# Pumilio interest



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Wondering if people are still psyched about pumilio being available again or has the thrill worn off already. Answer as if you had some money to spend on new frogs.


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## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

i do want some pumilio, but i wont take imports for more than 100 (id rather have them at 50-75 range) dollars. and cb being 150 seems reasonable. I want a thumbnail that is an egg feeder, because im just now to the point where i want watch. as opposed to wanting to pull everything out and raise myself.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

almost need another category...

I would like to get them, but I don't know what the trigger will be. Probably having the money available!


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Assuming the next shipment of farm raised goes for $75 or less each, I'll definitely be getting a pair of Bastis or Bri Bri (if available).


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

They had farm-raised pumilio at the NARBC in Chicago for $50 each. There is room for the price to drop and, assuming they keep importing the frogs, it probably will.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

Dane there havent been many bastimentos, and I am not sure if any bri bris came in. Most of the pumilio are the almirante, I think there were 26 bastimentos that came in, but dont quote me on that.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

...whenever I can find a blue jeans, a pair would be even better!


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2004)

Well I don't really fit in any one category, but voted for CB under $100. I will most likely get F/R when they hit $75 each, but even thinking about it now at $90. With w/c pumilio producing better than c/b I have a hard time justifying spending the extra money for them, but at $90 each for F/R, the cost still seems high for the risk of bringing them into my collection. Money does come into play, if I had $3000 that was burning a hole in my pocket I would get a nice group of several morphs set up, but I don't so don't have to worry about that 

Overall, I am still excited to see so many are doing ok. It seems like the importers are really trying to keep these guys alive. Overall I think the survival rate of the imports, is much better than in the past.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Devin Edmonds said:


> They had farm-raised pumilio at the NARBC in Chicago for $50 each. There is room for the price to drop and, assuming they keep importing the frogs, it probably will.


Personally I hope they don't drop anymore than that. When pumilio were coming in from Nic. at $25 each, you started seeing pumilio in large numbers in pet stores where they either died or were sold to anyone with $25 and a whim, only to die in a different spot. Thousands of blue jeans have come into the States but where are they now? From what I've heard, these more recent shipments coming in at a higher price have attracted more dedicated people buy them and they are doing much better. I think correct pricing on wc/fr whatever you want to call them can be an important tool in getting breeding populations successfully established in the hobby.

With regard to wc breeding better than cb. I wonder how many people have had both wc and cb set up the same way and had luck breeding the wc but not the cb. How much of the difficult reputation has to do with people who have only tried cb and not gotten them to breed? I'm not trying to start trouble, I'm just trying to understand how cb got this reputation and whether it is legitimate. If the demand for cb dries up because everyone wants wc, then we could have a problem getting sustainable captive populations established.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2004)

bbrock said:


> With regard to wc breeding better than cb. I wonder how many people have had both wc and cb set up the same way and had luck breeding the wc but not the cb. How much of the difficult reputation has to do with people who have only tried cb and not gotten them to breed? I'm not trying to start trouble, I'm just trying to understand how cb got this reputation and whether it is legitimate. If the demand for cb dries up because everyone wants wc, then we could have a problem getting sustainable captive populations established.


Hey Brent, this is a great question. I am only saying what I have been told be two breeder who have both w/c and c/b (I will let you know privately the breeders if you want). Both breeders have said that out of all the pumilio pairs they have the w/c females always out produce the c/b. Also both of these guys have more than 8 pairs of pumilio. I feel we are missing something in the diets, and this needs to be fixed. 
I am not saying that c/b don't produce well, the w/c just reproduce better.

edit: another point is that I don't think the shippments will last 3 more years.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2004)

Those pumilio that went for $50 at NARBC have a story of their own, which I don't care to repeat, but that price is an exception and certainly NOT a rule. The guy that was selling them was also selling leucs for $50.


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

Right, the way a dealer or importer handles a frog is going to depend on how much they can sell it for. There is a good chance that a frog sold for $100 is going to be cared for better than a frog sold for $25. I don't think that expensive frogs are neccessarily going to end up in better hands though, there are plenty of inexperienced and just plain stupid people that have money and can afford to spend $100 on a frog.

