# A few questions on FF culturing



## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Hiya, and happy new year, everyone! 

I've been working more on preparations for my future dart frogs (bearing in mind i can't really start anything meaningful for awhile due to some life-related shenanigans) but I've got a couple questions on fruit flies specifically. I've got a good bearing on how to feed frogs, but the archives have led me to some conflicting info on a few questions relating to culturing fruit flies.

1- How many cultures do I _actually_ need? I've seen varying numbers from 1 new culture a week to 3 or more cultures a week. Given that i've no intention of having any more than a pair of leucs (for now, at least), will buying 2 starting cultures and making 1 per week satisfy the needs of my frogs? 

2- Culture media. I'm currently conflicted between making it homemade and buying premade, or doing a combination of the two. I don't mind if premade media is a little more expensive, since IMO the cost includes the reduced labor, since everything is already mixed and just needs water (if i'm correct) However, I've seen mixed info on what actually produces flies well- any thoughts on that?

3- Culture cups. Where do you guys buy your cups? Conversely, if I'm going to DIY cups, what sort of mesh should I use for the lid to prevent fly escapes?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

ParrotAlex said:


> 2- Culture media. I'm currently conflicted between making it homemade and buying premade, or doing a combination of the two. I don't mind if premade media is a little more expensive, since IMO the cost includes the reduced labor, since everything is already mixed and just needs water (if i'm correct) However, I've seen mixed info on what actually produces flies well- any thoughts on that?


Buy a premade fruit fly media. It basically takes one of the variables out of frog keeping.


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## Dendrobation (Jan 2, 2022)

ParrotAlex said:


> Hiya, and happy new year, everyone!
> 
> I've been working more on preparations for my future dart frogs (bearing in mind i can't really start anything meaningful for awhile due to some life-related shenanigans) but I've got a couple questions on fruit flies specifically. I've got a good bearing on how to feed frogs, but the archives have led me to some conflicting info on a few questions relating to culturing fruit flies.
> 
> ...


1, more than you think you'll need. It's always going to be dependant on how many frogs you have, but, crap will always happen. Always have a backup culture ready, and maybe even a backup for a backup if you've got multiple tanks going. Cultures crash. Cultures dry out. Cultures mold and get mites, get hybridized by outside species that give them the ability to fly, they can mutate and fly away in some cases... just always keep more on hand than you need. 

2, I like the ease of premixed media. Personally, I get mine from Alex Menke/Frog Daddy. He has a cold mix blend that does well in areas like the south with constant high humidity. Smells great too, I always want to taste it... but anyways, everyone who has a dart business seems to be making their own proprietary blends these days to sell, and sometimes you just gotta play around with it. I used Josh's Frogs mix for a while, it's good stuff. There are also myriad recipes out there, and on here for home made. 

3, I get my cups normally from Amazon, they sell them with the cloth tops and the hole punch. I don't use the hole punched ones as the flies rapidly close the holes with poop and the culture can crash pretty quick with no air. The flies can also mate with other species through those tiny holes, and that's where you'll get the flying flies. They can do it through the fabric ones too, but doesn't seem to be as common in my personal experience. You can also get the cups almost anywhere you can get flies and culture kits, on dart frog and reptile websites. 

Lastly, don't forget your excelsior! The shreds of aspen wood are paramount to the cultures, and the coffee filter substitute is just terrible imo. You can get quantities from any of the aforementioned, but I snagged a10 lb box of it from somewhere. Amazon maybe? It's been a while, but they're out there. I don't have to buy excelsior again for a while!


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## ForgottenPast (Dec 18, 2021)

I am personally new to dart frog keeping myself but I do want to try and answer your questions as best I can from the research I have done if I say anything wrong someone with more experience is welcome to correct me.

1. One culture a week is the bare minimum and if one of your cultures crash or don’t do well for whatever reason your food supply could be severely impacted. I currently I am making cultures on a 1-2-1-2 etc schedule. The rationale is that the extra one every other week can either be used as a backup food source and/or for breeding new cultures while the weekly on is for feeding. It might seem wasteful to make so many for 3 frogs but at the same time I don’t think the fruit flies mind as they don’t get eaten.

2. A large bag of media from Josh’s Frogs lasts around 3 months it is much better to let someone else make it for you.

3. I personally bought all the supplies I needed for a fruit fly culture from Josh’s Frogs including media, excelsior and custom cups with screen lids for around $30 and that should last me about 3 months. Compared to the price of dog/cat food that seems pretty reasonable to me.


