# Unbiased advice on receiving froglet with SLS



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi all,

I was hoping that I could get some unbiased advice to make sure that I'm not in the wrong. I recently purchased a group of froglets, one of which clearly has SLS. I recognized it the second I saw it, esp. contrasted with the others. Am I out of line to ask for a refund for that froglet? It's unclear since the frog arrived alive but clearly has a diminished chance for survival. Any advice would be gratefully appreciated. Also, nothing about the SLS was communicated to me beforehand. I saw pics of the group and was told they were all 3 -4 months.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Refund.............no doubt about it!!!


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

I'd say something for sure.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

I'd talk to the seller about it. There's a chance they dont know about sls and sent it unknowingly. I dont think a refund is out of the question though


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks. 

The seller asked me to, "Please give the frog a chance. At times when they are really young they appear to have SLS but then get better. Give the little frog a chance for a couple of weeks." The seller offered to give a refund or provide another frog "if it doesn't make it." However, even if the froglet makes it won't it be impaired and unable to breed, etc. I suppose my question is whether being sent an sls frog (even when it lives) is cause for a refund. It isn't entirely clear to me.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

i would definitely get in contact with the seller and discus a refund or possibly a non sls replacement. there is a good chance it could survive with sls but breeding would be out of the question. i think receiving a sls frog weather it lives or not mandates a refund.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Yup, I spoke with the seller and his response is above. I'm just wondering whether it still warrants a refund if the sls frog doesn't die immediately. I really don't know and don't want to pressure the seller if a refund isn't accepted practice if the froglet arrives with SLS and lives.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The seller asked me to, "Please give the frog a chance. At times when they are really young they appear to have SLS but then get better. Give the little frog a chance for a couple of weeks." The seller offered to give a refund or provide another frog "if it doesn't make it." However, even if the froglet makes it won't it be impaired and unable to breed, etc. I suppose my question is whether being sent an sls frog (even when it lives) is cause for a refund. It isn't entirely clear to me.


It depends on the degree of sls. I have seen frogs that have abnormal legs but be totally functional and fine. If it can move around well and is able to feed then it will probably do well. All because it has some degree of SLS doesn't automatically mean that it is impaired. 

Ed


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

stemcellular said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The seller asked me to, "Please give the frog a chance. At times when they are really young they appear to have SLS but then get better. Give the little frog a chance for a couple of weeks." QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

This is just my opinion but I think there are several factors involved. From what you are stating it sounds like you may want to ask for a replacement or refund.

I am unfamiliar with if a frog can indeed live years of it's life with SLS. If this is possible there is probably a good amount of babying that has to be done by the caregiver.

However, from your statement above about possibly breeding, in all my reading no one has ever stated for certain if SLS is hereditary, dietary, environmental, or otherwise. It has been the opinion of several people that it is a combination of all of the above. If SLS or the tendency for SLS is hereditary (DNA driven) in any form or factor even if the little guy is able to survive and some how successfully breed you would not want to encourage the passing of the genes.

With that in mind if it were me and I were looking to breed the frogs I would ask for a refund.

Now, stepping out of someone elses shoes and into my own. If it were actually me I would give the little guy a chance. Not to breed or anything but just to try and give him the hope of some sort of life. But that is me I've been known to take in animals that other people had condemed to death and given up on just for that sake. Most of the time things turn out ok. There definately are some judgement calls though when it comes to breeding animals that have oddities or deformities.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Ok, I'll try to get a picture up later this evening but in the meantime will just see what I can do to keep the little guy going.

Thanks for all the input.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

if you bought a brand new car and had delivered and it had a scratch on the door would you just take it or call the dealer and get it fixed.
same principle


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## asch803 (Nov 10, 2007)

sounddrive, good analogy, but this is much worse than a scratch! More like a broken axle. Good luck with the little guy, but you should certainly be offered a refund or replacement frog. I'm sure the breeder will do the right things.

