# Smuggling



## kyle1745

With all of the recent talks I decided to gather some information from a good source Mark Pepper. As always Mark responded with a quick detailed run down on some of what he has seen in Peru, and informed me there may also be a article on http://www.dendrobates.org/ soon as well.

Below is an edited response from Mark Pepper and the pictures he sent along with it. 

I want to publicly thank Mark for his work and his continued efforts. 



> Thanks for lettting me know about the thread. The idea of valiant smugglers following the chainsaws and the fire selflessly rescuing doomed frogs is laughable at best.
> 
> As long have these frogs have value, they will be smuggled. Reticulatus and ventrimaculatus are two of the most commonly smuggled frogs from peru. They leave I would say fairly regularly with fish shipments from Iquitos. These are packed several dozen or more to container and hidden amongst tropical fish. Late last year for example a fish exporter from iquitos, (also a dendroboard member) was apprehended with a mix of around 400 ventris and retics hidden amongst his fish. This incident was this particular individuals second time being caught. You have to wonder how many other times has he not been caught.
> *
> What people need to do is to realize that for every smuggled frog that hits the market alive, probably 10 die in the process.* I can't speak for what goes on in Colombia of Panama, but in Peru, these smuggled frogs pass through several careless hands before they make it to Europe...yes the reality is the VAST majority of these frogs land in Europe first...These people involved in the large scale smuggling, are in most cases not doing the collecting themselves. Generally someone arrives at a village and puts essentially a bounty on the frogs, the local campesinos then head out and collect every frog they can find, stuffing them into empty soda bottles. Here they sit in these bottles often for days, until they get around to building a makeshift pen, which they are crowded into, most often without food, while they wait for the buyer to return, they are paid an average of a dollar per frog, and then they are either smuggled out in luggage or send out of Peru with fish. The fish method is most common.
> 
> I have spent the majority of the last 3.5 years in peru, out in the field, and what we are seeing and hearing is more and more of this. *The solution is as simple as it is complex: as simple as refusing to buy these frogs, as complex as is human nature, or at least the nature of the collector to desire the rare an elusive.*
> 
> There has been a literal plague of smuggled Peruvian frogs hitting the European market the last few years, retics, ventris, vanzo's, (the Divoseen frogs don't change the fact that this frog has been hit hard by smugglers the last couple of years) various lamasi, most notably the orange and red ones, uakarii, various imitators, and most recently, the orange and blue imitator and the orange and blue fantasticus. The latter two are a prime example of why precise locality data is not published online anymore or distributed with these frogs. Many or these frogs are now in the North American hobby, exported as largely as CB from Europe. One is as bad as the other.
> 
> I do agree its unfair to paint the entire European hobby with one brush, there are indeed many concerned hobbyists in Europe, as many as there are in NA. The problem is that there really is a ready and willing market for these frogs on either side of the Atlantic. *The only real workable solution comes down to the level of the individual, be they in Europe or North America or Asia, making educated and informed decisions about the
> frogs they buy.*
> 
> The pictures of the smuggling station from the locality of the red blue fantasticus, these frogs hit Germany for I believe the first time in November last year.
> 
> I have written and article with Evan and Jason that should go on http://www.dendrobates.org/ hopefully very soon, much more through than what i wrote here.


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## jmcc000

Very nice post. Thanks Kyle for getting with Mark for this info.
Hopefully this will open some eyes. 
Jason


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## sbreland

Man, those little guys look rough. No wonder the mortality rate is so high. Sad to hear that the smugglers have already hit the orange and ble imitator and fants but I guess that is to be expected. Good to know what is going on down there and seeing things first hand must be much worse.


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## markpulawski

It costs 100 frogs to get 10 to the hobby.....sickening! Done right sustainable harvest. It is obvious to me that several of these frogs will only exist in collections in the near future as the natives have no understanding of wiping out locale specific populations of species. Very sad indeed!
Mark


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## Afemoralis

markpulawski said:


> ...as the natives have no understanding of wiping out locale specific populations of species.


At least the natives are doing it to keep thier families alive. First world hobbiests on the other hand, are doing it from outright greed.

PLEASE INCLUDE A "WHAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT" segment in upcoming posts- It would help to know how to know what we shouldn't be buying- if that makes any sense. 

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## markpulawski

My comments intent was that teaching the local people to sustain the populations would bring a continuous income stream. I will never understand what it is like to try and feed a starving family (at least I hope that is the case).


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## kyle1745

I think funding some of the farm projects is a start, as least in those cases much of the money is going to go back to the local countries. I am also looking to setup a donations soon to help support some of these efforts. One thing I am already working on is setting up new items in the store with 50% of the profits going to these causes.


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## Roadrunner

first off, once they are here in small #`s there are enough that we wouldn`t be buying them after one import at prices of $100 or more. Someone would start breeding them and drop the price.
I have sold terribilis to zoos who can`t display them as, although they came in legally from europe, they can`t find where they were ever legally taken from columbia(if i have it correct). 

Everyone wants rare frogs over here and then bashes the other side of the pond because they have them, but when they come to the us as cb, like the galacts and terribilis, people will scoop them up. or people can support mark and inibico and sndf and keep track of their bloodlines so we know which frogs which are most likely legal and which are not. This is another area frogtracks will come in very handy. 
colons, bastis,nancies and cayo de aqua to name a few came in from europe and were most likely descendants of illegal frogs and they are some of the highest price frogs around, except the bastis. 
Believe me, I`m not trying to defend smuggling I`m just trying to find a way to better get hold of the situation and it seems asking for frogtracks codes is the only way as it`s verified back to the point of import in the best situation. 
If we put the stop to buying offspring from frogs originating from illegal europe(legally they get all the same stuff we get over here), they won`t be so sought after and people will have to work harder to "launder" lines and they won`t command the hi prices. Although it hurts the gene pool available, maybe these "rare" frogs shouldn`t be as highly sought after and we shouldn`t accept the high prices of these. Frogs of "value" should be the ones tracked back to import and hi on the list toward legal wc. 
It`s been proven quite well that you vote w/ your dollar. you can make whatever laws you want and have as much enforcement but unless WE devalue animals of questionable origin(not boycott them and shoot oursleves in the foot to loosing diverse bloodlines) but make it much less profitable to go thru illegal lines, we aren`t really doing anything but venting our rage over it. 
For example, reginas and matechos, were any of these ever legally exported or did they all come from (illegal)europe? I personally dont know. 
I believe europe only because they were never widely available by any import I know of. Yet these are 2 of the most expensive morphs of tinctorius on the market. Sure they are beautiful but a good looking citronella is pretty impressive too but they go for 1/2 to 1/5th the price of regina and matechos. 
Put your money where your mouth is and spread the word that we wont be part of it. 
Ask for your frogtracks #`s when buying a frog. Think of it, if you can produce 5-8 tincs a week worth $250ea. most people could quit their job. 
Our market of frogs values smuggled the highest. If it`s rare it`s most likely of smuggled origin. Until the hobby changes to devalue rare frogs this will never change. We fuel smuggling, we have to enforce the laws ourselves. At least if someone came up to you on the street w/ a vanzolini and offered it to you, you could say, "ya, I`ll give you $25 for it." and they reply are you crazy, this is one of the rarest morphs out there" you can say, do you have your frogtracks codes(and you can check the website). no? well it`s most likely illegal i can give you $20 for it". At least that`s what I`d love to see. 
I know it`s much more complicated than that but it`s a start.


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## steelcube

They need to feed the frogs... Looks like they haven't eaten for a week.


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## bluedart

Smuggling is a sickening trade. We don't condone it. Can we agree on that?

Good.

Let's also get some other points that we can agree on: 
Smuggling doesn't only involve the collection of high dollar frogs to sell for 100's of dollars. It involves the collection of anything that can be turned into a quick buck, be it mystis or leucs, histos or auratus. We can't keep reliving the fact that only RARE frogs are smuggled and sold for 100's. All sorts of different frogs are smuggled, exported, imported, and sold. 

The people who are the root of the smuggling are the natives. Intentionally? Not likely. They do what they can to feed their families. They are poor. They are often unsure where their next meals will come from. When some "rich" people come up to them offering 2 dollars for a FROG (remember--these frogs are often as commonplace to them as american toads and green treefrogs are to me) they're going to jump at that. They create a livlihood for themselves, while at the same time serving as vessles for smugglers. Therefore, we can also galvanize the idea that we know, atleast to some small degree, about the base of the smuggling. 

We also should reinstate the common belief that something NEEDS to be done about it. Not should. Not might. NEEDS. Now. It won't happen over night, but think about the things that we've been able to put together as a community within a week or two as a community. Hurricane Katrina decimated the homes of fellow froggers, eliminating most traces of many collections. What did we do? We sent feeders, plants, frogs even--all because we are united in our cause. We are one of the closest communities of mostly strangers out there. When Operation Atelopus needed supplies in S.A., we jumped at the opportunity to help them by pledging money and supplies, and ultimately sending them a much needed care package to aid in their efforts. We joined as a community. Is there any excuse whatsoever as to why we can't ban together now? Do we have any good reason excusing this problem of smuggling that has been occuring for ages already? I don't think that much can be said other than ignorance and laziness. That includes most of us.

