# 240g tank update



## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

here are pics of my 240g need more epoxy and front glass then i will be ready 2 foam viv build pictures from reptiles photos on webshots pic 35 is the my fav orchid


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Wow, that's going to be awesome!


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## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

Some nice plants indeed!


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

new pics of orchid and new wood


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm geting 4 leucs 4 tricolor 2 rare frogs 2 geckos


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## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

What rare frogs and geckos, Vivbulider?


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Pumilio and electric blue geckos


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Very nice. Post some full tank shots!!


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Wow 300 Views And 7 Replys


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

just put in the glass


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## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

Could you place pictures directly in this thread? That makes it more fun to follow your progress - a very interesting large tank!


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

i don't know how


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/53573-tutorial-how-upload-photos-forum.html


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

vivbulider said:


> i don't know how


I use Webshots also
Look for the "" Link to this picture"" section


Select the size you want I always like the 600 pixle size


highlight the post in Forums .. Copy link... Paste into forum


And You get Pictures on any Forum


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Can't really tell what's going on in there, that's probably why there aren't many replies, and all the pics are sideways. You put the plants in before the glass? What are the sides made of, looks like wood?


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

RMB said:


> Can't really tell what's going on in there, that's probably why there aren't many replies, and all the pics are sideways. You put the plants in before the glass? What are the sides made of, looks like wood?


 i dont know why the pics are sideways i'll try to fix that the plants are in there to see how they look there still in pots and yes the sides are wood with west system epoxy


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

RMB said:


> Can't really tell what's going on in there, that's probably why there aren't many replies


I'm thinking it's less that and more:



vivbulider said:


> I'm geting 4 leucs 4 tricolor 2 rare frogs 2 geckos


That's the only thing I'm going to say on the matter.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

just got new plants
Aechmea Primera/Fasciata
Tillandsia Cyanea-Anita
Vriesea Christiane
Vriesea Splenreit
Syngonium 'Confetti
and a fish hook plant


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I'm thinking it's less that and more:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the only thing I'm going to say on the matter.


I find it very humorous how there are always a certain type of people on these forums. There's the "tang police" on reef central and the "multispecies police" here.

That's the only thing I'm going to say on the matter.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I'm thinking it's less that and more:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the only thing I'm going to say on the matter.


this is a big tank with lots of plants. without the plants and the front this tank will have 40sqft of space or 5760sqin. with 12 herps thats 480sqin a herp or 3.33333sqft. the rule it one frog per 10g and the bottom back and sides of a 10g is 480sqin so it works out. plus they can't interbreed.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Unfortunately your logical reply will likely go ignored (but not by me). When people have an opinion set in their mind it is very difficult for them to change. And I've found this to be an opinion that is highly engrained in this section of herpetoculture. 

In any event, good luck on the build!


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

You're not getting any responses because this whole thing is utterly ridiculous. 

Remember this?
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/52271-mixed-tanks.html

How about this?
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/52271-mixed-tanks.html#post455730


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Occidentalis said:


> You're not getting any responses because this whole thing is utterly ridiculous.
> 
> Remember this?
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/52271-mixed-tanks.html
> ...


It's not utterly ridiculous, in fact it's not even regular ridiculous. The OP is attempting to describe a vivarium build.

I agree that it's a bit difficult to follow along with as the photos don't show in thread and are sideways if you follow the link. However, the OP's choice to mix species is exactly that: his choice. Just because YOU don't agree with that choice does not alter his right to make it. 

Say what you would like on the matter, but I would personally love to see more mixed tanks along the lines of what Eurpoean herp. culture has. Interbreeding (hybridizing is the incorrect term often used) between morphs/species is a different conversation altogether. Just housing different species together in a large vivarium shouldn't be so rilesome to so much of the dendroboard population.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Sigh. I agree with Mr. Biggs. What someone chooses to do is by right there own choice. You can warn them and tell them your personal feelings but then again its not your choice. A big scale example of "Mix" species would be Lions. If no one understands this then I will do a quick example. There is a rare species of lions where they are COMPLETELY white. Most scientists are trying to bring this recessive gene out. This is technicially mixing the SAME species to create another which has been proven in wild to be almost completely extinct. Mixing say Bronze and Blue aurturas with a Green and Black Aurturas is it really wrong to create more stable species which sure may be not found naturally in the wild. So whats the point of siding with one aspect of the chart while being completely on the other end?

Sorry went off on a tangent. None the less with that big of a tank it should be less of a problem of them stressing each other out. IME. I've seen it done in multiple enclosures within ZOO's.

Just another example are BOA's.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

I asked that so I could find out as much as I could you can never know to much I'm thinking of not geting geckos


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VenomR00 said:


> Sigh. I agree with Mr. Biggs. What someone chooses to do is by right there own choice. You can warn them and tell them your personal feelings but then again its not your choice. A big scale example of "Mix" species would be Lions. If no one understands this then I will do a quick example. There is a rare species of lions where they are COMPLETELY white. Most scientists are trying to bring this recessive gene out. This is technicially mixing the SAME species to create another which has been proven in wild to be almost completely extinct. Mixing say Bronze and Blue aurturas with a Green and Black Aurturas is it really wrong to create more stable species which sure may be not found naturally in the wild. So whats the point of siding with one aspect of the chart while being completely on the other end?
> 
> Sorry went off on a tangent. None the less with that big of a tank it should be less of a problem of them stressing each other out. IME. I've seen it done in multiple enclosures within ZOO's.
> 
> Just another example are BOA's.


