# reptile store mixing



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

ok so my local rep store has a tank with d. azureus, d.auratus, pygmy chameleons and long tailed grass lizards and an occasional mourning gecko all under one hood. i know this is not an ideal set up but the guy was telling me the auratus and azureus do good together and could even be kept with luecs too. he also states that breeders often house multiple morphs together in one big tank. he says that its really a matter of opinion and hes not putting the animals at risk. is this guy just a lying douche? he seemed to be very knowledgable about everything else and this was the one point we disaggreed on.

lol but really though iv seen them always set up the same when and the inhabitants never seem unhealthy. only thing i noticed was some PDFs were alittle skinny which is probably due to food compitition. i was considering putting auratus and maybe some pygmy chams and LTG lizards in my new enclosure. i also have a pretty large tank though. iv done alot of research and think this can be done but does anyone know of any trouble i might run into? i do not plan on mixing PDFs because i know so many people are against it so no need to educate me on that. 

also would you even buy auratus from a store that has them in the same cage with azureus?


----------



## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

I think when it comes down to it some pet stores will do whatever it takes to make a profit. Unfortunately they are more worried about profit then safety for the frogs. This is unfortunate because you get new people joining the hobby that think that this is ok and try and replicate something like this in a ten gallon. 
I know there are people out there who do mix some frogs and geckos together but they are usually more knowledgable then I am and have large enough tanks to do so.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I really don't know much about any of those reptiles, just the frogs. In any case, just because some animals can be kept together without immediately killing each other, doesn't mean they do well together. I bet he never even considered the pathogens and diseases they could spread, and I doubt he would have quarentined them. I would also think there could be some differences in temperature,feeding, and humidity requirments between the lizards and dart frogs, which could cause problems. 
How large is you new tank? Have you ever kept the different species individually?
To answer your last question, I would not... I probably would not buy any poison dart frogs from pet stores since I can get usually them healthier, less expensive, and with information on the line and help any time I have questions from a private breeder/ hobyist or sponsor here.
Bryan


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> also would you even buy auratus from a store ...





Baltimore Bryan said:


> To answer your last question, I would not... I probably would not buy any poison dart frogs from pet stores since I can get usually them healthier, less expensive, and with information on the line and help any time I have questions from a private breeder/ hobbyist or sponsor here.
> Bryan


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I really don't know much about any of those reptiles, just the frogs. In any case, just because some animals can be kept together without immediately killing each other, doesn't mean they do well together. I bet he never even considered the pathogens and diseases they could spread, and I doubt he would have quarentined them. I would also think there could be some differences in temperature,feeding, and humidity requirments between the lizards and dart frogs, which could cause problems.
> How large is you new tank? Have you ever kept the different species individually?
> To answer your last question, I would not... I probably would not buy any poison dart frogs from pet stores since I can get usually them healthier, less expensive, and with information on the line and help any time I have questions from a private breeder/ hobyist or sponsor here.
> Bryan


my tank is 36x18x36 and i have had experience with caring for many reptiles before. i have had auratus for alittle while but i had to go away to college so i got rid of them. i have never kept pygmy chams tho so thats why im alittle hesitant. i have kept LTG lizards before also. i did my research and although there are slight changes in the requirments for the auratus, pygmys and LTGL, i think that i can make some micro climates in the tank able to accomidate all of them. the way im setting up the tank it will hopefully be alittle cooler and more humid on the bottom, and less humid on top with a basking side(higher temp) and a cooler side.


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Frankly, in a box that size I think you'll have a hard time appeasing all 3 of those species requirements well. True, you can make it so they don't die, but that doesn't mean you should keep them together. Aren't most pygmy chameleons wild caught, cause that's circles us back to the pathogen argument against mixing (and no, that's not just a dart frog argument).

Google search



> it will hopefully be a little cooler and more humid on the bottom, and less humid on top with a basking side(higher temp) and a cooler side.


Having tried to set up niches before I can tell you from experience that it's more difficult than you seem to think. As much as you hope it will be a little cooler/humid on the bottom, that may not actually happen. In my opinion, set the tank up first, let it grow in for a couple months and then start testing it to see if you were even able to achieve these niches you were hoping for. Honestly, I'm doubtful you'd be able to achieve your goals in that sized tank and for what you're trying to do, I wouldn't consider it all that large of a tank.


