# Frog Birth Certificate



## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

someone mentioned this earlier in a recent thread, and I've been wondering why we don't have a simple form of some sort that has the basic info that people should pass on and encourage stores to do the same ... sort of thing.

So I've started something simple. Lets work on this! I'll eventually make a nice certificate looking thing that can be used by everyone photocopied and passed on once we have a format we are generally agree on. 


Unofficial Lineage Certificate

Frog line root info:
Family:	
Genus:
Line:
Import:

Generations:
WC: linename Owner: name + signature? Bred offspring owner: person1 Date:


CB-G1: linename Owner: person1 + signature? Bred offspring owner: person2 Date:

CB-G2: linename Owner: person2 + signature? Bred offspring owner: person2 (kept offspring sample) Date:

CB-G2: linename/linename (cross line breeding) Owner: person2 + signature? Bred offspring owner: person2 (kept offspring sample) Date:

Also probably leave a space for transfer of ownership and that sort of stuff.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

I would like to see this type of information on a frog's "Birth Certificate":

Individual I.D. #
Other I.D. #
Genus
Species
Sub species
Import Year
Population
Captive Bred Y/N
Morph Date
Farmed Import Y/N
Wild Collected Y/N
Acquisition Date
Sire I.D.
Sire Obtained from
Sire Notes
Dame I.D.
Dame Obtained from
Dame Notes
Other notes
Breeder/Seller's Signature
Photograph


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I like this idea. I know that TWI was trying to keep up tracking but it seemed to not catch on. Maybe it was too labor intensive or confusing for the average frogger? Dunno. Your idea would be excellent 'in between' record keeping. Perhaps if we did this, the transition to something like what TWI had wouldn't seem so daunting.


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

How would we have an ID number? standardized formatting?

Family initial.Genus abbreviation-morph abbreviation - Breeder Initials_OOWdate mmyy - frog number- farm/tank -/CB/WC?

D.AUR-SP:ST1112-1-tank-CB ?

not sure about dame and sire, when people have community tanks there isn't always a way to know.



What about

Back photo / tummy photo
Family:Genus:Morph:Line:
ID#: D.AUR-SP:ST1112-1-tank-CB 
Breeder:
Owner 1: Acquisition Date:
Owner 2: Acquisition Date: <--- in case of sale
Notes: If exists Dame and Sire number

Would be nice to have a database where breeders could register each frog.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I would caution you to not make it too complicated. Froggers have short attention spans


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

True maybe ill make it a series of check boxes that can be converted to a id #
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

sutzor, look at this: Amphibian Steward Network | Tree Walkers International


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

What about an editable pdf that any one with a computer can use? Too complicated?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

sutzor, I think it would be a great thing to be sent along with frogs to a new owner. TWI already has a data base set up. I wonder if your birth certificate idea would help people segue into listing their animals with TWI? 

Is TWI still maintaining the database? Hmm, I'll find out.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogface said:


> I would caution you to not make it too complicated. Froggers have short attention spans


Kris, I really don't what you're imp


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Frog Pedigree. 
Unfortunately, there has to be an entity collecting and keeping that data (i.e. TICA, for cats). The forms would come after that. 
I like the idea though. This hobby/business can be so specific with origins that a formal way of keeping track could be really helpful - from importation paperwork to sire/dam names. 
This would definitely separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

frogface said:


> sutzor, look at this: Amphibian Steward Network | Tree Walkers International


I thought all the members with the TWI handle were doing that this whole time?


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

JPccusa said:


> Frog Pedigree.
> Unfortunately, there has to be an entity collecting and keeping that data (i.e. TICA, for cats). The forms would come after that.
> I like the idea though. This hobby/business can be so specific with origins that a formal way of keeping track could be really helpful - from importation paperwork to sire/dam names.
> This would definitely separate the wheat from the chaff.


This idea is intended to be a grass roots effort designed to be a readily available, standardized, completely voluntary form. This will facilitate better record keeping practices, and not be sanctioned by any higher power. Hopefully this can work as a stepping stone toward a TWI/ASN system. The forms will only be as good as the person providing them. (Hence my suggestion for a signature.)

