# Dart Frog Connection



## Scott Richardson

Alex,
I am starting this post to give you the oppurtunity to show us your operation. Not close up pictures of tads and froglets, your operation. Just like others show their frog room.

This is a chance to show you are legit in a civil manner.

Let's keep the comments friendly so Kyle doesn't delete the thread.

So here is your chance Alex...........


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## frogparty

Id love to see it. The rest of their operation looks very professional. Nice web site, the pics of their booth at the most recent show looked great, and I know theres a few other good froggers from So-Cal affiliated with that company. Id hate for them to get a bad rap from the involvement of just one person, however dubious his rep. 

Just because they know how to use social media to their advantage means little to me. Shit, you can pay FB to promote your posts. Might as well take full advantage


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## Trey

Not sure what you guys are talking about with their rep.or whatever. Did a google search for them on the boards and the 17 page thread on then seems to be blocked...


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## Scott Richardson

trey, pm sent


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## Judy S

Not sure what you guys are talking about with their rep.or whatever. Did a google search for them on the boards and the 17 page thread on then seems to be blocked...

maybe, just maybe..there is a really...really good reason...hmmmm.....let's just think about it....hmmmm


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## Scott Richardson

What gives Alex? You have been on DB for an hour. Here is your chance to show everyone you are reputable breeders and not flipping. 
It benefits you to show your operation. It says your current activity is private messaging. Asking Kyle to remove post? Why not show everyone your operation?


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## DartFrogConnection

Scott Richardson said:


> What gives Alex? You have been on DB for an hour. Here is your chance to show everyone you are reputable breeders and not flipping.
> It benefits you to show your operation. It says your current activity is private messaging. Asking Kyle to remove post? Why not show everyone your operation?


Good Day Scott

I will be sure to post images tomorrow morning. All the lights are out right now  The Darts are sleeping.

PS. I often forget to log out of DB. Please excuses any late responses.

- Alex


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## carola1155

frogparty said:


> Id hate for them to get a bad rap from the involvement of just one person, however dubious his rep.


I'd think that this one person would be enough to give anyone a bad rap given his past... If the other people were "good froggers" they would have understood the gravity of their decision when they were making it. If they did, and went forward anyway... well, then they deserve the flak they are getting for it.


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## bsr8129

How many times are we going to beat this dead horse.


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## carola1155

Well... The horse is still here isn't it?


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## Scott Richardson

What dead horse are we beating?????

I said let's keep it civil. Maybe they are legit, maybe not. They have stated Taron is just an employee. 

If they have a breeding facility, I would like to see it. It is not a witchhunt.


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## CJ PELCH

carola1155 said:


> Well... The horse is still here isn't it?


Im about giving chances... =)


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## bsr8129

There is a thread on them every week and it either gets deleted or locked. I don't see you calling out any of the other breeders on here to show their operation. And to call them out saying you know they are online why are they not answering I don't see how that is being civil. 

I have no affiliation with DFC but since I am in so Cali. I must be in cahoots with them some how or that's how it's perceived on here.


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## Scott Richardson

Actually, I HAVE SEEN pictures of the frog room of every breeder I have always bought from. And yes, I called him out. Alex refuses to answer questions making it worse. 

Go ahead and climb down off your high horse. I don't give a shit where you live and I never said you were in cahoots with anyone. And I never read where anyone else did either.


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## Scott Richardson

Oh, who was it that made you read the post exactly?


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## Sea-Agg09

bsr8129 said:


> There is a thread on them every week and it either gets deleted or locked.


This is why people on the boards are so frustrated. There are some very controversial matters revolving around the company. The fact that they are getting locked only makes people want to know more.



bsr8129 said:


> I don't see you calling out any of the other breeders on here to show their operation. And to call them out saying you know they are online why are they not answering I don't see how that is being civil.


Many of the small breeders volunteer pics of their places out of excitement. Larger breeders with very solid reputations have no need to show their facilities. Their quality frogs and supplies speak for themselves. In the short time DFC has been around, there have been some "not so positive" reports. The past reputation of the breeders involved makes them very open to scrutiny. DFC knew that bringing on breeders like that would stir up quite a ruckus, and quite frankly should have been prepared for it. The economy is not always fair.


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## pdfCrazy

Maybe you guys need to think of this more from a bussiness perspective. Regardless of Tarons past (and most of us know about much of it), he does have significant experience. Whoever is behind DFC obviously has significantly deep pockets. You would think they would put a significant amount of research into someone before going into bussiness with them. Maybe they didnt? However, once they hitched their wagon to that horse......their kind of along for the ride. People who have significant experience with darts, especially from larger scale, for profit operations, are not exactly dime-a-dozen. I've seen pictures of some of their early set-up and breeding operation. It exists. Alex may not exist as some of you suspect, but it certainly is not a one man operation. Anyone who has managed a large collection knows it can be extremelly time consuming. I've had upwards of 130 tadpoles in various stages at one point, and that was taking me over 2 hours just to feed and change water. And that was just 6-7 different species. I had asked DFC to post pictures of their breeding operation as far back as 3-4 months ago. My own opinion is, their logn list of professionals they claim are on their time, ar simply people they have "consulted with", not employees at all.


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## Dendro Dave

Scott brought up some questions about their husbandry concerning Chytrid in another thread, and DFC answered back about the seriousness of Chytrid and etc..etc... 
*But...* they didn't actually address much of what they do, if anything to avoid it in their collection...and given some past health concerns over frogs in one of their employees care, I'd very much like to know about all that.


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## chadnc

I can relate I never shutdown my computer and dendroboard is always up and on my computer.


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## carola1155

cml1287 said:


> As a (realitively) new member, sometimes it's hard to distinguish this site between a place I come for experience and knowledge or 90210 drama.
> 
> With that being said, there seems to be a continuous effort in throwing people under the bus. And honestly, who cares. It boils down to knowing your breeder or where you're getting the frogs from. Do your research and stay clear from the sketchy people. Really, it's simple as that.


while I generally agree with this statement... The problem is that new people to the hobby don't quite understand all the important things they should look into before making a purchase. How often do we see posts around here like "hey I just got 5 azureus at a reptile show I have them in a 10 gallon with a screen top and a heat lamp, what should I feed them?" ... I may be exaggerating a bit there but you get the point. If they didn't do the appropriate research into husbandry, you can bet it was an impulse buy and they didn't do the appropriate research into their seller either.

Couple that with the fact that they are doing a very good job putting up a clean "front" with their website and facebook page... and it would be easy for someone to think "This is a good operation" without truly understanding who they are buying from and the dubious history associated with them.

That is why a lot of people that know the past are making sure it stays on topic... because they have been told of "change" many times before and it never happened.

We recently had a situation over here on the east coast where someone was basically preying on newbies that didn't have the appropriate experience to understand they were getting lied to. It sucked. It blew up. People spent good money and got sick , underage and/or unproven frogs that were sold as healthy, fully grown and/or proven. 

We don't want it to happen again. It's not about "causing drama", its about protecting the hobby and the new people trying to join it by keeping them informed because a lot of times they don't know what to look for.


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## Buddysfrogs

So where are those pictures Alex?
Buddy


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## jrodkinsey

Buddysfrogs said:


> So where are those pictures Alex?
> Buddy


They are 3 hours behind us. It is 7:30am over in the west cost.


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## carola1155

Buddysfrogs said:


> So where are those pictures Alex?
> Buddy


haha give him a break... its only 7:30 out there

*edit* jrodkinsey beat me to it!


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## Scott Richardson

cml1287 i am not on a witch hunt. I will agree Taron has claimed to have changed many times in the past over and over and gets caught smuggling, poaching, stealing, and selling sick frogs, but maybe DFC is legit and Taron just works there. 
If they are legit, it is good for them to prove it. And well, we all like frog room pics don't we?

On the other hand, if it is a holding facility and not a breeding facility they won't want us to see and know that. But if they are legit and want to make it in the mainstream hobby, a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## ZookeeperDoug

They'll never be legit as long as they "employ" Taron. All the fancy pictures, associations with other people. Doesn't matter. I really don't know why you would even want to encourage Alex/Daniel to post another PR blurb that will basically be nothing more than another for sale ad that fails to actually address our concerns. We caught them in a lie about Taron's involvement and forced them to own up to that, we've caught them in a lie about where they acquired so many Facebook likes, Daniel/Alex are still trying to spin that one. We caught them in a lie about Tarons CRIMINAL CONVICTION in Arizona, he PLED GUILTY, they tried to claim it was an expired fishing license on Facebook, that was good for a laugh. The audacity to think we would believe he has changed having been convicted in the past month? There isnt a single reputable company or institution that wants to be associated with him. People simply need to know that this company is a farce based on lies and deceit, FOUNDED, by a person with one of, if not , THE WORST, reputations in the hobby. Well keep telling people the truth until they're gone. The hobby doesn't need or want them, and I would even argue that in a way, it's future depends on making sure that Taron isn't able to prey on new unsuspecting hobbiests with his new endeavor. We have a good thing here And a responsibility to protect it.


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## Buddysfrogs

So its 10:40 there. Again I ask where the pictures are.
Buddy


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## CJ PELCH

Honestly i think ive heard enough griping over this now. Even if we all give him a chance... i think his career is pretty much shot in this field of work. Based on all this negativity. Even as eager as I am to learn more. I just dont want to know any more of this company based on everyone HOUNDING him. Im over this. My suggestion at this point. KEEP it as a hobby not a business.... I think my head will explode with all these attacks... POINT IS PROVEN...


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## NM Crawler

CJ PELCH said:


> Honestly i think ive heard enough griping over this now. Even if we all give him a chance... i think his career is pretty much shot in this field of work. Based on all this negativity. Even as eager as I am to learn more. I just dont want to know any more of this company based on everyone HOUNDING him. Im over this. My suggestion at this point. KEEP it as a hobby not a business.... I think my head will explode with all these attacks... POINT IS PROVEN...


I don't consider it griping or hounding, it's called the Truth and most can't handle the truth! The company has cancer and its just a matter time that it will surface.


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## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Honestly i think ive heard enough griping over this now. Even if we all give him a chance... i think his career is pretty much shot in this field of work. Based on all this negativity. Even as eager as I am to learn more. I just dont want to know any more of this company based on everyone HOUNDING him. Im over this. My suggestion at this point. KEEP it as a hobby not a business.... I think my head will explode with all these attacks... POINT IS PROVEN...


Then stop reading. We're going to be consistent in maintaining exposure and demanding answers.


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## aspidites73

Anyone new, or who wants to know about Taron, needs one simple tool: Taron Langhover He IS a bad person. He shouldn't be allowed to touch wildlife, much less a frog. He (Taron or whatever name he's using now) is well documented. Anyone who falls for his tricks, with the tools available to them in today's digital age, is not someone that will not be helped by any of this thread. The bottom line....there will always be Tarons, and there will always be people either to dumb to know better, or who simply don't care. You will never stop the impulse buyer. Shame on them! If they can't look at a living thing and know there are prerequisites to caring for them, that is their problem. I see a lot of emotion here! Kudos to you all! You love frogs. You love wildlife. Most importantly, you love to help the next person who asks for information. Help them! Not by bashing Taron, but by giving sound advice. Teach husbandry, picking a healthy animal, tricks of the trade. etc.. (_ad nauseum)_. Don't teach hate! It is simply not a healthy trait to foster!


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## Scott Richardson

I respectfully have to agree. Just don't click on the thread and read it. 

I don't think we will see pictures because the operation doesn't exist? I believe it may be a front for flipping frogs? 

Remember everyone be civil. If we are civil and Kyle deletes a civil thread then we know what is going on. He shouldn't delete a civil thread for any reason


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## Wasatch.Herp.Supply

CJ PELCH said:


> Honestly i think ive heard enough griping over this now. Even if we all give him a chance... i think his career is pretty much shot in this field of work. Based on all this negativity. Even as eager as I am to learn more. I just dont want to know any more of this company based on everyone HOUNDING him. Im over this. My suggestion at this point. KEEP it as a hobby not a business.... I think my head will explode with all these attacks... POINT IS PROVEN...


1. No one is forcing you to read this thread.
2. Visit their facebook page and you'll see their career is far from "shot". Regardless of where/ how they got 48,000 likes, they have them. Keeping herpetofauna is one of the fastest growing facets of the pet industry and many thousands of people with little to no experience are jumping in head first, making impulse buys. The amount of ignorance shown at that level can be insane. To put Dart Frog Connections fb likes in perspective, consider that a highly respected breeder like Shawn only has 350 likes on his page, The Frog Whisperer. This is a good example to show how tight knit the dedicated community really is. That said the community IS growing at a fast rate, but IT IS OUR DUTY TO ENSURE RESPONSIBLE GROWTH.
3. The importance of threads like these lay in the fact that there ARE inspiring new hobbyists intelligent enough to research who they are purchasing from. I agree that just bashing, with out solid evidence has no place here or anywhere. But there IS solid evidence, there IS a history of scamming.

If this thread is locked as well, then dendroboard is making a major mistake in protecting the future of the hobby. Certain posts should deleted, not the whole thread.


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## hypostatic

I think it's kinda pointless/counterproductive to keep asking questions in this manner. DFC knows about the thread. They've posted in it claiming that they would respond in a timely manner. Until they actually do, I feel like you're all just barking at wind.


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## DartFrogConnection

Thank you everyone for your patience. Here are a couple pictures of DFC's dart frog breeding room. We are building and expanding into another room as we speak. The new dart frog breeding tanks are equipped with DFC custom styled tops with fans and misting systems that are completely automated.

I will be posting more pictures on our Facebook of our facility. You are welcome to check it out.

Thank you

- Alex


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## ZookeeperDoug

Wow, I dunno if I'd have posted those.....


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## CJ PELCH

looks fine to me alex.
SO ONE QUESTION...why are you guys flipping frogs then? You seem large scale enough =/....
Mike novey said he USED TO destribute to you guys...then he stopped... sooo whats up !?


DartFrogConnection said:


> Thank you everyone for your patience. Here are a couple pictures of DFC's dart frog breeding room. We are building and expanding into another room as we speak. The new dart frog breeding tanks are equipped with DFC custom styled tops with fans and misting systems that are completely automated.
> 
> I will be posting more pictures on our Facebook of our facility. You are welcome to check it out.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> - Alex


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## DartFrogConnection

Dendro Dave said:


> Scott brought up some questions about their husbandry concerning Chytrid in another thread, and DFC answered back about the seriousness of Chytrid and etc..etc...
> *But...* they didn't actually address much of what they do, if anything to avoid it in their collection...and given some past health concerns over frogs in one of their employees care, I'd very much like to know about all that.


The health of the DFC breeding facility is vital to us and the community. We quarantine any new dart frogs before entering the DFC facility and if any symptoms arise, we will test for the fungus.

- Alex


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## jacobi

DartFrogConnection said:


> The health of the DFC breeding facility is vital to us and the community. We quarantine any new dart frogs before entering the DFC facility and if any symptoms arise, we will test for the fungus.
> 
> - Alex


Shouldn't you be testing EVERY frog that comes into your facility?


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Ladies and gentleman of Dendroboard, please allow me to lay out for you the reasons why this thread is so important and relative and not drama in the slightest.

This is a very small, niche hobby compared to the rest of the herp hobby. There are relatively few businesses that deal in dart frogs and dart frog related supplies. Certainly much less than the snake hobby for example. Even the larger companies such as Zoo Med and Exo-Terra make relatively few products for dart frogs compared to other animals in the herp hobby. 
There are a few private breeders that do attempt to produce healthy frogs, for a good price and offer some of the goods that we need to keep our charges in the best of health. 

So along comes DFC, out of nowhere with 46,000 Facebook likes. They have 10 times the number of likes of a very reputable supplier like Josh's Frogs, or Black Jungle or NE Herp. 

The question has been asked of DFC many times about their involvement with Taron Langhover. All we have to go on is their little PR spin from their company bio. To say Taron has a checkered past is putting it mildly. We know he's a flipper. We know he's knowingly sold sick frogs. He's had a former business partner spill the beans about him knowingly selling sick frogs. He's been busted on the Fauna BOI posting under a fake name extolling the virtues of one Taron Langhover. He's donated sick frogs to an auction benefitting amphibian conservation. He's been accused of peddling with rare frogs that come from a questionable (read smuggled) source. He's pled guilty to a wildlife law violation in Arizona. He's threatened multiple people on this board (including myself) with libel lawsuits. Libel? For what? Telling the truth? DFC has been accused of stealing other peoples photos of their frogs, to post on their Facebook site. Now ask yourself, is this the person you trust to buy frogs from? Is this person that DFC represents, as their "Dart Frog Expert", trustworthy? How do you know 110% in your mind that they are even breeding the frogs they're selling? You don't. Especially not without photos of their facilities you don't. I know many breeders on this very forum have extensive threads showing many of their tanks, eggs, tadpoles, baby froglets, breeding pairs. Yet nothing from DFC except advertisements masquerading as posts. How is such and "expert" with so much time in the hobby know he's raising healthy frogs if he's never done so, or done very little of it in the past. Remember a majority of the frogs he's sold in the past were flipped, not bred by him.

So how does all of this effect the hobby?
Well it's been said that only about 20% or so of frog keepers are on forums like Dendroboard. That means that 80% of the hobby are unaware of the actions and reputation of Taron and DFC. That's a shame. These are the majority of customers that DFC is dependent on. People that just buy frogs as an impulse buy, or they don't do their homework on who is a quality breeder, or their new to the hobby, or they just simply don't care. It's the people posting on this thread that are looking out for other hobbyists and the hobby as a whole. 

Of the 20% of the hobby that are on forums there is a percentage of you out there that don't care either. Shame on you. You came to these forums seeking knowledge, well here it is. Read, learn, become an educated frog keeper. Don't become a victim, a casualty of a casual attitude. 

It's been mentioned in a previous thread that there are some other reputable frog keepers that have been aligned with DFC. That may be true, or not. All we have to go on is DFC's PR spin bio page. They've not been totally honest about things so far, so whether to trust them on this is up to you. I don't know their involvement nor do I care to. Certainly knowing Taron was involved should have sent up a red flag to them. As it's been said, lie down with a dog, get up with fleas. 
So the question remains where is the information? Where is the truth? All we know is DFC certainly has the financial backing to buy Facebook likes. That's it. That's all we know for certain. That and this saying which is a truth of life, your actions today become your reputation tomorrow. 
Take a look at the reputation. 
Look past the glossy photos of frogs you wish you had, look past the 46,000 likes on FB, look past the well put together booth at the SD Reptile show. Look past the professionally put together webpage. All of things are just bought with money. It doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to actually breeding healthy frogs. So Alex?? Where are the pictures???
I retract that last statement, as Alex has just posted photos while I was posting.


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## Cfrog

Ewww, I have had my tank up for over two years and never has it looked like that, It has had the occasional mushroom and other natural grow but for a "new" business. Is that really normal?


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## DartFrogConnection

rain dart said:


> Ewww, I have had my tank up for over two years and never has it looked like that, It has had the occasional mushroom and other natural grow but for a "new" business. Is that really normal?


These are breeder tanks. We do our best not to disturb the natural growth in the vivarium we have set up for the breeding darts. This is not a new tank. Our breeder has established it for many years.

Here are more images from DFC's facility.

- Cayo de aqua
- Bi-color baby
- Morphing tub
- Tadpoles
- tadpoles room.


couple links of images from our Facebook as well.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.348565695266886.1073741845.269778826478907&type=3

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.365989523524503.1073741888.269778826478907&type=3

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.349502398506549.1073741848.269778826478907&type=3

- Alex


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## DartFrogConnection

jacobi said:


> Shouldn't you be testing EVERY frog that comes into your facility?


They do not come into our facility. We have another location where we quarantine our dart frogs.

Here is a link to a video where we kept our DartFrogs for observation.

Dart Frog Connection - DFC's: New collection in quarantine stage

- Alex


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## Wasatch.Herp.Supply

Alex - Would you be willing to post a picture of the frog room with a card/piece of paper in the shot that has the date and your name written on it? Currently, with all the accusations of shady activity (purchased facebook likes, stolen pictures), and your company's employing of Taron Langhover, I can not trust the photos you posted today to be yours. Thanks, Hunter


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## Gocubs

Man o man.


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## Boondoggle

rain dart said:


> Ewww, I have had my tank up for over two years and never has it looked like that, It has had the occasional mushroom and other natural grow but for a "new" business. Is that really normal?


Humid, well lit tanks without European or Sherman ventilation get like this after a couple months. I have a few larger tanks that are algae'd up like this on the sides, I clean the fronts. I'm not defending (or attacking DFC), but in my opinion there is nothing in that picture that's unreasonable.


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## MarkB

I hate to say it but it looks pretty legit. My only concern is who are you Alex? Have anyone on the board made personal contact with Alex? I'm sure people were at the expo last weekend. Did anyone make face to face contact with Alex at the show because Alex said he was there the whole weekend.


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## DartFrogConnection

Wasatch.Herp.Supply said:


> Alex - Would you be willing to post a picture of the frog room with a card/piece of paper in the shot that has the date and your name written on it? Currently, with all the accusations of shady activity (purchased facebook likes, stolen pictures), and your company's employing of Taron Langhover, I can not trust the photos you posted today to be yours. Thanks, Hunter


Yes of course.. here you go with your request.
Just to set the record straight, we do not purchase LIKES on Facebook. However, we do promo our post through the FB feature. If you would like to check, please click on every single person that are on our facebook page, you will see that they are all real people. Buying Facebook likes actually hurts your own business. It will end up costing you more trying to promote any promotions in the future. It is not a smart business strategy.

- Alex


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## DartFrogConnection

MarkB said:


> I hate to say it but it looks pretty legit. My only concern is who are you Alex? Have anyone on the board made personal contact with Alex? I'm sure people were at the expo last weekend. Did anyone make face to face contact with Alex at the show because Alex said he was there the whole weekend.


