# Overwhelmed



## Ssv (Feb 26, 2018)

Ive always been interested in dartfrogs and ive finally taken the the first steps into the hobby and built a viv over Christmas. Now ive been following threads of whom seem to be some of the more senior/knowledge members here for a while and ive done countless hours of research and i would like some first hand advice of what frog would make a good candidate for my current and future systems. With that I would like multiple species each in their own species specific enclosures.
Coming from 8 years (and counting) of reefing I try to be as responsible as possible, in that I would like (and assume most if not all are) captive bred animals. Some of the traits I would like to see are hardy beginner friendly and social frogs. 

Viv parameters

20g vert 
Hydroton drainage
Homemade substrate similar to bag
Spag moss layer topped with leaf litter
Springs and isos
Temp 64-81(extremes) 68-76 with 72-74 being daily average
Humidity 80-95%
Natural indirect sunlight with supplemental led lighting


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

A pair of Dendrobates tinctorius or a pair of Dendrobates leucomelas would be perfect for that tank. Both species are very easy to take care of, and very bold and active. They also have alluring colors. Dendrobates auratus are about the same level of difficulty to take care of, but sometimes tend to be shy, and hide in the leaf litter and nooks and crannies. I have a pair of D. auratus 'costa rica', and they are very bold and active, but it took them a good couple of months to get to that point.

Very nice set-up overall. Also, don't be afraid to let your humidity to drop down into the 70s. The days of completely sealed, 90-100% humidity vivs is long behind us. Not saying you're doing this, just a head's up on a trap many early keepers fall into.


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## Ssv (Feb 26, 2018)

Thanks for the advice. Now how bout a place to get them. Ive checked out few places online but am undecided on who to buy from. Joshsfrogs usafrog and understory being the three top on my list thus far. 
As for humidity, I've actually been considering a fan.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Ssv said:


> Thanks for the advice. Now how bout a place to get them. Ive checked out few places online but am undecided on who to buy from. Joshsfrogs usafrog and understory being the three top on my list thus far.
> As for humidity, I've actually been considering a fan.


Local breeders are a good place to start when looking for frogs. It just depends on where you are as to whether you will find anyone in your area with frogs. Barring that, Josh's Frogs and Understory are both pretty safe bets to get some good frogs. You will not find very much support for USA Frogs on this board. For reference, you may want to look at the following thread (bring popcorn and a sleeping bag-you will be in for the long haul):

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...rtfrogs-designerfrogs-usafrog-frogsupply.html

Great job doing your research first. You will do a great job with whichever frogs you choose.

Mark


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## harrisbt (Feb 19, 2013)

Yeah, leucs or a smaller morph of tinctorius (like boulanger, bakhuis, or dwarf cobalt) would do well in a 20gal vert. With larger frogs, you risk them being terrestrial and not using the height of the tank. Vitattus and tricolor or anthonyi would do well, but those goons breed like rabbits, so you'd have another project on your hands if you got them... Someone else mentioned local breeders -- definitely check your community, but you can also put out a wanted ad for a specific species/morph/group and maybe get some hits. Lots of folks have a few extra frogs laying around and could use some extra money.

If you're doing your research, you're on the right track. Use the search function within DB and you'll get tons of good information. You can filter the posts by most replies (as opposed to most recent posting), which I find helps when looking for answers.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ssv said:


> Thanks for the advice. Now how bout a place to get them. Ive checked out few places online but am undecided on who to buy from. Joshsfrogs usafrog and understory being the three top on my list thus far.
> As for humidity, I've actually been considering a fan.


My momma taught me taught me, if you don't have something nice to say about somebody, don't say anything at all. While I haven't always listened to that advice, this time I will. Here's what I have to say about USAfrogs. "........"


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I see you used a layer of sphagnum moss on the ground.
Anybody??


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## Ssv (Feb 26, 2018)

I use the spag moss for a few reasons. One being its aesthetically pleasing. Two this is just as much about the plants and there are a few in there that don't appreciate standing water on their leaves, but they still want the humidity in their immediate vicinity. Three is the sheer amount of surface area compared to leaf litter alone. I figure it provides ample shelter for mircofauna.
As for usafrogs... If y'all say toss that idea then its tossed. 
Can anyone give some insight into ranitomeya variabilis. I would be more than willing to build a new enclosure if need be.
Also again thanks for your advice!


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## Roscoe09 (Dec 30, 2017)

Ssv said:


> I use the spag moss for a few reasons. One being its aesthetically pleasing. Two this is just as much about the plants and there are a few in there that don't appreciate standing water on their leaves, but they still want the humidity in their immediate vicinity. Three is the sheer amount of surface area compared to leaf litter alone. I figure it provides ample shelter for mircofauna.
> As for usafrogs... If y'all say toss that idea then its tossed.
> Can anyone give some insight into ranitomeya variabilis. I would be more than willing to build a new enclosure if need be.
> Also again thanks for your advice!


Your tank is as good as it gets for variabilis. Besides being smaller, they are awesome beginner frogs. All you have to be careful for is that they're fast and require smaller food items.
Edit: Forgot to add, If you go for variabilis you should add film canisters


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## Ssv (Feb 26, 2018)

That's awesome to hear. Also I've decided on a new build. Something long-term so in the next 6-12 months but I'm thinking roughly 300g. Still undecided on inhabitants but would like a biotope setup and would like to do everything I can to replicate a particular habitat not just the environment as a whole.


