# does height influence stocking levels?



## trevoraylett (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi all, totally new to the forum which I am trying to get as much info from as possible as I am also totally new to keeping dart frogs!!
I have one question (there will be many many others) that my searches on the forum don't seem to really answer: What difference (if any) does height make to stocking levels for dart frogs?
The reason for asking is that I will be initially starting with a small set up so that I can gain experience in setting up and maintaining a succesful environment for easier dart frogs and can try out some of the ideas that people have posted about and tryout some of my own ideas but always with the grand prize in mind - I have a particular corner in my lounge that is crying out for a vivarium that would be 19 x 19 x 48 inches high.
I'm well aware of the difficulties of lighting down to those heights and there's no doubt (in my mind) I could make it look spectacular but what would be your recomimendations for the type of dart frog for such a size and how many?
And by the way, can I introduce the frogs on an ongoing basis (ie. When money allows) or is it better to introduce them all at once?
Any advice is very much welcomed and thanks for the forum, it really is a fantastic resource.
Thanks


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## Barry Thomas (Oct 9, 2014)

Welcome to the forum! 

As a new frogger I would suggest you consider D. leucomela's, D. auratata's, or D. tinctorius. The are all very beautiful and unique species of frogs. 

*Tinctoriu*s- 

Pro's-- Large and bold. These are great frogs that will cause you to quickly become addicted to this hobby.
They come in a variety of beautiful morphs and are readily available at affordable prices. 

Con's- They do best in pairs. Even with a well planted vivaria it is nearly impossible to keep more than 3 (2m/1f) without conflict. 
They are primarily terrestrial and will not utilize the addition height of the vivarium as much as many others. 

*Leucomela*- 

Pro's-- A beautiful mid-sized frog that can be housed in groups. A well planted 18x18x48 vivaria could hold a couple pairs of these. 

Con's-- They are not (usually) as bold as the tinctorius. 

*Aurata* 

Pro's- Also a medium sized frog that can be kept in groups. Again you could keep a couple pairs.
They would use a bit more of the vertical space.
Available in a variety of colorful morphs. (but please only keep one morph in the cage. Mixing morphs is discouraged).

Con's- Most are not as bold as the tinctorius. The El Cope locality are said to be very bold, but I have no personal experience with them. 


There are many other species of dart frog that would enjoy a vivarium of the dimensions that you mention, but these are readily available, affordable, and easy to breed. They are more forgiving of mistakes than some other species. 

This is all just my opinion. Good luck whatever you decide.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Phone lost my detailed reply so here is the short version....

What you intend is better for a small group of pumilio or colony of thumbs but I can't in good conscience recommend someone start with those frogs, especially for a new viv builder doing such a large tank with such small frogs. To much chance of build errors or other things going wrong.

Leucs and galacs are the 2 larger species with the biggest rep for climbing. Because of the shear size of the tank and the fact most any dart will climb 12" or more at least occasionally, I'm OK with a few larger frogs in a vert that size. I'd say 3-4 maybe 5 but not withiut seeing the finished vivs. And I stringly suggest good group frogs like the luecs or galacs I mentioned, auratus to a lessor extent because IMO they are closer in their habits to tincs which many of us do not think are fantastic in groups. 

Phyllobates are another option, but I'd go with the vittatus or auroetania in that case, as they are on the smaller end of the spectrum and probably more likely to climb, (ive kept both). I've not kept the larger terribilis or bicolor, but from size and what i understand of their habits probably not the best choice. Of all the frogs I've kept which includes examples from just about every clan in the hobby, Ameerega species seem the least likely to take advantage of the height, so I'd steer you away from those too.

I'd also recommend since you're new, doing a tall viv which can be difficult to light, may not be well versed in plants, and possibly planning on doing something outside the norm, that you definitely do some leaf litter... it just gives you more margin for error. And make the vivwith many levels, perches, hides, probably a few broad leafed plants and travel routes from top to bottom. Not only will doing that probably help ensure it looks cool, but also that it functions well for larger frogs.

Good luck, post pics 



Yes, that was the short version


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## trevoraylett (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks for the responses so far - worry not I will be takng things nice and slow. I have yet to build my smaller vivarium and when I do I will be waiting some months for it to mature before adding frogs - I was certainly planning leucs for this first one. I use to keep reef marines many years ago and know only too well the hazards of jumping in (not literally, I hasten to add!) too soon and rushing things.
That's precisely why I want to start with the smaller one but use my experience with that smaller one to make sure I can incorporate good practise and make a success of the taller on - when I get around to it.
One further question, relating to any set up though (whatever size) remains about introducing the frogs if you are having more than a pair - is all at once as a group better or can you introduce them over time?
Thanks so far, I know there is an awful like to learn!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Oh sorry forgot to answer that question. Generally adding all at once is best. Frogs that grow up together or are added together usually show less aggression it seems. If you do add more frogs later you can try pulling all of them for a day or so and kept separate, then adding them all together. But I try very hard not to pull frogs if i don't have to as it stresses them, and trying to catch several in a short time is difficult and going back again every few minutes or the same day again to try just stresses them out more. 

