# LED light Suggestions



## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

I would love to be able to use an LED light for lighting my vivarium. It is a 10 gallon tank converted into a vertical vivarium.

I have been looking at reef aquarium LED lights but this is probably overkill. Anyone have any suggestions on sleek looking LED lights (Kessils, radions, AI nano, etc) that works well for growing plants?

Thanks


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## austin (Dec 6, 2013)

I have used a finnex planted plus with a lot of success and I have a beamswork fixture on a new setup that seems to be working great! These are both very affordable too.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Look on the Aquatraders website at their beamworks lights. Sleek looking and not to expensive. I have several on my Vivs


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

The color spectrum of marine lighting tends to look horrible over a viv, all purplish. You should be looking at planted tank lighting or traditional viv lighting like jungle dawns.

A small exoterra fixture with a single jungle dawn, the smaller beamswork/evo fixtures from topdogsellers on ebay or aquatraders.com or finnex fugeray and/or stingray, would be the lower cost options I'd look at.

If you want something a bit more fancy a small buildmyled fixture would work, or if you want weather fx maybe a 12" exocotic E series.

There are lots of freshwater nano aquarium or refugium lights out there i didn't name that would work too... but stay away from marine lighting and look in the freshwater planted aquarium sections of websites.

Here is an example that should work well for you...
Clip On LED Aquarium Lighting 6x 3W LED $34.95


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Get one of these 14 watt bulbs

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants-supplies-classifieds/211450-leds-stock.html


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

Thank you all so much for these suggestions. This is exactly what I needed. I did think that the blue-ish coloring of reef fixtures would be a problem but didn't think about trying freshwater.

If I'm going to attempt plants that say needs 1400 lumens, do I need to worry about getting a light that puts out at least that? I ask because some of those beamworks say they are only 600 lumens. Is that a problem? Other than that, I really like the 12" one.


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

I picked one beamswork and one evo to see which one I like better, and I think the Evo is the better of the two. It has 10 3 watt bulbs with lenses on it vs the 33 .5 watt bulbs w/o lenses on the beamswork. The color looks better on the Evo too. It's raised up 2" from the top of a 22" tall viv and after a week all of my broms have colored up awesome (one turned all red that I didn't even know was supposed to be red) and it is even bringing the sphagnum moss on the floor of the viv back to life. Not too shabby for under $40. Check out topdogsellers on ebay. They have 11" clip on style versions of these lights that you could make work with a 10g vert.


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

Also, I'm no expert but from what I've gathered lumens is a measurement of how bright the light looks to the human eye. A good PAR/PUR rating is what you want to grow plants. These LED lights don't look nearly as bright as my CFLs and T5HO's but they have done a MUCH better job in just a short time than the other lights did in a year. Just because they look better to our eyes doesn't mean they're better for the plants. There's a guy that did a review of the cheap leds (beamswork/evo, etc) on theplantedtank and has his PAR data included. If I remember correct, the PAR ratings he listed for the Evo's was in the "high light" range at the substrate level in an aquarium from 24" up.


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

vachyner said:


> Also, I'm no expert but from what I've gathered lumens is a measurement of how bright the light looks to the human eye. A good PAR/PUR rating is what you want to grow plants. These LED lights don't look nearly as bright as my CFLs and T5HO's but they have done a MUCH better job in just a short time than the other lights did in a year. Just because they look better to our eyes doesn't mean they're better for the plants. There's a guy that did a review of the cheap leds (beamswork/evo, etc) on theplantedtank and has his PAR data included. If I remember correct, the PAR ratings he listed for the Evo's was in the "high light" range at the substrate level in an aquarium from 24" up.


Thanks! This helps me a lot. I think I might try one of those EVO clip on ones. It has 6 3watt bulbs. I was also thinking of trying the LED that the one guy advertised on this thread but I'd have to find a fixture for it and no one sells it here locally.


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## jimmy rustles (Mar 10, 2013)

I still cant get my mind around how a led with half the Lumen per Watt as a t5 narva biovital can have a better PAR. That just Sounds so unbelievable. Gotta search for some good websites with decent measurements and explanations.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Just confirming I'm in agreement with vachyner.

If you understand PAR and can get the measurements for a fixture and get your head around all that info it is the best way to go. Lumens as he said is just the brightness to the human eye. We see green best so light might be kinda heavy in the green spectrum having significantly more lumens and look noticably brighter to us, but grow plants less effectively then a bulb with less lumens or even less wattage.

