# Custom Vivarium issues. Look out.



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

These are just a small sampling of photos from vivs in my collection, that were custom made by the same builder.

Over time [not that much actually, in some cases only 6 mo] the slider frames have come loose, the screens have completely disintegrated and the spacing b/t the doors has become an issue.

If you have custom vivs like this be careful!

INSPECT THEM OFTEN:
Look at the door spacing. I've had froglets and some larger pumilio juvis escape through the spacing.

I've also now lost a number of adults through the screen tops, before I realized the screens were disintegrating. Now that I have noticed, I see almost all of them [60+ vivis from this vendor] are falling apart.

REPAIRING IS POSSIBLBE:
Fixing the screens now that the tanks are up, is a big hassle. It takes ~30 min+ each one, and you have to cut out the screen sections, temporarily cover the openings so as not to loose inhabitants, replace the screens, and re-silicone the sections in place, taping them for 24 hours to keep them secure. I've got many many hours of work ahead of me, and have lost some irreplaceable animals b/f i realized the extent of the problems. ;-(

The door gaps can be sealed using silicone stripes from Europe [Terasafe], or home made beads of silicone, but again, after the fact it is a pain b/c there are frogs in each viv, and moisture.

LOOK FOR ANOTHER SOURCE:
Be careful, monitor the vivs and now that you are away, look for another vendor or get a guarantee.

The builder hasn't been helpful to me. I would post the name/ or in Vendor Feedback, but the vendor has been banned from DB and the thread locked per UA.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)




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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

They must have made the screen sections way too tight. I've found that leaving alittle slack makes your screens last much longer.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I've had the same issues with the slider tracks.

Honestly though - that's a tough one to get on there permanently. When I've built tanks and/or repaired the tanks I bought, I've cleaned the track completely, and the surface I'm trying to adhere to completely - then smear just a bit of silicone on the track - and completely cover it. Not thickly either. Just cover it and make sure you've got no air pockets.

All the repair work I've done has stayed in place - we'll see how long that lasts though.

s


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

What kind of material is the screen? It almost looks cloth in the pictures.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I had screen do this to me on my tanks over the years (got screen at Home Depot), especially when exposed to UV or water. Now I only use stainless steal mesh or stainless steel perforated metal.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ive found myself Scott, that if I sandpaper the plastic track material b/f I silicone it back, it seems to 'take' better. The glass needs to be cleaned with alcohol prior too.

Sucks


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

sports_doc said:


> The builder hasn't been helpful to me. I would post the name/ or in Vendor Feedback, but the vendor has been banned from DB and the thread locked per UA.


 Once again, the feedback section here falls short. It's too bad you cannot let the masses know who the builder is. 

How about this. May I ask who built these vivs? I'm not asking for your feedback, just looking for factual answer that no one would dispute.


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

You have to be careful when sanding the door track. You just want scratches and to much sanding can be counter productive. I recommend using the point of a wood screw to score the crap out of it. That gives it a lot more deep scratches to stick to then sanding will. 

Also, if you need some heavy duty stainless to fix your vents shoot me a pm. 

Casper




sports_doc said:


> Ive found myself Scott, that if I sandpaper the plastic track material b/f I silicone it back, it seems to 'take' better. The glass needs to be cleaned with alcohol prior too.
> 
> Sucks


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> Once again, the feedback section here falls short. It's too bad you cannot let the masses know who the builder is.
> 
> How about this. May I ask who built these vivs? I'm not asking for your feedback, just looking for factual answer that no one would dispute.


Lets just say it is a banned vendor and leave it at that.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

frogface said:


> What kind of material is the screen? It almost looks cloth in the pictures.


Kris

Its some sort of 'no see um' mesh, so likely not a retail/ HD product anyway, but ordered by the Vendor in question. 

It literally melted. When I contacted the Vendor, he told me he would mail out replacement screen material asap [never happened], but again the issue isnt 50$ worth of screen, its the bad craftsmanship, loss of animals and hours of time 'fixing' his mistakes.

All the glass doors were supposed to arrive with the silicone beads put on them at the time of building [they didnt], although anyone who has dealt with this fellow knows all too well, what you order [prepay mind you] isnt typically what he shows up with [late of course].

Ive only had a few bad experiences over the past 10+ years and this vendor hits top 3.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> Lets just say it is a banned vendor and leave it at that.


