# Sexing phylobates terribilis



## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

I have 2 orange ones a little over a year old now and they trying to sex them. The slightly smaller one has a definite pouch under its chin like my auratus look when they call. Inflated like a marble. The larger one doesn't have a chin like that. Would the marble chin looking one be a confirmed mail or could a female look like that too?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Photos would help -- by this age a male should begin to call. Your description of an inflated gular pouch without calling seems a little odd and may point to a weight or water retention issue caused by an osmotic imbalance. Could be nothing -- I don't want to worry you for nothing -- that's why clear photos would help.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Fahad said:


> Photos would help -- by this age a male should begin to call. Your description of an inflated gular pouch without calling seems a little odd and may point to a weight or water retention issue caused by an osmotic imbalance. Could be nothing -- I don't want to worry you for nothing -- that's why clear photos would help.


I'll try and move them into something to get a better picture when I get home.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Play some terribilis calls and see what happens. Terribilis are really hard to sex, even with great photos. Calling, or lack thereof, is the best way to determine what have.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

JasonE said:


> Play some terribilis calls and see what happens. Terribilis are really hard to sex, even with great photos. Calling, or lack thereof, is the best way to determine what have.


Agreed! I asked for photos because of the throat description. Might be nothing but it raises alarm bells because there's no calling.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Fahad said:


> Agreed! I asked for photos because of the throat description. Might be nothing but it raises alarm bells because there's no calling.


I missed that part. Yeah I'd like to see what you're talking about. I don't remember terribilis having calling patches like you can see in pumilio.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

JasonE said:


> I missed that part. Yeah I'd like to see what you're talking about. I don't remember terribilis having calling patches like you can see in pumilio.


Sometimes males develop a dark patch, but the ‘swollen like a marble’ description seems odd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Fahad said:


> Sometimes males develop a dark patch, but the ‘swollen like a marble’ description seems odd.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah I just went through some old photos and you can see noticeable dark spot on one of my males. But yeah. Photos OP. Something doesn't sound right.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

I moved them into the new empty nano enclosure just for the photos. As you can see the one on the right has something different going on. The one on the left may have the dark patch you are all referring to but is the bigger frog. What do you think is going on? it definitely looks a inflated in the chin area.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

So the dark patch you're seeing on the one on the left is just pigmentation, not the colouring seen on a gular pouch that's been distended many times from calling. The one on the right ... that's an issue. Could be inflammation connected to injury or infection, could be an osmotic imbalance. 

I'm wondering if anyone else on the board has seen this before -- it doesn't present as classic 'bloat' because the rest of the frog isn't puffed up.


Has this frog ever injured itself? 
Does it feed in the presence of the other frog?
Is it an aggressive feeder? 
How long has its throat looked like that?
Does it hide a lot?
What kind of substrate and furnishings do you use?
There's a template for aiding in diagnosis of frog issues used on this board below:

Answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste):

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Um. Everything Fahad said we need but I think you might need a vet. I've never seen bloating in the throat like that. It looks like he's in mid-call. I honestly have no idea what to think.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Some kind of local edema or hydrops disorder if its hanging out like that constantly. Abnormal.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

JasonE said:


> Um. Everything Fahad said we need but I think you might need a vet. I've never seen bloating in the throat like that. It looks like he's in mid-call. I honestly have no idea what to think.


The most obvious thing that I missed -- yes, a vet is in order. Sorry, I answered that when I was tired.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Fahad said:


> The most obvious thing that I missed -- yes, a vet is in order. Sorry, I answered that when I was tired.


To be clear I wasn't calling you out lol.

Also, a majority of health issues can be diagnosed and treated at home. We're pretty good at that as a hobby by now. But I've personally never seen anything like this.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

JasonE said:


> To be clear I wasn't calling you out lol.
> 
> Also, a majority of health issues can be diagnosed and treated at home. We're pretty good at that as a hobby by now. But I've personally never seen anything like this.


