# frog farms



## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I was wondering if anyone knows where or have been to any panamanian pumilio farms. I would like to go at the end of summer and would really like to hit up some of the pumilio farms they have.
Jason


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

I know one of my friends on the IAD committee had told me that the "frog farms" in Panama were unwilling to let them visit. This is one of the reasons that they are hesistant to let these frogs into IAD. 

By not letting them visit the premises things seem very suspect.

Let us know what you come up with though. I will be down there next month and would love to do the same.

Chris


----------



## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Here check this out http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3941&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


----------



## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Jason,

If you actually find the farms, please take lots of pics. I've talked to one research scientist who was in Panama collecting frogs who says the farms are non-existant. Maybe he was asking the wrong people, but he said the children collect the frogs for the exporters and there are no frog-farms.


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

There are farms, but they are probably not what you think they are. I have talked to friend and a very reliable vendor here on the board that has made regular visits to the farms over the years and has told me a great deal about them. I couldn't tell you where they are and I wouldn't put him in the spot of being asked where they are, so you're kinda screwed in that aspect, but they are lines of enclosed greenhouses that they collect the frogs and put them into and then they harvest from later on.


----------



## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I know they exist its just a matter of tracking them down. There are people I can ask but I dont want to step on anyones toes. 
Jason


----------



## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Did anyone see my post? I know that may be a "state of the art" frog farm but i thought it would give people a reasonable look into somebodys farm.


----------



## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I saw it and its very interesting. You would think they would have a big plantation netted off.
Jason


----------



## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

I guess I just dont understand why anyone would post...I know someone who could tell you some farms in panama but I cant tell you his name? Why would you even post this? Its almost along the lines of being rude, saying that you know the answer to the question but you wont tell anyone? Maybe its just me but why bother even commenting that if it is of no help or importance to anyone? I dont want to start a fight or to get off topic but the question is clearly stated in the first post. I have been looking up frog farms in south america with little or no luck, but I will be going to Costa Rica in a month or two. A foreign exchange student of ours lives there and maybe he could possibly give me some information leading me in the right direction so I could help you answer your question. All I can do is try I guess. Mike


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

PDFanatic said:


> I guess I just dont understand why anyone would post...I know someone who could tell you some farms in panama but I cant tell you his name? Why would you even post this? Its almost along the lines of being rude, saying that you know the answer to the question but you wont tell anyone? Maybe its just me but why bother even commenting that if it is of no help or importance to anyone?


This is a subject that tends to create a lot of emotion and controversy. At times people choose to exercise discretion particularly if they are not the first person source of said information...perhaps not totally satisfactory but understandable given the circumstances.

Bill


----------



## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

I know pretty much zero about frog farms and I guess I could understand that people who are importing wouldn't want someone going to someone they are doing business with. I have read quite a few posts on other boards of people saying that there are no such things as frog farms to begin with? What is the deal with that, obviously we all know they really do exist.


----------



## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Abe Lincoln?


----------



## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

That almost had something to do with the subject of "Frog Farms". Stick to the subject and there wont be any problems with that.


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

PDFanatic said:


> I guess I just dont understand why anyone would post...I know someone who could tell you some farms in panama but I cant tell you his name? Why would you even post this?


It's called respect. When someone tells you something in confidence and asks that their name not be connected with it, but you know they are legit, you respcet their wishes and don't name your sources. My post to the question was because Josh said that he had heard from a few sources that frog farms didn't really exist. I offered up one person's description who has been there without saying their name because they respectfully asked me not to tie them to it. 



PDFanatic said:


> I dont want to start a fight or to get off topic but


I've noticed you have made this exact same comment in no less than three threads in the past week or so... see a pattern? 
I have noticed that you have taken issue with a number of my post (or maybe everyones post... but I have noticed mine)... if there is an issue, PM me, don't waste thread space like you just made me do...

Jason,
The problem you are going to face is that the farms don't want people coming. They aren't trying to drum up business. Why, I have my specualtions, but I have been told by a number of people that they want to keep a very low profile and deal with only specific vendors, but I'm sure they have their reasons. Chances are very good that unless you could present yourself to one of the farms American contacts as a potential large scale buyer (I'm talking 100's of frogs), then you would never even know the persons name who runs the farm, much less ever see them. Getting the American side contact is not that hard... it's getting to the actual farm itself that is the challenge. They just don't want to be found and in all honesty I am surprised that the pic of the farm that have been posted in the past ever actually made it to this board... sorry to be a downer


----------



## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Well it goes hand in hand everytime I make a comment people take it as being threatening so I guess that I need to specify my intentions on posts otherwise the whole board goes up in a rucus. I just didnt see a point in saying, "I know someone who could basically lead you to a frog farm, but, I cant tell you who it is." What is the point in saying that at all? Unless you were willing to pm him with the name why bother even saying that you know someone. Its basically worthless information based upon the info he is seeking. Which would be someones name, a contact, etc. I know that the farms want to keep a low profile and the people who are importing from them dont want other people taking from their business and that is obvious. I havent said that more than once or twice in the last week. In the last thread you took my comments that u thought were directed at yourself way to personal. This isnt a big deal, I was just asking a question on why you would make a statement on this thread like you did if it had nothing to do with helping lead jason to a person/farm to visit on his trip.


