# Can you mix dart frogs? Also how to build a stream though a tank?



## DARTFROG420 (Apr 29, 2009)

i'm new to the dart frogs, i always dive head first in murky waters if you know what i mean. i just got four azureus and two patricia tinc. if the tank is large enough is it alright to mix them. they are pretty small right now, and i have them in a small terrarium at the moment. while i build up my 120 gallon tank.. also does anybody know the best way to build a stream in a tank. have it start in one corner and kind of move around the tank like a snake. whether it be fiberglass or slate.. or something different. i've seen alot of videos on you tube of other tanks done that way. i'm looking to do a tank full of live plants with a stream running through it. any help would be appreciated.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well i will say this, very controversial post for your first one, welcome aboard!!


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

I won't get into the mixing, I'm sure you'll catch enough slack about it. To do the stream, I have seen people cut pvc in half, heat it up so it is pliable, and bend it to make the stream. Then, silicone rocks to it. 
Scott


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

for your own sake please type your first question in the search first. good luck and welcome.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/10507-mixing-101-a.html


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

no1 wants to touch this topic all i will say is... its not considered good practice by the majority of the keepers/breeders


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

DARTFROG420 said:


> i'm new to the dart frogs, i always dive head first in murky waters if you know what i mean. i just got four azureus and two patricia tinc. if the tank is large enough is it alright to mix them. they are pretty small right now, and i have them in a small terrarium at the moment. while i build up my 120 gallon tank.. also does anybody know the best way to build a stream in a tank. have it start in one corner and kind of move around the tank like a snake. whether it be fiberglass or slate.. or something different. i've seen alot of videos on you tube of other tanks done that way. i'm looking to do a tank full of live plants with a stream running through it. any help would be appreciated.


HOLY CRAP IF I SAW YOU IN PERSON (and you were a woman) I'D KISS YOU!!! I JUST THOUGHT OF HOW AWESOME A STREAM WOULD BE IN MY 48 LONG!!! THANK YOU!!!

Also, from everything I've read its pretty big taboo to mix em. Because for one, they don't live long, two, can't really trade them because what would you call them? Would the consumer know about them? And third, would YOU know how to care for them? So, it doesn't seem like a very smart thing to do, tough luck.

But, I'd assume that if they are all males (not females because they will fight) then it may be ok, just an assumption tho, make sure first.


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm pretty sure, almost 100% sure that I mentioned the stream idea in your post about your tank at least 2 times lol.
I directed you to black jungle for how to's on doing it and ect...
Not sure though but I think I mentioned it 



jelly_shrimp said:


> HOLY CRAP IF I SAW YOU IN PERSON (and you were a woman) I'D KISS YOU!!! I JUST THOUGHT OF HOW AWESOME A STREAM WOULD BE IN MY 48 LONG!!! THANK YOU!!!
> 
> Also, from everything I've read its pretty big taboo to mix em. Because for one, they don't live long, two, can't really trade them because what would you call them? Would the consumer know about them? And third, would YOU know how to care for them? So, it doesn't seem like a very smart thing to do, tough luck.
> 
> But, I'd assume that if they are all males (not females because they will fight) then it may be ok, just an assumption tho, make sure first.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Ziggi said:


> I'm pretty sure, almost 100% sure that I mentioned the stream idea in your post about your tank at least 2 times lol.
> I directed you to black jungle for how to's on doing it and ect...
> Not sure though but I think I mentioned it


You're just out for a kiss! Jealousy will get you nowhere Ziggi .


And to the poster: I don't really think that I need to say any more about mixing but I will agree that if you go to Black Jungle's website they have an excellent photo journal with instructions on building a stream in your vivarium. Good luck and welcome to the board .


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

DARTFROG420 said:


> i'm new to the dart frogs, i always dive head first in murky waters if you know what i mean. i just got four azureus and two patricia tinc. if the tank is large enough is it alright to mix them. they are pretty small right now, and i have them in a small terrarium at the moment. while i build up my 120 gallon tank.. also does anybody know the best way to build a stream in a tank. have it start in one corner and kind of move around the tank like a snake. whether it be fiberglass or slate.. or something different. i've seen alot of videos on you tube of other tanks done that way. i'm looking to do a tank full of live plants with a stream running through it. any help would be appreciated.


Well since no one else wants to really touch the mixing topic, I'll start I guess... 
You should first read through that mixing 101 link that bobberly1 posted, and also do a search on this site like suggested above. You should come up with lots of helpful (and touchy) mixing topics. 
I'll do a quick summary here: mixing is not usually recommended for a beginning hobbyist (or even experienced hobbyists), especially not with the species that you have. The azureus and patricias can breed, creating a "hybrid," which is something that most in the dart frog hobby try to avoid. Not only is the hybridization an issue, but also the fact that those species can be very aggressive, and should be kept in pairs. 

