# potential zoonotic concerns with pdf's?



## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

Anything I should be concerned about with two children under 2 running around the house? Obviously they're not allowed near the vivs unsupervised but are there any other issues I should be concerned about? I do my best to wash my hand after messing with the vivs but not much more than a quick rinse with hand soap. No alergies that we're aware of yet.

*edit* updated the title


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

Off the top of my head I can't really think of anything that would be cause for concern. If the kids are that young, maybe raise the vivs off the ground (on a stand, desk, shelf, etc.) unless they already are. 

As long as they can't find a way to knock the viv over, pull the lights down, get inside the viv, or eat the frogs  I wouldn't worry too much. If you have some poisonous plants in the viv, that would merit extra caution, but I don't know how the kids would get to them.....Good luck.....


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

I don't think the frogs and vivariums themselves post much or any of a threat. If I had to take a guess, I'd say the ff cultures probably would be of the most concern. Mold spores and mites could cause concerns. I'd keep them in a secluded part of the house, or even outside the house if you have a heated barn/shed/garage.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

The frogs don't carry or transmit human pathogens, if that's your concern. Even fruit flies are perfectly safe, although can get annoying when they escape, which some invariably do. The mites and such that occasionally get into them are not human pathogens. Captive bred darts have lost their toxins. The hand washing and sanitation care is more for their sake than yours. For the same reason, the kids shouldn't ever be allowed to handle them. 

Keeping dart frogs is just as safe as keeping a tropical fish aquarium, with fewer diseases to worry about. Unlike household pets such as cats, dogs, and rodents, dart frogs don't scatter dander or allergens--a concern if the kids are particularly allergic, don't ever bring home ringworm, fleas, lice, round worms, toxoplasma, cat scratch bacteria, and other stuff that might be transmitted. I'm certainly not anti-dog or cat--don't think it is bad for kids to keep them, but am just making a comparison of possibly harmful problems to put dart frog keeping in perspective with other kinds of pets.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

just the information I was looking for. thanks for the help


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I was going to say the mites and spores too...someone beat me to it.
I would say the biggest hazard would be a viv tipping over on a climbing child...just make sure the tanks are on a very secure stand, much as you would a TV or aquarium.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Most people overlook this, but the vivarium environment is heaven for molds. So if the tanks are not probably closed, or or ventilated to the outside, there is a risk of spore transfer into the room. 

Luke


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Three other hazards come to mind....

Spouse/significant other threatening to smack you up the side of the head for $$$ spent on hobby or hours spent "messing with those 'd**n' frogs"

Back pain because you just 'had to move those vivs around after completing them'

'Sports' related injury as you grab awkwardly for frog shooting past your face towards freedom...usually coupled with startled expletives and crashing sounds as you topple off the ladder (of course it always happens with the vivs on the top rack  )

Bill


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "The frogs don't carry or transmit human pathogens, if that's your concern. Even fruit flies are perfectly safe, although can get annoying when they escape, which some invariably do. The mites and such that occasionally get into them are not human pathogens. Captive bred darts have lost "endsnip

This is incorrect. Dendrobatid frogs (and amphibians in general) can be vectors for salmonella (just like reptiles). In addition, if you work in the enclosure there is a risk for other zoonotics such as Mycobacteria marinum infections. 


Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

elmoisfive said:


> Three other hazards come to mind....
> 
> Spouse/significant other threatening to smack you up the side of the head for $$$ spent on hobby or hours spent "messing with those 'd**n' frogs"
> 
> ...


Haha! Perhaps the most common threats!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

_This is incorrect. Dendrobatid frogs (and amphibians in general) can be vectors for salmonella (just like reptiles). In addition, if you work in the enclosure there is a risk for other zoonotics such as Mycobacteria marinum infections. _

Ed is right. And about the comment about tropical fish, the aquarium water has all sorts of bacteria or organisms that could be a problem if gotten into the GI tract.

The moral is though, just wash your hands after messing with aquariums/vivariums. I have kept frogs (and originally fish too) for half of my life and never had I any problems.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

My biggest problem was stopping my 2 yr old daughter from catching and eating the odd cricket that had escaped from my tree frog enclosure!!

She did manage to eat one and had an upset tummy for a day but the doctor gave her the all clear and she was fine.

She has learnt a 'look don't touch' policy now although sometimes she teases me!!!.

