# Pumps Are Killing Me!



## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Howdy folks.

So, I'm having just a heck of a time with water pumps for my 30g 18x18x24 tank's waterfall. I don't even know what specific question(s) I have, but hoping maybe someone has some input that could help me regain some sanity.

I have a waterfall feature in my tank. I started out with an Exo Terra ReptiFlo 250 that I got at my local herp shop for like $12. It worked perfectly and was super quiet. But, after maybe 2 months, the pressure kept lessening to where water started barely trickling out. So, I figured the pump broke and I bought a ReptiFlo 350 from the same place. I put this one in, it worked well, but it was SUPER LOUD! It made a constant loud grinding sound as it ran, which I later read was normal of that pump. It drove me up the wall. So, I bought another pump because it was rated really well and mentioned that it was super quiet. I got a Taam Rio+ 80 and put it in, only to find out it wasn't strong enough to pump the water up! Grr. And the place wouldn't take it back because it had been used.

So, the tank ran without it's glorious waterfall for a few weeks and I decided that I wanted it back because I missed the wonderful trickling sound and humidity and overall awesomeness it brought. I decided to try and clean the 250 pump and see if that worked because I couldn't stand the 350 noise. I cleaned out the 250, put it back in, and IT WORKED! It worked great and was super quiet and all was right in the world again. Yeah, that lasted about 4 days and now the water is back to a trickle. I took it out to clean it, but it didn't have any residue. Put it back in, and the water flow was even worse... 

The water pool the pump sits in does get a good amount of fine debris despite the screen and sponge filter it goes through. I can accept this due to lack of planning initially and that I'll have to clean the pump routinely. But, I'm not sure why the well working pump only lasted a few days this time around before it started losing pressure. I also found out that the angle the pump sits can affect the output pressure, but not sure why exactly. 

Stats: 
- Pump sits in about 3" of water, and the intake is fully submerged, but the top is above the water.
- The hose runs about 18" or so up to the waterfall output. The pump(s) initially had no trouble with the height.

Anyone real savvy with pumps have any input or guesses? I know many of you will be thinking "this is why I don't bother with water features and advise against it!", but I know people use them just fine all the time... I want to be one of those people!


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I'd suggest using a regular little fountain pump without a filter.

Maybe something like this
 
I had one of these in my first vivarium for over a year without having to do any maintenance.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Gibbs.JP said:


> I know many of you will be thinking "this is why I don't bother with water features and advise against it!"


That's exactly what I was thinking lol. 

If I were to use any sort of waterfall set up in any of my vivs, I would use an external canister filter. It makes maintenance and cleaning so much easier. Those submersible/in-the-viv type pumps are too much hassle to deal with.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

I'd say avoid internal pumps. Go with a canister filter instead.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

It sucks to have everything designed around specific equipment and already up and running, and then have to semi-tear things apart to go with something different,......but I also recommend the canister filter route.
I have the little Toms Rapids 80gph and you can't even tell it's running. Because of the way I have the tubing ran, it struggles to self prime, but that's an easy glitch to deal with on a rare occasion. I also recommend replacing the ribbed plastic tubing it comes with, with vinyl tubing. Totally worth the $25 and any minors mods to make it work with your setup.


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## Flip00u812 (May 19, 2015)

I've used both the Exo Terra Cascade and the 250. The Cascade puts out some good water pressure, but the motor burned up after 6 months. What I've found using them for the past year, is that they do get clogged with debris quite a bit, to battle this I use foam or screen to place around the intake for easier cleaning. Also, once you take apart the pump, there is a cap that goes over the impeller. That cap is used for water flow adjustment. It could be possible that the cap is getting turned and closing, causing the pressure to drop. Make sure you remove the impeller and clean that area periodically too. 

That being said, I agree with everyone else, just get a canister if possible. I made the mistake of building my viv(first one I ever built) and water section around my internal filter and it has been such a pain in the ass! I will never do that again. My next build with a water feature is going to be much more thought out.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

It doesn't have to be that specific filter. It just happens to be the one I have and seems to be the right size/price for most of the smaller water features I see on here.
The smallest canister filter I could find in the pet stores was $100 and it was only slightly larger than the Rapids.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Wow, you guys just dug right in! I didn't expect to get many replies, let alone so quickly... thanks!

So, I do have this canister filter: 



 that I bought when I had a water section trying to house fish in the same tank. Even though it hung on the back and I had to jerry-rig some hoses to get it going, it worked. BUT, because of the location and the ouput hose running lower than the filter in order to reach the top of the waterfall, it wouldn't pump until I put the output hose further down into the tank. So, I had to use both the filter and the pump. When I ditched the water feature idea, I took the canister filter off. During all that I never had frogs in the tank, so I was able to leave the top off. 

