# Rove beetles for flatworms



## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Has anyone heard of using rove beetles to kill off flatworms? I ran into some old posts of someone suggesting them.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

I battled flatworms when I first built my big viv. I tried CO2 bombs, an anti-helminthic added to daily full tank spraying and constant removal of every flatworm I could find multiple times a night for weeks. Nothing worked. Eventually, I started seeing my frogs eating the flatworms - esp when the worm was eating a still-struggling fruit fly. I stopped seeing the worms a year or two ago and haven't seen any since. In retrospect, I probably could have left everything alone...


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

kimcmich said:


> Greetings,
> 
> I battled flatworms when I first built my big viv. I tried CO2 bombs, an anti-helminthic added to daily full tank spraying and constant removal of every flatworm I could find multiple times a night for weeks. Nothing worked. Eventually, I started seeing my frogs eating the flatworms - esp when the worm was eating a still-struggling fruit fly. I stopped seeing the worms a year or two ago and haven't seen any since. In retrospect, I probably could have left everything alone...


While I've seen my frog eat an early riser or a worm who wasn't quite ready to go to bed, these guys are nocturnal and the one or two the frogs might eat a day isn't going to cut it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

kimcmich said:


> an anti-helminthic


Which one? Just curious, really.

You have imitators in that viv, right? I never saw my imitators eat any, but that may be due to differences in keepers' feeding habits.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@JasonE - They are indeed nocturnal but are active enough in the morning and evening that I could observe them being eaten. I don't think frog predation was the primary cause of their disappearance - I wonder if it is a specific nutrient that was depleted or a pathogen that killed the bottlenecked populaton. After a couple of months of regular night-time examination and finding no worms, I stopped looking. I haven't seen a worm or the husks of worm-eaten flies in over a year now...


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I am very happy for you. I've gone in every night and killed them. Multiple times a night on weekends. I never find more than 5-7 anymore. But I'm still finding those 5-7 consistently. The population has definitely shrunk since I started killing them at night.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Which one? Just curious, really.
> 
> You have imitators in that viv, right? I never saw my imitators eat any, but that may be due to differences in keepers' feeding habits.


Also curious.

Whose viv are we talking about here?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JasonE said:


> Whose viv are we talking about here?


Sorry -- my entire post there was intended to be directed at @kimcmich , whose post I quoted. I was asking if the flatworm-eating frogs were imitators, since my only flatworm containing viv housed imitators that I never saw eating flatworms. I should have been more clear in what I was asking exactly.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Sorry -- my entire post there was intended to be directed at @kimcmich , whose post I quoted. I was asking if the flatworm-eating frogs were imitators, since my only flatworm containing viv housed imitators that I never saw eating flatworms. I should have been more clear in what I was asking exactly.


You're good.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Socratic Monologue

I used Prazipro - a formulation of praziquantel. At the proper concentration it was very effective at killing the worms on-contact - but it did not persist in an effective vermicide beyond direct contact at the time of spraying. It could, though, be an effective addition to a plant-dipping solution.

I've seen both imitators and variabilis eat worms (that were, themselves, eating flies).

@JasonE
I forgot to mention I also tried rove beetles. I did not see a positive effect in my viv and, in direct contact tests (beetles and worms in a small observation chamber), the worms were able to subdue and kill the beetles about 50% of the time. That made me think the beetles would not survive long enough to be effective worm control.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

kimcmich said:


> @Socratic Monologue
> 
> I've seen both imitators and variabilis eat worms (that were, themselves, eating flies).
> 
> ...


Yeah I've caught my variabilis eating them but it seemed almost not purposeful. Like one frog was climbing up a monstera stalk and saw it wiggling. Another one was similar. He was just running up a log and saw one moving.

And ugh! I was really hoping the rove beetles would work. They're easy to clean out of a viv with a couple CO2 bombs, which I have yet to find evidence will work on flatworms outside of one person saying it did.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

JasonE said:


> Has anyone heard of using rove beetles to kill off flatworms? I ran into some old posts of someone suggesting them.


I wouldn't use rove beetles they have very strong mandibles and I would be worried about them biting the frogs. Also whats the deal with flatworms anyway? they don't hurt the frogs or plants and only pick off some fly's at night... whats the problem?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Predatory flatworms eliminate microfauna. Many dart species depend on microfauna as a food source, either for themselves or their offspring.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

IshouldBEinSchool said:


> I wouldn't use rove beetles they have very strong mandibles and I would be worried about them biting the frogs. Also whats the deal with flatworms anyway? they don't hurt the frogs or plants and only pick off some fly's at night... whats the problem?


