# What dendrobatid species can be appropriately housed in an Insitu enclosure?



## Aphanius (Sep 24, 2021)

Reading through the board, the Insitu brand enclosures seem to be the most highly recommended for keeping dart frogs. However, the current consensus is that the dimensions of the Selva and its derivatives (22x17x24) are too small for terrestrial darts like _Dendrobates _and _Phylobates_. It seems they are popular for _Ranitomeya_, but are there any other groups of dendrobatids that can be these enclosures are appropriate for?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

_Epipedobates anthonyi_ , _Oophaga pumilio_, smaller _Dendrobates tinctorius_ locales (bakhuis)


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

A pair of _Dendrobates leucomelas_, at least the smaller locales/morphs ('Fine Spot'/'Bolivar'), could be suitably housed in a Selva/Amazonia, IMO.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

I know you guys get a little crazy about dims on here but 22X17X24 is close to 40 gallons of volume. To say you can't house any pair of tincs in something that size is getting a little ridiculous IMHO.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

thedudeabides said:


> I know you guys get a little crazy about dims on here but 22X17X24 is close to 40 gallons of volume. To say you can't house any pair of tincs in something that size is getting a little ridiculous IMHO.


There's nothing ridiculous about understanding the difference between volume and dimensions. A 40 gallon tank has a significantly different footprint than a 22x24 enclosure. A 40 gallon tank has a horizontal orientation, allowing for about 36" of ground for larger frogs to hop across - as some frogs like terriblis can make that length in two hops. To put a large frog that can jump 15" in a single bound in an enclosure with limited floor space is just wrong. We stopped judging enclosures by volume when we ditched 10g tanks.

To the OP: Leucs are your best option for dendrobates to inhabit a tank with that footprint. I would even consider a smaller species of auratus like Ancon Hill. But most are going to be too large to have so little floor space.


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## mikestra (Oct 16, 2008)

I keep a pair of O. histrionica Bullseye in an Amazonia, and so far I have not experienced any issues from the relatively small footprint. I will say that it may be tricky when hardscaping and planting to squeeze some of the larger bromeliads in the tank, and in my relatively limited experience with histos (less than a year), the bigger the better when it come to broms. In addition, long horizontally oriented branches are used frequently to traverse from one side of the viv to the other. I've found mine to be quite "arboreal" for lack of a better word, spending most of their time off of the leaf litter unless they are hunting flies.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

JasonE said:


> There's nothing ridiculous about understanding the difference between volume and dimensions. A 40 gallon tank has a significantly different footprint than a 22x24 enclosure. A 40 gallon tank has a horizontal orientation, allowing for about 36" of ground for larger frogs to hop across - as some frogs like terriblis can make that length in two hops. To put a large frog that can jump 15" in a single bound in an enclosure with limited floor space is just wrong. We stopped judging enclosures by volume when we ditched 10g tanks.


With all due respect I never mentioned terribilis in my post. I understand the difference between volume and dimensions and that the footprint between 22X17 and 36X18 are different. That being said I stick by my original statement that any pair of tincs will be fine in a tank that size as they will use every inch of vertical space IME.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Aphanius said:


> are appropriate





Socratic Monologue said:


> suitably





thedudeabides said:


> can't


There's a lot of conceptual space between these three terms, and there are more terms used in discussions like this one that range even farther into the extremes. There are a lot of words spilled here lately trying to tease out the distinctions and gradations between bare minimum housing on one end of the scale and what we should encourage our collective selves to strive for on the other end. @Aphanius seems to want to spend time on the high end of that scale, unless I'm misreading things.

Though I agree that volume isn't the most relevant aspect of enclosure size, inside dimensions on Selvas are 21 x 16 x 22 = 32 gallons.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

thedudeabides said:


> With all due respect I never mentioned terribilis in my post. I understand the difference between volume and dimensions and that the footprint between 22X17 and 36X18 are different. That being said I stick by my original statement that any pair of tincs will be fine in a tank that size as they will use every inch of vertical space IME.


