# Shipping Frogs (warning graphic dead frog pictures)



## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

I received a package of frogs that were shipped to me today. I don't want to name the party who shipped the frogs as this post is not really about bashing an individual but more about a training lesson for people who mail out frogs. The frogs were placed in an insulated card board box with newspaper around the 4X2 inch deli cup. The cup had holes in it which were very smooth and nothing about it was potentially dangerous. But the shipper chose to pack the deli cup with cuttlings that had very thin strands of roots coming off of them. One of the frogs got his legs and lower body caught in the vines and then as he stuggled to get free it proceeded to wrap around the frogs lower body pretty tight and it eventually killed him. Please be careful about what you put in with the frogs in the deli cup. Wet paper towels can fall on top of the frogs and smother them. Different people use different size deli cups and different things in the cup. Perhaps those that ship frog regularly can share with others what ways they have found is the best way to ensure a live arrival. Again, this thread is just meant to raise awareness so that this kind of thing doesn't happen to other frogs.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

That is so sad! What kind of frog was it?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

the picture is of a 'varadero' ranitomeya imitator

james


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

That sucks. I hope he/she is going to make it right. 
While I wouldn't say I ship frogs regularly, here is what I do. I use the smallest size, 2 oz deli cup. Consider the impact of hitting the side if you shake a small, 2 oz cup, as opposed to hitting the side of a larger container. The bigger the container, the harder the impact. I deal with thumbnails so a bigger frog like an adult Tinc would need a larger cup. Each frog gets his/her own cup.
Air holes should be poked from the inside out so there are no sharp edges inside the cup. I used to think that melting holes in the cup with a hot needle was enough to eliminate sharp edges, but I have run my fingers over the holes and found that they are smoother when done from the inside out.
I use sphagnum and a live leaf or two to pack inside the cup. Others have said sphagnum can be dangerous but it has always worked for me. I use sphagnum, because, as pointed out, a wet paper towel can smother your frog when turned upside down in shipping. I have considered trying balled up pieces of damp paper towel which should prevent this. The leaf I include just helps to create sort of a cave to keep him from being smothered. I had not considered the danger of fine roots so thanks for posting this. Here is another thread discussing pros and cons of packing in sphagnum, paper towels, and live leaves. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/70688-why-sphagnum-moss-ship.html
I tape the lid on so it can't be shaken loose.
From here, they would go into a well padded (with newspaper), insulated box with 4 phase 22 paks. Here are a couple of good links concerning the use of phase 22 paks.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66509-shipping-phase-panels-example.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/69949-phase-praise.html
Be careful using styrofoam peanuts for packing with as so many of them are biodegradable. Get them wet and they shrink down to nothing almost instantly. Then you are left with no padding and they have a much rougher ride.
That's my 2 cents on shipping.


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## dendrobates (May 11, 2009)

That is just really bad luck. I have seen frogs flip out when something restricts their movement. However, if the seller guaranteed live arrival I would say he or she should replace the frogs. Sorry for your loss.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Oh my, I may never be able to get those images out of my head...


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

dendrobates said:


> That is just really bad luck. I have seen frogs flip out when something restricts their movement. However, if the seller guaranteed live arrival I would say he or she should replace the frogs. Sorry for your loss.


Yes we all need to consider things that can happen with what we put in the deli cup with the frog. The deal or guarantee is not really the point of this post. I just wanted to show people so that something like this can be avoided in the future. It's sad when we lose any frog. I just want anyone who reads this that ships frogs to think about lose strands on cutlings or anything that could be potentially be hazzardous to a frog that is moving around the cup.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I'd call it a freak accident before bad packing, I prefer single leaf clippings but Ive used pieces of vines of many plants as have many others with no issues like this, STill it wouldnt be a bad idea to clip the feeler roots off now that this has happened. As for container size I prefer to ship cfroglet clutches together in 16-24oz cups with plant leaves and vines inside but thats me, I havent had issues with it.


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

The thicker vines wasn't the problem...it was the thin soft feeler roots. Those should be pulled off before being put in the cup. They even stick to your fingers so they would easily stick to a frog that is passing by.


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## Zoomie (Jul 3, 2011)

First, sorry for both the buyer and seller. It takes a very exciting time, and turns it in to a traumatic event.