We've established that smuggling occurs and that we loathe it. We've even had intensive discussion as to where a majority of it happens--Europe. That's irrefutable (we're not trying to generalize the European hobby, but things are fairly interconnected there and it is veribly a seperate hobby from the North American one). Now we need to propose what we can do to fix it. My proposal? I believe that frogtracks is a great start. Register frogs -now-. Is the system perfect? No. Could it revolutionize the hobby and begin to buffer the smugglers? Yes. Maybe we need a new system, but frogtracks is what we have to start with. I think that somebody needs to get Robb in on this thread... I'll shoot him an e-mail. 

Now is the time for change. 

Now is our turn to actively take action against the smugglers. Not physical action, but collective action--group action--as a hobby to fight it. Oftentimes they have what we want. Do we have the willpower to fight it?


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## edwardsatc

Well said Josh. I agree 100%. A community approach is the only way to go.

Frogtracks has been mentioned many times. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see where this would be useful in the fight against smuggling. Feel free to fill me in.

Maybe Marcos or Brent or anyone else on the steering comittee at Treealkers can fill us in on how the fight against smuggling fits into their conservation efforts.


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## bluedart

edwardsatc said:


> Well said Josh. I agree 100%. A community approach is the only way to go.
> 
> Frogtracks has been mentioned many times. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see where this would be useful in the fight against smuggling. Feel free to fill me in.
> 
> Maybe Marcos or Brent or anyone else on the steering comittee at Treealkers can fill us in on how the fight against smuggling fits into their conservation efforts.


Frogtracks would help us track lineages, and therefore the original origins of our frogs. That way, when we buy frogs in the future, if they have a frogtracks number we'll be able to trace and ultimately know (hopefully) where they came from in the first place, helping to weed out frogs smuggled after the fact. Sure, smuggled frogs around currently may be added, and granted many people have smuggled frogs and don't know it. If we can establish a vast base line NOW, encouraging all of our hobbyists and major producers to register, then in the future we can refuse frogs without "papers". This refusal should help discourage smugglers and their attempts. 

It's really the *idea* behind frogtracks that I'm advocating, and it needs to be explored. It's the IDEA that if we register what we have now, that we can fight smuggling in the future. It's the idea that we can isolate and highlight those frogs without papers, without lineages, as undesireable and possibly not legit. This could prove a complicated process, and therefore turn some people off to the idea. But that's why we're a community--we work together for a common cause. 

Our hobby isn't merely about keeping pet frogs. I was thinking about this today, and now is just as good of a time as any to put it to words. As dart frog hobbyists, we're not merely pet keeper. We're research scientists, constantly figuring out new ways to improve breeding, discovering better culturing methods, even venturing to explore how certain chemicals interact with organic compounds. We're geneologists, tracking lineages and pairing animals to increase genetic diversity. We're botanists, cultivating thousands of various plants and exploring their captive needs. We're carpenters, building and designing masterpieces. But most of all, we're conservationists. We keep these animals not only to hold a little piece of the rainforest in our homes, but to preserve a disappearing piece of our world. They connect us to places on earth we may never see. They force us to realize that our children may never see these organisms in the wild. They encourage us to advocate the protection of this diverse ecosystem we call South America. This discussion about smuggling isn't merely a conversation about protecting dart frogs. It personifies the human exploitation of the entire region--frogs, trees, land, people. So sure, we address our own speck on the face of the world--our frogs. But really we're a part of something greater. We're a part of this interconnected global ideal that humans are ultimately ruining our earth. Our home.

Sorry for that rant... I'll stop now. 

Back to smuggling!


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## sbreland

Just thought, although probably not a credible one. Many have said that the natives are the root of th problem because they collect these frogs for the promise of money. What if we were able to change their mind by offering them money ourselves? It would be a difficult venture because it would involve getting people down there like Mark to undertake a huge responsibility, but it might at least help. Instead of the smugglers offering the natives $1 per frog, what if we (I use that term generally) were to offer them say $100 to contact the authorities when a smuggler approaches them? Instead of seeing a small sum they see big numbers and might actually help to turn in the smugglers if the money made it worth it to them. Like I said, this would have to be a grassroots type of thing down in Peru and other places, but if Mark and othes like him were willing to try it ad we were to fund it, it might make a dent. It wouldn't take catching too many smugglers for the word to get out that it is no longer safe to work like that. We as a hobby could set up a donation fund that would fund the reward bank so it wasn't coming out of Mark or anyone elses pocket. I would like to liken it to a crimestoppers thing but on a frog level. I realize this is probably either been tried or is too far fetched to work, but the idea hit me and it seems the best place to start is at the source.


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## Afemoralis

How about the red/blue fantasticus as a starting point? We know this frogs were smuggled- right? That sure appears to be photo-documented, but please correct me if I'm wrong. So they've made it to Germany as of last November. So how do we as a community stand up and say that these frogs are not welcome in the US hobby? Eventually, someone is going to bring some over (if they haven't already). How do we go about 'de-valuing' smuggled populations?

The only idea that I've had so far: Start a Sticky under the CareSheets on "DONT BUY THESE FROGS!" or somesuch- we could ask the dendrobates.org fellas for a photo and any info they have on when/how the frogs were smuggled out. Many of you seem tied into this information as well. I think this could work to some degree for populations/species that are fairly distinctive such as the red/blue fantasticus. I still don't know how to deal with the forms that are already present, and even prevalent in the hobby, such as D. auratus. It still relies on the will of folks to do the right thing, but at least it would be a starting point.

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## Afemoralis

With regards to Stace's idea above, I think it is kindhearted- and worth a try- but at least in Southern Peru where I worked the "authorities" are far, far, away and poorly funded to combat organized First-world smugglers. You have to think of it as kindof a 'wild-west'. It is decidedly a frontier mentality where survival, by hook or crook, is the name of the game. Manu National Park for example, has about 12 guards for an area the size of Massachusetts. And they often don't have gas to patrol. Perhaps the situation is different farther north in Peru- but I doubt it. 

I think as far as the local people are concerned, the frog farming or ranching, is a truly sustainable option. Good examples have come from butterfly ranching in other tropical regions of the third world. The demand for butterflies, while rather small, is constant- they don't breed as well as the frogs do in captivity...

I don't know. But I'm heartened by the fact so many folks are avidly entering this conversation on the matter. 

-Afemoralis


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## edwardsatc

Afemoralis said:


> The only idea that I've had so far: Start a Sticky under the CareSheets on "DONT BUY THESE FROGS!" or somesuch- we could ask the dendrobates.org fellas for a photo and any info they have on when/how the frogs were smuggled out. Many of you seem tied into this information as well. I think this could work to some degree for populations/species that are fairly distinctive such as the red/blue fantasticus.


Good idea. Perhaps an educational narrative in "Good Threads to read for beginners" on smuggling, the effects of smuggling, etc..



> I still don't know how to deal with the forms that are already present, and even prevalent in the hobby, such as D. auratus. It still relies on the will of folks to do the right thing, but at least it would be a starting point.


There is definitely a dilemma here. I'm sure that many who do not condone smuggling have bought frogs that have long been established in the hobby only to realize later on that they have shady origins. I have faced this dilemma in my own collection. 

I don't think there is much, if anything, we can do about frogs that are abundant and well established in the hobby, but we can surely reject ones that aren't and refuse to deal with anyone who deals in obviuosly questionable animals.


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## Ed

snip "Thanks for lettting me know about the thread. The idea of valiant smugglers following the chainsaws and the fire selflessly rescuing doomed frogs is laughable at best. "

In other parts of the world, the movement of logging not only facilitates illegal collection and harvesting of plants and animals but is actively used to not only gain access to the animals but to transport the animals to market or export. Smugglers actively use the logging to maximize thier profits.
Using this as a rational to justify the collection of animals which are then smuggled is just a feel good excuse. 

One of the problems is that different countries handle confiscated animals in different fashions. In some of the European countries it is possible for the animals to be released to registered breeders who then can breed and sell of the offspring of those frogs thus legitimizing them in that country. Different countries can either accept or deny the import of those animals based on how they view the method in which they were handled. 
This is the path by which terriblis were brought into the country. 
Depending on the country in which this occurs it should be dealt with in the following treaty
http://www.actionbioscience.org/biodive ... ollin.html )
(the USA signed but it hasn't been ratified as of yet, so it doesn't apply at the moment, but if I understand it correctly, ratification causes it to go back to the signing (maybe Homer can clear that up point). 

Ed


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## bluedart

sbreland said:


> Just thought, although probably not a credible one. Many have said that the natives are the root of th problem because they collect these frogs for the promise of money. What if we were able to change their mind by offering them money ourselves? It would be a difficult venture because it would involve getting people down there like Mark to undertake a huge responsibility, but it might at least help. Instead of the smugglers offering the natives $1 per frog, what if we (I use that term generally) were to offer them say $100 to contact the authorities when a smuggler approaches them? Instead of seeing a small sum they see big numbers and might actually help to turn in the smugglers if the money made it worth it to them. Like I said, this would have to be a grassroots type of thing down in Peru and other places, but if Mark and othes like him were willing to try it ad we were to fund it, it might make a dent. It wouldn't take catching too many smugglers for the word to get out that it is no longer safe to work like that. We as a hobby could set up a donation fund that would fund the reward bank so it wasn't coming out of Mark or anyone elses pocket. I would like to liken it to a crimestoppers thing but on a frog level. I realize this is probably either been tried or is too far fetched to work, but the idea hit me and it seems the best place to start is at the source.


