# Price observation



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

I have noticed in the classifieds somthing a bit unfair. When people seel a frog for lets say $100 i noticed the price jump 50-100 if it is sexed. I find it hard to believe that if i have a frog the moment i see him call his value shoots up. 

I personally have been looking for sexed pumilio but am pretty discoureged by some of the pricing i have seen. I dont mind paying the 100 since it is the going rate. But when i see sexed ones going for closer to 200 and above i am astonished.

Does everyone else find this a bit unfair/strange? Shouldnt a pair of frgos who go for 100 a piece cost around 200?


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

If someone has put the time/effort/money into a frog to get it to the point of being sexed, they have a right to charge more. Purchasing a sexed pair saves the buyer the time/money of having to buy a group of frogs and grow them up until they get the sex(es) they need.


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Not unfair or unusual at all. Basically it's the law of supply and demand. Many people don't like to buy unsexed young frogs because they are either shooting for a certain sex ratio or looking to supplement one sex with another.

Sexed frogs tend to be older frogs meaning they have been in the breeder's care for more time.

For pumilio, even if they are Farm Raised, the seller has to do a fair amount of work to sex them accurately, particularly to get male-female pairs. I know one seller who spent his entire weekend sexing a shipment of pumilio by painstakingly introducing frogs to one another, observing reactions, etc. It wasn't just a 'oh that frog just called' exercise.

Bill


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

MrGerbik said:


> I have noticed in the classifieds somthing a bit unfair. When people seel a frog for lets say $100 i noticed the price jump 50-100 if it is sexed. I find it hard to believe that if i have a frog the moment i see him call his value shoots up.
> 
> I personally have been looking for sexed pumilio but am pretty discoureged by some of the pricing i have seen. I dont mind paying the 100 since it is the going rate. But when i see sexed ones going for closer to 200 and above i am astonished.
> 
> Does everyone else find this a bit unfair/strange? Shouldnt a pair of frgos who go for 100 a piece cost around 200?


I disagree completely. The market dictates the fair value of the animal. If your looking for a sexed frog and don't like the price then buy the cheaper unsexed frog. But what is going to happen if the frog you just raised up turns out to be the wrong sex? You have a 50% chance of getting what you don't want. Gonna go buy another for another $100? Now your out $200 and could have got the sex you needed for $50 less and you still don't even know if the new frog is going to be the correct sex either. How long do you want to repeat the process? In your example you can buy your 50% chance for an extra 50%...kinda odd how that works huh.

When it comes down to it, it just depends on if you like to gamble and if you can afford to gamble.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

If you feel it is unfair...go ahead and gain the "advantage" for you'reself...raise some froglets up to the point where you can accurately sex them, and then sell them for a "unfair" profit.

I look forward to seeing you're ad 10-24 months from now.

Furthermore, if you feel it is unfair, the answer is simple, don't buy them, let someone else buy them, and start producing offspring while you are still growing up you're fair-priced "bargain" froglets.

I don't mean to be a dink (though I think I did just that), just trying to show a breeder's point of view.


----------



## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

You pay what you think the frog is worth to you, plain and simple, if it costs too much dont buy the frog. As long as I have been around, sexed frogs always went for at least 50% more than unsexed.

Having been in the hobby for around 7 years ( not alot of time compared to some people on this board ) I have never seen the market in its current state with prices dropping so low on captive born frogs. No treatment/deworming needed or loss to parasites.

Frogs that once sold for $300 ( unsexed froglets ) and had year long waits don't even sell for $100 sexed with multiple sellers.

rob


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Absolutely.

And make sure you keep your prices the same as froglets when you're selling the excess as sexed frogs - otherwise you'll be a hypocrite.

s


Dancing frogs said:


> ... Furthermore, if you feel it is unfair, the answer is simple, don't buy them, let someone else buy them, and start producing offspring while you are still growing up you're fair-priced "bargain" froglets.


----------



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

Maybe "unfair" is the wrong word. And keep in mind this post is not a reaction to not being able to find a bargain on pumilio. I have paid large sums for other pairs of frogs. It is not the money as much as it is I am becoming more aware. I believe it was on kingsnake.com (or here, cant remeber). People were selling "probable" and "possible" pairs for higher prices. To me this is a good way for somone to get disappointed. 

Now the dedication to spend a weekend sexing frogs as mentioned is hard work. But do all of us do this? More often then not i see a post stating "wait to see if there is any calling". I have done the same.

For thos looking forward to seeing my ads in the classified. I'm not in the frog hobby so much for the money as much as the joy and challanges of keeping them. Ive given away intermedius froglets (to responsible owners that i know well).

Didnt expect such hostility but i take it as coming rom folks who are looking to sell or have sold theirs for a nice profit and would like it to stay that way. Fine by me


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

In that case - do what at least one member here does (and it's not me ... ), sell and donate the $ to your favorite charity.