I would like to thank the OP for posting what had to be a difficult day. In a strange way, I am grateful for these kinds of posts. They bring potential issues to light that are usually learned the hard way, by living them.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I had this happen to a frog in viv, luckily I was able to save the leg and the frog at the time......Thanks for posting this really is something to think about, the only time I shipped I used a mix of small and large Pothos leaves cut short(little stem) in the 2oz deli cups. 

I also added some sand live oak leaves with the odd shapes and cupping that they have from the holding viv they were in. Ended up with a bunch of crawl spaces and the larger Pothos leaves mixed with the smaller ones held everything together....If I ever use plants with the thin feeler roots I will be sure to clip them off for sure.....Excellent post.

I still get nervous when shipping....Used to ship a lot of corals and wouldn't relax till they were delivered.....I find frogs to be the same feeling if not worse....


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I've seen two really bad packing jobs in the past year. Fortunately, I didn't lose any frogs, but I could have. The worst part is that both transactions were with experienced dart froggers. For my part, I don't mind paying to have the frogs packed with Phase 22 panels or gel packs. I ship with them and either ask for a deposit until they mail them back, or sell them to the buyer for what I paid for them.

The only thing I would add to the methods described above is the importance of squeezing excess water out of any substrate included, such as sphagnum. Soaked sphagnum can pin a frog down as easily as paper towel if there is more than a strand or two and it's saturated.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Good point Jim, I do squeeze the excess water out of the sphagnum.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

If I were to ship frogs, I would ship with a thin (1/4 inch layer to 3/4 in layer) of long fibered sphagnum, topped with leaf litter (The leaf litter I collect around here is very curled up and could easily protect the frog if tumbling happens), and would add some pothos leaves (cut a little below the leaf, no long stems to worry about) but I would avoid things like wandering jew and certainly ficus pumila. Then put in a styro cooler with some phase 22 paks and surrounded with packing peanuts, and then packing paper outside of the cooler. I'm hearing that packing peanuts shrink in water? I'll have to test that out, or just pre shrink them and add more until full. I've heard styro dissolves into plastic in acid, but not water.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Doug, 

You certainly were not one of the people I am refering to. In fact, your packing job for the bugs I bought was far better than most frog packing jobs. You are without a doubt one of the best at packing live stuff for shipping.



Pumilo said:


> Good point Jim, I do squeeze the excess water out of the sphagnum.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

It's best to use as little substrate as you can while giving the frog some security and high humidity. I have a friend that used to work at UPS and tumbling, dropping and tossing all occur, regardless of how many FRAGILE or THIS END UP stickers are on the box. I pack all my boxes under the assumption that it will be tossed around and beat up pretty good during shipping regardless of which shipper I use.

Regarding the packing peanuts, they don't expand or shrink based on the amount of moisture. Styrofoam cannot absorb water. Also, I don't think acid will affect it, but gasoline, paint thinner, mineral spirits or any other solvent will melt it really fast. I watched a guy try to put gas in his lawn mower with a styrofoam cup. It melted through before he could fill it and lift it up to the gas tank.



Neontra said:


> If I were to ship frogs, I would ship with a thin (1/4 inch layer to 3/4 in layer) of long fibered sphagnum, topped with leaf litter (The leaf litter I collect around here is very curled up and could easily protect the frog if tumbling happens), and would add some pothos leaves (cut a little below the leaf, no long stems to worry about) but I would avoid things like wandering jew and certainly ficus pumila. Then put in a styro cooler with some phase 22 paks and surrounded with packing peanuts, and then packing paper outside of the cooler. I'm hearing that packing peanuts shrink in water? I'll have to test that out, or just pre shrink them and add more until full. I've heard styro dissolves into plastic in acid, but not water.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

some packing peanuts are made of cellulose, its part of the ever growing green movement. they look just like regular packing peanuts, but have a slightly softer feel. these will dissolve in water or shrink if exposed to moisture.

Dissolving a Cellulose Packing Peanut in Water

there are many ways to ship. i personally wouldnt use leaf litter, but thats just me. i think paper towels are fine (if secured properly) and i see NO issue with pothos stems. i like them since they tend to add more structure. i always test the container by shaking it vigorously to ensure no movement occurs. (obviously without the animal in it)

james


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

james67 said:


> some packing peanuts are made of cellulose, its part of the ever growing green movement.


