# Ethics of unwanted tadpoles



## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

I am not trying to breed my auratus, but they don't seem to notice. I don't put in petri dishes anymore, and I'm keeping the viv drier than usual, but the male still calls occasionally and the females still lay eggs. The few clutches I've seen have not been good though, probably because I'm not providing a good laying site and because the foliage in that viv is starting to break down.

That said, I still keep a few jello shot cups of water in there, because the frogs really enjoy a soak from time to time. I also figured that if a tadpole did manage to survive somewhere, it would give the male someplace to put it.

Well, this did happen. A clutch that I've never seen produced at least one teeny weeny tadpole, which I discovered in one of the cups. I plan to euthanize it because I definitely don't feel it's ethical to produce more animals than you can handle rearing. But now I'm wondering. Would it be better to remove the cups so that there's no place for the male to deposit the tadpole, which I assume would lead to its death, or better to let him do his thing and then euthanize the tadpole quickly and safely? The obvious answer seems to be removing the water cups, but then I wonder if I'm stressing out the male if he has no place to deposit a tad.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

not entirely sure on this matter but, removing the containers of water may help. I feel like if the male does not have any place to deposit he will notice and possibly not consider breeding anymore. However I do know our azureus are in a temp enclosure at the time being with zero places to deposit and I just noticed a fresh clutch of eggs the other day. Where they plan to move these too I have no clue as they do not have any standing water in there. I think if they want to breed they are going to, its all about getting the conditions to a point where they are living healthy but not encouraging breeding. May need to dry them out a bit more. just my two cents.


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

Okay, for the sake of argument let's say I've done literally everything in my power to discourage breeding short of removing the male. 

My ethical question remains. (In this particular case it's now moot, but I'd still like more thoughts on this.)


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Cut feedings down and reduce mistings then leave them to it.

I can literally choose when my Retics and Terribilis in particular breed as I have their schedules down to a tee.

Regards,
Richie


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

You can always post a classified for local froggers who may be interested in taking the tads off your hands.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

so what do people do with the unwanted eggs???


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Judy S said:


> so what do people do with the unwanted eggs???


Throw a party and tell people they are caviar?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Judy S said:


> so what do people do with the unwanted eggs???


send them my way 

hope all is well joey!

James


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

Judy S said:


> so what do people do with the unwanted eggs???


flush them.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ColleenT said:


> flush them.


I hope you dont mean that you would flush anything down the toilet. great way to introduce novel pathogens to your local amphibian population.

James


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

Judy S said:


> so what do people do with the unwanted eggs???



I tape on the lid of the Petri dish and put it in the freezer. When I next remember, I wrap up the dish and put it in the trash.


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

Judy S said:


> so what do people do with the unwanted eggs???


Make tiny omelets with them.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

wonder how many it would take to feed my husband...


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Hayden said:


> Make tiny omelets with them.


Good ole frog omelets, I have them for breakfast lunch and dinner If its good enough for the tadpoles, its good enough for me

John


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

james67 said:


> I hope you dont mean that you would flush anything down the toilet. great way to introduce novel pathogens to your local amphibian population.
> 
> James


seriously? there is a lot more nasty stuff in my Septic tank than frog eggs. And no i don't flush them bc i have all females, and no eggs to flush.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> Throw a party and tell people they are caviar?


I'll have to pass on the "caviar" at your next SCADS meet


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## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

Hayden said:


> Make tiny omelets with them.


It's delicious. Everyone loves a freshly cooked azureus omelet.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ColleenT said:


> seriously? there is a lot more nasty stuff in my Septic tank than frog eggs. And no i don't flush them bc i have all females, and no eggs to flush.


While most of us arent perfect in our disinfection procedures when dealing with waste, saying simply that there are other more nasty things in your septic system doesnt negate that flushing anything from a tank is pretty irresponsible. I know you said that you dont (based on your comment simply because you havent been faced with the opportunity) but you need to understand that these forums are primarily a place where people come to get reliable information. What you proposed, jokingly or not, is bad advice.

Any waste should be properly dealt with. Completely drying material is one method. For liquids I use an ample amount of bleach which I then allow to evaporate.

As for the eggs... thats a hard one, if you really need to get rid of them I world probably crush them and let them dry.

James


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## Frog Town (Oct 8, 2013)

Judy S said:


> so what do people do with the unwanted eggs???


I'm glad you asked this. When I first started the experienced froggers always stated that they "pulled the eggs.". I wasn't sure what they meant by that but I knew they were destroying the eggs in someway. I do what ZenMonkey does, exactly...

I've actually contemplated selling my beloved pair of Azureus because I just don't want to bring anymore of these frogs into the world. The same goes for my Leucs. I do everything to discourage them but they insist on breeding. I check the coco huts every couple of days with these frogs so when I put them in the freezer they are still just fertilized eggs.

Now, I've heard that pulling the eggs causes the adults to continue breeding, whereas with eggs to take care of they are less likely to keep breeding.

This dilemma is also the reason I've been slowly getting into thumbnails. They are more difficult to breed, their clutches are small, and not all the eggs survive. My Leuc females will lay eight or nine eggs at a time and they are all good and all turn to tadpoles.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Colleen, I think the point is that drying or bleaching kills stuff like chytrid and ranavirus that the bacteria in a septic system may not.



james67 said:


> While most of us arent perfect in our disinfection procedures when dealing with waste, saying simply that there are other more nasty things in your septic system doesnt negate that flushing anything from a tank is pretty irresponsible. I know you said that you dont (based on your comment simply because you havent been faced with the opportunity) but you need to understand that these forums are primarily a place where people come to get reliable information. What you proposed, jokingly or not, is bad advice.
> 
> Any waste should be properly dealt with. Completely drying material is one method. For liquids I use an ample amount of bleach which I then allow to evaporate.
> 
> ...