LOL no worries ... I asked some of the questions I did because it may be indicative of a systemic problem brought on by a separate stressor ... I have seen similar once ... in a female terribilis that injured her wrist. But given that correlation is not causation, I'm shooting in the dark.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

I'm wondering if anyone else on the board has seen this before -- it doesn't present as classic 'bloat' because the rest of the frog isn't puffed up.


Has this frog ever injured itself? Not that I can tell.
Does it feed in the presence of the other frog? Yes. It will feed in the presence of even my hand moving things around
Is it an aggressive feeder? No
How long has its throat looked like that? I noticed yesterday.
Does it hide a lot? No
What kind of substrate and furnishings do you use? Homemade ABG. I use it with other Darts as well and have never lost one. The only thing not made by a pet supply manufacturer in my DIY mix is crushed up Cowboy Charcoal,
There's a template for aiding in diagnosis of frog issues used on this board below:

Answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste):

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ? Phylobates Terribilis Orange. Purchased as Tadpoles a little over a year ago. Online.

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type? Fluctuates this time of the year. 70 - 85 ( Now 80). We did have a heat spell here in Mass and I ran out to get a floor standing AC for the reptile room. Temps did go 90 for a day while I resolved it. I added a fan to the room and increased misting. I was thinking this could have caused the issue 

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium? LED bar. Not much heat.

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)? Mistking setup 10 seconds morning and night allows it to look wet and dry out mid day. I manually activate the mistking if I am going to feed them to bring them out of hiding sometimes RO water. 

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they). Exoterra 18x18x24, 4/5 glass top 1/5 screen in front.

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)? Mostly an assortment of the 3 main types of fruit flies, Melonogaster, Hydei, Wingless dusted with Repashy Calcium, Plus. I will on occasion give these guys a few 3/8 crickets if my fruit flies are having a bad culture day to conserve them for my other frogs that could only consume flies.

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ? No

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ? No

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ? Never once. I will scoot them onto something maybe going as far as touching with the top of my fingernail if I want to move them.

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

aapuzzo said:


> Is it an aggressive feeder? No


This is unusual for most terribilis. Possible it's intimidated by its tankmate, even though it's not hiding.



aapuzzo said:


> 2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type? Fluctuates this time of the year. 70 - 85 ( Now 80). We did have a heat spell here in Mass and I ran out to get a floor standing AC for the reptile room. Temps did go 90 for a day while I resolved it. I added a fan to the room and increased misting. I was thinking this could have caused the issue


It's definitely a stressor and I'm surprised they survived temperatures that high. There are keepers who will tell you their terribilis are okay at 80 or so but I wouldn't want to find out, and higher than that is a real possibility for death -- I was just talking to a keeper that lost 4 frogs that way. You did add a fan and created conditions for evaporative cooling, though...

Regarding the tank, to be honest it looks cramped for a couple of yearling terribilis. They do like to roam, and that one point about the frog not feeding aggressively makes me think it's too subordinate around the other one ...

Either that swollen area is the actual problem or it's an imbalance caused by some other issue. 

I'd maybe separate them, work on a larger enclosure and consult with a vet. I don't think that's going to resolve on its own. If it _is_ an osmotic imbalance, in theory a shallow dip in Amphibian Ringer's Solution would help alleviate it, but that's only supportive therapy, it's not a 'cure' and you still don't know what's causing it.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Yeah. I've never seen a terribilis that didn't fit every fly in it's mouth that it could as fast as it could. That's really concerning. 

Those temps are concerning too. I never let my terribilis get above 75° and I've heard of people losing them when temps got into the 80's.

You need a find a local exotic vet that can take a look at it.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Fahad said:


> This is unusual for most terribilis. Possible it's intimidated by its tankmate, even though it's not hiding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I misunderstood what you meant by aggressive feeder. Yes they are aggressive towards their food . With other animals that I keep aggressive feeder means do they fight over food which they do not. That's why I was tossing them the small crickets when I have a slow culture day.

I did some reading online and found an impacted or constipated frog can show those symptoms and to place them in water to check for droppings. I was going to try this. I wish I noticed exactly when this happened but I can't say.

