# luec emergency



## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

HI ,this is my first post here.I have a 4 luecs in a 30x18x18 tank with a water fall supplied by a sump, coco bedding for the land and calcium sand for the water area. I went to feed my lucs and the oldest which i have had for a year and a half was no missing from the group.I found her under a small plant in the corner not moving at all. she's still alive but I dont know whats wrong.she is lying down with his head low and I'm scared I'm gonna lose her.My temperture is around 80 these past few days.Could this be why?humidity is not a problem,as its around 80 plus.She looks fattter that before but I've been feeding them more often than usual (every day now that my fly cultures are stable.).I could really use some help here! I never lost a frog before.


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

froggerboy said:


> HI ,this is my first post here.I have a 4 luecs in a 30x18x18 tank with a water fall supplied by a sump, coco bedding for the land and calcium sand for the water area. I went to feed my lucs and the oldest which i have had for a year and a half was no missing from the group.I found her under a small plant in the corner not moving at all. she's still alive but I dont know whats wrong.she is lying down with his head low and I'm scared I'm gonna lose her.My temperture is around 80 these past few days.Could this be why?humidity is not a problem,as its around 80 plus.She looks fattter that before but I've been feeding them more often than usual (every day now that my fly cultures are stable.).I could really use some help here! I never lost a frog before.


The calcium sand could be the reason, when she was eating she could have consumed some of it and thus making her ill or possibly dying, if im wrong about this someone please correct me.
Im sorry to hear about this though.

Ramsey


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

The first thing I would do is remove the frog from the enclosure and place it in a smaller container lined with wet paper towels of sphagnum moss so you can more closely observe her. Move her to a cooler area if possible (low to mid 70's being optimal) - a basement perhaps?

If you have access to amphibian ringer's solution - then soak her in that. If not, then you can also soak her in unflavored pedialyte (you can find this in the baby section of most any supermarket).

When you say that she is bigger - how much bigger? It is possible she has just put on weight due to the increased feeding, she could be carrying eggs, or she may be showing signs of bloat - which is a common symptom in sick frogs and can be do to a number of things.

If possible, a picture would also be helpful.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

> The calcium sand could be the reason, when she was eating she could have consumed some of it and thus making her ill or possibly dying, if im wrong about this someone please correct me.


There is an offchance that the calcium sand could have caused an impaction - but he mentioned it was used in the water area - as what I am assuming the bottom of the pond. So it would be more difficult for ingestion of a significant amount.


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

rozdaboff said:


> The calcium sand could be the reason, when she was eating she could have consumed some of it and thus making her ill or possibly dying, if im wrong about this someone please correct me.


There is an offchance that the calcium sand could have caused an impaction - but he mentioned it was used in the water area - as what I am assuming the bottom of the pond. So it would be more difficult for ingestion of a significant amount.[/quote]

Thats true but I will see my darts go after ff in the water and gobble them up, but I think your right it is probably an offchance that it did happen. Moving the female to a different container would be a good idea. Hopefully she gets better.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I'm trying to find a cooler spot to put her in, but as for the basement, I live in a basement apartment. Is ice an option if i keep it at a distance?

She is not much larger than before so I assume its from the exrta feeding. As for the ringer solution,I dont think I can find that at petsmart. I do have a reptile electrolyte additive that I use for my tokays.Would this work the same or is pedialyte a better choice?

I'm also not very familiar with what bloat is.The only emergency I've had was when one of the frogs escaped and i just soaked it near the waterfall for a couple hours.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

As for the calcium sand I thought that it was designed to be digestable and not impact reptiles?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

froggerboy said:


> She is not much larger than before so I assume its from the exrta feeding. As for the ringer solution,I dont think I can find that at petsmart. I do have a reptile electrolyte additive that I use for my tokays.Would this work the same or is pedialyte a better choice?


No, you won't find amphibian ringer's at Petsmart. Only specialized vets carry it, or you can make your own with the proper ingredients and have access to an autoclave for sterilization - so it is not readily accessible to everyone - but I thought I would ask.

Get some pedialyte and soak her in that. The boost of glucose may do her some good.



> I'm also not very familiar with what bloat is.The only emergency I've had was when one of the frogs escaped and i just soaked it near the waterfall for a couple hours.


Bloat is the retention/accumulation of subcutaneous fluid causing the frog to appear swollen. It can be brought on by a number of things, but two of the most common are bacterial infection or kidney failure due to high temperatures.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

froggerboy said:


> As for the calcium sand I thought that it was designed to be digestable and not impact reptiles?


