# Help! why are all my new pums dieing?



## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Well I posted in the members viv section that one of my rios died on monday. Now I checked on my pumilios today and all of them are dead eccept for one mancreek. What in the world is going on?!?!? 

I am so depressed, I spent all of my money that I got for a college graduation preaset on them and now they are almost completely wiped out. 

In total I have lost in 4 days time; 1 man creek, 2 San cristobals and a rio branco. I just dont understand it. All of them have been extremely active and have gained considerable weight since I recieved them, and then they just up and died all at once. The only thing that I can remotely link to there deaths is a mystery plant that I put them on on sunday to get some better photgraphs. Could this plant have poisoned them?

Here's a pic of the mystery plant. It was just marked assorted tropical at Home depot so I dont know what it is.










I have had the plant for 7 months on my shelf and I thouroughly cleaned the leaf of with water and paper towels to get rid of any potential pesticides before putting my pums on the leaf for pics. To clarify I have never used pesticides or anything else on this plant.

It is so wierd because it appears as though the pums just died instantly where the stood. one of them is still hanging on the side of the quarenteen container appearing to be alive, but is dead as a doornail. 

Here is some info on the pums.

1. All pums are in separate plastic storage containers and are not in contact physically or visually with eachother or any other frogs.

2. My temps in my home are 74-78 degrees year round.

3. I feed with calcium and vitamin dusted Melos every other day. 

4. All moss bedding in the containers was new and thouroughly rinsed.

5. All containers were brand new and cleaned thouroughly with scalding hot water.

6. The frogs are away from any windows and do not recieve direct sunlight. 

7. They were misted once dayly and checked to see if they were healthy, active and eating well (which they all were).

8. Light to the quarenteen boxes was only ambient room light.

9. Nothing was ever taken from an existing viv and placed with them.

Somehow I know that their deaths have to be linked to the day that I took pics of them on that plant. How else would all of these frogs undergoing similar curcumstances have died in such quick succesion. BTW, If I remember corectly I never put the surviving man creek on the plant and took pics of him on my hand instead.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

sorry i can't be of much help, but...

except for the flower in the middle, its leaves almost look like those of a peace lily. which contains calcium oxalate crystals which are toxic.

the plant also looks a bit like a bird of paradise plant which is also toxic. it possibly contains hydrocyanic acid.



why a toxic tropical plant would kill a tropical dart frog that in nature lives on and around toxic plants anyway kinda seems odd to me though.


could thier have been something on your hands?


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2006)

If you have the time to go through the pictures, this site has every possible tropical plant sold in the USA. It may take you a while to find yours but it will be there.



http://www.virtualplanttags.com/suite/b ... YP&cat=473


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Any ventilation in the containers?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I was just at the nuursery today and almost bought a plant just like that but backed out. It was called a mandarin spider plant (or Chlorophytum Mandarin) I think. Look at the pics in this link and see if that one looks the same... http://www.twyford.com/showplant.php?plant=103

As far as I have read so far, there are no dangerous interactions, but I didn't look that deep.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

my guess is 
a. temperature swing 
b. stress from oving them to the plant but how long has it been since they were on the plant if it was over 3 days after then i doubt its the plant


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

zaroba said:


> could thier have been something on your hands?


Maybe. I did wash them thouroughly prior to handling them though.



Dancing frogs said:


> Any ventilation in the containers?


Yes small holes were punched in the top. PLus, the tops fit somewhat loose.



sbreland said:


> I was just at the nuursery today and almost bought a plant just like that but backed out. It was called a mandarin spider plant (or Chlorophytum Mandarin) I think. Look at the pics in this link and see if that one looks the same... http://www.twyford.com/showplant.php?plant=103
> 
> As far as I have read so far, there are no dangerous interactions, but I didn't look that deep.


