# Discussion on Overfeeding- split from beginner's discussion



## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Whoa! I think we're missing the point. First off, these are froglets, right? Providing them with the nutrition they need for growth is important especially since the diet we feed is not as balanced or should I say diverse as they would find naturally. Secondly, I don't think he is planning on have his froglets swim in a sea of FFs. So feeding froglets every other day will help them in the long run? Uh I disagree. Adults yes, juvies, ah...no. Where to draw the line between juvies, sub-adults and adults is a better discusion as far as amount and frequency to feed. (see my other post) But in the end it all depends on the actual frog. Look at people, some get fat looking at food while others stay thin eating all of the time.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

It seems like the point is being missed somewhat. You don't have to wait several days between feedings (that's just what I do), but there should be times when there isn't any food available. The original post say they is always an abuncance of flies. You don't need or want that. 

If you read between the lines you'll find the point of not giving juveniles flies every day or several times a day is to cull them - some frogs need to die. If they can't stand up to the competition they die. In the long run (and I'd say in the short run also) this will mean stronger and heathier frogs for us all. If we nurse along every standard and sub-standard froglet were shooting ourselves in the foot. As was said in Jurassic Park - sure we can do it, but should we do it? How many frogs would you think make it to adults in the wild - 5 out of 100? In our terrariums its the exact opposite 95 out of 100 make it and reproduce. In the long run this is going to hurt us, especially since obtaining wc is difficult or impossible for many species and is likely to become more difficult in the future. 

We need to think long run and we need to be willing to let some frogs die for the benefit of ourselves and our charges. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

And a response from deep in right field.....
We were trying to advise this "new" I repeat "new" hobbiest the best way to feed his "pet" frogs. Not "cull them" and what's up with the "some frogs need to die" comment? :shock: He is "new" to keeping frogs so I hardly think he will mass produce a "standard and sub-standard froglet". Wow, are you really that threatened by a "new" person to the hobby? He wants to give his frogs the best shot at a healthy life not test them to see how strong they are and if they can't make it well then they were "sub-standard". Talk about coming out of right field.....man.
Uh oh I heard an 8 yr old in North Dakota just got dart frogs, I hope he "reads between the lines" and doesn't just want to enjoy and learn about his new amazing new pet.
Mike

Sorry but I couldn't resist :roll:


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

> If you read between the lines you'll find the point of not giving juveniles flies every day or several times a day is to cull them - some frogs need to die.
> 
> Interesting view, Darwinism at its finest! Most herps in the pet trade are CB, and most herpers (and froggers, I'm sure) pride themselves in their husbandry and consider a dead animal a failure. I am on Chucks side concerning sub-standard animals being allowed to breed and reintroduce their poor genes, but certain positive traits have most certainly already been introduced to the CB darts such as the ability to thrive and breed in a captive environment. My darts were also relatively expensive and it would be tough to allow a culling process. Much food for thought! Dave


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

chuckpowell said:


> We need to think long run and we need to be willing to let some frogs die for the benefit of ourselves and our charges.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


So why don't you be the first? Kill off 95% of your frogs, since obviously not all of them would have survived. Then you can talk without sounding like a hypocrite.


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Dave,
Oh I agree on the introduction to poor quality animals into the pet trade is a bad idea. But, for some of us we have these frogs to enjoy and if they breed and we choose, to rear the tads it will most likely be for our own collection. If we breed them for the purpose of selling or passing them on to others then we should have proper husbandry practices in line. This will assure a good healthy stock. However, as you mentioned these frogs are expensive for one, and two, I find it hard to imagine a person "new" to the hobby (who will be happy if his/her frogs live) breed them for other people. In the future sure but you said you were "new" and wanted advice rather than a soapbox answer.
Just my 2 cents. 
Mike


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

There are two paragraphs to my last post - the first was for the first post. The other was in reply to following posts. I figured that was pretty obvious. 

