# Stiffed again



## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

What is it with some people? I am getting sick and tired of getting stiffed. Today I went to Wheaton to pick up some frogs ( won't say from who or what as that would not be nice ) and he never showed. I've tried for two weeks to contact this person and never got any response. As far as I know we were supposed to meet at the show. Nope. Stiffed again. I drove 3 hrs each way for this nonsense. Luckily I did got some nice frogs from a vendor there. Last summer I sent frogs to New York and got stiffed $50 on the shipping. Should have known better. Will be watching for that person to appear on D-board again. Been trying to contact someone in Florida about some frogs I have been trying so get since last fall. Kept getting put off and now no response. Now the price has double what I was offered them for I see. Why are people this way? I am a trusting person but no more. When it comes to my frogs or trusting someone else forget it.

Just blowing off steam about inconsiderate people. There are a lot of good people here I deal with and some that just make mistakes including me. But I have met some inconsiderate ones also. Nuff said.


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## Arizona Tropicals (Feb 15, 2010)

That's the problem with the internet sometimes, it's way too easy for those types of people to be flaky, inconsiderate and sometimes just plain dishonest. Sorry to hear of your woes!


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

yea its the nature of the internet... im gonna start setting dates and times for things to be done by or im not going to do them. 

I recently had a buyer who I had worked out all the details with... send money via paypal by friday, i'll ship out monday... blah blah blah... sure enough monday afternoon, still no money, no responses to PMs... nothing.

I eventually readvertised the frogs and was able to get another buyer... but it just bothers me that he didnt at least send a "hey, im no longer interested" message or SOMETHING.... instead of just ignoring me. Its just plain inconsiderate.

But hey, like Aaron said... its the internet... I guess we should expect that kind of stuff


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Inconsiderate people-the world is full of them.
I trust a hand full of people here.
I don`t have to name them, if you`re a regular here-you know who they are.

John


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Sorry man, I hope they feel terrible when they read your post. I've had mostly good interactions with hobbyists, wether its motorcyclists, woodworking, fish, or frogs. I do get a lot of people saying "Hey, I want to buy X amount of Y from you!" then never show up, but that's mostly off of CL, so I kinda expect it and I always have them come to me. I do hate it when they waste my time with 15 emails asking questions that where answered in my ad! They don't realize it, but it's really, really a PITA, especially because I'm just a guy trying to sell some fish or whatever, not a businessman whose job it is to deal with customers.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Sadly this happens a lot all over the net for just about everything.. i have witness this happen a few times where people offer frogs and sell them to someone else and then never contact the original buyer, or they die and their to ashamed to say hey listen the frogs kicked im sorry because they fear it may give them a bad name to have frogs they offered died but hey it happens no shame in that.

all i can tell you is to network with people in your area or here on the board and build bonds and try to work within your network. for example here in my area we have a tight group of people that are local and a handful that arent. if someone says hey i need this.. i go hey my buddy so and so had them heres his email write to him let him know i sent you over and hell take great care of you. and thats how things are done over here on this end.. i mean you can always contact the vendors here on DB they are all very helpful in their own way just ask people who they use and what type of expierence they had with them. dont ask publically DB does not allow vendor feedback.
i hope you find this helpful and dont lose hope in your fellow frogger most of us are here to help.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

That's frustrating. Personally, I'm always careful to committing to buying something from anyone because I know what kind of a reputation I'll end up getting if I commit to something and don't follow through. I think I've ended up backing out of one order, but I explained the situation to them and I think they understood where I was coming from. I just have to wonder what would compel a person to contact anyone for a business transaction without the full intent of following through.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

I hate people like that.

Or the kind who wants to bargain after meeting.

as if the frogs were some kind of commodity good.


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

It wouldn't even be so bad if they at least answered you but to just ignore? GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

You know who you are.


