# Vacation feeding specifics



## Smurf (Nov 29, 2014)

I'm going away for 10 days. I have read a lot of threads about vacation feeding, but I still have some questions.

20H tank, 2 tincs.

My plan is to put an old culture (~1.5 months old) into the tank. Some people talk about drilling a hole in the side, some people talk about a hole in the top with a mesh cover... does it make a difference? A hole in the side seems easiest so I will probably go with that.

Is there anything I haven't thought of here? Just a hole in a culture and go?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

They should be fine if you do nothing. Most dendrobatids are obese to grossly obese to start with and a diet may be in order. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Ed said:


> They should be fine if you do nothing. Most dendrobatids are obese to grossly obese to start with and a diet may be in order.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


So, Ed - assuming he's been feeding them every other day as adults (or every day as froglets), which seems to be the most referenced feeding schedule - a 10 day diet with no food or supplements would be ok? If the tank is heavily seeded with microfauna, granted, the frogs could still find snacks every now and then, but what about the vitamin supplements? 

Just curious, as I will be in the same position of being away for about a week and am wanting to plan out my feeding situation as well. Thanks!


----------



## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

Gibbs.JP said:


> So, Ed - assuming he's been feeding them every other day as adults (or every day as froglets), which seems to be the most referenced feeding schedule - a 10 day diet with no food or supplements would be ok? If the tank is heavily seeded with microfauna, granted, the frogs could still find snacks every now and then, but what about the vitamin supplements?
> 
> Just curious, as I will be in the same position of being away for about a week and am wanting to plan out my feeding situation as well. Thanks!


Sorry I'm not Ed, but I figured I would put in my $0.02 here as well. It takes a longer time than most would expect for frogs to become deficient in the vitamins this hobby emphasizes. Especially with tanks holding calcium substrate.

I used to volunteer at my school Greenhouse, and it had a cobalt terrarium. With all due respect, the staff knew plants but not frogs. The animals basically survived on random, non-supplemented lab flies, occasional termites, and whatever aphids were stuck in their tank for 9 years. When I came around, they were skinny as a rail and reproductively...Dysfunctional. However, none of them displayed seizures, STS or any other nutritional issues--problems that I'd expect, despite the diversity of "natural" Greenhouse pests they ate. I shared some near-expired supplements with them for a few months, and by the end of the year they produced at least one strong froglet. Just anecdotal evidence, I know, but it was enough to convince me that darts' nutrient reserves can outlast a 10-day vacation.


----------



## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Take a newly producing fly culture and put a 1/8" hole in the lid and lay it on its side in the tank. Has always worked well with short trips away.


----------



## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

I don't worry about my adult frogs not being fed for a week or so. For froglets (or if you're just nervous) you can put some banana in the tank about 5-7 days before leaving for a vacation, feed heavily a couple times... Fresh flies will hatch out in tank 3-5 days after you leave- not too many either. Take the banana out when you get home.


----------



## Smurf (Nov 29, 2014)

Ed said:


> They should be fine if you do nothing. Most dendrobatids are obese to grossly obese to start with and a diet may be in order.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


10 days is a long time... Maybe they can survive, but would I be making them suffer? I don't think you can assure me that they wouldn't be suffering as I bring them to the brink of starvation. I think I'd rather put an old culture in there.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> They should be fine if you do nothing. Most dendrobatids are obese to grossly obese to start with and a diet may be in order.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


10 days is a while, especially if there isn't a thriving microfauna population present. What if the frogs in question haven't been overfed for an extended period prior? What about refeeding syndrome?


----------



## scotty1212 (Feb 15, 2016)

Ive never left that long without feeding my frogs and im not sure i would ever feel comfortable doing so. Rather be safe than sorry right! Anyways, putting a culture in there sounds like a good idea. Good luck!


----------



## roundfrog (Jan 27, 2016)

Make sure you have ventilation, as a culture produces a lot of CO2.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> 10 days is a while, especially if there isn't a thriving microfauna population present. What if the frogs in question haven't been overfed for an extended period prior? What about refeeding syndrome?


