# fish in the water section



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I think this has been discussed here before but would rather not revive one of the old topics.

Being a fishkeeper I've been considerinng whether or not it is possible/reccomended to have fish in the water section. I've heard stories of people doing it. Of course you'd need a sizeable water section. Anyone with any personal experience? I'm assuming most fish will eat any dart tadpoles that happen to be deposited if they are there? The tadpoles seem plenty small enough for even the littlest fish and they probably do not have any toxicity. That might not be a problem if they choose other areas besides the big water section.

Specific species I've thought of using...
Poropanchax normani(Norman's lampeye). Very small fish...I hear Epiplatys annulatus worked for one person and these seem very similar.

Rivulus sp. They seem the most regionally correct. Also seem like they'd work but never kept them.

Aphyosemion splendopleure: A medium sized killifish.

Input of any sort appreciated.


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## sierraaquarium (Mar 4, 2006)

I would say to try dwarf pencil fish. I keep Nannostomus marginatus.
I've never done them in with frogs before, but I wouldn't see any problems with them. Size range is 1-2" for different species. I keep mine in with a breeding colony of cherry red shrimp in a planted tank and never had problems with them trying to eat the baby shrimp. They can't even eat brine shrimp without a struggle - good for tads but not good for feeding the fish varied foods


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Interesting SA

I've never seen N. marginatus around here(N. beckfordi comes in on the occasion). A LFS even had the coral red pencils but the price was prohibitive. I hear they are delicate fish, is that true in your experience? I've shied away from many tropicals due to temperature tolerance as it isn't unusual for water in our house to get down to 60 in the winter(admittantly in the tank propose for a paludarium the temp is higher...maybe 65 due to the CF lighting). I've had a few surprises like Fp. gardneri managing at 50 degrees, kribensis at 60, but I've heard many other fish cannot take these temps. Actually flunctuation might be another factor in non-heated tanks. Wuth the exception of 2 kinds of killies all of what I currently keep could be considered coldwater fish. 

Also, how big are dart tadpoles? I find it hard to believe they have trouble eating BBS! I watched a female Heterandria formosa consume a gammarus(about grain of rice size) once so I'd wonder if the pencils might give a bigger food item a try.


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## sierraaquarium (Mar 4, 2006)

With the ones I got, I ordered 15 hoping for a school of 8-9 in the end because I've heard the same things about delicacy, but I haven't had a single loss in the 2 months I've had them. 
I also meant that I was trying to feed adult brine, not baby brine. sorry if i confused you. they do love frozen bloodworms and wafers meant for the shrimp though.
Temps might be an issue, I haven't experimented with them in that regards. I keep this tank at 78-80.

One option might be sparkling gouarmi - Trichopsis pumila. I keep them in unheated tanks that hover in the 60's.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ditto, Trichopsis pumilus sounds like an excellent candidate to me too. Also readily available which is a plus. As for the killes I have the 3rd on hand already and could acquire the first(they show up at LFS and I know someone breeding them). 

Adult BBS makes much more sense for the pencils. I suspect P. normani probably can't eat them or really have to stuff them down. If you are going for a SA theme then pencils have the advantage of being from South America.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Basic deal with fish in tanks... you need to set up the pond section as you would a fish tank, with all fish tank rules applying. To have a small school of 1 inch pencil fish, you're looking at around a 5 gallon pond... and being able to filter and control the water quality of the pond, taking into account what will flow into the water from the land section. Think of it as a fish tank within the terrestrial tank...

AFter you've got that figured out, you have to take into account the frogs. Do you trust the frogs in a tank with water that deep? Are you looking to have the frogs deposit tads in the pond that the fish are in?

Something you want to think about... a major theory into they the PDFs developed such advanced perental care was so they could lay, care for eggs, and deposit tads in fish free (aka predator free) water. Even "harmless" fish we put in the ponds may discourage the frogs from depositing... if you don't pull their eggs to begin with, and still want fish and aren't afraid of the drowning aspect, set up another shallow water container for parents to deposit tads - but honestly I'd skip the fish in the frog tank and set up a seperate fish tank. I love having a fish tank next to a frog tank, its land and lake! I just don't recomend having them together... goes against their evolution, the deep water makes me way too nervous with such aggressive frogs, and its such a pain to take care of teh fish section when you have to work around the land section to get to it....


