# Where to start? Want to learn to do own fecals.



## cypho23 (Apr 6, 2012)

Not a fecal on ME, but on my frogs...just wanted to clear that up.

I want to learn to do fecals and test for other nasties on my frogs. Could anybody provide guidance as to texts, supplies needed, a good microscope(within a reasonable budget) and any other resources that would be well advised? 

I am quite a few years removed from a Biology degree, but am able to read and digest about anything, know how to use a scope, and am a quick learn.

Am sure there is a decent size percentage of froggers here that have taken their husbandry and disease/parasite recognition to that next level. I understand the importance of a good herp vet, but I want to be more proactive and learn more. 

Looking for some good start points and direction. I have ordered Wright and Whitaker's "Captive Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry" and look forward to its arrival.

Thanks for all and any help.

Apologies if this thread is in the wrong spot.


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

here is a good place to start
Frog Forum - How to do Fecal Exams

im not a fan of the recipe for the supersaturated solution, and hope someone can give input on a better one? something with a sg of 1.2 that isnt a pita to work with.

as far as scopes go, im very happy with my Omano OM139-T however i have seen some ok optics from AMScope...

it has NOT been easy learning the process its more of an art, but the investment has paid in full with quick diagnosis of a few fecals and a few smears (dont forget a lot of stuff is skin issues bacterial/fungal) so be sure to be ready with smear culture materials.

im eager to see where this thread goes. i know of two people that were thinking about making the plunge, so i hope they did.


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## cypho23 (Apr 6, 2012)

Thank you for the link. Very good place to start.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Indeed, it is a lot of fun, and quite educational, to do one's own microbiology. With very basic tools and materials, one can enjoy all kinds of microscopic flora and fauna. However, that is where it ends. Positive results aside, any negative result will be, at best, a hobbiest observation. There is no substitute for a proper education. Collection, preparation, and observation techniques need to be developed over time, and in a controlled setting. Tools invaluable to proper diagnoses are beyond the scope of most hobbiest interest. A centrifuge, various stains, an autoclave, and knowledge on how to use them is paramount to diagnostic microscopy. There is no substitue for an experienced microbiologist. Accepting this statement is more than important. It is necessary. I do not mean to discourage a mind that wants to learn. You will see some awesome things and gain knowledge that one can not put a price on. Ultimately, however, we owe it to our animals to seek professional advice.


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Dont be deterred from the comment above. Ive diagnosed and treated three different frogs with three different issues(with peer review). With out the fast action I would have lost them. I agree about a certain moral obligation is owed, however if you can stabilize and or improve the frogs health in a day or two that can be the difference in a saved frog and a dead one while you tried to get an appointment at an exotic vet.


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## cypho23 (Apr 6, 2012)

I appreciate all the different perspectives. Thank you.


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## hoehnelli (Jan 12, 2013)

I'm in. There are no exotic vets anywhere near me. So this is not an idea o ftrying to skimp on costs rather improving my frogs chances in my case. We have the scopes, I dont have a centerfuge, anybody can get stains, and if the others can learn the right procedures I figure someone who is inclined can as well. my wife has her micro certification from college so I doubt the brush up will take to long and she will dig it. I say go for it. Im with ya.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I don't believe I did, nor do I wish to discourage learning. I was simply stating that microbiology, *in its diagnostic form*, is best done by a microbiologist. Agreed, anyone can do a simple smear or floatation. Furthermore, the equipment needed is readily available (expensive as it may be). In addition, drugs like Flagyl, Ivermectin, and Panacur are available to the hobbyist. So, why not do your own fecals? As I stated before, a positive result, even by an amateur, is still a positive result. Now what? Just because you are positive there is something there does not mean you are ready to treat. Please keep in mind, many common parasites need an intermediate host to complete their life cycle, and become infective. Meanwhile, they are shed as spores, which must be sporulated _in vitro_, to get a positive ID. Forget a microscope, centrifuge, staining equipment, and the knowledge on how, and when to use them. Are you prepared to support microscopic life and foster it's growth, in the interest of science? Is the biomass of pathogen great enough to require step therapy? If an infection is great, killing off the offender in one fell swoop may create a toxicity from the decay of bio matter. The treatment becomes pathogenic. How do you establish a density measurement, and be sure you are only counting the pathogens responsible? You don't want to simply kill everything. We have all heard of symbiotic relationships. How will you account for the pro-biotics that are sensitive to your treatments? What will your quarantine and treatment containers be? What is protocol for the husbandry of an infected animal? Some Nematodes, like _Strongyloides, _Hookworm, and Lungworm, can enter their host via the skin. Drugs like Panacure DO NOT kill the offending bug. Instead, they create an internal environment that is no longer preferred by the adult parasite. The parasite loosens it's grip, and is expelled. How will you account for this in your husbandry?

In summation, please, and by all means, educate yourself as much as you possibly can. In today's digital world, ignorance is an option. Do your own fecals. Do everything you can to properly triage a sick and/or dying animal. Go as far as you like. Get a degree and a proper education. Far be it from me to discourage education. In fact, I wholeheartedly support it. With the amount of voluntary ignorance in today's society, I wish I could pay for the education of people like the ones in this thread. You want to learn! For that, I applaud you! There is NO substitute for a proper education, however, there is always room for someone who wants to learn. Meanwhile, and while you are learning, leave the diagnostic medicine to those qualified to do so. Your animals will thank you!


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

When a vet is doing fecals for $20 how far are they taking it?

I wouldn't think they culture anything, probably just take a quick peek.

oh..... I hve 20 yeers of educmation..... took 10tH gread twice


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Your right below me, I'm a college gradgiate. Lulz...anyway, I suspect an experienced vet would recognize any findings, and prescribe accordingly. The concept I'm supporting is that a veterinarian has the knowledge to know the difference. At best, a hobbiest can see and learn. One, by definition, can not be a hobbyist and a diagnostician. They are mutually exclusive. My only point is this: Learn whenever given the opportunity, but be wise enough to understand that a proper education, in a controlled environment, has no comparison.



senditdonkey said:


> When a vet is doing fecals for $20 how far are they taking it?
> 
> I wouldn't think they culture anything, probably just take a quick peek.
> 
> oh..... I hve 20 yeers of educmation..... took 10tH gread twice


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