# People selling older breeders 4+ years old?



## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I was wondering why we don't see people selling older breeding pairs at all? I see a lot of vague ages like 2-3 year old pair or something like that, but very seldom beyond 4 years of age. Not that it's an elderly age for dart frogs as everyone knows, but still.

Not a theory or anything, just a question: Do you guys think there is a lot of fudging of frog ages on this forum to help the seller make a better sale? Obviously a 6 year old pair can breed just fine and even be in the prime of their life for breeding. But I rarely see this. People sell frogs all the time so I can't assume that once frogs reach a certain age, people just decide to keep them into retirement? lol

Granted, I know a vague age range can be the honest result of lost records at one point in the frogs lives as they were maybe sold around until they reached a long term home. 

I also know that many breeders keep detailed records, while others definition of detailed records is less detailed than others. I'm sure many people who buy frogs, ask for their estimated OOW date if it's known. If buying directly from a breeder, this date should be very easy to supply. Now maybe it's a question of the buyer not asking for a date to maintain their records, besides keeping age of frogs in the back of mind for a later date or just to know. 

I just think there's a lot of talk of keeping bloodlines and lineage in order, yet something like age of frogs seems to get lost in the shuffle. 

Dart frogs live a long time and I'm just very surprised that the adult frogs for sale are rarely of a long term captive age. 

I know breeders like Richard from Black Jungle, that has a breeding pair of Auratus that are breeding well to this day and were obtained as WC adults in the early 1990s. 

Lastly, I'm sure much of the time it's a matter of the seller having so many frogs in their collection or just a lot of frogs that pass through, so they don't care or aren't conscious of age of frogs until it becomes time to sell. At the selling point, they can only muster a rough estimate that's hard to verify anyway. 

Not sure if this has been talked about before but I know a lot of record keeping issues are discussed and I'm curious if this is ever addressed. 

I keep what most consider a medium collection of frogs. 12 species or so. So keeping my records up to date is pretty easy and only takes a few minutes out of my week to jot down quick observations or notes. It's handy though as my non-obligate egg feeders that I pull eggs from are easily traced back to my book for future sales. I guess I was thinking about this while noticing no older pairs, but also while I was keeping an egg and tadpole count for my azureus, I can trace back most breeding activity but have absolutely zero information on my pair. I just know they're deep blue and unrelated and who sold them to me. 

Now obviously a huge breeder can't be writing down every time they pull eggs as even with my azureus pair, they've been breeding so much that it's become tedious to do so. But OOW dates aren't terribly difficult to at least know their season.

So, are people lying about ages when they know they have a pair that's pushing 10 years or something? Or were they lied to and just don't have a clue?

Alright in order not to ramble, I'll leave it at that. Any ideas?

D


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

When someone has frogs that have been producing for them for four years - I doubt they feel the need to sell them.

s


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Scott said:


> When someone has frogs that have been producing for them for four years - I doubt they feel the need to sell them.
> 
> s


That's one explanation, but it also wouldn't surprise me if some individuals weren't selling old burn out breeders under false pretences. Happens all the time in the reptile community and I would be shocked if it didn't happen here, even if only on rare occassions.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Most people don't stay in the hobby long enough to end up with old burned out breeders.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Tony said:


> Most people don't stay in the hobby long enough to end up with old burned out breeders.


Good point. The only reason I even mentioned this is that we have already seen people on here misrepresenting WC Pumilio as CB, if that can happen than why not people misrepresenting the age of their frogs?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Because the people who do that (misrepresenting WC as CB) normally do not last in the hobby.

They flip for awhile and then they move on.

The Chuck Powells and Toddy Kelley's of the hobby hold their breeders.

s


mantisdragon91 said:


> Good point. The only reason I even mentioned this is that we have already seen people on here misrepresenting WC Pumilio as CB, if that can happen than why not people misrepresenting the age of their frogs?


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Tony said:


> Most people don't stay in the hobby long enough to end up with old burned out breeders.


This^ I wonder what the average lifespan of a frog is in this hobby.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

bussardnr said:


> This^ I wonder what the average lifespan of a frog is in this hobby.


I bet it isn't much better than the wild lifespan.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

mantisdragon91 said:


> That's one explanation, but it also wouldn't surprise me if some individuals weren't selling old burn out breeders under false pretences. Happens all the time in the reptile community and I would be shocked if it didn't happen here, even if only on rare occassions.


Just to reiterate, I wasn't accusing anyone of course. Roman and I talked about this at Frog Day though. He was giving me advice as I am keeping my eye out for a group of adult Knob tail geckos. (probably Nephrurus levis levis).

