# pumilio shipment



## Guest (Jan 23, 2005)

has anyone else seen this yet? http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=14&de=286548.

just seems like it's a disaster waiting to happen and there will be a huge amount of fatalities. I'm hoping the people that do end up ordering these frogs have the facilities, medicine and experience to keep them healthy.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

My experience with him was a disaster. I would be VERY careful if anyone is contemplating doing this..although my order was for 5 frogs, the package got lost in transit, the company lost my tracking number. Had a few frogs die. I called a few times about the order but they could not be bothered returning my calls or replacing anything. This is just my experience and a little friendly advice.

-Mike


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

I personally had a bad experience ordering termites, about two months later they were finally sent and severly undercounted. After seeing his animals at shows I wouldn't order anything from him. It seems like he is in it just to make a quick buck.


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

Definitely seems like he is trying to make a quick buck this time. On previous shipments didn't he actually start to treat them and pair them off and what not? It is kind of sad that he tried to take care of them last time but now he just wants to add new heat packs once he receives them and then ship them off to whoever! 

-Shelley


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

snmreptiles said:


> Definitely seems like he is trying to make a quick buck this time. On previous shipments didn't he actually start to treat them and pair them off and what not? It is kind of sad that he tried to take care of them last time but now he just wants to add new heat packs once he receives them and then ship them off to whoever!
> 
> -Shelley


I don't have any experience with this vendor and would be leary but I actually think this is the preferred way to distribute animals to hobbyists. The only WC animals I ever bought were BJ pumilio I got through Incredible Pets. All Pete did was hand pick animals on arrival, place them in tanks long enough to observe whether they were eating and attempt to sex as best he could, and then ship them off to the end user. I had my frogs within 72 hours of their leaving Nicaragua. I think this is less stressful to the frogs and I would rather be able to treat them myself than relying on an importer that is juggling hundreds of animals. In my case I had a very large well planted vivarium ready to go and I chose to not treat the animals and just add them to the viv. There were six of them and I had zero losses. I should add that these frogs were housed 20 miles away from my other frogs so disease transmission was not a concern.

In general, I think the present dogma that all frogs should be treated by the importer before shipping them out is wrong. What SHOULD happen is the importers should attempt to NOT sell delicate frogs to people ill-equiped to deal with them (yea, like THAT'S going to happen), and they should try to get the frogs to the end customer as quickly as possible with a minimum of stress. The purchaser should rely on their own expertise and intuition to decide whether and how to treat the animals when they arrive. I just think the longer the frogs spend in a facility containing thousands of animals and getting who knows what kind of hastily administered treatment is a recipe for disaster.


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2004)

I had the same experience w/ a pumilio shipment from Pete as well. The "hand-off" method seems to work the best as far as wc shipments go. Yes, the frogs spend a longer time in transit, but as Brent stated before, importers are dealing with hundreds of frogs at a time, and watching to make sure that every one of them is eating isn't fathomable. Let's not forget to mention the other 1500 or so herps in the facility that require their daily attention as well. I think they're better off in the hands of hobbyists......if that is who they're going to..... :?


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2005)

I have no problem with them going to experienced hobbyists. from what I've heard about seaside, they'd be much better off in their hands anyways. but in lots of 25-100, I think a lot of them will be going to pet stores.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Personally I had two decent experiences with that vendor. They were both about 5-6 years ago however. Soon after my purchases through that vendor he had people after him for various allegations of theft and fraud. 
One thing you do have to give that vendor credit for is, he has done a pretty good job of photoshoping some veiled chameleons. I feel sorry for whoever ends up ordering lots of those frogs......


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

kinetic said:


> I have no problem with them going to experienced hobbyists. from what I've heard about seaside, they'd be much better off in their hands anyways. but in lots of 25-100, I think a lot of them will be going to pet stores.


I didn't catch that part. You're right. These shipments aren't targeted for hobbyists and that sucks.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ya really disagree with what they are doing there. If someone wants that many they might as well get them imported themselves. Though there could be a bit of upfront cost as I have no idea what is required.


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2004)

More than likely these pumilio will go to "show hoppers". Those who buy large quantities of animals (that they know nothing about) and take them to shows to sell at a 25-50% markup. I do know of a couple of hobbyists that are going to buy 25 lots of these frogs to start breeding projects. Unfortunately, that will only account for about 50 pumilio out of hundreds of that will be coming in.


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

I don't understand why this would be shocking or upsetting to anyone. This is how the reptile and amphibian trade works. The only part that is unique about it this time is that a dealer is publicly advertising what he is selling. Deals like this go on behind our backs all of the time. Yes, I'm sure the dealer is trying to make a quick buck. They are a business and their goal is to make money.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

It can be hard sometimes to have to face the business side of this hobby. Most of the time im just excited and content that I have new frogs and am able to care for the to the best of my ability. And am able to work with and purchase animals from small breeders/HOBBYISTS. But every so often im taken back by things that I witness and hear about from the business side of this hobby and it gives me a quick reality check.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Devin Edmonds said:


> I don't understand why this would be shocking or upsetting to anyone. This is how the reptile and amphibian trade works. The only part that is unique about it this time is that a dealer is publicly advertising what he is selling. Deals like this go on behind our backs all of the time. Yes, I'm sure the dealer is trying to make a quick buck. They are a business and their goal is to make money.


I don't think anyone finds it shocking because yes, this is how business has been done for a long time. But how could it NOT be upsetting? Hundreds of frogs die for no good reason. I have no problem with people making money from frogs but that does not excuse them for a lack of ethics. There have been importations in the past that were done ethically and responsibly that netted the importer a reasonable profit while trying to insure the best possible chance for survival of the frogs.

So are you suggesting that we just say, "Oh jeez, these guys are just trying to make a living. It's okay that hundreds of frogs will die." I personally think it is good for the hobby to voice our opinions about practices we find unethical. This is the herp equivalent of a puppy mill.


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

> This is the herp equivalent of a puppy mill.


