# Gray Skin Blotches on Azureus



## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

So just recently I noticed that a gray spot had begun to develop on the very top of one of my Azureus' head. Upon seeing this, I also immediately found two splotches on the other Azureus, one on each hind leg (fib/tib) region, spanning the length of each leg portion. 

These discolorations are light/dark gray in coloration, non-symmetrical to each other, and are clearly not a part of a Sky-Blue Azureus' normal pattern. The frogs themselves do not sit in water as diagnosed by other conditions, nor have they lost their appetite one bit. They still creep about their enclosure as normal, and do not seem agitated or discomforted by these "blotches". 

Nevertheless, I would like to see if I could get a handle on this before it potentially becomes more harmful, or apparently painful. 

I know pictures will help, so I will try to get some up as soon as I am able.

Anybody heard of anything like this before? If so, what's the diagnosis and treatment(s)?

I appreciate any help you guys can provide.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

yikes!!!! sounds a bit like chytrid to me!!!! search for the thread "leuc with chytrid" by nish and see if it matches, then follow the treatments he did


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

The very same thing happened for me with my frogs. Sadly it was chytrid. Lost half of my collection as a result.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here's a link to that thread that was mentioned above. Good luck and keep us posted!

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/31507-leuc-chytrid.html


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Hmmm, not so sure. I've read up quite a bit on chytrid, and it seems to typically involve lethargy, obvious irritation, and loss of appetite. 

For anyone who is interested, I have consulted this site in particular-

How to Recognise Chytrid Fungus 

-and have found that almost none of the listed symptoms are apparent in my frogs. Most notably, it is said that most frogs will stop eating when infected with chytrid, and will also spend a majority of their time in water. Once again, the buffet line is hoppin', and the pool in my froggy hotel is vacant. 

I am going to keep searching, but in the meantime, thank you for your help, and don't abandon me yet! I'll keep you all posted and get around to those pictures eventually, and hopefully can serve as a reference for others in the future.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Those symptoms are really only relevent in the context that they are the symptoms that appear in the terminal stage of the infection... in other words as death approaches. Other symptoms occur early in the infection. 

I suggest http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/phtm/PHTM/frogs/papers/kriger-2007.pdf 
and I would really suggest being very hesitant on using thier treatment regimen... 

Ed


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i believe those symptoms COULD be a bacterial infection.

james


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

What are the tank temps? 
If at this stage you are unwilling to treat using Lamisil (I think you ought to try or get them to a vet asap as chytrid is of rapid onset), isolate the frogs and raise tank temps to 76 degrees if the species will tolerate it. If you see that the condition does not worsen, it may give you a clue as to whether it is chytrid. 
Chytrid is so hard to pin down sometimes.---the symptoms vary widely based on the immunity and conditions of your animals that you really can't afford to take any chances if you are fortunate enough to get what may be an early warning. Many folks just come home to tanks full of dead frogs when it strikes. Testing is advised, at the very least---or see a vet.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

All of the frogs that I had which passed from this nasty fungus all ate like pigs until the day they died. They never went in the water more than usual, never showed lethargy, etc. Just one day they died and soon more followed. I lost a total of 17 frogs before this mess was all over for me. 

Since treatment all remaining frogs have tested negative for the fungus 3 times. And I just sent out some recent swabs to make sure they are still healthy one year later after the whole nightmare.

If you plan to ever breed frogs and sell them to other people, please do the responsible thing and treat your frogs.


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Alright...

So, I have contacted Dr. Frye, and he promptly responded to my message. Here's his 2 cents: 

"This sounds like a somewhat common condition. Most likely your frogs have an infectious dermatitis (either bacterial or fungal.) I doubt it is Chytrid. I would strongly recommend treating the frogs with Silversulfadiazene and Baytril.
I would strongly disagree with putting this frog in pedialyte. The sugar solution will most likely just feed the infection like adding fuel to a fire.
I have heard similar stories from other froggers hundreds of times over the years. Most will recover with my recommended treatment.
I am adding information on the medications I recommended."

I had been advised by my breeder to try soaking them in pedialyte, which I was hesitant of simply because of the lack of diagnosis. 

Here's the dish...if I am to follow his advice, these treatments are expensive...Baytril is 24$ an ounce, and Silversulfadiazene 34$ and ounce... Not to mention shipping. This is the latest, still no decision on my part. Will probably consult the nearest exotic animal vet to have them looked at. Once again, thank you all for the advice, and I will keep you posted.


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Also, I wanted to say that I have read that study you have posted, Ed...very interesting. I can now see what everyone is saying about chytrid striking fast, and symptoms varying. I am not going to assume what this condition is or is not until i know more.