Yes. They will use absolutely every square inch of that space. All dart frogs will. The question isn't whether they'll use the space. The question is if that amount of space is enough. And it's not.

Another to the OP: If dendrobates is your preferred frog then I suggest reaching out to Insitu to see what the cost would be for a larger size (they do customs) or look for something cheaper like a 36x36" exo terra.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

JasonE said:


> The question is if that amount of space is enough. And it's not.


Eh, agree to disagree then. Just out of curiosity what would you say is enough space for a pair of tincs?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Not to speak for @JasonE but I don't keep anything besides _Ranitomeya_ or _Oophaga pumilio_ in anything less than a 36x18" footprint.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

thedudeabides said:


> Eh, agree to disagree then. Just out of curiosity what would you say is enough space for a pair of tincs?





fishingguy12345 said:


> Not to speak for @JasonE but I don't keep anything besides _Ranitomeya_ or _Oophaga pumilio_ in anything less than a 36x18" footprint.


No you feel free to speak for me. I never kept my larger frogs in anything smaller than a 40 breeder. Now I wouldn't keep them in anything smaller than a 36x18. Honestly, I would just find a 36x24" because I know they'll use the height. Also false bottoms and substrate take up a considerable amount of the height when you're talking about an 18" high enclosure. But 36x18 would be my bare minimum size for things like tincs, auratus, and terribilis. My ranitomeya are in a 36x36 exo. I have some benedicta tads here. They'll be going in a 24x18x36 exo.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Perusing old threads is fun for a lot of reasons, including noting the viv size recommendations -- I recall one where a still respected (in the larger herp hobby) keeper was adamant that his breeding of terribs in a 10g was just fine, and there are plenty of other species recommended for 10g fish tanks.

I myself, aside from the occasional upsizing of growing snakes too soon (they can stress in larger enclosures, but hobby-level snake housing for most species is a completely different approach, as the whole enclosure is basically a hide box) have never put animals in an enclosure only to later come to think the enclosure too large. On the contrary -- I'm continuously tearing down vivs to make room for larger ones to move those animals into, and the animals always -- every single time -- seem to change their behavior in positive ways. Each time I upsize enclosures, my thoughts about what is acceptable housing changes.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Perusing old threads is fun for a lot of reasons, including noting the viv size recommendations -- I recall one where a still respected (in the larger herp hobby) keeper was adamant that his breeding of terribs in a 10g was just fine, and there are plenty of other species recommended for 10g fish tanks.
> 
> I myself, aside from the occasional upsizing of growing snakes too soon (they can stress in larger enclosures, but hobby-level snake housing for most species is a completely different approach, as the whole enclosure is basically a hide box) have never put animals in an enclosure only to later come to think the enclosure too large. On the contrary -- I'm continuously tearing down vivs to make room for larger ones to move those animals into, and the animals always -- every single time -- seem to change their behavior in positive ways. Each time I upsize enclosures, my thoughts about what is acceptable housing changes.


All of this. When I kept ranitomeya my first go-round, it was all in 20 high vertical conversion tanks. I wouldn't consider that today to be appropriate for anything more than a grow out for froglets. I have noticed a huge difference between giving my thumbnails this huge space as opposed to cramming them into too small of a fish tank.


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## gotfrogs? (Sep 18, 2018)

Hobbyists use to give the advice of "One frog per 5 gallons". After keeping dart frogs for over 20 years I will say that you CAN keep almost any pair of dart frogs in a 10 gallon aquarium. You can breed them, you can pull the eggs and raise the offspring and you can keep the pair "Happy" and long lived. So, is a ten gallon the perfect size for a pair of dart frogs? Personally, I like to see the frogs move around more and interact with their surroundings. That said, I think a 20 gallon long aquarium would be more well suited for a pair of dart frogs. I currently keep my frogs in 10 gallon aquariums, 20 gallon aquariums and 25 gallon aquariums.


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

I think you can keep a pair of tincs in an Amazonia In Situ with no problems personally.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

hansgruber7 said:


> I think you can keep a pair of tincs in an Amazonia In Situ with no problems personally.