I don't have a large desire for pumilio at this time. Their breeding behavior is fascinating and they're cute little frogs but I've never really been drawn to them like I have with other amphibians. I won't be buying any pumilio at this time, whether they cost $25 or $125.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2004)

When I bought my green pumilos this summer it wasn't a cost issue for me. I had wanted then for about 10 months and had a chance to get some and haven't regretted spending the cash for them one bit.I want to get me 3.1 to a 2.2 and kick back and enjoy the show.
Mark W.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Devin Edmonds said:


> Right, the way a dealer or importer handles a frog is going to depend on how much they can sell it for. There is a good chance that a frog sold for $100 is going to be cared for better than a frog sold for $25.


I agree with this but will note that when the $25 frogs were coming in, some of the importers treated the animals like they were gold. But they were cheap enough that they went to a lot of first time froggers.



> I don't think that expensive frogs are neccessarily going to end up in better hands though, there are plenty of inexperienced and just plain stupid people that have money and can afford to spend $100 on a frog.


A few years ago I would have agreed completely with this but don't anymore. I agree that even at $100 a lot of people with no business buying the frogs are still doing so. But what I haven't heard about with these more expensive shipments is people going into pet stores and seeing 50 or more pumilio languishing in poor conditions with a $25 price tag. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see most pet stores stock piling more than a few of these frogs without having a buyer pre-arranged. If I'm right, I don't know what else to attribute this difference to other than the higher price.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Hello all,

Some interesting ideas here. However, I would like to see one thing addressed. I personally would never buy any wild caught frogs if I knew I could get CB's. I tend to be a little more conservation minded than most and find it troubling that there is such a strong demand for WC's/farm raised. I am sure one could argue that these frogs will be collected in a sustainable way; on the other hand, I can see that there will be a decent amount of illegal collecting because of this. I remember when they stopped those shipments of auratus and pumilio coming from Costa Rica years ago and that was followed by an influx of Nicaraguan auratus.....hmmmm...... it is very easy to carry some frogs with you, cross a border into a country that allows exports, and get your money. 

I would like to urge everyone to just get on that waiting list, wait it out, and you will appreciate your CB pumilio that much more.

Justin


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## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

*pumilio*

I jumped on the pumilio band wagon after having contemplated it for several months (when they were first reported to come in). Now, the color morphs have not come in like promised, and our market is getting flooded with the almirante. They are now $60 less than when I got them, it's obvious that these prices have room to drop even more. 

I have not had any regrets in what I got though. I did realized that multiple pairs were a little more than I was ready for. 

I would continue to pay the price for the other morphs. The bastimentos have been limited in their numbers, and it's going to take a while for their prices to go down. Glenn did tell me that his in his second shipment he only got 26 bastimentos, not sure if he's got any since that shipment. 

I do recommend waiting a list out if you can, but I had been waiting two years for more bastimentos, and I needed females (which no one was letting go of). I'm pretty sure I got my females, and it was worth it!

Everyone has their own motivations, and this has been much less of a risky venture than I expected.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

Some rare morphs have come in, but they are in extremely small numbers, so they arent posting adds on kingsnake about them.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

andersonii85 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Some interesting ideas here. However, I would like to see one thing addressed. I personally would never buy any wild caught frogs if I knew I could get CB's. I tend to be a little more conservation minded than most and find it troubling that there is such a strong demand for WC's/farm raised. I am sure one could argue that these frogs will be collected in a sustainable way; on the other hand, I can see that there will be a decent amount of illegal collecting because of this. I remember when they stopped those shipments of auratus and pumilio coming from Costa Rica years ago and that was followed by an influx of Nicaraguan auratus.....hmmmm...... it is very easy to carry some frogs with you, cross a border into a country that allows exports, and get your money.
> 
> ...


Amen!


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2004)

Great post Justin.Seems patience is one of the things more people need to try and succeed at in this hobby. I have a tough time of it myself but I am getting alot better at it.
Mark W.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I also agree, but it can be tough. I bought a ton at IAD, but was ready for it, but since I have not bought too much and hope to back off even more. Need some time for everything to settle in and get breeding.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

andersonii85 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Some interesting ideas here. However, I would like to see one thing addressed. I personally would never buy any wild caught frogs if I knew I could get CB's. I tend to be a little more conservation minded than most and find it troubling that there is such a strong demand for WC's/farm raised. I am sure one could argue that these frogs will be collected in a sustainable way; on the other hand, I can see that there will be a decent amount of illegal collecting because of this. I remember when they stopped those shipments of auratus and pumilio coming from Costa Rica years ago and that was followed by an influx of Nicaraguan auratus.....hmmmm...... it is very easy to carry some frogs with you, cross a border into a country that allows exports, and get your money.
> 
> ...