Andy


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

It wouldn't matter to me if the frog lived or died. It wasn't what you paid for or thought you would be getting. The seller should be sending you a healthy replacement froglet at their expense or a refund. If the seller is asking that you return the frog I think that should at their expense as well.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Pics below - sorry, quality isn't even satisfactory but I think you get the idea.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't think a spindly leg frog would be able to climb the side of a container... at least the SLS that I'm used to seeing. Can you post a picture of one of the others to compare? Also if you could get a picture in better focus that would be helpful.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I'll try with a better camera tonight. However, it looks exactly like this (and notice this frog is also climbing). 

http://www.amphibiancare.com/frogs/...ls/mantellas/m_madagascariensis_tadpole03.jpg


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed said:


> It depends on the degree of sls. I have seen frogs that have abnormal legs but be totally functional and fine. If it can move around well and is able to feed then it will probably do well. All because it has some degree of SLS doesn't automatically mean that it is impaired.
> 
> Ed


I have seen the same as well.

I am not defending the seller here - so please don't take it as such, but I have had frogs where it is hard to tell if it has SLS or just skinnier legs - because of the pattern of the legs. Truncatus are a good examples of ones where it is difficult to tell. 

All I can do is tell you how I would handle the situation. 
1. I might ask for a picture, especially if I totally missed noticing it. I also might ask for a comparison pictures. Not necessarily because I don't believe you (although it might seem that way) but because I would be upset I missed it.
2. Would offer/issue you a refund of the purchase price of the frog. 
3. Ask that you keep the frog - and keep me up to date on progress.
4. If the frog dies and you want another one, offer you a nice discount and or work something out. 

The reason I would ask you to keep the frog, is because of what Ed said. It might not have a severe form of SLS and might live for a while. If it doesn't it might die sooner or later. Since SLS is not something that can be passed between frogs your knowledge & experience will increase and you might learn a thing or two in the experience.

I would explain to the seller that you paid for healthy frogs. What you received were not up to your expectations. You are not looking to take advantage of him, but are not happy with the transaction and would like to work towards a solution.

Hope that you find this helpful.

Melis


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> I'll try with a better camera tonight. However, it looks exactly like this (and notice this frog is also climbing).
> ...


I guess that speaks to Ed's point about "levels of spindly". Mine usually face plant into the substrate and don't really move much.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

also - what type of frog is it? The quality of the picture is poor.

There are some frogs that do have skinnier legs than others.

Also, frogs with serious forms of SLS will not be able to climb the containers and can barely hold themselves up. The fact this frog is 3-4 months old would make me believe if it does have SLS it is a slight case.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> I guess that speaks to Ed's point about "levels of spindly". Mine usually face plant into the substrate and don't really move much.


Same here - usually it is pretty obvious when you have spindley. They might live for a while, but it is usually days in the most serious cases.

Good description Robb.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just to be clear here.. I was not addressing whether or not a refund was due if the frog has SLS. I was simply stating that since it is a spectrum disorder mildly affected animals can live long and productive lives without being "babysat". Unless you really knew what you were looking at, mild SLS cases may pass totally unnoticed. Ihave dealt with mild SLS affected tincts that lived for more than 8-10 years. 



dwdragon said:


> However, from your statement above about possibly breeding, in all my reading no one has ever stated for certain if SLS is hereditary, dietary, environmental, or otherwise.


The vast majority of causes of SLS are nutritionally driven, this is supported by both some of the research as well as anecdotal reports (see my article in Leaf Litter for references). There are some enviromental causes as well. I would expect that there are also gentic causes but I would also expect that these are hidden by the vast majority of nutritional and enviromental causes cases of SLS. 



dwdragon said:


> how successfully breed you would not want to encourage the passing of the genes.


If the frog is registered in ASN then this would depend on how well represented the frog was in the hobby. If it is from a frog with little or no genetic representation then its genes may be needed for long term sustainability of the population. If you had access to the SSP studbook used by AZA, there are animals in them that are crossed into the population to maintain genes due to poor representation that have gentic issues. 


Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks! I will of course do my best to make sure this little guy makes it (and hopefully survives to be good and old). 