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

AND AGAIN. Bought some bicolors of a dealer on KS which had a guarantee. Lost all but two of them. he said he only had two more to send and would ship on a certain. Never shipped and no further contact. Won't answer my emails either. Sick of it. Anyone wants to know who these people are I will gladly share that info in a PM. Maybe if enough people don't do business with them it will teach them something about dealing with people.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You should try selling frogs. I`d say 9 of 10 have backed out of deals in the last 2 months. Some email or call and say they aren`t interested and some just stop replying.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

That's why I don't do business on KS. At least on DB people have reputations to worry about.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I would think that for the sake of this hobbies quality we will eventually have to start naming names. Its the only way to knock them down a peg or two which would almost guarentee more effort on the buyers and sellers part. There are too many interested buyers with no means to purchase, trade or even show up and they to should be outed. As far as sellers go it can only help the quality of this hobby to out bad dealings/or sub par frogs.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> That's why I don't do business on KS. At least on DB people have reputations to worry about.


well said.


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

frogfarm said:


> You should try selling frogs. I`d say 9 of 10 have backed out of deals in the last 2 months. Some email or call and say they aren`t interested and some just stop replying.


I think if people back out deals and no money was transferred or frogs were transferred, they do have a right to back out. The people that do back out should let the seller know what the deal is and whats the reason but if they just stop replying I can understand the frustration. 

I guess this is why we have the vendor info and questions....


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

I agree with this. If you let the seller know that you no longer want the frogs/plants/whatever is being sold BEFORE the intended transaction date, then I don't think there should be a problem. Sometime things come up and you have to spend that money elsewhere. 



jfehr232 said:


> I think if people back out deals and no money was transferred or frogs were transferred, they do have a right to back out. The people that do back out should let the seller know what the deal is and whats the reason but if they just stop replying I can understand the frustration.
> 
> I guess this is why we have the vendor info and questions....


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jfehr232 said:


> I think if people back out deals and no money was transferred or frogs were transferred, they do have a right to back out. The people that do back out should let the seller know what the deal is and whats the reason but if they just stop replying I can understand the frustration.
> 
> I guess this is why we have the vendor info and questions....


I think very few people are going to disagree with this. But I don't think that backing out is the problem. I've backed out of a couple deals in the past, but I've let my sellers know exactly what was going on and I don't feel like there's ever been any hard feelings. The issues come from the people who are too pansy to admit to the seller that something's come up... or from the people who hope that the seller will hold their frogs for a couple weeks while they get their finances in order but don't let them know what's happening. A lot of the frustration could be solved by people just admitting what's going on, but few people do.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Or they tell you they are going to buy them and then keep looking for a better deal while you are holding their frogs. I`ve seen the level of trust in frog deals dwindle significantly over time.



SmackoftheGods said:


> I think very few people are going to disagree with this. But I don't think that backing out is the problem. I've backed out of a couple deals in the past, but I've let my sellers know exactly what was going on and I don't feel like there's ever been any hard feelings. The issues come from the people who are too pansy to admit to the seller that something's come up... or from the people who hope that the seller will hold their frogs for a couple weeks while they get their finances in order but don't let them know what's happening. A lot of the frustration could be solved by people just admitting what's going on, but few people do.


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## Nixiness (Apr 21, 2010)

Fortunately here in the UK I seem to have had only good experiences. Most of the people I have made deals with are spot on and totally sound. Maybe I am just one of the lucky ones!


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## jackj921 (Apr 17, 2008)

Funny but I was just thinking along the same lines about "frog" people. Though I have kept darts for only 3 years, I have been a tropical fish hobbyist for over 50 years and I cannot recall one instance where a letter or email I sent went unanswered, EVEN if in the negative. And I have NEVER been stiffed in buying fish online even if they were coming from Thailand or Singapore! I have even received replies from Herb Axelrod former owner of TFH magazine and Jack Wattley the 70 year old plus discus fish expert. 
But just recently I sent 5 inquiries to sponsers on this board by email looking for red galacs and only one, Sean Stewart, had the courtesy to reply. Mention putting 2 species in the same viv, or hybrids in frogs, and even a unknowing newcomer will be treated like Jeffrey Dahmer in many instances. This dart hobby will grow much faster and be able to attract and KEEP newcomers if we treat all questions (and people) like we would want to be treated!!!!


