# Rotate melanogaster feedings?



## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

I just got some Turkish gliders for the first time out of curiosity, and between those and a handful of fungus gnats, the frogs are really getting their exercise. All three are feeding eagerly (as always) and jumping around all day, but my alpha female seems to like them the best. I'm seeing her chase them into places I've never seen her go before.

I'm wondering whether it would be best to rotate the gliders and the regular flightless, or if it doesn't matter. I know they're both melanogaster, but I'm curious whether they're different enough to constitute variety in the frogs' diet.

(Don't worry, the two would mix only in the viv, not in the cultures! I have the two kinds separated by a drawer of springtails, and I always make sure there's nothing walking around before I dump the flies in a new culture. Happily, I learned my lesson on the forums and not from experience.)


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm curious as well.....and especially wonder whether they "taste" different...what kind of frogs are you feeding???


----------



## SDK (Aug 11, 2014)

ZenMonkey said:


> I'm wondering whether it would be best to rotate the gliders and the regular flightless, or if it doesn't matter. I know they're both melanogaster, but I'm curious whether they're different enough to constitute variety in the frogs' diet.


I would say yes to mixing it up. Even if the nutritional profiles are the same the behavioral differences will add a level of mental enrichment to the captive environment.

Some of your frogs may also be more adept at catching the gliders than others. Also, if it takes them longer to catch the gliders, there will be theoretically less vitamin powder on them.

Rotating with flightless flies will help ensure that they are all getting enough to eat, and getting sufficient benefit from your dusting routine...

Just my 2 cents. I am a big advocate for providing captive animals with as much exercise and variety as possible...


----------



## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

What about other food sources as well? I also culture bean beetles and I just ordered some pea aphids yesterday that should arrive today


----------



## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

Oh and springs and isos of course too


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

You need to be careful about mixing different kinds of flies, in some case you might get fliers. I think you're aware of this, but, if even one pair of flies lays eggs someplace, you might end up with fliers in a Viv for a while. Not the end of the world, until you open the door.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> You need to be careful about mixing different kinds of flies, in some case you might get fliers. I think you're aware of this, but, if even one pair of flies lays eggs someplace, you might end up with fliers in a Viv for a while. Not the end of the world, until you open the door.


yeaaa this is why I only keep 2 very different types of flies. Wingless melanos and flightless hydei... every once in a while I toss a banana in when I feed heavily (usually before a long weekend away or something) and I am not interested in risking 2 types of flies hitting that banana hard and getting freaky and then having fliers everywhere. It's already risky enough during the summer with elevated temps in the tank potentially causing a mutation back to fliers... don't need to be adding additional risk to it IMO


----------



## xIslanderx (Dec 8, 2012)

carola1155 said:


> yeaaa this is why I only keep 2 very different types of flies. Wingless melanos and flightless hydei... every once in a while I toss a banana in when I feed heavily (usually before a long weekend away or something) and I am not interested in risking 2 types of flies hitting that banana hard and getting freaky and then having fliers everywhere. It's already risky enough during the summer with elevated temps in the tank potentially causing a mutation back to fliers... don't need to be adding additional risk to it IMO


Tom, I did not realize an increase in temp can possibly cause the FF to revert to flying again... have any link for folks to read up on this? (this has always been a fear in the back of my mind!)


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Now that I dug for an actual source... I found this post by Ed:



Ed said:


> If you are raising one of the gliders, if the cultures get warm enough flying ones can result. This is not a permanent change to the genome of the fly but a change in the structure of the coded protiens due to the temperature.
> 
> I had several cultures of golden delicious revert to flying on me when they got too warm.. (all golden flying flies... I didn't notice and popped the culture open in the kitchen and got a cloud of flies in my face...)
> 
> ...


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/42499-melas-wings.html#post375908

so, it may not be in all varieties... but there is at least some proof of it somewhere.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

are there flightless hydei???


----------



## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

I actually had that happen to me recently. Some very small flyers got in my tank going after the banana. Took a week or so of just not leaving any fruit or bug burger in the tank but it I haven't seen em in a dew days so I think they're gone.


