# Phyllobates lugubris



## elblando (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi.
I have had frogs for about 4 months. I had previously thought I had three juvenile cryptophyllobates azuriventris but have since realised I actually have three young Phyllobates lugubris. I noticed there was no care sheet for these frogs and have read up on them on a few different sites but would like to know if anyone on here has kept them before? I have also read they are good community frogs and had wondered if anyone had any suggestions as to what i could keep with them? I have considered dendrobates fantasticus but they are quite expensive in the UK.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

They may be around in the US but they are hard to come.

Could we see a pic of yours?


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## elblando (Dec 8, 2008)

this is the best pic i can get with my camera and heres a pic of the set up their in too.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

very nice looking tank! i wouldnt keep them with any other frogs, especially since your new at this. its generally frowned upon to keep different morphs and species together because it causes the frogs a lot of stress and sometimes they can hybridize. just make a second tank as awesome looking as that one for another species


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

elblando said:


> Hi.
> I have had frogs for about 4 months. I had previously thought I had three juvenile cryptophyllobates azuriventris but have since realised I actually have three young Phyllobates lugubris. I noticed there was no care sheet for these frogs and have read up on them on a few different sites but would like to know if anyone on here has kept them before? I have also read they are good community frogs and had wondered if anyone had any suggestions as to what i could keep with them? I have considered dendrobates fantasticus but they are quite expensive in the UK.


I think when you hear thate the frog is a community frog they mean they can be kept in a nice size group together of the same species, not that they can be kept with other species. If lugabris is similar to vittatus you can kept them in a decent size group in that viv.

Very nice frogs tho


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## elblando (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks for the positive comments about my tank, it should look great when all the mosses have started to spread. I have been getting alot of my info about frogs from www.poison-frogs.com, a 2002 website dedicated to dart poison frogs and rainforest vivaria, together with lots of pictures, films and more. Descriptions of all dendrobates , epipedobates, phylobates, leucomelas, azureus, pumilio, tinctorius, auratus  (as well as here). Theres a alot of species profiles that have useful info like on here but there are a few extra speacies like lugubris. Plus the guy who made the site haseone huge vivarium, and his journal is worth a look too. 
It says on there that Lugubris is tollerant of other species. I have also read that they are often found in the wild along side many other species of dart frogs. I though a species like D. Fantasticus would be good as the don't like being on the ground much and may solve the problem of all the fruit flys escaping to the top of my viv. plus the is alot of space not being used though i may have to add a few more shelves and climbers.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi Elbando. Even though you seem to be set on it - I would also recommend not mixing these frogs with other species. Just because one (Dutch) website says it's ok does not make it so. This forum is frequented by people who have kept frogs for a long while and in general most people know what they are talking about. 

You asked in your first post in this thread if it would be OK to mix these frogs. You got two reasonable responses from Adam and George that it would not be a good idea. Yet, in your very next post you ask again - this time if you can mix fants with phyllos. Basically, ignoring the very sound advice you had just been given (isn't that why you posted in the first place - for advice?) 

If you had checked into it at all, you would have found out that A) Fants are very expensive. B) Fants are known to be one of the shier and more fragile frogs. Not a good choice for mixing with one of the larger species.

I'm not trying to be rude - I'm just wondering why you are interested in a mixed tank? If you feel the Phyllos don't make as much use of your tank as you'd like, why not plan them a larger tank with more floor space. The use your current set up for other frogs - like fantasticus, if you feel you're up for it.

If you're just looking for someone to tell you it's ok to mix these frogs so you feel better about it - you are not likely to find that here.

With all that out of the way - I really like your tank! The planting is really good and I like the different levels and walkways you have going across the top. Honestly, this would make a very good tank for thumbs/smaller frogs because it has multiple levels and lots of depth. Take a look at vents, galacts, variabilis, imis or fants if you're interested in the smaller sp.

Welcome to the board!


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

They should feel fairly comfortable in a pretty densely planted enclosure. For the most part, _P. lugubris_ should be a fairly easy frog to keep (although breeding has proven difficult for many people...at least in the U.S.). They should take fruit flies (melanogaster as well as hydei) and slightly larger prey items such as freshly hatched crickets, wax wing larvae, bean beetles, etc. (think _P. vittatus_).

