# Not a mixing thread... Ok kinda!



## chrism (Apr 11, 2007)

Ok, a mixing thread, but not frogs!

Does anyone on here have anything else other than cleaner insects living in there vivs? Not talking about other frogs, lizards etc, thinking more stick insect or other insects.

Have heard of people keeping Peruvian Fern Insects (Oreophoetes peruana) with darts, but looking for personal experinces.

Cheers!


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

The only thing I have heard is people mixing anoles in a VERY LARGE tank with some frogs. Maybe someone else has tried an insect. I don't know.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I would think many of the insects may be a bit too aggressive. Do a google search for some of the things caught by mantis.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I saw an exhibit with a tarantula in with PDF once. It was pretty cool but not something to try at home.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

bbrock said:


> I saw an exhibit with a tarantula in with PDF once. It was pretty cool but not something to try at home.


Serious? Unless the tarantula was small enough that the frog could have a chance at eating it that frog is going to become a little snack.

Some tropical roaches /small millipedes are a possibility but since the darts will not eat them they will likely serve only to annoy the darts at nighttime. Springtails, mites, and isopods are great viv scavengers.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

some interesting insects and other non frog/reptile/etc organisms that should be of no problem would be colembola (springtails), isopods (rolly-polly's, pillbugs, sowbugs), and earthworms. These will all help with keeping the terrarium balanced and shouldn't harm your "pets" although your "pets" might eat them. Springtails are easy to collect. newspaper left outside overnight during warm months should attract them. Best of luck!

xm41907


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## skronkykong (Jan 1, 2007)

I have redworm compost bins but I've never added any to my vivs. I'm always afraid they will fall down under the false bottom and drown, then stink it up. 

I think very small species of praying mantis may be OK. Ghost mantis stay small I believe. There are plenty of posters on here that keep them but I don't know if they mix.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I wouldn't add worms. They would eat up all the leaflitter and they are biomass that is unedible to the frogs...and you don't even see them. 

Ant mantids might work as some have said in that thread. Shame that phasmids and tropical beetles are illegal in the US as those would be great companions I imagine.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> bbrock said:
> 
> 
> > I saw an exhibit with a tarantula in with PDF once. It was pretty cool but not something to try at home.
> ...


I think it was at NAIB (same guys that had the eyelash vipers with the pdf) but might have been the National Zoo or the Henry Doorly Zoo in Omaha. But it was a big dude. My hunch is that the spider occassionally nabbed a frog but they didn't care. It was a cool exhibit but obviously risky for the frogs. The old Nat. Geographic on PDF had a nice photo of a tarantula and an auratus. The caption claimed the spider didn't eat the frog because of the toxins or something like that. Of course, that was a wild frog.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> I wouldn't add worms. They would eat up all the leaflitter and they are biomass that is unedible to the frogs...and you don't even see them.


Depends on the substrate. With the clay based substrates I've been using, I've added earthworms to help glue soil aggregates together and maintain soil texture. I actually see them now and then stretched out across the substrate after the lights go out. But I agree with typical organic matter base substrates, the earthworms are counterproductive.


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

You would be surprised at what they do in the Shedd Aquarium =D

I dont remember specifics, but I do remember that darts arent the only things in the dart exhibits >=]


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Brent: Did you add earthworms, redworms, or what?

Also, are earthworms a part of a natural rainforest? 

With tarantulas depending on tactile cues to sense prey..I can't see how they would avoid a dart unless the frog somehow sends signals that it is toxic in that manner(a specific manner of walking might do that). 

I added a few millipedes(Narceus americanus) to my viv. We'll see how they do. Previous owner says she's used them as janitors for treefrog tanks with good results. 

I think a possible neat viv companion would be the green banana roach. They are small, so would not unduly annoy the frogs in small numbers, and the nymphs would likely be considered food by the frogs. Also, they like hanging out under leaves and are pretty IMO.


