# Epiweb background alternatives



## puremanb (Apr 10, 2009)

I want to do a background in Epiweb to create a drip wall that I can grow moss on but I can't justify spending for it I want to cover a fairly large tank and i was thinking, What's the different between epiweb and the coarse sponge used for filtering.


It's a hell of a a lot cheaper to buy it in bulk and it's pretty similar.


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## gillenws (Jul 13, 2009)

this has been discussed on here, scrubbing pads specifically... i couldn't find anywhere that anyone had actually given this a try and reported :-/ it seems feasible as long as you can find a similar material and get it at a substantial discount. if the discount to the epiweb price isn't significant it's probably better just to give in and get epiweb... on that note, i'd love to hear if anyone has actually had success with this!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

honestly i have seen them side by side and the only difference is color and the filter pad is a little more coarse, so they will do the same job, but do a search on hear for experiences with epiweb


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

I have such bad experiences with epiweb. I recommend tree fern panels. I have yet to see someone other than the manufacturer with proof this product even works. I would wait until some board members share their experiences.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah it kind of makes me worried after someone reported on here that it killed 2 bicolors by getting their feet stuck in it being used as a background


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

gillenws said:


> this has been discussed on here, scrubbing pads specifically... i couldn't find anywhere that anyone had actually given this a try and reported ... i'd love to hear if anyone has actually had success with this!


Will,
Yes you do know someone who has tried scrubbing pads--me! I've tried an alternative to Epiweb called Doodlebug scrubbing pads by 3M. Disclaimer: I have not tried Epiweb and cannot offer an A/B comparison, but the Doodlebug pads silicone easily to my tanks and plants root nicely to them. I've used them for over a year now w/o any negative observations...
Scott


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

3M Doodlebug Brown Scrub n Strip Pad-Doodlebug 3M










and they come in different colours, I believe


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

Im sorry but are you all overlooking the fact you are using industrial abrassive pads as a background in a naturalistic vivarium? IMO, vivariums should be made using the most natural products available, and not synthetics. If you are going to chose a background because of longevity, then you might as well use plastic plants and have paper towels on the bottom of the tank.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Epiweb is not natural....correct?

I am totally tracking you on the natural viv thing btw. I am against plastics for the most part as well.

but

I really think that the porous composition for a background really needs to be explored and tested for plant and moss growth and the ability to create a drip or water wall without decomposition of wood.


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

d-prime said:


> Im sorry but are you all overlooking the fact you are using industrial abrassive pads as a background in a naturalistic vivarium? IMO, vivariums should be made using the most natural products available, and not synthetics. If you are going to chose a background because of longevity, then you might as well use plastic plants and have paper towels on the bottom of the tank.


I'm sorry, but really think your logic is a bit weak here. Egg crate is completely unnatural as well as expanding foam. But we use it for its functionality, and even though it doesn't look that great, it can be covered up. We choose real plants over fake plants because fake plants look terrible and real plants help hold humidity. We have soil / leaf instead of paper towels for micro fauna, plants, and hiding spots. Why can't we use synthetics if they enhance a totally *natural* look we can't achieve without them?

Honestly all of the best vivs on this board use synthetic materials in some way or another I don't see how it takes away from anything if the viv still looks great.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

d-prime said:


> Im sorry but are you all overlooking the fact you are using industrial abrassive pads as a background in a naturalistic vivarium? IMO, vivariums should be made using the most natural products available, and not synthetics. If you are going to chose a background because of longevity, then you might as well use plastic plants and have paper towels on the bottom of the tank.



What's wrong with using a synthetic material if it outlast's tree fern panels? You don't have to rip you viv apart every few years when it rots.

It is also more environmentaly responsible no?

What difference would it make if it was covered in mosses and other plants?


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

rollei said:


> I'm sorry, but really think your logic is a bit weak here. Egg crate is completely unnatural as well as expanding foam. But we use it for its functionality, and even though it doesn't look that great, it can be covered up. We choose real plants over fake plants because fake plants look terrible and real plants help hold humidity. We have soil / leaf instead of paper towels for micro fauna, plants, and hiding spots. Why can't we use synthetics if they enhance a totally *natural* look we can't achieve without them?
> 
> Honestly all of the best vivs on this board use synthetic materials in some way or another I don't see how it takes away from anything if the viv still looks great.


