# Threat to hobby



## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Like most hobbyist, my passion for dart frogs runs deep. Many years after I meet my first Dendrobatidae, I’m still completely captivated with their highly evolved colorations, their behaviors, their calls, and the most of all the nuances between morphs and localities which includes husbandry, visual and behavioral differences. I hold dart frogs in the highest regard as prefect little gems of nature. 

You may see me as a business owner who has taking his hobby to another level, but I am not writing as Brad from Dendrobati, I’m writing as Brad the passionate hobbyist who has grave concerns about our beloved dart frogs. The same reason that I and many others obsess over our frogs is at risk for being lost. We all know the pressure put on the frogs and hobby from rural development, chytrid, smuggling, and many other factors both human and nonhuman. However, that may not be the greatest risk to the hobby. The greatest current risk to our hobby is the onset and acceptance of hybrid frogs. 

Hybrid, cross breed, out breed, mutation breed, whichever term you want to give it, it completely contradicts the reasons why I am so passionate about dart frogs. I think many of you can say the same. 

There are Dendroboard threads with strong undertones of support for hybridization, defended by just a few patrons. There is a largely controversial breeder who is likely going to start wholesaling and e-comming hybrid frogs in large numbers. There is a professional photography site selling stock images of hybrid dart frogs for marketing use. There are zoos producing hybrid frogs. Yet there is little that we are doing to combat this threat and to preserve our cherished naturally amazing frogs. 

It is time for us, as a community, to rally and act. It is time for a collective effort to promote why we feel so strongly against hybridization and why it is unnecessary. It is time for an anti-hybrid campaign. 

I would like to form a commission to start addressing this issue collectively. There are great efforts to a successful campaign, including websites, marketing, publication, forum patrol, and many other facets. For today, *I challenge each of you to list below the reasons, in bullet format with 10 words or less per item, why our dart frogs should remain pure. *

Stay tuned!
Brad


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## genem1948 (Dec 8, 2013)

Just my two cents!

I have been a member since last year and this is my first post. It seems like this this only interrupts such great positive vibes of being true to the species. It they don't mix in the wild why should we force it upon these delicate creatures. I feel this forum should take the stance that by becoming a member you have to agree not to mix! There will surely be those that disagree!


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Because Its natural.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Some morphs are rare enough already in captivity, without the help of mixing. If we start accepting mixing, we can lose a particular morph,or locale in captivity forever. I believe hobbyists overall like the idea of trying to keep their frogs as pure as possible, close to the wild population, for one reason, or another. Which in turn works for me. (That's one of the things l really love about our hobby.)
On the flip side of the coin, I do understand inbreeding is a problem in our hobby. Personality, I rather have some inbred siblings, than some unknown mix frogs, that you cannot trace back to a wild morph, or locale, in my collection, any day.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Keep in mind this is not the first rodeo for this type of group. There was the "Frog Police" and Breeders Union. 

Nothing is going to stop hybrids or out-crosses. It is already actively happening and being marketed. This board and other groups is only a fraction of those who are keeping at large. Each person chooses what they do with their specimen. Look at the certain frog seller. Those who sold frogs to them thought they were selling to a hobbyist. 

And the clumping of zoos in this really shows lack of knowledge of what is going on.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Jason, thanks for your input. I'm well aware Dendroboard is a small faction of the 'frog world'. On the dendrobati.com side, I see where our traffic and sales come from. Dendroboard is a very small percentage. Most of my customers are non-dendroboard and non-forum users. To that end, I'm not suggesting we talk about this on forums and it's a done deal. 

As well, efforts have been made before years ago. That doesn't mean we should sit back and watch things happen, does it?

Brad


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## Ian Hiler (Apr 9, 2009)

I am backing Jason on this one. I would love to see the names of zoos that are raising to adults highbred frogs!

There also seems to be a double standard in the discussion. Most people have no problem pairing azureus. but not a different import date of RFB pumilio!

Ian


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Ian Hiler said:


> I am backing Jason on this one. I would love to see the names of zoos that are raising to adults highbred frogs!
> 
> There also seems to be a double standard in the discussion. Most people have no problem pairing azureus. but not a different import date of RFB pumilio!
> 
> Ian


Huge difference between azureus and RFB...very few azureus have any info and only a handful of known true RFB in the hobby....So with RFB there isn't a large amount of imports to sort through.....There are better pumilio that would fit your analogy....


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## Ian Hiler (Apr 9, 2009)

It was just the first pumilio that pop to mind. I hope the majority of you get my point.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

When it comes down to it, it will be breeders like yourself that act as refuges for these locality animals. As more hybrids hit the market, established breeders will be the only definitive source for anyone to source these animals and be confident in their background genetics.

Hybridizing is one of those things where once you do it, it can't be undone. You can't get a locality form back once it's been bred out.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

As I stated on Facebook:


> These movements have done nothing more to the hobby except create elitist groups that disenfranchise. *The current practice of teaching and educating through forum, literature, and meetings maintains the practice of responsible keeping.*





Dendrobati said:


> It is time for us, as a community, to rally and act. It is time for a collective effort to promote why we feel so strongly against hybridization and why it is unnecessary. It is time for an anti-hybrid campaign.


We (the hobby) have no control what an individual chooses to do with their collection. Hybridizing and Out-Crossing is happening, not new news. A group does change anything, and many times puts the hobby in bad light with the pitch fork style attitude that has been seen here in the past and continue to push those want to purposely defy the norms that are currently in the hobby. 


* It does not mean that or sect of the hobby has to accept them*, but we will have to deal with them and manage them. This is nothing new to herpetculture, look to the Gekkonidae and Colubridae hobbyist. They have managed to have purest (locale and species specific) and hybridizers and morphs.



Dendrobati said:


> …There are zoos producing hybrid frogs…


So let’s set the facts straight on Zoos and Aquaria as I feel your statement is misleading. Accredited institutions do not release their offspring to the general public. Nor are they going around purposely producing out-crosses and hybrids. This is often the result of mixed species/morph exhibits. Institutional goal is to display specimens for the general public to enjoy in a limited amount of space/time/cost. Most are culled at the egg stage, they do not want to constantly producing frogs. They have no place to keep/send them. In the day of ISIS (International Species Information System) an accredited zoo/aquaria could look up who had what and request specimens, bloodline, and care information. Hybrids/out-crossed were noted. 

Some zoo/aquaria are keeping single species/morph exhibits, and even mixing them with serpents. I know of institution working with WIKIRI frogs and managing them so they are the bloodlines for zoos/aquaria. Not every institution is keep "founders" or bloodlines of value. 



Dendrobati said:


> The greatest current risk to our hobby is the onset and acceptance of hybrid frogs.


I do not see this as the greatest threat to the hobby. We have plenty of hobbyists with zero interest in out-crossing and hybridizing thus maintaining a population. I would be more worried about an Injurious Wildlife Listing of Amphiba to prevent the spread of Batrachochytrium salamandrivorans and Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis. I do not see that battle being over and unless you know someone in your state with the morph or species you are out of luck.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Jason makes good points, and there are real practical difficulties and dangers in implementing a plan or in taking it to far...but overall I support Dendrobati's sentiments too. I don't know exactly what should be done or how it should be done, except perhaps each one of us needs to educate themselves, and then others. Take some initiative and start a conversation about it with friends or people you meet and/or sell to.

I think whatever we do we have to be extremely patient with newer people who come around asking about this, and maybe don't immediately jump on board. Save the torches and pitchforks as a last resort. Taking the time to politely address this issue over and over and over ad nauseum is how we win hearts and minds... Not attacking someone new who asks about it or is mixing out of ignorance at the drop of a hat. Approaching vendors about our conserns as tactfully as possible. If they continue to do it after being educated then maybe the claws come out.

* Your desire for a designer frog puts all our pure blood stock at risk.

* I find the ethics of someone new comming into a community and forcing their philosophy and the consequences of their actions on us.... questionable at best.

* Descisions on what is or isn't appropriate to mix should be based on what is best for that captive population and community consensus... Not on personal desire or profit based motivations.

* What you do effects us all... Have respect for the people and the frogs: both those that came before you, and those that will come after you.

* Dart frogs come in so many pattern and color combinations there is already a frog to suit most tastes without having to endanger an entire captive population just to customize a frog to your exact specs. Appreciate them as they are, or find another hobby that cares less about the genetic integrity of their animals.

* There may come a time when you need us or our frogs... Don't burn bridges and alienate some of the best people you may ever meet by mixing and disrespecting your fellow froggers.

** And... All hail Zardoz!*


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

One of the first things I learned when I approached this hobby it was that hybridization is to be avoided! It remained in me as a commandment... Therefore I say that if the hybridization is allowed and practiced in other hobbies (I think for example to ball pythons), in our hobby is to be avoided in any way. It is a reason of Ethics, the ethics of our hobby.
If someone hybrid frogs (by mistake or by choice), he must not sell hybrids.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Jason, while I get where you are coming from with the gecko/colubrid hobbies, there's a couple issues I have with that. First, and a bit more specific, is that when it comes to finding something like a wild type E. macularius macularius, het for nothing, it's essentially next to impossible now. They have all been bred into the morph market, or are held by breeders with the purpose for test breeding morphs. I don't think this is a desirable fate for what is such a naturally beautiful animal.

The second is a bit more wide-ranging, and is commonly seen in segments such as the leopard gecko hobby. There, genetics are just as coveted as they are in the dendrobatid hobby, though the focus there is on morphs. People looking to breed are encouraged to purchase only animals with known genetic backgrounds, and breeding unknown animals is generally frowned upon. However, they're not as adamant about it as we are...why? Why is this an option for morph markets, but not for the dart frog hobby? Simply, these mixed animals are termed 'pet quality', suitable for beginners wanting a pet gecko. However, the dart frog hobby hasn't reached that level, and will probably not reach that level. The numbers simply aren't there, and there is a (in my opinion) much larger percentage of dart frog keepers who want locality animals. This puts pressure on breeders who ARE producing mixed animals to try to sell them unethically.

Morphs also have the potential to be purified by breeding against het-nothing animals to prove out genetics. This is not an option with localities. While it may take some time, if you want to take some mixed genetic animal, and breed down to just the amelanism or whatever you're targeting, you can.


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## Barry Thomas (Oct 9, 2014)

This hobby means different things to each of us. We cannot regulate what others do with their frogs. Those of us who consider it important to have locality-type frogs available, must remember it is our responsibility to continue these localities, within our collections. We can complain and gripe all we want but we cannot force others to comply with our wishes. All the moaning and "the sky is falling" threads are pointless. 

If you are against hybrid frogs, don't buy them or from people who produce them. There are plenty of breeders and hobbyist who maintain quality locality-specific lines. It is as simple as that.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

We all have a limited amount of time, and space. l chose to dedicated my space, not only to pure bloodline frogs, but also to pure plants that be found naturally with the frogs sp., in the wild. No hybrids in my collection. Okay,... Maybe one, if you count the car. I don't know why some want/choose to go dedicate that to the breeding/propagation of hybrids, or/and outcrossing. It's beyond me. I look at like this. We can make hybrids anytime after darts become more common.
If Darts were more common in captivity, like maybe the common goldfish, I believe, the hobby overall wouldn't have a problem with it. They're not, and where the problem arise.

The solution, I believe to this problem is what both Jason, and Dave said in this thread.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> Jason, while I get where you are coming from with the gecko/colubrid hobbies, there's a couple issues I have with that. First, and a bit more specific, is that when it comes to finding something like a wild type E. macularius macularius, het for nothing, it's essentially next to impossible now. They have all been bred into the morph market, or are held by breeders with the purpose for test breeding morphs. I don't think this is a desirable fate for what is such a naturally beautiful animal.
> 
> The second is a bit more wide-ranging, and is commonly seen in segments such as the leopard gecko hobby. There, genetics are just as coveted as they are in the dendrobatid hobby, though the focus there is on morphs. People looking to breed are encouraged to purchase only animals with known genetic backgrounds, and breeding unknown animals is generally frowned upon. However, they're not as adamant about it as we are...why? Why is this an option for morph markets, but not for the dart frog hobby? Simply, these mixed animals are termed 'pet quality', suitable for beginners wanting a pet gecko. However, the dart frog hobby hasn't reached that level, and will probably not reach that level. The numbers simply aren't there, and there is a (in my opinion) much larger percentage of dart frog keepers who want locality animals. This puts pressure on breeders who ARE producing mixed animals to try to sell them unethically.
> 
> Morphs also have the potential to be purified by breeding against het-nothing animals to prove out genetics. This is not an option with localities. While it may take some time, if you want to take some mixed genetic animal, and breed down to just the amelanism or whatever you're targeting, you can.


Leopard geckos were not my first thought on the hybrids for various reasons. One being is that Leopard Geckos have been bred for well over 30 years now in captivity. The root Genus and species is Eublepharis macularius and imports did not look all that different from one another. Take a look at the literature from the 80's and they will state there are 4 species, now 5 with one species identified early in the 80's and now we have multiple subspecies of Eublepharis macularius. So the hybrids I would not put that as much in the willful/knowingly creating hybrids. 

Pure lines can be found, Steve Sykes a larger breeder has pure lines of four species and four subspecies of leopard geckos (Geckos Ect.Wild Caught Bloodlines).

If you want to look at a relationship in geckos similar to Dart Frogs in the gecko look at former genus of Rhacodactylus or you can look at the genus of Phelsuma. 

You do not commonly see crosses of Phelsuma laticauda x Phelsuma dubia x Phelsuma lineata. They exist along with other hybrids but are not accepted by the hobby. 

Spend some time in New Caledonian geckos and you will see Correlophus ciliatus x Rhacodactylus auriculatus or Correlophus ciliatus x Mniarogekko chahoua. Not widely accepted in the hobby and you do not see a large craze in these crosses. 

Outcross of M. chahouas "Mainlands" and "Pine Islands" and the same can be seen in the various Rhacodactylus leachianus. An interesting part is some big breeders are out-crossing leachies, however the hobby still maintains pure lines and is diligent in record keeping to maintain lines. These 10 or so locales do express some phonotypical differences i with the isle morphs being smaller than mainland and Moro and Nu Ana showing some pink highlights in color and other traits.

Again, I am not say we must accept out-crosses and hybrids and our hobby has established norms.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Barry Thomas said:


> This hobby means different things to each of us. We cannot regulate what others do with their frogs. Those of us who consider it important to have locality-type frogs available, must remember it is our responsibility to continue these localities, within our collections. We can complain and gripe all we want but we cannot force others to comply with our wishes. All the moaning and "the sky is falling" threads are pointless.
> 
> If you are against hybrid frogs, don't buy them or from people who produce them. There are plenty of breeders and hobbyist who maintain quality locality-specific lines. It is as simple as that.


Actually we can regulate it to a degree. It's been happening since before I showed up 10 years ago. We've created a culture within the hobby that has rewards for respecting it and punishments for not.

Education and peer pressure (and sometimes negative consequences or sanctions for violators) are the main means by which we police the hobby. We can make it difficult for people if they don't respect the community. We've seen this when people have had bad business practices, stole frogs from a host's house at a frog meet, when a company partnered with someone "infamous" in the hobby, and now we are basically boycotting and trying to get the word out about another company, that at least as far as one person or entity probably represents the greatest threat ever to our culture and our frogs.

Can the "frog police" actually arrest someone? ...No, and probably that is for the best. I wouldn't trust myself with that power, let alone some of you wackos 

We don't have absolute power to stop someone in most cases, but we as individuals and as a community can exert a fair amount of influence. I've seen people pretty much drummed off the forums and maybe out of the hobby entirely. I've withheld my money from some vendors or individuals I might have bought from had they done things differently, and in a few cases I've just skipped contributing or helping out someone in threads or posts due to that person's prior actions or words.

Just off hand I can think of several other instances where others have done the same or more, and am reasonably sure stuff like that is fairly common. We may not have shutdown a business yet, but we have hurt a few's bottom line and thus limited their influence and the damage they could do to a degree... I'd call that a win, even if not absolute victory.

The smarter we are about how we apply the power we have as individuals and a community, the more power we end up having to effect change or maintain the status quo. Also many people don't seem to realize that the fight or the argument is in fact the best solution. Often neither side will be completely happy, but nor will either side be completely screwed.

I also feel we are to quick to smack the noobs and to impatient with repeated questions. Occasionally berating someone works, but in my experience it is best saved as a last resort. We need to each police ourselves to a degree to make sure our words and action have the most positive impact rather then just making us feel better because we vented... if we really care about the hobby more then just venting, even if it is deserved. 

I know a few people think I'm to soft, but I'm a pragmatist... If I think mean will work, then mean is what I do... But there is a a time and place to get mean, and I think all to often we go to that place at the wrong time... and that costs everyone in the long term.

Occasionally we may drive or scare someone completely out of the hobby, and that may even be a good thing... but it is more likely we drive most into the shadows where we have less influence but they can still do considerable damage, and we loose some good people who probably could have been salvaged and ended up on our side. Some times we also alienate our friends when we take it to far.

...More flies with honey, and all that. Then beat the $#!+ out of them once they are stuck in honey, and splash vinegar in their eyes!!! ...Rawr!!!


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

rigel10 said:


> One of the first things I learned when I approached this hobby it was that hybridization is to be avoided! It remained in me as a commandment... Therefore I say that if the hybridization is allowed and practiced in other hobbies (I think for example to ball pythons), in our hobby is to be avoided in any way. It is a reason of Ethics, the ethics of our hobby.
> If someone hybrid frogs (by mistake or by choice), he must not sell hybrids.


