# also looking for specific feeders and how to breed



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ok....dr.frye mentioned some termites are good for darts when they are not having an appetite as they will get rarely turned down. Rich i might need your help here. what species do i get, where to get parasite-free, and how to breed? 

also want to know where to get parasite free crix and the how to breed them for pinheads. I do not want my house overloaded with crix and of course not termites...that wouldn't be a good idea. any help would be much appreciated. I am going to try this. I am known to be a phobiac of introducing possible parasites to my darts. quite frankly...i get sick of quarantines and treating, but it must be done. could anyone and everyone please help? I have one tinc male so stressed that he will not eat anything...have been treating with metronidazole and baytril.....dr, fryes treatment plan, he fecaled clean, but is so rail thin i fear an upcoming death just because he wont eat. I have given him springtails, woodlice, and a few flies at a time. not one fecal in 5 days! he is active a plus. so i need to know how to breed crix and termites, what species, and specifics to keep it parasite free. please help. thank you. kristy


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

This is slightly off topic but a question that might be asked of Dr. Frye or another person here might have experience....

Since PDF's absorb things through their skin is it possible to drop some Stimulap or other comparable feeding stimulant onto their backs? I know it's not possible to force feed them because it would stress them to the point of death.

Sorry it's off topic but seemed like a useful question in your situation.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> This is slightly off topic but a question that might be asked of Dr. Frye or another person here might have experience....
> 
> Since PDF's absorb things through their skin is it possible to drop some Stimulap or other comparable feeding stimulant onto their backs? I know it's not possible to force feed them because it would stress them to the point of death.
> 
> Sorry it's off topic but seemed like a useful question in your situation.


understand. metronidazole is a appetite stimulant and dr. frye can only give out med advice. i need advice on my questions answered about the breeding of the feeders. thanks...oh, and no worries for trying and answering but just the feeders. dr.frye has given me all meds i need and am using them as prescribed. but he did mention try other breeders and get them going for situations like this...so i need everyones advice if that makes sense since i only culture springs, woodlice, and ff as of now. and i need to know so i can order so they arrive this week, parasite free ways...i'm not making ANY SENSE AM I LOL kristy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Breeding crickets is fairly easy. I've always just used a smallish critter keeper with a small rubbermaid style container that has a mixture of soil and vermiculite. Make sure that the soil mix is damp and add a dozen or so adult crickets into the keeper. I remove the soil container after 2 days and place it into another clean container and wait for the pinheads to show up. You can sometimes get a few breedings out of the adults, but I usually toss them after the first batch since they can be a bit noisy.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> Breeding crickets is fairly easy. I've always just used a smallish critter keeper with a small rubbermaid style container that has a mixture of soil and vermiculite. Make sure that the soil mix is damp and add a dozen or so adult crickets into the keeper. I remove the soil container after 2 days and place it into another clean container and wait for the pinheads to show up. You can sometimes get a few breedings out of the adults, but I usually toss them after the first batch since they can be a bit noisy.


tim sorry to sound so blonde but what is vermiculite? lol he he and my concern is to get parasite-free crix...good source? 

oh and still need termite advice and any cricket breeding advice from everyone. thanks! kristy


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I know I'm the newbie but I can search the net  

Termite info:
Culturing termites [Archive] - Arachnoboards

Looked pretty good for info with the exception of where you can get termites....

EDIT: It does say where you can order them and thankfully you aren't in Arizona or Oregon

http://www.carolina.com/product/liv...ive+insects/living+soldier+worker+termites.do

However, one poster did say he got mites in them but from my understanding mites aren't exactly bad for PDF's?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

kristy55303 said:


> tim sorry to sound so blonde but what is vermiculite? lol he he and my concern is to get parasite-free crix...good source?
> 
> oh and still need termite advice and any cricket breeding advice from everyone. thanks! kristy


Vermiculite is a gardening substrate that kind of acts like a sponge. You can get it at most all home depots and the like. It's also used for most egg incubations for snakes and lizards and such.

