# Yo-han first time



## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I can't seem to find the introduction subforum, so I guess there is none, so let me introduce myself here!
I'm Johan from the Netherlands and I'm quite an experienced fish and planted tank keeper. I own a 400L/100G planted tank (see pictures below), a 50L/12G Vietnamese biotope and a planted nano tank. I mastered keeping difficult plant species, breeding fish/shrimp and am up for a new challange. (I always am when I mastered the previous one. Perhaps I like failure, disappointment or anything, or perhaps I just like to learn) Fortunate for me I always read up quite a lot and try to learn from other peoples mistakes as much as possible.











































What I like to do now is start a paludarium where the Vietnamese biotope will be transferred to the lower part and in the upper part I'll keep some frogs/newts/salamanders and lots of aquatic plants emersed and a few terrestrial plants. I'm 90% sure it will be a Terratlantis 88x45x75cm (300L/75G with 80L/20G water), placed on a dresser:









I want to make a false bottom like this, which covers about 2/3th of the bottom, with 20cm/8inch of water below:








I've seen a very nice small hill stream rapid (from arielelf) I like a lot:









I would like to make something like that and perhaps a fake tree, or a large branche that hangs over the rapid. I've build a fake background for my aquarium once, so I know what I'm getting into. I'm drawing a lot lately and trying to figure the scale of everything, and how to integrate technique, while still accessible.
Not sure about whether I only use a background, or cover three sides.

Not sure either about the lighting. Thinking of using LED floodlights. Or maybe only one strong one in the middle front, and supplementing it with T5/LED and perhaps an UV bulb (although I read mixed reactions about this).

And on the side I'm already reading about culturing food. But I won't start that before everything is finished, I'm in no rush with the land animals (not even sure what animals) and have excess to springtails and fruit flies so in the worst case I can buy them.

That's it for now. Although nothing is definite yet, if anything sounds like it could be done better, please advice!


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

So, here is the first sketch, and some questions:










The idea is a moss covered fake tree that leads all the way into the water. A waterfall similar to the previous shown a little more to the right, also extending all the way into the water. One or two hanging branches. A nice field of grass or small carpet plant in the middle and around the three and on the other side of the waterfall. Ferns in the corners and perhaps 1 or 2 Bromelia's or similar on the backwall. Not sure about how I want the backwall to look. I don't want it to look like someone smacked some dirt on it, but I don't think I'll make an all rocky background. In the end it will probably be covered in moss 90%, so it doesn't matter. I'm also considering leaving the middle open and placing a black/white/milky plate behind it to make it look larger (a common trick in aquariums). 

Is one of these options more beneficial to the animals compared to the others?

If I make the waterfall from back to front, do frogs still cross it? Do they go through the water if it moves slow? How far can they hop? I can always make a small passage below in the back, but is it needed?


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

I would say more important than if the frogs will cross the waterfall, is to make sure that the waterfall won't splash too much and saturate your substrate. 

if you don't want your background to look like dirt or rock, why not try the cork bark mosaic? gives a fairly nice woody look and allows for easy planting on the back wall.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Charlie Q said:


> I would say more important than if the frogs will cross the waterfall, is to make sure that the waterfall won't splash too much and saturate your substrate.


Thnx! I think that is a good point, but the waterfall will flow quite slow, so I don't expect that to be a problem. I need to remember this when constructing the waterfall. But there must be limitations to the waterfall, when they are no longer able to cross it?



Charlie Q said:


> if you don't want your background to look like dirt or rock, why not try the cork bark mosaic? gives a fairly nice woody look and allows for easy planting on the back wall.


Lets say the background will be covered 100%, what would be the best material to use?


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

After reading for the entire day, figured out quite a lot, but do have even more questions Lets start with the substrate. What I want is like this:









Egg crate with water below and substrate above. I read many great things about ABG mix. This isn't available over here, but as a plan B I can make it myself.
The best substrate for plants you can get in the aquarium world is ADA aquasoil: NATURE AQUARIUM GOODS » Substrate System - Aqua Soil series ||| ADA Nature Aquarium - Aqua Design Amano Co., Ltd
What it basically is, is baked clay with added nutrients.