If I can't catch them all in a couple minutes I catch them over a period of days or weeks and try to make every catch within a minute or 2. If I miss... I let em chill out. Oh and always a good idea to have some temporary containers or spare vivs ready to go if you need to pull frogs or seperate out one that is struggling. Also while raising frogs together can cut down on aggression, young frogs that get out competed and start to show significant size difference will probably benefit from being pulled and raised alone till full size.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

You could stack 2 vivariums on top of each other in that space. 

If you are going to keep a more terrestrial large frog such as most dendrobates then it would be wise to put some significant shelves in the back ground to sort of create multiple floors. 

Personally I would just be more inclined to use a more arboreal thumbnail species in that space.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

That would be a cool tank and honestly I would feel like most larger dart frogs (tinctorius, even leucs) would make no significant use of the vertical space. I would definitely recommend a easy smaller frog, such as anthonyi or beginner Ranitomeya species (amazonica, formerly called ventrimaculatus, or imitators are good starters with several different color types). I know anthonyi and some Ranitomeya species also make great group frogs so you can have a nice group in that big tank to use all of the space. 
Essentially, if you pick a larger terrestrial frog, then tank height has minimal impact on stocking level, but it does impact the stocking level for smaller frogs that will climb more and use that space better.

As far as introducing all at once or separately, I think you're fine either way as long as you aren't working with particularly territorial species. I have found that raising frogs up together from a younger age reduces their aggressiveness as adults, but I have also moved and added adult frogs many times with no problems at all- just be aware of the type of species you have, how established the existing territories are, and be prepared to move things around if problems arise.
Regardless of if you add them at once or staggered, I recommend you quarantine them and get them tested before they go into the final tank so that you can stop any potential problems before it comes down to tearing down the tank and starting from scratch. Also try to get frogs that are from different breeders or unrelated lines to reduce inbreeding if you end up getting the frogs at different times.

Bryan


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

just so I don't misunderstand....are you saying 48 inches high??


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## trevoraylett (Oct 23, 2014)

Judy,
Yes 48 inches high...I do like a challenge!

I think I am going with Bryan's suggestion that a group of anthonyi would make a good choice - they are a reasonable frog for someone new, will make use of the extra height with shelves and planting and will do well in a group.

As for the challenges of dealing with that shape/depth of vivarium well I am already racking up a large number of questions that I hope you and other forum members will be able to help with. I won't post them here, I'll start a new post for each topic if I can't find the answers elsewhere on the forum......so back to this particular topic.. what would you recommend for my 48 inch tall vivarium?

Trevor


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Dave has given you some pretty good advice.

I can't see how Variabilis would be a problem for beginner level.
And I think they would make the most use out of that tank & can be kept in a group as well.

PS ... (Ameerega would definitely be a bad idea).


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Gamble said:


> Dave has given you some pretty good advice.
> 
> I can't see how Variabilis would be a problem for beginner level.
> And I think they would make the most use out of that tank & can be kept in a group as well.
> ...


Thanks, Gamble good to see ya  

Let me clarify... My only concern with some of the easier thumbnails is small size makes them more subseptible to environmental changes, and more prone to escape and/or finding a flaw in a build and getting themselves dead. 

If someone is reasonably competent and confident, then its not a huge deal IMO if they start with a thumb, but I feel like starting with bigger frogs and building a few vivs better prepared me for my first thumbs. People who are unsure of their husbandry and their build skills, should probably take the safest path possible.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Thanks, Gamble good to see ya
> 
> Let me clarify... My only concern with some of the easier thumbnails is small size makes them more subseptible to environmental changes, and more prone to escape and/or finding a flaw in a build and getting themselves dead.
> 
> If someone is reasonably competent and confident, then its not a huge deal IMO if they start with a thumb, but I feel like starting with bigger frogs and building a few vivs better prepared me for my first thumbs. People who are unsure of their husbandry and their build skills, should probably take the safest path possible.


Thanks Dave. Appreciate it. 

I agree with you 100%.
My suggestion is based on the assumption that the OP will be doing their due diligence before making a purchase.


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## trevoraylett (Oct 23, 2014)

So what do you advise between anthonyi and variabilis? Would the anthonyi make use of the height? And is the anthonyi better suited to a newcomer to the hobby? 

I have read a lot about the various frogs and seen advice regarding this frog and that - often conflicting advice which is understandable given all the possible variations in vivarium environments and skill/capability levels of those tasked with looking after them!

What I do want to do is settle on the right frog early on and stick with that so that my research and decision making process reflects the reality of what will be required for that particular type of frog. As ever all input is most welcome.