Why the personal attacks? If I don't tow the party line then I'm wrong and should be shunned? Come on people lets act like adults. You guys want to discuss this? I'm here. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

Chuck,
I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, I certainly see the thought process behind your opinions, and I do appreciate the advice! Mike, you are correct that I don't intend to breed with the idea of selling, so I am not approaching this project as a breeder would, and while I am new to darts I am not new to herps in general. I truly am thankful for this site, the forums have already helped me a lot with this new hobby and I don't want to be the catalyst for a negative thread. Thanks again to all for their input! Dave


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## bradadams (Jun 3, 2004)

I will say that I was a little surprised when Chuck said he only feeds his frogs twice a week but having seen his collection I can also say that his frogs were some of the healthiest frogs I have seen. I think we can only learn from what Chuck has offered in his posts.

As far as culling is concerned. I think creating competition for food in the terrarium would be a good way to cull if you were planning on keeping the frogs or giving/selling the frogs to an experienced frogger. But if you don't know where those frogs are going once they leave your hands then maybe it isn't such a great idea. For example, your perfectly culled frog may end up in the hands of someone who has never kept dart frogs before. 

My guess to the number of captive born frogs that live long enough to reproduce is that it would be similar to their wild populations. I try to attend all of the reptile shows in my area and it is amazing how many dart frogs they sell. I know there are a few people on this board that also attend these shows but not enough to buy all those frogs I see. I know these frogs share the same fate as so many captive born or worse yet wild caught reptiles and amphibians.


Just my opinion,
Brad


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Frog breeders have elevated a new factor for the natual selection process of frogs...color/pattern. Frogs with good coloring/pattern get picked up by experienced froggers who breed them at a better rate than the 8 year olds. So, the other factors that would be higher factors for natural selection (ability to find food, toughness, etc.) are lessened. BUT, who cares? These animals are not sub-standard because they are sissy frogs! They have a new habitat/environment where the best ones for this environment win out. Who cares if your frog couldn't hack it in the wild? He still looks good, provides hours of entertainment, teaches you about PDF, and gives you something to talk about online at midnight.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Come on people, lighten up. I think everyone should know that Chuck is one of the real founders of this hobby in the U.S. and he has a LOT of experience and success behind him... more than probably everyone else on this forum with only a few exceptions. I thought his post was right on the mark and if he hadn't said it, I would have.

Josh, I here what you are saying but what you are talking about is selective breeding. There have been other threads on this forum that address that and present the arguments of a lot of people who DO have a problem with this.


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## bluetip (May 18, 2004)

Hi Chuck,

I am genuinely curious, how often do you feed your frogs and how much at a time? For frogs and froglets? What would you recommend for froglets and frogs?

I understand the point that you were trying to drive at and honestly its the first time I'm actually I've seen such a post with that kind of thinking -- and I think it's very good and logical. I've kept cichlids for the longest time and for easily bred species, young prolific breeders really "max" out. Either they get stunted or produce sub quality offsprings (in that they themselves get stunted as well). 

But my sentiments are just that dart frogs are so delicate, or they seem to be portrayed from the discussions everywhere. Furthermore, because it is an endangered animal, I would feel bad about over doing either -- starving or overfeeding.

I've also read that darts have pretty fast metabolisms which is why they always have to be fed all the time, everyday. Is this a myth? 

With my cichlids, I find it a good practice to feed sparingly and erratically -- probably feeding them about 3-5x a week with varying quantities.

regards,

bluetip


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Arklier - you are out of line with your comments toward Chuck. That isn't what he is suggesting. Chuck was just sharing a widely held opinion that is discussed often with advanced hobbists.

Maybe the admins should look to split this discussion up and move part of it to the advanced forum.






Arklier said:


> chuckpowell said:
> 
> 
> > We need to think long run and we need to be willing to let some frogs die for the benefit of ourselves and our charges.
> ...


