# Vid of Azureus following leuc



## DendroMan420 (Jul 6, 2010)

Hi, about a year ago i set up a community tank for dendrobates azureus and leucomelas and so far they have been doing great. Ive never seen them act aggressive to eachother and they just mind their own buisness. About a month ago i found out one of my leucs is a male because he calls more then 10 times a day. Im pretty sure my one azureus is a female because she has smaller toepads. Anyways today i seen the azureus follow the leuc around the tank and would react when he would call and would follow right behind him. The azureus was always curious with the male but it seems that shes trying to get his attention but he doesnt care. Heres a video of what they were doing today.


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## Gumby (May 27, 2010)

Judging by the body shape of the Azureus I would agree that she is a Female. Also you can hear call of duty playin in the background hehe


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm going to say this in a nice way - go read some threads about mixing please...


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Oh my incredible can of worms.... My advice? Split the two up while you can still avoid becoming the next pariah of the dart frog hobby.


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## DendroMan420 (Jul 6, 2010)

Okay, ive researched about mixing dart frogs for years and i know that if you have a big enough viv then you can successfully keep leucs and azureus together. Yes they can breed but i can tell you i wont be selling any of the babies if they do. Personally i dont see what the issue is because they come from the same family and yet i see people mix different species in community tanks all of the time.


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

DendroMan420 said:


> Okay, ive researched about mixing dart frogs for years and i know that if you have a big enough viv then you can successfully keep leucs and azureus together. Yes they can breed but i can tell you i wont be selling any of the babies if they do. Personally i dont see what the issue is because they come from the same family and yet i see people mix different species in community tanks all of the time.



ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your crazy!!!!!!! It would be different if you had two males, well sort of...but willing to breed them is just plain stupidity and crazy...Thats great your not willing to sell them but what will you do when you get 50+ hybrids??? You will get more than that over time. Im surprised you even had the balls to post what you did... enjoy the can of worms you have just opened


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

WOW!!! People never fail to amaze me. Speechless.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

lol..............


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> My advice? Split the two up while you can still avoid becoming the next pariah of the dart frog hobby.


At least you can say you tried.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

DendroMan420 said:


> Okay, ive researched about mixing dart frogs for years and i know that if you have a big enough viv then you can successfully keep leucs and azureus together. Yes they can breed but i can tell you i wont be selling any of the babies if they do. Personally i dont see what the issue is because they come from the same family and yet i see people mix different species in community tanks all of the time.


Ok I'll play the nice guy and try to explain to you why people have such a problem with this without getting emotional about it. 

First I'll say that personally if it was 2 males or 2 females in a large tank I wouldn't have a huge problem with it. But you have mixed opposite sexes of species known to produce hybrids. As far as the majority of the community is concerned that is one of the cardinal sins of our hobby. Then you posted a video of it which is either ballsy or insane or shows you don't have much knowledge about the community.

If you search the forums about mixing species and hybrids you will find all kinds of reasons it is a bad idea usually...from perspectives of the frogs and offspring's health, how these frogs accidentally or purposely make it into the hobby and make it harder for any of us to be reasonably sure what we think we are buying is what we actually get, all the variables there are to consider when doing a responsible mixed tank (something many would argue doesn't exist) etc...etc.... 

Most people who do mix which is not the majority at least try to mix 2 species that can't produce hybrids and will stay out of each others way like imis and vittatus or something. If you are a responsible keeper you will search for those threads, read through them and likely reconsider your actions. If you aren't even willing to do more research as to why this is a bad idea, especially in this case then I question your ethics and concern for your animals, as I suspect almost everyone here will also. 

What are you going to do with the froglets if they do breed? Just keep all the babies, give them to your friends? are you going to put in your will that these frogs should be destroyed upon your death, or at least never released into the hobby?...Even if you have the best of intentions and take extreme measures to make sure these never enter the hobby short of killing them you put the integrity of other animals in the hobby and of us all at risk. And for no other reason then your own selfish desire to see 2 different species in the same tank. It doesn't benefit the animals, there is some risk of stress and you aren't even making an attempt to mix responsibly, doing it with species that can't interbreed and/or tend to inhabit different parts of the tank.