Even if I can get the canister filter to run the waterfall, I'd have to heavily modify the Exo Terra lid to fit the hang on back holder and the pipes. Like cutting the plastic frame as well as a big hole in the mesh. Which is doable id that's the best option.

Also... I'm working on my 100 gallon Exo Terra 36x18x36 tank that I was also planning to have a waterfall on... Apparently I'm a glutton for punishment. All this in mind, it might be prudent to drill the tank for an external canister filter. Anyone know of any good references on how to get that designed and set up? I know I've seen that before on some semi-recent posts, so I'll be looking for those.

Thanks again guys for the helpful insights and advice.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I'm home from work, so I'm scouring the board 
Here's a few pics of how I set mine up. Granted, it's a 40 breeder and not as tall and I made a custom top.
Next viv will be pretty big and I will definitely have an external filter/pump and I will definitely go through the bottom/side with bulkheads.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I saw the title of this thread and thought "he should have chosen something in a sensible flat if those pumps are killing him. Maybe try some running shoes." 

On a more helpful note, you might want to put a couple of ball valves into that setup for cleaning the filter. With as much head as it looks like you have in that setup, it might be a real hassle to get the pump primed again after breaking suction.

Just a thought,

Mark


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Encyclia said:


> I saw the title of this thread and thought "he should have chosen something in a sensible flat if those pumps are killing him. Maybe try some running shoes."


Haha Mark, I thought the same thing right after I posted this... I should have added "these" at the beginning!

So, of course I once again shot myself in the foot and just had my Amazon package arrive today containing this pump I got to put in the 100g tank: 




Now I'm thinking I might try this pump out in the 30g tank and use the canister filter for the 100g. OR, stay with me... Return the unused new pump and get another canister filter for the same price? 

If I use the canister filter for the 100g, I'd drill the glass and set the filter on the same level as the bottom (as opposed to hang on back as it's shown) and use bulkheads for both the supply and return tubes. The supply/intake tube would be about level/lower and the return/output tube would extend up to the waterfall... Pretty much like Ron has shown on his picture above. Would that work, suction and flow -wise? Also, I'm not sure if that filter will be strong enough to pump the water up to the top of the waterfall, which I'm planning to be about 24-30"...

If I used the canister filter on the 30g tank, I'd either have to drill the glass as well, or modify the lid to accommodate for the HOB bracket and the hoses.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Here's a quick idea of what I'm thinking if I use the canister filter with the new 100g tank. I'm just thinking that filter won't be powerful enough to push that height.



Thoughts?


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I just checked the box and manual. It doesn't rate the pump as far as a gph to height ratio. I think the intention is to hang it on the back and filter a small aquarium. So they don't rate it for that. 
Going 2' in height, I might consider a slightly bigger pump. Unless you don't mind a low flow. But I would be concerned about over working it and burning it out prematurely. I have no idea how much water it would push at 2' or if it would over work it. I just like to be cautious.
Also, if the tubing will be in the back and out of sight, I would keep,as much of it on the outside as possible. Just for ease of access for maint or repairs, etc.
Maybe a bulkhead up at the waterfall level, instead of both next to each other and the tube running up the inside of the tank. Also, 2 holes right next to each other might compromise the strength of the glass in that area just a bit.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Ya know what though? Looking at mine,....it pumps it up about a foot and then over a U shaped tube and through 2, 90* elbows. 
I'll bet it would pump a decent amount with a straight shot and one bend at the waterfall, at 2'.
Can always test it out first.


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## Wy Renegade (Feb 15, 2012)

I've no thoughts on the canister filter portion, but back to your original pump, just two thoughts - as already suggested, double check the valve and make sure you didn't accidentally cut the flow. Secondly, check your impeller, often if they build up debris to the point that flow stops or shuts down, the impeller will separate and needs to be replaced.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Btw, what did you use to draw that schematic?


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks Wy Renegade - sometimes you just need to see if the TV's plugged in before you call the repairman! Yeah, I checked those things... the flow control is really still to turn, so highly doubtful it would do it accidentally. I also cleaned the whole insides and it was still debris-free from my last cleaning.




Blueper said:


> Btw, what did you use to draw that schematic?


AutoCAD... it's what I do for a living.


