# LEDS or not



## TotalPetsPlus (Nov 15, 2011)

Are LEDS good for lighting in a vivarium? what would be the best lighting?


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

it really depends on your tank, setup, etc...

if you reference my recently made thread(s) on the subject of LEDs and lighting, they are NOT currently the way to go.


LED lights do *NOT* put out as full of a spectrum as MH or even T5HO bulbs and as such much be adjusted appropriately. If you are willing to put in the time, effort, and MONEY to build an appropriately working LED light, then in the long run you spend less on electricity....

but, LEDs are still very expensive....you can try checking out lightyourreptiles.com a site sponsor who has some LED screw-in bulbs you can check out those may be worthwhile. 

but I repeat, it really depends on your tank, setup, budget, etc...


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> it really depends on your tank, setup, etc...
> 
> if you reference my recently made thread(s) on the subject of LEDs and lighting, they are NOT currently the way to go.
> 
> ...


Why are they NOT they way to go when people are having wonderful results with them using half (or less) the electricity they were using before? Not to mention a fraction of the heat. They are growing plants beautifully in more than a few vivs on Dendroboard. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/74462-led-light-switch-over.html

You mention Metal Halide. I would be curious to know how you are managing to keep the temperatures down. It is very hard to keep dart frogs alive under metal halide. It is certainly NOT the lighting system of choice by ANY frogger that I have ever met or heard of.


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Why are they NOT they way to go when people are having wonderful results with them using half (or less) the electricity they were using before? Not to mention a fraction of the heat. They are growing plants beautifully in more than a few vivs on Dendroboard. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/74462-led-light-switch-over.html
> 
> You mention Metal Halide. I would be curious to know how you are managing to keep the temperatures down. It is very hard to keep dart frogs alive under metal halide. It is certainly NOT the lighting system of choice by ANY frogger that I have ever met or heard of.


There was no mention of any frogs... I personally keep a wide assortment of animals and plants, I don't see why you'd assume I was using MH with frogs...he asked about vivaria in general.

Just because some people are doing great with them does not mean it is the "way to go" for every single keeper. 

I was merely commenting on the light spectrum and luminosity. 

LEDs are more efficient, as I said as well....but the upfront costs, imho, are not worth it. If you consider a single screw-in bulb as "converting" to LED, perhaps it is...but if we are talking about getting high efficiency, high luminosity, full spectral lights for an affordable upfront price....LED is not exactly affordable.

I'm also generally talking about large enclosures (esp TALL) / plant growing in particular. 

As I said twice in my original post, it really depends on your setup. However, *overall* I'd say that it is not worth it due to the cost and the lack of available pre-made fixtures/setups for the layman. This will almost definitely change in the next 2-5 years.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> There was no mention of any frogs... I personally keep a wide assortment of animals and plants, I don't see why you'd assume I was using MH with frogs...he asked about vivaria in general.
> 
> Just because some people are doing great with them does not mean it is the "way to go" for every single keeper.
> 
> ...


There may be no mention of any frogs on this particular thread, but there are on his other threads. Besides the fact that this is a frog board so it is pretty much assumed. 
There was also no mention of esp TALL vivs so I'm not sure why you are assuming that. 
I just think you need to be careful about issuing a blanket statement that LEDs are no good. You did make the statement "on the subject of LEDs and lighting, they are NOT currently the way to go." 
I just want to point out that your thread barely touches on the subject and that it has been talked about a lot on here. You should really do more research before making a statement like that. In fact, Light your Reptiles has many affordable, easy to use packages for vivs. The temperature alone makes them excellent options for the froggers on the board. I don't see anybody else out there working towards LEDs specifically for our frog vivs so it does not do anybody any good to talk the latest systems down. You haven't tried them, so for all you know, the "next 2 to 5 years" could be here today.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

LEDs work great for me.

Having said that - i'm not sure they're ready for prime time for everyone.

For me - I was worried mainly about waste heat. I live in Tucson, AZ and you may have heard it gets a bit warm here.  I didn't want my Viv lights to contribute to the problem.

While it's a higher initial investment - the cost of running these lights is (supposedly) MUCH lower than other options we have. I'm in it for the long run so it's likely a good "investment" for me.

I'm very pleased with my lights - and the decision to pay more up front for what I needed. But not everyone can make the decision to go with "premium" lighting when there are other options that cost much less up front.

s


----------



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

EvilLost said:


> it really depends on your tank, setup, etc...
> 
> LED lights do *NOT* put out as full of a spectrum as MH or even T5HO bulbs and as such much be adjusted appropriately. If you are willing to put in the time, effort, and MONEY to build an appropriately working LED light, then in the long run you spend less on electricity....
> 
> ...


 The great thing is they do the job for the frog hobby. 
Plants grow great, including mosses (see my threads, one is referenced in this thread). Electricity cost are lower (pm me and ask me how dramatically mine decreased). Heat is lower, specifically overall in the frog room. My frogs do not behave any differently.

So yes there is an initial increase in cost. These do not degrade in their lighting output, nor have to be replaced like other lights. Not the way to go? My experience says otherwise!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jason


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I've been looking into these since checking out your thread, Jason. Thanks.


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> There may be no mention of any frogs on this particular thread, but there are on his other threads. Besides the fact that this is a frog board so it is pretty much assumed.
> 
> 
> haha i knew you would reply with "well this is a frog board so its assumed"... Not every thread on these boards is about frogs. and why does it matter what his OTHER threads are about? I havent read nor looked at those...
> ...


Again, nobody specifically asked about frogs in this thread. You seem really hung up on the fact that they are great for froggers...I don't disagree, in fact I quite agree. If you read my initial post, *I* mentioned that LightYourReptiles makes good screw-in etc LED lights.


