# ANNOUNCEMENT TO NOOBS---ALL MUST READ---regarding lighting in your tanks



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

PLEASE DO NOT USE INCANDESCENT LIGHTS TO LIGHT YOUR TANKS unless you are absolutely sure it does not get too hot for your variety of frog! The large majority of poison dart frogs do not like temps over 80 degrees, much less over 75 degrees. 

Use flourescent UV bulbs, with T5s being the best option based on their slimness.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

What's your reasoning behind recommending everyone use bulbs that emit UV?


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

From what I remember getting the bulbs with UV really doesnt matter because the glass reflects most if not all the UV and you lose the need for having it... With reptiles its different because they have screen tops... UV isn't needed with the frogs because one they cost to much and two are useless if you have a glass top which 90 percent of people do.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> What's your reasoning behind recommending everyone use bulbs that emit UV?


I was just referring to those in reference to allowing plant growth and fluorescent tubes. Mainly, I was wanting them to avoid the regular light bulbs that so often come with kits for terrariums generally intended for reptiles. 

I'm assuming you are saying UV is not necessary--the emphasis was not meant on UV, but on fluorescent lights.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Then say floresence because when people read UV and look at costs they are gonna say SH*T cause those suckers can get expensive, trust me lol I almost bought 4 for my big 55 gal tank and then realized I could just buy floresnce =O so much cheaper but I agree don't get any incandesnt lights only floresent


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

agreed thank you susan hehe im with you on this one
-scotty


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

In my experience, T8's actually put out much less heat and are *usually* the best option for those with no experience. T5's are better for those who want a lighting upgrade, but you definitely do have to be more careful.

I'd throw PC lighting in with incandescents, as a noob I lost a few frogs to those heating up my tank too much.... and that was a 125G, I can't imagine how much a pair of those would heat up a 20 gallon.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Also a lot of the risk comes with how the tanks are ventilated. A closed up tank to maximize humidity is going to be at risk regardless of the lighting. 
I use PC lights on top of taller enclosures (20 gal verticles) without any issues with temperatures but then my tanks have a good amount of ventilation to let the excess heat escape. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I use screw in CFL's (Is that what you all mean by PC?) In incandescent fixtures for 10gal's and well most of my other tanks actually too. I just vary the wattage some depending on tank size/height and all my tanks have some ventilation so heat at the top inside escapes out before it heats the rest of the tank to much like it might if the tank was sealed (I am not really in favor of any tank being sealed ever)

Regular incandescent bulbs do tend to get hot and don't put out very pleasing light usually nor do they last as long, so I substitute screw in CFL's for them every time. 

As for the UV issue, if Ed is so inclined he can probably talk about a few potential health issues with lighting frogs using UV bulbs....if I'm not mistaken there are potential problems or concerns with darts that don't exist or may be less of a factor with reptiles. 

The glass/acrylic tops block most of the uvb light btw...uvA mostly gets through unless it's a specialty type of glass or acrylic (like op-4), and that is mostly where the potential health concerns are with frogs and uv lights over glass/acylic tops (Remember the black light/florescent mineral uva stuff Ed?)

Regular CFL lighting puts out little to no UV a, b or c so out side of specialty reptile bulbs and black lights that really isn't an issue.

If you are going to post an all caps "all noobs must read" thread title I would advise getting the info right, specific, and not putting in "UV" since there are potential health risks with frogs there...Essentially while I'm sure your intentions were good, you just told everyone to light their tanks with something that may be potentially damaging in the long run. Using partial screen tops to let in UVB further complicates the subject as there are also potential health risks there.

Also just to note it...Incandescent bulbs generally sucking as frog lighting and having heat issues is fairly common knowledge or should be to anyone who has done even the most basic of research, but thank you for the reminder


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Once again, everyone's emphasis here is that you be aware of the tanks internal temps (not just the room's temps) to be sure your tank is not getting too hot. Adequate ventilation will also reduce your risk of disease by boosting the frogs' immune system due to cleaner air. Ideally, there should be vents at the bottom and top of the tank for air flow to move through the tank. Some have even rigged small fans for this purpose.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> I use screw in CFL's (Is that what you all mean by PC?) In incandescent fixtures for 10gal's and well most of my other tanks actually too. I just vary the wattage some depending on tank size/height and all my tanks have some ventilation so heat at the top inside escapes out before it heats the rest of the tank to much like it might if the tank was sealed (I am not really in favor of any tank being sealed ever)
> 
> Regular incandescent bulbs do tend to get hot and don't put out very pleasing light usually nor do they last as long, so I substitute screw in CFL's for them every time.
> 
> ...