Hah! I wish that was the case. My tank hasn't had springtails in for at least 3 months now. The only things insect that haven't wiped out is my isopods. And the flies are no small thing either. I have to overfeed my frogs to account for all the flies the worms eat at night. And when they were booming, they'd take down 50 flies at night easily. Although overfeeding on flies may be what's saving my isopods. 

Still it is no small thing to have them. The tank basically needs to be treated as toxic. And I'm not sure if I said it in this thread but I'm retiring to Costa Rica in a few years and selling this tank is going to be near impossible if I don't eradicate my flatworm infestation.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

JasonE said:


> Hah! I wish that was the case. My tank hasn't had springtails in for at least 3 months now. The only things insect that haven't wiped out is my isopods. And the flies are no small thing either. I have to overfeed my frogs to account for all the flies the worms eat at night. And when they were booming, they'd take down 50 flies at night easily. Although overfeeding on flies may be what's saving my isopods.
> 
> Still it is no small thing to have them. The tank basically needs to be treated as toxic. And I'm not sure if I said it in this thread but I'm retiring to Costa Rica in a few years and selling this tank is going to be near impossible if I don't eradicate my flatworm infestation.


For some reason the flatworms don't eat isopods. Maybe it has to do with their exoskeleton or maybe they are immune to the flatworm toxins, but either way isopods are the only microfauna you'll be ablt to keep going if you have these flatworms. I've heard reports that larger isopods can help keep the flatworms under control by eating their eggs, but I have not seen evidence for this.

There is next to nothing that is willing to eat these flatworms as they contain toxins that are damaging or even lethal to most critters.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Johanovich said:


> There is next to nothing that is willing to eat these flatworms as they contain toxins that are damaging or even lethal to most critters.


I have definitely seen my varibilis eat them. No ill affects it seems.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

JasonE said:


> I have definitely seen my varibilis eat them. No ill affects it seems.


I should have phrased my post a bit differently. I meant in terms of invertebrates which is why I said "most critters" 
I have definitely also seen my frogs eat them either accidentally (when actually trying to grab a fly that was caught by a flatworm) or deliberately.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Just to update I've decided that even if this would work, I don't want to trade one vivarium pest for another. I keep finding fewer and fewer worms as I go. I even saw a springtail crawling around on a piece of wood last night. I haven't added any springs in 2 weeks so that's a pretty good sign that the population of worms has been drastically reduced. I don't want to provide them a food source that allows them to stay under the leaf litter and feed and breed. So I'll hold off on adding springs for a bit. At least until I see froglets emerge. If they emerge. And we'll see what happens.

This severe reduction in population has given me hope that maybe I can eradicate by being diligent.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@JasonE,

I've been where you are - driven half-mad by those f*cking flatworms. When I finally gave up trying to get rid of them (my rounds of Prazipro started hurting the plants) they disappeared by themselves in less than 2 years. I am suspicious that happens for _most_ people since you don't hear many stories of people who have had infestations for years on end (though maybe the long-sufferers stay quiet?).

@Johanovich I have not seen these flatworms kill a large isopod, but the small tropical red and whites could be subdued and killed so isopods are not _entirely_ immune to the flatworms.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

*Jason, I did read something recently that could help explain kimcmich's experience. It appears that these flatworms are cannibalistic. So perhaps if you feed your frogs early in the day only what they consume, the worms may be limited to preying upon themselves. That and some praziquantel. I've also read that their favorite food are earthworms which are not killed by Praziquantel. I wonder if you could inject an earthworm with a concentrated solution of Prazi and place it in a container that the flatworms can enter but the earthworm can't. Or somehow pin the worm to something like a piece of wood, or fishhook with monofilament.*


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

kimcmich said:


> @JasonE,
> 
> I've been where you are - driven half-mad by those f*cking flatworms. When I finally gave up trying to get rid of them (my rounds of Prazipro started hurting the plants) they disappeared by themselves in less than 2 years. I am suspicious that happens for _most_ people since you don't hear many stories of people who have had infestations for years on end (though maybe the long-sufferers stay quiet?).
> 
> @Johanovich I have not seen these flatworms kill a large isopod, but the small tropical red and whites could be subdued and killed so isopods are not _entirely_ immune to the flatworms.