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> "I know someone who could basically lead you to a frog farm, but, I cant tell you who it is." What is the point in saying that at all?


If you look at the context of his original post, this comment goes towards the existance of the farms, which is what was being discussed/debated at the time and therefore his point. He chose not to post the name out of respect for that person, but mentioned he knew someone to lend credibility to his statement on the existance of the farms. 

EricG.NH


----------



## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

UmbraSprite said:


> Abe Lincoln?


It's been credited to several, and in many cases anon. Sounds like Twain to me, but not sure.


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

First of all....to whom it may concern.

Where there is smoke there is usually fire.

As for the quote...I have it on my board in my office...but I forget where I read it was Abe. Who knows really though...the internet isn't always a great place to get facts.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

sbreland said:


> There are farms, but they are probably not what you think they are. I have talked to friend and a very reliable vendor here on the board that has made regular visits to the farms over the years and has told me a great deal about them. I couldn't tell you where they are and I wouldn't put him in the spot of being asked where they are, so you're kinda screwed in that aspect, but they are lines of enclosed greenhouses that they collect the frogs and put them into and then they harvest from later on.


Hmmm...so do they know for a fact that the frogs are "farming" in there and they don't have to go and replenish them every once in a while?


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

That, honestly, is a point that has been up for debate and I do not know. I don't know that I have ever heard any proof leaning one way or the other, but the thought seems to be that they do send off offspring produced at the farm, but that there may also be some wild caughts mixed in there too. I'm not sure so won't comment one way or the other but this is likely going ot be one of those "trade secrets" and one of those things you'd have to weigh morally for yourself to decide you belief


----------



## Filip (Jan 12, 2006)

Hi! 
In Europe it is commonly assumed that only a very small part of the so-called farmbred frogs are actually farmbred. These farms will probably exist, but most of their 'offspring' would still be harvested in the same way large smugglers do: let kids collect them in the wild for a penny. 

Personally I think there would be less smoke if there weren't any fire and the strong emotions in this thread only strenghten this feeling.


----------



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

As to the existence of farms read the following thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3941

There are many reasons (of which I will not go into) why these farms are private and why they don't really offer "tours" of their facilities to outsiders.


----------



## Brandon Knowles (Mar 23, 2007)

George Elliot


----------



## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Brandon Knowles said:


> George Elliot


What does that have to do with anything?


----------



## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

PDFanatic said:


> Well it goes hand in hand everytime I make a comment people take it as being threatening so I guess that I need to specify my intentions on posts otherwise the whole board goes up in a rucus.


"I know pretty much zero..." <-- I think thats funny. 

Well does this tell you anything. That everytime you post people take it as an obnoxious threatening post? hmm makes you wonder.


Anyways as far as frog farms, I think they exist but I think the farmers realize that it it's not that steady for income while people only import them every once and a while. I figure it's not there only job and therefor they dont have much of a reason to publicize about it. Furthermore down in SA they are just another animal so unless the farmers are truly didicated to the animals they probably dont care too much. It would be like us setting up cages and breeding fence lizards/blue bellys but not everyone thinks of that. <-- All that is just sort of theorized but i think it makes some sense... :lol:


----------



## Brandon Knowles (Mar 23, 2007)

> UmbraSprite wrote:
> Abe Lincoln?
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

Brandon Knowles said:


> > UmbraSprite wrote:
> > Abe Lincoln?
> >
> >
> > ...


Interesting! Doesn't sound like something a woman would say. Neither did her other stuff, not that I've read much of it mind you.


----------



## SNDF (Mar 23, 2006)

Jason and everyone, this conversation has been on and on many times. We can say that the Exporter that we work with is not available at the door waiting for guests to come to his facility. His has a Breeding facility, not a pet shop open to the public. It is not a place where you can go to sneak around and take pictures.

If that is a reason to think that the Farm is not legit, ok it is up to you.

All we know is that his door is only open for the inspectors to do their inspections every couple of weeks. As far as we know SNDF and one other importer have been allowed into his facility.