Snake breeders have uses a I.D. system that consists of the breeder's initials, the year the animal was produced and an ascending numerical identifier. I.e. The 15th animal I produced this year would be CS-13-15.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

suztor said:


> What about an editable pdf that any one with a computer can use? Too complicated?
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2


Sounds reasonable. 
I would try to model it after the information that ASN is looking for. One of the best outcomes of this would be to get people used to collecting and transferring this type of information. 
A standardized size like a 3"x5" would be helpful.
Thoughts.


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

That is also why I suggested a signature. Helps lend some legitimacy to the information provided.



Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

frogface said:


> sutzor, I think it would be a great thing to be sent along with frogs to a new owner. TWI already has a data base set up. I wonder if your birth certificate idea would help people segue into listing their animals with TWI?
> 
> Is TWI still maintaining the database? Hmm, I'll find out.


Has anyone ever been able to view the database from TWI? I was never even allowed to add my frogs to the database, so not sure how that system is any good if no one can actually view/use it.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Sherman said:


> This idea is intended to be a grass roots effort designed to be a readily available, standardized, completely voluntary form. This will facilitate better record keeping practices, and not be sanctioned by any higher power. Hopefully this can work as a stepping stone toward a TWI/ASN system. The forms will only be as good as the person providing them. (Hence my suggestion for a signature.)
> 
> Snake breeders have uses a I.D. system that consists of the breeder's initials, the year the animal was produced and an ascending numerical identifier. I.e. The 15th animal I produced this year would be CS-13-15.


If I want a cat from a reputable breeder, instead of from a cat mill, the first question I would ask is if the breeder is registered with TICA (or other reputable organization). The reason for that is because I know a breeder can only register legitimate animals. In other words, TICA assures buyers that the cat being purchased has a clean track record (not mixed, legitimate). 

Please correct me if I am not understanding, but wouldn't the grass roots idea look like just some form of standardized receipt of purchase with extra information? Perhaps that is the idea? And if it is, nothing would prevent the buyer from fudging the "paperwork", would it?


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

tachikoma said:


> Has anyone ever been able to view the database from TWI? I was never even allowed to add my frogs to the database, so not sure how that system is any good if no one can actually view/use it.


I believe that project was shelved due to lack of participation.

People were just reluctant to register their animals. Same for the frogtraks database that Rob created.

Everyone said it was a great idea, but hardly anyone took the time to register their animals.


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## imzenko (Feb 2, 2013)

this has been tried twice before that I can remember. 
frog tracks is the other frog tracker that was thought up. just do a search on here. pretty much the same stuff that you were writing about.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

JPccusa said:


> If I want a cat from a reputable breeder, instead of from a cat mill, the first question I would ask is if the breeder is registered with TICA (or other reputable organization). The reason for that is because I know a breeder can only register legitimate animals. In other words, TICA assures buyers that the cat being purchased has a clean track record (not mixed, legitimate).
> 
> Please correct me if I am not understanding, but wouldn't the grass roots idea look like just some form of standardized receipt of purchase with extra information? Perhaps that is the idea? And if it is, nothing would prevent the buyer from fudging the "paperwork", would it?


I think this hobby has proven over and over again that "fudging the paperwork" is standard practice for far too many...


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Trust and reputation will still be more important than a piece of paper. 

The benefit is that ink and paper do not forget or create false memories. It would serve as a hard record to rely upon as years pass by. It is also much harder to talk around a lie that is clearly written on paper and signed.

The standardization would allow for easy recognition of the information from one person to the next.

Yes it is essentially an extension of the standardized classified format. TWI and Frog Tracks were centralized databases. This would not be centralized, it is only a standardized format for information that breeders can choose to supply with their offspring to facilitate better record keeping for the whole community.


