# Pumilio Imports



## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

I'm just curious what the general concensus is in the hobby right now... 

Seems like folks can't wait to grab cheap pums as soon as they hit US soil straight from the importer.

Sure, you can save a few bucks and even flip some extras. If you're lucky and they live or you end up with at least 1 pair.

OR, you could sit tight and let one of the local experts like SNDF bring in a shipment or hand pick the frogs, make a positive ID on them, quarantine them, sex them, and pay a little more for a quality pair of animals.

As I understand it, all the "mancreeks" people talk about coming in are really Almirantes... which can lead to confusion about what is what. I also understand that the cups don't exactly come labeled with which morph is which when they arrive from Panama - so you are relying on a guy that refers to ALL pumilio as "blue jeans" to sort out your animals BY SIGHT ALONE - not by where they were actually collected. Sometimes it's easy to make an ID - sometimes not so much... it helps if you've seen hundreds, even thousands of them, in their natural habitat over the course of a decade when it comes to IDing your morphs. Not too many folk have those kind of credentials...

I guess my questions is this... is it worth the risk to buy the cheap imports, with questionable locale info, questionable sexing, certain parasites, and a hint of mystery surrounds the actual morph that arrives?

Would you rather buy 4 question marks or a 1.1 pair of quarantined, medicated, ID'd, and sexed frogs for roughly the same money?

And how much weight should be given to the words... "I bought them as XXX from Strictly Reptiles...". If the ID is not obvious, should that make them junk frogs? Even if the ID does seem obvious, should that still make them junk frogs?? Yes, they are beautiful and certainly worthy pets in any collection, but should they be sold as anything other then "March 2011 pumilio import"?

ok, pot stirred... thoughts?


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

For me personally, I would rather wait it out buy the QT treated frogs that eventually get proper ID or what I will prefer to do is buy from someone that has CB frogs with proper linage and information. To me I would rather spend the extra money and know what your getting that is money well spent.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

JL-Exotics said:


> I guess my questions is this... is it worth the risk to buy the cheap imports, with questionable locale info, questionable sexing, certain parasites, and a hint of mystery surrounds the actual morph that arrives?



It's a definite NO for me.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I think on the other forum it was been established that no one can tell conclusively what population the mancreeks are, but that they may be a different species---I remember that it was mentioned they morph out differently. The term 'mancreek' referred to a specific creek called Mancreek that was considerably away from Almirante, if I remember right, but which somehow did not fit where they would likely have been collected, so the name is a misnomer, I think. 
Still, lovely frogs.


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## DartAsylum (Feb 17, 2011)

how is (ex company) ID ing animals any different than everyone else. aren't they all coming from the same exporters? aren't they going simply by sight and by what the exporter/importer says as far as local?

i do think they should be referred to as 2011 imports. however that doesn't make them junk.

i also think there are ppl who will claim these are CB and sell them as such. So unless your dealing with someone you know to be honest...how can you ever really be sure.

i dont think i have an issue as far as where they are from (farmed) as long as the seller is honest about it.

as far as quarantine.. everyone should be doing this for every frog no matter where you buy it IMO. and its not hard to quarantine and treat frogs for parasites.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I am sometimes a impulse frog buyer but I have been better. It has been tempting to get these frogs but I have held off and will wait. I would like to get pumilios going at some point and will get them from a good source.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Based on the imports I got in the last 3 months the quality of the animals has been good but the identification of the morphs has been spotty at best. I think everyone needs to make their own decision based on what their final goals for the animals are.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I personally dont think the ID of animals and the long term success with them in the hobby is any better with the 'expert' you sighted above Jeremy, but....

but your concerns are well taken re: cheap import animals and the abundance of 'flippers' in the US hobby.

Animals seem to be coming in one day, being shipped to another seller the next and resold soon after [sometimes even before they are even available]

Cant be good for the overall success of these animals and I bet only a small percentage are around 12 mo later...

People need to keep these animals with their import date and source [importer rather then reseller] in their records. Otherwise we are going to have a bunch of 'junk' in the hobby with crosses based upon 'site' naming, a couple years down the road when everyone forgets what their animal backgrounds were....

S


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

DartAsylum said:


> how is (ex company) ID ing animals any different than everyone else. aren't they all coming from the same exporters? aren't they going simply by sight and by what the exporter/importer says as far as local?