Frogs you give away more often die than frogs that you sell. People intrinsically value their possessions by how much they pay for them.

I've seen it happen way too often with frogs that were given away (they just weren't cared for as well).

s


MrGerbik said:


> ... For thos looking forward to seeing my ads. I'm not in the frog hobby so much for the money as much as the joy and challanges of keeping them. Ive given away intermedius froglets (to responsible owners that i know well)


----------



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

I was not worried about them dying. As i said i know the person well.

I had finished reading the book "Lizard King". I highly recommend it. Its about smuggling in the reptile and amphibian industry. They touch on the overprice factor (though mostly in snakes) and how overpricing is detrimental to the hobby. Not because animals are unaffordable but because of the lengths at which people will go to get in on whatever is selling.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I don't believe in overpricing either (and back that up with what I ask for my frogs) - but I do believe in always charging something.

What I really believe in is giving people more than what they expect. Throw a few plant cuttings in or maybe a springtail culture or such. Some value added item.

s


----------



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

To me that is what i am looking for. Charge me 300 for a basti pair. Fine. If i couldnt spend the money i wouldnt be in the hobby. But let me leave with that good feeling. A plant cutting is cheap as is a springtail culture, but at least i get a sense of almost somthing like "community" out of it.

That tells me that your saying, "i'm not here to just take your money. I want you to enjoy these frogs and here is a little somthing to help you out"


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

MrGerbik said:


> Didnt expect such hostility but i take it as coming rom folks who are looking to sell or have sold theirs for a nice profit and would like it to stay that way. Fine by me


I'm recently back into the hobby and haven't sold an animal in almost 10 years. I do plan on selling frogs in the future and I would be lying if I didn't plan on making a little bit of money off of them as well. But I can tell you now that most people who are hobbyist selling frogs in the classifieds are putting nearly everything they make in profits back in the hobby in one way or another. Whether they buy supplies, tanks, plants or even frogs from other members or just the cost of raising and recouping what they have invested currently in the animal for sale.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Absolutely - couldn't agree with you more.

s


MrGerbik said:


> ... That tells me that your saying, "i'm not here to just take your money. I want you to enjoy these frogs and here is a little somthing to help you out"


----------



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

To make a profit is fine. Who dosnt. But when you buy your frogs. Do you calculate in your head how many you need to seel to recoup any exepnses on them or are you buying them because you like them. Hate to bring up the book Lizard King again, but the guy admits, he Did not like snakes that much but was in it because of all the money. Are people buying frogs they are uninterested in because they are looking to turn a profit?



jubjub47 said:


> I'm recently back into the hobby and haven't sold an animal in almost 10 years. I do plan on selling frogs in the future and I would be lying if I didn't plan on making a little bit of money off of them as well. But I can tell you now that most people who are hobbyist selling frogs in the classifieds are putting nearly everything they make in profits back in the hobby in one way or another. Whether they buy supplies, tanks, plants or even frogs from other members or just the cost of raising and recouping what they have invested currently in the animal for sale.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

People who know me, know my saying ...

*Keep what you like ... *

That way, if things don't sell, you still have your enjoyment of the frogs.

An investment - if it doesn't sell, it's irritating. I've irrationally done it once or twice and regretted it - most of the time immediately.

*Keep what you like ... *

s 


MrGerbik said:


> ... Are people buying frogs they are uninterested in because they are looking to turn a profit?


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

MrGerbik said:


> To make a profit is fine. Who dosnt. But when you buy your frogs. Do you calculate in your head how many you need to seel to recoup any exepnses on them or are you buying them because you like them. Hate to bring up the book Lizard King again, but the guy admits, he Did not like snakes that much but was in it because of all the money. Are people buying frogs they are uninterested in because they are looking to turn a profit?


I don't think that anyone gets into a hobby to make money initially. There are some people that take the hobby into the business realm that do. I am personally in the hobby for the enjoyment and know that I will only keep something that I am interested in. Just like with any hobby, your going to have people that decide to pursue a business out of their hobby and probably do choose to keep animals so that they can profit from them. Whether that is a good thing or not, they are still only going to be able to make "market value". I personally prefer dealing with other hobbyist, but I can't hold it against somebody for wanting to keep and produce something that has value to it. Regardless of their intentions, if they are introducing frogs into the hobby that are properly cared for at fair market price it only helps the hobby.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you look on black jungle's website, there is a break down on how many frogs you have to purchase to be assured of getting a pair. Typically if you really want to be sure you have a pair you need to purchase 4-6 animals. 
Depending on who is offering the possible sexes, it could just be a marketing gimmick.. that is much more likely to occur on kingsnake than here or one or two other locations due to how the community works here.. 

