# Azureiventris froglet possibly dying...



## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I picked up a lot of frogs at frog day on Saturday. My fiance wanted Azureiventris and has actually done a little research on them. So after I had some time to look around the room, we found some froglets and she went back over and bought two of them. 

They were pretty small but they were feeding on wingless fruit flies. So I figured we'd give them a try. Note: I'm not mentioning the seller because there is no reason to. He's a nice guy and reputable breeder in the hobby. Nothing but good things to say as I got 4 other frogs from him that are doing great.

Anyway, we drove 5 hours home that night after the show, and I had my frogs in a styrofoam cooler. When I got home, I put the froglets into their froglet containers which they'll be in until I think they're large enough for their tanks. 190oz giant deli cups are what I use.

Anyway, I was pretty gentle with all my frogs so not sure how this happened. I noticed one of the azureiventris feeding the other night and that was good enough for me. I was way too busy this week to actually watch them for more than a half a minute at a time at feeding. 

Today one of the frogs is active, alert, and feeding. The other wasn't moving much though looked fine. Colors are great, maybe a tad smaller than the other frog, but that's it.

He seems extremely weak and lethargic and I think it's a problem with his back legs or leg. They seem almost limp or disconnected. This is only if you try and get him to move. He holds himself up so otherwise he appears normal. 

I can even roll him to his back with my finger and he will not return to normal position.

I honestly think he's on his way out. Maybe with his small size he might of got injured on the ride home from some bump in the road or something? 

I'm not even considering disease or parasites. Not with the way he looks to be injured. Plus I got him on Saturday. I'm thinking it's an injury to his back end or back leg(s). This frog is the size of my pinky nail on my finger! Otherwise I might see an injury or easily see the problem. I'm going to take another look in a little bit with a magnifying glass and flashlight.


I have him in a tupperwear container with springtails, spag moss, leaves. Trying to see if maybe he's just weak from not being able to feed on flies yet. Their main froglet container has the bottom layer as nothing but springtail laced soil though they're not close to booming yet and he might not of been able to find food.

I'll take a picture soon because as you can tell, I'm baffled. 

I feel bad because I don't want to put him down if I think he might heal and bounce back. Plus, my fiance had a similar problem with her first frogs, auratus where 2 of them died and the third is almost an adult now. I rarely EVER have frogs die. Not in YEARS. Yet this would be her second species that are hers (even though I take care of them). So I feel bad to have to tell her that another frog of hers died. She'll think she's bad luck lol


Anyway guys, anyone ever have back leg problems with Hyloxalus azureiventris? I'm obviously all over the place and confused.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Sorry to hear you're having problems with your AZ. I purchased 2 froglets from the same vendor and aside from being shy, seem to be in good health. They seem to be very skittish. Maybe it got spooked and injured itself?


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## mickipedic (May 20, 2010)

Hard to diagnose the problem specifically without seeing the frog in question in action, but I will say that my azureiventris were VERY skittish when young. They're quite bold now, but I was regularly worried about them when young. Be sure that the froglet is able to hide itself and feel protected. 

When feeding, keep an eye on them to make sure that they're able to eat the food item offered. I was able to get mine on hydei really quickly without any trouble but if yours is too small to handle that you may need to switch to melanogaster or just springs for the time being. Also, make sure that you're dusting with vitamins and calcium when you feed- it's especially important for young and growing froglets.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

It's not a question of husbandry really. I've been keeping dart frogs for over a decade. More so just an injury he might of sustained at some point, but I didn't notice it until now. Anything other than diagnosing injury, possible healing or putting frog down, etc is my top priority. Things like retreating to hide and fly issues are the last thing on my mind right now. I'm hoping the frog regains his composure before anything else.

He's in a typical froglet set-up. A 3 dimensional landscape in my froglet container with a lot of quick hide retreats in leaf litter, moss, etc.

