# Phyllobates terribilis trio!



## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Got these three little guys/gals in last week from Josh's frogs. Boy are they tiny. The first is Gov, he's the smallest (and hanging out on some incredible marcgravia, courtesy of @pubfiction!). Second photo is Colonel. He's a little rounder than Gov. And the last two shots are of The Duchess, she's the largest of the bunch. Just guessing at sex now, we'll get that sorted once we're able.

This forum doesn't have a max width set for images, because who the hell knows why.
You can see them at a normal dimension here: https://imgur.com/a/UIsMt8P


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Wow,these are not even 3 months old yet! Imo way to young to sell.
Nevertheless, enjoy them! Terribilis are amzing frogs.

You can't sex them at this age. Terribilis is only sexable at full maturity.


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Yeah, I was really not expecting them to be this small. Not sure how I feel about that. They're in a 55 gallon. Think that will be a problem? When we feed, we drop some dusted melos in right near each of them so they can grab a few. They get a couple and then start going after springtails again. They're pretty bold already, although the largest is a bit more shy.

Yeah def can't sex, so we just made up names and hope we're right


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

stevenacres said:


> Yeah, I was really not expecting them to be this small. Not sure how I feel about that. They're in a 55 gallon. Think that will be a problem? When we feed, we drop some dusted melos in right near each of them so they can grab a few. They get a couple and then start going after springtails again. They're pretty bold already, although the largest is a bit more shy.
> 
> Yeah def can't sex, so we just made up names and hope we're right


Yea, I never buy or sell frogs this young. But you already bought them, so there is no going back I guess? I don't think the size of tank is a problem. You approach on feeding them will work. Yes, the froglets are alway very bold, probably because they geneticly know they are left alone due to their poison. 

These are some of my offspring at 3-4 months old, so you have an idea how old your frogs are :


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Such little fatties! I love em.

The smallest one is really small/thin, so hopefully he fattens up over the next few weeks. Thanks for the info/photos, it's lovely to see the little dumpy froglets


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

This may well be an unpopular opinion, but I see Josh's Frogs cited repeatedly online as some kind of authority. 

Differing opinions on husbandry details aside (of which I have plenty) -- I can't see selling frogs that small to the general public as having a good outcome. Wonder what their reasoning behind that is.

Anyway, keep an eye on 'em and enjoy them -- terribilis are one of my all-time favourite species.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Tijl said:


> [...] Yes, the froglets are alway very bold, probably because they geneticly know they are left alone due to their poison.
> 
> [...]


So I have a group of Orange Blackfoots I got from UE when they were around 3-4 months out of the water (at least).

I found that for the first month or two they were surprisingly shy for terribilis; which is not to say I never saw them, they're terribilis after all .. but they weren't as bold as yellows for a little while. 

Then the larger they got, the bolder their behaviour and more aggressive their feeding response was, to the point now where they're more savage hunters than the yellows I've kept in the past, with a couple of individuals knowing full well they can coerce me to feed them.

I don't know if this is a locality thing or representative of them being F2 by way of Tesoros.

I imagine their toxicity increases with age and size, but I'm not sure if it correlates with their mature colour, i.e. does the aposematism signal full toxin load, or does their behaviour simply line up with the visual signal?


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Yeah I'm not sure! As I said, I was pretty surprised to see they were so young/small, but I wasn't sure if that was standard or not. The largest of the bunch was what I was expecting (closer to 3/4"), but the other two are super young. Hopefully things work out, as these are our first dart frogs. We're following their vitamin schedule: Mondays they get RepCal Calcium, Wednesdays they get RePcal Herptivite, and Fridays they switch back and forth between Repashy Cal Plus and Repashy Vitamin A Plus. Think that should do the trick?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I use Repashy products exclusively at this time although I am interested in Ranarium.

I used Rep-Cal products about a decade or more ago without any problems but it’s been a long time.

Best bet, run a search on vitamin supplements here. It’s going to turn up a STACK of reading, but after the inevitable initial confusion you’ll feel more well-informed, it’s worth the time.

I do supplement Repashy Vitamin A but tend to do so more infrequently for younger frogs than your schedule above; Calcium Plus contains Vitamin A anyway if I recall. 

I get cautious with it to avoid toxicity issues. I’m still doing my research to get up to date. Back in frogs after about 10 years and a few things have changed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

stevenacres said:


> Yeah I'm not sure! As I said, I was pretty surprised to see they were so young/small, but I wasn't sure if that was standard or not. The largest of the bunch was what I was expecting (closer to 3/4"), but the other two are super young. Hopefully things work out, as these are our first dart frogs. We're following their vitamin schedule: Mondays they get RepCal Calcium, Wednesdays they get RePcal Herptivite, and Fridays they switch back and forth between Repashy Cal Plus and Repashy Vitamin A Plus. Think that should do the trick?


