# No Leaf Litter....Best Frog?



## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

Hi,
I am planning on building my first viv and am not going to be using any leaf litter. What species would be best suited for this environment? Thanks
Blake


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

I just started using leaf litter on my last viv, for my pums. Before that, I just covered the substrate with moss and kept tincs. After moving my tinc viv, I put in leaf litter because I had some left over. After reading about all the benifits of it, I will use it for now on. Why are you against using it? If you do a search, you can see the benifits. Also, If you like moss, you can do half moss and half litter.
Scott


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

My imitators never venture into the leaf litter. I don't know if others have had the same experience.
-mark


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

Most of the time, if my male solarte isn't calling, they can both be found around and in the leaf litter hunting springs. 
Scott


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

I have experienced a lot of success growing my houseplants using only leca in glass or other closed-at-bottom containers. This is something I want to incorperate into the viv and grow moss on top only to cover the leca (b/c leca doesnt look very natural). I have 3 cookie pan sheets full of moss that i picked off trees around my house. Basically I would like to make a dirt free viv and I think it could be pulled with some benefits over the standard viv build


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## colb (Mar 13, 2008)

I do about a 50/50 moss/leaf litter in my tank. My Auratus didn't even go near the leaf litter for a good month, but now they always seem to be in there hunting for food...


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

LZeppelin513 said:


> Basically I would like to make a dirt free viv and I think it could be pulled with some benefits over the standard viv build


What sort of benefits do you speak of?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

since you got a cool user name, check out the substrate on this page: Tamamizu.frogroom.html


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

When I switched my houseplants over to the leca i observed improvements in leaf growth and root quality. I maintain a constant amount of water in the pot bellow the root bundle. I feel much of the improvement is due to root water uptake. Because the roots are not submerged in the water, they do not decompose. The leca is so porous that water is pulled up due to capillary action. I have observed that the roots can then send out root hairs, which are single epidermal cells that serve the purpose of efficient water/ion uptake due to their large surface area. Also, the large spaces in between the leca allow huge amounts of gas exchange (which is also a contributor to the roots not decomposing) that is very beneficial for cellular respiration. 
Before I switched to leca, the #1 way I would either kill or weaken potted plants is due to under or over watering. Not the case with the leca. My explanation for the plant success: this method of growing allows the roots to "drink" when they want while maintaining strong opposition to "root rot."

I also want to include a small overhead sprinkler system in the tank as apposed to a mister. I want to do this because ill set it up to "rain" down water that is pumped from the water feature which will contain ions and matter from recycled organic material, like frog crap. This may help spread nutrients to the epi's and other plants. I feel that if i went with soil that the sprinklers would wash too much soil into the water feature every time it "rains." Also price tag vs mister is a big reason. 

But these are just my opinions. Sorry for the long answer! 

Hey Chrisk good website! thanks for the link, what is your avatar?

Thanks to everyone who has responded
Blake


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

that's a samurai, i'm a martial arts practitioner haha. here's a big pic of it: Kabuki actor samurai woodblock by KUNICHIKA


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

LZeppelin513 said:


> When I switched my houseplants over to the leca i observed improvements in leaf growth and root quality. I maintain a constant amount of water in the pot bellow the root bundle. I feel much of the improvement is due to root water uptake. Because the roots are not submerged in the water, they do not decompose. The leca is so porous that water is pulled up due to capillary action. I have observed that the roots can then send out root hairs, which are single epidermal cells that serve the purpose of efficient water/ion uptake due to their large surface area. Also, the large spaces in between the leca allow huge amounts of gas exchange (which is also a contributor to the roots not decomposing) that is very beneficial for cellular respiration.
> Before I switched to leca, the #1 way I would either kill or weaken potted plants is due to under or over watering. Not the case with the leca. My explanation for the plant success: this method of growing allows the roots to "drink" when they want while maintaining strong opposition to "root rot."
> 
> I also want to include a small overhead sprinkler system in the tank as apposed to a mister. I want to do this because ill set it up to "rain" down water that is pumped from the water feature which will contain ions and matter from recycled organic material, like frog crap. This may help spread nutrients to the epi's and other plants. I feel that if i went with soil that the sprinklers would wash too much soil into the water feature every time it "rains." Also price tag vs mister is a big reason.
> ...


True, but why not have your leca as a drainage layer so that you have that benefit you talk about. From your post it seems like you are going for the hydroponic method of growing plants. Thats fine but why not use some sort of a well draining mixture ( there are tons of options) clay based, ABG mix, etc. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure that with only leca as your entire substrate where will all your nutrients come from, what about microfauna, isopods etc. 

