# Unbelievable Giant Tad



## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

This is for general discussion, and not tadpole care here.
Ok i am serious here, i have a tad pole that has gotten under my false bottom, I wanna say about a year ago, first 2 Azureus tads went missing before i could screen up water feature drain . Hoped they werent deposited in there at the time, but opened up an area in soil and screen where if they did morph, they would see the light and come out there. never saw anything till tonite, almost a year later.
I was sittin at my desk and saw some movement under the false bottom at front of tank, so i grabbed a flashlight and checked around, and all of the sudden this tadpole emerged out of the merky depth, the body on it is the size of a grown mans thumb from knuckle to tip, Its enormous, It has tiny little back legs that look pretty developed and pretty long tail, i dont remember any front legs, but i dont think i was looking at the time, As he would come and go eating flies that were washing down opening into false bottom. 
Called the wife in to look and she thought it was a rock sittin there till it moved and swam away, she was as astonished as i am.
Yes i tried to get pics, but reflection from flash only shows glass and nothing beyond it.
I will get some pics of this thing somehow and post, but for now its like the lochness, sightings with no proof.
My question is for all of you, why has it gotten so big and never morphed into frog?
Is it due to lack of light?
Lack of exit route?
Seriously , its huge for any Pdf.
Anyone else have a tad experience like this?
Any thoughts on how to get it out?
*Here's Nessie !!!!*


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Sounds crazy! Maybe when it morphs it will be a huge frog. :lol: Can't wait for pics.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There have been periodic reports of monster tadpoles or "forever" tadpoles in this and other forums (although I can't think of the search phrase to pull them up). There maybe something disrupting the hormonal regulation of metamorphosis (this is possible with a lot of things, such as tumors, thyroxin insufficiency or genetic issues). The only way to know what maybe going on is to sacrifice the tadpole and have it necropsied and examined under the microscope.

Ed


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Whoa! That is a huge tadpole!!! I have one close to the same size as that, but it is because it consumed 4 clucthes of eggs during the time it was "missing".

Maybe yours found something nutritous for it to eat down there


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i would use a fish net to get it out, just lift the screen and substrate up a bit so you have enough room to trap trap the bugger, be sneaky cuz these guys are fast!! YOURS might be a bit lethargic though (LOL). id remove any frogs that are currently in the tank, and put them in a 16 oz container or any other small container with a damp paper towel and lid for the time you are trying to fish the tad out to avoid potential stress...


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

Are you sure it didn't eat any adults? That sings sounds enormous. Catch him and get better pictures!


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Ed,
I have to question the fact that there is no light and no easy way out.
Meaning, has lack of light kept him from developing normally and crawling out a small area he was given, or limited access out would just keep him in tad stage because of survival skills.
I know some bullfrog tads will stay tads for up to 3 yrs, not sure why...
Took good look at him last nite, and he has no front legs. In comparison to his body, .tiny back legs are there with sizable tail.
Should i put a light under tank to see if he will Morph, probably a good little study.
This tank has been setup for about 3yrs, I love it and to do anything to extract tad, would mean almost destroying tank, or atleast pulling frogs from it and opening up something large enough, still could go on for months...
Even if i did pull it, it would never morph at this point, legs would never support such a monster.
It seems im stuck with a Paludarium for now, or how ever its spelled.


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

it would be a shame to rip apart a perfectly good viv but you should get this oddity out no matter what just to satisfy my curiosity 8). ive never heard of a giant tad and would love to see a clear shot of it.


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## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

I don't know what caused your tads condition, but speaking on my own experieince, I had a "giant" tad once. It was extremely large comparted to all the other tads I raised from these parents (or any other) and took 6 months to finally morph (auratus). It was in the water so long, I jokingly refered to it as my pet goldfish. When it did finaly morph, it was very plump, had strange skin, and was spindly (note arm folded under body)


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

from that picture it looks like you should be able to net him out, or even get a hand on him!

And it may be way out there, but you are sure this *is* an azures tad right? :idea:


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Could you unscreen the drain (his supposed way in) and use some big tubing to siphon him out? It might take a couple tries of emptying and refilling, but I think that that might be your best option?


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Or you could lure him out with a double-quarter-pounder. :lol:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

porkchop said:


> Ed,
> I have to question the fact that there is no light and no easy way out.
> Meaning, has lack of light kept him from developing normally and crawling out a small area he was given, or limited access out would just keep him in tad stage because of survival skills.
> I know some bullfrog tads will stay tads for up to 3 yrs, not sure why....


If you can see the tadpole then it is getting a photoperiod. You opened up an area which allows light to penetrate (or did you cover it back up?) is what was stated below a year ago which is why I wasn't really paying attention to photoperiod. 
I wouldn't compare the length of time to bullfrog tadpoles as the ones that take three years typically are exposed to longer winters which reduces the rate of metamorphosis. Bullfrog tadpoles can metamorph is as little as 5 weeks when conditions are optimal (see http://govdocs.aquake.org/cgi/reprint/2 ... 240150.pdf) but combinations of larval density, food quality and temperature can increase this period to as long as 3 years. 