For more information about the species, I would recommend spending some time here: Translated version of http://www.dendrobase.de/index.php?gattung=Phyllobates&art=lugubris&id=12220=


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## elblando (Dec 8, 2008)

afterdark said:


> You asked in your first post in this thread if it would be OK to mix these frogs. You got two reasonable responses from Adam and George that it would not be a good idea. Yet, in your very next post you ask again - this time if you can mix fants with phyllos. Basically, ignoring the very sound advice you had just been given (isn't that why you posted in the first place - for advice?)
> 
> If you had checked into it at all, you would have found out that A) Fants are very expensive. B) Fants are known to be one of the shier and more fragile frogs. Not a good choice for mixing with one of the larger species.
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude - I'm just wondering why you are interested in a mixed tank? If you feel the Phyllos don't make as much use of your tank as you'd like, why not plan them a larger tank with more floor space. The use your current set up for other frogs - like fantasticus, if you feel you're up for it.


I did get two resonable responces however that isn't the end of my querie and if i'm going to do something or not as the case may be i always like to go into it in some depth so an informed descision can be made. I never stand for 
'should i do this?'
'NO!'
'ok then thats me told'
I realise it is generally frowned upon to mix frog species in a confined space but i was hoping to find someone who has had first hand experience trying this and find out why it isn't good to do, rather than just the general stories that everyone hears and accepts but doesn't ask 'why?'. I realise there must be some truth behind these stories but maybe it hasn't been done correctly in the past.
I mensioned keeping them together again in my next post because ggazonas said he though community indicated i could keep lots together but that isnt what i had read. I also expended in my reasoning being my querie. 
Setting up a second tank isnt really an option because of space issues and cost implications of making and running a secound tank. 
I spent around £550 setting up that tank (about $800) so doing it again isnt an option at the moment. 
The main thing is i'm not running out and buying more frogs and don't plan to. I'm just getting alot of information together for the moment. I appreciate all the advice i am getting from you all and if anyone else has any useful links then please post them. The one you posted skylsdale is great.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

well how about this....youve had dart frogs for a lot less time then people on here that are very experienced and know that you shouldnt mix. some have done it with success in very large tanks and with the correct care given to each species. you also didnt even know what kind of frog you had originally which isnt getting off to a good start. if you are not going to listen to us until you get the answer that you are already set on then you are in the wrong place. 

why dont you try starting a thread that says "anyone with 10+ years experience with darts who mixes please help" and see how many people reply. 

and you dont have to make another tank that is that amazing and expensive. you can make a vary decent tank for $100 pretty easily.

sorry if i come off as angry, just trying to get the point across.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Before this gets too heated, I would remind people just too cool down. It's a legitimate question, so let's treat it as such.

So, with that said, I'll add my own opinion to the matter. Personally, I would not mix species in that tank. While lugubris may be tolerant of other species, that is when they are not forced to interact with other species. It looks to me like that tank would force interactions.

Mixed tanks, in order to be successful, need to be large and need to keep frogs from being forced to interact. IMO, if you have a large tank that has frogs that use different parts of the tank, then it could work (i.e. one terrestrial and one arboreal), but only in cases where you have a large tank because terrestial frogs will climb and arboreal frogs will go to the ground, so if you can keep interactions between them minimal, it'd work.

Not only that, but I would only recommend mixing species that naturally occur together in the wild. Fantasticus would never see lugubris in the wild (or any phyllobates, I believe), so I wouldn't recommend mixing them. Species that evolve in sympatry have evolved to be accustomed to "personalities" of other species. While I don't know, it's very possible that personalities between lugubris and fantasticus would clash. If you wanted to mix with lugubris, you'd be restricted pretty much to pumilio or auratus (or Colostethus talamancae or Minyobates claudae), but I'd only really consider mixing them with pumilio since pumilio are more arboreal. I've found them literally next to each other in the wild, but they had plenty of space to get away from each other if necessary.

So while I've not mixed, based on my experiences and knowledge of species, I wouldn't recommend it unless you had a very large area for the species.

Just as a side note, are you sure that those are lugubris? All of the lugubris I've seen have had two stripes on either side of their dorsum. I've never seen them with that central blotching (not even juveniles).


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> If you wanted to mix with lugubris, you'd be restricted pretty much to pumilio or auratus (or Colostethus talamancae or Minyobates claudae), but I'd only really consider mixing them with pumilio since pumilio are more arboreal. I've found them literally next to each other in the wild, but they had plenty of space to get away from each other if necessary.


I agree...but must once again stress the importance of a large enclosure (e.g. at least 3x3x3'....90x90x90 cm). Haselhaus reports a setup containing lugubris, auratus, and pumilio...and even given plenty of space, he observed a pumilio attack, overtake, and flip over a lugubris just to get it out of his territory.



