# swollen throat on cobalt



## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

I was so excited for my frogs because I'd recently built them a new tank (it is the smaller of the two builds on this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/90630-another-exo-terra-18-x-18-x-24-lots-detail.html)

I was finally able to add my frogs to the tank a couple of weeks ago...this was an upgrade from living in the projects to a high end apartment, yet they HATED it. I guess I can't blame them because they suddenly had so much 'stuff' surrounding them. They immediately went into hide mode, but would come out to eat. After they were in the tank for a few days, I noticed that one of my frogs had a gimpy arm. As if he had a dislocated shoulder (?). Approximately 5 minutes after I noticed it, he was fine...shoulder was back to normal. However, the very next day, I noticed that his throat seemed a bit puffier than normal. I kept an eye on him...he would come out every day to feed, and sure enough, it kept getting puffier and I decided he needed medical intervention. The vet prescribed Baytril and I've been treating him for three days now. He never lost his appetite, but he stayed down at the bottom of the tank and hid most of the time.

Although his neck is still swollen, it has gone down slightly. He seems to be feeling better because he was spending all of his time at the bottom of the tank and yesterday he moved up to the top floor of the tank with the other frog. My other frog has been soaking in a pod of shallow water for a few hours every night, so I've been giving that frog a drop of Baytril too (I'm under the assumption that these soaks may indicate a problem). I don't want to move either frog to a QT tank since I believe that stress may have brought this on. Stress = depressed immune system = more susceptibility to disease. It is also possible that the frog was injured somehow in the tank (esp. considering the gimpy arm incident). In any case, they are doing 'okay' and I don't want to stress them any more than is absolutely necessary. If either of them start to decline, I will move them into QT.

Here is a picture of my frog before I moved him to the new tank:









Here is a picture of him with the puffy neck (approx a week ago):









His eye looks weird in this picture because of the flash - there is nothing wrong with his eye, or anything else on him as far as I can see. The reason I am posting this is because I'd love to generate discussion on the topic. Also, I've done some extensive searching on the forum for similar stories and I've been very frustrated that so many of them peter out without a final word on the outcome. I promise to keep you all posted (to the very end) on the progress of these frogs. 
Thanks for your concern!


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Very sorry to hear about the sick frog. I hope he pulls through and recovers. My first thought would be some sort of infection. Baytril is used to treat various herp infections. If I rememeber correctly, the dosage is a very small qty per the weight of the frog, and they can very easily be overdosed. Be careful! Soaks in the water "can" sometimes indicate a problem, especially if it is out of the ordinary for the frog. Was your vet a specialized herp vet, and has he dealt with poison dart frogs before? Did he try to take any cultures whatsoever to determine any infection? Maybe you can also tell us what was used in the construction of this tank. Silicones, foams, metal, glue adhesives, plastics, what not. What kind of decor? Is there any pine or cedar in the tank? Good luck! I just got some Tincs myself, I love them, they are very endearing characters.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks, PDFcrazy -

The tank has a GS background and is sealed with Drylok. The wood is Mopani and Ghostwood. There are a few dart frog-safe seed/monkey pods and some live oak, magnolia leaf litter (all purchased...not from my backyard). I have a couple of coco huts and some cork bark in there. The plants should all be safe for darts. The substrate is AGB on top of LECA. I don't think I put anything in the tank that wasn't already discussed as 'frog-safe' on the forum, and everything (except plants) was boiled and rinsed first.

Unfortunately, he wasn't able to be seen by the local vet. There is only one vet in town that is willing to work with dart frogs, and the earliest appointment was 10 days out. At the point that I'd called (when the pic was taken) I was already way too concerned to wait another week. The Baytril was prescribed and formulated by Dr. Frye. Thanks for the warning on the potency on that. Have you heard of people overdosing and killing their frogs with Baytril? That's alarming. I've been careful to place only one drop (as per the instructions) on the frog, but the drop size can be very different in size on any given day (and I can see how easy it would be to accidentally administer two or more drops by accident). Hmmmm...good to know.

I'll keep you posted!


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

I should also mention that the frogs are 5.5 years old, in case age has an bearing on this swollen throat. I'm pretty sure that he is a male, although I've never heard him call and I've never had eggs from these two (I suspect that they are both male). 

Side note: Will males call if there is no female?


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Another thing...I went on-line and purchased amphibian ringers as soon as I noticed some swelling. But, I ordered it from Fisher Scientific and, without notifying me, my order went on backorder. So, as soon as I realized this (yesterday), I checked with Nasco Science and they seem to have what I need (Ringer's solution: 1 liter for only $6.50, item #SA09708(LM)M). I paid for a fast shipping option and should be able to fill the frogs' 'bath pods' with ARS on Monday or Tuesday. This incident is VERY stressful. Of course, it just happens to be my favorite frog 

I wish I'd never been inspired to build this new cage. If it ain't broke...


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Hell be fine, dont stress youre doing everything in your power and stressing could lead to hastey decision. Just do what you can and hell be fine, they are really resilient animals


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

This is a question, not a statement: Does edema ever manifest itself only in the throat? I have never seen/read that--anyone know?

