# Cooling Dart tanks without AC unit question?



## Dogger25 (Apr 17, 2012)

Little bit of background about my situation. I live in Oklahoma with outside temps in the summer averaging 95-100. The only room I can keep my herps in is a fully converted garage room with central heat and air that averages 80 degrees in the hottest parts of the summer. I keep many diferent reptiles which makes the room temp. good. 

Now here's my question. Is there any reliable alternative way to cool down DF tanks without using a portable ac unit? I really can't use a portable ac unit with exhaust running to the windows. Maybe a regulated thermo control water chiller... Any thoughts, information or experience with this issue would be appreciated.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

They do have wall mounted AC units that we used for a project that should work correctly. I will see if I can find it.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm not familiar with using a water chiller for something like our vivs, but i have experience with them for fish tanks. I hate to rely on them. My former boss had a gorgeous 90g show reef tank with 4 halides & T5s on it with a canopy so needless to say each time the fuse went out on the chiller the tank burnt up and several fish and coral couldn't survive. And I'd say it went out about 4 different times over the course of about 5 years. 

But if the temps don't get higher than 80 in that room then it doesn't seem like you'd necessarily be heavily relying on it so that's good.

I would add good vents, and make sure to use low wattage lights, and have fans set up. And I think you'd be fine.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Hey another fellow Oklahoma person! 

Fans in the vivs or blowing into/out of the vivs or blowing over the vivs ventilation on timers and a consistent misting schedule will take you down a couple degrees through much of the day.

Um the modified with a hose running into the tank cool mist foggers are an option though you may have to run them quite a bit...timers are good. That fog that comes out is pretty chilled usually. Run them with RO, or distilled water to increase their lifespan.

You could set it up so that you mist...fan, fog....fan, mist etc..etc... Have it cycling in some way similar to that all day and on warm nights and you'll probably be able to keep your temps down and your humidity up but not over saturate or over dry your tank. Misting is the tricky part...once you start saturating the soil more misting isn't a good idea, there is a point where you get diminishing returns...so you Dust everything with water, get the substrate moist then let the fans blow over for some evaporative cooling...and repeat...maybe hitting it with the cool mist fogger between those cycles. 

Swamp/evaporative cooling units for the room are another option, and may be adequate if your temps in fact don't go much over 80, because most darts can tolerate low to mid 80's for quite awhile...it is the extended periods of 90+ temps that can be the real killer especially if the tank isn't ventilated/running fans and they have to endure those temps for more then a day or 2....95+ and you are definitely in the red zone even for a day or 2...you have a real risk of losing at least some animals. 

Then you can run cool led lighting so that your lights aren't really increasing your internal tank temps at all or more then a degree, and have minimal impact on overall room temps. Running a bunch of tanks with a ton of cfl or t-5 lighting can start to raise temp of the entire room, less of a concern with LEDs. Most of my CFL lighting tends to on average raise my tank temps about 3-4 degrees...and when temps soar that 3-4 degrees can be the difference in life or death. 

You might also try 1/4 -1 inch styrofoam sheets on the sides and back to insulate the tanks so that they maintain the proper temps longer and don't heat up as fast after cooling during the night. This is only a good idea usually if you are not adding more heat to the tank in some way like with lighting...because then you are creating a hot box instead of a frog cooler


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I wouldn't be concerned about 80 degrees in most cases. You did say *AVERAGE* though, what are the high and low temps? If the garage only ever gets up to 80-82, I think you're fine. Dendro Daves suggestions are very good.

I live in El Paso Texas where the temps hit 100-110 in the summer. We have a swamp cooler that struggles to keep the house below 80. Sometimes the temp will even climb as high as 82-84 on a super hot day. All my vivs have fans blowing across the lights in the summer, and thus over the vents as well. My tanks occationally climp to 80-82, and on the very rare occation, 84. The traditional dogmatic approach to temperatures, would have most froggers freaking out., however; as long as your tanks are ventilated, and the frogs have wet and dry areas, they'll thermoregulate just fine on their own. All of my frogs are breeding in some capacity and are completely healthy.

I think it is very important to understand where the typical temperature ranges recommended have come from in the past and why in some cases, with the right husbandry approach, higher temperatures are much less of a concern. In the past it was typical for froggers to seal up their vivs tight, with little or no ventilation, to maintain very high humidity. At high temperatures, this is VERY bad, because the frogs cant cool off through evaporative cooling of their skin. Darts have been observed transitioning from wet to dry areas and it is speculated/assumed, that they're cooling off by allowing water to evaporate from their skin.

FYI - I use a combination of LED and T5 lighting, the LED, I really don't need much of a fan, the t5s, yes, definitely, but still not an issue.

So basically, vent your tanks, fans on the lights, don't stress too much.

Lastly, you could always consider a reverse day night cycle, where your lights are on at night while it is cooler, this limiting the heat buildup.

I know that this doesn't really answer your question directly, rather lets you know that at least in my opinion, you don't have as much to worry about as you think.

Of course, there are always certain darts that seem to prefer cooler temps, and some that like it warmer. What frogs are you keeping specifically?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Whitneyd88 said:


> I'm not familiar with using a water chiller for something like our vivs, but i have experience with them for fish tanks. I hate to rely on them. My former boss had a gorgeous 90g show reef tank with 4 halides & T5s on it with a canopy so needless to say each time the fuse went out on the chiller the tank burnt up and several fish and coral couldn't survive. And I'd say it went out about 4 different times over the course of about 5 years.
> 
> But if the temps don't get higher than 80 in that room then it doesn't seem like you'd necessarily be heavily relying on it so that's good.
> 
> I would add good vents, and make sure to use low wattage lights, and have fans set up. And I think you'd be fine.