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I have had excellent results with LED on my vivs, the main display is a 24"x24" cube that had 2 26x CFL 6500k lights and couldn't get the broms to color up. I added one 6500k 24w LED spot light and not only had excellent growth from all the plants it has also colored up the broms and Billbergia. One 24w spot did what 2 26w CFL couldn't in a year, the LEDs did it in matter of a few months. I also have a duo diode 24w spot with 4.5k and 6.5k over a 18x 24 Zoomed that is getting excellent color and growth....

I will be switching all of my vivs on the rack to LEDs over time. All I can say is they have worked great for me and I like the type of light they cast into the vivs with the shadows and rays of light. It looks more natural then the even dispersed light of CFLs or other fluorescents.


----------



## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> There may be no mention of any frogs on this particular thread, but there are on his other threads. Besides the fact that this is a frog board so it is pretty much assumed.
> There was also no mention of esp TALL vivs so I'm not sure why you are assuming that.
> I just think you need to be careful about issuing a blanket statement that LEDs are no good. You did make the statement "on the subject of LEDs and lighting, they are NOT currently the way to go."
> I just want to point out that your thread barely touches on the subject and that it has been talked about a lot on here. You should really do more research before making a statement like that. In fact, Light your Reptiles has many affordable, easy to use packages for vivs. The temperature alone makes them excellent options for the froggers on the board. I don't see anybody else out there working towards LEDs specifically for our frog vivs so it does not do anybody any good to talk the latest systems down. You haven't tried them, so for all you know, the "next 2 to 5 years" could be here today.


hehe...

"on the subject of LEDs and lighting, they are NOT currently the way to go."

I said pretty much the same thing to Scott (Mod) when he was taking about it about a year ago.... 

Now look! 

So ... in the ebb and flow of things, Scott was the catalyst that inspired me to find a lower cost LED Unit that all can use.

News Flash:
There will be more big leaps forward in all aspects of lighting for herp care this coming year. 
Word.

Cheers!
Todd
lightyourreptiles.com


----------



## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

Todd at light your reptiles is currently working on an LED that captures both the red & blue spectrum but has enough white for viewing. This is not an easy task and will take some time & money to develop; having said that plants seem to do fine with florescent bulbs that don't even begin to cover the correct spectrum, hence the current LED’s work equally as well or better. LED's are probably the future and maybe the present for those that can afford the initial investment, the light output is amazing and much brighter than what I'm able to achieve with even an 8500K T8. If plant growth is your goal HID lights are the trick. There is also single bulb high output LED’s that should be able to be used to bridge the spectrum gap, I have a red & blue one shining into my propagation tank which is lit by T8's hanging above it. This exo has a CF on the left and one of Todd's LED's on the right, you can see the differance.
Brian


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

BR5 said:


> Todd at light your reptiles is currently working on an LED that captures both the red & blue spectrum but has enough white for viewing.


this is why i havent converted over to LED yet fixtures need the correct wave length INCLUDING UV. at some point i plan on trading out all my lights, but currently fixtures are limited in sizes (i use 6' down to 20"), lumen values are too low imo and cost is still on the edge. i am anxiously awaiting the next steps in LED lighting, but getting all three of the factors mentioned above will take patience on all sides. I have worked with LEDs in automotive applications (brake lights and turn signals) for the past 7 years. i am impressed by the potential as wells as the "Moore's law" of LEDs. it will come to be that all lighting we use in the future will be LED. there are just some small things that need to be worked out and believe it or not heat is the #1 issue at the moment. 
Brian


----------



## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

They may be closer than you think. The technology is there. I say give LEDs a chance. Once they figure out the kinks, I bet you will see many affordable units pop up that offer all our plants and frogs growth needs. I am definitely anxious to see what Todd comes up with in regards to the new bulbs he is working on and hopefully I will be makin the switch soon  Any info on the type of diode you use Todd?

Josh


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

currently hes been using a lot of PLCC2s but i assume if hes in progress to retail something new he'll have to use a mix of diodes including maybe some rebel stars. the rebels are just a bit bigger than the PLCC2s but the out put is not even comparable. too bad heat is still an issue with these little guys

Josh, the current issue is there are NO uvb 280-315nm LEDs on the market. So R&D for a fixture with UVB is going to be difficult. demand im sure is high in the sun tan business for low power bill and how frequent bulbs are replaced that a LED diode is being developed. since its not out yet there is obviously an issue with finding the correct chemistry on the cathode and anode to provide the required nm numbers.

Todd, my question is are you finding another fixture to retail, or have you started actually manufacturing your own fixture through a factory youve contracted with?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> Again, nobody specifically asked about frogs in this thread. You seem really hung up on the fact that they are great for froggers...I don't disagree, in fact I quite agree. If you read my initial post, *I* mentioned that LightYourReptiles makes good screw-in etc LED lights.


I'm sorry that you're taking this so personally. It wasn't meant as an attack. It was meant to rebut your statements saying that LED lighting are not currently the way to go, and the implication that metal halides are a better choice. Metal halides may, in fact, be a better choice for many applications. But not for this one. Have a good day.


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

> Josh, the current issue is there are NO uvb 280-315nm LEDs on the market.


There are LEDs on the market that emit wavelengths in the UVB range, the problem is they are a bit expensive and in all probability not applicaple in this line of products...So the problem isn't that they are not out there just designed for a small specific purpose.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Azurel said:


> There are LEDs on the market that emit wavelengths in the UVB range, the problem is they are a bit expensive and in all probability not applicaple in this line of products...So the problem isn't that they are not out there just designed for a small specific purpose.


ive read the quote "UV LEDs in this range are now available and coming down in price" but in reality ive never seen these available through my manufactures. where have you seen them for sale?


