# Shipping dissaster, solarte pumilio arrived dead.



## antoniolugo (Apr 8, 2011)

Hi, this last October 21st I ordered two solarte pumilio from someone in this forum, which arrived dead. I would really appreciate any opinions on what could have been the cause of their death.
They where sent by USPS with three PHASE 22 packs in a styrofoam box. Inside the box came a deli cup with wet paper two frogs and a plant.
One was dead under the paper and the other one between the plant and the paper.


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

the second one looks like he got smothered by the paper towel

sorry for your loss..


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Pretty sure I was scheduled to receive the others from him, he refunded because of what happened with yours. He's not a forum member though as far as I know, the ad was posted through a reputable member here. 

The most likely reason is that they were between 2-3 months old, shipping stress with young pumilio is bad enough during warmer weather... I'm sure the paper being on top of that one frog didn't help either. I specifically asked for "hold at facility" FedEx, frogs and especially young pumilio rolling around in a USPS mail truck all day has a much higher chance of ending badly... especially in the cold. Were you home to accept the package when it arrived? If it sat outside for a few hours, that was likely the kicker, if they weren't already gone.

After seeing this, I doubt I'll consider having pumilio that young shipped in the future, regardless of the temperatures. Sorry for your loss, this always sucks to see.


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## antoniolugo (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks guys.
My girlfriend was at my place to recive them. As soon as they arrived she opened the box and they were dead. Maybe the age like you say didn't help either.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

When the box was opened what was the temps inside, cold or hot? At first glance it looks like they smothered under the contents in the cup, if they didn't pass from being too cold. I don't think it is age related.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

It looks like they were squashed by the plant and paper towel. And seeing the size of the container and it being usps and how much they probably got jumbled around that was probably their demise. The container shouldve been smaller with a different type of plant.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

billschwinn said:


> When the box was opened what was the temps inside, cold or hot? At first glance it looks like they smothered under the contents in the cup, if they didn't pass from being too cold. I don't think it is age related.


Possibly not, but he did say "the oldest is almost 3 months" when I asked... so probably 1.5-2.5 months, pretty young for a pumilio to be shipped, or most other frogs for that matter.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Several things contributing. Container too big causing too much jostling. Flat paper towels trap and suffocate. They are too young to ship.
A thumbnail, depending on size, could possibly ship at 1.5 months, but I would NEVER purchase a Pumilio or any eggfeeder before the 4 month mark. Let alone ship them.
Sorry for your loss.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I have shipped pums before at an average age of 7-8 weeks oow. Age can be a guide, however the size matters more in my opinion and experience. I have seen many frogs posted here in the past that should have been 2 times the size they were for the age being claimed. I have to say it could have been several things causing their loss, I think the paper towel and large container size were the likely cause in my opinion, however, no one can say for sure, just a sad loss, unfotunately they happen sometimes.


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

This is really sad. It's definetly hard to determine the reason for their death. Specially since there are many contributing factors. Age, size of the container, temperatures, etc. I personally believe they were tossed around by the carrier. At that point, the paper towel might have left a gap for the bottom frog to sneek in, this might be due to the bigger container. Perhaps a similar scenario occured with the top frog, since you state it was squeezed in between the paper towel and the plant. It's quite unfortunate. I just hope that you already contacted the seller whom ever it might be, give him/her a chance to make it right. Good luck.


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## antoniolugo (Apr 8, 2011)

From what I can remember, the temps were alright wasnt cold neither hot. I also tough the container was too big, so they must have been bouncing around.
The seller told me they were between 3 and 4 months old for what I can remember. I informed the seller about the incident.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

I disagree about the size of the container causing death. It looks to be an 8 oz container. I have shipped and received froglets several times in those containers with no problems. I would say it was most certainly the wet paper towel that smothered the frog. It boggles my mind, however, that people will ship without doing their research on how to ship safely. I read every shipping post I could before the first time I shipped. A paper towel is completely unnecessary. Just a couple squirts of water, with leaves, will keep it plenty moist. sphagnum, if put in the container, will help, but it needs to be a VERY small amount so it won't smother the frog. I prefer just a bunch of fresh cut vining type plants.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Here is a MUST READ for anyone shipping:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/71269-shipping-standards.html


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

For these reasons I rather not ship, pluse I hate waiting, and the shipping prices are too much. You pay so much money TO HAVE IT SHIPPED AND MARKED *FRAGILE* and your package is handled like a football. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but when I use the automated machine at USPS, it will not accept your package if you are shipping live animals. Don't QUOTE if I'm wrong. One of those guys does look like he was squashed by the paper towel. The paper towel also looks heavy like it was soaked in water. That towel looks like it was folded a few times. Sorry for your loss.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Did a little research on the USPS, for their live animal shipping policies. Here it is:

Mailing Live Animals
Live animal shipments (including poultry, reptiles, and bees) have very specific packaging requirements. Though you can drop them off at any Post Office, it might take longer to ship depending on the availability of transportation. With a few exceptions, pets and warm-blooded animals such as cats, gerbils, hamsters, mice, and dogs can’t go in the mail.
Live animal shipments using Express Mail® should expect a 2- to 3-day transport, so try shipping early in the week and avoiding holiday weeks with limited acceptance days and times. Express Mail postage will not be refunded unless the delivery or attempted delivery is more than 3 days after the day of mailing.