You may be right. I'm still going in multiple times a night to kill them. I found one of my frogs eating on this morning off the glass, so maybe they will be somewhat useful for reducing their numbers.

My dwarf white population in that tank is great. If they are eating isopods it can't be in large numbers. They're clearly producing more than the flatworms are eating.


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## Shazace (Jul 19, 2020)

kimcmich said:


> I used Prazipro - a formulation of praziquantel. At the proper concentration it was very effective at killing the worms on-contact - but it did not persist in an effective vermicide beyond direct contact at the time of spraying. It could, though, be an effective addition to a plant-dipping solution.


How much prazipro do you dose as a plant dip?


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Shazace I have not tested it as a plant dip but, in my case where I was testing it on worms directly, 1-3tbsp per gallon was an effective dosage depending on how long you expose/soak the worms.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

kimcmich said:


> effective addition to a plant-dipping solution


I don't suspect that adding praziquantel to a standard bleach dip is going to be the best protocol, as bleach may well take that molecule apart, and prazi might reduce the effectiveness of the bleach by using it up.

FWIW, I've personally confirmed that a standard 10% bleach/10 minute dip is quite sufficient to kill adult predatory flatworms.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I don't suspect that adding praziquantel to a standard bleach dip is going to be the best protocol, as bleach may well take that molecule apart, and prazi might reduce the effectiveness of the bleach by using it up.
> 
> FWIW, I've personally confirmed that a standard 10% bleach/10 minute dip is quite sufficient to kill adult predatory flatworms.


Absolutely, I agree. Bleach is an indiscriminate oxidizer of organic matter. More than likely it will oxidize the praziquantel and render it useless if combined with bleach. I seriously doubt that the concentration of praziquantel would use up any detectable amount of bleach. You're better off using one or the other, or sequentially but never simultaneously.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Another thing that works well besides bleach (so by that I mean instead of bleach, not combined) is F10sc. I tested it in various concentrations and pretty much all of the concentrations recommended for disinfecting tanks works pretty well at killing them, the timing is just a bit different. And provided you'll be rinsing the plants shortly afterwards you can even use the highest recommended dose, which kills them in seconds if they come into contact with it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Johanovich said:


> Another thing that works well besides bleach (so by that I mean instead of bleach, not combined) is F10sc. I tested it in various concentrations and pretty much all of the concentrations recommended for disinfecting tanks works pretty well at killing them, the timing is just a bit different. And provided you'll be rinsing the plants shortly afterwards you can even use the highest recommended dose, which kills them in seconds if they come into contact with it.


Any idea what concentration/duration kills all the organisms killed by a standard bleach dip? Flatworms, snails, slugs, ranavirus, chytrid, trematodes, the multitude of protozoans including the novel Perkinsea which has no established disinfection protocol that I could find short of an assumption that 10%/5min bleach is sufficient).


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Any idea what concentration/duration kills all the organisms killed by a standard bleach dip? Flatworms, snails, slugs, ranavirus, chytrid, trematodes, the multitude of protozoans including the novel Perkinsea which has no established disinfection protocol that I could find short of an assumption that 10%/5min bleach is sufficient).


 Glad you asked that. Exactly what I was wondering. Thanks for the inquiry.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Just checked out their website. Looks like it's a quatinary ammonium compound. I'm surprised it's not harmful or frogs, although I think that needs to be confirmed. Reptiles I can understand since their skin is waterproof. But amphibians might be able to absorb it through their skin. Quats have been used forever as a veterinarian and agricultural disinfectant and sanitizer. It kills everything, even mycobacterium and is very effective against tuberculosis. Also used as an algicide for pools. They vary only in their hydrocarbon chains.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Another Mader reference here (I'm liking this book):

Chlorine effectiveness against
bacteria -- yes
bacterial spores -- partially effective
mycobacteria -- yes
mycoplasma -- yes
fungi -- partial
enveloped viruses -- yes
non-enveloped viruses -- yes

Ammonium quats:
bacteria -- yes
spores -- partial
mycobacteria -- partial
mycoplasma -- partial
fungi -- partial
enveloped viruses -- partial
non-enveloped viruses -- partial
(text notes that it may not be effective against _Pseudomonas_)




John J M said:


> It kills everything, even mycobacterium and is very effective against tuberculosis.