It is! I agree with everything that you have said Brent. I do understand how the ship it to the buyer right away method would be better off for the frogs. I never even thought about that. Having worked at a huge reptile wholesaler before I can see how they may not be taken care of fully and where a hobbyist could provide MUCH better circumstances for survival. That is "if" they got into the right hands. I for one know nothing about treating fresh imports and don't have a knowledgeable vet around to help with that issue either. The thing that gets me in this case is that he seemed to really care about the frogs in the first go round. Now he has done a complete 180 with how he is treating the animals. Did he just realize that it took a lot of time and effort to do it right and doesn't want to waste that much this time? I just don't see how you can go from caring so much about the animals health and getting them a good start to just cranking them out...like a "puppy mill". Thanks for clearing some things up, in my head anyway, Brent.

-Shelley


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

> I don't think anyone finds it shocking because yes, this is how business has been done for a long time. But how could it NOT be upsetting? Hundreds of frogs die for no good reason.


When I skimmed this thread last night I got the impression that people felt angry at this dealer, or even betrayed by Seaside Reptiles, because they were selling pumilio in large quantities when they previously had only publicly sold pumilio in small amounts to hobbyists. It was interesting to me that people would be upset about this because Seaside Reptiles is a reptile dealer and that's how reptile dealers conduct business. It should be upsetting to all of us that money is often put before the welfare of captive amphibians, but I don't think it makes sense to get upset at this particular dealer when they are just doing business in a way that all large dealers do. Sorry for any confusion,


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Hey*

Not to echo everyone's statements but...What kills me is the 10 year old who buys some only to have them die and then who gets the blame? Sure the vendor (who they never see again) but the hobby as well. There will be those beginners who make an impulsive purchase and pay for it with emotional loss and cash. They will now lump all dart froggers, and breeders into the category of "Scam Artists." I'm not saying that this person is a scam artist, but he is potentially perpetuating a cycle that time and again creates bad pub for the hobby, and the deaths of frogs. There needs to be reguations in place to prevent this.
Dave


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

*my 2 cents....*

i was at a show and this dealer had 2 of the red&gray/blue legged pumilios. i asked how long did they have them the guy told they got them in on a thursday and they were being sold on a saturday. 
the thing is these animals are for profit and not as pets. so the quicker turnover the better for them. then they don't have to worry about feeding them which cost money.
as for the "lot" shipment doesn't sound good because anyone who would take care of the frogs probably has them already. and as was stated it is catered more for the petshops.
you could always do a group buy. if i had any frogger friends this is something i might consider. the other thing is you don't know for sure when they will be in. like the last time they were being brought into this country.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I for one would definitely be interested in participating in a group buy.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Am I hearing this right? After everything that's been said in this thread about this particular vendor and the ethics of this importation that people are actually willing to line up and spend money to support these guys?

Do yourselves a favor, shop around.


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes here but lets not be hypocrites. Someone is supplying these US wholesalers with cb auratus and other hard to sell frogs. These frogs face the same fate as these pumilio being raised in greenhouses. How is that any better or worse? Why do you need to call out Seaside when every single dealer does the same thing? Maybe because he is importing pumilio, not some less important species? Maybe because he is not hiding the business aspects of this hobby? Everyone is free to believe whatever they want but I don’t think that it is fair to continuously bash Glenn’s business. 

If you go to Petco and buy dog food or other supplies then you are supporting a company that sends hundreds of thousands of animals to their death in the hands of untrained keepers. 

My two cents
-Blake


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

If I'm not mistaken, almost all of our recently imported Pums went through Seaside at one point. How is it more hypocritical to continue the trend? I'd rather have the animals go straight to experienced hobbyists and breeders than petstores. What other options are there? To boycott Seaside and any large scale breeder that buys up these 50 and 100 lots? Then what? Let the animals wither away on petstore shelves? Bottom line, they're going to be imported. I think that it's the responsible thing to do to see to it that they get into capable hands.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

ill second bwood


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

If "almost all" is less than 50% - you're right.

They're coming in through a common importer. 

The importer is supplying a *number* of secondary folks - Seaside among them. From what I have seen, Seaside has not received any since about the 2nd (or so) shipment.

Could be Seaside has found another importer though.

s


Dane said:


> If I'm not mistaken, almost all of our recently imported Pums went through Seaside at one point...


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

It seems with most of the posts that people would rather keep a blind eye on the pet importation. Is it wrong that this many frogs are imported? Yes. Is it it wrong that, unfortunatly, a number of these frogs will die? Yes. But to bash or support the practice is a personal/ethical decision. Sure hobbyists can buy 'em all up to provide them with the care they need but will that stop the practice? No. Unless you want to delve deeper into the root of the problem that has gotten everyone up in arms, let it go. It's a double edged sword. Stopping the importation of frogs in this manner would decrease the depth of the gene pool, increase the scarcity of certain species, and further raise the price of available animals. If you choose to "rescue" these frogs or do nothing you in turn allow this practice and everything continues as it is. So, think long and hard about why and how you would/could effect this practice. 
The only concern I would have is if these frogs were wild caught. Then we'd be dealling with a much larger problem.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Blake-

I agree that it may be unfair to fault Glenn anymore than any of the other amphibian importers. Before I got into frogs I was heavily involved in chameleons. I worked with the Chameleon Information Network to investigate some of the facilities that importers used to bring in these animals. Most were horrible. Tons of animals crammed into one 20-gallon tank with no food or fresh water. And some were actually clean and well set up. I do not wish to give someone a bad name that is not deserving of one. Without visiting Glenn’s facility first hand I cannot do that. However, I have done business with Glenn. I purchased about $1300 worth of frogs. I was told he would call with a tracking number...he never did. I called and was told he lost it (at that point I didn’t even know if this guy just took my money and ran). The frogs arrived a day and a half late (still alive). I called Glenn to tell him about this and never got a call back. These were guaranteed for a week and I lost 2 of the four before that. Again I called Glenn and didn't get a call back. I even had 2 of the trio of Azureus that I purchased from Glenn die on me (and a necropsy revealed a heavy parasite load on his CB "breeder" stock). I am not here to point fingers at importers because I know there are some very good ones. And I agree, the best thing for the frogs would be that they didn't sit in Glenn's facility. However, my experience doing business with Glenn is a bad one..and while not pointing a finger at his importation techniques, his bad business techniques are appalling. This is my experience though. I would not buy another frog from Seaside ever.