Which does nothing to help anyone who doesn't already know who you're talking about. Anyone new to the hobby will have no clue and won't be helped by this thread whatsoever.

For the rest of us, well, this is just confirmation of what we already knew.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

mindcrash said:


> Which does nothing to help anyone who doesn't already know who you're talking about. Anyone new to the hobby will have no clue and won't be helped by this thread whatsoever.
> 
> For the rest of us, well, this is just confirmation of what we already knew.


I hear you Aaron.

Folks can and will email me I am sure. I have no problems confirming for them.

If I post the name here, it will be against the UA and pulled, so lets just stick to the 'rules' while we have them.

Personally, I would have preferred to post the entire 'thread' in his feedback page to begin with. I hope everyone understands that.

Now, the other reason for taking the time to take all the pictures, upload them and post this thread is to remind folks that things like this can lead to loss of cherished animals, so inspect your tanks. More often then I did, apparently.

We've all heard [or even experienced] stories of plants popping tops off of fish tank lids and animals getting free. This falls in that category, although I think it would be preventable if the craftsmanship was there, and certainly 'fixable' if the vendor gave a crap.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Is the mesh nylon or wire? Stainless? I've thought about purchasing some from McMaster and other suppliers, but if this is the result, I won't bother.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Sorry about your losses Shawn. 

Looks like no-see-um mesh to me.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I've "scored" it a bit with a good sharp knife. Sort of the same thing.

s


Ghost vivs said:


> You have to be careful when sanding the door track. You just want scratches and to much sanding can be counter productive. I recommend using the point of a wood screw to score the crap out of it. That gives it a lot more deep scratches to stick to then sanding will.
> 
> Also, if you need some heavy duty stainless to fix your vents shoot me a pm.
> 
> Casper


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm sorry that you had so many problems with your vivs, Shawn. I have 5 custom vivariums that came in with many of the same issues, plus a few others, but I won't go there. I'll just post my solution to the tracks. 
1) Remember that fresh silicone does NOT stick to cured silicone. When your tracks peeled off, they probably left 100% of the silicone on the glass. You must be religious about getting every bit of old silicone off. Use lots of single edged razor blades.
2) I put 60 grit sandpaper in my belt sander. I run the sander on its slowest setting, and move it hard, but quickly, over the trim. Just one fast pass. The 60 grit sandpaper gives me great gouges without ever going too deep.
3) Clean both surfaces with alcohol.
4) Run a single, approximately 1/8" bead of 100% Silicone on the trim. Do NOT smooth it out. I have found that they attach much better if the silicone is fresh and untouched. Simply pressing it into place will "spread" it for complete coverage. I've been experimenting with taping the tracks in place while they dry, and I've also played with putting the doors in the tracks to hold them in place while they dry.
So far the repairs have been holding up great.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I guess the safe thing to do is to not purchase vivs from small builders. I guess this particular builder gives them all a black eye. 

I guess Zoo Med or Exo Terra are safe brands then.


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

This statement makes no sense at all. 

This builder gives himself a black eye. Nothing he builds reflects on the ones I build. Same thing can be said for Wes and Shermans vivs.

Casper




ecichlid said:


> I guess the safe thing to do is to not purchase vivs from small builders. I guess this particular builder gives them all a black eye.
> 
> I guess Zoo Med or Exo Terra are safe brands then.


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## IEatBugs (May 15, 2012)

Shawn I can only imagine your frustration...terribly sorry to hear about your losses.
You mentioned Terasafe, a quick google sesrch did not pull anything up for me would you happen to have a link? 

I most definitely agree with Casper here. This guy rained on his own parade, there is no reason what so ever to not use one of the other small time builders rather than something from one of the "big box" guys. Your going to get a quality product from a hobbyist that cares by going with one of the respected small builders.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Shawn....you KNOW where to leave vendor feedback for him.

Over on my Forum.

Do it !


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Well im not gonna say that im not a bit concerned after reading this considering that I have alot of these tanks myself.
Im really hoping that I dont have to worry about it.
BUT ive had some of my tanks for almost a year now & have had ZERO issues.

Are you by chance placing your UVB lighting directly on top of the screen?

Btw Shawn ... I use Pyle Weather-stripping to seal the gap inbetween the doors, (instead of silicone or U-Channel). It actually works very well. You may want to look into it.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

If I happen to have a vivarium that I am just setting up like this should I cut my losses now and just rip the screen and tracks off and redo them?


