# Albino .....



## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Ok , as of the last 8-9 months or so my pair of normal colored retics have given me nothing BUT albino or whatever color phase you choose to call them . For a long time it was a the most 1 or 2 a year , and none ever survived longer than 4 months . All were quite a bit smaller at morphing that the normal siblings . 
Now for the last 8-9 months ALL albino and all are morphing large and fat . 
(please please don't flood me w/ pm's for them ! ) 
The problem with this is ...I don't want to start a albino "line " ,( though on the other hand I did see a few months ago someone here selling albino offspring w/ the buyer guaranteeing no cross breeding to the typical color morph.... if my memory is correct .) 
So the question I pose is , do we have a place in this hobby for albino or off colored "lines " ? I hate to open that jar of fruit flies ...pun intended .
What does the new blood in the hobby think ? 
I personally believe that they should be treated no different that normal colored morphs . And from time to time they should be breed into regular stock .
So now your thoughts please ..................
Dad 








offspring 








Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

thoughts=that froglet looks amazing.

i see what you mean about treating them the same because they are from normal parents and there from the same location, but then we dont want to do what has happened to other herps and purposely breed albinos. i remember when i was at your house and you showed me the albino tads and said you hated that but i didnt get why at the time but i see your point now. maybe you could seperate them and make a new pair out of one or news pairs out of both and see what happens. maybe both parents have just the right amount of albino genes to always make albinos? and if you seperate them and try breeding with other retics they wont? thats just what i thought of but im pretty new to this so im sure others will have better advice :wink:


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Darren - 

That is a very tough question - and I don't think there is a good answer. The frogs that are producing these "color variants" - are they siblings? I suppose if they were closely related - then it could be argued that the variants are the product of inbreeding (and over how many generations?) due to a limited founder population. If that is the case - then the place that these frogs have becomes an even more difficult question. But, if the frogs are unrelated - and are producing these offspring - then the chance that they would appear in the wild would be higher. I think that one of the other "albino" frogs (alanis or vents) were produced this way - from two WC breeders. In any case - breeding these "color variants" to each other to selectively breed for color is wrong. But, I don't see why they shouldn't be bred back to other "normal" frogs from the same lineage.

As I mentioned before, I don't think that these frogs should be selectively bred to each other - with the intent of creating a line of "color variants". That is something that the hobby doesn't need - and would be the antithesis of all that many people have worked for. With that said, a F1 cross of two variants to see the proportion of color variants in the offspring would be interesting - but then what do you do with the offspring? They may also be interesting frogs to use in mate selection studies. But - you need to find someone interested in doing the studies.

I am experiencing a similar situation with some offspring from a pair of Tarapoto Imitators from Tor. They are producing froglets (about 50%) - that seem to be lacking iridiphores (or they are hypermelanistic).








So, this is an issue that has been on my mind as well.

Oz


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If they are in the genetics, I see no reason to weed them out. There used to be albino vents in the hobby(or lutino). Beautiful frogs, i don`t know that anyone knew exactly what type of vents they were. It seems we`ve only had very few lines of retics as is and if most are related it`ll show up regardless.
I see nothing wrong w/ selling them and keeping them as some of the "normal" genetic variation inherent in the population.


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Hi Darren,
I'm also in the same boat...have some amelanistic tincs that are over a year old. Not anywhere near as pretty as the normal, wild-types but that's just me.
Anyway, you are receiving all 'albino' froglets? Has the clutch size remained constant since you first observed an 'albino?'

Without getting too involved in the 'jar of flies' problem, ill just say that selective breeding = not a direction i think the hobby should go. However, we are selectively breeding a lot unintentionally but i suppose our goal should be to minimize this.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I don't know exactly to what degree the trait has been line bred (if at all) but it would seem the goal now would be to try to produce the trait at a similar rate that would happen in the wild. The problematic thing is that we almost undoubtedly now have a greater representation of 'albino' retics in the hobby than are in the wild. My take on it would be to breed the albinos with other retics from lines known not to have the trait. And to let the 'albinos' produced be tank raised to ensure only the healthiest 'albinos' survive. 

