# My most ambitious build yet



## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Hello everyone!

After a VERY, VERY long hiatus, I got inspiration from an empty enclosure that I used to house a tree monitor in, and after several months of debating, I finally decided to devote months of effort into making it a full vivarium, the most ambitious I've ever tried by a LONG shot.

I've never even approached a build of this size, but it was the finalized image I had in my head that kept me going. The entire thing is 3 feet wide, 2 feet deep, and 4 feet tall. I spent months working on the background, getting it filled, then filed back, then smoothed down as best as possible. It took something like 10-12 bottles of aquarium-safe silicone caulking to cover the backing with coco fiber, and even still there have been a few small spots where it didn't quite cover. I also used netting cups to mixed effectiveness (there are two that are FAR too horizontal - i could use advice on what to do with them). I used mostly false bottom from Josh's frogs (relatively thin layer), followed by substrate divider, and something like 12 bags of ABG mix. I also used 6 compressed bricks of sphagnum moss (turned out to be too much and so I gave the rest to my big Nile monitor for enrichment), a bag of dried magnolia leaves, and my buddy brought out a bunch of leaves he raked up from his yard (he rinsed them with water, then baked them at 200 degrees for 45 minutes to ensure they were sanitized). I also have two computer fans hooked up to the top of the enclosure, to ensure proper air circulation, and two nozzles that spray in 30 second increments 9 times a day to keep humidity up (but not TOO wet).





































Right now I have a Neoregalia bromeliad from an old tank (it already cloned - I guess I'll see how it does), two Cryptanthus (from an old tank), selaginella, anthurium, and cactus orchid. Problem is I want some more plants in there, especially at least one that will do well in direct light (since most of the others do better in partial shade, I want one that will grow out to provide some shade), and I would really like to have some that either creep UP the cork bark, or can be planted in an elevated position (like in the last photo, that little alcove above and behind the neoregalia) and will drape their leaves downward. Any suggestions for plants to add would be wonderful!

Also, I want to make sure when I get some isopods and whatnot for substrate, I don't have them escaping everywhere. How might I seal those bottom doors in a way that would still allow them to open? Last thing I would REALLY love to do would be to have a sort of speaker to play rainforest ambiance noises in the enclosure (the speaker doesn't have to be in the enclosure itself, but could be mounted outside with a bit of screen to protect it from the cage),that can be changed to frog calls if I wish to do so. Has anyone ever done anything like that before? If so, how did you do it?

Lastly, I haven't actually decided on what kind of animal(s) I would want to put in this enclosure anyways. I obviously love dart frogs, but I don't even know if there is a species of dart that would make full use of all the space this enclosure provides. I won't be getting any animals for a while because I need this enclosure to grow in fully, but ideas are always appreciated!


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

The light fixtures inside the enclosure make me nervous with the humidity and potential frogs making their way to them.


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## Leite02 (Jan 19, 2020)

With all that space, changing the crystals for mesh and protecting the lights I would go for a panther chameleon without a doubt, with more vegetation too!
Great viv and Great work!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

bssknox said:


> The light fixtures inside the enclosure make me nervous with the humidity and potential frogs making their way to them.


Agreed. Most of the frogs I keep would climb up there and try to get burned or shocked. Also, moisture with or without debris like FFs and dust and mold inside and above the sockets is a shock and fire hazard.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I don’t know about frogs, but I’ve been using these in my enclosure for about a year now, I think they would be a little safer:



https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sigma-Electric-2-25-in-LED-White-Switch-Controlled-Floodlight/3345368


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

bssknox said:


> The light fixtures inside the enclosure make me nervous with the humidity and potential frogs making their way to them.


These lights are purely LEDs that give off no heat, but I could probably manage to build some sort of protection around them.


Socratic Monologue said:


> Agreed. Most of the frogs I keep would climb up there and try to get burned or shocked. Also, moisture with or without debris like FFs and dust and mold inside and above the sockets is a shock and fire hazard.


How do I fix this without redoing the entire viv then?


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

What’s the white fixture in the wall in ‘vivarium 5.png’? 

Have you considered covering the white walls and ceiling with something (tree root panels, or similar to the background) to make it look a bit more natural and allow the plants/moss to grow out a bit ? 

Do you have a photo that shows the vivarium in situ? Not sure I get why the doors look like they do. Seems to be a lot of frame involved


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

dendrobateslover said:


> How do I fix this without redoing the entire viv then?


A weatherproof socket (like @Harpspiel linked) is a good start on avoiding the water-in-fixture problem. I don't know that it would be safe enough for frog contact. Would you plug it in and let a child lick it all over (considering only electrical safety, not germs)? That's how safe it need to be, because that's essentially what a frog is going to do. I myself wouldn't lick the connection of any screw-in light -- I realize the threaded part of the connection is designed to be the neutral line, but I've checked enough house wiring to know that there are plenty of reverse polarity electrical outlets in use. Of course, checking the polarity on both fixtures (when you install properly weatherproof ones) and plugging into a confirmed functional GFCI would likely be sufficient.