Hello everyone

I was at the SD show this weekend. I hope to be at the Pomona show as well. Please drop by the booth and say hi. Meet my girl friend Stacie. She is not a frogger, but she was a great help at keep me us fed through out the day with burgers and fries.

- Alex


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## Dendroguy

It looks like a well put together, and overall healthy frog room. I see no reason to continue bashing them. Taron may be on the team but that doesn't mean he supplies the frogs.

D


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## carola1155

I don't see anything wrong with the setup (except the yankees hat  ) but honestly the only thing it proves is that they aren't flipping all of their frogs. Thats fine... people seemed to have an issue believing that they were breeding anything which was kinda stupid IMO. They now have pictures up of a legitimate breeding setup. So, they are at least attempting to and probably succeeding at breeding their own stock.

However, it doesn't mean that Taron won't sell someone a sick or malnourished frog and then blame that person when their entire collection gets wiped out again. Only time will tell when it comes to that stuff... 

So I do agree that it is time to stop bickering about a lot of crap. However, I also think we have made VERY it clear that we are not interested in their "advice" or "expertise" around here. I also do not think that Alex needs to keep coming around here patronizing us with canned answers to threads that he doesn't even read or understand. Run your website, not our forum.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Dendroguy said:


> It looks like a well put together, and overall healthy frog room. I see no reason to continue bashing them. Taron may be on the team but that doesn't mean he supplies the frogs.
> 
> D


What kind of logic is this? It is in your opinion a healthy well put together frog room. I think it looks terrible, cramped, and filthy. I certainly wouldn't share pictures of it if it were my business. Furthermore, it doesn't do anything to negate the myriad of other concerns and unanswered questions.


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## Gamble

Dendroguy said:


> It looks like a well put together, and overall healthy frog room. I see no reason to continue bashing them. Taron may be on the team but that doesn't mean he supplies the frogs.
> 
> D


I agree.
Like it or not guys, but Alex has done everything you've asked in regards to the pictures.
You may not like some of their business decisions, or the pictures but he didnt dodge you this time either.
(With the pictures).


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## chadnc

Thanks for posting all the pics Alex.


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## DartFrogConnection

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Alex are still trying to spin that one. We caught them in a lie about Tarons CRIMINAL CONVICTION in Arizona, he PLED GUILTY, they tried to claim it was an expired fishing license on Facebook, that was good for a laugh.


Good day Doug

This matter is a person matter with Taron before he was hired by us. I can assure you that it was a wildlife license issue. Yes, Taron pled guilty for his lack of judgement. The fine has been paid and the record will be dropped from the website in AZ soon. It was an unfortunate situation. It's a public record, there there is no reason for us to hide it or lie about it.

DFC have been fully honest about our operation and team we have hired. I fully understand the pressure from the community. I will do my very best to keep on responding, posting and answering questions about DFC.

We can only apologize for the past and to build a better reputation for DFC.

- Alex


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## DartFrogConnection

ZookeeperDoug said:


> What kind of logic is this? It is in your opinion a healthy well put together frog room. I think it looks terrible, cramped, and filthy. I certainly wouldn't share pictures of it if it were my business. Furthermore, it doesn't do anything to negate the myriad of other concerns and unanswered questions.


Doug

This is our temporary frog room. We want to be truthful and share what is real. It is a bit cramped for the frog caretakers. But the darts are doing great and producing healthy eggs-tads. In a month time, we hope to show everyone our new facility. I promise it will be much more spacious.

What other questions do you have that I can try to address?

Thanks

- Alex


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## Wasatch.Herp.Supply

Alex, thanks for the pics and clarification. Since this thread is progressing in a civil manner, do you mind answering openly about how Taron became connected with you guys. On the website it says "Taron L. joined Dart Frog Connection just two weeks before our official website launch" Considering his history, I was just wondering how long you have personally known/ been in connect with Taron Langhover?


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## ZookeeperDoug

DartFrogConnection said:


> Good day Doug
> 
> This matter is a person matter with Taron before he was hired by us. I can assure you that it was a wildlife license issue. Yes, Taron pled guilty for his lack of judgement. The fine has been paid and the record will be dropped from the website in AZ soon. It was an unfortunate situation. It's a public record, there there is no reason for us to hide it or lie about it.
> 
> - Alex


then why did you try to hide and lie about it. You tried to tell me and several others who raised these questions on your Facebook page that it was a matter of a fishing license, which we know it isn't. So, why DID you lie? 

And while the record may be dropped, I've taken the opportunity to screenshot the entire online deposition should the need ever arise.

And while it may be a personal matter, assuming we believe that he is only an employee, it calls into question your companies judgement in hiring an individual with this in their past. Frankly, knowing that you knew about Taron's history in our hobby and he is still affiliated with you in any form calls into serious question why anyone should be comfortable purchasing frogs from anyone with such poor judgement. I can't quite fathom why anyone, let alone a startup should even remotely consider such an affiliation with Taron, when anyone with any sense at all would be running the opposite direction. This is only one of many things that raises serious suspicions about the legitimacy of your claims. 

Look, I don't ever expect you to tell the truth or stop with the canned responses. In fact, I hope you won't, because every time you tell a different story, a different lie, it just further exposes you to scrutiny and skepticism.


----------



## yellow dart frog man

Sounds and looks alright. Not saying i trust them 100% but I definitely trust them way more then i did 2 days ago. Keep us updated on your frogs and Breeding facility. Also if all of this is just cause of Taron(I know most of it is), why don't you just fire him?? You can find a lot of good other froggers to work for DFC. Im now CONSIDERING(about a 40% chance) buying a Tadpole from you. I Wish the best for you, but Definitely NOT for Taron.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Wasatch.Herp.Supply said:


> Alex, thanks for the pics and clarification. Since this thread is progressing in a civil manner, do you mind answering openly about how Taron became connected with you guys. On the website it says "Taron L. joined Dart Frog Connection just two weeks before our official website launch" Considering his history, I was just wondering how long you have personally known/ been in connect with Taron Langhover?


Btw - this is false. We have evidence that Taron was answering phones at DFC at least a month prior to the date they claim he started. Facebook posts from independent users identified Taron by name a full month prior. Explain that?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

DartFrogConnection said:


> What other questions do you have that I can try to address?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> - Alex


I'm going to ask you these questions in person someplace someday, so you will not have time to prepare a canned PR response. I want a candid answer and know I won't get it from you here.


----------



## Cfrog

ok, thank you. Mine never have but...i wasn't sure.


Boondoggle said:


> Humid, well lit tanks without European or Sherman ventilation get like this after a couple months. I have a few larger tanks that are algae'd up like this on the sides, I clean the fronts. I'm not defending (or attacking DFC), but in my opinion there is nothing in that picture that's unreasonable.


----------



## Gocubs

Given we are human and everyone in the board has made a mistake in their lives, has anyone recieved sick frogs or poor customer serviece from them since the new business has started? I have seen and heard only good things. You cant judge a business based on one persons mistakes. And it seems to me that said person is doing all they can to rectify the sittuation and move forward from thwir mistakes. 

EVeryone makes mistakes. When there is proof of them flipping frogs or selling poor quality animals leave some vendor feedback and know that people in the hobby are educated and will see the feedback. If not. Let them do what we all enjoy doing and breed frogs. 

Just my .02


----------



## Dane

DartFrogConnection said:


> The health of the DFC breeding facility is vital to us and the community. We quarantine any new dart frogs before entering the DFC facility and if any symptoms arise, we will test for the fungus.
> 
> - Alex


Dont know if this has been brought up yet, but frogs can remain asymptomatic for chytrid and any number of other pathogens for weeks or months. The triggers are usually stressors like being moved into new homes\shipping, malnutrition, and temperature extremes. Just because you aren't seeing sick frogs, doesn't mean you don't have sick frogs. Since you did mention QT, would you mind sharing a little about your protocol for bringing in new specimens? Any special treatment given to WC animals?


----------



## markpulawski

Yes my old tanks algae'd up like crazy, all depends humidity air flow etc. When I had a large collection at a zoo, their keeper wanted the tanks all greened up claiming the frogs bred better, her theory was correct because whenever she wanted them to shut down she cleaned them...and they shut down.
Alex can we get a picture of you standing on your left leg with a Ray's hat on? I don't care if the frogs are in the background, I just want to see you in a Ray's hat.
Alex in all seriousness you hired a guy that a ton of people have a real problem with, as long as he is part of your company they will never be satisfied. No matter what you post say or even do they will never let up....oops guess you realized that by now. But it's your choice, as long as the current staff is what it is expect this onslaught to continue. I for one am tired of it, lord I would assume you are too...take a step back and take a look, with all you have invested would it not make sense to fix this now? If not just understand that when your company sells 1.1 animals most people will know you mean 2, not a pair.


----------



## DartFrogConnection

ZookeeperDoug said:


> then why did you try to hide and lie about it. You tried to tell me and several others who raised these questions on your Facebook page that it was a matter of a fishing license, which we know it isn't. So, why DID you lie?
> 
> And while the record may be dropped, I've taken the opportunity to screenshot the entire online deposition should the need ever arise.
> 
> And while it may be a personal matter, assuming we believe that he is only an employee, it calls into question your companies judgement in hiring an individual with this in their past. Frankly, knowing that you knew about Taron's history in our hobby and he is still affiliated with you in any form calls into serious question why anyone should be comfortable purchasing frogs from anyone with such poor judgement. I can't quite fathom why anyone, let alone a startup should even remotely consider such an affiliation with Taron, when anyone with any sense at all would be running the opposite direction. This is only one of many things that raises serious suspicions about the legitimacy of your claims.
> 
> Look, I don't ever expect you to tell the truth or stop with the canned responses. In fact, I hope you won't, because every time you tell a different story, a different lie, it just further exposes you to scrutiny and skepticism.


Doug

It is all public record. I have no reason to defend him on something that happen before he was hired.

DFC made a decision to hire Taron based on his ability to breed. Many may have claimed he was flipping frogs, but the DFC owner saw his entire collection and productivity before making the decision to hire him. Now him being part of DFC, it did bring us a lot of heat. To be honest, we at DFC didn't realize the extreme passion behind this issue. His work at the facility has brought our breeding facility to a new level of productivity. His focus is on the breeding facility, which is doing extremely well. On the personal level, I do enjoy working with Taron and learning from his knowledge. I know this is not going to be a popular answer, but he is very focused on building a great business for us so he can support and provide for his family and his soon to be newborn.

I also know that no matter what I say here on DB will not change the damage that may have been done in the past. Only thing I can say is keep watching over us. Put us under a microscope at all times. We deserve it.

Since everyone judges DFC from Taron's past, DFC will take the responsibility to start making it RIGHT to those whom felt have been done wrong by him.

Publicly here on the board, I can tell you that if Taron wronged you in anyway, please let him and us know. DFC / He wants to make it right.

Thank you

- Alex and DFC team


----------



## Fantastica

DartFrogConnection said:


> What other questions do you have that I can try to address?


Where are you getting your frogs from?
I for one would certainly consider buying from you if Taron wasn't in your operation.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ohhhh, he has a newborn on the way and just wants to provide for his family. Well why didn't you just say that earlier?

Honestly, that play for pity and sympathy is just pathetic.


----------



## DartFrogConnection

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Ohhhh, he has a newborn on the way and just wants to provide for his family. Well why didn't you just say that earlier?
> 
> Honestly, that play for pity and sympathy is just pathetic.


Doug

You asked the question and I provided the answer.

DFC's is still good. If he wrong you by anyway. Please allow us to fix it.
Thank you

- Alex


----------



## DartFrogConnection

Dane said:


> Dont know if this has been brought up yet, but frogs can remain asymptomatic for chytrid and any number of other pathogens for weeks or months. The triggers are usually stressors like being moved into new homes\shipping, malnutrition, and temperature extremes. Just because you aren't seeing sick frogs, doesn't mean you don't have sick frogs. Since you did mention QT, would you mind sharing a little about your protocol for bringing in new specimens? Any special treatment given to WC animals?


We don't work with WC right now, but if we decide to, all WC will be fecaled and go through four treatments before being brought to the quarantine facility. everything stays in quarantine for 2-3 months.

- Alex


----------



## DartFrogConnection

Fantastica said:


> Where are you getting your frogs from?
> I for one would certainly consider buying from you if Taron wasn't in your operation.


we buy from other froggers, mainly private collection of adults and breeders. We quarantine them at our offsite facility before allow them into the main frog breeding room.

- Alex


----------



## DartFrogConnection

Wasatch.Herp.Supply said:


> Alex, thanks for the pics and clarification. Since this thread is progressing in a civil manner, do you mind answering openly about how Taron became connected with you guys. On the website it says "Taron L. joined Dart Frog Connection just two weeks before our official website launch" Considering his history, I was just wondering how long you have personally known/ been in connect with Taron Langhover?


The owner met Taron at the trade show few years back. Daniel's background is in biology and wildlife zoology. Slowly from one pair Dart Frog, it became an obsession. When his collection start to growing, Taron really helped him managed and advised him on breeding.

- Alex


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

DartFrogConnection said:


> Doug
> 
> You asked the question and I provided the answer.
> 
> DFC's is still good. If he wrong you by anyway. Please allow us to fix it.
> Thank you
> 
> - Alex


You didn't answer all of my questions did you? You pretty much ignored my first question with a non answer.

Your answer is exactly what I expected. Minus the pity ploy.

I'd be amazed if anyone want to take the risk of letting you make it right. I know given Taron's past, I wouldn't want to take the risk of getting any frogs ever associated with him. I honestly have reservations about letting anyone with any associations with him or his frogs near my collection. Short of getting money back, what exactly are you proposing? I know you already tried to buy me off, offering to send me some of your products to "test out". 

Let me say this, as a citizen of this planet, how do you plan to make it right, when it comes to the frogs Taron is responsible for smuggling out of their native habitat? How do you plan to make it right for all those frogs that died in transit? How do you plan to make it right for the damage he has done as it relates to our hobby's image in so much as he has directly contributed to the stigma of illegal collecting and smuggling? How do you plan to make it right for the animals that died and suffered in his care? How do you plan to make right the loss to our hobby that has done when new, niave froggers were lured unsuspectingly into the hobby and then left disappointed and disillusioned, never to return?


----------



## Pumilo

DartFrogConnection said:


> DFC made a decision to hire Taron based on his ability to breed. Many may have claimed he was flipping frogs, but the DFC owner saw his entire collection and productivity before making the decision to hire him. Now him being part of DFC, it did bring us a lot of heat. To be honest, we at DFC didn't realize the extreme passion behind this issue. His work at the facility has brought our breeding facility to a new level of productivity. His focus is on the breeding facility, which is doing extremely well. On the personal level, I do enjoy working with Taron and learning from his knowledge. I know this is not going to be a popular answer, but he is very focused on building a great business for us so he can support and provide for his family and his soon to be newborn.
> 
> I also know that no matter what I say here on DB will not change the damage that may have been done in the past. Only thing I can say is keep watching over us. Put us under a microscope at all times. We deserve it.
> 
> Since everyone judges DFC from Taron's past, DFC will take the responsibility to start making it RIGHT to those whom felt have been done wrong by him.
> 
> Publicly here on the board, I can tell you that if Taron wronged you in anyway, please let him and us know. DFC / He wants to make it right.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> - Alex and DFC team


So Taron is, in fact, the main breeder? People purchasing frogs can assume that it is Taron, and Taron's methods, that produced the frogs they are buying? 

I'm not sure I understand the mentality of keeping Taron on, if he is simply an employee. I'm sorry, but I simply can't swallow that he is only an employee.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Doug, you know I both like and respect you, and since leaving Facebook I have no idea about any of the conversations you've had with the "DFC team", but, I've got to tell you, you are coming off as rather rabid. Maybe take a deep breath and look at the whole thing more objectively. I'm in no way saying I support DFC, but they have shown us their breeding facility, filthy or not (remember, clean glass is like a water feature, it's for us, not the frogs), and shown that Alex is a real boy. Now, with this new offer on the table to make things right for Taron's past, one has to see that as at least a step in the right direction.


----------



## Pumilo

This is worth reading again.



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Let me say this, as a citizen of this planet, how do you plan to make it right, when it comes to the frogs Taron is responsible for smuggling out of their native habitat? How do you plan to make it right for all those frogs that died in transit? How do you plan to make it right for the damage he has done as it relates to our hobby's image in so much as he has directly contributed to the stigma of illegal collecting and smuggling? How do you plan to make it right for the animals that died and suffered in his care? How do you plan to make right the loss to our hobby that has done when new, niave froggers were lured unsuspectingly into the hobby and then left disappointed and disillusioned, never to return?


----------



## DartFrogConnection

ZookeeperDoug said:


> You didn't answer all of my questions did you? You pretty much ignored my first question with a non answer.
> 
> Your answer is exactly what I expected. Minus the pity ploy.
> 
> I'd be amazed if anyone want to take the risk of letting you make it right. I know given Taron's past, I wouldn't want to take the risk of getting any frogs ever associated with him. I honestly have reservations about letting anyone with any associations with him or his frogs near my collection. Short of getting money back, what exactly are you proposing? I know you already tried to buy me off, offering to send me some of your products to "test out".
> 
> Let me say this, as a citizen of this planet, how do you plan to make it right, when it comes to the frogs Taron is responsible for smuggling out of their native habitat? How do you plan to make it right for all those frogs that died in transit? How do you plan to make it right for the damage he has done as it relates to our hobby's image in so much as he has directly contributed to the stigma of illegal collecting and smuggling? How do you plan to make it right for the animals that died and suffered in his care? How do you plan to make right the loss to our hobby that has done when new, niave froggers were lured unsuspectingly into the hobby and then left disappointed and disillusioned, never to return?



Doug there is no need for us to keep going back and forth if there isn't going to be a signs of resolution.

To fix things, I suppose with in reason. First, what Dart Frog did you loss personally? If you have a record of it. I had no idea of your personal issue with Taron. We offered lots of frogger to test out our product so we can better service the community.

note : I do have to sign off soon... So I might not be able to right back to your response.

Thanks

- Alex


----------



## DartFrogConnection

Pumilo said:


> So Taron is, in fact, the main breeder? People purchasing frogs can assume that it is Taron, and Taron's methods, that produced the frogs they are buying?
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the mentality of keeping Taron on, if he is simply an employee. I'm sorry, but I simply can't swallow that he is only an employee.


Yes, Taron works at the DFC's breeding facility. The frogs are under his care. As you can see from our facility images, they are real. If you visit our Facebook page, we post our frog images just about daily bases.

- Alex


----------



## jrodkinsey

I have had nothing but topnotch customer service from DFC with every purchase I have made through them. Even was surprised with a free mint tadpole from DFC that is about ready to pop out his front legs. I've dealt with Alex multiple times and he has been nothing but helpful every single time.


----------



## markpulawski

So DFC dart frogs are basically coming from Taron, good info for the community to have.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

epiphytes etc. said:


> Doug, you know I both like and respect you, and since leaving Facebook I have no idea about any of the conversations you've had with the "DFC team", but, I've got to tell you, you are coming off as rather rabid. Maybe take a deep breath and look at the whole thing more objectively. I'm in no way saying I support DFC, but they have shown us their breeding facility, filthy or not (remember, clean glass is like a water feature, it's for us, not the frogs), and shown that Alex is a real boy. Now, with this new offer on the table to make things right for Taron's past, one has to see that as at least a step in the right direction.


Thanks for the advice. I feel like I've been entrusted to take this on. Especially since someone who cannot get involved has privately asked me keep the heat on. Rabid, heh, thanks, I like it, but I prefer how Alex describes me, passionate. I care about this. I guess time will have to tell as far as them making things right. I'd personally like to see them distance themself from Taron, but have serious suspicions that they could do so. If they were not affiliated with Taron at all, id have tried some of their products. Hell, if they'd been honest about Tarons involvement from the START, I MIGHT have given them a chance. What nobody here seems to know or care about is all time and effort that went into revealing the truth. Taron's name was never one their site until some of us went to great lengths to expose this. Thanks to us, they Have to deal with it, and I'm proud of that.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

DartFrogConnection said:


> Doug there is no need for us to keep going back and forth if there isn't going to be a signs of resolution.
> 
> To fix things, I suppose with in reason. First, what Dart Frog did you loss personally? If you have a record of it. I had no idea of your personal issue with Taron. We offered lots of frogger to test out our product so we can better service the community.
> 
> note : I do have to sign off soon... So I might not be able to right back to your response.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> - Alex


Way to completely ignore all of my very real concerns and questions? I want answers to those questions. What does DFC plan to do to right this wrongs?


----------



## frogparty

Pumilo said:


> This is worth reading again.


Like hes the only person who ever smuggled frogs illegally.....how many people here have Vanzolinii? Castis? Red Head Histos? Theres a lot of finger pointing that can be done in this hobby.......

Remember, everytime a new frog species gets discovered, a German or USA or Japanese travel visa gets processed....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogparty said:


> Like hes the only person who ever smuggled frogs illegally.....how many people here have Vanzolinii? Castis? Red Head Histos? Theres a lot of finger pointing that can be done in this hobby.......
> 
> Remember, everytime a new frog species gets discovered, a German or USA or Japanese travel visa gets processed....


There is quite a difference between having frogs from questionable Origins and actually smuggling in frogs, large quantities of rare frogs, and claiming those frogs were captive bred, as Taron is guilty of. Bigdifference in my opinion. And I have to question what you're getting at here. Because he isn't the only person of guilty of smuggling, we shouldn't question it? I guess I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Makes me wonder if Mr. Tsai has any rare obligates in his collection that Taron bred for him?


