# Huge fly culture



## fido (Sep 29, 2008)

Has anyone tryed making a large culture that just keeps on producing? Kind of like a bio reactor.
I am thinking a contioner about 5 gal. a wine carboy might work. Kind of like a compost bin but sealed to keep the bad bugs out. 
Sterilized media could added when needed. There could be a valve put in the side for adding food and a valve at the top for the flys to crawl through into another container to harvest. 
Peatmoss coud be put in the botton to absorb used food.

Im just kind of thinking how this might work. Im at the point I have cultures all over the freeken place. It would be nice to have a couple of huge ones.
Hmmmmm.
Anyone herd of such a thing?
Stephen


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

while an interesting idea im assuming people would rather avoid "putting all their eggs (flies) in one basket"

if it crashes, doesnt produce as much as normal, or becomes mite infested then you could be screwed.



Also it might be harder to feed from.


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## gio (Nov 9, 2010)

i dont think its a good idea i tried it once with a big container i got at the 99 and the FF did not go good they reproduce at a fast rate and they morph fast like 200 per day and plus u have several problems i went back to making smaller cultures but give it a try i dont recomend i tho.


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## fido (Sep 29, 2008)

Ya I definatly have the what if crash on the mind. You would have to keep some regular cultures on the go.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I wouldn't rely on something like that as my main feeding means, due to crashes, mite infestations, etc... but that or smaller versions hooked to tanks have been considered, maybe even done by some here. Basically setting up a system where there is a steady stream of food into a viv or a rack of vivs and then just adding additional dusted flies a few times a week. 

I think one issue is the cocoons and dead flies and crap would build up clogging the system eventually or making it pretty nasty at some point. I think you'd wanna make it so the main culturing container was easily removed and replaced, and so the lines could be flushed out or cleaned easily. Basically you'd wanna make it as easy as possible to "reset" the system and start fresh from time to time.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> mite infestations


I think Dave pretty much summed it up right there.
Doug


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## fido (Sep 29, 2008)

I agree this would be very tempermental. If mites do get in it would be the end of the culture and a lot of wasted work.
I am thinking this system would be basically sealed. Use an air pump to add air to the culture buble the air through water to catch any nastys going in and out the vent.
Actuall valves where you add food and let flies out. I am on the hunt for a used wine carboy to try this out. I will post my mad scientest contraption wen it is up and running.I don't plan on stoping my main cultures this will be just a test to see if i can get it to work. I may even add some red wiglers (compost worms) to do the cleanup of dead flys and food. leca balls in the bottom may work. Im not sure if the worms would live in it. Maybe a layer of peat then have a layer of leca balls on top to hold the fly food at up.

I have done tissue culture in the past and looked at bio reactors. This is basically how they worked. Add sterilised plant matter to start it. Then add media/food. and remove plant matter as it grows. This was basically done in a bag with ports/valves for adding and removing.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fido said:


> I agree this would be very tempermental. If mites do get in it would be the end of the culture and a lot of wasted work.
> I am thinking this system would be basically sealed. Use an air pump to add air to the culture buble the air through water to catch any nastys going in and out the vent.
> Actuall valves where you add food and let flies out. I am on the hunt for a used wine carboy to try this out. I will post my mad scientest contraption wen it is up and running.I don't plan on stoping my main cultures this will be just a test to see if i can get it to work. I may even add some red wiglers (compost worms) to do the cleanup of dead flys and food. leca balls in the bottom may work. Im not sure if the worms would live in it. Maybe a layer of peat then have a layer of leca balls on top to hold the fly food at up.
> 
> I have done tissue culture in the past and looked at bio reactors. This is basically how they worked. Add sterilised plant matter to start it. Then add media/food. and remove plant matter as it grows. This was basically done in a bag with ports/valves for adding and removing.


Completely sealing the system or nearly so, is an intresting idea, one issue though may be mites coming in down the feeding lines from the tanks. Seems like it would be hard to seal the system completely because of these lines. Another option on a system like this is basically doing a culture per tank, or per every 3 tanks something like that. Basically a normal, or little larger culture with a special lid an maybe some kinda holster for the culture attached to the tank. Basically u insert new culture into the holster/holder attach your special lid with feeding line attached and run it to the tank. Could use airline, and fittings, T's whatever to run multiple lines from 1 culture. Basically the same idea as a multi line drip wall for a viv. Only here the culture is the pump and instead of water its pumping flies down multiple lines. 

If the flies have trouble accessing the lines you could run string through them down into the culture. They should easily be able climb the string and follow down the lines dropping into the tanks. Probably every couple months you'll wanna wash out your lines, and you'd just replace your cultures as needed like you normally would. I think one culture divided by 2-4 or even 5 tanks would be good. Since supplementing the flies would be difficult this would just be extra food that trickles into the tanks almost constantly. I think one booming culture would have the potential to dump to many flies to fast into just 1 or even 2 tanks so multiple tanks per 1 culture may be best. 

