# Beginner Breeder Question...



## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

SO - when breeding lets say D. leucomelas - is it "wrong" or "bad" to breed the fine spot to the standard? Or, do you need/want to keep the color variations breeding together within itself?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I believe 'fine spot' and 'standard' are different morphs. If so, they should not be mixed. I think the color variations are fine, within the same morph.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

It depends on the frog/morph. Some "designer" morphs (ie "fine spot" azureus) are ok to breed with a "normal" morph.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

That's what I would figure, but wanted to ask just to make sure - the species is the same, just different color mutation. It would be like me breeding an albino ball python to a pied ball python - the species is exactly the same, just different color mutation.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Fine spot leucs aren't the same as fine spot azureus. The azureus were line bred, within the same morph, to get that trait. The leucs are different morphs.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

Well i wouldn't breed the leucs and the azureus together - that wouldn't make sense because they aren't the same species. Fine spot to standard leuc is what I was predominantly thinking of...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

TyGuy said:


> Well i wouldn't breed the leucs and the azureus together - that wouldn't make sense because they aren't the same species. Fine spot to standard leuc is what I was predominantly thinking of...


That's what I mean. Fine spot azureus can be mixed with regular azureus. Fine spot leucs should not be mixed with standard leucs. It's all the same morph of azureus. It's 2 different morphs of leucs.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok - I understand what you're saying now. And what reasoning is there behind that if one is not hybridizing a species? I'm new to this so i'm just banging out questions, please don't take offense to anything I ask!


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

TyGuy said:


> Ok - I understand what you're saying now. And what reasoning is there behind that if one is not hybridizing a species? I'm new to this so i'm just banging out questions, please don't take offense to anything I ask!


Do a search about mixing, you will quickly have all your questions answered. If you are planning on breeding I feel like you should run the gauntlet of research. Short story is we want to preserve the natural lines of each color morph and frog.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

eyeviper said:


> Do a search about mixing, you will quickly have all your questions answered. If you are planning on breeding I feel like you should run the gauntlet of research. Short story is we want to preserve the natural lines of each color morph and frog.



I don't view this as a typical mixing thread. The original posted wants clarification on the two types of leucs. They are two separate types of leucs. The standard, banded, and small spot leucs should all be kept separate.

I.believe the azureus comparison is what through the posted back off track. A better example of same species but different morph that should also be kept separate would be the yellow, orange, and mint terribilis.

The ball pythons morphs are different than dart frog morphs. Ball pythons are selectively bred for dominant and recessive traits. In dart frogs, each wild type look is considered a morph, usually based on location found. So in the wild, you will have those types of leucs mentioned found at different locations. The azureus example mentioned is similar to your ball pythons as it is a line bred trait and goes against the norm in the dartfrog hobby.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

I really don't think you could have explained that any better! Thank you for the information - good to know! I will definitely keep all of that in mind.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

frogface said:


> That's what I mean. Fine spot azureus can be mixed with regular azureus. Fine spot leucs should not be mixed with standard leucs. It's all the same morph of azureus. It's 2 different morphs of leucs.


No flame war desired. I just really want to know the answer. How do we know the various Leucs are different, seperate morphs?


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

BrianWI said:


> No flame war desired. I just really want to know the answer. How do we know the various Leucs are different, seperate morphs?


Different importation, therefore different location...at least that's the assumption. I don't have any specific facts on that though.

For the OP...just another thought, because of the current culture that exists in the dart frog hobby, if you were to post a froglet for sale that was a cross between a standard leuc and a fine spot look, it would be worth less and harder to sell than either a standard leuc or a fine spot alone. I can't really make an argument that crossing morphs is "bad" or "wrong", but it isn't profitable.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TyGuy said:


> I really don't think you could have explained that any better! Thank you for the information - good to know! I will definitely keep all of that in mind.


I don't know if this helps it any, typically (with a few exceptions), in the dart frog hobby, morph is the same as population. This means that the animals in question may actually be from distant locations. For example in tinctorius from the Sipaliwini Savanna region have been seperated for a long period (estimated to be close to 10,000 years) see for details http://bnoonan.org/Papers/Noonan_Gaucher_06.pdf (free access). 

As a result, we have a risk of outbreeding depression (which is documented to occur in anurans (see for example, http://www.environmental-expert.com/Files\6063\articles\5372\LV68M29432114864.pdf (again free access)) and can be a real threat to a captive population. 

As a result, outcrossing populations (morphs) of many dendrobatids is a risk since outbreeding depression can take up to 5 generations for the full effects to be seen. This is one of the main ways in which the ideas in this hobby differ from those in the ball python hobby. As a further discussion point, in general genetics of the ball pythons (except for highly inbred lines), are fairly robust since captive hatched babies from the wild population are abundently available allowing a relatively easy outcross to restore some of the genetic variation. Many of the dendrobatid populations in captivity are closed since the actual site of collection is unknown and in more than few cases, not going to be reimported (except for possible smuggled animals). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

BrianWI said:


> No flame war desired. I just really want to know the answer. How do we know the various Leucs are different, seperate morphs?


I am not a scientist or a zoologist (or a mathematician  ) , so, I have to rely on information from others. The general consensus, of folks who's opinions I trust, is that they are separate morphs. 

Here's a write up from Josh's Frogs: http://www.joshsfrogs.com/frogs/all-poison-dart-frogs/dendrobates-leucomelas-1.html

Josh's Frogs seems to suggest that the Fine Spot is a trait. That is contrary to what some others say. I do trust Josh's knowledge, and Zack's, so not sure what to think, except that maybe it's better to err on the side of caution.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

It has been discussed on here many times that we really need to be using the wording properly. Morph and population are different and should be used respectively. The fine spot leucs were from different imports than the standards, are smaller and obviously have different patterns, and they breed true. So they should be kept separate. However, the fine spot azureus are from the same lines as the standards, and are simply a phenotype/morph of the whole azureus population. These should be mixed with all azureus.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

> The fine spot leucs were from different imports than the standards, are smaller and obviously have different patterns, and they breed true.


Do we know the different imports were from different locales for certain? Do we know the numbers imported of each? Again, please, no flame wars, I really am just putting together the information.

As far as the OD, I don't know that it can be a blanket statement for all populations. The other thread is covering that. However, in the population cited, do the environments of the isolated populations differ considerably?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

BrianWI said:


> Do we know the different imports were from different locales for certain? Do we know the numbers imported of each? Again, please, no flame wars, I really am just putting together the information.


No, but considering the huge range, different size, radically different patterns, and the fact they breed true, it is a very obvious assumption they are. Also in Europe they call the small spots 'Bolivar' because of the area they come from.


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## ConFuCiuZ (Jul 13, 2011)

If you click on this link Dendrobates leucomelas 'Fine Spot' - Dendrobates leucomelas | Josh's Frogs It mentions* "There are at least 2 lines of 'Fine Spot' Leucomelas in the United States. These animals descend from frogs brought into the United States by Sean Stewart, and represent a distinct population of Leucomelas in the wild."*

I do agree with Frogface they are different morphs. 




frogface said:


> I am not a scientist or a zoologist (or a mathematician  ) , so, I have to rely on information from others. The general consensus, of folks who's opinions I trust, is that they are separate morphs.
> 
> Here's a write up from Josh's Frogs: Dendrobates leucomelas at Josh's Frogs
> 
> Josh's Frogs seems to suggest that the Fine Spot is a trait. That is contrary to what some others say. I do trust Josh's knowledge, and Zack's, so not sure what to think, except that maybe it's better to err on the side of caution.


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