# What is the most valuable frog in your collection?



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

I thought it would be nice to find out what the most expensive frog is (or WAS) in your collection. The most valuable frog in my frog room is my Azureus. But that is because it is the ONLY frog in my collection. lol I'm going to get Varaderos next, so I guess you could count that


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

None of mine have been particularly expensive. They range from free to about 80 bucks. But they are all valuable because they make me happy


----------



## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

I would have to say my A. Bassleri at $125. 

___________________________________


----------



## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

Grannie, then Blue jeans


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

nice thread


----------



## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

Orange terribilis. Other than the frogs in my back yard they are the only frogs I keep.


----------



## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

My benedicta for sure.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Standard lamasi


----------



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, the ones that I like the most have the most value.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

IMO there is a difference between a valuable frog and an expensive one.


----------



## cowboy232350 (Mar 14, 2011)

Mine is a male leuc I have. He wasn't expensive but he is my favorite frog!


----------



## FRISCHFROGS (Jan 15, 2012)

My vanzos are Gems and (almost) priceless to me.


----------



## Frogman8 (Sep 28, 2010)

Definitly my 4 yr old female BYH


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

My son's Fowler's Toad. If something were to happen to it, his world would assuredly end... I guess that places a heavy value on it for sure 

JBear


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Ugh! Ugh! Ugh!


----------



## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

My diamond-encrusted, solid-platinum bullfrog paperweight.....not really. Who really cares how much a frog costs? If you like it, that's all the value it needs.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

fieldnstream said:


> Who really cares how much a frog costs?


My wife... lol


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

LOL! Clowns. I was value to the value it had to you and the price. I started this thread in order to expand my library of dart frog species. And for ideas as to what I want to upgrade to in the future.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The ones I am watching at any given moment...... 

Ed


----------



## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Monetary value: benedicta and blue jeans (BJs are paid for but not yet in my possession, apparently Rich is having a calling male shortage)

Enjoyment value: Any of the imitators.... Varadero/Intermedius/CV/Tarapoto are all tied for my favorite. The Solarte come in a close second... but as an aside, I enjoy every frog I keep, or it wouldn't be worth owning them.


----------



## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Its not the single most expensive but I'd say my LaFumee tinc pair is the most valuable. After getting a pair I was sure I ended up with two males. Traded the "male" for a female only to discover I was wrong and now had two females. Bought two more males, both came in in bad shape. One died soon after and the other took over a year to get it back up to par before pairing "him" off. Got the replacement for the one that died. That one IS a male. Now I have a pair and two females. After the cost of the frogs and the amount I paid for shipping, all just to end up with a pair.


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

This French chick that comes by a couple of times a month.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I prefer not to see people wanting to "upgrade." It feels like that takes some kind of intrinsic value away from "beginner frogs." You shouldn't have to upgrade, nor should you use your "beginner frogs" as stepping stones. If you don't love the frogs you have, then you have the wrong frogs (or you're in the wrong hobby), and if you love the frogs you have there's no need to desire an "upgrade" (these are lives, not computers).

I've paid ridiculous amounts of money per frogs. Each time I tell myself I've hit my cap on what I'll pay per frogs, but lately I've been offered more and more expensive frogs.... My bank account is in ruins right now. What am I going to do next week when Frog Day comes around?


----------



## Paul G (Feb 27, 2007)

Every frog in my collection is valuable to me regardless of what I paid for them.
From my dullish (to some) Campana auratus to my striking Blue truncatus.

I do tend to have a higher affection for the frogs that have complex lineages and/or neat hobby history.


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

stemcellular said:


> Well, the ones that I like the most have the most value.


I get the point you're trying to make with answers like this, but why not play along and say which ones you like the most and why?

I don't plan on purchasing any frogs based on their current or potential future monetary value (unless they're more than I can afford). However, I'm the kind of guy that enjoys one or 2 nice displays in my living room as opposed to a room full of breeding boxes so I'd like to know why people like their favorite frogs - it might help me decide what other species to get one day.