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

frogface said:


> I would caution you to not make it too complicated. Froggers have short attention spans


I think it's a great idea to have......oooooo shiny ....a database of ......squirrel. Did you see the squirrel?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> I thought all the members with the TWI handle were doing that this whole time?


I always looked.at it.as the majority of people with the blue names just paid a fee.....not doing anything different then anyone else on the forum.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I think a big problem with having a public database is privacy.

People keeping some of the more rare/hard to breed frogs are frequently reluctant to tell people about them because they don't want to be inundated with requests for offspring. Also, a lot of those same frogs sometimes have questionable legality and having it out in the open that I own castis or mysteriosus would be undesirable (I don't actually own them, just an example). Now, people could just leave those frogs off their list... But that sorta undermines the whole concept.

Also, there are frequent threats to legal ownership of many reptiles/amphibians... If laws were to change and there was a database of the frogs that I own somewhere it makes it very easy for someone to go "oh hey, this guy has dart frogs in our state... Lets go raid his house". Obviously I'm SOL in NJ because I have to have licenses anyway, but this could be a problem for people in other states.

Now, because an online database doesn't seem feasible... I think this idea of a birth certificate is fantastic. The only problem I see is trying to make it too specific. Often times people sell groups of frogs as froglets and trying to pin down an exact frog in a group that is going to grow and possibly change its patterns/coloration would be tough. 

For example, say I buy 6 variabilis that are labelled a, b, c, d, e and f. 6 months later it turns out I got 5 males and 1 female. I want to trade/sell a male or 2 and pick up some more females. For me to go back in their viv and pull frogs D and F would be nearly impossible unless I've been taking pictures of them constantly to document what they look like. That is just too much work and people won't participate.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I want to give a suggestion as this was brought up in the post I started.

Rather then saying this is frog A, B, etc. I think what we should be doing is something similar to this:

I purchase a WC pair of Rio Branco from someone (since they are the newest line in). My Rio Branco start producing offspring. I have some piece of paperwork that I send to the people that are wanting to buy with the frogs that states:

Year of obtainment, who I got from, and basic information of frog.

Then the person with my F1 starts adding to the information when he starts breeding the frogs.

Same information just twice.

2013; Strictly Reptiles; frogs were red and black with reticulations, Rio Branco WC Pair

2015; VenomR00; Frogs were red with black reticulations and blue legs, Rio Branco F1 Pair

I think this information is very easy to add.

It also helps down the road when we start wanting to mix other pairs together with different lines of same import year we have something that can be easily accessible. Obviously this is to help prevent line breeding. An example is this.

2017; VenomR00 Male/Deep9 (obtained from secondary person) Female; Male Parent Red and black with no spots Female is yellow and gold with high reticulation, Rio Branco, Male F1 female F2

That way this is a physical piece of paper for only the buyer and seller to have together. No trace or database and it can even be made into some form of word document that would take a few minutes to just edit.

It can be signed so if problems along the line then at least it can be brought to the attention of people.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

It's a good idea again..and again,but I don't see it happening.As stated earlier anyone can fudge their own paperwork.Basically you need to know and trust who you are buying from.Import year and such is basic info in our classifieds section.I just don't see enough people participating in it to be worth the paper it's written on.Just my opinion though.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Lou, the problem is that you believe in the "tragedy of the commons". Without change from a few there can be no change ever. Sure it doesn't seem feasible now, but if it starts happening over and over it will become common nomenclature to just send that info.

I personally will start sending the information when I start selling my frogs even if no one else does because at least that is stating I am willing to back up my frogs and the person 15 years down the road can still come back to me and see the information or if I am lucky enough to still have them and they wanted another pair I could sell them from the exact ones.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I guess frog ownership is kinda like gun ownership. People don't want their information centralized because they don't want their frogs taken away.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

VenomR00 said:


> Lou, the problem is that you believe in the "tragedy of the commons". Without change from a few there can be no change ever. Sure it doesn't seem feasible now, but if it starts happening over and over it will become common nomenclature to just send that info.
> 
> I personally will start sending the information when I start selling my frogs even if no one else does because at least that is stating I am willing to back up my frogs and the person 15 years down the road can still come back to me and see the information or if I am lucky enough to still have them and they wanted another pair I could sell them from the exact ones.


