# Auratus group dynamics



## ivas (Jan 24, 2009)

I have a group of 5 Auratus. The largest roundest one is a confirmed female (I have seen her laying). Then there are two that are nearly the same size that like to call and fight with one another, and are very receptive to the famale's "back brushing." Finally, there are two that are smaller than the others, don't fight and don't call; when breeding activity is taking place, these two follow the crowd from a distance.

Anyways, I was wondering what the deal is? I am pretty darn sure I have a 4:1 ratio. Are the little males "satellite"/"sneaker" males while the larger ones are the dominant males? Anyone else experience group dynamics such as this? They are ~4-5 years old and have had laid many viable eggs.

Tom


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## Martydart (May 14, 2010)

What size viv are they in?


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## LindseyJoe (Feb 17, 2009)

My auratus had a 1.2 ratio and I didn't have the male/male or female/female aggression you are mentioning. I would seperate the fighting males; they will continue to fight and the weaker one could end up getting hurt. 

As far as I have read, auratus are the most comfortable in pairs or trios. I would seperate the group you have into at least one pair and the rest. Maybe consider trading the additional males for a female or two...?


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## ivas (Jan 24, 2009)

They are in a 20 gallon-Long right now but will be moved very soon. I have a 32 gallon bowfront that is growing in and should be ready for frogs in a week or two. The new tank has multiple tiers and a ton of floor space. I was going to use this bowfront for the two larger males (the ones that occasionally fight), the one female, and a 1.5-yr-old probable female (2:2 ratio). Would this be a good move? I love the dynamics of the larger group and would rather not separate into pairs. I guess I can always keep an eye on them and move troublemakers.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

There are certain submissive and dominant examples of both sexes that can occur in a group dynamic.

Just as humans have personalities...I am sure frogs have something of the equivelant. There are known examples of a proven pair of proprly sexed frogs that had no problem producing viable eggs but when moved into different vivariums, seperated and placed with other frogs of the opposite sex - did not produce eggs.

There really is no "recipe" for sexual ratios or groups - only loose as hell guidlines. Yer just gonna hafta experiment and if you are not getting eggs or there is too much aggression, then take steps to seperate or adjust on the fly.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

A 20-gal long is a stretch for a 2.1 trio. My guess is that the two submissive frogs are under constant stress and should be moved. If you wanted to keep the group together, I'd suggest at least a 40 breeder with lots of hide spots.

As another poster said, auratus do best in pairs, or even 2.1 trios if they have been together for a while.

Are all five frogs closely related? If not, you could match up the extra males with a female offspring from the trio.

Good luck.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Try to post a pic or 2 of your viv and we can make some suggestions.

Off the top ofmy head...other than a larger viv, which is always a good idea for switching things up..

More heavy plantings, hides and sight barriers ect....

Moreedd desposition sites....black film cans....coco huts ect


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## ivas (Jan 24, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Try to post a pic or 2 of your viv and we can make some suggestions.











Their home for ~5 years (20 gallon long). The frogs are (left to right): small male, female, small male, large male, large male.









This is the (32 gallon bowfront) vivarium I am moving 4 Auratus into. Just waiting on the plants to root better and grow a little before introducing frogs. I am also going to plant a Cryptanthus on the ground level.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Rehoming frogs into a new viv is always a good way to kickstart breeding as it shakes things up and forces everyone to re-establish territories ect

but

you are going to a move vertical tank so you will actually loss some space due to the decreased terrestrial footprint...if that makes sense.

Are all the Auratus the same morph?


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## ivas (Jan 24, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> you are going to a move vertical tank so you will actually loss some space due to the decreased terrestrial footprint...if that makes sense.


Yes, that makes sense. I tried maximizing "ground space" by making the multiple levels and loading up the driftwood. Any suggestions on a plant or two that is good at adding "levels"?



Philsuma said:


> Rehoming frogs into a new viv is always a good way to kickstart breeding as it shakes things up and forces everyone to re-establish territories ect


They are constantly breeding in their current tank (1 clutch per week if I remove the eggs). Anyways, as I said earlier, the 20-long will get the two smaller 5yr old frogs and two 1.5yr olds; the bowfront will get the female, the two larger males, and a suspected 1.5yr old female. That's the plan, at least--I am sure some swapping may occur. Is it a problem housing offspring with parents? 



Philsuma said:


> Are all the Auratus the same morph?


Yes, they are all Michael Shrom T & B Auratus (beautiful F2 frogs obtained from DancingFrogs); anyone want to trade around to spread genetics?


Tomas


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

ivas said:


> Yes, that makes sense. I tried maximizing "ground space" by making the multiple levels and loading up the driftwood. Any suggestions on a plant or two that is good at adding "levels"?
> 
> Yes, they are all Michael Shrom T & B Auratus (beautiful F2 frogs obtained from DancingFrogs); anyone want to trade around to spread genetics?


IMO auratus is one species that will not use a "tiered" vivarium. A double or even triple tier is great for pumilio and most thumbs and I make all my pumilio vivs that why - multiple levels and touching broms and large leafed plants and vines that all touch and form a frog "super highway" or at least an interstate system or toll road. . That said....Auratus, Tincs and Leucs- all heavier bodied darts will not use that design.

I had 3 Mike ShromT&B from back in 2005....some of my first frogs! I traded them to a buddy that lives closeby and I can either contact him or put you in contact with him - he's on here as well (DB) but not too active.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Phil's right, you are losing surface area going to the bowfront. A 20-gal long has the same bottom area as a 29-gal. The bowfronts made from that platform are 30 inches long and I believe have a capacility of 36 gallons.

Construction of shelves can help, but if it was me, I'd still only keep a pair or a 2.1 trio in the new viv. The two more submissive frogs will be less stressed in the 20 long and, who knows, you might have a pair. BTW - your tanks look great.


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## ivas (Jan 24, 2009)

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll do a breeding trio in the bowfront, and 4 smaller auratus in the long tank. That plan will free up a temporary-housing 10 gallon tank, and give more room to all frogs. Is it a problem housing similarly sized offspring with parents?

I think I already know the answer (no), but would my 2.1 Citronellas prefer that bowfront over their 20-long?


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