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

Hey Smack, most of my business is done here on DB. Both buying and selling. I had a guy in NY buy some darts then after his money was transfered he doubled his order. He sent more money but we didn't know how much the shipping would be and PROMISED to send the difference which was like $50. Never did an never answered my emails. I even sent him some extra frogs. Well let me tell you that will nver happen. From now on its ALL the money up front. Then you get the frogs.


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

stingfrog said:


> Hey Smack, most of my business is done here on DB. Both buying and selling. I had a guy in NY buy some darts then after his money was transfered he doubled his order. He sent more money but we didn't know how much the shipping would be and PROMISED to send the difference which was like $50. Never did an never answered my emails. I even sent him some extra frogs. Well let me tell you that will nver happen. From now on its ALL the money up front. Then you get the frogs.


Learn from your mistakes. 

People are like that where ever you go, on here and other places also...


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

I've always had great experiences from people on here. In the past, I have even let someone make payments to me after I sent frogs because they could not afford all of them at once, and he did until they were paid off. I have also a few times sent some extra "hitch-hikers" along with shipments and have also been treated the same. I also have had no problems holding frogs for someone for awile and had them back out. It sucks to hear that others have had such bad dealings with some on here.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

stingfrog said:


> Hey Smack, most of my business is done here on DB. Both buying and selling. I had a guy in NY buy some darts then after his money was transfered he doubled his order. He sent more money but we didn't know how much the shipping would be and PROMISED to send the difference which was like $50. Never did an never answered my emails. I even sent him some extra frogs. Well let me tell you that will nver happen. From now on its ALL the money up front. Then you get the frogs.


Since these are DB related deals, are you capturing the details with the iTrader system?


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Good point Eric.
I recently sold frogs to two Texas froggers that saw my ad on Dendro, I posted on i-trader for them and they did the same for me.
I will definately check that before dealing with anyone who I am shipping frogs to.
My transactions were local so I was not worried about non-payment but if I was going to go to the process of shipping frogs, I would use the i-trader system along with taking all money up front before shipping. Also, in all of the frog deals I have done there were plenty of phone calls and e-mails beforehand.

-Beth


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## highfyre (Feb 19, 2010)

jackj921 said:


> Funny but I was just thinking along the same lines about "frog" people. Though I have kept darts for only 3 years, I have been a tropical fish hobbyist for over 50 years and I cannot recall one instance where a letter or email I sent went unanswered, EVEN if in the negative. And I have NEVER been stiffed in buying fish online even if they were coming from Thailand or Singapore! I have even received replies from Herb Axelrod former owner of TFH magazine and Jack Wattley the 70 year old plus discus fish expert.
> But just recently I sent 5 inquiries to sponsers on this board by email looking for red galacs and only one, Sean Stewart, had the courtesy to reply. Mention putting 2 species in the same viv, or hybrids in frogs, and even a unknowing newcomer will be treated like Jeffrey Dahmer in many instances. This dart hobby will grow much faster and be able to attract and KEEP newcomers if we treat all questions (and people) like we would want to be treated!!!!


Thats a great point! I am also a member on a reef forum and cant ever recal NOT having a PM replied to. In just a couple of months on here I have had SEVERAL PM's that were disregarded while trying to buy my first frogs. Its a bit frustrating at times.


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

I have been here with all of you now for about 2 1/2 years and have never had a single issue, all the frogs I pay for I get, all the frogs I get I pay for, and have even made a deal where I was making payments to someone, all these deals end up great. I have noticed however that sometimes when you email someone or they email me there emails end up in the (SPAM) folder, that has resulted in a delay once for someone who was supposed to send me frogs.


