# Other (Larger) Fly Species



## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

I work in a USDA lab where I raise several species of flies for research. Mainly house flies, stable flies and dump flies (ophyra). 

These are definitely much larger flies than what is recommended for the smaller species of PDF's. But, for a few of the larger species I've read that half-grown crickets are a food possibility. These flies would be smaller than that size of a cricket. 

*Has anyone used these types of flies before? *

Since I will probably start out with D. azureus, I've read they like small food even though they are larger, these sources wouldn't be a good match for that species. But it would be awesome if I'd be able to find a PDF use for my free and unlimited source of flies!


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

Hi Linday,

Phyllobates take larger insects. Especially the larger ones like terribilis.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

The catch for most people is that they must be flightless. They don't need to be flightless for the frogs, but for the owners  . Are the species you listed flightless or have flightless mutations? I know people have used house flies, but haven't heard of the others


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

No, none of the species I currently work with are flightless. Though, the Ophyra (dump fly), which is the smallest of the flies I work with prefers to walk rather than fly. House flies are the largest species I work with, though I have access to some flies that are about as large as most froglets, lol! 

So the flightless aspect is a human preference rather than a frog preference?


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## gotham229 (Dec 30, 2006)

I currentley work with olive fruit flies and they are about 3/16 of an inch. I also have been wondering about using them as food for my froggies, but they need olives :shock: in order to lay there egss.  .
-Jon


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

Since I work with my flies every day, I was just thinking of bringing home extras to feed to the frogs. That way I don't have to have my own culture of them at my house. 

Could you do the same with your olive fruit flies?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

clarzoo said:


> So the flightless aspect is a human preference rather than a frog preference?


Exactly. Some people seem to think that fliers are better for the frogs, but I haven't seen any empirical data on it just that people have said it. At any rate, if you have the access and don't mind the risk of a flier getting out give em a whirl...

Coincidentally, since you said that you work with these flies for a living, I was wondering what kind of culturing conditions you use to produce houseflies? Is it the standard garbage pile or do you use a particualr media? A good low smell housefly media could be very useful...


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

Ah, ok. Good to know fliers wouldn't be a problem for the frogs. I've gotten used to dealing with the flies. We use CO2 to knock ours down- but a minute or two in the freezer does the trick, too. I'd imagine that would keep them down long enough to transfer them to the viv. 


Yes, we use a fly media. There are several recipes, but the scientists I work with have developed a formula that out local feed mill creates for us. The larvae pupate in the media (mostly bran and corn based) and then feed from a mixture of dried ground corn, powdered milk and sugar as adults. No garbage piles, lol!! And no smell! Though, another person in the facility is just starting to work with a type of fly that grows in decaying flesh (think CSI tv shows) and grows them out on cow livers and chicken backs. Talk about gross!


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

That sounds awesome! If there is any way that you can get the recipe for the "low smell" housefly media, you would do the hobby a great service. There have been many an attempt to find a low smell culturing media, but most have only been moderately tolerable. I would love to try it if you can manage to get the recipe!


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

Alright, I'll see if I can get the recipe. The only noticeable smell is from the ammonia the larvae themselves produce. It is fairly minor. But I think that smell would remain regardless of the media. Of course, I grow 10-20,000 per tray with about 50 trays going at any given time! Maybe the smell would be negligible for the amount the average hobbyist would need.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> That sounds awesome! If there is any way that you can get the recipe for the "low smell" housefly media, you would do the hobby a great service.


I'll second that!! A grain based recipe for house fly culturing would take the cake.  

I love feeding my frogs flying things. Wax moths, for example, make for some excellent entertainment.  

EricG.NH


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The emphasis on flightless has a lot to do with the keeper as well as not wasting a food source... much of the hobby use top opening tanks, and its a bit hard and a bit of a waste to try and "dump" houseflies in a tank where they will just turn around and fly back out the top of the tank! UGH.

I've fed houseflies to various critters (of the amphibian and reptile variety) with great success - even with fliers - when they are in front opening tanks. The fliers fly up and to the lights, and only a couple may come back out the door. Small anoles, arboreal geckos, and small, active anurans relish the larger flies. Flightless forms are even easier for them to catch, and allow the keeper to feed them to a broader range of critters... such as the less active guys who like their food to skitter past them (a flier would just fly away). Unfortunately, there are only two strains in the hobby... a curled-wing nearly blind strain from europe (in which you still get some fliers... you just open the container outside, let the fliers fly away, and use the super deformed ones to culture) and the strain AZDR produced that was supposed to be more stable... but they only released it once 

Poison frog wise, these species are really only good for the species that prefer large feeder insects... the larger phyllobates species (I regularly feed my bicolor houseflies), allobates, and epipedobates species. Dendrobates species prefer and need the small FF species.

There are some less smell medias out there... I got mine from a european supplier... then promptly killed my culture of Ter flies. Ugh. I really need to get some more houseflies... guess it's time for me to look for a bulk pupae supplier!


