# Very sad day...



## GeorgiaB (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi, 

Im currently raising my first batch of tadpoles and so far ive got two healthy froglets and just about to pop its front legs. I had another two lined up that were a couple of weeks later than the first three but they were two about two weeks behind. I figured they were a long way away from morphing so unless im feeding or cleaning up the water I pretty much leave them alone. 

A couple days ago I decided to check them to see how far along they are and both have already popped tiny underdeveloped front limbs. It seems they both have SLS which was very devastating. Im planning on going and picking up some orajel tommorow to put them down but it sucks. Does this still work if they're in the water? I was planning on putting them in a thin layer of water in a petri dish and putting a little bit on their head. Is there a better way?

Im not sure why it happened since they're from the same parents and were kept in the same conditions but regardless of the reason its really sad I hope its not something that i've done wrong . Anyways just in case this helps anyone the legs popped out way in advanced and I hadnt even noticed them developing. They seemed exactly the same as the others prior to their legs popping out early. Ive taken some pictures which illustrates a pretty severe form (in my opinion) of sls.



















I'm a little discouraged right now and very sad but i hope that at least these pictures will help some other new hobbyist. For now I will just concentrate on my healthy froglets and not bother pulling any eggs for a while.

If you have any suggestions let me know.
Thanks,
Georgia


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry to hear it Georgia. Back in the day, SLS seemed to be most common in Vents. This was back when the trend in feeding was a high algae, low protein, diet. I don't know if this has changed with todays higher protein diets. That would be the first place I would look though. Are you feeding a high quality, high protein, fish food, like Ocean Nutrition?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Makes you feel awful, doesn't it. 

I morphed out an orange lamasi for rcteem while he was out of the country. When I saw he had SLS I just felt terrible. He was my first tad and I was feeding him only fish flakes and a little bit of home grown algae. I don't know if the lack of variety or heavy protein is what did him in or if it was something else. With my second tad (this one was a tinc) I made sure to give him protein (blood worms in this case). He morphed out beautifully.

Purely anecdotal. Different types of frogs, different parents, different everything. I have no way of knowing if the protein helped but I'm going to be sure to use it in the future.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Sorry to hear that.What supplements are the parents getting?They may need more vitamin a.Have they been laying eggs often?
Ed wrote an article on euthanasia on dart den,unfortunately I can't link it.You can search it.It answers your question on orajel and then some.
Lou


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

When I last had to euthanize a froglet with sls, we put him on a small petri dish with no water and quickly put a drop on his head. By not using any water, the benzocaine that slides off his slick body remains undiluted and continues soaking in. This makes sure your efforts are as quick and painless as possible for both you and your froglet.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

When euthanize froglets with sls I put a drop or orajel on the frog's ventral surface. I then place the frog in a 160 oz. container just for sls frogs, with some sphagnum moss in it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bump the vitamin A for the adults, using a dry retinly palmitate source dusted onto the flies once to twice a month. That is the first thing I would do as adults with insufficient vitamin A reserves prodce sls froglets (and if the adults were marginal on the stores of vitamin A, this gives mixed morphing success). This is because many (if not most or all) anurans do not convert beta carotene to vitamin A as efficiently as they need. 
Depending on your media, you may also want to consider adding a previtamin A carotenoid to the media as this will result in at least the deposition of vitamin A analogs in the eyes of the flies. 

Ed


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## GeorgiaB (Apr 23, 2009)

The parents laid these eggs only a few weeks after I bought them so Im not sure what they were on prior to when I bought them. I have them on repashy calcium plus icb. I will look into picking up some vitamin A to add to their diet as well. The tads were on a high protein content fish food so I dont think that was the problem. The parents lay about every week to every other week. It could have been vitamin A so I will try and rectify that imbalance. 

Ed the previtamin A suggestion is very interesting and one i'll look into further. I as under the impression that trying to increase the vitamins in your media didnt increase the nutritional value of the flies. I hadnt heard of previtamins but it would make more sense. 

Thanks for the suggestions,
Georgia


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed, I don't have the link anymore, but you listed a link once that said using a light spiking in 420nm (a reef tank actinic bulb), to light your fruitfly area, will also help with fixing the vitamin A in the flies eyes. The science in the link was a bit over my head, but I think that was the gist of it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Fruit flies require very little in the way of vitamin A or it's precursors to successfully complete metamorphosis.. In adult drosophila, retinal (a form of retinol aka vitamin A) is tied up in the rhodopsin. This enables the visual processes to work properly. A blind or partially blind fruit fly functions just fine inside of a culture so it really isn't a significant disadvantage to the flies. The standard basic commercial media is low in previtamin A sources so the level in the flies should be expected to be low which is supported on analysis of the flies. The amount it is actually increased is unknown outside of the fact that the media is low in it.. 

