# 20 Gallon High Build! Noob need help!



## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

I'm new to keeping amphibians and would like to get into the hobby. I have a 20 gallon high sitting around that I would like to turn into a poison dart vivarium with live plants. What other equipment will I need and how do I start this build? Also post pictures of similar sized builds for inspiration! I would like a water feature and will be keeping all live plants. Also suggestions on which darts to get would be amazing! Thanks in advance for any help!


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

New_b0401 said:


> I'm new to keeping amphibians and would like to get into the hobby. I have a 20 gallon high sitting around that I would like to turn into a poison dart vivarium with live plants. What other equipment will I need and how do I start this build? Also post pictures of similar sized builds for inspiration! I would like a water feature and will be keeping all live plants. Also suggestions on which darts to get would be amazing! Thanks in advance for any help!


Everyone wants a water feature in their 1st viv. Guess how many are happy that they put one in. Almost none especially in a viv that size. They cause many issues and unless you do tons of prep work the pumps fail and are a pain to fix.

For things needed we have auctions going on right now to help out a company many of us support. You can get great frogs at better deals. There are many plants being offered and I have also put in a new viv start up kit. It has everything but flies and leca in it.


Also Doug and Tom put in some great starter frog groups which at the deals being offered are insanely low cost for the numbers given.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/charity-auctions/


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## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

I'm in the same boat New. I've been reading for 2 months and just starting my first build. Start by reading through this.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...ular-helpful-beginner-discussion-threads.html
Then use the search function for specifics. I've found almost everything I've searched for, and then some. Good luck!


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Thanks for the advice! I will certainly be doing my research and looking into that link. Aldross I would love to purchase from the auction but I don't want to jump into this build before I know what I want and costs. I want to set everything right the first time. I will keep in mind the tip on a water feature maybe I will wait to add thay after I upgrade to a larger tank once I get the hang of everything


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

New_b0401 said:


> Thanks for the advice! I will certainly be doing my research and looking into that link. Aldross I would love to purchase from the auction but I don't want to jump into this build before I know what I want and costs. I want to set everything right the first time. I will keep in mind the tip on a water feature maybe I will wait to add thay after I upgrade to a larger tank once I get the hang of everything


Water features are cool but I think that is wise. Know what you want to build and how to build the simple then move to the pain in the ass setups.
Do you know if you want to set it up standard or vert? Both make good vivs but can change what you keep. 
You should check out
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-what-your-favorite-frog-your-collection.html
Lots of frogs with why we like them.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/3-members-frogs-vivariums.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/26599-what-have-you-got-foliage.html
Some good image threads for when you get tired of reading


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

New_b0401 said:


> Thanks for the advice! I will certainly be doing my research and looking into that link. Aldross I would love to purchase from the auction but I don't want to jump into this build before I know what I want and costs. I want to set everything right the first time. I will keep in mind the tip on a water feature maybe I will wait to add thay after I upgrade to a larger tank once I get the hang of everything


Great to see a new person with that kind of mentality and desire to plan things out! When you're ready... If you decide you want Azureus like I have in the auction I'll gladly cut you a deal and still donate the money too.


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Aldross said:


> Water features are cool but I think that is wise. Know what you want to build and how to build the simple then move to the pain in the ass setups.
> Do you know if you want to set it up standard or vert? Both make good vivs but can change what you keep.
> You should check out
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-what-your-favorite-frog-your-collection.html
> ...


What is the difference between a standard and a vert? Sorry super new to all the terms like I said I have A LOT of research to do before starting my first viv. I want to make sure my frogs are happy and healthy


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

carola1155 said:


> Great to see a new person with that kind of mentality and desire to plan things out! When you're ready... If you decide you want Azureus like I have in the auction I'll gladly cut you a deal and still donate the money too.


Thank you! I've kept fish and reptiles for a few years and it's easy to get burnt out and not nearly as fun when your project becomes stressful. I find it much easier and more enjoyable to do your research first


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Standard is as you see it on the self. Vertical is where you have it up on one end with a conversion kit


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Aldross said:


> Standard is as you see it on the self. Vertical is where you have it up on one end with a conversion kit


I plan to have it standard since it will fit that way on the metal shelf I have available above my 20 gallon long fish tank. Plus I believe the 20 gallon high would allow for enough vertical space (24 x 13 x 17) as a standard tank along with having some floor space.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

New_b0401 said:


> I plan to have it standard since it will fit that way on the metal shelf I have available above my 20 gallon long fish tank. Plus I believe the 20 gallon high would allow for enough vertical space (24 x 13 x 17) as a standard tank along with having some floor space.