Also, how is his appetite?

Fingers Xed!


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Good question...I certainly do not know.

His appetite is strong and has been all along.

Thanks.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

So no runny stool or puking? Gee, that should be encouraging. Again, I wish one of the professionals would weigh in on this; I have never seen edema only in the throat!

For what it is worth, I have seen male hylids in "call mode" just hang out with puffy throats. I.e., one could easily tell they are males even when not calling.

Approx. how old is this guy?


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## xIslanderx (Dec 8, 2012)

I think the frog was mentioned at 5.5 yrs. old



Groundhog said:


> So no runny stool or puking? Gee, that should be encouraging. Again, I wish one of the professionals would weigh in on this; I have never seen edema only in the throat!
> 
> For what it is worth, I have seen male hylids in "call mode" just hang out with puffy throats. I.e., one could easily tell they are males even when not calling.
> 
> Approx. how old is this guy?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I have read about swollen throats here on DB. I'll see if I can find the posts. Seems like, in one instance, the frog went to the vet and had fluid drawn from the throat and received some antibiotics.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, day 4 of antibiotics and his throat is still swollen. He is out exploring his viv today, so that's a good sign.

Stool is normal - no puking or signs of anything else wrong
I don't think it's from calling. I've never heard him call, and the puffiness is 24/7. Cobalts have a low call, so it's possible I didn't hear it. This didn't happen until I put them in the new tank though. I can't imagine he started calling as soon as I changed the environment...especially since they were acting so stressed out, but I dunno.

Thanks, Kris. I did an extensive search and, if I remember correctly, one person had this happen and it resolved itself. The rest of the posts that report swellings of the neck don't seem to conclude (what happened to the frog when it went to the vet to get fluids drawn...was that more stressful than just treating with antibiotics at home?). I just don't know. I don't want to overreact and cause more harm than is necessary. He is eating fine and cruising around the tank now. 

I remember one post by Ed that suggested older males are prone to infection of the vocal sacks...they fill with a jelly like substance. But, the prognosis didn't sound promising. He didn't elaborate though.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Well I couldn't find the one I was thinking about but here are 2 threads with bloated throats. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/71171-poorly-azureus.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ick-frog-probably-bloat-pics-please-help.html


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't recall that post well enough to say how it went. In fact, since I couldn't find it, it's possible that I made the whole thing up 

I can tell you about my own frog. She was sick and bloated. Not just throat bloat, all over bloat. The vet removed fluid with a syringe and immediately my frog appeared more comfortable. Her bloat had been affecting her breathing. The removal of the fluid was very quick and she didn't seem at all bothered by it.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Kris - I'm so glad your frog recovered from bloat! 

That poor azureus!  I think that removing the fluid is going to be a good option if my frog doesn't start to recover on his own, or if he gets worse. Thanks you so much.

I have ARS coming in the mail and will start that soon. In the meantime, here is a picture of the guy. His name is Skully...he's the one on the left with what looks like a skull on his side (I know, really creative...). His neck is slightly less swollen, but not even close to back to normal


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Sadly, she didn't recover. Her bloat was the result of a systemic infection. 

Your frog looks pretty good other than the swollen throat. Hopefully the Ringers will help him to get things under control.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear that!!!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

cpalmerpdx said:


> Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear that!!!


Very sad story. If you have about a week to spare, here's the thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/74657-lorenzo-clutch-watch.html


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Oh goodness, that was a real heart breaker  It started out so exciting...and then there was the ups and downs of getting a good clutch, and then BAM! Although I knew it was going to have a bad ending, I didn't see it happening like that. I'm so sorry, Kris. 'Lorenza' was a lucky frog to have someone like you taking such good care of her (and she was a beautiful frog). Thanks for sharing your story.

I will keep you posted on whatever happens with my frog...


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Antibiotics day 5...throat looks slightly more swollen today. My ARS hasn't arrived yet. I'm leaning heavily on pulling him out and having fluid drawn from his throat...or having it lanced, if that's what it takes. Appetite is still strong. He stayed at the bottom of the tank last night. 

Thoughts? Suggestions? I don't want my little guy to die.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

The most recent picture of him (sorry, bad quality...he doesn't like having his picture taken and I'm trying to avoid stressing him out, so this is as good as it gets). His body is not at all bloated, but his throat definitely is


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

If he's getting worse while on antibiotics, I think it might be time for him to see a vet. Poor little fella.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

I talked with the vet and he said he doesn't expect to see much change until the 10 day mark. I am going to **patiently** wait until the 10 days are up and then pull the frog and start treating him more aggressively.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, here we are, day 10 and he still has a puffy neck. He has 4 more days of antibiotics to go, but they don't seem to be making much of a difference. He has been dewormed twice now (panacur once every week for 4 weeks).

