# Wall hanging tank build.



## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

So not to tease too much, but I'm picking up a pair of the most unusual tanks on Monday, they will be home to some thumbnails once completed. 

Here are some teaser pics 


























-Andrew


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## lookitsadam (Jul 1, 2013)

You have my interest. What are the dimensions of that tank?


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## Amphinityfrogs (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm interested. Are you planning on making a background in that tank? Keep us updated.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

the tank looks like it has a depth of maby some inch?


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

It is. 

Size 84" Long (7Ft) X 18"tall X 5"Wide and a second one he has is six inches deep. 

I'm likely doing a very thin open cell foam covered with either a cotton fabric, burlap, or a synthetic covering. Then do vining plants , small orchids, mosses, and broms. 

I have my own line of aquarium scissors and forceps so maintenance shouldn't be an issue. Planting will be interesting, I may make it in seven one foot panels on acrylic backing so they can be more easily removed for detailed maintenance work. Still figuring it all out obviously, but the idea is to set it all up, then not touch it besides feeding. 

I'm going to likely be short on broms, and this will be a show tank, so I'm going to have a local glass blower make me artificial ones, maybe just film canister type tubes, but I kinda want to try to get some bromeliad type glass made eventually. With the section holding water clear, so development can be easily observed compared to more traditional solutions. 

-Andrew


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## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

this is pretty cool, following


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Years ago, I wanted to experiment with very large vivariums. Yet I was in middle school and high school so money and space were constraints. I ended up doing high tech planted aquariums. Now that I have my own place and lots of space, my experimentation can begin. 

I've debated buying old glass sliding doors to make into large flat vivariums, and this opportunity presented itself so I figured it would be a good start. 

If I do not hang it, I'll likely make a floating bookshelf and take the plastic frame off and reframe it with glass so it's more minimalist. 

My thought is that a large surface area with this type of frog, may result in better health and breeding because more microfauna can exist and the viv will be more self sustaining than a typical 10g vert. 

Granted, I may be completely and utterly wrong . 
-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Also, ideally I'd prefer a depth of one foot, but these are obviously already built and locally available


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Does anyone else besides me have concerns about keeping frogs in a tank this narrow?

Also, are you planning on orienting it vertically if you're keeping thumbnails? How are you going to ventilate it?


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Dev30ils said:


> Does anyone else besides me have concerns about keeping frogs in a tank this narrow?
> 
> 
> 
> Also, are you planning on orienting it vertically if you're keeping thumbnails? How are you going to ventilate it?



It will be horizontal. 

I'm going to have air ducts with forced air, similar to a canister filter in an aquarium, I'll have an external box with an air filter, and humidifier, and fogger, that will pump air through tubes going into the viv, along with tubes drawing air out if that makes sense, similar to central air in a home. 

For frogs that reach 15mm I'm not concerned with the footprint. I have considered making it vertical though. 

-Andrew

-Andrew


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

I sorry to say this but these aquariums are garbage imo.Fish do not do too well in them-hardly any surface area for gas /oxygen exchange,and kind of cruel to do to the fish.At 5 inches wide,you will have a hard time growing even the smallest bromeliads,and most plants-maybe some shingling types would work.To me,it would like you or I living in a phone booth-not such a great life for the frogs! I would think that you would have less microfauna with less surface area also! not more.These aquariums strike many people as aweome,just like the stupid coffee table aquariums,but they are not really that functional.I own and operate an aquarium maint.business,and absolutely refuse to set these up or maintain them for anyone! I am sure that you will try anyway to keep pdf's in there anyway,but please reconsider,and maybe just do the plants! Good luck!
Ron


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

a hill said:


> I'm going to have air ducts with forced air, similar to a canister filter in an aquarium, I'll have an external box with an air filter, and humidifier, and fogger, that will pump air through tubes going into the viv, along with tubes drawing air out if that makes sense, similar to central air in a home.


Isn't this essentially a closed system? I'm not sure how that's going to provide ventilation, i.e. _reduce humidity_. Without actually having an AC unit in a central air system all you would be doing is moving around humid, stale air. 

Adding extra humidity via a humidifier and fogger is certainly not going to help the situation either. You should have no trouble keeping up humidity in a planted tank of that size with normal misting.

I would be extremely concerned about accidentally turning that tank into an oven for tiny frogs, especially if they have no way to cool themselves via evaporative cooling.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ron, I've been in the same business for eight years, and if I were to set it up as An aquarium I would do it as a fw shrimp tank, same concept, just a moss wall of fissidens fontanous or Taiwan moss. 

