# "Tame" dart frogs??



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I did a search and found nothing similar so here goes.....

I have a 4 month old Cauchero subadult that absolutely seems "tame". It literally will sit by the vert door or pop out of a brom ect when I open the door. It will feed right in front of me and I can almost touch it at will with my extended finger. It looks like it really wants to interact with me.

Please post your similar experiences and species accounts...

P.S...I may have to get a pic of the frog and my finger.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I've got a pair of costa rican auratus that are the same way. They are more after food than anything else though. My usual habit involves misting all the vivs then feeding them all after. Most of my tincs are doing their thing when I mist, but 20 mins later when I feed they are all waiting at the doors for their food.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Yeah Tim......probably 70% of all my various dart species have an unafraid reaction to feeding and seek to jam the viv door ect, but this is the first pumilio that did this particular behaviour. It is without a doubt, NOT food related. Very strange...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

My bassleri and pepperi adults seem to be the same way.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Almost all my frogs run to the doors anytime I am around, even after feeding time. Two of my Powderblues will jump on my hand or arm almost anytime they can, and my Terribilis are the same way. I think these guys learn to trust us to some extent.
I find it even more interesting when froglets or young juvies act this way because they tend to be more shy.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

My galacts are very similar. I've been using their viv to try out different plant cuttings and placements. When I put my hand in, neither frog reacts and I feel like I could definitely reach out a poke 'em if I wanted to. 

I did not have this experience with my azureus. Despite their reputation, they would always scatter/hide when anything other than flies or a misting nozzle entered their space.

Got any pics of the bold little bugger?


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## ramos93352 (Apr 8, 2008)

my new tarapoto imis are alot like that. there are two of them that will pop out of their broms when I open the door, and jump right onto my hand if I place it near them.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

My leucs are the same, it doesnt matter wha im doing. They will jump on my hand while I'm siphoning their viv,or placing plant cuttings. One female likes to climb the siphon while I'm siphoning


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

I had a couple of my Cristobal froglets ,they were about a year old . If you would tap on the door or open the door they would hop right on over and put their front legs right up on the Exo terra 's lip and look out at me, almost every time . Like a dog up on a window sill  .


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

My Azureus are the same way. When I go in there to clip the plants, check for eggs, siphon the water, etc. They pretty much jump on my hands all the time. I actually have to push them aside to clear my way.


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## NMiamiguy40 (Feb 23, 2010)

Im new to the dart hobby but i have 3 Azureus and when they hear me talk they all come popping out to see me. one will come all the way up to the glass door and i can put my finger right in front of his face and he wont even flintch. the suspected female only comes half way up and the other suspected male just peeks out his brom but wants nothing to do with me. LOL. I guess the pecking order is in play.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Interesting mix of species accounts....


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Yeah, anytime I have to move something in the Azeurus tank, they are in the way. They come out when I open the lid. They have eaten flies off my hand when I didn't notice one was on me and I was pruning vines. I have had them crawl to the top while doing maintenance and had to gently push them all the way back down the wet glass by the nose. I've got some red galacts almost that tame.

Along the same lines, I just got in a shipment of Bicolors from Sean Stew. They are tiny and they are by far the bravest, most outgoing frogs I have ever seen at that size. I took them out of the shipping container and into their temp tank, and they were hunting springs and pooping within 30 seconds.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

"tame" means domesticated which means that genetic changes have occured to the population.. 

The words to use in this case is habituated, acclimated or conditioned. These indicate that a reduction of fight/flight has occured without impacting genetics. 

Ed


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

I always mist my tanks before feeding, some kind of conditioning, if you want to. My azureus, reginas and alanis then come to the front and observe what is going on, they wait behind the glass. When I open up again to give them the food, they don't even jump away, sitting on the best spots and waiting. Sometimes I am afraid they might jump out in a moment of scare, so I harry them back a bit. If I don't feed they go on observing my movements for some time, then go and look if they missed something. My darklands won't wait for me or the food, but like Phil I can put my finger close to them, before they jump away and they are always observing while I work on/in their viv.

This does not work for my vittatus, my auratus, my black jeans, my citronellas nor my the benedictas. They tend to panic when I open the doors...

Have a nice day

gluedl


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

I had a pair of azureus that were very much like this.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

ramos93352 said:


> my new tarapoto imis are alot like that. there are two of them that will pop out of their broms when I open the door, and jump right onto my hand if I place it near them.


Yeah, I handle my froglets a lot so most of the imitator I have are rather tame/not bothered by human contact.

One of my female retics will hop on my hand too. She is nearly 8 years old now.