Hybridization doesn't occur in the ball python hobby. Nor does outcrossing. Only selective breeding since all the morphs are genetics traits like dominant or recessive and you can find a natural occurring morph possibly at any location within their natural range.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Barry Thomas said:


> This hobby means different things to each of us. We cannot regulate what others do with their frogs. Those of us who consider it important to have locality-type frogs available, must remember it is our responsibility to continue these localities, within our collections. We can complain and gripe all we want but we cannot force others to comply with our wishes. All the moaning and "the sky is falling" threads are pointless.
> 
> If you are against hybrid frogs, don't buy them or from people who produce them. There are plenty of breeders and hobbyist who maintain quality locality-specific lines. It is as simple as that.


Barry,

With all do respect, I believe that the reason this is such a contested subject is because is is not "as simple as that." 

I do not argue that people's frogs are theirs to breed how they want and that we cannot stop them if they choose to hybridize. Even many of the people who believe in keeping lines pure agree that that individual collections are up to the caretaker. However, as many have stated before, the way others breed becomes an issue when they decide to release their hybridized frogs to the hobby and when we no longer know the genetics of a frog. We work on the honor system in this hobby, which would be great if everyone was trustworthy. Even trustworthy people could sell a frog that they believed to be pure but isn't. That seems to be the very basis of this issue for many and is why it is not "as simple as that." 

With that said, you make a good point about this hobby meaning different things to different people. There are many things that draw me to this hobby and one of them is the awesomeness that nature has perfected and the passion for maintaining that. We all know that frogs hybridize in the wild, but their success or failure depends on their environment and how their changes affect their ability to survive and reproduce in that environment. There is little measure of natural balance to our hybrid frogs. Regardless of how impractical the changes in nature, they will likely survive and reproduce if we provide the right conditions. 

This is my personal opinion, but it feels a little like cheating. In my opinion, there is no improvement to be made. Man-made hybridization only takes away from the awe that these frogs have such awesome color and diversity without human intervention. 

As far as people speaking out...we should be kind to each other; however, that does not mean that people should not be passionate and speak out for what is important to them. There are arguments to be had on both sides; however, if one side is squelched, people who are unaware never get to hear the other side. Let people decide given all the facts and beliefs. Thoughts?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Celtic Aaron said:


> ...With that said, you make a good point about this hobby meaning different things to different people...


I think we are on the same page, but for people who would ask what right we have to peer pressure people into following our SOP, I reinterate these points...

* Your desire for a designer frog puts all our pure blood stock at risk.

* I find the ethics of someone new comming into a community and forcing their philosophy and the consequences of their actions on us.... questionable at best.

* Descisions on what is or isn't appropriate to mix should be based on what is best for that captive population and community consensus... Not on personal desire or profit based motivations.

* What you do effects us all... Have respect for the people and the frogs: both those that came before you, and those that will come after you.

As far as I know none of us here now started the dart frog hobby... We inherited it from others. If someone feels comfortable starting a new hobby, but telling the community that was there before them, and will be there after them to piss off... they are going to do what they want: I think that person needs to take a hard look at themselves and how selfish they are. Ya we are all here in part to have fun, but that doesn't mean this is meaningless to us. No one exists in a vacuum.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> The second is a bit more wide-ranging, and is commonly seen in segments such as the leopard gecko hobby. There, genetics are just as coveted as they are in the dendrobatid hobby, though the focus there is on morphs. People looking to breed are encouraged to purchase only animals with known genetic backgrounds, and breeding unknown animals is generally frowned upon. However, they're not as adamant about it as we are...why? Why is this an option for morph markets, but not for the dart frog hobby? Simply, these mixed animals are termed 'pet quality', suitable for beginners wanting a pet gecko. However, the dart frog hobby hasn't reached that level, and will probably not reach that level.


I forgot to address this as I typically type in word and post. 

"Pet" level has already started. I was on the same lines a few years ago, however the accessibility of dart frogs has grown so much and price has decreased that I can walk into PetCo and get an auratus like getting a leopard gecko. Dart frogs are auction on Facebook and sold regularly at reptile sales. I have attend every NARBC Tinley Park except 2001. Their growth in availability and sales and decrease in price has casual, pet keepers. Way more than when I first started and has certainly grown the last few years. I know people who don't even make cultures, just buy them every other week at PetCo because they only have a few frogs. We are hitting that level.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> I forgot to address this as I typically type in word and post.
> 
> "Pet" level has already started. I was on the same lines a few years ago, however the accessibility of dart frogs has grown so much and price has decreased that I can walk into PetCo and get an auratus like getting a leopard gecko. Dart frogs are auction on Facebook and sold regularly at reptile sales. I have attend every NARBC Tinley Park except 2001. Their growth in availability and sales and decrease in price has casual, pet keepers. Way more than when I first started and has certainly grown the last few years. I know people who don't even make cultures, just buy them every other week at PetCo because they only have a few frogs. We are hitting that level.


Agreed, and I think we are at a critical moment where what we do and say now and in the near future is going to shape what's to come more then ever.

Our issues with a certain company probably aren't a coincidence, but rather a result of us starting to reach a critical mass. Also it just isn't their number of frogs and willingness to go rogue, they are also actively pushing their philosophy, BS pseudoscience, and introducing sleazy sales tactics, so basically a quadruple threat if you add in the actual mixed morph frogs.

They are selling that philosophy and other crap as much as they are the frogs, and given their means and intentions that makes them a huge threat to the status quo or positive change... but maybe they were just the fire we needed lit under our ass to come together?


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## Mantella71 (Oct 7, 2013)

posted by Eric walker

"Hybridization doesn't occur in the ball python hobby"

Ball pythons have been hybridized with blood, angolan, carpet, Burmese, and woma pythons. 

Just because a cross can be done doesn't mean it's good or ethical. The reptile/herp hobby unfortunately goes in cycles of the latest morphs/color phases and crosses. I believe there will always be unscrupulous people in the reptile world but have hope that most dart frog keepers have a higher standard than money or chasing the latest fad. All I can do is keep proper records and only sell/trade to others with the same belief that mixing species/locales are a definite no no. I would hate to see the dart frog sector turn into a race to make a super bumble bee piebald leuc. That would be a damn shame and insult to our naturally beautiful frogs.


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## edaxflamma (Jan 18, 2014)

As someone who has yet to purchase a frog and who is still very much a beginner, I definitely feel as though there is pressure to avoid hybrids etc. That having been said, I wholeheartedly understand _why_ the hobby should preserve individual species as best they can. I watched Nepenthes (diecious plant) shift over almost entirely to hybrids. All it took was the few species growers greenhouses getting robbed or destroyed in last year's snow storm to make certain species impossible to find... Now not only are the individual species in jeopardy but so are the hybrids.

But here on Dendroboard, I dont really see any discussions or plans as to how to proceed with or develop a breeding program that doesn't involve inbreeding or hybridization / out crossing.

As a freshwater shrimp keeper / breeder, I only kept my little bowl of hicks breeding for about a year before I siphoned a portion of them out, and replaced / traded them for new genetic stock. Looking back on it, these shrimp were probably still being inbred within the hobby even with the imports coming in from over seas. No one really talked about it on those forums either but it was discussed enough to know that doing those culls and additions would in theory improve the resilience of your stock.

Unfortunately I don't always see a whole lot of that kind of discussion in the dart world. Additionally it doesn't seem as easy to do in practice given the limited stock. As a newcomer, if I wanted a breeding pair I personally would have no idea where to begin when it came to selecting parents that were related enough to be of the same "morph" "location" what have you, but also not be considered hybridizing or cross breeding. It's one reason why I haven't made the leap to actually purchasing frogs... that and culturing fruit flies (bleck!).

But I feel like that area is grey enough to elicit any number of different suggestions and theories. Unfortunately when you combine that with an environment that very clearly has a strong preference it can make that discussion difficult to bring up for us newbies for fear of being blacklisted. I think this kind of info and / or even better (public) line / species / morph tracking would help shed some light on things.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Mantella71 said:


> posted by Eric walker
> 
> "Hybridization doesn't occur in the ball python hobby"
> 
> ...


I would note Eric is refering more to the leopard gecko example of multiple species and subspecies under the same genus. Ball pythons have been hybridized
Bloods and several other species but again not widely accepted.

And this hobby doesn't go in cycles of morphs and species?


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## Mantella71 (Oct 7, 2013)

I agree the dart frog hobby goes in cycles as well. I've seen the popularity of several species go from super rare to oversaturated in a manner of years only to practically disappear a few years later. My main concern is keeping the dart frog community from turning into a designer morph/color phase fad/frenzy which is not good in the long run. Just my 2 cents and experience in the herp world for the past 25 years or so. It's just sad to see naturally occurring species be turned into a mad scientist mentality.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

My reference to the leopard geckos was not particularly for the hybrids, but rather the morphs. This is more analogous (IMO) to the dart frog hobby, as the concerns seem to stem from species like tincs that present many forms of one species. Bred together may not present itself with outwardly obvious differences to some locale-specific animals. Similarly, leopard gecko morphs with mixed genetics are considered questionable for the same reason.

The petco stores that offer dart frogs are very limited, so I wouldn't necessarily use that as a guideline. Various leaftail geckos, helmeted geckos, chondros, etc. are also available through petco, and I would not consider any of those to be 'pet' status animals either.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> I think we are on the same page, but for people who would ask what right we have to peer pressure people into following our SOP, I reinterate these points...
> 
> * Your desire for a designer frog puts all our pure blood stock at risk.
> 
> ...


Dave,

We are on the same page, and that is why it is important for me to speak for what I believe in. My only hesitation is speaking for an entire hobby of which I have only been in for about 2 years. I do realize that there are many people in this hobby that may not feel the way I do; however, I know that I have found like-minded people here on DB. Being that froggers on DB represent a small population of this hobby makes me question whether or not these ethics exist throughout the greater hobby.

Regardless of that, I have yet to hear an argument that changes my mind. However, I still want to hear the other side. This makes me greater informed and if nothing else, solidifies my belief that we are doing the right thing. Either way, unless someone can give me some earth shattering reason why hybridized frogs are good, I remain resolute in my stance that maintaining the ethics set forth on DB are a positive move towards maintaining a hobby that is sustainable and representative of the gifts that we have been given. Thoughts?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Celtic Aaron said:


> Dave,
> 
> We are on the same page, and that is why it is important for me to speak for what I believe in. My only hesitation is speaking for an entire hobby of which I have only been in for about 2 years. I do realize that there are many people in this hobby that may not feel the way I do; however, I know that I have found like-minded people here on DB. Being that froggers on DB represent a small population of this hobby makes me question whether or not these ethics exist throughout the greater hobby.
> 
> Regardless of that, I have yet to hear an argument that changes my mind. However, I still want to hear the other side. This makes me greater informed and if nothing else, solidifies my belief that we are doing the right thing. Either way, unless someone can give me some earth shattering reason why hybridized frogs are good, I remain resolute in my stance that maintaining the ethics set forth on DB are a positive move towards maintaining a hobby that is sustainable and representative of the gifts that we have been given. Thoughts?


 I know it irks some when people post opposing views but like you I'm all for it. I see the case for our side as incredibly strong so I'm more then willing to engage in debate. 

It is wise to get your bearings and excerise some caution or even restraint at times, but you should feel free to speak up. I fear shutting people down the moment they question or disagree is a major obstacle to our long term goals. The company at the center of the current drama got it pretty easy at first really, but once they found out we weren't on board they got defensive and bailed sonthwts on them, but in other cases I think we have shot ourselves in the foot and made an enemy we could have made a friend.

Anyways, it is your hobby too so you and everyone should get a say. If the consensus becomes "lets go designer", I won't be happy but I'll live, but when one entity comes in to ournworld and tries to change it against the will of the people at the core of the culture... they cross the line IMO.

I'm really kinda impressed how much we've held to and got others to at least respect our ways over my time here. I think that is evidence that our core group is more influential then some believe.


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## amgini (Jun 10, 2011)

I am all for more choices, not less. I actually think having hybrids is a good thing. It allows the hobby to evolve and progress. It also takes the pressure off of the wild population. I don't see why hybrids and pure lines can't coexist. It's safe to assume that people have been creating hybrids for years. How have that effect your collection? If you want to keep pure lines then it is your responsibility to get them from a trusted source. I don't think it's fair to assume that just because someone is interested in hybrids that they will be dishonest and introduce hybrids as pure lines into the hobby. I can understand that some of you might be against having hybrids as they might devalue your collection. We should let the market dictate what frogs should be around. If you don't want hybrids then that's fine but there's no need to be hostile toward someone else who wants something different.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

amgini said:


> I am all for more choices, not less. I actually think having hybrids is a good thing. It allows the hobby to evolve and progress. It also takes the pressure off of the wild population. I don't see why hybrids and pure lines can't coexist. It's safe to assume that people have been creating hybrids for years. How have that effect your collection? If you want to keep pure lines then it is your responsibility to get them from a trusted source. I don't think it's fair to assume that just because someone is interested in hybrids that they will be dishonest and introduce hybrids as pure lines into the hobby. I can understand that some of you might be against having hybrids as they might devalue your collection. We should let the market dictate what frogs should be around. If you don't want hybrids then that's fine but there's no need to be hostile toward someone else who wants something different.


Well I disagree with a lot of that of course but I'm all for the debate like I said, and you don't sound like you intend to do harm or just don't care so kudos there.

Here are my issues...

Those more choices in the short term can in the long term destroy some of the choices we had. OK maybe we have more color and pattern combos of frogs, but if none of them can actually be considered a real blue azureus, I lost my option to own a real blue azureus because the designer craze got out of hand and they all got mixed with other crap. 

Can you guarantee me that won't happen? ...If you can't (and you can't), why should we risk it? Blue azureus are a real frog that actually exists in nature, maybe someday they won't and all we will have left are memories, pics, vids and cheap knock offs. I consider no more true blue azureus to be a huge loss. And one of those worth 10 mutts. Why am I wrong?

In other hobbies where designer animals have gained a foot hold a fair amount of confusion has occurred and genetic integrity lost, damage done (meaning little reasonable certainty what you want is actually what you get and will breed true). We've seen captive plant and animal populations ruined, even destroyed possibly and some hobbies have arguably degenerated into a cluster fudge.

I'm not sure one example exist where people have pulled it off without causing considerable damage to the pure population, or at least not put the people and captive populations at substantial risk. 

It isn't the guy who makes one hybrid and keeps it the whole life of the animal. It isn't the well informed and responsible people that keep track of their frogs origins that are the major threat... Its the ones that don't know to, know how, don't care, or will straight up lie. Every hybrid/designer frog out there is like a land mine waiting to be triggered by one of those people... or some poor unsuspecting victim that just wanted a REAL blue azureus and went with the wrong vendor. 

And even if it starts all innocent, it can get out of hand fast and then there is the question of is it really worth the risk to our captive stock just to satisfy the desire of some for a designer animal? Why should we have to bear the burden of that risk or be put in a position to be effected by their desires that lead to negative consequences for us and others? Most often it is people coming in that do this, and many leave... Where is the respect for the people and animals that came before, and will be there long after?

I've said it before and I'll say it again and again: None of us exist in a vacuum, what they do or say can put us all at risk. So for the most part hybrids are rarely sold openly and you have to be real careful who you tell and since they aren't accepted once found they are usually stopped from doing to much more harm. Can we be 100% sure and 100% hybrid free, no but our fight is what has limited the damage done, and even allows for some repair. 

If it becomes the norm and people like a certain company who have already lied and slung sleaze and BS get a free pass to design the future... the future is a mutt that is at best an echo or lame approximation of something once beautiful from nature. It just won't mean as much to many people, and then it is just a commodity. Why should we let people risk what we love?

So to those who believe it can be done with little risk, and feel right to do it I ask you to address these points and explain how they are wrong, can be avoided or just shouldn't matter.....
* The desire for a designer frog puts all our pure blood stock at risk. The proof is we've already seen damage occur.

* I find the ethics of someone new comming into a community and forcing their philosophy and the consequences of their actions on us.... questionable at best. What gives them the right to out what we have at more risk?

* Shouldn't decisions on what is or isn't appropriate to mix be based on what is best for that captive population and community consensus?... Not on personal desire or profit based motivations.

* What you do effects us all... Have respect for the people and the frogs: both those that came before you, and those that will come after you.

* Dart frogs come in so many pattern and color combinations there is already a frog to suit most tastes without having to endanger an entire captive population just to customize a frog to your exact specs. Appreciate them as they are, or find another hobby that cares less about the genetic integrity of their animals.

* There may come a time when you need us or our frogs... Don't burn bridges and alienate some of the best people you may ever meet by mixing and disrespecting your fellow froggers.

* And... All hail Zardoz!

So far very few of the pro hybrid/designer people have taken the time and made the effort to address these specific points and ethical questions of mine and many others. We care enough to dissect the issue and address the disagreement point by point... why don't the people on the other side? ...Could that lack of concern, be evidence that the people who want this often might not be the best to trust with the hobby's future? 


I'm especially disappointed that few if any are willing to address the ethical issues presented by an outsider forcing change onto an existing community. Why is it OK for them to undo what was and forever alter what will be?... and we are the bad guys for complaining?

Might even be a valid argument in insisting that if people want a designer hobby then they should be the first ones off the bench making sure we have large stable reservoirs of pure stock, so what they are doing doesn't totally screw us. When they've got a good start on setting up a management program that preserves what we have, then maybe they earn a chance at a designer hobby. 

Sure it would be helpful to have one period, but we don't and we aren't likely to have a good one adopted by a large % of people anytime soon, and I see that as the only possible way to MAYBE have a shot at a relatively risk free responsible/ethical designer hobby within our hobby. So please help us fix our problem before adding another one or making one so much worse then it currently is.