----------



## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Someone said in another thread "Instead, ask yourself 'Should I mix these animals' instead of 'Can I mix these animals'."

This is not specific to different dart locations, but all "terrarium" animals.


----------



## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

I think the longer you are into PDFs the more you will realize that a 36x18x36 is not really that big of a tank. It is good for a pair or maybe a small group depending on the species but that's about it.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You mean out side of the novel pathogen issues? 

Ed


----------



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Frankly, in a box that size I think you'll have a hard time appeasing all 3 of those species requirements well. True, you can make it so they don't die, but that doesn't mean you should keep them together. Aren't most pygmy chameleons wild caught, cause that's circles us back to the pathogen argument against mixing (and no, that's not just a dart frog argument).
> 
> Google search
> 
> ...


Yea i am planning on having it running for 2-3 months before even considering getting somehting for it, leaving me time to test and record the conditions of all parts of the tanks. its just so frustrating because i really like all these animals and would have a hard time being able to house them all in seperate tanks. then you have some people saying it can be done without any problems and others on the opposite end of that argument. i really do want the best for my critters so i will probably end up just getting a small group of PDFs. 

also about the pathogen problem, wouldnt you think there is that risk no matter what if you have more than one animal in one tank even if they are the same species? i mean yea im sure there is more of a chance when mixing because certain animals may be immune to certain things that others arent but im wondering how much more of a chance there is.

heres a hypothetical situation tho, say i bought a pair or small group of PDFs let them get settled into the tank and observe their behavior for a few months. if after that i notice they dont really leave to far off the floor and feel the canopy of my tank is bein under utilized could I possibly introduce a cham or two? i could even set up my old 38 gallon and house the chams in there for a month and observe their behavior and if all looks like it would work out, add them to the new tank? or would a territory problem probably insue soon after? i heard that if you are going to introduce multiple animals(not even mixing) you should add them all at the same time so they can get their own territory, rather than having one already established with a territory then put something new in and the original animal would be more aggressive in defending its territory. what do you guys think?


----------



## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

BOOSHIFIED said:


> I think the longer you are into PDFs the more you will realize that a 36x18x36 is not really that big of a tank. It is good for a pair or maybe a small group depending on the species but that's about it.


I wish I could have a corner of my house for each pair of my tincs and not just a 20 gallon.


Do you have experience with each of these different species in a single species enclosure? Could you write up a detailed and experience filled care sheet for each of these animals?


----------



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

BOOSHIFIED said:


> I think the longer you are into PDFs the more you will realize that a 36x18x36 is not really that big of a tank. It is good for a pair or maybe a small group depending on the species but that's about it.


really? cause i seem to see alot of people housing a pair or small group in 20g and for something that is more than 5x that size i feel like only having a pair will leave the tank pretty empty.


----------



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

eldalote2 said:


> I wish I could have a corner of my house for each pair of my tincs and not just a 20 gallon.
> 
> 
> Do you have experience with each of these different species in a single species enclosure? Could you write up a detailed and experience filled care sheet for each of these animals?


not all but most. i am in no way saying i am an expert in any of these animals needs but i do have a great deal of knowledge about them. i understand you should be able to know the ins and outs of each animal before taking the chance of making a mixed enclosure, but believe me this is more for my curiosity then it is for getting help on actually doing it. i will more then likely stick to an auratus only tank, but im sooooo maddddddd about how tall this thing is for a terrestrial species. i guess i should of researched more on here before i got this tank thinking that i could put some lizards in it too. I really am set on auratus though because i see them all the time in costa rica and remind me of my second home 

i just wish this hobby had more fact based information on it. i hate how one person with alot of experience will tell you one thing, then another with the same amount of experience will tell you the opposite. i know no matter if it can be done or not, all these animals would be happier being seperate so thats why i will end up just housing one species.


----------



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

and then you also have sites like Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc. who seem to be very reputable and knowledgable saying that you can mix and even gives you suggestions on which frogs are good to mix.


Can You Suggest Some Combinations of Dart Frogs That Might Make Good Tankmates? 