Wattage per gallon is another measure. A lot of people are trying to get away from it now or poo poo it, but I find it is still useful as a starting place for people who aren't as technical minded and are dealing mostly with standard viv plants in standard sized aquariums. 18-24" 1.5-3 watts of of 6500K'ish CFL or T-5 lighting is going to be enough most of the time for plants and look bright to our eyes. Shorter tank, you can probably get away with less. For LEDs that all point the light right at the target instead of radiating it in all directions, usually .75 -2 watts of 6500k'ish lighting is going to be enough PAR for plants and look plenty bright enough in tanks up to 24" tall.

At the very least IMO that puts people who don't have the knowledge and experience and aren't inclined (yet!) to spend hours researching plant photosynthesis spectrums, lighting/ecectrical terminology, and the stats for dozens of specific fixtures... in the ball park


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jimmy rustles said:


> I still cant get my mind around how a led with half the Lumen per Watt as a t5 narva biovital can have a better PAR. That just Sounds so unbelievable. Gotta search for some good websites with decent measurements and explanations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Same company owns both forums so hopefully this is OK
..
LED Lighting Compendium


Basically though lumens only refers to what we see, while PAR is what the plants actually use. We see green best, but plants use mostly light in the red and blue spectrums, so a light can have more of what grows plants (red/blue)but not look as bright to our eyes (we see green best) as another bulb.

Also I'm still learning about PAR and "mols", but I've seen enough stats on fixtures and their "mol units" at different depths of an aquarium and charts on the specific par ranges to keep most plants alive to infer that if you can put 30-75 PAR on the floor of a vivarium you should have enough light to keep most things alive. Planting higher light plants up high and lower light plants low from there will usually be close enough to work most of the time without needing to get a PHD in physics and horticulture


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

Dendro Dave said:


> Just confirming I'm in agreement with vachyner.
> 
> If you understand PAR and can get the measurements for a fixture and get your head around all that info it is the best way to go. Lumens as he said is just the brightness to the human eye. We see green best so light might be kinda heavy in the green spectrum having significantly more lumens and look noticably brighter to us, but grow plants less effectively then a bulb with less lumens or even less wattage.
> 
> ...


Turns out that PAR is something I'm already very familiar with. I use it to measure the light for my reef tank. I didn't know that it would be useful for my viviarium too! I didn't know that lumens was for the human eye though. But it does make a lot more sense when you change PAR from its acronym to its full name - Photosynthetically active radiation. 

I'll have to get on the list for my local reef club to borrow the par meter again. Just for curiousity sake.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jimmy rustles said:


> I still cant get my mind around how a led with half the Lumen per Watt as a t5 narva biovital can have a better PAR. That just Sounds so unbelievable. Gotta search for some good websites with decent measurements and explanations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Same company owns both forums so hopefully this is OK
..
LED Lighting Compendium


Basically though lumens only refers to what we see, while PAR is what the plants actually use. We see green best, but plants use mostly light in the red and blue spectrums sons light can have more of what grows plants but not look as bright to our eyes as another bulb.

The Buildmyled site is also a good resource for learning all about par and stuff. For instance somewhere on there they explain how it is possible for two lights that are both 6500k color temp, but for each bulb to make colors look different to our eyes from other bulb...
What you need to know about the Kelvin color temperature scale | Build My LED - Lighting Discussion Forum

While that is true and fascinating to some, don't freak out. While there may be some subtle difference, especially in a side by side comparison in my 10 years I have yet to see 2 6500k lights that render color so differently that I'm like "Omg!... that looks so horrible compared ton that other 6500k bulb I had". 

Also while I'm still learning about PAR, Ive been able to infer from charts on specific fixtures of PAR at different deoths, charts of the PAR requirements of many plants, and what lights have worked with what plants and tanks for other people, that it seems if you can put 30-65 par on the floor of your vivarium its fairly likely that most stuff will be getting at least enough light to survive, and many viv plants will tolerate 100+ par. One thing to keep in mind is water restricts how far some wavelengths of light travel, so since vivs aren't full of water we can often get away with somewhat less powerful lighting then an aquarium might need for super lush growth.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

nrbelk said:


> Turns out that PAR is something I'm already very familiar with. I use it to measure the light for my reef tank. I didn't know that it would be useful for my viviarium too! I didn't know that lumens was for the human eye though. But it does make a lot more sense when you change PAR from its acronym to its full name - Photosynthetically active radiation.
> 
> I'll have to get on the list for my local reef club to borrow the par meter again. Just for curiousity sake.


