# The Undercut (1st viv - sortof)



## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Hello Dendroboard!

I'm Spdybee and this is my first post here. Been lurking for a couple of years now, reading and learning. Since I've started my first real viv I thought I would document the process to share my experiences like so many of you have.
First a little history. I say first real viv because I have kept a few frogs in the past (before finding dendroboard). In high school I had a clown tree frog in a 10g (so cute! but will keep you up at night if in the same room!). In collage I kept my first darts, a pair of Patrica Tincs (honestly not sure if it was a male/female pair though). These were also kept in a 10g. I tried to learn about their care requirements but like I said, I had not discovered dendroboard at the time, so I'm sure I did a lot of things wrong and/or was given bad info. (So sorry little "Sunrise" and "Sunset"!)
After college I switched over to aquariums and set up a freshwater tank. That went well till i got married and we had our first child... The tank was acrylic and got scratched pretty bad. After our second child, I decided to set up another freshwater tank. Tank is a Neo105 by Deep Sea Aquatics. Here are the results when first planted in May 2014










and here is a recent shot from May 2016










After that I wanted to get back into dart frogs. But first the wife and kids wanted White's Tree frogs. So i technically set up this first viv, for them. Tank is an Exo Terra 24x18x36.
Started summer of 2015, took a break, and recently got in planted in spring 2016.










Unfortunately we have had a hard time locating a good source for white's (kids would like to be able to see them and pick out their own) so tank does not have any inhabitants yet.
So while waiting, I've gone ahead and started the construction of my dart frog viv! Here is a picture of the planning stage from June of 2015 as a preview.










more to follow!


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

So as you will see this is a pretty ambitious project for someone who is fairly new to keeping dart frogs. However, I'm a firm believer in the motto: if its worth doing, its worth doing right. And now that I have found all of you I'm much more confident that I will actually be able to do things Right!

Planned inhabitants are a group of Phyllobates Vittatus, qty not determined yet. The layout idea for this tank is to have a tree stump with roots hanging down over an undercut bank with a small stream/waterfall running by. (I know, beginner + waterfeature = ???? However I really want it, so I have done a lot of research. Take a look at what I've designed before judging, but if you see problems please let me know!) Tank is an Exo Terra 36x18x24. Here is a picture of the planning foam stage moved into the Exo. I had found a third piece of driftwood by this time, the root coming off the left of the stump.










After having mocked up a model with foam it was time to start construction for real. Having used egg crate in my aquarium build I was hesitant in trying to use it for such an unusual shape and the undercut bank I had designed. It seemed like it would be very hard to get it to work. What I decided to use instead was sheets of Matala (pond filter material). This is very easy to cut with any razor blade type utility knife, and i was able to cut the curved shapes very easily. I then stacked in in layers the same as my foam model.










Next I started stacking pieces of slate to form the stream/waterfall leaving the front right corner to create a small pond area. Hoping the vittatus will deposit tadpoles in the pond eventually. Also in this picture is another piece of driftwood. This one does not match the others in appearance as closly but i think this will work ok, as it is coming out of the background (as if from a different tree) and not part of the stump. What do you guys think about this piece of driftwood? Think it looks alright?


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

So having got the basic shape of the waterfall planned out, it was time for the scariest part of the build. Drilling holes in the bottom of the Exo Terra! I read Pumillo's guide on the forums here (excellent), watched a couple video's on youtube, bought the diamond hole saw drill bits and this guide that I got from Bulk Reef Supply










Then I just went for it. No practice holes or anything, just do it! And the results......











YES! Success! Then I had to drill holes in the stand for the plumbing. Here's a pic of the bulkheads installed in the tank.










Then it was time to make sure there were no leaks, and get a preview of the stream/waterfall. The idea is that the water will flow through the matala to the overflow. Then it flows down the drain pipe where I have a gate valve that I can use to adjust the flow until I have a full suction which will silence the drain. Then the water gets pumped back up and into the tank. Should the drain ever get clogged or for any reason the water is not draining fast enough, the water will rise unit it goes over the top of the bulkhead with the added piece (the upper bulkhead in the picture above) where it will then drain. This bulkhead does not have a valve so no restriction on water drainage, plus if its ever being used, i'll be able to hear it so I can fix whatever is wrong with the primary drain. I believe this is called a Herbie design but I'm not 100% sure. Some of you with reef keeping backgrounds may be able to confirm, or correct me.


