# What do you expect when you order leaf litter?



## obsoccerplaya (Jun 16, 2013)

So I don't know if I am being picky or unreasonable, or just a spoiled brat. But what does one come to expect when they order leave litter from somewhere? I currently just received some leaf litter I had ordered and while the bags contained a good amount of leaves, there were lots of additional items as well. I had never enocuntered a problem like this before and I wondered if I just had gotten lucky with other orders.

In my bags I found lots of sticks, mushrooms, butterfly wings, bird feather fluff, foil(maybe a gum wrapper), and acorns. lol it seems like that all shouldnt be included but I don't want to make a big deal out of nothing if I am over-reacting. Am I being crazy? Feedback definitely appreciated on other members feedback.


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

I don't think it's unreasonable at all. An occasional stick or acorn I would be fine with but trash (tin foil) and feathers not so much.

If it was only one "bonus" item in a bag I probably wouldn't be too bothered but if it's several...well I'd ask for a new bag.

Edit: Come to think of it, I probably wouldn't want a new bag. Even though you could clean it...feathers grosses me out.


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## Jeremy M (Oct 19, 2012)

well, I would say keep in mind that this is being gathered as leaf litter, not leaves plucked straight off the tree and then dried out. I would expect small natural debris to be present such as sticks, rocks and maybe acorns and wouldn't mind them at all.
The mushrooms make it seem like the guy was just being careless and grabbing handfuls without paying attention, or perhaps he just dug deep and pulled up some of the moist layer of decomposing litter below the top, drier ones.
Now, to have all those things included as well as a bit of foil and the bird dander... that would just piss me off. It would seem to me that the collection spot for these leaves would most likely have come off of some city sidewalk somewhere rather than a reliable source. Now, I would never consider using leaves from somewhere where there would be foil present- that's just straight unsanitary. Not because the foil itself is unclean, but because the area that it came from would likely be open to pollution or littering. I've only noticed concentrated amounts of bird dander like you describe in a city or more developed environment where there are plenty of people-associated 'pest' birds around (pigeons, starlings, seagulls) or in the woods, usually right near the kill site or plucking site of a bird of prey, so i wouldn't use leaves from either source. I know that I'm spoiled as I live in an area where I can just bike or jog not all that far and be in generously preserved natural areas where I don't have to worry about man-made pollutants like these. But what you've described receiving I wouldn't even consider using in my own enclosures, let alone selling it to someone else for use in theirs. I would have hoped that those who do sell leaf litter have natural area that they can get it from similar to where I do, not some park somewhere.
then again, I could be completely wrong about all of this and it could be a perfectly fine bag of leaf litter to use  after all, I've never had the need to buy leaf litter so don't know what is actually being sold, only what I would expect to get.


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## Frogman8 (Sep 28, 2010)

I would be a little upset at what got sent to me as well. If the person was to boil or bake them they should of caught the debris and discarded it. Not for nothing I would sift through my product before I were to sell it . Just my opinion


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

What you have sounds reasonable.

What would be unreasonable? Cigarette butts.

Don't laugh - it's happened.

s


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It sounds reasonable to me too. It's generally not hand sorted. The important part is that it is collected in a pesticide free zone. I would expect hand sorting to at least triple the price.
Why would you complain about acorns? I can't imagine a better product to help create hiding spots and voids. Tell you what, I'll send you two bags of leaf litter for every bag of acorns you send me. I love them. In fact I think...http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sponsor-classifieds/78226-leaf-litter-amendment.html
A small percentage of sticks and twigs is not only very natural, it also helps prevent compaction and create voids.
Except for the gum wrapper, which it sounds like you aren't even sure was in there, these are all natural things found in leaf litter anywhere.
I want 95% usable product from my leaf litter. I don't want pieces of shingle or road tar in it. (Yes, it's happened). Now for that 95% number it is important to keep in mind that I consider Acorns, and a small percentage of twigs, to be acceptable as usable product.


