# Raising fruit fly's for profit?



## packer43064

Hi, I'm interested in raising fruit fly's for profit. I already raise mealworms and getting superworms and dubias next. Fruit Fly's would help spark some interest in the dart frog community when I start selling feeder insects. Would like to do spring tails and the such, but that's for a later thread. I love insects, I wouldn't want to raise thousands of insects if I hated them and love the reptiles and amphibians that eat them. I have a whole 6 foot tall rack with 12 bus table tubs that will soon be filled with tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of mealworms.

I've been looking quite a bit on fruit fly's(flies?) and have some questions to start this venture. 

1. There's wingless/vestigal and some other kind of FF(they jump), which do you realistically use more? I'm not going to buy the wingless and culture them like crazy to have noone buy them because noone really uses wingless. So which is the all around one everyone uses?

2. Are the 32 oz. plastic containers with breathable lid the prefered way of culturing them? Their extremely cheap, but still just wondering?

3. I would culture melongaster and heidii(did I spell those right?), is there any other FF that people buy?

4.What is a good price for a culture of Heidii and then Melongaster? Culture consisting of 32 oz plastic container w/breathable lid,FF food at the bottom,excelsior then the FF. I'm thinking 5 bucks...shipping would be tacked on of course, but with USPS flat rate boxes that less than 5 bucks.

5.How do the FF's ship when it's cold out? Need a heat warmer? How about when it's really hot out?

6. How much of the FF food( I would make my own) do you put on the bottom of the container? Cup, 2 cups? Say you filled half the container of FF food, would this produce more FF's or will it rot/mold if it was just 1/5 full?

7. From what I've been reading it seems that at about 30 days(month) the cultures die down. I would be selling these so what would be a good number of cultures to start every week? 5-10 new cultures a week(?).....it all depends on business I guess.

8. I would like to make my own food, but is commercial foods better?

9. Starting a new culture I've seen anywhere from starting with 50-150 fly's per container. Does it matter?

I know it's alot of questions, but some of these I couldn't find exact answers on. I figured with this being a huge dart frog community of all people to know these answers you all would. I appreciate any advice.


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## WendySHall

No offense intended, but... you want to start a business selling fruit flies yet have not even tried to do any research yourself? Or even made a culture? (sigh)

These are very basic and simple questions. You can find the answer to every one of your questions simply by searching these boards and taking a look at the websites of other vendors.

Like I said, I don't mean to offend... but if you want to build a good, reliable business, you should do some research and gain some understanding on your own. You may still have questions and I'm sure everyone would be glad to help you out...but at least make an effort.


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## earthfrog

Here's a link for starters---it's at the top of the Sticky section in this Food and Feeding section. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/18630-fruit-fly-culturing-mini-howto.html

After you assimilate that, and make your first cultures, you can ask more questions. 
It takes time to formulate a good process and try it out. In doing so and in your own reading you will find your own answers to these questions for the most part. 
What answers you don't find after all that, feel free to post about.

But, in short, I'll answer your questions. Elaborations on many of my answers can be found in the threads usually. 

1) Mostly hydei and melanogaster, wingless or flightless. 
2) Yes. 
3) Yes, but not as often. Gliders are one kind. 
4) Check out sponsor pricing here on this site in the Sponsor section for a general idea. 
5) They use a heat pack in cold weather, use with care as it can overheat cultures and kill the flies. In hot weather flies aren't guaranteed above certain temps. 
6) Any more food than a cup and a half tends to start molding before it's consumed in my experience. 
7) You started answering this one yourself. 
8) Not necessarily. They seem to have yeast and potato flakes and sugar, which makes a good yield for sure. I make my own recipe with more ingredients geared towards optimal nutrition.
9) The less flies you start off with (I use no less than 30, no more than 50), the longer and more consistently the flies will produce in that culture.

I hope this gives you a springboard to go and look up the rest using the Search function at the top bar.


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## Pumilo

WendySHall said:


> No offense intended, but... you want to start a business selling fruit flies yet have not even tried to do any research yourself? Or even made a culture? (sigh)
> 
> These are very basic and simple questions. You can find the answer to every one of your questions simply by searching these boards and taking a look at the websites of other vendors.
> 
> Like I said, I don't mean to offend... but if you want to build a good, reliable business, you should do some research and gain some understanding on your own. You may still have questions and I'm sure everyone would be glad to help you out...but at least make an effort.


I too, was frustrated (to say the least) to see this one. It's obvious you have not done any research at all here. As a business owner I have to tell you you are NOT going to be successful here without getting you hands dirty and doing some research yourself. You are trying to start a business and I know you have never started a culture.


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## alex111683

Pumilo said:


> I too, was frustrated (to say the least) to see this one. It's obvious you have not done any research at all here. As a business owner I have to tell you you are NOT going to be successful here without getting you hands dirty and doing some research yourself. You are trying to start a business and I know you have never started a culture.


I was thinking the same thing as the two of you while reading this. As soon as learned that FF were going to be the main staple in their diet I started doing research and expiramenting with that before going any further with my frogs. The search button at the top can take you to many wondrous things.


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## packer43064

Thanks for the advice. I guess I'll just get some FF's and sign off now.


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## Pumilo

You will find people to be much more helpful when you've done some research on your own and have a specific question. 
Doug


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## Ed

You are also aware that you are probably going to have to aquire permits through APHIS (the USDA) to be able to ship at least some of the insects you have chosen to raise? 

Ed


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## packer43064

Sorry for getting everyone upset. No I have never started a culture, nor have I said I have before to start with. I have researched the basics, belive it or don't. I should have researched more, I will. I ordered the fruit flies about 30 minutes prior to writing this post(original post). 2 cultures of each fly. Again, sorry will research more then.

I'm not trying to start a huge business out of nowhere selling FF's. Just something on the side, that's it. I have the mealworms and have been thinking of other things to try. I'll TRY first then ask questions. I do appreciate the answers that were given.


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## earthfrog

packer43064 said:


> Sorry for getting everyone upset. No I have never started a culture, nor have I said I have before to start with. I have researched the basics, belive it or don't. I should have researched more, I will. I ordered the fruit flies about 30 minutes prior to writing this post. 2 cultures of each fly. Again, sorry will research more then.
> 
> I'm not trying to start a huge business out of nowhere selling FF's. Just something on the side, that's it. I have the mealworms and have been thinking of other things to try. I'll TRY first then ask questions. I do appreciate the answers that were given.


I don't think anyone is very upset. Thank you for taking initiative to do the research. It's OK. Good luck.


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## zBrinks

As an aside, it is illegal per the USDA to ship dubia roaches (or any roaches other than hissers) across state lines.


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## sports_doc

The answers to these questions are good starter info for any new PDF hobbiest, so I'll take a crack at them too. [thanks Susan]



> Hi, I'm interested in raising fruit fly's for profit. I already raise mealworms and getting superworms and dubias next. Fruit Fly's would help spark some interest in the dart frog community when I start selling feeder insects. Would like to do spring tails and the such, but that's for a later thread. I love insects, I wouldn't want to raise thousands of insects if I hated them and love the reptiles and amphibians that eat them. I have a whole 6 foot tall rack with 12 bus table tubs that will soon be filled with tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of mealworms.
> 
> I've been looking quite a bit on fruit fly's(flies?) and have some questions to start this venture.





> 1. There's wingless/vestigal and some other kind of FF(they jump), which do you realistically use more? I'm not going to buy the wingless and culture them like crazy to have noone buy them because noone really uses wingless. So which is the all around one everyone uses?


Wingless culture slower, and a great for thumbnails and young frogs but since they dont produce the volume of FF that a larger breeder needs, most use Gliders IME. Me included. 


> 2. Are the 32 oz. plastic containers with breathable lid the prefered way of culturing them? Their extremely cheap, but still just wondering?


Yup, most use these, although if you have a smaller collection, glass jars work just fine. 



> 3. I would culture melongaster and heidii(did I spell those right?), is there any other FF that people buy?


Those are the basics, although there are other species out there.



> 4.What is a good price for a culture of Heidii and then Melongaster? Culture consisting of 32 oz plastic container w/breathable lid,FF food at the bottom,excelsior then the FF. I'm thinking 5 bucks...shipping would be tacked on of course, but with USPS flat rate boxes that less than 5 bucks.


I"ve seen from 4-9$. The 'trick' is that most hobbiests can make their own for 1-2$/culture. I think getting a container with each one ordered helps offset buying them, and offering deals for bulk orders, or scheduled ordering is best. I'd need significant persuasion to switch from make my own to ordering. Esp since I use 50/week.



> 5.How do the FF's ship when it's cold out? Need a heat warmer? How about when it's really hot out?


My guess is that they need 65-80F, so a heat pack yes. I've never shipped them in winter though.



> 6. How much of the FF food( I would make my own) do you put on the bottom of the container? Cup, 2 cups? Say you filled half the container of FF food, would this produce more FF's or will it rot/mold if it was just 1/5 full?


 i use a dry scoop using a 4oz cup, that 'doubles' approx once the media is wet down in the 32 oz container. U can use 4-8oz per container. More = more stable cx, but any more then 8oz is going to just rot IMO.


> 7. From what I've been reading it seems that at about 30 days(month) the cultures die down. I would be selling these so what would be a good number of cultures to start every week? 5-10 new cultures a week(?).....it all depends on business I guess.


I make 25 on Sat, and 25 on Wed. For me alone. 



> 8. I would like to make my own food, but is commercial foods better?


 That is going to require some searching. There are many recipes out their, including a commonly used 'Carolina Biological' mix that most hobbiest start with when they make their own. 


> 9. Starting a new culture I've seen anywhere from starting with 50-150 fly's per container. Does it matter?


 I use 100+, and I pick them from the most robust containers of young FF's. The older hatches are smaller and less robust. Any mold in a container? dont use that one for new cx's. Mixing 2 containers together or many together and dividing up is a way to keep cx's vigorous. Hydei need a week or more after hatch for both sexes to hatch out I believe.


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## packer43064

zBrinks said:


> As an aside, it is illegal per the USDA to ship dubia roaches (or any roaches other than hissers) across state lines.


