# What kind of Dart Frog is this ?!?!?!



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

I found a picture of it here but it had no Identification - Its from Peru if that helps anyone...
here is the frog:









Here is where I found it:
Photo gallery - Dendrobates.org

That little guy is freaking awesome. I wonder if there are any captive breed populations.


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## -Jex- (Mar 29, 2008)

Looks like a Dendrobates castaneoticus but im not sure. Try this link for reference. castaneoticus It is an amazing looking frog what ever it is.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dendrobates.org - captivus expedition pt. 1


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Dendrobates captivus

Wow thats amazing... It was last seen in 1929 until 2006. thats one elusive frog.
Absolutely amazing looking.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Thats the frog that produced the joke:

What's the popping sound you hear everytime a new dart frog species is discovered ?

German passports being opened and closed....


...gotta fill in the rest of the joke to "get it".


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Definitely captivus.

I think there are a few in captivity in the US. I'm fairly sure they're all illegal too.

At microcosm it was hinted at that there _may_ be a few legal exports from Peru two or three years down the road.

Gorgeous frog for sure.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Oh so Peru don't allow legal exportation of there frogs.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Nicholas said:


> Oh so Peru don't allow legal exportation of there frogs.


They definitely don't allow export of certain species of frogs. All the work that it takes to get permission is pretty ridiculous. Best to avoid this frog right now. Eventually it will be offered from reliable breeders. Patience is key.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Honestly I am not bothered if I can never have one. Provided that they are not on the verge of going extinct and may need a breeding stock in captivity to reintroduce in the wild.

But man what a beautiful frog.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

peru, from my understanding, isnt to happy that there were specimens being sold in germany and japan within a few months of their re-discovery. so yes there are some in captivity, but illegally.

james


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Excidobates captivus - possibly the best genus name ever.

Dendrobates.org - Excidobates captivus


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

zBrinks said:


> Excidobates captivus - possibly the best genus name ever.
> 
> Dendrobates.org - Excidobates captivus



Possibly one of the most spectacularly marked and colored darts ever...
Just look at it.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I didn't know they'd created a new genus. Excidobates. The forgotten walkers. I think it goes exceptionally well with the species name "mysteriousus" too!



zBrinks said:


> Excidobates captivus - possibly the best genus name ever.
> 
> Dendrobates.org - Excidobates captivus


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

if you like these look up ranitomeya abdita. also black with orange.

and it should have read "peru, from my understanding, isnt TOO* happy that..." in my last post.

james


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

ranitomeya abdita

thats a nice looking frog as well. Not as profoundly colored as this one but still nice looking...

Here is a picture
ranitomeya abdita


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

You should buy "Adventure to Captivus". Its a good time and a bit of a laugh. Also, if you like the look of captivus, get some castis. They are incredibly bold and look quite similar to captivus. I'm a sucker for the multiple color on black.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Can you find a picture of one? I tried. I failed.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I don't believe the link to buy that movie works anymore....I tried it earlier in the summer...


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

yours said:


> I don't believe the link to buy that movie works anymore....I tried it earlier in the summer...


Huh?


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Adventure to Captivus dvd.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Adelphobates castaneoticus:









There's a nice little history of the frog in the hobby here:
Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Adelphobates castaneoticus “Brazil Nut frog”


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

yours said:


> I don't believe the link to buy that movie works anymore....I tried it earlier in the summer...


I just found it and it works (might be a different link). 

Adventure to captivus


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Try to purchase the dvd though.....that's the one that doesn't work...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

yours said:


> Try to purchase the dvd though.....that's the one that doesn't work...


I wouldn't be suprised if Richard and Mike will have it for sale at MARS / IAD.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

A. castaneoticus aren't legal to have though, correct?

That would be sweet Phil...I'll be on the look out..........had to take my car in for servicing so that might set me back some 



Alex


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

yours said:


> Try to purchase the dvd though.....that's the one that doesn't work...


Oh... gotcha!


