# Fertile eggs going bad.



## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Recently my tricolors have been giving off clutches that are fertile and develope into little tads that are about to hatch and then the clutch molds over and goes bad. What can I do to prevent this?


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Are you using methylene blue with the eggs at all?

-Matt


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

I have ordered some. If it helps they have produced tads for me.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

could be a lot of reasons they are going bad. Not enough air flow could be part of the problem, or the eggs/tads could just be weak if the adults diet is lacking something. Could also be temperature related. The methylene blue might help, so worth a try for sure. It seems to help fertility when we feed a combination of crickets and fruit flies.

Good luck with them!


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

I have had similar problems. And when I do get tads they do not live long. I tried to give them more air circulation but then the male doesn't call. If feeding them crickets helps then its worth a try. I must have lost nearly 18 clutches by now.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

1-2 week crickets are no problem for the anthonyi and larvae feedings can help too.

We get plenty of bad clutches too (and egg eating from the females! The guarding male is pretty much powerless when one of the females decides she is going after the eggs...), but it's probably for the best that they don't all thrive or we would be up to our ears in froglets.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

JL-Exotics said:


> 1-2 week crickets are no problem for the anthonyi and larvae feedings can help too.
> 
> We get plenty of bad clutches too (and egg eating from the females! The guarding male is pretty much powerless when one of the females decides she is going after the eggs...), but it's probably for the best that they don't all thrive or we would be up to our ears in froglets.




True however I would like to get a few to survive


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

i've been having similar problems with my basti's for over a year. in the last post i made about it one of the things we came up with was the water. i switched to filling the canisters and broms with water with black water extract and so far i have had 8 tads and only seen one die, so i'm keeping my fingers crossed. another thing like mentioned is the parents diet. are you using vitamins over 6 months old?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is some information out there that this in some respects may be due to hypovitaminosis of A (as retinol not beta carotene). The supplements we typically use in the US do not contain retinol due to the concern about a form of MBD in the herps and it appears that frogs may not efficiently convert beta carotene to retinol as was once believed. 
You may want to consider supplmenting at least several times a month with a source of retinol. This is relatively new progress in understanding frog husbandry. 

Ed


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Ed said:


> There is some information out there that this in some respects may be due to hypovitaminosis of A (as retinol not beta carotene). The supplements we typically use in the US do not contain retinol due to the concern about a form of MBD in the herps and it appears that frogs may not efficiently convert beta carotene to retinol as was once believed.
> You may want to consider supplmenting at least several times a month with a source of retinol. This is relatively new progress in understanding frog husbandry.
> 
> Ed


So Ed are you suggesting using something like cod liver oil to supplement the frogs diet with retinol or is this available in a pill form etc from the local drug store?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

What the information is suggesting is supplementing with a source of retinol instead of only using beta carotene can resolve some of the issues we are seeing in a failure of the eggs to develop properly and possibly some issues of SLS. 

The source of retinol should have a ratio of retinol to D3 of 10:1.. 
Liquid sources are a possible source but need to be diluted (I forget the actual level off hand) and some anurans have shown skin issues when supplemented in this fashion. I can't remember the actual dosage level off hand so this should be approached in a conservative fashion as retinol is stored in the fat and liver and can be toxic when provided in excess. 

As a result, using a powdered pill or prepowdered supplements somewhere between weekly to several times a month may resolve the issue. 
Keep in mind that the information I am seeing is just getting out to my level so there may be greater clarity over time. 

I think I posted a reference to this under the food/feeding section of the forum a month or so ago. 

Ed


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## Yarak_Eric (Jan 8, 2009)

Ed said:


> What the information is suggesting is supplementing with a source of retinol instead of only using beta carotene can resolve some of the issues we are seeing in a failure of the eggs to develop properly and possibly some issues of SLS.
> 
> The source of retinol should have a ratio of retinol to D3 of 10:1..
> Liquid sources are a possible source but need to be diluted (I forget the actual level off hand) and some anurans have shown skin issues when supplemented in this fashion. I can't remember the actual dosage level off hand so this should be approached in a conservative fashion as retinol is stored in the fat and liver and can be toxic when provided in excess.
> ...


Where would they get the source of retinol from in wild settings?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some conversion of carotenoids (other carotenoids other than beta carotene can also be converted to retinol and they (no proof just thinking here) and potentially sources such as the photosensitive (rhodopsin isomers) pigments in the eyes of the invertebrates. 

One of the items we tend to overlook is the drain on the frogs by keeping them either continually reproductive or in condition to be continually reproductive in captivity. This can cause the frogs to utilize the reserves much more quickly than the frogs can metabolize or store more retinol. As a result we have to accomedate this problem in the frogs. 

In addition, if you are not supplementing the fruit fly media with carotenoids as well as keeping them in lighted area, the fruit flies may be deficient in rhodopsin isomers which willl contribute to the problem in the frogs. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As an alternative, if you can get a dusting supplement that contains retinol in the proper ratio, that is also a better alternative than attempting to create your own supplement. 

Ed


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## Rick H. (Feb 22, 2007)

Thanks for the great information Ed. Can you tell us off-hand some of the commercial supplements that have the 10:1 retinol:d3 ratio?

Rick


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Several years ago, there was an published independent analysis of the commonly available commercial supplements (which named them) and at that time, only one had the proper ratios and the ingredients claimed on the label (and that one is no longer being made). There has not been another analysis since that time as the various companies threatened lawsuits... if it was done again.... One of the most commonly used ones today, didn't have retinol (but did not claim to have retinol) but otherwise was fine (hint..hint). 

Some of the other supplements that are around today were not around at that time the analysis was performed and may contain the ratios claimed. 


Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

So..... Ed, uh, what supplements do you use?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Currently I use Dendrocare, Rep-Cal, Herpetivite and am going to add Repashy to the rotation as soon as I get a chance to order it. 

Ed


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