# Setting up a growout tank - go with all substrate layers?



## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

I've seen grow out tanks setup with only sphagnum moss and leaf litter over the drainage layer, but after recently reading about someone having sever frog health issues with a coconut fiber leaf layer setup I'm wondering if it wouldn't be healthier for me to go the full monty and do the substrate topped by a layer of sphagnum moss and then the leaf litter? I am planning on seeding the (10 gallon) tank with both springtails and isopods and then recovering them (hopefully) after I'm done with the grow out tank or simply leaving it up as a hospital tank.

Are there any negatives to using the full setup in a grow out tank? And yes I was getting tadpoles...but now I'm getting juvenile frogs.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Hi! 

If you're planning on keeping and not tearing down the grow out tank I would go with a drainage layer. If it is a temporary tank that you are going to tear down an rebuild in a few months then just sphagnum and some plant clippings should be fine, it will be easier to tear down and clean then. Quarantine tanks should be torn down and disinfected between occupants.

If these are your only frogs or if you are not going to introduce them to a tank with other, older frogs then there is no reason that they need a grow out tank, you can stick 'em right into there permanent home.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

BrainBug said:


> Hi!
> 
> If you're planning on keeping and not tearing down the grow out tank I would go with a drainage layer. If it is a temporary tank that you are going to tear down an rebuild in a few months then just sphagnum and some plant clippings should be fine, it will be easier to tear down and clean then. Quarantine tanks should be torn down and disinfected between occupants.
> 
> If these are your only frogs or if you are not going to introduce them to a tank with other, older frogs then there is no reason that they need a grow out tank, you can stick 'em right into there permanent home.



Hmm that's a good point about the hospital tank, if I ever have to use it then it will need to be completely disinfected ie everything thrown out and new put in. 

As for the vivarium...it should be done in a month or so thus the 10 gallon tank which I had on hand.

Plus these are very young frogs, I wouldn't want to put them in a 18x18x24 enclosure. I need to monitor how they are feeding and growing.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

They would be fine in an 18 x 18 x 24. As long as you can see them you can monitor growth and feeding. It's really not that much more surface area then a 10G.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

BrainBug said:


> They would be fine in an 18 x 18 x 24. As long as you can see them you can monitor growth and feeding. It's really not that much more surface area then a 10G.


Except for the fact that its a bare exo-terra viv with alot of boxes sitting inside while I wait for my order from NE Herp to get in so I can start building it


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Kudaria said:


> Except for the fact that its a bare exo-terra viv with alot of boxes sitting inside while I wait for my order from NE Herp to get in so I can start building it


They'll love the boxes. Haven't you heard? Darts are like little panhandling homeless people. Throw in a couple cigarette butts and some empty beer bottles and you have yourself a 'future biotope'

Just kidding, good on you brother (or sister.)


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

BrainBug said:


> They'll love the boxes. Haven't you heard? Darts are like little panhandling homeless people. Throw in a couple cigarette butts and some empty beer bottles and you have yourself a 'future biotope'
> 
> Just kidding, good on you brother (or sister.)


LOL I thought for a second that you were going to tell me they were like little cats. Lord knows mine ignore any toys I've bought them in favor of boxes..and q-tips lately.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I have some growout containers that are just sterilite containers with sphag, leaf litter, and microfauna. These don't hold up as well as tanks with soil and plants, so they need to be cleaned out after a few months. BUT it is easier to see how all your frogs are doing!


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> I have some growout containers that are just sterilite containers with sphag, leaf litter, and microfauna. These don't hold up as well as tanks with soil and plants, so they need to be cleaned out after a few months. BUT it is easier to see how all your frogs are doing!