As for parasite free I would say your best bet is going to be to just breed a few generations if you want to be sure. I can tell you that when I bred beardies and chameleons I never had any problems with the animals getting parasites from eating crickets. The only times that I ever had parasites in my collections we from wc chameleons that I would get and once wormed would they would never show up again.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Also Try these two video's from Alan on the other side of the pond.

Waxmoth Culture
AJCs Virtual Frogroom: Waxmoth cultures video

Woodlice Culture
AJCs Virtual Frogroom: Woodlice cultures

There are also springtails
Was looking for the post about the best way to culture these however I cant find it. Maybe someone else can.

and Bean Beetles
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/26821-bean-beetles.html

You could also do aphids, pinheads, jewel wasps, Flour Beetles.

Hope these suggestions help.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

just looking for crix and termites kristy


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Kristy,
keep in mind that termites are still soil-dwelling insects and have the potential to be disease vectors of things like coccidia and harmful bacteria. If you can find someone that is actually culturing them in clean materials, you may reduce the risk, but I don't know too many people with the patience and space. With all that said, I was fortunate enough to find a dampwood termite nest a few years back, which I fed to several things that gobbled them up vigorously.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

jubjub47 said:


> Breeding crickets is fairly easy. I've always just used a smallish critter keeper with a small rubbermaid style container that has a mixture of soil and vermiculite. Make sure that the soil mix is damp and add a dozen or so adult crickets into the keeper. I remove the soil container after 2 days and place it into another clean container and wait for the pinheads to show up. You can sometimes get a few breedings out of the adults, but I usually toss them after the first batch since they can be a bit noisy.



This is how I do it as well but on just a little bigger scale. I found I needed about 50 or so adult crickets breeding to lay enough eggs to give me enough pinheads to feed out to my collection. I have a water source in with the adult crickets along with romaine lettuce, crushed dry kitten food, and sometimes an apple or orange slice.

A search on the web on "breeding crickets" should yield you all the info you'll need. There's really no great science to it. I'm not sure that getting parasite free crickets is that big a risk either. At least I've never heard anybody on the board here list that as something to be careful of.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i have a tinc that refuses to eat. just got suggestion from dr.frye. i don't know where to get them abnd bacteria/coccidia makes me more worried about it. any suggestions dane? kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

gary: i could be wrong, but crix do have the potential for parasites. would like them to come from a clean, amphibian/herp free cricket farm. your way sounds great. when i did a search it said i need a rubbermaid tub:2 with mosquito netting, they can chew through fiberglass...where do you get mosquito netting? i am not sure about termites. i am sure dr.frye is referring to something cultred already for food and not found laying around and not the typical termites we are thinking of. i think dr frye did state crickets contain too much
chitin and parasite vectors and to skip....he can't post on board, so i am just relaying what i THINK he said. then someone said i would need heat. what is an inepensive heat source? for the crix? he;s not in or i'd ask where to get the termites he is specifically referring to. i know in my heart his good intentions and knowledge that he would not suggest termites of a particular kind that are potentials for coccidia. i erased message or memory what species they were when he told me bout it. i will have to ask tomorrow when he is in. my tinc wont eat springtails, woodlice, or ff. frustrating. kristy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm sure crickets just like anything can contain parasites. But as commonly fed around the world to herps I doubt that it is a huge problem with them.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm not a professional but I'm pretty sure that there is know use trying to eliminate all parasites. obviously you want your frogs to remain healthy but even in the wild they carry some amount of parasites and in some animals this can actually be beneficial too I'm not sure on darts but some animals use one parasite to keep the more dangerous ones at bay. so its great to try to make your frogs as healthy as possible but but i don't think you have to worry about getting ever thing, putting them in too sterile of an environment may cause a weak immune system. again I'm no expert and if I'm wrong then i would be very interested to know the actual facts.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

sounddrive said:


> I'm not a professional but I'm pretty sure that there is know use trying to eliminate all parasites. obviously you want your frogs to remain healthy but even in the wild they carry some amount of parasites and in some animals this can actually be beneficial too I'm not sure on darts but some animals use one parasite to keep the more dangerous ones at bay. so its great to try to make your frogs as healthy as possible but but i don't think you have to worry about getting ever thing, putting them in too sterile of an environment may cause a weak immune system. again I'm no expert and if I'm wrong then i would be very interested to know the actual facts.


i disagree respectfully. I see no benifit to parasites in darts. a clean cricket source and termite source has nothing to do with a sterile dart environment inside the viv. obviously we need to keep microfauna within the viv, but not parasites. Not everything can be sterile. There is no benefit to a dart with any kind of parasite IMO. In the wild it is completely different and we are losing dart populations due to disease and environmental factors such as their habitats being destroyed. kristy


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

no punt intended i admire you efforts to acquire the best for your frogs, i would like to see some research on non harmful parasites if there is such a thing. i agree that introducing parasites can be very bad, but i just wonder how dart populations did so well prior to human interference. such as habitat destruction, introduction of foreign diseases and parasites. in the wild they had to learn to coexist with some forms of internal infestations. like i said I'm no expert and am always open to suggestions. best of luck with your efforts to acquire the food you are searching for. dont get me wrong i test and treat all of my animals per asn protocals but one cant help but wonder.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

sounddrive said:


> no punt intended i admire you efforts to acquire the best for your frogs, i would like to see some research on non harmful parasites if there is such a thing. i agree that introducing parasites can be very bad, but i just wonder how dart populations did so well prior to human interference. such as habitat destruction, introduction of foreign diseases and parasites. in the wild they had to learn to coexist with some forms of internal infestations. like i said I'm no expert and am always open to suggestions. best of luck with your efforts to acquire the food you are searching for. dont get me wrong i test and treat all of my animals per asn protocals but one cant help but wonder.


i agree...wondering and inquiring with research is all we can hope to do. possibly it is us that has ruined their habitats and our greedy ways. big bummer. yeah i hope i can find more info for the feeders i was asking about. thanks. didnt take your post in a bad way at all kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Depending on their rearing, crickets can harbor coccidia or salmonella. This seems to be mostly due to the use of dirty eggcrate material for cricket housing that was also used for egg shipping. But - there are over 2000 identified species of _Eimeriorina_ (suborder containing most of the known veterinary and medical pathogens), with most being species specific. So, it is unclear the risk that an avian coccidian could infect a dendrobatid. I have also read reports that crickets were important vectors for the spread of coccidia in Bearded Dragons, although I don't know how much truth there is to that.

Kristy - another very viable feeding option that may work to stimulate feeding in the short term (as well as to offer a varied nutrient profile to your other frogs) is to feed the FF larvae. There are a couple of posts on the board about how to collect them. When in a writhing mass, IME they have elicited a very strong feeding response.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

rozdaboff said:


> Depending on their rearing, crickets can harbor coccidia or salmonella. This seems to be mostly due to the use of dirty eggcrate material for cricket housing that was also used for egg shipping. But - there are over 2000 identified species of _Eimeriorina_ (suborder containing most of the known veterinary and medical pathogens), with most being species specific. So, it is unclear the risk that an avian coccidian could infect a dendrobatid. I have also read reports that crickets were important vectors for the spread of coccidia in Bearded Dragons, although I don't know how much truth there is to that.
> 
> Kristy - another very viable feeding option that may work to stimulate feeding in the short term (as well as to offer a varied nutrient profile to your other frogs) is to feed the FF larvae. There are a couple of posts on the board about how to collect them. When in a writhing mass, IME they have elicited a very strong feeding response.


yes my exact objection to crix. but a reliable parasite free source maybe with brand new egg cartonscrate whatever they are called?

tried the ff larvae...believe me, i have fruit flies reared just for the larvae. i just scape off with a plastic disposable spoon. kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Kristy - I think you may be asking for a little too much. I don't think there is any feasible way that a cricket dealer is going to offer "parasite-free" crickets. You can inquire whether or not that the manufacturer uses new or "recycled" egg carton material. If not, does that mean they are parasite-free, probably not. The important thing is whether or not they are free of parasites that can infect and cause disease in your frogs.