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## Lunar Gecko (May 7, 2010)

wait till you get sent and empty box overnight UPS.


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## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

You may want to use American Express in your transactions, as they have a very good, "refund policy" for cases like this.Submit to AA your complaint and generally they will do a charge back until the transaction is in order. You can do PayPal hooked to an American Express too.
FYI
Bruce


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Lunar Gecko said:


> wait till you get sent and empty box overnight UPS.




That happened to you?!


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

How about deli cups of dead animals that have clearly been dead for days. I had one cup with frogs with bones showing.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

When you talk about network. If you are talking about the Weaton Il show. Here in Chicago we have some real froggers, no question. JUst PM me and I can help you out.
Daryl

As for DB I have been screwed once here by a seller.

D


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## xsputnikx (May 11, 2010)

JJuchems said:


> How about deli cups of dead animals that have clearly been dead for days. I had one cup with frogs with bones showing.


This just makes me want to punch someone


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I guess this isn't technically 'stiffed' but I've been waiting for return emails from 3 venders. The first one for over a week, the second for almost a week and the third has only been 3 days (ok I'll give this one a break).

The first two were questions about products I had already purchased. The last one was a question about a product I would like to purchase.

I'm the worst kind of customer. I don't complain or make waves, I just quietly move on to a different seller, figuring my business isn't wanted. 

A question for you; how long should I wait for a response before I move on?


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

JJuchems said:


> How about deli cups of dead animals that have clearly been dead for days. I had one cup with frogs with bones showing.


See, the difference between the guy who said this makes him want to punch someone, and me - I WILL go punch someone. If it involves a MAC flight to their local AFB and a car rental, that just means that the place I hit them is going to get hit a whole lot harder. (I hit pretty hard, goes along with the training.)

And to the gentleman who said we should start naming names. Forget it. Dendroboard will never allow it. When this board first started, I asked a question about a dart frog supplement called Dendrocare; Was anyone else having seizure problems with it and their frogs. I found a LARGE number of people who were. It took about two hours for the discussion to move from "Are you having problems?", to "How DARE you run down the maker of this product publicly?!?!" Later, I made mention of a breeder who seemed to have a penchant for sendng males. I meant nothing malicious, that is just the way it seemed - twice I heard calling male "froglets" as the shipped boxes were opened. 

As soon as I mentioned it though, People went crazy. It turned into a long drawn out thing about libel, slander, "tort" (legal BS term when something true is said, but is not really liked) so on and so forth, when in actuality none of the aforementioned were true - I just wrote what I saw. So naming names here, on this board; The best way to get yourself tossed, trust me.

Anyway, the best way to make sure that you always have good dealings is only deal with those who have stellar reputations when it comes to their frogs. As everyone knows, the VERY BEST poison frogs come from Washington State, all others are secondary,  just stick to buyers out here in the PNW, and you will always be golden!! (Before anyone freaks, I am kidding. Kindof. Sortof.)


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## xsputnikx (May 11, 2010)

oh trust me if that happened to me they would get more than punched. I work hard for my money and I take care of my animals and get really mad when I hear of someone neglecting animals or trying to pass off something that it isn't. 

I totally agree that buying from a reputable buyer is always the best solution. Our nature is what works against us. People always want to be able to say I got a "deal" on something and the lower price always brings attraction to a purchase even if were not 100% sure if were dealing with a good honest person.

You get what you pay for in any of aspect of life, unless you know someone and there hooking you up personally.

The forums are a way to publicly express your opinions or thoughts with a moderate level of respect for others. Its best usually not to call out names or do anything unless you have hard factual evidence. For example the use of the product and the seizures going on. To get 100% proof on this you would need actual lab testing done with a group of frogs in a controlled environment with variables set in place to be able to fully come out and place the blame on the product. 

I think the best way is to just stay away from them people.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> How about deli cups of dead animals that have clearly been dead for days. I had one cup with frogs with bones showing.