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## Calivet (Aug 12, 2013)

amgini said:


> I am all for more choices, not less. I actually think having hybrids is a good thing. It allows the hobby to evolve and progress. It also takes the pressure off of the wild population. I don't see why hybrids and pure lines can't coexist. It's safe to assume that people have been creating hybrids for years. How have that effect your collection? If you want to keep pure lines then it is your responsibility to get them from a trusted source. I don't think it's fair to assume that just because someone is interested in hybrids that they will be dishonest and introduce hybrids as pure lines into the hobby. I can understand that some of you might be against having hybrids as they might devalue your collection. We should let the market dictate what frogs should be around. If you don't want hybrids then that's fine but there's no need to be hostile toward someone else who wants something different.


If a market exists for pure strain frogs, hybridization will actually increase pressure on wild populations of frogs, as that will be the only guaranteed source. If that results in said wild caught frogs commanding a higher price, it is entirely reasonable to believe that individuals will misrepresent their hybrids as wild caught so as to increase profits. Maybe not all, but certainly enough - your comment that a "trusted source" would be required says you agree. 

The genie can't be put back into the bottle. Why shouldn't there be hostility towards a practice that actually endangers wild populations and has essentially zero justification outside of "I wanna"?


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

amgini said:


> I am all for more choices, not less. I actually think having hybrids is a good thing. It allows the hobby to evolve and progress.


I don't see this as a positive evolution of the hobby. Just because we can do something doesn't make it good. Even in nature, there are things that have remained unchanged for millions of years...if it works, why change it?



amgini said:


> It also takes the pressure off of the wild population.


I know that this issue has been addressed many times, but I have yet to hear an argument that makes me believe this will actually happen. As stated previously, the desire for people to keep pure lines will only increase pressure on the wild population if the hobby does not sustain these pure lines through captive breeding.



amgini said:


> I don't see why hybrids and pure lines can't coexist. It's safe to assume that people have been creating hybrids for years. How have that effect your collection?


There is no tracking mechanism currently in place and used widespread in the hobby (that I am aware of) that can ensure a frog's genetics. This is why they cannot coexist. The only way I know the lineage of my frogs is from the person that I purchased them from, which is why I will not buy frogs from someone I cannot trust. To further complicate this issue, widespread hybridization of frogs will only make it hard for even trustworthy people to know exactly what they have over time. Also just because people may have been doing it for years, doesn't mean it should continue or become more prevalent. I believe that one reason it is not more widespread is because of the pressure of the hobby to maintain an ethical standard, which is a good thing.



amgini said:


> If you want to keep pure lines then it is your responsibility to get them from a trusted source. I don't think it's fair to assume that just because someone is interested in hybrids that they will be dishonest and introduce hybrids as pure lines into the hobby.


I agree that people who want hybrids may not be dishonest; however, it is the slippery slope of what is to come when hybridization becomes widespread and even honest people don't really know what they have anymore. With that said, why go against a set ethical standard within the hobby? If someone does not like the standards, maybe a different hobby is in order. As Dave puts it so well, "we do not exist in a vacuum." We all have to be accountable to each other, the community as a whole, and to this world.



amgini said:


> I can understand that some of you might be against having hybrids as they might devalue your collection.


In my opinion this is not really the issue. I know that people want to make it about money, but the passion that I see goes deeper than the pocket. While there are a few that may make a living on this hobby, the vast majority of people spend much more than they ever get back. The real value is in the ability to have a little slice of the rainforest in our homes with awesome little frogs that have been perfected by nature for millions of years without our intervention.



amgini said:


> We should let the market dictate what frogs should be around.


Since when is the market always right? Sure, in business we see corrections when the market is not right; however, once we go down the path of hybrids, and we find it is not right, there is no correction in the market...at least not without putting pressure on the wild population of frogs that already have enough pressure on them.



amgini said:


> If you don't want hybrids then that's fine but there's no need to be hostile toward someone else who wants something different.


Hostility, no...expecting an adherence to ethical standards, yes. May I be so humble as to say that when you enter the hobby, there are ethical guidelines that you should follow. This is no different than any other animal. Just because you buy a dog, for example, does not mean that it is your property to do whatever you want with. You take on a responsibility for a life and you have to treat that animal within certain ethical guidelines. If you do not, you may even be charged with animal cruelty. I am not suggesting that hybridizing frogs is considered animal cruelty, just pointing out that there are ethics that are greater than each of us individually, regardless of what we want to do.

Thoughts?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You are changing it by bringing it into captivity. For thousands of years they did fine and adapted to the wild.

You want a "pure" blue frog so much that you'll take them from the wild and that's someone else's fault because YOU don't want something that may be mixed, even though you can't outwardly tell?

The only thing that keeps animals coming from the wild is the thought that our genetics are subpar, even though no one can see any outward problems. Hybrids would suffice just as fine as pets it's the ego that makes them "not good enough" for you. 

All I hear is that we want them pure because we want them pure and we'll accept nothing else. If you don't track lineage it's not someone else's fault because they crossed some morphs.

If you want something work towards achieving it. Wanting everyone else to conform to "the way you do it" is entitlement at it's worse.

I'm against hybrids but I'm against bullying more.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Roadrunner said:


> You are changing it by bringing it into captivity. For thousands of years they did fine and adapted to the wild.
> 
> You want a "pure" blue frog so much that you'll take them from the wild and that's someone else's fault because YOU don't want something that may be mixed, even though you can't outwardly tell?
> 
> ...


My first question is about bullying...where does that come from and who is it aimed at? I am interested in a meaningful conversation (argument if you will) about the ethics of this hobby (or at least this portion of the hobby), absolutely not bullying. 

There is no doubt that there is a bit of a dilemma when it comes to the conservationists side of the hobby and removing frogs from the wild for our own personal pleasure. That is a philosophical argument all in its own. At some point we are all guilty of using nature and animals for our own personal pleasure. However, I fail to see how that takes us down the path to hybridizing. Are you saying that we change them already when we take them out of the wild; therefore we may as well keep changing them?

I have already stated why I am against hybrids. I enjoy the awe that nature has provided without my intervention. That does not mean that hybridization will drive me to personally seek out only wild-caught frogs in order to keep my lines pure. Unless we are getting frogs in a sustainable way for the species, I am against that also. Can we live with hybridization, sure. Do we want to, no.

Because this is a discussion about hybrids and how they affect the hobby, my next question to you is why are you against hybrids? I would like to hear the opinions from people who have been around this hobby much longer than I have and have a perspective that I do not.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Aimed at the way people are driven off the board and underground because of the "no hybrid" stance.

Yes, all this I love nature and then putting frogs in an unnatural box. It seems pretty high horse to me to say that no one in the hobby should accept hybrids yet they are the one animal that you'd never have to go back to nature for because they aren't there.

I'm "against" hybrids because people want pure frogs and hybrids will drive these people to rape nature more, possibly, out of paranoia that there frogs will produce still borns, or frogs with 5 eyes, or the wrong color, etc. The air of "I want what I want and that's pure bred frogs" is pretty idealistic and radical, for pets in glass boxes. I'm not against anyone doing what they want as long as they are telling the truth.

Part of the reason they are not as popular is because of the anti hybrid, knowing every morph and area they come from and strict guidelines as to how you have to "behave" in the hobby. At a certain point it stops being fun and becomes a religion. An ideology that no one follows 100% or certain ways aren't followed(inbreeding) and others are shunned and bullied off the board(outcrossing). So both probably have about the same possibility of producing abnormalities, actually inbreeding probably moreso, but one is overlooked and the other is shunned. 

So, I'm not against hybrids, just against the idea that some people are so selfish that they would be less conservation oriented in a hobby they proclaim to be conservation oriented in. Esp when the simple answer is to track your animals. It may even lead to better breeding efforts since you may be able to find unrelated offspring to pair up easier. I'm much more against the attitude that everyone has to do things a certain way because we, even though most are in less than 2 years, need everyone to act a certain way to "protect" our hobby. Yet no one can see that the hobby is already not protected for what some would like to do. Why is it only the hobby of people who think a certain way?


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## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Aimed at the way people are driven off the board and underground because of the "no hybrid" stance.
> 
> Yes, all this I love nature and then putting frogs in an unnatural box. It seems pretty high horse to me to say that no one in the hobby should accept hybrids yet they are the one animal that you'd never have to go back to nature for because they aren't there.
> 
> ...


Roadrunner,
I agree that no one should be bullied off the forum because they do not agree with others, however I did not see any of that occurring in this thread. Anyways, in a sense, we are all guilty of manipulating nature for our own selfish reasons. Yes, it is indeed selfish to take these animals from their natural habitat and put them in a glass box. However, does that now mean that we can just screw with genetics any way we want? I personally disagree with producing hybrids in the hobby because I really do want to preserve nature's brilliant design. When we begin to mess with genetics, we begin to lose the original frog designed by nature. This could eventually lead to the loss of many of nature's beautiful designs. 

Not only that, but if we allow hybrids into the hobby, nobody would know what kind of frog they are buying or selling. Take the leopard gecko hobby for example; the gene pool is so muddied that, without breeding it to a 'pure' normal, you won't know what kind of gecko you bought. This leads to a great deal of confusion for both the seller ad the buyer, and it is possible that not every breeder will keep track of their frog's genetics, nor will every seller always tell the truth.

Furthermore, leopard geckos of the morph 'Enigma' have the tendency to carry a neurological disorder caused by the 'Enigma' gene. This is also a potential problem with producing hybrid dart frogs. These hybrid frogs could carry potential genetic issues that prevent successful development or good, long lifespans. In my opinion, there is a reason why these frogs have been so successful in nature, so I see no reason to risk that. I like these frogs just the way they are!

You do not have to conform to my beliefs, but I will tell you why I believe what I believe. And while nobody should be forced to believe what I believe, I will stand up for it regardless. I am open for debate about this of course, but I have yet to hear an argument that has swayed my position on this topic. Any thoughts?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

By picking a couple frogs and "making" a pair, you are manipulating "nature". By not allowing animals to succumb to tank problems you are manipulating "nature". Why does it only come to play when someone picks another morph to mate? you seem to be against manipulating nature in any way you choose but you are manipulating nature in the way YOU choose, while looking down on others ways.

Are the enigma's inbred or temperature manipulated to produce them?
Inbreeding can lead to the same or worse genetic problems but that's ok?


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## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> By picking a couple frogs and "making" a pair, you are manipulating "nature". By not allowing animals to succumb to tank problems you are manipulating "nature". Why does it only come to play when someone picks another morph to mate? you seem to be against manipulating nature in any way you choose but you are manipulating nature in the way YOU choose, while looking down on others ways.
> 
> Are the enigma's inbred or temperature manipulated to produce them?
> Inbreeding can lead to the same or worse genetic problems but that's ok?


Yes I agree, we are manipulating nature, as I previously stated. But again, does that justify crossbreeding? Does that justify possibly skewing the genetic lines and putting these species at risk? Does that justify potentially creating genetic illness? Does that justify messing up the market and confusing sellers and buyers alike? Technically, yes, we are all hypocrites in a way, however I still disagree with hybridizing these frogs due to the reasons stated above.

The enigmas are a result of crossbreeding morphs, not inbreeding or temperature controlled, as far as I know.

But you do bring up a good point about the inbreeding, and that is definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. This is where it does get tricky, because the need for genetic diversity could encourage more imports from the wild, which directly contradicts what the conservationists are trying to achieve. I'm not sure if crossbreeding is the answer, but inbreeding can definitely become a threat to the hobby and these animals as well. 

Just some thoughts


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> By picking a couple frogs and "making" a pair, you are manipulating "nature". By not allowing animals to succumb to tank problems you are manipulating "nature". Why does it only come to play when someone picks another morph to mate? you seem to be against manipulating nature in any way you choose but you are manipulating nature in the way YOU choose, while looking down on others ways.
> 
> Are the enigma's inbred or temperature manipulated to produce them?
> Inbreeding can lead to the same or worse genetic problems but that's ok?


The goal of a conscientious keeper should be the LEAST amount of artificial manipulation, and the closest emulation of a natural environment and wild-type animals. Concessions do need to be made for spatial and financial limitations on the part of the hobbiest, but deliberately attempting to hybridize and/or negate those goals should make it obvious where your priorities lie.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Roadrunner said:


> You are changing it by bringing it into captivity. For thousands of years they did fine and adapted to the wild.
> 
> QUOTE=Roadrunner;2226402]You want a "pure" blue frog so much that you'll take them from the wild and that's someone else's fault because YOU don't want something that may be mixed, even though you can't outwardly tell?


Yes some minor change is unavoidable if you're going to have a hobby period, and breed the animals. The changes that occur though don't keep the frog from being a blue azureus, and I see no reason to blow those minor changes out if proportion to what is changed when you go designer. Again this sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water, and a thinly veiled over rationalization in an attempt to get what they whant with no regard to it risking what we have.



Roadrunner said:


> The only thing that keeps animals coming from the wild is the thought that our genetics are subpar, even though no one can see any outward problems. Hybrids would suffice just as fine as pets it's the ego that makes them "not good enough" for you.
> 
> All I hear is that we want them pure because we want them pure and we'll accept nothing else. If you don't track lineage it's not someone else's fault because they crossed some morphs.


I see no evidence for this. New species, morphs and locales are going to be in demand as things are now, or in a designer hobby. Every new frog imported has a chance to carry new genetic possibilities for the frog designer. 

You're kidding yourself if you think they won't snap up everything even sorta newish, in the hopes of creating something even newer... and more profitable. I'm not big into snakes but pretty sure I've read about the breeders grabbing every new morph and every abberant animal that comes in to use in the hopes birthing the next big fad. I see no reason it will be different for frogs.

If you can drum everyone out of the hobby that cares about real species and morphs, and finds meaning in them being more then a "pet" franken frog, then lock down us and all the designers from getting and using any imports... Then and only then, does this start to show a hint of validity.

But we have every right to care about the frog being a "real" whatever it was in nature.



Roadrunner said:


> If you want something work towards achieving it. Wanting everyone else to conform to "the way you do it" is entitlement at it's worse.


That was my argument, and it makes much more sense when applied this way...
We could use a better management plan, but we absolutely need it as insurance in the face of a designer hobby. If the designer frog people are wanting us to shoulder most of the burden of risk then they should be the ones working for that management olqn the hardest, because what we have works well enough that most of tbe frots we have now will be around for decades. I'm glad you are against hybrids even though you just seemed to be arguing for them...

*  But here is the fundamental difference between the two camps, that I believe gives us the moral high ground...  *

* We can't legally stop anyone who is determined to create a designer frog from doing it, but if the designer frogs corrupt our captive population, we may eventually loose all possibility of having our "real" frogs, period... short of smuggling new stock in for many of them. 

What we are doing always allows what they want to be possible. 

What they want risks the possibility of destroying what have, and any future possibility to get what we want... legally.

Does that sound fair? *

I'm glad you are against hybrids, and bullying... Me too except as a last resort, because we at least have the right to fight against the possibility of getting our way destroyed by designer frog buffs. They'd like us to believe there is little or no risk, or that it may actually be better but I see way to little evidence of that. No where enough to roll over and shoulder most of the risk, so they can get their way, at the probable destruction of ours.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Do you artificially raise your tads? Esp. obligates? As I see that as less natural than crossing 2 morphs. 

What about using meds? Or supplements? And then using them for breeders? Again, in nature, none of these things happen, but hybridizing does. 

So as long as everyone's goals line up with yours in keeping frogs as a hobby it's ok though?

People don't use supplements and then come here with a sick frog and people are here with open arms, but accidently or purposefully create hybrids or even mix with the chance of creating hybrids and you're irresponsible and stabbing the hobby in the back.



Dane said:


> The goal of a conscientious keeper should be the LEAST amount of artificial manipulation, and the closest emulation of a natural environment and wild-type animals. Concessions do need to be made for spatial and financial limitations on the part of the hobbiest, but deliberately attempting to hybridize and/or negate those goals should make it obvious where your priorities lie.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Not everyone sees it as risking what we have, they see it as enjot=ying frogs in captivity, you know, a hobby.

Obviously they aren't commanding that much $ and this already happens with hobbyists snatching up everything new to make the big bucks quick. With the amount of possible combinations I don't think they'll need anything new for quite some time if ever.

Sorry I missed points but my add or aspergers or whatever won't let me get thru that many points and remember to answer. Best of luck though but remember that there is "another side" and all the same things can be said about their want to enjoy a hobby. Not to mention pushing them underground will cause a self fulfilling prophecy.



Dendro Dave said:


> Yes some minor change is unavoidable if you're going to have a hobby period, and breed the animals. The changes that occur though don't keep the frog from being a blue azureus, and I see no reason to blow those minor changes out if proportion to what is changed when you go designer. Again this sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water, and a thinly veiled over rationalization in an attempt to get what they whant with no regard to it risking what we have.
> 
> 
> I see no evidence for this. New species, morphs and locales are going to be in demand as things are now, or in a designer hobby. Every new frog imported has a chance to carry new genetic possibilities for the frog designer.
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

So can anyone explain how hybridization became the main threat to the continuation of this hobby as opposed to say any of the following (not in order of risk)? 

1) inbreeding
2) popularity cycles 
3) legislation (the pending review to determine whether to ban interstate transport of amphibians) due to risks to native species from disease transmission
4) outbreeding depression
5) other diseases such as ranaviruses and their fall out. 

One potential source of problems is the fact that a person saying they got their frogs from a reputable breeder doesn't make it so.... but if we recommend that people only buy from a reputable breeder that solves the problem... Actually no, it feeds the problem instead. Newer people aren't going to have a "reputable breeder tag" so they can have issues selling their froglets particularly if they forget who they got their frogs from... all it then takes is to make up an origin and say they got them at a show where X was vending. No paperwork no proof, hybrid risk. 

