# Setting Up a Successful Mixed Enclosure



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I would like to share with you my experience with setting up and maintaining a successful mixed species enclosure. I am not a zoo keeper or a mad scientist. I am a simple hobbyist that grew bored with the single species set ups and wanted to try something a bit more challenging. My intent is not to breed the frogs and produce hybrids. It is for the simple pleasure and enjoyment of observing the frogs.

I ask that you please refrain from turning this into a bashing thread and only offer advice that will help increase the success of the mixed species enclosures. What I am providing is a simple frame work of what has worked for me. I’m sure there are more complex explanations and hopefully a lot of stuff I have not even tried or attempted. Let’s make this an educational thread that will add to the framework I am providing. 

If you feel the need to “rip me a new one” or the need to let me know you disagree please send it via PM as to not take this thread off topic.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

All information provided is based on my personal experience. I gathered information from as many sources as possible, Dendroboard, literature, breeders, etc., and then incorporated what I felt would best create a successful mixed species enclosure. Please do not take this as absolute fact but rather as what has worked for me. I measure success on the health and longevity of the frogs. Some people use breeding as a measurement but I have never been in the hobby to breed my frogs so I cannot speak to that measurement. 

Supplies(items that I personally use):
Zoo Med Eco Earth Compressed Coconut Fiber
Zoo Med Compressed Orchid Bark
PVC Pipe Cut at 1 ½”- 2” pieces
Zip Ties
Egg Crate (the kind for ceiling lighting) 
Landscaping Fabric
Pond Liner (I use this for my water features)
River Rocks
Gravel (Thoroughly Rinsed)
Plants (by preference but make sure they can tolerate high humidity)
-Orchids
-Staghorn Ferns
**These are two that I particularly enjoy
-Tropical Moss (temperate can be used by typically does not do well)
-Bromeliads 

Some General rules:
1. Research:
Do not simply take a yes or no for an answer. Compile as much information as you can and formulate an opinion based on the knowledge you obtain rather then on someone’s emotional opinion. Read books and articles and then pose questions on numerous forums. 

2. Plan your enclosure based on the frogs you plan to keep. Single species tanks can be set up more simply then for a multi species tanks. Things that will need to be taken into account when planning:
1. How many frogs are you planning to keep?
2. What type of frogs are you planning to keep?
3. Depending on type and quantity of frogs what size enclosure would best fit your needs?
4. Temperature requirements
5. Humidity requirements, how you plan on maintaining those requirements
6. Lighting (will depend more on the requirements of the plant life)
7. Soil/substrate, plant life, water features, enclosure décor (logs, rocks, leaf liter)
8. Acquiring Proper foods
***Your enclosure should be completed prior to acquiring any frogs

3. Since most people do not buy adult fogs the sex of the frogs are typically unknown. Some species of frogs have females that are very aggressive. You may end up with multiple females that need to be separated. In addition to your enclosure you should also have at least one, but maybe a few depending on the number of frogs you plan to start out with, quarantine tank in case the frogs need to be separated. However, with proper planning, the aggression in either case can be reduced significantly, if not almost completely, by using several different methods.

Visual Barriers:
These will give the frogs the opportunity to be out of the sight line of another frog. This can be as simple as rotating a coco hut or as complex as build a fallen log display that divides portions of the enclosure. I have used several stag horn ferns that allow for both a visual barrier and a hideout.

Hiding Places:
Offer many places for the frogs to duck into. Frogs sometimes need some alone time as well. This can be accomplished by making caves within a hill structure, the addition of plants like bromeliads or stag horn ferns, rock crops, old hollowed out logs, several coca huts covered in moss, leaf liter …your imagination is the limit!!!!

Feeding Stations:
Your frogs will become accustomed to feeding stations. Having several feeding stations will disperse the frogs throughout the enclosure lessening the tendency for competition over food. Also, several small feeding throughout the day, if possible, is better then one large feeding per day. 

Removing Aggressive Frogs:
In some instances a frog may need to be removed. It is typically best to remove the aggressive frog rather then the submissive frog. Often, after rearranging the enclosure a little and allowing the other frogs some time to establish a place in the setup, the aggressive frog can be reintroduced. On occasion you will find that some frogs simply cannot be kept together and will either need a second enclosure or a new home and/or owner.

4. Purchasing your Frogs:
First, find a couple of different breeders. Then, ask around and find out the reputation of the breeder. It is very important to find a breeder that is known for quality healthy frogs and gives good customer service.

It is best to purchase all your frogs at the same time so they can be introduced to the enclosure at the same time. This will help reduce stress on the animals and allow them to establish niches within the enclosure. This will also help limit any possible cross contamination of disease since all the frogs are coming from the same breeder. 

If possible, and recommended, quarantine your frogs. Have fecal samples tested by a vet that has experience with reptiles and amphibians. When all is cleared then introduce the frogs. Simple quarantine setups can be made using sterlite containers lined with moist paper towels and a coco hut. The paper towels should be changed out daily.
5. Enjoy the hobby. After all, this is only a hobby. If it does not bring you happiness it is not worth doing. Life is short, enjoy it!!!


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Respectfully, Ed has already laid out the considerations in an oft-linked thread in greater detail. This doesn't introduce anything new. 

If there is one point that I like to emphasize for anyone considering a multi-species enclosure, it is being zoogeographically correct. 

Successful husbandry is measured by the natural expression of social behaviors of the species kept, in my not-so-humble opinion.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

flyangler18 said:


> Respectfully, Ed has already laid out the considerations in an oft-linked thread in greater detail. This doesn't introduce anything new.
> 
> If there is one point that I like to emphasize for anyone considering a multi-species enclosure, it is being zoogeographically correct.
> 
> Successful husbandry is measured by the natural expression of social behaviors of the species kept, in my not-so-humble opinion.



I believe you are referencing this thread by Ed:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

Please correct me if I am wrong. Ed has like 4500+ posts so it is hard to search content that he has posted.  This is a very informative thread by Ed!!


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Jellyman said:


> I believe you are referencing this thread by Ed:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


Yes, that is the thread I was referring to.


----------



## fraser2009 (Jan 4, 2009)

make sure to take lots of pics with your build log, cant wait to see this develop be sure to post any agression issues and the like that people refer to.
good luck 
Fraser


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I would not be pushing advice till you've had it set up for a year.

