# New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.



## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

The girlfriend and I are starting a new business off of New England Wholesale Florist Supply which we manage currently. Hopefully this time next year we'll be successfully breeding Leucomelas, Azureus, Enigma LGs, Tang LGs, and some RAPTOR LGs. We'll also be handling a HEAVY amount of terrarium supplies - but I'll save the info 'till when we're a sponsor of the forum. 

We had some space behind the new kitchen so we started building.




































That's the waste water evac system. It pumps outside the house whenever it's full.








The outlet of the waste water pump.








Painted, doors, shelves. 








Easily detachable PVC connections all fed by a reverse-osmosis reservoir.








The R/O reservoir. (the misting system will be using this also)








The drain/fill valves. 








The R/O system.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Cage construction!!!



























Glass & Plexi cutting & drilling.









These are for the Leucomelas. NOT the azureus who will have 10H tanks.














































We have a HerpMist misting system in the mail - all the vertical cages will have at least one nozzle. As they are now - they sit between 80 and 90% humidity. The fans have been added to keep them to a MAX of 80F. Originally the florescent lights caused them to overheat. Nightly it goes down to 74 degrees. Mid day the top of the cage hits 80-81F - bottom stays right around 79F.

And for the leopard geckos:

















(I'm MUCH more comfortable w/LGs. I've been dealing with them for 4 years now. )

Comments/questions appreciated.


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

Looks like you're off to a good start, lots of thought put into the water system. Seems like alot of weight on those shelves for just using the L brackets. Keep up the good design and good luck with your new endeavor.
Scott


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

^^ haha yeah no kidding with the brackets. The bottom shelf uses uber beefy 1/8" steel brackets. The other shelves use the cheesy "stanley" 90s since they will be holding about ~1/2 the weight as the bottom shelf.

Oh - and btw - the drainage between cages is NOT DIRECTLY CONNECTED (to prevent cross-tank contamination). Each drains to a big pipe below the shelf with a collector beneath each cage... If that makes sense.


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## SS7 (Sep 15, 2008)

Everything looks really nice. How do you mount the metal hardware to the acrylic?

Sam


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

lookin good there. why use 10 H for azures though??? thats not alot of floorspace.


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## jejton (Sep 3, 2006)

Nice work. Good luck on the endeavour. Why use RO/DI though? I've read in a few places that its not ideal to use with amphibians as it is hypotonic to them and will cause them to bloat from too much water absorption. Your plants could also benefit from the minerals in the water. I'm guessing you want to avoid mineral deposits but they can always be flushed, wiped away. Why not keep a resorvoir ( Brute can ) of tap water that is allowed to age so the chlorine disapates ?


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## Brock (Jun 29, 2007)

There's lots of contaminants in tap water OTHER than chlorine, that don't dissipate with time. Depending where you live, of course. Each and every city is different. There's one city around here that has trace amounts of uranium in the water!

Make some tadpole tea for the reservoir, just boil the RO or distilled water with some almond, oak, or magnolia leaves (or whatever you want), and add some kinda blackwater extract. 

Then it's completely fine (and closest to natural) to spray with RO or distilled.


Room looks great! Goodluck in your ventures.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

Looks very well planned out, your waste water is just pumped outside?


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

bellerophon said:


> Looks very well planned out, your waste water is just pumped outside?


lol actually yeah. Right in the back of the garden. 



james67 said:


> lookin good there. why use 10 H for azures though??? thats not alot of floorspace.


Those cages are for Leucs.  I'll post pics of the horizontal cages tomorrow. 



SS7 said:


> Everything looks really nice. How do you mount the metal hardware to the acrylic?
> 
> Sam


Black Silicone. 



jejton said:


> Nice work. Good luck on the endeavour. Why use RO/DI though? I've read in a few places that its not ideal to use with amphibians as it is hypotonic to them and will cause them to bloat from too much water absorption. Your plants could also benefit from the minerals in the water. I'm guessing you want to avoid mineral deposits but they can always be flushed, wiped away. Why not keep a resorvoir ( Brute can ) of tap water that is allowed to age so the chlorine disapates ?


I'll deff look into that. It wouldn't be hard at all to add a carbon filtered tank to the mix. I could just use the R/O water for misting and the carbon filtered water for the cage bottoms.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

MeiKVR6 said:


> lol actually yeah. Right in the back of the garden.


I don't mean to come off judgmental but that's rather irresponsible. It looks like you try and take precautions to avoid cross contamination within your collection. why don't you extend that courtesy to your native fauna? Again I don't mean to come across as a dick, just curious on your decision.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

bellerophon said:


> I don't mean to come off judgmental but that's rather irresponsible. It looks like you try and take precautions to avoid cross contamination within your collection. why don't you extend that courtesy to your native fauna? Again I don't mean to come across as a dick, just curious on your decision.


haha no prob. Actually you can't see it in the picture but that area is the "exhaust" area for the entire house. 2 propane heater ducts, the R/O system exhaust water, Propane Water Heater exhaust pipe, and 2 A/C compressors sit right there. Whatever lives in that little 5' wide nook outside the house is destined for death anyways.  Hope that doesn't make me sound insensitive but seriously there's no way around the propane heater exhausts... All the exhaust noise keeps everything but the bugs away... The bugs somehow don't mind the constant 200+degree air coming out of the exhaust piping. If they can deal with all the heat and carbon monoxide - i'm sure they won't mind a little used water. 

