# Would anything work in an 18x18x18?



## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

I'm flexible on species, but I have had trouble finding 18x18x24 exo terra for sale, but I have a deal to grab an 18x18x18 for anything. Is there any species they'd work for? I read it might work for leucomelas, but I don't wanna waste money and time, when I do a build I want to do it right. 

Thanks


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## HollyB83 (Nov 8, 2020)

Tarantuland said:


> I'm flexible on species, but I have had trouble finding 18x18x24 exo terra for sale, but I have a deal to grab an 18x18x18 for anything. Is there any species they'd work for? I read it might work for leucomelas, but I don't wanna waste money and time, when I do a build I want to do it right.
> 
> Thanks


I would recommend small species of dart frogs for 18 cubed, like O. pumilio or Ranitomeya sp. You may be able to get away with 1.1 D. tinctorius, but I would stick with a pair of smaller frogs. Make sure you use up as much air space as you can because they will access the entire tank if you let them


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

An 18x18x18" , when designed well, works nicely for most _Ranitomeya_ species. And 18x18x18" terrarium is about the smallest I would recommend for any species of dart frogs.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> An 18x18x18" , when designed well, works nicely for most _Ranitomeya_ species. And 18x18x18" terrarium is about the smallest I would recommend for any species of dart frogs.


Thanks, I’m gonna look into it some more. I understand from my previous threads that an 18x18x24 is minimum for tincs, the place I have a discount code for is out of that size and I’ve been looking and looking the 18x18x24 with no luck so far. I’ll look into ranitomeya though


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

I've been wondering why none of the mainstream companies offer something like a 24x24x24(36). Seems like that would make a much better size than 18x18x??


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## DendroJoris (Apr 13, 2021)

Nubster said:


> I've been wondering why none of the mainstream companies offer something like a 24x24x24(36). Seems like that would make a much better size than 18x18x??


They are probably harder to sell, because they are larger so they take up more space and they would be more expensive. Sometimes I have the feeling that these companies want to facilitate impulse buys. Especially on reddit I see numerous people every day with posts like: "I bought this 12" x 12" x 12", please recommend dart frogs for me the store said it was possible". 

A 24" x 24" x 24" as the mainstream would be awesome tho.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> when designed well


This. An 18 x 18 x 18 can be as spacious as a 24 high as they're typically set up. 

-- Bottom drain so essentially no clearance is needed for water build up
-- gravel (or turface, or 1"aquarium foam, or something else that isn't 5 inches of ABG) and leaf litter substrate,
-- no background -- 2" thick foam or cork mosaic on a wall of a typical 18 x 18 x 24 wastes almost 3 gallons of space for each wall foamed (18 x 18 x 2 = 648)/230= 2.8 gallons
--maximal use of the negative space with branches that are sized for the species of frog being kept; hollow cork rounds and other elements that are usable both inside and outside,
--no moss, frilly ferns, other plants that most frogs don't have much use for, and heavy use of plants chosen for the frog species being kept,
-- randomly sized leaf litter that creates usable surface on top and within.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

You can do a "background" using this method without wasting really any space:
Peat and silicone background build


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

There is essentially no difference whatsoever between an 18x18x24 and an 18x18x18 from a frogs perspective. The floor area is almost everything here. It makes a difference for plant selection but that's really it. 

Both are borderline/too small for anything except pairs of thumbnails.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

I ended up not buying it, but I did build a cool vivarium for a crested gecko hatchling in a 12x12x12 I already had. When I come across something bigger at a good price I'll pull the trigger


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

npaull said:


> There is essentially no difference whatsoever between an 18x18x24 and an 18x18x18 from a frogs perspective. The floor area is almost everything here. It makes a difference for plant selection but that's really it.
> 
> Both are borderline/too small for anything except pairs of thumbnails.


I'm going to disagree with you here. The more height there is, the more space there is for ledges / ramps, large leafed plants, and other ways to create more "floor space" for the frogs. Yes, the bottom tank footprint isn't changing but more height gives more opportunities to design the tank with more flat space opportunities for the frogs. 