You sure? I could name you 10 websites selling roaches that ship in a couple of seconds. There's literally hundreds of websites doing this, if it's true then they are all breaking the law in plain view of the government. I know you can't ship to Florida, but didn't know about all states.



sports_doc said:


> The answers to these questions are good starter info for any new PDF hobbiest, so I'll take a crack at them too. [thanks Susan]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wingless culture slower, and a great for thumbnails and young frogs but since they dont produce the volume of FF that a larger breeder needs, most use Gliders IME. Me included.
> Yup, most use these, although if you have a smaller collection, glass jars work just fine.
> 
> 
> Those are the basics, although there are other species out there.
> 
> 
> I"ve seen from 4-9$. The 'trick' is that most hobbiests can make their own for 1-2$/culture. I think getting a container with each one ordered helps offset buying them, and offering deals for bulk orders, or scheduled ordering is best. I'd need significant persuasion to switch from make my own to ordering. Esp since I use 50/week.
> 
> 
> My guess is that they need 65-80F, so a heat pack yes. I've never shipped them in winter though.
> 
> i use a dry scoop using a 4oz cup, that 'doubles' approx once the media is wet down in the 32 oz container. U can use 4-8oz per container. More = more stable cx, but any more then 8oz is going to just rot IMO.
> 
> I make 25 on Sat, and 25 on Wed. For me alone.
> 
> That is going to require some searching. There are many recipes out their, including a commonly used 'Carolina Biological' mix that most hobbiest start with when they make their own.
> I use 100+, and I pick them from the most robust containers of young FF's. The older hatches are smaller and less robust. Any mold in a container? dont use that one for new cx's. Mixing 2 containers together or many together and dividing up is a way to keep cx's vigorous. Hydei need a week or more after hatch for both sexes to hatch out I believe.


Each week you make 50 new cultures?  Must have alot of frogs. 

cx? Fancy name for a culture or something?

Thanks alot. Can't wait to get them. Also got 5 extra container w/lids and excelsior at joshsfrogs to make my own cultures.


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## zBrinks

packer43064 said:


> You sure? I could name you 10 websites selling roaches that ship in a couple of seconds. There's literally hundreds of websites doing this, if it's true then they are all breaking the law in plain view of the government. I know you can't ship to Florida, but didn't know about all states..


 According to the USDA, I am 100% sure of this. I have read a letter directly from them stating as much. Same goes for bean beetles - both are considered crop pests. 

I work for a company that stopped selling dubias as a result of this. Trust me, after constructing a 12'x12' roach culturing room and building up a very large breeding stock, then being turned down by the USDA for a permit, we did the research.


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## packer43064

zBrinks said:


> According to the USDA, I am 100% sure of this. I have read a letter directly from them stating as much. Same goes for bean beetles - both are considered crop pests.
> 
> I work for a company that stopped selling dubias as a result of this. Trust me, after constructing a 12'x12' roach culturing room and building up a very large breeding stock, then being turned down by the USDA for a permit, we did the research.


Wow, how long has this been in effect? Well their's always Ohio residents who might want some. I don't want to be in the same sentence as U.S. goverment and fines or penalties. I'm sure they could kill any business with a huge penalty.

If you have a permit though you can sell them? I'll start looking at what else is banned and the penalties of being caught.


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## frogfreak

I'd like to add that mite prevention is a must if you're going to be selling them. I've been using this mite powder for a year plus and haven't had a problem at all.

http://www.jtresser.com/drosophila.html

It's much easier than the sprays imo and last's a long time.


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## packer43064

frogfreak said:


> I'd like to add that mite prevention is a must if you're going to be selling them. I've been using this mite powder for a year plus and haven't had a problem at all.
> 
> http://www.jtresser.com/drosophila.html
> 
> It's much easier than the sprays imo and last's a long time.


I was going to buy the mite carpet(roll of paper), but this seems just as good and cheap. Sprinkle it where the cultures will be? I've heard of people putting their cultures on carboard then putting mite powder on this. This I would think would be more effective than just sprinkling willy nilly. 

Also the site above me has blue coloring. Anyone use this before? I don't really need it, but blue is my favorite color and I'd personally rather buy a culture with a "cool" blue medium than the bland white/tan. Harmful effects?


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## zBrinks

packer43064 said:


> Wow, how long has this been in effect? Well their's always Ohio residents who might want some. I don't want to be in the same sentence as U.S. goverment and fines or penalties. I'm sure they could kill any business with a huge penalty.
> 
> If you have a permit though you can sell them? I'll start looking at what else is banned and the penalties of being caught.


 We found out about the USDA's position after trying to get permits to ship them, along with several other feeder insect species. Springtails, Fruit flies, and wax worms (both greater and lesser) are of no concern.


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## Philsuma

This is a good thread - subscribed.

I can't remember a business oriented FF / feeder thread.

To the OP....it can be done. Now as far as big big $$.....start small and keep your goals realistic.

Not sure who entered the interesting tags for this thread but I think I can guess.


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## frogfreak

Here's what we did. We made a tray to fit a dozen culture's out of cloroplast. We then added aggcrate and siliconed it in to add strength and to keep the culture's out of the powder. We sprinkled the powder liberally all over the tray. We brushed the power off the eggcrate and then placed the culture's on top.

The tray's on the shelving.










BTW We don't sell a ton of culture's, but enough to pay for our own frog food.


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## packer43064

zBrinks said:


> We found out about the USDA's position after trying to get permits to ship them, along with several other feeder insect species. Springtails, Fruit flies, and wax worms (both greater and lesser) are of no concern.


Good to hear. I can't belive roaches are on "the list" though, unless your in the deep south they would die in the winter. I'm going to have to email USDA about other items. I've thought of mealworms(got them now), superworms, roaches,crickets, waxworms and other worms, blood worms,black worms, nightcrawlers, and now since looking here there's springtails and bean beetle cultures. I'll see what needs to have a permit and what doesn't. Still can't get over the roaches bit though, that's some good money right there.



Philsuma said:


> This is a good thread - subscribed.
> 
> I can't remember a business oriented FF / feeder thread.
> 
> To the OP....it can be done. Now as far as big big $$.....start small and keep your goals realistic.
> 
> Not sure who entered the interesting tags for this thread but I think I can guess.


Wow, thanks for whoever changed the tags. I honestly wasn't sure If I should have signed back in after I got home from work, the first few posts were disheartening. In hindsight I should have cultured some then asked if I had any, I got some on the way now though.

It's just a small opportunity that I have thought of. The mealworms are doing great. I wanted to go forward in the next step and try to appeal to other animal owners too, not just reptile owners. Then I thought of the vast majority of amphibian owners that own darts and other smaller frogs and fruit flies came to mind. Also you got eggs, larva, and adults and their food all in a 32 oz. tub. That doesn't happen much for any feeder. Mealworms have to be separted by stage or they will eat each stage. 



frogfreak said:


> Here's what we did. We made a tray to fit a dozen culture's out of cloroplast. We then added aggcrate and siliconed it in to add strength and to keep the culture's out of the powder. We sprinkled the powder liberally all over the tray. We brushed the power off the eggcrate and then placed the culture's on top.
> 
> The tray's on the shelving.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW We don't sell a ton of culture's, but enough to pay for our own frog food.


I googled cloroplast and all that came up was chlorpolast which is a plant organ. Maybe it's a Canada thing. I'm sure I could improvise, that looks like it could stop almost any insect invading it.

How many you have there? How many frogs you have for that whole setup? Edit: I saw your edit, disregard last question.

How many cans of mite powder you use on that setup? 


Another question. I've looked around and can't find if it's possible to stack the cultures. I'm not saying 5 high or anything, but just double stacked. I get that it's a no-no to even have the lids touching each other, but if you have mite powder or sheet it really shouldn't even matter.


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## Pumilo

If you stack the cultures, you will be plugging off some or all of the ventilation holes.
Doug


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## Pumilo

packer43064 said:


> Good to hear. I can't belive roaches are on "the list" though, unless your in the deep south they would die in the winter.


They wouldn't die once they got into restaurants, apartment complexes, and houses.
Doug


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## packer43064

Pumilo said:


> If you stack the cultures, you will be plugging off some or all of the ventilation holes.
> Doug


Yeah, figured that might be the verdict. I'll try it and see how production is.




Pumilo said:


> They wouldn't die once they got into restaurants, apartment complexes, and houses.
> Doug


True, dubias are pretty tropical though and 70F or less wouldn't keep them thriving like crazy. Guess you wouldn't want to risk it though.


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## WendySHall

packer43064 said:


> I honestly wasn't sure If I should have signed back in after I got home from work, the first few posts were disheartening.


If my post made you feel this way, I truly apologize. That was not my intent whatsoever. I have raised (nearly complete!) 4 children and wanted to stay home with them while they were young. I started my own little at-home business which lasted 14 years. I gave it up a couple of years ago because the children got older and I decided to take some time for "me" and go to college. But, my point is... starting a business requires a lot of thought, effort, and hard work. If you lack any of those, you are doomed to failure. Take some time to read (this board is wonderful!), experiment a little (which I see you are doing), and check out your would-be competitors before leaping in feet first. It will make you a much better businessman in the long run.


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## HunterB

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/57709-getting-other-feeders-approved-aphis-usda.html

this thread (still current really) has multiple interesting facts about what you can and cant ship, definitly a good read


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## Ed

HunterB said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/57709-getting-other-feeders-approved-aphis-usda.html
> 
> this thread (still current really) has multiple interesting facts about what you can and cant ship, definitly a good read


 
I added a response I got from APHIS there today. 

Ed


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## frogfreak

I may have spelt it wrong. It's the corugated platic materiaal that would be used for a sign such as garage sale. The tray is not that important. It could be metal, wood, etc.



packer43064 said:


> I googled cloroplast and all that came up was chlorpolast which is a plant organ. Maybe it's a Canada thing. I'm sure I could improvise, that looks like it could stop almost any insect invading it.
> 
> *I use 1 bottle/tray*
> 
> How many cans of mite powder you use on that setup?
> 
> *I wouldn't double stack the culture's. It will increase the moisture content on the lower one and when you go to get the flie's out the medium may come with them. It will be very wet still.*
> 
> 
> Another question. I've looked around and can't find if it's possible to stack the cultures. I'm not saying 5 high or anything, but just double stacked. I get that it's a no-no to even have the lids touching each other, but if you have mite powder or sheet it really shouldn't even matter.


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## Brotherly Monkey

frogfreak said:


> I may have spelt it wrong. It's the corugated platic materiaal that would be used for a sign such as garage sale. The tray is not that important. It could be metal, wood, etc.


Coroplast - Google Search


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## Philsuma

A Restaurant warehouse store will stock many different size trays as well.

Not sure of the price differences of tray vs. coroplast....


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## packer43064

WendySHall said:


> If my post made you feel this way, I truly apologize. That was not my intent whatsoever. I have raised (nearly complete!) 4 children and wanted to stay home with them while they were young. I started my own little at-home business which lasted 14 years. I gave it up a couple of years ago because the children got older and I decided to take some time for "me" and go to college. But, my point is... starting a business requires a lot of thought, effort, and hard work. If you lack any of those, you are doomed to failure. Take some time to read (this board is wonderful!), experiment a little (which I see you are doing), and check out your would-be competitors before leaping in feet first. It will make you a much better businessman in the long run.