Rich


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## skronkykong (Jan 1, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about it. If they are albino retics sell them as albino retics, and if they come out normal then sell them as retics het for albino. Some people would pay even more for hets. Most albino darts I've seen are not as attractive as the parents so I don't think albinos will become more sought after like with pythons and cornsnakes, ect. They might be at first but then will people realize that the normal phases are prettier.


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

to expand on Ben's comment I find it interesting that the pair produced the occasional albino to producing 100% albinos. There may be more to it than genetics unless you are seeing changes in clutch survivorship (for some reason the non-albinos are dying).

as for the quandary of what to do with those animals it is hard to say. They have a visible genetic difference from other reticulatus. In reality they probably just differ by one gene. There are many other genetic conditions that may be detrimental and being passed on in our frogs that we cannot see!
the question is how large and diverse is the gene pool for reticulatus? Are these albino individuals more valuable for the diversity of other genes they have in spite of the single "bad" albinism gene.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

the survival rate may just be an effect of the frogs "getting the hang of it"... maybe they were slow to do so. maybe they've found some way to spice up their love life  

If the viv they went into was relatively new, maybe now that it is more established its had an effect on them and the offspring? 

I dont see any problem with a line that produces albinos... This may be a short term trend with them anyways...they might start morphing out normals again and do so for quite awhile. I think there is room in the hobby for both. Probably should represent any offspring that look normal as "hets" though. Maybe breed some of the offsprings and/or parents with another bloodline and get some of those offspring out there too. Mix things up a bit 

Any more pics, i'd love to see what these look like as they mature.....as far as darts go i havent been a fan of most of the albinos i've seen, but this one may be an exception. I like the white on red.


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

I would be careful breeding the albinos. The problem I see is with the normal looking het for albinos. Eventually they will likely be sold without the buyer knowing this(might be what happened to you). Then someone will be in the same situation as you.

There are a few ways of looking at the situation, and all arguements have merit. I'm of the opinion that the limited gene pools we're dealing with should not be tainted with such genes. If they were ment to live and breed it would have happened in the wild. If you inbreed animals long enough you will run into mutations. We should be weeding those out, not helping them along.

If people want to breed albinos I would cull the normal looking hets. Then breed the albinos together so they breed pure albinos, and there are no hets. It will save any confusion from happening.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Jayson745 said:


> If they were ment to live and breed it would have happened in the wild.


Where do you think the trait came from? Do you think this is some sort of 'CB manufactured' trait?

Rich


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

its likely a mutation from inbreeding. Sometimes its just a fluke too, but a mutation none the less. Lots of animals have occational albinos. Doesn't mean they survive and breed that way, without human help. If they did, there would be albino populations of all different animals in the wild. I would think that in the wild they either die, or get the gene bred out of the population over time. But with frogs alot of people breed siblings, and the gene doesn't go away so easily, it would likely fester.

I'm just saying it would probably be better to go with it, and breed an albino line that breeds true. Or scrap the idea. I wouldn't do it half way.

just my opinion.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jayson745 said:


> its likely a mutation from inbreeding. Sometimes its just a fluke too, but a mutation none the less. Lots of animals have occational albinos. Doesn't mean they survive and breed that way, without human help. If they did, there would be albino populations of all different animals in the wild. I would think that in the wild they either die, or get the gene bred out of the population over time. But with frogs alot of people breed siblings, and the gene doesn't go away so easily, it would likely fester.
> quote]
> 
> The genes don't get bred out they are just maintained at a recessive frequency and albinos are not uncommon in herps even in adult animals (and adult albinos are not that unusual in collection (from wc adult dwarf sirens I had a amelanistic occur).
> ...


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

Wouldn't breeding an albino to a regular unrelated frog make 50% hets? I'm not sure if I'm remembering that right, but if someone gets those babies and breeds them wouldn't their be a good chance of getting more albinos?

