# Wasting D. Azureus



## Guest (Apr 19, 2006)

I purchased a D. azureus, and a D. tinctorius cobalt blue both similar in size from the same breeder about 3 weeks ago.



I seem to be having problems with the azureus. He's eating pretty good, but he seems to be loosing weight. The cobalt blue grew about twice as big as him, and I have seperated them to different tanks. I have the azureus in a 10 gallon false bottom, setup with the humidity from about 80-100% and the temp at about 68-70. I've raised it to about 72-74 degrees. He still seems to be loosing weight and I'm very afraid he might die. He is active thought so I'm not sure what the problem is. 

I placed him in a closed shoebox with ventalation last night. I raised the temp in his shoebox to about 75 and the humidity is about 80-100% now.

I'm feeding both of them fruit flies from Ed's Fly Meat about once a a day dusted most of the time with Rep-cal and Herptivite. (Blue and Pink)

The cobalt is in a 49 bowfront with a false bottom as well, seems to be hiding alot but I guess he's still getting used to it.

Attached are some pictures with size refference to both of them, taken about a week ago. Also a closeup of the Auzureus last night.

I switched him from his tank to a small tupperware box w/ wetted papertowel a bit of pothos and "monkeynut" bowl to hide/soak in.

I have personally (I am a vet tech) done a fecal smear from what was left in the tank, I am hopeing to see a fresh sample from him. What I found seemed to be some sort of flaggelte organism, I will be staining it and trying to take pictures which will be posted asap (I'm at work now). I did not see anything resembling coccidia. There was some sore of double nucleused ova of some kind, I have looked through my books and cannot find any pictures. If there are any Vets out there that can help me I have the ability to get the medications neccisary for treaments, but I need to know the mg/kg as I do not want to overdose this tiny guy.

Any advise at this point would be welcome.



Thank you,
Lauren


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

If you are a vet tech and work in a vets office, can't you take the frog to where you work to be treated? 

I am certainly no expert, but you mentioned that you had them in the same tank together - bad idea. Azureus don't even do very well mixed with others of its own kind. It may be a combination of stress from shipping and having to live with another frog mixed with parasites bringing the frog down. I hope you can save the little guy, and he needs his own place to live after he gets better in my opinion.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2006)

*To previous questions posed*

I'm sorry I must have forgotten to state that they have been seperated. I put one in a 10 gallon and one in a 49 gallon. They have been seperated for awhile. These frogs were not shipped to me, I purchased the from a show. They were in top condition when I bought them, and one still is, its the auzureus thats in slow decline. They bouth ate heathlity for about 2 weeks and I noticed that the Auzureus was getting thin, I immediatly seperated them and then did all that was mentioned above. I thought the stress of having another frog in there could be a factor, so I took care of that. They are not going back together----ever. I thought because they were froglets of the same size they would be fine together until I had the capibility of setting up another tank.

As to the Vet tech question-I work at a dog and cat practice ONLY. The only vet around the area (within 100 miles) here that does take care of exotics only does reptiles and she even gave me a few of her books to look through to see if i could find the answer. I am hopeing this is parasitical in nature, its seems to be pointing this way, but again I'm unsure. I would love some feedback on this and maybe some treatment plans. I want to do SOMETHING before it gets worse. I have no problem giving medications, SQ fluids, IM shots whatever---I just need to know what to do.

Thanks,
Lauren


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Is the frog eating? The only recoveries I have heard of when the frog stops eating and starts to waste away is when people have force fed the frog. If you are willing to try force feeding there is a thread on here somewhere about the subject. If your local vet cannot recommend a colleague, you can call Dr. Frye at 734-439-2273, he is willing to do phone consultations. 

At only the size of a penny, these are pretty young froglets, they are quite delicate at this age, and much less hardy than older, larger frogs.


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## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

Parasites are quite common in the hobby. The big question (and I don't pretend to have an answer) is which are pathogenic and at which levels. However, in a sick frog, it's a safe bet that any parasite load isn't good.

Panacur will take care of many of the common amphibian parasites. Dosing accurately for such small little things is nearly impossible, but luckily there is a WIDE margin of safety. Take the granular form (dog and cat type), and grind with a mortar and pestle until powdery (ie small enough to dust flies). I usually dust with panacur once every three days for three treatments. I recheck fecals then and continue to treat approximately once weekly until I get three negative fecals in a row.

