# Hardscape complete! TIME TO GET ME SOME FROGS!



## TheRoadToSwole (Jun 19, 2017)

Hey everyone,
So after getting a whopping ZERO responses on my first noob thread requesting stocking ideas for my vivariums, I've decided to contribute instead of attempting to leach information! I've already come to notice a trend with the dart frog community. Most veterans seems to despise the noob questions and are very quick to encourage us frog noobs to research rather than ask said noob questions (sometimes a little more bluntly and harsher than others ). I personally think this is a positive outlook towards the hobby which likely leads to a much broader knowledge of the species. I come from a lifelong background of tropical fish/cichlids where it seems EVERYONE is beyond willing to drop their opinion on you, whether it's requested or not! lol. 

So with that being said, here is a video of my FIRST EVER vivarium hardscape in my 18x18x24 exo terra. I'm going to be ordering a group of 4 Dendrobates Leucomelas "Guyana Banded" for this viv and I literally feel like a little kid waiting on Santa Claus on Christmas morning. 

If anyone has any planting suggestions PLEASE feel free to let me know. Also, any ideas how i could make the little river pea gravel section have reservoir of water please also chime on in!! I thought about removing the gravel and putting some sort of plastic sheet type stuff underneath and putting the gravel back over top. Thoughts on this?


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

I have zero experience with water features, so I can't speak on that. I do like how it's set up thus far though! A big brom in the middle of the driftwood might look cool.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sorry, RoadtoSwole, there are just so many of these newbie threads that sometimes folks can't get to them all. They are not commonly a quick post, either, so they represent an effort on the part of the commenter. Every single thing I will comment on has been addressed ad nauseum in LOTS of other threads. That's why people recommend the search bar (as poor as it is). It's nothing personal. 

I can't tell from your video, but is there a false bottom under there? If the substrate is just in contact with the bottom of the tank, I would recommend either a clay ball layer covered with a fiberglass screen layer to separate the substrate from the drainage layer OR a false bottom separated by egg crate or the like. If that is what is down there, it is not obvious to me in the video. You should probably have at least an inch of drainage layer, probably closer to 1.5 or 2 inches. That gives the water a place to go without keeping your substrate damp and ruining it (and, likely, the tank, over time).

Try not to get too fancy with the substrate. The gravel looks cool on day 1, but will end up getting mixed in with everything else over time. I would just have substrate with leaf litter on top (all of that on top of the drainage layer). That's what the frogs like. Everything else is just for you (which is fine, just use frog welfare as a justification). 

The hardscape is just fine. That is a great piece of wood and you have used it well. The piece of styrofoam in the back may or may not be good for your frogs long term. I am no expert on the chemistry, but I don't use styrofoam in any of my builds. You don't have to have a background at all. There are lots of options for building cool backgrounds including my favorite - the cork mosaic - that I use in all of my tanks. That one is safe, to the best of my knowledge. If you have alot of empty (negative) space up high in the front middle of the tank, you can always add some more branches. The frogs will probably climb on them regularly.

Plants can be planted in the substrate under the leaf litter. They can also be attached to the driftwood and to the background. I do all of the above in my tanks. I love me some bromeliads and most would do great in any aerial position (NOT planted in the substrate). You can use floral wire to attach broms to the hardscape until their roots hold them in place.

The frogs you have chosen are an EXCELLENT choice for a first frog. Leucs are some of my all time favorites. They are gorgeous, have an enchanting call, do well in groups and breed readily in most cases. You will love them.

NO WATER FEATURE. Those are where first tanks go to die. Here is a great thread to peruse before you attempt it.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/288609-whats-water-features.html

On the other hand, hooking up that misting system is a great idea. They work great and are expandable as you add tanks. 

That's what I have time for, for now. Best of luck in your build and I will try to check back if you have further questions.

