# I think I'm just about ready



## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Hello froggers!

I've been lurking on the boards here over the last few months as I've been building a tank for my lady friend and I. I'll start by thanking everyone for all the great info I've gleaned by reading old threads, it's helped a TON.

So, we have an 18x18x24 tank. There are ceramic beads as the base layer and coconut husk as the substrate. It's been planted with several types of plants and ferns that are all supposed to be nontoxic. All but one were purchased from the local plant nursery. I've glassed off the top and the humidity usually stays at or near 100%. I do open it up sometimes and let the humidity fall for an hour or so before closing it up again. The temperatures max out at around 77-79 during the day and fall to low 70s at night. The lights are on a timer, 15 hours on. I have a UV bulb and two 6500k CFLs (I alternate between the two CFLs being both on, then one, then the other). The water feature in front is ~2 inches deep and has a cherry shrimp and two tetras. They've been in there for about two months now and seem to do just fine. The tank is still going through the mold and fungus stage. The various wood pieces have lots of mold/fungus on them and there are tiny cup mushrooms growing in a few places and I've had a few rad looking slime molds bloom and disappear over the last few days. There are a bunch of tiny white and brown mites(?) of some kind that have also popped up since the mold. From what I can tell, this is totally normal. 

Picture will go here when I figure out how to upload them. 

So, I know I need to seed the tank with springtails and Isopods next and to begin culturing fruit flies as well. Unfortunately work has been slow for us so we won't be able to afford to get the frogs for at least another month. The plan is to get 3 leaucamelas juveniles from a breeder about an hour from here. 

So some questions:

1- I've read that many quarantine their frogs for a few weeks before introducing them to their tank. Do I need to do this since they will all be coming from the same place and going into a "fresh" tank? (I do have a small tank I could set up for that if need be, but don't want to spend money I don't have to)

2- The tank seems to be doing great but I am worried that the humidity is TOO high. Do I need to make some adjustment so that the humidity drops to 70-80 sometimes or is keeping the humidity spiked ok?

3- The top still has the screen and the glass is on top of that. That creates a small space between glass and screen where I was thinking of putting in a computer fan to add some air movement. I would put it on a timer to go on for 15 minutes or so every so often. I'm thinking of both plant and frog health for this. Is this a good idea or not needed. 

4- What is a reasonable price range for a group of 3 leuc juveniles? I don't make a lot and want to make sure I'm not spending more money than is needed (4a- any denver/Boulder area froggers that might have some young frogs available soon?)

5- Any advice at all? I've kept various reptiles before but never frogs and want to make sure they do well.


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## gdebell (Oct 1, 2014)

Welcome to the forums. I'm not really qualified to answer those questions you posted, but I think the humidity will be ok as long as your plants are not rotting. I do know airflow helps with some plants. They may need to dry out between mistings or they just like having airflow. In that respect I think it would be fine. Don't know if it's totally needed though. I've seen plenty of examples of both. Good luck.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

If you have been doing your homework ...which it sounds as though you have...I am assuming that you gave your plants the 10% bleach and complete bleach treatment. There are a lot of threads about putting pieces of wood that has not been "autoclaved"--I learned the hard way when three HUGE beetles made an appearance in my Leptopelis tank...had to tear the whole tank apart--the eggs had to have survived the boiling/baking. I'm curious about bugs being in there already...someone more experienced should chime in about what they may be, if you can take a good picture--and whether they would be of a concern. The isopods will help with molds, and springtails are what your frogs will have to eat between your meals, and will help in garbage detail. Welcome to DB--it is a wonderful endeavor--don't be shy about asking for help--it's the only way to learn...we are not born with this knowledge.


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## NWB (Mar 23, 2014)

Hi, I'm only a few months ahead of you but I'll take a stab at this.

Quarantine? This is something you do to avoid introducing contagion to your other frogs if kept in the same general area. Since you have no other frogs, this step will do you no good this time. NEXT time, go for it.

Too much humidity? Not t enough humidity is a bigger problem really, but if the temperature gets too high, your frogs will not have a way to cool down since evaporation does not take place in 100% humidity. I would add a sliver of open space at the top. This plus the ventilation below the doors and you opening the cage should be perfect. The fans moving the air could be a good thing although I have never tried it. People who grow orchids in their vivs say it really helps.

Price range? I think $35 for standard leuc froglets is common, more as they get larger. For example, I paid $60 for my adult unsexed leucs and $100 for a proven calling male.