Ivermectin can also be used (just a tiny drop on the skin), but there is concern among some vets that this may be too effective in killing off all the parasites at once and cause either intestinal obstruction or large inflammatory response to all the dead parasites. I think Dr. Frye recommends treating with ivermectin only after panacur.

Hope this helps.

Ryan

PS: Fresh fecals are extremely important. Do a floatation and a direct smear as well.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

*Thank YOU!!!*

Thank you so much for that number. I will call him tomorrow when its not so late. I've checked on the frog after work and he seems to be doing a little better, he might be a little chubbier, I didn't want to stress him out too much so I let him be after I peeked in there for a second. 

I did do a direct smear, well I guess you could call it a smear, I just dropped two little poops on a slide with a drop of saline solution and looked at it under a oil lens at about 100X. This is the lens I use to see giardia and coccidia with dogs and cats. I really have no idea how long those specific poops were there, but they were stuck to leaves so I'm not sure if the little critters I saw where there after the fact. They were kind of teardrop shapped, and looked very flaggelete(sp?) like I did try to stain them but I didn't have a chance to take a look at it after then and get pictures because we had emergencies come in all day.

I'm not going to go about saying I know really too much of anything about these guys as I only started working with them a tiny while ago, but most frogs I know a lot about, and I just know to tell when they are sick. I'll just keep on learnin more and more and maybe someday I can give other begginers advice like you have me.

Thank you guys for your help, hopefully I can start talking about normal stuff instead of "oh my god my frogs dying help stuff" I really hate to start out on that note.

Back to being a forum troll,
-Lauren


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Lauren,

As a vet tech you can call one of the Zoos that does a lot of amphibian work and talk to the vet techs or vets about what you should be looking for as well as treatment options. Most Zoo Vets/vet techs will answer your questions.. 


Ed


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

*Thank you*

I will do that thank you. He looks ALOT better, he's got his chubb back, I don't know what was going on, I'm going to break down the tank he was in and disenfect it, start over.
Thanks,
Lauren


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2006)

Well I just got home from work. The Auzureus was sitting in the little shoebox in a weird position, like his front legs weren't working. He had been acting weird and floppy with his hands before this, I just thought it was because he was weak. I touched him with my finger and he stretched out and died. *cry* this is so disheartening. Do you know anyone who does necropsies on these guys? He's going in a jar of formalin. Did I do something wrong with my husbandry? Could he have been just born wrong? Any thoughts? I never ended up giving him the panacur, he never responded to eat anything. I'm so upset that I did something wrong here, I just don't understand why the other one is thriving....


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Northwest Zoopath will do necropsies: http://www.zoopath.com. Since you work in a vet clinic, you can probably have your vet be the consulting vet on the necropsy. 

Very young froglets (by the size you showed it was very young), are more delicate and easy to lose to stress and other issues, especially for beginners. It could have been lots of things: parasites, bacterial infection, and stress are just some of the possible causes. Larger juvenile frogs are typically easier to care for and less likely to go downhill.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

I wish I would have checked this forum earlier, and you'll hate me for saying this but your frog probably wasn't dead when you thought it was. Many frogs sprawl in cause to stress, always wait! 
Was you feeding anything other than flies?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip"Many frogs sprawl in cause to stress, always wait! "

In dart frogs this is typically related to calcium insufficiency due to some form of calcium metabolism disruption (although there can be other pathological causes) and not to stress. 

Ed


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2006)

*Frog*

No, I waited. I couldn't do anything but watch him stop breathing, I tired everything. I even ran to the hospital to grab some heart drugs and breathing drugs (having no idea if these would have worked) And he had stopped breathing and his heart had stopped. So no, I didn't say he's dead RIGHT when he did that. I've been around frogs way to long to know thats the case. Again, I dusted his flies almost everyday. I know he got enough calcium. I even had a UV/uvb light on the tank just in case. The other frog is still doing fine. Waiting for the necropsy results.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: Frog*

Feeding anything other than ff's? Are their cultures in prime condition, no mold(s)?


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2006)

*Frogs*

Nope, just fruit flies from Ed's, they were brand new cultures.