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Also I'd take into account that you need to make sure your fish are just as clean going into the tank as the frogs are... you'll have to quarentine them in seperate tanks as well and treat them as needed before introducing them (you'd need to age the tank for them anyways).


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Corey, as usual, you bring up some good points.


Considering water-volume and frog safety...
I hear if you are dealing with aggressive frogs such as tinctorius or whatnot where they will pin each other down deaths are most likely to happen in shallow water. In deeper water the frog on top would be unable to hold the other frog underwater for long. I don't plan on tinctorius if I go with darts, probably vittatus, leucomelas, or possibly auratus.

As for water, it isn't hard to get the water volume of 5 gallons. You can go ahead and include the water under your false bottom if you are concerned about bioload. In my 46 gallon tank based on calculations of the height of the tank I think if I have 3 inches of water that would be about 5 gallons. If you have plants growing(and also including any terrestrials who's roots penetrate into the water) the water quality will remain more stable. I have a few critter keepers with fish that are about 2 gallons(for Elassoma evergladei) and with lots of plants and a water change or two they are very stable. 

On tads...
If I could convince the darts to regularly deposit tads in the water section, I think I'd be willing to skip fish. If I want to see fish I could use move my eyes over a few inches to the left and have plenty . It'd be nice to have both but I realize that may not be possible. Do you suppose the parent frogs can figure out whether or not their are fish in the water section? 

Let me say before this paragraph I know very little about rainforests or how dartfrogs fit in them. I'd imagine even the small water bodies they use occasionally have fish in them(some parts of the rainforest flood and you also have those pesky killifish that can travel or short distance on land(Rivulus) or hatch from eggs(annuals)). If no fish, then almost certainly aquatic insects like dragonfly larvae. So while these smaller bodies of water may be safer I doubt the frogs always get home free unless they use bromelaids. Of course, in captivity you have to decide whether or not you are willing to sacrifice some, or maybe even all the tadpoles the parents deposit in the water section. 


I don't plan on buying any fish from the LFS and dumping them in without quarantine fish. Actually I haven't bought any fish from an LFS in a while, every fish under my care came in one way or another from another hobbyist. In short, I think that providing I take some precautions the fish should be just as clean as the frogs.

Thanks for the input! Much appreciated.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I hate to contradict some of what Corey said...but it is possible to have fish in less then a gallon of water and no filtration. I've used small feeder guppies, betas, and various tetras. My regular neons dont seem to last long....but the Black neons seem to do really well. Octalinuicus (or whatever) catfish do well also and stay small, eat alge. Also a gourami might work, since i think they are air breathers. Basically i've dumped groups of tetras into various tanks only to in a few months end up with a group of black neons while everything else died off at varying speeds.

Ofcourse this isnt really taking tads into consideration....but i think black neons and the oct catfish wouldnt bother them. A beta might even leave them alone. Bumble bee gobies might work too.

Most of my fish deaths in the main tank i keep fish in (which does hold around 7 gallons of water) have been due to letting water changes go to long then dumping in new water, completely clouding everything up and drastically changing the water conditions very quickly. Beta that was doing well died right after doin that.

Basically for a small water feature you need as many live plants in it as you can...and you need to top it off with new water fairly often due to evaporation, and also just to add fresh water and oxygen thru surface agitation. I tend to just do this when i mist. An airator can help too. Your just gonna have to experiment with fish, plants, and all that and find what works for you. Just dont over do it on the number of fish.

