# The Frog Room (rises again)



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

As some of you know - I had to sell (or give away - a LOT!) everything frog related that I owned. Once upon a time I had roughly 50 tanks - by the time I was in selling mode late last Summer - I was down to about 20 or so tank. But I sold everything.

And then I moved 2,800 miles. Maine to Arizona - just a LITTLE change in my life, but I'm much happier now - thank you for asking. 

And since we all know that "Once in to frogs, never out of frogs ... ", it was inevitable that I would start over.

Starting Point:









First Rack (and first tanks):









Second Rack (able to remove duplicate set of middle legs using an "S Hook") - more tanks:









Full rack of tanks (All Protean tanks - 16.5 x 17 x 18 - roughly 22g). An empty shelf is left for future expansion:









I'm expecting frogs in two weeks - and yeah, those tanks are all empty at the moment. I've got a little work to do.

As mentioned - these are all Protean tanks - feel free to PM me for details.

It's nice to be "back".


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Okay great . . . enough with the chit chat . . . fill those bad boys up! 

And welcome back!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm ticked off - my Double LED light from one power source is back ordered, until March.

I need these in March damnit!

I'll likely just pick up a 4 foot T8 to tide me over.

s


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

I thought we were going to DIY those lights??


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Good looking set-up.....


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Looking good, Scott.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Thank you. I have been in the hobby many years (15+). While what I sold off was a combination of this and that - I KNEW what I wanted this time. It's interesting (and somewhat exhilarating) to be able to start over again but having the accumulated knowledge of many years in the hobby guiding me this time.

s


Azurel said:


> Good looking set-up.....


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Nice! I cant wait for mine. 
Could we get a close up on how they are hooked together with the S hook? Also, what all is going on top of those? It just looks like the tanks are relatively low set for the height of the poles.

p.s. you find an alternative to the closed cell foam that isnt like $40 a yard? (from your facebook post on ptd and the comments)


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## Kaity (Sep 18, 2010)

Scott, I'm curious what you will do differently this time vs. when you started? Just the top few changes would be great for us just starting out!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Steve - I'll take a picture once the lights cycle back up. The rack time is behind the racks. Short answer is - I'm using LED lights. My main reason for doing this is because I now live in Tucson, AZ and waste heat is so *not* desirable. They have a VERY low profile - actually, the room you do see there is more for the (forthcoming) misting nozzles than the LED lights.

Oh - haven't looked in to the foam yet. There are some fabric places around here so I need to look at the link Christina provided and try to find something suitable locally.

Kaity - I need to think on that one a bit. I'll post a bit more, but the most obvious point is finding the right size tank(s) and getting them on the right sized racks. This is my business office as well (I work full time from home), so I want the tanks to be full functional for the frogs, but to be neat in appearance without frog gear spread out all over the place (which describes my old frog room pretty well - I'll include a picture of it below).

The picture was too wide so I'm switching this to a link:
Ye old frog room (Frog Room Version 1 if you will):

s


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Wherever did all those cubes go, I wonder...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

They've gone to good use I'm told ...

s


stemcellular said:


> Wherever did all those cubes go, I wonder...


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Looking good Scott!


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Can't wait to see it all set up! You go!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Wish I had room for a frog room. It's gonna be awesome. I'll just live vicariously through the rest of you guys' frog room pics.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Well Susan - this would be more properly called my Frog Office. 

s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

A few promised pictures ...

The LED Lighting. VERY low profile. I like it. We'll see if they produce enough light for the plants:









The vent across the top of the tank (taken from inside of the tank):









The S Hook - eliminates the need for the 2nd set of legs (you can see the empty hole for it) on racks that are side by side:


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Scott said:


> Well Susan - this would be more properly called my Frog Office.
> 
> s


Aha---so that will make my frog-room deprivation more bearable over the years, no doubt, knowing it's not a luxury but a business necessity.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hey Scott, good luck with the LEDs. I work at a fish store and have tried a couple of high end and a couple low end aquarium LEDs with mixed/poor results. Seems the cheaper kits produce decent enough light in fish tanks as the water widens the rays and illuminates the tank fully. In a Vivarium though, I've found them to be a bit dull and they tend to have a narrow beam that illuminates the spot under the led and nowhere else. Some of the higher end kits did a good job of illumination because they had many more LEDs in the same small area. These still underperform in a Vivarium for the same tight beam problem. 

