# Alternatives to Exo Terra



## Dartymcfly (Mar 10, 2020)

Is there an alternative to Exo Terra or Zoo Med that build frog specific enclosures that will keep flies in?

I am starting with a 20 gallon high, but curious if there is an alternative I should look for in the future when it is time to upgrade.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

InSitu terrariums are what Exo-Terra could’ve been if they were designed by a frogger. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

FWIW, neither ExoTerra nor Zoo Med enclosures are 'frog specific' -- they are for herps generally, which turns out to entail that they aren't perfect for any animal. Many people find them adequate for darts; they are awful for, say, almost all snakes.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

Other than insitu, the only alternative is to buy a kit to convert aquarium into a vertical vivarium. Frog cube and neherp are the two I know that sell them but neither is right now due to pandemic issues.


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

Dartymcfly said:


> Is there an alternative to Exo Terra or Zoo Med that build frog specific enclosures that will keep flies in?
> 
> I am starting with a 20 gallon high, but curious if there is an alternative I should look for in the future when it is time to upgrade.


Try customglassterrariums.com


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

hansgruber7 said:


> Try customglassterrariums.com


And then read all the online reviews for them (AKA Protean Terrarium Design) on BBB, ripoffreport, etc.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I believe members of this board have had issues with this company in the past. Please see this link:

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/community-messages/65413-protean.html

And welcome to the board, Hans! Probably no way you could know the history with this company. Thanks for sharing the link and please continue to participate on the board 

Mark


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Well played, John. Well played.


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## Apoplast (Mar 17, 2020)

What?! Was about to buy from them. Well... That changes some plans. Just in time, too. Thanks!

Back to researching where I can get a Euro-type sliding front tank made and drilled.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

atasuki makes sliding door terrariums. They're not perfect, nowhere near as slick looking as the insitu ones, but I've retrofitted an atasuki to be as fly proof as possible and I think it will work quite nicely. I'm still in the build process.


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## Apoplast (Mar 17, 2020)

Well, this has done two things. 1) It has taken the wind out of my sails on this project. Probably for the day, but it feels like going back to an earlier stage when I thought I had this aspect figured out. 2) The input of from the experienced members here is invaluable! I figured I could handle "buy tank" from my checklist on my own. Guess not. Also a bit deflating. 

I want those "Euro-style" tanks even if I have to get a glass shop to make a custom one for me here in town. Or at least cut the glass, and then I'll assemble. I've put together glass aquaria, how much harder could this be? (Famous last words.)


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Apoplast said:


> Well, this has done two things. 1) It has taken the wind out of my sails on this project. Probably for the day, but it feels like going back to an earlier stage when I thought I had this aspect figured out. 2) The input of from the experienced members here is invaluable! I figured I could handle "buy tank" from my checklist on my own. Guess not. Also a bit deflating.
> 
> 
> 
> I want those "Euro-style" tanks even if I have to get a glass shop to make a custom one for me here in town. Or at least cut the glass, and then I'll assemble. I've put together glass aquaria, how much harder could this be? (Famous last words.)


Here's a great thread on how to make a euro style tank

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...9&share_fid=4915&share_type=t&link_source=app


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:


> And then read all the online reviews for them (AKA Protean Terrarium Design) on BBB, ripoffreport, etc.



Jason still owes me about $500. 
I haven’t forgotten. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

And here is a video on how to make one.

https://youtu.be/ZWnEkutb4Cc

Having looked into the cost of the glass, you are probably looking at around 150$ for just the cut glass. This assumes 1/4" annealed and that you are not paying for shipping. The cost of my insitu with shipping was just under 300 dollars. Plants have run me around 80 dollars (this is with buying about 70% of them for cheap at lowes. I bought the components for substrate and ended up with more than I need. I spent around 100$ on just substrate. You could get by with less, probably a minimum of 30 dollars though for a 18x18 enclosure. Then you will need a light. This will likely run you around 100 dollars. And of course frogs. Even if you buy frogs that only cost say 30 dollars each you will still need overnight shipping which can run 50 dollars just by itself. There will be other expenses, fruit flies, culture media, spring tails, isopods, supplements, etc etc. Assuming you go cheap and buy your glass to make your vivarium yourself it will still run you about 500 dollars to go from zero to froggy. If there are ways to skimp without happening to have a friend already with frogs give you a bunch of stuff, I don't know it.

Anyway, it's not a cheap hobby to jump into. Just cheap to maintain.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

minorhero said:


> And here is a video on how to make one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To the original poster, this discussion seems to have gone off topic, sorry

There are ways to do it less expensively: used tanks, fluorescent lights, less fancy plants, etc.

I'm working on my latest build , it's 40x18x18". I found the tank used for $100, I bought a bulk package of leca ($25), soil cost me about $25 to make (3" deep), I actually am using a nice light for this tank, it cost me $80. Total $230 plus plants, frogs and background (I made my cork mosaic background for about $60). 

