# Humidity Difficulties



## SirMitchel (Oct 13, 2012)

Hello all,

I'm preparing a 24 X 24 X 18" Exo Terra terrarium for a pair of D. Auratus (I have not yet purchased the frogs). I'm having a hard time raising the humidity to the necessary 80%+. At the moment, the highest I can get the humidity is 70% (I should note that I do not have trouble maintaining 70% consistently).

I have the top sealed off (silicone) with glass. I am using ABG as my substrate, topped off with a layer of sphagnum moss and a scattered layer of leaf-litter. Below the ABG layer is a layer of Hydroton. The terrarium is planted (moderate plant density since they have not had time to grow too much). I do not have a water feature or water dish, but some of the larger litter leaves maintain small pools of water. I hand mist the tank 2-3 times per day. Increasing misting frequency does not seem to have much of an effect on the humidity levels.

I would appreciate any help that could be provided to gain that last 10-15% of humidity. It seems I have tried all of the obvious tricks to raise it, as well as techniques I have found in various forum threads.

Regards,
Mitch


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## Gocubs (Apr 23, 2012)

What kind of gauge are you using? If it is sealed and you mist 3x daily it seems impossible.


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## SirMitchel (Oct 13, 2012)

A small analog hygrometer--ZooMed brand if I remember correctly. It crossed my mind that the gauge could be inaccurate, but I thought that seemed unlikely considering that it's a new gauge.


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## amnesia (Jan 23, 2011)

Is your tank maintaining condensation on the glass? In my experience those types of gauge are not very accurate, and they fail quite easily in higher humidity or if they get wet.


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## SirMitchel (Oct 13, 2012)

Yes, the terrarium maintains quite a lot of condensation on the glass. Granted, I live in a cold, dry area. And as I understand, condensation can be a symptom of drastically different environments inside vs. outside the terrarium.

I will try try a different gauge and post my results. Should I try a digital gauge? Or just a different analogue one?


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

personally i don't use a gauge. i just look and see. if the leaves at the bottom are dry then i mist. If the cork bark is dry, then i mist. If the background is dry, then i mist. In other words, i mist once to twice a day and i'm fine.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Many frogs are perfectly happy at 70%..... (or even at 60%).... Maximizing humidity above those levels is not only unnecessary but potentially an issue for the frogs particularly if the temperatures rise since they are then unable to use evaporative cooling to reduce their body temperature. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Frog Tropics (Jul 18, 2012)

If there is condensation on the glass, then I don't think your humidity levels could possibly be too low. I think spraying once per day is fine personally. Either way, it does not sound as though your humidity is too low so I would assume either a malfunction or improper reading of some sort regarding the gauge.


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## SirMitchel (Oct 13, 2012)

Ed said:


> Many frogs are perfectly happy at 70%..... (or even at 60%).... Maximizing humidity above those levels is not only unnecessary but potentially an issue for the frogs particularly if the temperatures rise since they are then unable to use evaporative cooling to reduce their body temperature.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Interesting and good to know. Much of what I've read has said that PDFs must be kept at or above 80% humidity. In fact, many of the caresheets on this website suggest the same...


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm new to the hobby (bit of a lurker) and had the same questions / confusion about temperature and humidity data. I pulled 40 years of historical weather station data from the Sipaliwini Preserve station (I have pair of azureus). I plotted the data up and found the median humidity to vary between 70% and 80% at that station. 










This seems to jive with other advice that I had received which was to target 80%. I also found that my analog gauges were horribly inaccurate. The two I had routinely registered 70% to 80% RH. I bought a USB data logger and found that over the summer my RH has consistently been 95% or higher. I have a large low speed circulation fan that keeps the condensation at bay, but man was I surprised. I've been tracking the vivarium temp/humidity since July and my plan is to see how ambient conditions effect the viv, here's the RH data so far:









The cool part about this view is you can vaguely see the darker bands running vertically through the data set at 06:00, 12:00, and 18:00 (00:00 is tough to see) when my mister turns on. I am eager to see how the RH drops as the hot/humid Austin summer breaks and our RH drops. 

And here's the time series temperature data if you are interested:









Sorry for the long post - I know this would have been helpful to me starting out. I fiddled around with those analog gauges for 6 months before figuring out they were just not worth the effort.


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## SirMitchel (Oct 13, 2012)

Wow, thanks for the interesting and informative data!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SirMitchel said:


> Interesting and good to know. Much of what I've read has said that PDFs must be kept at or above 80% humidity. In fact, many of the caresheets on this website suggest the same...


If you consider the that the amount of humidity impacts the ability of the frog to control it's body temperature, we see the recommendations to keep the frogs at temperatures that are significantly lower than they see in the wild, and for those that have been studied cooler than the frogs choose for at least tadpole deposition (78 F for D. auratus). 