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> The emphasis on flightless has a lot to do with the keeper as well as not wasting a food source... much of the hobby use top opening tanks, and its a bit hard and a bit of a waste to try and "dump" houseflies in a tank where they will just turn around and fly back out the top of the tank! UGH.


Yes, I definitely understand how the flying aspect of these guys could be annoying. (You're talking to the lady who accidently let several hundred flies loose one time!) Since I work with these flies on a regular basis, sexing and counting them, I work with them 'knocked out'. Like I said before, I use CO2, but in a pinch, I'll put the flies in the freezer for a minute or two. This would slow them down long enough to dump them in a tank without them flying back out. But that doesn't mean any not eaten won't attempt to fly out the next time you open the tank! 


I'm at work now... I'll try and find the ingredients for the fly media.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm thinking that grain fed housefly maggots would be a big hit as well!!
Yummm. 


EricG.NH


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

> I'm thinking that grain fed housefly maggots would be a big hit as well!!
> Yummm.


This was my next question! Would fly larvae be an ok food source for PDF's? Or are they more of an occasional snack. I was thinking using the larvae for the species that prefer smaller prey items, and using the adults for those that like larger prey. 


I've got the feed tag from one of our bags of fly media- I'll type it up a little later.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

FF larvae are GREAT for PDFs, it's like having two feeders in one! In some species (anthonyi, tricolor, and mantellas come to mind) feeding adult FF diets alone seems to reduce breeding and egg quality... feed more larvae and you've got less problems 

I've not fed the species talked about here, but I imagine if they are the right size they might be eaten. Pheonix worms, after all, are black solider fly larvae, FF larvae is taken pretty readily, and there are a number of other larvae/caterpillars of similar consistancy that we use...


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

That's great to know! Thanks!


Ok, here's the feed tag info:

F-R-M
Fly Feed

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein, Min......6.50%
Crude Fat, Min............1.00%
Crude Fiber, Max........8.00%

Ingredients:
Wheat Bran, Alfalfa Meal and Corn Meal

Manufactured by: 
Flint River Mills, Inc.
Bainbridge, GA 39817


The label calls it fly feed, but we use it as the media that the larvae grow in. I will get the exact recipe for the diet we feed them soon- but the ingredients are ground corn, powdered milk and sugar.

Since it is made by a well known (at least well-known in the south east US) feed company, F-R-M, it may be possible to have your local feed company get this product in for you. I am not 100% sure about that, since it is a USDA created formula, and they may have some aggreement with the feed company. 


I don't have the ratios of the ingredients, yet. I will try to get them next week. By looking at the food- it appears to be mostly wheat bran. The way we raise the house flies would be difficult for the average person to replicate. But, the way I raise my Ophyra colony would be pretty simple for someone to do at home, and you would get manageable numbers. That method would definitely work for house flies, too.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

So that actually looks pretty simple, but it sounds to me like you are raising them in two separate containers for lack of a better word? Do you start with larva and place them on this feed and then feed the adult flies the powdered sugar/sugar/corn diet once they are fliers? Just trying to figure out if you start with flies just like we do with friutflies to start a culture or if you have access to the larva to start the culture. Obviously I am assuming that the larva media is wet down to a applesaucy consistency as well as the fly media. Sorry for so many questions, but you may have inadvertantly stumbled onto a great discovery!


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't mind questions at all!


Yes, the larger fly species we raise are all done in two 'steps'. The tray for the larvae(1) and the cage for the adults(2). 

As far as whether you need larvae or adult flies to start a culture, it's kind of like the chicken or the egg question? Which comes first?! When we are sending flies from our colony to others, we send them when they are in the pupae stage. They are hardy, don't need any special packaging and take up little room.

Here's a basic breakdown of the way we maintain our colonies:

1- Take clean and dried pupae and place them in a clean cage with a source of water (sugar water for house flies) and a source of food (ground corn, powdered milk and sugar mixture, no water). 
2- After pupae hatch, let them mature for 2-3 days then place an egg cup in the adult's cage. An egg cup is a moist piece of dark cloth that stimulates them to lay their eggs.
3- Make a tray of media + water (it is not nearly as wet as applesauce in consistency- there shouldn't be any standing water)
4- Add collected eggs to media tray and cover with a breathable cloth.
5- It takes around 10-14 days for eggs to turn into pupae depending on temp. When all larvae have pupated, they come to the surface of the media tray and are easy to collect.
6- Repeat!!!!!!!

This method could be easily tweaked to work on a small level. There is one species of fly I keep on a very small scale. I put a jar of media directly in the adults cage for them to lay their eggs in. I let the larvae pupate in this container and when they begin to hatch I place the jar right into a clean cage. That would cut down on most of the steps- making it easier for the average hobbyist. 

I hope that answered all of your questions, if not- I'd be glad to clarify anything. Maybe I can try to take pictures of the steps to make them easier to understand. I'll have to ask my boss if I can do that, lol! I don't want to get into trouble for sharing insider info, :lol:


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

To solve part of the flying problem for houseflies couldn't you just put the housefly pupae in a feeding bowl in the tank? That way, when the flies emerge they will get eaten pretty quickly. 