It also appears (based on other anurans), that beta carotene is poorly transformed by the frogs and even as tadpoles they have other pathways that use other carotenoids (for example as tadpoles, they use astaxanthin..). There is a review in the last issue of TWI's Leaf Litter that covers this.... There are several anecdotal reports that switching over to or including a supplement that contains vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate) and/or alternate carotenoid precursors by themselves may not reverese significant hypovitaminosis of A. However adding a human grade dry vitamin A (As retinly palmitate) at least monthly (some use a couple of times a week) until the issues resolves along with the supplements that contain retinly palmitate resolves the issue. Once the symptoms resolve, there are anecdotal reports that the supplements that contain it seem to keep the frogs in the correct condition. 

Attempting to modify other vitamins is going to be an issue as they do not store D3, and while they will store E, this could create an imbalance in the A to D3 to E ratios as you ideally want the frogs to be ingesting the fat soluble vitamins in an approximation of the following ratios of 10 to 1 to 0.1 (A to D3 to E). As many of the frogs in captivity overall have shown signs of hypovitaminosis of A when necropsies have been performed, it is logical to try and bring the level of A up somewhat.. 
A further issue with attempting to modify the flies is that they are reared in the equivalent of a bioreactor and vitamins are just as likely to be taken up or digested by the microbes as the flies and this is before the risk of oxidation in the active media is even considered. Flies also have extremely efficient methods for excreting surplus calcium preventing them from being able to have thier calcium levels increased. As a further complication, the adult flies feed on liquids, which typically means that there is a rapid turn over of the gut contents as the excess fluid and unneeded solutes are excreted to allow for uptake of the needed nutrients. 

This is a new enough change in the understanding of the nutritional needs that data is still evolving.. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Ed, I don't have the link anymore, but you listed a link once that said using a light spiking in 420nm (a reef tank actinic bulb), to light your fruitfly area, will also help with fixing the vitamin A in the flies eyes. The science in the link was a bit over my head, but I think that was the gist of it.


Hi Doug,

It enables a light assisted conversion of the carotenoids... I don't have the link on this computer. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> It enables a light assisted conversion of the carotenoids... I don't have the link on this computer.
> 
> Ed


So throwing an actinic blue light over your cultures can be helpful in addition to adding a previtamin A carotenoid to the media. If I've got it right, the light would not do much unless you add the vitamin A, too. 
Ed, can I ask what would be good choices to add to the media? Are we talking about some sweet potato flakes, some ground/mashed carot, or maybe a quarter teaspoon of Repashy SuperPig per culture? Are we adding just enough to tint the color of the culture orange?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As I understand it, this is the light driven conversion of carotenoids which is optimized at that wavelength. See http://jgp.rupress.org/content/92/5/587.full.pdf 

The flies are able to convert the carotenoids into the retinol analog in the absence of the strong light. The light enables the flies to convert it a isomer that is more functional for thier use. 

Ed


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I'm curious about this too.



Pumilo said:


> Ed, can I ask what would be good choices to add to the media? Are we talking about some sweet potato flakes, some ground/mashed carot, or maybe a quarter teaspoon of Repashy SuperPig per culture? Are we adding just enough to tint the color of the culture orange?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Where do you get this dry retinly palmitate source to be dusted on FF's?



Ed said:


> Bump the vitamin A for the adults, using a dry retinly palmitate source dusted onto the flies once to twice a month. That is the first thing I would do as adults with insufficient vitamin A reserves prodce sls froglets (and if the adults were marginal on the stores of vitamin A, this gives mixed morphing success). This is because many (if not most or all) anurans do not convert beta carotene to vitamin A as efficiently as they need.
> Depending on your media, you may also want to consider adding a previtamin A carotenoid to the media as this will result in at least the deposition of vitamin A analogs in the eyes of the flies.
> 
> Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> As I understand it, this is the light driven conversion of carotenoids which is optimized at that wavelength. See 404 Not Found
> 
> The flies are able to convert the carotenoids into the retinol analog in the absence of the strong light. The light enables the flies to convert it a isomer that is more functional for thier use.
> 
> Ed