Are the lights glass? A broken glass bulb in a dart viv would be an almost unsalvagable situation, I think. It would necessitate a complete strip-down to bare walls, and discarding all materials, probably. I don't actually know what the globe on LEDs is made of.

Personally, I'd get the LED viv lighting of my choice, and then cut a screened area in the top to accommodate it on the outside, where it won't be degraded by water and won't hurt anyone. The viv looks to need more ventilation anyway, so the screen cutout is a good idea regardless of lighting.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:


> A weatherproof socket (like @Harpspiel linked) is a good start on avoiding the water-in-fixture problem. I don't know that it would be safe enough for frog contact. Would you plug it in and let a child lick it all over (considering only electrical safety, not germs)? That's how safe it need to be, because that's essentially what a frog is going to do. I myself wouldn't lick the connection of any screw-in light -- I realize the threaded part of the connection is designed to be the neutral line, but I've checked enough house wiring to know that there are plenty of reverse polarity electrical outlets in use. Of course, checking the polarity on both fixtures (when you install properly weatherproof ones) and plugging into a confirmed functional GFCI would likely be sufficient.
> 
> Are the lights glass? A broken glass bulb in a dart viv would be an almost unsalvagable situation, I think. It would necessitate a complete strip-down to bare walls, and discarding all materials, probably. I don't actually know what the globe on LEDs is made of.
> 
> Personally, I'd get the LED viv lighting of my choice, and then cut a screened area in the top to accommodate it on the outside, where it won't be degraded by water and won't hurt anyone. The viv looks to need more ventilation anyway, so the screen cutout is a good idea regardless of lighting.


Keep in mind that this viv already has two computer fans (which I will be screening over), one on each corner (one in the front left of the top, one in the back right), so there is considerable ventilation already - I'd worry that with too much screen, I wouldn't be able to keep it humid enough.

I could still try it though. I have an old exo-terra hood with 2 LED grow lights. I'd have to get my buddy to somehow get on top and cut it out and figure out how to do this without breaking the bank as well... I have spent a lot of money as it is on this and cannot afford to make changes that would cost more than say $200 tops (total)



SimonL said:


> What’s the white fixture in the wall in ‘vivarium 5.png’?
> 
> Have you considered covering the white walls and ceiling with something (tree root panels, or similar to the background) to make it look a bit more natural and allow the plants/moss to grow out a bit ?
> 
> ...


The fixture in that wall is from when this used to be a tree monitor enclosure - it was attached to the main enclosure so I could separate the two animals when they got too rowdy with each other. Unfortunately they ended up passing away a few years ago, and this enclosure has been sitting around ever since.

Considering how much effort it took just to get the background to where it is, I don't think I could manage to put anything else in there. It took MONTHS (partially because I needed my buddy around to help me get it done - I have zero skills when it comes to using spray foam or silicone) to get to where it is now, and paying for his gas alone to come over during this time (he's all the way in Missouri, I'm in Kansas) has made this a bank buster project. I couldn't afford the extra labor or the supplies to cover the rest.

The vivarium is attached to the old tree monitor main cage, but the reason that white thing is there is because it seals it off from the big cage. Eventually, when I move for wherever I get my PhD. I'll make the necessary modifications for this viv to stand fully on its own, but for now I have nowhere else to put it so it stays as is. As for room for plants to grow up and around - is that background not enough?

EDIT: I also still need suggestions for more plants to put in there.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Well, I've decided to go for the recommendations and cut out a hole in the top to put some screen, where I will be using an Exo terra hood with 2 LED grow-lights to supply lighting.

However I STILL need recommendations for more plants, and if I AM going to cover the remaining walls I need a way to do it without taking everything I have in there out.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

_Ficus thunbergii_ is easy and cute and will climb up the back. I think the right mini Begonia would look great and provide some more color, and I was just looking at some over at the Violet Barn - “Tempest” looks gorgeous. There’s a trailing African violet called “Pearl Joy” that apparently likes higher light and would look great planted high up and trailing down. I actually haven’t ever grown African violets but they are supposed to be pretty easy. _Columnea microphylla_ might also be a good choice. In fact, lots of plants on that site would work well. Can you tell I just really want to place a Violet Barn order?

I have a _Begonia glabra _that I got from @hydrophyte that clambered up the wall of my tank in an attractive way, and you could get both that and the Ficus from either me or them. Here’s a pic:









Side note: I think those lower leaves are chlorotic, I’m switching to a fert specifically for RO and going to fertilize more regularly.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Harpspiel said:


> _Ficus thunbergii_ is easy and cute and will climb up the back. I think the right mini Begonia would look great and provide some more color, and I was just looking at some over at the Violet Barn - “Tempest” looks gorgeous. In fact, lots of plants on that site would work well. There’s a trailing African violet called “Pearl Joy” that apparently likes higher light and would look great planted high up and trailing down. I actually haven’t ever grown African violets but they are supposed to be pretty easy. _Columnea microphylla_ might also be a good choice. Can you tell I just really want to place a Violet Barn order?
> 
> I have a _Begonia glabra _that I got from @hydrophyte that clambered up the wall of my tank in an attractive way, and you could get both that and the Ficus from either me or them. Here’s a pic:
> View attachment 296180
> ...


