# Seizure in Oophaga pumilio



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Automatic misters mist my pumilio tanks every day. I also do a manual misting every other day when I feed. Today I misted a tank that had a newly morphed pumilio froglet (1-2 weeks old). The froglet jumped and then stretched out, quivering, then went still. After a couple minutes, the front legs started working, and it dragged its back legs around. After another couple minutes, the back legs started working.

I supplement by dusting fruit flies with Repashy calcium plus every other day, Super Pig every other day, and Repashy Vitamin A twice a month. I've been supplementing this way for 5 years with no problems until recently.

In my 5 years with Pumilio, I've never seen any other frogs have seizures. However, I did find one young froglet dead about 2 months ago (that one was disappointing because it was an almost entirely black Oophaga pumilio bastimentos which is a color mutation I've never seen before), and another young froglet disappeared in the last few weeks. Before this, my froglet survival rate was extremely high.

Does anyone know what happened to cause the seizure in the froglet when I misted? Am I over-supplementing by dusting fruit flies with Repashy calcium plus every other day?

I use the same room temperature (about 72F) distilled water for misting that I've been using for 5 years.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you!


----------



## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

At 2 months old, my juveniles are not able to eat fruitflies. They can only eat small insects like small springtails, aphids and mites... I guess your frog cannot find enough food.


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

My froglets are fat and get plenty of food. By a month old, they can eat the tiny fruit flies that I breed. Until then, they eat springtails and other repashy-dusted tiny insects. They're definitely not starving. Starving didn't cause the questionable-mist-induced seizure.

I'm hoping someone has experience with froglet seizures and can tell me if I'm over-supplementing (I'm definitely not under-supplementing), or if it's possible that surprise misting can stress a froglet to a seizure by temporarily depleting calcium stores through the ion channels in the muscle cells through repeated rapid firing?

The froglet that had the seizure is fully recovered and hunting and eating now. But I want to be sure this doesn't happen again.


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Here's a picture of the froglet that had a "seizure" today when I manually misted. It recovered from the episode. The froglet morphed 1 week ago.


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

It sounds like you are pretty dialed in on your supplementation which is the first place I would go. I don't observe my RFB Bastis eat when they are little bitty, but I think mine are too small for quite a while until they can eat the normal-sized melanogasters that I feed the parents. I supplement with springtails at nearly every feeding. I only feed every other day, even for my little guys, but that's the only real difference in what I do vs. what you are doing.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe you got a bad or mislabeled (in terms of expiration date) batch of supplements. Your regime of supplementation is extremely similar to what I did for years, too, so I can't imagine that being the problem. If you got bad supplements, though, that might explain it. I would assume that you would see symptoms in the adults, as well, if it was bad supplements. I guess it couldn't hurt to junk the supplements you have and start over with new bottles.

Edit: One other thing occurred to me when I re-read your comment. I don't dust the springtails I put in the tank as feeders. Because of the surface area to volume ratio difference between springtails and fruit flies, it is possible that your froglets are getting a large dose of supplements. Maybe between this and the fact that you are feeding every day it might be enough to cause hypervitaminosis? I don't even know what the symptoms look like, though. Sorry I can't be of more help.

I hope you figure out what the problem is soon. That has to be stressful to watch.

Mark


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Thank you Mark!
I actually don't dust the springtails because it would kill the springtails, but I do dust all the other tiny bugs that I feed them. And I only supplement every other day. But there is a spot on the tank floor that has excess supplement sitting on it, where I dump the fruitflies. 

I wonder what the symptoms of oversupplementation look like?

I also wonder about the misting. I searched through the forums, and saw a while back that someone mentioned something about misting frogs that reacted by jumping repeatedly and rapidly until they stretched out and shivered. That sounds like what happened to my frog. But I mist all the time, and have never seen this happen before.


----------



## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Your froglet look well fed indeed. I dont think suplementing or misting has to do with the seizure. Im going to dig in some old topics on the dutch frog forum and hopefully help you find an answer. I remeber reading about this problem before.


----------



## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I found a few topics about this problem and research by remco stuster found that dart frogs got seizures due to the lack of calcium and or vitamine D3.

Also I found that some frog (mostly tinctorius) got seizures after long time exposure too high temperatures.

I hope this is helpfull.

Tijl


----------



## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

I don't have a direct answer for you, and what I'm about to say probably isn't uplifting, but it may help you not beat yourself up about the froglet if you can't figure out how to stop what's going on. 

I've been around animals my whole life (all kinds, big and small). Just like humans, sometimes they can inherit a genetic disorder (or the disorder comes from a mutation or other process in the gametes prior to or around fertilization). It's possible the seizure is (at it's core) completely disconnected from anything you are doing (I realize your misting triggers it, but it isn't the "root cause"). It may simply be a disorder this frog must live with. 