The vast majority of very knowledgeable and experienced keepers will tell you this is a very bad idea and ultimately selfish especially in this case. Do you really think you are qualified to say they don't know what they are talking about? I have to wonder how extensive your research was if you didn't even know this would be something that would anger the majority of the community and basically make you a social outcast if you continue doing it. This board is one of the best research avenues open to you, yet you seem to have been unaware how people would react so I have to wonder how well you've taken advantage of the resources here or even in other forums...If you didn't take extensive advantage of them where did you do all this research?

This isn't just about you mixing, it is about this being some of the worst kind of mixing. About the only way you could make it worse is add more frogs and other species and make the tank smaller. 

Yes this was the short and nice version, believe it or not.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

BTW if you wanna get out of this situation as smoothly as possible you will just say something like "wow, I didn't know it was that big of a deal or understand all the risks...I'm sorry I'll separate them asap. I'll review the threads on mixing also. Thanks for the heads up." Seriously man there is no other way out of this if you hope to have the respect of the majority of people here and be a welcomed and valued member of the hobby community. I'm sincerely trying to help you out here. I made a lot of mistakes starting out, things that seemed perfectly fine to me, but as I grew in knowledge and experience I came to realize just how irresponsible I'd been at times and altered my methodology.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

My advise, is you just shouldn't of posted this.... If you have read about mixing species on this board, then you would of found it is an extreamly debated topic and many people get pretty upset about this topic.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I reviewed his past posts...he knew, he has been told by several people that such things are a bad idea in other threads. His "research" skills are also in serious doubt IMO. I honestly can't conceive of how anyone who was well informed about mixing could think this was an acceptable idea, or believe the community would accept it. 

I'm pretty liberal, I don't really care if people mix as long as they pick species and sex ratios responsibly, use a large viv and don't over populate it but this guy failed on a very basic level. 2 different frog species of opposite sexes that can breed and do inhabit the same niches in the tank. Verdict = Irresponsible Mixing fail.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Tony said:


> At least you can say you tried.


This I can say... too bad his last post screwed him to the wall....

Let's go through just a few things. First, how big is the tank? I'm willing to bet it's not big enough. Also, you understand that from the look of that video there's not just a "they can breed," but instead a "they're probably breeding _right now_," right? Also, you realize that just because they come from the same "family" doesn't mean they come from the same _locality_ (and thus don't interact in the wild), right? When you say you see "people" mix different species in community tanks all the time, what are you talking about? Zoos? You're not a zoo. Animals that aren't dart frogs? Well, we're talking about dart frogs, not the mutts in the rest of the herp hobby. Other dart frog breeders? Then you're hanging out with the wrong crowd... but, on the bright side, at least you'll have a little company when the serious breeders start ignoring you!


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I agree with you 100% Dave. Well if this guy knew this was a heated topic, and still wanted to post this, it seems like he is TRYING to get people all worked up about this. I suggest we just ignore this thread and this guy....


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

DendroMan420 said:


> Hi, about a year ago i set up a community tank for dendrobates azureus and leucomelas and so far they have been doing great. Ive never seen them act aggressive to eachother and they just mind their own buisness. About a month ago i found out one of my leucs is a male because he calls more then 10 times a day. Im pretty sure my one azureus is a female because she has smaller toepads. Anyways today i seen the azureus follow the leuc around the tank and would react when he would call and would follow right behind him. *The azureus was always curious with the male but it seems that shes trying to get his attention but he doesnt care.*


The male doesn't care? Have you had frog's breed before? 

He is calling and trying to lead the female to a laying sight...It's textbook my friend. He indeed, is VERY interested in her.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

I was about to post and say this guy has to be a troll because of how blatant it was...but then I found this:


DendroMan420 said:


> I dont know the sexes of the frogs but im think i have 1 male because it has larger toe pads if thats correct. I do want to breed dart frogs and if they crossbreed then they crossbreed, ive seen the leuc x azureus hybrid and they look pretty wicked. All im sayin is if they happen to breed then id rather have the eggs safe then none at all.


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

I was unaware that a leuc and an azureus where able to produce offspring. Also dude I can fix your problem just sell me your leuc I have a plumped up female waiting for a mate.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

saruchan said:


> I was unaware that a leuc and an azureus where able to produce offspring. Also dude I can fix your problem just sell me your leuc I have a plumped up female waiting for a mate.


