# How many varaderos in a 20 high vert



## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

i have a 20 gallon high and am wondering how many varaderos can fit in it nicely.


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

I'd go with just a pair in a 20 gallon high vert. That is a great size for a pair of imis. Lots of broms and they'll be happy campers producing tads and froglets for you.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Veradero are an Imitator frog and typically Imitator do best in groups.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

No offense but if you have to ask the answer is zero.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I house 5 in a 18X18X18 terrarium. They get along well but they do eat each others eggs.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

fleshfrombone said:


> No offense but if you have to ask the answer is zero.


Yes but keeping zero in a 20 is not very satisfying nor enjoyable.
Vivlover you can easily keep a 1.2 trio in that size tank, or get 3-5 juvys and raise them out, when they become adults you can cut out 1 or 2. 
And let me add keep asking questions, just because some have no tolerance for it others will happily pass on the experiances they have had success with.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

FFB - He's only a kid and when I was 12, I had a lot of questions myself.



fleshfrombone said:


> No offense but if you have to ask the answer is zero.


vivlover - You just keep the questions coming. You are showing remarkable patience and willingness to research before you invest in your first darts. 

You'll spend about as much to buy a sexed pair as you will to get 4 or 5 juveniles. You'd probably enjoy watching them grow up and then you'd have a couple to trade or even set up a second viv. I'd suggest getting a group of juvis and then end up with either a pair or a 1.2 (1 male - 2 female) trio. Keep the questions coming. It's great to have kids interested in the hobby. I wish my 12-yo son was as interested in darts as you are.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

JimO said:


> FFB - He's only a kid and when I was 12, I had a lot of questions myself.


I didn't realize that, and at that age so did I. I also did my own research then asked questions.



markpulawski said:


> And let me add keep asking questions, just because some have no tolerance for it others will happily pass on the experiances they have had success with.


There's a difference between holding hands and spoon feeding and having no tolerance for questions. You know what I was getting at and I doubt the message was lost on him.

vivlover10 There are quite a few froggers in NY. When I first got started (around your age) a few concepts confused me and it clicked when I was able to see them in person. I would recommend joining a local dart frog club/society.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I agree, this is good advice. Talking to folks in person and seeing the vivs and frogs for yourself will make a big difference.


fleshfrombone said:


> vivlover10 There are quite a few froggers in NY. When I first got started (around your age) a few concepts confused me and it clicked when I was able to see them in person. I would recommend joining a local dart frog club/society.


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

I've heard from many people on these boards that imis tend to form monogamous pairs and actually tend to have dominance issues and problems with egg eating when kept in groups. So I'd still recommend sticking with a pair. Err on the side of giving your frogs the most room possible to behave normally. 5 frogs crammed into 20 gallons of space isn't the best living situation. A pair would be very happy in a tank like that and since imis are so bold you'll likely see them a lot.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Veradero are an Imitator frog and typically Imitator do best in groups.


I'm sorry, I must have been totally asleep when I posted that. I really meant to say "Imitator do best in groups *of 2*" As in a pair...1.1


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, and please,* DO* keep asking questions, Vivlover. One persons intolerance for learning is not the view of the vast majority here.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I agree all of these topics have been covered and a quick search will likely give you the answer you are looking for however many just want confirmation as to their intended plans. I too get annoyed when someone could find something easily looked up but they key is rather than post something negative, go with your 2nd response, positive info with a you could have found this note....easily done. Many times, no response is the best response.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

hmm I would go with a group if juv. I house 5 vera's in a 18X18X18 terrarium and they thrive. I even occationally find a froglet. Same goes for my intermedius. You could always thin the herd.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Geez, chill out will you. Some people ask simple questions to get to know others and engage people in conversation. Some people aren't even familiar with how to navigate a discussion forum in the first place. You don't have to answer them or even open the thread. No need to swear at people, especially a 12-yo kid.


fleshfrombone said:


> $%# &%$#, this board and it's search feature exist for a reason. If people are too lazy to do their own research then the &%[email protected] with them.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

The advice I would give a new hobbyist - especially a 12 year old, would be......start slow....get a 20 gallon vert kit or an exxo / Zoomed and a pair of frogs.

_A pair..._

I just do not see where "Get a group and pair down the odd frogs" and similar "group" advice is good here.......


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Its funny because some people will complain to use the search button and then others will complain for resurecting a old thread....Can't win when theres a jack arse on each side of the spectrum. 

Way to make new comers feel welcome. 

