# Shows, conservation and what the hobby can do.



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

This thread is being started as a branch off of the recent forum poll (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...dback-poll-show-sales-table-vs-meeting-9.html)

Through discussion there... people began to discuss some of the serious issues with Conservation-minded "Amphibian Only" shows like Frog Day. 

Chuck brought up some great points to start the discussion... below are a couple quick quotes from that thread:



chuckpowell said:


> This years Frog Day wasn't that well attended and speaking to people who attended neither was Microcosm. Both had more advertising then ever before; lots of advertising. I don't think vendors or advertising were the problem.


So as a community... why don't we try to answer some of these questions?


chuckpowell said:


> How can we run the existing shows (in particular Frog Day and Microcosm) in the future so they are better attended both by vendors and people attending (The profits of both these shows funds conservation). I see over and over here on Dendroboard that people are in favor of conservation. Well then lets find a way to keep some wonderful shows going and support conservation. What more could you ask?





chuckpowell said:


> Do we want good shows to continue? And what makes a good show?


Please lets keep this discussion civil and constructive. Share your opinions about what would get YOU to support these events and their efforts.


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## ShaunO (Jul 21, 2013)

I was not in on the original conversation on this topic, but it did strike me as odd that both shows were in California within 2 months of each other. That could be a reason for decreased attendance for both shows, since they both draw from the same community. If the organizers can coordinate to have the shows in different parts of the country, or at least times of year, it would probably drive up attendance, as well at make it easier for vendors to attend both shows. It does not matter how much advertising you put into both since there is a limited demand.

Shaun


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

The amphibian hobby could take some lessons from the fish hobby when it comes to shows/ conventions. The american Killifish association would be a good comparison with the dart hobby. 
The main issue is that the hobby is extremely small and unorganized. There's no national association of anything. I'm not sure it can support shows like in the past with the internet/Facebook


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

I agree that the locations of these shows need to be rotated more effectively to create a stronger draw from local froggers. It's unlikely that too many people are going to fly cross country for an event like this, it's just too expensive.

Secondly, an effort needs to be made to tie the show into an opportunity that most of us wouldn't have otherwise. The show promoters need to partner with a local zoo or other institution in order to arrange some sort of behind the scenes tour.

My example would be to have a Frog Day or Microcosm event in Atlanta and arrange a behind-the-scenes day at the Atlanta Botanical Garden. I feel like many of us in the South East region would be more than willing to make the journey to Atlanta for something like that.

Just my two cents.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

NathanB said:


> The amphibian hobby could take some lessons from the fish hobby when it comes to shows/ conventions. The american Killifish association would be a good comparison with the dart hobby.
> The main issue is that the hobby is extremely small and unorganized. There's no national association of anything. I'm not sure it can support shows like in the past with the internet/Facebook


 Good points. Every year I have been in the cichlid hobby, the clubs and shows have gotten smaller and smaller in terms of attendance. There is no doubt that the internet is the reason for the majority of this dropping attendance.

A POLICY CHANGE HERE WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER TO THE SUCCESS OF FROG VENDORS AT COMMERCIAL SHOWS. NONE. ZIP. NADA. If you want to make the policy because it's "moral" or the "right thing to do", then go ahead, do it, because in practice it will accomplish nothing.

Changing gears...

Almost all cichlid shows are run by clubs, not businesses. You all might be interested to know that cichlid table sales are almost nonexistent for the American Cichlid Association's national convention. You can rent tanks to sell fish, but most sales happen at the Sunday auction or out of people's rooms. I have not once heard of anyone complaining about rooms sales impacting the auction, which raises money for the ACA. In fact, the hard core attendees enjoy going from room to room looking at fish and meeting new people (often with beverages). Each room becomes a small and dynamic social event in itself. It's a great time! Home | 2014 ACA Louisville Convention

So why can't froggers accomplish this sort of an event? Incompetence? Lack of leadership? History? Maybe a bit, but not really. It's because this hobby is painfully small. It's also because the internet's ability to provide information, pictures and connectivity to other froggers makes it harder to start this sort of a thing in 2014.

It's strange to me that even something like the National Amphibian Expo doesn't have anything beyond and auction and a vendor room. There is no real "show". Cartainly NABRC and Scott's Smith are not a hobbyist show in the sense that I know. Unless I'm missing something, (please forgive me if I'm wrong), all of these shows have little in terms of display and are completely devoid of speaker talks and workshops. See this schedule for a good example of what could be done, if perhaps our hobby was bigger: http://www.aca-convention.com/schedule But perhaps it's big enough, I'm not sure.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

With respect to the IADs, the auctions pretty much were poorly attended and a lot of things went for far less than they should have (people refused to buy azureus for example for $15.). This drove down the amount of funds available and made it much harder to book for the following years. 

Frogday has been rotating around the country in various venues over the last several years so you really can't compare Microcosm and Frogday both being in California. Also Microcosm isn't just an amphibian show, they try to get people from different hobbies to show up such as the killifish groups, terrarium enthusiasts and so forth. 

It is difficult to hook a show up to an institution like an AZA zoo or aquarium because of the rules around animal sales (although the last FrogDay in NY was able to use the Staten Island Zoo) so it's possible. 

Most of the shows don't have speakers partly because they aren't set up for them. Even at IAD some of the talks during the day were cancelled because no one showed up for it. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

People just don't care about biological conservation anymore. I don't know if there might be data anywhere, but I imagine that only a small percentage of people in the frog hobby have much of an understanding about conservation and the crowd here on dendroboard is probably not very representative. It is very different than it was just ten or twenty years ago. Science education in the US is just so poor and people don't take initiative and go out and look for information of this kind like they used to. I have seen that nowadays most of the membership in gardening clubs and other kinds of groups are motivated mainly just by the social opportunities. It might be asking a lot to expect people to get excited about a show or convention that is all about conservation.


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

Dev30ils said:


> My example would be to have a Frog Day or Microcosm event in Atlanta and arrange a behind-the-scenes day at the Atlanta Botanical Garden. I feel like many of us in the South East region would be more than willing to make the journey to Atlanta for something like that.


GREAT IDEA!!! Ok, I'm from Georgia so I'm a bit biased, but in all honesty my main reason for attending shows is solely based on location. I wish I could afford to fly cross-country to attend Microcosm or Frog Day, but there's just no way. I usually attend the local shows and even make a 5 hour drive down to Daytona every August, but that's about as far as I can go on my budget.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I don't know what goes into planning the venues for these shows, but perhaps some market research with some help from the various forums would help. I attended FrogDay at the Staten Island Zoo (since it's 30 minutes from me), and it seemed to be pretty well attended. I also know there seem to be a plethora of members here from the NJ/NY and surrounding areas. Using the forums to find the largest pools of members might help point them in the right direction.

The zoo was also a good idea. It allowed for a nice day out, rather than just a trip to another reptile show, since there are plenty of those around as well.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Ed said:


> With respect to the IADs, the auctions pretty much were poorly attended and a lot of things went for far less than they should have (people refused to buy azureus for example for $15.). This drove down the amount of funds available and made it much harder to book for the following years.
> 
> Frogday has been rotating around the country in various venues over the last several years so you really can't compare Microcosm and Frogday both being in California. Also Microcosm isn't just an amphibian show, they try to get people from different hobbies to show up such as the killifish groups, terrarium enthusiasts and so forth.
> 
> ...


Thats how most auctions work, If you bring something everyone has they sell for pennies on the dollar. I dont know why there were issues with getting bidders to attend?

The local fish club here puts on a catfish convention every two years to help fund the club. Theres no national association with this, just 1 (large) local club. They fly in speakers and ichthyologists from all over the world. All-Aquarium Catfish Convention 2014 

Fish conventions put most of the emphasis on entertainment, not vender sales. People come to have a good time, which brings in more people, and customers for the venders. 

