# Teacher - acquired frogs for class pets



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

So my brother, a herpetologist gave me 3 D. leucomelas frogs for Christmas. I previously had them approved by my boss and this has been planned. However, I'm seeing these fancy vivariums and am worried that I put the cart before the horse, or the frogs before the vivarium.

My kids won't be a problem for them (my room, my rules, no argument), but keeping up a fancy vivarium might be difficult for all of us. Is there a simpler option to start with? I can build over time, but I already have the frogs. Currently they are in what looks like a clean plastic cookie container with a large lily pad type leaf and some absorbent cloth. This is what the breeder gave them to my brother in.

Thoughts? I have access to several sizes of aquariums, but limited counter space. I also live in the South, so temperature should not be a problem.


----------



## toadlicker00 (Feb 14, 2013)

A plastic shoebox with some moist sphagnum and some leaf litter will work as a temporary grow out enclosure. Just be sure to keep them moist.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

How long should I keep them in that? I can slowly introduce things for them. Also, should I be cleaning these containers? Their current container is getting very dirty and smelly, but my brother and the breeder both say that I don't have to clean it. I know handling them is not a good thing, but is keeping them in their own waste better?


----------



## toadlicker00 (Feb 14, 2013)

You want to clean it every 2-3 weeks. As long as their temp and humidity requirements are met they can stay in this small enclosure for quite a while. The bigger the container the happier they will be. How old are the frogs? Do they all seem to be about the same size? Is there any way you can post pics?


----------



## toadlicker00 (Feb 14, 2013)

When you take the frogs out for cleaning use a clean shot glass or small plastic cup. Do your best to avoid touching them with your hands. If they escape by all means catch them any way you can(with your hands if you have to) but the less skin to skin contact the better.


----------



## Barry Thomas (Oct 9, 2014)

Out of curiosity, where are you located?


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

I'm located in NC. When I have the big vivarium, do I really have to clean out that thing often? I found some articles on substrates that will break down and reuse their waste.

Working on getting a picture. It won't let me upload them, just if they exist on the Internet already.


----------



## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Where in NC? There are many of us scattered throughout the state that could potentially give you a hand.

You don't need to clean a vivarium other than wiping down the glass occasionally. We keep microfauna (springtails and isopods) in our vivariums that do the bulk of the cleaning for us.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Raleigh. I think I will be okay, but it's nice to know that help is available. I can wipe down the sides. I just was wondering if I would have to take everything out, replace the substrate, etc. 

Frogs are all the same size, not sure how old, but my brother says they are less than 6 months. He can't tell if they are male or female yet. They like to climb up the sides of their container. I have 4 canisters of fruit fly cultures as well.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13015-dendrobates-leucomelas-novice.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/10513-fruitflies-101-a.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/10505-lighting-101-a.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/53573-tutorial-how-upload-photos-forum.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/17993-my-top-10-beginner-mistakes.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/4956-beginner-frog-faq.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/90123-beginners-guide-microfauna.html

There is a ton of great info in those. I know it is a lot to take on at once but if you read through those that I linked I think it would be a great help and you would be able to ask more specific questions afterwords.


----------



## Jeremy M (Oct 19, 2012)

I think there was a bit of confusion here. In their permanent vivarium, you will not have to clean the wood or substrate or anything. With the properly introduced microfauna they will consume all frog and plant waste as well as molds and mildew, which aren't necessarily harmful as long as they don't take over. Cleaning the glass off is just so you can see them better. But an established vivarium should not stink, nor should a temporary holding container. If they're still in the 'cookie container' with the wet cloth, then you will need to clean that out as there's nothing to break down the waste. It's also risky to keep them in here because there's a high chance they'll escape when you're removing them to clean. Try to move them to the grow-out container another member mentioned (plastic shoebox, sphagnum moss, leaf litter), they'll be much happier there and should be good for quite some time.

As for the fancy vivarium aspect, you don't need to make it look nice. Functionality for the frog should be more important than aesthetics. You can definitely do a basic enclosure for pretty cheap with some very easy-growing plants to keep the frogs happy. Many of these plants (eg pothos, wandering jew, philodendron scandens) you can just throw a piece of stem in the enclosure and it will grow as long as its roots are moist or the tank is humid. You can also find a number of these at local nurseries, just be sure to wash them off well to get rid of fertilizers or maybe even pesticides.

