# Thoughts on tank design



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Thoughts on tank design 

Let me first start by saying, I'm no expert on this. Some other recent threads have had me thinking about tank design (use of vertical space (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356338 and plants versus wood use https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356178

I wanted to share a few thoughts that I have on tank design from my observations of my frogs over the last year. 

1. Maximizing the useful space in the tank
2. Lighting
3. Object placement
4. Leaf litter


First thought: maximizing the useful space in a tank

Since frogs aren't like fish and don't use "empty" space I try to find ways to make the empty space more usable. I have done this through a couple of different ways.

One way is to use wood to create additional levels in the tank so that there's extra useable "floorspace" elevated in the tank, this can be through ledges on the sides, mezzanine-style levels, or a combination of the two.
This is a 36x18x18" tank with a semi-second story built in with cork bark.








This is an 18x18x24" with a ledge and a second story built out of cork bark:









Another way is to use plants to create this space (particularly useful for Ranitomeya species, in my experience). In my Ranitomeya sirensis tank I have setup bromeliads all along one vertical wall, the frogs use these as their beds at night, as perches for the males to call, as resting areas and as hopping off points to go to other places in the tank. This same approach can be done with other plants that have leaves that will stick out into the negative space, pothos plants are useful for this if trained to grow along the wall.

In this vein of maximizing useful space, there are things that many people do in building their tanks that are, primarily, using up the useful space. Examples: waterfalls, ponds and other water features, moss on most of the horizontal surfaces, 

These types of design elements detract from the useful space available to the frogs. Personally, I avoid these. 

Well placed ledges can also produce shadowy areas that are, in my experience, frog havens. 

Thought 2: lighting

I have found much more active outgoing behaviour from what are regarded as fairly shy frogs (Ranitomeya sirensis, Dendrobates auratus "microspot", Ranitomeya amazonica "Iquitos") by using less bright lights. Particularly for the R. sirensis, I switched to a much dimmer light and the change in behaviour was very apparent. They went from shy frogs that hid in their bromeliads all day, to frogs that are active and explore and forage for food most of the day. 

There's a drawback to dimmer lights, which is less plant growth, so you'll need to choose plants that will do ok in low light, pothos do well in this condition for me. 
Putting plants that need more light higher up and closer to the lights is also a great strategy (and creates wonderful shadows for the frogs!) 

This isn't saying to use really dim lights, more just saying that there's a trade-off, in my experience, between light intensity and frog activity levels (which I use as a proxy for frog happiness / comfort). 

Thought 3: object placement

Ever found that perfect piece of cork or other wood to make a great "centerpiece" for your tank, and build it and then have the frogs sit on the other side of the piece so you can see the wood but not the frogs? Ya, me too. When I build a tank I design the tank with the lights farther towards the back of the tank than the front, creating an area in shadows nearer the front. You can accomplish this with wood, with broad-leafed plants, with haphazardly thrown in leaf litter, all designed to present the frogs with a shaded area that's in prime viewing position for you. All of these pictures were taken directly through the front door of the terrariums. (I'm not a great photographer sorry)


















Placing the lights farther towards the back than the front sets up a natural shadow situation giving the frogs the sense of security while still being visible. 

This is counterintuitive for most people who want to light up the portions of the plants that are visible from the front of the tank, so that the plants "pop", same for pieces of wood, the focus tends to be on lighting up the objects in the tank. 

This combined with lighting, can create great shadowy spots on the ground level (planted won't grow there well usually) where a thick layer of leaf litter will give the frogs a great space to frolic and be active while feeling secure.


Thought 4: leaf litter

The importance of leaf litter cannot be understated. Leaf litter is, all at the same time: food source for the cleanup crew, hiding area/refuge for frogs (and cleanup crew), and a foraging/food location for frogs. 

For leaf litter, I'm a fan of magnolia leaves, the natural curl in the leaves creates crevices that smaller frogs will see as potential getaway places and as small ground-level perches. Other leaves like oak, live oak, etc. also work well as leaf litter too, but most can't replicate the curl found in magnolia. 

