# The Great Bombina orientalis coloration Mystery



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have asked around and around from all sorts of boards, and just nobody knows. 

Whoever keeps the "toadily awesome" little disglossids, anybody have a toad that was bright green at the store, and then turned olive green to black, and never changed back?

I hear all of these dubious rumors that it is from them spending large amounts of time in the water. One of my toads, Roger, used to soak in the water all the time and was bright green. I have seen too many set ups with mostly water and they spend a good deal of time there.

Then, you hear that they change permanently dark because of unhappiness with husbandry. Well, my toads are as fat as day and active for the last two years. You also hear that they are only green when they are stressed. That is obviously not the case, as even in the wild the toads are bright and colorful, even more so than captive bred.

They are still cool anurans, but they are always that ugly coloration. 

I have deduced it down to three options. Coloration of substrate, lighting, and temperature. My temperature is always around 74-80, changing depending on the season slightly. I plan on moving them to the basement where it will be much cooler.

The lighting I have is only a single fluorescent bulb for a 10 gallon. The substrate is coco bedding with shagnum moss.

Any help would be appreciated to solve this chronic mystery.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Funny, I heard it might be dietary? Kinda like santa isabel tricolors being bubblegum pink except if you suppliment the diet... then they are the bright lipstick red. But then you get those animals that have the olive with a couple of splashes of the original bright green, not showing the gradual fade in color that would be dietary.

Anyone keeping Bombina maxima in the states? I've kinda wondered about the species and wanted to try my hand with them.


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## amphibianfreak (Jul 21, 2004)

I would think it is due to the fact that almost all of them you see in the petstores are wild caught imports. They are bright green do to having a varied diet in the wild, while after being in captivity for a certain amount of time it's usually just dusted crickets and the coloration fades or turns ugly.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2005)

most amphibians in pet stores are wild caught?!


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2005)

i know this is going to sound weird but my father used to have them and they stayed bright green he said the trick was to dust the crickets with paprika 
not the terrible papkrika you get in the grocery store but the really strong stuff you get at an indian grocery store, mostly refered to as spanish paprika.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I don't know if I can agree with the greens being relative to good husbandry. I had a firebelly a while back that disappeared, and I thought that it had escaped, so I removed everything from its 5 gal except the false bottom and about an inch of horribly dirty water. Then the tank sat for AN ENTIRE MONTH, and I paid no attention to it, until I decided to totally drain it and toss it. So, as I'm stripping the false bottom who do I see? A slighly thin, but very green firebelly! I have no idea how it survived that long, but I guess it's a testament to their hardiness.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

That may be the trick after all. However, that doesn't explain why so many people I know still have green fire bellies, while mine darkened THE DAY AFTER I brought them home from the pet store.

What is the real temperature range for B. orientalis? I disagree with warm temps, as they are native to the mountains of Korea, but it is true, they have a wide range down into Thailand.

You've got a point there, Corey. My two bombinas have a small splotch of green on their back that has always stayed there. I don't know why.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Do you think that they could have been Bombina variegata instead? I have my B. orientalis in an enclosure that is 60% water, keep them in the low to mid 70's and they are still green. We also have B. variegata that we got about 5 years ago from a breeder. The variegata have a yellowish belly, and are about 25% larger than the B. orientalis. I feed both gutloaded crickets, superworms and large field sweepings, but nothing for color. The orientalis get dark once in a while and the variegata do get lighter, just seems to depend on their mood. 

They are great and I really like them a lot, I'm still surprized that they have all their fingers and toes, they are such aggressive feeders. 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I highly doubt they are varigata from my experience. If we are talking pet store fire bellies, these are the cheap imported korean firebellies, have the nice orange-red belly markings going on, but have either come in olive already, or quickly go that way. For a color change to occur over just a couple days, I'd lean towards stress, diet changes wouldn't be that drastic. If you got them recently imported (and thus less stressed) and into a good environment.... they might have staid green like already mentioned. But then why wouldn't animals in good environments go back to bright green (which I've never heard of them doing)?

Guess its not food after all, tho I can't doubt they don't get very good diets anyways.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

yah, definitely they were crowded and prone to stress at the store. While I have definitely learned that my nitrate levels have been too high, pH is much, much better and low levels of nitrates. The frogs are still their normal, olive green.