A correction, 

White lions are not a different species..nor a different subspecies, they are a color mutation of P. leo krugeri. The ones currently in Zoos are from a small area of South Africa (Timbavati) where the fenced in game park caused genetic drift allowing for the aberrant gene to show up more frequently. The gene functions as a simple recessive and has been known to appear in the wild on random occasions where the gene frequency hasn't been skewed due to anthropomorphic reasons. (As a slight aside, there was even a children's cartoon which was based on manga from the 1950s.. to give a little historical perspective..) 

It is not even close to being extinct in Africa... 

Ed


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## sandiegoleu (Jun 2, 2009)

great info ed


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Why are you talking about interbreeding the frogs can't interbreed also I'm not geting geckos


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vivbulider said:


> this is a big tank with lots of plants. without the plants and the front this tank will have 40sqft of space or 5760sqin. with 12 herps thats 480sqin a herp or 3.33333sqft. the rule it one frog per 10g and the bottom back and sides of a 10g is 480sqin so it works out. plus they can't interbreed.


If I follow this, then this isn't necessarily equate to that amount of space per animal as the space is less important than the area that contains the appropriate resources for the affected animals. One has to look at food, reproductive sites (egg laying, calling, tadpole deposition, access to male or female (depends on species), temperature, humidity and shelter. If these are not evenly distributed across the potential region then the space available to the animals is going to be much much less. 

As a hypothetical example (not saying yours is this way) a poorly set up enclosure could actually only have one or two square feet total that is suitable say for the dart frogs which result in very significant problems. (One of the things to consider is that in territorial species, shape and behavior often trigger antagonisitic responses, while different shapes and behaviors do not) so when looking at multispecies enclosures with territorial species one should work with disparate as possible species that are zoogeographically correct. 
As a hypothetical example, one type of dendrobatid (regardless of whether or not they can hybridize or interbreed), one small treefrog species, possibly a small bufonid would be a selection that would mimize the risk of antagonistic behaviors between the dendrobatids as well as requiring different niches. 

Some generalized comments. 

Ed


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

I see what you are saying and I will have micro niches also I will have tons of broms and shot glasses for eggs I have a big contaner of dirt that's about a month old with tons of spring tails


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Ed said:


> If I follow this, then this isn't necessarily equate to that amount of space per animal as the space is less important than the area that contains the appropriate resources for the affected animals. One has to look at food, reproductive sites (egg laying, calling, tadpole deposition, access to male or female (depends on species), temperature, humidity and shelter. If these are not evenly distributed across the potential region then the space available to the animals is going to be much much less.
> 
> As a hypothetical example (not saying yours is this way) a poorly set up enclosure could actually only have one or two square feet total that is suitable say for the dart frogs which result in very significant problems. (One of the things to consider is that in territorial species, shape and behavior often trigger antagonisitic responses, while different shapes and behaviors do not) so when looking at multispecies enclosures with territorial species one should work with disparate as possible species that are zoogeographically correct.
> As a hypothetical example, one type of dendrobatid (regardless of whether or not they can hybridize or interbreed), one small treefrog species, possibly a small bufonid would be a selection that would mimize the risk of antagonistic behaviors between the dendrobatids as well as requiring different niches.
> ...


One of the best and most logical arguments against a multi-species tank that I've heard. And, in reality, your post doesn't scream 'anti!' it simply promotes responsible animal husbandry. Thank you very much for this reponse.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MrBiggs said:


> One of the best and most logical arguments against a multi-species tank that I've heard. And, in reality, your post doesn't scream 'anti!' it simply promotes responsible animal husbandry. Thank you very much for this reponse.


It wasn't meant as anti, just as how it should be looked at... see my very first thread on here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vivbulider said:


> I see what you are saying and I will have micro niches also I will have tons of broms and shot glasses for eggs I have a big contaner of dirt that's about a month old with tons of spring tails


How you placed the bromeliads and shot glasses doesn't automatically mean that they will be suitable or even accepted by the frogs. It also doesn't automatically mean that it will reduce territorial needs by the frogs to allow for sufficient cohabitation. You also need to incorporate things like sight barriers and areas where a chased animal can retreat from the aggression. Many multispecies enclosures do not incorporate these properly as they are often viewed as being unsightly or reducing visual appeal of the enclosure. Instead one of the best methods to avoid this in multispecies enclosures is to use species that do not look like or act like each other. 

If you can get access to an old copy of Terrariums Animals Breeding, Care and Manitenance by E. Zimmerman you can see one of the better diagrams for how to set up alternative breeding sites. 