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## mudbug (Mar 31, 2016)

Gibbs.JP
Getting back to your original pump question. Three suggestions that might help (if you haven't already tried).
1. Your pump needs to be completely submerged. If it is not you may be emptying the water in the sump underneath the false bottom quicker than it can be replaced.
2. Gph on your pump maybe too high again it may be emptying the water from the sump faster than it is being replaced. Restricting the flow of water may actually help.
3. The water feature increases the water surface area leading to faster evaporation of the water. You'll need to replace the evaporated water on a regular basis.
Are you sure you want water feature???


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Gibbs.JP said:


> AutoCAD... it's what I do for a living.


Ah. I was hoping it was some simple app or program that would come in handy for stuff like that. I've been using google sketchup for a while now. It's a very simple program and its free. I don't use it for smaller stuff. I used it for a basic layout of our house, for the remodel. Stuff like that. Super handy. 
Do you have one of those canister filters now?
Can you hook it up and pump water 2' up to see if it can handle it?


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

mudbug said:


> Gibbs.JP
> Getting back to your original pump question. Three suggestions that might help (if you haven't already tried).
> 1. Your pump needs to be completely submerged. If it is not you may be emptying the water in the sump underneath the false bottom quicker than it can be replaced.
> 2. Gph on your pump maybe too high again it may be emptying the water from the sump faster than it is being replaced. Restricting the flow of water may actually help.
> ...


Thanks mudbug. I'll try and add more water to see if I can fully submerge the pump. It might end up bringing the water level up to the substrate so I may not have enough room... I can try though. I'll also try and lower the flow because now I have it all the way up thinking it would put out more. I had no idea about the condition you mentioned, so thanks! I understand the evaporation issue, as I've noticed that in that tank I've never had to drain the water because it got too high, and rather had to add more water occasionally. Personally, I'd rather add water than remove it. 

Thanks much for the advice, I'll try those out! I've been weighing whether or not I should add a waterfall in the new tank, and I think I still want to. I hope that using an external canister filter on that one will make the difference in these issues. Since it's a "display tank", I really like the idea of having the waterfall. 



Blueper said:


> Ah. I was hoping it was some simple app or program that would come in handy for stuff like that. I've been using google sketchup for a while now. It's a very simple program and its free. I don't use it for smaller stuff. I used it for a basic layout of our house, for the remodel. Stuff like that. Super handy.
> Do you have one of those canister filters now?
> Can you hook it up and pump water 2' up to see if it can handle it?


Ron, yeah. I love SketchUp... it's so easy and so fun! I use it for work often to create 3D renderings and animated walk-throughs for clients. With the right plugins, you can really make the rendering look pretty dang real! I've got an old work buddy friend that does some mind blowing things with it. 

I do already have the KollerCraft TOM Rapids Mini Canister Filter (80gph). I'll try and set it up by itself how I envision it working on the new tank and see if it can push the height.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

My Magnum 350 canister used to pump water over 4 feet above it.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks JP!

I'm hoping I can use the one I already have... gonna set it up tonight or tomorrow night in a mock trial run to see if it will work how I envision it to. 

I tested the little submersible pump today on my lunch break and it's really powerful - it should easily pump the height I want and then some. If for some reason I can't get the canister filter to work, this can be a backup.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Ok, so at this point I'm pretty sure I'm overthinking this, but lets see if you have any opinions or red flags to throw in the ring...

Here is what I have built so far (for the most part).



My original idea was to put the submersible powerhead pump I already ordered and have now down in behind the waterfall section so I can still access it. Like this:


I already tested it and it should be more than powerful enough. I should still be able to access it behind the sectional divider, and I have a couple pre-filters the water under the false bottom would have to pass thru before it gets to the pump. Main concern with this could be keeping it clean so it doesn't fail. Maintenance would be a little bit of a pain, but still doable.

After reading that the overall consensus is to use an external canister filter, I'm hoping I can use the one I already have, and set up something like this:



Anyone see any glaring issues with that? I'd drill 2 holes (intake lower, output higher) for the hoses. What kind of bulkhead should I use? Or just a rubber grommet? I like the idea of having the pump outside the tank so easy access, and the fact that it's a filter means it shouldn't gunk up. I also need to make sure my filter is strong enough for that.

Someone hold my hand.........................


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Success!



(The hose won't be that long, I just had that piece and didn't cut it)

I got the canister pump set up at home how I plan to have it work. It had a decent flow - not too strong but should be plenty for a nice, calm water stream. At least I know it can handle the height. What a relief!

Now to just drill some holes in the tank (1x inlet hose, 1x output hose, and 1x drainage bulkhead at opposite end) and run the hoses. I'll probably put a ball valve on the outside in the hose span between the filter and bulkhead before going into the tank.

Any input on bulkheads to use?


