# Confused about tinc morphs...



## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

...especially the Sipaliwini ones 

I'm looking for a little clarification on the subject because I'm almost certainly getting a tinctorius morph for my first darts (hopefully a pair or 2.1 trio). There seem to be several commonly used names for a few of the tinc morphs but I don't want to confuse any of these synonymous terms for hybrid names (or vice versa). 

Alright so there's Blue Sip, Green Sip, and True Sip that are all seperate and true morphs? But then I've seen Yellow Sip as well. Is Yellow Sip a real morph or just Green Sip with higher saturation of yellow (or a hybrid)? Also I've seen many frogs marked as Kutari/Koetari/New River seperately from Blue Sip and I had previously thought that both of these names referred to the same locality. Then again, I've also seen frogs side by side marked as New River, and Kutari/Koetari River as seperate morphs which furthers my confusion. 

Lastly... Are Brazilian Yellow Heads also called Brazilian Cobalts?

If anyone could clear up any part of this for me I'd be eternally grateful. I've searched for some more specific information on this and didn't find much that was definitive. I have looked over Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide quite extensively but I'd still really appreciate a little real time guidance on what to believe and what to disregard as far as these tinc morph names are concerned.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Hmm. It seems that there more people than just myself who are unsure about true tinc morphs


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

patience grasshopper 2 hours isn't a long time to wait


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

tincs can be especially confusing! I am almost 100% positive that new river and blue sips are different and should not be mixed. Never heard of a yellow sip either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Hope that gets you started.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

I don't think thier is a yellow sip..the yellow is probably just a green that looks yellow. I have seen green sips that have a yellow tint to them.
Brian


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

MJ said:


> patience grasshopper 2 hours isn't a long time to wait


Ya sorry  I was commenting more on the number of views than the lack of responses... I blame the SuperBowl!! 


And thanks so much for the help so far guys!!


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Ok so this particular breeder seems to be a credible source:
Herpetologic.net
(Go to "Frogs" then "Availability" for species and morphs.)

There seems to be a couple of inconsistencies between that particular list and the one at Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide, being that the former lists Koetari/Kutari and New River as different morphs and the latter lists them as the same. Yet on the former I see no mention of Blue Sipaliwini morph... I may have to e-mail some of these breeders with questions.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i was gonna say Herpetologic.net offers a yellow sipaliwini, and i've heard of off spring from the blue sipaliwini being both blue and also green. my blue sips do not look like the new rivers or the koetari rivers on that particular site. they do not look like the blue sips that are shown in the morph guide at www.tropical-experience.nl . . .i really cant find a morph on that site that looks like the blue sips in my collection... although i did however just notice that the blue sips they have shown on the website look almost identical the the cross breed they have listed Agreja, which is an azureus x powderblue. i had to do a double take and make sure it was not the same picture!!


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

also brazilian yellow heads(BYH) and brazilian cobalts are two different morphs.


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

basshummper said:


> also brazilian yellow heads(BYH) and brazilian cobalts are two different morphs.


Brazilian Yellowheads, Brazilian Cobalts, and D. Tinc. "Brazil" are all the same.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

realy? then are brazilian cobalts different from nominant cobalts?


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I've seen your blue sips RedEye and while they're stunning, I do agree that they don't look just like any of the ones pictured. It's starting to look like all of the Sips (blue, yellow, green) could be considered seperate morphs, even though you can get greens from blues, etc. Or maybe, more accurately, they're all different color strains of the same morph? It seems to me that the True Sip is definitely separate from the other Sips, but I guess I'll wait for someone to come in and correct any misconceptions I'm stating . 

Thanks for the answers guys . Hopefully I'm closer to getting this whole thing straight.


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

basshummper said:


> realy? then are brazilian cobalts different from nominant cobalts?


Yes. What is considered "nominant" is the French Guiana dwarf tinc. The Brazilians have varying amounts of yellow on their backs and sides but all have yellow or even orange heads.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

Tim F said:


> Yes. What is considered "nominant" is the French Guiana dwarf tinc. The Brazilians have varying amounts of yellow on their backs and sides but all have yellow or even orange heads.


ok so that’s where I made my mistake. thanks for correcting me!


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

basshummper said:


> ok so that’s where I made my mistake. thanks for correcting me!


You're very welcome!