You don't need to have a background to the setup, though they can be very easy to make. My favorite method is to buy some cork bark, glue it to the back with silicone with about an inch between them, then stuffing sphagnum moss in between the cracks. In my opinion, it's easier than, grows plants better than, and looks better than the more common expanding foam/silicone/coco fiber method. This will let you keep epiphytic plants (bromeliad, orchids and vines) and the vivarium will look much more natural for very little effort  though leucs are mostly terrestrial, they definitely love to climb and explore and will use the background if you build one.

Here are some things to consider that are mentioned elsewhere, but may not be obvious to the newcomer:

-You did mentioned that heat wouldn't be an issue because you live in the south, but just how hot does it get? Anything above 85 or so will be too hot for leucs, and they prefer it around the mid 70s or lower 70s. So keeping it cool may be more of an issue than keeping it warm.

-You will need a mostly glass lid to your terrarium/fish tank to keep the humidity levels high enough for dart frogs. Check your local home improvement store (lowes, home depot, osh etc.), they'll often cut and sell it cheaper than most specialty glass shops.

-leaf litter and hides: leaf litter is very important in keeping darts, so don't skimp on this. It has many purposes including providing security for the frogs (they will hide in and under it), offering micro-pockets of varying humidity that the frogs can utilize as they please, gives the microfauna a food source and a hiding place, gives the frogs something to do as they dig around in it, It is superior over the flat moss that many people who are new to the hobby often love to use, which really doesn't benefit the frogs much at all. To buy some, you can look in the for sale section or send me a PM (I sell leaf litter). As for hides, coco hides are most commonly used and you can probably find some at a pet store. If your viv is densely planted with a bunch of leaf litter and other crevices the frogs can hide in, additional hides are often not necessary. Remember, the more hiding places you give your frogs, the more secure they'll feel and the more you'll see them!

-microfauna: this is simply very small invertebrates that help keep your vivarium a healthy ecosystem. They will feed on all decomposing matter including frog waste, dead plants and uneaten food as well as mold or fungus that grows. They will also provide an additional source of food for your frogs. Springtails are all that's needed, but I recommend using dwarf isopods as well. There are a couple different types of each. Search some vendors here to see who's selling and send out some PMs to get more info on individual species 

-substrate: this will be covered elsewhere, but basically i'll just say not to use potting soil. You will need two layers: one consisting of a drainage layer made of rocks, leca or a false bottom to hold water, and your actual substrate on top of that. The purpose is to avoid standing water in the substrate as this can lead to problems. Be sure you include an access to the bottom layer so you can drain away the water periodically to keep it fresh.

-dusting: you'll probably need to purchase some additional vitamin powder to 'dust' some your fruit flies in before you feed them to your frogs. A diet of FFs alone will lack some of the vital nutrients needed for long-term frog health. I'm not an expert on this the nutrition aspect though, so it's better to ask someone else.

Hope this helps you out some. Ask if you need anything explained better, I kind of rambled on a bit there 
-Jeremy


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Wow, thanks everyone! This will be a great start for me.

Also, it can get very hot in NC, but the AC at my workplace keeps the temperature between 73 and 78, which seems to fit the temps I have noticed.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

raelilphil said:


> Wow, thanks everyone! This will be a great start for me.
> 
> Also, it can get very hot in NC, but the AC at my workplace keeps the temperature between 73 and 78, which seems to fit the temps I have noticed.


78 room temp is a bit high. Once lights are added it could easily get into the 80s. Just be mindful of that and you should be okay.


----------



## brosta (Oct 25, 2011)

I would double check to make sure that they keep the AC on over weekends & other times when the building would not be occupied. I know of a couple schools that to save money turn off the ac at nights and weekends, would hate to have it get too hot one weekend


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Good call. We have hermit crabs that do fine, but obviously these need more consideration. I might get some sort of temperature control device after the next paycheck and take the froggies home for the first couple weekends.

It sure is fun to watch them nab flies.


----------



## Basketbreaker (Sep 30, 2005)

Your brother sounds like a really cool guy. 

You can do a very basic setup with just coco dirt, and long stranded sphagnum(this holds water the best), as well as some hiding spots. Hiding spots could simply be some pieces of wood, or leaf litter. Magnolia leaves should be too hard to get in Raleigh, and they look cool and take a long time to biodegrade. 

