# ANybody else see these!?!?!?



## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=14&de=308109

fifty bucks...have i been out of the loop for a LONG time or something?
Or is this "perfect representation" really an ad for spotted auratus?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

lots of WC/farm raised pumilio are coming in right now. it is driving prices way down on a lot of the more common pumilio morphs.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

I emailed Jason at KCRD and his reply was that the frogs for sale in this ad were auratus.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Hmmm.... l'm still a ident rookie, but that makes we wonder about the "The photo above is a perfect representation of the available frogs. Individual photos are not available" claim. My bookie says bet pumilio in the photo.


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

I suspected they were auratus, but the picture of a histrionicus made me do a double take...
'perfect representation'....
who would have thought that there was a red, dwarf, auratus morph?


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

They said the frogs are from Tanzania in their edit. Which wouldn't make them any form of Dendrobates at all. I bet they are the same "farm raised" pumilio that have been coming in, the picture however is of a histrionicus


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

The frog pictured appears to be a Histo, I hate when these importers cant use pictures of their actual frogs. If they actually do have the frog pictured for sale, sign me up for a dozen!


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Ben_C said:


> I who would have thought that there was a red, dwarf, auratus morph?


lol


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## Guest (May 4, 2005)

Dendrobates come from Central and South America, not Africa where Tanzania is located. Nuff Said!

Also, I'd be very suspect of any vendor that can't supply photos of the animals he offers, nevermind a photo of a actual individual.

<rant off!>


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

If you are a vendor and can't take photographs to show the 'markings' on a small frog, you seriously need to invest in a better camera. Hypothetically, truly identifying a frog and advertising it with an actual picture will boost sales, lower customers hesitance, and quickly pay for the invested camera.
- Although the Tanzania reference was pretty funny. A Tanzanian auratus pictured as a histrio but assumed to be a pumilio.... talk about some funny stuff.
Kasey


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

exclusivehawk said:


> - Although the Tanzania reference was pretty funny. A Tanzanian auratus pictured as a histrio but assumed to be a pumilio.... talk about some funny stuff.
> Kasey


I wouldn't call it funny, I would call it fraud (intentional or not).


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

I saw that ad today and did a doubletake, because I looked at the picture and thought that histos were for sale before I read the description. I did the same thing yesterday where they are using another stock photo for pumilio in their ad. I think this ad is for ancon hill auratus, but it is really anyone's guess. I cannot understand why it is so difficult for some vendors to take a couple pictures of the animals they are trying to sell, in the end it would save them headaches and complaints. 

Ed


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## Guest (May 4, 2005)

It's because they don't have to photos. I pushed the guy for a pic in email and he said that he already had 25 sold and everyone else didn't need a photo...I'm still waiting to hear back from him. 

Stay tuned for an update in vendor feedback.


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## PAULSCHUMANN (Apr 20, 2005)

That's definetely a histrionicus, but not from tanzania, unless it's from a breeder(not likely). be careful there have been alot of fraudulent reptile related scams coming out of or having to do with africa lately.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

...


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## PAULSCHUMANN (Apr 20, 2005)

very good point...why the h#ll would you import auratus from tanzania when you can get them from central america all day long for half the price or less. I don't know, this guys ad just doesn add up, too many holes in it if you ask me, red auratus, pics of histros, african darts, low price, sold 25 without pics????????? etc. etc...I hope he stops by this forum.


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## dpotter1 (Feb 29, 2004)

We can only hope that everyone thinking of buying these frogs stops buy this site before sending them money. I was interested, but I just could not make it add up in my head. I could not buy frogs from anyone other then a well know breeder or hobbiest without a picture.

Doug


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

If you're interested in posting feedback, you may want to try here:

http://www.reptirank.com/index.php?a=stats&id=270
http://www.reptirank.com/index.php?a=ra ... 70&do=form

Found it off their website


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

I NEVER KNEW THAT HISTRIONICUS was even on the market i think i deserve the right to write in caps for that part lol they have always interested me


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

It is the same pic, you can tell by the mark above the rear right leg, KCRD just cropped the pic to remove the name. I will never do business with them.


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## Guest (May 5, 2005)

I agree with geckguy, it is definitly the same photo. I was going to get some things but now I am not.


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

What i don't understand is that it would have been even easier to find a picture of an actual auratus, and nobody would have been any wiser that he didn't take the picture. Instead he posts a picture of one of the more desireable and difficult to obtain dart frogs that looks nothing like an auratus.


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## Tony Kim (Apr 26, 2005)

That would have been awesome, if it was real. I guess I can dream.


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## El_Rana (May 29, 2004)

Nice work Blort ! 8)


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

*oopppps*

i read the ad after 1030 this is what he said. 

