# Heating/Design



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Hey guys - here is a lousy drawing of what I am wanting to do. 

What I wanted to do was have a water feature that had fish. 

I decided against that because the D. tinct's that I want arent supposed to have them. 

But I still want a waterfall - so I have a small aqualifter pump (3.5 gph) that will take water from the planted tank - and then pump it onto a waterfall. If this is not enough, I might upgrade pumps or use two or something along those lines. 

At the bottom of the waterfall there will be a fog machine outlet - and also a small pool. At the bottom of the pool will be a hole drilled in the tank which will take water back to the planted aquarium (filtered by an eheim and plants - water will be very clean)

Just wanted to know what everyone thinks about this design, I already have a stand that could make this work. 

Another question is - how would everyone go about heating this tank? Im looking to do LED's - I dont want that dry heat from heat lamps. 

So ideally I guess (in my inexperienced frog mind) I would like heat coming from the bottom where you could get a nice "wet" heat for the frogs. 

Please let me know the best route to go. 

Thanks!


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Oh - and the aquariums are both ten gallons.


----------



## ClintonJ (May 11, 2009)

Sounds cool. You could potentially have a lot of water coming down the water feature and not much of a false bottom in the top tank. Be careful with the overflow. Don't want any critters accidentally getting introduced to the planted tank!


----------



## C172Flyer (Nov 3, 2011)

If you are doing tincs then you probably dont need to heat the tank. Room temp 72 or so is fine for tincs, unless you are keeping in a colder area of the house.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

ClintonJ said:


> Sounds cool. You could potentially have a lot of water coming down the water feature and not much of a false bottom in the top tank. Be careful with the overflow. Don't want any critters accidentally getting introduced to the planted tank!


The overflow will have a guard on it - no worries, I have thought that out.

Another question of mine might be - how should I handle substrate in this tank. Make the "pool" about an inch deep? Should I actually build a small pool to keep the water in one area? 

Im also thinking of designing my own mist/rain system...this would be run via a similar fashion - with airline tubing with tiny holes...cap at the other end. Then a fancy digital timer. Water would be pulled from the frog pool and go into the mister - so Im assuming that it should be designed that all the water will go down to the level of this "overflow". 

Im planning on using hydroton...but not quite sure how I should go about setting up the substrate in a tank like what I am envisioning...dont want to keep things too wet - I have read about the fungal issues with the frogs. 

Anyone have comments on heating this tank?


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

C172Flyer said:


> If you are doing tincs then you probably dont need to heat the tank. Room temp 72 or so is fine for tincs, unless you are keeping in a colder area of the house.


Right now with my window open (we are basically having summer weather) its mid 70's in my room. That Im okay with - but during the winter its probably somewhere around 68F which to me seems low based on the species profiles I have seen on here...dont want the guys (or and gal) to get cold...I think the profile says mid 70's to 80 on here.


----------



## C172Flyer (Nov 3, 2011)

If the lowest it gets is 68 then you are fine, they can handle temps lower then that. I'm always more worried about controlling heat in the summer instead of worrying if its to cold.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Temp in my room never goes over 80F. Or at least by that much. Pumping that water up there and having it fall back to the planted tank should also help moderate temperatures. 

Thanks for the post. 

What does everyone think about the DIY mister and how I should arrange my substrate?


----------



## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

A few potential speed bumps I'm foreseeing with your plans (not meant to be discouraging, just hoping to help prevent excessive cursing and wasted pocket change):

1. I'm not familiar, at all, with zoonotic pathogens between fish and amphibians but I'm sure a handful exist and you risk exposing frogs or fish to these by sharing water. It's been done before, just need to be thinking about the darn germs.

2. A water feature in a 10 gallon takes away a lot of space from the already relatively small tank, especially for a larger species like the tincs. An unobtrusive drip wall would be fairly compact, just something to think about in your design process.

3. The tannins from your frog viv (from leaf litter, any wood, substrate, etc) is going to really discolor your aquarium water if that's something you're concerned about.

As for a DIY misting system, it's been done by a few people but the general consensus is that Mist King is still the best bang for your buck. Do a search for "DIY misting" and I'm sure you'll find plenty of attempts on the idea.

