# Advice on Sinningia muscicola?



## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

I have been working with _Sinningia muscicola_ for well over a year now, but they have not done very well for me. They tend to grow slowly, flower sparingly, produce only a few seed pods, and then die back without ever thriving. 

Does anyone have any thoughts on why this might be the case? I generally keep them in sealed (or slightly ventilated) terrariums with sphagnum moss, peat, and tree fern fiber as the substrate and pebbles or activated charcoal as drainage layer - under fluorescent lighting. I have also tried to keep them in larger vivariums and they seemed to do even more poorly in that setting (a very small proportion of seedlings survived, but turned brown rather quickly after producing their first blooms). Thanks in advance!

- Conor


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

S. muscicola ("Rio das pedras") is a plant that likes decent light, and consistent moisture but never wet (it will rot).

Many people who grow these in tanks notice they can flower themselves to death--but they do self-seed. I too have have success fro a while, then they seem to rot away. 

--Can you post pics of the set ups?
--Are you hung on this species, or willing to try other mini sinningias?



Myrmicinae said:


> I have been working with _Sinningia muscicola_ for well over a year now, but they have not done very well for me. They tend to grow slowly, flower sparingly, produce only a few seed pods, and then die back without ever thriving.
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts on why this might be the case? I generally keep them in sealed (or slightly ventilated) terrariums with sphagnum moss, peat, and tree fern fiber as the substrate and pebbles or activated charcoal as drainage layer - under fluorescent lighting. I have also tried to keep them in larger vivariums and they seemed to do even more poorly in that setting (a very small proportion of seedlings survived, but turned brown rather quickly after producing their first blooms). Thanks in advance!
> 
> - Conor


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## austin (Dec 6, 2013)

I agree mine like it pretty bright and very wet, some of my best grow on a drip wall that runs 12hrs on 12hrs off. They spread pretty quickly when grown in the right setting.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I've always done well with the mini sinningias except when I get lazy on the pruning and some larger plant engulfs them


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

Groundhog said:


> S. muscicola ("Rio das pedras") is a plant that likes decent light, and consistent moisture but never wet (it will rot).
> 
> Many people who grow these in tanks notice they can flower themselves to death--but they do self-seed. I too have have success fro a while, then they seem to rot away.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the late response. I just got back from a trip out of state.

I will post some photos of the setup tonight. Also, I am willing to try other _Sinningia_ species, if there are any other miniature ones that might be easier.

Thanks to everyone for the advice! For those who have kept these successfully, do you have a particular soil mixture that works well? I have just been using a couple variants of ABG mix.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have a patch in one of my clay substrate 20 gallon vertical enclosures. Its been there for more than 4 years at this point. Its ebbed and flowed a little but the reseeding has been more than vigorous enough to keep it pretty stable. It is almost always in bloom ... The only time I get problems with it is when the plants get shaded by the bromeliads. This causes the patch to begin to shrink and is a signal that its time to cut out some bromeliads. 
That enclosure gets misted twice a day for a total of 45 seconds with RO water. There is an air gap between the bottom of the clay layer and the surface of the water layer (drilled and drain installed). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

Here is a photo of what most of them look like at this point. Again, they start out healthy-looking and grow to perhaps half-size before yellowing (as seen here) and eventually dying, often without flower/seedpod production.


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

Ed said:


> I have a patch in one of my clay substrate 20 gallon vertical enclosures. Its been there for more than 4 years at this point. Its ebbed and flowed a little but the reseeding has been more than vigorous enough to keep it pretty stable. It is almost always in bloom ... The only time I get problems with it is when the plants get shaded by the bromeliads. This causes the patch to begin to shrink and is a signal that its time to cut out some bromeliads.
> That enclosure gets misted twice a day for a total of 45 seconds with RO water. There is an air gap between the bottom of the clay layer and the surface of the water layer (drilled and drain installed).
> 
> Some comments
> ...


Thanks for the help! I wonder if it could be that mine are simply not getting enough air movement? The vivarium that I originally had them in had decent ventilation, but there was no air pump.

Also, I am getting conflicting advice with regard to moisture needs. Some have recommended a very wet situation (e.g., I have read several successful accounts, such as austin's, of growing them in drip walls), whereas others say that they will rot when exposed to high moisture levels. Any thoughts on what might be behind these differences? Perhaps differing substrate properties under "wet" conditions?

Thanks again to everyone who commented! I really appreciate it.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I have had them growing nearly as epiphytes and since they grow from a corm I doubt they like to be in a saturated situation. Also, since they grow from corms it is not unusual for them to go dormant for a while and then come back. A well known grower told me once that he never knew exactly what would cause them to drop their leaves, but he would wait a year before throwing a pot away, just in case.