Yup, reef keeping is a life saver in this hobby 

I'm glad you mentioned your reef club, by the way. I totally forgot that mine has a PAR meter, too! Maybe I can grab that thing and test it on a couple of my vivs....

John


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I have both Evo and the screw-in LED arrays (I bought them from the link that julio provided and I am very happy so far) over my tanks. I also have a variety of 6500ish K screw-in compact fluorescent bulbs working on other tanks. Of all of the lighting that I have, I (and the plants in the tanks) am happy with the LEDs (Evo and twist-in LEDs). The spectrum looks really nice to my eye and the plants seem happy, too. Just my $0.02.

Mark


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

nrbelk said:


> I would love to be able to use an LED light for lighting my vivarium. It is a 10 gallon tank converted into a vertical vivarium.
> 
> I have been looking at reef aquarium LED lights but this is probably overkill. Anyone have any suggestions on sleek looking LED lights (Kessils, radions, AI nano, etc) that works well for growing plants?
> 
> Thanks


I am from the reef hobby also and use two Kessil A350w tuna blues. It is not that reef lighting is overkill just not the best spectrum for growing plants like said above. Kessil makes the A150 amazon sun which would work really well it just depends on your budget. I also think the pendant would look pretty sleek. Otherwise if your budget is lower then I would suggest NEHERP Jungle Dawn LEDs.
New England Herpetoculture LLC - Bulbs (Vivarium)


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

jturner said:


> I am from the reef hobby also and use two Kessil A350w tuna blues. It is not that reef lighting is overkill just not the best spectrum for growing plants like said above. Kessil makes the A150 amazon sun which would work really well it just depends on your budget. I also think the pendant would look pretty good. Otherwise if your budget is lower then I would suggest NEHERP Jungle Dawn LEDs.
> New England Herpetoculture LLC - Bulbs (Vivarium)


The NEherp ones are good, but if you want an even better deal, check out the ones Julio linked!


Julio said:


> Get one of these 14 watt bulbs
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants-supplies-classifieds/211450-leds-stock.html


John


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Just wanted to throw out there why I recommend jungle dawns over some of the cheaper but similar style lights. First From the what I understand Todd specifies that they use some higher quality components (he speaks Chinese) then what they would normally use in that bulb style.

I got some of the cheaper Cobb style bulbs and put them in an aluminum flukers strip light. This wasn't really smart of me since Todd advises better airflow then that, but I can tell you the 2 cheapos fried under those conditions in a few months. One JD eventually failed but lasted several times longer then the cheaper light. I think I got over a year out of it. The other JD is still in the same fixture and working. 

So 2 sets of bulbs in less then ideal fixtures and in one of the hotter rooms in my house, but in those less then ideal conditions the 2 JDs were far more durable.

Small sample size, and I'm not saying the others won't last, especially if care is taken not to subject them to more heat then you have to, just that from what I'm told and what I've seen the JDs are better engineered. Oh I pulled the guts out of the generic that failed and the one JD that eventuality failed... the JD's stuff was heavier and bulkier, which IMO likely means it was the good stuff like Todd said.

So no crapping on anyone's product, just saying there is a good reason it seems IMO for the JD's to cost more.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Good point Dave. LEDs are basically a case of "you get what you pay for", but I have yet to have an LED die on me and I've used both the Josh's Frogs and Jungle Dawn versions. The JF is about a year old and the JD is close to three. The JD is a bit heavier and sturdier. The little plastic tabs that keep the unit attached to the base on my JF actually broke (I dropped it way too many times), but the light still works fine and I just have to duct tape it back together....

It is also worth noting that even if some lights are cheaper, they often have a one year warranty and are still way cheaper than replacing T5s every 6-10 months.

John


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## Kevin_T82 (Aug 10, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> Here is an example that should work well for you...
> Clip On LED Aquarium Lighting 6x 3W LED $34.95


Do you think this would be strong enough to reach 20-21" into my 24" tall vivarium?

Sorry, didnt read far enough.


