# Lamasii's Disappeared



## gthorpe2 (Jul 1, 2008)

I got 5 Lamasiis last March, and I've have not seen 2 for about 2 weeks now. Could they have eaten eachother? There is now way they could get out. Could the female eaten another female? I just havn't seen them and I'm just wondering if anyone else has had this problem?


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

ehhh

I have had 5 for about 3 weeks now ish and I don't see more then 3 out at once. I assume that all 5 are doing alright because i think I have seen some that the sizes are a little different but there is no way to know for sure.

I am hoping that as my tank fills in with plants and moss that they will be out a little more but I am not too worried about it.

You just have to provide the best habitat you can and make sure you have no escape routes and then don't worry about it too much.


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## MonkeyFrogMan28 (Feb 3, 2009)

gthorpe2 said:


> I got 5 Lamasiis last March, and I've have not seen 2 for about 2 weeks now. Could they have eaten eachother? There is now way they could get out. Could the female eaten another female? I just havn't seen them and I'm just wondering if anyone else has had this problem?


uuuumm...... they dont eat each other. . .


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## Reefer420 (Oct 18, 2009)

I see mine usually in the morning time or right before the lights go out, during the day they seem to hide pretty good. I have them in a 10g vert.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

well they definitly didnt eat each other but

i have 3 vents that i almost never see but sometimes see all 3 at once so i know theyre ok

i had 2 mantella that where even shyer but when i finally searched - 2 dead

so its kinda hit or miss
but i wouldnt worry yet


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## gthorpe2 (Jul 1, 2008)

I say this because I caught 3 of them one day, put them in a container and then kept them in with my Azureus for a day and I couldn't find the others. I put FF in there to lure them out, but nothing.


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

gthorpe2 said:


> I say this because I caught 3 of them one day, put them in a container and then kept them in with my Azureus for a day and I couldn't find the others. I put FF in there to lure them out, but nothing.


you do realize that by digging around in their tank you may be freaking them out more and thus making them hide more.


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## gthorpe2 (Jul 1, 2008)

Mine aren't really shy. They hear the front door closed, I have them in my living room, and they come out. I have them on a schedule and they all would come out.


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## ZeeMan (Sep 19, 2008)

I have 5 lamasii... I rarely see them...which is a pity because I love their pinstripes.
I'll see the top of their heads in the broms once in a while, but surprising they bred and transported a tad to the "pond".
My tank is starting to grow in real well, so that only means I'll see them even less.

My vents are pratically the same way, only usually I'll be able to spot one or two before they hop away.

Good luck, hope they are just hiding real well.
I don't think they could have eaten each other... their heads are way to small to completely swallow another frog.
If you had Pacmans... then that is another story... they are all mouth.

-Zee

afterthought- I agree with BOOSHIFIED... digging around their tanks will unsettle them and they have to readjust all over. I used to do that when I freaked out regularly when my frogs were not in sight.


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

Thought this would be a good thread to discus this:

I've had my orange lamasi for about a month now. I saw all 5 a few times the first few days but then only saw 3 at a time after that. 

About a week ago I saw 4 and was very happy. Well, tonight I saw all 5 and this is awesome because I know I must be doing some things right.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

I went through this same situation with a group of 10 vents that I had in a custom build viv. Very rarely did I ever see all 10 out at once...though I would often find 5 or so in a film canister during the orgy times.


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

Um, yea - You need to keep better track of what you have in the tank. By no means is this meant to be an admonishment, or a scolding. I was a little taken aback by the question "Do they eat each other?" coupled with I have such and such a number of Lamasi. You spent a lot of money on something you don't even know whether or not fratricide is possible.

Okay, enough of the wrist slapping, let me take off my habit and put away my ruler.

First thing you do, is break down the tank. Seriously. The reason I say this, is because based on the level of knowledge you have displayed, I wonder if you feed them enough. When a poison frog in the thumbnail category dies, you won't find anything unless you find a carcass. Three to four days, there is nothing to find. So break it down, find them all, and cup them. Look at each frog, and decide if they are scary skinny, or nice and fat.

Next, look at your tank. How big? Your best bet for five lamasi is a vertical ten gallon. I often tell people plant the heck out of it, keep it warm and wet, and feed twice as much as you think you should. Since you are obviously very new at this, my suggestion is give them hiding spots you can see, but will still give them piece of mind. The ability to shine a flashlight into the recesses of the tank, and look inside different things placed inside for hiding, has always worked for me in the past.