I HATE chillers, HATE them with a passion. They will all eventually fail, either the compressor, the fan, the water flowing through them, something, even the best ones. At one time I was maintaining over 45 custom reef installs in the Houston area. I found several work arounds for this. Not sure if you're friends with your old boss still, but there are some very simple, bomb proof as I like to call them, solutions to this kind of problem. Fortunately with LED lighting becoming so prevalant in the REEF hobby though, the need for or reliance on a chiller is much less of an issue these days. I've seen chillers fail on a reef with 6 1000 watt halides and the tank was at 95degrees within 4 hours, all because the client refused to spend a few extra bux on a computer monitor that would automatically shut them down (and send me a text message/email/voicemail) when the temp got too high.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I HATE chillers, HATE them with a passion. They will all eventually fail, either the compressor, the fan, the water flowing through them, something, even the best ones. At one time I was maintaining over 45 custom reef installs in the Houston area. I found several work arounds for this. Not sure if you're friends with your old boss still, but there are some very simple, bomb proof as I like to call them, solutions to this kind of problem. Fortunately with LED lighting becoming so prevalant in the REEF hobby though, the need for or reliance on a chiller is much less of an issue these days. I've seen chillers fail on a reef with 6 1000 watt halides and the tank was at 95degrees within 4 hours, all because the client refused to spend a few extra bux on a computer monitor that would automatically shut them down (and send me a text message/email/voicemail) when the temp got too high.


My old boss is a very close friend of mine, they're like a second family. He's since moved his store from Augusta GA to Alpharetta GA, his store is called Pure Reef now, used to be Star Aquatics. So I can't remember if he's still relying on a chiller for his now 400g show reef tank or if he's done away with halides inside closed canopies. Chillers are the devil. lol


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## Dogger25 (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have a 90 gallon that i'm trying to account for all the variables before i begin this build. My experience is in Malawi freshwater tanks and reptiles. So I'm excited about this venture in PDF's if all the requirements can be met. 

The room is 30' X 10 ' with one ceiling fan and one ac outlet. I have access to above the ceiling so I think my next step is to insulate thoroughly and wait for the temps to get in the 100's here. Before I do (constuction) on the set up.

DendroDave - I've read some of your posts on several subjects. I feel your pain on your loss during that ice storm. I lost about 1000 in hand picked malawi chiclids with power being out for weak. 

Did you go to the reptile expo in Broken Arrow Sunday There was a vendor there with some nice PDFs there. 

Zookeeper Doug- It's good to hear about your experience with the temps in your area and how they can use thermoreg for there needs. I haven't currently purchased any yet. I'm pondering maybe some orange terribillis or some fine spot leucs. I want to get it set up and make sure I can keep the temp gradient that's needed before purchasing.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I wouldn't be concerned about 80 degrees in most cases. You did say *AVERAGE* though, what are the high and low temps? If the garage only ever gets up to 80-82, I think you're fine. Dendro Daves suggestions are very good.
> 
> I live in El Paso Texas where the temps hit 100-110 in the summer. We have a swamp cooler that struggles to keep the house below 80. Sometimes the temp will even climb as high as 82-84 on a super hot day. All my vivs have fans blowing across the lights in the summer, and thus over the vents as well. My tanks occationally climp to 80-82, and on the very rare occation, 84. The traditional dogmatic approach to temperatures, would have most froggers freaking out., however; as long as your tanks are ventilated, and the frogs have wet and dry areas, they'll thermoregulate just fine on their own. All of my frogs are breeding in some capacity and are completely healthy.
> 
> ...


Forgot the reverse day/night cycle...good catch


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Reverse day-night cycle could be a problem if you have noisy frogs! I have pumilio and epips... I live in a condo and at night the neighbors lynch me! 
I use fans and lights off on the hottest days. But in summer I'm always anxious for my frogs.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

I did a crazy thermoelectric cooler that cools my viv down 4-5 degrees F. The only drawback is that it seems to dry the viv out, but as long as I stay on top of misting, it works for me.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Can you post a pic of your thermoelectric cooler? I am interested in buying something like this, but I ho nave clear idea.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

rigel10 said:


> Can you post a pic of your thermoelectric cooler? I am interested in buying something like this, but I ho nave clear idea.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/82510-thermoelectric-cooler-cool-viv.html
I have pictures there, however, i replaced the heatsink on top with a much larger heatsink. Pm me if you have any questions.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

I didnt have time to read through everyones ideas so apologies if this was suggested a million times, but Id first try simple things like elevating your light source an inch further away from your enclosure(for me its all I needed to do to drop a few degrees during summer months)... If you havent already done that it will for sure give you a drop of a couple of degrees... Next Id try to keep the room cooler by maybe pulling down shades if its getting sun for most of the day. Like someone else mentioned, I agree it is really not much of a concern if your highest points are not much over 80. If temps are getting into the higher 80s & venturing into the dangerous highs Id move the cage if possible to a cooler area or try to cool the room with AC just enough to maintain the safe temp parameters. During heat waves I keep my Ac on energy saver at 78 just to keep the room from getting too hot, but thats only a couple weeks out of the year.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

@Goof901: Thank you very much, your post is helpfull.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Might be best to stick with species that are known for being better able to take high temperatures? I think terribilis are known for being more sensitive in this regard. You could scratch that itch for a bright yellow frog with galacts perhaps. 

ZookeeperDoug: What species do you keep and do you have comments on the above?


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