There also seems to be less of a "community" in this hobby. I'm guessing its mostly due to the younger demographics.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Moving shows around so that people from those regions could attend would offer the opportunity for new folks to show up at each event. I for one would like to drive to an event like I do to the Daytona Show usually every year to look at the much larger assortment of leopard geckos and ball pythons.
I think if you want to spruce us the shows excitement and get things going for conservation, these shows would need to work hand in hand with the different frog breeding programs that are in place now. Say Tesoros said we are introducing both thumbnails and egg feeders at the next frog day or CRARC said we are auctioning Granny's at Microcosm or WIKIRI said the new Sylvaticus morph with be introduced and sold at the next IAD.....think that would pump up attendance and excitement? And if at these events 50% of conservation auctions went to the various programs and 50% went to the attending frog program, in which the attending frog program would supply a few choice groups of animals. I think the speculation of what is going to be there and the opportunity for everyone in the community to get access to the new animals would drive the buzz for the events for some time. Without something special and somewhat exclusive these events will continue to be hurt by the constant barrage of offerings here and on other frogs sites.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

*Re: Feedback Poll - Show Sales: Table vs. Meeting*

I think part of the problem is the ever increasing numbers of "reptile" shows. For example last year here in Ft. Myers there was one "major" reptile show put on by one of the well known companies. It was sparsely atteneded at best. This year they are putting on 3 in Ft. Myers. It's way way too much. The market can't handle it in this area. 

To address Chuck's point about Frog Day and Microcosm attendance, not everyone can afford to fly across the country to attend these great events. Perhaps what we need is regional Frog Days? If those were held in the Northwest, Southwest, Midwest, Southeast, etc. maybe we could get more people to attend.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I agree with much of what was written in the above posts. A few points...

Frogs are not reptiles. Frogs are not fish. The problem with alot of these reptile shows are that frogs are an afterthought. That's fine for NABRC for Scott's Smith's show. Those are VENDOR EVENTS. What we need are amphibian shows, somewhat like the National Amphibian Expo (NAE).

In regards to Ed's point. Yes, frogs will go for less at an auction than they do when sold out of a room. That's no different than it is for cichlids. Expect it. Also expect that a potion of those sales will also go back to the host club.

What the NAE is missing is the discussion. It talks about the discussion, but there is nothing that I can see on the website (maybe I missed it??) that facilitates the discussion. Where does the discussion take place? IS there a hospitality room? Is there a workshop? Is there an offsite event? Is there speaker talks? What most of you call shows are almost all vendor events, nothing more.

I agree with Mark. If I was king for a day, companies like Tesoros would ship frogs ahead of time to be sold at the event, That would build buzz. I would also ask them to put together a presentation and answer questions.

Lastly, location is so important. Everyone wants a show hosted in their region. That's fine, have a regional show. A national show needs to be a central location in which there is a very large airport that the majority of people can get reasonably priced airline tickets. Chicago, Denver or Houston come to mind.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

NathanB said:


> Thats how most auctions work, If you bring something everyone has they sell for pennies on the dollar. I dont know why there were issues with getting bidders to attend?





ecichlid said:


> In regards to Ed's point. Yes, frogs will go for less at an auction than they do when sold out of a room. That's no different than it is for cichlids. Expect it. Also expect that a potion of those sales will also go back to the host club.


It was expected for them to go for less than what they were selling out of a room. The average price in the sales floor was more than twice that for the same size/age frog. The problem was that no one bid on them and there were other rarer frogs that also went without any bids despite being 1/3 of of the price they were offered for sale on the floor. 
At one of the last IADs the number people I counted on the auction floor was less than 20 people total. 



ecichlid said:


> The local fish club here puts on a catfish convention every two years to help fund the club. Theres no national association with this, just 1 (large) local club. They fly in speakers and ichthyologists from all over the world. All-Aquarium Catfish Convention 2014


I'm not sure why people think that this wasn't done for other shows for example IAD over the years had Dr. Coloma (WIKIRI), Brian Kubicki (CRAC), Henk Wallys (From Germany), Marc Staniszewski and I'm sure I'm missing a few others from outside of the country. 

The reason there is a focus on the vendors is that at least at IAD, the foot traffic and the vendors were the main source of revenue despite attempting to push the entertainment value of the program and offering of a field trip. As soon as the foot traffic and the auction sales went down, there was less interest from the vendors and poof.. a lack of funds to bring in speakers from overseas... and this is despite some well known researchers or authors providing excellent speaking programs for example, Dr. Nickerson on hellbenders (author Hellbenders: North American "Giant Salamanders"), Dick Bartlett, Dr. Mendelson, ZooAtlanta, on little brown anurans of Central America) and so forth. There was a lot of emphasis on the entertainment portion of the show with discussions running most of the two days in addition to the keynote talks. 

A lot of what people are throwing out here are all things that have been tried or even discussed by those who are either trying to set up or are setting up shows in the past 

The problem really comes down to the fact that a show that is routinely held year after year in a specific region appears to lose attendance. It doesn't take a very large shift of revenue to start the cascade that leads to a show not working well anymore. There are a certain percentage of people who try to go and support the shows but these by themselves are generally insufficient to keep the show afloat. 
I suspect that if we go and look at the after show traffic on the forums, most of the information desired by people is what was for sale and if there were any good deals and not on the entertainment value of the show or the talks. 

After all of the years of experience with IAD, and to a much lesser extent NAAC, the hobby overall despite a lot of discussion doesn't appear focused on the conservation aspect of the shows or even the entertainment value of the shows. At the older IADs it wasn't uncommon after the talks or keynote to have people sitting up all night chatting and discussing the various things (including a number of keynotes and other speaker participating) until very late one night (one group until 5 am!)). The number of people who engaged in this also declined over time. 

Part of the problem is that putting on a good show is a lot of work, and too often there isn't enough interest in organizing the show over the years from the people who did it the year before... the person who organized the very first IAD, burned out the first year and never wanted to do it again...and the lack of interest in helping puts a lot of nails into the coffin of a show. There are often a lot of people who claim they want to help but rarely does anyone step up to the plate much less want to continue it year after year. 

So to some extent, I'm skeptical that the hobby is really going to do anything more than talk. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Why not try to merge frog day with larger reptile shows?

I've been to the NY reptile expo once, and it was PACKED.

I understand that the goals of both events aren't quite the same, but you'd get a much higher exposure this way, with people that most likely are part of your target audience.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

ecichlid said:


> Good points. Every year I have been in the cichlid hobby, the clubs and shows have gotten smaller and smaller in terms of attendance. There is no doubt that the internet is the reason for the majority of this dropping attendance.
> 
> A POLICY CHANGE HERE WILL MAKE NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER TO THE SUCCESS OF FROG VENDORS AT COMMERCIAL SHOWS. NONE. ZIP. NADA. If you want to make the policy because it's "moral" or the "right thing to do", then go ahead, do it, because in practice it will accomplish nothing.
> 
> ...


I had a lengthy conversation with Chris Miller at Frog Day 2012 about making the event bigger, more like what we used to do for the GCCA's Cichlid Classic. A two day event with speakers, a display room for manufactures like Zoo Med, Exo Terra, Mist King, etc. A room for frog vendors, and perhaps a banquet one night. Make it a "must attend" event for every frogger possible by offering access to experts and information and frogs and supplies not normally available over the internet. How about having a "frog show" with awards given out for the best Dendrobates and the best Ranitomeya?


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Ed said:


> So to some extent, I'm skeptical that the hobby is really going to do anything more than talk.


 With all of your encouragement? What would make you think that? 



hypostatic said:


> Why not try to merge frog day with larger reptile shows?
> 
> I've been to the NY reptile expo once, and it was PACKED.


 Packed with what? Reptile hobbyists. When I want to talk about and see geckos, I will go to a reptile show. Exposure is one thing, interest is another. We have more in common with orchid keepers than ball python keepers.



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I had a lengthy conversation with Chris Miller at Frog Day 2012...


