# 75g Dart frog/fish Vivarium, would like input



## djbn (May 17, 2012)

Ok this will be my second dart frog terrarium. I will be using a 75g long aquarium that I've been using as a Salt water reef tank for the last 2 years (it will of course be cleaned). So I've decided that I would like to make a Vivarium. It will consist of a water feature with a water fall located in the center of the tank. Their will also be a large rock wall, similar to what you might find in a saltwater tank that will connect to the waterfall. I've included two pictures of the lay out that I made in microsoft paint real quick. They're far from artistic but I figured it might help people see what I'm envisioning. The first picture is an overhead view and the second picture is a front view that shows the layering of the ground.

*Equipment*- Some of the things I'd like to have in the tank.
Lighting- 4 bulb T-5 light has built in timers and LED moonlights (meant for 
saltwater tanks but I think I can switch out the bulbs and be fine)
Watering system-
- Exo terra Monsoon misting system (main watering system, most 
programable)
- Zoo Med repti fogger ( more for the fog effect but will also help 
humidity)
- Will need to find a **small** water filter that can be hidden in the 
water feature any suggestions?? (planning on keeping small fish)
- Need to find a small reliable pump to power the waterfall that can also
be hidden
- Small Whisper air pump to aerate the water feature and provide fresh air 
to the tank ( may use two, one in the water feature with an air stone 
and one hidden in the rock wall for more fresh air).
Misc
- 2 small 10g hospital tanks underneath in the cabinet.
- glass top for the main tank
- Need a good humidity and temperature display, any suggestions??

Livestock
- I would like to put 2 or 3 different types of dart frogs in the tank. I know people have mixed feelings about this but I would like to try it. I've heard that if you raise them all together as froglets there is not much of a problem. I've also heard that with this size of a tank its ok to have more than one type because theres enough room. Anyone have experience with multiple kinds in large tanks? What two types would get along ok with each other?


- The only other livestock that im considering is a few small community fish to go in the water feature. Something docile that would not bother the frogs. I was thinking of either guppies or something like that. Anyone have any suggestions there?

Any and all input would be greatly appreciated. I'm really excited about doing this and will keep updating this thread as things progress.


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

I was thinking or having 2 azureus and 2 or 3 leuc's


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I'd recommend leucs OR Azureus... Not both...

-Christian


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

If you're going to want to put dart frogs in there (and you want to see them out in the open most of the time) you'll want to add copius amount of leaf litter so that they feel safe (and as a result will be out in the open more). You'll want to have lots of easily accessible hiding spots as well to make them feel confident about venturing out in the open -- or else they might spend their time just hiding.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

djbn said:


> I would like to put 2 or 3 different types of dart frogs in the tank. I know people have mixed feelings about this but I would like to try it. I've heard that if you raise them all together as froglets there is not much of a problem. I've also heard that with this size of a tank its ok to have more than one type because theres enough room. Anyone have experience with multiple kinds in large tanks? What two types would get along ok with each other?


For information about mixing, I direct you to this sticky in the beginners forum:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

Reading through it is a very good idea. Along with any other stickies you find.

EDIT:
this is also of relevance:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

Thanks all for the input so far. I did plan on putting leaf litter in I just didnt draw it up in the diagram. Also thanks for posting the thread for mixing species. I think my tank being a 75g will have more than enough room for everything. I plan on putting a valve at the bottom of the tank for easy draining for water changes for the fish. When i say fish im talking about 3 small fish max. Just enough to add another element to the tank without adding to much to the maintenance. I would still like an input from someone who has kept fish in a Vivarium before as to what fish would do well. I want a timid fish that would not be aggressive towards the frogs. 
As far as the frogs go i will be doing more research into what groups can do well together. Since my Vivarium will be cut in half by its water feature i think this will play a big role in keeping the frogs separated anyways (only considering the terrestrial dart frogs) but non the less i will look into it further.

Can anyone give some advice as far as the equipment questions? Is the light that i want to use to much? also I'm still trying to find a good but small water filter for the fish. Any suggestions?

Here is the light i would like to get
http://www.aquatraders.com/48-inch-4x54W-T5-Aquarium-Light-Digi-Timer-Fixture-p/52325.htm


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

hypostatic said:


> For information about mixing, I direct you to this sticky in the beginners forum:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


I STRONGLY...repeat STRONGLY reccomend reading through the entire thread, or even just Ed's posts. He gives extremely helpfull information.