----------



## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

I know the UV used in sterilizers won't penetrate glass hence the use of quartz tubes. Is the UV spectrum our frogs need capable of going through glass?
Brian


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Azurel said:


> There are LEDs on the market that emit wavelengths in the UVB range, the problem is they are a bit expensive and in all probability not applicaple in this line of products...So the problem isn't that they are not out there just designed for a small specific purpose.


That would be pretty sweet. How about a single UVB emitting LED that could be simply placed into the same 5/8" size hole that we drill for our misters? That could eliminate the problems associated with getting the proper glass or plexi required for UVB penetration. It could be simply added in regardless of any existing lighting system.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

BR5 said:


> I know the UV used in sterilizers won't penetrate glass hence the use of quartz tubes. Is the UV spectrum our frogs need capable of going through glass?
> Brian


sterilizers use UVC if i remember correctly? and no UVB does not travel trough standard aquarium glass. special materials must be procured unless a device is done as described by doug below.



Pumilo said:


> That would be pretty sweet. How about a single UVB emitting LED that could be simply placed into the same 5/8" size hole that we drill for our misters? That could eliminate the problems associated with getting the proper glass or plexi required for UVB penetration. It could be simply added in regardless of any existing lighting system.



doug, yeah that would work, it depends on the led though? if it was a simple 5mm then there wouldnt be any heat involved and the lens is water proof and it would be ok.(problem is view angle is pretty narrow with these). 

if i saw a spec or even a pic of a uvb led id have an idea if i was possible?


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Here is the link of the company....

SETi | UV Light Sources | Sensor Electronic Technology, Inc

Not sure how viable they would be though.....From what it looks like on the website you can choose the specific spectrum that the LED emits but they look very specific in their application....Unless I have misunderstood what they have posted.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

wow good find! ill look at these for a bit and report back!


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

motydesign said:


> ...if it was a simple 5mm then there wouldnt be any heat involved and the lens is water proof and it would be ok.(problem is view angle is pretty narrow with these)..


That might be optimum. I understand there is a danger to overexposure to UVB and people who have had the most success with incorporating it use it in only part of the tank for a short period of time per day, and the frogs seem to self regulate their basking in it. One LED's worth of UVB light in a very narrow area, but all day, might be the ticket. Of course that would depend on what the actual intensity and the actual area covered was.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

lots has been learned!


----------



## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

My orchid-only viv will be using Lightyourreptiles LEDs. Aquarists, espcially marine, have accepted them for their corals. Granted it, the spectrums are different and yadda yadda but I strongly feel they are worth a try and will most certaintly make T5HO's taboo in a decade.


----------



## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

good link on the uv b leds. it would be nice to get some in the 300 range to try out. everyone needs to remember though that exposure to that wavelenght is carcinogenic. and definately avoid the uvc leds as they are worse, ie. more likely to cause melanoma.


----------



## TotalPetsPlus (Nov 15, 2011)

what would be the leds to get? what lumens and colors 6500k? I made one for my reef tank with 108 3 watt cree xpg and xpe leds. I guess I will do a little more research and build my own led lighting system. Thank you for all the good information. I am fairly new to the frog hobby so forgive the questions if they seem out of line.


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

TotalPetsPlus said:


> what would be the leds to get? what lumens and colors 6500k? I made one for my reef tank with 108 3 watt cree xpg and xpe leds. I guess I will do a little more research and build my own led lighting system. Thank you for all the good information. I am fairly new to the frog hobby so forgive the questions if they seem out of line.


Questions are how we learn M8....No apologies or forgiveness needed...


----------



## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

All these LEDs developments are great. 

How far is the industry in developing a LED cluster, computer driven in order to imitate the different color temperatures during the day? From a bluish moonlight to the warm glow of sunrise to the cool noon back to the warmth of sunset? May be even a complete 28 day moon cycle? Thunder storms and rain, coupled with a mist king?

I understand this is a bit much, but no harm in wishing...


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

Those UV LEDs are very interesting indeed....


....and extremely desireable for chameleons....


----------



## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

wimvanvelzen said:


> all these leds developments are great.
> 
> How far is the industry in developing a led cluster, computer driven in order to imitate the different color temperatures during the day? From a bluish moonlight to the warm glow of sunrise to the cool noon back to the warmth of sunset? May be even a complete 28 day moon cycle? Thunder storms and rain, coupled with a mist king?
> 
> I understand this is a bit much, but no harm in wishing...


 i love that!


----------



## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

*Uv leds*



EvilLost said:


> Those UV LEDs are very interesting indeed....
> 
> 
> ....and extremely desireable for chameleons....


These UV LEDs will be the cat's meow... someday.

But the Thing is... Because of the different fwd & reverse voltage requirements of different colored LEDs, when you start clustering them off one Driver, ... it gets "hinky"
And some LEds in the array do not perform at optimum levels.
I know this first hand. 

Yours truly eek is having problems with that as we speak.

I had full spectral analysis done last month on a few prototypes by the leading herp lighting expert.
The prototypes were just "eh". 
So, undaunted, its back to the drawing board for more prototypes.
Franlkly - I (WE) need a BROADER BAND smd 5050 UV a LED. And a broad band UV b LED in 5050 smd form that cuts off at 295 nm.

On another interesting note, I just had a long phone conversation with one of the countrys leading full spectrum lighting purveyers last night.
One who is a direct a protege' of Dr. Ott. (the developer of the world famous Vita-Lite)
We decided to look take at using the same LED factory so our efforts in that area can be done "in sync".

