# Froggy First Aid Kit



## RGB

After reading through this section a bit, i've noticed that there are a lot of medicines that can be used to treat sick frogs (most of them i've never heard of). I will soon be getting frogs of my own and want to be prepared for some of the more common things that come up. I was hoping to set up a little "First Aid Kit" with medications that may not always be available when needed. This may even be nice to make sticky and refer new frog owners to, so that they can be ready to treat their frogs should they become ill.

So if all of the experienced keepers could chime in with what they suggest to keep on hand and maybe where to get those items, i think we could come up with a good resource for all PDF keepers.

Thanks


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## kyle1745

Agreed and done...


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## Jordan B

Here is a link to some of the best info out there concerning dart frog hobbyist medicine. You can get whatever meds you need from them. http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com/page3.htm


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## Dendro Dave

Yep great site, and a great frog breeder. Hope they decide to add that link to the breeders section, despite past issues he has had with this board and/or vise versa.


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## RGB

Jordan B said:


> Here is a link to some of the best info out there concerning dart frog hobbyist medicine. You can get whatever meds you need from them. http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com/page3.htm


Yeah, i've looked through Dr. Frye's page a few times and i agree it's a great source of info. The only problem is that there are several medications available from him and some are pretty expensive. I was hoping to get recommendations on which of these medicines are needed often by experienced keepers, therefore would be good to have on hand. I'm trying to avoid wasting a buch of money on medicines that will expire before i ever need them.


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## Jordan B

Panacur (Febendazole) is a great medicine to have on hand. It is safe to use and some people reccomend treating your collection routinely with it once every 1-2 weeks to keep worms under control. It is very easy to use, you just dust the flies with it.

Metronidazole would also be a good one to have on hand as it is useful in for a broad range of problems, from parasites to appetite to bacteria problems. 

Another good one to have around is the topical cream, as you could quickly apply it to any frog with a bump or scratch from shipping (or anything else) and head off a potentially serious infection. 

With liquid de-wormers, I would not get one of these unless reccomended after a fecal exam, as they kill all the worms and once. A bunch of dead worms inside the frog can lead to death from what is known as septic shock.

In terms of the 5% dextrose solution, it wouldn't hurt to have it on hand but I would not rank it more important than the other ones. If anyone else has experience in this area or wants to chime in that would be great, as I don't claim to be an expert in this area. Hope this helps!

Jordan


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## RGB

Thanks Jordan, that's exactly the type of info i was looking for. 

Do you know if those can be kept for long without going bad? I'm basically trying to figure out if it's best to keep a small amount and then re-order if you don't use it before expiration, or just order plenty if it won't go bad. 

Any others with thought or opinions please join in.


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## Jordan B

I'm not sure, sorry.


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## Dane

Panacur has a pretty long shelf life. Not sure the exact timeframe, but several months at least. Metronidazole is a little more short-lived, but you can lengthen its usefulness by keeping it out of the light, and possibly by refrigerating it.


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## Rain_Frog

you should have an expiration date on the package of panacur. Well, at least the local veterinarian put an expiration date on my panacur's package. Its expired now.


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## Ed

I would suggest calcium gluconate solution, small graduated cylinder for dilutions or a large 50-100 cc syringe for dilutions, feline clinicare, insulin syringe and a catheter for tube feeding. 

Scale that weighs to tenth of a gram for dosing if you are medicating the frogsyour self. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs

Just picked up a bottle of Calcium Gluconate 23% solution...500mL for $2.49!
Would it need to be diluted further?

I know it goes bad quick after you open it, does anyone know a good way to split it into smaller portions to preserve it?

I would imagine taking sterile syringes, filling them up with the sterile solution would be one way...

Is there any telltale signs the stuff goes bad? On the shelf there were bottles with yellow fluid in them and more clear ones...all have the same label, with an expiration date within a month of each other (about a year from now).

If it weren't for the fact that I found it an hour away from here, I wouldn't worry about it, as I spend more than that on coffee in the morning.
I would just like to be able to always have some on hand (I currently don't need to open it)


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## Ed

snip "Just picked up a bottle of Calcium Gluconate 23% solution...500mL for $2.49! Would it need to be diluted further"endsnip

Yes, dilute it down to about 2%. 

snip "I know it goes bad quick after you open it, does anyone know a good way to split it into smaller portions to preserve it? "endsip

I would suggest withdrawing only as much as you need with a sterile syringe. When we use it we only make a weeks worth at a time. The remainder of the bottle and the diluted solution are stored in the fridge. Discard the dilution after 1 week or when it becomes cloudy whichever comes first. The calciu, gluconate is discarded when it expires or become cloudy whichever comes first. 