Leucs, auratus, and tinctorius are all capable of interbreeding. _D. truncatus _may fit in there too being a member of the same genus but I don't know for sure on them.


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

Crazzy totally didnt know that thanks!


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Ill try to be nice here..........
What happened to your other D. azureus? In this post on a previous thread, you said you had 2:



DendroMan420 said:


> Hey everyone, i have a quick question about feeding. I have 4 cultures that have alot of maggots but no fruit flies because i ran out. I put a container outside with fruit in it and today i noticed alot in there. Would it be okay to feed those to dart frogs? I have 2 leucs and 2 azereus, it it safe or harmful? I would also like to know if i could put them in my cultures to get more larvae.


It honestly seems that every thread you start is trolling... They are about one of three things:
1)Mixing and trying to breed azureus with leucomelas.
When people try to help you you say they are hating, or talk about how 'wicked' a hybrid dart would look.
2)Mixing a native frog with dart frogs. 
Then asking which tree frog could be mixed with darts, even though you have stated that you have kept red eyes and therefore should know that they occupy an arboreal niche.
3)Running out of fruit flies... repeatedly.
While asking repeatedly how long it takes for cultures to produce flies, which you should know through your research that you 'do on everything you need to know before you do it" as stated in the quote below:



DendroMan420 said:


> Anyways I do my research on everything i need to know before i do it and i know that if you have a large enough tank then you can mix some species of dendrobates like leucomelas and azureus.


I can understand running out of flies on occasion, but most people culture more than is needed, in addition to having alternate food sources in case of a culture crash.

Every thread starts out with you posting something to troll the community, people being nice and offering advice, then you replying that you know what your doing, and the community getting mad.

The goal of this community is to save some delicate species from extinction, which will happen if the rain forests continue to be destroyed. If you do your research, we dont even mix the same species from different collection locations, to insure that subspecies and local populations remain pure.

I would recommended that you separate your frogs and look into the 'wicked' colors and patterns produced by leopard geckos if you really want to continue mixing different morphs and producing crosses. At least with leopard geckos we already know that multiple subspecies were mixed in the initial imports over 30 years ago, making all of them hybrids. Crossing different LG morphs is looked highly upon in that community, unless you cross one of the three distinct amelanistic bloodlines. Then you'd be in the same boat as here...


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Okapi said:


> It honestly seems that every thread you start is trolling... They are about one of three things:
> 1)Mixing and trying to breed azureus with leucomelas.
> When people try to help you you say they are hating, or talk about how 'wicked' a hybrid dart would look.
> 2)Mixing a native frog with dart frogs.
> ...


With these kinds of facts floating around does it make anyone else wonder if they're in a parallel universe where time just _drags_ _on_ when you see something like this:



DendroMan420 said:


> Okay, ive researched about mixing dart frogs for years


Where did all of those years go!? I could've sworn you just joined this June!


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## DendroMan420 (Jul 6, 2010)

ok i can tell noones with me on this lol but im just gonna explain a couple things, im not a troll or anything. Just because i joined this year doesnt mean i get all of my information from here, i just wanted to share a video with you guys which obviously was a mistake because i thought there were some people on this forum that realize its okay to have a mixed tank with dart frogs that do well together. Its just been a dream of mine to set up a big vivarium and make it look all natural and eventually add a couple dart frogs to the viv. Im not selfish because i want 2 different dart frogs in the same viv, i just wanted to do it right instead of mixing any. ive researched for 5 + years on dart frogs and mixing and i found out leucomelas and azureus can be kept in the same viv from many articles and forums i read online. 

