# Import numbers!



## Dendrobatid

Wow! I'm sure some of you have seen this. I'm pretty shocked at the total number of species and individuals being imported and who's importing them. Really made me think more about conservation..

Animal imports


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## pl259

Interesting site. Thanks for sharing.

I see there were still a lot of Pumilio imported last year. Looks close to 1200.

Those are the biggest concern for me. It's been like that for several years now.


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## Dendrobatid

Yeah I knew that quite a few of these species were imported. I just didn't realize that the number of individuals within those species were so high. Also the wording used to describe the source "Breeding, ranching or other source". What do they mean by "other source" ? In my opinion "Ranching" often means that the animals are collected out of the wild and placed in a holding facility that is called a "Ranch". This had been a problem with a number of herp species. Another word "Farmed" carries the same situation as far as I'm concerned.


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## JJuchems

The site is old and has been discussed in another thread. It has not been updated (2010 numbers) as it was created in response to the python issues (little girls death and invasive species in FL). 

I have heard the rumor that Panama is shutting down commercial exports from a few reliable sources. Like I said a rumor. I was told the shipment this week was small, only around 25 mancreek plus Cauchero, El Dorado, and Cristobal.


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## james67

why do we still import x. laevis ? would you like a side of Bd with that order?

all dart #s seemed pretty small to me. even 1200 pumilio from, lets say, 10 locations in the last year is only 120 of each locale. 

looks like the things that were imported most were whites, firebelly, dwarf clawed, and bullfrogs, not in that order

james


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## Baltimore Bryan

I thought it was interesting that there were quite a few histos from Georgia and Germany within the last 3-4 years imported. I am also concerned with the number of pumilio being collected, but hopefully it is small enough to not cause problems.
Bryan


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## JJuchems

james67 said:


> all dart #s seemed pretty small to me. even 1200 pumilio from, lets say, 10 locations in the last year is only 120 of each locale.
> 
> looks like the things that were imported most were whites, firebelly, dwarf clawed, and bullfrogs, not in that order
> 
> james


These are US numbers only, you are not seeing Asia or Europe import numbers. You are also comparing apples to oranges on the number of offspring when comparing White's, Firebelly, and the other species.


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## Dendrobatid

Quite often illegal frogs are brought in under the species name of legal frogs. It is very difficult for officials to get a handle on this, a lot of species look very similar.


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## edwardsatc

james67 said:


> why do we still import x. laevis ? would you like a side of Bd with that order?


Good question! Seems rather silly considering how easy it is to produce thousands of these with a bit of HCG.

In my lab, we produce thousands of eggs and tads on a weekly basis.


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## Brotherly Monkey

edwardsatc said:


> Good question! Seems rather silly considering how easy it is to produce thousands of these with a bit of HCG.
> 
> In my lab, we produce thousands of eggs and tads on a weekly basis.


HCG?

ten characters


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## Dendrobatid

Human chorionic gonadotropin


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## edwardsatc

Dendrobatid said:


> Human chorionic gonadotropin


Yes, I guess I should have provided a bit more detail in my post.

Ovulation is induced in _Xenopus laevis_ by injection of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). Pairs will produce eggs within 24 hours of injection. 

In our lab we use _Xenopus laevis_ in Frog Embryo Teratogenesis Assay-Xenopus (FETAX) and other toxicological exposures.


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## Brotherly Monkey

edwardsatc said:


> Yes, I guess I should have provided a bit more detail in my post.
> 
> Ovulation is induced in _Xenopus laevis_ by injection of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG). Pairs will produce eggs within 24 hours of injection.
> 
> In our lab we use _Xenopus laevis_ in Frog Embryo Teratogenesis Assay-Xenopus (FETAX) and other toxicological exposures.


That's what I thought you were referencing , but just struck me as strange that you were using it to induce egg-laying in ACF's


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## thedude

boy someone in baltimore must be one hell of a breeder to be able to import 105 galactonotus to the netherlands. considering brazil is closed and theres no ranching going on there.

and by breeder i mean smuggler.....