Anyway, I've had my eye on this expensive and rarer gecko since the mid 90s but never pulled the trigger on a pair or group of hatchlings. I mentioned that the prices are still really high for any of these species, even the more common ones. Everything else we discussed aside, he said to watch out for older retired breeders. 

I know for a fact I've bought pairs of snakes for really good deals and I know they were definitely older breeders. While they were easy to cycle, they didn't have many seasons in them for breeding. This happened for me with rough sand boas, hogg island boas, green tree pythons, etc.

All good points though. Thanks everyone for responding with an opinion. It wasn't a concern. More curious than anything.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

But even if someone doesn't stay in the hobby long enough to have older breeders, but were doing well enough to own and maintain breeding pairs, these frogs have to end up somewhere. When someone sells their breeding stock while exiting the hobby, the frogs must go somewhere. So age of the frog shouldn't have anything to do with the amount of time the breeder spends in hobby. Unless of course they practiced poor husbandry and the frogs died in their possession.

So as a breeding pair gets shuffled through from hobbyist to hobbyist, many times their records get lost the first time they get sold to someone who doesn't care to keep detailed records.

I love buying sexed pairs of sub-adults. While with tincs or other species they usually get off to a slow start learning how to breed and produce viable offspring, it pays off in the long run once they do start breeding. 

I wouldn't mind buying retired breeders that are long term captives of a species that is super rare in the hobby. I know that since they might of stopped breeding that they're retirement home is just a sort of final place to live until they die. But still, be nice to be able to observe them and take awesome photos. I'm speaking of the rare egg feeders of course. But I would want to know what I'm buying or taking on. I almost made a deal for a group of adult Koi Galacs that lost some of their vibrant colors and stopped breeding, but were still cool and would be neat to own. And who knows, a change in environment might spark another round of light breeding lol

D


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I just sold a breeding group of P. Vittatus that were just about 4years old and going strong. It happens more than you might think.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Its hard to tell the exact age of some of the WC long term captive pairs. I have pumilio pairs that were brought in in 06 that still breed well. They are 6 years old due to the import date, but are most likely much older. I will never know the true age of them. Finding a true captive bred pair to me is much harder than a WC, since a lot of the frogs we see now for sale are recent imports.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Dan,

I know that older snakes and other reptiles lose their steam and become "retired breeders" (as you say), but I haven't had the experience of older pairs of dart frogs stopping breeding entirely. They may take months off from breeding, but always come around when the females are back in good condition.

I also wouldn't sell my established breeders. I like holding back groups of froglets to grow on to young adults, when I can put some sexed pairs for people. Personally, I like to grow out groups of juveniles of the species I want to work with, then I have the option of picking the best pair for my own collection. I do understand why folks would want to start with sexed pairs right off the bat, though.

Take care, Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> That's one explanation, but it also wouldn't surprise me if some individuals weren't selling old burn out breeders under false pretences. Happens all the time in the reptile community and I would be shocked if it didn't happen here, even if only on rare occassions.


 
There isn't any indication that dendrobatids (and many anurans) undergo reproductive senescence like that seen in other taxa. There are reliable reports in the literature of reproduction in Dendrobates (as defined today) of reproduction into the mid 20s and in Oophaga into the early teens. 

Variations of this have been discussed a number of times on multiple venues.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I suspect that several factors contribute to rarely seeing breeders older than 4 years for sale.

1) People get more attached to pets they've had longer.

2) The types of personalities that frequently cycle frogs (and who a fair number of breeding pairs for sale come from) don't tend to hang on to stuff that long.

3) It doesn't make good business sense to get rid of your oldest/best/most-established breeders, especially when generations closer to wild are more highly valued. Lots of breeders will hold back frogs, and establish new breeding pairs in case something happens to their primary breeders, but as new clutches from the primary breeders are born and reared, the hold backs go on the market, and new frogs slid into their position as hold backs.

4) When breeders older than 4 years come on the market, they tend to hit the market in a way that obscures their age (*Collection Sale! Everything!! Must!!! Go!!!!*).

Why is this thread in the 'dome, anyways? The dome is for discussions that nobody can seem to keep civil, rants, raves, and the like. Stuff like this really belongs in "General." I'm moving it if nobody can come up with a good reason.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Ed, the reason I mentioned retired breeders is because I've heard of this before with dart frogs. While I've heard of an auratus group still breeding after 17 years, the last time I talked to Sean Stewart I mentioned if he was having any luck breeding Koi Galacs and he said he has before in the past, but his group is too old now and has stopped breeding. I've also heard this mentioned for Moonshine galacs. A galac thing?

