# concrete acrylic fortifier and sealer



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Anybody use this? I believe Brent Brock used it when he made artificial treetrunks.
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/Co ... tifier.asp

I have read online that quikrete concrete sealer has been used to seal fish ponds. However, it does contain propylene glycol.
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/ConcreteSealer.asp


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I'm not sure but I think that Brent used Ace brand fortifier. I used this stuff (the Quickcrete acrylic fortifier) on my latest tree trunks and it seems to do fine but there are others that have used it with no problems. I seem to remember reading that Clayton (Catfur) has used this and had no problems, but hopefully some more will chime in here too. I have not seen or anything about the second.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

when i read Brent's information about the treetrunks, he tended to interchange between fortifier and bonding adhesive. Considering they're two different things, I am unsure if the fortifier was even used. I am well aware of the bonding adhesive by ACE and quikrete, but nobody (except you) has said anything about the fortifier.

What is the fortifier used for? Coating?

I was thinking about sealing flevopol mixture with acrylic fortifier, but the product says not to mix the two. (except I think that has to do with the uncured product)


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

What exactly are you wanting to do?

If you really feel you need to "seal" the flevopol, I'd just use something else.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I would like to seal the flevopol because of the potential for it to rehydrate and fall apart.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

The acrylic concrete fortifier leaves a nice solid non permeable layer on the surface and you shouldn't need to use a sealer on top of that. I will try to get a close up pic of my trunk so you can see the sealing ability, but you can look at the trunk journal here http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24123 . While Brent does say acrylic concrete fortifier and bonder, I don't think he means that as 2 products, or at least that is not the impression I got when I read this and spoke with him about it. The fortifier dries crystal clear and rock hard, but there is a slight gloss to it which could be undesireable for you application. I actually am planning to finish the viv that this trunk is going to go in using a pseudo flevapol method using this stuff. I really like the application and think it opens up a while new world of construction opportunities to us. I can't comment on the sealer like I said, but in all honesty after using the fortifier and seeing how it seals, you shouldn't really need the sealer as long as you lay on a good coat of the fortifier. I have to go to class in a few but when I get home I will work on getting some more info up on this thread including the recipe I plan on using for the background.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

sbreland said:


> While Brent does say acrylic concrete fortifier and bonder, I don't think he means that as 2 products, or at least that is not the impression I got when I read this and spoke with him about it.


That's correct. The stuff I used was labeled as "bonder and fortifier" and it was Ace brand. I've used a few different brands and they all seem about the same but I don't think I've ever used Quickrete brand. However, I don't think I would get too shaken up by the propylene glycol. That happens to be a moisturizing ingredient in the contact lens solution I've started using and my eyes have never been so comfortable. The point being that if it is FDA approved for use in human eyes, it probably doesn't pose a risk to frogs. I'm not sure but I think it is also used as a food additive.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The only fault I've found to the Quickrete brand is that it's thinner than the Ace brand. I've not used it, but I would omit the water in the recipie we add when we use the Ace brand stuff. Trying it is on my ever long list of things to do.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

defaced said:


> The only fault I've found to the Quickrete brand is that it's thinner than the Ace brand. I've not used it, but I would omit the water in the recipie we add when we use the Ace brand stuff. Trying it is on my ever long list of things to do.


I actually think this may be the main thing that separates "bonders" from "fortifiers". Stuff that I've used that is just labeled fortifier is like milk. But when I've used bonder on concrete projects, it is like elmers glue. But I think all of the bottles of bonder I've used had directions for using it as a fortifier as well.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

So, is the ACE concrete bonder and fortifier the same thing as Quikrete's concrete acrylic fortifier?

And, the ACE concrete primer (the flevopol thing) is the same as Quikrete bonding adhesive?

I like how Quikrete gives you the MSDS when you must request it from ACE on various sites.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

defaced said:


> The only fault I've found to the Quickrete brand is that it's thinner than the Ace brand. I've not used it, but I would omit the water in the recipie we add when we use the Ace brand stuff. Trying it is on my ever long list of things to do.