There have been several discussions on this on the boards. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs

And what of the differing shades of yellow product that was on the shelf?


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## Ed

Without seeing the bottles, I cannot give you an answer. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs

http://www.geocities.com/inibico/updates.html

Scoll to the bottom of the page...a very nice chart is there.


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## Mikembo

Were can one get these medications? I had a frog get a bacterial infection I had to take it to the vet and it cost me a fortune (well worth it though!) but I would like to be able to treat my frogs at home and use the vet as a last resort.


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## Roadrunner

Another one to add for seizures is vit d liquicaps. I have a feeling that the ratio of d3 to calcium is insufficient or the vit d oxidizes rather rapidy. i`m wondering if adding powdered vit c to the calcium would get oxidized quiker than d and add a buffer to calcium supplements. I had a proven female escudo sieze the other day. She siezed when I scared her opening the tank. I pinned a vit d gelcap and put a drop on her back. I was worried it was too big a drop for such a small frog. She didn`t even scare when I went up to the tank the next day and hoped right to the top for food. I also found a good clutch of 5 eggs today.
It could`ve either been a shortage of calcium for forming such a large clutch and stopped when she had the energy back that she set aside for the eggs or the vit d gelcap worked well and quick for the seizures. Only one way to find out is to do it again. I rarely have seizing frogs though. 
Just another thing to try. 
Is it my perception being off or does the seizure things seem to happen in waves w/ different keepers at certain times? I`m wondering if the vit batches may get mixed up from time to time where they mark a batch w/ d3 when it`s actually strait calcium/outdoor mix w/out d3?


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Another one to add for seizures is vit d liquicaps. I have a feeling that the ratio of d3 to calcium is insufficient or the vit d oxidizes rather rapidy. i`m
> Just another thing to try.


Hi Aaron,

One needs to be careful with D3 as too much can do serious damage to the frog's liver and result in a number of symptoms from fluid retention to death... 




frogfarm said:


> Is it my perception being off or does the seizure things seem to happen in waves w/ different keepers at certain times? I`m wondering if the vit batches may get mixed up from time to time where they mark a batch w/ d3 when it`s actually strait calcium/outdoor mix w/out d3?



It is possible as there isn't any real regulation on supplements sold in the USA.. I need to get another copy of it as mine is missing a couple of pages but when the AZA Nutrition Taxon Advisory group analyzed the USA produced supplements only one herp supplement (no longer being made) actually contained everything that was advertised on the label. I understand after that there was a significant tightening of the quality control procedures for herp supplements but there was (as I understand it through second and third and fourth hand sources) also threats of law suits if they ever did that and published it again....


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## David M. Frye DVM

As a first aid kit, I strongly recommend having a few drugs on hand at all times. That way when a medical problem arises, you just need to contact me or another vet, and I/we can steer you down the right path. 

Metronidizole is an antibacterial, antiprotozoal, and appetite stimulant..

Silversulfadiazene is a topical antibiotic and antifungal that promotes healing while discouraging scarring. It should be used on ALL skin lesions.

Baytril is a strong systemic a strong antibiotic that needs to be mixed carefully. 

Panacur is a powdered de-wormer. It is very safe and easy to use.

These are by far the most used drugs I see in this hobby other than Calcium Gluconate.

David M. Frye, DVM
Milan Area Animal Hospital


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## choco

Where is a good place to purchase these medicines? Is there one site or place that carries (preferably all) Metronidizole, Silversulfadiazene, Baytril, Panacur, Calcium Gluconate that you would recommend? Thanks!


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## Mikembo

Dr. Frye will help you with the basic medications you need beside cacium gluconate (I could be wrong). it will rum a little over $100 for the basic meds. here is the link to Dr. Frye:
Frye Brothers' Frogs



choco said:


> Where is a good place to purchase these medicines? Is there one site or place that carries (preferably all) Metronidizole, Silversulfadiazene, Baytril, Panacur, Calcium Gluconate that you would recommend? Thanks!


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## kristy55303

dr. frye has calc gluc. on the bottle he will prescibe to call in the event it is needed i believe for proper dosing
panacur, metronidazole, ssd ointment, i also am fond of neopolydex ointment as it also has steroidal properties for hard to cure wounds, baytril is good, and i personally have ivermectin i believe just in case but have never had to use it. I suggest syringes, boston round droppers and amphibian ringers solution is great. I purchase that at carolina biological. It says you ahve to be a school or business etc, but i had it shipped to me without any issues. kristy


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## gillenws

anyone able to post what concentration metronidazole is used?