The following was added on 05/04/05
I have been getting several phone calls since this ad went up and want to clarify that these are not the species that sells for $400-500. These came in on the last Tanzania shipment as Dendrobates Auratus, but I have been told that these are not Auratus. After speaking to several Dart Frog people, we aren't sure which these are. They do have marking much like the frog pictured. I tried taking photos myself but my camera would not pick up the detail in the spotting on this frogs. I hope this helps with any confusion


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## DaFrogMan (Oct 8, 2004)

I don't look at the kingsnake classifieds anymore because I don't feel that I can trust a lot of the people that advertize there.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Kingsnake has taken the ad down.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*See this ad*

Too bad no one on this forum lives in KC and can stop by to see what this is all about. My guess is the red spotted walking frog (Kassina M ???). This guy did say a few things in his ad about what the frog was not, so other than using a photo he was probalby not allowed to use....
Rather than be constructive and find out the facts a bunch of assumptions were posted, unlike the hybrid situation the guy did not come out and say he intentionally did anything that we all feel is reprehensible.
Somebody near this guy please find out some info.......then we can tie him to a fire ant mound and pour honey on his eyes.


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## DaFrogMan (Oct 8, 2004)

That's why I like the classifieds on dendroboard. People like that haven't found this place yet. I hope they don't, but maybe it's just a matter of time :?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

If people like that find the board, they would be eaten alive...literally! :lol: I'm sure some have already tried, but are quickly schooled on business ethics and given the boot. I think this board has a reputation of good knowledgeable froggers that discourages many shady people from ever trying to begin with.


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## DaFrogMan (Oct 8, 2004)

dmartin72 said:


> If people like that find the board, they would be eaten alive...literally! :lol:


Its a good thing we have good people here, and great moderators.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

I had emailed this guy, and here is the messages I received:

"Well they came in on the Tanzania shipment. They were labeled as dart frogs.

Jason Hormann
http://www.KCRD.com
Owner/Operator

-----Original Message-----
From: eddy parker [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 3:39 PM
To: Jason Hormann
Subject: RE: Message about: Beautiful Spotted Poison Arrow Frogs

Are they dart frogs???? You mention they are from tanzania in your ad, but there are no dart frogs in tanzania. ???

Ed

Jason Hormann <[email protected]> wrote:

They are Red in color. I do have about 10 left. I still don't know what
species they are. Shipping is $50 for 1-10 to your zip code.

Thanks,
Jason Hormann
http://www.KCRD.com
Owner/Operator

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 2:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Message about: Beautiful Spotted Poison Arrow Frogs

I am interested in a group of these frogs. Any idea what species they
are? They are a red color? Please let me know if you have any left, I
am interested. How much for shipping to 84040"

So, he does say that they are red in color, makes me believe they are not auratus. I wish he would have just taken a pic of them. What kind of a reptile/amphibian company doesn't have a decent digital camera? What if they were something rare? lol, probably really some type of toad though :roll: 

Ed Parker


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## Guest (May 5, 2005)

He hasn't supplied a pic yet. I told him I'd rescue five from him if I could ID species at least. Here is what he had to say (Jason).

"I understand you wanting a photo, I would too, however I have sold 25 of
these today and am down to my last 10. I have about 5 people wanting
these last ten including you and they don't need any photos."

I think he knows he seriously screwed up. He hasn't replied to a further inquiry I made. what I can't believe is that he's still trying to sell them without even knowing what type of frog he's got. He just possibly screwed 25 suckers, and he just keeps going? He must not know how small the world is, unless he doesn't mind that his business will solely consist of one time buyers who don't know any better.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

i emailed this guy once about some mantellas...he had from the picture of them very nice rarer yellow black and orange painteds. he couldn't tell me if the ones he had looked the same as the picture or not. also...he stated $50 to ship. i've never paid that much to ship. i'm in FL and have had animals shipped from CA and it hasn't been that expensive.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

$50 to ship is not out of line...consistently telling people that he/she isn't sure if the frog in the picture is the same one he/she is going to send is the problem.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*anyone see these*

The dart frog hobby has a lot of parallels with the discus hobby, it is so specialized and the animals so specific in their requirements that it keeps most commercial type people out of these markets....unless they are specific to darts, like Saurian. Any serious hobbyists would almost never buy from that type of source but on occasion importers do us favors by importing wild caught stock even though they know very little about darts or how to take care of them. Anyone would have jumped on these frogs if they were what the picture was, I believe the guy made an honest mistake in trying to represent something he was selling he just had no idea what he had. I would hate to think somebody trying to run a legit business would be that deceptive, but who knows??
It's good someone posted his response for info request, it seemed a bit questionable, love to here more or see what he was/is selling.
Mark


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Have you seen these*

I will admit that i would never buy from one of these suppliers unless I or someone I know could hand pick out the animals. To most if a frog is alive it is sellable. Thank god we have importers we can trust without seeing....Marcus Breece, Will at the Frog Farm.
If we did find out this guy intentionally misled people I would advocate in seriousness the fire ant hill solution.


