# Sexing Juvenile Imitator Varadero



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Hi all,

I recently moved my approximately 3.5 months OOW imitator Varadero from a grow out into my 18x18x24 enclosure. I have been closely monitoring the frog and it seems to be doing well as it found a primary hiding spot and I have seen it eat frequently. I am also making sure this little one does not get bullied by the older male which I believe is 5-7 months OOW and just started calling a week ago.

I have been browsing the forums and it is hard to sex these little guys I am hopeful for a female, but the consensus is just wait and see if the frog calls. Are there any other indicators I can look out for? Do juvenile frogs react different to an adult calling based on their sex? I really would like to keep this frog regardless of the sex. Would a 2.1 ever work? I noticed most people who house a trio do a 1.2.

Edit: grammar

Thanks,
Ricky


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

As an update:

The male tracked the little guy down and started calling near it. The little one left its hiding place to start to follow the male. I observed no wrestling, the male called and led the little one to the top of a coconut hut and then he stopped calling and they began to split up a little bit. I am seeing the little one follow it still and the male is waiting at the entrance of a coconut hut. Does the male typically call all the way to the laying site?

Will a juvenile female still follow a male even though she has not reached sexual maturity? Is this behavior typical regardless of the juvenile frog's sex?

Thanks,
Ricky


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Your imitators will not lay in a coco hut if that is what it is for. They will stick eggs to vertical surfaces. The fact that the younger frog was not imitated by the calling male is a good sign that you have a pair.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

I think it may be too young to tell for sure, but those are good signs in regards to it being a female.

I think in most tanks vertical, or mostly vertical surfaces are preferred deposition sites for eggs, but I see them all the time in the leaf litter. I use cocohuts in my imitator grow outs, just for a place to retreat too!


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

bulbophyllum said:


> Your imitators will not lay in a coco hut if that is what it is for. They will stick eggs to vertical surfaces. The fact that the younger frog was not imitated by the calling male is a good sign that you have a pair.


Gotcha. I got the coconut as a shelter for them, but they seem to love to hunt springtails on top of it. I am very hopeful for a female!



Chris S said:


> I think it may be too young to tell for sure, but those are good signs in regards to it being a female.
> 
> I think in most tanks vertical, or mostly vertical surfaces are preferred deposition sites for eggs, but I see them all the time in the leaf litter. I use cocohuts in my imitator grow outs, just for a place to retreat too!


Good to hear! I thought it was a good sign. 

Have you ever observed similar behavior in your Ranitomeya? Does the male know if it is a female even before maturity?

For frogs that will feed their young, do you use film canisters or bromeliads for the tadpoles?

Thanks,
Ricky


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Good to hear! I thought it was a good sign.
> 
> Have you ever observed similar behavior in your Ranitomeya? Does the male know if it is a female even before maturity?
> 
> ...


That is typical courting behaviour - the female will respond to a courting call and then follow the male around, sometimes caressing his back. The frogs have the ability to tell each others sex, but more so, a female that responds and actively courts with the male is a sign that she is ready. I'd suggest she is a bit young, and I would likely isolate her so she doesn't start actively producing eggs at such a young age prior to being fully grown, but that is your call.

As for tadpole disposition sites, if you have a bromeliad that holds water you will likely have tadpoles deposited there. If there isn't anything else, film canisters or any type of water will make do. If you want to control breeding, I would suggest removing any bromeliads and using film canisters primarily.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Chris S said:


> That is typical courting behaviour - the female will respond to a courting call and then follow the male around, sometimes caressing his back. The frogs have the ability to tell each others sex, but more so, a female that responds and actively courts with the male is a sign that she is ready. I'd suggest she is a bit young, and I would likely isolate her so she doesn't start actively producing eggs at such a young age prior to being fully grown, but that is your call.
> 
> As for tadpole disposition sites, if you have a bromeliad that holds water you will likely have tadpoles deposited there. If there isn't anything else, film canisters or any type of water will make do. If you want to control breeding, I would suggest removing any bromeliads and using film canisters primarily.


Oh, so even though she is that young she can still produce eggs? I thought she would need to reach sexual maturity first.

Can producing eggs young cause health issues for the frog?

Thanks,
Ricky


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Oh, so even though she is that young she can still produce eggs? I thought she would need to reach sexual maturity first.
> 
> Can producing eggs young cause health issues for the frog?
> 
> ...


I've seen them lay eggs at 3-4 months before - not always viable, but they take resources nonetheless. If they are producing eggs, they are sexually mature in the sense of being able to breed, not necessarily equipped for success there.