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## frogparty

no molarity given on my bag, just 1 drop for thumbs/pumilio 2 for tinc sized frogs


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## Kaben

what concentration of Silversulfadiazene should we be using on our frogs?

I see 1% for sale mostly via google searches


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## Kudaria

Several of these, such as Metronidizole are available from Seachem for fishes. Pancur (sp?) is also used to treat worms in fishes as well. It's nice to know that some of the things I learned for fish will translate over...though dosing is a bit different I suspect.

If I had to guess as to a dosage I'd dilute down to the recommended aquarium dosage and spray that on the frog. Mind you that's just a very uninformed guess.


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## Rick2339

Thanks, that's exactly the type of info i was looking for.


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## Ed

Kudaria said:


> Several of these, such as Metronidizole are available from Seachem for fishes. Pancur (sp?) is also used to treat worms in fishes as well. It's nice to know that some of the things I learned for fish will translate over...though dosing is a bit different I suspect.
> 
> If I had to guess as to a dosage I'd dilute down to the recommended aquarium dosage and spray that on the frog. Mind you that's just a very uninformed guess.


Much better if it is dosed orally. Metronidazole has some absorbtion issues that indicate that topically isn't the best method of dosage. See the discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...d-things-i-dont-know-right-5.html#post1722057 for some reasons. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S

Ed, do you have any opinion about the home test for Cytrid?


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## Ed

Judy S said:


> Ed, do you have any opinion about the home test for Cytrid?


Are you referring people swabbing their frogs and sending it off for testing? It's pretty easy to swab the frogs once you have them in hand. 

If that is the case then the lab can make a huge difference some labs do have a higher incidence of false positives and that means retests need to be made to actually confirm the results. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## dam630

The website info for Dr. Frye is out of date.
Is there any chance this can be updated or post a link to his new site?


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## Imperialterrib

So first off you need panacur which you can get on the Zoomed website and for chytrid you will need Lamisil spray which is easy or itraconazal even though Lamisil is the healthiest option and then Metronidazole parasites that can cause ranavirus.


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## Ed

Imperialterrib said:


> So first off you need panacur which you can get on the Zoomed website and for chytrid you will need Lamisil spray which is easy or itraconazal even though Lamisil is the healthiest option and then Metronidazole parasites that can cause ranavirus.


Okay this is confusing. Are you saying that metronidazole is for the parasites that cause ranavirus? If that is the case then it is really incorrect. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Keister

Ok so I have completely read this thread and have tried to visit Dr. Frye's website and the website is no longer available. So is there anyway that we can update this thread with current sources to find these medications and with a new comprehensive list of new medicines, their dilutions (for those that need it), and their uses because it seems like the few posts from 2014 are mentioning new medications that weren't talked about in 2009. I just want to have a source available with up to date information if that is possible? I also would like to know what meds should be used to dose regularly, every week or every other week, and what should only be used when necessary? Thank you all in advance for any and all help!


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## Judy S

since he seems to be hooked up with Dart Den (Philsuma from DB--)...maybe more information may be available...please let us know what you find out...


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## Jjl

Keister said:


> So is there anyway that we can update this thread with current sources to find these medications and with a new comprehensive list of new medicines, their dilutions (for those that need it),


I'm new to frogs, but having come from a reptile background, I was always told that vets shouldn't give out dosing information (including dilutions). Is this not the case here? Someone, please enlighten me.


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## Ed

Jjl said:


> I'm new to frogs, but having come from a reptile background, I was always told that vets shouldn't give out dosing information (including dilutions). Is this not the case here? Someone, please enlighten me.


Vets can give out dosages as they are licensed to practice medicine but there is always a risk of a lawsuit by an unhappy customer. It is the hobbyists who diagnose and suggest treatments and dosages that can actually get in trouble it a complaint is filed or they are sued. In a number of states you can dose and treat your own personal animals but most of the effective medications aren't going to be available to the hobbyists as they require a prescription. 
Much of the advice above is crisis management until the person can consult with a veterinarian. Some of it was also provided by a vet. 


