# Paludarium wet wall and land mass questions



## 3kidsandatank (Apr 13, 2020)

This is my first post ever on any blog/chat-like set up, so I hope I get things in here right. I still haven't figured out how to thank people who have left some of the invaluable reading material (I started this build process by spending hours and hours reading this site). The vision is to set up a paludarium to make my 7 year old happy with a few aquarium fish, my 11 year happy with the dream of an eventual dart frog inhabitant (and my spouse too, really wants dart frogs), my 13 year old happy with cool plants she can search for from South American tropical areas and myself nostalgic and happy with a recreation of a mini-piece of Amazon rain forest, where my dad used to spend a lot of time as a tropical botanist and I have fond memories walking along water lines near looking for dart frogs (they would hang out near the gasket leaks where the water lines were tied together near where I lived). . . So that is how we came to purchase and investigate outfitting the exo-terra 18 by 18 by 36” tall Paludarium. So we can have it all, water, understory, and canopy, in miniature.

These are the burning questions I really need help to answer and haven’t found a clear process of in any posts. It may be better to post each question separately, but to keep my story together, and since it all has to do with one build project, I will keep the questions together. I hope that is okay:

1.	I will have an aquarium filter pump creating water flow in the tank/aquarium section and my plan was to have it out-take down the back wall/corner of the paludarium, "waterfall" style since I have to have water returning into the tank anyway, I might as well not hide it in a tube. I built a mini-concrete waterfall using information I found on this site (which is a story of an epic crumbling failure) and then I created a series of drylok foam mini-boulders using information from this site that are pretty good looking, though relative to my crumbling concrete failure, my standards might be pretty low. I tacked my boulders into place and forgot about them not being installed, so when I turned the tank on its other side to work on the cork panels, about an hour of gravity made that whole waterfall section fall, and it is wide open for a third try!). Now for my third try, I wonder if I can extend the moisture benefits (it is a benefit, right?) by extending the water outtake to be across the top of the whole back wall instead of being constrained to a six-inch waterfall (then I might be able to intersperse some of my geodes and cool real rocks from Brazil that I have into the wet wall design, but I digress). I have seen beautiful drip wall examples on this site, but this would be more water volume than a drip, and most of the examples I found on this board seem to be on a timer, which implies it only has running water some of the time. *Has anyone made a wet wall that would be flushed with running water all day long and had things actually grow happily in it?* I hope it helps that the aquarium will be there to catch/contain/supply the water.
2.	If yes on the wet wall idea, I plan to make it from tree fern panels and sphagnum moss and need to decide if the best way to install them around my waterfall stones. This leads me to ask these questions: *If tree fern chunks are adhered to glass with silicon and has super-tightly stuffed sphagnum around the pieces, is it enough to wick water down and across the wall, similar to what I have seen people do on this site with sphagnum between cork pieces? Can I extend the panel longevity by putting a layer of water wicking geotextile material next to the glass under the fern panels or would this wick too much water straight down the wall* (it seems like a good idea, but I might be overthinking it)? I am hoping to hear stories about real, flowing water wet walls and plant survival. 
3.	Finally, to make the terrestrial area palatable to future dart frogs, how deep does the land mass/substrate have to be? I didn’t want to pay for the little black platform recommended by exo-terra, which seemed small and ugly anyway, so I built egg crate platforms (a-la u-tube examples), covered them in screen, built up the sides a bit with spray foam/coco fiber approximately to have a rim of one inch (the height of the exo-terra platform sides) and plan to put ABG mix or something on top of the screens for frog happiness. Several people mention several ground layers of something in their vivariums. Is an inch of just ABG mix material (over the screens, over the egg crate) and some leaf litter okay? Here are my photos of the land areas, I am wanting to provide more land area (with the hopes of making a pair of small frogs happy in the future) and I am struggling with terrace placement. I have installed my “main” platform, but is it better to overlap platforms (black foam edges in the picture)








making a sort of shallow cave underneath the larger one, or should I use my smaller terrace piece (foam and coco fiber/smaller circle), which has no area overlap.








It was surprisingly hard to get photos while simultaneously holding the potential terraces in place, so sorry if these are slightly fuzzy. The third photo is a view from the front.