I think you would be better off in the long run getting three smaller tanks (maybe 20's) or even dividing the 120 in half or thirds, so you could put a pair in each tank. In the end that would be much better for the frogs.

Hope that helps,


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

I gotta be honest I was sorta hoping for a kiss from someone haha 
Not jealous, sad that he didn't see my comment when i said it...feels like I wasted precious words lol.

And yes the black jungle thread is great, my next viv will have a stream in it so keep yours eyes open for construction journals 



Marinarawr said:


> You're just out for a kiss! Jealousy will get you nowhere Ziggi .
> 
> 
> And to the poster: I don't really think that I need to say any more about mixing but I will agree that if you go to Black Jungle's website they have an excellent photo journal with instructions on building a stream in your vivarium. Good luck and welcome to the board .


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## alluringeli (Apr 20, 2009)

From what ive read and was told it is frowned apon if you mix.... welcome a board dendroboard and good luck....


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

Ziggi said:


> I'm pretty sure, almost 100% sure that I mentioned the stream idea in your post about your tank at least 2 times lol.
> I directed you to black jungle for how to's on doing it and ect...
> Not sure though but I think I mentioned it


You did, but this time I was toiling through posts in a "brainstorm" mode and when I read "stream" immediatly I invisioned a thin stream going from left to right going around a brom or 2, and I was all "woah, that'd be freaking awesome".


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

Also, I thanked you Ziggi, and you helped in more aspects than just the stream idea (I'm definately doing it!) and any comments on my theory of in you're going to house diff species, than only go w/ males to avoid breeding (and because they won't fight, there are exeptions) but wouldn't that work?


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

jelly_shrimp said:


> Also, I thanked you Ziggi, and you helped in more aspects than just the stream idea (I'm definately doing it!) and any comments on my theory of in you're going to house diff species, than only go w/ males to avoid breeding (and because they won't fight, there are exeptions) but wouldn't that work?


You have to take into account that even a tank full of males will have a hierarchy. There will be dominant animals and submissive animals. There is no safe bet there. The dominant animals may not act overtly aggressive, but they may simply out complete the subs. So while you avoid cross-bred animals, it doesn't really give each animal enough space to establish their own territory, as they would in the wild. Males would avoid each other when at all possible.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

thetattooedone said:


> You have to take into account that even a tank full of males will have a hierarchy. There will be dominant animals and submissive animals. There is no safe bet there. The dominant animals may not act overtly aggressive, but they may simply out complete the subs. So while it you avoid cross-bred animals, it doesn't really give each animal enough space to establish their own territory, as they would in the wild. Males would avoid each other when at all possible.


Then I stand corrected, but I still have one more question. There are some breeds that can have 1 female and multiple males correct? Would it work if you just went with those species? Or would we still run into the out-competing issue?


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

There are some species that are generally more tolerant than others. I have a 2.2 group of R. Amazonicus that do fine in a 30 hex. This species is widely considered communal, but I still see the males wrestle from time to time. I also have a 29 gallon horizontal that houses 0.2 Microspot auratus (again, a species that is thought to be more tolerant in a group setting). They've been together for 2 years and while both are doing great, I still see the dominant female "push" the sub female around from time to time. Personality also comes into play. So while you can generalize that some species are better "group" frogs than others, that doesn't mean that you won't get a frog that can't tolerate same sex competition. I think it's heightened when breeding is induced, but that doesn't mean it'll be nonexistent in the absence of the opposite sex (like my Auratus). Dart frogs in general are just wired that way. They set up territories and defend them vigorously. If you're going to mix species or you want to have a group of Tincs, just be prepared. People commonly think that if they don't see outright aggression then their frogs must be getting along. Not true. It could be very subtle. But the outcome is always the same. If there isn't any outright physical damage, the stress caused by the situation more often than not leads to the death of the weaker frog. It usually starts with being out competed for food and hiding spots. Those weaker frogs would be able to move on and find a suitable range in the wild, but in the glass box we keep them in, that usually spells death. They can't escape their bully and ultimately they starve or get overrun with parasites (if present). So regardless of the species, you have to be very careful when keeping groups. Make sure they have adequate space and watch for any signs of incompatability. It will be more easily accomplished with species that are considered "communal", but pairs are always best with the space restrictions that we have to work with.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

VERY well stated.


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## DARTFROG420 (Apr 29, 2009)

thank you everyone for you input and help. i thought that these boards sent you an email to notify when someone replys to your post. but never got any. i will definitely check out black jungle's website. and thanks for the heads up on mixing them too. like i said i'm new to dart frogs, and i always jump in head first. usually getting way ahead of myself. also another qeustion i have is with making backgrounds. one person told me to use great stuff pond and stone foam, is that what everybody else uses or is there a better way to do it. i want an elaborate backround and tank with lots of plants and rocks. if there is a website showing step by step that would help alot. thanks again to everybody.