That said, it's also interesting to know how much people pay for some frogs =)


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok then!

My most treasured frog is my male Lorenzo, because he was my very first dart frog. Additionally, Lorenzos are difficult to find and very difficult to breed. This makes him all the more special, because I fear the loss of Lorenzos in the hobby. I'm trying very hard to successfully breed him with my female Lorenzo. So, yea, they hold special 'value' to me.

Now for expensive. I really want a pair of pumilio Black Jeans. Did some frog sitting for a pair, last year, and they were absolutely gorgeous frogs. I had no idea they were so beautiful. Pics just do not capture. That said, these frogs are too expensive for me, atm, so I'm starting a Black Jeans fund.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Mine is very rare. I didn't smuggle him. More like kidnapped
















But then I went a step further and crossed him with a pig and wound up with this


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Shinosuke said:


> I get the point you're trying to make with answers like this, but why not play along and say which ones you like the most and why?
> 
> I don't plan on purchasing any frogs based on their current or potential future monetary value (unless they're more than I can afford). However, I'm the kind of guy that enjoys one or 2 nice displays in my living room as opposed to a room full of breeding boxes so I'd like to know why people like their favorite frogs - it might help me decide what other species to get one day.
> 
> That said, it's also interesting to know how much people pay for some frogs =)


Clears throat preparing to get onto a soap box again....

One of the downsides to threads like these is that they help feed the popularity trends in the hobby since cost of a frog or frogs is often linked to percieved rareness and demand for that frog and status for owning that frog. 

Typically the nice displays aren't driven by the frogs that are kept in them but by the plants and design aesthetics. If they were driven by the frogs, we wouldn't see larger terrestrial species that do not utilize phytotemlata as deposition sites kept in tanks with heavy bromeliad plantings on the backgrounds (and/or the sides)....... 

Ed


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Kris - I've never seen black jeans in person but you're right, they don't look like much in the pictures I've seen. Maybe there will be some at the show this weekend that I can check out!

Ed - You very well may be right about feeding trends but do you think it hurts the hobby so much that we shouldn't discuss prices in the open?

Side note, tincs may not use brom phytotemlata (awesome word, btw) for deposition sites but that doesn't mean they can't use the plants for other things, like a convenient place to chill out and enjoy a tasty skin-snack!










BTW that is my "most valuable" frog. It was sold to me as a dwarf french guiana tinc and cost the exact same as my other 2 frogs but it seems to have the most personality.


----------



## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't really have a "collection" per say, but these are what I put in my display tank, so I guess I value them more than my intermedius since they get to go in the big playground.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

This is not aimed at the OP or anyone who has posted so far... It really annoys me when I see people who only two weeks ago had no knowledge about dart frogs, and are in a matter of days posting frogs for sale in the classifieds. I've followed many threads where the subject discussed was the change in trends in regards to people suddenly going for the latest new craze, or frogs that were common became rare bcause they were so common nobody wanted them. Pisses me off. They are not GODDAMN BASEBALL CARDS!!!


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

jacobi said:


> Pisses me off. They are not _______ BASEBALL CARDS!!!


Stop holding back! I think you should tell us how you really feel about it


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Shinosuke said:


> Kris - I've never seen black jeans in person but you're right, they don't look like much in the pictures I've seen. Maybe there will be some at the show this weekend that I can check out!


Now hold on there. Mine don't look too shabby...

























I would say that the most valuable frogs I have, in the sense that I didn't mind paying a premium for them, are my bassleri "chrome blue/green" that I got from Understory this year. They are so incredibly stunning that I am relocating their viv to the living room where I can see them more frequently. They aren't the most expensive I've purchased, but I wouldn't sell them for twice what I paid.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Shinosuke said:


> Ed - You very well may be right about feeding trends but do you think it hurts the hobby so much that we shouldn't discuss prices in the open?