That is exactly the reason I like the Quikcrete stuff for the application I used it in. Like Brent said, the consistency is just like milk, and looks exactly the same too. When trying to "paint" it on my tree stump. it worked like a charm straight out of the bottle, no diluting. I tried to use it of making vines, but that was a pathetic attempt and realized that a thicker fortifier was needed, so ACE would be the ticket there. If you are doing the flevapol method, I would say that the ACE would probably be better but thin it down enough to make it "paintable", but not thin like the Quikcrete. The Quickcrete stuff would probably work, but it would be more difficult than just using the thicker stuff


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm sorry for being so repetitious but I'm not entirely understanding all these chemicals just yet...


I went to home depot today and bought 60 lb. Ready-To-Use Concrete Mix-1030006 at The Home Depot

As far as I understand that is just plain old generic concrete mix (and thats what I want).

From this point, it seems....

CLASSIC WAY: Mix with water, put on several layers, and then either seal it with an epoxy resin ro just vinegar-bath it for several weeks.

NEW WAY: Skip the water, use the "acrylic fortifier" right away and you are good to go? No vinegar bath or further epoxy is needed... Is this right?


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

No. Not at all. Most cement fortifiers are a PVA polymer or copolymer that is designed to help improve the adhesion between existing concrete and a newer batch ontop. For our purposes it works to help seal up the pores in the cement/grout/concrete to reduce the calcium hydroxide (CaOH) from moving out into the vivarium water. However, it does not do this 100% by any means and from my data, shows it actually doesn't help if you are water curing it. (I know contrary to popular belief.)

I've done EXTENSIVE work on this issue. (Well over 100+ formulations and tests I've been doing for about a year now.) To give an example of the change you will see:

Ordinary Portland Cement (OPC) casted into a small rock mold then placed into distilled water of a volume exactly 2X the rock volume yields a pH of 10-12 depending on fillers used, water content, etc. The same thing done using polymer modified portland cement, yields a pH of 10-11. The polymer helps and is better than nothing but it does not solve the issue. Nor does it solve the issue any faster, but rather draws out the length of time the curing takes place. This was observed by doing daily water changes of various polymer-modified cement formulations and the results showed that it took longer to attain pH neutrality due to the calcium hydroxide leaching out more slowly. The less porous polymer-free formulations actually cured faster, but not by much. However the polymer modified formulations were MUCH stronger and had better flexural strength and adhesion, which when used in thin layers like we use it for making fake rocks, is helpful.

So basically, in a nutshell it is not a quick-fix for the pH neutralization issue. You still need to cure it just like you would without adding it. Also when you DO cure it, do not use vinegar. This not only eats away into the cement weakening the structure, but it also will react with the polymer you added. Most polymers used for this purpose are broken down/dissolved by vinegar due to the chemical structure of the polymer itself.

Best bet it to soak it, and let it dry, soak it, let it dry. Back and forth. And/OR soak it, seal it up in the tank with plastic wrap, and drop some chunks of dry ice into a cup of water. This will release CO2 which will react with the pore water to help facilitate the CaOH conversion to CaCO3. This will speed it up, but it is still going to take weeks. 

Sorry to say, but the only options out there are to cure it, (weeks-months) or cover it in EPOXY not polyester resin (expensive and makes it shiny). Everyone has been looking for a quick fix, myself especially, but so far there isn't one.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

VivariumWorks said:


> No. Not at all. Most cement fortifiers are a PVA polymer or copolymer that is designed to help improve the adhesion between existing concrete and a newer batch ontop. For our purposes it works to help seal up the pores in the cement/grout/concrete to reduce the calcium hydroxide (CaOH) from moving out into the vivarium water. However, it does not do this 100% by any means and from my data, shows it actually doesn't help if you are water curing it. (I know contrary to popular belief.)
> 
> I've done EXTENSIVE work on this issue. (Well over 100+ formulations and tests I've been doing for about a year now.) To give an example of the change you will see:
> 
> ...


Thanks that was what I originally thought, but I was unaware CaOH was the particular problem agent. Is this the only thing that leeches? I realize that may be a dumb question ^^

when I said vinegar-bath, I actually meant to spray it down with vinegar, then to soak it in water (thats what I thought everyone was doing) but I guess I will jsut skip the vinegar.

