# having trouble with eggs



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i have a trio 1.2 of r. variabilis "southerns" and have laid several cluthes of eggs. the 1st clutch i left in the tank just to see if they would develop there. they ended up molding over in a few days. 2nd clutch i pulled them the next day and placed them in a tupperware container with a few holes poked in it that i keep my tincs eggs. i misted really well before adding the eggs. i didnt mist them anymore than the initial mist and in a few days they molded over. the most recent clutch they've laid, i pulled the next day, misted the container well then introduced the eggs. skipped a day, then misted the eggs the following day. by this time its day 4 and i also added some methyeline blue to the eggs. i used a mix of 3 drops of methyline blue to 16.9 oz of water. today is day 5 and i was going to mist them and i noticed they have mold on them too. i did noticed for the 1st time egg development. the temps are usually between 70 and 74 degrees. ive morphed out tinc eggs before with the above proceedure with no mold or any other isses, so im a little baffled with my lack of success. do you think i added the methyline blue too late? any help or advice is appreciated.


----------



## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

How about dont pull them until you know for sure they are fertilized...


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

they were fertilized. i see when they're laid and as i stated above i pull the next day. i know exactly what fertilized eggs look like so theres no mistake about that. i have pics of the eggs if you'd like to see them.


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

And technically the male deposits the sperm before the eggs are laid. People have a misconception that they fertilize post egg introduction but it is the other way


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i also wanted to add, when i used methlyline blue, i added it to the sides of the egg mass. i never put the methlyline solution in a spray bottle and misted the egg mass with it.


----------



## sarasmiles (Sep 5, 2012)

I had been having problems with eggs molding when they previously hadn't, and I believe the problem was due to a Vitamin A deficiency in my frogs. You may want to look up some threads regarding Vitamin A deficiency to see if that could be a possible cause of the molding of your eggs. 

Sara


----------



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

sarasmiles said:


> I had been having problems with eggs molding when they previously hadn't, and I believe the problem was due to a Vitamin A deficiency in my frogs. You may want to look up some threads regarding Vitamin A deficiency to see if that could be a possible cause of the molding of your eggs.
> 
> Sara


Here you go!

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...tment/83056-im-worried-about-my-froglets.html


----------



## fishfry (Aug 20, 2006)

I second the Vit A deficiency. Try that for a few months and see if the egg quality improves, it may take a few months to get the egg quality up to par though so you need to be dedicated. I dust all my adult frogs' feeder insects with a powdered Vit A supplement once per week, I feed three times per week generally and dust with a general multivitamin/calcium powder during other feedings. Since I started doing this I have never had an egg development issue again. I don't use methylene blue and pull eggs at 24 hrs once I know they are fertilized. 

Interesting to note, for larger species of amphibians it is also possible to dose Vit A directly from gel caps onto the frogs' head but you would want to work with a capable reptile veterinarian if you went that route.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

it's possible however i supplement at every feeding with repashy calcium plus and i use repashy vitamin a once every two weeks. thank you for your advice, maybe i need to replace these vitamins? my calcium plus says use by 5/2014 but i've had it for probably 5 or 6 months the vitamin a says 3/2014 and i've had that for the same amount of time. i also store the vitamins in the fridge.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

just ordered some vitamins to replace my current ones. i ordered repashy calcium plus and repashy vitamin a. i hope its just old vitamins. from what i read i thought they last a lot longer when stored in the fridge. i've had them for roughly a half a year.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

whitethumb said:


> it's possible however i supplement at every feeding with repashy calcium plus and i use repashy vitamin a once every two weeks. thank you for your advice, maybe i need to replace these vitamins? my calcium plus says use by 5/2014 but i've had it for probably 5 or 6 months the vitamin a says 3/2014 and i've had that for the same amount of time. i also store the vitamins in the fridge.


 http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...g-does-repashy-vitamin-last-2.html#post765738

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...g-does-repashy-vitamin-last-2.html#post765809

If they have been open for six months or more they should be discarded and replaced. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

VenomR00 said:


> And technically the male deposits the sperm before the eggs are laid. People have a misconception that they fertilize post egg introduction but it is the other way


Do you have a reference for this? I've seen this claim in one publication, the author was addressing auratus. More recently this seems to have been translated to all (or most) dart frog species.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/81391-auratus-breeding-male-secretes-first.html

I've seen Ed has stated there is only a couple hour window before the jelly will prevent fertilization. But, I'd like to see more documentation that females are only stimulated to lay eggs after the male does his thing, particularly among other species. I do think it is very unlikely that a male would return to finish the job at a later time.
Most publications, Donoghue, Susan, 2006; Nutrition; In Reptile Medicine and Surgery; for example still state the male fertilizes the eggs after they are laid.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> .
> Most publications, Donoghue, Susan, 2006; Nutrition; In Reptile Medicine and Surgery; for example still state the male fertilizes the eggs after they are laid.


