# 26gal Bowfront Paladarium



## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Well I have looked at a lot of great construction journals here on DendtoBoard and have really been inspired. I really liked JL-Exotics' Office Viv

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14262&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Now it is time for me to post my own. Please chime in with any thoughts or recommendations.

I am building a 26 gallon bowfront paladarium. Perhaps a bit ambitious for 26 gallons, but I figure if the pool for the tetras doesn't work out, it will make it a cool additional "subterrainean" level for the frogs.

So here is the beginings... false bottom, pourous wall for fish/drainage, wood for water feature, abs in the corner to allow easy access to the pump.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Looks like you're off to a great start. Keep us updated!


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

...and here's a shot of the hose for the water feature as I start to foam the hardscape. It does a lazy "S" out of the ABS and comes out between the "V" in the wood.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Thanks Antone. Stay tuned, I want your recommendation on some broms. I've been looking at your site, but it's just now that I am starting to get an idea of where I'm going to put them. I'll post a pic with some scribbles of where I want to place them and I would love to get some suggestions since broms are one thing I don't know much about (other than what I like visually)


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

No problem. I can definately help you out.


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

tookay, 

Nice tank, I am in the east bay as well, so if you ever need any help just ask. You have any darts yet?

Danny


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Thanks for the offer Danny. I've been wondering if there are any local groups for PDFs.

I have two D. Tinctorious Olemarie that I've had for a year and a half now. They live behind my chair in my cube at work. They are my little slice of nature that keeps me sane.

The new tank will house two Auratus(sp?) Hawiian and several Neon Tetras. The new tank is for home.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

I'm almost done with the Great Stuff. I've sketched in the placement for the broms that I am considering. Any suggestions on varieties, Antone et. al, is welcome.

I would like the one lower left to be big enough for the frogs to raise eggs in (not that I am necessarily hard core about them breeding.)


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Okay, starting from top left corner clockwise to bottom. I'd use...

1. N. Chiquita Linda
2. N. Red Waif
3. N. rubrifolia
4. N. dungsiana
5. N. lillputiana x (fireball x eltoniana)
6. N. little brother or A. gamosepala

How's that?


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Wow! that's great! Is it easy for you to point me to some pictures of those? If not, I can browse around for them later.

Thanks Antone!
~N


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Sure I can. They are all on my website...

http://www.frogbroms.com/N_chiquitaLinda.htm

http://www.frogbroms.com/n_redwaif.htm

http://www.frogbroms.com/N_rubrifolia.htm

http://www.frogbroms.com/N_dungsiana.htm

http://www.frogbroms.com/N_lilliputianaHybrid.htm

http://www.frogbroms.com/N_LittleBrother.htm

http://www.frogbroms.com/A_gamosepala.htm


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Excellent! Thanks Antone. I'll be chatting with you more later when I'm not on the bosses dime. Those look great.

~Nate


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I look forward to it as well as seeing your awesome viv progress. Keep the pics rollin'!


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## *slddave* (Jun 2, 2006)

I like the style and layout of the waterfall and pool. Keep it up!


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Thanks siddave.

I finished the foaming today and gave it a water test. It works GREAT! the water is flowed pretty much how I was hoping. There is a little caulking work to be done at the bottom to reduce spashing.

My pump (becketts) is a little louder than I would like. Does anyone have a good, quiet pump recommendation? The trick is it needs to fit inside a pc of 3" ABS pipe and be a submersible pump.

Anyway... I'm excited to start covering with coco fiber tomorrow.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

...and the flocking has begun.










side angle


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

looking great, love it. That drift wood looks perfect. Good luck!


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

I really like how you've done this, I've been looking all around for ideas, and I just might have to copy you  I can't wait to see how it turns out.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Thanks guys. 

Picking the wood was the most time consuming. I really looked carefully at the shapes of wood. Hitting 3 stores multiple times each before buying the pieces. I wanted to sculpt something that really took advantage of the volume of the tank, not just stick a bunch of stuff to the back wall.