The idea crossed my mind, but how effective could it really be? The natives could surely realize that they can play both ends of the field, collecting the frogs for the smugglers, getting money, and then turning the smugglers in. Or the smugglers could offer more money. Our ultimate goal is the safety of the frogs, not the justification of the smugglers. I do think, however, that communication with the natives needs to be increased. How does China control the populus? Through grassroots level communication. We don't want to control the natives, but we certainly want to influence them.


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## Ed

actually as the Zoo and conservation organizations have discovered the hard way, if you do not involve the locals any conservation program is doomed to fail. 

The problem is that most of the locals earn so little (for example the Gross national Income per person in Peru is $1,869.56/year. (or just over $5 (american) day) that a dollar a frog is a huge amount of money... Outside of the collectors paying them for the frogs, the frogs have little or no value to the people on ground (check out the yearly incomes on 
http://www.nationmaster.com click on the economy button and then scroll down to the GDP per capita button). 

The natives are not the root of the problem as the vast majority are at subsistance level and have little or no other prospects to earn extra income. The root of the problem is the demand for the item outside of the country.... As long as there is a demand that can be supplied by a smuggled product then this form of exploitation will continue to occur. 
Flooding the market with a inexpensive animal hasn't worked to stop the smuggling of auratus.... 

Ed


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## sbreland

I don't know that my idea would be effective, but I'd rather say it was tried and failed rather than say it was a weak idea nad never worked. ZThe natives couldn't play both ends because the stipualtion could alway be placed that they don't get their rewards if they collect the frogs. Basically, the smugglers show up and say I want 100 of these and leave for a few days to be back on Monday. The natives then must contact the authorities and tell them when the pickup is supposed to be and after the bust is made the authorities make the bust. One problem is what Sea (Afemoralis) said in that it requires the cooperation of the countries authorities which can at best be minimal I am sure. Perhaps lobbying someone higher up in the Peruvian (or wherever) government might get somewhere. There is obviously someone in the government passionate about these issues as evidenced by the near impossibility to get permits to legally export. Perhaps these people could assist in facilitating the enforcement authorities rather than relying on the local authorities who, as Sea mentioned, can leave something to be desired.


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## Afemoralis

Does this fall under the mandate of TWI? 

Thinking again about the "DON'T BUY THESE FROGS" Sticky, could it be managed by TWI and distributed to the relevant websites? I know there is a British version of Dendroboard- http://www.dendroworld.co.uk/, and I suspect there are other European and Japanese ones- perhaps a unified front would be more effective. We could also get it out to sites like Kingsnake, where the audience is perhaps less educated about dendrobatid-specific issues- but they still deal a lot of frogs. 

-Afemoralis


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## ETwomey

First of all, I am very glad to see this topic beginning to get more attention. As someone that works in the tropics, this is something that strikes very near to my heart. When we can't tell anyone about new frogs we find for fear or smugglers, it is very frustrating. And believe me, there are lots of frogs we are just keeping hush about simply so the smugglers don't come in and wipe out a population within 6 months. One thing that really caught my attention, and glad to see Ed noticed it too, was that some people are thinking that the natives are the root of this problem. This is a very, very, misguided take on the situation. Do not be confused here, the root of smuggling is the consumers that are simply apathetic to the fact that the frogs they are buying are responsible for the deaths of dozens more. Smugglers are bad too, but if no one wanted their frogs, what would they smuggle?

Its the consumer that drives a market, not a supplier. And certainly not the poor laborer that is harvesting the product.

Ok, that is it for now, more later. I think I will post the article on our website a little later tonight.

-Evan


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## kyle1745

> In some of the European countries it is possible for the animals to be released to registered breeders who then can breed and sell of the offspring of those frogs thus legitimizing them in that country.


It is my understanding this is how a number of the recent species have been legitimized. Granted not the preferred method.


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## kyle1745

The problem with many of these ideas is that we are way behind with all of them. No one thing will help that much and all of the ideas are good. For example as I stated in another thread no matter what we do here as a community there are always buyers and as long as there are buyers there will be smugglers. Not to denounce any other country but with many things we have much stronger ethics here.

Maybe starting a fund for the local authorities in these locations, but if I am not mistaken they are very corrupt anyways so maybe thats a bad idea.


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## bbrock

Afemoralis said:


> Does this fall under the mandate of TWI?


Not only does this fall under the mission of TWI, it is the main reason that TWI was formed. What we've seen in this discussion is the classic dichotomy of attacking a problem by cutting off the source, or eliminating demand. TWI is largely focusing on the demand side because this is where we, as private enthusiasts, can make the most difference. We are working this problem on a number of fronts but the thrust of our efforts are geared toward the objective of supplying 100% of consumer demand with cb, or verifiably sustainably harvested wc animals. This is a complex topic with a lot of possibilities for folks to get involved. Over the next few weeks we will be working on finalizing our ex situ conservation strategic plan and posting excerpts of that plan on our web site. The plan includes many of the suggestions already made here plus several more.

The only thing I will add at this time is that we have spent many, many, hours of sometimes heated debate about the possibility of producing a blacklist. Marcos has been working with USFWS and other groups to gain some clarification. But there are a lot of problems associated with creating blacklists and it may not be feasible. But we would certainly welcome opinions and suggestions. If there are populations of animals that have clearly never been legally exported/imported, then we would certainly like to advertise that fact. But there are a lot of i's to dot and t's to cross to get the right system in place but we are working on it.

Okay, one other thing. The thing this hobby could do right now is to stop placing so much emphasis on obtaining new imports and focus more attention on what is already here. As I have said many times, I have yet to meet the frogger who has every species and morph already existing in captivity in their collection. The new animals that come in are chewing up resources that are needed to insure stable populations of what we already have. In addition, we bring in new animals in such a haphazard manner that it is a miracle that any become successfully established in the hobby. So the first step is to get all existing captive populations enrolled in the Amphibian Steward Network so we can more systematically manage what we already have. At the same time, we should avoid drooling all over ourselves everytime a new wc animal becomes available. Doing so only creates increased market demand for anything "new".


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## kyle1745

So Brent how do the frog farms fall into this. While I agree we need more focus on what we already have, I see the frog farms as helping as well.


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## edwardsatc

Brent and Evan, Thanks to both of you for adding some great thought and insight to this thread.



kyle1745 said:


> The problem with many of these ideas is that we are way behind with all of them. No one thing will help that much and all of the ideas are good. For example as I stated in another thread no matter what we do here as a community there are always buyers and as long as there are buyers there will be smugglers.


Wow, you're kidding right? Is this really your attitude? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying - we can't stop it, so why bother.

Whew, I should probably back away from this thread and come back to it when the steam quits blowing out of my ears and I can respond with a level head.

Donn Edwards


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## kyle1745

No, no, no....

I was implying that it would take much more than a single idea or action, but many as a combined effort. Efforts could take place to slow it down, but stopping it all together maybe impossible. With anything of this scale we have to be realistic.

People scream no drugs no drugs but they come into the country every day. No matter how many billions we spend. I'll leave this one at that because no one will like my opinions on that one, but it is an example.


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## Steve

Having read this topic, i personally think we (as a generalisation meaning conservationists) need to concentrate on two areas.

1) Education of the local populus. 

2) Pressurising the S.A authorities and customs officials.

As with the massive increase in HIV/AIDS in certain parts of Africa, many organisations asked for pledges of money to pay for medical treatment of the sick. What was really needed was money to educate the people of the dangers of HIV/AIDS. 

This, i think is relevant in the smuggling of frogs. The local populations need educating in the value (life value not economic value) of the species in their locale. This is where i think frog farming projects are of so much value. If a village can make more income from carefully farming these frogs, than it can from selling it's forest, it will preserve it's forest.

If the locals are making more income from legitimatly breeding and exporting these frogs than smugglers can offer them, they will defend their land/stock from smuggling.

The authorities need to know the world's opinion on smuggling from their country. If they see the rest of the world taking a keen interest in the 'holes' left for smuggling from their country, i'm sure they will start to work to close them. No country wants negative critiscism on the way they do business.

Ok, these frogs are small, they don't need a big box. This makes them easier to smuggle and harder to detect. I am sure though, that ports of exit could be policed more efficiently. If the penalties for smuggling were higher, or harsher (maybe even jail time) then less people would be prepared to risk it. Add this to the locals not wanting smugglers stealing there source of income and we could be on to something.

These are just my ideas, and maybe as a community we can find a way to pressure/protest to the governments of these counties into doing a little more than they are doing right now.

Regards

Steve


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## bbrock

kyle1745 said:


> So Brent how do the frog farms fall into this. While I agree we need more focus on what we already have, I see the frog farms as helping as well.


Yes, they do. But TWI's focus is on protecting wild amphibians so frog farms simply designed to supply a product to hobbyists are not what we are looking for. What we like to see are operations that use proceeds to protect habitat for the animals. This can be done through outright purchase and protection of habitat, or by paying a decent wage to locals for sustainably managing habitat for animals. Obviously there are some fine examples of good operations that we are all familiar with.


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## kyle1745

I have thought about buying some land myself, but after looking a bit found that it was very hard to get a valid deed or if you did they were rarely honored due to the corruption of some of the governments. Im sure this differs per location, and Im sure there is more to it than the brief information I had found.


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## bbrock

Steve said:


> 2) Pressurising the S.A authorities and customs officials.