And eariler I mis-typed something. For whatever reason I said 10H for my azureus. They will be in 10 gal tanks - but horizontal.  I'll try and get pics up. One cage is partially built - the others are just starting.

...and I broke a cage front this morning when I thought it was latched... It wasn't.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

I'm not so much concerned about the 5' area near your house as I am the entire area your dumping contaminated water into. Lets take a look at just Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (Chytrid) for one. As per the CDC's website and many studies, Bd can survive in waste water and soil for up to seven weeks to a year. Not to mention possible contamination of the environment with hook/lungworm, crypto+ etc..


> These results have immediate relevance for disease control and quarantine strategies. Water in contact with amphibians should be regarded as contaminated with B. dendrobatidis for up to at least 7 weeks after last contact with the amphibian. For quarantine purposes, all water, moist soil, and wet fomites imported into a country with amphibians should be regarded as infectious for B. dendrobatidis unless the amphibians are shown to be uninfected. A similar strategy should be adopted when introducing new amphibians into a captive colony or collection. Similarly, water and any items coming into contact with amphibians moved within countries should be regarded as infectious for B. dendrobatidis. In practical terms, storage alone for a period of time should not be used as a means of ensuring water that has been in contact with an amphibian is not contagious. All water and wet soil in contact with an amphibian should be disinfected before discharge into the wastewater system or the natural environment. Amphibians should not be placed into enclosures with water used previously by other amphibians without prior disinfection. Any other wet objects that have been in contact with amphibians should either be disposed of or disinfected before repeat use. Various disinfection strategies have been described (M. L. Johnson et al., unpub. data). The most effective strategies for disinfection are heat (>47°C for 30 min), didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride at >0.0012% final concentration for 2 min, or sodium hypochlorite (>1% for 1 min). To comply with the intentions of Office Internationale des Epizootes listing, amphibians, when moved between countries, should be placed in a different container on arrival; all water, soil, plants, and litter in contact with the amphibian during transport should be adequately disinfected by using techniques capable of killing B. dendrobatidis.


It wouldn't take much extra efford to install a waste water vessel outside that can contain the water until its treated with bleach or other means before releasing into the environment. If you need more info you can take a look at the TWI/ASN recommended guidlines for waste disposal.

You've put so much effort into building your system up right, may as well get that last step in there  Looks great otherwise!


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Maybe i'll do that. Wouldn't be too hard to treat with a bleach solution first. We are using a sanitizer already like I said but bleach would work.


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## FrogOly (Oct 5, 2007)

jejton said:


> Nice work. Good luck on the endeavour. Why use RO/DI though? I've read in a few places that its not ideal to use with amphibians as it is hypotonic to them and will cause them to bloat from too much water absorption. Your plants could also benefit from the minerals in the water. I'm guessing you want to avoid mineral deposits but they can always be flushed, wiped away. Why not keep a resorvoir ( Brute can ) of tap water that is allowed to age so the chlorine disapates ?


DI water is WAY more pure than RO water, and I did not notice a DI. Dart frogs are not typically soaking in a vessel of water like other amphibians may. The plants should be able to get all the nutrients they need out of the substrate, and frog feces. The benefits of using RO water in your set-up are very numerous, and far outweigh using aged tap water, and with likely much less risk to your animals than with your tap water.


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## qiksilver5 (Jan 9, 2007)

The drain to outside worries me as well. Why didn't you just add a drain to the sewer when you were building the room? As long as you're going to treat it before dumping that shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not sure why you would just dump waste material outside your house. That seems a little...toxic. Also won't you have problems with freezing?


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## Ridge (Jun 7, 2004)

Looks like you have been planning this out for a while. Are you going to add some screen over those ventilation holes in your tanks to prevent FF escapes?


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Ridge said:


> Looks like you have been planning this out for a while. Are you going to add some screen over those ventilation holes in your tanks to prevent FF escapes?


You can't see it in the pics - but the bottom holes actually DO have a screen over them. I'll post a pic. I figure the top wouldn't need screening since they are flightless, right?



qiksilver5 said:


> The drain to outside worries me as well. Why didn't you just add a drain to the sewer when you were building the room? As long as you're going to treat it before dumping that shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not sure why you would just dump waste material outside your house. That seems a little...toxic. Also won't you have problems with freezing?


Freezing - no because of the constant heating of the propane house heaters in that area. It's difficult to describe - but that whole section isn't ground level. It's on top of a big 6 foot retaining wall that was once a compost heap. 