Anyways, those are my thoughts on tank design. Happy to hear people's input and thoughts. I'd love this to be an evolving thread.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Excellent ideas with the lighting.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Exciting post of talented work, excellently described. 

I could only suggest that you copy paste to the Blog section, for permanent reader accessibility.


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## DarciD (May 23, 2020)

This is a timely post because i was just about to ask about thoughts on light units. I think it’s fitting to include it as part of a design post. 

I’m just about ready to install my backgrounds and terrain in my mossy build and have been trying to decide on my light. I was planning to reuse my finnex planted light(I know if I look hard enough I’ll find it’s box somewhere) but I was afraid it wouldn’t be bright enough so I thought hmm.. bright must be better! My mossies are nocturnal so I’m not so sure how much it’s going to really matter but I’d have gone the brighter is better route too. 

What are you’re thoughts on doing a large part of the hardscape design with the light actually in place and on? I think that might help me better to look at tank as almost a snap shot of the rainforest floor. I saw a post earlier where the way the wood was arranged in an enclosure had it looking as though it could have easily extended beyond the container’s confines. 

I wish I had jumped into the posts earlier, I’ve learned quite a lot the last couple of days that I could definitely have applied to this tank even though it’s for tree frogs.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

DarciD said:


> This is a timely post because i was just about to ask about thoughts on light units. I think it’s fitting to include it as part of a design post.
> 
> I’m just about ready to install my backgrounds and terrain in my mossy build and have been trying to decide on my light. I was planning to reuse my finnex planted light(I know if I look hard enough I’ll find it’s box somewhere) but I was afraid it wouldn’t be bright enough so I thought hmm.. bright must be better! My mossies are nocturnal so I’m not so sure how much it’s going to really matter but I’d have gone the brighter is better route too.
> 
> ...


Having the lights on and in place is a good way to see how the hardscape is going to look before you "permanently" place it. 

What I did for my last build was to place books and containers in the tank top simulate ground level and then added the hardscape elements on so I could see, with it standing up, what it would look like.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

These are good thoughts, fishingguy! Thanks for putting them together. Here are some brief thoughts on your points.

1) In terms of maximizing space, it's interesting that I think the same way but arrive at it differently from an aesthetic standpoint. Where I have seen you focus on ledges, I think more in terms of ramps and a gradient of vertical space. I try to avoid pure vertical, but I find diagonal to be more interesting visually than horizontal space. For me, it's also easier to avoid harsh shadows with diagonal pieces of wood than with flat spaces. This is just is completely personal preference, though, and your tanks look great. 

2) I love your thoughts about lighting. The bright vs. dim perspective is great and I agree with the positioning idea, too. The latter is something that makes me re-think bar-style lighting vs. panels. You have a lot more flexibility in how you move a bar back and forward than you do with a space-filling panel. Of course, you don't have to move a panel as much to avoid shadows/emphasize specific areas, either.

3) I don't do nearly enough with miscellaneous pods and other things in my leaf litter. I need to hold back some money to buy some of that stuff next time I think of it 

4) Couldn't agree more with the leaf litter comments. The longer I keep tanks, the less I worry about the bottom layer in terms of planting and decorating because I just leave it mostly for leaf litter. The frogs prefer it and I prefer to work on the epiphytic plant locations rather than ground cover, anyway.

Keep up the good work and thanks for the thread!

Mark


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Thanks for the comments, Mark.



Encyclia said:


> These are good thoughts, fishingguy! Thanks for putting them together. Here are some brief thoughts on your points.
> 
> 1) In terms of maximizing space, it's interesting that I think the same way but arrive at it differently from an aesthetic standpoint. Where I have seen you focus on ledges, I think more in terms of ramps and a gradient of vertical space. I try to avoid pure vertical, but I find diagonal to be more interesting visually than horizontal space. For me, it's also easier to avoid harsh shadows with diagonal pieces of wood than with flat spaces. This is just is completely personal preference, though, and your tanks look great.