US customs is already all over the dendrobatid issue. And I agree with increasing enforcement but would not place my emphasis there. It is a pretty expensive proposition. It is also essentially the strategy that has been employed unsuccessfully in the drug war for decades. As Kyle pointed out, look at the billions that are spent on drug enforcement and the stuff still crosses the borders in truckloads.



> If the locals are making more income from legitimatly breeding and exporting these frogs than smugglers can offer them, they will defend their land/stock from smuggling.


This would be the ideal goal but I would not call it education. It is really just creating an economic model that is less empiralistic and more favorable to the locals and the natural habitat. And although it sounds like a win/win scenario, there are many questions about whether it is sustainable. For example, what happens when the hobby no longer treasures the frogs found in a particular locale? That will almost certainly happen as those animals become established as self sustaining captive populations or the fads of the hobby change. So what happens to the locals when the frog market suddenly dries up? And what if the market value of the frogs is still less than the value of cattle that could be grazed on that land? Some day I would love to see an economist on the TWI staff who could pencil out all of these things and see if truly sustainable economies could be developed. This is not a new idea as similar things have been done around the globe for almost 2 decades now. But what is different is that we are looking at completely novel commodities to be extracted from the forests. This goes beyond shade grown coffee or brazil nuts and expands what is considered a valuable commodity in the forest. The possibilities are exciting, but the challenges are pretty substantial too.


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## Steve

Hi Brent,

On reflection, i agree with you on both points. If drugs still make it through then frogs will, and one day the requirement for that type of frog may dry up with CB, and then yes, the locals will feel sold short!

Back to the drawing board for me.

Regards

Steve


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## markpulawski

How many members of this board would say no if someone showed up with the box of blue and red Histo's for $300 each in the what I want from Belgium thread, any , 10%? I myself would find it nearly impossible!


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## bluedart

In regards to dealing with the locals, education is a fickle thing. If somebody went up to your average American and asked of them what we'd be asking of the South American's, they might laugh. Additionally, with the South American governments, Steve mentioned using 'global criticization' as a means to push them to close the smuggling gaps. Let's be realistic. At most, 1 in every 750,000 people deeply care about the future of these creatures, and probably 1 in 400,000 would even take a keen interest. That's the US, a country with relatively minute problems. Look at it on a global scale. 1 in every million? 2 million? It's a disgustingly small percentage, but a real percentage nonetheless. We can't rely on the incredibly expansive influence of the hobby to do much on a wide scale governmental front. 

I think our best bet is paying the natives to keep their land smuggler/logger free. However, we can *educate* them of all the economic possibilites that their land holds within itself. If we were, for instance, to set up "frog farms" (which I think are BS, btw) there certainly is a chance that the demand for those particular frogs could dry up. However, what is almost always in demand in our hobby? Plants. Why not encourage them to cultivate vivarium friendly plants for export. Certainly not as profitable per capita, but sustainable nonetheless. Then there are the frogs. Then there is the yearly sum paid them to keep their land pure. That is absolutely a possible approach that we could take.


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## Afemoralis

bbrock said:


> The only thing I will add at this time is that we have spent many, many, hours of sometimes heated debate about the possibility of producing a blacklist. Marcos has been working with USFWS and other groups to gain some clarification. But there are a lot of problems associated with creating blacklists and it may not be feasible. But we would certainly welcome opinions and suggestions. If there are populations of animals that have clearly never been legally exported/imported, then we would certainly like to advertise that fact. But there are a lot of i's to dot and t's to cross to get the right system in place but we are working on it.


Good! I'm glad y'all are working on it! Would you mind filling us in on some of the problems associated with a blacklist? At first glance it seems like something that we could have up by the end of the week- at least for the US hobby. I don't expect a legally binding product- just an awareness campaign for hobbiests. 

And for the record, I'd turn down the histos flat. And I think most of the folks on this list would too if they knew they were smuggled (Please see photos at the beginning of the thread). Especially if someone insisted on calling them "Koi". Sheesh!

-Afemoralis


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## ETwomey

Ok, we've just put up a bit of an editorial/informative piece on the website:
http://www.dendrobates.org/smuggling.html

Its mostly conceptual, er...not as many hard facts as we would like, although we are trying to get some data together for maybe another article. Anyways, at the end is at least our rough version of a 'black list'. I'm sure it will piss some people off, etc, etc...this list is by no means authoritative nor comprehensive, though I don't think people will have much grounds to argue the species or morphs that are on there. If anyone can add to this list, don't hesitate to contact me.

Thanks,
Evan


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## RGB

This is a great thread. I'm glad so many of us are enthusiastic about stopping smuggling.

The ideas about paying off the locals would be nice, but without someone there to police them, they'll do whatever makes them the most money. As has been said, they're just trying to survive. Wouldn't you sell a few bullfrogs to someone if you had no money and wanted to feed your kids?

I think we need to focus on ourselves. If we make it known that certain species or populations are not okay to have, their hype would go away and people will be less likely to buy them. Almost every newcomer to this board wants some Histos, i see it all the time. The reason why is because somebody posted a pic and said "hey aren't these cool...by the way they're really rare!" It's all hype. If someone tried to sell them a histo for $300 before they knew it was "rare", would they buy it? I bet not.

I think the biggest impact will come from us educating ourselves as a hobby and steering uninformed hobbyists away from questionable frogs.


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## bbrock

Afemoralis said:


> Good! I'm glad y'all are working on it! Would you mind filling us in on some of the problems associated with a blacklist? At first glance it seems like something that we could have up by the end of the week- at least for the US hobby. I don't expect a legally binding product- just an awareness campaign for hobbiests.
> 
> -Afemoralis


Marcos or some of the other TWI schmucks may want to jump in on this but there are a couple of hurdles. The first is that the import records are a mess. Even though pdf are CITES listed, importations occurred before the listing which leaves a huge black hole. Then there are many records of "Dendrobates sp." being imported in large numbers. Another huge loophole. Next is the problem with differential interpretation of CITES by different countries. We've talked about this before but the end result is that animals smuggled to some European countries can eventually find their way as "legal" imports to the US. And finally is the problem of split origins where some of the animals in captivity trace back to smuggled animals but other animals in the same group were exported legally. So for the vast majority of animals already here, it is almost impossible to say whether they are black, white, or gray. In a few cases you can make the call.

The better way to do a blacklist is to do it the way that Evan just posted where people with direct knowledge in the field make the call. If there is a newly discovered population that has never been legally exported, then it is pretty easy to flag them as black list. But what if a bunch of blue jeans pumilio were smuggled out? It becomes more difficult. The formal TWI policy on this is still a work in progress so I don't want to say what TWI will, or will not, do. But I think what dendrobates.org has done is excellent.


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## edwardsatc

Ric Sanchez said:


> Ok, we've just put up a bit of an editorial/informative piece on the website:
> http://www.dendrobates.org/smuggling.html
> 
> Its mostly conceptual, er...not as many hard facts as we would like, although we are trying to get some data together for maybe another article. Anyways, at the end is at least our rough version of a 'black list'. I'm sure it will piss some people off, etc, etc...this list is by no means authoritative nor comprehensive, though I don't think people will have much grounds to argue the species or morphs that are on there. If anyone can add to this list, don't hesitate to contact me.


Thanks Evan,

This is exactly the type of educational narrative I was hoping to see!

Donn Edwards


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## Ed

snip "In regards to dealing with the locals, education is a fickle thing. If somebody went up to your average American and asked of them what we'd be asking of the South American's, they might laugh."endsnip


Actually this is a problem. We cannot even preserve species in the USA by the methods we tell people in other countries they should use... We develop or degrade needed habitat and sue when these practices are denied. This makes it hard to convince them we have a clue... (not that we necessarily do..) and that making the fast buck may not be the best option in the long run. 


snip " That's the US, a country with relatively minute problems."endsnip

I'm not sure what you mean by minute problems here given the problems that are beginning to be documented... 
I am not referring to climate change but a buildup of endocrine disrupters in the water ways, increased levels of mercury in freshwater fish.. etc.... 

snip "I think our best bet is paying the natives to keep their land smuggler/logger free."endsnip

This doesn't work. The Zoos have tried it and the problem is that you cannot secure funding of sufficient levels to maintain it long term.... 
Fine you pay them to keep it smuggler and logger free and when you can't keep up with inflation or the funds run out, you get a soy bean field or the clear cut loggers come through and that may be the end of it. 

snip "However, we can *educate* them of all the economic possibilites that their land holds within itself."endsnip

Just educating them doesn't help... there has to be some form of economic incentive for them to maintain the frogs and the land. Not only do they have to understand the value of the animal in question but they have to be able to earn a good living without negatively impacting the animal. This is the hard part. 

snip "If we were, for instance, to set up "frog farms" (which I think are BS, btw) there certainly is a chance that the demand for those particular frogs could dry up. However, what is almost always in demand in our hobby? Plants. Why not encourage them to cultivate vivarium friendly plants for export. Certainly not as profitable per capita, but sustainable nonetheless. Then there are the frogs. Then there is the yearly sum paid them to keep their land pure. That is absolutely a possible approach that we could take."endsnip

See above for some comments about paying them to keep the land as it is... 
Growing terrarium plants is also probably not the best answer due to the economics of scale. You are again encouraging them to clear and plant because the more of x that is planted the greater the amount of money they can get... 
There isn't any quick answer that is a good one but it has to be a multifocal approach from the ground up. 