----------



## xIslanderx (Dec 8, 2012)

Thanks Tom! Good to know.



carola1155 said:


> Now that I dug for an actual source... I found this post by Ed:
> 
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/42499-melas-wings.html#post375908
> ...


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

zimmerj said:


> I actually had that happen to me recently. Some very small flyers got in my tank going after the banana. Took a week or so of just not leaving any fruit or bug burger in the tank but it I haven't seen em in a dew days so I think they're gone.



If you are talking about the really small black flies then they were likely fungus gnats. 



xIslanderx said:


> Thanks Tom! Good to know.



No prob, but you should be thanking Ed... He's responsible for most things I know! Haha


----------



## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

Sorry for being so late to reply. Lots of useful info here, thanks!



Judy S said:


> what kind of frogs are you feeding???


An auratus trio.



SDK said:


> Some of your frogs may also be more adept at catching the gliders than others. Also, if it takes them longer to catch the gliders, there will be theoretically less vitamin powder on them.
> 
> ....I am a big advocate for providing captive animals with as much exercise and variety as possible...


SDK, I think we're on the same wavelength here. I've done enrichment for much larger animals -- big cats, chimps -- and I absolutely agree the same should be done for the frogs. That's exactly why I finally got the gliders. After making a new and much more interesting viv for the frogs, I was thinking "I wish there were something else I could do to mix it up for them." And they've been constantly going after the fungus gnats so... 

And your points about the frogs' abilities plus the powder issue are very well taken. Definitely my alpha female is the champion huntress and she seems to be "enjoying" them (or whatever the non-anthropomorphic version is) the most. I've seen her chasing them in areas where I've never even seen her go before.



ZookeeperDoug said:


> if even one pair of flies lays eggs someplace, you might end up with fliers in a Viv for a while. Not the end of the world, until you open the door.


Thanks, I did consider exactly that! My bedroom is the same area where the viv is, so I get the occasional gnats (mostly the flies are all going to the apple cider trap), and it isn't a big deal. Plus, all three frogs are very active and acrobatic, so I wouldn't put too much stake in the fliers' ability to survive too long.  It's a risk I'm willing to take. Plus there's always flypaper.



zimmerj said:


> What about other food sources as well?


Yes. I don't culture isopods but there may be some in the vivarium. I say "may" because I did seed with a couple different kinds, but I had to CO2 bomb due to ants. This supposedly kills all the microfauna but the springtails survived just fine, so I don't know about the isos.

I do culture my own springtails, so that's three kinds of insects now with the gliders. Due to limitations of space and my disability, I can't do more than that currently. Most likely I'll throw more isopods in the viv at some point though.


----------



## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

ZenMonkey said:


> I do culture my own springtails, so that's three kinds of insects now with the gliders. Due to limitations of space and my disability, I can't do more than that currently. Most likely I'll throw more isopods in the viv at some point though.


Sorry to hear that  Is there any reason you stopped culturing isos?


----------



## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

Oh and you guys have me thinking about getting some Turkish gliders now. They're similar in size to the melanogasters? I feed them to all my frogs in addition to hydei except to my imitators


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

zimmerj said:


> Oh and you guys have me thinking about getting some Turkish gliders now. They're similar in size to the melanogasters? I feed them to all my frogs in addition to hydei except to my imitators


They are the same species as the typical flightless melanogaster, hence the similar size 

I have thought about breeding gliders, but I haven't tried them quite yet. I rotate hydei and melanos that I do culture for all of my darts except the terribilis who get hydei and the occasional cricket. I'm a fan of feeding a varied diet, even if the differences in feeders are small 

John


----------



## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

zimmerj said:


> Is there any reason you stopped culturing isos?


I never did in the first place. I dumped them all into the vivarium. I've only ever cultured melanogaster and springtails. Whenever we might move out of here (not anytime soon), I'll be able to set up an area for culturing and will be better able to try a couple of new species. 

It's always harder to do an ex post facto setup for two vivaria, one small terrarium, a set of insect drawers and space for eggs/embryos and tadpoles! I'm happy with how it's all set up but there's no room for expansion.

The gliders are exactly the same size as the flightless flies. As long as your frogs can catch them, they can eat them.


----------