Gas exchange is simple to account for with proper water circulation and filtration, same with air. It just has to do with proper planning. As someone with your experience, this should be obvious. 

As already said, I plan to mostly do vining plants. Possibly small well trimmed broms, but will likely have glass broms made for me to account for this. 

That said, I also have a large cube tank in the works, larger than most American tele booths, so I do understand. 

Surface area I'm referencing is the background, not the footprint. 

I'm still considering making them 1 foot deep by either buying glass sliding doors and making my own, or modifying these existing tanks. 

Considering many people keep these frogs in 10g verts, I'm not sure how a comparison to a phone booth is valid, I'm not adding goldfish and RTFs. 

-Andrew

Sorry, a bit of a fragmented reply.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Dev30ils said:


> Isn't this essentially a closed system? I'm not sure how that's going to provide ventilation, i.e. _reduce humidity_. Without actually having an AC unit in a central air system all you would be doing is moving around humid, stale air.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, haha, I'll have ventilation as well so that the air doesn't become stale. It is just that it will be all managed from an external source. In my condo in AZ it is generally almost no humidity so I'm concerned about that more so than anything. I'm also likely going to try these out to filter the air, to make it impossible for it to be stale recirculating air. 

http://www.amazon.com/X6675-Lennox-20x25x5-Filter-HCC20-28/dp/B000PY2EZA/ref=lp_13399891_1_13?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1407444783&sr=1-13

A bit overkill for this tank, but in my 4x4x8 it won't be. 

So yes, I'll be able to monitor and manipulate the humidity easily, without opening the actual enclosure by opening different vents on the external box. 

I'll have cleaner air in this viv than in my home. 

-Andrew


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Please don't put frogs in this. You are making me depressed. Way too small of an area at 5". What's next PDF style hamster tubes?

They would make some interesting plant only terrariums or an ant colony, but frogs? Just don't do it.


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## wak4863 (Jul 26, 2012)

You have my attention! Not sure on putting frogs in it but I'm not going to tell you what to do with it. It is a very cool concept. Can't wait to see how it comes along.


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## Coqui (Jan 17, 2013)

Years ago, I had a 3feet long by 2feet high by 4 inches wide acrylic or plexiglass tank. I turned that into a reef tank. Some live branch rocks, softies, a goby and shrimp. Had that tank running for over two years when I decided to go larger. Went with a 125 gallon glass tank then at the end went down to a 46 gallon bow. 
However, I do feel that 5 inch is just to narrow for frogs. Is it impossible NO. Are frogs going to be comfortable, maybe not. 
Good luck.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Is that 5 inches external or internal depth? If external, now we're probably talking closer to 4 inches on the inside. 

I personally wouldn't put a frog in there. If you're insisting on it however, I think a group would be a really bad idea. Any aggression (which can be very subtle) would be difficult for a frog to escape. 

If some dude is giving me trouble in a bar, I might feel a little uneasy with both of us in the same room. I would feel especially uneasy if we existed together in a hallway- all the time.


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

Can't say I am a big fan of the idea of using this tank to keep frogs.


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

In all honesty a 10 gallon vert is a 10x12" foot print. Add a background and you have something like a a 10x10" or even less. With the 6" depth one I don't see huge problem, if there is a SUPER thin (like a coat of silicone and coco fiber), background. I guess it's not ideal, maybe, but we're talking ~500 square inches of foot print vs 120" of the 10 gallon vert (not accounting for any backgrounds). I guess I would need to see it finished first to make a final judgement, but might be worth a try. At worst, it'll make a very nice planted display tank. 

Just my opinion and its worth exactly what everyone here paid for it.


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## tyler (Feb 23, 2006)

unusual indeed


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## VisionVoid (Nov 20, 2005)

boogsawaste said:


> we're talking ~500 square inches of foot print vs 120" of the 10 gallon vert (not accounting for any backgrounds).


The math totally makes sense but there's just something about only five inches or less between background and front glass that seems uncomfortable. But then again I'm not a tiny frog.


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

Suitability for frogs aside, I think this tank could be spectacular if done right, I'm really looking forward to this

A small Philodendron, some shinglers, a couple of trailing ferns like Microgramma and Pleopeltis, some small Pleurothallids and perhaps the unknown Machu picchu fern that's going around. 
It'll be GLORIOUS!