I really like to have ledges that have "ramps" leading up to them, best of both worlds 



> 3) I don't do nearly enough with miscellaneous pods and other things in my leaf litter. I need to hold back some money to buy some of that stuff next time I think of it


Personally, I love the look of pods and such in the bottom of the tank. Bell cups, seru pods, and broken coconuts are my favorites. I've seen most of the frogs exploring these little treasures in the tanks. They also are frequently places that fruit flies will congregate and make a fun feeding/watching spot.


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## DarciD (May 23, 2020)

Man, I just propped up my background and some hardscape outside the tank (I’ve got underwater background curing inside) and definitely have two super shady spots. Like, just about complete shade. 

I’m even more glad for this post now because all is not completely lost but it definitely needs retooling. Even for my nocturnal tree frogs. I don’t think I’ll be able to grow much there. Except maybe my pothos. 

I’ve got lots of leaf litter in the plans though so I least I got that right. 🤦🏼


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

DarciD said:


> Man, I just propped up my background and some hardscape outside the tank (I’ve got underwater background curing inside) and definitely have two super shady spots. Like, just about complete shade.
> 
> I’m even more glad for this post now because all is not completely lost but it definitely needs retooling. Even for my nocturnal tree frogs. I don’t think I’ll be able to grow much there. Except maybe my pothos.
> 
> I’ve got lots of leaf litter in the plans though so I least I got that right. 🤦🏼


Ground with just leaf litter is a frog play space , I don't try to cover the ground with plants.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

DarciD said:


> Man, I just propped up my background and some hardscape outside the tank (I’ve got underwater background curing inside) and definitely have two super shady spots. Like, just about complete shade.
> 
> I’m even more glad for this post now because all is not completely lost but it definitely needs retooling. Even for my nocturnal tree frogs. I don’t think I’ll be able to grow much there. Except maybe my pothos.
> 
> I’ve got lots of leaf litter in the plans though so I least I got that right. 🤦🏼


I'd be pretty cautious about applying design tips for dart frog vivs to vivs for very different animals -- nothing specific to this current discussion, but just a general precaution. Much of the advice people give here is so useful because it is specifically directed to Dendrobatid care.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Couldn't agree more with the leaf litter comments. The longer I keep tanks, the less I worry about the bottom layer in terms of planting and decorating because I just leave it mostly for leaf litter.


Hear ye, hear ye: *THAT up there.*



> I'd be pretty cautious about applying design tips for dart frog vivs to vivs for very different animals -- nothing specific to this current discussion, but just a general precaution. Much of the advice people give here is so useful because it is specifically directed to Dendrobatid care.


Good point, and (not "but"), a judicious keeper of "other stuff" ought to be able to discriminate between helpful and useless. E.g., "_ah jeez - just forget planting the ground stratum_" works great for me. It's a cool shady place where, if I see any snakes down there in the leaves, I know either 1) the room is starting to run a little warm, or 2) those particular vivs are running quite dry. I can see that at a glance. Quite handy.

@FG1-5: nice thread, thanks for it!


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## DarciD (May 23, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> DarciD said:
> 
> 
> > Man, I just propped up my background and some hardscape outside the tank (I’ve got underwater background curing inside) and definitely have two super shady spots. Like, just about complete shade.
> ...


Oh, definitely not trying to cover it up. I’ve only got.... seven plant species and ten individual plants.... and some moss. A little different build since it’s for semi aquatic tree frogs and I want them to have nice leaves to use if they wish. 

Lots of leaf litter. Some extra chunks of bark. They should have enough hiding spots. Plus the water as they get older. 

I’ve been working on this for two months already. 😳


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## DarciD (May 23, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> DarciD said:
> 
> 
> > Man, I just propped up my background and some hardscape outside the tank (I’ve got underwater background curing inside) and definitely have two super shady spots. Like, just about complete shade.
> ...


Ehhh... I’m not too bad at picking out the information I need that’s broadly applicable to frogs, not just dart frogs. 

I need the leaf litter for my isopods and to help leach more tannins into my water. They’ll get moss too since... mossy frogs and I’m using it to block some splash because I did build a small waterfall. 

