# Earth worms in terrarium?



## terrariumman

I was wondering, are earth worms good for a terrarium?


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## GSXR_MURRHEE

I have some in my 75 gal, they don't seem to hurt anything. Some people like them because they aerate the soil. If you have them and want to get rid of them you can kill them off using dry ice.


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## dwdragon

I actually was wondering about this as well because earth worms are generally a good processor for decomposing material and as you said good for aerating the soil. They also like a constant humid / moist soil though they do need to dry out once in awhile or they get soggy (personal experience we used to keep coffee cans of them to go fishing with).

I was a little worried that they might bother the frogs or the frogs would try to eat them and they would be too big and choke the frogs or something. I can't imagine that frogs would like them much they ooze nasty smelling and from my understanding tasting liquid. I'm not even sure why fish like them.

I also wasn't sure what this would do to things like wood lice and springtails. It was part of my idea of a variety of decomposers in my viv.


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## jehitch

What substrate are you using? If it has a high percentage of non-organic material (such as clay) the worms will aerate it, but if it's a highly organic substrate (such as coir or potting soil) worms can turn it into muck pretty quickly, IME.
Jim


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## terrariumman

My substrate is made up of: cocofiber, sand, chopped up oak leaves, and orchid bark. Don't earth worms also make plant fertilizer too because they poop?


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## Nubster

Yeah, you can actually buy bags of worm poo for your plants.


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## terrariumman

Nubster said:


> Yeah, you can actually buy bags of worm poo for your plants.


I would rather get a few worms from my back yard for free rather than buy poop. lol


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## terrariumman




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## Otis

Whenever I notice earthworms, it is always followed by an enormous boom of springtails.


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## dwdragon

Do you think they would survive in a mixture of Coconut husk chips, Fir Bark, Peat Moss, and dead Sphagnum Moss? That's what I've got on the floor of my viv.


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## Otis

definitly. they live everywhere, they live in droplet of water, moss, plants, gravel... i have seen them just about everywhere in my vivs.


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## jehitch

terrariumman said:


> My substrate is made up of: cocofiber, sand, chopped up oak leaves, and orchid bark. Don't earth worms also make plant fertilizer too because they poop?


The sand and orchid bark should help the substrate hold up better to the worm's activity. Worm castings do help provide nutrients, too.


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## BullfrogGreg

dwdragon said:


> I can't imagine that frogs would like them much they ooze nasty smelling and from my understanding tasting liquid.


All of my frogs that i've ever had that weren't darts have loved eating earthworms, but yea there is no way a dart could eat them.


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## CHuempfner

I was going to say.. Many frogs and small snakes eat earthworms in the wild. Dart frogs are just too small to enjoy one of those suckers. I think they would do more good than harm to a viv, but you probably don't want to have baby earthworms...keep them under control. They stink VERY badly if you have too many!
Crystal


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## kristy55303

i'd skip. very potential vectors for parasites. kristy


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## Drew

kristy55303 said:


> i'd skip. very potential vectors for parasites. kristy


Exactly, I wouldn't purposely add them.


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## Dmg85

I know this is a long dead post but I am seriously considering adding a single captive bred European giant earthworm to my 20 gallon hex terrarium to add aeration to soil and cleanup help along with springtails and isopods. Seeing as how they require a pair to breed I think I will be safe? any thoughts?


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## Socratic Monologue

Dmg85 said:


> I know this is a long dead post but I am seriously considering adding a single captive bred European giant earthworm to my 20 gallon hex terrarium to add aeration to soil and cleanup help along with springtails and isopods. Seeing as how they require a pair to breed I think I will be safe? any thoughts?


I've not heard of springs and isos needing any "help"; if they can't keep the organics processing, then the viv is radically overstocked. 

Nor does proper viv substrate need aeration; I'm under the impression that earthworms "aerate" mineral soil by bringing organics into areas that lack them, but viv substrate is all organic except for the charcoal (which itself is there to keep things from compacting).


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## Kmc

Earthworms can host many other organisms, and I dont know if a commercial culture source is any seamless insurance. I would almost count it as mixing species to include them. They are dynamic and intimate in presence.

I do know they are good eating, but with some reluctance stopped using them because I found alternatives. But I used them for years and still would, for turtles. 


It just depends on how careful one wants to be, in things like food sources, cross over practices (many which are awesomely useful, to be sure) and unknown use impacts of products.

Animals dont always expire or even become observably ill in what we might perceive as relatable time frames. 

For me, its a method of controlled deduction. It helps preserve a diagnostic lens to better troubleshooting, as well as stand as preventative measure.

It can be inconvenient but you get used to it, and have far less problems in the long run.