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## vugger#1 (Jul 20, 2009)

My group of Aurotania's are so bold you need to make sure they don't jump out of the higher plants into the fly cup. They beg like dogs if you skip a feeding. If you put your hand in the tank they come out and check it out almost like they are sniffing you.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I have a Cayo de Agua pumilio that is pretty habituated to my presence. If I open up the tank it usually just sits there on a leaf or in the opening of an old rusty can it seems to prefer for cover.


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## new frog breeder (Feb 12, 2010)

does the tameness come with age.


my Juvenile citronella will always hide when I get near the cage
and will only eat if no one is around


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

new frog breeder said:


> does the tameness come with age.
> 
> 
> my Juvenile citronella will always hide when I get near the cage
> and will only eat if no one is around


You will hear different theories bouncing around, but age is definetly a factor. I think another factor is the frogs familiarity/comfort level with his enclosure. Proper temperature and humidity gradients play a part as well. I've noticed that the frogs I have in busy, noisier parts of the house definetly get bolder. I have a housing routine that I put new froglets through that I think has resulted in bolder, less panicky frogs...except my ancon hills, those suckers are scared of everything.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

All of my tincs do this. Thats why I keep mostly tincs at the moment.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

Tame
adj. tam·er, tam·est 
1. Brought from wildness into a domesticated or tractable state.
2. Naturally unafraid; not timid: "The sea otter is gentle and relatively tame" (Peter Matthiessen).
3. Submissive; docile; fawning: tame obedience.
4. Insipid; flat: a tame Christmas party.
5. Sluggish; languid; inactive: a tame river.

Definition 2 also applies. People have "domesticated" wild animals for thousands of years and some are just naturally not shy. It all had to start somewhere without "genetic change". Although its not advised, I know some people who have kept a wolf or a coyote as a pet. I don't think any dart can be "trained" to set and beg. I just think some are much bolder than others.
Also, some of these darts come from long lines of captive breeding. Is that not techically a change in genetics? Forced breeding in captivity without natural selection?



Ed said:


> "tame" means domesticated which means that genetic changes have occured to the population..
> 
> The words to use in this case is habituated, acclimated or conditioned. These indicate that a reduction of fight/flight has occured without impacting genetics.
> 
> Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

WVFROGGER23 said:


> Tame
> adj. tam·er, tam·est
> 1. Brought from wildness into a domesticated or tractable state.
> 2. Naturally unafraid; not timid: "The sea otter is gentle and relatively tame" (Peter Matthiessen).
> ...


There are specific definitions used for tame, domestication, acclimated, etc that are specific to behaviors of animals in captivity of which those above are watered down variations. The use of tame to describe the interaction with the otter, does not take into account that this response was by what would be considered a naive animal to the human contact. The animal has no prior behavior either innate or learned on which to base a response to the human contact and the default in this case is not a flight or fight response which is often interpreted as a degree of "tameness". If the observer had attempted to pick up or restrain the otter, a very different response would have occured and tameness would have no part in it (and the otter would not act tame to the observer in the future). 

Actually I suggest looking into the animal behavior literature on domestication, and by extension tameness it is large wide bodied and all of it involves genetic change and adaptation by the species involved. I've read a wide portion of it.. 
The zoological technical definition of domestication is as follows: The selective breeding of species by humans in order to accomedate human needs. Domestication also requires considerable modification of the natural ecosystems to ensure the survivial and optimum production from the domesticated species. (Concise Oxford Dictionary of Zoology)

Tameness has a similar definition and is under genetic control and deliberate selection (see for example the famous study on tameness that involved foxes http://www.hum.utah.edu/~bbenham/2510 Spring 09/Behavior Genetics/Farm-Fox Experiment.pdf as this involved selection for tameness which has specific changes to the physiology of the animal. ) 

People who have been/are keeping wolves (pure or dog/wolf hybrids) and/or coyotes as pets do not have "tame" pets. They have animals that are acclimated to humans and often behave in a manner that allows them to be kept with people, however, these interactions have to be handled in a manner that is socially acceptable to the animal as they have specific behaviors (that often can be very different than dogs) that are hard wired into them and have to be accounted for when working with those animals. 

This is why it tameness cannot be used in this respect. The correct terms are habituated, conditioned and acclimated. One of the preoccuring items that allows this conditioning is that the frogs are (under natural conditions) toxic which allows them to be active during the day with some degree of immunity to predation (ala red eft newts). This predisposition is in large part what allows them to become acclimated to human presence. IF the frogs have learned to associate people with food then this is a conditioned response. As the frogs have not been genetically bred in a manner that complies with domestication, they are not domesticated and tameness does not really apply. If I had more energy I would dig out the animal behavior and conditioning books to provide citations.. but I don't have the time or energy so I leave that to those who are really interested in learning the correct usages. 