Regards

Steve


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Ed, you are off base here, and for the very first time, I will argue with what I admit is your usual superior expertise that I usually respect, like some people worship Jesus, but dart frogs aren't going to give the keeper, or his child, or anyone else "salmonella," even if they may very doubtfully carry it, which they are much less likely to do than the chicken eggs in the refrigerator, purchased at the grocery store, which are subsequetly more intimately handled by the cook. 

Wash hands, don't let the kids suck on frog poop, and everything is fine. Dart frogs are no particular danger to children, and much less so than far more potentially fatally destructive things they will encounter in their lives that have nothing to do with disease or keeping animals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Patty,

I suggest that you review http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5249a3.htm
and specifically the following cited references from that article. 

Mermin J, Hutwagner L, Vugia D, et al. Reptiles, amphibians, and human Salmonella infection: a population-based, case-control study. Clin Infect Dis Suppl (in press). 
Srikantiah P, Lay JC, Crump JA, et al. An outbreak of Salmonella Javiana associated with amphibian contact---Mississippi, 2001. Presented at the International Conference on Emerging Infectious Diseases, Atlanta, Georgia, 2002. 

There is no doubtful about amphibians acting as vectors for it. In addition, as very few enclosures are totally ff proof, there is also a concomitant risk that the ffs that escape from the enclosures could also be carrying salmonella on/in the fly as salmonella has been shown to infect Drosophila melanogaster. This then extends the risk from more than just working with/in the enclosures.... 

Ed

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

maybe i`ll have to stop just picking the flies out of my coffee....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "maybe i`ll have to stop just picking the flies out of my coffee...."endsnip

And just swallow them instead???

When dealing with herp associated salmonella infections (and D. melanogaster has been shown to be able to become infected and eventually killed by types of salmonella that are pathnogenic to salmonella) the greatest risk is to small children (and particuarly infants of one year or less) and immunocompromisd people. Not only can it cause significant illness (and possibly even death) in these groups of people but the resulting public ramifications can be significant. All you have to do is look at all of the laws and rules that were enacted around 1975 regarding the sale of turtles and tortoises with a shell length of under 4 inches.... It would not be very far fetched to see the same sort of thing occur with herps in general which as anurans have been demonstrated to carry salmonella would include dendrobatid frogs... 


If you look at the link to the CDC article and see that there are an estimated 1.7 million people in the USA that keep herps and there are approximately 74,000 cases of samonella linked to reptiles and amphibians this gives the chances at getting salmonella from herps at something like 4.4%. (now these are all herp related salmonella cases so the estimale is going to be a little slanted as it doesn't take out incidental contact with a wild animal (picking a turtle up off the road and putting fingers in mouth or getting it from someone else's house etc) but this is still a significant risk of aquiring salmonella (think of it as 4 people out of every 100 people that have herps in thier house will contract salmonella in the upcoming year). 


Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

no, maybe i`ll have to use a travel mug so they don`t get in there.


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## NickMorin (Feb 22, 2004)

> think of it as 4 people out of every 100 people that have herps in thier house will contract salmonella in the upcoming year


Ed,

I don't think you can say that using those numbers. The estimation of 74,000 cases of Salmonella infections caused by herps was based on herp contact, which in their study meant that there was a reptile in the house or the person touched a reptile in the 5 days prior to illness. I would bet that the number of herp owners would be significantly less. Another way to work the numbers would be to use the level of herp contact estimated to be 2.7-5.6% in their control population. So 5.6% of the 300 million people in the US have herp contact and 74,000 get Salmonella as a result. That’s 0.44%, which, coincidently, is about the same as your chances of getting Salmonella period, 0.47% (1.4 million cases per 300 million people). I’m not saying there’s not a risk. There clearly is, particularly for young children. The question is what level of risk is one willing to tolerate. How many of us are constantly worrying about Salmonella in our daily lives. I’m not and I’m not when I’m playing in my tanks either. On the other hand, I'm also not 2 years old and I know what I should and shouldn't put in my mouth (mostly).

Nick


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

And I'll have to stop just slurping fruit flies down with my wine. 

My point is, that while there may be a "risk" of salmonella infection from a rare carrier dart frog, it is extremely small. It is not like anyone, least of all a kid, is going to handle dart frogs as is sometimes done with reptiles, especially turtles. Even if some fruit flies have been known to carry salmonella, they have to be infected with it first, which those you purchase to start and culture yourself are not. Neither are captive bred darts likely carriers of salmonella, and even if they were, ordinary hand washing after doing maintenance would take care of it. 