Once again, what is the temp range for korean firebellies? I have kept mine at 75-80. it can get up to 84 degrees in the summer.

But even when the water temp has dropped, they still are dark...

I'm going to have to play around with different things to find out. My frogs are definitely MUCH healthier than the crowded, green store toads.

I have a feeling it could have to do with lighting as well, but not sure. I'm going to increase the lighting with Power compacts and drop the temperature to see what happens.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed, can you show us a pick of your B. orientalis enclosure? I'm in the process of building a 15 gal epoxy coated tank that will have an over flow and sump (so I have to change water less frequently, and keep things more stable).


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Strange, mine stayed green without any special treatment, just had them in a viv 60/40 land to water. 

Ryan


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## AJ_Cann (Oct 6, 2004)

Not all B. orientalis are green dorsally:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.cann/Borientalis.html


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Has anyone else besides me noticed how cool these toads calls are?

Ryan


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Yes. The call sounds like a barking dog. 

Firebellies are among my fav frogs, even more so than mantellas even. 
It is unfortunate that these wonderful, bold, active frogs are sold for a measily price and end up in the hands of the careless, much like the awesome pipids, Hymenocheirus and Xenopus.

That just proves that the frog itself, not the money, is what really matters.
What really keeps the hobby itself going.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

AJ, those firebellies are actually showing the discoloration that we are talking about. The frogs pictured on the site are the "brown" or "olive" we are referring to as the color they fade to. Interesting to see those light spots on there.... what is also interesting is these frogs are evidently CB and might never have shown the color.... 

My thoughts on the subject jump back and forth between stress and diet. It could be both, in some cases one or the other, or possibly neither.

Thus, the great mystery.


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## AJ_Cann (Oct 6, 2004)

These Bombina have always been that colour ever since they morphed. They are CB04 and their parents were the same colour. Like I said, not all strains/races of B.orientalis are green. Colour feeding can enhance the red belly colour, but the green dorsal colour is inherent to the strain (with the exception of diseased or highly stressed animals which may change colour).


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

If you go to the petstore, you will find a natural morph that is brown and black ontop. It is not an ugly, mud brown, more of a light tan. It actually is pretty handsome contrasted with the black stripes.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

cyber loach, are you sure, absolutely, that your dad wasn't using paprika for the belly? I've known people to give them paprika because the belly coloration fades.

I wonder if spirulina and paprika would have an effect on firebellied toads.

But, lets say my toads were "stressed," even though they eat well and all. 

What causes "stress?" Nobody really has come forth and told what temp they have kept bombina at. I've read on websites that say they like temp around 72-78. My tank, once again, can run between 75-82. It all depends on the time of day, and what season. My nitrate and pH are decent. The lighting is only a normal fluorescent, and it is pretty shady, as the plants block most of the light. But the water area is decently lit.

However, it was cool in my sister's room one day, and the water temp was only 70 degrees. The frog was lighter, but still rather a gray olive color. 

Could it have anything to do with colony? When you see the toads at the store, they are living in big colonies, perhaps over crowded. I have kept a pair of males in a 10 gallon. I doubt this could be a reason.


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## Angieownsbatman (Jul 30, 2004)

Lol maybe it's just the color they are, or they change on purpose to confuse you. :lol: I have 5. One is bright green (Lump is an ornery lil cuss too, very spunky), one has been very very dark, almost black since I brought him home, one has always been brown, one is very fat and changes between bright green to an olive green randomly, and my female is relatively small and she fluctuates between olive green and dark green. I think they do it on purpose so I have trouble telling them apart.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

There might be a big clue to the the color changing.

I know as a fact, that all bombina at pet stores are usually sold in a big, display tank mostly of gravel with sloping sides with no cover.



If I remember correctly, Roger turned a brilliant green when I removed most of the foliage and had lots of large gravel stones.

My fire bellies have always lived in tanks that have relatively shadowy conditions from foliage. Plus, I have always used moss, even when I had gravel. 

I have noticed my local pet co has changed things. They have the frogs mostly on land. I have noticed the frogs are darker than they are when they are kept with gravel and water. 
There are folks out there that make claims that fire bellies turn darker when they enter the water. If that is true, I know as a fact that Roger spent most of his time on land, while the other male, Chris, spends most of his time in the water. I have never seen Chris turn brighter.