It's not really a question of can you or can't you. The question is should you. @Aphanius clearly doesn't want to give their frogs the bare minimum.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Here's the real answer. And it's ACTUALLY THE REAL ANSWER:

No one knows.

We don't know to what extent frogs have any sort of psychological experience at all. We don't know, if they have a psychological experience, how it's influenced by spatial parameters. 

But we do know that bigger is better for planting, bigger is better for microfauna production, bigger is better for thermoclines, and bigger is better for microclimate variation. Bigger is better.

I note that MANY reptiles and amphibians are kept in enclosures for which the ratio of cage area/volume to animal area/volume is much lower than for our darts typically, and they "do" fine. And darts "do" fine in small cages. Is "doing fine" really "doing fine?"

No one knows.


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## Aphanius (Sep 24, 2021)

Well, clearly this topic hits quite the nerve! It's really frustrating that all of the larger commercially available vivariums require extensive mods (replacing the top, drilling drains, sealing gaps) to make them frog ready. I'm also not up for dropping a ton of money into a custom enclosure for my first foray into the frog world.

I get why there is a lot of differences of opinion on adequate enclosure sizes. As @npaull noted, we're stuck using subjective observations of animal behaviors to interpret whether the environment we've provided is sufficient. From my perspective keeping other animals, I think a lot of it comes down to what the owner wants get out of the experience. It's a stereotype that killifish enthusiasts keep racks of 5 gallon tanks because they want to breed as many different species as possible, but I found that keeping those same fish in a 10 gallon (or especially a 20 long) was a very different experience. Rather than having a single pair that hangs static in the tank waiting to be fed you instead could keep multiple pairs and observe the social interactions, etc.

What draws me to darts is the high activity level and social behaviors, and I don't want to constrain them by using too small a setup. Basically, I'd like to have a tank that I can sit down in front of and observe the animals interacting with each other. I'm still trying to figure out what species I'd like to start working with, and while some aspects of _Ranitomeya_ are appealing, I'd like my first frogs to be bold and easily observed. Not interested in _D. leucomelas _or any of the _Epipedobates_ species because of their loud calls. Honestly I'm having a hard time choosing a species right now: looking for frogs that are at least moderately bold, do well in groups, and don't have a loud call. It seems like this is one of those "pick two out of three" situations. Anyway, I guess a question for everyone would be: would you rather go with the smaller Insitu out of the box, or do a bunch of refits to an Exoterra or Zoomed 36x18x18 to make it frog ready?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

For me: the retrofitting for an exo terra, Zoo med or Atasuki terrarium (Atasuki's are my favorites) are not that big of a deal. 

1. Get mosquito netting, silicone it on top of the existing screen lid. Attach the mosquito netting over the front vent (do it on the inside of the tank so that is not as noticeable). 

2. Drill a drain hole and install a bulkhead

3. Make an acrylic or glass lid insert, place over top of the existing lid. Drill a hole in one of the pieces for the misting nozzle (assuming you are using one) and install it.

I just did a 36x18x18" exo Terra retrofit. My costs to do so were (USD)

Tank: $185
Mosquito netting: $15
Silicone $5
Glass inserts: $25
Bulkhead: $4
Even if you were to need to buy the glass drill bit , it's only another $20 or so. 

On your frog choices:
Dendrobates auratus hits all the marks, if you are getting the right morph, some of them are quite bold.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

fishingguy12345 said:


> For me: the retrofitting for an exo terra, Zoo med or Atasuki terrarium (Atasuki's are my favorites) are not that big of a deal.


Yes. Easy modifications to make them suitable to a fairly specific purpose.


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## Tiger94 (Sep 3, 2021)

thedudeabides said:


> Eh, agree to disagree then. Just out of curiosity what would you say is enough space for a pair of tincs?


Some of these answers are disconnected to me. An 18" x 18" x 18" is more than enough space for a pair IMO. My pair hardly use all of that space as it is.


