# who keeps Phyllomedusas?



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I love these frogs and am looking forward to working with more. At the moment I am only keeping a pair of bicolors but I am expecting to get three or four sauvagii next week and mabey even another kind as well. Its to bad more of these are not common in the hobby and the few that are pretty much are only in the hands of a small number of people. But I would love to hear what you are keeping and how they are doing for you and pics of your set ups.


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

I have three P. bicolor. Got them in Daytona from Mike Novy who bred them from WC parents. Mine are little guys. Lets see... I got them August 18 and they were ten days out of the water then, so that would make them about six weeks old.
These guys are strictly nocturnal. During the day they are in a comatose state, like a wad of blue chewing gum stuck to a pothos leaf. I have the three in a ten gallon tank, screen top 75% covered, planted heavily with pothos clippings, magnolia leaf litter, a bowl of water. 
I was a little concerned the first couple weeks I had them as I had never actually witnessed them feed even though they left some droppings here and there. It wasn't until I snuck in after midnight with a flashlight I actually witnessed one snatch a cricket.
How are you feeding yours ? How do you ensure they are getting enough calcium and vitamins. I dust their crickets but because it may be hours before they eat them I wonder if they are getting the supplementation they need. These guys are not aggressive feeders. They seem to sit in one spot and wait for the prey to come within striking distance. Unlike my other tree frogs they don't feed during daylight hours. 
Here's a recent picture:









George


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Hey George its great to see you got those from Mike. I have talked to him and he is a great guy. I cant wait to see all these cb bicolor full grown. The best thing you can do to make sure they are getting there nutrition if you are worried that the crickets are loosing the dust before they get to them is to GUT LOAD. What you want to do is feed your crickets 24hrs or so before you feed them to your frogs. You can buy special food full of good stuff just to be fed to crickets that will in turn pass it on to your frogs. Just look for the stuff at your local pet store there are a couple different styles. Or you can also just straight up feed your crickets a variety off fruits and vegetables.

Heres my bicolors in a 55 vert


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

Greaser, were you the one that post that tank in another thread about the bicolors that Corey (kerokero) had a lot to say about the frogs? Your tank is simple but well done. You got the big leaves thing just right.

Mike Novy, and also do a search for Ed Clark (or PM me for it). CB P. sauvagii and bicolors. You're right about the seemingly comatose state they're in during the day -- same with Red Eyeds. I have been considering getting some bicolors for when I complete my big tank, but I think I'm going to stick to my Rhacophoridae projects. I have tendency to deviate from one project when something pretty pops up in the market (like P. bicolors) or exotic mantids (I. diabolica). Good luck with your frogs guys, and post more pictures!


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

When I think of "verts" I don't usually picture a 55 gallon tank, but yours is very nicely done! I assume you have adequate ventilation on the front panel. Mike tells me they like plenty ventilation. In fact they are quite well adapted to retain water. Almost as well as some desert reptiles according to the research I have done on them. They are also uricotelic which I find fascinating in an amphibian.
Yes the gutloading is the most sensible solution. I am used to seeing all my dart frogs, gray and green tree frogs, and toads feed almost immediately. So it is sort of unsettling for me to just assume that the bicolors are eating. Anyway I started putting a small bowl of food in the tank for the few surviving crickets that always make it through the first night. 
George


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

George, I too found their water retention very interesting. The P. sauvagii seemed to live in semi-arid regions and could go weeks without water based on my research, and I read similar for P. bicolors. But, the way Mike Novy kept them has proven to be easier than I once thought, which was 100 degree dry conditions! I guess he transitions the young to live drier/warmer as they age, but for now he keeps them mid 70's and pretty humid, which is easier for experienced frog keepers.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

lacerta said:


> When I think of "verts" I don't usually picture a 55 gallon tank, but yours is very nicely done! I assume you have adequate ventilation on the front panel. Mike tells me they like plenty ventilation. In fact they are quite well adapted to retain water. Almost as well as some desert reptiles according to the research I have done on them. They are also uricotelic which I find fascinating in an amphibian.
> Yes the gutloading is the most sensible solution. I am used to seeing all my dart frogs, gray and green tree frogs, and toads feed almost immediately. So it is sort of unsettling for me to just assume that the bicolors are eating. Anyway I started putting a small bowl of food in the tank for the few surviving crickets that always make it through the first night.
> George


yeah the ventilation in the tank is pretty good. I built in a screen section on the top and I rarely mist. 


what does it mean that they are " uricotelic"


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

Hi, i'm keeping Hylomantis (Phyllomedusa) lemur. Great little frogs that i've seen moving around out day-time too. They really have extraordinary BIG eyes.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yeah, they are great frogs, but not available in the US anymore 

I love Greasers' tank, just think it should be bigger 

The interesting bit about the humidity with the bicolor has a lot to do with how they live their lives... adults are up in the high canopy, which being above the layer of trees that holds in the humidity, can be very hot and dry - very similar to the sauvagii. When breeding, they do breed at the forest floor (thus the raised humidity and rainchamber deal), and the froglets likely morph out and gradually move up the layers of the rainforest as they age, thus the higher humidity needs when younger. During the majority of the year they should be rather dry tho... I think many bicolor end up not doing well because people think they are from rainforests, and treat them like tomos... and they develop infections because of it.

