# Expanding foam background question



## FrankWilliams (Apr 10, 2004)

Hey all.

I just bought a new 45 gallon pentagon tank, and applied some expanding foam to the back. Now I have a problem, siliconing it. I've seen this stuff dissolve from water over time, and I want to completely cover the thing with silicone, but it's pretty hard with just rubber gloves. Does anyone have any tricks/tips to seal it with something that actually seems to coat it instead of just spreading it around? 

Thank you.

Frank Williams


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## FrankWilliams (Apr 10, 2004)

Never mind. I've decided to get down and messy, not to mention screw up my wrists and coat the entire thing with silicone to seal it, then patch up spots I miss, and then put a very small fresh coat on and then put the dry cocofiber on.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2004)

I just tried this meathod last week and unfortunantly the silicone didn't seem to stick to the dry foam well enough to form a thick layer like in the tank on BLack Jungle. It seemed to get really thick in some parts and thin in others and when i tried to spread it with the gloves it just got worse. :? But Maybe it was just mine. Also trying to smear it on was kinda difficult from above. It really helps to have an opeing front. I'm intrested to see if it works for you.


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

Have you tried the weldbond method yet?

M.N


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2004)

I've found it's easier when you do smaller areas at a time. Once the stuff starts to dry, it's a LOT harder to move around.

Also, I try and fill in the little "cracks" and recessed areas first with the caulk gun (they're hard to get at if you're just spreading with gloves). sometimes, I'll miss a spot and have touch up a bit, but other than that it hasn't been to difficult.

never tried the weldbond- someone on this board had problems with it rehydrating (it was in a spot that was always wet)

~dj


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

As stated a million times, weldbond isnt made to be sybmerged in water. It will however stand against water sprays and high humidity; once cured. "Never try weldbond" isnt the best advice considering you havnt used it. I have; and know people who have; used both methods on several of my backgrounds and the weldbond beats the silicone anyday. 

Just my experience,
M.N


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## FrankWilliams (Apr 10, 2004)

Well, all seems to be doing fairly well. I've managed to seal the entire thing with silicone, and used about 5 tubes of it in the process. We wont even mention me having to pretty much climb inside the tank and apply the stuff, or what my arms and gloves looked like afterwards. Tomorrow I plan to put a light coat of it on, and then put down the dry cocofiber. Then Friday or Saturday I'll remove the excess silicone, and then find out exactly what I'm doing for the substrate. That's the part I have no idea about. I know I want it to look nice and be functional and pleasing for my Mantella Laevigata colony. 

A side note, Moe, DJ said: never tried the weldbond- someone on this board had problems with it rehydrating (it was in a spot that was always wet) 


He wasn't putting down the method, he simply stated he had no experience with it.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2004)

depending on the foam used, you might be wise to scuff it up a bit. get the 100 grit sandpaper and sand at the surface. the silicone needs something to stick to on some expanding foams like great stuff but it also depends on the type of exspansion properties of the foam. 

i use an expandable foam from the pond insurty. it's waterproof, safe, black...but expensive. work good though.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2004)

Weldbond works ok for areas that are going to remain drier and not completely submerged. I have a viv built for my imitators that has a foam background which is covered with weldbond and ecco-earth (ground up coco). The weldbond seems to hold up ok as long as it remains relatively dry but I will probably never go back to Weldbond as silicone seems to be the better choice for waterproofing. Images of the results of my former weldbond method can be see here: http://www.frognet.org/gallery/Experimental-20-gallon-vertical

-Bill J.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2004)

silicone is a great sealer. as it is applied you can add rocks, fiber, soil or what ever. using Great Stuff as the main shape and then silicone to water proof it is very easy and works well.


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

FrankWilliams said:


> A side note, Moe, DJ said: never tried the weldbond- someone on this board had problems with it rehydrating (it was in a spot that was always wet)
> 
> 
> He wasn't putting down the method, he simply stated he had no experience with it.


Oops, your right i misunderstood. Im sorry,

M.N


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

A question for others. How do you apply the slicone. Do you smear it all over the backwall at once, and spread the peat onto it. Or small sections individually? Either way it gets way too messy for me.

Silicone is great for making the water sections however.

M.N


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2004)

Dr. Frye posted a while ago that he built a tank that he did not seal with silicone at all, but rather just patted the coco fiber into it as it was drying. I can remember if he said it was a wet wall or not, but i would be interested to hear if and how well it is holding up without any sealing. It is non-toxic, so i dont see any harm to the herps other than chunks getting ingested. Maybe he can shed some insight on the longevity of his method vs sealed foam.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2004)

Its very messy.

I bought a box of latex gloves for the task. I do a small area at a time. Smear silicone, squish in the coco, rinse and repeat until this foam is covered. I then go back and touch up any spots i missed. 