The set up is missing its highest level curvy branch which comes more or less straight out and my homemade fake vines and the maybe waterfall, which would be in the black fabric corner on the right. The tubes painted like tree bark are hiding the mechanical stuff - or will be once the tank is fully planted.
4.	I used pond safe great stuff to stick the cork to glass but now have read in some of these posts that I should have coated the glass with silicone first. Does this mean it will all fall off? If it is as stuck on to the glass as it is stuck on to my wrists above where the gloves ended, it seems like it should be good right? (I did clean the glass with alcohol before I started spraying and only half of the utube videos pre-siliconed their sides, which made me think it was aesthetic and not structural). How can you tell if your background is too heavy for the spray foam? The edges will have a good layer of silicone to adhere coco fibers, will that be enough to assist structurally?
5.	_Do I really have to rough up the spray foam before I cover it with silicone and coco fiber because I like the look of the rounded blobs I made?_ Never mind, I answered this myself by siliconing two pieces of spray foam with skin intact and two that had been shaved. So, yes, I will have to sand/rough up all that spray foam! The former I could pull apart with my hands, the latter will be stuck together for all time. There was a big difference in strength of the bond. Again, absolutely-definitely-yes to the roughing up your spray foam surface to make silicone stick. 
6.	And last but not least, I could only find clearly aquarium safe silicone in small bottles – there was too much back and forth on this site for me to feel like GE II or GE I was safe since there were adamant stories about both and every tube of 100% silicone seemed to not disclose additives when I was label reading at Home Depot. Only tiny squeeze bottles of Loctite and DAP had the “aquarium safe” label. I have a local pond/landscaping supply store that sells “fish safe” black "caulk" for ponds, but it is not 100% silicone. Has anyone used pond caulk and not killed their future inhabitants? I would much prefer black or brown colored something and much larger tubes because it is hard to get the clear silicone looking great and I am on my fourth small bottle. The cost of the aquarium safe tiny bottles is adding up!

Anyway, I am at the point of putting things in the tank and getting anxious to start sourcing and sourcing some micro orchids and Amazonian plants for the water and the land areas. Since I have now rebuilt several pieces several times, I am hoping someone can reassure me that this all won’t fall apart and might make a survivable frog habitat – and we do prefer dart frogs to the possibly more appropriate vertically adept tree frogs in our structure because dart frogs are awake in the daytime. . .but if the set up really is all wrong to have dart frogs be happy, I will definitely change that game plan on animals (and just be happy with mini orchids, bromeliads, and some tiny Amazonian fish). We will be putting wood below water level in each corner to create islands of safety and some branch escape ladders for anything that might fall in and want to get out. Thanks for any help.


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## 3kidsandatank (Apr 13, 2020)

Trying again with photos:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kVnwuc4VejDtBp1U6

or maybe this:









Hope that works, I think photos will help with your answers -and I definitely hope someone has some answers to lend!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

3kidsandatank said:


> make a survivable frog habitat – and we do prefer dart frogs to the possibly more appropriate vertically adept tree frogs in our structure because dart frogs are awake in the daytime. . .but if the set up really is all wrong to have dart frogs be happy, I will definitely change that game plan on animals (and just be happy with mini orchids, bromeliads, and some tiny Amazonian fish). We will be putting wood below water level in each corner to create islands of safety and some branch escape ladders for anything that might fall in and want to get out. Thanks for any help.


Especially with kids involved, who really don't need to deal with catastrophic failure (i.e. dead animals, complete viv rebuild needed), I would strongly recommend two enclosures: one aquarium (for fish, and possibly submerged plants if you want a challenge), and one vivarium without standing or moving water (for plants and dart frogs).

This is best for the health of the frogs (who don't need standing water, flowing water, pumps to get caught in, fish to share pathogens with, etc. and are challenging enough to keep without these unnecessary extras) and the health of the fish (maintaining water quality in an aquarium can be a problem without adding leaching of organics and spilled vitamin supplements from substrate, dead fruit flies, drowned frogs, deposited tadpoles, etc.), and the sanity of the keepers (who, even if they have extensive experience with aquariums, and with plants, and with frogs, are typically loath to add these all together in one difficult-to-maintain system).


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## 3kidsandatank (Apr 13, 2020)

So I guess the fantasy of a mini-biome, where the fish are eating fruit flies and springtails that escape the frogs and the water movement and filter help keep everything clean and remove waste and keep up high humidity, etc. . . is a fantasy. I hear that. 

Okay- so, I have this partially built tank that will probably not eventually contain frogs, but will hopefully have some really spectacular plants that like high humidity. Don't suppose you would be able to answer the other questions?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

3kidsandatank said:


> Don't suppose you would be able to answer the other questions?


I don't keep paludariums, or really do any involved builds, so I personally won't be able to fill in the details; I'm in this for the frogs. We all really do want you to succeed, though, and there are many experienced builders here who will be able to help. 

In the meantime, do consider searching the archives here -- there are years and years of experience there, and many build threads trying to address the same concerns you have. So, in the search bar on the top of the page, enter "drip wall", "tree fern", or whatever, and read all the threads. There are questions that you didn't know you needed to ask, and reading threads is a great way to figure them out.