 I think you can add Chris to the list of people who are burnt out on running a show. I have assembled a list of 20 froggers in the Chicagoland area (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/midwest/185673-chicagoland-froggers-directory.html) and a list of their frogs that is easily editable online by all participants. I can't even get Chris to respond by putting up his list. He seems like a really sharp guy. But my guess is he would rather sit on the sidelines. As for you "Rusty", you work too much to get anything done with a national club. Maybe you and Chris can sit around and talk and then you spout out the very good ideas on the forum, but Like Ed said:


Ed said:


> So to some extent, I'm skeptical that the hobby is really going to do anything more than talk.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

ecichlid said:


> I think you can add Chris to the list of people who are burnt out on running a show. I have assembled a list of 20 froggers in the Chicagoland area (Chicagoland Froggers - directory) and a list of their frogs that is easily editable online by all participants. I can't even get Chris to respond by putting up his list. He seems like a really sharp guy. But my guess is he would rather sit on the sidelines. As for you "Rusty", you work too much to get anything done with a national club. Maybe you and Chris can sit around and talk and then you spout out the very good ideas on the forum, but Like Ed said:


 Is this enough to get either of you guys riled up and out of your chairs?


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I think there should be 2 separate threads to keep focus. 1 on just the overall health of shows and how to structure them. And the other on the specific issue of fund raising for conservation at shows. Because you have to ask yourself what value or why does a show need fund raising for conservation? What's wrong with people donating online? What value does the show bring to fund raising? It is valuable when trying to break down any business problem to actually ask yourself the most important question, does this need to exist at all? And the same question applies to the shows themselves. Maybe we first we need to establish if the current reality of the internet, ecommerce and consumers means that shows are just a thing of the past. 


For me personally the value of a show is being able to see the product in person. We have seen plenty of pictures of frogs and when a person received those frogs and took their own pictures they did not look nearly as impressive. I pick frogs I want at shows and I get ideas for what morphs look like in real life for future buys. Some things a camera just can't capture and other things were never there to be captured in the first place. 

The other value a show brings is the possibility that I can select a single frog from multiple vendors so I am not inbreeding without increasing the cost by $50 / frog for shipping. So its a financial motive buying a group of 4 frogs would be $200 in shipping and that money is enough to cover my gas to a show that is a state away. So this one is actually an area of failure for shows because the first big shot at frog purchasing I did I couldn't actually find more than 1 vendor with the same morph of frogs I wanted. 

I would like to think that shows offer me the chance to get frogs that are rare or harder to obtain but that has not been my experience. Seems they never make it to the show before they are already pre paid for or shipped.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> Packed with what? Reptile hobbyists. When I want to talk about and see geckos, I will go to a reptile show. Exposure is one thing, interest is another. We have more in common with orchid keepers than ball python keepers.


You are correct in some regard. I prefer to think that they are herpetology hobbyists 

I kept leopard geckos before getting into frogs, and I'm sure many others have also started with some other reptile.

Exposure and interest are different things, but it's hard to build interest without exposure. The amount of people that know you can even keep poison dart frogs is pretty low. Add that to the fact that it's relatively hard to get your hands on dart frogs, and I end up believing that one of the reasons interest is so low is because exposure is almost nonexistent.

If you want to buy a gecko, a python, or an orchid, without searching around, you can wait a few months for the next show to show up near you. Frog Day only shows up around these parts about once every 2 years.

Also, I do believe that I've seen black jungle and Andy's vending orchids at the NY reptile expo....


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> What the NAE is missing is the discussion. It talks about the discussion, but there is nothing that I can see on the website (maybe I missed it??) that facilitates the discussion. Where does the discussion take place? IS there a hospitality room? Is there a workshop? Is there an offsite event? Is there speaker talks? What most of you call shows are almost all vendor events, nothing more.


Originally they advertised looking for speakers and part of the vendor packet ask if you were willing to talk and subject. I offered to do a similar talk to what I did at Frog Day 2012 (Introduction to dart frog keeping with simple terrarium design) which was well attended. 



hypostatic said:


> Why not try to merge frog day with larger reptile shows?


This was done with the Midwest Herpetological Symposium with NARBC Chicago (the largest of the NARBC) when it was hosted by the Chicago Herpetological Society. It only slightly increased attendance and they contributed it to an increase of their membership attending the Symposium. 



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I had a lengthy conversation with Chris Miller at Frog Day 2012 about making the event bigger, more like what we used to do for the GCCA's Cichlid Classic. A two day event with speakers, a display room for manufactures like Zoo Med, Exo Terra, Mist King, etc. A room for frog vendors, and perhaps a banquet one night. Make it a "must attend" event for every frogger possible by offering access to experts and information and frogs and supplies not normally available over the internet. How about having a "frog show" with awards given out for the best Dendrobates and the best Ranitomeya?


I spent 2 years on a committee organizing the 2012 Midwest Herpetological Symposium. With everything you just said. The show sucked due to a board/committee issues and in fighting so I won't compare that part. This event once was larger 300+ plus people, it is now down to an average of 120-130 people. These type events are struggling to continue. 

I am surprised you all are speaking so highly of the fish events. The last one I attended to help a friend a packing lot seller got crap beat out of him by a vendor. No joke. One did not happen this year due to lack of tables sold. They scrapped speakers, had to eat the deposit on hotel, ect. It was an IL frag and fish event. I help a friend so not sure on the name. I am sure one of the fish guys can help me.


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

I have been hanging back and waiting in the wings here for awhile to see how this thread progressed but I feel I can hopefully clear things up and perhaps ease the worries about just another vendor show regarding National Amphibian Expo (NAE)

1.) We at the National Amphibian Expo LLC recognize that we are the new kids on the block and as such may not be able to offer as much as people might like for an amphibian only event but one thing we can offer is that we are the only show in 2014 that is centrally located as we are in the heart of the midwest. Additionally there has not been event of this type in the midwest since the Chicago Frog Day in 2012.

2.) It has been brought up that we are not offering talks/discussions and that we are only a vendor show and sale. As Ed has brought up for shows of our kind to survive and offer all that we can to the attendees we do in fact need to focus a lot of our attention to the vendor portion of the event.

Current Vendors:

- Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc.
- FlyMeat.com
- Josh's Frogs
- Rainforest Junkys.com
- Tropiflora.com (First time out of Florida to do an event)
- GlassBoxTropicals.com
- PoisonFrogs.net
- A-List Animals 
- Coco Hut Dart Frogs
- Jewels of Eden
- Buckeye Dart Frogs
- Tundra Cages 
- Weird & Wonderful Morphs
- Brian Rawlings Dart Frogs

BUT...

We have several opportunities for our attendees to partake in discussion and listen to our lineup on talks

NAE TALK LINEUP:
Some talks that were offered were overlooked as we have limited time to fit them in and that we really wanted to offer as much time as possible to our attendees on the floor with vendors as this is our first event. Much less with 4 forums on Poison Dart Frogs out there one doesn't have to go to far to get information on this rather large PDF hobby.

11:00am – 12:00pm “Mantella: Into the Leaf Litter” - Noah Shields -- Followed by open forum on the state of the Mantella hobby and sustainable growth for the future--
1:00pm – 1:30pm “Beyond The Fruit Fly” – Corey Wickliffe
1:30pm – 2:00pm "Captive Husbandry of Bumble Bee Toads" – Zack Brinks
2:00pm - 2:30pm "Supporting your Interest: Amphibian Conservation and You." – TBD


We are also offering a Friday Night Happy Hour

Come and enjoy a cold brew, play pool, and talk amphibians with vendors and fellow enthusiast the night before the National Amphibian Expo. Need something to eat, enjoy ½ price Appetizers from 8pm-10pm. 

Where: Whispers Lounge, located inside the main lobby, Embassy Suites Indianapolis North

This event is proudly sponsored by the following groups:
Indiana Dendrobatid Society (IDS)
International Mantella Society (IMS)

3.) Now to the big one, Conservation...I am sure many realize but most do not that with out sustained support of local amphibian conservation efforts this hobby will likely not survive to see another 10 years...Let me explain.