The sexed pairs that we offer make a great focal point for a tank, and I think a pair of D.azureus along with a three or four orange galacs is a striking combination. The forty breeder is a good size for this group. Many other frogs can stand in for the two species in this combination, such as replacing the Orange galactonotus with Green and Black D. auratus, or substituting a pair of cobalts for the azureus. Another choice might be a group of Phyllobates terribilis, along with a thumbnail frog such as D. imitator. The terribilis is a rather sedentary frog, and very terrestrial in our tanks here, and generally completely ignore other frogs in the tank. Of course thumbnail frogs are best left until after you have some experience with other larger dart frogs. 





...man you guys must get tired of these types of posts


----------



## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

shibbyplustax said:


> really? cause i seem to see alot of people housing a pair or small group in 20g and for something that is more than 5x that size i feel like only having a pair will leave the tank pretty empty.


A 20 should be the absolute minimum for a pair. 

Would you want to be stuck in a 10 foot cube for your entire life?


----------



## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

You are going to be very surprised at how much your terrestrial frogs will climb. My ping pong ball terribilis have favorite perching spots at the very very very top of my 40 gallon that has to be over two feet tall. If you make routes for them to climb, they will climb and utilize every inch of their tank, even the fatties.


----------



## froggymike (Jan 11, 2010)

Shibby, Don't think of it as an empty tank with only two frogs. I have a 60 gal with a pair of BJs and when they are out you see them. When they want to hide they are completely invisible. If you want the best for the animals then do what is best for them. Larger tanks with lots of places to feel secure.


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

shibbyplustax said:


> and then you also have sites like Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc. who seem to be very reputable and knowledgable saying that you can mix and even gives you suggestions on which frogs are good to mix.
> 
> 
> Can You Suggest Some Combinations of Dart Frogs That Might Make Good Tankmates?
> ...


Alright, I don't agree with all that much on that site in the first place, but if you would have taken the time to read just a couple lines down from your quote he then goes to expressly talk about why it's a bad idea to put other animals in with dart frogs. There's at least 3 decent paragraphs describing why it's a bad idea...

One thing that I see a lot of, especially with newer/younger hobbyists in almost any hobby is a selective blindness to anything they don't want to hear/read. It's very tempting to grab hold of an idea that you like and ignore anything that refutes it or shows your idea's flaws. Not directing that at you especially since you already said you wouldn't mix, rather just making a generalized observation.


----------



## SavannaZilla (Jan 19, 2011)

Alright, I'm not the person to look to for dart frog information. But I do know a bunch about reptiles. First of all, reptiles are unlike most amphibians in that they like to bask. Also, take into consideration that pygmy chameleons will live only around 2 to 3 years. The long tailed grass lizards need UVB lighting. Also, all of these animals are from different areas of the world:

Pygmy chameleons- Africa
Dart Frogs- South America
Long tailed Grass lizards- Asia

Take all of these factors into consideration. You would need to definitely quarantine all of the animals for, I'd say, at least a month before you introduced them into the tank. Next you'd need different sized prey items: small to medium sized crickets or roaches for the long tailed grass lizards, fruit flies or small crickets for the pygmy chameleons, and fruit flies for the darts. Also, you'd need to make a large temperature gradient, with the basking area on one side of the tank with a temperature around 90 degrees, and the cool side around 70 to 75 degrees, which is kind of hard to achieve. If you can do it, then think about humidity. Pygmy chameleons and dart frogs would do great in 80% humidity, but long tailed grass lizards like it a little lower, around 75%. After that, think about the UVB requirements of the two species of lizards and how UVB cannot filter through glass lids. All and all, I would not do this setup if you don't have much experience with darts. 

And you asked what we think would be good roommates for darts. 
Well, lets go through the list of reptiles. 