It is to a degree. It has smooth edges which is supposed to make it less likely to cause an impaction - but I think this statement is more applicable to larger herps, such as snakes and bearded dragons, that are known to have problems on traditional sand substrate. Given the smaller size of the frog's digestive system, I wouldn't be sold as easily on its safety.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Considering that she has her head down at all times ,how deep should I soak her in the pedialyte? She's only moving a small bit when I picked her up.She slid of my finger into the small palstic container and laid on her back with moving.I dont like were this is heading.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

If she is not moving much, then get a container and and a (clean!) soda cap. Place her in the larger container, and place her head on the soda cap. Then add the pedialyte to a level that will submerge approximately half of her body, but keeping her head above the water line. Keep a close eye on her. Let her soak for an hour or two, and then put her back in the quarantine container.

This will help give her an immediate boost, but will not solve the underlying problem. This is to just and try to get her out of the woods.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I just dont see how mine could eat the sand. the pool is an inch deep and the flies float on the top.But if it is a risk what shoud i use as an underwater substate that is sutable for plants.I've tried gravel before but my crypts never root well in them and die.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

rozdaboff said:


> If she is not moving much, then get a container and and a (clean!) soda cap. Place her in the larger container, and place her head on the soda cap. Then add the pedialyte to a level that will submerge approximately half of her body, but keeping her head above the water line. Keep a close eye on her. Let her soak for an hour or two, and then put her back in the quarantine container.
> 
> This will help give her an immediate boost, but will not solve the underlying problem. This is to just and try to get her out of the woods.


I'm soaking her right now,so what would be my next step to finding out whats wrong.If she is was over heated would a day of isolation bring her back to normal or is there other things that I need to prepare for.I live in a small podunk town so chances of finding a vet to tend to her is unlikely.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

froggerboy said:


> I just dont see how mine could eat the sand. the pool is an inch deep and the flies float on the top.But if it is a risk what shoud i use as an underwater substate that is sutable for plants.I've tried gravel before but my crypts never root well in them and die.


I personally don't think the sand should be high on your list of concerns.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

froggerboy said:


> I'm soaking her right now,so what would be my next step to finding out whats wrong.If she is was over heated would a day of isolation bring her back to normal or is there other things that I need to prepare for.I live in a small podunk town so chances of finding a vet to tend to her is unlikely.


First, see how she does with the soaking. I hate to be a pessimist, but the current state as you explain it seems grave. Soak her tonight, and then let her be. Tomorrow, check her progress. If she seems better - then try another soak tomorrow AM and offer her a couple of flies. Her underlying problem could be any number of things - parasite, bacterial infection, sequelae due to the heat... Those will all need to be addressed. But you first need to stabilize her.

Do you have a temperature in the tank? Does it record max highs and lows? Temperature would be the first thing to check.

Also, watch the others for similar signs.

I should be able to check the board somewhat regularly, and there are others here that can help - but you are welcome to email me (rozdaboff at aol) if you have any more direct questions.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

the high temperture in my tank was 85 and the low was 59.If it was heat then why are the others doing fine?She was the oldest and appeared the strongest.She doesn't move anymore and I think its over but I'm letting her soak for a little more.I appreiciate all the help.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

If she doesn't make it, I am truly sorry. You did what you could.

It may not have been caused by the temperature at all, or it could have been that the temperature exacerbated an underlying problem. Was the 85 reading outside the tank, or within? While it isn't optimal, I have had temps hit that level for short periods of time (1 day). But if that temp was maintained over the course of several days, it could be problematic.

Still holding out hope though...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "have access to an autoclave for sterilization - so it is not readily accessible to everyone - but " endsnip

As it is not being admistered intravenously or injected into the body there is no need to autoclave the amphibian ringers. It is used as a bath. I have no idea where the idea that it had to be autoclaved originated. 
As for how to make it here is the recipe http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml

Ed


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Ed,
What is the shelf life of this solution?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Ed said:


> snip "have access to an autoclave for sterilization - so it is not readily accessible to everyone - but " endsnip
> 
> As it is not being admistered intravenously or injected into the body there is no need to autoclave the amphibian ringers. It is used as a bath. I have no idea where the idea that it had to be autoclaved originated.
> As for how to make it here is the recipe http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml
> ...


I didn't intend to mean that it was necessary to autoclave it. Sorry if I misled anyone. Personally, while it is just a bath - I still filter/autoclave it for safety's sake.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Its late here and she's still ticking and moved a little we I check on her.I 'm holding on the hope that she might make it. Is there any reason why I wouldn't soak her all night or longer than a couple hours?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hi Steve,

From when I worked with Dr. Kevin Wright, he indicated that as long as it is being used as a bath and is kept in a dark location to prevent algae growth, it has an indefinite shelf life. We make up 5 gallons at a time and check for turbity before shaking it up to redissolve anything that has settled out. If it is turbid then we discard and make a fresh batch. 