Chris, if the farm in Panama is suspect because they do not allow visitors then our SNDF breeding facility must also be suspect because we don't allow visitors either. We have a 2000 sq. ft. warehouse that is a breeding facility and many times we have had to refuse customers request to come by our facility because we are not open to the public.

Josh, if your research scientist told you that the farms are non-existent, then please explain where all this information that has been open to the public as of Nov 17, 2004 from Rob Melancon came from. We now have more proof that the farm has been expanding for the past few years. Here are more pictures for the people who are interested. 

Please stop the speculations. Please stop going after people for no reason. God, just enjoy the beautiful frogs that we and other importers have brought to the hobby.

You should know that hundreds of frogs die each month from the German smugglers and others. Each month we hear about people that get caught at the airports with smuggled frogs crammed into film canisters.

One suggestion or recommendation, if you what to go to Panama and take pictures of frogs that you don't have, frogs that are not available in the hobby, frogs that are, but you can not afford to buy. GO to the forest, to the jungle, the Islands etc. and take all the pictures you what. With that you will have a amazing vacation, a relaxing time and feel STRESS FREE.

Valentina & Marcus
SNDF

*These photos by SNDF can not be reproduced or copied without the expressed permission of SNDF. *

Auratus Eggs










Tadpole system










Pumilio cages



















Pumilio greenhouse



















Auratus cages


----------



## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Thank you Marcus and Valentina for clearing this all up. I totally understand about not wanting the public to be at the farms. I just thought it would be nice to see the farm if I was down there. Now I know I cant and thats fine.
Jason


----------



## Brandon Knowles (Mar 23, 2007)

thats one hellatious tadpole setup!!!! Not being familiar with those broms , are the deposition cups about the size of shot glasses? Apparently the frogs are prone to using them when there are plenty of natural broms around and it makes for easier viewing.


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

As for me Marcus....

I have no interest in visiting farms...particularly while I am on vacation! I will be kicking back on a boat sipping wine and making the occasional landfall to record some wildlife.

My only input came from the feedback from the IAD committee a few weeks back about the farms that are up and running now. They aren't willing to allow many of these Panamanian pums because they claim they weren't able to have an inspector visit the site. I can only assume that they are not meeting this resistance from the sites in Peru and that is why we will likely see those animals allowed at the next IAD.

Me...I am with you. I think its great we are getting the opportunity to work with these frogs. The only downside are the prices although this probably helps keep them from falling into inexperienced hands as often. 
As long as they are healthy and not contributing to the demise of extremely threatened species then I sleep just fine at night. 

I enjoy my frogs...but most of all I want to be able to go see them in the wild...not on a farm.

Chris


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

SNDF said:


> One suggestion or recommendation, if you what to go to Panama and take pictures of frogs that you don't have, frogs that are not available in the hobby, frogs that are, but you can not afford to buy. GO to the forest, to the jungle, the Islands etc. and take all the pictures you what. With that you will have a amazing vacation, a relaxing time and feel STRESS FREE.


Always nice when a little bit of common sense creeps onto the DB 8) 

Bill


----------



## SNDF (Mar 23, 2006)

Your welcome Jason, we normally don’t like to participate in the posts but because of the subject of the post we felt we had some good information to share.

Brandon, the greenhouses are a very good size: 25x35 feet. If you look closer at the picture you can see that on one piece of wood there are little 3 oz. cups and on the other the medium size glasses. The cups are to give them more options and leave it up to them to decide. The pumilio do put Tadpoles there, we have seen them. They are well planted for the frogs to feel as free as possible.

Chris, the only inspectors allowed to do inspections in their farm are from the Panamanian government. Not for a group of peoples how run a show. IAD is not Fish and Wildlife or the government from Panama. IAD refused to allow any imports that have been breed in farms. The reason why they allowed us to sell the Peruvian frogs is because we sent them proof that this group of frogs were breed in Canada from Mark Pepper. IAD made a decision and we respected that decision. We are just a vendor at the show. We had enough frogs to sell there without the Panama Pumilio. We got to meet lots of nice peoples and that was our main reason for going there. 

Concerning the price we are selling these frogs for. Let me tell you that we have allot of work, money, time and effort put into these frogs before you get them into your hands. We are not just a wholesaler bringing these frogs in. We have been working with the Panamanian exporter for over 3 years to be able to bring these different Pumilio to the hobby. Site data was never a consideration before, as an example.

Time to go to work. No more cha cha.

Valentina & Marcus
SNDF


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

No doubt that I appreciate your efforts Marcus....

I know very well all the hidden costs when running an operation like this. Thanks for your insight and look forward to seeing more beautiful frogs from you!


----------



## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

amazing tadpole system!!!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A relevent article http://www.springerlink.com/content/b013x81t3306565k/fulltext.pdf


----------