Earthfrog, the temperature in the tank is roughly 74-75 degrees, to answer your question.

Thankfully, there is an exotic vet just down the street from me, so I am going to visit in the morning so as to get a sound consultation. More to come tomorrow, hopefully I can have this nailed down ASAP.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

My male Azureus had the same thing suggested by Dr Frye.
Rather than stress him out, I decided to leave him alone to see what will happen
He was acting normal in every way.
In about 2 weeks it was completly gone.
I think I also read or heard somewhere that this is common in Azureus.

John


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

No kidding?

I have been wondering the same thing. I have gone through the motions before with African Clawed Frogs, trying to heal one infected with dropsy...tried everything suggested, and nothing helped. 

In the end it was a waste of time and money, especially for the poor little girl who was separated for the last year of her life from her friends in the "big tank". Granted, ACF's aren't nearly as costly as PDF's, but I still find them as entertaining as anything else.

At any rate, the amphibian specialist at the veterinary office near me isn't in until Friday, when I have booked an appointment. In the meantime, here are some pics of the "affliction":









There's that spot on the head I had mentioned...also, notice the lesions on the hind legs. 









This guy has more developed lesions on the hind legs, and also notice the dark ring forming on the back that is far too ominous...

Till further ado...


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

I would go with Dr. Frye's suggested treatment. While the medications are expensive you will have a ton left over for later. I keep Baytril, silversulfadiazene, panacur and metronidazole at hand all the time in case something pops up and I need to use any of the medications.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

zcasc said:


> I have been wondering the same thing. I have gone through the motions before with African Clawed Frogs, trying to heal one infected with dropsy...tried everything suggested, and nothing helped.


Which isn't surprising as "dropsy" is a symptom and not an actual disease. It is also called "bloat" (which again is the symptom and not the disease). You can treat the symptom to allow the frog to more easily regulate it's fluid balance by soaking the frog in amphibian ringer's solution (either isotonic or hypertonic depending on the severity of the symptom). 

The retention of fluids is caused by something that disrupts the frog's ability to regulate its fluid balance (osmotic potential). This can be caused by a number of issues including but not limited to liver failure, baterial infections, fungal infections, and/or poor water quality. Without knowing the actual cause behind the problem, then shotgun treatments are often ineffective. 

Ed


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

zcasc said:


> No kidding?
> 
> I have been wondering the same thing. I have gone through the motions before with African Clawed Frogs, trying to heal one infected with dropsy...tried everything suggested, and nothing helped.
> 
> ...


Your frogs have it alot worse than mine did.
Mine only had 1 small spot on it`s back and like I said it was gone in a few weeks.
Good luck in your treatment.
I hope they`ll be ok.

John


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

After seeing pics I can tell you this is nothing like what my frogs had on them. What they have is more pigmentation changes. What your guys have looks to be bacterial lesions. The most common cause for this is when you keep your substrate too wet, which I see it does looks a tad over saturated.

After you treat your frogs you will want to tear down your whole tank or you risk reinfection.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I also suggest using live moss in the future, replacing sphagnum moss every 3-4 months or rotating tanks to allow isopods and springtails to clean it in between inhabitants. 
I've noticed that almost every pic of a diseased frog that I've seen under this category (not just this thread) has old tank moss in the background...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Looks pretty wet in there. I`d think about a lamasil treatment as it`s pretty benign and the second pic the frog doesn`t look very good. A vet isn`t going to be able to test for chytrid for you, you`d have to send a swab in to a lab. If it is fungal dermatitis then lamasil AT may work. I`d do something though.


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Duly noted on the wetness level in the terrarium. 

It is a false bottom with a waterfall system built into the background, but I believe what has happened over time is that the substrate has compacted, and thus allowed the water table to be higher in comparison with the substrate. 

I am in the process of preparing a new aquarium to house them in after their check up, as the more reading I do leads me to believe that the water in the tank is providing the inclimate conditions for the frogs' skin.

False bottoms seem to work well, but I am feeling more positive about a drainage system for the future. I also want to can the waterfall display; cool-looking, but I am waiting for the day it breaks down and I have to dig that thing out of there--kinda like a kid in his bed at night waiting for monsters to come out of the closet. 

Thank you all, once again, for your advice. I greatly appreciate it, and your attitudes towards the hobby undoubtedly make it more bearable for a fairly new PDF keeper (like myself) to get along.


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

So just a little update...

