# Substrate?!



## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Once I get my new dart viv going I am not sure what substrate toget. I've got about 5'' to work with and it's a 20(h)x20(w)x32(l). I am doing the clay balls on the bottom for circulation and wanted some kind of soil mixture for the plants. Any reccomendations?


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I recommend ABG from Josh's Frogs... It holds up forever!


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

what he said, or you can make your own. I just used, jungle bed, coco husk, cypress mulch, fire bark, sphagnam moss, and carbon charlco.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

B-NICE said:


> what he said, or you can make your own. I just used, jungle bed, coco husk, cypress mulch, fire bark, sphagnam moss, and carbon charlco.


These are all things the plants will like too?


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Absolutely! It provides great nutrition and microhabitat, as well as perfect drainage for vivarium friendly plants!


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

ABG mix from Josh's is great stuff


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

alright awesome. I dont want to buy stuff from josh's no offense to them but the prices are high, its the same for everywhere. if i were to go to menards or home depot and get some organic soil, peat moss would that work? and anythign else you woudl reccomend?


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

B-NICE said:


> what he said, or you can make your own. I just used, jungle bed, coco husk, cypress mulch, fire bark, sphagnam moss, and carbon charlco.


I'm with B-NICE...Either or you should be set! I make my own with peat moss mix, sphagnam moss, tree fern fiber, coco husk, and cowboy brand charcoal. Works very well and the plants love it. If you dont want to make it yourself, get a few bags of ABG mix and call it a day


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

no is the simple quick answer, at least not nearly as well as all the other suggestions you have had listed on this thread.its too dense and water retentive in a moist viv. if you want to save just look up the abg thread on how to make your own. hardest thing to get is the tree fern fiber but even that isnt hard to find online.


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

unless you have a lot of vivs or a really really big one, it would be cheaper to buy from Josh's honestly otherwise you are going to have a crap ton of materials left over. What size tank are we talking?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pacblu202 said:


> alright awesome. I dont want to buy stuff from josh's no offense to them but the prices are high, its the same for everywhere. if i were to go to menards or home depot and get some organic soil, peat moss would that work? and anythign else you woudl reccomend?


Drainage, drainage, drainage. Organic soil and peat moss will very quickly become waterlogged and kill the roots of your plants. An overly wet substrate can also cause foot rot and kill your frogs. Straight up, I don't think you are versed enough in substrate materials and the importance of good drainage to successfully design your own substrate. Besides, for all the materials it will take to do it right, you are going to spend WAY more money than just buying a bag or three of ABG mix from Josh's frogs.
You have to understand that our humid, moist, vivs are very different from a potted plant. Conventional mixes will not work.
I realize that you are trying to save money, but when your plants begin wilting and dieing from a poor substrate mix, where is the money saved? If you become yet another post with pictures of your frogs feet and legs rotting off, where is the money saved?


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

Pacblu202 said:


> I've got about 5'' to work with and it's a 20(h)x20(w)x32(l).


Its a 55 gallon if im not mistaken (assumming the measurements are in inches). 

Pacblu, if you are going to make you're own, its easiest to find the abg ratio and try to buy the supplies in that ratio. (i.e. if its 3:2:1 spagnum, peat, charcoal ....def not right, but......then buy 3 gals spagnum, 2 peat, and 1 gal charcoal.
Its just easier and then you can just mix everything together without worriing about the measurments. Then you have extra already made for other vivs!!

Here's the dendroboard thread about the abg recipe..
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38881-abg-mix-recipe.html

Also, just a quick calculation, if you are going to have about 3 inches of abg on top of the hydroton, then you will want about 10 gallons of abg mix. Just a frame of reference if you are going to buy it from Joshs or make your own...