 
Discussing prices is one thing, discussing the most valuable, most desirable, etc is a whole different thing.... If the thread was what are people paying for X frog at Y size/age, it doesn't carry the connotations for status while allowing for discussion... 




Shinosuke said:


> Side note, tincs may not use brom phytotemlata (awesome word, btw) for deposition sites but that doesn't mean they can't use the plants for other things, like a convenient place to chill out and enjoy a tasty skin-snack!


Is that appropriate for the species or is it an artifact from adaption in captivity to artificial conditions (or in other words, the frog is making the best of the situation since it has some plasticity in it's behaviors)? 

While the tinctorious group can and does climb trees, that doesn't mean a densely planted enclosure is appropriate for them since in thier natural habitat they colonize openings in the forest canopy... and abandon them when they become overgrown... 

Ed


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

jacobi said:


> This is not aimed at the OP or anyone who has posted so far... It really annoys me when I see people who only two weeks ago had no knowledge about dart frogs, and are in a matter of days posting frogs for sale in the classifieds. I've followed many threads where the subject discussed was the change in trends in regards to people suddenly going for the latest new craze, or frogs that were common became rare bcause they were so common nobody wanted them. Pisses me off. They are not GODDAMN BASEBALL CARDS!!!


How about Pokemon? Can they be Pokemon? Gotta collect them all!


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I have never had the opportunity to visit French Guiana or study the habits of these little jewels in the wild so I don't know if they would prefer to hang out in a brom or if they would prefer to eat their skin in the naturally occurring 1/2 coconut shells with cute little circular doors that grow in those openings in the forest canopy. I wonder if thumbnail species prefer to lay in the film canisters mother nature provides in abundance in their natural habitats or if they're having to adapt to the ones we grow locally? 

All I know is that I now somehow feel like a jerk for providing a lush, planted environment for my pet. Thanks, Ed  

All kidding aside I had no idea their natural habitats were so different from what most people on here recommend as ideal to new folks like myself, that's something for me to think on. 

And, I see where you're coming from on the connotations of the discussion this thread was SUPPOSED to be about (before we jacked it). However I try to look at things in a more positive light and enjoy the conversation for what it is instead of focusing on how some people may abuse the information it contains.


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

Shinosuke, thank you very much! 
For those of you who seemed to be upset or worried. I apologize for the way I stated things in the original post. I worded things a little strangely thinking that nobody would take it wrong. I know that they aren't baseball cards, but you have to look at it in the light of the fact that I am asking these questions because I am a dart frog breeder. I want to know what people with a little more money are interested in and enjoy. Is that not how a business operates? Look at Understory Enterprises list of frogs that they breed. I can direct you to a list containing all the species and their costs. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely LOVE watching me darts! I LOVE their individual personalities! And that is why I want to breed them. Because I love them. 

I would like to restate what I said about wanting something to "upgrade" to. I should have said "I want something to EXPAND my breeding business with". That is what a business owner always does. It does not matter if he is selling plants, animals, electronics or cars.


----------



## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Any of my pairs that breed regular!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Shinosuke said:


> I have never had the opportunity to visit French Guiana or study the habits of these little jewels in the wild so I don't know if they would prefer to hang out in a brom or if they would prefer to eat their skin in the naturally occurring 1/2 coconut shells with cute little circular doors that grow in those openings in the forest canopy. I wonder if thumbnail species prefer to lay in the film canisters mother nature provides in abundance in their natural habitats or if they're having to adapt to the ones we grow locally?


How about reading up on thier behaviors and habitats in the wild? See (free access) http://www.revistasusp.sibi.usp.br/pdf/philo/v9n1/v9n1a02.pdf It's not like the information for many of these animals is unavailable... 

The cocohuts are actually a tool for further artificial manipulation of the frogs since thier major advantage is to encourage the frogs to lay eggs in locations where it is easier to remove them for artifical rearing.... the same for the film canisters..However, it should be noted that they approximate the natural situations that the frogs search for which is very different than the bromeliad issue with terrestrial species.... 




