# Fat or gravid or...?



## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Any thoughts? I got five of these lil' dudes at the same time and one of them is very noticeably fatter than the rest. All seem to be in great health (active, eating, bold) but this one concerns me a bit. Thoughts?


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

She's pregnant!


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

frog dude said:


> She's pregnant!


My thoughts went there as well. However, if so she's been carrying everything around for about a month, maybe longer. That normal?


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

it was a little joke. I would move that frog away from the rest immediately and get professional help. Do you have a tropical animal vet in your area?


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm not saying it's not pregnant but....

I have mints, and even when they're really fat/full, they're more evenly fat around the waist, instead of looking like they have a beer gut...

Hopefully someone who breeds terribs can comment on this.

How old are they?


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

jdooley195 said:


> I'm not saying it's not pregnant but....
> 
> I have mints, and even when they're really fat/full, they're more evenly fat around the waist, instead of looking like they have a beer gut...
> 
> Hopefully someone who breeds terribs can comment on this.


That's what I'm hoping. Last I checked we don't have a single tropical vet within 150 miles.



jdooley195 said:


> How old are they?


Unknown. I thought they were about a year but I've since been informed that some of them may be as old as 17 months. The seller didn't keep them separated by age.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Definitely not normal, when my female mint is gravid she looks evenly chubby not anything like that.
I would also recommend talking to a vet.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Any other thoughts?


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

Egg bound or an internal mass???


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

There is something wrong with the frog, a blockage, a tumor, something. This is not normal. If you can afford it see a vet, but I doubt there is anything they can do to help. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

chuckpowell said:


> There is something wrong with the frog, a blockage, a tumor, something. This is not normal. If you can afford it see a vet, but I doubt there is anything they can do to help.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


Curious why you would jump to say you doubt they can do anything to help that. Not picking a fight just curious. A vet went to school for animals they SHOULD be able to help in theory.. lol. In any case I have no clue, but with my larger frogs when egg bound they dont look more evenly round like stated above.. but I also have no experience with terribs.. Hope all goes well with your frog none the less! I love terribs!


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## dartsami (Oct 30, 2006)

Have the frog ever been dropped on the group? The fat packs could be disrupted by landing hard on the belly, or by injury. Could also be an impaction by eating too much substrate when foraging for flies. What type of substrate are you using?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

That frog looks impacted and only a portion of the insides has been effected, perhaps that area will atrophy and not harm the frog. If it were impacted and backing up the whole system the entire frog would be bloated. You may want to put the frog in smaller container with some standing water that reaches the frogs lower body, that may help whatever is stuck pass, it may take a couple of days, so put it in a quiet area and don't even peek for a day or so...at least that's my recommendation, good luck.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Here is a pic of my female:


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

The reason I asked about the age, was just simply to see if it was too young to be gravid (I am only assuming there's an age at which they're able to produce eggs), so we could rule that out as a possibility.

Any one know for a fact when Terribs can start producing eggs?


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

dartsami said:


> Have the frog ever been dropped on the group? The fat packs could be disrupted by landing hard on the belly, or by injury. Could also be an impaction by eating too much substrate when foraging for flies. What type of substrate are you using?


Not to my knowledge. I've noticed this problem gaining momentum for a while but only over the last month or so have I become concerned. Before that I just thought it was normal growth.

The tank has a variety of substrates (it's a rehome) but the top layer is ABG with plenty of leaf litter on top.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

jdooley195 said:


> The reason I asked about the age, was just simply to see if it was too young to be gravid (I am only assuming there's an age at which they're able to produce eggs), so we could rule that out as a possibility.
> 
> Any one know for a fact when Terribs can start producing eggs?


Mine were close to two years old when they started laying.


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Try a warm water soak.. Worth a shot..


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

TheCoop said:


> Try a warm water soak.. Worth a shot..


Yea and if you're going to soak it, might as well drop it in some ARS. 