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## kermit2 (Jun 3, 2004)

I ve had mine for over a year and a half now and knock on wood no problems. For lighting I use jungle dawns and 10 k daylight bulbs not uvb. Uvb eats no see um and fiberglass screen The uvb is on the metal screened tanks. Run a bead of silicone down the space between door when the doors are on and close. Let it cure for a day then slice carefully with a razor. Weather stripping works great too.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Ghost vivs said:


> This statement makes no sense at all.
> 
> This builder gives himself a black eye. Nothing he builds reflects on the ones I build. Same thing can be said for Wes and Shermans vivs.
> 
> Casper


Sure it does. You and the people who "liked" your post are members of the "in". My statement makes no sense to you because you are unable to think like someone who is newer in the hobby and does not know who is who in the small world of viv building. *Your* follow-up statement makes no sense to me. Who are you?? I don't know who Wes and Sherman are either. I would sure like to!

For someone like me who is who is shopping for his next viv, you all make it very hard to figure out who to purchase from and who not to. If someone as experienced as Sports Doc can get taken, I guess there is little hope for someone like me. This whole thing is a riddle wrapped in an enigma.

I feel bad for you Sports Doc, you have a bunch of work on your hands. You really seem to care about the hobby and are happy to help others. You don't deserve what happened to you. But this site makes it a challenge for me to pull anything of value out of your post. Once again, the reviews section here falls short. You can't do a review because the company that you would review is banned here? This site continues to do a wonderful job in protecting the terrible manufacturers and frog breeders.

I really need to learn this site's secret handshake.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ghost vivs said:


> This statement makes no sense at all.
> 
> This builder gives himself a black eye. Nothing he builds reflects on the ones I build. Same thing can be said for Wes and Shermans vivs.
> 
> Casper


I have run a business for a while now and I can tell your for absolute sure that someone who competes with you and builds a similar products or has similarities in any way absolutely can cost you sales and reflect poorly on you. I have personally missed out on multiple sales worth thousands of dollars per year because of a competitor who gave our product a bad name. The fact is its in your best interest to get these things fleshed out. Just look at this post, is it not possible someone could mistake these vivs for yours? Or simply say I am not at all sure which one is bad so I will avoid ANY that look like them. What about even if they knew the name and they just forgot and only remembered pictures? There are lots of random occurrences out there. Ask a company like MS who has eaten huge amounts of bad press because of things their vendors did, or just bad software writers. 

To the untrained eye all your vivarium's look exactly the same and if one person builds a bad one a certain percent of the buyers will associate that design with failure regardless of who bought it. 

ecichlid makes very valid points. BTW I have not confirmed this builder but if it is who I think it is I am $435 deep in this mess too in what was suppose to be my first vivarium. A quick search here when I was decision making netted me nothing. And another forum actually had the moderator of the forum singing the praises of this vivarium. All of it has been incredibly bad for me personally. 

The internet works by searches and if you cant freaking link a person to bad reviews because no one is allowed to talk about them guess what that means? They don't have any bad reviews to the newcomer. Later upon deeper searching I have discovered pandoras box. But ya, sooner or later I am going to have something's to say about this whole mess.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

This site's secret handshake is really quite simple. It is called private messaging or email the person. PM me and ask if you like. Email Shawn and ask him privately. He has clearly stated he will tell anyone who asks him. Or you could you know, look through threads started by Shawn, I'm certain he has mentioned who he bought his tanks from.

You could start here:

Link 1

Or here:

Link 2


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

The community messages section of the forum might hold a clue as well, here is a link a post here by the site owner no less to a company that has been banned here.

Link


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

ecichlid said:


> I guess the safe thing to do is to not purchase vivs from small builders. I guess this particular builder gives them all a black eye.
> 
> I guess Zoo Med or Exo Terra are safe brands then.


This is no small builder, the one in question ( we all know who) is one of, if not the largest custom vivarium builder in the country. He deals on volume, not quality. The thing is, and what alot of us dont realize, he does nto make just poinson dart frog vivs. Hes building for chameleon keepers, tartuala, gecko keepers, snake keepers, etc. PDF's are just a section of his bussiness. Shawn, I havnt looked yet, but I would plaster this ALL over The frog Whisperer, where you can say what you want, and NEED TO. Sorry for the losses and all that rebuild work you've got ahead of you


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

I can understand your frustration with the feedback here but to lump every builder together is just as frustrating. 