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

well Marina im pretty sure no one will ever get the tinctorius morphing 100% straight. . . i do agree with you about the true sip morph being seperate from the blue/green/lime green/yellow. . . if all these morphs are found in the same location along the sipaliwini river, then im gonna guess that they do cross these color morphs, im not gonna recommend crossing them in the captivity, for the simple reason that all of the sipaliwini morphs are available here in the us, 

im pretty sure that i remember hearing that 2 blue sips can have blue and green off spring. and also that 2 green sips have blue and green offspring, but predominantly green.... im not 100 percent about this, but i believe i was talking to Aaron about it from aaronsfrogfarm.. maybe if he reads this thread he'll be able to chime in with his expertise 
-Troy


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## garweft (Mar 11, 2008)

I'll add this link to the conversation.

Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc.

In my reading from a while ago I got the idea that all these variants come from the same small area, and are most likely just small variations of the same form. Some breeders claim that their forms breed true while others say they constantly pop greens out of their blues and blues from their greens. The "true sips" aren't a form I've seen available, but seem like a tag stuck to a particularly attractive strain.

I've always thought that the New River variety was synomous with the other sips. I do call mine New Rivers since that is what they were bought as. And if/when I sell offspring that is what they will be sold as. Hopefully someone with more insight can give some definite answers, but looking at most knowledgeable sights I doubt anyone is very certain. Seems more like some "wish" there was a difference more than there actually being one.


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## garweft (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm going to post some pics of my "New Rivers". They look nothing like new rivers posted on some sights, and exactly like them from others. However, every blue sip I've seen posted looks pretty much just like them. The first 5 are from when I first got them last spring, and the last 2 are more recent.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks so much for adding that garweft .

Saurian.net has been a great resource for me, and was the first site I stumbled upon that really showed me a wide variety of the more common species of Dendrobates in the hobby. What he (from Saurian.net) describes as seeing a dart with a yellow horseshoe on it's head (in the link you provided) is what I've also seen labeled as "True Sipaliwini" on the tropical-experience.nl site among others. 

Your frogs (stunning btw!) do seem to share the looks of many Blue Sips I've seen pictured.... But with such a variable and "marbled" look it seems that their pattern could change from one generation to the next. 

Hmmmm. I'm still confused. I'll have to consult some outside sources and post any information I get back here. Thanks much!


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## garweft (Mar 11, 2008)

On the tropical-experience.nl page the pictures posted of what they are calling Blue Sipaliwini / New River / Kutari River look nothing like mine at all. Mine look like what they are calling "Blue Jeans" from eastern French Guiana, nowhere near the Sipaliwini River in southern Surinam.

The real problem seems to be that the names associated with these morphs are supposed to stand for the locality of the original collected frogs. But locality data is not always as accurate as most think/hope it is. It's the same problem with Green Tree Pythons that are sold as locality animals. We associate a specific look to each locality and then sell any animal that fits the look as being from that locality. Meanwhile we don't know for sure if said animal is actually from that area.

The best advise I can give you is to buy from a reputable breeder, and get as much background as you can on their line. And buy animals that fit the look associated with the given morph you are interested in. For example, I would have passed on frogs that look like the Blue sips / New Rivers on the tropical-experience page since they look nothing like anybody else's New Rivers, and look to me like some kind of Azureus cross.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

as with all darts you cant always go by looks when it comes to morphs. im not 100% sure on any of those tincs but i have seen people selling all of these and i dont think someone just decided to call them that purely by color. also you never know if something is labeled because of its import date. for example, the koetari river could have been the first imports and now they imported them as new river out of confusion. again thats an example of what it COULD be.

the best thing you can do is keep things seperate unless you know they are a certain bloodline of a certain morph. just because the blue sips have green froglets sometimes doesnt mean they interbreed in the wild and should do the same in captivity. just be sure you keep things seperate unless you know for a fact what they are.


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## garweft (Mar 11, 2008)

I'm surprised that no one had anything else to add.