My newer tanks, allow for the water in the false bottom to mix with the waterfeature. Which i think is the way to go if possible. I just poke holes or leave small gaps in the wood/foam/whatever seperates the two, and then add gravel as a barrier. Allows the water to mix, provides more stable water quality, and allows your terrestrial plants to do some of the filtering, while providing more area for biological filtration.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Dwarf puffer fish do unbelievably well in the one vivarium I put them in. An amazing little fish with quite the personality. I have three of them in probably about 3-5 galons of water about 2-3'' deep. I never have to feed them anything, the water is teeming with everything they need plus springtails and what not. They are sectioned of to one part of the pond that is about 2ftx3''x0-3'' which goes from the front all the way to the back on the right side of the tank. The pond goes from The front left side to the back right (half moat). They are divided from the rest of the water by a protruding front portion (water level 3'' or so) almost in contact with the right pane, 1'' or less. The output of the pump is divided to two seperat falls, one middle left the other on the right. The left fall constantly pushes the plankton that grows from that pond slowly to the smaller fish pond. Completely self sustaining. Somewhat reflects the concept of a refugium in reef tanks, but inside and visually unobstructed and appealing.

I have no artificial filtering sytem the, some/most of the water gets directed under the drainage layer through the terra lite (Left to right).

I have never drained this tank and the water self cleared.

Also I am sure that if the puffers happen to see the occasional tad they wouldn't hesitate, This is why I made the decision to house them in the smaller portion. Ive seen them take down ghost shrimp 3-4 times their size. But then again nothing doesn't like ghost shrimp. Voracious, but you'd never suspect it by looking at them, plus they will sometimes form packs.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

yes dwarf puffers are cool....and very EVIL...and BLOODTHIRSTY


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Stchupa: Interesting...I would have never thought of dwarf puffers but they seem a bit risky as far as tadpole eating is concerned.

Dendrodave: I agree with what you have said for the most part. Interesting that neons don't seem very sturdy though. Lampeyes are about as mellow of fish as you can get. For anyone not familiar. Some of the fish listed I don't think I'd reccomend(bumblebee goby) as they are brackish water. Ideal fish IMO would be fish from similar habitats as the frogs.


http://www.aquarium-holgen.nl/Afbeeldin ... ormani.jpg
http://ciklid.se/albums/albums/Artbilde ... CN7185.jpg


I'd definetly like to hear back from Corey on this however.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Maybe this tidbit doesn't belong in this thread, but regarding frogs & fish, I've had great success with fire bellied toads housed with zebra danios. Both very hardy, active, aquatic, long lived. (Both Asian, too!  ) I breed neither, though. Just to fill out the possibilities...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Dave - I don't believe I said anything about needing a filter. Most of the tanks I'd had fish in didn't have a filter... I just said you need to follow the same rules as fish keeping - that doesn't always include a filter (*looks pointedly at 1 gallon fish bowl with betta in it... and no filter). I've had bettas (species and fancy splendens), guppies, and even a small loach in tanks before.

Yes, take the water that is not accessable to the fish into account when doing bioload... often in these tanks there is enough water and undergravel biological filtration, that unless you over stock your pond, you won't really need a power filter. But you also have to remember, the "gallon rules" also have another application - fish swim space. A betta, or other slow water fish like most of the smaller gouramis and guppies, don't need nearly as much swim space as something like a river occuring tetra or danio... the more active and zippy the fish, the more swim space they need. A single danio needs probibly 3x the swim space minimum than a betta twice its size does.

The other major fish rule I see broken is the schooling rule... schooling fish need a minimum of five fish! You might be able to stick a lone betta in your pond, but if you can't happily house 5 tetras in your pond without breaking some stocking rules, then don't put them in there! I've had serious problems keeping a school of neons in 10 gallons (way more gallons than I'd have in the tank with them able to swim in which is more like 8 gallons), much less in any smaller body of water... slow water or still water fish always have done much better for me (less space needs, love the filtration style, etc).

The pools used by PDFs are pools of water that in any other climate wouldn't last more than a day... I have a wonderful pic from a friend of a large leaf (~8") that's holding water... and an auratus tad. Its from Panama. You don't find fish going into these temp ponds.. they are mostly too small, not actually connected to another waterway, and in some cases highly seasonal (and no, I don't believe there are any killie type annual fish in these ponds, and if there are, these bodies of water are large enough they'd be passed over anyways). If the adults don'r realize there are fish (I believe they are hard wired to look for water with characteristics that would keep them unable to support fish) then the tadpoles would know... and refuse to get off their parents' back... in which the parent would move on to find another water source.