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Not sure on bulkheads. I haven't really looked into them that much, so not sure what's available. I poked around at depot one time, but didn't see much and I didn't need them for my current tank. So, not sure about those.
I like the dsesign though. Looks like it will do the trick.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks to you all ... I feel pretty good about it now. Just need to find the right fittings and I think I'll be good to go. 

Thanks for humoring me during my mini meltdown on this! Don't tell my boss, but I've been so preoccupied trying to figure this out, I spent most my day browsing old threads and looking up parts! Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I know it was just a mock up and not a glaring issue, just curious.
will the filter be on the side of the tank, or can you hide it in the back?
Seeing how it's a 45* angle in the corner, everything would function exactly the same, whether it's on the side to back.
Or will it all depend on the stand?


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Ron - It will most likely be on the side. I would rather it be in the back, but I was planning to put it on an existing kitchen hutch piece we have that won't have any surface space at all behind the tank. The tank footprint is 18" and the hutch top is 19" 

OR! I wanted to try and find a nice, used entertainment center on craigslist, but my wife isn't having it. I'm already way over my projected budget on this tank. Unless I can find one dirt cheap, anything decent will be around $100.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Funny, I was shopping around at my local Amvets for some type of console table, entertainment center, hutch, etc that I could mod and turn into a nice stand. Something with doors on the bottom or that I could put doors on. I found a few nice pieces ranging from $15-40.
So, it's either spend the money or spend the time. Both are in high demand for other things at the moment, so I'm debating. But you can find some cool stuff, cheap, if you don't mind some extra handy work.


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## Xanneth (Jul 4, 2013)

It looks like you already have this sorted, but for my future exo 36x18x36 build I am planning on using an Eden 501 (80gph) or Eden 511 (160gph)...I'll probably go the smaller one. I don't know that much about filters but from what I've seen one of these should do the job.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Xanneth - That one looks like it should work fine (the smaller one). When I set up my 80gph one, it didn't have any trouble pushing the height, which was about 3/4" up the tank. I imagine it could push the whole 36" with little trouble. My output for the waterfall will only be about 24" up so I'm not worried anymore. The flow seems just right. If you get the 160gph one, you might want to make sure and get a ball valve since it might be a little too powerful.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Ok guys, I need some help again! I finally got the tank drilled, bulkheads, tubes and connectors all installed, and got the canister filter up and running to test it all out. It all works fine in theory and actually runs great for just a minute or two.

Here's where I'm having the trouble. I can't seem to keep the intake flow consistently flowing into the canister filter. 

Intake is the short tube:


I really don't know anything about how these filters work. When the filter is primed (full of water inside) and I plug it in, it works great for a few seconds until the intake stream (I can see through the clear tube) keeps getting less and less until it's not even trickling into the filter anymore. 

Here's the set up:


(I actually ended up drilling a 3rd hole lower for the intake, hoping to shorten the length of suction it needs to get to the filter. The lower hole is shown in the above pic, closer to the filter.)

I know it has something to do with physics and suction, because when I tinker with the ball valve at the output tube, it affects the intake tube flow into the canister. Even so, I still can't get the intake flow to hold a consistent flow into the filter.

*Basically, even if it starts out strong, the intake flow eventually stops, thus ending the whole cycle.*

It's hard to explain without being able to show... I wish I knew someone close by that really knew about this stuff. I'm hoping someone on here knows what I'm talking about and can give me some pointers. Thanks guys!


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I wouldn't think the length/height difference in the tubing would make much difference, if for no other reason, the pic in post #24. The suction side is lower and shorter and it tested fine.
My fist guess is that there is a break in suction somewhere. Likely on the intake side. 
Are the tubes tight on the fittings that come right off the canister?
I'm wondering if you even need the hose clamps. Those little collars should thread back up onto the tubing and clamp them down, like a compression fitting.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks for the input Ron. I also had some thoughts that it could be the suction on the intake side as well. One the intake bulkhead, the outside elbow is threaded into the bulkhead about as tight as I thought it could go before any stress. On the inside, I hammered a barbed elbow into the smooth inside of the bulkhead. I used one of these: Sioux Chief 5/8 in. x 1/2 in. Plastic 90 Degree Barb x MIP Elbow-904-28252001 - The Home Depot



It took a few trips to Home Depot to get this put together right. Basically, the white elbow barb is pushed into the smooth bulkhead interior. Then the black female barb screwed into the white elbow. The tube leads down to the intake bar from the canister filter (just like yours). 

It could possibly be losing suction inside the bulkhead where the barb is pushed in... that probably isn't air tight. I could slap some silicone on there and see if that helps. It's nice being able to take this stuff out for maintenance, but I could always just tear off the silicone and redo. 