I took the frogs to the vet on Friday, and was delighted to find out that the attending DVM was Paul Gibbons, who I later found out was awarded "Exotic Vet of the Year" award in 2009. His knowledge of amphibians was quite surprising and reassuring as well. 

He didn't want to rule out chytrid, so we sent some swabs in to be tested. I am awaiting the results of these tests, but for now, the frogs are quarantined and are being treated with a diluted Baytril solution for 1 week. 

As of yet, I have seen no such change in the symptoms, but hopefully time will tell.


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

A further update for anyone who is interested. 

I used the Baytril solution for 1 week as decided on the frogs, with little visible results. However, I hadn't expected that to occur in the first place, as my understanding of Baytril is that it is only antibacterial. As a bacterial infection seems more likely a secondary condition in my frogs, the Baytril was used more to combat any sort of "could be" effects. 

Anywho, I have been soaking the frogs daily for almost two weeks now in a dilute aquarium sea salt solution (approximately 10 grams sea salt to a liter of water) that appears to be working. The gray spots have diminished largely, especially the hind leg sores that are in constant contact with the solution when they are being soaked. 

The only spot that doesn't seem to be diminishing is the spot on top of one's head, that I try to attend to with a needleless syringe full of the solution. 

The sea salt solution is a natural antifungal, and relatively "safe" for the frogs in small, timed exposures (granted it is not iodized table salt). However, I do have silver sulfadiazene on hand to at least try as a topical if this treatment is not successful. 

What I do know for now is that the spots appear to be shrinking in size, without any negative symptoms from the frogs (appetite, activity, etc...)


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

What were the results of the tests?


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Sounds like some good news, thankfully.


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Oh yeah...my bad. Tests for chytrid came back negative.

It may sound bad to some, but I declined other tests simply because of the absurd amount of money it would have cost me. Simply doing one chytrid swab, bringing in the two frogs, and getting the Baytril cost me 340$...

...I'm still trying to recover from that one. With the other test the vet was trying to push on me, the bill would have topped the high end of 500$. Unfortunately, paramedic school has severely cut my work hours quite short, and that kind of money don't come quick.


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## MSteele (Jun 30, 2004)

looks like i got the same thing on my frog. i have kept many frogs for almost 10yrs and never had this problem before and of course it happens to my favorite (breeding ) frog. good thing i have 2 females in my group incase i have a death. i have contacted Dr. Frye and hope i can get meds soon. I cant see how it would be Cytrid... im guessing it is a fungus infection.. my females do roll around with each other from time to time and i guess thisone got a cut or scratch and know it is infected from humidity in the tank.. anyway hear are some pictures... it looks like his is what the Azureus in the earlier post had


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Sorry to hear.

I was able to pin down some generic brand silver sulfadiazene on Amazon for $9...heck of a lot better than over $40 with shipping...baytril you will need a vet for, unfortunately. 

I also do recommend the sea salt bath technique that I had discussed earlier. I saw the most noticable results after that. Good luck


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## MSteele (Jun 30, 2004)

i ordered all the meds from Dr Frye and they should be hear in a day or so - hope that works. also tring to keep the frog in a dryer tank to slow the infection... Sea Salt Bath? what did you do


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

I picked up a small bag of aquarium sea salt from a pet store, and mixed 10 grams of the salt with 1 liter of water. I placed both frogs in the solution (about half a frog deep in a tupperware dish) for 30 minutes-1 hour for about 2 weeks, making sure to use an eye dropper to roll some down their backs as well. 

The source I picked up on this from recommends anywhere from 10-25 grams of aquarium salt per liter; I stuck with a more diluted solution, as we are obviously dealing with some tiny beasts here. The second week I added just a touch more salt to the solution, as I hadn't noted any adverse affects during the first week.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

zcasc said:


> .baytril you will need a vet for, unfortunately.


legally yes you do need a vet..... however there are a number of Chinese manufacturers that supply drugs like baytril (Enrofloxacin) which they will happily ship to your door. seizures are quite rare. id suggest looking for it by the CAS# (93106-60-6).

james


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Gotta love international trading. 

I searched for Baytril, also. However, I was only able to find it in tablet form (for dogs and cats). 

Thanks for the tip. Hope others find it useful also.


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Oh and by the way, I never mentioned...

One of the frogs (actually, the terrible-looking one that had the huge lesion on its back and legs) has made a full recovery (at least aesthetically).

I now have it housed in a separate enclosure. The "spot-headed" tinc has had all lesions disappear except for the lone spot, which has now begun to fade away since I began the application of the silver sulfadiazine. 

We'll see whether this thing is finally under control. The re-appearance of a spot after the halting of treatment will cause some great frustration, needless to say.


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