Document away - just do it privately and *then* post your findings. I don't think you can call anything "successful", until you've actually had success with it.

s


----------



## donstr (Jun 21, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> If there is one point that I like to emphasize for anyone considering a multi-species enclosure, it is being zoogeographically correct.


This is an excellent point. It's possible this may help contribute to the harmony. Frogs that would live together in the wild might be exploiting different niches. This also goes along with the idea that animals from different regions might have different gut flora, diseases, and other microbial and not so microbial passengers that don't mix well with each other.

I think *if you really have to mix *you ought to toss out any sort of standards for size of tank per frog and give them as much room as possible. That way they can spread out and not trip over each other day in/day out.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Scott said:


> *I would not be pushing advice till you've had it set up for a year*.
> 
> Document away - just do it privately and *then* post your findings. I don't think you can call anything "successful", until you've actually had success with it.
> 
> s


 

Excellent point.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

donstr said:


> I think *if you really have to mix *you ought to toss out any sort of standards for size of tank per frog and give them as much room as possible. That way they can spread out and not trip over each other day in/day out.


I think this is an excellent point. 5-10 gallons of space per frog might make sense for a community frog with predictable social dynamics. Put two species of frog (even if they're both social frogs) in the same enclosure and (unless there's previous documentation on the way those frogs interact) all bets are off (maybe they'll do great together! Then again maybe they'll beat the crap out of each other). Better to prepare for the worst and hope for the best by giving the frogs a _massive_ amount of space.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott said:


> I would not be pushing advice till you've had it set up for a year.
> 
> Document away - just do it privately and *then* post your findings. I don't think you can call anything "successful", until you've actually had success with it.
> 
> s



I have had my current setup now for approx. 7 years. I have had only one death that occurred within the first few weeks due to an auratus escaping and becoming frog jerky behind a bookcase.

I do have plans on a new enclosure build and have already started a thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37893-starting-new-vivarium.html


Unfortunately the build is on hold because of a production issue with the place that is building the new tank. I may be scrapping this builder and just build the tank myself. I wish I had decided to do the build myself from the beginning.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

fraser2009 said:


> make sure to take lots of pics with your build log, cant wait to see this develop be sure to post any agression issues and the like that people refer to.
> good luck
> Fraser


I am planning on upgrading my current setup that is about 7 years old. Here is a link to the thread of the build:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37893-starting-new-vivarium.html

I am also planning on setting up a continuous live feed web access camera once the enclosure is complete.


----------



## Estrato (Jan 6, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> I have had my current setup now for approx. 7 years. I have had only one death that occurred within the first few weeks due to an auratus escaping and becoming frog jerky behind a bookcase.


Are you referring to the setup you posted pictures of in the "So, you want a reason to not mix species?" thread?


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Estrato,
Please refer any questions you have of me personally to me via PM. I asked that this thread stay on topic in the opening post. Please post anyhtiong constructive that will improve upon the mixed species enclosures. This is not a thread for a debate but for sharing what has worked for those that have tried a mixed enclosure.

Thank You and Happy frogging!!


----------



## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

id like to see some pics of you mixed tank and see what you have done.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

DCreptiles,
Please refer any questions you have of me personally to me via PM. I asked that this thread stay on topic in the opening post. Please post anything constructive that will improve upon the mixed species enclosures. This is not a thread for a debate but for sharing what has worked for those that have tried a mixed enclosure. I would be more then happy to PM you a few photos.

Thank You and Happy frogging!!


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Nice try.......you don't get to dictate how people can respond. 

Let's see some pics.


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Jellyman said:


> DCreptiles,
> Please refer any questions you have of me personally to me via PM. I asked that this thread stay on topic in the opening post. Please post anything constructive that will improve upon the mixed species enclosures. This is not a thread for a debate but for sharing what has worked for those that have tried a mixed enclosure. I would be more then happy to PM you a few photos.
> 
> Thank You and Happy frogging!!


How would sharing pictures of your enclosure be taking this thread off topic?

If you are honestly interested in sharing your experiences and discussing things openly, you can't dictate the conditions of the discourse. I have seen successful (including reproduction in-viv) multi-species enclosures that involved species that share natural ranges in situ, including _Typhlonectes natans_ and _Corallus caninus_ in one enclosure and _Dendrobates tinctorius 'Azureus'_ and _Hyla leucophyllata_ in another.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

flyangler18,
I would be more then happy to send pics via PM to you. Those that are asking are only posting to turn this thread into another debate. I have offered in post #2 what steps I feel will help make a mixed enclosure successful. This post is not to display or promote "my" setup but to help collect information from others that will increase the success of future mixed enclosures. 

I am not dictating what is posted and I am not looking to have a conversation/debate on this matter. I have posted my experience on the matter that have been successful for me and have left it open for others to post what has been successful for them if they wish to.

Thank you.


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Those that are asking are only posting to turn this thread into another debate.


That's a pretty big assumption on your part.

EDIT: If you are going to proselytize about mixing, you have to be prepared for the criticisms. 

Trying to sanitize this thread isn't going to accomplish much.

I'm approaching this thread with an open mind.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I have no idea how long you've been in the hobby.

Just going by past experience (with you - reading your posts) and your signup date to the board - it would've seemed like two years or less.

(oh, nice ding Jellyman - you don't want me dinging you and putting you another 10 in the hole, so please be careful. My response was certainly "on topic".)

s


Jellyman said:


> I am planning on upgrading my current setup that is about 7 years old ...


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

flyangler18,
I have no intention of getting into a discussion/debate in this thread. We have the PM tool that can be utilized if you would like to speak about my personal setup. This thread was created as a place for those that have experience with mixed enclosures to add what they have found to have worked in the circumstances. You eluded to Ed's post so I added it to the thread. It has alot of great information on how to be successful with a mixed enclosure. If you are not intentionally trying to stir things up then you would be challenging Ed on his stance that mixed setups can be successful as well or you would have sent me a PM.

Please do not continue to move this thread off topic.
Thank You


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Thanks for the ding, Bryan. 