Melissa, I did just that. I told the seller that I would leave it up to him/her whether to refund or send a replacement. Ultimately, its only $ to me. My biggest concern was that it would impact the future size of my breeding group since these frogs are harder to find then others. To be fair, I honestly think he/she missed it since the froglets are so small. As for species, I'd rather not say since it would possibly help identify the seller. Let's just say that this specific frog is def. 3 -4 months old and has very small front limbs compared to the others in the group.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Ed said:


> Just to be clear here.. I was not addressing whether or not a refund was due if the frog has SLS. I was simply stating that since it is a spectrum disorder mildly affected animals can live long and productive lives without being "babysat". Unless you really knew what you were looking at, mild SLS cases may pass totally unnoticed. Ihave dealt with mild SLS affected tincts that lived for more than 8-10 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry about that Ed it hadn't even crossed my mind due to the small populations of frogs that there are to work with that even a genetically deformed specimen would be desirable just to freshen up the gene pool and keep from having more serious bottlenecks.

Unfortunately my train of thought on breeding and genetics is still stuck on the "have plenty of genes to pick from" and for that I apologize as most of the animals / herps I've worked with do not have a short supply of unrelated breeders.

Hope that reads ok as the wording sounds off to me but basically I'm agreeing with you because I hadn't thought of that perspective.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Hi all,

Please see the video: YouTube - Froglet with SLS?

I really hope that I jumped the gun and that it isn't SLS. 

Thanks again for all the input. It is much appreciated.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

i would say sls those legs look very thin. I'm no expert but Ive seen a few sls froglets before.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

good vid, you've really got me guessing on those froglets lol. To my untrained eye it would appear there is definitely some sls going on there. Not only the size of the front legs but the apparent difficulty using them toward the end of the video. Much further discussion seems kinda moot though as the final decision is really up to you and the seller.


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Looks like his mobility is impaired to me. I'd get a refund or a replacement frog. I would, like you, continue to support the little guy but he is definitely not what you paid top dollar for!


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I'd try to save him, but the bottom line is that you should get a very healthy and normal animal when you buy from someone. So even if they failed to notice it, I would think most breeders would automatically compensate you for the unhealthy animal. It's not like darts are exactly cheap either...........


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

My friend I see no problem in requesting [demanding] a refund.

Looks to me from the blurry pics [I didnt download the Utube thingy] to be a 2-3 mo old tricolor. They are very prone to SLS IME. And I've seen them climb like the dickens with it even...

I cant imagine anyone having an issue with that. 

I've actually had something similar happen to me with a pumilio. No questions asked the seller sent a replacement, free of charge. And paid to have the other animal sent back. No harm, no foul.

I have 3 FR frogs with missing toes/feet from canabalism at the INIBICO hatcheries. Since it is not 'genetic' it isnt a big issue with them. In that case I also contacted the seller and we agreed to wait. They are 2 years old now, no issues at all.

So, bottom line. Things happen. Mostly by accident. Be clear, be firm in what you need, and expect a responsible resolution. If not, well....you buy from someone else next time


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Observations from a mantella breeder-- that froglet clearly has some form of spindly-- it looks exactly like the spindly froglets that I produced with healthy ones in my ebenaui's last clutch.

It looks like the madagascariensis froglet pictured on Devin's website.

Unless the froglets have had their metabolism slowed by low temperatures, they do NOT look 3-4 months old-- more like the first few weeks of development.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Similar to what I have seen with Mantellas as well. They will come out like that every once in a while. 

Reason I guessed mantella is because of original poster's signature. 

...also - depending on the type of mantella the age estimation could be correct. A lot of things can slow/speed up development including the size of the original froglets. Some mantellas are SMALL!!!! 



Rain_Frog said:


> Observations from a mantella breeder-- that froglet clearly has some form of spindly-- it looks exactly like the spindly froglets that I produced with healthy ones in my ebenaui's last clutch.
> 
> It looks like the madagascariensis froglet pictured on Devin's website.
> 
> Unless the froglets have had their metabolism slowed by low temperatures, they do NOT look 3-4 months old-- more like the first few weeks of development.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

I had two froglets with SLS in the past with one being worse than the other. I only noticed the one at first, and was only compensated for the one froglet, since the degree of SLS was not a severe in the other froglet. Eventually I noticed it in both of them and pu them in a simple setup. I took care of them like my other frogs but they eventually did perish.

