# Can orchids go in my paludarium or is it too wet? Any ideas what species?



## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

I want to try my hand in growing some orchids in my soon to be cinnamon frog paludarium, so how wet is it you ask? well its pretty wet but the background stays dry and doesn't wick water to the outside surface. But in the morning the front of the tank is so covered in condensation that you cant see through it. 

If you think I can grow orchids I'm looking for ones that are inexpensive and if possible from Asia.

The pictures don't do a good job showing how wet the tank is.























Trust me the background looks much less pale in person pictures were taken in a dark room with the flash on.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Do you have a misting system, or mist by hand?


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

This is a question I have been thinking about a lot. Orchids naturally grow in exactly the same climate/environment that dart frogs come from. In theory, they should do well in a dart frog vivarium.

However, most orchids kept in greenhouses are kept at lower humidity, in the 50 to 60% range in the winter when external air turnover is minimal.

I wonder if the micro-climate we create in a vivarium is somehow different than what we see in a tropical forest, even if the humidity is the same.

Air flow would be one thing that is vastly different. You have a huge amount of air turnover in a forest that would be difficult to replicate, while still maintaining humidity, in a vivarium. That may lead to a lot more condensation in the vivarium and orchids don't like to be wet all the time.

That begs the question why other plants that come from the same environment do well in vivariums. Interesting topic.

If you do a search on orchid and vivarium, you will come up with a number of hits on species that are recommended for a vivarium.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fredk said:


> I wonder if the micro-climate we create in a vivarium is somehow different than what we see in a tropical forest


Very. We don't simply replicate 'wild' conditions in a viv; we provide captive conditions in which the animals thrive (similarly for plants, really). The "slice of the rainforest ecosystem" mindset is misleading.

There is no one "tropical forest microclimate". The canopy and the leaf litter are vastly different habitats.

Orchids grow in nearly every habitat imaginable, which is why the number of orchid species suitable for growing in a frog viv is much less than the total number.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Very. We don't simply replicate 'wild' conditions in a viv; we provide captive conditions in which the animals thrive (similarly for plants, really). The "slice of the rainforest ecosystem" mindset is misleading.
> 
> There is no one "tropical forest microclimate". The canopy and the leaf litter are vastly different habitats.
> 
> Orchids grow in nearly every habitat imaginable, which is why the number of orchid species suitable for growing in a frog viv is much less than the total number.


True. The pedant in me must point out thought, the frogs kept in the hobby don't live exclusively in the litter. In fact many seem to wander up into the canopy by varying amounts. It is not a simple question to answer.

The real question is whether or not the environment in a vivarium can be modified enough to both satisfy the frogs and orchids. I suspect that in a small space like 18 x 18 x 18 that might be difficult.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

I would suspect at a minimum, to accommodate orchids an internal vivarium fan would be required to increase evaporation of wet surfaces. I know my brother had a number of high volume fans running in his orchid greenhouse to prevent mold/mildew/rot.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

What kind of lighting are you running? That will determine a lot. There are several easy orchid species. But, a little more info is needed. A fan might not be a bad idea but, not a deal breaker with some plants. I really don't thing open water drives up the humidity that much. It does to a degree but, that can be off set with venting easily.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Amazon.com : BLOOMIFY Mounted Miniature Orchid - Haraella retrocalla - Wrapped with Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss - 3" Mount : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com : BLOOMIFY Mounted Miniature Orchid - Haraella retrocalla - Wrapped with Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss - 3" Mount : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com





Cheap and I think from asia. I got some plants from these people and these were great. Others were tiny or miss labeled. But for $12....... Put it in a place that gets good light and let it get slightly dry between misting. They grow well for my in tanks with no fan even.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Do you have a misting system, or mist by hand?


Don't need one, the water in the bottom keeps everything very wet, tank needs to be very wet to support cinnamon frogs



bulbophyllum said:


> What kind of lighting are you running? That will determine a lot. There are several easy orchid species. But, a little more info is needed. A fan might not be a bad idea but, not a deal breaker with some plants. I really don't thing open water drives up the humidity that much. It does to a degree but, that can be off set with venting easily.


Um kinda embarrassing but that tank has a standard led bulb in a exotera fixture. I really need to get a different light... Any good bulbs that could go in a exoterra fixture?