I don't like to work with hydei, only wingless fruit-flies as my staple diet supplemented every feeding with Repashy Calcium ICB. I don't use any other supplements as I've come to my own conclusions on what is needed and what is best. I used to have a 3 supplement rotation though. Fruit fly issue is not that I don't like hydei for feeding, but they're fast, escape easier, and live a long time and drive my roommates insane by making it all the way to their end of the house lol

I'll try and figure out the issue. Hopefully he'll feed without being too mobile, then heal.

By the way, Mickipedic, sorry if I came off as defensive, I didn't mean to. I just didn't want it to seem like I was confused on anything other than the problem. Husbandry is my number one priority and I'm a pretty serious and fairly experienced hobbyist. That's all..didn't want to seem like a newbie.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Well, looks like I was smart in giving him a night to see how he did. Have him in a 32 fruit fly container with moss, leaves, etc. He actually looks like he MIGHT bounce back, we'll see. When I went in to check on him, he was bouncing around almost like normal. Looked a tad skinny but I'll make sure to see if he eats today. I'm sure he's been eating springtails all morning if he's been eating at all.

I saw his mouth hanging open today and while that's not a good sign, he may just be stressed from being startled by me. Yesterday he didn't care if I picked him up and today he's looking stronger. I've had frogs gasp with their mouths when they're stressed after being shipped or transported too far. Last time I saw it was when my terribilis arrived a few months back.

Anyway wish me luck! Hopefully I can just go easy with this little guy and he'll "bounce" back!


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## David Becher (Feb 10, 2010)

Dj maybe hes just stressed, I mean think if you were put into a dark cooler, for what seemed to be forever! You would have to be pretty tough to come out fighting. All animals have their own way of acting when they become stressed and he could just be doing his own thing. I hope for the best possible outcome! Good Luck with your frog


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I don't know David, this seemed worse than stress. He was settled in for 4 days when I noticed it and while I know it can take a long time for any frogs to settle in, I figured he'd at least have use of his back legs and not go completely limp. If he didn't hold his place in a normal upright position, I would of thought he was dead or almost dead.

Luckily he's seeming a tad more normal so I doubt it was a broken bone or dislocated hip. 

You're right though, could of been stress...I hope so. I've had frogs take a good month before I finally can tell they've settled in. 

Going to try and feed him a little now.

D


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I would just leave him/her alone, Dan. Add lots of leaf litter and microfauna. Most likely it was responding to being startled and decided to play dead. Also could be calcium def. You might try ringer's solution but ime, just feeding and leaving it alone should suffice. Its difficult with smaller froglets but by and large, the species is pretty damn hardy.


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## David Becher (Feb 10, 2010)

Not so closely related to frogs, but when I used to take care of lizards, at one point I had to move, and had a friend take care of them for me until I was settled in and he could ship them. Sure enough when they arrived one of the lizards legs were floppy. I was quite a bit younger and it made me feel so bad. Well after spending about 500 dollars at the vet for him to do nothing more then adgetate the poor thing, I read online about the possible problem and I'm pretty sure it was called MBD. It sais, that it applies to reptiles but maybe young amphibians are succeptable to something of the same sort? Either way, the best thing to do is what you are doing, and let the frog do its own thing. I bought some calcium glucosonate to give the lizard, and its legs were fine within about two weeks. Not too familiar with frog healthcare 

Ps:taught me how good of an idea it is to leave your pets with friends...!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

David Becher said:


> Dj maybe hes just stressed, I mean think if you were put into a dark cooler, for what seemed to be forever! You would have to be pretty tough to come out fighting. All animals have their own way of acting when they become stressed and he could just be doing his own thing. I hope for the best possible outcome! Good Luck with your frog


 
I think Dave has it right, frogs (and other amphibians) have a physiology that prevents them from being able to sustain activity for long periods of time. If they go beyond that limit, they end up having issues like you describe. they do typically recover if allowed to rest. 
If you are seeing limb trembling as well then that may also be a sign of hypocalcemia. 