Anything else? Dart frogs can't swim, how will you keep them from drowning in your 2" deep water? Just my thoughts, good luck and welcome to a great hobby.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

NWB said:


> Hi, I'm only a few months ahead of you but I'll take a stab at this.
> 
> Quarantine? This is something you do to avoid introducing contagion to your other frogs if kept in the same general area. Since you have no other frogs, this step will do you no good this time. NEXT time, go for it.
> 
> ...


Where did you get hour information? Quarantine is absolutely necessary to minimize risk of contamination you your whole viv. What happens if the frogs you add turn out to have some sort of parasite load? Treating them will do you no good if you put them right back into a contaminated enclosure. Qt is to make sure your frogs have a clean bill of health before going into a permanent viv. Minimum of 30 days, with two clean fecal smears, 15 days apart.


Also, darts can swim pretty well, and 2" of water is nothing to worry about for healthy frogs, so long as there is an easy exit route and no areas where the frog can get stuck under water.


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## NWB (Mar 23, 2014)

I stand corrected then. Just trying to help but as I stated I'm newer to the hobby myself.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Here's a shot of the viv. 

Thanks for the comments so far.

I'll go ahead and build a vertical quarantine tank out of the 5.5g I have sitting around. I already have glass I can use for it. Btw, I got the glass for the main viv's top from an old piece of art from the thrift store, $5, and just cut it myself. Now I have some bad art for the deck and extra glass! I cleaned it right up and electrical taped it to the top. I set the glass such that there is a ~2" screened vent across the back. It seems to let the humidity and temperature drop a bit. Humidity went down to 84% then up to around 95% after I misted lightly, temp at top of tank was ~77F, ~74F at bottom. At night the humidity goes up and the temp goes down a few degrees. 

Sooo, I'm considering redoing the tank. Here's why: I planted and decorated it sort of hodgepodgey; I'm concerned because of the bugs that I didn't do a good enough job cleaning the plants and that any fertilizers/pesticides that MAY have been on them weren't completely removed, since poking around the last several weeks on the forum I think that I can do a much better job than I've done.

My thought is that I'll build the quarantine tank using more or less the method I'll use in the main tank. Then I can clean out and rebuild the main tank. While I'm building/growing it out a bit, I can get fly cultures and then frogs once the budget permits and keep them in the quarantine tank for the 30 days and clear fecal test. I found the place I think I want to get the cultures and frogs from, Feeder Frenzy, they're about 45-60min from here so I don't have to worry about shipping and they are the breeders.

Thoughts? Also, any recommendations for Denver area places that can do a fecal smear test? I want to do this right and appreciate any feedback.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

A wider pic.

Apologies for the sideways thing, not sure why it's displaying that way. >.<


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

I spent the last few days tearing down the main terrarium, boiling all the "hard" stuff, bare rooting the plants, sanitizing the tank. I've arranged the wood in the tank to mock up the look. I'm off tomorrow and will be installing background sections and setting up the false bottom. For the FB I reclaimed and boiled the leca and will be topping it with lava rock that I've boiled and crushed up. The water will flow from the crook of the sloped wood down to the small pool. The leca and some lava will be held in place with fiberglass screen that will be siliconed in place with the GE 100% silicone II brown. The wood will then be placed and siliconed in place. Accounting for cure time I should be able to fill it and test the water flow early next week. Then I'll add some additional lava for landscaping, add the cocohusk, and hopefully plant by mid next week. I want to do it asap mainly because I have the two tetras and the shrimp set up in the quite sad looking 5.5g and the plants are bare rooted a dim sure don't like it much. 

I'll try to take some pics at each step to document the triumphs and mistakes.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

I guess I still haven't figured out the pics. The last one is of the plants, which I can't seem to find the data sheets on :/

This one should be of the tank with the wood mocked up where it will be.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Since your using a substrate that is only coco fiber I would strongly suggest plants and frogs that like a wet substrate. Coco fiber holds water very well and doesn't drain much.


Edit: if you do a search for substrates you will see a lot of info on the different mixes we use to maintain dampness and good drainage. After the substrate becomes water logged you run the risk of an Anaerobic bacterial infection.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Aspidites, thanks for catching that. In the past I've always used cocohusk as the substrate for my reptile terrariums and got in the habit of mentally replacing 'substrate' with 'coco husk'. Still retraining myself for frogs to think 'substrate'!