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

I have been thinking... Supposedly, _S. muscicola_ is lithophytic in its natural habitat, so maybe it would perform better if this was replicated in the vivarium. Has anyone tried growing these plants on moist, porous rock?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

would the pH of the "soil" be any factor...as can be the case in other plants..just a thought.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Here's a picture of the patch. The amount of flowers is pretty normal and if you look closely at the bottom right you can see two seedling moving into an area where the light is higher due to trimming of the bromeliads above it. 

The substrate is a patchwork of turface over clay and clay over turface.

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> would the pH of the "soil" be any factor...as can be the case in other plants..just a thought.


Judy, 

the original plants from where I started my patch was sphagnum moss and that pot produced flowers for more than a couple of years before an extended period of neglect wiped it out (I had saved it several times before by seeds germinating but after that time despite watering and waiting there was no further growth and a check of the sphagnum didn't turn up any tubers). 

The current patch is growing in a pH of above 7 (the effluent from my clay tanks is initially over 8 and goes down over time but still has yet to be below 7). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

Ed said:


> Here's a picture of the patch. The amount of flowers is pretty normal and if you look closely at the bottom right you can see two seedling moving into an area where the light is higher due to trimming of the bromeliads above it.
> 
> The substrate is a patchwork of turface over clay and clay over turface.
> 
> ...


Wow! Those look like very healthy plants. I haven't tried turface as a substrate for vivariums before, but I might go buy some now, given your results. It seems that pH can't be the issue, since you describe success in both alkaline and presumably acidic (sphagnum moss) situations.

Interestingly, I have tried growing _S. muscicola_ in pure sphagnum moss (as you describe), without much success. What brand did you use and was it milled? Also, how much air circulation do your _S. muscicola_ get?

Thanks again for your help! Much appreciated.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I just ordered a bunch of mini/micro Sinningia seeds off ebay.... We'll see how I do


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

Dendro Dave said:


> I just ordered a bunch of mini/micro Sinningia seeds off ebay.... We'll see how I do


Nice! What types?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Myrmicinae said:


> Wow! Those look like very healthy plants. I haven't tried turface as a substrate for vivariums before, but I might go buy some now, given your results. It seems that pH can't be the issue, since you describe success in both alkaline and presumably acidic (sphagnum moss) situations.
> 
> Interestingly, I have tried growing _S. muscicola_ in pure sphagnum moss (as you describe), without much success. What brand did you use and was it milled? Also, how much air circulation do your _S. muscicola_


Can't help you with the sphagnum as that was what it was potted in when I got it from Black Jungle. It wasn't finely milled and it wasn't quite totally unmilled longfiber but somewhat in between. 

As for air circulation, the original pot was kept with several other plants in a ten gallon open top tank and was watered from the bottom by adding water directly to the aquarium. The above patch is in a 20 gallon vertical that has a vent that is four inches high that stretches from one side of the tank to the other. Before the bromeliads grew in, I kept it from taking over the entire bottom the tank by the use of placing leaf litter in the tank. The plants in my experience really don't like being exposed to too much shade. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed-- "7"? Boy, that is really sweet...yet spagnum should be more acid...I AM confused (not for the first time either ..) I'd have to have two grow outs...for an experiment...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Ed-- "7"? Boy, that is really sweet...yet spagnum should be more acid...I AM confused (not for the first time either ..) I'd have to have two grow outs...for an experiment...


The pH was a reference to the pH of the water that is drained from the tank where the patch I posted the picture of is currently growing. 
The original plants were growing in a pot of sphagnum moss which would be much more acidic of course. In short based on anecdotal observations I've seen no problems for this plant with respect to substrate pH. Instead I would suspect that light, humidity, and air movement are the environmental factors where people can have problems with this plant. 

I also know from experience that it really does not like drying out. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## dirtmonkey (Feb 10, 2007)

They are adaptable to slow changes, but better to start over as cuttings, seedlings, or bare tubers for the people moving them around. When I used to grow tons of plants for eBay sales, it became a damned weed in my light gardens because of its promiscuous seeding around, and they seemed as long lived as any 'microminiature' _Sinningia_. It's difficult to avoid it self-pollinating, but I did manage to cross it with a (much) larger species while they were still both undescribed (_S. sp._ 'Rio Das Pedras' (now _muscicola_) × _S. sp._ 'Ibitioca,' a.k.a. _S._ 'Rip'), producing a somewhat plain miniature with nice blue flowers and interesting red-backed leaves. It also inherited stoloniferous chaining tuber growth. I still haven't distributed that cross, but I think there are photos here somewhere.

Anyway, what they most preferred in my setup was medium to bright light, a ventilated humidity cover, and a soil with a little mineral content, either evenly just moist or that dried out at the surface between waterings. Since that described nearly everything in my growing rooms at the time, they became weeds.