I also have noticed when frogs are exposed from hiding, like when I've had to clean the tank and put them back in, they are lighter.

But as soon as they go into their favorite hiding spot in the coco bedding, they turn nearly black. 

So perhaps it is more camoflage?


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2005)

I'm going to bring this back up as I just bought a trio yesterday and have already noticed color changing. I bought too very bright green ones...and then a darker olive one, just to see what happened. By late in the evening, the two light ones had turned darker (with a few light spots left) and the darker one had even lightened a bit. Today, they seem to be back to how they were. However, I have noticed that the darker one tends to stay in the shadows and beneath the vegetation more, and the two lighter ones tend to favor the open and light-drenched areas. I was leaning toward environmental factors (substrate, light, etc.) as causes of color change, but I was just doing some searching and came across this: 

*"The toads also change color, going through cycles of bright green to dark olive green. Their skin turns dark green when they are about to shed and then after they shed it turns back to bright green. This is a very normal cycle and indicates that they are actually healthy.... The toads are given crickets every other day and can be seen going through the cycle of color changes when they shed. They seem to be doing quite well so far and hopefully will continue to do so."* 
http://www2.mcdaniel.edu/Biology/labani ... /frog.html

Maybe since the last posts on this thread, others have observed something similar?

I also ran across this: http://academic.reed.edu/biology/Theses02.html which contains the abstract, "Stage-Dependent Temperature Effects in Bombina orientalis."


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I can actually see a color change in th Clown TFs before and after shed (I was lucky enough to catch one of my new males in the act). His markings were more of a white with brown speckling and rather dull, and after the shed his markings were bright brilliant yellow. These guys do change color light/dark and stressed, but it was sool to see the change just after he had shed. Going by this I have two others that may be close to shedding, and a juvie that just shed because she was YELLOW.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

You've just experienced exactly what happened to my frogs, except one frog is still very dark green.

They were all bright green, then later, they virtually turned olive permanently. Recently, I have consulted with other people in private groups, and they have said it could be just based on lighting. But I have had frogs stay out in the water all day in the open, and stay still olive green.

Recently, Roger is now bright green, but there is no lighting at all in a quarantine cage I have them in while setting up a new tank. 

This is really interesting, but often they are LIGHTER at night time if you turn a dim light on after they've been in the dark most of the evening.

While I do lean on the fact that it could be lighting, I also think it could be because I need to supplement their diet more. I did notice a little feeding of carrot powder on their food has caused them to turn more green, like Cyber Loach mentioned about Spanish paprika.

What is also possible because Roger has no true hiding places in this temporary tank, as he used to favor crevices and burrows under plants in the old tank. But Chris is always out in the open and he has stayed a darker shade.

But that was with normal output lighting. If I get my PC workign this time, and it doesn't break, perhaps they will color back up again. 

Also, one of my toads' belly has faded, indicating Chris needs some astaxanthin on his food.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2005)

For the last day or so, all three of my toads have held a pretty consistent light green color...even the darker one.

The cover of my tank is just a single sheet of 1/4" acrylic. I usually move it a crack to allow some ventilation and whatnot inside the viv...but haven't done so in the last day, which has caused it to retain all its humidity. Since then, all three toads have maintained a nice green color.

Perhaps humidity has something to do with it?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

When my humidity was near 80-100% in the old, warmer tank, they were a dark, muddy color. 

I've been making a few observations of their behavior lately in the new vivarium.

Roger, has turned a beautiful metallic green, but now is turning back darker, but he was hidden most of the time in the last few days. The new tank has a screen enclosure, but the relative humidity could be lower than what it was a few days ago (50-60% to about 30-40% outside the tank) because they were hidden for the last few days.

Chris, on the other hand, is lighter than he has ever been, but not like he was when I first purchased him about two years ago. He's still an olive color, but more of a washed out color, so you can easily see his splotches of black (its lightened up).

When the frogs come out more at night, they will be darker. When their behavior is more diurnal, they will be lighter color, as they seem to vary their behavior cycles from time to time.

Temp stays around 72-75 degrees. There is a single screw in 19 watt PC light bulb with running water, pond plants, and natural covered gravel and moss.

In my experience, Chris is more active than Roger sometimes during the day, in broad daylight. While he turns lighter, he never has turned a brilliant shade of green like his buddy Roger.

