# pumilio with short tongue syndrome?



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I have a pair of pumilio and I think the female in particular is having issues with short tongue syndrome.

They were under the care of a friend for a few months and I think his supplements were nearing expiration. On receiving the frogs back I noticed the female was a bit thin and she would spit out melanogaster fruitflies. She would eat springtails. She also wasn't moving quite as fluidly as the male. I decided to use Repashy Rescuecal in case she hadn't been getting FF's for a while. Whether this helped or not she eventually ate a few FF's and started looking a lot better. I've had them for the last week or so in a aprox 12 x 12 x 12 sweater box vented for dart frogs. Kitty litter/clay substrate and leaflitter. They seemed to be settled in well. 

A few days ago I moved and drove 5 hrs to a new spot. I decided to introduce the pair into a 12 x 12 x 18 exo terra figuring a bit of room to stretch out might not be a bad idea. The female is back however to spitting out FF's-still going for springtails but in the new tank seems a bit harder to feed them to her as in the previous setup she had a spot she would stay in all the time that made feeding springs easy. Now she is all over the tank and the springs often disappear from the feeding station before she gets there. I toyed possibly leaving her in the temp container-OTOH do you think it might help to move her back in there? 

I am ordering Repashy vitamin A supplement and will try powdering the flies and perhaps the springs with it. Is there any liquid Vit A supplement that would be worth trying for frogs suffering from this? I know some places sell turtle eye-drops but they appear to use Beta-carotene as the source for Vit A.

Any thoughts appreciated.


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## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

She will get vit a even if she's spitting them out. Check in after u use the vit a.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If she is actually capturing the prey but then spitting them out, then she doesn't have short tongue syndrome. Short tongue syndrome is where they cannot capture the prey due to a lack of stickiness on the tongue due to changes in the cells that normally produce the mucous. 

You may have a frog that doesn't find the supplement palatable or doesn't prefer the fruit flies... this is why the frog could be concentrating on the springtails.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed: It is tough to tell. She was having trouble grabbing them and if she did her tongue would remain out for a brief moment. I'm wondering if perhaps the reason she likes the springtails is that being smaller they stick easier than the flies. 


Anyone have any ideas why this would occur if not? Simply stress?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

improper supplementation regimen, egg provisioning, tadpole feeding, stress (immune, or otherwise) are all potential reasons for it to occur. 
If you have a vet local to you, you can get a vitamin A in liquid form that can be adminstered to the back of the frog with good therapy results. 

See Richard R. Sim, Kathleen E. Sullivan, Eduardo V. Valdes, Gregory J. Fleming, and Scott P. Terrell (2010) A Comparison of Oral and Topical Vitamin A Supplementation in African Foam-Nesting Frogs (Chiromantis xerampelina). Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine: September 2010, Vol. 41, No. 3, pp. 456-460. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

Dendrobait said:


> Ed: It is tough to tell. She was having trouble grabbing them and if she did her tongue would remain out for a brief moment. I'm wondering if perhaps the reason she likes the springtails is that being smaller they stick easier than the flies.
> 
> 
> Anyone have any ideas why this would occur if not? Simply stress?


Some of my younger leucs do that when they eat dusted flies... I think, based on your description, that the female just doesn't like dusted flies... You could try to feed some non dusted flies and see if they get spit out or not. 
The way I get my frogs to eat the dusted flies is to start off with no dust, and gradually work your way up, dusting slightly more with each feeding.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

In this case I would imagine improper supplementation or stress would be the major 2 contributors-unlikely they were provisioning tadpoles.

The paper is interesting-apparently oral vitamin A supplementation did not help very much? That is very surprising. I will look into finding a local vet to obtain the liquid vitamin A. Does this suggest that oral supplementation alone may not be enough to correct a Vitamin A deficiency?

goof901: She actually ignores undusted FF's-doesn't seem to notice them much. Dusted ones she will occasionally attack but either miss or spit out. She is a full grown adult and was feeding just fine on dusted FF's for the majority of the time I had her.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> The paper is interesting-apparently oral vitamin A supplementation did not help very much? That is very surprising. I will look into finding a local vet to obtain the liquid vitamin A. Does this suggest that oral supplementation alone may not be enough to correct a Vitamin A deficiency?