Food wise... ideally you'd want to bowl feed... after a while the frogs figure it out and will head down to the food bowl at night. The sooner they do that, the sooner they will start picking up the dusted food items (crickets, roaches, etc). I also like to put the food bowl in the tank after they've become active, often before I go to sleep. This isn't as fun with spastic little bottle rocket treefrogs (thank god I moved them into a front opening tanks and they are more used to me so I have less issues now) but works well with the less spastic and slower moving nocturnal treefrogs. When they are up and active already, they tend to be much better about responding to the food in the bowl. I haven't done this with bicolor (a food bowl of crickets was just left in the tank at the end of the day and it was empty in the morning) but evidence suggests they are pretty good about it when they figure out the bowl.

I've always been a fan of P. tomopterna, but haven't kept any in a long while. Only so much treefrog space, and I've got other projects going right now.


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

Greaser says:


> what does it mean that they are " uricotelic"


Their kidney function is similar to lizards and birds in that they produce uric acid as a waste product. This is a water conserving strategy (and a weight issue for birds) because it doesn't require copious amounts of fluid to void the waste as in ammonia or urea/urine. Uric acid is relatively non toxic and can be stored and voided as a semi-solid. 

Thanks Corey for the husbandry information. I'll start using a food bowl tonight. Hopefully a smooth-sided porcelain bowl should work in confining the 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch crix.

I have been placing a shallow bowl of water in their tank as suggested by Mike. Though I have a screen top I keep it about 75% covered. I keep the sphagnum substrate just moist enough to keep the pothos clippings alive, which equates to spritzing the tank a few times per week. I avoid directly spraying the frogs. The frogs visit the water bowl every night, and have begun to defecate in it. That makes it sort of easy to clean up after them.

George


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The only things I'd say to remember about the bowls... make sure the frogs can't tip them! They are hefty buggers 

Usually the crickets put in the bowls have their hoppers pinched so they don't get out of the bowl - this is a bit hard for the smaller crickets tho (I know this gets tedious as I do that size right now for my TFs). With hoppers the crickets will eventually just get out and roam the tank - what you don't want (I usually just do this as I watch TV... plastic fish bag for the crickets I want to nip, then just put them in the feed bowl when I pinch their hoppers). Count out a certain amount of crickets, and just grab them, pinch the hoppers with your nails (sometimes the whole leg will come off... it's a defensive thing) and they won't be able to get out of the bowl. Using non-glass climbing roaches are also handy and less work all around.


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

I've wanted to cut/break off my cricket hind legs in the past, but I figured the legs would be a big part of the meal, and cutting two off might be depriving the frog of nutrients. You don't think so?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Pinching of the legs doesn't involve taking them off... the idea is to pinch the hind legs so they are broken and useless for hopping... not cutting them off. Sometimes the legs will partially or totally come off, as I mentioned it's a defense thing, but a small part of the percentage. And I don't think some missing legs are depriving it of much nutrients, not compared to what is in the body (where all the nice juicy insides are).


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## lacerta (Aug 27, 2004)

I do the same thing to locusts when I feed my toads. I use a pair of surgical scissors and snip 'em at the knees. A clean cut is less traumatic and you are unlikely to get the autotomic loss as you described. It will be interesting to see how this works with smaller size crix. Thanks.

George


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

Yeah, I guess my concern was the whole leg falling off when trying to do anything with it. Thanks for clarifying.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Sadly, i only have a couple now, but i have kept sauvagei, bicolor, vaillanti, hypochondrialis, tomopterna, etc.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Hey Derek how many people do you of working with vaillanti now? WHere did you get your4s from when you kept tyhem.


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## jmcc000 (Apr 7, 2005)

I just picked up 5 savaugii from Mike. Awesome little guys, about the size of a quarter.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

you got them from mike Novy? He is a really cool guy. Im sending him a $ order for three of them tomorrow. I really really cant wait to get my hands on this species. FIve is a lot of mouths to feed man! I was thinking about mabey getting four but saugavii can eat ALOT! I just started getting into frogs that eat crickets and not ffs. And cricket $ starts to add up fast, so im gonna end up with 7 frogs that eat crickets! All big eaters. 


How are you gonna have them set up?


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Makes me want some more sauvagei now. Rreminds me of the old babies I had.


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## jmcc000 (Apr 7, 2005)

Greaser, Greg right?
Yep they are from Mike. Have you ever tried raising Roaches? That what im doing for these, my red eyes, and my future Bicolor from mike. They are super easy to breed and you can gutload them just as easy as crix.
Right now i have them set up in kritter keepers with a papertowel on the bottom some fake vines and a water bowl. When they get a bit older im gonna use a tub sink with a coated wire for the top (the wire was Corey's idea. Ill most likely go with the double tub sink for more room.
Jason


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

*Female P.bicolor needs a new home....*

I have been debating this with myself as I would love to set up a big tank full....and I know this isn't the correct forum but I like the idea of folks who already keep these frogs. If no one bites here I will likely post in classifieds.