-Mike


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

*up on my soapbox.*

about what i wrote last night. i am not picking on just seaside. i am pretty sure that i know who he gets them from in fla. i don't think he gets them straight from the "boat".
my friend owns a nature store. when he buys it takes a few weeks for a person to buy the animal because he doesn't want to sell a sick animal. this is just an example,he called the one pet broker and asked if they had so and so,they said yes. he asked if they could hold onto them for a few days till the temp warmed uped,they said no. figure how many of these animals will be sold. the pumilios seem to always come in with auratus. where do these go. unfortunatly this is life. you go to a store and buy a frog that doesn't look good and a week later the same type of frog is at the store again. this subject was talked about on here a bit back.this is a topic we all could talk about for hours on end. 
i think brent mentioned about lining up for this next shipment, if not seaside then there are others who are willing to sell in groups of so and so. seaside is the only one so far that is advertising the group buy. sort of like the panamain auratus thing a bit back. or years ago blue jean pumilio. 
again i am not picking on seaside specificly. we are all $ hungry. look at what we are selling our frogs to each other for. this is life. some of the "old timers" remember when a blue jean went for $35.00 a piece, and that was bit expensive. 
ok,i'm down off my soapbox.

walt


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I'm sorry but what I'm reading here really pisses me off. I've spent my career as a professional conservationinst and I'm telling you that if you want this hobby to stay viable into the future, you had better start using your buying dollars to vote for more sustainable importation practices. There are plenty of groups out there that would love to shut down the pet trade so I wouldn't get too complacent about assuming that there will always be animals imported. I wonder if the guys that shot the last remaining bison or trapped the last wolves used the argument, "well this is how it has always been done." In fact, I do NOT think this is how it is always done because this type of importation severs a direct connection between the importation and the hobbyist. Importations in the past have allowed for a very quick transfer (read direct) of the imported animals to the end hobbyist who has the experience to keep them alive. Selling in lots of 20-50 is all but guaranteeing that the frogs will be shopped around, adding to their stress, and leading to their demise. Forgive me for not wanting the hobby to support such practices. And as for cb animals being sold to wholesaler, yes, obviously it happens. But the people I associate with in the hobby don't do it. I don't buy, sell, or trade frogs with such people and neither do the many people I know in the hobby. Just because it happens doesn't make it right and everyone knows the smart shopper will go directly to the breeders for animals.

Another thing that really gripes me is that anytime someone voices opposition to unethical practices, they get accused of being hypocritical. Give me a break. How can someone who speaks out against a practice and does NOT partake in those practices be a hypocrite? I believe strongly that our foremost responsiblity in this hobby is to conduct ourselves in a way that does not jeopardize wild populations of frogs or lead to undue suffering of animals. Forgive me for suggesting that we abstain from practices that are almost certainly going to lead to the doom of hundreds of animals. There ARE better ways to go about importing animals even if they are not commonly practiced. We should do what we can to demand them.

It just never ceases to amaze me how many ways people can rationalize practices they know in their hearts are wrong.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Brent,
What would you consider to be the ethical course of action in this situation? When you had said before to "shop around", what would this entail? Waiting for these frogs to get into a breeder's hands before I purchase them? thereby paying a 100-150% markup? Isn't that still supporting the importation? Secondly, aren't these frogs bred specifically for the pet trade? Naturally I don't want to see any of these beautiful animals die needlessly, but I don't see how that can be completely avoided. In order for them to get into our hot little hands, they must be stripped from their accustomed home and climate. Stress on the animals is a part of the process no matter how they're marketed. Again, no personal attacks intended here, just a debate.


No importation without representation! :wink:


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

deleated


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

Brent-

Let me be the first to say that I never meant to directly call you a hypocrite. I'm sure that all frogs in your collection were farm raised and imported in small numbers, in the most humane possible way. I'm also sure that they never spent one day in less than optimal conditions and that no frogs imported in these shipments have ever perished for reasons other than old age. 

I will say that it is ridiculous to compare frogs, raised specifically for exportation, to wild bison or wolves. Farm raising was created as an alternative to removing frogs from nature. Isn’t this an important step in conservation?

If you really feel that strongly about amphibian conservation, why don't you start an ethical importation company? Don't you think that if there were companies out there, who offered us a better choice, we would rather purchase from them?

There is no reason to get pissed off just because someone else does not agree with your point of view. We are after all just having a friendly little discussion. I thought that was the whole point of dendroboard.

-Blake


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dane said:


> Brent,
> What would you consider to be the ethical course of action in this situation? When you had said before to "shop around", what would this entail? Waiting for these frogs to get into a breeder's hands before I purchase them? thereby paying a 100-150% markup? Isn't that still supporting the importation? Secondly, aren't these frogs bred specifically for the pet trade? Naturally I don't want to see any of these beautiful animals die needlessly, but I don't see how that can be completely avoided. In order for them to get into our hot little hands, they must be stripped from their accustomed home and climate. Stress on the animals is a part of the process no matter how they're marketed. Again, no personal attacks intended here, just a debate.
> 
> 
> No importation without representation! :wink:


Long term I would like to see projects like INIBICO succeed and I would like to see exporters and local conservation groups teaming up to increase the value of conserving frogs and their habitats in the wild by supply the hobby with quality frogs. Short term I would look for an importer that will establish more direct communication between the end buyer and the exporter. My only experience importing wc frogs was through Pete at Incredible Pets. Pete was on the phone almost daily talking with the exporter and calling me, and who knows how many other cutomers with updates. At one point the shipment was delayed due to holiday air traffic so Pete requested the animals being held in Nicaragua be released and fresh animals captured. I have no way of knowing what actually happened on the ground but every appearance was that this shipment was being handled in the best way to get the animals quickly into the end buyer's hands with a minimum of stress. Pete has created many satisfied customers over the years.

I think ultimately we have to decide what business and ethical practices we are willing to support in persuit of a hobby that is a luxury. Personally it is impossible to justify supporting an importation that is not designed with regard to the animal's wellfare when there are so many cb species and morphs available in the hobby to satisfy my desires. I'm not opposed to importing farm raised or even WC animals. It can be done reasonably. But if this is the status quo, then we have problems.