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

*Re: Frog*



stchupa said:


> Feeding anything other than ff's? Are their cultures in prime condition, no mold(s)?


Would mold in fruit fly cultures be harmful to frogs?


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: Frog*



Frank H said:


> stchupa said:
> 
> 
> > Feeding anything other than ff's? Are their cultures in prime condition, no mold(s)?
> ...


Can be depending on the type. Frogs may trip :?:


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Would mold in fruit fly cultures be harmful to frogs?


I've only ever heard that black mold is of concern. I am currently having a bout of green mold in my cultures and have had so in the past with no effects to the frogs.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

color doesn't give you a name, there's only so many colors but thousands of types of mold. Some mold won't give an effect, some will, some may not cause apparent decrease in health. Some of the deadly molds may not seem to inhibit, but that would be due to spore count or even if it hasn't started to spore yet. The flies have to carry the spores.
I say discard all moldy cultures before they can transmitt to others, do not reintroduce those flies to a fresh culture. Some molds may also have a psycodelic effect on the frogs, while not being directly toxic to the frogs physically, will cause a decreased appitite (loss of interest/sensation/visual impairment) and render the frog weak and suseptable.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

I have never had a problem with mold, except with prepaired medias which I no longer use because it was so common and such a waste.
A remedy I use that never seems to fail is add a layer of corn meal to the top and on that add some fresh squeezed grape fruit/lemon/lime/orange juice. It has to be the right consistancy (not dry), and it's quick to find out how through some trial and error if any. The juice I use is through a an electric juicer, which I use the thick bottom portion for the coverage.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have significant doubts that any of the molds that show up in ff cultures can exert any psychotropic effects on the frogs. This would require that the mold secrete a psychotropic alkaloid like those found in ergot. 

Most of the molds that grow in ff cultures are aspergillums, and penicillum species which do not secrete psychotropic alkaloids. 

The problem with most molds is that they reduce shorten the productive life span of a culture. 

I microwave my cultures for 3-4 minutes and this has eliminated the problem of molds for me as this gets the media and the container hot enough to sterilize them. 
If you get a commercial mixture like the Carolina Bio supply mixture, this will also reduce your mold issues. One method is to use the media of your choice and then add a thin layer of moistened Carolina media to cover the surface. 

Some comments

Ed


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Lauren,

I was just visiting a well-known frog breeder tonight and we were talking about health problems. This is a person who has been breeding herps for a long time and who routinely produces great livestock. But even he was saying that there are some individuals, despite all the treatments he has to offer them, that just don't survive.

I think you did everything possible and more than a lot of people would have been capable of, and the fact that your other frog is thriving says good things about your husbandry. So I don't think you need to beat yourself up over this. It's sad to lose an animal, but it does happen and all we can do is learn from the situation and move on. 

When you get more frogs they will be lucky to be in the care of someone who is very observant and does her research.

Hang in there,

--Diane


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## Guest (May 9, 2006)

*Results back on biopsy OMG what happened?!?!*

Here are the results just in today after over a week. The lab said they had to re-section the specimen so it took longer. 

Biopsy 
The specimen consists of necropsy tissues representing a whole body
necropsy from a 2 month old Dendrobates azureus which was obtained
with another frog 3 weeks prior to death. In the last week, the frog
started wasting and losing body tone. Some improvement was noted but
then the frog died.

Sections of skin have fungal organisms in the epidermis and
superficial keratin layers. Thalli containing zoospores and empty
thalli are recognized consistent with Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis
(chytrid) infection. Secondary bacterial infiltrates of cocci are also
present.

Most of the abdominal organs are moderately to severely autolyzed. A
few ciliated Balantidium-like parasites are noted in the lumen of the
large intestine. Immature ovarian tissue is recognized indicating that
the frog was female.

Microscopic Findings:
1. Syndrome, chytridiomyocosis.
2. Parasitism, ciliates, large intestine.
3. Autolysis.

Comment:
The cause of death is skin chytrid fungal infection with secondary
bacterial infection due to loss of skin integrity. Chytrid infection
is a serious problem in frogs worldwide and is causing deaths in
multiple species. The breeder should be notified that this frog was
infected and other frogs in the owner's collection should be carefully
monitored. Gross lesions are usually characterized by skin flaking
especially in the inguinal areas and hind legs. The National Aquarium
in Baltimore may have suggestions for dealing with this infection.