Your plan to pull water from the tank reservoir for your misting system will probably end in cursing on your part as the misting nozzles will clog quite quickly with all of the particulates that float around in viv water.

Substrate, either clay or turface for something a little easier but slightly less beneficial. I would also consider a false bottom over hydroton just to prevent excess wicking of moisture into the substrate as your planning on having an extensive rain/misting system so you want maximal drainage.

Just some thoughts, hopefully this didn't sound too negative! Just pointing out some potential problems to help you avoid head aches.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Max - I can handle it, and thanks for the honesty. 

This "waterfall" at 3.5gph is going to basically be a drip. We are talking about a very small pool in one side. 

I dont mind tannins - and neither do my fish. My oak wood driftwood naturally leaches it anyways. With time this will also dissapate. 

So as far as the substrate goes - hydroton on bottom - then one of those separaters (whats everyones favorite and why?) and then I will need some sort of substrate for plants, and then peat moss on top of that?

I can handle the peat moss - but what sort of underneath planting substrate should I plan on using?

Leaf littler I also plan on adding...anything wrong with using our native oak leaves? I have seen some threads where it is done with boiling the leaves...just wondering if there were any drawbacks to that. Otherwise I will order some almond leaves from joshes frogs or another source if someone is aware of a cheaper one. 

Another concern of mine is - where does all the frog waste go? Im one of these guys that keeps immaculate aquariums...so how do I keep my frogs from wallowing around in their own waste? 

Thanks for all the help!


----------



## C172Flyer (Nov 3, 2011)

I use 1-1/2" of hydroton and about 2" of ABG substrate followed by a big layer of leaf litter. I separate the 2 layers with just fiberglass window screening that Ive had laying around in the garage. For leaf litter I like the live oak and magnolia leaves, beacuse they last for a long while in the tank. 
As far as cleaning the tank stock the tank with lots or springtails and isopods, they will do all the cleaning for you as well as give the froggies a snack. I never clean my tanks only just wipe the glass off once in a while.


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> Max - I can handle it, and thanks for the honesty.
> 
> Glad you took that well, it was some really good advice that many of us had to learn the hard way!
> 
> ...


Hope that helps!


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

How much ABG should I get for a 10g tank? 

A 20g?


----------



## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I'd say 1 gallon of ABG per 10 gallons of tank space is sufficient.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?iqwyzj


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

So as far as my "great stuff" background goes...do I want to coat that with the brown silicone and xylene mixture, and then add cocofiber to it to cover it up and make it look brown?

Im also looking for a good source of cork bark if anyone has some...I alreay have a few pieces of mopani wood that I can incorporate into it and Im going to get a few planters to put in there as well. 

Let me know what everyone thinks about all this.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Okay, answered a few of my own questions, one being, I dont need xylene, and two being that I just ordered some cork while shopping for my girlfriend's birthday on amazon. 

So next qustion. 

Im getting some eggcrate. I will also be getting some screening in an order from joshes frogs so I dont have to buy a huge portion. 

Once I have my whole terrain assembled, how deep should I make the false bottom? 

Should I fill the area under the eggcrate with hydroton? 

Any advice for adding drainage points? I am already drilling the bottom of the tank for that "overflow" design from the water fall to my planted tank...but I will obviously need another for just draining the false bottom completely. (Im planning at this point to have my water feature completely sealed off from the rest of the tank)


----------



## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

I cut 1&1/4 inch pvc pucks to put under my egg crate & for water removal I silicone one end of a piece of aquarium tube (air line) to the tank base and at the other end (a few inch's above the top of the substrate) I insert a 1 inch piece of ridged tube (like old school under gravel filters had) so when the water level started to get close to the egg crate I can attach a long piece of aquarium air line to siphon out the water. You don't need hydroton under the egg crate as the purpose of the false bottom is just to keep standing water from coming in contact with the substrate (it breaks down very quickly when submerged in water)


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Thank you bristles...so a 1 1/4" false bottom will be good enough? 

And then just siphoning out h2o when it gets close to the ABG?

Thanks again.