It would feed weird, though, to feed "dung flies" to a dart frog!


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

Yes, that could work, just put the pupae directly in the cage. 


Technically, house flies are considered filth flies- they don't need manure to complete their life cycle. There are some species that do. Sorry to be a nerdy fly person, lol!! :roll:


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I'm trying to think of ways to temporarily inhibit their ability to fly. If these flies were dusted with vitamins or sprayed with water so their wings were damp would they be able to fly?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I got a better idea, why not just get a curly winged flightless variety of housefly and not have to worry about it? Before you say "That would be nice if it were possible".... it is...


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

How do they develop these mutations anyway? I heard it is from exposing them to radiation. In that case maybe try that with houseflies andthe other species in hopes of getting a mutant true flightless/wingless strain.

I've had a few houseflies develop on fruit like FF's outside. Am I correct in guessing that at least in the wild housefly larvae feed mainly on the bacteria in the decaying material they are in.


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

*Dendrobait-* As far as I understand the process, the house fly larvae digest the actual material that they are living in. 

We do some irradiation on our flies- but I don't think they breed from the ones that have been irradiated. At least I know we don't have any known mutations in our colony and our house fly colony is over 30 years old. Many mutations are just spontaneous. Most of these mutations are detrimental to a population, so they are not incoorporated into the genetic pool. (I.e.- A fly may be born flightless by random mutation, but flightless wouldn't survive to reproduce in the wild) Humans can interrupt that process my manually selecting for the trait displayed in a mutation if it is inheritable. 

*Defaced-* How long are you wanting to 'temporarily inhibit their ability to fly'. If it is just for a few minutes, long enough to gather the flies and throw them in the viv/cage- the freezer method is very effective. I use it often at my work.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I am really not sure how they create the strains other than possibly doing selective breeding of "mutations".


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Pull the wings off, duh guys. Lamarck anyone? :lol:

From what my biology teacher told me, it is possible to manipulate the embryonic chromosomes to produce a genetic variant with mutated or absent wings. Would be ridiculously expensive and not very feasible I would imagine :? Unless you got some kind of genetic sequence made to insert into an embryo that inhibits the formation of wings as it pupates.

Anyone know more about this than me, I'm a genetic n00b :roll:


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Yes, just a few minutes to get them into the tank and give the frogs an opportunity to eat the majority of them. Also with the moisture possibility, we could mist the tank to get them back onto the ground for the frogs to eat them.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Sticking them in the fridge always works for me. I also have had luck with putting the chilled flies in a feed bowl... as they start moving, the frogs nab them up... often not leaving any to get up and fly around! But for entertainment value, I like just letting some pupae hatch in the tank  Just not a good idea in a top opening tank that you need to get into before all of them are eaten...

A note on the use of radiation on flies... this is how pretty much all the FF mutations that we use have been developed. This is also why there is a range in stability of the traits... some can revert back to their original states quickly and easily with certain conditions.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Oh fine, I'll just get some of the curly winged terfly so we can stop talking about try to run irradiation experiments on our flies :lol: . I'll let you know when I have em.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I used this thread a bit to guide the direction of the housefly article I just wrote... read it here. 

Stace, put me in for a couple cultures next order  Until then, I guess I need to find a place to bulk order some pupae for cheap.


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

Has anyone checked into curly wing house flies? Not sure if that is the UK fly you guys are referring to.

http://www.jangala.co.uk/Curly%20winged ... ebpage.htm


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Oooooooo really good link!

And yes, it should be the same thing... tho I understand the fliers are possibly a bit more common than that article seems to imply. And it wasn't a UK fly, it was the European fly... it's used all over Europe.


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

Sorry my mistake.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

No worries, there are a couple different lables they've been tossed around as... 'terfly' is one, 'curly wing' is another... i'm not as inclined to call them curlies since the AZDR stock was called curlies, and I don't believe they are the same strain. Dartfrog.co.uk has a good description that links the two commonly used names together (which is how I figured it out) calling them the terflies that have the curly wings and nearly blind (which is how the terflies are described).


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

God in his wisdom 
Invented the fly
And then forgot 
To tell us why.

Ogden Nash


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I have some soldier flies that I grew from the extra small phoenix worms, they are around an inch long.
Didn't think they'd come through, but they did!
Grew up on sweet potato and high grade fish food.
I'll try to get some pics...


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## clarzoo (Jun 19, 2007)

That's a pretty good description of how I raise the house flies at work (except I do it on a larger scale). He doesn't specify the recipe for the media he uses to grow out the larvae- but it looks a bit different than the bran mixture. Nice pictures in that article!

Patty- love the poem.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

LOL, of course he's not going to say what it is, he was selling it on his site


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## argus411 (Feb 17, 2004)

Any updates on this??


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Never got more Terflies to test the set up with. I've just bought larvae of standard fliers from grubco and been feeding them out, plan to eventually play with the terflies again when I can get more imported.


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