Since people are getting worked up about this.. 

This does not automatically mean that dead frogs were shipped to the buyer... Amphibians decompose much more rapidly than other vertebrates.. and this is directly temperature dependent... for those who are interested in a study on this with salamanders I suggest 
PINNACLE - Decomposition Rates of Salamander (Ambystoma Maculatum) Life Stages and Associated Energy and Nutrient Fluxes in Ponds and Adjacent Forest in Southern Illinois

Ed


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## xsputnikx (May 11, 2010)

Not really worked up about it... but don't most of the reputable guys do a live arrival promise?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

xsputnikx said:


> Not really worked up about it... but don't most of the reputable guys do a live arrival promise?


A live arrival guarantee doesn't mean that the animals involved are going to automatically arrive alive much less in good conditions.. A live arrival guarantee simply means that the seller will refund if the animals don't arrive alive (unless there are other conditions that are exempted from thier guarantee such as excessive temperatures, failure to accept package on first delivery etc..) 

It also doesn't mean that the animals were or were not handled properly prior to shipment..

And more than one person threatening physical violence is not getting worked up? 


Ed


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

xsputnikx said:


> Not really worked up about it... but don't most of the reputable guys do a live arrival promise?


Yes, it seems like people are getting worked up about it if, someone like you says you will punch someone in the face. To me that is getting worked up about it. ( take no offense, just seems like you are pretty upset) 

Before buying frogs people should make sure there is some kind of live arrival in the transaction. If someone really has had a bad dealing with someone, fauna would be the best place to go to see reputation's.


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

Ed, you know darn good and well I am all cheery and smiles when I say I am gonna whack some bum out. Heck, that is one of the things that they look for in us military types. Imagine everybody's surprise when at IAD in 04 they discovered I was just about the nicest guy EVER!!! (lol!) (I even gave away frogs at that show, just because the folks inquiring were not selling too much at their table, and really liked what I had at mine.)

Now, am I worked up? No, not really. Just having a little fun. Besides, everybody knows that inflection is _easily_ conveyed through typing on the internet. Just add your own narrative as to how it is supposed to sound. Of course, I could get all "adjectivey" when I write, using sentences like "...John said with a sneer and a nasty drawl in his voice..." But then I would attract writing critics, and An Anne Rice I am soooo TOTALLY not.

Really though, this topic is not something to get all worked up about. I think the best line in this whole thread has been, "I quietly take my business elsewhere." And those words are something that no business wants to hear when it is referred to their business practices.

It's funny nowadays what sortof things do NOT get me all worked up. Everybody remembers I used to be Tincs.com? If you go run that address now... I have already been told by a number of people they would be absolutely furious, but, meh, no biggie - I hope it is helping them out. They should have kept the pages, as all the info was top notch, and more geared towards helping other froggers instead of sell sell sell, but not my problem anymore. I guess as long as I got my money back after a deal gone bad, or I made good on a deal gone bad on my end, nowadays in reality, I don't really care.

Anyway, stick with those you know folks, and buy quality, not price.


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## xsputnikx (May 11, 2010)

Ed said:


> A live arrival guarantee doesn't mean that the animals involved are going to automatically arrive alive much less in good conditions.. A live arrival guarantee simply means that the seller will refund if the animals don't arrive alive (unless there are other conditions that are exempted from thier guarantee such as excessive temperatures, failure to accept package on first delivery etc..)
> 
> It also doesn't mean that the animals were or were not handled properly prior to shipment..
> 
> ...



No Not really worked up honestly just simply they would deserve....

Let me clarify by stating that ok lets say I ordered from a random vendor. For starters I wouldn't order from them unless they did live arrival guarantee... It would be my responsibility to ensure that I was there to accept that package or ship it to a location someone would be at home. Ok so I open my package and call and explain the matter to them they say ok refund your money or ship out a new order everything is good no worries. 

