# Frog compatibility



## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

hello everyone, im new to here and dart frogs. i was wondering if it is possible to mix thumbnails with the larger tinctorius frogs. the only reason for this is because ive got a 18 by 18 by 24 size terranium and i want to fill it with different colors. im not looking to cross breed frogs im just simply wanting frogs that i think look good and will go to different levels in the terrarium. i hope you can help 
thanks
kurt


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

No


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

You will find the majority of advice against such mixing.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

I agree with above, but I'll give a little explanation in hopes of making you understand our judgement; we're not just being harsh.

First, you're right, the different groups can't hybridize. However, there are many reasons not to mix other than hybridization. For example, interspecies territoriality can be violent and very stressful.

Also, you're correct that you want the frogs to be kept to seperate "levels in the terrarium." Sadly, a 18X18X24 tank just isn't big enough to do that. There are very few to no frogs that won't move all about that height. While some might prefer the upper or lower levels, there will be overlap.

The desire to mix colors is very understandable, and I think we all have gone through it. My solution is to create a rainbow of plants, that complements a single color of frog. Maybe not as pretty as a rainbow of frogs, but much safer and healthier for the frogs.

-Solly


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

thanks alot for the explanation, i just needed to know that before i went out to buy anything, so another question can i mix different species of thumbnails in that terrarium? and how many do you think i could fit in there. to help you out a little more with answering the question it is the exo-terra glass terrarium.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

also do you think i should get the more square tank or the tall tank?


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## brian_ (Sep 16, 2006)

Get the tall tank, no mixing of any species and you can keep around 3-5... depending on the species.

Correct me if I'm wrong, after all, I only have 20 posts... what do I know?


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

why cant i mix thumbnail species?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Interbreeding (hybridizing). Very much frowned upon.

You need to read up quite a bit more.

s


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

i understand that, im not looking to breed to sell, im just simply wanting a variety in a terrarium. i only want them for the passion of raising animals, my interest for frogs and something to keep me entertained. ive raised african, south and central american cichlids for 6 years now and im moving on to something a little more interesting. but if you guys dont think i should mix than you know, ill listen but i dont see it hurting the frogs at all.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Kurtspoison said:


> why cant i mix thumbnail species?


Solly's explaination from above encompasses this. There have been at least three topics on this very topic in the past two weeks in addition to the sticky located at the top of this page. It would behoove you to read those threads to understand the backing for the hobby's stance on this.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

sorry, new to the forums, didnt mean to affend, defaced


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

My own personal advice is to eschew any mixing of species or morphs of the different species until you have a lot of experience raising each one in a separate environment. Mixing is not only possible, but is often done with success, but usually in a much larger vivarium than your plan. Within the confines of a vivarium, as opposed to a rain forest of many meters, arboreal and terrestrial designations mean next to nothing. In my own personal experience, every species of dart frog I keep uses all levels of their separate vivariums from top to bottom. Just sit back, appreciate the first ones you get before you dive in to go whole hog and and mix them for skin color alone. They have a lot more amusement value to offer than skin color. They have personalities, often quite individually distinctive that sometimes border on true intelligence, curiosity and inventiveness. Most of those I keep are far more colorful other than the colors of their skin. There's more to them than a colored decoration as part of a room decor.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm with Patty and the rest of the gang here. Even if you're not attending to breed them - they'll breed without your permission. 

Then what?!?

s


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Actually in some ways mixing thumbnails can cause more problems than mixing larger frogs. This is due to their aggressive behavior and territoriality. Even within the same species and with frogs considered good group frogs, you will see male-male and female-female aggression. You could easily start off with 4-6 frogs only to watch them steadily dwindle to a much smaller number.

I second Scott's point...the frogs will breed eventually. Given that thumbnails can raise tadpoles in the tiniest of water sources, you will eventually end up with hybrid frogs.

Good luck with your research and don't feel bad...my first question when purchasing my first darts was 'Can you mix different colored ones together'  The answer was of course 'NO!' and I said okay and have never looked back.