I bought 2 leuc froglets and 2 azureus froglets and housed them in the same viv for a year, its a year later and the azureus turned out to be female and the leuc is a male. And yes i had another azureus but sadly it drowned when it was still a froglet. I know that mixing any species either reptile or amphibian could turn out bad and thats why all of my other animals are in their own separate enclosure.
I am taking an interest in dart frogs and plan to buy more but they will all have their own viv and i will not mix any more frogs, even to the mixed tank i have right now. I just dont see the problem in mixing leucs and azureus because its been done successfully and mine are doing great. I agree with the points you make Dave as for them producing hybrids, i will separate if things go outta hand. Its not like ill be selling or giving any of them to my friends. Ive read forums when people sold hybrids they produced and they get bitched at, but i assure you i will be keeping all. 

frogfreak, ive never bred dart frogs so i actually wasnt sure what she was doing but thanks for that info. I apologize if my posts or my other threads makes me a troll but actually i just want to know the info because sometimes i cant find it on the google, i asked how long does it take for larvae to turn into fruitflies because i couldnt find the right answer and i knew if i asked on the forum then someone could help me out. Ive had troubles with fruitfly cultures in the past because i never made my own i just bought them from the store, then i realized i had to start making my own cultures because the store i got them from only orders them and takes a week or 2 to get in, and they cost $15 each. I make my own cultures now i have the hang of it, i wont be running out any time soon.

I asked about mixing red eyes with dart frogs a while ago, i realize its obviously not a smart thing to do because you can end up with no dart frogs the next morning, i just wanted to know thats all, i was just curious if any tree frog can be kept in a dart frog tank because they're nocturnal and dart frogs arent. And that makes me a troll? Its just a question if it could be done. I was always fascinated about amphibians, even when i was a kid i got my first firebelly frogs and my hobby grew from there. I just always wanted to make one vivarium that looked like a tropical forest and was big enough to be a community tank for a couple dart frogs that can be housed in the same viv, and thats what i did. I will not be mixing any more dart frogs and eventually ill separate the azureus from the leucs.


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

you basically have dug a HUGE hole for yourself, and youd be lucky if a few people step out to help you from here on out. Sadly, I think by this point most people dont care for you and your views in mixing species, especially if it has been done before.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

> I will not be mixing any more dart frogs and eventually ill separate the azureus from the leucs.


Very glad to hear this!


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

You say you have been "researching" about PDFs for 5+ years and then you say that you didn't know that's what mating behavior looked like!!!!!? I read your other posts and it does seems like you are trolling and don't really care what others really have to say. You ask the question and then at the end after getting all the advice against it you are still asking if it can be done! If you really wanted to mix then you should've gotten into the some other hobby like stated before.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

DendroMan420 said:


> ok i can tell noones with me on this lol but im just gonna explain a couple things, im not a troll or anything. Just because i joined this year doesnt mean i get all of my information from here, i just wanted to share a video with you guys which obviously was a mistake because i thought there were some people on this forum that realize its okay to have a mixed tank with dart frogs that do well together. Its just been a dream of mine to set up a big vivarium and make it look all natural and eventually add a couple dart frogs to the viv. Im not selfish because i want 2 different dart frogs in the same viv, i just wanted to do it right instead of mixing any. ive researched for 5 + years on dart frogs and mixing and i found out leucomelas and azureus can be kept in the same viv from many articles and forums i read online.
> 
> I bought 2 leuc froglets and 2 azureus froglets and housed them in the same viv for a year, its a year later and the azureus turned out to be female and the leuc is a male. And yes i had another azureus but sadly it drowned when it was still a froglet. I know that mixing any species either reptile or amphibian could turn out bad and thats why all of my other animals are in their own separate enclosure.
> I am taking an interest in dart frogs and plan to buy more but they will all have their own viv and i will not mix any more frogs, even to the mixed tank i have right now. I just dont see the problem in mixing leucs and azureus because its been done successfully and mine are doing great. I agree with the points you make Dave as for them producing hybrids, i will separate if things go outta hand. Its not like ill be selling or giving any of them to my friends. Ive read forums when people sold hybrids they produced and they get bitched at, but i assure you i will be keeping all.
> ...


I think your definition of "successful" (from a person with minimum DF experience) and ours (a group of people with a ton of collective experience and a huge knowledge base) ...Is much different. 

Can they survive together? ...Yes. But there are a ton of potential issues. Issues that seasoned keepers would likely have some difficulty with so what makes you think you are really qualified to risk your animals when far more qualified people tell you it is a bad idea? To me that suggests arrogance and when you add that to the fact that you are totally ok with producing hybrids which may find their way into the hobby at some point it also suggest selfishness. 