I have a HUGE, fat WC P. bicolor which I am pretty convinced is a female (size and no thumb darkening) which I haven't been able to give the time she deserves. She has been in my care for about a year now and is doing great, however she has not been deparasitized and I am sure carries some load. My tank setup keeps her away from most parasitic reinfection so this likely has kept her load within natural levels. 

I hate to give her up as I love these frogs and a large, healthy female has been hard for me to find but I am extremely busy at the moment and just want her to be in good hands where she will get the attention she deserves.

I will post some photo's next week when I get back in town and would love to do a pdf trade if possible. The main goal however is to get her into the hands of someone who will put the time into her.

Thanks,

Chris


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2006)

Cool thread. I've been into phyllos for about 5 years now, and I currently keep a bunch. I've got groups of bicolor, hypochondrialis, tomopterna, and vaillanti. I also keep several species of agalychnis (callidryas, annae, and moreletii). Don't even ask about the cricket food bill!! As for the vaillanti, so far I haven't been successful in breeding them. I used keep the 3.1 group together. I'd put them in a rain chamber, where I'd get amplexus, but never any eggs. Interestingly, one of the males would amplex the female for no apparent reason, even during the 'dry season'. So last year I separated the female, keeping her alone until introducing her to the males in the rain chamber last spring. This last time the pair did produce eggs, but they were infertile. Bummer. Hopefully this year will be better. Anyone have any additional advice/tips? I've read vaillanti tads school like fish, which would be interesting to observe.

Here's a pic of the vaillanti in the rain chamber


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

When I kept vaillanti, i think I first got them, because of their rarity, which was mydownfall for sure. Although I did attempt to cycle them, i sold them off, mainly because they were easily the most boring frog that I had ever owned and really not that visually attractive. Even compared to sauvagei that can sit on a branch motionless for 3 days, these guys would just plant themselves on a leaf or on the ground and not move. They have somewhat cool patterns between their legs such as purple and orange, but easily trounced by tomopterna/hypochondrialis. Overall I was dissapointed I guess. Would I get them again when i have more room? Sure to see if my group was a bunch of flukes or what...

They always reminded me of gremlins:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's good that you got eggs in the first place! Talk a bit to some of the other Phyllomedusa breeders... hard cycling helps, but if they were infertile, maybe something else needs to be done... where all the males in there? Did they go in the rainchamber first and set up shop, or where they all introduced at the same time? Sometimes introducing the males a few days or weeks before helps... males normally show up well before the females at the breeding spots anyways. The females need the hard cycling to produce eggs, but maybe getting the males to the breeding spot "first" might get them more in gear for breeding and better about fertilizing.

Tom - have you had succes with your annae? I've been looking into a group but the last time they were available was back when I was moving. Now I'm stable and set up... and they are no where to be found. I love the morellets, but worry about their large size with the tanks I'm using for my treefrogs (30g front openings from glasscages.com).


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

> I love the morellets, but worry about their large size with the tanks I'm using for my treefrogs (30g front openings from glasscages.com).


They're awesome frogs, some of my favorite I keep. My group of five have been in that exact size cage (30 front opening, glasscages.com) for two years now without problems. I've had them in the rain chamber several times without any action, ordered a bunch more a month ago to raise up for a breeding project since mine haven't shown interest, and ironically now a pair from my original group have randomly joined up in amplexus for the last four days. I assume she isn't carrying eggs since they haven't laid yet, but am still hopeful. 

A. annae are beautiful, but very nervous. While moreletii could seem to care less if you're in their tank pruning plants or even pulling them out to have a look, my annae are spazzes and jump all over the place if they're woken up unexpectedly. Gorgeous frogs, but jumpy.

Tom - good luck with those vaillanti, getting eggs even if they were infertile is superb! Keep us posted,


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Hmmm.... spazzy frogs, sounds just my style. LOL.

I get this horrible mental image about sticking moreleti in such a "small" tank, but then I have to think back at how I've seen a 10g full of RETFs that all did well... and i have to kinda smack my forehead over it. I've yet to see an adult in person, and keep thinking they are something like the length of my hand around the length of a P. bicolor... how to feed a frog like that, how to house a frog like that... I guess I really just need to see one in person. I really think I'd like them tho! I keep thinking about tracking down some of the WCs (to add/keep another bloodline to the hobby) and giving them a go... what do you feed your adults? They'd probably be great roach disposals...

As for their breeding... are you cycling them? Like red eyes? Considering their range... I hypothesize (wouldn't my middle school science teacher be proud) that they may need to be dried out more, fed less, really make a dramatic change (RETFs seem to take it more mildly). And man do you know it when the girls get eggs... while not in that specific species, I've seen some of the other aggies (as I call them) bloat up with eggs... they are like little ballons!

I'd still like to give the annae a try, lol. Seems like I might have to build a new rack for the TFs for the 30s :shock: It's fun to have one chorus during the day, and another at night  Tho a couple frogs are a tad confused and squeak at various times day and night :roll:


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

moreleti seem really cool but I also do not recall seeing them in person. Are they as big as Spurrelli? Now that would be a neat frog to have in the hobby.


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

I'm very interested in hearing about how A. annae do in captivity. Were the ones you worked with CB or WC? And the ones that you said were "spazzes", do you think it's because of capture stress or is that their normal disposition?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Should be normal disposition of CB animals... WC annae haven't been around in a long while...