The only thing I don't care for with standard is opening from the top. I still have 4 vivs like that and they get on my nerve when I have to work 1n them


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Aldross said:


> The only thing I don't care for with standard is opening from the top. I still have 4 vivs like that and they get on my nerve when I have to work 1n them


I have thought of that... but luckily I've been dealing with fish tanks for the last few years. Currently have the 20 gallon long, a 10, and a 55 all with live plants. So I've gotten use to working on tanks . Not that a exo-terra like setup wouldn't be convenient.


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

So I'm debating between using the cork bark paneling and the expandable foam... I am a pretty handy DIY person so the expandable foam seems like a fun choice and an easier way to get the background just how I want it with plenty of shelves for plants, etc. Has anyone tried the expandable foam method and what was your experience?


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Everyone had tried that method here. It is the most common


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

How about drift wood is there any rules one what kind it should be? I have left over from previous fish tanks do you think they would be safe to use for the viv? They are very nice pieces and I would love to utilize them! The large piece is mounted on a piece of slate. Of course I would soak them first to help rid them of any chemicals that I would have used in the fish tank. No medical chemicals were every used, but I did have live plants so I did add plant fertilizer to the tank weekly. Along of course with dechlorinater.

So I believe I've narrowed down my frog choice to either D. auratus 'El Cope' or a type of 'tinc' not sure what kind yet  I love all the different color verities that 'tincs' come in! Anyway so I know I should keep 2M:1F ratio for 'tincs', but it says I can keep D. auratus in a group how many should I keep in a 20 gallon high from what I've read I could keep 4 one to every 5 gallons correct? Or do auratus need more room? Also I would like to breed in the future... Any advice on if one of these are easier to breed then the other? One last question that may sound like a dumb one...  I just want to make sure I understand this correctly, so it is not a good idea to put different kinds of darts together say auratus 'El cope' and then a different kind of auratus because the could make a hybrid correct? So I could not keep two different pairs of auratus in this tank (saying that I could have 4 in this tank.) Or could I keep two separate pairs? 

Thanks in advance for any help and sorry if any of the questions seem dumb .


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## wikiwakawakawee (Jan 24, 2013)

New_b0401 said:


> So I'm debating between using the cork bark paneling and the expandable foam... I am a pretty handy DIY person so the expandable foam seems like a fun choice and an easier way to get the background just how I want it with plenty of shelves for plants, etc. Has anyone tried the expandable foam method and what was your experience?


Just make sure to carve the foam, or at the very least, get rid of the smoothness of it or your silicone wont stick so well onto it. I didn't do that with my first build and it look disastrous! Good luck!


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## wikiwakawakawee (Jan 24, 2013)

New_b0401 said:


> How about drift wood is there any rules one what kind it should be? I have left over from previous fish tanks do you think they would be safe to use for the viv? They are very nice pieces and I would love to utilize them! The large piece is mounted on a piece of slate. Of course I would soak them first to help rid them of any chemicals that I would have used in the fish tank. No medical chemicals were every used, but I did have live plants so I did add plant fertilizer to the tank weekly. Along of course with dechlorinater.
> 
> So I believe I've narrowed down my frog choice to either D. auratus 'El Cope' or a type of 'tinc' not sure what kind yet  I love all the different color verities that 'tincs' come in! Anyway so I know I should keep 2M:1F ratio for 'tincs', but it says I can keep D. auratus in a group how many should I keep in a 20 gallon high from what I've read I could keep 4 one to every 5 gallons correct? Or do auratus need more room? Also I would like to breed in the future... Any advice on if one of these are easier to breed then the other? One last question that may sound like a dumb one...  I just want to make sure I understand this correctly, so it is not a good idea to put different kinds of darts together say auratus 'El cope' and then a different kind of auratus because the could make a hybrid correct? So I could not keep two different pairs of auratus in this tank (saying that I could have 4 in this tank.) Or could I keep two separate pairs?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help and sorry if any of the questions seem dumb .


I would boil any wood you would be using from a fish tank.
Definitely don't mix different frogs together, its frowned upon in this hobby.
A general rule of thumb is 10 Gallons per frog, but i think that could vary depending on what type of frog you're wanting to put in.


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

I've read anywhere from 3-4 in a 20 gallon high, but I will be sure to double check when I find out exactly what frogs I decide on


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Alright so I've been doing some research and I have a question.. does my viv need a vent I've read some that say no but I see others that have them... I plan to mist by hand so the tank would be open at least once a day and then also for feedings and I've read that allows an air exchange? I will also have live plants that would help provide oxygen. If I do need one would a screen top with glass covering a good portion of it work out? 