I don't think that anyone really has conditioned them to sit and beg (the actual correct term in animal behavior is stationed). The frogs are conditioned to associate the door opening with food, and or the presence of the person with the introduction of food. As the frogs are hard wired to take advantage of abundent food sources, this results in the behavior of either sitting where food normally appears (as if it was a ant trail that was commonly utilized) or attempting to get closer to the food source.. 

Ed 

Ed


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

I agree on many points. Like I said the frogs aren't trained to set and beg or (stationed) as you put it. They are merely acclimated to the human presence by seeing us every day and possibly associating us with their food source. 

I'm not going to type out a book here because I have other things to do. Here are some links on the most important example in history of domestication, the horse.

The date of the domestication of the horse depends to some degree upon the definition of "domestication." Some zoologists define "domestication" as human control over breeding, which can be detected in ancient skeletal samples by changes in the size and variability of ancient horse populations. Other researchers look at broader evidence, including skeletal and dental evidence of working activity; weapons, art, and spiritual artifacts; and lifestyle patterns of human cultures. There is also evidence that horses were kept as meat animals prior to being trained as working animals.

Domestication of the horse


The greatest problem is distinguishing between wild and domesticated animals, and indeed what exactly is meant by the term ‘domestication’. The zoological definition of domestication is ‘Human control over the breeding of horses’. The cultural definition of domestication is ‘the regular keeping, maintenance, and exploitation of tamed animals’. (IAES 2001)
The original techniques for identifying animal domestication (changes in bone morphology, kill off patterns and changes in habitat distribution) are too ambiguous to be reliable in the case of the horse (http.). Results are disputed and controversial.

http://www.leveldk.co.uk/lizard/docs/domestication_of_the_horse_abstract.pdf


As you can see from the reading, the zoological definition is reguarded as very "narrow." Not all zoologists agree and the true definition is widely disputed as with many research subjects. I believe in keeping an open mind when it comes to research. Sometimes there is a definate right and wrong, but in this case it seems to be a matter of opinion. I don't usually take all research as "set in stone" as it is constantly changing and it all differs with each book or article you read. I'm not out to prove right from wrong with this post I just think we should all be more open minded when it comes to each others opinions. I am not saying your definition is wrong by any means. Its just what research you choose to follow. I'm always happy to read your posts. Its not often you get a good read on the forums and you are always very in depth on every detail. I wish I could do the same, but this is just merely a side hobby for me. I would LOVE to do it for a living.







Ed said:


> There are specific definitions used for tame, domestication, acclimated, etc that are specific to behaviors of animals in captivity of which those above are watered down variations. The use of tame to describe the interaction with the otter, does not take into account that this response was by what would be considered a naive animal to the human contact. The animal has no prior behavior either innate or learned on which to base a response to the human contact and the default in this case is not a flight or fight response which is often interpreted as a degree of "tameness". If the observer had attempted to pick up or restrain the otter, a very different response would have occured and tameness would have no part in it (and the otter would not act tame to the observer in the future).
> 
> Actually I suggest looking into the animal behavior literature on domestication, and by extension tameness it is large wide bodied and all of it involves genetic change and adaptation by the species involved. I've read a wide portion of it..
> The zoological technical definition of domestication is as follows: The selective breeding of species by humans in order to accomedate human needs. Domestication also requires considerable modification of the natural ecosystems to ensure the survivial and optimum production from the domesticated species. (Concise Oxford Dictionary of Zoology)
> ...


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

I started to doze off while reading those last 2 posts....


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Im pretty sure frogs learn how to beg. I know my leucs wil line up at the fromt of their viv and stare me down till I feed them as soon as Im home in the afternoon. They are definitely easy to condition to a schedule


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

haha...a lot of good info. A little extraneous, but good none the less.

If you put a word in quotes, can't it mean almost *anything* similar and not have to be perfect and literal in its usage? I'm prolly wrong on this too.

The other reason I used the word "tame" was that it was an easy attention grabber, short word and should be quickly recognized by the majority of people on this forum - younger, newer hobbyists for the implied meaning.

No harm, no foul.

Carry on....


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> If you put a word in quotes, can't it mean almost *anything* similar and not have to be perfect and literal in its usage? I'm prolly wrong on this too.


I believe you mean you're "prolly" wrong on that...


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

My terribilis and vents are the same way, my fat terribilis always try to hop on my hand. lol. My little vents try to hitch a ride on the spray bottle, they are beyond fascinated by a bottle that makes it rain.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> I believe you mean you're "prolly" wrong on that...


Most likely....LMAO ROTFLMAO LOL LOL LOL .......


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

Sorry about the rediculously long post guys. It's usually something I never do. As far as using the word tame....it sounds fine to me Phil. Read my first posts. I was just making a point of how not everyone on this board is wrong because they do something different or follow different research ideas. It's tiring to post on the forum and always be corrected on every aspect of your posts. You will probably never see a post like that from me again, I promise. Lol


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