# Ants!



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I heard something break in my frog room so I went in to check it out. Sure enough, my ceramic thermometer had fallen and broke. I was about to go and get the broom and dust pan when I decided to check on the vivs. Everything appeared as normal....except the banana feeder station seemed to be covered with flies. "That's funny, I haven't fed them today", I thought... That's when I realized they were ants. Then I noticed a stream of about 500 going in and out of the viv. Then I saw them covering the viv floor. I was almost reduced to a state of shock. This is my P. terribilis "Orange" viv, and it is very newly set up. Thanks to my wife's assistance, we recovered the 3 frogs, and now comes the tear down. Is there any way to stop, or lessen the likelihood of the ants returning? I have no desire to restock the viv with a banana chunk, but don't know if the ants will return habitually, like say, through a sort of conditioning... That scared the dirt outta me, and I don't want this to happen again. Any tips, or horror stories are welcome!

JBear


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

*FREE FOOD THAT COMES TO YOUR FROGS WOW 

lmao*


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

NickJR said:


> *FREE FOOD THAT COMES TO YOUR FROGS WOW
> 
> lmao*


The numbers of ants in there would have overwhelmed my 3 little guys quite quickly. I am VERY lucky that thermometer broke. I inspected the frogs thoroughly as well. All seems good(thankfully).

JBear


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You're going to hate this answer - but that's life. I don't have time to type it all up, and it's all been written before - if you Search for it.

s


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## Mer_ (Sep 11, 2011)

I could possibly see ant traps placed strategically around places where the ants can enter the room.

Something like this:

Raid Max Ant Bait

This could possibly be risky for the frogs though


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

Do you feel they are nesting in that viv or that they were trailing from somewhere else? Without knowing more details, I'm willing to bet they're nesting somewhere else. If you feel that's the case, then there isn't a need t breakdown your viv. Break the trail and let the frogs feed on the remaining ants. That being said, we need to establish what kind of ants you have. Since you're in Ohio, re can rule out fire ants, so it should be safe to let the frogs feed on the stragglers. 

Is there anyway you could get an up-close photo of the ants, or at least a basic description (with size and color, I might be able to narrow it down for you, but a magnified photo would be better). 

Here are some basic things you can do for most species of ants that shouldn't impact your frogs/vivs.

1. You must break the pheromone trail leading into the viv. An easy way to do this is to grab some windex, spray the entire length of the trail as far back as you can (starting outside of the viv of course). Windex contains ammonia. It will kill any ants it comes in contact with and will destroy the pheromone trail, all without leaving a residual problem. 

2. Eliminate any attractive food sources that might be open to the ants. There will most likely be random scouts foraging for new food sources. You don't want them to just move to a different tank.

3. caulk and seal the room as best you can to eliminate entry points. I know, easier said than done, but if you can inspect and find areas you think they might be coming in, seal them up.

4. If you feel you must use some sort of chemical measures, bait should be your sole choice. Do NOT get RAID, or some other aerosol for ants. Reason A, those products will kill on contact, and repel any further ants to that particular area. Reason B, too much of a risk for the frogs etc.

5. Baiting would be an acceptable treatment. You want to try and cut them off from entering the room, so the bait should be in locations proximate to the exterior (or where ever you feel they're coming in from). Cut them off at the pass with something attractive and they won't be as likely to forage and find the yummy goodies in your tanks. Also the bait will be taken back to the colony and slowly kill them out. 

6. A light talcum powder or baby powder coating around the base of your tanks, as well as any stand they are on will help to keep ants from climbing up and finding the tanks. These make the surfaces too slick for them to climb on. 

These are all general tips that should work for most species, but again, a positive identification should be made and then I can help more.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

I just saw the post about ant traps. Most "traps" are really bait stations, as stated before, put them in places to cut the ants off, as they will attract more ants to the trap through recruitment. 

You could use some sticky traps around the vivs, but typically only a minor number of ants will get caught on these.


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## Vinnner (Oct 1, 2010)

REcently had this problem with what i think was sugar or pharoah ants dwn here in FL. I had been noticing trails of them going in and out of vivs. After a ton of research and lots of "tracking" to find out where they were coming from, I found the source and placed one of the terro traps near the hole they were coming out of. It was loaded with ants within an hour. Two days later not on ant in sight. Got them at home depot. They work wonders. 

Hope this helps.

Vinny


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I have a good camera, but not that good of a lens to get a great pic, but I will try. My main concern at this point is that my home is serviced by Terminex. Is there a significant risk to the frogs if they ate a few before the infestation drove them into hiding? If I don't do a tear down and allow the frogs to "clean up" the remaining ants, would that pose a larger risk? The frogs are well fed and do not need to eat any more, I fear the ants will bite the heck out of them in the night, etc.

