# Small lump under neck...



## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

Has anyone ever successfully treated one of these? Dr. Frye said it could either be a small bacterial absess or could contain a small worm. 

Just looking for any hope that I could just close my eyes and wish it away. 



















Thanks for looking!
Kristen


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## felicitedanes (May 2, 2005)

Well, I'm not particularly proud of it, but I did once close my eyes and wish a couple away, and they did go away eventually. This was several years ago, before I knew about Dr. Frye or had access to the exotics dept. at the vet school. My leuc got a similar looking lump on the side of his head under his eye, which went away after a while, and then he got another one on his neck, which also went away and he's never had another one again. Each of them took a couple weeks to disappear. I hope yours turns out well, whatever you decide to do about it.
Felicite


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

Thanks for the info...at least there is hope. I guess you had no idea what it was, then, right? If it was bacterial or some sort of parasite...that is the main concern since we don't know how to treat it unless we know what it is. 

Take care,
Kristen


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## felicitedanes (May 2, 2005)

Nope, I had no idea what it was at the time. 
F.


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## asydabass (Jul 12, 2005)

If you think it's bacterial, you could always try some baytril and see what happens. It's a mild enough drug that if that's not what it is, it won't harm the frog.


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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

I just noticed something similar on one of my azureus. Anyone have any ideas on what this might be?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Did either of you find out what that lump was? If so, what did you do about it and did the treatment work?


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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

Hey David,

Unable to ever find out what it was, I just let it go. The area that was affected seems to be more normal looking now. The frog never showed any other signs of being unhealthy so that eased my worrying. 

Jeff


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## Frognut (Jan 31, 2005)

Kristen

very odd I noticed a small lump on my intermedious the other day. But the odd part is its in the exact same spot? Mine has never been in with any other frogs eccept its sibling. What treatment did Dr Frye prescribe?


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

I have seen some skin infections and cysts come and go before, more often on their own. Not every zit requires a dematologist. Antibiotics aren't always neessary. Topical baytril is rather safe, and so is silver sulfadiazene (eaier to obtain and cheaper), so they might be worth trying. However, keep in mind that using antibiotics should include a commitment to treat- meaning you treat beyong the clinical signs, not just for a day or two. Doing nothing might just be as good as a halfed-ass antibiotic therapy. 
Verimous (or parasite caused) cysts are another possibility, in which case Baytril will do jack-squat. See the post: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19261

Best of luck
John


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

Frognut said:


> What treatment did Dr Frye prescribe?


Well, I treated with Baytril, silver sulfadiazene and panacur...none of those had any effect on the small lump. Since those photos were taken, there is not been any significant change in the lump...it appears to be about the same size. 

Dr. Frye actually wanted me to lance it with a sterile needle and see if I could get anything out of it. Then, use above meds to treat accordingly. This all sounds well and good until one actually tries to do this with a thumbnail sized frog. I decided to boy-up...tried for about 10 seconds to catch her, then when I couldn't even get her anywhere close to the position she needed to be in, I decided there was no way I was going to be able to do it myself. The idea of the whole thing freaked me out, so I just tried all three meds to no avail. She is still doing well, hasn't lost weight, so I'm pulling the covers up over my head and pretending it's not there. 

Kristen


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

How long did you treat for? And infection rarely goes away overnight. I would treat for at least a week before calling it quits. If this is a cyst or abbsess, it's harder for the antibiotics to penetrate. Same is true if this is a parasite. 
You do have the disadvantage of such a small size. Some vets might carry ms222 to help sedate the frog and make it actually possible to lance it. Then again, it might be less trouble to learn to ignore it if the bump is not life threatening.
Best of luck
John


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

there was a tb mycobacteria in some of the frogs i brought in from europe years back(only 1 of the problems) which looked the same. the problem w/ them is that you can not find it in fecals or bloodwork but it is contagious and can kill over time. the only way to extract the bacteria is to find a lump, which may be on an internal organ which wouldnt be visable, and lance or use a needle to extract fluid. this is the only way to detect it. the first vet that cultured it or found out what it was told us to take the frogs out of the house and not to breath anywhere near the enclosure. i guess they thought it was a human form?
further symptoms of these frogs was a clouding of the eyes and eventual blindess? and not eating to the point of death. the cure was a certain drug dropped over the lanced wound or lesion which was sometimes caused. this was the problem we found in a lot of galactonotus. i found a similar lump on the orange terribilis from the same shipment which turned out to be a cyst w/ no bacterial infection. i could not tell the difference between the 2 lumps. i was assured there were only a few drugs to treat this specific infection but then again he didnt know about metronidazole and frogs either. he is a tremendous vet but he doesnt see too many darts. he also said if the infection internalized it was not treatable, this drug only worked on external lumps or lesions. some of the galacts necropsied had substantial internal infections.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

vet_boy77 said:


> How long did you treat for? And infection rarely goes away overnight. I would treat for at least a week before calling it quits. If this is a cyst or abbsess, it's harder for the antibiotics to penetrate. Same is true if this is a parasite.