My misting water is always fresh (at least in this build) and my waterfall water is not used for misting, so the pH issue should be minimal anyway...but I'm not comfortable until I understand at least some of the science behidn it


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

VivariumWorks said:


> No. Not at all. Most cement fortifiers are a PVA polymer or copolymer that is designed to help improve the adhesion between existing concrete and a newer batch ontop. For our purposes it works to help seal up the pores in the cement/grout/concrete to reduce the calcium hydroxide (CaOH) from moving out into the vivarium water. However, it does not do this 100% by any means and from my data, shows it actually doesn't help if you are water curing it. (I know contrary to popular belief.)
> 
> I've done EXTENSIVE work on this issue. (Well over 100+ formulations and tests I've been doing for about a year now.) To give an example of the change you will see:
> 
> ...




My information is just from personal experience but, by no way scientific. But, have you tried using just cement and acrylic fortifier? No water.

From my experience it did help the curing. In a past build I used that combination (fast drying quickcrete cement and quickcrete acrylic fortifier) after dry I soaked it for only about a week in plain tap water, changing the water only twice. And started using it. (im very impatient sometimes)

We have high pH tap water here 8.2 I've only seen an increase of .2 - .4 while using it in aquarium use totally submerged. My experience has been that it does aid in avoiding the pH problems.


So for my next build I'm planning on doing it similarly but adding a layer or two of acrylic sealer to top it off. 

Any suggestions? Comments?
Comments?


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

When everyone talks about cement, you’re referring to the powder and not concrete or mortar which contains an aggregate, rite? I molded a rock from tile grout and it turned out well but seemed fragile when compared to an epoxy rock. Are grout and cemant interchangable as far as the end result, or are there advantages to one over the other?

Brian


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

The calcium hydroxide is not the only thing that leaches but it is the primary concern. You get all kinds of other things leaching depending on the quality of the cement but the CaOH is what shoots up the pH. A very small amount of CaOH makes a big difference pH wise. It is also known as lime or kalkwasser in saltwater reefing. 

Yes I've tried that variation before. Along with many many many more. The reason you have saw a low pH jump was due to the bicarbonate in your water. Most tap water contains a pretty high bicarbonate level. Especially here with the hard water of San Antonio. Look up your local tap water's levels online and you'll likely find its pretty high. What this bicarbonate does is act as a buffer for CaOH as it reacts with the CaOH to form calcium carbonate and water. (Same reaction as adding the Co2 by means of the dry ice.) However, once the initial levels of bicarbonate in your water are eaten up by the leaching CaOH, you'll notice the water's pH will increase as the buffer is no longer there.

Now for aquarium uses, depending on what other pH buffers you use, the pH can be managed more easily than a vivarium/terrarium. For one thing the adage "the solution to pollution is dilution" works here. The rocks you used in your aquariums were at what dilution ratio? I'm using a 2 water:1 rock by volume. MUCH higher than most people use in their aquarium settings and am using non-buffered distilled water. HOWEVER, this is the best way to measure (inexpensively at least) CaOH output. The reason for this is that for vivarium use, we have VERY low volumes of water with high surface areas of cement contact and moderate levels of cement. This becomes a problem as the lower the water volume used, the faster the pH jumps up. This becomes an issue in that the highly alkaline water drips from the background into the soil and/or waterbody and raises the pH well above acceptable levels for plants, frogs, and especially mosses. The rate at which this increase is seen is dependent on:
Buffers in the water
Water volume
Porosity of cement matrix
Chemical make-up of the cement used
How well cured the cement is before usage
Starting water pH (misting water pH)

One of the reason's I've been working on this is due to an incident that happened with my small business about 3 years ago. I designed a large rock wall and cage( 4'x2'x4' ) for a client. It was an open-air mesh cage with a waterfall background and bottom made from foam, covered in quickcrete, and coated in epoxy to make it waterproof and "seal" it. The entire system had a total water volume of about 8 gallons, including the massive canister filter that filtered the system and powered the waterfall. The issue was that the client, despite being told over and over, refused to change the water of the system and just added water. Between the 8.4 pH of San Antonio and the uncured cement slowly working it's way into the water, the pH of the system raised through the roof. This caused the animal to stop drinking from the waterfall because it tasted bad and died of dehydration. Never mind the fact that I told them that they needed a misting system from the very start AND it was one of the hottest recorded years in SA and the AC was on full blast cutting the room's humidity to near zero. But whatever, it way MY fault. So I've been working on finding a way to deal with this and find a workaround ever since. I don't like the lack of durability or the look of the latex paint "drylock" method personally. Some guys really like it, but for anything other than darts it will get ripped up too fast and I don't like the look compared to a good cement/grout design.