Hope it helps

-Jeremy


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jermajestyg said:


> Here's the dendroboard thread about the abg recipe..
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38881-abg-mix-recipe.html
> -Jeremy


That thread has several different recipes claiming to be ABG mix. For starters there is no coco fiber in ABG mix. The proper recipe is in the first post here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Drainage, drainage, drainage. Organic soil and peat moss will very quickly become waterlogged and kill the roots of your plants. An overly wet substrate can also cause foot rot and kill your frogs. Straight up, I don't think you are versed enough in substrate materials and the importance of good drainage to successfully design your own substrate. Besides, for all the materials it will take to do it right, you are going to spend WAY more money than just buying a bag or three of ABG mix from Josh's frogs.
> You have to understand that our humid, moist, vivs are very different from a potted plant. Conventional mixes will not work.
> I realize that you are trying to save money, but when your plants begin wilting and dieing from a poor substrate mix, where is the money saved? If you become yet another post with pictures of your frogs feet and legs rotting off, where is the money saved?


agreed. Plus i think a 2" layer of ABG is plenty for majority of viv plants

like i said if you are only doing one viv is probably easier and more cost effective to just buy it premade from a retailer like Josh's plus if you can get some other supplies you need and get a total of 50 bucks or more the shipping is free. Stock up on some stuff, FF media, supplements, etc. I'd take Dougs advice, he makes his own ABG mix because he has a lot of vivs were its more cost effective for him to make his own, and just like he pointed out make sure you are following the proper recipe if you do make your own


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I typically use an average of 2" of substrate, topped with another 2" of leaf litter.


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> I typically use an average of 2" of substrate, topped with another 2" of leaf litter.


ditto, i feel anything more is too much


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

Yea sorry for the "wrong/ not perfect" info haha
I havent set up a viv for darts myself yet, im more into reptiles. 
In the thread i posted, it said that coco cior was not a part of it farther down, but i guess starting off with the right info is better 
Always learning,

-Jeremy

P.S. What about substituting long coco fibers with the tree fern? I dont think it will bog down as much as coco cior... Just an idea, shoot me down if im wrong haha


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

J Teezy said:


> ditto, i feel anything more is too much


Why? I'd say 2" is fine but should be the minimum....you don't need 6" of sub, but 3" gives the plants more room to root (and gives springs more room to hide/reproduce)...not a bad thing at all.



jermajestyg said:


> P.S. What about substituting long coco fibers with the tree fern? I dont think it will bog down as much as coco cior... Just an idea, shoot me down if im wrong haha


It won't serve the same purpose. Treefern fiber (at least the good stuff) is stiff, very different from soft coco fibers. The tf fiber will help prevent compaction of the soil, the coco fibers wont. Plus the coco fibers will not last anywhere near as long as the tf fiber. Good idea though!


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

wow guys great stuff ive learned. yeah i was just kinda throwing a rough idea of stuff when i said what i aws goin to use i hadnt done much research. I will use what you guys said. I feel 3'' like pimilo? i believe said was a good amount. I will look into that recipe and make a bunch. i dont mind having extra because if i ever need to do a small soil change in any certain area or somethign its good to have it on hand. and yes the dimensions were in inches. itll be 55 gallons iwht maybe 2 gallons in the back cut out for where the pumps will be hidden for the small water feature.
anything i missed?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pacblu202 said:


> wow guys great stuff ive learned. yeah i was just kinda throwing a rough idea of stuff when i said what i aws goin to use i hadnt done much research. I will use what you guys said. I feel 3'' like pimilo? i believe said was a good amount. I will look into that recipe and make a bunch. i dont mind having extra because if i ever need to do a small soil change in any certain area or somethign its good to have it on hand. and yes the dimensions were in inches. itll be 55 gallons iwht maybe 2 gallons in the back cut out for where the pumps will be hidden for the small water feature.
> anything i missed?


Actually, I said 2". Nothing wrong with 3" but my plants have all done fine with 2" and that leaves me more room for more leaf litter. Don't forget to get your leaf litter and lots of it!


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Actually, I said 2". Nothing wrong with 3" but my plants have all done fine with 2" and that leaves me more room for more leaf litter. Don't forget to get your leaf litter and lots of it!


how could i?!? and yeah it was fieldnstream whoops lol i knew someone said it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm going to stress an item... make sure the water in the drainage layer has an air gap to prevent saturation of the substrate. 

Ed


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Ed said:


> I'm going to stress an item... make sure the water in the drainage layer has an air gap to prevent saturation of the substrate.
> 
> Ed


air gap? sounds self exlpanatory but how would i achieve that?

edit:

egg crate? i just thought about that. would that be what u mean? its soo expensive to get so any other options if that is what you would mean?