----------



## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

That's what I do, misting devises also have a difficult time with water that is used as in planted tank water ( but I think your idea is very cool kinda like a salt water riparium


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

I have decided to go with a small t5 fixture, should add some warmth for securities sake so I dont go too low. 

In addition, Im now looking at just going with a mist king...any disadvantages to getting the cheapest model? Seems like there are tons of options, and I dont know what any of them mean. Definitely want to save some money, but at the same time, will do what I have to do to ensure that the frogs are properly cared for. SO the mist system will not be run off of the planted tank, only the water feature. 

I think I will get a small shallow plastic dish, cut a hole in it, set a depth of about 1" with the overflow, and then have that water feature separate from the false bottom h2o level. The two will not be connected. I will however leave a line from the false bottom (Air hose?) so that I can drain it...or is it a better idea just to get the tank drilled. Im going to have to drill the tank once anyways for the water feature "overflow"...so its not that big of a deal to pay for another small hole. 

Let me know what everyone thinks, thanks for the help again.


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I've never used a mist system but from what I've read you want them to use a separate reservoir of ro water so the mist heads don't get clogged, you don't want them hooked into any tank water.

If you have a water feature it won't be a problem to have it connected to the reservoir of water in your false bottom. It wont' hurt it, either, to be separate if you want them at different levels.

If you can drill another hole to make emptying the false bottom easier I'd say go for it! A plastic line would probably work, too, just make sure it doesn't get constricted via expanding great stuff or something like that.


----------



## sjaakdaak (Mar 19, 2012)

Just make, very, very sure that the drain can't clog up. With only 3.5 gph you'll need three hours to drown your frogs when/if that happens. I've had a similar setup with small tanks linked with small diameter pipes. Something got stuck half way the setup which consisted of five tanks. The "off stream" three had their contents pumped into the first two. That of course meant that in the end I had two filled tanks, the content of three on the floor and three tanks with dead fish on the dry bottom. Not nice.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Man, that sound terrible. 

I am going to keep the water feature separate, so the bottom will have water beneath the fake bottom, and the water feature will just be a dish placed on the top of the substrate (so that it is level with the top of the substrate). 

The drain will be fairly large, but have eggcrate over the top of it - so no worries about frogs getting through, but at the same time, very hard to plug. Ill keep an eye on it, this is going right next to my bedroom door - so Ill be able to see every time I enter or leave the room.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

How do people suggest using cork?

Im going with a 20g, I have my great stuff, I have brown silicone without any anti mold etc, I have eco earth or whatever to cover it, and I plan on inserting some planters for pots.

Now I also have a flat of cork bark. Planning on ordering another though, this thing looks super cool. I feel bad breaking it up almost, which is why I ask. 

Anyone have suggestions about how to make the stuff blend in naturally? 

Thanks


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I've never used the flats, I take rounds (or pieces of them) and break them up. It gives it a more natural / uneven look imho. With a flat you could just attach it to the back wall of the tank and pin stuff into it


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Maybe I will try breaking this up. 

Any problems with using bones in a terrarium?

There is a pretty picked over skeleton that I have a cool idea to use parts of. 

Could I soak them in bleach, and then bake them?

I would soak them in prime, so that the bleach would also be neutralized. 

Prime is a product by seachem, and it is safe for use in aquaria both regular and reef...so if its invert safe, I imagine that it is frog safe. 

Thanks


----------



## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

C172Flyer said:


> If you are doing tincs then you probably dont need to heat the tank. Room temp 72 or so is fine for tincs, unless you are keeping in a colder area of the house.


my house can get down to the low 50's at night (I like sleeping in the cold) and never had much of an issue with my tinctorius (for you skysdale). 

I even, unwittingly, kept my frogs in a room that stayed under 60 degrees the entire day, for almost 2 months, and still had no issue, besides a noticable decrease in activity and diet. But that changed as soon as I moved them to a warmer part of the house


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> my house can get down to the low 50's at night (I like sleeping in the cold) and never had much of an issue with my tinctorius (for you skysdale).
> 
> I even, unwittingly, kept my frogs in a room that stayed under 60 degrees the entire day, for almost 2 months, and still had no issue, besides a noticable decrease in activity and diet. But that changed as soon as I moved them to a warmer part of the house


This is great for getting them to stop breeding!