I got my chops taking on other peoples unwanted problems, if I seem a little tight in affect, its a thirsty horse Im patting, and only mean to help.


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## Louis

I've had Eisenia fetida red tiger worms in a vivarium for more than 2 years now. They haven't caused any problems. I didn't introduce them on purpose but I do have a wormery outside and assume eggs got in somehow. I used worm castings in the viv but I baked them first so it's a mystery how they got in.
Anyway their population has never grown out of control but at night they slither around every inch of the tank. If you catch them out by turning the lights on you can find them in some quite surprising places.


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## Encyclia

Louis said:


> I've had Eisenia fetida red tiger worms in a vivarium for more than 2 years now. They haven't caused any problems. I didn't introduce them on purpose but I do have a wormery outside and assume eggs got in somehow. I used worm castings in the viv but I baked them first so it's a mystery how they got in.
> Anyway their population has never grown out of control but at night they slither around every inch of the tank. If you catch them out by turning the lights on you can find them in some quite surprising places.


Louis, what substrate do you have in the tank that has them? Do you think that there are some substrates (I am thinking Turface) that would not allow them to live long term?

Mark


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## Louis

The substrate is an inch of peat covered in about 6 inches of mixed leaf litter with a lot of crushed and chopped twigs, branches and seed pods from oak and beech trees mixed in and a lot of larger 'savu' seed pods from Cariniana legalis. There is a clay ball drainage layer beneath that. I never see the worms in the drainage layer which is seperated from the substrate by weed suppression fabric although springtails get down there.
I make the substrate seperately and also mix in some crushed cuttlebone for the microfauna. I top it up as it gets depleted by the microfauna. I think the inclusion of plenty of woody items like the twigs and beech mast is more important to give the substrate some structure and porosity if you have worms in there. 
There are very few plants actually rooted directly in the substrate, only Asplenium scolopendrium, Bolbitis heteroclita 'difformis', Cryptocoryne parva and some Marcgravia. Because the worms movie around so much at night though I do notice worm castings sometimes around on various branches and wood in the tank which quickly dissolve during the next heavy misting cycle so I believe they are helping to fertilise my epiphytes.
I have honestly been surprised that I've never had to remove any worms but somehow they appear to maintain a steady population. This is a total stab in the dark but I'd guess there's maybe about ten of them in there although there could be more, the only time I ever see them is if i catch them out at night when they climb literally everywhere around the tank. 
I also have some kind of small slug in the same tank that doesn't touch any of my plants apart from the flowers of my Pleurothallis alleni, it's frustrating but both them and the worms are such efficient members of the clean up crew for removing visible faeces that I tolerate them. 
This tank has been running for probably about three years now, I don't know that I would bother deliberately adding worms to any other tanks but I wouldn't be the least bit concerned if I noticed that they got in somehow. If I was building an enclosure for a frog that actually ate worms I would for sure add them.
Comparing it to mixing species given how totally ubiquitous worms are as a feeder species for captive amphibians seems a little overly cautious to me but if anyone has information that dart frogs are much _more_ vulnerable to parasites and other pathogens than other amphibians I would be curious to see it.

EDIT - just adding that I _don't_ keep dart frogs in this tank. It houses micro geckos and they may potentially eat some of the baby worms and control the population although I have never witnessed this. They produce a lot more visible faeces than darts and in greater quantities in hard to reach places, between the worms and slugs there's no sign of it by the morning as both really enjoy eating faeces.


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## Dmg85

That's good to know-ish. Haha, seems like a split crowd. But currently my tank is just cycling, it's been running for a little over a month now with some springtails and isopods, and of course plants, moss, and leaf litter. I'm not sure even what I hope to achieve by adding a worm, 
Probably just more diversity and a more natural soil environment. Also i can't seem to find worm casings to help boost my plant growth locally (Canada eh). Maybe I'm just curious. I will likely add a tinc or two in the future but I'm no rush. I came here from saltwater fish/ reef keeping, I have a degree or two of patience, unless I see something shiny at the LFS,..err LPS.


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## Socratic Monologue

Louis said:


> Comparing it to mixing species given how totally ubiquitous worms are as a feeder species for captive amphibians seems a little overly cautious to me but if anyone has information that dart frogs are much _more_ vulnerable to parasites and other pathogens than other amphibians I would be curious to see it.


Though I might agree that this may not be completely analogous to mixing, a person could make the case that perhaps earthworms shouldn't be as ubiquitous as they are as feeders, if it true that they are more likely than other feeders to carry pathogens (which may be the case), or in light of the fact that they are very often procured from sources that are not assumed to be maintaining any sort of nutritional quality or microbial cleanliness in their product (bait shops, etc).

