# earthworm addition



## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

Did some searches on the board about earthworm additions to the vivarium. The viv I am wanting to introduce the earthworms too has a clay based substrate with a layer of leaf litter on top. I want the worms to aerate the soil and hope that the tunnels they leave will double as living space for the isopods and springtails I have in the viv.

Through my searches i've concluded that the earthworm thing will probably work great as long as the substrate is inorganic.. but the one thing I couldn't find information on was the best type of earthworm to add. Does anyone have any experience with this?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

What type of Drainage Layer are you planning on? 

I Use earthworms in all my tanks, however I do not have false bottoms in any of my Tanks. If you use a False Bottom you might find they might become trapped under it and die under it.

Keep in mind that earthworms can drown if the soil becomes saturated.

I just go flip the Compost over the find ones out of my yard.


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

The viv is already set up and established.. my clay substrate has just congealed a bit more than I would have wanted. I have an under the tank space where there is water. that water drops out into a sump under the tank where it is cleaned and put back into the space under all the substrate so it can circulate. I have the substrate raised above this layer by means of pvc pipe and eggcrate. fiberglass screen covers that and then there is an inch to 1.5 inches of infield conditioner, then a good 4-5 inchs of clay substrate with 2 inchs of leaf litter above that. Between the infield conditioner and water is a good half inch air space for the substrate to drain completely. I don't see the worms being able to get past the infield conditioner.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

You would be surprised the space the can squeeze through.

Still I think as long as you feel they can not escape the layer they would be a good edition as they do help keep the soil aerated and fertilize the plants and break down plant materials.


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

Have you noticed any improvements with other soil microfauna with the addition of the worms? I am hoping they can restore the air spaces in the clay soil to increase refuge for other microfauna


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Honestly I never checked that. I just know plants do better with them in there than without.


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

so wild collected worms are good, anyone tried any store bought ones?


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

When it is Winter and I start a new Tank I got to a Bait shop and buy a few Dozen Worms...Cheaper than a Petstore


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm glad I saw this thread. I was thinking about this as well. One thing though, aren't earthworms notorious for being hosts to parasites?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Problem is when they die they make quite a mess in the soi and the water that comes from the tank smells REALLY bad.

Hey ryan, next time your over ill drain a tank with them in it and then you can decide if you want them


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

thedude said:


> Problem is when they die they make quite a mess in the soi and the water that comes from the tank smells REALLY bad.
> 
> Hey ryan, next time your over ill drain a tank with them in it and then you can decide if you want them


Ha, sweet, thanks Adam. I wonder if a smaller worm that does something similar to earthworms is available?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Don't use Nightcrawlers. They require cooler temperatures and deeper substrates.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

I don't have saturated soils and have no need to drain water....No smell


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I've never had any problems with smell, nor have I ever seen dead ones under the false bottoms (which I use on all my tanks). They will break the leaf litter down a bit more quickly, but with a healthy microfaunal population, that's going to happen anyway. 

My biggest beef with worms in the tank (I just dig them up out of the yard) is the juveniles that migrate up into the wood pieces I use, and some of them like black cottonwood tend to be softer which allows the worms to burrow into them and create bits of detritus and break the wood down faster. But "faster" is a relative term since it's still a really slow process.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fleshfrombone said:


> Ha, sweet, thanks Adam. I wonder if a smaller worm that does something similar to earthworms is available?


African Nightcrawlers... they prefer warmer temperature but this is also a species that may not burrow as deeply. 

Ed


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

You're my hero Ed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fleshfrombone said:


> You're my hero Ed.


 
For being cranky, older and a wealth of useless information?? 

Ed


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

For being Johnny on the spot for just about any question I have.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Ed said:


> For being cranky, older and a wealth of useless information??
> 
> Ed


I doubt anyone on this forum would find information that you post to be useless.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> African Nightcrawlers... they prefer warmer temperature but this is also a species that may not burrow as deeply.
> 
> Ed


Wouldn't those small red wigglers, that they generally use for composting, also work well?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

They have one of the fastest reproductive rates of any worm...hence why they work so well in compost piles. I think they could possibly get out of control in a vivarium. However, limited nutrients may inhibit that. Overall, though, they are a little too active for my taste: would break down the leaf litter and organics on top even more quickly. And, if I remember correctly, there might be some toxins involved in their chemistry...


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

skylsdale said:


> They have one of the fastest reproductive rates of any worm...hence why they work so well in compost piles. I think they could possibly get out of control in a vivarium. However, limited nutrients may inhibit that. Overall, though, they are a little too active for my taste: would break down the leaf litter and organics on top even more quickly. And, if I remember correctly, there might be some toxins involved in their chemistry...


I've used them in my tanks for years with no noticeable problems. They never got out of control, and most of my deaths can be attributed to escapes, a few froglets that failed to thrive, the ice storm and a brown out...I've only ever had adult frogs just die out of the blue once really...2 yellow sips and I think that might have been from a euphorbia plant cutting or some other toxin because both frogs died within days of each other. Oh and 1 darklands female but that was within a week of being shipped to me, and old male and replacement female lived in same tank for 2 years or so. Basically I've never had any issues that I would even begin to suspect the worms were the cause of, other then maybe bringing a pathogen in with them. But Ed has raised some toxicity issues for some species in a past thread. But I've never seen darts attempt to eat them, and I've fed them to several newt species with no ill effects also.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

thedude said:


> Problem is when they die they make quite a mess in the soi and the water that comes from the tank smells REALLY bad.
> 
> Hey ryan, next time your over ill drain a tank with them in it and then you can decide if you want them