It just seems like if you unleash albinos(or even het for albino), you would end up with hets and albinos everywhere eventually. Kind of like a chocolate luec thing.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Kind of off topic and absolutely out of focus, but if you look dead center of the picture you will see an wild albino doe running away in snow. Funny, but no joke. This albino was produced from a wild albino buck and either a het (doubtful) or 'normal' female.










Rich


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## syble (Mar 20, 2007)

I think it's completely a matter of how you look at it. Many albinos that get"weeded out" in nature do not have additional defenses. It could be that if this happened in a naturalized population in the rainforest somewhere that a population could indeed be established providing that the toxicity still remains as a defense. Darts are allabout bright colours to warn of their toxcicty right? I find the albino equally bright as the typical. So I don't see why it should be weeded out.

That said I don't think it should be in turn bred to typical, for the exact reason stated of possible het offspring. If I buy a typical I'm expecting to get typical babies, possible for the odd mutant, but if I want albinos, I would buy into that line. This ould easily be an example of evolution, but without feild testing you can't be certain either way if it would make i or not make it. Guess my thoughts is it should be a seperate line.
Just my thought.s
Sib


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jayson745 said:


> Wouldn't breeding an albino to a regular unrelated frog make 50% hets? I'm not sure if I'm remembering that right, but if someone gets those babies and breeds them wouldn't their be a good chance of getting more albinos?
> 
> It just seems like if you unleash albinos(or even het for albino), you would end up with hets and albinos everywhere eventually. Kind of like a chocolate luec thing.


If the genetics are properly managed then you would not end up with albinos everywhere... As for the hets, they would be 100% het but would be normal looking frog. 
Hets are not inherently a bad thing. 

Ed


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## syble (Mar 20, 2007)

no not inherently, just really easy to loose track of.
Sib


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

syble said:


> no not inherently, just really easy to loose track of.
> Sib


And in this case not a problem. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

syble said:


> no not inherently, just really easy to loose track of.
> Sib


Which is not a problem if you lose track of them in the population... (other than registering them with TWI's tracking system). 

Ed


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

in this hobby its not a matter of the look of the dart, but really the morph and location correct? example: it is perfectly fine to breed standard leucs with green footed leucs cause there from the same location and its just a small varient. so why should this be any different? we should be able to keep track of it and keep the amount of them some what down.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

As Ed has already mentioned, this "problem" is actually quite easy to deal with under TWI/ASN management or similar. The system isn't fully operational but here's how it would work if it was. There would be a target number of offspring to collect from each individual in the managed population to use for breeding stock for the next generation. So there would be a certain number you needed from the male, and a certain number needed from the female. That number of offspring would be chosen randomly from all of the offspring available. Albinos and melanistic animals would be included in that candidate pool. So any individual (albino or not) has the same probability of being selected as any other individual. So the odds of getting any albinos in the random selection depend on the proportion of albinos present among all the offspring being chosen. This method provides the greatest probability that all alleles present in the population of one generation get passed to the next generation. And that the relative proportion of alleles among all individuals remains about the same from one generation to the next. In this way, rare alleles like albinism remain rare, and common alleles remain common.

Any offspring not selected for breeding the next generation become "surplus" so it doesn't matter how they are bred. Selective bred for albinism or not, it doesn't impact the managed population that is maintained as genetically similar to the original founding population as possible.

The big lesson here is that if animals are tracked and collaboratively managed, these types of issues are really not problems at all. But without such management, there really is no solution.