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## 3kidsandatank (Apr 13, 2020)

First, thank you for your response and the many responses you have given others with great advice, which I have read. Please, let me reassure you that I have spent many, many hours reading the dendroboard archives, though it was indeed after I had purchased the paludarium, that I started researching how to put it together. (In one case it was two days of reading that convinced me to go forward with my concrete over my hot glued together foam rocks which ended catastrophically. . . though more reading helped me land on drylok over pink foam, which was more successful.) I promise I have been looking in the archives. 

I haven't completely let go of the frog keeping dream for the Paludarium. If I were choosing between fish and frogs, frogs would win. . .and all but one family member agrees with that plan (and he is 7, so majority will probably rule). . . BUT I have to make the set up that we have invested in work for that. . . and we truly don't have room in the house for a second large glass tank anyway. This means I have a tall paludarium that has to have enough water in the bottom for the already purchased fish tank water pump thing/filter to work (at least 6 inches of water), or have no water in the tank at all, which I think would lead to lack of humidity and cause other problems. 
You are saying that even if the bottom of the paludarium were filled with branches, and we kept only frogs (no fish) a dart frog would not thrive in the upper reaches of a hopefully fully planted paludarium tank? Even with custom made terraces providing a couple square feet of "land" surface? If I backed down from a dart frog and embraced an active at night tree frog, which at least we would see sometimes in the wintertime if bedtime is 8pm, would the tree frog not prosper in this set up?

I really could use advise on the living terraces and platforms. When frog keepers build their egg crate islands, how deep does the substrate/soil have to be for happy frogs? It is this question, along with the flowing water wall questions that I just haven't been able to find answers to. . .which is why I thought asking for help was appropriate. I genuinely want to make this work. Though it is also true that I am also genuinely unskilled at searching through the archives and my google search method may have missed something, because I know so little that I might not be searching for the right key words, so I am happy to go back and do more reading if you point the way?


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> This is my first post ever on any blog/chat-like set up, so I hope I get things in here right.


Less text. More white space. Pictures or diagrams can help.

Less text.



> 6. And last but not least I could only find clearly aquarium safe silicone in small bottles


Huh? I mean, WTF?!??! Try this: https://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=20059&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5vbl8Jn_6AIVCr7ACh08QQTlEAQYASABEgIHdPD_BwE

It doesn't really keep more than a year so don't buy more than say 1 tube more than you need. Cause you might need that one more tube. Ha ha.



> I am hoping someone can reassure me that this all won’t fall apart and might make a survivable frog habitat





> I used pond safe great stuff to stick the cork to glass


Yeah that ain't gonna work. Reassurance would be a lie.

Good luck, man. *Don't buy any animals for a while.* This shakedown cruise is gonna be a long one. Look that term up if you don't know it. Embrace it, live it, *do it*. The bright side? If it hurts bad enough, you will NEVER forget it.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

18X18X36 may seem to someone fairly new, to be a large / largish size enclosure.

It really isn't. I'd call it a medium.

And as such, is not conducive to multiple species. At all. 

The good news is, that you can house a couple more individual frogs in it.

Buy another tank - for the fish. Or the geckoes. You'll be glad you did after a year or so.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Philsuma hit the nail on the head. The perspective of space, sure that tank 'looks big', but to the actual small fauna the span of surpassing its measure might take a handful of seconds, a dash and a clamber. 

The thing is, the frogs+fish dont live in a miniature biosphere with everything scaled down and its inhabitants kind of well, dollhoused together. 

It may strike familiar notes of an aesthetic and the animals seem small too, but if you look at the most successful vivs, they will be underpopulated, and this is with the same species.

Its the same with the hope that different animals in unnaturally close, continuous proxy will
duplicate a utopian ideal of ecological links and purpose. Especially if we buy the gear for it, and hear people expounding the virtues of their Nature Slice set up, often who are so enamored with the living picture idea that the health and stress aspects are not recognized, or minimized.

There is alot you can do with that enclosure. Let a species enchant you all, and lead the way. 

Let whatever you choose be the Luckiest, for having such a great team.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Philsuma said:


> 18X18X36 may seem to someone fairly new, to be a large / largish size enclosure.
> 
> It really isn't. I'd call it a medium.


Exo Terra calls their 18 x 18 line 'small', actually.

No, that's not enough space for frogs to thrive. An 18 x 18 footprint is considered minimum for virtually all the novice-friendly species -- they need that floor space for foraging, hiding, microfauna habitat, etc.



3kidsandatank said:


> and we truly don't have room in the house for a second large glass tank anyway.