A web search turns up many references that contradict this, except for a couple very recent studies of "novel formulations". 

Efficacies of selected disinfectants against Mycobacterium tuberculosis - PubMed








Inactivation of Mycobacterium tuberculosis and Mycobacterium bovis by 14 hospital disinfectants - PubMed


Epidemics of mycobacteria due to contamination of medical devices continue to occur. For this reason, we assessed the ability of disinfectants, generally used in hospitals for disinfecting noncritical and semicritical patient care items, to inactivate mycobacteria. A modified Association of...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





F10 has been found to kill only two Mycobacteria species (one of which is the standard test organism for TB, but which does react differently to disinfectants in some tests) that I could find:

healthandhygiene.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/THHa-Index-F10SC-Disinfectant-February-2021.pdf

Tangentially, quat ammonia is in fact sold as a pool algaecide, but works pretty poorly (in my experience with our pool, and in the general opinion of folks who hang out on pool forums). Adequate chlorine level at the proper pH and in the absence of elevated levels of cyanuric acid is much, much more effective.

There seems to be some use of F10 in direct contact with amphibians, but do a lot of research before trying this, as I didn't catch the details.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Well just as the study you quoted states, quats have for decades been labeled effective against mycobacterium. The only exception was when it was encrusted in organic (fecal) matter. I remember that be my pathology classes from the 70s, when little else was effective against them and tuberculosis was a huge concern in the dairy and poultry industries. Whether newer resistant strains of these bacteria have developed or better culturing techniques have developed or for some other reason, I can't say. I'd hate to think that quats were deliberately mislabeled as being effective when they weren't. But back in the 70s quats were one of the few chemical agents that were deemed effective against the problem of bovine tuberculosis and it's transmission to people. That's the historical perspective on quats.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

I would indeed be very careful with direct application of F10 on the skin, but for dipping plants and related it should be fine (particularly if rinsed afterwards). F10 has been shown to be effective in curing chytrid and red leg disease in either a very diluted form for direct contact or by nebulisation. See for example:



http://www.f10products.co.uk/admin_uploads/files/Antifungal%20efficacy%20of%20F10SC%20veterinary%20disinfectant%20against%20Batrachockytrium%20dendrobatidis.pdf











(PDF) Efficacy of the product F10 against amphibian chytrid fungus


PDF | On Feb 24, 2014, M.S. De Jong and others published Efficacy of the product F10 against amphibian chytrid fungus | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net













(PDF) Disinfectant (F10SC) nebulisation in the treatment of ‘red leg syndrome’ in amphibians


PDF | On May 1, 2010, G J Drake and others published Disinfectant (F10SC) nebulisation in the treatment of ‘red leg syndrome’ in amphibians | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net





I have used nebulisation of F10 myself for animals that had abrasions, as this method allows for the animals to remain less disturbed compared to having to take them out for disinfecting the wounds. I did not see any adverse effects from the nebulisation on the frogs.

That said, the efficacy on ranaviruses is not studied very well and insufficiently documented unfortunately.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Any idea what concentration/duration kills all the organisms killed by a standard bleach dip? Flatworms, snails, slugs, ranavirus, chytrid, trematodes, the multitude of protozoans including the novel Perkinsea which has no established disinfection protocol that I could find short of an assumption that 10%/5min bleach is sufficient).


I can say that the two upper concentrations recommended, 1:125 (8ml in 1 litre) and 1:250 (4ml to 1 litre), both kill most insects, slugs and flatworms in under a minute. Isopods seem to able to survive being exposed to direct contact. No idea why tbh. Have not tested it on snails.


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Another Mader reference here (I'm liking this book):
> 
> Chlorine effectiveness against
> bacteria -- yes
> ...





Socratic Monologue said:


> Another Mader reference here (I'm liking this book):
> 
> Chlorine effectiveness against
> bacteria -- yes
> ...


Just as this study suggests, it's very possible that quats may well have been effective as an agent against a wide variety of microorganisms but over time resistance has developed in many strains of the decades from continued use. Essentially repeated applications of the same compounds may select for resistance over time. So what once was true no longer is true. Even if one billion cells are killed but one survives, you've just selected for a new resistant strain! That's the importance of 100% kill rate for microbes. And so long as you're able to achieve that with the target organisms but not what you are intending to culture, that's the ideal. To date, I know of no organisms to be resistant to chlorination. But with time, who knows. Never say never. But that seems highly unlikely in my opinion.