BTW, the frogs I posted earlier are descendants of Patricia Gruenebergs / Vanishing Jewels line.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

nice looking frogs. if someone local had them i would add them to my collection as well.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Blue sips don`t have the heavily spotted legs of your new river pic`d here. Yes, I had 2 very blue parents throwing green offspring often and the female was wc and the male came from 2 blues. Supposedly they all came in together and the yellows or some of the yellows were from a different area. I can`t exactly remember exactly what was up w/ the yellows. I remember mike shroms leopard sips from back in the day. Yellows that threw all yellows.



garweft said:


> I'm going to post some pics of my "New Rivers". They look nothing like new rivers posted on some sights, and exactly like them from others. However, every blue sip I've seen posted looks pretty much just like them. The first 5 are from when I first got them last spring, and the last 2 are more recent.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I wrote to a couple of breeders to see what they had to say on the subject and Patrick Nabors of Saurian.net was kind enough to give me a lengthy response . 

"Hi Marina, thanks for your interest. I am afraid that I cant offer you any conclusive or concrete info. One thing I can tell you is that the interior of Suriname is not an area often visited by frog collectors or scientists. Most dart frogs from Suriname or other countries for that matter, are collected by native people, who prefer to keep their collecting locations secret, to avoid having their hunting grounds "poached" by others. So collection data is often missing, or even worse, locations are sometimes incorrectly given to create confusion. 
My guess is that yes, these three tinc forms are seperate localities. However, I believe that blue and green sips live together, and possibly yellow as well, but I have no knowledge of this. Blue and Green sips came in at the same time in the same shipments, in 1997, and were supposed to be from the same locality. New River and Koetaris appear to be different frogs to me, from the blue sip. "


So I suppose just like others had speculated, there is no definitive answer.


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## garweft (Mar 11, 2008)

Marinarawr said:


> I wrote to a couple of breeders to see what they had to say on the subject and Patrick Nabors of Saurian.net was kind enough to give me a lengthy response .
> 
> "Hi Marina, thanks for your interest. I am afraid that I cant offer you any conclusive or concrete info. One thing I can tell you is that the interior of Suriname is not an area often visited by frog collectors or scientists. Most dart frogs from Suriname or other countries for that matter, are collected by native people, who prefer to keep their collecting locations secret, to avoid having their hunting grounds "poached" by others. So collection data is often missing, or even worse, locations are sometimes incorrectly given to create confusion.
> My guess is that yes, these three tinc forms are seperate localities. However, I believe that blue and green sips live together, and possibly yellow as well, but I have no knowledge of this. Blue and Green sips came in at the same time in the same shipments, in 1997, and were supposed to be from the same locality. New River and Koetaris appear to be different frogs to me, from the blue sip. "
> ...



That's what I was hinting at in one of my earlier posts



garweft said:


> The real problem seems to be that the names associated with these morphs are supposed to stand for the locality of the original collected frogs. But locality data is not always as accurate as most think/hope it is. It's the same problem with Green Tree Pythons that are sold as locality animals. We associate a specific look to each locality and then sell any animal that fits the look as being from that locality. Meanwhile we don't know for sure if said animal is actually from that area.


I have a lot more experience with snakes and geckos and know that, more often than not, locality data is useless. Since the majority of collecting comes from people native of the region, who may collect from a variety of different areas, and then they are all lumped together under what may be recorded as a false location. I know my favorite fishing and hunting spots, not to mention my herping spots, are all a closely guarded secret.

I only really trust about 5-6 locality specific reptiles in the trade today. 2 of those are cornsnakes, and the rest are alterna....lol


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## Marcus (Apr 18, 2004)

Hi all,

I was terrible busy with a housemovement this year so a late reply.
I now know that the green sipaliwini's are NOT living near the blue ones. I found the green ones during an expedition last year. In the forest, with the bright sun, they all looked very yellow. Most of the animels we found were yellow and 'became' green in the shadow of the trees. We did not found these animals near the Sipaliwini Rivier, Kutari River or New River but in the eastern area of Surinam. Many miles away from the blue Sipaliwini morph.
The wide diversity in color and pattern in the offspring is a problem with the blue sipaliwini morph. Some are dark blue, some are normal blue and some are light blue (almsot white).
The only way to find out is going to the area where they live in Surinam. Maybe on our next expedition. We wrote in our Tropical-Experience Magazine(dutch language but the images are readable for everyone) about our trip to green Sipaliwini's.

Yellow Sip is a real morph, it's a Green Sip with higher saturation of yellow. No hybrid.