I think the key to using LEDs in vivs is going to be the advancement to using a reflector of some sort to spread the focus of the LEDs out.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

One other observation I've had with LEDs. Some of the higher end brighter systems can actually get really hot. I'm not sure what component actually gets hot, but we actually install chillers on some of our systems due to the heat from the LEDs.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Its odd that the units get hot. I can only think that they have poorly constructed heatsinks. As far as the illumination most aquarium LEDs are designed with a tighter focal point for penetration. I would think that a 60-80 degree optic would provide more even coverage....I mean hell we get by with those lame arse twisty bulbs in this hobby where a reef tanks lighting demand is a 100%-300% higher (pulled figures from me bum) I find it hard to believe that LED's especially in the 5k-10k range would not be adequate. Just my .02 though.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It might be the power source getting hot. The power source is far away from the lights on this one (each power source powers two lights). I have no issue picking up the lights after they've been on 10 hours.

I'm not absolutely positive about this. I think it's worth trying though.

s


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I have seen 6 or 7 of the top level LED fixtures and all of them you could touch the LEDs without getting burned, they were warm but not hot enough to create a issue with the reefs they were over the heat sinks would get hot but they should to diffuse the heat.

My reef Brites that I had over my tank the heat sink could be touched without an issue after 12hrs of operation and was cool to the touch. One issue with LEDs is it is a differant type of light for a lack of a better term. They do look dimmer but the par at least in a aquarium use was greater and less diffused then MH and Fluorescent......There probably needs to be some more research done on them for vivarium use though....I would try and get a par meter and do some measuring between the differant lights. You might find the LEDs do push enough light to the plants for growth even though they look dimmer.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

frog rooms rock! i'm jealous


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Awesome, can't wait to see it completed.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Can't wait to see more!


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Well I currently use the TMC Grobeam 1000nD tile for a vert tank. This light contains 10 x CREE XPE leds with 120 degree lenses and so far the plants seem to love it! Even more so then the plants in the neghbouring viv which is lit by a twin T5HO fixture.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Nice to hear about the Grobeam 1000! My girlfriend came up with an EXCELLENT idea - I was afraid the Grobeam 500 wasn't going to be enough light - so I'm using one full Grobeam 500 on each tank - diagonally - and then using one more Grobeam 500 across two tanks. So one tank is getting 7 LED lights and the other is getting 8. These are 22g tanks (18" high) so I'm now pretty confident these tanks are getting GOOD lighting. I wasn't sure if the Grobeam 500 by itself would do the trick.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

OK - slight update.

My girlfriend had a rack like this in behind the door in another room filled with sundry items. I recognized a PERFECT fruit fly rack when I saw it, so she was nice enough to buy one and we put it behind my office door! Out of sight - it's perfect.










And an updated picture - lighting is in place on the middle row. Backgrounds are most done (I do have more to do but the majority of the work is done).

Note the storage underneath. I have limited space so I cannot have stuff all over the place (like we froggers seem to do). So the space underneath (and eventually, on top) of this rack is dedicated to storage. I'm sure someone will ask so I'll answer now ... the white things in the bottom corner of each tank are drain covers. I normally do them a touch different, but I had the holes drilled a bit high so my normal method wasn't going to cut it. I use a combination of egg crate, weed block and needlepoint grid to make filters for my drain bulkheads. They'll be covered when the tanks are finished.


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Looking good! I like the slim LED's.

After seeing a lot of those cork panels I'm starting to think twice about buying all that EpiWeb!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The LED's are actually installed on the bottom of the shelf above - and the profile is *less* than the overhang of the shelf. You basically cannot see the lights unless you go looking for them. I actually left more space for the misting nozzles rather than the lights. 