The problem with"tragedy of commons" is it has failed twice already even with "change from a few".

and don't take this the wrong way but I have seen alot of people come and go,especially the younger crowd,because of school or other interests or just the workload of everyday life plus the responsibility of taking care of all their frogs(even seasoned vets get burned out).That's when you see collection sales and such.Then how do you get a hold of the person that signed off on the frogs to have them "back up their frogs".Unfortunately that's when the paper trail ends.Just some thoughts.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

hypostatic said:


> I guess frog ownership is kinda like gun ownership. People don't want their information centralized because they don't want their frogs taken away.


If anybody tries to take my frogs away, they're going to find themselves staring down the nose of a Varadero!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> If anybody tries to take my frogs away, they're going to find themselves staring down the nose of a Varadero!


Ahhaha! Thanks for the coffee spit on my keyboard


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I think it is good just because it encourages better record-keeping. I'm not saying it should be a be all end all "have this or I won't purchase your frogs" kind of thing.

It would just be nice to have a standardized form saying what information should be tracked by all hobbyists. That way, even if I'm buying from someone that doesn't use this method, I could ask them to fill it in for me.

Right now, I just have an excel sheet that I use to track my frogs and it has lineage, age, etc... But probably not allll the pertinent information I should be tracking. So if some more experienced keepers came up with a standard sheet that says "this is the information you want"... I think it will benefit a lot of people.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

But it seems like the hobby can't even agree on what information is really that important to keep. 

For me, the more information the better. For people dealing with hundreds of frogs per year, the minutia is just unnecessary extra work.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Historically we tend to be pretty good about talking and not so good about doing. I remember feeling guilty that I had not kept up with registering offspring from frogs I had registered with ASN. Then looking at the database it appeared very few people had either. Then there was the issue that despite good intentions, a lot of the info stewards provided, was not accurate. A really good project through TWI was organizing free chytrid testing, postage paid test kits, return envelope, clear instructions. It appeared that it was like getting a kid to the dentist, to get people who had volunteered to send in the samples. Take a look at how vocal everyone is for DB contests, and then how many submissions actually get sent in. 

Now, trying not to be such a downer, it is still nice to see enthusiasm from people. Keeping info on our frogs is never a waste of time. I am glad that …you do care.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> For example, say I buy 6 variabilis that are labelled a, b, c, d, e and f. 6 months later it turns out I got 5 males and 1 female. I want to trade/sell a male or 2 and pick up some more females. For me to go back in their viv and pull frogs D and F would be nearly impossible unless I've been taking pictures of them constantly to document what they look like. That is just too much work and people won't participate.


This is what killed the effort for me.

I tried. I started with registering only the ones I knew data on, like Understory frogs, and the imports from FLA.

But as groups were split, traded out male for female etc it became impossible to keep exact track.

Few people cared about the TWI registration # [ASN] when I sold/traded frogs anyway, mainly I suspect b/c they werent registering their animals.

I offered discounts [Many TWI members did] to anyone who was also a member, and I helped with the initial TMP's.

I dont know what it would take to resurrect the effort, but starting over with an entirely new system seems redundant. 

I think those interested should contact a TWI officer and join the group, use their forum/blog, and see what help you can offer them.

Until then buy/trade from people you trust.


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

We could set up a simple interface where breeders input data once and get an id# that follows the frog wherever it goes. 

I would still like to come up with a simple form that anyone can use for free to keep track and pass on info as they choose. I think it would be a nice courtesy if breeders could pass on clear info. Especially for n00bs, who might not know all the questions to ask.

Example: I got my first frogs from someone who had gotten them from else who had gotten the parents from one of our vendors. I managed to trace back all the way to the vendor with no luck in finding out what line the frogs are. If they had sent a basic info card or id# on the frogs... I would have been able to trace it back.