Shinosuke said:


> All kidding aside I had no idea their natural habitats were so different from what most people on here recommend as ideal to new folks like myself, that's something for me to think on.


Which is why I'm often offering advice that runs counter to the groups.. For example check out this thread... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/64745-difficulty-9.html#post564977 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Elliot said:


> Shinosuke, thank you very much!
> For those of you who seemed to be upset or worried. I apologize for the way I stated things in the original post. I worded things a little strangely thinking that nobody would take it wrong. I know that they aren't baseball cards, but you have to look at it in the light of the fact that I am asking these questions because I am a dart frog breeder. I want to know what people with a little more money are interested in and enjoy. Is that not how a business operates? Look at Understory Enterprises list of frogs that they breed. I can direct you to a list containing all the species and their costs. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely LOVE watching me darts! I LOVE their individual personalities! And that is why I want to breed them. Because I love them.
> 
> I would like to restate what I said about wanting something to "upgrade" to. I should have said "I want something to EXPAND my breeding business with". That is what a business owner always does. It does not matter if he is selling plants, animals, electronics or cars.


It isn't uncommon for people to want to expand thier business but this is very dependent on the popularity cycles.. In the last ten years we have seen major changes in the frogs that "are most valuable", most popular, etc... It would have been a lot better if you had pointed out in the beginning that you are looking for frogs that at this moment (it can be different when the frogs begin to breed) are in demand.. 

I should also note that when a newer person comes on the forum asking these sorts of questions often a lot of red flags go up...... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Elliot said:


> . Is that not how a business operates? Look at Understory Enterprises list of frogs that they breed. I can direct you to a list containing all the species and their costs. .


I should add that you won't find people like UE coming on to the forums and trying to suss out which frogs are most likely going to make them the most money..... so the comparision/justification is more than a little skewed... 

Ed


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

To the OP, something to take home from this thread is that frog popularity comes and goes, as do the prices.

If I was going into the breeding business, I'd find a few frogs that I liked and wanted to breed, and, would make them my specialty. People would know that frogface has the healthiest (whatever frogs) because she specializes in them and takes good care of them. Rather than someone who chases whatever frog is a good profit at the time.

Just my opinion. I am no business person


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

UE was a comparison to the higher priced dart frogs that people will buy. Like Ranitomeya summersi


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Elliot said:


> UE was a comparison to the higher priced dart frogs that people will buy. Like Ranitomeya summersi


Summersi was the high priced frog you chose? I dropped $400 per frog when benedicta came in. But I wasn't willing to pay that price because of the frog. I paid it because of the business. A business that releases frogs not currently in the hobby (legally) into the hobby AND supports conservation? It totally validates what I spend up their way. What validates me spending the same amount at your business?


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

frogface said:


> To the OP, something to take home from this thread is that frog popularity comes and goes, as do the prices.
> 
> If I was going into the breeding business, I'd find a few frogs that I liked and wanted to breed, and, would make them my specialty. People would know that frogface has the healthiest (whatever frogs) because she specializes in them and takes good care of them. Rather than someone who chases whatever frog is a good profit at the time.
> 
> Just my opinion. I am no business person


Lol, I'm no business person either. I don't want to chase after whatever fog is popular. I just want to know what people like.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Elliot said:


> Lol, I'm no business person either. I don't want to chase after whatever fog is popular. I just want to know what people like.


That's just it! People like them all. What you you like? Go from there.


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Elliot said:


> Lol, I'm no business person either. I don't want to chase after whatever fog is popular. I just want to know what people like.


I can't speak for anyone else, but fog isn't really worth chasing after...


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

Yeah, I'm not the greatest typer


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Elliot said:


> Yeah, I'm not the greatest typer


Sorry, I'm the resident smart alec. I can't help myself.


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

you might of just met your match


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Darn, looks like I was wrong. This was a thread trying to determine which frogs to sell instead of a simple discussion. Let's continue to jack it!