Yep. This is going to be a Great New Year.
Cheers!
Todd


( BTW  I am Very thankful for all the LYR.com customers. That allows some spare funds for R&D. Very Thankful. Sincerely, TG. )


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

*Re: Uv leds*

todd, you seem to be working your leds in a configuration of series and parallel on the same driver. this explains your issues. design your board so that each color of led is driven from its own source. this will allow max output from each group. i see some nice RGB in there, but are you using RGB leds or just single colors to try and pick up those nm?


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

*Re: Uv leds*



motydesign said:


> todd, you seem to be working your leds in a configuration of series and parallel on the same driver. this explains your issues. design your board so that each color of led is driven from its own source. this will allow max output from each group. i see some nice RGB in there, but are you using RGB leds or just single colors to try and pick up those nm?


In working on my wiring yesterday, I ran into the same problem. However, I disagree on your solution of using independent drivers for each color.


I have 24 White Cree LEDS that run at 1.5A max, CREE XP-G R5 Cool White 3W LED on Star. I want to run these ~1A.

I also have TWO, just 2, RED LEDs (trying to supplment my red spectrum, but I'm still wary as to how this will affect things aesthetically...should be done with wiring by tonight so we'll see). Osram 660nm 3W Red LED 

The problem is, as you mentioned, that the RED LEDs have a max operating power of 1A and will fry if I run them this high permanently. And I have no intention of running a separate driver for only 2 LEDs.



Now, I am relatively new to electronics, but I do know physics....please correct any mistakes, its been a few years since college 


Across parallel = voltage is constant; across series = current is constant...therefore...

I am wiring up my LEDs in the following configuration to be able to use the 2 red simultaenously with my cool white across the same driver without frying out my red LEDs...


Driver has 48V set at 1A max total output. There will be 12 LEDs (11 white @1A, 1 red @750mA) per driver.



Solution 1: Wire the first 11 in series like normal but split the very last LED circuit in parallel and run the driver at 1A. ONLY split for the red led circuit, NOT the entire circuit!

This SHOULD mean that the voltage drop across the parallel split circuit should be ~4V (48V / 12 circuits in the series = 4V). In series current is constant so our entry current should be ~1A. 

Now, my goal is to drop the power to 750mA for the red LED. Since I am splitting the circuit into parallel, and my entry line is 1A, I should get 0.5A on each of the parallel lines, right? 

So, in order to create the proper 3:1 ratio rather than an even 1:1 ratio, I was simply going to place a resistor with 3x the resistance of the RED LED on one line (and the red led on the other). Now, granted I don't know the resistance of the LED, but with a little testing I'm sure I can find this out.

This *SHOULD* split the current in a 3:1 (0.75A to red, 0.25A to the "empty" resisted side) ratio for just the RED circuit, while keeping the current 1A for all my white LEDs....


Right? 

My concern here is that the LEDs have a varying thermal resistivity and if so, it will be impossible to use a static resistor to achieve this result (to a professional degree). However, I have also heard that "varying resistance" resistors also exist that keep the output consistent? I don't know anything about these tho.....but a friend showed me something that would output 5V regardless of the input voltage....was thinking something like that (i have no idea what it is called)



Here is a crappy drawing:
||*we should have 4V and 1A entering our split*
\/
****1A*******************************|--RED LED--|
48V driver --- LED 1 --- LED 2 -....- LED 11 -----|*********|--- to driver
*************************************|---Resistor--|

ignore the *, the forum was just erasing my spacing

EDIT: I initially thought of just putting a resistor right before the red LED, however since the entire circuit is in series this would cause a current drop across the entire circuit. 

Solution 2: Just turn down the power a bit. This is not really a solution since ALL my white lights are now dimmer just to keep the 2 red from burning out...and obviously not a viable option for anything "professional" grade.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

*Re: Uv leds*

i understand the financial burden of driving 2 leds, however thats the correct way to do it.
however the system looks ok as long as you take those red leds out


----------



## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm just a newbie without much experience but I have had much better growth and color with the led screw ins from light your reptiles than I have with CFL's. The worst thing i can say about them is that the CFL's offer more heat for my geckos (some like a little heat and we have screen tops so the heat situation is different).


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Wait is your drawing showing those in parallel?
I know you stated the theory was series, but the drawing kind of look like it was parallel.


----------



## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

Just run 2 reds parallel in series with the rest of string, and the 2 reds will get .5amp and should draw bout 4volts.


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

motydesign said:


> Wait is your drawing showing those in parallel?
> I know you stated the theory was series, but the drawing kind of look like it was parallel.


yes, that is what i said (and i think bobrez is saying too)

I power the driver in SERIES with 12 "nodes" (i'm teaching myself all this i dont know the proper terminology i'm sorry)

the first 11 nodes are White LEDS in standard series drawing 4V, 1A each

the 12th node is actually a parallel split with a resistor on one side and a red LED on the other. *only the 12th node is parallel* NOT the entire circuit.

(what is the proper term for what I am calling a "node"?)

@bobrez: I have considered your idea but I feel that is the "easy way" out and not the proper solution for 2 reasons. 1) I have 2 daylight drivers and wish to balance my light, so 1 red led per driver) and more importantly 2) in doing it that way I am limited to .5A on each red led, but I want to run them at 0.75A. There are other reasons for this....I have simulated sunrise/sunset and if my red is already at 66% dim when i'm at 100% power....its going to be really weak during these times (when i actually want it the strongest)

@motydesign: perhaps you were joking, but why did you say that I should take the red LEDs out? I ask in all seriousness...visual/aesthetics, power mismatch, spectrum mismatch, etc? 


On a side note, is there such a thing as a "digital self-timed relay switch" ? again my terminology is fail i'm trying to describe it as best as I can....
my plan C was to wire up the red LEDs onto my moonlight driver (my 3rd driver, constant current @ 700mA; currently only powering 4 blue LEDs for nightime simulation). I was hoping to wire the circuit such that i could put a self-timed switch...if the time is between say 7am-7pm have the red LEDs complete the circuit, if its 7pm-7am have the switch flip and the blue LEDs complete the circuit.