Trust me that there are groups who could raise large sums of cash to raise public awareness of what is happening in the pet trade. What do you suppose the general public (who care nothing about keeping frogs) reaction would be if they were to learn that thousands of animals come in and almost all of them die? Do you suppose they would care for a second if the trade were shut down?


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Good topic*

This is a great topic and an interesting debate. I side with Brent on the subject. I am constantly worried that some yahoo gets in the hobby for a buck and does something so stupid that the feds take notice and our hobby is regulated away, so that we'll need permits and licenses for leopard frogs. Extreme? Maybe, but why even risk it? 

And we can do something about it. Especially when we have a voice with Dendroboard and other fine bulletin boards, and the power to make choices. I am so glad of all the local groups popping up and I hope more do as well. It is because of these groups that beginners get a good foothold into the hobby without being ripped off. These groups do a great job at having fun, but also at creatining an environment for trading frogs, sharing ideas, and educating one another. Even if that means the non-frogger. That way people can see that we are not the money grubbing monsters that a few people portray us to be. They can have access to frogs without having to risk buying an expensively, thin, parasite loaded animal.

Personally, in my own opinion, I do not by wild caught frogs. Why not? Well. What is wrong with captive bred animals? Mine breed just as quickly and in the same numbers as some wild caught pairs of people I know. I just don't see the need to grab large numbers of animals in the wild, when we have perfectly healthy ones right at home. Show me the data that wild caughts out perform captive bred animals in breeding production? And is that even so important? Even necessary? It is certainly not a requirement for enjoying these animals. I just personally have a problem stealing an animal from the wild and placing it in captivity without a choice or benefit for it. Many disagree with me and thats fine. But I will also agree that we do we need some importation. I say yes, but in limited quantities, to qualified people. There is a benefit in doing so. It satisfies the demand, and creates opportunities for others to enjoy these animals without having to go back again and again to their habitats. Brent mentioned the INIBCO project. I hope that instead of D. mysteriosus being imported (stolen) illegally. It is given the chance to breed for some of our premiere dart frog breeders. There are so many talented people out there who will do good things with these frogs, and in doing so create F1's, F2's and so on so that legal captive bred specimens can be purchased in the US with having to grab more from the wild. It has already happened with D. ventrimaculatus, and many, many others. 

But know this, as I mentioned before, we have the power to make large scale imports unsuccessful. Don't buy em, and tell people that you know not to as well. Eliminate the demand for these frogs by educating people through shows, boards, and groups. And believe it or not, I can actually contact my state and federal legislators and they get back to me. Write em, and tell em how you feel. If they are any good at what they do, they will get back to you. Try it, I have and it works. It won't eliminate people from obatining imported frogs completely, no way, but every drop in the bucket counts.
Dave


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

bwood1979 said:


> Brent-
> 
> Let me be the first to say that I never meant to directly call you a hypocrite. I'm sure that all frogs in your collection were farm raised and imported in small numbers, in the most humane possible way. I'm also sure that they never spent one day in less than optimal conditions and that no frogs imported in these shipments have ever perished for reasons other than old age.


Real nice. How is the above not a personal attack? For the record all but 3 of my frogs are from long term CB lines either purchased, traded, or received as gifts directly from fellow hobbyists. The 3 WC are described in my last post. In the 7-8 years I've been in this hobby, there has only been one importation that I had the desire and felt comfortable getting involved with. This doesn't mean it was the only importation I would feel comfortable with but I simply wasn't interested in the frogs of other shipments. I've steered clear of the others both because I don't agree with the practics used and because I'm not in the habit of flushing my money down a rat hole. Also for the record I never said that farm raised animals were a requirement for ethical importation. Animals can be ethically and sustainably harvested from the wild.



> I will say that it is ridiculous to compare frogs, raised specifically for exportation, to wild bison or wolves. Farm raising was created as an alternative to removing frogs from nature. Isn’t this an important step in conservation?


I was not speaking about this specific importation but about importation practices in general. You are the one who said this is the way it has always been done. Not all animals imported have been greenhouse or farm raised. Regardless, the point was that in the past people have continued to do things they knew were destructive because "that's how it has always been done".



> If you really feel that strongly about amphibian conservation, why don't you start an ethical importation company? Don't you think that if there were companies out there, who offered us a better choice, we would rather purchase from them?


Also nice. So if I strongly disagree with the quality of meat at my local butcher shop, my only option is to open my own butcher shop? I'm not allowed to complain to the butcher or take my business elsewhere? How many times does it have to be said that consumers vote with their dollars? There are efforts out there to do exactly as you suggest and develop some ethical and sustainable supplies.



> There is no reason to get pissed off just because someone else does not agree with your point of view. We are after all just having a friendly little discussion. I thought that was the whole point of dendroboard.
> 
> -Blake


You can disagree with me all you want, that doesn't piss me off. What pisses me off is that people unanimously agree that an importation is not being conducted with adequate concern for the wellfare of the animals and THEN turn around and rationalize why we have no choice but to support such operations even if we disagree with them. These are FROGS for cripes sakes. Something that only the richest people in the world can afford to keep in their homes as a LUXURY. Seems to me we have plenty of choice. Rationalize or not, this is still supporting a business practice that is guaranteed to kill almost all of the frogs.

Finally, I've tried as best I could to refrain from speaking specifically about this importation. I don't know the importer by anything but reputation. He may be a nice guy. The ONLY thing I have objected to about this advertisement is the 20-50 frog lot size. This says right up front that the individual hobbyist need not apply. These frogs are for middlemen only. Everything we know about importing and stabilizing wc animals suggests that eliminating middlemen is the single most important thing you could do to increase your chance of success. This lot size may be a common practice but it isn't the ONLY practice. Plenty of people of purchased frogs directly from the importer. So why would I, or anyone else in the hobby want to support an importation with a minimum lot size?


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

I don't feel that I can match or add to anything that has already been said. Other than I follow the thoughts of Brent and Dave. Amen to both of your last posts. Man Dave you made some great points. I for one don't really care if anyone else agrees with me or not, but everyone should at least open their eyes to both sides.

