# What substrate



## RandalG (Nov 7, 2008)

I recently had and accident and need to redo my viv. I've been using peat bricks but have found them impossible to find. So I'm looking for an alternate substrate I can use this time. I currently have a pump that pumps water up to a waterfall in the back wall. Probably about 3/4 land and 1/4 water. I have quite a bit of shoreline so the peat bricks worked well. Here is an older pic. To the right there is a cave where I have the heater and pump filter. Any suggestions as I'm not sure what people use these days.?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ABG mix from Josh's frogs is hands down the best traditional style substrate. Here is the recipe. 

1 part milled peat

1 part milled sphagnum moss

1 part fine charcoal (sometimes more)

2 parts fine tree fern fiber

2 parts fine orchid bark

I use a good bit more charcoal in mine.

The other great substrate would be clay. Here is the thread on clay. Rather labor intensive, especially on the first batch. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html
Doug


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Maybe create a 'bank' out of treefern and black zip ties, then backfill with the traditional leca/substrate later?


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## RandalG (Nov 7, 2008)

I was thinking about making a shoreline of the foam I see people using in their viv's and back filling with substrate. Is there a certain brand people use or is the stuff at Home Depot ok to use. It seems like that stuff may have chemicals in it that can leach into the water but I may be wrong


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## RandalG (Nov 7, 2008)

After looking around some it seems like my idea of making a foam shoreline may not work. I see where a lot of people use it for backgrounds but not for an area that's going to be underwater all the time. Especially if I wanted to use silicon and coco fiber. My guess is it may not last. Is that the case if anyone has any experience with that.


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

Im a little confused as to what purpose the charcoal serves? Is this used instead of sand? Charcoal I know is used to pull impurities out but eventually it loses its effectiveness.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Saviorself said:


> Im a little confused as to what purpose the charcoal serves? Is this used instead of sand? Charcoal I know is used to pull impurities out but eventually it loses its effectiveness.


To some extent it helps to sweeten the substrate (keeps it fresh) but yes, it would eventually lose its ability to do that. It would also function similar to sand, being very well drained, but different in that it can hold some water.
It has been used for years in orchid mixes which need to be very well drained so it serves well in our vivs too.
I think that by the time it would lose its ability to sweeten the soil, your viv should be very well grown in, and the plants can take over that function, nicely "filtering" the soil with their roots and using it as fertilizer.
Doug


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Interesting - I always thought the ABG mix was from Atlanta Botanical Garden.

s


Pumilo said:


> ABG mix from Josh's frogs is hands down the best traditional style substrate.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I haven't seen a viv from vivaria.nl in ages. That is sweet.

s


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

It is but they sell it Scott. Doug is just telling him that Joshs frogs carries it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> ABG mix from Josh's frogs is hands down the best traditional style substrate.





Scott said:


> Interesting - I always thought the ABG mix was from Atlanta Botanical Garden.
> 
> s





vivlover10 said:


> It is but they sell it Scott. Doug is just telling him that Joshs frogs carries it.


Thanks, Vivlover, That is exactly what I meant. It was developed at Atlanta Botanical Garden (thus the name, ABG), but you can purchase it, premixed so you don't have to buy all the components, from Josh's frogs. I suppose I did word that so that it sounded like Josh's frogs developed it. Oops, misunderstood shortcut. 
Doug


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> To some extent it helps to sweeten the substrate (keeps it fresh) but yes, it would eventually lose its ability to do that. It would also function similar to sand, being very well drained, but different in that it can hold some water.
> It has been used for years in orchid mixes which need to be very well drained so it serves well in our vivs too.
> I think that by the time it would lose its ability to sweeten the soil, your viv should be very well grown in, and the plants can take over that function, nicely "filtering" the soil with their roots and using it as fertilizer.
> Doug


Can I assume this is the same charcoal thats used in aquarium canister filters?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Saviorself said:


> Can I assume this is the same charcoal thats used in aquarium canister filters?


