# dendrobates auratus vs leucomelas vs?



## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

I'm trying to decide which species to go with for my first frogs, I have my Viv built and planted.. have just been letting plants establish and start to settle in. I have added some dwarf white isopods and springtails last week. While i let it settle in a little more i'm trying to decide which darts to go with.

I'm leaning towards Auratus or leucomelas both are said to do well in groups.
Slightly leaning towards Auratus as they also have a quiet call (and the viv is beside my work desk in the home office.. meetings. Live streams ect)
From my understanding both species is fairly bold and should be out and visible most of the time.

Criteria

Dose well in groups, would like a small group.
Bright/colorful!
Not "too loud" for work/livestreaming purposes
Ideally also make use of vertical space
Bold - would like to actually see them on the daily

Enclosure, exoterra 24x18x36
humidity 95-100%
temp 20-23c
misting 20s @ 4am/8am/12pm/4pm/8pm will likely reduce it a bit once all the moss is established.
More Pics @ Login • Instagram

I'm also open to other specie if there is a better option for my setup!


Thanks in advance


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

LeafDudes said:


> humidity 95-100%


Not sure how you're measuring your humidity (hygrometers are notoriously inaccurate), but assuming it's accurate, that's a little too high for the frogs. Current best practices aim to target the mid to low 80s.

Regarding the post's main topic, some old threads that may be relevant:








Leucomelas, Auratus or Tinctorius?


I am new to dart frogs and I need help on which kind of dart I should get. I think I have narrowed it down to these three species. (Leucomelas, Auratus, and Tinctorius.) I know they all have their pros and cons, but I am looking for the one that is the most active, gets along in groups, and is...




www.dendroboard.com












Leucomelas or Azureus?


Hi again! I mentioned in my last thread I was planning on getting a pair of leucomelas, or perhaps azureus for my first darts. I thought since this was a more specific question, i might as well make another thread -apologies if this was the incorrect assumption. So basically, i'm finding myself...




www.dendroboard.com


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

I have a sensorpush wireless sensor sitting at the back of of the tank I do have a fan blowing to the top glass for subtle air flow.. Maybe ill add another 40mm fan to either blow in or suck air some air to promote some more exchange


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

LeafDudes said:


> sensorpush wireless sensor sitting at the back of of the tank I do have a fan blowing to the top glass for subtle air flow


If it's right next to the vents then I'd assume that's the place with the lowest humidity in your tank?

How long does it take for the leaves of your plants to dry out after misting? That's what I've been using to gauge how wet things should be. I aim for most leaves to be dry 2-3 hours after misting.


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

Anon123 said:


> If it's right next to the vents then I'd assume that's the place with the lowest humidity in your tank?
> 
> How long does it take for the leaves of your plants to dry out after misting? That's what I've been using to gauge how wet things should be. I aim for most leaves to be dry 2-3 hours after misting.


It’s in the baxk behind the large bromiliade (didn’t want it visible)

assuming it’s most humidity at the substrate. 
i added a 40mm fan to the top to suck out some air so we’ll see where it sits tomorrow

back to the original question. Frog recommendations  any suggestions or others I should be looking into?


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

LeafDudes said:


> back to the original question. Frog recommendations  any suggestions or others I should be looking into?


Given the way your tank is set up (not much floor space due to the giant stump), I'd say it seems more fitting for the more arboreal thumbnail species than it is for the more terrestrial ones. Granted I don't have any experiences with them, they aren't the most beginner friendly, and tend to not be as bold depending on the species. But you shouldn't get a frog that you don't care for at the end of the day.

Between Leucs and Auratus, I'd say Lecus as they're pretty well known to use any space you make available for them and will make good use of the tank. But if noise is an absolute deal breaker then probably don't get them.








Help me by Ranking your frogs by noise level


After reading this board for a little while now I'm starting to think that I might try some Ranidae frogs so I can get more diurnal frog action. Before I look into the care and behavior of "dart frogs" I want to ask the most important question... how loud are they? Sure I can go on YouTube and...




www.dendroboard.com


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## Paluscape (Jul 25, 2021)

I really like the hardscape/design of your viv. Very naturalistic with the creeping plants climbing up the sides of a tree. Also a big fan of how you've layered the substrate.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Given the way you designed this tank, my recommendation of the two species you have identified is _leucomelas_. They are better climbers then auratus.

@Anon123 described it well with their post I'm quoting here:



Anon123 said:


> Given the way your tank is set up (not much floor space due to the giant stump), I'd say it seems more fitting for the more arboreal thumbnail species than it is for the more terrestrial ones. Granted I don't have any experiences with them, they aren't the most beginner friendly, and tend to not be as bold depending on the species.


