# Sls



## Jonw (Jun 28, 2016)

Hi all,
My morphing tad has recent sprout both front legs and I'm wondering if he has sls. Lmk!


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## mudbug (Mar 31, 2016)

Unfortunately it doesn't look good. Can it move it's legs at all or are they rigid?


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I can't say for certain but the front legs look very underdeveloped and outstretched, which from what I understand is a indicator of SLS - not good 

Here's a pic of a very recently morphed frog at about the same stage in development.

Good luck!


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Hi Jon,
I agree that it doesn't look too good :-( 

How do you supplement the adults? This sort of thing can be indicative of malnutrition of the parents. Can you tell us about what you are using for supplementation and how often you are doing it? 

Mark


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## evolvstll77 (Feb 17, 2007)

The type of water can also play a part. My first clutch of leuc froglets years ago I used distilled water which is what I used to spray the tanks. Soon switched to spring water and problem corrected. 
Temperature of the water I have seen can have an impact on development. Both too cold and too warm.
As mentioned supplementation of parents.


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## jknight (Jun 25, 2009)

evolvstll77 said:


> The type of water can also play a part. My first clutch of leuc froglets years ago I used distilled water which is what I used to spray the tanks. Soon switched to spring water and problem corrected.
> Temperature of the water I have seen can have an impact on development. Both too cold and too warm.
> As mentioned supplementation of parents.


I've never heard of temperature having an impact on the development of SLS.. 

Can you provide a link on where you read this?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

evolvstll77 said:


> The type of water can also play a part. My first clutch of leuc froglets years ago I used distilled water which is what I used to spray the tanks. Soon switched to spring water and problem corrected.
> Temperature of the water I have seen can have an impact on development. Both too cold and too warm.
> As mentioned supplementation of parents.


If this was years ago, you probably didn't have access to some of the modern supplements (such as Repashy) so there maybe no way to know whether it was nutrition or water quality/temperature. It's pretty rare these days to have someone posting about SLS. I think this is, at least in part, due to the availability of better supplementation. I am interested in hearing if other folks attribute any SLS they have had with either of these factors. I have never had an issue with SLS, so I can't comment from experience.

Mark


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I've yet to have SLS and hope I never do. I use RO water with the usual stuff - about a square inch of indian almond leaf and a bit of java moss.

I think you're right that it almost always comes down to diet / health of the parents. Ed will probably tell us for the millionth billionth time: vitamin A


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

evolvstll77 said:


> The type of water can also play a part. My first clutch of leuc froglets years ago I used distilled water which is what I used to spray the tanks. Soon switched to spring water and problem corrected.
> Temperature of the water I have seen can have an impact on development. Both too cold and too warm.
> As mentioned supplementation of parents.


A lot of the old "causes" of SLS should be considered suspect until after changes in the diet of the adults are confirmed to not be effective. It turns out that anurans either cannot process beta carotene into active vitamin A (retinyl/retinol) or convert it poorly. Until relatively recently the only options for supplementing vitamin A to the frogs was via beta carotene in the supplements which resulted in pretty much all of the frogs being deficient in vitamin A. Insufficient vitamin A provisioning in the eggs results in improper formation of the limb buds (and can result in deformation of the pronephros which was the source of tadpoles that bloated in the egg or retained fluids post hatching) and thus SLS. As the hind limb buds develop along the same lines as the front limbs (emergence is different) rearing at too cold or too warm a temperature should be expected to result in hind limb deformations as well as the front limbs. 

RO is not an issue for tadpoles unless there is damage to the pronephros and subsequently the kidneys as while they can lose some ions to the water, they can also actively scavenge the ions back up from the solution. (see discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html). 

To date the only really confirmed water issue that resulted in SLS was in several zoological and aquarium institutions whose incoming water source was treated with phosphate to reduce corrosion and then the incoming water was filtered over carbon to remove the chlorine. The carbon leached additional phosphate into the water and the really high levels of phosphates resulted in deformation of the limbs that are consistent with SLS. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Jonw (Jun 28, 2016)

Encyclia said:


> Hi Jon,
> I agree that it doesn't look too good :-(
> 
> How do you supplement the adults? This sort of thing can be indicative of malnutrition of the parents. Can you tell us about what you are using for supplementation and how often you are doing it?
> ...