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## bradadams (Jun 3, 2004)

To avoid confusion I just want to say there are really two ways to look at this question. From an advanced point of view and from a beginer point of view.

My opinion is that as a beginer it is very difficult to overfeed dart frogs. This doesn't mean you can't do it but from my experience dart frogs will stop actively hunting once they have had their fill. I would also recommend to feed at least every other day.

From an advanced point of view. Read Chuck's post (5th post 1st page).


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

melissa68 said:


> Arklier - you are out of line with your comments toward Chuck. That isn't what he is suggesting. Chuck was just sharing a widely held opinion that is discussed often with advanced hobbists.
> 
> Maybe the admins should look to split this discussion up and move part of it to the advanced forum.


Was I? I don't think so. For the record, I agree that frogs don't need to be fed every day. I feed mine every other day, or every third day. So it's not the message I disagree with. It's the delivery and all the extra baggage. What about all that stuff about how 95/100 don't make it in the wild and some frogs need to die (or be culled) because people are polluting the gene pool by keeping food constantly available to froglets? I think if you polled 100 users on this board, near 100% of them would be guilty. 

I also agree that this thread should be split. Don't you think all that stuff is a little out of place in a thread created by a newbie asking how much is too much to feed their first pair? Especially when there wasn't any indication that the frogs were weaklings, or even froglets.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I guess I read Chuck's post differently than you did. My take on his post, is this is someone who has been keeping frogs for over 20 years, and darts just a few more years. I am very interested in what he has to say.

He is probably one of the most experienced hobbyists on this forum. He shared some thoughts based on his experiences...before he is jumped for stating a wildly heald opinion, taking an approach asking him to expain how he comes to the 95% ratio would benifit all of us!



Arklier said:


> It's the delivery and all the extra baggage. What about all that stuff about how 95/100 don't make it in the wild and some frogs need to die (or be culled) because people are polluting the gene pool by keeping food constantly available to froglets? I think if you polled 100 users on this board, near 100% of them would be guilty.


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

I PM'd Chuck to clarify some issues and said he might be better off editing the post and starting a separate thread on the topic, but he said it was too late and it would have read very strange to edit after all of the comments. Funny but I agree with most of the comments from both sides of the fence. However, this was a new hobbiest asking a simple question and was blown out of the water by the depth of the response. Just let the thread die and move on. Just my thoughts.
"And that's all I have to say about that..." -Forrest Gump-
mike


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dunner97074 said:


> However, this was a new hobbiest asking a simple question and was blown out of the water by the depth of the response. Just let the thread die and move on. Just my thoughts.
> "And that's all I have to say about that..." -Forrest Gump-
> mike


This is what makes me very nervous about having a forum splint into "beginner" and "advanced" sections because beginners should not necessarily be fed cookie cutter answers. The question was whether darts can be overfed and the most simple answer to that question would be "yes". But that isn't a very informative answer, is it? The point of a threaded discussion is to bring in various points of view and experience and let the questioner sift through that information and form their own opinion. Just because someone is a beginner does not make them stupid. I like to give people credit for being able to form an opinion from varied responses. As I read this entire thread, I've seen a wealth of information - ALL of which is beneficial to beginner and experienced alike. The thread as a whole tells me that yes, it is possible to overfeed frogs but there is a knack to knowing how much is too much. Further, the thread suggests that for a beginner, feeding too much is better than feeding too little. I would hope that the original poster got this message but unfortunately the thread got split. 

Sorry for the rant.