----------



## RichardA

I will only say this. I have been around in the herp/fish hobby for a long time. I have known flippers personally. The difference is simple, they never said otherwise! They would tell you straight up.... "I imported this" or "I got this from an importer". Never did they not have them one day, then the next say "here are some for sale produced right here". Flippers are around in all aspects of this and every other critter hobby..... just don't say you have CB anything when you are in fact just importing and selling. 

As far as the smuggling..... well that is another issue all together. Smuggling is illegal and is not the same as flipping or wholesaling in my eyes. 

I prefer to buy local. I do not like the way shipping prices have went up without the shipping service going up in care and quality. I can remember over night running around $18 with little to no issues. However I do on occasion buy from other areas and have animals shipped. I had seen DFC around and also read all the stuff being said. I feel that if DFC is REALLY trying to do right then they will, if otherwise well......oh well. I too want to see the "facility", I watched the video on the site with 1:46 of video from 3 tanks..... not enough to prove anything in my eyes. If you are flipping, fine, state it plainly on your ads and site. "Imported blah blah" $x. Do not put "CB or From our Stock".


----------



## carola1155

As i said in my last post I'll be honest and say I don't think we are going to get any further on this...

What I do want to ask is what is going to be done about DFC's general participation and pushing of their brand on this forum? 

I've taken marketing classes too... Im sure plenty of people have... It's not hard to figure out that continuing to be here and posting "helpful" things under the username "DartFrogConnection" is a fantastic method of marketing and advertising for them. Here's the problem... They have been banned from advertising on this forum because of their affiliation with Taron (which is their fault and should not change).

So, when is Alex going to start participating on this forum like the a hobbyist under his own username?

I'm sorry for calling people out here... But take a look at most of our sponsors (people that haven't been banned from it) that are also here as hobbyists:

Joshs:
The Joshsfrogs account posts their ads and posts when people have direct problems with their products (fly media, etc)
Zack posts here as a hobbyist and helps people under his own name that has been here since 2006. He does not offer help as "Josh's frogs"

NEHerp:
Mike posts here occasionally under whatever that username and it is usually just to announce sales (because he is allowed) or help people... But again he does not post under an NEHerp account

Dane, Mike Rizzo, I could go on... 

The fact is that despite being banned from advertising for good reason, as long as they continue to post the way that Alex has been trying to lately... They are in fact advertising. 

If anyone brings up DFC on the board, answer it from the DFC account... If you want to provide your "expertise" please answer it from your own account, from one hobbyist to another...


----------



## hypostatic

DartFrogConnection said:


> Since everyone judges DFC from Taron's past, DFC will take the responsibility to start making it RIGHT to those whom felt have been done wrong by him.
> 
> Publicly here on the board, I can tell you that if Taron wronged you in anyway, please let him and us know. DFC / He wants to make it right.


I feel like this is the maximum that DFC can do, isn't it? DFC is basically asking you what you want them to do to make things right...



Fantastica said:


> Where are you getting your frogs from?
> I for one would certainly consider buying from you if Taron wasn't in your operation.





DartFrogConnection said:


> Yes, Taron works at the DFC's breeding facility. The frogs are under his care. As you can see from our facility images, they are real. If you visit our Facebook page, we post our frog images just about daily bases.
> 
> - Alex


I think this is the biggest issue that people have with DFC in general. Taron is well known within the hobby for engaging in illegal activity. Having Taron on DFC's team just creates bad press. Wouldn't it be better for DFC, as a company, to not have Taron on the team? Don't you think that would show potential customers and the hobby that DFC wishes to serve, that DFC cares most about it's customers concerns, and the concerns of the hobby above all else?


----------



## frogparty

ZookeeperDoug said:


> There is quite a difference between having frogs from questionable Origins and actually smuggling in frogs, large quantities of rare frogs, and claiming those frogs were captive bred, as Taron is guilty of. Bigdifference in my opinion. And I have to question what you're getting at here. Because he isn't the only person of guilty of smuggling, we shouldn't question it? I guess I don't know what you're trying to say here.
> 
> Makes me wonder if Mr. Tsai has any rare obligates in his collection that Taron bred for him?


I'm merely stating that the outing of convicted poachers and smugglers, while he right thing to do, seems somewhat lackluster when literally dozens of people a day on here post pics of frogs from downright illegal origins. He got caught. Yes, many more do not, AND many peoe are happy to keep supporting this kind of behavior. Why not go the extra me here on DB and ban all postings of frog species for which there is no legal USA source?


----------



## Tricolor

I think I almost bought frogs from taron some years ago but he seemed like a dick so I passed. Glad I did. The yankee hat makes me happy. My tanks also have lots of algae. I clean them occasionally. the frogs don't seem to mind and thrive in them. Probably should add more ventilation but I don't because my frogs are healthy and happy.So I don't have a problem with pics. that said I personally would not buy frogs from dfc.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I got no problem with algae on sides of tanks....Many herp/amphib breeders use pretty basic setups and I have heard that visual barriers like algae on the glass reduce stress on animals. I've even seen evidence of that in my own collection. A lot of commercial setups aren't pretty...but they work. 

One thing I heard that did kinda concern me is mention that some of the tanks the breeder has had going for years. I assume that is Taron... but word is Taron has had a lot of unhealthy animals pass through his hands, so cross contamination from those old tanks and animals to new tanks/animals concerns me. We'll see how that plays out.

But to be fair...

Alex and DFC have pretty much done everything everyone has asked, and they don't seem willing to fire Taron at this point, so all we can really do is sit back and watch and see if sick animals start showing up and bad business deals start happening. Kudos to them for offering to make right on some of Tarons past deals that went bad. 

...As for the rest, if you aren't comfortable buying from them knowing who is involved and how DFC as a business has addressed the community...then don't. 

Vote with your wallets I guess. I'm abstaining for now.


----------



## btcope

Hey guys,

Figured I might as well put in my .02 here. As one of the hobbyists that Daniel approached about being involved (and one that accepted), I feel the need to explain my position. Those of you that read dart den have already seen my responses... So here's the story in a nutshell.

Daniel owns the company. He asked me if I wanted to test out products after he met me through Taron. I gladly accepted and also agreed to help out at shows now and then answering questions for beginners. Taron and I are friends. We started fishing together when he moved here, and then I got the invite to help with this new project shortly after the site went live on May 1st. For those of you that will ask me "how could you . . . ?", please, don't bother. He is a good friend, and I'm not concerned with his past. All I know is what I know since I've met him, and I've seen nothing that worries me yet.

As far as the flipping/breeding question goes... I've been to the breeding facility. I've personally spent a Sunday helping Taron place hundreds of freshly hatched tadpoles into deli cups. He is breeding frogs. That being said, there are adult frogs listed on the site. The company is a few months old... Obviously not every frog listed was bred at DFC. Alex has explained that they've purchased frogs from other hobbyists. They even purchased some from me.

Regarding illegal stuff... I've seen nothing that anyone would consider illegal. Every species that is in that facility has a picture and description on the DFC site. There are no rare obligates. There are few obligates altogether. 

Finally, I'll give you guys the promise I gave the DD crew... If I see anything illegal, any animals being mistreated, anything remotely shady going on, I'll kindly ask Daniel to remove my name from the site and ill come straight here and apologize to you all. From what I've seen, these guys are trying very hard to build a legit frog business. They are doing everything they can to please all of you. They care about the animals, and they are taking damn good care of them. Everyone has a right to their concerns and their opinions, but I for one would hope that as a hobby we can recognize a conscious effort to be open and forthcoming.

Not a businessman, not a politician, just a frogger,
Brett


----------



## Scott

Agreed - definitely longer than two weeks. Not sure how long though.

s


ZookeeperDoug said:


> Btw - this is false. We have evidence that Taron was answering phones at DFC at least a month prior to the date they claim he started. Facebook posts from independent users identified Taron by name a full month prior. Explain that?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Scott said:


> Agreed - definitely longer than two weeks. Not sure how long though.
> 
> s


Based on the customer message and when Alex initially claimed they "hired" Taron, 30 days.


----------



## therizman2

DartFrogConnection said:


> The owner met Taron at the trade show few years back. Daniel's background is in biology and wildlife zoology. Slowly from one pair Dart Frog, it became an obsession. When his collection start to growing, Taron really helped him managed and advised him on breeding.
> 
> - Alex


Am I the only one who noticed that this is nothing like Alex's typical writing... several instances of using the wrong tense, words capitalized where they shouldnt be...


----------



## Dendro Dave

therizman2 said:


> Am I the only one who noticed that this is nothing like Alex's typical writing... several instances of using the wrong tense, words capitalized where they shouldnt be...


I think other people are using the account...and frankly I don't like that. I don't like that something I say to Alex or someone else in PM may be there for others to read, nor do I like never knowing who I'm talking to on the main forum. 

If they could setup other accounts like DFC1, DFC2, etc..etc... with only one person having access that would be better IMO...but to each their own.


----------



## therizman2

Dendro Dave said:


> I think other people are using the account...and frankly I don't like that. I don't like that something I say to Alex or someone else in PM may be there for others to read, nor do I like never knowing who I'm talking to on the main forum.
> 
> If they could setup other accounts like DFC1, DFC2, etc..etc... with only one person having access that would be better IMO...but to each their own.


It is signed Alex... and they had said before they would sign it with whoever had typed it, but I think that thread has since been deleted.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

therizman2 said:


> Am I the only one who noticed that this is nothing like Alex's typical writing... several instances of using the wrong tense, words capitalized where they shouldnt be...


I've noticed this several times. There are most certainly multiple people using the account. I'm sure a mod could look into it, although it may not actually be against the rules.

For what it's worth, I've had many correspondences with Alex/Taron/Daniel/DFC just like this where one minute they are well versed in english and the next they are quite challenged by it


----------



## hypostatic

Just an observation from the pictures: there SEEMED to be lots of tadpole containers/cups, and DFC sells tads. I do believe that only reasonably healthy frogs produce eggs, correct?


----------



## carola1155

Dendro Dave said:


> I think other people are using the account...and frankly I don't like that. I don't like that something I say to Alex or someone else in PM may be there for others to read, nor do I like never knowing who I'm talking to on the main forum.
> 
> If they could setup other accounts like DFC1, DFC2, etc..etc... with only one person having access that would be better IMO...but to each their own.



All this points to more reasons why Alex should get his own account if he wants to participate here as a hobbyist... 

I've had separate correspondences with Alex and Daniel via the same DFC account but they have identified themselves in those messages


----------



## Dendro Dave

therizman2 said:


> It is signed Alex... and they had said before they would sign it with whoever had typed it, but I think that thread has since been deleted.


Aw OK, that is helpful at least


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

hypostatic said:


> Just an observation from the pictures: there SEEMED to be lots of tadpole containers/cups, and DFC sells tads. I do believe that only reasonably healthy frogs produce eggs, correct?


But also begs the question, why are they selling tads anyway? Makes very little sense from a business standpoint. I suspect that their expert frog breeder is not so good at raising tads or froglets. Given the past pictures of froglets he has sold, this is not hard assumption to make. 

No one has ever said all the frogs they sell are flipped, but now we have brett coming and confirming AND contradicting Alex's claims.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

btcope said:


> There are few obligates altogether.
> 
> Brett


Having seen the tiny emaciated pumilio froglets he tried to sell, this is probably a good thing.


----------



## therizman2

hypostatic said:


> Just an observation from the pictures: there SEEMED to be lots of tadpole containers/cups, and DFC sells tads. I do believe that only reasonably healthy frogs produce eggs, correct?


This is not correct. I have seen frogs breed themselves to death. Frogs OFTEN also lay immediately after being shipped from the stress of shipping. If they think they are close to death they may try to lay as well so that their offspring continue on. 

Many animals, including amphibians respond to being in the correct environment too... they arent like humans where they plan it out, have to support their young, etc. It is much more sensible for animals to have their offspring when they have the best chance of surviving... thus why many animals have their young in the spring in northern climates so they have all summer to grow. Also why in the wild, many frogs only breed during the rainy season when there are plenty of ponds to deposit tads in and plenty of food for the froglets to build up fat reserves for the dry season when they are not as active.

So with all of that said, no, the fact that they have lots of tads does not prove that the frogs are in a good environment for their continued health, just that they are in the environment that triggers them to breed. I would be interested to know if they keep track of how often frogs are laying and if they plan on giving them periods of rest to build back up reserves of fat and nutrients that are necessary for long term health.


----------



## kcexotics

Just my .02 
Relatively new to the hobby, all this Taron stuff happened before I ever got into the hobby.
DFC asked what they could do to remedy the situation to anyone that was wronged by Taron. The only awnser is to cut all ties with him, that simple...
Ripping someone off and trying to make it right is one thing. Taron brought unwanted legal attention to the hobby, that's how legislation gets passed. Taron has jeopardized the entire hobby, and everyone in it's right to even own a frog!
And from reading some of the BOI posts he has had second chances. Sorry DFC your not going to make that right.


----------



## Pumilo

I have stated over and over again, here on DendroBoard, that you should know your breeder. Know your breeder, know your breeder, know your breeder. I can't say it enough. If you know and trust your seller, you can trust the frogs and the lineage. It is up to each potential buyer to know his seller.
DFC has chosen hide the breeder. From the very beginning they chose to lie to me and they lied to you. By hiding the breeder, make no mistake, they deliberately misled you as to who the breeder is.
I'm pretty sure every post I've made about this subject, is to simply point out that Taron and Dart Frog Connection are tied together. I have not told anyone that they shouldn't buy from Dart Frog Connection, or even directly from Taron himself. That's a decision each person can make for himself, (I don't think my decision is any big secret). I simply think that people should be allowed to make an informed decision. As DFC has not been entirely transparent in who really breeds their frogs, I say let the people know.

To anyone who thinks I am slamming Alex, I'm not. I'll continue to point it out. Dart Frog Connection and Taron Langover are essentially one in the same. Google the name and then buy frogs from whoever you care to.


----------



## Bcs TX

One thing not mentioned is where the frogs came from that are at their "breeding facility."
My best guess is Taron.... 
Hey Taron/DFC do you have any "red galacs" left that you bought from Cindy that you told her were for your "breeding facility?" The ones you promptly put for sale on DB after purchasing from her?
I have been following this and will say: no matter what second, third, fourth..... chances you have putting thin next to deaths door frogs on display on your table at a NARBC show only tells me bad husbandry and or blind to what is a healthy frog.
Also, now banned from classifieds on frog forums..only options are to sell them at shows... 
Or to sell tadpoles over the Internet.


----------



## btcope

Doug, 

For what it's worth, this assumption was way off. There are lots of froglets being reared there as well. As far as why sell tadpoles, rearing tads is fun! People like watching the metamorphosis. People like teaching their kids about it. Did you never catch pollywogs in a pond growing up and raise them in a kiddy pool in your backyard? I sure did. I've also traded tads with friends because I like raising them. 

You seem so adamantly against Taron, but do you really know him at all? I've seen posts about skinny frogs in the past- even pictures, but I've chalked that up to being on the road to shows constantly and living in hotel rooms. Any frogger knows those aren't ideal conditions. For what is worth, he is a talented breeder. 

I can't help but feel like your vendetta is strongly driven by here say... If you're going to attack Taron, Alex, and Daniel so vehemently, shouldn't you be open and honest and elaborate on this statement...?

"I feel like I've been entrusted to take this on. Especially since someone who cannot get involved has privately asked me keep the heat on."

Being a mouthpiece for a banned member seems just as sneaky to me. Why not give these guys a break and form some of your own opinions based off of firsthand experience?

Respectfully,
Brett



ZookeeperDoug said:


> But also begs the question, why are they selling tads anyway? Makes very little sense from a business standpoint. I suspect that their expert frog breeder is not so good at raising tads or froglets. Given the past pictures of froglets he has sold, this is not hard assumption to make.
> 
> No one has ever said all the frogs they sell are flipped, but now we have brett coming and confirming AND contradicting Alex's claims.


----------



## Scott

Beth - they were orange galacts (I think they were anyhow ... ). 

s


----------



## bsr8129

Blah blah blah blah blah


----------



## Scott

So quit reading bsr8129.

DFC wants to "fix" things? Fine - they can start with a BIG apology to Cindy Dicken for Taron lying to her face.

s


bsr8129 said:


> Blah blah blah blah blah


----------



## carola1155

btcope said:


> You seem so adamantly against Taron, but do you really know him at all? I've seen posts about skinny frogs in the past- even pictures, but I've chalked that up to being on the road to shows constantly and living in hotel rooms. Any frogger knows those aren't ideal conditions. For what is worth, he is a talented breeder.


It appears as though you are implying that putting profits and traveling to all these shows over the health and well being of the animals is acceptable... Which makes me understand why you fit in at DFC...

I would imagine there comes a point where if you aren't making enough money to make a living without putting the health of the animals at risk... That you should stop and find another business because you aren't doing it right.

Also, who said Doug was speaking for a banned member? Maybe it's a sponsor that realizes touching this Taron topic is bad business (hey, I figure at least some businesses would realize it) or the person is on the mod staff and can't or chooses not to get involved.


----------



## Scott

Maybe it's a Moderator.

s


carola1155 said:


> ... Also, who said Doug was speaking for a banned member? Maybe it's a sponsor that realizes touching this Taron topic is bad business (hey, I figure at least some businesses would realize it) or the person is on the mod staff and can't or chooses not to get involved.


----------



## btcope

Sorry if that's what it looked like. I meant to allude to the fact that he's not doing that now. He is breeding frogs in one place, and they look great...

I didn't intend on getting deep into arguments here; I was just trying to provide some first hand evidence that things aren't as bad as many would have them seem.

I had an inkling about that banned member... Maybe Doug will tell us... 

Hanging around here feels like a show on discovery channel... 10% frogs and 90% ads and drama.

-Brett



carola1155 said:


> It appears as though you are implying that putting profits and traveling to all these shows over the health and well being of the animals is acceptable... Which makes me understand why you fit in at DFC...
> 
> I would imagine there comes a point where if you aren't making enough money to make a living without putting the health of the animals at risk... That you should stop and find another business because you aren't doing it right.
> 
> Also, who said Doug was speaking for a banned member? Maybe it's a sponsor that realizes touching this Taron topic is bad business (hey, I figure at least some businesses would realize it) or the person is on the mod staff and can't or chooses not to get involved.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Scott, they were red galacts


----------



## carola1155

btcope said:


> I had an inkling about that banned member... Maybe Doug will tell us...


Again... Who said it was a banned member? 



btcope said:


> Hanging around here feels like a show on discovery channel... 10% frogs and 90% ads and drama.


I'm sure nobody would mind if the lead sponsor of all that drama left


----------



## cml1287

btcope said:


> Hanging around here feels like a show on discovery channel... 10% frogs and 90% ads and drama.
> 
> -Brett


I said this early on, but my comment got deleted because I used a naughty word


----------



## Scott

Huh. 

First thing to go ... 

s


epiphytes etc. said:


> Scott, they were red galacts


----------



## btcope

cml1287 said:


> I said this early on, but my comment got deleted because I used a naughty word


Haha, you gotta use the bleeps like they do on TV. Frogging is for families.

Tom, sorry, again, it was an inkling... You guys are probably right. 

Now I feel like I'm being a mouthpiece for a banned member... Not my intention; just trying to provide some facts and data about what I've seen in the past few months. I know and respect a lot of you guys that are on the other side of this issue, and I don't want to make enemies. I'm just in a unique position that I can see firsthand what is happening and I'm trying to help out.

-Brett


----------



## CJ PELCH

btcope said:


> Haha, you gotta use the bleeps like they do on TV. Frogging is for families.
> 
> Tom, sorry, again, it was an inkling... You guys are probably right.
> 
> Now I feel like I'm being a mouthpiece for a banned member... Not my intention; just trying to provide some facts and data about what I've seen in the past few months. I know and respect a lot of you guys that are on the other side of this issue, and I don't want to make enemies. I'm just in a unique position that I can see firsthand what is happening and I'm trying to help out.
> 
> -Brett


Ive seen many F words ..S words be posted and not deleted. So what exactly determines a Bad word...Private me the answer ...cause i dont see it


----------



## markpulawski

Thought they were solid orange Galacs.


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## Bcs TX

Scott said:


> Beth - they were orange galacts (I think they were anyhow ... ).
> 
> s





markpulawski said:


> Thought they were solid orange Galacs.


They were red galacs, I remember because they breed sporadically and she had a bunch of froglets that year.

The moving frogs around causing them to get THAT skinny is Rediculous, plus he put it on his table for sale.


----------



## markpulawski

Sorry Beth but they were solid orange galacs, not that it makes much difference. Taron bought them at a show saying he wanted to work with them and had them all sold before he even left the show....of course except for the pair he was keeping, to work with.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Bcs TX said:


> They were red galacs, I remember because they breed sporadically and she had a bunch of froglets that year.
> 
> The moving frogs around causing them to get THAT skinny is Rediculous, plus he put it on his table for sale.


It was also when reds shot up in price. I almost bought them from him. I believe he also had solid orange. As I remember it, he put the ad up while he was at the show minutes after getting them.


----------



## Scott

Good to know someone else either has the same memory I do - or the same memory issues I do. 

s


markpulawski said:


> Sorry Beth but they were solid orange galacs, not that it makes much difference. Taron bought them at a show saying he wanted to work with them and had them all sold before he even left the show....of course except for the pair he was keeping, to work with.


----------



## Bcs TX

My bad, they were orange galacs...
The search feature did work today but not last night...


----------



## markpulawski

Yes Scott same page here, I remembered because it struck me what a rare morph the solid orange Galacs are and that Cindy was selling them at a show, a morph that is on the verge of being lost to our hobby. Such rare frogs in my opinion should be offered here to experienced folks to keep them alive in the hobby, perhaps Taron unwittingly did us a favor in that regard, should those frogs he sold here still be alive for one or several of our members.