I'm pretty happy. The main piece of wood (actually two siliconed together) is not only a water feature, but also divides the tank in two, with a nice cavernous cave passing back underneath.

Feel free to take all the ideas you want digital01. I've taken my share from this board. It's a great resource and fantastic community.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Antone! PM waiting for you.

~N


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Wonderful start, Tookay! I couldn't agree more with you on choice of wood. I take a tape measure to stores because I usually know about what length or height I want. Your idea of combining 2 pieces is excellent.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2006)

I have a question for anyone who may know. When constructing a tank with such a deep water pool, what are the chances of the frogs drowning. I've read that some species will try drown members of the same sex if the water is shallow enough, but I'm just talking about a frog falling in there accidentally. Thanks.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

I have no idea how likely it is. SlaytonP (sp?) has built some substantial Paladariums (She frequents the PDF forum on Kingsnake) .and she says that the main thing is to have a good exodus for the frogs. Pieces of wood, etc that they can climb out on. 

My guess is that if the fall in the pool on this tank, they're not going to be fighting anymore - they're going to be swimming for the bank. I think they would have a better chance of drowning each other in a shallow pool they can stand in.

Just my inexperienced educated guess though.


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

Tookay,

Your tank looks fantastic. I have a paludarium that has been up and running for four years now, so I know some of the challenges you are up against. If you get a chance, check out my construction journal - http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= - there might be some good information that you can use.

What is your water filtration/circulation system? Adding a sump made a huge difference in the maintance of my tank, you should really consider it. It will make everything easier from filtration to water changes.

The biggest concern I see is maintaining a constant water level. You've got a flow through substraight, as I have a completely divided land/water divider. In order to maintain a constant water level, you will need to add water almost daily. Water changes may, also, be a challenge.

Here's some other ideas for inhabitants of your water section:
- Dwarf Claw Frogs - they are very entertaining
- Dwarf or Pigmy Cory Cat Fish - they will top out at about 1"
- Otto Cat Fish - a very small algae eater that will keep your water plants clean
- Marble Hatchets - a small school of 3-4 are really interesting and will occupy only the top of the water section.

Keep us updated and good luck.

Tim


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Time for another update... I've finished flocking and am reading to start planting.










Found these kyoto moss spores at a nearby nursery. I read a thread where someone was going to try them. They don't exactly sound tropical (used in Japanese bonzai projects) but I like the idea of dusting the tank with spores and seeing what will grow where.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Wow! Thanks for the post Tim. I definately need to spend a little more time with your construction journal.

...ok, read a little more and all I can still say is, "wow." As for filtration, i just have gravel under the land part and was hoping it would act like a biological filter. To be truthful, I did not put a lot of planning into the water section. If it doesn't work the way I want, my plan is to drain it down to the the level necessary to cover the pump, add more gravel to give me enough hight to cover the water level and let the frogs occupy it as a subterranian level.

This isn't going on a cabinet, so I don't have the option of a fancy outside filtration system, so this one will have to stay simple-ish.

Thanks for your post. you've given me a lot to consider.

~N


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow, that tank is coming out really nicely, I can't wait to see it planted out. I'm curious as to how the fish will do in the tank. I'm keeping my eyes peeled.


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## dustin_grey (Mar 8, 2006)

I want some spores  I might have to call some nurseries.


Btw, great tank, I can tell this is going to turn out incredible.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

You can buy spores online. I found the exact same thing online for 4 dollars plus shipping. About 10 dollars total.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Wow, I love the spores idea. Has anyone else tried them? Can't wait to see how they turn out in this viv.


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## Cville-dart (Apr 12, 2006)

I found the spores online for about $4 with only about $1 shipping. Check Ebay. I added about half a pack to my viv about 2 weeks ago. The instructions state that you should see growth in about 4 to 8 weeks.









If I see growth, I will post some pics. in my gallery.
http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/index.php?cat=12206


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2006)

Hi Lance

Nice work! Love the way the wood comes down into the water area. 

