# how do you properly santize these plants:



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

broms, potted plants, and especially need an exact anser to mosses, such as carpet, riccia, spikemoss, java moss???? I want to introduce all clean materials into my viv for the sake of my darts and effort/money i have put into my project to build a dart room. thanks, kristy


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

hey.. i know you and i have had a discussion about this before perhaps you could try using gas, that would suffocate any living organisms. if you try let me know how it turns out. like a paintball C02 canister barely open and draining in a sealed rubbermaid. i wonder if anyone has tried a quarintine for plants and sprayed with neem oil?

of course everything needs to be taken to bare root.

james


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i know about the plant sanitizing, i just want reconfirmation and see if all can be done with 10% bleach solution for thirty minutes. even the mosses, like java, riccia, spikemoss, carpet moss etc. its important to me. I know co2 will kill some pests off, but i'm not too sure on anything like that. since i fecal three consecutive times and quarantine quite a long time, going through all the work i go through, i am looking for a definitive answer, not just a see if it works answer per say.  kristy


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Thirty minutes is probably overkill for most plants. 5-10 minutes should be fine, and tender plants (like mosses) closer to 5.

CO2 won't kill off a lot of things, only animals (insects, etc) and eggs are very resistant to CO2.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

littlefrog said:


> Thirty minutes is probably overkill for most plants. 5-10 minutes should be fine, and tender plants (like mosses) closer to 5.
> 
> CO2 won't kill off a lot of things, only animals (insects, etc) and eggs are very resistant to CO2.


i appreciate the comments. much better but still...protocols say thirty minutes..why? i am guessing things like riccia need to be rinsed of the dirt as well before attempting so? i'm more worried about diseases etc entering my vivs and therefore compromising the health of the darts within. kristy


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Check your protocols and make sure you are talking the same concentration of bleach... In the last few years the concentration of commercially available bleach has gone up significantly. Just a heads up...

I don't know anything about sanitizing plants... What I know comes from orchid seed. If I put my orchid seed in 10% bleach for 30 minutes, it would all be dead. You are probably counseled to use 30 minutes to ensure that the entire specimen gets some bleach. If it is clean to begin with (remove as much dirt as possible) and the moss isn't squished into a little ball, I really don't see why you'd need that much time. Cleaning plants for tissue culture is going to be overkill. You aren't putting these into a sterile environment, you are putting them into a tank where they are just going to get 'un-sterile' again.

The hardest thing to kill is spores and eggs. For orchid seed, fungal spores can be induced to germinate in the presence of a bit of sugar, then you can whack them with bleach. I don't know if there is an equivalent for frog pathogens. 

Personally I think using captive cultivated moss and plants, cultured in the absence of frogs, is the best way to go. You are worried about frog pathogens, which should be absent if your plants aren't in contact with frogs prior to first use. Removal of as much potting medium as possible, and a quick rinse with some clean water to remove any surface residue should be enough. But that is just my personal opinion.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I too actually worried about this since several of the plant vendors grow their plants they sell in vivariums close to frogs if not in with them. Not to mention the number of people I have seen on here that said "Oh yeah I'll give you a cutting of that out of my viv".

I've resigned to the fact that nature is going to do what it is going to do. However, when possible I'm going to try to cultivate my own plants. Point in fact I bought several cubes of riccia which to me is fairly expensive no matter where you get it. Then when it showed up with all sorts of creepy crawlies I scrapped that idea and and bought a package of Kyoto moss spores. At the very least I don't think they'll contain snails, slugs, and some kind of worm I couldn't identify. The spores could carry pathogens but I don't know how long most pathogens would survive in a sealed and completely dry environment.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I've been trying to find ways to get riccia spores or something similar for a while. I'd trust the Kyoto spores sooner because they're completely dry. The only other method given to me by Ed was to take tree fern plaques, soak them and light them to grow various ferns and mosses off of them. Apparently this has become harder as the newer fern plaques don't seem to do this as well/often.

Other mosses sold dry are probably much better off for regrowing pest free. If anyone knows where I can get dry riccia spores/seeds or any other moss spores/seeds, let me know.

-Nish


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I have two spray bottles, one is filled with vinegar and the other with hydrogen peroxide. I spray the plant with one...then the other...make sure you have good coverage...then rinse well with water. 

