# Mixing frogs



## dodderken (Jun 24, 2008)

At the moment i have a big tank with 4 D. variabilis in it. (dont know the measurements in your system but in centimeters it is 50width, 40deep and 70high)
Now i was wondering what types of frogs i ca get to fill the tank up a little more.
I know there are people who dont like mixing frogs, but i think if the tank is big enough it should work.


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## brettlt (Oct 5, 2006)

For those of us on this side of the pond, your tank is about 37 gallons. With dimensions in inches of 20W X 15.75 Deep X 27.5 tall.

This is not what most consider a large enclosure. I have a tank a little larger than yours that I keep 4 Leucs in. I am happy with the 4 Leucs in this size, and I feel like it would be pushing them to add anymore. 

There are some people on this board that mix types of frogs, but it is normally done in much larger enclosures, usually about 3 times or more the size of yours.

That is about all of the help that I can supply right now.


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## dodderken (Jun 24, 2008)

Thx for the answer (and the conversion of the size  )
If i see my 4 variabilises in it the tank looks realy big


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

They are small in comparison to the tank, but they do indeed like a lot of space. I wouldn't add any frogs to that tank either.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

well this post wont win me any freinds but why not. 18x18x18 exo terra , 4 auratus 1.3 and one grey leg vent male , he was tottaly a part of the group , even went so far as being on the eggs of the auratus at the same time the males was , they called together and slept together at times , they were the best of friends.
craig "currently ducking for cover"
edit for the record these frogs are not capable of inter breeding , frogs that are they a different story


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Craig (begin flaming)that is a cool looking auratus you have there...is his name Cpn. Hook?(end flaming).
Candy


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

I wouldnt mix species regardless of the tanks size.I feel it is not natural looking and other frogs could pass on diseases/worms ect.If your goal is breeding dont mix species.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

candy 4 u , thanks


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Awww - that is such a cool site to see. 
Candy


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

cool.


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## dodderken (Jun 24, 2008)

moothefrog said:


> If your goal is breeding dont mix species.


The goal is not to breed (not yet anyway)
Maybe later ill breed with them but when i do and i do have mixed species i will give them a seperate tank so the can not crossbread (is crossbread the right word?)


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Please dont mix,Mixing isnt for beginners.If you wanted to mix so badly why did you ask the question?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Well hybrids are not the main issue in the set-up above. Craig, is this guy still in with the Auratus. I do think there are more risks than benefits with a mixed species tank, but I think there are often worse husbandry practices responsoble for more problems with darts than a community tank if done smartly (importing kills LOTS more). I don't jump up and down about it anymore UNLESS there is the potential for hybrids, which I feel is_ never acceptable_. I don't encourage mixing either though. Be advised that you run a much greater risk to the health of your frogs if you choose to mix. Keep in mind too that your tank it not very big, so even adding just a few larger frogs could overcrowd all the animals. In fact, I personally would feel that tank is too small to add larger frogs. Why not add another variabilis or two?


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

nope sadly he passed away a lil while ago. he wasnt right from the day i got him , the first 4-5 months i had him he never left the same brom axis, if food wouldnt pass him by he would have starved.funny thing was he seemed to come alive once introduced to the auratus {was originally just temp as i redid his tank}i didnt have the heart to take him back out again. he went from lifeless to incredible active and calling and enjoyed his remaining years. would you have split him?
craig


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Probably not. Sorry to hear that


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Sorry too


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Not to veer too far off topic here- but it bears mentioning that we should all be careful about letting husbandry practices become ossified and overly rigid. Hybridization seems to be the first objection to mixed species enclosures, but there are larger issues.


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## dodderken (Jun 24, 2008)

I dont have the need to mix, but i wanted to know the possibilities.
If i read all this i dont think i am going to mix.
Maybe ill get myself another couple variabilis to put extra in the tank, so its not mixed, but maybe i wont do that to.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> Not to veer too far off topic here- but it bears mentioning that we should all be careful about letting husbandry practices become ossified and overly rigid. Hybridization seems to be the first objection to mixed species enclosures, but there are larger issues.



OSSIFIED, good word use Jason.  I am not sure I see how rigid husbandry relates to this, care to expound? I am guessing you might mean that we should not have an overly narrow view of husbandry, or for instance that the only real threat in a mixed species tank is hybrids. But I am not sure.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This hobby does have a strong tendency towards ossification... 

As for multispecies enclosures check out beginner-discussion/topic4532.html 

Ed


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## arkay (Dec 26, 2007)

I know this is kind of an old thread, and point taken, DONT MIX. But I do have one question. This talks about mixing species, what about mixing within the species, for example Tinctorius Citronella's and Tinctorius Alanis' ?


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

That is probably the worst type of mixing in many peoples opinion. Because of how closely related those species are they will definitely breed if there are a mix of m/f, which with darts can be simply too hard to differentiate to make it safe. The offspring from such a cross could easily look like another morph of tinc, or very similar to either adult which is worrisome because if they got out, people may inadvertently mix them in with their own collections.


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## arkay (Dec 26, 2007)

--- Note before you read this next part ---
I'm sure this is covered extensively somewhere in here, I'll search for it. I also know this is somewhat a sensitive topic so please don't get too angry with my curiosity.
------------------------------------------

Bob Barker says to spade and neuter your pets, let's say that advice was followed  will they behave friendly or aggressively towards one another? 

I'm curious because this must happen in the wild. I mean there arent frog police keeping them on different ends of the jungle playground. I'm also curious, if hybridization is such a concern in captivity how is it prevented in the wild.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Temperature, Climate, Locale, Morphs, Aggression, Humidity Levels, Range, Trees, etc. But there are hundreds of reason it doesn't happen but every once in a while there will be a cross morph because its nature and that is how we have obtained so many morphs. What they don't want is for it to be created on purpose and say "To hell with natural selection, I am GOD now". Pretty much from what I have learned ^^

Also they don't wish to see lines degredated and we all would rather like to have Pure-Breeds pretty much. It doesn't lower values and make it crazy like my African Fat Tailed geckos. Most people don't know that the species was cross morphed with leopard geckos (not sure how, still learning) but they were and now that is the reason they resemble Leopard Geckos tails, but shorter and stouter. ^^ Just toss in my 2 cents.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VenomR00 said:


> there will be a cross morph because its nature and that is how we have obtained so many morphs. What they don't want is for it to be created on purpose and say "To hell with natural selection, I am GOD now". Pretty much from what I have learned ^^


The idea that new morphs are the result of intergrading populations in the wild shows up on occasion in these discussions but as far as I know to date this is not the case with dendrobatids. The reason we see morphs are due to a combination of selective pressure with (at least in pumilio) the probable one being selective pressures by mate choice by the females. 

People keep thinking that the frogs are distributed continously throughout thier habitat (a notion possibly promoted by range maps) when instead there are populations that may not have been connected to another population for a very long time. For example based on genetic analysis the last time D.tinctorius morphs were interconnected was probably during the last glaciation event (see http://bnoonan.org/Papers/Noonan_Gaucher_06.pdf) 

Ed


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## arkay (Dec 26, 2007)

Neat article! Thanks.


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