In any case, I've already got coco husk (exoterra), charcoal (ferti•lome), and sphagnum moss (mosser lee). I'll be checking the local shop for tree fern fiber tomorrow. I also couldn't find any orchid bark that wasn't fertilized so I bought a torn open bag of wood chips for $0.85 that I may sift and use if I can't find fine orchid bark or fine fir bark. I am wondering if I should grind everything to a fairly uniform size or if having a range of particle sizes in the substrate is better. None of the threads I've read really mention it. For instance I couldn't find milled sphagnum so I think I should at least grind it up a little first. Also, sanitizing the substrate mix?

I've also:

Siliconed the pump cord to the back corner.
---Layed down the fiberglass screen and siliconed the back edge in place, then the outline of the water feature.
---Placed lava rock around the edges.
---Filled the middle of the tank with the clay spheres.
---Siliconed off the pond from the perimeter lava rock area. 
---Placed my wood features and siliconed them in place, including sealing the main piece to the base piece and sculpting some pools in them. The effect came out well I think. I also placed some cork bark in the background where it was to contact a piece of wood.

Today I'll test the water feature and then begin securing the background bark pieces. I know everyone usually puts the tank on its back and places the background first, but I wasn't really sure where my wood and ground lines were going to be so I opted to do it afterwards. I can already tell it will be one of the most cumbersome parts of the build 

Here is a shot of the viv right now. Btw, any tips on getting more than one thumbnail to attach to each post (using an iPad)?


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

So the viv is pretty much set up again. The water line took a while to figure out. I split the water pump line into two lines and siliconed them to the wood. It took some fiddling for a few hours but I mananged to make it look pretty good. The silicone is quite similar in tone to the wood when wet, so that's cool. Then I attached several pieces of bark to the back ground and side, as well as a piece of wood that I mounted an orchid in. After letting the silicone cure I placed all the plants and substrate, then filled in a bunch of spots with sphagnum and a few different moss 'mats'. I misted everything and then let it drip dry several times. Then I filled the tank with RO water, drained it, and refilled it again with RO. It sat for a while, then I reintroduced the cherry shrimp and 2 tetras

The cherry shrimp seems to be doing just fine. The two tetras didn't fare as well, they perished about an hour after reintroduction. I think it was either stress or perhaps traces of residual bleach from the plants. Since the shrimp still seems to be doing good and acting totally normal, I'm not sure what to make of it. Does anyone have any tests they do on their water to make sure it's ok? Or maybe just cycle through several gallons? Switch to deionized rather than RO? Any tips appreciated. 

Here's a shot of the viv as it is now.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Heya froggers!

She viv looks pretty good today. One of the brom buds started to flower! The water looks pretty good too and the shrimp is acting normally. I've been measuring the temp and humidity near the top of the tank and at ground level. At the top the temp is 78.0 degrees with 94% humidity and at the bottom it is 73.8 degrees and 99% humidity. Seems ok but maybe a bit high? I can still widen my gap on top if need be to bring the temp and humidity down a little. 

During the tear down I found a few small earthworms in the substrate. Would there be any concerns about reintroducing them to the new setup? I figure they would be good for substrate health since finding worms in the garden always meant my soil was good. 

I should be seeding the viv with isos and springtails before the end of the month too. Any recommendations on which species are best for leucomelas?

Today I'll start building the 5.5g quarantine tank so that I can *hopefully* get them sweet lil leucomelas around the first of May and be able to put them in their permanent tank around the first of June. 

Thoughts?

Thanks!


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Beuller? Beuller?

Just hoping for a bit more feedback on some of these questions? Thanks!!

Junaid


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## Weston (Mar 21, 2015)

There's not an advantage between the isos and springtails per se. The isos handle more of the decaying plant and organic matter and the springs more moulds and "invisible" elements.
I'm probably not the most authoritative source, but I might be inclined to try and let the humidity fluctuate some
Cool viv!


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Are those open gaps where the cork bark is mounted? 
Those cheap digital gauges don't do well in high humidity. I had them when i first started in all my vivs. After a short period of time they all read 99% when i knew that wasn't the case. They collect moisture inside them and give false readings.
To me that viv just doesn't have enough floor space. You have also killed your best viewing spot with a pool the frogs won't use.


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## JMims (Jul 15, 2013)

Yeah your best off to ditch the water feature, increase floor space, and get a nice layer of leaf litter.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Thanks for the replies! 