Haven't lost a single plant to this method.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> I have two spray bottles, one is filled with vinegar and the other with hydrogen peroxide. I spray the plant with one...then the other...make sure you have good coverage...then rinse well with water.
> 
> Haven't lost a single plant to this method.


thats a little better. i just am sooo confused why i am being told 30 minutes , rinse very well, and let dechlorinate per say? i want to know will i be killing the plant in 1 cups bleach, ten cups water...cuz i just cleaned out quarantines this way without gloves and my hands are burnt i admit. kristy


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

A note on the riccia moss spores. I don't think riccia moss spores exist as I don't think it truely is a "moss".

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm tempted to take the riccia I have now and spread it out very thin like so that I can see if anything is crawling in it and just grow "clean" patches from what I have now. Another option is to totally submerse it in water as from my understanding it is an aquatic plant to begin with. Right now I simply lack the ability to keep it from floating I've been trying to figure out how to totally submerse it in water without taking it apart (this makes a mess did that with one bunch already). 

This would rule out slugs and snails after a week under water and the plant should be no worse for the wear.

As for "germs" which water will not get rid of my best guess is to try to find someone that you know where they grow their plants and how. I'm not as worried about "germs" as I am introducing invasive insect species that will ruin any chance of having a good breeding tank.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> A note on the riccia moss spores. I don't think riccia moss spores exist as I don't think it truely is a "moss".
> 
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm tempted to take the riccia I have now and spread it out very thin like so that I can see if anything is crawling in it and just grow "clean" patches from what I have now. Another option is to totally submerse it in water as from my understanding it is an aquatic plant to begin with. Right now I simply lack the ability to keep it from floating I've been trying to figure out how to totally submerse it in water without taking it apart (this makes a mess did that with one bunch already).
> 
> ...


riccia does come in seeds. simply submerging in water wont help. i am concerned with vendors who sell it and also handle their frogs as well, so i want to know how to properly sanitize. i have invested a lot of time into my darts, quarantining, fecaling, etc etc. and want them to live long healthy lives. kristy


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## SeaDuck (Nov 8, 2006)

*Re: how do you properly sanitize these plants:*

I believe that you will find that riccia is a liverwort. 

My preference for all plants is a period of quarantine away from all my vivarium and house plants. Bleaching and or using a Consan 20 dip once or twice. At least for those that will take it when I first receive them. Then a few weeks or months of quarantine. This then allows me to have frog and pest fee stock plants and just move cuttings into vivariums. 

Robert


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

robert...can you elaborate on this and how you do it specifically for me please. I know you to be very clean with your darts. kristy


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## SeaDuck (Nov 8, 2006)

*Re: how do you properly sanitize these plants:*

Kristy, I typically do not buy a bunch of plants for new vivarium. I use cuttings from stock that I maintain including some that need to be cultured in a frog free tank (Like tender ferns, etc). A bleach solution as suggested is a decent protocol for most bugs and pathogens. I use it when I receive a new variety of plant. Then they are held away from my other plants. During this time they are monitored for pests. Last thing I need in the house is bromeliad scale or thrip. If anything is even questionable they are bleached again. Consan 20 is a good product to kill most all fungus, and viruses. I use it on many ferns and others that do not take kindly to bleach. The plants are quarantined until I am comfortable they are pest and pesticide free and then they become a stock plant and cuttings are taken as needed. Robert


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: how do you properly sanitize these plants:*



SeaDuck said:


> Kristy, I typically do not buy a bunch of plants for new vivarium. I use cuttings from stock that I maintain including some that need to be cultured in a frog free tank (Like tender ferns, etc). A bleach solution as suggested is a decent protocol for most bugs and pathogens. I use it when I receive a new variety of plant. Then they are held away from my other plants. During this time they are monitored for pests. Last thing I need in the house is bromeliad scale or thrip. If anything is even questionable they are bleached again. Consan 20 is a good product to kill most all fungus, and viruses. I use it on many ferns and others that do not take kindly to bleach. The plants are quarantined until I am comfortable they are pest and pesticide free and then they become a stock plant and cuttings are taken as needed. Robert


As always ...thank you robert. kristy


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## qiksilver5 (Jan 9, 2007)

I was going to suggest a quarantine of all plants as well, and with fast growers you could only use new growth post entry to quarantine to go to enclosure, but Robert seems to have a great system. 