It really isn't much of a surprise since if the diet doesn't include vertebrates, they are working on a diet that is low in preformed vitamin A. This is one of the reasons why using a diverse variety of carotenoids is important. Also keep in mind that the ability to absorb preformed vitamin A is dependent on fat consumed at the same time as the vitamin supplement. In general, there really isn't anything to indicate that a well supplemented frog is likely to end up with a deficiency in vitamin A. There is also pretty strong anecdotal/empirical evidence that using oral vitamin A does correct vitamin A deficiencies as shown by the changes in spindly leg, fertility and for animals with SLS, reversing the trend of changes in the mucoid cells. 

Where you have an animal that isn't able to feed themselves or are rejecting a dusted feeder that you may have to proceed to using drops in the back. This isn't always ideal as some amphibians can show irritation at the administration site. 
On another anecdotal basis, there are reports that the addition of UVB to an enclosure assisted in getting inappetent frogs to feed so you may want to consider trying it at some point in the future (if you aren't already). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Ed,

Any thoughts on the use of liquid bird vitamins administered by drops to the back? These also contain Vit D3...but do have various other things I am unsure of. 

I am going to try to catch at least the female and move her back into the temp container, and possibly the male as well-if I can do so without causing much stress to the frogs. I haven't noticed him eating much he's been wandering all over the tank. Perhaps since it is more open than the temp tank this is stressful to them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hmm.. I don't have enough information on the potential risks of using the bird vitamins, I'm going to defer to your vet in this case. 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I only managed to get a receptionist but apparently in order for medications to be prescribed by law the animal must be seen at the vets office.

I am torn-is there any benefit for a frog that fits on a dime that could come out of a veterinary exam?(I guess this comes with the vets experience-but a fecal would be a useful thing for this case as well) I think the fact that it is still peace and quiet and feeding on springs is what is keeping it going. I observed it attack and I think manage to down a dusted fly yesterday. However it is definitely less agile than the male, sometimes gets a bit of substrate on it, and not at good weight. 

found on the ARAV site a lady who apparently does a home service so she may be worth contacting.

Another option would be if Repashy Vit A can be dissolved into water. It hasn't arrived yet but I figure this may be worth a try(providing Vit A deficiency is indeed the root issue here).


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Bad news to end this thread. Frog managed to escape from a small crack that is left when the latches to close the box are open-I had been leaving it like that so I could quietly open it and stick flies/springs in. Found her dried on the floor after coming back from some errands and consulting the vet.  Absolutely gutted... Its been a while since I've lost an animal like that and I can't believe I made such a careless mistake that cost this one her life. This girl had been pulling hard and I feel I had a really good chance to save her.  Guess the male is lonely now.

But if you are in the area they lady I talked to(you can find her on the ARAV website) has had previous experience with dendrobatid frogs. She suggested moving this one onto paper towels and trying to offer springs/pinheads in a small dish for her. There was a consideration for tubing if things got worse.


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

Ed said:


> If she is actually capturing the prey but then spitting them out, then she doesn't have short tongue syndrome. Short tongue syndrome is where they cannot capture the prey due to a lack of stickiness on the tongue due to changes in the cells that normally produce the mucous.
> 
> You may have a frog that doesn't find the supplement palatable or doesn't prefer the fruit flies... this is why the frog could be concentrating on the springtails....
> 
> ...


BINGO... well said Ed.. I have seen/experienced this with my own frogs when I over-dust..


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

Dendrobait said:


> Bad news to end this thread. Frog managed to escape from a small crack that is left when the latches to close the box are open-I had been leaving it like that so I could quietly open it and stick flies/springs in. Found her dried on the floor after coming back from some errands and consulting the vet.  Absolutely gutted... Its been a while since I've lost an animal like that and I can't believe I made such a careless mistake that cost this one her life. This girl had been pulling hard and I feel I had a really good chance to save her.  Guess the male is lonely now.
> 
> But if you are in the area they lady I talked to(you can find her on the ARAV website) has had previous experience with dendrobatid frogs. She suggested moving this one onto paper towels and trying to offer springs/pinheads in a small dish for her. There was a consideration for tubing if things got worse.


Sorry to hear this news,... hope you find your male a suitable gal.
Peter Keane


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