I'd have loved to drain to the septic tank - but that room is 5 feet below the waste pipe for the house.  So. Pumping outside *after sanitization* will have to work at least for awhile. I have access to some heavy yet environmentally friendly chemicals that I know will work.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ffs can climb glass so yes you would need to cover the holes. they seem to migrate to a tall point as well so top or bottom you need screen.

james


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

looks great! just one thing i think your vent holes are too big and you will hav ea lot of flies escape unless you put some screening on it.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Well I guess it's a good thing I posted before I filled the tanks huh? 

I'll add some screening.


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## jejton (Sep 3, 2006)

MeiKVR6 said:


> ...and I broke a cage front this morning when I thought it was latched... It wasn't.


That happened to my 20 vertical tank too. I had to transfer my RETF to another ( inappropriate) tank with my day geckos and he died. It took me forever to get the remnants of the glass off the hinge and I still havent fixed it. Its on my To-Do Eventually list.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

You can also look into using a recirculating ultraviolet sterilizer in your waste water container, to sterilize it before dumping it, although I'm unsure of it's effectiveness against Bd specifically so you'd have to look into that.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Nice setup. 

Are you sure those shelves will hold that amount of weight? As the tanks become saturated they will also gain weight.


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## Ridge (Jun 7, 2004)

I was thinking that about the shelf brackets too. I assume you have them bolted into the wall studs and not just the drywall otherwise you are asking for some future heartache.


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## Tim Pechous (Sep 13, 2008)

first off congrats, everything looks great. but you might want to take those fake vines out, i've used them before and they tend to rot because the inside is just wire wrapped in cardboard. or you could try covering them in silicone and coco, just a thought.
good luck,

Tim


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

The brackets are bolted 3" deep straight to the studs. They'll bend before they break - but i'm not worried.  Each one has 5 3" wood screws straight to a stud. 

The vines might rot?! That's crappy.  I suppose I'll see how long they'll last before they start to go "mush" on me.

I'm hoping to have the FF cultures next week and the frogs the week after. I want to leave the cages alone for at least 2 weeks before I introduce life to them. 

BTW. You guys DO realize how much more difficult these frogs are as pets than just about EVERYTHING else right?


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## RPN (Mar 25, 2007)

Looks Great. Did you re-silicone the black rim onto the top of the tank prior to standing them up and adding inserts?
You may also want to silicone between the door opening at the top and make a slice when dry. Gap looks 1/4 the size of the holes that need screened.
All in all off to a great start and good luck.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

so you are putting azureus and leucs into ten gallons?? Not enough space. hardly for a pair of vents. I'm also hoping you plan on quarantining and fecaling the darts before introducing? kristy


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Well, nice to see a another member from Connecticut. I think that makes, let`s see, about 2!!

Remember these highly "dangerous" frogs are illegal here in CT.

John


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

kristy55303 said:


> so you are putting azureus and leucs into ten gallons?? Not enough space. hardly for a pair of vents. I'm also hoping you plan on quarantining and fecaling the darts before introducing? kristy


The frogs i'm introducing are coming from the same place. Quarantining won't be necessary in this case. They will be screened @ the herp vet tho just to be safe. For the record - The Leucs will be in 10 gal verticals - only 2 per cage. I've done a whole lot of research on these guys and that is the size MOST breeders use. From what I understand it's a good size for the leucs so long as the cages AREN'T horizontal.

The Azureus cages aren't fully built yet - but again I've seen breeding pairs of Azureus in 10H tanks before. I know Azureus are bigger than the leucs - but of course if it's too small - I suppose we'll have to get bigger vivs.  No big deal.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Enlighted Rogue said:


> Well, nice to see a another member from Connecticut. I think that makes, let`s see, about 2!!
> 
> Remember these highly "dangerous" frogs are illegal here in CT.
> 
> John


Are they really?  haha


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Ok. To those who don't know - PLEXIGLASS AND SILICONE DO NOT WORK WELL TOGETHER!!! 

I just spent 4 hours fixing 3 cages that started to leak. Ugh. Well. At least now they are fixed and **shouldn't** leak again.

I got the (herpmist) misting system installed today. I made my own switch since I don't plan on spending $50.00+ on a misting timer anytime soon. 

PICS!




































^^^ UGLY! But it needed to be done due to the leaky silicone. 









So that's it for now.  BTW - Vet says R/O water is fine to use so long as it's changed every other day or so. Bacteria can build up faster with r/o and distilled water than it can on normal tap stuff. It has it's good and bad but I'll stick to this now that it's all set up. Changing all the cages water takes place every day and takes less than 3 minutes thanks to the weird PVC setup.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Maybe worth looking into one one of these for your holding tank: JBJ Submariner UV Sterilizer/Clarifier


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I would second the uv sterilizer. I run one on my bucket of misting water for that very reason and they are pretty affordable. Just remember to change the bulb every 6 months.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

The Detroit Zoo adds 1%, by weight, of Instant Ocean salt mix to their R/O water for amphibians. I was told this was to decrease the ion difference between the frog and the water, as well as retard bacterial growth.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Wow I thought those UV sterilizers were way more! Maybe i'll pick one up. I was hoping since the holding tank is 100% sealed I wouldn't need to worry - but I guess better safe than sorry.