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*Albino*

I'm going to guess that the frogs producing the Albino offspring are very closely related considering the fact that they regularly produce Albino offspring. If they had produced only one or maybe two albino offspring, maybe not, but, the fact that they are producing so many tells me that most likely both parents are carrying and passing on the allele which expresses the albino trait. The problem with breeding closely related individuals is that there is a much high probability of these traits being passed on be it a positive or negative trait it is much more likely to be expressed in inbred animals because it is much more likely that both animals are carrying the allele. I wouldn't be afraid to breed them as long as I knew that the animal that they are being bred to is not closely related. In the wild, natural selection would probably weed out the Albinism considering the fact that it would be less likely for both parents to carry the allele. Someone please chime in here if I'm wrong this is all coming from my very limited knowledge of genetics.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

*Re: Albino*



jtrasap said:


> I'm going to guess that the frogs producing the Albino offspring are very closely related considering the fact that they regularly produce Albino offspring. If they had produced only one or maybe two albino offspring, maybe not, but, the fact that they are producing so many tells me that most likely both parents are carrying and passing on the allele which expresses the albino trait. The problem with breeding closely related individuals is that there is a much high probability of these traits being passed on be it a positive or negative trait it is much more likely to be expressed in inbred animals because it is much more likely that both animals are carrying the allele. I wouldn't be afraid to breed them as long as I knew that the animal that they are being bred to is not closely related. In the wild, natural selection would probably weed out the Albinism considering the fact that it would be less likely for both parents to carry the allele. Someone please chime in here if I'm wrong this is all coming from my very limited knowledge of genetics.


You are mostly (but not entirely) incorrect. Relatedness does not bear on the frequency of production of genetically determined albinos. Relatedness may bear on the likelihood that both parents will posess a common recessive gene (or genes) that cause a form of albinism, but not on the frequency in which they are produced (beyond the infrequent possibility that the albinism trait is caused by the interaction of multiple genes, in which case relatedness will bear only so far as the likelihood of the parents possesing all the necessary genes in multiples). Most cases of albinisim studied in herps are the expression of a single dominant or recessive gene, however.


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*Re: Albino*

Thanks for chiming in catfur.



Catfur said:


> You are mostly (but not entirely) incorrect. Relatedness does not bear on the frequency of production of genetically determined albinos.


Considering that both parents are normal but they are producing albino offspring they would both have to have a recessive gene for albinism right? If they are related it would make it much more likely for both of them to have that gene and much more likely that the frogs would frequently have offspring that express the trait or traits of albinism.




Catfur said:


> Relatedness may bear on the likelihood that both parents will posess a common recessive gene (or genes) that cause a form of albinism, but not on the frequency in which they are produced


If both parents carry a recessive gene or genes that cause albinism, wouldn't that make it much more likely that they would have albino offspring and therefor more frequently?

Don't take this the wrong way I'm just really interested in learning more about this stuff. and at the same time getting it out there to other people who may be interested.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I think you are on the right track Jason. Assuming this form of albinism is for a single gene reccessive trait. For example, if there is a 1 in 100 chance of any individual in a population carrying the recessive trait, then there is a 1 in 10,000 chance of any two animals with the recessive allele getting together (assuming random pairing). But if there is a 1 in 20 chance of any individual carrying the allele within a familial line, then there is a 1 in 400 chance of two recessives getting together (much high than for the population as a whole).

But I have doubts that we are talking about a single gene recessive here. For a simple recessive, we would expect that 25% of the offspring between two heterozygous parents to express the recessive traint. But if you look at Darren's post, something funky is going on here. He said that for years they would produce maybe 1-2 albinos a year. We don't know what percent this is but we could make the assumption that mortality was happening in the egg or tadpole stage which would account for the remainder of the 25% that is missing. But now they are throwing 100% albinistic animals (and they clearly aren't true albinos). So I believe there is a more interesting twist to this story than simple recessive allele probabilities.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

*Re: Albino*



jtrasap said:


> If both parents carry a recessive gene or genes that cause albinism, wouldn't that make it much more likely that they would have albino offspring and therefor more frequently?


Frequency is where you are going wrong. Assuming that the albinistic trait is a simple recessive (the most likely overall, and the simplest to deal with here), the _likelihood_ that any two individuals will throw albinos is increased when they are related (and that trait runs in the family line), but the _frequency_ with which parents that _do_ throw albinos will be the same as a relatively unrelated pair which also _does_ throw albinos. Siblings will throw albinos 25% of the time, the same as an unrelated pair.