To reiterate, I'm not saying that this is the case, I'm simply saying that it is a possibility. Sometimes as keepers we forget that our actions don't directly control everything about an animal's health (though they do obviously have significant influence). 

So, do your best, but it may not be your fault.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

macg said:


> it may help you not beat yourself up about the froglet if you can't figure out how to stop what's going on.


I would tend to agree with this, except that the OP has two other frog losses recently. An issue that affects one frog can be brushed off more easily than one that seems to be systemic in some fashion.



yjkodiak said:


> I use the same room temperature (about 72F) distilled water for misting that I've been using for 5 years.


Shot in the dark here, but: what is the source of this water? If you process it yourself, there may be a filter maintenance issue at play. If you buy water by the gallon, you're braver than I am; I don't believe packaged water is legally required to be anything other than wet. (Edit: OK, it seems as if bottled purified water is in fact regulated by the FDA. I've been unable to find any list of allowable contaminant levels, though.) 

(Another Edit: It seems as if FDA requires limits of contaminants in all bottled water products that are similar to the drinking water standards from the EPA. FDA also requires that e.g. 'distilled water' is actually water produced by distillation. FDA does not seem to require that purified water is more pure in any respect than is any bottled water product. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=165.110 ).


----------



## @eco.tyler (Jun 14, 2019)

I know I'm a tad late on this, but it sounds like a calcium deficiency. I have found that pumilio, and their froglets in particular, are more prone to this "seizure" symptom you mentioned -- the legs starting to randomly spasm and shake. Coincidentally, the froglets I experienced this with were also bastimentos. 
I worked with someone who had a pair of histrionicus and I remember him saying the froglets were also prone to spasms. It makes me wonder if tadpole development via unfertilized egg diet plays a factor in how obligate egg-feeders metabolize their ca/p ratio through juvenile development. 
One of the variables that people tend to forget, especially with dart frogs, is supplemental UVb lighting. It is the one light that people tend to either ignore or forget about while setting a vivarium up for herps -- we tend to think plants first!
I would supply a UV light source for starters. At least over your froglet tanks if you have them; you would be surprised at the difference it makes in bone development and Ca++ absorption.
You can also try a dilute calcium gluconate solution. A 15 minute bath every other day for a week or so. 

I hope you find a solution!

Tyler


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Thank you Tyler! I use repti-glo 2.0 which is supposed to emit a low level of UVB. 

I agree with all the advice you gave, which is why the situation is puzzling me... I dust every other day. There is a little layer of the dusting in one spot of the terrarium where it accumulates when I knock the dusted frogs into the terrarium. I was wondering if contact with that small area of excess calcium/vitamins could have caused the seizures? What do you think?

Since my initial post, I increased vitamin A dusting to twice a month (from once a month), and haven't seen the problem again (so far). The froglets are emerging a little bigger.


----------



## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

@eco.tyler said:


> "One of the variables that people tend to forget, especially with dart frogs, is supplemental UVb lighting. It is the one light that people tend to either ignore or forget about while setting a vivarium up for herps -- we tend to think plants first!
> I would supply a UV light source for starters."




I highly recommend NOT adding a UV(b)scource to your tank(s)!
I explained this a few months aggo on this topic : 

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ameerega/106713-silverstonei-4.html


Again, studies have shown that these seizures happen when frogs have a calcium or vitamine D3 defeciency.


----------



## dmb5245 (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm confused about your supplement schedule. You use Cal+ every other day, SuperPig every other day, and VitA twice a month. Does this mean you are feeding and dusting every day, alternating Cal+ and SuperPig (except for the twice a month VitA)? Are non-dusted flies part of the rotation?

With seizures, the first culprit is obviously Calcium and D3, which the Cal+ should be managing. _So exactly what fraction of your feedings are getting the Cal+ supplement?_ If you are replacing Cal+ for SuperPig too often, I could see a Calcium/D3 deficiency happening.

Also, you auto-mist and add in manual misting at feeding time. The extra mist could be cleaning the supplement off the flies before the frogs get a chance to eat. If you are overfeeding, which many of us are apt to do, the flies have even more time to groom themselves.


----------



## indrap (Aug 28, 2018)

Tijl said:


> @eco.tyler said:
> 
> 
> > "One of the variables that people tend to forget, especially with dart frogs, is supplemental UVb lighting. It is the one light that people tend to either ignore or forget about while setting a vivarium up for herps -- we tend to think plants first!
> ...