It appears *your* logic is flawed here. Firstly epiweb or any other synthetic background holds no humidity, and looks unnatural. I compared it to plastic plants and paper towels following the logic of using a synthetic background. Egg crate is not replacing any natural medium, such as a background to grow plants, its just an inert material used to create drainage. Finally, the greatest vivariums of all time are definatley NOT the ones using foam. It holds no humidity whatsoever and although it looks nice, doesn't even benefit plants. 
Take a look for yourself..
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/6447-display-vivarium-update-planted.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/9098-construction-completed.html


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

frogfreak said:


> What's wrong with using a synthetic material if it outlast's tree fern panels? You don't have to rip you viv apart every few years when it rots.
> 
> It is also more environmentaly responsible no?
> 
> What difference would it make if it was covered in mosses and other plants?


To manufacture a plastic product, even if it is recycled it requires processing which most certainly will effect the environment. The problem with a synthetic material is that it doesnt hold any water, which is key in a vivarium. Not only have there been many accounts of frogs being injured by these *abrasive * scrubbing pads, but they also look unatural and for the most part have had no testing by the majority of the people in the dart frog hobby. I have never seen one image of epiweb or any synthetic material of the same nature working successfully in a vivarium that wast a picture from the manufacturer. All i am saying is I have vivariums with epiweb, I have some with GS and some with tree fern/cork and I have the most moss growth and overall success with the xaxim.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Good points.....some very good points brought about here.

The synthetic stuff does not _hold _moisture per se but it would allow for the most effective way to have constant water, like a drip wall without the eventuality of decompostion like tree fern or cork panel right?


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

d-prime said:


> The problem with a synthetic material is that it doesnt hold any water, which is key in a vivarium.


This is the biggest misconception about both vivariums and EpiWeb.

There is no, I repeat, no reason that anything in your vivarium needs to hold water. I guarantee if you provide the necessary substrates and nutrients that regular misting with immediate drainage you can maintain a beautiful, naturally planted vivarium.

Second, EpiWeb is NOT DESIGNED TO HOLD WATER. In fact...it is designed to do exactly the opposite. The material was initially designed for orchid (and other epiphytic plant) growers to use for mounting their plants. These plants require soaking with water but rot if left wet. The same holds true to most species of broms that are used in vivariums. 

EpiWeb was created to replace the standard material at the time, tree fern panels. Tree fern panels work great however they are messy, rot over time and grow extremely slowly which is resulting in the overharvesting of the parent plant. 

I think it is important to understand the intended use of these products before bashing them for not doing what you assume they are meant for. I use sheets of EpiWeb for propagating mosses and riccia very successfully. The mosses themselves "wick" the moisture across and excess moisture drains immediately through the EpiWeb preventing rot and algae growth. A second use is the substrate cubes. They are much lighter in weight than the hydroton stone, much more natural looking (all you see is dark brown) than egg crate and get the job of keeping the ground layer above water, providing plants a rooting area and allowing for growth of beneficial organisms as well as anything available today.

Not sure why people who have not even tried these products get so heated in defending/bashing them but quite frankly there is no right or wrong...simply your preference.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

d-prime said:


> To manufacture a plastic product, even if it is recycled it requires processing which most certainly will effect the environment. The problem with a synthetic material is that it doesnt hold any water, which is key in a vivarium. Not only have there been many accounts of frogs being injured by these *abrasive * scrubbing pads, but they also look unatural and for the most part have had no testing by the majority of the people in the dart frog hobby. I have never seen one image of epiweb or any synthetic material of the same nature working successfully in a vivarium that wast a picture from the manufacturer. All i am saying is I have vivariums with epiweb, I have some with GS and some with tree fern/cork and I have the most moss growth and overall success with the xaxim.


We are at the point now where we have no alternative but to look at synthetic materials to replace what nature has given us. There is to much demand for natural products. What is more damaging to the environment? Manufacturing a plastic under controlled circumstances or cutting down more trees?

Would I build a deck out of redwood? NOT

Composite decking would be fine and outlast any natural product.


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

d-prime said:


> It appears *your* logic is flawed here. Firstly epiweb or any other synthetic background holds no humidity, and looks unnatural. I compared it to plastic plants and paper towels following the logic of using a synthetic background. Egg crate is not replacing any natural medium, such as a background to grow plants, its just an inert material used to create drainage. Finally, the greatest vivariums of all time are definatley NOT the ones using foam. It holds no humidity whatsoever and although it looks nice, doesn't even benefit plants.
> Take a look for yourself..
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/6447-display-vivarium-update-planted.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/9098-construction-completed.html


d-prime, you're completely missing the point of epiweb. COMPLETELY. Epiweb is used to mount epiphyic plants and let vines grow on it. Thus plants will completely cover it over time and frogs will not be able to touch it. You can not see is so there is no aesthetic loss either. 

Once you take this in to account, you will be able to see why a synthetic background is okay and all the points you make will become invalid. 