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

What size tank is your misting reservoir? It looks like 20 gallons at least... which leads me to: seconding thirding and fourthing all the concerns regarding the weight issue Not only on the brackets, but on the studs of the wall. I hope you know who built the house and they didn't cheap out on lumber. All it would take is lazy framer to hang a stud with a large knot in it and you will have big mess on your hands. 

Why not get your hands on the HD or Lowes racks we all use? You would be looking at about $150 to cover the area you have now. I would do it for peace of mind alone. I hope we don't scare you off, we (the board) just see the same mistakes over and over again and want to help prevent them.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> The frogs i'm introducing are coming from the same place. Quarantining won't be necessary in this case. They will be screened @ the herp vet tho just to be safe. For the record - The Leucs will be in 10 gal verticals - only 2 per cage. I've done a whole lot of research on these guys and that is the size MOST breeders use. From what I understand it's a good size for the leucs so long as the cages AREN'T horizontal.
> 
> The Azureus cages aren't fully built yet - but again I've seen breeding pairs of Azureus in 10H tanks before. I know Azureus are bigger than the leucs - but of course if it's too small - I suppose we'll have to get bigger vivs.  No big deal.


first off. ten gallon horizontals are too small for a pair of any tinc. which includes azureus and leucs. And now you are putting them in ten verticals? sorry if i come off a bit harsh, but by all means trying to help you out. they are barely large enough for a pair of thumbs. My suggestion. i know it may have sucked to build those shelves as well...but replace with some metal racks at HD or something. Get some bigger vivs as well for the tinc sized darts. azureus, auratus, leucs, etc. Nothing bigger than a thumbnail. And even then, the space is very limited for a pair IMO. Don't feel like i am getting down on you, i'm not, and think your viv set-up is great besides the size of the tanks and darts going in and the shelves worry me. we did the same thing for my boxes in a closet once, same way you have yours set-up, and some had buckled. It was a mess. the metal racks at home depot etc can hold 1,000 lbs i believe?? hey, its better to be safe than sorry and also forcing darts to breed in tanks of that size including tinc size is not healthy for them. You wouldnt want to lose a breeding pair due to stress etc woulkd you? It doesnt matter who you get them from, what vet checks them over...they need to be quarantined and fecaled per asn protocol imo. a vet check may not show everything. i have done three fecals spaced apart and the third one come back with hookworm. sux. then you got to start the whole process over again after treatment. and lets not forget there are many things that a vet can not see in a fecal....viruses, chytrid, etc. i know you think i'm coming off as a "know it all" but really trying to help you avoid the mistakes we all have made. leucs and azureus 20 gallon minimum tall not vertical but horizontal per pair. kristy


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

kristy55303 said:


> but replace with some metal racks at HD or something.





dopederson said:


> I hope you know who built the house and they didn't cheap out on lumber.


I built the room myself when I was building the kitchen. That wall has PT 2X4s - the house would literally fall on this room before anything would come off them. 4 3 inch wood screws into EACH bracket - each bracket on a PT 2X4... No worries there. ...at all... I'm sure bad things have happened with people in the past - but I've got a teeny bit of experience. I've completely rebuilt the bottom half of my house (supporting stuff too - not just aesthetics) in the past year so making shelves is pretty freakin' simple as compared to jacking up a house that had fallen on a 6X6 PT beam and replacing the support structure in the basement rooms.  I assure you. The shelves will not fail. The metal brackets would bend first anyways but each is rated to 50lbs so 50lbsX6 brackets... And those are the weaker metal brackets I used on the top 2 shelves. Those would be some OBESE cages to make them bend lol.



kristy55303 said:


> they need to be quarantined and fecaled per asn protocol imo.


That's fine - but if they are coming from the same place - and heading for the same place - I don't see where one would have an issue the other wouldn't...? The LGs are different since I'm getting them from different breeders (so they'll deff be quarantined) - but these guys will be coming from the same place and will likely be shipped together... On this - if I'm wrong - let me know. LG people don't quarantine animals that came from the same breeder. 

And I don't think you are being harsh at all. I'm used to high-hp car guys arguing about stuff so your post was a ray of sunshine compared to all that crap lol. 

Only thing. Respectfully - since I don't have the experience you do - I've spoken with a few breeders from the NY Rep show last month and *ALL 3* of them use 10 gal cages for breeding leucs... They said 20 gals for the Azureus. 10 vertical they said was completely fine for one pair of leucs so long as they have a nice climbable background. 