Casper




ecichlid said:


> Sure it does. You and the people who "liked" your post are members of the "in". My statement makes no sense to you because you are unable to think
> like someone who is newer in the hobby and does not know who is who in the small world of viv building. *Your* follow-up statement makes no sense to me. Who are you?? I don't know who Wes and Sherman are either. I would sure like to!
> 
> For someone like me who is who is shopping for his next viv, you all make it very hard to figure out who to purchase from and who not to. If someone as experienced as Sports Doc can get taken, I guess there is little hope for someone like me. This whole thing is a riddle wrapped in an enigma.
> ...


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Well I guess it's a good thing that my design looks nothing like the ones Shawn is having troubles with... an untrained eye is not needed to tell the difference. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/117825-ghost-vivariums.html

Casper




Pubfiction said:


> To the untrained eye all your vivarium's look exactly the same and if one person builds a bad one a certain percent of the buyers will associate that design with failure regardless of who bought it.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ See this thread is an opportunity to advertise....lol...and formally post who it 'isnt', no? Some people here use to work with this Vendor no?

As pointed out above, the search feature can easily define for you who made many of the vivs in question without 'outing' someone in this warning thread about viv builds.....which would make it 'feedback' and end in the thread being locked/removed.

I cant help the gecko/snake etc crowd though I am afraid. I only know the PDF mob.

I wasnt 'taken' as someone suggested, it was a conscious decision to give someone a second chance after a lot happened in their lives, and ultimately fate took them to the next State over from me. I was giving someone an opportunity to make good, and in the beginning I was very supportive publicly [U can find those threads also]. 

I ignored the little things like 'my phone isnt working', or 'ive been sick, or the kids been sick', excuses...but after hearing the same ones 'my car died' , 'I am waiting on supplies', 'I am moving' 'my mother in law sucks', etc over and over for 6 mo and EVERY order being late. Sometimes by days, sometimes by MONTHS. I was left waiting for him to show up on weeknights of promised delivery day, and arranged weekends, even as late at midnight....and he would no show, no call, no warning....craziest shit ever and I cant believe I let it go so long.....eventually I gave up. Fired him. I had no back up plan at the time, I just knew I couldnt do this for the remaining 50+ vivs I needed any longer. 

What came when it did.... wasnt perfect, some of the vivs are so different in size you cant fit them side by side on the racks. Holes were drilled in the wrong places, etc. Those things are all reflective of someones lack of care. 

Now, the lights are over the vents, yes. That was the point of the vent placement to allow UVB to penetrate. It does, but clearly the materials dont hold up.

All the ones with Stainless from Chris Sherman hold up fine, and I think others have pointed that out now.

At the time, Todd from LYR was trying to work with the Viv Vendor also, and I dont think anyone realized the extent that UV light might affect the materials.

That said, the lower vents with the same NSE mesh are failing also, and they are in no contact at all [zero UV on the meter] with the light. They are in much better shape, 1 year, but wont last long. They will be harder to replace than the top venting for sure.

Listen to the red flags when you contact someone. Did they respond promptly?, were there excuses when issues arose?, did they demand prepayment months ahead of time? have they responded when problems were identified and did they fix the situation themselves? 

Hindsight is 20:20. Ive got perfect vision....now


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> I'm sorry that you had so many problems with your vivs, Shawn. I have 5 custom vivariums that came in with many of the same issues, plus a few others, but I won't go there. I'll just post my solution to the tracks.
> 1) Remember that fresh silicone does NOT stick to cured silicone. When your tracks peeled off, they probably left 100% of the silicone on the glass. You must be religious about getting every bit of old silicone off. Use lots of single edged razor blades.
> 2) I put 60 grit sandpaper in my belt sander. I run the sander on its slowest setting, and move it hard, but quickly, over the trim. Just one fast pass. The 60 grit sandpaper gives me great gouges without ever going too deep.
> 3) Clean both surfaces with alcohol.
> ...


Good tips Doug, thanks!!

Coming over and helping me with the 50+ of these in my FR? 

JK of course....[not]


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

For the record:
Sherman Tanks are not the focus of this thread.