WHAT SHOULD I DO!?! 
I still have one healthy frog!

Please help!!!
-Lauren

*edit-sorry about the typos, I was busy at work when I wrote this.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Ed has a way for you to treat it. I'm sure he will speak on this.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Given that you have a positive you may want to treat for the full ten days... You are going to have to strip and disinfect the enclosure. All frogs in your collection may be positive and should be tested and/or prophylactically treated... 


see http://www.open.ac.uk/daptf/froglog/FROGLOG-46-1.html 
From Froglog (reference at end of snipped paragraph) 

Snip "Successful Treatment of Chytridiomycosis 
By Donald K. Nichols and Elaine W. Lamirande

Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis is a recently discovered species of chytridiomycete (chytrid) fungus (Longcore et al., 1999) that has been isolated from many different amphibian species with fatal skin infections (Longcore, 2000). In experimental studies with dendrobatid frogs (Dendrobates tinctorius and D. auratus), we showed that B. dendrobatidis can be a primary pathogen (Nichols et al., 2001). The earliest clinical sign of chytridiomycosis in dendrobatid frogs is excessive shedding of skin; ante mortem diagnosis of chytrid infection can often be made through microscopic examination of shed skin and/or skin imprints (Nichols et al, 2001).

In another study, we experimentally infected juvenile D. tinctorius and then, once excessive skin shedding had begun, we treated them topically with one of three antimicrobial drugs: trimethoprim-sulfadiazine (TMS), miconazole, or itraconazole (Nichols et al., 2000). A powdered form of itraconazole was suspended in 1% methyl cellulose to make a 1% suspension of itraconazole; this was then diluted with 0.6% saline to a final concentration of 0.01% itraconazole in suspension. A 1% solution of miconazole was diluted with 0.6% saline to a final concentration of 0.01% miconazole. A 48% solution of TMS was diluted with saline to a final concentration of 0.1%. Infected frogs were treated by immersion in one of the three solutions or suspensions for five minutes per day for either eight (miconazole) or 11 (itraconazole and TMS) consecutive days. At the end of the study, all frogs were euthanized and examined histologically. 

Although treatment with TMS prolonged the frogs’ lives compared to untreated controls, it did not eliminate the chytrids from the frogs. All frogs treated with either miconazole or itraconazole were cured of chytrid infection. However, the miconazole treatments were poorly tolerated by the frogs which caused us to end that part of the experiment earlier than planned; in retrospect, this was probably due to ethyl alcohol in the original 1% stock solution.

We have subsequently used topical baths in 0.01% suspensions of itraconazole to successfully treat other experimentally infected D. tinctorius (Nichols and Lamirande, 2000) and naturally infected Litoria caeulea (unpublished data). This appears to be a highly effective treatment for chytridiomycosis in captive juvenile and adult anuran amphibians. Further studies are needed to determine if this treatment is efficacious and safe to use in tadpoles and caudates. 

Itraconazole is a potent drug with fungicidal activity against a wide spectrum of fungal organisms. Therefore, it should not be indiscriminately used to treat wild populations of amphibians or to prophylactically treat captive animals.

Itraconazole is commercially available as a 1% solution (Sporanox, Janssen Pharmaceutica, Inc.), rather than the suspension that we formulated. This solution contains hydrochloric acid and propylene glycol as solvents and has a pH of 2; we do not know if this solution is safe to use on amphibians. Our experience with the frogs’ reactions to the diluted miconazole solution clearly illustrates that caution must be exercised when attempting to use various drug formulations to treat amphibians. 

References

Longcore, J.E., Pessier, A.P. & Nichols, D.K. (1999): Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis gen. et. sp. nov., a chytrid pathogenic to amphibians. Mycologia 91: 219-227. 

Longcore, J. (2000) Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis, the "frog chytrid" (abstract), Proceedings: Getting the Jump on Amphibian Disease, Cairns, Australia, 26-30 August 2000, p.21. 

Nichols, D.K. & Lamirande, E.W. (2000) Treatment of cutaneous chytridiomycosis in blue-and-yellow poison dart frogs (Dendrobates tinctorius) (abstract), Proceedings: Getting the Jump on Amphibian Disease, Cairns, Australia, 26-30 August 2000, p 51. 