Lets put it this way. If they look or even remotely appear to act stressed - They'll be in 20 gal cages so fast they won't know what hit 'em! Their welfare comes first of course.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i'm confused? are youtalking about leopard geckos? leapard geckos are not anywhere near as fragile or like darts.
It DOES NOT matter where you get your darts from, same place or not, they need to be quarantined a minimum 45 days and optimum 90 days. they also need to be fecaled consecutevely three times spaced apart about like 3 weeks. And those vivs are way too small for pairs of leucs or azureus. If you care about the darts, you will do what is right for thrm from the get-go. I've gotten darts from top breeders who are sponsors on this board. pairs that came from the same place.....for example, one pair of azureus came in with a very heavy load of lung and hookworm.....Dr.frye stated specifically it was a heavy burden. And belive me, when they came in, they looked gorgeous. 

Have you checked out the ASN protocols for quarantining and fecaling? you say you've done a lot of research, but it doesnt seem that way, especially when you are putting leucs and azureus in ten gallons, and on top of that, verticals. they are mainly terrestrial darts, not aboreal. And you also feel that they don't need to be quarantined? or fecaled? The search button works wonders 

good luck kristy


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

kristy55303 said:


> Have you checked out the ASN protocols for quarantining and fecaling? you say you've done a lot of research, but it doesnt seem that way, especially when you are putting leucs and azureus in ten gallons, and on top of that, verticals. they are mainly terrestrial darts, not aboreal. And you also feel that they don't need to be quarantined? or fecaled? The search button works wonders
> 
> good luck kristy


The leucs are going in verticals. Azureus in horizontals. Like I said. Azureus won't be going in 10 gal cages. Most sites (brians, AnimalDiversity, AND the breeders @ that show, etc) list Leucs as arboreal and Azureus as terrestrial?

I said they 100% WILL be fecaled. Don't know where you got the opposite idea. 

Quarantine is deff an option - I never said anything contrary to that either - I just asked you to explain WHY if they are coming from the same place and GOING to the same place. In otherwords - if one will have it - the pair will. I have no problem DOING this - I just want to understand the concept. 

"And you also feel that they don't need to be quarantined? or fecaled?"
^^^ Don't falsely quote me again please.  I'm new to dart frogs - doesn't mean i'm an idiot.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

...look

I know 10 gals is the recommended minimum for a pair of leucs. However - It's not like these little guys will be in a freakin' 5 gal plastic tub. As far as newly planted 10 gals go I think mine came out OK. It's not "BAD" but it's not the best environment either. I know 10 gals isn't the "optimum" but it'll do 'till we rebuild the room sometime next year.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> I built the room myself when I was building the kitchen. That wall has PT 2X4s - the house would literally fall on this room before anything would come off them. 4 3 inch wood screws into EACH bracket - each bracket on a PT 2X4... No worries there. ...at all... I'm sure bad things have happened with people in the past - but I've got a teeny bit of experience. I've completely rebuilt the bottom half of my house (supporting stuff too - not just aesthetics) in the past year so making shelves is pretty freakin' simple as compared to jacking up a house that had fallen on a 6X6 PT beam and replacing the support structure in the basement rooms.  I assure you. The shelves will not fail. The metal brackets would bend first anyways but each is rated to 50lbs so 50lbsX6 brackets... And those are the weaker metal brackets I used on the top 2 shelves. Those would be some OBESE cages to make them bend lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





MeiKVR6 said:


> The leucs are going in verticals. Azureus in horizontals. Like I said. Azureus won't be going in 10 gal cages. Most sites (brians, AnimalDiversity, AND the breeders @ that show, etc) list Leucs as arboreal and Azureus as terrestrial?.


leucs are terrestrial...but like to climb SOME. a horizontal 20 gallon tall for a pair would be a minimum i would do. 



MeiKVR6 said:


> I said they 100% WILL be fecaled. Don't know where you got the opposite idea. .


i dont know where you said they would be 100% fecaled. one fecal does not make a clean frog either. nor do fecals show everything that could be potentially wrong with the dart. Viruses, chytrid, fungal or bacterial infections etc. like i stated before. the purpose of q-tine is to both observe the frog and do fecals. three...not just one. like i stated before.



MeiKVR6 said:


> Quarantine is deff an option - I never said anything contrary to that either - I just asked you to explain WHY if they are coming from the same place and GOING to the same place. In otherwords - if one will have it - the pair will. I have no problem DOING this - I just want to understand the concept.
> 
> "And you also feel that they don't need to be quarantined? or fecaled?"
> ^^^ Don't falsely quote me again please.  I'm new to dart frogs - doesn't mean i'm an idiot.


i think i explained why they need to be quarantined and fecaled properly. 

i didnt falsely quote you as far as i could tell. you are new. ok. trying to help you not lose darts due to stress, and stress you may not see visually either...just a note ...so how could you possibly tell they are stessed if they don't outwardly display it, small vivs, and disease all come into play.... they need to be quarantined properly and fecaled properly. . Forgive me for trying to help a newbie. Some won't even respond to help a newbie as the same questions or opinions of the newbie get posted over and over. like i said the search button works wonders....especially now since the board has been re-formatted. 
kristy


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

rule of thumb. ten gallons per frog. good rule. make sure you know whether they are definately a more aboreal species or terrestrial. both leucs and azureus climb but are considered a terrestrial species. which means they need 20 gallon horizontals...a 20 gallon tall should be the minimum. kristy
i have a ton of darts in q-tine. its a pain in the butt but i do it for their sake. my tincs go into 40 gallon cubes or 40 gallon breeders. My sig wont fit how many darts i have. a small collection to some, but more like 63+ darts. kristy


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

There's the info.