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## Tiger94 (Sep 3, 2021)

Aphanius said:


> Well, clearly this topic hits quite the nerve! It's really frustrating that all of the larger commercially available vivariums require extensive mods (replacing the top, drilling drains, sealing gaps) to make them frog ready. I'm also not up for dropping a ton of money into a custom enclosure for my first foray into the frog world.
> 
> I get why there is a lot of differences of opinion on adequate enclosure sizes. As @npaull noted, we're stuck using subjective observations of animal behaviors to interpret whether the environment we've provided is sufficient. From my perspective keeping other animals, I think a lot of it comes down to what the owner wants get out of the experience. It's a stereotype that killifish enthusiasts keep racks of 5 gallon tanks because they want to breed as many different species as possible, but I found that keeping those same fish in a 10 gallon (or especially a 20 long) was a very different experience. Rather than having a single pair that hangs static in the tank waiting to be fed you instead could keep multiple pairs and observe the social interactions, etc.
> 
> What draws me to darts is the high activity level and social behaviors, and I don't want to constrain them by using too small a setup. Basically, I'd like to have a tank that I can sit down in front of and observe the animals interacting with each other. I'm still trying to figure out what species I'd like to start working with, and while some aspects of _Ranitomeya_ are appealing, I'd like my first frogs to be bold and easily observed. Not interested in _D. leucomelas _or any of the _Epipedobates_ species because of their loud calls. Honestly I'm having a hard time choosing a species right now: looking for frogs that are at least moderately bold, do well in groups, and don't have a loud call. It seems like this is one of those "pick two out of three" situations. Anyway, I guess a question for everyone would be: would you rather go with the smaller Insitu out of the box, or do a bunch of refits to an Exoterra or Zoomed 36x18x18 to make it frog ready?


My Tincs were shy as they settled into their tanks but now will come right up to me when I open the door for feeding and are always out and active. I watch them for hours lol.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

bulbophyllum said:


> Yes. Easy modifications to make them suitable to a fairly specific purpose.


Not at all. I spent $14 on a piece of glass and another $7 to make the screen vents for the top, although I had no-see-um mesh on hand. But still, the cost of an exo and the modification comes no where close to the cost of an insitu. With the modifications included, I spent less than $400 of a 36x36 exo.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Tiger94 said:


> Some of these answers are disconnected to me. An 18" x 18" x 18" is more than enough space for a pair IMO. My pair hardly use all of that space as it is.


Jesus that's way too small. I kept a pair of azureus in an 18x18x24 and they used every square inch. To the point that I moved them into a 40 breeder because it was clear there wasn't enough space. 18x18 is too small for any frog. With false bottom and substrate, that only leaves 12" of height for frogs that want to climb 4-6'. That is unconscionable.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Aphanius said:


> What draws me to darts is the high activity level and social behaviors, and I don't want to constrain them by using too small a setup. Basically, I'd like to have a tank that I can sit down in front of and observe the animals interacting with each other. I'm still trying to figure out what species I'd like to start working with, and while some aspects of _Ranitomeya_ are appealing, I'd like my first frogs to be bold and easily observed. Not interested in _D. leucomelas _or any of the _Epipedobates_ species because of their loud calls. Honestly I'm having a hard time choosing a species right now: looking for frogs that are at least moderately bold, do well in groups, and don't have a loud call. It seems like this is one of those "pick two out of three" situations. Anyway, I guess a question for everyone would be: would you rather go with the smaller Insitu out of the box, or do a bunch of refits to an Exoterra or Zoomed 36x18x18 to make it frog ready?





fishingguy12345 said:


> On your frog choices:
> Dendrobates auratus hits all the marks, if you are getting the right morph, some of them are quite bold.


Yup, I agree that what you are looking for lines up very well with Dendrobates auratus. Although there are definitely some morphs which can be considered shy (camouflage and campana come to mind). The costa rica, el cope, birkahn, wassmann, highland bronze and panama special morphs are all pretty bold. And by bold I mean "wait on their regular feeding spot for you to feed them and don't even hop away when you open the doors" type of bold. Keep in mind that the longer a group of auratus is kept in the same tank, and the more cover they have available, the more bold they become.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tiger94 said:


> Some of these answers are disconnected to me. An 18" x 18" x 18" is more than enough space for a pair IMO. My pair hardly use all of that space as it is.


