# Climbing Darts?



## arian1123 (Mar 5, 2013)

Are there any dart frog that will make use of vertical area as well just the ground. So in other words are there darts that also like to sit on higher ledges in tank like on a background or so or like to climb?


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

My Varadero loves to sit on the front glass and utilize every bit of space in the tank, he's always out!


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

My E. Anthonyi Santa Isabels love to climb. They hang all over the background and on higher plant leaves.

Most thumbnails are pretty at home vertically. I know there are others. How big a viv are we talking?


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

My banded imitators seemingly live and sleep on the glass sides of their 10 gallon vert...extremely bold, beautiful, and affordable frogs.

But as far as using horizontal areas throughout the tank's height, I'd say Leucomelas would be a good choice.


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## arian1123 (Mar 5, 2013)

GP dynamite said:


> My E. Anthonyi Santa Isabels love to climb. They hang all over the background and on higher plant leaves.
> 
> Most thumbnails are pretty at home vertically. I know there are others. How big a viv are we talking?


I have a 10 gallon vert. I have 2 baby tincs in there right now, but I dont have a background or anything yet, so when the tincs grow a bit more im going to move them into a tank with more floor space since I know they are terrestrial. In the meantime I want to put up a foam background that I will insert with plants and ledges to just make some more functional space.


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## arian1123 (Mar 5, 2013)

jdooley195 said:


> My banded imitators seemingly live and sleep on the glass sides of their 10 gallon vert...extremely bold, beautiful, and affordable frogs.
> 
> But as far as using horizontal areas throughout the tank's height, I'd say Leucomelas would be a good choice.


Awesome, I like leucs actually. Do you know anything about pumilios? Im very intrigued by some them


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I'll pm you a couple shots of my builds that have worked well for tincs...

Tincs will make really good use of ledges as well, it just kind of depends on the frog's personality and how the tank is set up. My male New River spends almost no time on the floor.

What type of frogs do you have?

Haha, well there's a lot of people that can tell you infinitely more about pumilio than me, but from a tinc lovers perspective, here's my thoughts on them...

I recently got Almirante, and I am happy with them. One is very bold, and the other is starting to come around. Their size is about that of a freshly morphed tinc. I'd definitely recommend them though!

Some pumilio are too small to enjoy (for me, as a tinc guy ). Yes they're pretty, but it's nice to be able to look into your tank and see your frogs. I've been in front of pumilio tanks looking in and saying to a fellow frogger "Oh, sooo...there's how many in there?" It's nice to show off your frogs, and it's hard when they are very small.

Then there's the pumilio care...there's a lot of info on here that I recommend you spend lots of time reading...I wont go into it, as I am still in the process of figuring it all out.

I'll pm you in a bit with those pics.

Tommy


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## arian1123 (Mar 5, 2013)

Awesome, thanks!
I love my azureus as well, however I know Im going to have to move them in a couple of months as well, so its nice that they like ledges too. My friend gave me a juvenile auratus, since she ws breaking down her tank, but I need to move that one in its own tank soon too, since I do not want to mix them. I;m not worried about that too much now since they are both juvenile, but sooner rather than later.
Eventually my idea is to have a couple of frogs in my 10g vert now, that wont grow out of it. thumbnails are too small for me, so I was thinking something like pumilio almirante pair would be nice in there, since those are smaller, but not too small.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Thumbs are too small for you? I guess your screwed, as I think (some might argue) 10g vert is too small for any tricolor/anthonyi or any pumilio, and in my opinion there really just isn't enough floor space for any other kinds. I personally think that the only thing that can work well in a 10g vertical is a pair of Ranitomaya.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Some Variablilis and Banded Imitators are surprisingly large...my bandeds are the same length as my Almirante, but a little heftier, and my neighbor had some Variabilis that were easily larger than both of those. When I was asking around abbout size of pums, here's what I got 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/93010-size-pumilio.html

Just to add, my banded imis are just as bold as my Azureus, if not more so...I don't know if they're all that way or what, but mine don't mind me at all. I have to shake the front lid to get them off so I can feed them


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I was kinda scared when getting my first thumbs , but the care isnt to much different from that of any other frog. You said yoy want to put a "few" in so I'd say green or orange sirensis would be a good pick. A group of four would be ok for a 10g , although some would argue that. But they are generallya good starter thumb as are the banded imis. As for pums yoy prolly want ti get some experience before going that route. But I will say my escudo are some of the smallest pums and are some of my boldest frogs, even with all the leaf litter plants and other hidding spots every time I look into there viv I'll see atleast two of the three.


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

All my frogs (Sig line) climb often, except yellow backs.

All my thumbs spend most of their time off the ground, they come down to feed.

My leucs all sleep off the ground. 

No one told my azureus they were supposed to like ground space...


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

My P. bicolors use just about all of their 30 inches of vertical space. Sometimes they will stay up high in the bigger broms. They have no problem scaling the cork background and hanging out at the top for a bit. They aren't the least bit shy and will sit out in the open at the top for extended periods of time. 

It might be hard to tell how much vertical space they will actually use until you get them in there.


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## arian1123 (Mar 5, 2013)

I saw that size of pumilio thread as well and thats why I figured pumilios to be ok since they are really not much bigger than most thumbnails. Then again that was a conclusion i made so it might not be correct obviously.