The spurrelli were also what I was thinking of when I heard that moreleti were large frogs... I was afraid they'd be the same size, and those are some BIG frogs! They were also kept in large tanks at the time too... so I was always thinking the 30g would be too small.

Devin, do you have any pics with them next to RETF by chance? Or could you give a size for them?


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> The spurrelli were also what I was thinking of when I heard that moreleti w?


Yeah they look very similar. The Moreleti look like a mix of spurrelli and callidryas.


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## Tom (Jun 15, 2006)

Derek - it's funny you mentioned gremlins. When I saw first saw the vaillanti, that's the first thing I thought of. Great minds. . . 

Corey - I got the 3.1 vaillanti group in during March 2005 from a vendor on kingsnake. I cycled them that winter (that's when I noticed random amplexus between the male and female). I introduced them all to the rain chamber at the same time in May 2006. I observed amplexus, but no eggs. Upon taking them out of the rain chamber, I separated the sexes. I cycled them again that winter, and put them back in the rain chamber in May 2007 (again, everybody in at the same time). This time I got eggs, but no development.

I will definitely try staggering the groups introduction into the rain chamber when I try again this spring. I've also read that these frogs are more closely associated with streams/flowing water than the other phyllos I've breed. So, I may also try incorporating some sort of flow element to the rainchamber pool. Will post here with outcome.

As for the moreletii, mine are a little bigger than RETFs. The males are about the size of girl RETFs, and the females are about 1/2" bigger. I keep my 4.2 group separated by sex in two 55 gallon vertically oriented enclosures. I bred these last August, and I currently have about 200 froglets to unload. I'll be bringing them to the next Hamburg show, if anyone's interested.

As for the annae, mine are jumpy as well. I got my group (1.5) as froglets from SFDR in April 2006. I probably will wait for next spring to breed them, even though I only have one male. Still the females are looking very baloon-like as of late, so I may give a try them before winter. Then again, the frog room is a little crampt at the moment will all those moreletii froglets. We'll see. And gain, I'll keep you posted.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You sound like you've got some fun projects! Definately keep me posted  Good to see some of the SFDR annae are still around, I wondered what happened to all of them!


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

To eliminate any doubt how A. spurrelli does it:


Ripped from a Planet Earth edition of Jungles.

By the way Greaser, thanks for posting the pictures! It looks like you had fun.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

thanks spawn. Its funny you posted that video shot because the population filmed in that video was the same that I saw and photographed. Same pond.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

When I was visiting the CRARC in Siquirres, Costa Rica Brian had told me he was disappointed when the Planet Earth guys wanted to set up "fake" shots with sets instead of filming in the wild. They actually did most of that in front of his guest house using prop "trees" and such. 

Guess hauling all the equipment into the forest on a mountainside wasn't in the cards.

Chris


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

Really? Same frogs? Wow that's nuts! I thought Planet Earth was the real deal :? It was very successful, however. Just a shame they wanted to use sets, but I have to assume those are just for transition sequences. The frogs in my short clip were shot in the forest obviously.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

No all the shots were shot in the bush. I was at the same site that they visited. It was on Brians property from the CRARC.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Yah that man made pond is crawling with stuff. It was a great place to shoot snakes feeding on frogs and frog eggs. I have never seen so many Hyla ebracata! The cat eyed and blunt headed snakes were loving the place!

He did say however they took most of those closeups by bringing the animals to an area where they could control the lighting and movement. I was a little bummed too....but I suppose if they waited for everything to show itself in perfect form it would take another 10 years to make.


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

If I knew more about movie making, I'd appreciate what they did more. I guess they might need huge dome lights and halogen bulbs to keep things lit enough for the macro closeups and stuff at such a high resolution video camera. I'm keen on their bringing frogs (A. spurrelli, no less) to another area, with the quantity and amplexed frogs in tact. Impressive to say the least!


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

The amplexed shots were definitely not staged.

Some of those leaps however...and shots of frogs crawling on sticks were. I am not trying to shoot down what they do....its amazing. I am sure they get as much live as possible. Sometimes though these animals don't make for great camera subjects due to their behavior and habitat. I can attest to that if you have ever seen my horrible footage on the CRARC property!

Chris


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

spawn said:


> If I knew more about movie making, I'd appreciate what they did more. I guess they might need huge dome lights and halogen bulbs to keep things lit enough for the macro closeups and stuff at such a high resolution video camera. I'm keen on their bringing frogs (A. spurrelli, no less) to another area, with the quantity and amplexed frogs in tact. Impressive to say the least!



Yeah those camera guys work really hard. Its insane the lengths they go through. I think he said they were there for close to a week working from the crack of dawn to late into the night.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Since you guys are all treefrogs guy, can I ask a question here?