> Just as a side note, are you sure that those are lugubris? All of the lugubris I've seen have had two stripes on either side of their dorsum. I've never seen them with that central blotching (not even juveniles).


It's actually a suprisingly variable species. See: D. claudiae as well as the Dendrobase.de link I provided above. While it's hard to confirm elblando's frog from just the picture he provided, it is very possible that what he has is lugubris.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

skylsdale said:


> I agree...but must once again stress the importance of a large enclosure (e.g. at least 3x3x3'....90x90x90 cm). Haselhaus reports a setup containing lugubris, auratus, and pumilio...and even given plenty of space, he observed a pumilio attack, overtake, and flip over a lugubris just to get it out of his territory.


Right, I meant to say that I wouldn't mess with anything less than a several hundred gallon tank for mixing.



> It's actually a suprisingly variable species. See: D. claudiae as well as the Dendrobase.de link I provided above. While it's hard to confirm elblando's frog from just the picture he provided, it is very possible that what he has is lugubris.


Interesting. I do wonder where on Isla Colon that one was found because all of the ones I found on Colon looked like that second or third picture.


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## elblando (Dec 8, 2008)

Thank you very much monarchzman and skylsdale, firstly for recognising I asked a legitimate question and secondly for answering in a coherent manner and from personal experience rather than hearsay. You have answered pretty much all my question and I won’t be mixing, more importantly for me personally I know WHY I won’t be mixing. I'm in this hobby to learn, not just for the pleasure and the best way to learn is from those with firsthand experience if not trying it yourself. 
As for the lugubris and their middle blotching/stripe, I had read that localised populations from Costa Rica and Puerto Viejo often have half or complete centre stripes. My other two have a more defined stripe than the one I got a picture of. If I can get a decent camera I will try and take more photos.
I was unsure of their species when I first purchased them because they had not yet fully developed their full colouration and were sold to me under a common name, not scientific.
The link that skylsdale sent me Translated version of http://www.dendrobase.de/index.php?gattung=Phyllobates&art=lugubris&id=12220 has some very good pictures towards the bottom that are almost identical to my frogs. It says are the Puerto Viejo variety. 



thedude said:


> and you dont have to make another tank that is that amazing and expensive. you can make a vary decent tank for $100 pretty easily.


When i do things like this i really go for it, i studied design at university so i tend to have to make things look 'right'. Plus its in a small room so its either a big feature that looks ok, or a big feature that looks fantastic. 
Thank you again


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> Before this gets too heated, I would remind people just too cool down. It's a legitimate question, so let's treat it as such.
> 
> So, with that said, I'll add my own opinion to the matter. Personally, I would not mix species in that tank. While lugubris may be tolerant of other species, that is when they are not forced to interact with other species. It looks to me like that tank would force interactions.
> 
> ...


JP, check out the female in the pics I posted of my group. She has the dorsum stripes but also a pretty neat central stripe.










http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/52432-phyllobates-lugubris.html#post456527


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Yea, since that comment, I have seem some Lugubris with the central blotching. Not really common, but it happens from time to time.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Any data/photos on populations from different islands? I know dendrobase has some photos but I'm curious as to whether there are distinct phenotypic distinctions or whether each population is just highly variable.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Based on what I've seen, I would say that there are phenotypic distinctions, but it can be tough to discern them, and I'm not 100% certain that the distinctions I've seen are actually population trends versus intrapopulation variation. Here's the photos I've gotten of them:

Uyama Lugubis:









Colon Lugubris with R. claudiae









Colon Lugubris









Popa South Lugubris juvenile (left) with R. claudiae









Escudo Lugubris


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

thanks JP.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

They are such under rated frogs. They were super easy to find in the Siquirres region due to their loud calls. I have some great movies where I tracked them down and got about 12 inches away with the camera and didn't deter the male from calling one bit!


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

UmbraSprite said:


> I have some great movies where I tracked them down and got about 12 inches away with the camera and didn't deter the male from calling one bit!


Prove it!


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

thedude said:


> and you dont have to make another tank that is that amazing and expensive. you can make a vary decent tank for $100 pretty easily..


Hey Adam

You have to keep in mind that He's not from the US. Things are far more expensive outside the US.

In Canada we pay up to 4 times as much for a Brom, Double for most frogs and double for most tanks. 

Just thought I'd mention that...