As far as the hose clamps, they actually are helping. I think the tubing I'm using is too thick for the manufactured collars. I can see air bubbles on the intake side when I loosen the clamps and it works better when they are tightened.


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

You are simply having air in the line. Either flow is too fast and draining the water basin, to fast creating a whirlpool breaking the loop or air leak in the plumbing creating an airlock. Does it make a sucking noise prior to seizing? If so it is the whirlpool/water basin draining faster than it is replenishing. 


American Dad Living The American Dream


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

I often did an elbow facing the bottom of the water basin to avoid the whirlpool airlock. 


American Dad Living The American Dream


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

kblack3 said:


> You are simply having air in the line. Either flow is too fast and draining the water basin, to fast creating a whirlpool breaking the loop or air leak in the plumbing creating an airlock. Does it make a sucking noise prior to seizing? If so it is the whirlpool/water basin draining faster than it is replenishing.


Thanks kblack3. I'm hoping that the air getting in is at the barbed elbow and the bulkhead... that seems the most obvious place. I'm going to try and smear some silicone around that this evening and see if that works. The filter itself is really quiet so I don't hear much of anything. Once there is no more flow coming in from the intake tube, it will keep sending water out from the filter until it's about a 1/4" down from the top of the filter, then it just stops sending the water up/out. 



kblack3 said:


> I often did an elbow facing the bottom of the water basin to avoid the whirlpool airlock.


What do you mean? 

Here is how I have it:


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Well, I got it working for now. It indeed was something to do with suction on the intake side... apparently with the bulkhead and connectors I used. I siliconed the white barb into the smooth bulkhead opening yesterday and 24 hours later, tested it today. I was still having the same issue as before, so either there was still some air getting in where I siliconed it (hard to tell since it's way down in the tank and hard to access and pretty much unable to view), or it was somewhere else. 

So, I took out the whole intake tubing assembly and just ran a hose straight through - one hose from filter to submerged intake bar:



And that worked just fine. 

I liked the clean look of the bulkheads and the black elbows, so I might still try and figure out the right assembly of air-tight parts to get that. I don't think it was the outside elbow, so hopefully I can figure out the inside assembly. For now, I ordered a UNISEAL flexible bulkhead that I can just run the hose through. 

I also got a plug for that extra hole... which probably would have been fine. 

At least I know it works now. Also, with the full flow, I noticed a couple more areas of the waterfall I need to carve as the water was spilling over.


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

Gibbs.JP said:


> Thanks kblack3. I'm hoping that the air getting in is at the barbed elbow and the bulkhead... that seems the most obvious place. I'm going to try and smear some silicone around that this evening and see if that works. The filter itself is really quiet so I don't hear much of anything. Once there is no more flow coming in from the intake tube, it will keep sending water out from the filter until it's about a 1/4" down from the top of the filter, then it just stops sending the water up/out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Have all of the holes in the intake tube face down so it is drawing water from the bottom of the tank rather than the top. Drawing from the top can create small vortexes which can also lead to an airlock. I'm glad it's working now!


American Dad Living The American Dream


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

kblack3 said:


> Have all of the holes in the intake tube face down so it is drawing water from the bottom of the tank rather than the top. Drawing from the top can create small vortexes which can also lead to an airlock. I'm glad it's working now!


Ooooooohhh... I see. I'll do that! Thanks kblack3


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I am a total know- thinging about plumbing for a waterfall, and am really liking what this whole post is saying...but have a question about how piecing together those few plastic intake parts could restrict the flow just enough to help create a vacuum....love--LOVE--the drawings...the principles should be in a sticky in the parts/construction forums for simplicitons like me...thanks.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Judy S said:


> I am a total know- thinging about plumbing for a waterfall, and am really liking what this whole post is saying...but have a question about how piecing together those few plastic intake parts could restrict the flow just enough to help create a vacuum....love--LOVE--the drawings...the principles should be in a sticky in the parts/construction forums for simplicitons like me...thanks.


Thanks Judy. I also know nothing about how these things work in detail. Flow, suction, priming, vacuum... Sadly, I don't know enough about all those to troubleshoot what's going on with the thing. I'm super glad people here are able to see what I'm doing enough to offer sound advice - which so far has been spot on in helping me. Through trial and error, I think I've finally got this thing to work with the help of those who have been offering their advice and knowledge. 

I agree that there should be a sticky somewhere about the mechanics of pumps, powerheads and filters, as well as some troubleshooting ideas. 

Being in architecture, its easiest for me to draw up a quick detail to show what I'm trying to say... glad you liked them


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