All of my comments have been on topic, and I have no dog in this fight. As I have commented frequently in the past, I have seen first-hand 'successful' (multiple generations with breeding) vivs and even mentioned two specifically. If careful consideration to both design and the unique requirements of each species are paid, it can work. I'm not trying to stir anything up, contrary to what you think. 
There is a difference between recognizing that multi-species enclosures can be successful (and I've already defined how I see it) and crusading for mixing. 



> If you are not intentionally trying to stir things up then you would be challenging Ed on his stance that mixed setups can be successful as well or you would have sent me a PM.


That is faulty logic. But it's of no consequence because you'll take from it what you will.


----------



## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

I personally don't devote much time to this particular topic, nor do I have the desire to debate it. But I have to agree that pictures, in this case, are perfectly relevant and only help to support your initial post by giving visual representation to your examples (such as visual barriers, tank size, population density, etc.). It's always helpful to be able to SEE examples of successful mixed tanks in addition to stating the like. Just my 2 cents!

Brent


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

And to think I was actually considering leaving Dendroboard.
To miss all this- What the hell was I thinking?

John


----------



## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

thetattooedone said:


> I personally don't devote much time to this particular topic, nor do I have the desire to debate it. But I have to agree that pictures, in this case, are perfectly relevant and only help to support your initial post by giving visual representation to your examples (such as visual barriers, tank size, population density, etc.). It's always helpful to be able to SEE examples of successful mixed tanks in addition to stating the like. Just my 2 cents!
> 
> Brent


I could not agree more. You reference many things in your post that would be helpful, especially for new members to see (Visual barriers, feeding stations, hiding places) . The pictures are already out there, but as you referenced with Ed having so many posts, I would imagine you have well over 300 posst devoted specifically to mixing, so why not link up the pics? The pictures should only add to your credibility and give people a better idea of what they need to be successful keeping healthy frogs for 7 years. 

As a side note, I normally stay out of these debates but i really take offence at you trying to dictate what exactly goes into this thread. You have turned countless threads into your own personal soap box whenever a new member asks a very simple question, often times one of many questiosn they have. Because you personally feel that every person, solicited or unsolicited, has to receive your compelte discourse on mixing. 

Your views are your views. Fine good for you. But turning a "I'm new, can I keep frog x with y, and how do i build a tank?" into a 10 page thread every time it comes up is getting a little old.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> flyangler18,
> I have no intention of getting into a discussion/debate in this thread. We have the PM tool that can be utilized if you would like to speak about my personal setup. This thread was created as a place for those that have experience with mixed enclosures to add what they have found to have worked in the circumstances. You eluded to Ed's post so I added it to the thread. It has alot of great information on how to be successful with a mixed enclosure. If you are not intentionally trying to stir things up then you would be challenging Ed on his stance that mixed setups can be successful as well or you would have sent me a PM.
> 
> Please do not continue to move this thread off topic.
> Thank You


Exactly what the hell did you think was going to happen when you started this moronic thread?
My only hope is that a mod. will mercifully lock or delete this mess before it really gets out of hand.

Sorry, should I have sent you a PM?

John


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

flyangler18 said:


> Thanks for the ding, Bryan.


Due to my negative rep I do not have the ability to give you a negative ding. At best I could leave a comment with a grey dot that would have no effect on your score. So, someone else must think you are out of line but it was not me.


----------



## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> And to think I was actually considering leaving Dendroboard.
> To miss all this- What the hell was I thinking?
> 
> John



I'm with you man!!!


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Okay kiddies keep it clean or take it to that 'other board' where they allow mud wrestling.

Jellyman with all due respect the questions you were asked don't appear to be out of line or taking the thread off topic. If you don't want to answer them in this thread ignore them but don't ask people to not ask questions.

I don't believe this is a moronic thread (though I do tire of the endless mixing debate). Perhaps an accomodation of different points of view *backed by data* could be of use.

However if data is not or will not be produced then expect that opinion will be the norm.

Since we've already had the DB hobbyhorses of 1) Mixing, 2) Reputation points and the practice of 'dinging', I can only urge the team to shoot for the trifecta and somehow work complaints on vendor feedback into the thread....c'mon gang I'm counting on ya 

Bill


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The blocking option is a wonderful tool. No need to read posts that will irritate me... 

As noted in the oft linked thread, mixing is incorrect as this means the animals will be evenly distributed but if the enclosure is set-up properly then this should not be the case... 
Multspecies are possible but long-term success is the trick that often eludes people, particularly when the person may not fully understand the usages of visual barriers (which are of use in some species and not at all in others..) 

Ed


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

elmoisfive said:


> Okay kiddies keep it clean or take it to that 'other board' where they allow mud wrestling.
> 
> Jellyman with all due respect the questions you were asked don't appear to be out of line or taking the thread off topic. If you don't want to answer them in this thread ignore them but don't ask people to not ask questions.
> 
> ...


Well, speaking of vendor feedback I was wondering..........

Just a little humor (as bad as it was) to break the tension.

John


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This is certainly what I was pointing out.

To get dinged for good advice is just such a farce.

s


elmoisfive said:


> ... Perhaps an accomodation of different points of view *backed by data* could be of use ...


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

thetattooedone said:


> I personally don't devote much time to this particular topic, nor do I have the desire to debate it. But I have to agree that pictures, in this case, are perfectly relevant and only help to support your initial post by giving visual representation to your examples (such as visual barriers, tank size, population density, etc.). It's always helpful to be able to SEE examples of successful mixed tanks in addition to stating the like. Just my 2 cents!
> 
> Brent



I agree with you. I will take some photos either tonight or tomorrow of the visual barriers. My tank is currently 3'L X 2'w x 3'H. I have 18 frogs. And yes, after discussing with several people I have come to admit it is overcrowded and that is the main reason I am going to get a tank that is 6'L x 3"w x 3'h that will have even more vertical areas then the current tank along with the more then doubling of horizontal space. I will also be keeping the current tank and may thin out one of the species when the new tank is set up?? Not 100% on that yet.


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Scott said:


> This is certainly what I was pointing out.
> 
> To get dinged for good advice is just such a farce.
> 
> s


Scott,

Honestly some days I just don't know. Another irony is that while there are many who are quick to protest any deletion/modification of threads for UA violations some of those same people protest when the Mods refuse to censor posts containing unpopular opinions such as this one. In fact I believe we are now accused of condoning mixing and other unethical behaviors 

For the record I personally believe that mixing frogs is not a good idea for reasons I have posted before and have never been given evidence that it benefits the frogs. On the other hand, I refuse to censor posts simply because they contain unpopular opinions or are contrary to my own beliefs.