Darts are not hard to keep but they aren't a walk in the park either so anything that optimizes their health and well being, including minimizing frog-frog aggression, is a plus in my book.

Have fun and welcome to the board.

Bill


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

My advice is to find a colorful frog, not many frogs with different colors. One problem with the thumbs though, is that they are harder to care for, and if you haven't kept darts before is not recomended. You might possibly be able to get away with vents though, just a thought.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Kurtspoison said:


> sorry, new to the forums, didnt mean to affend, defaced


You didn't offend me; I'm pointing you to where you can find more information on the topic so you can get a better understanding of why people are advised not to mix their frogs.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

Patty and Bill, thank you soo much for your advice and answers. that is the kind of responses that inspire us beginners to understand dart frogs better. i agree that the colors on the inside of an animal can be a lot brighter than the outside. i really liked that comment. but anyways thank you all so very much. i have decided i want to go with vents. on that note is there anyone here that sells vents for a fairly cheap price? and does anyone know of anyone that goes to the michigan reptile show that can bring those types of frogs? thanks for all the help. you have no idea how much i appreciate it
kurt


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

or should i get imitators


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

If you want to start with a thumbnail species, I also love the imitators, especially in groups of four or five. They are very active, rather bold little guys. The females will fight, head butt, wrestle, chase, throw each other around, but they seem to be pretty nimble and don't seem to get hurt or overly intimidated, in my own experience with them. Watching them breed, carry the tads to a brome leaf axil, feed and guard them can be quite a show. I've even had two different females compete to feed the same tadpole. The "Aunty" would sneak in when Mama was off guard. They will eat each others' eggs as well, but usually manage to raise some of the tadpoles on their own. They need a lot of space for their tiny size. Photos never do justice to their bright iridescent colors. Mine remind me of Black Hills Gold--the yellow to greenish golds blended down into their net stocking blue legs.


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## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

Go for the imis, much more bold than vents and the pics I have seen are just gorgeous!


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I forgot to mention that they are among the better beginner frogs, as they are more hardy than most other thumbnails, which as has been pointed out, are not generally recommended for starters. Their small size is a bit intimidating and scary. An adult is after all, just about the size of your thumbnail, and they are faster than a speeding bullet. They are also escape artists, and can get out of any small crack in your vivarium cover that can accommodate a fruit fly, so you have to be especially careful not to have any possible escape routes, or they will certainly do it, ending up on the floor wasted, as a rather expensive mummy. I speak from sad, first hand experience with underestimating escape possibilities of any dart frog, but especially the thumb nails, more than once, I'm ashamed to admit.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Kurt,

I think it's especially hard for any of us coming from fishkeeping to really adjust to the idea of single species tanks at such low stocking rates, so don't feel like the Lone Ranger. You will be amazed at how a pair or trio of thumbs can fill up a viv! BTW, my first pdfs were thumbs and I've never regretted it.

Also--spend a bit of time on the viv & plant forums--you'll find that this aspect of the hobby is nearly as fulfilling as the frogs themselves!

PS: Welcome! There's been a lot of activity among MI froggers recently--you might want to get on their email list (see posts in the regional meetings section).


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

If you're coming from fish keeping, I think it'd almost be easier to understand some of the problems... think of these as those cichlids that are so ridiculously aggressive you have to keep a species tank and even in some cases have to be careful about members of even their own species! I've made the comparison a number of times... we have enough problems keeping members of the same species happy with each other, much less adding on the worry of meeting the needs of more than one species and figuring out how they interact with each other.

These animals are highly aggressive, between members of their own species and members of other species. And while you might think of their needs as being very similar, there are actually things you need to consider for each species that makes it hard to impossible to mix the frogs successfully long term.

Its like walking into an aquarium store and saying "i want that, that, that, and that cuz they are pretty"... just to find out one is saltwater, one will grow big enough to eat everything else, one jumps out of the tank all the time, and the last eats only live food. EEEEEEEEK. And thats not even bringing up temps and pH needs.

You fish people are spoiled with all the fish that get along! Then again, you guys also have hundreds more species and biotopes to choose from than we do.


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