Refeeding syndrome is only a risk if the frog has not only totally depleted its fat stores but its muscles to the point that ions and glucose are actually being pulled out of the cells and then you have to feed the frog more than 50% of its caloric needs in one large lump so it causes the movement of those ions back out of the blood stream as required for active transport of glucose and other nutrients which causes the animals to go into shock. 

If your frog ends up in that condition after only ten days then it wasn't in very good condition to start and is at risk of death regardless. 

So lets go with the scenario that the microfauna isn't abundent ... Isn't abundant isn't the same as absent and these frogs have much lower metabolic requirements than people think.. 

People consistently overestimate the caloric needs of these animals. When people talk about the frog being plump it is already at the least obese and is probably grossly obese as the primary fat stores in the frogs are in the forms of fat pads in the abdominal cavity. As a result if the frog looks plump/fat it is because the pads are large enough to deform the abdominal shape. 

A frog of a healthy weight should have good muscle amounts and should lack as distended abdomen. Look at the frogs in the field guides to get an idea of how their body shape should appear.

One of the most common biological responses in amphibians and reptiles is that they reduce their metabolism in response to reductions in food availability which is in no small part how they are able to survive the dry season when the ability to forage is limited or non-existent. This is also why they don't have to get all of their calories on a daily basis or even every several of days or for a couple of weeks. They simply slow down their metabolism. 

As I've calculated and posted in the past, an actively growing froglet requires the caloric equivalent of 5.2 D. melanogasters/day to sustain their basal metabolic requirements. These calories can come from fat/glycogen stores just as readily as they can come from ingesting food and when considered a ten day fast is a really short time for these kinds of animals. 

As for the entire froglet argument, once again a frog fed like the hobby suggests is going to have sufficient fat stores to continue to grow (and this is without even considering the potential impact fast growth may have in the longer term). 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Smurf said:


> 10 days is a long time... Maybe they can survive, but would I be making them suffer? I don't think you can assure me that they wouldn't be suffering as I bring them to the brink of starvation. I think I'd rather put an old culture in there.


So its okay to inflict fatty livers, the risk of corneal lipidosis and the other issues that result from obesity? A ten day fast is well within the norms of these animals and can actually promote better health. See my response to Dane. 

some comments. 

Ed


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> Refeeding syndrome is only a risk if the frog has not only totally depleted its fat stores but its muscles to the point that ions and glucose are actually being pulled out of the cells and then you have to feed the frog more than 50% of its caloric needs in one large lump so it causes the movement of those ions back out of the blood stream as required for active transport of glucose and other nutrients which causes the animals to go into shock.
> 
> If your frog ends up in that condition after only ten days then it wasn't in very good condition to start and is at risk of death regardless.
> 
> ...


As such, assuming an animal with fat stores and muscle mass proportionate to a wild copart, would you suggest that it is more beneficial or detrimental to offer sustenance during the absence?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gibbs.JP said:


> So, Ed - assuming he's been feeding them every other day as adults (or every day as froglets), which seems to be the most referenced feeding schedule - a 10 day diet with no food or supplements would be ok? If the tank is heavily seeded with microfauna, granted, the frogs could still find snacks every now and then, but what about the vitamin supplements?
> 
> Just curious, as I will be in the same position of being away for about a week and am wanting to plan out my feeding situation as well. Thanks!


Ten days isn't even close to depleating the stored fat soluble vitamins in their tissues much less water soluble ones. The fact that they can simply slow their metabolism down reduces demand for the vitamins just like it does the calories. 

This is what a frog fed every 7-10 days looks like.

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> As such, assuming an animal with fat stores and muscle mass proportionate to a wild copart, would you suggest that it is more beneficial or detrimental to offer sustenance during the absence?


I'm going to ask you a question in response. What do you think they do during the dry season when their ability to forage is limited? See the following for their activity periods during the dry season. 

See Born, Marga, et al. "Dry-season retreat and dietary shift of the dart-poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius (Anura: Dendrobatidae)." Phyllomedusa: Journal of Herpetology 9.1 (2010): 37-52.

A frog of comparable body mass and reserves is going to be fine during ten days as the weight loss is going to be minimal (considering that a larger frog such as an adult tinct is still going to require less than the caloric requirements of 15-20 ffs per day to meet basic metabolic needs) so its not going to harm them. 