As Brent noted, however, whatever is going on with Darren's retics is neither normal, nor easily categorized. 100% production of albinistic offspring from normal parents is deeply weird, especially combined with the fact that previous production from the same pair was markedly lower.


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*I see*

That is very strange that they are normal parents producing 100% albino Offspring. I actually misread his post and did not realize that they were producing 100% albinos. Is it possible that age or stress could have caused a gene mutation and they are passing it on? 

Catfur, I see what you are saying now about frequency. Considering that if you have two normal animals, and they are producing albino offspring, related or not they still would each have to have the recessive gene for albinism therefor there would be no difference in the frequency...related or not....correct? 

Now considering that this is the hobby and darren may very well have purchased both frogs from the same individual which would also make it more possible that they came from the same parents and therefor make it more likely for both of them to have the recessive gene or genes for albinism. Considering all of this, would you agree that it is very likely that they are closely related and that this would raise the chance of them having albino offspring? If this is the case then would breeding them be ok as long as it is done with other animals that are not closely related to them, that it is ok to breed with closely related animals, or don't breed them at all. I think that is the main question here. I would think that it would be ok to breed with others so long as they are not closely related.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I still think its possible they are just on a streak....i work at a casino so i know streaks! I just went on a $450 dollar loosing one tonight when i got off  No, but seriously, unless they are morphing out hundreds of froglets every month we are dealing with far to small a sample to make many assumptions(if any). 

Also its still possible that environmental(temporary?) factors are effecting the rate at which the genes are expressed. Studies have shown that the the environment inutero and beyond (including nutrition) can effect the frequency and/or degree of expression of some genes. I believe the particular study im thinking of was in regards to humans, but it likely applies across species or even kingdoms, phylum...whatever


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

Dendro Dave said:


> Also its still possible that environmental(temporary?) factors are effecting the rate at which the genes are expressed. Studies have shown that the the environment inutero and beyond (including nutrition) can effect the frequency and/or degree of expression of some genes. I believe the particular study im thinking of was in regards to humans, but it likely applies across species or even kingdoms, phylum...whatever


That's basically what I was trying to get at with the possibility of stress. It's kind of funny when you hear people talking about there kids giving them gray hair, but, genetic studies have shown early expression and even gene mutations that looked to be linked to stress to early onset of gray hair. Since this is pigment related, maybe, there is some kind of link here. Anyone else with some input here?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> in this hobby its not a matter of the look of the dart, but really the morph and location correct? example: it is perfectly fine to breed standard leucs with green footed leucs cause there from the same location and its just a small varient. so why should this be any different? we should be able to keep track of it and keep the amount of them some what down.


Where are you guys getting this info?
The green foot leucs came in as blue foot leucs but didn`t keep the blue, it faded to green. Then there are green leucs which have a green sheen to their whole body, there are banded and standard. Why does everyone think there are no "morphs" of leucs but there are morphs of everything else? There isn`t one population covering the whole of venezuela and guyana. There have been a good # of leuc imports over the years and they weren`t all derived from the same spot.
The true green foot leucs have reticulated patterns and only one band and are about the size of dwarf tincs or smaller.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

*Re: I see*



jtrasap said:


> Now considering that this is the hobby and darren may very well have purchased both frogs from the same individual which would also make it more possible that they came from the same parents and therefor make it more likely for both of them to have the recessive gene or genes for albinism. Considering all of this, would you agree that it is very likely that they are closely related and that this would raise the chance of them having albino offspring? /quote]
> 
> This is why I said I thought you were on the right track even though technically wrong about the frequencies. Yes, it could be more likely to get two parents that carry the recessive allele from related animals from a family line that where the allele tends to run as compared to a random sample of unrelated animals. I would stop short at saying it is likely they are closely related. That is one possibility that would explain the pairing of two heterozygotes but not the only possibility. Deducing the parents are closely related because they produced a rare recessive traint is too speculative though.
> 
> ...