Crocodilians: Dangerous to humans! NO! 
Turtles/Tortoises: Too big. No. 
Snakes: Possibly a few blind snakes, but you'd never see them and you'd have to seed the tank with springtails, isopods, or termites often. But otherwise, no snakes. Maybe, if you don't want to see them.
Lizards: 
A. Agamids: Too big. No.
B. Chameleons: Possibly the pygmy. Maybe.
C. Iguanids: Waaaay to big. No.
D. Anoles: Possibly the green, brown, and other small anoles, but even they might try to eat the darts. Maybe.
E. Horned and other desert dwelling lizards: Desert dwelling. No. 
F. Neotropical ground lizards: Too big, may harass the darts. No.
G. Monitors and Tegus: Would eat darts in a heart beat. No. 
H. Geckos: If you wanted any that were active, I'd go with some dwarf day geckos. Like Neon, Peacock, or Gold dust day geckos. But even they might mess around with the darts. Maybe. 
I. Legless Lizards: All would eat or harass the darts. No.
J. Skinks: I really wouldn't go with this group if your looking for something to be out in the open. They like to burrow. But if you want some, go with the smaller species. Maybe.
K. Spiny tailed and related lizards: Desert species or large. No. 

Amphibians: 
Frogs and Toads
A. Fire bellied toads: Would eat darts. No. 
B. Spadefoot toads: Different environment and would eat darts. No.
C. Clawed frogs: Aquatic and would eat darts in a heartbeat. No.
D. Sqeaking frogs: Interesting. Live a life similar to darts, but from South Africa. But probably would harass and compete for food. Maybe.
E. Saddleback toads: Interesting. Also from Brazil. Probably rare in collections. Maybe. 
F. True toads: Would eat darts. No.
G. True frogs: Most would eat darts. No. 
H. Pacman frogs: Haha, no. Guess why?
I. Treefrogs: Would eat darts. No.
J. Mantellas: Madagascan dart frogs basically. Different temperature requirements and might be harassed by darts. Maybe. 
K. Narrow mouthed toads: Small but drab. Might do good with darts. Maybe.

Salamanders and Newts: Like temperatures lower than darts, many would eat darts, many more need a sizeable water container, which darts could drown in. No.

Caecilians, Sirens, and Amphiumas: Would eat darts. Need a huge tank and water container. No. 

There is my long answer. Hope it helped.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

shibbyplustax said:


> really? cause i seem to see alot of people housing a pair or small group in 20g and for something that is more than 5x that size i feel like only having a pair will leave the tank pretty empty.


It is a big tank. Not huge, but big. And I commend you for going big for the animals you love. In the end you're going to do what you want, but I'd really recommend not screwing up a good first step with a bad second step. The second you talk about mixing species that big single species tank becomes a very small tank....



shibbyplustax said:


> also about the pathogen problem, wouldnt you think there is that risk no matter what if you have more than one animal in one tank even if they are the same species? i mean yea im sure there is more of a chance when mixing because certain animals may be immune to certain things that others arent but im wondering how much more of a chance there is.


Yes and no. Pathogens are more likely to occur and be spread the more sources you get your frogs from. So, if you get one auratus from one vendor and one auratus from a different vendor (should be done) then there's an increased risk of cross-contamination than if you bought both from the same breeder (at least they'd both already have the same pathogen). If you got just two species and you got one species from the same source and the other from a different source then you'd have about the same chance of spreading pathogens. If you got two species the right way then you'd double your risk for pathogen cross contamination (if you got four frogs from four sources). And so on....

All of this ignores the issue that Ed mentioned of novel pathogens. Basically if you mix animals from different populations you may introduce a pathogen to one animal that it is unaccustomed to and ill-equipped to combat.... Does that make sense?



shibbyplustax said:


> and then you also have sites like Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc. who seem to be very reputable and knowledgable saying that you can mix and even gives you suggestions on which frogs are good to mix.
> 
> 
> Can You Suggest Some Combinations of Dart Frogs That Might Make Good Tankmates?
> ...


Yeah... this is not the only questionable thing I've seen come out of there....


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The most recent discussion on the novel pathogen issue is in this thread.. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...-mixing-thumbs-larger-frogs-3.html#post623807 


Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I get what your trying to do but some additional comments... 



SavannaZilla said:


> Take all of these factors into consideration. You would need to definitely quarantine all of the animals for, I'd say, at least a month before you introduced them into the tank.