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

Lol every time someone ask about mixing folks frown and avoid it.

A simple NO will do.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thetattooedone said:


> They set up territories and defend them vigorously. If you're going to mix species or you want to have a group of Tincs, just be prepared. People commonly think that if they don't see outright aggression then their frogs must be getting along. Not true. It could be very subtle. But the outcome is always the same. If there isn't any outright physical damage, the stress caused by the situation more often than not leads to the death of the weaker frog. It usually starts with being out competed for food and hiding spots. Those weaker frogs would be able to move on and find a suitable range in the wild, but in the glass box we keep them in, that usually spells death. They can't escape their bully and ultimately they starve or get overrun with parasites (if present). So regardless of the species, you have to be very careful when keeping groups. Make sure they have adequate space and watch for any signs of incompatability. It will be more easily accomplished with species that are considered "communal", but pairs are always best with the space restrictions that we have to work with.


Often space is not the issue but resources.. and with respect to territories if you look at how these territories play out in the wild, there is often significant overlap in the territories without issue as noted above this is in part because the frog can get away, is in part due to how much space is available but is also in part due to where the resources are located in the territories. Hides, several feeding stations and sight barriers can go a long way to fixing some of these issues. 

Now I am an old timer when it comes to some species like D. tinctorius and auratus.. and have worked with them for a very long time (going on something like 17 years now) and back in the "bad old days" it was not uncommon for people (myself included) to keep groups of tinctorius or auratus together with great success and little to no reports of the issues seen anecdotally and reported today. There are difference between how it was done back then and now... (not saying it was better, just different).. and that may play a part in it. 
Density of the group can play a significant part in reducing stress by spreading out the aggression.. if the population is dense enough then the frogs can't adequately defend the same size territory and territorial size decreases. If the resources are dense enough, then the defended regions also decrease... so increasing the density of both of these can reduce aggression and allow for greater densities of the frogs (but this takes experience to learn how to do...). Higher densities do occur in nature with the frogs depending on resources etc.. for one example, one of the frogs known to be very aggressive in captivity is O. pumilio yet look at the naturally occuring density in that one picture in Lotter's book Poison Frogs.. the fact that we have not been able to replicate that sort of density tells me we as a group are still doing something wrong (but I digress here...) 
Back in the day it was not unheard of people maintaining groups of tinctorius (four to six) in 20 gallon long aquaria for a decade or more without the issues reported today in small groups and with successful reproduction and good longevity.... 

There has been a swing away from groups due to problems that have arisen in the care.. but that doesn't mean groups are not possible... just that something has changed. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MaxB22 said:


> Lol every time someone ask about mixing folks frown and avoid it.
> 
> A simple NO will do.


Keep dreaming...lol


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## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

I use Great Stuff, Gaps and Cracks... Its cheeper and works just as well as the pond one... Look at the Blackjungle web site it shows you EVERYTHING on building a background!


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

MaxB22 said:


> Lol every time someone ask about mixing folks frown and avoid it.
> 
> A simple NO will do.


A simple no would not do becasue that would be incorrect. There are some additional challenges and requirements and should be attempted by those with a good amount of experience but it is possible.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> Now I am an old timer when it comes to some species like D. tinctorius and auratus.. and have worked with them for a very long time (going on something like 17 years now) and back in the "bad old days" it was not uncommon for people (myself included) to keep groups of tinctorius or auratus together with great success and little to no reports of the issues seen anecdotally and reported today.
> Ed


I should clarify this... the message I intended was that groups of the individual species were kept together.. I hadn't meant for this to be addressed towards mixing different dendrobatids together.. 
On the subject of mixing, I have said my piece before and didn't see a need to repeat myself. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

MaxB22 said:


> Lol every time someone ask about mixing folks frown and avoid it.
> 
> A simple NO will do.


I would say a simple NO would be neither 'helpful' nor complete, and would likely not dissuade anyone [as intended].

We should be willing [as frog community members] to help someone new and enthusiastic make better choices, or the hobby will have to deal with the consequences later.

To the OP, I for one do not have any mixed species, mixed morph, mixed locale, etc tank set ups at the moment or in the past. Not that I wont ever, but....I do feel that I know enough to anticipate that it might not end well if I tried.

Best,

and let us know how that monster tank turns out. Personally an army of tricolor in there would make my eyes water!


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

sports_doc said:


> I would say a simple NO would be neither 'helpful' nor complete, and would likely not dissuade anyone [as intended].
> 
> We should be willing [as frog community members] to help someone new and enthusiastic make better choices, or the hobby will have to deal with the consequences later.
> 
> ...


Would you still mix species if only one person answered just saying "no" I know I'd still do it.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

All this is a rather complex topic, and it always seems to create a thread in the beginners section which is really not intended for indepth discussions.

First comment I have is welcome to the site and hobby.