These frogs can live over 10 years...can you guarantee us you won't die, or be seriously injured or financially no longer able to care for your animals and that any person they go to will 100% respect your wishes and never release them into the hobby? If not you put the integrity of every other frog out there that could breed with those in jeopardy and you do it for no other reason then your own selfishness. If you truly agree with even some of the points I made I don't see how you can continue down this road and reasonably claim you are not being selfish and/or arrogant. You've already ignored advice from far more experienced and knowledgeable people and completely disregarded the wishes of a large community of people in the hobby. 2 excellent examples of probable arrogance and selfishness. 

As you said, pretty much no one is with you on this...and yet you still think you are in the right. At the very least any reasonable person would admit the odds are against that and it is completely reasonable for people to think you are arrogant when so many experienced and knowledgeable people say you are wrong (for so many reasons).

I would love to see these sources that say it is ok for luecs and azuerus to live together. Can you please post links? There is often a huge difference between what can be done and what should be done. You are putting your animals at risk, and our entire hobby at risk because of your own selfish desire, yet you don't seem to realize it truly and worse you don't seem to care. Simple as that. You will get very little respect from the majority of people here or anywhere in the USA dart frog hobby for those reasons. Congrats!


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

DendroMan420 said:


> frogfreak, ive never bred dart frogs so i actually wasnt sure what she was doing but thanks for that info.


Welcome, and now you know.

What now? Are you going to seperate them or potentially let them breed?

I hope you choose to seperate them...


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> Welcome, and now you know.
> 
> What now? Are you going to seperate them or potentially let them breed?
> 
> I hope you choose to seperate them...


He said in his previous post: he's going to leave them in there, let them breed, keep the offspring, and when the breeding gets "out of hand" _then_ he'll decide to separate the two.

The last guy who said it was okay to hybridize/outsource his frogs and that he was just going to keep all of his... well... didn't. Most people's longevity in the hobby is also very short. You'll have to forgive me if I don't take you at your word when you say you'll be keeping all of your hybrids for their lifetime.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dendroman420 :

1. Can you post links to these other forums or anywhere on the interweb were you received your "mixing" information?

2. What part of the country are you located? If you are uneasy about giving a city or state, that's understandable, but can you at least indicate what area....i.e....midwest, Great Lakes, SoCal.....

The responsible breeders and hobbyists deserve to be made aware of areas where probable mixed species frogs are, so we can help protect and safeguard new hobbyists. You can understand our concern on this matter, I hope.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Dendroman420 :
> 
> 1. Can you post links to these other forums or anywhere on the interweb were you received your "mixing" information?
> 
> ...


Agreed, I decided to do a quick search, and came up with this...
Azureas X leucomelas
honestly, I think this is a sad excuse to make a hybrid, IMO it doesn't even look good...


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Id agree with Philsuma...Just tell us your locale so that 

#1) we dont buy from you

and 

#2) we dont sell to you

Thanks!


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Apparently you lost the other leucomelas too. Fifty percent survival from froglet to adult does not, IMHO, sound like they "are doing great".


DendroMan420 said:


> I bought *2 leuc *froglets and 2 azureus froglets and housed them in the same viv for a year .... and mine are doing great.


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## DendroMan420 (Jul 6, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> You say you have been "researching" about PDFs for 5+ years and then you say that you didn't know that's what mating behavior looked like!!!!!? I read your other posts and it does seems like you are trolling and don't really care what others really have to say. You ask the question and then at the end after getting all the advice against it you are still asking if it can be done! If you really wanted to mix then you should've gotten into the some other hobby like stated before.


Ive never experienced or seen mating behavior for pdfs, like i said these are my first dart frogs, i had them when they were young and now there showing mating behavior.

I can guarantee i will live to my 30s.. I know people give up on the hobby and sell their collection, but i know ill be in this hobby for the rest of my life. 
I dont ignore information from anyone, Ive learned alot from here and i use the info. I will start setting up another vivarium and i will separate them. Im not a selfish person i was just confident it would work and i thought it wasnt a big deal for leucs and an azureus to breed, I know its wrong to be mixing any dart frogs because alot of people are against hybrids but to be honest i thought breeding leucs and azureus was more common and people didnt care. But im wrong so ill separate them as soon as i have the viv finished. I do want whats best for my frogs and the community so if by any chance theres eggs in the viv, what then?