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Brent,
Why quote my post out of context. I was merely stating that the answers given up to the point of a "breeders" view were sufficient. Ie. the comments about culling and to paraphrase, the weak must die in order to propagate a stronger frog were a little much to answer the original thread. I pm'd with Chuck several times on the matter and he agreed it probably was not the appropriate area for the response. I agree with his philosophy but did not think it was in the context of the post he thought about splitting the thread himself. About the beginner in this hobby I was merely stating that breeding the frogs was not his concern not his knowledge and furthermore I do not think I talked down to the original poster as, by quoting me, you made it out to be. Because I too can be considered new to this hobby.
Mike
If I am going to be quoted at least do it fairly in regards to the facts not assumptions of my opinion.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some comments,

1) The Philadelphia Zoo for a number of years (approaching a decade) fed their dendrobatids and mantellas, two times a week (three if they were looking for reproduction). The frogs lived for more than ten years and they were breeding auratus back in the early 1980s. 

2) There are some calculations that can give you the minimal caloric needs of a frog. (ill or rapidly growing frogs can have a caloric need up to 8 times as much). Assuming we are speaking about a large froglet let us use the values for a 1 gram frog (from Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) (I am using a figure for 25 C as this will increase metabolic need even more) is 0.02 kcal/day. A gross energy value for fruitflies (including undigestiable parts) is 5.12 kcals/gram fruit flies (from Feeding captive insectivorous animals: nutritional aspects of insects as food; 1997, Publication of the AZA Nutrtional Adisory Group Handbook). 
If you work the math then a 1 gram frog at 25 C needs is 0.0039 grams of fruit flies a day to deal with the basic metabolic needs. If anyone has the mass of a fruit fly we can get the exact number of fruit flies a day. (and then multiply it by 8 to reach a good maximal caloric number).

3. Obesity is a condition that is easy to attain and hard to resolve in amphibians. Most amphibians are hard wired to feed whenever prey is available to take advantage of short term availability in the wild. This makes it easy to over feed the animals in our care. The low metabolic rate of amphibains (and reptiles) makes it very difficult to resolve obesity. 


Some comments, we tend to feed a high number of food items to the frogs to maximize growth, survivorship, and increase reproductive potential. One of the limiting factors in reproduction in wild animals is the fat reserves to sustain egg formation as this is a energy intensive process. We are maximizing the egg production as a method to recover expenses otherwise what is the driving reason to pull clutches, feed heavy and provide multiple oviposition sites? 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Mike,

I'm sorry for using your quote. I just grabbed the most recent quote to respond to and you were the unlucky winner. I really didn't mean to single you out or to take your post our of context. Several people indicated they felt that Chuck's post and the thread in general was beyond what was called for. I still disagree. Whenever I respond to a post, I not only respond to whoever posed the question but also to all of the unknown readers who may have the same or similar question. Yes, this particular person stated they weren't interested in breeding but someone else reading the post might and I think the information that Chuck threw out to the thread presented a different viewpoint. I also felt like his post addressed the question at hand with some additional philosophy to support why a different way of thinking might be important. I just think this is how the hobby grows. I don't have any problem if the culling topic got split to a new thread but this new thread also contains some posts relevant to the original... like Ed's excellent recent post. I have my own issues with the statements about culling but that is a different topic but I still don't have a problem with the issue at least being mentioned in the context it was.

I also didn't mean to insinuate that anyone in this thread actually talked down to the original poster. What I meant was that I don't agree with the notion that answers to beginner's questions should be kept simple. Many "beginner" questions actually have complex answers and I think we do a diservice by trying to simplify things too much. I know some people think this scares away beginners by making them think keeping darts is too complicated. But actually, I think it should do the opposite. There are many ways to successfully keep dart frogs which is a testiment to their hardiness.

Finally, I've had my rant and won't say anymore on the subject unless there is someone who feels like I owe them an apology, which I am happy to give. This is only my opinion and I understand that not everyone shares this opinion which is partly why dendroboard was started to begin with. I don't want to do anything to undermine the success of dendroboard so am happy to not unnnecessarily complicate discussions if that is what the board wishes. If anyone would like to follow up on this privately, I prefer email to PM and my address is: [email protected].