 
HI Dave,

It should be qualified that it is okay as long as the frogs can regulate thier exposure to the UVA and UVB. They still have the ability to convert provitamin D to D3, so some level of exposure is benefiicial but if the population is an undercanopy dwelling species, they are going to be able to convert provitamin D to D3 with much less exposure than a species that dwells right out in direct sun (for example some of the Bastimentos pumilio are active in the direct sun..)

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

So short/small tanks and/or sparsely planted tanks with UV lights would be the most problematic probably?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> So short/small tanks and/or sparsely planted tanks with UV lights would be the most problematic probably?


It is harder to say than that because if the tank has a deep leaf litter bed, the frogs can use that for shelter. We know that in some species they will if given the chance avoid using calling sites that are in direct exposure but this makes sense if the frog is regulating thier UV exposure and D3 levels as they would be using those calling sites for long periods of time resulting in excess exposure. 

check out the following links for how even nocturnal and shade dwelling reptiles show adaptations to more efficiently process provitamin D http://people.hofstra.edu/jason_d_williams/HUML/Handbooks/Ferguson.pdf 

http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/vitamin-d-house-geckos-texas-spiny.pdf

This is why we can't assume that all exposure is a problem and instead if possible give them the option to control thier exposure. A bare bottomed no-leaf litter, very sparsely planted tank with UVB (or even UVA) is probably a recipe for disaster. 


problems with UVB exposure 

BioOne Online Journals - Photodermatitis and Photokeratoconjunctivitis in a Ball Python (Python regius) and a Blue-Tongue Skink (Tiliqua spp.) 

The interesting thing is that there is an evolving body of literature that indicates that species were considered to not need exposure to UVB are being shown to increase thier levels of D3 if given the opportunity to do so behaviorally (the gecko reference above), including snakes. It will be interesting to see where the recommendations are in 5-10 years as I think we are going to see some major changes in understanding D3 requirements in captive herps.. 
(for a snake reference check out AVMA - American Journal of Veterinary Research - 69(2):294 - Abstract)


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

earthfrog said:


> I was just referring to those in reference to allowing plant growth and fluorescent tubes.


???



> Mainly, I was wanting them to avoid the regular light bulbs that so often come with kits for terrariums generally intended for reptiles.
> 
> I'm assuming you are saying UV is not necessary--the emphasis was not meant on UV, but on fluorescent lights.


Okay, but you should check/consider your facts much more carefully before proclaiming such adamant dictums (especially when using all caps...which is the online equivalent of yelling at people).


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> ???
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, but you should check/consider your facts much more carefully before proclaiming such adamant dictums (especially when using all caps...which is the online equivalent of yelling at people).


I don't agree that it's yelling, it's just more prominent, although it can be interpreted that way if you like. I think there is no harm in what I posted, although it is more or less a matter of the effect of heating within the tanks. I am not going to be an expert before I post at all times---that is what the community is for. If I refrain from posting until I am an expert, I may get it right, but I post now with the knowledge that folks such as yourself can chime in and fill in the gaps. This way, the information offered and the discussion spawned are a lot more valuable than if I knew everything up front.

Thanks for filling in the gaps, community.


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## HeatherW (Oct 25, 2010)

I am new to darts and want to get a pair of auratus. I am having troubles keeping my tank warm enough! I have a heat mat on the bottom and a fluorescent light on top and its not quite cutting it. 

If the humidity is maintained and I mist more often would it be ok to use a low watt heat lamp just to bring it up those 6-7 degrees?