I was looking at it and yeah, you might be right, I'm thinking I may have made the pond a bit too big. From what I've read leucomelas will climb so I'm hoping they'll use the sides of the water cascade wood. The wood also has a fin that rises underneath it and has some nice hiding areas behind it. So it actually has a little more square inches of floor space than the pics show. But yeah, I think I might add that rock in the corner. Moss it all up. Maybe that's where I'll put the flies. 

Those are open gaps between the cork, I'm getting more live moss to fill them in a bit more and also some black contact paper for the outside. All of the cork was sawed flat on the back with a miter saw so that frogs can't (hopefully) wedge themselves behind them. 

Any recommendations on a good hygrometer/thermometer combo unit? Preferably one that has probes that can run to a display outside the tank.

For the springtails and Isos, I intend to get both but was more wondering which species of each one is preferred for Leucomelas.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Any springs and dwarf white iso are good and breed fast. 
The gaps are what I was going to ask about but you got that covered.


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## JMims (Jul 15, 2013)

My Giant orange iso's really establish well in all of my vivs.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Orange are about the slowest to get to good numbers with. They are the best looking imo though. I been thinking about getting one of those nano exos and putting some extras in it. Be a cool no work desk viv.


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## JMims (Jul 15, 2013)

I've found that they can produce pretty quick especially if I leave the adults in the cultures I pull from since they take a while to mature...I think Pumilo had a thread about them on here somewhere.
Sorry about the derail

Edit:
Here's the thread for anyone who might be interested:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/157202-giant-orange-isopod-reproduction-speed.html


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the info.

I just returned from a week and a half on the road. My roomie kept up the misting and the tank looks mostly good. One fern and another small plant didn't survive the root baring, bleach, etc. but one orchid is growing a new leaf and the pup on the large white fringed bladed plant is kicking butt. One fern isn't looking hot but seems to want to live, so I'm letting it fight it out. I'm still looking for the data sheets on the plants that I misplaced.

The water did accumulate a small amount of scum that seemed to be at least partly silicone. I've drained, filled, drained, filled, drained, and filled again. I'm going to leave the water alone for a few days and see if any more of this slime accumulates. Everything on the forums seemed to indicate that silicone II was fine to use. Is this just a matter of matter of not enough cure time before I put water in? Should I drain the tank completely and let it sit for a few days? Is cycling water through a few times going to do the trick? Any insights into this?

Thanks!


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Hey all!

The water seems to be pretty clean. I drained it again after it sat for a couple of days and there was none of the scum. I refilled it with RO water and let it go all night. There was some stuff floating on the surface so I used a small hose to skim the surface of all debris and floaty bits and then topped up the water. I've used rocks to fill in some of the water feature and will be using some sand or small gravel to fill in any gaps between rocks. The pond should end up being about 40% of its original size and more of it will be wading depth. I'll be doing some work on it today, including making a moss slurry and painting it on a few spots.

The qt tank came together quite nicely and easily. It's a split level with a nice wood piece separating the two levels. A lava rock/leca layer is being used as a drainage with my home mixed substrate on top. There are only a few plants and rocks for decor/hiding, some moss in a few areas, some leaf litter, and a shallow water dish.

I stopped by feeder frenzy to buy springtails, isopods, fruit fly cultures, vitamins, leaf litter, and also got a bag of ABG that I'll be topping off my home blend with. I also bought a trio of leucomelas(!!!!!) that are about 5 mo out of water. I failed to write down the name of the guy who imported this line, but they are the green toed/footed morph. I seeded the qt tank with some isopods and springtails and put the frogs in there. They hadn't been fed yet so we got to do our first dusting of flys and feeding. They started snapping them right up and have been exploring and climbing around. One seems to be a bit more shy than the other two, but it has also been out and about to explore.

The qt tank came out so well that I feel pretty good about having them live there for a month. It'll give me a chance to finish tweaking and peaking the main tank and to let it grow in a bit. 

Oh, I also bought a pitcher plant to live outside the terrarium to help catch wayward fruit flys. Has anyone had success using these to help with that or am I simply indulging myself here?

Also, any comments on the scum thing I talked about above? Things seem ok but I'd like to know better what it might have been and wether it might still pose an invisible threat to the frogs.

I'm putting together an order of culture supplies and was looking at getting a hydro/thermo unit while I'm at it. Any recommendations on some good models that won't crap out on me in a couple of months?

Thanks for the feedback everyone!


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Frogs are doing great! Here's a pic of the one we're calling The Cuddler.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Heya froggers!

Wow, it's been a long time since I've posted here. 

