# expanding foam?



## yellow dart frog man (Mar 8, 2011)

hi,i was wondering if i can use wow expanding foam instead of great stuff expanding foam.


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## Reptile Island (May 10, 2011)

While many people use regular great stuff, I only recommend using pond foam. Even though it is more expensive, there are a lot less chemicals that can leach into the water. We all know how sensitive frogs are to toxins, and even if it doesn't have an immediate affect on the frog, its difficult to say what it does long term. Just look for a "safe for fish" on the label.


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

Reptile Island said:


> While many people use regular great stuff, I only recommend using pond foam. Even though it is more expensive, there are a lot less chemicals that can leach into the water. We all know how sensitive frogs are to toxins, and even if it doesn't have an immediate affect on the frog, its difficult to say what it does long term. Just look for a "safe for fish" on the label.


Where exactly did you get this information that there are "less chemicals" in pond and stone great stuff than in gap and crack great stuff? I just went to the Dow website and looked up the MSDS for both gap and crack and pond and stone great suff. According to the MSDS both formulations have the exact same chemicals in them, just in slightly differing amounts. Diphenylmethane Diisocyanate, isomers and homologues (in pond its up to 10% in gaps and cracks its up to 30%) and Paraffin waxes and Hydrocarbon waxes, chlorinated (pond foam its 1-15% gap and crack its 5-10%) are the only chemicals that are in significantly differing concentrations in the two formulas.

I'm not telling anyone it is ok or not ok to use either type of foam or even another brand, because they all basically contain the same chemicals. Most of the potentially harmful chemicals are highly volatile and are dissipated to the atmosphere while the product cures. I'm not at all trying to say great stuff or any expanding foam is completely safe. but as something else to consider, even aquarium 100% silicone has vapors that are harmful to people and frogs if not properly cured.

If your worried about potential leaching from your background, don't use synthetic materials, use clay, and all the chemistry woes disappear.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Reptile Island said:


> While many people use regular great stuff, I only recommend using pond foam. Even though it is more expensive, there are a lot less chemicals that can leach into the water. We all know how sensitive frogs are to toxins, and even if it doesn't have an immediate affect on the frog, its difficult to say what it does long term. Just look for a "safe for fish" on the label.


there are quite a few people who have been using great stuff for 7+ years, with no known bad health effects. These people's frogs reproduce normally, maintain good weights, don't have any unusual health issues. While this doesn't mean it is 100% safe, the great stuff method has stood the test of time. I would say the pond foam is also safe but far fewer people use it. As for some of the other foams out there, I would probably stay away from other foams b/c I wouldn't want to take a chance. Besides, if you must save $5-10 on a build you might want to ask yourself if its the right time to by frogs. While they are not as expensive as other hobbies, they are not cheap either. Good luck


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

If the regular Great Stuff is toxic to frogs, I think there are going to be quite a few people on this board who are in big trouble. As for the 'wow' brand, I haven't heard of it, but a good start would be trying to compare the formula with that of the Great Stuff foam like Rhesus Feist has pointed out.

Pat


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## Reptile Island (May 10, 2011)

patm said:


> If the regular Great Stuff is toxic to frogs, I think there are going to be quite a few people on this board who are in big trouble. As for the 'wow' brand, I haven't heard of it, but a good start would be trying to compare the formula with that of the Great Stuff foam like Rhesus Feist has pointed out.
> 
> Pat


I know lots of people use Great stuff, but I don't recommend it because its not made to get wet or be in contact with animals, unlike the pond foam. I assume that, even if it has the same or similar chemicals, it is less likely to leach them into the water. Obviously it doesn't kill on contact, but who knows if it might lower their lifespan by 10% or cause a slight increase in reproduction problems? Its certainly possible that both are more or less the same, but why take the risk for a few extra dollars?

After all, there are plenty of materials that have been consumed by humans for hundreds of years before they were found to be toxic. Lead was used to seal human food for centuries, and BPAs, used in plastics since the 1890s are just now coming under scrutiny. 

Certainly I don't criticize those who use great stuff, but I let all my customers know that I, personally, don't prefer it.


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

Reptile Island said:


> I know lots of people use Great stuff, but I don't recommend it because its not made to get wet or be in contact with animals, unlike the pond foam. I assume that, even if it has the same or similar chemicals, it is less likely to leach them into the water. Obviously it doesn't kill on contact, but who knows if it might lower their lifespan by 10% or cause a slight increase in reproduction problems? Its certainly possible that both are more or less the same, but why take the risk for a few extra dollars?
> 
> After all, there are plenty of materials that have been consumed by humans for hundreds of years before they were found to be toxic. Lead was used to seal human food for centuries, and BPAs, used in plastics since the 1890s are just now coming under scrutiny.
> 
> Certainly I don't criticize those who use great stuff, but I let all my customers know that I, personally, don't prefer it.


Again I'm going to ask for your information source concerning the pond foam being safer or less likely to leach chemicals? Great Stuff gap and crack is designed to get wet and repel water, it is designed to fill gaps in exterior walls. 

I'm saying neither regular great stuff (gap and crack) nor pond foam has been proven long life safe for animals. Just because Great Stuff pond and rock says it is safe for fish does not mean that Dow chemical did long term studies on how their products affect the pathology or reproductive success of fish or amphibians or humans for that matter of fact. No chemical company willingly does long term health studies unless otherwise required to do so and for the most part, especially in the USA, they are not required to do so. (This is why the long term health effects of BPAs in plastics have only really come to light in the last 10 years or so.) To say that one formulation of toxic chemicals is safe while another formulation of the same toxic chemicals is potentially unsafe seems like marketing to me, especially without any scientific study to back up the "safe" claim. 

I'm not telling you to not recommend whatever product you want to your customers. I'm saying if you have a concern over the potential of leeching from great stuff (it doesn't matter the formula, they all contain the exact same toxic chemicals, just in different amounts) affecting the long term health of the animals, you should be recommending a natural, non chemical background like cork or clay. 

Clay backgrounds are cheaper than great stuff also. I am part way through a great stuff build in a 29 gal tank, and between the panel of egg crate, the 2 cans of great stuff, 3-5 tubes of DAP 100% silicone, and block of coco fiber I'm already up around $40.


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

So as to not completely hijack this thread from the OP:

You can look up the MSDS for the Wow foam and see if it has any chemicals that are different than great stuff's MSDS. If anything is different in the Wow foam, don't use it at all. 

Personally, I wouldn't risk the unknown brand. As I said in the last post, I'm building a great stuff background using gap and crack great stuff. 

If you're at all worried about potential health effects, use a natural material for your background such as clay or cork.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

I have used gaps and cracks to make a platform for my turtles, the bottom gets wet and the turtles are fine. If you are using gs pond and stone, I wouldnt waste money or time buying silicone and peat moss trying to cover it. It lookes fine plain. If i just want to do a quick, cheap build im just using black foam. Gs, peat moss, and silicone is the standard because it holds, but i want a new different look.


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## yellow dart frog man (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for all the help!! I'll just use great stuff gaps and cracks.


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## john253 (May 8, 2011)

I like to use any pond foam just because of color. In the long run it will look better imo. And you wont have an ugly yellow tank from the back view. A little more cost up front but this hobby isnt cheap anyways and it will be a lot more work to redo something you decide you dont like down the road..


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