Gorgeous plants, but where are they native to? Right now I'm trying to keep all of the plants in my vivarium from the same continent (South America), just for the sake of keeping things natural (which is why any animal going in there will also be from South America).

You also mentioned fertilizer. Should I be using any? If so, what type?

Also, I am planning on adding some springtails/isopods to the soil... but I'm worried they will escape through the windows. What can I do to prevent that from happening?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

For sustained chameleon health i repectfully submit that the enclosure needs to be more opened up. 

Strategically placed perches in reachable distances to provide as many uvb, radiant, and temp gradient options as possible - with a couple (or more) going all the way across is important as a formula. 

Various diameters important also.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Kmc said:


> For sustained chameleon health i repectfully submit that the enclosure needs to be more opened up.
> 
> Strategically placed perches in reachable distances to provide as many uvb, radiant, and temp gradient options as possible - with a couple (or more) going all the way across is important as a formula.
> 
> Various diameters important also.


Chameleons were never the plan.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Sorry dude i thought i read that.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

dendrobateslover said:


> Gorgeous plants, but where are they native to? Right now I'm trying to keep all of the plants in my vivarium from the same continent (South America), just for the sake of keeping things natural (which is why any animal going in there will also be from South America).
> 
> You also mentioned fertilizer. Should I be using any? If so, what type?
> 
> Also, I am planning on adding some springtails/isopods to the soil... but I'm worried they will escape through the windows. What can I do to prevent that from happening?


I'm sure you can research where each of those plants is natively from. Rex Begonias and the African violets I mentioned are very highly domesticated, so I doubt you'll want those for a natural look. Very few people do biotype vivs, since it gets much harder to source plants that will work well, so if you want to do that I recommend doing a lot of research. Searching for "South America" on here brought up this, which looks like a good place to start.

You should probably be using fertilizer. I just bought MSU 13-3-15 specifically formulated for use with RO water, but I don't do frogs so a) I don't know what is safe for frogs and b) the ideal fertilizer will depend on what type of water you'll be using, whether tap or rain or RO. People seem to use it at a frequency of weekly or twice a month without animals in the tank, and monthly once frogs are in and starting to provide fertilizer.

As for keeping springtails in, I guess you could try adding very fine mesh or rubber gasket around the cracks, but honestly I don't know if many will escape. They want to be in humid soil, the rest of your house shouldn't seem that attractive to them.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

BTW, if you want to use RO, which your plants and frogs will probably appreciate, I highly recommend the Aquatic Life under-sink RO system I bought for only $50. It takes about 20 minutes to fill a gallon, so about once a week I have to keep setting timers and switching out gallon jugs, but with other systems coming in around $150-300, I think that trouble is worth it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Vendors such as Glass Box Tropicals mention the native provenance of many of the plants they carry, so their site is a good place to hunt.


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## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

How about some orchids? You could use air-rooted (Vandaceous species) to fill in a lot of the negative space (seems like you have a lot). They do very well in taller dart / gecko vivs as long as they have a chance to dry off overnight, so I mist in the mornings with a quick "refresh" in the early afternoon.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

I've considered orchids, I just wasn't sure which species. If they really need that much of drainage (but can have roots exposed), I could secure them on the ridge that runs around halfway up the cage (as normally there would be a space to put a divider to have two cube-sized cages), so that their roots get plenty of water when it mists, but can quickly dry off. (or at least be only damp rather than truly wet)

Also, I need something that will grow and drape down the back wall and corners, to help make it look more filled in. I definitely will consider orchids though. Really the more specific the suggestions (especially with links to product pages) the better, as I am very bad with indecisiveness! I've found a lot of shops are out of stock of most of their plants, which has been a problem. I'll take a look at the links provided, hopefully they can help!

I've also replaced the lighting as suggested with an exo-terra 24" hood with two LED grow lights from Josh's Frogs. It is protected from the cage by a screen. I also realized that the soil and leaf litter were getting dry quite quickly, so I removed one of the two computer fans I had (and put screen where it used to be, as well as putting screen between the current fan and the inside of the cage).

For water, right now I use distilled water because I have no room for an RO system, I have very little money, and do not have the space to set up an RO system. (My sink also doesn't have enough space to even fill a gallon reservoir sadly). I buy 5 gallons or so at a time, which is enough to last my frogs around 3 weeks (as they run on a MistKing that uses a 5 gallon bucket as a reservoir). I have it misting the enclosure several times a day for 30 seconds, though if anyone else has an exact schedule and time they would recommend I'd be happy to listen and make the adjustments. 

Also, if it counts for anything, I did mix some of the Bioactive Booster from Josh's Frogs into the soil. If I were to get something else, it would probably have to be liquid fertilizer. Specific product recommendations would be great if I really do need it.

And while it will be a long time before I get any frogs, suggestions for species that would make use of all the space provided would be great! Note: I may fill in that cavity in the back left corner (the one about halfway up) with some soil just because I would get worried of any animals becoming trapped in there, so that is a potential change. But I love darts, just not sure which ones would make use of the entire enclosure (I doubt tincs would climb quite so much, for example). Personally I'll admit I'm partial to _D. galactonotus, _but I don't know that they are particularly arboreal either.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

UPDATE: I've looked at Glass Box Tropicals and it seems like a lot of the stuff is out of stock. I'm also not sure what categories I should really be looking in at this point.