[/quote:3bvyypvn]

This is kind of what I was thinking too. It would all be speculative at this point and it could actually be a case of random chance. But I would be curious to see the Chi squared values of this because it seems like a really interesting phenomena.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

We don't need albinos in the hobby. I don't suggest culling your frogs but stop the breeding. I would think that recessive traits could be associated with other problems with the frogs too.

These frogs need their colors(in the wild).


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

This might just be stating the obvious but the froglets aren't true albinos. Who's to say it's not just some genetic variation? I don't think it is any reason to cut these frogs out of the population, I'd actually be quite interested to see what type of offspring they produce.

I do however agree it is somewhat suspicious that they started of producing a mix of offspring and are now producing 100%, Any changes in their environment? Feeding?

My two cents.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

beachbabe18509 said:


> This might just be stating the obvious but the froglets aren't true albinos. Who's to say it's not just some genetic variation? I don't think it is any reason to cut these frogs out of the population, I'd actually be quite interested to see what type of offspring they produce.


Yep, even if they were true albinos, it is still just a form of genetic variation. If what we are trying to do is keep frogs in captivity similar to how they are found in the wild, then the trick here is to keep rare alleles rare. But rare is not extinct. As I said before, with animals managed with tracked pedigrees such as in ASN, this is relatively easy to do, but in the Wild West world of the general hobby, it complicates the decision for the breeder. When albino cornsnakes first made their appearance, I thought they were kind of cool. But immediately breeders started selecting for albinism and in a few short years, you couldn't find a captive bred snake with "normal" genetics. So in unmanaged populations, how is a breeder to allow this interesting oddities to persist as rarities in the population at large?


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

Those albinos and hypomelanistics are sweeeeeeeet! Where would a guy go about getting some of those?


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## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

i think albinos are great, however i dont want to see a single line breading like what happen to snakes. we all know the problems why and i dont got to restate them. i beleave also that this group shouldnt be cut out of the breading world. there babys could go to zoos and other facilitys or colectors for show but none breading purpose. 
however it never sold "which might be best if we want to keep the abino line form coming up like snakes" then i say split the pair and match them with others.
if sold, then do your homework on the buyer, make sure they know what there doing and why they want the animal. and it might be best to never sell but one animal to each buyer.

either way you take the problem is your going to get alot of babys and not many places to go with them.

just my 2 cents


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> But immediately breeders started selecting for albinism and in a few short years, you couldn't find a captive bred snake with "normal" genetics. So in unmanaged populations, how is a breeder to allow this interesting oddities to persist as rarities in the population at large?


The scourge of the hobby. The allure of line breeding for albinism and 'designer' color phases is incredibly strong, unfortunately. Of course, actually being able to manage the population genetics through ASN would help navigate the murky waters a bit, and ensure that these oddities remain unusual expressions of genetic variation and not distinctive lines being selected for albinism traits. I'd hate to see PDFs go down the road of orchid hybrids and color phases in corns and bearded dragons.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

flyangler18 said:


> The scourge of the hobby. The allure of line breeding for albinism and 'designer' color phases is incredibly strong, unfortunately.


Which is exactly why this is such a great hobby and why we fight so hard to keep it that way. We have collectively chosen to take a different path and celebrate the animals that evolution has given us. I left the snake hobby precisely because of the decline in interest in the natural ecology of the species being kept. Drinking beer with a bunch of people only interested in how they could manipulate genetics and make more money was really boring to me. I believe the snake hobby has since had a revived interest in wild type animals but at the time the designer corn snakes and cal kings were becoming affordable, it was not a fun place for me to be. I had a collection of common kingsnakes representing the natural subspecies and clinal variation that occurs from the east to west coast and nobody in the hobby had any interest in that sort of nonsense at all. They would look at what I thought was a particularly cool looking natural intergrade of Yuma king and all they could ask was "is it a het?".


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Precisely the same reason that I became involved in keeping darts, because I got a little disenchanted and frustrated with the color phase craze. That craze is no doubt reflective of the 'collect 'em all' mentality that seems to define certain aspects of the American hobby. Rather than keep lots of species, why not do more with the species you keep? 

