# How to tell if your substrate is too moist?



## RadOncFrog (Mar 22, 2021)

I think this question has probably been asked too many times here, but looking through old threads I feel like it's still not obvious too me (maybe because there isn't a right answer?). I've got ABG substrate (on top of a false bottom), covered in leaf litter. I've got a MistKing running, the top of my leaf litter usually dries out in between misting sessions, but the bottom layer stays wet. I'm starting to suspect my substrate is too moist, and I've attached a picture of my substrate below (with leaf litter removed). If I squeeze a bit of it, a couple drops of water comes out. The water level in my false bottom is pretty much constant. Humidity usually is >80%. Just want to make sure my substrate isn't so soaked that I'm risking root rot with my plants? If anyone has any pics of what ABG substrate should look like, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Looks a little damp to me, maybe it doesn't have enough ability to drain into the false bottom (what is the ABG made up of?), or if your false bottom stays full of water and you are using something like hydro balls for your drainage layer, you could be seeing wicking of water back up to the soil.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Grab a handful and squeeze. If water comes out, it's too wet. And that looks too wet. Like Chris said, we need some info on what kind of substrate mix you're using and what your false bottom is. It's either bad drainage or wicking. There's also the possibility you are over misting. Does the tank itself have drainage.


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## RadOncFrog (Mar 22, 2021)

So I got the ABG mix from Josh's Frogs, listed as "charcoal, milled sphagnum moss, fir bark, tree fern, and peat". The drainage layer is LECA balls, with a substrate barrier covering it. The false bottom always has water in it, it doesn't touch the substrate barrier, but I imagine wicking is likely happening. The tank doesn't have a drainage drilled, but I incorporated a PVC pipe in to my background so I can access the drainage layer. 

If it is wicking, is there anything I can do short of tearing up the entire bottom?


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

That looks like my substrate! In other words, too moist. I don’t have frogs so I haven’t been motivated enough to tear the tank apart, but that’s pretty much the only answer. Replace the LECA with PVC rounds that don’t wick at all, and use the LECA to grow orchids in S/H...well, that’s what I would do. 

You can try just not leaving any water in the drainage area, but the only way that would be practical would be to drill a drainage hole in the bottom of your tank, and that has other issues.

Oh, I guess you could try adding a layer of matala before the screen as a wicking break, but I don’t know if that would be any less work than tearing up the whole thing.


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## RadOncFrog (Mar 22, 2021)

Ugh. Any other suggestions before I embark on this endeavor? Seems like it’s going to be a huge mess...

As an aside, what’s with all the bad advice on setting up a vivariums? Coming straight from certain vendors too that I’m now never going to use. I used an egg crate false bottom 10+ years ago, clearly shouldn’t have deviated from that. Stuff online made it seem like LECA is the way to go.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Half my tanks have leca bottoms, the other half have egg crate false bottoms. 

The substrate in both stay rightly the same dampness in my opinion. The amount of wicking is fairly minimal. I do use a thicker layer of leca than most other builds seem to use. 

OP: more ventilation, less misting to let it dry out a little bit and then see if you can get it to stay at that equilibrium.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

My first vivs were built with homebrewed ABG (rather, "ABG"). Since I didn't know all the little ways in which ABG can be made wrongly (how could I have? I had no experience with it), mine turned out too moisture-retentive -- I realized this pretty early on, but wasn't concerned enough to swap it out. 

I squeezed a couple substrates just now and sure enough, that DIY stuff drips a good amount with a squeeze, while my purchased ABG does not. I don't have any wicking going on, BTW (eggcrate is awesome, Matala is also but expensive and hard-ish to work with, and my last couple vivs have a filter foam drainage layer that is looking to be the best of all options).

Anyway, those couple vivs run a little soggy, but plants grow fine in them, and since there is always a good deep layer of leaf litter (the proper amount of leaf litter, BTW, is "more"), it doesn't affect the frogs.

As for 'all the bad advice', trying specifically to figure out what is bad about something is often a useful tactic in sifting through advice. So instead of searching "LECA best drainage" or something, try "LECA problems", or (this one hits the jackpot, but of course you have to know already in order to guess the right search term -- Catch 22) "LECA wicks". I suggest this sort of trick often -- don't research whether something works, but rather pretend you're playing for the other team and try to suss out why the thing doesn't work, because people don't often tell you that right up front.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Lots of good advice above...and agreed you probably have a wicking issue.

I have it too in many of the older tanks. It isn't the end of the world, and you don't need to restart. Drain as much water as you can out, then let the tank dry out. Try to keep a very minimal amount of water in the drainage layer - then you won't have as much wicking. It's actually beneficial for your plants, in my opinion, as they don't dry out.

Depending on what kind of frogs you have, and what plants are in there, you can probably dry out the tank over a week or two. Just stop or drastically reduce misting. If you have Ranitomeya, for example, and have bromeliads, they will be fine and just retreat to them when the humidity is too low. Maybe just do a nice small misting every morning, and keep it dryer the rest of the day until your water disappears. If you have other types of frogs that can't retreat like that, you can always pull them out temporarily and keep them in a temp enclosure with higher humidity. 

Once the water is gone, gear it back up slowly until you start to see water accumulating again, then dial it back down a bit. Going forward, you can use the drainage layer to indicate changes to your misting patterns. I actually find it a helpful indicator I do not have in some other tanks I built with matala mat.

Not the end of the world - and not necessarily horrible advice to use LECA. Everything has its ups and downs, there is no perfect answer!


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

LECA is often promoted by vendors because it's easy for beginners and it gives them something else to sell you. The eggcrate light diffuser is also getting harder to find locally as that type of lighting isn't being installed anymore. I've seen a lot of froggers turn to LECA as a last resort. Another one I've seen that I'm curious about is koi pond filter pads. 

I started with LECA and gave up pretty quickly on it. I know some people have no problem but the wicking kept my substrate really wet and I did not have a lot of ventilation in my early vivs


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

You could collect all the water in a few sprays and calculate how much water you actually add per day. You will be amazed how much you add per day on such a small surface of substrate.
In my opinion a substrate is moist but never wet.


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## RadOncFrog (Mar 22, 2021)

Thanks everyone for the advice, much appreciated! I luckily don’t have any frogs in the viv yet, so I’m going to drain as much water as possible out of the drainage layer, stop the auto misting for now, and just do some targeted misting for the plants. If it doesn’t improve in a couple weeks, I’ll consider taking the LECA out then. Thanks!


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