Attempting to cast a frog of a weight more typical of a wild frog into the benefit/deficit isn't really of any value as it ignores the third category of it doesn't have to be either beneficial or a negative, it could be a neutral as they are adapted to deal with those scenarios without any harm. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Ed, aside from occasional periods of fasting, what is your feeding routine? 

I often feel guilty because my feeding schedule can get sporadic- ranging from every other day to once or twice a week. Lately I've been feeding every 3 days... The frogs seem to hide out the first day after feeding- I assume they are "full" and don't need to forage, then I get 2 days of active viewing. More viewing = more enjoyment for me. More enjoyment for me = more Catholic guilt... Surely I'm making the frogs suffer for my own selfish motives.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> I'm going to ask you a question in response. What do you think they do during the dry season when their ability to forage is limited? See the following for their activity periods during the dry season.
> 
> See Born, Marga, et al. "Dry-season retreat and dietary shift of the dart-poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius (Anura: Dendrobatidae)." Phyllomedusa: Journal of Herpetology 9.1 (2010): 37-52.


I had some trouble locating information on the study you suggested. Based on what I have read elsewhere, I would expect that during the dry season, when temperatures soar, and ambient humidity drops, the frogs and their potential food both retreat under the leaf litter, as close to, or as far below the substrate line as they can. I wouldn't suspect that they stop eating all together. Would it also seem reasonable that frog population densities dwindle a bit during this period, as animals with underlying infections or other maladies are taken down due to diminished nutritional intake, and harsher environmental conditions?
This is purely an anecdote based on my own experiences, but I have lost a pair of tinctorius, and a group of sirensis, (separate occasions) after an absence of 6-7 days, followed by a fly crash that deprived them of food for a further 2-3 days. They didn't die immediately afterward, but their weight began to drop significantly, and they were dead within 2-3 weeks following the interruption in feeding schedule. Were they on death's door prior to me leaving? Certainly not that I could tell. Body mass and breeding activity were on par with the rest of my collection, and the one necropsy that I was able to afford revealed nothing but a mild hookworm infection (which based on the 2-3 fecals that I run on every pair/group I have while in QT, is SUPER common among darts). Based on these experiences, even despite your suggestions, I would still try to include some sort of delayed release feeder option if I am ever gone for that length of time again.
To further the discussion with a hypothetical situation regarding obligate and non-obligate eggfeeders, do you think that the parent female would be able to continue producing the same quality/quantity of feeder eggs during a period of 10+ days if regular feeding/supplementation is brought to a halt?


----------



## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I have 5 tinc froglets in a 40 breeder that has a lot of ground cover, leaf litter and hides. I seeded it with springtails a month before putting the frogs in. There are also mites and fungus gnats in there. I have 3 bottle caps in there, with a small piece of banana in each bottle cap. I think, in the last 6 weeks or so, I've averaged 1 feeding p/wk. 
There are always FFs in the tank and on the bananas and the frogs are all a healthy weight. Actually, they all have little bellies on them. (Again, I'm only adding FFs about once p/week)
After about a week or 2, I see larvae in the banana.
So, I'm going away for a week in the beginning of August. Based on what I've seen going on in the tank so far, I'm going to put 3 small pieces of banana in there about a week before I leave, dump in a few dozen FFs and more springtails. The day I leave, I will feed them again.
There will probably still be FFs in there when I get back. 
I think if you do something similar, they will be fine for 10 days.
My biggest concern while I'm gone is temp parameters.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> I had some trouble locating information on the study you suggested. Based on what I have read elsewhere, I would expect that during the dry season, when temperatures soar, and ambient humidity drops, the frogs and their potential food both retreat under the leaf litter, as close to, or as far below the substrate line as they can. I wouldn't suspect that they stop eating all together.


Some points to consider about this;
1) these are diurnal foraging frogs, there shouldn't be much of an expectation that they are going to be feeding when the have been forced that deep into cover. 
2) Your comment has the implicit that they could go days without feeding or ingesting significant amounts of food item. 
3). There can be significant changes in the quality of the food items captured. In other taxa such as Plethodontids the retreat to cover during dry spells also results in the consumption of poorer quality food items (example ants when unable to actively forage and termites and springtails during the periods they can forage. 