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## MasterT (Jun 7, 2016)

This is looking great, I will be watching this closely. I am starting my first 3 vivs all kinda at the same time, I have a 10 gallon, 29 I'm converting to a vert, and a 55 aquarium. I hope that I can either find some good drift wood I can disinfect, or a good bonus check so I can splurge on my tanks!

Please stay on this thread it looks like it will be amazing!


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

Nice to see someone else using matala. Such a great material for a drainage layer and very easy to work with . I'm never making a false bottom again after using that stuff.


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## cowman345 (Jun 22, 2016)

Viv is looking great, spdybee...  don't mean to hijack the threat, but i have a question about your matala. 

I'm still new to the world of vivariums, never heard of using matala - my guess is that you can just eliminate drainage material and egg-crate w/screen and all that? 

Does matala ever get cruddy and accumlate stuff that needs to be cleaned out - like a filter sponge does? Does it support any weight? I suppose you're just gonna pile the substrate layer on top of it, right?


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

@MasterT - Good luck on your builds. Hopefully you will learn something useful from my thread, either something to try or something definately NOT to do 

@jturner - I'm really liking the matala also. Its the Great Stuff foam thats giving me fits now. More on that later.

@cowman345 - The Matala does indeed replace the drainage material or egg-crate that would otherwise be used. However, I think you will still need to use the screening material to prevent your substrate from falling through. Matala comes in various "pore" sizes or how tight the weave of the material is. In a pond filter application you would use multiple sizes getting finer as you go for more thorough cleaning. For our purposes, most people use the largest weave or pore size which is black in color. It is too open to really collect crud on it, but on the same hand because its so open your substrate would fall right through. It is however surprisingly firm and will support a good bit of weight. You can crush it if you try but you do have to try. I have tried standing on some of mine (I don't recommend you try this on a piece you plan to use, I had some scraps) and it held my weight with minimal crushing, UNLESS i dig a heal in. By putting more weight on less surface area it crushed more easily. One thing to note, if you do crush it, it doesn't really spring back, its not a foamy material. Here is a picture that shows how open the weave is.










I plan to put fiberglass screening in place where I will have substrate. Here is a closeup picture from my wife's tank that shows the matala, then the screen on top holding the substrate in.


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Work has continued on the vivarium. After a lot of foaming and carving the main portion of the bank is looking pretty good to me.



















However, the background is not going so well. Because the plumbing is already connected I didn't want to take it apart in order to lift the tank off and lay it down, so I was hoping to be able to make the background outside the tank and then silicone it in afterwards. My attempt to spray greatstuff foam into a box of the appropriate size failed miserably. I put parchment paper down so I could lift the background off after it dried, but it seems with nothing to hold on to the foam pulled in on itself as it dried and sort of "curled". Foam was originally all the way to the edges of the box in the pic below.










This picture shows the back, where you can really see the curling.










So then I found the original exo terra background, cut it to size and thought I would just cover it with silicone and substrate...










...until i did some re-reading on here, and saw the posts about styrofoam and endocrine disrupters, and remembered why I had taken the background out of the tank when I first got it a year ago! So I'm still working on a plan for the background...


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Perhaps all i need for the background is more matala and MOAR FOAM!!










*please note, there is not actually any more foam in this picture yet. Just thinking.


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## KP3 (Nov 15, 2015)

Awesome start man, love the bank!


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## inka4040 (Oct 14, 2010)

Mellowvision on this site showed me a neat trick when he helped me with the background for my orchid tank. 

Use some eggcrate to provide internal structure for the foam background. Zip tie that down to a piece of plywood with parchment in between, and go to town with the foam. That will help keep it flat through the curing process, and give you a nice solid base to carve and trim the background on. 


Gorgeous tanks! Can't wait to see how this turns out


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## cowman345 (Jun 22, 2016)

spdybee said:


> ... @cowman345 - The Matala does indeed replace the drainage material ...