I would definitly contact the seller and get a refund or another frog, becuas ejust like you said they will either die or be unable to breed/ interact within the group


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Couple of comments...

1. The frog you are concerned about seems to be of concern.

2. The frogs in general seem very young. I would not suggest buying frogs younger than 2 months old. Buy this time the seller or buyer should be able to see a frog large enough to tell if all of the limbs are working properly.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks Kyle.

According to the seller, the froglets were at least 3 months and most 4 months by the time they were sold. To be honest, I would not have purchased them if I had known how small they would be. I saw some pics but proportion is hard to tell over the web. At 3-4 months, most mantellas are ready to go so I was shocked to see how small they were upon arrival (and double shocked to see one with what I suspected to be sls).

Sadly, I lost the sls froglet this morning. He had been getting noticeably thinner but he was still active so I assumed that he was getting some nutrition. I've been keeping him separate from the others with lots and lots of springtails but had never seen him go for any. Really sad, but at least the other froglets are doing well and getting bigger and bigger each day.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

9 days. Well, looks like the non believing vendor should believe you know.

Make sure you preserve the animal - so you can provide proof if needed. Might not be necessary, but you never know.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Hopefully the others continue to do well.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

in my opinion its sls all the way after watching the video and seeing the difrences in the 2 siblings {this is what i was refering to in other sls thread} i would say a refund or replacment frog is reasonable. dont be to harsh on the seller if he makes good on it , stuff happens and its all about how we deal with it that makes or breaks us.
best of luck with the others.as for age thats a crap shoot some frogs morph out smaller than others and dif set ups have dif results, not really familiar with mantellas but in darts at least.
craig


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

somecanadianguy said:


> in my opinion its sls all the way after watching the video and seeing the difrences in the 2 siblings {this is what i was refering to in other sls thread} i would say a refund or replacment frog is reasonable. dont be to harsh on the seller if he makes good on it , stuff happens and its all about how we deal with it that makes or breaks us.
> best of luck with the others.as for age thats a crap shoot some frogs morph out smaller than others and dif set ups have dif results, not really familiar with mantellas but in darts at least.
> craig


I agree with you about it being SLS - was pretty obvious to me as well. My comments earlier were directed to comments made earlier that the seller wanted the buyer to wait for a couple weeks before acting. 

Regardless, sorry to hear you lost him & good luck with your other frogs.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks all! The other frogs are finally getting their coloration so that's exciting and hopefully a good indicator. Since the frog died, I requested a refund from the seller so hopefully that will come through. At least I've documented everything. Thanks for all the input.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Some pics of the deceased froglet (just to reaffirm my initial diagnosis that it had sls)


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

WOW ....and that is just hours after it died?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

yeah, about 3-4 hours after it finally stopped breathing. It was pretty freaking sad just watching it slowly expire.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Definetily sls, and its hind legs look a little bloated but it could just look like that because the torso area has already started to decompose and maybe the legs have not yet? 

I'm sorry you had to watch the process, I hate watching something like that knowing there is nothing you can do to fix it.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

This is where we need some of the larger breeders / sellers to weigh in on this.

I absolutely would like to know who sold that frog....


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

it looks almost exactly like the spindly froglets that died soon after morphing-- except they had more gray bellies and not legs.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> This is where we need some of the larger breeders / sellers to weigh in on this.
> 
> I absolutely would like to know who sold that frog....


I don't think it was sold intentionally. As long as both parties involved in the transaction have settled on an acceptable resolution I think it should be left at that.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> I don't think it was sold intentionally. As long as both parties involved in the transaction have settled on an acceptable resolution I think it should be left at that.


There is no doubt it was sold intentionally.

