# Ghost Leuc - White



## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

In my most recent clutch, I got two leucs that have little or no coloring. Very pastel looking. White leucs? Ghost leucs?

See for yourself!


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## chrism (Apr 11, 2007)

I want some!!! They look wicked!

Did they look normal as tads, just not colour up?


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

They almost look like baby milkies to me.


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## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

Their parents are normal standard leucs, and I own no other frogs. I guarantee there is no milk hybrid here - if that would even be possible! But I agree, they do look like milks. 

The other one that isnt normal has slightly more coloring. This one though, is black and white practically!

No physical differences when they were developing. Just never were yellow. They eat fine just like their siblings


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

Very cool looking little guys, curious to see what they look like as they develop


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

"panda" leucs


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## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

Hmm.. interesting... Keep us updated on its progress


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## carbonetc (Oct 13, 2008)

Hopefully they're of opposite sexes. You could try breeding them a year from now and see what happens.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

I call dibs if you decide to sell them! I dont know if "dibs" works in the dart frog community like it does in the college "community" but its worth a shot!

Awesome frogs. It will be neat to see if the parents throw any more clutches like this.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

very interesting . luck you where did the adults come from?


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## Bob Fraser (Nov 21, 2007)

"Panda Leucs" ROFL . Very different, first time I've seen that in a Leuc.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

They look to be Aneryrythristic, someone just got the new must have frog, congrats!


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## Fishman (Jan 16, 2007)

Very cool! It will be interesting to see how survival is with these (any genetic issues that cause long term health problems). Do you know what line (breeder history) the parents came from?

Thanks for sharing, any photos of the other one?


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Fishman said:


> Very cool! It will be interesting to see how survival is with these (any genetic issues that cause long term health problems). Do you know what line (breeder history) the parents came from?
> 
> Thanks for sharing, any photos of the other one?


asked everything i was going to

itll be neat to see if they develop correctly..
do they act any different? 

if they consistently breed out like this, you could have a new morph on your hands!

we'll all be watching to see how things go


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## jon (Mar 12, 2008)

I wonder if this is a product of inbreeding through generations.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

It's important to try and not inbreed for this trait. Sure it's a cool looking frog, but it would be nice to keep this gene in the populations as it is now. I by no means think we need to blacklist them, but just as chocolate leucs should be kept with standard leucs....so should this.


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## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

eldalote2 said:


> I call dibs if you decide to sell them! I dont know if "dibs" works in the dart frog community like it does in the college "community" but its worth a shot!


Hey I'm in college too, which is why money>dibs haha! For now these four guys (two ghost white, one regular, one regular missing an arm) are not for sale. If i decide to put them on the market, Eldalote, I'll let you know. 



The parents came from LLL Reptile from NARBC Chicago in 2007 i believe. I have no history beyond that.


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## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

For the record, I had no intention of creating a new morph and I will try and figure out something so they are not inbred. I feel strongly against inbreeding wherever possible.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Lol. Did you get the one missing an arm with the same clutch of eggs? That must have been a surprise!

Yea you have to know the lingo in college. I believe the three most important ones are "Dibs" "Seat Back" and "Not It". We havent grown up much have we?


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

eldalote2 said:


> I believe the three most important ones are "Dibs" "Seat Back" and "Not It".


I believe you are forgetting the most important one . . . "safety" . . .


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## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

yeah, this clutch origionally had 6, and one leftover from a previous sale. Unfortunately, I lost two, and one had SLS. The other two clutches I had had almost no problems... Now this one was strange though!

Here are some more pictures...

Parents









Second ghost leuc, against same regular leuc









All three, feeding...


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## Brien (Aug 27, 2009)

I think that they will eventually develop the yellow pigment


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## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

brien said:


> I think that they will eventually develop the yellow pigment


For what reasons do you think this? Just out of curiosity.