Identification based on simple visual appearance. Not as common here in the past but I'm willing to bet it still occurs on a regular basis. 

To some extent it seems like the hobby is choosing to focus on hybrids as opposed to the other risks because it takes the least amount of effort to "address" than it does the other issues. 

Hybrids are a risk but not to the extent that it requires another thread to people to make comments about how hybrids are a problem. There are close to 3000 posts that involve the word hybrid on dendroboard (and yes some are due to other uses of the word hybrid outside of a mixed morph/species frog). So its not like this is a new idea or anything and the answers on how to prevent hybrids from being an issue were ignored due to apathy on the part of the hobby yet once again, its the end of the world..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> So can anyone explain how hybridization became the main threat to the continuation of this hobby as opposed to say any of the following (not in order of risk)?
> 
> 1) inbreeding
> 2) popularity cycles
> ...


I'll admit... I am a bit disappointed that this thread is getting more attention than the one Chuck started. I felt like there was a some great info there and people were actually talking about the problems in the hobby we could/should make an effort to control. (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/217465-cross-breeding-2.html)


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

We are the result of up to 5 different hybridizations. Neanderthal, denisovans, can't find the others but found this good reading.

Human origins: Are we hybrids?


You can feed nutritionally balanced foods to crickets and other insects. You can diversify feeders and use calcium rich substrate and uv lights. Overcalcification can cause problems along with a host of other vitamin overdoses.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed said:


> So can anyone explain how hybridization became the main threat to the continuation of this hobby as opposed to say any of the following (not in order of risk)?
> 
> 1) inbreeding
> 2) popularity cycles
> ...


I could not agree more with Ed and why stated earlier an Injurious Wildlife Listing, which will ban interstate trade. I really see legislation/Rule Change and Infectious Disease as hand in hand as the top threats to the hobby. The thought/threat/creation of hybrid and out-crosses is nothing new, in fact documentation in print goes 20 years as they are published in Poison Frogs- Jewels of the Rainforest (by: Jerry Walls).


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Roadrunner said:


> We are the result of up to 5 different hybridizations. Neanderthal, denisovans, can't find the others but found this good reading.
> 
> Human origins: Are we hybrids?


Yes, but the physiological and biogeographical range limits are totally different from us to frogs. These frogs can't cover hundreds of miles in their lifetime, whereas humans (and our ancestors) could. With the frogs it is a much longer process to interbreed with some of these other populations, its not just put them in a glass box and "poof".


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Why you discriminating against frogs just because they can't migrate as well as other animals?

That's just an explanation of a procedure, not a reason not to. Habitats are similar and so is the habitat they are moved to. If the locals would bring them to a new area when they moved there, they could move quite a ways. Floods can take them a far ways down streams and storms from island to island if they aren't that far away. If they had to be that close for you to accept "crossing" it wouldn't be crossing.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

JJuchems said:


> I could not agree more with Ed and why stated earlier an Injurious Wildlife Listing, which will ban interstate trade. I really see legislation/Rule Change and Infectious Disease as hand in hand as the top threats to the hobby. The thought/threat/creation of hybrid and out-crosses is nothing new, in fact documentation in print goes 20 years as they are published in Poison Frogs- Jewels of the Rainforest (by: Jerry Walls).


Jason, thank you for your contributions to the thread, I do appreciate it. 

I ask this sincerely, do you feel as though today's hybrid / out-cross threat level, if you will, is equal to what it was 5, 10, or 15 years ago? What do others feel?

My experience only goes back around five years or a little more. To me, things look very different in terms of hybrids than they did five or even three years ago. Five years ago hybrids seemed to be rarely spoken of, never mind people selling hybrids commercially or photographing hybrids for us as marketing images. 

I don't know the answer to this, but did leopard geckos and ball pythons start with a pure morph that went astray somewhere on the timeline? 

Brad


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> Do you artificially raise your tads? Esp. obligates? As I see that as less natural than crossing 2 morphs.
> 
> What about using meds? Or supplements? And then using them for breeders? Again, in nature, none of these things happen, but hybridizing does.


How and why would I be artificially raising obligate tads? I tub-raise some of the larvae that I get from non-obligates in a competitive environment, and let the adults do what they will with the rest. Most are able to tank-raise, and I enjoy witnessing this natural behavior.

I use meds when they are professionally suggested, and I supplement as often as necessary to maintain some semblance of a dietary balance. I'm currently only feeding a mix of 10 insect species, which is worlds below what they would naturally have access to, which is why I supplement. 

Not supplementing captive frogs will kill them more quickly than waiting to determine if morph-crossing will render them generationally obsolite or detrimental. I don't see why you would make the comparison.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

To make more money, or to "get the numbers of that rare species up quicker".

Others may think that having to use meds on a frog should keep it from being in a breeding program. Some may want to breed out deleterious alleles in it's new environment and inbreed to make a frog line better resistant to things like coccidia, Rana, bacteria and parasites that thrive in a humid stagnant environment.

No it won't. I've had someone forget about a frog in their care and find them in the tank over 10 months later with no feeding let alone supplements. I've not used many supplements in the past when feeding crickets a wide variety of veggies and dog food. You don't NEED to supplement. And with that reasoning, you may be overdoing it a bit.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Roadrunner said:


> To make more money, or to "get the numbers of that rare species up quicker".
> 
> Others may think that having to use meds on a frog should keep it from being in a breeding program. Some may want to breed out deleterious alleles in it's new environment and inbreed to make a frog line better resistant to things like coccidia, Rana, bacteria and parasites that thrive in a humid stagnant environment.
> 
> No it won't. I've had someone forget about a frog in their care and find them in the tank over 10 months later with no feeding let alone supplements. I've not used many supplements in the past when feeding crickets a wide variety of veggies and dog food. You don't NEED to supplement. And with that reasoning, you may be overdoing it a bit.


That is not true. We have obligates that will not live for 6 months without calcium supplements. It very much depends on the type of frog.

Brad


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Dendrobati said:


> That is not true. We have obligates that will not live for 6 months without calcium supplements. It very much depends on the type of frog.
> 
> Brad


I believe there have been posts on here of obligates being "lost" in a tank and not feed for 6+ months and the frog being found alive and doing fine.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ed said:


> So can anyone explain how hybridization became the main threat to the continuation of this hobby as opposed to say any of the following (not in order of risk)?


I can and did in the other thread. 

People who have power have more vested interest in squashing a threat to their power sources. 

IE powerful breeders who have rare frogs worth a lot of money or with lines to importers, they can see a serious threat to their power and money line coming from interest in new designer frogs which might lower interest in rare or new locals therefore lowering the prices. Such a powerful breeder has pull in the community one way or another they can gain favor with admins by offering first access to offspring or they may be an admin already they might just have a pretty good following. They have power to trade with importers and other powerful breeders who want their frogs all this on top of them just making more money for the same amount of work. All of this is threatened by the possibility of the value of those frogs taking a dive bomb and or the rise of mega line breeders who have huge collections and produce tons of animals in hopes of getting the one tongue less frog(lol). These same people have a conflict of interest when it comes to inbreeding families because for them making a sale of 4 frogs is better than 2, and for them if they truly have a rare frog they would rather not see people turn their backs to such a frog because the only offspring available are all from 1 parent. So they sweep inbreeding under the rug while going to war against hybrids. 

I have on occasion personally had reputable breeders try to argue with me that it is actually better for me to get all my frogs from one source for reasons as wide as microbiomes to the claim they are all from a related group anyway. 

BTW I have seen this same exact power struggle and failure to properly address problems play out in many other hobbies of mine as diverse as paintball and PC gaming and I learned the reality is the people with power call the shots period, right or wrong. That's why when dendroboard was taken over by VS we had a huge power struggle as others tried to take control (and failed) and some resorted in pretty dirty tactics to do so and none were willing enough to band together.


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## toostrange (Sep 19, 2013)

Pubfiction said:


> I can and did in the other thread.
> 
> People who have power have more vested interest in squashing a threat to their power sources.
> 
> ...


IMO I think the exact opposite would happen the one with the new imports would be making all the money. Even the designers will want pure stock as a base to work from.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> No it won't. I've had someone forget about a frog in their care and find them in the tank over 10 months later with no feeding let alone supplements. I've not used many supplements in the past when feeding crickets a wide variety of veggies and dog food. You don't NEED to supplement. And with that reasoning, you may be overdoing it a bit.


If 10 months is your frame of reference on dart frog lifespan, and you don't want anything better for your animals, then yes, you will do just fine without any dietary ammendments.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I beg to differ. They will do fine without supplements if you feed a diverse diet and feed your crickets(and other feeders) well with a diverse diet. By adding UV they can produce their own Vit. D and with calcium in the substrate they can get enough of that.
Harder, maybe, but quite doable and more natural than dusting food. With all the dusting we may be choosing for animals that can handle more vit and min than they do in the wild.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Let's stay on topic ladies and gents.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> With all the dusting we may be choosing for animals that can handle more vit and min than they do in the wild.


Just as a point of correction, this is not supported by the animal nutritional literature. There can be increased demands due to stressors such as reproduction or growth but the general needs don't change. This is so highly conserved across taxa that as noted by Exotic Animal Nutritionist DVM, S. Donoghue that the frogs requirements fit within that of domestic animals (and yes she did use a dendrobatid to develop the data (D. auratus)) or that pigs are used a stand in for people for nutritional studies. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> People who have power have more vested interest in squashing a threat to their power sources.
> 
> IE powerful breeders who have rare frogs worth a lot of money or with lines to importers, they can see a serious threat to their power and money line coming from interest in new designer frogs which might lower interest in rare or new locals therefore lowering the prices.


 Adding hybrid frogs to the market isn't going to reduce demand for rare species or new imports. We can look at one of the most morph driven market (ball pythons) and check the imports of ranched babies to see that demand has not decreased. Between 2000 and 2013 more than 1,800,000 ball pythons have been imported into the United States without any signs of a decline in the importations over that period. If the market for rare frogs was under threat by hybrids then hybrids would potentially command better prices so it would be economically viable for those breeders to create hybrids and use their status to get them accepted. 
The scenario you posit doesn't stand up to the economics of the situation. 

I can think of one person that wanted to control prices but that person lacked the support to even try to regulate the prices (and it was pointed out to them that it was illegal by more than one person) but none of them have participated in these threads. The major breeders I know with the rarer frogs aren't worried about hybrids..... 



Pubfiction said:


> Such a powerful breeder has pull in the community one way or another they can gain favor with admins by offering first access to offspring or they may be an admin already they might just have a pretty good following. They have power to trade with importers and other powerful breeders who want their frogs all this on top of them just making more money for the same amount of work.


Dude really? I have to say that this is more than a little far fetched..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> I beg to differ. They will do fine without supplements if you feed a diverse diet and feed your crickets(and other feeders) well with a diverse diet. By adding UV they can produce their own Vit. D and with calcium in the substrate they can get enough of that.
> Harder, maybe, but quite doable and more natural than dusting food. With all the dusting we may be choosing for animals that can handle more vit and min than they do in the wild.


The purpose of supplementation is to provide the nutrients that they are unable to receive in captivity due to the limitations of a captive environment. It is near impossible to replicate the complex and diverse diet of a wild dart frog, therefore, adjustments must be made to the captive animal's diet. It is also difficult to provide an extremely diverse diet to these frogs in captivity because there is only a few widely available sources of food accessible to the great majority of hobbyists, and the costs of these foods can quickly add up. So far, culturing fruit flies and using supplements such a calcium and Vit.A has proven to be an effective feeding method, and is widely accepted among hobbyists. So some manipulation IS NEEDED in order to keep these animals alive in captivity. With that being said, many of the members of Dendroboard are strongly conservation-minded, and believe that the hybridization of these frogs is unnecessary manipulation for several reasons. Just because we are already manipulating nature to a degree, that doesn't mean we should go all out and do whatever we want, regardless of the possible negative consequences. I believe that once one takes on ownership of an animal, there are some ethical guidelines that one should follow, and not hybridizing these frogs is one that I personally agree with.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

So an animal can't adapt thru breeding selection to a higher(toxic or would cause problems to other animals) level of any vitamins or minerals? I know some animals have adapted to expel salt and haven't some adapted to handle calcium amounts that would cause bone problems in other animals?

Or if you overdosed vit a or gave too little vit a and chose animals that did the best, they wouldn't adapt over time to do better under those conditions? Even thru reduced activity or breeding?




Ed said:


> Just as a point of correction, this is not supported by the animal nutritional literature. There can be increased demands due to stressors such as reproduction or growth but the general needs don't change. This is so highly conserved across taxa that as noted by Exotic Animal Nutritionist DVM, S. Donoghue that the frogs requirements fit within that of domestic animals (and yes she did use a dendrobatid to develop the data (D. auratus)) or that pigs are used a stand in for people for nutritional studies.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I think it's noble that a group doesn't want to hybridize or own hybrids. Where you draw the line is reasonable as it's gotta be drawn somewhere.

Personally, I couldn't own darts and dust and preach vet care and all the things you do and then inbreed and choose my own pairings and yell at someone for mixing or crossing frogs as long as they are honest. Just because you see it a certain way doesn't mean everyone has to. I've presented a lot showing that no one here is a purest and that hybridizing is natural, more natural than a lot of methods used here which don't allow for the fittest of offspring either. Hybridizing may not even lead to problems as their may be some hybrid vigor and it may produce a more fit frog if there is a already a problem with inbreeding in a morph.

Does anyone have any stats on statistical significance of problems of line breeding and out crossing/hybridizing as opposed to "natural breeding" and what problems are encountered and what the probability is that any cross will have problems resulting in unfit offspring? Preferably at least with amphibians in the study?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't think their diet is that complex and diverse. EU bred darts for a long time without supplements. Supplements allow for feeding a lot more and breeding a lot more, which is not natural. There are no real limitations with 5-10 feeders as they eat a lot of different things(waxworms can be made to eat lots of concoctions, crickets, springtails and other mites and grain mites you've got all the food groups.  ). They do it in nature and no one dusts, it's not as needed as you think.

Believe me there are a lot of methods you guys "accept" that aren't as natural or ethical as you think. 


brendan0923 said:


> The purpose of supplementation is to provide the nutrients that they are unable to receive in captivity due to the limitations of a captive environment. It is near impossible to replicate the complex and diverse diet of a wild dart frog, therefore, adjustments must be made to the captive animal's diet. It is also difficult to provide an extremely diverse diet to these frogs in captivity because there is only a few widely available sources of food accessible to the great majority of hobbyists, and the costs of these foods can quickly add up. So far, culturing fruit flies and using supplements such a calcium and Vit.A has proven to be an effective feeding method, and is widely accepted among hobbyists. So some manipulation IS NEEDED in order to keep these animals alive in captivity. With that being said, many of the members of Dendroboard are strongly conservation-minded, and believe that the hybridization of these frogs is unnecessary manipulation for several reasons. Just because we are already manipulating nature to a degree, that doesn't mean we should go all out and do whatever we want, regardless of the possible negative consequences. I believe that once one takes on ownership of an animal, there are some ethical guidelines that one should follow, and not hybridizing these frogs is one that I personally agree with.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Well i have ADD too, and the short term memory of a goldfish. Once around the bowl and it is all new to me... but I manage. I'll you the benefit of the doubt, but my gut says "cop out". (Accepting this help and doing it would go a long way towards proving my gug wrong)

First highligh quote text (called a tag) with [ name of person quoting, and some.numbers] 

Control c to copy it all including the brackets, then put the cursor where you want it and control V and paste before the section you want to respond to...

Then at the end of each section put [/quote] and then reply to the quote below it.

Probably a youtube tutorial that would help. Knowing how to do this is often vital if you are serious about having a real discussion or debate online. Yep found a YouTube vivs, 2mins init gets to the good part...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrqLv__bFzk




Roadrunner said:


> Not everyone sees it as risking what we have, they see it as enjot=ying frogs in captivity, you know, a hobby.


True and but I have yet to hear them give us a realistic method of how to go about it in a way that prevents thier animals from mixing with ours, has a syatem that racks all the frogs and their that most will use diligently, and has safe guards against fraud so records cant be altered to make it seem like they have genes they don't. 

No way to keep the unimformed or just lazy from doing ther own thing even with peer peessure because people could hide or launder frogs through others, some will just out right lie and since they have their mixing buddies more people will cover for them. 

If people don't see the risk, they aren't looking. What perhaps you mean to say "Is no risk because they don't care if we loose our hobby, as long as they can have theirs."

It opens up so many more situations where less then ethical people can pull some BS, and have people protect them because maybe they benefit too, or don't care enough to tell the ones that would care because that's not their crowd.

All the risk is on us... Can you offer one example where hybrids or designer plants and animals didn't put the.pur stock at any risk? Where years later you could easily find any pure one instead of a.cluster fudge of hybrids. Can you promise us our blue azureus and all the others won't become so mixed up we can't have a reasonle idea of what we buy actually is, or that it will breed true?


Roadrunner said:


> Obviously they aren't commanding that much $ and this already happens with hobbyists snatching up everything new to make the big bucks quick. With the amount of possible combinations I don't think they'll need anything new for quite some time if ever.


Need, maybe not but I bet they'all want it and get it if they can, so they can see what they can make out of it...possibly using whatever pure stock is left


Roadrunner said:


> Sorry I missed points but my add or aspergers or whatever won't let me get thru that many points and remember to answer. Best of luck though but remember that there is "another side" and all the same things can be said about their want to enjoy a hobby. Not to mention pushing them underground will cause a self fulfilling prophecy.


*Actually here is a really big fundamental diiference between us and them, that I believe gives us the moral high ground... *
*
We can't legally stop anyone who is determined to create a designer frog from doing it, but if the designer frogs corrupt our captive population, we may eventually loose all possibility of having our "real" frogs, period... short of smuggling new stock in for many of them. 