I just have more confidence in a "frog" importer then a "anything that crawls, hops, leaps, slithers, glides, wiggles, swims, flys etc." importer. They all probably come form the same source - I just question the qualification of the folks doing the picking when darts is not their area of expertise. I don't think anyone is capable of making ID 100% of the time - but a dart pro can hand pick and leave the questionable stuff to the flippers.



DartAsylum said:


> i also think there are ppl who will claim these are CB and sell them as such. So unless your dealing with someone you know to be honest...how can you ever really be sure.


Sometimes you can tell at a glance, but that really is part of the concern. There are people misrepresenting animals. And that goes back to the gist of my question - is it worth your peace of mind to pay more from a reliable & trusted source with a good history in the hobby?



DartAsylum said:


> i dont think i have an issue as far as where they are from (farmed) as long as the seller is honest about it.


absolutely.



DartAsylum said:


> as far as quarantine.. everyone should be doing this for every frog no matter where you buy it IMO. and its not hard to quarantine and treat frogs for parasites.


I think this board has proven that most folks don't follow that advice. SHOULD a flipper be expected to take these steps before offering for sale? Some do, some don't - and they all set comparabe prices.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

There can be nice animals when they become long term captives and are hand picked....but I agree with Shawn that it's creating cheap animals....

Not to belittle anyone as this is not geared towards anyone specific. I just hate that I list expensive captive bred frogs and the trade offers I get are for imports that haven't even hit quarantine. Will the person trading or selling them cover the frogs if they die during shipment? Yes, I bet they will. Will they cover my entire collection if it dies of a disease brought in by this frog. I doubt it!!!!

Plus value wise. I'm insulted to think someone paid next to nothing for imports that they barely even examined and think i'd trade a captive bred pair that I've been working with and growing for a year.

There are some good things coming from these farmed pumilio, I just think they should be more careful about how they throw them around. I don't understand the big rush.

Lastly, the worst part is having to deal with all the sellers and flippers from kingsnake. All these Florida reptile people seem to be a dime a dozen selling WC animals. They barely know anything about dart frogs but think they can sell them in droves. They're not all that bad but some can barely spell pumilio. I don't have a problem with ugly colors coming in though. Lets not try and think on regular herp hobby terms. Bad colors does NOT mean poor bloodlines...that's just the luck of the draw for that frog and their genetics. It does not mean unhealthy frogs either....it just means that they might not sell as good or they're frogs we don't think appeal visually. These usually end up being sent away anyway and die off with the inexperienced people when pet stores finally get them and the bloodlines never move on as no one takes the time to breed ugly frogs. 

Alright I'm rambling...later boys and girls!
Dan


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> I personally dont think the ID of animals and the long term success with them in the hobby is any better with the 'expert' you sighted above Jeremy, but....


I see your point, but compared to someone with years of working with pumilio I don't think there is any comparison. I have seen frogs from the importer purchases as bastis, that were almirante. They are getting better, but to them a red frog is a red frog - they don't care. They have a ton of animals to move out and that is a priority... Not ensuring your El Dorados are not really cristobals.




sports_doc said:


> Cant be good for the overall success of these animals and I bet only a small percentage are around 12 mo later...


Bingo. Where have all the bastis gone?? No imports for a year and they have become surprisingly scarce it seems...



sports_doc said:


> People need to keep these animals with their import date and source [importer rather then reseller] in their records. Otherwise we are going to have a bunch of 'junk' in the hobby with crosses based upon 'site' naming, a couple years down the road when everyone forgets what their animal backgrounds were....
> 
> S


Agreed.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I have a problem with the labeling of non-site-specific frogs as 'junk'. That means every tinctorious, galactonotus, granuliferous, true blue jeans, histrionicus, sylvaticus, vents and various imitator tribe frogs (outside of UE frogs) and every frog in the hobby prior to about 1995 is junk. Just a thought.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Something else for people to consider is that the frogs are here and we need to deal with that fact... they are part of the hobby whether the hobby likes it or not. Labeling them as junk doesn't solve the issue as it sets up a double standard with many of the frogs already in the hobby (as Robb noted) and that will just increase demand for wc animals that have locality data (or are claimed to have locality data). To meet this demand, more frogs will be imported, probably smuggled.. and added into the hobby. 