Mehhhh 

Bill


----------



## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

I am not a scientist. I do know a little bit about effective argument in a debate or in something called apologetics in theology.

It seems to me that a demonstration of success in a multi-species tank or mixed tank does require some verifiable statistical data. Of which, photos would be beneficial. 

Frankly, since it is possible to demonstrate something in a static point of time by a "snapshot," a set of random photos does not, in my opinion illustrate much more than the simple fact that during one photo shoot the objects (or subjects) in the photos were observed to be in a specific relationship of proximity. 

Without being argumentative, perhaps a good demonstration of the success of any viv - no matter what kind, would be the examination by an objective committee who are able to observe the viv periodically, including surprise observation. 

That plus detailed records over time, would be beneficial.

Further, if it is successful, then it can be repeated successfully by others following the same parameters. 

So at a minimum in this thread, I would like to see some pictures over time, some logs of what happened over history. 

And isn't good science open to peer review?

Thanks in advance for it being done right.


----------



## fraser2009 (Jan 4, 2009)

dragonfly makes a good point id like to see a mixing log with people giving advice without it turnig into a pissing contest, there seems to be alot of eu tanks mixed so be nice to see one loged so there is some proof for or against


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> DCreptiles,
> Please refer any questions you have of me personally to me via PM. I asked that this thread stay on topic in the opening post. Please post anything constructive that will improve upon the mixed species enclosures. This is not a thread for a debate but for sharing what has worked for those that have tried a mixed enclosure. I would be more then happy to PM you a few photos.
> 
> Thank You and Happy frogging!!


This topic by it's very nature is subject to much debate.

If *you *insist on bringing it up time and time again I can see your reputation falling further in the hobby.

This has been dealt with ad nauseum and I can see no constructive reason for *yet another* thread on this subject other then to proselytize, boast, and create unnecessary debate and discontent on this forum.

BTW those that volunteer their time to mod this site, must continuously respond to the wave of citations, complaints, thread reporting, ensuing necessary infractions, and the wining of those cited. The same members over and over and over. It is getting very old.


S


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Dragonfly said:


> It seems to me that a demonstration of success in a multi-species tank or mixed tank does require some verifiable statistical data. Of which, photos would be beneficial.
> 
> Frankly, since it is possible to demonstrate something in a static point of time by a "snapshot," a set of random photos does not, in my opinion illustrate much more than the simple fact that during one photo shoot the objects (or subjects) in the photos were observed to be in a specific relationship of proximity.
> 
> ...


What type of information would you want to see logged? 

Anyone that is in the Kansas City area is welcome to drop in anytime. PM me for my address.

I plan on setting up a 24hr live feed web cam on the new tank. That should take care of any photographic requirement and open observation issues.


----------



## fraser2009 (Jan 4, 2009)

sports_doc said:


> This topic by it's very nature is subject to much debate.
> 
> If *you *insist on bringing it up time and time again I can see your reputation falling further in the hobby.
> 
> ...


This thread really should really be deleted and reworded to sound more like test journal following your results, id be intrested in reading it so long as your prepared ,with a spare tank ect ready.im sure there will be others willing to help giving you the best chance of success and give the community a good insight into your problems ,solutions ect


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

fraser2009 said:


> dragonfly makes a good point id like to see a mixing log with people giving advice without it turnig into a pissing contest, there seems to be alot of eu tanks mixed so be nice to see one loged so there is some proof for or against


Just to add to what is mentioned about the european hobby. Yes they do tend to mix often, but they also do so responsibly more often then not. While many in the states would like to throw tincs, leucs and auratus together, the euros tend to mix tincs and imitators and so forth and typically in well thought out enclosures. The way that they mix is much more conducive to a successfull viv and also is not at risk of producing the dreaded hybrids.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When I started setting up multispecies enclosures at work, I did crib at least some of my information from European ideals... and over time, I think I've moved more in that direction than away from it. 

When looking at multispecies enclosures it is way easier to set up and maintain animals with unrelated behaviors... like for example Agalychnis callidryas and adult Corallus caninus or a large Dendrobates and Dendropsophus ebraccatus... This makes it much easier as the animals involved may not even recognize that the other animals are anything other than mobile cage furniture. 

Ed


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Ed said:


> When I started setting up multispecies enclosures at work, I did crib at least some of my information from European ideals... and over time, I think I've moved more in that direction than away from it.
> 
> When looking at multispecies enclosures it is way easier to set up and maintain animals with unrelated behaviors... like for example Agalychnis callidryas and adult Corallus caninus or a large Dendrobates and Dendropsophus ebraccatus... This makes it much easier as the animals involved may not even recognize that the other animals are anything other than mobile cage furniture.
> 
> Ed


Hi Ed,
Are there any websites that you would recommend researching that highlight the European setups?


----------



## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

fraser2009 said:


> dragonfly makes a good point id like to see a mixing log with people giving advice without it turnig into a pissing contest, there seems to be alot of eu tanks mixed so be nice to see one loged so there is some proof for or against


I remember reading this years ago. I think they are in the Netherlands. This is a journal of a 20m squared greenhouse with several species of dart frogs, turtles, I want to say a lizard also. They documented it over 2004-2005. There were some deaths, some turtles lost then found, etc. I will have to reread it myself. I was an interesting read. 
Frog greenhouse

Dave


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Thus far, I haven't been interested in the least to attempt a mixed species enclosure involving Dendrobatids. Now that I have acquired a gravid female Pygmy chameleon with a good chance of the eggs hatching in-viv, I may consider planning a large viv for both mantellas and the chams. Much research must be done first.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott said:


> I have no idea how long you've been in the hobby.
> 
> Just going by past experience (with you - reading your posts) and your signup date to the board - it would've seemed like two years or less.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry Scott but it was not me that dinged you. I have a negative rep and even if I left a comment for you it would only show up as a grey dot and have xero impact on your rep score. Please ask the MOD's, they have my permission to tell you if I left you any feedback on your post.

I honestly did not take your post as being mean or off topic. I was only giving you the background info I thought you were asking for.