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## CrazyCat (Nov 21, 2021)

Regarding 2, someone did the math out for how much several popular brands of fruit fly media costs and it comes out to something like 50 cents per culture. Unless you have an army of frogs, that's something like a couple bucks a month. At that price the convenience seems worth it.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Dendrobation said:


> Lastly, don't forget your excelsior! The shreds of aspen wood are paramount to the cultures, and the coffee filter substitute is just terrible imo. You can get quantities from any of the aforementioned, but I snagged a10 lb box of it from somewhere. Amazon maybe? It's been a while, but they're out there. I don't have to buy excelsior again for a while!


I can't stand excelsior. It gets everywhere. Coffee filters have less usable surface area for larvae, but the pay off with no mess is worth it in my opinion.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

CrazyCat said:


> Regarding 2, someone did the math out for how much several popular brands of fruit fly media costs and it comes out to something like 50 cents per culture.











Cost of commercial FF media


I've been rotating NEHerp media, Josh's media, and Superfly, so I decided to figure out how much a cx worth of each FF media costs. Calculations were based on the amount of media I have figured out works well for me in each cx, and don't include shipping costs, since those are variable and can...




 www.dendroboard.com


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

I think one culture per week will be more than enough for you. I have actually scaled back to one culture every two weeks and I consistently have at least three-four producing cultures. You should always have at least three healthy producing cultures at a time in my opinion. One new one, one to seed the next one, and one to feed with. Ideally you have at least four to have a backup. One weekly gives you more margin for error. I just buy the media from Josh's Frogs which I find to be pretty good, though maybe not the cheapest. You can get good cups online as well. Amazon or any dart frog company online has them too.


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## Dendrobation (Jan 2, 2022)

Chris S said:


> I can't stand excelsior. It gets everywhere. Coffee filters have less usable surface area for larvae, but the pay off with no mess is worth it in my opinion.


That's fair, def not for everyone. I've tried coffee filters for that very reason, but my area is simply too humid, and the filters fall and mold within a week or two every time.


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

If all your cultures were to fail at once do you have a local store you can rely on? If so then one every two weeks will be plenty for two frogs. If you don't have a backup source then do one a week and keep them 6 weeks or so.


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

Also worth connecting with another frogger in the area if you can. Then you can afford to keep fewer cultures, because you can rely on each other as back-ups if all your cultures happen to fail at the same time.


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## I'm learning (Nov 28, 2021)

hansgruber7 said:


> Also worth connecting with another frogger in the area if you can. Then you can afford to keep fewer cultures, because you can rely on each other as back-ups if all your cultures happen to fail at the same time.


 I wish I could find someone else near me


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## Dendrobation (Jan 2, 2022)

I'm learning said:


> I wish I could find someone else near me


Well, what's your area? Should be able to find something at least somewhat close by.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'm learning said:


> I wish I could find someone else near me


Not to derail the OP's discussion, but those users who have met the Marketplace requirements can post ads there, or in the regional sections. Please thoroughly read ans fully understand the stickied threads there before posting, and if you have any questions contact a mod first.


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## I'm learning (Nov 28, 2021)

Dendrobation said:


> Well, what's your area? Should be able to find something at least somewhat close by.


 As listed in my profile Mendocino county california


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## Dendrobation (Jan 2, 2022)

I'm learning said:


> As listed in my profile Mendocino county california


Jeez, that does look a bit up there. Well, as @Socratic Monologue said above, you may have luck checking in the regional sections on here. Can't hurt to try


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## Patterhorn (Oct 4, 2019)

I like to make a culture of Mela and Hydei on alternating weeks.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

ParrotAlex said:


> Culture cups. Where do you guys buy your cups? Conversely, if I'm going to DIY cups, what sort of mesh should I use for the lid to prevent fly escapes?


I use canning jars and the split type ring lids with a piece of old tee shirt in place of the flat. They last forever and produce little waste. Thinner tee shirts work best for the lids.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Chris S said:


> I can't stand excelsior. It gets everywhere. Coffee filters have less usable surface area for larvae, but the pay off with no mess is worth it in my opinion.





Dendrobation said:


> That's fair, def not for everyone. I've tried coffee filters for that very reason, but my area is simply too humid, and the filters fall and mold within a week or two every time.