This would just serve as extra feeding like springtails, and woodlice. Then you just dust a few dozen flies for each frog a couple times a week and you'd be good to go. I think you'd find the frogs would stay fat, when you did feed manually you'd have to feed much less and you might even be able to stretch out the use of some cultures or need to use less cultures in your normal feeding so what you had on hand at any given time would tend to further. For instance if you basically have to empty most of the flies out of 2 booming cultures to make your feeding rounds in a day, maybe now you'd only need to empty 1 and could save the other for the next feeding since the frogs had been so well fed in the meantime


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hey guys

You seem to be concerned about mites getting into this. If that's the case, you can't add flies. Mites and ff's go hand in hand. The reason the cultures are tossed after 30 days is so that the mites (that are already on the flies) don't have a chance to explode in population. How would you be able to gurantee a mite free fruit fly?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frogfreak said:


> Hey guys
> 
> You seem to be concerned about mites getting into this. If that's the case, you can't add flies. Mites and ff's go hand in hand. The reason the cultures are tossed after 30 days is so that the mites (that are already on the flies) don't have a chance to explode in population. How would you be able to gurantee a mite free fruit fly?


Exactly, thats the problem with a really large culture. By the time the media is eaten up and the culture has run its course you've probably had an explosion of mites. Thats why I recommend a smaller scale system, where cultures can easily be changed out. A really large culture that is dosed with enough flies and contains enough surface area for them to maximize production may be workable on large number of tanks. Say like one of those big blue water-cooler water bottles with a couple inches of media and a substrate for the flies to lay eggs on and starting it with thousands of flies so the population booms fast enough to eat through the majority of the culture within 30 days. Use that culture and multiple lines to feed 20 vivs or something simultaneously. 

Again this would only be usable to give the frogs something to graze on. You'd still need to manually feed dusted flies. I believe awhile back someone had an idea how to automatically dust the flies, like a trap they had to walk through or something. Problem is with something like that even if you can get the flies dusted the powder may go bad pretty fast due to being exposed to the air, so might be wasting alot of powder or be constantly changing it every day or few days. Don't know what came of that idea, if it every was tried or not.


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## fido (Sep 29, 2008)

I have read some say there is no such thing as a mite free culture. I have had 2 typs of mite get into my cultures occationally. A larger one that like it more dry and I have seen a smaller one that I have seen in very wet areas.
I use a hand held microscope to check cultures from the outside. They are very easy to see if they are in there. 
Unless I am just not looking hard enough I would say that my cultures are mite free. I use calcium powder bath before inoculating new cultures I have herd this helps. I have also use the (run the mites) teck to eliminat mites. Also washing larva in a sieve to rid them. The usual first sign of mites is when you put a culture lid back on and you get that crunching sandy sound as the lid snaps on..... sonova B.
Needles to say mites would be a big consern and are a PITA.
Stephen


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Not to mention you would need a good amount of media which the smell over time would be nasty and hard to clean if it gets moldy or when the build up outweighs the good.I wouldn't do it but keep us posted if you try it.

Lou


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

fido said:


> I have read some say there is no such thing as a mite free culture. I have had 2 typs of mite get into my cultures occationally. A larger one that like it more dry and I have seen a smaller one that I have seen in very wet areas.
> I use a hand held microscope to check cultures from the outside. They are very easy to see if they are in there.
> Unless I am just not looking hard enough I would say that my cultures are mite free. I use calcium powder bath before inoculating new cultures I have herd this helps. I have also use the (run the mites) teck to eliminat mites. Also washing larva in a sieve to rid them. The usual first sign of mites is when you put a culture lid back on and you get that crunching sandy sound as the lid snaps on..... sonova B.
> Needles to say mites would be a big consern and are a PITA.
> Stephen


Hi Stephen

I think you may be missing the point? Maybe not, but I'll say it again just to make sure. The mites are carried on the belly of the fly. There is no such thing as a mite free culture. Not even in a lab setting. It's not possible. Controlling mite populations is what people try and do. Keep them to a minimum.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

There's a older thread where ff culture size is discussed, and although I don't recall the specifics, it basically concludes that the 32oz size is pretty much ideal for maximum production vs volume.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

If one where to start a fresh culture, with a small amount of media, and after a few days dump the adult flies and wash the media through a strainer to remove the maggots, would those be usable to establish a mite free culture?

Check antique stores for the glass carboys, that's where I got mine for brewing beer. Or you can grab a bottle of Carlo Rossi Sangria for like 5$ in a gallon jug. I've got a couple of those too, might try one of them for ffs.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

One problem I have been thinking of since considering the "tube from culture to tank" idea (which came up some few months ago) is how to get only the adult flies and not the maggots in the tube. Is there any surface that adults will cross but not larvae? I'm thinking maybe copper tape (works on snails) or something like vaseline or a mild electrical current from a AA battery with the poles hooked to two rings of wire 1/16" apart that the adults may step over but the maggots would get shocked on.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

RMB said:


> If one where to start a fresh culture, with a small amount of media, and after a few days dump the adult flies and wash the media through a strainer to remove the maggots, would those be usable to establish a mite free culture?.