Thanks for your help!

JBear


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

Eww. The dreaded Big T! Be leary of them. They do have some good techs working for them, but they have a ton of under educated techs as well. I'll start with your questions first, then I have a few of my own regarding Terminix. 

1. If you follow my guidance from before, it's unlikely any of the ants that have feed on the bait will make it into your vivs. Once they've feed, they're going to head for the nest and not search for more food. 

2. Ants recruit more foragers, and they do this by feeding a small bit of what they've eaten as a sample. If these ants follow the trail and don't find the source, it's possible they might continue onward and stumble into a viv. I would not worry about this at all. The amount of pesticide found in a single ants ingestion is minute. Then divide that by the tiny amount they would share with this recruited forager, and it's practically non existent. The bait is going to filter down through the colony and kill out the ants. The ones with the strongest dose are not out looking for more food.

3. Since you're out of the fire ant distribution area, you shouldn't be worried about the ants stinging. Yes, there are some other species that could sting, but highly unlikely you have these species, and if so, the frogs will most likely eat them before getting stung anyway. Ants won't sting for no reason. Foraging ants typically will just try to avoid anything. It's the ones defending the nest that are aggressive.

I hope that answers your questions. Now on to your Terminix service. What is the reason for having the contract? I ask this because all pest management firms will try to convince you that you need a maintenance service, it's how they make the majority of their money. Salesmen will use scar tactics to insist that you need "year round protection" or some other pitch to try and get you to sign a contract for routine service. Most people do not need this type of service. Also, their routine service probably entails a monthly preventive treatment with something like Talstar, which is deadly for fish and amphibians. You probably do not need these treatments, and all it is doing is exposing you, your family, and pets to unnecessary pesticides. They may claim they're sae, but trust me these are not something you want being sprayed for the hell of it. One key thing to watch out for, if the technician is handling a sprayer or other chemical applicator without gloves, then they are not safeguarding their own lives, so why should you think they have your best interests in mind? 

I'm willing to bet, that if you call them about the ants, they're going to want to use either a liquid, an aerosol, or a dust; all of which could cause disaster with your frogs.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I did a tear down. To be honest, I like this set-up much better. I scooped the substrate out by hand, and shook off all the leaves,etc. There are about 5(maybe more) ants still crawling inside. Should I ignore them, or try to kill them? The frogs are behaving normal, so I don't think they are stressing(at least not now...) I just don't want the ants to return en mass! Any thoughts?

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I had an ant problem just like what you are describing, many years ago. I followed the trail and found their home. I boiled several large pots of water and poured it into their home. There were a few left the next day so I poured a couple more in. That was the end of them with no worries about any pesticides.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

JBear, I wouldn't worry about a handful of ants. They'll be a treat for the frogs. 

Doug, I always like hearing a pest story that ends with no pesticides. Good job. If only every case were so easy to identify the nest.

Jbear, you mentioned ant horror stories, let me share with you the worst ant infestation I've seen in my nearly 13 years of dealing with pests.

I was asked to investigate this problem after several other techs had not been successful.

It was medium sized brick house with basement. As I came to the porch, I could already see a trail of ants across the foundation. I was greeted by the client and taken into a finished basement, there there was a long trail of ants coming down from a window, trailing across the floor, and into a laundry room. They were attacking a half empty dog food bag. 

Now I typically do a full inspection of the situation before deciding on any treatment, chemical or otherwise, so I started to track back the ants. The trail went outside the house, completely circled the perimeter, and trailed about 50 feet out to an older garage. The ants were circling the entire perimeter of the garage, but also there were 3-4 trails leading up the sides of the garage. inside, I could then see them trailing back down into the garage. Bird seed bags were being foraged upon inside. Back outside of the garage, they were also trailing up an oak tree and across the lawn into a neighbors yard. Also, this entire trail was thick, multiple ants wide and fully continuous the entire route. 

Did I find the nest? You bet I did. It was in some staked firewood on the backside of the garage. Loaded with multiple queens and brood. 

Oh, these were odorous house ants.

Now for the treatment. Your average tech probably would have blasted the place with liquid and hoped for the best. Not me. I strategically placed ant bait at various locations throughout the entire trail concentrating the bait closer to the nest and nothing at the house. Then I used a conservative amount of non-repellant liquid around the colony itself and the garage. I wanted to cut off the ants in the house immediately, so I used a repellant liquid along the house foundation, broke out my backpack vacuum, and sucked up the ants in the house and along the foundation. 