I think sealing the foam with silicone first is a bit of over kill IMHO.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2004)

i use one pair of gloves per application of silicone. i use a plastic yellow putty knife and with the cualking gun squeeze out a large amount on the glass. (taping if needed.) then using the putty knife, i apply it like icing on a cake. very easy and i've not gotten messy, you just need to sort of get the swing of it i guess. will post a photo soon.

if covering the foam and not glass, the same approach is needed. you don't rinse until its dry. let the silicone - peat or coco or soil or moss, set up over night before doing anything other wise the silicone will hold water and fail...


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2004)

This is my first try at a background, and I think it is goin ok. Now I got to add the silicon and coco fiber. Do you do small parts at a time, wait overnight for it dry and then do another small part? Cuz wouldn't that take forever?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2004)

i would do it all at once. it would be dry in about two days. think about adding larger hardscape items into the foam during it's application like bowl rock or something. at times, i've used small planter cups in the foam to create pockets but not to into that idea anymore.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Next time, put other smaller cups, like 2 inch just in case in the future you want to add something, they are easily covered up so that it wont be seen if you end up not using it. Just a suggestion.

Ryan


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2004)

Here are some pics of my vivarium setup including the foam/silicone/coco process. Take a look and let me know what you think:

My Vivarium

Tomorrow I do the final vacuuming and try out the water system. Very exciting.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2004)

looks good. reminds me of hte tank i saw black jungle build. are you suing the foam as a substrate? how do you plant plants on the foam? or do you seal it? just curious. looks good, can't wait to see it planted!


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2004)

Very Nice Tim!
I hope you had someone else taking those pics, because that would have been a pain in the butt! 

Welcome to the board Deven, I still haven't used the mortar ye, lol. I just can't seem to find the time.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2004)

I used the foam throughout and will be selecting mainly epiphytic plants. I pretty much copied the black jungle guide step for step. I put a couple of plant pots in to house some centerpiece potted plants. I'll probably be planting the tank sometime next week but we'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the kind words! It's been a lot of work.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2004)

Looks awesome! 

I am just finishing my tank up after 3 months. I will be posting pictures soon. I built everything from scratch including the stand. It is more of a piece of furniture now.

I really like how the background angles towards the front and is not just a flat backwall. Hmmm maybe ill do some tweaks to mine this weekend. Thanks for the inspiration.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2004)

*hey ben! -*

Here is a link to a few images of the tank i used to try out the new herp safe foam. I used the regular great stuff, white and the water safe foam, black. the black is nice, the textures are good and it hold shape easy. 

i made two ledges for the water to flow over, on the left and near right. the layout is like a letter C. the bottom is close to the front, and the top area where the tree truck-root and the two water features are also closer to the front of the tank. 

it would have been best to use mesh cloth for the form but as this was sort of a free form, i decided to let the foam do what it wanted and just add the hardscape items. i'll try to get some better shots up to the link.

under the left is a cavern that won't be hit by water, selaginella will be planted here as well as the lower right, not sure what species yet. since mantella don't need bromeliads, there won't be any. 

mortar will cover the black as it won't need to be sealed but on the white, i'll be using the standard black GE2 to seal it up. i'll apply mortar to that once it's dry too. the stone i have chosen is local to the Berkeley hills and but won't know what kind till Saturday - asking the gem guys on Telegraph. I've seen it with moss growing on it so I'll also transplant that moss to the tank.

on the very top, the mortar will be used along with sand for a strata effect. the sand i am using is a hard clay based, grey. i'm hoping the texture and feeling will deter the mantellas from hanging out up top...of course they will more then likely hang down where the plants are.

I will be using a idea and planting onto the tree fern instead of soil (i know - tree killer). the water features of this tank are going to be allowed to flow where they want thus i need a very drainable substrate. normally there would be a stream and a return hole to the sump. i'll be tracing the bottom area next as the foam is dry enough to turn the tank upside down with out anything falling. once i have a good tracing i'll transfer that to the tree fern root panels i sell. 

this tank has only one hole. the fog if i do that will be pumped from above in the hood portion of the cabinet - and sunbeam is better then the rest! 

the plants that will be grown are 2 peperomia species, 2 selaginella species, and if possible, a few small Madagascar plants as this is only a ten gallon tank - something with a small flower i think would look great.

any thoughts about this? suggestions for plants? a nice place to get some healthy mantellas? or a small salamander...yeah yeah yeah...three lined are in but they aren't arboreal enough to make the most of the vertical. 
http://www.terra5designs.com/gallery/photos/gallery_one.html

you'll love the mortar! glad to hear your busy, and thanks!


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## Guest (May 1, 2004)

mantella legevata, from understory enterprises. It is the only true climbing mantella and will love the vertical space. Love the tree trunk feature. Your frogs are goin to love it.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

Thanks. i have it almost done now - just waiting for more info about mantella legevata before i plant it all the way. up loaded a few photo to the previous link.


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

is thatt sand covering the background? It looks awsome.


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

yeah - and Thanks! do you know where i can find any darts or mantellas that like to climb? i do have a milkd frog but he's content in his twenty hex tank.


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## Guest (May 15, 2004)

What if you're just using the foam behind cork backgorund? Do you still have to seal it with silicone??


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