# 2nd Fecals came back with lots!



## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

i did a fecal exam on a female pumilio almirante i have, this was just after the male died.
it came back normal with no parasites.

i then bought a replacement male almirante.
and i also bought a pair of bastimentos for a new viv i built.
I also have 2 other frogs i never did fecals on (>_<)

i decided i wanted all my frogs checked and found a good exotic vet in my area who does the examination right there for me.

i have all of the frogs in quarantine, and sent fecals of ALL of them in this time.

and here are the results :

Bastimentos- Amoeba , cestode, trombiculid mite
almirantes- amoeba 
caucheros- amoeba, nematode (unkown id)

ive been asked to weight them and he will provide medication. 

Id just like to get some more info on what the proper treatment procedures are for these problems, just to double check. i dont want to treat my frogs without knowing for sure im doing the right thing.

until now , i didnt realize the importance of doing fecal exams before noticing a "problem" with a frog. And on top of that to do multiple exams because the first one i did came back clean.
I would have avoided at least 1 death so far if i did fecal exams right away.
but it definatly feels better knowing , and the rest of my frogs seem ok right now (hard to beleive with all the parasites found), i just hope the treatment works in time, and that i can treat them properly.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

How fresh were the feces that you sent in to be tested? Also, if you don't mind my asking, who did you buy these frogs from? I've seen Caucheros and Almirantes for sale on Kingsnake classifieds that were "farm raised" unquarantined and untreated. Of course, that information was in the small print. I'm guessing you bought them through that source?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Did you send them to a "dart" vet? A lot of things they find they will tell you are harmless to the frogs, and any treatments for anything needing to be treated will usually be recommended right away without any more info from you needed -


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## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

there is no "dart" vet that i know of anywhere in toronto. this one i went to is an "exotic" vet.

im sure theres many people on this forum who have more experiance treating darts than most exotic vets do. which is why im asking a second opinion.

he did the fecals and his secretary gave me the note of what was found. i havent spoken to him directly yet, but i have an appointment tommorow.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

In a Metropolitan area the size of Toronto, I would bet there are vets that know darts. Try checking to see if there are any Canadian dart societies I'm sure they can point you in the right direction.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah I would suggest doing a search on here for Dr Frye, Dr Wright, if you can mail to the US, there's a possibility you would get a different recommendation, or maybe a more precise diagnosis.


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## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

I would rather deal with people in my area that i can go visit.

But i will do what it takes to keep my frogs healthy... even if it means paying for another fecal exam through someone on this board. i just need a good reason, and some info so i can make that desicion.


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## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

and yes this exotic vet has dealt with darts before , done fecals and prescribed meds. its not something new to him. 

its Kingsdale exotic animal hospital. 
links animal hospital was reccommended to me by someone on canadart, but kingsdale does the fecals onthe spot(half the price too). they seemed more knowledgable about dart frogs and more prepared. so i decided to go with them. 
at least until i gather more info on the treatment methods used by people here, compared to his treatment reccomendations, which i will get tommorow. 

any advice or info is much appreciated.

fecals results positive for :amoeba /cestode,nematode,trombiculid mite


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Did you remove the fecals from the tank or were they collected from fresh fecals deposited on damp paper towels that had been recently changed? 

Ed


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## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

they were in QT tanks with damp paper towel, some leaf litter, vine cuting and a coco hut.(i used a few leafs and a plant cutting from a planted tank i have on the side.)

yesterday i cleaned the QT tanks and dont have anythign but damp towel and plastic hides, peice of banana and 10 in flies each.

im going to bring the newest fecals with me tommorow for a re-check before getting any medication..


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogbog said:


> they were in QT tanks with damp paper towel, some leaf litter, vine cuting and a coco hut.(i used a few leafs and a plant cutting from a planted tank i have on the side.)
> 
> yesterday i cleaned the QT tanks and dont have anythign but damp towel and plastic hides, peice of banana and 10 in flies each.
> 
> im going to bring the newest fecals with me tommorow for a re-check before getting any medication..