If it was me, I would just do the Repashy products and not bother with the RepCal stuff. You can do some research, but I want to say there was something about the form that RepCal uses for one of the nutrients (Vit A?) being unusable by darts. It's been a while. What I do know is that lots of dart frog breeders, including myself, have used Repashy products exclusively for a long time with success. 

One other thing I thought of later is that my Terribs seem to be more sensitive to the balance of vitamins with regard to their breeding than most of my other frogs. I think it's more important that you get quality supplementation for your Terribs than it might be for some other frogs, especially if you want to try breeding them someday.
Mark


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

After a bit of searching I've seen a bunch of different info. Is there a specific post/regimen you can recommend?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I dust every feed with cal+, once a month VitA+ and once a month Superpig.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tijl said:


> I dust every feed with cal+, once a month VitA+ and once a month Superpig.


This works great for me, too.

Mark


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I'm about once a month on the A, although I do add Super Pig to my fly media, I also mix in store-bought cultures from time to time and crickets gut-loaded with Bug Burger as well as fresh vegetables and fruits.

Although you can use pinhead crickets easily for a number of frogs, I find them a pain to deal with, and only started on crickets when my terribilis were big enough to take quarter-inch crickets without issue.

I attempted to use isopods as a clean-up crew but my terribilis have a habit of devouring any janitorial staff bigger than a springtail.

At 8-9 months old my Blackfoots still enthusiastically take melanogaster -- probably stimulated by their movement. They're less enthused by some of the larger flies.

*Edit: They'll still eat anything, but their preference is for prey that displays a lot of movement. It triggers their trademark terribilis Berserker Rage.


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Haha I guess I'll have to see what they do once they're larger. I've got some Giant Canyon isopods that they ignore, but there are also some dwarf isopods and springtails, the latter of which are constantly being snacked upon by the tiny little guys. I'll probably use the RepCal for a few months and then switch over to the Repashy, no use in wasting it if I already have it...


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

https://i.imgur.com/UVeUpSG.jpg

Does this guy seem too thin? He's definitely thinner compared to the others, but I'm wondering if that's because he's so young...


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

stevenacres said:


> https://i.imgur.com/UVeUpSG.jpg
> 
> Does this guy seem too thin? He's definitely thinner compared to the others, but I'm wondering if that's because he's so young...


Could be the angle of the photo but I don't like the look of his hind legs, they look thin to me coupled with the rest of his frame.

Could it be he's not getting his share?

I might separate a frog like that to monitor his feeding more closely and make sure he's not getting bullied or at least beaten to the punch by tank-mates.

- Have you seen him eat, and is he moving around as much as the others, remaining visible and active?

- Do you use multiple feeding stations for these guys?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

stevenacres said:


> https://i.imgur.com/UVeUpSG.jpg
> 
> Does this guy seem too thin? He's definitely thinner compared to the others, but I'm wondering if that's because he's so young...


This looks realy bad. Small springtails can help him gain weight fast, but this frog is deffenitly not healty.. I hope for the best.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Fahad said:


> Could be the angle of the photo but I don't like the look of his hind legs, they look thin to me coupled with the rest of his frame.
> 
> Could it be he's not getting his share?
> 
> ...


It's not his legs, but his stomach had completly fallen in. This is also visible on the very first photo he posted of thi sfrog.

I would NOT seperate him, since this can cause more stress. Just add a big amount of springtails to the tank. Also try to keep your tank not to moist.

This is just a frogs that should not have been sold, waaaaay to young.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Tijl said:


> It's not his legs, but his stomach had completly fallen in.


I noticed that. I've seen frogs with stomachs like that (briefly) recover but his legs seem wasted to me which is what I focused on. I'll defer to your current experience though, I just got back in after a decade.




Tijl said:


> [...]
> This is just a frogs that should not have been sold, waaaaay to young.


Yeah, still can't imagine what any seller was thinking letting these go. I saw another post recently on a Facebook group -- same seller, different situation, very bad advice. I'm about done giving their employees any benefit of the doubt.


