# A few questions



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

After reading all the bickering, ranting, bullying, and disrespect here, I have a few questions............

1. When someone says You can't keep frogs in a terrarium with others that they don't come into contact with in the wild--What frogs do captive born frogs born and raised in a terrarium come into contact with in the wild? 

2. If the reason we MUST keep the bloodlines pure and the morphs seperate is so these frogs don't disappear from the hobby, Why are Benedicta like $300 and one Tinc $250 but another only $40? Shouldn't they all be the same since we just want to get enough of them into the hobby to sustain them? 

3. If only 25 of the latest greatest pumilio come into the hobby and we MUST keep this line seperate from any other import, Since all stock will come from this same group, are we not line breeding this group? 

4. Do you agree with every piece of advise you are given here? 


Please, no hybrid, or mixing debate here. These are serious questions.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

1) The rationale behind this reasoning is dependant on following nature's model for keeping locales separate, or of nature's allowing natural hybrids on the same token, not that one day the viv subjects would be mixed with nature. 
It's an issue related to genetic viability. Hybrids often produce sterility, and that is not something we want passed on, even if the offspring would not look significantly different from the original species.

2) Many believe that tiering prices is simply part of a healthy market system. If you _reaally_ want the frog, you will pay more for it and likely care for it better than a frog that is cheaper. Monetary tags are inextricable from value in many people's minds (perhaps not yours and mine, but probably most). This may help preserve the more rare species that do not readily breed. On the other hand, some suggest this increases the risk of smuggling...and this is another round-about, never-ending argumentation loop...

3) Guess so.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

2) There are frogs that a single pair could plausibly produce 100 or more froglets in a year if you really chose to work them. There are others like Escudo that may only produce a few froglets in a year. It baffles me that you think they should cost the same. Let alone the laws of supply and demand. What about somebody putting a couple thousand dollars into a small group of benedicta from Understory? He doesn't have a right to recoup his expenses? Maybe even bring in some extra money to support his expensive hobby? Is it fair to Understory to immediately try to undercut him so he cannot recoup his expenses on the long and expensive process of bringing these frogs to us legally when otherwise they may never be seen in the hobby? Time has already brought the price from $450 dollars down to $300 and more time will bring it down more. In the meantime, if you want a cheap frog, buy a cheap frog and lay off the breeders that are working towards eventually making them more affordable. 
You know Azureus used to run $500 each and now they are down to like $35. It is the breeders who brought this price down over time.

3) Recently some frogs have come in being called Bri-Bri. Yet, they are from a different country than the original Bri-Bri. They are a different frog that happens to look similar. This is why localities and import dates should be kept separately.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Scott - you are the curmudgeon's curmudgeon. 

That is all.

s


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

2.I completely understand the laws of supply and demand. But no one ever mentions profits. That is my point. It isn't all about keeping the frogs around in the hobby. It is about making a buck alot more than some will admit. Yes, I remember when Azureus were considered rare. I am not knocking the breeders, but a guy that buys a certain frog because the frglets will bring top dollar is no holier than a designer breeder. Correct? The price of all herps have came way down, and alot of that was in part to the flood of people into the hobby to make a quick buck. I don't want a cheap frog, If I want a frog, I will pay the going price. I just want people to be honest. 

3.So are we not then line breeding both groups of Bri-Bri?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

No Scott,

I think you misunderstand my intentions here. I am not wishing to argue, and I stated I didn't want to discuss mixing or Hybrids. 

I honestly wonder if such seperated bloodlines will cause deletrious mutations down the road. I believe that line breeding for traits definately will, but won't such small groups being inbreed over and over have the same effect?

As for question #4, If we all stopped to consider this, there would be less arguing all the time on every topic. I see alot of posts that are more "you have to do it this way because I do it this way" than real advice. 

And, I do believe if you out the designer breeders you should also out the ones that are just in it to make a buck. Because when it comes right down to it, they will be deceptive as well.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

In my honest opinion yes, it is a little more about making a buck than some may admit. However, you have to consider that when someone pays $300+ for a frog they might not be all that willing to sacrifice the amount of money they put into the frogs+breeding, etc.

btw; dont mix


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Thank you for being honest. away. If I paid $45 for two froglets and ended up with a pair, I paid $45, so I should get $45. I completely understand that. 

The in it for the money was my point.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> 2.I completely understand the laws of supply and demand. But no one ever mentions profits. That is my point. It isn't all about keeping the frogs around in the hobby. It is about making a buck alot more than some will admit. Yes, I remember when Azureus were considered rare. I am not knocking the breeders, but a guy that buys a certain frog because the frglets will bring top dollar is no holier than a designer breeder. Correct? The price of all herps have came way down, and alot of that was in part to the flood of people into the hobby to make a quick buck. I don't want a cheap frog, If I want a frog, I will pay the going price. I just want people to be honest.
> 
> 3.So are we not then line breeding both groups of Bri-Bri?