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## Vargoje3 (Oct 5, 2020)

I would go with some Leucomelas. I have a group of banded that spend 90% of the time up at the top of the tank, they like to climb. The call isn't that loud, my group is in my living room and has never bothered me or my guests. Leucs just make great beginner or experienced frogs. My banded leucs are shy though and i mostly see them out in the morning and evening but people say thats normal for that morph. The normals are supposed to be even bolder.


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

Anon123 said:


> If it's right next to the vents then I'd assume that's the place with the lowest humidity in your tank?
> 
> How long does it take for the leaves of your plants to dry out after misting? That's what I've been using to gauge how wet things should be. I aim for most leaves to be dry 2-3 hours after misting.


So i moved the humidity sensor to the front right (so sensor is near tank vents) and now its reading 81.4% so i think it was just the location of the sensor.



Paluscape said:


> I really like the hardscape/design of your viv. Very naturalistic with the creeping plants climbing up the sides of a tree. Also a big fan of how you've layered the substrate.


Thanks Paluscape! I spent ages making that tree to be the backgound for it! I couldnt find any cool wood locally and decided to just make my own! 




fishingguy12345 said:


> Given the way you designed this tank, my recommendation of the two species you have identified is _leucomelas_. They are better climbers then auratus.


My only worry is how loud their call can be being right beside my work desk.
I'm also open to other species if you have any other suggestions that may be a better fit.





Vargoje3 said:


> I would go with some Leucomelas. I have a group of banded that spend 90% of the time up at the top of the tank, they like to climb. The call isn't that loud, my group is in my living room and has never bothered me or my guests. Leucs just make great beginner or experienced frogs. My banded leucs are shy though and i mostly see them out in the morning and evening but people say thats normal for that morph. The normals are supposed to be even bolder.


That promising! If your viv was on/beside your desk would you say the call would be too loud or noticeable in work calls or podcast/livestreams?


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Leucs are loud iirc. You could look into thumbnails, but they are not as bold as leucs.

Ricky


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

All the "beginner" thumbs would be a volume issue, too, I think. Mine call often, too. 

Yeah, leucs are pretty loud. They would be quite audible from across the room.


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

I do keep reef tanks and lots of coral.. so not to worried about it being "beginner" or "intermediate " culturing fruit flies seems like the hardest part.. which doesnt look to hard! so far isopods and springtails are minimal effort.

It doesnt make sense to get something that just hides.. so something bold or active is a big plus.. Its nice to see your beautiful frogs!

ok - Bold (you actually see them in the day)
not to loud
can have more then 3 (target 4-6)
Ideally climbs as well to make use of my cool tree!


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Ranitomeya variabilis 'southern.' Bold as auratus. Larger than most thumbs. Do great in groups. And no one on my phone or teams can hear my frogs call.


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

JasonE said:


> Ranitomeya variabilis 'southern.' Bold as auratus. Larger than most thumbs. Do great in groups. And no one on my phone or teams can hear my frogs call.


Awesome! Love to hear that. I think I have it down to dendrobates azureus (el coup or Costa Rican ) vs Ranitomeya variabilis "southern"


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

LeafDudes said:


> Awesome! Love to hear that. I think I have it down to dendrobates azureus (el coup or Costa Rican ) vs Ranitomeya variabilis "southern"


I think you meant auratus. I love Costa Ricans more than any other auratus but your set up is lacking in vertical substrate levels for them. They would need a layout that essentially offers "shelves" of ground and plants for them to climb up. More like a hillside than a stump. Ranitomeya really are the best frog for your set up.

If you like auratus you can always build another viv with their needs in mind.


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

LeafDudes said:


> r than most thumbs. Do great in groups. And no one on





JasonE said:


> I think you meant auratus. I love Costa Ricans more than any other auratus but your set up is lacking in vertical substrate levels for them. They would need a layout that essentially offers "shelves" of ground and plants for them to climb up. More like a hillside than a stump. Ranitomeya really are the best frog for your set up.
> 
> If you like auratus you can always build another viv with their needs in mind.


Thanks Jason, sounds like Ranitomeya may be the winner. 

Ranitomeya variabilis 'southen'
Ranitomeya summersi
Ranitomeya variabilis - borja ridge

still digging into others  Now to find the boldest Ranitomeya that has a quiet call


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

LeafDudes said:


> Thanks Jason, sounds like Ranitomeya may be the winner.
> 
> Ranitomeya variabilis 'southen'
> Ranitomeya summersi
> ...


You're looking for southern variabilis.


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

JasonE said:


> You're looking for southern variabilis.


haha yes! Typo.
So in theory all these should have a fairly quiet call


Ranitomeya summersi
Ranitomeya uakarii
Ranitomeya reticulata
Ranitomeya benedicta 
Ranitomeya variabilis "borja ridge'
Ranitomeya variabilis 'southern'

Are any of those more bold then others? or any good reason to pick one over the other?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

As a group, Ranitomeya are shy compared to tincs or leucs. A bold thumb is kind of like, say, a non-territorial damselfish -- you have to understand the term is relative to the group.