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## arian1123 (Mar 5, 2013)

scoy said:


> I was kinda scared when getting my first thumbs , but the care isnt to much different from that of any other frog. You said yoy want to put a "few" in so I'd say green or orange sirensis would be a good pick. A group of four would be ok for a 10g , although some would argue that. But they are generallya good starter thumb as are the banded imis. As for pums yoy prolly want ti get some experience before going that route. But I will say my escudo are some of the smallest pums and are some of my boldest frogs, even with all the leaf litter plants and other hidding spots every time I look into there viv I'll see atleast two of the three.


what makes pumilios more difficult? Ive read that before but i havent found anything that suggests that their care is any different than that of other darts. what's your experience?


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I feel that terrestrial frogs that climb are cold.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm new to pumilio myself , so not the best to give advice. But from what I gather its the care of froglets which makes them less idea for begginers. TTheres alot of threads about this , just search calcium clay or young obligates. Also there the fact that most pums you find forsale are wild caught and thats another can of worms, or belly. Haha. Just do your research and you should be ok. Also from my understanding nots pums are smaller than ranitomeya, and not the other way.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I have noticed my terrestrial frogs climbing to the top edges of the viv to eat the fruit flies that are trying to escape. Next time you feed your frogs come back a few mins later and check the rim of yoyr viv for ff. I have an auratus that climbs a stick to the top corner to eat, not cold just hungry.


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

My Leucs and R.Vanzolini are my climbers.

My Azureus climb about 1/2 way up their home.

Steve


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

gturmindright said:


> I feel that terrestrial frogs that climb are cold.


Don't think so. My tank will hit 80 and they still climb.


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## andya26 (Mar 27, 2012)

I hate to jump in the party here and ask another question, but I am currently making a 40g breeder vert and have been going back and forth on what I should put in there. 

I originally planned on putting varaderos in it but after further consideration of their price I have decided to re-consider my options. I really am intrigued by leucs as EVERYONE loves them. 

Would 3-4 leucs be comfortable in and utilize a 40 breeder vert?


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

andya26 said:


> I hate to jump in the party here and ask another question, but I am currently making a 40g breeder vert and have been going back and forth on what I should put in there.
> 
> I originally planned on putting varaderos in it but after further consideration of their price I have decided to re-consider my options. I really am intrigued by leucs as EVERYONE loves them.
> 
> Would 3-4 leucs be comfortable in and utilize a 40 breeder vert?


Yes, easily...even 6 would still be very happy in there


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## andya26 (Mar 27, 2012)

jdooley195 said:


> Yes, easily...even 6 would still be very happy in there


Thank you, I think it will be very cool to have large frogs that will climb and be as active and as bold as I have heard they are.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I always wondered if they went up there and ate those.


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## cowboys22 (Mar 30, 2011)

Most of your pumilio an thumbnails climb a lot.(which are my favorite)..azureus and other tincs are mostly terrestrial(stay on the ground)especially when they start to get larger..


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

arian1123 said:


> Are there any dart frog that will make use of vertical area as well just the ground. So in other words are there darts that also like to sit on higher ledges in tank like on a background or so or like to climb?


Nearly any dart, even tinctorius, terribilis etc. will climb if given suitable climbing space. In the wild, tincs have reportedly been found 18 m up in trees and bicolors as high as 7 m. That being said, usually it's the thumbnails. Ranitomeya flavovittata are reportedly even more arboreal than other thumbs, almost never coming down to the ground.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

scoy said:


> Also from my understanding nots pums are smaller than ranitomeya, and not the other way.



That is not entirely true. Sure, I know for fact there are some morphs of pumilio that are at least the same size as ranitomeya (You ever seen Escudo? ), but I am also certain there are larger morphs of pumilio that are noticeably bigger then most Ranitomeya species, I am fairly certain of it.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

senditdonkey said:


> Don't think so. My tank will hit 80 and they still climb.


My terribilis spent time near the ceiling at 87 degrees (the AC broke, and we didn't find out for a couple of hours). Although, they might actually have been trying to cool off.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

arian1123 said:


> what makes pumilios more difficult? Ive read that before but i havent found anything that suggests that their care is any different than that of other darts. what's your experience?


I don't have any pumilio experience yet (I am waiting to get some actual thumbnail breeding experience first), but I couldn't help reading about them tons. 

I think what makes them advanced in care is like Scoy mentioned, rearing young froglets, as they are small and delicate, and as they would sometimes randomly die around 4-5 months of age, linked to calcium deficiency. We call this syndrome MOODS (Mysterious Obligate Offspring Disappearance Syndrome). One way to counter this problem is by using clay substrate. It is, by no means, absolutely required, but I personally will not have any other substrate in any obligate vivaria/froglet tank. More info can be found here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/94590-must-clay-substrate-pumilio.html 

Another thing that makes them difficult, I've read, is they can be very aggressive when males are trying to establish a territory/get a mate. But I should think, as long as you either have only one lone male or the tank is very large, this shouldn't be much of a problem. 

I've also heard breeding can be difficult. As you probably know, you cannot pull any eggs/tads found in the vivarium, as the tadpoles will only and solely eat the infertile egg laid by the female obligate. The female will revisit the bromeliad axle (or really any other deposition site where a tad is) and keep laying an egg there, until the tadpoles morph out. 

Since the froglet morphs out in the tank, it may be months before you find it and are able to pull it, so a strong springtail population is definitely recommended (some will say required), as little baby obligates need to eat as often as possible, not just when the parents are fed. 

I personally think jumping strait into obligates is a bad idea (Even if you have experience keeping large frogs). Although some have done it, I think experience breeding other frogs (Especially thumbnails) will make it much easier.


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## cowboys22 (Mar 30, 2011)

Most pumilio and thumbnails climb all the time


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