# 1st clutch. Good start-bad ending. Some help, please.



## pako (Apr 30, 2015)

Hallo dendroboard members.
I need your help and guidance once more.
On 9th of June I found the first clutch of eggs (pic 1) of my d.leucomelas. on a petri dish under the coconut. I pull out the petri so I can watch what's going on and because in this tank there are snails.
Although I was ecxpecting infertile eggs luckily 3 of them showed signs of development (pic.2). The infertile were removed with surgical blade and forceps without harming the fertile ones. A few days later one of them went bad but 2 of them kept on developing for 11 days and were moving until yesterday. But last night I noticed this yellow mass (pic 3 and 4) under their bellies but there was still movement. Today they are both dead (pic 5).
Any ideas of what is this yellow mass coming out of their bellies and why it happened?? 
I got a new clutch and I dont know what I should do to prevent this from happening again.
The first clutch was in the petri with the cup and R/O water that had tannins of catappa leaf. I opened the petri every morning and evening for air exchange and water change. All I can think of is the high temperature of 29 Celcius so I moved the new clutch to the basement where its cooler.
I would really appreciate any suggestions and sorry for the long post.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

First clutches are almost always bad. They may start to develop and then die. It's not uncommon.

Regarding the mass I am not sure, and yes 29C is way too warm. 22-24C would be much better.


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## pako (Apr 30, 2015)

Thank you Erikm.
I was thinking that bad first clutches were all about infertile eggs and not firtilised that come to a point and then die. Glad to know.
Lets see what happens to the next one. 3-4 out of 7 are fertilised and already started to develop. The temperature is 25 Celcius. I will let you know about the progress.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

pako said:


> Thank you Erikm.
> I was thinking that bad first clutches were all about infertile eggs and not firtilised that come to a point and then die. Glad to know.
> Lets see what happens to the next one. 3-4 out of 7 are fertilised and already started to develop. The temperature is 25 Celcius. I will let you know about the progress.


Awesome, good luck with this clutch but do not worry if again they die off. It can happen for a few clutches.


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## scotty1212 (Feb 15, 2016)

Bummer on the eggs....but as everyone said the first clutch usually is bad. At least they are still laying eggs so you should get a healthy batch soon. Good luck. 
-Scott


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

giving them proper nutrition may help as well....if that is not already being done...but I've had a lot of bad early clutches as well....especially with my terriblis...


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## pako (Apr 30, 2015)

thank you all. I got 2 pairs in the leucomelas vivarium. The second clutch is from the 2nd female I suppose 'cause only a few days passed since the first one.
I feed them melanos, hydeis and occasionally bean beetles all of the above dusted. I also provide them with springtails.


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## pako (Apr 30, 2015)

Hi again. I try to provide as many information as I can.
Well, 2 eggs of the 2nd clutch are developing. The tads are still inside the egg but one of them looks like it has a ....bubble??....at its belly. Looks like a sack of air and the tad is moving. Here is a picture where you can see the sack and next a tad at the same age (same clutch) that doesn't have anything similar.

Is it normal?? Is it a certain problem that I have to care for?? Looking forward for your advice and opinion. Thank you.


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## Adirondack Chinchillas (Feb 26, 2015)

Your tadpoles look more on the grayish side? Yes? I'm using my phone but they look off color to me. I have had pretty good success with my leuc tadpoles and all are a dark brown when they are developing. I tend to use a deli container. Paper towels at the bottom that are misted and Petri dish on top. I close the lid and leave them alone for several days. Then I'll take a peek and mist the Petri dish. What are you using for supplements?


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## pako (Apr 30, 2015)

I have never seen tadpoles again so its difficult to tell but if I compare to other pictures on the web, yes I could say they are more light coloured. Today both tads are moving as well. I keep this clutch the same way as you. 

I dust every meal with zoomed reptivite with D3 which has a ratio of Vitamin A: D3 : E  100:10:1 (or 10:1:0.1). This ratio is the proposed one as I read in threads in here. It was impossible to find extra vitamin A to provide.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

First clutches shouldn't always be bad, that is an indication that there is a problem with husbandry often in vitamin A deficiencies. 

The swollen bubble on the tadpole is commonly a sign of insufficient vitamin A reserves in the yolk. This lack results in the improper formation of the pronephros (beginning of the kidney) which impacts the tadpoles ability to osmoregulate in the eggs. You need to use a supplement with a source of preformed vitamin A, for the adults (and I would suggest a better diversity of carotenoids). 

I would also argue that unless you've tightly sealed the enclosure so overheating was a risk that 22 C would be too cold and you should shoot for about 25-27 C. 

some comments 

Ed


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## pako (Apr 30, 2015)

Thank you Ed for the precious infromation.
Yes it looks like there is an osmolarity problem. I thought that if it is abnormal to present a sack like this as a tad then it is probably something that has to do with the kidneys. ( i work in health care and a few things are quite familiar to me).
I will try to find shops abroad that can send products to Greece. Hope to get some vitamin A.

p.s. 


Ed said:


> the pronephros (beginning of the kidney)


You don't have to explain "pronephros". It's a greek word meaning "pre-kidney" (pro-=pre- , nephros=kidney)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

No problem (I tend to include the definitions as I've had others who read the threads complain about having to decipher novel words and phrases). 

If you can't get a good supplement that already contains a source of preformed vitamin A you can instead include a weekly dusting with a ground dry vitamin A (should have either retinyl palmitate or retinyl acetate) as an ingredient. Using the human grade as a weekly dusting was common before the development of the Repashy brand products. 

somme comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

As usual....you deliver...


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## pako (Apr 30, 2015)

Ed said:


> If you can't get a good supplement that already contains a source of preformed vitamin A you can instead include a weekly dusting with a ground dry vitamin A (should have either retinyl palmitate or retinyl acetate) as an ingredient. Using the human grade as a weekly dusting was common before the development of the Repashy brand products.
> Ed


This is very good news! 
I had no idea hobbyists used to offer human grade vit A. I will buy some and start offering to the frogs till I find and get the rephasy product. 
I will post the composition I find here.
Thanks a lot!


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## parrothed43 (Jun 22, 2016)

Hi All,

Like Pako, I also received my first clutch around the 9th of June from my Vents (French Guiana Yellow Morph). 4 of the 7 began to develop but after starting to look like tads, they died off one by one. Now understanding many first clutches go bad, I have not gotten any new clutches. First was in a film canister. The male calls from time to time. Some days are almost non-stop calling for hours and other days not at all. 

Any thoughts on what I can do to increase the frequency of breeding?

Thanks!


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## pako (Apr 30, 2015)

Finally, 3-4 days later no tad was alive. The good news is that I found a store in Germany that has Rephasy Vitamin A plus and I have already placed an order. Hopefully I will get some soon.
Do I need to provide vit A more frequently now that I know there is a deficiency? Or should I go with the one-per-month dusting with A from the start?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

What is your risk tolerance for your frogs? In cases where there are a lot of deficiency issues, you can use it as often as once a week (more often only under the supervision of your veterinarian) but many people feel more comfortable if they do it once to twice a month due to the old claims of risk from vitamin A toxicity. 

some comments 

Ed


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