If they dried out too much, _S. muscicola_ tend to harden off then go semi-dormant, with a scraggly few small leaves at the ends of stems covered in persistent dried peduncles & pedicels. I cut off older stems as they got ugly, especially if there were the small new growths in waiting that form at the top of the tuber. Old growths make good cuttings, just cut them off again once a tuber has formed with new shoots. Lather, rinse, repeat. If they were suddenly changed to a wetter situation than they were adapted to, I'd clean off all the old foliage and most of the roots and only move the tuber, or just move a cutting or seedling. The new roots and leaves will grow in adapted to the wetness without so much rotting and loss. Like many other gesneriads, they move better without roots than they transplant (except seedlings). Almost all are traded in gesneriad circles as cuttings, seeds, or bare tubers and rhizomes.

I avoided getting _S. muscicola _again for years after getting rid of the last of it because it had so annoyed me... but finally gave in and started some more seeds a few weeks ago so I'll have it again.

_Sinningia pusilla_ and _S. pusilla_ 'White Sprite' are probably the most dependable in terrariums. You can plant them in a bit of moss and seal them in a canning jar, put them in a place with almost any light at all, and they'll just do their thing for years without attention. I saved my _S. pusilla_ 'Snowflake' that way for a long time, and it even created the seed pod in there that produced the tray of identical seedlings you can see in my old posts.

Oh - I almost forgot the whole reason for all this rambling was to point out that if the problem is the soil, as opposed to changes in light or temperature, you might get less yellowing and fuller leaves/more flowers by just sprinkling a little pasteurized compost & clay and/or powdered eggshell or oyster shell or dolomite limestone close in around them and watering it in.

When I plant in sphagnum, I do the dirty moss thing for almost all plants, only avoiding it for things that come with "AVOID ALL" mineral/fertilizer/whatever warnings. All gesneriads get some compost and minerals, even the epiphytes.


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

dirtmonkey - Thank you for the thorough response! I really appreciate it. 

I find the observation about a need for minerals particularly interesting. This is something that all of the substrates I have used generally lack. I will give these suggestions a try and post here if it makes a difference over the next few months...

By the way, are you thinking about selling any plants from that_ S. muscicola_ and _S._ sp. 'Ibitioca' cross in the near future?


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## Myrmicinae (Jun 30, 2014)

dirtmonkey said:


> When I plant in sphagnum, I do the dirty moss thing for almost all plants, only avoiding it for things that come with "AVOID ALL" mineral/fertilizer/whatever warnings. All gesneriads get some compost and minerals, even the epiphytes.


Also, what proportion of clay and compost would you suggest adding to the mix?


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## dirtmonkey (Feb 10, 2007)

You know, I was just looking for the remaining plants of that Sinningia cross, and couldn't find it. I might have killed it somewhere, or it could have gone dormant in an unmarked pot. I'd just share it around if I can find and propagate it again, instead of selling it; it's botanically interesting but not horticulturally very special.

The amounts I add to moss would maybe average somewhere around a couple sort of handsful of (old, well decomposted) compost and/or (usually pasteurized) soil, and a couple spoonsful of ground eggshell or the like for my medium-smallish bucket of moss... which isn't too helpful, is it? So, roughly, a typical half batch would translate to:

—4L (1 gal.) moist but not dripping wet sphagnum moss, slightly packed in but not too hard. Maybe about 6L if very loose and fluffed.
—200 ml (between 3/4 and 1 cup) soil, compost, clay in various proportions. A good, clean, fertile garden soil screened and pasteurized works for me, but that would be different in different places. The point is getting some additional fertility and various mineral ion exchanges going on in there. Even Amazon jungle canopy epiphytes far from development are partially nourished by topsoil blown in from Asia as well as bird, frog, insect and other things' bodies and wastes.
—A little, maybe 10 ml (2 tsp) ground calcium/mineral stuff. If limestone, I use the garden dolomite since it usually has a good amount of magnesium and iron in it. Besides the minerals being used directly, it mellows the acidity that develops on moss and organics, so that some nutrients (e.g. potassium) don't get completely bound up and unavailable to the plants. eggshell and oyster shell also have a little bit of proteins and such that break down into a tiny extra amount of nitrogenous fertilizer.

I never measure though. If the amounts are more or less or some things aren't added, things generally do just fine, as long as the moss is still open and loose.


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## Santy1129 (Dec 21, 2014)

It is very nice that I found this thread. I was looking information about the same plant your are talking about. Mine is dying, but not sure if it is dry or rot.
I have a 12x12x18 exo terra. Humidity around 89 and temperature 75. Also my begonia cuadrilata is dying. I do not know what is wrong with my garden.
Can someone give me any advice?
The picture of the whole set up was when I first did it, so all my plants are nice. but the muscicola and the cuadrilata are dying now.
Thanks


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