This article documents that the humidity can run close to 60% http://www.sipaliwinisavanna.com/docs/vegetation_sipaliwini_savanna.pdf 


If you look at joneill809's data (and unfortunately I had to look at it on their webpage to get it large enough for these old eyes to read) Dart frog vivarium comparison to locale specific weather data – oneillscrossing.com you can see that the recommendations in the care sheets to keep the frogs at a temperature of under 75 and a humidity close to 80% isn't what they would experience in the wild... 

(FYI, assuming that azureus are found in heavily forested areas isn't necessarily correct, they are found in "forest islands" surrounded by savannah (see http://www.sipaliwinisavanna.com/do...rp_Suriname_III_Descr_Dendrobates_azureus.pdf) 

Ed


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## joneill809 (Feb 25, 2012)

Ed said:


> (FYI, assuming that azureus are found in heavily forested areas isn't necessarily correct, they are found in "forest islands" surrounded by savannah (see http://www.sipaliwinisavanna.com/do...rp_Suriname_III_Descr_Dendrobates_azureus.pdf)
> Ed


Agree and I should have added that caveat. Coming by complete weather data in the region was difficult, so this is what I would consider best available. There are also long gaps in the data coverage over the 40 year period, but this was the closest I could obtain for a "macro" view of the climate. I'm sure there's much more variability in the micro-climates within the forested islands where azureus are found. 

I'm up for reproducing the summary if someone knows of a specific weather station that may be more representative of PDF habitats - could be a different species, I just picked this location because of my interest in azureus. Feedback is always welcome! I enjoy data visualization so any guidance on making the presentation more useful to the hobby is appreciated.

Jim


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## naadbrahma (Sep 14, 2012)

You can also tape the vents on the front of your tank. I honestly had the same problem but after a few weeks of watering and misting the substrate finally started giving out humidity. If your tank is recently set up its probably a similar thing going on.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

joneill809 said:


> Agree and I should have added that caveat. Coming by complete weather data in the region was difficult, so this is what I would consider best available. There are also long gaps in the data coverage over the 40 year period, but this was the closest I could obtain for a "macro" view of the climate. I'm sure there's much more variability in the micro-climates within the forested islands where azureus are found.
> 
> I'm up for reproducing the summary if someone knows of a specific weather station that may be more representative of PDF habitats - could be a different species, I just picked this location because of my interest in azureus. Feedback is always welcome! I enjoy data visualization so any guidance on making the presentation more useful to the hobby is appreciated.
> 
> Jim


Most of that region isn't going to see any development in the near future.. If I remember correctly the original data collecting point was a nearby airfield. 

I just want to stress that the recommendations in the care sheets are different than the natural conditions because people have it in thier heads that these frogs should be found in an area which a much higher ambient humidity requiring them to decrease the temperature to make sure they don't overheat the animals. 

Highly accurate temperature and humidity measurements can be purchased but they aren't inexpensive (see Data Loggers: HOBO® Data Logger Products by Onset) for a wide selection. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Well technically, you could put a small cup or something in the tank so that IF the frogs are drying out they have the option to jump in there and re-hydrate, also what are your outside ambient temperatures?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

mimic711 said:


> Well technically, you could put a small cup or something in the tank so that IF the frogs are drying out they have the option to jump in there and re-hydrate, also what are your outside ambient temperatures?


Just a bit of friendly advice for you and all the other newbs. Read everything you can about dart frogs in books and forums...listen to experienced keepers...gain some actual, real experience keeping dart frogs before dispensing advice. Don't just regurgitate something you've read while building your first viv. You'll be taken much more seriously in the future. Best of luck buddy.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

This turned out to be a great discussion thread. I used to keep and breed darts but I took about a five year break and am just now getting back into them. When I kept them, the lids on most of the cages were either completely screen or otherwise well-ventilated. After coming back and reading the forums more recently everyone is now sealing up their vivs much more. I wondered (and still wonder) where this came from. I was worried I was behind the times and was second-guessing my tried and true methods from the past. I think it shows how adaptable and hardy dendrobatids are in that so many people are having success with them under a wide variety of conditions.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Just a bit of friendly advice for you and all the other newbs. Read everything you can about dart frogs in books and forums...listen to experienced keepers...gain some actual, real experience keeping dart frogs before dispensing advice. Don't just regurgitate something you've read while building your first viv. You'll be taken much more seriously in the future. Best of luck buddy.


Well was I wrong?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mimic711 said:


> Well was I wrong?


Indirectly... for example, cup is a vague descriptor and can cover water holding vessles ranging from sake bowls to china cofffee cups to the large 32 oz reusable containers (and even larger vessels) available at some minimarkets. These different vessels hold different amounts of water and have different surfaces allowing for different ability of the frog to gain traction... so if the person uses a larger cup and fills it most of the way, it could potentially serve as a drowning tank for the frog.. 


