# How much ventilation needed?



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Hi everyone,
I think you all know what "european type" tanks with their bottom/front and top vent look like. 
Scale this down and you have the offspring tank, which is common here. I for myself use plastic boxes to keep my offspring, but I use to drill several 1.2 inch holes with a hole cutter in the lower front and upper back side of these boxes and cover them with screen.
Now sometimes when I surf DB or Canadart I see pictures of offspring in boxes with tight lids and obviously no holes at all. (I think you call them shoeboxes or something like that). Now my question isn't just "Is this possible?" but "Is it reasonable?"
Of course I'd like to use such boxes for several reasons:
- air tight also means no way to escape for smallest food items
- no effort with cutting holes and fixing screens
- constantly high humidity without the need of spraying daily

But sometimes when I tried raising froglets in such an environment for a *longer* time (let's say up to semiadolescence) I got problems with skin mycosis, not well developing frogs, etc.
Did I do something wrong or do serious breeders use ventilation as I do or is this method just possible if I'd use tons of antibiotics?

Just to mention this: There haven't been any plants in the boxes I've seen on the net, just (dead) spaghnum, so plants aren't the key.

I hope someone who either uses ventilation or tight boxes/tanks for some reason could answer my questions, and if some of you use tight boxes without ventilation I'd like to know how long you keep your offspring in these boxes and at which quantity and how often you open the lids, i.e. while feeding the froglets.

btw: I know this thread www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/44647-need-ventilation-no.html but it hasn't been useful for me, because there are very few answers and the question itself is about planted tanks for adulti, I think.

greets,
CF

Edit: Sorry, wanted to post this in general discussion, maybe someone can move it there.


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

...really not anybody wants to weigh in on this?  Or did I ask something wrong?

Would be really useful for me to get some fresh input, because I bought several new boxes for my offspring right now and I don't know if I should cut such ventilation holes as I did before or try something without ventilation


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## Zorloc (Apr 6, 2011)

I have used large 4gal steralite containers, almost clear with 1 pothos plant in little 3in pot and air tight
The plant i think helps create oxagen
And ive kept adult frogs for up to 6mo (1 frog per container)
Preparing perm home viv and awaiting fecal results.
Im very new to pdf keeping so i dont have very much experiance to help you with.

Sent from taptalk Sprint Evo


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## jibfest (Dec 1, 2010)

I use this "shoebox" meathod with good success. Although I don't cut holes with screen I do drill small holes along the top (making sure to remove any sharp edges of course) for some kind of air movement, in addition to the pothos or like cuttings. I do get the occasional ff escape but anyone concerned about a few little ff is in the wrong hobby!


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

I also use the steralite containers for the first 2 months or so then transfer them to 5 gallon aquariums. Neither have any provisions for ventilation and both are covered with sphagnum moss with some film canisters for hiding. I mist them a couple of times a weeks and keep them supplied in spring tails and flies once they're ready. All tanks are kept under lights and the sphagnum is growing. I use the same substrate and container for the offspring from a single pair for as long as they're producing. I do have ventilated tanks, but as a general rule don't use those for froglet grow out tanks. The picture has 2 grow out tanks shown. Eventually I'd like to replace the 5 gallons with fully planted vert 10 gallons. 

Brian


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Zorloc said:


> Im very new to pdf keeping so i dont have very much experiance to help you with.


Nonetheless your post has been useful for me, thx.


jibfest said:


> I use this "shoebox" meathod with good success. Although I don't cut holes with screen I do drill small holes along the top (making sure to remove any sharp edges of course) for some kind of air movement, in addition to the pothos or like cuttings. I do get the occasional ff escape but anyone concerned about a few little ff is in the wrong hobby!


Not concerned about ff but crickets 
I think drilling holes along the top and deflashing any single hole is
similar to the effort I have with cutting about 4 larger holes and using a soldering gun to deflash the edges and glue the screen.
So I think most interesting (for me) is this:


BR5 said:


> I do have ventilated tanks, but as a general rule don't use those for froglet grow out tanks.
> Brian


Could you pls explain, why you (and others?) think this to be a general rule? I thought, frogs, either froglets or adult ones, need some kind of balance between humid and dryer seasons a day. Correct me, if I'm wrong, I'm open minded, it is just what I have been told from other hobbyists when I started keeping pdf's several years ago.

Thx for the pics btw


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

crickets? you don't feed crickets to anything but terribilis adults...


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Uhm what...?
I know many people who feed micro crickets to their froglets and have perfect results with this. I did so some years ago, but stopped feeding crickets because if they escaped (what they did often in my untight setups...) and grew up they started making this absolutely annoying "chirr chirr chirr" overall in the livingroom, bedroom, etc. 
For this reason (and some others as well) tight boxes could be cooler for me.

greets,
CF


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

i suppose it would be fine as long as the crickets are as small as fruit flies...


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I use these and have had no issues at all. I use sphagnum moss and leaves. I mist once a week. Sometimes twice. The froglets are fed daily.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

Could you pls explain, why you (and others?) think this to be a general rule? I thought, frogs, either froglets or adult ones, need some kind of balance between humid and dryer seasons a day. Correct me, if I'm wrong, I'm open minded, it is just what I have been told from other hobbyists when I started keeping pdf's several years ago.

Thx for the pics btw [/QUOTE]

I'm not aware of any scientific reason for not venting the enclosures, they are by no means air tight and they’re opened every other day for feeding so maybe that’s enough. If you search the threads you'll find pictures of the round plastic bins used by some of the more experienced breeders and I don't see vents in those either. I believe what we’re seeing is convenience and what works for some, the containers I use cost as little as $3.00. 

Hope this helps
Brian


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Thank you all for sharing your experience. So I think, ventilation is not indispensable or at least isn't the one and only thing to think about for the skin problems which my froglets got in nonventilated setups several years ago.

This question might have been out of the ordinary ordinary for you  but since in Europe it is so absolutely common to ventilate the tanks (by active and/or passive ventilation) it has been very helpful for me to have asked this here.

greets,
CF


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

By the way, all of my permanent tanks are vented. A few months in a non vented tank for a froglets shouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't do it long term myself, but others do.


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## LadyBullseye (Oct 17, 2011)

I am new to dart frogs, but in the researching I've done, the plastic containers (shoebox or sweater box size) that the experienced froggers I know use, are not technically "airtight". What I mean is, they don't have a seal on the lid that would prevent all air. I don't know if that is helpful, but I thought I would mention it.


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