 Evaluation of Antibacterial Activity of Three Quaternary Ammonium Disinfectants on Different Germs Isolated from the Hospital Environment


<i>Background</i>. The microbiological risk of the hospital environment, including inert surfaces, medical devices, and equipment, represents a real problem. <i>Objective</i>. This study is aimed at demonstrating and assessing the antibacterial activity of three synthetic disinfectants...




www.hindawi.com


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## k5MOW (Jun 19, 2015)

I have a question about the flatworm situation. If you were able to feed less flies. Meaning by the end of the day all the flies are gone out of the enclosure. Would the flat worms taper off because of no food. 

Thanks Roger


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

John J M said:


> To date, I know of no organisms to be resistant to chlorination. But with time, who knows. Never say never. But that seems highly unlikely in my opinion.


Searching Google Scholar for "bacteria resist chlorine disinfection" gives many results regarding species that are resistant and also species that can develop resistance in certain conditions and in response to ongoing disinfection measures. 









Evaluating method and potential risks of chlorine-resistant bacteria (CRB): A review


Chlorine-resistant bacteria (CRB) are commonly defined as bacteria with high resistance to chlorine disinfection or bacteria which can survive or even…




www.sciencedirect.com




"Chlorine-resistant bacteria (CRB) are commonly defined as bacteria with high resistance to chlorine disinfection or bacteria which can survive or even regrow in the residual chlorine. Chlorine disinfection cannot completely control the risks of CRB, such as risks of pathogenicity, antibiotic resistance and microbial growth."









Effects of Starvation on Physiological Activity and Chlorine Disinfection Resistance in Escherichia coliO157:H7 | Applied and Environmental Microbiology


Escherichia coli O157:H7 can persist for days to weeks in microcosms simulating natural conditions. In this study, we used a suite of fluorescent, in situ stains and probes to assess the influence of starvation on physiological activity based on ...



journals.asm.org




"This study demonstrates that _E. coli_ O157:H7 adapts to starvation conditions by developing a chlorine resistance phenotype."









Inactivation of chlorine-resistant bacterial spores in drinking water using UV irradiation, UV/Hydrogen peroxide and UV/Peroxymonosulfate: Efficiency and mechanism


Although the quality of drinking water is extremely important for human health, the widespread use of chlorine disinfection results in the formation o…




www.sciencedirect.com




"Although the quality of drinking water is extremely important for human health, the widespread use of chlorine disinfection results in the formation of chlorine-resistant bacteria which seriously threatens human health."

I guess the reason I'm pushing back so hard on these claims is that we (the hobby) have disinfection methods that, while certainly not perfect, do work well for our purposes as judged by a couple decades of adequate practical results. That's not to say that improvements couldn't be made. But motivating a change in these practices -- especially one that isn't an attempt to solve an actual problem -- based on outdated or incomplete information would be a step backward, and these steps backwards* are *really* hard to undo. I understand that the "chlorine resistant" claim wasn't made in support of a change in practices, but is rather just an instance of a claim that seems simply false based on a wealth of literature, unless there is some semantic confusion between your claims and my responses that I'm failing to see.

*I'm thinking here of the ill-thought-out push for UVB for all captive herps, the same blanket recommendations for bioactive enclosures, and further in the past (30 years now) but still with us today the shift to carotenes instead of Vitamin A in supplements.

@JasonE , I hope this all still seems sort of relevant to your flatworm concerns.


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## 3rd_Grey (7 mo ago)

John J M said:


> Just checked out their website. Looks like it's a quatinary ammonium compound. I'm surprised it's not harmful or frogs, although I think that needs to be confirmed. Reptiles I can understand since their skin is waterproof. But amphibians might be able to absorb it through their skin. Quats have been used forever as a veterinarian and agricultural disinfectant and sanitizer. It kills everything, even mycobacterium and is very effective against tuberculosis. Also used as an algicide for pools. They vary only in their hydrocarbon chains.


F10 have some case studies on their Wild Animal video on You Tube in which amphibians have been safely and effectively treated with F10.


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