What we are doing always allows what they want to be possible. 

What they want risks the possibility of destroying what have, and any future possibility to get what we want... legally.

Does that sound fair?*

*I don't see how anyone new can come into an established hobby community and in good conscience try to remake face of that hobby doing something that will put what we had at risk dilution, or even destruction, with the main jistifation has ,"Well I though I could make a.cooler looking frog". These frogs are valued for far more then the colors and patterns, and we care that the "real" frogs are out there, and we get the privilege to keep on just like it... How does anyone with a moral compass, read that as a good direction??? *

So you don't just risk the genetic integrity of the frogs and us possibly never again being able to get a real blue azureus, you destroy the meaning, and my fun. You kill my fun when I knew you are our there working hard to dilute every frog I love in a pae imitation of its wild cousins. And if those are extinct, then we have nothing but mutt and hopefully the address of the guy who started that frogs destruction so we can pay them a friendly visit 

So we can't stop designer frogs, but they could end our pure frogs

We can stop you from having fun with your mutts, but now my frogs are gone and your frogs aren't fun for me. So you took the joy out of something here long before you, and should have been there long after you, but you killed it for me and a lot of others.

*That's the designer dirty little secret, they can always do and enjoy what they want even if we give them a hard time, which is about all we can do..

Best they can do is mix our frogs out of existence, and can cost us everything... but they'all be fine, so what do they care?*

Unless they come up with a bulletproof way to protect our hobby, any damage done to, or the destruction of our ways, everything we love, and our fun is on them. Damn even if you want a hybrid.

Blind selfish desire filled at the expense of what others had, before you showed up and killed or even just out it at risk. ...How do you justify that level of selfishness?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

All I can say is that if the hobby wants pure bred frogs, the hobby has had and still has many ways to track and keep pure bred frogs. All the fearmongering of loosing morphs is just that, fearmongering. You think that aurataenia and all the vittatus and tricolors will stay around if there aren't hybrids?

If the hobby looses morphs it's because the hobby didn't maintain them, mostly from not being popular. The Panama canal zone blue auratus may not be around because of other panama blue auratus or just from lack of interest because they were so shy if you didn't set them up well, not hybrids. Do you think you can force people to breed pure frogs if they just like to mix animals and see what comes out? How do you know your frogs aren't hybrids now if you aren't tracking them or getting unknown lineage frogs to breed?

Panther chameleons have both locale specific and crossed populations as pets, don't they? 

Think you have the moral high ground but don't be angry when some don't see it that way. I haven't seen proof of any problems let alone more than what normally occurs thru accepted practices, with hybridizing. Everything is may or might with no quantification or qualification.

And now your trying to tug at my heart strings? How could they do such things? Well if they didn't lie about anything they did nothing wrong and if no one tracked them or they had such lax qualifications for a breeding program, the latter would be at fault. Don't put it on the hybridizer if you don't know what you have. More hybrids have probably been created from mislabeling or acceptance of unknowns than known hybridizations.

Too tired, should've waited till tomorrow. And sorry, I don't like being on the computer but sometimes use it for socialization so I'd rather not get into the habit of dissecting peoples posts and spending tons of time at it. No offense. And some of your posts are pretty long to read thru and comprehend( I know, mine tend to be also, takes one to know one ) And I'm pretty sure we've nailed it down to Aspergers.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Dendrobati said:


> I ask this sincerely, do you feel as though today's hybrid / out-cross threat level, if you will, is equal to what it was 5, 10, or 15 years ago? What do others feel?
> 
> My experience only goes back around five years or a little more. To me, things look very different in terms of hybrids than they did five or even three years ago. Five years ago hybrids seemed to be rarely spoken of, never mind people selling hybrids commercially or photographing hybrids for us as marketing images.


And hobby has changed since February 14, 2004 when Joe Hickson announced on Frognet he and some friends created this interactive website called "DendroBoard.com" We are fortunate enough to have ADG Newsletters, Frognet Archive, Frognet, Dendroboard and as Ed pointed out look at the number of threads that are returned in a search for hybrids. I would not say they were rarely spoken off, just not a blatant thread that has been split and on going to a point that reading the thread is like reading a novel of 1456 post plus post if you add both thread and going on for about a year. And every so often a hybrid image pops up "look what I accidentally created mixing species/morph", "did you see this classified ad" or attend a show and someone has a weird looking frog for sale and you find out they mixed their leucs and tinc because "I wanted a colorful tank." I can recall an ad on Kingsnake in 2012 of a hybrid being offered. We are certainly more connected, dart frogs are more available, and we have an on going thread. 

If your fear is based on one business they have yet to prove any success of mass sales and the sad part is they don't want to participate in the hobby. The only recourse is to continue to educate against the practice. 

*We combat this by educating on websites, forums, literature, meetings, and purchasing/trading from hobbyist we know who are not participating in out-crossing or hybridizing. Speaking with folks who are in the "norms" must be done in a civilized manor. 

This is the role of the hobby seeking to maintain wild type or natural occurring dart frogs, not the role of a commission or group. * 



Dendrobati said:


> I don't know the answer to this, but did leopard geckos and ball pythons start with a pure morph that went astray somewhere on the timeline?




"Pure morph" Morphs in these herps are selectively bred. Some are line bred and created by refinement through selective breeding and others are recessive and (co)dominate trait bred. Some are a mixture of line bred and alleles.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> All the risk is on us... Can you offer one example where hybrids or designer plants and animals didn't put the.pur stock at any risk? Where years later you could easily find any pure one instead of a.cluster fudge of hybrids. Can you promise us our blue azureus and all the others won't become so mixed up we can't have a reasonle idea of what we buy actually is, or that it will breed true?


Can you provide any examples in herpetculture where a wild type has been diminished by hybrids? 

I think of the dart frog hobby as being very similar to the Rhacodactylus and day Gecko hobby. I have yet to see it in the larger hobby of keeping New Caledonian Geckos (former genus Rhacodactylus). There are larger breeders who put out out-crosses purposefully (Philippe de Vosjoli Leachie crosses) and created some accidentally (move during wildfires) 



Dendro Dave said:


> Need, maybe not but I bet they'all want it and get it if they can, so they can see what they can make out of it...possibly using whatever pure stock is left


Again, can you provide examples?

You know I do not support hybrid/out-crosses and I do not want to give support to those who are doing it, but your claims sounds a bit ridiculous. So if you know any I am sincerely interested.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> Can you provide any examples in herpetculture where a wild type has been diminished by hybrids?
> 
> I think of the dart frog hobby as being very similar to the Rhacodactylus and day Gecko hobby. I have yet to see it in the larger hobby of keeping New Caledonian Geckos (former genus Rhacodactylus). There are larger breeders who put out out-crosses purposefully (Philippe de Vosjoli Leachie crosses) and created some accidentally (move during wildfires)


Well someone earlier mentioned a plant that after hybrids got popular and the main growers were hit by storms became hard to find if not extinct. I think some others mentioned some.more.
Off the top of my head...
When I was researching leapord geckos years ago seemed like a wild type wasnt all thst commonat least not one hat wasn't het for something crossed with something else dominate for bla bla was pretty hard to find. Like no matter what i bought it was gonna poop out at least 2 different colors if not more

And indeed i encountered discussions on those forums.about the issue, and my over all take away was "wow, this hobby is a cluster fudge of mutts... God, I hope this isn't the future for darts")



JJuchems said:


> Again, can you provide examples?
> 
> You know I do not support hybrid/out-crosses and I do not want to give support to those who are doing it, but your claims sounds a bit ridiculous. So if you know any I am sincerely interested.


There are usually king snake ads for new morphs or abberant snakes, often with some comment like "this will make a great breeding project with x snake" 

I'm not plugged into those hobbies like this and can't link you to something off hand but isn't there usually some fad hybrid snake or new natural color morph that some eventually tries to cross with something'l else? I have memories of this from ads, other forums, thumbing through a reptile mag at petco checkout, listening to people at shows or customers when I worked at petco go on about their snakes.

I think I've heard of such things in the fish hobbies to. So I'm short on specfic examples but have an impression based on 10 years stumbling around many other animal hobbies and the plant world.

But it seems the risk is real, and there are some examples at least, and whether or not it can or will go bad I question the ethics of those that show up and would force that risk on us even in the face of a lot of opposition. Also I just see no reason to think we won't be getting the shaft somewhere, especially with a certain company who has already demonstrated a willingness to lie, use sleazy marketing and shov BS pseudoscience in our face is leading the charge to our brave new world, of "I have no idea what this is, but if I want a blue azureus frog this is as close as I'm gonna get".


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Well you lucked out, lost most of the original reply so you get the short(ish) version.



Roadrunner said:


> All I can say is that if the hobby wants pure bred frogs, the hobby has had and still has many ways to track and keep pure bred frogs. All the fearmongering of loosing morphs is just that, fearmongering. You think that aurataenia and all the vittatus and tricolors will stay around if there aren't hybrids?


So your saying in effect "no mean yes", and "it's our fault because of what we were wearing"?
How does us not tracking our frogs as well as possible, make it OK for someone to just come in and force a lot of risk of loosing what we have on to us. The risk (possibility) is basically self evident, because we've seen many examples of damage done through the same kinds of actions. 



Roadrunner said:


> If the hobby looses morphs it's because the hobby didn't maintain them, mostly from not being popular. The Panama canal zone blue auratus may not be around because of other panama blue auratus or just from lack of interest because they were so shy if you didn't set them up well, not hybrids. Do you think you can force people to breed pure frogs if they just like to mix animals and see what comes out? How do you know your frogs aren't hybrids now if you aren't tracking them or getting unknown lineage frogs to breed?


Shouldn't the hobby decide how to manage its frogs and shouldn't people be respectful of their consensus? What is tbe ethical justidicarion here for one or a few forcing change on us against our will? Especially when we can't actually stop them from getting what we want but what they want to do at least has some risk of destroying what we have and can have in the future?



Roadrunner said:


> Panther chameleons have both locale specific and crossed populations as pets, don't they?


That is another hobby, but I just saw an unknown morph for sake on KS, if someone breeds that to a known one and someone looses track of the info someone who wanted a pure bred or a very specific cross may not end up with what they wanted. I don't know what risk they willingly accept as part of there standard practices, If i was involved in that hobby i would respect standard practices, and not hold myself up as the new Cham God who will now determine the future of their hobby for them.



Roadrunner said:


> Think you have the moral high ground but don't be angry when some don't see it that way. I haven't seen proof of any problems let alone more than what normally occurs thru accepted practices, with hybridizing. Everything is may or might with no quantification or qualification.


Ya I think the fact that we can't stop them, but what they can do might possibly destroy what we have or can have in the future and many of them seem perfectly willing to force that risk upon us... definitely is a point in favor of us having the moral high ground.

You haven't seen any problems? Did you see this...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...frog-safedartfrogs-designerfrogs-usafrog.html

So there we have in my opinion a proven liar producing thousands of frogs and selling pure blood next to mixed morphs, practicing sleazy and deceptive marketing, and already a few cases of buyer's remorse because they had no idea what they were getting into, and now can't be sure what they got. Oh and a large # of people consider all frogs from that source tainted, not just the mixed morphs because they feel the vendor can't be trusted. 

There is also the people the vendor learned from and bought from under the expextation they would respect standard hobby practices....So betrayal, and harm done there. Oh and of course some of those frogs will switch hands and/or their offspring will and some noon or jerk that doesn't care will cross them to pure stock and some unsuspecting buyer who was in live with the idea of having a true Surinam blue azureus, will end up with a mutt that once people find out about many won't touch and might even be a jerk to that guy ( not fair, but still harm caused by designer frogs).

So huge problems already, and more in the horizon.


Roadrunner said:


> And now your trying to tug at my heart strings? How could they do such things? Well if they didn't lie about anything they did nothing wrong and if no one tracked them or they had such lax qualifications for a breeding program, the latter would be at fault. Don't put it on the hybridizer if you don't know what you have. More hybrids have probably been created from mislabeling or acceptance of unknowns than known hybridizations.


 Yes, what was I thinking holding poeple responsible for the consequences of their actions. Also I don't see how you can feel telling a community to go screw itself while forcing change and risk on them against their will doesn't amount to doing something wrong and selfish because they want a custom frog or to make a few bucks, when it could destroy what that community loves,.. Really that isn't wrong?


Roadrunner said:


> Too tired, should've waited till tomorrow. And sorry, I don't like being on the computer but sometimes use it for socialization so I'd rather not get into the habit of dissecting peoples posts and spending tons of time at it. No offense. And some of your posts are pretty long to read thru and comprehend( I know, mine tend to be also, takes one to know one ) And I'm pretty sure we've nailed it down to Aspergers.


Fair enough, not an uncommon sentiment... especially among the pro designer crowd in the face of our extremely valid arguments.
......
...
..

PS. Sorry for more then usual typos. Got frustrated and lazy after phone loosing multiple reply attempts, and trying to reply thoughtfully to multiple posters.


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## auratusross (Jan 3, 2011)

First of all i am completely against hybrids!

The truth is if people want to create hybrids, given the right conditions for the frogs, they can and will! All they have to do is log off here and nobody is saying anything about it, when its just them and their frogs!

I think it is a very small number of people who want to do this, and im unsure as to WHY?? maybe out of curiosity or foolishly thinking there is a market for them.

Ive read in an earlier post claiming possibly healthier frogs? There are loads of threads on why just mixing is a potential risk to health, never mind hybridizing. Instead of trying to breed hybrid frogs to better suit captivity, i personally think it would make a lot more sense to create the captive environment better suited to the frogs!! Would it not make more sense to try and replicate the locality your NATURALLY occurring frogs are from and try to replicate that as best as possible. Lights dont flick on and off in the wild, use dimmers. Study the different temperatures or rainfall amounts throughout the different months and replicate that. Put suitable frogs through aestivation etc This is the route i would like to see the hobby go! Not ruin naturally occurring populations in the hobby because of our husbandry. Thinking the frogs need to suit us. Its not like naturally occuring frogs are dropping like flies is it!!?

Ok, so its not the health issue, you just want a cool looking frog?...there are hundreds to choose from with all varying price ranges. If you cant find a naturally occurring color or pattern in the dart frog hobby that you like, then im sorry why are you even in it?? 

Maybe you think there is a niche market for hybrids and your gunna be rich by creating something "new" like people do in other herp hobbies? WRONG!! People discover "new" dart frogs in the wild that enter the pet trade, which dont fetch any where near the type of prices snakes do!! and there is a massive market for "new" locale specific frogs! Look at tesoros de colombia for example. They are breeding the first captive bred legal exports of what the hobby seemingly wants. Legal,Sustainable, "new" frogs with pure unrelated bloodlines. F1,2,3 generations. Yet they still relied on donations to get where they are and didnt really seem to get much support in that (dedicated few). Even once the frogs were available they didnt 'fly off the shelves' so to speak. So if you think your going to get rich quick, with your mix of two tincs or whatever it is you cross, that you can pick up the naturally occurring frog for probably less than £50 your very wrong. There is NO market for them!! 

Maybe your just curious as to what will happen if you mix X with X frog. Ok humans are curious and want to 'experiment". So you do, and create hybrids with the intention to never let them be released. But this isnt always going to be the case is it! Because some times life throws you lemons! Many people come and go from the hobby for various reasons and this is when the issue really starts!! What happens to your hybrids when you split with your partner and have to move out, have a child and need the cash or maybe even the room they are kept in? I personally sold my collection a few years ago because i went to work abroad. I didnt see that one coming when i was buying my frogs, nobody (other than flippers) buys frogs with the intention to not keep them 'forever.' People pass away, any number of reasons can occur as to why this wont be the case. The point im making is this is how they can and will then be released into the hobby. People wont be able to sell them, so people WILL lie to make money. Selling them as "pure" when they are hybrid to make the sale because they need them gone! There is no market for hybrids in the hobby!! Clever marketing by one US website may have got them a few sales but then as soon as the customers turn up here they seem to regret making the purchase once educated why it is so important to keep an Oyapock an Oyapock etc.

You cant tell 100% what type of frog a lot of the naturally occurring frogs are just by looking at them. So once you add hybrids in the mix its a complete mine field for those who want to keep naturally occurring morphs. (most of the hobby in my experience) The key then is to only buy off people YOU trust and or only buy wild caught frogs. Which creates problems of its own (inbreeding from only buying from your trusted source. Potential diseases/parasites/health issues with imported frogs. Impact on wild populations etc)

I only see problems with producing hybrids and no benefits to the hobby or frogs at all.

I agree with posts above saying that education is key. 

Threads like this help people see both sides to the story and im yet to see anybody read one and say "yep i wanna create hybrids now ive seen both sides of the story" 

At the end of the day it all just comes down to personal opinion, and that ramble ^^^ is mine 

Ross


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

No. It's what you were doing, not wearing. That is, not keeping track of what's what if that's what you wanted.
No. It's a hobby, not a democracy. 
No, who cares. It's not up to a "hobby" to decide what each individual does. Doesn't happen in the loe gecko hobby or ball python, they cross. Who voted and why wasn't I counted? No one is forcing any risk on you. Why are you the victim? Because there is a risk you could be dupped and not get the frog you want? And so what of USA frog. So what if they produce hybrids and pure breds in the same facility. You think the pure breds will get infected? Dude your really stretching here. Just don't accept frogs from them into the studbooks if you don't trust them, simple. What they are doing could've been done by anyone without telling anyone and just lying. They don't put anything at risk "the hobby" does by it's methods and ACCEPTED PRACTICE. I think the waschers may have bought from me and htey signed nothing about staying within "accepted hobby practice" as a matter of fact I wouldn't have known what that was to get them to agree. No one is telling a community to go screw itself. It's not wrong what they do at all, except the lies, what's wrong is the entitlement attitude that the hobby has. So it's even the fault of the hybridizers the way you treat people?
Cmon Dave, really? You're just blaming everything on them aren't you? And right now the hobby is being held responsible for it's actions. It didn't track pure lines and it may loose them, although probably not. I still haven't seen any physical problems manifested in frogs because of out crossing or hybridizing. You don't have the "moral high ground" you are just playing the victim.