I have hermit crabs and they have a 75 watt red heat light on their tank 24-7 as well as a heat mat and if I mist 3 times a day the humidity stays in the 90's. Of course I wouldnt use a 75 watt on my frogs I was thinking more like a 25watt blue night light.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Heather,

This probably should be its own thread.. as it isn't quite the same as the thread above it. 

What are your tank temperatures? 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

HeatherW said:


> I am new to darts and want to get a pair of auratus. I am having troubles keeping my tank warm enough! I have a heat mat on the bottom and a fluorescent light on top and its not quite cutting it.
> 
> If the humidity is maintained and I mist more often would it be ok to use a low watt heat lamp just to bring it up those 6-7 degrees?
> 
> I have hermit crabs and they have a 75 watt red heat light on their tank 24-7 as well as a heat mat and if I mist 3 times a day the humidity stays in the 90's. Of course I wouldnt use a 75 watt on my frogs I was thinking more like a 25watt blue night light.



Ed is right, but as it somewhat relates to noob lighting I'll go ahead and say a few things...
Wow how cold is your place? ...Um are you running the heat mat at night also? You can do that...in fact you can set it on a timer to only come on at night if you don't need it during the day. You could also stick another heat mat on the back glass which might be better then a light bulb...A light bulb will mostly raise the temp in the top of the tank and not effect the temps as much (but will help some) in the lower parts. Might be more risk of cooking your frogs or stressing them with the extra light though. A heat mat on the back will heat the substrate and glass and probably increase temps more evenly throughout the viv. They make some that are sticky which makes them ideal for using that way.

You'll need to be careful with either solution though and keep track of the internal temps for a few days and at different times of the day to make sure they stay within a suitable range. I would take your tank readings from substrate level also or just a couple inches off the substrate, it will be much warmer near the top of the tank.

Are you using a glass top, screen top...or a mix of both? It would also help to know what day time and night time temps you are averaging right now. I find a glass top with a strip of ventilation screen or porous foam that breaths well about 1 inch wide and running the length of the top is enough to keep my humidity high, yet my glass mostly clear...You may have to play with it a bit given your climate to find the right balance between ventilation and glass over the viv.

I'm concerned that you feel you have to mist 3 times a day...that is a lot, unless you are trying to simulate a breeding season. I can mist once a day or even go a week or more in some of my tanks with no misting and still have good humidity just from moisture evaporating out of the soil. In fact my 75gal which has no frogs in it right now hasn't been misted in over a month and I drained the pond and the glass still has condensation on it 24/7 pretty much(even with screen ventilation running along the back of tank). You don't need to maintain 90% or more, around 80% the majority of the time is reasonable...if it drops below that some or goes above it no big deal, unless it drops below 70% for days at a time. 

Again like temp, take your humidity readings at substrate level or just above it. Your humidity will read much lower at the top of the tank probably....So to get 90% near the top you may have to drench everything but if you set the meter in there at substrate level or a couple inches above for a few minutes then check it you'll likely find suitable humidity without having misted (unless you have a screen top). This is all assuming your humidity gauge can be trusted, many of them are crap. If your glass has any condensation you are likely fine, if it is clear most of the time but stays fogged up for an hour or 2+ after misting you are likely fine also.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you are using a hydrometer purchased for use with reptiles, you are probably getting an incorrect reading from it... 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> If you are using a hydrometer purchased for use with reptiles, you are probably getting an incorrect reading from it...
> 
> Ed


Amen.... I forgot to say also that when you do take a reading you should seal the tank up like it would be any other time of the day and let the probe or meter sit in there for awhile so you get a true reading and not one effected by the fact you just opened the tank and let out a bunch of the humidity. Not saying you did that, but my guess is a lot of people do when not using a permanent in tank device/probe and end up with inaccurate readings.


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## HeatherW (Oct 25, 2010)

Your probably right Ed, I should have just made a new thread

The temp in the room is at about 63-65, I live on the island and its October so it gets a little cold 

With the heat mat going at all times the temp reads about 68 sometimes gets up to 70. Humidity with out misting for the last 2 days is at 83%. I am using a mesh lid covered in that clean plastic stuff you use for covering tables, way easier to work with than glass and I find it is just as effective. 