I didn't know that. You learn something new every day. Heck, I learn something new every day on DB.



james67 said:


> i always test the container by shaking it vigorously to ensure no movement occurs. (obviously without the animal in it)


Think of the trauma that the pothos leaf goes through


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

When I ship frogs I use the 2oz Dixie cups for thumnails and a "no name" brand 16oz cup that you can buy in bulk at Costco for larger frogs. Like previously mentioned I poke holes from the inside out to keep from creating sharp edges. I use no sphag or paper towels as I have recieved crushed frogs in the past, instead I use several broad leaved plants like pothos and some smaller stuff like Wandering jew. I dont pack the cup, but I add quite a bit of plants to make more surface area and decrease the amount of sloshing around that could potentially happen during transit. I mist heavy just before adding the frogs and (knock on wood) have never had an issue. The tip about not having smaller roots is something I have never thought about but I will make sure I trim up before shipping in the future.. Cant be too careful! Thanks for the tip!


Chris


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

bshmerlie said:


> The thicker vines wasn't the problem...it was the thin soft feeler roots. Those should be pulled off before being put in the cup. They even stick to your fingers so they would easily stick to a frog that is passing by.


How can you be sure the frog didn't die from something else and the roots tangled around the dead frog? These guys are very nimble and I just don't see something like this happening very easily. Not saying that isn't what happened. I'm just saying, "what if"


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Azurel said:


> I had this happen to a frog in viv, luckily I was able to save the leg and the frog at the time......Thanks for posting this really is something to think about, the only time I shipped I used a mix of small and large Pothos leaves cut short(little stem) in the 2oz deli cups.
> 
> I also added some sand live oak leaves with the odd shapes and cupping that they have from the holding viv they were in. Ended up with a bunch of crawl spaces and the larger Pothos leaves mixed with the smaller ones held everything together....If I ever use plants with the thin feeler roots I will be sure to clip them off for sure.....Excellent post.
> 
> I still get nervous when shipping....Used to ship a lot of corals and wouldn't relax till they were delivered.....I find frogs to be the same feeling if not worse....





josh_r said:


> How can you be sure the frog didn't die from something else and the roots tangled around the dead frog? These guys are very nimble and I just don't see something like this happening very easily. Not saying that isn't what happened. I'm just saying, "what if"


I remember Azurel's post when this happened to one of his frogs. In fact, here is the post. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/63966-serious-situation-one-my-varaderos.html This happened in a stationary viv.
Bshmerlie is pointing out the danger of it happening in a box that is being tossed, dropped, and tumbled in shipping. I don't think our frogs are nearly as nimble as you state, under these conditions.
Seems like a danger that shouldn't be dismissed to me.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I do agree that with the possibility of their movements not of their own making due to shipping it could very well be the possibility that the roots pose a danger to them. If it can happen in a static situation there is in my opinion possibly be a higher risk of it happening with all the things that go on with boxes being handled by people who could care less(not all).....Better just to be safe and take 30 seconds and clip the roots....Then there is no worry of this type of instance happening....Better safe then sorry.


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

The thin roots were wrapped around him very tightly. The first picture shows it the best if you zoom in. And this is with me already making an attempt to get it off the frog. It was tighter when I found him and it was stuck to a thicker vine. The only reason I wanted people to see this thread is that we all send frogs through the mail all the time. If everyone can just take a couple of minutes and make sure the cuttlings don't have these hair like roots on the stems we might be able to prevent this from happening to another frog down the road. I appreciate everyones input on how they send their frogs. I personally have found this thread very informative. It also makes me think about some of my overgrown tanks with some froglets in them. I am now more aware of the potential problem. 

Side note: The shipper has never responded to my email with pictures that I sent him of the dead frog the morning that I received the frogs. Not everyone cares what happens to the frogs after they are sent out. I am glad that you guys do care and are looking for ways to improve how you ship frogs to ensure they arrrive at their destinations safely.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Perhaps you could give us a hint who the shipper is? An informed purchase is a good purchase and that should apply to customer service as well.


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