# Small orchids blooming in an old tank--



## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I never planted these little white orchids in one of my older imitator tanks. Five years later, I've suddenly discovered a small mass of about six 1 inch orchid blooms toward the bottom of the tank against the old pressed cocos fiber on the background. I have taken pictures with my digital, but cannot seem to download them from my Camedia (Olympus) onto my Picture it! program after upgrading my computer to the latest version of Microsoft XP. I need to consult my computer guru, since I'm an ignoramous. This is very frustrating. 

In any event, like the various mushrooms, mosses and ferns that have grown "spontaneously" over the years at various times on these panels, on cork bark, and in the substrate, this has been another delightful surprise. It must have taken them a full five years to develop and then bloom in this tank, obviously from some seed that was embedded in the pressed panels. I cannot actually distinguish the leaves, because they are virtuallly covered by other growth, and the cluster of blooms themselves, but I think the leaves are small, mottled with some white. They are also toward the bottom of the tank, in an area away from the light. 

I know that people who do not "sterilize" everything do come up with some interesting stuff, but this cluster of tiny white orchids out of nowhere, seems unbelievable, even to me, and no one else will believe it until I can overcome the inability to post pictures.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi slaytnop!!

Nice to see you again.

wow Orchids suddenly sprouting, i think thats my dream!
Can't wait to the see the pics. Do you think this would be a tropical species?? I imagine so, i mean, it survived constant conditions for 5 years. 

Did you know it was an orchid before it bloomed??

Congrats!


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

FYI- Most orchids take about 7 years to mature (flower) from seed. We look forward to your photos!

-J


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I didn't even know there was anything there except the tiny duck-foot ivy, and even now, I can't see the leaves very well, so I can't imagine how it was getting enough light to survive, let alone bloom, because it is in the darkest corner of this hexagonal tank with 3 sides covered with pressed cocoas panels filled with all kinds of stuff, including 2 different small ferns I didn't plant, either. (These ferns have shown up on cocos panels in other viviariums, as well, so I'm pretty sure that's where the original spores came from.) I'm relatively familiar with our western and alpine orchids, and it's certainly none of those. I can't find anything quite like it in Exotica III. I don't want to disturb it now, but when it finishes blooming, I will try to strip off some of the little ivy and look more closely at the leaves. The flowers seem to have come up individually in a group--on short stems. I can't see a raceme. They are a little over an inch long, with a broad, longer, somewhat ruffled lower petal, two spade-shaped upper petals, interspersed with three longer, narrow, pointed petals. They are pure white, with just a touch of green at the base, and the anthers are clear yellow. There were about 6 blooms in various stages when I first discovered them. 

Since I've been unable to download the photos to my picture it, I'll see if I can't print them from the Camedia Master and then scan and download them from there onto one of my photo albums. 

I do have some albums in Kingsnake and Village Photos, but have been unable to create one here. Does anyone know how to go about this? It just tells me I'm not allowed to do it.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

*Photos of the orchid-like flowers.*

I was able to post pictures of these orchid-like flowers on Kingsnake in the arrow frog forum from my gallery there. Please take a look at them if you have time. I now doubt they are orchids at all, but probably some kind of parasitic or saphrophitic flower. There are no leaves belonging to these flowers visible anywhere, and the flower stalks are transparent brownish with no green. They are also very fragile, each lasting only one day before mushing away. 

I did do a rather extensive search (with many photographs) of the sites devoted to parasitic flora, and could find nothing that really fit.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2006)

Are yu sure those are orchids. I am no expert, but I was under the impression that orchid flowers all lasted at least a few weeks.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2006)

i thought from your initial description that you had some sort of reed stem epidendrum or something... i've never seen that flower in any of my species guides...