I would not expect it to go away overnight. I did treat for at least a week, I think even closer to two weeks. I did whatever Dr. Frye recommended on the bottle, but I don't have it in front of me at the moment, so I can't say for certain how long it was. It might have been 10 days.

Kristen


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "told us to take the frogs out of the house and not to breath anywhere near the enclosure. i guess they thought it was a human form"endsnip

This is because you can get this form of Mycobacterium from the frogs (the one most commonly seen in frogs is due to Mycobacterium marinum) and can cause the following issues (I'm not really sure why he was concerned about the breathing as it is typically contracted through cuts or scrapes) 

Usually causes localised infections following access through traumatised skin. 
There are 2 main types of skin lesion, which most often affect the hands : 
Single granuloma - appears as an erythematous (pink-purple) nodule up to 3cm in diameter. 
Ascending lymphangitic granuloma - resulting in multiple nodules, lymphadenopathy 
Less commonly : septic arthritis/osteomyelitis with swelling of the joint 
Disseminated disease - rare, but seen occasionally in immune-compromised patients, and results in death

Typically when you see the nodules on the external areas of the frog, this is due to dissemination of the infection from elsewhere on the animal. The current thoughts is that if it comes up with mycobateria is that it can't be cured and the amphibian should be euthanized and the enclosure sterilized. 

Ed


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Ed,

Why wouldn't INH or another TB specific drug work against close relatives to M. tuberculosis?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

this was over 5 years ago and i`ve seen nothing of it since. all enclosures were quarentine enclosures and were sterilized afterwards or discarded.
that was one thing that came from europe that really worried me.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

Ok, well, now that I'm absolutely terrified, all over a small lump? How does one know if that is what this is? Now, I need to know...or said frog is going bye bye. I hate to be that way, but I have young kids. 

I honestly had not heard of many diseases or illnesses that humans can contract from frogs that simple hand washing will not keep in check.


Kristen


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

sorry, i didnt mean to alarm you only to give you the option of knowing there are possibilities, although unlikely. the only way to check is to lance the lump or to draw fluid w/ a needle. i had my vet do it. i`m nowhere near qualified. just dont touch the tank inside and go to other tanks w/out alcoholing your hands. there is only a small chance that is what it is. if the frog doesnt appear to be losing weight or otherwise impaired it`s probably something else. 
this disease was in my house w/ 100`s of other frogs and it was never spread and i handled all of those frogs at one point or another and i never got sick. my friends who bought said infected frogs bred them for some time. some seemed infected and some went symptomless for a long time and i never tracked what happened to them because they were in other collections, which also never got the disease, to the best of my knowledge. i dont think you have that much to worry about as long as you are cautious. if it is even tb, it`s a remote possibility.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can also get it playing in mud or moist dirt. Several Mycobacterial species are pretty much ubiquitous, its just the ones that people catch from their pets that get reported. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Why wouldn't INH or another TB specific drug work against close relatives to M. tuberculosis?"endsnip

According to vets here at work its because they are not that closely related to M. tuberculosis but is much more closely related to M. avium which is apparently pretty resistant to INH. 


Ed


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## Frognut (Jan 31, 2005)

Kristen

Any progress? Did it clear up? 

Scott


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## WntrMute2 (Mar 3, 2005)

I had a leuc w/ a great big lump under her jaw. It didn't seem to effect her in any adverse way but as it was getting larger over a couple of months, I finally took her to Dr. Frye. He took a biopsy w/ a tiny needle but wasn't able to tell anything for sure, just that it was full of epithelial cells with some bacteria. He said it would prbably kill her as he thought it would continue to grow and that would be that. He did give me an antibiotic solution to apply to the skin as well as a wormer called panacur (I think). Well, 6 months later all traces of the lump are gone and she is just as healthy looking as her tankmates. So I don't know what fixed her but something did. Good luck.


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