That last picture is coming out really small (maybe it's me, but all your other pics in this post are regular size). Do you have a larger shot of the tank all planted? I


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Tank isn't planted yet. You're seeing it happen quasi real-time. I'm off on a mini family vacation for a long weekend, so look for more pictures next week.

Thank you all for your comments and encouragement.

~Nate


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2006)

Ah, ok. TOLD you I couldn't see it, hehe. Forgot my glasses today. 8) 

[/dumba$$]


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Hey S1ren,

Looks as if you thought Lance's shot was actually one of Nate's. Me too, at first! Something about Lance's tank in the small pic is very reminiscent of Nate's developing one. 

Lance, I'm seeing nothing in your gallery yet...


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Looks great so far Tookay!

Love the backwall as well as the choice of driftwood.
I also take alotta time in choosing driftwood for all my vivs!


On another note wuts the frog in yur avatar???
And can you post some more pictures of it on DB???

Cant wait to see it planted!!!


Todd


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## Cville-dart (Apr 12, 2006)

Diane - thanks for telling me about my gallery. I keep trying to set the permissions for public view and it keep returning to "me only". Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong?

Tookay - it looks great. I can't wait to see it completed.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Wow this is incredible looking! Where'd you get the piece of wood and what kind is it?


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Back from my long weekend and I can't wait to get water pumping through it, the moss spores planted and my plants ordered.

Dendrobait, I don't know what kind of wood it is, to be honest. I've heard it called African Root Wood (??) and Asian Root Wood (??) Both, I think, are generic names for root wood from particular regions, but I were to ask the retail workers what kind of trees they are from, I'm sure they couldn't tell me. 

...though I will try to find out the next time I go into those stores.

I would love to get my hands on some Ghost Wood, but I insist on hand picking my pieces and I can only find it online.

The big piece in the middle of the tank is actually two pieces siliconed together to make the water feature. Most of the wood I got at a local Petco. The rest I got at the Vivarium. A local reptile & amphibian shop.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Todd.

The avitar is of my D. Tinc. It's an Olemarie that I got from Black Jungle a year and a half ago.

I'll post some pics as soon as I have a chance.

~N


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

I've spread the moss spores and planted some creeping fig clippings from my other tank. The water feature is running (just to help keep it humidity up and to start conditioning the water.) I still have to move it home before I fill it all the way. The water level will be twice again as high - half way up the bank.

Broms are ordered.. frogs arrive tomorrow, but will go in a temp tank.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Looking good! I'm going to borrow how your wood goes into the water like that if I can find a suitable piece. Are you dead set on keeping neons in there? Some other fish might work as well.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2006)

That looks really awesome, congratulations. This is one of the nicest viv's I have seen. Hopefully I can make something half as good as yours.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Dendrobait said:


> Are you dead set on keeping neons in there? Some other fish might work as well.


I'm not dead set on the neons. Though I like their color and I think I need to keep it to a smallish fish. They don't have a lot of room in there. I did like Tim's suggestions. I'm going to look at catfish as well.

Any other ideas?

I don't want to fish to overshadow the frogs, the frogs are very much the centerpiece. The fish are just added color and movement.

(that's my thinking anyway.)


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I did a thread on fish for paludariums that you might find interesting. What is the water volume of the thing?(maybe 8 gallons since it looks like 1/3 of the tanks heigh unless you don't have a false bottom). Pygmy cories would be great. Might want to consider some of the killifish...smaller ones would work excellently.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

That's an interesting thread Dendrobait, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17349&highlight=paludarium

Ok, I'll reconsider tetras (though I was going to get 5.) I think you are right, it's probably about 8 gallons, half of that under the false bottom.

I like the dwarf puffer idea. I'm going to look into that. I also like the idea of small cats. Time to visit Octopus Garden in Berkeley.

Thanks,
Nate


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

Tiny shrimps would look really good in there too. Like for example Crystal Reds or Red Cherries.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Those are cool. I esp like the crystal reds.

Thanks Satu. Keep the suggestions coming, ya'll. They're great.