What page??? 

Ed


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Ed said:


> What page???
> 
> Ed


Ed, I found this while searching excerpts from the e-book on google. Page numbers aren't given, but since you have the book I think you can find it. Here is the quote:


> A number of Arrow Poison Frogs (Dart Frogs) do not use amplexus, but instead the male fertilizes the eggs after the female deposits them.


Under the topic "Reproductive Behavior"

Here is the search.

Google


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The reason I asked is not only because I can't find it in the hard copy but that claim goes against the more recent literature.. For a good discussion on it I suggest reviewing Poison Frogs; Lotters et al; 2007; page 145 (Oviposition and Fertilization). On that page it specifically states that in dendrobatid genera (Phyllobates, Adelphobates, Ranitomeya; Dendrobates, and Oophaga) sperm deposition typically occurs *before* egg laying. It is also stated that


> "usually only after his departure that the female begins laying eggs."


There is also a diagram that indicates the male leaves before egg deposition begins on page 147. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okay, just went through the hard copy for a third time. Reptile Medicine and Surgery 2nd edition... There isn't anything in the Nutrition chapter with that title much less about dart frogs. The chapter titled Reproductive Biology does not discuss amphibians at all and I didn't find it in the Amphibian medicine chapter. 

The sole reference to Dendrobates in the index is a link to Strawberry Poison Dart Frog (Dendrobates pumilio)... 

The link to google didn't give me the e-book. 

Ed


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Thanks Ed,
That is what I am looking for.

There are many sources out there, that still say the males will return later to fertilize the eggs. For instance Saurian's website, Quality Captives website, and Dendroboard's own Egg Care Sheet.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13183-egg-care-sheet.html



> If you are planning to remove the eggs and care for them yourself, you should allow for 24-48 hours after the eggs are deposited before you remove them from the viv. This will give the male adequate time to fertilize the eggs.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Also, when using methylene blue, I have read that it can cause oxygen deprivation inthe developing eggs/embryos. My method is a 15 minute bath, then I flush the blue away and replace with fresh water. Also, you may want to do more than a misting of the eggs. Myself, I use glass petri dishes with lids, and I put in maybe 1mm of water in the dish, just enough to come up to the sides/edge of the egg, but NOT ever it. I was encountering the same molding egg problem as you, but I was usign VERY old supplements. I have seen a better fertility rate since usign new supplements. I also took all film cans out for a month to give them a break while re-upping on supplements.


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Here is the screen shot of my google search.

It may be 2005 edition. I would have thought everyone's google search would be the same from the link I provided.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

thank you for the responses... i ordered repashy calcium plus and repashy vitamin a to replace their older versions lol. i remember vaughly i might have had this problem before with my tincs and if i remember correctly this corrected the issue. that was about 6 months ago (just guessing really). i dont even pull out a weeks worth of vitamins out of the fridge to use for flies. i scoop straight from the fridge to the cup at every feeding. never had an issue


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I have some frogs that I have gotten good eggs before but the majority bad. I tried the supplement schedules recommended here, still not getting good eggs. They get fertile, develop, then mold. Wish I could figure the trick out for some of these guys. 

One thing that did help was to break the tank down, disinfect everything, and change the sphagnum substrate. This seemed to clean up the environment a bit and it helped in some instances, but not all. This would not really be feasible for "permanent" style enclosures. I was able to do this with my more temporary like set ups. One thing to try is to clean out the canisters. May have some mold growth in the tank already and it transfers over? I feel that was part of my problem, but was not a universal solution.