I and many others used it to grow plants emersed and it works like a charm! But how usable would this be in a paludarium? Can anybody guess it based on experience?


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

No thoughts on the baked clay soil?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

looks like a wonderful start...am subscribed.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Thanks! But still have dozens of questions, so I hope you and some others can help me on those. I hate making rookie mistakes (especially when it comes to livestock).


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

if you can't get your hands on ABG, maybe check out this thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Your fish tanks are gorgeous. I'm not an expert in paludariums, but I'm sure you'll do a great job. Keep us updated!


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

rigel10 said:


> Your fish tanks are gorgeous. I'm not an expert in paludariums, but I'm sure you'll do a great job. Keep us updated!


Thnx! Thats why I'm up to a new challenge, but I want to do it right the first time. Or at least as close to as possible. I'm in no hurry!



Charlie Q said:


> if you can't get your hands on ABG, maybe check out this thread:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html


Hmm... Seems like it that is working, aquasoil should work as well. The OP suggest covering it with a lot of leaf litter. I see a lot of vivariums using leaf litter. I understand that this is beneficial for keeping springtails and isopods in your tank all the time, but I would like to cover the entire bottom with a carpet plant like Hemianthus callichtroides or something. A little like this but emersed:









Would this work too? Or am I better off covering the clay substrate (aquasoil) with an ABG (like) substrate?


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## VPardoel (Apr 2, 2010)

Awesome tank!

Als je ooit stekjes nodig hebt hoor ik het wel


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

For what i have learned here at DB, covering the bottom with moss is not nearly as good as leaves. the frogs can hide in the leaves, hunt in the leaves, microfauna can thrive in the leaves, whereas moss makes the frogs very exposed, out in the open.


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## asunderco (Apr 4, 2011)

Here's a nice How to on ABG

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html

Here's one of my favorite tanks on the boards, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/71866-vics-display-paludarium.html

Additionally, read this thread; http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-construction.html, it'll blow your mind.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Charlie Q said:


> For what i have learned here at DB, covering the bottom with moss is not nearly as good as leaves. the frogs can hide in the leaves, hunt in the leaves, microfauna can thrive in the leaves, whereas moss makes the frogs very exposed, out in the open.


Hmm... Good point, I'll at least make some leave areas in the shady corner I guess. But if I pick some bold frogs like leucomelas, would it matter too? Also, I'll leave open areas below the fake trees and maybe build a few rocky caves in the back. About the microfauna, don't you think they will flourish in the grass/carpet as well? And I can always add food daily if needed.



asunderco said:


> Here's a nice How to on ABG
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the links, but I read/scanned all of them already, haha!

ABG seems like the way to go, and I'll probably will make my own. The only reason I'm checking alternatives, is that the entire bottom will be water and I don't want it to become too yellow. I'll be doing 50% water changes (I am now) so I'm not sure how yellow it will get, but I want to prevent that I need to redo the tank after a month. I know aqua soil won't give me that problem, and it will grow plants without a problem. The only thing I can't judge, is whether it will stay too wet, or if it is harmful for the frogs (I don't suppose so). Maybe I can cover it with a small layer of ABG, or with just a layer of tree fiber or something.



VPardoel said:


> Awesome tank!
> 
> Als je ooit stekjes nodig hebt hoor ik het wel


Thanks, I certainly will! Saw your vivarium in the signature, looks really good. Do you know the name of the fern in this picture:


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

Microfauna flourishes better in leaf litter due to the decaying organic matter. I'm sure that having a section of moss won't hurt, but just make sure that you have enough leaves for them to hunt and hide it. Remember that a tank with a lot of hiding spots often allows the frogs to be more bold, since they know that they can dash back to hiding.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I quote Charlie Q: leaf litters is essential in a dart frog viv! You can put the moss on the driftwood, rocks or background.