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## joshbaker14t

markpulawski said:


> Yes Scott same page here, I remembered because it struck me what a rare morph the solid orange Galacs are and that Cindy was selling them at a show, a morph that is on the verge of being lost to our hobby. Such rare frogs in my opinion should be offered here to experienced folks to keep them alive in the hobby, perhaps Taron unwittingly did us a favor in that regard, should those frogs he sold here still be alive for one or several of our members.


There sure aren't any available for sale. #stilllooking

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## Bcs TX

They are here in Tx with an experienced hobbiest. Checking on the original breeding group, bet they are here as well.
Sorry for the hijack...


----------



## Trey

Holy cow, this thread has exploded. After reading about Taron or whatever chick name this guy has...  all I can say is that if ANY of this stuff had been done to me ( especially what happened to his "friend"/business partner), he would be suffering alot more than just a few Internet posts.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

btcope said:


> Doug,
> 
> You seem so adamantly against Taron, but do you really know him at all? I've seen posts about skinny frogs in the past- even pictures, but I've chalked that up to being on the road to shows constantly and living in hotel rooms. Any frogger knows those aren't ideal conditions. For what is worth, he is a talented breeder.


Seem to be? Let me be clear, so there is NO confusion, I AM ADAMANTLY AGAINST TARON.

And you go so far as to justify the condition of his frogs and him selling them, providing that as an excuse? Despicable in my opinion. If you can't do it without jeopardizing the health and safety of the frogs you shouldn't be doing this. Taron couldn't and shouldn't be involved. I mean seriously? I'd look at those pictures and go, wow, this is not good, better not get involved with someone who treats their frogs this way and who treats their customers this way by attempting to sell sick skinny frogs like that. But you came up with an excuse for him. Please, if I'm ever accused of a crime, will you serve on my jury?

Talented breeder? Meh. Remains to be seen. I've seen the frog room now, VERY underwhelmed. FWIW, I really dont think that breeding these frogs takes much if any talent. Frog are not hard. This is not difficult or challenging. Doing so with ethical and moral standards seems to be where Taron lacks talent.



> I can't help but feel like your vendetta is strongly driven by here say... If you're going to attack Taron, Alex, and Daniel so vehemently, shouldn't you be open and honest and elaborate on this statement...?
> 
> "I feel like I've been entrusted to take this on. Especially since someone who cannot get involved has privately asked me keep the heat on."
> 
> Being a mouthpiece for a banned member seems just as sneaky to me. Why not give these guys a break and form some of your own opinions based off of firsthand experience?


Not a chance.

First off, sorry you feel like your compatriots are being attacked. Sometimes the truth hurts. Deal with it. I'll continue to work to expose the truth about Taron and his company. It isn't a vendetta and they're not attacks. If they were, I'm sure I'd have been warned by a mod by now, infracted, told to knock it off, something, but instead the PMs keep pouring in, expressing support and thanks. This is an active campaign of awareness.

Second, the only banned "person" here, at issue, is the company you work for. Dart Frog Connection is banned from advertising, banned from posting sale ads, and even had to be told to stop making obvious advertisements in other sections of the forums. What does that say about them? That an entire board, its mods and officers, and the owned would tell DFC that they're not allowed to sell frogs here. Speaks VOLUMES! I mean they actually said to you, WE don't want your money for advertising even, you're THAT BAD.

I'm not a "Mouthpeice" for anyone. I'm speaking for myself, nobody else. These are all my own words and I stand by them. Reread my statement, its not that hard to understand really. I don't really care if you think I'm being sneaky or dishonest, coming from someone who works for Taron/DFC, that is comical really. 

I mean I see what you did here. You're trying to make me look like the bad guy. Its typical of some, when their crap stinks, to try and say, hey he stinks too.

Lastly, my opinions are based on the mountains of evidence against Taron. I don't need to actually have any first hand experience.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Scott said:


> Maybe it's a Moderator.
> 
> s


Mabey 




10letters


----------



## DartFrogConnection

markpulawski said:


> Yes Scott same page here, I remembered because it struck me what a rare morph the solid orange Galacs are and that Cindy was selling them at a show, a morph that is on the verge of being lost to our hobby. Such rare frogs in my opinion should be offered here to experienced folks to keep them alive in the hobby, perhaps Taron unwittingly did us a favor in that regard, should those frogs he sold here still be alive for one or several of our members.


Thanks for the correction on the Galacs. They are Orange Solid Galacs.
We have them at our DFC facility now. They just started courting for us after moving them into our new breeding tank. We hope to see eggs soon.

- Alex


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

DartFrogConnection said:


> Thanks for the correction on the Galacs. They are Orange Solid Galacs.
> We have them at our DFC facility now. They just started courting for us after moving them into our new breeding tank. We hope to see eggs soon.
> 
> - Alex


More defelction, spin, and BS!!! Way to go Alex, try and deflect this and turn it into another ad. 
So let me get this straight. You're now admitting Taron's past indiscretions, flipping, lying, and unethical dealings with these particular frogs, but you're dismissing Taron's recent conviction in a court of law in AZ on a violation of wildlife laws, is that correct Alex?

Alex, please give Daniel Tsai my deepest sympathies. It seems of all the people Taron has scammed and victimized Daniel is the biggest. Taron suckered/sweet talked Daniel into giving him a company. Just like Taron has scammed/suckered/sweet talked so many before Daniel. I guess he has more money than sense.


----------



## DartFrogConnection

Bcs TX said:


> One thing not mentioned is where the frogs came from that are at their "breeding facility."
> My best guess is Taron....
> Hey Taron/DFC do you have any "red galacs" left that you bought from Cindy that you told her were for your "breeding facility?" The ones you promptly put for sale on DB after purchasing from her?
> t.


Our owner have been collecting dart frogs for many years along the side with his tortoises and birds. In this hobby, a lot of people sell off their entire collection at one time. Over time, he has purchased many healthy collections to build up the DFC breeding facility.

As for the apology to Cindy. From what I can see it was a business transection. Cindy wanted to sell off her frogs, Taron purchased them. Taron kept the group he wanted and made the rest available to other Froggers. And just to make a correction, there were both Red Galacs and Orange Solids sold in that transection.

Cindy if you are reading this thread, Taron and DFC apologize for any misrepresentation and intent from the purchases. Please accept his apology.

I did also just posted two images of the Orange Solid Galacs from that purchased. They are doing well. We hope to get eggs soon. If I find the time today, I will take some images of the Red Galacs images too.

- Alex


----------



## Ghost vivs

Is it hearsay when it comes out of Tarons mouth? 

Taron has a complex... he wants to be the big fish in the small pond of this hobby. He said it himself " I want to be bigger than Josh's frogs". 

He has always been looking for an investor to make it to the "top"...
So after *MANY* years of trying to get to the "top" the wrong way... selling sick frogs ( seen it with my own eyes, want pics?), lying to make a bigger sale, lying to get the orange galacs (was standing next to Cindy when he lied), all the illegal ways he obtains things ( ask him what charges got dropped, people could have gotten hurt or died) , all the smuggled frogs ( you know the smuggling the one company that was bringing them in legally even mentioned...) yup he told me about those also... hidden amongst auratus. And this is just the stuff I know about... that means there is plenty more that know much more than I...

So we come to where we are now... an investor came and propped Taron up... and now it's all butterflies and rainbows... 


I say this... it takes more than money to make someone change... and personally I think he's out of chances.
Casper


----------



## whitethumb

transection or transaction?


----------



## pafrogguy

I worked with the solid orange galacts, to this date, still one of the hardest frogs for me to breed. I traded mine to Patrick Nabors and he said the same. He still has the group. And tad stage development problems with these do happen, so if you buy tads of these, be forewarned. It's a shame that someone like Taron got a group. Always disappointing when you see people like that get such rare frogs, and people that have 10-15 years of honest BREEDING experience have to go to the ends of the earth and dang near give up a kidney to get a pair of them. I still regret parting with mine as they still are impossible to find and one of the most spectacular frogs out there. DFC, if you don't want the lashing, maybe you should not have hired a frog smuggler. I know people can change, but he always disappears and resurfaces with another front or scam. For you to expect any less is simply naïve. A big healthy male pic to share....


----------



## joshbaker14t

pafrogguy said:


> I worked with the solid orange galacts, to this date, still one of the hardest frogs for me to breed. I traded mine to Patrick Nabors and he said the same. He still has the group. And tad stage development problems with these do happen, so if you buy tads of these, be forewarned. It's a shame that someone like Taron got a group. Always disappointing when you see people like that get such rare frogs, and people that have 10-15 years of honest BREEDING experience have to go to the ends of the earth and dang near give up a kidney to get a pair of them. I still regret parting with mine as they still are impossible to find and one of the most spectacular frogs out there. DFC, if you don't want the lashing, maybe you should not have hired a frog smuggler. I know people can change, but he always disappears and resurfaces with another front or scam. For you to expect any less is simply naïve. A big healthy male pic to share....


Patrick told me he no longer has them as they were to difficult to breed...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## DartFrogConnection

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> More defelction, spin, and BS!!! Way to go Alex, try and deflect this and turn it into another ad.
> So let me get this straight. You're now admitting Taron's past indiscretions, flipping, lying, and unethical dealings with these particular frogs, but you're dismissing Taron's recent conviction in a court of law in AZ on a violation of wildlife laws, is that correct Alex?
> 
> Alex, please give Daniel Tsai my deepest sympathies. It seems of all the people Taron has scammed and victimized Daniel is the biggest. Taron suckered/sweet talked Daniel into giving him a company. Just like Taron has scammed/suckered/sweet talked so many before Daniel. I guess he has more money than sense.


Rusty, I will be sure to share your thoughts with our owner. Like I have expressed over and over. DFC is a new operation. We have our guidelines and new business practice.

As for AZ, I have also address this many times and never shy away from it. The fine have been paid. It was a wildlife fishing license validation. No animals were harmed.

Taron / DFC will offer the same apology for any of the past business during with you. If you wish for us to replace the frogs that you have purchased with Taron, we'll be more than happy to replace them. I know very well that you won't want DFC's frogs. We will be happy to purchase them from your personal favorite breeder to replace and fix the past.

Please know this is not by all means trying to "buy" you or make you a fan of DFC. We understand. We can't change your history. We simply want to make a new path with DFC.

Thanks

- Alex


----------



## Ghost vivs

Bull shit! I was there. She was not selling her collection. She did that 3 years later! He lied to get them for the price he did... ask anyone if she wholesaled any frogs for resale ... unless she was lied to...

As a matter of fact I know who has the original breeders... and he just got them about 4 months ago...lips are sealed on the who but know they are in great hands!

Wow...3 years of vending with her and more being her good friend and your going to try to let Taron sneak that lie by me...

Casper







DartFrogConnection said:


> Our owner have been collecting dart frogs for many years along the side with his tortoises and birds. In this hobby, a lot of people sell off their entire collection at one time. Over time, he has purchased many healthy collections to build up the DFC breeding facility.
> 
> As for the apology to Cindy. From what I can see it was a business transection. Cindy wanted to sell off her frogs, Taron purchased them. Taron kept the group he wanted and made the rest available to other Froggers. And just to make a correction, there were both Red Galacs and Orange Solids sold in that transection.
> 
> Cindy if you are reading this thread, Taron and DFC apologize for any misrepresentation and intent from the purchases. Please accept his apology.
> 
> I did also just posted two images of the Orange Solid Galacs from that purchased. They are doing well. We hope to get eggs soon. If I find the time today, I will take some images of the Red Galacs images too.
> 
> - Alex


----------



## DartFrogConnection

Ghost vivs said:


> Bull shit! I was there. She was not selling her collection. She did that 3 years later! He lied to get them for the price he did... ask anyone if she wholesaled any frogs for resale ... unless she was lied to...
> 
> As a matter of fact I know who has the original breeders... and he just got them about 4 months ago...lips are sealed on the who but know they are in great hands!
> 
> Wow...3 years of vending with her and more being her good friend and your going to try to let Taron sneak that lie by me...
> 
> Casper


I didn't say she was selling her collection. I said, he purchased the frogs that Cindy was selling.

- Alex


----------



## pafrogguy

Connection? Her frog "connect" lol Sorry couldn't help myself


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

For the record, while Taron's conviction may be termed a "license violation" collection of animals without a license is illegal.
This is a violation of Arizona statute 17-341, which states...
17-341. Applying for or obtaining license or permit by fraud or misrepresentation; classification

A. It is unlawful for a person to knowingly apply for, or to obtain, by fraud or misrepresentation a license or permit to take wildlife and a license or permit so obtained is void and of no effect from the date of issuance thereof.

B. Any person who violates this section is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor. 

So it's not just a "license violation", it's the use of fraud in trying to obtain a license. Funny how the words farud and Taron always seem to be conjoined.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

17-341. Violation; classification
A. It is unlawful for a person to knowingly purchase, apply for, accept, 
obtain or use, by fraud or misrepresentation a license, permit, tag or 
stamp to take wildlife and a license or permit so obtained is void and of 
no effect from the date of issuance thereof.


This is what Taron Pled guilty to. So he *KNOWINGLY* applied for, accepted, obtained or used a wildlife license, permit, or tag, by *FRAUD OR MISREPRESENTATION*.

Doesn't sound anything like Taron AT ALL..... 

Can't wait to find out the specifics.


----------



## Ed

To answer some of the questions regarding Taron and Arizona, a search of the public records gives us the following 
Case Search 

What Animal Welfare court is about Proposed specialty court aims for better handling of animal-abuse cases (go down to the comment by the F&W officer) 

The regulations surrounding take... http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/regulations/ReptileAmphibian.pdf 

Now people can make an informed decision..... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

DartFrogConnection said:


> Taron / DFC will offer the same apology for any of the past business during with you. If you wish for us to replace the frogs that you have purchased with Taron, we'll be more than happy to replace them. I know very well that you won't want DFC's frogs. We will be happy to purchase them from your personal favorite breeder to replace and fix the past.


I'd actually like to encourage anyone and EVERYONE who has ever been scammed by Taron to do this. 

Make sure you support hobbiests, vendors, or breeders that actively support this site. So if for example, Taron sold you some skinny basti's that died, have DFC purchase some of SportsDoc's nice ones that he has up for sale right now. It'll be like using drug money for a good cause. Or selling drug dealer's assets for charity.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnd... you'll be helping drain Mr. Tsai's deep pockets a bit and "redistribute" some of that wealth into the hands of some reputable breeders. Maybe we can at least take advantage of them to actually get some money back for the hobby for those who were robbed, cheated, lied to etc. I'd be VERY interested to see if they actually make good on this. And if he has to pay out enough, and sees the sheer volume of complaints, maybe just maybe Mr. Tsai will stop backing Taron in this new endeavor.

Thanks for the offer "Alex"


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ed said:


> To answer some of the questions regarding Taron and Arizona, a search of the public records gives us the following
> Case Search
> 
> What Animal Welfare court is about Proposed specialty court aims for better handling of animal-abuse cases (go down to the comment by the F&W officer)
> 
> The regulations surrounding take... http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/regulations/ReptileAmphibian.pdf
> 
> Now people can make an informed decision.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed. Given the insight into the nature of that Animal Welfare Court, I think it is highly unlikely that this was simply a fishing license violation. I'm sure they wouldn't kick that over to the animal welfare court based on the article I just read. I'm even more hopeful now than ever that I get a response from the courts about the specifics in Taron's case. I've heard all kinds of rumor and an innuendo as to the exact nature of the charges.

So what say you Alex, care to elaborate on the nature of Taron's criminal background?

Doug


----------



## DartFrogConnection

pafrogguy said:


> Connection? Her frog "connect" lol Sorry couldn't help myself


LOL.. sorry for the typo 
Collection.

- Alex


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

My new friend here in San Antonio lost 5 Yellow Galacts that he purchased from Taron. How does he go about taking advantage of this offer? Sux too, cuz this guy showed up at my house, sight unseen when I moved and helped me unload all my frogs and vivariums and get everything set up. He doesn't want to be involved publicly but I'll text him with the info.


----------



## pafrogguy

Yea I agree with Doug on everyone who did get a sick, diseased, or possibly illegal(god only knows how many of these there are) frog from Taron should contact them to make good on this public statement. Talk is cheap, anyone can say they will fix it. I just don't think DFC sees the real impact he had on the hobby. We aren't just talking about 1 or 2 incidents, but several years of misrepresentation of locales, passing wc off as cb, knowingly selling frogs with chytrid (how do you replace collections this has wiped out????), and selling smuggled frogs and "washed" euro imports. Sure he may have sold some good frogs, or legal frogs in between, but that is far overshadowed by everything else he has done. How can you possibly begin to make good on that? I just don't see it. You want to be in any type of Herp field, that's your call, but CLEARLY you aren't going to be accepted back into the dart community.


----------



## pafrogguy

And sorry Alex, I do not know you and I am not attacking you.... unless you are not who you claim to be. I just think your business will be a world more successful if you remove said party from your operation. I just don't think you will ever overcome the stigma attached with Taron.


----------



## Ghost vivs

Funny thing... Taron can send PMs but wont post on this thread...

Got balls Taron...


Casper


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I lost a pair of yellow galacts from Taron. 
Alex, does this offer come with a public apology from Taron that acknowledges his willful mistreatement of the frogs and admission of all his previous "stunts"?


----------



## DartFrogConnection

ZookeeperDoug said:


> My new friend here in San Antonio lost 5 Yellow Galacts that he purchased from Taron. How does he go about taking advantage of this offer? Sux too, cuz this guy showed up at my house, sight unseen when I moved and helped me unload all my frogs and vivariums and get everything set up. He doesn't want to be involved publicly but I'll text him with the info.


Have him email me directly with all his contacts :
[email protected]
I will need the history of the purchase. Thank you


----------



## Brian317

All I needed to know is that Taron was affiliated with DFC. I will not do business with people like that or businesses where he is employed...no matter what they have for sale or deals to be had. I think it is important to get the word out to the "noobs" that don't know about him and let them make a informed choice to either support DFC or not. I feel the hiring of Taron was a poor decision...I think this would be a entire new story if he was not hired on. My viewpoint is simple and I do believe in forgiveness and "learning from your mistakes", but how many times do you want to build that bridge back up for him...only to let it get torched again and again?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ghost vivs said:


> Funny thing... Taron can send PMs but wont post on this thread...
> 
> Got balls Taron...
> 
> 
> Casper


Yep. He has PMd me a few times. Tried to convince me he couldn't be involved in Smuggling because he doesn't have a passport.


----------



## Trickishleaf

Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.
-John Stuart Mill


The crux of this issue is that DFC will probably be able to vend at shows and sell things online and be profitable, and while the people who know Taron's past may not purchase from them, others will. 
If those who have been burned in the past do not speak the truth, then all those new hobbyists will never know. DFC will market themselves and probably be quite successful. 

My issue is: given the sordid past of Taron, why has he not messaged the Admin and asked them to allow him to personally post apologies to the community? If he is truly repentant, I don't want to hear his apology from Alex (no offense Alex). That would be like me having my wife's friend apologize to her on my behalf. I'd probably get slapped.

If Taron wants to be a responsible member of the dart community, then he needs to put on his big boy pants, PERSONALLY accept responsibility for his prior actions and stop trying to spin/manipulate. 

Alex, you guys are on the back foot. You have answers for each question, but it's after there is an issue. You will not be able to win this battle unless your company takes the initiative on this front. If you guys stand by Taron so firmly, then convince HIM to make it right. Otherwise, you're just covering for the black sheep in your family.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Apparently Taron can't or won't post because DFC made him agree not to. Now why would you not want/not allow/make promise your talented breeder and dartfrogconnection expert to post here?

So how about it Alex, why did you ask the man the myth the legend not to post here? Is this the only forum where he is quashed? Why allow him at show where he can speak freely but not let him speak freely here?


----------



## DartFrogConnection

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I lost a pair of yellow galacts from Taron.
> Alex, does this offer come with a public apology from Taron that acknowledges his willful mistreatement of the frogs and admission of all his previous "stunts"?


Rusty,
Please send me all the info about the purchases to [email protected] I am begin the process to work out your lost.

There have been a lot of accusation and DFC are not privy to all the "stunts". It would be insulting for me just to say yes, we offer a blanket apology.

Allow me to take one step at the time to first to fix your dart frog situation first.

Thanks

- Alex


----------



## Halter

pafrogguy said:


> Yea I agree with Doug on everyone who did get a sick, diseased, or possibly illegal(god only knows how many of these there are) frog from Taron should contact them to make good on this public statement. Talk is cheap, anyone can say they will fix it. I just don't think DFC sees the real impact he had on the hobby. We aren't just talking about 1 or 2 incidents, but several years of misrepresentation of locales, passing wc off as cb, knowingly selling frogs with chytrid (how do you replace collections this has wiped out????), and selling smuggled frogs and "washed" euro imports. Sure he may have sold some good frogs, or legal frogs in between, but that is far overshadowed by everything else he has done. How can you possibly begin to make good on that? I just don't see it. You want to be in any type of Herp field, that's your call, but CLEARLY you aren't going to be accepted back into the dart community.


That makes me sick. I honestly cant believe that somebody can even do that. One question: How does somebody with that type of history even get employed by a company that is trying to maintain professionalism and attempting to distribute healthy cb specimens when you have someone like that handling all of the frogs.
Blows my mind man. Never will I buy from DFC


----------



## DartFrogConnection

ZookeeperDoug said:


> 17-341. Violation; classification
> A. It is unlawful for a person to knowingly purchase, apply for, accept,
> obtain or use, by fraud or misrepresentation a license, permit, tag or
> stamp to take wildlife and a license or permit so obtained is void and of
> no effect from the date of issuance thereof.
> 
> 
> This is what Taron Pled guilty to. So he *KNOWINGLY* applied for, accepted, obtained or used a wildlife license, permit, or tag, by *FRAUD OR MISREPRESENTATION*.
> 
> Doesn't sound anything like Taron AT ALL.....
> 
> Can't wait to find out the specifics.