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## skronkykong (Jan 1, 2007)

I've seen water roaches in a zoo exhibit but I don't think it was on purpose. The thing was bigger than the frogs and munching on their termites. I'd be careful.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Apples to oranges. 

http://bugguide.net/node/view/72095


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I've often wondered what a giant African millipede would do in a dart tank. I'm not going to be the first to try this, or a giant banana slug, either, but both seem rather appealing. The latter apparently don't eat bananas, they just look like one. 

I have a lot of the common little soil millipedes, not deliberately introduced, but I'm rather fond of them for some perverse reason. They don't bother the frogs and the frogs don't bother them, at least not after the first attempt. They are spat out rapidly.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

African giants are probably a bit big for dart tanks...I imagine darts wouldn't take kindly a garden hose sized creature slinking around in their tank. The species I am using right now gets about 4 inches max and about as thick as a pinkie finger.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I sort of figured that out. My son sent me a picture of one from Ghana (W. Africa) entitled "One Big-assed millipede." It was 8 inches long, he said. I agree, it would be somewhat like running a fully armed military tank through a Japanese tea garden.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Brent: Did you add earthworms, redworms, or what?


I grabbed some earthworms from my driveway which are European earthworms since we have no natives here. I don't know what species they are.



> Also, are earthworms a part of a natural rainforest?


Yes, including a species that grows to a meter in length. Don't remember exactly where they are found. But tropical soils often contain a lot of clay with little organic matter content. So the worms tend to glue together the mineral particles as they pass through the earthworm's body while they tend to break down our more typical organic substrates rather quickly.



> With tarantulas depending on tactile cues to sense prey..I can't see how they would avoid a dart unless the frog somehow sends signals that it is toxic in that manner(a specific manner of walking might do that).


I would have to dig out the magazine but I think they described it as a grab and spit kind of thing. So the tarantula responded as you would expect, but quickly decided it was not a good meal. 

I always thought rhinocerus beetles would be cool in a pdf viv. But I don't know enough about them to know if it is practical.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Agreed on the rhino beetles. An extra male or two would make a neat display...but you'd need a massive amount of organic matter to raise the young...so it'd be best to do that seperately. They are, as of no, illegal in the US...except if you have them in your state. But then those species would probably do poorly in a viv environ. I'd guess they'd probably chill and feed on fruit most of the day so the darts would likely not be too disturbed.

Interesting on the earthworms! Not sure how confident peopel would be of just picking them up nowadays and chucking them but whatever works!

On the tarantula...did it taste I wonder with its feet or fangs? If the latter, of course, it probably mattered little to the frog whether it was eaten or not! 

I know that in many rainforests large tropical flatworms are abundant. Now wouldn't that be weird to have a slimey ribbon coursing across your tank.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bbrock said:


> Dendrobait said:
> 
> 
> > bbrock said:
> ...


There are actual documentations of dendrobatids being rejected by wild tarantulas as a food source due to distastful skin secretions. Whether or not it is the alkaloids I don't remember seeing in print anywhere. There are also reports of dendrobatids sharing tarantula burrows as refuge in much the same way Gastrophryne olivacea is reported to share burrows with a "tarantula" (see Dundee, H.A. 1999. Gastrophryne olivacea (Great Plains narrowmouth toad). Aggregation with tarantula. Herp. Rev.30(2):91-92. Ecology. Behavior. Gastrophryne )

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would skip the redworms (Eisenia ssp) as the secretion has been shown to be toxic to a number of vertebrates. In addition, they will churn your leaf litter into nothing as well as covering everything with piles of castings... 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Interesting. So the frogs were unharmed even after being attacked?

I think the particular species of tarantula was a Pamphobetus sp. 

Still don't think I would try, especially with captive frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the articles I saw yes the frogs were unharmed. 