~Nate


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2006)

Shrimp would be really cool, I'd assume they would leave your tadpoles alone, and maybe even become a food source. 

Has anyone one else keep any other fish with tadpoles before?

Oh, what about sea monkeys? They don't grow large at all, therefore they wouldn't pose a threat, and they are quite fun to watch. Just an idea...


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

I want to learn more about these shrimp. They look sweet and if they benefit the vivarium in any way, and not harm it, I would really want one!

And Tookay, Your viv looks awesome! Its very unique. Great job!

Frank


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I was actually considering shrimp for my paludarium as well. Anyway, they seem to me like they'd be perfect. Don't give them water that is too warm, keep water quality good, and provide them dense plants and food and they pretty much breed themselves. I'd reccomend cherry red shrimps for starters .

Digital101: Sea monkeys are saltwater so no go. FW version would be fairy shrimp(raising some now for fun in fact) but they'd be a pain in a paludarium. They live short lives and the eggs must be dried before they can hatch again.


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

http://shrimpnow.com/ is a good place to read about shrimps. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/shrimp/ has some good discussions too. And if you speak German or are willing to translate the site with Babelfish or something else, this is a really good place: http://www.wirbellose.de/arten.html.

As Dendrobait said, Red Cherries are good beginner shrimps. After awhile, you will have lots and lots of shrimps if you first get both females and males.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

ok, time for an update.

I recieved my mosses and my broms (thanks Antone.) I've placed most of them. Still have to drill a hole for the brom on the upper left and mount some more of the moss. 

The water area still needs some attention, but I currently have the tank at work and I want to move it home where it will live before I fill it.










..and a close-up.










...and the new residents, frogletts. Two of each. They are currently in a temporary tank.



















Now, I know there are mixed opinions about mixing frogs, so I guess this is your chance to state your thoughts (I have read some of the threads about it, so you don't need to point me to them) If you have some experience specifically with mixing Leucs and Aratus' I'd be happy to hear it.

Thanks in advance for any feedback. I really appreciate it.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

The viv looks great. You may want to move the tiger cub out of the flow of the water b/c it may rot later down the road.

As for the mixing thing, you're gonna start a war but I'll tell you straight up... Don't mix Dart Frogs, especially those 2 species. They are just too closely related and can possibly hybridize.

If your viv was 526 gals and you had thumbs mixed with tincs, MAYBE then it would be okay but this small of a viv, I wouldn't do it.

Good luck.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Thanks, Antone, for the comment on the tiger cub. I'll move it. Think I will take some close-up pics of how I planted the rest incase some of the others are in too wet a spot.

I certainly don't want to start a war. I do have my temp tank that could become a home for the Aratus' if need be, but for now they are going to grow up together.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Wow, that turned out awesome! The driftwood waterfall is a really nice touch, I know what you mean about scouring the pet stores looking for just the right piece!

That tank will look even better when the moss takes off, really nice job setting that up!!

I don't have luecs or auratus, so I won't comment on that particular combo other than to say that I'm not opposed to mixing species as long as they don't reproduce. Maybe you got lucky and have 2 pairs and they'll breed true. Or maybe you got all 1 sex and breeding won't be an option... or maybe you have both sexes and they just choose not to breed for you. Just make sure you're prepared for all the possibilities.

They look great btw!

Jeremy


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Awesome viv guy!!!
Gives me some very good ideas for a 65 gallon upright I am planning on.

As for the mixing of those two species? Take some advice from a fool who alredy tried it (not to say you are a fool, just me).

I kept my leucs, azures, and tincs together in a tempory setup for a couple weeks when I first got them, thinking that they would be "OK" for the time until I got the viv built. Wrong!!! I lost two tincs from the stress of the other froglets. 

If your tank where much larger for 4 frogs, I would say go for it, but not with one that small.

You will find that the Auratus will hide in all those "caves" you have and you will not see them very much until the tank fills in with vegitation. The Leucs, on the other hand, will be all over the place, they would love that tank. So I would advise Leucs in that tank, Auratus, somewhere else.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

You don't sound like a fool to me, Steve. That sounds like some sage advice. Thank you. 