I just don't think that this should be a reason not to keep dart frogs in the same household as young children. Or to keep them at all by anyone, for that matter. It's not just children who may be infected by one or another species of salmonella sometime in their lives, and over a life time, many people are, without even knowing it, or having it diagnosed. 

These kind of precautions remind me of a precaution label on a stuffed fish toy I recently bought for one of my old dogs that likes to pack around stuffers. It warned about a lot of things that could possibly happen if the dog chewed on it and unstuffed it, which most dogs do, then ended with capital letters: THIS IS A DOG TOY. KEEP AWAY FROM CHILDREN . I really do try to keep away from children as much as possible, but--


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "risk" of salmonella infection from a rare carrier dart frog,"endsnip

As it is part of their normal gut flora its like saying people are rare carriers of E. coli.... 

snip "it is extremely small."endsnip and snip "hand washing after doing maintenance would take care of "endsnip

Hand washing is only sufficient if there is no other potential contact with the salmonella. Unfortunately this is often not the case as plant cuttings and other tools may be sat down on kitchen surfaces or washed in kitchen or bathroom sinks and the resulting contact is sufficient to cause infection. 

snip "I just don't think that this should be a reason not to keep dart frogs in the same household as young children."endsnip

This is against the current recommendations by the CDC and in this day and age, I wouldn't be surprised to see some overzealous person being prosecuted for neglect for causing salmonella related infection in thier kids from their pets. I am aware of several pet stores that were sucessfully sued after people's kids contracted salmonella from reptiles purchased their even after they signed a waiver stating that the purchasing parents were aware that reptiles can carry salmonella and it is a risk to people.

snip "Or to keep them at all by anyone, for that matter. It's not just children who may be infected by one or another species of salmonella sometime in their lives, and over a life time, many people are, without even knowing it, or having it diagnosed"endsnip


Except that we are alreadying seeing legislation that is headed this way due to the upswing in herp related salmonella cases... 

With respect to your comment about the ffs, they are probably salmonella free while in the culture. The point of infection is when they are dumped into the enclosure and then engage on a walkabout. 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Nick,



That was a slightly outdated article so I suspect based on the numbers by APHIS that there are more herp owners (see http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/trends_and ... _paper.htm)

snip "Exotic animal imports - The exotic pet trade has grown as more individuals develop an interest in owning wildlife species as pets or investments. The number of small pet mammals in the US, including exotics such as hedgehogs, was estimated at 14 million in the mid 1990’s (does not include cats and dogs). A pet industry trade association reported that the number of pet reptiles and amphibians in the US increased from 2 million in 1990 to 7.3 million in 1996. More recently, the number of pet snake and other reptile owners was estimated at nearly 20 million. "endsnip

I would suspect that there has been a significant increase in the numbers of pet herp related salmonella cases... 

There are many ways to present statistics and I like yours better... 

And in any case the original question that was asked was there any potential zoonotics that a peson would have to worry about with small children and dart frogs and the answer is salmonella is the main one but yes there are others. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

rediculous, pretty soon they`ll tell you your kids shouldn`t play in the backyard. 
they can try and tell you that you can`t have pets in your house to protect you but look at other issues. acid rain, global warming, medicines that can outright kill you etc.etc.etc. and they want to ban pets.
i guess if the industry makes enough money it doesn`t matter about the health issues thay can cause.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

There is a relatively simple answer to concerns about an amphibian or reptile being a carrier of one of the Salmonella species that cause diarrhea and disease in humans. However, it is rather after the fact, and not too practical, after one has made the initial investment in a vivarium and the dart frogs. Ask your pediatrician to order a bacterial stool culture by a reputable human microbiology laboratory on a very fresh sample the new animals' feces. 

It may come back to the breeders that may have to do it, and certify their animals as being "Salmonella-free." Does anyone on this board have a personal experience of ever being infected with the shits from keeping dart frogs, then being able to document the source with cultures from the frogs and from you, to prove it? 

Anyone with children who are immunocompromised for whatever reason, probably already know this, and have to live in a virtual bubble of extreme caution, anyway. These people aren't here asking questions. 

We develop immunity normally by being exposed to non-lethal doses of the different potential pathogens early on. Too much neurtoic protection of one's children from any possible exposure to the real world is not good. 

