# bad day! :( :( :(



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i went to pick up some frogs at the tampa show, and was going to look for a pair of williamsi and possibly some bufo alvarius. there was only one table with the williamsi and they were all males (and $45ea!!!) too expensive and no females so i passed, no luck on the river toads either, i picked up my 2 mints and left and it was HOT! the thermometer read 98F. i got to the car and let it cool with my ac (which works on and off) and it worked OK but not great. i put the frogs in the shade on my lap(instead of the hot car) for the 20 minute drive and about 10 minutes in the AC started blowing HOT! i rolled the windows down and by the time i was 5 minutes away both were no longer moving. i sped home and kept them as cool as possible, but to no avail. they were both DOA. 

moral of the story... make sure the AC works well i guess 

james


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

omg...That is so terrible! I'm so sorry.


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

yeah, for all those reading this. whenever you go to pick up frogs somewhere, bring a cooler. in the winter this can be used with heat packs to keep temps up, and in the summer this and some cool gel packs can help keep temps down.

i've had close calls with this a couple times and fortunately haven't lost frogs due to it, but this serves as a reminder that it can and does happen.

coolers, folks. bring coolers.


sorry to hear about your mints... that sucks.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Man that sucks !
I had a salamader overheat in the car once while in N carolina. i took it out and held it up to the ac for like ten minutes , massaging its chest with my finger every minute or so. It came back to life and lived in a natural history museum for years . . .

Next time if its going to be hot bring a styro with an ice pack or two, Thats what I do when I go to shows. Dont wanna risk it . . .

sorry about your loss


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## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

*Edit*
I hit the reply button too late... others posted about the cooler thing already.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ive transported frogs w/o coolers MANY times and im a FL native so i know how hot it gets, but it was shocking how quickly it happened particularly since the convention center was already a sweltering temp.

i shouldd add that the AC not working was a bit unexpected as well, its been working well lately, (but has had problems in the past)

james


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Maybe the frogs were already overheating by the time you got them. The hot car was just the icing on the cake for them.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Like others said, always bring a cooler and ice packs in the heat. Why risk it with such jewels? Just because it has not happened before does not mean it wont ever happen. 

It is a hard lesson to learn and I am sorry you had to learn it. 

Slightly off topic, but 45$ for williamsi? OMG I would love to pay that for one. Here we pay 50 to 100 dollars for them. :/


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

male williamsi have been getting very cheap under $20 US recently. pairs generally sell for 70 -90 US.

james

it was a mistake i wont make again.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

James, I don't know what to say but wow!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Hey man if you still have the frogs, put them in the tank or in something...they might still be alive, i've seen frogs come back from heat stroke over 24 hours later, they look dead, no breathing....nothing. 

Then they come back...had this happen with darts/mantella, and lizards in similar situation as yours. There may still be hope if you havent tossed them yet. Dont expose them to anything very cold though, mid-high 60's probably as cold as u should go. You dont want to shock them...give them a light misting maybe...dont drench them...and give them atleast 24 hours, i think i had one animal comeback after 36 hours or something like that once.

Sorry to hear about that though...sux, been there.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Really sorry about that James, Mints are hard to come by these days!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

billschwinn said:


> James, I don't know what to say but wow!


yea i dont know either. its definately not your fault in any way (i want to make that clear) just an unfortunate event



Dendro Dave said:


> Hey man if you still have the frogs, put them in the tank or in something...they might still be alive, i've seen frogs come back from heat stroke over 24 hours later, they look dead, no breathing....nothing.
> 
> Then they come back...had this happen with darts/mantella, and lizards in similar situation as yours. There may still be hope if you havent tossed them yet. Dont expose them to anything very cold though, mid-high 60's probably as cold as u should go. You dont want to shock them...give them a light misting maybe...dont drench them...and give them atleast 24 hours, i think i had one animal comeback after 36 hours or something like that once.
> 
> Sorry to hear about that though...sux, been there.


ive got them in the deli cup. but they have not moved, i think these guys are done for sure 

james


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

That sucks, but it happens. The only thing I have lost are a couple of blood pythons due to the heat whenI was diving home from daytona a few years back. The little foam cooler has not left my car since. I always have it incase.

Michael


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

JAMES!!!!!!!!!! Sorry to hear that.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Man, that's awful... I've never really read much like this but just happened to have a styrofoam box with phase 22's (for shipping an ornate bichir on Monday) and heard the Hamburg show gets hot as all hell, so I grabbed it walking out the door. Probably saved my ace.

Yea, no williamsi at all at Hamburg, I was disappointed.. wish my CB was a female though hahah


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

might set the deli cup with the lid off in the tank...that way if the wake up they arent trapped if you're asleep or something. Like i said give em atleast 24 hours if not more. I cudnt believe how long mine were in a coma or whatever and then came out of it...miricle frogs/geckos 


good luck


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

James, sorry to hear about the frogs.