Hijack alert for the rest of the post.... 



MrGerbik said:


> I was not worried about them dying. As i said i know the person well.
> 
> I had finished reading the book "Lizard King". I highly recommend it. Its about smuggling in the reptile and amphibian industry. They touch on the overprice factor (though mostly in snakes) and how overpricing is detrimental to the hobby. Not because animals are unaffordable but because of the lengths at which people will go to get in on whatever is selling.



Its not really the over priced factor.. its about how you can get more money for the rarer or unusual animal due to the gotta have the hottest new thing mentality.... 
Of the major players in that book, I have either met, ordered animals from when I worked in a pet store, purchased an animal from (almost 35 years ago now).... and while its an enjoyable read, it does not truely portray the picture (its too clean and justified..)


----------



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

Well isnt that what is being talked about? Where the hotter frogs see the largest leaps in price.

I figured there was alot more to the story when i read it. Considering all the drug involvment and such


----------



## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

> Its not really the over priced factor.. its about how you can get more money for the rarer or unusual animal due to the gotta have the hottest new thing mentality....


Its not just that though, there's a marketing phenomenon where you can jack the price of something up, and it sells better. Raising the price leads to the illusion that the "quality is higher" or that there's "less supply", or "more demand", when none of these things are true. There have been numerous marketing studies that have shown that if you put out two identical items, with different prices, people will generally say the higher one is more desirable.


----------



## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Looks like everyone covered the seller's standpoint well, but to introduce another perspective.. If I am a customer that has a male of a certain frog and has been looking for a proven female for a long time, I would be willing to pay more for that female, than paying less for an unsexed frog and raising it out in the hopes it turns out to be female. I would rather pay more and get the specific thing I was looking for.


----------



## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Corpus Callosum said:


> Looks like everyone covered the seller's standpoint well, but to introduce another perspective.. If I am a customer that has a male of a certain frog and has been looking for a proven female for a long time, I would be willing to pay more for that female, than paying less for an unsexed frog and raising it out in the hopes it turns out to be female. I would rather pay more and get the specific thing I was looking for.



I completely agree with this. 
I am more than willing to pay alot more for a frog that is exactly what I want than to have to wait and hope the froglet that I got turns out to be male/ female.
I need a male iquinto. I found a probable one that I wanted to buy but buying only one frogs was not enough for the person to ship. Which I completely understand. I just did not have the extra funds to make it worth it ( buying more than the one)

It takes a decent amount of time to raise a froglet up to know if it is a male or female. I dont see a problem with paying more for that persons time and effort.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Conley said:


> Its not just that though, there's a marketing phenomenon where you can jack the price of something up, and it sells better. Raising the price leads to the illusion that the "quality is higher" or that there's "less supply", or "more demand", when none of these things are true. There have been numerous marketing studies that have shown that if you put out two identical items, with different prices, people will generally say the higher one is more desirable.



In the old days when there were fewer reptile and amphibian dealers and price lists were mailed to people.. one dealer would put the animal up really high on the first list it was available and then drop the price each month until he got to his bottom price or sold all of them.

The other trick along this line is to advertise fewer items than you really have available which makes what you have seem more desirable and therefore worth more. 

Ed


----------



## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Even though my purchase of frogs has been delayed I'd like to put in a small observation and opinion to this.

I recently got a price for probable sexed frogs that was very reasonable. I would say there are many factors in price. One of them being if the person has taken the time to trace, track, and keep up on the lineage of the frogs.

I have noticed that this also effects price. Being sexed is a huge plus and I would say there are reasonable breeders out there (especially pumilio) that aren't going to jack the price up. One reason for this is in my months of reading this board, other boards, and around the internet is that the 4 month mark for pumilio seems to be the turning point for survival. There are exceptions to this and it's often 6 months. Since pumilio mature quite young there are several breeders that don't even pull them from the parent tank until after 4 - 6 months.

You just have to do a bit of searching on the board see who does what (there are alot of posts on how different breeders deal with their pumilio froglets due to mortality rates) and see how everyone handles their froglets.

On that note yes there are some people who sell their froglets and sub adults to make a profit. There are others who just want to see them get a good home or just want to recover some cost from the initial parent purchase.

I would like to comment on the "free frogs die more often" statement. I believe this is a matter of screening who you are giving the frogs to. I've had a free rabit turn into a $300 setup to care for it not to mention the vet bills because he was albino and also had a major issue with his teeth which had to be clipped every week to 2 weeks because they did not rub together and cut themselves down as normal.

I had a free water dragon that turned into over $500 and I wasn't even close to done with the final enclosure I was building. Unfortunately I had to give her away and you know where I took her? A reptile rescue center over 2 hours drive one way from where I lived. I took setup and all and gave her to them for free as I knew she would be cared for and found a good home.