R. reticulata and R. bendicta are not for the inexperienced. Retics are exceedingly small. They're bold in a very shy way (mine aren't usually out but when they are they'll hold their ground against my staring pretty well). Benedicta are said to be shy, and fast (another relative term -- fast compared to a group that is known for engaging in teleportation. I've had more than one thumbnail fly over my shoulder before I registered it). Uakarii (and most keepers say retics) are not group frogs. 

With any of the thumbs, they'd really appreciate a thick few layers of leaf litter on the entire bottom of the viv. All darts would, but thumbs most of all as they do a lot of hiding and foraging under there.

The thumbs are basically the SPS of frogs (most of the rest are LPS, and leucs are... a big Red Serpent Star, maybe? What's really durable and pretty cool in a reef tank?). Vanzolinii, imitator, sirensis, flavovittata, amazonia and variabilis are like Montipora. The rest are one or another of the Acropora. Perhaps not the best analogy, since technology has solved most reefkeeping problems, but hopefully enlightening anyway.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

LeafDudes said:


> I do keep reef tanks and lots of coral.. so not to worried about it being "beginner" or "intermediate


Last I had heard most reef tank inhabitants don't view any opening of the door to mean "I must jump out and explore whatever is outside" ... Dart frogs will jump right out of the tank.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Last I had heard most reef tank inhabitants don't view any opening of the door to mean "I must jump out and explore whatever is outside" ... Dart frogs will jump right out of the tank.


That's a freshwater thing, actually -- hatchetfish (_Carnegiella sp.)_ are absolutely miserable like this, much worse than darts.

Seriously, though, there are some things that translate -- keeping a close eye on inhabitants, mostly; the degree of attention required. Other things don't translate -- there's a whole new language of behavioral hints to be learned about frogs that actually relates more to reptile keeping than reefkeeping, for example. We talked about these sorts of things in this thread a while back.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That's a freshwater thing, actually -- hatchetfish (_Carnegiella sp.)_ are absolutely miserable like this, much worse than darts.
> 
> Seriously, though, there are some things that translate -- keeping a close eye on inhabitants, mostly; the degree of attention required. Other things don't translate -- there's a whole new language of behavioral hints to be learned about frogs that actually relates more to reptile keeping than reefkeeping, for example. We talked about these sorts of things in this thread a while back.


And don't forget that facet which leans far more into advanced gardening/horticulture. I didn't expect so much of what I had learned of years as a gardener to apply to this hobby, and yet I see principles from all over the plant keeping hobby pop up all the time. I'm not even into the advanced stuff like orchids or ferns, either (at least, not yet, haha) This isn't to say I went in a plant expert- I managed to kill Pilea of all things- but it certainly was helpful going in. 

OP, worth keeping in mind there's no shame at all in keeping a viv without animals if you decide you don't want to go with any of the darts which fit it. Heck, I think there's plenty of pros to doing so- namely, you get to have gorgeous moss carpets, and you can plant whatever you want without worrying about what the frogs need.
My advice to any prospective animal keeper is to find the species that you specifically like, for one reason or another- and then design a viv to fit it. You might have to make some sacrifices on the aesthetic front, but it's well worth it with happy and content animals that _you _wanted.


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Last I had heard most reef tank inhabitants don't view any opening of the door to mean "I must jump out and explore whatever is outside" ... Dart frogs will jump right out of the tank.


Many saltwater fish are jumpers. Especially wrasses. Have also had tangs and triggerfish take a leap. A good lid is important!





Socratic Monologue said:


> As a group, Ranitomeya are shy compared to tincs or leucs. A bold thumb is kind of like, say, a non-territorial damselfish -- you have to understand the term is relative to the group.
> 
> R. reticulata and R. bendicta are not for the inexperienced. Retics are exceedingly small. They're bold in a very shy way (mine aren't usually out but when they are they'll hold their ground against my staring pretty well). Benedicta are said to be shy, and fast (another relative term -- fast compared to a group that is known for engaging in teleportation. I've had more than one thumbnail fly over my shoulder before I registered it). Uakarii (and most keepers say retics) are not group frogs.
> 
> ...


haha I appreciate the SPS analogy!












ParrotAlex said:


> OP, worth keeping in mind there's no shame at all in keeping a viv without animals if you decide you don't want to go with any of the darts which fit it. Heck, I think there's plenty of pros to doing so- namely, you get to have gorgeous moss carpets, and you can plant whatever you want without worrying about what the frogs need.
> My advice to any prospective animal keeper is to find the species that you specifically like, for one reason or another- and then design a viv to fit it. You might have to make some sacrifices on the aesthetic front, but it's well worth it with happy and content animals that _you _wanted.


