# Inquiry on the role of PDF Toxins



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

After reading some recent posts, they reminded me of something I was thinking about several months ago. As stated in the title, I'm interested in hearing about any studies, or opinions other froggers may have, about the importance of PDF toxins, to the frogs themselves. I'm not so much interested in how they may or may not protect these frogs from large predators, but more about how they may protect them from the small things like disease, infection, mites, ect. Toxins may also be involved in mate selection, who knows! 

Basically its the role they might play in their overall health that I'm interested in discussing. 

Anyone have any thoughts or articles on this they'd like to share?


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I would also be very interested in this subject.

I know that isn't very helpful but it's been something I've been rolling around in my head since I started reading. However, I do know there is a strong resistance to re-introducing the toxins (if even possible) into captive bred frogs as there are some currently int he hobby that would actually be dangerous and I get the impression a lot of people feel that if they were re-introduced there would be some serious legislative action possibly stopping the hobby.

While I don't disagree it would be nice to know if the toxins play another role in the survival and life of the PDF's other than a defense against predators.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I'd guess that the issue with re-introduction of toxins is that it's just difficult/not feasible to do. The toxins are plant based, so first, you'd need to get the mites/beetles/ants that they normally eat, then you need to get the plant to get the toxins that the mites feed on. It'd be rather difficult to do.

It's certainly an interesting perspective, but I'm kinda thinking that the toxins are incredibly important to the frog in the fashion you're thinking for a couple reasons. Frogs are big on visual and auditory cues. Chemoreception is relatively low for frogs. It's certainly possible though! Not sure if people have looked into that (could be an explanation for species like terribilis and bicolor). And with disease/parasites, they generally evolve with the host organism, so I would think that they would work around the toxins. Again, something interesting to look at because I'm not sure it's been done. Ectoparasites aren't generally a big thing on wet-skinned amphibians (I'd guess that the mucus secretions are irritating/inhibiting). What would be real interesting would be to look at endoparasites. Look a Colostethus, Dendrobates, and Phyllobates and see if gut load correlates with toxicity.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm certainly not avocating trying to restore their toxins. Understanding their role may be very important though, even if it could impact our ability to keep frogs.

Chemoreception is another thing I think is very underestimated. When I introduce frogs to a new habitat, the very first thing they do is taste things. And they do this a lot. I've also seen "marking" from E. Anthonyi, and other behavior from Phyllos that suggest a knowledge of established territory.

I agree that host and parasites can evolve together. But the system is reset everytime we move them from tank to tank. This happens naturally as a result of trading, buying, selling importing, ect. Couple that with the removal of a natural form of protection(toxins in this case) and I could easy see a significant impact.


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Monarchzman, my fiance took a biology class with a professor at Crafton Hills in Yucaipa, CA who studied dendrobates and he claimed they were successfully able to restore toxins by dusting flies with alkaloid powders. I tried to get a copy of the study but her class ended before he got it for her. Unfortunately I have no other info on the topic except that is has been done. I may be able to provide you a name of the professor if you are interested.


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## bronz (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi all this is my first post on the forum, bit of a random place I know but it just happened that I've recently read a book called Poison Frogs by Schmidt and Henkel (ISBN 978-3-930612-92-5 if anyone wants to find it online) which has a chapter all about current knowledge of dendrobatid toxins.

It raises questions as to whether the traditional theories of how the frogs benefit from the toxins, such as predator deterrence and/or a pseudo immune system, may in fact be less important than we think or in fact not relevant at all. The authors suggest that maybe the presence of skin alkaloids is more accidental than anything else, partially as the frogs don't synthesize the toxins themselves. They cite a study by Daly et al in 1994 that showed that dendrobatids could easily absorb and store alkaloids from their diet in their skin, but don't mention a specific ability to restore toxins (specifically batrachotoxin) by this means.


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