Sorry for this misunderstanding.
Bryan


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> When looking at multispecies enclosures it is way easier to set up and maintain animals with unrelated behaviors... like for example Agalychnis callidryas and adult Corallus caninus or a large Dendrobates and Dendropsophus ebraccatus... *This makes it much easier as the animals involved may not even recognize that the other animals are anything other than mobile cage furniture.*


Great point, Ed!


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I personally feel mixed species tanks for someone that just wants a "fishtank" to look at is fine, but size is critical. Keeping a couple differentiated species together in a large enclosure (say 125 gals or so) i feel is better than keeping the 2 in 20 gallon tanks. That being said 18 frogs in a 3' x 2' tank be they the same species or different species is terribly overcrowding them, I would consider that a very unhealthy environment. I assume this tank is drained and you mist very heavily daily to eliminate the waste of so many frogs....what you have reminds me of an African Cichlid set up.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> flyangler18,
> I have no intention of getting into a discussion/debate in this thread. We have the PM tool that can be utilized if you would like to speak about my personal setup. This thread was created as a place for those that have experience with mixed enclosures to add what they have found to have worked in the circumstances. You eluded to Ed's post so I added it to the thread. It has alot of great information on how to be successful with a mixed enclosure. If you are not intentionally trying to stir things up then you would be challenging Ed on his stance that mixed setups can be successful as well or you would have sent me a PM.
> 
> Please do not continue to move this thread off topic.
> Thank You



Jellyman,

I wouldn't get too worked up over people asking questions about you or your set up. When proposing something that is contrary to the norm you should automatically expect some resistance. You should also expect the questions that have been asked, not because of a direct attack on your information (not yet anyway), but for your credibility. Seems like people would probably want to know "is this information I can trust?" To help determine whether or not one can trust the information it's nice to know how long you've been in the hobby (I believe ten years, yes?), and how long you've had a mixed enclosure (I believe seven years, yes?). Information about your tank is also helpful because my definition of a "successful" mixed tank may be different from yours. We've already had a discussion on "another forum" regarding this issue, but to overview I believe your definition of a successful tank is one that does not cause your frogs to die. I might consider a successful tank one in which my animals breed. I might also consider a successful mixed tank one in which frogs will breed, but only within that frog's own morph (no cross species/cross morph breeding). If this is the case I think it's reasonable to know whether or not your tank has produced any eggs (I believe the answer is no, right?) or if it has produced eggs if any of them have been cross morphs or hybrids (no eggs, no hybrids, right?).

I don't think any of the questions asked so far have been out of line or unreasonable. In fact, provided that your answers to those questions are satisfactory it may go to _helping_ your case rather than being a detriment to it.

Just some thoughts.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

markpulawski said:


> I personally feel mixed species tanks for someone that just wants a "fishtank" to look at is fine, but size is critical. Keeping a couple differentiated species together in a large enclosure (say 125 gals or so) i feel is better than keeping the 2 in 20 gallon tanks. That being said 18 frogs in a 3' x 2' tank be they the same species or different species is terribly overcrowding them, I would consider that a very unhealthy environment. I assume this tank is drained and you mist very heavily daily to eliminate the waste of so many frogs....what you have reminds me of an African Cichlid set up.


Yes the tank is auto misted twice a day and has an external drain. It is agreed that the number of frogs is well beyond pushing the limit. When I set the tank up I diod not have the resources lke this website to ask questions so I did the best I could with the knowledge I could find. Many years later, I am in the process of increasing their space and pondering whetehr or not to pull one of the species out all together.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Jellyman,
> 
> I wouldn't get too worked up over people asking questions about you or your set up. When proposing something that is contrary to the norm you should automatically expect some resistance. You should also expect the questions that have been asked, not because of a direct attack on your information (not yet anyway), but for your credibility. Seems like people would probably want to know "is this information I can trust?" To help determine whether or not one can trust the information it's nice to know how long you've been in the hobby (I believe ten years, yes?), and how long you've had a mixed enclosure (I believe seven years, yes?). Information about your tank is also helpful because my definition of a "successful" mixed tank may be different from yours. We've already had a discussion on "another forum" regarding this issue, but to overview I believe your definition of a successful tank is one that does not cause your frogs to die. I might consider a successful tank one in which my animals breed. I might also consider a successful mixed tank one in which frogs will breed, but only within that frog's own morph (no cross species/cross morph breeding). If this is the case I think it's reasonable to know whether or not your tank has produced any eggs (I believe the answer is no, right?) or if it has produced eggs if any of them have been cross morphs or hybrids (no eggs, no hybrids, right?).
> 
> ...


I am not getting worked up I just do not want to see this thread stray off topic as so many often do. I am willing to answer any question via PM per MOD's request. 

I can clarify a few of your questions.

Yes, I have had frogs for 10 years and my mixed setup has been running for 7 years.

Yes, my definition is that the frogs live a healthy life and I have not attempted to breed them so I have not used that as a measuring stick.

Yes, I have recently(over the last few months) spotted approx. 10 eggs within the enclosure. No, I have not tried to remove or raise them. There have probably been many more in the past but I was never looking at the tank with a flashlight like I have recently started doing. The eggs really have no chance of survival unless they would be removed from the tank due to the number of frogs within the enclosure.

I agree that the questions are not out of line or unreasonable. I also do not think it is unreasonable to ask that the conversation be done via PM. I would love to discuss this on the forum but it rarely stays friendly or civil for certain individuals. Statement such as "I believe your definition of a successful tank is one that does not cause your frogs to die." is on the line and is starting to cross the line because we both know that is not my definition.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Statement such as "I believe your definition of a successful tank is one that does not cause your frogs to die." is on the line and is starting to cross the line because we both know that is not my definition.


I do apologize for the way that particular phrase came out. It's not quite what I meant. I was anxious to get out on the road and pick up my date tonight, guess I didn't think through every sentence to make sure it was perfectly phrased. Of course I expect your definition to include your frogs being fat and healthy (speaking of which, I'm interested in finding out the results of your fecals from Dr. Frye, you're welcome to PM me those if you'd rather not disclose them openly, not that I _expect_ something to turn up, I'm just interested).