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## Kevin_T82 (Aug 10, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> Well a 10gal is 20" lonlong, so as vert it should be the same height. Factor in an inch or two for drainage layer and 2inches of soil and the blight should only nrmeed to penetrate about 16 inches. With a18 watts and those optics over the LEDs it shoud be as long as you don't plant something that casts a big shadow over the floor.keep plants that may do that like large broke other big leaved plants in the back corners or along the back there isn't much of a canopy blocking the LEDs closer to the middle/front of the vivs. Plant type and placement can make all the difference.


Ok, I have a 18x18x24" vivarium with a false bottom, 2-3" of NEHERP mix. Most plants are broms to be mounted on background, one fern and creeping fig.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Kevin_T82 said:


> Do you think this would be strong enough to reach 20-21" into my 24" tall vivarium?
> 
> Sorry, didnt read far enough.


Well a 10gal is 20" long, so as vert it should be the same height. Factor in an inch or two for drainage layer and 2inches of soil and the light should only need to penetrate about 15-16 inches.

With a18 watts and those optics over the LEDs it shoud be as long as you don't plant something that casts a big shadow over the most of the floor. Keep plants that may do that like large broms or other big leaved plants in the back corners or along the back there isn't much of a canopy blocking the LEDs closer to the middle/front of the vivs. Plant type and placement can make all the difference. But 18watts of led lighting all pointing straight down puts you well into what should be plenty of light in a tank that size/height. IMO


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Kevin_T82 said:


> Ok, I have a 18x18x24" vivarium with a false bottom, 2-3" of NEHERP mix. Most plants are broms to be mounted on background, one fern and creeping fig.


OK I'm confused, is this the 10? Or a different tank? Because 18x18x24 is 33gallon. OK never mind I just figured out I was trying to answer to different questions from 2 different people. That's what happens when trying to do this lying in bed drinking a beer and taking ambien. 

On a 33gal 24" high tank I would want around 1 watt per gallon. With most 6500k'ish LEDs that should put you in the balk park of at least 30 par on the floor. Plant low light plants low, and highet light plants higher (because they get more par closer to the light)


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## Kevin_T82 (Aug 10, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> OK I'm confused, is this the 10? Or a different tank? Because 18x18x24 is 33gallon.
> 
> On a 33gal 24" high tank I would want around 1 watt per gallon. With most 6500k'ish LEDs that should put you in the balk park of at least 30 par on the floor. Plant low light plants low, and highet light plants higher (because they get more par closer to the light)


I'm not the OP  If that is were the confusion started. 

The space between light and the floor of my vivarium will be a maximum of 18 inches at the front of tank. The back of my tank will be closer for I'm sloping my 'soil' area towards the front of the tank.


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

Kevin, the evo I described is great. I have it on my DIY 17x17x22 raised up 2" from the top. It is the 18" x 3w 6500k one from topdogseller on eBay. It is powerful enough to color up broms well and bring sphagnum back to life in the substrate. Its $39 shipped. The advantage to these over screw ins for a new setup is its a one shot one kill deal. With screw ins you're out $50 for the bulb (factor shipping) and you still need to go buy a hood.


Sent from my SGH-i677 using Tapatalk


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

I went with the 11" EVO. It only has 6 3watt LEDs so we'll see if its powerful enough. 

I would have really liked to see one that had 9, but the next step up was the 18" which is too big for me.


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

If its not big enough, they have a 20 3watt LED one that I could try. Might be overkill at that point though lol.


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

It should be fine. Those extra LEDs span out to cover a wider tank. Since its only a 10g vert the 6 3w bulbs should all you'll need.


Sent from my SGH-i677 using Tapatalk


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## Kevin_T82 (Aug 10, 2009)

vachyner said:


> Kevin, the evo I described is great. I have it on my DIY 17x17x22 raised up 2" from the top. It is the 18" x 3w 6500k one from topdogseller on eBay. It is powerful enough to color up broms well and bring sphagnum back to life in the substrate. Its $39 shipped. The advantage to these over screw ins for a new setup is its a one shot one kill deal. With screw ins you're out $50 for the bulb (factor shipping) and you still need to go buy a hood.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SGH-i677 using Tapatalk


I was looking at the evo 18," does the actinic give the vivarium a weird hue? I know plants use blue and red wave lengths. Just wondering if it throws the color that I see off.


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

Not sure, I got the one that only has 6500k lights. If you look under the plant sub menu on the sellers page you'll find it.