Does such a thing exist? I have not found it and don't imagine that it does, at least not without using multiple components together...but I also don't know what terms to search for


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

wimvanvelzen said:


> All these LEDs developments are great.
> 
> How far is the industry in developing a LED cluster, computer driven in order to imitate the different color temperatures during the day? From a bluish moonlight to the warm glow of sunrise to the cool noon back to the warmth of sunset? May be even a complete 28 day moon cycle? Thunder storms and rain, coupled with a mist king?
> 
> I understand this is a bit much, but no harm in wishing...


You mean something like this?

Radion ™ | EcoTech Marine

Yeah, at somewhere between $700 and $800 USD, they are expensive, but this is the first generation tech for stuff like this. I predict in 10-15 years this kind of thing will be almost standard and you'll be able to pick it up much more reasonably priced. 

Ecotech already has software that couples their lighting systems and pump systems. It would be simply a matter of coupling the mist king technology/timers to work in sync with the lighting to create flashing lighting effects, etc...

Now you want to really go nuts, lets have systems that can emulate on a year long basis changes in seasons, atmospheric pressures, etc..!


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

oh i was meaning remove the red and drive it seperatly 

and the 
"digital self-timed relay switch" speak of is a VERY simple........... ready for this 555 timer  
or easy way would be one of these for $13 a digital programmable timer with a DC power supply.
Shop Westek Digital Programmable Timer at Lowes.com


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> atmospheric pressures!


NOW THAT WOULD BE AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!! this would require vivs or the room to be air proof


----------



## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

Quick pic of moonlight 3 cree XPE 2 blue, 1 royal @.5amp. Its a little bright think I might change to run at .350. No other light in room and its bright, picture is good representation


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Why 
Everyone is all about this moon light stuff ... These bright LEDs can disrupt sleep cycles


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm curious about the use of moonights with vivs. I understand well their applications for reef tanks, but as far as vivariums are concerned I don't know what benifits they may or may not have.


----------



## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

It is way too bright, I only turn it on too look in there. I bet I can grow plants with it


----------



## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

Air pressure would be awesome, but not really workable outside pricey lab conditions (and even there?). 

Last days we have had quite stormy weather and the H. azureiventris are calling like mad - which they normally don't do in Winters. Temperature is just above 20 Celcius in the tank right now...


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

bobrez said:


> Quick pic of moonlight 3 cree XPE 2 blue, 1 royal @.5amp. Its a little bright think I might change to run at .350. No other light in room and its bright, picture is good representation


what is the size of your tank? 

I have the same LEDs for my moonlight (well, i have 3 royal blue and 1 regular, but anyway) ...I'm running them on a .7A constant driver and was intending to leave it at that.


From your picture though...that is WAY too bright! I want a *VERY* faint blue light, the only reason I'm using 4 LEDs is for light distribution, not luminosity. 

Tho its pretty hard to tell your tank size from the pic


EDIT: 

@ZookeeperDoug: Personally, I like to use them on "display" tanks but I don't believe/know of any benefits to the animals. I don't use them on any of my other "regular" tanks though


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

motydesign said:


> oh i was meaning remove the red and drive it seperatly
> 
> and the
> "digital self-timed relay switch" speak of is a VERY simple........... ready for this 555 timer
> ...


Thanks for the link, but this isn't what I meant.

What I am looking for is a CHEAP simple controller that can be given an "on" time and an "off" time and it outputs an on/off signal at that time. I am literally looking for JUST the controller basically...

its kinda complicated and i've been studying plumbing nonstop the past 3 days..so perhaps its best I make a thread about it separately


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

The more i look at it the more i feel you are trying to design a fixture for retail, not one for personal use. 

that being said there is NO reason to reinvent the wheel. buy one of these, and disassemble the fixture to get to the part inside. once you get that part, find a part number on the board. look it up and contact the manufacturer. purchase your MOQ and go from there. 
http://www.aquatraders.com/36-inch-3x39W-T5-Aquarium-Light-Fixture-p/52314p.htm


----------



## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

motydesign said:


> oh i was meaning remove the red and drive it seperatly
> 
> [/url]


Hi Moty, thanks for any ideas.
very little room in that pre made existing housing config to add extra driver.

I have a few designs that are evolving. we shall see what gels.

Thank you!
Todd


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Todd are yours requiring a driver or just resistors? its hard to see, but only looked like they were 5mm leds, of course taking a picture of a bright light never shows what you want hahaha


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

motydesign said:


> The more i look at it the more i feel you are trying to design a fixture for retail, not one for personal use.
> 
> that being said there is NO reason to reinvent the wheel. buy one of these, and disassemble the fixture to get to the part inside. once you get that part, find a part number on the board. look it up and contact the manufacturer. purchase your MOQ and go from there.
> Odyssea T5 Aquarium Lighting



if you are referring to me, no i'm not looking to build a retail fixture....but when I focus on learning something I like to actually learn it inside and out. I don't need a face-unit or anything like that...i'm talking about literally just a chip that can be programmed via computer and put in to control the valve.

someone actually pointed me in the right direction in my other thread towards using an Arduino board with a programmed microcontroller....that SEEMS to be what I am looking for


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Yeah I think your going in a direction I don't have much interest in, good luck on your controls. I'll def be watching and hope to learn something from your build


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

I will definitely make an indepth build log as soon as I'm finished actually building


----------



## TotalPetsPlus (Nov 15, 2011)

would i just be able to use the same leds for my reef tank
3watt crees
xpe royal blue
xpe blue
xpe red
xpe cool white 10k
xpg cool whites 5600k


----------



## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

TotalPetsPlus said:


> would i just be able to use the same leds for my reef tank
> 3watt crees
> xpe royal blue
> xpe blue
> ...