Dendro Dave said:


> Well you lucked out, lost most of the original reply so you get the short(ish) version.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SDK (Aug 11, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> So an animal can't adapt thru breeding selection to a higher(toxic or would cause problems to other animals) level of any vitamins or minerals? I know some animals have adapted to expel salt and haven't some adapted to handle calcium amounts that would cause bone problems in other animals?
> 
> Or if you overdosed vit a or gave too little vit a and chose animals that did the best, they wouldn't adapt over time to do better under those conditions? Even thru reduced activity or breeding?


Feeding European crickets gutloaded with dog food and vegetables that are not native to the same areas as the frogs is not more "natural" than using supplements. It is just a different way to arrive at the same destination.

Also, I would argue that your system is "less" ethical. Supplements at least have a track record of success, and are tailored to the frogs needs through traceable science. What methodology do you use to monitor exactly what nutrients, and in what ratios you are providing your frogs? How are you tracking your food rotation to ensure that is stays consistent over the months and years these frogs can live?


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Roadrunner said:


> Aimed at the way people are driven off the board and underground because of the "no hybrid" stance.


It is their choice to "go underground." If you feel what you are doing is right, stand by your choice and make an argument for it, even if others disagree. If what you are doing is wrong and/or against the ethics of the greater community, then I can see why they go underground. Still, there is a choice. However, suggesting that voicing your opinion is bullying is not right. You are voicing your opinion...shouldn't everyone get that option, even if you don't agree? Since when has two people with differing viewpoints became bullying?



Roadrunner said:


> Yes, all this I love nature and then putting frogs in an unnatural box. It seems pretty high horse to me to say that no one in the hobby should accept hybrids yet they are the one animal that you'd never have to go back to nature for because they aren't there.


I am picking up on your sarcasm...because I keep little slices of the rainforest (as best as possible) in my home does not mean that I am not conservation-minded. The point is to try to make the least impact on the environment possible with our hobby. My goal is to also try to preserve what nature has created and not try to create something else. Besides, why can't a hobby also take part in conservation? What is to say that one day, our little jewels won't be the only left in the world? Not because we have "raped" nature of all the frogs for the hobby, but because environmental changes, deforestation, pathogens, etc. have killed them all off. When that happens, maybe our hobby will have the only remaining representatives of the wild population. Isn't that worth something?



Roadrunner said:


> I'm "against" hybrids because people want pure frogs and hybrids will drive these people to rape nature more, possibly, out of paranoia that there frogs will produce still borns, or frogs with 5 eyes, or the wrong color, etc. The air of "I want what I want and that's pure bred frogs" is pretty idealistic and radical, for pets in glass boxes. I'm not against anyone doing what they want as long as they are telling the truth.


I am against anything that will create an unsustainable hobby, hybrids or not. I think that this argument could be made by either side of this coin. As a hobby, regardless of your stance on hybridization, we need to promote conservation. As far as hybrids creating genetic issues, this is only one argument against hybrids, but certainly not the only argument. How does hybridization occur? We put two different frogs together, yes...in the same environment? Doesn't that create stress to the frog? Possible exposure to pathogens they may not be equipped to deal with? Should it be examined that how we house them affects the health of the animal? If people are selfish for wanting pure lines, what do we call people who want to create hybrids? Just a thought.



Roadrunner said:


> Part of the reason they are not as popular is because of the anti hybrid, knowing every morph and area they come from and strict guidelines as to how you have to "behave" in the hobby. At a certain point it stops being fun and becomes a religion. An ideology that no one follows 100% or certain ways aren't followed(inbreeding) and others are shunned and bullied off the board(outcrossing). So both probably have about the same possibility of producing abnormalities, actually inbreeding probably moreso, but one is overlooked and the other is shunned.


We do need to look at our hobby and improve on the areas that need improvement. It is true that people do not follow all of the guidelines 100%, and they probably never will. This does not mean that we do not try to be better. Idealism has been given a bad rap. Idealism is something we strive for and may never achieve. However, because we will never achieve is does not mean that we should throw out all of goals. By religion, I am assuming that you mean ideals that people just parrot without thought or reason? I think that part of this discussion is proof that we don't want to just blindly follow what others say, but want sound reasoning behind what we do and don't do. If, through this discussion, we can continue to be educated on our hobby, it is a good thing, regardless of our initial stance. I am not above the idea that my mind cannot be changed...I have been wrong many, many, many...times before .



Roadrunner said:


> So, I'm not against hybrids, just against the idea that some people are so selfish that they would be less conservation oriented in a hobby they proclaim to be conservation oriented in. Esp when the simple answer is to track your animals. It may even lead to better breeding efforts since you may be able to find unrelated offspring to pair up easier. I'm much more against the attitude that everyone has to do things a certain way because we, even though most are in less than 2 years, need everyone to act a certain way to "protect" our hobby. Yet no one can see that the hobby is already not protected for what some would like to do. Why is it only the hobby of people who think a certain way?


There are rules, laws, codes of ethics that govern all of us. Allowing humans to do whatever they want without consequence has not worked throughout history. When we do, only bad things seem to happen. Therefore, I like that DB has set forth some ethical guidelines to follow. This is not to say they are absolute and cannot be changed, but it gives us a starting point. The fact that I have been in this hobby for a comparatively short time may mean that I do not have some of the perspective that others have, but to suggest that it somehow makes me less of a member of this community is wrong. Sorry for the delayed response...


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Roadrunner said:


> All I can say is that if the hobby wants pure bred frogs, the hobby has had and still has many ways to track and keep pure bred frogs. All the fearmongering of loosing morphs is just that, fearmongering. You think that aurataenia and all the vittatus and tricolors will stay around if there aren't hybrids?
> 
> If the hobby looses morphs it's because the hobby didn't maintain them, mostly from not being popular. The Panama canal zone blue auratus may not be around because of other panama blue auratus or just from lack of interest because they were so shy if you didn't set them up well, not hybrids. Do you think you can force people to breed pure frogs if they just like to mix animals and see what comes out? How do you know your frogs aren't hybrids now if you aren't tracking them or getting unknown lineage frogs to breed?
> 
> ...


I am in agreement with you here with regards to tracking genetics. I do believe that those who want this hobby to represent wild-type frogs, own the responsibility to track our frogs. I stand by the idea that hybridizing frogs is not a good thing; however, I also understand that if people cannot be persuaded that what I believe is true and good, then peoples' frogs are theirs to do with what they want and that this issue may very well end up being a division between the hobby that creates two different "morphs" of the hobby that will not be crossed .


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Well said Ed. I don't think hybrid amount to much in our hobby, certain not to the extent they are discussed on this board. All the items you bring up are much more important than hybrids. 

I'd like to start with inbreeding and outbreeding. In particular a discussion of what frogs are alright to breed together and I'll even start. I believe its okay to breed together any D. azureus, any P. vittatus, or any P. lugubris. Comments? There are likely more but at the moment they are not coming to mind. 

I'd also love to see more of a discussion on legislation. I've seen very little in this regard. 

Best,

Chuck



Ed said:


> So can anyone explain how hybridization became the main threat to the continuation of this hobby as opposed to say any of the following (not in order of risk)?
> 
> 1) inbreeding
> 2) popularity cycles
> ...


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Chuck you would include some of the leucs such as chocolate with normals.

Legislation: I have battled for keeping dart frogs in the State of Illinois the last few years. This last year new state legislation did pass that is a one of a kind law in the USA putting all Herps in its own act and I know there is a push for others states to adopt a similar act. Dart frogs are legal in IL still but life treating species that are WC are now illegal Jan 1, 2015. 

Federal: Since the induction and later defeat of HR 669 other legislation similar in content has been proposed. The other route has been Rule Changes posted in the Federal Register. One is open concerning the trade of imported salamandra from Asia and the chytrid fungus Bs. A similar comments was done concerning the chytrid fungus Bd and creating a Bd free certification. If a rule changes occurs the path will be an Injurious Wlidlife Listing, using the Lacy Act. This will stop the interstate trade. 

Another concern is Rana virus since it is currently incurable and can effect chelonia species. Between the 3 infectious diseases USFW is monitoring, we need to be responsible in handling waste, testing and treatments, and prepared to defend the hobby.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

It is closer to how it is done in nature. There is no one dusting their food in nature. You don't have to monitor the nutrients. Dusting supplements other than repashy have been known to contain hardly any, and sometimes none, of what's on the label. You are thinking that these frogs need more than they do. Europeans bred darts for years before us without supplements and some still do. If you don't breed them unnaturally they don't need the supplements.

Look you've all already made up your minds. Poor me, the hybridizers are doing something to me. You have NO argument. Either track lineage or don't or whine. I have already shown hybridizing and outcrossing is more natural than most of the other things the hobby "accepts". Other hobbies have both and they do fine. What you "accept" is not "needed and natural". Just live up to the fact that you don't want it because you just don't want to have to do any work to buy frogs and breed them together, you just want them to magically be pure. You have a way out you are just lazy and would rather demonize people than actually do anything about it. (aimed at everyone as I'm out, this isn't getting anywhere but people arguing from emotion and playing victim)



SDK said:


> Feeding European crickets gutloaded with dog food and vegetables that are not native to the same areas as the frogs is not more "natural" than using supplements. It is just a different way to arrive at the same destination.
> 
> Also, I would argue that your system is "less" ethical. Supplements at least have a track record of success, and are tailored to the frogs needs through traceable science. What methodology do you use to monitor exactly what nutrients, and in what ratios you are providing your frogs? How are you tracking your food rotation to ensure that is stays consistent over the months and years these frogs can live?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I didn't say their needs would change just their ability to handle excess would choose for offspring that can do better with higher levels of what you are giving them. There is a difference, no?


Ed said:


> Just as a point of correction, this is not supported by the animal nutritional literature. There can be increased demands due to stressors such as reproduction or growth but the general needs don't change. This is so highly conserved across taxa that as noted by Exotic Animal Nutritionist DVM, S. Donoghue that the frogs requirements fit within that of domestic animals (and yes she did use a dendrobatid to develop the data (D. auratus)) or that pigs are used a stand in for people for nutritional studies.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## SDK (Aug 11, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> It is closer to how it is done in nature. There is no one dusting their food in nature. You don't have to monitor the nutrients. Dusting supplements other than repashy have been known to contain hardly any, and sometimes none, of what's on the label.


No it's not, and there is no one feeding them dog food and carrots in nature either. Dusting with quality supplements is giving frogs a nutritional profile closer to what they get in nature. You neglected to answer either of my questions regarding your methodology in determining how well your food choices fit the nutritional needs of your captive amphibians.

I am not trying to beat you up on this, but I think that both your methods and the way you are portraying them are worth debunking for the sake of others who may be new and reading this.

What you are trying to do is not some new, natural method. It's actually the way those of us who kept herps in the 70's and 80's were forced to struggle along. I well remember the days before there were reliable supplements out there. It was a time in the hobby when species that now seem easy to keep and breed were hard or next to impossible to maintain beyond a few months.

Thanks, but I will stick with quality supplements that are regularly replaced and kept fresh. The body of work on supplements vs. crickets, dog food and leftovers from my veggie bin are fairly well established at this point...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> I didn't say their needs would change just their ability to handle excess would choose for offspring that can do better with higher levels of what you are giving them. There is a difference, no?


Actually the two are directly related so if your increasing the tolerance your increasing the need for the material to deal with the increased tolerance to the material. 

When you increase the tolerance, the organism is showing reduced response to the substance whether it is due to a change in how the receptors behave in response to the substance or ability to excrete the substance, when dealing with required nutrients, there is a need to over come this barrier otherwise the organism dies from a nutritional disease. As a consequence it is hugely maladaptive for any organism to develop tolerances for required nutrients. This is why it isn't supported by the nutritional literature on any animals as it would be lethal to the offspring. 

So the likelyhood of it happening approaches zero, it is theoretically possible given an infinite universe but then then it is also theoretically possible for all of the oxygen in my room to suddenly clump into one of the far corners causing me to suffocate or for me to spontaneously combust.. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Point of clarification.... dry dog food fed to crickets is going to deliver vitamin A, D and E. There are levels set by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) that all dry dog foods have to meet..... 

Gut loading a cricket with a source of A, D and E (as well as other ingredients not found in a wild cricket's diet) is just as artificial as dusting with a supplement so to make the claim that it is more natural is specious and without merit of any sort. 

Finally, gut loading the crickets with dark greens is going to primarily supply a source of beta carotene to the frogs which is a problem with respect to vitamin A utilization. It also supplies lutein but whether this can be converted to a usable retinoid is unknown at this time. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> "I wanted a colorful tank." I can recall an ad on Kingsnake in 2012 of a hybrid being offered. We are certainly more connected, dart frogs are more available, and we have an on going thread.


The hybrid discussion has been present in the hobby for as long as I can remember.. It is only relatively recently that it has become public enemy number one while much more serious issues that would require real effort on the part of the hobby get ignored... like the risk that legislation could shut down the interstate trade in amphibians. 

And I remember seeing a vendor at the Hamburg show for several seasons selling some tinctorious intergrade as being prettier than azuerus. This was more than ten years ago..... 



More than 20 years ago, Chuck tried to get people to document their frogs and the hobby showed no interest back then.... See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...hy-does-everyone-hate-hybrids.html#post732439 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Agreed that the hybrid issue/scare is taking center stage and we have other real problems, but perhaps it will in part lead to the better management we need?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

As seen by you. In nature insects eat nutrients, no one dusts them. If you can't see that......
Take out the dogfood and only use veggies and meat then. You know, natural.

Beta carotene never seemed to be a problem here no matter what the papers say. 



Ed said:


> Point of clarification.... dry dog food fed to crickets is going to deliver vitamin A, D and E. There are levels set by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) that all dry dog foods have to meet.....
> 
> Gut loading a cricket with a source of A, D and E (as well as other ingredients not found in a wild cricket's diet) is just as artificial as dusting with a supplement so to make the claim that it is more natural is specious and without merit of any sort.
> 
> ...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

So why can some people handle more D3 without showing overdose while some have fine levels without supplements? Red heads I think. 
If you say so but it doesn't make sense. There are variances within individuals as to tolerance and variance between species. However slight I'd think that the difference would select for different animals to thrive moreso, thereby changing the evolutionary path to deal with such changes. Thereby showing that more vitamins thru dusting could be selecting for different individuals since you can't get that much nutrient IN to a bug.

But what do I know....

To get this right though, you're saying the possibility of this shift in breeding paths is the same as all the oxygen in your room coming together and catching on fire? Funny but I doubt it.

I'll apologize upfront, I don't have a background in nutrition and I learn visually. Trying to figure out what youre saying without pictures to show how it happens is a bit confusing for me.


Ed said:


> Actually the two are directly related so if your increasing the tolerance your increasing the need for the material to deal with the increased tolerance to the material.
> 
> When you increase the tolerance, the organism is showing reduced response to the substance whether it is due to a change in how the receptors behave in response to the substance or ability to excrete the substance, when dealing with required nutrients, there is a need to over come this barrier otherwise the organism dies from a nutritional disease. As a consequence it is hugely maladaptive for any organism to develop tolerances for required nutrients. This is why it isn't supported by the nutritional literature on any animals as it would be lethal to the offspring.
> 
> ...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I remember Rod Mitchell having a fit at the Chicago show over someone selling hybrids. I think they had to remove him from the show over the outburst. That was back in 98 I think?



Ed said:


> The hybrid discussion has been present in the hobby for as long as I can remember.. It is only relatively recently that it has become public enemy number one while much more serious issues that would require real effort on the part of the hobby get ignored... like the risk that legislation could shut down the interstate trade in amphibians.
> 
> And I remember seeing a vendor at the Hamburg show for several seasons selling some tinctorious intergrade as being prettier than azuerus. This was more than ten years ago.....
> 
> ...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Another question is why snakes seemed to do ok with nekton reps hi vit a content while darts died from too much vit a. I heard it was that there is a lot of vit a in mammal livers and snakes could handle it while insect eaters could not.

More pointed to the issue, overdusting could lead to choosing animals that have absorbtive issues as to not succumb to diseases associated with too many vitamins or minerals. Does that make more sense?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Personally, I think one of the biggest threats to the hobby is the extremely high turnover rate. As a hobby, how are we supposed to get our sh!t together when it's like a revolving door? I also see, the same thing over and over. Get into the hobby, get some frogs, get more frogs, pump out as many froglets as you can, buy more frogs, rinse and repeat and burnout...There is no money in breeding frogs! Sure, you can help pay for your collection, hydro, frog food, whatever. But, forget about making any serious money!

Yes,there are some long term keepers and some very long term keepers. But, after a while most stop posting on the forums. I'm guilty of it too and haven't been posting much over the past year or so. That's, if you want to call 6 years in the hobby a long time? That, in itself, is absurd! Like Chuck, the more I learn the less I know, it seems. In all honesty, it's the same old thing and the same old topics. I rarely see anything new. It's like this hobby has a recipe for success and _most_ try and follow that recipe. 

Trying things "outside the box" (which I do all the time) gets a negative response more often than not. So, I mostly keep to myself now with my basement full of Tincs in groups I've tried post about my success with group Tincs only to have it fall on deaf ears. I have a friend who keeps Pums in groups. He won't post about it though for fear of a backlash and I don't blame him. I can't help but wonder how many others have "outside the box" stories to share. I would love to hear them! 