You're right, the Auratus are reclusive, but so far don't seem to mind the other frogs in the tank. The Luecs could care less about the Auratus.

What is the behaviour like when frogs are "stressed out?"


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Tookay said:


> ...What is the behaviour like when frogs are "stressed out?"


A lot of frogs hide excessively, lose weight and/or constantly climb the sides of the tank non stop.

Those are observations I've had with my own frogs.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2006)

*mixing*

ive got a 90 gal and am wanting to mix bassleri with some basti pums...any comments?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: mixing*



studunn000 said:


> ive got a 90 gal and am wanting to mix bassleri with some basti pums...any comments?


Just 1 comment... Don't do it.

Main reason... Bastis are FAR too aggressive and territorial and it would be undue stress on both species. Also, E. bassleri will probably eat any small froglets that the pums would produce. Don't mix these Stuart.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Riccia moss is growing great! After only a week it is showing new growth.

when first "planted"









..and after a week









Kyoto moss spores are still a no show, but they've only been in there for two weeks (I think)


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

So here's a total "brom novice" question. This guy started browning pretty quick. Is it too much moister? Is it just the life cycle (there seem to be new growth at the base) Is it stress from the shipping?

I want to know what I need to do to keep my new broms healthy. Trying to keep a close eye on them. I'm concerned the some might be in spots the keep them too moist. (poked a hole in the GS with a pencil and gently wedged them in.)

Ideas?

Antone?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

What you can do is just rip that whole leaf off. It won't harm the plant. That happens sometimes when they are put into such a moist envronment. Not a super huge deal. The good news is that you have a pup coming off the bottom, so in a few weeks you'll have a new brom!!

Edit: Correction... 2 pups!!


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## Fishinfl321 (Aug 10, 2006)

Tookay,
First of all I want to say I like your set up with the wood and stuff. I have a question though, I am thinking about doing something similar to your water feature and wanted to know if you have had any water quality issues with the water being under the substrate and having the substrate drain into the same water as the pond? Thanks, Troy


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2006)

> Tookay,
> First of all I want to say I like your set up with the wood and stuff. I have a question though, I am thinking about doing something similar to your water feature and wanted to know if you have had any water quality issues with the water being under the substrate and having the substrate drain into the same water as the pond? Thanks, Troy


I have done something quite similar as well...I loved the look of his I emulated it. So far the water quality is pretty good. There is a small amount of tannis present, but it just makes the water appear to be in a small stream. I only have 10 ghost shrimp in there right now with some plants. Nothing I'm too worried about, but this has only been a week since filling the tank.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Like Chris said, the water is a light tea color from seeping throught the coco fiber and running over the wood, but so far it seems to be fine. There is good flow, which I'm sure helps. I just added three feeder guppies to the pond area this morning, so I will keep ya'll posted.

Chris' luck with the shrimp is encouraging to me though. Thanks for posting Chris. I haven't had time to look further into what I am going to add to the pond area, but shrimp are a definite possibility.

I'm planning to drain it down next week and cart it home. Then I will focus some attention on the pond. Right now I am just letting the water run and the plants get established.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2006)

I'm planning on keeping cheap feeder shrimp for a little while, and depending on how that works, I'll add some more expensive shrimp (can't get much cheaper than 10 for $1  ). The only issue with the shrimp is that your water flow can't be too high, and they need a lot of plants to hide in.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Time for an update. The moses are really starting to take hold. The Riccia is going gangbusters and the Kyoto moss is finally starting to appear too.

The frogs moved in yesterday and seem to love it. They are all over the place, top to bottom. The large Aratus is a bit shy and hangs out most of the time in the cave under the water feature.