It doesn't have to be something that is logged, just standardized. And if enough vendors send Id info it will likely lead to more people searching to buy from people who send Id frogs. Ideally it would become another indicator of trusted breeders.


So back to my original question. How would you like the optional and courtesy form to contain and be structured? (whether or not people use it in abundance I still would like to provide one.)

What info would you like in a potential standardized id# coding?



~Sue


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I keep a "studbook" with all of my frogs info ... etc ...
Lineage, Age, Date I purchased, generation ... 
I document everything. 
I also keep a loose record of who I've sold to.
I know who bought what & when for how much ... etc ... 

If we are not entering our frogs into a database, as responsible froggers, we should at minimum be keeping a personal log.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are probably right." -Someone else. (If you know the origin of this please PM me)

Yes, we understand registration has failed in the past. In fact the most recent attempt just officially died. TWI acknowledges the failure of the registration process, and they are "dismantling" the stewardship/registration program.

This is not an attempt at registration. Please stop posting negative things here. If you think this is a waste of time, stop wasting your time reading. If you must voice your nay-saying opinions start a thread titled "Frog Birth Certificates, what are those wackos thinking?"

This thread is to assist people that would like to keep records of what they have, trade and sell by creating a standardized information card. Please contribute your suggestions as to what information you think people should try to keep, what format would best benefit the "hobby" or any other constructive bit you may have.

Thank you,
Chris Sherman


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

Alright based on some of the input I've come up with a first draft. It's a half page size so 8.5x5.5 there are binders out there for that size so it would be easy to hole punch to keep stored away and organized.

Obviously this is not the final version. Please let me know what changes revisions or additions you would make.

The image is of low quality (because of DB upload limitations) so if you want me to send you a more legible PDF PM me your email, and I'll send you one. 











on a side note... how are generations determined? 

is it WC G1 G2 G3 G4....etc? or is WC G1?

then if you breed a G4 with a G2 is that a G3 or a G5?


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Here is a thread that may help with your question : http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/87041-f-generational-numbering.html



suztor said:


> on a side note... how are generations determined?
> 
> is it WC G1 G2 G3 G4....etc? or is WC G1?
> 
> then if you breed a G4 with a G2 is that a G3 or a G5?


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

Thanks for that ... Man that is slightly confusing. I thought generations were measured in how far from the original pair they are. 

Oh well, any comments on the form?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

It's a good start... but personally I think its a little too specific. 

Sire and Dame? How am I supposed to know that when I keep a 2.2 group and find a clutch of eggs without watching the courting? or better yet... my breeding group of SIs. There's 6 of them in there and I see calling and see a couple fatter ones... but I can maybe tell 1 or 2 of them apart from the rest because of their markings.

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I think trying to track individual frogs via ID numbers is just unrealistic. I really think these "Birth Certificates" need to just be something standardized everyone can use for their own reference.

I've requested info on frogs before and it has been like this "oh well I think they are from this year, this line... but I'll have to find where I wrote it down". Sometimes I've gotten a concrete answer, sometimes I haven't.

If everyone uses a form like this, it just makes keeping track of the information easier... If someone asks me about my frogs I can send them this sheet. Or if I ask someone about theirs, they can send me this sheet. It also gives newbies an idea of the type of information they should request when purchasing frogs.

The big key to making this work is going to be getting people on board with putting a little bit of time into using it. Making it required for classifieds ads would be a good way to motivate people... Currently the "recommended" format for sales ads leaves a lot to be desired when you see people post things like "hey I have 6 azureus froglets for sale 3 months oow $30.each" and that's the end of the ad.

and that's my 2 cents...


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

I'm completely aware that sire and dame are insanely specific. I gave the same example early on in the thread. But there are people who also keep only pairs.

I sort of see it this way: if you have the info fill it in if not possible, fill in N/A

But understand what you are saying I personally don't see the use of sire and dame aside from tracking line and even then, its not like there is a database of frogs. So maybe that is more for personal record keeping than pass on info. But why not include it if you have it?

