# Yay first tad!



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

Hey guys, first post here! 
My green and black auratus was getting lonely so i bought him a new friend. come few weeks later, look what happened!










Only 1 of the 5 eggs made it but i'm happy for anything. Will it look more like green and black or green and bronze do you think? Now i just have to start selling them and ill be pro!


----------



## JJhuang (Feb 5, 2010)

congrats!!!!!


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks! Do you think it will have the black or the bronze of the parents? Or both? Has anyone done this mix? i can post pics if you want them


----------



## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

If I'm correct, you are mixing two diffrent kinds of Auratus.......? IE: Green and Black Auratus with a Green and Bronze Auratus.

-Mike-



puddles said:


> Thanks! Do you think it will have the black or the bronze of the parents? Has anyone done this mix? i can post pics if you want them


----------



## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

puddles said:


> Thanks! Do you think it will have the black or the bronze of the parents? Or both? Has anyone done this mix? i can post pics if you want them



Puddles... I think you just opened a big ol' can of worms!


Peace
Shawn


----------



## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

*facepalm*


----------



## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I would strongly suggest you search this site for past threads dealing with crossing different types of dart frogs. , Bill


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Grats on the tad, though!


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Personally I'm not quite sure this tad will make it. My first tad came from a similar situation, my leuc's first clutch, only one survived. He never ended up growing. Lived for two months, but didn't grow and eventually shriveled away.


----------



## MonkeyFrogMan28 (Feb 3, 2009)

puddles said:


> Now i just have to start selling them and ill be pro!


I don't think anyone would buy them and I advise not to due different auratas.


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

So i don't know what the fuss is about. They are the same species, so shouldn't i be allowed to breed them and sell them if i want? I am going to keep do this.

Any guesses on color?


----------



## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

puddles said:


> So i don't know what the fuss is about. They are the same species, so shouldn't i be allowed to breed them and sell them if i want? I am going to keep do this.
> 
> Any guesses on color?


Yes same species, but they are different morphs. Its concidered mixing and its not desireable. People probably will not buy the offspring from you. And I don't think anyone will have an idea about the color, members on this board don't find hybrids to be a good thing therefor it doesn't really happen much.


----------



## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

If you have any respect for this hobby and the people in it please stop breeding these frogs!!! Megan's (M_Rybecky) post sums it all up.

Also If you are looking to be in this hobby for a long time/being a "Pro" then making hybrids wont be making you very reputable.......

-Mike-


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

puddles said:


> So i don't know what the fuss is about. They are the same species, so shouldn't i be allowed to breed them and sell them if i want? I am going to keep do this.
> 
> Any guesses on color?


You're not mixing species, you _are_ mixing different localities. If you're honest about the parents people on this board probably won't buy the offspring from you. You'll probably have to sell to brand new people who won't know any better and will resent you when they do research and become informed. Not the best way to start a business....


----------



## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

puddles said:


> Now i just have to start selling them and ill be pro!


yeah! just what we needed....


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

My "do not buy from" list just got a little bigger


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

Can anyone give me a respectful explanation why breeding two frogs that are considered one species is bad "for this hobby" because they are from two different places? So far all i have received are general comments that express your distaste for what I have done, but do not provide any supporting information (look again, there is none!). I have searched for hybridization threads but they have so far spoken against mixing diff species, which i understand is bad. 

Why is this different from selective breeding of flowers or tomatoes to produce a desired effect? Is it because you have some grand but naive notion of hypothetically repopulating the wild if need to and think that keeping frogs true to nature will allow this (i read a thread of this)? If that is case, why does this forum advertize vendors who publicly sell wild-caught frogs that are critically endangered? If that is case, shouldn’t only keeping the strongest offspring be even more important, as introducing pure but weak frogs will do nothing? You should be criticizing the people who try to raise all tads into frogs, and supporting mixers who increase heterozygosity (which would survive in the wild if reintroduced- dalmatians or mutts off the street?).

Thank you so far for your opinions but i desire explanation. I will consider “do a forum search” posts as rude and as a sign that the poster does not personally know the answer. If you convince me what i am doing is wrong i will stop.


----------



## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

The difference is that these morphs arent living in one place mixing all them.

they are different morphs located at different places. they dont mix in the wild.


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

But i have proved that they would if they could. So why should we care where they are from?


