# Quarantine?



## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Hello all.
I know I have been posting threads lately and I thank all of those who have helped me. I have one last question before my Dendrobates Tinctorius azures arrives in the mail, and that is about a quarantine tank. Currently I have set up one of my own based on some of my own research. It’s a moving container probably about 15 gallons, with leaf litter, Pothos trimmings, and a water dish. My question is, will this do the job as a potentially 6 week quarantine tank before I add the frog to its permanent home


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Hopefully that was the right way to do it. My frog arrived today and I added him to his grow out/quarantine tank. He is a bit on the small side but not tiny, he also is energetic, bright, a bit thin, but I gave him some dusted flies which he ate up readily. Also thanks to all who helped me out. If you have suggestions on the tank pls let know.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

If you could post a pic of the frog and of the QT tub, folks could give suggestions. You have enough posts to attach a thumbnail pic now.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Here it is.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

If you need to see anything else to make suggestions let me know.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

gusgieg said:


> If you need to see anything else to make suggestions let me know.


I would suggest much more leaf litter, you ideally shouldn't see the substrate under the leaf litter. 

Just my thoughts, I'm still fairly new to dart frogs


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I like contained/changeable water modality in Q and H but I try to make it as easy in and out as possible. Simple gradient a plus. A sterilized stone at the edge is good husbandry architecture. 

Flush to floor of tup as irregularities in how container seats on matter can cause entrapment, injury or death. 

Water needs to be changed twice per 24 hr period, even if it looks "clear" and additional if stool, drown insects, are noted before change. 

Note that Joshes frogs sells worm feeder bowls, shallow, white receptacles that hold 30ml that are good for small water purpose. Wasabe dishes are also of a frequently useful dimension.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

It appears you have the resin rock bowl tipped. Thats good they collect bacterial plaque readily those bowls but can be good


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Yes, I do have bowl of water, just in case humidity drops for some reason. I change the water frequently, it is shallow, but I will add something to it so that nothing can drown, thanks.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Here’s a pic of him scaling the wall and just one of him normally.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A healthy guy can usually get himself in or out, but finessing the margin of demarcation between the "puddle" and terra is well, unchallenging to the frog and helps them assume more natural posture to hydrate.

Water in nature is rarely behind a little wall that goes all the way around it.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Ok, I’ll keep that in mind. 
Another thing is, how big should I let this guy get before putting him in his permanent home. The tanks is a 40 gal


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

*Why do the flies ignore my banana??*

Hm well only my opinion would be when you are uncomfortable seeing him in the q space you have him in it would be time to put him in. Half up to adult size aka big juvie/sub adult . Its often hard to wait with an active messy Q inhabitant.

You want him to avoid any dangerous Predicamento Minutia. It may be good to get him habituated to a feeding station presently. I recommend using a bright plastic beverage top with fruit in it and to use the same, w a few duplicates studded around the permanent 40.

If you use some kinds of fruit that have been treated or altered to be protected from insects systemically, fruit flies may not be drawn to it with the vivaciousness of 'the olden days' 

A few drops of vinegar on the fruit cures this, and seems to surpass the mild but noticable deterrent effect of some of our store bought fruit.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

That’s smart, I think I will try that. Thanks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

A water dish is entirely unnecessary. I've never had a water dish in with any of the many dart frogs I've raised, both terrestrial, and non. Well, obligates have their broms that collect water, but that's it.
My personal choice is not to use fruit baited feeding stations unless you have a skinny frog in trouble.
Using any amount of vinegar in a dart frog's home, would worry me. I would be worried about any vinegar getting on the frog's skin. That would make for a sharp and immediate pH drop down to about 2.4 wherever contact is made, depending on how low a pH your vinegar has. Frogs would immediately absorb that into their skin. 
That would concern me...a lot. Yes, it would be a small amount, but your frog will eventually come to that feeding station immediately, while the vinegar was fresh and undiluted.
Do I know for a fact that this could be bad? No, but I do know that lowered pH in tadpole water causes death, stunted growth, and deformation in tadpoles, and in the resulting froglets. I'll say it now before someone points it out, true, this would be brief contact, whereas the studies I've seen were long term. I submit that science indicates a possible potential for pH related harm. 
If you feel you have to have a feeding station, consider buying a single, organic apple. Cut it up and freeze it to be used a piece at a time as needed.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Pumilo said:


> A water dish is entirely unnecessary. I've never had a water dish in with any of the many dart frogs I've raised, both terrestrial, and non. Well, obligates have their broms that collect water, but that's it.
> My personal choice is not to use fruit baited feeding stations unless you have a skinny frog in trouble.
> Using any amount of vinegar in a dart frog's home, would worry me. I would be worried about any vinegar getting on the frog's skin. That would make for a sharp and immediate pH drop down to about 2.4 wherever contact is made, depending on how low a pH your vinegar has. Frogs would immediately absorb that into their skin.
> That would concern me...a lot. Yes, it would be a small amount, but your frog will eventually come to that feeding station immediately, while the vinegar was fresh and undiluted.
> ...


Hi Pumilo

I respect you very much, your posts, and Socrates Monologues posts were the body of input I read and appreciated on many levels, that inspired me to join.

Respectfully I would have to disagree with some of your contentions on the basis of my own experiences with darts that started in 1981, taking home wild caughts that were lost causes, and developing a knack for fixing them up and bringing them to flourish, this knack has been noted on an accountable to others, professional basis, by highly educated persons in the sciences and in exotics veterinary, zoo, and museum formats. 

But all of that would not matter or mean anything if I were married to my husbandry perspectives. Or didnt continue to develop them thru ongoing intense investigation, comparison, and exploring of factors. 

The water provisional is an important one to me, and one that has proved out through my work with significant results so i have not discarded it. 

It seems simple but encourages thorough hydration in a voluntary, yet closer to therapeutic level means, which has made a difference in both healthy and compromised subjects. It is not convenient to apply. It is not just putting in a water dish. 

As for the feeding station with fruit and a couple drops of vineger (i use apple cider, i think its better) I hear your theory and would have to say it sounds as precautionary as i am about many things, but contact with tannins, and flies that are raised with vinegar as a major component of many keepers dyi media make it hard to see as a scant olfactory note absorbed by a chunk of fruit. I use crystal geyser lids the 1.5 liter bottle ones, with a slit in the center that i pass a wooden coffee stirrer through, and stick it like a post in the sub. I usually just use a fruit slurry that i give my gallotias, that i add their supplements to. For the frogs I touch it up with the apple cider vineger, as an attractant. Because the slurry is semi liquid, i use the cap in the stick. But Ive put chunks of fruit in there, and it is actually true, that a homegrown fruit or genuine organic piece of fruitwill get more attention than the regular fare.

Feeding stations replicate natural cluster encounters of insect seasonal breeding, and food source swarms, in nature encountering these is an ecological bonus jackpot for the frog. So why not include it in the portfolio of their living experience in captivity?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

In the OPs case, applying feeding stations for the little frog was to help maintain a visual of his presence in the tank and encourage his take and growth at a crucial life stage. 

Abundancy is a preoccupying, speedily acclimating force.

My struggle to not be insufferable has been lost. Forgive me!


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

When I feed I usually put the flies in a small deli container with calcium d3 shake it around and then place it in the tank so that they crawl out and he can wait for them, does this count as a feeding station?


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

One problem I have with this though, is that I’ll place the flies in, and he gets scared and climbes to the top of the enclosure where the tub has a shelf he likes. The problem with this is that yes he eats the flies, but only after they have been on the move and lots of times that means they will have shooken off their supplements. Will having a piece of fruit to place the flies on keep them from dispersing around the tank and shaking of the calcium?

Thanks, Gus


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Here’s a photo of his placement, and the where I put the flies


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

One of the users on here did a microscopic examination of fruit flies that had been dusted and not consumed right away, the flies still retained the dusting at a microscopic level.

I would not leave the deli cup lid in the container with him, if he walks through the lid he might come into contact with excess amounts of the supplement powder. (There have been other threads on this forum talking about this topic in the last couple of days).

When you say calcium and d3, what brand of supplement are you using?


