# Sex my tarapotos, please? :)



## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Good evening, all!

I posted a similar question about my vanzoliniis... Now for the next part of my conundrum. I have a proven pair of frogs labeled as a proven pair, and was hoping to identify who is who. Could you guys help me identify which frog is which? I have been listening for calls and such, and thus far, I have not heard any, but they are also fairly new acquisitions as well. And now, the tarapoto pair... (There is another thread as I stated above about my vanzolinii pair asking the sane thing.) Thank you in advance for the help!

Tarapoto A:
















Tarapoto B: 
















Melody


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Looks like A is male and B is female. I wish they would blow up bigger.


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## KDuraiswamy (Dec 2, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Looks like A is male and B is female. I wish they would blow up bigger.


I agree. The frog A looks skinnier than frog B, which makes me think that frog A would be the male.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Ok, an update: Tarapoto B was calling - so I have what I would presume is a male there. Tarapoto A is the one in question now... I am going to deli cup them tomorrow and see if I can get "A" to give a call... so if I am following all correctly, this proven pair looks more to be like a dominant and submissive male? I'm still trying to get the hang of sexing these guys... My eyes aren't always the greatest there, so I put blind faith in a proven pair being indeed a proven pair... big fail on my part there if this turns out to be the case.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Should also add that I was told they were a 'very proven pair' of tarapotos and their offspring were supposed in a container next to them, which made naïve me comfortable that they were indeed a 'very proven pair', although if they are indeed a male/male vs proven pair, I would certainly like to know how they successfully laid eggs and reared young... Was told they were laying eggs and such regularly, hence the offspring that were being sold next to them... Since acquiring them about 3 weeks ago, I have yet to see any eggs. It's entirely possible they are hidden within the terrarium and I just haven't found them yet, but I would presume if they were breeding as regularly as they were stated to be and the proper terrarium conditions were provided, I would assume I would see something by now? I have bromeliads and film canisters; there is leaf litter which upon rooting through has shown nothing... same with the film canisters and bromeliads. *sigh*


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You never know the sex FOR SURE until you catch the male calling and the female laying. I've seen fat males and slender females.
Do you have reason to mistrust your seller's word on this?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I wouldn't worry yet... 3 weeks is nothing. It can take a long time for frogs to get settled in to new surroundings. I have breeding groups that have taken breaks for longer than that for no particular reason at all. 

if you dont mind me asking, what makes you so sure you are providing "proper terrarium conditions"? Planting and hardscaping can play a huge role in that... It's not just temps, humidity, food and supplements.

Also, digging through the leaf litter and disturbing the frogs looking for eggs is only going to make things worse. Take a deep breathe, relax, and let them get settled in. It's not unheard of for it to take several months for frogs to get breeding again after being relocated.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

What is concerning to me is the fact that I was first off told these are a 'very proven pair', was told that they were regularly laying eggs, and some of their offspring was in a deli container for sale next to them. I would think (correct me please if I am wrong with this belief) that a very proven pair should have laid eggs by now after being in my care for almost 3 week in a properly set up terrarium (I have other darts that are indeed proven and breeding regularly for me right now). I also have another 'very proven pair' of vanzoliniis that you can see in my other sexing thread here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/identification-forum/98233-sex-my-vanzoliniis-please.html
... that people are stating look like two males and again, came from the same seller. 
I understand completely what you are saying regarding proven pairs, which is why when I saw the deli cup of what appeared to be smaller tarapotos next to this 'proven pair' and was told those younger tarapotos were their offspring, I naively took the seller's word for it.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Please don't get me wrong, I'm by no means stating I am an all-knowing god of dart frogs, but at the same time, it just seems awful odd to me that a pair that was so very proven supposedly by the seller suddenly stopped breeding altogether. It's also awful odd that the other 'proven pair' I was sold appears to be two males, as well. There are other things I am beginning to discover that are sending up red flags with me which makes me further question whether I really got what I paid for. 
I have other imitator species that are courting, as well as a few other non imitators that are also doing well on the courting front in similar setups. High humidity, 10 gallon vert, temps during the day are mid 70s, hardscaped with wood, bromeliads, etc., as well as microfauna, film canisters at a 45 degree angle with a little water added in each, etc etc... Without getting into specifics, there are just some things that aren't adding up right now... It's entirely possible they are taking a break as you stated, but at the same time, just based on what I am beginning to learn, I am starting to get concerns about the legitimacy of these two being an actual 'very proven pair' of tarapotos...


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

msb5446 said:


> What is concerning to me is the fact that I was first off told these are a 'very proven pair', was told that they were regularly laying eggs, and some of their offspring was in a deli container for sale next to them. I would think (correct me please if I am wrong with this belief) that a very proven pair should have laid eggs by now after being in my care for almost 3 week in a properly set up terrarium (I have other darts that are indeed proven and breeding regularly for me right now).


"Very proven pair" is no guarantee that the frogs will ever lay again nor does it have anything to do with the frequency of laying... It just means that they have gotten multiple viable offspring from the frogs. Like I mentioned before, I have had my own frogs take breaks from breeding for longer periods of time than that without them being disturbed, sold and put in a new home. 

I'm going to echo what Doug said... Do you have reason to believe the seller lied to you? Also, were these purchased locally? (if so, from who? Feel free to PM the response to me.)


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Alright so personal communication has revealed that something fishy may be going on here... 