I never said the good vivs use foam. I said the good vivs use synthetic materials and obviously unnatural materials. Heck, the viv you mentioned had fake vines. 

I don't even know what you're trying to say anymore. If you want to can you consolidate your points?


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

I honestly didn't want to start a debate here, I was just saying that I have tested both epiweb, and xaxim over the same period of time with the same lighting and misting and the epiweb just doesn't cut it for me. Like mentioned, it is a matter of personal preference, and these statements are based on my experience. I am getting responses from people who haven't even tested epiweb. Do as you wish, but IMO, a vivarium should be made with matrials mother nature provided, not products manufactured to be sold as scrubbing pads and then labeled epiweb. 

Happy frogging.


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## gillenws (Jul 13, 2009)

mother nature didn't create the plastic that's used to hold your vivarium together, nor did she create any of the tools used to build said vive. just some food for thought.

anyways yes i have seen scott's vive with the scrubbing pads and many of the plants grow really well on it. i suppose i was more curious as to the growth of moss on it with a drip wall similar to the epiweb IIS idea.

d-prime... maybe you could show us a couple of pics from your vives with both epiweb and xaxim for some comparison of empirical evidence. i think that would be beneficial as there are not many pics floating around the board that i've seen of vives built with any of these materials.


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

d-prime said:


> I honestly didn't want to start a debate here, I was just saying that I have tested both epiweb, and xaxim over the same period of time with the same lighting and misting and the epiweb just doesn't cut it for me. Like mentioned, it is a matter of personal preference, and these statements are based on my experience. I am getting responses from people who haven't even tested epiweb. Do as you wish, but IMO, a vivarium should be made with matrials mother nature provided, not products manufactured to be sold as scrubbing pads and then labeled epiweb.
> Happy frogging.


I don't know whether to take this the wrong way or not... its interspersed with things I agree with:
His personal experience...
...didn't want to start a debate...

and those I take issue with:
...sold as scrubbing pads and then labeled epiweb.
...made with materials(sic)mother nature provided...

I presented an option to epiweb in the form of Doodlebug scrubbing pads. Who here has tried to imply that its something other than that? 

Scott


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

SMenigoz said:


> I don't know whether to take this the wrong way or not... its interspersed with things I agree with:
> His personal experience...
> ...didn't want to start a debate...
> 
> ...


I have no problem with the "try to be green - use natural products" / mother nature debate. I always will encourage vigorous debate on that issue.

but

I must have missed it at first read, but thanks to Scott's post....I do indeed see something odd (in bold above).

That statement does need some clarification / expansion.......


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## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

d-prime said:


> I have never seen one image of epiweb or any synthetic material of the same nature working successfully in a vivarium that wast a picture from the manufacturer.


Here are some pics of an Epiweb dripwall that was done by someone that didn't come from the manufacturer. I think it turned out really well. Enjoy.
My latest growing place - The Orchid Source - Orchid Forum
Dave


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

oh my....

Gotta be "European"...


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

iljjlm said:


> Here are some pics of an Epiweb dripwall that was done by someone that didn't come from the manufacturer. I think it turned out really well. Enjoy.
> My latest growing place - The Orchid Source - Orchid Forum
> Dave


please note that this guy is the "inventor" of epiweb


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## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

Go figure. I had no idea. It just goes to show that you never know who you are talking to on the interent.
If you search his posts on that site he does have some amazing pics.
Dave


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

no problem, it wasn't obvious from the post so i thought i'd mention it.

pictures do look great you're right


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

NathalieB said:


> please note that this guy is the "inventor" of epiweb


It would be great if he would post on this site......add some pics.

Great advertising for a growing market segment....


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Mikael doesn't post here specifically because of the "drama" caused when similar product was being sold as EpiWeb. Apparently there were some unhappy discussions and Mikael really doesn't care much for the stress.

EpiWeb is only one of his hobbies and he typically only participates in forums where he is welcomed, I think preferring to spend his time with his creations rather than arguing with fussy humans.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

UmbraSprite said:


> Mikael doesn't post here specifically because of the "drama" caused when similar product was being sold as EpiWeb. Apparently there were some unhappy discussions and Mikael really doesn't care much for the stress.
> 
> EpiWeb is only one of his hobbies and he typically only participates in forums where he is welcomed


 
It's certainly his right to join a forum discussion...or not.

I'm sorry to hear that he does not consider us friendly.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Phil I think a few bad eggs left a bad impression with him. He told me he would leave the EpiWeb talk here to me....which is unfortunate because I am as new to it as everyone else.

Some of the best information comes from the orchid boards, in particular in Europe, where it is easier to get and has been in use much longer.


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