So, my leucs are doing great and the tank has really grown on well. The moss has softened up some part and the plants are growing really well. I've had four bromeliad pups grow out, two have been removed from the mother and mounted elsewhere, two are just about ready to be cut. I've added a few plants here and there, some micro ferns, a big brom, and I also added a cocohut. I haven't heard any calling at all but the frogs don't seem to be growing so I figure it won't be too long. Perhaps they are waiting for spring or something. I do a playback for them every few weeks and one of them gets really animated and comes to the front to start climbing the glass. So I think I've got at least one male. Of the other two, one investigates the call a bit, the other just hangs out and watches the other two. I've switched them over to hydei, which they seem to love just as much as the melanomagasters. I add some springtails and Isos every few weeks, mainly because my cultures become crowded, the population in the tank seems fine with plenty of big isos roaming. I have about four species of mushroom that pop up here and there, so that's fun. 

I also built a new tank, 18x18x18, and it is housing two azureus. I'm almost certain that they are a M/F due to differences in their back hump, the toe pads, and relative size. The last couple of weeks I keep thinking I hear a call but when I go over to listen, nothing. I figure they are probably still at least a few months from being full grown, so I'm probably just fooling myself about them starting to call. Their tank was far easier to build after the experience of the first and doing a bunch more poking around old threads here. The plants have taken off in there and one of my bromeliads is even blooming right now, which is super cool. It attracts the flies so I see the frogs hunting there. 

Anyway, it's been a lot of fun and I just love watching them hop around, wack up flies, and climb walls.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Looking good, Junaid! Glad everything is going so well. What is the humidity in the tank in the picture? It's tough to tell from the picture but it looks really wet in there.

Mark


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Hard to tell. I've wasted a few digital hygrometers in there. They read high 70s to about 90 percent for a while then they seem to crap out and just read 99. I had a dial one in there for a while (now in the azureus tank) that was always around 75-90, so I'm pretty sure that about where it's at. It is fairly wet since this was taken right after I misted. The leaves on the plants are always dry except after misting. The little cascade has a very low trickle of water and the (previously huge) pond is only a tiny shallow puddle now. I filled it in with pebbles and small round stones. The picture is pretty bad, iPad, since my digital camera broke.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

OH, I almost forgot, one of my orchids is sending up a flower spike. I really wasn't expecting it to bloom again!


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Yeah, humidity is always tough to sense properly, at least with the crappy hygrometers I have always had. Does the condensation on the glass go away eventually after misting? Good news about the orchid 

Mark


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

No the condensation on the glass is pretty much always there. I wipe it in the mornings and it's usually back in a couple of hours. I recently got some little computer fans so I'm planning to rig them up to pull air from the top front of the tank. My house is generally about 5degrees cooler than the tanks (which are always 70-79), so I figure the coolness of the glass and the lack of air movement is what's causing the condensation. I'll be curious to see how adding some air movement will affect things. I'm hoping I can keep the glass clearer and also get the overnight temps to drop into the high 60s, something they rarely do.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

If you have had several hygrometers 'crap out' at 99% it usually means the sensor is water-logged. This is usually because humidity is... 99% lol.

Condensation sucks but I suggest rigging your computer fans pushing outside air IN to the vivarium along the front glass. PC fans don't have much power and trying to get them to 'pull' air OUT of the vivarium isn't very effective. You can rig the fan(s) to a timer and play with how often/long you have to run them. 

Not sure what your top looks like but just resting the PC fan on the top of the vivarium where the screen is exposed works pretty well. SOunds like your tank is pretty wet already but still keep an eye on humidity~65-90% is ideal. I run my fan 10min every hour during lights on and mist with my mistking 3x a day for 7 seconds.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Yeah, the hygrometers worked for a while and then just stopped. Even after I took them out they stayed at 99 for days before going down. I just don't think they can take prolonged high humidity. 

Thanks for the tip, I'll try pushing air first. I'm still not sure about how I'll set up the timing thou. My top is totally sealed, I drilled small holes along the plastic at the top of the door to provide air flow. It doesn't seem to actually move any air though, hence getting the fans. Now I'm thinking I might just slide my top glass back an inch and install some screen across the gap. I had thought about this at the beginning but many of the simple builds I looked at just sealed em up and that's how the place I got my leucomelas from had it set up too. The frogs and plants seem to be perfectly happy in there but I would prefer to have no/less condensation on the glass. Hmm.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Apparently my leucs have excavated a hole under a large rock in their viv. I just saw one disappear down it. Now I'm watching like a hawk so I can fill in the hole after the lil leuc comes out. I wouldn't mind, except I'm afraid it will get trapped under there. I hope it comes out soon so I don't have to excavate myself. 

