# Fish in water feature keep dying...



## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

I'm about ready to scrap my vivarium currently housing my auratus. It's a 29gallon with a ~4gal water feature/aquarium on one end. 

The water feature has quite a few aquatic plants which are thriving. Cycled with Tetra SafeStart Plus for the Nitrogen cycle. Water tests for healthy paramers for fish. 

Unfortunately, I've added fish twice now and each time all perish within one or two days. I even managed to off an aquatic snail... I have a lone blue mystery snail that's lasted a week and it's acting funny (stays inside it's shell or just emerges and stays stationary). 

I've ran my own water tests and even brought samples to fish stores and all test within proper perimeters (ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, ph, alkalinity, KH)

I'm afraid there is a toxin in either the GE Silicone II I used or possibly the river rocks I got from Lowes (thoroughly rinsed).

Should I be afraid for my frogs?


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## spider107 (Apr 1, 2008)

Silicone 2 is the wrong kind. Use silicone I and it should include under specifications "safe for incidental food contact" on the back. If your fully aquatic animals are suffering I would say remove and redo.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks for the reply.

I read mixed reviews on the GE silicone II and used it before realizing some people had problems. It's weird how my plants are doing fine and not the animals.

Unfortunately, for me, I am going to deconstruct the vivarium just to be on the safe side. I feel bad enough killing a few tetras and a snail...


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Sorry to hear about your loss of the fish (and the snail....I love mollusks). Look at the positive though, at least you have provided one more anecdotal case of Silicone II possibly causing problems. Hopefully you helped save a few fish from the same fate : /


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## Coppertop (Aug 13, 2011)

I'd also question some other parts of the setup before jumping straight to blaming the GE. What kind of water flow was provided? What is the temp of the water? Did you acclimate the fish beforehand? Did you notice any abnormal behavior from the fish (gulping at surface, obvious signs of infection, etc)?


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

There is an amazing product called polyfilter which will change color as it absorbs different contaminants in the water it is expensive but a phenomenal product to keep on hand as it absorbs mostly anything


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## wriggles (Apr 5, 2014)

How long did you let the silicone set for before continuing with the tank? did it still have a vinegar smell to it?


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Coppertop said:


> I'd also question some other parts of the setup before jumping straight to blaming the GE. What kind of water flow was provided? What is the temp of the water? Did you acclimate the fish beforehand? Did you notice any abnormal behavior from the fish (gulping at surface, obvious signs of infection, etc)?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The water feature has a small water fall/trickle powered by a powerhead with filter. and there is an air stone too. Current is not strong.

I have had aquariums in the past and I acclimated all fish by floating the bags then slowly adding tank water. 

There was a water heater and water is at 78.

There is a white film forming on the brown siliconed water barrier and marimo balls.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

kblack3 said:


> There is an amazing product called polyfilter which will change color as it absorbs different contaminants in the water it is expensive but a phenomenal product to keep on hand as it absorbs mostly anything
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have not seen this product. Do you have a link?


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

wriggles said:


> How long did you let the silicone set for before continuing with the tank? did it still have a vinegar smell to it?


Silicone set for about a week and all smell was gone.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

I agree I can't jump to conclusions about the cause. I am just concerned about my frogs


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## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

I would pull the frogs and gut it. I normally try to talk dart frog keepers from having an inhabited water feature for a variety of reasons but if the fish are only lasting a few days the toxicity of the water must be pretty high and will affect your frogs before long...
GL with the redo.

Right after writing the above I double checked a tube of brown GE silicone I was about to start a project with. It turned out to be Silicone II so I exchanged it. The mishaps we have can be instructive to others. Case in point. Tim I owe you one.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

RRRavelo said:


> I would pull the frogs and gut it. I normally try to talk dart frog keepers from having an inhabited water feature for a variety of reasons but if the fish are only lasting a few days the toxicity of the water must be pretty high and will affect your frogs before long...
> GL with the redo.


 The silver lining here is that since this was my first vivarium build I learned a LOT in building it. In hindsight, I would have done it very differently.