Dont get me wrong your idea seems perfectly fine, but I dont see why you would rule out any soil. You stated that you had problems with root rot when planting in pots. I have never had root rot in my tanks, I use the ABG mix and just keep the water line about 0.5-1 inch below the substrate barrier.... no problems


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## dom (Sep 23, 2007)

markbudde said:


> My imitators never venture into the leaf litter. I don't know if others have had the same experience.
> -mark


mine love it.. i use big magnolia leaves and they crawl in and out of them hunting and exploring!


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

Mac said:


> True, but why not have your leca as a drainage layer so that you have that benefit you talk about. From your post it seems like you are going for the hydroponic method of growing plants. Thats fine but why not use some sort of a well draining mixture ( there are tons of options) clay based, ABG mix, etc. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure that with only leca as your entire substrate where will all your nutrients come from, what about microfauna, isopods etc.
> 
> Dont get me wrong your idea seems perfectly fine, but I dont see why you would rule out any soil. You stated that you had problems with root rot when planting in pots. I have never had root rot in my tanks, I use the ABG mix and just keep the water line about 0.5-1 inch below the substrate barrier.... no problems


In my opinion I don't think that there is a need for huge amounts of micro fauna. Micro fauna is a huge part the life cycle. It supports decay of organic material and introduces nutrients back into the environment. It is needed to support the diversity of life in an ecosystem, however I will only be displaying a few species of plants and a couple frogs. The frogs dont require any of the micro fauna. As long as I am feeding them fruit flies with some supplement, they will thrive. Many plants on the other hand do require nutrients that are recycled by micro fauna in the soil. However, I feel that because I do not have a tank that is a hundred years old or plan on keeping it alive for a hundred years, I will not have large amounts of organic material that will need to be recycled by the micro fauna. I do feel that the wood along with feces that will be in the tank will be enough to support the necessary fungus, bacteria, and micro fauna to provide nutrients for the plants. In my opinion, the major downfall of no soil will be observed as lower levels of nitrogen fixation by bacteria and fungus. This would mostly result in stunted plant growth and not death because there will still be nitrogen fixation from organisms on the feces. If anything, a small amount of stunted growth would be good in a terrarium. 

As for the isopods, there should not be a need, simply because there is less decaying material in a tank with no dirt. I would rather have less bugs in my house anyway, lol, just a personal preference. 

Again, these are just my opinions. I have zero experience with terrariums. My only background is that I am currently majoring in physiology at UW. 
The main reason I want to do it this way is because I like trying to take what the norm is and make it my own in some way. Coming up with ideas is the fun for me.
But now I am way off topic! Thanks for your suggestions and experiences! much appreciated
Blake


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

One thing I would be concerned about is that your moss is temperate and a lot of people have trouble keeping it alive in a viv that is meant to support dart frogs. Just a thought.


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

Yea, I read that. The good thing is that it is everywhere and free. I am hopping that with very good light i can keep it alive. I have heard that some species work and other do not. In our green house we have a few rooms dedicated to warm tropics and moss is growing everywhere. I have became pals with the head researcher and he said that the moss is just native Washington moss that started to grow on its own. 
That is good news.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Do you go to University of Wisconsin or University of Washington? I have a decent springtail population in my plants which are growing in LECA, so they can grow wihtout leaf litter.
-mark


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

markbudde said:


> Do you go to University of Wisconsin or University of Washington? I have a decent springtail population in my plants which are growing in LECA, so they can grow wihtout leaf litter.
> -mark


Same, in my FBT tank there is just leca and for some reason there are thousands of sprigs in there. I believe they are a different variety than the tropical most have in vivs but they are still small enough for darts to eat.


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

markbudde said:


> Do you go to University of Wisconsin or University of Washington? I have a decent springtail population in my plants which are growing in LECA, so they can grow wihtout leaf litter.
> -mark


University of Washington. Well thats good to hear. What do you have as a substrate, or do you just have leca?


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

otis07 said:


> Same, in my FBT tank there is just leca and for some reason there are thousands of sprigs in there. I believe they are a different variety than the tropical most have in vivs but they are still small enough for darts to eat.


Oh wow thats great, do you have any pics of your tank?


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

This is the best pic I have of this tank, there is about 5 in. of leca on the high side and less than one on the low side. All the plants were placed directly in the leca when I planted them. I used mostly cuttings so I think that's why it worked, if you took a potted plant out of soil I think you would see very different results. The only one that is not a creeping plant is the fern, I have no idea what kind they are but they grow anywhere and send off many little baby ferns near the water.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

LZeppelin513 said:


> University of Washington. Well thats good to hear. What do you have as a substrate, or do you just have leca?