If you are really concerned about pathogens from the husbandry of the crickets - I would say raise your own. Do as Gary mentioned - buy some adult females and let them lay eggs. There is the chance that bacteria could be deposited in the laying medium, and then transferred back to the baby crickets once they hatch - but I don't see any way around this. Then I would raise those crickets up to adults - and have them serve as the founders of your "clean" line. But, I really think this is overkill.

Just something to ponder, did you buy "parasite-free" fruit flies?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

rozdaboff said:


> Kristy - I think you may be asking for a little too much. I don't think there is any feasible way that a cricket dealer is going to offer "parasite-free" crickets. You can inquire whether or not that the manufacturer uses new or "recycled" egg carton material. If not, does that mean they are parasite-free, probably not. The important thing is whether or not they are free of parasites that can infect and cause disease in your frogs.
> 
> If you are really concerned about pathogens from the husbandry of the crickets - I would say raise your own. Do as Gary mentioned - buy some adult females and let them lay eggs. There is the chance that bacteria could be deposited in the laying medium, and then transferred back to the baby crickets once they hatch - but I don't see any way around this. Then I would raise those crickets up to adults - and have them serve as the founders of your "clean" line. But, I really think this is overkill.
> 
> Just something to ponder, did you buy "parasite-free" fruit flies?


completely understand. lets say i am looking for a more reliable clean source then. yes i realize i need to start with some adults and breed in container and then dispose of those so i can potentially breed clean crix, maybe overkill....but i'm always overkill lol any idea what are good termite feeders and how to do? those were what dr. frye stated darts would rarely turn down and if i could fin d some, i may have a chance with this skinny feller. kristy


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

i dont know how you have him house but if it can see any movement you might want to try solitary confinement it worked for a wc campana auratus i have he was skinny for a year i covered his tank in cardboard and he fattened right up and i actually heard calling for the first time a few nights ago. also there is alway metronidazole might not be spelled right but it will give a non eating frog a life saveing appetite. i know doc Frey sells this ready to use.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

sounddrive said:


> i dont know how you have him house but if it can see any movement you might want to try solitary confinement it worked for a wc campana auratus i have he was skinny for a year i covered his tank in cardboard and he fattened right up and i actually heard calling for the first time a few nights ago. also there is alway metronidazole might not be spelled right but it will give a non eating frog a life saveing appetite. i know doc Frey sells this ready to use.


dr. frye put him on met and baytril. he also has been taken from large quarantine where he would just lay on floor and placed into a 190 0z quarantine. set-up per dr.frye's instructions which all my other darts seem to do just fine. on the upside, since confining him to this and adding cardboard like stated, he is up and about moving around. just looked. still no fecals frustrating. kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I don't have any direct experience with termites. But, I have heard they are difficult to maintain as a breeding colony unless you find the right colony members and offer them the right conditions. You don't see them for sale much at all - and usually if you do, they are people who collect them from the wild. There are a couple of board members with experience breeding termites who can maybe chime in.

But given your situation, think about it this way -

You have a frog that is skinny and not eating. The recommendation was made to try termites. If I were you, I wouldn't worry about the origin of the termites. Try and find whatever termites you can to offer as food. I would also try other feeders (phoenix worms, waxworms, etc) - anything you can do to try and get food in this guy. If it makes it - then worry about treating the potential sequelae of getting him eating later. "Parasite-free" termites won't do this frog a lick of good if it dies before you find them.

There are also other supportive therapies you can do (soaking in ARS), as well as force-feeding a liquid diet if necessary.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I was thinking the exact same as rozdaboff.

Spend too long on this and you will have a dead frog from starvation. At the point of an animal not eating at all. I don't know how long this has been going on as I don't think you stated how long. However, giving days of posting in a thread. Then how long to mail order? Then how long to culture? Then hope he eats it....