A simple 30 day quarantine isn't sufficient as it doesn't give any idea as to parasite/pathogen loads. For amphibians 30 days and/or at least two fecals taken at least seven days apart will give a better picture. With lizards, 60 days and at least 3 fecals at least seven days apart will give you an idea. If the fecals are positive for parasites, then it is the second or third clean fecal post treatment or okay from your vet. 



SavannaZilla said:


> think about the UVB requirements of the two species of lizards and how UVB cannot filter through glass lids. All and all, I would not do this setup if you don't have much experience with darts.


On what basis are you making the assumption that they need UVB in addition to sufficient and appropriate dietary supplementation? 



SavannaZilla said:


> Snakes: Possibly a few blind snakes, but you'd never see them and you'd have to seed the tank with springtails, isopods, or termites often. But otherwise, no snakes. Maybe, if you don't want to see them.


On what basis are you restricting it only to this species? On what basis are you determining that there are no other possible species of snakes?



SavannaZilla said:


> C. Iguanids: Waaaay to big. No.
> D. Anoles: Possibly the green, brown, and other small anoles, but even they might try to eat the darts. Maybe.
> E. Horned and other desert dwelling lizards: Desert dwelling. No.


When did anoles get removed from iguanids? When did Horned lizards get removed from iguanids? As I understand it the redefinition by Frost was not accepted and the traditional view still holds those species as iguanids... 



SavannaZilla said:


> F. Neotropical ground lizards: Too big, may harass the darts. No.


What taxa does this refer to? You've covered iguanids, geckos, agamids..etc.. 



SavannaZilla said:


> H. Geckos: If you wanted any that were active, I'd go with some dwarf day geckos. Like Neon, Peacock, or Gold dust day geckos. But even they might mess around with the darts. Maybe.


Why are you recommeding species that do not coexist in the wild as opposed to those that do like spaherodactylids or gonatodes? 



SavannaZilla said:


> K. Spiny tailed and related lizards: Desert species or large. No.


weren't these already covered under iguanids? 



SavannaZilla said:


> I. Treefrogs: Would eat darts. No.


This is a broad statement that totally ignores small hylids that are native to the same area with the dendrobatids.. as an example on what basis are your ruling out D. ebracattus? They don't even consume thier own metamorphs when housed in groups... 



SavannaZilla said:


> K. Narrow mouthed toads: Small but drab. Might do good with darts. Maybe.


Again, you are recommending species that come from diverse regions which amplifies the novel pathogen issues while ignoring those from the same zoogeographic region.


----------



## gosaspursm (Mar 12, 2011)

Being a lizard person that has ventured into frogs I wanted to mix species from the beginning. I aquired a 75 gallon cage and created a good mix of micro climates for both my leucs and L. williamsi (electric blue day geckos). Both animals required very similar conditions, yet the leucs were terrestrial and the williamsi aboreal. All seemed good..... that said, it only took a couple months before my leucs got sick with bacterial infections. While I kept the cage very clean it is inevitable that frogs will cross lizard stool and vice versa. After spending a small fortune on frog meds, the lesson has been learned. While mixing can be done, I would stay away from it. Just my two cents.


----------



## shibbyplustax (Feb 28, 2011)

froggymike said:


> Shibby, Don't think of it as an empty tank with only two frogs. I have a 60 gal with a pair of BJs and when they are out you see them. When they want to hide they are completely invisible. If you want the best for the animals then do what is best for them. Larger tanks with lots of places to feel secure.



Yea im in the process of building a 100 gallon exoterra with a ton of hiding spots and a ton of plants when i get to that stage. How many frogs do you think i can comfortably put in there? I can post a pic of the tank as of now if needed.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

shibbyplustax said:


> Yea im in the process of building a 100 gallon exoterra with a ton of hiding spots and a ton of plants when i get to that stage. How many frogs do you think i can comfortably put in there? I can post a pic of the tank as of now if needed.


That isn't an easy question to answer.. If you want to get an idea on how things including tank size affect the available space, I covered some of that with my first thread on the board. see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html 

Ed


----------



## SavannaZilla (Jan 19, 2011)

Ed: I think that you are an awesome person and one of the people I would look to for advice. But let me answer your questions and comments.