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

Dendro Dave said:


> While that is true and fascinating to some, don't freak out. While there may be some subtle difference, especially in a side by side comparison in my 10 years I have yet to see 2 6500k lights that render color so differently that I'm like "Omg!... that looks so horrible compared ton that other 6500k bulb I had".


Hi there,

Unfortunately I definitely have seen lights with near-identical Kelvin ratings and very, very different color renditions. Do not trust Kelvin to tell you anything about color or how well it grows plants (a myth that is nearly universally accepted in the aquarium hobby--especially freshwater--but is refreshingly absent from most lighting discussions here ).

One more thing to add that nobody has brought up in this discussion: DISCO. This is a big issue with LED lights in terrarium/vivarium/paludarium setups because many aquarium fixtures run multiple colors of LEDs...and colors don't mix the same way in air as they do in water, which means you end up with multi-colored shadows thrown all over the back and bottom of your setup. Probably not the natural look for which most hobbyists aim!

The only way to minimize disco with LEDs is to run a fixture that is either all daylight LEDs, or daylight LEDs with just one other color. Once you get to three colors of LEDs there will be disco, and I can spot it with just two (but it's mild).

Cheers,

Cara


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Good insights, Cara. 
I agree that Kelvin rating is no guarantee of a particular "look." It is an aggregate measure of a complex spectrum of color values. What I have learned, however, is that if the Kelvin rating is very far off of 6500, especially on the low side, it is an excellent indicator of what WILL NOT look good in a terrarium/vivarium  I have never seen anything less than 5000K that would look good in a viv. It still might grow plants just fine, but it looks terrible to my eye.

Mark


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Dr.Hoatzin said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Unfortunately I definitely have seen lights with near-identical Kelvin ratings and very, very different color renditions. Do not trust Kelvin to tell you anything about color or how well it grows plants (a myth that is nearly universally accepted in the aquarium hobby--especially freshwater--but is refreshingly absent from most lighting discussions here ).
> 
> ...


Good points on air vs water, and disco. Also my experience is limited to the various cfls, t-5, t-8, and a few leds I've had from walmart, lowes, and home depot, various pet stores or seen.. and my subjective opinion, usually with out the benefit of a side by side comparison. 

I've never tried it, but wouldn't a diffuser work to limit disco?
Buildmyled has what looks like some kinda lenticular diffuser, but sadly I don't have one (yet!), so I've never gotten an up close look 

BTW they are in Austin, you obviously know lighting, and they have a Cara... coincidence? 




Encyclia said:


> Good insights, Cara.
> I agree that Kelvin rating is no guarantee of a particular "look." It is an aggregate measure of a complex spectrum of color values. What I have learned, however, is that if the Kelvin rating is very far off of 6500, especially on the low side, it is an excellent indicator of what WILL NOT look good in a terrarium/vivarium  I have never seen anything less than 5000K that would look good in a viv. It still might grow plants just fine, but it looks terrible to my eye.
> 
> Mark


Also agreed, and my experience has been similar from the lights I have personally seen or owned. From what I've seen 5000k was about as low as I could tolerate, and 8000k would probably be as high as I could tolerate... Maybe. 

It would have to probably be one of those quirky ones of that color temp that somehow magically happens to render color in a way my eyes would prefer over most other 7500-8000k bulbs. 

P.S. We are the elitist scum of the reptile/amphibian world, and I believe we have it in us to rival the planted tank and reef crowd too... I envision a day when we are as picky about spectrum and color temp as reefers... Tweaking everything to bring out colors of specific flowers or frogs


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

I totally agree that Kelvin rating is definitely not something to rely on when choosing lights but it is still very often a good indicator when hobbyists try to look for lighting made for aquariums to use in a viv. You wouldn't use a marine tank light rated at 15,000K for a vivarium because first it wouldn't look good and second it is a waste to have so much blue light to grow plants. Basically I think that Kelvin is a good indicator of the general color of the light but your purchase should not be based totally on Kelvin rating.

The disco ball effect is definitely an issue when trying to light long tanks with evenly spaced LEDs with a range of colors. I would like to add that their are a number of options out their that use a dense matrix of LEDs or at least arrange the diodes in clusters and this along with sometimes the addition of some optics can almost completely eliminate the disco ball effect even with a wide range of different colors. Some of the nicer fixtures available are definitely more pricy but if anyone decides to go the DIY LED route it may be a good idea to arrange diodes in more densely packed clusters to try to minimize the effect. When tanks, especially longer ones, are lit with the more common style fixtures which use diodes that more evenly spaced the Disco effect is more of an issue and is harder to get rid of. Sometimes using certain diffusers or some types of lenses can help this.