So it sounds like maybe the light doesn't do much for the frogs after all and we should just add some previtamin A carotenoid to the media.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Gorgia am very sorry for you and your tads ,though am hugely greatful that you posted this thread,the ensuing conversation has been hugely informative to us,THANKYOU.
Ed, i would also like to know what we could add to our culture media,to help rectify this vitamin a defiency,and would also add are there other potential feeder animals that are higher in vit a,that could help rectify this problem?
Very greatful thanks both Ed and Doug for asking the questions that i wouldn't have the knowledge to ask,
regards Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Are we talking about some sweet potato flakes, some ground/mashed carot, or maybe a quarter teaspoon of Repashy SuperPig per culture? Are we adding just enough to tint the color of the culture orange?


Sorry got distracted.. beta carotene should work for the flies and this can be found in many sources. I utilize spirulina as it contains a couple of different carotenoids and adds a slight increase in protien. I add a tablespoon to cup of dry media. You have to be careful of how much you add as you can change the protein content of the media which has a direct effect on the survivorship including crashing cultures. 

This is what the cultures look about ten days after being mixed and wetted.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

stu&shaz said:


> Gorgia am very sorry for you and your tads ,though am hugely greatful that you posted this thread,the ensuing conversation has been hugely informative to us,THANKYOU.
> Ed, i would also like to know what we could add to our culture media,to help rectify this vitamin a defiency,and would also add are there other potential feeder animals that are higher in vit a,that could help rectify this problem?
> Very greatful thanks both Ed and Doug for asking the questions that i wouldn't have the knowledge to ask,
> regards Stu


Hey Stu, remember that this would not be a fix all. It would only add a wee bit of A in the flies eyes. You should still be using something like Repashy Calcium Plus (formerly Calcium Plus ICB) and maybe even using human grade dry vitamin A (As retinly palmitate) once a month. Reference Ed's earlier post:
_It also appears (based on other anurans), that beta carotene is poorly transformed by the frogs and even as tadpoles they have other pathways that use other carotenoids (for example as tadpoles, they use astaxanthin..). There is a review in the last issue of TWI's Leaf Litter that covers this.... There are several anecdotal reports that switching over to or including a supplement that contains vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate) and/or alternate carotenoid precursors by themselves may not reverese significant hypovitaminosis of A. However adding a human grade dry vitamin A (As retinly palmitate) at least monthly (some use a couple of times a week) until the issues resolves along with the supplements that contain retinly palmitate resolves the issue. Once the symptoms resolve, there are anecdotal reports that the supplements that contain it seem to keep the frogs in the correct condition. _
A good source of Axtasanthin for tadpoles would be Cyclop-Eeze freeze dried or wafer, availabe at better coral reef shops. CYCLOP-EEZE®: Product Info


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dmartin72 said:


> Where do you get this dry retinly palmitate source to be dusted on FF's?


Hi Dave,

Glad to see your back.. 

It can be purchased locally or online. This is an example solaray - emulsified dry vitamin a, 25000 iu- 60 count

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Hey Stu, remember that this would not be a fix all. It would only add a wee bit of A in the flies eyes. You should still be using something like Repashy Calcium Plus (formerly Calcium Plus ICB) and maybe even using human grade dry vitamin A (As retinly palmitate) once a month. Reference Ed's earlier post:
> _It also appears (based on other anurans), that beta carotene is poorly transformed by the frogs and even as tadpoles they have other pathways that use other carotenoids (for example as tadpoles, they use astaxanthin..). There is a review in the last issue of TWI's Leaf Litter that covers this.... There are several anecdotal reports that switching over to or including a supplement that contains vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate) and/or alternate carotenoid precursors by themselves may not reverese significant hypovitaminosis of A. However adding a human grade dry vitamin A (As retinly palmitate) at least monthly (some use a couple of times a week) until the issues resolves along with the supplements that contain retinly palmitate resolves the issue. Once the symptoms resolve, there are anecdotal reports that the supplements that contain it seem to keep the frogs in the correct condition. _
> A good source of Axtasanthin for tadpoles would be Cyclop-Eeze freeze dried or wafer, availabe at better coral reef shops. CYCLOP-EEZE®: Product Info


This may not resolve the SLS either.. as insufficient vitamin A can affect the embryos as the limb buds begin formation prior to hatching. This is why proper supplementation of the adults is crucial.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Sorry got distracted.. beta carotene should work for the flies and this can be found in many sources. I utilize spirulina as it contains a couple of different carotenoids and adds a slight increase in protien. I add a tablespoon to cup of dry media. You have to be careful of how much you add as you can change the protein content of the media which has a direct effect on the survivorship including crashing cultures.
> 
> This is what the cultures look about ten days after being mixed and wetted.