Plants and stuff over time will make things a bit more fun, increase humidity, and help with cleaning a little. Downside is you will have to put in a decent overhead light so they can grow. Home depot or lowes often has very cheap plants which can be used, just make sure they are washed. 

Also, as you've noticed, the leucs like to climb. I am sure they would love to have something on the back ground. 

Really the biggest things you need to watch is humidity and temperature. Higher humidity will generally get you more activity and happier frogs(spray the enclosure often). For temperature, heat will kill frogs very quickly. This is why holding frogs for any length of time is bad, not to mention if you have anything on your skin and that handling stresses them out. Lower temperatures are generally not bad. If your cold, they are probably cold, but thats better than being hot.

Mike


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Thanks Mike. I have thoroughly cleaned and sealed an aquarium, acquired magnolia leaves and substrates. I also got some coconut shells, but am having issues finding ways to cut entries in them because I think it is ridiculous to buy a $50 tool just to cut coconuts for one project. Might try to find someone who already has the tool. Frogs are not in the new home yet. Ever since I started dusting the flies for them in vitamins, they have been a bit messier than before and peeping at me in a distressed way when I capture them (brother showed me how without touching them) to clean their container. I hope the new home won't need as frequent of cleaning.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

raelilphil said:


> Thanks Mike. I have thoroughly cleaned and sealed an aquarium, acquired magnolia leaves and substrates. I also got some coconut shells, but am having issues finding ways to cut entries in them because I think it is ridiculous to buy a $50 tool just to cut coconuts for one project. Might try to find someone who already has the tool. Frogs are not in the new home yet. Ever since I started dusting the flies for them in vitamins, they have been a bit messier than before and peeping at me in a distressed way when I capture them (brother showed me how without touching them) to clean their container. I hope the new home won't need as frequent of cleaning.


The new enclosure will need very few cleanings if set up well. Micro fauna will do a fair amount of the work for you.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Frogs have also started doing this weird kicking thing in the new space. Is it because of the coconut fiber strands sticking to them maybe? The kicking resembles the kind of kicking dogs do when you scratch certain spots.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

They could be pushing off shed


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

You all have been great. I'm afraid I'm overreacting a bit with some of the things I'm worrying about. Students met the frogs today (Denny, Luke, and Mila), great enthusiasm… and no work got done today because we kept watching the frogs hop on their cocohuts and climb up the side of the tank and then slowing slide down.

They are at school now with a heating mat fixed to the side. I hope it doesn't get too hot for them. I put my hand in the tank to feel the air before I left and it was pretty hot, but then, the heat gets turned down to the 50's at night, so I think they will be okay.


----------



## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

raelilphil said:


> You all have been great. I'm afraid I'm overreacting a bit with some of the things I'm worrying about. Students met the frogs today (Denny, Luke, and Mila), great enthusiasm… and no work got done today because we kept watching the frogs hop on their cocohuts and climb up the side of the tank and then slowing slide down.
> 
> They are at school now with a heating mat fixed to the side. I hope it doesn't get too hot for them. I put my hand in the tank to feel the air before I left and it was pretty hot, but then, the heat gets turned down to the 50's at night, so I think they will be okay.


What are your daytime temps within the cage? You shouldn't need a heat pad unless the temps fall below 70 during the day. At night, if the temps are indeed at the 50's then supplemental heat is needed.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Heating pad is only plugged in when I leave the building. Heat is shut off at 4:30, and I leave between 4:15-5:30ish.


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Sorry I am late to this conversation, not sure how I missed this. Here is some advice from one teacher to another:

1. Keep vinegar in a spray bottle at school with paper towels. Wipe your glass of with vinegar dampened paper towels. This prevents water spots and green slime build up.

2. Set-up a vivarium at home. This way you can take them back and forth during breaks, long weekends, and weather if your building proves to be a challenge. 

3. Keep it simple. You don't want to spend to much of your precious time at school working on a viv and you want them visible to the students. 

4. Keep deli cups, a insulated lunch bag that can fit the cups, and a gel pack (store in the lounge freezer) at school. If it gets to hot during the day you have can cup the frogs and get them in a cool insulated bag. This will also help transporting them back and forth between home and school. 