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

Hi Dendro Dave et. al,

Not a coincidence!  I've been skulking around this forum for a few years but am finally in the process of building my first paludarium, and all credit for the parts of it that turn out well go to the generous build logs of folks here.

I'm actually at the point where I'm starting to think companies label Kelvin according to the color rendition they see and the market they're targeting, rather than the other way around. Because despite having seen a few thousand lights and a hundred or so spectrums, I still cannot accurately predict Kelvin based on simply looking at the light...I saw a really nice one recently that I guessed at being 6600K. It was actually nearly 13,000K.  Maybe I should carry a meter into the stores and carry out some surreptitious testing.

Many of you have put the same consideration (and resources) into these setups as reef hobbyists put into theirs--you should be particular about spectrums and color rendition! It's just trickier when your light isn't diffusing through water.

Quick point: blue light isn't a waste to grow plants, it's the more photosynthetically active of your two big absorption peaks for the main pigments. Although too much blue won't look terribly attractive to our eyes, it's great for the plants.

Tightly-packed clusters can help to blend multiple colors of LEDs, with the trade-off that you'll then have a hotspot (aka "cone of light") and significant drop-off to the sides. Cluster-style lights work very well on cube and column tanks but produce irregular, less uniform lighting on longer tanks. So the shape of the enclosure will affect your optimal lighting choices for the setup.

Now back to cruising pics of setups....

Cheers,

Cara


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## jturner (Nov 26, 2014)

Dr.Hoatzin said:


> Hi Dendro Dave et. al,
> 
> Not a coincidence!  I've been skulking around this forum for a few years but am finally in the process of building my first paludarium, and all credit for the parts of it that turn out well go to the generous build logs of folks here.
> 
> ...


I think I worded the part about too much blue light being a waste. How I look at it is I guess sort of like a chemical equation with a limiting reactant. The spikes of photosynthetic activity are in the blue and red wavelengths. If you give the average green plant tons of blue and a bit of white light (all wavelengths) the plant won't grow as well then if you used some of the power that you put into the light to create a fuller spectrum with a spike in the red wavelength area. 

As for clustering the LEDs you will get hotspots which can be minimized by raising the light higher or using lenses but I guess it is still a tradeoff better color blending and dealing with hotspots or more spread out coverage with the disco ball effect.


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

Yep, the whole process of creating a spectrum is a game of trade-offs. And I wholeheartedly agree on the "well-rounded spectrum" vs. "too much blue" issue...it's not mentioned as much in this hobby vs. horticulture, where plenty of companies are selling lights that run only blues and reds, targeting only peak absorption wavelengths instead of providing a well-rounded full spectrum. You can definitely bump up PAR with some extra blues and reds, but an all blue/red spectrum is not going to hit all the accessory pigments.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Dr.Hoatzin said:


> Hi Dendro Dave et. al,
> 
> Not a coincidence!  I've been skulking around this forum for a few years but am finally in the process of building my first paludarium, and all credit for the parts of it that turn out well go to the generous build logs of folks here.
> 
> ...


Cool I'm glad we've gotten our clutches into you. Be welcome! Anyways I toyed with the create spectrum tool and managed to get 6700k config with 99CRI but I'm not sure that it would have worked without a lot of diso
I am really curious to see A 5000-6500k light with 97-99 CRI over a viv minus the disco effect. I think about the best we ever get is in the 80's. Oh well, maybe someday. 

If you need testers with viv experience hit me up.... I work for LEDs  Sadly i was to broke to get in on the recent MC beta test ;(

I'd also still like to try that solunar controller. I hear it has a secret storm mode, and I'm all about that stuff for vivs (check my multiple fx themed threads)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/search.php?searchid=9214833

Here are my flickrs Cara if you wanna see the collected works of Dendro Dave the last 10 years...
Newer...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]

Older...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


Sample:









Have fun cruising


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

Ooooh, thank you Dave! The first link didn't work for me but I checked out the other two...turns out I've stalked your pal/viv setups before!  By any chance are you the person I've spoken with who was very insistent on wanting thunder sounds to go with their controller's lightning storm effects? (I still don't know of anyone who does that...think a custom Arduino build might be the best bet.) The SOLunar already has an effect for lightning/storm mode--I'll see if I can play around with it and get some video this weekend to post on our Youtube channel. There are other settings we'll be adding in upgrades, but this one's already in there.