The temperature could have definitely done and I resolved it as quick as I could getting a floor standing AC setup the same day and modifying a window with plexiglass for the vent. My central air unit failed and caught me off-guard. If I had a few tanks I would have moved them into the basement but with my setup that wouldn't be realistic. Buying a temporary AC was the best option. I did contemplate adding a ziplock bag of ice but didn't know if that would be a bad idea.

I went out today and was please to have located one of the new style 18x18x18 Dart Frog Exo Terra's. I'm going to isolate it in there for the time being and use it as a holder so I can add more vertical space in the other one.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Personally I would never put a dart frog with an unknown edema in an enforced soak.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Just a note that while terribilis will absolutely use vertical space, they need space to wander and move explosively the way they're able to. Minimum footprint I'm personally comfortable with is 36" x 18", something to consider. They won't keel over and die in smaller, but they're not going to be at their best if they can only wander in relatively tight circles.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I think I have mentioned before, that it would be great if a company designed a reconstitute amphibians ringers. 

There is one in fluid concentrate, I believe, but it wont store as well as a powder, say, that could be mixed per gallon use per packet, if thats possible.

The problem with soaking is in great part people using RO de ionized water which in the case of a disordered fluids problem in a frog, would not be the thing to do.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

aapuzzo said:


> The temperature could have definitely done and I resolved it as quick as I could getting a floor standing AC setup the same day and modifying a window with plexiglass for the vent. My central air unit failed and caught me off-guard. If I had a few tanks I would have moved them into the basement but with my setup that wouldn't be realistic. Buying a temporary AC was the best option.


It is great that you moved on this as quickly and competently as you did; not everyone does, either because they haven't budgeted for unpredictable but inevitable problems or simply aren't appropriately concerned. It sure could have turned out worse, so you deserve props for that.

Plus, now you have another AC that can help you keep the frog room cool enough for the terribs.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Ok I have a stupid question but when looking to buy another Orange Terrib I came accross Blackjungles listing that is Out Of Stock. Regardless look at the picture and the throat of the frog. it looks just like mine??? Are we sure this isn't normal?









Phyllobates terribilis 'Orange' (froglet)-F-PTO







www.blackjungleterrariumsupply.com


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

aapuzzo said:


> Ok I have a stupid question but when looking to buy another Orange Terrib I came accross Blackjungles listing that is Out Of Stock. Regardless look at the picture and the throat of the frog. it looks just like mine??? Are we sure this isn't normal?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That doesn't look right either. And if it was a temporary thing it remains an odd choice for a photo.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I have seen eager boys across taxon Call Ready and Affirmed!

But when its just full there, all the time per no behavioral impetus, it could be a locality pocket for edema presentation.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Fahad said:


> That doesn't look right either. And if it was a temporary thing it remains an odd choice for a photo.


Also a picture from 2 different angles. I have been searching online and I am finding other frogs that look like this.


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## aapuzzo (Apr 20, 2020)

Kmc said:


> I have seen eager boys across taxon Call Ready and Affirmed!
> 
> But when its just full there, all the time per no behavioral impetus, it could be a locality pocket for edema presentation.



I'm a little confused. Are you just saying maybe one locality displays this trait?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Im trying to tell you that if the gular area is extended with no behavioral impetus its abnormal.

If i were present i would be able to determine it per a gentle palp of area.

Looking online is fine. Looking at your animal, across a time frame and researching edema - Better.

And an ARAV Vet - that is what you should do.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

No. That's not what Im saying. Im saying its Not A Trait *just because its a constant presentation. If its always there its a symptom of something that causes fluids to pocket.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

To further clarify, there would never be a special 'sp locality' trait of a hanging swollen throat of any anuran species.

I realize photos on the internet automatically incite a mental response of attentiveness but the truth is the connection to any real accountability and foundation is none.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

OHH i get it. No i meant an area on the body being "local" not a geo locality of sp.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

aapuzzo said:


> Also a picture from 2 different angles. I have been searching online and I am finding other frogs that look like this.


That could mean a whole lot of different things, none of them good in my opinion, based on having seen (and raised) a few hundred P. terribilis and years of experience with anurans in general ... I think your safest bet is to find a vet to at least try to narrow things down.


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