Justin, I understand your concern with the possibility of improper collection. However, when I read the World Bank proposal for the INIBCO project, it gives me great hope that market forces driving demands for imported frogs may actually be able to sustain a "wild" population that is enhanced by human cultivation.

As much of the population destruction is caused by environmental destruction, I am hopeful that more projects like INIBCO can sprout and actually become a reality for monetarily self-sustainable frog habitat. Yes, it may be a little on the optimistic side, given the massive amounts of red tape and graft that seem to be bogging down the initial project, but I am an optimist. After all, with the rate of habitat destruction being what it is, I think it only positive to give an economic alternative to South American natives to make a reasonable living off of the land without causing lasting destruction to it.


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## bradadams (Jun 3, 2004)

I agree with you that we should avoid buying wc animals when cb animals are available. However in the recent imports, most of the frogs were not in the hobby and therefore captive born would not have been an option.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Homer,

I too am optimistic about INIBICO, but until I actually see the frogs here I don't know what to think. Only time will tell. I still think (from experience) that CB frogs are the way to go. Farm raised frogs just doesn't cut it for me. When I spend the money I want to be reassured it will live past..... and that I won't have to second guess what drugs I have to administer to it. 


Everyone else-

It doesn't matter how much you read about a species because I believe that it is the first hand experience that counts. I mean, I read books on engineering on occasion, but that doesn't mean I can go out and build some of this stuff. I guess what I am elluding to is that I would rather see a smaller amount of WC's come in and go to the people that are already working with them. I think we would have less losses this way- again I am conservative about this. I am not trying to be condescending or tell people to not buy them- I just think that there are better ways to go about this in terms of the recent pumilio shipments. 


Forgive me for I didn't get much sleep...lol.

Justin


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2004)

Justin and everyone,

I will agree that w/c, f/r are not for the begginer. If someone decides to go this route the need to have meds on hand be ready to run fecals, and have a seprate room for quarintine. I like seeing some of the new morphs and species comming in, as long as it is controled. 
I think this cuts down on the pressure of sumgglers. If a legal means of import is available, less people will be willing to take the risk, however I know this also allows for the summgled frogs to be washed. From what I have been hearing, the recent pumilio imorts seem to being doing better than imports in the past, but I don't like how they have to buy so many auratus to get the pumilio here.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Ben,

That was one of my gripes as well. Do we really need all of those WC auratus? The hobby is flooded with CB's as it is. I used to have to give away my Costa Rican froglets because no one would buy any.

Justin


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2004)

When will any pumillio be available again anyway? I haven't seen any in a while.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

A shipment came in thursday but they were mostly almirante.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

As an employee of one of the giant conservation organizations, I feel comfortable saying that there are some reall opportunities for market forces in the hobby to enhance conservation of these frogs in the wild. However, as Justin pointed out, we need to show restraint on our side. WC frogs are not the answer to supply general hobby demand, rather wc should be viewed more as a supplemental and most likely temporary source that can be used to establish and/or stabilize captive populations of frogs. I think we should remember there are two components to the importation issue. One is conservation and the other is humane treatment of animals. Even if all the wc animals coming in came from well managed conservation projects but the animal started dying in droves on pet store shelves, then we would see pressure to shut down the importations based on animal cruelty.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2004)

Wouldn't adding WC frogs to existing CB collections increase the bloodlines of those breeding them already? I mean, you wouldn't want to inbreed for several generations right?

Also, where did this shipment come into? Who has them for sale?


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

It came into southern florida, they will be available soon, glenn went to get his friday, and the others were being sent out so you should see some adds for them soon.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2004)

Ouch, Quality exotics has them listed on kingsnake. $125 for Bastimintos,
Alamirante, or Bruno.

Seaside has theirs listed for $150.

Are pumilios really that expensive? For $150, I'd rather get some retics.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Or you can wait a few months and get some nice captive bred basti's from Sean or Patrick for that price......hmmmm..... no brainer.

Justin


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2004)

I just didn't think that pumilios were that expensive. I knew they were hard to come by, but I heard that when available they were usually under $100.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

The almirantes are going for $90 now, glenn will probably put his add up for them soon.


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