Sold! Thanks for the great info, and pics. Matala is gonna work out great for my upcoming build.

update: yikes, the price on this stuff! Maybe I'll stick with egg crate lol


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

There's no turning back now! Painted the bank and the pond area but didn't like the color. Too light/bright brown. My wife called it "pudding" brown. Ended up putting a layer of "bronze" (read green/brown) silicone down in the pond area and think it looks great. Like mud. Then i siliconed the layer of rocks that fit under the undercut part of the bank.










Then I used some clear silicone to put down some screen where the lower planting area will be.










Then I worked on fly proofing the front vent. I siliconed some screen to the removable portion and cut it along the red line in the picture. This created a problem though when I put it back in because there was a space where flies might be able to get in along that seam where the red line is. I ended up just running some more silicone along that seam after I put the removable piece back in. Should be fruitfly proof now but still allow airflow, though at a reduced rate due to the screening.


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Then I mixed up some more paint that was a bit closer to the color of the "bronze" silicone, although I wasn't able to get it as dark. I painted it over the old color of the bank. I think it will work ok. You can see in the pic the old color in the round hole where the driftwood fits in.










And as of today, I've put it in the tank. The silicone is drying on this right now to hold the bank in place as well and the next few rocks for the stream/waterfall.










Starting to get really nervous with each step now, don't want to mess something up at this stage!


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Pretty cool! Just like some others said, I haven't seen many people use matala before! Maybe I should try it next time! It's kind of like black ramen noodles isn't it!


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Maybe if you left them out and they got really hard and crunchy.


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## zachmaynard (Jul 16, 2016)

Looking good so far!

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## Leuklover (Jul 18, 2016)

It's looking great!!!


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

OK here it is. The new background now with MORE FOAM!










But why stop there, when you can add even MOAR FOAM!!










And then I painted it with drylock and stuck coco coir on it cause well... I don't actually want it to look like its made of foam. 










Also have nearly all the rocks in place for the stream.










And I siliconed in the screen for the upper planting areas.










Then I switched back to some plumbing work for the mistking system that arrived. That's when I ran into a "small" problem. The opening on the reservoir was too small for me to get my hand inside to attach the bulkhead. Fortunately I have a little helper who came to my rescue!


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Keep the pics and updates coming... this is looking really great!


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## skoram (Apr 20, 2015)

I'm interested to see how this finally turns out as well. Looks like a really great start!


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## zachmaynard (Jul 16, 2016)

I love how the stream looks! 
It's nice having little helpers, my youngest has been the most help. 

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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Background pieces are all in. Seams to be fixed later. All rocks for the stream are in. Plumbing for the waterfall going in now.










Close up of waterfall plumbing


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## zachmaynard (Jul 16, 2016)

What type of connection is that on the end? 

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## zachmaynard (Jul 16, 2016)

Is it an aquarium return nozzle? Looks like just what I need! 

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## flyfshrmn98 (Mar 23, 2012)

zachmaynard said:


> Is it an aquarium return nozzle? Looks like just what I need!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk


Looks like one of the lock line fittings


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Yep its a loc-line flare return nozzle used in aquariums. Then i connected to a loc-line elbow, and then connected to a loc-line to male NPT thread converter.


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## zachmaynard (Jul 16, 2016)

Thanks guys, looking good spdybee.

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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Alright so I did a little experimenting to test the wicking or water transfer abilities of a few ideas i had. On the left side of this picture I painted the foam with tinted drylock and then pressed coco-coir onto the wet paint and let it dry. As seen in the picture, it wicks water like crazy. On the right hand side I covered the foam with a layer of silicone and pressed the coco-coir into that and let it dry. Surprisingly, to me at least, it really resists transferring water. I figured once the coir got wet it would transfer along piece to piece but it hasn't. Picture was taken after about 4 hours, but now after more than 24 hours it looks about the same.









On the back side of the foam I spread some drylock that I had mixed the coco-coir into directly. It also does not seem to transfer water very much. Which IS what I expected.









