# New To Dart Frogs



## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Hi all,

I am new to the keeping and care for dart frogs. My plan is to have the 12x12x18 exo-terra and i really only want 1 frog two at the most . I am not interested in groups or multiple tanks . I have been very fond of one species in particular , the Dendrobates Pumilio especially the new man or the "blue jeans" morph.

I have read that they are difficult to keep, "Difficulty: Advanced to Expert - This is mainly due to the difficulty in breeding them, as well as their territorial habits." But i do not plan on breeding or having multiple frogs.


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## tnwalkers (Jul 15, 2012)

welcome to dendroboard!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Welcome!

A pair of pumilio might be ok in there, but, mine seem to appreciate all the space they can get. Maybe a pair imitators instead?


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Welcome!
yeah, I would start out with a pair of imis. They are beautiful frogs and and come in a variety of color patterns. they are a very frog popular amongst dart frog keepers, so that makes most morphs easy to find, too.


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## MosquitoCoast (Nov 16, 2009)

CCLAXX,

I'm new to dart frogs too. My tank is a little over two months old and I'm expecting my first group of frogs next week.

When I first started trying to organize all the different species in my head I really got confused with thumbnails. A lot of them looked the same and then the locales made it worse.

I found the page below about a week ago and it really cleared up a lot of questions I had. I'm a long way from getting thumbnails right now but I already now what species I want.

Good luck,

Ranitomeya.com | Thumbnail Dart Frog


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Thank you for the responses!

I know i want to get the viv. up and running. Also the idea of the imis is good but i was wondering if there was a type of pumilllo imis? Also regarding the thumbnail species , what are some of the major differences with their care ?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

CCLAXX said:


> Thank you for the responses!
> 
> I know i want to get the viv. up and running. Also the idea of the imis is good but i was wondering if there was a type of pumilllo imis? Also regarding the thumbnail species , what are some of the major differences with their care ?


No, Imitator is completely different from Pumilio. People are suggesting trying an imitator first, as your tank size is rather small. Many of us recommend a little bigger viv for pumilio, but a pair of Imitator might fare OK in there. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13178-dendrobates-imitator-intermediate.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/17486-dendrobates-pumilio-advanced-expert.html
Should you eventually choose to go with pumilio, make sure you get captive born frogs. There are a lot of wild pumilio still being brought in and they can be wracked with problems and disease.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Well I'm strongly for the pumillos. 

Some other concerns are the plants and setup of th terrarium. Of course i will get the usual bromeliads, but could you guys list some other common plants. 

Also i was wondering about misting. i have been looking at the monsoon and mistking what are your guys opinions?


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Take a read of this post. And pay attention to what Ed has to say.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/64745-difficulty.html
I posted that thread, because I started a little war back when I posted it (which is basically the same thing you're asking in this thread)

Long story short, I did eventually buy a single Bastimentos, he did fine and now I have started breeding, and I have tads in the water from that exact frog.

Also, I would suggest finding a male if you get a single, because then you get a beautiful frog and a beautiful call!

Where are you located? Maybe you could meet up with someone and see the frogs in person, you may fall in love with a totally different species.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Very nice and i will look at that thread now!


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok so i read that thread and all i can say is Wow! there may not have been a wealth of information on care of said species , but many of opinions .

I do believe that i will go through will getting the pumilo(s). I would like to see what you guys think as far as setup is concerned. I'm guessing this will be more of a vertical orientated viv am i right? and as far as feeding goes i would like to hear what you guys are thinking.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm not worried about the difficulty. I think I posted on that thread that pums were some of my first frogs. Great frogs and I highly recommend them. My concern is that they may want more space. Yes, they like vertical space. They will also use the bottom, so make sure there's some space down there for them too, with leaf litter. 

Maybe you could be working on their next viv (there is always another viv  )while they grow in that one.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

What do you think would be a suitable size? I like the exo terra terrariums but the larger ones are quite expensive.


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## morg (Jul 28, 2012)

I only have one tank that small size. I have one pair of Dendrobates ventrimaculatus...'vents'.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

very nice , how big is this?