I say (and this is just my personal opinion), why not answer the questions publically? Yes, people here rarely end up being diplomatic (you may end up being down right attacked), but who cares? Let them deal with their baggage in whatever way they need to; you go ahead and do what you feel you need to in order to be helpful to those interested in creating a mixed tank. It may mean answering questions, so do it. If you're honestly interested in conducting a conversation about this topic on the board then do that too. And if someone _does_ become unfriendly because of it, ignore them. I have a feeling if you show that you're only going to respond to those posts that will contribute to an educated discussion most of your dissenters will get bored. On the other hand, I think retaliation tends to feed the fire, it encourages people to continue to be rude. Sticks and stones, man, sticks and stones.


----------



## fraser2009 (Jan 4, 2009)

markpulawski said:


> I personally feel mixed species tanks for someone that just wants a "fishtank" to look at is fine, but size is critical. Keeping a couple differentiated species together in a large enclosure (say 125 gals or so) i feel is better than keeping the 2 in 20 gallon tanks. That being said 18 frogs in a 3' x 2' tank be they the same species or different species is terribly overcrowding them, I would consider that a very unhealthy environment. I assume this tank is drained and you mist very heavily daily to eliminate the waste of so many frogs....what you have reminds me of an African Cichlid set up.


thats true which is why its better we encourage healthy debate and help anyone who is going to set up a mixed tank so we can establish a min tank size for a mixed group and what ratios and species give the best chance of success.id say its a pretty safe bet to say that mixing happens alot more than we see here due to pet shops ect. when i was a member of a website that specialises in monster fish we had the same problem where pet shops would sell fish under the assurance that the fish could get along or that a fish that can grow to 5 feet in the wild would live in a tank half that length, as it would grow to the size of the tank. it was only through people putting info out that was backed up with experiments and success and problems could that problem be reduced. back to frogs not only could we give people starting a better chance of success and also discourage new people as they can see what sort of commitment they would need and be more likely to realise that its not in there best interests or the frogs or the new keeper to mix.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> I agree with you. I will take some photos either tonight or tomorrow of the visual barriers. My tank is currently 3'L X 2'w x 3'H. I have 18 frogs. And yes, after discussing with several people I have come to admit it is overcrowded and that is the main reason I am going to get a tank that is 6'L x 3"w x 3'h that will have even more vertical areas then the current tank along with the more then doubling of horizontal space. I will also be keeping the current tank and may thin out one of the species when the new tank is set up?? Not 100% on that yet.


I know this thread is about "Setting up a Successful mixing Enclosure" and I'm not trying to get off topic!

I have to ask the question. Why is it so appealing to have a mixed viv? It seems more hassle that it's worth. You have to give more room per species. Worry about seperating them. Having tanks on hand in case they have to be seperated.

I don't see a big deal if you wanted to have terresstrial and aboreal although I wouldn't do it. I don't have the experience.

You want to get a 6' x 3' x 3'h. You could do 12 - 18" cubes for that. Or 8 - 18" x 24" or a ton of 10 gallon verts. They all could be side by side.

Again. I'm curious. Why bother? What's the attraction?

I think this question needs to be addressed for people that read this thread in the future. 

Peace. Just a simple question. I do not want to start a debate. What makes it appealing to you Bryan/Jellyman


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Mark,

Expanding on your comments a little.. 




markpulawski said:


> That being said 18 frogs in a 3' x 2' tank be they the same species or different species is terribly overcrowding them, I would consider that a very unhealthy environment. .


This has a lot to do with the species involved as well as the set-up of the enclosure. For example, in thier natal habitat, it is possible to observe large aggregations of frogs (particularly hylids). For one example, I have have observed green treefrogs perched on windows near lights after feeding on the insects in very high densities (I think I counted 35 on one window ledge). Of course this doesn't mean that the frogs can't move away from the site but if the conditions are conducive and the food supply continues then they are not likely to move on..... Outside of competition for calling perches, MOST hylids are not territorial allowing for greater densities provided that the proper niches and nutrient cycling can accomedate the frogs (and your willing to clean up after them...)
In additon, many hylids form high density aggregates when calling.. again sufficient nutrient cycling is required. 

When dealing with ranids or dendrobatids that are territorial, these species can still occur in high densities but differnet behavioral dynamics need to be taken into account (which I am not going to get into here..) . I have said it before and I'll say it again, we are missing some understanding of the behavior of the frogs given that we cannot replicate in territorial species the high density seen in some optimal habitats (see the picture in Lotters et al of the massive group of O. pumilio). 





markpulawski said:


> I assume this tank is drained and you mist very heavily daily to eliminate the waste of so many frogs....what you have reminds me of an African Cichlid set up.


And this is the problem, the goal should be something closer to a reef... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> I have to ask the question. Why is it so appealing to have a mixed viv? It seems more hassle that it's worth. You have to give more room per species. Worry about seperating them. Having tanks on hand in case they have to be seperated.
> 
> I don't see a big deal if you wanted to have terresstrial and aboreal although I wouldn't do it. I don't have the experience.
> 
> ...


If the enclosure is set up properly then you can have something closer to a reef enviroment as opposed to a monospecies enclosure but as with the reef, it needs to be habitat and zoogeographically correct for optimal function. 

Ed


----------



## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> DCreptiles,
> Please refer any questions you have of me personally to me via PM. I asked that this thread stay on topic in the opening post. Please post anything constructive that will improve upon the mixed species enclosures. This is not a thread for a debate but for sharing what has worked for those that have tried a mixed enclosure. I would be more then happy to PM you a few photos.
> 
> Thank You and Happy frogging!!


well i honestly didnt think that me asking for a few photo's of what your talking about to better understand the point your trying to get across to everyone. im not here to bash you or personally attack you.. i think that it would be a great thing if you posted some photos to show everyone in detail what your trying to say. by no means am i trying to start or get involved into a debate about mixed species tanks only because it does not effect my collection. im just trying to better understand and be opend minded. you answering questions only via pm wont keep this thread clean or keep anyone from speaking their mind about the topic. all you can really do is ask respectfully to not get into a heated debate about it. but asking people to not voice an opinion is like asking them not to breathe.
-Derek


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

frogfreak said:


> I know this thread is about "Setting up a Successful mixing Enclosure" and I'm not trying to get off topic!
> 
> I have to ask the question. Why is it so appealing to have a mixed viv? It seems more hassle that it's worth. You have to give more room per species. Worry about seperating them. Having tanks on hand in case they have to be seperated.
> 
> ...