I think Brent covered the black list item well enough.. 

Ed


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## Afemoralis

Great Job Evan! Seems like a strong starting point. Thanks for putting it together!

-Afemoralis


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## bbrock

Ed said:


> Actually this is a problem. We cannot even preserve species in the USA by the methods we tell people in other countries they should use... We develop or degrade needed habitat and sue when these practices are denied. This makes it hard to convince them we have a clue... (not that we necessarily do..) and that making the fast buck may not be the best option in the long run.


One of the things on my to-do list is the next time I fly over Ohio and Illinois is to snap some aerial pictures that can be compared with the photos of devastation coming out of Brazil and other tropical countries. I think you would be amazed at the similarity in landscapes. The same thing goes for the flight between Denver and Kansas City, most of which is over wheat fields that have obliterated 95% of the natural landscape over millions of acres. The point being that we, the US and Europe, have already done to our homes what we are telling other people not to do to theirs. Landscape ecology applied to conservation is what I do for a living and I'm convinced there is a much better way. With proper planning and what Aldo Leopold coined a "land ethic", I believe it is possible to enjoy a high standard of living while also maintaining healthy functioning ecosystems. But to do so requires developing stable economies centered around sustainable resource extraction and some radical and fundamental changes in land use patterns as well as the culture of how humans view their relationship with the land. It is extremely challenging because it means stripping away the false assumptions that are the underpinnings of the world's economic policies.




> I'm not sure what you mean by minute problems here given the problems that are beginning to be documented...
> I am not referring to climate change but a buildup of endocrine disrupters in the water ways, increased levels of mercury in freshwater fish.. etc....


Agreed. The US and other first world nations have enormous challenges ahead. As mentioned earlier, our economic models and policies are based upon false assumptions. At the root is the idea that we can manage for perpetually growing economies. A perpetually growing economy requires perpetually increasing consumption. You can increase consumption in one of two ways - by increasing the number of consumers (population growth or expanding into new markets) or by increasing the per capita consumption. The only way to support these perpetually growing economies is to assume unlimited resources for goods and materials. The problem is that there are no ecological models that even hint that such a thing is possible. But the economic models ignore this by simply writing off environmental damage and resource depletion as "externalities" meaning they are undesirable side effects that are external to the economic model. This mismatch from economic and political policy is so absurd that The Wildlife Society, a politically very conservative organization of professional wildlife biologists, issued a revolutionary policy statement opposing the fundamental basis for current economic policies - perpetual growth. The idea they would do such a thing was earth shattering but their reasoning was rock solid. At the very root of the wildlife biology profession is the principle of sustainable use of natural resources. Current economic policies are at odds with that foundation. A couple years later the Ecological Society of America and the Society for Conservation Biology adopted similar policies on economic growth. But the bottom line for us it that the next time you hear a politician or advocate arguing that doing X, Y, or Z for the environment will be bad for the economy, remember that they are offering a false choice and carry that idea with you to the polls.


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## 41714049

Wonderful thread!

As a result of these posts I did more research and decided to revoke my request for D. vanzolinii in the wanted sections of both DendroBoard and CanaDart.

I in no way want to support smuggling of wild animals... no matter how much I want them or how beautiful they may be.


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## ColombianFrogger

Ok, I think its time to give some info from Colombia. I finished making a dendrobatid booklet to give it to the local people here, so they at least can gain some knowledge about the species they're selling. It doesnt makes a lot of emphasys in the smuggling issue, as its useless to tell the people dont sell frogs while they have no another way to earn money, in places with few oportunities as in the pacific region of Colombia. People here has to first know the species to conserve them. So far, I've printed a few copies by my own, and the response of the people has been good. 

About frog farms, its possible but hard to do. It needs money and TIME, and thats something that we doesnt have here. Anyways, I think the way to prevent smuggling is not just have available every species of frog. Its not to satisfy the novelty, because new species are popping out every year from Peru and Colombia. the key is the education, of the hobbyists around the world. This is the first step. The farming and availability of new species takes time, but some frogs being smuggled maybe doesnt have that time. For example, lehmanni is now extinct from some local populations due smuggling, and every year is seen in shows. It could be almost fully extinct in less than 5 years if the trend continues, but every time people see lehmanni for sale just think "oh my! this is my chance to get a pair so I can stablish it in the hobby, so anyone will smuggle them again". Be realistic, those species CANT be stablished in the hobby breeding them in terrariums. Hey are sensitive, very hard to breed, and need huge enclosures to (succesfully) keep them. Yes, people can get 3 tadpoles per year, but in wild they can take care of more than 5 tadpoles each 3 months, so the numbers of CB froglets wont be enough to satisfy the demand. The solution could be farming, but right now anyone would like to make such projects there, the locality is dangerous and only the frog collectors can enter there. So, if you see this year lehmanni for sale, please DONT BUY THEM, and talk with the authorities. This time is not about population reductions, we're talking about extinction. Same about the "koi" histrionicus (please dont call them in that way, they're from Southern Colombia, why doesnt call them Barbacoas morph?) 

Daniel


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## Roadrunner

Again, here`s where frogtracks comes in handy. If they can be traced back to a legal import thru frogtracks, value them more highly($$). If they can only be traced back to germany and not to how they came to germany tell them they aren`t worth $25. Sure you can launder frogs lines thru paperwork other than the morph from the species listed but basically, anything legal they can get over there, we can get here too. If it can`t be traced don`t pay more than $25 for it. This would make the cost more than what the animal is worth for the hard to find rare animals and it will be cheaper just to wait for the legal shipments. We can`t even get all the morphs coming in into the hands of experienced breeders as is, let alone enough bloodlines to sustain em.


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## markpulawski

Well said Daniel but human nature is people what what they can't get/have. Understanding that you may be responsible for the extinction of a species in the wild is more guilt than most could live with so your point is well taken. 
In the past I had heard the Lehmanni were losing their habitat, can you tell us if there are populations of lehmanni living in habitat that is protected and will be forested for many years to come?


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## edwardsatc

frogfarm said:


> If it can`t be traced don`t pay more than $25 for it.


Just don't buy it at all!


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## bbrock

frogfarm said:


> Again, here`s where frogtracks comes in handy. If they can be traced back to a legal import thru frogtracks, value them more highly($$).


There is a big problem with this though. Most of the animals already in captivity can't be traced back to a legal importation - or if they could, it would take a lot of work. So, for example, the P. vittatus that I can hear calling in my house right now would get devalued because I can't trace them back to a legal import even though they are Nth decendents of captive animals. So the fear is that by valuing only the animals we can trace, then people will start clearing out all the "lesser value" stuff from their collections to make room for the "good stuff". This would lead to increased demand on recently imported animals that are more easily traced. And from a practical side, I don't think the terribilis in the hobby are having a significant ongoing negative impact on wild terribilis. If those animals that are already in captivity (whether they trace back to a "white list" or not) can meet the market demand without putting pressure on the wild populations, then we should value those animals highly. 

This gets pretty complicated and the trick is to strike the right balance that protects amphibians in the wild. My opinion is that we need to draw a line from this point forward. If a group of animals clearly are not legally obtained (mysteriosis), or their continued commerce jeopardizes wild populations (lehmanni), then they should be black listed. But I think a policy of innocent until proven guilty should be adopted but we should make every effort to determine guilt. 

For this reason I have been pushing hard in TWI to get people to start tracing what we can learn about the groups already in captivity. Not only will this help us with genetic management, but it will help establish the origins of these populations. My concern is to help frogs in the wild now and in the future but I'm not interested in trying to reconcile sins of the past unless such reconciliation is needed to bring needed protection to wild amphibians now.


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## trinacliff

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ask a question...when frogs are collected *legally*, who collects them? Are they collected in the same manner and what is done differently to ensure most of the frogs do not die in the process? Of course, I am right there with the rest of us being horrified by the pictures at the beginning of this thread...so what I'm wondering is does this happen when *legal* WC frogs are collected? I hate to think this way, but I would assume so. Can someone shed some light on this?

I remember being horrified by the pictures and stories I saw/heard of WC chameleons being collected...it caused me to never buy WC again, because the same thing happens. Natives go out and find them, use sticks to bat them out of the trees, shove them in sacks, and take them back to be sent off...many, many die in the process. They are all legal, though. Uh oh...I think I might have just opened another can of worms, inadvertently. :shock: 

Kristen


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## Ed

snip "so the numbers of CB froglets wont be enough to satisfy the demand."endsnip

Except that we still cannot satisfy demand for cb auratus so it is unreasonable to expect a frog that can only produce less than 15 metamorphs a year to be able to meet demand in the near future. 

snip "when frogs are collected *legally*, who collects them?"endsnip

The answer is it depends. Many animal collectors, exporters and importers are in it for the quick buck and the survivial rate can be terrible but the difference between legal and illegally collected frogs is that the Dendrobatids are under a quota system which limits the numbers that can be shipped and potentially lost. This can cause the people involved to try to get a better survivial rate while smuggled animals are under no such limitation as long as a profit can be had. 
One of the things to keep in mind with a number of chameleon species is that these are "filler animals" (particuarly Senegal Chameleons) and often the importer has to purchase a specific amount of these animals to get the rest of the shipment... Years ago when I was working in the pet trade, I imported herps from Thailand. To get the animals I wanted I had to purchase 6 (literally titled) grab bag of snakes. These were very large pillow cases that were stuffed with a variety of common snake species (mainly Ahaetellas) but there was one viper in one of the bags... 