Several examples of projects that the US government is focusing great resources on are the following: (Crawfish Frog Recovery, North American Amphibian Monitoring Program (NAAMP), Frogwatch USA, Chopsticks for Salamanders, Mississippi Gopher Frog Recovery, Wyoming Toads Recovery, Texas Blind Cave Salamander Recovery, and Houston Toads Recovery)

IF the above mentioned projects begin to see population declines due to outside factors (ie. Chytrid Fungus, Rana Virus, Illegal collecting for hobby/exportation) the US government is likely to begin as it already has (Lacey Act limiting interstate travel of some species, and USFWS being able to ban species without due process, large python ban) a crack down on hobbies it sees as sources of the outside factors. But with great levels of support from all and managed responsible keeping the hobby has a chance to persist.

Global conservation supported by the hobby on the other hand has really begun to limit itself to a few projects that directly benefit the hobby, Amphibian Ark focuses on projects of great need that supports the hobby but also and more importantly have great affect on the greater good of amphibian populations in the regions we have come to love. For a complete list of Amphibian Ark Project: Programs Needing Support

I really hope you have had some of your questions answered but please do not hesitate to ask additional questions regarding the National Amphibian Expo. We understand our place in the hobby and wish only to provide a place to meet and grow the hobby, perhaps even open your eyes to conservation programs you have yet to hear about.

Take Care and All the Best,


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Expos are great for local shows, but its hard to justify spending several hundred dollars in travel/lodging mainly to see vendors.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

NathanB said:


> Expos are great for local shows, but its hard to justify spending several hundred dollars in travel/lodging mainly to see vendors.


So what would allow you to justify that expense and book a plane ticket or hotel room for the next big show?


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

There would have to be something I couldn't get elsewhere. And it would have to be worth the money. The fish hobby has found a way to make money off of attendies, sponsors and vendor's only cover some/most of the expenses. I don't know if the amphibian hobby could support it? 
See this again All-Aquarium Catfish Convention 2014 this is a well run convention, put on by volunteers to support a fish club. About half the people there are local members, the others are their for a vacation.
There are world class speakers, these have literally written the book(s) on catfish. And are great presenters. There are field trips, wine tasting, & collecting so far. I think others might be in the works. 
This blows away any expo I've been too. All-Aquarium Catfish Convention 2014 imagine a ton of people talking, buying, BSing and drinking all night long.
And then there is a all day auction on Sunday. People can cover their cost's and have a free vacation if they want.
If you want people to travel, it has to be a vacation right? 

Is the hobby large or organized enough to pull something like this off, I'm not sure myself.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

widmad27 said:


> We have several opportunities for our attendees to partake in discussion and listen to our lineup on talks
> 
> 11:00am – 12:00pm “Mantella: Into the Leaf Litter” - Noah Shields -- Followed by open forum on the state of the Mantella hobby and sustainable growth for the future--
> 1:00pm – 1:30pm “Beyond The Fruit Fly” – Corey Wickliffe
> ...


Great! But this is NOWHERE on the website. Am I missing it or did you guys miss a golden opportunity? Home | NAE 

Next NAE, perhaps a talk on a Dendrobates topic?? Tesoros (with frogs for auction sent ahead of time) would be great. Or how about Zack talking about Tincs? Or Jarred talking about Thumbs? Or Shawn talking about his frog room?



widmad27 said:


> We are also offering a Friday Night Happy Hour
> 
> Come and enjoy a cold brew, play pool, and talk amphibians with vendors and fellow enthusiast the night before the National Amphibian Expo. Need something to eat, enjoy ½ price Appetizers from 8pm-10pm.
> 
> Where: Whispers Lounge, located inside the main lobby, Embassy Suites Indianapolis North


Again, where is this on the website?? Home | NAE

If you guys would be generous enough with your time to do this again in two years, I'm happy to help, especially if it's in Chicago. A place where just about everyone can get a direct flight for a reasonable price. Chicago also offers some great excursions. There are frogs here! Amazon Rising | Shedd Aquarium


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

dravenxavier said:


> I don't know what goes into planning the venues for these shows, but perhaps some market research with some help from the various forums would help. I attended FrogDay at the Staten Island Zoo (since it's 30 minutes from me), and it seemed to be pretty well attended. I also know there seem to be a plethora of members here from the NJ/NY and surrounding areas. Using the forums to find the largest pools of members might help point them in the right direction.
> 
> The zoo was also a good idea. It allowed for a nice day out, rather than just a trip to another reptile show, since there are plenty of those around as well.


I vended at this show and although it was well attended, a good number of people were zoo goers and not frog hobbiests,and had no intention to buy any frogs.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

hypostatic said:


> You are correct in some regard. I prefer to think that they are herpetology hobbyists
> 
> I kept leopard geckos before getting into frogs, and I'm sure many others have also started with some other reptile.
> 
> ...



I'm with ecichlid on this.These are frog shows to raise awareness and funds for frog conservation and should in my opinion stay that way.When you start mixing in reptiles it's not a special show anymore.It's just another everyday show and what do you do with the money raised.Do you have to split it with reptile conservation as well?If so, it's another good reason to keep it as an amphibian show only.


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

ecichlid said:


> Great! But this is NOWHERE on the website. Am I missing it or did you guys miss a golden opportunity? Home | NAE
> 
> Next NAE, perhaps a talk on a Dendrobates topic?? Tesoros (with frogs for auction sent ahead of time) would be great. Or how about Zack talking about Tincs? Or Jarred talking about Thumbs? Or Shawn talking about his frog room?
> 
> ...


I appreciate the input but unfortunately I also work full time (often overtime) in the zoo profession and simply haven't had the time as of late to add it...on my list for sure but my job comes before my hobby. All topics should be on the website hopefully by the end of the week.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I won't beat you up about this Dan. I think your efforts should be commended. Thank you for what you are doing! What I write below is not directed at you or NAE.

This community and this hobby, in my opinion, has an overemphasis on vendor participation and their profitability as a measurement of a show's success. It's the focus. Too bad the focus is not on the frogs.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

You do have to take into consideration that without the vendors success there would be no show at all,and what does that do for the frogs? It's got to go both ways for it to work if you think about it. When I vended the Staten Island Frogday, Between my donations,purchases from other vendors and a nice size Knot that I spent on the auction I went home with less money than I went there with,which was fine,because I knew that buying from other vendors and the auction(and I wanted the frogs),and my donations,that it was going to a good cause which I strongly believe in.It's all about amphibian conservation,but if none of the vendors made any money the show wouldn't exist and the frogs would not have that revenue coming in to help.Unfortunately it has to be that way for the shows to make sense.You have to have a show to focus on the frogs.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

oddlot said:


> You do have to take into consideration that without the vendors success there would be no show at all.


So don't do a show, do a conference/convention. The catfish con is $175 in addition to the cost of the room.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

NathanB said:


> Is the hobby large or organized enough to pull something like this off, I'm not sure myself.


It has in the past and I think it can in the future. I think Frog Day is that event, it just did not help that Micro and FD were so close. 



oddlot said:


> You do have to take into consideration that without the vendors success there would be no show at all,and what does that do for the frogs? It's got to go both ways for it to work if you think about it.


Look at Chicago Herpetological Reptile Fest and I have help put a similar event downstate the Central Illinois Herpetological Society Reptile and Amphibian Fair. Both non-sale events of displays and education on the keeping of reptile and amphibians. It pulls in new folks but it is hard to get the big hobbyist and knowledgeable people to attend and display. Add a sale and people come from all groups of the community. 



oddlot said:


> When I vended the Staten Island Frogday, Between my donations,purchases from other vendors and a nice size Knot that I spent on the auction I went home with less money than I went there with,which was fine,because I knew that buying from other vendors and the auction(and I wanted the frogs),and my donations,that it was going to a good cause which I strongly believe in.It's all about amphibian conservation,but if none of the vendors made any money the show wouldn't exist and the frogs would not have that revenue coming in to help.Unfortunately it has to be that way for the shows to make sense.You have to have a show to focus on the frogs.