Second is please check out our search feature as there have been numerous threads on this topic and in general mixing species is not recommended. There are more negatives than positives and while it can be done the majority of the hobby is very passionate against it.

Some quick reasons:
Aggression which may go unnoticed causing deaths
Hybrids can possibly destroy current lines in the hobby

Some examples... 
Would you lock your pitbull in a pen with your Chihuahua and expect them to get along?
Would you put a piranha in with a gold fish and expect nothing to happen?

These may seem drastic but in reality no different than putting frogs from different countries or regions in the same tank and expecting them to be ok. Sure if you had a living room sized tank they may be fine, and please note that many Zoos that do this do it with juveniles and not adults for these very reasons. Frogs can be impressively aggressive, and that's within their own species. I have seen a male imitator hold on to another male until it was about dead.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

kyle1745 said:


> All this is a rather complex topic, and it always seems to create a thread in the beginners section which is really not intended for indepth discussions.
> 
> First comment I have is welcome to the site and hobby.
> 
> ...


I agree, do check the search thing because there's at least one topic about this every 2 weeks.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I have been asked to provide the information that will help make the setup of a mixed species tank possible and succesful by several members. I am by no means an expert and offer this solely on the experience I have had with my setup and with the experience I have had helping a handful of others with their setups. I understand that it is of the opinion of many that this should not be spoken about but this topic comes up weekly and it is necessary for ALL the information to be provided not just what is of the majority opinion. I ask that you respectfully treat my opinion as I treat yours and again I have been asked to offer this to the forum. I ask rather then ding me with negative reputation comments based on a difference of opinion that you PM me and we can discuss this in a civil mannor. 

1. Speak to as many breeders as possible. Tell them what you would like to achieve. When I started my tank many years ago I spoke with many different breeders about mixing different frogs because there was not much information on the net. I eventually bought all my frogs from three different breeders that are currently sponsors of this forum(I have 2 of the 3 receipts from when I purchased the frogs). All of them offered me suggestions on how to introduce the frogs, what to watch out for, how I should best go about feeding them, and so on. They did warn me that it is easier to setup a single species tank but none of them tried to pursuede me not to try. Without their help I probably would have failed. 

2. After gathering the best possible information, construct your terrarium. Obviously the bigger the better depending on how many frogs you are planning. Be creative. A well planted vivarium gives the frogs many places to hide and they will be more relaxed and at home. I also setup 2 feeding stations in mine to try and help reduce competition for food. This happened to not be a need in my case becasue all my frogs tend to feed together. Always have your terrarium ready before ordering frogs. 

3. Be prepared to have enough food on hand. Make sure you are comfortable with your ability to make fruit fly cultures. I typically have 3 cultures per frog at any given time. Once you are confident that you have a stable supply of food you can start looking for your frogs.

4. Purchase young, healthy frogs from a reputable breeder(the same breeder if at all possible). Try to introduce them as close to the same time as possible. All of my frogs were introduced within a three week period. At a young age and introduction at the same time, there will be less tendency for the frogs to establish a "territory" and they will have the opportunity to grow up as a unit.

5. Aggression:
Have a couple 10g tanks setup in case some of the frogs are not compatible. As with any frogs purchased as juveniles, there may be a tendency for aggression as the frogs mature. Even in same species setups you would need to have a backup plan in case of aggression. If you find you have a frog that does not do well with others it may need to be removed and another home found. If the aggressive frog is not removed it could harm another frog or cause stress that could harm the other frogs health. Again, this can also happen in a same species setup. However, it is a more common accurance in a multi species setup then in a single species setup.

Putting two different species of dart frogs together is not like putting piranha in with gold fish. Dart frogs are not programmed to eat other dart frogs. Piranha's main food source is other fish. This type of aggresion is like apples and oranges.

6. Observation is the key. I also have a few saltwater reef setups. I watch my reefs. I watch my corals, fish, and inverts to see if something is just not clicking. Maybe my yellow tang is not getting along with my achilles tang or my hammer corals is stinging my colt coral. This is the same focus I take with my frogs. Are they all eating, are any of the frogs be bullies, do any of the frogs look skinny, do the frogs interact or are they always hiding.. These types of observations will help determine if the mixed community is working or if some change needs to be made.