Rusty_Shackleford said:


> For the record, while Taron's conviction may be termed a "license violation" collection of animals without a license is illegal.
> This is a violation of Arizona statute 17-341, which states...
> 17-341. Applying for or obtaining license or permit by fraud or misrepresentation; classification
> 
> A. It is unlawful for a person to knowingly apply for, or to obtain, by fraud or misrepresentation a license or permit to take wildlife and a license or permit so obtained is void and of no effect from the date of issuance thereof.
> 
> B. Any person who violates this section is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor.
> 
> So it's not just a "license violation", it's the use of fraud in trying to obtain a license. Funny how the words farud and Taron always seem to be conjoined.


I was able to obtain this actual ticket from Taron.
The ticket was issued in AZ when he was traveling from CA back home to KS. at the time.

The ticket was issued to him for having reptiles in his possession with an invalid license. I assure everyone no animals were harmed in the process.


----------



## CJ PELCH

I just want to clarify. Mike Novey Didnt sell to DFC. He sold to Taron. (NOT ANYMORE) I dont want to make it a misunderstanding.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

DartFrogConnection said:


> I was able to obtain this actual ticket from Taron.
> The ticket was issued in AZ when he was traveling from CA back home to KS. at the time.
> 
> The ticket was issued to him for having reptiles in his possession with an invalid license. I assure everyone no animals were harmed in the process.


Tells us nothin we don't already know.

And NOW were supposed to believe that it relates to him having reptiles in his possession without a license which is different from your previous statements that it was just a wildlife fishing license. Seriously do you not see how the constantly conflicting statements and failure to be forthcoming and honest up front just absolutely DESTROYS any credibility you have? 

This is assuming we believe you, which is in serious doubt considering your one remarkable consistency, lying.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Furthermore that's not the origional ticket or citation, that is the order and judgement against him. It has his attourney that was assigned him by the court. This proves that it was created AFTER the initial citation, because he was assigned an attourney for the Animal Welfare Court after his case was transferred there. Do you not understand we can see all the details and timeline of the case online? Have you even bothered to look at the detailed online step by step process.


----------



## Gocubs

Ridiculous that this man has to produce documentation of a ticket from his past for people to leave him alone. The situation is simple. If you dont want his product because of any spite or prejudices you have, dont buy from him. But telling his employer to fire him and that he is a cancer is just not right. 

The allegations are terrible and I understand that. But to publicly harras this man when he is trying to write the ship from a lapse of judgment in his past is crazy. it seems people are trying to ruin this mans life by taking aaway his career and something he loves to do. 

THe thread would not be so liked if someone was hounding your employer to get rid of you.

Not sayin. Just sayin. 

Ive never met the man or spoken to him, nor do i condone 
His past actions, but God forbid if one of you or one of your children make a mistake in your lives. I guess forgiveness and second chances would be more readily saught after then.


----------



## pafrogguy

I agree. That is def a contradiction to what was trying to be passed off earlier. 

But, I'm still ticked about the solid orange galacts though lol. (I seriously been questing for those frogs and it is irritating someone like that got them) We will see how much of a "breeder" he is with those though. If tads from those are offered anytime soon, I would seriously have my doubts about them being legit. And they do breed true solids(with an occasional all black), so if ya end up buying tads that morph into what looks like a normal orange galact, well ya got screwed.


----------



## Splash&Dash

therizman2 said:


> It is signed Alex... and they had said before they would sign it with whoever had typed it, but I think that thread has since been deleted.


they could have it set as an auto signature. But over all, seems rather a petty thing to make an issue of


----------



## Ghost vivs

Colorado river toads and rattlesnakes... how do I know this? Taron talks to much... and there is more to the story huh Taron...

I'll just say..

Good thing those rattlers didn't get out and bite someone...

Casper


----------



## whitethumb

i have a simple question. why go through the great lengths to keep an employee that doesn't have the best background? there are plenty of froggers with great reputations and great track records. what makes him so special that you're "trying" so hard to repair the bridges he's burned? it appears that he is more than just an employee.


----------



## DartFrogConnection

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Tells us nothin we don't already know.
> 
> And NOW were supposed to believe that it relates to him having reptiles in his possession without a license which is different from your previous statements that it was just a wildlife fishing license. Seriously do you not see how the constantly conflicting statements and failure to be forthcoming and honest up front just absolutely DESTROYS any credibility you have?
> 
> This is assuming we believe you, which is in serious doubt considering your one remarkable consistency, lying.


Doug

The statement stays the same. He didn't have the up-to-date license. I have done all I can here in regards to this issue.
I am sorry that I will not be responding to this issue or questions any longer.

Doug, you have already posted your personal feelings about Taron and DFC. Even though you never had any firsthand experience with us. Let's just agree to this.

We will take the action to take care of your friend's dart frog issue. Thank you for making the connection.

- respectfully ending this conversation.

- Alex


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ghost vivs said:


> Colorado river toads and rattlesnakes... how do I know this? Taron talks to much... and there is more to the story huh Taron...
> 
> I'll just say..
> 
> Good thing those rattlers didn't get out and bite someone...
> 
> Casper


Really. Can you prove this? Because I too have heard this from several sources.


----------



## pafrogguy

I seriously doubt this guy is trying to right his ship though. And this is not the first, second, or even third time he has tried to "right his ship." It has been repeatedly. 

All it takes is a group of frogs sent out with chytrid to someone with a large collection. They unknowingly expose frogs they are selling to it that go to someone else with a large collection who unknowingly exposes.... get my drift? It goes on and on, or at least can. Sending animals you know have a condition that is killing amphibians everywhere is not something to be overlooked. 

Then the selling of illegal animals as cb is another huge deal. these aren't just cases of sending someone a frog that died and not making right on it. these are things that could adversely effect large portions of the hobby. Not just a few people. And it is BS for people like Mark Pepper who actually does it the right way and put in more work than I could imagine to watch people like this come in and "one up" them by selling different locales that may be rarer but may also be illegal.


----------



## Wasatch.Herp.Supply

Gocubs said:


> Ridiculous that this man has to produce documentation of a ticket from his past for people to leave him alone. The situation is simple. If you dont want his product because of any spite or prejudices you have, dont buy from him. But telling his employer to fire him and that he is a cancer is just not right.
> 
> The allegations are terrible and I understand that. But to publicly harras this man when he is trying to write the ship from a lapse of judgment in his past is crazy. it seems people are trying to ruin this mans life by taking aaway his career and something he loves to do.
> 
> THe thread would not be so liked if someone was hounding your employer to get rid of you.
> 
> Not sayin. Just sayin.
> 
> Ive never met the man or spoken to him, nor do i condone
> His past actions, but God forbid if one of you or one of your children make a mistake in your lives. I guess forgiveness and second chances would be more readily saught after then.


Are you serious? Have you looked into this scumbag at all? This is not a matter of forgiveness or second chances. This is a matter of protecting the hobby, and pontential new comers. It not as simple as "don't like em, don't buy from em".


----------



## mindcrash

Gocubs said:


> Ive never met the man or spoken to him, nor do i condone
> His past actions, but God forbid if one of you or one of your children make a mistake in your lives. I guess forgiveness and second chances would be more readily saught after then.


In your opinion, how many chances should one get? Because from everything I can tell, this is far beyond the second.


----------



## DartFrogConnection

pafrogguy said:


> I seriously doubt this guy is trying to right his ship though. And this is not the first, second, or even third time he has tried to "right his ship." It has been repeatedly.
> 
> All it takes is a group of frogs sent out with chytrid to someone with a large collection. They unknowingly expose frogs they are selling to it that go to someone else with a large collection who unknowingly exposes.... get my drift? It goes on and on, or at least can. Sending animals you know have a condition that is killing amphibians everywhere is not something to be overlooked.
> gal.


Chyrid is not a joking matter in the hobby. Do not make such statement lightly. We are serious about the health of the Dart Frogs. All attacks we will take, but falsely accuse DFC with Chytrid is out of line.

- Alex


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

DartFrogConnection said:


> Doug
> 
> The statement stays the same. He didn't have the up-to-date license. I have done all I can here in regards to this issue.
> I am sorry that I will not be responding to this issue or questions any longer.
> 
> Doug, you have already posted your personal feelings about Taron and DFC. Even though you never had any firsthand experience with us. Let's just agree to this.
> 
> We will take the action to take care of your friend's dart frog issue. Thank you for making the connection.
> 
> - respectfully ending this conversation.
> 
> - Alex


Probably a smart move for you considering you've hurt more than helped your cause. I'm sorry too, your conflicting statements and changing stories were an easy indictment.

I'm actually happy for him that you'll make good on Taron's victimization of him and for anyone else who has been victimized by Taron in the past.

I sincerely hope that you don't continue to victimize others in the way Taron has in the past, for your sake, their sake, and the sake of the hobby. 

Rest assured though, we're still watching, I'll keep posting and sharing what I know. People started warning me two years ago about Taron. (when a mod takes the risk to pm a new unknown person not to buy from that guy, and recommends you delete your inquiry so others dont assume youre associated with them, you know its serious, so yeah, thanks boss) I promised I'd pay it forward and I have, and will keep doing so, I know I've helped several already.


----------



## frogfreak

pafrogguy said:


> All it takes is a group of frogs sent out with chytrid to someone with a large collection. They unknowingly expose frogs they are selling to it that go to someone else with a large collection who unknowingly exposes.... get my drift?


This has nothing to do with DFC, but the statement you made.

This is why people QT and swab. What you just wrote could happen to anyone who isn't QTing their frogs or swabbing for bd.


----------



## Gocubs

Ok. Someone come forward that has had their collection wiped out by a sick frog obtained from dart frog connection. And who is to say they do not put in as much work as mark? Have you been to their operation? Have you seen their frogs? Do you know one single person who has obtained a sick frog from the new company?

YOure accusing the new company of selling sick frogs, yet noone has encountered it. Has he been convicted of the non license issue recently? 

Until the new company does these things, why are they being harrased for the mistake of one individual in the past? Start the thread back up when it becomes a legitimate issue concerning the new company. Not one single employee frombyears ago.


----------



## pafrogguy

I didn't say DFC. I was pointing out what your big guy breeder has KNOWINGLY done in the past. As one person said he deserved a second chance. At no point did I say DFC. Guess I should have made it clearer. That is what Taron, your main breeder did. So why the hell should anyone think it will be different now. There is nothing out of line with posting that piece of crap's past.


----------



## pafrogguy

No one is accusing them of selling sick frogs. Sorry if it seemed like that. You can google Taron's name all day long and see what everyone is talking about. And really, comparing Mark Pepper to Taron.... I don't even want to get into what is wrong with that statement. And it has not been years since these things happened. You could search on here if it wasn't all deleted...


----------



## carola1155

Gocubs said:


> The allegations are terrible and I understand that. But to publicly harras this man when he is trying to write the ship from a lapse of judgment in his past is crazy. it seems people are trying to ruin this mans life by taking aaway his career and something he loves to do.
> 
> THe thread would not be so liked if someone was hounding your employer to get rid of you.


My only problem with this is that in the real world there are consequences for your actions. If I do something wrong I have a regulatory association knocking down my door and reprimanding me for it. I could get hit with fines and probation/loss of my licenses. Also, from that point on when I hand clients my information sheets (which is required every time I sign a new contract) they have a very clear and detailed description of any wrongdoing that I have done.

So in other industries it is possible for your life to be ruined and have your career taken away... why not in the pet trade industry when innocent animals are being treated poorly?

Taron did a lot of really messed up stuff that a lot of people here would say is grounds for losing your career... but instead he tried jumping on the back of DFC and getting right back into it. Oh but wait... he has "changed" this time... ha


----------



## Gocubs

In turn, the frogs he breeds are sold by this company. So mean it or not, your accusing the company of selling sick, illegal frogs with no case or proof to back the allegations. 

ITs like a whitsox fan telling me the sox are better than thw cubs because they won a a championship 8 years ago. Stoo living in the past and accept the individual is making an effort to clean up.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

DartFrogConnection said:


> Chyrid is not a joking matter in the hobby. Do not make such statement lightly. We are serious about the health of the Dart Frogs. All attacks we will take, but falsely accuse DFC with Chytrid is out of line.
> 
> - Alex


While not fair to insinuate the DFC has bd present in their collection, we do KNOW, that Taron knowingly sent out sick and diseased frogs n the past. Since he is your expert and breeder, what assurances do we have that:

1.) he won't do it again?

2.) that whatever ailed his collection in the past, is gone from the DFC collection now?

Since you're more than happy to post pictures, would you care to share and bd test results with us. I'm sure with such a large and expensive collection of frogs from a myriad of sources that you did your due diligence and had them swabbed. I certainly hope it isn't only a matter of swabbing if symptoms show up as was previously stated.


----------



## pafrogguy

frogfreak said:


> This has nothing to do with DFC, but the statement you made.
> 
> This is why people QT and swab. What you just wrote could happen to anyone who isn't QTing their frogs or swabbing for bd.



That is true, but I guarantee a lot of folks out there don't do this to ALL frogs they get. Hell I just bought a boat load of frogs last weekend and was told, "Don't worry about quarantine, these are all cb." I am going to do it anyways, because that is what needs done. 

And to be clear, I am NOT saying DFC is selling sick frogs. I have heard nothing of the sort. I am talking about the guy they brought on for his and I use the term loosely, "expertise." That is the guy breeding the animals, bottom line. That is the guy who offered illegal animals (or misrepresented locales) just last year. We aren't talking about forever ago.


----------



## Gocubs

Im done. He was charged and dealt with the consequences of his actions. The picture of the charge and pending results is posted. So dont patronize me with that. Im simply saying, imo, its wrong for you to publicly chastise this guy and pursue his termination. 

As ive said before. Dont buy from them if you think they have sick frogs. It is your responsibility in the end to qt frogs and test fecals anyways.


----------



## Dane

pafrogguy said:


> Hell I just bought a boat load of frogs last weekend and was told, "Don't worry about quarantine, these are all cb."


Hearing this from a vendor should be the first cue that any frogs from them NEED to be quarantined.


----------



## pafrogguy

Yea not advice to take, that's for sure. Luckily I do have a vet local that does dart fecals and treatments though.


----------



## pafrogguy

I will say this, we have def drifted off topic. Alex provided pictures of his facility, and even the cards showing it was his. I did not see a problem with the facility. But this turned way more into a get Taron thread than a DFC legitimizing thread. So to that, I owe you an apology Alex. The bottom line again just comes to what that guy brings along for your business. It is something that will follow you, even if you are making a legitimate effort. He will always take away some credibility.


----------



## Scott

I just moved the PA Veterinarian talk to the Regional/Northeast section.

Please stay (somewhat) on topic here.

Thank you.

s


----------



## hypostatic

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Since you're more than happy to post pictures, would you care to share and bd test results with us. I'm sure with such a large and expensive collection of frogs from a myriad of sources that you did your due diligence and had them swabbed. I certainly hope it isn't only a matter of swabbing if symptoms show up as was previously stated.


Are you requesting that DFC a part, or their whole collection for bd? Would this satisfy you?


----------



## carola1155

Someone must have forgotten to log out of his account and log back into the DFC account to post that as "Alex"

Remember guys: 



DartFrogConnection said:


> *Snip*
> 
> It is part of his contract to stay away from DB or DD or any forum of any kind, including our Facebook.
> 
> *snip*
> 
> - Alex


----------



## Splash&Dash

Dane said:


> Hearing this from a vendor should be the first cue that any frogs from them NEED to be quarantined.


Not looking to defend DFC here, but I highly doubt most vendors actually test their collection on a regular basis, for anything. This includes 'trusted sponsors", veterans, and hobby do-gooders.

I'm sure some do, but I highly doubt it's anywhere near as common as what is preached


----------



## Dane

Splash&Dash said:


> Not looking to defend DFC here, but I highly doubt most vendors actually test their collection on a regular basis, for anything. This includes 'trusted sponsors", veterans, and hobby do-gooders.
> 
> I'm sure some do, but I highly doubt it's anywhere near as common as what is preached


Really hope that wasn't directed at me.


----------



## Firawen

Ghost vivs said:


> Colorado river toads and rattlesnakes... how do I know this? Taron talks to much... and there is more to the story huh Taron...
> 
> I'll just say..
> 
> Good thing those rattlers didn't get out and bite someone...
> 
> Casper


Bufo alvarius' venom contains 5-MeO-DMT, a powerful psychedelic/hallucinogenic drug that is Schedule I (the most illegal kind of drug) in the United States. If he truly was busted for what you say, his shady past coupled with the fact that the toad can get you high isn't really helping his cause. If he didn't have a criminal history I wouldn't think twice of him wanting to keep that species. This _is_ just hearsay though, and I am not accusing him of planning on using the toads in that manner, I'm just saying.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Dane said:


> Really hope that wasn't directed at me.


? No, not anyone in particular. Just pointing out that it's an expense many likely avoid

edit: Just noticed you're a sponsor, so can understand the confusion. But it was a wholly generalized remark


----------



## Peter Keane

Here's my 2 cents, back in the day, you hurt this hobby you get shunned, no second chances. Offering forgiveness to someone like that will open it up for others to follow in those footsteps! My issue with DFC as an employer is that EVERY successful employer I know does even a minimal background check. They should have done their homework and they would have found about this employee. Now that they know, now what?

Peter Keane
JungleWorld


----------



## Boondoggle

DartFrogConnection said:


> Taron / DFC will offer the same apology for any of the past business during with you. If you wish for us to replace the frogs that you have purchased with Taron, we'll be more than happy to replace them. I know very well that you won't want DFC's frogs. We will be happy to purchase them from your personal favorite breeder to replace and fix the past


I appreciate the sentiment, but this is not an offer you want to make across the board. Trust me. There are quite a few of us who have purchased frogs from Taron "only once" for a reason.

I can understand why he's your friend. I've spoken to him on the phone a few times and met him a few times at shows and he is a very likable, very friendly guy. Based on those interactions alone, I like him...but he is literally at the top (well, OK...just below Aaron Acker) of a list I have of people who I will never do business with again.


----------



## Dendroguy

Firawen said:


> Bufo alvarius' venom contains 5-MeO-DMT, a powerful psychedelic/hallucinogenic drug that is Schedule I (the most illegal kind of drug) in the United States. If he truly was busted for what you say, his shady past coupled with the fact that the toad can get you high isn't really helping his cause. If he didn't have a criminal history I wouldn't think twice of him wanting to keep that species. This _is_ just hearsay though, and I am not accusing him of planning on using the toads in that manner, I'm just saying.


Poison .

D


----------



## markpulawski

More importantly after all of this was pointed out they could have said...wow, we did realize the extent of his history so we are correcting the situation and our apologies for not taking the communities concerns as seriously as we should have. This community would have applauded, forgiven and embraced a new vendor, instead an unmoving "he is our man", makes me think he is DFC's dart frog operation. So back to a previous statement I made, buying from DFC is buying from Taron, just a new name on the same face. Hopefully he has turned a new leaf and all the newbs they sell at shows will get some of it right, certainly they won't be selling into the formal community. Well at least for those leaving the hobby there is someone that will snap up the collection...and turn it and spin it and tell the prospective buyer whatever they want to hear to make the sale.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Well said Mark. I think most of us know that this is Taron's operation. He wasn't hired. The inconsistancies in Alex's statements and timeline prove this. I'm kind of disappointed by how many seem to be buying the ruse that he is nothing more than another employee. Taron is an integral and important key player, and I knew he couldn't keep quiet or off Dendroboard for a while. He has been private messaging me regularly.


----------



## Scott Richardson

Alex,
Here is my question.......

Maybe Daniel is a good guy with bad judgement. But, with Taron as your breeder, how can Daniel guarantee that Taron will not ship out sick or unhealthy frogs?

Taron has "changed" too many times to count anymore, and maybe he isn't DFC, but he is the breeder.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

So what does everyone think of Alex's offer to replace the frogs that Taron sold you? Has anyone taken him up on the offer?


----------



## JayMillz

carola1155 said:


> Someone must have forgotten to log out of his account and log back into the DFC account to post that as "Alex"
> 
> Remember guys:


Now you can fire him Alex and get yourself a clean crew at DFC...


----------



## NM Crawler

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> So what does everyone think of Alex's offer to replace the frogs that Taron sold you? Has anyone taken him up on the offer?


If it was me i would have DFC refund me the funds for all the transactions/frogs that where lost. Now that's making it 50% rite!


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## Splash&Dash

Firawen said:


> Bufo alvarius' venom contains 5-MeO-DMT, a powerful psychedelic/hallucinogenic drug that is Schedule I (the most illegal kind of drug) in the United States. If he truly was busted for what you say, his shady past coupled with the fact that the toad can get you high isn't really helping his cause. If he didn't have a criminal history I wouldn't think twice of him wanting to keep that species. This _is_ just hearsay though, and I am not accusing him of planning on using the toads in that manner, I'm just saying.


this is the type of silly speculation that makes a reasonable discussion devolve into a witch hunt


----------



## Roadrunner

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the Schedule 1 thing. It's just a government classification, no science behind it.