Obviously boxes like sex should be left empty until it is a clear answer. 

If the info is available, why not fill it out?

As far as the serial number goes. I'm working out the details. I still don't think it'll be too complicated.

I'm thinking it'll include the info on the form as a code so if there are surveys or studies, you can give that number while staying anonymous. It'll asking make it so if sire and dame are included you just put their code.

Either way the form is more of a place to put the info you want to keep track of, not mandatory record keeping. So just fill in what you find important to pass on. 

I just want to offer the chance for all the inbetween info to also be captured.

I think that if mass breeders (like our vendors) filled out about 6 of those lines. We would all be pretty happy. No?

I could bold or something the basic suggested pass on info. Everything else is optional.

~Sue


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

The risk you run is by having too many items to the point where if the person filling out the information feels like they can't fill in a lot of it, they will just not do it.

I see it all the time at work. If a client isn't sure about a lot of items on the form, they just won't fill out any of it. So if 1/3 of the form is very simple stuff they know like name/dob/address and the other 2/3 is stuff they don't know, they skip the whole thing and just come to me like "yea I wasn't sure how to fill this out"

Its a human nature thing... People don't like starting something they can't finish.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

also, I don't think cost is really pertinent information for something like this. Costs can fluctuate quite a bit over time and it doesn't really have anything to do with the animal, just the value we assign to them


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

I see your point. Hmmm....do you think a clearly labeled optional info section might help that? Maybe in grey so it doesn't feel like incompletion?



Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm not sure if a grey area would really help. It might be worth a shot though.

It also might be easier if this isn't an exact "one per frog" sheet.

I sell a pair that are F1s... they can be just listed as a 1.1 for sex and then fill in all the other information.

This would streamline things for selling at shows, etc. A breeder has 20 azureus juvis at the beginning of the show. They print out several of these and fills in all the information ahead of time except the quantity/sex. 

Someone walks up and buys 3 azureus, they get the sheet that was already filled out and then just note that they are 0.0.3.

Having a "notes" section at the bottom will allow people to maybe put a quick bit of info in if they want. Things like "male has missing toe" or "female has large black spots".


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> This is what killed the effort for me.
> 
> I tried. I started with registering only the ones I knew data on, like Understory frogs, and the imports from FLA.
> 
> But as groups were split, traded out male for female etc it became impossible to keep exact track.


+1 Shawn... Out of a dozen pairs of tincs we registered in 2009, I only have 1 original pair in our collection 4 years later. A few frogs passed away, a few were swapped, a few were sold. It was an eye opener for myself to see our frogs were not as static as I had assumed. Sure, we have some pairs that have been together for 10+ years, but when dealing with living animals things can and will eventually change and the bigger the collection the harder it is to keep track of all the changes. This aspect is what kept me from keeping up with registration and updating of our animals.

But I think you hit the nail on the head with regards to why there was poor registration to begin with... When you say:



sports_doc said:


> I started with registering only the ones I knew data on, like Understory frogs, and the imports from FLA.


I think a majority of froggers have frogs that can't really be traced back to a founder line. How many of us as newbs bought frogs at a local show and didn't even think to ask about line info? How many have unknowingly bought frogs directly from unsavory sources? How many have bought frogs from someone that bought frogs from a known scammer/liar? A few bad eggs have cast a wide shadow of doubt unfortunately...

I can go thru our entire collection and rattle off lines and sources, but reality is that 80% of them are based on what I was told by a guy, who was told by a guy, who was told by a guy... that someone got their group from source X. No reason to doubt all those guys - buuuut, I can't really confirm the validity of the information either.

And when you get right down to it... do you want to be the guy or gal that goes on record with their frogs as being line X, and not be 100% sure about it - thus screwing everyone else trying to manage a particular line?? I didn't.

If I can't verify what I have, then I was reluctant to register... I suspect others may have felt the same.

Finally, I think your last statement is a mantra to live by...




sports_doc said:


> Until then buy/trade from people you trust.