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

DendroMan420 said:


> I do want whats best for my frogs and the community so if by any chance theres eggs in the viv, what then?


Cull 'em.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

DendroMan420 said:


> so if by any chance theres eggs in the viv, what then?


cull them, kill them, let them dry out...


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## DendroMan420 (Jul 6, 2010)

yea i thought so ill remove and kill all eggs i find.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

DendroMan420 said:


> I can guarantee i will live to my 30s..


LOL 

How's that? Know someone upstairs...


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> LOL
> 
> How's that? Know someone upstairs...


HAHAHAHAHA

maybe the found the FF culture of life


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

DendroMan420 said:


> Ive never experienced or seen mating behavior for pdfs, like i said these are my first dart frogs, i had them when they were young and now there showing mating behavior.
> 
> I can guarantee i will live to my 30s.. I know people give up on the hobby and sell their collection, but i know ill be in this hobby for the rest of my life.
> I dont ignore information from anyone, Ive learned alot from here and i use the info. I will start setting up another vivarium and i will separate them. Im not a selfish person i was just confident it would work and i thought it wasnt a big deal for leucs and an azureus to breed, I know its wrong to be mixing any dart frogs because alot of people are against hybrids but to be honest i thought breeding leucs and azureus was more common and people didnt care. But im wrong so ill separate them as soon as i have the viv finished. I do want whats best for my frogs and the community so if by any chance theres eggs in the viv, what then?


I'd like know what magic you have that lets you defy all chance of death and financial ruin for various periods of time with 100% certainty but as for the rest of that if it is true I applaud you for admitting your mistake and doing the right thing. You just got a ton of respect points.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> LOL
> 
> How's that? Know someone upstairs...


I was gonna point that out when I first read it as well but I figured i'd let it slide


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

I had a question sorry if I sound unintelligent. But I thought hybrid animals weren't able to procreate? Like I said I have no idea if its different with amphibians but if they were sterile then what wold be the problem with them affecting or diminishing the "pure lines". I'm not saying its ok to crossbreed just for the innocent frogs do they really need to be murked


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

saruchan said:


> I had a question sorry if I sound unintelligent. But I thought hybrid animals weren't able to procreate? Like I said I have no idea if its different with amphibians but if they were sterile then what wold be the problem with them affecting or diminishing the "pure lines". I'm not saying its ok to crossbreed just for the innocent frogs do they really need to be murked


Not all hybrids are infertile. The biggest danger comes from hybrids between morphs of the same species (aka intergrades or outcrosses) which are fertile and may resemble one of the parents or another morph closely enough to pass as a pure animal. A leuc x tinc is pretty obvious, but imagine trying to sort out something like a Panama x Costa Rica green auratus or an Azureus x New River tinc.


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## DendroMan420 (Jul 6, 2010)

Lol im no future teller or anything but i hope u know it was just a joke, atleast I plan to live past 30.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

HunterB said:


> I was gonna point that out when I first read it as well but I figured i'd let it slide


I couldn't help myself 

To the OP. 

You're doing the right thing. Your frog's will love you for it.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Instead of waiting until you finish another Vivarium, why not just put one or both in a simple quarantine container? Also if you ever want different pdfs in the same tank you could've just gotten a tank kit the splits a tank down the middle. That way you could have them in the same tank and they wouldn't have any contact with eachother.


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

Tony said:


> Not all hybrids are infertile. The biggest danger comes from hybrids between morphs of the same species (aka intergrades or outcrosses) which are fertile and may resemble one of the parents or another morph closely enough to pass as a pure animal. A leuc x tinc is pretty obvious, but imagine trying to sort out something like a Panama x Costa Rica green auratus or an Azureus x New River tinc.


Thanks, I see what your saying with auratas and tincs mixing but could a leuc and azureus procreate and produce a hybrid capable of breeding itself.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

alex111683 said:


> Also if you ever want different pdfs in the same tank you could've just gotten a tank kit the splits a tank down the middle. That way you could have them in the same tank and they wouldn't have any contact with eachother.