Hybrids have been in the hobby a long time and will probably grow in numbers. Some kind of tracking system would definitely be beneficial to our frogs and hobby. But, if the longer term keepers are no longer posting on the forums, which I believe to be the case, how would this be established?

I mean no disrespect to anyone and that's not my intent. Just my personal observations is all.


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## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> As seen by you. In nature insects eat nutrients, no one dusts them. If you can't see that......
> Take out the dogfood and only use veggies and meat then. You know, natural.


That's true, but we can't fully replicate their wild diet in captivity. Captive animals are not fed the same insects as wild animals, therefore are not getting the same nutrients. So we supplement them in order to compensate for that. Using non-native insects that eat non-native plants is just as natural as using supplements.


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## thumbnail (Sep 18, 2005)

The hybrid threat is not a new one, but with the volume that could potentially be filtered into the hobby in the next year or so by he who shall not be named is my biggest fear. I cringe at the idea of a teenager buying said hybrid frog and not really thinking a second thought on it. Now he takes a shine to said frog and wants to breed. The original purchase may have not even labeled the cross, but just straight up called it lets say auratus or tinc. So he goes out to another place and purchases what he believes is the same type of frog. He breeds them and ends up with frogs looking very close to a wildtype dart, but the underlying genetics have another frog mixed in. He gets tired after a few years. Maybe he is going to college or moving on in life. All the frogs get sold to another person and that person does not really ask the questions and gets a good deal on the group or groups, and has access to dendroboard or other online outlets. He sells offspring from these frogs that in his mind are pure as the driven snow, but by that point the damage is done. It would not take much from the origin hybrid frog to cause great confusion. I am all for getting folks fired up about dart frogs, but without giving an emphasis on even just basic lineage information(where frog was purchased from or bloodline) it leaves the field wide open to the above scenario. Then there is also the folks that will just straight out cross hybrids and lie about what they are just to get sales. Now another issue I have been pondering is instead of hybrid frogs how does everyone feel about different lines of frogs being bred together to broaden the gene pool. Lets say for example a male imported sirensis bred to a Understory line sirensis of the same type. Another example would be a EU vanzolinii and a UE vanzolinii bred together. All information would obviously be given on the lineages. The reason why I ask is because I have a large group of EU vanzolinii now and I would like to start a UE group and separate the best looking of each group to start a third group. They would be labeled as UExEU(understory, european cross). Would that be an issue for folks on here? Sorry for the long post.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

I think that this has been a great conversation to have. Different people have different opinions as to what may be the greatest current threat to the hobby. I recognize other major threats to the hobby, but, I truly feel this situation is paramount for several reasons. First being that this issue multiples as people buying their frogs breed them. Second is that, I feel, it hurts the growth of the hobby. People who don't know better that buy hybrids and later discover that hybrids are taboo are kind of stuck. Hopefully they care for the frogs indiscriminately, but are they likely to seek forums to ask questions? Are they likely to add more frogs to their collection if they feel they are were mislead originally? Are they likely to join local frog meets? 

The places selling hybrids are places that many people buying their first frogs are going are going to find. Once bought and their interest sparks, there will likely be more frogs acquired. If they don't find forums, will they know they have hybrids? Will the know there are other options? 

Action is needed and I see that action not as frog police, but as an educational messages. A simple, positive, friendly and uniformed message. For example, a banner ad on Kingsnake with 1.8 million impressions a day - wouldn't that help to inform shoppers before they make a purchase? The banner could point to a Dendroboard thread or a simple webpage with a concise message about why our beloved frogs need not to be hybridized. 

Thoughts?


Brad


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

thumbnail said:


> Now another issue I have been pondering is instead of hybrid frogs how does everyone feel about different lines of frogs being bred together to broaden the gene pool. Lets say for example a male imported sirensis bred to a Understory line sirensis of the same type. Another example would be a EU vanzolinii and a UE vanzolinii bred together. All information would obviously be given on the lineages. The reason why I ask is because I have a large group of EU vanzolinii now and I would like to start a UE group and separate the best looking of each group to start a third group. They would be labeled as UExEU(understory, european cross). Would that be an issue for folks on here? Sorry for the long post.


Don't take this the wrong way especially since everyone knows I'm a rambling wind bag/writer of insanely long posts, but that would have been much easier to get through if broken into paragraphs. 

Anyways...
We do cross lines in some cases. We want diverisity, it's just that in some cases it comes with some compromises to get it, that the consensus says arent worth it... at least for now. If it is known to be the same species/morph from the same place it is usually fine. Usually when two seemingly identical frogs are kept separate it is because we either know they came from different places or aren't the same despite superficially looking the same, or there is significant uncertainty. In which case we error on the side of caution, and keep them separate.

Most Understory frogs, especially ones in the hobby because of their efforts have excellent credentials/origin info. I think because of that Understory is often considered such an impeccable source, that the consensus is often not to mix.

EU vanzolinii vs UE vanzolinii: 

Others can correct me if I'm wrong or leave something out, but I believe the issue here seems to be that the European frogs were probably smuggled into the EU. Even if legal there now, and the USA allows them to be brought here, many people consider the frog's origins "grey" enough that they'd rather they weren't mixed with frogs from Understory. 

So the current EU V's may be legal, but the origins/history grey... Understory V's we know were sourced legally, and there is the concern by some that mixing now them would in effect legitimize the illegal/shady activities that got those EU frogs into captivity, and eventually in to the USA.

So mostly for those reasons and maybe because we don't known if the EU ones are from the exact same population, most want them kept separate. Because of exceptions like this and general confusion it is best to research that frog specifically to find out what is accepted, and if still not sure just ask in the forums... part of why we are here


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ed said:


> Adding hybrid frogs to the market isn't going to reduce demand for rare species or new imports. We can look at one of the most morph driven market (ball pythons) and check the imports of ranched babies to see that demand has not decreased. Between 2000 and 2013 more than 1,800,000 ball pythons have been imported into the United States without any signs of a decline in the importations over that period. If the market for rare frogs was under threat by hybrids then hybrids would potentially command better prices so it would be economically viable for those breeders to create hybrids and use their status to get them accepted.
> The scenario you posit doesn't stand up to the economics of the situation.
> 
> I can think of one person that wanted to control prices but that person lacked the support to even try to regulate the prices (and it was pointed out to them that it was illegal by more than one person) but none of them have participated in these threads. The major breeders I know with the rarer frogs aren't worried about hybrids.....
> ...


Is it so far fetched? You do realize a certain vivarium builder with an absolute trash reputation was able to keep advertisements up on multiple forums simply by offering people vivariums in exchange for ads far past the point most the community knew he was not a reputable person to deal with. And despite the fact that the damage caused by such a person would have a negative effect on many members of the community and new people entering the community. And of course you have not noticed any of the oddly selective nature by which administrators decide to allow or not allow posts to proceed before being locked or deleted......

On the morph stance, how much are imported ball pythons worth? Not the thousands high end morphs are worth and certainly not in the numbers you are quoting. Second you are completely discounting the value of work. Currently people with connections need only get access to new / rare morphs and get them breeding and sell them. For as long as the morph is worth money they can keep turning out pretty good profits look how long large obligates have been holding value. The parents never become worthless till the market saturates. With line breeding the goal is always a moving target, the parents genetics can lose tons of value as soon as mature offspring can breed on top of that the costs can go way up as collections need to be bigger to wait for the random chance of something unique popping up in offspring. Quite the opposite in dart frogs the parents continue to be revered as the best genetics as they are closer to WC keeping their value high for quite a while. The most important part of this statement is stability, you know if you get a good rare frog morph with high certainty you are going to make your money back and people wish to protect that stability, with the hybrid line breeding war the risk increases quite a bit. 

But hey be my guest if you have a better answer to your own question then answer it. 

Also just because something doesn't work out as people intended in real life does not mean the claimed motivation are not correct. People can be motivated to do something based on a completely false assumption happens all the time in fact it seems that mostly what you do on the forum is try to point that out to people constantly. Maybe you are right maybe hybrids will skyrocket the demand for new WC morphs, but if that was the case then I am sure more than a few importers or major breeders would actually be pushing for it, no instead it seems the opposite it seems people who do not have access to this are the ones pushing for it. 

So I stick to my point I believe the major reason that this issue above most others commands so much attention is the assumption, be it true or false that people with the connections and good frogs will keep their value higher longer than if a line breeding designer frog arms race gains traction.


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## Ignimbrite (Jun 28, 2014)

Dendrobati said:


> Like most hobbyist, my passion for dart frogs runs deep. Many years after I meet my first Dendrobatidae, I’m still completely captivated with their highly evolved colorations, their behaviors, their calls, and the most of all the nuances between morphs and localities which includes husbandry, visual and behavioral differences. I hold dart frogs in the highest regard as prefect little gems of nature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let's get back to the reason for this post. If people want to continue jabbing at each others views on vitamin supplementation and who's smarter please start a new thread to do so. 

Just remember that "everyone is entitled to their own wrong opinion." 

I am very new to this hobby. I got 5 Leucs this year in October. As a new hobby member I naturally wanted to make a mixed species tank. I also couldn't see the problem with hybrids. I even (recently) made some comments about not seeing a problem with hybrids. Rather than being "bullied" as people on this thread have stated happens to anyone who suggests these things it was carefully explained to me in a heartfelt manner why it is frowned upon to create hybrids. 

This is what I now feel. It is true that hybridization does occur in the wild. However it is important to keep different morphs pure (and certainly species!) because we cannot undo mixing. I previously made the argument (in my pro hybridization days) that hybridization would increase the genetic depth of the frogs we keep. I now think it will do the exact opposite. Every time a hybrid is created the genetics of that frog are REMOVED from the genetic pool of the morphs it came from. If people agree that we already don't have enough genetic diversity in our captive frog populations then they cannot endorse in good conscience hybridization. Every time a hybrid is produced it removes its genetics from BOTH its parent morphs. I think we all agree that the genetics in our hobby are already limited enough without us deliberately removing potential genetic diversity. 

It is also our responsibility as a hobby to preserve wild morphs. Several of the species and morphs in the wild are in serious danger of becoming extinct. It is our responsibility to preserve these morphs and species so that they are not lost to the world forever. Once genetic crossing is done, it cannot be undone. There are already dart frogs in just about every imaginable color color and pattern. Already there are frogs that have disappeared from the hobby because of a lack of interest in them. We run the risk of loosing even more frogs if people turn to hybrids. We should drive to maintain the species we have without creating new ones that will weaken our current populations. 

These are my "own wrong opinions" and the reasons why I, as a noob in this hobby, have become convinced (remember that these were not my initial opinions upon entering this hobby) that we should avoid hybrids as much as possible in this hobby. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ignimbrite (Jun 28, 2014)

Also I noticed that the original post asked for action, not opinions. So far I have only seen one suggestion for action. That was to post an add on some popular websites where people might buy these hybrid frogs that encourage them to visit dendroboard where they can learn about the importance of proper dart frog care. I think this is a great suggestion. I believe that if people read and think about the issues that we have discussed they will come to see, as I have, that hybridization is not the direction that we want to go as a hobby. 

I would like to put forth another suggestion. Could we as a community against hybridization have a stamp of approval for certain vendors that share our views? Something like D.A.V. (Dendoboard Aproved Vendor) Certified that they could advertise? Someone more creative than I could come up with a better name. Or perhaps we could encourage reputable online vendors to proclaim their stance more boldly on their homepage? This way when new people start looking online at vendors they will immediately see that having non hybrids is a big deal. People like distinction in the things they own. For instance the more rare a frog the more they want it. In dogs the more pure the bloodline the more sight after the dog. Right now one of the distinctions available is the " new " hybrid morph. However if people see the no hybrid distinction then not owning a hybrid becomes cool. What else can we do as a hobby to encourage people to stay away from hybrids? We could all go to vendors who sell hybrids flag the. On wheel of trust in google chrome (or whatever is equivalent is on other browsers). Most people are not going to check vendor feedback here when looking to first get into the hobby. They will check wheel of trust or other similar apps however. 

Any other ideas of things we can do as a hobby to discourage the practice of hybridization? Bear in mind we will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. How can we be positive and proactive? Nobody like to be told they are wrong. In fact it will put people's backs up and they will fight against you no matter what evidence you show them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

Ignimbrite said:


> On wheel of trust in google chrome (or whatever is equivalent is on other browsers). Most people are not going to check vendor feedback here when looking to first get into the hobby. They will check wheel of trust or other similar apps however.


What's this wheel of trust thing you speak of? It sounds like it would be free, so if there's a chance it'll help, I'm all for it!


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## Ignimbrite (Jun 28, 2014)

Wheel of trust is an app for Google chrome that allows users to rate websites. You can rate it based on safety for children... Reliability of information etc. it is a free app and very useful, particularly when looking at buying things from websites that are not Amazon or another big online vendor. When you google anything it tells you how "trustworthy" each website is based on user reviews. There is a little green (good) yellow (be careful) or red (bad) circle next to the search result. Other web browsers have similar apps. I think avast antivirus has the same type of program. Other antivirus' may have them as well. Google wheel of trust and you can read about it for yourself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ignimbrite (Jun 28, 2014)

Actually Google "wheel of trust chrome." Googling "wheel of trust" gives weird results. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Sorry, but this needs to be briefly addressed here. 



Pubfiction said:


> Is it so far fetched? You do realize a certain vivarium builder with an absolute trash reputation was able to keep advertisements up on multiple forums simply by offering people vivariums in exchange for ads far past the point most the community knew he was not a reputable person to deal with. And despite the fact that the damage caused by such a person would have a negative effect on many members of the community and new people entering the community.


YES. It 100% is far fetched. Where did you get that information? 

I've been a member here since 2007. I have seen my fair share of "controversies" in that time and you wanna know the first thing I did when I became a moderator (~Thanksgiving 2013)? I went back through old threads to see all the "stuff that the mods/admins were hiding" that everyone kept talking about. So... Protean, Taron (twice), etc etc.

You want to know what I found? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of any consequence. There is no great conspiracy. Nobody is trying to protect anybody and nobody is trying to use their position to gain anything. Nobody was given any free vivariums in exchange for ads and the person who I'm assuming you are accusing of this was probably the one that was most critical of the bad vendor during that time period.



Pubfiction said:


> And of course you have not noticed any of the oddly selective nature by which administrators decide to allow or not allow posts to proceed before being locked or deleted......


We don't delete/close threads to protect anyone or for our own benefit. That is a ridiculous assumption. I'll acknowledge that we don't get everything right. We're human. The problem is that we have to walk the fine line between allowing people to say what they want and keeping this a friendly place for the exchange of information. That's what this forum is supposed to be, not this bitter environment that a few members seem to constantly try to create. 


> This site was created to promote a growing and very rewarding hobby, and consolidate as much useful information in one location as possible. With any hobby there are tricks of the trade and there is always room for improvement. This is where the community comes into play and how the invaluable discussions held on this site can benefit us all. We welcome everyone from a beginner, to the most advanced frogger with years of experience.
> 
> This site will continue to be a volunteer based initiative, dedicated to building a friendly community and academic resource. If you have any recommendations or concerns, please feel free to contact me


I volunteer my time here because the community is important to me. I love keeping my frogs. I love all the information this forum has provided me over the years that have made me a better keeper. I love the friends I have made from this hobby. I met one of my best friends through here. That is why I do this. I'm sick of this environment that has been created where it is the popular thing to trash the admin/mod team. We aren't here with some personal agenda. If you have a problem with something, bring it up to us. Ask me. I'm all ears. I've spent hours on the phone/emailing/texting people when they've had problems with the way things are run around here. *Just ask us privately... because you know what really is a threat to the hobby? People posting things without all the facts and instilling unnecessary mistrust amongst the community. *

If ANYONE has any concerns about the moderator/admin team going forward... send me a message. Seriously. Cut it out with these public passive aggressive and uninformed insinuations. They don't benefit anyone.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I think that this goes along with preserving the genetic diversity we have in our current captive bloodlines. 

Also, free sharing of information would be great. To an above membered who mentioned tinc groups I feel you should really share your information-I started a few threads inquiring for input but consensus on factors of success is still shaky. Also, pumilio groups sounds incredible-information on locale, sex ratios, breeding success, and the like would be most interesting. Dogma that gets entrenched in the hobby makes it that much harder for new and improved husbandry to happen.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> Trying things "outside the box" (which I do all the time) gets a negative response more often than not. So, I mostly keep to myself now with my basement full of Tincs in groups I've tried post about my success with group Tincs only to have it fall on deaf ears. I have a friend who keeps Pums in groups. He won't post about it though for fear of a backlash and I don't blame him. I can't help but wonder how many others have "outside the box" stories to share. I would love to hear them!


As I've noted before in the past, I've kept tinctorius in groups (and yes there were multiple females) with good longevity (@ 15 years of age for some of the frogs), and no issues of then "killing" each other as often claimed is the risk. 
I've got one 20 gallon vertical that has at least 4 adult pumilio in it, without any real egg eating or other issues often reported. If one looks in the pumilio section of Lotters et al, there is a picture of a group of pumilio on a pile of seed pods.... Look at the density there..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> I think that this goes along with preserving the genetic diversity we have in our current captive bloodlines.
> 
> Also, free sharing of information would be great. To an above membered who mentioned tinc groups I feel you should really share your information-I started a few threads inquiring for input but consensus on factors of success is still shaky. Also, pumilio groups sounds incredible-information on locale, sex ratios, breeding success, and the like would be most interesting. Dogma that gets entrenched in the hobby makes it that much harder for new and improved husbandry to happen.