On your second point:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10886-018-0930-8

"The present study provides the first evidence that alkaloid variation in a dendrobatid poison frog is associated with differences in inhibition of anuran pathogens, and offers further support that alkaloid defenses in poison frogs confer protection against both pathogens and predators."

If Dendrobatid alkaloids function to protect against pathogens, and darts (unlike most -- all? -- other amphibians) lose that protection in captivity, it follows that there is a relevant difference between keeping worms with darts and e.g. feeding worms to say, an Eastern newt (which continues to be toxic in captivity).

I'm not trying to prove any point here, but only provide the information you asked for.


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## Louis

Socratic Monologue said:


> On your second point:
> 
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10886-018-0930-8
> 
> "The present study provides the first evidence that alkaloid variation in a dendrobatid poison frog is associated with differences in inhibition of anuran pathogens, and offers further support that alkaloid defenses in poison frogs confer protection against both pathogens and predators."
> 
> If Dendrobatid alkaloids function to protect against pathogens, and darts (unlike most -- all? -- other amphibians) lose that protection in captivity, it follows that there is a relevant difference between keeping worms with darts and e.g. feeding worms to say, an Eastern newt (which continues to be toxic in captivity).
> 
> I'm not trying to prove any point here, but only provide the information you asked for.


That's exactly what I was looking for, thank you, I've often wondered about this. 
I have also read previously that the skin secretions of non venemous frogs produce significantly antimicrobial alkoloid peptides hence why live frogs were used to successfully to preserve fresh milk back in the day.
There's obviously a lot more research to be done in this field but I can see that it might make sense that dart frogs have traded off the ability to produce these natural peptides entirely in favour of concentrating them from food items.


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## Socratic Monologue

Louis said:


> live frogs were used to successfully to preserve fresh milk back in the day.


I did not know this. It explains a lot about why childhood felt like it did, though.


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## Dmg85

On your second point:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10886-018-0930-8

So not being an overly scientific reader is this article referring to the defense mechanism of the skin from the environment or an immune defense from things (food) entering the body? Although either way I figure it shouldn't make much difference as the worms I would purchase would be way too large for a frog to ingest. Either way, that's some great information.


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## Socratic Monologue

The alkaloids on darts are on the skin, so I take this to be a defense against pathogens acquired cutaneously. Whether there is some defense gained simply by the ingestion of the toxic insect prey, I don't know. I haven't read the whole article, which you can download here:

(edit: can't link to a pdf? I'll keep trying to link this)

All cage mates can share pathogens without any animals ingesting those pathogens orally. Chytrid (and other fungi), ranavirus (and ranid herpesvirus, and other viruses), chlamidia (and other bacteria) enter through the skin. 

Likely many intestinal parasites (worms, amobae, etc) can be transmitted via ingestion of cohabitants' fecal material by prey animals (springs, isos, etc).


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## Socratic Monologue

ralphsaporito.weebly.com/uploads/5/9/1/7/59174543/hovey_et_al._2018_-_alkaloid_defenses_against_pathogenic_bacteria.pdf

I had to futz with the URL, but I think this will work. This is the link to the full paper that corresponds to the abstract I linked above. Thanks to the author for putting this out there!


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## Kmc

I think its again, a matter of risk/benefit. 

I wouldnt feed eathworms (no matter what their source) to my two little old men whites treefrogs, but I would feed them to turtles, sturdy ranids, aquatic newts. I have a spotted turtle, personal, that I dont feed earthworms to, but I probably could. Turtles have a high tolerance for commensal loads but I have other foods I feed him, so I use those.

I guess there are just so many hours in a day, and great data to absorb. The vector factor of earthworms is established, and their dynamic and continual contact and ingest of whatever situ they are in is enough for me to not use them as a staple, for who i care for now.


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## Socratic Monologue

I agree, Kmc. I do collect and feed earthworms to _Terrapene_ box turtles, mostly because they really do need a varied diet (more so than any herp I keep). They also pick up parasites and other pathogens a lot, so...


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## Dmg85

Wow, that's a lot to, pardon the pun "ingest". But as I was saying they would not be for feeding, I'm considering the repercussions of adding a large earth worm now wothout having any livestock in my tank yet. It would be a one time thing (unless I find a dead worm in the future) and certainly not something i can see a dart frog attempting to ingest will most likely be the only inhabitant either single or 2 max. I guess it does come down to what would be considered a reasonable risk, something I need to think about.


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## Kmc

Everything your fruit flies touch, your darts ingest. 

The world we do not see, equals or surpasses the one we do. But if you have your heart set on it, it will be a lucky worm im sure


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