In conclusion, I'm not saying my way is perfect and it will work for you. What I am saying is that it has worked for me and several others that I personally know and have heard many accounts of others it is working for. This is simply what I have experienced. I am sharing this with you so if you choose to try that you have all the information available and are not simply being told that it cannot be done based on someone's opinion that has no experience with even trying to setup a mixed species tank because when they started someone told them it was not possible.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> I have been asked to provide the information that will help make the setup of a mixed species tank possible and succesful by several members. I am by no means an expert and offer this solely on the experience I have had with my setup and with the experience I have had helping a handful of others with their setups. I understand that it is of the opinion of many that this should not be spoken about but this topic comes up weekly and it is necessary for ALL the information to be provided not just what is of the majority opinion. I ask that you respectfully treat my opinion as I treat yours and again I have been asked to offer this to the forum. I ask rather then ding me with negative reputation comments based on a difference of opinion that you PM me and we can discuss this in a civil mannor.
> 
> 1. Speak to as many breeders as possible. Tell them what you would like to achieve. When I started my tank many years ago I spoke with many different breeders about mixing different frogs because there was not much information on the net. I eventually bought all my frogs from three different breeders that are currently sponsors of this forum(I have 2 of the 3 receipts from when I purchased the frogs). All of them offered me suggestions on how to introduce the frogs, what to watch out for, how I should best go about feeding them, and so on. They did warn me that it is easier to setup a single species tank but none of them tried to pursuede me not to try. Without their help I probably would have failed.
> 
> ...


Sorry Kyle...but damn...that is the LARGEST and MOST informational post I have ever read, with the exeption of the care sheets on this site.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

Anyway, nobody answered my question on the PVC stream idea...


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I'm not sure this offers much of anything other than general norms for keeping dart frogs. Fact remains that it can be done but it is not ideal. 

Please explain how you would observe stress which can lead to sickness and etc. Frogs are susceptible to disease and etc after shipping and being moved into a new home, and you want to keep them in this state which can go unnoticed until it is too late? How would one watch the frogs 24x7 for aggression? Just becuase you do not see it does not mean its not there.

Fact remains it is irresponsible to offer this a optimal solution to people new to the hobby as it does not give them the best chances for success and can turn people away from the hobby.

These are the reasons so many people are against it, and we are talking about people with 10-30 years experience not someone who has had frogs for a year or so. This is why so many people do not post or contribute to sites such as this. Because people who have 5 minutes of experience want to argue and call people out with "0" facts to back up their claims. Its simply a waste of time to repeatedly say what has been said 100 times and the fact remains. Mixing is not a good idea.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

Kyle, please sticky this topic so people who have this same question (WILL HAPPEN) can just look at this and go, hmmm...no don't think I should.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

kyle1745 said:


> I'm not sure this offers much of anything other than general norms for keeping dart frogs. Fact remains that it can be done but it is not ideal.
> 
> Please explain how you would observe stress which can lead to sickness and etc. Frogs are susceptible to disease and etc after shipping and being moved into a new home, and you want to keep them in this state which can go unnoticed until it is too late? How would one watch the frogs 24x7 for aggression? Just becuase you do not see it does not mean its not there.
> 
> ...



Please explain to me how one observes stress in a group of 5 or 7 auratus in a species only tank. In the exact same mannor as I had stated, by observation. You are correct, noone can watch their frogs 24/7 so does that mean we should all stop keeping frogs because we just will never know if they are getting along 100% of the time. Obviously not or there would not be a need for this discussion. But a consistent schedule of observation over a period of time will indeed offer enough evidence as to whether or not your frogs are in good health.

Fact remains, that it is almost a weekly occurance of a new person to the hobby asking if frogs can be mixed. The real question is how many do not ask? and how many try without any framework of how to be successful? Would it not be more beneficial to inform everyone that if you decide to do this here are the steps that will offer you the most success and maybe in the process, especially with a new person coming into the hobby, they might just come to the conclusion that maybe I'll start off with a single species because it is not quite as difficult. For those that have been on this forum for the past few years you have probably noticed alot of the newbies never come back because most of the posts get out of control and their reputation gets blasted with negative reputation strikes.

What is irresponsible is not giving all the information that is avaialable. I have had dart frogs for nearly 10 years(Not the one year or so it has been made out to be). I can show receipts from vendors on this forum where my mixed tank frogs were purchased from. I have been a member of this site since March of 2006. So no, I am not an expert and have never claimed to be but I do have alot of experience keeping frogs.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Hi Jel...

Where did you get your frogs.....10 years ago?

BTW.....don't blame me for your little red hat returning.....wasn't me.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> What is irresponsible is not giving all the information that is avaialable. I have had dart frogs for nearly 10 years(Not the one year or so it has been made out to be). I can show receipts from vendors on this forum where my mixed tank frogs were purchased from. I have been a member of this site since March of 2006. So no, I am not an expert and have never claimed to be but I do have alot of experience keeping frogs.


Actually if one cares to read through the various threads and care sheets, there is a lot of good information that can enable someone to succeed with a mixed species enclosure. I've been keeping herps for over 30 years now and have worked with dendrobatids for more than 17 years, including multispecies enclosures. When working with territorial species such as dendrobatids, one of the issues is that animals that have a similar body shape and behavior can trigger territorial aggressions requiring attention to details that will mitigate or remove the aggression (not possible in all species). Until one gains experience with designing and setting up enclosures to the point where one understands the function and use of resource placement and visual barriers as well as the behavior of the frogs, you really can't provide a "recipe" that will enable successful multispecies enclosures. Yes it is possible to successfully set up and maintain multispecies enclosures..... 

