# Loss of a Oophaga pumilio: What did I do wrong?



## domitron (Mar 26, 2008)

I recently purchased a pair of Nancys from a good frog guy (I'll keep the name anonymous). These Nancys appeared to be in excellent health. One was much larger and older. The breeder I purchased them from said it was most likely a female. The other was younger and much smaller.

Here is a bit about the vivarium: my vivarium is maintained at 75 to 85F at all times (cooler at night). There are plenty of bromeliads, film canisters, coconut hut, etc. Humidity is maintained via an ultrasonic that turns on for a few minutes every hour. Internal air circulation is maintained via a small PC fan that is well protected from the frogs by a screen hot glued over the blades. I also directly mist the bromeliads to stimulate a heavy rain such that they fill up each day. I feed once or twice a day, usually dusting the flies with various vitamin powders. This style of vivarium and frog keeping has NEVER failed me before, but I did try something new prior to leaving on my Christmas vacation.

I purchased a rather wild moss on Ebay. The seller said it was "NorthWest Sheet Moss, grown right here in my own garden~ no insecticides or fertilizer what so ever! Safe for your terrarium critters or what ever (I use for my own Dart Frog vivarium)". Since I wanted to experiment with a different ground cover rather than leaf litter, it sounded perfect. When I put the moss in, I was surprised how tall it was. It was at least 2" deep in parts! I found that the little Nancy was spending a lot of its time inside it, but it never seemed stuck and was always going in and out of it. The fatter Nancy did not fancy leaving the bromeliad much, so it seemed to stay away from the moss except when hunting for flies. I never observed the tiny Nancy eating, but I never observed the larger one either - although they did seem to be in a hunting mode sometimes. Presumably they were eating well enough, though, as the bigger one just kept getting fatter. 

I went on a one week vacation. The flies were allowed to flow into the vivarium through a tiny hole in a fly culture I put in the vivarium. Temperature, humidity, light cycle, etc. were all kept the same as before. I have went on such vacations many times with other species of frogs without trouble, but when I returned home the smaller Nancy was no where to be found. Later I found him dead under the moss!!! I am not sure if it got stuck in there or if it was just weak and was hiding to die. 

Now if there is one thing that people know about me its that I seldom lose an animal of any sort. Dart frogs are relatively easy to keep compared to some of the exotic other things I maintain, so I was shocked that my beautiful Nancy died in my absence. 

I am just so sad about all of this. I always wanted a pair of Nancys from almost the first time I saw them five years ago. Now that I was given the opportunity, I feel I failed somehow, yet I don't know what I did wrong even. I wanted to breed these beautiful frogs as I've done with others. Indeed I don't even like to keep frogs unless they are in pairs, but who knows when I'll get another. And if I cannot learn from this mistake, then what kind of frog keeper can I be?

Has anyone else had something like this happen? I have since removed the moss for fear it caused the death in some way and replaced it with a far superior type of moss, but has anyone else had a frog get caught in moss before? Is this even possible?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Sux....I know..

Without a necroposy, even educated guesses aren't gonna cut it here.

There is always some added degree of stress with Pumilio when moved or transfered, I've found, more so than with other darts. 

Two things......the week you were away - you will not know what "may have happened" when you were gone.

and....the moss. I'm not a big fan of mosses and I just would not mail order some unless it was from a trusted fellow frogger that I know.


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

Not sure what killed your pum but I do know that pumilio do way better with a thick layer of leaf litter, moss isn't ideal as pumilio tank ground cover.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

domitron said:


> I
> 
> 
> I went on a one week vacation. The flies were allowed to flow into the vivarium through a tiny hole in a fly culture I put in the vivarium. Temperature, humidity, light cycle, etc. were all kept the same as before. I have went on such vacations many times with other species of frogs without trouble, but when I returned home the smaller Nancy was no where to be found. Later I found him dead under the moss!!! I am not sure if it got stuck in there or if it was just weak and was hiding to die.


Is there any ventilation from outside the enclosure to the inside of the enclosure? Is there any venting at the bottom of the tank? How large was the fruit fly culture and at what stage of production was it? 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

good call Ed.....Co2 buildup?

CSI


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> good call Ed.....Co2 buildup?
> 
> CSI


That is what I'm wondering. Are the fans on during the night as well? 

Ed


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Thats a great shame, really is.

I'm interested in knowing what could of caused this also...

The c02 build up theory sounds very plausible.

Take care, 

Richie


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed said:


> That is what I'm wondering. Are the fans on during the night as well?
> 
> Ed


and add the occurrence of high temps....up to 85F.

Very possible.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry for your loss. I lost a Cayo Nancy a few weeks ago. It was a tragic "lid squishing" that took me a few days to get over (now I count everybody before going into the tanks). At least I knew what caused it!!

Take care, Richard.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

How old was the smaller pumilio? Many breeders don't sell them less than 6 months, or when they are nearly adult size, because many fail to thrive when sold young.


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## dort (Jul 10, 2009)

You said they were a recent purchase - how long was the viv set up beforehand? I have a pair (I hope) and I think tons of springtails are extremely important to their health. I think this would be even more important with a young frog. 

Mine mostly gorge on springtails and merely pick at flies. The male will eat flies more readily than the female, too. A few weeks ago there were so many springs that when I misted heavily, the leaves (~2" leaf litter layer) would have pools of water filled with springs. Now, I hardly see any, so I'm keeping a 10 gallon just filled with leaves and springs to rotate springtail-coated leaves in and out. 

Hope the other one is okay


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## domitron (Mar 26, 2008)

The vivarium is very well ventilated and air circulates well. However if the frog got caught under the moss, there could have been something happening under it that did suffocate the frog. The moss was terribly thick and the frog was actually UNDER the root system it seemed.

The pumilio was, if I recall, about 6 months old or less. It was quite small to begin with, and it never seemed to settle in like the other older, larger one. The other one is doing fantastic now and is plump as can be. I just need to move on I guess and get another male later. Still I'm going to take it slow and make sure everything is okay in there for the next month or so before moving on.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Air circulation within the tank and air circulation between the outside of the tank and the inside of the tank are two different items. Many people severly limit the air circulation between the outside and inside of the tank to keep humidity high, in addition, enclosures set-up in typical aquariums can be difficult to get sufficient air exchange between the outside of the cage and the inside of the cage. (Not saying this is the case for you but other people will also read the thread). 

In the past (this has changed as rearing techniques have improved in general) there was a high mortality in pumilo metamorphs under six months and very high in those under three months. A number of breeders have been able to address this in different ways leading to a much better survivorship post six months. 

Ed


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

domitron said:


> The vivarium is very well ventilated and air circulates well. However if the frog got caught under the moss, there could have been something happening under it that did suffocate the frog. The moss was terribly thick and the frog was actually UNDER the root system it seemed.


How was the vivarium set up? Lots of hiding places? Isn't it possible the little guy was just looking for another hide and got smothered? I seem to recall hearing some stories about this happening with wet paper towels.

Either way, I am sorry to hear about your loss.


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## DKOOISTRA (May 28, 2009)

Correct me if im wrong, i believe co2 is denser than oxygen, so it tends to settle, making co2 concentrations greater at the bottom of your tank than higher up? i have had a tink though get caught in one of the vines in my tank before, he recovered, but it took a while, so depending on the root system underneath...
derek


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