That does not look good to me. Is it soft and spongy? It looks soft and spongy. Kind of loose to be bloat, in my noobish opinion. There was another post of a terribilis who had something similar looking but it was under their chin rather than the belly. I'll go look for that. Maybe you could follow up with that poster to see if anything came of that baggy chinned frog. brb


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok here's the tread I was talking about. She starts out asking about the nose on one frog, but, look at the neck on the other. (turns out that these weren't her frogs but rather were at a state aquarium)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/91064-what-wrong-frogs-nose.html


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I guess its comes down to 28 years keeping Dendrobatids. I've never seen an obese frog look like that, I've never seen a pregnant frog look like that. The stomach is swollen the rest of the frog looks pretty normal. This makes me think either some kind of tumor or growth or blockage. The latter would likely cause sepsis and general swelling of the whole frog - so I vote for a growth or tumor of some kind. 

No offense taken. It was a good question. 

Best,

Chuck



Nismo95 said:


> Curious why you would jump to say you doubt they can do anything to help that. Not picking a fight just curious. A vet went to school for animals they SHOULD be able to help in theory.. lol. In any case I have no clue, but with my larger frogs when egg bound they dont look more evenly round like stated above.. but I also have no experience with terribs.. Hope all goes well with your frog none the less! I love terribs!


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

chuckpowell said:


> I guess its comes down to 28 years keeping Dendrobatids. I've never seen an obese frog look like that, I've never seen a pregnant frog look like that. The stomach is swollen the rest of the frog looks pretty normal. This makes me think either some kind of tumor or growth or blockage. The latter would likely cause sepsis and general swelling of the whole frog - so I vote for a growth or tumor of some kind.
> 
> No offense taken. It was a good question.
> 
> ...



Chuck, thanks for the comment back. You say a vet probably couldnt do anything for him, would you still advise him to see a vet to weigh on the side of caution? Just curious where the line lays and when we should cross it. I am overly sensitive of our frogs.. and if I see something even slightly abnormal I freak out.. lol so with 28 years of background.. I am all ears to hear what advice you can give someone like myself who has only been in the hobby for 2.5 years.

Brandon


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

Sorry to hijack the thread but I have the very same question about my female Cristobal. She just laid 2 clutches of eggs so I'm guessing gravid. Thanks 
Buddy


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Brandon,

Thinking about what would be done with a human if it was a tumor or something similar - probably operate. That's not going to work with a small frog - not with the current state of medicine for our frogs. Yeah if you have the money see a vet - might as well get an professional opinion. My opinion is just a guess, an educated guess, but a guess. Chances are you'll see a vet and they won't have a solution - its just one of those things. 

Best,

Chuck



Nismo95 said:


> Chuck, thanks for the comment back. You say a vet probably couldnt do anything for him, would you still advise him to see a vet to weigh on the side of caution? Just curious where the line lays and when we should cross it. I am overly sensitive of our frogs.. and if I see something even slightly abnormal I freak out.. lol so with 28 years of background.. I am all ears to hear what advice you can give someone like myself who has only been in the hobby for 2.5 years.
> 
> Brandon


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

chuckpowell said:


> Brandon,
> 
> Thinking about what would be done with a human if it was a tumor or something similar - probably operate. That's not going to work with a small frog - not with the current state of medicine for our frogs. Yeah if you have the money see a vet - might as well get an professional opinion. My opinion is just a guess, an educated guess, but a guess. Chances are you'll see a vet and they won't have a solution - its just one of those things.
> 
> ...



Again, thanks Chuck. Appreciate the replies.. And to the OP sorry to kinda steer this thread in a different direction there. Also, Chuck.. I may contact you privately to pick your brain from time to time if you dont mind.. Like I said, I have been in the hobby for a couple years and I have learned a ton of useful info in my time.. But learning more from someone who has been around the game when the PDF's probably first came around... cant pass that up!


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## AshMashMash (Jun 1, 2013)

chuckpowell said:


> Brandon,
> 
> Thinking about what would be done with a human if it was a tumor or something similar - probably operate. That's not going to work with a small frog - not with the current state of medicine for our frogs. Yeah if you have the money see a vet - might as well get an professional opinion. My opinion is just a guess, an educated guess, but a guess. Chances are you'll see a vet and they won't have a solution - its just one of those things.
> 
> ...


Depends exactly on the vet in question and what exactly is going on. 

Multiple (survival) surgeries are performed on Xenopus frogs for oocyte extraction (a laparotomy approach).