Sherman Tanks use Stainless Steel mesh for all ventilation, and custom milled glass track to reduce the gap between the glass doors.

Full disclosure:
Shawn did inform me that some of his tracks that had fallen off of the glass. I believe that we have come up with a reliable fix that has solved this problem permanently. (More on this when Beta testing is complete.)

There were also a couple of tanks that leaked. I have since increased the size of the bead of silicone on the bottoms of tanks and have not heard of any more tanks that leaked.

*Important Note:* Please water test any and all tanks that you receive from anyone. This includes tanks from us little custom guys and the big boys Exo-Terra and Zoo-Med. It is much easier to fix a leaking tank before it is filled with drainage layers, dividers, substrate, wood, plants, frogs, etc..

Chris Sherman
Sherman Tanks


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I agree with Sherman. Almost 50% of my Exo Terra leaks. I discussed this in another thread. Better water test each viv. Here in Europe we use common E track, whose gaps are not as wide as those of Shawn (at least mine are not so large). It is a crime to propose for sale defective products.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Chris' comments weren't necessary....but he is just 'that kind of guy'. [good way]

And no, the issues I am reporting are not with my 50 Sherman Vivs Jeremy so don't worry 

Leaks happen. With 110 vivs, it is bound to be an issue in a couple %. I admit, setting up that many vivs was a huge undertaking for me and I didnt pre-test for leaks.  lol


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

A shameless plug was not the intent of my post. I only put a link up to show a untrained eye can tell the difference. I originally posted to this thread to give a tip and to offer help. I didn't think I was going to have to defend my vivs. (Or V-scape or Sherman tanks) But I definitely don't like to be lumped into the same category as the vendor in question. Mater of fact this vendor was the driving force behind me starting to build them myself. I saw his work 1st hand at frog day and was blown away by his lack of quality and craftsmanship. And then I talked to him... sealed the deal.

Casper


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

sports_doc said:


> I cant help the gecko/snake etc crowd though I am afraid. I only know the PDF mob.


Just purchased six El Cope's from Rusty_Shackleford! I'm in baby! (now I have to purchase an enclosure to house them, thus my interest in this thread )


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

As for the screen issues, a way to patch them fairly easily if they don't have to hold weight in those sections is with foam like this...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...c-filter-foam-fans-vents-ff-lids-etc-etc.html

You could trim off the sharp parts, (careful not to let them drop in viv)... Then use a non toxic glue, maybe hot glue and put the foam patch over it, or silicone or whatever if you remove the animals which I assume would be gone anyways with a huge hole in the lid 

If it needs to hold weight you could lay down a thin piece of aluminum tubing, strip, whatever...maybe even wood or something, as a brace where whatever is is sitting on it makes contact to hold the weight.

Just some ideas 

I guess if you didn't mind a black strip being there you could cut the foam in a strip an hot glue it in the gap between the doors for some of the slider problems (I just scanned the thread, this may not even be applicable). If that is an issue though, it should let you slide em but keep that gap closed enough to at least keep small frogs in if not FFs


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

sports_doc said:


> ^
> 
> Listen to the red flags when you contact someone. Did they respond promptly?, were there excuses when issues arose?, did they demand prepayment months ahead of time? have they responded when problems were identified and did they fix the situation themselves?
> 
> Hindsight is 20:20. Ive got perfect vision....now


He responded quick when I wanted to order a viv! in retrospect the 100% prepay seems pretty ridiculous. Will report back if I ever get delivery of my viv...


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Why would anyone pay a contractor of any kind 100% in full before a job is even started?? Im going to go on a limb and guess that it takes him a long time to get a viv completed. I think it would be foolish to pay more than a deposit of 50% for a custom viv. If it's a standard offering, it should be even less than that.

By doling a little Google research, what I have found is that there is no competition for this guy, other than a few people who do it on the side and do not have a business with at least a website. If this is true, you can expect more of the same. This guy can make an inferior product and set the terms and timeline as he sees fit

If there was a person that had the know-how AND was business savvy, this guy would be out of business in no time. Until then, he's in the driver's seat.

I could be in all wrong about the above. It's just my newbie perception. If I'm wrong, please set me straight.

In the meantime, my quest for a large viv with cabinet/stand continues.