-Shelley


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

I've purchased farm raised dart frogs in large lots. I think the largest lot was somewhere around 70. It was several types of farm raised D. auratus when they first started to come in from Panama. I got some exceptional animals to keep for myself and some great animals to sell to others at a small profit to cover hobby expenses. I got 3 or 4 shipments. One was almost a total loss. It's a crap shoot. If you correspond with dealers and purchasers you get a feel for how things are coming in. You learn what to steer clear of. If the animals are coming in healthy and clean we are being offered desireable frogs at a decent price. It takes lots of work to manage 50 frogs. If the majority survive everything is great. If most die in a couple weeks somebody is a money grubing sob.
Before entering into a deal like this know exactly what is going on and exactly what the guarantees are. For the most part frog dealers are reputable but you can't expect the same guarantee from a large scale import you get from small imports and c.b. frogs. You should also expect to pay much less for the farm raised. I took the risk because I was getting frogs I could not find captive bred. I was happy with how things turned out but am not anxious to do it again.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Michael Shrom said:


> I've purchased farm raised dart frogs in large lots. I think the largest lot was somewhere around 70. It was several types of farm raised D. auratus when they first started to come in from Panama. I got some exceptional animals to keep for myself and some great animals to sell to others at a small profit to cover hobby expenses. I got 3 or 4 shipments. One was almost a total loss. It's a crap shoot. If you correspond with dealers and purchasers you get a feel for how things are coming in. You learn what to steer clear of. If the animals are coming in healthy and clean we are being offered desireable frogs at a decent price. It takes lots of work to manage 50 frogs. If the majority survive everything is great. If most die in a couple weeks somebody is a money grubing sob.
> Before entering into a deal like this know exactly what is going on and exactly what the guarantees are. For the most part frog dealers are reputable but you can't expect the same guarantee from a large scale import you get from small imports and c.b. frogs. You should also expect to pay much less for the farm raised. I took the risk because I was getting frogs I could not find captive bred. I was happy with how things turned out but am not anxious to do it again.


Michael, that's a very nice post and a good reality check about what it means to participate in one of these shipments. As a practical matter, I've always felt that the big importations should be handled by the most experienced froggers as Dave already mentioned. Those are the people with the experience to not only care for the frogs but make the best judgement about what and who to avoid. A little bit of patience can save you a lot of money in this hobby. I remember when the first terribilis were coming in to the U.S. form Europe. A lot of people lost a lot of money. Some losses went into the thousands of dollars. It's been a long time, but as I recall nearly all of the yellow and gold that first came in died. At the time of the first IAD, the first cb mints were being offered at $200 and up. People were peeing all over themselves to buy them. The experienced people knew what they were doing. Knew how to get the best deals and new how their investments would play out. But lots of people saw only dollar signs. They figured a $600-$800 investment would net them a quick profit as they sold offspring a year or so later for $200 a pop. But it doesn't work that way. By the time their frogs were producing, the market was saturated. The following year at IAD the price had dropped in half with some offered at $75 and the year after the frogs were hovering in the $60 range and I saw tadpoles offered at $30, plus the frogs being offered look much nicer than in those first years. That first IAD I picked up some bicolor at $25 each. The hype on terribs was so great that nobody wanted bicolor. I still have those frogs and they are just as cool as terribs. I just figure it takes a lot more experience, skill, and guts than I have to risk on mass imports so I will sit back and reap the fruits of the expert's labor. I won't be the first kid on the block to have the latest frog but I get just as much joy from watching my auratus anyway.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2005)

Great post folks.I'm sitting down hear listening to my green pums and imitators calling and it got me to thinking how someone out there did just what Micheal is doing to get them into my frogroom. Taking the gamble on the purchase of wc or fr frogs and establishing them in the hobby must give a great sense of accomplishment to the ones that aren't out for just a quick buck.
I just hope it doesn't get to the point that I see a viv at Petco with a bunch of pumilios or auratus in it all cramped up like I have seen fire belly toads.
It was very tempting to me when they first started offering the new pums but I wanted the green pums I have now so bad that there wasn't anything going to get in the way of me sticking to my plan on getting them and after an almost year long hunt I couldn't be any happier now.
I know it is hard for the newer people in the hobby to do it but I think being patient and taking things slower will do them more good then jumping in and buying a bunch of frogs from the start.
Yeah, I drifted a bit off topic here, I tend to do that,LOL
Mark


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

Brent-

I guess that I disagree with your assumption that 20-50 lots automatically excludes individual hobbyist. How do you think that people like Thomas or Patrick amassed such large collections of these frogs? I just assumed that this add was posted to give some of hobbyist who do not have their import/export license to get a wholesale price on these frogs and I don’t see anything wrong with that. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think that a lot of middle men shop for their stock on kingsnake. 

I not trying to condone all the importation practices that go on in this industry but I don’t think that it is as black and white as you claim it to be. The fact is that these shipments are coming in much better than they were just 10 years ago. I remember when you could buy blue jeans for 25 bucks and they would all come in really sick. I certainly don’t want this to happen again but I don’t think that this was only because they were imported in large numbers. 

Of course you are allowed to voice your opinion but, without other options, what do you suggest we do? Should we all boycott purchasing frogs that were not imported in the best possible way? Why shouldn’t we purchase what we can and get them breeding? By doing this, we are supplying the hobby with a better alternative. I personally believe that it is irresponsible to keep purchasing imported animals without breeding them but I am not going to try to stop someone who just wants to have a nice display.

I should have never said what I did about you personally. I don’t know you and I don’t know where you get your animals from but it pisses me off when people talk about how bad it is for us to get frogs from certain importers then turn around and purchase the offspring from these very frogs. Why should we be attacked for spending large sums of money and time to get healthy CB animals into the hands of hobbyist?

-Blake


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

I remember talking to one of our good friends who owns/operates a very successful reptile shop in So. Cal about the first shipment of "Farm Raised" pumilio. He had said he was offered the first importation, and the prices on the pums were $25-$35 a piece BUT to get them in you had to buy five times the amount in other frogs that you were spending on the pumilio. This is why you always see auratus with the import shipments, and why most people I know can't bring in their own shipments of pumilio. Personally I just want some Blue Jeans, and I don't think any other variety will do, so as someone else said I will wait and keep my eyes wide open!