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

i haven't had any problems with about 2" of soil either. My plants are all doing fine and growing very fast actually. I contribute this to good soil, good misting cycle, nice LED bulb, and a false bottom with a drain in the bottom of the tank so there is very little excess water in my tank. Even got a baby tears fern growing on a piece of driftwood, with no soil at all for the roots. Grows great and stays green.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Pacblu202 said:


> air gap? sounds self exlpanatory but how would i achieve that?
> 
> edit:
> 
> egg crate? i just thought about that. would that be what u mean? its soo expensive to get so any other options if that is what you would mean?


This hobby is expensive. However, if you don't cut costs to save money you will have a tank that will last a very, very long time. If you try to save 20-40 bucks you may have to fix your problems, replace expensive plants, or replace expensive frogs. So, I would suggest taking your time building it to save money and to do it right. Otherwise, you might regret it later.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pacblu202 said:


> air gap? sounds self exlpanatory but how would i achieve that?
> 
> edit:
> 
> egg crate? i just thought about that. would that be what u mean? its soo expensive to get so any other options if that is what you would mean?


Yes, eggcrate on some small risers with a piece of fiberglass window screen on top. Put your substrate on top of that. For example, if your window screen sits at 2", with your substrate on top of that, then you never let your water level get above about 1" high. This way you always have an air gap between your drainage water and your substrate.


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

Same thing with the hydroton...If you have 2 inches of that covering the entire bottom (no need for false bottom if using hydroton), then you can only have a max of about 1 inch of water in the bottom of the tank before you siphon it or drain if you have a bulkhead installed.

-Jeremy


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

hydroton will wick water back into the substrate so if you use it be careful


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## MosquitoCoast (Nov 16, 2009)

I got serious about PDF's back in November and the biggest mystery for me was how to construct the proper vivarium for them and the plants and wood that would go with them.

I can not begin to tell you how many pictures I've looked at and how many videos I've watched trying to figure out how it was done. So much of it was a mystery to me, but I looked, read, and asked questions. One of the biggest questions I had was the drainage layer.

I would suggest going to Josh's Frogs and look at their basic construction video and go from there. Forget about all that fancy waterfall stuff for now --- you"ll spend the next year just learning what plants do well in that high humidity and the proper placement of them...with some plants it makes a real difference if you put them in the front or back of the terrarium.

Here's what I came up with...Two inches of hydroton, a mixture of ABG mix, equal amounts of the soil that is sold by Jungle Box with some Zoo Med coco fibre and a little organic potting soil to help extend the mix. I like the Jungle Box mix because it has sand in it. Once I mixed it together I followed the procedure set-out by Josh's Frogs--- Hydroton - weed block - soil - long sphagnum moss - leaf litter...

The soil mixture itself was really rich. Three days after I planted my Neoregalia fireball it was already sprouting little purple flowers.

My vivarium is just now turning a month old and I'm still a couple of months away from buying frogs. I also don't have a fogger or a misting system. I lightly spray the tank three times a day with a hand mister.

Please understand this...When I go to buy my desired frogs, D. Leucomelas, I'm going to buy at least three or four. With shipping its going to cost me an easy $200.00. I already have that same amount invested in my terrarium.

This is not a cheap hobby or pet. 

By the way...I still haven't seeded my tank with spring tails or begin to start my fly cultures.

Good luck and I hope you have success.


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

i find dart frog hobby cheaper than most. The initial cost is in the setup, once you get the viv built and running and add the frogs your only real cost from their is your FF's which if you culture yourself isn't really that much. Dogs and cats are way more expensive. Reef tanks are way more expensive, fresh water tanks are not as bad but i would say still more expensive than a dart frog setup. Even setting up a dart frog tank can be not that expensive. The good thing about dart frog tanks over everything else above is they pretty much maintain themselves. I spend maybe 30 minutes total a week on my tank (feed 3 times a day, make cultures and spot clean 1 time a week)


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

jermajestyg said:


> Same thing with the hydroton...If you have 2 inches of that covering the entire bottom (no need for false bottom if using hydroton), then you can only have a max of about 1 inch of water in the bottom of the tank before you siphon it or drain if you have a bulkhead installed.
> 
> -Jeremy


im using the hydroton balls. is there something i should put between that and the soil or will it be fine?


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I'd recommend putting fiberglass screen or weed block between the hydroton and soil... You can even put sphagnum moss instead of the mesh but it has a tendency to work its way into the hydroton and get soggy...