One of the biggest problems with this hobby at this time is that the general recipes for success have been established and as a consequence there is little interest in diverting from these recipes because it provides success for those who equate skill with breeding. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> One of the biggest problems with this hobby at this time is that the general recipes for success have been established and as a consequence there is little interest in diverting from these recipes because it provides success for those who equate skill with breeding.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Between a PM from frogfreak with more detail on that awhile back, your observations, and others of people I respect, (and random others)... I'm becoming much more open to that practice, especially for experienced people.

Speaking for myself, I'm still a bit hesitant to support it for less experienced keepers, just because in my mind there is still enough anecdotal observation to suggest "pairs" of Tincs leaves a bit more margin for error, for them... But I think at the very least, I'll cringe less in the future. 

Weird, and slow to change...
Dave


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> As I've noted before in the past, I've kept tinctorius in groups (and yes there were multiple females) with good longevity (@ 15 years of age for some of the frogs), and no issues of then "killing" each other as often claimed is the risk.
> I've got one 20 gallon vertical that has at least 4 adult pumilio in it, without any real egg eating or other issues often reported. If one looks in the pumilio section of Lotters et al, there is a picture of a group of pumilio on a pile of seed pods.... Look at the density there.....
> 
> Some comments
> ...



I think the big problem with a lot of advice finding a way to appropriately catering to the audience that is going to be receiving the information.

Have I successfully kept female heavy tinctorius groups? Yes... I had a 1.3 group that I eventually split up, but had no issues when they were together.

Have I also kept just 2 females together that resulted in bullying and one frog needing to be separated? Yup.

Would I recommend to a beginner that tinctorius are good group frogs? Absolutely not... but someone that has kept tincs and is familiar with their normal behavior? Sure.

I also have a group of 4 pumilio in a 24x18x24 that I am getting a lot egg eating from. So, while I'm sure some people have groups that don't show this behavior... that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

The big problem is that nobody likes being told "you don't have enough experience". So we end up getting these watered down recommendations that are very general recipes for success. Personally, I feel more comfortable giving blanket advice that isn't going to result in a frog's death than saying "yes, it can be done but you have to watch for signs of aggression" when that person may have no idea what cues to look for. Otherwise we are going to end up with more people on here with posts like "hey my one frog is getting skinny and hiding a lot more, whats wrong?"


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## edaxflamma (Jan 18, 2014)

Ignimbrite said:


> Also I noticed that the original post asked for action, not opinions. So far I have only seen one suggestion for action.





Ignimbrite said:


> Any other ideas of things we can do as a hobby to discourage the practice of hybridization? Bear in mind we will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. How can we be positive and proactive? Nobody like to be told they are wrong. In fact it will put people's backs up and they will fight against you no matter what evidence you show them.



Is there any way we could standardize the data collection method for the more reputable breeders on the board? For example, I would imagine that there is some kind of documentation associated with an F0 or F1 frog, right? 

With that information, could the established breeders then verify frog sales for individual buyers to vouch for a buyer's purchase? This way we could begin to track frog parents back however many generations necessary. We as buyers could also then better evaluate what frogs to purchase to avoid inbreeding etc. This becomes a bit more difficult with people keeping breeding groups but it could still be useful information. It might make keeping pairs a bit more worth while and kill a few birds with one stone. 

Keeping groups would make the genetics harder to track, making the newcomer breeder wannabees more likely to stick to pairs better, better data tracking would allow us to make more informed buying and breeding decisions when it comes to our frogs with regards to their genetics. and (not that I am for it at this time) but all the data would set the stage for a better hybrid breeding program in the future should it become possible and accepted in the community.

Is this too monumental of a task? I know some collections are huge and span several years, buyers, and hobbyists but I don't think it would be impossible. If hobbyists can be this passionate in their stance against hybrid frogs, they could just as well put some of that passion into accurate documentation of their collection. For most of the large breeders I would imagine that the majority of that info is there. We would just have to establish what data needs to be included with a frog purchase. Tracking the info and deciding if an F5 is less desirable than an F4 from that same line would be left to the buyer.

Also understand that this is coming from a guy who hasn't purchased any frogs yet. As an exotic plant collector though, I do keep similar data.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Between a PM from frogfreak with more detail on that awhile back, your observations, and others of people I respect, (and random others)... I'm becoming much more open to that practice, especially for experienced people.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I'm still a bit hesitant to support it for less experienced keepers, just because in my mind there is still enough anecdotal observation to suggest "pairs" of Tincs leaves a bit more margin for error, for them... But I think at the very least, I'll cringe less in the future.
> 
> ...


Even tadpole keeping is changing. I am experimenting with group raising and mixed species raising. Designing my own filtration, ect. Troy I know does group with success. And my thought is if I loss a tad here or there to cannibalism, is it more survival of the fittest? Was that tad a weak tad that I am send off as a weaker froglet?


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## jimmy rustles (Mar 10, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> Personally, I think one of the biggest threats to the hobby is the extremely high turnover rate. As a hobby, how are we supposed to get our sh!t together when it's like a revolving door? I also see, the same thing over and over. Get into the hobby, get some frogs, get more frogs, pump out as many froglets as you can, buy more frogs, rinse and repeat and burnout...There is no money in breeding frogs! Sure, you can help pay for your collection, hydro, frog food, whatever. But, forget about making any serious money!
> 
> Yes,there are some long term keepers and some very long term keepers. But, after a while most stop posting on the forums. I'm guilty of it too and haven't been posting much over the past year or so. That's, if you want to call 6 years in the hobby a long time? That, in itself, is absurd! Like Chuck, the more I learn the less I know, it seems. In all honesty, it's the same old thing and the same old topics. I rarely see anything new. It's like this hobby has a recipe for success and _most_ try and follow that recipe.
> 
> ...


I'd be more than happy if there was such an outside the box thread, and if you were to tell a bit more about unconventional stuff you tried. 
Recently I've heard about communal tadpole raising of D. tinctorius, which resulted in subjectively bigger frogs, that left the water a little earlier.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> Even tadpole keeping is changing. I am experimenting with group raising and mixed species raising. Designing my own filtration, ect. Troy I know does group with success. And my thought is if I loss a tad here or there to cannibalism, is it more survival of the fittest? Was that tad a weak tad that I am send off as a weaker froglet?



Things I've also been pondering. I need some mates for current frogs, and more frogs, and more breeding experience period, before I can/should explore that much.

But I was just wondering the other day how fast any inhibitor compounds might degrade, and what kinda dilution/water volumn and degree of filtration might render them pretty much a mute point.

Was going to do some digging and PM Ed  ...however until I was ready seemed like there was no rush, but feel free to PM me with any experiences/info for my future reference 

But...
I guess we need to stress that just because it is being discussed, it isn't necessarily a green light for everyone. Kinda like the mixed species vivs where if you go big, do it thoughtfully, have the build skillz, and some street cred you can do it without being lynched, (even if not everyone is thrilled about it), but if not... you better be prepared for the backlash. 

The simple fact is knowledge, experience and respect matter. You may be lord of the fruit flies, but if no one knows it and you can't/won't answer some pointed questions and address concerns without getting defensive, you shouldn't get a free pass on playing mad scientist... *and you shouldn't expect to.*


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tom,

The problem is that instead the information that makes it a "recipe" for success becomes entrenched in dogma that can't be challenged because not only is it what works but since it has the lowest "perceived risk" the only way it should be done. 



carola1155 said:


> I think the big problem with a lot of advice finding a way to appropriately catering to the audience that is going to be receiving the information.


And the result is that the newer people regurgitate the "recipe" as advice to other new people setting it in concrete. 



carola1155 said:


> Would I recommend to a beginner that tinctorius are good group frogs? Absolutely not... but someone that has kept tincs and is familiar with their normal behavior? Sure.


Define beginner. The definition of beginner isn't the same today as it was even ten years ago due to the presence of "recipes" for breeding. The bar for what is considered successful has been significantly lowered as people can raise and successfully breed many of these frogs without having the least understanding of the behaviors or physiology of the animals. Instead all they have to do is follow a script. If you are consistently telling this group of people that they should't (which others translate to can't) keep them in groups then they will never have any reason to understand the behaviors of the frogs. 

People often forget that how the enclosures are setup are a direct contributing factor for whether or not an enclosure is suitable for the frogs.

Look at how people view the size of the enclosure recommendations for frogs have changed over the years. How many people can explain why using volume as a determining factor for stocking density has problems? 



carola1155 said:


> I also have a group of 4 pumilio in a 24x18x24 that I am getting a lot egg eating from. So, while I'm sure some people have groups that don't show this behavior... that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


No but it does mean that if it is occurring to a significant level, there is some environmental factor that should be examined. Pumilio occur at higher densities in the wild than we are able to routinely meet in captivity. What are some of the things that prevent it from being successful? How many people are willing to play around with cage setup to make it work when people come down against it and all of the status is in producing froglets on a regular basis? 



carola1155 said:


> The big problem is that nobody likes being told "you don't have enough experience". So we end up getting these watered down recommendations that are very general recipes for success. Personally, I feel more comfortable giving blanket advice that isn't going to result in a frog's death than saying "yes, it can be done but you have to watch for signs of aggression" when that person may have no idea what cues to look for. Otherwise we are going to end up with more people on here with posts like "hey my one frog is getting skinny and hiding a lot more, whats wrong?"


And virtually no one is ever going to progress past that stage since no one wants to remind people that other people have successes that buck the trend and those who have success are going to get tired of arguing their side and stop discussing it. Often people who don't spend time on the forums anymore comment on how they get tired of the same questions over and over again. Lord knows I do.... 

Your making the case for why people that push the envelope and have success shouldn't discuss their results as someone else could try it and fail thus in a worse case scenario lose a frog or frogs. Instead your argument supports not giving out that information as opposed to maybe pushing a person to learn more about the frogs. 

As an example, a recent post on here where the female pumilio died had the OP discussing that the male would routinely call the female to feed the tadpoles even though that isn't what pumilio does behaviorally or biologically. Instead the male is simply calling because his perch is near the tadpoles and the incident is simply a coincidence. No one bothered to correct the OP on the incorrect attribution of the behavior of the male. This is an issues that has been discussed more than once on the forum. 

Where would the hobby be if a link between spindly leg and tadpoles that developed abnormally in the egg wasn't linked in a paper to vitamin A deficiency on top of the data that was coming out of the zoo community in relation to vitamin A deficiency in Wyoming toads...... and we still see dogma about vitamin A risks being passed around. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> Even tadpole keeping is changing. I am experimenting with group raising and mixed species raising. Designing my own filtration, ect. Troy I know does group with success. And my thought is if I loss a tad here or there to cannibalism, is it more survival of the fittest? Was that tad a weak tad that I am send off as a weaker froglet?


I'd be hesitant to attribute it as a weaker animal as these tadpoles are adapted to predate on each other regardless of condition. 

See Strange parental decisions: fathers of the dyeing poison frog deposit their tadpoles in pools occupied by large cannibals - Springer 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

edaxflamma said:


> Is there any way we could standardize the data collection method for the more reputable breeders on the board? For example, I would imagine that there is some kind of documentation associated with an F0 or F1 frog, right?


Potential point of correction, this may be an incorrect usage of the filial numbering system. If this is being used to refer to generations from the wild then outside of the initial pairing it is an incorrect and confusing. See for example, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/89636-filial-generation-numbers.html 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

The difficulty with using enclosure size alone is pretty obvious(Ed you have expounded beautifully on this in the past, no need to recap). I think so much goes into success of groups that it is difficult to compare enclosures to one another. An interesting dogma then becomes entrenched where a certain enclosure size becomes the minimum an animal can be kept in but something only a few inches longer or shorter on each side is more or less suitable. (we know of course that the smaller enclosure could have more space than the larger, again covered in that post)


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

jimmy rustles said:


> I'd be more than happy if there was such an outside the box thread, and if you were to tell a bit more about unconventional stuff you tried.


Hey Jimmy,

The problem is, if you bring "unconventional" stuff forward you risk being labelled as irresponsible or worse. I've seen plenty of that over the years.

So, what would be said about someone who's been keeping a 4.3 group of Patricia in a 24x 24x18 Exo for 1.5 years?


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## jimmy rustles (Mar 10, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> Hey Jimmy,
> 
> The problem is, if you bring "unconventional" stuff forward you risk being labelled as irresponsible or worse. I've seen plenty of that over the years.
> 
> So, what would be said about someone who's been keeping a 4.3 group of Patricia in a 24x 24x18 Exo for 1.5 years?


Hi frogfreak,

I know what you mean, sometimes I find it funny to see when people talk about vivarianism like theres an official rulebook with paragraphs about what to do and whats forbidden. One example that always gets a smirk out of me is when someone says the aim of terraristics is to emulate nature as close as possible. I think much is possible as long as the basic animal needs are met and do not fade into the background. 

Now I know too little about hybrids and the impact of that on the animal market to actually chime and and build an informed decision yet, but I do think theres a difference between someone new getting into the Hobby and mixing everything up, or cramping way too many animals into one tank and someone who actually does have experience with the animal at hand and it's behaviour, needs, signs of aggression or deficiencies. 
So if someone who has enough knowledge about the species and its needs were to tell about his unconventional way of keeping Patricias, I'd find it much better if he were able to tell share his experiences and how he structured the viv, etc, than dissing him into the abyss. 
At least a discussion should be possible.
But to come to your question, in Europe it would prolly be said that the viv is so small that the animals cant build a proper territory and thus show lesser signs of agression, like in many pet shop vivaria. And at the same time, most of the critics would have some form of a similar arrangement at home.


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## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

jimmy rustles said:


> I'd be more than happy if there was such an outside the box thread, and if you were to tell a bit more about unconventional stuff you tried.
> Recently I've heard about communal tadpole raising of D. tinctorius, which resulted in subjectively bigger frogs, that left the water a little earlier.


I raise my leucomelas tads communally, and I have noticed some pretty big froglets as a result. I have successfully raised about 11 tadpoles to froglets using this setup and I haven't lost any yet!


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Anyone else appreciate the irony that the same Zoo's so many people put on blast, have implemented (for quite some time) the same system so many other people describe as what we need in the first place?


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> Anyone else appreciate the irony that the same Zoo's so many people put on blast, have implemented (for quite some time) the same system so many other people describe as what we need in the first place?


Which zoo are you talking about? I know many, many zoos mix dart frogs in their displays, but I have no clue what is going on with this zoo people keep mentioning.

John


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

The mixing is but a symptom we must deal with. The keeping track of is the part that we seem to need, people seem to want but, as has been pointed out before, noone shows interest when such a project becomes available.



FroggyKnight said:


> Which zoo are you talking about? I know many, many zoos mix dart frogs in their displays, but I have no clue what is going on with this zoo people keep mentioning.
> 
> John


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Genetic management...The vast majority of zoos (at least those that are AZA) maintain a nationwide studbook in order to maintain genetic diversity within a species. Zoos and other institutions actually do partake in this "dream" many froggers have of species reintroduction. They work with state and federal agencies to breed and reintroduce species that are endangered in the wild. 

Also, while we're on the subject...many of the zoo and institution folks who are constantly beat up on here for mixing, etc., etc. are honestly the best of the best in terms of "off the job" herp husbandry. Those mythical folks breeding histos, sylvatica, vicentei, silverstonei and on and on for years are the same ones who you all like to beat up for maintaing a mixed display for a largely uninformed general public who just want to see a few colorful frogs.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Spaff said:


> Genetic management...The vast majority of zoos (at least those that are AZA) maintain a nationwide studbook in order to maintain genetic diversity within a species. Zoos and other institutions actually do partake in this "dream" many froggers have of species reintroduction. They work with state and federal agencies to breed and reintroduce species that are endangered in the wild.


I posted this in Chuck's http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/217465-cross-breeding.html thread, and it seems pertinent to the conversation, so I'll post it here as well.

So I thought I'd share an experience with you guys that I had a little while back.

I was at the last NYC Frog Day, and I ventured over to Josh's Frogs table and I saw that there were these HUGE tincs for sale. I commented to them that I've heard that they are supposed to get this big in the wild, but I've never really seen them this big CB (but then again I don't get out much).

Josh's response? It's all about how they breed their frogs. They mentioned that they go through lengths to get frogs from different sources, so that they're never inbreeding their frogs. From what I recall, they mentioned that you'll often see smaller frogs in the hobby because they are really inbred -- they'll be frogs that have been bred from siblings for several generations, and that's why they're not as big as their outcrossed individuals.

Since several have posted about Josh's in this thread, I thought I'd share my experience.

I guess where I'm getting at is that you should try to know/keep track of the pedigree of your frogs. People do this for dogs, are your frogs any less worthy?

And another thing I'm getting at is that anyone who is serious about breeding and staying in the hobby should go through the trouble of acquiring frogs from different sources so that they don't produce any inbred offspring. It's extremely common practice to buy a group of froglets that are siblings, grow them to adulthood, and then breed them together. Why not trade one sex with local froggers when they get to breeding age?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

jimmy rustles said:


> But to come to your question, in Europe it would prolly be said that the viv is so small that *the animals cant build a proper territory and thus show lesser signs of agression*


Bingo! Kinda like Cichlids...


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed said:


> I'd be hesitant to attribute it as a weaker animal as these tadpoles are adapted to predate on each other regardless of condition.
> 
> See Strange parental decisions: fathers of the dyeing poison frog deposit their tadpoles in pools occupied by large cannibals - Springer
> 
> ...


Interesting, but I am keeping all tads around the same size. Once they grow to a larger size they go into the next size bin. I am trying some fish rearing techniques.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> Interesting, but I am keeping all tads around the same size. Once they grow to a larger size they go into the next size bin. I am trying some fish rearing techniques.


Even though they are similar in size doesn't change that they are adapted to predate on one another. 

Some comments 

Ed


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