Would something such as Nolvasan work as well or would it kill the plants?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

qiksilver5 said:


> I was going to suggest a quarantine of all plants as well, and with fast growers you could only use new growth post entry to quarantine to go to enclosure, but Robert seems to have a great system.
> 
> Would something such as Nolvasan work as well or would it kill the plants?


nolvasan is not dart safe...only reptile safe. well as far as i know. kristy


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## qiksilver5 (Jan 9, 2007)

kristy55303 said:


> nolvasan is not dart safe...only reptile safe. well as far as i know. kristy


that is certainly good to know. thank you


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## lestat (Feb 25, 2007)

If you bleach riccia for 30 minutes, it'll be a lovely pure white when you pull it out. And completely dead. Obviously I've learned the hard way.  Recently, I tried it again, just dunking the riccia in 10% bleach for a couple seconds and rinsing it immediately, as I was advised to do by a biologist/herpetologist friend of mine. He said that was all it would take to kill anything on it. The riccia survived this method.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Riccia doesn't really spread, does it? I have heard it just grows up but not out.

-Nish


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

nish07 said:


> Riccia doesn't really spread, does it? I have heard it just grows up but not out. -Nish


riccia spreads if under the right conditions like a bed of lush green carpet. it grows up some, but is very beautiful. kind of like a dart friendly nice color of grass and short enough.





lestat said:


> If you bleach riccia for 30 minutes, it'll be a lovely pure white when you pull it out. And completely dead. Obviously I've learned the hard way.  Recently, I tried it again, just dunking the riccia in 10% bleach for a couple seconds and rinsing it immediately, as I was advised to do by a biologist/herpetologist friend of mine. He said that was all it would take to kill anything on it. The riccia survived this method.


Thanks lestat! a little bleach time is better than none! yeah figured the bleach would kill it, but trying to figure out some better methods. would it work on java moss too then? kristy


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

the bleach wash would be a little overboard for me. I would dunk the broms/moss in some ro water and then maybe a Co2 bath. I completely understand wanting to do everything possible for your darts. Sometimes I feel tho people keep things a little too sterile. Kinda like parents who kill every germ within a two mile radius around there kid and they never develop a good immune system. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger", "survival of the fittest" type of thing. Its a terrible loss when an animal dies, if you do everything can for them and your other animals survive. You have to look at it like they died so the others may live. This has always worked for me and i have had may animals live way past natural life span. Haven't been keeping dart frogs for long enough to tell if this holds true, but have other frogs till there late teens. Im sory if i went way off topic here, but i like think about stuff too much.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> the bleach wash would be a little overboard for me. I would dunk the broms/moss in some ro water and then maybe a Co2 bath. I completely understand wanting to do everything possible for your darts. Sometimes I feel tho people keep things a little too sterile. Kinda like parents who kill every germ within a two mile radius around there kid and they never develop a good immune system. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger", "survival of the fittest" type of thing. Its a terrible loss when an animal dies, if you do everything can for them and your other animals survive. You have to look at it like they died so the others may live. This has always worked for me and i have had may animals live way past natural life span. Haven't been keeping dart frogs for long enough to tell if this holds true, but have other frogs till there late teens. Im sory if i went way off topic here, but i like think about stuff too much.


sorry to disaapoint you or others, but i have a rather large collection with money invested and conservation in mind. the last thing i want to do is introduce parasites or anything worse into my vivs. call me overboard. i dont think it is, we care for the health of our other animals, i care for the health of my darts as well. survival of the fittest? not in darts. maybe tads with sls, but i'm not about to possibly cause harm to a larger collection. kristy


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

thats y i said we must do every thing we can for them. didn't mean to offend. I would never want any of your darts to ever get a disease


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> thats y i said we must do every thing we can for them. didn't mean to offend. I would never want any of your darts to ever get a disease


no offense. takes a lot to get me offended darts are way more fragile than we think sometimes. yes we need microfauna to be flourished within the viv, but a lot of pathogens can come from plants as well as pests we dont want in our vivs if possible. kristy


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Im glad were good, I kinda thought the Co2 bath would get rid of most pest and if keep the same plants with the same frogs it would cut down on cross contamination Also you might consider this to be a good time to get fecals done seeing how you are moving such a large collection


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> Im glad were good, I kinda thought the Co2 bath would get rid of most pest and if keep the same plants with the same frogs it would cut down on cross contamination Also you might consider this to be a good time to get fecals done seeing how you are moving such a large collection


if you were to read my posts, you;d see how much i fecal. i do a minumum 45 day quarantine, but i prefer the 90 day q-tine per asn protocols. i do three consecutive fecals. if they come up dirty....i treat per dr.frye, then start all over again with the fecals. believe me, i know. seems like 75% of darts i get in from the top breeders come in with hook worm...some that haven't shown till the third fecal. seeing as how many darts i have, imagine them all in separate quarantines, which they are, now imagine sanitizing those quarantines once a week. talk about labor. kristy


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

kristy55303 said:


> if you were to read my posts, you;d see how much i fecal. i do a minumum 45 day quarantine, but i prefer the 90 day q-tine per asn protocols. i do three consecutive fecals. if they come up dirty....i treat per dr.frye, then start all over again with the fecals. believe me, i know. seems like 75% of darts i get in from the top breeders come in with hook worm...some that haven't shown till the third fecal. seeing as how many darts i have, imagine them all in separate quarantines, which they are, now imagine sanitizing those quarantines once a week. talk about labor. kristy


I believe such things are essential when considering dart frog were never meant to live in small glass boxes. I only meant by my original post that we must remember that we wouldn't have such beautiful creatures without the life cycle and some things are out of our control. The only reason i disagreed with the bleach was that its unnatural and that didn't know what affects it would have on sensitive amphibians, but if diluted and rinsed well should be none.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> I believe such things are essential when considering dart frog were never meant to live in small glass boxes. I only meant by my original post that we must remember that we wouldn't have such beautiful creatures without the life cycle and some things are out of our control. The only reason i disagreed with the bleach was that its unnatural and that didn't know what affects it would have on sensitive amphibians, but if diluted and rinsed well should be none.


nope not hazardous if diluted to 10% and rinsed very well. nothing out of their native habitat is "natural" so to speak. kristy


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

This became quite a spirited conversation ,but something has had me worried me playing around on mind. You said one of the reasons you keep dart frogs is conservation. I would like to think that everyone who keeps dart frogs myself included is conservation minded. Even if its just making people more aware, but the path we are on now makes it more and more likely that there will be a day where we can't find dart frogs in wild anymore. Now you said that survival of the fittest doesn't matter in dart frogs. Now I know you have atleast one frog that would have never survived in the wild without our help, because I know I do. Either is was small or for whatever reason it just wouldn't have survived. That means if that frog breeds it will pass on its recessive genes. When that dark day comes where dart frog populations are slim and we try to re-populate them with CB animals. Those CB animals are not going to be able to fight off wild diseases. The question thats been rolling around in my mind all day is this... Are we dooming dart frogs to extinction?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> This became quite a spirited conversation ,but something has had me worried me playing around on mind. You said one of the reasons you keep dart frogs is conservation. I would like to think that everyone who keeps dart frogs myself included is conservation minded. Even if its just making people more aware, but the path we are on now makes it more and more likely that there will be a day where we can't find dart frogs in wild anymore. Now you said that survival of the fittest doesn't matter in dart frogs. Now I know you have atleast one frog that would have never survived in the wild without our help, because I know I do. Either is was small or for whatever reason it just wouldn't have survived. That means if that frog breeds it will pass on its recessive genes. When that dark day comes where dart frog populations are slim and we try to re-populate them with CB animals. Those CB animals are not going to be able to fight off wild diseases. The question thats been rolling around in my mind all day is this... Are we dooming dart frogs to extinction?


you'd be surprised. not everyone is conservation minded. Some, not all just want to get darts, put them in a small viv with unknown history and unknown diseases, and then breed them or worse hybrids. we have already caused dart frogs harm as humans, we are eliminating their habitats etc. no those who are conservation minded are not dooming darts to extinction. those that aren't will contribute to their ability to survive someday. just my opinion. kristy

p.s. i believe this thread got off track. why not start a new thread about what you are saying? i was just asking about lack of info or different opinions on how to sanitize plants properly. kristy


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

it did get realy off topic, sry


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

AlexRible said:


> it did get realy off topic, sry


no prob kristy


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

i moved it feel free post your opinion on the new thead


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Would the 10% bleach solution kill Chytrid?


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

This is an older thread, but it's linked in a sticky, and I thought this would be interesting to add. I found this the other day when looking for sanitizing procedures that pose a lower risk for my plants than bleaching. 

http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2006/74/d074p013.pdf

Edit: This article contains information on different ways to kill chytrid on various surfaces.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodswalker said:


> This is an older thread, but it's linked in a sticky, and I thought this would be interesting to add. I found this the other day when looking for sanitizing procedures that pose a lower risk for my plants than bleaching.
> 
> http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2006/74/d074p013.pdf
> 
> Edit: This article contains information on different ways to kill chytrid on various surfaces.


Keeping the plant at 60 C (140 F) for at least 5 minutes will kill most if not all of the chytrid on a plant. 
I have to admit that there are significant issues with bleaching as there is good data coming out now that it isn't as effective as once thought see (not free access) http://www.jfoodprotection.org/doi/abs/10.4315/0362-028X-64.2.147?code=fopr-site 

Takeuchi, Kazue, and Joseph F. Frank. "Quantitative determination of the role of lettuce leaf structures in protecting Escherichia coli O157: H7 from chlorine disinfection." Journal of food protection 64.2 (2001): 147-151.