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

I just have to say that over the last year I have gotten a lot more detritus in my leaf litter & ABG substrate mix (from multiple suppliers ) than I have in the past. so I find this a good thread. I Don't mind an occasional acorn or stick but large quantity's of grass and unknown detritus in bags of (not cheap viv components ) give me pause as to the greed aspect of the retailers of these products, as they have to see what contents they are selling. If they need to raise the price per bag a bit then so be it, but passing on sub par substrate or litter seems a bit sad to me given the narrow portion of the pet trade we as frog keepers occupy


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## Urban Jungle (Oct 10, 2013)

Sounding like it isn't the most reliable source, definitely sterilize it in a pressure cooker or microwave first. Growing up in Michigan I used to crack open acorns and often find white worms in them.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Scott said:


> What you have sounds reasonable.
> 
> What would be unreasonable? Cigarette butts.
> 
> ...


Egad, I hope it wasn't from me 

When I did leaf litter, I did pick it up by hand and go through it by hand when bagging it. I tried to pull out any pine straw, grass, deer poop, spiders and most sticks. I didn't worry too much about acorns and small twigs. As the season passes, it becomes more difficult to find fresh, clean leaf litter, though.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> It sounds reasonable to me too. It's generally not hand sorted. The important part is that it is collected in a pesticide free zone. I would expect hand sorting to at least triple the price.
> Why would you complain about acorns? I can't imagine a better product to help create hiding spots and voids. Tell you what, I'll send you two bags of leaf litter for every bag of acorns you send me. I love them. In fact I think...http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sponsor-classifieds/78226-leaf-litter-amendment.html
> A small percentage of sticks and twigs is not only very natural, it also helps prevent compaction and create voids.
> Except for the gum wrapper, which it sounds like you aren't even sure was in there, these are all natural things found in leaf litter anywhere.
> I want 95% usable product from my leaf litter. I don't want pieces of shingle or road tar in it. (Yes, it's happened). Now for that 95% number it is important to keep in mind that I consider Acorns, and a small percentage of twigs, to be acceptable as usable product.


Really?? I pretty much quit offering live oak leaves because they were too hard to tell apart from water oak (I did have a customer complain once that is wasn't 100% live oak.) I individually sort every leaf from large species (magnolia) and hand sift through all the smaller leaves. I pull any pine straw, unnatural debris, etc. that I find. I usually leave acorn caps and small sticks in and just advertise it as having some of that. If someone really doesn't want it, I'll offer nearly clean leaves.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It wasn't dear. 

s


frogface said:


> Egad, I hope it wasn't from me


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

That is unacceptable to me.I wouldn't even use it.I agree it seems like it was taken out of the dump.I personally gather and hand pick all the leaf litter I sell.I would be embarrassed and appalled if I had someone tell me they found all that garbage in my leaf litter.I can understand maybe some twigs or a couple of leaves that were of something else other than it was supposed to be,but not garbage.I can't stand paying for leaves,but it's just something we need,but i feel you should get what you pay for.I just pulled some pre bagged leaves I was selling at frogday and shot some quick pics,but this is what leaf litter should look like,not loaded with trash.

pic 1 regular magnolia leaves
pic2 southern magnolia leaves
3&4 are both


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

oddlot said:


> That is unacceptable to me.I wouldn't even use it.I agree it seems like it was taken out of the dump.I personally gather and hand pick all the leaf litter I sell.I would be embarrassed and appalled if I had someone tell me they found all that garbage in my leaf litter.I can understand maybe some twigs or a couple of leaves that were of something else other than it was supposed to be,but not garbage.I can't stand paying for leaves,but it's just something we need,but i feel you should get what you pay for.I just pulled some pre bagged leaves I was selling at frogday and shot some quick pics,but this is what leaf litter should look like,not loaded with trash.
> 
> pic 1 regular magnolia leaves
> pic2 southern magnolia leaves
> 3&4 are both


Well Lou, still looking for work? I may be looking to buy some leaves from you haha. But yes, that is some grade A product from the pictures Lou! and to ad to the OP, I would be pretty pissed off to find trash in my bags as well. However I have come across foil in a few bags as well.. And the twigs and acorn's like Doug stated, are just as welcomed in our vivs. They do ad a natural aspect. and more voids! and they get boiled and baked just like the rest!