I've been taking a slightly larger container (or 3-4) with me to shows packed with very moist sphagnum. I keep them in a cooler, and transfer the frogs from the deli cup as soon as I get to the car. So far this seems to work, and I've seen outside temps of 98F on the way home from Daytona....


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## NMiamiguy40 (Feb 23, 2010)

sorry to hear about your loss James. That is sooo lame. Ive been to a Tampa show in Manatee County a couple years ago and it was real hot in there.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

James come to sarasota and I will send you home with a smiley face instead, Lamasi tads..


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I'm really sorry to hear that James.

A question for others. When transporting frogs in a cooler with cold packs, how do you prevent them getting too cold? I assume you'd put a towel or something between the cold pack and the container, but what are the minimum safe temperatures?


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

I go with a larger cooler with fewer cold packs. You could also use the cold packs that Josh' Frogs sell that are supposed to stay in the correct temp ranges along with a few cold packs depending on just how hot it is. Dying from heat exposure after the stress of a dhow is not uncommon. Just really sucks. 
I don't know the safe temp ranges. Those safe ranges may be narrower too given their stress level so that's a hard call.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i want to stress again that that the frogs were good size and in great health from bill and the situation was solely because of the heat in the car. 

i diddnt bring any phase 22 or that would be my first choice.

james


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

JimO said:


> I'm really sorry to hear that James.
> 
> A question for others. When transporting frogs in a cooler with cold packs, how do you prevent them getting too cold? I assume you'd put a towel or something between the cold pack and the container, but what are the minimum safe temperatures?


The term "cold" pack is misleading. They should not be frozen or even chilled. Just room temperature is fine. They will help keep things stable, temp wise, because the gel will absorb the heat (instead of your frogs )

Placing a damp paper towel over the gels and frog cups will help keep things cool for a while too, just from the cooling effects of evaporation.


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## Jutti (Mar 10, 2008)

So sorry for you. Coolers are important. Another thing to remember is that even with the AC on, sunlight coming directly through glass and hitting the containers your frogs are in can cause overheating. 

I use a white styrofoam cooler and have gel packs just in case. Note, I keep the gel packs wrapped in towels so they aren't in contact with the containers holding the frogs. I also have a thermometer to monitor temps so I can make adjustments as necessary. 

Most of the time I haven't needed the gel packs., the styrofoam cooler works okay. I find that our frogs can tolerate cold better than heat.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

james67 said:


> i didnt bring any phase 22 or that would be my first choice.
> james



Yeah, Phase 22 or any other PCM, with a styrofoam shipper, is my first choice too. It's the same setup for hot or cold transport. The only concern I might have is being able to precondition the PCM for hot transport. It needs to soak in cool water or go in a fridge. In the event these might not be available, I'd bring along a couple ice packs.

Sorry about the DOAs


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

pl259 said:


> Yeah, Phase 22 or any other PCM...


_Any_ other PCM will not do. It needs to be a PCM with a phase change right around 70F or so, a PCM that changes at 100F or one that changes at 0F will be pointless, make sure it's the right kind of PCM.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes, you're right Clayton. Thanks for the clarification. I was refering to other brands like Saf-T-Pak.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

For local transport, an inexpensive method of controlling the temperature in a cooler or similar insulated container is by using one or more 2 liter or larger containers filled with cool (not too cold) water. The thermal mass of the water is pretty significant and is really an inexpensive way to control temperatures. 
As the container isn't being shipped the weight really isn't a factor and the containers can be reused. In a pinch, one can always use plastic soda bottles.... 

Ed


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

pl259 said:


> Yes, you're right Clayton. Thanks for the clarification. I was refering to other brands like Saf-T-Pak.


*I* knew what you meant, but here on the interwebs it's best to be as explicit as possible. I'd rather not read the thread next year about how somebody heard that any PCM would do the trick, and now their frogs have been roasted to a well-done temp.


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

im really sorry dude
-scotty


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

all i can say is, its been HOT here in the SE. im back in savannah and the "feels like" heat index has been between 100- 110F

thank god i installed a window AC unit last year as the house unit has gone out and i dont think all the frogs would have made it. 

it sucks but its a lesson learned. like i said before, ive driven NUMEROUS times with frogs in the car w/o any cooler (just placed in the shade w/ the AC on) in FL and other hot areas and had no issues, but it was just too hot this time. the moral of the story is... cooler and pcms or bottles of cool water, which is how i got the tads back to GA safe and sound (thanks again mark)

james


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Catfur said:


> *I* knew what you meant, but here on the interwebs it's best to be as explicit as possible. I'd rather not read the thread next year about how somebody heard that any PCM would do the trick, and now their frogs have been roasted to a well-done temp.


Absolutely.


In addition to cool bottles of water, other types of thermal mass include gel packs and cricket gel. UE uses cricket gel in doubled ziplock bags to make up the thermal mass and less leak worries.


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