Ed


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## Obliv79 (Oct 31, 2007)

why does everyone seem to want to try mixing of some sort? These are beautiful animals all by themselves and with the wide array of plants what else could you ask for


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Obliv79 said:


> why does everyone seem to want to try mixing of some sort? These are beautiful animals all by themselves and with the wide array of plants what else could you ask for


I think that treating a vivarium as a semi self-contained ecosystem makes for healthier frogs and more educational value to the keepers. PDF natural live in biologically diverse ecosystems and the various species present perform a variety of ecosystem services. So within reason, I think trying to mix some biodiversity into the system should be encouraged - and can actually be the key to success with some of the more difficult species. But you certainly want to be careful about introducing potential competitors, predators, and pathogens to the vivarium ecosystem.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

The best invertebrates to include in a dart frog viv are springtails and small tropical pill bugs. The only thing is that both also double as a food source for your frogs. My frogs tend to ignore the slightly bigger pill bugs and only eat the young ones. 

I don't know if I can recommend any lizards because anoles need warm basking spots and geckoes would disrupt the frogs at night. That and some of the larger, more aggressive feeders will eat baby anoles and geckoes. A small anole was in my bicolor tank for a short time only to be grabbed and swallowed by the female when it went after a cricket!



> Agreed on the rhino beetles. An extra male or two would make a neat display...but you'd need a massive amount of organic matter to raise the young...so it'd be best to do that seperately. They are, as of no, illegal in the US...except if you have them in your state. But then those species would probably do poorly in a viv environ. I'd guess they'd probably chill and feed on fruit most of the day so the darts would likely not be too disturbed.


Rhino beetles sound like an interesting display! Why are they illegal in most states?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Onagro said:


> I don't know if I can recommend any lizards because anoles need warm basking spots and geckoes would disrupt the frogs at night. That and some of the larger, more aggressive feeders will eat baby anoles and geckoes. A small anole was in my bicolor tank for a short time only to be grabbed and swallowed by the female when it went after a cricket!


Obviously if someone wanted to go this route you would have to consider possible predator prey aspects... and not all of the geckos people have used are noctural.. the genus Gonatodes comes to mind... If you look at Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry they discuss the use of some species in the enclosures. 



> Agreed on the rhino beetles. An extra male or two would make a neat display...but you'd need a massive amount of organic matter to raise the young...so it'd be best to do that seperately. They are, as of no, illegal in the US...except if you have them in your state. But then those species would probably do poorly in a viv environ. I'd guess they'd probably chill and feed on fruit most of the day so the darts would likely not be too disturbed.





Onagro said:


> Rhino beetles sound like an interesting display! Why are they illegal in most states?


If you are talking about exotic species, they are illegal in the entire country without specific APHIS permits as they are considered plant pests. If you are talking about native species, you can only keep the ones collected in your home state without APHIS permits and you need an APHIS permit to transport or cause have them transported over state borders.. The regulations are at the federal level. 

Ed


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Ed said:


> Onagro said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if I can recommend any lizards because anoles need warm basking spots and geckoes would disrupt the frogs at night. That and some of the larger, more aggressive feeders will eat baby anoles and geckoes. A small anole was in my bicolor tank for a short time only to be grabbed and swallowed by the female when it went after a cricket!
> ...


Thanks, Ed! Didn't even even think about Gonatodes geckoes. They seem to be small and peaceful enough to work.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Sphaerodactylus may be another possibility.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed said:


> I would skip the redworms (Eisenia ssp) as the secretion has been shown to be toxic to a number of vertebrates. In addition, they will churn your leaf litter into nothing as well as covering everything with piles of castings...
> Ed


Are the secretions toxic or just distasteful? I've been using red worms for my newts for several years. Many people say theirs reject them but the ones I keep eats them, probably because they've never been offered normal earthworms.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

see Kobayashi, H.; Ohtomi, M.; Sekizawa, Y.; Ohta, N. 2001. Toxicityof coelomic fluid of the earthworm Eisenia foetidato vertebrates but not invertebrates: probable role of sphingomyelin. Comp. Biochem. Physiol
0 

There are documented fatalities in a number of vertebrates... and in fish that did not die from the exposure still showed damage to tissues including gills. 

Ed


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