# Tadpole study



## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Well as many of you know I used to put my tads in 16oz cups with lids and use a methelyne blue/water solution. Lately I have been noticing not to great morph out times and dying tads. So I have been doing a study on my Amy tads. The first clutch in the study was 6 eggs of which all turned to tads. 2 tads went into aged tap water with pin oak leaves. The other 4 tads went into the traditional meth. blue mix I always used. Now the 2 in pin oak are doing great while the 4 which is now 3 in the meth are about half the size. The second clutch in my study also had six tads. 2 with aged tap and pin oak, 2 in aged tap and live oak and the last 2 in just plain old aged tap. This batch just went in last week so all tads pretty much look the same still. So what I have noticed so far with the 12 tads is the pin oak works the best. All tads are being fed the same day, the same time and the same amount and all next to each other. Temps and lighting are all exactly the same. I plan on doing an ongoing study on these tads for the next couple of months and will post results every week to keep everyone updated. If someone local has a pair of anything that is producing 10+ eggs in a clutch I would love to get a couple clutches for my test. I think 2 large clutches is all I would need and would be willing to trade or pay for them.
My next step is to get some large clutches and try all sorts of leaves, water level, lids verse no lids and feeding. I also plan on trying this with some indian almond leaves to see what happens with those. If anyone local has anything they can donate as far as a large clutch please pm me. I will pay if need be.
J


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## Petersi (Jan 31, 2008)

Sound like a cool experiment. I haven't used methyl blue in any of my tadpole cups instead I have used peat extract. I think it would be more interesting if you switch to the peat instead of pine oak leafs. Since it is something we can all pick of from any fish store.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I was thinking about trying some other stuff as well. Maybe some black water extract also.
J


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Great info Jason. I'm doing similar tests with Betta Spa/spring vs plain spring water.I also have indian almond leaves in some. I just started with the last few clutches, so if there are any noticeable changes I will post them!


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## dirtmonkey (Feb 10, 2007)

This makes perfect sense to me, as a chemical solution might reduce the natural gut flora needed for efficient digestion and proper nutrition.

V


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

Interesting study. I'll be tagging along with this one. For the record I usually boil oak leaves and use the water from them. Live oak is what I'm using right now and it seems to be working just fine. I'm also throwing a live oak leaf in with the tads.

Do you use meth blue on the eggs?


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## RPN (Mar 25, 2007)

Great information here Jason.
I'll also be tagging along on this one. 
Can you include what you are feeding and when?
Sorry if I'm a pain in the a$$, I really like this post.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I stopped using meth blue on the eggs, just straight up aged tap water misted ever couple days. I feed fish flakes and tadpole bites about once a week. Just looked at the tads again this afternoon and the one in with the leaves are twice the size of the ones in the meth blue. I plan on doing more tests but unfortunately I dont have any frogs that lay large clutches. If anyone local has any clutches of 10-15 please let me know. I also plan on doing this with lids and without to see if that makes a difference.
J


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

I have been doing a study also, 

I have used spagnum moss instead of leaves, i cannot believe the difference, just having something in the water makes, compared to nothing in the water at all, i do not use any chemicals.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Quick update since I was looking to see when I started the first study. Well the first clutch is still going good. The tads with the pin oak are starting to sprout back legs now, not to bad for about 1.5 months. The other tads with just plain water are half the size of the tads with the leaves. All 5 tads have been coloring up. So what I noticed so far is leaves will atleast grow larger tads.
I just picked up some pairs of tincs to try this on. Hopefully I can get a nice size clutch close to 10 eggs. I would like to do plain water, meth. solution, pin oak leaves, indian almond leaves and magnolia leaves with both lids and no lids to see what happens. I am thinking the winner will be pin oak or indian almond leaves without lids on the containers.
Anyone else have any new ideas or findings?
J


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

With my Tinc tads I used Indian Almond leaves in all of them. But in 1 of them I had Salvinia natans covering the surface. I always saw the tad munching on the roots. By the time his back legs popped all the roots were gone. He was the first out of the water and the biggest by far. I fed pretty much the same as you did, maybe twice a week though

I don't know if that was a coincidence or not, and I don't have anymore Salvinia natans to try it with my current tads


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## Leidig (Apr 10, 2009)

This is a great thread for everyone who wants to raise tads. I'm very interested to see more results from these experiments. Keep us posted.


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

I used some regular aged water in a couple cups and a couple with tad tea. Both sets have 1 or 2 live oak leaves. These tads went into the water mid november. The plain water tads are actually 2/3 the size of the tad tea ones!