Unless the frogs are ill (not suggesting they are) a failure to explore all areas in a viv is due to inadequate design, not an excess of space. Tincs are actually harder to design a fully useable viv for than for leucs or thumbs. since tincs aren't as good at climbing non-ideal surfaces and inclines. The standard 'wall of plants background' often isn't very walkable, and tincs are more hikers than acrobats.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Aphanius said:


> What draws me to darts is the high activity level and social behaviors, and I don't want to constrain them by using too small a setup. Basically, I'd like to have a tank that I can sit down in front of and observe the animals interacting with each other. I'm still trying to figure out what species I'd like to start working with, and while some aspects of _Ranitomeya_ are appealing, I'd like my first frogs to be bold and easily observed. Not interested in _D. leucomelas _or any of the _Epipedobates_ species because of their loud calls. Honestly I'm having a hard time choosing a species right now: looking for frogs that are at least moderately bold, do well in groups, and don't have a loud call. It seems like this is one of those "pick two out of three" situations. Anyway, I guess a question for everyone would be: would you rather go with the smaller Insitu out of the box, or do a bunch of refits to an Exoterra or Zoomed 36x18x18 to make it frog ready?


I kind of already gave this opinion, but in my view the cost of the insitu outweighs the convenience of them. It's easy to drill tanks and make screen vents. And glass is cheap.

As far as frog choice. If you want a bold frog that can be kept in groups, that aren't loud, then you're best is auratus (Costa Ricans are the boldest). 

If ranitomeya do interest you, then variabilis southern are the boldest. I see mine every day. All ranitomeya are shy compared to larger frogs, but normally I can go in the enclosure to feed or trim plants and they just keep calling and mating.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Unless the frogs are ill (not suggesting they are) a failure to explore all areas in a viv is due to inadequate design, not an excess of space. Tincs are actually harder to design a fully useable viv for than for leucs or thumbs. since tincs aren't as good at climbing non-ideal surfaces and inclines. The standard 'wall of plants background' often isn't very walkable, and tincs are more hikers than acrobats.


Agreed. Tincs need a jungle gym basically. Multiple substrate levels and easy to climb inclines. In that too small tank I mentioned I had two huge broms. My azureus would climb up inclined wood and then use those broms to explore the upper regions of the enclosure. If your frogs aren't exploring every nook and cranny, then your cage is improperly designed or your frogs are dying.


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## InSitu (May 3, 2021)

Hi Everyone - Thanks for all the thought and discussion about the Selva/Amazonia foot print. It really helps us understand the current thoughts in the hobby. 

Just a clarification on size: The Amazonia/Selva models have a foot print of 22.5 x 17.5 x 24 Usable space is about 1" less on each of those dimensions, except the height, which is about 3 inches. 

The Selva/Amazonia isn't really designed for a specific species of frog. Its designed to be functionally capable, with drainage, air circulation, and lighting that will grow healthy plants and animals. With as many species of frogs available as there are, it would be impossible to have a "one size fits all" approach. 

We're at the Frog Day event in Tarrytown this weekend. And, we'll be announcing the introduction of the Selva/Amazonia "20", or, a 20" tall version of the original design. We are introducing it because we've been asked by hobbyists to do so, as well as because we're at a point in the production program where we could re-design the packaging to accommodate the change. Its a nice terrarium that will allow people to go from a maximum of two rows on their shelves to three. We would not expect people to keep large frogs in them.

Regarding behaviors of frogs in larger vivarium's, we could not agree more. Larger designs allow even small frogs to behave differently than when kept in smaller tanks. For example, we have a large format paludarium that is specifically designed to mimic the environment of the Sirensis Highlands/Ameerega Silverstoneii. After some hand wringing, we decided to see if we could have both species inhabit the tank, (as both are sympatric in their own natural environment) and the result has been a fantastic experience. Both species essentially ignore each other. A common observation though is that for both species, the dominant pairs tend to inhabit the upper regions of the tank, and the less dominate pairs in the lower regions. There's always a turf war going on with the Highland males, but no one ever gets hurt. Usually, it ends with the less dominant male being thrown off a bromeliad axil (onto the soft underbrush below) and a safe retreat into familiar, lush, foliage. If either species were to exhibit signs of stress, we, of course, would back track on this decision. But, that has not been our experience.