Mark


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## TheRoadToSwole (Jun 19, 2017)

Encyclia said:


> Sorry, RoadtoSwole, there are just so many of these newbie threads that sometimes folks can't get to them all. They are not commonly a quick post, either, so they represent an effort on the part of the commenter. Every single thing I will comment on has been addressed ad nauseum in LOTS of other threads. That's why people recommend the search bar (as poor as it is). It's nothing personal.
> 
> I can't tell from your video, but is there a false bottom under there? If the substrate is just in contact with the bottom of the tank, I would recommend either a clay ball layer covered with a fiberglass screen layer to separate the substrate from the drainage layer OR a false bottom separated by egg crate or the like. If that is what is down there, it is not obvious to me in the video. You should probably have at least an inch of drainage layer, probably closer to 1.5 or 2 inches. That gives the water a place to go without keeping your substrate damp and ruining it (and, likely, the tank, over time).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply Mark!! I completely understand that it would be tough to help every little frog noob in need! I`m all for putting in the work to figure out the needs of a creature. Like i said, i`m sure it leads to a deeper knowledge base.

I`ve used a 1.5-2 inch layer of hydroballs to fill the bottom and separated it from the substrate using a piece of landscape fabric. In terms of substrate, i`ve used a mixture of coco fiber, jungle mix, ash bark and some pieces of moss scattered through out. The substrate varies from about 2inches thick to probably pushing 6 inches in the back where the elevated level is. Now that i think about it, i`m a little worried that the depth at the back could lead to drainage problems.. Anyone have any experience using such a depth of substrate without issues?

That`s disappointing to hear that the gravel will likely get all mixed in... I was so stoked about it! In regards to the styrofoam. I`ll have to dig a little deeper into the issue. Thank you for the heads up!


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## TheRoadToSwole (Jun 19, 2017)

bssknox said:


> I have zero experience with water features, so I can't speak on that. I do like how it's set up thus far though! A big brom in the middle of the driftwood might look cool.


Thanks for the input! When you say in the middle of the wood do you mean in the hole thats through it?


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

Sorry to hear about your negative first impression of the forum here. I'm a noob too, and I've found this board to be my most invaluable source of info. Perhaps it's my pesky & persistent presence & a plethora (wow, that's a lot of p's ) of questions that made my experience better. I invite you click on my moniker over there, and browse through the threads I started. I spent a lot of time stressing over my substrate mix, so you might want to browse through my inquiries on that. In the end, I chose to use true, unaltered, original recipe ABG mix. You'll notice that many people will replace this ingredient for that, which was my initial approach. I was about to substitute coco coir as a replacement for the peat moss in ABG, thinking the longer lasting, anti-decomposition & anti-compaction properties of coir would be better. Sounds reasonable, right? Then I got thinking of pH. Peat moss is acidic, and gets even more so after a couple years of decomposition, which is why you have to lime the heck out of gardens where you use it, whereas coir is much more closer to neutral. This becomes an important consideration when you're using charcoal in your substrate (I don't know if Jungle Mix has charcoal in it or not). Charcoal is alkaline- like pH 8.5 or so. Tropical plants and dart frogs are healthier in slightly acidic environments, sooooo since ABG is 1/7 charcoal, I decided to stick to the proven recipe which uses peat, as it would acidify & balance the pH.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html

Since your viv is really quite simple, and you're having drainage concerns (and perhaps now pH concerns), at least it shouldn't be too heartbreaking to start over. Eventually, you're gonna hate that styro background, because nothing can root in it, and you're going to wish you could train epiphytic plants all over it. 

Take a piece of your weed matting and stretch it over a jar or something & pour some water on it. How does it drain? Sucks, right? Better to use some fiberglass door screen.

Good luck, man!


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

TheRoadToSwole said:


> Thanks for the input! When you say in the middle of the wood do you mean in the hole thats through it?


Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking.

Also, I think the foam background that comes with the terrarium is safe for PDF's. If someone knows otherwise please speak up, but I have seen them in some veteran hobbyist's vivs.


