# Terribilis foot rot?



## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

I discovered a sore on my mint terribilis' foot this morning. I have four others in the viv, and none of them have it. I don't have any vets in the area I'd trust (though from past experience, I now know of several I SHOULDN'T go to), so any advice? I've never had this problem before.


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## ilovejaden (Jan 6, 2011)

Pics are worth a lot. post some please.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I think the first thing should be find a vet and try and have a culture done to see what kind of bacteria you are dealing with and have them prescribe an antibiotic that can treat the problem.You probably should count on the cage mates having the same problem.


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

billschwinn said:


> I think the first thing should be find a vet and try and have a culture done to see what kind of bacteria you are dealing with and have them prescribe an antibiotic that can treat the problem.You probably should count on the cage mates having the same problem.


I would obviously prefer to work with a vet, but as I said, there aren't any in the area I could trust not to kill the frog, let alone provide real treatment. I've already moved the others out of the viv and into isolation, but that still leaves me with a sick frog I don't know how to treat.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bill is correct. In this case you really can't get away from needing a vet. If the lesion is being caused by a mycobacterial infection, you will need to euthanize, depopulate and toss the cage and everything in it. Not only is it not curable, it can be highly contagious to other herps (and is also a potential human pathogen). 

The attached picture is an example of a lesion caused by a mycobacterial infection in terriblis. Overly wet and poor draining substrates seems to result in lesions in terriblis. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

I really wasn't trying to get out of going to a vet. I just couldn't find one and so was looking for advice in case I never did. That's no longer an issue, though, as I've finally tracked one down. Nowhere near me, of course, but isn't that the way it always goes?


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Good luck at the vet. Let us know how it turns out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sharpn2 said:


> I really wasn't trying to get out of going to a vet. I just couldn't find one and so was looking for advice in case I never did. That's no longer an issue, though, as I've finally tracked one down. Nowhere near me, of course, but isn't that the way it always goes?


I didn't think you were trying to get out of going to a vet. It is just that in this case you need the vet to determine if the lesion is from a mycobacterium infection. 

If it comes back negative, then you should try to increase the drainage in the tank. 

Ed


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

Well, it's not mycobacteria, at least. The vet prescribed the silversulfadiazene ointment--which I'd already ordered from Dr. Frye before the cultures came back--and while I suspect it's likely too late for the frog, it could have been a lot worse. 

...though I'm starting to remember why I'd gotten out of terribilis in the first place. I'd forgotten how easily they fall ill. If they weren't such awesome frogs...


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## Azriel (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm sorry your frog is sick.  Glad it's not mycobacteria though. 

Do you really think terribilis are more prone to illness than other types of dart frogs?


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

Azriel said:


> I'm sorry your frog is sick.  Glad it's not mycobacteria though.
> 
> Do you really think terribilis are more prone to illness than other types of dart frogs?


That's what I'd always heard, and since none of my other frogs have EVER had foot rot in all the years I've been working with darts, I'd say it's probably accurate. I was spraying the mints' viv considerably less than I was any of my others, but apparently it was still too much. 

Ah, well. Live and learn, even if I just lost a $200 frog.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

sharpn2 said:


> That's what I'd always heard, and since none of my other frogs have EVER had foot rot in all the years I've been working with darts, I'd say it's probably accurate. I was spraying the mints' viv considerably less than I was any of my others, but apparently it was still too much.
> 
> Ah, well. Live and learn, even if I just lost a $200 frog.


I keep my mints on oak leaf litter(dry), with access to water. I spray several times a week.I have heard from others who keep Terribilis that they don't like wet feet.My tank is also ventilated.


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

billschwinn said:


> I keep my mints on oak leaf litter(dry), with access to water. I spray several times a week.I have heard from others who keep Terribilis that they don't like wet feet.My tank is also ventilated.


Thanks for the heads up, I was wondering if this would apply to other Phyllobates, would think at least bicolor would be similar. Anyone?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Azriel said:


> Do you really think terribilis are more prone to illness than other types of dart frogs?


I've seen foot lesions twice in tinctorious, and I've seen it 5 times in terribilis over the course of the last 20 years or so. There are a lot more anecodotal claims of foot issues in terribilis than we see in other dendrobatids. The other anecodotal claim, I've heard over the years is that terribilis are more sensitive to temperature spikes over 80 F.. which seems odd to me. 

Ed


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

Ed said:


> I've seen foot lesions twice in tinctorious, and I've seen it 5 times in terribilis over the course of the last 20 years or so. There are a lot more anecodotal claims of foot issues in terribilis than we see in other dendrobatids. The other anecodotal claim, I've heard over the years is that terribilis are more sensitive to temperature spikes over 80 F.. which seems odd to me.
> 
> Ed


That's interesting. Were the tincs yours? Or did you at least see the conditions under which they'd been living? I'm wondering how wet their vivs were, or if there were other factors that might have led to them getting foot rot. Do you know?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sharpn2 said:


> That's interesting. Were the tincs yours? Or did you at least see the conditions under which they'd been living? I'm wondering how wet their vivs were, or if there were other factors that might have led to them getting foot rot. Do you know?


They were not my personal animals but part of an institutional collection. So yes I did see the conditions and they were the same as the ones we see where terriblis have foot issues and in both cases the tinctorius were positive for Mycobacterium. 

Ed


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

Ed said:


> They were not my personal animals but part of an institutional collection. So yes I did see the conditions and they were the same as the ones we see where terriblis have foot issues and in both cases the tinctorius were positive for Mycobacterium.
> 
> Ed


Do you know if any of them lived? It would be really depressing if the institution's entire collection was lost.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sharpn2 said:


> Do you know if any of them lived? It would be really depressing if the institution's entire collection was lost.


They might have lived but due to the communicability of the bacteria to the rest of the entire collection (and the fact that it is a potential zoonotic), all of the animals from that enclosure were euthanized. All materials from inside the enclosure were autoclaved and disposed of into a landfill. The enclosure was repeatedly disinfected over the course of several months. After that time, new animals were aquired for the collection. Some of the affected dendrobatids were more than 15 years old at the time. 

Ed


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

Well, that's just depressing. Better safe than sorry, though.


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