Yes, but you are rather out on your own w/ trying to figure out the type and number of emitters required to get the required spectrum and intensity -at least w/ reef tanks there's guidance available from those that've gone boldly.


----------



## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

hey totalpetsplus, unfortunately you would not. i know they are very expensive fixtures, but that much blue definitely wouldn't be the best for a vivarium. if you used the 10000k and 6500k ones, maybe shut off the blues, it would work.


----------



## andyl (Jan 4, 2012)

You won't want as much blue, you'd probably be good with just mixes of 5000-6500k's would be good... might want to throw some straight reds in there too, as a dawn/dusk effect - or as a supplement...


----------



## TotalPetsPlus (Nov 15, 2011)

I can get the leds for a decent price so i may try to make a fixture and see it it will grow.


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> That would be pretty sweet. How about a single UVB emitting LED that could be simply placed into the same 5/8" size hole that we drill for our misters? That could eliminate the problems associated with getting the proper glass or plexi required for UVB penetration. It could be simply added in regardless of any existing lighting system.


Unfortunately this is not possible. The only UV LEDS I have found are the ones that were linked in this thread and those are confined to a 10-15nm spread. 

I have actually been working on designing a proper spread using a mix of those UV LEDs just for fun....I haven't spent too much time on it yet, but from an initial review, the costs are nowhere near affordable.

Firstly, we'd need multiple LEDs to fill out our spectrum; and secondly we'd need to vary their powers with appropriate relativity... and even then (from a rough mental estimate) we would be looking at roughly a 1.2" effectiveness from the light source compared to the 6-12" provided by the reptiglo 5.0....unless we used multiple of each wavelength LED (which would only further drive the cost up). I have yet to find a way to use a single or at least a few LEDs and somehow amplify their intensity; I don't believe it is physically possible, but I'm still looking into it just incase


but since the only source of UV LEDs i've seen is the one linked in this thread, and the LEDs cost $250++ each (unless we can order on the order of hundreds of thousands...) its simply not affordable. Unless someone can buy them on order of hundreds of thousands of chips...


I'm sure in the future someone will create a spectrum-controlled UV chip....but for now the best (at least that I"ve seen) are tight-spectrum LEDs that we would have to combine and calculate appropriate relative powers....but I have to admit that thus far its been a fun project 


@TotalPetsPlus:
I agree with the others on here....from my reading most reef aquarists use a 2:1 blue/white ratio for a color temp closer to 10-15K

for a viv you want to aim around 6500. part of it is personal preference, however it is important to note that plants above the waterline use the red-wavelengths of the spectrum for photosynthesis far more than plants below the waterline do (which is why we need less blues and more reds).


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

EvilLost said:


> Unfortunately this is not possible. The only UV LEDS I have found are the ones that were linked in this thread and those are confined to a 10-15nm spread.
> 
> I have actually been working on designing a proper spread using a mix of those UV LEDs just for fun....I haven't spent too much time on it yet, but from an initial review, the costs are nowhere near affordable.
> 
> Firstly, we'd need multiple LEDs to fill out our spectrum; and secondly we'd need to vary their powers with appropriate relativity... and even then (from a rough mental estimate) we would be looking at roughly a 1.2" effectiveness from the light source compared to the 6-12" provided by the reptiglo 5.0....unless we used multiple of each wavelength LED (which would only further drive the cost up). I have yet to find a way to use a single or at least a few LEDs and somehow amplify their intensity; I don't believe it is physically possible, but I'm still looking into it just incase


You may want to read on what the uv does and whats required. This statement has huge flaws


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You don't necessarily need the UV over the entire viv. In fact, this would make it difficult for your frogs to control how much they need. A limited spread may prove to be ideal as they can come and bask for however long they need.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Doug, the full spread over the viv is acceptable as the frog will avoid the uv and insure it is not over exposed. This is why if using uv its important to have adaquate hides. Plants on the other hand aren't happy with either of these methods.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Gotcha....


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It seems like it would make for shyer frogs though. If you put constant UV over the entire viv then they could only come out to bask. Once the had enough exposure, they would pretty much be forced into their hides. If a "spotlight" UV proves feasible, they could just avoid that spot once they had enough exposure.


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

motydesign said:


> You may want to read on what the uv does and whats required. This statement has huge flaws


want to clarify my mistakes? telling me to "read more" does not say a whole lot...


I know what UV does and I know what is (generally) required. What part of my statement had flaws exactly?


As for the whole tank vs spotlight issue, it would be species dependent.....I'm not looking to make this "for" frogs. If anything it would be "for" chameleons, but honestly once the base design is there modifying it for other species will not be hard....it will be far more difficult finding the scientific data to confirm the appropriate spectra per species


@Pumilo: changing between focused and wide angle lens would be very easy to do anyway its not too big of a design issue. I believe your analysis of a wide angle UV spread on the frog behavior is likely correct


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

you were trying to reproduce the full UVB spectrum. you only need 295nm which is the most efficient nm for transformation of 7-dehydrocholesterol to preD3. other than that there is no need for the other nms that i have read. your estimate is completely off on effective distance from light source. the led is capable of like 5 to 9 times the power of any UVB lamp ive read (led capable of 300-500uW/cm2). the led is adjustable through the output voltage of the power source ( a meter would be required for any UV application imo so that one knows out put and isnt going of a "mental estimate" since we are incapable of seeing the wave length). the idea of converting to preD3 from what ive read is similar in all the animals so same wavelength is used for chams, frogs, dog, and moms. the only thing that you need to know is dosage/exposure.