Cement, grout, mortar is all made of the same thing. The differences are in the different fillers (sand, aggregate, colorants), type of cement used, and chemical modifiers used. The main thing to keep in mind with all grout and cement is that it is made up of 2 main chemicals. Calcium disilicate (C2S) and calcium trisilicate (C3S). These undergo a "hydration" reaction when mixed with water forming our cement. The different types(type I, II, III etc...) of cement are determined based on the different amount of the C2S and C3S and various chemical modifiers present. The thing to keep in mind is that in most cements, the C2S concentration is pretty high, even in the fast setting kind where the C2S is tried to be kept low. This is important because C2S hydrates very very slowly compared to C3S. C3S is done FAST, but the C2S takes much longer. Typically 28+ days if in the proper conditions, otherwise it continues to hydrate forever. As it hydrates it releases CaOH. So even though you cured the cement at day 1, 2, 3, 4... it doesn't matter because at day 28 it will still be generating CaOH. So water changes will NEED to be made. Now if you cut off the CaOH's way to move out from the cement, like the chemical modifiers do or layering in epoxy or other sealants, it still remains and moves out, but much more slowly. But as was seen in the case above, it can still cause issues if water changes are not done. 

Your best bet is to cure it properly from the beginning. Take the time and do it right. Shortcuts can be done but in most cases you run the risk of running the pH too high because you thought you "took care of it". Another issue is the total dissolved solids or TDS can become pretty high too, even when the pH is within "acceptable" ranges. This can cause issues with the plant's ability to absorb water/nutrients. And all this isn't even touching the fact that all mosses and many of the tropical plants we use are calcifuge plants. This means they can't stand high pH (above about an 8) and in mosses case, excess calcium ions are capable of disrupting it's ability to osmoregulate itself and kills it. (The main reason why you never find moss growing on raw limestone. You'll find it on layers of algae or soil ontop of limestone, but not directly on it.)

Hope this helps. I know its not what people want to hear but the truth is, if you go cheap and use the cement method, you need to take the time to do it right. ESPECIALLY if you plan to use large volumes of DIY rock for saltwater reef tanks.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

So, is the best way to test that it's cured a ph test? Also, say you cure it for a month by constantly wetting, is there a buffer that's safe to add to misting water to be "extra sure" you're not raising the ph too high.

I'm planning on making a cement background and putting it in an empty viv with a mister hooked up for about a month before planting and moving in inhabitants... does that sound like a reasonable plan?


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

As for buffers, there are all kinds of stuff, but the issue is that they will leave deposits on your leaves, background, etc. Could also clog your mister heads.

Turning the mister system on often wouldn't be a bad idea. A good wet,dry,wet, dry, cycle will help. This will allow air to fill into the gaps between wet cycles to allow Co2 to get into it help with the curing. If you want, one option is you could use a VERY dilute amount of food grade citric acid to your misting water while you are curing the background. The citric acid will help and if isn't used in high concentrations it won't break down the background like spraying with vinegar will. Also it shouldn't interfere with the polymers should you decide to use it. The other thing is that each molecule of citric acid reacts with 3 molecules of CaOH while vinegar (acetic acid) reacts with only one. So you get more bang for your buck this way. Just use really small amounts. A little goes a long way. No worries about toxicity, you eat the stuff in volume everyday. Just give everything a good soak when you are done.

Testing the water's pH is really the best way to tell, but it can be tricky, especially when using a background. But a month should be enough time, especially if you wet/dry cycle it. Good luck!


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

Where do you find just citric acid? Or (i know silly idea) do I just dilute some OJ and go to town?

Sent from my incredible...mind


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

suztor said:


> Where do you find just citric acid? Or (i know silly idea) do I just dilute some OJ and go to town?
> 
> Sent from my incredible...mind


You can order it in bulk from a number of places including citric acid crystals or you can get smaller amounts in the store where they sell canning supplies usually under the name of Fruit Fresh or something similar. 

Ed


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

I got my batch from some dealer on Amazon.


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