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## Roscoe09 (Dec 30, 2017)

Ssv said:


> That's awesome to hear. Also I've decided on a new build. Something long-term so in the next 6-12 months but I'm thinking roughly 300g. Still undecided on inhabitants but would like a biotope setup and would like to do everything I can to replicate a particular habitat not just the environment as a whole.


That’s pretty large. Have you looked into Ameeregas? They could easily use that space.


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## Ssv (Feb 26, 2018)

I want a large display for a focal point in my living space. Something more furniture like rather than a glass box on a stand or table. I'm by no means a master but I've done carpentry and other construction work for the past 8 years so I'm confident I can build something pretty nice. As far as frogs go I have considered ameeregas. Also and I realize this is founded on.. Especially for new keepers but in a space that large or even bigger say 6 to 8 ft long I think two small groups of R. flavovittata R. ventirmaculata or R. Uakarii could live peacefully being sympatric in the wild. My biggest concern would be hybridizing, though I suspect in a well planed and planted enclosure the two groups may be somewhat secluded from each other.


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## Ssv (Feb 26, 2018)

Every one member this is just an idea and a long term plan on a big enclosure. I still have months for researching and preparing.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

There have been many reports over the years about entire feet and even halfway up the leg, being eaten alive overnight, due to runaway bacterial infections. It's very similar to the flesh eating disease. Phylobates are particularly susceptible to it, with Terribilis being the one frog I've seen this happen to the most. It doesn't happen to just one frog. Once it starts, it's in there. The infection will spread to every frog unless measures are taken quickly. If the remaining frogs can be saved, you will still be looking at a complete breakdown and sterilization of your viv. Anything live or porous should probably be tossed.

Sphagnum hold a lot of water. More water than just about any other frog substrate I can imagine. It also drains very poorly.

Every single one of those reports came from waterlogged, saturated tanks, with most of them being sphagnum layer tanks.

Unfortunately, certain tutorials put out by certain vendors, still preach that practice. That's one of the reasons I won't do business with, or recommend, certain vendors anymore.

It's been responsible for a lot of dead frogs over the years. This seems to get readdressed once a year or so, when somebody posts that their frogs feet are down to bloody bone, and the flesh is sloughing off the legs. That's too many dead frogs.

It's your viv. Do what you wish, but know the hazards that have killed off other people's frogs and vivs.

Now if you want a substrate that holds a lot of water, while also being extremely well drained, look at making a good, calcium bearing clay substrate. You also mentioned microfauna. While I no longer distribute microfauna, a few years back I was pretty well known for my microfauna. I've distributed beyond hundreds of cultures, and I've experimented with more than a few ways to grow them. If you want microfauna production like you've never seen, the interface between the decomposing leaf litter, and a quality, homemade, calcium bearing, clay substrate, is hands down, the richest microfauna production I've every seen. In fact, all of my personal microfauna cultures are now grown on an inch of clay, with several inches of hand crushed leaf litter on top. Dwarf purple isopods, in particular, really accelerated production when I started culturing on clay. 

I was recently talking to a large orchid wholesaler in Canada, discussing the non-availability of tree fern products for a friend in Canada. It made my day...heck, it made my year, when he told me I should check out this homemade clay formula he had heard about from the US. I'm glad people continue to find this helpful. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html


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## Ssv (Feb 26, 2018)

I see your concern with the moss. If it makes a difference I don't mist heavily and never completely saturate the moss, but regardless I'll be making amendments for a more suitable environment.
I actually read that thread a few weeks ago. I was looking for faster plant growth without adding chemicals. Since most the the substrate we use is abg or at least similar, even when we add organic components that break down, the soil itself has a low fertility. I came across the thread looking for frog safe clays to use in an effort to increase CEC(cation exchange compacity) of the soil. I was really helpful.
I'm working on setting up a "culture center" if you will, it would be really cool if we could talk details on culturing.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ssv said:


> I'm working on setting up a "culture center" if you will, it would be really cool if we could talk details on culturing.


We can. I always do my best to return private messages, though it may take a while at times. If it's something I think others could benefit from, I may want to take it to the open forum.


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## Rich (Feb 8, 2018)

Resources like Doug and Ed are a great place to start and there is a wealth of knowledge here. Don't be afraid to ask we'll do our best to help.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

K.i.s.s.

Your over complicating things. Very easy to keep frogs and plants . Especially if you come from SW tanks. 

The sphagnum is a really bad idea. I know there's info out there about it being the thing to do, but its a terrible idea. It creates a soggy swampy mess. Rots plants and it will do the same for your frogs. Bad bacteria breeding ground. It's your tank do as you please, but we're just trying to help you from repeating past mistakes.

Abg has been used for yrs it's proven with no additives for great plant growth. Ive used turface for a long time and plants grow ridiculous in it as well. Faster plant growth isn't a good thing. If mine grew any faster it would be a constant fight. Abg/turface(clay if you have thumbs that need it) a nice layer of crushed leaves then another with whole. Call it a day. 

I think imitators would be a good fit for that tank or similar. Good luck. Tons of great info. Check out fruit fly genetics by Ed helped my fruit fly production a ton when I got back in. Doug is an orchid fiend which will probably be your next step since your a reefer


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