Drug Schedules

Drugs, substances, and certain chemicals used to make drugs are classified into five (5) distinct categories or schedules depending upon the drug’s acceptable medical use and the drug’s abuse or dependency potential. The abuse rate is a determinate factor in the scheduling of the drug; for example, Schedule I drugs are considered the most dangerous class of drugs with a high potential for abuse and potentially severe psychological and/or physical dependence. As the drug schedule changes-- Schedule II, Schedule III, etc., so does the abuse potential-- Schedule V drugs represents the least potential for abuse. A Listing of drugs and their schedule are located at Controlled Substance Act (CSA) Scheduling or CSA Scheduling by Alphabetical Order. These lists describes the basic or parent chemical and do not necessarily describe the salts, isomers and salts of isomers, esters, ethers and derivatives which may also be classified as controlled substances. These lists are intended as general references and are not comprehensive listings of all controlled substances.

Please note that a substance need not be listed as a controlled substance to be treated as a Schedule I substance for criminal prosecution. A controlled substance analogue is a substance which is intended for human consumption and is structurally or pharmacologically substantially similar to or is represented as being similar to a Schedule I or Schedule II substance and is not an approved medication in the United States. (See 21 U.S.C. §802(32)(A) for the definition of a controlled substance analogue and 21 U.S.C. §813 for the schedule.)

Schedule I

Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse. Schedule I drugs are the most dangerous drugs of all the drug schedules with potentially severe psychological or physical dependence. Some examples of Schedule I drugs are:

heroin, lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), marijuana (cannabis), 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (ecstasy), methaqualone, and peyote

Schedule II

Schedule II drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a high potential for abuse, less abuse potential than Schedule I drugs, with use potentially leading to severe psychological or physical dependence. These drugs are also considered dangerous. Some examples of Schedule II drugs are:

cocaine, methamphetamine, methadone, hydromorphone (Dilaudid), meperidine (Demerol), oxycodone (OxyContin), fentanyl, Dexedrine, Adderall, and Ritalin

Schedule III

Schedule III drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a moderate to low potential for physical and psychological dependence. Schedule III drugs abuse potential is less than Schedule I and Schedule II drugs but more than Schedule IV. Some examples of Schedule III drugs are:

Combination products with less than 15 milligrams of hydrocodone per dosage unit (Vicodin), Products containing less than 90 milligrams of codeine per dosage unit (Tylenol with codeine), ketamine, anabolic steroids, testosterone

Schedule IV

Schedule IV drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a low potential for abuse and low risk of dependence. Some examples of Schedule IV drugs are:

Xanax, Soma, Darvon, Darvocet, Valium, Ativan, Talwin, Ambien

Schedule V

Schedule V drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with lower potential for abuse than Schedule IV and consist of preparations containing limited quantities of certain narcotics. Schedule V drugs are generally used for antidiarrheal, antitussive, and analgesic purposes. Some examples of Schedule V drugs are:

cough preparations with less than 200 milligrams of codeine or per 100 milliliters (Robitussin AC), Lomotil, Motofen, Lyrica, Parepectolin


----------



## Firawen

frogfarm said:


> I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the Schedule 1 thing. It's just a government classification, no science behind it.


While that is true, it is still the most illegal schedule. The point was that it is more criminal, not that the substance is actually any worse or whatever. Schedule I is deemed by the government to have no medical purpose and the highest potential for abuse... To put that into perspective, methamphetamine and cocaine are Schedule II because you can get an uncommon prescription for meth for ADD/ADHD and cocaine is used as a local anesthetic. 5-MeO-DMT is more illegal. Worse? Probably not, but more illegal.

EDIT: We should probably not hijack this thread and turn it into a drug discussion though, so let's just drop this...


----------



## Roadrunner

Marijuana also Schedule 1. Not addictive, has medical purpose, can get a medical card(not "prescription") and lower potential for abuse than alcohol or cigarettes and won't get you in as much trouble as cocaine, meth, etc and is legal in 2 states. 
Even the legality issue is outdated.



Firawen said:


> While that is true, it is still the most illegal schedule. The point was that it is more criminal, not that the substance is actually any worse or whatever. Schedule I is deemed by the government to have no medical purpose and the highest potential for abuse... To put that into perspective, methamphetamine and cocaine are Schedule II because you can get an uncommon prescription for meth for ADD/ADHD and cocaine is used as a local anesthetic. 5-MeO-DMT is more illegal. Worse? Probably not, but more illegal.


----------



## Firawen

frogfarm said:


> Marijuana also Schedule 1. Not addictive, has medical purpose, can get a medical card(not "prescription") and lower potential for abuse than alcohol or cigarettes and won't get you in as much trouble as cocaine, meth, etc and is legal in 2 states.
> Even the legality issue is outdated.


Marijuana is like the weird exception to the rule. And I never said anything about it in the first place. I know it has less potential for abuse, and I'm really not trying to turn this thread into a "legalize it, man" discussion...


----------



## kcexotics

Firawen said:


> While that is true, it is still the most illegal schedule. The point was that it is more criminal, not that the substance is actually any worse or whatever. Schedule I is deemed by the government to have no medical purpose and the highest potential for abuse... To put that into perspective, methamphetamine and cocaine are Schedule II because you can get an uncommon prescription for meth for ADD/ADHD and cocaine is used as a local anesthetic. 5-MeO-DMT is more illegal. Worse? Probably not, but more illegal.
> 
> EDIT: We should probably not hijack this thread and turn it into a drug discussion though, so let's just drop this...


It's only illegal if you extract it from the toad for use...The toad is not illegal to own. DMT is in almost every living creature. Your brain releases it when your born, you dream, and when you die. Your walking around with enough of it in your head to make you a felon. Why even make assumptions on whether or not 'someone' was going to use the toads to commit another crime. The facts about the crimes and shady practices already done should be more than enough.


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## Roadrunner

Ok. LSD, peyote and MDMA are not addictive and aren't as much of a problem as cocaine, hydrocodon, etc. and will probably get you less time than the others also. I'm not trying to turn it into a "legalize it man" discussion either. Just showing drug scheduling is completely irrelevent and made up. Geesh....


Firawen said:


> Marijuana is like the weird exception to the rule. And I never said anything about it in the first place. I know it has less potential for abuse, and I'm really not trying to turn this thread into a "legalize it, man" discussion...


----------



## frogface

Stop hijacking 

DFC, why do you employ a breeder with animal welfare violations?
Case Search


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Stay on track, guys.

How many chances should a man have? How many times would you say Taron has attempted to "right his ship" over the last decade (the man has a history of over a decade as I recall)? 

I've had some contact with DFC. As they said, they had offered me free samples to try in my breeding facilities. Tempting offer. But ultimately I turned them down because of their affiliation with Taron. And a number of issues have been presented here in this thread. My biggest concerns about DFC, though, are two-fold: Taron is essentially running the breeding operation (I don't care how great a breeder Taron may be, that will forever be a concern for me. Twenty years down the road if Taron still hasn't screwed up, it will STILL be a concern for me at this point), and the prospect that some or all of Taron's equipment and/or frogs are being used in this project. I wouldn't accuse DFC of having sick frogs, because I don't know if they do. But I know that Taron has sold sick frogs, and the prospect of more sick frogs being sold to me through DFC, regardless of how small the chance, is not one that I'm willing to take. I take a chance when I buy a frog from anyone. I'm not going to add to compound that risk by adding to it the variable of a breeder who has been shown to exhibit bad breeding and business practices for a decade.

If you choose to buy from DFC, great, I hope it works out for you. My money will be going to those who, at the very least, I don't KNOW have offered me false information and that, to my knowledge, have been transparent from my first question. 

Joe, aka GoCubs, when you compared DFC to "Mark" I can only assume you mean "Mark Pepper." Do your research. Mark involves himself in actual conservation work, he goes INTO the rain forest to do his work. He works tirelessly to bring in new frogs to the hobby in a safe, responsible, environmentally friendly, legal way. Mark lays new ground for the hobby as a whole on a regular basis. He's not busy buying other people's collection to breed things that are already here. He certainly doesn't take the kinds of chances with his collection the way DFC has. The comparison is insulting and one that I cannot let stand.


----------



## pafrogguy

SmackoftheGods said:


> Joe, aka GoCubs, when you compared DFC to "Mark" I can only assume you mean "Mark Pepper." Do your research. Mark involves himself in actual conservation work, he goes INTO the rain forest to do his work. He works tirelessly to bring in new frogs to the hobby in a safe, responsible, environmentally friendly, legal way. Mark lays new ground for the hobby as a whole on a regular basis. He's not busy buying other people's collection to breed things that are already here. He certainly doesn't take the kinds of chances with his collection the way DFC has. The comparison is insulting and one that I cannot let stand.


I can't agree more. Putting those two in the same category is pretty offensive.


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## jacobi

Question for DFC, and in no way am I attacking or insinuating anything, I'm just curious what you have to say. With it common and proven knowledge that Taron has knowingly sold to people diseased, sick, and ill frogs in the past, and doing this multiple times, even after he was caught, what are you doing to protect your customers from him doing that again. He is after all your breeder, how do you know he's taking the proper precautions? Who is in charge of quarantine and veterinary matters? Is it Taron?


----------



## Gocubs

And who is to say that he and the people at dfc do not work hard? I did not make the comparison. Someone else ccertainly did. I simply said noone on the board has been to or seen the amount of work that goes into maintaining their collection on a daily basis. So how can you say they do not work hard? 

In The process of your linch mob the comparison was made. I simply commented on irrationality of the comment in itself, seeing as noone has seen the work that goes in to their business. So who are we to comment on their work ethic and the amount of care that goes into their program? I know neither party personally but I do know that those assumptions would offend me if they were said to me so I said something about it. Youre entitled to your opinion of what the proper way to treat someone is.


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## Scott

It's possible that we can extrapolate from who they employ in that regard.

s


Gocubs said:


> And who is to say that he and the people at dfc do not work hard? I did not make the comparison. Someone else ccertainly did. I simply said noone on the board has been to or seen the amount of work that goes into maintaining their collection on a daily basis. So how can you say they do not work hard?


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## Scott Richardson

Joe,
How many thousands of dollars did you lose because of Taron selling you sick frogs? How much work did you have invested in your setup when you lost it all because you bought from Taron? After he came back a couple years later and said he had changed and grown up and was sorry, did you take him at his word and forgive him? Were you then screwed again?

Taron has screwed many of us over during the past 15 years. Not 10, 15. People aren't speaking hypothetically here. People are speaking on actual deals. 

So Joe, if a breeder had continually shipped known sick frogs over a 15 year period all along "changing" again and again, would you buy from him? would you want your friends to buy from him?
Yes, DFC has alot of work in setting up their breeding facility. They also have a known con man in charge of it. 
I don't care about a toad or a ticket, I want to know how DFC will keep Taron in check.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Gocubs said:


> And who is to say they do not put in as much work as mark?


I dunno how this one slipped me. Good catch Jake.

Joe, are you freaking kidding me? Comparing Mark to DFC? That's just flat out insulting. I'll say it, flat out, DaRt Frog Connection doesn't put in as much work as Mark. Not even a tenth of a percent. Mark is a fine upstanding member of the community who has done so much for the hobby, conservation etc, while DFC employes a convicted criminal, theif, liar, and a smuggler. I can't believe you had the audacity to mention them in the same sentance.


----------



## curlykid

Gocubs said:


> And who is to say that he and the people at dfc do not work hard? I did not make the comparison. Someone else ccertainly did. I simply said noone on the board has been to or seen the amount of work that goes into maintaining their collection on a daily basis. So how can you say they do not work hard?
> 
> In The process of your linch mob the comparison was made. I simply commented on irrationality of the comment in itself, seeing as noone has seen the work that goes in to their business. So who are we to comment on their work ethic and the amount of care that goes into their program? I know neither party personally but I do know that those assumptions would offend me if they were said to me so I said something about it. Youre entitled to your opinion of what the proper way to treat someone is.


They may work hard, but there is just no comparison. Understory does everything that DFC does in a larger quantity, with better quality, and does so many more different things. Mark provides permanent jobs to people in third world countries who normally wouldn't be making any money, he works against illegal animal smuggling, and he works to improve the hobby back here in North America and across the pond. How can you take all of that and compare it to an overnight frog flipper who's "breeding expert" is a known criminal?


----------



## NM Crawler

Alex,

Here is my concern, being self employed for over 8 years I would never employ a person or sub out work knowing that they have a bad rap and or have a criminal record. No matter how good there work is or how much money they could make me at the end of the contract. My customers check who they let in there homes and who I have working for me. It only takes a few people to ruin your business name as you are seeing here. 

So Alex is it against the rules for your "boss" Daniel to post on DB as well or even comment on your expert breeder Taron's on going issues and why he hasn't dealt with him and all the issues that follow him? I would never ever let anyone speak in behalf of my self or my business as DFC is doing, that is just plan fishy! That's not a business owner that's a puppet.


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Joe, I don't recall saying DFC employees don't work hard. If you do think I said that, feel free to point it out. I'm sure many DFC employees, perhaps even Taron, work hard on what they do. But there is a massive difference in the comparison, and like Doug, I find it appalling that you've used the two in the same sentence. Mark takes weeks at a time to leave his home so he can continue with his work, in a way you could even argue that on these trips he's working when he's sleeping. Then he comes back and starts working on his breeding facilities in Canada. The guy doesn't stop. I find the comparison insulting because, frankly, there IS no comparison.

Like NM Crawler, I am dubious about the reasoning behind employing Taron on any breeding project. Taron is a nice guy. Like many of you who have posted here, I've had the opportunity to hold a couple of conversations with him and he is quite charismatic. But in my correspondence with DFC it was suggested (although not stated outright) that the higher powers knew about Taron's sordid past before employing him, and, without any reasoning whatsoever, they hoped the hobby would get over it. But when you've been burned for 10-15 years over and over again, you just get sick of it (have I been burned like that personally? No, but in many ways I consider the hobby my family, and I take slights to my family seriously).... It confuses me because SoCal is no stranger to froggers. There are many who LOVE their collections in that area. I know a number of people who would LOVE to get more space for their collections and the opportunity to spend someone else's money expanding their collection while having a nice, large facility to store their preexisting collection. If I were in the area, that's the only justification I would need to join such a project. The added incentive of getting PAID to work with these animals? Forget about it. I simply don't see the reasoning behind it. I don't feel like the founding of DFC was done with any attempt at foresight. I don't feel like there was a lot of research performed before diving in. And so, at least in my eyes, DFC was dead to me before it ever got started. Could DFC get my business? Sure.... But it would require them to tear down their whole project and rebuild it from the ground up without influence from notoriously nefarious froggers. But that's just me. And who am I? Without support from the rest of the hobby my opinion doesn't count for anything.


----------



## Gocubs

P18. Pafroguy:

"Then the selling of illegal animals as cb is another huge deal. these aren't just cases of sending someone a frog that died and not making right on it. these are things that could adversely effect large portions of the hobby. Not just a few people. And it is BS for people like Mark Pepper who actually does it the right way and put in more work than I could imagine to watch people like this come in and "one up" them by selling different locales that may be rarer but may also be illegal."

indeed did not make the comparison. So if you would like to comment on what I say, please read the thread entirely. And if I do noy mention your name, I am not speaking to you.

Im commenting on the assumptions and allegations that are starting to be made. Who are you to compare 2 people? Have you been to dfc and seen how hard they work? Do you know what goes into their operation?

There is an appropriate way to handle a situation like this and openly bashing an individual and a corporation on a punlic forum IMO is not the way. Comment in vendor feedback, dont spend money there and move on. There is a line between commenting constructively and being offensive. 

I am personally on your side and was warned appropriately in private of the matter at hand. Which is the right way. But when someone is being mistreated and offended openly, I will not sit idol and not comment . But as I mentioned, we are all free to determine what we feel is the appropriate way to speak about and treat another human being.


----------



## therizman2

I think many will agree with my statement that this horse has been beaten to death... a few times. 

A vast majority of the members do not approve of who DFC has chosen as their breeder and because of this will choose to spend their money else where. DFC has listened to the concerns, feels that Taron is still the appropriate choice for their operation, and is choosing to move forward with him in charge of their breeding operation for the time being. 

Whether or not you guys like Alex, you have to have at least a little respect for the way that he has handled all of this. If you were put in charge of PR for a company, and almost every single person who posted in a thread that is now 23 pages long with more than 12K views was against you, and openly bashing you, your company, your friends, I doubt everyone would have stayed as calm as Alex has. He hasnt made any personal attacks, has answered questions (whether or not you like the answer is not the point, he has addressed all of the questions for the most part - a few missed in the last pages but he hasnt been online and it is the weekend after all), and he has stayed seemingly calm and cool the whole time.

I am in no way saying I agree or disagree with their practices, I have my opinion ,but it is that, my opinion. I just think that this has really gone on long enough, if this thread is left open, it will be there for people who Google Taron, or DFC, etc and they can make their own choice. Any *smart* consumer looks up reviews on companies or asks around before making a big purchase typically. In the end, from my view, DFC is yet to do anything dramatically wrong in this business except in the eyes of many hiring Taron.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Gocubs said:


> indeed did not make the comparison. So if you would like to comment on what I say, please read the thread entirely. And if I do noy mention your name, I am not speaking to you.


Last I checked this is an open forum. We'll feel free to comment on any anything you say wether you're speaking to us or not.



> There is an appropriate way to handle a situation like this and openly bashing an individual and a corporation on a punlic forum IMO is not the way. Comment in vendor feedback, dont spend money there and move on. There is a line between commenting constructively and being offensive.


We're exposing the truth about them, who they've hired, that they're willing to lie and change their story as we uncover more details. The truth is bad, it hurts them and their reputation but they are facts about them.



> I am personally on your side and was warned appropriately in private of the matter at hand. Which is the right way. But when someone is being mistreated and offended openly, I will not sit idol and not comment . But as I mentioned, we are all free to determine what we feel is the appropriate way to speak about and treat another human being.


By who? Them? A mod? One of their paties? I've probably been one of the more rabid... errr I mean passionate and not one single person has told me to stop or that I've crossed the line. On the contrary, I've received a dozen texts, emailsm and private messages expressing thanks and appreciation for me and others who are keeping the heat on.

We will not sit idol while someone like Taron attempts to get over yet again on our hobby. He's done enough damage, had enough "second chances". 15 years of victimization and transgressions are bad enough.


----------



## therizman2

And I am sure someone is going to say they have been less than transparent with who they are actually employing... well it is a private company so they have that option. Whether or not I approve of that is not the matter at hand, or even if other members approve or disapprove of that action, it is what it is and that is their choice. I dont see members interrogating other companies who actually are sponsors on here of who their employees are, what experience they have in breeding frogs, etc. 

Again, not taking sides, but an informed consumer making a purchase should do research and in the end make their own decision.


----------



## Roadrunner

If they did compare him to Mark, they just lost any shred of credibility.


SmackoftheGods said:


> Joe, aka GoCubs, when you compared DFC to "Mark" I can only assume you mean "Mark Pepper." Do your research. Mark involves himself in actual conservation work, he goes INTO the rain forest to do his work. He works tirelessly to bring in new frogs to the hobby in a safe, responsible, environmentally friendly, legal way. Mark lays new ground for the hobby as a whole on a regular basis. He's not busy buying other people's collection to breed things that are already here. He certainly doesn't take the kinds of chances with his collection the way DFC has. The comparison is insulting and one that I cannot let stand.


----------



## jacobi

All the arguing about who's right for arguing what is kind of taking away from what I think many will agree is an important question. Can we please keep the vitriole and pitchforks to a minimim until this question is answered? While many of you have expressed concerns, the fact is that nothing you say here will make DFC change who they have hired. The points have been made, anybody smart enough to research a company before buying will find this thread and it's opinions. Personally, I couldn't care less about who hires who, anybody with half a brain researches something before they buy it, if they aren't the kind of person to do that, there's no point going around and around in circles, the facts are here for people to read. The concern that I personally have, as a consumer, is how will DFC guarantee that they are not selling diseased frogs or releasing chytrid or other diseases from their facility into the environment? 




jacobi said:


> Question for DFC, and in no way am I attacking or insinuating anything, I'm just curious what you have to say. With it common and proven knowledge that Taron has knowingly sold to people diseased, sick, and ill frogs in the past, and doing this multiple times, even after he was caught, what are you doing to protect your customers from him doing that again. He is after all your breeder, how do you know he's taking the proper precautions? Who is in charge of quarantine and veterinary matters? Is it Taron?


----------



## Peter Keane

frogface said:


> Stop hijacking
> 
> DFC, why do you employ a breeder with animal welfare violations?
> Case Search


2012 Arizona Revised Statutes
Title 17 Game and Fish
17-341 Violation; classification

Universal Citation: AZ Rev Stat § 17-341 (through 2nd Reg Sess. 50th Leg. 2012)
17-341. Violation; classification
A. It is unlawful for a person to knowingly purchase, apply for, accept, obtain or use, by fraud or misrepresentation a license, permit, tag or stamp to take wildlife and a license or permit so obtained is void and of no effect from the date of issuance thereof.
B. Any person who violates this section is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor.


----------



## carola1155

Gocubs said:


> There is an appropriate way to handle a situation like this and openly bashing an individual and a corporation on a punlic forum IMO is not the way. Comment in vendor feedback, dont spend money there and move on. There is a line between commenting constructively and being offensive.


The only problem with the vendor feedback thing is that you have to have a direct dealing with the vendor before posting. This is what lead to problems over on the east coast a few months ago. A few of us knew what the guy was doing and that his frogs were not good... But we weren't able to leave feedback because we obviously had no interest in actually making a purchase from him. You can't just post "saw his frogs at a show and they looked really skinny and malnourished". You'd have to actually buy from him.

So, unless the powers that be will allow people to post past dealings with Taron on the feedback thread (which I doubt will happen) people are left voicing things in threads like this that get way off topic and out of control the way this has.