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I wouldn't accept leaf litter like that. I've ordered leaf litter from a couple different vendors here in Michigan and I haven't ever found anything but leaves in the bag. Paying for leaf litter sucks but the seller has no upfront cost but time so if you're paying 3-7 dollars per bag it should definitely be sorted. It sounds like this person was literally grabbing handfuls off of the ground and putting it directly into bags.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I think there are different grades of any natural product and you would be well advised to ask what you get. Some people who sell Indian almond leaves tell you, you are getting an exact number of leaves that are of large size and whole. I bet it cost more. Others who do not specify, well anything could come of it. 

IMO if there was amount of trash in there it would be a little concerning because it would suggest it comes from a populated area that might have been treated. 

That said you should take a picture so nothing is left to the imagination. Maybe you are just really OCD and it wasn't that bad, maybe it was horrible. A picture would be the best way for us to judge.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I wouldn't accept leaf litter with bird dander or trash in it. I guess the random overlooked piece of bird dander would just be random, but if their are a lot of feathers, hell no.

Sticks, acorn caps, and other natural debris is ok, so long at the percentage is low(less than 5%). All these are actually a welcome addendum and would be found in any natural setting where frogs would be anyway and serve to keep the leaf litter loose and open.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

We have a lot of people saying they wouldn't accept all that trash. What are you considering "trash"?
A reminder that the only true "trash", would be the possible gum wrapper. He is not even sure if there was a gum wrapper or not. If people are picturing lots of man made garbage, it really doesn't sound like the case.
The details here are sorely lacking. How many bags are we talking about and how much non-targeted material was included? You've got no pictures to judge anything by. I mean, if you ordered a single gallon bag and got a quart of included twigs, acorns, and feathers, I would not be happy. On the other hand, if you ordered 10 gallon bags of leaf litter, and it included 3 feathers and a handful or 2 of acorns and twigs, then there's nothing wrong with that.
I think with no pictures and such a vague description, we may all be picturing something different.

I think the leaf type makes a difference. Big leaves like Sea Grape and Magnolia, are easy to separate and yes, I would expect a fully cleaned bag.
Live Oak is my favorite leaf litter by far. It is a smaller leaf and generally I see more non-targeted material in them. To me, it is much more important that I get the leaf I'm looking for. Wherever my guy is collecting from, he gets me bags with virtually no contaminant leaves in them. 
Price you pay should make a difference. I saw $7 dropped. If I were paying $7 for a gallon of leaf litter I would expect it fully cleaned. I'm talking 100% polished. When I buy leaf litter, I'm dropping $100 or more on product. I want a price point much closer or below $3 a gallon. To get that price, picking a few twigs out is not a problem.
Does that mean the $7 bag is a ripoff? No, not at all, but it wouldn't fill my requirements. That price would have put me at about $1000 dropped on leaf litter this last year. We all have different likes and needs.
I love to get a deal on the bottom of the batch. I'm going to shred a lot of them anyway, in my huge leaf shredder, to be used in my bug cultures. I love to grab a bargain on the broken up crappy leaves that others would be disappointed with. Half the price and twice the material. The smaller, broken up pieces allow twice as much product to fit in the bag.


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## punctata (Jan 31, 2011)

I order mine from black jungle. Nothing but leaves baby lol


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

By Trash I meant the actual price of trash, the gum wrapper. Would be nice if the OP clarified.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

obsoccerplaya said:


> In my bags I found lots of sticks, mushrooms, butterfly wings, bird feather fluff, foil(maybe a gum wrapper), and acorns.