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## morg (Jul 28, 2012)

Same as yours...12*12*18. I would never buy this size again for darts. This size limits you to maybe a single pair of thumbers, or a lone adult .


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

I havent gotten it yet but i will remember that just in case i decide to upgrade. Also the area in which i want to keep them is in the basement and it stays constenly cooler than the main level . Im worried about heating.what do you think?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't think you're really getting what we're saying. That tank is just too small for pums. 

If you get a pair and they start breeding, what do you do? They're doing to need space to raise their babies. Then what, when the froglets start crawling out of the water? Some recommend leaving the froglets in with their parents for up to 5 months after they crawl out. 

If cost is a concern, you can get a 20 gallon high and tip it on end so that it's vertically oriented. Then either purchase, or, make a front for it. Several of the sponsors on the board sell them premade. Alternatively, there are many threads in the Construction area by people who make their own. 

We only care about what is best for the frogs so you aren't going to get much advice that is contrary to their best interest.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

I was trying to say that when im looking at the terrariums, i will look at the larger ones. What about the 18x18x12?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

CCLAXX said:


> I was trying to say that when im looking at the terrariums, i will look at the larger ones. What about the 18x18x12?


It should be taller than it is broad. Maybe 18x18x24?


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok that sounds like a plan! Do know where i can find all or most of the supplies for the tank?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'll PM you my personal favorites


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

I will take a look at those sites , thank you! As far as the 18x18x24 will this be much better for them ?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

CCLAXX said:


> I will take a look at those sites , thank you! As far as the 18x18x24 will this be much better for them ?


IMO, yes


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

CCLAXX said:


> I will take a look at those sites , thank you! As far as the 18x18x24 will this be much better for them ?





frogface said:


> IMO, yes


Agreed. That would be a much better size. You could consider a wee bit smaller like 18 x 18 x 18 but your first, 12 inch size, is much too small. Your second size (only 12 inches tall) sounds like it would be tall enough, but by the time you put in a false bottom, substrate, and leaf litter, your viv would only have about 6 inches of usable height. 18" x 18" x 24" would make a nice Pumilio viv.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Do you know where one might find this 18"cube?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Both of those first links I sent you, sell them. Maybe try PetCo and PetSmart or places like that. I use the regular old fish tank and stand it on end, so I'm not really sure the best place to get it.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

So you use one of the conversion kits or you made your own?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I used to buy the conversion kits. They are very easy to install. Lately, I've been making my own. Not very easy and my homemade ones are kinda crooked but they work.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

hey, i mean if it works haha!

I think I'm just gonna stick with the 18x18x24 . For lighting i was going to use the exoterra light. Also I wanted to ask again about the heating issue. i went down into my room and where i would put the tank was reading about 70-71 during the day. I'm not sure yet at night but is that too cold ? will i need some sort of heating tool?


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

Unless it's getting a lot colder than that at night, you won't need any heat source. In general, I'd say most people need to be more concerned about keeping it cool enough rather than warm enough. The lights on the tank will raise the temps several degrees, assuming you go with CFLs, and put it right in the perfect range for most darts. I usually shoot for about 75* in the daytime, plus or minus a couple, and about 70* at night.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

First I will say welcome! I am glad you decided on the larger tank. Once you get them you will start to understand how much space the Blue Jeans seem to prefer. Blue Jean will be tough to find and you will need to expect to spend around $250-$300 bucks on one frog, and add another $65 for shipping. Also, be prepared for the breeders to question your ability to care for them. They are not going to question you to be mean. They want to make sure they will go to a home that is good, preferably for breeding. The reason is that the BJs are very hard to find and replacements won't come easy, or cheap. Keep all of this in mind when deciding what frog is for you. Also, be prepared to spend some cash on them. 

On a side note, my auratus and vents get more compliments than my BJs from my friends who know nothing about frogs. There are many other frogs that are cheaper if you are looking for pretty and cool colors. Keep us posted!


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok it will most defiantly not get to hot down there, what do you guys think about misting systems????