I've been told(esp. by people on talktothefrog) that RETF's are boring...and that they will not even be visible in the daytime. Is this true? Would you guys reccomend them? I am used to cryptic and shy animals, but would hate to get into these and find out later I am not interested. Clown treefrogs seem to be the idea solution, but they aren't exactly widely available.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Since you guys are all treefrogs guy, can I ask a question here?
> 
> I've been told(esp. by people on talktothefrog) that RETF's are boring...and that they will not even be visible in the daytime. Is this true? Would you guys reccomend them? I am used to cryptic and shy animals, but would hate to get into these and find out later I am not interested. Clown treefrogs seem to be the idea solution, but they aren't exactly widely available.


waxy monkey tree frogs are like other tree frogs that they are not very active during the day BUT they will sit right out in the open during the day and not hiding like most other hylids. They are also the freaks of nature as far as frogs are concerned. You never mist them and give them a 90+ basking spot. You keep the frog like a lizard. Ed clark is selling them on kingsnake now!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> I've been told(esp. by people on talktothefrog) that RETF's are boring...and that they will not even be visible in the daytime. Is this true? Would you guys reccomend them? I am used to cryptic and shy animals, but would hate to get into these and find out later I am not interested. Clown treefrogs seem to be the idea solution, but they aren't exactly widely available.


Many people find nocturnal treefrogs boring for the same reason they eventually find pac man frogs boring... when people are interested in watching them DO something, they aren't doing anything!

RETFs have this habit of finding a spot, and sitting there like a lump all day. They are nocturnal, it's what they do. If you're looking for a frog to be active and entertaining during the day, nocturnal treefrogs (RETFs included) are not the way to go. If you're actually looking for something active after dark, they are pretty cool... I keep my nocturnal frogs in my living room and I'm often watching TV when they start becoming active (I usually only have a small lamp on, not the whole room lit up like the 4th of july), so I get to see them active a lot for the hour or two that I'm relaxing after dark. My dinural frogs, like my PDFs and mantellas, keep me entertained before the sun goes down, but lately it seems like I've seen more of my TFs while active than I have my dinural frogs :shock:


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

Corey, it's funny you mention that, because last week I had the (un)fortunate experience of turning the lights on for the cages four hours later than I usually do, so the previous night of darkness was four hours longer. This means I left the lights on for an extra four hours, and my Rhacophorus frogs woke up and went go to soak in the water when the 30 watt bulb over the enclosure was still on! Just goes to show you how good of an internal clock some of these animals have regardless of daylight.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And if you feed them at the same time on a regular basis, they will wake up, day or night, and wait expectantly where the food bowl goes! Very silly little frogs.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

As Corey said, when they know what time is feeding time, they make it a point to open their eyes. When I had a group of P. sauvagei, they would sit like bumps on a log for soemtimes up to 3 days straight before soaking at night. There were always three of them that would pop their eyes open the second they heard the crickets in the bowl and climb down for a feast. The others would continue sleeping so I would have to wait until they were active to feed them.

I usually feed an hour or two after the lights go out for that reason.


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## Dendromad (Jul 4, 2006)

> Some of those leaps however...and shots of frogs crawling on sticks were. I am not trying to shoot down what they do....its amazing. I am sure they get as much live as possible


Yeh not all the leaps and gliding was in the wild, a lot was actually done at the BBC natural history unit in Bristol UK. They used the spurrelli we have at the manchester museum for the close up leaps etc.. My boss took them down there and got to watch shots being made. apparently he said they put giant fans underneath them so they would 'glide' on the air!

Boss also took them out in wild to breeding pool to film them during breeding season. Got some good footage.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Dendromad said:


> > Yeh not all the leaps and gliding was in the wild, a lot was actually done at the BBC natural history unit in Bristol UK. They used the spurrelli we have at the manchester museum for the close up leaps etc.. My boss took them down there and got to watch shots being made. apparently he said they put giant fans underneath them so they would 'glide' on the air!
> >
> > Boss also took them out in wild to breeding pool to film them during breeding season. Got some good footage.


Hey Dendromad did you Boss or anyone else you know from the frogs department at the museum head down to costa rica and pick up some Isthmohyla lancasteri? Because I met an English guy picking some up from a museum.


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## Dendromad (Jul 4, 2006)

Hi if that was this summer then yeh probably was him! 
they are awesome little frogs, stuck them in rain chamber when got back and they bred straight away!


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Dendromad said:


> Hi if that was this summer then yeh probably was him!
> they are awesome little frogs, stuck them in rain chamber when got back and they bred straight away!


Yeah it was! He was a really really nice guy. Tell him the frogger from the US me met when he picked those frogs up said HI. I hear you guys have one of the largest collections of Costa Rican frogs?


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## Dendromad (Jul 4, 2006)

> Yeah it was! He was a really really nice guy. Tell him the frogger from the US me met when he picked those frogs up said HI. I hear you guys have one of the largest collections of Costa Rican frogs?


Yeh we have quite a few species from costa rica, and a couple more after his last trip!


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## jmcc000 (Apr 7, 2005)

Just picked up some more frogs from Mike.
I got 12 bicolor 
















Then he only had 5 of the Tomopturna. Ill get more when he has them, very cool little frog.








I have an addiction 
Ill make another post with the rest of my new tree frogs if you guys are interested.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Very cool, keep th epictures coming. I can't wait until i get some tomopterna from Mike soon...


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Dude thats awsome! Mike is a really cool dude. He is putting three Sauvagii in the mail for me right now! Its gonna be like xmas morning waiting for the package. I love the bicolor to. I have a pair now but mabey down the line ill get some cb froglets. Im really looking forward to how the cb look when they are adults. I bet there gonna look perfect. The WCs always look a little banged up. 