I agree with Phil on that one, even a exo terra would be a good starter. If you have the means perhaps try to obtain a probable pair that way theres not as much trial and error involved. Varadero's where my first Dart frogs and seem relatively easy to care for. I would recommend them for sure.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

D3monic said:


> Its funny because some people will complain to use the search button and then others will complain for resurecting a old thread....Can't win when theres a jack arse on each side of the spectrum.
> 
> Way to make new comers feel welcome.
> 
> I agree with Phil on that one, even a exo terra would be a good starter. If you have the means perhaps try to obtain a probable pair that way theres not as much trial and error involved. *Varadero's where my first Dart frogs and seem relatively easy to care for. I would recommend them for sure.*


I'd be careful recommending them to someone really young as first frog though, if you mess up and lose them, that's one expensive error. leucs/tincs/auratus would be a better choice, not only for ease of care but also because they cost less than half that much and are much more common/established in the hobby.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I agree with philsuma and tclipse vivlover. A 20-gallon high would be sufficient for a pair of the larger terrestrial frogs. They are more affordable as well. In this case, though, you'd want to set it up horizontally and have plenty of floor space. You could get a nice sexed pair of azureus, leucs, or auratus for less than $200. And, it would not be difficult to get them breeding. Part of the fun of keeping frogs, IMHO, is raising the tadpoles.

BTW - Please forgive the swearing and rude responses, and if you have any more "dumb" questions, you can send me as many PMs as you want. I have four sons and the youngest is 12, so I can relate. I don't want to see you subjected to any more public humiliation.


tclipse said:


> I'd be careful recommending them to someone really young as first frog though, if you mess up and lose them, that's one expensive error. leucs/tincs/auratus would be a better choice, not only for ease of care but also because they cost less than half that much and are much more common/established in the hobby.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

If I was out of line earlier I apologize, my last comment which was removed due to whatever (some people can't handle adult conversation apparently and still need parental figures to police them), was out of frustration from people blowing my original comment out of proportion. 

vivlover, you should get whatever frogs you like but be aware these are expensive animals with specific needs and due diligence is the name of the game. Independent research is critical and when you get stuck somewhere along the way then fire off questions. I'd hate to see you get discouraged in the hobby because you spent money on your first dart vivarium and your $60 plus each frogs died. Personally when I was your age I spent over a year researching. This site and community didn't exist then. I wanted to jump right in as well but I'm glad I didn't. You see what I'm getting at?


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## qiksilver5 (Jan 9, 2007)

fleshfrombone said:


> If I was out of line earlier I apologize, my last comment which was removed due to whatever (some people can't handle adult conversation apparently and still need parental figures to police them), was out of frustration from people blowing my original comment out of proportion.
> 
> vivlover, you should get whatever frogs you like but be aware these are expensive animals with specific needs and due diligence is the name of the game. Independent research is critical and when you get stuck somewhere along the way then fire off questions. I'd hate to see you get discouraged in the hobby because you spent money on your first dart vivarium and your $60 plus each frogs died. Personally when I was your age I spent over a year researching. This site and community didn't exist then. I wanted to jump right in as well but I'm glad I didn't. You see what I'm getting at?


If you'd like to talk about adult conversations then don't start out with a temper tantrum. I understand where you're coming from, as it frustrated me as well that no one does their own research anymore (ball python people are the WORST with this), but relax. If it pisses you off, ignore it.

That being said, you have good info to give, as you did right there, just stop getting so angry, it's the internet after all.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

For a year and a half I have been doing my research and am now thinking of getting some. I wanted to get leucs first then I saw varaderos and now I am doing research on them to see if they are better.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

qiksilver5 said:


> If you'd like to talk about adult conversations then don't start out with a temper tantrum. I understand where you're coming from, as it frustrated me as well that no one does their own research anymore (ball python people are the WORST with this), but relax. If it pisses you off, ignore it.
> 
> That being said, you have good info to give, as you did right there, just stop getting so angry, it's the internet after all.


Correcting people when they are out of line is not a temper tantrum.


Luecs are much more forgiving of mistakes and they are great frogs, but varaderos are hard to beat in the color and interesting behavior department. Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

vivlover10 said:


> For a year and a half I have been doing my research and am now thinking of getting some. I wanted to get leucs first then I saw varaderos and now I am doing research on them to see if they are *better*.


Doing research and putting up wanted ads are two different things entirely  Also, no one frog is 'better' than another... except for tincs/auratus/leucs being 'better' for beginners.

Do what you want, but realize that the people who are giving these recommendations are more experienced than you and are looking out for you by giving you good advice. If you start with a beginner frog, and that goes well for a few months, then there's nothing stopping you from getting varaderos also. Trying to "walk before you can crawl" can mess you up pretty good in this hobby. 

We're just trying to make sure that the frogs get what's best for them, and also that you don't lose your first frogs due to a newbie mistake and then get discouraged. Jumping straight to Step 2 is possible, but starting with Step 1 can save you a lot of time, money, and grief and is the *better* choice.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. I think I should start with leucs. Get the grout fly thing and good to go. One question vert or horizontal?