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

I forgot to talk about the temps. You need to make sure that it isn't getting too cold in the room. 70-71 sounds pretty good but I expect it probably drops to the mid 60s at night. A lot of people think the temps MUST BE in the 70s. If you keep proper ventilation you can let it get much warmer. I personally let mine get in the 80s and have had no issues. I know other frogers who have been in the hobby for a very long time have recorded temps in the 90s and they too don't have problems. You can have warmer temps if you have a tank that is not too humid. We use to make the tanks air tight and run them at 100% humidity. That is not how most people keep their tanks these days. We know that humidity in the 80% range is sufficient for most frogs. The lower humidity will allow the frog to regulate their body temp. I said all that to say, you will be told the low 70s is best, which it possibly is. However, people raising tads want them to be at 80 degrees (does it make sense that the same animal needs 80 degree water to live in 70 degree adult environment?). You will also notice your flies and other bugs will grow much slower in the 60s-70 degree range.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

CCLAXX said:


> Ok it will most defiantly not get to hot down there, what do you guys think about misting systems????


I am a fan of MistKing and I have two systems. You will appreciate having a misting system when you decide to take a vacation.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

do a search on the board for some misters... Most people here use MistKing and have had a lot of success with them. Marty has a vendor feedback thread somewhere that you can check out too.

If you decide to go with MistKing, I would recommend a dual nozzle for that size enclosure. I have a dual nozzle on my 18x18x24 and it is great.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

yea i was leaning towards the mist king. wow ! the prices of those frogs are insane ha ha, you guys know of any breeders???


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

I noticed you brought up breeding.... Im not sure i want to but what are the benifits and what would i need to start?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

MistKing is the most often chosen misting system around here. Do a search on MistKing and on the competition, and the reasons will be clear.

Can't help on the 18" cube as I make all my vivs. I was just stating the minimum viv size that I would personally consider. Of course bigger is better when you can.

True Costa Rica Blue Jeans are fairly rare in the hobby. This is why people who are having success with them might prefer to sell to more experienced keepers, and more specifically, a breeder. This is to try ensure their future in the hobby.
Might I suggest that you look into Cristobal, Almirante, or Mancreek as several morphs that can be red bodied and blue legged, without carrying the large price tag that Blue Jeans have.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

I was just about to ask about that ! Also super noob question but these are "regular" sized not thumbnails. 

And do you know of a breeder of these other morphs??


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## Quickness (Jul 19, 2012)

Welcome to the forum. There is a ton of info on here to help you along the way.


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## morg (Jul 28, 2012)

Humidity... I prefer the fogger for help here. I live in the desert, and the Reptifogger/hygrotherm keeps everything perfect. I tried a mister, and it seemed to have a hard time keeping up with the dry surroundings without swamping my tanks. Plus, I still enjoy the hand-misting.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

What do you guus think of getting a pair of san cristobals ??? And got any feeding tips??


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Feeding tip #1: Start culturing flies before you get the frogs. You want to make sure you know how to keep the cultures going so you don't have to pay $10 a pop (at best) for emergency replacement cultures. Many people recommend giving yourself a month of making cultures (usually 1 a week) to make sure you've got it down.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Thats what i planned on doing. Other than fruit flies i heard they like springtails, and they dont seem that hard to culture.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes, springtails and also some dwarf white isopods. They're good for keeping the tank clean and as snacks for the frogs.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

On another note i am heading to petco to pic up my exo terra terrarium and some supplies!!


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok so petco did not have the size terrarium that i wanted and it got me thinking. How many thumbnails could fit into the 12x12x18??


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I would put no more than 2 thumbs in there.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Yea i did not plan on more than 2 so thats the way i think I'm going to go. Do you guys know any reputable breeders of the R. imitator "Varadero"? Also can i just use eco earth and maybe something else for the substrate? (over the hydroton balls of course)

I would like to contact them or if you guys know more about these guys so that i can learn as much as i can.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I would check out the care sheets for some of the info you keep asking about. A little bit of reading would answer the questions you have and probably some you didnt even know you'd have haha.