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

stemcellular said:


> You should buy "Adventure to Captivus". Its a good time and a bit of a laugh. Also, if you like the look of captivus, get some castis. They are incredibly bold and look quite similar to captivus. I'm a sucker for the multiple color on black.


oooo hoooo lol!

I thought you was talking about a frog named "Captivus" LOL oops


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

yours said:


> A. castaneoticus aren't legal to have though, correct?
> 
> That would be sweet Phil...I'll be on the look out..........had to take my car in for servicing so that might set me back some
> 
> ...


well that depends on who you ask.... they are a brazillian frog and are not, from my understanding, technically legal, but are tolerated by most hobbyists, like quinqevittatus or even azureus.

theay are available on a semi regular basis and at reasonable prices.

james


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Yep....sadly enough even after over 30 years, we still don't have a conclusive list of what's legal or not.


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

Brazil has never legally done shipment of frogs like the other countries. Maybe a few research permits here and there but that about it. Most of your galacts too are from illegal lines.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

rcteem said:


> Brazil has never legally done shipment of frogs like the other countries. Maybe a few research permits here and there but that about it. Most of your galacts too are from illegal lines.


What about from before the CITES era?


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

As far as I have heard and read no, but I could be wrong.



Catfur said:


> What about from before the CITES era?


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

So what would happen to you if this scenario happens...


You purchased a frog. You have really no idea about the law in Brazil (like me) and the frog happens to be from a frog that that was once Illegally removed and smuggled here or breed here legally but illegally let out into the hobby and you happen to have an offspring Obviously from a CRAP load of several generations removed... (because as we know dart reproduce like mice LOTS at a time and multiple times a year)

And some one realized that a frog in your collection was from a frog that a long time ago was Illegally removed or illegally let out into the hobby...

What would actually happen ?

I know it is against the law even tho you didn't know it was against the law. and you DO posses ownership of a frog that was once Illegally imported or released into the hobby... basically do frogs have naturalization rights like people LOL  if your parents are Illegal. But you was born here you are legal simple because you was born here.

and what would be the penalty for owning a frog if naturalization rights dont apply to frogs.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Depends on the frog. Most of us are willing to admit that we have azureus, galacts or even leucs (most leucs from my understanding are "technically" illegal). But my understanding is that if USFAW found leucs in your place you'd be pretty safe....

Hot topic frogs like the captivus or mysteriosus (or if it could be proven that your blue jeans, histrionicus or sylvaticus are illegal, as most (but not all) are) then... I've heard of entire frog collections taken away... huge fines... etc.



Nicholas said:


> So what would happen to you if this scenario happens...
> 
> 
> You purchased a frog. You have really no idea about the law in Brazil (like me) and the frog happens to be from a frog that that was once Illegally removed and smuggled here or breed here legally but illegally let out into the hobby and you happen to have an offspring Obviously from a CRAP load of several generations removed... (because as we know dart reproduce like mice LOTS at a time and multiple times a year)
> ...


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

There are two processes to importing frogs into the US - exporting and importing (sometimes these can happen more than once each). Most species of frogs in the US hobby (the ones that aren't hidden) have been legally imported into the US, not necessarily recently, but they have. I personally know of at least a half dozen legal imports of D. leucomelas, and nearly that many of D. azureus. Weather these animals were legally exported from the country of origin is another matter but I believe they wouldn't have been legally imported into the US if the paperwork was not correct - I work for the Federal government and I trust it to do things correctly. Some frogs that came into the US from Europe with legal paperwork from the country of export (somewhere in Europe), some didn't. So here you have a dichotomy - the frogs were legally imported into the US, but may not have been legally imported into Europe. What do you do - that's an individual concern. 

One other thing - I've worked with what was known as the Quinquivittatus group for over 20 years and many of the new species in the past 10 years were known about and even imported into the US before they were given their new names. I kept and breed a number of them years ago when they were called Dendrobates quinquivittatus, or after I wrote a couple articles on them Dendrobates ventrimaculatus. So are these frogs illegal because they have a new name? I don't think so. 