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

bulbophyllum said:


> Amazon.com : BLOOMIFY Mounted Miniature Orchid - Haraella retrocalla - Wrapped with Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss - 3" Mount : Patio, Lawn & Garden
> 
> 
> Amazon.com : BLOOMIFY Mounted Miniature Orchid - Haraella retrocalla - Wrapped with Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss - 3" Mount : Patio, Lawn & Garden
> ...


Nice. The flowers are very pretty.

I don't currently have a vivarium. I'm working on an 18 x 18 x 48 build. I'll probably build my own lights. I'm not very impressed with what is available commercially.

All my orchid knowledge comes from my brother who used to run a 1,500 sq ft greenhouse in his back yard. Mostly he cultured and I enjoyed the flowers, but I did learn a lot along the way.

I've always wanted to keep one of the long petaled Phragmipediums like this one, P. humboldtii:








They do need more light though. Oh, it probably needs more room than I can provide in my current build, but I have plans ...


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

@IShouldGetSomeSleep I think not having a misting system might work in your favour. You can spot water the orchid roots without getting the crown or leaf apex wet. These are the two areas where rot could set in on an orchid if it does not dry properly between watering.

@bulbophyllum Do you grow the orchids on bark in your vivarium or do you use some other media?


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

I work with darts, as most of us here, so I can’t speak to your specific frog’s environment and needs, but as an orchid newbie, I’ve had some success with a couple of pleurothalis and a lepanthes species in my tanks. I made sure to place them mounted higher up in respect to vents and fans, relatively drier spots that I can then mist specifically as needed. Well, one of them did get a bit trampled by frogs, but it is primarily their tank, so something to keep in mind as well.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Don't need one, the water in the bottom keeps everything very wet, tank needs to be very wet to support cinnamon frogs


Almost no orchids like to be “very wet” all the time. Pleurothallids do well in vivs if their roots are consistently moist, but not sopping wet. Most other orchids need a wet/dry cycle.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Um kinda embarrassing but that tank has a standard led bulb in a exotera fixture. I really need to get a different light... Any good bulbs that could go in a exoterra fixture?


I have never used one but look for something like this. 
https://www.amazon.com/UEETEK-Energ...636331941&sprefix=jungle+dawn,aps,192&sr=8-11



fredk said:


> Do you grow the orchids on bark in your vivarium or do you use some other media?


I either push the roots into live growing moss or I tie/pin them to a branch or background with a pad of sphagnum around the roots.


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## Ian44 (Sep 26, 2021)

My 2 cents as a professional orchid grower.

There are 25,000 + known species of orchids plus hundreds of thousands of hybrids. You can find one that works for your conditions, I've seen semi-aquatic orchids (many species love wet feet) to desert dwelling species.

Air movement is key.

I'd start with a phalaenopsis, and see how it goes. you can find many different size and requirement specific plants. 

I think, from what I've gathered for the many viv shop websites, is that this hobby is over burdening the wild stock of minature orchids. I see masses of freshly imported orchids for sale... to anybody. Not to be mean but most of those are expert only plants. It may seem like these plants are being lab grown, but most are actually divisions of wild collected plants and they should be treated the same as WC darts.


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

bulbophyllum said:


> ...
> I either push the roots into live growing moss or I tie/pin them to a branch or background with a pad of sphagnum around the roots.


So just a bit of moss for moisture retention then. You don't worry about needing to remove/move the plant as some point?


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Ian44 said:


> I'd start with a phalaenopsis, and see how it goes. you can find many different size and requirement specific plants.


Phalaenopsis, while cheap and available, would do terribly in a "very wet" enclosed environment with little air movement, their roots would rot within weeks. And there are lots of growers in the states selling divisions of their own plants, rather than importing.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

fredk said:


> This is a question I have been thinking about a lot. Orchids naturally grow in exactly the same climate/environment that dart frogs come from. In theory, they should do well in a dart frog vivarium.


This is often cited but not correct. Orchids do grow where dart frogs live but they don't grow on the ground where it's most humid. Our vivariums tend to be much more humid than the levels of forest where you find orchids growing. Similarly, orchids require different temps than most dart frogs. We actually only have a few species of orchids adept at vivarium life compared to all the orchids available on the market.

Generally speaking, orchids need drier areas and cooler temps than most dart frogs. If you discover you've created a good area for an orchid to thrive, then add one. Typically you can only create an environment suitable for both orchid and darts if your enclosure is big enough to have true gradients of moisture and temperature.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Ian44 said:


> I think, from what I've gathered for the many viv shop websites, is that this hobby is over burdening the wild stock of minature orchids. I see masses of freshly imported orchids for sale... to anybody. Not to be mean but most of those are expert only plants. It may seem like these plants are being lab grown, but most are actually divisions of wild collected plants and they should be treated the same as WC darts.