However, I just wanted to clarify for anyone else (particularly those new to the hobby) that may be reading this thread... Buying a proven pair/group of frogs is by no means a guarantee that you will get any breeding activity, especially within 3 weeks of the purchase. All it means is that the frogs have had breeding success in the past. It is by no means a guarantee that they will continue to do so. It is incredibly likely, but again, not a guarantee.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Melody moving established frogs usually sets them off for a few weeks and sometimes months, I would not bother them for a good 5 or 6 weeks looking for eggs unless you see breeding behavior, courting , calling and following each other around. They should settle in and start back up however some vendors sell "pairs of frogs" that literally means that....2 frogs. If the person you got them from is legit, they should be what they were sold as, especially with babies being available.
You could PM the name of who you got them from to a few folks and likely someone could tell you if you got them from someone you can trust or not.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Thank you for all of the help thus far. I have uploaded some newer pictures as I did with the vanzos, as well as a sort of side by side shot I got of them. The confirmed male was calling and decided to hop up to where the unidentified one was and appeared to sit on it briefly before moving off of him - that's when I took the picture I took. Pictures are as follows:

Tarapoto A:

















Confirmed Male Tarapoto B:









As with the vanzos, there is serious question on the validity of these two being an actual pair, and would appreciate an extra set of eyes to help me out on this one... thank you again, all!

Melody


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

For some reason, my Internet hamster is having technical difficulties so here is the side by side I got and didn't upload:









Melody


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## IEatBugs (May 15, 2012)

Hey Melody, just as others have already said, when moving frogs from one place to another it will disrupt their breeding. I have had pairs stop for months at a time and have had newly acquired, proven pairs not breed for months after bringing them into my care. Just something to think about.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

I was trying to handle this in a somewhat discreet manor, but unfortunately, I am not sure how to do this without looking like a complete buffoon anymore. These frogs, along with my pair of vanzolinis were purchased from a seller who I have later found out is very questionable to say the least, and depending on the response I receive in my pm to this seller, will dictate what I openly discuss versus pm. I do understand everything regarding the possibility of stress and environmental change being a factor that could potentially cause a known pair to cease breeding, and other factors as well. The problem lies in the fact that I am seriously suspicious of being lied to about these being a 'very proven pair', let alone even a 'sexed pair' after a trail of lies from this seller is being discovered. Friends of mine were bs'ed to about their purchases, which between that, information I learned through further investigating, as well as observing my frogs, has led me to seriously question whether I too, was had. Short of talking froggie-eese to them and getting themselves to tell me whether they are male or female, I am trying to do what I can to verify sexes in as soon as possible so that I can pursue action, if necessary against the seller for misrepresenting their frogs to me. I am already aware these frogs were not the seller's own breeding stock as initially claimed by the seller, so I know I was already lied to there. So now the question is is if these two are even a pair at all. I can wait for eggs and such - that is fine. I just want to be sure these two are indeed a pair and not just two males as I am beginning to suspect here. I hope this clarifies what this thread is for. While I would love to give these guys weeks/months to let me know on their terms, it makes it very difficult to pursue anything against the seller if I handle this several weeks/months after the purchase. My apologies if this response comes off as harsh, I am just livid at the possibility that I shelled out good money that I had to scrape together as it stood for frogs that were most likely not what I paid for. Thanks again, all.


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

If the calling male (B) gave a short, loud call then jumped on top of A you almost certainly have 2 males. What you described is pretty much exactly what I would expect from two males duking it out.

I'm sorry, I'm sure that sucks!

Edit: Could you PM me the name of the vendor?


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

This is a video I just took of them where you can see the calling male and unconfirmed tarapoto. The calling male is on the right, and unconfirmed on the left. The video was initially fuzzy at first - sorry about that. The calling male started to pursue the unconfirmed tarapoto, and that's when I ran and grabbed my phone and recorded what I saw - wasn't as dramatic has what I saw earlier when I took a side by side shot. Link will be live in 20 minutes of this response going live, per youtube. Feel free to watch it and throw in your two cents as to whether or not this is another example of probable male - male aggression. Link is here:

Possible Male To Male Aggression In Terapotos - YouTube 

Again, if you click on it and it claims its invalid or whatever - hang tight - it's uploading as I am writing this out... the internet hamsters are apparently drunk today as my internet is seriously dragging.

Melody


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Video is now live.

Melody


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I have never kept that species of frog but I think that could be aggression. Also those frogs look to be identically shaped, to me. However, it could also be a reluctant female. And it could be my lack of experience with these frogs that keeps me from seeing a difference in their shape. So, yea, thanks for nothing frogface! lol

Seriously, without calling and/or eggs, it is very difficult to be positive. That's why people will pay so much for a proven pair. And also why some can and will take advantage of that.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

I wish I recorded what I saw when I took the side by side shot of them. The calling male followed the unconfirmed frog into the upper corner of the terrarium, hopped on top of him, called, and hopped off. Called a few more times and just sat there. The side by side shot was after he hopped off and just started calling next to the other one. Too bad I don't know frog-eese... I could just ask them to tell me what they are... Ugh.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

msb5446 said:


> I wish I recorded what I saw when I took the side by side shot of them. The calling male followed the unconfirmed frog into the upper corner of the terrarium, hopped on top of him, called, and hopped off. Called a few more times and just sat there. The side by side shot was after he hopped off and just started calling next to the other one. Too bad I don't know frog-eese... I could just ask them to tell me what they are... Ugh.


That sounds very much like aggression.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

... and that's what I am fearing it is. I am setting them up in smaller terrariums individually on a permanent basis until further notice. My gut feeling especially knowing the facts of the seller and watching these frogs interacting? 2 males. Seller was PMed about this and I am waiting on his response as to how I am going to proceed; based on his handlings with other folks, however, methinks I am going to have to take this a step forward and start pursuing something on a legal level. A happy person I am not, but a seasoned, 'taughted' person I am. May my mistake be a lesson on the value of checking out folks irregardless. I will continue to try to record other actions and try to get further proof on sexes, because at this point, I am pissed.


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