----------



## Scott

I do believe the thread has taken its course and should be closed now.

s


----------



## Scott

A last response from DFC:



> Good Day everyone
> 
> I just want to let this concern community know that I will not be able to be as active DB for about 8 days. I am traveling out of country. I will do my best to check back online.
> 
> There seem to be a lot of same questions that keeps coming up.
> 
> Let me try to address them here one more time :
> 
> 1. Yes, DFC has hired Taron to be our breeder. He does run our breeding facility. We have posted already some images of our temporarily frog room. A new larger one is being build. We will be sure to post them in the near future.
> 
> 2. Taron was officially hired 2 weeks before our DFC launch the website. No, it is not possible for Taron to have been answering phones for DFC before that because DFC did not receive our 888 phone number with the spelling of FROG as our last 4 digits until 3 days before we launched the website.
> 
> 3. AZ court case : The case is a personal matter that does not reflect DFC's current operation. Taron have taken the responsibility, pled guilty for not having a proper up-to-date permit / fishing license while in possession of few species of reptile. We have also posted the original ticket in an earlier post for you to see.
> 
> 3. Why did DFC hire Taron :
> The owner, Daniel and Taron have known each other for over 3 years. He knows him very well on a personal level. Through that time, Taron helped him built up this own personal collection that consist of over 20 pairs of Dart Frogs. When Daniel decided to take his passion and obsession into a business, he found Taron's breeding ability to be an asset to the new company.
> 
> 4. We know that many of people disagree with DFC's decision due to the past histories with Taron. Moving forward, we can only promise that DFC is a new operation with new company corporate guidelines and rules. We will do our very best to ensure each and every persons that buys from us will get products at great pricing and most importantly healthy animals. As you can see from the size of our operation, we are very serious about this business and YES we will keep our staff in check.
> 
> 5. DartFrog Connection does not pay for fake LIKES to gain more fans on Facebook. That would defeat the whole purchases of our online marketing strategy. It would cost us more to reach out to our real customers. We have been asked how our Like can be real because our most popular region was Ecuador. Today, it actually changed to Peru. We do not get to chose where the LIKES come from. We simply post what we think what people will LIKE.
> 
> We were as shocked as anyone else as the popularity of page kept on growing.
> What our FB LIKES tells us is that this community is under represented in the social media.
> 
> 
> 6. We recognize that it was foolish to think we can hire someone in this community and not take on his personal history as part of our new company reputation. Therefore, I am in process resolving issues that some individuals had in the past.
> 
> a. I have already reached out to RUSTY to please contact us directly at [email protected].
> 
> b. I have requested Doug to reach out to his friend to contact us as well.
> 
> We know it’s not possible to change something. We will try out best. Allow us the time to take care some of them properly.
> 
> Lastly, DFC, the owner and I have learned a lot in these last few weeks. We got to really see the passion in this community and how important it is.
> 
> On behalf of DFC, the owner, Daniel and I want to apologize for our lack of appreciation and understanding of it.
> 
> We can only hope that you will give us a chance to have a firsthand experience with us. For some, we know that is a long shot. We do understand if you chose not to do business with us. The great thing about this community is that there are lots of other options.
> 
> In the mean time, as a company, DFC will keep moving forward and we will do our best at serving the ones that will give us a chance and try to change your perspective through good products and healthy Dart Frogs.
> 
> - Alex
> 
> PS. Thank you, Scott, Rusty, Tom, Doug, Peter, Dane and Mike for keeping the pressure on DFC. We will do our best not to disappoint.


----------



## Scott

Because DFC insisted on the "Last Word" - we are opening this back up.

It *will* get closed again most likely - and definitely if folks start resorting to sniping or general unpleasantness.

s


Scott said:


> I do believe the thread has taken its course and should be closed now.
> 
> s


----------



## Pumilo

Thank you Scott, there was something in their "one last reply" that, well, I'll be polite. It irked me just a wee little bit. Due to the nature of how their reply was left, I cannot use the quote function, but please, check it. He really said it.

Alex -- _"We do understand if you chose not to do business with us. The great thing about this community is that there are lots of other options."_

Is it just me, or does that seem just a little bit like thumbing his nose at the hobby in general? 
I'll tell you how it reads to me. They don't care about the dart frog community. He is stating that there are plenty of other fish in the ocean. He really doesn't care about us because there are plenty of other suckers out there to make a quick sale.
Seriously. What kind of dart frog breeder admits they don't really care what the dart frog community thinks?


----------



## Armson

Well, Their PR is really top notch. I will give them that. 

-B


----------



## Armson

So I became active a little after Taron took #1 on the public enemy chart... 

This is like Jerry Sandusky(Jimmy Savile) running a daycare center right? 


is that about the gist of this whole thing? 

-B


----------



## carola1155

This is the one that got me:



DartFrogConnection said:


> 6. We recognize that it was foolish to think we can hire someone in this community and not take on his personal history as part of our new company reputation. Therefore, I am in process resolving issues that some individuals had in the past.
> 
> a. I have already reached out to RUSTY to please contact us directly at [email protected].
> 
> b. I have requested Doug to reach out to his friend to contact us as well.


Have you guys not realized that while people are bitching and moaning and asking how you plan to "make things right"...... they aren't actually interested in your charity? The fact is that you can not actually make things right. These people had to deal with dying animals and their collections were put at risk.

So it breaks down to two things:
1)Nobody wants replacement animals from you guys after the experience they had with your breeder. 
2)You giving them money doesn't really make up for it either because a)they don't support how you make your money and b)money doesn't fix the fact that these people had animals suffer and die in their care because of your breeder.

You coming here and saying "we're trying to make it right but so and so hasn't emailed us yet" doesn't absolve you or your breeder of guilt. When will you realize that you can't make up for what your breeder has done? You can offer to fix it all you want, but in many cases I believe the relationship is already destroyed past the point of fixing... and these people will want nothing to do with you.


Also, whats the deal with Taron blatantly violating that "contract" you guys had where he couldn't be on the forums? I still haven't seen a response to that anywhere... There is a member list on this forum that shows he's on here pretty often.


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## ZookeeperDoug

1. I think we've all demonstrated, assuming we believe that he is just a hire, that this was a Bad, bad decision.

2. Is a flat out lie Alex and you know it. The proof was on your very own Facebook page of people having talked with Taron prior to the time frame you claim. Nobody ever said they called your 888 number, but someone did post on your own Facebook page talking about they talked to Taron prior to when you say you hired him

3. Oh but it does reflect on your organization because he works for you. It speaks to the character and morals of your company that yould hire a convicted criminal with animal welfare court violations. He was working for you when he paid the last portion of his fine on July 10. At least now you're finally admitting that it was more than just a fishing license violation. Of course we had to force you to be truthful. So why did you continue to lie about this, repeatedly. You are I'm sure that you're aware of the allegations made earlier, that Taron this violation involves Colorado River Toads and Rattlesnakes. Do you deny this? Don't you think it would be best to come entirely clean on this? You also ABSOLUTELY DID NOT post the ticket, you posted the court order for the case, how do we know that Taron didn't plead to a lesser charge? Care to explain what such a simple charge was doing in Pima County's special Animal Welfare Court?

3.(the second 3) do you actually expect us to believe that Mr. Tsai knew Taron for 3 years and only decided to hire him two weeks before your company went live? And you expect us to believe that you didn't full grasp the ramifications and were unaware of who Taron was until we all raised the issue recently. I assure you Taron knew. 

5. Still sticking to this story? I swear you guys have a complex and think we're all stupid.

And as Doug H has already mentioned the rest of your reply reads like you're thumbing your nose in our face. It is patronizing and insulting.

Doug


----------



## DartFrogConnection

carola1155 said:


> This is the one that got me:
> 
> So it breaks down to two things:
> 1)Nobody wants replacement animals from you guys after the experience they had with your breeder.
> 2)You giving them money doesn't really make up for it either because a)they don't support how you make your money and b)money doesn't fix the fact that these people had animals suffer and die in their care because of your breeder.
> 
> .



Good Evening Tom

PMs have been sent to Rusty. The email address how to get hold of us have been posted on the thread, If you would like to contact us., the information is the same.

But, we understand and respect you wishes if you do not want to contact us. I actually have sent you a couple PM's early this week to answer your facebook questions, you never did replied. I am under the impression that you don't really wish to communicate with us.

- Alex
Sorry if i don't reply for a while, I will be traveling starting tomorrow..


----------



## oddlot

I've been quiet through this thread,but I've been following it closely.This to me grammatically is not Alex.There is way too many mistakes to be the same person writing all the responses in this thread which have been well written for the most part.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

carola1155 said:


> This is the one that got me:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you guys not realized that while people are bitching and moaning and asking how you plan to "make things right"...... they aren't actually interested in your charity? The fact is that you can not actually make things right. These people had to deal with dying animals and their collections were put at risk.
> 
> So it breaks down to two things:
> 1)Nobody wants replacement animals from you guys after the experience they had with your breeder.
> 2)You giving them money doesn't really make up for it either because a)they don't support how you make your money and b)money doesn't fix the fact that these people had animals suffer and die in their care because of your breeder.
> 
> You coming here and saying "we're trying to make it right but so and so hasn't emailed us yet" doesn't absolve you or your breeder of guilt. When will you realize that you can't make up for what your breeder has done? You can offer to fix it all you want, but in many cases I believe the relationship is already destroyed past the point of fixing... and these people will want nothing to do with you.
> 
> 
> Also, whats the deal with Taron blatantly violating that "contract" you guys had where he couldn't be on the forums? I still haven't seen a response to that anywhere... There is a member list on this forum that shows he's on here pretty often.


I think they already know this, probably why they're confident making the offer. They know that nobody will want frogs from them or have to deal with the stigma involved in having frogs bred by Taron. Two years ago it was pointedly discussed with me that you absolutely do not buy frogs from Taron, because if and when people find out, they won't want to buy frogs from you or work with you otherwise if you're a known associate of his. It's too bad Daniel Taai didn't get that message.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

oddlot said:


> I've been quiet through this thread,but I've been following it closely.This to me grammatically is not Alex.There is way too many mistakes to be the same person writing all the responses in this thread which have been well written for the most part.


Who is to know who it is? I'll say this, about half the time, Alex reads like this. Like someone who does not have English as their first Language. Half the time, they are well spoken.

I want to be clear tho, I have no problem with the lack of proper spelling, punctuation, etc. I'm not one of those forum nazis. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency in DFCs posts. It's very clear to me that more than one individual uses their account to post here.

It was my understanding that this is a violation of the forums terms of service. Has a mod looked into this, I know that you can check IPs? More than likely there are more than one person posting from the same computer. Probably a common PC.


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## oddlot

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Who is to know who it is? I'll say this, about half the time, Alex reads like this. Like someone who does not have English as their first Language. Half the time, they are well spoken.
> 
> I want to be clear tho, I have no problem with the lack of proper spelling, punctuation, etc. I'm not one of those forum nazis. I'm only pointing out the inconsistency in DFCs posts. It's very clear to me that more than one individual uses their account to post here.
> 
> It was my understanding that this is a violation of the forums terms of service. Has a mod looked into this, I know that you can check IPs? More than likely there are more than one person posting from the same computer. Probably a common PC.



I'm not picking on the Gramar,I was just pointing out the same thing,that I believe it is more than one person.If we checked IP's and they are using the same/common computer then they would be the same IP anyway.I'm not sure but I believe it is a DFC account not personal,so I'm not sure that the account would be assigned to one person,but I'll have to check into that.


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## jdooley195

Alex -- _"We do understand if you chose not to do business with us. The great thing about this community is that there are lots of other options."_


I've bought two sick frogs from Taron, so I ain't trying to back anyone here, but Doug, I read this statement as...

'there are lots of other great breeders to choose from, not just DFC.'


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## ZookeeperDoug

oddlot said:


> I'm not picking on the Gramar,I was just pointing out the same thing,that I believe it is more than one person.If we checked IP's and they are using the same/common computer then they would be the same IP anyway.I'm not sure but I believe it is a DFC account not personal,so I'm not sure that the account would be assigned to one person,but I'll have to check into that.


I actually figured that there is some wiggle room on this:


Posting for another member or non-member, or posing as, or using someone else's account to post is prohibited.

For company type profiles.


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## carola1155

DartFrogConnection said:


> Good Evening Tom
> 
> PMs have been sent to Rusty. The email address how to get hold of us have been posted on the thread, If you would like to contact us., the information is the same.
> 
> But, we understand and respect you wishes if you do not want to contact us. I actually have sent you a couple PM's early this week to answer your facebook questions, you never did replied. I am under the impression that you don't really wish to communicate with us.
> 
> - Alex
> Sorry if i don't reply for a while, I will be traveling starting tomorrow..


what is your point in sharing this information though? Why do you keep telling everyone here that you have sent these PMs and everything?

It seems to me as though it is an effort to *appear* as though you are doing the right thing. Pretty entertaining PR grab if you ask me. How about you just say "we've been in contact with people regarding this matter" instead of trying to call out those specific people in an effort to make them look bad for not responding to you.

Also, it appears as though you are forgetting who you are. "Alex" and I did exchange a few PMs about that stuff... "Daniel" was the one that sent me a PM about facebook that I didnt respond to since it was a group message and "Alex" and I had already had a discussion about it. You guys really need to create separate personal accounts and sort all this stuff out.

Oh and I noticed you left out any response to the "contract" violation. Sooo I guess I'm just left to ask you again... What is being done about that?


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## ZookeeperDoug

And for what it's worth, the person in San Antonio that I met who Taron sold 5 sick Galacts too, is on a field herpng trip right now, he said he'd look into it when he gets back. Taron of course quickly PMd me to say hed never sold any sick galacts to a guy in Taxas but opps, he wasnt in Texas when you screwed him over with sick frogs. Good guy too, he is ferrying back a calling male Tarapota imitator for me. I barely just met the guy and he didn't hesitate to do me that favor. I have to say, that it was unique to having only just met someone for 15 minutes and the subject of Taron's ways came up in casual conversation, yet, Daniel Tsai has remained ignorant for more than 3 years? I suspect he knew full well what he is getting into, he just doesn't care, because like others, Taron has been known to get those special hard to find frogs so they look the other way.


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## oldlady25715

I've seen more than enough to say that DFC and Taron Hangover are on the same "no-buy" list as Sydney Ferrel. I don't care how nice their plexi-glass displays are or if they breed highland lamasi/sirensis.

Furthermore, If I see emaciated frogs for sale at your booth at a so cal reptile show (Pomona) I will vehemently protest in front of ignorant/innocent customers... DFC if you see an 6'3" angry-looking Norwegian balding man with a beer belly getting steamed-up while looking at your emaciated frogs for sale, get ready....


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## btcope

Just out of curiosity, if you see healthy frogs being sold and "noobs" being given good information and care sheets, will you share that as well?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory guys... Just asking. 

-brett



oldlady25715 said:


> Furthermore, If I see emaciated frogs for sale at your booth at a so cal reptile show (Pomona) I will vehemently protest in front of ignorant/innocent customers... DFC if you see an 6'3" angry-looking Norwegian balding man with a beer belly getting steamed-up while looking at your emaciated frogs for sale, get ready....


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## msb5446

I have been lurking in the shadows for the most part with my own handful of craziness, but, call me a glutton for punishment, felt inclined to chirp in my two cents on this thread. My response is long; I apologize. But if you don't mind a decent read filled with some humor injected here and there to keep your interest, I would love to share a 'different' perspective. I will start off by saying that I have never had any personal dealings with Taron, DFC, or otherwise, so I can't necessarily speak from the same angle as many folks who have had dealings, whether negative or otherwise with him; Perhaps maybe this will help shine like on this situation from a different perspective since I could in some ways say I don't necessarily have... oh what's the word... ok, it's 1am, and my older daughter finally fell asleep after running around like the energizer on crack (is that even possible??? You BET! ) so forgive me if my choice of words is poor. Perhaps my thoughts may be viewed as less biased? Ugh, I can't think of the right word, but anyhow... to the meat and potatoes:

Those who know me on here know of my dealings as fresh meat in the dart frog addiction-errr... hobby... and how I naively fell prey to a vendor who was the equivalent of a used car salesman in this hobby... at least for me. I will not throw names into this - those who know the situation know who I am referring to. I am still facing the consequences of the ill choices I made to take my business to his table when I saw him at Hamburg. If I saw him in public today, I can't say that I wouldn't have a few choice words for him if I ever saw him vending in the public eye again. 
I know I am far from a perfect person and have made my own share of mistakes as I am sure anyone has in their lives. I am a believer in second chances - when the conditions are right. Maybe someone get the temptation of the dollar bill get in the way of sound judgment. Maybe they were simply naïve in the proper care/selling... who knows. Maybe they were just motivated by the opportunity to make money regardless of how unscrupulous and wrong their actions were, and after feeling the heavy quash from the shunning of a tight, devoted community, they saw the light and wanted to make things right. Through dedication, atonement, time, commitment, blah blah blah, they manage to stay on the right side of the fence, never to go back to their shady ways... bravo. Some people may choose to avoid that person despite their efforts, and that is their right; frankly I don't blame them. Some folks are willing to take the chance with them and give them the opportunity to at least return to the community on the outskirts at the very least, or maybe they are welcomed back with open arms. It's a happy ending fit for a Disney movie. 
Where am I going with this, you ask? Well, here is point that I see advertised over and over again that seems to be getting ignored/overlooked/whatever by the folks at DFC. There are two famous sayings that really summarize some of the main issues here. The first one: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Based on the plethora of information out there regarding Taron and his interactions with others, one thing is very clear: He has a very colorful history and has been given quite a few opportunities to make right his wrongs, and despite those chances, for one reason or another, has continued to slip back into old habits/poor decisions and repeatedly burn bridge after bridge within the hobby. Again, I am only basing this on the research I have done on him - I can't speak on a personal level there. Even after giving he-who-shall-not-be-named-in-this-thread the opportunity to make his wrongs right, I managed to get screwed again and again like a bad episode of groundhog day. If I knew of a dart frog vendor that popped up and employed the same person who conned me into believing that I have the most unique "proven pair" of male tarapotos who somehow managed to defy the laws of breeding and create clutches of froglets despite the fact that I later found out they were again... MALE... (amongst other things I am still finding out about, but I digress) and as their main breeder at that, I don't care how fancy the website is, how informative the page is... none of it. After being taken twice by that person, I will think twice before I will part with a penny from my moth ridden wallet. 
You have a person here who did what this piece of work did to me (and at least 2 other folks I am aware of - god only knows how many others...), but in a much larger scale, and even went as far as committing violations related to illegal animal activities, and not just once or twice, but it appears in some cases, it happened several times. Unlike my case that may not have been as widely exposed, I will be more than happy to demonstrate the magic of basic research on people that should be done when attempting to hire someone for a position as sensitive as his is. If I read correctly, he is the main man for the breeding program? This person holds the power to just how outsiders view a business. It's just like when people hear... oh, I don't know... Colonel Sanders for you fried chicken folks, generally speaking, people think "That be some good fried chicken!" If Colonel Sanders decided to for example, sell disease-ridden chicken, or better yet, sell dog and cat and disguise it as chicken meat, it wouldn't bode very well for his business. If he managed to get the forgiveness of the fried chicken lovin' public and got back into the business and did this again... he'd be pretty much done for. Then here comes some other person who loves fried chicken, knows he has a great recipe for fried chicken, and also knows about his sordid history, but makes the decision to hire him as his guiding force for his blossoming fried chicken industry, how many people are going to overlook all of the flashy advertisements and lurings of free food, etc., for this blossoming business and eat their chicken? Not very many. There will always be the naïve folks out there who will give it a shot regardless, but any smart person will look at the person who is the 'face of their business' and immediately take their business elsewhere. An example of this occurred actually with a local petshop here. The owner of a local Petland in Mechanicsburg, PA (Port Dare - read up on him if you want to read about a real 'gem' to society.) was cited for multiple counts of animal abuse including one of his famous charges: Taking a sick kitten in the store, putting it in a bag, and sticking it in the freezer to die. When that didn't kill the kitten, he took it to the dumpster and threw it against it, killing it. There are numerous other charges against him. Needless to say, that store later closed. After his convictions, this brainchild decided to open up "Petz Unlimited" a few months later using his mother's name for the kennel license since, for obvious reasons like a laundry list of convictions, was unable to put it in his name. I am avidly against buying dogs/cats from petshops, but this is not the place for that topic. Despite hiding behind his mother's name, Petz Unlimited was faced with constant protests and a not-so-good reputation due to a known convicted animal abuser as the head of the business. It wouldn't have mattered if he was struck by the lightning bolt of god and suddenly became the next best thing since sliced bread - no one would again look at him, or any business associated with him, in a positive light again. Did Petz Unlimited still get business? Yup. Naïve folks, folks who really didn't give a darn, etc... they got some business despite the pickets and demonstrations, etc. In the end? They ended up in the same place as Petland - out of business. The animal welfare folks don't take too kindly to convicted abusers and thanks to their efforts amongst other reasons I am sure, Port Dare is done, and hopefully permanently, with the animal business. 
Taron could very well be a potentially knowledgeable breeder of darts (I don't know that for sure obviously, just speaking theoretically), and could be a 'nice friend' or whatever you want to call him, but in the end, he made his bed and when you decide to lay in bed with him, you are laying in bed with the whole package. He could very well have finally changed his ways, but just think of the famous story of the "Boy Who Cried Wolf'. By the time he was being truthful, no one believed him or cared to waste their time to (and rightfully so), and go figure... he gets eaten by the wolf. No matter how good he may be, he is the face of the frogs being bred for DFC, and with his colorful history in the community, regardless of how this company chooses to 'police him', those who will be the biggest drive of business for DFC will not see DFC; they will see Taron. Petland closed and another petshop opened a few blocks down named Petz Unlimited - and despite all of the flash and pizzazz, the animal community didn't see Petz Unlimited, they saw Port Dare; that was their demise. 
Moral of this ungodly long post? For a vendor that has no known history (at least to me; please excuse my inaccuracy if I am wrong on this) with a community that is very 'nichey' and tight (by nichey, I mean this is still not necessarily a hugely known and advertised hobby - at least based on what I know - again, forgive me if I am wrong. You can go to your local petshop and see dogs and cats (grrr), various fish, tree frogs, snakes, and the like - PDFs? Not really...) to overlook the ills of Taron for whatever reason, whether it be the owner was friends with him prior to and 'valued his knowledge and skills with breeding and such', or whatever the reason may be, it's just not a good or sound business decision, IMHO. Perhaps if the vendor was already established in the hobby and had a solid reputation for a considerable amount of time, they could potentially argue their ability to continue delivering healthy, quality frogs despite Taron being their main man, but in the same spectrum, I just find it hard to believe that a long-standing company would take such a risk. Just looking at this from a business perspective, you already have enough to deal with as a new vendor getting your name out there. Pizzazz and flashy ads are great and all, but once people catch on to the 'face' of their breeding business... it's too risky, and you stand to lose your credibility and reputation since his reputation will be attached to the DFC name regardless. If Taron was my personal friend, regardless of how knowledgeable/helpful/whatever he may have been for me, I wouldn't want to take that big of a risk and attach his history to my lack of history and expect to have a healthy, long-lasting, profitable business. 
Look at it this way: If you are co-signing a car loan, and you have little to no credit-worthiness, or hell, you have decent credit, but still need a co-signer to get the loan, who in their right mind is going to ask someone whose credit report is litter with judgments, public records, bankruptcies, etc., as a means of demonstrating or backing their credit-worthiness? The lender wont care if that person had legitimate reasons for their money woes, or if that person decided to turn over a new leaf and straighten out their ill-spending history - the lender looks at the facts, takes the co-signer's application, and uses it as a dart board, washrag, or whatever suits their fancy. 
Ok, I have rambled on enough with my piece and think I got my perspective across in various different ways. The operation itself could be 'gold standard', but the moment such a name gets tied in as a representative of the business, and their main face of their breeding program at that, the majority of folks will disregard the 'gold standard' care that a business could be capable of and only sees (and rightfully so) the ill name that is backbone of their business, and like my fictional example using Colonel Sanders, or the example using the scumbag Port Dare - generally speaking - those businesses are forever looked at with a watchful and negative eye, and go the way of the dodo bird, never really getting the chance to live up to their full potential regardless of how flashy and knowledgeable they may sell themselves as, and no amount of apologies, dollar bills, frogs, or otherwise will bring the business that could have potentially been generated, had a not-so-colorful, but 'equally knowledgeable' individual had been chosen. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." 
For those of you who actually read my mini-novel in its entirety, a treat: this post has been brought to you by the letter "V" for Vanzolinii. Back to the shadows of the leaf litter I go...