I'd like to talk about this, but not in this thread. Please join me here:









Commercially wild collected plants in the hobby?


I think, from what I've gathered for the many viv shop websites, is that this hobby is over burdening the wild stock of minature orchids. I see masses of freshly imported orchids for sale... to anybody. Not to be mean but most of those are expert only plants. It may seem like these plants are...




www.dendroboard.com





Back to you, @IShouldGetSomeSleep .


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## fredk (Oct 25, 2021)

JasonE said:


> ...
> 
> Generally speaking, orchids need drier areas and cooler temps than most dart frogs. If you discover you've created a good area for an orchid to thrive, then add one. Typically you can only create an environment suitable for both orchid and darts if your enclosure is big enough to have true gradients of moisture and temperature.


There are plenty of orchids that like it warm. You are correct though that I should have specified that *some* orchids grow in the same conditions as dart frogs. The genus Phragmipedium is one that comes to mind. Some are epiphytic and some grow on the ground. Their elevation (400 to 2,200 metres) and temperature (70 to 80 F days, cooler nights) ranges match those of many darts .

For sure it is a small subset, but there are many more species of orchids than darts.


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## Ian44 (Sep 26, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I'd like to talk about this, but not in this thread. Please join me here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


apologies!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Ian44 said:


> apologies!


No worries. I think your post was relevant, but my taking it farther would not have been.


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## Ian44 (Sep 26, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Phalaenopsis, while cheap and available, would do terribly in a "very wet" enclosed environment with little air movement, their roots would rot within weeks. And there are lots of growers in the states selling divisions of their own plants, rather than importing.


I've grown and know many other growers who keep phals in vivarium, terrariums, and glass jars. If you know what you're doing, they'll be just fine.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Ian44 said:


> I've grown and know many other growers who keep phals in vivarium, terrariums, and glass jars. If you know what you're doing, they'll be just fine.


FWIW, the current situation is a 12 x 12 x 18" viv with a few inches of standing water in the bottom, humidity at saturation and a keeper completely new to orchid growing who is going to need to attend to the needs of the vertebrate inhabitants above all else. That's likely underpinning much of the advice.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

After reading you're recommendations I have come to the conclusion that orchids would not fair well in the environment I need to create in order to house my cinnamon frogs.
Perhaps I will try growing orchids when I set up some other viv. But because I'm currently obsessed with mossy frogs It will likely be a long time before I keep a species with which orchids can thrive in. Thank you all for helping me


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## DTWGulo (Jul 18, 2020)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> If you think I can grow orchids I'm looking for ones that are inexpensive and if possible from Asia.


I grow orchids in mine. I'd have to locate my species tags, so I don't know all of them off the top of my head. Pictured is Stelis argentatus.
I do use rather bright lights and a MistKing system. This was my first go at growing anything terrestrial at all, so getting blooms was, for me, a hell of a success.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

your tank looks too dry for my frogs I just don't think I can emulate that.


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## Joshuapd (Feb 28, 2021)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> I want to try my hand in growing some orchids in my soon to be cinnamon frog paludarium, so how wet is it you ask? well its pretty wet but the background stays dry and doesn't wick water to the outside surface. But in the morning the front of the tank is so covered in condensation that you cant see through it.
> 
> If you think I can grow orchids I'm looking for ones that are inexpensive and if possible from Asia.
> 
> ...





IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> I want to try my hand in growing some orchids in my soon to be cinnamon frog paludarium, so how wet is it you ask? well its pretty wet but the background stays dry and doesn't wick water to the outside surface. But in the morning the front of the tank is so covered in condensation that you cant see through it.
> 
> I grow dozens of orchids in my 125g paludarium. I have mist king and several ventilation fans. I mostly grow miniatures. Look for cool or intermediate growing plants. Eg: Bulbophyllum, masdevallias, restrepias, pleurothallis, draculas.


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## Dr. Manhattan (Oct 28, 2016)

https://reptilesmagazine.com/breeding-the-cinnamon-frog/



OP,

I hope this article helps you on your quest for cinnamon frogs. Their was a more expansive article on these frogs care in the March 2012 issue. They look very cool.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Dr. Manhattan said:


> https://reptilesmagazine.com/breeding-the-cinnamon-frog/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you I didn't have any information on raising the tadpoles but now I do, thanks for the info!


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