Are the frogs losing weight or seem sluggish? Is there any sign of blood in their fecals?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogbog said:


> they were in QT tanks with damp paper towel, some leaf litter, vine cuting and a coco hut.(i used a few leafs and a plant cutting from a planted tank i have on the side.)
> 
> yesterday i cleaned the QT tanks and dont have anythign but damp towel and plastic hides, peice of banana and 10 in flies each.
> 
> im going to bring the newest fecals with me tommorow for a re-check before getting any medication..


If you used materials from an established tank then that is potentially the source of the trombiculid mite (assuming it didn't come from a feeder culture) and depending on where the fecal was deposited a potential false positive for the nematodes. Free living nematodes can result in a positive fecal if the person who is reading the fecal is unaware that there was the potential for contamination. 

Ed


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## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Is there any sign of blood in their fecals?


Is this why some fecals look reddish? If so, never wouldve have figured that was blood. Ive never heard of this before. Why would the blood be present?


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## fido (Sep 29, 2008)

Just a hunch but red=fly eyes usually.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fido said:


> Just a hunch but red=fly eyes usually.


This is certainly one of the things that can turn a fecal reddish.. Fruit fly eyes can contain a red pterin pigment. Other possibilities include the use of a supplement that contains astaxanthin or canthaxanthin or other red carotenoids as unabsorbed carotenoids are excreted in the feces or potentially blood. A fecal exam is the only way to be absolutely sure of the source. 

Ed


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

a Vertigo Guy said:


> Is this why some fecals look reddish? If so, never wouldve have figured that was blood. Ive never heard of this before. Why would the blood be present?


I actually meant the presense of white blood cells(sorry for the lack of clarification) this can usually only be seen under a microscope.


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## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

i brought newer fecals samples in along with my visit today.
we couldnt find any mite or nematodes in the newer samples of all frogs.

btw the this is from dr.sowerby of kingsdale animal hospital in king city. 
He has actually only seen a few darts , more so this year than in the last 10years al together. But he has seen many tree frogs /toads and he keeps bearded dragons himself so i felt pretty comfortable knowing that.

the mite an nematode were seen fully formed zipping around fast in the poop, no eggs were seen and with the possibility of contamination from the leafs i used in the first QT fecals, he concluded they both were "most likely" false positive results.

the cestode and the amoeba on the other hand were found again in the new fecals i bought with me today.

treatment: 
cestode: Ivomec 0.05cc 2micrograms/cc to skin once, and repeat in 14 days.
amoeba: Metronidazole 0.05 cc 0.5mg/cc once daily for 3 days.

i didnt ask about finding whitebloodcells this time but ill call and find out , im sure he would have told me though if it were an indication of somthing else being wrong.


im not going to start treatment until i hear some repsonses , i hope this is the right way to treat for this.

thank you everyone for helping me out with this , much apreciated.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not sure why you wouldn't start treatment since your vet has experience with exotics including frogs. Both of those medications have been used for years in treatment anurans including dendrobatids. The use of ivermectin is actually a good choice of wormer as it actually allows for a very targeted dosage. 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed--I like your new : 
A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."

I realize my comment is off topic...couldn't help myself...


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## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

i guess im a little paronoid, especially when it comes to doctors i was mis-treated by my neurologist for 2 years, wrong diagnosis, wrong meds, wrong operations. 
so i always feel the need to double check no matter what someones tittle is. because people...will always make mistakes.


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## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

but anyway, i did start treatment. just wanted a second opinion at least. 

im to bring in a post treatment - fecal sample in 3 weeks and well see how it goes. 

thanks again everyone.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogbog said:


> i guess im a little paronoid, especially when it comes to doctors i was mis-treated by my neurologist for 2 years, wrong diagnosis, wrong meds, wrong operations.
> so i always feel the need to double check no matter what someones tittle is. because people...will always make mistakes.


Then you should consider getting a second opinion from another vet instead of relying on random voices from the internet. 

Ed


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## frogbog (Jul 7, 2011)

ya id love a second opinion from another vet also


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogbog said:


> ya id love a second opinion from another vet also


Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital


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