Its not like the surface of a frog or other amphibian is sterile.....
Filtering it immediately before use is okay but I would not filter the solution before then as this could reduce the concentration of some of the salt in solution. 

If you are concerned with the shelf life you can premeasure up the salts into packets made for 1 liter and store them so you can make the solution as needed. 

I have maintained amphibians in amphibian ringers for more than 2 weeks at a time. I just change the solution daily. I'm not sure that I would maintain a frog in pedialyte for more than a couple of hours at a time due to the difference in dissolved solutes which places the frog under osmotic stress (covered in a different thread). 

Ed


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

WOW! she was alive when I woke up today so I found a vet that had ringer solution and put her in it to soak.The vet didn't know anything about amphibians and said I should inject the solution with a syringe.So I'm not taking it in to be checked out! I'm not sure as to whether or not I dilute the solution so I used a 10:1 water to ringer solution ratio to soak her. Is this correct or not? 
Its lunch time for me here and she has her head back up and seems responsive but definitely not active.I gave here a few flies and they just crawled on her so I removed all but one thinking it might stress her out. It will be three days since I saw her eat. What steps should I take to get her back to eating?
This is truely amazing that she is still alive.Last night she could barely twitch to move her arms!I still would like some advice as to what i should do from here on out. Thank you!


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

The vet probably gave you Lactated Ringer's solution (LRS), not amphibian ringer's. I don't have access to my Amphibian medicine text at the moment - but I am not sure exactly how different the two are regarding their osmotic concentrations. Maybe Ed can chime in here.

Diluting the LRS 1:10 and soaking in that won't be much different than soaking in plain water. I don't want to tell you to go ahead and soak in full strength LRS though without verifying the osmotic differences.

For the time being, I would continue with the Pedialyte until it can be sorted out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Lactated ringers has a rating of about 289 mOsm/kg as opposed to amphibian ringers having a rating of 229 mOsm/kg. This would indicate that it is hypertonic to the amphibian which can cause some stress. 

it also has more potassium chloride and calcium chloride per liter. 

As rozdaboff indicated, diluting it pretty much eliminates any potential benefit. 

Ed


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

I'll add that lactated ringer's can be used in a pinch. While not as ideal as Amphibian ringers, you have to work with what you have. Diluting it will eliminate the benefits, so you it as a direct bath, or you can use just a slight dilution.
Pedialyte is a good standby, again, if it's all you have. I sometimes think the glucose in the pedialyte can help if it's an acute issus, or if poor nutrition is involved.

Speaking of which: What are you feeding you frogs and how often? Are you dusting your food and if so with what? Be specific.

Back to what might be wrong, I would like to add hypocalcemia as another possible cause. 
Best of luck


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I feed my frogs at least every other day with fruit flies.I dust probaby every three out of four times.I occasionally feed them flour beetle grubs(seeing as how they don't like the beetles themselves). I was planning to dump a culture of springtails in when I get back from the NW frogfest.

I do water changes of the sump about once a week.I dont use RO water but could get acces to it.I seem to be doing fine with treated tap water.

The only thing I tend to neglect is the collecting of frog poop.I heavily planted my vivarium and didn't figure it to be overly necassary seeing as how the plants us it.That and the fact that I change the water. Every six months or so I remove a large portion of the used coco fiber and replace it with fresh coco.I read that coco fiber doesn't last long in moist conditions but is better than soil.

My temperture in the tank is a max. 80, and min. of 70 degrees right now. Thats internal temperture too. During the winter, which is like 8 months out of the year here,is arounnd 55 to 70. I dont use heat lamps but I do use a water heater during the winter.

I hope this helps paint a good picture of how i keep my tank.I would like to know whats going on,thank for the input.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I forgot to say I use herptivite and calcium with d3 from Rep-Cal.I do a fifty-fifty blend of each.


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

It sounds like you're taking good care of your frogs. The supplements appear adequate. Are they expired? 
The temperatures are not too bad for the summer months. I'll admit that my tanks get to similar temperatures as well, and I haven't had any problems. If no other frogs appear affected and the frog has not returned to normal, I think we can rule out temps. 
Any new additions? New frogs or plants? Have you recently cleaned out your tank? I have seen septic deaths from over zealous tank cleaning and water changes (removes good, nitrogen fixing bacteria and biofilters, waste products spike,etc...)
Frog poop shouldn't be a problem unless its excessive. I think next on my list is parasites, If you can, get a fecal from the sick frog. However, fresh feces from the other frogs might do as they are probaly infected if this is a parasitic problem.
Any skin discoloration or lesions? Any bloating? How's the frog?