Sadly, my list is very short.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

JL-Exotics said:


> Out of a dozen pairs of tincs we registered in 2009, I only have 1 original pair in our collection 4 years later. A few frogs passed away, a few were swapped, a few were sold. It was an eye opener for myself to see our frogs were not as static as I had assumed. Sure, we have some pairs that have been together for 10+ years, but when dealing with living animals things can and will eventually change and the bigger the collection the harder it is to keep track of all the changes. This aspect is what kept me from keeping up with registration and updating of our animals.


This is not an attempt to register anyone's frogs. That does not work for many reasons, including the ones that you have listed. 
The larger the collection, the greater challenge to maintain all aspects of husbandry.



JL-Exotics said:


> I think a majority of froggers have frogs that can't really be traced back to a founder line.


...and they keep on coming. Sad.
It would be nice to have practice keeping some sort of records in case we ever source traceable/verifiable stock.



JL-Exotics said:


> How many of us as newbs bought frogs at a local show and didn't even think to ask about line info?


A standardized information sheet handed to you when you bought those frogs might have helped you understand that the information on it might be worth remembering. Even if it was as basic as the scientific name, locality, sellers name and date of sale.



JL-Exotics said:


> I can go thru our entire collection and rattle off lines and sources, but reality is that 80% of them are based on what I was told by a guy, who was told by a guy, who was told by a guy... that someone got their group from source X. No reason to doubt all those guys - buuuut, I can't really confirm the validity of the information either.


A standardized information sheet that was handed from one guy, then handed to another guy, that sent it to yet another guy, would not change nearly as much as verbal communication and therefore be measurably more accurate than the telling of this information. 
This simple idea could have helped to reduce the amount of confusion and doubt you and countless others, including myself, have about our collections.



JL-Exotics said:


> And when you get right down to it... do you want to be the guy or gal that goes on record with their frogs as being line X, and not be 100% sure about it - thus screwing everyone else trying to manage a particular line?? I didn't.


Write "Not 100% sure" on the card if you feel the information is not solid. Some information, even if slightly suspect, and documented thusly, is better than no information.

I understand that some would not want to spend the time to supply this information, that's fine. Don't. This is not a mandatory measure, just a good idea that has the potential of helping out new frog owners.


Chris Sherman


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

I think this is a great idea!


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

volcano23000 said:


> I think this is a great idea! The only reason someone wouldn't want to do this is if they are *lazy* and if that is the case, they shouldn't be keeping frogs anyway.


I find this very offensive. Try keeping track of 120+ adult frogs and several hundred froglets. Then you can come back and say that...It's a huge commitment! The opposite of *lazy.*Not to mention the time involved, costs of buying and maintaining a large collection...Maybe you should be a little more grateful to the people that do this.

For some of us, we do this for ourselves and the hobby as a whole. My focus is having a large Tinc collection in Canada. I have 14 morphs and a few more to go. I want a stable population here that won't vanish as hobbyists disappear. We've lost many in the past and are forced to re-import from the USA. Not sustainable, risky and expensive.

Regards,


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> I find this very offensive. Try keeping track of 120+ adult frogs and several hundred froglets. Then you can come back and say that...It's a huge commitment! The opposite of *lazy.*Not to mention the time involved, costs of buying and maintaining a large collection...Maybe you should be a little more grateful to the people that do this.
> 
> For some of us, we do this for ourselves and the hobby as a whole. My focus is having a large Tinc collection in Canada. I have 14 morphs and a few more to go. I want a stable population here that won't vanish as hobbyists disappear. We've lost many in the past and are forced to re-import from the USA. Not sustainable, risky and expensive.
> 
> Regards,


Sorry...notice i edited. I don't mean to be rude, forgive me


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

volcano23000 said:


> Sorry...notice i edited. I don't mean to be rude, forgive me


No problem...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *carola1155*
> _For example, say I buy 6 variabilis that are labelled a, b, c, d, e and f. 6 months later it turns out I got 5 males and 1 female. I want to trade/sell a male or 2 and pick up some more females. For me to go back in their viv and pull frogs D and F would be nearly impossible unless I've been taking pictures of them constantly to document what they look like. That is just too much work and people won't participate. _


 



sports_doc said:


> This is what killed the effort for me.