What do you guys think?


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

B-NICE said:


> For these reasons I rather not ship, pluse I hate waiting, and the shipping prices are too much. You pay so much money TO HAVE IT SHIPPED AND MARKED *FRAGILE* and your package is handled like a football. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but when I use the automated machine at USPS, it will not accept your package if you are shipping live animals. Don't QUOTE if I'm wrong. One of those guys does look like he was squashed by the paper towel. The paper towel also looks heavy like it was soaked in water. That towel looks like it was folded a few times. Sorry for your loss.


Actually, the USPS shipping rates are pretty reasonable, you only have to wait 24 hours, and if you are buying several froglets, it's only a couple bucks per frog. For many of us, who don't live in the middle of a large urban area like NYC, the only way to get frogs is to have them shipped.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

lincolnrailers said:


> Actually, the USPS shipping rates are pretty reasonable, you only have to wait 24 hours, and if you are buying several froglets, it's only a couple bucks per frog. For many of us, who don't live in the middle of a large urban area like NYC, the only way to get frogs is to have them shipped.


I'm sure USPS is cheaper compared to fedex and ups. Living in NYC, being a froger is tough too lol. There is only 1 store here that sales Darts with a nice mark up. I guess most states are limited to 1 exotic store if that. However I guess you are right. Do you guys have any stores in IL?


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

B-NICE said:


> Did a little research on the USPS, for their live animal shipping policies. Here it is:
> 
> Mailing Live Animals
> Live animal shipments (including poultry, reptiles, and bees) have very specific packaging requirements. Though you can drop them off at any Post Office, it might take longer to ship depending on the availability of transportation. With a few exceptions, pets and warm-blooded animals such as cats, gerbils, hamsters, mice, and dogs cant go in the mail.
> ...


I would say don't use express, use priority overnight and have it held for pick up. It's usually right around $38. I'll drop the package off at 445 and it's at the post office usually before 11am the next day. 

To the OP, sorry for your loss.. Hopefully you get some replacements shipped properly to you soon!


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm sure some pet stores in Illinois carry darts, but if you want particular species, well, that's harder! There are several major breeders/dendroboard members in the Chicago area, but that's still a 2 and a half hour drive. Patrick Nabors is 2 hours the other direction. Shipping is more of a convienence thing. And most shipping goes just fine. Unfortunately for the OP, his didn't. (although I'd say the packing is definitely to blame, not the shipping company)

Interestingly, I shipped some froglets to NY on Monday through USPS for the first time ever (always use FEDEX), and they didn't arrive on time. In fact, they were 18 hours late, but still alive! (lucky it's unseasonably warm) Even though it's twice the price, FEDEX is worth it if you are buying expensive frogs.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Its a small world, I met some people off here that are close to job. This is a great net working place. I just dont know what happened to the NYC frogging group, that would make my life easier lol.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

lincolnrailers said:


> Interestingly, I shipped some froglets to NY on Monday through USPS for the first time ever (always use FEDEX), and they didn't arrive on time. In fact, they were 18 hours late, but still alive! (lucky it's unseasonably warm) Even though it's twice the price, FEDEX is worth it if you are buying expensive frogs.


USPS lost my last frog shipment through them for 10 days. I only ship frogs FedEx now. Everyone has different experiences through different shippers, but FedEx has done well with mine. I only tried USPS because of the expense but almost paid the ultimate price. Amazingly, they survived the 10 days and are currently breeding in New York.


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## antoniolugo (Apr 8, 2011)

Tuckinrim8 said:


> I would say don't use express, use priority overnight and have it held for pick up. It's usually right around $38. I'll drop the package off at 445 and it's at the post office usually before 11am the next day.
> 
> To the OP, sorry for your loss.. Hopefully you get some replacements shipped properly to you soon!


Thanks!.... The guy that sold them to me is not going to give me any replacement, neither he is going to give me my money back. That pretty much makes the situation suck a lot more.


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## antoniolugo (Apr 8, 2011)

lincolnrailers said:


> I'm sure some pet stores in Illinois carry darts, but if you want particular species, well, that's harder! There are several major breeders/dendroboard members in the Chicago area, but that's still a 2 and a half hour drive. Patrick Nabors is 2 hours the other direction. Shipping is more of a convienence thing. And most shipping goes just fine. Unfortunately for the OP, his didn't. (although I'd say the packing is definitely to blame, not the shipping company)
> 
> Interestingly, I shipped some froglets to NY on Monday through USPS for the first time ever (always use FEDEX), and they didn't arrive on time. In fact, they were 18 hours late, but still alive! (lucky it's unseasonably warm) Even though it's twice the price, FEDEX is worth it if you are buying expensive frogs.