I have a cocohut, leaf litter, and (probably way too many) plants in the tank with my tincs but that one often prefers to chill in that specific brom. 

In response to this: 


Ed said:


> Typically the nice displays aren't driven by the frogs that are kept in them but by the plants and design aesthetics. If they were driven by the frogs, we wouldn't see larger terrestrial species that do not utilize phytotemlata as deposition sites kept in tanks with heavy bromeliad plantings on the backgrounds (and/or the sides).......
> Ed


I won't deny that the contents of my display tank are heavily influenced by my personal preferences instead of just what the frog needs, but check out this excerpt from the link you posted:



_<page 40>_ Dendrobates tinctorius is mainly terrestrial,
although we observed frogs climbing tree trunks
to heights of 40 m (Born 1994). The frogs forage
in the leaf litter and deposit their clutches of
3–14 eggs there. Males do not have advertisement
vocalization, but instead, produce weak buzz
calls when courting a female (Born 1994). Eggs
hatch within 14–28 days and *males transport the
tadpoles*, one or two at a time, on their backs *to*
discrete bodies of water (e.g., palm bracts, *waterfilled
bromeliad axils* or tree holes, and other
suitable places high up in trees).

Also,

_<page 43>_ Frogs were most likely to be encountered
in recently fallen crowns of trees
(37.3%) and only sporadically found in litter or
under decaying wood

The way I read this tincs do use broms and like to hang out in heavily planted areas.


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

That would be pretty neat to have a viv with a fallen tree laying across the viv floor. It would be even neater with a bunch of broms and moss all over it


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Mwuhahahaha











Elliot said:


> you might of just met your match


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Yeah, and maybe a couple of howler monkeys in the canopy, an agouti foraging on the ground, and maybe even a sloth. Then there is the incredible variety of insects and arachnids to choose from. 


Elliot said:


> That would be pretty neat to have a viv with a fallen tree laying across the viv floor. It would be even neater with a bunch of broms and moss all over it


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

You could even put fieldnstreams diamond-encrusted, solid-platinum bullfrog paperweight in there. And maybe an anaconda.... Or if you wanted to go for culture shock. Throw in a chinese red panda. I don't think a giant panda would fit.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

This battle of wits has taken the thread WAY off topic, lol!

JBear


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Isn't it?

What exactly DOES this have to do with money?

I've moved the thread to the location it belongs. And if it's not going to be about Frogs (whatever the hell you folks are talking about now), we can move it to the Lounge, because it really has no true "frog" content. It has only "bank" content.

s


stemcellular said:


> Well, the ones that I like the most have the most value.


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

Thanks Scott!


----------



## SWReptiles (Apr 20, 2012)

I picked up a awesome pair of thin spot lucs for $400


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Shinosuke said:


> I won't deny that the contents of my display tank are heavily influenced by my personal preferences instead of just what the frog needs, but check out this excerpt from the link you posted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll give you the technical gotcha on this but lets examine this more critically.. 
Lets look at the comment on bromeliad axils, it stated that as an example of water sources without any corroborating examples or defining the water container being used... (with the sole exception of the following quote "
The tadpoles of​​​​_D. tinctorius _are only rarely deposited in the leaf axils of plants. Male _D. tinctorius _deposit their tadpoles in tree holes or
palm bracts that may be found scattered throughout the forest. "endquote This comment is not specific for that region or locality of tinctorius so great care should be utilized in interpreting it... ​
The way I interpreted your quote that is they went into the general literature on dendtrobatid tadpole deposition sites and didn't confirm that they were actually utilized the bromeliads (however it does confirm that they do use large water filled palm bracts for deposition sites).... So that bit of data has to be put aside since it is contradicted in the literature elsewhere... (if we look at a different Dendrobates species (specifically Dendrobates auratus) we can see that they actually prefer larger deposition sites than smaller ones (resource partioning between sympatric species) see for example (sorry not free access BioOne Online Journals - Competitive Interactions in Phytotelmata). This is due to the feeding behaviors of the tadpoles. In addition, if we are critically evaluating the statement, there is not indication that if bromeliads were used they would be the small ones commonly chosen for enclosures instead based on the biology of the tadpoles we should be looking at much larger bromeliads. 