Thanks, i'm taking my time in this. I need to take everything into consideration. I appreciate the advice. What was your business?



HunterB said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/57709-getting-other-feeders-approved-aphis-usda.html
> 
> this thread (still current really) has multiple interesting facts about what you can and cant ship, definitly a good read


Agreed, it's very informative especially pertaining to shipping out feeder insects.



frogfreak said:


> I may have spelt it wrong. It's the corugated platic materiaal that would be used for a sign such as garage sale. The tray is not that important. It could be metal, wood, etc.


I searched it with the correct spelling. I get what is is now. I'm sure I could make something out of something else if I couldn't find it in a reasonable price.



Philsuma said:


> A Restaurant warehouse store will stock many different size trays as well.
> 
> Not sure of the price differences of tray vs. coroplast....


I bought my 12 bus tubs(for mealworms) from a restaraunt warehouse online site.

I found a few sites like that for the trays. They were anywhere from 2.50 each or 26 bucks a case(dozen). I'll keep on looking.


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## packer43064

Question: Broad or narrow(fine) excelsior?

I've heard that narrower(fine) is better, but just recently I've read a few threads saying they prefer broad excelsior. Does it matter at all? Is there really a difference or is it all pretty much the same? I ordered some when I purchases the cultures and got the fine(all they had). 

Next step would be to buy a bale, just wanted to know which kind to buy in the future.


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## earthfrog

packer43064 said:


> Question: Broad or narrow(fine) excelsior?
> 
> I've heard that narrower(fine) is better, but just recently I've read a few threads saying they prefer broad excelsior. Does it matter at all? Is there really a difference or is it all pretty much the same? I ordered some when I purchases the cultures and got the fine(all they had).
> 
> Next step would be to buy a bale, just wanted to know which kind to buy in the future.


If you go to the top bar and click on Search, then type in excelsior, you can read through the threads to get an idea of what you want to use. I don't think it makes too much difference in the long run. 

As far as where to buy a bale---found this thread using the Search function...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44634-where-get-bale-excelsior.html


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## packer43064

earthfrog said:


> If you go to the top bar and click on Search, then type in excelsior, you can read through the threads to get an idea of what you want to use. I don't think it makes too much difference in the long run.
> 
> As far as where to buy a bale---found this thread using the Search function...
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44634-where-get-bale-excelsior.html


That's exactly what I searched, lol. Just found different answers, I'll just get whatever is cheapest then. 

Didn't find the bale thread for some reason, thanks!

EDIT: UPS just dropped off the FF's. Time to experiment and get better at this.


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## Pumilo

packer43064 said:


> Didn't find the bale thread for some reason, thanks!


You don't need to search for the "bale" thread. She did it for you and supplied you with a link. I just checked the link and it is working. Maybe you just missed seeing the link? Just click on the red letters in Earthfrog's last post.
Doug


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## Pumilo

Hey, you want to know what is missing in the hobby? Something that would really sell? Isopod/woodlice cultures!! Seems to be very hit and miss if anybody has any in stock. Dwarf White Isopods, Dwart Gray Isopods, striped Isopods, and Orange Isopods. 
Doug


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## Rain_Frog

I decided to give you a thanks packer because this turned out to be a great thread!


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## frogfreak

Pumilo said:


> Hey, you want to know what is missing in the hobby? Something that would really sell? Isopod/woodlice cultures!! Seems to be very hit and miss if anybody has any in stock. Dwarf White Isopods, Dwart Gray Isopods, striped Isopods, and Orange Isopods.
> Doug


Isn't Poisoin beauties selling them..


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## Philsuma

Test your "product" and market it at a large nearby Reptile show.

As far as "the need" goes......you would be suprised at the number of people in this hobby - some with over 30 or so frogs who STILL do not culture their own feeders and look to buy them !



"If you breed it....they will come".......


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## packer43064

Pumilo said:


> Hey, you want to know what is missing in the hobby? Something that would really sell? Isopod/woodlice cultures!! Seems to be very hit and miss if anybody has any in stock. Dwarf White Isopods, Dwart Gray Isopods, striped Isopods, and Orange Isopods.
> Doug


Pillbugs! lol I used to catch them and breed them on leaf litter when I was younger also I bred those little brown millipedes. Hmmm that would be a good feeder and possible to breed in a larger setup with a sterilite tub. I'll look into it.



Rain_Frog said:


> I decided to give you a thanks packer because this turned out to be a great thread!


Thanks. 



frogfreak said:


> Isn't Poisoin beauties selling them..


I've seen 2 websites so far that sell them.



Philsuma said:


> Test your "product" and market it at a large nearby Reptile show.
> 
> As far as "the need" goes......you would be suprised at the number of people in this hobby - some with over 30 or so frogs who STILL do not culture their own feeders and look to buy them !
> 
> 
> 
> "If you breed it....they will come".......


We have a reptile show every 2 or 3rd Saturday of the month. I need to expand, but that would be a good option to get the word out and test prices.


----------



## Philsuma

Update your profile to include your location - nearby city.

That will help hobbyists here.


----------



## Eric Walker

woodlice/pillbugs/sowbugs would be a great idea as well. 
I have started on a few species myself.


----------



## packer43064

frogfreak said:


> Isn't Poisoin beauties selling them..


Alhpa Pro Breeders has them, white, grey and dwarf. I saw somewhere else that carried others though.


----------



## Philsuma

packer43064 said:


> Alhpa Pro Breeders has them, white, grey and dwarf. I saw somewhere else that carried others though.


I have Spanish Giant Orange and Dwarf White.

Quite a few people cutlure them....but not many are able to sell cultures that are "booming" - chock full of all sizes.

Not all cultures are....equal. So there is always room for being "The Best", if that's what you're striving for.


----------



## Pumilo

frogfreak said:


> Isn't Poisoin beauties selling them..


Poison Beauties is out right now. Pity because his springtail cultures ROCK!
Doug


----------



## Pumilo

Philsuma said:


> I have Spanish Giant Orange and Dwarf White.
> 
> Quite a few people cutlure them....but not many are able to sell cultures that are "booming" - chock full of all sizes.
> 
> Not all cultures are....equal. So there is always room for being "The Best", if that's what you're striving for.


So do you have any that you could sell? Would they be starter cultures or "booming"? Please feel free to pm me.
Thanks,
Doug


----------



## Philsuma

Pumilo said:


> So do you have any that you could sell? Would they be starter cultures or "booming"? Please feel free to pm me.
> Thanks,
> Doug


I have cultures of both.....you can decide for yourself how good they are.

I don't ship.

If you are local....you can stop by and check them out as well as my collection.

You can also check them out Dec 4th at Hamburg PA.


----------



## Pumilo

Philsuma said:


> I have cultures of both.....you can decide for yourself how good they are.
> 
> I don't ship.
> 
> If you are local....you can stop by and check them out as well as my collection.
> 
> You can also check them out Dec 4th at Hamburg PA.


Ahh, thanks anyway but I am clear over in Colorado.
Doug


----------



## packer43064

Philsuma said:


> I have Spanish Giant Orange and Dwarf White.
> 
> Quite a few people cutlure them....but not many are able to sell cultures that are "booming" - chock full of all sizes.
> 
> Not all cultures are....equal. So there is always room for being "The Best", if that's what you're striving for.


I would like to differentiate myself of course from other selllers. I think offering a wide range of feeders is what I want to accomplish in the long run and for the buyer to feel that they got a deal and then some(info pamphlet,extra media, free blah blah, something to that effect). It'll be a long run when it's all finished and done, I hope I can get there. I think it's possible.


----------



## packer43064

This: Dartfrog - Livefoods

This is what I would like to become one day(the feeders part). To sell different feeders, to all kinds of animal keepers. Just sayin'.


----------



## frogfreak

Here's another site you may be interested in.

Springhalen - Homegrown Frogs and Feeders


----------



## packer43064

frogfreak said:


> Here's another site you may be interested in.
> 
> Springhalen - Homegrown Frogs and Feeders


Now that's what I'm talking about! 


I decided to take the rack with the FF's and mealworms into the "office"(upstairs), it's not an office but has no other name. It's pretty crowded with the other animals down there. Made some cultures today. I made my own media....let's see how good this recipe works. lol Will be getting bean beetles next then isopods.


----------



## poison beauties

Pumilo said:


> Hey, you want to know what is missing in the hobby? Something that would really sell? Isopod/woodlice cultures!! Seems to be very hit and miss if anybody has any in stock. Dwarf White Isopods, Dwart Gray Isopods, striped Isopods, and Orange Isopods.
> Doug


They are definitely under cultured in the hobby. I Have a dozen mother tubs going of dwarf whites, grey, tan, orange and the striped. Only problem is they reproduce much slower than springs do. They are needed by many in the hobby, More people should take this project on.



packer43064 said:


> I would like to differentiate myself of course from other selllers. I think offering a wide range of feeders is what I want to accomplish in the long run and for the buyer to feel that they got a deal and then some(info pamphlet,extra media, free blah blah, something to that effect). It'll be a long run when it's all finished and done, I hope I can get there. I think it's possible.


Always a good thing to go for. Teaching is just as important as selling the cultures. Be ready to answer alot of questions.



packer43064 said:


> Now that's what I'm talking about!
> 
> 
> I decided to take the rack with the FF's and mealworms into the "office"(upstairs), it's not an office but has no other name. It's pretty crowded with the other animals down there. Made some cultures today. I made my own media....let's see how good this recipe works. lol Will be getting bean beetles next then isopods.


Be prepared to buy a lot more racks if you take this project on as a business. I have a dozen of the 48'' racks covered in mother tubs and cant keep up with demand. FF are worse as you have to culture them weekly and stacking them doesn't allow for the culture to breathe. You should also consider that cultures you don't sell will need to be used. Its a waste to ditch them all when they hit the point of not being sell-able. Space can be an issue, I had to get a storage unit just to hold the supplies and shipping boxes.

Michael


----------



## boabab95

> You should also consider that cultures you don't sell will need to be used. Its a waste to ditch them all when they hit the point of not being sell-able


Carnivorous plants!!!