This is not to say that illegal frogs aren't brought into the US - I know they are - I've seen it, but I'll have nothing to do with it - I know what my morals are. But, I've said it may time previously - there is little to no history in this hobby. People come into the hobby and become fairly knowledgeable, but they don't know or seemly want to know what came before. There is knowledge out there but the research isn't being done. 

I'll step down from my soap box now.

Best,

Chuck 



Nicholas said:


> So what would happen to you if this scenario happens...
> 
> You purchased a frog. You have really no idea about the law in Brazil (like me) and the frog happens to be from a frog that that was once Illegally removed and smuggled here or breed here legally but illegally let out into the hobby and you happen to have an offspring Obviously from a CRAP load of several generations removed... (because as we know dart reproduce like mice LOTS at a time and multiple times a year)
> 
> ...


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

chuckpowell said:


> Some frogs that came into the US from Europe with legal paperwork from the country of export (somewhere in Europe), some didn't. So here you have a dichotomy - the frogs were legally imported into the US, but may not have been legally imported into Europe. What do you do - that's an individual concern.


So what would the USFAW do about this scenario? (I do not understand what you mean by an individual concern)


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Nicholas said:


> So what would the USFAW do about this scenario? (I do not understand what you mean by an individual concern)


No one knows. Maybe _they_ don't even know how to deal with our hobby.

Established CB frogs currently in the U.S - I doubt that there would be a search warrant or sting operation for these, but obviously , don't quote me on that.

For instance,I believe there are hundreds of Histrionicus in the U.S currently and I've never heard of a single bust / arrest for them.

Are U.S hobbyists: concerned, afraid, wary,undereducated, concientious, morally juxtaposed, confused, haughty....all of the above? Yep....


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Yep....sadly enough even after over 30 years, we still don't have a conclusive list of what's legal or not.


Right?! isn't that a shame...

I bet if you got busted one day for having a illegal frog, you could hire a lawyer and use that fact in order to dispute why you should not goto prison and have to share a bunk with Buck who like's to #$%&! for keeping a frog that may or may not be illegal.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> Dendrobates.org - captivus expedition pt. 1


Very cool read. I enjoyed reading that immensely! 
Thanks!

-Matt


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

What I man by an individual concern is that it is a moral issue and you'll have to decide what's right for yourself. Legal doesn't equal moral - they could but some are held to higher or lower level. Personally I'll take the high road. 

The authorities aren't going to worry about someones individual frogs that have been legally imported in the past. To may loop holes and police/prosecutors don't like to loose. Now if you have something that's never been legally imported that's a different story. Or if you've pissed them off in some other way. Well, your on your own. 

Best,

Chuck



Nicholas said:


> So what would the USFAW do about this scenario? (I do not understand what you mean by an individual concern)


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Here's the other thing about Law Enforcement...

They are almost always _compelled to act_ on a complaint. If someone (credible) is willing to testify or sign an affidavit that someone has commited the criminal act.....L.E almost always has to follow up on it.

Are they (feds and local F&W) on forums? Field herp.com.....small hobby sites? Yep.

Are you going to see a fall episode series of "Herp Smugglers" - going after importers and sting operations for hobbyists - nope.

Take the moral high road. Hobbyists have a way of finding their "own level".


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## Andy Hoffman (Aug 27, 2010)

I am in local law enforcement, and Philsuma is correct about being compelled by complaints (reasonable ones). That being said, and at least in Florida, local law enforcement would not have a clue what to do about a dart frog thats claimed to be illegal. If (and its a big if) they were sent to an illegal frog call, I would bet the law enforcement officer would admire the frog and think the complaint ridiculous. A small portion might call the game warden. The complaint would most likely go to the FWC (if in Florida), who might also not know anything about frogs, since they are usually tied up with complaints pertaining to bears and alligators, or reckless boaters and boating enforcement. 

However, I am also into coral reefing, and at a very large annual trade show last week, the FWC was there. They were issuing warnings to vendors without proper licenses. There is a big buzz about it in the reef forums. Apparently, they are checking the reef forums, ebay and craigslist to see who is selling coral frags and livestock without permits and licenses. So, to say state or federal law enforcement will never drop into the frog hobby might be a little optimistic.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Whats up Andy.