the idea of dosing a whole tank does NOT mean ALL day, you will fry all your plants. it would be a timed event mostly likely mid day. or even early morning since my pumilios are more active in the morning. if the idea of dosing a full tank really is a problem then they have different view angles that one can choose which would help with taller tanks. 

any way i feel that you are compiling a lot of controls into a viv and complicating things greatly. i think that once i see more realization to the project i will be more excited but at this time i dont see any of the parts coming together and functioning. UVB is not something to take lightly and i feel a full understanding of it is required before investing the money that is required to actually implement it correctly.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

EvilLost said:


> As for the whole tank vs spotlight issue, it would be species dependent.....I'm not looking to make this "for" frogs. If anything it would be "for" chameleons, but honestly once the base design is there modifying it for other species will not be hard....it will be far more difficult finding the scientific data to confirm the appropriate spectra per species


The spectra required is highly conserved among species (in fact there isn't any data available to think otherwise). The thing that changes among species which is related to thier niche in the wild is the amount of exposure needed. Subcanopy/shade dwelling species require far far less exposure to UVB to convert the same amount as heliophilic species. 

Even with respect to chameleons, you do not want to have them exposed 
constantly to the UVB since that not only results in risks to the animals (UVB damage to the eyes and skin), but violates thier natural behaviors. It is well established that at least some chameleons modify thier basking behavior to optimize UVB exposure (independent of basking for heat), if the whole cage was exposed to UVB, this would result in the chameleon potentially trying to escape the excess exposure.... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

motydesign said:


> \
> the idea of dosing a whole tank does NOT mean ALL day, you will fry all your plants. it would be a timed event mostly likely mid day. or even early morning since my pumilios are more active in the morning.


There are studies that demonstrate that O. pumilio has a period of inactivity when UVB exposure would be the greatest... they are active in the morning and the late afternoon... 

Ed


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Ed, so im curious now, i have read the behavioral studies and saw that. now do you think that they hold same in captive situations due to temp rather than UV, or is it a carried over behavior? sorry i dont know the scientific term for it but (genetic behvior).

if the mid day timed uv exposure method was used, do you feel you would see more activity then since they are coming out to bask?


----------



## andyl (Jan 4, 2012)

Just started digesting ed's article, but curious why the focus is on that really low side of the UVB spectrum... While the less expensive UVB LEDs typically have peaks in the 310 range - if you check the datasheet, they do have measurable output in the 280s... Does one really need a 280nm peak at 220$/emitter - when you could use a small array with a cost of <50$ and still get the overall coverage? It would be a little less efficient, but the results would be the same


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

motydesign said:


> Ed, so im curious now, i have read the behavioral studies and saw that. now do you think that they hold same in captive situations due to temp rather than UV, or is it a carried over behavior? sorry i dont know the scientific term for it but (genetic behvior).
> 
> if the mid day timed uv exposure method was used, do you feel you would see more activity then since they are coming out to bask?


I'm in the process of setting up a 90 cube with UVB availability and I'm going to scale it up during the day.. but I have to say that I would expect to see a decrease in activity at noon...I have strong doubts that higher temperature is the prime cause.. The activity declines when UVB exposure peaks and resumes when the peak declines.... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

andyl said:


> Just started digesting ed's article, but curious why the focus is on that really low side of the UVB spectrum... While the less expensive UVB LEDs typically have peaks in the 310 range - if you check the datasheet, they do have measurable output in the 280s... Does one really need a 280nm peak at 220$/emitter - when you could use a small array with a cost of <50$ and still get the overall coverage? It would be a little less efficient, but the results would be the same


The ability to convert the pre to pro to D3 falls off fairly quickly above and below the optimal peak of 296 nm (if my memory is working off hand) so the efficiency declines rapidly... Which brings us to the question, do you have a link for the exact spectrum? 

Ed


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

Ed said:


> I'm in the process of setting up a 90 cube with UVB availability and I'm going to scale it up during the day.. but I have to say that I would expect to see a decrease in activity at noon...I have strong doubts that higher temperature is the prime cause.. The activity declines when UVB exposure peaks and resumes when the peak declines....
> 
> Ed


ed, i understand the thought. and this is why i was curious if time,temp, or most liekly UVB. i understand in the wild the UV peaks around noon. but in a captive tank it peaks when we tell it to. so that was why i asked if the period of low activity could be altered depending on uv not time. 

but then i answer my own question of when i would use it in MY viv. i would mimic natural patterns. 

the question above that is one i guess i can easly find out for myself if i just laid the cash down. which once i finish building i will. Meter first, then UV devices.


----------



## andyl (Jan 4, 2012)

Let me see if can find it again, some of the better leds had dataheets with the spectral graph, gotta kick the tadpole off the laptop (easier said than done), its too much of a pita on this tablet


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

motydesign said:


> you were trying to reproduce the full UVB spectrum. you only need 295nm which is the most efficient nm for transformation of 7-dehydrocholesterol to preD3. This is why I am seeking data on this point. I don't "KNOW" that I only need 295nm. I would really, really like to believe that this single spectrum will suffice as that would DRASTICALLY drop production costs and make design infinitely easier as I would be completely avoiding a variable-controlled LED array.....but I just have a really hard time believing that the other wavelengths are "useless". On the other hand, with only this wavelength to consider, creating a real prototype would be affordable....
> 
> other than that there is no need for the other nms that i have read. your estimate is completely off on effective distance from light source.the led is capable of like 5 to 9 times the power of any UVB lamp ive read (led capable of 300-500uW/cm2).
> 
> ...


You are assuming that I lack understanding of UV, optics, etc...