----------



## packer43064

poison beauties said:


> They are definitely under cultured in the hobby. I Have a dozen mother tubs going of dwarf whites, grey, tan, orange and the striped. Only problem is they reproduce much slower than springs do. They are needed by many in the hobby, More people should take this project on.
> 
> How big are the mother tubs? You have 12 of each kind or 12 in total? I've only seen a few sites even selling them. That'll be something to try and be good at. Keeping them in stock.
> 
> Always a good thing to go for. Teaching is just as important as selling the cultures. Be ready to answer alot of questions.
> 
> Thanks. I already thought about that part of doing this. To be loaded with questions, I think I could write up some caresheets and have the GF put it on the website. That'll help to a point, I've had quite a few people ask me about mealworms/supers on another site I'm on. Do you give your number out to people? I must say I'd rather have an email or PM anyday of the year then talking to 20 people a day for questions. Might be nice to throw out there, just sparingly.
> 
> Be prepared to buy a lot more racks if you take this project on as a business. I have a dozen of the 48'' racks covered in mother tubs and cant keep up with demand. FF are worse as you have to culture them weekly and stacking them doesn't allow for the culture to breathe. You should also consider that cultures you don't sell will need to be used. Its a waste to ditch them all when they hit the point of not being sell-able. Space can be an issue, I had to get a storage unit just to hold the supplies and shipping boxes.
> 
> Michael


I've already imagined the "office" to be filled wall to wall with racks. You mean the metal racks with bars going horizontally across or the ones with wooden inserts? The one I have now is bulky, I think the metal ones would service much easier, plus their dirt cheap. I've never quite understood how businesses got their boxes to ship. I know USPS would be the logical way to send just of ease with the standard box rates, but how do you get the boxes? I don't think you go to the post office and pick up a stack of boxes every time you need them? Can you get them in bulk...hundred at a time?

I've thought of a way to get a little more space out of a shelf pertaining to FF cultures. Have you ever seen eggcrate(the light diffuser)? Couldn't you have 50 cultures(just an example) then a 4 foot piece of eggcrate then more cultures on top? If you put the ones on top in just a little bit of a different position it shouldn't block anything. Sure you might not be able to get to the bottom ones as easy, but just put new ones on the bottom. Also if there is mite paper down underneath the first layer the top layer will be fine....unless they have learned to fly now.  Space is crucial and even this would help a little.

Thanks very much, this is the information that I need. Also thanks everyone else, this thread has turned into some very good advice for me.



boabab95 said:


> Carnivorous plants!!!


I actually have some VFT's. lol The GF has smaller fish which they would love to have some live insects to eat. Wouldn't be a bad idea to get a dart frog too considering everyone else has one.


----------



## poison beauties

packer43064 said:


> I've already imagined the "office" to be filled wall to wall with racks. You mean the metal racks with bars going horizontally across or the ones with wooden inserts? The one I have now is bulky, I think the metal ones would service much easier, plus their dirt cheap. I've never quite understood how businesses got their boxes to ship. I know USPS would be the logical way to send just of ease with the standard box rates, but how do you get the boxes? I don't think you go to the post office and pick up a stack of boxes every time you need them? Can you get them in bulk...hundred at a time?
> 
> Yes I mean the metal racks. I have a usps account. I order about 200 boxes a month from them. flat rate is not always cheapest on the customer. Check the shipping rate first. Yes you can get the boxes by the hundreds as well as labels and priority mail stickers.
> 
> I've thought of a way to get a little more space out of a shelf pertaining to FF cultures. Have you ever seen eggcrate(the light diffuser)? Couldn't you have 50 cultures(just an example) then a 4 foot piece of eggcrate then more cultures on top? If you put the ones on top in just a little bit of a different position it shouldn't block anything. Sure you might not be able to get to the bottom ones as easy, but just put new ones on the bottom. Also if there is mite paper down underneath the first layer the top layer will be fine....unless they have learned to fly now.  Space is crucial and even this would help a little.
> 
> Nice idea on the eggcrate but, Its cheaper to buy the extra single shelves to add to the unit and they are steady and wont fall or break.
> 
> Thanks very much, this is the information that I need. Also thanks everyone else, this thread has turned into some very good advice for me.
> 
> No Problem on the advice.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually have some VFT's. lol The GF has smaller fish which they would love to have some live insects to eat. Wouldn't be a bad idea to get a dart frog too considering everyone else has one.


As for my mothertubs they are the sterlite 40 somthing qt's. They are 36''x14''x7''tall. I have 12 total for the isos now but I will be splitting them and doubling them soon. And as far as Isos go you will never fill the demand. I had a couple hundred cultures worth of them mixed into the mixed cultures and they did not put a dent in what is needed. I have about 35 mother tubs of springs and other species of feeders and micro fauna as well so if you need any help let me know. I am actually working on mass producing xxsmall phoenix worms right now. Hopefully I will have that going soon. 

Michael


----------



## packer43064

poison beauties said:


> As for my mothertubs they are the sterlite 40 somthing qt's. They are 36''x14''x7''tall. I have 12 total for the isos now but I will be splitting them and doubling them soon. And as far as Isos go you will never fill the demand. I had a couple hundred cultures worth of them mixed into the mixed cultures and they did not put a dent in what is needed. I have about 35 mother tubs of springs and other species of feeders and micro fauna as well so if you need any help let me know. I am actually working on mass producing xxsmall phoenix worms right now. Hopefully I will have that going soon.
> 
> Michael


Didn't think about an USPS account, sounds easy enough. 

I was thinking the mother tubs would be smaller, I didn't know they were that slow to breed them. Any reason why not a deeper tub? It seems everyone uses a shallow or somehat shallow tub. Why not a deeper one?

I'll have to PM you when I need the isopods, first i want to get bean beetles.

Don't phoenix worms turn into moths?, how will you do that. I've thought about breeding wax worms and the such that turn into flying insects, the only thing I could think of to breed the moths is in one of those butterfly cages, their pretty cheap and some can be quite big.


----------



## poison beauties

packer43064 said:


> Didn't think about an USPS account, sounds easy enough.
> 
> It is easy, You can just order everything online.
> 
> I was thinking the mother tubs would be smaller, I didn't know they were that slow to breed them. Any reason why not a deeper tub? It seems everyone uses a shallow or somehat shallow tub. Why not a deeper one?
> 
> They are large mothertubs but they hold a few hundred isos. Ground space seems to do alot better than depth of the tub. plus the weight can bow the tubs.
> 
> 
> I'll have to PM you when I need the isopods, first i want to get bean beetles.
> 
> Don't phoenix worms turn into moths?, how will you do that. I've thought about breeding wax worms and the such that turn into flying insects, the only thing I could think of to breed the moths is in one of those butterfly cages, their pretty cheap and some can be quite big.


They are actually the Black Soldier Fly. culturing them doesnt seem too complicated. I have the space and there is a need for them. They are a very nutritous feeder.[/\

Michael


----------



## Ed

poison beauties said:


> They are actually the Black Soldier Fly. culturing them doesnt seem too complicated. I have the space and there is a need for them. They are a very nutritous feeder.[/\
> 
> Michael





If I remember correctly to culture soldier flies in an enclosed area you need a flight cage that is 2 meters by 2 meters by 4 meters (see the discussion and references here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-new-3-8-150-count-great-darts.html#post67269 )

I personally moved all of my mealworms and other feeders to a totally seperate area from my fruit fly cultures. I was getting too many mites from the other feeders (mainly grain mites) ending up in my cultures. 

Ed


----------



## Mitch

pumilo said:


> hey, you want to know what is missing in the hobby? Something that would really sell? Isopod/woodlice cultures!! Seems to be very hit and miss if anybody has any in stock. Dwarf white isopods, dwart gray isopods, striped isopods, and orange isopods.
> Doug


yes.......


----------



## poison beauties

I plan to do this in a greenhouse. I can cover the size of the meshed housing. Im still researching everything. That paper you linked on the thread is what Im after. Cant figure out how to pull it up.

Michael


----------



## packer43064

Ed said:


> If I remember correctly to culture soldier flies in an enclosed area you need a flight cage that is 2 meters by 2 meters by 4 meters (see the discussion and references here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-new-3-8-150-count-great-darts.html#post67269 )
> 
> I personally moved all of my mealworms and other feeders to a totally seperate area from my fruit fly cultures. I was getting too many mites from the other feeders (mainly grain mites) ending up in my cultures.
> 
> Ed


This is what scares me with having everything in one room. I would rather have it all organized in one room and out of the way, but then you risk everything having mites if an outbreak happens. 

My plan of action is to have mite paper on all rack shelves...and even under the actual racks(the legs). Not sticking out of course, I don't want to be walking on chemicals when I get too close. Just close enough. 

Does this sound reasonable? Anyone?

I can get a 18 in. wide by 10 foot section for 5.50 That's not too bad considering mites can ruin a culture or colony of mealworms or such.


----------



## packer43064

poison beauties said:


> I plan to do this in a greenhouse. I can cover the size of the meshed housing. Im still researching everything. That paper you linked on the thread is what Im after. Cant figure out how to pull it up.
> 
> Michael


One more. Is this your real job, or something on the side? Alot of people seem to start this on the side then it grows into a somewhat PT job and even full time if people are buying well. How did it work out for you?


----------



## poison beauties

Its just one of my many side projects but I have pretty much lived off these projects for years. I was an MMA fighter fron 17 until 28 and Ive lived off my hobby's since. Mostly from breeding frogs and other herps. I deal plants, bugs, frogs, and arachnids. I only stepped up to feeders as there is a huge demand. I realized this when my own feeder collection crashed and I had hell getting help. Over 2k in bugs before I rebuilt my own personal collection though I was feeding about 200 darts while doing it.


Michael


----------



## Ed

packer43064 said:


> This is what scares me with having everything in one room. I would rather have it all organized in one room and out of the way, but then you risk everything having mites if an outbreak happens.
> 
> My plan of action is to have mite paper on all rack shelves...and even under the actual racks(the legs). Not sticking out of course, I don't want to be walking on chemicals when I get too close. Just close enough.
> 
> Does this sound reasonable? Anyone?
> 
> I can get a 18 in. wide by 10 foot section for 5.50 That's not too bad considering mites can ruin a culture or colony of mealworms or such.


To be effective mite paper has to be changed on a regular basis. I'm going to correct a misconception.. all fruit fly colonies (unless they are aseptically set-up) have some level of mites in them. They come in with the materials used to make the cultures (like the potato flakes). The goal is to control the level of mites so they don't overrun the culture. 

The same goes for all mealworms colonies. You can't get away from the mites as they come in with the food (or colonize from something that they are found in.. like dry pet foods, flour, bran cereal and so forth). 

Ed


----------



## packer43064

Ed said:


> To be effective mite paper has to be changed on a regular basis. I'm going to correct a misconception.. all fruit fly colonies (unless they are aseptically set-up) have some level of mites in them. They come in with the materials used to make the cultures (like the potato flakes). The goal is to control the level of mites so they don't overrun the culture.
> 
> The same goes for all mealworms colonies. You can't get away from the mites as they come in with the food (or colonize from something that they are found in.. like dry pet foods, flour, bran cereal and so forth).
> 
> Ed


Yeah that's what I figured, read it a few times. I guess you would have to be not paying attention to have it overrun many colonies. Thanks. I'll keep an eye on things.