I hate/and also love to argue with Ed, because I learn a lot from him, and he has all of the patience and interest to document his stuff, has done everying from shoveling elephant grunt in a zoo to his concerns about the environment and knows far more than I do about the more esoteric, stuff, but sometimes misses the less esoteric and more practical concerns of a potential hobby keeper of dart frogs, which is what this post started out to be. If you read all of the precautions, keep your kids in a plastic bubble, never do anything without a safety research first, you'll never go out of your house, may end up to home school your kids, which will restrict their minds to your level, maintain a full time lawyer in case your dog (if you ever have one) poops on the neighbor's lawn and he decides to sue you for damages to his psyche, you aren't living. This kind of stuff gets out of control and totally ridiculous. Life is dangerous, exciting and fun, --there are no guarantees. Life is meant to live, not to curl in a fearful ball over. Stand on the top step of a ladder that cautions you, that "this is not a step," and then you wonder why in the hell they put there for then, if it's not a "step." If it looks like a step, step on it. 


If you keep a dart frog or several in a vivarium, your children are not going to die because of it. 

Ed, tell me honsestly in your experience and opinion, is it too dangerous for a new hobbyist with children to keep a dart frog in a vivarium?


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Go, Patty!!!!!!!!

This reminds me of the (far more likely, but still not all that common) scare stories that come up about dog round worms and kids going blind from contact with their feces...

When each of my kids found out about this in grade school and came home eyeing the dogs with new found apprehension, I just reminded them that in 40-some years (now half a century plus) of having dogs, being around dogs, knowing 100's of people with dogs, I have yet to hear firsthand of anyone picking up an infestation...

Sure, we worm our animals...that just means there was a parasite there in the first place. ..

Patty's said it best--you can worry your life away, or you can use common sense and enjoy it while it lasts. Which isn't very long, unfortunately, even if you avoid zoonoses.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hi Patty,


snip "There is a relatively simple answer to concerns about an amphibian or reptile being a carrier of one of the Salmonella species that cause diarrhea and disease in humans. However, it is rather after the fact, and not too practical, after one has made the initial investment in a vivarium and the dart frogs. Ask your pediatrician to order a bacterial stool culture by a reputable human microbiology laboratory on a very fresh sample the new animals' feces. "enbdsnip


There is at least one significant problem with this approach (which is well documented in the herp vet literature), in that this doesn't work because a negative fecal (or fecal tests) doesn't mean anything when dealing with herps. 

snip "It may come back to the breeders that may have to do it, and certify their animals as being "Salmonella-free." Does anyone on this board have a personal experience of ever being infected with the shits from keeping dart frogs, then being able to document the source with cultures from the frogs and from you, to prove it? "endsnip


You cannot certify any herps to be salmonella free (see my above comments). 

snip "Anyone with children who are immunocompromised for whatever reason, probably already know this, and have to live in a virtual bubble of extreme caution, anyway. These people aren't here asking questions."endsnip

The statement issued by the CDC and the AMA is not for immunocompromised childred but small children AND immunocompromised people. See my previous comments. 

snip "I hate/and also love to argue with Ed, because I learn a lot from him, and he has all of the patience and interest to document his stuff, has done everying from shoveling elephant grunt in a zoo"endsnip

I have shoveled turtle grunt and helped feed the elephants but I haven't (thankfully) had to shovel elephant grunt so far... 

snip "to his concerns about the environment and knows far more than I do about the more esoteric, stuff, but sometimes misses the less esoteric and more practical concerns of a potential hobby keeper of dart frogs,"endsnip

How is avoiding salmomella infections not a practical part of the keeping of dart frogs???? 

snip "which is what this post started out to be."endsnip

Which I have noted several times... 

snip "If you keep a dart frog or several in a vivarium, your children are not going to die because of it. "endsnip


I don't think that this is a responsible position to take by anyone. I think the correct response is that if you take reasonable precautions, it is very unlikely that your children will contract anything from the frogs. 

snip "Ed, tell me honsestly in your experience and opinion, is it too dangerous for a new hobbyist with children to keep a dart frog in a vivarium?"endsnip


I have not taken that position once during this entire discussion... There were a coupleof people who challenged my comments on this basis but even in my responses I didn't take that position.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Diane,

snip "This reminds me of the (far more likely, but still not all that common) scare stories that come up about dog round worms and kids going blind from contact with their feces..."endsnip

What you are referring to is a rare complication of larval migrans.. (do a web search....) 