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Jason,
Good study. If I can suggest keeping the study as simple as possible with fewer treatments and as many replicates as possible per clutch(3 treatments with a clutch of 9-12 eggs) . Always include the control so you can do comparisons. Collect data. Weed out the obvious worst and keep the best treatments after a minimum of 3 repeats. 
It will take longer to test all the variables but you'll get sound results.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i personally would like to see an extension of this experiment with water changes. perhaps once a day/ once every 3days/ once a week/ and once a month. everyone has a differing opinion on this and i personally feel it has quite a bit to do with tad size.

more ideas, could be (as already suggested) live plants such as java moss (in addition to the leaves), and food items, algae/ drowned insects/etc.

james


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I just had a posting for terribilis help. my terribilis are laying eggs every 5 days in bloomsbury NJ. I havent bred dart frogs in over 15 yrs. I would be willing to give up a clutch but I also would like to get a successful froglet first. My email is [email protected]


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

i just pulled a batch of terribilis eggs I would be willing to give up providing I get back some froglets. Rumor has it your in flemington. I would have to deliver them to night and kill 2 birds with one stone. So I can stop at the local fridays and bag a cold one as well. John


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Your welcome to stop by if you want. Whats the clutch size? I can definately give you the froglets if and when they morph out.
J


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Jason, 15 eggs, here is my email [email protected]. I would need your address so i can gps it. What time would be good? Would i be able to see your setups? thanks john


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## prolawn_care (Dec 26, 2009)

I usally use indian almond leaves in my tapole water along with some duck weed on top of the water and a small amount of java moss and the tads seem to eat the duckweed because it disappears in 2 weeks time and i add more until i see back legs. I usally have a complete morph rate of about 7 weeks.

Good luck! I'll be watching this thread!


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## gillenws (Jul 13, 2009)

i've been following this thread and wondering what the idea is behind the pin oak leaves in the water. can you use any type of leaf, like magnolia? or is there something special about pin oak and indian almond leaves?


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

That one of the things I am trying to determine with the study. If leaves, water type, lids verse no lids and so on makes a difference in morph time and size.
J


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

I have always had the best results from using bottled spring water with pink oak leaves.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

gillenws said:


> i've been following this thread and wondering what the idea is behind the pin oak leaves in the water. can you use any type of leaf, like magnolia? or is there something special about pin oak and indian almond leaves?


The idea behind pin oak leaves is that they contain a high amount of tannins (acids) which leech out into the water and help keep bacteria down.


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## Marc (Feb 3, 2008)

Good study.

What is the temp range on this?

Marc


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

So far its been room temp, about 68-71.
J


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Jason,

Are you doing water changes or are you just adding?


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Maybe the tads in cups with stuff in them are bigger because they don't have to use so much of their energy to always swim around. They can sort of anchor themselves to a leaf or a plant sometimes and just chill.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

No water changes yet Jeff. After I do all the types of leaves I was going to go to water type, water changes and then lids verse no lids. Thinking about it this will probably end up taking about a year total. Hopefully less if I can get some more breeding going.
J


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

this is great. 

please take pics and keep a journal as i think the findings would be a GREAT sticky!

james


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

james67 said:


> this is great.
> 
> please take pics and keep a journal as i think the findings would be a GREAT sticky!
> 
> james


Agreed!

Keep it up..

Richie


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

I have been working on this same thing with my theloderma asperum tads.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Eric Walker said:


> I have been working on this same thing with my theloderma asperum tads.


Please let us know what you have been doing. I would have to assume the results will pretty close with all tads, especially dart tads.
J


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

Well i dont use leaves in the water for added tannens or things like that, but I have been keeping some tads right from the getgo in distilled water, some in RO and some using only water from the adults cages. I have been keeping some in the frog room from all 3 groups which stays between 69 and 72 and another group in my spare room where the pythons are kept which stays a bit warmer, around 75-76. 

not much of a difference between RO and distilled, but the tads kepted warmer have grown much faster. I have tads that are all about a 2-3 weeks from morphing out that are 3, 4 , and 5 months old. the ones 3 months old were kepted warmer and are the same size as the ones kepted cooler that are 5 months. 


also the tads that were kepted in water from the adults cage got a much quicker start but slowed down after the initial growth spurt.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I noticed raising the terribilis tads in small groups they grow much quicker then raising them individually?


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

Was that in the same volume? Individually kept tadpoles usually have less room to swim, that could explain it.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Hmmm the multi tad container is slightly larger then the single tad container.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Just a quick update, the first clutch of eggs are now just 4 tads. The 2 with pin oak leaves are 3 times the size of the 2 with regular aged tap water. First and second clutches with pin oak all have back legs while the others have color are much smaller and no legs yet. So to this point we are about 2 and a half months. Once I get some larger clutches from tincs I will start expanding the tests to other factors like more types of leaves, water type, amount of water and lids verse no lids.
J


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

Any updates on this study? I'm still very interested, so please keep us posted!


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason DeSantis said:


> I was thinking about trying some other stuff as well. Maybe some black water extract also.
> J


I was just about to ask about that.

