# UPDATE! Pics!!! Phyllomedusa bicolor GIANTMONKEYTREEFROG



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Anyone on here working with this frog? If so what can you tell me about them. I thought I remember a post not that long ago with egg mass pics posted. But I cant find it.


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

I know a few people at talkto.thefrog.org keep them. If noone here does, check there


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## tchok13 (Apr 5, 2006)

From my understanding:
People are keeping them but not "working with the," its a massive frog and loves to climb. I have yet to hear of anyone actually breeding them. They will also eat you out of pocket.

If I had a barn and a large enough cage, Id consider keeping them but all the ones I’ve seen in person in their normal sized tanks -90 gallons etc look miserable.


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## Detrick105 (Apr 16, 2006)

I use to keep Phyllomedusa bicolor and Phyllomedusa hypocondrialis hypocondrialis. Phyllomedusa bicolor should have a very large cage that is very tall. I would say something like 4' long x 4' tall x 18" wide would be good for a group of three. I used to keep my male in a 75 gallon tank with an empty 20 gallon tank turned upside down on it (to add some more height). I had two more that I bought from Tom Crutchfield that never made it out of quaratine. As for people breeding them here in the USA, I only know of two people that have done so succesfully and one of them is not working with P. bicolors anymore and the other person I haven't heard from for over two years. Phyllomedusa bicolors are a very neat frog and more people need to work with breeding them.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Someone is still breeding them as they are on all the wholesale lists I get. I saw some at the Houston Zoo this past week. Really cool looking frogs.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I believe Sandfire is still working with Phyllomedusa sauvagei.
Later and Happy Frogging, 
Jason Juchems


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## tchok13 (Apr 5, 2006)

joshsfrogs said:


> Someone is still breeding them as they are on all the wholesale lists I get. I saw some at the Houston Zoo this past week. Really cool looking frogs.


Wait really? Baby Bicolors for sale? This is the first I have heard of that


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Need to clear some stuff up... these frogs are all over wholesale lists because adults are imported in good amounts from Suriname. These are NOT cb babies by any means. 

Yes there has been a recent breeding... check out the site. They are still in the water, and I bet they will be a pretty penny.

The ones I saw that did well were in custom tanks... cattle water troughs as the bottom (for easy cleaning and draining) with rubber coated ~1in wire mesh to make up the top piece of the tank, making the tank somewhere around 4'x3'x6' ish. It housed maybe 5 frogs. They were fed adult crickets from a large bird dish... handy if you've got lots of adult crickets to get rid of. Roaches would probably end up being a better food source if they were your main eater for that size range.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

I currently have a HUGE specimen that (due to size and no calling) I assume to be a female. Like many frogs however I never truly know unless I see calling. I have had amplexus in the past but never eggs. I was thinking to see it to use the gigantic tank for darts but that damn site made me want to attempt a breeding again. Now to search for males again!

That is amazing to see! All those tads. With that volume I can't see the price being too ridiculous...unless they are prepared to house 100's of frogs. Being CB however they definitely will get a premium.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The breeding has proven to be just ridiculously hard... only tips I could really give would be how important cycling would be, rain chambers have helped if the animals were cycled... making sure they have large enough leaved plants too... as in philodendrons with 1'+ leaves for them to wrap around their egg clutch. I'm not entirely sure how important it is that it has to be over water, but that's how they do it in the wild...

Notes on in the wild - they preferred (at least in the population that a friend saw spawning) tree holes (where part of the tree grew in a way to form a "bucket" in the trunk) with smooth barked trees... basically so they could climb there, but egg eating snakes would have much more of a problem. 

Try thinking of basically a shower stall sized tank running a shower for hours and hours with a couple of buckets attached to the walls and some large leaves over the buckets  Maybe that would help...


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Hah!  

Sounds on to me. The tank I use is not quite that big. It's 36 x 24 x 36. I have definitely done the rain chamber to no avail but in retrospect I don't think I provided the correct surfaces for laying. 

I will be redesigning this tank ... this time using our trusty foam. I think I will try doing the trunk with a pool...should be fairly easy to do in a tank this big.

Now the hard part is getting a specimen healthy enough to nurse back. I have pretty good luck getting these guys cleaned up but it can be pretty labor intensive.

Thanks!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I think the key part that's missing is the cycling... it's a year around process. It may take you 6 months to nurse more animals back to health before you could cycle them... and the cycling itself takes a long time too. It's easy to get the males in the mood, you can toss them in the rain chamber with no cycling and not have issues. It's getting the females with eggs... and when she's got eggs, THEN put her in the chamber. It's one of the biggest mistakes I've seen people new to TFs do, put in females thinking she'll randomly develop eggs that fast


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

I can't vouch for the integrity of all exotic wholesalers (some I know have no integrity, no brains, or a combination of the two), but they are being listed as "CB babies". Could also be another "farm".