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Colleen this is a good thread on disposal of water, substrate, etc.: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/80356-old-terrarium-soil-garden.html





Frog Town said:


> I'm glad you asked this. When I first started the experienced froggers always stated that they "pulled the eggs.". I wasn't sure what they meant by that but I knew they were destroying the eggs in someway.


Just a clarification "pulled the eggs" refers to taking the eggs out the tank, then raised.
If the phrase is "culled the eggs" it means the eggs have been destroyed. 

I agree with you I believe freezing eggs it the way to go, I try and do it as soon as possible.


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

james67 said:


> While most of us arent perfect in our disinfection procedures when dealing with waste, saying simply that there are other more nasty things in your septic system doesnt negate that flushing anything from a tank is pretty irresponsible. I know you said that you dont (based on your comment simply because you havent been faced with the opportunity) but you need to understand that these forums are primarily a place where people come to get reliable information. What you proposed, jokingly or not, is bad advice.
> 
> Any waste should be properly dealt with. Completely drying material is one method. For liquids I use an ample amount of bleach which I then allow to evaporate.
> 
> ...


Not sure what you mean. these are frog eggs. i do not see the danger of flushing them. if you are breeding frogs, i would HOPE you have already tested your frogs.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Binging an environmentalist, first. I commend James, and others for being responsible, for taking the necessary precautionary steps not to introduce any foreign pathogens to already delicate ecosystem. There's is a lot of unknowns out there. Just because your frogs was captive born, don't mean they're pathogen free. It's always best to play on the side of precaution.

Now that I got that off my chest, who's up for some termites?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

me me me me me......


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

ColleenT said:


> Not sure what you mean. these are frog eggs. i do not see the danger of flushing them. if you are breeding frogs, i would HOPE you have already tested your frogs.


The thing is even if you have had number of clean fecals, and clean PCRs for chytrid and rana on each enclosure it still is possible to pass some sort of pathogen into the environment that could have negative impact. There are so many variables; false negatives, a new plant, mycobacteria, well the list goes on. So it is really just easier and much safer to assume anything that comes in to contact with the frogs is a potential pathogen and treat them as such. It is pretty easy to put a clutch of eggs in a baggie, freeze, and then in your trash. 

It is a common thing for people not to be aware of the potential risks, I certainly had not considered it until reading info on this board and TWI. There is also lots of info on the subject through AZA, Amphibian Arc, etc. I hope Zen Monkey does not mind a bit of a hijack, it is an important subject.


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## Frog Town (Oct 8, 2013)

srrrio said:


> Colleen this is a good thread on disposal of water, substrate, etc.: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/80356-old-terrarium-soil-garden.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's what I thought at first but the way they used the phrase and the particular discussions made me think they were talking about destroying the eggs.

Anyway...thanks for the clarification.


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## ColleenT (Aug 21, 2014)

srrrio said:


> The thing is even if you have had number of clean fecals, and clean PCRs for chytrid and rana on each enclosure it still is possible to pass some sort of pathogen into the environment that could have negative impact. There are so many variables; false negatives, a new plant, mycobacteria, well the list goes on. So it is really just easier and much safer to assume anything that comes in to contact with the frogs is a potential pathogen and treat them as such. It is pretty easy to put a clutch of eggs in a baggie, freeze, and then in your trash.
> 
> It is a common thing for people not to be aware of the potential risks, I certainly had not considered it until reading info on this board and TWI. There is also lots of info on the subject through AZA, Amphibian Arc, etc. I hope Zen Monkey does not mind a bit of a hijack, it is an important subject.


ok, i see your point. if ever in that situation, i will freeze and then send to the landfill.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There isn't any issue with discarding eggs, it just depends on what you do with the eggs at different stages of development. If the eggs are found before the tadpole has developed significantly then the eggs can be humanely frozen or dried out and discarded. The problem comes about when the tadpoles have developed enough to be able to detect stimuli. At that point, freezing is not humane as it can cause significant unnecessary pain. Instead of freezing at that stage simply add ethanol (alcohol) to the dish. As the ETOH is absorbed by the eggs it will anesthetize the tadpoles. On some sites you may see comments about how it increased activity in the tadpoles before the tadpoles became anesthetized but that is an incorrect interpretation of what is a classical response to anesthesia. Many animals undergo an excited phase as the anesthesia begins to take effect. It is not due to pain. 

The plus side of using alcohol is that it will also deal with a number of pathogens/parasites. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

That seems like a very good method Ed! I had totally forgotten about alcohol. If I ever need to euthanize tadpoles or developing eggs, I will definitely keep that in mind.

John


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

Unfortunately, there is a really cheap bottle of vodka in the cabinet for exactly this reason. When I was breeding more (wow, that sounds weird out of context), I had a few eggs that grew into tadpoles with deformities. I didn't cull them earlier because they were from things I've seen threads about where sometimes they come out okay. But these guys were not going to make it.

The vodka works perfectly. And it comes in a flexible, drop-proof plastic bottle so there is no way on this earth that it will ever be used for anything else in this household.

BTW, I'm not opposed to the hijack since even if I'm still iffy on my original question, I'm interested in any discussion of best ethical practices.


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## Drewbacca (Apr 5, 2014)

Shoot, I'd take some unwanted eggs/tadpoles...


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## Friggy_frogger (Aug 24, 2014)

me to................


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## dam630 (Dec 11, 2009)

ZenMonkey said:


> Unfortunately, there is a really cheap bottle of vodka in the cabinet for exactly this reason. When I was breeding more (wow, that sounds weird out of context)


 
And THAT, folks... is exactly what happens when cheap vodka is involved.


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