OK, but then you truly cannot provide optimal conditions for both fish and frogs. I mean, I don't have room for a giant tortoise -- so I don't have one; strong desires have to lose out sometimes.

And no, standing water is not necessary for humidity maintenance. Not at all.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Other discussion boards are happy social meet greet in tone, almost like conversational parties with their animal interests as the theme. 

I know it sounds discouraging, but the truth is, in looking at the photos even more spatial value has been scrunched out by materials mass, by a build structure that has not had its genesis in a well founded goal.

As someone who had these kinds of awkward interactions brick mortar, I would have to say I would only be comfortable recommending animalia wise, Hermit Crabs, along with your plans for lots of nice flora. 

Hermit Crabs that get lucky are far and few between, and every kid can have their own.

Another animal that would be pushed elsewhere are Crested Geckos, but they too require Lateral Dimension. Being arboreal doesnt translate to a vertical tunnel. People say they arent that active in bigger situ, which is incorrect they are, if they have it. Again human perception seems to frame it in an ideological blueprint that isn't how the animal normally utilizes space at all.


I must add that no toil so leal and encompassing as yours is ever lost. If you decide to start over you have experienced an intensive valuable rehearsal. Stick with it.


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## 3kidsandatank (Apr 13, 2020)

Thank you everyone - certainly this thread should have been posted to the beginner section, even though it seemed like a construction question. I realized after reading your answers that the 18 by 36 tanks others mention on the site were all long horizontal set ups, not tall vertical tanks - which would be a big difference in lateral space!

I so appreciate the time that everyone took to respond and I promise we will not "make" a frog live in an inappropriate environment. Maybe this vertical tank will become a fabulous home to tropical plants that can be used in other builds (once we finish renovating our living room and have space for another tank). 

I really did need your direct help to see that I wasn't finding answers in the board for my set up because my set up itself was so wrong for frogs that my questions couldn't be answered (which is an answer in and of itself, very Socratic, no?). 

I will hope to share pictures of a beautiful home for plants eventually(if I figure out that insert photo function). Maybe when it is planted and filled in, an arboreal something might like the space, but I know we are a long way from animals. Thank you again for helping divert a massive dart frog failure. Just because we want them, doesn't mean we should have them (at least not in this tank).


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Personally, I think your badass.

Someday some animals are going to get lucky. Your children certainly are.


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## Rhino (Apr 12, 2019)

If you added substrate, plants and water bowl you could keep a tree frog or two in that enclosure (size appropriate of course) and if you made it a paludarium then you could raise tree frog tadpoles through to metamorphosis.
We don't have access to pdf's in Australia I'm only here for the sweet, sweet vivarium builds.
Looks like you have gone to a bit of effort, don't write it off yet.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> We don't have access to pdf's in Australia


Not to hijack but I gotta ask - it's been a while since I attended to laws elsewhere, but are you allowed to keep any native frogs? I know some are in critical condition due to chytrid, habitat destruction, drought, invasive species, and other threats, but surely some are secure in nature and could tolerate some utilization by Aussies? You do have some very interesting anurans. (And geckoes, skinks, colubrids, elapids, varanids, pygopodids, chelids....ha ha ha sorry.)

cheers


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## kenneth91619 (11 mo ago)

3kidsandatank said:


> So I guess the fantasy of a mini-biome, where the fish are eating fruit flies and springtails that escape the frogs and the water movement and filter help keep everything clean and remove waste and keep up high humidity, etc. . . is a fantasy. I hear that.
> 
> Okay- so, I have this partially built tank that will probably not eventually contain frogs, but will hopefully have some really spectacular plants that like high humidity. Don't suppose you would be able to answer the other questions?


Its not a fantasy! I have been in the aquarium hobby for 14 years and just this year started in the dart frog hobby. Everyone here is quick to shun and put new people into line. They only accept one way of thinking. All hobbies have moved forward with time because of people like you and I. I have a complete mini-biome with fish, shrimp, ramhorn snails and ottocinclus catfish with a pair of ranitomeya chazuta. All three of my walls (back and sides) wick water and are fully covered in Christmas moss. I also have a waterfall as well to boot. No incidents, no deaths, no bs. Trust your gut and experience. The water is also black water and is completely a natural habitat for all aquatic species. These people don't own aquariums they don't know the nitrogen cycle and the don't know plants uptake nutrients and they are too lazy to do a weekly water change. This time next year I will have completed this mini-biome in a large 6ft x 6ft enclosure with redfoot tortoises and parrots. Do alot of research filter out all negative people. They don't understand animals are adaptable and alot of the time become invasive in non native regions as long as basic requirements are met they will thrive. If you need help you can message me.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Since this thread is attracting disparaging and inaccurate generalizations, it is closed.


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