Hmm, I wonder how much glass I have laying around...now I want one


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

VisionVoid said:


> The math totally makes sense but there's just something about only five inches or less between background and front glass that seems uncomfortable. But then again I'm not a tiny frog.


I agree. I'm not sure how it will work myself. Just figured I would throw some numbers up there.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

I don't see it as a particular problem as long as you use a community thumb that likes to climb vs hang out on the ground all the time, as far as venting goes that would be uber easy with computer fans on each end, one blowing in and one opposite side exhausting. I have 4 vittatus in an18x18x24 exo and regularly see all four chilling together but they rarely climb higher than 10" off the floor, cant see why Epipedobates anthonyi 'Santa Isabel' wouldn't work, especially with heavy broms but another thing would be light dispersal, the bottom of that tank is going to be awfully dark once the vines top out unless maybe you mount directional lighting in front somewhere and than you might have a weird reflection from that too, experiment and see what works, maybe a couple of tree frogs would be the way to go


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

So life got busy with my renovating and car restoration projects so I let you all have fun while I was busy. . A few final points, and then an update on what I plan to do. 

Area: As a few pointed out, the tank would have at least 5-10 times the area for territorial disputes than most of the tanks everyone who has responded here owns. (No I didn't look up who has what, so this is a generalization.) 

Volume: I actually spend a fair amount of time at bars and clubs in Arizona, domestically, and globally while traveling and the analogy is poor. Some hole in the wall bars are set up like hallways, and if a guy/gall is bothering you, then either leave or move down the bar farther away, or you know, kill the person. Others have a large floor, so you have room to move like a queen on a chessboard. Lastly the best clubs in the world I've been to have vertical space as well. The "poor folk" get to walk in and cram in the bottom, then there are slightly elevated bottle service tables, then usually booths slightly higher up (a few steps) with couches for bigger spenders. Then you get entry to the VIP balcony if you drop 10x the amount of the bottle booths, or if you know he right person. Some clubs then have a VIP club on he second or third floor with a guarded guest list only staircase and elevator with more vertical stratification of booths inside that. Basically, the more valuable you are the higher you are in the establishment, literally. 

So for a tinc, sure this tank would be dreadful to get stuck in. For a thumb? There is room for super VIPs and common froglets too. 

Air: fans, venting as said, simple stuff, super easy. If you ever have trouble with that, pm me I'll help you figure it out. 

Lighting: these were just taken at 5pm. I'm in Phoenix AZ. Glass door faces south. 











Telephone booths: google micro dwellings. 

Ok so here's the update. 


I want to be clear in the fact that the replies here have not significantly influenced my stance, but running numbers I've decided I'm not purchasing the tank and am going to have a custom built acrylic one made since I'm already ordering acrylic to build the large cube 3x3x6ish feet I think I've decided volume on. The wall hanging acrylic if I do 4 foot or even 8 foot long by 4 foot high is only a bit more than buying the glass tank. It is also significantly lighter weight. The kicker is that depth (front pane to back pane) doesn't affect price, since it'll it'll just be made from the scrap cuts. I'm marking my floor for both 12 inch and 18 inch depth since in doing so I can grow large broms and not bother with getting blown glass broms.

This is he wall, the door is leaning against an 18 inch exoterra and the cube in front is 8inches. 


























For context regarding light. I'm standing at wall facing SW. 









Lastly, the large cube in wall, will be here 









Place is a bit messy, yet hopefully that gives some better idea as to what I'm working with. I'm also debating making the picture tank a series of verts so it is more like a rack for multiple thumbnail species opposed to just one. Especially if I make it 12 to 18 inches deep. 

Projected timeline on these projects before plants exist is 3-6 months. I should be purchasing the acrylic and getting the electrical and plumbing and stands for this started within the month. I need to finish painting and have the floors finished. Then I'll be making custom furniture and stands with redwood. 

Miles to go before I sleep...

-Andrew


Figure I'll get a car question or two, my daily and project and money pit is a 1987 Porsche 928s4. 117k miles, clean interior and 75% original exterior paint. 










































Yes, it's that car.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

andersonii85 said:


> Please don't put frogs in this. You are making me depressed. Way too small of an area at 5". What's next PDF style hamster tubes?
> 
> They would make some interesting plant only terrariums or an ant colony, but frogs? Just don't do it.