I think that is the part I'm having difficulty imagining, how do the microfauna do with just sphagnum moss and leaf litter? I want to encourage them to hunt around for different types of food from the get go in an effort to make their environment more mentally engaging for them.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

The microfauna fares pretty well. Large ones like orange isos will help to clean up poop, and small ones like springtails help keep fungi in check and also provide for foraging material for the frogs. I'm constantly resupplying them with springtails however, since the containers I use don't have a deep enough sphag layer to hold a self-sustaining population.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Well here is my answer. If it's a growout tank I'd use the substrate that I think can support the most microfauna so the little frogs can eat whenever they want and the smaller weaker frogs that might not get as many flies can be sure to eat enough food.
If it's a quarantine tank or "hospital" tank I'd build it as cold and hard as possible so it's as easy as possible to clean and disinfect in case your qt frogs have some parasite that you are going to treat for. As in an empty container that you can put a moist paper towel in the bottom of for substrate.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

For grow outs I use a layer of turface, then a layer of leaf litter.
Done, easy, easy to clean up and re sterilize the tub between batches 
Micro fauna does very well, and it's really easy to keep an eye on everything


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Interesting. Why turface over sphag?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Because it doesn't become uniformly saturated, it's reusable after a bleach bath, and there MAY...be a calcium particle benefit, albeit slight. It also works well to promote springtail populations when combined with leaf litter, and is a hell of a lot cheaper than quality sphagnum. 

I started using it for grow outs last year, and I really liked it, so have just kept on using it.


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

Ditto what frog party said, I was under the impression it gave essentially some supplementation to the springtails, and would promote a virtual constant food source. It's what I planned on having for my grow out tank.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Interesting... Where do you get it from? Is it all the same size? The pictures I find online show really small particles


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

gturmindright said:


> Well here is my answer. If it's a growout tank I'd use the substrate that I think can support the most microfauna so the little frogs can eat whenever they want and the smaller weaker frogs that might not get as many flies can be sure to eat enough food.
> If it's a quarantine tank or "hospital" tank I'd build it as cold and hard as possible so it's as easy as possible to clean and disinfect in case your qt frogs have some parasite that you are going to treat for. As in an empty container that you can put a moist paper towel in the bottom of for substrate.


For right now it's a grow out tank that will have to house them for up to two months depending on how quickly I can build the permanent vivarium. With that in mind I'll just go full out on it, in the future though it seems that I should probably just invest in a few plastic (sterlite?) containers for quarantine/hospital setup.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

frogparty said:


> Because it doesn't become uniformly saturated, it's reusable after a bleach bath, and there MAY...be a calcium particle benefit, albeit slight. It also works well to promote springtail populations when combined with leaf litter, and is a hell of a lot cheaper than quality sphagnum.
> 
> I started using it for grow outs last year, and I really liked it, so have just kept on using it.


Do you use that in your main tanks as well? And that looks alot like the stuff that Pumilo posted on how to make out of clay? Also, if I wanted to use it in conjunction with substrate I'd just go from the bottom up substrate, turface and then leaf litter? Also what impaction risks do you think it will carry?


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Amazon.com: 2 Quarts Turface MVP: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Is this the right one in case I want to order some?


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

Thats the stuff but it's less expensive if you get it at a john deere store.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

Fantastica said:


> Thats the stuff but it's less expensive if you get it at a john deere store.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


Seriously? Why would they sell it at a John Deere store? Or do you mean a farm supply store? I'm in the city, the John Deere place sells huge tractors and backhoes from what I can see.

Ok the local Southern States doesn't have it, I'm asking now on the VA Froggers group. Maybe someone where will know where I can purchase some locally.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Probably talking about John Deere Landscapes. Used to be Lesco.


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

gturmindright said:


> Probably talking about John Deere Landscapes. Used to be Lesco.


Ah that I can find, but I can't find Turface in their list of carried vendors? Is it going under a different name?


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## hypnoticaquatic (Dec 19, 2012)

why not just use growstones? Amazon.com: Growstones Secret GPGC1.25CF 1.25-Cubic Feet Growstone Hydroponic Substrate: Patio, Lawn & Garden same thing as whats listed here 



. that vs turface is much more for your $ and lighter if u need to ever move a tank might not need to break it down due to weight, just a thought. most hydroponic shops or greenhouses will carry it so not hard to find.


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

hypnoticaquatic said:


> why not just use growstones? Amazon.com: Growstones Secret GPGC1.25CF 1.25-Cubic Feet Growstone Hydroponic Substrate: Patio, Lawn & Garden same thing as whats listed here New England Herpetoculture LLC - Substrate - Vivarium. that vs turface is much more for your $ and lighter if u need to ever move a tank might not need to break it down due to weight, just a thought. most hydroponic shops or greenhouses will carry it so not hard to find.