With respect to the amount of time reference, it should be noted that the frogs spent more than 62% of the time not in the fallen crowns... The researchers theorized that they were utilzing the crowns primarily for feeding, did not note tadpole present in the fallen crowns.... 

Ed


----------



## Jeremy305 (Nov 25, 2009)

Varadero.......


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

jbherpin said:


> This battle of wits has taken the thread WAY off topic, lol!
> 
> JBear


Haha, if this was a battle of wits than I surely can't win, I lost mine LONG ago! Really, I'm just a frog newbie trying to learn whatever I can from the more experienced folks on this board (and maybe having a bit of fun in the process).


Ed - Thanks for giving me the "gotcha". It's true that there's not enough detail in either of my examples to really prove anything, but on the other hand there's not enough detail to disprove it either. A logical guess (and maybe other papers) would put both points in your favor - they probably do use larger broms for deposition sites than the ones common in the hobby and most of their time is probably spent away from fallen tree crowns. However your average hobbyist (like myself) could never provide the kind of environment (fallen trees, acres of leaf litter for forage, etc) these little guys are used to. Since we are limited to one small, static environment for them to live in do you really think it's detrimental to the frogs health for us to use heavily planted tanks with more hides (including broms) than open leaf litter area? What would you recommend we do instead?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Shinosuke said:


> Ed - Thanks for giving me the "gotcha". It's true that there's not enough detail in either of my examples to really prove anything, but on the other hand there's not enough detail to disprove it either. A logical guess (and maybe other papers) would put both points in your favor - they probably do use larger broms for deposition sites than the ones common in the hobby and most of their time is probably spent away from fallen tree crowns. However your average hobbyist (like myself) could never provide the kind of environment (fallen trees, acres of leaf litter for forage, etc) these little guys are used to. Since we are limited to one small, static environment for them to live in do you really think it's detrimental to the frogs health for us to use heavily planted tanks with more hides (including broms) than open leaf litter area? What would you recommend we do instead?


What people really need to look at critically is what do the frogs require in thier habitat (resource allocation). We know that the size of the space they need is dependent on how far apart the resources they require are situated. For example, depositing tadpoles into a stable location close to the ground is going to be better in terms of metabolic investments than climbing a tree for 40 plus feet to utilize a hole in a tree (at least for larger terrestrial species).... 
As for detrimental to the health, we have to consider a wide variety of things including what is developing in the husbandry world in what has become known as phenotypic plasticity and epigenetics. For example in other taxa, how the animals are impacted by the enviroment in which they are living... For example (free access) see http://www.erin.utoronto.ca/~w3fora...ponse to social environment. Ecology 1997.pdf and we know that phenotypic plasticity is found in anurans (see Habitat duration, predation risk and phenotypic plasticity in common frog (Rana temporaria) tadpoles - Laurila - 2001 - Journal of Animal Ecology - Wiley Online Library).... So it isn't a far reach to place suspicion that heavily planted enclosures for terrestrial frogs could be pushing for a smaller adult size. If one looks at many of the historical comments on poor quality frogs, we often seen complaints about how captive bred animals (among other traits) don't get as large as the wild caught frogs. This provides a strong indication that one or more things in the captive husbandry of the dart frogs is causing these changes. Until such a time as someone has time to parse this out in a lab we have to consider a number of factors but smaller body size is certainly an advantage for movement in tight heavy cover...

I'm going to leave this discussion with a couple of thoughts on it.. If we, as the hobby are dedicated to keeping the frogs as close to the wild type as possible, then why do we deliberately set up enviroments that promote abnormal behaviors simple for aesthetical reasons? 