Without vendor feedback, we will never know. At least not publicly


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> There is no doubt it was sold intentionally.
> 
> Without vendor feedback, we will never know. At least not publicly


What if the seller is one of the larger breeders/sellers that you wanted to weigh in on it? It would seem to me that a larger breeder would actually have a better chance missing this then a smaller one since they are focusing on a larger amount of froglets and may not have the time to give them as close an eye as joe seller with one group of froglets. This is all just opinion and may be way off base, but I still don't see how it was without a doubt intentionally sold in this condition.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Large or small size breeder /seller......there is no excuse for selling a frog in that condition. 

Thats what I wanted when I said some large breeders should weigh in. I know most of them would say what I have said above....all except the one that sold that frog.

Did you look at the video and then the pics? Read this entire thread? If you did, how can you possibly say that the seller did this unintentionally?
If an importer sells a shipment of a dozen or more frogs and one of them looks like that frog, then you could say it MAY have been a shipping and packaging mistake but this was three frogs to a hobbyist, not a wholesale shipment to a petshop. I can't see anyone packaging a frog like that in a shipping container by accident.This is not a witchhunt or a questionable diagnosis of rubbing or mystery death. It was pretty conclusive as SLS.

This transaction and the damage it caused to the buyer, this community and the hobby should not be downplayed. It hurts us all.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I'd like to ad that there are breeders out there who offer a full satisfaction guarantee along with the , now almost standard, live arrival guarantee. This may be something to look for when purchasing. But it should also be pretty much implied that all transactions should be guaranteed within reason...

Rich


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Phil, I would first off like to say that yes I did read the thread and watch the video. I agree with you that it is unfortunate that the frog was shipped out. I also understand that people are not perfect and can completely understand how this could be missed in packing the shipment. Without knowing the full story on this transaction it is unfair to say that this frog was shipped intentionally. What if the seller had something come up was running behind the day he packed them and had to rush to get the package shipped? I'm not trying to make excuses for the seller, but I feel it's unfair to label this as being intentionally sold in this condition without knowing all of the details. Like I said before, if both parties involved come to a settlement then that should be the end of it. I guess I understand now why they don't want feedback posted on the site.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Rich Frye said:


> I'd like to ad that there are breeders out there who offer a full satisfaction guarantee along with the , now almost standard, live arrival guarantee. This may be something to look for when purchasing. But it should also be pretty much implied that all transactions should be guaranteed within reason...
> 
> Rich


I agree. There is nothing as gut wrenching as when you make a purchase and it turns out broke or defective or just not right and you are stuck with it.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> There is no doubt it was sold intentionally.
> 
> Without vendor feedback, we will never know. At least not publicly


You can't say that for certain. If you look at some of the earlier posts communications from the seller mentioned sometimes these guys have smaller front limbs and the issue resolves itself. Not everyone agreed with his statements, but this isn't our transaction - it is between the buyer and the seller. 



stemcellular said:


> ......The seller asked me to, "Please give the frog a chance. At times when they are really young they appear to have SLS but then get better. Give the little frog a chance for a couple of weeks." The seller offered to give a refund or provide another frog "if it doesn't make it." ....


So, before anyone jumps on the bandwagon to go after the vendor, the vendor NEVER shut the door on this issue just asked the OP to please wait a bit and see how things turn out. Well, that is exactly what has happened and now it is time for the vendor to follow through. Just because we didn't agree with the vendor said - does not mean he committed the cardinal sin and tried to screw the buyer. Because of this, the seller at this point committed no more than a mistake at this piont - and we need to sit back and see what the final outcome of this transaction is before we condemn anyone. Based on the updates we have been getting, I am sure we will be advised of this as well.

The original poster brought this issue to the attention of the board asking for others to verify his diagnosis of the frog & questions about what he should expect as a customer as an acceptable solution. It was not a witch hunt for the vendor - which I am glad. Issues like this have the potential to get out of hand quickly. 

