# Slack jaw (MBD?) in new froglets.



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

In one of the 8 producing groups, I'm getting froglets that are less than thriving.

The species that is having the problem is R. summersi. (old line)

Keeping them exactly like the other frogs tads. Parents are also managed similar to the other species that are producing just fine.

Water starts out at 100ppm tds, and 1-2 dkh., by morphing, water is usually up to around 170ppm...no water changes, temps 72-76F.

All the other species (auratus, nominat imi, brazillian yellowhead tincs, matecho, P. aurotania, red amazonicus come out of the water huge and grow just fine.

The summersi have shown leg (short front legs, strange angles on back legs, and had one that only had one back leg, but both front legs, and head defects, and sometimes morph looking fine, but later their jaws seem to be short and just hangin there, and they don't seem to grow, although they have been observed eating. Eventually, they just get skinny, and pass on.

Weak genes? Out of every 3-4 tads, I also get about 1 albino out of the bunch.

Thoughts on impoving the health:
Increase calcium (and D3?) in the water. 
Different temp of the water? I'm thinking this may have something to do with it, being that they are also taking on the average 3 or more months in the water, vs. about 2months for all my other species.
Calcium gluconate drops on newly morphed froglets?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Whenever I start getting 'funky' froglets morphing out, I slow down or stop the breeding pair from laying for a few months, to allow the female to sequester some more nutrients. Might be worth giving lower temps a try with the tads you currently have.

Part of me wonders how inbred some of the 'old line' frogs really are.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Im guessing its not a standard husbandry or beginner issue. Any chance of a vit.a defecincy?
Michael


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Brian,

What are you feeding the tadpoles? 

Also what supplements are you using and thier frequency in the adults? 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Repcal, Herptivite used 1:1 every feeding, which occurs every 2-3 days.
Once every two weeks I supplement with Repashy ICB.

Tads have a rotating diet of Tad bites, 3 differnet flake foods from Brine Shrimp direct (Beefheart plus, Earthworm plus, spirulina/kelp flake), and freeze dried cyclopeeze.

On doing some searches, someone in some other animal hobby had noted that beefheart has a really poor calcium/phosphorous ratio...I'm wondering if that may have something to do with it. But then again...this is one species that is having the problem, out of 8 different breeding groups. Every other group is producing great froglets.

These froglets that have been morphing are the first few these animals have produced.


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

new to breeding here! But only getting the Repashy Calcium ICB every couple weeks doesn't sound like very much to me. Nor does the feedings in general.
Experts please chime in on that. 

I feed mine Repcal Herptivite and Calcium w/Vit D alternating with every feeding. And feed breeders 2 times per day!
Just got Repashy Cal. w/ICB and am switching over to that as my primary supplement with occasional use of Superpig.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

VancouverBetta said:


> new to breeding here! But only getting the Repashy Calcium ICB every couple weeks doesn't sound like very much to me. Nor does the feedings in general.
> Experts please chime in on that.
> 
> I feed mine Repcal Herptivite and Calcium w/Vit A alternating with every feeding. And feed breeders 2 times per day!
> Just got Repashy Cal. w/ICB and am switching over to that as my primary supplement with occasional use of Superpig.


 
Been using the tried and true Repcal + Herptivite for over 7 years with decent results, which is why I elect only to use the Repashy ICB only once every two weeks.
Where do you get calcium with vitamin A?

AGAIN:
THIS IS ONLY HAPPENING TO ONE PAIR OUT OF 8 BREEDING GROUPS...THE OTHERS ARE DOING FINE.


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

Dancing frogs said:


> Been using the tried and true Repcal + Herptivite for over 7 years with decent results, which is why I elect only to use the Repashy ICB only once every two weeks.
> Where do you get calcium with vitamin A?
> 
> AGAIN:
> THIS IS ONLY HAPPENING TO ONE PAIR OUT OF 8 BREEDING GROUPS...THE OTHERS ARE DOING FINE.