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## Brien (Aug 27, 2009)

I had a leuc that was a lighter orange not as light as these but as he got older it got way darker


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

What is the lineage of your leaucs?


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## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

billschwinn said:


> What is the lineage of your leaucs?


Unknown. I bought them at 2007 NARBC Chicago from LLL Reptile. They are a volume dealer and probably dont have records of their origins. I could try and contact them though.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I've morphed out over 120 Leucs and at least 5-6 looked "washed out" or very similar to that one...

They all coloured back up. Sometimes froglets will have an orange hue to them as well and then they seem to grow out of that too.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

travisc said:


> Hahhaha, Angela I'll be co-investor on this potential purchase with you.


We can look you up in 1.8 years to see what happens -breeding wise.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i had 2 leucs turn out like this a while ago too. one of them didnt last a week and the other colored up after 2 months. they were neat while it lasted though. the one that died actually had kind of a greenish hue to it, kind of like a mint terribilis.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Seeing these pics on my pc and not my phone I agree. I think they will color up over time.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

What is your feeding schedule is like? I am asking because your frogs look a bit on the thin side. I know many people have the tendency to have obese frogs and I am not suggesting that, but I think they look like they could use a slight bulk up. I like to have some bulk as a buffer should any of my frogs get injured or sick they have slightly more heft to help them while they recover.


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## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

they all get fed about every other day. That feedng schedule works best with all of the herps I keep. The adults have been looking thin (adult female expecially) but I wonder if that had to do with the humidity I had going in there, somehow. I've been feeding about the same for years and she was never that thin.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Same feeding schedule I keep, hmm who knows maybe just has a faster metabolism.


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

wow that looks bada@$ i like the albino look of that better then the chocolate leucs


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Whats so great looking about it?

It looks washed out, dull and unattractive to me. Then again, one of my main attractions to these frogs is their vibrant colour. 

When my froglets appeared to look that way, I refused to transfer them because I did not want to pass on a poorly coloured animal. They darkened up finally and I did transfer them.....

I appreciate frogs, as well as reptiles when they most accurately look like their wild counterparts.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I agree with you for the most part Phil. One thing I would like to add though is that this is a trait that could appear in a wild leuc. While an abnormally colored trait doesn't represent the majority of the population, it is still something that probably does exist. They probably don't live very long though.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> I agree with you for the most part Phil. One thing I would like to add though is that this is a trait that could appear in a wild leuc. While an abnormally colored trait doesn't represent the majority of the population, it is still something that probably does exist. They probably don't live very long though.


and I knew this was going to be brought up about 8 seconds after I hit the submit bar.....

but you "get what I'm puttin' down" anyway, right?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

You know that I do


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

i dunno it just stands out to me just personal opinion i guess.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

If it doesnt color up it could wind up being some kind of recessive genes. Possibly axanthic, maybe an anery . . .


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jig1 said:


> i dunno it just stands out to me just personal opinion i guess.


Ultimately, thats it exactly.

The only problem I have with it, is that I would hope that the new people come into the hobby without the confusion of line breeding and hybrids - both of which will be fully available when they "stick" and become experienced with these wonderful animals, should they choose.....


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

i just really liked it in the pic in no way trying to imply or say hybrids are acceptable if I read the beginning of this topic correct it sounded to me that this was just a rare oddball trait that was passed on by two normal parents.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jig1 said:


> it sounded to me that this was just a rare oddball trait that was passed on by two normal parents.


absolutely correct IMO...

I just wanted to counter the sudden rush of people who were considering it the next "hypo tangerine spider caramel" or whatever......


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> absolutely correct IMO...
> 
> I just wanted to counter the sudden rush of people who were considering it the next "hypo tangerine spider caramel" or whatever......


understood.. I was not trying to come off that way or suggest that they should be line bred into the next "designer frog" or what ever term applies. I seen it as something that was a rare occurance that just happened and think it looks really neat is all


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

and was thinking it to be a healthy frog with no deformaties or any illnesses


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jig1 said:


> and was thinking it to be a healthy frog with no deformaties or any illnesses


and it may be.....your point now?