----------



## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> This is great for getting them to stop breeding!


who said I wanted them to breed? Any eggs I get go to the freezer


----------



## ibytencode (Mar 25, 2012)

Based on my questions on water fixtures in a 55 gallon tank, putting a waterfall or drip wall can potentially cause the substrate to continually be saturated with water which isn't healthy for the frogs. 

To quote Ed from http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/80827-now-what.html

_"Even in larger enclosures water features can be problematic since you have to be able to prevent oversaturation of the substrates which can be a significant negative for the frogs and the plants. It has been at least anecdotally linked to significant health issues with the frogs including the potential for lesions on the feet and legs (and possibly mycobacterial infections) see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/78657-terribilis-foot-rot.html#post696487 . The problems with the water features comes from splashing and/or wicking of water up and out of the water feature. The dendrobatids found in the hobby do not need a water feature (some of the Hyloxalus are streamside dwellers). Most dendrobatids will be fine with a small depression in one corner mimicking a pool or puddle (since some will use it for tadpole deposition). "_

Since this question was posed on a larger 55 gallon, I might rethink the idea of a water feature in a 10 gallon.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Anyone with opinions on the bones?

Im doing an 20g at this point. 

Water feature will be a small puddle...the only thing is that I am going to have a 3.5 gph pump (I dont know if any of you realize how truly tiny this is) making a very small waterfall. 

I want to slant my substrate from one end high, down to the puddle on the otherside. 

Any recommendations on a mister? 

Thanks for the help


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Specificially between mistking and exoterra monsoon...which one is better for what I am doing?

I currently have a joshes frog order going...and I dont think that I want to spend $200 on the version of the mistking that they have on that site.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Bump - anyone?


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Bones: No idea.
Mister: Hand + a spray bottle (that's all I've ever used). Sorry I can't offer help on either of these things.
Waterfall: sounds fun. I have a little stream running through my viv to a puddle but it's so overgrown with java moss that I can't see it.


----------



## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

Can't imagine bones (if clean ) would be an issue as things die in the rain forest. That said I would monitor closely for mold & bad odors. I have a number of tanks, one with a water fall (lots of splashing but low volume) & I use a hand sprayer on a regular (not every single day) basis. I've had no negative issues with excess moisture. From what I've read the auto misters are used by folks with who have large numbers of tanks


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

bristles said:


> Can't imagine bones (if clean ) would be an issue as things die in the rain forest.


Yah. And thousands if not millions of specialized species devoted to nothing but break them down.


Jake


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Sorry I havent been on for a while, life has been hectic and hard recently. 

Now Im back, and got a big part of what I will need from joshsfrogs yesterday in the mail. 

Now just waiting on a 20g tank, some egg crate, some aquarium gravel. 

Yesterday I got:

2 bags of ABG
2 bags almond leaves
1 substrate barrier
Another piece of cork bark
3 pieces of grape root
some spagnum moss 
1 fogger - Im going to have to send this back, I thought it was the one that you ran externally with a resivoir, but its not. 

Going to just get a spray bottle now it looks like. 

Also got a t5 light from aquatraders.com

The bones will be boiled, bleached, baked, and soaked in prime. They shouldnt smell at that point, and should be completely sterile. 

Just need to order a new fogger now. 

Also got a behind the scenes tour at the Shedd aquarium, and got to see where they are breeding mantellas! Super cool stuff, lots of neat frogs. And tons of tads!


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

I now have the tank and the new external fogger with a resivoir. 

Its the reptifogger from zoomed. 

The only issue is the tube for the fog is pretty thick (about 1" dia).

How should I get this into my tank? Im considering drilling a hole in the back. 

I have a fake skull, and I am planning on half burrying it into the background. A hole in the back of the skull could line up with a hole in the glass - where the tube would come through. 

Any thoughts on better ways to do this?

Thanks


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Heres a link to the discussion on drilling the tank - 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/85120-drilling-aquarium.html#post751544


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Got some lace rock, and will be ordering some Seiryu (fancy aquarium aquascaping rock) for my 2.5gph "tricklefall".