Rep-Cal is the brand name.










The supplement types are (1) Herptivite & (2) Calcium w/vit D
When you say 'Herptivite & Repcal' do you mean the Calcium and are you using both as well?


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

VancouverBetta said:


> new to breeding here! But only getting the Repashy Calcium ICB every couple weeks doesn't sound like very much to me. Nor does the feedings in general.


Frogs in captivity are usually overweight as people feed them too much. I feed my frogs every other day and have great success.



> Just got Repashy Cal. w/ICB and am switching over to that as my primary supplement with occasional use of Superpig.


ICB has Vitamin A in it. You should avoid supplementing with fat soluble vitamins more than 3 times a week. I use ICB 3 times a week and straight calcium once a week. Every once in a while I will use Herptivite or something else. 



Dancing frogs said:


> Been using the tried and true Repcal + Herptivite for over 7 years with decent results, which is why I elect only to use the Repashy ICB only once every two weeks.
> Where do you get calcium with vitamin A?


Repashy ICB has retinol in it.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

VancouverBetta said:


> new to breeding here! But only getting the Repashy Calcium ICB every couple weeks doesn't sound like very much to me. Nor does the feedings in general.
> Experts please chime in on that.
> 
> I feed mine Repcal Herptivite and Calcium w/Vit D alternating with every feeding. And feed breeders 2 times per day!
> Just got Repashy Cal. w/ICB and am switching over to that as my primary supplement with occasional use of Superpig.


You are overfeeding and supplementing your frogs. While I am not sure of the effects of this and Chris may be the ideal logic is that if the frogs are vit.A deficent then the normal frog supplements are more than likely not going to be able to restore the deficency to a normal healthy level. 
Frogs in captivity for the most part are overfed and overweight. I have been guilty of this as well but I have cut back on feedings after seeking advice on this. If your viv is well established there should be no reason to feed more than once or twice a week.
Michael


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## VancouverBetta (Sep 25, 2009)

Great info. Chris & Michael, thanks. Sorry if this is becoming a thread hijack here! lol Hopefully this helps you as well Brian.
I started feeding more when my female lost a lot of weight once she started breeding again. But now that she is at a healthy size I can cut back for sure. Her last 2 clutches were the biggest yet and only 6 days apart (normally 12)!

Repashy says you can use the ICB as a daily supplement but you feel this is not the case?
What is the best way to get additional Vit. A in their diet? My Leuc pr. breed regularly but the eggs never hatch and rarely show any development.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks, Repashy does say to use on daily feedings but they dont figure in that you are using multiple supplements in your feedings or that feeding these frogs is not a daily requirement.'
Michael


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> You are overfeeding and supplementing your frogs. While I am not sure of the effects of this and Chris may be the ideal logic is that if the frogs are vit.A deficent then the normal frog supplements are more than likely not going to be able to restore the deficency to a normal healthy level.
> Frogs in captivity for the most part are overfed and overweight. I have been guilty of this as well but I have cut back on feedings after seeking advice on this. If your viv is well established there should be no reason to feed more than once or twice a week.
> Michael


Hi Michael,

This isn't intended to single you out but there has been a trend in several posts here, so I'm going to add a little clarification. The frequency of supplementation needs to be based on the frequency of feeding. If you are feeding every day then supplementation can occur on a daily basis, in this case the risk of oversupplementing comes from 2 factors
1) that supplements are formulated to stick to crickets and fruit flies retain proportionally more of the supplement per size than do crickets which causes the risk of oversupplementation
2) frogs are programed to overeat during periods of abundence. This in combination with #1 above compounds the risk of oversupplementation. People should also be aware that you can oversupplement calcium as readily as you can the fat soluble vitamins. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

VancouverBetta said:


> Repashy says you can use the ICB as a daily supplement but you feel this is not the case?
> .