Yep that's the plant.



booboo said:


> my guess is
> a. temperature swing
> b. stress from oving them to the plant but how long has it been since they were on the plant if it was over 3 days after then i doubt its the plant


You know now that I think of it my light timers were off time this morning. I wonder if I had a power outage. My clocks throughout the house are still on time though, so I don't think that is it, but a possibility. I''l ask my parents tomorrow if they reset the clocks. It's not exactly cool here in Arizona right now so if the power went out it could get really hot.

the stress factor is definately a possibility. I just don't see how all of them could have become that stressed. I took them out snapped off a few pics and put them right back. I was finished in just a few minutes. I took them out on sunday, one died on monday and the others died sometime between yesterday and this morning.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Oh, Paul, I'm _so_ sorry to hear of your frogs dying! It's so unfair. Sounds to me as if you were being as responsible as anyone could be. What a tragedy.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

I did find a reference to Chlorophytum spp having saponins, which can be toxic in some instances...see:

http://www.answers.com/topic/saponin?me ... xt=saponin 

and scroll down to the Wikipedia section. Note, though, that other sources say that some Chlorophytum foliage is edible by humans...

Did you save a body for necropsy?


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

c'est ma said:


> Oh, Paul, I'm _so_ sorry to hear of your frogs dying! It's so unfair. Sounds to me as if you were being as responsible as anyone could be. What a tragedy.


thanks Diane, I feel like I did something really stupid by touching them, but i find it so hard to believe that they all died just from that. I never have anything but the best interest in mind for my DFs. there has to be some correlation from that day and there deaths. I really think that they must have come in contact with something. 

I still have the bodies, but at $75 a necropsy on my income is hard to justify.

I've made piece with it though, you just have to let it go. It's not like you can do anything to change it. 

In the future I will not ever touch any frog unless I absolutely have to. the upside is that I have another cristo and rio from Will at thefrogfarm.net coming in next week. fortunately the shipping was delayed which probably spared them the same fate.


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## 955i (Mar 23, 2006)

I have Chlorophytums in with my frogs and have never had a problem, was it in the pot that it came in with the same compost? Could have been something in there.


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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

Maybe it's my experience with reef tanks. I rarely have my hands in my tanks or vivs. IMO, it just adds to the equation another variable that may add stress or contaminants that may affect negatively the inhabitants. 

I feel for you... It just stinks that you don't know exactly what caused the demise... Not knowing would drive me nuts... well at least for a few days..


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

The only problem I have with them coming into contact with something on your hands or the plant is that they all died at about the same time. One would think that each of the frogs would act slightly different and the effects would be a little different depending on their own health.

The containers you have them in are small and changes in temps or humidity would effect them in no time. If there was some type of heat spike it would hit them hard long before any frogs in larger, permanent tanks would be affected. 

Did you notice any signs or changes in the frogs before they died?

Sorry for you loss.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That plant goes by a number of different names, both scientific and cultivar (which usually have something related to Orange thus the Manderin someone mentioned before) but usually I see the reference as _Chlorophytum amaniense (orchidantheroides) _'Fire Flash'. I have this plant in with my frogs and got the plantlet from someone else who have used the plants in his tanks. They are frog plant approved - any toxicity with them is if they are ingested - not a problem with the frogs. The only downer with them on why they are not used in frog tanks more is their size.

I would put money on stress being the major factor, tho an environmental swing may be responsible... I think this because there are some morphs of pumilio that are VERY sensitive to stress - just the stress of trying to catch them can kill them. Zaparo have shown similar responses to stress - I lost a couple due to the stress of transfer and the stress didn't kill them immediately.

We do not know how hardy these pumilio are yet, they are too new. While bastis are easy and handle stress well, and man creeks seem to be up there as well, that does not mean these new imports handle it as well. Yes, just taking them out to photograph them, especially during their highly stressful quarentine period after an incredibly stressful trip to this country in the first place, could have killed them.

Even hardy animals that don't stress easily I never mess with during quarentine. I let them settle into their permenent tanks (couple days to couple weeks depending on how skittish, shy, or easily stressed the animals are - some take longer to adjust than others) and then try and take pics all in tank.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

You know, Paul, I'm not sure but what maybe the saponin angle might bear a little more investigation. I know that sounds ludicrous given that other people mention having these plants in their vivs with no problems, but I've been searching online a little bit and there are some intriguing suggestions.