Beuchat, Larry R. "Survival of enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli O157: H7 in bovine feces applied to lettuce and the effectiveness of chlorinated water as a disinfectant." Journal of Food Protection 62.8 (1999): 845-849.

(free access) Gil, Maria I., et al. "Fresh-cut product sanitation and wash water disinfection: Problems and solutions." International Journal of Food Microbiology 134 (2009): 37-45.

http://ucanr.edu/datastorefiles/608-176.pdf 

some comments 

Ed


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I read another thread in which someone had attempted short exposures to high temperatures like that, and it killed his plants. 140 dF is not hot enough to boil the water in their tissues, but that's still hot enough to be considerably uncomfortable for human skin for even a minute or less. I'd be concerned about losing the plants that way, too.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodswalker said:


> I read another thread in which someone had attempted short exposures to high temperatures like that, and it killed his plants. 140 dF is not hot enough to boil the water in their tissues, but that's still hot enough to be considerably uncomfortable for human skin for even a minute or less. I'd be concerned about losing the plants that way, too.


You can do lower temperatures but they have to be for increasing periods of time. Five minutes or even ten should be doable for a wide variety of plants at that temperature. Check out https://www.jstor.org/stable/2439126?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents for some temperatures in sunshine of leaves... thick leaves can be as much as 20 C above ambient temperature in the sun so if the temperature is at 72 F then in the sun it can already be 140. As for being uncomfortable for humans, yes but people can withstand much higher temperatures as a famous experiment by Charles Blagden once demonstrated (see https://publicdomainreview.org/collections/experiments-and-observations-in-a-heated-room-1774/). 

If there was plant damage I suspect that either the person left them in for much longer than 5 minutes (see the article on leaf temperatures), hadn't properly hydrated the plants or didn't use an accurate thermometer to judge the temperatures (particularly in light that leaves can have a higher temperature when exposed to sunlight). 

some comments 

Ed


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I use a multi-step process, and I'll be incorporating the elevated temperature suggestion, in addition to the iodine processing detailed in the article I found. 

For orchids and other plants that typically live high in the canopy, higher temperatures might be safer than for ferns and other plants found on the forest floor. I'll have to use great care when experimenting with temperatures. I'm also wondering about how long I might expose my plants to an extremely low humidity environment to incorporate a desiccation step to my protocols.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just be careful with leaching of iodine post treatment as this has been documented to kill dendrobatids. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

When bleaching anything going into my tanks, I always use a dechlorinator after, and since iodine is also a halide, I suspect that it may also work to remove iodine. That will take some research, but a quick look found that at least one dechlorinator states that it can be used to assist in the event of an iodine overdose in reef tanks. 

From the product statement for Erāse-Cl: "To Treat Free Iodine Overdose: If you suspect that iodine has been overdosed in an aquarium (such as due to accidental misuse), add 10 ml (2 capfuls) Erāse-Cl per 40 US-gallons in an area of energetic water flow; doing so will neutralize free iodine (i.e. that which is not in an ionic form, such as iodide or iodate, or in a bound form)."

Edit: "Erāse-Cl immediately binds iodine in the event of an overdose (typified by “drooping” and rapidly decaying tissue of corals, clams, their allies, and other sessile invertebrates, as well as erratic behavior and/or death of fishes and motile invertebrates), decreasing the potential for damage to livestock and the beneficial microbes that constitute the biological filter."

LOTS of rinsing, followed by more rinsing in RO water is always my final step. 

I also use a hydrogen peroxide step, and apparently, there's been some interest in municipal water treatment research that is looking into using H2O2 as a dechlorinator. Citing my source, which is a peroxide technology company, no doubt promoting another use for its products, so to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt: Hydrogen Peroxide is a Dechlorination Alternative | USP Technologies

Just a few thoughts I figured I'd add to the plant sanitizing discussion.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The dechlorinator will work with iodine that is accessible to the it, if it has been absorbed then it can leach back out later, then the dechlorinator will not change that risk. If I remember correctly, Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry discusses the event and it was originally reported in this article:
Stoskopf, M. K., A. P. Winieski, and L. Pieper. 1985. Iodine toxicity
in poison-arrow frogs, p. 86-88. In M.S. Silberman and S. D. Silberman
(ed.), Proceedings of the Annual Meeting of the American Association
of Zoo Veterinarians, Philadelphia. American Association of Zoo Veterinarians,
Philadelphia. 

some comments 

Ed


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