Most vendors know going into frog only events they will be lucky to break even. Frog Day 2012 I sold my book and no frogs on my table. I gave some away and found a few a good home when I wanted them gone for space. It is about connecting with people.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

JJuchems said:


> Most vendors know going into frog only events they will be lucky to break even. Frog Day 2012 I sold my book and no frogs on my table. I gave some away and found a few a good home when I wanted them gone for space. It is about connecting with people.


I agree and expected to spend whatever I made plus the extra cash I brought with the sole intention of spending it for the sake of the frogs, plus I picked up some really nice animals.If I had more cash I would have spent it,but I guess that's why the wife helped vend (to keep my wallet in check,somewhat  ),plus she really enjoys them too.I probably picked up some things that I wouldn't have but she liked them so it was all good.It's also nice to put names to faces and where else can you talk frog all day without people giving you strange looks? Not that, that stops me !


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

oddlot said:


> I vended at this show and although it was well attended, a good number of people were zoo goers and not frog hobbyists,and had no intention to buy any frogs.





oddlot said:


> I'm with ecichlid on this.These are frog shows to raise awareness and funds for frog conservation and should in my opinion stay that way.When you start mixing in reptiles it's not a special show anymore.It's just another everyday show and what do you do with the money raised.Do you have to split it with reptile conservation as well?If so, it's another good reason to keep it as an amphibian show only.


The reason I mentioned reptile shows/expos is so that it would bring attraction from potential frog hobbyists. I feel like they are a good target audience. Just like the show at the staten island zoo, a good number of the people who would be exposed to it are people that might be interested, but would otherwise not have learned about it.

If the staten island zoo show was a success, and we want to keep it an amphibian-only show, why not try some zoos that attract a larger audience, like the bronx, or san diego?


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

It amazes me how little is know about Frog Day by the frog hobby here on Dendroboard. First moving the show around - over the past five years its been been in New York twice, Chicago, Phoenix, and California, I believe. How much does it need to move around? Also people have to remember someone has to do the work to host a show and they are going to have the show near them - its the area they know and making arrangements otherwise would be a huge choir that most people don't have the time for. If we want the show in other cities someone has to step up and volunteer to do the work - any takers? Second, these shows do partner with other institutions and except for the last frog day there has always been opportunities to do other things - look back at discussions of the events and you'll find that other trips were available at many of them and there have always been at least two or three speakers at each Frog Day. Third, well we're back to the first point, who's willing to host. 

And these responses aren't dealing with the problem - what makes a good show and how can we attract people. Sure if the show's in your area you'll go, but how can we attract you if its not in your area? Or am I just dreaming. We have to deal with what our hobby is, not what someone wants it to be. And if we want shows then things have to change. 

Best,

Chuck


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

All good points Chuck and I whole heartedly agree. Matt has done an awesome job putting on the last couple of Frogday shows in NY and you can see how frazzled he was by the amount of work he put into it.If he does it again,I'll see what kind of campaigning and advertising I can do to help.It really is a lot of work for one person to put on their shoulders.

On your other thought about bringing other people to a show out of the area,I was thinking about this even last time too. What about making a bus trip out of it also.This way you can get a bunch of people from 1 area to go without having to worry about the frogs on a plane,plus some people either don't like flying or can't afford the tickets,but if a large enough group of people went in on one then it wouldn't cost as much and think about the frog talk you could have both ways. Maybe even have some people doing talks on the busses. This can be done from several major cities and could bring in more volume of people.Just something I was mulling over for a while.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

My hunch is that Frog Day is dead in the midwest at it will be the NAE that will be the future of the hobby.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

My hunch is that being considerate and constructove is dead in the Midwest


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

chuckpowell said:


> It amazes me how little is know about Frog Day by the frog hobby here on Dendroboard.


Seems like you are answering your own question here, it seems there is a lack of exposure and communication. 

Still yet no one has answered my simple question what is the point? What is the value? What are you trying to accomplish that cannot otherwise be accomplished perfectly fine online or through some other avenue more efficiently?


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Pubfiction said:


> Still yet no one has answered my simple question what is the point? What is the value? What are you trying to accomplish that cannot otherwise be accomplished perfectly fine online or through some other avenue more efficiently?


 Rudy, why did you go to the Chicagoland Frogger Social, twice? Do you really not see the value to a meeting outside of the digital or do you really just want to understand what value others see?


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

srrrio said:


> My hunch is that being considerate and constructove is dead in the Midwest


 I'm sorry you feel my comment is not considerate or constructive. Did my statement anger you?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

chuckpowell said:


> It amazes me how little is know about Frog Day by the frog hobby here on Dendroboard. First moving the show around - over the past five years its been been in New York twice, Chicago, Phoenix, and California, I believe. How much does it need to move around


Chuck the issue here on DB is the cycle of the hobby. You have a lot of new people and many longer time keepers leaving online, almost going to the old days. I message/email froggers more these days than take to the forum and I know others doing the same. Plus there is the added Facebook pages that has dulled forum traffic. 

The movement has been good in my opinion. It caters to regions and still provides for folks to travel. I don't see it being dead in the Midwest. 



Pubfiction said:


> Still yet no one has answered my simple question what is the point? What is the value? What are you trying to accomplish that cannot otherwise be accomplished perfectly fine online or through some other avenue more efficiently?


What is the point? 


JJuchems said:


> It is about connecting with people.


What is the value? 


oddlot said:


> ...These are frog shows to raise awareness and funds for frog conservation and should in my opinion stay that way...



There is significant value in talking and meeting with people face to face. There are people in this hobby I would like to meet face to face and have a beverage. These events use profits and auctions to raise money for conservation projects to support amphibians in the wild.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

ecichlid said:


> Rudy, why did you go to the Chicagoland Frogger Social, twice? Do you really not see the value to a meeting outside of the digital or do you really just want to understand what value others see?



I know what the value for me is, I have stated part of it above. And see almost no talk of it from people vending and running shows. So I am challenging people to dig deep in themselves and see what they really think its about. After they do that they can start pulling apart the details and determine if others see that value and how many others do at what level. After we get past that maybe some people will start to see things differently or maybe they will just have a clearer understanding of what they knew before. Then you can actually start considering alternative business models and finally tweaking on the more basic business fundamentals can go ahead. But there is little point in the later issues if we are discussing something that isn't even a relevant issue. Most of these towns have a pet store what do they need a show/convention/etc... for?




JJuchems said:


> Chuck the issue here on DB is the cycle of the hobby. You have a lot of new people and many longer time keepers leaving online, almost going to the old days. I message/email froggers more these days than take to the forum and I know others doing the same. Plus there is the added Facebook pages that has dulled forum traffic.
> 
> The movement has been good in my opinion. It caters to regions and still provides for folks to travel. I don't see it being dead in the Midwest.
> 
> ...


Are you saying the value is connecting with people? If so why can't these connections happen online through a forum? How much time and money do you think people are willing to invest in these connections? Basically what value is meeting a person face to face worth and how often are you willing to do it? I like meeting people and talking with them no doubt, but I won't dump $500 and a whole weekend into flying to California to do this. 

If its really about connecting with people then why did we have to close a multi page argument over people leeching on shows to make trades? Are these people not part of the connections are we excluding them as not worth connecting with? Would it not be better to connect with more people rather than less?