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

I spelled fruit fly wierd


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## bobzarry (Mar 2, 2005)

One thing to consider is that Varadero are tiny. Luecs are a much larger frog then a Varadero. In fact I would say My Varadero are about the size of a hind leg on a luec. Mine seem to hide most of the time also. Luecs are definitely a bolder frog that will be out and about most of the day. And I bet as being your first frogs you would want something your going to see most of the time.


Guess I was typing this just as you were posting your decision.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I love leucs! Mine are out and about all the time. 

I think they mostly like horizontal but will also use vertical space. That makes them a great frog for making a really cool viv. You can do a horizontal one with climbing spaces for them. Maybe some ledges and caves and branches. Keep us posted as you do your build.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I agree with Frogface, if you are thinking about Luecs, go with a horizontal, but get some ledges and/or wood in there for them too. Luecs will appreciate the chance to climb around now and then.

After you have done luecs for a while and are considering Veradero, you are also welcome to PM me with whatever questions you may have. Imitators have been my favorite frogs for 9 years now and I am currently housing 4 Veradero imitators with another bloodline on the way. I have an 11 year old son and am patient with all his questions. He is on the board all the time here. I'm just glad he hasn't been treated the way you have.
Doug


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

To tell you the truth It was nothing compared to school. In school people make fun of me of having a thing for frogs and being a frogger-in-progress.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Just don't tell the kids at school that they lose their poisons in captivity. Then bring one to school!

Just a joke people. Leave your froggies safe at home in their viv.


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## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

I keep my Leucs in a 29 vert. They only come to the floor when they eat. But like everyone else said, I would make a 20g tank horizontal with lots of ledges and climbing space. We have already talked, I never would have thought you were 12! Wow, that is awesome! Since I'm not that far from you I would not mind coming to help you with anything you need help with.

Be proud of being a frogger!!!! I get made fun of too till people come over and see them!! They ALWAYS want one!


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

vivlover10 said:


> To tell you the truth It was nothing compared to school. In school people make fun of me of having a thing for frogs and being a frogger-in-progress.


If people are giving you a hard time at school because you like poison dart frogs then that's their failure not yours. They can't or won't do it themselves so they'll try and bring you down. The best way to combat this is to laugh at them and show them their ignorant opinions have no effect on you.

Like Megan said, when they see them they'll want them as well.


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## NVEOUS (Oct 6, 2010)

People look at me weird when I say that I have a thing for frogs as well so don't take it to heart and I just turned 22. I've always loved reptiles and I saw a Red Eyed Tree Frog in the pet store I work at and had to have it. Now I have 3 of them and I'm doing all of my research on Darts because they are my next frog. Just like others have said they will want one as soon as they see them. 

Don't let others get you down and uninterested in the hobby because some people don't think its "cool" do your own thing and do whatever makes you happy.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I have always had a thing for frogs and got my first (and only) frog tattoo when I was 12. Every body is into something at any age...be it bicycles, fish, frogs ect. Atleast its not playing suck box all day like half the other kids. Not that theres anythign wrong with that either.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I work in a stuffy government office. I kept my frog thing a secret for a while. Then I started making everyone look at my pics. I even brought my 4 baby auratus to the office, since I picked them up at lunch and couldn't get them home until after work. Everyone had to admit they were pretty darn cute 

So yea, they all think I'm weird but I don't care. I got frogs and they don't.


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

vivlover10 said:


> To tell you the truth It was nothing compared to school. In school people make fun of me of having a thing for frogs and being a frogger-in-progress.


Welcome to the world young one--I'm 54 and it's still going on.


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## DougP (Feb 9, 2010)

vivlover10 said:


> To tell you the truth It was nothing compared to school. In school people make fun of me of having a thing for frogs and being a frogger-in-progress.


Don't worry about the bone heads that don't get it. Let your interest lead to a cool gig like being a biologist. I'm lucky I work at a college, in the science department no less. Everyone wants to come over and see my set-up when they find out that I keep frogs.

Doug


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

As other people have said, don't let rude kids like that bother you. Never do something or not do something because of other people. If you like reptiles and frogs then don't listen to what any other person tries to say about you. Everyone has different likes and dislikes. I'm 16 and kind of had the same thing before, best thing is just ignore them.


vivlover10 said:


> To tell you the truth It was nothing compared to school. In school people make fun of me of having a thing for frogs and being a frogger-in-progress.


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

vivlover10 said:


> To tell you the truth It was nothing compared to school. In school people make fun of me of having a thing for frogs and being a frogger-in-progress.