Should I be looking for more epiphytes (I think so, to at least some extent)? Should I be looking for vines? Just any clarification would be very useful. I'm thinking at least one vining plant and 1 or 2 more epiphytes, but could use some more experienced input.

EDIT: Just placed an order for a bunch of new plants from Glass Box Tropicals. Specifically I ordered 1 Monolena sp. Ecuador, 1 Peperomia angulata, 1. Philodendron sp. 'Peach', 1 Platystele jamboeensis, and 1 Restrepia cuprea.

Will those be enough to really fill things out (giving them time to grow in, that is)? Are there any other types of plants I should look into? I'd love to get some nice moss beds but there isn't nearly enough shade in the vivarium (and the bottom seems to stay a bit on the wet side, at least for now - I've got the fans circulating during daylight hours which should help).

My plan for any of the epiphytes that need especially good drainage is to actually mount their roots into the cork bark itself, as the surface of it is somewhat moist but the water actually drains out of it.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

The orchids should be tied onto the cork, ideally with a small pad of long fiber Sphagnum moss between their roots and the cork. Neither of those orchids will get very big or fill in much, but they will be pretty accent plants.

It looks like the Philodendron is the only vine you have. I don’t know that particular Philodendron, but the genus tends to grow quickly and can probably cover most of your background. You might want a secondary vine to provide some contrast, but probably something that grows about as quickly as the philodendron so it doesn’t get outcompeted. You could call Glass Box Tropicals and I bet they would have a good suggestion for a second vine.

I doubt your floor area is too bright for moss, what passes as “bright” under artificial light is often the same as “shade” outdoors. There are a couple moss mixes that you could buy and try spreading on the ground and the background - you’d have to religiously mist them multiple times a day to get them established, for a few weeks at least. NEHERP makes one and Glass Box Tropicals has one called Dusk Moss Mix, I haven’t personally used either but have heard good things about both.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Something like this Solanum sp. Ecuador might be a good, easy to grow contrasting vine. I got a similar one from Andy’s Orchids recently, and I think you can find it a few other places.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I got a bunch of plants from them, though one of them died unfortunately (I forget which one). I want to order from them again, but I wanted to get recommendations first and they haven't gotten back to me with anything specific.

Also, one problem I am having right now is the floor of my vivarium is too wet - ie there is actual standing water in it. I know one solution is to turn the mister on less frequently, but I want to know what schedule I should hold the mister to (ie which times of day it should mist, and for how long) to avoid this problem in the future while also ensuring it doesn't get too dry either. It sprays from two nozzles at the very top of the cage.

Also, any advice on what I could do to immediately get rid of the issue (ie so I don't have to wait weeks for it to evaporate, potentially having it kill some plants in the meantime) would be great. I will need to have my friend over to change the MistKing schedule since I totally forget how to do it, but I don't know when he'll be available next.

I've also been culturing temperate springtails using a kit from Josh's Frogs, the problem is I can't see them at all so I have no idea how they're doing, and two nights ago my friend put them in a bag outside (it gets to below freezing at night here), so I brought them back in as soon as he told me where they were but I don't know if they might have all been killed. If anyone knows more about Springtails and whether or not I should keep culturing them (or just order a new batch) I'd appreciate it. I've also been looking for isopods but the places I've looked are all out of stock.

Last thing - I've heard people say I might want to use fertilizer to help the plants get started, but I don't know what fertilizer to use. Any help would be very useful.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The viv needs a drainage layer, and provision for draining it. To adjust the misting to accommodate will lead to a viv too dry for mounted plants, and too dry for frogs.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

The vivarium already has a drainage layer - I made sure to set that up when I was building it. There is a 2" layer at the bottom separated from the main dirt with a substrate divider. How do I create a second drainage layer?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

dendrobateslover said:


> 2" layer


Of what material? Is it full of water? If so, then drain it.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

It's that material that used to be offered by Josh's Frogs to use as a drainage layer. I don't know if it is full of water, because I have no way to check without somehow emptying out all the substrate and lifting up the divider. If I need to drain it, how would I do so without disrupting the entire vivarium?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

dendrobateslover said:


> If I need to drain it, how would I do so without disrupting the entire vivarium?


You need to drain it regularly, before it fills. 

With a viv that large, a hole with a bulkhead in the bottom would be the best way. Otherwise, you can sink a tube (PVC pipe, vinyl tube) through the sub into the false bottom and suck the water out (siphon, or giant syringe, or peristaltic pump) with a tube that you insert into the first permanent pipe. Make sure the permanent pipe/tube is either much too small for frogs to get in or cap it.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Okay. If the hole is in the bottom, how do I make sure none of the drainage layer material comes out with it?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Screen (either DIY thing or get a bulkhead with a strainer), or a hole smaller than the material.