The tomopterna are really cool to. Keep posting pics of them as they mature.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Im curious if Mikes bicolors will retain that ice blue color as adults. I think I recall seeing pictures at one time of a good size bicolor that was about that same color. I have a feeling that color was obtained from what he feed that tads. Or mabey they will turn green as they mature like there parents. I dont know what the normal juvi color is for these things.


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

All young cb bicolor I've seen have had that blue color to them, changing to green as they mature. I'd expect Mike's to do the same. They look pretty sweet right now though!


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## AJ (Jun 24, 2004)

Unfortunately they don't keep that brick red/orange color on their sides either as they mature.

I've noticed that they seem to grow faster by handfeeding cockroaches of the appropriate size. The juveniles also tend to be faster than larger frogs at catching prey items so you might want to consider that as well.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Hi all....I'm very interested in the tiger-striped leaf frogs(Phyllomedusa tomopterna)....does anyone have a couple available for sale? I'd like more information on their terariums(setup, temperature) and if you can use artificial plants instead of live ones...............new to the frog fun here and very eager!

Thanks for your time!



Alex


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Mike Novy - the same breeder that we've been talking about with the bicolor - also works with the tomos and would be a good resource for them and their care as well.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Thanks bud!!!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

thats Bud'et or Mam :wink: 

S


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ugh, "M'am" makes me feel old.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> thats Bud'et or Mam :wink:
> 
> S


As long as we are being droll pedants, that would be Budette...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Whatever happened to Chick? Geez...

We need to get back on Phyllomedusas :lol:


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

i was going to say CHICKA, but chick works too! Miss? Babe? Just kidding 

At any rate, i'm in contact w/ Mike Novy now...thanks again for the heads up!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'm fine with chica


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Who all has tomopterna from Mike here? Anyone else notice that these things are eating machines? Right now I have bicolor, tomopterna, red eyes, black eyes, african reeds, and some dwarf chamsand they chow down on smaller crickets and roach nymphs.


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## papaK (Apr 4, 2007)

i'm curious to know how loud the different phyllomedusa species are when they call... also how loud are the red eyes and black eyes? thanks


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

anyone seem to notice if their bicolors have a food preference? granted i haven't had them for more than a week, but they seem kinda picky. has anyone had luck cup training them? they'll eat an occasional cricket and ignore the roaches, but they seem to really like hornworms. but they are so expensive.


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

I must say lemurs are my favourite Phyllo right now. Very active visible frog. 

Has anyone EVER known anyone who kept/bred/sold spurrellii? I've been int o phyllomedusines for quite some time, but this frog seems rarer than Annae. Which is strange as i understand spurrelliis range is quite large.

Also, where do you get all your Annaes? In Europe they are virtually non-existant. Then again, loads of Germans breed lemur. 

We must do some exchanges soon :lol:


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

013 said:


> I must say lemurs are my favourite Phyllo right now. Very active visible frog.
> 
> Has anyone EVER known anyone who kept/bred/sold spurrellii? I've been int o phyllomedusines for quite some time, but this frog seems rarer than Annae. Which is strange as i understand spurrelliis range is quite large.
> 
> ...


When you say lemur do you mean this frog?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yes he means those... the breeding stock here in the US pretty much died out before people got a handle on breeding them like evidently our friends on the other side of the pond have! I've also heard that side of the pond has a shortage of sauvagii while we've got them produced here on a regular basis by a few breeders.

I wouldn't say annae are common by any means... they hadn't been bred and in good number of years until Sandfire successfully bred them almost 2 years ago, and I've heard nothing since. They are tricky and those who got animals from Sandfire are working on breeding them. They are hardly as numorous as the moreletti or callidryas with breeding. It would be great to do a swap, but you'd need someone actually breeding them to do it!

I wonder if the CB bicolor are picky as some of the WCs have been. I've heard a lot that the bicolors are picky... I always wondered what it was they really did eat up there in the canopy in the wild. Larger moth/butterfly caterpillars I'm sure are well up there on their like list, and silkworms would be another to try. They'd probably like silkmoths too! The LTC WC bicolor I've worked with ate crickets (and occassional pinkies) but that was also mostly what they were offered... probably just got used to it after a while... eat the little things in the bowl. Yum.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Yup I wish we had more sauvagii  

What if any CITES listing are they?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

P. sauvagii is not listed, as most of the phyllomedusines seem to not be. TFs generally get the shaft on that... not a whole lot of amphibians seem to be on CITES outside of PDFs and Mantellas.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

My bicolor eat 1/4" crickets and roach nymphs like there's no tomorrow....


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

So how about Spurrelli? Is anyone working with these beautiful frogs?

Only shred of evidence i found was a caresheet dating back to 1979.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Not recently. I knew of animals in a zoological institution, but that was a decade ago and I know those particular animals are gone. I've not heard of them in the hobby at this point. There might be some in some zoological institutions working with their countries of origin, but I'm not sure, and they likely wouldn't be released to the hobby anytime soon anyways.


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

Ah, too bad. 