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Pubfiction said:


> I know what the value for me is, I have stated part of it above. And see almost no talk of it from people vending and running shows. So I am challenging people to dig deep in themselves and see what they really think its about. After they do that they can start pulling apart the details and determine if others see that value and how many others do at what level. After we get past that maybe some people will start to see things differently or maybe they will just have a clearer understanding of what they knew before. Then you can actually start considering alternative business models and finally tweaking on the more basic business fundamentals can go ahead. But there is little point in the later issues if we are discussing something that isn't even a relevant issue. Most of these towns have a pet store what do they need a show/convention/etc... for?
> 
> Are you saying the value is connecting with people? If so why can't these connections happen online through a forum? How much time and money do you think people are willing to invest in these connections? Basically what value is meeting a person face to face worth and how often are you willing to do it? I like meeting people and talking with them no doubt, but I won't dump $500 and a whole weekend into flying to California to do this.
> 
> If its really about connecting with people then why did we have to close a multi page argument over people leeching on shows to make trades? Are these people not part of the connections are we excluding them as not worth connecting with? Would it not be better to connect with more people rather than less?


 You have some good points, good suggestions and great questions. I just think a forum format is a poor medium to move anything like this forward. This would be much better served in room with a white board. You may want to consider leading this thru the NAE.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

True a white board might be a better format. 

However doing it locally at something like NAE the input may be very skewed, we would only hear from people who did make it to a show and probably those that paid to get in and it would probably be largely Midwest dominated, we don't want to leave the others out with only second hand word of mouth of what was discussed. You could also imagine it feeling a little dishonest in feed back going to a show with a certain business model and expecting those people to take a hard look at the model and possibly invalidate it. 

Also I will be at a conference during NAE so I won't be attending.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Part of the value is making connections and many of the connects you make in person you won't make here. I have friends that I meet at the Atlanta Frog Day 10 years ago that I would never has thought to associate with on-line - weird people. But meeting them and getting to know them in person I found I really like them and one in particular is now a close friend that was well worth the expense of flying to Atlanta (which I didn't pay for), renting a room, car, etc. Over the years that friendship has paid off many time. Its your choice but for me the people are more important than the animals and are worth the cost.

Frog events are not totally about the connections - nothing we do is and to phrase it that is being ... I don't know I don't want to start problems. At the last Frog Day the selling event was only a little part of the event. I opened my house to anyone who wanted to come by the day before and had a BBQ. I've done this with nearly every FD I've been a part of (not the first where we went out for pizza). Others who have run FD have done likewise. We may not have been able to arrange special tours this time, because of personal problems both Jeremy and I had to deal with, but by there is plenty of stuff to do nearby - people to visit, the redwood, the Monterey Aquarium, the California Academy of Sciences, numerous art museums and much more. These events are limited more by what you want to do than what's available to do. 

Why don't we act as a community and see if we can and should save Frog Day and Microcosm. Stop complain about what's past and start trying to figure out how to do it better next year. There is a next year scheduled for both events. How about helping to make those better and I'm not talking to Pubfiction; I'm speaking to everyone. 

Best,

Chuck



Pubfiction said:


> Are you saying the value is connecting with people? If so why can't these connections happen online through a forum? How much time and money do you think people are willing to invest in these connections? Basically what value is meeting a person face to face worth and how often are you willing to do it? I like meeting people and talking with them no doubt, but I won't dump $500 and a whole weekend into flying to California to do this.
> 
> If its really about connecting with people then why did we have to close a multi page argument over people leeching on shows to make trades? Are these people not part of the connections are we excluding them as not worth connecting with? Would it not be better to connect with more people rather than less?


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Where are next years microcosm and frogday?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

chuckpowell said:


> Why don't we act as a community and see if we can and should save Frog Day and Microcosm. Stop complain about what's past and start trying to figure out how to do it better next year. There is a next year scheduled for both events. How about helping to make those better and I'm not talking to Pubfiction; I'm speaking to everyone.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


I am not sure the hobby can support two events designed to draw a national audience. I know in the day we had Frog Day, IAD, NWFF, MWFF, and I am sure I am missing a few. The hobby has changed in availability to purchase frogs and the ability to connect as the days of newsletters are gone, to email (frognet), to the days of online forums. Regional events survive as they are weekend trips and theses day and supported by regional meets. If I am traveling a distance I want a few days to enjoy the area and can really only attend one. 

We are smaller hobby than the rest of herpetoculture. So we need to see what the other facets are doing and the best example can be found in Turtle Survival Alliance. I believe they are the pinnacle in organizations that bringing together conservation, hobbyist, institutions, and academia. When I support conservation, this is who I donate too along with a local group. Look at what they are doing with 12th Annual Symposium on the Conservation and Biology of Tortoises and Freshwater Turtles. It travels around the country, held in the summer to accommodate travelers, field trips, ect. TSA has the added benefit that it has had zoological institutions support from the beginning, but they have created a model. It is now picked up and started Amphibian Survival Alliance which is the amphibian group I support.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

San Diego and I believe Phoenix. I'm not positive about Phoenix. I have no part in running either. I was a part of running Frog Day for the past 20 years but due to some serious health problems I've had to step off. In all honesty I've been stepping back for the past 10 years but now its totally in other hands and I think very good hands. 

One thing that I keep hearing is that these are national shows. Why are they national shows? They certainly don't draw people national and haven't for years. They can be regional shows and still be great shows. Microcosm does so much more than just frogs and so did (does) Frog Day, but that is its emphasis. 

These shows are still wonderful events and I think if people came they would enjoy it enough to come again, but somehow we're not selling the shows as something someone wants to travel to - at least any distance more than a couple hours away for most people. I can't figure out why. Seeing and picking out animals in person is great, meeting and talking with the breeder, and others is a joy. You might even meet the person who started the American Dendrobatid Group or Frog Day. I seen him at both. Maybe its just that I'm old fashion - I don't understanding why everyone doesn't want to attend everyone of these show that they could possibly get to. 

Best,

Chuck



scoy said:


> Where are next years microcosm and frogday?


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I would consider both next years shows to be west coast oriented. I doubt youll get many people from east of the mississippi river to travel that far. Most peoples spouses dont care for there hobby let alone are willing to let them spend close to a thousand dollars in travel lodgeing and fun to just spend. Maybe spaceing these two event between coasts so people can travel affordably to the events would help. I think Lou had a great idea with bus trips, but good luck finding that many people to travel across country. Shit, if i had money to blow i dont think this would be an issue. But i doubt im the only one in this mind set. Most peoplecant even spend $50 to get a frog shipped, or are just to cheap to.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I like what I'm reading here. 



JJuchems said:


> ...You have a lot of new people and many longer time keepers leaving online, almost going to the old days. I message/email froggers more these days than take to the forum and I know others doing the same. Plus there is the added Facebook pages that has dulled forum traffic.


 Jason, in the center of your own subjective universe, you may see more froggers "eaving online, but I have not seen any evidence of this or for any hobby for that matter. People are more connected to the internet and connected more often and there is plenty of statistics online to support my statement. If you would say there is less forum participation, then you certainly may be correct.



Pubfiction said:


> True a white board might be a better format.
> 
> However doing it locally at something like NAE the input may be very skewed..


 Just a miscommunication between us here. I mean that the NAE could be a great vehicle for future improvements. They seem to really be on the right track. 



chuckpowell said:


> Why don't we act as a community and see if we can and should save Frog Day and Microcosm. Stop complain about what's past and start trying to figure out how to do it better next year. There is a next year scheduled for both events. How about helping to make those better and I'm not talking to Pubfiction; I'm speaking to everyone.


 I don't think we are just complaining here Chuck, it's just a conversation on how things could improve. We're all with you. We want to see what you want to see. 



JJuchems said:


> I am not sure the hobby can support two events designed to draw a national audience. I know in the day we had Frog Day, IAD, NWFF, MWFF, and I am sure I am missing a few.


 Perhaps people should avoid "shows" like NABRC? Save your money for a real show?



JJuchems said:


> The hobby has changed in availability to purchase frogs and the ability to connect as the days of newsletters are gone, to email (frognet), to the days of online forums. Regional events survive as they are weekend trips and theses day and supported by regional meets. If I am traveling a distance I want a few days to enjoy the area and can really only attend one.


 Is a part of what you are saying is harder to find frogs you want to purchase?