Edit: ok, frog is out, hole is filled. For now. 

Anyone else ever have their frogs dig?


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

My auratus always seem to dig into one of the corners under the background and wedge themselves into impossibly tiny cracks or crevices. Many terrestrial frogs do live in the mud/leaf litter so burrowing or diving into the substrate is natural. 

My biggest fear is one of the frogs getting into the false bottom. That would be a nightmare to get out.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Also, darts can swim pretty well, and 2" of water is nothing to worry about for healthy frogs, so long as there is an easy exit route and no areas where the frog can get stuck under water.


I'd like to add to your post that I would only do water features with that deep of water for healthy adults. Froglets tend to be not as agile and more clumsy.

Also is fecal testing really necessary if you get them from a highly reputable source? Like say Shawn Harrington


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Yeah, my water feature has become progressively smaller. At this point it amounts to a short cascade and a shallow puddle less than 1/2" deep and a few inches around. 

As for fecal smears, most of the experienced frogger a here seem to think it is necessary but it seems that in practice many frogger do a 30-day and if the frogs seem ok, they put them in their permanent enclosure. I'm really not qualified to have an opinion on it though.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'd like to add to your post that I would only do water features with that deep of water for healthy adults. Froglets tend to be not as agile and more clumsy.
> 
> Also is fecal testing really necessary if you get them from a highly reputable source? Like say Shawn Harrington


For both of the statements I have to ask how do you know that?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

It's common sense that the young of all animals even humans are clumsy.
The second thing about the fecal testing was a question, not a statement.



srrrio said:


> For both of the statements I have to ask how do you know that?



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Also is fecal testing really necessary if you get them from a highly reputable source? Like say Shawn Harrington


How do you define necessary? I fecal and Ranavirus/Bd test EVERY new frog I get, regardless of source, but that's just the way I choose to do things. I know some people that have kept frogs that lived into their late teens that probably never had a health check, just good husbandry, and no exposure to pathogens that affected them badly. 
Buying from a reputable, longstanding breeder is a really good start, but I don't know anyone (including me!) that would guarantee their frogs to be parasite free.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> It's common sense that the young of all animals even humans are clumsy.
> The second thing about the fecal testing was a question, not a statement.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


Okay, got you on the fecal question and Dane gave you a great answer. 

The common sense thing .. well perhaps, but I am generally amazed at how agile young frogs are.

I was just watching this evening as an auratus froglet jumped back into his glass dish he had morphed from a couple of days ago with 2 inches of water. I let most of my frogs transport and most froglets and even some of the adults tend to jump back in the tad containers when they are startled. Years ago I did lose a froglet or 2 in the tadpole dishes. I have wondered if the improvement in supplements especially, calcium ,has helped with this. I am thinking of the seizures that happen because of a calcium deficiency, maybe brought on by being startled/stressed caused them to drown.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

srrrio said:


> Okay, got you on the fecal question and Dane gave you a great answer.
> 
> The common sense thing .. well perhaps, but I am generally amazed at how agile young frogs are.
> 
> I was just watching this evening as an auratus froglet jumped back into his glass dish he had morphed from a couple of days ago with 2 inches of water. I let most of my frogs transport and most froglets and even some of the adults tend to jump back in the tad containers when they are startled. Years ago I did lose a froglet or 2 in the tadpole dishes. I have wondered if the improvement in supplements especially, calcium ,has helped with this. I am thinking of the seizures that happen because of a calcium deficiency, maybe brought on by being startled/stressed caused them to drown.


Yeah I didn't even see Dane nor did I get a notification of his response 

I guess some could be more agile than others but I did answer out of intuition and whatnot more than I did of my own experience. 
My frogs were like 6 or 7 months old before I put them in my Paludarium and still then I pushed each one of them into the water to test their ability to get out of the water. 
Since then I have seen them jump off the top of the waterfall down into the water below there is a pretty good distance from the top of the rock to the water lol. I have also even seen them jump in the water and swim around and then get back out. 
Here is my Paludarium.









So yeah the probability of a froglet drowning or not swimming all that great just seems like it would be higher than an adult which is more agile and stronger. Btw when I say froglet I'm really emphasizing on frogs that are fresh out of the water up to about 5 or 6 months.


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