As one example, 

Some comments 

Ed


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## morg (Jul 28, 2012)

Be sure to consider the humidity of a frog's micro-climate. The standing air of the jungle may only be 60%, but low amongst the leaves, ground, and shade it may be much higher.
I use a fogger/hygrotherm to help maintain humidity in case I am not able to mist. It rarely turns on, but I know its ready to cover my back.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It could also be lower.. people often don't take it into account that for example a partly closed off area with a drier substrate could have a lower humidity microclimate.... For example, some researchers reported that when collecting Bolitoglossa dolflini from thier day time refuges, they were found in areas of a totally dry substrate...... 

Too often with amphibians people make the assumption that wetter and more humid is better.... to the point where they reduce air flow to the point, the enclosures are at risk of stagnation. If it is "wet/humid" enough that the plants are unhappy (like bromeliads) then you should take some time to consider whether it is good for the animals.. since the plants are a major part of the animal's niche... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

I would agree with you 100% on the frogs drowning but hopefully someone who spent there hard earned $ on frogs, equipment, food, lights, plants, tank ect ect would hopefully know by then that darts cant swim very well.

The point I was trying to make is if you have evaporation it may help with your humidity problem, thus advising him to put a cup or bowl in his tank to help with humidity, just trying to help.

Don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out 

but yes, I do agree with your statements for sure Ed.


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## SirMitchel (Oct 13, 2012)

I really appreciate all the input and knowledge that you experienced keepers have provided. I feel I should provide an update:

Since my original posting, I acquired a much more accurate hygrometer, and it turns out my humidity levels were much, much higher than my previous device led me to believe. My humidity peaked at around 95% and dipped to only 80% (This was after I did not mist for two days). Taking into account the information I had gathered in this thread, I unsealed the glass top. I still have the glass top over the screen, but it sits fairly high above the screen, allowing plenty of air to rise and escape. Additionally, I have reduced my misting to once a day. All these factors have led to my humidity stabilizing around 80% (±5%).

Should I aim to bring that level down a bit, perhaps by misting only every other day?

Thanks for your continued support,
Mitch


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

I am just curious how you know the new meter is accurate? I always test mine to be sure within a reasonable range. 

I have read that the calibration at the factories can be off by quite a bit. You can use a salt test to test your meter if you are patient enough.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SirMitchel said:


> Should I aim to bring that level down a bit, perhaps by misting only every other day?
> Mitch


There are a lot of people that don't mist every day and have good success with thier plants and frogs.... As a broad generality neither of them wants to be soaked 100% of the time... .

Ed


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## KenThompson (Feb 12, 2021)

I logged in to checj on ways I could increase the humidity levels in the tank I set up. I have the proper substrates and moss. I have plants added. I installed a fogger set on a timer. I might system that releases minimal heat also on a timer. The system ran a month. During which I monitored both temperatures and humidity. My temperatures were running about 2 to 4 degrees to low. I added a ceramic heater so as to not mess up any lighting I had. Just increase the temperatures. Space above the tank was measured for placement of the heater. Started further away. Can always move it closer. Two weeks in. My temperatures are steadily 2 degrees warmer. So temperatures are right. Humidity levels for 2 months now have been consistently at 78%. The tank is for dart frogs. My goal is 85%. I have read they prefer at least 80 and like it in the 90% range. Setting a goal of 85 puts my in the middle. I shouldn't drop below 80 and shouldn't rise above 95. After reading through this thread. I believe my humidity issue is not any of my setup. It is the gauge I installed. I will be picking up a new gauge today


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

KenThompson said:


> I logged in to checj on ways I could increase the humidity levels in the tank I set up. I have the proper substrates and moss. I have plants added. I installed a fogger set on a timer. I might system that releases minimal heat also on a timer. The system ran a month. During which I monitored both temperatures and humidity. My temperatures were running about 2 to 4 degrees to low. I added a ceramic heater so as to not mess up any lighting I had. Just increase the temperatures. Space above the tank was measured for placement of the heater. Started further away. Can always move it closer. Two weeks in. My temperatures are steadily 2 degrees warmer. So temperatures are right. Humidity levels for 2 months now have been consistently at 78%. The tank is for dart frogs. My goal is 85%. I have read they prefer at least 80 and like it in the 90% range. Setting a goal of 85 puts my in the middle. I shouldn't drop below 80 and shouldn't rise above 95. After reading through this thread. I believe my humidity issue is not any of my setup. It is the gauge I installed. I will be picking up a new gauge today


Welcome to DB. 

The post you replied to is over eight years old, and while I haven't read it, husbandry has come a long way in that time.

Doing more research of current discussions will show you that foggers are discouraged, and targeting RH numbers is a questionable practice for a few reasons. Supplemental heat, while used successfully by some keepers, isn't often necessary. Do consider starting an introductory thread with pics of your viv so folks can give helpful advice and tips. And do look at more recent archived threads (for example, search "humidity" and then sort them by date) to see how care practices have improved.


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