# Seizing Pum



## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Any other treatment for a seizing pum froglet besides ARS soaks and Calcium gluconate drops?

-Nish


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

nish07 said:


> Any other treatment for a seizing pum froglet besides ARS soaks and Calcium gluconate drops?
> 
> -Nish


Not really---just reduce stress and handling further, and wait.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Is it still seizing despite the use of calcium gluconate? 

Ed


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Seizing after a long soak in ARS has almost stopped but today as I was checking it out was having somewhat minor muscle spasms where the stomach seemed to be undulating and the frog was laying down, unable to move. This is less than the all out spams that it was having where it would sit with it's arms and legs extended and sometimes flip over in the process. It's not eating much at all that I can tell and definitely not supplemented food.

-Nish


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

nish07 said:


> Seizing after a long soak in ARS has almost stopped but today as I was checking it out was having somewhat minor muscle spasms where the stomach seemed to be undulating and the frog was laying down, unable to move. This is less than the all out spams that it was having where it would sit with it's arms and legs extended and sometimes flip over in the process. It's not eating much at all that I can tell and definitely not supplemented food.
> 
> -Nish


This is, unfortunately, also a possible symptom of chytrid infection...However, if you are aware that it was caused by supplementation issues, then I guess you have your answer---but if you are in doubt, have the specimen tested as soon as possible. Contact John with Pisces Molecular for test information. You will know if the rest of your collection has similar or behavioral problems, wasting or bloating despite eating or not being gut-loaded with parasites, etc., which can point to chytrid. Any new items added to your tank recently from another's collection? Or are you using old supplements?


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I hilghly doubt it's chytrid. It's a froglet in quarantine. The other sibling is fine. Been meaning to buy stuff to make pooled samples to send to picies but haven't yet.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

While ARS will help with this you also want to get some calcium gluconate. If the froglet is not eating that much then you want to supplement it with UVB so it will metabolize provitamin D to D3. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Also, some report that around the fragile time of 6 months or so, there is a higher die-off rate of juvi darts. Waiting to buy until the frogs are 9-10 months is safer. If it is very young, it may only be due to stress---but better to be safe and test than sorry. If the cause of death remains unknown, there is still a risk of introducing something to the viv. Are there plenty of hiding places in the quarantine tank? Many frogs will not eat the first day or so after quarantine, and bugs crawling over and around them can stress them out, in addition to attention, poking and prodding by the 'giant hand' in their tank. I recommend turning out the lights for a couple of days, don't feed for a day and see if this helps---if the seizing didn't stop as a result of the soaks and supplementation, it seems only that it could be either stress or chytrid---but better to consult a vet.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There seems to be a trend in pumio froglets that some aspect of the husbandry makes them susceptiable to calcium metabolism disruptions after metamorphosis. This at least in some collections has led to a higher death rate (reported anecdotally) before six months of age but that doesn't mean it can't still be an issue after that age. 
ARS is better than pedialyte by the simple virture that it contains calcium while pedialyte does not but according to current treatment plan use by itself is not enough to resolve calcium insufficiency (see Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry). This is typically treated through the use of calcium gluconate/glubionate soak in a 2.3% solution (again Aphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry). If the frog's calcium issues are due to insufficient D3 then the frog will need access to either a source of D3 (not D2 which is commonly used in human supplements as it is cheaper) through a supplement or UVB exposure along with the increased calcium levels. While there are other causes, calcium metabolism disruption is the most common. 

Ed


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

UVB compact fluroescent sitting over its tub atm with saran wrap on the top to keep from filtering the UV. Will try alternating drops of ars and ca gluconate throughout the day. Not sure I want to do a soak and stress them if I can get by without it. Will see what happens.

-Nish


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just make sure the dilution of the calcium gluconate/glubionate is the correct. It is too concentrated right out of the bottle. 
Look at a soak this way. Is it more stressful to do a soak and then be done with it for a day to continually have this huge thing approach and drip stuff on you? 

Ed


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I don't know if it's because the pum has issues with muscle control or what but when I did the ARS soak he suicide bombed his head into it and it scared me. I ended up putting paper towel down and soaking it with ARS instead so it couldn't drown itself. It did seem to be doing much better after that soak though. I'm not so sure sitting on a paper towel that's soaked with ca gluconate is as good as sitting in the solution itself and I don't want a repeat of the holding his head under the water thing. Still considering it though.

-Nish


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

the paper towel method is a viable option. 

Ed


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