It is taped down to the lid using electrical tape and has 12'' L X 2'' W section cut out for ventilation. The glass says nice and clear for good viewing but you can still see the condensation in some areas. After misting the tank stays foggy for at least 3 hours. So I am not to worried about the humidity.

I have the heat mat connected to a thermostat with a probe that is about half way down the tank and the thermometer/hygrometer is at about the same height.

Aside from it generally being a rule of thumb, if the heat light is hooked up to the thermostat (so I dont cook my frogs) as well and the humidity remains good, are there any reasons for me not to use it?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

HeatherW said:


> Your probably right Ed, I should have just made a new thread
> 
> The temp in the room is at about 63-65, I live on the island and its October so it gets a little cold
> 
> ...


Ok sounds like humidity is good. What size viv is this? in gallons, and if not a standard size like 20h, 20L what are the actual dimensions? How many watts of fluorescent light are you using total?

I'm surprised your light and heat mat aren't heating the tank more beyond your normal house temps then that. Maybe try turning the thermostat they are hooked to up if you haven't already or it isn't maxed out...Might even try just removing it all together if you can't turn it up more, it may be limiting the output more then it should.

If you are kinda low on lighting you may get what you need by adding another day time light, or at least get some of what you need. 

As for the night light other then overheating the only other issue that comes to mind other then it possibly looking ghetto, is stressing the frogs with constant light in a frequency they can see. Most might assume a Red light typically used for herps may be better then a blue but I'm not sure if frogs are like many reptiles in their inability to see red light. There are a lot of red frogs after all and evidence of visual cues for mate selection...also I can personally vouch for some species seeing and chasing red laser light (don't shine it in your frogs eyes!). So maybe blue would be a better choice, simulating moon light (though moonlight is actually more white). Perhaps one of the infrared bulbs would be best like this.... Reptile Heating and Lighting: Zilla Ceramic Heat Emitter at Drs. Foster and Smith









If you decide to go with a sticky heatmat for the back try sticking it down low so it heats the substrate raising the temps more evenly through the whole viv and especially near floor level where the frogs are likely to be and benefit from it. Mid to high 60's at night is ok, but you want your day time temps on average in the low to mid 70's probably.


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## HeatherW (Oct 25, 2010)

Alright I will fiddle around with it and see what happens, thanks for the advice and I will keep you all posted on what I decide!


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

Really if you are worried about heat you should use LEDs... there is very little heat produced from them, and the little that is, really does not effect tank temp. Given, you are going to pay a pretty penny for them to start with, but the money they save you in replacing ballasts, lights, energy bill, and trying to keep a room cool in the summer more than makes up for it. I have two tanks that now have LEDs lighting them and the plants are doing wonderfully, as well as the frogs.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

Ed said:


> If you are using a hydrometer purchased for use with reptiles, you are probably getting an incorrect reading from it...
> 
> Ed


If you are using a hydrometer at all you have completely the wrong piece of equipment. A hydrometer is used to measure specific gravity, NOT relative humidity. I think you probably mean a hygrometer.

As to T5s giving off more heat than T8s, for linear T5 tubes this is quite false. T5s actually are much more efficient than T8s, converting more energy to light rather than heat than T8s. In my experience both the tubes and the ballasts run far cooler than T8s, even for high output T5 lighting. PC however gives off more heat thanks to the phenomena known as restrike, where light from one twist of the tube basically is wasted as it enters another twist, wasting light and creating heat. In the UK these flopped completely with aquarists, who chose to use linear T5s instead thanks to their cooler running and better use of energy. Normal compact flourescents are also less efficient than T5HOs, giving off more heat and less light per watt. This is why were possible I try to use linear T5HO 865 tubes, maximising plant growth whilst not causing heat issues when hung above my vivs and aquariums. Because they give off more light I need less tubes for the same amount of light, so again this makes them more efficient etc. Believe me this is from experience. I have a 4x39 watt T5HO luminaire that runs a fraction of the temps a single 18 watt T8 ballast and tube runs. 

Just to note, T5s and T5HOs should be run using ELECTRONIC ballasts. If you use magnetic ballasts then yes they will give off more heat, and will last for a much shorter time before burning out as well.