I think this is a great question because it ultimately is what has new hobbiest asking the mixing question in the first place.

For me personally, I prefer one larger setup over several smaller set ups. I think one larger setup can be made to look much more eye appealing and impressive then a smaller setup. That is why I chose the current set up I have to be 3' x 2' x 3'H. At the time that was the space I had available. Now, I recently took down my 6' x 3' x 2H' reef tank so I could get a new frog enclosure that will be 6' x 3' x 3'h. 

From the information I have been reading, a well thought out tank does not need to be huge to house a large number of frogs or a mixed species of frogs. A tank twice the size of the one I am planning could be put together poorly with little planning and not be adequate to hold half the frogs that I plan on housing. I think alot of it has to do with the design of the enclosure more then it does with the size of the enclosure??


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I do apologize for the way that particular phrase came out. It's not quite what I meant. I was anxious to get out on the road and pick up my date tonight, guess I didn't think through every sentence to make sure it was perfectly phrased. Of course I expect your definition to include your frogs being fat and healthy (speaking of which, I'm interested in finding out the results of your fecals from Dr. Frye, you're welcome to PM me those if you'd rather not disclose them openly, not that I _expect_ something to turn up, I'm just interested).
> 
> I say (and this is just my personal opinion), why not answer the questions publically? Yes, people here rarely end up being diplomatic (you may end up being down right attacked), but who cares? Let them deal with their baggage in whatever way they need to; you go ahead and do what you feel you need to in order to be helpful to those interested in creating a mixed tank. It may mean answering questions, so do it. If you're honestly interested in conducting a conversation about this topic on the board then do that too. And if someone _does_ become unfriendly because of it, ignore them. I have a feeling if you show that you're only going to respond to those posts that will contribute to an educated discussion most of your dissenters will get bored. On the other hand, I think retaliation tends to feed the fire, it encourages people to continue to be rude. Sticks and stones, man, sticks and stones.


No problem. We have had many discussion so I knew what you meant. Unfortunately others do not and it is just that easy for someone to read into things and get upset and then you know where that goes.  Just another reason for using the PM function to have side converstaions on the topic. 

Unfortunately I have not sent the fecals to Dr. Frye. My Dad found out last Tuesday he had prostate cancer so last week was not a good week. I'll eventually get to it but that is not at the top of my priority list at the moment.


----------



## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> No problem. We have had many discussion so I knew what you meant. Unfortunately others do not and it is just that easy for someone to read into things and get upset and then you know where that goes.  Just another reason for using the PM function to have side converstaions on the topic.
> 
> Unfortunately I have not sent the fecals to Dr. Frye. My Dad found out last Tuesday he had prostate cancer so last week was not a good week. I'll eventually get to it but that is not at the top of my priority list at the moment.


 

No Offense, but if you have time to argue and bicker on the internet, you have time to get the fecals done.

Instead of arguing about how great mixing is, you should be taking care of your frogs. 

Again, I am not wanting to attack or argue, I just feel it needed to be said. I am also VERY sorry to hear about your father.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Ed said:


> If the enclosure is set up properly then you can have something closer to a reef enviroment as opposed to a monospecies enclosure but as with the reef, it needs to be habitat and zoogeographically correct for optimal function.
> 
> Ed


Hi

It would be a fish tank for frogs. That would be nice. How many people actually have the information, education or talent to pull it off? It certainly would require a pile of research and trial and error. This is not my field so I can't see anywhere in the future where I would attempt it. I'm a hobbyist and allways will be. We love our frogs but have a lot of other interests as well. Laura and I enjoy the frogs for what they are and that's good enough for us.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> Hi
> 
> It would be a fish tank for frogs. That would be nice. How many people actually have the information, education or talent to pull it off? It certainly would require a pile of research and trial and error. This is not my field so I can't see anywhere in the future where I would attempt it. I'm a hobbyist and allways will be. We love our frogs but have a lot of other interests as well. Laura and I enjoy the frogs for what they are and that's good enough for us.


Hi Glen,

They are already fishtanks for frogs but are single species tanks.... and we really can't even call them biotypes as they often contain plants from multiple continents.. 

Just to make clear, there isn't anything wrong with monospecies enclosures and those are generally the easiest to keep. 

Ed


----------



## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

First, I am sorry about your father. 

I haven't answered what I would like to see in a log. Pretty much this is what I think would be a good set of criteria.

Age of frogs when introduced - weights if you are able to weigh would be a very scientifc measure, but certainly not so they had handling that was unneeded.

Length observable would be good. If you have froglets you introduce, how do they compare in growth to other frogs of their species & morph in growth would be nice to know. Do any of them fail to reach normal adult siz is a good question.

The obvious would also include the build of the viv. Sterilization of what is put in the tank.

Good heath records. so fecals during the life of the viv would be good basics. Of course, you should have records of who you got the frogs from would be good. So would a record of the pre-viv fecals, type & length of qt.

Behavior of frogs when initially introduced. Observations of who sleeps where & with whom would be nice information

Food used - frequency of feeding - type of feeding also would be nice - do you have them forage? Multiple feeding locations? Did you need to use any feeding stations during introduction?

Temps - humidity. Lights - variation of photo periods, misting 

As I recall from an earlier thread you do change plants around for personal enjoyment. Anything added to a viv should be documented as well as anything pulled.

Observations of maturing frogs, sexing would be nice. 

In one of the eariler threads, I recall a mention that you had found some jelly masses, in that thread you hadn't seemed sure if you had eggs.

Since you haven't observed any new frogs in the viv, (that you have mentioned) and you haven't set these up for breeding, it would still be important to support why the eggs you find are not pulled so you can cull. 

In are larger viv, the possiblity that frogs will breed or try is certainly likely. So, I think it would be important to document how you deal with the factors around breeding since you have no means to prevent pairing which would cause hybrids. 

The possiblity of eggs getting to tadpole state isn't impossible. If the is a water feature, there is then always the chance the some tads will make it to froglet. Regardless of you intent.