I hear one of the reasons they never appear in hobbyists' collections, is that they live most of their life high up in the canopy, rarely coming down. They must be hard to spot in the wild too.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The general case with Phyllomedusines is that they are collected in the breeding congregation... one of the only times you'll see any together in any numbers. Many of the Agalychnis can gather in large groups which is why they have been more available than some of the Phyllomedusas that prefer smaller bodies of water like treeholes, and gather in smaller groups. Spurrelli used to be one of these species, but suffer from the problem of occuring from countries with little to highly limited amphibian traffic.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

I got 8 more hypochondrilais today. Not very exciting, but they are nice specimens. Oh and 2 adult female bicolor :twisted:


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Awesome!! I'd like to see some pics! (I still have to get a camera to show my tomopterna froglets!  ).....

I'd like to see the two waxy monkey frogs(bicolor and sauv.) in person, to see how cool they are!

I love the climbing/walking that the tiger striped are sporting.......red eyes do that too! 

(love this thread too..hehe  )


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Wait till I post pics of my new P. vaillantii 8)


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## alfrog (Oct 19, 2007)

*So?*

So we're waiting for the photos! I've noticed those for sale and wondered about getting some. I had to skip these in favor of some Hyla calcarata. Should I have gotten these instead???


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: So?*



alfrog said:


> So we're waiting for the photos! I've noticed those for sale and wondered about getting some. I had to skip these in favor of some Hyla calcarata. Should I have gotten these instead???


Chances are you are going to loose some when thye make it into your hands. They just dont do well with all the stress of getting messed with so much. I got 8 and I only have four left 3.1 One female was a DOA. I think the other guy who got them the same time I did from the same place got more and he lost a bunch. They are just hard frogs to settle in after all the shit they have been put through till we get them.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

I had quite a few vaillanti a couple years ago and after establishment they did pretty well. They ate and looked normal. They were rather boring, even at night, but what do you do.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Derek Benson said:


> I had quite a few vaillanti a couple years ago and after establishment they did pretty well. They ate and looked normal. They were rather boring, even at night, but what do you do.



Mine are really active at night.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Hmm, maybe it was the time frame. I would always watch them "early" in the evening up until about midnight, but they must have been waking up later. I would occasionally hear some calling, I believe from their cage, as I had all males. They were nasty when they came in, just like always, had a fecal done, had been gut loaded with parasites, hah. I won't be getting those guys for some time, much "prettier" and healthy phyllos out there to get first, hah.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yours... the walking is pretty characteristic of the Phyllomedusines as a whole, so you'll see the Phyllos and the Ags do it  

Phyllomedusines as a whole seem to have a lot of sensitivity issues coming in, which is why I tend to recomend them to people with experience... or at least a tight relationship with a vet who knows what they are doing. Getting them as fresh as possible, immediately setting up treatments, reducing stress, and dealing with refeeding syndrom... and just accepting that you'll get losses is the way to go... This seems to be true of most WC frogs due to how they are held after gathering etc, as well as how seasonal they are as breeders (since they are usually collected as breeding adults... the big issue with females is because of this).


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Couple pictures here of a few phyllos, agalychnis, etc.

tomopterna





































red eyes





































A little art, hah P. sauvagei




















forgot the hypos/bicolor. I will get those tonight....


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

That Sauvagii tattoo is really cool man. That shit made my day.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Thanks greaser.

Here are a couple pictures of the hypos right when I got them, havent really seen them since, they like hiding in the leaf litter and sleeping constantly.























































I have not seen any night activity yet, but they are still aclimating to their quarintine enclosure.


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## lukebalsavich (Feb 14, 2006)

Nice photos. Those hypos look crazy! 

Responding to the remarks on annae, I still have mine from the SDR Breedings, and my single male calls regularly so I will be putting them in the rain chamber this spring with any luck (I am building it now). I randomly found them in amplexus once couple of months ago, but they became shy and I have not seen it since. They are, as Devin says, rather nervous and jumpy, much less laid back than their red eye cousins... I also find them to be much more avid eaters, and they regularly take crickets right from my fingertips.

Awesome frogs though.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Is that tattoo on you or someone else? Very cool!!! 

Awesome pictures! Nice hyphochondralias! 

Derek, how old are your tomopterna's? Very sweet


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Yes, the tattoo is on me, ha.

As far as the tomopterna, they are a few months, not exactly sure. Novy's babies, so probably the same as yours (I am assuming you have CB babies since you list as 0.0.4)


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Yep, cb babies! Did you get them the same time? Ours are probably from the same clutch then....awesome!!


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## spawn (Jan 2, 2007)

Derek, maybe you will gain a new appreciation for the hypos this time around? I know years ago when you had them you said they were one of the most boring frogs you had, but I have a friend who says they are his most interesting frog, and he's got quite a collection. He says they're very active, and I would imagine those young ones would be in their energy prime  

Thanks for posting. Lots of pretty frogs. So you got a big collection growing now that you're in an apartment? I bet the second you brought those guys into the dorm you were like, "this isn't going to work", haha.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

yours,

I think ours are the same clutch, because they usually breed once time per year. I am not sure how many dfferent clutches Novy got this year, so ours may even be related. I got mine about October or so, maybe a bit sooner.

Spawn,

I hope they get a bit more active. They are still adjsuting and hiding a lot, but I have seen a couple hunting at night, which is pretty cool, just like the other tree frogs.