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

He does seem to eat. He's pretty active around the tank. He's got a lot of room away from the other frogs, so definitely not getting bullied or anything like that. He eats a fruit fly or two, but definitely seems to go after the springtails more. I need to buy some, but every time I've bought a culture, the culture is barely started and there aren't many springtails in the lot. I have a culture going now that I've been feeding but it seems slow to grow, so not sure what to do there.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

stevenacres said:


> He does seem to eat. He's pretty active around the tank. He's got a lot of room away from the other frogs, so definitely not getting bullied or anything like that. He eats a fruit fly or two, but definitely seems to go after the springtails more. I need to buy some, but every time I've bought a culture, the culture is barely started and there aren't many springtails in the lot. I have a culture going now that I've been feeding but it seems slow to grow, so not sure what to do there.


I don't know if he's on here, but find Jesse Isaiah on FB or MeWe. He has amazing springtail cultures for sale.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> You can do some research, but I want to say there was something about the form that RepCal uses for one of the nutrients (Vit A?) being unusable by darts.


This is correct. RepCal uses only beta carotene as a Vit A source, which darts (and most carnivores) cannot metabolize to Vit A. RepCal is not a suitable supplement for dart frogs.



Fahad said:


> This may well be an unpopular opinion, but I see Josh's Frogs cited repeatedly online as some kind of authority.


They used to be some kind of authority; they've lately quite obviously decided to prioritize sales over continuing to improve the hobby and their own place in it. They've given some seriously bad info lately (seal up the viv, mist the H out of it; pushing inappropriate supplements such as RepCal; mixing species...).

They also sell garden gnomes:

https://www.joshsfrogs.com/sprigandstone/fairy-gardening/gnomes.html

Some folks might see this as a positive things, but I'm not entirely comfortable buying animals from someone who also sells garden gnomes (neither will I buy fresh pork chops from a store that also sells gasoline).


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

So I got a big batch of springtails. He seems to go for them, but not really. I also saw him grab a fruit fly then spit it back out, seems like STS from what I can gather online. Do I add some Repashy Vit A to some distilled water and put him in that to bathe him?


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This is correct. RepCal uses only beta carotene as a Vit A source, which darts (and most carnivores) cannot metabolize to Vit A. RepCal is not a suitable supplement for dart frogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you have a source for the mixing species recommendation from them? I'm not doubting you, I just want the source for my own records. If their position has changed on species mixing my mind will be blown...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

@macg:

https://www.joshsfrogs.com/catalog/blog/2018/07/keeping-mourning-geckos-and-dart-frogs-together/

This article is likely the source for the common falsehoods about frogs & MGs that newcomers regurgitate (MGs are useful as FF cleaneruppers; MGs are nocturnal and so won't encounter darts; MGs and darts should have humidity 80-100%). 

At Tinley NARBC last fall, Josh's was offering a discount on MGs with the purchase of a dart frog, which is likely the best way to ensure an impulse purchase.


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

It was a convo that happened on a Facebook group, I think. At least one, there might have been multiple. A guy bought two different tinc morphs and said JF told them it was okay to house them together. It was updated:

"Alright guys, Josh's frogs customer service is excellent, they are overnighting me another azureus at no charge. They said the guy working the convention was a new employee and has been educated on the matter. I have been educated on the matter as well, I thought as long as the species was the same, the morph didn't matter, I now stand corrected. Josh's frogs was polite and I am happy with them. I'm even getting to keep the cobalt. And as luck would have it I literally just scored an 18x18x24 setup for $65 bucks. As far as housing the cobalt until the new enclosure is ready, what would y'all suggest?"


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yes, JF at least has an official stance on mixing dart frogs that is reasonable:

https://www.joshsfrogs.com/catalog/blog/2014/02/can-mix-poison-dart-frogs/

Although, while they note here the fact that "Mixing non-sympatric animals may expose all animals involved to new and harmful microorganisms" this apparently escaped the notice of the author of the MG/frog article linked above. Given all the thoughtless claims in the MG article, though, that isn't surprising.

And yes, JF will absolutely reship things they've screwed up. They sent me three consecutive 1K boxes of dead crickets a couple winters ago, and would have kept reshipping if I hadn't been convinced that they were not, in fact, going to provide cold weather packaging for them per my requests for such packaging. 



stevenacres said:


> It was a convo that happened on a Facebook group, I think. At least one, there might have been multiple. A guy bought two different tinc morphs and said JF told them it was okay to house them together. It was updated:
> 
> "Alright guys, Josh's frogs customer service is excellent, they are overnighting me another azureus at no charge. They said the guy working the convention was a new employee and has been educated on the matter. I have been educated on the matter as well, I thought as long as the species was the same, the morph didn't matter, I now stand corrected. Josh's frogs was polite and I am happy with them. I'm even getting to keep the cobalt. And as luck would have it I literally just scored an 18x18x24 setup for $65 bucks. As far as housing the cobalt until the new enclosure is ready, what would y'all suggest?"