----------



## Philsuma

The key to mass production of feeders of any sort is diligence and cleanliness.

Mites are always present.....they only become a pest when the hobbyist is lazy or cuts corners - neglecting to put the time and effort into maintaining the collection properly.

Try to have a set schedule for making next cultures and cleanup and stick to it. Use proper preventative items like papers and some sprays and overall.....just be really clean with your area ect. Nice clean sink. Hot water. Brooms. Paper towels. Remove trash effectively and regularly. A clean floor and rack system.


----------



## packer43064

What's the preferred method of payment when selling feeders or any live item? I just read a thread on here where paypal messed up quite a few folks on here and not that many people suggested using it. Money orders or checks was the consensus. Personally If I had to mail out a check or money order for a product, I wouldn't be buying it. The "shopping carts" which you actually pay on the site and not forwarded to paypal seems the easiest.


----------



## packer43064

Philsuma said:


> The key to mass production of feeders of any sort is diligence and cleanliness.
> 
> Mites are always present.....they only become a pest when the hobbyist is lazy or cuts corners - neglecting to put the time and effort into maintaining the collection properly.
> 
> Try to have a set schedule for making next cultures and cleanup and stick to it. Use proper preventative items like papers and some sprays and overall.....just be really clean with your area ect. Nice clean sink. Hot water. Brooms. Paper towels. Remove trash effectively and regularly. A clean floor and rack system.


I'm really clean when it comes to a chance of wasting money on things. Sundays are my culture days, I've decided. Always off that day from work. Good advice.


----------



## Pumilo

OK, so the consensus is that mites are in about everything you culture, and controlling them is how to deal with it. Now I seem to do very well with my fruitflies. Bad problem many years ago, but only once. I do, however, have mites in my springtail cultures. How do I go about controlling that? I am considering collecting all I can, drop em in water. Springs should float and be just fine. Let em sit for a couple of hours hoping the mites will drown. Then transfer them into a fresh culture. Thoughts and ideas please?
Thanks,
Doug


----------



## Pumilo

Sorry, I guess that's rather off the subject. I'll post this elsewhere.
Doug


----------



## Dendro Dave

Pumilo said:


> Sorry, I guess that's rather off the subject. I'll post this elsewhere.
> Doug


I think the springs will drown if you do that. They'll float and stay on top of the water due to surface tension and maybe some buoyancy but they'll probably get saturated, or break the surface tension through struggling and drown if left like that for to long.

I've got mites in my cultures...they were pretty clean for the first year or 2 but then bam, mites appeared haven't been able to shake them since. But really I haven't noticed any impact on the cultures, production still seems good and I hardly ever have one crash. Frogs eat the mites too


----------



## frogfreak

Dendro Dave said:


> Frogs eat the mites too


Agreed, but if you're going to be selling them, you won't be in businesss long, if the culture's have mites in them.


----------



## Dendro Dave

frogfreak said:


> Agreed, but if you're going to be selling them, you won't be in businesss long, if the culture's have mites in them.


True... I was just sayin


----------



## Tony

frogfreak said:


> Agreed, but if you're going to be selling them, you won't be in businesss long, if the culture's have mites in them.


Only because of widespread ignorance coupled with an irrational fear of mites. Mites are an incredibly diverse group, consisting over over 48,000 species. Not every mite is a parasite, and they are an important component of the natural diet of dart frogs

Oribatid mites as a major dietary source for alkaloids in poison frogs

Diet specialization in small vertebrates: mite-eating in frogs

Feeding Patterns of the Strawberry Poison Frog, Dendrobates pumilio (Anura: Dendrobatidae)


----------



## frogfreak

Tony said:


> Only because of widespread ignorance coupled with an irrational fear of mites.


I agree that they are a great feeder and that they're eaten by darts in the wild. Do I want mite's in my cultures, no. Are they in there, yep. Exploding, no.

It's not ignorance or fear, Tony. I really don't want to be itchy everytime I'm working with my culture's, and I do not want the predatory mite's taking them over. 

It's also quite common to develope and allergy to them. I know at least one frogger that was breaking out in a rash when working with his culture's. I also know a couple of people that have had the same problem working around cricket's for a long period of time. They can't even go near the bin's anymore. Same as moldy culture's. They get tossed as well if I have lot's of them available for feeding.

I will continue to try and control them as much as possible. To each his own, Tony.


----------



## poison beauties

Mites make up a heavy part of the natural diet in these frogs. Should you try to prevent them yes, Should you ditch a culture no. There is always a frog willing to eat them.

Michael


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> I think the springs will drown if you do that. They'll float and stay on top of the water due to surface tension and maybe some buoyancy but they'll probably get saturated, or break the surface tension through struggling and drown if left like that for to long.
> 
> I've got mites in my cultures...they were pretty clean for the first year or 2 but then bam, mites appeared haven't been able to shake them since. But really I haven't noticed any impact on the cultures, production still seems good and I hardly ever have one crash. Frogs eat the mites too


 
In the old fish books (back from the 1920s through the 1950s), springtails were considered a pest as they would establish on the tops of the tanks and were considered unsightly. Unless there is something that breaks up the surface tension they are fine. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> OK, so the consensus is that mites are in about everything you culture, and controlling them is how to deal with it. Now I seem to do very well with my fruitflies. Bad problem many years ago, but only once. I do, however, have mites in my springtail cultures. How do I go about controlling that? I am considering collecting all I can, drop em in water. Springs should float and be just fine. Let em sit for a couple of hours hoping the mites will drown. Then transfer them into a fresh culture. Thoughts and ideas please?
> Thanks,
> Doug


I often see that people recommend placing cultures in a shallow container of water as a method of mite control but if a
0.25 gram cricket can float on water, I see no reason that a much smaller mite can't. Now the mite's that infest cultures may not be efficient swimmers and that could slow down a spread but it isn't going to resolve it. 

Also keep in mind that mite nymphs could hitch a ride on the springtails. 
If you have mites in your springtails, they are either grain mites, detrivore mites or predatory mites. The first two can be controlled by feeding only active yeast (baker's yeast). The last one is going to wipe out your culture. 
If you were feeding fish flakes, rice grains, dog food, baby cereal, oat meal they are probably grain mites. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfreak said:


> It's also quite common to develope and allergy to them. I know at least one frogger that was breaking out in a rash when working with his culture's. I also know a couple of people that have had the same problem working around cricket's for a long period of time. They can't even go near the bin's anymore. Same as moldy culture's. They get tossed as well if I have lot's of them available for feeding.
> .


This is a common thought but people have to keep in mind that the flies and crickets themselves are potent allergens with a lot of cross reactions. 
See for example ScienceDirect - Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology : Respiratory allergy to laboratory fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster)

Mealworm asthma: clinical and immunologic studies. [J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1983] - PubMed result

Occupational allergy to locusts: an investigation ... [J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1988] - PubMed result

These are recognized to commonly occur in people who are routinely exposed to these insects. Desensitizations shots can help if the person follows through on the treatment. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Tony said:


> Only because of widespread ignorance coupled with an irrational fear of mites. Mites are an incredibly diverse group, consisting over over 48,000 species. Not every mite is a parasite, and they are an important component of the natural diet of dart frogs
> )


 
However with respect to feeder cultures we do have plenty of examples of the mites overrunning cultures and destroying them... 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> I often see that people recommend placing cultures in a shallow container of water as a method of mite control but if a
> 0.25 gram cricket can float on water, I see no reason that a much smaller mite can't. Now the mite's that infest cultures may not be efficient swimmers and that could slow down a spread but it isn't going to resolve it.
> 
> Also keep in mind that mite nymphs could hitch a ride on the springtails.
> If you have mites in your springtails, they are either grain mites, detrivore mites or predatory mites. The first two can be controlled by feeding only active yeast (baker's yeast). The last one is going to wipe out your culture.
> If you were feeding fish flakes, rice grains, dog food, baby cereal, oat meal they are probably grain mites.
> 
> Ed


Ahh Haa Haa! Well lets see...I was feeding fish flakes, rice grains, baby cereal and oat meal so I guess I have a pretty good guess where they came from! My wife says Costco has big, 2 lb bags of active bakers yeast for cheap. She can't remember the price but says it's really cheap. Are Mushrooms still considered safe, Ed?



Ed said:


> However with respect to feeder cultures we do have plenty of examples of the mites overrunning cultures and destroying them...
> 
> Ed


Yeah we do! One of mine has more and more mites every time I look at it! Many years ago I lost all of my ff cultures to a bad mite problem. I was feeding about 90 adult frogs at the time and I don't even know how many froglets! I am so lucky to have a friend like Rick White who was able to help me out through that. He religiously throws out his cultures after one month so I was using his old cultures until my new ones were up and running. Anyway, after that I am a firm believer that you need to do all you can to keep mites at a minimum! 
Doug


----------



## frogfreak

Ed said:


> This is a common thought but people have to keep in mind that the flies and crickets themselves are potent allergens with a lot of cross reactions.
> See for example ScienceDirect - Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology : Respiratory allergy to laboratory fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster)
> 
> Mealworm asthma: clinical and immunologic studies. [J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1983] - PubMed result
> 
> Occupational allergy to locusts: an investigation ... [J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1988] - PubMed result
> 
> These are recognized to commonly occur in people who are routinely exposed to these insects. Desensitizations shots can help if the person follows through on the treatment.
> 
> Ed


Thanks for the links and info, Ed. 

Interesting reads. Overexposure to anything can create problem's. I have some chemical's at work that I can't be around at all anymore. They're concidered to be relatively harmless in the concentrations I've been working in. 30 years later, not so much...


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Ahh Haa Haa! Well lets see...I was feeding fish flakes, rice grains, baby cereal and oat meal so I guess I have a pretty good guess where they came from! My wife says Costco has big, 2 lb bags of active bakers yeast for cheap. She can't remember the price but says it's really cheap. Are Mushrooms still considered safe, Ed?
> 
> 
> Yeah we do! One of mine has more and more mites every time I look at it! Many years ago I lost all of my ff cultures to a bad mite problem. I was feeding about 90 adult frogs at the time and I don't even know how many froglets! I am so lucky to have a friend like Rick White who was able to help me out through that. He religiously throws out his cultures after one month so I was using his old cultures until my new ones were up and running. Anyway, after that I am a firm believer that you need to do all you can to keep mites at a minimum!
> Doug


 
If you have an issue with detrivore mites, feeding shroms may make it worse. Once the mites are back under control you can go back to feeding what you want. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfreak said:


> Thanks for the links and info, Ed.
> 
> Interesting reads. Overexposure to anything can create problem's. I have some chemical's at work that I can't be around at all anymore. They're concidered to be relatively harmless in the concentrations I've been working in. 30 years later, not so much...