----------



## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

This hobby is also about keeping the genetic lines that exist pure.

dart frogs are an endangered species. creating bastards all the way with noone being able to figure out which frog came from where will only make it worse.

imo a serious keeper needs to think about that.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Because this hobby is not like many of the plant hobbies, or reptile hobby, for that matter. The majority of us appreciate frogs that are as close to wild type as possible, much like the killifish hobby. Although the vast majority of the frogs in captivity will never be used to repopulate the wild, many of us appreciate the natural variation among populations of dart frogs. Thousands of years of evolution have gone into the natural development of the different localities - to many, mixing them is offensive. 

Just because something can be done does not mean it should. In the wild, many of the different localities are separated by various geologic features - mountain ranges, rivers, inhospitable terrain, etc - these prevent/severely limit gene flow. 

Also, just because those two localities of auratus are breeding in captivity does not mean that they would do so in the wild. A lack of suitable mates (ie other individuals which share the frog's color, pattern, shape, size, etc) may make the frog 'settle' for whatever member of the opposite sex is available.

I would not expect the majority of members on this board to be 'okay' with deliberately crossing different localities/morphs.


----------



## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

In this hobby, it is much more desirable to keep lines straight. It produces frogs that are desirable to many more people and will fetch a higher selling price. Most people have worked very hard to keep their frogs straight by breeding with frogs only from the same locale and species. By introducing a frog that has been bred by crossbreeding different localities, it can muddle the lines of other people when you sell them the frog without letting them know where it came from. 

Just because something CAN be done doesnt mean that it SHOULD be done. 

Continue crossbreeding localities for the purpose of resale and not only will you ruin your reputation, you most likely wont be able to GIVE away the frogs. 

Keep doing whatever you want, but keep in mind that what you're doing will earn you a lot of enemies in this hobby. Most strongly disagree with what you are doing and will be very vocal towards you in the end. 

Sorry for such a straight forward post, but beware that what you're doing will only earn you disrespect. 

-Matt


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

There is absolutely no possible way that "creating bastards" in the _hobby _will augment the endangeredness of the frogs in the _wild_. Unless you can think of a creative reason. By the way, Dendrobates auratus (Green And Black Poison Frog, Green Poison Frog)

So let us talk about why we should keep the genetics pure. This sounds like a reasonable goal; why should we do this? I see no existential reason for it.

EDIT: this was in reply to PumilioTurkey


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

McBobs said:


> In this hobby, it is much more desirable to keep lines straight. It produces frogs that are desirable to many more people and will fetch a higher selling price. Most people have worked very hard to keep their frogs straight by breeding with frogs only from the same locale and species. By introducing a frog that has been bred by crossbreeding different localities, it can muddle the lines of other people when you sell them the frog without letting them know where it came from.
> 
> Just because something CAN be done doesnt mean that it SHOULD be done.
> 
> ...


I see i need to quote who i am responding to; my previous post was directed at someone else.

So i gather from what you are saying, that

1. It is strictly about money
2. You think based on absolutely no information of my integrity that i will lie about the parents to get more money (think that is possible if the frog looks like two diff colors? I watch too much Maury to think i could get away with this)
3. I will make enemies for doing something with my own frogs because it disagrees with what they are doing with their own frogs?


----------



## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

It is not about money.

if that was the case frogs like "Ametopo" would sell all the time.


----------



## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

puddles said:


> There is absolutely no possible way that "creating bastards" in the _hobby _will augment the endangeredness of the frogs in the _wild_. Unless you can think of a creative reason. By the way, Dendrobates auratus (Green And Black Poison Frog, Green Poison Frog)
> 
> So let us talk about why we should keep the genetics pure. This sounds like a reasonable goal; why should we do this? I see no existential reason for it.


You're starting to get stubborn now. People in the hobby arent keeping lines true to the wild in hopes that we can repopulate the wild, but more because the vast majority of people have kept breeding straight in their collections. They have done this because there is no need to crossbreed animals when the genetic varieties and phenotypes are already stunning on their own. There is no need for crossbreeding two different localities when the offspring will most likely closely resemble one of the parents. It wont look much different in your case and all you will have done is create a frog that will ruin another persons future clutches. 

The people you sell your frogs to will have ruined clutches because to them, they will be exactly what you called them. Bastard froglets. The only way you'll ever be able to sell the froglets is by misrepresenting the froglets as to what the parents were that it was bred from. If you are actually honest about what you are selling, no one will buy them because it is an undesirable frog to a vast majority of people in the hobby. 

By breeding these frogs with an intent to sell froglets will not get you anywhere in a positive direction. The only positive thing that can happen is that you get some experience raising tadpoles to froglet stage. 