I'm talking about my plants in the window sill. They brought springs with them when I moved them from my viv and now every time I water them a bunch of springs jump out. I'm in Seattle too if you wanna trade plants.
-mark


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

markbudde said:


> I'm talking about my plants in the window sill. They brought springs with them when I moved them from my viv and now every time I water them a bunch of springs jump out. I'm in Seattle too if you wanna trade plants.
> -mark


Oh thats neat! Yea I would love to trade, the only problem is that i am pretty new at growing and much of my small collection is too small to divide or take clippings. Ill shoot you a pm of some of the stuff i could trade you tho.


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm trying to gather information from this thread into building my own viv.
I have a few questions though that I need to understand in order to be able to follow you guys.
What is leaf litter and where can I get it in winter months?
And what is this Leca you speak of for growing plants.
Thanks


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

LECA is light expanded clay aggregate. its those clay balls used a lot in hydroponics. 

The leaf litter were talking about here is dead leaves that we put down on top of the soil in our vivs. This time of year for you is going to be difficult. you might be able to pluck off a few oak leaves that are still clinging to the trees or you can buy some other types of leaves from people here on DB. leaf litter is not an absolute necessary and you could wait until summer to collect some on your own.


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

ok thanks hehe, I'll be able to get a good idea of what you guys are talking about then.
Trying to figure everything out before I get my PDF's so I'll be asking stupid questions


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

the only stupid question is the one not asked!


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

hi, 
I use leaf litter and the main reason is that they look natural! a viv with leca isn't natural and leaf litter could be used to cover the leca... 
Also my frogs (any size) use it for hiding. One of my yellowback tincs actually always sleeps under one particular curled leaf.

So there are enough reason why to use leaves, but that was not the topcis question.... 

So which frogs for vivs wo leaf litter?
I guess the answer would be nearly any PDF. I guess a empty glass viv is enough to keep them alive if temp and hum are good. Guess some hiding will prevent stressing... 
So if you decide to go wo the leaf litter you can take almost any frog I guess...

Take care!
Gr. Dennis


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks Dennis, that's what I was looking for!


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

your moss will only survive for a while and the lighting wont make much difference. it needs a cooler dormant period to survive so you will be replacing it quite often.....


i am pretty sure depending on the size of the tank almost any dart will work provided that all its other needs are met. shelter, food, humidity, heat, and so fourth.. i dont think i read what size of tank your planning... but that seems to pertain mostly to more than one frog being kept in the same tank. 

my advise though is stick to the heavier bodied frogs like tincs, leucs, azureus, and so fourth, since they are the "armored tanks" of the dart frog world but i have absolutely no idea of your experience level with these animals....


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

Hi you're welcome!

And to be even more helpfull you should see this article in Leaf Litter.

http://www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/PDFs/Leaf Litter 1.1.pdf

From page 22... it describes some interesting things about soil, leaf litter and microbes.

Grtz Dennis


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

DenZ0r said:


> Hi you're welcome!
> 
> And to be even more helpfull you should see this article in Leaf Litter.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link, that is a good read. One thing I haven't considered while planning this vivarium is how this effects the nutrient uptake for the frog. I am glad that he used an actual experiment to support his claim regarding the nutrient uptake and how it leads to pigmentation development. However, the article is just this particular scientist's opinion. There are too many variables to accept his proposed hypothesis based on his experiment, but it is definitely something to consider. 
I have zero experience growing frogs and did not realized that there is pigmentation loss with frogs grown in captivity. After a quick search it looks like there are some supplementation, ie paprika, that help with retaining pigmentation. It looks like there are multiple ways one can go about designing a habitat and still get good results!

Again thanks for the post
Blake


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## LZeppelin513 (Jan 16, 2009)

Link3898 said:


> your moss will only survive for a while and the lighting wont make much difference. it needs a cooler dormant period to survive so you will be replacing it quite often.....


How can you be so sure. Like i was saying earlier this thread, I got the idea to grow moss when I was frequenting my university's green house. I was in our warm tropic room observing some of the plant species and noticed moss everywhere. I asked the head researcher of the green house about the moss and he explained to me that the moss is composed of various species that grow around the Seattle. I imagine that spores got in from ventilation or other means and flourished. Like I was saying, this greenhouse is kept about 75 degrees and very humid year round and the moss is everywhere. This gives me hope that i can also find some species that are native but will grow in the vivarium. I am expecting some to die off, but hope some will thrive.


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