I have a 4 minute commute and 7 tanks at school so I typically go in to take care of my stuff, but if the ac went out I do have the materials at school to protect my frogs and geckos.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

One of my froggies is sitting in a corner. It eats, but then goes back to the corner. It's the corner near the heating pad, but it does it whether the heat is on or not (I keep it off when the air temp is in the 70's). The other frogs are behaving normally. Moisture is high. Do I do anything?


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I just wanted to post a clarification: your frogs should be HUMID, not _moist_. When most people read "moist" they assume "wet". Being constantly wet can lead to infections and stress in frogs. The container shouldn't be constantly wet. Like, you can mist every few days and still be fine. If you're really worried about this balance, add a water dish for the frogs to soak in if they feel too dry.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Walls are kept so they have condensation on them, there is a little water saucer under a cocohut that they like to sit at that comes up to about a third of the way up their bodies.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Do you have any pictures of the setup? They can provide so much more info than you could think of offering.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Here they are in the classroom spot. Two are sitting on their coconut. This was shortly before one leapt onto the wall of the tank and slid all the way down.










Luke sitting in the water dish under the coconut.










The tank before I put the leucs in.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Okay, I can't get the pictures to show. If you look in the gallery, I posted the tank. I've put them on photo bucket, uploaded to the gallery, and I just can't get it to work.


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

1. I would get a piece of glass cut to use as your lid. Once you do that and add a lighting fixture it will help increase temps sightly unless you use LED. 

2. Go with a false bottom. The drainage layer is a must with misting. You can go heavy and use aquarium gravel or go light and got to Lowe's or Home deopt and get egg crate. 

3. If you do not want to do ABG mix, use long fiber sphagnum as a substrate. You can change it easily and quickly. It will also allow you to change it at the start of school year, after winter break, and then for the summer. 

4. Use some cheaper and easy to trim low light plants for the natural touch. Just a small pothos goes a long way.

5. Cut V entry way doors into your coco huts so they can sit flush with the floor.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

I would have done the false bottom and cut the coconuts, but I already had the tanks and I don't have a dremel tool, and paying $50+ wasn't worth it for the one project. I'm scoping out for cut coconuts (the bird section has some promise) and have picked out a future tank with a false bottom for when they get bigger.

It's not me ignoring you guys  It's just what I have access to right now.

Lethargic frog from last night is active today.


----------



## pooky125 (Jan 16, 2012)

If you aren't looking for a fabulously perfect hole in your coconut, I used a hacksaw and got the basic shape I was going for. It's not round, but its an opening, and animals can get in and out of it.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

I will need to find a hacksaw. At this point I might just buy and boil new coconuts to do that with rather than pull the other ones out. The current ones are propped up on guinea pig chew logs. I figured that if they were food packaged and good for ingestion, they would be good for the frogs.

Also, I'm worried sick tonight because school got a temperature delay and the frogs are at school with their heating pad, but it's only supposed to go up 5-10 degrees above room temp and I don't know how bad room temp will get overnight.


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

I have actual cocohuts now  Next step is getting a tank with a false bottom. That one will be a longer time coming though. Frogs currently aren't appearing for me because I cleaned out their water dish (a tea candle holder, about half a frog deep) and gave them clean leaf litter. I will put the cocohuts in as soon as they stop fixing themselves to the existing coconuts and refusing to come out.

I'm also making my first fly cultures. It appears to be going well.

And we've started a frog blog on my class website. So excited!


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm glad it's coming together for you. How have the temps been for you?


----------



## raelilphil (Dec 22, 2014)

Well, mostly in the 60's, but my heating pad isn't working like it should anymore. The temp inside and outside the tank is the same, and I feel that the pad should be heating it better. I might need to find a better solution. I've kept them at home this last week due to in-service, and I can control the outside temp to mid 70's.

It's smelling increasingly stronger in the tank (when I take the top off to put the flies in or spritz it) of dirt. It's actually making me sneeze, which it didn't before. I think this is the demonstration of the need for a false bottom tank, but it's just not in the budget yet, I need to put the new cocohuts in there, so maybe I'll pull the leaf litter out with tongs and let things dry out with the froggies cupped in their old container they came in, then rehydrate and put them back in.

Also, keeping froggies at home is a serious waste of frog watching. They are way less mobile when it is evening than during the day. I will need to take them back to school.


----------