That would probably be the best bet. You may still get the odd egg. 

Good thinking!


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## fido (Sep 29, 2008)

Maybe I'm just not finding the mites then. I do have some Hydie that I washend the magotts in a strainer. It will be interesting to try non the less.
Now to find a carboy.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> Hey guys
> 
> You seem to be concerned about mites getting into this. If that's the case, you can't add flies. Mites and ff's go hand in hand. The reason the cultures are tossed after 30 days is so that the mites (that are already on the flies) don't have a chance to explode in population. How would you be able to gurantee a mite free fruit fly?


Not to mention grain mites are already in your fruitfly media.
Doug


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Not to mention grain mites are already in your fruitfly media.
> Doug


Not if you heat it up pretty well.

I think that the mold spores would build up and end the massive culture in short order---it really would take extra maintenance to make it last longer---like continually adding more yeasty media for instance---even then it would still have a shelf life.


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## dralucas (Feb 5, 2007)

100% behind your idea. I tried it in the past but with small cultures pluged to a tubing system with ball valves to let to flies in when the cultures were nicely populated. It didn'T worked that well so i swiched back to normal culture process, but if we keep scaring peoples from trying, then no improuvement will be made. I'm sure in the old day's, culturing flies was not like today, so best of luck to you.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't think anyone is tring to scare anybody...

We're trying to help him overcome some potential problems.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Personally, I think that this is an exercise in futility and will result in a moldy smelly mess. Dead fruit flies by the thousands stinking up the culture and crashing it. Your flies are not going to follow each other, single file, nice and orderly, out the exit tubing. I tried something like this around 6 or 7 years ago with a 1 gallon culture. I found that you cannot tilt the jug as the increased surface are overcomes the tendency of the media to stick to the bottom of the jug. I know that's not your plan, just pointing it out. So I did try a tube out the top of the jug. Yes, some would go out...but the vast majority stayed inside the jug, died and rotted. 
It sounds like you are set on trying this so I wanted to point out the problems I had as it may help in your planning. One thing to keep in mind is that fruit flies follow light so maybe a darkened container with a light at the tube, could help them find their way to their froggy induced death.
Doug


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## fido (Sep 29, 2008)

No problems everyone i don't mind constructive criticism.

Ya my idea is not to run tubing to feed out, but to put say a 32oz cotainer at the top of the carboy, a valve inbetween and remove it to dust flys and feed out. I know the flys tend to go up so maybe that and light idea is a good one too.

The reason I mentioned the composting worms was to take care of the left over food dead flys etc. A problem may be that the worms eat any food added before the fly larva. Im thinking a layer of leca on the top may stop this. I will hold the food higher than the worms if they don't like crawling around in it.

I will be pluming in an air loup in the bottom so things dont go anarobic. The negitive effect of that is it may raise the humidity too much in the fly space.
Once the fly reactor is running everyting that is added will be heated first to kill any nastys.
Found a used carboy I will be picking it up next week. Hopfully I will be able to cut holes in it. 
I'm not worried about it failing, its all part of learning.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

fido said:


> Found a used carboy I will be picking it up next week. Hopfully I will be able to cut holes in it.


Drill holes? or cut holes? I work with glass for a living and cutting holes would be extremely difficult. Drilling with a diamond bit will be easy enough.
Doug


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## fido (Sep 29, 2008)

Drill cut whatever you want to call it. Diamond bur on a dremel or a diamond hole saw on a drill. I will probly use both.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

RMB said:


> One problem I have been thinking of since considering the "tube from culture to tank" idea (which came up some few months ago) is how to get only the adult flies and not the maggots in the tube. Is there any surface that adults will cross but not larvae? I'm thinking maybe copper tape (works on snails) or something like vaseline or a mild electrical current from a AA battery with the poles hooked to two rings of wire 1/16" apart that the adults may step over but the maggots would get shocked on.


Having the tube stop in mid air, near the top of a culture, like an inch or 2 of tube pushed through the lid with a string running through and hanging down a bit should allow the flies to access the tube since even flightless ones can hop a bit and crawl on vertical surfaces. The maggots should mostly stick to the media and stay low in the culture, though some may venture near the top to cocoon. I've noticed the more ventilated a culture is plus the more surface area in the bottom there is for them to stick to the more they tend to stay low...So I think it is something you can limit, but I'm not sure you can stop it all together.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

fido said:


> Drill cut whatever you want to call it. Diamond bur on a dremel or a diamond hole saw on a drill. I will probly use both.


Just making sure you weren't trying to score it with a glass cutter and knock it out. That's hard to pull off.
Doug


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