It is one of the those things that the more a person is around it, the greater the chance of problems. I was really trying to address the idea (that has been floating around for awhile) that if a person is having allergy problems around thier cultures it is due to the mites.. it is probably just as much due to the flies or other insects as the mites. 

I think the thing we underestimate is how much debris ends up floating around after we dump out the flies. Most of us work in areas that are also our living areas (or areas we constantly frequent) so the exposure is very consistent. 

Ed


----------



## packer43064

Pumilo said:


> Sorry, I guess that's rather off the subject. I'll post this elsewhere.
> Doug


No worries, threads have a mind of their owns after awhile.



frogfreak said:


> Agreed, but if you're going to be selling them, you won't be in businesss long, if the culture's have mites in them.


Exactly.



Tony said:


> Only because of widespread ignorance coupled with an irrational fear of mites. Mites are an incredibly diverse group, consisting over over 48,000 species. Not every mite is a parasite, and they are an important component of the natural diet of dart frogs
> 
> Oribatid mites as a major dietary source for alkaloids in poison frogs
> 
> Diet specialization in small vertebrates: mite-eating in frogs
> 
> Feeding Patterns of the Strawberry Poison Frog, Dendrobates pumilio (Anura: Dendrobatidae)


The thing is when I sell cultures noone is going to want to buy one that has a huge amount of mites in it. Good for the frog or not, people see mites and get grossed out and then I lose respect and never hear from that customer again. I can educate the customer, but I wouldn't want to buy a culture either where there are 10X more mites than flies in it.



Ed said:


> This is a common thought but people have to keep in mind that the flies and crickets themselves are potent allergens with a lot of cross reactions.
> See for example ScienceDirect - Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology : Respiratory allergy to laboratory fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster)
> 
> Mealworm asthma: clinical and immunologic studies. [J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1983] - PubMed result
> 
> Occupational allergy to locusts: an investigation ... [J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1988] - PubMed result
> 
> These are recognized to commonly occur in people who are routinely exposed to these insects. Desensitizations shots can help if the person follows through on the treatment.
> 
> Ed


I hope I never become allergic to my feeders.


----------



## packer43064

Is active dry yeast....baker's yeast? If so I feel like a fool. I looked at quite a few stores for "baker's" yeast. Like it had to say baker's on it. I thought it was some kind of fancy yeast.


----------



## frogfreak

Ed said:


> It is one of the those things that the more a person is around it, the greater the chance of problems. *I was really trying to address the idea (that has been floating around for awhile) that if a person is having allergy problems around thier cultures it is due to the mites.. it is probably just as much due to the flies or other insects as the mites.*
> 
> I think the thing we underestimate is how much debris ends up floating around after we dump out the flies. Most of us work in areas that are also our living areas (or areas we constantly frequent) so the exposure is very consistent.
> 
> Ed


Got it and thanks for the info.

Packer...I think you'll do well on your new venture. You're getting some great feeback here.


----------



## packer43064

frogfreak said:


> Got it and thanks for the info.
> 
> Packer...I think you'll do well on your new venture. You're getting some great feeback here.


Agreed.


----------



## Pumilo

packer43064 said:


> Is active dry yeast....baker's yeast? If so I feel like a fool. I looked at quite a few stores for "baker's" yeast. Like it had to say baker's on it. I thought it was some kind of fancy yeast.


Yes, active dry yeast is baker's yeast. The most common brands are Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast and Red Star. Just the common yeast used for baking bread. You can get two pound bags of Red Star at Costco for cheap. Way cheaper than the little three packs you find at the grocery stores or the little jars you find at Wall Mart. I have to wonder if you could maybe find a great price at whatever local Bakery is near you. Ask them if you could tag along on one of their orders. 

You are also going to want to sprinkle just the smallest amount of this on your cultures before dropping your breeder flies in. The yeast will help to outcompete the bad molds from setting in. This active yeast is different from the Brewers Yeast that you will use mixed into your ff cultures for protein, vitamins and just overall good production. 

Did I miss it or is just not "internet savvy"? Are you going to introduce yourself sometime, mystery man? It's nice to know who you are talking to.
Doug


----------



## packer43064

Pumilo said:


> Yes, active dry yeast is baker's yeast. The most common brands are Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast and Red Star. Just the common yeast used for baking bread. You can get two pound bags of Red Star at Costco for cheap. Way cheaper than the little three packs you find at the grocery stores or the little jars you find at Wall Mart. I have to wonder if you could maybe find a great price at whatever local Bakery is near you. Ask them if you could tag along on one of their orders.
> 
> You are also going to want to sprinkle just the smallest amount of this on your cultures before dropping your breeder flies in. The yeast will help to outcompete the bad molds from setting in. This active yeast is different from the Brewers Yeast that you will use mixed into your ff cultures for protein, vitamins and just overall good production.
> 
> Did I miss it or is just not "internet savvy"? Are you going to introduce yourself sometime, mystery man? It's nice to know who you are talking to.
> Doug


Thanks, that clears some things up. I thought it had to be baker's yeast all along. 

Introduce myself? What is there to say, lol.


----------



## packer43064

I'm looking into buying my own 32 oz. deli containers. I found a really good price on a case(500) of container and lids. I'd be saving a decent amount compared to buying 500 from a sponsor or other site which sells FF's. Obviously nothing wrong with our sposnors, got some quality FF cultures from JoshsFrogs, but it would be nice to offer my own.

It all comes down to the vented lid aspect. What is it? Most seem to think it's fiberglass. Not sure how it would stick to the plastic though. I've PM'ed a member about this who might know. If not, I'll experiment.


----------



## boabab95

I've talked to a couple members about the lids before. It seems that it's heat-sensitive fiberglass pads (like the rolls for sewing) but in order to make the lids, you would need to have all the necessary equip, plus the fiberglass pads (which isnt cheap unless you buy it in insane amount). so honestly, it would be easier to buy the lids and not try to make them.


----------



## packer43064

boabab95 said:


> I've talked to a couple members about the lids before. It seems that it's heat-sensitive fiberglass pads (like the rolls for sewing) but in order to make the lids, you would need to have all the necessary equip, plus the fiberglass pads (which isnt cheap unless you buy it in insane amount). so honestly, it would be easier to buy the lids and not try to make them.


Hmmm, I can't even find them (fiberglass pads) on google. I can look into that more into the future. Thanks.

I could get the containers though in bulk....just have to make sure the vented lids fit. I wonder what brand the lids are? I'll email joshsfrogs.


----------



## poison beauties

Are you talking about the poly fabric lids? for the ff cups. There are a couple places to get them. Most are within a couple bucks of each other. I had to order them by the thousands to get a much better deal.


Michael


----------



## packer43064

poison beauties said:


> Are you talking about the poly fabric lids? for the ff cups. There are a couple places to get them. Most are within a couple bucks of each other. I had to order them by the thousands to get a much better deal.
> 
> 
> Michael


Yes I was. I've found that it's cheaper to go with one of the sponsors. Unless like you said, I buy in huge quantities. 500 is plenty for now.


----------



## packer43064

I've made a few cultures recently (few hours ago) and I'm trying to get the hang of it. I don't want to be making 50 a week with the wrong recipe. So...does this simple recipe sound good?
*DRY*
8 parts potato flakes (8 cups)
1 part brewer's yeast (1 cup)
1 part powdered sugar (1 cup)

*Wet*
1/4 cup of vinegar
1/2 cup of hot water
all in all 3/4 of cups of liquids

I put 1/2 cup of dry in culture cup then add the 3/4 of wet and stir for awhile. Then let it cool add baker's yeast (pinch) then excelsior and add flies from a few different older cultures.

Now questions

I know it's simple, but will it work? I've seen recipes where it looks like I'm making a pie or something. Do I need all of that? 

What should the consistency of the media be? The first batch I made I used 1/4 cup of dry with 1/4 cup of wet (so 50% wet/50%dry) and it looked too clumpy. Plus 1/4 cup of dry with wet seemed like it would be eaten way too early to last 4 weeks so i upped it to 1/2 cup. I liked this much better. 

The 1/2 cup dry with 3/4 wet turned into a thick applesauce type of media. It looked much better, but I have no clue really. 

That's it for now.


----------



## Pumilo

I would think that to get set up in sales, you are going to be able to offer a bulk dry media, too. The vast majority of us make our own cultures. So I would expect a good number of customers would want to purchase a few live cultures, and a big bag of dry media. I they can't get the media from you, they may also buy the cultures elsewhere. Plus, it would keep customers coming back even though they make their own cultures. So IF that road is worth looking into for you, then you are going to need to look into recipes that use Methyl Paraben instead of Vinegar. People that buy a mix are most likely going to want to add water and be done with it. Just another thought to consider.
Doug


----------



## packer43064

Pumilo said:


> I would think that to get set up in sales, you are going to be able to offer a bulk dry media, too. The vast majority of us make our own cultures. So I would expect a good number of customers would want to purchase a few live cultures, and a big bag of dry media. I they can't get the media from you, they may also buy the cultures elsewhere. Plus, it would keep customers coming back even though they make their own cultures. So IF that road is worth looking into for you, then you are going to need to look into recipes that use Methyl Paraben instead of Vinegar. People that buy a mix are most likely going to want to add water and be done with it. Just another thought to consider.
> Doug


Yeah I thought of that before. Along with excelsior and lids and such. I can easily find the right amount of mold inhibitor to put in and make it marketable. Sure it's nothing special, but if you just have to add water you can't beat that. I already put the dry into gallon bags with the recipe and date on them so I don't have to keep making the dry every Sunday. I'll look into getting that next week. Thanks

If I buy everything in bulk it won't even be that expensive for the dry. Their some bulk online stores and their super cheap, there's obviously shipping but still quite a savings from buying brewer's yeast from a health store and etc. There's also Sam's club or Costco.


----------



## packer43064

I've been looking at the different kinds of FF's and want to sell more than just the norm (wingless mel./flightless heidii). 

Melanogaster:
1.Wingless
2.Flightless
3.Curly Wing (Turkish Gliders)

Hydei:
1.Flightless
2.Flightless (Golden)

Buzatti

Is there any others I have missed?

I just want to go all out on this, plus there's not that many sites or people selling all the different kinds. I would have to experiment and get the media right and everything, but it would be worth it to sell them all.


----------



## Mitch

That would be a perfectly good selection. But apparently, there are a lot more out there, maybe look into them. Check out this thread if you haven't seen it.


----------



## packer43064

Yeah I saw that late last night, I wish they said if they could fly. I would assume most if not all could fly, but I'm sure there are some that can't. I'm going to email them.


----------



## packer43064

Figured I might as well post the mealworms and how everything is taking shape.
First off is the mealworm tub. I ordered 2k to start with. I should be able to get over 10k easily after more mealworms turn into beetles and so on and so forth.









