# Harlequin PDFs?



## hypostatic

So I did a google image search for harlequin PDFs, and i found this guy:








Absolutely stunning picture


I also found this fellow:










Are they both the same species?


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## hypostatic

Here is a video of the same type as the first frog:


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## Mitch

Those are Histo's, or Dendrobates histrionicus.


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## sbreland

All histos, all VERY expensive, and all VERY rare in the hobby (and many rare in the wild as well).


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## epiphytes etc.

Mitch said:


> Those are Histo's, or Dendrobates histrionicus.


Dendrobates, huh?


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## frogparty

Oophaga histrionicus


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## Mitch

epiphytes etc. said:


> Dendrobates, huh?


Whoops... oophaga  I was going off the video title.


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## JeremyHuff

Mitch said:


> Whoops... oophaga  I was going off the video title.


Don't you mean Ooph! lol


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## Taron

Harlequin = varied color or decoration

This is the common name for oophaga histrionicus which oophaga sylvatica broke off from.

Harlequin dart definitely describes them well as they are by far the sweetest species in the hobby.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## DJboston

I love that first picture. I have a statue I'm finishing prototype for tonight entitled "oophaga." This first one is two frogs on a log. A blue jean pumilio and a histo, probably bulls eye red or maybe this one on top. I'm going to eventually release all the frogs in the genus as a two frog statue for the oophaga side project...Also, I want to do a few different special edition morph combos. Blue jeans was a no brainer as nothing screams pumilio or dart frogs like it....but for histo, it's been tricky trying to figure out which color morph to go with it. Something that contrasts well with the blue jeans.


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## Ed

Don't forget that Dendrobates is still going to be the listed name in all of the older literature... 

Ed


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## hypostatic

So i did a little more research which landed me on the IUCN Species Program (International Union for Conservation of Nature) web site, and I came upon a similar frog:









This is _Oophaga lehmanni_, Lehmann's Poison Frog. Both frogs are from the same region, but Lehmann's frog is considered critically endangered. Also, Lötters (1992b) doubted the distinction of this species from Oophaga histrionica, according to the IUCN website.

So are they both the same species?


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## hypostatic

Here are their overlapping habitats, according to IUCN:

_lehmanni_










_
histrionica_


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## ChrisK

Closely related different species


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## Baltimore Bryan

Yes like Chris said different species, but there is apparently a frog called the Anchicaya which is a naturally occurring hybrid between lehmanni and histrionica. I got some pictures of them from the Cali Zoo in Colombia and made a thread with the pics in the Lounge section here if you want to see: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/66207-anyone-been-cali-zoo-colombia.html
Bryan


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## hypostatic

Oh here's a bit more info on the subject from AmphibiaWeb:

Dendrobates lehmanni can breed successfully with D. histrionicus in captivity. Other than its lack of histrionicotoxins, D. lehmanni does not vary from D. histrionicus and so its status as a distinct species has often been questioned (Walls 1994). 

http://amphibiaweb.org/cgi/amphib_query?where-genus=Dendrobates&where-species=lehmanni


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## skylsdale

Also, it's_ Oophaga histrionic*a. *_If the genus moniker is feminine then the species follows suit as well.


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## JimO

So those are histos rather than lehmanni?

Edit - Sorry, I didn't see the second page before responding. Either way, the orange and black banded are one of my favorites of all darts.


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## ChrisK

Well I still like to consider Sylvaticus to be Histrionicus, but always felt Lehmanni isn't Histrionicus, never was, and the different toxins kind of confirms it


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## skylsdale

It's also _Oophaga sylvatic*a*_.


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## ChrisK

I'm still old school


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## JimO

I'm just old...



ChrisK said:


> I'm still old school


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## skylsdale

Feminine/masculine tenses are based on centuries-old rules of Latin grammar...not recent taxonomic changes.


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## ChrisK

I know but in my mind they're still Dendrobates pumilio, Dendrobates histrionicus......


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## DJboston

Dendrobates Azureus lol Anyone else having trouble just calling Azureus another tinc morph? Azureus is common in the hobby now but was once thought of as a precious rare jewel of a frog. Not saying tincs aren't gorgeous...it's just hard to think of it as a tinc morph to be mixed in with the others.


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## skylsdale

DJboston said:


> Azureus is common in the hobby now but was once thought of as a precious rare jewel of a frog.


_Perceived_ as being common. Some believe it is at risk of being one of those frogs that perhaps falls through the cracks of the hobby because of such perceptions.


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## DJboston

Oh really? The perception is actually pretty damn strong. It's funny because you see all rookies going for thumbnails because it's the cool thing to do. How can someone ignore a big bright blue frog as their first. Only reason I couldn't own them as my first was because they were too expensive at the time.

I have a breeding pair of Azureus that's producing great for me. My male is very fine spot and the female normal. Got them as a pair and obviously can tell they're very very unrelated bloodlines. I'll always have a pair of azureus in my collection. Holding back offspring as well.

A few breeders still put a lot of work into azureus no matter how cheap people sell them for some times. Especially like Patrick selling awesome sexed pairs. 

The bloodlines are still there of course, do you just mean the breeding populations? I can't imagine never seeing azureus in the hobby as that would be a sad sad day and says a lot about the human psyche. A gorgeous bright blue frog is now considered run of the mill...are you kidding me? lol Sad. I know certain frogs demand certain prices but that's just market value to me and the inherent value of the frogs themselves is totally different. 