Perhaps, if you were very zealous in your efforts to clean the leaves before the frogs sat on them, you might have inadvertantly released some saponins from the leaf tissue? (Bear in mind that most of the references I've found talk about saponin being concentrated in bulbs and bark, not leaves. But some refer to extracts from leaves...) Also, perhaps the conditions your plant was growing in--probably more arid than in a viv--served to concentrate the chemical more? All guesses, of course...

But if I were you, I think I'd be tempted to examine this possibility further. Perhaps you can use the "suds test" on a leaf, as described in one of the references below, to see if there are indeed noticeable saponins in the leaves. Then I wonder if there's something small--planaria? earthworms?--that you could experiment with, exposing them to scrubbed and unscrubbed leaves. (Earthworms do have hemoglobin, so if the saponin acts as a hemolysant, you might notice an effect...)

Again, I realize this is far-fetched...but I can't get it out of my mind...

(Note--the following refs are not all "hard-science," as I don't have access to those sorts of databases.)


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5698191.html
(see example 6 near bottom of page--imagine wanting to discourage tree frogs!)

http://www.primitiveways.com/fish_poison.html
"The amount of foam created by a crushed plant sample, shaken with water in a jar, is a good indication of the amount of saponins present."

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/pldec198.htm
In addition, saponins are especially toxic to cold-blooded vertebrates, and crushed soapberry fruits were thrown into ponds and streams to stupefy the fish so that they would float to the surface to be gathered. 

http://www.hole.gs.rl.no/engl/garden/In ... m#Saponine

http://www.emea.eu.int/pdfs/vet/mrls/005595en.pdf

http://www.life.umd.edu/classroom/bsci124/lec30.html



I, too, think it is very interesting that the 3 frogs that died were exposed to this plant.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I still don't see the toxicity of the plant being the cuase of death... I'd expect the frogs to die faster and show noticable poisoning issues and related behaviors, and it just goes agains what I know about "toxic" plants... they dont' work like poison ivy most of the time.

The "toxins" are chemical defenses of the plants to keep things from eating them... usually a really nasty taste. The plants usually have to be injested or at least heavily disturbed for a lot of these to work... a frog on a leaf just isn't doing that (unless you broke a stem and rubbed the frog in the juices, but negative reactions would be pretty fast).

Pothos is a plant that I think everyone uses in thier frog tanks at one time or another - I've used it all the years in the hobby, and people have been using it in the hobby practically since it started... yet the plant is well known for being "toxic" - ingested by young children (or guys on a dare) and pets, it not only tastes bad, but gives you a very nasty reaction... you're not going to keep it down, and I doubt you'll ever mess with that plant... in that way at least... ever again.

With the timing of their deaths, I just don't think the plant is the cause. Stress still seems the most likely cause, or some environmental quirk that got them in their limited environments.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

955i said:


> I have Chlorophytums in with my frogs and have never had a problem, was it in the pot that it came in with the same compost? Could have been something in there.


Yes it has been in the same pot and compost as when I first got it. that's why I wonder if something may still have been on it.



DaSlackMan said:


> Maybe it's my experience with reef tanks. I rarely have my hands in my tanks or vivs. IMO, it just adds to the equation another variable that may add stress or contaminants that may affect negatively the inhabitants.
> 
> I feel for you... It just stinks that you don't know exactly what caused the demise... Not knowing would drive me nuts... well at least for a few days..


Being a reefer myself I usually take the same aproach. That is why this is so agravating. I have neer touched any of my other frogs unless absolutly necessary, and then the one time I do I pay for it big time. I guess with my exitement and wanting to share some good pics of my frogs with everyone I ust didn't take the extra added precaution I noramlly would. Also I think that seeing so many pics of the new morphs on peoples hands may have made me a little less concerned about it (not that I'm trying to pass the buck). Lesson learned.



nburns said:


> The containers you have them in are small and changes in temps or humidity would effect them in no time. If there was some type of heat spike it would hit them hard long before any frogs in larger, permanent tanks would be affected.
> 
> Did you notice any signs or changes in the frogs before they died?
> 
> Sorry for you loss.


Nope, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. In fact they were extremely active and pursued FFs and everything.