Now it is always better to deal with a source that is working with a sustainable program but I don't know that we have any proof that this is occuring in Panama (or with most of the other countries in which dendrobatids are found). 

I can understand the sentiment that purchasing captive bred is better and that people should not patronize the non-specialist importers or resellers. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> I have a problem with the labeling of non-site-specific frogs as 'junk'. That means every tinctorious, galactonotus, granuliferous, true blue jeans, histrionicus, sylvaticus, vents and various imitator tribe frogs (outside of UE frogs) and every frog in the hobby prior to about 1995 is junk. Just a thought.


Agreed Robb,

My personal use of 'junk' was referring to 'sight' rather then 'site' specific animals eventually being crossed with other stock in the hobby --> leading to junk. Not the original animals themselves, just our poor stewarding. 

Ie: look alikes being bred together, and improper names being tossed around.

Do we have Man Creek, or Alimirante, or Blue Jeans in the hobby?? how many have been 'mixed' I wonder? Cristobals??

Various imitators mixed, various ventrimaculatus split based upon leg color, etc etc. We are a mess


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> I have a problem with the labeling of non-site-specific frogs as 'junk'. That means every tinctorious, galactonotus, granuliferous, true blue jeans, histrionicus, sylvaticus, vents and various imitator tribe frogs (outside of UE frogs) and every frog in the hobby prior to about 1995 is junk. Just a thought.


Actually make that 2005 not 1995...


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> Agreed Robb,
> 
> My personal use of 'junk' was referring to 'sight' rather then 'site' specific animals eventually being crossed with other stock in the hobby --> leading to junk. Not the original animals themselves, just our poor stewarding.
> 
> ...


I understand your point, and wasn't specifically referring to your use of the word 'junk' rather many others who have labeled non-site-specific animals as inferior or 'junk/trash' frogs.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ right

Ive got plenty of those in my collection. They aint junk to me 

But keeping them labeled correctly over time is going to be the challenge of the hobby.

I heard BTW 300 pumilio [permit allowed 500] came into FLA this past week. Some went overseas, and a large portion were sold here.

S


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> I just have more confidence in a "frog" importer then a "anything that crawls, hops, leaps, slithers, glides, wiggles, swims, flys etc." importer. They all probably come form the same source - I just question the qualification of the folks doing the picking when darts is not their area of expertise. I don't think anyone is capable of making ID 100% of the time - but a dart pro can hand pick and leave the questionable stuff to the flippers.


I know for a fact that well respected frogger (and board member) sorted and labeled the last shipment for them and help show them the differences. 



JL-Exotics said:


> Sometimes you can tell at a glance, but that really is part of the concern. There are people misrepresenting animals. And that goes back to the gist of my question - is it worth your peace of mind to pay more from a reliable & trusted source with a good history in the hobby?
> I think this board has proven that most folks don't follow that advice. SHOULD a flipper be expected to take these steps before offering for sale? Some do, some don't - and they all set comparabe prices.


I have seen more issues of this on this board of mislabel or quick scams than I have in all my years here. I purchased 6 last shipment, received two for sure pairs and sold the other two (mancreek). I treat them all, and the local frogger who purchased them is happy with his purchase. I complete a 30 day quarantine and treat the animals, I do this with all incoming animals, it is not worth the risk. 



JL-Exotics said:


> I see your point, but compared to someone with years of working with pumilio I don't think there is any comparison. I have seen frogs from the importer purchases as bastis, that were almirante. They are getting better, but to them a red frog is a red frog - they don't care. They have a ton of animals to move out and that is a priority... Not ensuring your El Dorados are not really cristobals.


I have experienced this first hand, however I could tell what they were when they arrived. I am not a jobber but a hobbyist, I see this more of an issue for non-connected to the community new hobbyist. Importers do want to make money, but they are getting the feeling that they need information to serve a customer base, and a returning customer base. 



JL-Exotics said:


> Bingo. Where have all the bastis gone?? No imports for a year and they have become surprisingly scarce it seems...


Basti’s have been on more than one price list over the last 6 months. There was a shipment four weeks ago that had them, and I have a 1.1 from that shipment handpicked by the trusted frogger. How about the earlier “site specific” imports? Where are those frogs, F1, F2? 



rmelancon said:


> I have a problem with the labeling of non-site-specific frogs as 'junk'. That means every tinctorious, galactonotus, granuliferous, true blue jeans, histrionicus, sylvaticus, vents and various imitator tribe frogs (outside of UE frogs) and every frog in the hobby prior to about 1995 is junk. Just a thought.