Ok so quarantine is a must then. Deff a pain - but I have more than enough cages do make it happen easily. 

Fecaling was always in the plans. I could have sworn I said that but looking again I was wrong.  Sorry for the hostility on that one. 

Azureus stuff won't be happening for another year at least... When we tackle that - we'll be using some 20 gal cages for the breeders. The main things Kate and I are doing is Bell, Tang, and APTOR LGs as well as different substrates and other stuff we can get thru New England. 

I hope I didn't sound unappreciative - I'm deff new to darts. It's just I wanted to understand the concept of quarantining a bit better and you explained that one in your last post.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> There's the info.
> 
> Ok so quarantine is a must then. Deff a pain - but I have more than enough cages do make it happen easily.
> 
> ...


great. we are off to a better start lol you dont necessarily have to quarantine in vivs. they become heavy to wash out IMO . joshsfrogs and superiorenterprise(bulk supply make sure you order lids though and not pre-punched containers)CHEAP 190 0z clear containers are great for quarantining. for a regular quarantine i put one adult dart per 190 0z container. they stack. works wonders. i put new zealand spahnum moss in and seed with springtails so it wont have to be changed for 2-3 weeks. i then make a makeshift sanitized with 10% bleach. rinse well...cocohut. plastic cups work wonders to cut then sanitize. add some pothos clippings. 15 second dip into 10% bleach and rinse well and dry with paper towel. If fecals show some nasties. use paper towel substrate. dr. frye is a great vet to get fecals done. 18.00 per group of frogs, not per frog plus overnight shipping not to arrive on wed. when he is out though and get results next day when they arrive. he will tell you what you need to traet if you do or not. just remember to get three fecals as i have had frogs fecaled clean until third came up with hook worm. a beach to get rid of sometimes. then you got to do the treatment recommended by him and start all over with the fecals. time consuming and a pain in the arse...yes...worth it in the long run definately. hope this helps. no offense taken kristy

p.s. dr. fryes first aid kit comes in very handy when getting into this hobby. that way if something happens and you email him and he says the dart needs this treatment, chances are you will have the treatments on hand and wont have to wait for shipping and more problems with the darts. better to treat asap than later. i would recommend getting his panacur(i get three tablespoons full), metronidazole(nees to be kept in dark), ssd, and baytril . kristy


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Does he have a website? 

(I have TONS of panacur already ready for the LGs so that works out great - I didn't think they'd use the same meds!)


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Does he have a website?
> 
> (I have TONS of panacur already ready for the LGs so that works out great - I didn't think they'd use the same meds!)


here is his email. tell him what you want and how to send in fecals. 
[email protected]

oh and i dont know which panacur ou use, but for darts its the powder kind and he'll tell ya from the fecals how to use it. say you have hook or lung worm....he usually prescribe a 4 week treatment where you dust feeder insects say monday......change out quarantine tuesday....and so on for four weeks, then you retest 3 times spaced apart to see if the parasites in question are gone. I have had a need for all of those prescriptions i listed within the last year on some of my darts. they come in very handy when you email dr.frye with a concern and he says well you already have this so treat with this and that....works wonders. kristy


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Quarantine is deff an option - I never said anything contrary to that either - I just asked you to explain WHY if they are coming from the same place and GOING to the same place. In otherwords - if one will have it - the pair will. I have no problem DOING this - I just want to understand the concept.


I think the major benefit of quarantining frogs coming from the same place going to the same place would be to help eliminate cross contamination to the rest of your collection. It looks like you will have room for a lot of tanks. You certainly don't want to risk a nasty pathogen to that collection.

The best place to quarantine is in another building (Zoos can do this). If that cannot happen (which for most of us holds true) then another room in your house. If that cannot happen, then as far away from your collection as possible. Remember, always wash hands between going from tank to tank and work with the quarantine frogs/tanks last. This would even mean working with/treating frogs with known pathogens in quarantine last.

I like your set-ups. You put a lot of thought into them. I was looking at those heavy duty brackets the other day at a local home center. They look real strong.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks again guys.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Spent all of today talking to 2 diff vets, going on tons of websites, and basically doing lots of reading for the LGs and frogs.