Actually FWIW, I keep them in boxes that are 6h x 13L x 10d, so it's not like they were cramped for space.



KeroKero said:


> I would put money on stress being the major factor, tho an environmental swing may be responsible... I think this because there are some morphs of pumilio that are VERY sensitive to stress - just the stress of trying to catch them can kill them. Zaparo have shown similar responses to stress - I lost a couple due to the stress of transfer and the stress didn't kill them immediately.
> 
> We do not know how hardy these pumilio are yet, they are too new. While bastis are easy and handle stress well, and man creeks seem to be up there as well, that does not mean these new imports handle it as well. Yes, just taking them out to photograph them, especially during their highly stressful quarentine period after an incredibly stressful trip to this country in the first place, could have killed them.
> 
> Even hardy animals that don't stress easily I never mess with during quarentine. I let them settle into their permenent tanks (couple days to couple weeks depending on how skittish, shy, or easily stressed the animals are - some take longer to adjust than others) and then try and take pics all in tank.


I agree with your point and feel that it is very valid, and probably the most likely cause. However, I just want to be clear that I was very gentle about the transfer and coxed them getly onto my hand rather than chasing them around. Also I had the cristos and rio for 3 weeks and was about to put them in their new vivs, so It's not like they were "fresh off the boat" so to speak.



c'est ma said:


> Perhaps, if you were very zealous in your efforts to clean the leaves before the frogs sat on them, you might have inadvertantly released some saponins from the leaf tissue? (Bear in mind that most of the references I've found talk about saponin being concentrated in bulbs and bark, not leaves. But some refer to extracts from leaves...) Also, perhaps the conditions your plant was growing in--probably more arid than in a viv--served to concentrate the chemical more? All guesses, of course...


Actually it was just a simple gentle rinse and wipedown so I dont think that it could have caused the plant to leech anything. I'll take a look at the links though.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

That's a pretty costly loss, but a number of people that purchased large quantities of bastis and MCs when they first came in had similar happenings. It's always a risk with WC frogs, even though SNDF did such a great job with their prophylactic treatments. Good luck with the remaining frogs.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Well, I just looked into the last holding container today to find the other mancreek dead. 

Now for the question.

If this is truely stress related? Could a frog that was active and happy looking yesterday die a whole week later?

I am beggining to believe that this is something else entirely, although I could be wrong. Yesterday the mancreek looked great and today it is upside down dead with his mouth gaping open. 

Do you think that it is possible that my room is getting to cold at night? There are no lights over the containers, so could it be that there is not enough heat built up for the night?

I have a small room with a 10' hallway leading out so could it be that there is not enough cold/warm air exchange from my room to the rest of the house? I know that when I close my door for extended periods of time My room heats up like a furnace at night. Probably due to all of the electronics an viv stuff building up heat. To clarify, I do not ever keep my room door closed for that very reason and my family knows to do the same.


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2006)

Could it be some sort of virus? Germ of some type that got transfered between frogs when you picked them up???
Is there anyway for you record the temps in your room at night to see if it is indeed temp related?
Im sorry for your now total loss. Will you be sending the frog for a necropsy?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Hundreds of dollars in dead frogs warrents a 75 dollar necropsy.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I this is truely stress related? Could a frog that was active and happy looking yesterday die a whole week later? "endsnip

Yes. Immunosuppression in anurans (and other herps) through stress can take more than a week (assuming the stressor has resolved) before returning to normal. 

snip "I am beggining to believe that this is something else entirely, although I could be wrong. Yesterday the mancreek looked great and today it is upside down dead with his mouth gaping open"endsnip

I highly doubt that the cause of death was due to toxic interaction with the plants. Many of the plants used in terraria contain various toxins which can cause an animal to become sick or ill if they are ingestes, these toxins do not tend to be excreted onto the leaves as they are there to discourage eating the plant, and as ones like saponins are water soluable, this would be a significant engergy cost to the plant, to continually have to produce sapononins that are then washed off the plant.... The same for the oxalic acid (which by the way is also found in "edible" plants like spinach) etc. 

Without a necropsy there is not way to tell the cause of death, but I would strongly suspect an infectious agent like chytrid or coccidia. 