I think some are becoming snobs of locale specific frogs. I had those feelings until I thought about you perspective Rob. There are lot of good founding frogs. The importer cited are all getting their frogs from the same exporter as many other importers. My feeling have been they are here, let’s not destine them for death but give them a good chance at getting established.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> ^ right
> 
> Ive got plenty of those in my collection. They aint junk to me
> 
> ...


Sound about right on the import numbers. 

My snob comment are more about the hate email I have received concerning selling WC and the "Odd ball Cobalt" frogs from anonymous emails. There were and are numinous.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> Agreed Robb,
> 
> My personal use of 'junk' was referring to 'sight' rather then 'site' specific animals eventually being crossed with other stock in the hobby --> leading to junk. Not the original animals themselves, just our poor stewarding.
> 
> ...


Yes, sorry, this was the context of the word "junk" for my original post. The Man Creek/Almirante/BJ example is exactly my concern. Not all importers are up on proper nomenclature. I have seen El Dorados that could pass for Bri Bri, I have seen Cristobals that could pass for El Dorados and so on. None of them are bad frogs - and "junk" is probably the wrong word to use... but when you buy direct from a huge importer you are just getting a best guess as to what morph they actually ship. They might be right 90% of the time - but what about that 10%? They are here and they should be enjoyed - as long as they are not given a best guess eyeball ID. 

I'm not suggesting there is anything we can do about it - I don't even have a problem with people buying the cheap frogs, getting a pair or two for themself and selling off the rest to help offset the initial investment. Nothing wrong with that at all - and it's not their fault that the frogs they purchase may or may not be mis-identified. 

I just have concerns about that whole system of distribution and I was wondering what percentage of the hobby was still willing to spend more for frogs from a reputable source.


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

You guys are forgetting another HUGE draw to the "FR" frogs coming in...their coloration is absolutely brilliant compared to most...not all..captive bred specimen. Very luring when you have two frogs...one from a "valid source" and one that slaps you in the face with it's coloration but the exact local is unknown.

The average hobbyist simply does not care.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> I have seen more issues of this on this board of mislabel or quick scams than I have in all my years here. I purchased 6 last shipment, received two for sure pairs and sold the other two (mancreek).


Agreed... I do question your mancreeks though. I have been told that all the red body/blue leg frogs are Almirantes and that true man creeks have not been imported in years. This is just what I've been told, and I have no means to verify that information - so if you know differently I would be interested in hearing about your experience - for both of our benefit. I'm not suggesting you didn't get man creeks - just that your experience does not match with what I've been told. One of us may have been mis-informed - if it's me, I would certainly like to know.




JJuchems said:


> Basti’s have been on more than one price list over the last 6 months. There was a shipment four weeks ago that had them, and I have a 1.1 from that shipment handpicked by the trusted frogger. How about the earlier “site specific” imports? Where are those frogs, F1, F2?


Yes, I generalized in my statement. My understanding is that only a handful of basti's have come in here and there. Just 5 or 10 animals at a time per shipment - rathen then the 200-500 lots that had been coming in recent years. Either way, the CB offspring don't seem to be well represented in the classifieds... 




JJuchems said:


> I think some are becoming snobs of locale specific frogs. I had those feelings until I thought about you perspective Rob. There are lot of good founding frogs. The importer cited are all getting their frogs from the same exporter as many other importers. My feeling have been they are here, let’s not destine them for death but give them a good chance at getting established.


Yikes! Who said anything about putting frogs to death!! There are plenty of valid founding stock frogs in the country. A aurotaenia is an aurotaenia, an orange galact is an orange galact, a Red Head histo is a Red Head histo... all fine founding animals.

I guess it's just like any others sales outlike - comparing a mom & pop pet shop with say a Petco. Petco folks are fine people, but they can't be expected to be experts on every item they stock. You pay a little more at the mom & pop shop, but you are also more likely to get what you ask for too. For that matter, I would rather buy frogs from an experienced hobbiest like you Jason - then at a Petco.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Agreed... I do question your mancreeks though. I have been told that all the red body/blue leg frogs are Almirantes and that true man creeks have not been imported in years.


This is very similar to what I've been told about the 2007-2008 imports. 