I'm paying a premium for these lights (LED's that is) because I just need to avoid waste heat as much as possible out here in Tucson - but the future is LED. The cost will eventually come down and they'll be commonplace.

s


stevenhman said:


> Looking good! I like the slim LED's.
> 
> After seeing a lot of those cork panels I'm starting to think twice about buying all that EpiWeb!


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Scott said:


> OK - slight update.
> 
> My girlfriend had a rack like this in behind the door in another room filled with sundry items. I recognized a PERFECT fruit fly rack when I saw it, so I bought one and put it behind my office door! Out of sight - it's perfect.
> 
> ...


interesting drain filter set up....what keeps you from using a simple strainer like these

Bulkhead Strainers - Glass-Holes.com dope aquarium stuff

if you get a bulkhead with MPT and FPT they work great 

Bulkheads - Glass-Holes.com dope aquarium stuff


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I don't think the standard filters I've seen filter fine enough material.

The weed block that I incorporate makes sure that only water gets through - nothing else. Basically, the other two materials are there to give the weed block shape, and to protect if from ripping.

My concern with covers like you show here - is that smaller substrate materials will get through individually, and then end up combining to block the small (1/4" diameter) hole.

I'd love to find something standard to use though.

s

[edit: and it's entirely possible on full of sh!t - but I'd absolutely hate to break down a tank I love bc/ the drainage got plugged  ]


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## dartboard (Jan 30, 2011)

This looks very awesome! I am in the process of building my first rack and I can already tell there will be a day where it would benefit to "start over" after I have learned as much as possible.... getting the same size tanks, having them fit perfectly on the shelfs you want to use.... it looks superb! Cant wait to see if the LED you have will do the trick... do you already know what types of frogs you are putting in there?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Scott said:


> I don't think the standard filters I've seen filter fine enough material.
> 
> The weed block that I incorporate makes sure that only water gets through - nothing else. Basically, the other two materials are there to give the weed block shape, and to protect if from ripping.
> 
> ...


I guess I would have to see your set up closer but wouldnt you have a higher risk of the finer weed block becoming clogged keeping water from getting through? Not knocking just thinking.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That is possible as well I guess - but there is much more surface area involved with this than a smaller filter cover.

And of course, it's going to under ANOTHER layer of weed block (the substrate one). Those corners will rise a little bit (which is fine ... ).

s


D3monic said:


> I guess I would have to see your set up closer but wouldnt you have a higher risk of the finer weed block becoming clogged keeping water from getting through? Not knocking just thinking.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Scott said:


> The LED's are actually installed on the bottom of the shelf above - and the profile is *less* than the overhang of the shelf. You basically cannot see the lights unless you go looking for them. I actually left more space for the misting nozzles rather than the lights.
> 
> I'm paying a premium for these lights (LED's that is) because I just need to avoid waste heat as much as possible out here in Tucson - but the future is LED. The cost will eventually come down and they'll be commonplace.
> 
> s


Got stats on the lumens for the LEDs? I'm looking into them.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Hey Scott, Do you have any new pics? 
How are the LEDs working? I am interested because they looked great!
Todd


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Lookin good Scott. Can't wait to see the end result in person!


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

never thought of using s hooks to join units...thanks for sharing


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It really makes the whole unit that much more solid. The only downside is that you must have universal shelf spacing.

s


jpstod said:


> never thought of using s hooks to join units...thanks for sharing


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

how bout some pics of those new frogs?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I should - but I really don't like stressing out acclimating frogs.

Between that and having plants that are not (nearly) grown in yet ... 

But I'll work on it. 

s


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

What did you get?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Scott said:


> It really makes the whole unit that much more solid. The only downside is that you must have universal shelf spacing.
> 
> s


When Designing a rack is that really a problem since we tend to use same sized tanks all the Time?


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## wildman (Dec 21, 2008)

Are you sure that the middle legs and S hooks are robust enough to support the weight that will be put on them? We'd hate to see all of it as a V-shaped pile of junk on your office floor.