Just to be clear, this issue would have been easily remedied by managing that group of frogs as a colony... There was no need to be absolutely sure out of a group of frogs which were producing at any one time.. The software that TWI was using was (and still is even though TWI as I understand it is no longer going in that direction) able to handle this.. including if you weren't sure of the parents for several clutches and then for example confirmed which male was the sire... that could have been entered into the data and gone with those specific frogs.. or you could have continued with the colony numbering and not entered that data. Having taken care of a collection of literally hundreds of frogs of various life stages at a time documenting that information isn't difficult if you do it on a daily basis (often can be done in less than ten to 15 minutes) and keep up on it (and this ignores all of the other animal care, paperwork and duties I had at that time). 




sports_doc said:


> I tried. I started with registering only the ones I knew data on, like Understory frogs, and the imports from FLA.
> 
> But as groups were split, traded out male for female etc it became impossible to keep exact track.


Again, managing them as a colony would have made this simple... Female x removed from group..male added..... Colony split into two (or more groups) set up as 1.1. and 2.1 (at which point they could stay in the original colony number or at your discretion be set up into new colony groups... 

As a further note... frogs that people weren't sure of the origin could have also been handled in this way if people put down where they got the frogs.. over time, if more people added data on where and who they got the frogs, the threads would have started to connect allowing for lineages to be determined... 



sports_doc said:


> I dont know what it would take to resurrect the effort, but starting over with an entirely new system seems redundant.


To use the software requires a annual fee that while not too bad was a significant cost... and since very people were using the system (or overall showed that they really cared about the issue) the decision was made to go in a different direction with the ASN. It isn't dead, but it probably won't be offering a computerized data base to track the populations (both by degrees of kinship and/or specific degrees of relatedness as well as being able to monitor the registered population for declines..... 

Some clarification... 

Ed


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

frogfreak said:


> -snip- Try keeping track of 120+ adult frogs and several hundred froglets. -snip- Maybe you should be a little more grateful to the people that do this.


This is not a personal shot at you, so please do not be offended or feel that I am singling you out. 
Pehaps we should do more with less. 
Keeping and passing on some information about these animals will help facilitate the goals you set forth below.



frogfreak said:


> -snip- I want a stable population here that won't vanish as hobbyists disappear. We've lost many in the past and are forced to re-import from the USA. Not sustainable, risky and expensive.


I believe that the above statement is at the heart of what this "initiative" is about.

Respectfully,
Chris Sherman


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Sherman said:


> This is not a personal shot at you, so please do not be offended or feel that I am singling you out.
> Pehaps we should do more with less.
> Keeping and passing on some information about these animals will help facilitate the goals you set forth below.
> 
> ...


Hi Chris,

I know where my frogs are from. It just doesn't seem all that important to _most_ people buying them. If someone asks, they get the info.

The hobby is still in it's infancy here. There are many frogs that are taken for granted there, but have yet to touch Canadian soil.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

frogfreak said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> I know where my frogs are from. It just doesn't seem all that important to _most_ people buying them. If someone asks, they get the info.


Maybe its not important to most people because they haven't learned why its so important. Giving them the information without them asking might make them go "oh, so this is something I should keep track of?" instead of just "hey I got some pretty blue frogs"


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Glen,

You are in a very good position to lead by example. You know where your frogs are from, you are at the front of the infant Canadian hobby, and you are producing numbers.

More people might be interested in the information, and think a little deeper, if this information was offered to them. New hobbyists may not think to ask for this information when buying thier first frogs. There is plenty going in thier minds at that time, set-up, feeding, etc.. If they were given this information when they bought thier first frogs, they are more likely to ask for it on thier future purchases. 

The point of this thread is to identify the type of information that would be usefull and of interest to people and get that information into a format that is *easy* to voluntatily pass along.

Chris Sherman


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