Kristy (not trying to start an argument - just keeping facts straight) - Many many people disagree w/10 gal vertical tanks being too small for these leucs. However *everyone* said, "bigger wouldn't hurt - and would probably benefit the frogs" So. Deff good advice on your part there. If I was doing this all over again - i'd have gotten 20 verts as you suggested. There's no reason to be at the bare minimum when a 20 gal cage is only ~$15 more.

As for Azureus tanks - 10Hs are supposed to be 100% fine for a pair. Nobody said those cages are too small. Same deal tho. "bigger wouldn't hurt". I'll be keeping the 2 10H cages I have made up - and getting 20s for the rest when/if we keep the frog collection growing.

I also did a TON of research on LGs today. Where I seem to be at the minimum end of cage requirements for these frogs - I went CRAZY overkill on the dang geckos. lol  What a day!

(and my new puppy has an eye infection!!!) 
Ella:


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Great looking dog is that a boxer?


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Kristy (not trying to start an argument - just keeping facts straight) - Many many people disagree w/10 gal vertical tanks being too small for these leucs. However *everyone* said, "bigger wouldn't hurt - and would probably benefit the frogs" So. Deff good advice on your part there. If I was doing this all over again - i'd have gotten 20 verts as you suggested. There's no reason to be at the bare minimum when a 20 gal cage is only ~$15 more.
> 
> As for Azureus tanks - 10Hs are supposed to be 100% fine for a pair. Nobody said those cages are too small. Same deal tho. "bigger wouldn't hurt". I'll be keeping the 2 10H cages I have made up - and getting 20s for the rest when/if we keep the frog collection growing.


Actually - just to be a bit more accurate - I've read that many _Americans_ think 10 gallons are "okay" for a breeding pair. Were you to ask someone over here, the answer generally would be "at least 33 gallons for 1.1 or 2.1 tincs".
Crazy how the acceptable size for a tank depends on the location of the frogs' owner, eh? 

Cute pup you have there, too bad about the nasty eye infection. We've had to deal with that as well over time (we've owned dogs for about twenty years now). I hope she's been to the vet yet or is going there soon? Her eyes might not look too bad yet, but anything concerning the eyes is not to be trifled with.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i didnt mean 20 verts, i meant twenty horizontal talls .....that being a bare minimum for both species. try vivarium concepts rule of thumb. 1 dart per ten gallons i think cindy states....pat nabors...i know he states 20 gallon talls minimum as i've read it a long time ago. who has said ten gallons vertical are ok fro leucs? or azureus for that matter? not everyone on this board, and i know quite a bit of people i would venture to guess agree with me. my tincs go in 20 gallon talls and i think that is too small. so i have upgraded to 40 breeders or 40 gallon cubes. Otherwise, yes you will get breeding more often probably, cuz there is no where to go....just next to eachother . like stress-induced breeding. not ok in my opinion. but you are free to do what you want to do. i wish you luck woith the darts and with the pup...cutie pie kristy


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Yep she's a boxer. 

She's been to the vet freakin' 6 times in the past 3 months. Throat infections, kennel cough (even tho she's from a reputable breeder - she caught it in puppy class), and now this eye infection.

Her puppy class is probably to blame for most of her ailments. 

Regardless. She's the biggest sweetheart ever.

I deff agree 10s are small. I'd have done it differently if I came on here first. Hopefully future people will read this thread and go a bit bigger.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

yes...i did ten gallon too...in the beginning, and my darts would breed like mad. if you think about it though, once i moved my cobalts to a 40 gallon cube, they bred like once a week still, even though before they were breeding twice a week and had even seen three. In the end, with my bigger space in the vivs, i noticed they seemed happier, the male wasn't so "still" and his appetite increased like crazy and was calling all the time though the female felt the need to breed once a week only. once a week was so prolific still i was up to my ears in tads. so when you do change to bigger vivs, you'll see the difference. they ended up getting a minor bacterial infection in the small viv, so i don't know if that stress could have benn linked to it or not. i was a newbie and try to help those who are new not make the same mistakes, though i dont know how 40 gallons would fit on those shelves So I would do what you can right now with the resources you have, and when you decide differently, i'll be here to congratulate you. still here supporting you, so no worries. you certainly put a lot of time into your room and your gecko room. I do have to admit it looks very good.

keep that puppy healthy. i hate those training classes. its like how i hated when my children went to daycare. they were always home with strep throat grrrr! and the flu....and passed it to everyone in the house. we hired a nanny since, and have had much better success. hopefully the pup is training well and won't have to go that much. thats a real bummer. Cute as the pup is, its the heart that makes you melt. kristy


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## topherlove (Jul 14, 2006)

Absolutely adorable boxer. I have two myself. Lucy and brody. My male looks very similar to your female. I'll post some pics if i get the time.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Kate and I will be joining TWI/ASN soon. We're reading thru all the paperwork this afternoon.

No way would a 40 gallon fit on my shelves lol. 20 H tall will tho. 

The more I see 20HT cages - the more I like what can be done. (waterfalls, etc) I'm really, really considering switching sooner than later.