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> By doling a little Google research, what I have found is that there is no competition for this guy, other than a few people who do it on the side and do not have a business with at least a website. If this is true, you can expect more of the same. This guy can make an inferior product and set the terms and timeline as he sees fit
> 
> If there was a person that had the know-how AND was business savvy, this guy would be out of business in no time. Until then, he's in the driver's seat.


That's right - but the bigger issue (for me at least) is that none of the quality small builders ship. And I couldn't find anyone that offered professionally built vivs in the entire state of California.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

ecichlid said:


> Why would anyone pay a contractor of any kind 100% in full before a job is even started?? Im going to go on a limb and guess that it takes him a long time to get a viv completed. I think it would be foolish to pay more than a deposit of 50% for a custom viv. If it's a standard offering, it should be even less than that.
> 
> By doling a little Google research, what I have found is that there is no competition for this guy, other than a few people who do it on the side and do not have a business with at least a website. If this is true, you can expect more of the same. This guy can make an inferior product and set the terms and timeline as he sees fit
> 
> ...


There are a few other builders around but ya from my search doesn't look like many. Maybe taping custom aquarium makers to do vivs (if they'll try) would be a way to go? Or shops that do general acrylic work (I've seen some in the past who did aquariums a some of their many products)?... Somehow I'm not exactly sure who we are talking about so I won't list the few I did manage to find on google, but understory (who I'm pretty sure we aren't talking about) does or used to do custom vivs, and they do a 50% deposit.

I prefer that business model but sometimes especially if they are small and don't have the cash reserves they may need the money up front. I can build a pretty decent viv. I could add FX to it, or an existing viv for someone but I'm broke... If they want it, especially if it is a long drive or I figured out a way to ship they'd have to pay me all up front, because I couldn't afford the materials otherwise. 

Now if they lived close I might be like, "well I'll get started for half or whatever and if you don't like what I'm doing then you can take over and keep what we've done so far". (I would factor in some labor costs into whatever I'd charged up to that point).

I doesn't necessarily mean they suck and/or are going to rip you off... There are other factors at work, and really it boils down to if you want it, and you want it from that person you gotta do it like that, and if they have a good rep/mad skillz and/or very little competition it is easier for them to operate with that model...and I think most business/sellers would like to have all the money up front. While it may not work for many products/industries especially with more competition in them, no doubt many would do it that way if they could. It is usually easier to keep all the money then get the other half out of someone. But ya I to would prefer the deposit model.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Wow Dave. And I thought I was wordy.

In all seriousness, you and I agree. I did find a local builder with a good reputation. It's between him and Exo Terra. Gotta get ready for the new frogs!

Sorry for hijacking the thread Sports Doc. BTW, as a Sports Doc, do you ever recommend protein shakes to your clients? My guess is no.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

It also doesn't help that he is allowed to advertise on the sites of people who know very well what is reputation is, but they will sell out in a heart beat for a free vivarium.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

ecichlid said:


> Wow Dave. And I thought I was wordy.
> 
> In all seriousness, you and I agree. I did find a local builder with a good reputation. It's between him and Exo Terra. Gotta get ready for the new frogs!
> 
> Sorry for hijacking the thread Sports Doc. BTW, as a Sports Doc, do you ever recommend protein shakes to your clients? My guess is no.


Ya that dang frog IQ thread put my brain into overly analytic wind bag mode I think


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

While all the research I have done on the guy indicates he's a scumbag who enjoys support on a number of forums, the screen issue may be dependent on your use of UVB (if you are indeed using it)


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Damn Shawn, really sorry to see this. I was just thinking today that I might think of ordering from there again... ha! Your story sounds eerily familiar, except for number of tanks. I was really hoping he was gonna pull his head out after having a 'big' person like you buy so many.

You could always get some fast marine epoxy for those door channels as long as you want them to be friends forever.

Good luck with getting things fixed, hope you didn't loose anything too bad.


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## RobertN (Apr 15, 2006)

I had issues with frame/door fell off and frogs escape through the gap as well. I didn't go through all pages to see if anyone already offered a solution. For me, the frame works better if the plastic frames are on all 4 sides of the doors. To cover the gap between doors, you can use the glass canopy hinge. it works well and less pain to deal with.

Glass Canopy Hinges | thatpetplace.com

Robert.


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

Not much of an update...but still didn't get my viv or even a reply from this turkey. I know he has had some health issues - but its been a while and his site is still up and mentions nothing about order delays or not shipping anything at all...


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