Hi Mark, I'm using Exo terra multi vitamin and calcium powder from a reptile shop. I feed my frogs daily and I dust they every feeding alternating between vitamin and calcium. The first batch of tads came out well. I have 3 healthy froglets. But it seems like the second batch of morphing tads have sls issues. It's all 3 of the second batch. I think it's sls now because the froglet doesn't seem to be using its front legs. But its hind legs are powerful tho.


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## Jonw (Jun 28, 2016)

Ed said:


> A lot of the old "causes" of SLS should be considered suspect until after changes in the diet of the adults are confirmed to not be effective. It turns out that anurans either cannot process beta carotene into active vitamin A (retinyl/retinol) or convert it poorly. Until relatively recently the only options for supplementing vitamin A to the frogs was via beta carotene in the supplements which resulted in pretty much all of the frogs being deficient in vitamin A. Insufficient vitamin A provisioning in the eggs results in improper formation of the limb buds (and can result in deformation of the pronephros which was the source of tadpoles that bloated in the egg or retained fluids post hatching) and thus SLS. As the hind limb buds develop along the same lines as the front limbs (emergence is different) rearing at too cold or too warm a temperature should be expected to result in hind limb deformations as well as the front limbs.
> 
> RO is not an issue for tadpoles unless there is damage to the pronephros and subsequently the kidneys as while they can lose some ions to the water, they can also actively scavenge the ions back up from the solution. (see discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html).
> 
> ...


It could be vit A issues. Idk if there's vit A in my dusting powders but My eggs are 80% bad most of the time. Btw what's a good brand of vit to use which includes vit A? Or how can I supply my frogs with vit A?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Jonw said:


> Hi Mark, I'm using Exo terra multi vitamin and calcium powder from a reptile shop. I feed my frogs daily and I dust they every feeding alternating between vitamin and calcium. The first batch of tads came out well. I have 3 healthy froglets. But it seems like the second batch of morphing tads have sls issues. It's all 3 of the second batch. I think it's sls now because the froglet doesn't seem to be using its front legs. But its hind legs are powerful tho.


Ok, I don't know very much about Exo Terra's brand of vitamins. Does anyone know if this brand has the correct form of Vitamin A for dart frogs? What I can tell you is what I do for my supplementation and I have never had SLS. I know a lot of other folks on this board also supplement this way with good success, too.

I use Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding (every other day for me). Every approximately 2-4 weeks, I swap out the Calcium Plus and use Repashy Vitamin A, instead. I do the same thing with Repashy SuperPig, but I suspect that part is not 100% necessary. If I haven't run out of any of my supplements by the end of 6 months after opening them, I throw them away and buy new ones again. Any open supplements should be kept in the refrigerator. If they are allowed to warm up, it can reduce their effectiveness. I have thrown supplements away before because I left them out of the refrigerator too long.

As for the pattern you describe (ok tads/frogs then SLS), this is exactly what I would expect if it's a nutrient deficiency. The rate limiting nutrient (I am guessing Vitamin A) may have been used up with that first clutch of eggs and became limiting before the second clutch. 

Finally, I will encourage you to stick with the new supplementation for a while, if you choose to go this route. A nutrient deficit like this could take a while (a couple of months?) to correct. I have never had SLS but I have had nutrient issues before (evidenced by many bad clutches of eggs in a row) and that took a couple of months of the right supplementation before I got good eggs.

I wish you luck in getting this problem taken care of. I am sorry you are having to deal with it.

Mark


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Mark's reply is more than enough to convince anyone but I'll add that during my first attempt at a "dry season" I implemented every measure possible to get my frogs to stop breeding and take a break. One of the measures was to reduce feeding - which also reduces supplement intake.

My frogs went slowly from about 95% fertility rate to less than 50%. Clutch sizes were also about half the normal size. I started feeling bad for my frogs and decided if they weren't going to stop then I'd go back to normal feeding and noticed a huge improvement pretty quickly.

Of course this isn't conclusive but definitely showed me that proper supplements (I use the same as Mark except the superpig) and heavy feeding is one of the most important parts of successful breeding.