Beetle tub. They all hiding under the potato/carrot pieces. There's easily 50+ in there and another 75+ already that are pupa's. The mealworms turn into pupa's daily. I harvest a good 10-15 each day. I'm going to buy some egg crate for them to hide under.









Actual beetles.









This is the Flexwatt hooked up to a dimmer switch. With lower temps the mealworms take ages to go through their life cycle. The room stays around 70-72F, with the Flexwatt the bottom temps of bins are between 80-82F which makes a HUGE difference in production. It would be nice to have Flexwatt underneath everything, but I wouldn't want it under Mite paper or on top. 









Like I've said a few times. I'm going to run out of room in no time. Once I see if the recipe for the FF booms, I'm going to be buying more different kinds and making alot more cultures weekly. Along with 6 spring species, isopods, been beetles, superworms at least. After the holidays is when I will expand with alot of more racks.









That's it.


----------



## rhebert

This turned into a very informative discussion, so thanks for starting it. I think with your level of passion you might find yourself in a lot of bugs pretty soon. 

Also, I think a lot of those bugs will end up living in your carpet. Is there any way you can replace your floor before you're business gets too big?


----------



## frogface

Great set up! Nice to see a pic of it.

If you get into selling dry media, you can grind up the potatoes or find powdered potatoes (I haven't been able to find it) to make it look fancier. 

eta: oh, and something to give it a unique color and nice smell. Maybe lemon powder or something.


----------



## packer43064

rhebert said:


> This turned into a very informative discussion, so thanks for starting it. I think with your level of passion you might find yourself in a lot of bugs pretty soon.
> 
> Also, I think a lot of those bugs will end up living in your carpet. Is there any way you can replace your floor before you're business gets too big?


Thanks!!! I'm planning on quite a bit of bugs, somehow the GF doesn't care too much. She doesn't like when I show her the FF cultures up close, but since it's in the "Feeder Office" she doesn't say much. Out of sight, out of mind applies for her. 

You mean you think the insects will get out or when I mess with them onto the floor? Already has happened. lol IDK if there's an official way of making new cultures so I just kinda hit the cultures on the table so they fall down and try to bounce a few (around 50 if I had to guess) in when I tip the old container to the new container. Were moving to Iowa soon so I'm not worried about any getting out right now. What kind of floor were you thinking?



frogface said:


> Great set up! Nice to see a pic of it.
> 
> If you get into selling dry media, you can grind up the potatoes or find powdered potatoes (I haven't been able to find it) to make it look fancier.
> 
> eta: oh, and something to give it a unique color and nice smell. Maybe lemon powder or something.


Thanks! Did you see the bags of media on the table? lol Each bag holds 8 cups of media which I use half a cup per culture so 16 cultures each. I still need Methyl Paraben though, I use Vinegar now. Some people use even less media per culture so it could last even longer. Good ideas. Grounding the potatoes up isn't a bad idea. The media settles down to where the baker's yeast and powdered sugar is on the bottom and the potaotes on top. Grinding it up would help it stay mixed better. Also the lemon powder is a good idea as long as it doesn't mess with the flies.


----------



## rhebert

packer43064 said:


> Thanks!!! I'm planning on quite a bit of bugs, somehow the GF doesn't care too much. She doesn't like when I show her the FF cultures up close, but since it's in the "Feeder Office" she doesn't say much. Out of sight, out of mind applies for her.
> 
> You mean you think the insects will get out or when I mess with them onto the floor? Already has happened. lol IDK if there's an official way of making new cultures so I just kinda hit the cultures on the table so they fall down and try to bounce a few (around 50 if I had to guess) in when I tip the old container to the new container. Were moving to Iowa soon so I'm not worried about any getting out right now. What kind of floor were you thinking?


I think a nice cheap linoleum floor would be a lot easier to keep clean/ mite free. Plus access to water would be a big plus. I know if it were me, I'd make a bloody mess of the carpet. Maybe the GF would let you take over a second bathroom if you have one?


----------



## packer43064

Honestly, I don't think anyone on here would buy from someone who started doing it for profit without any knowledge. How would I know your culture media is researched and experimented with? There are mold and mite issues that take a while to weed out and get right...even then it takes a while to know the ins and outs. I'd steer clear until you've cultured them for a long time! I sell a few here and there to my local mom and pop style pet shop I work at part-time but if it was anymore than a few here and there I wouldn't be into it. If I didn't do the proper research I would never of had the peace of mind knowing my frogs would be fed daily without issues...and even now I can run into issues. Luckily for me, black jungle is an hour away lol Good luck!

By DJboston via my email. Nothing wrong with comments people. 

Honestly from the beginning of this thread I've researched an unbelievable amount of info on FF's. I'm no expert by any means. I want this to happen. I research a new thing everyday, and have PM'ed numerous people out there with questions. All I can do is try and get better day by day. Thanks for the comment.


----------



## packer43064

rhebert said:


> I think a nice cheap linoleum floor would be a lot easier to keep clean/ mite free. Plus access to water would be a big plus. I know if it were me, I'd make a bloody mess of the carpet. Maybe the GF would let you take over a second bathroom if you have one?


Yeah, something without carpet would be ideal. We have two, but the one we don't use is downstairs. After we move to Iowa It should be easier to plan all of this and where it will all go.


----------



## packer43064

Some new pics.
Pile O' Pupa's.
This is from 3 days I believe of not picking out the pupa's (usually done daily). Were going to be going on vacation sometime and it's going to suck picking all of these out when I were to get back. I'm going to turn off the flexwatt though so it says around 70 instead of 80ish so production is slower while I'm gone.

















Same with the beetles that morphed it's been 3 days. 
I counted 83, I'm sure I'm off by a few though.









FF production pics: They were made on 12/12 besides the right one was 12/5. They've been booming for a weekish now.

































I'm going to be getting some roaches Tuesday.

Edit: Also the beetle container has tiny mealworms now. Thousands of them. So the beetles will be moved into a new container hopefully tommorow.


----------



## frogfreak

In the last pic it shows a lot of flies in the culture.

Imo, you should dump some off or they could crash on you soon enough.


----------



## packer43064

I did. Since I don't feed them off to anything really I'm trying to take some out every day/few days. That one was overlooked for quite awhile. I'm experimenting with getting everything right before I sell them.


----------



## packer43064

Finally got some of the chicken crumbles for the mealworms. Bought a 50 pound bag for $13.67 I can also use this for superworms and roaches. Got 240 FF cups/lids too, with the holidays and all it took foooorrrrever to get them shipped here.


----------



## packer43064

I have flightless mels, curly wing, turkish gliders, wingless mels, and hydei. Just need golden hydei now. Any other kind I'm missing?


----------



## Mitch

Buzzati? (don't know if I spelled that right)


----------



## poison beauties

make sure you keep the species seperated. All those melos can easily start crossing and you will end up with thousands of flyers and only flyers.

Michael


----------



## packer43064

Mitch said:


> Buzzati? (don't know if I spelled that right)


I'm still looking for them! That's how I spell it.



poison beauties said:


> make sure you keep the species seperated. All those melos can easily start crossing and you will end up with thousands of flyers and only flyers.
> 
> Michael


Yeah true.




Just some information for the future (income tax will be spent on more racks and shipping supplies then I'll be ready to sell)
Cultures(any kind that I have)
1-3:$5
4-9:$4.50
10+:$4.00

32 oz. FF cups w/lid are .37 cents each

Mixed cultures(Hydei w/select another FF I have)
1-3:$5.50
4-9:$5.00
10+:$4.50

Just Flies
3 bucks for 100 of any kind

Small FF Kit-$12
1 FF culture (choose any kind)
5 FF cups w/lid
3 cups of media (1/2 cup per FF cup, can even use less which means better value for you)
excelsior or coffee filters (you choose) for 5 FF cups
active yeast
instructions on "How to make a FF culture"

Large Kit-$25
3 FF cultures (choose any kind)
20 FF cups w/lid
12 cups of media
excelsior or coffee filters (you choose) for 20 FF cups
active yeast
instructions on "How to make a FF culture"


Over time I will add my own recipe up for sale, it's nothing special at all(basic recipe), but it works well. 

They would be shipped priority mail unless you want another way of shipping of course. I will cover half the cost of heat packs. I'm not making any profit on shipping and obviously not the heat packs. So if shipping if 6.00 then add half a heat pack price (.85 cents at the most) and it would be $6.85 for total shipping. Shipping will vary of course, but you get the idea. 

I think these prices are fair personally. Some are higher, some are lower just like anyone selling any item to the public. I like insects and raising them, this is actually "fun" to me. Obviously making money is paramount in any business adventure, but I also want to help people out. Why not help people out by doing what I do best and love to do....keep and breed different insects. Selling them is a plus though.


----------



## packer43064

I bought a domain name! I'm pretty excited. My GF graduated with a graphics design degree, so she will be doing most of the work. Otherwise I would be messing around with this site for years. 

The site name is........BUGWAREHOUSE.COM (obviously without caps though)

I like the name, since I'll be selling more than just FF's. Hopefully quite a bit of bugs as feeders to many herps, amphibs, frogs, and everything inbetween. Very excited!

Also I want to say thanks for anybody and everybody who have helped me out thus far. Honestly I wouldn't be at this point if noone answered all of my questions. I've researched quite a bit, but without you all I wouldn't be this far.


----------



## edwing206

You've come a long way in a short time! Keep up the great work. 
Looking forward to seeing your finished product.


----------



## poison beauties

Congrats man. Hope it works well for you. BugWareHouse says alot about how big you want to go with it. If you need any help with culturing info or finding anything feel free to ask.

Michael


----------



## packer43064

edwing206 said:


> You've come a long way in a short time! Keep up the great work.
> Looking forward to seeing your finished product.


Thanks!



poison beauties said:


> Congrats man. Hope it works well for you. BugWareHouse says alot about how big you want to go with it. If you need any help with culturing info or finding anything feel free to ask.
> 
> Michael


Yeah the GF thought of the name. I like it alot.


----------



## Shenanigans

Are you still planning on moving to Iowa soon? I see you're in Columbus in your info. I'm in Cincinnati and would be interested in trying some of your "product" haha. Cincinnati also just started up with monthly reptile shows. The first week of January was their first one, and there were THOUSANDS of people there (amazing turn out)! I would love to see you at one of these shows in the upcoming months. I bet you could really do well selling there. Congrats on the hard work! Keep it up!