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## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

That FF rack is awesome... Where'd you get it?


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Trust me wait. I have been in love with his tanks seeing them. His frogs are even more stunning then his minimalist tanks =P

Once he posts them, you all will be stunned and in love. Gotta love living near my yoda. ^.^

Racks come from Lowees. I got one also =P

I'll wait until he tells you what frogs he got. That is his little secret =P


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

that ff rack is just what i need thanks for the idea


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

wildman said:


> Are you sure that the middle legs and S hooks are robust enough to support the weight that will be put on them? We'd hate to see all of it as a V-shaped pile of junk on your office floor.


This is my old frog room. All S Hooks in use here - for 10 years. No catastrophes.

The Old Frogroom ...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

While it is nice to have uniform tank size - it is not always possible (or necessary for that matter). It's just something that either will work for you (as in my situation where I have purposely bought everything to fit the size I want) or not (when you end up acquiring tanks from here, from there - from everywhere!). 

s


jpstod said:


> When Designing a rack is that really a problem since we tend to use same sized tanks all the Time?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

yea I tend to mix and Match


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## Tex22seg (Dec 3, 2010)

Are thoes tanks glass or acrylic? Wow when you said That you had previously had to break down your frog room I thought that It would be because of a spouse or girlfriend but in the end she is helping you with it. Why can't all girls be that way? Hehehe


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The old frog room had a mix of both acrylic and glass. At the time the picture was taken, it was mostly acrylic.

At the time I broke things down and sold them off, it was mostly glass.

The main reason I had to break it down was because I moved. Part of the reason I moved is because I got divorced. 

I'm in a happier place, both where I am now located and in my head. 

s


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

*toe tap ....so where's those update pics? Any progress on these or have you been busy with work? Hows Tuscon treating you?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Well ... like my friend Chris (Venom dude up a few posts ... ) said - the tanks are planted, the frogs are in - I just don't want to put up pictures of tanks with little plant growth! It really makes a difference. 

... and Tucson is great. I love it here. We'll see how I handle the intense summer temperatures, but I just installed an insulated blind on the big window here. Even when it hit 85 degrees a few weeks ago - I could feel the heat rolling in off the window. The insulated blind should help immensely in keeping the temperatures down in here. Oh, just got a new swamp cooler installed also.

s


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

What kind of blinds did you go with?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It is from Home Depot and is by "Spring Window Fashions". It's a unique size (I think it's 53.5 inches square) and I wanted insulating - so it wasn't cheap.

But they look good and they INSULATE. I had to have them down all day today (first 24 hours they're installed you're supposed to leave them down) and it was DARK in my office today ('cept for the frog lights). I'm used to looking at the bird feeders out front, not today.

s


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## iRyan (Feb 17, 2011)

Scott said:


> It is from Home Depot and is by "Spring Window Fashions". It's a unique size (I think it's 53.5 inches square) and I wanted insulating - so it wasn't cheap.
> 
> But they look good and they INSULATE. I had to have them down all day today (first 24 hours they're installed you're supposed to leave them down) and it was DARK in my office today ('cept for the frog lights). I'm used to looking at the bird feeders out front, not today.
> 
> s


Thanks for this info. Any other nifty ways to keep the temps down? Living in El Paso I have the same ridiculously hot outdoor weather to deal with. I'm currently building my first rack of tanks and I want to be sure I can keep the temps steady before I purchase any frogs.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

If you've got the money - consider LED lights. 

s


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

have you checked your output with a par meter yet? I tested my 4 bulb t8's and they where only 90 about 5 inches from the light and 30 at about 19" away from the lights....pretty weak, at least by reefing standards.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Send me the meter! I'll check the output.

Otherwise, I have no clue. The plants look happy enough though. 

s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

dmartin72 said:


> What did you get?


Some of what I got ...