This is also another possibility, I did this with a 40 gallon long and split it with a plexi-glass divider so that one side had CR auratus and the other had leucs. You could even be creative and try to disguise the divider by doing things like a fake rock outcropping, a fake tree stump, lots of plants, ledges, etc. so you don't even know it's there.
Bryan


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

saruchan said:


> Thanks, I see what your saying with auratas and tincs mixing but could a leuc and azureus procreate and produce a hybrid capable of breeding itself.


I don't know if the interspecies _Dendrobates_ hybrids are fertile or not.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

saruchan said:


> I had a question sorry if I sound unintelligent. But I thought hybrid animals weren't able to procreate? Like I said I have no idea if its different with amphibians but if they were sterile then what wold be the problem with them affecting or diminishing the "pure lines". I'm not saying its ok to crossbreed just for the innocent frogs do they really need to be murked


Depends on the number of chromosomes and how the genes match up. In species that have only recently split, hybrids can and will breed. 

There are salamander species in the U.S. that are known to be hybrids of two or more species that gave rise to a new species that reproduces.
Unisexual "Hybrid" Salamander Complexes, Ambystoma spp.
Thriving Hybrid Salamanders Contradict Common Wisdom

As I stated before, all 'leopard geckos' in the U.S. are hybrids, unless they come with locale information, such as recent imports from European breeders who kept subspecies seperate.
The Learning Center - Leopard Gecko Trade Names

Corn snakes were crossed with a close relative that had an albino gene that was later reclassified as a different species, so most albino corn snakes are actually hybrids.
And dont forget 'jungle corns'....
Corn Snake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Livebearing fish species readily cross, that is how most of the colors you see in the pet store aquarium came to be. There are multiple closely related swordtail species, that have been crossed. Those hybrids have also been crossed to platies, and I would bet that every swordtail or platy that you find in a pet store has hybrid genetics. That doesnt stop them from breeding like crazy, as evident in the 26gallon bow front swordtail tank in my spare bedroom.
Mollies are several closely related species that crossbreed every opportunity they get.
http://148.206.53.230/revistasuam/hidrobiologica/include/getdoc.php?id=74&article=96&mode=pdf

And if all that sounds crazy, you should look into plants. Orchids immediately come to mind, as well as food crops. 

What is a grapefruit? Ever thought to look up where they came from? Its a hybrid....
Grapefruit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I studied hybrids for a paper in one of my college classes. 
It is a jumbled mess of genetics, guesswork, and misinformation. I hope that it never becomes common place or acceptable in this hobby.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is possible that there are genetic problems with the hybrids where one sex is frequently infertile (Haldane's Rule) while the other sex is fertile. This could easily cause people to believe that the hybrids are sterile. 

Ed


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## Delmarr (Nov 29, 2009)

Im guessing Dendroman is a teen so flaming, ostrasizing or being overly verbose is not the best tactic. It certainly didn't work on me at that age.

Id say, give good advise, mentor or ignore.

If your the type who cant read a post like the one that started this without
seeing red. relax, have a beer. I have yet to see a nasty response no matter how noble the intent, have a positive effect on the original poster/offender.

Just my 2 cents

Delmarr


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Id say that for the most part this thread has stayed very civil, given the context.


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

Thanks for the info guys I guess no one would know for sure unless they tried out some test. Another question of topic though is an auratus camo a campana and green & bronze hybrid?


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Ed said:


> It is possible that there are genetic problems with the hybrids where one sex is frequently infertile (Haldane's Rule) while the other sex is fertile. This could easily cause people to believe that the hybrids are sterile.
> 
> Ed


I seem to remember Haldane's law, or something similar, in which the males given genes push for faster development of the young at the expense of the mother's health. Then the females given genes try to counter this by slowing parts of development to insure that the mother lives a healthier life, and the baby has more time to grow. For reproduction within a species, there exists a perfectly balanced system that works best for the species in question. In regards to hybrids, this system is often out the window and if the males given genes dominated, the hybrid produced had what is known as "hybrid vigor" growing bigger than both parent species. It might not be Haldane's law... Its been a while since I was in a biology classroom.