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

no point just posted what I thought


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## akraemer2 (Jan 3, 2010)

Just a quick comment that I'd like to add - mutations like this (or unusual traits, if you prefer) can greatly help biologists understand the genetic basis of the fantastic colors PDFs have. This definitely isn't something you want to lose. I'm a grad student working on the genetic basis of color polymorphism (different individuals having different color patterns in the same population) in Plethodon salamanders, but some day I hope to work on Dendrobatids! For my sake, keep them alive!  Good luck, anyway - even if they regain their yellow color, they are something special!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The change in pigmentation actually may not have anything to do with genetics as the lack of pigmentation may be due to inadequate sequestering of the appropriate carotenoids due to immune or other challenges. If the reports of the other people on the list hold true for these animals then once the metabolic issue is resolved, sequestering may resume resulting in pigmentation. 

I am not excluding the idea that there may be genetic components in the pigmentation of these frogs but I think the red coloration in Plethodon cinerus is solely due to pterins while coloration in leucomelas is probably going to be carotenoid or pterin/carotenoid. 

Ed


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## akraemer2 (Jan 3, 2010)

Ed said:


> The change in pigmentation actually may not have anything to do with genetics as the lack of pigmentation may be due to inadequate sequestering of the appropriate carotenoids due to immune or other challenges. If the reports of the other people on the list hold true for these animals then once the metabolic issue is resolved, sequestering may resume resulting in pigmentation.
> 
> I am not excluding the idea that there may be genetic components in the pigmentation of these frogs but I think the red coloration in Plethodon cinerus is solely due to pterins while coloration in leucomelas is probably going to be carotenoid or pterin/carotenoid.
> 
> Ed


Ed,

This may be very well true! I guess I got excited by the pics  
Have to wait and see I suppose...

-Andy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Andy,

I saw the excitement... It is true that we don't have as good a handle on the developement of color as there are a lot of other factors that can also come into play that disrupt proper color formation. There are even potential dietary effects other than carotenoids for example the isomer of hypoxanthine, allopurinol when fed in a sufficient level to axolotls causes a change in the number of melanopores by causing xanthopores and iridiopores to transform into melanopores. Given that we don't totally understand the effects that diet can have on pigmentation in amphibians, it is a sure bet that makes it harder to tease out the genetics in species that utilize carotenoids as pigments. 

It is easier when dealing with species that use only pterins (and melanin) as those pigments are not sequestered from the diet and are probably under feedback controls which would be genetic.. 

Ed


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Very cool looking dart. Reminds me of an amazon milk frog or a black and white comic. If it keeps the black and white color and you are interested in selling it please shoot me a PM.
Thanks


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## FutureFrogMan (Dec 2, 2008)

Albino Leuc?


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Ed said:


> The change in pigmentation actually may not have anything to do with genetics as the lack of pigmentation may be due to inadequate sequestering of the appropriate carotenoids due to immune or other challenges. If the reports of the other people on the list hold true for these animals then once the metabolic issue is resolved, sequestering may resume resulting in pigmentation.
> 
> I am not excluding the idea that there may be genetic components in the pigmentation of these frogs but I think the red coloration in Plethodon cinerus is solely due to pterins while coloration in leucomelas is probably going to be carotenoid or pterin/carotenoid.
> 
> Ed


Jinx.

Seriously though, I have seen too many yellow frogs come out brown/gray and color up over time to think that this won't happen here.


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## The_Greg (Sep 10, 2007)

Well we'll never know if they would color up. They both passed away today and yesterday. The mostly colorless one ate just yesterday, I saw it. 

The one armed "bandit" is still alive, as well as the normal colored and armed leuc.

RIP.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

too bad. Sorry bro


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## akraemer2 (Jan 3, 2010)

Too bad. There's always next time..


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