I think my downfall is that I can't positively identify the problem. It COULD BE:
ge silicone II
Lowes river rock
small amount of orchid fertilizer on the background getting into the water
bad fish
bacteria infestation
non-cycled water
etc.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

RRRavelo said:


> Right after writing the above I double checked a tube of brown GE silicone I was about to start a project with. It turned out to be Silicone II so I exchanged it. The mishaps we have can be instructive to others. Case in point. Tim I owe you one.


Ya brown GE Silicone I doesn't exist....only white, clear and black (black is rarely in stores).


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

One question, one comment:

1) May I ask, for a tank this size, why not use good old aquarium silicone? Safe, and sets faster (but wait at least 48 hours for amphibians and fish.)

2) For tanks with animals, many of us only use Dynagro (or Dynabloom)-period. Zoos use it, it is animal safe (and because it is ammonia based it is good for epiphytes). 

Hope this helps.


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## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> Ya brown GE Silicone I doesn't exist....only white, clear and black (black is rarely in stores).


This is brown to my eyes.
GE Silicone I All-Purpose Caulk, Bronze, 10.1-oz.: Model# GE412A | True Value


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I've always read that to be completely sure you should only use aquarium silicone.

The 2 brands I've used are:

ASI Aquarium Sealant

Aquarium Silicone Sealant - American Sealants, Inc.

GE 1200 Series

GE 1200 Series Construction Silicone Sealant - Clear: Thread Sealants: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


GE Silicone I is not advertised as Aquarium Sealant...

I can never find either product in a store and have to order it but I'd rather just wait for it to show up then to waste a bunch of cash and my time having to tear something down and do it again.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Just realized that the link I posted is for clear but they def sell the black version... No brown.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

You wrote that it could be non cycled water... You mentioned earlier that you tested the water and the ammonia levels were normal?

If non-cycled water is a possibility then that is probably the cause.



FrogTim said:


> The silver lining here is that since this was my first vivarium build I learned a LOT in building it. In hindsight, I would have done it very differently.
> 
> I think my downfall is that I can't positively identify the problem. It COULD BE:
> ge silicone II
> ...


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

cam1941 said:


> I've always read that to be completely sure you should only use aquarium silicone.
> 
> The 2 brands I've used are:
> 
> ...


Interesting, never saw the bronze before. That should work great.

Even though GE I isn't advertised as aquarium safe PLENTY of people have poured through the MSDS on it and aquarium safe stuff to compare and it's basically the exact same stuff, just cheaper. Once cured it is basically just pure inert silicone.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I've certainly heard that 100% silicone is safe but then these debates come up every so often as to what is actually 100% silicone. If it says aquarium safe then you know your good, no debate there. Personal preference I guess...

ASI is the same price and sometimes cheaper than more common in store brands. 



Rushthezeppelin said:


> Interesting, never saw the bronze before. That should work great.
> 
> Even though GE I isn't advertised as aquarium safe PLENTY of people have poured through the MSDS on it and aquarium safe stuff to compare and it's basically the exact same stuff, just cheaper. Once cured it is basically just pure inert silicone.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

cam1941 said:


> I've certainly heard that 100% silicone is safe but then these debates come up every so often as to what is actually 100% silicone. If it says aquarium safe then you know your good, no debate there. Personal preference I guess...
> 
> ASI is the same price and sometimes cheaper than more common in store brands.


There's no guessing. MSDS shows all, as legally required.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

And yet this topic continues to come up every so often... You sound like you've read it, have you? I couldn't be bothered honestly that's why I just use Aquarium safe. Like I've said personal preference.

If you have, I'd be curious to know which brands are safe? There must be others. Someone should make a list and have it stickied.



Rushthezeppelin said:


> There's no guessing. MSDS shows all, as legally required.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Groundhog said:


> One question, one comment:
> 
> 1) May I ask, for a tank this size, why not use good old aquarium silicone? Safe, and sets faster (but wait at least 48 hours for amphibians and fish.)
> 
> ...