The very next thing you do is study up. Learn about these frogs, the different groups they belong to now, etc etc. Make sure you have at least ten to twenty cultures made every week, so that you are NEVER without food. Get some termites. Sorry, I am not allowed to say from who or where, but I am sure you can find them in the classifieds on this board. But I didn't tell you that.

Good luck.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of lamasi are they? Where did you get them?


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## MonkeyFrogMan28 (Feb 3, 2009)

^^^^ 100% Agree with the above


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

jgibeau said:


> Make sure you have at least ten to twenty cultures made every week, so that you are NEVER without food.


That sounds just a touch excessive for 5 frogs doesn't it? I would think you would have more than enough with making 2 cultures per week.


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

i dont agree with fully tearing apart the tank


If I did that with mine there would still be no guarantee that I find them all. I would need to cut open all the broms and sift through all of the moss and even then I might miss some.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

There is _no way_ I would put five or four for that matter, of even the smallest frogs in a 10 gallon enclosure no matter how well constructed or planted....


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> There is _no way_ I would put five or four for that matter, of even the smallest frogs in a 10 gallon enclosure no matter how well constructed or planted....


unless i missed something, he never said they were in 10g


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

I believe that Philsuma was referring to some of the horrible advice given a couple posts back.
Scott


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

I have 1.2 lamasi(and ?# of froglets) in a 24x18x24 exo, fully planted and I never see them, unless I look behind the background which is where they spend a majority of their time. If I wake up early enough(before 8am) I can catch 1 or 2 hopping around in the viv. 
Maybe get a flashlight and search inside broms at night to see if you can spot them?
Thom O.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

jgibeau said:


> First thing you do, is break down the tank. Seriously. The reason I say this, is because based on the level of knowledge you have displayed, I wonder if you feed them enough. When a poison frog in the thumbnail category dies, you won't find anything unless you find a carcass. Three to four days, there is nothing to find. So break it down, find them all, and cup them. Look at each frog, and decide if they are scary skinny, or nice and fat.


Look for you lamasi at night/30 min or so after lights out as they seem they may have crepuscular habits. If the frogs all are still alive, there is no reason to destroy the tank and stress them out. For the most part, if your husbandry is right (and if you've had the frogs for almost a year you are probably okay) the frogs are most likely fine. Staying the heck out of the way will help your frogs more than you know.



> Next, look at your tank. How big? Your best bet for five lamasi is a vertical ten gallon.


A 20 gallon is probably a better bet for 5 thumbnails.


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

boombotty said:


> I believe that Philsuma was referring to some of the horrible advice given a couple posts back.
> Scott


whoops

didnt see that


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Depending on the morph, how well the viv is planted, placement of the viv (high traffic versus low traffic) and age of the group, your lamasi will demonstrate differing degrees of shyness. Breeding activity can increase boldness but not always.

I would not recommend tearing down the viv. If you see frogs from time to time odds are all are doing well. Not a guarantee but no reason to disrupt the ones that are fine. Plus you run the risk of accidentally discarding that lump of moss, piece of plant etc. that just happens to have a thumbnail wrapped up in it.

Finally I agree that the advice of putting 5 lamasi in a 10 gallon setup is not preferred. They might do okay but no reason to crowd them. 

Best of luck.

Bill


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

*Re: Lamasi's Disappeared*

Gotta love it when some new guy refers to advice from someone he does not know as "horrible".

*Especially* when I have had, bred out and sold more lamasi than that individual has ever seen. 

I have broken down and discarded more TYPES of frog tanks (meaning types of tanks, as in what was done to make it a frog tank) than this guy will most likely ever see. I don't know why I am even bothering responding to a *rookie *off the cuff comment like that.

*ANYWAY*, to answer the statement made saying that two cultures a week should be plenty, think of this. You make two cultures a week. Okay. Then two weeks in a row, for whatever reason, those two cultures crash. Can you say *Amplexus!!!* in the filthiest term you can imagine?

Now, if you make twenty cultures a week, and something wipes half your cultures, or one box of cultures goes TU, you have another box. Redundancy in dart frogs is _ALWAYS_ a good thing.

Just for those who have no idea who I am, (meaning you got into poison frogs after Summer 05) I have been keeping and breeding poison frogs since 1996. I took a four year hiatus from them to rejoin the Army and go kill bad guys. Why? Bad guys needed killing, that's why. I am not a tree hugger, or a hippie, I am not usually soft spoken nor do I spend a lot of time talking nicey nice with idiots. I say what needs to be said, and if you don't like it, tough. People used to think I was a major jerk, that I was mean, that they would hate me, then a large number of folks met me, and surprise, I am actually really nice, and they were just adding inflection to what they were reading.