IMHO though lighting should be one of the last things a new keeper purchases. Monitoring equipment and fruit fly culturing equipment should be a priority. The ability to provide the correct food and environmental conditions should always be paramount in the keeping of any animal in captivity.

Oh and a tip re hygrometers, they are best used in the short term rather than left in the viv. Over time in the very high humidity of dart vivs they become less and less accurate. I have permanently mounted ones in some of my vivs, but I also keep one spare that I used to double check humidity readings periodically. Also I have found that it's best not to attach them to the glass, they read WAY too high if you do this, one of mine insisted I had 99% humidity when checks showed me it was actually more like 80%, moved it to just above the substrate and it dropped to a more accurate reading.

On the topic of LEDs, they're good so long as you aren't growing live plants. Start with live plants (as most dart keepers do) and they become VERY expensive. I have an LED tile over one of my planted aquariums, and it cost me around £300 gbp. lol It's lovely and cool running, plants love it, but that's a hefty bite from anybodies wallet. 

Regards

Ade

PS. Calling newbies noobs is a bit insulting, they don't mean the same thing at all.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

My apologies for not knowing of a definition difference between Newbies and Noobs. In my view they meant the same thing. Consider that the thread title means 'newbies' in the author's mind.

Apparently, here is what 'noob' actually means:



> Often incorrectly used in place of "newbie", a noob is someone who is not only inexperienced with - or lacks knowledge about - a given subject, but also steadfastly refuses to learn from those with more experience and knowledge. A newbie is simply ignorant, a noob is a PITA.
> Usage: That noob has been been posting in all caps for 2 months and still wonders why nobody answers his questions


So as I have not specifically directed this at anyone in particular, I hope it can be forgiven.
I meant 'newbies'.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> My apologies for not knowing of a definition difference between Newbies and Noobs. In my view they meant the same thing. Consider that the thread title means 'newbies' in the author's mind.
> 
> Apparently, here is what 'noob' actually means:
> 
> ...


Of course you can.  A lot of folks mistake noob and newbie for the same thing. I've seen some very experienced noobs before now though, they're the ones that keep using the same failing methods because they know they are right. Usually self styled guru types who love to create totally misinformed posts on the basis of their years of experience and uberness.  lol

That definition would be far simpler with "A newbie is willing to learn, a noob thinks they know everything, and will still have the same level of skill and knowledge as a newbie even after years." 

Oh and for the record, I consider myself a dart newbie, I just have a good knowledge about different types of lighting as I have used most of them at some point, and experimenting with the effects of different types on plant growth etc. Oh and you DON'T need UV for plants by the way, any good daylight light of sufficient PAR will work for plants, including most good T5HO 865s, 965s etc. UV is however good for red plants, if you look up red plants and UV you'll find a fair bit of research on the roll UV has to play in the production of red pigments. You can get the same good reds though by simply increasing the PAR levels.

I do agree with the main point here though, incandescents aren't ideal for dart frog vivs at all.

Ade

PS. One good tip I have learned that helps to stop you becoming a victim of noobs, if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it. The times in the past I, and others, have had something working really well, only for a supposed guru claim it's all wrong and do it like this, then when you try it it messes things up completely.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> On the topic of LEDs, they're good so long as you aren't growing live plants.





Wolfenrook said:


> It's lovely and cool running, plants love it, but that's a hefty bite from anybodies wallet.


A little clarification here please. Plants love it, but they're only good if you're not growing live plants? Maybe you're referring to fake plants loving it?

-Matt


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

You only quoted part of what I said, if that is all you read then it is ever likely you are confused.

To FULLY quote what I said:-

"On the topic of LEDs, they're good so long as you aren't growing live plants. *Start with live plants (as most dart keepers do) and they become VERY expensive*."

The important bit you missed in in bold there for you. As in LEDs suitable for growing live plants are VERY expensive, prohibitively so for most. As I also explained, I do have one of these units suitable for growing live plants under, plants thrive with it, it cost me around £300, or if you prefer around $600 in US money.

I really was very clear, perhaps you skimmed through it rather than reading fully?