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Interesting... even more interesting would be getting some to see if they actually were babies. I could think of places that would wholesale babies if they got them and not make a big deal out of having got them... but I didn't think they were still working with them.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

UmbraSprite said:


> Now the hard part is getting a specimen healthy enough to nurse back. I have pretty good luck getting these guys cleaned up but it can be pretty labor intensive.
> 
> Thanks!


Do you have any good tips or advice for acclimating new bicolors?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Corey,
I thought Sandfire was captive breeding the Phyllomedusa sauvagei. I would not be surprised that they are not the source of the albino woodhouse toads on all the price list.
Jason Juchems


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

We're getting confused here.... all my posts have been in reference to Phyllomedusa bicolor, not Phyllomedusa sauvagei. Yes, Sandfire is breeding Phyllomedusa sauvagei and that's where a large portion of the CB Phyllomedusa sauvagei are coming from. This would not explain where CB Phyllomedusa BICOLOR are coming from if they are appearing on wholesale lists. I don't think it's Sandfire... as they usually post part of their stock for sale on Kingsnake.

As for acclimating... I'm not entirely sure, and talking with a qualified vet would probably be better than asking most on this board... Ed K might have some good suggestions... Getting them straight from the importer as soon as they are imported helps... don't bother having some middle man involved, especially one that will "treat" the frogs for you... either put down the time and money to do it yourself, or don't get involved in the frogs. There are multiple things that can come up with newly imported frogs... bacterial infections, nose rub, worms, etc. It's stressful on the frogs' bodies to treat all these issues at the same time (especially when meds like panacur can cause dehydration, not to mention the shocks to the system) so you need to develop a treatment plan with your vet. I recently treated some frogs that typically developed bacterial infections, so their first meds where antibiotics, and they got wormed near the end of their quarentine (90 days) after most of the other treatments were done. 

The only thing I know is common in these frogs is nose rub... very, very common... make sure these get treated. There are good pastes that you can put on the wounds to keep the infection from spreading, and let it heal. These will scar, but better to have a scar and a live frog.

Make sure in their Q tanks they get decent enough air flow and have perches that are dry... sitting on wet things, especially in stagnant air can cause them to develop sores and infections on the feet and belly.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

pics coming soon...........


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

I have a really good vet who worked out a protocol with me for treating new imports. I will have to dig around to look for it. She had no experience with this species but managed to help me keep 4 specimens from a shipment of 18 alive and well.....the others went to the National Aquarium in Baltimore and the importer....none of which survived.

We used three treatments. 

1. A triple antibiotic creme/gel on scrapes (nose rubs)

2. A 15 minute daily soak (preferable to other more invasive/stressful methods) 

3. Powdered crickets.

I can't remember which meds were used so I will have to dig up that info for you. These guys are actually tough little suckers and can be "force fed" if necessary to keep them going. Once you drop something in their mouths...down it goes. No mess, no fuss.

I STRONGLY recommend getting the animals well hydrated and feeding regularly before treating. As was mentioned the medications can tax them in most cases worse than any parasites they may have. 

I quarrantine in large plastic containers with screen lids. I put in perches and a large dog bowl of fresh water daily. (I let tap sit at least 24 hours to dechlorinate although it probably isn't necessary with these guys) Every few days I completely rinse out the containers. They will go right to the water and soak up all they need. I do an occasional mist but it really isn't necessary for this species as long as they have a place to obtain water via soaking.

My current specimens showed some parasite load in the fecals but not enough to warrant my treating them. Frequent cleaning and water changes prevent increased loads. If appetite or weight drops I will re-fecal. The first specimens I kept however....were a veritably parasitology textbook. I have never seen so many organisms on a slide. 

If you are interested in the specifics of what meds and dosages I used let me know and I will dig up the info or contact my vet friend and see if she can remind me.

Chris


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I'm a little late getting to this and perhaps some has already been covered, but last weekend I saw some F1 that were in amplexus. They original adults are mostly still alive and were imported from Surnam and hand delivered to LA. The frogs were heavily misted when they arrived in the states and the frogs went into amplexis and laid eggs, many of which hatched and a few of which have been raised to adulthood. These offspring are now in amplexis and I wouldn't be surprised if they breed again, if she wants them to breed. They are kept in large screen cages set in plastic pond liners with lots of large live plants and the whole set up kept in a greenhouse. There was an article written on breeding them in a Phylomedusine dedicated volume of one of the popular European herp magazines, last year or the year before. Sorry I don't remember the magazine name or issue, but I think a google search could turn that up. 

Best,

Chuck



tchok13 said:


> From my understanding:
> People are keeping them but not "working with the," its a massive frog and loves to climb. I have yet to hear of anyone actually breeding them. They will also eat you out of pocket.