Again, sorry Mike for giving the appearance that I was singling you out. That wasn't my intention.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Just something to consider when talking about how often frogs should be fed. In most if not all cases your frogs are not going to eat every single fly you put in the enclosure. I for one strive to make my enclosures as ff escape proof as I can. I feed my collection usually 2 sometimes 3 times a week, but on the days that I don't feed there are usually some flies to be had from previous feedings. So although 2 times a week doesn't seem like much there are only maybe 2 days a week where there isn't something for them to eat.

On the comment that "5 out of 100 darts survive in the wild", and breeders culling juvenile frogs: I would think because of the relatively small clutch size of most darts that the mortality rate in the wild would be much lower than other frogs that lay 100's of eggs at a time. I don't know of any field studies that have been done but can anyone else comment on this?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> On the comment that "5 out of 100 darts survive in the wild", and breeders culling juvenile frogs: I would think because of the relatively small clutch size of most darts that the mortality rate in the wild would be much lower than other frogs that lay 100's of eggs at a time. I don't know of any field studies that have been done but can anyone else comment on this?


Even in dendrobatids I wouldn't be surprised if 95% mortality is found in the wild but we also have to consider that much, if not most, of this mortality is due to random chance or bad luck. Predation, accident, exposure, and even disease are all things that can happen to genetically fit frogs that happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should be culling 95% of our frogs but if we have a froglet that probably wouldn't make it in the wild, maybe is should be culled. 

I should add that culling doesn't necessarily mean killing. Culling can be donating the frog to a school classroom or the kid down the street that just wants a pretty frog but won't be breeding them. The point is only to not let weak or deformed frogs contribute to the next generation.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Brent,

I wonder how often environmental changes have an affect on the number of tads that survive in the wild? Drought would be a problem (very small one in the tropics), but even small pools can dry up in even the most humid parts of the summer here in the northeast. I had two survey sites for Hyla chrysoscelis this season and one dried up mid-season- I must have seen hundreds of dead leopard frog and tree frog tadpoles. Even some of the deepest parts of the bog were dry. Some of the tads escaped into the crayfish holes, which was interesting. Some of the tree holes that were usually full also dried up. Then again, darts can breed all year round in some areas. Still, it is a question worth pondering.

Justin


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

andersonii85 said:


> Brent,
> 
> I wonder how often environmental changes have an affect on the number of tads that survive in the wild?


I agree that this could be huge. One could argue that evolution selects for frogs that choose timing of breeding and sites to minimize loss from such events but these things are not that predictable so much of it can be chaulked up to "bad luck". Also, dendrobatids use tad rearing sites that have their own host of risks. Drying is one of them but competition with other tadpoles and dragonfly larvae etc. is fierce. Often times whoever gets to the pool first wins because the earlier comers are large enough to eat the newcomers when they arrive. But this pushes animals to breed earlier so they can deposit their tadpoles before their competitors. Breeding too early risks depositing tads at a time when the pools might not be reliable and are more likely to dry out. It's an interesting topic that puts whatever responsibility we have to cull into context.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*FFs per day for a 1 gram frog at 25 C*

Okay I had a little extra time today so I warmed up the Ohaus TS120 and let it acclimate and tared it. I then dumped enough fruit flies on it to get a usable weight (0.125 grams). I took these ffs and froze them, and then counted them. It took 166 ffs to make 0.125 grams. This comes out to be 7.53 E-4 grams per fly. Using the previous calculation from above we had come up with 0.0039 grams/ffs/day. 
A quick calculation results in 5.2 ffs per day to sustain basal metabolic rates at 25 C (77 F). So an actively growing 1 gram frog can require as many as 42 ffs a day but the number is likely anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 this amount as I was estimating high on maximal amount. When pouring ffs from a container it is pretty easy to pour two to three times as many ffs. As the frogs are hard wired to take advantage of this time of plenty (even though it occurs daily), it is easy to overfeed your frogs. 
Ed


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## Cory (Jan 18, 2005)