Ranitomeya Imitator "Chazuta" (UE) 









Ranitomeya Imitator "Bajo Huallaga" (UE)









Ranitomeya Reticulata - striped (UE) 









Ranitomeya Fantisticus "Lowland" (UE)


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

The pattern on that Fantisticus is amazing. It's a scary fast frog, but just amazing. Love the pattern on the Chazuta and the striping on the Reticulata...nice size too. Besides locale info, how similar or different are the Chazuta from Intermedius?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Nice Scott, coming along....

Correct me if I am wrong here but 'intermedius' is actually R. imitator 'intermedius' and a misnomer anyways...old lines of animals that came from EU with that 'name'. 

R imitator 'Chazuta' are imported legally out of Peru [ and into the US] from UE only 

Shawn


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

When you use EU, do you mean European Union? If Intermedius is a misnomer, what do you call the old lines?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Well duh - I must be having a dyslexic morning. That would be UE everywhere I put EU. Sheeze. I'm going to go fix those so don't anyone go thinking that MD, er, DM is nuts. 

[edit: But I DID have UE! Understory Enterprises == UE!  ]

Intermedius is a catch all. Chazuta is localized.

I prefer localized if possible. 

s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I didn't say Intermedius anywhere - and I did use "UE" to indicate Understory Enterprises - so yes, these are Ranitomeya Imitator "Chazuta" from Understory Enterprises.

REALLY nice looking frogs also.

And thank you, it's nice to have frogs again. 

s


sports_doc said:


> ... Correct me if I am wrong here but 'intermedius' is actually R. imitator 'intermedius' and a misnomer anyways...old lines of animals that came from EU with that 'name'.
> 
> R imitator 'Chazuta' are imported legally out of Peru [ and into the US] from UE only
> 
> Shawn


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I was talking about Shawn's use here.



sports_doc said:


> ...old lines of animals that came from EU with that 'name'.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I agree. UE is a blessing. It's also nice to see Chris Miller working to keep some of the old hobby lines alive and well.



Scott said:


> I prefer localized if possible.
> 
> s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I didn't even catch your post before Shawn's - sorry about that.

The Chazuta are a bit more outgoing than Intermedius I've seen (and had).

These 4 are out all of the time. Very nice.

s


dmartin72 said:


> I was talking about Shawn's use here.


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## whatamithinking02 (Mar 14, 2011)

Love the setup


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## whatamithinking02 (Mar 14, 2011)

where did you get your old and new tanks?





Scott said:


> Steve - I'll take a picture once the lights cycle back up. The rack time is behind the racks. Short answer is - I'm using LED lights. My main reason for doing this is because I now live in Tucson, AZ and waste heat is so *not* desirable. They have a VERY low profile - actually, the room you do see there is more for the (forthcoming) misting nozzles than the LED lights.
> 
> Oh - haven't looked in to the foam yet. There are some fabric places around here so I need to look at the link Christina provided and try to find something suitable locally.
> 
> ...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The old acrylic tanks - Understory Enterprises

The new glass tanks - Protean Terrarium Design

I emailed you more information on each of these.


whatamithinking02 said:


> where did you get your old and new tanks?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Ranitomeya flavovittata (UE)


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## ctenosaur (Mar 30, 2011)

Very nice! Yet another post that sways me to order some Protean terrariums for my geckos and frogs.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Yeah! I've been watching my male Ranitomeya imitator (Bajo Huallaga (UE)) call to the females all day today. It looked to me like he was trying to draw them in to feed tadpoles.

Just spotted a tadpole in the main cup of the bromeliad in the tank!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSS!

s


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

It's ones of the coolest things to witness in the hobby! I let some CV Imitators do their thing. It's interesting that they let two tads die after transporting them and continued to care for the remaining two. Now that those two have morphed out, the breeding has started again...fun stuff!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I *might* try to raise a few tads out of the tank. Only if I see the parents ignoring them.

I'm pretty much set up here to let the parents do the job though. 

s


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Scott said:


> Ranitomeya flavovittata (UE)


Just got these frogs, pictures do them no justice......Great looking frogs.

Cool pic Scott


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