As for the viv controls, these are two separate projects. The viv controller is something I wish to try after I finish primary construction of my current build as a learning experiment.....whereas this is more just a theoretical design problem...but if I do come up with a finished, working design, there just might be some value to it....who knows, but eitherway its fun 



@ED: I linked the 285nm spec sheet above, but here is the 295nm+/- 15nm spread: http://www.s-et.com/spec-sheets/295nm.pdf 

Are there any other wavelengths that can be useful? If I understand you right, you are saying that 296nm is the primary D3 production wavelenght...but what about other "uses" of UV?

I'd be interested to hear the results of your experiment as well.


EDIT: My earlier calculation did have some mistakes but I believe my above calculation is correct.


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

spend some time on here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html

yes i slipped up in typing V vs A on the power supply (sorry for the typo)

i spoke with an engineer at S-et and he said the micro watt was a micro watt/cm2 , i know the data sheets state uW but i asked specifically so maybe he mis quoted, but i took my info from the engineer that i spoke with. 

good luck on the project and let us know how it goes.


----------



## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'm in the process of setting up a 90 cube with UVB availability and I'm going to scale it up during the day.. but I have to say that I would expect to see a decrease in activity at noon...I have strong doubts that higher temperature is the prime cause.. The activity declines when UVB exposure peaks and resumes when the peak declines....
> 
> Ed


Ed, 
I have noticed similar with my variabilis.. and they are not obligates either. 
We should compare notes soon.

Also Ed...
I must say that I happy you have picked up this ball on this to run with.
As we both know, this is the way forward in Dart care.
And quite frankly, the Europeans are way ahead of us in so many areas of Dart and herp care in general, including lighting.

I have found in my communities...
the dominant frogs are the ones to come out more in Mid Day "sun" and soak up the rays ..(@ approx. 35-38 _u_w/cm2 ). while the passive ones 
recede more to the sidelines.
When the light levels start to go back down towards "dusk" ... as programmed in with multiple state of the art 4.99 light timers...
The younger frogs and more recessive ones will come out everywhere.
While the dominants will head back and stay in their respective "claimed" broms they each have.

And the fact that you are doing adjusted lighting levels throughout the day... well that just give me chills. 

Keep up the fantastic work.

OH, btw, I have seen my frogs 
"bask" with tads on their backs while transporting.

Cheers!
Todd


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

> the idea of converting to preD3 from what ive read is similar in all the animals so same wavelength is used for chams, frogs, dog, and moms. the only thing that you need to know is dosage/exposure.
> Can you cite something on this source? I have a hard time believing that EVERYONE uses UV for the same thing....D3 might be the same, but what about other needs/uses?....I don't know what the result is yet, but I believe that by changing the amplitude of the wavelength I may be able to control absorption rates...would really like to find a study on this one (who the heck would have done such a study lol...)


 

Actually there are a wide number of studies that indicate that in fact they use the same UVB spectra.. The reason for this is due to the chemistry of the provitamin D3 to previtamin D3 to D3, (see for example http://www.pnas.org/content/92/8/3124.full.pdf) is the same across multiple taxa, whether it is a reptile, or frog or a primate. It is very highly conserved. This reaction doesn't occur unless there is the proper wavelengths... The full spectrum that shows activity in herps is 290-315 nm with a peak around 295-296 nm and a rapid fall off on both sides of the peaks. One of the feed back mechanisms thats prevents overconversion of pro-pre-D3 is the conversion of the pro vitamin D3 to a couple of sterols and conversion back at higher wavelengths (around 340-400 nm) but you need the lower wavelenghts to allow for the conversion in the first place. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

@Ed: I believe you on the D3 conversion; what I was trying to ask was if there are any OTHER uses of the UV spectrum (for either herps, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, everyone, whatever)? 


@motydesign: I will contact s-et and inquire further about the 1.2microW power output; however if the engineer said that it is in microW/cm2 then I would guess that he was referring to the surface area of the UV led, which I assumed was 1cm2. I'll get back to you on those numbers


----------



## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

EvilLost said:


> @Ed: I believe you on the D3 conversion; what I was trying to ask was if there are any OTHER uses of the UV spectrum (for either herps, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, everyone, whatever)?
> 
> 
> @motydesign: I will contact s-et and inquire further about the 1.2microW power output; however if the engineer said that it is in microW/cm2 then I would guess that he was referring to the surface area of the UV led, which I assumed was 1cm2. I'll get back to you on those numbers


yeah let me know, cause that would throw things way off if he misquoted something. so i assume you had to go through deeann


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

EvilLost said:


> @Ed: I believe you on the D3 conversion; what I was trying to ask was if there are any OTHER uses of the UV spectrum (for either herps, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, everyone, whatever)?


With dendrobatids, there is data that indicates that they don't really see into the UVA/UVB spectra (although they may be detecting UVB through the pineal eye and/or modifying behavior via circulating metabolites). However in other taxa (such as birds and lizards) UVA can be very important for proper behaviors since a large portion of those taxa can see into the UVA. For example, dew flaps in anoles are UVA reflectant, as are femoral pore secretions in Desert iguanas,.... So there is value in providing UVA and UVB for simple proper behaviors for herps. 

Ed


----------



## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Scott said:


> \
> I'm very pleased with my lights - and the decision to pay more up front for what I needed. But not everyone can make the decision to go with "premium" lighting when there are other options that cost much less up front.
> 
> s


What brand and model are you happy with? Do your plants thrive? Thsanks1


----------



## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

I really like the idea of LED's and would love to use them myself. The main thing that is keeping me away is the initial cost. I was quoted a price of nearly $600 to get a setup that would be close to the output of my 4 bulb HOT5. 

I know I would save money in the long run, but that is a lot of money to spend on a fixture.


----------



## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

All I can say is I use led from the begginig on my viv and growth is amazing and I use leds on my reef tank as well. check it out LEDs work great!


----------