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## DendroKurt (Mar 19, 2013)

Why not have a "frog day" at a vacation destination? If anyone is like me and have a family, you don't want to use vacation time to go somewhere your family doesn't care to go. Orlando is a perfect place. Froggers with families can take their family to Disney World, universal studios and sea world. Then take a day or two to enjoy Frog Day. Global pet expo is the largest pet industry show in the US because shop owners can go to the show without feeling guilty because they can take their families down for them to enjoy sunny florida and their theme parks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

chuckpowell said:


> One thing that I keep hearing is that these are national shows. Why are they national shows? They certainly don't draw people national and haven't for years. They can be regional shows and still be great shows. Microcosm does so much more than just frogs and so did (does) Frog Day, but that is its emphasis.


Sorry, on that. I thought that was more the emphasis on Frog Day. Since it travels and is one of the main events of the hobby, I felt like that was the role it has taken on. 



chuckpowell said:


> These shows are still wonderful events and I think if people came they would enjoy it enough to come again, but somehow we're not selling the shows as something someone wants to travel to - at least any distance more than a couple hours away for most people. I can't figure out why. Seeing and picking out animals in person is great, meeting and talking with the breeder, and others is a joy....
> 
> Maybe its just that I'm old fashion - I don't understanding why everyone doesn't want to attend everyone of these show that they could possibly get to.


The hobby has changed. The economy has changed. People are limited in funds to travel, vacation/leave time, and the availability of several species has changed over the years. It is easier to obtain many species, but other species haven fallen through the cracks which is whole different thread/topic. Like I said, most people are going to choose one. 



chuckpowell said:


> You might even meet the person who started the American Dendrobatid Group or Frog Day. I seen him at both.


One of the reasons I wanted to go this year and meet you in person and tell you how much I enjoy busting out my ADG binder and reading the history of the hobby over my winter breaks.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> Jason, in the center of your own subjective universe, you may see more froggers "eaving online, but I have not seen any evidence of this or for any hobby for that matter. People are more connected to the internet and connected more often and there is plenty of statistics online to support my statement. If you would say there is less forum participation, then you certainly may be correct.


Forum traffic is certainly down. It you want to talk internet traffic then you have to look at the main facet which is Facebook; Pew reports in 2013 has 71% of adults who are online use Facebook. This is the trend that has dropped forum participation. There was a time I would say in the span of 2007-2012 (it could be an earlier date) that this forum was THE place for networking with hobbyist and not just the casual keeper. The history here is packed with insight and information from those folks, that are still involved just not here. (Thus why some of us were upset by the sale to a company and not keeping this forum in the hobby.) 

Back to the topic, my commentary is a reflection of the comment by Chuck "It amazes me how little is know about Frog Day by the frog hobby here on Dendroboard." 

Dendroboard is no longer the only place to discuss dart frogs and other amphibians. A glance at Facebook shows plenty or regional groups discussing. How many of these topics appear here? Plus there is the cycle of the hobby: newbies, boom and bust folks, casual keepers, silent keepers, to long timers the forum has a change population that may not be aware of what Frog Day or other events are or who is putting them on. 




ecichlid said:


> Perhaps people should avoid "shows" like NABRC? Save your money for a real show?


However, many of the good vendors I know also vend NARBC and many people keep other herps besides amphibians. I don't see this happening. 



ecichlid said:


> Is a part of what you are saying is harder to find frogs you want to purchase?


No, it is easier to find frogs and information about species these days.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I think an interesting comparison would be an event like the SCADs meet at ERIC's house. He topped out at about 50 people and had to turn some away. It was only a few months after these other CA shows. I think people enjoy the grass roots relaxed environment and socialization the home-based meets provide. Granted, I don't think any funds were raised for conservation. 

At shows, I find it to be a less relaxed environment, with the "opposing" nature of tables and booths in a show format. Sure, you can chat with some great froggers over their tables, but its not the same as chilling with great froggers on a patio with some brews and tacos. 

Perhaps the frog shows adopt too much of the "Supershow" paradigm, which is inherently based on a churning, grinding , frenzied concept of commercialization. I'd say try a different approach and rent a cabin for a day or two and BBQ, drink, socialize first, then the funds will flow for conservation. Try a frog day retreat in the mountains or on a houseboat...perhaps its time to think outside of the traditional box of a show with booths in a sterile conference room. My 2 cents.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I would agree that perhaps the trick for this hobby is decentralization. Instead of banking on a couple big shows we need to revitalize and encourage local meets and clubs. Perhaps some way of raising funds could be done(an auction-for example), but also I think what would be nice is get clubs involved in local grassroots conservation and outreach. Partnering with local school and other community groups to offer expertise, for example. I've had the opportunity of helping a couple places design or modify dart frog exhibits. 

Instead of driving our focus inward, we should be reaching outward to engage the public. I actually did drop by frogday with my folks and afterward we talked a bit about it. They mentioned it seemed to be a rather closed event-would be difficult for non-froggers to appreciate. 


Also, I'd find a show a bit daunting as a total newbie...in fact I still do find the shows a little daunting. It is a lot harder to talk frogs over a vendor table than just with a hobbyist. There is an unspoken pressure to purchase something for one. Also, this hobby is pretty specialized, even among animal hobbies...so a local mentor would be a great help for new hobbyists just starting.

Dart frogs don't lend themselves very well to this but I have done quite a few educational presentations for local schools using my animals. I have brought dart frogs(azureus confined to small secure clear containers, but just about any sturdy and not spazzy ssp. would do) and people are fascinated by them. These have been incredibly rewarding. I urge especially those of you employed in STEM to pursue this. I've also adopted tadpoles out to a few friends, who returned them to me after the froglets crawled out of the water. A partnership of this sort with schools, a nature center, etc. would be something to push for.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> A partnership of this sort with schools, a nature center, etc. would be something to push for.


Many 4-H chapters would be happy to have a herp club as it's an area of increasing interest. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I'm going to just add something brief here to clarify some false suppositions and to prevent misinformation and misinterpretations. Specifically, at least in regard to MICROCOSM:

1. It is not just a frog show. It's also not a herp show. As Chuck stated, the point of MICROCOSM is to increase the biodiversity one can find at an event. We bring in 'glass box' hobbies: orchids, carnivorous plants, custom glaziers and builders, fish hobbyists, aquatic plant growers, unique reptile breeders (dwarf geckos, obscure anoles, etc.), quality natural history art and a variety of other things.

2. The point of MICROCOSM is not to be a huge event. One of the primary points of the event is to actually raise the bar in how we approach these various hobbies, in regard to the advancement of naturalistic enclosure design and building as well practicing these hobbies in sustainable ways. We also purposefully try to bring in people working with some of the more obscure flora/fauna. All of these things, in and of themselves, tend to make the event somewhat self-selecting: by its very nature it will never be a huge expo simply because it's not a 'general' show.

3. Although we love having people come in from across the country, the goal is not to exist by depending on them to be there. We have been extremely specific in the locations we have chosen to hold it (the Pacific Northwest and Southern California) because of the potential of attracting regional vendors and attendees. The potential strength of a regional network is a large determinant in where we hold the event.

4. Someone mentioned that attendance is dwindling: this has been the opposite of what has occurred with MICROCOSM. In fact, each year attendance has been larger than the year before, both for the Friday night lectures and the Saturday vendor shows. Are thousands coming through the doors? No, but as I said above, that's also not our goal. As cliche as it may sound, we're trying to focus on quality over quantity. 

People seem to be judging these events' "success" based on variables and expectations that don't actually apply to _why_ we are holding the event (at least in the case of MICROCOSM). Try to be aware of the fact that everything being brought up here has been brought up countless times in countless event planning committees: not everything is doable, and even when it is, not everyone (rarely anyone, to be honest) steps up to the plate to do it. Only so much can be done at any one event. 

For those who are curious, the next MICROCOSM will take place September 2015 in Seattle and I believe Frog Day will be in Arizona in the spring.