Pumilo said:


> We have a lot of people saying they wouldn't accept all that trash. What are you considering "trash"?
> A reminder that the only true "trash", would be the possible gum wrapper. He is not even sure if there was a gum wrapper or not. If people are picturing lots of man made garbage, it really doesn't sound like the case.
> The details here are sorely lacking. How many bags are we talking about and how much non-targeted material was included? You've got no pictures to judge anything by. I mean, if you ordered a single gallon bag and got a quart of included twigs, acorns, and feathers, I would not be happy. On the other hand, if you ordered 10 gallon bags of leaf litter, and it included 3 feathers and a handful or 2 of acorns and twigs, then there's nothing wrong with that.
> I think with no pictures and such a vague description, we may all be picturing something different.
> ...



I don't know what kind of leaves the OP was talking about as he hasn't given us the type yet,however he states "lots of sticks, mushrooms, butterfly wings, bird feather fluff, foil and acorns".I'm sorry but if he's not exaggerating(a pic would be nice),then I don't see how Lots of any of those things are acceptable if your paying for leaves.A few twigs or acorns,maybe,but not lots of them,and certainly not lots of bird fluff,mushrooms,or foil.That's like saying it's ok if I bought springs and isos that had lots of mites in them when they arrived.The frogs will eat them,so is that ok too,no,not even if it's cheaper. I want what I pay for,not filler or trash,but That's my opinion.

Crushed leaves, if that's the grade leaves you want is fine and another story all together.


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## Tazman (May 26, 2013)

Depends on the price. If you got it cheap don't expect a great deal of cleaning done to the product.


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## obsoccerplaya (Jun 16, 2013)

Wow I didn't really expect so many differing opinions so I will do my best to clarify. I received 3 bags of Live oak leaves, 1 gallon per bag. From the first few responses I figured I was just being too picky as far as all the natural stuff included so I just sifted through 2 of the bags, boiled, baked, and added to the vivs. I still have about half of a bag I can take a picture of if need be. Between the 3 bags I would estimate 3-4 handfuls of sticks, a handful of acorns and caps, clump of bird fluff about the size of a quarter, and as far as the trash is concerned, it looked like foil but was only shiny and silver on the one side so I made the assumption it was pieces of gum wrapper(it was never a question of whether or not it was there), and the various other natural items I had already described.

So from what I could gather from all the responses, the general consensus is I was just being too picky, which is the reason I asked in the first place so that is fine with me. I appreciate everyones feedback so now I wont immediately start thinking wtf when I am going through a bag so much lol.

edit: After further reading through the posts a possible grammatical problem may have made it sound worse when I said "lots of sticks.....", the "lots of" was only meant for the quantity of sticks. Hopefully that clears it up a little further.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

oddlot said:


> I'm sorry but if he's not exaggerating(a pic would be nice)


Lou, that's all I was saying. We have no idea if he is exaggerating. I don't mean to imply that he was. We have no idea if readers are exaggerating his description in their own mind. Only the OP knows what he really got. Now he can have some ideas to judge for himself if it was worth it or not.

For the record, I have absolutely no idea who the seller of this leaf litter is, and none of my comments were aimed at anyone in particular. I don't sell leaf litter, and I never have. I don't have any problems with anybody currently selling leaf litter on DB. I am not bashing anyone, nor am I pushing anyone's product. OP wanted to know what others were happy with. I'm happy with bulk, cheap, pesticide free, and a mostly usable product requiring minimal sorting.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Absolutely Doug,That's why I added that part,and he reiterated that "lots" was not a good way to describe it which does make a BIG difference as it did sound a lot worse.

I have no idea who it was either,but that is neither here nor there,and for all intent and purpose of the thread,we don't need or want to know.I don't think anyone took any offense to it anyway though.

Also,you made me think about grading the leaves,which was never a thought in my mind before.I only hand picked mine from my yard,because I know for sure 100% they're safe.I even planted more of both types of trees on my property,first because I love the flowers,and secondly,I have regulars that love the leaves .When you need more Pm me and I'll make you up a "B" grade box and squish the crap out of them to fit as many as I can in there.We can trade for bugs or plants or whatever,and I'll hold the bird fluff  We can save that for the "C" grade pile


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sounds good to me Lou! I'd be all over your "B" pile in swap. Love trades.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Even if you are being "too picky", I bet that an honest, reputable seller would still be willing to work with you until you were satisfied.


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