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## cdeutsch (Sep 1, 2015)

I've used substrate that deep with no drainage issues. That being said I'm using NE Herp substrate (an ABG style substrate). I can't comment specifically how well your substrate would drain given my inexperience with the mix/specific components you are using. The ABG mix is fairly expensive (you will need 3-3.5 gallons for an 18x18, and it runs about $6-8 a gallon) but given that it can quite potentially last you the entire lifespan of your frogs it's worth it over having to remake a second Viv. Are you planning on seeding your Viv with springtails/isopods?

As far as your question regarding good frogs for an 18x18x24 and a 29 gallon: leucs are definitely a great choice. I can almost always see a frog out when I look in my Viv. My Leucs love to climb and any usable surface area you give them they will probably use. Mine tend to spend a good chunk of the day hunting at ground level while heading up into plants for the night.

I can't speak from personal experience but from what I've read tincs are bold frogs for a second tank. You would probably want to limit yourself to two frogs (or be ready with an additional Viv) as apparently the females tend to fight.


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## TheRoadToSwole (Jun 19, 2017)

serial hobbiest said:


> Sorry to hear about your negative first impression of the forum here. I'm a noob too, and I've found this board to be my most invaluable source of info. Perhaps it's my pesky & persistent presence & a plethora (wow, that's a lot of p's ) of questions that made my experience better. I invite you click on my moniker over there, and browse through the threads I started. I spent a lot of time stressing over my substrate mix, so you might want to browse through my inquiries on that. In the end, I chose to use true, unaltered, original recipe ABG mix. You'll notice that many people will replace this ingredient for that, which was my initial approach. I was about to substitute coco coir as a replacement for the peat moss in ABG, thinking the longer lasting, anti-decomposition & anti-compaction properties of coir would be better. Sounds reasonable, right? Then I got thinking of pH. Peat moss is acidic, and gets even more so after a couple years of decomposition, which is why you have to lime the heck out of gardens where you use it, whereas coir is much more closer to neutral. This becomes an important consideration when you're using charcoal in your substrate (I don't know if Jungle Mix has charcoal in it or not). Charcoal is alkaline- like pH 8.5 or so. Tropical plants and dart frogs are healthier in slightly acidic environments, sooooo since ABG is 1/7 charcoal, I decided to stick to the proven recipe which uses peat, as it would acidify & balance the pH.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say it was a negative experience, more of an observation! 
The jungle mix has peat in it so hopefully that will help? I'm not so much concerned that the substrate itsself has poor drainage, more so concerned that the depth of the substrate will have issues. I haven't noticed any problems yet, it was just a hypothetical worry that crossed my mind in using such a thick layer. I guess ill just have to see how it goes!!


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

Well coir on its own drains well, as does peat (at least until it compacts after a couple years), the thing is they both have a humongous capacity to _retain_ water, which you really don't need (or want, in my opinion). Consider that many people are having great success using nothing but Turface as a substrate- those vivs are essentially hydroponic. In the constantly damp environment, the best thing you can do for plants is provide pockets of air for their roots.


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## AOA (Jan 19, 2017)

i second the air space idea above....soil will always do 2 things in a viv over time no mater what organic choice you make, and thats: compact and break down. The tree fern inclusion is far and away the best choice i know of to add air space and prolong breakdown. The fern sticks last a long time in most all my vivs and will really add to the soil mix. 6 inches shouldn't be a problem if you have something in there to help keep it from compacting too much. When it gets packed down too tightly, air cannot get in to facilitate the proper bacteria/fungal processes. things can go anerobic on ya and lead to poor conditions. 

Do you have a way to suck out excess water from the tank if your small drainage layer gets full. I always use false bottoms that can be accessed so I don't have a lot of experience with hydroballs. might need it a bit thicker if you want it to be more effective at keeping standing water off your substrate.

if you want to keep the rock and dirt substrates separated (which I have tried many times to do unsuccessfully) you have to have a legitimate divider. It needs to be well made / placed in the viv. Tossing in a few stones to stop the dirt won't even begin to help matters long term. if you choose to make divider make sure it extends well above the dirt section. I have some pics of a viv that I finally got right if you want.......