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2006)

*Great Plant*

I have looked at the pictures on Kingsnake, and I don't think what you have is an orchid. It looks from the pictures like it lacks the 3 petals and 3 sepals. It also looks like the blooms are coming out of a real fleshy stalk. It is a fascinating plant though. The fact that there aren't visable leaves and it is putting out such a nice big clean flower makes it a real find. I also don't think it is a member of the Gesneriad family either. Keep your eyes on it and let us know if it puts out a seed pod, or if leaves do appear. It would really be nice to ID the plant.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2006)

can you post the link to the pics please,

Thanks.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

As I said above, it is not an orchid after all, only "orchid-like" in appearance. It actually does appear to have three petals in some specimens, and the three sharp pointed petals could be sepals, but indeed it doesn't last long at all, and has none of an orchid's more solid substance. The stems remind me more of some of the parasitic Orobanches or Monotrophas. They are not green, but a slightly brownish color, and very weak, almost as if they were part of the flower tube itself. Neither could I imagine any orchid blooming in the darkest reaches of this tank. 

I will keep looking for an identity. I can't find any sign of leaves that might belong to it. It's almost all deteriorated now, with no sign of seed pods. I took the last bloom to take apart examine closely and preserve. There doesn't appear to be an ovary or pistils, only the anthers, so it could be a male of a dimorphic species of some kind of parasitic or saphrophytic plant. In the meantime, I'll keep watching the area to see if anything else crops up. Whatever it is, it's certainly been fun to find. 

Thanks for sharing it with me during the short time it's been conspicuous.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2006)

Well I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty that if you can see anthers then it is most definatley not an orchid. One of the defining(with a few exceptions) charachteristics of the orchid family is the fusion of both sexual organs in to one, called the column.
Initially what you described sounded like Aerangis but with the mention of anthers i can tell you it is definately not an orchid. I would really like to see the pic though!
Maybe you could copy and paste the link for us that dont frequent the Kingsnake forum and would have no idea where to begin looking.


Matt


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2006)

whatever, who cares if they're not orchids, those are awesome flowers!
for anyone who wants it, heres the link:
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1008089,1008089


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2006)

Wow, those are really nice. You must be happy.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Rubisco, thank you for the information. I'm still working on attempting to copy and paste to here through my Village photos gallery, which I know how to do this from, but use so seldom, I forgot and lost both my user name and my password and am in the process of recovering it. I don't know how to copy and paste it from Kingsnake, which doesn't appear to give that option. I'm truly computer illiterate, so have to bumble around through these things. 

One of the postive things about Kingsnake is the ease of creating a gallery, downloading and posting pictures on that site, but it dosn't seem to be compatible with taking the pictures anywhere else.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2006)

*pictures?*


























pictures. this flower is rather interesting


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

man that is rad!!!!


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

I can see why you thought it might be an orchid... And it does look a bit like an Aerangis (but it isn't). I'm mostly with Rubisco on this one, 95+% sure it isn't an orchid. But, there are some tricky orchids out there. I've seen truely bizzare orchids come to the judging table, and sometimes you just have to take the taxonomist's word for it when they claim it is an orchid. 

There are saprophytic orchids, of course. Not many, or at least many that we know about. This is a group of orchids (and plants in general) that are not as well understood or described as we might like. From your own description, this thing only blooms ephemerally, and there is no above ground plant parts to see... 

Whatever you have, it is definitely worth trying to identify. It might be common as dirt, just waiting for the right person to view the thread. Or it might be a new species, for all we know. Next time it blooms, if you haven't figured out what it is already, pick a flower and preserve it (contact me for a method, if you need to). And propagate it, if you can figure out how. I'd put it in one of my tanks.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2006)

littlefrog said:


> There are saprophytic orchids, of course. Not many, or at least many that we know about. This is a group of orchids (and plants in general) that are not as well understood or described as we might like. From your own description, this thing only blooms ephemerally, and there is no above ground plant parts to see...
> 
> Whatever you have, it is definitely worth trying to identify. It might be common as dirt, just waiting for the right person to view the thread. Or it might be a new species, for all we know. Next time it blooms, if you haven't figured out what it is already, pick a flower and preserve it (contact me for a method, if you need to). And propagate it, if you can figure out how. I'd put it in one of my tanks.