Institutions over the years have generally followed the following trend (I haven't put it out there lately so it's over due) 

1) simply keeping the animal alive
2) simply breeding the animal 
3) mortality is equaled or exceeded by reproduction
4) captive median lifespan approaches captive maximal life span (this means it is a moving target). 
5) meeting all of the criteria of 1-4 above while encouraging naturalistic behaviors as much as possible. 

These aren't meant to be in stone and they can be found in alternate order (for example 2 and 3 are often reversed and 4 and 3 can be reversed) but if we think about it, given the demand for wild caught animals, the overall hobby is probably not meeting 3, 4 or 5. (The maximal lifespan of D. tinctorius is over 15 years yet if you ask around most people have had thier frogs for significantly less time which lowers the median....). 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## NVfrogger (Apr 10, 2011)

I am with Jim I love my Blue jeans they have always been my favorite but the A. bassleri blue/chrome green is one of my favorites to look at. I love how they change color in light and shadows.


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'm going to leave this discussion with a couple of thoughts on it.. If we, as the hobby are dedicated to keeping the frogs as close to the wild type as possible, then why do we deliberately set up enviroments that promote abnormal behaviors simple for aesthetical reasons?


Can you give examples of setups that promote abnormal behaviours, and examples of ways to set up habitats more suited to the needs of the frogs?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> Can you give examples of setups that promote abnormal behaviours, and examples of ways to set up habitats more suited to the needs of the frogs?


This is going to be very species dependent...since different species have different niches that they prefer to inhabit.. For example, don't supply small tadpole deposition sites for Dendrobates ssp.... 

There are a lot of abnormal behaviors that show up..(some of which have entered into dendrobatid hobby folklore (for example male pumilio "calling" the female to come and feed tadpoles..)... 


Ed


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, by far my most valuable frog to date, both $$ value and attachment was my standard lamasii. I traded a souped up Goped to someone in FL for 3 tads back in 1999 when they were not that uncommon. After almost 2 years with no breeding activity, lots of other frogs on the horizon, and limited tank space, I sold/traded them to a local Frogger (Kevin Manley). I WISH I had never gotten rid of them. Both because they are very hard to come by now...and because they were very vocal, not shy at all, and absolutely gorgeous. A close second would be the Regina Tincs I had in 2000. I had a group of 9. This WAS when they were new and a rarity. Again, wish I had held on to the group, although they are a dime a dozen now. Oh yeah...my third would be my quintuplet of Moraspunga Tricolor...the first frogs I ever bred...WC and very cheap at at the time. I find nothing wrong with highly valuing a frog because of its dollar value......as long as you also love it for what it is....a beautiful creature with its own personality and charachter traits. I remember when blue jeans were imported in such high numbers that you could barely give them away. They would perish in the pet stores at 25 dollars a pop because at that price they appeared "common" and easy to come by. Like it or not, the demand for a particular species is oftentimes linked to supply and demand. Benedicta will likely be a $65.00 frog in ten years...but does that make it non-desireable? ABSOLUTLEY NOT. They are stunning. Having just started back into the hobby and finding myself froggless and broke...but with many nice vivs set up, I would be overjoyed to have a few fat, happy green/black Panama or Costa Rican Auratus.


----------



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Ed said:


> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


What I pull from this is that we're changing these highly specialized little critters by putting them in an environment that is vastly different than they're used to. Unfortunately that is exactly what people do - look at dogs vs wolves, kitties vs wildcats. No one's going to stop hobbyists from keeping a pair of tincs in a 20 gallon tank - look at how many experienced keepers have racks full of tiny tanks with breeding pairs / groups. These frogs are used to having entire jungles to roam through and we're keeping them in tiny glass boxes, that is BOUND to have a bigger effect on them than having smaller species of some plants around them than they're used to.

Regardless you've given us some good information here, and thank you for humoring me by answering my questions. I'll let my brain gnaw on your comments for a while and see if I can use them to make a better life for the frogs in my care.


----------



## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Most Expensive? Pumilio Rio Brancos... I miss them too


----------