I used aquarium silicone to adhere the acrylic panels to each other and the glass of the vivarium. I used the GE silicone II brown to cover the exposed acrylic for visual purposes and added seal.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

cam1941 said:


> You wrote that it could be non cycled water... You mentioned earlier that you tested the water and the ammonia levels were normal?
> 
> If non-cycled water is a possibility then that is probably the cause.


I had added Tetra Safestart Plus 2 weeks prior to introducing fish and immediately before. I was using test strips and going off the tests that Petsmart did of my water. Ammonia levels were near zero 24 hours after adding fish (Tetra Safestart can give you minor ammonia readings)


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

I didn't use aquarium silicone exclusively because it was $12 for a 3.4oz bottle and the GE silicone was ~$6 for a 10.2oz. I read several threads stating GE silicone was safe but didn't realize I purchased GE silicone II.

I found ASI online for $5 a tube and am using it on my replacement build.

I appreciate all the input from everyone. I just wish I could pin down the culprit for a peace of mind.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I think it was said years ago that GE didn't wanna officially say "aquarium safe" because they didn't do testing, and didn't want liability... Don't quote me on that though.


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## hughjass5976 (Mar 12, 2012)

I actually have a 65 that was done wholly with GE II, both black and brown, that has a water feature and a sump that has been set up for about two years now. It had 3 endler's live bearers, which quickly exploded to about 20, which I thinned out over time. It currently has two male Endler's, an oto cat, and 5 cherry shrimp that have been there about a year.

I'm not saying that GE II isn't the problem with your tank, but it definitely isn't a problem with mine, so it may be worth looking at some of your other parameters.


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## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

FrogTim said:


> I had added Tetra Safestart Plus 2 weeks prior to introducing fish and immediately before. I was using test strips and going off the tests that Petsmart did of my water. Ammonia levels were NEAR ZERO 24 hours after adding fish (Tetra Safestart can give you minor ammonia readings)


I've never used these quick start products but most are snake oil. I googled this one and it seems that there is something to it but it's not magic. You still need to allow the process to stabilize. I wouldn't add fish until the system has proven itself for a reasonable period of time. "Near zero" isn't good. Test strips are junk imo, get a good liquid test kit. The only thing floating bags will accomplish is to stabilize the temp if it's drastically different. The chemistry of the water in the bag, and the possible difference to that in your aquarium, is of far greater concern. You'll need a TDS meter or Kh/Gh test kit to measure the hardness of each. If there is significant difference drip acclimate them, or slowly add water from tank to fish until it's near equal to avoid osmotic shock. It's a terrible idea to dump water from a fish store bag, typically rife with pathogens, into your aquarium. Acclimate the fish in a separate container and net them out. At this point I'd recommend daily water changes while monitoring all of the above. It could be the silicone but there are many possibilities.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

hughjass5976 said:


> I actually have a 65 that was done wholly with GE II, both black and brown, that has a water feature and a sump that has been set up for about two years now. It had 3 endler's live bearers, which quickly exploded to about 20, which I thinned out over time. It currently has two male Endler's, an oto cat, and 5 cherry shrimp that have been there about a year.
> 
> I'm not saying that GE II isn't the problem with your tank, but it definitely isn't a problem with mine, so it may be worth looking at some of your other parameters.


I don't think I would be looking at the GE II as the source of death of the fish, either. The impacts of GE II would be longer term and chronic more than acute and maybe especially associated with breeding. There seems to be quite a bit of debate about GE II on this board, though, from my standpoint, the only thing to debate is how mobile the toxins are once cured. The MSDS is clear that there are organotins in GE Silicone II. I have to admit, though, that lots of people have used GE II for years without any obvious impacts. 

As stated in other threads, for future reference, there are other non-organotin options for black or brown silicone. I would suggest using one of those next time, when you have enough lead time to order them online. I, personally, don't feel the need to spend the extra on the products marked "aquarium safe." I suspect that these are just rebranded versions of the same silicone that can be had cheaper under other brand names. It's the organotins used in the cure process that you should be looking for in the MSDS.

Anyway, I think others that have said look elsewhere for your difficulties with fish loss might be correct. It would only take one bad test (none of your test kits are expired, are they?) to completely send you in the wrong direction for figuring out the real problem.