Once you finally decide to start breeding frogs from the same species and locale, will you finally be able to start selling frogs that are desirable to other people. 

Raise this froglet but dont intend on selling it. You really make people mad if you try. Take the experience that you can get and apply it towards breeding straight lines. THEN you can get experience selling/shipping/trading froglets. 

-Matt


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

zBrinks said:


> many of us appreciate the natural variation among populations of dart frogs. Thousands of years of evolution have gone into the natural development of the different localities - to many, mixing them is offensive.


THIS is the answer that makes sense to me. You have done a good job of expressing in words that it is more desirable to people to enjoy the product of nature's history rather than its present (i.e. appreciating natural variation instead of selecting for new colors and patterns).

Still though, this is a personal choice. I am allowed to do the second if i so desire, and you better believe i will always be up front with what i am doing. Why in hell would i jeopardize your hobby with mine? If anyone is my enemy for what i am doing, it is only out of irrational fear.


By the way- to whomever rated this thread 1 star (who cares?), i think thoughtful discussion is important and should be valued rather than scorned, especially in topics as critical as this one.


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

McBobs said:


> You're starting to get stubborn now. People in the hobby arent keeping lines true to the wild in hopes that we can repopulate the wild, but more because the vast majority of people have kept breeding straight in their collections. They have done this because there is no need to crossbreed animals when the genetic varieties and phenotypes are already stunning on their own. There is no need for crossbreeding two different localities when the offspring will most likely closely resemble one of the parents. It wont look much different in your case and all you will have done is create a frog that will ruin another persons future clutches.
> 
> The people you sell your frogs to will have ruined clutches because to them, they will be exactly what you called them. Bastard froglets. The only way you'll ever be able to sell the froglets is by misrepresenting the froglets as to what the parents were that it was bred from. If you are actually honest about what you are selling, no one will buy them because it is an undesirable frog to a vast majority of people in the hobby.
> 
> ...


I very much appreciate your passion and opinions. Please believe that i will never sell these froglets for any reason because i respect your hobby.

You are certainly right i was being stubborn! I was being stubborn in demanding a real answer, real proof; but not stubborn in what i was doing with the frogs.


----------



## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

puddles said:


> I see i need to quote who i am responding to; my previous post was directed at someone else.
> 
> So i gather from what you are saying, that
> 
> ...


1. It is not about money at all in any way shape or form. Only to you. YOU would be the one making money at the expense of selling subpar frogs.
2. The only way you will be able to sell the frogs is by lying about the parents. No one in this hobby will buy an auratus froglet that has been crossbred. This has nothing to do with your integrity as a person at all. Just stating that you won't be able to sell it without lying. 
3. You will not make enemies for doing what you want with your frogs. You WILL make enemies by selling a frog that has been crossbred. Once again, the only way you will be able to sell it is by lying about the morphs that it was bred from. 

The two frogs that you have right now are close enough to each other in looks that the babies will be hard to distinguish from others as the variations in different frogs can already look completely different on an individual basis. 

You make think this is rude for me to say, but deal with it. There is a TON of information if you search for it. EVERY question you have asked has been answered MANY MANY times if you look 10 seconds. EVERY question you have asked in this thread has been ANSWERED in this thread as well, but you cant seem to see that. 

-Matt


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

The vast majority of us on this board don't want to see these animals go the way of the leopard gecko or ball python.

Im going to echo ZBrinks with the "nature can do it best" attitude. 

Im not trying to tell you what to do, but I am saying you'll have a lot better luck selling your offspring by keeping yor lines true.

I think if you stick around in this hobby a while, you'll appeciate them for their natural beauty, and not for their "mix and match" potential


good luck with your 1st tad


----------



## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

I think that if you would like to continue breeding your frogs you should choose one and post it in the "trading post" section of this forum. You can see if anyone is willing to trade it for a mate for your other frog. Then you will have frogs that you can sell as you stated was your intension in your first post in this thread.


----------



## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

I totally agree with what M_Rybecky has just said.

Thats a cracking idea.

There are always going to be debates on the mixing of locales/species, and almost 100% of the members on here are apposed to it for many many reasons.

There is a plentiful amount of info on the mixing of darts on this forum, I don't understand how you haven't found any yet?

It really really isn't the way to go, you aren't doing the frogs any favours, or yourself.

We are all in it for the frogs, there are tonnes of people trying to pair up lone frogs at any given time, and will go to any lengths to get the exact same locale, from the exact same import dates etc, to keep everything as pure as can be.