The frogs arrived on time, so I also think the packing is the one to blame.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

antoniolugo said:


> Thanks!.... The guy that sold them to me is not going to give me any replacement, neither he is going to give me my money back. That pretty much makes the situation suck a lot more.


That sucks! You should open a feedback page for him and let us all know there, who he is so that everyone can avoid being ripped off by him. Don't mention his name here, but if you start a feedback page for him, you can let us know to go look for it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

antoniolugo said:


> Thanks!.... The guy that sold them to me is not going to give me any replacement, neither he is going to give me my money back. That pretty much makes the situation suck a lot more.


Did they have a TOS (terms of service) statement? Did they specify no live arrival or did they specify specific conditions under which they guarantee live arrival? If you paid with paypal you can also open a dispute with paypal about it. 

Ed


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

If it is the same person I almost purchased some solarte from then they may not have a DB account. You may want to contact the DB member who posted the ad for the seller as he is a respected DB member and he may be able to talk the seller into taking care of you in a responsible manner..


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Thats seriously F'd up.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Wow, I'm spoiled, I have at least 4 exotic reptile stores that carry darts within 40 miles of me.


Very sorry to hear about your loss


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Man, I'm soooo sorry for your loss


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Tuckinrim8 said:


> If it is the same person I almost purchased some solarte from then they may not have a DB account. You may want to contact the DB member who posted the ad for the seller as he is a respected DB member and he may be able to talk the seller into taking care of you in a responsible manner..


Indeed.

And PM a MOD about this please. 

Posting for someone else is against the UE.

Live arrival guarantee is a hobby standard.

Shawn


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Can someone PM me who the seller is?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ before EVERYONE starts asking for PM 

Do the right thing and start a vendor feedback thread.

and let this one die.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

C'mon, I want that name for my "list"!


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## antoniolugo (Apr 8, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> That sucks! You should open a feedback page for him and let us all know there, who he is so that everyone can avoid being ripped off by him. Don't mention his name here, but if you start a feedback page for him, you can let us know to go look for it.


Thanks Doug, I will try to do that later, once I know how should I handle the situation cause I'm new and I don't really know all the rules, so any help I would really appreciate 



Ed said:


> Did they have a TOS (terms of service) statement? Did they specify no live arrival or did they specify specific conditions under which they guarantee live arrival? If you paid with paypal you can also open a dispute with paypal about it.
> 
> Ed


When I email him about the frogs he never mention anything about live arrival, but I thought that it was included. In an email I sent him after the death he told me that he never heard of live arrival. But its my fault that I didn't make sure before. Also I did pay with paypal.



Tuckinrim8 said:


> If it is the same person I almost purchased some solarte from then they may not have a DB account. You may want to contact the DB member who posted the ad for the seller as he is a respected DB member and he may be able to talk the seller into taking care of you in a responsible manner..


It could be the same, the post is of a reputable member on the board, but the seller is not on it.



sports_doc said:


> Indeed.
> 
> And PM a MOD about this please.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will try to contact the member that posted the add.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Tuckinrim8 said:


> If it is the same person I almost purchased some solarte from then they may not have a DB account. You may want to contact the DB member who posted the ad for the seller as he is a respected DB member and he may be able to talk the seller into taking care of you in a responsible manner..


Just checked on this, op of classified is going to contact seller re resolution.


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## antoniolugo (Apr 8, 2011)

stemcellular said:


> Just checked on this, op of classified is going to contact seller re resolution.


Thanks for all the help I'm getting from all the members on this board! I really appreciate the support!


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Just a .02 is it not against the UA on this board to post for another non- member in classifieds?


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## froggynator (Sep 7, 2011)

Oh my, this is terrible! i'm sorry for your loss


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Bcs TX said:


> Just a .02 is it not against the UA on this board to post for another non- member in classifieds?


USER AGREEMENT Under "General Norms" ... Item F: Posting for another member or non-member, or posing as, or using someone else's account to post is prohibited.


Now, this thread should be done

Further posts should happen with proper Vendor Feedback


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

I was the one who posted the mentioned ad. The vendor in question is Dean Lykos (his email was listed on the ad). A few months ago I loaned some frogs to him while I was toning down my tanks & relocating, and they had some offspring during that time. After taking the adults back, he asked me if I could post the offspring for sale him and so I did. I normally don't post frogs for sale for other people, and regret having done so.

I was unaware most of this was going on until I was notified of this post. I also was unaware that the solarte were that young, after looking at the pictures above it's obvious the frogs were not shipped properly. I contacted Dean to try and make things right and haven't heard back on progress yet. Antoniolugo - please pm me any other details so I can keep you posted as I work towards getting you back your money.

Moderators: I didn't read the user agreement before posting and wasn't aware of that part of the agreement. I'm sorry about that and this situation is a pretty good example of why it shouldn't be done - I accept responsibility for my actions so do what you need to do.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Opened to allow Mike to comment. Please no further discussion for now. I will address his comments, and ask the OP to open a Feedback thread regarding the selling so that everyone interested may be aware.

Thank you.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

This has been resolved: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/75348-dean-lykos.html


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