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I don't know if my supplements are expired. I 've had them for about a year and a half.I will trie to get a fecal test on the poo though.The other frogs are doing there usually routine of climbing every where they can patroling the area and are always active.The sick one is responsive but doesn't seem active enough yet.I don't know if I should reintroduce her. She is twice the size of the others and I 've had her the longest.
The others are much younger and I've never seen fighting amongst them.The only abnormal thing about her is the excessively high and pointy hip bones or what ever they are.She has always been on the skinny side. She also has green feet.Wish I could put a picture up but I don't know how.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The supplements are expired. The current recommendation is to discard and replace within six months of opening the containers. 

Ed


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

She seems to be back to normal today so put her back in the vivarium and feed them all.She is eating agian too.I'll check back in when I get the fecal samples checked out.Is there anything else that I might want to look at? 
I haven't added anything new to the tank and I can imgagine that I'm over cleaning.I have three inches of gravel under the sand and a false bottom towards the back to prevent the coco from getting to wet.I figure the gravel carries all of the bacteria kind of like a my fish tank.All of the water flows through it to a drianage hole drilled in the back.Theoretically this should be an excellent bio filter so I minimize my cleaning to water changes once a week or so and preventing the coco from turning rancid(which my not be necessary due to the heavy planting).

Any idea where I can get amphibian ringer solution online?

I really apreciate all the help! My frog is still alive becuase of it.Thank you.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Ed said:


> The supplements are expired. The current recommendation is to discard and replace within six months of opening the containers.
> 
> Ed


New supplements have been purchased,thanks.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

froggerboy said:


> Any idea where I can get amphibian ringer solution online?


A google search came up with this:

http://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/pro ... /salt.aspx

It is halfway down the page. I checked out the site, and it doesn't appear that you have to be associated with a university or industry office to order.

$14 per/500ml is a bit expensive, but if you can't make your own - it would be good to have on hand.


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

That's a helpful fluid link. 
Glad to hear she's back to her normal self. If you want to err on the cautous side, I'd keep her isolated a little longer. It would give you the opportunity to observe her, she won't have the food competition, and she's still separated in case she takes a turn for the worse.
I think you're bio filter still in tact as long as you left the gravel alone. The incidences I saw involved near complete gravel changing or full cleaning.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

just an undate on the frog, she is moving around better and attempt s to climb but usually appears weak still. This biggest observation seems to be that she misses her food with her tongue. She strikes at the flies but she doesn't gooble them up up. It takes her several attempts to get one in her mouth. Her vision seems to be bad compared to the others as well. Is this a sign of anything?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

the symptoms are consistant with hypovitaminosis of A. However I am sure a vet maybe able to give you some other possibilities. 

I am aware of at least one vet recommending purchasing vitamin capsules (has to be retinol) and placing one drop/month on the back of the frog. Now I have no clue as to whether this would supply sufficient retinol to reverse hypovitaminosis of A as I do not know how much would be absorbed through the skin. 

Ed


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

She's back in pedialyte agian.I checked on her this morning and she seemed fine.She was higher than usual but nothing abnormal otherwise.When I checked an hour later she was lying on her stomach agian.
Ed I'm not quite sure I understand what hypovitaminosis is.Please eloborate.It sounds like too much vitamin A.Should I start to worry about my other frogs?
My next question would be where do I get the vitamin capsules and how do I administer them?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

_*Hypo*_vitaminosis is not enough vitamins. Too much vitamins would be _*hyper*_vitaminosis.

This seems like the likely source of the problem to me as well, given the age of your supplements. 

I don't have any information or experience with the retinol capsules. The only thing I would advise would be caution with dosing. Vitamin A is fat soluble, and therefore any "overdose" will be stored in fat, and you may begin to see effects of hypervitaminosis. But as I don't have any idea on what the adequate dosing would be - you would be walking a fine line between beneficial and detrimental effects.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

The pedialyte bath rivived her agian.She has her head up anyways.I purchased new vitamins so I hope this takes care of the problem.I have decided to isolate her in a seperate tank. i will try to get her weight back up to a health size or maybe a little over.I figure it do this for about a month or two and reintroduce her.
I'm still trying to figure out why this hasn't happened to the other three.They are about half here age, so maybe thats a factor?


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Have any of you tried Dr. Frye?
I went to a local vet and they couldn't do anything for me.It seems that I know more than they do and thats not much.I'm trying to get a dewormer as a precautionary and maybe something to for parasites.I tried to get a fecal examination but they saided they had to send it to a lab and it was going to cost a pretty penny.I'd rather approach this by elimination process.I'm hoping that maybe some of Dr. Fryes supplies could help.