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## doc1975 (Aug 16, 2006)

*The breeders were...*

I know of only one company/person that has successfully bred the bicolors as of yet. This is to say bred long term captive adults as opposed to fresh imports which were imported during their breeding season and heavily misted upon arrival and subsequently having the fresh imports breed... 

They wrote an article which can be found in a back issue of the european magazine, Reptilia... here is some info i copied from the mascarino.com site...

_"EDUCATION AND EYEFULL AT RECENT PUBLICATION (AT LAST!!!!) OF OUR TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS KEEPING AND BREEDING REPEATEDLY, LONG-TERM WILD-CAUGHT NO-ARTIFICIAL HORMONES-ADDED GIANT WAXY MONKEY TREEFROGS (PHYLLOMEDUSA BICOLOR) AS RECENTLY DESCRIBED BY YOUR AUTHORESS SANDY SODEN IN ARTICLE ENTITLED "PHYLLOMEDUSA BICOLOR; BREEDING GIANT WAXY MONKEY FROGS", IN MOST VENERABLE "REPTILIA, THE EUROPEAN HERP MAGAZINE"; AND AVAILABLE FROM THEM AT http://www.reptilia.net IN YOUR CHOICE OF FOUR CONVENIENT LANGUAGES, THE MONKEYFROG ISSUE: ENGLISH #39 (SPRING 2005), GERMAN #52, SPANISH #52, AND ITALIAN #1. "_

And considering that breeders of the more P. Sauvagii are getting on average of $99 ea, it's safe to say that producers of P. Bicolor could easily get $150 to $200 each...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The trial for those "breeding" bicolor is to do it repeatidly... which seems to be the issue. Yes, fresh WCs have been bred - females already with eggs. Getting LTC females with eggs is one of the major issues (males calling and amplexus, as with many anurans, is relatively easy) and getting them repeatidly to produce eggs over time, rather than flukes...

There have been a handful of LTC breedings that I've heard of, not all the breedings have been of the fresh WCs. Most were accidents, but I think at least one person other than Mascarino is figuring out non-hormone ways to do it, then next couple breeding seasons will tell. Mascarino's website has been on that one page for so long I wonder if they still work with frogs...

As for the price... sure they could ask for $200, but would they sell for that? PDF keepers are willing to pay that much for a frog, but treefrogs? Not so much... and the prices I've heard floating around aren't that high. Remember that these are very much specialty frogs that have specific requirements the average person probably can't or won't provide (huge tank and lots of food for what most consider a lawn ornament...). Sauvagii are much more reasonable in needs and less people seem to be breeding them...


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

So here it is. 





























MALE









MALE









FEMALE


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I was actually going to suggest contacting Mike Novy - who is the person mentioned earlier.

Mike has had very good luck breeding phyllomedusa frogs. It has been a few years since I saw his greenhouse dedicated to waxys and he didn't have the giants at the time. But he kept everything simple - paper towels for substrate - remember bigger frogs = bigger do do. Vines, plants and usually a rainbar (PVC drilled) hooked up to a pump for the wet periods. 

The enclosure he made for the giants was supposed to be massive. If you look at the leaf they laid on in the picture, that is a monstera and those things get massive.

Melis


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

Corey -- Sandy Soden at Mascarino no longer works with frogs. They claim to be "on vacation" or whatever is written up there on the site, but they're done. I even called her house from the website thinking maybe they still have frogs (since they had some rare ones I had my eyes on), but they don't. In fact, I was met with quite an attitude, like, 'why was I calling?' As if I was bothering them. Well, no one told them to put their number up on the site, and certainly no one told them not to change the status to 'retired.' Would save people like you and me from speculating, instead of getting some bitch-attitude over the phone.

She has written a few good articles however on frogs in Reptiles Magazine here in the States.

Do people keep the bicolors in captivity at room temperature, or special heating resources like lamps and stuff? I know what their natural habitat is like, but I'm specifically seeking what has worked with the peoples' experiences.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Keeping in mind that "keeping" and "breeding" are two completely different th ings....I have always kept mine between 72-80. The specimens I have now are in a HUGE terrarium in my living room which is consistently 71-73.

They do great a this temp but it may be low for replicating the natural habitat. I do use a nice big light on the tank for plant growth which I am sure raising the temp a few degrees but I haven't put a thermometer in this tank as I know it doesn't get too warm.

I am looking up my favorite vet Dr Heather Bowles who was just amazing at helping me acclimate wc bicolor. I will give you the regimen I used on them as soon as she refreshes my memory....