I know there's a lot of focus on CRI, but high CRI isn't as desirable as you might imagine because it affects the color rendition. High CRI lighting tends to look flat...at lacks the saturation and "pop" of slightly lower CRI setups. We have a very high CRI spectrum on our Hort side, but if we put it up against our aquarium spectrums in a "blind" review with hobbyists it'll never win against our other spectrums. It'll also look less visually bright as a high CRI spectrum has to run far reds and UV, which does nothing for the human viewer. I compare it to photography: that photo you shot at noon may look good, but if you nudge the saturation just a bit in post-production your eyes will like it better.

Of course all our eyes (and our aesthetic preferences) are slightly different too...that's what keeps this challenging! There will never be one perfect light for all people over all setups. I've designed a few spectrums for folks with red-green color blindness, which was interesting!

Cheers,

Cara


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

First link was just to the part of my profile that listed my threads. Was trying to save you leg work. Not sure why it didnt work, maybe because I was logged in when I went to and copied the Url?.

Oh and Ya... that was probably me . I'm Dendro Dave on the BML forum and Dmarksvr on planted tank. I posted a bunch of ideas about special fx lighting with sound and the vids with the firefly lights and quasi holographic plasma lightning for vivs/aquariums  I also wrote some of the lighting companies and viv/frog forum Admins trying to facilitate more dialog or sponsorship. We aren't as big as the aquarium hobby, but we're growing and there is a lot of overlap with the planted tank crowd. Seems like we are an emerging market... plus I've been trying to put ideas in people heads so I can just buy the things I want that don't exist yet instead of doing my ghetto McGyver thang 

With how cheap MP3 players and other consumer electronics have gotten with the needed tech, like decades old sound responsive novelty lights... I'm amazed someone hasn't jammed a cheap MP3 player/speaker with sound loop with timer and sound response into a fixture or controller... Or even just an on/off remote version. Basically just building a cheap sound therapy/mp3 alarm clock into a budget friendly fixture or controller. Could add SD card, blue tooth, WiFi/web/phone app features to higher end version.

Bluefish is the only one I know of that has some kinda sound feature right now. I think I heard rumors that other manufactures of lights and/or controllers may have something in the works, and a few individuals working on arduino based stuff with sound features... I think it is inevitable that it catches on.

My curiosity about the high CRI in a 6500k'ish light was because I'd seen that a lot of soft white lights had higher CRI then "daylight" bulbs but of course everything looks orange. So I wondered if you could get that high CRI in a plant/frog viewing friendly bulb and if it might make things look like high def/ultra real; making things "pop" beyond simple increased saturation... I think you just dashed my hopes  

Oh cool about the spectrums for color deficiency. I lucked out and it seems according to multiple tests I am not, thankfully, How about trying a mix for impossile colors?  ...
Train yourself to see impossible colors


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

Hi Dave,

How 'bout I firm up my statements with some evidence? My paludarium won't be finished for another week or two, but once it is I'd be happy to shoot some pics of our high-CRI spectrum in comparison to the spectrum I'll be using (our new orchid light). If I see disco, I'll photograph it...and if the high-CRI light looks better I'll get to eat my words.  Should be an interesting experiment.

I've been pushing for us to become a sponsor here for the past year...we'll see if it happens. Right now I comprise 96% of the customer service department so, realistically, I may not have time to handle another forum. But I'll keep trying. In the meantime I send every person who asks about paludariums, orchids, viv's, and so on here because this is the best resource I've found for them.

Back to the grindstone that provides the funds for these hobbies!

Cheers,

Cara


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## Nick_ (Mar 24, 2008)

I have had great sucess with 10 watt security lights, also the 20 and 50 watt ones. 
You dont get all the bells and whistles but I have 7 planted tanks going with them. The oldest fixture is going on one year, I can report decent growth on my limited plants, a fireball brom, wandering jew, asparagus fern, and more.

Being in the reef hobby for over a decade now, I can saftley say that people hype up the spectrum coverage without first hand exp. or blundered attempts. 
A simple 10 watt led with a color temp from 4500-6k will grow a wide variety of nice plants.