I'm hoping this will work out very well for me. The background is done with drylock and coco-coir pressed on. Hopefully the water will spread around from the misters and keep things moist enough for moss to grow on the background.
Then I added a new layer to the bank with the coco-coir mixed into the drylock. This helps make it look like real dirt instead of paint I think but should help prevent water from wicking up and over into my substrate. At the very bottom of the banks where they actually meet the stream or pond I will be lining the walls with the bronze silicone, and hope it looks like mud.  

Pic of the bank with the new layer.









Creating the wall on the other side of the stream now. 









Wanted to point out something I learned during all this foaming. Great Stuff, at least the pond and stone kind, takes longer to dry than the can says. It puffs up and gets pretty firm in the time it says. Looks like it does in the picture above. But its NOT done. If you were to cut into it now it wouldn't necessarily be runny or anything (at least not normally. Some of the things I created were pressed between layers of parchment paper with boards and weight on top to keep them flat. These did have spots that were still wet and needed help drying) but they aren't all the way dry. If you cut them, the edge where you cut it will "sink in". You can see what I mean in the first picture of this reply. The top edge of the foam in the experement was originally cut flat with a razor blade. But the foam shrunk some as it continued to dry all the way. I will try to add a picture of the foam in my tank when it is fully dry. It will look a bit like a raisin. If you wait until its all the way dry like that your straight edges are much more likely to remain straight edges.


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Here's an updated picture of the foam. You can see how it has shrunk back some and looks a bit "wrinkled", kind of like a raisin. This is probably ready to be cut into but I will probably wait a bit longer just to be sure.









In the meantime, I've been working on turning this 29 gallon aquarium into my Quarantine Tank. (WHAT!?! A Newb with a QT?!? )

Before:








After:









Working on adding some ventilation to the glass top via the plastic strip in the back.


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## zachmaynard (Jul 16, 2016)

spdybee said:


> Here's an updated picture of the foam. You can see how it has shrunk back some and looks a bit "wrinkled", kind of like a raisin. This is probably ready to be cut into but I will probably wait a bit longer just to be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your hooked on building like me. Lol

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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Progress report:
Carved the lower left bank for the stream.









Mounted the second plumbing line for the fogger and siliconed the stream bank.









Applied more of my "dirt" (drylok + coco-coir mixture) and also completed one of the last big challenges to this build I hope. Making the removable section that will allow me to access the drains should I ever need to.









Matala layers









Top layer









Gap is filled with a silicone "plug". 









Then more "dirt" on top.









FTS of tank as it sits now. After this is completely dry I will probably do a dry run (wet run?) of the stream to make sure water is not leaking anywhere I don't want it to. Then I can work on positioning my mister nozzles and drilling the top.


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## zachmaynard (Jul 16, 2016)

spdybee said:


> Progress report:
> Carved the lower left bank for the stream.
> 
> 
> ...


 Looking good, keep the updates coming! 

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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

Video of the water test on my vivarium


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

It looks cool but you've really cut down the land area quite a bit to the point I wouldn't even put any dart frogs in there. I see your signature says Vitattus but I don't think this is gonna be suited for them much. 
This is why that post Rusty made (which led me here) was posted. 
You viv is a great example of what he was talking about. 
Tanks of this size just shouldn't have water features because you're sacrificing way too much land for something that isn't really even needed. 
Would be great for some fire belly toads though. 
That coco coir on silicone will indeed eventually wick water once it gets wet enough. 
You should redo your test and put dry cococoir on top and wet the sides of the coir wall and watch how the dry coir on top will start getting wet.


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## spdybee (May 24, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> It looks cool but you've really cut down the land area quite a bit to the point I wouldn't even put any dart frogs in there. I see your signature says Vitattus but I don't think this is gonna be suited for them much.
> This is why that post Rusty made (which led me here) was posted.
> You viv is a great example of what he was talking about.
> Tanks of this size just shouldn't have water features because you're sacrificing way too much land for something that isn't really even needed.
> ...


Can you provide any more information on why you think vitattus are not suited for a tank like this? Always looking to learn more about them. 

Also, what would be an appropriate sized tank for a group of 5 vittatus?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

spdybee said:


> Can you provide any more information on why you think vitattus are not suited for a tank like this? Always looking to learn more about them.
> 
> Also, what would be an appropriate sized tank for a group of 5 vittatus?