JL-Exotics said:


> Yikes! Who said anything about putting frogs to death!! There are plenty of valid founding stock frogs in the country. A aurotaenia is an aurotaenia, an orange galact is an orange galact, a Red Head histo is a Red Head histo... all fine founding animals.
> .


The problem is that each time one of these discussions occurs somewhere in the discussion comments about site-specificity are made with the implication that known frogs are more desirable, than frogs with no site data. This carries a message that frogs without site specificity are not as desirable. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MD_Frogger said:


> You guys are forgetting another HUGE draw to the "FR" frogs coming in...their coloration is absolutely brilliant compared to most...not all..captive bred specimen.


Thats a huge overstatement IMO.

...wouldn't use the word "brilliant" or "Most".......


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Thats a huge overstatement IMO.
> 
> ...wouldn't use the word "brilliant" or "Most".......


Gathering from your previous posts you have seen probably 100x more FR specimen than I so please share your experience of coloration in FR v CB frogs. From my experience it's been rare to find CB frogs with the same "pop" in coloration as their FR parents.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The difference in cb frogs versus wc (actual FR frogs from Panama right now are like bigfoot sightings... lots of reports and no real evidence) isn't surprising as it has only been within the last couple of years that a better understanding of what is needed to restore and maintain color in captive bred frogs has occured.. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MD_Frogger said:


> Gathering from your previous posts you have seen probably 100x more FR specimen than I so please share your experience of coloration in FR v CB frogs. From my experience it's been rare to find CB frogs with the same "pop" in coloration as their FR parents.


First, there is no such thing as Farm Raised pumilio.

Some of the Sarapiqui area pumilio are def much more colourful than other blue jean morphs, but again, it's all kind of relative.

I just wanted to counterbalance your statement, because I can see many new people using it as a billboard - "All wild caught frogs look 1000 times brighter than dull washed out CB frogs".


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

Ed - Other than naturose, superpig, paprika and other red enhancers are there additional supplements that can enhance our cbfrogs to the luster of some of the wild frogs coming in?

Phil - I am fully aware of the FR issue...just look at the first post you quoted me on an notice the quotation marks. I was hoping for more a detailed account from you since you spend so much time in FL where most these guys seem to come in and actually get to see them before they are shipped out to us lowly new froggers. Take your gorgeous El Dorado...have you kept any offspring to adulthood and noticed them to be as vivid as their parents were when you first received them?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

MD_Frogger said:


> Ed - Other than naturose, superpig, paprika and other red enhancers are there additional supplements that can enhance our cbfrogs to the luster of some of the wild frogs coming in?
> 
> Phil - I am fully aware of the FR issue...just look at the first post you quoted me on an notice the quotation marks. I was hoping for more a detailed account from you since you spend so much time in FL where most these guys seem to come in and actually get to see them before they are shipped out to us lowly new froggers. Take your gorgeous El Dorado...have you kept any offspring to adulthood and noticed them to be as vivid as their parents were when you first received them?


Here's what I see from "down south"...lol

The imported pums run the gamut from great to drab. I've seen and selected some imported Man Creeks with powder blue grey legs and cherry red bodies that look "nicer" than 90% of any Blue Jeans in the hobby. 

I've also seen some blue jeans in situ that were "ugly" by hobby standards as well. The campesinos and collectors are paid per live frog. WC stuff is def not 100% colourful and popping. 

The colour red on pumilio is very hard to quantify in terms of Frog Skin. Orange and Red appear very differently to the human eye (and certainly photograph).

On supplementation: Marcus B feeds all his non obligate tadpoles that he houses in large fish tanks, Paprika. He says is absolutely helps colour the frogs when ingested as tadpoles.


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

I prefer CB frogs as I feel safer from parasites and diseases and such. I have done all the research I can to trace my frogs lineage, some of them still have "unknown" next to that spot though. My Auratus were traced back to a somewhat local breeder who wholesales to sellers at shows. Thats where I got them. Does it matter to me that they are "unknown" lineage? Heck NO! They are great frogs. They are also equally as "froggy" if not more so than all my other frogs. I only track the lineage data (as best I can) of my frogs on the off case I trade some or decide to sell some one day. This way I can give as much data to whomever gets them. They are still beautiful frogs, and obviously not hybrids, so the lineage data IMO is more for the future of the hobby, and the peace of mind of the buyer than anything else. But I'm new.....so take this with a grain of salt.