I have to decide regularly about future acquisitions of species/morphs and contribute to managing the populations, and it can be a juggling act between spacial considerations and the time I can spend working with each. With my current workload, 3-4 species is about I can handle and care to.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

what do they look like when they are adults? is it possible that it could somehow fade to normal colors?


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, het parents will never throw all albino offspring unless something else is going on (ie wildtype are dyeing). Without a sense of what your sample size is (how many in a row have been albino) it is difficult to draw conclusions. That said, the chance of getting 10 albinos in a row from het parents, assuming a single recessive gene that exhibits simple Mendelian genetics, would be less than 1 in a million, and you are just not that unlucky! 

From this it is fairly clear that something else is going on. As has been suggested earlier, one possibility is nutritional. I'm not sure how this would happen, or if there is any precedent for a nutritional effect on the complete absence of melanin (I assume the black pigment is melanin). I am more familiar with other environmental effects on melanin. 

Has the temperature been higher in the last 10 months? It is well established that temperature during development can produce alterations in pigmentation. Now, this requires a temperature sensitive allele, but that's not terribly unlikely. It could perhaps be a natural way of altering the pigmentation in the strain that you are working with. With temp sensitive alleles, the animal has melanin where it is cooler, but lacks melanin where it is warmer. One example of temperature sensitive pigmentation that you may be aware of is in Siamese cats. In Siamese cats, their ears and mouth are dark, but the rest is pale, and this is because the cats are the coolest in their ears and mouth, and warm where the rest of their body is. This shows just how small a temperature change can cause a change in coloration. With frogs, which are cold blooded, their entire bodies would be affected (as appears to be the case in your frogs) if you raised the water temp just a little. 

As far as other environmental changes, you can make up any reason you want as to why the color is off. Stress, some chemical leaching from the plastic container you keep them in, some hormonal change in the parents, some virus, anything you can imagine. I know you are trying to make money on these frogs, but this sounds like a fun place to experiment on husbandry conditions. I would love to see what happens when you raise siblings in very different conditions. 

Sorry for rambling, I was just in the mood to write.
-Mark


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

markbudde said:


> As far as other environmental changes, you can make up any reason you want as to why the color is off. Stress, some chemical leaching from the plastic container you keep them in, some hormonal change in the parents, some virus, anything you can imagine.


Every time I think of Cheney, I get pale. Perhaps Darren should monitor what is on the television near his frogs.

The virus and chemical leaching hypotheses are particularly interesting. But I wouldn't rule out the Prince of Darkness scaring the pigment out of them.


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

> what do they look like when they are adults? is it possible that it could somehow fade to normal colors?


I have a couple albino/amelanistic/leucistic/whatever _Dendrobates tinctorius_ that are adults and their colour has not turned normal. They do, hoewver, have a couple of small blue 'birthmarks' where the colour is as expected but all the rest is white.

I hope this helps,
Ben


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> Every time I think of Cheney, I get pale. Perhaps Darren should monitor what is on the television near his frogs.
> 
> The virus and chemical leaching hypotheses are particularly interesting. But I wouldn't rule out the Prince of Darkness scaring the pigment out of them.


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

It depends sometimes I get red other times white, still lacking melanin though.


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

bbrock said:


> Every time I think of Cheney, I get pale. Perhaps Darren should monitor what is on the television near his frogs.


  If this is the case I would not let the frogs near any guns, particularly shotguns, as I would not underestimate the possibility that one frog may mutate into a Dick Cheney-esque form and "ACCIDENTALLY" shoot another frog in the face!!! I would keep a watchful eye on them near any weapons..... :lol: 




bbrock said:


> The virus and chemical leaching hypotheses are particularly interesting. But I wouldn't rule out the Prince of Darkness scaring the pigment out of them.


Bringing up Cheney, The prince of darkness, or any other member or former member of the Bush administration is sure to strike up another thread on the topic of inbreeding and the expression of some very negative traits..... :lol:


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