The lighting was big for me though. In my fourth (I’m currently on the fifth) incarnation of my waterfall I had two entire corners completely shaded. Now, being that my frogs are nocturnal, I’m not too, too worried about the lighting for them (I do want to figure something out for night viewing that won’t affect them). However, I had a completely shaded out area and without having taken that into consideration, I simply lucked out that I have a couple of ferns that will be happy in that corner.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Your most important, longterm challenge is staving off the pathogenic potentials of decomposing free range drowned crickets, worms etc, along with other wastes. 

Usually, over time these impacts surpass the abilities of the nitrogen cycle in integrated Water Features, which in reality are very small somewhat weakly mechanic'd 'aquariums' in-viv.

For amphibians that visit water frequently - a small nitrogen cycled pond does not bear a gold seal of pathogen prevention. Only relaced water does.


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## DarciD (May 23, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Your most important, longterm challenge is staving off the pathogenic potentials of decomposing free range drowned crickets, worms etc, along with other wastes.
> 
> Usually, over time these impacts surpass the abilities of the nitrogen cycle in integrated Water Features, which in reality are very small somewhat weakly mechanic'd 'aquariums' in-viv.
> 
> For amphibians that visit water frequently - a small nitrogen cycled pond does not bear a gold seal of pathogen prevention. Only relaced water does.


What does “weakly mechanic’d” entail?

I actually think I’m going to be a bit over filtered for the water characteristics I (and the frogs) want. I’ve got about 19-20 gallons with a classic eheim 2215 canister filter serving dual purpose- filter and pump. 

Don’t water changes have to happen in every cycled tank with water? I mean, how else do you get rid of nitrates?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I did it by full water replacements. A completely different modality, that came about through mortality, disease, lifespan and situ comparisons over a period of time reveal.

Im not at all trying to discourage you. I kind of feel a vibe where this discussion could go so all I really want to do is wish you success.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Every 12 to 24 hours. Its how it is done sometimes. Just sayin.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> I actually think I’m going to be a bit over filtered for the water characteristics I (and the frogs) want. I’ve got about 19-20 gallons with a classic eheim 2215 canister filter serving dual purpose- filter and pump.
> 
> Don’t water changes have to happen in every cycled tank with water? I mean, how else do you get rid of nitrates?


That's a nice volume of water. And quite a canister to move and clean it. (I've put gated wyes on the canister outlet in such situations, and directed much of the flow back into the sump instead of having a raging cascade; it just gets filtered again.) It seems like you could satisfy just about any cleanliness concerns with it (e.g., with a graduated series of filter-media canisters, terminating in a UV sterilizer, on the line leading to the cascade). How many frogs? These are pretty sizeable frogs, right? Maybe like a barking treefrog?

And yes, (a non-frog, non-fish, possibly completely screwed-up here guy says...) a completely closed loop is a practical impossibility. i suppose with nitrogen-cycle-directed system elements like a trickle filter and an aquaponics bed of, I dunno, water hyacinth or something, you could just replace water lost to ET. But normally, anyone would do regular partial water changes.

I guess I'm not seeing quite why KMC has issues with you specifically - I would think your particulars are quite diverged from "the norm" and what could be objectionable - pollutant and pathogen buildup, with predictable health concerns. But again - I'm not an aquatic keeper, just looking in from the outside so to speak.

Anyway - all this to also say, good luck!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Oh no, my I dont have issue. Sometimes it seems Im stuck between wriying out insufferably long posts, or being insufferably brief and robotic. Sorry.

It _is_ a nice amount of water. Unlike fishes however I have known laurels to be rested on, as if bodies of water for water visiting frogs are the same in properties and management as fish. But its not. The putrification of whole foods, urates and sloughed exuv is rich fodder and the aggregate and pull of vigorous filtration can be a catch 22 stressor.

Full water replacements are 'prophylactic' and easy done when operating on a cement floor with a service area and faucet. I get that. Hundreds of gallons are replaced daily in large water feature housing taxa. Animal agriculture, husbandry, uses alot of water.

Im not saying to replace every day for Darci's situ. But I do know that animals kept in water bodied environments have a high incidence of infection and abbreviated lifespan.