If everyone settled for the closest look alike, the hobby would slowly but surely be doomed.

As you say, they are your frogs for you to do whatever you like with, but as I am sure you are aware now, there is no place for mixing in the hobby in all of our minds, and you will get a lot of opposition when you start a thread about your new hybrid tad.

Good luck with it anyhow, just don't be passing the offspring around to ANYBODY else but yourself.

Nature does it best.
Richie


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

puddles,

Do what you want. Say what you want. Believe what you want. Be as stubborn as you want. Truth be told, you might just be right. There may be no existential reason for us to wish to maintian pure bloodlines, there may exist no reason for us to be frustrated with you should you decide to try to sell you mixed froglet. All that might be true, but it's equally true that an overwhelming majority of the hobby believes this to be bastardizing frogs. And in the end, whether or not you understand those reasons doesn't matter because it's not going to change how we feel about the frog you created. 

In the end you've expressed a desire to sell frogs. If you mix frogs and try to sell the offspring someone who knows anything about the hobby will not buy them from you if you're upfront about where they came from. You've joined a public forum to connect with people who have a similar passion that you do, but by breeding mixed frogs you're going to find it very difficult to connect with many people on this board. Understanding the reasons behind these facts doesn't really matter because understanding isn't going to change anything, what matters is that those are the facts. You can either continue doing what you're doing and find yourself both isolated and unable to meet your goals (going pro, or even selling a single froglet), or you can listen to what people are telling you and fix what you're doing. Personally, I really don't care which you choose, the choice is _yours_ to make.

I'm sure that doesn't really answer any of your questions, but I've had this conversation enough times to think that if I gave you a real answer you probably wouldn't listen to it. If you do a search on the board you'll find plenty of threads about mixing species _and_ same species different localities. I know because I've been a part of plenty of them. You can take that as rude if you want, but it's not meant as rude, it's just a fact.


----------



## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

M_Rybecky said:


> I think that if you would like to continue breeding your frogs you should choose one and post it in the "trading post" section of this forum. You can see if anyone is willing to trade it for a mate for your other frog. Then you will have frogs that you can sell as you stated was your intension in your first post in this thread.


But that's too easy...it is obvious we are dealing with someone that just wants to stir up a ruckus and 'attempt' to change the way we maintain this hobby. Puddles is against overwhelming odds here and will probably be out of the hobby in a few months. Let's just hope his arautus don't make it into anyone elses hands.


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Congratulations on the tad. I remember my first breeding with great fondness. It's sad that some other hobbyists seem set on raining on your little parade, but I think you should see this as a learning opportunity. There are bullies everywhere and you eventually learn to stand up to them.

I keep mixed morph tintorius in my collection and have been up front about this from the begining. They are MY frogs and are available for viewing at my home anytime (aka, I have nothing to hide). If someone has a problem with that, it really is their problem (not mine). I know I am a good hobbyist.

Good luck with the tad, Richard.


----------



## puddles (Mar 18, 2010)

Hey guys, I'll just say one last thing in this thread.

First, thanks for all of your opinions, both discouraging and encouraging. I appreciate your passion and honesty.


I understand that you want to maintain a pure and unadulterated gene pool in what is one of the most fantastic hobbies in the world. Many people have worked hard for years to get where we are now and it would sure suck to be one of the people to screw it up for everyone. I know there is no way i can convince you with 100% certainty that my hybrid(s) will not recirculate, but if it helps i will at least reassure you once again that i am trustworthy and i will never seek to gain financially from selling crossbred animals. I have intimate ties to a research institute that will no doubt take these animals on permanent breeding ban should misfortune befall me.


Don't let your passions die- but maybe be a bit nicer to the next clueless bloke  _(even if they are against overwhelming odds at lasting more than a few months)_
You never know who will turn out to be the next Patrick Nabors.

-Andrew


----------



## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Congrats puddles on your breeding its always exciting to get your first eggs... i came into this frog hobby from the reptile hobby where crossing morphs and localitys was perfectly fine creating new desired "designer" morphs people would all go crazy for. i came into this hobby and was quickly taken under the wing by some locals and they showed me the good practices of this fine hobby... although i do not own any mixed tanks or cross bred frogs i firmly believe that they are your frogs and you should do as you please with them.. and if you feel like you did nothing wrong and would like to post your frogs for then by all means do so.. and who ever purchases from you is their choice just always be honest of your cross breeds and keep detailed records.. but please understand that this hobby has its do's and donts like all hobbys and its up to you to follow or not.

these people that have all posted happen to all be good people in the hobby and are just simply trying to point you in the right direction to make your frogging expierence a little more easier. by adopting their practices you will be able to buy sell and trade with your fellow froggers with ease and create a good rep for your self.