Taking her to the vet was a bad idea.It caused more stress and degraded her health severly.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Hers a pic of my poor luec.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

does herptivite supply vitamin A?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Herptevite supplies vitamin A as beta carotene not as retinol. Recent data has been showing that at least some anurans do not readily convert beta carotene to retinol. 

As for the recommendation with the retinol, I have not been told it directly but I believe it was recommended by Dr. Kevin Wright (Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry). 


Ed


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Is this something I can get at a health store of is it hard to find?

I'm willing to try it if you can give me guidelines. I know its touchy but I don't know what to do at this point. shes not eating and the visit to the vet has taken a great toll on her. 

Is there anything you can tell from the pictures as far as overall condition.
She has gotten very skinny in the past week.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Have you tried force feeding her with some Panacur dusted on the FF. No one has really talked about it, but this could be parasites.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Have you tried force feeding her with some Panacur dusted on the FF. No one has really talked about it, but this could be parasites."endsnip 

In theory this could be caused by a parasite or parasites but people have to remember that Panacure (Fenbendazole) is only effective against a few parasites that could be causing issues. In addition, if you are going to go the route of forcefeeding, why not use the correct dosage of a panacure suspension so the frog at least gets a theraputic dose instead of what could be an over or underdose of the medication. An overdose can kill the frog, an underdose will have either no effect on the parasite (assuming it is one affected by Fenbendazole and not say coccidia) or insufficient effect. If you are going to go this route, get the fecal test done. 

Approaching a theoretical parasite load through a shotgun process of elimination will cost you a lot more than the fecal would cost you to determine if there is an issue. 

Ed


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

There is no need to force feed right now.After a nights rest she is back to where she was before I brought her to the vet.She's eating so I give her fruit flies with the vitamins.She doesn't seem to have good vision still, eating those that pass in front of her but thats it.

After reading the poll that had parasites as a topic and with much thanks to Ed,I'm wary about giving her panacur without knowing that parasites are the problem(and like ed siad ones that can be treated by fenbendazole). I'm having a hard time getting a vet to do a fecal examination around here. Do fecal exams always cost a hundred plus?This is what I get for living in a very small town.
I'm still intersested about the vitamin a deficiency that you were talking about Ed.I haven't found anything that looks like I can dose out to the frog.Cod liver oil is the closest I get.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Thanks for setting me straight on the parasite issue Ed. I for one, am very grateful you are a part of this board. THANKS!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You really want a vitamin A capsul that doesn't contain anything other than retinol (like retinol palmatate). Cod liver oil is a problem as it also contains vitamin D which when used in conjunction with a dustable vitamin/mineral supplement runs the risk of causing hypervitaminosis of D... 

You need to shop around for vets willing to work with you on the fecal. I can get a fecal done on both of my dogs and my cat all at the same time for less than that price. 

Ed


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I check on her after being gone for a couple hours and her stomach is twice the size it usual is and shes lying on her stomach agian.What do I do?
now...








yesterday...









Is this a sign of bacteria infection?I feed her today,about five or so.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

She died.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Sorry.
Feel good in knowing that you did everything you could to try and find out what was wrong.


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## WarrenM (May 8, 2006)

I'm so sorry. I have been following the thread hoping your efforts would pay off. If it's any consulation, you gave it your best shot.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Get a necropsy. If the frog had something contagious you want to know.. 

Ed


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I'm going on vacation and I am low on funds so I decided to get a fecal done of the remianing three instead of a necropsy.I really appreciate all the help.Ed you should get a thread going that descibes common problems found in frog and what to do.I saw the first aid thread but it doesn't say what one should do when a frog grows ill.I think it would help all the not so knowledgable keepers like me.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

I like that idea. We could call it the Sicky Sticky!!!


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

Sorry to hear the news. My guess is that the bloat was caused by bacterial sepsis, which probably occured secondary to the originial problem. I think you're still left with an open diagnosis. The vitamin deficiency is possible, though I would expect some problems in the others. I will admit that I have seen nutritional deficiences hit cage mates more than a month apart. Parasites are always a possibility.
Regarding your questions about getting a fecal performed, my practice typically usually charges $18ish (for dogs and cats), and we do not require an exam beforehand. Getting it sent off may run $30ish. Most vets should be able to identify the basic families of parasites, and come up with some treatment plan. False negative are very possible given the small amount of stool. 
A pathology report would be great, but I have done several of my frogs with very little beneficial results, especially when bacterial sepsis is a contributing cause. I think it is probably better to spend that money on your other frogs.


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