Obviously a very very high percentage of breeders sold in the hobby are way under 10 years old, but I'm sure as frogs approach 15+ years that there must be some kind of breeding halt. If they reach that age that is. I'm not sure what the average age is of a dart frog kept in optimal conditions it's entire life.

Even if Dart Frogs don't slow down or stop with age, this doesn't change the fact that buyers may believe this. And the sellers mentality is the younger the proven pair for sale the better, as the frogs appear to have more life left in them.

I don't care if you move it or not. I just didn't want to be blamed if this was thought to be a loaded question accusing people of lying about frog ages. So I figured anything can be posted in the thunderdome, even normal frog talk. Though if you'd like people to see it in general, I completely understand that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I worked with a couple of different groups of tinctorius that were at least 15 years of age with no signs of reproductive issues....

There are alot of factors that go into sustained reproduction over long periods.. for example issues with provisioning eggs can drastically reduce fertility and this could also play a role in the perception of when a frog has reached reproductive end... 

Did you ask Sean how old the galactanotus were?


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

No I didn't so they could of been very old


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Paul G has a pair of powder blue tincs that were wild caught 14 years ago. I have five offspring that I got from him as tads and are now subadults and they are gorgeous. I don't want to speak for Paul, but he seems to get a good number of clutches each year.

I'm not certain, but I believe he bought them several years ago and has not had them for 14 years himself, so some folks do sell older breeders, but those are probably like the expensive and rare obligates that are sold among folks who know one another and are rarely advertised.

Paul - I don't mean to speak for you. Please correct me if I am mistaken.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I think the reason is this. If a "frog seller" is going to raise a frog to adulthood, it's usually for 1 of 2 reasons. 

1. To keep the frogs, breed them and get/sell babies from them, or

2. To sell them as sexable adults, which are worth more money than juveniles.

If they are opting for #2, then holding onto an adult for an additional 2 years doesn't really
help them. A 4 year old frog isn't worth more than a 2 year old frog.

That's my guess.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

JimO said:


> Paul G has a pair of powder blue tincs that were wild caught 14 years ago. I have five offspring that I got from him as tads and are now subadults and they are gorgeous. I don't want to speak for Paul, but he seems to get a good number of clutches each year.
> 
> I'm not certain, but I believe he bought them several years ago and has not had them for 14 years himself, so some folks do sell older breeders, but those are probably like the expensive and rare obligates that are sold among folks who know one another and are rarely advertised.
> 
> Paul - I don't mean to speak for you. Please correct me if I am mistaken.


Paul got those from me, they were Lg Adults when I got them. They had slowed down breeding the last year or so when I had them, Paul did know this, and they started producing well again after he got them, I think they liked their vacation home with him.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I thought that was the case, but I didn't want to go out on a limb too much. My memory has started to suffer since I turned 50 last year. 

They are beautiful frogs and still producing some of the best looking powder blues I've ever seen. Also, the beauty of it is that the frogs I now have are F1 from WC.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but here are a couple of photos proving that older frogs still produce healthy, beautiful offspring:

















billschwinn said:


> Paul got those from me, they were Lg Adults when I got them. They had slowed down breeding the last year or so when I had them, Paul did know this, and they started producing well again after he got them, I think they liked their vacation home with him.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I would agree with others in saying that many people don't stay in the hobby long enough to have 4 yr. old breeding frogs...they become a casualty of turnover and people building collections too large, too quickly, and getting in over their heads. Those who are committed and stick with it have older frogs simply because they have stayed in the hobby longer.

I have F1 Costa Rican auratus from a WC trio of Todd Kelley, which have been in captivity now for 15 years and doing well. Who knows how old they were before they were actually collected.

I'm surprised when people speak of frogs being "old" at 2 years--some frogs are just hitting a decent breeding age at that point.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think they are going off of the average estimated age of frogs in the wild. If I remember correctly, the average life span in pumilio is under 4 years in the wild.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Ed said:


> I think they are going off of the average estimated age of frogs in the wild. If I remember correctly, the average life span in pumilio is under 4 years in the wild.



Is that mainly due to predation and habitat availability? I did not realize they had such short lifespans in the wild.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

flapjax3000 said:


> Is that mainly due to predation and habitat availability? I did not realize they had such short lifespans in the wild.


Its due to 'frog farming'...lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flapjax3000 said:


> Is that mainly due to predation and habitat availability? I did not realize they had such short lifespans in the wild.


 I think this is the article JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (sorry no free copy) but can't be sure unless I pull my hard copy. 

Ed


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