Hopefully next week we'll be getting our first animals in. Tang Leopard Geckos. 










BTW - Ella (the boxer) has grown up quite a bit - that's an old pic.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

I know plenty of breeders that keep darts in 10 gallon tanks and they produce like mad. That beign said, I wouldn't do it myself, but who is to tell who what the minimum requirement is for their frogs? Basically all of the aquariums we have in "captivity" are dwarf compared to their natural habitat. There are many factors to cages, like the surface area provided by branches, plants, etc. 

I think this thread is a bit out of control and someone trying to TELL another person how to do THEIR frog room. Forcing information on someone, yet trying to tell them to search? This is the type of thing that drives me away from Dendroboard.

And why all of the TWI/ASn talk? Edit, last post, lol


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Yep she's a boxer.
> 
> She's been to the vet freakin' 6 times in the past 3 months. Throat infections, kennel cough (even tho she's from a reputable breeder - she caught it in puppy class), and now this eye infection.
> 
> Her puppy class is probably to blame for most of her ailments.


Darn. That sucks big time. I have to admit none of our dogs have ever been to puppy class so I didn't know that the infections are going around like crazy there. 

That leopard gecko looks really nice (and I'm saying this even though I'm in love with Lygodactylus and Sphaerodactylus geckos. )



Derek Benson said:


> That beign said, I wouldn't do it myself, but who is to tell who what the minimum requirement is for their frogs?


Hmm, you've got me interested now; isn't there any law regarding minimum requirements for keeping poison dart frogs (or other amphibians) in America?


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Boxers are the best!!!
Candy


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Sarkany said:


> Hmm, you've got me interested now; isn't there any law regarding minimum requirements for keeping poison dart frogs (or other amphibians) in America?


No laws like that of any kind (for most "pet" animals). Which is good and bad...

Good because we (responsible pet owners) are free to do what we want.
Bad because irresponsible pet owners can do what they want... 'till they are caught.

There is a government branch devoted to the fair treatment of animals (ASPCA) and they can arrest, prosecute, and put people in jail for animal neglect/abuse.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

divingne1 said:


> Boxers are the best!!!
> Candy


Yeah they are! My Ella likes the computer lol:


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> No laws like that of any kind (for most "pet" animals). Which is good and bad...


Huh - strange. We do - for practically everything one can keep including fish, excluding insects. 

To your next post: I love it when a dog starts barking or whining on TV - our dogs' ears will shoot right up.


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## brog32 (Oct 28, 2005)

Boxers are def. the best! I dont know what I would do without mine.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

brog32 said:


> Boxers are def. the best! I dont know what I would do without mine.


Haha that's a great avatar


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

VIVs have changed so much in the past 3 months. Most of the broms became HUGE and were removed and sold, ivy was added, a few misc tropical plants were added, flytraps were added then removed, a ficus was added to one of the tanks (but will soon be removed), the moss has become heavily acclimated, a UV sterilizer was added to the holding tank, aaaaand oh did I mention I finally have frogs? 

3 Azureus- one Leuc. 

The leuc is absolutely NOT terrestrial. She spends 90% of her time climbing up and down the background like it's her job. She seems very happy - just a little nervous around people.

The Azureus on the other hand? They are shameless. All day they are out hunting and relaxing in the water pools. Not nearly as shy as the leuc is. I've tried my best sexing the 3 frogs - my guess is I have 1 male and 2 females.  That's fine w/me! 

Gecko stuff (not that this is a gecko forum) is going really well. 10 geckos - all but one are designer morphs. It makes my day. One is gravid - the others are on their way.

Pics in a few minutes.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Ella is growing up!



























Fat and happy.


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

Congrats on the success. Just watch for signs of aggression between the two female azures. Those things can get out of hand quickly.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Luckily I planned for that - I have all 3 Azureus in separate cages 'till I am 100% sure on sex - and even then they'll probably stay apart 'till they are of decent size for breeding.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

Hey Mike! Give us an update on your room.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

chinoanoah said:


> Hey Mike! Give us an update on your room.


Oh wow it's come a really, really, long way. As has my understanding of dart frog keeping.  It's amazing how much someone can learn in a couple years.  I'll start a new thread.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Spent all of today talking to 2 diff vets, going on tons of websites, and basically doing lots of reading for the LGs and frogs.
> 
> Kristy (not trying to start an argument - just keeping facts straight) - Many many people disagree w/10 gal vertical tanks being too small for these leucs. However *everyone* said, "bigger wouldn't hurt - and would probably benefit the frogs" So. Deff good advice on your part there. If I was doing this all over again - i'd have gotten 20 verts as you suggested. There's no reason to be at the bare minimum when a 20 gal cage is only ~$15 more.
> 
> ...


She`s grown some Mike!

John


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Yeah she did John! 










Man I was wrong about a lot of stuff when I started! (10G for a pair of leucs?!







) Ugh. Glad I did more research before I got any frogs.


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