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## VPardoel (Apr 2, 2010)

@ yo-han

Nope sorry, the fern just started growing out of the peat.


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## banditsdaisy (Jul 20, 2010)

Absolutely beautiful aquariums. Good luck and I can't wait to see the updates.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

banditsdaisy said:


> Absolutely beautiful aquariums. Good luck and I can't wait to see the updates.


Thanks! I can't neither, but I don't even have the tank yet Think I figured out the sprinkler, still checking about fogger (ultrasonic looks best, but I read some bad things about them) and DIY LED lighting (supplemented with UV, although I read mixed opinions)



asunderco said:


> Additionally, read this thread; http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-construction.html, it'll blow your mind.


It really did, it looks a lot like I'm planning, but waaayyyy bigger!



VPardoel said:


> @ yo-han
> 
> Nope sorry, the fern just started growing out of the peat.


If it does well, I'll certainly love a piece of that!


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I found this substrate online, which looks exactly like aqua soil and even the description is almost the same. Opinions about using this or aqua soil?

Reptile-food.ch Shop, Terraristik Online-Shop | ReptiClay 6L | Buy online


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I draw a little more and this is what I came up with:










I want to be able to grow moss on every square inch of background if needed. Any idea how many sprinkler I would need to be able to wet everything? Would 4 do?


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Hmm... more questions than answers Well, here is another one. I would love to create fog. I read the ultrasonic foggers placed inside the tank are a big no-no:









So I figured I can place it inside the RO tank from which the sprinklers get their water and attach a hose into the paludarium. First question, would this work, or why not? Second question, I was thinking to use the right tree to hide the hose. Let it enter from the top and exit below behind the stream. I assume I can't let the hose open or the frogs will enter, but will covering it with mess, mess up the fog? And is there a max length for the hose? (before the fog will condensate too much)


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Regarding the clay, here in the US we have a product called infield conditioner (Turface, Diamond Pro, Proschoice1, etc.) which is a vitrified clay (expanded shale and clay) product applied to skinned areas of baseball and softball fields. I use that in my tanks and the water remains clear. Not as good as Pumilo's recipe as far as calcium transfer to your animals, but better than using ABG alone. 

As far as the fogger, I would suggest using something external hooked with a tube. Simple modifications to the "out" would make it possible to direct the fog into the tank. Example: New Portable Water Bottle Ultrasonic Steam Diffuser Mist Air Purifier Humidifier | eBay


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## hamz77 (Mar 17, 2013)

pretty sure the fern pictured is Polystichum tsus-simense


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

hamz77 said:


> pretty sure the fern pictured is Polystichum tsus-simense


Thanks!



JPccusa said:


> Regarding the clay, here in the US we have a product called infield conditioner (Turface, Diamond Pro, Proschoice1, etc.) which is a vitrified clay (expanded shale and clay) product applied to skinned areas of baseball and softball fields. I use that in my tanks and the water remains clear. Not as good as Pumilo's recipe as far as calcium transfer to your animals, but better than using ABG alone.
> 
> As far as the fogger, I would suggest using something external hooked with a tube. Simple modifications to the "out" would make it possible to direct the fog into the tank. Example: New Portable Water Bottle Ultrasonic Steam Diffuser Mist Air Purifier Humidifier | eBay


What kind of modifications on the outlet?

Turface is used in aquariums as well, it is like a more cheap but less good alternative for aquasoil. When you use it, do you cover it with something?


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

I modified the out pipe to fit a pipe into it. Pretty simple, actually.