One of the longer term goals of TWI is to try and establish collecting and shipping methods... 

Ed


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## kyle1745

I think with the proper contacts we could easily produce enough auratus though as well as many others.

I think the issues is that some of the wholesalers are not buying from hobbiest but from the importers\smugglers. Many hobbiest may also not be willing to sell their animals at wholesale prices. Thus some of the animals that end up in pet stores are not CB. I know some people that don't even pull eggs from many of their auratus anymore. I personally don't pull eggs from my Azuerus anymore.


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## Roadrunner

ohhh we can supply enough auratus...... and many others for that matter. 
I can`t(am too lazy) find an outlet for the frogs I produce from 1 pair and i`m already trying to impose 1 month breeding seasons to allow for more genetic diversity in the offspring i produce.
I was referring to the new morphs. If they are in far away, inaccessable places and they can only get $25 for them it`ll make it a lot less lucrative to go out finding these new morphs if they can`t move them. vittatus aren`t even worth $25 with or without tracing them back and most of the illegal or legal stuff that`s been here is going down in price too. 
Green leg and panguana lamasi are down to 3/$100 if you really want to move them or $50ea if you want to hold out and grow em up.
It`s the newness and rareness in the hobby that commands a hi price. I could devalue them in less than a year if i tried!! :lol: 
nowadays marketing is the only thing that sells frogs and rarity. Believe me. I`m not saying everything not traceable should be $25 but it`s on it`s way from sheer # of morphs and species available. They now compete amongst each other. We`re seeing the same thing that`s happening in the ball pythin market, except much much faster because what a ball python produces in a year a dart frog can produce in a week to a day.
Any hobbiest can produce 15 auratus a week w/ 2-3 pair. At 2 1/2 month they can be wholesaled if grown well. At $10ea that`s $150/wk just working w/ 1 type of auratus. That`s 60/month X2.5 = 150 frogs/10pertank and your at 18-20tanks for a monthly income of $600 and you never have to advertise a thing if you hook up w/ a wholesaler and sell at $10ea. You can pay your rent and frog food off a 8x8 room set aside to save frogs and curtail smuggling. You can have 2 types of auratus and switch it up w/ just a few more tanks and you could even do 4 types on 3 month shifts. 
I mean we have the oppurtunity to not outsource our labor for demand of a product, which I`m realizing more and more that that`s all this really is, and we`re not doing it because we are UNORGANIZED. 
What we`re really talking about here is supplying enough auratus and not buying the hi priced smuggled "newest morphs". although we don`t want to loose the bloodlines if any make it we don`t want to make it highly profitable. This is what really fuels looking for new stuff. If hobbyists take it upon themselves to educate wholesalers and retailers on proper care and become a network of people w/ tincs, auratus azureus etc. you can band together and scoop up an outlet for your frogs w/out having to advertise($ overhead) or setup a website or any of the other pain in the ass stuff I have to do. Have 1 member of the group set a standard for the size requirements for wholesale and offer a list of other private breeders to wholesalers to wholesale to them. 
It`s not easy but it`s worth it. 
The easiest way to get wholesalers not to buy smuggled frogs is to produce enough here. they won`t bring em if the buyers don`t buy em for $10ea. because they can get good cb offspring. 
look what phils done w/ the green leg and pang lamasi. now azdr and bj are selling probable pairs for $140, hobbiest for $100. you think people will try bringing in something that sensative if they can`t get $30ea for them? I mean trying to find them in the wild isn`t worth the $1 ea. I have enough trouble just getting them out of a 10gal. :lol: 
I know longwinded and making light of the situation, point is it`s doable w/ organization and dedication.
We can`t control what happens to their habitat or in germany(other than not paying the hi price for the newest morphs) only sustaining and organizing what we have here.


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## bluedart

Sorry Ed, I should've been more specific. You basically said everything I was trying to say, but more eloquently. Except for the last part about land management... I'm now enlightened. 

I think it's fair to say, however, that this thread is raising some much needed questioning regarding the way we treat our hobby, and will ultimately better the way we deal with the frogs we purchase in the future.


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## bluedart

frogfarm said:


> ohhh we can supply enough auratus...... and many others for that matter.


That's certainly true. But what you're proposing is a BREEDING OPERATION. You are proposing taking out hobby and turning it into a breeding operation. Isn't that one of the things we despise? We keep our frogs not for maximum profitability, but for maximum enjoyment. Also, hobbyists have made time investements in the offspring they produce. I'm not sure they would be as willing to merely depart hundreds of offspring yearly to a wholesaler who will then ship them off to hundreds of pet stores where 1/3 of them will die there and 1/2 of the survivors will die within a few weeks at their "new homes."

It's more complicated and much less feesible that you're comprehending.


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## bbrock

bluedart said:


> That's certainly true. But what you're proposing is a BREEDING OPERATION. You are proposing taking out hobby and turning it into a breeding operation. Isn't that one of the things we despise?


Well let's think about this a little bit. What I'm hearing is the assumption that these wc auratus being imported are mostly being wholesaled for the general pet trade rather than the hobby. Let's say that assumption is correct for the sake of argument. So what that means is there is pressure on wild populations to supply a general pet trade that is outside our hobby circles. And what Aaron is saying is that the hobby has plenty of capacity to step in and supply that wholesale demand with cb animals. I don't think you have to turn your hobby into a breeding operation necessarily to do it. In my earlier years in the hobby I was casually producing a LOT of auratus and vittatus. The reason was because I just liked having tadpoles around and I was using a pretty close to zero effort method for rearing them. Every now and then I would pull a clutch of eggs and let them hatch. Then the tads would get tossed into large community tubs containing tadpoles of various ages and I would remove froglets as they morphed out. It didn't take long before I had close to 50 of each species hopping around as surplus. I never had problems getting rid of them but it was a pain hauling them to shows or boxing them up to ship one customer at a time. So I stopped pulling eggs. I did not want to sell to pet shops because I have a personal beef against pet shops that stock things like pdf for impulse shoppers to buy and kill. So I simply didn't do business with them and stuck to direct sales to other hobbyists.

But if this assumption about imports is true, it means that by refusing to sell animals to pet shops, we could be placing unnecessary pressure on wild populations because those shops will get their frogs one way or the other (just restating what Aaron said). So if I can easily produce 25-50 auratus froglets just for the pleasure of watching the life cycle process and a bunch of other people do the same thing, collectively you have wholesale quantities that could supply the pet shops with cb animals. All it takes is a point of contact in the group who then puts coordinates the order and sale and the group pools their surplus to supply that order. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I don't like the way most pet stores do business. But I have to be honest, if a thousand auratus are going to die going through the pet store business, I would rather it be a thousand cb than a thousand wc. It's worth thinking about anyway.


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## Roadrunner

exactly, michelle was griping about the way i state things and make posts too long for anyone to even read thru. exactly what brent said. 
it`s not easy and it stinks to think a lot of them may die but i took 3 wholesalers under my wing and supply ff cultures at $2-3 each at the show and there are enough to feed them thru a month almost 2 w/ fresh hydei cultures. they wouldnt be buying anymore if they were loosing them. anyone who sells darts is under a business plan, if they die, they don`t make money. they die because people want them so wholesalers get them in the hopes they sell before they waste away. if you supply food and tell them all they need is pesticide free oak leaves and cork to keep them(no substrate needed), washing and sterilizing the tanks is the most important thing. If anyone need me spell out the game plan for them please call. 
The only reason I still do this job is because I think I may figure out why people want what they do and actually save frogs. I`m changing my whole business plan because of what i`m learning here and elsewhere. I`m even starting to breed other animals as pets to FUND my breeding dart frogs so I don`t have to get rid of anymore pairs because they aren`t "sought after" anymore.
Just think though, the kid who gets an auratus from a pet store may grow up to save animals because of the experience you provide for them. That`s one thought that keeps me doing what I`m doing.


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## bluedart

bbrock said:


> bluedart said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's certainly true. But what you're proposing is a BREEDING OPERATION. You are proposing taking out hobby and turning it into a breeding operation. Isn't that one of the things we despise?
> 
> 
> 
> Well let's think about this a little bit. What I'm hearing is the assumption that these wc auratus being imported are mostly being wholesaled for the general pet trade rather than the hobby. Let's say that assumption is correct for the sake of argument. So what that means is there is pressure on wild populations to supply a general pet trade that is outside our hobby circles. And what Aaron is saying is that the hobby has plenty of capacity to step in and supply that wholesale demand with cb animals. I don't think you have to turn your hobby into a breeding operation necessarily to do it. In my earlier years in the hobby I was casually producing a LOT of auratus and vittatus. The reason was because I just liked having tadpoles around and I was using a pretty close to zero effort method for rearing them. Every now and then I would pull a clutch of eggs and let them hatch. Then the tads would get tossed into large community tubs containing tadpoles of various ages and I would remove froglets as they morphed out. It didn't take long before I had close to 50 of each species hopping around as surplus. I never had problems getting rid of them but it was a pain hauling them to shows or boxing them up to ship one customer at a time. So I stopped pulling eggs. I did not want to sell to pet shops because I have a personal beef against pet shops that stock things like pdf for impulse shoppers to buy and kill. So I simply didn't do business with them and stuck to direct sales to other hobbyists.
> 
> But if this assumption about imports is true, it means that by refusing to sell animals to pet shops, we could be placing unnecessary pressure on wild populations because those shops will get their frogs one way or the other (just restating what Aaron said). So if I can easily produce 25-50 auratus froglets just for the pleasure of watching the life cycle process and a bunch of other people do the same thing, collectively you have wholesale quantities that could supply the pet shops with cb animals. All it takes is a point of contact in the group who then puts coordinates the order and sale and the group pools their surplus to supply that order. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I don't like the way most pet stores do business. But I have to be honest, if a thousand auratus are going to die going through the pet store business, I would rather it be a thousand cb than a thousand wc. It's worth thinking about anyway.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's a bad idea--not at all. Sustaining captive populations so that there is no need to collect from the wild is an ideal situation and one I support 100%. I suppose I should have clarified--I'm against somebody taking 5 pairs of frogs and encouraging them to breed as much as possible and as fast as possible for maximum output. Your scenario--I love it. That's one of the wonders about our hobby--the life cycle. And I definitely agree that if 1000 frogs had to die, let them be CB. CB would be hardier in a pet store setting anyways. 