Some thoughts..


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Hi Jel...
> 
> Where did you get your frogs.....10 years ago?
> 
> BTW.....don't blame me for your little red hat returning.....wasn't me.


Hey no problem. I must just be destined to where the red hat of opinion so I'll just wear it with pride. I just wish people would choose to use the PM option to discuss rather then send me rude comments and discredit the reputation system. I will thank those that have almost gotten me back to green again!!

The frogs I have currently in my mixed tank I have had since 7/8/2002 and 7/1/2002. I purchased 5 Captive bred Panamanian D. Auratus from Saurian enterprises and 2 Leucs/5 D Auratus(metallic green) from Vanishing Jewel. I have the original receipt and credit card receipt from these purchases. I do not have the receipt from when I bought my 4 tincs. I know it was a private breeder but I cannot remember his/her name but it was within a week of the other dates listed. That being said. My current setup is older then I had originally remembered.

Prior to the frogs I have now I had 4 leucs that I purchased sometime around 1997 or 1998. I beleive I purchased them from Strictly Reptiles but it may have been from Glades Herp. I cannot remember. I ordered turtles from one and the frogs from the other. I had those guys about three years and sold them when I moved. They were housed as a single species in a 55g vivarium that had a water pond that my bettas would breed in. It was pretty cool.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

Yeah I wear mine with pride, I speak my mind, and if you don't like it, tough. Freedom of speach, if you ask somebody a question, and don't enjoy the response, who's fault is that.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

How do I check who gave me rep? And what my rep is at now?


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Go to the User CP function at the top of this page. then scroll down to the bottom of that page.

John


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

To respond to the comment specifically about pitbulls...yes, I would. And yes, I would expect them to get along. I'm an old timer when it comes to that breed, and while there are bad apples, most are not. So I disagree with that analogy.

[/QUOTE]
Some examples... 
Would you lock your pitbull in a pen with your Chihuahua and expect them to get along?
Would you put a piranha in with a gold fish and expect nothing to happen?

These may seem drastic but in reality no different than putting frogs from different countries or regions in the same tank and expecting them to be ok. Sure if you had a living room sized tank they may be fine, and please note that many Zoos that do this do it with juveniles and not adults for these very reasons. Frogs can be impressively aggressive, and that's within their own species. I have seen a male imitator hold on to another male until it was about dead.[/QUOTE]


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

There is no good analogy to use when decribing frog aggression, stress and dominance. Dogs and fish behave very differently than frogs. Frogs are frogs and furthermore, dart frogs behave.....most like.......dart frogs!

It is best to just _try_ to describe the many signs of it and to warn against it.

This is what all the older experienced hobbyists are trying to warn against for the youngster noobs who all want "community" vivariums.

Can you adequately describe one frog sitting quietly next to another frog that is sitting there...equally quiet and motionless??

Do you think anything aggressive is going on? They are both next to each other and "getting along nicely", right? 

if you are experienced you may just be able to tell what is a precursor to aggression and dominance and this is exactly how it can start.....quietly.....unexpectedly...quickly.

Then poor feeding and abject stress begins in earnest. A small frog can sucumb in a few *days*.

when experienced hobbyists talk about stress and how mixed species vivs magnify this.....don't respond with "they are gonna do it anyway" and "tell them how to do it so they can have success".

Listen and learn. We are not trying to come down on you and give you bad and negative rep. We DON'T want you to go away either.

We want you to have the maximum chance of success and enjoy the hobby, and we want the frogs to thrive.

Thats all


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

thetattooedone said:


> To respond to the comment specifically about pitbulls...yes, I would. And yes, I would expect them to get along. I'm an old timer when it comes to that breed, and while there are bad apples, most are not. So I disagree with that analogy.


Pittbulls have their issues, but the main problem is that most of the people who buy pittbulls (and rotties, etc) are exactly the sort of people who shouldn't have those sorts of dogs.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> We want you to have the maximum chance of success and enjoy the hobby, and we want the frogs to thrive.


And from all evidence, his frogs are thriving. Thats his point.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

At this point it should be obvious that enough has been said in this thread. 

Even the OP has stopped posting.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Rich Conley said:


> And from all evidence, his frogs are thriving. Thats his point.


What evidence? His posts?

His vast experience and sales reciepts?

Edit

Sorry ....I was responding from my email and not looking at the postings above.

I agree, that ths thread is overdone.

As always...if someone doesn't like my above posting or any of my postings for that matter....I will accept the criticism and negative rep.


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## choco (May 1, 2009)

I understand why many people are against the idea for multiple species in the same tank, the two largest that I've found being aggression concerns across species and the number one being polluting genetic lines. However, I do find that it seems a bit childish to bat eachother for differing opinions and views. 