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

whitethumb said:


> i dont even pull out a weeks worth of vitamins out of the fridge to use for flies. i scoop straight from the fridge to the cup at every feeding. never had an issue


This is not recommended, as every time you open the bag; you let moisture in. This can degrade the vitamins over time. It's better to take out enough for a week or two at a time.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i dont buy it by the bag, i buy it by the jar. when its feeding time, i take the jar out of the fridge and set it on the dinner table. open the jar and put some powder into the cup and grab a jar of flies and go outside and pour off the flies into the cup outside. in case any stray flies dont make it into the cup they are outside. once done with all my tanks, i put the jar back into the fridge. however i dont leave the lid open in between tanks. i close the lid right after pouring off a little in the cup. could you point me to a thread or a web site to show me what your talking about? thanks


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/90921-life-calcium-plus-products.html#post802650

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22296-vitamin-shelf-life-split-code-ethics.html#post202096

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/68534-repashy-products.html#post600379


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> Here is the screen shot of my google search.
> 
> It may be 2005 edition. I would have thought everyone's google search would be the same from the link I provided.


Okay, using your search phrases I got the page on google... from there I was finally able to locate it in the text.... 

I was thrown off since you originally listed it as being in the Nutrition chapter and I was pretty sure it wasn't (and after the third search was able to pretty much cement it in my mind that it wasn't)... 

The correct reference is Lock, Brad A.; 2005; Behavioral and Morphological Adaptions _In_ Reptile Medicine and Surgery eds Mader, Douglas; Saunders/Elsevier; Canada. 

It is an unreferenced statement on page 176, second column 6th paragraph. It is followed by some specific referenced examples but was clearly made with the idea that it was common knowledge. This is just an example of poor research on the topic.... 

As we know from other taxa of anurans, that once the jelly surrounding the eggs begins to swell, it inhibits sperm motilty so for the male to return to fertilize the eggs is simply not in line with how we understand it behaviorally or physiologically ...

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> I have some frogs that I have gotten good eggs before but the majority bad. I tried the supplement schedules recommended here, still not getting good eggs. They get fertile, develop, then mold. Wish I could figure the trick out for some of these guys.
> .


Have you considered temperature may be at the root of the problem? Many dendrobatids are found in warmer temperatures than is common in the hobby during the breeding season.... Many of the pathenogenic molds do better at cooler temperatures...... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

My temps are fairly stable most times of year...mid 70s. Right now I am higher 60s to lower 70s and breeding has slowed a bit for some frogs. What temp range would you think the eggs would do better at?

Also, I have other frogs in same room, same shelf, no issues. Same species in some instances (possibly different morph though)? Would something like temp be more of a universal problem?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> My temps are fairly stable most times of year...mid 70s. Right now I am higher 60s to lower 70s and breeding has slowed a bit for some frogs. What temp range would you think the eggs would do better at?
> 
> Also, I have other frogs in same room, same shelf, no issues. Same species in some instances (possibly different morph though)? Would something like temp be more of a universal problem?


Same shelf doesn't mean that the temperatures are the same in the enclosures where the eggs are deposited. A few degrees can change the risk to the eggs. I would suggest trying to incubate the eggs of those your having issues with molding at between 78-80 F and see if that changes the rate of molding. 

How closely related are the frogs that are having issues? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Panguana Lamasi obtained from fairly close to what I am guessing is one of the more original sources....but with the decline in those guys.....who knows.

Flavovittata....offspring from understory line....so not many generations in. Same with one of my tarapota imitator group.

Could try incubating the next clutch I get. Flavos are laying pretty regularly. I have gotten one tad and now its a frog out of 40-50 plus eggs.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ranitomeya flavovittata is found in a region where the temperature is pretty consistent and runs about 25-27 C (77-80 F)... See CPD: South America, Site SA9, Iquitos Region, Peru, Columbia for the climate in the Iquitos region.. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

They start to develop then go bad. Definitely something I will try the next clutch I get. I have an incubator that's empty now ....how convenient.