I'm not sure any research has really been done on this, so take this only as my experience - but I believe imitators continue to grow until about 7-8 months, sometimes beyond. We know that the process of developing eggs, laying eggs and then feeding tadpoles takes resources, obviously. I would suggest those resources are better served in the growth of the froglet, rather than breeding. I know from experience these frogs can get worn down from continual breeding - I think doing this at such a young age can potentially stress or cause issues on younger frogs, which is why I try to segregate if and when possible. In the wild, I believe a young female like that would be out-competed by a larger, stronger female in almost all scenarios. In captivity, there is no option for this.

Again, these are your frogs, so it is completely up to you!


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Chris S said:


> I've seen them lay eggs at 3-4 months before - not always viable, but they take resources nonetheless. If they are producing eggs, they are sexually mature in the sense of being able to breed, not necessarily equipped for success there.
> 
> I'm not sure any research has really been done on this, so take this only as my experience - but I believe imitators continue to grow until about 7-8 months, sometimes beyond. We know that the process of developing eggs, laying eggs and then feeding tadpoles takes resources, obviously. I would suggest those resources are better served in the growth of the froglet, rather than breeding. I know from experience these frogs can get worn down from continual breeding - I think doing this at such a young age can potentially stress or cause issues on younger frogs, which is why I try to segregate if and when possible. In the wild, I believe a young female like that would be out-competed by a larger, stronger female in almost all scenarios. In captivity, there is no option for this.
> 
> Again, these are your frogs, so it is completely up to you!


Thanks for the info Chris.

I will have to take that into consideration. Are there any resources such as scientific studies online that I can use to learn more about this type of stuff?

Both the frogs are now much more bold now that they are together and do not care as much when I walk to the front of the tank to observe them. This is great and makes me feel as though it is even more likely that I have a pair.

Regards,
Ricky


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

There are lots of papers out, especially on imitators, but they aren't necessarily focused on breeding in captivity, or even in the wild, more so they are genetics based or mimicry based. I'm sure if you poke around Google you will find a few...I think there is a thread somewhere on here too with scholarly articles. @Socratic Monologue may have the link!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Indeed. 









Links to downloadable journal articles


This thread might get messy, but hopefully it is useful. I'd like this thread to be a place where anyone can supply a citation, link (hopefully a free download), and short description of relevant peer-reviewed journal articles that are relevant to dart frog keeping. I'll start. This is the...




www.dendroboard.com


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Sorry to resurrect this old thread and for all the questions. I observe my frogs often but am still puzzled.

Do juveniles respond differently to calling depending on their sex? 

I have not seen the juvenile frog following my confirmed male around since I posted this. As a matter of fact not seen them interacting at all since then.

Could the juvenile following have been only related to the frogs becoming acquainted with each other? Is this something that happens often?

These frogs tend to spend time in different areas. The male stays in the up off the ground most of the time. The other frog stays on the ground in the leaves most often. Could the frogs staying separated indicate both are the same sex?

Ricky


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

It could be a juvenile - I've found froglets in the tanks are left completely alone by actively courting pairs/trios, whereas adult frogs are often times aggressively engaged.

It could also be that the frog is the same sex and just keeping its distance from another calling male. If there is no female in the tank, the calls are exploratory mating calls. A mature female will most times react to it.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Chris S said:


> It could be a juvenile - I've found froglets in the tanks are left completely alone by actively courting pairs/trios, whereas adult frogs are often times aggressively engaged.
> 
> It could also be that the frog is the same sex and just keeping its distance from another calling male. If there is no female in the tank, the calls are exploratory mating calls. A mature female will most times react to it.


I believe the frog let morphed in late May, so I have a few months before maturity right?

My calling male is still rather shy and each frog is active during different times of the day. I think that is another reason they don't come into contact with each other. 

I tried playing a recording of imitators calling on my phone and neither frog responded, haha.

I got each frog from a different breeder. Is this the reason for them being active at different times of the day, or is it just the personality of the frog?

It would be a shame to have two males. That would likely mean I'd have to give up one, and I've grown quite fond of each of them.

Ricky


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Two males can live together perfectly fine, as long as there is no female there.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Chris S said:


> Two males can live together perfectly fine, as long as there is no female there.


Good to know thanks.

I would love to see some courting, but time will tell I suppose.

I believe you mentioned you had groups of imitators in the past. Any chance a 2.1 would work?

Ricky


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Good to know thanks.
> 
> I would love to see some courting, but time will tell I suppose.
> 
> ...


I haven't had good luck with multiple males in one enclosure. It usually leads to the removal of one.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Chris S said:


> I haven't had good luck with multiple males in one enclosure. It usually leads to the removal of one.


If both were males how likely would they both call? Would one usually not call until separated?

Ricky


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Imatreewaterme said:


> If both were males how likely would they both call? Would one usually not call until separated?
> 
> Ricky


Typically just the dominant male would call.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Chris S said:


> Typically just the dominant male would call.


I started playing some imitator Varadero calls on my phone, and the little frog seemed to follow the sound.

Is this an indicator of a female?

Ricky


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

It's an indicator he likes your phone!


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