I firmly understand the reasons individuals are against mixing species; however I know of a few individuals who have multiple kinds of dart frogs in their tanks without problems, they're thriving in fact. 

None of these individuals have darts in order to breed them, they enjoy them simply for how they are, much like owners with cats and dogs who do not breed them, or they would be overrun with kittens and puppies. Any offspring that have been produced were culled when they were eggs to prevent an unwanted mix from being born.

I think that different opinions should be respected, not bashed, and that information should be mutually shared in order to enlighten others. Not in the sense of 'I'm right and your wrong' but in an effort to support people. 

There will be always be people who will mix no matter what you say, the best that all of us as a community can do is give them the right knowledge and tools in order to do this successfully. Why do this? For the sake of the animals, at least to give them a chance to be happy and healthy, because the owner is going to do it whether you will it or no. 

I am not sitting on one side of the camp or the other on this opinion, I think everyone should be advised of their options, why it is and is not a good idea, and given the tools to do what is right for them.

Thank you.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

jelly_shrimp said:


> HOLY CRAP IF I SAW YOU IN PERSON (and you were a woman) I'D KISS YOU!!! I JUST THOUGHT OF HOW AWESOME A STREAM WOULD BE IN MY 48 LONG!!! THANK YOU!!!
> 
> Also, from everything I've read its pretty big taboo to mix em. Because for one, they don't live long, two, can't really trade them because what would you call them? Would the consumer know about them? And third, would YOU know how to care for them? So, it doesn't seem like a very smart thing to do, tough luck.
> 
> But, I'd assume that if they are all males (not females because they will fight) then it may be ok, just an assumption tho, make sure first.


I got negative rep for this being immature and argumentative, immature is a stretch, but how the heck is this argumentative?


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> It is best to just _try_ to describe the many signs of it and to warn against it.
> 
> This is what all the older experienced hobbyists are trying to warn against for the youngster noobs who all want "community" vivariums.
> 
> ...


I don't see how a single point in here applies any differently to a same species tank as a mixed one.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

DARTFROG420 said:


> i'm new to the dart frogs, i always dive head first in murky waters if you know what i mean... also does anybody know the best way to build a stream in a tank. have it start in one corner and kind of move around the tank like a snake. whether it be fiberglass or slate.. or something different. i've seen alot of videos on you tube of other tanks done that way. i'm looking to do a tank full of live plants with a stream running through it. any help would be appreciated.


OK lets talk moving water features in general. Everyone wants one, at least when they first start out. After all they're cool! After a while though, most of us don't bother. So my first piece of advice is...don't bother. Save it for later. If you take this advice, you'll be unique. I didn't take it either when it was first given to me.

Moving water feature design, begins with the pump. I really like the Maxi-Jet, Mini-Jet, and Micro-Jet series of pumps. The Mini-Jets seem to be a good all around compromise. Pumps need a sump, have an outlet and hose, need to be plugged in, and sooner or later, need to be replaced. Plan your Viv layout and design accordingly, then buy the pump and model the setup. Put it in a bowl of water the same depth of the Viv's sump(pond). Attach the hose you want to use. Raise it up to the expected height, plug it in and let it outlet into a large pipe and flow back to the sump. Adjust your design accordingly. One thing you'll notice is that even a small stream needs a large flow rate. Waterfalls are nice that way. Even a little flow makes for a nice waterfall feature, complete with moving water and that pleasant trickling water sound. So my second piece of advice is ditch the high GPH stream and go more with a waterfall. A little flow goes a long way.

Another comment about the sump. It would be a very good idea to locate the pump in the sump with some sort of screening to prevent dirt, plant material, and tadpoles, from being sucked up into the pump.

If you've made it this far, you still want a stream. The thing about the stream bed is that you want something, some material, to prevent the water from soaking through, and keep it flowing down the bed. Bent halves of PVC pipe, glued sections of cork tube halves, and the like, are all possibilities. They work but look kinda tacky IMO. So the trick is to find a waterproof material that you can attach some gravel, sand or whatever, to make it look good, but at the same time allow it to be shaped and routed around the Viv. Kinda like plastic sheeting, ect. 

Now this is where I'm going to leave this thread, for a while anyway, and give people a chance to offer some good ideas on stream bedding materials. After all, it must be very exhausting to keep discussing the whole mixing thing ad nauseum. 

______________
EricG.NH


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Rich Conley said:


> I don't see how a single point in here applies any differently to a same species tank as a mixed one.


I got a negative rep hit for this post stating " don't post flaws about my post. Post your own solutions".


