# 4 foot Tall Vivarium



## phyter23 (May 1, 2008)

Im in the long long process of finishing up my 4 foot tall 2x2 beast of a vivarium. half rock wall half GS cocofiber/tree. I have a couple of questions for everyone. First it will be my first dart tank but ive kept many reptiles before with much success and have raise tropical geckos in vivariums, What would be a good Dart to utilize that much vertical space? I LOVE imitators but they are intermediate frogs and would hate myself for not being able to care for those beautiful things correctly! Second question would be what lighting? I want to be able to grow moss all the way to the bottom of the tank. I was thinking 4 t5's with maybe LED spotlights(kindof) to reach the bottom better. Last which misting system would be the best? Ill post pictures when i make a little more progress.
Thanks guys
Nate


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

I personally would not worry about difficulty level in this case, those weren't really calculated with people who have the ambition to build 4 foot tall vivs

But seriously, just do your research and you should be fine with just about ANY frog. AS far as lighting goes, I really think you would need a metal halide for this viv to get good ground growth. Of course, this adds the heat factor, but I can't really think of any other way you could effectively light the bottom other than mounting a few lights on the sides; which generally is unsightly.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Top and side lighting. Do a search on side lighting, I know ive seen a few tall tank threads where this was discussed.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I think an enclosure like this would be cool because you can mimic the rain forest even better as the top canopy would be the plants that like brighter light and you can have lower light plants towards the floor like certain ferns. A lot of house plants we use don't need super bright direct lighting so as long as lighting gets down there they'd probably be fine with a little trial and error. I personally think a metal halide would get really hot, not to mention expensive. If I were you I'd just go with building your own unit or something. Maybe a wooden box on top that has a reflector on the inside with 6 compact florescent fixtures as that would be pretty bright too and reflect down pretty good.

For frogs, I never like recommending thumbnails to beginners. Basically reptile care no matter how extensive just doesn't apply to dart frogs. Whole other ball game. A lot of rules don't apply. So just do your research and you'll be fine. The reason I don't like thumbnails for rookies is not just because they're shy, fragile, and tiny, but more because I find it sad when people get crazy into dart frogs but skip all the incredibly bold, COLORFUL, and gorgeous terrestrial starter species. These are the heart of the hobby and to not get in a few years experience with these frogs is just something that you'd be missing out on big time! No matter what rarer frogs I strive to work with, I still sometimes stop to look at my leucs and just have so much fun watching them bounce around and eat all day. The frogs I'm speaking of are tincs, auratus, leucs, etc. They gather to feed everyday, unlike thumbnails and pumilio which will hunt during the day but really don't gather and eat like the big frogs. This can be scary for a rookie keeper. Also, if they're shy and taking weeks to settle in, it's stressful not seeing them for a while and your instinct is to tear apart the cage to find them lol

That aside, if you're this ambitious and wanna do this really tall vivarium, thumbnails would be awesome. I'd suggest your favorite imitator or vents. Might be able to find Lamasi easy as well but they can be incredibly shy and I don't care if I have shy frogs since I have plenty of frogs that aren't, but if they're your only frogs in a vivarium you invested SO much money and time into, not seeing them would just be like, "uhhh what the hell! where are they?" haha

So do your research on what they like for a vivarium, work on that for a while and make it look awesome and make sure everything is just right, get fruit flies going way before, then you can decide what kind of group you want to go with. The longer you take on the vivarium, the more time you have to learn about the frogs that are going in it too. 

I'm sure it will be cool and you'll take pride in it though. That's a big set-up!!!! You'll be able to get a pretty big group for that tank. 

Do yourself a favor though and go to the caresheet forum here and read "Notes on Thumbnail species" by Patrick at Saurian.net He basically discusses the dynamics of working with groups of thumbnails as it's not an exact science..none of this is.

Sorry for the long post...Bored tonight so posting quite a bit. 

D


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

For 4 feet your going to need nothing short of 8 t5 bulbs.

In all honesty, your cheapest bet will be a metal halide system. Probably, in conjunction with a series of t5s.

4 feet is a long distance for light to travel when you consider the amount of shadowing coming from the sides and plants. It may not seem like much but a single bromeliad at the top of the enclosure can drop the lumen count of your bottom plants by as much as 80%. If you were to make a 4'tall by 4'wide, this would not be nearly as big of an issue as 48" bulbs will be able to better disperse light across the volume.

In my experience the taller/thinner the tank, the more intense light is needed to be able to get past the shadowing of the sides.

I use Aquatraders - Guaranteed Best Prices on Aquarium Lightings + Free Shipping! for my lighting. Cheapest place I've found.


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## phyter23 (May 1, 2008)

Thank you guys for such wonderful and detailed responses! I was also considering metal halide but would worry too much about the heat! I do reeftanks soi know lighting relatively well. Would a good LED system be good instead of MH? I know a lot of the better led systems out perform MH as far as PAR light penetration and lumen output. 
Very good point about the bold larger frogs! I've read up on many of the frogs but can't recall a good larger arboreal species that would do well with a tank this size! Please let me know! I'll throw some pictures up this weekend! Thanks again guys!
Nate


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

I could be mistaken, but i think auratus are the most "arboreal" of the beginner grade frogs. Just my 2 cents. Also, you could so something with some neat shelving effect that will allow almost any frog to make use of the vertical space.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

phyter23 said:


> Thank you guys for such wonderful and detailed responses! I was also considering metal halide but would worry too much about the heat! I do reeftanks soi know lighting relatively well. Would a good LED system be good instead of MH? I know a lot of the better led systems out perform MH as far as PAR light penetration and lumen output.
> Very good point about the bold larger frogs! I've read up on many of the frogs but can't recall a good larger arboreal species that would do well with a tank this size! Please let me know! I'll throw some pictures up this weekend! Thanks again guys!
> Nate


I would not use LED's on this tank, mainly because it hasn't been tested really well in the vivarium hobby... so if it ends up not working out it could be a pretty pricey "experiment."

As for frogs, I personally would say Ranitomeya Imitator. However, someone else can probably do some more specific reccomendations...


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

You could do anthonyi, I have heard that terribs climb, leucs, imitator, vents, maybe some azuriventris, varibilis, lamasi but they can be pretty shy, those are some species to look at.


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## davescrews (Dec 11, 2008)

I have a 6 foot tall viv with 400watts of halide and two 65watt power compact's and that still is barley enough light to grow much in the bottom third. I use 2 large pc fans to keep the heat down, works just fine.


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## phyter23 (May 1, 2008)

Wow again I'm overwhelmed with the responses! Keep the frog recommendations coming! MH really doesn't get too hot? I'll have to look into it more. I was also thinking 4 t5ho bulbs with parabolic refelctors (German made) and 12 Cree 3 watt LEDs with 40 degree optics they give par ratings comparable to 250-400 MH. 6500k a good color temp?


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ure-project-basicly-done-update-8-05-a-3.html


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Someone mentioned terriblis for this tank. Adult terribilis don't really climb much and they would be wasted in such a tall tank like this.

The most aboreal beginner frog would be leucs in my opinion. They'll use all levels of the tank. Mine are up high just as much as on the ground. I've had 5 groups of leucs over the years and I will always own them. One of my favorite frogs! Their colors are unmatched for contrast, they're active, bold, and their call is amazing. They might be common but that's only because they breed well and are so popular. They're common because they're awesome.


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