# need some help with pumilio



## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

For the past week or two I noticed one of my remaining almirante pumilio slowly start to lose weight; it is on a diet of springtails and mal. FF. I have been treating the frog with inj. metronidazole to try to help stimulate eating. Is there anything else I can use/feed to try to get it to eat? It doesn't seem to like the FF; when ever I med. and feed it the frog would just look away from the FF.

Thanks ADAM

before pic









after pic


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

This is the obvious advice, but i'll say it anyway, you should get a fecal done ASAP to figure out exactly what is going on with this guy. Hopefully it's not too late.


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

I sent out a fecal last week to Dr. Frye and the results came back neg. the only thing I can think of is that this little guy is a picky eater. Can you think of some different foods to try?
Thanks
ADAM


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

termites, aphids, lesser wax worms, etc.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2004)

Just how many springtails are you offering? Their main diet in the wild is mites and the like, so I would definitely have thousands of Collembola available. Termites would be good if it'll take them, but I kind of doubt it.
j


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

also parasitic wasps, pinheads...

One of my tinc froglets was a very picky eater for a while. The way i was able to get him to eat was to put a small coco-hut in his shoebox. He would always stay inside of it and i would throw a few fruitflies at a time in the hut and would see him finally eat them. It worked, and he is now much bolder, though still about half of the size of his fellow froglets due to this period of him not eating.

Not sure if it will help you, but thought i would share a similar experience.

good luck.


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

> Just how many springtails are you offering? Their main diet in the wild is mites and the like, so I would definitely have thousands of Collembola available. Termites would be good if it'll take them, but I kind of doubt it.
> j


I am not sure of the exact dumber but I would say at least a couple hundred. I just take the paper towel that is used to keep the culture moist and give it a couple of shakes in the shoe box. 

Would rice flour beetles work, from the pic on ED's Fly Meat site they look really small.
ADAM


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

I dont like your paper towels for two reasons; the first is that it has been bleached to make it white and secondly springtails may be less visible on white towels.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Have you seen the frog eat the springtails?

If so, maybe you just need to put in a lot more.


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

> I dont like your paper towels for two reasons; the first is that it has been bleached to make it white and secondly springtails may be less visible on white towels.
> _________________
> Timothy Stout


That makes since, do you think a spag. and coco. mix would work?
ADAM


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

> also parasitic wasps, pinheads...
> 
> One of my tinc froglets was a very picky eater for a while. The way i was able to get him to eat was to put a small coco-hut in his shoebox. He would always stay inside of it and i would throw a few fruitflies at a time in the hut and would see him finally eat them. It worked, and he is now much bolder, though still about half of the size of his fellow froglets due to this period of him not eating.
> 
> Not sure if it will help you, but thought i would share a similar experience.


I will try the coco hut out also. Do you know of anyplace I can get some para. wasps?
ADAM


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

http://www.planetnatural.com/beneficialinsects1.html


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

Would a smaller plastic box be better to put this little guy in so that the springtails and other insects are not so spread out?
ADAM


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## RSines (Feb 15, 2004)

hi,
I would set up a mini viv. Get a 5 g tank, uses LECA and co-co. Put some plants in there to provide cover. Feed with springies and pin heads. Contact a vet and get a fecal. Monitor exactly what it is eating. I wouldn't worry about trying different food, I would worry about getting it meds.

-Richard


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

I have had good success with those 2.5 gallon tanks they sell at Petsmart for $10. They even come with a glass lid.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I can say that I had a issue like this with a retic, and I managed to keep it alive for about 3 months, but ended up losing it. No idea what caused it, and I treated it with a couple of different things.


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## RSines (Feb 15, 2004)

Mindcrash,
Exactly, I have so many of them. I am going to get a few more tonight. There is 1 flaw in the design. The plastic rim has an area that can allow escapes even from large size frogs. I bought 1/8th inch weather stripping from ACE and placed it all around the edge of the 2.5 g tanks. This allows the glass top to fit snuggly. I then silicone wooden knobs on the tops. 

-Richard


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Do you guys have any pics of these tanks? I have not seen any with glass lids? How much are they?


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## RSines (Feb 15, 2004)

Kyle, I will take a pic when I get home. Its just an AGA 2.5 g tank. You can see them at http://www.all-glass.com./products/hoods/index.html Click on accessories. There is no hinge its just a flat piece of glass that is the approx. size of the top (12x6). I pay about $2.50-$3 for the top and $6-7 for the tank. I swear by them, never buy a 'criterkeeper' or shoe box again. 

-Rich


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

With the 5 2.5 gallon tanks I have set up I went to a glass store to get the lids cut alot more accurately than the ones that you can buy at the store. Each tank varies a little bit due to the nature of the cheap plastic rim so I have had to scrape the plastic away to be able to fit some of the lids on. I then silicon a small acrylic cube to one side to use as a handle. Each lid seals perfectly with no gaps for melogansters or springtails to escape, much less frogs.

rob


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Interesting, I bought a 5gal, and had the issue with the lid not fitting. I just need to get a dremel to fix it. But I may buy 3-4 10gals and then get some lids custom made. I am on the hunt for cheaper glass. I am trying to work out some stands to free up some space, but have not had a chance to make any yet.