Some of the pockets of turface that I used in my land area are covered with ABG. Some areas I left the turface exposed. Turface used in the water area is also exposed.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Thanks, that is another issue solved! Now I was planning LED lighting tonight, I made another thread (see here) for this because it was kind of a side track, but the results will be posted here as well. For anyone reading this and not feel like reading the other thread, how many 5W Cree XT-E LEDs (330 lumens per LED) can I use maximum on a paludarium like mine (it will be made dimmable, so I can always down-tune, but I want to know the max for growing the most demanding plants!)?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I bought this humidifier. I simply put a pipe of the same size in the hole circled (after removing the white cap). It works! But it does not replace a Mistking (and the like, because here in Europe it is not easy to find Mistking). A viv needs a Mistking, IMO.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

rigel10 said:


> I bought this humidifier. I simply put a pipe of the same size in the hole circled (after removing the white cap). It works!


Yep.


rigel10 said:


> But it does not replace a Mistking (and the like, because here in Europe it is not easy to find Mistking). A viv needs a Mistking, IMO.


Indeed, the mist will not replace water being sprayed, but a viv does not need a Mistking as that can be accomplished by manual devices.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I know, I already ordered a spraying system, but the fog is nice how many nozzles would be best for my size? 88x45x60cm


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

BTW, I picked up the tank yesterday so I can start building. I checked the LED wiring with an electrotechnician and it was impossible to make it dimmable this easy. So I'm altering those plans


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I'll be starting with the eggcrate false bottom soon, any does and don'ts from experience?


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

Watch your fingers and go slow, watch your face too.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Back to the fogger, I've seen two very cheap options on Ebay:





If I place these in a water tank and connect a hose to my paludarium, would this work?


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## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

hi Johan

Where approximately in the Netherlands do you live?


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

wimvanvelzen said:


> hi Johan
> 
> Where approximately in the Netherlands do you live?


In Utrecht, why?


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## wimvanvelzen (Nov 1, 2008)

hi Johan

If you want to, we could meet (I live in Veenendaal) and exchange ideas.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

@ Wimvanvelzen: I'd come to you if only to admire your wonderful viv!


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

rigel10 said:


> @ Wimvanvelzen: I'd come to you if only to admire your wonderful viv!


As will I!

I've read some mixed opinions on UV light. I can't really judge who is knowledgeable on this board yet besides looking at post count. To sum what I read: it seems like it isn't proven to add anything, people not using it, still have happy frogs. Most people use it, as in: better safe than sorry, if it won't help it won't hurt the frogs either. Am I right?

Tomorrow I start building the plateau, so soon there will be pictures!!!


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

No one on the UV?

OK, lets show some picture.
The empty tank:









The building blocks:









The land portion:









Two fake trees, inside the one in the corner will be all the wires to the heater and filter, and also a pipe where the fog enters the tank (through the hole in the front). The hole in the other tank will contain a film canister like pipe, as a possible breeding hole.









To prevent frogs from entering the fog pipe:


















And to make it fit the round pipe:


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Yo-han said:


> As will I!
> 
> I've read some mixed opinions on UV light. I can't really judge who is knowledgeable on this board yet besides looking at post count. To sum what I read: it seems like it isn't proven to add anything, people not using it, still have happy frogs. Most people use it, as in: better safe than sorry, if it won't help it won't hurt the frogs either. Am I right?
> 
> Tomorrow I start building the plateau, so soon there will be pictures!!!


You're mostly right as long as you are using good supplements, though to much uv and not enough hiding places actually could hurt the frogs...

But if you stick with 1 bulb that is rated for 5-6% UVB over a strip of mesh you should be fine and the frogs/maybe the plants might benefit some. (UVB doesn't go through most glass or acrylic very well)


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Great answer! You recommend 5-6% over the 2% version?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Yo-han said:


> Great answer! You recommend 5-6% over the 2% version?


From the research I've done ya... I don't think 5-6% given what the sun puts out and how fast the light falls off the further you get from the light bulb, and with good cover in that vivarium that it is enough to be very dangerous unless the animal has no hiding places and is camped out under the light. You said you're doing a 75 gallon right? ...The size/height of that tank and some hiding places/plants leaves should keep the animal from getting a sun tan 

If you were doing a 20 long, or some other very short tank I might go 2% but in a larger tank I think an arcadia 6% or zoo med 5%, or some other reputable brand rated around 5% is probably the best compromise between usefulness and safety. 