Yes and no. Aquariums use a higher grade that is much more expensive. Aquarium grade is actually Activated Carbon. It will work but it's kind of like using caviar instead of Salmon eggs for fishing! If you just happen to have some lying around its fine. Otherwise just get charcoal from the garden center at Lowes or any garden center. It's even cheaper to get Cowboy brand Charcoal (right beside the kingsford) for grilling and break it up with a hammer into smaller pieces. I like to use a grade about 1/4 inch size. When I break it up myself I end up with a big mix of sizes and that's fine too. I'll get pieces about 1/4 to 1/2 inch...some bigger and some smaller. I just try to avoid lots and lots of tiny grains as part of the goal here is that the bigger pieces create small air pockets in the soil, helping with drainage.

One other thing I forgot to mention about charcoal is that it breaks down extremely slowly, so many years later, it's still doing its job, long after components like orchid bark, have broken down.
Doug


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Yes and no. Aquariums use a higher grade that is much more expensive. Aquarium grade is actually Activated Carbon. It will work but it's kind of like using caviar instead of Salmon eggs for fishing! If you just happen to have some lying around its fine. Otherwise just get charcoal from the garden center at Lowes or any garden center. It's even cheaper to get Cowboy brand Charcoal (right beside the kingsford) for grilling and break it up with a hammer into smaller pieces. I like to use a grade about 1/4 inch size. When I break it up myself I end up with a big mix of sizes and that's fine too. I'll get pieces about 1/4 to 1/2 inch...some bigger and some smaller. I just try to avoid lots and lots of tiny grains as part of the goal here is that the bigger pieces create small air pockets in the soil, helping with drainage.
> 
> One other thing I forgot to mention about charcoal is that it breaks down extremely slowly, so many years later, it's still doing its job, long after components like orchid bark, have broken down.
> Doug


Good lookin out! Thats the stuff I usually use for grilling so I know exactly what your talking about 

As far as the broken up leaf litter to mix in would it be better to add something like the magnolia leaves which if I remeber correctly break down slower?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Saviorself said:


> Good lookin out! Thats the stuff I usually use for grilling so I know exactly what your talking about
> 
> As far as the broken up leaf litter to mix in would it be better to add something like the magnolia leaves which if I remeber correctly break down slower?


Remember that we are talking about solid "burnt wood" for charcoal, not the formed stuff like Kingsford.

Leaf litter? I didn't mention leaf litter. There is no leaf litter mixed into ABG mix. That doesn't mean it would not be an interesting ammendment. In fact, I do mix leaf litter into ABG mix that I use for culturing Isopods. In my viv I just do the traditional ABG mis with LOTS of leaf litter on top. You could certainly mix some in but I would still use leaf litter on top for the hiding places for bugs and frogs. 

I use mostly Oak leaves as I have an Oak in my back yard that has not been sprayed with anything for 15 years! I did buy a big box of magnolia for bigger leaves to hide under. (my frogs...not me!!)
Doug


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## Saviorself (Jun 29, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Remember that we are talking about solid "burnt wood" for charcoal, not the formed stuff like Kingsford.
> 
> Leaf litter? I didn't mention leaf litter. There is no leaf litter mixed into ABG mix. That doesn't mean it would not be an interesting ammendment. In fact, I do mix leaf litter into ABG mix that I use for culturing Isopods. In my viv I just do the traditional ABG mis with LOTS of leaf litter on top. You could certainly mix some in but I would still use leaf litter on top for the hiding places for bugs and frogs.
> 
> ...


I must have been getting threads mixed up


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Saviorself said:


> I must have been getting threads mixed up


Yeah, you probably saw one of the "bugs" posts I've made recently.
Doug


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Shredded (and I mean through a blender) oak leaves are a wonderful addition to the ABG mix.

And the carbon in question - you'll normally find with sphagnum moss and peat moss, etc - at a lawn/garden department in a big store.

s


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