I've got to admit it's great having all this information available in the forum but it can be a bit overwhelming sometimes - especially when the beginners discussion section runs to something like 530 pages!!
I'm currently wrestling with a question regarding humidity/drip walls/sumps - should I post that in the beginners section also as a separate topic? 

Trevor


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

One thing to consider is call volume. Anthonyi are very loud while variabilis are very quiet. Just something to think about, especially if you live with others.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

trevoraylett said:


> So what do you advise between anthonyi and variabilis? Would the anthonyi make use of the height? And is the anthonyi better suited to a newcomer to the hobby?
> 
> I have read a lot about the various frogs and seen advice regarding this frog and that - often conflicting advice which is understandable given all the possible variations in vivarium environments and skill/capability levels of those tasked with looking after them!
> 
> ...


Anthonyi I've never kept, only remotely been interested in the ones with blue... not so much the others. From what I remember they are good in groups and like epiphytes etc said, Loud. I can't even remember how big they are compared to other darts, so I'll leave it to others to advise you about them.

As for your build question, I'd do another thread, maybe in the parts/construction section. I'll try to make a point of finding it and chime in 

All the info can be overwhelming but if you do a false bottom or leca drainage layer with some kinda pourous substrate divider lime window screen, a substrate mix like ABG that is known to be good, and a glass top with a 1-3" wide strip of ventilation running from one end of the tank to the other, and keep enough water in your false bottom/drainage layer that it keeps the substrate moist between mistings without flooding the tank, have your tank seeded with springtails and isopods, have your fruit fly culturing down... and your're pretty much golden.

On a 48" viv tall/skinny the 1-3" wide passive ventilation strip running along the front probably won't be enough. You wanna do a fan probably, so that's something to research if you haven't already.

This thread might come in handy, and contains link to some good fans at the end of the thread.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...c-filter-foam-fans-vents-ff-lids-etc-etc.html


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## trevoraylett (Oct 23, 2014)

Dave,
Thanks for the input and link - yes I agree a fan will be required - just one slightly bizarre question regarding circulating the air inside the viv - is it better to suck or blow???? 
By that I mean if I have ducting inside the viv is it better to draw air up from the bottom and push it out at the top or the other way round?
As fans form part of my questions about humidity, drip walls and sumps, I'll do as you suggest and post it shortly in the parts construction section.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

trevoraylett said:


> Dave,
> Thanks for the input and link - yes I agree a fan will be required - just one slightly bizarre question regarding circulating the air inside the viv - is it better to suck or blow????
> By that I mean if I have ducting inside the viv is it better to draw air up from the bottom and push it out at the top or the other way round?
> As fans form part of my questions about humidity, drip walls and sumps, I'll do as you suggest and post it shortly in the parts construction section.


Dev30ils and the other guys I think covered pretty much everything in your other thread. For an internally mounted fan it shouldn't really matter. I would just try to make it hit the front glass.. Dev30ils and JP advised against blowing/sucking in outside air, but I've found it works if you use a weak fan or one with a speed control and put it on an interval timer,* however* it might be harder for someone less experienced to "tune" that just right and in a tank that large/tall an internal fan is probably the safe way to go... so it can be done, but their advice is best.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

For lighting, LED's are going to give you the best penetration. Here is a picture of a 40B vert (36") with a quad T5HO vs. a 30 watt LED pendant that my brother made (he's working on more). If you look at the bottom reaches of the tank and the leaves, the difference is very noticeable. These were both taken with identical manual settings. The LED is now on the tank permanently, and we're looking at plant growth under it. So far, the results are very promising.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

anthonyi climb a lot...especially the males who will pick calling posts based on a social hierarchy(the calls are ringing and do carry for a distance, but are pleasant. Expect them to be audible at least a room or two over). They are great beginner frogs-better than any of the Dendrobates IMO because they readily take to large foods...even small juveniles will stuff down bean beetles and the like. With a water section in the front you can get the whole lifecycle going on in a tank easily.


I don't see any issues with a beginner starting with Ranitomeya, particularly the OP who will likely do his research and put out a great build. Any of the ones that do well in group would be a good bet. I think a group of FG amazonica would be neat in a large tank like this...you could probably have dozens of them camped out in big broms out on branches.


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## trevoraylett (Oct 23, 2014)

Dendrobait said:


> anthonyi climb a lot...especially the males who will pick calling posts based on a social hierarchy(the calls are ringing and do carry for a distance, but are pleasant. Expect them to be audible at least a room or two over).


So I am beginning to think that a group of anthonyi might actually be TOO noisy for a vivarium in the lounge???


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I think the call volume is comparable to many cell phones out there-I've kept my group in the bedroom before...nice to wake up to calling. I think it'd be great in the lounge-JMO.


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