Ed


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

So you're saying exhaustion? Honestly, I noticed the minute I opened their container to feed and they weren't jumping around like crazy or anything like that. So I don't think it was that as he wasn't moving before I opened container.

Ray, I like your suggestion about playing dead. That's very possible. He really seemed dead in some ways but is now seeming fine. 

If it was a calcium deficiency I imagine it was because they morph SO small that the froglet wouldn't take fruit flies to start and it's pretty hard to dust springtails. That would be quickly corrected if he's feeding on my repashy dusted fruit flies. Problem solved if ever there.

I think it could of been stress as well, or being startled and playing dead. Either way I thought it was interesting to follow up on this as it seemed to spark some smart froggers to play detective for me a bit. 

I appreciate it guys!
Dan


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

David Becher said:


> Not so closely related to frogs, but when I used to take care of lizards, at one point I had to move, and had a friend take care of them for me until I was settled in and he could ship them. Sure enough when they arrived one of the lizards legs were floppy. I was quite a bit younger and it made me feel so bad. Well after spending about 500 dollars at the vet for him to do nothing more then adgetate the poor thing, I read online about the possible problem and I'm pretty sure it was called MBD. It sais, that it applies to reptiles but maybe young amphibians are succeptable to something of the same sort? Either way, the best thing to do is what you are doing, and let the frog do its own thing. I bought some calcium glucosonate to give the lizard, and its legs were fine within about two weeks. Not too familiar with frog healthcare
> 
> Ps:taught me how good of an idea it is to leave your pets with friends...!




I've seen metabolic bone disease many times in lizards. In particular, Iguanas, bearded dragons, and leopard geckos. Well they're my experience with MBD. Never happens when diet is good or other environmental things are considered. Big problems with calcium deficiencies in leopard geckos is when females become egg bound. I always took special note of their diet and very importantly adult female weight in grams. That can tell you a lot.

I wasn't going to jump on anything supplement related. Especially considering they came from a great breeder who was nice enough to contact me and offer to refund if the animal died. I honestly wouldn't take it for such an inexpensive frog. I've had the frog home since Saturday night so if anything I figured it was an injury sustained somehow during the week. 

Looks like that's not the case. I honestly don't think of supplement issues anymore. Not since some tincs of mine had a Vitamin A deficiency 4 months ago. Ever since I talked with top breeders on what they're doing and learning the ingredients, I realized the big thing that my elaborate weekly vitamin rotation was missing is Retinol and beta-caroteine. I've noticed a lot of changes in my frogs. I do supplement dendrocare, repcal, herptevite a couple times a month as well just to break it up a bit.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frogs compared to many other vertebrates have poor ability to recover from sustained exertion which results in flaccid tetany.

While "death feigning" has been put forth by hobbyists as an explination for these behaviors, I don't remember seeing it documented in the literature and animals that exhibit these responses are not compromised when they cease the behavior. 

Calcium insufficiency typically results in a rigid tetany as the frog doesn't have enough calcium ions in the tissues to allow continued muscle use. Tetany from calcium insufficiency normal resoved very quickly particularly when the stimulation is resolved.


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## David Becher (Feb 10, 2010)

I love how when you chip in to give others advice, most likely you end up learning a thing or two yourself ^^. I hope you didnt think I was saying that anything was caused by the breeder, I'm pretty sure your quite educated on who to buy from, as I've read some helpful posts from you!


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Froglet is showing some positive signs though still lethargic. 

Ya after reading Ed's posts for 6 months, I'm ready to write my dissertation lol


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

This little guy didn't make it. I was hoping that whatever was wrong with his legs could heal if he was at least eating, but he wasn't and there was nothing I could do. 

I'm pretty careful and obsessive about the hobby but sometimes things happen that I can't control. 

Thanks for all the advice guys. Not sure where I'll go with this species but the single froglet I have is doing great and I can make a better decision when he's put on a couple months of size.

D


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