When I think "breeding" operation, I begin to recall images of basements chock full of shelving units laden with tupperware containers, each holding 18 leopard geckos. Or ball pythons. That's the image that comes to mind, and THAT leaves a distaste in my mouth. Aaron and your comments reminded me of something I heard back when I got my first frogs. I was told that it was a disservice to the hobby and to the frogs if I didn't let them breed. It's stayed with me pretty much the entire time.


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## Roadrunner

Oh plus from the sales of ff`s and frogs you can save up to buy the stuff coming in from peru and panama legally, there`s some hi price frogs out there. and if people just bought a frog or 2 from understory as pets, they would live a long time never breeding and would be available for new blood on down the road, they wouldn`t just die as pets. i`ve been laying awake at nite trying to make up a game plan on this for a looong time now. see this is what happens when people can make a living breeding frogs, you get them intertwined w/ the market and problems w/ the hobby and they try and work out viable solutions. 
I know it`s not perfect but it`s a start to figure out why it happens and how to curtail it oursleves since we are actually a big part of the problem. or at least we have it in our hands to solve it. 
It is a lot of work though and it`s not going to happen overnite.

I`m reluctant to state this but i`m confident columbia is just around the corner. I have a friend who already has permmits for some snakes, albino iguanas and some turtles, i think and he`s working on frogs. PLEASE DON~T EMAIL ME OR PM. this is all i know is what`s stated here. there are connections in the fed? gov`t which may be able to release permits. This is all bound to happen. Once a government finds out they can fund their cause by selling frogs to the us it`ll go thru. We haven`t seen this many new morphs in the hobby in this short period of time in years if ever(other than european shipments). We really have to organize now because if all this stuff starts coming in it will all devalue each other and we`ll loose what we`ve been waiting for all this time. well me at least. we need an army of frog breeders to hit up the pet shops sell ff`s and frogs to be able to pay the hi price of all this new stuff. I`ve already maxed my spending w/ the escuados :lol: but hi priced legal frogs need buyers to fund the breeding projects down there and keep the ball rolling and try and stop the habitat degradation. 
where is the money going to come from to keep buying these $180 - $300 frogs. once most people are tapped out and there`s no more room for new hi priced frogs it`ll all crash. people won`t be able to get there money back on breeding the hi price stuff and they won`t make the investment again. This is where we need to educate hobbiest to go out and make more money to buy more frogs. I sound like a crack dealer here trying to make runners out of hobbiests.


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## Roadrunner

6 pair/3 morphs/2 bloodlines of each/4 month breeding seasons keeps the tads and froglets the healthiest and you can switch up what you have available.
4 shelving units hold 4 - 18 gal sterilites each for froglets juvis. 180 tads in 180 16oz cups on another sturdier rack. cork can be sterilized and leaves are free.
4 racks - $40 or less
20 sterilites $100 on sale
40 pieces of glass about$160
tape cork and leaves are all the more you need
7 ft x 3 ft covers 20 tanks
5 ft x 3 ft covers ff`s and tads.
it`s not going to look pretty but for this you want ease of maintenance and efficiency. 
for auratus you can make $600/month. an 8x8 room will pay your rent for the whole house and save frogs in the process. setup costs about 1/2 your first months earnings.
I`m in this to save frogs not to be jaded in thinking all my frogs are going to make it whether going to a wholesaler or directly to a hobbiest. they don`t think all their offspring will make it or they wouldn`t breed so damn much either.
Immediate problem is reducing the # of smuggled frogs from the wild. This may help.


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## defaced

> exactly, michelle was griping about the way i state things and make posts too long for anyone to even read thru.


I read your posts. One because I'm long winded too, two because you have good points, three is because of stuff like this:


> I sound like a crack dealer here trying to make runners out of hobbiests.


 :lol: 

---

It sounds like there two parts to this problem, the hobbiests and the pet trade. I'm going to restate some stuff in simplistic terms to make sure I'm following along at home ok.

Hobbiest: we buy the expensive, and some times illegal frogs. Our tastes change to what's coming off the boats and we want it yesterday. 

Pet Trade: they buy frogs they see in the pet store. Typically the same frogs are being bought all the time because the buyers generally aren't in it for the long haul and are happy with just owning a bright yellow, blue, or green frog. 

Aaron's and Brent's discussion seems to address the pet trade market pretty well, but aside from education, is there any other way to address the hobbyists' demand problem?


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## Ed

snip "Pet Trade: they buy frogs they see in the pet store. Typically the same frogs are being bought all the time because the buyers generally aren't in it for the long haul and are happy with just owning a bright yellow, blue, or green frog. "endsnip

I would not characterize the distinction this way... They are both the pet trade and both are often hobbyists buying the frogs. (usually the difference is either the degree of experience or knowledge before purchase). Price is no distinction. There are plenty of people out there who shell out a lot of money on an impulse for a frog or frogs (or a dog, cat, bird, monkey, tiger etc) on a whim just are readily as those who purchase the really cheap items... 

Both groups may be purchasing illegal frogs. The cost of the frog is not a barrier to it being a whim. 

The difference is that often we tend to deal among ourselves or with people/sellers who specialize in either these frogs or amphibians in general and are often much more educated on the animals. 

Different frogs have in the past been available in the pet trade with varying frequency (sometimes common sometimes as an oddity) . I am aware of at least one person long long ago getting Atelopus varius in a pet store... 


Ed


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## kyle1745

One worry I have with some of these comments is based a lot of the information Corey posted in this article:

http://www.kero-kero.net/poptrends.html

While I like Aarons ideas, I see people come and go in this hobby because they go too far and it becomes a burden. The key is to keep what you like, and are interested in. Sure there are some of us who are sick and can't stop, but we are also the people who enjoy a couple, ok a few hours in the frog room each week. I know I have not had a vacation in years and it is getting to be time... ;-)

I do like idea of trying to sell to the pet stores more as I think bent said it best... "a dead CB is better than a dead WC" On top of that with the good care sheet and etc many more could live just fine and help strengthen the fight to help save some of frogs in the wild.


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## defaced

> Both groups may be purchasing illegal frogs. The cost of the frog is not a barrier to it being a whim.


I was characterizing more by what the demand was than the price. What frogs we buy that are smuggled are going to be different than the frogs the pet trade buys that are smuggled. While I agree that price is rarely a factor in a whim purchase, there's a big difference between the people who buy a a 70-120 dollar frog from a pet store and a 300-500 dollar frog from a hobbiest, hence the "Hobbiest: we buy the expensive, " bit. Of course there are people ouside this generalaization, which is why it's a generalization.


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## steelcube

Well, I was being pessimistic at first when all this started. With all the frogs from "questionable origin" in the US, surely its unfair to point fingers to the Europeans.

But if people are willing to admit that we as hobbyists have been trading greedily in the recent past (harsh word but its true..) and now people want a fresh start, then I am in... 

I think the key is education... like what Evan et al wrote, not the short fuse and pointing finger.

I still wish that they would feed those frogs in the holding pen. Reminds me of dead mantella shipments... wait a minute are they legal?... 



---


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## Ed

snip "I still wish that they would feed those frogs in the holding pen. Reminds me of dead mantella shipments... wait a minute are they legal?..."endsnip


Now this is a confusing situation as I understand it... 
Apparently the goverment in Madagascar is/was not in total control of some of the ports or other areas of the nation. This has resulted in animals being smuggled out with and without falsified permits as well as some animals being legally shipped out with permits. (for an example of the problem see http://www.wcs.org/media/file/Summer20021.pdf). Whether or not the mantellas were shipped out legally is questionable. 

Ed


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## bbrock

I thought I posted a long response to this latest twist in the discussion last night but either I forgot to hit the magic button or it evaporated in the ether. But now there is more to respond to. Kyle is right that not everyone can, should, or would want to, set up for production. It is good we have some people doing it and I think Aaron could be a great mentor to help others fill some underserved market areas. But on the other end I think with the right organization, then all the small collections of a few vivaria can be combined to represent the equivalent of several large scale producers. That's the idea behind the Amphibian Steward Network - to allow all enthusiasts to enjoy their passions within their own comfort levels and priorities but pool their efforts with others for a greater collective good.