The good news is that he seems to still be feeling pretty good. He comes out and eats. Yesterday I was playing some MistKing frog calls for my tincs in the cage next to my cobalts and I looked over and was shocked to see my males (cobalts) wrestling. They've been together for over 5 years and I've never seen this behavior before. Puffy neck boy was the main aggressor and he kept pinning the other male down and holding him there. They stopped (after I broke them up) and haven't fought since. Needless to say, I won't be doing that again! 

I'll contact the vet again on Monday and try to figure out where we go from here. As soon as my amphibian ringers get here (ARGH!!!!), I will give this guy a soak and palpate his neck. What is in that neck? Is it fluid...is it jelly...is it hard? Note to everyone: GET A BOTTLE OF RINGERS NOW SO THAT YOU HAVE IT WHEN YOU NEED IT...I ordered mine several weeks ago from two different companies and paid extra for faster shipping and I STILL don't have any. 

I noticed this frog on-line and asked them why the frog has a puffy neck. Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Dendrobates tinctorius “Surinam Cobalt” They said the frog was fat. I don't think my guy is just fat  There really doesn't seem to be much information out there regarding this problem.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out what else I've been doing differently. About 6 weeks prior to moving them to their new enclosure I started to feed them more heavily (daily). I wanted to get some weight on them before moving them to a new tank so that they had fat reserves in case of appetite loss in response to shock/stress. Is this neck due to sudden weight gain (or is that wishful thinking on my part)? 

The other thing that I changed was I made a sudden switch to Repashy Calcium plus (and Vit. A once a month). I was giving Rep-cal Calcium with D3 and Herptivite. Is it possible that he's having a reaction to these new vitamins? I'm going to go back to every 2-3 day feeding and switch back to the Rep-Cal vitamins to see if that helps.

I've also added springtails and leaf litter to their viv for the first time. I can't imagine how these could cause throat swelling...but, I'm willing to consider anything at this point. 

If I could go back and change only one thing at a time....


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

That frog on Saurian Enterprises site is fat with a big fat neck. Your frog is not fat, imo. Hope you get some answers soon.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Wait a minute...

I was looking at your other posts... These frogs were 5 1/2 years old when you received them? If so, is it possible that the throat is simply stretched from years of calling and you just did not notice before??? (Hopefully, that's the case.)

Btw...that tank you built for them is gorgeous!


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks, Wendy 

I've had these frogs for 5 years now - they were only a few months old when I got them. I recently built them the new tank. I've never heard either of the males call....I don't have a female (will males call without a female present?). Today his neck looked a little bit better, but I'm going to contact the vet tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm sorry, I must've read it wrong. I thought you got them at 5 1/2 years. (It's late, and I took a sleeping pill...time to quit posting!)

Yes, they can call without a female present. They may call to alert others to that being "their" territory. But...if you've had them all this time, I doubt that neck would all the sudden be "new" to you if it's been there a while.

I hope the vet gets it figured out for you and the little guy gets better soon. I would take it as a good sign though that he's not showing any other outward signs of illness.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Well (knock wood), yesterday I noticed that my cobalt's neck was less swollen. Today he had his first ARS bath...I hope it didn't stress him out too much (I've been trying to avoid stressing him).


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

That's good news! Did you take him to the vet then? Was wondering what he/she said the cause was?


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Not yet. The earliest appt. I could get was this Friday. This is with an exotics vet who doesn't have much experience with darts, but better than nothing (apparently the vet with more experience books a couple of weeks out).


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I had some P. Esperanza shipped to me and the male had a swollen throat when he arrived. It eventually subsided after about a month and he went on to breed for me. I'm guessing it was an infection brought on by stress that he was able to fight off.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Thank you so much for sharing your experience - this gives me a lot of hope!


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

I got a call this morning from the clinic and they had to cancel my appt. because the vet is out with the flu! WAHHHH!! 

I didn't reschedule. I'm not sure what this vet can do for me. He's been wormed and treated with antibiotics. I fear that taking him to the vet (30 minute drive to get there) to be man-handled will just stress him out even more. I'm not sure what to do next...

Really discouraging.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Hi Catherine, 

I can relate to your frustration. For me it usually comes down to which way I will feel the least amount of guilt, if the end result is a dead frog. From your story I believe you should not feel guilty about not rescheduling your appt if that helps any  . 

If you do end up seeing a vet, you should mention the dislocation of his leg incident as that may be concern it starts happening again. The other thing is it sounds like your frog is not in quarantine ( I might have missed that he is) , which means if you are treating for parasites he can get re-infected if he has anything.

The good news is that it sounds like your guy is eating and not showing other symptoms and perhaps the ARS will help now that you have some.

Also … good job, you are doing much more than many would!


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks, Sally


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

I decided to just stop harassing him for a few days. Feed daily and, other than that, leave him alone. The stress just can't be a good thing. He's eating, he's pooping, he's been treated...now I'm just going to wait and see.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

I promised I wouldn't leave this thread hanging...

The update on the frog with the puffy throat is that, when all was said and done, I decided to just leave him alone. He was still eating and acting normal, but his throat was puffy. Today (months later) he is just fine. His throat is still a bit swollen looking, but he acts completely normal and is doing great!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for the update! Great to hear he's still doing ok


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