For 5 vittatus you're looking at something like a 40 breeder. 40 breeder with no water feature. 
There's plenty of sources on here talking about how much land each frog needs is usually 5 gallons per frog. So look up the dimensions of a five and a half gallon tank and times it by 5.
I'm completely astounded that you were planning on putting 5 of them in there you can't even really put two of them in there now. Due to how big your water heater is the Bronx will be confined to the land areas and your land area is about the size of little 5 gallon tank.
Maybe he was making like the corner of water feature and putting the waterfall in that same corner you might have been able to get away with this but your water feature takes up over 60% of the tank.
The only frogs that really need a water feature or benefit from it would be Ameerega.
If you look in the species section of the forum there should be threads about the vittatus species.

Edit: A lot of those care sheets you see posted by kyle are way outdated. I don't see 20 long tank being suited for 5. However that would indeed be a 20 long with NO water feature.


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## skoram (Apr 20, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> For 5 vittatus you're looking at something like a 40 breeder. 40 breeder with no water feature.
> There's plenty of sources on here talking about how much land each frog needs is usually 5 gallons per frog. So look up the dimensions of a five and a half gallon tank and times it by 5.
> I'm completely astounded that you were planning on putting 5 of them in there you can't even really put two of them in there now. Due to how big your water heater is the Bronx will be confined to the land areas and your land area is about the size of little 5 gallon tank.
> Maybe he was making like the corner of water feature and putting the waterfall in that same corner you might have been able to get away with this but your water feature takes up over 60% of the tank.
> ...


I'm a little confused. He posted that he is using an Exo Terra 36 x 18 x 24. The length and width of that tank are the same as a 40 breeder and the height is 6 inches taller. 

Standard Tank Sizes

At any rate, it's a far cry from a 20 long. I do agree however that the water feature seems to take up too much space. From the photos it looks like 75% of the base area will be water.


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## Darrell S (Jan 9, 2011)

Spdybee : Thanks for the posts of your build , it looks really nice , I hope you post more pics of your progress and ideas . Please don't let other peoples negative input cut you to deep or discourage you from the forum , it is only people speaking up when they see something they might disagree with , we have to have thick skin when we go on a public forum . I personally love water features and have them in some of my tanks , they do take up valuable usable dry land and I have had to make some adjustments when I realized how much space couldn't be used for hunting food or not climbing over each other , however my Leucamela's , Vittatus , and Terribilis love to spend hrs. hanging out in the water with their upper body above the water .


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## gzollinger (Aug 22, 2016)

I love it. Maybe work to bridge the water feature to open up the land on the left side of the tank.


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## WZDesigns (Feb 20, 2014)

The tank is looking great! I will definitely be following the progress on this one. 
LOVE the way you arranged the driftwood, looks quite natural. Also really like the water feature, but it does look like it takes up a lot of floor space. Although that may just be the perspective looking at the undercut bank. Perhaps if you posted a top-down view it would better illustrate the available land area for frogs. 
Following what Darrell S said about negative feedback, its true, take everything with a grain of salt. However I’ve read through enough threads here and have lurked around long enough to know that people like Brandon (DragonSpirit1185) really do mean well. They just want facilitate the creation of habitats that will let the frogs thrive. It may sound like they are more concerned about the wellbeing of the frogs than people’s feelings or artistic visions, but they have good reasons to discourage water features in terrestrial frog habitats. And isn’t the purpose of forums such as these to share information and get feedback from those more experienced people about the best ways to care for our pets?
Anyway, truly beautiful build and I’m excited to see what it turns into, but you may want to reconsider the type of inhabitants depending on how prominent the water feature is.


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## KommentBox (Aug 26, 2016)

This looks awesome! I'm just working out the particulars on my water feature and this was very helpful to see, thank you for the post. I'll definitely be following to see how it turns out.


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## kochizzle (Sep 7, 2016)

Hope you guys didn't scare him away... Come back spydy!! Need updates! 


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## calebrez (Dec 9, 2009)

Where did you acquire the pond filter foam? And was it expensive?


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