Your wood looks great and I love that you can see light thru the hole......it gives your river of rock so much more depth compared to if it was all shadowy back there. I wouldn't block the hole if it were me, thats what gives that piece its character. If you put a boom in there, it ceases to be a cool piece of DW with a hole in it. The brom idea as a centerpiece is a great idea!

good luck and really give the idea of a false bottom and cork mosaic BG a thought. you might be glad you did

A really great start! keep us all posted

JD


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Sorry Swole! You know I started to reply to that thread, got a couple of paragraphs typed here on my phone, and then it was weed when a call came in... So I gave up. Ha!

Kudos for not getting discouraged. I think the key is to read until your eyes bleed. (Just kidding. But they should be sore or else you need to keep going. 😋.) I think another reason some posts get no traffic is because many folks use Tapatalk, myself included, and I just check the Timeline. Or maybe folks aren't subscribed to the beginner discussion.
You may have already discovered that the search is wonky right now so just search Google for "Dendroboard _________" fill in the blank. Good luck! Post lots of pictures!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## TheRoadToSwole (Jun 19, 2017)

Alright folks,
After much deliberation i've decided put the frogs on hold!
I'm going to rip this down after taking some pictures of the drift wood placement and giver another go!

I'd really like to replicate how the wood is laid out right now but a little worried it'll be a challenge.. HERES HOPING!!

I've realized that i really have no way of draining the excess out of the drainage layer.. this is a problem.. I've also almost thrown up multiple times in realising how hideous the styro background really is . Ok maybe im being a little dramatic.

Last night i was out in the garage and I came up with an idea i think will look amazing for the background. I have a bunch of oak stumps that I cut for firewood in the back yard of my house. I took a large chisel, crowbar and hammer and was able to strip off the bark in huge curved sections that i feel i could use to replicate tree stumps in the background. I'm going to boil them for a few hours followed by putting them in the oven for a few hours on low heat to sterilize.. Hope that should do it???

Still haven't figured out what im going to do to fill in the back space as the bark is formed into semi circle "C" type shapes which would leave a lot of open space between the bark and glass. I may try to slowly fill it with expanding foam and see how it goes. I'm worried that this may be an issue as this expanding foam may just expand far too much and dislodge the bark from where i place it. Any other ideas on what i could use to secure the bark where i want it and fill in the back space behind the bark?

I have one really interesting piece that has a natural hole from where another branch was growing out of the stump. I'm thinking of conserving this look by completely coating the backside of the bark with silicone, pressing it against the glass vertically to make a tree stump appearance and filling the entire bark section with peat to allow plant growth out of the natural hole and maybe even plants growing out of the top of the stump. Not sure if my words paint a picture of the idea i'm trying to convey but I tried my best!! lol, any thoughts on this? 

I'll apologize for the wall of text in advance. Kinda went off a little there


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## spikeizzy77 (Nov 8, 2016)

Hope it all goes well.


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## TheRoadToSwole (Jun 19, 2017)

Well it's been a while but i've been putting in some work!!!
Built myself a custom background with goodstuff spray foam and various decorations. Plants arrived yesterday so its now all planted and ready to roll!!!
What do you guys think?!
Now in terms of lighting. I currently have 2 exoterra CFL bulbs. one is "natural light" and the other "reptile uvb 100". I also have a second light hood which im thinking of throwing in 2 6500k CFL bulbs to supplement. Any thoughts on this lighting set up? Overkill/insufficient??

Anyways, here's a little video to show ya what i've mustered up!


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## cdeutsch (Sep 1, 2015)

UVB won't penetrate glass as a heads up. Typically 2x 6500k CFL (depending on wattage) should be fine. If you have the extra lights probably wouldn't hurt (assuming they aren't increasing the temp of the Viv too high). Looking pretty good though.


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