Also, reading back, I notice that you mixed sphagnum into ABG. That is going to make substrate moisture control very difficult (holds way too much water), so you'll really need to keep on top of draining, at the very least.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Also, reading back, I notice that you mixed sphagnum into ABG. That is going to make substrate moisture control very difficult (holds way too much water), so you'll really need to keep on top of draining, at the very least.


I only put sphagnum into the uppermost layer where the plants were, I did not mix it together with the ABG. I was just told that a thin layer of Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss should go right on top.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

dendrobateslover said:


> I was just told that a thin layer of Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss should go right on top.


No, I'd pull that. No benefit, rots plants/leaves/frogs' feet.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:


> No, I'd pull that. No benefit, rots plants/leaves/frogs' feet.


Okay, I will try to remove it.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

If it were me I'd go the route of adding the PVC pipe down to the drainage layer instead of trying to drill it. In either case, just do some searches on here of people's builds to find examples.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Well, I realized why things were getting so soaked - we had accidentally set the mister to be on for WAY too long as we had misunderstood the timer. We changed it to normal, and for now we made two screw holes in the bottom to let water drain out, and I have left those open so that excess water can continue to drain out for a while. In the future I'm thinking of drilling a hole, putting some screen on the inside of it so no material aside from water can come out, then putting a little plug. Part of me is wondering if I might want to leave the bottom doors to the vivarium open to help the soil dry out just a little bit while things settle back down.

I also made a second order of plants from Glass Box Tropicals, including some moss mixture that I can see doing very well in this enclosure (I plan on using it to cover some areas where the coco fiber didn't stick to the foam if possible, as well as just some areas of the background where I can't put epiphytes). Also ordered more Springtails from Josh's frogs, because I don't know if the Springtails in my colony survived being put outside overnight. Plus, I got two extra packs to put into the enclosure immediately. Unfortunately, everywhere seems to be out of the dwarf isopods so I can't get any of those. I also ordered Dyna-Gro from Amazon, as I remember using it in past vivaria a while ago.

I still need some ideas for what kind of dart frogs would do well in this kind of enclosure. While I won't be getting any frogs for a long time (not for another 6 months AT LEAST), knowing what options would work well in such a large and vertically oriented enclosure would help me make decisions. I'd obviously want frogs that would use all of the space provided, which writes off D. tinctorius, and D. auratus since they are mostly ground-dwellers. Part of me has wondered if it would be possible to have two species with completely opposite habits (ie one almost exclusively terrestrial, and another arboreal species) coexist without interacting, but I'm not really into the idea of mixing due to the risks.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

UPDATE: For some stupid reason the order from Glass Box Tropicals was returned to sender, despite me being here. I think USPS screwed up and never tried to knock on my door. I'm just hoping that they will let me have my money back for the order since I never got it, and I want to order again. Then again I did email them on Thursday and have yet to get a response so I'm not entirely sure.

I also ordered 2 Springtail cultures from Josh's frogs that seem to be doing quite well, but I don't know the best way to transfer the springtails into the enclosure. I've heard springtails float in water, but I wouldn't want to have to pour a whole bunch of water into the soil considering I had problems with it being wet recently. 

Any advice is appreciated.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

You might want to try putting the container holding the springtails in the vivarium, opening the top, and then blow them out with a straw or piece of hose. Depending on the type of container you won’t get them all out, but you’ll get a fair amount. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

SimonL said:


> You might want to try putting the container holding the springtails in the vivarium, opening the top, and then blow them out with a straw or piece of hose. Depending on the type of container you won’t get them all out, but you’ll get a fair amount.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tried this, but none of them would come out. They are in these little jars, if you look at Josh's Frogs' website on what their springtail cultures arrive in, that will show what kind of jar they arrive in. The annoying thing is I can see some moving, but I can't get them out and into the enclosure.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Pour some (or all) out into another cup, then blow them off the top. 

If you've got the 32 oz cxs, you may want to cut the cxs down to a manageble size anyway -- in those tall bottles, the springs at the bottom are going to asphyxiate. Anything taller than a 12 oz deli cup is bad, IME.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

I will try that tomorrow, thanks.

Could I just dump the charcoal into the substrate and mix it up to make sure all the springtails get into the enclosure?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

dendrobateslover said:


> Could I just dump the charcoal into the substrate and mix it up to make sure all the springtails get into the enclosure?


Yes, there should be no problem with that. I like to have a spring cx (or six) going just in case I set up a new viv (or three) but that's up to you.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, there should be no problem with that. I like to have a spring cx (or six) going just in case I set up a new viv (or three) but that's up to you.


Well, that's what I did since I really didn't have any other cups to use. I tried my best to mix the charcoal into the substrate, though a bunch of it is still more or less on the top-ish. I can't seem to spot any springtails anymore but given they now have a LOT more space to hide (under leaf litter, under the surface, etc.) I'm hoping they are still alive and are just hiding. For reference, I emptied two full jars into the enclosure, after having given the jars some springtail starter food and leaving them alone for about a week.

