# multispecies question



## ISTHOMS (Jul 29, 2011)

i know multispecies tanks are generally frowned upon but i was wondering how well a pair of both auratus and leucomelas would do in a 29 horizontal. if not i could do a 40 breeder but then i would have to get a new tank. i am not intending to breed and any eggs or froglets that are obviously hybrids would be humanely uthanized by means of a co2 generator. they would be watched and observed closely and any obviously aggressive frogs would be removed. its not a final decission just a question. please do not go hating on me. i am new to this.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Here you go:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


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## ISTHOMS (Jul 29, 2011)

i have seen and read that thread about three times already. im asking the professional breeders what their opinion is.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

CAN you do it? Well, I'm assuming you have hands.

SHOULD you do it? Nope. 




Basically what you just told us is that it's okay to let leucs and auratus breed as long as you methodically exterminate 100% of the offspring. Seems a bit cruel when you could just keep them separately to begin with, no? Wouldn't it be easier to make a 2nd tank, and make back your money on the 2nd setup by selling some legitimate auratus or leuc froglets?


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

ISTHOMS said:


> i have seen and read that thread about three times already. im asking the professional breeders what their opinion is.


Im quite sure professional breeders dont mix anything, hence the word "professional". Plus I can only assume most productive breeding happens in tanks containing only 1 species (not including microfauna lol)


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

A lot of people will tell you, "No, don't do it." I am one of them. For your first frogs especially, it will not be as likely that you'll have a good first experience. Who wants to systematically kill baby frogs? I mean, really? that's the plan and sounds good on paper, but when push comes to shove and the cute little guys and gals are hopping around and you're so proud of them, then you're just gonna shove them into a gas chamber? then repeat every time you find a cute little guy hopping about after he's survived the odds to even get that far in life? That seems pretty cold to me, but power to you if you think that will be a good experience for you.

On the flip side, you could do separate enclosures, enjoy the reward of having your frogs breed for you and not have to kill them all. Personally, I'd pick option #2 any day of the week.

As a side note, you're asking for the advise of professional breeders over hobbyists. I'm not sure what you think they do with their frogs, but all the "professional" breeders i know understand how important it is to keep the bloodlines and species separate. Any breeder producing mixed frogs would never get to the point of being professional. Just won't happen here, so no I don't believe that any professional breeder is going to log on and give you the advice that "hell yeah, that's sounds awesome". 

You are of course more than welcome to hold your breath, I just can't recommend it.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

tclipse said:


> CAN you do it? Well, I'm assuming you have hands.
> 
> SHOULD you do it? Nope.
> 
> ...


I cull all my eggs simply for the fact I have no interest in breeding, and really see nothing cruel about it


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I cull all my eggs simply for the fact I have no interest in breeding, and really see nothing cruel about it


He specifically mentioned froglets as well, which is a different story IMO.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ISTHOMS said:


> froglets that are obviously hybrids would be humanely uthanized by means of a co2 generator.


I vote no mixing.
I have to ask if the hybrids that are NOT obviously hybrids will be released into the hobby to mess up the bloodlines?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ISTHOMS said:


> i have seen and read that thread about three times already. im asking the professional breeders what their opinion is.


 
Hmm. I didn't realize that I wasn't a "professional" when I wrote that.... particularly since I was being paid to not only care for frogs but to breed them.... 

Also for what it is worth, I'm guessing that you aren't aware that CO2 is not considered a humane method of euthanasia for amphibians. You might want to read over Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia... 

Ed


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## Frogilla (Aug 10, 2011)

I am confused after reading this thread of responses as to whether it is or isn't okay to mix certain types of dart frogs in a vivarium. I would really appreciate it if somebody straightened this matter out for me.

Thanks a lot

Frogilla


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Honestly, it's ultimately a personal decision as to what you're going to do with your frogs. However, I've seen an overwhelming amount of advice/evidence as to why you should not do it. I have seen next to none about why you should. 

I'd say search it, but all you're going to find are a bunch of threads full of arguing. However, it'd still be a good idea to read through that thread posted in the 2nd response as well as do a search and skim for useful information from informative posts (there's just a lot of back and forth that goes on that you'll need to skim over to get the informative posts).

The easy and simple answer: Don't do it, especially as a beginner. It takes a lot of fastidious planning, meaningful PDF experience, and diligent observation to make it work well.


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## Frogilla (Aug 10, 2011)

Thanks. I was reading the thread started by "Ed" and he seemed like he knew what he was talking about, but I read all of the responses on why not to do it and wasn't sure who to listen to. But I guess I will save the mixing for the future.


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## Molch (Jul 15, 2011)

another reason to keep only one species: if you're gonna have eggs/froglets, wouldn't it be sooo much more enjoyable to actually _raise_ them than to feel you have to gas them because they might be hybrids? 

I kinda think gassing little baby frogs is a bit of a somber first act for a beginning dart frogger...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frogilla said:


> Thanks. I was reading the thread started by "Ed" and he seemed like he knew what he was talking about, but I read all of the responses on why not to do it and wasn't sure who to listen to. But I guess I will save the mixing for the future.