Chris


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

Just returned from Daytona NRBE and picked up a trio of CB baby P. bicolors. They were from Mike at rainforestjunkys.com . These guys are about 10 days out of the water. Not much trouble to house them now but from what I've been reading I will need a much bigger vivarium as they grow older. 
George


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've seen a group of 5 or 6 animals kept in a cage made from a water trough on the bottom, with rubber coated inch or so mesh to create the top part, that went higher than my head (i'm 5'8"). These guys roam at night... they need lots of room, both hieght and horizontal.

I don't really think the tank posted earlier has the horizontal room to house the pair... sit another one of those tanks next to it, vertical the same way and I'd feel a lot better about it. Also adding some large vines for more climbing and perching. Otherwise, you'll get more nose rubbing... and speaking of nose rub, make sure to treat that male's nose!


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

Thanks Corey for the housing info. I purchased a "Waterlandtub" before leaving the expo. These large tubs are used for turtles and they provide both an aquatic reservoir and a gentle ramp leading up to a land area for nesting, etc. I plan to build a 4' high, 24" deep and 5' wide vivarium top to fit over it. Sides and front will be glass with a vinyl covered wire top for ventilation. The tub/viv will sit above the ground so I can plumb the pond and land area (for drainage) into a large filter reservoir underneath with a submersible pump returning water to the pond with a spraybar. Placing the pump on a timer and mounting the spray bar up high will allow for a rainchamber effect during attempts to induce breeding/egglaying. The tub is large enough to accommodate some stout aroids that can lean out over the water and provide egglaying sites. 
Got plenty time to work out to kinks as my little dime-sized froglets grow out of their temp quarters.
George


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Additional recomendations....

Sounds like that set up will rock! The benefit of using the water trough/deep sink set ups (deep sinks with similar viv top additions make for great rain chambers) is that during the dry season, all you need to do is hose off the floor to clean the worst off the bottom of the tank. In rainchamber mode, the water can be quickly drained out when soiled, and then refilled. I'd leave the water section dry except when attempting to breed. The land area will be handing to plant large philos and what not in, and let them ramble around the tank. While they will hopefully be used for breeding later, I wouldn't assume they would be suitable perches... make sure to get some nice broad vines for the frogs to perch and walk on (even a thick philo vine is still very thin for an adult!). The philos will later grow on these vines too 

These guys are from the canopy... They do prefer it a bit drier (which is why I recomend keeping the pond dry during most of the year, and only watering the tank enough to keep the philo happy), and probably would do well to have a night time (red/blue) basking lamp at one end over a perch so they can thermoregulate... you may have initial room temps too cool for them, but if you find them chilling under the lamp all day you know you need to up the temps!


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

Thanks Corey. You bring up some good points. One is temperature. My room is set up for dart frogs and probably a bit cool. Plant lighting should raise the temp somewhat during the day, and I have radiant heat panels that can be used at night. You are right about ventilation. These are arboreal animals and are not happy in stagnant high humidity. I like your idea about keeping the plug pulled on the water side during the "dry season".  
George


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> I don't really think the tank posted earlier has the horizontal room to house the pair... sit another one of those tanks next to it, vertical the same way and I'd feel a lot better about it. Also adding some large vines for more climbing and perching. Otherwise, you'll get more nose rubbing... and speaking of nose rub, make sure to treat that male's nose!



Yeah the extra room for them would be awsome. In the future I may think of a way to extend there tank. I also plan on getting some more vines siliconed into the tank but I really needed to get them in it as soon as I could cause im in Panama now and I wanted them in the big tank before I left. So when I get home Ill fix it up. And the nose is doing alot better. They havent been rubing since I got them. I got him like that.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yeah, they come in like that a lot  I didn't think it happened with you  Even in that small sized tank they'd be less likely to get that type rub! It also looked to be healing. Let us know what cool stuff you come up with later


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And some good info from the bicolor breeder himself! Check out the ad....



> Eating 1/4" crickets, must be kept like redeyes for the first 2 months: screen top with 80% covered. Less coverage when they are adults. Use moist spag. moss on the bottom with a shallow dish of distilled water. Mist once or twice a day to help with shedding (DEPENDS HOW DRY YOUR HOUSE IS). I do recommend a 2% UVB bulb at 2 months old. The adults seem to do 100% better when they have this above them. Ficus trees and drift wood sugguested because they like to climb and perch under the light during the day.Very simular care as the waxy monkeys when adult, just not as dry. Keep in mind these are the giant waxys. Adults need a larger enclosure. The babies are turning more ice blue every day and doubled in size in the first 2weeks


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

They were at the daytona show 75.00 a piece and nobody was buying them anyone who did get some you got a great deal.Very healthy froglet's.


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## memnoch1970 (Apr 17, 2007)

*mike novy*

mike at rainforrest junkies has them 75$ cb.

Edited by MJ: Unregisterd vendor feed back removed.


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

I got three at the Daytona show. 180.oo For the trio.


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