Along with this is coming some small manzi wood pieces to use as "roots" in the background, a Vanilla planifolia, and some other common viv plant cuttings. 

Im getting so close I cant wait - Even though right now Im figuring that I will have the whole thing built and planted around christmas, frogs shortly thereafter (need to seed viv, and get some cultures rolling for a month or so)

Will be posting photos here soon as stuff picks up...the false bottom is in - but wont post any pics till the greatstuff background is in.


----------



## SteveR (Jul 26, 2012)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> Heres a link to the discussion on drilling the tank -
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/85120-drilling-aquarium.html#post751544


Im expecting a drill bit today or tomorrow. (1-3/4" bit, 1" bulkhead).. we will see how that goes. Will it be a disaster? A Success? Place your bets! I plan to drill near the top of the tank and snake the water inlet hose down the side into the false bottom. (Will be hidden by cork bark). Hose to the top of the waterfall will go horizontally across the top back edge of th tank... again - I will have to hide it.

I didnt want to drill below waterline - that sort of opens up a new layer of complexity.. keeping it watertight - being unable to 'disconnect' the tank from the pump easily etc. I am using the bulkhead as a simple 'access port' for snaking some flexible tubing, maybe a wire for an internal fan.

I got a couple extra quick connectors, I'd like to be able to quickly disconnect and move the tank if needed and keep it as 'seperatable' from the pump and stand as possible. So - quick connects/valves at the pump as well as on the back of the tank.


----------



## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Were you wanting to use LEDs for heat? They make LOUSY heaters.


----------



## SteveR (Jul 26, 2012)

BrianWI said:


> Were you wanting to use LEDs for heat? They make LOUSY heaters.


LED make fine heaters.. they call them LASERs. 

ba-da-bum.


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

SteveR said:


> Im expecting a drill bit today or tomorrow. (1-3/4" bit, 1" bulkhead).. we will see how that goes. Will it be a disaster? A Success? Place your bets! I plan to drill near the top of the tank and snake the water inlet hose down the side into the false bottom. (Will be hidden by cork bark). Hose to the top of the waterfall will go horizontally across the top back edge of th tank... again - I will have to hide it.
> 
> I didnt want to drill below waterline - that sort of opens up a new layer of complexity.. keeping it watertight - being unable to 'disconnect' the tank from the pump easily etc. I am using the bulkhead as a simple 'access port' for snaking some flexible tubing, maybe a wire for an internal fan.
> 
> I got a couple extra quick connectors, I'd like to be able to quickly disconnect and move the tank if needed and keep it as 'seperatable' from the pump and stand as possible. So - quick connects/valves at the pump as well as on the back of the tank.


I like the sound of this - I have to get in 2 airline tubes (one for pump inlet, one for pump outlet) down to the bottom and top for a small water feature. 

I also have a fogger line that I need to get to the bottom of the tank - not sure if I will drill yet - still trying to keep brainstorming the best way, Ive never drilled glass before but it seems pretty straight forward. 

Think drilling is the best way to go at this point, but obviously would rather not. 

What are you going to do with the extra space in the hole you drill - I know it wont fit perfectly, and all other openings to my viv will be very securely sealed. 



BrianWI said:


> Were you wanting to use LEDs for heat? They make LOUSY heaters.


No - I have said LED's to keep heat down. 

Now because of frog choice I will use T5 - slightly heat the tank, but not too much as I wont be heating the tank with a heatpad/rheostat combo unless temps go below mid 70's which I doubt they will with a completely sealed tank.


----------



## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

SteveR said:


> LED make fine heaters.. they call them LASERs.
> 
> ba-da-bum.



LOL! Unless you want to cut one in half...


----------



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

On topic people - by the end of the month I will have everything I need to start building the viv.

Also hoping to order some books on the care and breeding of darts - feel free to recommend some before I start seriously going at this. Want to have a few books under my belt by then. 

Im thinking right now I will have a pair of D. tinctorius "cobalt"

Any opinions one way or another on greatstuff backgrounds?

I know that I am going that route - but here is my question. 

Do you think that I should cover the sides as well? I kinda want to just to have some more room for planters on the walls.


----------