> A simple 30 day quarantine isn't sufficient as it doesn't give any idea as to parasite/pathogen loads. For amphibians 30 days and/or at least two fecals taken at least seven days apart will give a better picture. With lizards, 60 days and at least 3 fecals at least seven days apart will give you an idea. If the fecals are positive for parasites, then it is the second or third clean fecal post treatment or okay from your vet.


I completely agree. I was just giving an estimate so they don't quarantine too little. 



> On what basis are you making the assumption that they need UVB in addition to sufficient and appropriate dietary supplementation?


Alright, I was definitely off on my assumption. I have had lizards and other animals that "needed" UVB and kept them perfectly fine with dietary supplements. 



> On what basis are you restricting it only to this species? On what basis are you determining that there are no other possible species of snakes?


I really don't think the commonly available species would go good with darts. 



> When did anoles get removed from iguanids? When did Horned lizards get removed from iguanids? As I understand it the redefinition by Frost was not accepted and the traditional view still holds those species as iguanids...


I should've said Iguanas instead of Iguanids. Sorry.



> What taxa does this refer to? You've covered iguanids, geckos, agamids..etc..


The curly tails and related species. They should've been with Iguanids.



> Why are you recommeding species that do not coexist in the wild as opposed to those that do like spaherodactylids or gonatodes?


I completely forgot about those. 



> weren't these already covered under iguanids?


Are Sudan plated lizards and those iguanids?



> This is a broad statement that totally ignores small hylids that are native to the same area with the dendrobatids.. as an example on what basis are your ruling out D. ebracattus? They don't even consume thier own metamorphs when housed in groups...


Yes, I was ignorant about those. Sorry.



> Again, you are recommending species that come from diverse regions which amplifies the novel pathogen issues while ignoring those from the same zoogeographic region.


Yes. I was, and there is no easy way that you can get CB babies. 

But you do agree with me that crocodilians and monitor lizards are out of the question?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SavannaZilla said:


> I really don't think the commonly available species would go good with darts.


How about some of the Corallus? 




SavannaZilla said:


> I should've said Iguanas instead of Iguanids. Sorry.


No need to apologize, I was just questioning it. 




SavannaZilla said:


> Are Sudan plated lizards and those iguanids?


That is the first time I've heard about plated lizards called spiny, when a lizard is referred to as a spiny lizard, I typically think of spiny tailed iguanas, Madagascan spiny tailed iguanids (Oplurus), and the Sceloperus referred to as spiny lizards. 



SavannaZilla said:


> Yes. I was, and there is no easy way that you can get CB babies.


If they are going to quarantine and treat, why is there the discrimination against wc? Captive bred is better but it should be clear that it is not synonomous with parasite free animals.... 



SavannaZilla said:


> But you do agree with me that crocodilians and monitor lizards are out of the question?


Yes... 

Ed


----------



## SavannaZilla (Jan 19, 2011)

> How about some of the Corallus?


Wow. I completely forgot about those. Thanks for reminding me. But no Morelia, right? I read that they are known to occasionally eat herps. Probably a bigger problem with babies than adults in the dart frog equation.




> That is the first time I've heard about plated lizards called spiny, when a lizard is referred to as a spiny lizard, I typically think of spiny tailed iguanas, Madagascan spiny tailed iguanids (Oplurus), and the Sceloperus referred to as spiny lizards.


Another big mistake. I really shoud've said Plated and related lizards.



> If they are going to quarantine and treat, why is there the discrimination against wc? Captive bred is better but it should be clear that it is not synonomous with parasite free animals....


Exactly right. 

Thanks for all of the comments Ed. And I'm gonna get a book from the library about the herps of the Amazon, or some other field guide to animals from the same region as darts.


----------



## SavannaZilla (Jan 19, 2011)

> But no Morelia, right?


I should specify. Morelia viridis was the species I was talking about.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Chondros would be out, in part due to the diet and in part that they are from an entirely different part of the world. 

The books on herps and field guides can be a good source but often some of the better informatiom on diet is in the papers or specific monographs. For example, Biology of Pit Vipers, is a great source of dietary data for that group of snakes.... 

Ed


----------



## SavannaZilla (Jan 19, 2011)

Alright, thanks Ed.


----------