I also hate the excelsior mess, so I've started using this stuff:
Ready roll
So far it seems to hold up well to getting soggy (unlike coffee filters, which get soggy on me even in Arizona), and no mess like excelsior. I cut off a strip about a hand-width wide per cup. Haven't priced it out to see how cost effective it is 🤔 but you can find it in different brands and roll sizes I think


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

crbonade said:


> I also hate the excelsior mess, so I've started using this stuff:
> Ready roll
> So far it seems to hold up well to getting soggy (unlike coffee filters, which get soggy on me even in Arizona), and no mess like excelsior. I cut off a strip about a hand-width wide per cup. Haven't priced it out to see how cost effective it is 🤔 but you can find it in different brands and roll sizes I think


This stuff looks cool, and I'm almost out of Excelsior. Hopefully is isn't a derail of this thread to ask for more info (photos, if you have them, to see how it looks like this is working). How long have you been using it? 

It is available at Staples stores, too; good for my NY resolution to wean off of Amazon.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This stuff looks cool, and I'm almost out of Excelsior. Hopefully is isn't a derail of this thread to ask for more info (photos, if you have them, to see how it looks like this is working). How long have you been using it?
> 
> It is available at Staples stores, too; good for my NY resolution to wean off of Amazon.


I haven't been using it too long, about a month. My photos aren't great, and I didn't use enough of it in my first attempt 🤷‍♀️ The melo cultures that I made with it are doing well though.

An early attempt, about 3 weeks old (hydei). Starting to produce finally (yay colder household temps), and the packing material is holding up nicely so far without getting soggy or breaking down. I suspect the "webbed" nature of the material helps some with that.









A culture I made this morning - I used a wider strip of the material to give more surface area.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This stuff looks cool, and I'm almost out of Excelsior. Hopefully is isn't a derail of this thread to ask for more info (photos, if you have them, to see how it looks like this is working). How long have you been using it?
> 
> It is available at Staples stores, too; good for my NY resolution to wean off of Amazon.


Definitely don't mind it, if it does count as a derail, since it's useful info for me, and anyone who comes to this thread seeking culturing advice in the future. More often than not I have some of this stuff lying around the garage somewhere, but I can't say the same for Excelsior, haha.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yeah, that second one looks like the right idea. I'd be curious to compare that vs Excelsior in terms of overall production. 

The stuff is nine dollars -- I think I'll run my own tests. 



ParrotAlex said:


> Definitely don't mind it, if it does count as a derail,


I don't think it is at all a derail either, but sometimes an OP might have a _very_ particular path in mind for their thread, and I don't want to aggravate anyone accidentally.


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## Dendrobation (Jan 2, 2022)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Hopefully is isn't a derail of this thread to ask for more info (photos, if you have them, to see how it looks like this is working). How long have you been using it?


 Same here, that does have an appealing, promising look to it. Would be very interested in a longer term experience with it.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Okay, going to revive my own thread instead of making a new one with a couple more questions. 

First, about how long before bringing home frogs should I start culturing flies? Two weeks? A month? Two months? I want to be sure I've got an acceptable buffer going, but I also don't want to start culturing way too early and have to throw away excess flies and media. I'm currently in the viv aging phase, and I've got at least a month till I can add frogs, so there is some time.

Second, how exactly should I go about starting culturing? I think I've got a good grasp on how to maintain and properly propagate cultures and everything, but I'm not sure if I should be buying a mature, producing culture, or a young one as a starter, or if I should get multiple starters, etc. 

Thanks in advance! I'm starting to get that certain itch I always get when it's close to time to bring home a new addition to the menagerie- I always find myself looking for what things I can do to be more prepared ahead of time.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

ParrotAlex said:


> First, about how long before bringing home frogs should I start culturing flies? Two weeks? A month? Two months? I want to be sure I've got an acceptable buffer going, but I also don't want to start culturing way too early and have to throw away excess flies and media. I'm currently in the viv aging phase, and I've got at least a month till I can add frogs, so there is some time.


D. melanogaster will take about 2 weeks plus to make a culture ready to feed out depending on temps. How long will it take you to figure out how to set up a fly culture? 

Sorting out the how many fly cultures you need to make how often, and how soon is a messy process. Throw away excess media and flies. Who cares? It is an awful feeling having young froglets, not enough food, and rush shipping producing cultures that are not always producing. I have a FF culture that I bought because I got behind on making cultures. It was sold as a producing culture, ready to feed. I have had it a week and it is still a week from feeding out.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

There is a lot of advice here to start getting the hang of cxing early, like a month out, and make a cx a week. I think that's great advice.