The only bug I really saw that would go for the same bodies of water are mosquitos... which also tend to become frog munchies. Bugs like Dragonflies need more open, permanant water sources. The only arthropod predators these guys really come across are the spiders in bromeliads... which is why frogs like pumilio prefer the smaller broms (good for us) because these broms are much less likely to house the predators.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

sorry i skimmed, at it seemed implied...but u never actuallys stated it outright


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

No prob, I've done the same thing before. And I definately know filters are not always used with fish lol, my bettas have always done worse with filters! Unless it was a large tank with a low water flow... but even then I think they loved the muck of unfiltered containers lol. Silly fish, just like most PDF tads, they like it dirty.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

what about neon tetras in a tank?

they stay small, i think only getting to an inch or an inch and a half long, and are pretty colerful.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Kerokero: Again, interesting stuff! But don't Phyllobates who transport large numbers of tadpoles at a time use larger bodies of water?(maybe roadpuddle sized...). Do the tadpoles get off at different spots one by one?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Neon tetras were the ones that always died on me, the cardinal ones also...but the blacks....they do really well usually.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yes, phyllobates do, and epipedobates had even larger clutches, the larger species having clutches up to 70ish. The larger species do best in greenhouses usually (only recent success with trivs in smaller tanks, a group in a 75 gal) with a "pond" up to the size of a kiddy pool in size. I saw a good number of these "depressions" in the rainforest during my travels in Costa Rica, and they were usually filled with treefrog tadpoles - no fish (these puddles can vary greatly in size depending on the season). The only "still water" I found fish in were next to streams. Just because there are a couple of gallons of water around doesn't mean the fish can get to it, and/or survive in it... these pools that the fish don't have access to are the ones the tropical frogs are taking advantage of... pooled water in a leaf, a depression that holds water... a tree stump that holds water... brazil nuts after they have been eaten by agouti... plant leaf axils...

Neons are stream fish that do best in some serious sized schools... like 30+. I think the cardinals fall into the same thing. They might come cheap at your local pet store, but you loose a lot of them, and they never seem to do well in the smaller tanks even if you got good fish - possibily too much variation in water due to the smaller tank size (less stable water qualities?). I've never kept the black neons, but having seen them in person, they seem built for slower water... which is why they'd probibly do better.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Anyone hear about the relatively recent discovery of a new species of canduru cat fish. Looks like a small red worm and lives in the soil most of the year. Cool stuff. It's been known of forever but just recently it was realized to be a fish and not a worm. How unobservant must we be as hole. Imagine all we've missed.


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## Danyal (Apr 15, 2006)

if you want fish i'd suggest male endlers, very bright and very tiny(about 1/4" full grown) they would probably live quite well off the micro fauna living in the pond and can be keep in resonably small ponds. what are the demensions of the pond going to be? endlers are the only fish i can think of that would be comfortable less than one gallon of water, and low ph wouldn't be a problem either as long as it didn't change quickly


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

only 1/4"? geese, i'd be worried about the tads eating them


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

1/4 an inch? I've heard they are pretty much indentical to wildtype guppies except for a few subtle differences such as color, behavior, probably DNA as they have recently been classified as a seperate species(Poecilia wingei). Maybe 1 and a fourth but not 1/4.

Heterandria formosa males less than an inch, and large females are about the size of the small feeder guppy females. I believe the males still hold the record as the smallest vertebrate in North America. That being said I've observed a large and hungry female take a gammarus shrimp.


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## sierraaquarium (Mar 4, 2006)

I wouldn't say that endlers are that small... about the size of any male guppy. But yeah, they would also be a good choice if you were to put anything in there.
Here's a pic of an assortment of mine (males and females, different color strains)


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## Danyal (Apr 15, 2006)

yep, those are what my two look like, i pulled out the trusty tape measure and i was wrong, they're about 1/2" from nose to tip of tail fin.


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