D3 T5 High Output Forest Reptile Lamp : Arcadia Reptile

Arcadia T8 D3+ Reptile Lamp 18" *Fits all regular 18" fluorescent fixtures* SALE!!


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Umzz... I read some posts about frogs drowning in an inch of water. Other people said they were sick and sought comfort in the water, dying there. With 1/3 of the surface area open and 10 inch of water below. Do I need to be scared for frogs jumping in the water and drowning? They can climb out over the entire length!


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## mollbern (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't know if you've already seen JoshsDragonz 180 gallon viv, but he keeps many frogs in there with a sizable water feature and doesn't seem to have had any problems regarding drowning. 

He responds on page 16 to concerns:


JoshsDragonz said:


> I'm going to put some D. leucomelas in there. From my research dendrobatid's don't drown as easily as what floats around on the Internet. There are plenty of areas for the frogs to climb out of the water if they decide to go in. If it was a water feature that was hard to get out of then I would be worried but as said earlier there are plenty of areas for the frogs to get out of the water.
> 
> -Josh


There's always a risk factor involved, but I think if you build mindfully with frog safety in mind, you're on the right track.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

mollbern said:


> I don't know if you've already seen JoshsDragonz 180 gallon viv, but he keeps many frogs in there with a sizable water feature and doesn't seem to have had any problems regarding drowning.
> 
> He responds on page 16 to concerns:
> 
> There's always a risk factor involved, but I think if you build mindfully with frog safety in mind, you're on the right track.


Thnx, somehow I missed that topic, there goes another hour


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I did found some 365-385nm, some 380-385nm UV LEDs and 395-405nm LEDs. But I think it's not very helpful and need lower wavelengths...


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Yo-han said:


> Umzz... I read some posts about frogs drowning in an inch of water. Other people said they were sick and sought comfort in the water, dying there. With 1/3 of the surface area open and 10 inch of water below. Do I need to be scared for frogs jumping in the water and drowning? They can climb out over the entire length!


Well I'm one of the people that thinks many of these stories are a result of sick frogs going to hydrate themselves, or falling/rolling into the water in a weakened state and in most cases the frogs probably would have died anyways. I think sometimes people scare frogs into tight spots and or the frog gets so stressed they stay down to long and pass out or basically the keeper does something that inadvertently leads to a drowning, or some situation that resembles a drowning. A healthy frog can sometimes climb out of a water feature straight up the glass, so I have a hard time believing they just fall in the water and drown. Then there are the deaths where another frog held it down in the water, which is why I actually think a bit of a drop off is good because it is harder for one frog to hold down a floating/swimming frog in deeper water then it is for them to jump on a frog sitting in shallow water and push it underwater trapped between the bottom and the frog on its back. (just a theory)

So there may be a few instances where a sick frog might have survived had there not been a water feature, or a frog might not of drowned another frog or something but overall I think a decent water feature that the frogs can climb out of presents only marginally more risk then a viv without a water feature.



Yo-han said:


> I did found some 365-385nm, some 380-385nm UV LEDs and 395-405nm LEDs. But I think it's not very helpful and need lower wavelengths...


Plants may use some uv , or it may effect how they color up like in broms but I haven't found much evidence that it is needed...

UVB is the spectrum for making vitamin D and that is at 315 – 280 nm, so no those leds wouldn't be very helpful for that, and the leds that are in that spectrum are at a specific wavelength like 310nm, so you only get part of the spectrum unless you buy several different leds that target different NM ranges of uvb... incandescent and fluorescent lights cover more of the total UVB range instead of targeting a specific wavelength which makes them more practical for our use. 

If you are keeping lizards or something that is known to benefit significantly from UVB then go for it, but darts do fine without it as long as they get good supplementation, but as long as you don't over do it you may see some benefit from having it.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Great answer again Dave, thanks for taking the time!