On this original subject. Frogs that live in trees or on plants probably experience a very limited habitat. Say you are living in trees on bromeliads. Its not unreasonable to imagine a 5 inch space that is very long and narrow with a small bromeliad colony. 

The bigger problem is the practical considerations. Adding just a couple inches front to back would have allowed hands to slide in and room for a background. Also I considered doing something like this but the whole time I was sure it would be way better to have sliding glass front doors. For frogs that do not require a tank full of water it would make so much more sense and solves almost all the problems with servicing the system. The only other issue was with such a small space condensation would be difficult to fight as you couldn't pull the moisture to another part unless you put coolers in the back wall.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Pubfiction: excuse the ugly website at the moment, but this is one of my businesses. Www.rumfordaquatics.com. You will understand why I wasn't worries about the constraints. 

(Not trying to self promote, but if anything looks interesting shoot me a pm I can at least do free shipping to forum people) 

-Andrew


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> On this original subject. Frogs that live in trees or on plants probably experience a very limited habitat. Say you are living in trees on bromeliads. Its not unreasonable to imagine a 5 inch space that is very long and narrow with a small bromeliad colony.




I think you are forgetting about factors outside of reproduction and refugia. Foraging (among other factors) for tree dwelling species can occur on the ground. Why else would one put leaf litter in an imitator viv? 

Some interesting reading on spatial use in two species. Pay close attention to the variabilis data. 

http://www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/PDFs/Brown_etal_GIS_2009.pdf


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

andersonii85 said:


> I think you are forgetting about factors outside of reproduction and refugia. Foraging (among other factors) for tree dwelling species can occur on the ground. Why else would one put leaf litter in an imitator viv?
> 
> Some interesting reading on spatial use in two species. Pay close attention to the variabilis data.
> 
> http://www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/PDFs/Brown_etal_GIS_2009.pdf



Leaf litter in viva in the overwhelming majority of vivaria is aesthetic purpose based and to reduce maintenance a little bit. The amount of dusted and supplemental flies really makes microfauna in leaf litter in small tanks of minor importance. There is just too little of an amount consumed. 

Why else? Aesthetics. 

-Andrew

Ps. If you are playing with vivvs the size of their study plots, sure, but very few people are.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

a hill said:


> Leaf litter in viva in the overwhelming majority of vivaria is aesthetic purpose based and to reduce maintenance a little bit. The amount of dusted and supplemental flies really makes microfauna in leaf litter in small tanks of minor importance. There is just too little of an amount consumed.
> 
> Why else? Aesthetics.
> 
> ...


You've seen where the majority of these frogs come from right? Have you read any of their official species descriptions? 

Leaf litter is used by dendrobatids for a plethora of reasons including foraging, hiding places, and egg laying. Even thumbnails and pumilios utilize leaf litter for egg laying purposes. 

The fact is, if you are trying at all to create a naturalistic habitat for your frogs you need to include leaf litter. The more they have, the more comfortable they will be in their tank.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Yes, in fact I have. 

I'm trying to point out that it is a choice to use LL not a requirement. In captivity they can just as easily be well kept on riccia lawns and fed ff every day. Unless the viv is substantially large and the ratio of frog to microfauna a space is very low, the perceived vs real benefit for the majority of hobbyists is in my reading, debatable. 

I am personally obsessed with creating composting, bioavailable, living substrate with the goal of not requiring supplemental feeding to be dusted in vitamins. That is why my other projects include a cube with large footprint, and several live cultures of experimental hands off composting substrate. 

That said, I'm talking about 1sqft of floor space per frog of so minimum to attempt a mostly hands off viv, nor am I actively recommending this to others. Obviously, I will be supplementally feeding the frogs until I get the mix right, and even then, since it's so easy, I'll still feed dusted supplemental flies.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

a hill said:


> Leaf litter in viva in the overwhelming majority of vivaria is aesthetic purpose based and to reduce maintenance a little bit. The amount of dusted and supplemental flies really makes microfauna in leaf litter in small tanks of minor importance. There is just too little of an amount consumed.
> 
> Why else? Aesthetics.
> 
> ...



I think you have misconstrued my argument. It wasn't pointed at you but pubfiction. The argument was that they don't use much space. I disagreed. I'm glad you have decided to go with better dimensions for this project regardless of my input. I'm merely an advocate for the animals. 

At any rate, I know of many keepers that use leaf litter in ten gallon verts with great success due to the frogs needs - egg deposition, hiding, osmoregulation, forage, etc... And not aesthetics. You don't need a large Viv to pull this off. One just needs to design the space taking into account how the frog will use it. 