It is not all about making a buck either. I don't know of any frog breeder who is a millionaire. It takes a lot of work and is NOT an easy way to get rich quick. How do you know that whatever breeders/frogkeepers you may be referring to, purchased said frog just to make a buck?? When I decided to break back into the hobby, I began searching on the internet for the frog I wanted to start with. I found a picture of Benedicta. "Wow!" Yeah, I said it out loud, "Max come look at this!! I found our frogs!" This was before I could even find out it they were in the country, let alone what the price may be. 
So because I love the looks of the Benedicta, you are saying I am no better than a designer breeder? Isn't a designer breeder trying to create new breeds? I am against crossbreeding, and sir, I take umbrage. You say you just want people to be honest. I told you honestly that if I spend a lot of money on a group of frogs, then I intend to sell and trade my offspring for fair market value. Perhaps even one day to pay off the many thousands of dollars I have into vivs, plants, light, frogs, etc. If I ever break even, yes, it would be pretty sweet to even make a little money on the side. GASP!! Profit?!! So I was honest, and yet your comments sound an awful lot like you are, in fact, still knocking the breeder and comparing me to a designer breeder?
You toss around the words: bickering, ranting, bullying, and disrespect. I've seen a few of your posts and it sure seems an awful lot like you love a good argument. And sir, in my book, respect is earned, not tossed around freely.

3. No, we are inbreeding them to a certain extent. If you have a better suggestion to open up the bloodlines on a frog from Costa Rica that you have not been able to legally collect for many years now, I'd love to hear it. Until then, it would be nice to be able to get a true Bri Bri and not something that's half Bri Bri and half, well, whatever red frog your felt like breeding with it.
Line breeding implies specifically breeding for a certain trait. Lets say you found some Bri Bri with a blue spot on their heads. You decide to breed them together. You select only the young that have a blue spot and they get bred back to mom and dad. This goes on, breeding brother to grandmother, constantly keeping only the blue spot frogs, as the blue spot gets bigger and bigger, until finally, you have line bred a line of BriBri with blue heads. Unfortunately, if you sneeze in their general direction, they all drop dead. That is line breeding.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Doug, I am not asking for your respect, I could give a damn less if I had it. And I am NOT referring to you or every breeder. I am pointing out that there are some in the hobby that are just in it to make a buck, yet nothing is said. 

Will I argue if I disagree, yes. Aren't you right now? But we don't have to be disrepectful to each other all the time. 

As for the Bri-Bri, I don't have the answer. But don't you think this is something we should think about?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Class act. I'm out. This guy is the definition of the "bickering, ranting, bullying, and disrespect", that he opens with.


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

You live in a capitalist country. Contrary to popular belief, supply and demand will help separate the people serious about the morph and those who are just piddling with frogs. In what world should someone sell a 300 dollar frog for 45 bucks just to appease someone else? If I can get 300 dollars for a frog I bred, then I will. If it's a reasonable price, someone will pay. If its unreasonable, the market will decide that too, and I will have to lower the price till said frog sells. Such is life. Rarity has always been a driving force in price, always, forever. So what if someone decides to breed frogs to have a side business, or a fulltime business for that matter. You are complaining about them trying to make a buck, when in actuallity they are bringing down the price of frogs for everyone by making them more available. The only rule I place on someone who breeds frogs for a living is they do an honest deal with me. That's all. I feel the same way about ANY business I choose to patronize. You always have the option of NOT paying whatever price for a frog. You can wait until it becomes cheaper. It's your money, after all.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Scott Richardson said:


> *Doug, I am not asking for your respect, I could give a damn less if I had it*. And I am NOT referring to you or every breeder. I am pointing out that there are some in the hobby that are just in it to make a buck, yet nothing is said.
> 
> Will I argue if I disagree, yes. Aren't you right now? *But we don't have to be disrepectful to each other all the time. *
> As for the Bri-Bri, I don't have the answer. But don't you think this is something we should think about?


Perhaps the former statement was viewed as bickering or disrespectful.