Finally a quantitative answer


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## georgiekittie (Jan 27, 2009)

bbrock said:


> Even in dendrobatids I wouldn't be surprised if 95% mortality is found in the wild but we also have to consider that much, if not most, of this mortality is due to random chance or bad luck. Predation, accident, exposure, and even disease are all things that can happen to genetically fit frogs that happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should be culling 95% of our frogs but if we have a froglet that probably wouldn't make it in the wild, maybe is should be culled.
> 
> I should add that culling doesn't necessarily mean killing. Culling can be donating the frog to a school classroom or the kid down the street that just wants a pretty frog but won't be breeding them. The point is only to not let weak or deformed frogs contribute to the next generation.


I know that this is an old thread, but...
At what point do you consider a frog a survivor in order to calculate your survival rate? One year? And did anyone have any information on that subject?

Secondly, does anyone have the link for the original post?

Thanks,


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

it seems alot of people here feel very strongly about the frogs basic needs vs the ideal needs for having an ideal frog. when first comming into the hobby i was told to feed my frogs once to twice a week by the person i first got my frogs from which was actually a big name in this hobby i wont go into detail about them. once having my frogs and me feeding once to twice a week i felt it truely wasnt enough and i truely seen no growth. ( i had juvi's of verious species from thumbnails to larger species )i increased feeding to about every other day and seen very good results the frogs were growing at a faster rate and were putting on a little weight and seemed more active. as i got into larger and larger species of frog i noticed that the useual amount of flys i feed and the every other day thing wasnt working for them. so now i feed my larger frogs daily and my thumbnails and pumilio every other day. now i feed a variety of foods flys everyday to every other day i seed springtails 2 or 3 times a week and bean beetles weekly. and i can say at any given time there is food in the viv for them and i just feed less if theres already some left over or more if theres none left over. i just kind of eye it out every feeding. now sometimes so much food is in the vivs i leave it for 2 or 3 days and go back to my daily feeding so it really does vary and depends on the frogs and how much they eat how much food escapes ect.. all i know is all of my frogs are plump and very active and eat any time new flys hit the floor. i guess everyone has to find what works for them and run with it.

-Derek


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

georgiekittie said:


> I know that this is an old thread, but...
> At what point do you consider a frog a survivor in order to calculate your survival rate? One year? And did anyone have any information on that subject?


That's a memory jogger but when I posted that, I was considering a survivor to be those animals that survived long enough to successfully reproduce themselves and thus contribute genetically to the next generation.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Frogs that are born and die in the wild do not die necessarily because they have poor genes or are bad frogs. Alot of them die due to predation(being in the wrong place at the wrong time), lack of food, disease, etc. 

What I am wondering is, frogs born in captivity do not face all the factors of a wild born frog so why wouldn't the success rate of them growing to adulthood be much much higher in captivity??


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

On additional thing that I think is worth pointing out. As far as culling/overfeeding advice and responses are concerned, it might be worth taking a second to think about the intentions and stage of the hobbyist in question. 

Meaning, if this is someone new to the hobby that is interested in nothing more than keeping some frogs alive and enjoying them in the tank, then a simple answer saying that is IS possible to overfeed, but it's also likely better to err on the side of a tad too much than not enough. Maybe some tips about how to notice wehther you're overfeeding by observing the eating behavior of the frogs in question (are they eating as soon as you dump flies into the tank? are there still plenty of flies walking around when you feed or is the tank mostly empty? etc...)

