# Bad Eggs Again, what am I doing wrong?



## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Ok, the last clutch of two eggs turned white (Azureus Eggs Good or Bad) this morning I pulled another clutch of three eggs after 2 days after laying. and already they look questionable, ok this my supplementation routine I feed every day and supplement every feeding, herptivite only one day, repashy calcium plus ICB day 2, herptivite +repashy calcium plus ICB day3, herptivite + reptical day4, then I start the cycle again. I mist with disilled water two or three times a day. I also fill the small deli containers with distilled water also (which I see my male soaking in just before the courtship, this is like clock work) I was thinking if maybe the distilled water is not a good source for my male Azureus to be soaking in, wetting the clutch as he tries to fertilize the eggs. This supplementation routine I started about 3 weeks ago, before that I was useing herptivite and reptical every day. This is been going on since oct.
what do you guy think? I'm doing something wrong here? the reason I mist with distilled is to prevent calcium buildup on the glass. here are some pics of the eggs I pulled this morning. 




























Thanks


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I use distilled water too and my frogs lay mostly good eggs, one group laid bad eggs for about 10 months before any tads though so you might just need to wait it out - you're supplementing enough (almost seems like too much?)


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## Dendrobatid (May 6, 2010)

How old is this pair?


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

Sounds like you and I have similar problems. My pair of Azureus have been laying since June of last year and I still lose many eggs. They usually lay 4-5 and only 1-2 survive. I do the same feeding as you and everything (feed everyday with supplementation). I think that sometimes it just takes a while for them to get it down. Hopefully they start putting out more viable eggs.


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Hey Dave,

When eggs have that marbled look they are generally no good.

How old are your frogs? Generally you won't see good eggs in the first few months the frogs start breeding and sometimes the first year. Many factors affect this including the diet and how much food the frogs have been offered months prior to egg production.

Azureus are pretty bullet proof when it comes to captive breeding, so really you don't need to do much. If you plan on pulling the eggs and raising the tads you can wait until the eggs develop before removing them, you should be able to see the tadpole in the egg with the gill filaments sticking out the sides, which will be red fused with blood. 

Putting distilled water into the bowl should be fine, I fill mine with RO water, but most of the water bowls have some algae growing in them and are continuously filled with bits of soil and leaf litter as the frogs track it in. If you plan on removing the eggs it's best to water them with some tadpole tea.

Your supplements are fine.

Probably you just need to wait and let the frogs get it right, at least they are on the right track.

Hope this helps, good luck with them
Eric


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

This is common with tincs, especially azureus so don't worry. Takes them a while to get it right and even when they do, they still give bad eggs. Mine took a month break and then she laid 10 eggs. Only 1 tadpole hatched. Since then she's laid 6 eggs or so every 5 days and they've all been good.

It's not your fault...it's not nutrition for the pair, it's not what kind of water you're using. Good eggs stay good and bad eggs go bad. Not much you can do.

First instinct is to find a reason to blame something but don't do that. It's the frogs working it out. I've heard of eggs not being noticed and the jelly almost drying out completely and the tads surviving. Like I said, good eggs will stay good. You can't save eggs that aren't going to make it from the beginning.

Good luck! I know how frustrating it can be. I use tap water with a little water conditioner. I think a lot of people over think the water issue. If your tap water tests out fine it's ok. I prefer to have trace elements in my water anyway. Distilled and RO worries me that the minerals are gone. I don't know much about this but I do know that they don't use this kind of water in the wild. I do use it for misting once in a while but I hope no one uses RO or distilled for tadpole tea. I could of sworn I heard that it can screw with things. My tap tests great besides heavy metals which I remove. Tadpole tea comes out great too....though I'm sure tads can do great in anything. They're meant to be survivors.

Don't feel bad...even some of the top breeders in the US have problems with their azureus. It's one of the most popular selling dart frogs too so I'm sure that gets annoying. 

D

D


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## Wyoming frogger (Dec 18, 2009)

Yep, they said it well. Patience and lots of bad clutches. They eventually get it right.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dave,

This may be due to hypovitaminosis of A... if the pair is allowed to continue the regular deposition cycle, it can take a lot of time for the vitamin reserves to build up (as frequency of egg deposition is based on lipid stores regardless if there are sufficient reserves of other required nutrients) using supplements available to the hobby. 

I would suggest using a dry vitamin A human grade supplement at least once a month and probably twice a month for a few months to bring the stored levels back up in the female. They can be purchased inexpensively online or through some retailers and come in capsules. The capsules can be opened and reground to increase adhesion to the feeders. This should result in an increase in fertility. If you have questions, you can consult with Dr. Wright on this topic... 

On a different note, have you seen active courtship or is the female dumping eggs? 

Ed


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Thanks Guys, you all been great with your responses, My pair have been going at since oct. of last year, and yes they are definitely courting the calling, the stroking by the female and following mr. stud around the viv,
there age is male (adult purchased from Nabors) and the female (raised from 3 or 4 mo. froglet purchased memorial day weekend 2010) I've gotten 10 to 15 small clutches (the most 5 eggs) since they started in Oct 2010. but I guess I'll just be patient and wait it out. Thanks again to all of you who responed so quickly with my dilema.

Dave


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Five months of infertile egg deposition is an indication that there is something wrong with the system... I would start looking at increasing the vitamin A through a human grade dry vitamin A supplement. If that doesn't resolve the situtation in the next 2-3 months, I would seperate and pair the frogs up with a different animal to see if it was due to poor fertility of one of the pair. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I wouldn't add any more vitamins to the mix. That's a lot of vits and minerals. If they are all good(not expired) I think that's too much. Maybe try non dusted crickets in the mix. Try feeding non dusted items 1/2 of your rotation and see what happens. They won't die if you don't supplement for a while w/ that dusting regime.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Dave,

I agree with Ed about the Vitamin A supplimentation, but I have definitely noticed in my collection that when the tinctorius lay their eggs on leaf surfaces, they more often than not fail compared to the same pairs laying in the petri dishes. Perhaps the males can't get into place to fertilize correctly (though some of the eggs do get fertilized) or there are other factors I'm not aware of.

My Azureus tend to lay in the cocohuts, but a pair of my Matechos and one pair of my Bakhuis tincs almost always lay on leaves.

You may want to try to remove the leaves that the Azureus are laying on, just to force them to use the petri dish.

Just my experience, Richard.


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I agree with Ed about the Vitamin A supplimentation, but I have definitely noticed in my collection that when the tinctorius lay their eggs on leaf surfaces, they more often than not fail compared to the same pairs laying in the petri dishes. Perhaps the males can't get into place to fertilize correctly (though some of the eggs do get fertilized) or there are other factors I'm not aware of.
> 
> ...


Thanks Richard, I'll try that, but my Azureus also have laid on the petri dishes, I have 2 cocohuts with dishes in them, maybe I'll move the huts around to another location and remove some of the leaves, they should be due to lay another clutch in another 5 days like clockwork. I would say 75% of the time in the cocohut.

Thanks


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

My bad, not 5 days, alot sooner I saw them earlier butt to butt on a leaf and when I got home 3 more eggs, this time I left them there to see what happens with these. will this stop them from laying another clutch if they turn out to be bad if I leave them there or will they continue to lay elsewhere?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The rate of egg deposition is controlled by fat reserves so if the female has sufficient fat, she will continue to produce clutches.


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Great information guys. My Azureus are just about ready to conceive and I appreciate this info as well.


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