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## pl259

thedude said:


> boy someone in baltimore must be one hell of a breeder to be able to import 105 galactonotus to the netherlands. considering brazil is closed and theres no ranching going on there.
> 
> and by breeder i mean smuggler.....


I think its pretty obvious who that is. Importing 105 galacs from the Netherlands seems plausible. Why do you think there's smuggling involved?


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## Taron

I know several people breeding hundreds of galacs! 105 is a small number

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Blue_Pumilio

I know a few people that breed them for the wholesale market, likely about 250-500 frogs a year.


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## Nick

thedude said:


> boy someone in baltimore must be one hell of a breeder to be able to import 105 galactonotus to the netherlands. considering brazil is closed and theres no ranching going on there.
> 
> and by breeder i mean smuggler.....


I have personally supplied animals (cb) for these shipments. This person is not producing them all, rather gathering up for shipments through trades and the like.

It helps to know what you are talking about before speculating...


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## Ed

A relevent article 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/b013x81t3306565k/fulltext.pdf


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## Dendrobatid

Ed,
Thanks for the article, very interesting. I didn't realize that Lebanon was a non-CITES party.

Jim


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## edwardsatc

Nick said:


> I have personally supplied animals (cb) for these shipments. This person is not producing them all, rather gathering up for shipments through trades and the like.
> 
> It helps to know what you are talking about before speculating...


It would seem that neither one of you has checked the facts. That transaction was an _import from the Netherlands_ NOT an export to the Netherlands. A quick check of the CITES trade database confirms this.


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## Woodsman

Hi Nick,

I'm glad to know that you personally can attest that A. galactonotus is not being smuggled from Brasil. Given that they were never legally exported, CITES and federal law state that all the progeny of the smuggled frogs would be illegal as well.

I'm glad you cleared that up for me. Richard.



Nick said:


> I have personally supplied animals (cb) for these shipments. This person is not producing them all, rather gathering up for shipments through trades and the like.
> 
> It helps to know what you are talking about before speculating...


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## Nick

Woodsman said:


> Hi Nick,
> 
> I'm glad to know that you personally can attest that A. galactonotus is not being smuggled from Brasil. Given that they were never legally exported, CITES and federal law state that all the progeny of the smuggled frogs would be illegal as well.
> 
> I'm glad you cleared that up for me. Richard.


Richard,
I never made a comment about them not being smuggled from Brazil, only that the transaction in question (which I was wrong about anyway) did not involve smuggled frogs being imported out of the US by a certain individual.


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## james67

dont take it personally nick, richard just HAS to be obnoxious and preachy all the time. 


example from less than an hour ago:



Woodsman said:


> What the f is that supposed to mean? I can give you all on this board my assurance that no animals are harmed by the cruel practice of wild-stealing, but you don't need to know who I am?
> 
> You just lost any and all credibility on this board (as far as I'm concerned).
> 
> Richard.


james


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## Woodsman

Thanks for the quote James. Have some spare time on your hands today?

Richard.



james67 said:


> dont take it personally nick, richard just HAS to be obnoxious and preachy all the time.
> 
> 
> example from less than an hour ago:
> 
> 
> 
> james


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## Woodsman

Hi Nick,

I think many of us who produce frogs in good quantities have worked with people that export frogs to Europe. I don't have any doubt that illegal frogs are NOT being transported to Europe from the U.S.

The problem for me seemed to be that you were suggesting that the person you were quoting did not have evidence that illegal frogs were being smuggled at all. The fact is that essentially all of the new color morphs of A. galactonotus are being imported from Europe. So, unless there are wild populations of actively-evolving A. galactonotus roaming around the EU, then there are frogs that are smuggled into the EU and then forwarded to the U.S. (even the progeny of smuggled frogs would be considered smuggled by CITES).

Just a clarification, Richard.



Nick said:


> Richard,
> I never made a comment about them not being smuggled from Brazil, only that the transaction in question (which I was wrong about anyway) did not involve smuggled frogs being imported out of the US by a certain individual.