Ade


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

For newbies I always suggest a Exo-terra compact florescent hood. A nice 2 bulb combo is great for a beginners vivarium and gives off very little heat.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed said:


> I use PC lights on top of taller enclosures (20 gal verticles) without any issues with temperatures but then my tanks have a good amount of ventilation to let the excess heat escape.
> 
> Ed


Pardon me, my ignorance is showing. I am not familiar with PC Lights. I read through the rest of the thread and no-one else asked or answered what these are. This being aimed at NOOBS and me wanted to learn something new, and a google search for PC Lights, / PC Lighting coming up very short, what are PC lights. Are you talking the cold cathode lights are are often used to light up personal computers, ie. PCs with orange, green, blue colors? Printed Circuit Lights? 

As contrasted to LED, CFL, T5, T8, T12, halogen which I do understand, what the heck are PC lights?


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## Bing The Cheeser (Oct 18, 2010)

That's a really good question Dave, and I was wondering the same thing regarding "PC". Coming from the aquarium world I would assume it to mean Power Compact, being just a different term for CFL and typically seen in reference to bulbs that are push in and not mogul or medium (E27) base.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Wolfenrook said:


> I really was very clear, perhaps you skimmed through it rather than reading fully?


Wow. A little standoffish for no reason, don't you think? 

I read your whole post, but because I was confused, that must mean I've skimmed through?

I'm pretty sure I asked for you to clarify your post and nothing else. 

Obviously your post wasn't as clear as you thought it was because someone had to ask for you to clarify what you were saying.

?????

-Matt


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

McBobs said:


> Wow. A little standoffish for no reason, don't you think?
> 
> I read your whole post, but because I was confused, that must mean I've skimmed through?
> 
> ...


Maybe you are now just been really rather rude. My post was VERY clear, you really would have to have not read it, or be none to bright, not to understand that what I said was that LEDs suitable for live plants are really expensive, whilst those more affordable are quite useless for live plants. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you just hadn't read it fully.

Regards


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

davecalk said:


> Pardon me, my ignorance is showing. I am not familiar with PC Lights. I read through the rest of the thread and no-one else asked or answered what these are. This being aimed at NOOBS and me wanted to learn something new, and a google search for PC Lights, / PC Lighting coming up very short, what are PC lights. Are you talking the cold cathode lights are are often used to light up personal computers, ie. PCs with orange, green, blue colors? Printed Circuit Lights?
> 
> As contrasted to LED, CFL, T5, T8, T12, halogen which I do understand, what the heck are PC lights?


PC stands for "power compact", they are essentially the same as CFL "compact fluorescent light"....If there is a difference I've never heard what it is.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Wolfenrook said:


> Maybe you are now just been really rather rude. My post was VERY clear, you really would have to have not read it, or be none to bright, not to understand that what I said was that LEDs suitable for live plants are really expensive, whilst those more affordable are quite useless for live plants. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you just hadn't read it fully.
> 
> Regards


Actually man, I have to say I had to re-read it a time or two to make sure I caught your meaning. I'm not trying to take sides here, nor brag but I have a 130+ IQ, have scored at least 98% on every reading comprehension test I've ever taken, (and I've taken plenty), and had an above college level vocabulary in the 6th grade...and I had to do a double take there. It does make sense but it isn't what I would call "clear". I only offer that info to suggest I may have a valid opinion on the matter. I thought your reply was a little more heavy handed then needed myself, but to be fair people on both sides of the matter seem a little quick to take offense for my tastes. Anyways no idea why I felt compelled to offer my 2cents here, but maybe it will help and we can put it behind us. No hard feelings and best wishes to both


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Wolfenrook said:


> Maybe you are now just been really rather rude. My post was VERY clear, you really would have to have not read it, or be none to bright, not to understand that what I said was that LEDs suitable for live plants are really expensive, whilst those more affordable are quite useless for live plants. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you just hadn't read it fully.
> 
> Regards


I find that misunderstanding and personal offenses can be hashed out to your heart's content in the Thunderdome section, or better yet, solved more peaceably in private messages. That spares the rest of the community reading about a fight over often inconsequential things. 

Thanks for your input on lighting, everyone.


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