I don't see any solutions, because I don't see a specific problem being addressed in your post. You are citing several potential issues dealing with aggression that are valid in both mixed and unmixed tanks. They're not pitfalls of mixed tanks, they're pitfalls of any tank with multiple animals.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

^ Nicely done. Eric had the nerve to try and hijack the thread with an informative, thoughtful post about building a stream. Nice job getting things back on track, we really need to focus on reputation, who's been righted and wronged, and the endless debate on mixing even though the original poster appears to have gotten their answer very early on, and had asked questions about backgrounds and stream construction.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Marty71 said:


> ^ Nicely done. Eric had the nerve to try and hijack the thread with an informative, thoughtful post about building a stream. Nice job getting things back on track, we really need to focus on reputation, who's been righted and wronged, and the endless debate on mixing even though the original poster appears to have gotten their answer very early on, and had asked questions about backgrounds and stream construction.


A question was asked. A poster answered it from his own personal experience. Another poster said, basically 'that can't happen, you're a liar because it disagrees with my beliefs'. I have a problem with that, and I have a problem with posters being accused of lying simply because they disagree with people. 

The name of this thread is "Can you mix dart frogs? Also how to build a stream though a tank?". Discussion of mixing, and disputing the myths people are espousing, is certainly relevant.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Rich Conley said:


> A question was asked. A poster answered it from his own personal experience. Another poster said, basically 'that can't happen, you're a liar because it disagrees with my beliefs'. I have a problem with that, and I have a problem with posters being accused of lying simply because they disagree with people.
> 
> The name of this thread is "Can you mix dart frogs? Also how to build a stream though a tank?". Discussion of mixing, and disputing the myths people are espousing, is certainly relevant.


Apparantly I'm just "complaining" here. Thanks for taking anonymous shots at people instead of actually discussing the topic at hand. There are arguments on both sides, and they deserve to be aired without people taking personal shots at each other.


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## rpmurphey (Mar 9, 2009)

Mixing frogs is up to the individual person and that is it. Make your own decision based on information that is given to you.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

Rich Conley said:


> A question was asked. A poster answered it from his own personal experience. Another poster said, basically 'that can't happen, you're a liar because it disagrees with my beliefs'. I have a problem with that, and I have a problem with posters being accused of lying simply because they disagree with people.
> 
> The name of this thread is "Can you mix dart frogs? Also how to build a stream though a tank?". Discussion of mixing, and disputing the myths people are espousing, is certainly relevant.


I stand corrected. But take a look at this whole thread, remember that it is in the beginner section and then look at the original question. A relatively new member asked if they could mix frogs and how to build a stream. They were told 5-10 different times don't go there, this is a bad idea, look at this link, that link, until Chris mercifully gave them a little background on why most people don't consider it a good idea. This is how they responded:




DARTFROG420 said:


> thank you everyone for you input and help. i thought that these boards sent you an email to notify when someone replys to your post. but never got any. i will definitely check out black jungle's website. and thanks for the heads up on mixing them too. like i said i'm new to dart frogs, and i always jump in head first. usually getting way ahead of myself. also another qeustion i have is with making backgrounds. one person told me to use great stuff pond and stone foam, is that what everybody else uses or is there a better way to do it. i want an elaborate backround and tank with lots of plants and rocks. if there is a website showing step by step that would help alot. thanks again to everybody.


Mixing question asked. Mixing question answered. No apparent desire for a debate found in the reply. Anybody wonder why the original poster never responded after page 2? Can't imagine they were interested in a 6 page debate yet here we go again.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

OK I'm back to finish up my thoughts on stream beds. In general you'd want something that is:

Waterproof 
Conforming, so it could easiliy shaped
Adhesive, so you could attach sand, gravel, and the like
Durable, so it could stand up to the constant flow of water and debris
Frog safe, preference given to things that have a positive history in viv construction
Realistic color, brown, black, dark green
Readily available

The best material that I can think of that fits this, is silicone adhesive. The same stuff that many of us already use on backgrounds. One negative of silicone is that it doesn't stick well to plastics, or itself for that matter. Using it as an adhesive to hold gravel to the inside of a plastic pipe is not a long term solution. It will fail sooner or later and seperate from the pipe.
Same with plastic sheeting.

I've see two approaches that work reasonably well. The first is to use spray foam to form the basic stream bed and then coat with silicone and adhere the sand, gravel, ect. This is nice as its just an extension of the typical background making process. I like the use of black pond foam mostly for it's color. Scuffing up the surface of the cured foam will help the silicone stick to it. 

The other approach is to spread the silicone on a form, adhere the sand/gravel, peel the whole thing off the form and then lay it in the substrate. Nicer look but a little harder to do technically. 

Given the first approach is just a continuation of the background, I'd go that way. I'd also look to create a series of cascading pools, rather than a stream. The frogs will use the pools more than a stream. It's more natural looking IMO. You can use a smaller pump. And it adds interesting variety.

We all look forward to seeing what you ultimately create. Make sure to post some pics somewhere.

__________
EricG.NH


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