Since USPS messed up my order with Glass Box, they said they'll FedEx Overnight them to me once they get the package back. Hopefully that doesn't take too long, as i really want those plants and that moss mixture sooner rather than later. Right now the plants seem to not be dying or anything but I'm not seeing as much growth as I would like. Maybe I'm just impatient, but I guess only time will tell for sure.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Well, I had to make an entirely new order because USPS never got the shipment back to Glass Box Tropicals, meaning I had to basically pay double for the same plants :/ However, the dusk moss mix has done well, as have most of the plants (the Selaginella died, I think the soil is just too wet for it despite now having holes in the enclosure bottom to drain out any standing water). The problem now is there are still a lot of very empty areas that need filling and I need some advice on what to fill them with. I am still sticking with only plants from Central/South America, just to keep in mind if making plant suggestions. Thanks in advance!


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I created this recently, you can filter by continent or country:








Dendroboard Plant Database


Full Database: Dendroboard Vivarium Plant Database - Airtable New Entry Form: New Plant Entries Form - Airtable Gallery: Gallery - Airtable After seeing how I keep my plant records, @Encyclia approached me about creating an official Dendroboard plant database that could be a resource for anyone...




www.dendroboard.com





If your substrate is too wet for Selaginella, it's probably too wet for almost anything else. I'm not sure how you set up your drainage layer but you might want to make sure you're not getting any wicking, or change where you're aiming mist, or something.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Harpspiel said:


> I created this recently, you can filter by continent or country:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will definitely try that out.

As for the Selaginella, I don't know if that was the issue, or if it was something else, that was just my best guess. Right now what I've done (as it is the only thing I CAN do with the tools at my disposal) is use screws to create holes in the bottom (right now there are three), so that any standing water in the bottom can drain out that way. All of the other terrestrial plants are doing fine, and after noticing the yellow on the leaf of the anteriormost plant on the left I added the third hole in the bottom and pressed down on the substrate around it to ensure that if it was too wet, any excess would quickly be drained.

If I had a better way to prevent standing water that could be done with my current, VERY limited tools set, I'd certainly take that path, but this is the best I can do for the moment. All of the other terrestrial plants are doing well, though admittedly I wish the Philodendron "round leaf" would stick its roots in the soil (it has roots, but they haven't anchored fully yet), and those two Monocostus (it was bought as one but split in two when it arrived) in the middle left have not started growing anything new yet, though I only got them a month or so ago. None are showing any signs of dying though (and I checked the soil around them to make sure it wasn't soaking wet), so that's good. My Restrepia cuprea is even blooming already, which is nice. The Platystele is doing okay, it lost a leaf or two intially but it is staying green now. I'll have to cut the fishing line on it soon if not now. The Peperomia is growing the opposite direction that I thought it would, but I am hoping that little bit ends up finding the cork bark in the back so it starts climbing.

The Philodendron sp. "Peach" is also doing well, it has anchored into the cork bark nicely, and is surrounded by a lot of the dusk moss mix. I spray down the dusk moss mix daily.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

dendrobateslover said:


> The Platystele is doing okay, it lost a leaf or two intially but it is staying green now. I'll have to cut the fishing line on it soon if not now.


There's no need to ever cut the fishing line, it will just grow around it. Cutting it too soon could risk disturbing delicate roots that are just starting to develop and anchor it in place. If you do want to cut the line because it's bothering you visually, I would wait until the plant has at least doubled in size and you can feel that it is solidly anchored in place.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Harpspiel said:


> There's no need to ever cut the fishing line, it will just grow around it. Cutting it too soon could risk disturbing delicate roots that are just starting to develop and anchor it in place. If you do want to cut the line because it's bothering you visually, I would wait until the plant has at least doubled in size and you can feel that it is solidly anchored in place.


No, not bothering me at all, I just thought that it was supposed to be cut at some point. If not it's fine where it is.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Harpspiel said:


> I created this recently, you can filter by continent or country:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was looking through this database, and part of the issue is that I don't know what all the different types of growth habits necessarily mean. Like the trailing/pendant, I'm not sure what that means. I am just trying to figure out what growth habits would meet my needs.

If trailing means it would grow downward from an elevated spot (ie is epiphytic), I could use one of those for sure to place in the top right. However, I'm also looking for things that will be okay in net cups and grow upwards like vines, and unfortunately I didn't see any South American plants that seemed seemed meet those criteria (though I may have missed something). Obviously I also went by criteria of being beginner or at least intermediate and being okay with humidity/moisture.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Trailing and epiphytic are two very different things, trailing vs climbing vs upright are growth habits. Terrestrial vs epiphytic indicates whether it grows in soil or without soil (usually on tree trunks). Lots of epiphytes have an upright growth habit.






Difference Between Trailing vs. Climbing Plants


Difference Between Trailing vs. Climbing Plants. Vines with tendrils, suction discs or a twining habit generally require supports so they can climb. Other vines lacking the means of attachment can be grown as either trailing or climbing plants. "Climbing" roses will ascend a trellis only if tied...




homeguides.sfgate.com













Epiphyte - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I changed "vine" to "climbing" in the DB for clarity.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Great, thanks for clarification! What I meant is more about what direction it would grow if placed in a vivarium (ie would I be able to place the plant in an elevated spot and have it grow downwards, or would it just grow up). Recently I purchased a 3 pack of Tillansia ionantha and one Spathiphyllum "allison", and the dusk moss mix has grown in nicely.