I don't really believe in the plants need UV theory. I know they can use it, but do they need it? The plants in my living room get none and they do great! As do the plants in my aquarium as you can see in my first post.

Another question about frogs in the water... I know most frogs are no longer poisonous (or at least way less) when kept in captivity. But what if I buy frogs that are still poisonous (lets say a Phyllobates, straight from the jungle) and it falls into the water (or sits in the stream connected to the water part to make it less dramatic). Does that kill the fish/shrimp?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Yo-han said:


> Great answer again Dave, thanks for taking the time!
> 
> I don't really believe in the plants need UV theory. I know they can use it, but do they need it? The plants in my living room get none and they do great! As do the plants in my aquarium as you can see in my first post.
> 
> Another question about frogs in the water... I know most frogs are no longer poisonous (or at least way less) when kept in captivity. But what if I buy frogs that are still poisonous (lets say a Phyllobates, straight from the jungle) and it falls into the water (or sits in the stream connected to the water part to make it less dramatic). Does that kill the fish/shrimp?


I don't know for sure. I know that potential to poison fish, or the potential to poison tank mates has been raised with fire bellied toads and newts, but I'm personally not aware of any specific cases where that has for sure happened. My guess is those animals are at least as toxic if not much more so then our captive bred dart frogs. Now WC darts like the phyllobates may have them beat other then the Teseros projects frogs you don't see many WC phyllobates these days.


So basically I don't know, but from what I've seen on TV/vids, and read I think for the most part they don't secrete those toxins unless heavily stressed. There may be some always present in the mucus layer on the skin though. Whether that is enough to poison some fish or another frog I cannot say. Maybe Ed has some info about that. 

For CB it isn't something I'd worry about much. I've kept darts and fish, and back in my nooby days before I knew better I had a newt, couple of darts, a few fish, and a firebellied toad in the same tank (46 bow). I got lucky with that mix and they actually seemed to do well till the ice storm came that wiped out most of my collection, but that is something I could NOT now recommend anyone doing in good conscience for many reason other then the possible toxicity issues, but I didn't have any issues with toxcity between those animals.. *

But with the most toxic species of WC frogs, it is something that would concern me much more.* I might be willing to experiment with a few fish, but I'd be pretty leery of mixing anything else with a WC terribilis.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I continued working on the pipe where the fog will come through. Sideview:









Where the fog will enter the tank: (this will be almost invisible after I made the fake tree)









Sealed everything off with silicone:









I also attached the gaze to the eggcrate and made a little border to prevent the soil from falling into the water. The edge will be covered in moss to make it even higher and prevent further soil slides:









I moved the plateau to the left to make room for a small pool. Inside the left tree I will make a egg deposit cave film canister like. And in the background I'll make a few more pouches for egg depositing and large plants. I think I can start carving styrofoam now


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## VPardoel (Apr 2, 2010)

Looking good!

Cant wait to see it when its done.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Thnx! Me too


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I made an egg deposit container in the left tree yesterday and I started working on the foam. Still need to make the roots and all the foam on the background, but I'm buying a new house at the same time so I don't think it is wise to put any livestock in here before I moved. Maybe the plants, but I need to consider that. Here a quick snapshot from the tree, the fake wall and the pillar that will support the eggcrate frame:









This is my main inspiration for the walls:

















Will make some plant pockets in there most likely as well. And perhaps some egg deposit containers (love them to breed one day).



O, and after seeing 250 frog species, I fell in love with Ameerega pepperi (orange/orangehead). (And Cainarachi but this is illegal in the Netherlands I understood). Seems like the perfect frog for this paludarium. They love to live alongside streams and I really like their bodyshape and color.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I'm moving soon and my new house has a conservatory (closed veranda). That would be the most beautiful place to put the paludarium. The conservatory is facing NNW so isn't receiving full sun all day, but I don't know how hot/cold it will get. I think that by heating the water I can get keep it warm enough, but the question is more about cooling. How do you cool a paludarium?