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## Guest (May 6, 2005)

After reading this thread I thought it would be wise to come in and at least explain what happened. Thanks to those that made me aware of my "roasting".

I should start out and say that frogs are not my fortay, and that I do most of my business with reptiles. I recieved a shipment from Tanzania that to my suprise included these frogs. Although I will admit that I know about as much about Dart Frogs as I do about speaking Greek, I do know that there are no native species of Dart Frogs in Tanzania. However I have recieved some strange shipments before that were unexplainable, such as a small group of Green Anacondas that came in with a shipment from South East Asia. I read the packing list and they were listed as Dendrobates Auratus. I tried taking some pictures of the frogs but my macro setting on my camera has a lot to be desired for so I then started looking for a picture online that matched these frogs as close as possible. The photo I selected was the closest I could come up with. Not until reading this thread did I know that the photo was a copy right protected picture, as I would never intentionally use someones photos with out permission. However, I was quickly informed by many from this forum that the frog I posted was infact a highly saught after frog and that I need to fix my thread. 

With out dragging this on any longer, I spoke with a guy here in KC that has bred many different species of Mantellas and Dart Frogs and he said he could not for 100% identify them but he was sure they were a species of Dart. I would never misrepresent any of my animals intentionally. I don't do business that way, this is why I posted an edit to the ad so quickly.

Many of you will say what you will about me and my business practices, that's fine, everyone has their opinions. However I will say that I know that this business has plenty of crooks in it and I will not be made out to be one of them. I have plenty of people that know me in this business that will vouch for me and my actions. I am a moderator on Bob Clarks forum, as well as being a co-promotor for a couple different reptile shows here in the mid-west. 

In closing if I offended anyone I am sorry, I was just trying to move some cool frogs that I couldn't get a good picture of and couldn't identify.


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## Guest (May 6, 2005)

After reading this thread I thought it would be wise to come in and at least explain what happened. Thanks to those that made me aware of my "roasting".

I should start out and say that frogs are not my fortay, and that I do most of my business with reptiles. I recieved a shipment from Tanzania that to my suprise included these frogs. Although I will admit that I know about as much about Dart Frogs as I do about speaking Greek, I do know that there are no native species of Dart Frogs in Tanzania. However I have recieved some strange shipments before that were unexplainable, such as a small group of Green Anacondas that came in with a shipment from South East Asia. I read the packing list and they were listed as Dendrobates Auratus. I tried taking some pictures of the frogs but my macro setting on my camera has a lot to be desired for so I then started looking for a picture online that matched these frogs as close as possible. The photo I selected was the closest I could come up with. Not until reading this thread did I know that the photo was a copy right protected picture, as I would never intentionally use someones photos with out permission. However, I was quickly informed by many from this forum that the frog I posted was infact a highly saught after frog and that I need to fix my thread. 

With out dragging this on any longer, I spoke with a guy here in KC that has bred many different species of Mantellas and Dart Frogs and he said he could not for 100% identify them but he was sure they were a species of Dart. I would never misrepresent any of my animals intentionally. I don't do business that way, this is why I posted an edit to the ad so quickly.

Many of you will say what you will about me and my business practices, that's fine, everyone has their opinions. However I will say that I know that this business has plenty of crooks in it and I will not be made out to be one of them. I have plenty of people that know me in this business that will vouch for me and my actions. I am a moderator on Bob Clarks forum, as well as being a co-promotor for a couple different reptile shows here in the mid-west. 

In closing if I offended anyone I am sorry, I was just trying to move some cool frogs that I couldn't get a good picture of and couldn't identify.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Thanks for explaining that too us KCRD!!! I do understand that a lot of the wholesaler's don't really know a whole lot about amphibians. I was just joking about the toad bit in my previous post :wink: . If you can get a pic of them though, maybe borrow a camera or something, I tihkn I can speak for all of us that we are very CURIOUS as too what frogs you did have. Thanks though, take care

Ed


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## aneides (Apr 12, 2005)

*cool frogs?*

Kudos to you for entering the forum, if you were really trying to pull a fast one you probably wouldn't have. I know that wierd stuff can happen in the importing business. In the future you will certainly respect the fact that pictures found on the internet are not public property and the photographer who took this photo would have every right to seek damages for the pirated image regardless of your intent. 

As far as the frog goes I think everyone here would be excited to see a picture of the animals in question that YOU take, even if they are bad ones, rather than a really cool one of an animal that you may not have. I am sure you understand the ridicule from those who would have otherwise been your patrons. 

So we ask you now for bad pictures.

Aneides


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## Guest (May 6, 2005)

I really did sell all the ones I had. There were 35 in all, and everyone went. For those of you concerned, I told everyone that actually paid for some, that the frogs were NOT the frogs pictured.

As far as photos of them go. I didn't keep any of the bad pictures that I took. Next time I'll use my friends digital Rebel.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

There is a small microhylid (sp?) from tanzania that is black with red spotting that could be confused for a dart frog.


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