IIRC, when I started I got a producing cx and a fresh one, and just figured it out and that worked well for me. Using prepackaged media makes it pretty simple; making mac and cheese from the box is more challenging. I have retail FFs available locally, though, and I'm not averse to having a cx overnighted to me in a pinch, so there isn't much pressure for me to have all the bugs worked out (so to speak, ha). 

Media is silly cheap (~$0.50 per cx), cups and lids are easily washable and reusable for years and every one of those FFs is going to die soon anyway, so if you're the preparatory type a month of practice might be good -- that's one full cx cycle from seeding to freezing off.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

crbonade said:


> I haven't been using it too long, about a month. My photos aren't great, and I didn't use enough of it in my first attempt 🤷‍♀️ The melo cultures that I made with it are doing well though.
> 
> An early attempt, about 3 weeks old (hydei). Starting to produce finally (yay colder household temps), and the packing material is holding up nicely so far without getting soggy or breaking down. I suspect the "webbed" nature of the material helps some with that.
> View attachment 304450
> ...


Any update on how these are going @crbonade ? 

I've been contemplating trying this myself but wanted to see how your cultures were doing.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Any update on how these are going @crbonade ?
> 
> I've been contemplating trying this myself but wanted to see how your cultures were doing.


Sorry I didn't reply sooner - have been out of town since end of April for work and haven't been logging on regularly since I'm away from the frogs 

Still using the paper, and it's been doing well for me. It does eventually get wet and collapse down if I just stuff it in there, so I tested a few methods of inserting the paper to see what makes it last longest. So far what seems to work for me is a strip about 4 inches wide, folded in half, with the bottom pressed into the media. I then accordion-fold the white paper backing and stick that in the cup for additional surface area (the white paper only lasts a week or two though). Drop the flies in, and last I fold the tops of the paper over.

That's probably confusing as heck in text form, so here are some I took for my housesitter to help her with making the cultures:


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I did end up getting a small roll of this and trying it. I didn't use all the roll before I went back to Excelsior -- the wet squishing did it for me. Glad it works for some people, though -- nice to have options.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Excelsior is definitely hardier stuff! Durability-wise (and surface area-wise) I definitely prefer it to the packing paper, but it always makes such a mess for me with the small pieces falling out (and the packing paper is cheaper too).

I bought a ginormous roll before I left for my work trip, so it'll be a while before I run out. I might try excelsior again after that though to see if my feelings towards it have changed at all 😅 

But the paper is definitely a good emergency option since most office supply places sell small rolls. I always like having local options for when shipping goes away, or for when I accidentally leave supplies accessible to my doofus dogs 🙄


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

crbonade said:


> (and the packing paper is cheaper too)


Ack, I hate when my brain makes me run numbers.

I bought a 10 lb box of Excelsior and it lasted a bit more than three years, at an average of probably 3-4 cxs a week over that time. One vendor claims 500 cxs out of that box, and I think that's on the conservative side (I use less media than the package calls for, too). At $42 shipped a box (cheapest price I could find today), that's $0.084 a cx.

A 200 foot Ready Roll costs $0.12 a square foot, per Amazon. It looks as if you're using a 4" x 12" piece? That would cost $0.04.


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

I also experimented with that plastic backed cut packing paper. After it collapsed in the first 3 cultures, I went back to the excelsior. 

I found if I shake my little excelsior clumps over the trash bin before putting them in the culture cups, it's a lot less prone to shedding bits into the dusting cup later during feeding.


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## Smotzer (5 mo ago)

As someone new to creating these cultures, all the different perspectives in this thread were very helpful to read and learn. Thanks to you all!


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## Westielover83 (5 mo ago)

I think I saw someone reccomend cutting and reusing plastic baggies! You fold shopping - grocery bags and cut a bunch of plastic strips, rollem into a ball and shove those in the cup.


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## Westielover83 (5 mo ago)

What I like about the baggie idea is they are not wood that will decompose, nor paper that will get soggy. Plastic would just stay exactly how it is.  even some plastic mesh might be good. Cut a strip of that, (plastic window screen or plastic bug mesh) and coil it into a tube vertically and place that in.

I have ample of both of these on hand and love recycling. I reuse old glass jars for my flies, old leftover plastic food containers I solder holes into the lids for my pet bugs, and its a win win 

Very easy to get both on hand these days.


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