The term "hybrid vigor" can also refer to a cross between two lines of a single species, and is often used by linebreeders to outbreed their stock while still keeping the desired phenotype.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

saruchan said:


> Thanks for the info guys I guess no one would know for sure unless they tried out some test. Another question of topic though is an auratus camo a campana and green & bronze hybrid?


Understory has them and Understory wouldnt be working with a hybrid when they are trying to conserve darts.
Understory Enterprises Inc. - Dendrobates auratus

They are different populations of the same species, D auratus, isolated from each other long enough to produce different color patterns. 

Think of it as the difference between an African and an Asian. Both are **** erectus, just from different populations that had been isolated from each other long enough to have different skin color.


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## Leuc_Skywalker (Sep 5, 2009)

frogfreak, ive never bred dart frogs so i actually wasnt sure what she was doing but thanks for that info. I apologize if my posts or my other threads makes me a troll but actually* i just want to know the info because sometimes i cant find it on the google,



Well....I believe I saw an article on "google" about human birth control and Mountain Dew. I LOVE MTN. DEW!!!!!! Am I going to put all my chips in that bet? Hell no!! I prefer to ask the experts in the field and go to better sites then "google"...enough said.*


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

forgive me if i'm missing something... what is the problem with this kind of mixed tank if one simply does not raise the offspring?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okapi said:


> I seem to remember Haldane's law, or something similar, in which the males given genes push for faster development of the young at the expense of the mother's health. Then the females given genes try to counter this by slowing parts of development to insure that the mother lives a healthier life, and the baby has more time to grow. For reproduction within a species, there exists a perfectly balanced system that works best for the species in question. In regards to hybrids, this system is often out the window and if the males given genes dominated, the hybrid produced had what is known as "hybrid vigor" growing bigger than both parent species. It might not be Haldane's law... Its been a while since I was in a biology classroom.
> 
> The term "hybrid vigor" can also refer to a cross between two lines of a single species, and is often used by linebreeders to outbreed their stock while still keeping the desired phenotype.


Hybrids are used in that context in plants and maybe invertebrates but when dealing with vertebrates, crossbred is normally the correct term when looking at breedings between morphs, so it should be crossbred vigor. 

When looking at Haldane's rule one has to know which sex is the heterogametic gender (regardless if it follows a XX/XY or a ZW/ZZ gamete system). In the XX/XY system the males are the heterogametic gender while in the WZ/WW system females are the heterogametic gender. Under Haldane's rule, if one of the two sexes is going to be sterile it is going to be the heterogametic gender.

(As a side note, I've been unable to find any information to indicate whether or not dendrobatids utilize a XX/XY or a ZW/ZZ system...)

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

epiphytes etc. said:


> forgive me if i'm missing something... what is the problem with this kind of mixed tank if one simply does not raise the offspring?


The progeny _is_ the main concern.

A close second is that most mixed species vivariums portrayed on here are not *steller* postings. They lack pictures, build threads and other essential and accurate information to assist the new hobbyists. As a result, almost all of the mixing threads turn out to be confusing.

The mixed species vivaria threads here consist mainly of " yeah I've had a mixed species viv for years now and its' *fine*, so PM me if ya wanna know more".


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> The progeny _is_ the main concern.
> 
> A close second is that most mixed species vivariums portrayed on here are not *steller* postings. They lack pictures, build threads and other essential and accurate information to assist the new hobbyists. As a result, almost all of the mixing threads turn out to be confusing.
> 
> The mixed species vivaria threads here consist mainly of " yeah I've had a mixed species viv for years now and its' *fine*, so PM me if ya wanna know more".


Agreed, i've gotta add though, that, IMO, i think mixed tanks don't look as good as single species viv, the plethora (lol, always found that word funny) of colours kind of "wash it out" for me. instead of having all greens/browns with a litle yellow frogs jump across, it's virtually all the colours... i don't know, just doesnt look as good to me...


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

epiphytes etc. said:


> forgive me if i'm missing something... what is the problem with this kind of mixed tank if one simply does not raise the offspring?


Darts can be very resourceful parents, it is not unusual for froglets to pop up from hidden tadpoles. In a single species viv it is a nice surprise, but in an improperly stocked mixed viv you could very easily wind up with hybrids/intergrades/outcrosses.


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