Often times we need to step back and think about what's best for the frogs and not for our own amusement or for the sake of making the next "cool" thing for everyone to copy.


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## GBR (Jun 7, 2013)

Excited to see what this turns out to be!


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Oh, d'oh, I'm kinda thick at times. So we completely agree. Although in artificial conditions things can be modified without significantly compromising the health and life of the frogs (although, this is hard to measure to some degree and can be quite the debate overall) I love leaf litter, I got it popular in the fw planted tank community in the US years ago copying things from the community here. Deciding to go custom really allows me to do things properly, unfortunately, I can't just seal off my condo to make a larger viv!

Doubt we need to worry about anyone copying this. I'd love to see larger vivs though. 

GBR, me too, it'll be interesting for sure. 

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

I'll be mocking up everything with AutoCAD later today. 

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

So I'm finishing the design of the tanks, I'll probably share the really basic design here before they're made. The exact design however with all the nice details will just have to wait till they're sitting on the wall.

There will be four tanks, all identical next to eachother. Each tank will be a two by two foot base, with a modified euroviv floor closer to a false bottom, still figuring that out. There will be a clay substrate, followed by an ABG type mix, followed by Fiddle Head Fig leaf litter. The clay in the substrate will likely be an aquarium substrate called "ADA Aquasoil" and the substrate will slope foreward to create a small pond in the front similar to a euroviv, except in these there will be a bulkhead in the rear to drain excess water.

Each background will be eight square feet, two feet across and four feet tall. The background, as of now, will be an open cell foam, covered in bromeliads, moss, pothos, orchids and shinglers. It may have a drip wall, but probably not. 

There will be forced air, coming from a central air unit that will help regulate humidity, and air quality with filtration and UV sanitization. Clear PVC pipe and tubing will be used to create air ducts that will be powered with individual computer fans. 

Mist King, they'll be receiving an order...

The lids will have ventilation. and likely the front pane will as well with lazer cut holes at the top. Because I want one clear whole front pane, I will be using forced air to take care of the airflow that will be lacking without the normal vents.

Lighting will be ambient to start and T8, may at some point do LED spotlighting.

They'll all be plumbed to drain into a central sump then the water will be discarded, either via a drain, or used for houseplants. 

These will sit upon a redwood stand that is 2 by 8 feet long and approx 3 feet tall. This will go behind a couch so will mostly be unseen. There will be a lip around the tanks to help keep them from bowing hopefully.

So yeah, Four tanks, all identical, all 2x2x4. 

So much for a little 40g pancake tank. When I decided to go custom it really really took the lid off the box.

Inhabitants are still up in the mix. I figure there will be some R. something, Pumilios, and maybe some day geckos mixed in. I'll see how the frogs use the space, and if they don't use the bottom too much I may have two species per tank, such as a tinc and a thumb. Yet, probably not, we shall see how these things turn out. 

I'm also going to be making a tadpole and egg setup, with acrylic and central sump and plumbing. That said, with these tanks I will likely be letting the parents raise the tads because there will be dozens of bromeliads per tank. 

Can anyone think of any frogs that are rarer in the hobby that would likely do well in these large enclosures? I figure these will be a bit unusual and I may be able to help make some frogs a bit more common. I'm thinking highlands and some more uncommon pumilios. Opinions?

-Andrew

-


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## Lpst (Aug 2, 2014)

Andinobates fulguritus, if you can obtain them, awesome looking frogs, i don't think I've seen them in the hobby yet, but there could be a reason for this?


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I think its capable of working, but if it doesnt I would say stay with something a little cheaper and more common. Maybe vents or chazutas or something, but pumilio most likely will not thrive in there without some larger broms and your tank is too narrow for most broms.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

reptiles12 said:


> I think its capable of working, but if it doesnt I would say stay with something a little cheaper and more common. Maybe vents or chazutas or something, but pumilio most likely will not thrive in there without some larger broms and your tank is too narrow for most broms.



Please read my latest post.

Let me know afterwards. I think I'll be spending around $200-$500 on broms. 

Numbers are fluid at the moment, I'm not sure exactly how much I'll actually spend on plants. It might get pricey. Depends on the coat of the big boxes. 

I'm hoping to get the redwood lumber by Wednesday I make my furniture. 