I once read someone say that histos had some sort of mythical sort of trait about the way they behave. I just think that's BS and if roles were reversed with azureus, people would say that about azureus. 

If you have a min, let me know any more info on azureus dwindling because of the way people perceive it. Don't need proof or anything, just curious lol

Thanks dude
D


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## Tony

DJboston said:


> If you have a min, let me know any more info on azureus dwindling because of the way people perceive it. Don't need proof or anything, just curious lol


I believe he is referring to popularity trends leading to the loss of bloodlines during downswings in popularity, much like what has happened in the past with _E. tricolor_ and a number of others. I'm with you, there will always be room for azureus in my collection along with a few other "boring and common" frogs like red eyes.


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## DJboston

I hear ya. Red eyed tree frogs are so boring....oh nevermind, I forgot they're one of the most gorgeous frogs in existence and the symbol of the rain forest lol When their eyes open to bright red I still love it. I was just going by if they're in style or not lol

Yup it's happened with so many other dart frogs. What happened to newbies buying 4 Auratus froglets to start. They're glowing metallic green frogs with the right bloodlines. They're gorgeous and a lot more fun to a newbie than a thumbnail is. They just don't realize it. I love thumbnails but back in the day, they were too small to be popular. Now they seem to be more popular than the big colorful frogs. Tri-color is a good example. Now it seems back. Though I remember it being cheaper than auratus to find froglets.

Hard to track trends and fads but I say just keep what you like. I'm making sure that if I love a frog and think that popularity dwindling may knock it off, I'll try and breed a bloodline just to help it along when it does become wanted again.

Sad stuff. Sadder stuff in the world than frog stuff of course and I have bigger stuff going on in my life. But still, I hate seeing the hobby move in waves like this. Unavoidable maybe.


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## Ed

DJboston said:


> The bloodlines are still there of course, do you just mean the breeding populations? I can't imagine never seeing azureus in the hobby as that would be a sad sad day and says a lot about the human psyche.
> Thanks dude


Actually there was a recent thread on this as the nominate coloration has become very uncommon in the US... 
see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-when-azureus-wher-alot-more-deep-purple.html 

This is a good indication that the original bloodline are not still here and that the captive population is at risk... 

Ed


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## DJboston

Honestly, I think the coloration thing is partly all mental. My azureus are just as deep and bright blue as any pictures. I'm not disputing that there could be a dwindling captive population of azureus...but I think the perception of them being more common actually psychologically makes people think they don't look as good as they used to. This is classic psychology. 

I'm not saying there aren't weaker bloodlines, but it's still pretty easy to snag a really gorgeous bloodline. 

Can someone show me a weaker looking adult azureus that isn't a retired breeder? Something around a year old under good lighting?

I know that thread and how people were wondering where the purple azureus went...I started in the hobby in the 90s and I don't remember ever seeing purple azureus.


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## Tony

I remember seeing azureus at an aquarium in the early 90s and they were a deep blue color with big black spots. Hobby azureus now seem to be mostly sky blue and fine-spotted, though I have seen a few really nice old school pairs listed on Patrick's site.

Classic azureus from saurian.net:









My pair:


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## DJboston

By the way, I think I understand that everyone is referring to people having a liking towards sky blue azureus these days rather than the deep blue. My pair is deep blue and the offspring are deep blue. Dark blue looks great though can look too dark under bad lighting. I do prefer the dart blue though I have plans to eventually grab some froglets from S. Stewart. I'm not a fan of line breeding with dart frogs but the no spot sky blue azureus he breeds are just gorgeous and it would be a cool frog to look at. At least line breeding isn't hybridization. I don't mind it as much as people do it with cobalt tincs to maximize the yellow head coloration.

Do you remember when it was REALLY difficult to find a cobalt tinc that had retained yellow coloration on top of head. Ed, I assume that's from carotiene?


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## DJboston

Tony, your pair is gorgeous and just a lighter baby blue bloodline so I don't understand why people call that washed out. They've always existed, just more popular than the darker blue now. I remember around 10 years ago Saurian.net had sky blue azureus as well as darker blue.


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## JimO

All my azureus are from Patrick and I got this sexed pair (first photo) from him 4 years ago. They are actually a bit darker than they appear in the photo. I have another pair that includes a female from this pair (she's darker than her parents) and another male that I bought from Patrick a year ago. He's a bit lighter with finer spots (second photo). You can see the female in the second photo in the back corner. She wasn't quite full grown in that picture, which was taken six months ago. I'm hoping for eggs soon.


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## Ed

DJboston said:


> Tony, your pair is gorgeous and just a lighter baby blue bloodline so I don't understand why people call that washed out. They've always existed, just more popular than the darker blue now. I remember around 10 years ago Saurian.net had sky blue azureus as well as darker blue.


The light blues existed as a small proportion of the offspring that were produced from the darker adults. These offspring turned out to be very popular even back in the early to mid 90s so it resulted in selectively line breeding (from the intial breedings in the hobby) resulting in a decrease in the proportion of the darker animals that make up the population. This means that genetic diversity has been changed/lost and this is what is going to threaten the population. 

As a result, I'm not sure we can truley claim that the "original bloodlines" are still present as there are very few of the predominately dark animals left so the genetic diversity is no longer present. This was one of the main reasons NAIB and several other institutions went and recollected azureus which have since been maintained through a studbook program.


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