There have been some studies on development and photoperiod in temperate anurans but if I remember correctly some of the results may be species specific. see http://www.cababstractsplus.org/google/ ... 0043165296 for one example 

Ed


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

edwing206 said:


> Or you could lure him out with a double-quarter-pounder. :lol:


Make it a combo and he is sure to come out.


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Well remember when i said i lost 2 tads everyone, there seems to be a second one i spotted, not as big, maybe 1/2 the size, no legs at all.
So i think i will have to start the extraction after all.
Will move frogs out and cut out a good size portion of false bottom and nab them.
Wow, that sucks, oh well, it'll be interesting. will post again when extracted.

Thanks for info Ed, 
As far as light goes, i opened up a 1"x3" area 10mo. ago in front of tank, but covered w/ big rocks so my adults didnt go down there. there is space of substrate thickness between water level and 2 large rocks, thinking a froglet could get out between boulders above, and an adult couldnt get under. So light was still at a minimum.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When looking at photoperiod induced items, it typically is not the intenstity of the light that triggers these items but duration of the dark period. Interupting the dark period even for a short period is often all that is needed. 

Here is one that may interest you given that red wavelengths penetrate the furthest into water... 
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6793/3/9

Ed


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## EricT (Nov 10, 2007)

Please keep us posted here....


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## Rodney (Feb 18, 2008)

I cant wait to see this!


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Next time in ENGLISH Ed, little over my head with all those terms.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Basically in "short"... its not the length of time exposed to light that in a number of things that determines the photoperiod but the length of time the darkness is uninterrupted by any light. So if metamorphosis is being triggered by photoperiod then the intensity (strength) of the light doesn't matter. This makes sense if you consider different habitats. If the tadpole is in conditions that shade the tadpole or otherwise filter the light (under a heavy canopy, tree hole, algae suspended in the water, debris in the water, tin can in a pile of cans, to name a few possible scenarios) then this shading doesn't put the tadpole at a disadvantage of taking longer to metamorph thus exposing it to greater risks of predation, dessication etc. 

Is the false bottom sealed off on all four sides on the outside of the enclosure? There isn't any light shining up from below the tank? (like tanks kept on a metal rack)


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Thanks for the interpretation, that was much easier on me...
Actually, its a pentagon tank and was on a stand all that time up until recently (2wks ago) i revamped room and put on rack, so it is getting little light now through muck on bottom.
But there has always been that 1" of water space between bottom rim tank and false bottom as in pic.
obviously that wasnt enough... and light really doesnt get through much now on bottom w/ all the muck, i try with flashlight to find them, but its pretty thick.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

IME they usually die.....or partially morph to a 'defective' animal.

Enjoy it while you can.

S


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Thanks Shawn, i kinda figured that... 
But will probably extract just to get em out .
keep ya all posted...


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> Here is one that may interest you given that red wavelengths penetrate the furthest into water...


Actually, blue light penetrates the furthest. Red is one of the first colors to be absorbed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cindre2000 said:


> Ed said:
> 
> 
> > Here is one that may interest you given that red wavelengths penetrate the furthest into water...
> ...



This actually depends on the turbidity of the water. If there are a lot of dissolved items like humic acids (as seen in the leachates from the substrates typically used in the terraria) then blue is strongly absorbed.... (see http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/k ... 2/00202854 ) for one discussion. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I have one now, big aggressive albino Borja Ridge vent tad, 2x the size of other tads, and now going on 4 mo in the water without a back leg bump....I love feeding it.

S


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I just discovered a huge tad in one of my tad jars, its an azureus tad and it is well over 1 inch on the body plus the tail and it has tiny back leggs so we shalll see when it comes out.


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Wow, must be somethin in the water suddenly, huh ?


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## roxrgneiss (Sep 30, 2007)

Here's a question for you, Ed - it may sound a little silly - how does the intensity of light from a full moon or other phase affect wild tad development/morphing rates? Would there be monthly growth peaks/wanes. Are tads unaffected by this kind of light?

Thanks,
Mike


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

oh man dont rip up the tank tony! thats my favorite one you had(not that the others werent cool too). plus if what everyone says is true about it morphing deformed or just turning up dead then why not leave it in there and see how big it gets before that? im curious to see how big it gets and how big it would be if it morphed.

but the one thing i know for sure is...get more pictures :mrgreen:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

roxrgneiss said:


> Here's a question for you, Ed - it may sound a little silly - how does the intensity of light from a full moon or other phase affect wild tad development/morphing rates? Would there be monthly growth peaks/wanes. Are tads unaffected by this kind of light?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike


The honest answer is unknown. As far as I know, the studies have only been of different fixed photoperiods. 