In the end, you can do whatever you want to do, but Leucs and Tincs are not a very good idea. They are both terrestrial, which means they are fighting for the same space. Also, since they are both dendrobates, they can interbreed and create hybrids, which are strongly frowned upon in the dart community....plus other cons. 

If you are set on mixing two frogs, get one arboreal one (a thumbnail most likely) and a terrestrial one that are both located in a similar region.Also, get two different different ......genus, family?? whatever level of classification that is haha so that they cannot interbreed with each other. A good pair based on that info (someone experienced correct me if im wrong) would be a Auratus  and imitators
Did that work with the links?? ^^ I hope so, im still working on my formatting skills. 

I apologize in advance if those frogs do not work. I am not very good at scientific names and classification and am not sure at what level the frogs cannot reproduce. Someone with more experience please comment.

Also, Ed (in the original mixing thread) encourages people not to mix frogs because thats when the territorial and defense mechanisms come into play. With other reptiles/amphibians, such as geckos, chameleons, newts, etc., the darts look at them more as "cage furniture" rather that conflicting animals. 

I encourage you to look into mixing different reptiles/amphibians with your darts (pick one species of darts) so that they fit into the different niches in the cage. Example: A terrestrial dart (tincs) and an arboreal chameleon (panther).

Mixing species is completely fine IMO. BUT (and this is a big but hehehe) you must make sure you have the space, environment, time, information, and dedication to do so. 

Others may contradict or agree with me, but please do it politely. 

Hope it helps,

-Jeremy


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

Thanks Jeremy for the information.To be honest Im not sure if i will even mix two types of frogs or not. Its just a possibility. On the other hand I still really want to do fish in the water feature, any suggestions on that?


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

Yea no prob man..i just surprised myself. Last time i checked i was a newbie, and now i see myself giving out useful info, quoting other peeps and stuff haha

For fish in the water feature, it really doesnt matter. As long as you dont get something that would bother the frogs (i.e. archerfish, which wouldnt work in here anyways) then you can literally just go to a fish store and pick out some small, community, freshwater fish. Neon tetras are always cool...and the various "barbs" tiger barbs, cherry barbs, and gold barbs are relatively communal and easy to care for. 

Good luck,

-Jeremy

Oh and ps, i hope my other message didnt sound too condecending, i was just worried about getting useful, correct information. I didnt think about how it would sound to you.  haha


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

i'd go with a mistking over a monsoon for misting

make sure to seed the viv with springtails

I would just fill the tank with about 5-6 leucs and call it a day. They do good in groups. Azureus do good in pairs. Leucs are awesome frogs. Very bold, very beautiful and easy to take care of


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## zach77 (Feb 8, 2012)

I've got that light on a few 75's. It will be more than sufficient, IMO.


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

What advantage does the mistking have over the monsoon? I looked at the mist kings but they just seemed a little to big for my operation. Im only using 2 tanks. No worries though,i plan to let the pants and moss grow for a month or so before I add the frogs, just so everything balances out for a bit. During that time I will also seed with springtails. 
Thanks, I plan on ordering the light today and a few other things. I also picked up some plants this weekend so ill try to post some pictures later.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

If you haven't stumbled across it already, then feel free to glance at some of my build log linked in the signature.
I was first opting for a pond with freshwater fish and changed my mind. I also wanted to put some anoles/chameleons in with the frogs and changed my mind. 
This is my first build and I did it with a 150 gallon.
Another thing I would differently would be to put in the MistKing system. I built mine on a pretty small budget and pretty happy with it. I managed to do my whole setup for about the cost of what the MistKings run for, but if I invest anymore into my tank, then I would scrap my DIY mister for a reliable one.
I'm not sure if any of my experience would help you, but I thought I'd share it with you if interested.
Good luck and I'll be watching to see how yours develops!
-Chris


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

Ok so some updates. I purchase a water pump and a small filter that will be easily hidden. More pics on that stuff to come. But i've attached some pictures of the bigger plants i will be putting in the Viv for those of you who are following this build. I've also ordered my light which should be in by the end of the week. I'm hoping to find some time this weekend to start building. More pics to come


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

I just thought I'd add this. As you can see from the pic below, even with just plants in the tank my humidity is at 99%. I havent watered the plants in two days now and the plants are still keeping the humidity at the tanks max with it being closed with the new glass lids I just had made.