_Now, *go break down your tank*, or you are gonna worry about it to no end, while *dingalings* here debate whether or not you should make 2 cultures or 4, because they think riding Ockham's razor is fun where your fruit fly culture success is concerned._

Now, focus on me, because I have been where you are right now. 

It's is not about the brom's or the plants. It is about the frogs. Open the lid. With scissors, start cutting away the excess foliage, CAREFULLY. As you remove each piece, close the lid, move that piece to a tub of some kind, and go through it. When you are satisfied, move that foliage piece to a different tub. Repeat. Break down your tank. *ALL THE WAY*. Find and catalog every frog. Verify their weight. Look under their chins and verify their sex. If you don't know how that is done, send me a PM, I will tell you the trick. 

Once they are all found, or you are all done, whichever comes first, rebuild the tank. New plants. New foliage. Try leaf litter this time for terrestrial hiding places for them perhaps, since contrary to current popular belief, lamasi are not _necessarily_ arboreal. Give them piece of mind, while maybe not creating a plant cube. (Where the plants grow in so thick that they literally create a tight cube of foliage, which, believe or not, over time, can actually kill your frogs. I had it happen to a tank of ventrimaculatus.) If you keep the plants nicely trimmed, they will stay smaller, allow more light into the tank, and keep the air circulation in the tank higher.

Do frogs like I invest money; Go through the standard and Poor's. Only pick companies that have been around for at least thirty years, have an "A" rating, and have NEVER missed a dividend. (Even during the current administration.) 

What I am trying to say, is get your info from the ones with the experience. 

Some names for you. *Todd Kelly. Christine Hanson. Tor Linbo. Mark Pulawski. Phil Tan. Darren Meyer. Jon Werner. Justin Yeager. Dr Frye, and his brother. Black Jungle. Myself. Adam Butts. Alexander Stubbs. Sean Stewart. Patrick Nabors. Greg and Amanda Sihler. Aaron Handzlik. Ed Kowalski. Tracy Hicks, if he is still around. You can probably still find him through his artwork, and thusly, get the good advice you need.*

Avoid morons who think good advice is a line or two, and a know nothing quip about a post they didn't like, because it does not match up with the rote they have memorized, and the crap they like to parrot because it makes them look good.

I am just trying to help you out. Your level of dedication is what is going to propel you to learn and grow.


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

*Re: Lamasi's Disappeared*



jgibeau said:


> ...while *dingalings* here debate whether or not you should make 2 cultures or 4, because they think riding Ockham's razor is fun where your fruit fly culture success is concerned.[/I]


A bit sensitive to people disagree with us aren't we? 20 cultures per week for 5 thumbs is not just being safe, it is stockpiling for froggie-armageddon. The amount of waste would be off the chart. I usually start 1 culture for every 4 frogs I am feeding, every 7-10 days, depending on the type of flies being cultured. There is a lot of variation depending on your stock, the culture media and temps, but that works for me. If you have a crash (which with decent husbandry is rare) you can get a replacement from some of the fine forum sponsors in no time. Better yet, hopefully you have a couple friends nearby who can float you a culture or two until some of yours start producing again. Healthy frogs don't starve to death in 4 or 5 days.

Now I wash my hands of this senseless debate because it had nothing to do with the original question.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Chill out JG. This is what happens when you get in the hobby, stay a year or two and disappear for 2 or 3 years.

You're on at least your third cycle during the time I've been in the hobby.

Of course people are going to question who you are. Very few of them remember you.

s


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

Maybe "horrible" was a bad choice of word, I appologize. It just sounded like bad advice to me telling someone who is pretty new to cram 5 frogs in a 10g and make at least 20 ff cultures a week for them.
Scott Bryant


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

Scott McDonald?

Hey man, good to see your still around. Personality wise, I have not changed all that much. I am still the guy that invited you into his house on the other side of the country, etc etc.

My point in all this thread, is this: The gentleman who started the thread asked a question that demonstrated a scary lack of knowledge in regards to the frogs. It was a question that warranted starting ALL over for him, so he could be sure that he had things right. You of all people know that regardless of how I come on in a thread, I am there for the thread, and to help. As soon as I offered advice, everyone who had not really offered anything else, more attacked the advice than offering additional advice. My advice was sound.