For MICROCOSM we want to encourage the community that can still be found within these hobbies. We want people to have an experience of the natural world of the region in which the event is being held. We want to encourage sustainable practices, raise the bar in regard to technology and building/construction methods, and actually create a venue where real issues of conservation can be discussed and money raised for their support.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Ron, is there any plans for a MICROCOSM on the east coast?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

At this point, no...at least not in the next couple years.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> For those who are curious, the next MICROCOSM will take place September 2015 in Seattle and I believe Frog Day will be in Arizona in the spring.


Even though it means a hell of a drive, I'm really excited to see a show in Washington again. It's been a long time since the last NWFF!


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Dane said:


> Even though it means a hell of a drive, I'm really excited to see a show in Washington again. It's been a long time since the last NWFF!


If attendance has been steadily increasing since having it in SD, then it should continue to be hosted in SD....Selfish opinion


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Room shopping from cat con. 
I think this is a great idea


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Most hotels are not on board for these types of events. It can be hard enough to get one to rent a room to a herp related event, including a frog event.

Edit: I should add NAE was a great success.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

NathanB said:


> Room shopping from cat con.
> I think this is a great idea
> The All-Aquarium CatFish Convention 2014 (in room sales on 3rd floor) - HD - YouTube



The cichlid hobby does it that way too. So much better than how it's done in the frog or reptile hobby. I think it's because the companies that run these reptile shows are businesses. That's not how it is with fish, those shows are run by a national club with support of the local host club. In addition, the larger reptile, plant and frog vendors don't like it because it would mean more competition from hobbyists. It's so much more fun and social the way they do it with fish.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> The cichlid hobby does it that way too. So much better than how it's done in the frog or reptile hobby. I think it's because the companies that run these reptile shows are businesses. That's not how it is with fish, those shows are run by a national club with support of the local host club. In addition, the larger reptile, plant and frog vendors don't like it because it would mean more competition from hobbyists. It's so much more fun and social the way they do it with fish.


It would be way cheaper just to sell my frogs out of a hotel room. But the herp hobby is different in we buy terrariums and other items at shows. I don't see people selling bulk dry goods this way. One thing I like to do it buy my supplies at shows to save shipping and it is cheaper than going to the pet shop. I have been to a few fish shows and supplies at them are no different than going to PetCo, PetsMart, or the local shop for the most part.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Let me explain a little. There are 3 shopping opportunities at cat con. 
The vendor room is open every day of the event. Here you find the bigger companys with dry goods, lots of fish, etc. There are 3 days of talks, in between every talk people wander the vendor area and fish room, often making purchases based on what they just heard. 
Then one night after dinner till early morning(for some people) they have the room sale event. The vendors also take part if they want. There is free beer, and snacks. It's much more of a social event than just a sale type thing. Then on Sunday is the all day auction. 
These auctions have everything, from high $ fish to large tank setups. It would be like going to a reptile show, but everything's sent to auction on the last day instead of the vendors taking them home. 
As far has hotels, this was at a very nice Hyatt near dulles airport. If you sell enough rooms they don't really mind about what your doing.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

NathanB said:


> The vendor room is open every day of the event. Here you find the bigger companys with dry goods, lots of fish, etc. There are 3 days of talks, in between every talk people wander the vendor area and fish room, often making purchases based on what they just heard.


We have this currently and it works well. Attendance at NAE was right their with Frog Day Chicago, and I would guess right with Midwest frog Fest. All of those were way better than Mideast Frog Feast. I know Dan was very happy with the fundraising level NAE did. 



NathanB said:


> Then one night after dinner till early morning(for some people) they have the room sale event. The vendors also take part if they want. There is free beer, and snacks. It's much more of a social event than just a sale type thing. Then on Sunday is the all day auction. These auctions have everything, from high $ fish to large tank setups. It would be like going to a reptile show, but everything's sent to auction on the last day instead of the vendors taking them home.


We are way to small of a niche in the herp hobby. Why pay to vend and compete against room sales? My NAE analogy just proves it. I sold the most I ever have at an amphibian only sale and believe it had a lot to deal with the lack of packing lot sale advertisements. 



NathanB said:


> As far has hotels, this was at a very nice Hyatt near dulles airport. If you sell enough rooms they don't really mind about what your doing.


I can tell you have never hosted such an event, because they do care. One incident and all animal related hobbies get banned.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

You don't pay to vend, the vendors are manufactures, distributors, and importers. ZooMed, Understory Enterprises, Mist King type of companies. Cat con had ~14 vendors.
Everyone else was a attendee and sold through room sales or the auction. The vast majority of money comes from the auction which is open to the public and free for buyers. 
I know it would be iffy to pull off in this hobby, but I'm not sure its impossible.

btw if you ever get a chance to listen to Dr Melanie Stiassny do it.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

So who fronts the room fee, event insurance, advertising, table and chair fees, ect? There is a ton of behind the scenes items that must come together. Fundraiser events like NAE and Frog Day uses table fees to cover these cost so most of the door and then all auction proceeds go to conservation.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

The fish club(s) do, in this case the local aquarium society. Others have a national club backing. Heres how they monetized it

attendees:


> Registration Payment Options: Check, cash, or Paypal.
> 
> All individuals registered (and paid) for the conference prior to August 1 will be entered into a drawing for a prize valued at $200
> 
> ...


Hotel rooms are not included in those prices.
Sponsors/vendors pay a lot of money to access the attendees 
All-Aquarium Catfish Convention 2014
The main sponsors shelled out almost $20,000 alone
And the auction split is:


> The first $1.50 of the selling price goes to the club. Sellers registered for the convention will recieve 80% of the remainder. Sellers who have not registered for the convention will recieve 70% of the remaining proceeds above $1.50. PVAS Junior members age 17 and under receive a 100% commission.


Vendor pricing:
http://catfishcon.com/vendorsales.php


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Not going to happen, the cost, the infrastructure, Ect are not in place and not practical.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Maybe it's just me, but after driving several hundred miles to get to a venue, I like for my hotel room to be something of a sanctuary AWAY from the event, without having anyone and everyone walking through. 
It seems like a novel idea, and I'm sure it works well for the Catfish hobby, but vendor fees are typically VERY reasonable at amphibian/vivarium shows, and accessible to almost anyone that wishes to reserve a table.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Everything is a negotiation if one hotel cares look for a different one. Given the dumps the economy has been in I can think of multiple hotels off the top of my head that would jump at a chance like this in a split second. 

Here is my problem, really with dart frogs we don't take up that much space, we don't have enough vendors and people that we would need to do this. Most likely everyone that wanted to sell frogs could fit in a decent sized convention center ball room with room to spare. So if you had a choice to walk from room to room or just have everything neatly laid out for you in a single large room and there was no cost difference or it was very small what would you choose?

I would pick the ball room, it would be more social, faster to move from table to table, pretty much everything would be better except the added cost of renting that space. 

But other wise it is completely doable if someone is motivated to try this model. I don't know what insurance or anything else has to do with it, realistically everyone knows all the same animals and people are in the hotels anyway taking the same risks. And hotels will often rent off blocks of rooms close to each other for all sorts of events like weddings where people meander from room to room. 

The real issue here is that at hotels connected to an event the event planners are the ones who are going to actively push the hotel to crack down on this behavior as they want people to pay to get in, or rent space. This argument has been done many times from the smallest shows to the largest like E3.


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## nagasaki (Feb 9, 2012)

ShaunO said:


> I was not in on the original conversation on this topic, but it did strike me as odd that both shows were in California within 2 months of each other. That could be a reason for decreased attendance for both shows, since they both draw from the same community. If the organizers can coordinate to have the shows in different parts of the country, or at least times of year, it would probably drive up attendance, as well at make it easier for vendors to attend both shows. It does not matter how much advertising you put into both since there is a limited demand.
> 
> Shaun


Move show aound to more areas. For sure.


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