I am going to be feeding my bombina some spirulina and cyclopeeze for a while dusted on their food and see what happens. I have that too. My frogs have one or two tiny specks of bright green on their back, and no more. But when Roger turned a brilliant green, you could just barely, barely tell where the two green spots were.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2005)

*Coloration*

I got two oriental bombinas. They tend to switch back and forth between dark dark green and bright green. They were bright green at the store, and for a while after that. 
I tend to see that my toads are dark green almost black when in the water which is also dark due to the presence of moss underwater. But when I see them above water, sometimes they are bright green.


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## Mikko (Sep 23, 2005)

I think these colour-changing phenomenons are very interesting topics, though they have been studied since the beginning of 1900´s, but still they and their backgrounds aren´t known comprehensively.

But as my opinion, I would assume that these colour changes we are talking about(darkening for a long time), it must be about morphological colour change caused by several physiological changes that cause darkening with most anurans and more important the combinations of these changes, and these factors include e.g low temperatures, high humidity, low light, local light conditions, dark colour of background and lack of stress(this with a little reserve, since with some anurans like pipids it´s the opposite). And of course there are also other reasons than physiological changes that might launch the morphological colour change, but I wouldn´t consider them obvious in these cases. But morphological changes aren´t permanent in anurans, or atleast that´s what I have heard, but they do can last for months. 

So I would consider that it might be the combinations of these factors that cause the long-term colour change, but those factors itself can cause the short-term colour-changes like for some minutes or hours. And sorry if this got a bit repeating, I know these are pretty much the same things you have observed, but these are some thoughts. And btw: as a side note I have only kept B.bombina from Bombinas.

-Mikko


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, when I moved my bombinas to my cooler office from my warm home, i saw that both began regaining their bright green color. It could be a temperature change factor. But nothing is consistant. They both still turn dark colors at times.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

what temp are your bombina at? I noticed that Roger was brilliant green at about 70-73 degrees, but the humidity was higher. Since we turned on the furnace, the temp has risen about two degrees, but still nice for bombina, but the humidity has plunged, so my frogs are behaving more nocturnally, thus, also darkening. I have a screen top, so I will probably have to cover my tank a bit as the evaporation of my 10 gallon is ridiculous.

However, frogs at Petco are kept about 76-80 degrees (i think), and are very, very green.

I am also wondering if it really could be dietary in the long run. Because even when Roger turned brilliant green, it still was a little bit duller than the actual green when I first bought them years ago (but still nice).

Is it me or you, but bombina at Petco are kept with virtually no water, but ours are? Also, don't they use UV bulbs over all their frog, lizard, and snake cages? A few rumors circulated at one time that they darken in presence of water, but that doesn't explain why Roger turned bright green in a matter of days as my tank is mostly water.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2005)

Yea their temps are at 70-73 becuase my coworker insists on putting on the ac all the time. But the humidity is always high becuase I have them with a glass top.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*Firebelly taods*

Maybe a defense technique?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2005)

Yesterday I moved my colony of 5 down to a 55 gal setup in my unheated basement. Temps in the tank are 60-62*F during the day...maybe 64* if heat builds up in there. 

Since the move, there are all a uniform light green color. Not a super light green (like one always is), but not the dark olive that a couple of them were in the warmer 20 gal I've had them in. They are spending next to no time at all in the water (I assume they prefer not to in the cold temps). I will update if colors start to change, but perhaps it IS a temperature thing? Most of the firebellies at the local Petco are a flat out brown color. I have read in some places that this is attributed to heat stress.

Here is a picture of the one that has always remained a nice, light green:










Here is a picture of one of the toads that has maintained a very dark olive (almost black) coloration, but after a day in the cooler enclosure:










The rest are all colored like this one.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2005)

I have two males in a ten gallon with 50% water. they have always stayed a bright green colour ever since I got them last year

heres a picture of one


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2005)

I think its begining to be obvious that lower temps lead to better color. Now that they are pumping heat into the building where my toads are, they have begun to change colors again more often. But how low is too low?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

outcold, what are your air and water temps for them? amount of light? whats on the land side? Pic of your set up would be great.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2005)

keroKero Pictures of the tank can be found in my Gallery
Im using two 13 watt compact fluorescent light bulbs the ones that you screw in. As for the temps the water is at 75* and the land is at 75*


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm starting to believe the cooler thing too, but I never believed it for a long time because Petco keeps their frogs pretty warm, or at least when I bought them.

however, when temps were at 70 degrees for a few days, the water got no higher than 72, Roger turned the most BRILLIANT green that I haven't seen since I brought him home from the petstore.

