# Easy to sell species



## Dartness (Mar 6, 2020)

Hi there, 

Currently, I'm letting my first vivarium grow out, and I'm planning on adding Red Galacts in a few months. I would enjoy breeding, but I'm also not interested in keeping any of the froglets. I'm afraid I'm going to be stuck with a dozen froglets and no one to buy. I'm not interested in this hobby for the money (although it would be nice to make some extra cash to buy more frogs!), but are there species easier to sell then others?


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Red Galcs aren’t an easy beginner frog to breed. If you get some breeding and can ship, I’m sure you’d be able to sell some. Local sales may a little harder. If you don’t want to raise froglets then you could sell the tads.


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

Even just googling ‘Adelphobates galactonotus’ the third result was this thread. 

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/adelphobates/57790-adelphobates-galactonotus-intermediate.html

I’m not sure if you care about legal destinations but that’s the first issue about breeding them. Second, they’re not easy to breed.


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

DPfarr said:


> Even just googling ‘Adelphobates galactonotus’ the third result was this thread.
> 
> https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/adelphobates/57790-adelphobates-galactonotus-intermediate.html
> 
> I’m not sure if you care about legal destinations but that’s the first issue about breeding them. Second, they’re not easy to breed.


While mostly true, pretty much all colors, except for blue are accepted in the hobby and no one bats an eye at them or questions their legality. Some of the big businesses in the Hobby sell glacs.


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

If Ed still posts, I’d use his word. He went through USFWS about the issue of them. 

https://www.fws.gov/irm/bpim/docs/FY2018_FOIA_LOG_10_1_16_to_2_28_18.xlsx


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Believe it or not, the "beginner" species like leucomelas, azureus, and some auratus have been the most consistently in-demand frogs since I got in to the hobby. Sure, there are "grail" frogs, and species that become suddenly en vogue, but for someone just starting out, the best bet are the cheapies. You can make your own decision about galacts, but I don't keep any Brazilian frogs myself for the reasons listed above.


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## Dartness (Mar 6, 2020)

Okay, thanks for the information guys. Honestly, if they don't breed, I wouldn't be too disappointed. I was originally just looking for a display animal. My sole reason for choosing Red Galacts was because they're red (my favorite color lol).


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

If frogs are kept correct and provided with the basics they need, they will ALWAYS breed. 🙂


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tijl said:


> If frogs are kept correct and provided with the basics they need, they will ALWAYS breed. 🙂


I don't like this statement. I think that it might be true if you have perfect knowledge of what "correct" and "the basics" mean, it might be true for most species, but I don't think such a broad statement is true for the majority of frog keepers. I bet if you took a survey of experienced frog keepers, most would have certain tanks that they wish were producing but are not. That is certainly true of me.

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Your probably right my the statement is not broad enough.

But I am sure your tank, (micro)climate or feeding/supplementation, lichting,.. is not on point or 100% correct for the frogs that inhabit that tank. So this means the basics are not correct.. Every species of frog should have an individual caresheet but this is not realy the case in our hobby..

If people took that survei, Iam positive that 90% of the 'experienced' breeders FAIL when it comes to providing the frogs realy what they need. This is why some are not able to produce offspring of certain species or other breeding problems.. 

Also when is someone an experienced breeder? I've seen people with big cash and no experience at all breeding Histrionica, but they are not difficult frogs at all imo.. Just expensive one's.. Still everyone looks up to those breeders? I've seen people breed hundreds or thousands of E.Anthonyi, but they have no clue what they are doing.. Other people that are 20+ years in the hobby still seem to think all frogs are oophaga and feed their tadpoles.. 
There is also a very big difference between 'experienced' breeders in how long their frogs live, amount of offspring,... Some people never keep a dry season for example. There is just too much incorrect information and approaches in this hobby.. Almost every dart frog is kept in the same way and setup.. We could not be more wrong.