Sweet. I did not realize Spirulina was a good source of carotenoids. I have plenty of powdered Spirulina around. A quick search shows that Chlorella algae powder would be a good source too. I have some of that left over also.
Stu, these are both available from any health food store. Make sure you get some with no additives or preservatives.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> This may not resolve the SLS either.. as insufficient vitamin A can affect the embryos as the limb buds begin formation prior to hatching. This is why proper supplementation of the adults is crucial.


Thanks Ed, I did catch that and was just throwing out a good source for the tads, too.


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## frugs (Oct 27, 2007)

Ed I was wondering if there might be something that may be added to the viv that might help add the A in there environment that could be taken in through another source such as water or through springtails or something? I don't know may be a stupid question


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is at least theoretically possible to increase the nutrient content of springtails. There was at least one study done on increasing HUFA content of springtals (see the discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/11933-springtails-how-nutritious-they.html#post101293) 

Springtails are probably a difficult subject as they tend to be grazers on bacterial and fungal films and getting them to feed on those materials as opposed to the bacteria that is growing on it in the enclosure is the difficulty.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Have you tried adding live spirulina to cultures? Would a fresh culture retain more of its nutritional value than a dried one?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Frogface,

I only use human grade Spirulina as tadpole food and have never had a case of sls. I mostly work with Tinctorius and Leucomelas morphs, but have also raised Iquitos vents and Varadero imitators using Spirulina with no problems.

As Ed has pointed out, it is the nutritional health of the parents that probably makes the greatest difference in avoiding sls in froglets.

Take care, Richard.



frogface said:


> Makes you feel awful, doesn't it.
> 
> I morphed out an orange lamasi for rcteem while he was out of the country. When I saw he had SLS I just felt terrible. He was my first tad and I was feeding him only fish flakes and a little bit of home grown algae. I don't know if the lack of variety or heavy protein is what did him in or if it was something else. With my second tad (this one was a tinc) I made sure to give him protein (blood worms in this case). He morphed out beautifully.
> 
> Purely anecdotal. Different types of frogs, different parents, different everything. I have no way of knowing if the protein helped but I'm going to be sure to use it in the future.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I highly doubt it.. The conditions in the culture are going to cause the spirulina to begin to die so decomposition will also occur there. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Hey Stu, remember that this would not be a fix all. It would only add a wee bit of A in the flies eyes. You should still be using something like Repashy Calcium Plus (formerly Calcium Plus ICB) and maybe even using human grade dry vitamin A (As retinly palmitate) once a month. Reference Ed's earlier post:
> _It also appears (based on other anurans), that beta carotene is poorly transformed by the frogs and even as tadpoles they have other pathways that use other carotenoids (for example as tadpoles, they use astaxanthin..). There is a review in the last issue of TWI's Leaf Litter that covers this.... There are several anecdotal reports that switching over to or including a supplement that contains vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate) and/or alternate carotenoid precursors by themselves may not reverese significant hypovitaminosis of A. However adding a human grade dry vitamin A (As retinly palmitate) at least monthly (some use a couple of times a week) until the issues resolves along with the supplements that contain retinly palmitate resolves the issue. Once the symptoms resolve, there are anecdotal reports that the supplements that contain it seem to keep the frogs in the correct condition. _
> A good source of Axtasanthin for tadpoles would be Cyclop-Eeze freeze dried or wafer, availabe at better coral reef shops. CYCLOP-EEZE®: Product Info


Ahh Doug,really appreciate you spelling this out for me/us,didn't think it would be a cure all,but i guess the beginners take is that all these little nuances will help out in the big scheme,of trying to get our little frogs a diet that,is as complete as possible in vits and nutrients. Again my beginners opinion: there is no way we could possibly compete with the biodiversity of food that is available in nature,so just trying to get my head around everything that we can do, to help them along,yeah repashy is onits way from the states via a friend mate.
Of course the tadpoles are along way off for us yet but everything we can do to help the adults along should help,with the viability of the tadpoles.
I will look in to your recomendations,and see whether these products are available here,again very greatful to you both,and for clarifing things for me Doug,there is a heck of alot to take on board for a beginner!!!!!
Stu