I'm not sure if I wrote this already, but I've decided to withhold the technical details of the tanks, I may be applying for some design patents around them. While I have no plans keep any fellow hobbyists from using my designs I've had issues in the past with major pet industry companies copying things I design. I'm also working on a design and patent portfolio for future consulting and whatnot. 

So don't worry, I'm no us dart or warehouse or whatever they're calling themselves. Heck, I'll help others replicate the design for no commercial use. 

-Andrew


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Another minor update. I had the measurements incorrect, there is ten feet of wall, so potentially, there will be five tanks not four once all completed. 

Walls are almost done, baseboards are pulled (to be replaced), estimate on floor has been received. 

Now for plumber and electrician, and estimates of that along with the acrylic boxes.

It's kinda getting real. Finally. 

Oh and these are some of the frogs that will sooner or later be calling one of the vivs home!


















I can't wait. I'll probably need some more unrelated frogs and or pairs in the fall to add to this group. So if you'll have any let me know. 

-Andrew


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

If I may, I'd like to throw out an observation about the air circulation: Why bother?

Whatever you put in the tank will like (need) humidity, and your local environment doesn't do a lot for that. A closed tank of water with an air-stone in it, vented into the tank, and a big enough pump will draw in ambient air, wash and saturate it, and provide great air for the rank. The stuff that's vented from the tank will go into your home environment, which is a plus for it, as well.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ray said:


> If I may, I'd like to throw out an observation about the air circulation: Why bother?
> 
> Whatever you put in the tank will like (need) humidity, and your local environment doesn't do a lot for that. A closed tank of water with an air-stone in it, vented into the tank, and a big enough pump will draw in ambient air, wash and saturate it, and provide great air for the rank. The stuff that's vented from the tank will go into your home environment, which is a plus for it, as well.


Mostly because I'm a control freak. In aquariums I keep track of water quality like crazy and figure it'll be interesting to see if keeping tabs on air quality can make a difference or not. It is completely over the top and unnecessary, but I want to try and be able to control every possibly variable. I'm also likely going to have the air pass through the filter containing UV bulbs to help remove other fun stuff. 

Lets say I'm keeping a frog that is a bit picky in breeding conditions. Not only can I modify misting, but air temp and humidity as well. It also is all hands off so the tank isn't disturbed. With this it is more possible to replicate seasonal shifts and storms, pressure systems to some degree as well but I don't plan to have these sealed well enough to influence the barometric pressures. 

That said, the tanks will be plumbed and vented for both air and water control. There will be no front facing vents, nor side vents so I want to guarantee I can control the humidity well enough. With enclosures this large, I should be able to try some weird things no one else bothers with.

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

In hopes of keeping track of things in the planning and development stages of this project here are some updates as to where I am.

I will be keeping track of pricing for those interested. 
I want to be clear that this is not a money making venture nor is it an odd way of saying look at me! I spend money and am better for it! Yet I think transparency is important in projects like these so that it is more accessible and understandable. Hopefully, encouraging others to try similar setups even if smaller. I also wish to try and keep track of pricing along the way. If this bothers you, please just skim over the sections were I debate costs and merits thereof. 

There is a hydroponics store across the street from me that I go to every once and a while, I stopped in today while doing some errands and talked to one of the guys who run the place. He suggested with the depth of the tanks (4 feet) Metal Halide lights would likely be ideal, although there are obvious drawbacks here such as heat, yet benefits such as cost and the ability to run forced air through them to keep things cooler and mitigate heat from lighting. Plus, I can also supplement with LED for fun effects. 

The whole setup, with him getting me some discounts, if I go with the most current models of what we were looking at would be approx $600 for the ballasts, bulbs, and hoods. An additional cost will be the duct work and fan(s) depending on how it is set up. 

An interesting potential benefit is that MH lights will produce more UV than other lights which could possibly aid in calcium levels in the frogs, although this is always debated. 

Lastly, with MH, I'd be using three pendants over the 10 foot area so there would be interesting shadowing and light levels would vary over the tanks so that different plants can be grown in different areas to some degree, and those red bromeliads will be happy with lots of light!

I'm not completely sold on having ductwork going up to the ceiling, and another option is a radiator with a chiller, but thats another $500 which I would rather spend on a misting system. Although if I was to do a swamp chiller under the tank it may work and I could potentially use the air to vent into the tanks as well at times when I am simulating a storm bringing in hot humid air off the coast during a tropical storm system.