MIKE


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

bwood1979 said:


> Brent-
> 
> I guess that I disagree with your assumption that 20-50 lots automatically excludes individual hobbyist. How do you think that people like Thomas or Patrick amassed such large collections of these frogs? I just assumed that this add was posted to give some of hobbyist who do not have their import/export license to get a wholesale price on these frogs and I don’t see anything wrong with that. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think that a lot of middle men shop for their stock on kingsnake.


But I hardly think that Thomas and Patrick are "individual hobbyists". They are businessmen who also happen to be very good hobbyists and ethical people. This is really my point. If there are enough entrepeneurs like Patrick and Thomas to make such importations in lots profitable, then that would be fine but you can't honestly think that these frogs are all targeted for people like that. They are targeted for brokers who will turn around and sell them for a profit while the frogs continue to stress waiting for a final home. I see no reason why the average hobbyist would risk their money to support such a venture.



> I not trying to condone all the importation practices that go on in this industry but I don’t think that it is as black and white as you claim it to be. The fact is that these shipments are coming in much better than they were just 10 years ago. I remember when you could buy blue jeans for 25 bucks and they would all come in really sick. I certainly don’t want this to happen again but I don’t think that this was only because they were imported in large numbers.


I have no complaint about the frogs coming in. My only complaint is with bulk quantities of frogs being sold to stock pet stores and trade show tables for a quick turnaround of profit. In my view this is the pet trade which the "hobby" should try to remain distanced from. Part of being in a "hobby" is supporting the long term good of the hobby. This doesn't do that.



> Of course you are allowed to voice your opinion but, without other options, what do you suggest we do? Should we all boycott purchasing frogs that were not imported in the best possible way?


Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. I thought I was pretty clear on that. Why go in on a risky group buy that supports this kind of thing when you can wait and shop around to purchase frogs from an importer that will sell you the number of frogs you want directly?



> Why shouldn’t we purchase what we can and get them breeding? By doing this, we are supplying the hobby with a better alternative. [quote:qpifea7a]Because it's a LUXURY. We don't HAVE to have these frogs. IF frogs become available that meet a reasonable standard of ethics, then of course, get them if you want them. But if they don't meet that standard, nobody is putting a gun to our heads and forcing us to buy them. And because this hobby is a luxury, I think we should hold ourselves to the highest ethical standard. What really got my unders in a wad over this thread is that it started out with everyone agreeing that this probably isn't in the best interest of the frogs or the hobby and then suddenly it turned to talk of pitching in for a group purchase. We do have options. It's called buying directly from a good importer who will work with you.
> 
> [quote:qpifea7a]I personally believe that it is irresponsible to keep purchasing imported animals without breeding them but I am not going to try to stop someone who just wants to have a nice display.


Well I believe it is more complicated. I believe there actually is potential to promote wild conservation through a sustainable harvest of animals for the hobby. I think there is a big opportunity for eco-tourism to guide clients through the CITES process to get permits for personal collection and provided guided tours by conservation savy naturalists who take you to places where regulated and monitored collecting can by conducted. I also think that "farm raised" and "greenhouse raised" animals can be good for both the hobby and conservation. I also think that very well regulated collection from the wild can do the same. I still prefer CB animals for all of the reasons already known but my mind is not closed to the idea of perpetual and sustainable imports. But how those imports are conducted is as important to the long term wellfare of the hobby as how the animals are collected from the wild.



> I should have never said what I did about you personally. I don’t know you and I don’t know where you get your animals from but it pisses me off when people talk about how bad it is for us to get frogs from certain importers then turn around and purchase the offspring from these very frogs. Why should we be attacked for spending large sums of money and time to get healthy CB animals into the hands of hobbyist?
> 
> -Blake


[/quote:qpifea7a][/quote:qpifea7a]

I will admit that I have a hair trigger on this topic because over the past 35 years or so, I've seen reptile and amphibian hobbyists rationalize the most outrageously unethical practices to quell their consciences about how they obtained their animals. I've also worked as a biologist in the conservation field for the past 20 years and I must have seen a million ways that people rationalize continuing or supporting ultimately destructive practices. I thought this thread took a very bizarre turn as I stated before and the insinuation that this kind of thing is the only game in town kind of blew me away.

I'm also sorry that I'm so touchy about personal comments. Normally I'm unphased by such things but this was the second time in a few weeks that I've been accussed of being a hypocrite on this board by someone assuming I do things that I don't.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Hi Blake*

Hi Blake,

You said, "Why shouldn’t we purchase what we can and get them breeding? By doing this, we are supplying the hobby with a better alternative."

My response to this is that there are just some frogs that DO NOT belong in the hobby. Perhaps due to habitat destruction, or perhaps due to the fragile nature of these aninmals. Some of these animals are threatened species. And some of these animals are not easy to keep and breed. That is why there are no waiting lists for certain frogs. That is why there are no legal species available of certain frogs.

Justin Yeager went to Costa Rica last year and quickly developed a concern for D. granuliferous in the hobby. In the field he noticed that the populations occured in specific locations with a mutitude of factors. Too many factors to replicate in the hobby. They are out there in the hobby, and some people are having success with them but they are no ventrimaculatus. They are a unique animal with specific needs. This can be said of other species as well.

You also said, "I personally believe that it is irresponsible to keep purchasing imported animals without breeding them but I am not going to try to stop someone who just wants to have a nice display."

But my question to you is what is the benefit? A nice display is great, but its the long term consequenses that bother me. If a frog doesn't breed or has a 50:50 chance at making it, then should it be exported for display purposes? No way. 

As I mentioned before, I am not totally against importation of species. Qualifiers apply for sure, but it boils down to intent. If the person is out to make a buck and could care less about a frog then I have an issue with that. Plus it always reflects on their history sooner or later. Mike Shrom admits that he has done some importing but his intent was different. True he is a business man but he does not cut corners to save a dollar or two. Go see Mike at IAD and it is all too apparent how much he loves frogs. Here is a guy who takes the time to do right by the frogs, and gets a healthy animal to his customers.