Agreed, I figured i would start with plants, get it to a happy thriving stage then add frogs. I woudl likely be happy with just plants as its starting to look awesome but i do think adding darts and more life would be more rewarding. (minus culturing fruit flys but it looks pretty easy)

I'm still in the researchings strage trying to narrow it down to find the best dart to suit my setup.... slowly but surely narrowing it down!

My Big worry is finding one thats to shy or reclusive that i never see.. I would rather them be out and about all the time.
Leuc's would be perfect if they were not as loud
Thumbnails climb which is awesome for mybig tree!
Tincs' bold and quiet but only really make use of the ground
auratus - said to be shyer.. el cope seems to be one of thebolder of the aratus


I have been buidling a spredd sheet to narrow it down as i find data on the form 

*local**Loudness (1-10)**Make use vertical space**Groups**Boldness (1-10)*Ameerega bassleri - 5/5.55Adelphobates galactonotus - 11Ameerega bassleri: 5, but a pleasant sound5NAmeerega pepperi: 5 (but I love the sound of their call)5NAmeerega trivittata: 5, less pleasant tone than pepperi5N*Dendrobates auratus - 1*1-2Y4-6Dendrobates leucomelas - 4.5/55Acrobats!yes*Dendrobates tinctorius - 1*12-3Epipedobates anthonyi - 88Oophaga pumilio - 66-8NOophaga pumilio: 66Phyllobates bicolor - 55Phyllobates terribilis - 88Ranitomeya flavovittata - 55Acrobats!YRanitomeya imitator - 55YRanitomeya sirensis - 55YY*Ranitomeya summersi - 1*1Y*Ranitomeya uakarii: 1*1Y*Ranitomeya variabilis - 1*1Y*Ranitomeya reticulata - 1*1Y*Ranitomeya benedicta - 1*1Y*Ranitomeya variabilis - borja ridge*YRanitomeya vanzolinii:5Yes - acrobats!ok


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

In the 'climbers' column, all boxes should read 'Y'. Maybe a distinction between 'vertical walkers' and 'acrobatic show offs' or something might be useful. 

_R. vanzolinii_: Loudness 5; acrobats; groups: OK. _R. flavovitta_ is probably the same.

_R. sirensis_: groups: Y, any number.

R. leucomelas: acrobats; groups: OK.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I have not seen any real desire to climb from any of my Ameerega groups. They'll go up "ramps" but I've never seen any of them doing what I would consider climbing.


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## ctharnettnz (Dec 25, 2021)

LeafDudes said:


> I'm trying to decide which species to go with for my first frogs, I have my Viv built and planted.. have just been letting plants establish and start to settle in. I have added some dwarf white isopods and springtails last week. While i let it settle in a little more i'm trying to decide which darts to go with.
> 
> I'm leaning towards Auratus or leucomelas both are said to do well in groups.
> Slightly leaning towards Auratus as they also have a quiet call (and the viv is beside my work desk in the home office.. meetings. Live streams ect)
> ...


I don't have anything to add about species choice that hasn't already been said. I will say this is one of the coolest vivs I've seen, it looks like you took a giant tree from the rainforest and shrunk it down to scale. 

I saw that your from Kelowna as well so i will just mention that i believe the purple seahorse pet store in rutland carries dart frogs, it might be easier to get something local and skip on shipping an animal.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

LeafDudes said:


> Many saltwater fish are jumpers. Especially wrasses. Have also had tangs and triggerfish take a leap. A good lid is important!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Someone should put together an "official" table like this and have it pinned in the care sheets thread! Just an idea....


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Someone should put together an "official" table like this


Looks like @LeafDudes is in the process.


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## solidsnake (Jun 3, 2014)

This may be off topic, but did you use cork for your background? That wood looks super cool. I can’t tell if it’s cork or some other species. Excellent and unique looking viv!


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

solidsnake said:


> This may be off topic, but did you use cork for your background? That wood looks super cool. I can’t tell if it’s cork or some other species. Excellent and unique looking viv!


Thanks! thats my DIY tree, its coated in coco fiber!


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## solidsnake (Jun 3, 2014)

Excellent work. That thing looks real as hell


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## LeafDudes (10 mo ago)

solidsnake said:


> Excellent work. That thing looks real as hell


Thanks!

well, i think i'm going to go for the "el cope' aparenlty they are fairly bold, should make use of my vertical space and are quiet.. wish me luck!


On a viv update, 3d printed some nice vent frames to go into the top. Ordered some micro mesh to glue in.. and added a 5th misting nozel to get the top of my trree more wet as some of the moss was starting to dry out.

Since moving the humidity sensor tofront right i get a much better reading. now its bouncing from 72-100% humidity.


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