Here is a little tuft of kyoto moss starting to appear. I dusted the whole tank awhile back. It's interesting to see where it is creeping up. It seems to like a lot of light and just the right amount of moisture. I'm not sure yet, but what initially looked like algae growing on the wood in the water stream might be kyoto moss (some of it at least.) If that's true, then the spores were deposited there by getting cycled through the fountain. Kinda cool.










and last but not least, one of the inhabitants, chillin'


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2006)

Looks AWESOME Nate. The frogs will be happy!


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Well, I figured it was time for an update now that the plants have really grown in. The original inhabitants all died. It seemed like they were all pretty stressed and never quite acclimated. I even took them to a herp vet and he couldn't find anything wrong with them.

Anyway I was really bummed, but let the tank continue to establish. A couple of weeks ago I picked up some beautiful frogs from Infrogneato at the San Jose Reptile show. (2 Luecs and 2 Azuras) They are much larger than the first frogs I got and are alreay showing more normal behavior.

So here is the tank as of tonight.











and here is one of the frogs. My son named him Ocean.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Hey Nate. Your moss has grown in really nice and the other plants seem to be doing okay as well. Your brom in the top middle looks like its got a bit of rot but other than that, I think the plants look great. I have to ask 2 questions...

Did you put new frogs into an old viv where all the other frogs lived that died?

Do you have the D. azureus mixed with the D. leucomelas in this viv?


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

I see a leuc up top and an azureus on the lower half near the water feature. I'd definitely recomend seperating the 2 species especially after you just lost 4 frogs. azureus are also very territorial. 

Mike


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Yeah, Nate, good advice from experienced froggers. Look at it as the excuse to build another beautiful viv! (But put one species in a temporary tank while you're building...)


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

hey Antone,

The other frogs did live in this tank for a short while, but when I saw they weren't eating well enough I put them in a smaller, quieter tank. They did a little better, but they still seemed stressed. Why do you ask?  Are you concerned about parasites? I had the previous frogs tested and found nothing.... 

As to your other question, yes, I am mixing. I know that is heavily frowned at on Dendroboard. I know it seems like I am casting good advice to the wind, but believe me I am listening to the comments of the experienced. To be frank, I have talked to several other herpers whose opinion I also respect and they have successfully mixed certain frogs. My interest is for the animals, not just my own whims and I am watching them carefully.

So far they seem to be getting on quite well. To answer your question Mike, I took this picture shortly before the lights went out. That leuc sleeps up at the top, he is just tucked in for bed. The other Leuc and the large Azureus sleep together on a piece of wood (litterally, side by side every night) and the other Azureus has two spots he alternates between. What kind of behaviors do Azureus exhibit when they are being territorial (perhaps I am missing it!?)

During the day they all are very active, top to bottom of the tank and seemingly indifferent to each other. I will continue to watch them and may just seperate them eventually anyway. Don't temp me, Diane, to build another tank. I just have to lay low for awhile until I can justify the expense to my wife again. 
:wink: 

I would really like get involved in the NorCal Dendro Society that sounds like it has recently started to meet. Dendroboard is great, but no substitute for talking face to face with other hobbyists. I hope I can get involved.

Thank you for you comments, you three. I do appreciate them.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

antone,

What is the difference between a brom leaf simply browning and root rot? The last time I asked you about a browning leaf you said it was fine, just pull the leaf off. What should I be looking for when it comes to root rot?

Thanks


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Rot usually involved the whole leaf getting really nasty and brown and a horrid smell will eminate from it. Some leaves just get brown spots here and there that aren't a problem. I have a feeling they are both types of rot but the latter being not so bad. So long as the center of the brom isn't "mushy" then you're alright.


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## arrow-frog-fan (May 15, 2006)

That is one nice viv! I do have to ask though, you mentioned that you had some kyoto moss spores that you scattered around inside. Could you please tell me where I could get ahold of some myself. I am having a bit of trouble with moss for some reason. I would like to try some different kinds maybe. Thanks.


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## Tookay (Jul 20, 2006)

Antone,

Yes, I think I know the smell of which you speak. Ok, I'll take a closer look.

Thanks. That is helpful.



Arrow frog fan,

Now, after having tried it, I wouldn't really recommend the Kyoto moss. It grows really slowly. It is very particular about where it grows and it is delicate. It can't really take the frogs trampling on it.