I would suggest way more leaf litter, the frog could be climbing to get away from the wet substrate.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I would suggest way more leaf litter, the frog could be climbing to get away from the wet substrate.


Agree. At least a few layers deep, on the whole bottom. The frog needs to be able to hide under there.

And -- feed the frog, put the cover back on and leave the room until tomorrow. It is likely getting pretty stressed out by all this. If it eats the flies, you'll notice fewer flies and more poop in there.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Ok, I added some more leaf litter, and removed the deli container. And I will leave him be until tomorrow. I only added a few more leaves, but when I get more they will be added. There is plenty of dry leaves in there though to escape the substrate. If you guys think I should add anything else let me know.

Thanks.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> One of the users on here did a microscopic examination of fruit flies that had been dusted and not consumed right away, the flies still retained the dusting at a microscopic level.


https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/64615-misting-flys.html#post563902

Apparently Ed also measured the reduction in dust remaining at points over a period of time, but I can't find the post.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Also I’m using repticalcium by zoo med


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

gusgieg said:


> Also I’m using repticalcium by zoo med


There's nothing but calcium carbonate and a D3 source in that product, which means that it is rather incomplete as a stand-alone supplement. Most of us use Repashy Calcium Plus or Dendrocare, as they are formulated with a broader range of higher quality ingredients and compounds, as well as a usable form of vitamin A.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

I have this repashy as well, would it work or should I order a different supplement?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

gusgieg said:


> I have this repashy as well, would it work or should I order a different supplement?


This (i.e. "Repashy Calcium Plus")is the only supplementation product you need to use for the entire life of your frog. 

Keep the bottle in the fridge (not freezer) and replace it every six months.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Ok, I have had this bottle for over six months, I will try to get some more. Do I not need to supplement anything else?


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

I probably bought that about a year ago and realized it wasn’t the right thing I wanted, it’s opened. While I get more is it safe to use, or should I stick with the repti calci


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

A feeding _area_ is quite different from a feeding _station_. A feeding area is simply where you dump your flies. There is nothing in a feeding area to keep your flies there. They promptly scatter, making for good hunting. A feeding station uses bait to keep the flies there at all times.

Why don't I believe that maintaining a feeding station at all times is a good idea? 
An overwhelming majority of dart frogs being kept in captivity, are flat out obese. Obese...not a little overweight, flat out obese. I think that a feeding station makes that a little harder to control. More important, though, is I believe my frogs like to hunt. Hunting is natural behaviour programmed into them since the first frog crawled up out of the water. Hunting makes obese frogs get off their fat behinds and get some exercise in. In my opinion, feeding stations should be reserved to fatten up underweight frogs.

_"T. Rex doesn't want to be *fed*. He wants to hunt. Can't just... suppress 65 million years of gut instinct."_

In nature, of course there would be incidental, temporary feeding stations that frogs will eat at. That is a temporary situation. That's quite different than maintaining a feeding station at all times. A 24/7 feeding station has always seemed a lot like living in a McDonalds parking lot.
_Temporary_ feeding stations are natural. There is absolutely nothing natural about a _permanent_ feeding station.

I do use feeding _areas_. I've raised many a frog, but I can count the number of times I used a feeding _station_ on one hand, and still have fingers left over. My frogs never lived at McDonalds.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This (i.e. "Repashy Calcium Plus")is the only supplementation product you need to use for the entire life of your frog.
> 
> Keep the bottle in the fridge (not freezer) and replace it every six months.


That is exactly how Allen Repashy recommends storage and replacement. I find it's too easy to forget and leave your main supply out on the counter at room temperature. Every time that happens, degradation accelerates. My solution is to pull a week or two's worth of Repashy Calcium Plus and keep it in an airtight, black, film canister. It's got to be black to block light. Light will also accelerate degradation. You keep your film canister in the frogroom. You only refill it at the kitchen counter, beside the fridge. 
If I don't keep it that way, I tend to leave my main supply out.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

The product reads that it will expire in 2022


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

gusgieg said:


> The product reads that it will expire in 2022


If it isn't opened -- same deal as, say, milk or any other perishable.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

gusgieg said:


> the repti calci


Throw that away before it hurts someone. It isn't really suitable for dart frogs.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