And regarding the "hobby" demand for new and rare imports, I have a personal opinion of what may be driving some of it and that is prestige. Like any hobby, some participants have gained more notoriety and respect than others. There are the old guard who pioneered many of the husbandry techniques we all take for granted and continue to wow us with their exemplary skills. There are also folks who have just been around long enough that everyone knows them. But for newer folks in the hobby, there appears to be a fairly quick way to gain some notoriety and that is to have something that other folks covet. And the most available way to do this is to get yourself some of the fancy new imports. Clearly there are plenty of equally beautiful and equally challenging frogs already in captivity that would be available to the newer hobbyists but those things don't seem to grab the "awe" of their colleagues like something new and exciting. Ironically, the newer hobbyists probably don't realize that the "old guard" tend to notice newer froggers who pace themselves, build their collections slowly and thoughtfully, and exhibit an interest in the broader good of the hobby rather than in filling a checklist of cool stuff. But regardless, I would like to see other rewards available for skilled froggers than the reverence that comes with having something cool and unusual.

I feel a bit like a snake oil salesman promising that the cure to all ailments can be found in this little bottle. But I am hoping that the ASN will provide some of these avenues for gaining recognition but demonstrating increasing levels of professionalism in the way a hobbyist manages their animals. Personally, I would be much more impressed by someone who has documented the pedigree of their g&b auratus back 10+ generations than I am of someone who has the latest imitator morph. So I hope that some day having all of your animals enrolled in the ASN, obtaining upper tier steward status, or serving on a Species Management Team will be considered more prestigious than what you have in your collection.


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## steelcube

In addition to all that have been said, I also think its a good idea to educate the locals to build businesses and pursue legal permits to their goverments and show them that there are markets, rather big, that would accept all their productions. 

Give them loan to buy a land. 

Build competitions for smugglers and give them alternative from the cocaine industry in Columbia. This is an environmental-friendly business, better than selling coal.

Waiting for people from the Western World to establish a legal exclusive channel in Columbia and other countries than Peru may not ever happen. 


---


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## bbrock

steelcube said:


> In addition to all that have been said, I also think its a good idea to educate the locals to build businesses and pursue legal permits to their goverments and show them that there are markets, rather big, that would accept all their productions.


Yes. I often wonder what the impact would be of just letting the locals know that the frogs they are selling for a buck or two end up selling for $150+ to the end user. And that if they charged $50 per frog people would still buy them. Would that allow them to collect fewer frogs and still make more money, or would it just start a gold rush for frogs?

The loans for land idea is a good one I think because that loan can come with strings attached placing conditions on how the land can be used.


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## Dancing frogs

bbrock said:


> steelcube said:
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to all that have been said, I also think its a good idea to educate the locals to build businesses and pursue legal permits to their goverments and show them that there are markets, rather big, that would accept all their productions.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I often wonder what the impact would be of just letting the locals know that the frogs they are selling for a buck or two end up selling for $150+ to the end user. And that if they charged $50 per frog people would still buy them. Would that allow them to collect fewer frogs and still make more money, or would it just start a gold rush for frogs?
> 
> .
Click to expand...

I would bet a short "gold rush" would happen, but I also think the local people would start to value them (and their habitat) much more in a short amount of time. 
Who knows, maybee if they would start chaging $50 a frog, maybee the smugglers would start looking elsewhere...hopefully to captive breeding programs or sustainable farm type operations.


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## steelcube

bbrock said:


> Yes. I often wonder what the impact would be of just letting the locals know that the frogs they are selling for a buck or two end up selling for $150+ to the end user. And that if they charged $50 per frog people would still buy them. Would that allow them to collect fewer frogs and still make more money, or would it just start a gold rush for frogs?


Well it's like gold rush for frogs right now, except most would end up dead. 

Rather than selling the frogs that they caught and get only one payment, Breeding the frogs will ensure their future income and the continuation of the species.


---


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## steelcube

Illustration: 

If you tell a teenager: "I wont give you any allowance but I'll pay you $1 for each worm you can find." The teenager will dig all day to get as many as he can... (well these days it depends, but that another story)

But if you explain to him that if he make those worm in a bin/ compost bin, add some compost and some worms, the worms will multiply in it, its easier, you don't have to dig today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, next week, next month where worms are getting harder to find... It will make sense for him to pursue this alternative. 

Sooner or later, he has several compost bins and there will be worms in the ground that he doesn't even care to dig.


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## kyle1745

I agree with the analogy, but think it needs done in the native countries as well as here. For example we could greatly improve many of our husbandry practices to help produce more and healthier offspring.


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## bbrock

kyle1745 said:


> I agree with the analogy, but think it needs done in the native countries as well as here. For example we could greatly improve many of our husbandry practices to help produce more and healthier offspring.


Maybe this should split off as a new topic but I'm curious to know what aspects of husbandry we need to improve most. The first one that comes to my mind is that frogs are being sold way too small. I've also noticed a trend toward shipping throughout the year as evident by a number of posts about "frozen frogs". I personally think these are two husbandry practices that could have long term health consequences for the frogs.


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## kyle1745

Yes maybe a new thread is warranted for this. I think tank size is also a big deal, too many people are trying to cram 2-3-4 frogs into a 10gal tank. My point related to this thread though is with improved practices we can breed more animals to help offset any smuggled. Many people keep a lot of frogs but not multiple tanks of the same species.


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## Ed

snip "Maybe this should split off as a new topic but I'm curious to know what aspects of husbandry we need to improve most. The first one that comes to my mind is that frogs are being sold way too small. I've also noticed a trend toward shipping throughout the year as evident by a number of posts about "frozen frogs". I personally think these are two husbandry practices that could have long term health consequences for the frogs"endsnip


Shipping can be done year round (as Zoos do it and the pet stores obviously do it) but I suspect that that often the frozen frog syndrome is part of our desire for convience of door to door service.. 
A lot of the frozen frogs could be avoided by choosing the more expensive shipping via the airlines and picking the frogs up at the airport (yes I know that is a pain for those who live hours away from an airport (in which case if they are sent and held at the shipper (Fed-Ex, UPS or even the post office) for pick-up the issue can be significantly minimized. 

Ed


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## kyle1745

Agreed, station to station fedex shipping is my only recommended method. Very limited exposure, but it is also my understanding delta has backed off some of their shipping options.


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## bbrock

Yes, I understand that year round shipping CAN be done be the question is SHOULD it be done to the current extent given that things can and do go wrong. When I first started frogging shipping in the winter simply wasn't done unless the orgin and destination were in southern climes or there was a real reason to do so. I did receive my blue jeans in Feburary via Dash and they arrived with no problem. But two other boxes shipped the same day also by Delta Dash froze to death on the Denver tarmac. Of course we face similar problems shipping during the heat of summer. To me the prevalence of shipping year round in the hobby is a symptom of a hobby that wants instant gratification. I know I probably sound like an old curmudgeon but I don't understand why waiting a few months for good weather to ship is such a burden.

But I don't want to dwell on this too much because I think Kyle raised some much more important points about how husbandry could be improved.


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## Dancing frogs

I think this (the shipping topic) should be split, but I will post here anyway, being that others have already replied...

Anyone who comes here often knows I am working on trying to come up with a (for the most part) shipping system that will work year round, with exceptions of the extremes...

I contacted one of the recipients of "frozen frogs" and asked how they were packed...I was told they were in a box lined with 1/2" styrofoam...
They probably wouldn't have made it anyway in 8 out of 12 months with that packaging.

I feel that being able to ship more frequently (safely) will benefit everyone in the hobby, as for the most part, someone who is raising 50 froglets can take better care of 150 froglets...with all else being equal...not saying it is impossible to care for that many frogs, it is just easier.

That way, you don't have a frog that gets skipped a feeding too often...you don't have a ten gallon tank with froglets of various ages wading through their own filth...things like that.

Another answer to that would be moderation by the frog keeper...if you can't raise that many, don't...don't even bother pulling the eggs if you won't be able to care for that many...

Anyways...that's my $0.02!


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## Dendrobait

Just a random question...but I recall in another one of these threads that the current vittatus in the hobby came in as lugubris. Since lugubris occurs in panama and vittatus in Costa Rica, could the name switch have been a tactic to cover up the origins of the animals or where they exported from CR before the ban?


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## bbrock

Dendrobait said:


> Just a random question...but I recall in another one of these threads that the current vittatus in the hobby came in as lugubris. Since lugubris occurs in panama and vittatus in Costa Rica, could the name switch have been a tactic to cover up the origins of the animals or where they exported from CR before the ban?


I happen to know a little something about this. First, both vittatus and lugubris are native to CR but lugubris has a larger range. But the name switch is legit. The so-called "thin-striped" vittatus did come into the hobby as lugubris but there was always some question about their identity because they look more like vittatus than any known populations of lugubris. So I personally collected some eggs and had some friends amplify the DNA and sequence it. We then compared that sequence with the samples published in Genbank. Our sequence was a perfect match for one of the two vittatus samples in Genbank and was only 1 base pair off from the other sample. The closest match to any of the lugubris samples was 4 base pairs off. This provided strong evidence that the frogs were, in fact, vittatus. Then the first year Brian Kubicki attended IAD, I had him take a look at the frogs in question. His opinion was without a doubt that they were vittatus and he felt like he could even guess at the locality they came from. So that is the story on the name change.


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