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## james67

yep.  
i dont work for a few more hours.

james


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## Woodsman

Hi James,

I guess we could have (yet another) knock-down, drag-out over the "smuggling" issue, but I think it's become clear where people's allegiances lay with respect to the subject. I have learned that, no matter how I might feel about this subject, the reality is that our hobby is a free for all and people are going to do what they want to do.

You may think it obnoxious that I express my concern over this issue and I might think you are at fault for supporting it. So, there we are. All I can really hope for is that the people who own the smuggled frogs will be successful at breeding them and make the need for continued smuggling unnecessary.

Take care, Richard.



james67 said:


> yep.
> i dont work for a few more hours.
> 
> james


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## thedude

fair enough, i withdraw my comment.

at the same time, it would be good for some of you to think about some of the frogs we have and where they came from. considering several of them never left their country of origin legally. just saying.


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## MonarchzMan

james67 said:


> why do we still import x. laevis ? would you like a side of Bd with that order?
> 
> all dart #s seemed pretty small to me. even 1200 pumilio from, lets say, 10 locations in the last year is only 120 of each locale.
> 
> looks like the things that were imported most were whites, firebelly, dwarf clawed, and bullfrogs, not in that order
> 
> james


2010 was incomplete as Jason said, but if you look at 2009, about 2400 pumilio were reported imported into the US. I don't think that it's quite accurate to say that 10 locales were imported over the course of a year. I don't think that it'd really be more than 5. Even so, it doesn't seem like a whole lot, but depending on the extent of the population and area where they are, it could be a problem.


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## Ed

The number imported in the US is only a portion of the trade.. See the link I posted above in this post http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/66270-import-numbers-2.html#post587040

Ed


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## MonarchzMan

I am rather familiar with the Nijman and Shepherd article, and what strikes me as interesting is a possible discrepency between that and the link originally posted. Nijman and Shepherd said about 15,000 pumilio were exported between 2004-2008, so about 3000 a year (unless they meant a 4 year period, which would be 3750 per year), and that was a worldwide export.

Does the US really get the vast majority of pumilio or is something not adding up here? I didn't check the years on the original website, but I'm assuming that 2400 is "typical." I would have assumed at least a similar demand for them in Europe, let alone Asia...


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## Ed

The problem comes from non-CITES countries as they aren't under any obligations to report the numbers. 

Here is the commercial use data from the CITES trade database (as a gross report) without the numbers for 2010 yet. From 2004-2007 there actually more than 16,000 pumilio exported from Panama alone for commercial purposes (with more than 22,000 between 2004-2009). In the period of 04-09; 3873 pumilio were exported from the US. If I wasn't tired I could pull up the trade report per reporting country so where the frogs went could at least in part be seen. 

I had to delete the chart as I couldn't get it to dispay correctly.


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## Catfur

Ed said:


> A relevent article
> 
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/b013x81t3306565k/fulltext.pdf


Interesting article, and I agree that exports from Kazakhstan to Lebanon to Thailand is indubitably fishy. The authors are arguing from a criminal level of ignorance about the captive trade in Dendrobatids, to the point that it ruins their paper. I don't doubt their conclusions, but anyone who is going to make the argument that because Peru never exported amazonicus and no zoos keep them (given the dubious nature of even the nomen amazonicus, as well as the groups history as quinquevittatus), as well as using zoos #s of Phyllobates to say that they aren't being captive bred is on staggeringly thin ice (well, drowning in a stew of their own ignorance, in fact). I don't doubt both species have been smuggled out of their original habitats, and that many CB lines originate from smuggled animals, but very substantial numbers of the example species have been produced in the captive breeding trade (to the point of market collapse for some Phyllobates), and captive trade in these species is accepted as legal in all CITES countries that I know of. 

If authors are going to make important arguments and use such staggeringly ill-researched data as support, then they should not bother damaging themselves and their conclusions, and go find something else to do.


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## Ed

I wasn't interested in the conclusions they drew on what was available as much as the role non-CITES countries were playing and how much of the trade in reported frogs is going to other countries than the US...


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