Bty you can now pickup 6k 10watt leds for about $9.....the whole fixture you just have to wire it.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Dr.Hoatzin said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> How 'bout I firm up my statements with some evidence? My paludarium won't be finished for another week or two, but once it is I'd be happy to shoot some pics of our high-CRI spectrum in comparison to the spectrum I'll be using (our new orchid light). If I see disco, I'll photograph it...and if the high-CRI light looks better I'll get to eat my words.  Should be an interesting experiment.
> 
> ...


You're way more knowledgeable/experienced on then this lighting stuff then me, so I won't be betting against you  .. but I look forward to seeing how it works out.

96%? ...Man make them give you a raise and/or higher some help, cuz I don't frequent half the aquarium forums and I've seen a lot of posts from you and lots of good things said about you. In fact other then Lowe from finnex and our man Todd owner of light your reptiles, you're the only lighting person I know by name 

I'll cross my fingers on BML showing the froggers some love too


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## Nick_ (Mar 24, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> You're way more knowledgeable/experienced on then this lighting stuff then me, so I won't be betting against you  .. but I look forward to seeing how it works out.
> 
> 96%? ...Man make them give you a raise and/or higher some help, cuz I don't frequent half the aquarium forums and I've seen a lot of posts from you and lots of good things said about you. In fact other then Lowe from finnex and our man Todd owner of light your reptiles, you're the only lighting person I know by name
> 
> I'll cross my fingers on BML showing the froggers some love too


I have BML over my reef on a custom spectrum with excellent growth even in sps. about 48 watts peak and avg running @ 30 watts over a 24gallon cube. The ballasts went out in about 9 months, but I think they are using ballasts from a different company now.


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

Hey Nick,

I hear good things about using floodlights too, as far as growth goes, and have recommended that path to a few folks. Whether we're talking reef, freshwater, or emersed photosynthesizers, there will always be folks out there who prefer to build their own units or go with the lowest cost possible, and there will also be plenty of folk who've sunk a good deal of time and expense into their setups and want a very particular color rendition and guaranteed PAR. Different goals, but as long as you're happy with the results then it's good. I don't judge the choices of hobbyists--this is an optional and often expensive endeavor--but I do judge manufacturers. I want them to stop pushing myths to make sales, and provide more of the necessary info and data for us to make educated decisions. There may be less snake oil than a few years ago, but there's still plenty of it out there.

Cheers,

Cara


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## Nick_ (Mar 24, 2008)

Dr.Hoatzin said:


> Hey Nick,
> 
> I hear good things about using floodlights too, as far as growth goes, and have recommended that path to a few folks. Whether we're talking reef, freshwater, or emersed photosynthesizers, there will always be folks out there who prefer to build their own units or go with the lowest cost possible, and there will also be plenty of folk who've sunk a good deal of time and expense into their setups and want a very particular color rendition and guaranteed PAR. Different goals, but as long as you're happy with the results then it's good. I don't judge the choices of hobbyists--this is an optional and often expensive endeavor--but I do judge manufacturers. I want them to stop pushing myths to make sales, and provide more of the necessary info and data for us to make educated decisions. There may be less snake oil than a few years ago, but there's still plenty of it out there.
> 
> ...


Very well put!
I have used radion xr15's, and the original solaris over the years. In fact I plan on trying out the new AI prime when it arrives...this will be particularly exciting as it will be fully controllable and affordable. I still remember the original adds comparing to original LED as a MH replacement, many claiming 250 and 450 watt equivelants. Fast forwarding to now I cannot wait to see the lights that will come out over the years. Imagine if we brought big led to the US as some companies are with battery and solar manufacturing plants


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

Yeah, there were a lot of folks selling extremely poor quality LED setups early on with fantastical promises and extremely poor delivery...it's what soured so many hobbyists on LEDs and started the "LEDs can't grow ______" rumours. It's getting better and better, though--you should see what's coming through the pipeline for LEDs in horticulture these days.

Now if the LED manufacturers will just get to building bigger wafers to drop the prices even further...! Then again, I think back to the days when I ran MH's, whose bulbs cost $100 to replace at 12-month intervals and it doesn't seem so bad anymore. Plus I don't burn and scar myself when I accidentally bump into a running LED unit.

Got any favourites among the LED floodlights that you've used? A friend of mine just pulled all his bonsai in for the winter and I'm not going to recommend $1,000 of lighting for just two months use annually.

Cheers,

Cara


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