# Frog combination arrangements.



## Guest (Jun 23, 2005)

Hello,

I am new to this forum and new to Dendrobates as pets. *I consider only a year experience new especially after reading some threads in here* Let me tell you a little bit about my setups. My fascination has started with a friend of mine who had a Red Eye Tree Frog as a pet. I thought it was cool as hell. I asked where he got it from told me a Herp Show in Columbus and gave me a book to read on. I spent a good two weeks learning about Red Eyes and finally purchased a baby one with what the petstore recommended at the time a 5 gallon tank. That was a year ago. Since then I also have purchased a Red Mantella in another 5 gallon tank, A Leucomela *bumble bee dart* for another 5 gallon tank, and a green aurautus for ..you guessed it another 5 gallon tank.

So i got 4 of these 5 gallon tanks. All the frogs are happy seperately. However since having these pets ive moved into a house and want to build a real vivarium. I still have a lot to learn about it and the more i learn about building a _REALLY NICE_ vivarium the more i see how much of a cost im going to put into it. 

I feel the above background was necessary so you could answer my question. My question is, is there a list or does anyone know out of those 4 which ones can be put together successfully and they wont either
A. eat each other
B. stress each other out
C. territorial to an over extent.
If its possible for all 4 of those to live together then let me know.

I have a feeling you might respond it depends on how much space you are giving. Well I am thinking of building a 3 foot by 6foot high vivarium. enough room for the redeye to climb and be away from the mantella.

Also if you think im over doing it and all i need is a nice 50-80 gallon tank for these four and they will be fine then let me know that too.

Really i need just a compatibility chart of frogs..but i have a feelings its not going to be that easy.

Thank you for your time,
Nemesis


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

search the posts for threads on housing different species together. generally its a bad idea. especially what you're looking to do. just different darts together is a stressfull idea for them, adding a mantella and a retf in the mix is even worse. even in a large tank its a bad idea.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2005)

Ok will do. That sux. I was hoping all these lil guys would live in harmony. I thought you could put nocturnal together with daytime frogs guess not. I figured on the redeye not bothering the mantella or leuc or aurautus since he is a canopy dweller and not on the ground..ah well. Then i guess best thing to do is pick one of these 4 types and make my vivarium for them.. The redeye i am going to need to transfer to a bigger tank anyways after a year hes now almost 3 inches :shock:


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2005)

your retf definatly needs a bigger tank. in fact, i think all of your frogs need bigger tanks, but thats just me. as far as keeping a retf with a mantella, they would not interact which is good, but the retf needs food items that will be as large as the mantella, and big enough to stress the PDFs. also, if i understand coreectly (im still a newb too ) the leuc and auratus would be able to breed (if they are opposite sex), which is really not good for the hobby.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2005)

Hi,

Well, I'm also a newbie, and I have NO IDEA about the tree frog and the mantella. My understanding (just from reading) is that you could technically put the two dart frogs together without them necessarily killing each other, but that you'd have to be sure not to let them BREED. So if your frogs are opposite sexes and you keep them together, make sure to throw away any eggs you find, don't raise any tads, and for the love of God don't make any hybrid frogs and then try to SELL them :shock: , because if you do that, everyone here will FREAK OUT and hate on you for messing up their hobby.  Well, that's my perception of the issue anyway. Good luck!


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2005)

Wow i didnt know Leucs and Aurautus could cross breed. What do cross bred frogs look like? I've never heard of such a thing weeeeird...any how. I went out and bought a 10 gallon for the Red eye. The others are staying put. And im going to start design on my vivarium and hopefully have it finished by august. its going to be a tall one instead of wide and long.. 6'X3'X3'

thanks for all the help  This is a great forum for info and ive found soo many topics to read on i'll prolly be busy for the next month or so just readin instead of posting lol


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

If your Red Eye Tree Frog is an adult, the minimum tank size it should live in is a 20 high, with larger being better. Smaller red eyes can live in smaller tanks, but adults can be stressed when kept in too small of a tank. I have 3 in a 40 extra high tank and I think that is too small considering how active they are. The mantella is probably ok in a 5 if it is set up correctly. Leucs do best in 20 gallon or larger tanks so that they have plenty of climbing room. While it is fun to keep different species, instead of mixing, try to get groups of each species but house them separately. If space is an issue, consider getting a commercial shelving system. One with 4 ft. long shelves can easily hold several tanks. I have one with 4 10 gallons, a 40 gallon, and 2 15 gallon tanks.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

If i were you i would not mix the red eye with any other frogs. It has been known that a full grown red eye likes to eat, and in the instance he or she gets very hungry or mistakes a smaller poison dart, WELL...... you get the idea. Even if not eating it, any smaller frog can be serioudly hurt and that can lead to disabilities or ever worse. 

In the wild some species do come in contact with each other but i would not mix any of them in a small tank. Even a 100 gallon is not a jungle....Good luck with all your frogs


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## reptileink (May 1, 2005)

Nemesis, not sure if you get Reptiles Magazine or not, but in this months there is a great article about mixed vivariums. Might be able to check it out at http://www.reptilesmagazine.com, but I don't think they show articles on the site because then nobody would subscribe.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Here is an idea. Because you have had them for a while you might be able to sex them. It may be sad for you but you could sell or trade one of the opposits sex and get a pair toghether. simplified

Female x unsexed y, sell y or trade and get male X =BABY FROGS!

but other wise it might be hard to give up that y frog  .