If it's someone actually interested in breeding and raising the juvies in question for sale... then different story. However, MOST of the time, once a hobbyist is at that point, they're a little more worldy with some of these issues. At that point it becomes a discussion about feeding schedule and long term health of the offspring, rather than advice to a newcomer about how to keep the frogs healthy.

and now back to your regularly scheduled programming... ;-)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DCreptiles said:


> it s ms alot of people here feel very strongly about the frogs basic needs vs the ideal needs for having an ideal frog. when first comming into the hobby i was told to feed my frogs once to twice a week by the person i first got my frogs from which was actually a big name in this hobby i wont go into detail about them. once having my frogs and me feeding once to twice a week i felt it truely wasnt enough and i truely seen no growth. ( i had juvi's of verious species from thumbnails to larger species )i increased feeding to about every other day and seen very good results the frogs were growing at a faster rate and were putting on a little weight and seemed more active.


One of the items that should be discussed a little more is that rapid growth in captivity may have other trade offs on the other side with effects on longevity and reproduction. In other animals increased growth before maturity can be a trde off with longevity. 

It is already well established that obesity causes health problems with frogs and often the pictures posted of "healthy" frogs are signficantly fatter than those of the same species/morphs in the wild. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> 2) There are some calculations that can give you the minimal caloric needs of a frog. (ill or rapidly growing frogs can have a caloric need up to 8 times as much). Assuming we are speaking about a large froglet let us use the values for a 1 gram frog (from Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) (I am using a figure for 25 C as this will increase metabolic need even more) is 0.02 kcal/day. A gross energy value for fruitflies (including undigestiable parts) is 5.12 kcals/gram fruit flies (from Feeding captive insectivorous animals: nutritional aspects of insects as food; 1997, Publication of the AZA Nutrtional Adisory Group Handbook).
> If you work the math then a 1 gram frog at 25 C needs is 0.0039 grams of fruit flies a day to deal with the basic metabolic needs. If anyone has the mass of a fruit fly we can get the exact number of fruit flies a day. (and then multiply it by 8 to reach a good maximal caloric number).
> 
> 
> Ed


A fruit fly weighs a few ten-thousandths of a gram. I couldn't find anything more specific than that. Would that allow us to estimate how many a frog that size needs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Susan,

if you read through that thread, the average weight of a wingless D. melanogaster was in one trial was found to be 7.53 E-4 grams per fly. 

Check out the post in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/9923-how-many-times-week-do-you-feed-your-frogs.html 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> Frogs that are born and die in the wild do not die necessarily because they have poor genes or are bad frogs. Alot of them die due to predation(being in the wrong place at the wrong time), lack of food, disease, etc.
> 
> What I am wondering is, frogs born in captivity do not face all the factors of a wild born frog so why wouldn't the success rate of them growing to adulthood be much much higher in captivity??


Without re-reading the thread, I believe this was a major point in the earlier discussion. To take it to an extreme, if we created genetically identical clones of a "fit survivor" from the wild, would there be any reason to cull them? 

I agree that we need to be very careful about how and why we cull animals. I think the idea of culling animals that are genetically unfit is admirable, but it gets pretty sticky when we try to figure out exactly how to measure "unfit". Does that mean unfit to thrive under the unnatural captive conditions we provide? Does it mean unfit to be desireable by other hobbyists (e.g. too ugly)? 

Fortunately, if our goal is simply to maintain captive populations as representatives of the natural genetic diversity found in the wild (as per ASN guidelines), then we don't need to worry about culling. In conservation breeding, pairings are made based on the mathematical probabably of capturing the full compliment of genetic alleles found in the wild, and maintaining those alleles in as close to the same proportions within the population as they were found in the wild. This requires only managing the number of offspring that each wild founder contributes to successive generations. Culling is done only to maintain the population within a reasonably manageable size and individuals culled are selected at random from within a sibling cohort. In other words, if founder X needs to contribute 20 offspring to generation Y, then 20 of X's direct descendants are selected as breeding stock from generation Y. It's as simple as that. You don't even want to selectively cull animals with apparently deleterious genes as strange as that may seem. This is because a gene that is deleterious under some conditions, may actually prove advantageous under another group of conditions. Plus, when you purposely remove an allele from a population, you may lose additional alleles that are linked to the target allele because of their position in the DNA strand.


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