We should reflect upon these issues in lieu of all the information previously recorded on DB. The ones who provided what I know are probably tired of repeating it and have a shorter fuse as a result of other external factors involved. 
Have you tried looking the respective up using the Search function? All these paths have been well-trodden before.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

In it for them money has a negative connotation to it..... I love dart frogs, I love the hobby with all of it's faults. I have breeding trio of varaderos what I would like to do is make this hobby for me a self sustaining hobby, so I don't have to reach into my pocket to buy frogs or supplies for my collection. Does that make me in it for the money? I don't think so, If your a business selling frogs then, yes your in it for the money. If your selling frogs and could care less about the hobby and look at it as another way to get paid to make your Ferrari payment yea you could be in it for the money. But if your a hobbyist like myself and others selling the offspring to support your hobby, then no it's NOT in it for the money cause that money ends up back in the hobby wither it be to sponsors, other breeders or members and that money doesn't stay long enough in your hands for it to be considered in it for the money. IMHHO.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> 1. When someone says You can't keep frogs in a terrarium with others that they don't come into contact with in the wild--What frogs do captive born frogs born and raised in a terrarium come into contact with in the wild


 
You are making a flawed assumption here.. there is ample evidence that pathogens native to the wild populations are readily carried over into captive populations. As most captive populations are not housed in facilities that controlled to prevent the escape of potentially contaminated feeders or proper disposal of contaminated water or other materials, the risk of a pathogen that has learned to jump hosts is incresed... Examples of persistence of infections are well established...in this and other taxa... .as one example look at the prevelence of simian foamy virus in people or herpes virus in elephants or chelonians... 


Ed


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

This is what I am saying, If I said black, you would all say no it's not, it's white.

What I am referring to is people who have no interest in poision dart frogs other than to breed them till something new comes along to make more money off of. 
I am not referring to or trying to offend any of the hobbyists that sell the animals that are bred in their terrariums. I am referring to the ones that pump the frogs full of drugs to maximize clutch size and induce more frequent breeding. 
I did not know Doug had Benedicta, and was not making a reference to him or any other hobbyist. He seems to of taken it personally, which I will have to address with him. 

Like I said, I am not trying to argue here.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> I am referring to the ones that pump the frogs full of drugs to maximize clutch size and induce more frequent breeding.


Any evidence of this or are you just throwing around wild hypotheses?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Thank you Ed. 

That is why I asked the question.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Hmmm, in it to make a buck makes me think long-term failure. You could get a small job and in the time you would need to care for a viviarium and breeding things, you would have had made more money over time...


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> This is what I am saying, If I said black, you would all say no it's not, it's white.
> 
> What I am referring to is people who have no interest in poison dart frogs other than to breed them till something new comes along to make more money off of.
> I am not referring to or trying to offend any of the hobbyists that sell the animals that are bred in their terrariums. I am referring to the ones that pump the frogs full of drugs to maximize clutch size and induce more frequent breeding.
> ...


Yea I understand what your saying and that clarification helps qualify what you mean by "in it for the money" the problem is you will always find them in any hobby especially hobbies that have the ability for people to breed their own product....There is a lot of that in the marine reef hobby over the last few years with high end corals and having them get chopped up into frags and resold for high end dollars. In the end the only thing we can do is not spend our personal money with them and hope the rest catch on to it as well and hopefully they slowly move to another hobby before to many either get burned and newbies get taken for a ride. Along the way respectfully let others know.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

edwardsatc said:


> Any evidence of this or are you just throwing around wild hypotheses?


Yes, I have met several people that over dose the frogs with hormones from other frogs. I don't remember the name of the hormones though. The frogs live short lives because of it.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Scott Richardson said:


> Yes, I have met several people that over dose the frogs with hormones from other frogs. I don't remember the name of the hormones though. The frogs live short lives because of it.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Azurel said:


> Yea I understand what your saying and that clarification helps qualify what you mean by "in it for the money" the problem is you will always find them in any hobby especially hobbies that have the ability for people to breed their own product....There is a lot of that in the marine reef hobby over the last few years with high end corals and having them get chopped up into frags and resold for high end dollars. In the end the only thing we can do is not spend our personal money with them and hope the rest catch on to it as well and hopefully they slowly move to another hobby before to many either get burned and newbies get taken for a ride. Along the way respectfully let others know.


My question is why isn't this topic discussed more. It is as large an issue as hybrids an such. And these guys would think twice to sell a dieased frog


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Tony,
I will call and get the name of the hormone the guy uses for you.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Scott Richardson said:


> Doug, I am not asking for your respect, I could give a damn less if I had it.





Scott Richardson said:


> But we don't have to be disrepectful to each other all the time.





Inigo Montoya said:


> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


............


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

Inconcievable!!!


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Scott Richardson said:


> Tony,
> I will call and get the name of the hormone the guy uses for you.