I am convinced that the putrification of whole food in the water is of significant blame. 

I have cared for mossy frogs but have not bred them. They did not enjoy the kind of space Darci is providing them.They were vibrant and meaty without any attempt at making the water acidic. They were kept in what I called a grotto style environment. 

A long pair of forceps and a brine net and a hand siphon for quickies can be helpful tools. 

When you keep water visiting frogs the enjoyable complacency that comes with keeping and watching fish isnt really available. More diligence is required. If one is to find anything useful in my share, it would be to be scrupulous in not allowing whole food items to go unnoticed in the water.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> be scrupulous in not allowing whole food items to go unnoticed in the water


God, I can smell it from here! Ha ha.

Yeah, I gotcha now.

What did you mean about your mossies "not enjoying the kind of space.."? You mean qualitative? Or they like smaller space? Sorry, lost the plot there.

thanks!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Unattractively partitioned 20 L. 60/40 roughly terra to aquatic. Same ol guy i used for pixis and many baby box turtles and barely legal couras. It was what I had, but I know they were healthy and content. I just followed the morphology. 

Side sentimentality note if I saw that tank today I know I would get choked up.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Many big stones protruding out of the surface. Same type stones in terra area. No exposed sub, no filtration. 

I liked and still do to use peat because of its excellent stone and cork mooring qualities. Water was replaced unobtrusively Daily, along with other Daily categorized AM chores in that chore chunk. Water was declorinated per amquel or prime, no additions.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Bringing this quote from pumilo from another thread in, since it applies to this thread's topic as well. 





Pumilo said:


> Leaf litter also supplies food to your springtails and isopods, allowing a healthy "backbone" to be built into your system.
> 
> As far as hiding in the leaf litter, most newbies are thinking that their frogs are already too shy, and if I add more leaf litter, I'll never see them again. In fact, the opposite is true. If your frogs constantly hide, they may well be simply terrified to come out in the open. A frog gains confidence when he is sure he can escape predators. Most dart frogs will be happiest, and most visible, when they feel that safety and full cover, are within one or two hops.
> 
> ...


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Another part of tank design that I've been thinking about: feeding areas. 

In my tanks I design a fair size portion of the tank to be the designated feeding area. In this area I don't put plants, but have wood/seeds/pods adjacent to the area. 

My purpose for this has a few objectives: 1) fairly clear area allowing the frogs a space to hunt / forage
2) an easy place for me to place the fruit flies
3) in my experience, it promotes foraging and hunting behaviour, rather than "waiting at the food trough" behaviour (hunting and foraging being behaviours I would rather see in my frogs versus them waiting for a swarm of flies to be dumped on their plates)
4) the wood structures and seed pods provide areas for the flies to climb, promoting the behaviour identified in point 3 from the frogs (I watched one of my frogs follow a fly up and down a piece of coco hut, walking behind it, stalking the fly before finally catching and eating it. I wish I had caught it on video, it was great to watch)

Some examples (I've circled the areas I mean):


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Fishingguy, great thread. The thoughts about shade and lighting are especially useful - haven't seen it put like that elsewhere before and it makes perfect sense. (also enjoy all the contributions about leaf litter. I'm looking forward to landscaping my viv, but I'll do it mostly in the air, not on the floor!)

What kind of frog is in the picture right under "thought 3" in your first post - the one that shades from minty at the back to orange on the head, with his back to us? He's gorgeous!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

dwllama said:


> Fishingguy, great thread. The thoughts about shade and lighting are especially useful - haven't seen it put like that elsewhere before and it makes perfect sense. (also enjoy all the contributions about leaf litter. I'm looking forward to landscaping my viv, but I'll do it mostly in the air, not on the floor!)
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of frog is in the picture right under "thought 3" in your first post - the one that shades from minty at the back to orange on the head, with his back to us? He's gorgeous!


Thanks!

That is a Ranitomeya sirensis "Rio Pachitea yellow"


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

Ah nice, a search on their name lead me to the thread about their tank setup, too  lovely little guys and way smaller than I thought!


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