Back in November, I took their word on it, and started using the ICB exclusively, till it ran out 2 months later.
Saw an immediate increase in egg fertility, followed 3 weeks later by a cease in breeding of pairs that have been once a week breeders, and crap for fertility in the frogs that did breed.

May or may not be coincidence (especially being that temps go down at the same time of year), I elected to cut back to using what had been working fairly well before, (the pink and blue) and adding the ICB (for the vit A, and retinol) to the rotation once every two weeks, just in case too much A or something else in the ICB was the culprit.

I'm leaning towards the summersi maybee having slightly different requirements than the rest of my collection mostly in tad care, being that I'm getting very good egg fertility (hardly any ever go bad), coupled with the fact that the tads take a good month longer than all my other species.

I'm thinking of trying increasing the mineral content of my water.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Brian,



Dancing frogs said:


> Repcal, Herptivite used 1:1 every feeding, which occurs every 2-3 days.
> Once every two weeks I supplement with Repashy ICB.
> 
> Tads have a rotating diet of Tad bites, 3 differnet flake foods from Brine Shrimp direct (Beefheart plus, Earthworm plus, spirulina/kelp flake), and freeze dried cyclopeeze.
> ...



I asked about the diet and the supplements as the symptoms are also consistent with both over and under supplementation of vitamin A as retinol. Over supplementation of vitamin A as a retinoid (not as a carotenoid) during embryo development will cause not only deformation of the limbs but deformation of the cranial areas and other body areas. 

I did a quick look at the ingredients for the foods you are using, and they all contain some sources of retinoids but I can't tell if they are in excess or not. 

At least with tadpoles, MBD type issues are easy to resolve by increasing the level of calcium dissolved in the water. The tadpole will uptake the calcium from the water to balance out the excess phosphorus however I have doubts that is the problem unless the main portion of thier diet has a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio and the water has a poor ratio of calcium to phosphate (the latter has been a problem in some zoos where phosphates were added to tap water and then run through carbon filters where further phophates were then leached into the water). 

I would suggest first checking the calcium and phosphate levels in the tadpole rearing water over time. If that works out to a good ratio, then I would then look at the tadpole diets and then last at the adult diets. 

It is possible that this species is more sensitive to one or more nutrients. 

Ed


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks for the info ed. I will read up on it. As to the overfeeding end of it, Does this have any negative long term results on the frogs and breeders that you know of?
Michael


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Thanks for the info ed. I will read up on it. As to the overfeeding end of it, Does this have any negative long term results on the frogs and breeders that you know of?
> Michael


Fatty liver, faster turn around to egg deposition (this is driven by lipids and eggs can be laid that are provisioned at the cost of stored nutrients from the female and still be insufficient for proper development) to name two right off the top of my head. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> Back in November, I took their word on it, and started using the ICB exclusively, till it ran out 2 months later.
> Saw an immediate increase in egg fertility, followed 3 weeks later by a cease in breeding of pairs that have been once a week breeders, and crap for fertility in the frogs that did breed.
> 
> May or may not be coincidence (especially being that temps go down at the same time of year), I elected to cut back to using what had been working fairly well before, (the pink and blue) and adding the ICB (for the vit A, and retinol) to the rotation once every two weeks, just in case too much A or something else in the ICB was the culprit.
> ...


Posted while I was typing up my reply. You beat me to some of my thoughts.. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

K.
The water is based on RO water, so should not have much phosphate at all.
Using RO right and similar products to get the water to the specs I listed in the original post.

Would you recommend just upping the TDS with the RO right, or would/could it be beneficial to use the calcium with D3 added to the present mix in very small amounts?

On that note how long will D3 remain usable when added to water?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Brian,

If you are using RO right, you can always just up the amount of dissolved solutes in the water. That is going to be better than trying to adjust it using calcium carbonate (which isn't very soluble). 

There can be other sources of phosphate.. such as foods as they decompose into the water. 

Ed


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