Lastly... Are Brazilian Yellow Heads also called Brazilian Cobalts? --> Yes


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Your frogs look very similar to the Oyapock tincs I acquired from Patrick Nabors. 



garweft said:


> I'm going to post some pics of my "New Rivers". They look nothing like new rivers posted on some sights, and exactly like them from others. However, every blue sip I've seen posted looks pretty much just like them. The first 5 are from when I first got them last spring, and the last 2 are more recent.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

they certainly do NOT look like oyapocks. oyapocks have solid white on a black background. they also do not have the tight circular webbing that these other tincs show. they almost always have a large black void that follows the profile of their back up to their "neck". saying these are like oyapock is like saying that a christobal is a man creek, because they are both red and have blue-ish legs. 

it doesnt work like that and if your oyapocks have this tight circular pattern or blue and white on their backs and sides, then you should contact the breeder because you may not have what you think you do.

james


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## brog32 (Oct 28, 2005)

I don't think Richard was saying these are oyapocks. He seems to be referring to the light coloration (almost white) of these sips. I have seen his oyapocks and they are definitely oyapocks.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

im not suggesting that he has the wrong frogs, just that saying one frog is similar because of coloration or pattern is somewhat absurd in the sense of dart frogs. look at banded immitators and banded (yellow) fantasticus (R.summersi)

tried to load pics but the comp is being really slow.

im not trying to offend anyone here just saying that with respect to dart frogs looking similar really has no value. many of us would look at the imis ad fants i just described earlier and see two identical frogs, perhaps with some size difference, but to the trained eye there are small pattern and color traits that are somewhat standard for each particular morph.


james


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks very much for the response! Better late then never . It's very interesting that the 'Green Sipaliwini' morph is actually from Suriname. It also makes me wonder how many of the Sipaliwini morphs in the hobby have been accidentally hybridized based on bad locality data.... I suppose that's a hazard for all species/morphs of PDF though. Thanks again Marcus .



Marcus said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I was terrible busy with a housemovement this year so a late reply.
> I now know that the green sipaliwini's are NOT living near the blue ones. I found the green ones during an expedition last year. In the forest, with the bright sun, they all looked very yellow. Most of the animels we found were yellow and 'became' green in the shadow of the trees. We did not found these animals near the Sipaliwini Rivier, Kutari River or New River but in the eastern area of Surinam. Many miles away from the blue Sipaliwini morph.
> ...


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

WOW!!! take it down a peg.



james67 said:


> they certainly do NOT look like oyapocks. oyapocks have solid white on a black background. they also do not have the tight circular webbing that these other tincs show. they almost always have a large black void that follows the profile of their back up to their "neck". saying these are like oyapock is like saying that a christobal is a man creek, because they are both red and have blue-ish legs.
> 
> it doesnt work like that and if your oyapocks have this tight circular pattern or blue and white on their backs and sides, then you should contact the breeder because you may not have what you think you do.
> 
> james


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Buying frogs based on their "appearance" (which you seem to fixate on) is frought with all sorts of perils (the same as bad locality data). In D. tinctorius (the only group I am working with), there is little to no locality data and no standard look for each morph that does not include natural variation.

The best we can do is to try to acquire frogs that are as close to the original importations as possible, and from reputable breeders that have been in the hobby longer than we have been.

But, really, just try to slow down and take a deep breath. This is supposed to be a HOBBY!!

Take care, Richard.



james67 said:


> im not suggesting that he has the wrong frogs, just that saying one frog is similar because of coloration or pattern is somewhat absurd in the sense of dart frogs. look at banded immitators and banded (yellow) fantasticus (R.summersi)
> 
> tried to load pics but the comp is being really slow.
> 
> ...


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Buying frogs based on their "appearance" (which you seem to fixate on) is frought with all sorts of perils (the same as bad locality data). In D. tinctorius (the only group I am working with), there is little to no locality data and no standard look for each morph that does not include natural variation.


Unfortunately, appearance-based visual identification is the method most frequently used in (perhaps eroneously) identifying one morph over another. One only needs to look at some recent threads asking for identification of a low-cost pumilio on KS identified only as blue as being Cauchero or Darklands. 

For polymorphic species like D. tinctorius and O. pumilio (and there are lots of others, mind you), visual identification is a slippery slope. Factor in the the imitator group, and you've got a rat's nest of confusion.


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