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2004)

Hi Adam,
I've even had captive born pumilio go off feed for quite some time for no good reason as well. What I've done in the past is place the frog in it's own container (12"x6"x5") and provide lots and lots of hiding places. I use fake plastic aquarium plants for this. Then I seed the substrate with tons of springtails, and I mean at least several hundred. I'll toss in a couple of fruitflies as well, but only about 10-15. Then I place the container in a dimly lit area, far from the everday bustle and traffic of your home. This will give your pumilio time to itself and be able to remain undisturbed for days. This method has worked for me in the past on several occasions, and I truly believe the "leave alone" method helps immensely with wild-caught frogs. They're just not as acclimated to captive life as most of our other frogs, and going undisturbed for long lengths of time seems to ease their stresses (which sounds like the culprit in this situation, since you've already had fecals done). I only peer into the container to check on the frog every few days, and I try to be as non-intrusive as possible.
In this situation, your pumilio looks pretty emaciated, so I'd definitely give him a couple of pedialyte soaks before you put him in his "solitary confinement". 
Hope this helps and please keep us updated!


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

addam4208283 said:


> I have been treating the frog with inj. metronidazole to try to help stimulate eating.


Adam,

Are you _injecting_ metronidazole. If so, I would stop immediately. Drip metronidazole on the frogs back. The needle you typically get with a bag of met. is only there to remove the fluid from the bag.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I haven't heard rice flour beetle larvae mentioned. They are a great high calorie, small food source. Wasps for sure. Springtails may be a starvation diet for pumilio. Small froglets reared on springtails rarely make it. They are good for adding variety but I suspect not calorically dense.


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2004)

I've raised a few dozen pumilio froglets on nothing but springtails for their first 2-3 months with no ill effects. Springtails are also a great way to stimulate feeding responses in finicky eaters because of their small size. I agree that they shouldn't be the main staple of adult frogs, but they make up a very large portion of all of my frogs' diets. For a sick/stressed frog that's depleted of nutrition, small foods such as this will help it recover enough to begin feeding on larger prey items in the future.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Randy said:


> I've raised a few dozen pumilio froglets on nothing but springtails for their first 2-3 months with no ill effects. Springtails are also a great way to stimulate feeding responses in finicky eaters because of their small size. I agree that they shouldn't be the main staple of adult frogs, but they make up a very large portion of all of my frogs' diets. For a sick/stressed frog that's depleted of nutrition, small foods such as this will help it recover enough to begin feeding on larger prey items in the future.


I agree that springtails are a great food and use them myself a lot. But in the earlier days of cb pumilio several of the breeders had problems getting small morphed froglets to put on any size or weight with springtails. Wasps seemed to do the trick much better, or pinheads if the froglets are large enough. Given past experience I question their value as a staple just like you said. I also agree they are great as a feeding stimulant but for a thin frog, I think it's important not to try to "fatten" the frog on springtails just because that is what the frog will eat. Interestingly many pumilio breeders have gone to letting the froglets stay in the rearing viv longer until they are large enough to take ff or pinheads at least. A good viv seems to support enough microfauna to get them going.

Also, I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but I once had a pumilio froglet go off feed and start to lose weight. I exposed the froglet to UV light and within minutes it perked up and started foraging. That frog is still alive a couple years later. Now I raise all of my pumilio with some exposure to UVB.

Finally, why not set up a Burlese funnel and try feeding the diversity of mites, springtails, pseudoscorpions and other microfauna that can be obtained that way?


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2004)

> Finally, why not set up a Burlese funnel and try feeding the diversity of mites, springtails, pseudoscorpions and other microfauna that can be obtained that way?


What is that?

and someone on frognet mentioned minyobates... I was thinking (this was sparked by something one of the breeders I got my vents from said too), is it would be interesting to have a small viv, with some truly small frogs, where instead of feeding the frogs you fed the micro fauna that the frogs ate. Would something like this be sustainable? Kind of like those closed eco systems with the algea and brine shrim?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

A burlese funnel is a device used by entomologists to collect soil arthropods. They are easy to set up. All you need is a large funnel (the larger the better. Cut a circle of metal window screen about 2" in diameter and put it in the bottom of the funnel. You may have to put a circle of 1/4" hail screen in first to suppor the window screen. Put several scoops of organic matter rich soil or compost into th funnel. Set up the funnel with a warm incandescent lamp over the top and so the bottom of the funnel is suspended over a jar for collecting the arthropods. I would put a little damp peat or sphagnum in the jar to keep the collected arthropods from dessicating. The heat from the lamp warms and dries the soil in the funnel. As this happens, the arthropods migrate down to the cool moist areas. When they get to the screen, the drop through into the jar. Excellent food for any dart frogs.


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