The calcium benefit would be lost, but for sure a good alternative if covered with lots of leaf litter. Might be easier to find as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

I just ordered the 2 qt off Amazon for now, I've got a week before going up to NYC for 5 days vacation/wedding/honeymoon. 

My setup is interesting I suspect and based around those five days and the needs of the young frogs during them. That's one reason I'm going with a full tank setup and the reason I'm more interested in the turface as an incidental calcium supplement for springtails and isopods because that's what they are going to be eating while I'm away.

I've actually set them up in a 10 gallon tank in a 29 gallon tank. The ten gallon tank will have a screen top and the 29 a partial glass top. The 29gallon tank is filled with about 4 inches of water and has a water pump and water heater in it set to 76 degrees.

This is for two reason's, we vary our house temperatures by quite a bit 65-70 over the day and in order to ensure they have a high humidity that isn't wholly dependent on them being sprayed twice a day. i know the full tank setup will also help with that if at least a inch of water is left in the three inch deep drainage layer.

Right now their going with plastic plants until the plant I ordered this weekend from NEHerps comes in that can go right in with them (vice the plants I picked up from Home Depot and then read they needed to sit for 6-8 weeks).

Honestly I'm a bit anxious now because the snow storm delayed shipping and the order from NEHerps that was to arrive Sat is instead coming in tomorrow. I'll just hope that the springtails and isopods I ordered are fine if not i'll scrounge around locally for some.

Right now the only thing in the tank is the three inch layer of hydroballs and two layers of fiberglass screen netting. Vivarium substrate, sphagnum moss and leaf litter will be arriving Tue along with my turface order from Amazon. So Tue night i'll be finishing setting up the tank and the juvenile red galacs are arriving Wed.

Currently air temp in the 10 is a rock steady 74.8 with humidity just above 80 % (I need to get a better humidity reader than the analogue one that came with my Exo-Terra set). I know that setting up the tank inside and misting everything down will likely raise this but I do have a bit of a range and can widen the open area for more ventilation on the 29 gallon.

Heh it's interesting looking, since I put Methylene Blue into the water they have a nice blue moat around them.

Right now their light timer is the same one as for my betta's so they will be getting 8 hours of 7000k led between noon and 8 pm and indirect sunlight before that.

Can anyone think of anything I've forgotten? This is not the best timing but hopefully if everything arrives alive on Tue they should be setup just fine to survive 5 days without me.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

There is NO turface here. So I wonder: Turface is Akadama?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Similar to akadama..... I know IVe seen some killer Japanese set ups that use akadama exclusively as a substrate layer


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## Kudaria (Dec 24, 2013)

hypnoticaquatic said:


> why not just use growstones? Amazon.com: Growstones Secret GPGC1.25CF 1.25-Cubic Feet Growstone Hydroponic Substrate: Patio, Lawn & Garden same thing as whats listed here New England Herpetoculture LLC - Substrate - Vivarium. that vs turface is much more for your $ and lighter if u need to ever move a tank might not need to break it down due to weight, just a thought. most hydroponic shops or greenhouses will carry it so not hard to find.


I don't think Growstone is the same as the clay additive NEHerps sells, their description mentions their's is arcillite, a calcinated clay product, but I don't see that mentioned for the Growstone.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

the growstones are made from glass I believe. It's like foamed or fulminated or something


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I wouldn't use GrowStones in place of Turface. Growstones are pretty abrasive. If the frogs get under the leaf litter (and they will) the chances of them getting scratched up is pretty high.

Growstones work great as a drainage layer, but it should have a screen over the top of it.

For my growouts I use a thin layer of sphagnum topped with a combination of 3 leaf litters, some plant cuttings, 2-4 condiment cups/film canisters and maybe some wood if it is a tall grow out. Rubbermaid makes a 30 qt. tall container I am liking for holding sub adult pumilio.


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## hypnoticaquatic (Dec 19, 2012)

Kudaria said:


> I don't think Growstone is the same as the clay additive NEHerps sells, their description mentions their's is arcillite, a calcinated clay product, but I don't see that mentioned for the Growstone.


i was only giving it as an example for drainage only which is the same thing as the NEHERP LDL (just below the clay listing) with another substrate on top, also using a filter sock/mesh bag works great to fill then put down as a base. that vs clay balls = win/win as its more bang for your $ and lighter weight if you ever have to move the tank.


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