Human chorionic gonadotropin? It is commonly used for larger frogs like _Xenopus_ or _Ceratophrys_, but I have to throw the flag on it being used for Dendrobatids.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Tony, 
No that is not it. 

It is lutenizing hormone/releasing hormone. Made from the pituitary glands of frogs. It forces the frogs to reach sexual maturity faster and produce more eggs. He said the hormone you mentioned is called prolan and is made from the urine of pregnant women. That can't be used with PDFs.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Tony said:


> Human chorionic gonadotropin? It is commonly used for larger frogs like _Xenopus_ or _Ceratophrys_, but I have to throw the flag on it being used for Dendrobatids.


 ... and it doesn't come from other frogs.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

. . . and this hormone is being used on dart frogs? I consider myself fairly well connected in this community, and I have never heard of such a thing. Who supposedly is using it, and where is your information coming from?


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## keith campbell (Aug 11, 2007)

I get pretty good results dusting with Viagra.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> This is what I am saying, If I said black, you would all say no it's not, it's white.
> 
> What I am referring to is people who have no interest in poision dart frogs other than to breed them till something new comes along to make more money off of.
> I am not referring to or trying to offend any of the hobbyists that sell the animals that are bred in their terrariums. I am referring to the ones that pump the frogs full of drugs to maximize clutch size and induce more frequent breeding.
> ...





Scott Richardson said:


> Tony,
> I will call and get the name of the hormone the guy uses for you.





Scott Richardson said:


> Tony,
> No that is not it.
> 
> It is lutenizing hormone/releasing hormone. Made from the pituitary glands of frogs. It forces the frogs to reach sexual maturity faster and produce more eggs. He said the hormone you mentioned is called prolan and is made from the urine of pregnant women. That can't be used with PDFs.


Ok, the guy you got the name of the hormone from, is this the same guy you are calling out on this thread for* "pump[ing] the frogs full of drugs to maximize clutch size and induce more frequent breeding?"* Is this person a friend of yours? Do I have this right? If so, isn't it a little strange?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

What doesn't come from other frogs?


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Scott Richardson said:


> My question is why isn't this topic discussed more. It is as large an issue as hybrids an such. And these guys would think twice to sell a dieased frog


Ok, fair enough. Here is my policy. If I think someone puts profit over the health of the animals, or if they are flipping the frogs so quickly they really have no control over the health of the animals, then I put them on my mental list of sellers to never ever buy from or sell to.

For that matter, If someone sells me a sick frog, I put them on my mental list of sellers to never ever buy from or sell to.

If I see someone in the forums showing off their intentionally produced hybrids, or defending the production of hybrids, I put them on my mental list of sellers to never ever buy from or sell to.

If I see someone bragging about their mixed species tanks, and have not taken into account potential parasite cross contamination issues, I put them on my mental list of sellers to never ever buy from or sell to.

You would think this list would be long by now, but it is not. Typically people on this list don't really stick around the hobby very long. We can rant, rave, accuse, and vilify...but ultimately our dollars speak loudest.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Yes, this guy is one of the people I am referring to. NO, he is not a friend of mine. Do you have the right to do so? Who I am to tell you no.

I will tell you I don't agree with the practise, which is why I asked why people don't complain about this more. It is just as bad as hybrids in my opinion. This guy is not a member of the forum as far as I know, And like I said earlier, I am not accusing members of doing this, but if it is done, why is it not discussed as much?


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> What doesn't come from other frogs?


Human chorionic gonadotropin (hcG)


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Scott Richardson said:


> Yes, this guy is one of the people I am referring to. NO, he is not a friend of mine. Do you have the right to do so? Who I am to tell you no.
> 
> I will tell you I don't agree with the practise, which is why I asked why people don't complain about this more. It is just as bad as hybrids in my opinion. This guy is not a member of the forum as far as I know, And like I said earlier, I am not accusing members of doing this, but if it is done, why is it not discussed as much?


Wait, where is this? Is this in the U.S. because I've never even heard of Dart breeders doing this.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Boondoggle said:


> Ok, fair enough. Here is my policy. If I think someone puts profit over the health of the animals, or if they are flipping the frogs so quickly they really have no control over the health of the animals, then I put them on my mental list of sellers to never ever buy from or sell to.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> That is what I mean by in it for the money


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> but if it is done, why is it not discussed as much?


Probably because we've seen no evidence of it. Why would we discuss something that no one knew was happening (if it is happening)?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

edwardsatc said:


> Human chorionic gonadotropin (hcG)


I said the guy said lh/rh comes from frogs pituitary glands not HCG. He said that is also called Prolan and is from womens urine


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

^^ If you look at my post, I was obviously responding to Tony's post since that is who I quoted.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Well, this guy said he was shown how by another, so I would say it is happening. But if it doesn't happen enough to be a concern overall, then that answers my question as to why it is not discussed much.