Take a look at this thread from years ago, there is some info you might find valuable. Not sure how much the research has changed since then. OP, I highly recommend you also read this thread if you are using a UVB light. https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/s...xposure-dendrobates.html#/topics/73268?page=1



dmb5245 said:


> I'm confused about your supplement schedule. You use Cal+ every other day, SuperPig every other day, and VitA twice a month. Does this mean you are feeding and dusting every day, alternating Cal+ and SuperPig (except for the twice a month VitA)? Are non-dusted flies part of the rotation?
> 
> With seizures, the first culprit is obviously Calcium and D3, which the Cal+ should be managing. _So exactly what fraction of your feedings are getting the Cal+ supplement?_ If you are replacing Cal+ for SuperPig too often, I could see a Calcium/D3 deficiency happening.
> 
> Also, you auto-mist and add in manual misting at feeding time. The extra mist could be cleaning the supplement off the flies before the frogs get a chance to eat. If you are overfeeding, which many of us are apt to do, the flies have even more time to groom themselves.


Also note that cal plus already has some amount of superpig in it.


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Dusting schedule:
Every other day dust with Calcium Plus, with just a smidgeon of SuperPig added to the mix. Monthly dust with Vitamin A. After the froglet seizure, I started dusting twice per month with Vitamin A, and now the newer froglets have stronger legs.

Misting schedule:
Automatic misters every day.
Manual misting every other day, BEFORE feeding dusted fruit flies. This ensures the dusting is not removed from the fruit flies until the automatic mister turns on, hours later.

This regimen served Bastimentos well for about 5 years. One pair pumped out 4 froglets every other month. 

Then a couple months ago, one almost entirely black froglet was found dead. I assumed there was something wrong with that one. 
Soon afterwards, a typically colored red froglet had spasms after manual misting. This froglet was part of an experiment where I tried removing froglets from the parent tank as soon as they morphed. 

Since the frog seizure incident, I stopped removing newly emerged froglets from their tanks, and returned to my old method of waiting a couple weeks to remove froglets. Also since then, I started doing twice a month Vitamin A dusting, resulting in stronger legged froglets. I haven't had any issues since then (fingers crossed).

My working theory is one of two ideas (or both):
1. The problem is the small region of supplement buildup on the bottom of the froglet tank (where I knock the dusted fruit flies into the tank). If the froglets come into contact with this area, they are getting an overdose of supplements, or they are getting an extra dose of supplements that are in the wrong ratio because one or all of supplements such as calcium/D3/phosphorus are inactivated.
2. In my tanks, newly emerged froglets are sensitive to being moved to a new tank and manually misted. In my tanks, newly emerged froglets seem to be stronger with the extra dose of Vitamin A (twice per month instead of monthly). 

The explanation of manually misting newly emerged froglets leading to seizures was also noted by another frog breeder on a different site.

The froglet tank is lit with Exo Terra Natural Light 2.0 which is designed for rainforest dwellers that require low UVB instead of higher UV needed for sun dwelling reptiles. The light is over a screen, so the rays are not filtered by glass.

Half a dozen Bastimentos froglets have successfully grown up in the froglet tank since the seizure incident. Hopefully all is well once again.


----------



## dmb5245 (Feb 7, 2014)

yjkodiak said:


> Dusting schedule:
> Every other day dust with Calcium Plus, with just a smidgeon of SuperPig added to the mix.


That makes way more sense. I thought you were replacing Cal+ with SuperPig half the time!

Hopefully it was just a one-off. Best of luck!
Dave


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

The only difference I see in your process versus the way I raise my Bastis is that you seem to want to get them out of the enclosure with the parents long before I do. I don't really worry about getting my little fellas out of the tank until I am worried about getting them confused with the parents. I will pull them earlier if I have the opportunity, but I don't actually focus on getting them out until they have been in there for a few months. Is there a particular reason that you are trying to get them out so early? I am hardly a veteran pumilio breeder so I mainly ask to make sure I am not doing something wrong 

Mark


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Hi Mark,
I used to leave the froglets in with the parents for as long as you described... pull them out when they were getting close to being confused with the parents.
But lately I've been pulling them earlier because my tanks have so many Bastimentos in them, that I was worried about the froglets getting bullied or getting enough food. Right now, 1 tank has 10 adults, 1 tank has 7 adults, and the smaller tanks have 2-4 adults. 

When I pulled the froglets as soon as they emerged, I had the one seizure. So I'm not going to do that again!
-Tammy


----------



## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Can you show us some pictures of your tanks? I am realy curious


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

yjkodiak said:


> Hi Mark,
> I used to leave the froglets in with the parents for as long as you described... pull them out when they were getting close to being confused with the parents.
> But lately I've been pulling them earlier because my tanks have so many Bastimentos in them, that I was worried about the froglets getting bullied or getting enough food. Right now, 1 tank has 10 adults, 1 tank has 7 adults, and the smaller tanks have 2-4 adults.
> 
> ...


Goodness, that's a lot of Bastis! Is there a reason you aren't thinning the herd a little bit? There is a good market for Bastis.

Mark


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Hi Mark,
Originally, I just wanted to have a pair and be able to breed a few. I heard they were very hard to breed, so I figured two tanks would be enough. One tank for parents, and a second tank for progeny to live, in a nice large display tank. But I seriously underestimated their production rate, and things got out of control quickly. 