While there are still other costs coming (plants, wood, frogs, glass top) there are ways to do things a bit cheaper. But I'll agree that getting a tank setup is pricy, and then quite inexpensive to maintain.


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> And then read all the online reviews for them (AKA Protean Terrarium Design) on BBB, ripoffreport, etc.


Good to know. I only have an Exo terra but I was planning on ordering my next one from them. I saw that Troy Goldberg from youtube said he used to order from them before he started making his own and it looked pretty good from the website. But if you all have really had such bad experiences, maybe I won't. Thanks,


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## Drthsideous (Oct 14, 2019)

Troy Goldberg has a good video on his YouTube channel that shows how to make the euro style viv's. Also, Facebook market place and craigslist can be good to find cheap used Exo's. Also the NiCrew aquarium lights on Amazon are cheap and do really well for plant growth.


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## Live.Breathe.Adapt (Oct 29, 2016)

Socratic Monologue said:


> FWIW, neither ExoTerra nor Zoo Med enclosures are 'frog specific' -- they are for herps generally, which turns out to entail that they aren't perfect for any animal. Many people find them adequate for darts; they are awful for, say, almost all snakes.


I agree regarding not frog friendly but I do have two exo terra's for my ball pythons and LOVE them. Curious why snake owners don't like them? They're also good for Geckos but CRICKETS WILL ESCAPE (if not feeding the powder mix) so I can only imagine the flies escaping like crazy!!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Live.Breathe.Adapt said:


> I agree regarding not frog friendly but I do have two exo terra's for my ball pythons and LOVE them. Curious why snake owners don't like them? They're also good for Geckos but CRICKETS WILL ESCAPE (if not feeding the powder mix) so I can only imagine the flies escaping like crazy!!


It isn't that owners don't like them -- the problem is that they don't accommodate the needs of animals very well (yes, they are good for arboreal geckos though). I suspect you've never had a PVC enclosure or a rack system.

Specifically:

1) They don't hold heat. Many snakes (non-temperate species) and terrestrial geckos are best kept at above room temp on the cool side, which isn't simple to achieve in a glass viv with an open top. Sure, you can reduce ventilation, but glass conducts much more than PVC, or plastic tubs in a PVC rack. Nor can this be overcome using a RHP instead of belly heat, since mounting an RHP in an ExoTerra would be difficult at best (though I've not tried it). Nor is an overhead heat lamp a good option, since humidity control will be very challenging (many of us live in humidity-compromised climates). 

2) Most herps do far, far better in an opaque enclosure. The glass construction of Exos is a liability here, too; ideally, the sides need to be blacked out for animals to feel secure, which makes it more sensible to start with an opaque-sided enclosure. Dart keepers can and do use plants and hardscaping to overcome this.

3) The litter dam is too high. Terrestrial snakes and geckos do well in a 12" tall viv, but the doors aren't tall enough on a 12" high Exo to do maintenance, etc. The door opening on a 12" Exo is 6.5" and has sharp plastic edges; on a 12" high Animal Plastics enclosure it is over 8" and rounded off. That inch and a half makes a huge difference when trying to wrestle a snake out.

4) Screen tops are a bad design element for many snakes. Some will never have an issue, but those that do (active animals that test their enclosures) will end up with a trip to the vet. One vet visit with a culture swab and antibiotics pays for an appropriate enclosure.

I breed over a hundred snakes and terrestrial geckos a year, and nearly every buyer (only one exception I can recall, but this was an enclosure issue too) I've ever heard from with problems with acclimation/feeding housed the animal in an Exo Terra.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I have some guys in exo terras, I really like the access, and everyone is geared workably. But...

I really hate the tops. The flimsy placement dictating tops.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> It isn't that owners don't like them -- the problem is that they don't accommodate the needs of animals very well (yes, they are good for arboreal geckos though).


The biggest, tallest ones are quite good for smaller, sit & wait, arboreal snakes. Particularly ones that appreciate a night-time temp drop, and a winter cooldown. All the characteristics you listed as bugs, turn into features.
_
If you don't match the tool to the job, you're always going to have problems..._

@OP - I recommend you *just build your own*. 

Even if you break it when you're almost done, if you start over and don't break the second one, you'll have spent about the same amount of money as if you'd gone full-retail. 
If you don't break the first one, you'll have a half-price hull. 
Either way (but more so if you build two!) you'll have developed a valuable, gratifying skill. 
And you'll have the viv you (thought you) wanted. 
And you'll be able - and in a year or so, ready - to build the viv you really wanted. Ha ha. But really.

The time spent building your own would be an investment. Not a waste. Both opportunities exist in most situations. There's a difference though, and knowing the difference and picking the right opportunity is helpful for success. In this situation, buying "the wrong" viv at full retail to "save some time" would be a waste, of both money and time.

My experiences anyway - do what you like and pay attention to how it goes. Good luck!