HOWEVER, the other frog did not turn bright green, but remained olive. However, a lighter olive. Perhaps this frog would also turn bright green if they stay at that temp long enough?

Now that the water is 76-80, they are mud again. :roll:

However, 64 degrees is quite nippy for toads during the day. I'd think they'd like it about 68 better.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2005)

64* if I'm lucky to get it that high! Like I said, more around a solid 62* most of the time. I was really hesitant about switching them down into the basement viv, but over on Caudata.org one member said this:

"I have kept Bombina orientalis in a chilled room for the last 8 years (the same toads). They have spontaneously spawned several times over the years. The winter temps in the enclosure are typically in the upper 50s and low 60s."

So, I figured I would give it a try. In the wild, it seems many of them actually go into full hibernation mode throughout the winter months, so I know it won't kill them. I'll see how they fair and update with anything noteworthy.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

moved :wink:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ask and you shall recieve...


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2006)

Man, what a classic thread.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

For the last week, my tank has been down to 72 degrees. BUT, the frogs are olive. However, the humidity is only 50-60%, because I've been using a screen top. BUT, my frogs are still more active at night, something I'm really starting to notice more of a correlation with. That would make sense, like Skyldale said because the frogs that hid more in the shadows were darker. Perhaps its also based on personality? Shier frogs tend to be darker? 

Khamul, is your tank mostly water or land? I have additionally heard rumors that toads tend to darken the longer they spend in water, but the last time Roger turned bright green he was mostly in the water...but he was very active during the day at that time.

What is the humidity level in your tank? Obviously, my humidity is pretty low. It would make sense why the frogs are hiding either in crevices in the water or underneath the cocohut during the day, only to become more active at night.

Sky, about your frog that has always been light green, what behavior does it express? Is it more dominant or more active? Does it spend more time on land or water? If you could observe its behavior for a few days and compare it to the others, that'd be appreciated (some "field work" lol)


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2006)

Hey,

my frogs are in an 80% land tank. I didnt know what I was doing when I built it. Its got a glass top and so the humidity levels are above 80%. Plus they sit in only about 4 inches of water. Nothing they can really dive into.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Today, I temporarily covered the tank with some plexiglass and misted it, and then both frogs came out of the hiding spots and ran all over the tank. For a brief moment, Chris started to turn a lighter color, but still not bright green. (probably not enough time) What kind of lighting do you have? I'm using a 19 watt CF screw in from HD.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2006)

two 30 watt florecents. Or is it 15 watt? Whats the standard wattage? I can't find out right now since they are in my office at work. Wont see them till Monday.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2006)

Hey Rain-Frog, the one that always stayed a lighter green rarely every got in the water. The one that soaked the most was a darker coloration. 

However, since my last post I moved them into a tank out at my office to free up the space at home for some tricolors I'm getting. The temps were warmer, even more than they ever have been with 2x13w PC's over the tank. All three of them turned very dark, and one went really brown and muddy looking. They still vary a bit, but overall they've gotten much darker with the warmer temps (although I'm not sure of specific temperatures as I haven't measured). In this new tank they spend much more time in the water, though, whereas in the cooler one they wouldn't be in it all that much.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ok, here are some ideas...

Bombina orientalis will be green, if and only if

-good lighting
-cool temps
-mostly land
-high humidity
-more diurnal

It somewhat makes sense if the frogs are bright green on land and dark in the water. Chances are in the water, they will blend in with the mud/gravel/ etc. However, i believe i've seen a ton of tanks with mostly water that the frogs are green...but that could explain why petco frogs are BRILLIANT green (or at least the ones here) and the temp is fairly warmer...there is only a soaking water dish and the rest is soil. 

Definitely, the cooler temps and high humidity trigger green somehow. I witnessed that even for a brief moment because my frogs got very active with just a slight misting and lightening of the color. Generally, if the humidity is low in the day or the temp is high, i won't see them until night fall.


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