That's bringing very close to being a last attempt. Whether I have kept darts or not I have dealt with alot of animals with appetite issues among other sicknesses including reptiles and amphibians. The last thing you want to do is put all your hope in 1 thing and spend too long on it. Because if it doesn't work you won't get a chance to devise a plan B.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> I was thinking the exact same as rozdaboff.
> 
> Spend too long on this and you will have a dead frog from starvation. At the point of an animal not eating at all. I don't know how long this has been going on as I don't think you stated how long. However, giving days of posting in a thread. Then how long to mail order? Then how long to culture? Then hope he eats it....
> 
> That's bringing very close to being a last attempt. Whether I have kept darts or not I have dealt with alot of animals with appetite issues among other sicknesses including reptiles and amphibians. The last thing you want to do is put all your hope in 1 thing and spend too long on it. Because if it doesn't work you won't get a chance to devise a plan B.


i agree with razbadoff. i have gone through all measures. i will have to consult dr. frye about any other ways even force feeding I dont like crix, but i have my son who has a ton of firebellies and my sugar gliders also like them so that could be a feasible option to me plus variety for the darts yeah it seems not much has been around about termites, but dr.frye did state they are better than crix in his opinion and said to try if i could find a source as they get rarely turned down. not that i would enjoy them in the house lol. But whatever it takes to try and help the feller. will consult dr.frye in the morning. kristy


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Another thing that will rarely get turned down is an appropriatly sized waxworm...trouble is you have to raise them yourself, and they grow super fast. If you are patient enough, you can pick waxworms small enough for thumbnail froglets.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

Ive raised termites for about 2 years now i don't know if it was the species that i was breeding but they were very simple to breed. the problem occurs when the queen is in need of replacement the workers will grow wings to relocate and in the home that can cause a pretty significant problem. so as for breeding its a risky task but not hard all they need is a steady supply of near rotting wood and a moist environment and they seemed to thrive. now this could just be with the species i had i don't know a bunch about other species.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Again I would try the FF larva or flour beetle larva. Both have worked for a number of people to fatten up frogs.

Im not sure there are many people breeding termites and anything from outside would be try at your own risk.

The thought that any food, even the food we breed is completely parasite free seems rather far fetched.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Kristy in my second post I put a link to supposedly "the only place" to actually order termites.

At least that was the impression I got from that thread and a short google search. The guy who got mites may have come from the supplier or more than likely (as mites killing their cultures would be counter productive) already had mites somewhere he kept the termites.

Edit: I will mention that it seems pretty expensive but if it were me and it were the only choice I'd give it a try.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

kyle1745 said:


> Again I would try the FF larva or flour beetle larva. Both have worked for a number of people to fatten up frogs.
> 
> Im not sure there are many people breeding termites and anything from outside would be try at your own risk.
> 
> The thought that any food, even the food we breed is completely parasite free seems rather far fetched.


yeah i'll try with the ff larva...see what i can do. i was just curious if there was a way to keep things as clean as possible. i'll maybe get some flour bettle larva also. see if that gains the fellers attention kristy


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Flour beetle larva are a love em or hate em. I have some frogs that love them and some that wont touch them. My terbillis love them.


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## -Jex- (Mar 29, 2008)

Kristy, 
Here is a cricket vendor. I don't know if thats what you were looking for but maybe it will help. I know they sell a lot of crickets. American Cricket Ranch | Your Complete Source for Live Foods


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## chadbandman (Dec 3, 2007)

If you want the best crix try Ghanns. There place is clean. We've used them for a long time.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

wow so many options. kyle i will keep that in mind about the flour beetles. crix replies...i'll do my research. thanks all for trying to help dr.frye will just have to see if there is anything else we can try. stubborn tinc! grrrr! its frustrating when the issue is lack of appetite. he probably wants his viv but q-tine isnt over and now that he is so rail thin....i dont want to put him in one until i get him to eat. guess thats the smartest thing to do? kristy


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