I am sure I can think of other factors which should be documented. For demonstration, I think a longevity study with daily documentation would be good. Including not just the positives you want to show but any and all difficulties.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

JoshK said:


> No Offense, but if you have time to argue and bicker on the internet, you have time to get the fecals done.
> 
> Instead of arguing about how great mixing is, you should be taking care of your frogs.
> 
> Again, I am not wanting to attack or argue, I just feel it needed to be said. I am also VERY sorry to hear about your father.


No offense taken.

In this situation, my frogs have already been together for seven years. There have been no deaths and none of the frogs are exhibiting any illness and all are of good weight with healthy appetites. This request came about from Richard Frye on a different forum not out of any concern I have with my own frogs. I do not recommend putting frogs together unless you can get them tested prior to introduction. When I initially setup this tank I did not have the knowledge I have now, otherwise, I would have had fecals conducted 7 years ago.

Noone is bickering or arguing here. Those that are responding have been doing so in a very friendly matter. The time I use when posting is during down time at work. I do not take personal time(typically) to post on forums. Thank you for your concern for both my frogs and my Dad.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Dragonfly said:


> First, I am sorry about your father.
> 
> I haven't answered what I would like to see in a log. Pretty much this is what I think would be a good set of criteria.
> 
> ...


That is a great list to get started on. Obviously I cannot get a full history going back 7 years but I can at least get as much detail as I can remember. 

Age of frogs when introduced:
All were froglets 3-5 months old. I do not handle my frogs so weights have never been measured.

Normal Adult Size Age:
As far as I know, all frogs are of proper size. No other frogs have been added to the setup.

Health Records:
I have never had any medical checks done on the frogs. I have been lucky that all the frogs arrived healthy and have remained healthy. The frogs were purchased from: 5 Captive bred Panamanian D. Auratus from Saurian enterprises and 2 Leucs/5 D Auratus(metallic green) from Vanishing Jewel, my 4 tincs came from a private breeder but I cannot remember his/her name but it was within a week of the other dates listed 

Behavior:
When introduced the frogs were all over the enclosure. There has never been any overly aggressive frog in the group. I assume this is due to the frogs age, number of frogs within the take, and a bit of luck. I've never attempted to sex them but I can try to photograph each one for help with identification. Currently, the Tincs and Azureus sleep together in the staghorn ferns, The Leucs tend to sleep in various places throughout the enclosure, the metallic auratus like to sleep mostly in the orchid, and the other auratus have taken a liking to the Tiki Head.

Feeding:
I setup two feeding stations at the beginning but they always seemed to gather at the one station. Currently, I feed mostly a diet of fruit flies with some small 1/8"-1/4" crickets. I would estimate 200-300 flies/15-20 crickets per day(this is just a guess since i have never counted the flies, I just eyeball the mass of flies). I usually feed once a day, occassionally twice a day at no specific time. I dust all feedings. Feeding items are scattered across the front of the enclosure. This allows me to inspect the frogs much easier because they all come out to eat.

Changing Plants:
I have not pulled anything out for some time. I have added a few hanging plants on cork bark from springvalley. Typically when I add a new plant it is rinsed thourougly especially the soil if I am having to keep the soil. Probably not the best practice but not sure what else I can do with live plants?? If I add logs or rocks or such they are either cooked or nuked.

Breeding:
Yes, I have recently confirmed eggs. In the past I have never looked for eggs so I have nothing to document piror to the last 3-4 months. Although it is not impossible, it is highly unlikely for an egg to survive in the current setup. With the vast number of frogs, the eggs are surely to be eaten or jumped on. I have never had an egg reach tadpole stage to the best of my knowledge in the current setup. In the new setup i will cull the eggs if necessary. I have no intention of raising offspring.

I'm sure I probably missed something or was not clear on something but not bad for a quick on the fly response. 
Bryan


----------



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> My Dad found out last Tuesday he had prostate cancer so last week was not a good week.
> 
> 
> > Sorry to hear that. I hope he recovers. PM me if you're interested in some natural foods/remedies for cancer. My mom died of ovarian cancer---I was 12 at the time.
> ...


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> (speaking of which, I'm interested in finding out the results of your fecals from Dr. Frye, you're welcome to PM me those if you'd rather not disclose them openly, not that I _expect_ something to turn up, I'm just interested).


I was finally able to get the fecals sent to Dr Frye. He tested them and returned a clean bill of health, no parasites found.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> I was finally able to get the fecals sent to Dr Frye. He tested them and returned a clean bill of health, no parasites found.


w00t w00t! Glad to hear that all your frogs are healthy


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> w00t w00t! Glad to hear that all your frogs are healthy


Thanks. I am glad to hear it as well. I just happened to get lucky that when they were all originally purchased they were all in good health!!


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Keep in mind that a single clean fecal doesn't count for parasite-free frogs. Established adult frogs that have been in their enclosure for years may not be shedding parasite eggs, they may just have been living with them for so long that that they have been normalized, and only become a problem or evident in a situation of stress or malnourishment.


----------



## DizzyD (Sep 19, 2006)

I'm sure I'll get nailed for this one, sorry mods for wasting your time... But man do I want the time back that I spent reading this one. 
now i almost wish i didn't post. But I'm a glutton for punishment....


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Dane said:


> Keep in mind that a single clean fecal doesn't count for parasite-free frogs. Established adult frogs that have been in their enclosure for years may not be shedding parasite eggs, they may just have been living with them for so long that that they have been normalized, and only become a problem or evident in a situation of stress or malnourishment.


Actually in this case the fecal test was done on a group of 18 frogs that live in the same enclosure. All 18 frogs would share the same parasites. There were 8 fecals tested probably from 5-8 different frogs. The probability that all of the frogs from which the fecals were taken were not sheding worms is highly unlikely.

If this was done on one frog then multiple tests would be required to rule out the possibility that at one praticlar time the frog was not sheding parasites.


----------



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Ed said:


> ...and we really can't even call them biotypes as they often contain plants from multiple continents...


I don't want to sidetrack this discussion, but Ed hit on a pet peeve of mine (and I simply cannot allow him to disseminate such erroneous information)...

*biotype:* a group of organisms having the same or nearly the same genotype.

*biotope:* a well-defined area that is uniform in environmental conditions and in its distribution of animal and plant life.

Alright, carry on...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sorry Ron,

Was typing in a hurry.. not an excuse for me to make.. 

Ed


----------

