# Imitator vs. Variabilis



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Split from http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=145618 - rozdaboff

so are these inibico imitator or variablis?














































striped imitator(yellow imitators)


















they are a bit smaller then the striped imitators i recieved.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Very nice photos...plus I'm always intrigued as to how certain frogs can either be shy or bold for individual hobbyists.

Bill


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

You know, Aaron posed a kind of interesting question... how do you tell the difference between variabilis and imitator? Many of these pics look so similar to imitators and the fact that standard imitators imitate variabilis, I could see this being a small issue. Now I realize that the two should be kept separate so there shouldn't be a problem, but just a curiousity question I thought I would pose.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Variabilis have 1 nose spot, imitator have 2. I believe there is something with the toes as well that I can't remember...


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

if you put a variabilis and in imi side by side they are actually really easy to distinguish in my opinion. just like new river and azurues look similar in pictures but you can easily tell them apart in person. just kinda hard to describe. imi's tend to have a solid yellowish back while varis i see tend to start changing to that greenish/blueish color about 3/4 of the way back. the spotting also looks different in person to me


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Ahhh, I see. Guess I had just never really heard what teh differences are, but they sound like great frogs


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

> imi's tend to have a solid yellowish back while varis i see tend to start changing to that greenish/blueish color about 3/4 of the way back. the spotting also looks different in person to me



Unless you have imi's from Kristen! :wink: Most of my offspring do not have solid yellow backs, instead they have a yellow head, greenish body and blue, sometimes green legs.










This pic is blurry, but shows the color









I think in person, variabilis do look different and are easier to distinguish from imitator. Photos most of the time do not do frog colors justice...and it also depends on what line, etc. There is a photo of one variabilis, in particular, from the wild that looks nothing like an imitator.

Kristen


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Don't variabilis also have only a single spot on the nose whereas imis have 2?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> Don't variabilis also have only a single spot on the nose whereas imis have 2?


That's what I thought...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

problem is that my standard imitator and the striped imitator i have both have goldish bellies from front to back and the spotted have blue bellies w/ a yellow chin, like the variablis. they also have a single spot over the nose and 2 small dots in the front of the nose just above the lips, looking like 2 nostrils. so which is it, are the 2 small dots considered the nose spots or the one spot over the nose to decide more like imitator or variablis. if this is what were using to identify it could be very confusing. the standard pair of imitators and the striped imitators also have a more muddy pattern w/ dashes and dots in between the heavy spotting. the variablis have none of the muddying, just spots. the spotted imitators are inbetween those 2. the spotted form is also smaller than the striped. they almost look like an intermediate morph.
i was assured that all the animals in the pics are the same morph though, or they are found amongst each other in the wild.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

From what I've seen, variabilis all have that one very prominant single spot on the top part of the nose and the two smaller black spots on the front of the nose resembling a mustache. 

Imitator have the two seperate spots that are on the top and front of the nose.

Aaron, I'm confused...are you not sure what you have from ******? Did you get variabilis, yellow imitator or both?

Kristen


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I would assume the call is different as well?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i didnt mention any names!i dont want to use an emoticon, i`m not angry i simply did not mention any names. 
i recieved 4 imitators(yellow) through someone from inibico and wondered why they looked so different. w/ 2 of each"morph i thought" i wouldnt have much of a chance of pairing anything up. then i saw pics of the variablis here and thought they looked just like 2 of the yellow imitator i recieved(spotted ones).
after further examination of the underbellies of all my imitator, pics here of the variablis and the looks of the 2 spotteds i figured i`d post pics to see what people thought. also the spotteds are out all the time while the striped hide all the time in the same viv. after hearing how outgoing the inibico variablis are i thought maybe a mistake might have been made. after all the panama frogs dont come in marked. i dont want to go down as hybridizing. i conferred a while back w/ the person i purchased them from extensivlely to the point of being a jerk(i think) and getting a reply secondhand from shultz that they were found amongst each other and the spotted and striped imitator were both the yellow imitator from inibico. 
i dont know anything, i just breed what people send and i know that has got people in trouble in the past and i dont want to stake my reputation on other peoples decisions. i`d rather get a general consensus as to whether i should breed the spotteds to the stripes, if i get a pair between morphs, since they look so different in size and patterning. i`m hoping the spotteds turn out to be a pair. i`d still like to know though considering if they are variablis there offspring could be considered imitators and mixed. people make mistakes and ive never seen variblis in person. i`m only going by these 2 frogs compared to the descriptions ive read here and they do have the 1 spot over the nose and 2 small nostril spots. are varablis smaller than imitator?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Yeah Antone, the calls are very different. But that only works with males :lol:


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

frogfarm said:


> are varablis smaller than imitator?


My INIBICO variabilis are the same, if not a tad larger than my Imitators. 

To see the frogs in person, they are distinctly different. I think you'll have a better idea when you see some in person Aaron - either you'll know right away no - or it will even draw more questions out.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

the spotteds came in smaller than the striped. i dont know if they were 2 different ages or not and i cant remember how long ive had them(if they are close to adult or not). the 2 striped may have been females and the spotteds males. there is a size difference there.
i`m pretty sure they are adult size though.
kristin,
could you tell they were imitators or not. the description you gave for the variablis(one dot and 2 small dots)at the same time i was posting sounded just like the spotteds i was describing and therefore the trouble i was having.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I agree with NCSUdart.

Variabilis blend the blue into the body a 1/3rd the way up the hindquarters, and have the one nose spot.
The call is different also.

S

Aaron, those frogs you posted have a single nose spot, yes?? hard to tell from the scale of the picture. Can you provide a more close up? I will say those first few shots look like variabilis....

S


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

Yeah, I thought some of those pic's of Aaron's looked like variabilis, too. What is why I was wondering what they came in as. However, it is hard to tell from the pic's since they are from pretty far away.

Kristen


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i will try and get better pics but that darn new camera you had me buy is a pain in the ars. just joking!!
i already spent a bunch of time w/ them this morning and i`m behind in feeding and cleaning. oh i need a vaca. 
i will get better pics later tonite if i finish my chores or early tomorrow. thanks for the input!!
i really wish i had more time. i`m working on getting descriptions and pics of all my breeders and their offspring, distinguishing characteristics between closely related morphs and the whole 9 yards up on my site. these just threw another super blue/ turquoise and bronze section into the mix.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Aaron this is a Variabilis, take pics of the other one's backs and it will be easier to tell you what they are, but i think they are all the same...


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I agree....

S


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

there are pics of both frogs in the string of pics. the one on my hand is the same as on the ground. the 2 pics on the pothos leaf are the other spotted.
IF this is true maybe someone should start a thread to make sure the imitators and variablis are correctly id`d from the inibico shipments so this doesnt happen to anyone else. i would like to see what other imitators and variablis from the inibico shipments look like before i decide if this was a mistake or if there are other yellow imitators which may be variablis look alikes?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ha, i guess that`s why imitators got there name. they ARE variablis look alikes, sometimes i just slay myself i tell ya.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Can anyone dispute the one nose spot = variabilis, 2 = imitator ??? exceptions???

S

oh, and Aaron, you are doing great with that new camera   keep it up :wink:


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

My imitator pair have thrown froglets with a single "nose spot" on the dorsal tip of "nose" - with the two "moustache" spots on the rostral end of the "nose".










The patterning is not the exact same, the "moustache" spots are a bit larger, but don't quite extend onto the dorsal surface of the "nose". So it seems that 2=imitator is not a rule.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

Wow, this could get sticky...Roz, do you have a pic of some of those froglets showing the dorsal view? Can you see the front nose spots (not the single top one) from the top view? Yes, the "mustache" spots are a bit bigger and a bit higher, but they certainly show that it could be a big fat grey area. 

It's looking like the only way to be certain is to be certain of where/who they came from.

Kristen


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I don't have a dorsal pic of that froglet - and I don't have it any longer. I will check the froglets I do have to see what I can take a picture of.

