enough….
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you put enough wood wool in the cup, that shouldn't be a problem. What I did read - and I don't know if that's true - that the females die after laying eggs. That could explain the dead flies on the substrate.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Feeding time!


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Just another update from this stubborn frog lover.
The frog forest is doing fine, as are the frogs. They grow well and eat their bellies full of everything that flies and crawls.
The temperature is now around 77F and the RH at 80% during the day and 90% at night.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)




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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

The six poison dart frogs are now 11 months old, eating and growing well. I feed them large fruit flies, wax moth larvae, house crickets, phoenix learve, white tropical isopoda, pea aphids and curling flies. All feeds dusted with Rephasy Cal+. I can hear the men calling regularly.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

They look 👌👌


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Three in a row...


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

Today the vivarium is given an extreme pruning. Big open spaces cut into the favorite of the terribilis. They seem to be happy with it. Sit in the spotlight for hours.

Because I really got a bucket full of plants away, I have also reduced the amount of light.
6500K is now 25%, red at 15% and blue at 5%.










There is also cuttings of the Monstera Karstenianum - Peru root to draw on ro water, which I will plant in the viv soon.


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