This article describes anaesthetic death rates for amphibians around 0.5-2%. Comparitively very good, (healthy) rabbits being around 1% and (healthy) dogs around 0.01%.

At least worth some investigation if the OP is keen. Could be an abscess needing minimally invasive lancing only... no one can tell without investigating it.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I agree with chuck, Something looks wrong with the frog and I never heard of a vet operating on a frog. 
Not to hi-jack thread but can something be done for a gravid female?


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey Chuck, I belonged to your dendro news letter way back ( pre internet). It was a great wealth of info when there was none. Thanks for getting this hobby started. john


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## AshMashMash (Jun 1, 2013)

Tricolor said:


> I agree with chuck, Something looks wrong with the frog and I never heard of a vet operating on a frog.


I'm not saying this particular case is operative, or not, but as I just posted above it's certainly something which is done. When I was a vet student I saw practice at an exotics vets and saw a lump removal on an axolotl. Currently at my practice we operate on terrapins / tortoises / chameleons / iguanas / bearded dragons. Collegues down the road do dental burring on puffer fish, lump removals on koi carp.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Im sure it can be done I did it in high school(the frog did not make it). I just never heard of anybody paying a vet to operate on a frog. Thats all did not mean to upset you.


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## AshMashMash (Jun 1, 2013)

Tricolor said:


> Im sure it can be done I did it in high school(the frog did not make it). I just never heard of anybody paying a vet to operate on a frog. Thats all did not mean to upset you.


Lol I'm not upset, just pointing out the other side  Fair enough you've not heard of it done, this area of veterinary medicine is expanding vastly recently.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Thanks my friend for not taken that the wrong way. The board can get a little stiff. My sad attemps at humor can get me into hot water.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I'm talking about the animal that started this discussion. The others you all are mentioning are much larger, ten times, 100 times larger. Your all are also talking about procedures (oocyte remove and others) that aren't as invasive as going in, looking around and then trying to figure out how to remove or fix what's there. Veterinary medicine just isn't there yet, not on something as small as a Phyllobates. And who's going to pay many hundred, if not thousands of dollars on a $100 frog. Just asking. 

Best,

Chuck


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## AshMashMash (Jun 1, 2013)

chuckpowell said:


> I'm talking about the animal that started this discussion. The others you all are mentioning are much larger, ten times, 100 times larger. Your all are also talking about procedures (oocyte remove and others) that aren't as invasive as going in, looking around and then trying to figure out how to remove or fix what's there. Veterinary medicine just isn't there yet, not on something as small as a Phyllobates. And who's going to pay many hundred, if not thousands of dollars on a $100 frog. Just asking.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


I was posting about similar veterinary prodecures in similar species: oocyte removal involves a laparotomy approach in _Xenopus_ sp. and that technique is described in detail. It's very invasive. 

Size-wise, it's obviously a consideration but not something which would stop it, if that's what is needed. Here's an article describing lapartomy in peurto rican crested toads (64-120mm in length).

Veterinary medicine is indeed "there". Especially with the techniques people like Stephen Hernandez-Divers are using with endoscopes. Of course it's hugely more risky and more research is needed, but it's not something we (or you or OP) should dismiss as a lost cause. 

As for money, that's your personal opinion, and you're entitled to it. I recently did a forelimb amputation on a musk turtle (worth, what... $20-40? I'm not from the US), with pre-anesthetic bloods as well, perhaps totalling £300 or so ($455).


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

Thats not gravid, fat deposit most likely.

D


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Follow Up:

I pretty much took no action. I kept saying to myself that if I saw that frog moving slow or acting unusual in any way that I would separate it from the rest and try some of the suggestions in this thread, namely giving it a soak and going from there. However, if anything this frog seemed more active than the rest and so I kept hoping it would get better.

About a week ago this frog disappeared for a day or two. No idea where it went but it was suddenly just gone. Fearing the worst I was going to conduct a thorough search of the tank only to find it hopping along in plain sight. Not only that but the vast majority of the 'beer gut' was gone. Looking at it today there only difference between it and the other frogs is a very small pouch where the gut used to be, almost like extra skin left over after someone loses a lot of weight.

So I'm thinking that it was a simple blockage and it passed?


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## Trey (Sep 10, 2008)

Probably a rough couple of days on the toilet for that frog. Ouch


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