----------



## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

ed for my situation would you say that my southerns have a vitamine a deficiency?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vitamin A deficiency is very wide spread and common in captive anurans... It is the simplest place to start and based on anecdotal reports the one that results in the most rapid correction. You can also have deficient frogs that lay good eggs... it just means that the level of deficiency hasn't reached the point where the eggs are impacted (although at that point it is impacting the immune system of the frogs). 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> I have some frogs that I have gotten good eggs before but the majority bad. I tried the supplement schedules recommended here, still not getting good eggs. They get fertile, develop, then mold. Wish I could figure the trick out for some of these guys.
> 
> One thing that did help was to break the tank down, disinfect everything, and change the sphagnum substrate. This seemed to clean up the environment a bit and it helped in some instances, but not all. This would not really be feasible for "permanent" style enclosures. I was able to do this with my more temporary like set ups. One thing to try is to clean out the canisters. May have some mold growth in the tank already and it transfers over? I feel that was part of my problem, but was not a universal solution.


I forgot to ask before... did you use the straight vitamin A supplement? If so how often and how long? 

Ed


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I did use the Repashy Vitamin A. For those frogs I only dusted once a week for only a few weeks, then I just went back to using it once a month or so. I didn't want to push it. I did feel it helped with a pair of anthonyi though. 

Would Vit A deficiency cause molding part way through? Or should I still try the incubator for the flavs? Then for the imitators, they aren't really forming, almost like a fertilization issue, though I do have offspring from the pair, so he wasn't completely sterile at one point.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> I did use the Repashy Vitamin A. For those frogs I only dusted once a week for only a few weeks, then I just went back to using it once a month or so. I didn't want to push it. I did feel it helped with a pair of anthonyi though.


Then you can't really say you followed the recommended course of supplementation and it didn't work.... since you aborted it early... 

If the frogs had a significant vitamin A deficiency then this is insufficient to correct the problem... Once a week for months. People are over thinking the potential toxicity risk from vitamin A. Instead your potentially continuing the issues with vitamin A deficiency which also reduces the frog's immune system as long as the frog is deficient. 



mydumname said:


> Would Vit A deficiency cause molding part way through? Or should I still try the incubator for the flavs? Then for the imitators, they aren't really forming, almost like a fertilization issue, though I do have offspring from the pair, so he wasn't completely sterile at one point.


Infertility and death before hatching can both be due to vitamin A deficiency. Vitamin A is required for proper development of the embryos (for example a lack of vitamin A will result in the lack of formation of a prekidney or later on the actual kidneys) with the resulf of death. The embryos maybe too weak to resist infection (the fungal infection may be secondary to bacterial infections...)..... 

As for the temperatures, this may be a contributing factor since your keeping the eggs at temperatures which are sub-optimal at best.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I'll try it out. Do you suggest all eggs to.be incubated at that 80 degree mark? I have my room with my tadpoles, eggs, and bugs heated to be in the mid 70s. 

But yes the flavo eggs for the most part were left in the tank in the frog room which is cooler then the tadpole room. Especially during winter months.

For the supplements.....I can't remember the exact amount of time I continued supplementing, but it definitely wasn't for months. Could a frog only a year and a half old be that deficient in vitamin a? Even with regular supplementation of calcium plus (this contains a right?) And monthly supplementation of just vitamin a?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A frog right out of the water can be deficient in vitamin A so yes, any age frog can be deficient... 

At this time based on anecdotal reports, the supplements with a retinoid source of vitamin A appear to keep the symptoms from getting worse but do not contain sufficient amounts to get the frog back to a normal status particularly if it is under conditions where it is reproducing continually (or calling) or growing. All of those put greater demands for those nutrients. Once the frogs are restored to baseline levels, the complete supplement appears sufficient to keep the frog from relapsing (but this could depend on condtions as well)... 

None of the frogs remain reproductively active for months in the wild (and in some it can be as short as several weeks (see for example how short a period of time wild tinctorius remain reproductively active http://www.revistasusp.sibi.usp.br/pdf/philo/v9n1/v9n1a02.pdf).... 

It won't hurt to incubate the eggs at the warmer temperature but it can take several months to reverse severe vitamin A deficiency..... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I'll give the vit a another shot for a longer period and see what happens. Just a couple pairs. Not like I could ever go through the a in six months anyway so I have plenty of it.

Thanks for the input.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You should really do it for at least a couple of months before backing off on the frequency of use (and even then still use it at least once a month for at least several more months). After about two months if it is a vitamin A deficiency you should see some improvement in development.. Keep an eye on the eggs to see of any of the embryos swell up at all before the eggs go bad. That is a pretty good clue that they are deficient in A since that is a sign that they did not properly develop a pronephros. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------