IMO - this thread is very valuable because:1. The OP (original poster) asked for advice on the issue & didn't make accusations.
2. It gives examples of the issues (pictures & videos), including the final outcome of the frog. 
3. Many, with different levels of experience were able to contribute their opinions about the possible diagnosis of the issue with the frogs front legs. As well as feedback as to the expected outcome of the frog.
4. Different opinions from members as to what expectations to expect from the seller. Including advice on documenting with photos.
5. The OP (original poster) shared some of the communications from the vendor, without identifying them.​As both Rich and I stated in earlier posts, most of us will offer a "satisfaction guarantee" on the frogs. If you are not happy with the the frogs you have received most people will work with you to resolve the issue _(buyer's remorse is not a valid issue - pretty obvious, but want to state it anyways.)_ Why do we offer it? a.) It is the right thing to do, b.) because we do not want unhappy or unsatisfied customers. 

I am sure Rich, Ed, Shawn & a couple other people confirm that most of us physically inspect the frogs we are going to ship or sell not once, but multiple times. Should this issue have been caught - IMO - yes, but it wasn't. 

All we can do now is wait for a possible update as to how this issue was resolved. People are making comments on the assumption the vendor turned their back on this issue - well if you look over the thread that was not the case. So, lets hold off and let the OP update us to the resolution of this issue.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

melissa68 said:


> You can't say that for certain. If you look at some of the earlier posts communications from the seller mentioned sometimes these guys have smaller front limbs and the issue resolves itself. Not everyone agreed with his statements, but this isn't our transaction - it is between the buyer and the seller.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could not agree more Melissa. Like I stated earlier in my post, while I agree it should not have been sent out, for whatever reason it was and I doubt that the intent was to pass on a frog in poor health. We all learn from mistakes and hopefully whatever the circumstances are that led to the frog getting shipped out will be learned from and be remedied in the future. It sounds like a resolution will be made between both parties and hopefully someone will find the information in this thread useful in the future.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

> Large or small size breeder /seller......there is no excuse for selling a frog in that condition.
> 
> Thats what I wanted when I said some large breeders should weigh in. I know most of them would say what I have said above....all except the one that sold that frog.
> 
> ...


Ive already caught a few negative rep points from my analogy on this thread some people just love to use that rep button. but I'm glad to see there are others that feel this way and aren't afraid to express it. I'm not going to say its impossible to miss shipping a frog like this out but unless you have very poor eye site or don't know what sls looks i don't see it happening. but in that case you probably shouldn't be shipping frogs period. that said nothing personal to this particular seller i think stem handled this very well kudos to you. in a more general statement anyone selling frogs should absolutely give a pretty strong guarantee (like rich said within reason) but things like this shouldn't be an issue. proper inspection of all animals should be performed prior to shipping whether it be 1 frog or 100 a visual abnormality is unacceptable regardless of quantity. i can understand if there is a problem that cant be seen. i had that happen my self and the vendor refunded my money, thats the way it should be and i was still super grateful. those are the qualities that make a respectable frogger and this a community and a family id like to think. Stem i hope that a reasonable conclusion is reach, i would say there is no doubt this is a crappy thing to have happen, at least the vendor has stayed in contact that is big step by its self. we may not all agree with their methods or comments but assuming responsibility speaks for its self. I'm a firm believer that actions speak louder than words.

best of luck

hopefully things work out for the best on both ends of the deal.

props again for handling the situation respectably.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks all. 

I really appreciate the feedback and I can say that I have definitely learned from this experience - both with regard to the expectations that I should have when buying frogs via the post and with regard to how such delicate issues should be handled via an online forum (and via email more generally). 

As many of you have said, I do not think the seller meant to send a frog with sls. Considering the size of the froglets, I do think it was just an oversight. However, I do think that if I was the seller I would not have contested my claim of sls. Personally, I feel that the evidence strongly pointed to that diagnosis (and do feel that the seller should have taken my claim uncontested). 