-Christian


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

okay. i have a HUGE roll of weedblock in my garage so ill just toss that in.


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

ABG is awesome. I considered making my own but then I realized exactly what everyone is saying. All the ingredients in ABG are sold only in large quantities. You will spend a couple hundred on ABG if you try to make it yourself. You can get just a few of the bags from josh's for much cheaper. I have only ever used ABG so cant really compare to other substrates, but it works great for me!


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

Heres a little teaser..... im working on a mini-zoo type thing with multiple over 100 gal tanks. (more of a variety of animals, not just darts, but still...pretty awesome).
Im assuming that for that quantity of abg, making my own will be more cost effective....
I dont think buying a hundred bags of Josh's abg will help me cut costs haha

-Jeremy


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Alright so i have gotten some GREAT!!! info from all of this. Thanks a bunch guys. One last thing to go over is how to layer it all up. This is pretty much what i have gotten out of all this. I am going to drill a hole in the bottom of the cage so i can put a small drainage valve in so the water levels never get beyond an inch. for substrate itll be as follows:

____________________
leaf litter
Soil mixture- 2-3"
Weed Block cloth liner
^ ~2" Hydroton^

How does that sound?

And for the drainage valve, should i try to keep it flush with the bottom of the tank or should i have it raised up like 1/4"?


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

Pacblu202 said:


> Alright so i have gotten some GREAT!!! info from all of this. Thanks a bunch guys. One last thing to go over is how to layer it all up. This is pretty much what i have gotten out of all this. I am going to drill a hole in the bottom of the cage so i can put a small drainage valve in so the water levels never get beyond an inch. for substrate itll be as follows:
> 
> ____________________
> leaf litter
> ...


um let me help you here. If you are going to put a drain in the bottom of the tank (meaning the bottom pane of glass) then you don't need hyrdoton because once the water gets higher than the flange of the bulkhead it will start to drain out, so unless you are planning on using standpipe as well, which i don't know why you would, then scrape the hydroton and go with an eggcrate FB in my opinion. Thats what i do in my tanks, is put drains in the bottom pain so there's only like 1/8" of water in my tanks bottom because thats about how thick the flange on the bulkhead is.

If you are going to put the drain in any of the sides or back piece of glass then you could use hydroton and you would want to make the hyrdoton layer a bit higher than the bulkhead. If it were me again, and i was putting it somewhere beside the bottom glass, i would probably put it in the back glass and make it so the bulkheads lower lip (where the water would start to drain out at, so that it was as close to the bottom of the tank as possible (you have to be careful with this because the closer to the edge of the glass you drill the more chance for an easy crack to happen. For safety i'd probably have the bottom lip of the bulkhead 1" from the bottom glass and again i would use eggcrate over hydroton. I find it pointless to use hyrdroton if you are installing a drain, but that's just me. I'd only use hydroton if i was planning to siphon the water out manually when it got so high, and even then i'd probably still not use hydroton, i just don't like it, it wicks water back to the substrate. I feel like with hydroton you need to monitor the tank more than you do without it and using eggcrate FB and the less time i have to spend monitoring the water level underneath my substrate the better


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

alright. well this will be a decision then... so what would you recommend in terms of drain placement with out the the balls? Ive heard that you dont like them but others swear by them. by wicking it back into the soil do you mean that the soil just stay more moist?


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Pacblu202 said:


> alright. well this will be a decision then... so what would you recommend in terms of drain placement with out the the balls? Ive heard that you dont like them but others swear by them. by wicking it back into the soil do you mean that the soil just stay more moist?


Yes, if your soil is always wet by wicking it can grow a bacteria that is very bad. Having a drain in the bottom is super easy to prevent this problem. You can get bulkheads online for about 12 bucks with shipping. Just make sure your tank does not have tempered glass. If you have an exo-terra, they don't use tempered glass. However, I still recommend calling their customer service to verify.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I prefer a false bottom instead of LECA. I drill on the back wall, making sure the edge of your hole will be AT LEAST 1/2" away from the edge of your glass. An inch away is safer. This will naturally leave at least one inch of water in your false bottom at all times. I feel this helps with humidity.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/58594-how-drill-your-glass.html


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> I prefer a false bottom instead of LECA. I drill on the back wall, making sure the edge of your hole will be AT LEAST 1/2" away from the edge of your glass. An inch away is safer. This will naturally leave at least one inch of water in your false bottom at all times. I feel this helps with humidity.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/58594-how-drill-your-glass.html


Its acrylic so i can drill it easily with little problem. so then how deep of a false bottom should i have?