Dave


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Hi Blake*

Hi Blake,

You said, "Why shouldn’t we purchase what we can and get them breeding? By doing this, we are supplying the hobby with a better alternative."

My response to this is that there are just some frogs that DO NOT belong in the hobby. Perhaps due to habitat destruction, or perhaps due to the fragile nature of these aninmals. Some of these animals are threatened species. And some of these animals are not easy to keep and breed. That is why there are no waiting lists for certain frogs. That is why there are no legal species available of certain frogs.

Justin Yeager went to Costa Rica last year and quickly developed a concern for D. granuliferous in the hobby. In the field he noticed that the populations occured in specific locations with a mutitude of factors. Too many factors to replicate in the hobby. They are out there in the hobby, and some people are having success with them but they are no ventrimaculatus. They are a unique animal with specific needs. This can be said of other species as well.

You also said, "I personally believe that it is irresponsible to keep purchasing imported animals without breeding them but I am not going to try to stop someone who just wants to have a nice display."

But my question to you is what is the benefit? A nice display is great, but its the long term consequenses that bother me. If a frog doesn't breed or has a 50:50 chance at making it, then should it be exported for display purposes? No way. 

As I mentioned before, I am not totally against importation of species. Qualifiers apply for sure, but it boils down to intent. If the person is out to make a buck and could care less about a frog then I have an issue with that. Plus it always reflects on their history sooner or later. Mike Shrom admits that he has done some importing but his intent was different. True he is a business man but he does not cut corners to save a dollar or two. Go see Mike at IAD and it is all too apparent how much he loves frogs. Here is a guy who takes the time to do right by the frogs, and gets a healthy animal to his customers.

Dave


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

Dave-

You said, “But my question to you is what is the benefit? A nice display is great, but its the long term consequences that bother me. If a frog doesn't breed or has a 50:50 chance at making it, then should it be exported for display purposes? No way. “ If you re-read my post you will see that I said that I don’t think that frogs should be imported for display purposes only.

When I said, "Why shouldn’t we purchase what we can and get them breeding? By doing this, we are supplying the hobby with a better alternative", I was referring to farm raised animals.

Yes granuliferus are in the hobby, I happen to keep them myself. I am currently working on reproducing the factors that you claim are to numerous to replicate in the hobby and if you do your homework you will find people who have bred them on a regular basis.

I am kind of confused by your comments. It seems to me that you are saying that if a frog isn’t as prolific as vents are then they shouldn’t be in the hobby. I must disagree with you. I am one of the hobbyist who is working on keeping some of the harder species and find them very rewarding. If no one works with them and their habitat is destroyed then they will be lost.

-Blake


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

bwood1979 said:


> I am kind of confused by your comments. It seems to me that you are saying that if a frog isn’t as prolific as vents are then they shouldn’t be in the hobby. I must disagree with you. I am one of the hobbyist who is working on keeping some of the harder species and find them very rewarding. If no one works with them and their habitat is destroyed then they will be lost.
> 
> -Blake


I took what Dave said to mean that there are some frogs that are beyond the capabilities of captive reproduction AND are very vulnerable to exploitation in the wild. Frogs like granuliferus that live in small isolated pockets of habitat that support unique populations with locally specific adaptations may fit that description. I don't think anyone would argue that we shouldn't try hard to breed the frogs that are already here, but that doesn't mean it is ethical to smuggle or import more at the expense of wild populations just so we can establish captive populations.

The argument that if we don't get them in captivity and breed them, they might go extinct doesn't wash. What we are doing in the hobby does not come close to the requirements of maintaining a captive population for conservation. Conservation breeding requires that animals have precise locality data and a detailed pedigree along with each animal. Theoretically we (the hobby) could be a very important resource for conservation breeding programs but paradoxically, it is the notion that hobbyists are driven by profit and designer breedomg that is locking us out of the conservation game right now.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Hi Blake*

Hi Blake,

Clearly we are not getting our points across, but I see what you are saying now. After your last post I see that even agree on a few things. But you said:

"Yes granuliferus are in the hobby, I happen to keep them myself. I am currently working on reproducing the factors that you claim are to numerous to replicate in the hobby and if you do your homework you will find people who have bred them on a regular basis.' 

Define a reglular basis. I frequent frog shows and speak to a multitude of frog enthusiasts on a weekly basis. I can only think of a handful who have them, and their success is spotty at best. If you can breed them, then good on you. I hope you do and in the numbers needed to eliminate the demand for importing them. But I personally doubt that will happen, and not because of you, because of the natural history of the frog. You find it rewarding to work with some of the harder species and I applaud that. Because you "get it." You understand what the hobby is all about and you enjoy these wonderful animals. My point was not that we shouldn't work with these animals, we should. But again only if it benefits the hobby and the frogs. 

I was not saying that if a frog is not as prolific as a vent then why bother. Retic clutches are usually about 2-3. Thats fine. I was saying that if over time a frog prooves to be too difficult to be breed in the hobby then why bother. Some frogs cannot be adapted to captive rearing. As I said before, some frogs DO NOT belong in the hobby. Thank the stars for Dendroboard. Hopefully now we can learn from one another and do some good. But I digress. Saving habitiat is what is going to ultimately save these frogs, not difficult captive rearing. But that is another topic.

I hope I cleared things up, and I meant no disrespect of course.
Dave


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Dave,
I have a side bar that may merit some consideration on this comment 
snip "But my question to you is what is the benefit? A nice display is great, but its the long term consequenses that bother me. If a frog doesn't breed or has a 50:50 chance at making it, then should it be exported for display purposes? No way."

I would hate to see this become an absolutist point of view as the number of "difficult" species that can be readily kept and reproduced in captivity is always increasing. This is apparent if you look at captive care and reproduction overall, it wasn't too many years ago when animals such as lions and tigers were considered difficult to breed, now the problem is preventing them from breeding. The same pattern has been seen in many other genera and taxa, including frogs. It wasn't that many years ago when cb red eyes were not available, and you had to buy ten to get 5 to survive and cb auratus were a real big deal. Now, both of those species (which were once considered for experts only) are readily available as cb animals. 

A side thought, 

Ed 
Ed Kowalski
South Jersey


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Ed said:


> I would hate to see this become an absolutist point of view as the number of "difficult" species that can be readily kept and reproduced in captivity is always increasing.