Finally, I agree with RRRavelo that I see way, way too many threads where beginners insist on having a water feature in their first dart tanks. I know that a lot of us start out in fish and want to hybridize into the dart frog world, taking with us what we know the best. However, you have enough to learn with just the frogs and a viv, at first. The added complexity of a water feature, with fish no less, just makes it harder on the keeper. I can't tell you how many times I have seen people get into the hobby, set up a tank with a water feature as their first viv, and never set up a tank with a water feature again. It is just a pain to get it right. It can be done, but it's super hard for your first build. Tim, I am not trying to single you out. I am just hoping that others that are considering a water feature for their first build might be able to avoid some heartache by reading this thread.

I do wish you every bit of success as you work out what's going on in your tank.

Mark


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks guys. I agree silicone II isn't the 'smoking gun'. It could be a multitude of things.

I did drip acclimate my fish for about an hour adding 1/ 4 cup tank water every 5 to 10min.

I don't think having a water feature is the issue. It was having a water feature as ambitious as mine with living fish. I think my replacement tank will have a drip wall or something without a standing body of water.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Ya I'll admit I was probably too quick to jump on the Silicone II....very true that it would cause more long term detriment rather than immediate effects (unless the concentrations of fungicide were through the roof which seems doubtful). I think the suggestion to get an accurate test kit and not trust the schmucks at Petsmart or the cheap test kits. Yes I know there are good knowledgeable people at some chain stores, but it's best to have the piece of mind of doing it yourself after plenty of research and knowing you are right.

@Encyclia Just curious where you can find info on how mobile those toxins are? Not that it matters much more than satisfying my curiosity since I use drylok for backgrounds and not silicone. I only ever need the clear stuff so I'm fine sticking with Silicone I.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> @Encyclia Just curious where you can find info on how mobile those toxins are? Not that it matters much more than satisfying my curiosity since I use drylok for backgrounds and not silicone. I only ever need the clear stuff so I'm fine sticking with Silicone I.


I am not sure anyone knows, Rush. Ed said the literature wasn't clear. Here is what I think about the subject (and people have said I worry about this stuff too much) - Organotins are bad. They have impacts on breeding and development of offspring. Some silicones have organotins that are used as part of the curing process. They may also have anti-microbial properties but they are really in there to help with curing. Some silicones don't have organotins. Once cured, it is not known whether these organotins can get out of the cured silicone. For me, the unknown is enough for me to avoid silicones that have organotins in them. There are other options available. Why not use them? GE Silicone II is one of the most commonly available black and brown colored silicones (Lowe's and Home Depot carry them) so a lot of people use those. There are other options available but most require an online order, and, therefore, planning ahead. In my town, the only local option for non-organotin black or brown silicone is Ace Hardware. I have also bought C.R. Lawrence online and I have read on Dendroboard that Silicone Depot carries a non-organotin version. It may not be a big deal or it might be. With a little planning ahead, you don't have to guess whether or not the material is safe for your frogs. You can decide whether this is worrying too much or not. As I said before, there are lots and lots of people that say that they have used GE Silicone II for years without any issues. I choose not to take the chance.

Mark


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> I am not sure anyone knows, Rush. Ed said the literature wasn't clear. Here is what I think about the subject (and people have said I worry about this stuff too much) - Organotins are bad. They have impacts on breeding and development of offspring. Some silicones have organotins that are used as part of the curing process. They may also have anti-microbial properties but they are really in there to help with curing. Some silicones don't have organotins. Once cured, it is not known whether these organotins can get out of the cured silicone. For me, the unknown is enough for me to avoid silicones that have organotins in them. There are other options available. Why not use them? GE Silicone II is one of the most commonly available black and brown colored silicones (Lowe's and Home Depot carry them) so a lot of people use those. There are other options available but most require an online order, and, therefore, planning ahead. In my town, the only local option for non-organotin black or brown silicone is Ace Hardware. I have also bought C.R. Lawrence online and I have read on Dendroboard that Silicone Depot carries a non-organotin version. It may not be a big deal or it might be. With a little planning ahead, you don't have to guess whether or not the material is safe for your frogs. You can decide whether this is worrying too much or not. As I said before, there are lots and lots of people that say that they have used GE Silicone II for years without any issues. I choose not to take the chance.
> 
> Mark


Curious what brands in Ace don't contain organotins? I've got one of those across the street from my apartment.