And ya, I'm just sooooo happy about that.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

JP are there size dimorphism based on local as well?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

There may have been some size dimorphism, but I didn't look at it. I don't remember being like "wow, that one is tiny compared to other populations" like with pumilio. So if there was size dimorphism, it was probably very minor.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

thanks for the imput!


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## elblando (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi. i had no idea people had continued to post on here, the pictures are great. Heres abit of an update. i still have my lugubris. They has successfully bred a few times now. The viv has grown in (will provide pictures soon) and i have messed on with it loads, replanted and revamped. I have set up more tanks since that one including a 45x40x75cm high viv for my R.Fantastica and i also have a pair of cristobal pums and a pair of azureus. the vivs i have since set up were cheaper main through better sourcing of materials and plants. I will post pics of them all soon. Thanks again for all your help.


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## elblando (Dec 8, 2008)

here are my vivs in a new post for anyone who fancies seeing them + frogs 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/54727-my-3-vivs.html#post474552


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

MonarchzMan said:


> Right, I meant to say that I wouldn't mess with anything less than a several hundred gallon tank for mixing.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. I do wonder where on Isla Colon that one was found because all of the ones I found on Colon looked like that second or third picture.


I can tell you, JP.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

What do you think, J.P., both lugubris? Found within 15 ft of one another on Isla Colon.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

They both look like lugubris, but it's hard to tell. How large were they? Did you check throats for reticulation (I'd assume not on the tad pack... But that it's a tad pack may support it being lugubris)? The top one almost strikes me as claudiae (can't quite explain why), but if it's too big, then it'd have to be lugubris. Very interesting anyway! Both are far brighter than the ones I've found on Colon, lugubris or claudiae!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Interesting...Brian K. didn't think it was lugubris either but it was larger than the one with the tad pack. I think a few more were found as well and I'm trying to get more photos to show different. I have some venter shot at home of the first that I can upload. 

These were from Playa Bluff. I'm seriously considering spending some time back in the Bocas and mainland looking at only lugubris. 

See Thomas' writeup below - makes me think P. lugubris. 
http://www.dendroworld.co.uk/BDGarchive/d_claudiae.html


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Unfortunately, pumilio gets all the loving with the Bocas region, but in my experience, lugubris is pretty variable and probably deserves its own phylogenetic study. I think part of it is that they seem to be highly localized, so finding them can be difficult. It really would surprise me if there were a couple of species in the archipelago. From their behavior and all, it seems like they don't disperse as much as pumilio do, so that could be a mechanism for reproductive isolation.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Ray have you figured out what region our lugubris came from yet? I'd be curious to know.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

stemcellular said:


> See Thomas' writeup below - makes me think P. lugubris.
> Dendrobates claudiae


I also don't know about all of the descriptions that divide the two. Here is a pair: one lugubris (larger) and one claudiae (smaller) with both dorsal and ventral shots.


















Here are the characteristics claimed to divide the two:



> A ventral pattern of blue maculation on a black base extending from chin to vent and also the underside of the legs. This same pattern covers only the area from neck to vent in P. lugubris, leaving a solid black throat.
> 
> Dorso-lateral stripes coming to a labial directed point, often forming a vertical stripe, on the tip of the snout. P. lugubris invariably shows a rounded union of the dorso-lateral stripes across the top of the snout.
> 
> ...


So based on my photo, they do have reticulation through their throat.

They do not show the labial directed point.

They both show markings on their limbs. The patterning is slightly different, but I don't know that I would label this as a character of the species.

A short stripe, parallel to dorsal markings. I see what stripe they're referring to, but the lugubris can also have this, so I don't know that I'd call this a character for the species. At least, not a reliable one.

A few other photos of lugubris and claudiae:

Claudiae









Lugurbis









Lugubris









Lugubris and Claudiae









Lugubris


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks, J.P. Sadly, I was talking to Chris V. about possibly helping to fund something like this before he passed. 

George, the ones from SS (this recent import and the one from last year) are from Costa Rica, probably around PV, but of course, no way to know.

As far as our old American line, I have no idea. I was thinking mainland Panama but might be wrong. We should take a lot of dorsal/venter shots, measurements, etc. and email Thomas O.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> Thanks, J.P. Sadly, I was talking to Chris V. about possibly helping to fund something like this before he passed.
> 
> George, the ones from SS (this recent import and the one from last year) are from Costa Rica, probably around PV, but of course, no way to know.
> 
> As far as our old American line, I have no idea. I was thinking mainland Panama but might be wrong. We should take a lot of dorsal/venter shots, measurements, etc. and email Thomas O.


Okay.i'll see what I can do.

George


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