If one reads the thread closely, I made it clear that the thread was not about housing multiple species of dendrobatids together but in reference to other species. As I've noted in that thread and elsewhere, it is much more difficult when working with erritorial species with similar behaviors and/or shape since even disparate appearences can trigger agonostic behaviors. 

Ed


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

ISTHOMS said:


> i am not intending to breed and any eggs or froglets that are obviously hybrids would be humanely uthanized by means of a co2 generator


To set up a tank and and add frogs that you know can cross breed is the ultimate in being irresponsible. Why wouldn't you add frogs that can't breed together, like Imis and Tincs. Therefore a "Gas chamber" wouldn't be needed, which I find offensive. That alone, tells me you are not ready for a mixed tank. Your new to the hobby, so just set up a single species tank and save yourself all the grief. The frogs too...

BTW I never posted in these threads. This one is just "Out there"


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Recipe for disaster in either size tank. 

Guess it's been a good 3 or 4 weeks since the last one huh....


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## jibfest (Dec 1, 2010)

ISTHOMS said:


> i know multispecies tanks are generally frowned upon but i was wondering how well a pair of both auratus and leucomelas would do in a 29 horizontal. if not i could do a 40 breeder but then i would have to get a new tank. i am not intending to breed and any eggs or froglets that are obviously hybrids would be humanely uthanized by means of a co2 generator. they would be watched and observed closely and any obviously aggressive frogs would be removed. its not a final decission just a question. please do not go hating on me. i am new to this.


 Also if your if your willing to "watched and observed closely and any obviously aggressive frogs would be removed" with only one tank set up where would they be removed to? You'll be scrambling to set up more suitable housing. As far as "eggs or froglets that are obviously hybrids would be humanely uthanized by means of a co2 generator." I think making statements like those is pretty good evidence that you should save yourself alot of grief and rethink this whole thing. As someone that had to put their first froglet down because of sls, I can honestly say anyone who actually care for the animals they keep would never put themselves in that position.


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## Newtnerd (May 4, 2011)

is it wrong that i get a little excited when i see threads like this?


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## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

frogfreak said:


> To set up a tank and and add frogs that you know can cross breed is the ultimate in being irresponsible. Why wouldn't you add frogs that can't breed together, like Imis and Tincs. Therefore a "Gas chamber" wouldn't be needed, which I find offensive. That alone, tells me you are not ready for a mixed tank. Your new to the hobby, so just set up a single species tank and save yourself all the grief. The frogs too...
> 
> BTW I never posted in these threads. This one is just "Out there"


what if the frogs you are keeping are all the same sex? this would solve the problem of hybrids, but not so much of the cross contamination.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Newtnerd said:


> is it wrong that i get a little excited when i see threads like this?


Just wait a few weeks - it gets old FAST. 

For some reason, even though they have "read that thread about mixing 3 times", a lot new users still seem to think they will be the exception and be the one to pull off a magnificent mixed display with their first tank.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Even if they are same sex frogs there doesn't seem to be much of a point to go through all the trouble to try and create a natural environment if you're just going to mix frogs that aren't naturally found together. Seems like a wasted effort. Plus, mixing frogs seems to go hand in hand with people who take a lazy approach to the hobby and that never turns out good. No offense intended.


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## Newtnerd (May 4, 2011)

afterdark said:


> Just wait a few weeks - it gets old FAST.
> 
> For some reason, even though they have "read that thread about mixing 3 times", a lot new users still seem to think they will be the exception and be the one to pull off a magnificent mixed display with their first tank.


haha i just love subscribing to see what kind of responses they generate.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

MrFusion said:


> Even if they are same sex frogs there doesn't seem to be much of a point to go through all the trouble to try and create a natural environment if you're just going to mix frogs that aren't naturally found together. Seems like a wasted effort. Plus, mixing frogs seems to go hand in hand with people who take a lazy approach to the hobby and that never turns out good. No offense intended.



do you usually go through the trouble of creating a biotope?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

afterdark said:


> Just wait a few weeks - it gets old FAST.
> 
> For some reason, even though they have "read that thread about mixing 3 times", a lot new users still seem to think they will be the exception and be the one to pull off a magnificent mixed display with their first tank.


I think this one has gotten old already given that the OP hasn't said a word since he/she/them/they/it posted the inflammatory comment about asking "professional" breeders.. 

Ed


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## Adven2er (Aug 17, 2008)

He could be getting all the "good" info from PM's with Jelly...


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)




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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

I tend to ignore any thread with the word mixing in it, but I looked at this one.
*For the OP,*
What is so hard about spending 60$ and a bit more time to set up another tank to make sure your frogs are healthy so you would never even have to _think_ about mixing, let alone _actually doing it_. Mixing, IMO, is a bad idea, but don't take any ones worsd for it because no one's a "pro" from your POV.


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