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

Hey Scott. I decided years ago that a ten gallon for all your thumbnail froglets, up to about six to ten, was fine - It allowed more condensing of the food, and better observation ability. Three or four film canisters attached to the sides of the viv on each side provide numerous hiding places, and the frogs often congregate in one canister. Later, when they start to approach maturity, you will see males out on top of the canister and calling. This will then allow you to start choosing froglets to pair up and move into another viv. (Of course, you can always just take all those with a connected throat pattern and pair them each with one with a non connected throat pattern...)

Anyway, I am just noticing that things have gotten a little more complicated than they were a few years ago, and most likely not necessary.

Oh, and to the guy who was talking about the "amount of waste" - You don't re-use your fruit fly culture containers?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I agree with most everything you said (with possibly the amount of ffs cultures you use as the exception  - but then again, last I saw your cultures were smaller).

It's the way you said it - and the fact that you expected people to _know_ who you are, that turned off a few people.

Also, as much as I respect and admire Alexander Stubbs, he hasn't kept a frog in over three years. He might not be a good example to use.

I don't think it was the message that is being dissed so much as the delivery.

Having said that - it's good to know you're still around and apparently doing well.

s


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

FYI...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/trading-post/49724-3-lamasi-tank.html


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

pl259 said:


> FYI...
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/trading-post/49724-3-lamasi-tank.html


 
It's almost like we have to do forensic frogging to figure out how to help this guy......pretty frustrating.......


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

To the OP

I see you want to get something bigger. Something that you can see.

You'll probably end up with Tincs of some sort.

You're gonna need a hundred cultures on hand LOL 

We have quite a few and can they EEAAATTTTT!!!

Not each other though


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

Keeping frogs is sortof like riding a bike. Just because you haven't kept any for a little while, does not mean you forget. It simply is NOT complicated.

Alexander is a wonderful name to use, because when you are as smart as that kid is (He will always be the kid I thought was a girl when he called to see if the NW dendrobates society was "open" to the public. I think he was 13 or 14) with the passion he always demonstrated, "forgetting" is not something that happens to someone with his "genetics." (Scott, you know exactly what I am talking about. That kid is freakishly amazing.)

I have given my advice to the original poster. Scott is right, people don't like my way of delivering information without the candy coating, or the pretty wrapping. BUT, It should be hard to say "No" to success.

Anyway, thanks for being glad that I am okay Scott. I hope to see you again one of these days.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Sorry to read all your posts. I hope your frogs are all ok. However, if you had two die you can do a search and read the hundreds of others on here who have also had a frog die....you are not alone. 

Don't take the lashing personal. Being a veteran I often see those who are retired have a hard time transitioning to "civilian" world and relating to those who are not so....up tight. 

Let us know if you find them all or not. This is actually a concern I have with my 90 gallon build. If someone thinks I am going to tear down my tank every 4 days (since they will be a carcass in just 4 days) to put my frogs "toe to the line", they have to be out of their mind. If you think I am bad because I am putting them in such a large tank and not hunting them every day, I can't understand why you want to take them out of their habitat and put them into an even smaller cage. What is more cruel? 

Ok, since there are no bad guys who need killin, *I will go back to my happy place* (sorry, I needed something in bold).


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

There's no need to bring anything military into this thread.

Not becoming of you at all, to key on a members signature like that.

I TOTALLY agree with the eventuality of a tank teardown and I perform them on a yearly basis on most of my vivs that aren't complex. There is nothing cruel about this. In this case - an accurate attempt at accounting of the frogs is necessary.

I'm not sure Lamasi were an ideal choice for first frogs - if indeed they were his first frogs.....

They only part of this thread that I disagree with, is the 10 gallon size.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> There's no need to bring anything military into this thread.
> 
> Not becoming of you at all, to key on a members signature like that.


^exactly

he may have come across as harsh in his advice but he gave more then the standard answer and apparently has been around the PDF block a few times

I got no problem with someone giving me advice, even if it seems harsh, if its still helpful and informative


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## jgibeau (Aug 19, 2008)

I will try to be less harsh. I just get passionate about people being successful with this hobby.


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## MonkeyFrogMan28 (Feb 3, 2009)

jgibeau said:


> I will try to be less harsh. I just get passionate about people being successful with this hobby.


That is not a problem, I wish everyone was like that. I am taking all this in (dendroboard) so in a year or 2, I can be successful in the poison dart frog hobby. I started with Caudates, now tree frogs and learning about PDF's. I really want to specialize in mantellas and thumbs. I am passionate about my hobbies. I wish some would listen and offer advice instead of knit picking which starts fights. My knowledge of PDF's is minute to many on here but I am open to advice and criticism . Just wanted to chime in.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks everyone for maintaining a civil and constructive discussion. Nice to see these things work themselves out positively.


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