Also you spurred me to actually lookup how in the hell someone would test for them. First of all it seems like we would be looking for di-organotins (used in curing) and tri-organotins (probably what any fungicide would be). Here's the testing procedure though:



> ALS Environmental has considerable experience analyzing water, porewater, soil, sediment and tissue samples for low level organotins using solvent extraction, derivatization and a gas chromatography flame photometric detector (GC/FPD), consistent with C.A.Krone, et al. and M.O. Stallard, et al.


Not many of us have access to a gas chromatography flame photometric detector sadly  Looks like the cheapest used one I can find is a hefty 2 grand  Maybe I should start a go-fund me to get one and settle this question once and for all (can also be useful for analyzing the nutritional content of some foods too possibly so I'm sure I'd put it to good use afterwards). Something tells me it wouldn't get any pledges though


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I believe it's this stuff, but I could be wrong:

Ace® 50 Year 100% Silicone Sealant in Black - 12 Pack - Pure Silicone Caulk - Ace Hardware

You may not need 10 of them, though...

You are on your own for the testing, though. I will just avoid the organotins 

Mark


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

FrogTim said:


> I have not seen this product. Do you have a link?



http://m.drsfostersmith.com/product...R2Sb1fNiYZKyF8H7Plp-akmm0kqxcDrCd0aAijw8P8HAQ

This stuff will save lots of things but do not run it constantly as it will destroy you bacteria cultures by absorbing all of the ammonia and nitrites. We used it a lot to remove copper from systems after treating for ich outbreaks so we weren't layering treatments. It is a great product that has given me a lot of utility in both fresh and saltwater applications. 


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

kblack3 said:


> Pond Water Quality: Poly Filters Pond Filter Media
> 
> This stuff will save lots of things but do not run it constantly as it will destroy you bacteria cultures by absorbing all of the ammonia and nitrites. We used it a lot to remove copper from systems after treating for ich outbreaks so we weren't layering treatments. It is a great product that has given me a lot of utility in both fresh and saltwater applications.
> 
> ...


Wow that stuff seems almost too good to be true (as you said though there is too much of a good thing with this stuff) if it wasn't for the fact that they are so easily testable so obviously would be out of business quick in the aquarium industry. Thanks for linking that.


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> Wow that stuff seems almost too good to be true (as you said though there is too much of a good thing with this stuff) if it wasn't for the fact that they are so easily testable so obviously would be out of business quick in the aquarium industry. Thanks for linking that.



No prob whenever you have a water feature interacting with live animals in closed environments I recommend having some on hand. Especially with smaller water volumes as their chemical molarity can spike quite rapidly! How is it going in there BTW?


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Ohhh I'm not the OP. And yes I agree it gets tricky with such small water volumes. I really don't understand why more people don't at least use a sump with their water features if they keep fish in them. I'm personally making a water feature in my garter snake setup I'm working on and it will be hooked up to a riparium with pothos growing in it and clay substrate to keep TDS up. If I do it right it should only need top offs for water evap. There won't be any fish in it though, at least not for very long as they will be eaten


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Hey Guys.

I am still around. My frogs are happy but the water feature is not. The plants are doing fine but there is an algae outbreak. Trying to clean a water feature inside an aquarium without front-opening doors is a pain in the donkey. 

Things I would do differently:

-Use a false bottom instead of trying to section off a specified water area. The greater water volume will help with wild swings like I had.

-Have a tank with front opening doors for easy water feature access.

-Make sure water section is planted, cycled and stocked BEFORE adding frogs. Trying to do this with frogs in the enclosure is no fun.

-Run a canister filter or sump with greater water volume so you're not topping off every other day.