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

if you are going to make a false bottom with drain then your FB should be above the drain bulkhead.

Doug likes to do his in one of the side or back glass, i like to do mine in the bottom of my tanks


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

yeah i was kind of thinking bottom too since i feel it would drain easier but at the same time i would have to then drill a hole in the stand/table i put it on for the bulkhead to drain through. I think im just going to go on the back side. I am going to menards/home depot tomorrow to look into some stuff for a false bottom. they have the egg crate for pretty cheap, i think like $10.00 or so.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

ive been looking into a lot on FB's and am torn between LECA or egg crate... have even heard egg then leca on top. what would be the best way ya guy think?


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I think putting leca on top of egg crate is an unnecessary redundancy... It's really just personal preference in my opinion which one you use. I prefer to use egg crate instead of leca because it is much more lightweight. I also like it because it is easier to drain in my opinion. I build an egg crate box (wrapped in fiberglass mesh) that sits against the back glass of the tank and leave 1/2 - 3/4 inch gap around the sides and front of the tank which I fill in with black gravel... It allows you to monitor the water level of the false bottom while providing a clean look.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Okay. I may even just paint the exposed part black. who knows. So leave it up only 3/4 of an inch? and what about making hills in the tank? should i just add more dirt in those areas or should i use scrap egg crate to fashion something up


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I make my false bottom 3-4 squares high... I make a box out of it that fits inside, nestled up against the back of the tank with a gap around the sides and front large enough to fill with aquarium pea-sized gravel. You can make the box cover the entire bottom if you like 

As for creating floor geography, you can do all sorts of stuff... I like using cork for that.

-Christian


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Alright. Any other things tht people use instead of the pea gravel. I've seen those setup and am not too partial to how that looks.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Turface works well as a pea-gravel replacement. Once it becomes saturated it turns a nice shade of medium brown. Plus its super cheap...and has tons of uses.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Thats what I'm talking about! Haha and do any stores carry this or is it just something I'll have to get from one of the vendors like Josh's or black jungle


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

This is where I got mine: Ewing Irrigation and Landscape Products - Home
$7 for a 50 lb bag...cant beat it.


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## J Teezy (Jan 25, 2012)

if you don't like the gravel look that hides the eggcrate just paint everything below the substrate or use black contact paper


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SnakePaparazzi said:


> I make my false bottom 3-4 squares high... I make a box out of it that fits inside, nestled up against the back of the tank with a gap around the sides and front large enough to fill with aquarium pea-sized gravel. You can make the box cover the entire bottom if you like
> 
> As for creating floor geography, you can do all sorts of stuff... I like using cork for that.
> 
> -Christian


Over time, the gravel filled area gets filled with detritus (for those old aquarium fish hobbists "mulm") and algae growths which cause it to not look as nice as it did originally. You may want to just cover the area with black contact paper as was noted elsewhere or paint if you want a consistent clean look. 

Ed


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Alright I'm liking turface, what kind? I've read that there's more than one


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

I use the Turface MVP


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

I like to cover the areas I don't want to see with window tenting. It isn't very expensive, it has a clean finish. and it is easy to install (on the outside of the tank)


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

not sure which one u need. maybe someone else will fill you in on that. here's their website
MVP Calcined Clay | Turface Athletics


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Yeah i like the look of turface more than just painting black. i mean ill paint a lot of the tank black anyhow since itll have the Greatstuff over a good chunk. Im doing the back and both sides in Greatstuff and may leave a bit opened on the side but its unlikely.


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

goof901 said:


> not sure which one u need. maybe someone else will fill you in on that. here's their website
> MVP Calcined Clay | Turface Athletics


I use MVP, but that's mostly because it's what the local landscaping place sells; it's a nice medium brown when wet. If you have multiple varieties available locally, the red infield conditioner looks like it would be pretty good looking also.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Damn I was just out and was supposed to check but I forgot lol whoops


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Here is the red turface I got for my viv. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-build-100-gallons-paludarium.html#post730522


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

I like the red -- is there much difference in shade between wet and dry? (MVP darkens a lot when wet)


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