Now I'm having a lot of trouble deciding which ones I want to keep. It takes them a couple years before their dark red coloring starts to fade, and some fade to orange-yellow, while some stay red. I'm trying to wait to see which keep their red coloring. 

Also, I made a huge mistake the first time I thinned the herd. I sold 10 frogs to someone, but I kept the frogs with the deepest red color. After I promised those 10 frogs to the buyer, I realized my mistake. When I captured those frogs, I found over a dozen separate blobs of eggs on leaves in the tank (with 4-10 eggs in each blob). Turns out the most mature, best breeding frogs were those whose red wasn't as deep and dark, and those were the frogs that I had already promised to sell to someone. So then I had to wait a few more months before the other frogs matured and production returned.


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

yjkodiak said:


> Hi Mark,
> Originally, I just wanted to have a pair and be able to breed a few. I heard they were very hard to breed, so I figured two tanks would be enough. One tank for parents, and a second tank for progeny to live, in a nice large display tank. But I seriously underestimated their production rate, and things got out of control quickly.
> 
> Now I'm having a lot of trouble deciding which ones I want to keep. It takes them a couple years before their dark red coloring starts to fade, and some fade to orange-yellow, while some stay red. I'm trying to wait to see which keep their red coloring.
> ...


I have to respect you playing the long game here. You have put a ton of thought into this. Well done. Keep it up, but you might want to get another tank or two to spread your fellas out a bit. That's a lot of pums in what I assume is a relatively small area, even if they have been raised together. You don't have to go all out on enclosures. I have some gasketed plastic tubs that I raise some of my froglets in and they work great. Total investment may have been $30 at the most.

Mark


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Hi Mark,
$30 per enclosure sounds like the smarter way to go than what I've been doing. When I need more tanks, I buy new Exo Terra tanks, remove that awful styrofoam, use aquarium glue to fasten cork to the back, put a small pump in the bottom with a hose that extends up to the top, put in a long slanted fern chunk for the hose to trickle down (from the top across the tank to the bottom), then put in the substrate and bromeliads. Oh and then I have to hook it into my existing mist king system. It's a bit of work and a lot of expense. I'm up to 6 medium to large bastimentos tanks, plus 2 small bastimentos tanks where I'm housing the froglets and the adults that I'm considering selling. I'm running out of space. 

I have one large tank housing mantella baroni, but all their eggs have been duds. I can't understand why the "difficult" frogs are breeding so well, and the easier frogs aren't breeding for me at all! I'm considering selling the mantella, since I could really use that large tank for more bastimentos. But then I'd have to figure out how to cleanse that tank before moving a different species in. (I'm paranoid of contamination.)
-Tammy


----------



## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

Tijl said:


> I highly recommend NOT adding a UV(b)scource to your tank(s)!
> I explained this a few months aggo on this topic :
> 
> https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ameerega/106713-silverstonei-4.html
> ...


Seizures can also happen due to a calcium overdose. Hypercalcemia can have the same symptoms as hypocalcemia.

To the OP, if this is just one incident out of many frogs who generally thrive with your level of care, I wouldn't be too worried with this. Its possible this individual just was not born with good genetics conducive to captive keeping and may be overly sensitive to something like the lighting or a specific vitamin. Everybody's bodies react a little differently to even basic things like sunlight and diet - the frogs are no exception.

I had a similar problem with my first dart frog many years ago. What type of fruit fly media are you using and are you adding anything to it? Fruit flies sequestor vitman E and a vitamin E overdose could induce the reaction noticed after misting. Alpha-tocopherol supplementation can induce cardiotoxicity in rats. Something the equivalent of a seizure can happen once the blood starts rapidly pumping such as when the froglet freaks out when it gets sprayed.


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Thank you Tinc Tank. That's great info. I had no idea about the Vitamin E. I use Ed's ff media. Do you happen to know which media have a safe amount of Vit E?


----------



## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

It's not necessarily about the amount of Vitamin E in the media. It's about the ratio of Vitamin A to D3 to E. If it's imbalanced it can lead to problems. I personally don't like all the medias out there that do not list their ingredients for this reason. Repashy's SuperFly has the golden ratio of 100 to 10 to 1. You would also get the benefit of the carotenoids Repashy adds to the media which has been shown increase reproductive success in Oophaga pumilio.

See:
Dugas, Matthew B., Justin Yeager, and Corinne L. Richards‐Zawacki. "Carotenoid supplementation enhances reproductive success in captive strawberry poison frogs (Oophaga pumilio)." Zoo Biology 32.6 (2013): 655-658.


----------



## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

Thank you Tinc Tank. I didn't know about the role Vitamin E ratio played. That is very interesting. I appreciate the peer reviewed article link.
Tammy


----------