I've never noticed this myself between vivs seeded with worms and those that I never got around to it, though I've had smelly water in both but I think that is more likely from anaerobic bacteria, which I believe thrive in a moist, dark, low oxygen environment like in viv substrate and/or under a false bottom...They are the usual culprits when it comes to "stinky water"...though decomposing worms may add to the effect some. I had some soil I was using to pot plants do the same thing, much worse then usual recently...no worms in it. Just not confident the 2 things are all that related.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> I've used them in my tanks for years with no noticeable problems. They never got out of control, and most of my deaths can be attributed to escapes, a few froglets that failed to thrive, the ice storm and a brown out...I've only ever had adult frogs just die out of the blue once really...2 yellow sips and I think that might have been from a euphorbia plant cutting or some other toxin because both frogs died within days of each other. Oh and 1 darklands female but that was within a week of being shipped to me, and old male and replacement female lived in same tank for 2 years or so. Basically I've never had any issues that I would even begin to suspect the worms were the cause of, other then maybe bringing a pathogen in with them. But Ed has raised some toxicity issues for some species in a past thread. But I've never seen darts attempt to eat them, and I've fed them to several newt species with no ill effects also.


 
Hi Dave,

For some reason, Eisenia foetida don't seem to kill caudates but there are reports of problems with other animals (both anecdotally and in the literature). 
The secretions are known to kill tadpoles and cause problems with some anurans, you may not have seen your frogs eat them because they may have learned not to by exposure to a lower dose of the secretions. 

I will not use red worms in tanks as I have had them develop into high populations that made it a problem to keep any level of leaf litter in the tanks (and there is also the possible issue with toxicity). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> I've never noticed this myself between vivs seeded with worms and those that I never got around to it, though I've had smelly water in both but I think that is more likely from anaerobic bacteria, which I believe thrive in a moist, dark, low oxygen environment like in viv substrate and/or under a false bottom...They are the usual culprits when it comes to "stinky water"...though decomposing worms may add to the effect some. I had some soil I was using to pot plants do the same thing, much worse then usual recently...no worms in it. Just not confident the 2 things are all that related.


Not aimed at you Dave, just trying to build on the concept. 

Unless you have a small volume and/or added a lot of worms to the enclosure, a properly functioning substrate should really cause any decomposition to occur rapidly enough that you don't smell it. If the substrate is too wet or compacted, and/or the worm(s) were trapped at the surface of the media, then you would smell them as they decomposed as the substrate isn't functioning properly. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> For some reason, Eisenia foetida don't seem to kill caudates but there are reports of problems with other animals (both anecdotally and in the literature).
> The secretions are known to kill tadpoles and cause problems with some anurans, you may not have seen your frogs eat them because they may have learned not to by exposure to a lower dose of the secretions.
> ...


Ha! ...tricked you into going over it again  But actually I think you mentioned both the tadpole and caudate points last time, and I totally forgot so apparently I needed a refresher myself


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Not aimed at you Dave, just trying to build on the concept.
> 
> Unless you have a small volume and/or added a lot of worms to the enclosure, a properly functioning substrate should really cause any decomposition to occur rapidly enough that you don't smell it. If the substrate is too wet or compacted, and/or the worm(s) were trapped at the surface of the media, then you would smell them as they decomposed as the substrate isn't functioning properly.
> 
> Ed


Ya, just to add a little to that...When I seed a tank with worms I don't usually put in more then half a dozen, unless it is a really large tank. So dumping a whole container of them in a smaller viv may be a bad idea, and contribute to some of the issues discussed. 

Also while I think "Canadian night crawlers" may still be alive in my vivs, the red wigglers seem to be the ones that do best and reproduce naturally for years if not being attacked by newts and whatnot  Seems like thats what I find when ever I dig around in a viv, but to be fair I have seeded with those way more often then I have night crawlers.


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

Ed said:


> African Nightcrawlers... they prefer warmer temperature but this is also a species that may not burrow as deeply.
> 
> Ed


So the African Nightcrawlers should function fine in the vivarium environment? Has anyone seeded their tanks with these?

Id also like to add this snipet I found on the African Nightcrawlers (E. eugeniae), all the ° are meant to be degrees symbols, stating the experiment was run at 15, 20, 25 and 30 degrees C. 25 degrees C seems to be optimal.

The growth and reproduction of Eudrilus eugeniae (Kinberg) in cattle waste solids was studied by growing groups of 1, 2, 4, 8 or 16 small earthworms in 100 g of waste in small containers in incubators at 15°, 20°, 25° and 30°C. Earthworms were weighed weekly and the numbers of cocoons produced per week assessed. Fecundity, growth, maturation and biomass production were all significantly greater at 25°C than 15°, 20° or 30°. The growth of individual earthworms increased the lower the population density, but the greatest overall earthworm biomass production occurred at the highest population density. The highest ratio of conversion from organic waste to earthworm biomass (dry weight) was 10:1. Cocoon production, the times for cocoons to hatch, the percentage hatch and the number of earthworms hatching per cocoon, at each temperature were recorded. The rates of growth of hatchlings at these temperatures was measured. The greatest number of coccons per week and the number of hatchlings per cocoon were obtained at 25°C. Cocoons of E. eugeniae hatched in only 12 days at 25°C, the earthworms at these temperatures reached sexual maturity in as little as 35 days after hatching and gained weight at maximum rate of 280 mg per wee


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Many species of earthworms are bio-luminescent btw. If anyone finds some of these that are viv suitable please hook me up  (some are in the US I believe)


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