So, Lighting, if I go this route, will be 3 MH units. Remote ballasts to help keep things cool. Will be on timers and all that fun stuff. Venting and forced air with a 6 inch fan, possibly two if I'm not happy enough with just one (although they are around $100, so one to start)

For misting I think I'll have to get the ultimate mist king system, but may attempt to skimp and get the mid level one. Either way, the mist king system will be used. Costs are still unknown for misting but once the tanks arrive misting will be figured out easier, I'm a bit of a visual hands on person for things like that. I'll likely buy some nozzles and see how I want to place them and then purchase the system. Although I should probably just buy the system as a package and get it done in one go!

The air filter and ductwork design will not be initially created when the tanks are installed. I will have the ductwork done but will not be starting with the elaborate plans. I want to focus on more important things initially. 

I am, at the moment although this is subject to change, planning to have my plants special ordered through homedepot via their supplier "the plant stand AZ" With this I can go to the nursery and figure out what I want, then get the 1 year guarantee on the plants and a lower price through HD's supply chain and contracts. I'm not sure I've read of anyone doing something this specific through HD so if I do go this route it will be interesting. Luckily the nursery they use is about 20 mins from my house, I plan to visit it tomorrow. 

Oh, and microfauna and substrate are slowly coming together. I kinda need an absurd amount!

I have yet to receive the price quote for the tanks, I'm really not looking forward to that number. Yet, it is important to start out right with this project so that is the most important aspect initially. I'm hoping they're under $500 a piece, and if they are too crazy priced I'll likely be making my own with the help of some friends who are regulars at the maker center in AZ.

Ok. Enough text. Floors hopefully will be taken care of this week and so the furniture can be made. Then the tanks will appear, lights will happen, misting solution will be finalized, substrate and backgrounds and hardscaping will be done! Then the live stuff will be added, flora first then fauna because at this point if it isn't october or so I'd be very surprised.

First planned group is varadero imis, I'm hoping to get a diverse group of approx 20+ by the end of December. I'll let the other 4 tanks mature and become established before adding frogs that are a bit rarer and expensive.

So I'll stop rambling at 3 am. I have miles to go before I sleep, but I have a nursery to meet, so I shall attempt sleep. Ah, and TAing dance classes tomorrow, maybe I'll add some photos of that to the thread to at least mix it up and have some photos!

-Andrew


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## dartboard (Jan 30, 2011)

Andrew,

I love this idea you are going with and I am glad that someone with the resources and attention to detail is the one doing it. I think it is going to turn out awesome.

There is going to be a whole lot more room in there for these frogs than the far far majority of peoples frogs in this hobby, I'm glad youre not letting the naysayers stop you from going through with this

I am subscribed and excited to see what comes of this. Good luck


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

It's been my plan to for years, I'm extremely fortunate to finally be able to go forward with this. I think large breeding populations are essential to maintain species into the future. Especially when they aren't as popular. 

So, here is a fun teaser picture from today! Update to follow shortly. Let's just say, I may start being able to supply plants when it cools off. 
















-Andrew


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## bruhmelioid (Jun 14, 2014)

Those are going to be some cool tanks! 
I'll be interested to see how the frogs spread out once established.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

So today, was a crazy crazy crazy day. It contained three shots of expresso, dance, and one cider. Usually it only is one expresso and maybe a cider. 

So the day started off fun. I visited a local tropical plant nursery! They were more than happy to show the place off and let me poke around looking at all of the plants they had in stock, which they told me was not many at the moment. Apparently in AZ the real season for them starts end of August and beginning of September. They get weekly orders by the truckload brought in from California and Florida so if I give them a plant list and enough lead time they can see what they can get for me. To top it off, the prices are nice and in the future if any of the plants are of interest I can supply you with some! Kinda cool I think, one of the benefits of being an entrepreneur.

After that I had to deal with insurance for a problem that I was not expecting. So this will hopefully not impart the progress of this project.

Oh, the concrete guys are coming tomorrow at 7, so I need to make sure the floor is cleared and cleaned and everything is ready for that. Then furniture can be made! 

You know someone is insane when he needs to redo the floors before building furniture, that is built around the viv.

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Sub-straight progress. 

-Andrew


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## Illustrator (Feb 4, 2011)

Hurry hurry!! 
Cant wait to see it running!


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Illustrator said:


> Hurry hurry!!
> 
> Cant wait to see it running!