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

Does your water have a filtration system? because if so, you could run the water through a heat exchanger before returning it to the tank. I imagine that you have to be really careful not to drop the temperature too drastically in order to not shock any aquatic animals, but with a little bit of work, it could probably be done. You could even have a valve that would allow you to divert a variable portion of the water into the heat exchanger, giving you more control over the tempo the water.

I don't really know if this is a viable solution for you, but it's an idea at least.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

The tank build is still on hold, although I did went to a frog convention yesterday and bought some stuff to make ABG mix and spotted some beautiful frogs! Really love the metallic shine on Ranitomeya uakarii and Ranitomeya variabilis. Colorwise, they would be a great combination as well. I know, you can't combine frogs, don't shoot me!

I also bought 5 ferns, I love ferns and couldn't leave them there


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Well, I moved and most of the house is done, so I've some spare time again now and then. I continued working on the styrofoam and although it goes slow, I really like where it is going










At the right will be a small waterfall with the pump and a heater hidden behind it.

I measured a max tempurature of 33.5 celcius in the conservatory, and the old owner garantied me it never gets below zero degree celcius (although heating is easier than cooling). I need to replace the roof anyway, so I'm looking for a better insulating/isolating roof. Either way, I'll try to run the paludarium in here, if it doesn't work, it moves up stairs to my work room, but this spot is way more beautiful!


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Nice job carving the Styrofoam, the end result will be stunning if you keep that up! A successful paludarium can look really great. I think this one will be a success

I would be worried putting the tank in a room that drops to zero degrees, especially if you don't have a tested heating procedure that you know works. If possible, I would keep the tank elsewhere until you can know for certain the minimum temperature is at an acceptable level.

Variabilis and uakarii are both really cool frogs. Honestly, its hard to go wrong with a great frog like variabilis. And although my experience with uakarii is very limited, I bet they will be just as rewarding as any other Ranitomeya species. 

John


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Thnx John! About heating, I've a decade experience with aquaria. I'll heat the water section till around 25 degree and see what the air temperature will be. With the heat from the lighting and heat coming from the water I don't expect it to run too cold.

I'll test with only plants before putting frogs in there for a few months. And like I said, if temperature will get a problem, I'll move the paludarium to another room


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

A few minutes more carving, almost final:


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Now only painting etc. (more work than expected! *sigh*)


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Nice work! I will follow this.


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## snake54320 (Dec 16, 2011)

Yo-han said:


> I'm moving soon and my new house has a conservatory (closed veranda). That would be the most beautiful place to put the paludarium. The conservatory is facing NNW so isn't receiving full sun all day, but I don't know how hot/cold it will get. I think that by heating the water I can get keep it warm enough, but the question is more about cooling. How do you cool a paludarium?


Because of the very significant temperature gap between the tank (25 degrees) and the room (5 degrees in winter?) there will be lots of condensation on the glass doors. Don't underestimate this phenomon, otherwise your paludarium will become impossible to admire. It can be avoided whatsoever by installing fans above the front of the tank. 

Never the less, great hardscape! looking forward to seeing new updates.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

snake54320 said:


> Because of the very significant temperature gap between the tank (25 degrees) and the room (5 degrees in winter?) there will be lots of condensation on the glass doors. Don't underestimate this phenomon, otherwise your paludarium will become impossible to admire. It can be avoided whatsoever by installing fans above the front of the tank.
> 
> Never the less, great hardscape! looking forward to seeing new updates.


Thanks for the heads up. I already bought 3 fans, but need to tune this before any animals go in. If they suck in too much cold air this won't be good either. Not sure how many I'll use for air movement inside and how many for expelling air (sucking fresh air in from the front).