An 18x18 base is 324 sq. in. If you add ledges (as I do for virtually all of my tanks), you can dramatically increase the amount of flat spaces for the frogs to use. Adding one 5x8" cork ledge gets you another 40 sq in (12% increase to the total flat space), adding a second one would mean you've added 24% more flat usable space, etc. . The more height I have the more of these I can include.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I recently tore down a few 12 x 12 x 18 thumb vivs (too small, and replaced with 12 x 12 x 24s. Two of them are going to be thumb growouts, but I moved a pair of imitator into one of them, and that pair shows similar changes in behavior as when I recently moved thumbs into InSitus -- increased activity and visibility. Part of that is likely the stimulation of the new viv, of course, but the increase in height opens up substantial usable area that is is used by the frogs all day long. 

I've kept leucs (the same specimens moved between vivs) in 12", 18" and 24" tall vivs and the 24" encourages much more exploration than the others.

In taller vivs there is also opportunity to create more of a lighting gradient, which I think is beneficial (as is providing a range of microhabitats of all sorts for frogs to choose from, and in doing so show the keeper what they prefer). Not a huge difference in that last 6 inches, I suppose, but darts are pretty responsive to slight variations.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Taller is better, don't get me wrong. Mostly for plants. But it is manifestly NOT the case that a 18x18x18 should be thought of as "terrestrial" and an 18x18x24 should be thought of as "arboreal." That's a common, but ludicrous, way of thinking. That's all I'm saying.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

npaull said:


> Taller is better, don't get me wrong. Mostly for plants. But it is manifestly NOT the case that a 18x18x18 should be thought of as "terrestrial" and an 18x18x24 should be thought of as "arboreal."


Agreed!


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

DendroJoris said:


> They are probably harder to sell, because they are larger so they take up more space and they would be more expensive. Sometimes I have the feeling that these companies want to facilitate impulse buys. Especially on reddit I see numerous people every day with posts like: "I bought this 12" x 12" x 12", please recommend dart frogs for me the store said it was possible".
> 
> A 24" x 24" x 24" as the mainstream would be awesome tho.


I did recently purchase a 18x18x25. I plan to set it up for my pair of leucs that are currently in a 12x12x18. I bought the viv with the frogs already in it but I know it's a bit too small so I want to upgrade them. I may or may not add a 3rd frog. But once that's set up and running well...I'm thinking hard about building an enclosure...either full glass or cellular PVC and glass and I'm making it 24x24x24 or 36.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

I got a deal and bought an 18x18x24 today so in a week or so I’ll start my build


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## DendroJoris (Apr 13, 2021)

Tarantuland said:


> I got a deal and bought an 18x18x24 today so in a week or so I’ll start my build


That's the spirit! looking forward to your build.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

Here is the one I did for my gecko. I’m excited to do one of the frogs. The exoterra is schedules to arrive july 7, but the show I’d like to get my frogs at is july 10. I’m thinking about putting the frogs in here for a month or so while the Viv build for frogs is establishing the plants and springtails.

That should be fine right? Just to let the frogs be in this one for about a month?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

So you're asking if you can hold frogs in there and then put a gecko in there afterwards without sterilizing the viv? If so, then no.

This comment is pretty off-topic, but a crested gecko (and darts) would really benefit from a lot more hiding and climbing opportunities.


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## Tarantuland (Jun 4, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> So you're asking if you can hold frogs in there and then put a gecko in there afterwards without sterilizing the viv? If so, then no.
> 
> This comment is pretty off-topic, but a crested gecko (and darts) would really benefit from a lot more hiding and climbing opportunities.


Thank you! I’ll add more climbing and hiding spots for the gecko, but I’ll either figure out something else temporary for the frogs until my vivarium is rooted, or I’ll hold off in getting them until the one I build is established.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tarantuland said:


> or I’ll hold off in getting them until the one I build is established


This is the best way.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

npaull said:


> There is essentially no difference whatsoever between an 18x18x24 and an 18x18x18 from a frogs perspective. The floor area is almost everything here. It makes a difference for plant selection but that's really it.
> 
> Both are borderline/too small for anything except pairs of thumbnails.


Or…a small group of epipedobates.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have kept a pair of tincs in one 18" cube and a lone male tinc in a separate 18" cube for 16 years. You can add ledges / caves etc that increase surface area and allow more places for the frogs to explore just fine.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Lovelyk said:


> Or…a small group of epipedobates.


This is way too small for a group..


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