It was opened when I purchased it but has been locked away and sealed ever since


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

If it’s still ok to use that would be great but I understand if it isn’t


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

gusgieg said:


> The product reads that it will expire in 2022


The moment you crack the lid, it begins oxidizing and degrading. It does so many, many times faster than human vitamins. Human vitamins have the advantage of being formed into a pill. That pill begins oxidizing exactly the same way our powder does, but most of the pill is at least somewhat protected by the outermost layer of the pill. 
Ours needs to be a dust, and it needs to be incredibly fine to stick to flies. That means that virtually 100% of vitamins in a dust form, will instantly begin it's degradation process upon first opening. 
Warm, (even room), temperatures accelerates the degradation.
Light accelerates degradation.
Moisture? Just throw it out and start over.
Clean, cool, very well sealed, and dark. Meet those 4 conditions, and an opened pack is good for 6 months. Fail on any one of those, and you'll need to replace it even more often than every 6 months. 
If that makes it unaffordable, find yourself a bottle buddy and go splits.

No freezer. Never a freezer.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Ok, I can get some more. In the time being is it safe to use, or should I stick with the repti calcium which is fresh.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Degraded vitamins are better than none, and right now your other product is just calcium.
I would use the Repashy that you have for today. Order a new bottle TODAY. I order mine directly from Repashy. Yes, I pay more in shipping than if I could order several things from one place, but it assures me that I just received Repashy vitamins from the freshest batch in the world.

Without proper vitamin supplementation, you WILL get into trouble. For instance, a lack of a preformed vitamin A supplement will cause your frog's tongue to lose it's stickiness. That means he cannot catch a fly. That is a dead frog. Sometimes, the first signs people see are that eggs are not viable. Sometimes the egg may be viable, but the tad is still deficient and doesn't develop properly. That's tough. When you have a fresh morph with tiny, threadlike front legs, or no front legs at all. That too, is a dead frog, but you will have to put him down. Nobody is ready to do that. I mean, we do it when we have to, but it is one of the worst experiences in frogging.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Some links for reading to add onto what has been discussed already:

Disadvantages of Overfeeding: (2 links)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/90502-healthy-too-fat-2.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...es-mealtime.html#/forumsite/20539/topics/9031

Vitamin A Deficiency & Froglet Benefits

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83056


Hope this helps. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Ok, glad I asked. I’ll order today. I’ve only had the frog since Friday so Hopefully the frog hasn’t developed any deficiencies. Thanks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

gusgieg said:


> Ok, glad I asked. I’ll order today. I’ve only had the frog since Friday so Hopefully the frog hasn’t developed any deficiencies. Thanks


It won't happen that fast. If your frog's former keeper is doing right by his or her frogs, your frog should still be healthy.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Pumilo said:


> gusgieg said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, glad I asked. I’ll order today. I’ve only had the frog since Friday so Hopefully the frog hasn’t developed any deficiencies. Thanks
> ...


 Joshs frogs seems to treat there frogs well, that’s where I got mine.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

gusgieg said:


> Joshs frogs seems to treat there frogs well, that’s where I got mine.


Josh's frogs will be using proper vitamins. He uses two that I actively dislike, but he makes up for it with other vits. I believe he follows a 5 product rotation.
You'll be fine till your new bottle shows up.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

OK, I am really glad I asked. thank you all so much , If I have problems in the future I know where to come.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

Just a quick update.

Today my repashy calcium plus arrived(I’d like to clarify that this is all I need to supplement).
I fed the frog and I don’t know if it’s me but he looks bigger already since I got him/her.
I added more leaf litter, also a bromeliad mounted on a sterilized piece of driftwood. Also he stopped climbing. The driftwood is propped up diagonaly so maybe it will inspire him to climb.


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## gusgieg (Feb 24, 2020)

He does like to climb on it


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

gusgieg said:


> Just a quick update.
> 
> Today my repashy calcium plus arrived(I’d like to clarify that this is all I need to supplement).


That is the best stand-alone supplement, IMO. You should be fine until such time as you are potentially ready to breed the frog, when some additional vitamin A may be needed now and then.


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