Perhaps the best way to get the dosage information is to go to the literature via google scholar or a college library search engine and purchase the literature themselves or they can purchase texts like Reptile Medicine and Surgery, 2nd addition which has an updated chapter on amphibians. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## waynowon

Ed said:


> It is the hobbyists who diagnose and suggest treatments and dosages that can actually get in trouble it a complaint is filed or they are sued.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


can you give me an example? i have done endless research and can't find a case of a hobbyist being sued by another hobbyist, for incorrect dosing or any treatment, experimental or common medical practice. What trouble would they be in? this is a step away from you previous assertion that a hobbyist could be sued for medical malpractice.


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## Auri

Maybe I can clarify a bit here. Diagnosing disease and recommending a course of treatment is, essentially, practicing veterinary medicine. In order to do this legally, there are rules.

For starters, you must be a licensed veterinarian. You must hold a license in the state or states where you are practicing. And, most limiting, you have to have a valid veterinary/client/patient relationship. The exact terms of the VCPR are going to vary slightly from state to state, but it basically means you must have actually examined the patient in question recently enough to be up to date on that patient's current medical status, and you have to be in communication with the owner of that patient. 

So assuming I am a veterinarian in Colorado*, and I diagnose a disease and give treatment instructions to a person in Texas regarding a frog I have never seen, I am breaking the law. Of course I can be sued if things go wrong. I can also be reported to the state veterinary board, who just might decide to revoke my license, aka "the thing that lets me make a living."

If I'm not a vet, I diagnose illness and tell you how to treat it and things go wrong, you're also welcome to sue me. Unless I'm actually charging money for my advice, I'll probably manage to weasel out of a charge for practicing veterinary medicine without a license, but you might get me for monetary damages. Since I don't have a veterinary license in the first place, that can't be taken away from me. It likely won't be a huge deal, probably no one outside the case cares and it won't be widely reported. So you might not hear about it. That doesn't mean you can't get in trouble for it. 

You can, however, treat your own pets. It's not illegal (as long as you're not doing anything batshit crazy that falls under animal cruelty), but it's often not advisable. Certainly, it's good to educate yourself, and Ed has several times pointed people towards the excellent Mader text. You will also find that if you spend the time and money to develop a working relationship with an exotic animal veterinarian, they will be a good source of general advice, and likely willing to do a lot of legwork and research on your behalf even if they can't just prescribe something over the phone for an animal they've never seen. As Ed also mentioned earlier, veterinarians have access to resources such as information, drugs, and supplies that aren't readily available to the general public, but there are rules regarding how they can use these things.


*You may correctly assume this. You may also assume that I will not be diagnosing anything online or recommending treatments, but I will gladly see Colorado hobbyists in person and geek out about your frogs and/or other creatures.


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## outdoorphunk

Does anyone have an archived version of the Dr. Frye's site? Seems to be offline.


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## Socratic Monologue

Good way to start is to use the Wayback Machine:

https://archive.org/web/

Plug in the URL of the site you want to view in the search field.


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## Kmc

The most useful tools I have, are a collection of bulb tipped dosing needles. They impart precision and control in administering meds and nutritional support. 
A 20 ga has a 2 mm tip. The polished olive bulb is designed for atraumatic tissue contact, in a light hand. I have not used one on a dart but have on many FBTs.


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## Kmc

There are tricks to the trade in using caths, cannulas, dosing needles, and food slurry composites, whole food parts, and implements. 
Viscosity and clumping particulates relating to gauge factors and fluid mechanics, make delivery successful, or not. Duration of manipulation, ease of insertion, non traumatic mouth manipulation, are arts that cant be taught out of hand but can be described in full detail to the Interested. 

Understanding these, in depth, beyond specious internet statements, can save even the tiniest lives.


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## Ravage

The aforementioned equipment And:A set of snake sexing probes. That and a bit of prep. H can end a prolapse stat. This is more often necessary when dealing with growing tree frogs. Having it before you need it is the key. And an essential part of my frog surgi-kit. 
I have once sutured to cure a prolapse as well, and if you are confident and can find sutures, they could potentially save lives.
Topical anesthetics can be fatal to amphibians, which is something to consider if you ever have to humanely euthanize. Benzocaine and Lidocaine. Grim subject, but also something to have before you need it.


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## Kmc

Loupe glasses. Magnification is Power. 

I have 2 pairs, both inexpensive. I have always wanted to get a really nice set but even these have helped me see detail I would not otherwise while using my hands.

Easy to break the small articulated leds on the cheap ones but they get the job done.


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## cwebster

Our vet prescribes cipro eye drops, to be used topically on frogs back. We try to keep that on hand.


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