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

That's what I was looking for Phil! So it's safe to say not all imports are poster frogs for their stated morph? I wonder if any of the "dullness" in the wc's has anything to do with age...an older frog loosing pigmentation thus loosing the vibrant hue they once may have had.

Apology to op if this has strayed too far off topic...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MD_Frogger said:


> Ed - Other than naturose, superpig, paprika and other red enhancers are there additional supplements that can enhance our cbfrogs to the luster of some of the wild frogs coming in?


 
If one looks in the literature at the carotenoids found in anurans one sees that there are six primary carotenoids... astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, beta-carotene, beta-cryptoxanthin, lycopene, zeaxanthin, and lutein and a number of others present in small amounts (example beta-crotene and 4-hydroxy echinone in bombina). Now one has to keep in mind that the ability to sequester and deposit carotenoids into the skin is going to depends on a number of factors such as frequency of offering those carotenoids, absorbtion of those carotenoids (which depends on several factors), metabolic demand for use as a provitamin A source, deposition in eggs, and immunological needs (this is not all inclusive). So the time it takes to color a frog back up can be variable but anecdotal reports seem to be hanging around the 3-6 month period if the frogs are allowed to continue to reproduction. 

Of the supplements currently on the market only the Repashy brands contains the widest variety of the above carotenoids. 

I am attaching a picture of a almirante that has been supplemented with astaxanthin and other carotenoids for the last 4 years. 


Ed


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

That picture is a great of example of what is possible when it comes to maintaining colors.



Ed said:


> If one looks in the literature at the carotenoids found in anurans one sees that there are six primary carotenoids... astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, beta-carotene, beta-cryptoxanthin, lycopene, zeaxanthin, and lutein and a number of others present in small amounts (example beta-crotene and 4-hydroxy echinone in bombina). Now one has to keep in mind that the ability to sequester and deposit carotenoids into the skin is going to depends on a number of factors such as frequency of offering those carotenoids, absorbtion of those carotenoids (which depends on several factors), metabolic demand for use as a provitamin A source, deposition in eggs, and immunological needs (this is not all inclusive). So the time it takes to color a frog back up can be variable but anecdotal reports seem to be hanging around the 3-6 month period if the frogs are allowed to continue to reproduction.
> 
> Of the supplements currently on the market only the Repashy brands contains the widest variety of the above carotenoids.
> 
> ...


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Agreed... I do question your mancreeks though. I have been told that all the red body/blue leg frogs are Almirantes and that true man creeks have not been imported in years. This is just what I've been told, and I have no means to verify that information - so if you know differently I would be interested in hearing about your experience - for both of our benefit. I'm not suggesting you didn't get man creeks - just that your experience does not match with what I've been told. One of us may have been mis-informed - if it's me, I would certainly like to know.


From what I understand site specific Almirantes were imported in 2004 I believe by Kevin Moser. Then SNDF (Marcus Beece) brought "site specific" frogs in 2005-2006 with site id's. Mancreeks imports have never been "site specific" (that I recall). Stories of being collected in drainage ditches near Mancreek, view of morph guides, or just labeling them Almirantes/Mancreeks. Keep in mind there are "Site specific" or id Almirantes so they should not be mixed. What makes you think they are not Mancreeks? Phenotypically they are the same and just as variable. 




JL-Exotics said:


> Yes, I generalized in my statement. My understanding is that only a handful of basti's have come in here and there. Just 5 or 10 animals at a time per shipment - rathen then the 200-500 lots that had been coming in recent years. Either way, the CB offspring don't seem to be well represented in the classifieds...


This is an interesting part. I am assuming a lot end up with jobbers. I know one person who is hold them back from last years shipment to create larger groups. He was disappointed his red pairs have been producing yellow and orange froglets, not red. He contacted me via email on the issue. I think he is now using SuperPig and understands the colors can be crossed (not Red Beach). 






JL-Exotics said:


> Yikes! Who said anything about putting frogs to death!! There are plenty of valid founding stock frogs in the country. A aurotaenia is an aurotaenia, an orange galact is an orange galact, a Red Head histo is a Red Head histo... all fine founding animals.


I was meaning death by importer/jobber/pet shop that has no idea on care and letting them stress out. 



JL-Exotics said:


> For that matter, I would rather buy frogs from an experienced hobbiest ... - then at a Petco.