I plan to do this build slow and right. Any advice on adding live food cultures to the substrate? Good for beginners or not? I will also order the plants and allow them to grow in some before adding any frogs. This will also allow me to get the culture established if I decide to go that route and to monitor temp and humidity before adding the frogs. 

Also if anyone has an favorite plants flower or just green that would stay fairly small to medium for a 20 gallon please list the name and a picture if you have one!


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes you should have a vent. Your plants will do better and your frogs will be able to thermoregulate better. Springtails and isopods are always a plus. A screen top may not work well for you usually the holes in screens are too large. You would be better served by making your own vent and using No see um mesh.


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Aldross said:


> Yes you should have a vent. Your plants will do better and your frogs will be able to thermoregulate better. Springtails and isopods are always a plus. A screen top may not work well for you usually the holes in screens are too large. You would be better served by making your own vent and using No see um mesh.


Would I vent in the top work though so I could just get the glass top cut? Also how big should the vent be?


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## Bighurt (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm on vivarium #14 not a one has a water feature, aside from mist heads.

I'm thinking of building one at some point that does...I promise.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

It depends. On my pumilio vivs the vent is larger than on my others since I mist them a lot more.
What do you plan on keeping


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Aldross said:


> It depends. On my pumilio vivs the vent is larger than on my others since I mist them a lot more.
> What do you plan on keeping


I plan on keeping beginner to intermediate plants. I've read up and it looks like orchids, bromalids, maybe some ferns seem to be most common? As for frogs I would like to either keep tincs or azuras sorry if any of the spelling is wrong


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

How strong is great stuff? I have a few pieces of slate rock I would like to use in the viv to make shelves on the wall do you think it would hold? They aren't very heavy I would just like to make sure so my background doesn't come tumbling down. Also is there any type of rock that isn't safe to use in a viv because if minerals that might be released? Thanks for all the help guys I'll post some pictures of the pieces I'm thinking about using in just a few! Pictures always make things more interesting to me  I'm trying to stay with as many natural products as possible, but I may end up using some non-natural as well just because I have a few pretty neat pieces


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Alright everyone here are some pictures of the items I currently have. All are natural products except for the hide away log.




There are only 2 pieces of driftwood the one mounted on slate and the other piece. I took a picture from all angles. I really love these pieces I think the have a lot of character! The non mounted piece has some really nice places for plants also! 


I thought about removing this piece from the slate and hanging it on the back sideways but it is too wide for the tank 











I was also thinking I could use the clay pot as either a hiding spot or a planter if i turned it upside down and hung it from the side? It has a hole in the bottom for drainage. Thoughts?




Anyone have an opinions on if these rocks are safe to use? I want to use them as shelves.


Was also thinking about using an amethyst in the viv for that unique factor and to add some awesome color! I have used them in my fish tanks any idea on if they are safe for a viv?


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

I also have one set up I'm thinking on. (please ignore the props used to hold everything in place  ) Please comment with ideas, criticisms, concerns  (The clay pot sitting on the corner shelf is being used to hold up the shelf above it I am not planning on keeping it there or keeping the huge orange cylinder under the corner shelf).

Not sure if I'm taking up to much floor space? How much do these little guys actually climb? So you think they will utilize the large corner shelf and mounted driftwood piece? Or is the driftwood just taking up space? I believe I will be able to attach a lot of plant to it along with some mosses! 





Full tank shot 


Here is a drawing (sorry it's pretty awful lol  ) so you can get a better idea on what i'm thinking about using in this set-up. Sorry I didn't draw the hide away log it wasn't turning out right.


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

I also already have my light it was used on one of my old [planted fish tanks it's 30" long, but I don't really want to buy a new one if this light will work for plants already. It is aqueon 30" dual light. It currently has an 18W colormax T5 120V and a 18W 6,700K T5 120V. I haven't looked much into lighting yet, so I will do some of my own research, but any opinions on if this light should work?

Does anyone have experience with Josh's Frogs? Good or bad? I was looking into purchasing his 20 gallon high substrate kit and I was wondering if it was any good here's a link 
http://www.joshsfrogs.com/dart-frog-tankless-kit-20-gallon-high-vertical.html

I'm also looking at what would be easiest to culture for food? What do you culture/feed? What do you use as a supplement for vitamins, calcium, and D3?