Ed


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

c'est ma and Ed are probably both referring to the common round worm in dogs, Toxocara canis. which has a similar life cycle to the round worm Ascaris lumbricoides that commonly infects humans where sanitation is poor. Occasionally, a syndrome known as visceral larva migrans occurs in humans who have ingested embyronated eggs of both T. canis and T. Cati. This is more likely to occur in human infants and immunocompromised adults, occasionally adult dogs. Since humans are not the natural host for this parasite, the larvae hatch in the intestine, penetrate the intestinal wall, then go to the liver, where they remain and become encapsulated, without further problems. Some however, may pass on to invade the central nervous system and the eyes. Keep in mind that this is rare. The larval migrations may also cause tissue reactions along their route. 

Re: Salmonella sp. Ed is right that there are a lot of false negatives testing for any bacteria, especially in a carrier, where the bacterial numbers are often too low for the usual "quick tests" to detect the specific antigen. It would take a very careful culture on McConkey's agar to find the few Salmonella organisms that might be present, then a follow up with typing them for their specific antigens, to make sure they are indeed one of the pathogens. Unless a microbiologist were aware that he was looking for the rare Salmonella sp. colony or Shigella colonies, indicating a possible carrier, not a more significant number indicating the cause of a disease, he would more than likely ignore it. We don't want to send our physicians off into tangents of remote possibilities-- just help them diagnose a case of the shits, or whatever else. For instance, as a microbiologist, one ignores the presence of one or two colonies of beta hemolytic Streptococcus on a blood agar plate, because it is only significant as the cause of the disease when it is either a nearly pure culture, or makes up the majority among the many other bacterial organisms one sees growing in the culture. A carrier state is not often diagnosed in this sense-- but it could be, if that were the point of doing it. If the person doing the culture looked for the more rare organisms that might represent a potential carrier, pick out the specifically "Salmonella-like" colonies that occur, which any microbiologist worth his salt can spot growing, then type the pure culture more specifically for an exact ID--the only thing left to consider is who is going to pay for it? 

All in all, we've probably confused the original poster with our bantering back and forth, but at least there's been some information exchanged. 

Keep shoveling, Ed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "All in all, we've probably confused the original poster with our bantering back and forth, but at least there's been some information exchanged. 

Keep shoveling, Ed."endsnip

Possibly and to keep shoveling a little more... .

There have been a number of studies in herps regarding salmonella and some of the main points have come from the studies... 

1) all herps even if the fecal checks are negative should be considered positive for salamonella and managed to minimize cross infection. 
2) with reptiles (and suspected for amphibians), treating the animal when salmonella is detected in the fecals doesn't clear the potential pathogen from the reptile because even if they are maintained under clean conditions the reptile can begin to reshed salmonella at any point in time. (which has resulted in some authorities recommending euthanasia for any positive herp and the attempt to ban them as pets by certain groups. In addition this why the CDC and the AMA doesn't recommend herps in homes with small children). 
3) shedding of salamonella appears to be linked to stress in the herp. This can be any kind of stress from shedding to reproduction to thermal, etc. 

Ed


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

I don't usually worry much about diseases, despite my 2 year old daughter spending 4 months in the hospital after a kitten scratch. :shock:

She's fine now and 8 years old, but her t4 vertebrae became infected and basically died after infection with catscratch disease. That's a highly unusual occurance, to be sure.

So I suppose if we are looking for long shots you can get Cutaneous Sporotrichosis from messing with sphagnum moss. Of course, as long as the kids aren't crawling around in the vivarium it's probably not a real risk.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Merely being born and living in any environment is a risk. It always has been, even before precautionary recommendations to the ultimate extremes of "safety." Life is dangerous, so it is recommended not to live it? The AMA doesn't recommend keeping herps in the same location as small children because of the risk of Salmonella. Neither should we eat chickens or eggs, which are also a Salmonella risk, actually a much greater risk than a a frog or herp isolated in a tank the children are unlikely to be directly exposed to. Actually, if we pay attention to all of the precautions, nothing is safe, and everything causes cancer, and if that doesn't do us in, the final step on a ladder, before the top, is not a step and we are forbidden to step upon it by labeled commands. I often wonder why the hell this step is there, if it isn't a step. It sure looks like a step. 