I sold off all of my adults and good stuff that bred about 6 months before I went to college and got to college only to find out that I could have animals there, so I immediately started getting stuff again, but was limited to one rack. I have room for about 4 racks now which makes me happy, but most of my stuff is still Cb babies, or the WC imports. Trying to finish up some tanks now (mostly 20 verts) for the tomopterna, afrixalus, etc. so I can have room this spring when the imports start coming in. Also have some sauvagei lined up here soon...


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Oh wow!.....i don't think we have the same clutch then....

I got mine from Mike TWO WEEKS ago  So they're younger.......and were tadpoles in November into December


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Ah ok, yours must be about half the size of mine, I have four of them also. They are very nice and eat very well....


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Nice! Probably too early to sex yours now?


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Yes, mine are only about 1.5" right now. I will give them until next summer or so to grow up and then keep an eye out for their sex ratio.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

The redeyes that I also got from him are about that size...

I can't wait until my tomopterna's get there.....trying to get PINHEADS in this cold weather is unbearable!!! 

Upon recommendation, I'm going to try 1/8's!

These little froglets are so precious, so adorable, so delicate....I love them!!!! My first of this size, and sure to be my favorite!!! 

How long have you had the hypochondralias?


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Only had the hypos for about 2 weeks, and again, they are boring as sin, even at night. I have a bunch of leaf litter on the bottom of the tank that they like to hide in and never leave. Oh well, time will tell.

The tomopterna are up every evening about 5 minutes after the lights go out, same with the bicolor. Usually my red eyes are up before the lights go out, they are pigs.

I am just finishing a couple of my 20 verts, but ran into a little problem with one. I use PVC pipe divders for substrate and water area. I decorated one of the pipes after I siliconed it in place and of course it's the one that leaks back into the substrate area.

Here's the undecorated one during it's water holding trial.














































And the disguised barrier, which leaks water into the back substrate area. Have to fix that now...




























Looks like I am turning into the picture who re for this thread...

Once I add susbtrate to the water area, maybe some eco complete or sand, it will make the water area much less water volume, as well as the aquatic plant life and the wood attached to the PVC itself. Some say it's a bit much water for phyllomedusas, but it is actually perfect, they love soaking and its easy to change out with a turkey baster. The ones with larger volumes of water will be for Hyperolius.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

looks awsome man. I really want to try and figure out a system as well that will be nice but cut back on maintenance time. It would probably be even better if you just had holes drilled and you could just drain the dirty water and dead crickets out instead of taking the time with teh turkey baster. This is something I have thought about doing with a couple kinds of tank. If I get around to getting a budgetts I will have them set up that way for easy water changes. Just drain it all out and pour new in.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I can't believe you all waste time with turkey basters still... I use one of those cheap aquarium vaccums! Sucks out all the stuff I don't want, then I just replace the water. Much faster than a turkey baster  Crimp the hose or put your finger over the end to keep suction, and you can move onto the next tank.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Do you mean a siphon? I use those on my fish tanks, not enough water in these tanks for that, I have a very large turkey baster that is "custom made" ha. Plus I have to be careful with the substrate and aquatic plants. :lol:

Plus I am not a huge fan of cross contamination, so I always clean the items between tanks just to make sure.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Use the mini ones, not the big ones! The "minis" for tanks only a couple of gallons are rather weak, and don't mess with substrates or aquatic plants unless they aren't well anchored (I have issues with leaf litter thats it). Now stick a phython on a faucet and you might have a problem... like sucking up everything including frogs :shock: 

And yes, I generally keep a siphon to a tank... I only have a couple of tanks that actually get "vacuumed"... fish, salamanders, and tads. They all have different sizes syphons (geez, how do you spell that? i or y?) so I don't get them mixed up, and they regularly get dumped into the bleach water when I bleach my sinks. My tads rarely get water changes anyways so that's more of a "clean out after they morph" deal anyways :roll:


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I'm running into the rookie mistake of having my 18X18X24 exo, pretty well planted terarium.....the water feature is a "medium" sized water fall, in the back left corner of the tank.....difficult to reach/get because of the plants infront of and beside it..............but I have to get it to change the water and clean it......


Derek, are those hypochondralias CB? If so, where did you get them from? I think Mike has had them in the past, but I do not believe they are being cycled right now.....................perhaps remove the leaf litter to improve visibility? *shrug* 

Are you feeding your tomopterna's every evening? About how many crickets do you have in there each feeding? Just trying to compare notes 

I may look into getting bicolors and the sauv. in the future.....waxy monkeys look pretty cool!


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

The hypochondrialis are all imports. I know Mike has some, but like you said he may not be cycling them.

I try to feed the tomopterna every evening but sometimes it it every other if I forget. They seem to take about 3 or so a piece and I am feeding from boxes of "1/4" crickets.

My bicolor are big enough now to where they ignore the 1/4" and want something wth a little more meat on it.

The sauvagei are by far my favorite, first Phyllomedusas that I kept many years ago.

I am brainstorming a new feeding bowl idea that can be camoflauged and easily accessable to all sizes of frogs. I will post pictures next weekend when I get one installed in my 20 verts and see how the Afrixalus do with it.

Derek


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