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

So now I still gotta figure out what's wrong with my P. terribilis and how to get him healthy


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Your terribilis was just tot young tot travel which provided him with too much stress. And he was already underfed at purchase. It's nothing more than this.


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

So if it seems he can't swallow a FF, that's just because of stress? Nothing can be done?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

stevenacres said:


> So if it seems he can't swallow a FF, that's just because of stress? Nothing can be done?


No because he is to small for fruitflies. These will full up his stomach, but not fatten him. That's why I advice springtails in bigger numbers.


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Gotcha. I will keep giving him springtails and hope that helps. I tried last night and it seemed like went after them, but not sure if he actually grabbed any.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

stevenacres said:


> Gotcha. I will keep giving him springtails and hope that helps. I tried last night and it seemed like went after them, but not sure if he actually grabbed any.


You can suppelment them, so the springtails will be a little slower. If you drop them in front of the frog, you might help him to get to eat some.

https://youtu.be/exnGT1khP9s


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Really appreciate the help! I'll give that a shot this evening with some Repashy Cal Plus and Vit A.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

stevenacres said:


> Really appreciate the help! I'll give that a shot this evening with some Repashy Cal Plus and Vit A.


I would not use VitA at all, this is already enough in the cal+ and VitA is easely overdosed for frogs. I only give VitA to adult frogs once a month.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Don't worry about the Vit A for now. That is to correct potential long-term deficiencies, especially associated with present or future breeding. For now, Calcium Plus has the nutrients your frogs needs in the short run. Also, I may have missed it above, but are you pulling the skinny guy out into a separate enclosure? It might help him eat if he is not having to contend with the aggressive feeding of his tank mates.

Mark


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> [...] I may have missed it above, but are you pulling the skinny guy out into a separate enclosure? It might help him eat if he is not having to contend with the aggressive feeding of his tank mates.
> 
> Mark


That was one of my first thoughts, but Tijil suggests moving the frog would stress it further.

I suppose if there's sufficient space, broken sight-lines and no overt aggression from tank-mates leaving it in place will work and likely be beneficial.

The only experience I have in this regard was a group of juvenile leucomelas where one male wasn't being overtly bullied but was slightly under-weight while showing very subtle signs of avoiding his tank-mates.

At the time I was working from home so I was able to closely monitor the situation and make sure he got enough food, and the issue corrected itself as he put on weight and confidence -- I never did separate him out but he wasn't presenting as severely underweight.

As I've said, I'll defer to more experienced keepers in this regard, but my own strategy would be to first ensure the frog isn't experiencing overt or covert bullying from tank-mates. The signs can be very subtle.

That said, terribilis usually play well together although the robust feeding responses from a larger animal could be problematic. Sometimes you just need to make a decision and stick with it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I wonder: if the little one is only/mostly eating (dusted?) springs, which is the better situation for this -- display viv vs small hospital tub? I defer to Tijl's opinions on these things, but that's a pretty big viv.

@stevenacres, it might be worth the trouble of notifying Josh's about your concerns and problems, if you haven't already.


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Thanks for the help everyone!

The guy doesn't seem stressed at all. He did a good runaround of the tank and found a spot he likes, where he hangs out the most. He's out in the open and doesn't seem to be afraid of my hands being in the tank or around him, so that's good. The other frogs haven't shown any bullying signs at all. Very friendly bunch, and when it's feeding time, they're all in their own areas, not able to see each other really. I'm able to drop some food right in front of him without others coming to take any.

I will use Repashy Cal Plus and skip the Vit A! I have emailed the above photo to JF, awaiting reply.


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## stevenacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Sadly the smallest guy didn't end up making it. Couldn't get him to eat anything, moved him to a smaller enclosure with lots of leaf litter and springtails, but he wouldn't really eat, unfortunately. Sad day for us, but Josh's Frogs has been incredibly helpful along the way and are going to replace him, despite being well-past their normal guarantee. Thanks for everyone's help as well! The other two are plumping up nicely and seem happy and healthy, so once we get the third little guy to round out the trio I'll post some new pics!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

macg said:


> Do you have a source for the mixing species recommendation from them? I'm not doubting you, I just want the source for my own records. If their position has changed on species mixing my mind will be blown...


It gets worse, it seems. This one is more recent:









Dart Frogs and Tree Frogs, together? - Josh's Frogs How-To Guides


While it's usually not recommended to house multiple species of frogs together, it's possible to mix some dart & tree frogs!




www.joshsfrogs.com





To any newcomers to the hobby: I'm linking this only to point out an example of poor husbandry recommendations. 'Money', 'spend', or 'expensive' were used seven times in total, it is worth noting.


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