Richard does keep cross bred Tincs and there was a huge issue about it.. and to spite what people may think of him he happens to be a great keeper and breeder of tincs and happens to know a great deal about his frogs. With his hand in keeping cross breeds hes still able to function in this hobby.. so my advice to you is to do what you feel is right i just hope you make a responsible choice. It wouldnt be the end of the world to propperly pair your auratus up and start producing pure offspring and get the full expierence of this hobby.

hope you found this helpful. sorry for any typos its late and im tired. enjoy.


----------



## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Hey everyone! After PM'ing back and forth with puddles, I can see where he is coming from. 

At first, he was just excited to have found his first clutch of baby dart frogs (whether it was crossbred or not). After finding this website and it's wealth of information, sharing his recent discovery seemed like the logical choice. A lot of people, INCLUDING *ME*, jumped the gun and kinda chewed some butt for another hobbiest wishing to sell a froglet that was undesirable to the hobby. 

After a few unkind words and then immediate apologies, puddles understands where the majority of the hobby stands and agrees with the rest of us that selling a crossbred froglet would be undesirable. Rearing a tadpole to froglet is invaluable experience (I think we can all agree on that) and after puddles has morphed his first froglet, breeding true to species and localities is next on his list. No selling of crossbred froglets at all. 

I think we can set this issue to rest and if Andrew reads this, I think he'll agree.

-Matt


----------



## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

I honestly have no problem with people doing whatever they want within the walls of their own home. I'm not going to discourage you for what you have done, but I am going to put it in perspective for you. Perhaps your actions will have no ill consequence on the hobby, but what happens when your frogs keep breeding and you end up with 50 mixed frogs that nobody will buy. You will have no choice but to either keep expanding size of vivariums to accommodate them, or you will have to start killing them which. In the end, my real problem with mixing frogs isn't that its bad for the hobby. My concern is that otherwise healthy frogs will have to be killed off because you will no longer be able to care for the growing numbers of them. Please don't take this as rude, it is just my opinion on the subject.


----------



## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

yumpster said:


> I honestly have no problem with people doing whatever they want within the walls of their own home. I'm not going to discourage you for what you have done, but I am going to put it in perspective for you. Perhaps your actions will have no ill consequence on the hobby, but what happens when your frogs keep breeding and you end up with 50 mixed frogs that nobody will buy. You will have no choice but to either keep expanding size of vivariums to accommodate them, or you will have to start killing them which. In the end, my real problem with mixing frogs isn't that its bad for the hobby. My concern is that otherwise healthy frogs will have to be killed off because you will no longer be able to care for the growing numbers of them. Please don't take this as rude, it is just my opinion on the subject.



im going to have to say i disagree... i dont think killing a healthy frog is a option for ANY of us regaurdless if its a cross breed or not... and 2 i firmly believe there are people on and off the board that WILL purchase what we call "undesired" frogs. within this past year i can say i have come across many photos of "accidental" cross breeds on and off the board and i will say a majority of them are actually very cool looking with nice color and pattern. and i cant say i was never tempted to purchase them.

its his first tad.. and the frogs first time breeding.. i doubt even by next yr he will have 50 healthy froglets. so i dont think there is anything to worry about especially if he understands the boards views on what he is doing.. lets just nicely educate him and point him in the right direction and welcome a fellow frogger to the hobby


----------



## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

Don't misunderstand me. I am in no way condoning killing undesired frogs, but I feel that some people may take that course of action if they become overwhelmed. I think it is a possibility that he could end up with 50 frogs that nobody wants (I have 25 tadpoles right behind me from just a few months of breeding so it is definitely possible). It would be even worse if uninformed people actually DID want those frogs. Without knowing better they could continue mixing and selling, mixing and selling, etc. until the situation is much worse.

I have no ill feeling for him or what has happened. There was no way of knowing any better, but I do feel it is better to pull and dispose of any future eggs instead of taking a risk on becoming swamped with mixed frogs. The purpose of my first post wasn't to condone killing the mixed frogs. It was to provide insight so that would not even have to be an option in the future.


----------



## The3rdMan (Sep 11, 2008)

way to go...looks nice


----------