It's not often the actual fact of giving an animal away for free that leads to death. It's who you give it to. Look to people who have other animals and such and how they are cared for and it generally will mean the frog you are giving will get the same level of care.

EDIT: One more comment on that. I would NEVER give a child a free animal. What you really are doing when you do that is giving a free frog to the parents. So on that note it's the parents that need to qualify for care / monetary responsibility. Tho the child may take care of the frog (this is a rare instance) it is the parents that pay for setup, food, and do the care when the child is at camp or simply loses interest. So I guess in a way you can "give a child a frog" but keep in my if the parents are willing to take over as the responsible party.


----------



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

For me the time and effort argument does not hold much water. LEts look at pumilio. A breeder has 5 pumilio. He has been raising them for 6 months. He posts them on here for 100 each. The next day for some reason or other he figures out the sex on one of them. Now that pumilio is 200. There is that time where the price gets jacked up becasue of sex.

Are you going to tell me that before it was sexed the mans time was worth less? Or was it the day that had passed between sexed and unsexed costs 100 dollars of the mans time?.

No its based on sex. If the man sold the frog just a day later he would have only made 100.


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I think that everyone is agreeing that knowing the sex increases the value. Why should it not increase the value? The value of many things flucuate rapidly based on events and newly aquired information. I guess that I don't understand your point.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

More specifically - if you had *bought* the frog the day before, you would only pay $100.

Don't pin it on the seller.

[edit: You forget the most important tool. Contacting sellers privately. You can always try to work things out. Or you can post in the Wanted section ... ]
s


MrGerbik said:


> ... No its based on sex. If the man sold the frog just a day later he would have only made 100.


----------



## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

MrGerbik said:


> For me the time and effort argument does not hold much water. LEts look at pumilio. A breeder has 5 pumilio. He has been raising them for 6 months. He posts them on here for 100 each. The next day for some reason or other he figures out the sex on one of them. Now that pumilio is 200. There is that time where the price gets jacked up becasue of sex.
> 
> Are you going to tell me that before it was sexed the mans time was worth less? Or was it the day that had passed between sexed and unsexed costs 100 dollars of the mans time?.
> 
> No its based on sex. If the man sold the frog just a day later he would have only made 100.


to quote mike "Looks like everyone covered the seller's standpoint well, but to introduce another perspective.. If I am a customer that has a male of a certain frog and has been looking for a proven female for a long time, I would be willing to pay more for that female, than paying less for an unsexed frog and raising it out in the hopes it turns out to be female. I would rather pay more and get the specific thing I was looking for." Certain frogs also tend to run heavy one sex or the other like escudo running female heavy this is yet another reason why certain frogs cost more because of the sex and in the case pumilio unless they're calling or have laid eggs you don't now the sex so yes they should cost more.
Brian

Brian


----------



## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

MrGerbik said:


> Are you going to tell me that before it was sexed the mans time was worth less? Or was it the day that had passed between sexed and unsexed costs 100 dollars of the mans time?.
> .


Thats a lot of the problems. These $200 sexed individuals are the frogs that they COULDNT SELL at $100. 

That being said, I have no problem with rare imports being much more expensive sexed. Stuff like Leucs, Azureus, and Auratus though?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It does all boil down to supply and demand. There is currently a higher demand for sexed frogs than there are for unsexed frogs. If you don't want to purchase the frogs at the higher price, then as the consumer you have the ability to make that choice, and can instead take the risk and purchase either one frog plus shipping and take the coin flip you get the right sex or purchase a group of frogs plus shipping or purchase no frogs at all. 

I have not sold a frog on this or another website so I can't be accused of being in favor of the vendors.... 

If you don't like the price then don't pay it and see if you can get a better deal. Its not like there is a gun pointed at your head saying buy that frog at that price or else! 

Ed


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't usually get involved in these kinds of debates, but thought I should make an observation that there is a significant difference between the jobbers and wholesalers on Kingsnake for example (who I would argue are more in line with the sellers in 'Lizard Kings') and vendors from DB who have demonstrated that they are a part of this community.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

So you make your statement ... and you don't buy.

What's the big deal here? Supply and demand. Same as anything else.

Why are cars cheaper right now (all kinds of deals)? Because they cannot *sell* them.

Why are unsexed frogs cheaper? Because people *want* sexed frogs.

Absolutely the same thing.

Geez - if I had waited another week to buy that car I could've gotten $4,500 back!

s


Rich Conley said:


> ... That being said, I have no problem with rare imports being much more expensive sexed. Stuff like Leucs, Azureus, and Auratus though?


----------



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Scott said:


> Geez - if I had waited another week to buy that car I could've gotten $4,500 back!
> 
> s


You have to be careful with waiting, it may have started calling by then


----------