General Care Sheets


Though they are not listed in this article because they have been introduced after it was last updated... Veraderos are an Imititator morph so this would be a great place to look.
Imitator Caresheet


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Yes thank you i actually found quite abit about thses frogs and some other stuff as well! Soive seen these frogs go for about $75 am i right??


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

If you use just eco earth, it will get too soggy. 

You can get a bag of orchid bark (just bark) for around 5 bucks at Lowe's or places like that. You can mix some eco earth in with the bark. Also go ahead and grab a bag of natural charcoal (100% natural stuff). Smash it up into pieces with a hammer and add that. What you don't use, you can make springtail cultures out of or cook meat, raaawr! I like to add dry sphagnum moss, too. I tear it up by hand and toss it in. I don't measure it but the primary ingredient is bark. 

Here's a thread about substrates: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Yes but i think im just going to order NEHERPS substrate package for te 12x12


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

CCLAXX said:


> Yes thank you i actually found quite abit about thses frogs and some other stuff as well! Soive seen these frogs go for about $75 am i right??


There are plenty of people working with Varadero right now, myself included. Yes, I would say that $75 is a pretty good average price for Varadero. If you look long and hard enough, you may see some a little cheaper and you may see them for $90 or even more, too. Don't forget that you are going to have shipping charges, too, unless you can find them locally. Quality shipping can run $45 to $65 plus a possible Phase panel deposit of $10 to $30 depending on temperature extremes, for temperature control while in transit.
There will also be "hidden" expenses for things like fruit fly culturing supplies, and vitamin dusting supplements like Repashy Calcium Plus.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

CCLAXX said:


> I was just about to ask about that ! Also super noob question but these are "regular" sized not thumbnails.
> 
> And do you know of a breeder of these other morphs??


Sounds like you may be leaning towards varadero imitators now, but just so you know about the size for pumilio- Not quite sure what you mean by "regular sized", but they are not as big as more common beginner frogs like auratus, tinctorius, leucomelas, etc. Pumilio are usually a bit bigger than Ranitomeya thumbnails, but not by much and it depends on the population (my popa pumilio are smaller than my mancreek pumilio, for example). 
Also, if you are concerned with the larger tanks costing more, try just a standard 20 gallon "high" (dimensions are around 24"x17"x12") with a glass lid from a pet store in the aquarium section. Petco has 1$/gallon sales sometimes so you could get the tank and lid for under $40.
Bryan


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Pumilo,
I have taken into accout those smaller things such as the FF and suplements. Do you know of any breeders or fous assciated with the DMV area ?

Bryan,
I understand that those tank may be cheaper , but i dont want to deal with large amounts of frogs or the price tag of the pumilios. Yes, later on i will surely get maybe one more pair and that time it could be some pums. Im still in highschool so i dont have a fulltime job.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Does anyone know of any breeders of the Varaderos in the DMV area???


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

CCLAXX said:


> Does anyone know of any breeders of the Varaderos in the DMV area???


I'm assuming by DMV ou are referring to DC/Maryland/Virginia?

If so... Please start to familiarize yourself with the search function of the forum. It is up to the right side of the page. There have been 3 people that have recently posted sale ads for Varaderos not only in your area and but in the last 7 days.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I have some young ones if you want to make a drive towards nj. Would meet somewhere along the way for ya. Prefer to give them another month or so in my hands but that gives you some time to work on a tank and cultures.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

CCLAXX said:


> Does anyone know of any breeders of the Varaderos in the DMV area???


You might want to put your actual town name in the "location" spot of your profile. I've got no idea where DMV is.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DMV?? Maybe that means something if you live there. To me it means Denver Dept. of Motor Vehicles. I've been on extended waiting lists for frogs with a shorter wait than the lines at DMV!


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

D.C., Maryland, Virginia area. Trickiest google search ever haha


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

The actual dmv=hell

An Mydumbname (lol) that sounds like a good idea because i still need to setup and then my family is takin vacation so i did not want to get the frogs until after we get back.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Send me a pm and we can discuss it further. Timing and all.


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

Ok so do you guys think i should make a seperate build thread? Or to continue with the building on this thread?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Build thread!


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## CCLAXX (Aug 2, 2012)

It has been done!!


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