You took the words right out of my mouth.
Patty, I can see how you thought it was an orchid perhaps you are correct.
From your photo the plant appears to have a column, Im not sure if its just lack of detail but the center where the yellow is do you see something like a single thick stem with a cap or is it many thin stems that appear to have a granular suface?
Perhaps its my monitor.
Id really like to see a macro image of this flower. The profile you took was very helpful.
I would reccomend you contact your State horticultural extension office
and see if they could direct you to a resource.


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Well, I forwarded the picture to Dr. Guido Braem (a well known orchid taxonomist, and other plants). He wasn't going to spend much time on it, but said that it was a dicot, and hence definitely not an orchid. Couldn't remember the genus off the top of his head.

Getting somewhere... Not sure where.


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## StevenBonheim (Feb 22, 2004)

I know nothing about them, but at first glance it reminds me of some Utricularia flowers I've seen...


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2006)

littlefrog said:


> Well, I forwarded the picture to Dr. Guido Braem (a well known orchid taxonomist, and other plants). He wasn't going to spend much time on it, but said that it was a dicot, and hence definitely not an orchid. Couldn't remember the genus off the top of his head.
> 
> Getting somewhere... Not sure where.


Well maybe, Guido is known for his work with the slippers. I honestly dont know what his history is with saprophytes. Id like to know why he felt it was a dicot? 
Hes an interesting person to say the least. With that said I dont necessarily trust everything that comes out of his mouth.


Matt


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Rubisco said:


> littlefrog said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I forwarded the picture to Dr. Guido Braem (a well known orchid taxonomist, and other plants). He wasn't going to spend much time on it, but said that it was a dicot, and hence definitely not an orchid. Couldn't remember the genus off the top of his head.
> ...


Actually his specialty is ferns (or something I don't grow, anyway), I think... He does slippers on the side. He is a pretty good taxonomist, actually. In person he is great, nice guy. A bit abrasive on the internet, which might just be people not understanding his humor. But I trust his taxonomic judgments, most of the time. I reserve the right to disagree with anybody, though.

Don't know why he thought it was dicot, but he seemed pretty confident about it.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

No one is an expert on everything! I have a relatively well known herpetologist at my school. He works with native salamanders, and in the range of the animals he studies, his word is pretty good. That said, I corrected his power point presentations from that class when it came to some tropical amphibians, like PDFs and a couple of neotropical hylids, lol.

He might be good enough to point you in the right direction tho, all you have to do now is find more of an expert in that direction, and get their opinion.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Thanks, tfraleigh--I'm sorry to be such a dunce. With age, does not come computer wisdom, I fear.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

I do indeed like the flowers, even if they aren't orchids. If the blooms are continuous and last a while, and we can ID the plant, we may very well have a new viv staple!


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2006)

heh heh, no worries. You can reward me if you wish, mabye a tissue culture of this little mystery?


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2006)

littlefrog said:


> Actually his specialty is ferns (or something I don't grow, anyway), I think... He does slippers on the side. He is a pretty good taxonomist, actually. In person he is great, nice guy. A bit abrasive on the internet, which might just be people not understanding his humor. But I trust his taxonomic judgments, most of the time. I reserve the right to disagree with anybody, though.
> 
> Don't know why he thought it was dicot, but he seemed pretty confident about it.


Really I didnt know he was into ferns. Slippers on the side eh? Do you know how many books hes published on that family? I too have met him and id have to say hes abrasive regardless of his medium. I too trust his judgments MOST of the time, but his behavior is generally so erratic that sometimes i worry it spills over if you know what i mean.
The reason Im curious about the dicot issue is the clarity of the images is simply not that good( no offense Slaytonp) but i honestly couldnt clearly make out the morphology of the flower. And I have no idea how he came to that conclusion if he couldnt even see the sexual organs!
Either way its a pretty cool plant. Im curious are the flowers scented at all?
day or night?