First off I would like to thank you for what you do. I am in the Military and have been so for almost the last 10 years. Every where I go people always shake my hand, buy my meals, military discounts EVERYWHERE ect... always so much thanks. But I don't think the same level of respect is given to Law Enforcement Officers (maybe because you all give the same people who shake my hand speeding tickets.) But I believe people should recognize and recognize respect the job that Law Enforcement Officers Provide. (also I could never be a police officer. I would feel like a hypocrite. Because I already know I could not write someone a ticket for ANYTHING I would due my myself. So thank you for providing a service I personally would refuse to do.) Maybe I am wrong. Maybe you do receive that amount of thanks as well. I have just never seen it and family members of mine who use to be and are police officers have never commented on it.

So with out further a due. 
Thank you.

But I do disagree a bit with you... Unless I misunderstood you. My cousin Chris is a cop out in WA, state. And he told me that if the Complaint is called up or reported and when the officer arrives see's a violation of the law. they will charge the individual. Weather the cop agree's or not. Thinks it's crap or not. Think's its absolutely ridiculous or not. The fact that it was reported and the person who reported knows its a crime means the cop could get in trouble for not doing his or her job. (which I understand but at the same time realize its crap as well, But... It's the law)


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## Andy Hoffman (Aug 27, 2010)

Hi Nicholas. Thank you for the kind words, and thank you for your valuable service in the military. Both of our careers have their own ups and downs, for sure. I wouldnt trade my gig for anything. They pay me to ride a motorcycle around. 

A lot of laws and terminology vary from state to state, and I am completely unfamiliar with WA state law. I am fortunate to have discretion, which I value tremendously. With the exception of domestic violence and homicide, I have the discretion to take action or not. Of course, common sense applies. I am not going to let everyone get away with whatever it is they may have done, or we would be in a society on the brink of anarchy. Not to mention my boss would wonder what I am doing. 

I am not saying I would ignore a complaint, however I could refer it to a specialized unit or another outside agency that is more adept at handling it. For example if Joe Q. Citizen calls and says his neighbor has illegally obtained frogs in their house, I can only do so much depending on how the scenario plays out. If I were to think I could blow the lid off an international illegal frog trafficking case and make myself look like a shining star, I would go knock on that neighbors door. From there, two things could happen. He could tell me to pound sand. In that case, its game over unless I can prove to a judge that there is probable cause that illegal frogs are in that house, namely in a specific location inside the house. I could only imagine the judge's reaction when he hears the search warrant request. I can not violate the frog trafficker's 4th amendment right against illegal search and seizure. Or, he could come clean and cop to everything. I honestly would not know what to charge him with, though. I would then call the Florida FWC (Fish & Wildlife Commission). I am willing to bet they would not respond immediately. We usually get the "next business day response." They are spread too thin, and are busy with other calls. From there, the illegal frog trafficker might have the chance to get rid of the frogs before FWC arrives. 

My point is, I seriously doubt they are going to get a warrant to kick through anyones door to look for frogs. In my 10+ years, I havent seen it happen. And most of the local agencies wouldnt respond to a call of that nature because they are busy with more urgent calls. I am not saying illegally obtained frogs are OK, just saying it would be extremely hard to find, prove, and prosecute. 

All of that said, I would like to know where I can get the frog you have pictured, as long as its legal. LOL.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Andy Hoffman said:


> All of that said, I would like to know where I can get the frog you have pictured, as long as its legal. LOL.


That is hilarious. Right there.

Wow... I guess taking the "Moral High Road" is pretty low... LOL! ...joking I would actually take one of them frogs as long as it was NOT wild caught... I think illegal frog trafficking is bad for the frogs and bad for the hobby and would turn one of those frogs away if it was wild caught.

But I am definitely more knowledgeable know... 

...BUT If the News Media got a hold of the story of a "Illegal frog smuggler in Florida" I guarantee the police and FWC would have there face's all over it no matter how insane the story was. and your discretion would mean $#!% at this point LOL!


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