Which leads to the question of who are the best people to attempt these "difficult" species so we can move them from the "experts only" list. I hate this subject because it smacks of elitism but I don't think bringing in difficult to breed species or morphs and throwing them out to the masses is a very responsible or effective way to get animals established in the hobby. It probably won't happen anytime soon but I'd like to see targeted importations that bring in small numbers of the difficult speces and put them into the hands of people most likely to succeed with them. So how do you find those people? I'm still not sure. The most experienced people with large collections come to mind first but those large collections take a lot of time and space which means those experts may not have the time, space, or other resources to adequately address the needs of species who's needs are poorly known and may not fit the formula the experts are use to working with. Then there are people with small collections and years of experience who may be able to concentrate on a couple of difficult species. These seem like a good choice but they may already be concentrating on what they can, and not have room for more without starting to face the same problems as the experts with large collections. And finally I don't think years of experience is the ultimate measure of an expert either. I've seen many people come into the hobby with backgrounds and personalities that make them predisposed to be successful froggers. Although rare, there are people that within 6 months to a year of being in the hobby have already clearly mastered what it takes to be successful with difficult species. Again, I don't think this is measured by the number of species kept or frogs produced, but more in how they approach the challenge of meeting the needs of the frogs. Tor Linbo often speaks in favor of a mentoring process similar to what you see in falconry. That's not a bad idea and with the Internet, the mentors and protoge don't have to be next door neighbors anymore either. I don't know what the answers are but it seems like there should be a way to bring difficult species into the hobby without having most of them die out because they didn't make it into the right hands.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

My comments will be after these. 

snip "but I don't think bringing in difficult to breed species or morphs and throwing them out to the masses is a very responsible or effective way to get animals established in the hobby."

Agreed. 

snip " It probably won't happen anytime soon but I'd like to see targeted importations that bring in small numbers of the difficult speces and put them into the hands of people most likely to succeed with them."

The problem with this is that there has to be enough interest for the importer to be induced to importing the animal. I do not think, the way the pet trade in general works in the USA is conducive to this idea. I have hopes that it may change in the future, but I do not see it changing yet. 


snip "So how do you find those people? I'm still not sure. The most experienced people with large collections come to mind first but those large collections take a lot of time and space which means those experts may not have the time, space, or other resources to adequately address the needs of species who's needs are poorly known and may not fit the formula the experts are use to working with."

I would include many institutions in this category. 

snip "Then there are people with small collections and years of experience who may be able to concentrate on a couple of difficult species. These seem like a good choice but they may already be concentrating on what they can, and not have room for more without starting to face the same problems as the experts with large collections. And finally I don't think years of experience is the ultimate measure of an expert either. I've seen many people come into the hobby with backgrounds and personalities that make them predisposed to be successful froggers. Although rare, there are people that within 6 months to a year of being in the hobby have already clearly mastered what it takes to be successful with difficult species. Again, I don't think this is measured by the number of species kept or frogs produced, but more in how they approach the challenge of meeting the needs of the frogs."


In general, if a person can concentrate on one or two species at a time, then the chances of getting the husbandry down pat are greatly increased. This is where the specialist hobbyist comes into play. I have also seen experts kill a lot of an animal because it didn't react the way they thought it would and could not change their mindset to compensate. 


snip "Tor Linbo often speaks in favor of a mentoring process similar to what you see in falconry. That's not a bad idea and with the Internet, the mentors and protoge don't have to be next door neighbors anymore either. I don't know what the answers are but it seems like there should be a way to bring difficult species into the hobby without having most of them die out because they didn't make it into the right hands."

One of the reasons I try to share the odd bits of info crammed into my head. The more info that is out there the better the chances of something working correctly. 
One of the problems with difficult species is that the importers/pet stores often do not know that they are difficult when they first appear. I can remember when a pet store I worked at was getting D. histrionicus for less than $15 wholesale and was selling them for $29.99 each or 2 for $40.00. I had set them up in a terraria with plants and hide areas and a couple of ff cultures and we sold all of the ones we could get. The information available at that time, made them as difficult to keep as most "sensitive" frogs, but we had a lower mortality rate on them, then we did for red eyes. 
(I can also remember selling E. boulangeri complex frogs for $12.99 or 2 for $19.99). 

Ed


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Wow*

I can remember when a pet store I worked at was getting D. histrionicus for less than $15 wholesale and was selling them for $29.99 each or 2 for $40.00. I had set them up in a terraria with plants and hide areas and a couple of ff cultures and we sold all of the ones we could get. The information available at that time, made them as difficult to keep as most "sensitive" frogs, but we had a lower mortality rate on them, then we did for red eyes. 
(I can also remember selling E. boulangeri complex frogs for $12.99 or 2 for $19.99). 

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 
Wow


Dave


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Hi Ed*

Hi Ed,

You said, "I would hate to see this become an absolutist point of view as the number of "difficult" species that can be readily kept and reproduced in captivity is always increasing. This is apparent if you look at captive care and reproduction overall, it wasn't too many years ago when animals such as lions and tigers were considered difficult to breed, now the problem is preventing them from breeding. The same pattern has been seen in many other genera and taxa, including frogs. It wasn't that many years ago when cb red eyes were not available, and you had to buy ten to get 5 to survive and cb auratus were a real big deal. Now, both of those species (which were once considered for experts only) are readily available as cb animals."

I agree with you. I made a post earlier regarding intent, and benefit. It think that zoo's have the right intent regarding long term care and proliferation of the species. That's one of the reasons why we have zoos. 

Dave


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I agree with you. I made a post earlier regarding intent, and benefit. It think that zoo's have the right intent regarding long term care and proliferation of the species. That's one of the reasons why we have zoos"

But the point most people do not know is that (particuarly with herps and fish) the major husbandry breakthroughs do not occur in the Zoos. The vast majority of them occur by the private hobbyist. 
The amount of time and money that a private individual is usually far far greater than a institution can afford to do or even permit. If the area assigned to the keeper has 250 animal in it, in multiple cages, there is only some much time available per each cage as opposed to a person who has a smaller collection at home. 

Ed


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