Ed


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## roxrgneiss (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks, Ed. What you've said about light so far got me thinking... it would be interesting to find out what part lunar cycles may play. I always enjoy these types of discussions; I've learned a lot through reading many you've been a part of. 

Mike


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

your welcome Mike. 

There is some thought among some circles that lunar cycles may play a role in some nocturnal species but not too much thought on diurnal or crepuscular species. If you checked out the red light link about you can see that the frogs can get photoperiod information from the pineal gland even when they are blind so when they are asleep its possible they are still getting some cues however this would be more likely for those species that do not go under leaf litter or other materials for shelter. 

Ed


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

Updates?


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Sorry everyone, no updates , as i havent done anything about it.
They are still swimmin around in there, see em all the time now.
Just cant find it in myself to tear apart tank to pull tads that will likely die anyway...
But if i do i will post here again...
Thanks all...


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

sounds like a good idea to me, but any more pictures?


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Well, now i might be tearin through it anyway...
Moving one frog out for indefinite term, will only be 1 frog in it then, so i might as well.
I might just open up a nice size hole (repairable of course) then flood the tank a bit and wait to nab a couple unsuspecting explorers, then when they are out, drain it back down, give it a good cleaning and slight makeover, and "viola", Ready for inhabitants again !!!
might be a while, so i will post when its goin on... :?


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

Sounds like a plan.
Be prepared though, your 15 year old tadpole may be too wise


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Hahaaha...
I was a teen once too...
If he does out smart me, well then, the tank is his....


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Pull em out! Pleeease! You are speaking the equivalent of a 40 foot gator in the sewer. Must see!


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Hahahaha... believe it or not, the tank has been empty for about 3wks, havnt had any time to tear into it, or motivation, Its over 2yrs old and seasoned nicley, hate to destroy it.
Will do soon though when i get time and i will post some good shots.
And i think there is 3 tads last count, each smaller than the other.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

then don't destroy it. is there seriously no possible way to gain access to the bottom without severe damage? a pond (for example) could be removed and somewhat easily replaced without messing up the landscaping. its just a matter of waiting. tadpoles aren't exactly bold animals in my past experiences.

i'm thinking that its the lack of land thats causing it to not morph.
i remember once when i was young, i had gotten a bunch of leopard and bull frog tadpoles from a local pond in spring. i kept some in a tank that sloped up to land on one side. kept some in a tank with nothing but water. the ones with access to land grew there rear legs and could be often seen sitting at the waters edge. they eventually morphed. the ones in the fully aquatic tank also grew rear legs, but they were tiny and after that nothing happened. later in summer the young frogs and tad poles were released back into the pond they came from.

not saying that every instance of a tad not morphing is caused by lack of land, but it seems to have an effect on them.


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Ok, So 10 mo. later...
Tore it down a couple Months ago. Couldnt find Nessie....But.
Did find this one lone tad, Pulled it and morphed it after being under false bottom for 8mo.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Wow! Glad to see 'Nessie' - or one of it's siblings - made it out ok!

I've had an azureus tad under my false bottom as well. I last saw it three months ago - it was also huge and had just started to develop back legs. I'm tearing that tank down in a month of so - I'm curious to see if it's still under there.

Cheers,


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Couldn't find Nessie? That's too bad... I was excited to see her (him?).

I'm going to throw an idea out there and see what you think.... I used to be into fish a little, not much, but a little. Sometimes I would over-populate my aquarium and young fish wouldn't get any bigger 'cause there wasn't a lot of space. It's my experience that generally life handles what's thrown at it. So, if the tad was trapped under the false bottom, when it started developing its hindlegs and couldn't find any dry land maybe it stopped morphing so it could keep all its water parts so it could live longer.... Yes? Or is this maybe a foolish idea?


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

that makes sense to me. The one you did get to morph porkchop looks sweet. My azureus' all have alot more black splotches. When i had my oversized tad he did not make it. turned in front legs. had a three legged frog that made it for several months on land, but he eventually gave up on me. Glad to hear you had some success out of it. it would have been a shame to tear down your tank and find nothing. bummer about nessie though


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

One of my Azurues tads is getting a bit huge in his/her container not nearly Nessie sized though.... 

Shame it never made it out


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I have an auratus tad that is almost 4 years old now. Just seeing how long he will live - he has (had) a bigger body than most. 

He has started to decline in the last few months so I am not sure how much longer he will last. Been a great discussion piece....


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Ya, Cool to hear other experiences.
I didnt post first pic of when tad was found, it was a regular looking limbless tad, a bit transparent in comparison to normal, but colored up shortly after.
i didnt find it with all the limbs like in pic above, but after all that time, obviously morphed out well. Real lathargic when i found though!
I love the spot pattern it has !
As far as nessie goes, would have been nice to see what it did, it was huge.


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