That being said - I still feel that variabilis are readily distinguishable from Imitators when you have seen both of them side by side. As someone else already said - the differences don't come out well in pictures, but they are there.

After closer inspection of my frogs, my Varis are larger than my imis. They are "longer" and less "stout" than Imis. Ventral coloration is also different - the throat area of Varis is more yellow and has fewer spots on the entire ventral region than Imis.

IMO - the first two pics of the frogs in question that Aaron posted are Imitator, not Variabilis.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

rozdaboff said:


> IMO - the first two pics of the frogs in question that Aaron posted are Imitator, not Variabilis.


Oz, I don't want to put you on the spot, but what are your thoughts on the frog pictured on his hand? That is a different frog than the one pictured on the pothos leaves.

Kristen


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

pics of the underside of frogs in question.

















oz, is that a variablis in your avatar?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Well gee - post something to make me go eat my words why don't you.

Given that ventral coloration and pattern - that looks more like a variabilis to me.

Hopefully splitting this topic and moving it to Advanced will get more opinions.

Any guesses on sexes yet Aaron? That frog looks female to me - but it could still be young. Any chance the other is a male?

Also, does anyone know if Imi/Variabilis hybridization would even be possible?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Imi/Variabilis hybridization theoretically ought to be possible since they are closely related, but there ought to be some barrier to the act, since they are sympatric and would hybridize in the wild if something didn't stop them.

Aaron's frogs look like variabilis to me, btw.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

well it hasnt happened yet, thank god.
i knew i wasnt crazy.
btw, sorry, didnt mean to hijack the other thread, just thought it was pertinent.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

no idea on the sexes yet. is variabilis call louder or softer. i`ll seperate them out tomorrow and start listening.
now i`ll need to try and find variablis to add to the group. one lone inibico imitator(the 3rd is definetley an imitator, i think) will do me no good. anyone want to trade a variabilis for an imitator? ya right.


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Aaron,

The variabilis call is very soft, it is actually a very faint buzzing sound. Very different then any of the imi group frogs. There is no mistaking that call. 

As far as vari vs. imi, I think the two have a slightly different body shape. I think the varis look more like vents in body shape. It is very subtle though. I think that last pic you posted looks like a vari to me, espically with that belly shot.

Luke


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

so, is it the single dot over the nose, visible from the overview pic, you are using to id whether or not it`s variabilis or is it the moustache dots, visible from a face on pic that should have 1 dot?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

now i`m just confused.
this is the "striped" imitator of the group. the one i thought was an imitator. it does have the fused nose spot though.



























does anyone have any other inibico imitators for me to compare pics w/?
oh, and this is a male. his call is very soft but it`s also double thick glass on the 10g he`s in. it`s softer then lamasi and intermedius. i`ll have to spray my imitators to compare.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

well, the person i got them from says it appears that they were variabilis, but if the call is that different, the striped one is not variabilis.
it appears that we may not be able to tell them apart from looks.
i guess i just dont know what i`m talking about.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

The striped one doesn't look like a variabilis (one with the fused double nose spot) to me. One of the other things I look for in imitator vs. variabilis (at least the morphs we have available) is that in variabilis, the dorsum looks more like black spots on a green to yellow background, whereas in imitator it looks like a web of green and yellow on a back background.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Catfur said:


> The striped one doesn't look like a variabilis (one with the fused double nose spot) to me. One of the other things I look for in imitator vs. variabilis (at least the morphs we have available) is that in variabilis, *the dorsum looks more like black spots on a green to yellow background, whereas in imitator it looks like a web of green and yellow on a back background.*


Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like the same thing to me, or at least I think it would look the same to me.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

allrighty then. as i was feeding the 2 variabilis i heard a "buzz" coming from the tank. i didnt see anyone call(they were out of view) but i spent 2 hours standing there listening and i havent heard it again. i know i heard a buzz
i`m now back to the idea the 2 ARE variabilis and the one i saw calling IS an imitator. it`ll take some more observation to actually SEE the variabilis call. 
this is just too much of a pain in the ars for what it`s worth. 
i was sure they were all the same when i saw the underside of the imitator and heard him call.


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