Live and learn.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

All said and done I am disappointed in myself for poor planning. Trying to cram 4 juvenile auratus and a ~4gal water feature inside a 29gallon aquarium... I feel bad for killing fish and snails while crowding my poor frogs.

I didn't realize I would have to take care of a vivarium AND an aquarium inside of it. Vivarium + aquarium = ? DOH!

Moving forward I got an excellent deal on a 24x18x24 exo and have no plans for a water feature. I was considering a drip wall but found a $40 monsoon system on craigslist which I promptly acquired. In a few weeks my frogs will have a new home!


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Also if you do a sump give yourself two drains, a water level drain to maintain constant water level (that can't go higher than your false bottom) and a bottom drain so that you can drain the whole thing if need be, put a ball valve on this one.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

I know that the nitrogen cycle in a bottle was talked about in this thread, so here is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPxExG-FbvI

Food for thought.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Are the bacteria the same in saltwater as fresh water?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

FrogTim said:


> The silver lining here is that since this was my first vivarium build I learned a LOT in building it. In hindsight, I would have done it very differently.
> 
> I think my downfall is that I can't positively identify the problem. It COULD BE:
> ge silicone II
> ...


"small amount of orchid fertilizer on the background getting into the water"
I wouldn't be putting any chemical fertilizers in a vivarium with dart frogs


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> "small amount of orchid fertilizer on the background getting into the water"
> I wouldn't be putting any chemical fertilizers in a vivarium with dart frogs


I don't think he did that directly. I think he put orchids in that had previously been fertilized at some point. Still not a good idea to do for sure.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

I used orchid planting mix for the background. Only after I had siliconed it did I realize there were fertilizers.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

FrogTim said:


> I used orchid planting mix for the background. Only after I had siliconed it did I realize there were fertilizers.


Then you should have never added wildlife once you noticed. Darts are very sensitive and even the slightest amount of chemicals can kill them and it might have killed the fish Idk.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Then you should have never added wildlife once you noticed. Darts are very sensitive and even the slightest amount of chemicals can kill them and it might have killed the fish Idk.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


Looking back I agree 100%. I was naive to think the simply washing off the background would clean off everything.

My new tank is already under construction.

Update. I had a buddy of mine who is a reefer (reef tank enthusiast) bring his test kits. Ammonia tested high, PH was low, and O2 levels were low. He did other tests like water hardness, nitrate and nitrite levels too. And now there is algae covering everything.

No future water features planned.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Hmmm if ammonia is high and nitrates and nitrites are low, it sounds like your water is not cycled properly to get nitrifying bacteria.


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## heygang911 (Jan 17, 2016)

I had the same problem years ago. You need to do a water change. A big water change. Think about it. All of your frog waste is going into the water. Which is making the water toxic and really high on ammonia from their urine. Unless you are going to have a major filter for such small amount of water it really isn't a good idea in my opinion to have fish in the water at all. That's why your snail wouldn't come out of its shell because your water is acidic and if it was killing off your moss ball I imagine it was pretty bad. I lost an albino clawed frog and many mollies. I am thinking about setting up a water feature too and I think after thinking about what you just went thru I may not have one after all. They are pretty but they are a pain..


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

heygang911 said:


> I had the same problem years ago. You need to do a water change. A big water change. Think about it. All of your frog waste is going into the water. Which is making the water toxic and really high on ammonia from their urine. Unless you are going to have a major filter for such small amount of water it really isn't a good idea in my opinion to have fish in the water at all. That's why your snail wouldn't come out of its shell because your water is acidic and if it was killing off your moss ball I imagine it was pretty bad. I lost an albino clawed frog and many mollies. I am thinking about setting up a water feature too and I think after thinking about what you just went thru I may not have one after all. They are pretty but they are a pain..


Thanks for the advice but the problem turned out to be the nitrogen/ammonia cycle. The water feature had it's own filter and was not connected to the false bottom so it wasn't in contact with substrate at all.

Regardless, 4gallons was too small and topoffs were a pain. Eventually the silicone failed and I scrapped this entire tank.


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