Ed


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Khamul1of9 said:


> Could it be some sort of virus? Germ of some type that got transfered between frogs when you picked them up???
> Is there anyway for you record the temps in your room at night to see if it is indeed temp related?
> Im sorry for your now total loss. Will you be sending the frog for a necropsy?


Well, I do still have 2 that Will is sending me. So it's not a total loss. I have spoken with some other froggers via email, and they don't seem to think that it is due to disease otherwise it would probably have taken longer to affect them all and there would have been symptoms.

They agree that it seems as though it is related to something on the plant or or something that they came in contact with that day.

Any sugestions on something that could record my room temps?

I probably will send out the most recent man creek for a necropsy.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Paul E. Wog said:


> I probably will send out the most recent man creek for a necropsy.


I would highly suggest doing that before buying any more frogs!


As for recording room temps, go to Radio Shack and buy a high/low thermometer. I'm sure other places have similar units but that's where i got mine. There are also more expensive data logging units if you're interested. Just search "data logger" and you will get a few threads.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

I agree, definately get a necropsy. I do believe it was stress as well though, especially since they are WC.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I definitely concur with the necropsy. Unless you have a local vet or pathologist willing to do a necropsy on a small frog, you will need to go with one of the big labs, and the frog will need to be preserved in formalin. This needs to be done very quickly as they will rot very fast. If you want to have any chance of getting a successful necropsy report, I would put the frog in the fridge now, and get some formalin to put it in first thing in the morning. I have seen larger frogs go from living to puddle of slime in 48 hours.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

where can I get formalin?


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Jordan B said:


> I do believe it was stress as well though, especially since they are WC.


even a whole week later with the last frog eating fine and everything?

Edit: sorry Ed I missed your post adressing this.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Get formalin from a vet's office, they use it for preserving tissue samples for biopsy.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Catfur said:


> Get formalin from a vet's office, they use it for preserving tissue samples for biopsy.


I'm gonna call a few of the offices that work with small reptiles in my area tomorow and see if they can do the necropsy. If not I will get some formalin from them and ship it to Dr. Frye.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Unless you already have a contact set up with a vet who will do necropsies (and doesn't want them in formalin), the frog needs to go in formalin yesterday, not tommorow (I.E. ASAP).


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't think Dr. Frye still does necropsies. And yes, it is possible for it to die a whole week later with it eating fine, etc, as Ed said. Especially with a WC frog, which even after being treated would almost certainly retain all sorts of things which either were not killed by treatment, or were supressed and were able to take over when the frog stressed out. Was there any airflow in the quarantine containers?

About the toxic plants, if i'm not mistaken fantasticus live and breed on some toxic dieffenbachia species in the wild. 

Jordan


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## Ashli (Aug 28, 2005)

zaroba said:


> sorry i can't be of much help, but...
> 
> except for the flower in the middle, its leaves almost look like those of a peace lily. which contains calcium oxalate crystals which are toxic.
> 
> ...


I have a peace lilly in with my Auratus (uh..now i'm thinking about taking it out) and it doesn't look anything like this plant.

Sorry for your losses


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Unless the frog is consuming the plant, plants like peace lilies (Spathophyllum spp) are safe for frogs. I have used these for almost 15 years at work with a variety of anurans without any problems. (and all deaths go to a board certified veterinary pathologist for necropsy and histopath). 

If someone is that concerned about the potential toxicity of the plants in your tanks, then I suggest stripping all the plants out (as most plants contain some kind of toxin to help prevent being consumed by herbivores and omnivores) and replacing it with lettuce, some grasses and wandering jew...... 

Ed


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Sorry everyone, But I just went through some really unexpected, major expenses today and spent my self down to hardly anything. I'm not trying to make excuses, I really wanted to get the necropsy done and had a page full of phone numbers of vets to call today; but now I have no money to do it with. that's no exageration either, I literally have only about 30 bucks left to my name.
This is extremely frustrating for me, I want some closure over the loss of my frogs, but there is just no way for me to pull this off. My income is completely spent until I get my next paycheck. 