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## Itsalltender (Sep 6, 2014)

New_b0401 said:


> I also already have my light it was used on one of my old [planted fish tanks it's 30" long, but I don't really want to buy a new one if this light will work for plants already. It is aqueon 30" dual light. It currently has an 18W colormax T5 120V and a 18W 6,700K T5 120V. I haven't looked much into lighting yet, so I will do some of my own research, but any opinions on if this light should work?
> 
> Does anyone have experience with Josh's Frogs? Good or bad? I was looking into purchasing his 20 gallon high substrate kit and I was wondering if it was any good here's a link
> Dart Frog Tankless Kit (20 Gallon High Vertical) | Josh's Frogs
> ...


I use fish tank lights on my tanks and they work great. And Josh's Frogs is the best. I have something coming from them today. Fruit flies is what most of us feed and they are a lot easier the breeding pinhead crickets and don't smell like the crickets. In my opinion I would not put the fake log hide. I would just put a layer of leaf litter for them to hide in.


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## Itsalltender (Sep 6, 2014)

And also by the time you put 2 inches of leca and 2 inches of substrate (use ABG mix from Josh's Frogs) the log might be sticking out of the top. You could either take it out or burry it until it fits. If you have any further questions just send me a pm.


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Itsalltender said:


> I use fish tank lights on my tanks and they work great. And Josh's Frogs is the best. I have something coming from them today. Fruit flies is what most of us feed and they are a lot easier the breeding pinhead crickets and don't smell like the crickets. In my opinion I would not put the fake log hide. I would just put a layer of leaf litter for them to hide in.


Alright great! What do you think my lighting would be considered as far as low, medium, high is there a guide to figure it out? 

I was planning on fruit flies luckily as they seem to be most popular how about springtails or isopods culturing in the actual viv? Does that work out pretty well? My viv will probably be set up for a month or so before I introduce frogs just so I can make sure everything is consistent and my plants are doing well and established. 

I was hoping someone might mention that! I want to try and stay as natural as possible and I didn't like that it wasn't 

Thank you so much for your help!


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## Itsalltender (Sep 6, 2014)

New_b0401 said:


> Alright great! What do you think my lighting would be considered as far as low, medium, high is there a guide to figure it out?
> 
> I was planning on fruit flies luckily as they seem to be most popular how about springtails or isopods culturing in the actual viv? Does that work out pretty well? My viv will probably be set up for a month or so before I introduce frogs just so I can make sure everything is consistent and my plants are doing well and established.
> 
> ...


Responded to your PM.


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## alogan (Jan 7, 2013)

Love that driftwood piece! Did you find that in a lake? It looks like it would be awesome for mounting bromeliads.


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

alogan said:


> Love that driftwood piece! Did you find that in a lake? It looks like it would be awesome for mounting bromeliads.


No I actually bought it from Petco lol I couldn't resist  

Here's what I have picked out for plants. I know I won't have all of these in this tank, but I thought if I picked out what I liked maybe I could get some advice on if any of these are hard to grow along with some tips on what would look best for this setup and have some good contrast. I'm not sure how many plants I should have in this viv. in aquariums more is always better, but I'm not sure for darts. Any advice? I tried to pick plants with similar growing needs. I plan to have a low front corner in this tank with possibly some medium and larger river rocks to allow the water a low point so I will have both wet and damp to dry substrate areas for plants. All of these plants are found at Josh's Frogs and I have taken their advice as far as growing needs and size. I will also be using Josh's Frogs substrate mix (1-1.5" of false bottom, 1-2" of ABG mix, long fiber sphagnum moss, and live oak leaves). I will have a GS background so I can mount the bromelids. I don't plan on having a fan for air circulation unless needed.

Bromelids:
Neoregelia 'Mo Peppa Please'
Neoregelia punctatissimia 'Joao Marcio'
Neoregelia 'Pepper'

Background/Vines:
Philodendron cordatum
Tradescantia fluminensis 'Wandering Jew Tricolor'
Alocasia 'Tiny Dancers'
Pilea spruceana 'Friendship Plant'
Syngonium obtusifolia variegata
Calathea 'Velvet Touch'

Mid/Foreground:
Cryptanthus bivittatus 'Red Star'
Episcia cupreata 'Silver Skies'
Selaginella martinsii 'Jori'-Jori Spikemoss
Nephrolepis cordifolia 'Lemon Button Fern'
Macodes petola Jewel Orchid
Streptocarpella sp.
Columnea 'California Gold'-Goldfish Plant


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## New_b0401 (May 12, 2015)

Any advice on plants?


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