So, with all of the above said, we are also announcing the Orinoco large format vivarium at Frog Day this weekend also. People might want to look up the threads leading to this on this forum. And, we'll keep posting more threads as the initial production model finishes up in our shop. From a hobbyist perspective, we hope everyone picks a favorite species and decides to invest in a large format vivarium because they really do change the way you experience your animals, as well as plants.

Bill/ In Situ


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

InSitu said:


> There's always a turf war going on with the Highland males, but no one ever gets hurt. Usually, it ends with the less dominant male being thrown off a bromeliad axil (onto the soft underbrush below) and a safe retreat into familiar, lush, foliage


This is an odd observation, to me. I've never witnessed any aggression whatsoever from my Ranitomeya sirensis "Rio Pachitea yellow" group (2.1.6) in my 36x18x24" terrarium. That a group is experiencing this amount of aggressive behaviour including one male knocking another off a bromeliad to fall a distance that is likely fairly significant (many times the size of the frog) would be very concerning for me.




InSitu said:


> For example, we have a large format paludarium that is specifically designed to mimic the environment of the Sirensis Highlands/Ameerega Silverstoneii. After some hand wringing, we decided to see if we could have both species inhabit the tank, (as both are sympatric in their own natural environment) and the result has been a fantastic experience


Recommending / endorsing a mixed species terrarium in a thread started by a beginner is quite irresponsible in my opinion. Regardless of size, the practice of mixing species in a terrarium has no tangible benefit to the frogs, but can bring pretty significant risks (disease / pathogen spreading, aggression between the species, etc.).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> This is an odd observation, to me. I've never witnessed any aggression whatsoever from my Ranitomeya sirensis "Rio Pachitea yellow" group (2.1.6) in my 36x18x24" terrarium.


I have the same locale (2.2.way too many) in an 18 x 18 x 24 (which is too small and on the list for an upgrade) and haven't witnessed aggression. If I did, I'd start pulling frogs until it stopped. Physical disputes among animals not known for such disputes _is_ a probable sign of stress, IMO.

Neither Ranitomeya.com, Dendrobates.com, nor Amphibiaweb notes territoriality in the species as far as I can see from scanning those pages. A search of DB for 'sirensis fight' or 'sirensis territorial' comes up with nothing using the search feature here and using a general web search engine.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

OP:

No one knows.

Now I’m out I just can’t handle another mixing thread.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

npaull said:


> Now I’m out I just can’t handle another mixing thread.


You're right in reminding that promoting interspecific cohabitation is often considered antagonistic posting here, given *all *that has been said about its harms and dangers and lack of benefit over the years. I'm sorry that you're put off by this, and we'll make sure the thread doesn't get out of hand. 

Thanks, sincerely, for pointing out a feeling that other members certainly share.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Neither Ranitomeya.com, Dendrobates.com, nor Amphibiaweb notes territoriality in the species as far as I can see from scanning those pages. A search of DB for 'sirensis fight' or 'sirensis territorial' comes up with nothing using the search feature here and using a general web search engine.


Yet, it makes perfect sense there would be territorial disputes. The males call to attract females, and with multiple males, it makes sense there would be conflict - as to ensure their genetics are passed on. The females are the same, fighting for their genetics to be passed on. It may not always be overt, or as aggressive as say imitators or reticulata, but I would be hard pressed to believe it doesn't happen.

Even my flavovittata, while coexisting quite peacefully in a large group, certainly have disputes, and the dominant pairs always have first choice of deposition and egg laying sites I am 99% sure.

Just some thoughts.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I've seen some level of intraspecific aggression in every dart frog species I've ever kept. Obviously it's more fraught with some than others, but they're pugnacious little things. Even my D. leucomelas have rare moments when they beat the hell out of each other.


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