# Lethargic Variabilis



## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Hey Guys and Gals - hoping for some collective feedback and ideas on getting some newly acquired frogs in better health. 

I recently received 4 Southern Variabilis that are very lethargic. 1 was extremely skinny, but other 3 _look_ nice and healthy.

Previous conditions were:
- housed in a poorly ventilated tub with no drainage and over saturated. It was basically waterlogged sphagnum at the bottom and a couple film cans. 
- previous owner said the AC was not working where they were housed, and last few weeks have been pretty hot
- assumed that they were supplemented when fed

New conditions since in my care:
- moved to a large plastic deli container (one of those 10" dia x 4" tall), punched holes in the lid for venitiation, and added slightly damp sphagnum and plant clipping
- fed 1x/day with dusted flies
- kept in room with high of 78'F during the day and low of probably 70'F at night. 

The 1 skinny one has since died (not surprised sadly) and the other 3 still look nice and plump but I haven't seen them eat. The flies seem to be dwindling which is a good sign. I wouldn't be worried except that they are extremely slow and lethargic. I see them crawl around every now and then, but very slow and clumsily. Never seen one hop. Even if I gently nudge one with my finger, it will barely move away. 

I'm working on a permanent tank for them now, but hoping they will perk up in their temporary little tub. 

I read up some before posting, and one diagnosis that seemed to fit was them being overheated, which makes sense in this situation. Are there any other ideas to why they'd be so lethargic? Should I just wait and see, since they should now be in a better temp range?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'd hate to see them decline. Thanks.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

Never had lethargy issues with the Southerns I've worked with. After reading your post, I also suspected overheating (which, combined with the soggy/sealed conditions they were previously in, probably led to issues with evaporative cooling). 

However, if you'd like to consider other issues: 

1) You should confirm whether or not they were supplemented with the previous owner, and if possible, find out how old any supplements were. Deficiency problems may explain their lack of smooth movement(s).

2) Just because flies appear to be dwindling, doesn't mean they are. They're hard enough to see when they clean off their vitamin dust, and it's even worse when they can hide in your sphagnum.

3) Speaking of your substrate...I'd consider switching to dampened paper towels. It's easier to spot flies that way, as well as monitor fecal quality/frequency.

4) I didn't see any mention of hiding spots other than the plant cuttings. I would try adding a couple of magnolia leaves, or even some PVC fittings, to reduce the frogs' ability to see you. That might convince them to move around more confidently. When I first got my Southerns, they basically found little territories beneath certain leaves, and hid there all day. If they tried that without leaf litter, they would certainly seem "lethargic" (e.g., "hiding" in one place); however, "just sitting" under leaves is common with new additions. On a similar note, I wouldn't suggest poking them anymore unless you see one that's dead.

5) Your daytime high of 78F is, in my opinion, still a tad high. I'd shoot for around 75F. 

6) Unless they were in a really small tub previously, the overall moving process, coupled with the smaller container you're using, may also be stressing them out.


Anyway, I'm no expert; that's just what popped into my mind. Best of luck with your Variabilis!


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks Jeremiah - the advice is much appreciated and duly noted. 

They seemed to be a little more perky today. Still not a lot of movement, but more than the last day (seems to be progressively more each day), and they are "sitting up" a little more on their front legs. I didn't mention that there are 2 film cans in there that they often hide in. I can add some leaves too. 

-----

_1) You should confirm whether or not they were supplemented with the previous owner, and if possible, find out how old any supplements were. Deficiency problems may explain their lack of smooth movement(s)._
- I can ask, but I'm thinking the previous owner most likely was dusting the flies based on what I know of them. 

_2) Just because flies appear to be dwindling, doesn't mean they are. They're hard enough to see when they clean off their vitamin dust, and it's even worse when they can hide in your sphagnum._
- Very true... I'll monitor the flies better before adding more. 

_3) Speaking of your substrate...I'd consider switching to dampened paper towels. It's easier to spot flies that way, as well as monitor fecal quality/frequency._
- Good idea... I was just hoping to make an easier transition by using much less damp sphagnum.

_4) I didn't see any mention of hiding spots other than the plant cuttings. I would try adding a couple of magnolia leaves, or even some PVC fittings, to reduce the frogs' ability to see you. That might convince them to move around more confidently. When I first got my Southerns, they basically found little territories beneath certain leaves, and hid there all day. If they tried that without leaf litter, they would certainly seem "lethargic" (e.g., "hiding" in one place); however, "just sitting" under leaves is common with new additions. On a similar note, I wouldn't suggest poking them anymore unless you see one that's dead._
- Mentioned above, there are 2 film cans they frequent off and on.
_
5) Your daytime high of 78F is, in my opinion, still a tad high. I'd shoot for around 75F._
- I'll lower the thermostat. I might actually be cooler where they are... the house thermostat is set to 77'F but there is a vent right above all my frogs and it always feels much cooler in that area. It very likely could be closer to 75'F or lower.

_6) Unless they were in a really small tub previously, the overall moving process, coupled with the smaller container you're using, may also be stressing them out._
- I can try and put them back in a larger tub while I'm working on their permanent tank. I wasn't expecting to get them so I didn't have a tank ready.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Any fecals or PCR tests performed?


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Any fecals or PCR tests performed?


No, I haven't done any of that yet, Mr. Gribble. Debating on if I should or not. They seem to be improving a little each day. Hoping it was overheating and nothing more long-term.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Gibbs.JP said:


> No, I haven't done any of that yet, Mr. Gribble. Debating on if I should or not. They seem to be improving a little each day. Hoping it was overheating and nothing more long-term.


Proper testing could eliminate parasites or chytrid as a cause of your frogs demise. Then you could examine environmental factors as a possible cause.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Haven't done any testing yet, but the good news is that they seem to be getting better each day. While still not hopping around or moving very quickly, they seem to be more active and perkier. They are sitting up better (they used to lay more prone), and I actually saw one eat today. Fingers crossed it was just overheating and they are on the mend.


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## Leuklover (Jul 18, 2016)

Best wishes for a speedy recovery!!!


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