If the opposite happened even though they had a guarantee and I did everything on my end to accept the package and they didn't want to honor it 
I would find a way to get my money back.

Im not really worked up.. my pulse last time I checked was nice and calm. Me punching someone in the face is what they would deserve if they were neglecting an animal and a box of bones showed up to my house. IF a next day package died could it really decompose to the point of nothing but bones within a 24 hour period?


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

frogface said:


> I'm the worst kind of customer. I don't complain or make waves, I just quietly move on to a different seller, figuring my business isn't wanted.


That is how I handle an unresponsive vendor as well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

xsputnikx said:


> .
> IF a next day package died could it really decompose to the point of nothing but bones within a 24 hour period?


Yes, if the conditions were right, it could easily happen. That is one of the reasons I posted the link with data showing rates of decompostion for a amphibian. On a purely anecdotal level, I have observed this occuring within a 24 hour period when amphibians have died, in a consistent moist wet enviroment where the temperatures ran into the low 80s. The softening of the tissue due to not only the enzymes in the tissue but the effects of the microbial action will with some disturbance (such as shaking around in a cup in a box) cause tissue to slough away from the bones. This causes an appearance that the frogs have been dead longer than they actual have been. 

The fact that there was an automatic jump to violence is a problem. This jump is based on an assumption that 
1) the animals were improperly cared for before shipping
2) that the problem during shipment is automatically due to negligence. 

I am not defending when animals are neglected or improperly treated but in this discussion there is an assumption that this has occured without any proof only supposition. 

Ed


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## xsputnikx (May 11, 2010)

ok I will give you that one... my lack of knowledge on the decomposition rate of these animals coupled with the thoughts of someone shipping out a skeleton resulting in the out come of me wanting to punch someone because of it.

"MY BAD"

with that being said violence is not the answer for everything. To some it is an outlet, a way to vent frustrations, and by doing so justifies that it creates a temporary euphoria that everything is magically all better might not be right, by plenty might be in there eyes not the proper way to handle a situation. 

but still whats to stop someone from shipping out dead livestock trying to pass it off as a live product knowing they can later fall upon and blame it on shipping problems.

I have ordered darts online 2 times now from a vendor and the box was top notch, was around sept last year and pretty toasty in my area with the proper car and packaging the frogs arrived in perfect condition and were active the minute the came out the box..

but to get this topic back on track your best bet in all honesty is that if you feel you could be getting better service somewhere else move on.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

xsputnikx said:


> but still whats to stop someone from shipping out dead livestock trying to pass it off as a live product knowing they can later fall upon and blame it on shipping problems.


Does it matter if there is a guarantee as they have to either refund the money or ship more animals at thier cost.. a net loss of money. If they refuse to comply, then complaints can be filed with the various agencies.. and vendor feedback and the BOI etc... 

Ed


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## xsputnikx (May 11, 2010)

I guess it doesn't as long as you have a guarantee and most likely it wouldn't happen when I said that I meant in terms of someone who did not.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

xsputnikx said:


> I guess it doesn't as long as you have a guarantee and most likely it wouldn't happen when I said that I meant in terms of someone who did not.


Isn't that the same as buying anything that does not have a guarantee? Caveat emptor? 

Ed


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

frogface said:


> I guess this isn't technically 'stiffed' but I've been waiting for return emails from 3 venders. The first one for over a week, the second for almost a week and the third has only been 3 days (ok I'll give this one a break).
> 
> The first two were questions about products I had already purchased. The last one was a question about a product I would like to purchase.
> 
> ...


I've never had a poor experience with live animals (cross my fingers), but I've certainly had experiences like you mention above. Even with well known companies/people. I'm sure his systems are excellent, but I've contacted MistKing with questions and never received any sort of response whatsoever. 

As someone who owns and runs a business, such lack of communication is COMPLETELY unacceptable.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

fyi, I still haven't heard back from any of them. 

I'd appreciate a reply even if it was an email that said 'your question is too stupid to answer'


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