Good luck! You can get Repashy products from Josh's Frogs or NEHERP


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Encyclia said:


> Ok, I don't know very much about Exo Terra's brand of vitamins.


Beta carotene 90,000 mcg. 




Encyclia said:


> Does anyone know if this brand has the correct form of Vitamin A for dart frogs?


Repashy products and Dendrocare are two that I'm sure of at this time. 


To the OP, you need to switch to one of the brands that has retinyl acetate or retinyl palmitate (active forms of vitamin A). At this time based solely on anecdotal evidence, simply switching to one of the supplements that contains preformed vitamin A may not correct the issue with SLS as the animals are depleated in their stores of the vitamin and continued reproduction slows the replenishment of those reserves. Keep in mind that vitamin A is important for a number of systems such as mucous production (deficiencies can prevent the animal from being able to capture food (short-tongue syndrome) as well as reducing their immune system ability to cope with disease so you want to address this fairly quickly. Repashy sells a powdered vitamin A product that is used in addition to the regular supplement (regardless if you choose Dendrocare or Repashy Calcium plus) at a frequency of one to 4 times a month or you can purchase a dry form of active retinol and grind it and dust the feeders one to four times a month. (Its easier to uses the Repashy vitamin A as both will provide you with more than you will ever need). 

The use of additional superpig in the rotation isn't a bad idea and in fact can be beneficial as it not only helps with color but the carotenoids are also used to provision the yolk of the eggs. (Too often people think it is really of only value as a "color enhancer" but carotenoids have more than one usage in amphibians). 

I always suggest getting the freshest source of the vitamins regardless of the brand for Repashy products you can order them direct from them, while Dendrocare can be found at a couple of the vendors on this site like Black Jungle. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Jonw (Jun 28, 2016)

Ed said:


> Beta carotene 90,000 mcg.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just purchased repashy vit A as well as calcium plus. Vit A shld be used 4 times a month? Should I dust my flies between calcium and vit A alternating days instead? 

Anyway thanks for your advices they have been very clear!


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## Jonw (Jun 28, 2016)

Encyclia said:


> Ok, I don't know very much about Exo Terra's brand of vitamins. Does anyone know if this brand has the correct form of Vitamin A for dart frogs? What I can tell you is what I do for my supplementation and I have never had SLS. I know a lot of other folks on this board also supplement this way with good success, too.
> 
> I use Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding (every other day for me). Every approximately 2-4 weeks, I swap out the Calcium Plus and use Repashy Vitamin A, instead. I do the same thing with Repashy SuperPig, but I suspect that part is not 100% necessary. If I haven't run out of any of my supplements by the end of 6 months after opening them, I throw them away and buy new ones again. Any open supplements should be kept in the refrigerator. If they are allowed to warm up, it can reduce their effectiveness. I have thrown supplements away before because I left them out of the refrigerator too long.
> 
> ...


Thanks mate! Thanks for sharing this is really important to me! Hehe


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jonw said:


> I just purchased repashy vit A as well as calcium plus. Vit A shld be used 4 times a month? Should I dust my flies between calcium and vit A alternating days instead?


You may not need to dust the flies more than once to twice a month with the straight vitamin A dust but you should use the calcium plus at all of the other feedings. There has been a very large reduction in the cases of SLS reported to the board since the link to vitamin A deficiency was determined so we are relying more on anecdotal evidence on the frequency of using the straight vitamin A and the recommendations put forth in the literature on amphibian nutrition. 

some comments 

Ed


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## evolvstll77 (Feb 17, 2007)

jknight said:


> I've never heard of temperature having an impact on the development of SLS..
> 
> Can you provide a link on where you read this?


Sorry should have been more specific. Temperature impact development. Did not say towards sls. Size and speed of development are directly affected. My bad with that one

My experience with distilled vs spring water. At the time I was using Eds fly meat media. Same supplements. Same feeders with springs and rice flour beetles. Cannot remember if I was getting the tad food through eds or joshs. The only change was the water and the sls went away. From that point on I only used Spring water and never had another issue with sls. Over the years my ff media. Supplements. Tad food.


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