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

kitcolebay said:


> If you haven't stumbled across it already, then feel free to glance at some of my build log linked in the signature.
> I was first opting for a pond with freshwater fish and changed my mind. I also wanted to put some anoles/chameleons in with the frogs and changed my mind.
> This is my first build and I did it with a 150 gallon.
> Another thing I would differently would be to put in the MistKing system. I built mine on a pretty small budget and pretty happy with it. I managed to do my whole setup for about the cost of what the MistKings run for, but if I invest anymore into my tank, then I would scrap my DIY mister for a reliable one.
> ...


I tried to check out your link but it doesnt work


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

As for fish is reccomended tetras. You can o with the traditional neons or go for something more exotic I think my brother has rummy nose tetras. They look pretty cool and with te drift wood in his tank giving it a brownish amazon look it really pops.


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## DaveRego (May 29, 2010)

Pacblu202 said:


> As for fish is reccomended tetras. You can o with the traditional neons or go for something more exotic I think my brother has rummy nose tetras. They look pretty cool and with te drift wood in his tank giving it a brownish amazon look it really pops.


Rummynose might be a bit of a pain. They need awesome water quality which might be a bit more difficult in a viv. I found some captive bread cardinals a while back and four months later only lost one of fifty.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

Hmm...not sure why.

We'll try this...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/81687-6ft-150-gal-first-time-palu-build.html

Like I said, it's nothing special, but some of what I went through doing my first viv. Looking forward to doing my 2nd. I have a 75 gallon in the garage waiting for my son and I to get busy on it.

-Chris


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## DaveRego (May 29, 2010)

Forgot to mention that another plus for cardinals is that the blue and reds really stand out in a darker tank. I seems most water features are darker and bring out great colors in them.


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

Ok thanks for the fish input, i think im going to go with neon tetras and some cardinals. I hear they school nicely wich might be cool in the tank. Im building my rock barrier and the hiding places for the equipment today so more pics on that to come.
Few questions
1. What find of foam does eveyone use for their backdrops?
2. What moss should i grow in the tank? I really like riccia moss but I can seem to find it anywhere anymore =(


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

The yellow great stuff from the red can is the cheapest. You can use the black pond sealer but it's 8$ a can vs 3$


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

Here are some pictures of the rock wall i'm constructing for the water feature. Its going well so far, I'm using an aquarium silicon to hold the rocks together because I tried to use hotglue and it just kept falling apart. I want to get it around 6inches tall. 
Also in the picture is the small pump for the water fall and a small carbon filter for clarity. The pump for the waterfall has a red face flow adjustment and I've placed as quarter by it for size comparison. Its made by Hydor and it has a flow rate of 100 g/h. I still havent decided if I will use the filter or just do more water changes since I'll be having the tanks bottom drilled.

I have also decided that instead of incorporating the water fall into a rock structure i will put it up on the background i am making instead for a longer fall. Im making my background into three sections so that the middle section by the waterfall will be removable. This way I can hide my pumps tubing and power cords behind it but still be able to get to it if needed.

Pictures on the background construction coming this weekend.


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

Couple updates.
I've finished the rock wall for the water feature and now Im just waiting for the silicone to cure....so much fun.

I'm currently working on making the background. It seems a little messy to me though. Anyone know how to shape the foam better? Im using the yellow great stuff foam. Should I try to shape and smooth it while its still wet or should i trim it when it dry?


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## highvoltagerob (Apr 14, 2012)

definately wait til it dries. If you try when its wet you`ll have a huge mess. It sticks to things you didnt know it came in contact with!


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## djbn (May 17, 2012)

Do people normally shape the foam or just leave it as it comes out? If i shape it after it drys whats the best method? sandpaper? sharp knife?


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I usually make a slice with a razor blade and just peel it back... You can even use your fingernails and gouge it out.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

I use a serated knife slides through like butter. The more teeth the better, I use a blade with 32 per inch I think it is.
If you wait about a Half hour after it starts drying and it won't pick up when you touch it you can't push it down and squeeze the air out. It's a difficult thing to time you have to know when but if its done right it can't work and you can lower the size of the foam. I did it in 
my waterfall section so it wasn't really
Thick


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