Ayway have fun P.S. the ten gallon would fit a pair of any of those frogs except the retf. Have fun


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

I would as everyone mentioned, avoid the tree frogs and mantellas. 

You also could mix species. Its not for sure that it will work out, but it can. I have a 90 gallon with three species, azureus, tincs, and auratus. All are well. Breeding is an issue, but only that it is unethical to do anything with the froglets. They will, can breed, and the froglets will be just fine. This is frowned upon by most all keepers. I have plans to dispose of eggs or youthanize any froglets that I find. So there you go, its possible with some planning and consideration for the future.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The mantella has different care requirements than the darts which is why it should be kept seperate (they like cooler temps and are best in same species groups with a stream).

A treefrog isn't that bad in a tall tank (they are arboreal, they want hieght, under 3 ft out in the jungle is still terrestrial!) so you want space for them to move around the big leaved plants at the top of the tank. In the wild they usually are up in the canopy higher than all but the most arboreal dart species go. Frogs eat things that move... including other frogs... in a tank that's getting the RETF too close to frogs that are about the right size for food.... If you really want treefrogs in there for for the smaller species like Clown (hyla leucophyllata) and Hourglass (hyla ebraccata) species which stay small enough to be fine with all but the thumbnail sized frogs.

The leucs and auratus have similar enough care requirements that in theory yes, they could be kept together. Mixed species tanks are a touchy subject because they are usually hard to pull off (need a large tank with compatible frogs and the whole breeding aspect....). In low enough densities leucs and auratus will get along, neither being a super aggressive species. The hybrid aspect is a touchy subject in itself, and you could just toss eggs as they are found to keep from getting into that subject.

While I'm on the subject, I wanted to bring up a theory about hybridization and mixed species tanks, it doesn't just occur with a male of one species and a female of another, it can happen when there are mixed sexed breeding groups of both species housed together as well (it used to be believed that if you had proven breeders of one species and proven breeders of another they wouldn't interbreed and this is false). Its not that the leuc would court an auratus when there is the option of other leucs around (differences in call and some breeding behavior would make this unlikely), its that after a pair of one species courts and lays eggs, a male of the other species may come up and fertilize the eggs if one of the parents isn't gaurding them (males of many species gaurd in theory to protect eggs and possibly to keep other males from fertilizing them within the first couple of days). The male of the other species doesn't know what eggs they are, just that they look like dendrobatid eggs, and instinct tells him to get his genes out there by fertilizing the eggs (for the percent that may not have been fertilized by the original male) so he does his thing. Some of the eggs are pure species and some may be hybrids. 

Not all eggs are fertilized during the original courting and I don't know about you guys, but I was always told to leave eggs for 48 hours so they male has a chance to fertilize as many of the eggs as possible.... this implies that he fertilizes eggs when the female isn't around, and "egg parasitism" (one male fertilizing a clutch just laid by a courting pair of frogs, off an article on european common frogs) may not just count for same species, but in this case cross species because the eggs are so similar.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The mantella has different care requirements than the darts which is why it should be kept seperate (they like cooler temps and are best in same species groups with a stream).

A treefrog isn't that bad in a tall tank (they are arboreal, they want hieght, under 3 ft out in the jungle is still terrestrial!) so you want space for them to move around the big leaved plants at the top of the tank. In the wild they usually are up in the canopy higher than all but the most arboreal dart species go. Frogs eat things that move... including other frogs... in a tank that's getting the RETF too close to frogs that are about the right size for food.... If you really want treefrogs in there for for the smaller species like Clown (hyla leucophyllata) and Hourglass (hyla ebraccata) species which stay small enough to be fine with all but the thumbnail sized frogs.

The leucs and auratus have similar enough care requirements that in theory yes, they could be kept together. Mixed species tanks are a touchy subject because they are usually hard to pull off (need a large tank with compatible frogs and the whole breeding aspect....). In low enough densities leucs and auratus will get along, neither being a super aggressive species. The hybrid aspect is a touchy subject in itself, and you could just toss eggs as they are found to keep from getting into that subject.

While I'm on the subject, I wanted to bring up a theory about hybridization and mixed species tanks, it doesn't just occur with a male of one species and a female of another, it can happen when there are mixed sexed breeding groups of both species housed together as well (it used to be believed that if you had proven breeders of one species and proven breeders of another they wouldn't interbreed and this is false). Its not that the leuc would court an auratus when there is the option of other leucs around (differences in call and some breeding behavior would make this unlikely), its that after a pair of one species courts and lays eggs, a male of the other species may come up and fertilize the eggs if one of the parents isn't gaurding them (males of many species gaurd in theory to protect eggs and possibly to keep other males from fertilizing them within the first couple of days). The male of the other species doesn't know what eggs they are, just that they look like dendrobatid eggs, and instinct tells him to get his genes out there by fertilizing the eggs (for the percent that may not have been fertilized by the original male) so he does his thing. Some of the eggs are pure species and some may be hybrids. 

Not all eggs are fertilized during the original courting and I don't know about you guys, but I was always told to leave eggs for 48 hours so they male has a chance to fertilize as many of the eggs as possible.... this implies that he fertilizes eggs when the female isn't around, and "egg parasitism" (one male fertilizing a clutch just laid by a courting pair of frogs, off an article on european common frogs) may not just count for same species, but in this case cross species because the eggs are so similar.


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