So in short the expectation should be that the frogs are still dependent on the fat reserves to get them through that periods just like in short to moderate vacations periods. 




Dane said:


> Would it also seem reasonable that frog population densities dwindle a bit during this period, as animals with underlying infections or other maladies are taken down due to diminished nutritional intake, and harsher environmental conditions?


This is a reasonable assumption provided that it also accepts that those factors can also eliminate frogs during the rainy period. 



Dane said:


> This is purely an anecdote based on my own experiences, but I have lost a pair of tinctorius, and a group of sirensis, (separate occasions) after an absence of 6-7 days, followed by a fly crash that deprived them of food for a further 2-3 days.


I think there needs to be a further discussion on the anecdotal observations and interpretations of those observations. 

One of great things about these forums is that people share anecdotal and in some forums peer reviewed information on these animals in a way that helps to push the hobby forward. Where the hobby runs into issues is when there are interpretations that are automatically assigned as the cause despite it being against documented evidence. 

We can see this happening for a very long time in the terms of the hobby, examples include the risks of vitamin A toxicity, the ability of the frogs to use beta carotene as their source of vitamin A, keeping the frogs at temperatures below their optimal ranges due to the belief that maximal humidity is required and I can continue in this trend for a good bit yet. 

As a *very conservative opinion/interpretation* of what happened in your case I should note that passing two clean fecals doesn't mean that there weren't parasites present in the frogs. A clean fecal does not mean that an animal is free of parasites it just means that none were found in the fecal at that time. As an example, there is direct evidence that coccidians can persist in the frogs undetected throughout the life of the frogs (through many fecals) and be documented at necropsy. I have a strong expectation that coccidian infections are much widely spread than people expect as treating them with the standard treatments does not eliminate the parasite but simply lets the frog's immune system to keep it under control. 




Dane said:


> They didn't die immediately afterward, but their weight began to drop significantly, and they were dead within 2-3 weeks following the interruption in feeding schedule. Were they on death's door prior to me leaving?


This is consistent with coccidial infections but is also doesn't rule out other options as it is simply an very conservative interpretation for the purpose of this discussion. 



Dane said:


> To further the discussion with a hypothetical situation regarding obligate and non-obligate eggfeeders, do you think that the parent female would be able to continue producing the same quality/quantity of feeder eggs during a period of 10+ days if regular feeding/supplementation is brought to a halt?


Absolutely. People overestimate the number of feedings the frogs provide to their tadpoles, in the wild a tadpole may only be fed ten times during its entire life pre-metamorphosis. 

Also people should keep in mind that in the wild female pumilio do not produce clutches for fertilization during the time they are feeding tadpoles. Egg production is determined by the availability of fats for the yolk, and I would actually argue that the deposition of large clutches during the tadpole feeding period is a bigger risk as it depletes all of the stored reserves as egg production occurs independent of the available vitamins in the females reserves. 

I feed my pumilio every 7-10 days and every few months they could go ten to 14 days without feeding without a problem. The primary differences I've seen are that the frogs produce fewer tadpoles (and when combined with a reduced misting scheme shuts it down) and don't produce additional clutches during that period. I tried to get some shots of the adults but they are being camera shy so here is a older froglet that is getting close to adult size that has been fed on the same regimen. 

Breeding shouldn't really be used as a measuring stick of health as it occurs even with sick animals unless it is being used along with some other metrics such as median lifespan approaching maximal lifespans and normal behaviors. If you want we can delve into this part of the argument more as it is related to the topic. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Eloquentidiot (Feb 28, 2013)

Ed said:


> As for the entire froglet argument, once again a frog fed like the hobby suggests is going to have sufficient fat stores to continue to grow (and this is without even considering the potential impact fast growth may have in the longer term).
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Decades ago it was believed that feeding giant breed dogs extremely high levels of protein during development would promote larger growth. It did this, but most of these dogs also ended up with orthopedic abnormalities due to the disparity in bone density etc. Granted giant breed dogs have been line bred for their stature and other desirable characteristics but I would still be inclined to suspect similar issues could result from over-supplementation or even just over-feeding of froglets. 
Aside from predation and parasitization I think in general it's best to try to mimic an animal's natural environment as closely as we are able. From what I've seen many on this forum go above and beyond to do just this but as with many other pets people tend to provide love through food, often to excess.