If I can afford to put some fromalin on a credit card, how long will the frog last till I am able to pay for a necropsy? I have had the frog in a cooler packed tightly with ice packs since it died, so hopefully it will last.


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## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

Sorry, but freezing the frog ruins the necropsy. I believe Dr. Frey used to recommend refrigerator, but "packed tightly in ice packs" may be excessive.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I believe that once the frog is appropriately preserved, you should have all the time you need until you can come up with the dough for the histopathy.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

JoshKaptur said:


> Sorry, but freezing the frog ruins the necropsy. I believe Dr. Frey used to recommend refrigerator, but "packed tightly in ice packs" may be excessive.


I may have over stated that a bit. The frog is cold, not frozen.

I'm going to try and see if I can afford some formalin today.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Dane said:


> I believe that once the frog is appropriately preserved, you should have all the time you need until you can come up with the dough for the histopathy.


Dane can you define histopathy? I can't find the definition on dictionary.com.
It's just one part of a necropsy which would include a histopothy, disection, examination of the gut content etc right?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I use it to define post-mortem tissue analysis.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The correct words are histopath or histopathology. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histopathology

With respect to the frog, the sooner it is placed into formalin the better because, even refrigerated the tissues begin to degrade after death reducing the ability to perform a good diagnosis. 

Ed


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

Paul-

I'm very sorry for you loss. Contact Dr. Wright. He gave me a container of formalin last time I was at his office, to have on hand. I believe he told me the necropsy through his office was around $50, but I could be wrong.
His office number is 480-968-9275.

Are all your other frogs o.k.? If so, where they in the same room as the pum's?


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

AZDR_A said:


> Paul-
> 
> I'm very sorry for you loss. Contact Dr. Wright. He gave me a container of formalin last time I was at his office, to have on hand. I believe he told me the necropsy through his office was around $50, but I could be wrong.
> His office number is 480-968-9275.
> ...


Thanks Amanda, All of my other frogs are doing fantastic. They were all in the same room with my other frogs and were on a sepparate rack. other than that, they were all pretty close together against the same wall. 

I went to two vets closer to me in between classes this past week and was told that it was illegal to sell or give away formalin by both of them. This has really been a rough week for me. I have been so busy with graduation and getting all of my stuff together I just coudn't find the time to get over to Dr. Wright's office. 

Does anybody know of a way to test a leaf for pesticides? I have had the plant since december 05 so I wouldn't think that it would have any active poison left, especially after rinsing the leaf off. I just want to be sure.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Stress....*

Paul,

1st I want to tell you how sorry I am to hear you lost the pumilio. That really bites. I get upset even when I loose a baby auratus. After reading everyone's posts I wanted to make a couple of comments.

*The Plants*
Peace Lilies and the plants used for the pictures are not bad to use in frog tanks. If anything, they grow too well, and need trimmed often. I have trimmed some of my peace lilies to the ground with no till effects to my frogs. This is not the answer. Do not let this post scare anyone from using these plants.

*Stress*
You stated your room is subject to temperature swings - which are a major stress event to frogs. Like Nate suggested, the fact they were in smaller containers multiples the stress on the animals because there isn't any type of 'heat sink' or matter to help slow a temperature swing. We have found, there is usually a 2 week window following a stressful event where the frogs are susceptible to getting sick and dieing. If you make it past the 2 week window, without seeing any outwards signs of stress (including death) your frogs will be ok. 

Think about how our bodies react to stress… how many college students get sick during spring break the week after finals? 


Let’s look at some other possible stressors:

1.	Can you be sure there wasn’t a temperature spike during shipping?
2.	How long had you had the frogs?
3.	How often were you picking up the containers and looking at these guys? Or did you just feed them, and leave them alone for the first couple of weeks.
4.	You mentioned you took the frogs and photographed them on the plant:
a.	How did you transport them to the plant? 
b.	Did you touch them with your hands? 

Hope this doesn’t come across too negative, but I think stress was the major factor in their death. There are so many sources of stress; beating your self up about finding 1 source will not do any good. 

If anything should be learned, is never spend more money then you are willing or able to loose with your frog purchases. Stuff happens, even to the most experienced keepers. We ALL have made mistakes like this!!!


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