Either way, there won't be any frogs in there before I'm 100% sure I can guaranty a good environment for the frogs. If I'm unable to accomplish this in that room, the paludarium will be moved to my computer room.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

It starts to go faster now. Recall the last photo, 5 min later cutting was finished:









Started with the water part and 10 min and 3 layers later it looked like this:

































Detailed look:









So the upper half got glued in:









After a little dinner break it got dark (winter) so the last picture is with the LED lights on:









I still need to do a few more layers on the upper part and the tree, but I'm pleased with the result so far!


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## Slengteng (Sep 16, 2014)

The stones turned out completely real! Good job! 👍


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Thank you! Now working on the trees and some vines:


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

And with the LEDs on:


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Some vines and I installed the sprinkler system. Next step is flushing all the acid out and making some substrate. After that, installing the pump and heater and fish and plants can go in.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

I started flushing all bad things out yesterday. I used RO water (14 ppm, pH:7,5) and after the first flush the water that came out was 780 ppm and pH was 10.1 !!! I expected it to be very low, with all the acid in the grout and the peat flushing off the trees. Anybody an idea where this comes from?

Either way, after 3 times it is already 330ppm pH:8.3 so we're getting there. One thing I don't like is the fact that the acrylic polymer turned white again after being wet. Will this go away? Or did I not let it dry enough?


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

The pH was quite stable last 24 hours so I decorated the water part. Stones and sand from my Vietnamese biotope, the filter from the biotope and I moved the fish straight away too. The result (the outflow will be redirected later):









The water is heated at 20C let's see what the upper part is tomorrow. Right now it is 15C with a room temperature of 8C.

I also mixed some ABG, but was all out of charcoal so that will be added tomorrow.

About the condensation, you were right snake54320, the upper part was foggy in a few minutes... next year it will be an isolated room, let's see what I can do with fans in the mean time.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Nice! That looks totally awesome! What fish did you add?

John


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Thank you very much! I added Tanichthys micagemmae, Micronemacheilus cruciatus and Sewellia lineolata. All from Vietnam.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Sewellia lineolata is one of my all time favorite fish!! I really want to do a nice river themed species tank for some, but haven't gotten around to it yet. The other two species are nice choices as well, I'm sure the tank will look even cooler when everything settles. Definitely keep us updated 

John


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Well, the water temperature kept at 15-17C and the emersed part was 8-11C, so way too cold. I turned up the heat in the room and the water temperature and now the temperature emersed is 18C and submersed 24C. Will isolate the glass tomorrow, but already placed a dozen plants in there, so I don't want to withhold some pictures:


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Not many replies... is that because there are no frogs?  

Well, here is a new picture from the emersed part with more plants.

And I redirected the water flow so the outlet isn't visible anymore. I also installed fans to prevent the glass from being moist all the time. 

In the same room is a fireplace, chilling right now while the light slowly fade out.


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

Wow, looking at those old pictures it's a real jungle now:


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Wow! Talk about transformation Tuesday, I barely recognize it now. It's looking really good though, job well done


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Wow! Incredible growth. It's definitely a jungle now. Looks great!


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## kromar (Jun 6, 2015)

wow those plants exploded like in slow motion 
i really like the look of the rock wall and hanging vines, gives kind of a jungle ruin look to it, i think it would look really cool if it would still show in some places^^


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

kromar said:


> wow those plants exploded like in slow motion
> i really like the look of the rock wall and hanging vines, gives kind of a jungle ruin look to it, i think it would look really cool if it would still show in some places^^


I agree! The Ficus took over too much of the walls, hiding all my hard work I trimmed the ficus already several times and wished I stayed with the original plan to only use the slow growing oakleaf ficus. Either way I'm not unhappy for my first attempt. Especially the folder is really awesome. I used it for the first time since the toads are in there, a few days ago. They were really looking like: what happens here?!


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## Yo-han (Jan 26, 2014)

It's hard to capture the fog on photo, but in real life it's really nice. It comes slowly from the corner and takes over the entre tank like a real fog cloud:


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Looks great, but perhaps a little overgrown? Your beautiful rocks don't show.

Edit: just saw your post noting the rocks don't show.... Great minds think alike!


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