So what if on the rare chance a small child gets infected with some species of Salmonella from a dart frog in an isolated tank? You have a choice of taking him to a doctor, having it diagnosed and treated specifically, or not diagnosed and treated in a broad spectrum antibiotic manner, (the more likely course,) or not taking the child to a doctor, and the kid gets over it on his own, after a bout of the shits, which may be indistinguishable from many other causes, including catching an obscure viral cold or flu virus from school or a play date. Life is full of bugs. We can get immune and used to them, or neurotic about them. I have chosen the former, albeit with a modicum of caution about cleanliness and sanitation.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Neither should we eat chickens or eggs, which are also a Salmonella risk, actually a much greater risk "endsnip

Except we do not cook the herps to kill the salmonella. I'm not sure that I can agree that the risk is greater unless you are referring to the total number of salmonella cases due to chicken which is going to be greater as a far greater number of people cook and eat chicken than keep herps. (see above in Nick's post as the rate of infection via herps is the same.. but the strains contracted from herps as I understand it tend to be more virulent)

Exposure to the enclosure can be a source of salmonella infection as was seen in a Zoo where visitors contracted salmonella by touching the barriers surrounding the enclosures. (see http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2233397 for an abstract on it). 

Previous exposure can play a part in sensitivity to exposure. One of the reptile keepers during this outbreak was restraining one of the komodos for sampling for salmonella and was asked by the tech if he was worried about getting salmonella from the monitor. His response was to lick the back of the monitor...however most people have not had repeated exposure to the odd strains carried by herps..... 

Ed


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Shall we start a pool on who'll get in the last word here?   

(Uh...interesting Komodo story...!)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I was mildly grossed out when I was told that story by one of the other keepers involved.....

Ed


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well...that's reassuring...  

Ed, I've always felt that zookeeping has to be one of the most interesting and eventful careeers possible. I wish you'd start a lounge thread sometime to post some of the things you've witnessed/heard about over the years!


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## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Ed said:


> His response was to lick the back of the monitor...


Eww!

Great thread BTW. 

I remember my mom dragging me and my WC Red-Earred Sliders to the vet for a talk about Salmonella in the 70's. I have kept reptiles (mostly snakes) of and on since then. And now dart frogs AND snakes. I have only gotten Salmonella from convenience store fried chicken though.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I always wondered why zoos don't have rattlesnake kissing booths. Might get Salmonella.


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## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Yup, that's probably it! =)


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

Actually, it's going to be much duller around here when (if) this thread _does_ grind to a halt...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

At some point I may post some of the Zoo stories I have heard so far but if you want to read a good bunch of them try Roger Conant autobiography.. The section with the free ranging emus in the Zoo is very funny.... 

I have has salmonella from college food but not from herps yet but I am aware of other keepers contracting giardia (once from beaver, the second time from hoofstock (the second one was confirmed to be due to aerosolized particles from hosing), camplylobacter from tamarins, balatidium from gorillas, ringworm from rock hyrex, Mycobacterium mariunum (from fish and herp cages), Mycobacterium avium (birds), Psittacosis (birds), histoplasmosis (birds) and finally salmonella from herps....

I had Lyme's disease a few years ago (I has missed a small seed tick on my side and woke up about 60 days later after about 3 weeks of a low fever and feeling bad to badly inflamed, red swollen knees). When I called the office, I spoke to the triage nurse and had to convince her why I knew it was a tick. When I got to the office, I had to do the same thing for the nurse who took my vitals. I then met with the resident who questioned me the same way (and then admitted he had never seen a tick). He then brought in one of the regular doctors who I had never seen before and she then proceeded to grill me on ticks. At that point, I was fed up and responded, it was an arthropod of the genus Ixodes which is known to be naturally distributed in these regions. At that point she told me point blank that I knew too much about Lymes' disease and that I must be faking it... I responded that my job for the last 12 years had been as a Zookeeper and that we were required to know about zoonotics and that if she wanted to discuss esoteric zoonotics I would be happy to discuss them with her.... 
She actually wrote in my chart (my regular doctor told me when I went back for a follow up) that I had all of the symptoms but she didn't think I had it. I told him the story and he was amazed. Shortly after that she was asked to leave the practice. 


Ed


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## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Ed said:


> She actually wrote in my chart (my regular doctor told me when I went back for a follow up) that I had all of the symptoms but she didn't think I had it. I told him the story and he was amazed. Shortly after that she was asked to leave the practice.
> 
> 
> Ed


Yeesh!


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