----------



## packer43064

Shenanigans said:


> Are you still planning on moving to Iowa soon? I see you're in Columbus in your info. I'm in Cincinnati and would be interested in trying some of your "product" haha. Cincinnati also just started up with monthly reptile shows. The first week of January was their first one, and there were THOUSANDS of people there (amazing turn out)! I would love to see you at one of these shows in the upcoming months. I bet you could really do well selling there. Congrats on the hard work! Keep it up!


Were moving, but it's whenver the GF gets a job over there. So it could be 2 months or 8 months from now. Thanks for being interested. Within a few weeks I should have the FF cultures for sale, but I'm not rushing I'd rather set everything up right first then mess something up. I have a special offer for when I sell them. A quality control experiment if you will, I'll explain later as I get close to selling them. 

We have one once a month on Saturdays around Columbus. There's probably 30 to 40ish sellers at the reptile show. Moslty leopard geckos or snakes, not many feeders or pet insects there. 

I'll have to keep that in mind. Have the normal insect feeders, and maybe some pet bugs such as certain spiders or mantids to spice up the table.


----------



## packer43064

Your opinions.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/63312-i-want-your-opinion.html


----------



## packer43064

Well I've ordered ALOT of things recently (online) and bought alot of different things locally that I needed. 

Got some racks which I desperately needed. Still need more easily, but I have some room now. Bought some flexwatt and a thermostat to heat up the larger rack which I bought for mealworms/supers and waxworms. Got supplies for isopod and springtail cultures. Ton of excelsior should be here any day now. Too many things to even tell, lol. I'll post pics tommorow, after a little clean up.

On Monday I will be having Orange isopods, Pill Bugs Armadillidium spp, Skirted Isopods Oniscus asellus, and 3 cultures of Sow Bugs Gray Porcellio overnighted to me. Also a 2 quart sized tub of temperate springs will be shipped out Monday as well. Still looking for more springs that I can get into 1 single shipment.

Looking how to culture House Flies as well. The mantid site I frequent use these and Blue Bottle flies to feed their mantids. They have come up with a somewhat easy way with practically no smell. If it works out okay, I will be selling those. Most people buy from large companies then resell them to the hobbyists, would be nice to sell my own which I made at home to mantid hobbyists. 

Side note: My Chinese ooths still haven't hatched yet. They should be hatching with 2 weeks or so tops by now. Had them for a good month now.

I just need the shipping supplies and will start selling the FF's. Already have heat packs on the way and have the insulated panels for shipping. Just need some good ole boxes and some filler material.

I know it doesn't sound like a huge update, but there's another 4 shipments left to arrive and I already got 6 in the mail this past week. Along with all of the things I just bought in stores. I've been setting up racks and getting the spring/isopod cultures setup and of course making FF cultures all week. lol It's not cheap to start this, but it sure is fun setting new cultures up and figuring out how I want the racks setup and everything else that comes along with it. I have a whole room devoted to this, I can essentially do what I want. Money well spent IMO.

Still working on the site. I think after we get the main colors going and she makes the layout of the site the rest should be fairly easy. She is making the whole site from scratch. No choosing this template or anything like that. Obviously some things are programs we used, I really don't want to show my poor artistic skills and make the Bugwarehouse logo free hand!


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## packer43064

Pictures.

Just a round about view of everything/

















Heated rack with thermostat. It's set to 82F. The mealworm babies are here.









Isopod/Springtail rack









Inside the isopod tub. IDK if the moss will do anthing, but I had some lying around. Also may have drilled too many holes in them, making them not be as humid as needed. I can always plug up some holes with tape if needed.









Mealworm beetles. I didn't think they needed the heat, all they are doing is breeding. After a few weeks the tubs can be moved into the heated rack for growing, without the beetles of course.

















FF Center. The larger flexwatt in the pic will be moved to the heated rack where waxworms will be going on this.









That's about it for now.


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## packer43064

The ooths have hatched.


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## dendroderek

Good thing you have all those cups and flys!!


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## Pumilo

dendroderek said:


> Good thing you have all those cups and flys!!


lol, That's right. Now you can quit flushing all those flies down the toilet!


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## Arpeggio

What specie of mantis are those? I'm thinking of a small viv for a Hymenopus coronatus.


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## Ed

Looks like a _Tenodera sinensis _ootheca. 

Ed


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## Mitch

If you keep the isos/springs in complete darkness, they will produce faster... so I hear. Faster production=more cultures=more money. This could be wrong though, i'll have to do more research into it but it's worth a try.


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## Pumilo

Mitch said:


> If you keep the isos/springs in complete darkness, they will produce faster... so I hear. Faster production=more cultures=more money. This could be wrong though, i'll have to do more research into it but it's worth a try.


Makes sense. Isopods are supposed to be nocturnal.


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## packer43064

dendroderek said:


> Good thing you have all those cups and flys!!


I know! I bought 250 awhile ago and it seemed like alot....it seems like nothing now.



Pumilo said:


> lol, That's right. Now you can quit flushing all those flies down the toilet!


Now they can be mantid chow. Also the whole flushing extra down the toilet doesn't work at all! There was always a few that didn't flush and would find the side and crawl up....flies in the bathrom regardless if they can fly isn't fun. I usually freeze them now. Now the mantids can have the extra.



Arpeggio said:


> What specie of mantis are those? I'm thinking of a small viv for a Hymenopus coronatus.


Sorry these aren't orchid mantids (Hymenopus coronatus) they are Chinese mantids (Tenodera sinensis) as Ed has said. These are the big ones you see throughout the U.S. A female would be nice in a smaller viv, but their no orchid mantis.


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## Arpeggio

Ya a 5 gallon hex Mantis tank would be pretty sweet. Why female over male? And (you can PM me) how much will you charge for them?


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## packer43064

Mitch said:


> If you keep the isos/springs in complete darkness, they will produce faster... so I hear. Faster production=more cultures=more money. This could be wrong though, i'll have to do more research into it but it's worth a try.


As Pumilo said they (isopods) are nocturnal as I have been reading. The price on the shoeboxes were just too cheap to pass up. Over time a bigger tub might be in order, but these seemed just right. 

If anything I could spray paint them flat black.


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## Ed

packer43064 said:


> As Pumilo said they (isopods) are nocturnal as I have been reading. The price on the shoeboxes were just too cheap to pass up. Over time a bigger tub might be in order, but these seemed just right.
> 
> If anything I could spray paint them flat black.


Simply because an animal is nocturnal doesn't mean it cannot benefit from a photoperiod..or that is isn't important in it's overall life cycle.. this tends to be variable in isopods keeping them in the dark does not maximize growth and reproduction for some species.. 

see for example 

Can. J. Zool. 58(2): 235-240 (1980)


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## packer43064

Thanks, I think I will just leave it be then. Normal light during the day then night should be fine.


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## Pumilo

packer43064 said:


> Also the whole flushing extra down the toilet doesn't work at all! There was always a few that didn't flush and would find the side and crawl up....flies in the bathrom regardless if they can fly isn't fun. I usually freeze them now. Now the mantids can have the extra.


Flush...Then dump while the water is swirling. Works great.



packer43064 said:


> As Pumilo said they (isopods) are nocturnal as I have been reading. The price on the shoeboxes were just too cheap to pass up. Over time a bigger tub might be in order, but these seemed just right.
> 
> If anything I could spray paint them flat black.


You would have to empty them out first. But black contact (shelving) paper you can just peel and stick anytime. 

My shoebox cultures of whites have seeded 8 vivs and are easily up to sever hundred per culture! They are doing great in a mixture of half ABG mix and half hand crushed oak leaf litter. Being fed on yellow squash and ultra high quality dog food.
My giant oranges are doing great on the same mix. I started with 16 adults. I leave them until I see lots of babies, then I transfer the adults into a new culture. When I move the adults out, the growth rates seem to accelerate. I don't have a "control" so it could be coincidental.

edit: posted about contact paper before I saw Ed's post...never mind.


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## packer43064

Arpeggio said:


> Ya a 5 gallon hex Mantis tank would be pretty sweet. Why female over male? And (you can PM me) how much will you charge for them?


Couple reasons for a female vs. a male. 

1) They get larger than a male. Around 4 inches.

2)They will lay oothecaes (egg cases) regardless if mated or not...obviously they won't be fertile. Still interesting thing to watch if your lucky to see it while she is making, if not still fun to see or collect.

1/$3

5/$10 

12/$20

$7.50 for Priority shipping.

Edit: I'll just PM you since this isn't a "for sale" thread actually.


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## packer43064

Pumilo said:


> Flush...Then dump while the water is swirling. Works great.
> 
> 
> 
> You would have to empty them out first. But black contact (shelving) paper you can just peel and stick anytime.
> 
> My shoebox cultures of whites have seeded 8 vivs and are easily up to sever hundred per culture! They are doing great in a mixture of half ABG mix and half hand crushed oak leaf litter. Being fed on yellow squash and ultra high quality dog food.
> My giant oranges are doing great on the same mix. I started with 16 adults. I leave them until I see lots of babies, then I transfer the adults into a new culture. When I move the adults out, the growth rates seem to accelerate. I don't have a "control" so it could be coincidental.
> 
> edit: posted about contact paper before I saw Ed's post...never mind.


Ahh I see there is a method to disposing of them in the toilet. Thanks.

Care to sell a white isopod culture? I tried to get them, but the seller had them arrive dead to his location and didn't want to risk trying to sell them until it's warmer.


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## Pumilo

Same issue here I'm afraid. I'm not set up for cold weather shipping any more. All my boxes, heat packs, everything went with the sale of my coral farm. They would not survive shipping without heat packs and insulated box. Try me in a month or so.


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## tim13

Just so you know, mantis nymphs are cannibalistic. "There can be only one..."


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## packer43064

Pumilo said:


> Same issue here I'm afraid. I'm not set up for cold weather shipping any more. All my boxes, heat packs, everything went with the sale of my coral farm. They would not survive shipping without heat packs and insulated box. Try me in a month or so.


Kool, will do.



tim13 said:


> Just so you know, mantis nymphs are cannibalistic. "There can be only one..."


They were separated into FF cups last night.

Not each one, but 4-5 per cup. I'll let nature take it's course from here. If well fed, they should last a little while (L3 maybe) together. Either way I have another ooth left, need to experiment a little and see what works.


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## packer43064

Got in the isopods yesterday and springs today. There must have been a female isopod carrying young because their are some tiny still white isopods in one of the cultures now. I'm positive they weren't in the container they were shipped in. I can only count 3, but I wasn't even trying really. Didn't want to disturb them for a few days.


















Separated the mantids. The other ooth hatched, but their were only 5 mantids that hatched out. Even after the second day, a dud ooth pretty much.









Got most of the shipping supplies in order, will be testing out a few FF orders very soon. They would be free, shipping would be paid by buyer of course though.


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## Marconis

Looks great. I've worked with isopods in lab; great little guys.

Keep up the progress.


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