That's what I wanted to know. It didn't make sense to me.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

And yes, I know what hcG is. I inject Xenopus several times a week for research purposes.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Sorry Edward, misunderstood ya.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Is this LH/RH real?


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> Is this LH/RH real?


Isn't that what everyone's asking you?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I was asking Edward since he works with hormones. 

I don't know of LH/RH, I know I was told of it and how people use it, so I asked why the topic is not discussed. 

I have no personal knowledge of it, other than a guy telling me he uses it to produce massive clutches of eggs. Which seems wrong.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> I was asking Edward since he works with hormones.
> 
> I don't know of LH/RH, I know I was told of it and how people use it, so I asked why the topic is not discussed.
> 
> I have no personal knowledge of it, other than a guy telling me he uses it to produce massive clutches of eggs. Which seems wrong.


While I have a decent working knowledge of endocrine systems, I don't work with hormones. I simply use them to induce breeding in Xenopus for frog embryo assays.

As for LHRH's, if you are asking if they exist, they do indeed. If you are asking if they are in fact used on frogs to stimulate growth and breeding, I don't know.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Scott Richardson said:


> I was asking Edward since he works with hormones.
> 
> I don't know of LH/RH, I know I was told of it and how people use it, so I asked why the topic is not discussed.
> 
> I have no personal knowledge of it, other than a guy telling me he uses it to produce massive clutches of eggs. Which seems wrong.


Scott, 

I think you are telling the truth. The next best step IMO is to identify specifically what the LH is doing for the frogs, and what evidence you have or can show that luteinizing hormone is sapping life from the dart frogs. Lutein would increase reproduction, and discretionary private messages to some of the more experienced folks on here ID'ing who is using it might be in order.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> I was asking Edward since he works with hormones.
> 
> I don't know of LH/RH, I know I was told of it and how people use it, so I asked why the topic is not discussed.
> 
> I have no personal knowledge of it, other than a guy telling me he uses it to produce massive clutches of eggs. Which seems wrong.


 
LHRH (Luteinizing-hormone-releasing hormone) is another name for (or more appropriately known as) GnRH (Gonadotropin-releasing hormone). It is indeed used in a number of anurans for inducement of artificial reproduction however it does not typically increase the number of follicles produced (for example use in humans results in fewer multiple births (and a tendency towards twins when it does) so the idea for producing more eggs is not supported by the literature (as I know it). 

I'm having strong doubts that it is being used in dendrobatids as (in no particular order)
1) the dosage would be hard to administer to any of the smaller dendrobatids (which right now are the higher value frogs) 
2) dosage and timing of administration typically need to be empirically derived as not all species respond the same
3) egg production is also controlled by photoperiod, and nutritional status (even with hormones it can be difficult to induce ovulation if other cues are incorrect) 
4) increased rates of mortality are likely in the frogs (particularly males)
5) induced ovulation doesn't always mean that fertilization will occur... 

There is a decent write-up on it's usage in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry particularly 289-294

Ed


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Ed,
We are saying the same thing. 

I used the word overdosing, because one of the guys I talked to said the smallest dose they could give with the smallest syringe was more than the dose the frogs should be given, but they "weighed the risks". And when I said the frogs life was shortened, the mortality rate is what I meant. But they are working with all types of dart frogs going for volume not just the more expensive species. 

My questions have been answered, evidently it isn't wide spread, and the offspring shouldn't be affected, so I am done with this.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Scott Richardson said:


> Ed,
> We are saying the same thing.
> 
> I used the word overdosing, because one of the guys I talked to said the smallest dose they could give with the smallest syringe was more than the dose the frogs should be given, but they "weighed the risks". And when I said the frogs life was shortened, the mortality rate is what I meant. But they are working with all types of dart frogs going for volume not just the more expensive species.
> ...


Please PM me with who it was if you will. I would like to know so I will not support their business whatsoever.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> Please PM me with who it was if you will. I would like to know so I will not support their business whatsoever.


It's me. Those darned Azureus are just too slow in producing babies! I'm also behind McGwire's and Sosa's home run race in '98. It was a heck of a commute between Chicago and St. Louis with all those injections, but made for some interesting baseball!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

lincolnrailers said:


> It's me. Those darned Azureus are just too slow in producing babies! I'm also behind McGwire's and Sosa's home run race in '98. It was a heck of a commute between Chicago and St. Louis with all those injections, but made for some interesting baseball!


I'm too irritated for laffs on this one


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