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## ctenosaur (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm very sorry for your problems. As I too am new to frogs, there is a lot of helpful information here.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> take is that all these little nuances will help out in the big scheme,of trying to get our little frogs a diet that,is as complete as possible in vits and nutrients. Again my beginners opinion: there is no way we could possibly compete with the biodiversity of food that is available in nature,


 
This is one of those items that is conflicts with what we know about the nutritional content of the invertebrates.. all of the analysis of invertebrates shows that they are poor sources of preformed vitamin A and in general poor sources of carotenoids. We should be looking past the diet towards husbandry as a cause of the insufficient nutrition.. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> This is one of those items that is conflicts with what we know about the nutritional content of the invertebrates.. all of the analysis of invertebrates shows that they are poor sources of preformed vitamin A and in general poor sources of carotenoids. We should be looking past the diet towards husbandry as a cause of the insufficient nutrition..
> 
> Ed


Ed,sorry to have not asked this earlier but,events(ie our first tads) have found me going back over as much as possible with regards to youngsters.Apologies for not asking this at the time you posted!!
if by chance you see this could you please clarify for me what you mean by the last sentance" We should be looking past the diet towards husbandry,as a cause of the insufficient nutrition". Simply put, I don't understand
Thankyou
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> Ed,sorry to have not asked this earlier but,events(ie our first tads) have found me going back over as much as possible with regards to youngsters.Apologies for not asking this at the time you posted!!
> if by chance you see this could you please clarify for me what you mean by the last sentance" We should be looking past the diet towards husbandry,as a cause of the insufficient nutrition". Simply put, I don't understand
> Thankyou
> Stu


There are a lot of husbandry practices that change the metabolic requirements for nutrients in the frogs, some of the most common are setting up the frogs in conditions which optimize reproduction year round or maximizes activity periods above and beyond that found in natural populations... 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> There are a lot of husbandry practices that change the metabolic requirements for nutrients in the frogs, some of the most common are setting up the frogs in conditions which optimize reproduction year round or maximizes activity periods above and beyond that found in natural populations...
> 
> Ed


Wow you found it thankyou sir!!!!! Do you mean that by us not implimenting wet and dry seasons this effects the frogs ability to take up differing nutrients,so affecting the vigour/health of the larvea,actually, and the adults too. ie we push the frogs harder than nature intends,which over stretches them ,leading to said problems,with sls,and general viability with the eggs. Thanks for baring with me ,Ed,its very important i understand these concepts.
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> Wow you found it thankyou sir!!!!! Do you mean that by us not implimenting wet and dry seasons this effects the frogs ability to take up differing nutrients,so affecting the vigour/health of the larvea,actually, and the adults too. ie we push the frogs harder than nature intends,which over stretches them ,leading to said problems,with sls,and general viability with the eggs. Thanks for baring with me ,Ed,its very important i understand these concepts.
> Stu


It is a complex topic and not readily covered in posts (and a lot of typing). 

It isn't that they can't absorb the nutrients but that they have a demand for them that is higher than can be readily provided via the diet. 

As an example, egg formation is controlled by enviromental cues and fat reserves. As many of the frogs in captivity are obese and kept in conditions to encourage reproduction year round, they often will form eggs that do not have sufficient reserves to permit successful development of the eggs, tadpoles or metamorphs. This appears to be one of the most common causes of sls... 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> It is a complex topic and not readily covered in posts (and a lot of typing).
> 
> It isn't that they can't absorb the nutrients but that they have a demand for them that is higher than can be readily provided via the diet.
> 
> ...


Again thankyou,this has been very thought provoking for me(the whole thread) and these words at the end,we will try to impliment as much as possible,from it. As i eluded to earlier we have our very first tad in the water,another clutch of eggs in developement,another clutch laid today,and probably more very soon as i got home from grafting and disturbed a courting couple i think! These are all comming from our young superblue auratus of which we have a group of 3(looks very much like 2 females both from todays observations and the speed that the clutches are arriving).we utterly did not expect this yet,I wish we were better prepared,even though we have been planning and reading for at least 18 months before keeping frogs. Ed there is just so so much to learn with this hobby,thankyou for all the wise words,very greatful,we shall keep plugging away at it,
best always
Stu


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