I told the client that I'd be back in a few days to check on the progress. When i returned, there were no ants in/near the house. The colony was still intact and in the same place (a good sign, as they hadn't been disturbed enough to relocate. Meaning the non-repellants were working). I found a ton of dead ants too. I decided against a second treatment at the time, and came back after a few more days. There was a significant reduction in the population, so I did some more baiting. Within two weeks from my first visit, the ants were gone, not moved to a different location, but dead. I tracked the account for a few years and they didn't have any further ant problems, at least until I left the company. 

How about that for a horror story?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just to add a comment to the thread.. Not all ants are accepted by the frogs as food.. (there are actually quite a few they don't eat). It is incorrect for people to assume right off the bat that the frogs will (or do) eat the specific ants that people see in thier houses.. a lot of the common ants that are found inside a house are refused by the frogs (for example, pharoah ants...). 

JBear, if you are seeing ants make sure to keep an eye on your cultures..some ants like pharoah ants will invade your cultures ( including fruit fly cultures). 

Ed


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

Ed said:


> Just to add a comment to the thread.. Not all ants are accepted by the frogs as food.. (there are actually quite a few they don't eat). It is incorrect for people to assume right off the bat that the frogs will (or do) eat the specific ants that people see in thier houses.. a lot of the common ants that are found inside a house are refused by the frogs (for example, pharoah ants...).Ed


I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info. Do you happen to know other species that aren't accepted?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think it may be better to concentrate on the ones that are known to be accepted.. most of this is anecdotal but a number of small myrmecines are known to be readily taken (for example _Tetramorium caespitum_, and oddly enough fire ants..(but people should keep in mind that dumping a bunch of angry ants into the tank is a good recipe for disaster)). While 
oddly enough pharaoh ants (_Monomorium pharaonis_) and some close relatives are not taken. 

There are also reports of _Tapinoma melanocephalum _(ghost ants) being eaten... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

It's nice to hear advice regarding true integrated pest management. I worked as the sole employee of a small local pest control company during college. Working on commission, it served me well to do things right the first time, and this usually meant more than just spraying some poison around.

Slow-acting baits always seemed like the best way to really take down a nest.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm a firm believer that proper IPM is the best method for controlling pests. Unfortunately, for the five years I worked as a pest control tech, I had to play the game and follow what my companies policies were. Typically that involved preventive applications. I made the best effort I could to skirt that issue, but it was difficult, especially when I had clients that thought they were paying by the ounce instead of for a service. 

Now that I'm on the other end, working on the regulatory/consulting side, I do not condone preventive applications of insecticides. Sure, they have their place, but you need a target pest onsite and non-chemical approaches must be made first.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Hear Hear!

(sorry to high jack, JBear)!


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

Broseph said:


> Hear Hear!
> 
> (sorry to high jack, JBear)!


Much better than the dreaded low jack.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

BethInAK said:


> Much better than the dreaded low jack.



Dreaded lojack? Have you been trying to steal cars? I thought lojack was supposed to be a good thing.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Now we're REALLY off on a tangent!


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

xm41907 said:


> I'm a firm believer that proper IPM is the best method for controlling pests. Unfortunately, for the five years I worked as a pest control tech, I had to play the game and follow what my companies policies were. Typically that involved preventive applications. I made the best effort I could to skirt that issue, but it was difficult, especially when I had clients that thought they were paying by the ounce instead of for a service.
> 
> Now that I'm on the other end, working on the regulatory/consulting side, I do not condone preventive applications of insecticides. Sure, they have their place, but you need a target pest onsite and non-chemical approaches must be made first.


I find this thread really interesting (both ant and pest control-wise) and I want to know more but the terminology is throwing me off...

Can you explain what IPM is? What game was the pest control company trying to play?


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

Sure thing. Integrated Pest Management (IPM), is a management method for controlling pests. There are many differing definitions for it, but I like to keep it simple...

IPM is using appropriate pest management tactics with the least impact on the environment to effectively manage a pest.

There are different methods for controlling could be mechanical (stepping on a bug), physical (blocking them from entering), cultural (getting people keep the door closed), biological (using one life form to eat or destroy another), and lastly, chemical control (pesticides). 

Every situation is different, but in nearly all situations, non-chemical control tactics can reduce the need for chemicals. 



The game I'm referring to is that pest control companies are out to make money. The only way they can do this is to try and sell the need for routine servicing. That typically involves preventive applications of pesticides to control potential pests. Companies want their techs applying something so that the customer feels secure with their service. If I was to go into your home, do a through inspection, tell you some key areas that need to be sealed, and some cultural things you should do, such as trim hedges from the building, and then not put down anything. It's likely you wouldn't feel the need to keep paying me to come out on a monthly to quarterly basis. 

If you've got any further questions, feel free to let me know. We are off the original topic so maybe we should start a new one, or just PM.


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