- Paul


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Eloquentidiot said:


> Decades ago it was believed that feeding giant breed dogs extremely high levels of protein during development would promote larger growth. It did this, but most of these dogs also ended up with orthopedic abnormalities due to the disparity in bone density etc.l


Those studies are still on-going and are showing that allowing the dog to feed ad-libetum is still a high risk for the dog developing hip dysplasia see for example Sallander, Marie H., Åke Hedhammar, and Mari EH Trogen. "Diet, exercise, and weight as risk factors in hip dysplasia and elbow arthrosis in Labrador Retrievers." The Journal of nutrition 136.7 (2006): 2050S-2052S. 

Another example of this sort is the claim that feeding parakeets a diet high in protein results in kidney disease. What it turned out was really going on was that high protein diets did not cause kidney disease it caused the birds that already had kidney disease to show symptoms. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

I normally take the lid off a very old ff culture and lay it on it's side, or I poke a small hole in the lid of a ff culture about 1/2 way through it's cycle. The adults do fine on that and don't typically appear any different when I get back. From my own observations, froglets (tincs and auratus at least) under the age of about 4 months will appear noticeable thinner after just a few days (like 4 days). I wouldn't go 10 days on froglets. Maybe adult terribillis.

Mike


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> As a *very conservative opinion/interpretation* of what happened in your case I should note that passing two clean fecals doesn't mean that there weren't parasites present in the frogs. A clean fecal does not mean that an animal is free of parasites it just means that none were found in the fecal at that time. As an example, there is direct evidence that coccidians can persist in the frogs undetected throughout the life of the frogs (through many fecals) and be documented at necropsy. I have a strong expectation that coccidian infections are much widely spread than people expect as treating them with the standard treatments does not eliminate the parasite but simply lets the frog's immune system to keep it under control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't think I mentioned that they passed two clean fecals, merely that I include 2-3 tests in my regimen. I would hope that I am far enough along in the game that I wouldn't expect one (or several) negative tests to mean 'clean' or parasite-free frogs. I think you may have misinterpreted my conclusion as to what happened to the frogs as I DID suspect a non-evident infection. I did not consider that merely being without food for a period made them continue to lose weight once regular feedings resumed. The symptoms expressed in the animals I mentioned seemed to be consistent with coccidia (among other things), but without a positive test, I didn't want to dose them unnecessarily. Were the deaths due to a preexisting infection? Maybe. Could something totally unrelated to a parasite have caused the decline? I guess. It is just a strange coincidence that their demise was so closely timed with the reduced feedings.
I too give my frogs a seasonal break, where I let the vivs dry up a bit, run the AC less, and only feed every 4-7 days, but I am able to monitor them during these periods, unlike being away from the collection for a week and a half.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It drew comments as the way it was read could be interpreted as a cause and effect which when I typically see as a possible meaning tends to draw a more conservative interpretation from me to try and cover the basis. You mentioned a light hookworm infection, and indicated it was treated which is why I didn't bring that up as potential cause of weight loss when the feeding was interrupted. 



Dane said:


> I did not consider that merely being without food for a period made them continue to lose weight once regular feedings resumed.


There are a lot of reasons why resuming feeding can cause a continued loss of weight and most of them are due to something causing issues with the GI tract such as coccidians, an overgrowth of normal commensuals in the GI tract. The problem with coccidia is that if insects can move between enclosures they can transmit the coccidia between enclosures. Many coccidians and their normal hosts are adapted to one another and unless something really upsets the immunocompetence of the animal it doesn't shed the coccidian. Now if it was not a coccidian adapted to those frogs and gets into the enclosure, you can see an outbreak. This is just one hypothetical scenario but we're getting away from the point I was trying to make, we have to be careful in these sorts of scenarios from attributing cause and effect as a direct result of the observation particularly when it contradicts the biology of the animals in question. 

Here is a picture of one of the adults that has been on a once a week feeding for several years now when I got this frog it was a very washed out yellow orange. 


some comments 

Ed


----------



## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Discussion aside, those are some nice frogs Ed!
Sorry, continue on.


----------