I love this experiment and will be looking forward to seeing more results. There are a LOT of variables here. What is your control? Meth blue? In the 4 years I was breeding tincs, vents and auratus, I never, ever used meth. blue for anuything. All of my tads went into aged tap or bottled spring water with pin oak leaves. I would also add black water extract to gallon jugs of spring water. I always had great results with the tads and they morphed in great time. 
I'm now wondering if it is the oak leaves that they are consuming that helps with the development or if it is something else in the water? Hopefully your experiment will shed more light on the subject.
Keep it up!


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Not really much to update at this point. I think this is going to take along time to do. The first clutch in the study did not show anything definative. The 2 tads in with the oak leaves are just now coming out of the water while the other 2 with plain water still only have back legs. They are all now the same size except the leg thing. I want to try this with some RO water and a fish tank with a filter. I think since I have heavy minerals in my tap water the only real way to get true results is to use RO or bottled water. Once I figure out the water thing I wanted to move onto feeding. Feed some tads just certain food and other something else to see what that does. Im sure evey couple months I will be posting something but at this point not much one way or another.
J


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

you could get ro and add ro-right or something similar to a large sealed batch to keep the consistency while still leaving some minerals.

james


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

so many variablers to test. The leaf data is quite interesting on its own.


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

There have been many tadpole studies done over the decades in this hobby. One study in the late 80's showed the use of distilled water on eggs would actually make the eggs swell and explode. (I never tried the distilled water test, this was an article in an I.S.S.D. newsletter) Tadpole tea was invented in the very late 80's and showed great promise and some forms of it are used to this day up to commercially available "Black water extract". Then along came for a second time sterile water methods, (reverse osmosis, etc.) and frogs for the majority didn't fare to well long term. (I tried the reverse osmosis method and had good results) I found one method that was constant for me over the years and that was rain water caught in a few barrels that I would scoop out and it included dropped leaf products and left in open sunlight had small daphnia and a bit of algae growing in each barrel. Another barrel contained duckweed, etc. I would feed my tads such things as blood worms or spirulina depending on type of tad being grown. I have tried other methods, but found the only best method for me is the same as in nature; good old rain water (constantly pH tested) that sits in a barrel for a while and I use an eye-dropper to add water to the cups and until it over flows for a few seconds ever 2-3 days to replicate rainfall and the newly added nutrients would have the tads go wild. Also heat plays a huge role in how quickly a frog morphs into a froglet. I never played tricks with heat, but some other froggers in the past would try and increase the temps up to 10 degress (submersible heater) in a tray full of plastic tad cups and their frogs morphed faster and bigger but mortality rate was higher up to a six month otw froglet. Wow, it's late and I'm rambling.. good luck with all your testing and remember to communicate your findings with the hobby.. Peter Keane


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Wow, for all the years i sprayed eggs w/ distilled water I`ve never had this happen.



Peter Keane said:


> There have been many tadpole studies done over the decades in this hobby. One study in the late 80's showed the use of distilled water on eggs would actually make the eggs swell and explode.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> Wow, for all the years i sprayed eggs w/ distilled water I`ve never had this happen.


I've seen this with treefrog eggs before. It's not cool. I just use spring water now just in case.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Are you sure the eggs weren`t bad to begin with and explode from bacterial activity?



jubjub47 said:


> I've seen this with treefrog eggs before. It's not cool. I just use spring water now just in case.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

in a hypoosmotic solution cells take in excess h20 to regulate balance of salts to equilibrium between the soluton and the cell. its quite possible for cells to explode from this.


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

I've been noting the morphtimes of my tadpoles in the *old setup:*
- no lids, plastic containers with compartments of 5x5x4 cm per tadpole
- little java moss and oak leave in each compartment.
- spring water, no tadpole tea.
- water changes every two weeks or so for half of the water in the container.
- fishfood every week or so.
- no heating (average temp. about 20 degrees Celsius)
_Average morphtime ventrimaculata: 182 days
average morphtime vanzolinii:213 days
_
and in the *new setup*:
- one big container of 30 L, containing separate compartments of 5x5x4 cm with gauze on the bottom for watercirculation.
- little java moss and oak leave in each compartment.
- tadpole tea (boiled oak and occasional beech leeves)
- water changes every month or so for about 1/3 of the big container
- fishfood every week, sometimes more (refilled when previous food is all eaten).
- aquarium heater (daytime temp. 24 degrees Celsius, nighttime temp. 21 degrees Celsius)
- aquarium pump on the bottom of the big container (switched on at daytime and off at night)
_Average morphtime ventrimaculata:75 days
average morphtime vanzolinii: 73 days_

I've had the new setup running since february now and have not seen any abnormalities in the tadpoles raised in this system. Tadpole size is equal or even a litlle larger then in the old setup. Survival in especially vanzolinii seems slightly higher than in the old setup.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

Methylene blue is a bacteria static, and antifungal agent. It is not meant to be used for tadpole development. It will impede growth as well as bacterial gut flora. It will also lower o2 content in high amounts.

Daryl


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