I'm an adult and I get teased about being into frogs so don't worry. People seem to judge before actually seeing them

Vivlover since we're both on the Island if you want you can have one or both of your parents bring you to my house and I'll show you my frogs and setups and you can ask all you want. I'll even fill your parents in on costs since they are probably going to be paying for it. I don't have Varaderos, but a few other thumbs, various tincs, Auratus, Leucs


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't really care about selling my frogs, so frankly, if these will be your first frog, I would get something you'll see more often and get some enjoyment from. Simply put, imitators vary in their boldness - it's quite possible you'll hardly ever see your Varaderos, and they certainly won't interact with you aside from coming out to eat. Something larger and bolder, such as a tinctorius, will always be visible and they even develop "begging" behavior once they get used to you. I really like Ranitomeya but I don't think I would enjoy this hobby as much as I do if I didn't keep a few pairs of tinctorius and my terribilis. I've never kept leucomelas so I can't comment directly on that species, but keep in mind that larger frogs tend to be bolder.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

And this is the reason I love everyone on this forum... If ya wanna know something Vivlover I am from a little town in Florida called Apopka, I know I know it doesnt seem like it would be one =P, anywho I use to be the kid that everyone would call on if they had a reptile issue or w/e and everyone talked bad about me because I loved reptiles (and aracanids though I hate them now). It didnt stop me from wanting to protect any reptile. Now being 21 and going to college for Landscape Architecture and Residental Architecture I plan on implementing what I have learned and seen in this hobby even though I have only be working at it for a year now. So when people are rude to you because they think its funny or silly (like my girlfriend did, though now she loves my tanks because they are works of art even with shrooms growing in them) then don't let it bug ya. Kids are jerks and will forever because they know little and rather then do what your doing and trying to learn about something new they resent you for it because they know that in there heart they are to scared to just try something new.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

johnc said:


> I don't really care about selling my frogs, so frankly, if these will be your first frog, I would get something you'll see more often and get some enjoyment from. Simply put, imitators vary in their boldness - it's quite possible you'll hardly ever see your Varaderos, and they certainly won't interact with you aside from coming out to eat. Something larger and bolder, such as a tinctorius, will always be visible and they even develop "begging" behavior once they get used to you. I really like Ranitomeya but I don't think I would enjoy this hobby as much as I do if I didn't keep a few pairs of tinctorius and my terribilis. I've never kept leucomelas so I can't comment directly on that species, but keep in mind that larger frogs tend to be bolder.


Well said. That's an honest and straight forward sentiment right there.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

johnc said:


> I don't really care about selling my frogs, so frankly, if these will be your first frog, I would get something you'll see more often and get some enjoyment from. Simply put, imitators vary in their boldness - it's quite possible you'll hardly ever see your Varaderos, and they certainly won't interact with you aside from coming out to eat. Something larger and bolder, such as a tinctorius, will always be visible and they even develop "begging" behavior once they get used to you. I really like Ranitomeya but I don't think I would enjoy this hobby as much as I do if I didn't keep a few pairs of tinctorius and my terribilis. I've never kept leucomelas so I can't comment directly on that species, but keep in mind that larger frogs tend to be bolder.


Yep....what a great summary of frog behaviour.

agree...most thumbs and even pumilio will NOT have the begging food response that you will almost always get with Phylos (Terribs), Tincs and Leucs.

Nicely put John.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

The best thing you can do IMO, is not say anything else about it at school until you get your frogs, and then post an album with a few nice pics of them & your tank on facebook or wherever. Instead of being bugged by it, use it as motivation to make your viv look effin wicked... and then nobody will have a thing to say about it.



D3monic said:


> I have always had a thing for frogs and *got my first (and only) frog tattoo* when I was 12. Every body is into something at any age...be it bicycles, fish, frogs ect. Atleast its not playing suck box all day like half the other kids. Not that theres anythign wrong with that either.


Mine was a koi... what can I say, I got tired of all of the water changes


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## Abuxton45 (Jan 30, 2010)

im 17, almost 18, and most people think my frogs look sick.But if anyone makes fun of you just ignore em because they only do it for a response. (i would know i make fun of my friends all the time )


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## Austin P (May 13, 2009)

"johnc" Is very right about the begging, I know my Leucs are hungry when you can see them pawing at the door. My Leucs are probably one of my favorite type of frogs, they are always out and about and have a very unique behaviour. They were the first frogs I got when I was 14 years old and now Im 16 and I still can just sit there and watch 'em. I also keep Veradero's and they are a very cool species although you will definatley want to build up to them as people said. And dont worry about what anybody else says about frogs, I still get it and well, Im pretty sure this was stated but it is definatley theyre loss.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Just want to say thanks for everyone's time and patience in encouraging Vivlover10's passion. He tends to get very intense. You've given us lots to think about and some great information and we appreciate getting the benefit of all your experience. We'll contact some local enthusiasts and go see them in person. -Vivlover's mom


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Be careful, vivlover's mom. You're going to want some frogs of your own once you go see them in person.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

agreed with frogface. I took my gf to a friends house out here she saw his setup and now I am getting auratas with my tincs lol. Though I dont mind I love all the frogs im obtaining =P


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