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

I have very minimal escape with my 6 insitu amazonia tanks. Just make sure you push the glass to the sides after you feed. If you leave a crack they will escape. Much less fruit fly action in my bar since switching to them. Escpecially if you feed the golden hydei. I never see those around the room anymore. Not sure if the melanogaster I see escaped during feeding or from the tanks themselves.

What I did before was silicone a glass lid on the exos and then cover the trim edges on the doors in a small layer of caulk to "seal" it. Worked pretty good. Better than the stock screen lids.


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

jgragg said:


> @OP - I recommend you *just build your own*.
> 
> Even if you break it when you're almost done, if you start over and don't break the second one, you'll have spent about the same amount of money as if you'd gone full-retail.
> If you don't break the first one, you'll have a half-price hull.
> ...


Each iteration will become better and cost less. I've made over 20 front opening custom vented vivariums and I can pull off one for $100 that would cost 500-600 if you could find someone to make it for you. I make vivs for Dart and Arboreal frogs. An off the shelf tank could never match what you can design yourself. Someday we may have a good vivarium builder here in the U.S.A.; but the market will really need to expand to keep that hero from starving.


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## SkubaSTI (May 20, 2020)

mille981 said:


> I have very minimal escape with my 6 insitu amazonia tanks. Just make sure you push the glass to the sides after you feed. If you leave a crack they will escape. Much less fruit fly action in my bar since switching to them. Escpecially if you feed the golden hydei. I never see those around the room anymore. Not sure if the melanogaster I see escaped during feeding or from the tanks themselves.
> 
> What I did before was silicone a glass lid on the exos and then cover the trim edges on the doors in a small layer of caulk to "seal" it. Worked pretty good. Better than the stock screen lids.


Do you have any links to build journals on the insitu tanks? I was thinking of buying one but there’s very few examples I’ve seen besides the stock photos on their site and I guess since I’m a new member can’t search your profile for it.


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

I've been in the hobby for 30 years, but don't usually post online. I'll share a few pics of a set of tanks I am working on right now. None of them are done yet. There will be 4 tanks set up as one larger design that carries through them. I have been using ultum controsoil instead of abg mix on these as a test. It is an excellent plant tank soil, so far growing in very well. More nutrient rich for moss growth. I collect live oak, sea grapes and magnolia from around the house. It was my first time using zoopoxy. Had a little learning curve during these two. The next two are looking better I think.


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## SkubaSTI (May 20, 2020)

mille981 said:


> I've been in the hobby for 30 years, but don't usually post online. I'll share a few pics of a set of tanks I am working on right now. None of them are done yet. There will be 4 tanks set up as one larger design that carries through them. I have been using ultum controsoil instead of abg mix on these as a test. It is an excellent plant tank soil, so far growing in very well. More nutrient rich for moss growth. I collect live oak, sea grapes and magnolia from around the house. It was my first time using zoopoxy. Had a little learning curve during these two. The next two are looking better I think.


Thanks for sharing. Those are gonna look great all planted. Out of curiosity in the pics on their site it looks like the fans are too close to the back wall for if you wanted to build a background. Is that the case?


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

The fans are close to the backwall but I'm okay with that. I usually leave a space at the top of my backgrounds. Many of the frogs like to go sit on top of the tree fern root or whatever and the fruit flies go up high as well.


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

I ordered tanks from Jason once. Used my credit card. I did a charge back after he failed to deliver 3 times. I have heard that he does a good job when he does come through, but good luck. 

Glasscages.com will make anything you want custom and they are very easy to work with. Just send them a drawing and ask for the owner. They made my 600G paludarium as well as two other show tanks of mine. Plus they deliver all over the country for very cheap. They make everything out of waaayy toooo thick glass bc they are used to fish tanks. I would ask for thinner glass at least for the doors.


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## SkubaSTI (May 20, 2020)

mille981 said:


> The fans are close to the backwall but I'm okay with that. I usually leave a space at the top of my backgrounds. Many of the frogs like to go sit on top of the tree fern root or whatever and the fruit flies go up high as well.


did you get the aluminum or glass back? How do you like the light?


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## [email protected] (May 29, 2020)

I'm still waiting on a tank ordered in may...they've stopped answering my phone calls.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> I'm still waiting on a tank ordered in may...they've stopped answering my phone calls.


From which company?


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> I'm still waiting on a tank ordered in may...they've stopped answering my phone calls.


Going out on a limb...Protean?


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## orangeversion (Jul 7, 2020)

Just in the right time i got to see this post. I was about to get one from there.


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## DigitalChromosome (Jun 25, 2020)

It looks like its a little late to address the question of the OP but I can say that my exo-terra seems to be coming along pretty well. There was a list of issues that someone gave up above, but I think I've addressed all of these through heavy modification. This route is definitely doable, but you will have to invest a lot of time and/or money in my opinion to convert it so that it maintains humidity, doesn't let flies out, and looks damn good.

I too almost bought a protean. Luckily I spent a few days doing my research on them. I think my decision was obvious. There were simply too many bad reviews, reports to the BBB and so on. I wasn't willing to try building my first viv from scratch, but my next one certainly will be!


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