Ed


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

i'm not trying to breed other then give them places to lay eggs and pulling out baby frogs i wont do anything


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

got a new plant its myrmecodia tuberosa or ant plant


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vivbulider said:


> i'm not trying to breed other then give them places to lay eggs and pulling out baby frogs i wont do anything


If the frogs' don't accept some or most etc of the sites, then the competition for the remaining sites becomes much higher. It doesn't matter if you are trying to breed them or not as in many dendrobatids, both species may guard access to reproductive resources regardless if they are actively breeding at that second or not as thier territories will attempt to encompass the resources needed for when reproduction starts. This guarding behavior is what triggers the aggression/territoriality. Simply having a bunch of potential sites scattered about the enclosure doesn't give any indication on how the animals are going to deal with them. This is where sight barriers and being able to get the correct niche requirements togther really comes into play even when using species that are not competing for the same resources. 

I have seen aggressive interations between at least two of the species you are proposing to house together over access to resources. 


Ed


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

You said that most people find sight barriers ugly as long as it's natural and not a big castle or fake plant I don't see how it's ugly I use plants wood rocks as barriers


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It depends on how the sight barrier is constructed, I was referring to the combination of both the sight barrier and the use of areas where the frogs can get totally out of sight of one another if chased. This can take up signficant portions of the enclosure as the sight barrier itself cannot have conditions that allow it to be used as a core part of the territory. A sight barrier is not a sight barrier if it has resources on it the frogs are going to use on a routine bases (such as being a calling perch, or having sleeping perches, or have egg deposition sites). People often find the combination of the sight barrier and refuge areas unsightly as you may have to exclude plants and egg deposition sites from those areas to prevent them from being contested areas. 

I'm getting the idea from the responses that the concept is either not explained well enough or that you are resisting the idea or both. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> I'm getting the idea from the responses that the concept is either not explained well enough or that you are resisting the idea or both.
> 
> Ed


Yeah me too, it's not meant to be an insult but the lack of experience probably is what's causing the disconnect. He probably needs to see pictures of successful huge mixed enclosures to really get the idea


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

ChrisK said:


> He probably needs to see pictures of successful huge mixed enclosures to really get the idea.


Which is something he's extremely unlikely to ever find posted on this board.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

ChrisK said:


> Yeah me too, it's not meant to be an insult but the lack of experience probably is what's causing the disconnect. He probably needs to see pictures of successful huge mixed enclosures to really get the idea


All the internet hobby forums are composed of mostly smaller scale, home based hobbyists and as such, have no room for huge vivaria to correctly attempt a decent "biotopic" environ....

May I suggests a zoological institution, for an example?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Start with something like this, the right size and planting with species that won't mess with each other too much: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37135-my-first-viv.html?highlight=leucs


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Got new plants hoya kentiana and some kind of Neoregelia also I can't decide on lighting it's between these two
Hydrofarm 8 Lamp 6500K 4' T5 Fluorescent Grow Light - Plantlighting Hydroponics
or
The Grow Lights Superstore


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

I'd say get two 48" 4-bulb T-5's, or two or three 150-175w metal halides... that way your lighting will actually cover the length of your tank. The two you showed would concentrate too much lighting on one spot, and not enough on others IMO. And, if you got multiples of the ones you posted, it'd just be overkill for dart frogs and most of the plants associated with them IMO. Your tank is the 96x24x25 size correct? 

I've got 260w total via two 36" 130w power compacts on my 125G (72x18.5x20.5 IIRC), and it's more than enough. I think 400w MH bulbs would be too concentrated and bright for dart frogs' liking, someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that. By my understanding, most PDF's are found in more of a dappled light setting (forest floor) with plenty of shade and little direct light.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

gtclipse01 said:


> I'd say get two 48" 4-bulb T-5's, or two or three 150-175w metal halides... that way your lighting will actually cover the length of your tank. The two you showed would concentrate too much lighting on one spot, and not enough on others IMO. And, if you got multiples of the ones you posted, it'd just be overkill for dart frogs and most of the plants associated with them IMO. Your tank is the 96x24x25 size correct?
> 
> I've got 260w total via two 36" 130w power compacts on my 125G (72x18.5x20.5 IIRC), and it's more than enough. I think 400w MH bulbs would be too concentrated and bright for dart frogs' liking, someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that. By my understanding, most PDF's are found in more of a dappled light setting (forest floor) with plenty of shade and little direct light.


no my tank is 4'x2'x4' i'm thinking about the t-5's but no free shiping


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

If it's that tall, you might want to go MH. I'm not really sure what bulb strength to go with a that height though, I'm only really familiar with tanks up to 24 high or so.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

i'm going to make this tank somewhat self sustaining with layers of Substrates
the bottom will be Hydroton then clay then dirt then leaf litter/twigs then there will be a long short refugium over the tank with 2" pvc pipe i will seed with pill bugs springs ffs and other things


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

i got the epoxy and i'm working on the background


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## Venomos (Jun 26, 2009)

Can you update with some more pics and insert them into the thread so its easier to follow? Just like to link the pic with what you are describing as you are doing it! Looking forward to more!


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

I found out hot to post pics but I have none


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