See most journals only the frog enclosure is built. In this thread the frog and human enclosure is being built together. This said, after catching up with some friends while out on the town, I came home and did some stuff. 

















































So the floor still needs sealing. The frame for the stand will sanded and put together tomorrow. I'll also need to sand everything. 

Oh and I'll be making the frame for my couch and my floating tv running board or shelf thing. 

Slowly but surely it's coming together. Years of planning and research later. It's extremely rewarding. 

Oh, and I'm doing as much as possible by hand. I'm using an electric sander though since it'll allow better results. I also am using an electric drill since I don't have an extensive collection of antique tools as of yet. 

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Slowly looking like a stand. It's weird now that it's actually beginning to come together. These suckers are going to be huge!

Home Depot is my new home. I'm there at least once a day now. 

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

So here is a shot to give a sense if size. 









Can you guess what that is?

-Andrew


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## Lpst (Aug 2, 2014)

10gal?


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Lpst said:


> 10gal?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yup. 

Here are some frogs I grabbed from a local guy getting out of the hobby. Looks like a female leuc, a probable pair of black and blue auratus, and an unknown pumilio I'm suspecting male. Previous owner is digging through old records to see if he can find me morph locale etc. 

















































The temporary holding cubes. 









































These will likely not be housed in the planned vivs. They came with their own and I'm going to replant them tomorrow. 

Finally some frog pics though. 

-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Still waiting on the price for the cubes, but it'll be a six week lag time before they're delivered. 

This gives me plenty of time to begin my cultures for all types of fun bugs and to grow out some plants that won't be supplied via the tropical nursery. 

I also need to do some research on where to find manzanita wood in AZ. Also look into clay substrate and calcium regulation. I'm likely including UV spotlighting for potential regulation. 


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

One 110 qt steralite clear view latch box holds eight 6 qt boxes. These will be used to culture bugs. They'll keep everything contained and neat. Total cost is about $35. I figure this way if a few cultures crash it doesn't matter. I can fit about two of these under each stand and have room for other things as well, or just put them somewhere else like the guest bedroom. 

That said I need about ten cubic feet of live substrate, so I'll need some larger containers as well for that. 

I'm going to likely do a clay soil with six inches of living soil. Living soil meaning bug infested abg style mix. 

-Andrew


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

This is going to be crazy once its complete. I'm following it all the way!! 

John


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

FroggyKnight said:


> This is going to be crazy once its complete. I'm following it all the way!!
> 
> 
> 
> John



Well it'll be a long journey. Looks like it'll be two months at least till the cubes are made, then easily another month or more for support systems aka lighting & uv, air, water. Then I plan on making a slightly slanted background with metal frame of some sort (4 feet tall) and have the base be open cell foam. Possibly on top of that a mix of clay, ground charcoal, and peat. 

I'm now researching the ideal way to do the substrate, I think it'll be about three inches of clay substrate followed by about that much ABG style mix. Covered in leaf litter. 

I'm Trying to make the most diverse microfauna population possible, including the normal stuff, some worms used for aquarium food, and potentially other things that aren't found commonly in the hobby. 

The imitators are in quarantine, they're absolutely beautiful. Will probly be looking at getting around 10-20 more by February. 

Some updates, this won't go fast enough. Next week I'm making a lot of ABG style mix though so that'll be fun. 


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## brosta (Oct 25, 2011)

This looks like it is going to be pretty awesome! Can't wait to see how it comes together!


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

So, I'm still alive. Progress is being made. I'm ordering the acrylic cubes within the week hopefully. I bought the RODI filter, it's a 90 gallon per day 5 stage unit. 

I'll be mixing the substrate soon as well and letting it do its thing with bugs and whatnot. 

Progress has been been made in the furniture department as well as lighting. I'm going to buy the insane mist king system in two weeks probly. 

Some photos.

















-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Unfortunately the wall will have no tanks hanging on it and I'll just be setting up a rack instead in my guest bedroom. It'll be neat but not this neat. The wall can't support this much weight says the expert who came to help me figure things out. 

I'm hoping this thread can be closed, I'll open a new thread for the new project, but this one is a bit too cluttered and off of what I'm going to be doing. 

Thanks,
-Andrew


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Ok. Disregard the above post. Things have improved. 


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

I am a big fan of odd shaped tanks & looking forward to seeing the skinny tank set up!

I think long skinny tanks are better in some ways than the more square ones, critters can swim, hop or crawl in a straight line for a longer time than just going in circles. 

Jim


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