As of today I have yet to hear back from the seller about my request for a refund - made Friday morning. The seller had previously indicated that he would send me a replacement frog in the spring (with an understanding at the time that the sls frog would further develop (thus refuting my diagnosis) and/or live). Since the froglet in question died I wrote to the seller and requested a refund for the cost of the froglet. I'll will update this thread upon successful resolution of this issue.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hope everything works out and I would imagine you'll hear something back by Monday. Unlike me, I realize that some people have lives on the weekends


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

stemcellular said:


> As of today I have yet to hear back from the seller about my request for a refund - made Friday morning. The seller had previously indicated that he would send me a replacement frog in the spring (with an understanding at the time that the sls frog would further develop (thus refuting my diagnosis) and/or live). Since the froglet in question died I wrote to the seller and requested a refund for the cost of the froglet. I'll will update this thread upon successful resolution of this issue.


"Give the frog a chance"
"I'll replace the frog in the Spring"

Wow. There has got to be some kind of vendor feedback brought back. If you want to witness a real horror show....immerse yourself in the reptile hobby / industry. We need to be better than that. Every single transaction like this kills our hobby a little more each time. There should always be an incentive for the good respectable breeders that try hard to please the buyer and advance the hobby and the reverse for the other kind. Why does that seem to be asking to much?

I only buy local animals or from attendees at shows that are a fixture and not a fly by night table so that I can talk to the seller face to face. I realize that this is not a viable option for some people. Shipping has it's own inherent problems like, temperature and carrier services and then to add the roll of the dice with a bad frog....

Thanks to the OP for having the courage and conviction to stand up and do the right thing and post on this. 

Sorry for the rant....I had about 5 blue moons........


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Wow. There has got to be some kind of vendor feedback brought back. If you want to witness a real horror show....immerse yourself in the reptile hobby / industry. We need to be better than that. Every single transaction like this kills our hobby a little more each time. There should always be an incentive for the good respectable breeders that try hard to please the buyer and advance the hobby and the reverse for the other kind. Why does that seem to be asking to much?
> 
> I only buy local animals or from attendees at shows that are a fixture and not a fly by night table so that I can talk to the seller face to face. I realize that this is not a viable option for some people. Shipping has it's own inherent problems like, temperature and carrier services and then to add the roll of the dice with a bad frog....
> 
> ...


Hope you don't think I am picking on your...I am not .

Kyle has made it very clear vendor feedback is not happening on this site. I am not sure why you keep bringing it up - it isn't happening. BOI is the alternative if the OP feels the need to post about the vendor. But like I said earlier, the issue has not been resolved (negatively or positively) so wait.

I, like you try to do most of my purchases locally or with vendors I personally know and trust. At this point, locally isn't as much of an option for me but I strongly suggest anyone who is considering getting frogs buy them from a "breeder" in your area. 

Here are some suggestions sports doc posted a while ago on some suggestions on how to make purchasing decisions without a vendor feedback suggestion. They are excellent & I hope anyone who hasn't read them takes the time to do so: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ligence-online-frog-purchases.html#post302406


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Yeah, I realize that I am not going to get Kyle to change his mind on bringing back vendor feedback but when you take something away...this is the result - people speaking their mind.

Since naming names and vendor feedback are not allowed, posting, pics and video along with some strong opinions and convictions are all that we have left. 

The alternative is to be silent and just get rolled over.

and Stop picking on me Melissa....I'm not sure I can take it.


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

> Here are some suggestions sports doc posted a while ago on some suggestions on how to make purchasing decisions without a vendor feedback suggestion. They are excellent & I hope anyone who hasn't read them takes the time to do so: Proper Due Diligence for online frog purchases.


i have to agree, Sean has some very good points in that thread. if followed there is a good chance that your frog purchasing experience will go a little smoother. i will say that patients is key if you are willing to wait there is a good chance that you can find what you are looking for locally. this to me is always the best way to go if possible. nothing will replace meeting and getting to know the people that you frogs are coming from. Ive put more miles on my car driving crazy distance to deliver, meet, and pick up frogs. i personally don't like to ship on the grounds that i like to know where my frogs are going and what kind of life they have to look forward to. same gos for purchasing, i like to see where my frogs are coming from and what kind of life they have had so far. that said if shipping is a must than communication is everything. from the initial contact to a delivery follow up.

phill i had no idea you were so sensitive  just kidding.


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