However, the enclosure still feels a bit sparse. I am trying to figure out a good climbing plant I could put in there that would do the trick. Any suggestions for South American climbing plants would be great (or any plants that you think would help to fill out the viv)






























I have been told by someone at Josh's Frogs that the ground level looks adequate for dart frogs, and that because they wouldn't use all the vertical space, I could also put small tree frogs like clown or hourglass since they would never interact. Problem is I'm terrible at dealing with crickets. Would mealworms be okay as an alternative?

Alternatively, are there any dart species that WOULD use the entire vertical space?

Thanks!


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

I don't know much about tree frogs, but I certainly wouldn't keep them in the same enclosure as darts. Also, any dart you put in this will absolutely use the upper regions of this tank, so I'm surprised/saddened Josh's would tell you otherwise. They'll climb up straight glass, so this setup would be cake for them to get to the top. Would they spend a tremendous amount of time in the upper regions? Depends on the type of dart.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

bssknox said:


> I don't know much about tree frogs, but I certainly wouldn't keep them in the same enclosure as darts. Also, any dart you put in this will absolutely use the upper regions of this tank, so I'm surprised/saddened Josh's would tell you otherwise. They'll climb up straight glass, so this setup would be cake for them to get to the top. Would they spend a tremendous amount of time in the upper regions? Depends on the type of dart.


Yeah I was hesitant to mix anyways because of the feeding situation. I'd want to make sure any darts I got would make full use of the vivarium, so any recommendations for specific taxa would be lovely. I do worry that the background is too bare for them so any ideas for plants from South America that would help to really fill that out would be great!


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

Leucomelas would do well and likely find them using all levels regularly. If it were me, I'd load the upper regions with more bromeliads. Also, Aeschynanthus gracilis - Lipstick Vine is an easy plant to keep alive and would climb your background when planted in the substrate.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

bssknox said:


> Leucomelas would do well and likely find them using all levels regularly. If it were me, I'd load the upper regions with more bromeliads. Also, Aeschynanthus gracilis - Lipstick Vine is an easy plant to keep alive and would climb your background when planted in the substrate.


I considered more bromeliads, but I would need some idea of where to place them specifically, to avoid issues with the other plants. The one I already have in there has multiplied into three already, and a fourth is starting to grow. I would like one that grows out and eventually flowers, of course. Any specific recommendations on that would be great.

Also, having looked up _Aeschynanthus gracilis_, it is unfortunately from Asia and not South America :/ Like I said, I am sticking specifically to South American (some Central American) plants to have a bit more authenticity to the natural habitat of Dendrobatidae.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

All bromeliads will flower at some point. I would stair step them up at different levels on your cork bark.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

dendrobateslover said:


> Great, thanks for clarification! What I meant is more about what direction it would grow if placed in a vivarium (ie would I be able to place the plant in an elevated spot and have it grow downwards, or would it just grow up).


That's why there's a specification of trailing, pendant and climbing. Most vining plants will trail if there is nothing to climb on, but will climb given a background to attach to. A few plants will only trail, and some plants are just pendant (i.e. they just hang down without the vining habit). Look for plants listed as trailing/pendant only, or else they will climb given the opportunity.

edit: a good example of a plant that seems to mostly trail downwards is _Columnea microphylla_


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

bssknox said:


> All bromeliads will flower at some point.


Well, then hopefully the one(s) I have do - I've had them for quite a while and never even seen a hint of flowering.. How many bromeliads do you think I could safely plant in there (wondering how many to buy)?

Also could use something to put in that bottom left corner net cup (first photo of the ones in my recent post). It is beneath the cork bark with the orchid and moss (in the fourth pic) so it gets little direct sunlight or water.

Lastly, still need to find a good South American climbing plant, since the thing is still a bit bare.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

dendrobateslover said:


> Well, then hopefully the one(s) I have do - I've had them for quite a while and never even seen a hint of flowering.. How many bromeliads do you think I could safely plant in there (wondering how many to buy)?
> 
> Also could use something to put in that bottom left corner net cup (first photo of the ones in my recent post). It is beneath the cork bark with the orchid and moss (in the fourth pic) so it gets little direct sunlight or water.
> 
> Lastly, still need to find a good South American climbing plant, since the thing is still a bit bare.


You could fit a good amount looks like. Easily another 3-4.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

bssknox said:


> You could fit a good amount looks like. Easily another 3-4.


Well, luckily 4 is exactly how many I ordered. I still need to figure out what to do with that empty net cup in the bottom left, underneath the cork bark with the moss and orchid, so any suggestions for South American plants that would work there would be great. It's obviously well-shaded so nothing that needs bright light, and it is relatively dry so nothing that needs to be kept constantly moist/wet (I can mist by hand but not daily, as I go on research trips for my career as a paleontologist).


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## Eruantien (Dec 23, 2014)

Well, the lower reaches of the enclosure are going to be more moist/humid inherently/naturally... regardless of how much ventilation you have.. also, your monitor enclosure seems close to a NERD enclosure for monitors.. is this for NERD? Would be cool if so.