Nichols, D.K., Lamirande, E.W., Pessier, A.P. & Longcore, J.E. (2000) Experimental transmission and treatment of cutaneous chytridiomycosis in poison dart frogs (Dendrobates auratus and Dendrobates tinctorius) (abstract), Proceedings: Joint Conf. Am. Assoc. Zoo Vet. and Internat. Assoc. Aqua. An. Med., New Orleans, LA, 17-21 September 2000, pp. 42-44. 

Nichols, D.K., Lamirande, E.W., Pessier, A.P. & Longcore, J.E. (2001) Experimental transmission of cutaneous chytridiomycosis in two species of dendrobatid frogs. J. Wildlife Dis. 37(1): 1-11. 

For further information, contact: Donald K. Nichols & Elaine W. Lamirande, Department of Pathology, National Zoological Park, 3000 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Washington, DC 20008, USA. [email protected] 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROGLOG Number 46, August 2001
Contents | Next " endsnip


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## Guest (May 9, 2006)

*What do I do.*

OK thank you so much Ed for that input. I will treat the frog as soon as I can get a grip on how much I need to be giving him, I will talk to my exotic vet in the area and see what she says until I can get a little more input from the Aquarium and the labs. The Itroconazole is a pretty expensive drug, but I have no problem if it will keep the other one from dying. My other question is , is this species specific....or can it be transfered to my Whites treefrogs? They stay pretty dry comparativly and very hot, but do i need to be treating them as well....

I have to break down the aquarium and I guess bleach it? I have a spray (pink with a Whites treefrog on it) Will that do that job as well? Do I need to completly trash all of my plants that are in there? Moss? I know I wouldn't put them back in with the frog but do they need to die too? 

Where did this disease come from? Is it my fault? Did I do something wrong? Should I not have collected moss from outdoors? Or did this originate with the breeder? I really don't want to point fingers but I did invest quite alot of time driving 5 hours to get these frogs and alot of money on them. 

I guess I'm just taking this pretty bad. I've run around all morning trying to find answers. I've tried to contact the breeder, but I tried that about 4 weeks ago to no response. 

The other frog appears healthy and still eating. He's the last one I have. I'm not sure I will be getting more if he dies.

Just looking for some answers,
Thanks guys and gals,
-Lauren


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## Guest (May 10, 2006)

*More info*

I have gotten more info from the aquarium and the lab, w/ and exotics specialist. 
They both reccomended the same treatment Ed had listed here, and thank you Ed.... I faxed the paper you send me to the pharmacist to clarify what I needed. He was unable to provide me with the Itroconazole solution, so it's being compounded and will be here tomorrow. From what I read its safer anyway.
Treatment will start tomorrow. The plants will be donated to my mom and a few others that do not have frogs as houseplants. The moss will be disposed of in a way that it cannot contaminate this enviroment. The cages will be soaped down then bleached. I will also be treating my other 6 frogs (Dumpy whites and Pacman) just in case.

The breeder has still not responded to my phone calls.

I'm not sure about this. But i'll do what I have to do.

I have alot of cleaning to do......

Thanks guys


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The only thing I forgot to add is that the itraconazole should be buffered in amphibian ringers to eliminate the acidity issues. The itraconazole should be made up in individual doses in a dark container (or a method of measuring out individual doses) and added to the ringers' solution immediately before treatment. 

It is possible to have brought it in from outside but chytrid is also potentially widespread in the pet frogs... 
The problem is that very few people get the necropsies performed and as a consequence deaths due to chytrid go past without notice. 

The whites can get it and can be killed by it but if they have access to basking sites that are hot enough, it can remain asymptomatic until the frogs are kept coole enough (below 75 F seems to be the threshold) 


Ed


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: More info*

Bleach would possibly be a good idea, the soap (depending) I'm not so sure. In either case allow to dry completely after cleaning, if not before also. Toss anything once living in the tank, aside (of course) from the other frog (quarantine seperate from all subsrate/plant(s), and do not introduce feeding cultures into inclosure). Wood used may be ok if allowed to dry properly (weeks/months) but, at a potential risk. Would be advisable to start from scratch.


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## DPD4230 (Dec 1, 2006)

*mold if ff culture*

what happens if mold begins to form in the ff mixture?
Should you trash that mix? :?:


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