----------



## Scott

This is key.

It is also called "Lowest Common Denominator" - the rest of the operation can be "A+" - but the "F -" is what we are going to notice (<cough>Taron</cough>).

Nothing to be done about it as long as TL is present. 

DFC keeps asking what they can do to change our minds. Help us rid the hobby of a really bad person with a really long rap sheet. I, too, believe in 2nd chances - but 4th and 5th chances are not something I believe in.

s


msb5446 said:


> ... The operation itself could be 'gold standard', but the moment such a name gets tied in as a representative of the business, and their main face of their breeding program at that, the majority of folks will disregard the 'gold standard' care that a business could be capable of ...


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## Pumilo

Let's try and put aside everything that Taron has admitted to doing, and everything that he's been accused of doing and focus on one thing, and one thing only for a moment.
Taron has admitted, right here on DendroBoard, that yes, he has knowingly and willingly distributed frogs which he KNEW were diseased. Unfortunately, the thread was cleaned and later removed, but plenty of us witnessed Taron admitting in in a thread HE started. He sold them because he KNEW that they were all going to die and he didn't want to take the loss himself. He was very well aware that whatever it was, was contagious. He was aware because he stated that every frog in his care, had come down with this mysterious illness.
If you look at only that one incident, Taron has admitted to being a frog mass murderer. Now those diseased frogs made their way around the hobby and that took out a frog or thousands. 
Does anybody have any idea what that disease was? Don't answer. Unfortunately, that is only conjecture. I think there are many of us who have a pretty strong suspicion as to what that disease that Taron spread across the United States was. 
If you look at ONLY that incident, Taron has no business in this hobby.

Second Chances? Really? We could discuss how he has used up his second chance, and also his 43rd chance, but let's not. Instead, let's discuss "Second Chances" in general.
If you shoot a man in cold blood, after you do your time, you do NOT get your gun back. You don't get the chance to ever own a gun again.
Sex crime offenders are NOT allowed to get a job as a school bus driver. 
If a doctor is killing his patients, he loses his license and can never practice medicine again.
If a lawyer is caught doing illegal things in his line of work, he is disbarred, never to work in law again.

Yet the people preaching "second chances" wish to put Taron back on the bus? You feel that this is ok because your kid got off the bus? I got news for you. *The bus is still full and the horse is not dead.*


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## Buddysfrogs

Looks like Taron is showing off babies calling them his, on instagram and Twitter
Buddy


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## Scott

DFC must not consider Instagram a "Social Site" then.

So the words continue to not match the actions.

DFC - do you even KNOW he's doing this in his own name (i.e. - not following his "contract")?

If you're not aware of it - don't be surprised. He rarely does what he says he'll do.

s


Buddysfrogs said:


> Looks like Taron is showing off babies calling them his, on instagram and Twitter
> Buddy


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## Philsuma

msb5446 said:


> I have been lurking in the shadows for the most part with my own handful of craziness, but, call me a glutton for punishment, felt inclined to chirp in my two cents on this thread. My response is long; I apologize. But if you don't mind a decent read filled with some humor injected here and there to keep your interest, I would love to share a 'different' perspective. I will start off by saying that I have never had any personal dealings with Taron, DFC, or otherwise, so I can't necessarily speak from the same angle as many folks who have had dealings, whether negative or otherwise with him; Perhaps maybe this will help shine like on this situation from a different perspective since I could in some ways say I don't necessarily have... oh what's the word... ok, it's 1am, and my older daughter finally fell asleep after running around like the energizer on crack (is that even possible??? You BET! ) so forgive me if my choice of words is poor. Perhaps my thoughts may be viewed as less biased? Ugh, I can't think of the right word, but anyhow... to the meat and potatoes:
> 
> Those who know me on here know of my dealings as fresh meat in the dart frog addiction-errr... hobby... and how I naively fell prey to a vendor who was the equivalent of a used car salesman in this hobby... at least for me. I will not throw names into this - those who know the situation know who I am referring to. I am still facing the consequences of the ill choices I made to take my business to his table when I saw him at Hamburg. If I saw him in public today, I can't say that I wouldn't have a few choice words for him if I ever saw him vending in the public eye again.
> I know I am far from a perfect person and have made my own share of mistakes as I am sure anyone has in their lives. I am a believer in second chances - when the conditions are right. Maybe someone get the temptation of the dollar bill get in the way of sound judgment. Maybe they were simply naïve in the proper care/selling... who knows. Maybe they were just motivated by the opportunity to make money regardless of how unscrupulous and wrong their actions were, and after feeling the heavy quash from the shunning of a tight, devoted community, they saw the light and wanted to make things right. Through dedication, atonement, time, commitment, blah blah blah, they manage to stay on the right side of the fence, never to go back to their shady ways... bravo. Some people may choose to avoid that person despite their efforts, and that is their right; frankly I don't blame them. Some folks are willing to take the chance with them and give them the opportunity to at least return to the community on the outskirts at the very least, or maybe they are welcomed back with open arms. It's a happy ending fit for a Disney movie.
> Where am I going with this, you ask? Well, here is point that I see advertised over and over again that seems to be getting ignored/overlooked/whatever by the folks at DFC. There are two famous sayings that really summarize some of the main issues here. The first one: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Based on the plethora of information out there regarding Taron and his interactions with others, one thing is very clear: He has a very colorful history and has been given quite a few opportunities to make right his wrongs, and despite those chances, for one reason or another, has continued to slip back into old habits/poor decisions and repeatedly burn bridge after bridge within the hobby. Again, I am only basing this on the research I have done on him - I can't speak on a personal level there. Even after giving he-who-shall-not-be-named-in-this-thread the opportunity to make his wrongs right, I managed to get screwed again and again like a bad episode of groundhog day. If I knew of a dart frog vendor that popped up and employed the same person who conned me into believing that I have the most unique "proven pair" of male tarapotos who somehow managed to defy the laws of breeding and create clutches of froglets despite the fact that I later found out they were again... MALE... (amongst other things I am still finding out about, but I digress) and as their main breeder at that, I don't care how fancy the website is, how informative the page is... none of it. After being taken twice by that person, I will think twice before I will part with a penny from my moth ridden wallet.
> You have a person here who did what this piece of work did to me (and at least 2 other folks I am aware of - god only knows how many others...), but in a much larger scale, and even went as far as committing violations related to illegal animal activities, and not just once or twice, but it appears in some cases, it happened several times. Unlike my case that may not have been as widely exposed, I will be more than happy to demonstrate the magic of basic research on people that should be done when attempting to hire someone for a position as sensitive as his is. If I read correctly, he is the main man for the breeding program? This person holds the power to just how outsiders view a business. It's just like when people hear... oh, I don't know... Colonel Sanders for you fried chicken folks, generally speaking, people think "That be some good fried chicken!" If Colonel Sanders decided to for example, sell disease-ridden chicken, or better yet, sell dog and cat and disguise it as chicken meat, it wouldn't bode very well for his business. If he managed to get the forgiveness of the fried chicken lovin' public and got back into the business and did this again... he'd be pretty much done for. Then here comes some other person who loves fried chicken, knows he has a great recipe for fried chicken, and also knows about his sordid history, but makes the decision to hire him as his guiding force for his blossoming fried chicken industry, how many people are going to overlook all of the flashy advertisements and lurings of free food, etc., for this blossoming business and eat their chicken? Not very many. There will always be the naïve folks out there who will give it a shot regardless, but any smart person will look at the person who is the 'face of their business' and immediately take their business elsewhere. An example of this occurred actually with a local petshop here. The owner of a local Petland in Mechanicsburg, PA (Port Dare - read up on him if you want to read about a real 'gem' to society.) was cited for multiple counts of animal abuse including one of his famous charges: Taking a sick kitten in the store, putting it in a bag, and sticking it in the freezer to die. When that didn't kill the kitten, he took it to the dumpster and threw it against it, killing it. There are numerous other charges against him. Needless to say, that store later closed. After his convictions, this brainchild decided to open up "Petz Unlimited" a few months later using his mother's name for the kennel license since, for obvious reasons like a laundry list of convictions, was unable to put it in his name. I am avidly against buying dogs/cats from petshops, but this is not the place for that topic. Despite hiding behind his mother's name, Petz Unlimited was faced with constant protests and a not-so-good reputation due to a known convicted animal abuser as the head of the business. It wouldn't have mattered if he was struck by the lightning bolt of god and suddenly became the next best thing since sliced bread - no one would again look at him, or any business associated with him, in a positive light again. Did Petz Unlimited still get business? Yup. Naïve folks, folks who really didn't give a darn, etc... they got some business despite the pickets and demonstrations, etc. In the end? They ended up in the same place as Petland - out of business. The animal welfare folks don't take too kindly to convicted abusers and thanks to their efforts amongst other reasons I am sure, Port Dare is done, and hopefully permanently, with the animal business.
> Taron could very well be a potentially knowledgeable breeder of darts (I don't know that for sure obviously, just speaking theoretically), and could be a 'nice friend' or whatever you want to call him, but in the end, he made his bed and when you decide to lay in bed with him, you are laying in bed with the whole package. He could very well have finally changed his ways, but just think of the famous story of the "Boy Who Cried Wolf'. By the time he was being truthful, no one believed him or cared to waste their time to (and rightfully so), and go figure... he gets eaten by the wolf. No matter how good he may be, he is the face of the frogs being bred for DFC, and with his colorful history in the community, regardless of how this company chooses to 'police him', those who will be the biggest drive of business for DFC will not see DFC; they will see Taron. Petland closed and another petshop opened a few blocks down named Petz Unlimited - and despite all of the flash and pizzazz, the animal community didn't see Petz Unlimited, they saw Port Dare; that was their demise.
> Moral of this ungodly long post? For a vendor that has no known history (at least to me; please excuse my inaccuracy if I am wrong on this) with a community that is very 'nichey' and tight (by nichey, I mean this is still not necessarily a hugely known and advertised hobby - at least based on what I know - again, forgive me if I am wrong. You can go to your local petshop and see dogs and cats (grrr), various fish, tree frogs, snakes, and the like - PDFs? Not really...) to overlook the ills of Taron for whatever reason, whether it be the owner was friends with him prior to and 'valued his knowledge and skills with breeding and such', or whatever the reason may be, it's just not a good or sound business decision, IMHO. Perhaps if the vendor was already established in the hobby and had a solid reputation for a considerable amount of time, they could potentially argue their ability to continue delivering healthy, quality frogs despite Taron being their main man, but in the same spectrum, I just find it hard to believe that a long-standing company would take such a risk. Just looking at this from a business perspective, you already have enough to deal with as a new vendor getting your name out there. Pizzazz and flashy ads are great and all, but once people catch on to the 'face' of their breeding business... it's too risky, and you stand to lose your credibility and reputation since his reputation will be attached to the DFC name regardless. If Taron was my personal friend, regardless of how knowledgeable/helpful/whatever he may have been for me, I wouldn't want to take that big of a risk and attach his history to my lack of history and expect to have a healthy, long-lasting, profitable business.
> Look at it this way: If you are co-signing a car loan, and you have little to no credit-worthiness, or hell, you have decent credit, but still need a co-signer to get the loan, who in their right mind is going to ask someone whose credit report is litter with judgments, public records, bankruptcies, etc., as a means of demonstrating or backing their credit-worthiness? The lender wont care if that person had legitimate reasons for their money woes, or if that person decided to turn over a new leaf and straighten out their ill-spending history - the lender looks at the facts, takes the co-signer's application, and uses it as a dart board, washrag, or whatever suits their fancy.
> Ok, I have rambled on enough with my piece and think I got my perspective across in various different ways. The operation itself could be 'gold standard', but the moment such a name gets tied in as a representative of the business, and their main face of their breeding program at that, the majority of folks will disregard the 'gold standard' care that a business could be capable of and only sees (and rightfully so) the ill name that is backbone of their business, and like my fictional example using Colonel Sanders, or the example using the scumbag Port Dare - generally speaking - those businesses are forever looked at with a watchful and negative eye, and go the way of the dodo bird, never really getting the chance to live up to their full potential regardless of how flashy and knowledgeable they may sell themselves as, and no amount of apologies, dollar bills, frogs, or otherwise will bring the business that could have potentially been generated, had a not-so-colorful, but 'equally knowledgeable' individual had been chosen. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
> For those of you who actually read my mini-novel in its entirety, a treat: this post has been brought to you by the letter "V" for Vanzolinii. Back to the shadows of the leaf litter I go...


This post was indeed a 'hard read', but I think I got the jist of it...

You NEED....you MUST....post a vendor feedback thread outing that particular Hamburg vendor.

The hobby relies on true and accurate feedback. Please reconsider a detailed vendor feedback thread on that person /business. I implore you.

also...I'm originally from the Harrisburg area and remember the Port kitten incident very well. It took some time, but that d-bag ultimately did not survive that incident and his business tanked (get it?). The media coverage and individual outrage was key though. That's why it's important to make a feedback thread on that person.


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## Buddysfrogs

Don't forget about Twitter!


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## Ultravincent

Scott said:


> DFC keeps asking what they can do to change our minds. Help us rid the hobby of a really bad person with a really long rap sheet. I, too, believe in 2nd chances - but 4th and 5th chances are not something I believe in.


I have a very simple objection.
You are not going to kick Taron out of the hobby by simply firing him from DFC.
He's gonna start over in another business or by himself.
Wouldn't be better for the hobby to keep him in a place where he can be kept under surveillance?

I mean, this whole situation really makes me think of a robber who is denied a regular job because of his past, and inevitably starts robbing again.


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## Buddysfrogs

There is one. After it popped up I have not seen him at ANY shows


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## Scott

Doug - or someone else - you may want to learn how to use the Internet "Way Back" machine (whatever it's called) to find this information.

I might try to look as well - but I honestly don't have time.

TL is saying he never said this. I'm not asking you to argue about that here - but the "Way Back" machine saves "slices" of data from time periods. So if that thread/post was posted ON DB, as you say, then you *should* be able to find it there.

I've never tried to use this functionality so I'm not going to be any help here - but I'm offering it as a possible solution.

In the meantime - just know that TL objects to this. Of course he broke his contract (again) to let me know that.

DFC - you REALLY need to look over that "contact".

[edit: ... and for the record I wrote this BEFORE he contacted me, AGAIN, telling me what my "duties" are. I know my duties TL - go away. Interesting, he's just made me MUCH MORE likely to go looking for this conversation.]

s



Pumilo said:


> ... Taron has admitted, right here on DendroBoard, that yes, he has knowingly and willingly distributed frogs which he KNEW were diseased. Unfortunately, the thread was cleaned and later removed, but plenty of us witnessed Taron admitting in in a thread HE started. He sold them because he KNEW that they were all going to die and he didn't want to take the loss himself. He was very well aware that whatever it was, was contagious. He was aware because he stated that every frog in his care, had come down with this mysterious illness.[/B]


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## Scott

If anyone has Daniel Tsaii (sp?) direct email - please forward it to me *privately*.

Thank you.

s


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## markpulawski

Philsuma said:


> This post was indeed a 'hard read', but I think I got the jist of it...
> 
> You NEED....you MUST....post a vendor feedback thread outing that particular Hamburg vendor.
> 
> The hobby relies on true and accurate feedback. Please reconsider a detailed vendor feedback thread on that person /business. I implore you.
> 
> also...I'm originally from the Harrisburg area and remember the Port kitten incident very well. It took some time, but that d-bag ultimately did not survive that incident and his business tanked (get it?). The media coverage and individual outrage was key though. That's why it's important to make a feedback thread on that person.


Phil she did, it is xxxxx or xxxx of Glen Burnie, MD, check page 4 of vendor feedback.


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## Buddysfrogs

I thought we were going to keep names out of it? Haha oh well. Yes there is a vendor feedback. I have not seen him or heard from him since that thread turned up. 
Buddy


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## goof901

Pumilo said:


> Taron has admitted, right here on DendroBoard, that yes, he has knowingly and willingly distributed frogs which he KNEW were diseased. Unfortunately, the thread was cleaned and later removed, but plenty of us witnessed Taron admitting in in a thread HE started. He sold them because he KNEW that they were all going to die and he didn't want to take the loss himself. He was very well aware that whatever it was, was contagious. He was aware because he stated that every frog in his care, had come down with this mysterious illness.
> If you look at only that one incident, Taron has admitted to being a frog mass murderer. Now those diseased frogs made their way around the hobby and that took out a frog or thousands.
> Does anybody have any idea what that disease was? Don't answer. Unfortunately, that is only conjecture. I think there are many of us who have a pretty strong suspicion as to what that disease that Taron spread across the United States was.
> If you look at ONLY that incident, Taron has no business in this hobby.


Doug, do you remember what the thread was called? I'm sure it's somewhere in google cached, I just have to do the right search to find it...


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## Scott

You need the wayback function to get at it. It's not longer visible on DB.

s


goof901 said:


> Doug, do you remember what the thread was called? I'm sure it's somewhere in google cached, I just have to do the right search to find it...


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## Pumilo

OK, I can't prove at least for now. Therefore I issue a retraction for now. I'll instead change it to "rumor has it". 
I am extremely short on time myself right now, and am rather computer impaired, but I'll see what I can find relating to the sick frogs, later.
I thought it was in the thunderdome thread that Taron himself opened. The thread seems to be missing?

In the meantime, Taron, you are absolutely not welcome in my PM box. You got something to say, speak up right now. We already know your "contract" doesn't mean jack squat.
Taron claims that he has "never once had an illness in my collection". Does anybody have any input on that?


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## ZookeeperDoug

The thread was in Thunderdome and was locked and made invisible. If you can find a direct link to the old thread you should be able to find it but won't have permissions to view the contents. Only a MOD could to that. Unless it was per inanely deleted.


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## goof901

I'm sure the NSA has it locked away somewhere...
I remember seeing the thread that taron started about himself for feedback or something...


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## DartFrogConnection

Pumilo said:


> OK, I can't prove at least for now. Therefore I issue a retraction for now. I'll instead change it to "rumor has it".
> I am extremely short on time myself right now, and am rather computer impaired, but I'll see what I can find relating to the sick frogs, later.
> I thought it was in the thunderdome thread that Taron himself opened. The thread seems to be missing?
> 
> In the meantime, Taron, you are absolutely not welcome in my PM box. You got something to say, speak up right now. We already know your "contract" doesn't mean jack squat.
> Taron claims that he has "never once had an illness in my collection". Does anybody have any input on that?


First of all, Taron has every right to defend himself. Secondly, his contract is with DFC, not with DB.

We understand everyone can express their opinion and can say whatever they want. DFC have been nothing but professional on DB. *but this lie is crossing the line.*

DFC stands behind Taron, our breeder and the healthy dart frogs he produces.

- Daniel, owner of DFC.


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## Scott

Closed.

Again.

If anyone finds the particular post that was referenced here - please let me know and I WILL post it.

Otherwise - it's all been said. DFC has answered (without raising even more questions like last time).

It's closed.

s


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## alex111683

*He's still at it*

Sad to see but he's still at it I wish there was a way to stop him.









Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk


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