Matt

Matt


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

It is not scented at all. The flowers are tissue paper thin, have very little substance to them, seem to virtually melt when you touch them. I've managed to preserve one in borax, and pressed one. We'll just have to wait and see. I do have a stereoscope, so will look closer at the sex organs to see then better. Grossly, I didn't distinguish a pistil or ovary, only the anthers, but I'll look closer, which might help. If there is an ovary, it is superior to the petals and what I assume are the three sharp, narrow sepals. Although the top two petals are not distinct, and could be a lobed single petal, with the lower, wider bottom petal, my impression is that this is a 3 petal, 3 sepal flower, with no true calyx or stem. It's like the entire flower comes from one flower tube of the same consistency, but a bit tanner in color, right out of the substrate.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2006)

slaytonp said:


> It is not scented at all. The flowers are tissue paper thin, have very little substance to them, seem to virtually melt when you touch them. I've managed to preserve one in borax, and pressed one. We'll just have to wait and see. I do have a stereoscope, so will look closer at the sex organs to see then better. Grossly, I didn't distinguish a pistil or ovary, only the anthers, but I'll look closer, which might help. If there is an ovary, it is superior to the petals and what I assume are the three sharp, narrow sepals. Although the top two petals are not distinct, and could be a lobed single petal, with the lower, wider bottom petal, my impression is that this is a 3 petal, 3 sepal flower, with no true calyx or stem. It's like the entire flower comes from one flower tube of the same consistency, but a bit tanner in color, right out of the substrate.



Phe Phi Pho Phum, I smell the words of a botanist. 
Are you one?


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2006)

Perhaps now that the flowers are gone it would be time to scrutinize the area in which they came from. A small mirror like from a compaq would suffice in helping you gain a different p.o.v. And maybe a magnifiying glass as well like the big ones they make to help people read small print.

Matt


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Khamul--I've had some botany classes and used to botanize in Nevada with Margaret Williams and Hugh Monzingo (Alpine and desert flora). They are both deceased now, but were relatively well known in the 50's, 60's and 70's. I also hosted some different foreign botanists who visited our area of Idaho, and guided them on excursions such as Pass Creek and Mt. Borah, the Sawtooths, etc. We have a number of endemic flora in the area, and I pretty well knew where to find what they were looking for. I also collected seed for a British alpine plantsman, Les Kreeger, for many years. I'm not a "real" botanist, however, and know very little about tropical flora. My mountain goat days are also over, alas. 

Matt--I'm searching the area with both my digital camera viewer, which seems to be the most useful, and a mechainic's mirror. The imitators took it upon themselves to lay some more eggs after a long period of non-breeding, so I don't want to rip off the surrounding ficus or do a lot of disturbing. I really can't see anything that suggests there were are are leaves there, but I'll keep searching periodically. 

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions!!


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

slaytonp said:


> Khamul--I've had some botany classes and used to botanize in Nevada with Margaret Williams and Hugh Monzingo (Alpine and desert flora). They are both deceased now, but were relatively well known in the 50's, 60's and 70's. I also hosted some different foreign botanists who visited our area of Idaho, and guided them on excursions such as Pass Creek and Mt. Borah, the Sawtooths, etc. We have a number of endemic flora in the area, and I pretty well knew where to find what they were looking for. I also collected seed for a British alpine plantsman, Les Kreeger, for many years. I'm not a "real" botanist, however, and know very little about tropical flora. My mountain goat days are also over, alas.
> 
> Matt--I'm searching the area with both my digital camera viewer, which seems to be the most useful, and a mechainic's mirror. The imitators took it upon themselves to lay some more eggs after a long period of non-breeding, so I don't want to rip off the surrounding ficus or do a lot of disturbing. I really can't see anything that suggests there were are are leaves there, but I'll keep searching periodically.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions!!


Botanize? That sounds creepy for some reason...


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2006)

Thats such a cool way to spend all those years of your life.


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