If you are looking for it to grow in some inaccessable areas to the frogs, then sure, why not. I think you can find it online. I found it at a local nusery that had a bonsai section.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Man, I know that smell, too! So repulsive!


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2006)

In your mixing regards I wish you the best of luck and hope everything turns out well if you insist on doing it and you have a beautiful viv!  Now lets see if I can post a pic on here lol

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m117/black_envy/zzzzzz.jpg?t=1164467425

Where the red circle is, that viv is pratically begging for some jewel orchids!


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2006)

Um ok...let's try it again :lol: 










I think I saved it as a bmp by mistake, this should work I hope

Nevermind I do need help :roll:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Weird, I try and post the pic, and it doesn't work either. Then again, its photobucket. It's hit or miss with that site...

I'm coming into this post rather late, but it's better late than never right?

My initial concern is that is looks like there is an overhang of "land" over the pond... overhangs like that are conditions that have caused drownings in the past... frog gets into pond, swims into the corner, and can't get out. Don't assume they will just swim over to the log thats right behind them...

Another comment on mixing. Hybridizing is an issue due to the lack of genetic management of what we have in the hobby, but further down the list on the "problems with mixing", and hardly the only reason. I've posted this in the past... the problems lie with differences in care needs, and inter/intraspecies relations (or lack there of). 

Dendrobatids are some of the most aggressive amphibians out there, both in respect to interspecies and intraspecies aggression, but usually around interspecies more (with the exception of frogs like pumilio and tricolor/anthonyi, well known to attack and even kill other species). With species within the same species group, they may actually look at another species in the tank and act with the same aggression as it would a member of its own species - this is especially true with breeding animals. An adult azureus is just about twice the mass of a leuc, who do you think will win?

Also, these species have differences in environmental needs, as leucs are seasonal breeders that really should have seasonal cycling, where azureus for the most part are not. I also think the tank is built much more appropriately for the leucs than the azureus, as I'd like to see more floorspace for the clunkier and more leaf litter based azureus.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2006)

I want to build a replica of that or as close as I can get! Great job

I have no viv experience as of yet but decent aquarium experience with African cichlids (tangs.) and aquascapeing. 

I think I will take my time and try to make my first project for PDFs like yours. You will prob. see some questions from me in the near future

Soon as it warms up and shipping prices are cheaper from what I’ve seen most sites quote differently for winter, and I live in MN. 

-Evan


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

I cant believe that after loosing all your frogs do to mixing, that you would even try mixing again in that small of a tank. Boo on you :evil:


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## joeyo90 (Nov 5, 2006)

Tookay said:


> As to your other question, yes, I am mixing. I know that is heavily frowned at on Dendroboard. I know it seems like I am casting good advice to the wind, but believe me I am listening to the comments of the experienced. To be frank, I have talked to several other herpers whose opinion I also respect and they have successfully mixed certain frogs. My interest is for the animals, not just my own whims and I am watching them carefully.


another thing to consider is... how much more experience with pdf's do they have then you? they may have had good experiences with them but i would asume they have had pdf's alot longer and more able to pick up on signs of agression and stressed out frogs
it is a nice viv would be awsome for a group of leucs but its floor space looks to small for the more terrestrial azureus, the viv is also very small for mixing i wih your animals the best of luck


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## sweety (Oct 10, 2006)

it looks great.

i have a question. 

back in july 26 when you added the substrate cover over the GS. what did you use to make it stick? i tried something like that yesterday by covering the GS when it was still wet. i did not have much luck.

thanks

sweety


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

You use silicone to cover the GS once it is dried. Apply the silicone and then apply the dry cocofiber.


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## gundog100 (Jun 2, 2008)

Can I ask, is it ok then to mix the different coloured leucs? Could you have yellow and ornage ones in the same viv?


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I have mixed luecs. and azu. for some time now and they are doing great. No problems at all


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

I wonder if the moss spores worked? :?:


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