Anyway.. there is a huge disparity between building an enclosure for one genus and another. It’s really important to have an idea of what you want to keep or work with before you start building the enclosure. I don’t think that has even been discussed in this thread yet.. if it has I missed it over my brief skimming.


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## Eruantien (Dec 23, 2014)

It’s also important to realize that the live plants are a part of our hobby. They are not necessarily required for the frogs. As in, the frogs don’t require live plants to survive nor do they actually require lights.. the lighting is for the plants to continue growth and, secondly for OUR viewing pleasure. Like keeping fish in example.

To us, it is important to use live plants because we want to give these beautiful animals an equally gorgeous home. To do that we use live and sometimes extremely exotic plants.

The more important thing is that these animals need hiding places because they are prey items.. even though they are poisonous.. they are prey items. If they are out in the open with no where to hide, they are gonna get stressed... regardless of whether or not there is a predator present.


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## Eruantien (Dec 23, 2014)

That said, your lower net cup is gonna depend on your lights, in terms of what your lights are capable of growing at mid/lower levels..

Also.. like I said previously.. what genus/species of frog are you trying to keep?

I might have missed it but, what are your light specs’s and what do you want for a tank? Like what kind of growth are you looking for and expecting from certain levels of your enclosure?

My brutal advice, regardless of who you are is to do some reading first. Figure out what genus/species you fancy... know their requirements like the back of your hand (do some research/reading) then begin to start creating an enclosure. If you have questions at that point.. then ask.. but, like I said, it doesn’t even seem like you have a species let alone genus in mind.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

I've always planned to keep Dendrobatidae specifically, though I am open to whatever species might do best in the type of setup I have. The reason I built this vivarium is because I had the enclosure around and wanted to make a large vivarium, that would be suitable for amphibians. I have kept dart frogs before, including tinctorius, aureus, and leucomelas, though these were at my father's office and had a different type of setup that was far more terrestrial, thus I don't think tinctorius would be the best candidate since they are generally terrestrial. 

The lights I have are the LED gro bulbs from Josh's Frogs. I have one in each of the two fixtures on the hood. I am on my phone right now since my male Nile monitor wanted to go outside, so I can't look at the exact specs. So far the plants are all going quite well, though before I get any animals in there I need to wait for the Tillandsia and Neoregalia to fully anchor themselves so they don't fall down when/if something hops on them. If anyone knows roughly how long that usually takes, let me know.

Any frog I get I will make sure to research well in advance of actually getting any, I simply wanted to make sure to choose a species that will do well in this type of vivarium rather than choosing a species that won't. Given recommendations already in this thread I will probably go with D. leucomelas.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks, I am glad people like it. It's not perfect by any means, but I've done my best. I still need to wait for the new Neoregalia and Tillandsia to be fully anchored before I get any frogs, so hopefully that doesn't take too long (I have no idea how long that usually takes). Also still need to figure out what to do with that empty net cup in the background as pictured above. I need a South American plant that would do well with almost no direct light, and little direct watering (the misters don't hit that spot). Any suggestions are welcome.

I also still need to find some dwarf isopods to put in the substrate - I've got tons of springtails, but everywhere I check is sold out of the tiny isopods.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

dendrobateslover said:


> I also still need to find some dwarf isopods to put in the substrate - I've got tons of springtails, but everywhere I check is sold out of the tiny isopods.


Check the Marketplace here. Past sellers can be contacted (some list a website in the ad, hint, hint), and you'll find some.

Also, you can place a wanted ad (check the stickied instructions on how to do this) and your PM box will blow up with offers, I'll bet.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Well, I found someone in my area who sells isopods so I may be able to get some soon.

I am just waiting on that, and then I can get some frogs. I will want to wait until the isopods get established, I imagine. How long should I wait before getting frogs? 2 weeks? A month? Just curious what folks' recommendations are.

EDIT: The guy is apparently being a bit hard to deal with according to my friend who is trying to connect with him to pick up the isopods on my behalf (it's an hour away), so I will just post on the Marketplace. Still, the question of how long to wait is relevant.

EDIT 2: Managed to find someone on here to buy isopods from! Bought 40 dwarf purples and 20 dwarf whites. Still need to know how long I should wait to add frogs in, but as far as I can determine, the isopods getting established is the last thing I really need before I get my frogs.


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## dendrobateslover (Aug 18, 2010)

Managed to get a trio of leucomelas (arrived yesterday morning)! 2 males, 1 female. So far I have only seen 2 of them since I put them in there, but I am guessing the second male is just shy. If he doesn't show himself within a few more days I'll go in there and look more thoroughly as there are a few areas I realized he could get into where I would never see him.

Given the vast size of the vivarium relative to the frogs, I am considering trying to find another 1.1 pair, as so far the two that are active are not using very much of the space.

On the plus side, the two frogs that have been out have eaten within the first few hours of receiving them, and even come up up the glass to stare me down in the afternoons, as if they already know I am their source of snacks. I also have already heard the male calling twice, so they seem to be pretty content. I'd really like to set up a small speaker in there to play calls on a loop every couple of hours during the day, but I can't find a good-quality looping


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