I am afraid that PetCo will end up with them. A local store has had frilled dragons, mantellas, and bumblebee toads in the last 6 months.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> From what I understand site specific Almirantes were imported in 2004 I believe by Kevin Moser. Then SNDF (Marcus Beece) brought "site specific" frogs in 2005-2006 with site id's. Mancreeks imports have never been "site specific" (that I recall). Stories of being collected in drainage ditches near Mancreek, view of morph guides, or just labeling them Almirantes/Mancreeks. Keep in mind there are "Site specific" or id Almirantes so they should not be mixed. What makes you think they are not Mancreeks? Phenotypically they are the same and just as variable.


Again, this is just what I have been told... but any red frog with dark legs that has been imported in the last 5 years was collected from th Almirante area. The mancreek area is a good distance north and would represent a population distinct from Almirante. That is the only reason I would doubt you have mancreeks - nothing personal against you. I have heard it debated that they were the same population, but I am told by people that have been to both populations that they are indeed separated by a good distance.

Short of going down there and collecting them yourself we probably can never really be sure where they were collected. Thats why the smugglers have the most accurate site data...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

From a mailing list I am on - my brain just exploded. That said, I've also heard that Panama is closing soon.

"A shipment of O. pumilio just arrived from Panama on 3/31/11. We got adult sized "Farm Raised" El Dorados (several varieties!) as well as a large group of Cauchero Blues. 

The El Dorados that we got are extremely nice! We have not had these arrive like this for some time. The El Dorados are extremely variable and the color/intensity has to do with the exact mountain slope that they were originally collected from. These frogs are very nicely colored. The shipment contained several of the Red form and these will be put into two groups that will be sold as groups of three. These are very rare and there are usually only a couple of individuals in a shipment of 200 or 300 frogs. This time there were six! The rest are all a very nice true orange color. We also got several individuals of incredible El Dorados that have very heavy pattern to them. These will be put together and sold as groups of three (there are very few of these!).

We got a large group of Cauchero Blues as well. These frogs are spectacular as usual! This is a very unique morph of O. pumilio that have a very dark color. They usually show a dark top but have beautiful blue sides. Some of the frogs are even more of a turquoise color. We generally do not use a flash when we take pictures of these and instead we use just bright vivarium lighting to capture the blue color. We even got one individual that has a very clear spotted pattern! These are very rare and usually there is only one per 150 O. pumilio Cauchero that we see. In some shipments they are completely absent. We also got two Black morph Caucheros. These are just a little bit more frequent... This time there was only two out of 150 Caucheros. These are a flat black color with no blue! These two individuals will be sold together. "


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## dart666 (Sep 18, 2010)

JL-Exotics said:


> I'm just curious what the general concensus is in the hobby right now...
> 
> Seems like folks can't wait to grab cheap pums as soon as they hit US soil straight from the importer.
> 
> ...


Damn! thought you had pums for sale! Just another sad thread


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> From a mailing list I am on - my brain just exploded. That said, I've also heard that Panama is closing soon.
> 
> "A shipment of O. pumilio just arrived from Panama on 3/31/11. We got adult sized "Farm Raised" El Dorados (several varieties!) as well as a large group of Cauchero Blues.
> 
> ...


If I am correct on who this person is, they tend to sell trios on kingsnake, does not import. They just cherry pick from the importers, which aligns with the shipment I ordered from that had others.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Just my two cents
These recent 3-31-11 " el dorado" imports are actually las tablas and delicias and I have the frogs from a very reliable source and close friend whoms job it is to constantly travel to south america as a zoo director of marketing... thats why the f'n jobbers have no clue what they just got and decided to go with what most closely resembles these new pumilios....come on!.!.! Bribri??? Mountain slope el dorado??? 

Soorten fotoalbum

Check for yourself. Wish strictly or his pickers actually someway somehow took note of where they picked.....just for the sake of some peace of mind....sucks thinking you bought a kool new speckled bribri...then no....an el dorado...then who knows.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Here's another example regarding supplementation. This is a captive-bred Blue Jeans whose parents are WC frogs from the '99 Nicaragua imports. Like Ed's frog, it has received astaxanthin as well.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

So lack of supplementation on blue jeans turns thwir undersides white? Or whats the deal? My blue jeans bellies have been noticably turning white...


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