We must also not forget that some 'basics' are almost impossible or can never be created in captivity. For example Andinobates living 18m up in Trees during dry season and climbing up to 30+m during rain season imediatly comes too mind.. we cannot build tanks this size..


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

Tijl said:


> 18m up in Trees during dry season and climbing up to 30+m during rain season imediatly comes too mind.. we cannot build tanks this size..


This just got me thinking about how much fun it would be to try to do it now...


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Tijl said:


> I've seen people with big cash and no experience at all breeding Histrionica, but they are not difficult frogs at all imo.. Just expensive one's.. Still everyone looks up to those breeders?


I'm inclined to say otherwise. I've seen you have some good luck (and bad) with histos, including the adult male bullseye that you lost shortly after receiving him. I've had similar experiences. Some groups do great, some are f'ing touchy and require daily assessments and advanced treatments, and the only reason that we indulge them is because they are so pretty...$. Sure, you can drop some serious coin on whatever the latest Tesoros frogs are, or some gems laundered through EU, and MAYBE they will breed for you, but the people that are consistently popping out froglets from multiple species/locales of large obligates usually know a thing or two. Me, I'm just bumbling through it.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I don't see how most Histrionica differ from Pumilio or other 'easier' to keep frogs. The care for these is quite similar. But I understand what you are saying tho.

Unfortunatly I lost other frogs aswell in the past for the same reason I lost my bull male.. I explained in my topic and was something I could expect when purchasing that particular frog and we made a very good agreement for this. Unfortunatly handeling and transport by some people is not always what it should be..

I'm not basing my statement of these frogs only on my experience with them, I have other friends who keep Histrionica and who have good or better results. Some have more Trouble breeding Tinctorius than they have oophaga.. 
Unfortunatly most breeders keep their 'secret to succes' to them. I know some are able to breed them on other than feeder eggs. But if they told what they use, they are giving away the duck with the golden eggs.. I don't mind sharing everything, I think it is better for the futures of the frogs to do so. 

But again, I am sure some locality of Histrionica or Sylvatica are harder too breed than others. There is a reason some inhabitat the highlands and others the lowlands.. And I will always stand by the though of every individual needs individual care.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tijl said:


> Your probably right my the statement is not broad enough.
> 
> But I am sure your tank, (micro)climate or feeding/supplementation, lichting,.. is not on point or 100% correct for the frogs that inhabit that tank. So this means the basics are not correct.. Every species of frog should have an individual caresheet but this is not realy the case in our hobby..
> 
> ...


I'm still not buying this. I think there is more variability in individual frogs than you are allowing for and there are so many variables in how we keep frogs that different keepers can have varying levels of success. Even in the same tank, different frogs will behave differently. This behavioral variability can certainly translate into breeding preferences requiring different approaches. If you can't even rely on frogs in the same tank (many of which are siblings and raised together) to behave in a similar way, how can you say that all frogs of a given species/morph/whatever will have the exact same breeding demands? Also, I think there are more factors that go into how we keep our tanks than anyone can keep track of. Even if you document every single factor you can think of and publish those so that others can also use those, there are still a host of other factors that the frogs are exposed to in their tanks. My frogs respond to the weather outside, for one thing. That is guaranteed to be different for you and me. That could be the difference between one person's success and another person's failure.

There maybe a spectrum we are talking about here and I am not willing to go as far toward one end of it as you are. I am certain you are right about a lot of people just not keeping specific frogs in the way that will maximize their chance to breed. I would even go so far as to say that this is the case for the majority of instances where people are having trouble breeding. This is at least partly because we as a hobby are not to the point where we know with certainty what the perfect list of factors for each frog is. I also think that you tend to be way too dogmatic in implying that what has worked for you will definitely work for 100% of other people if they can just duplicate things well enough. I think there is more variability in frogs than you are allowing for. I am glad you have been so successful in breeding your frogs. I also think that you will change your mind on this when you end up with frogs that just won't breed no matter how hard you try. 

I will say that maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying, Tijl. If that's the case, I apologize ahead of time.

Mark


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

I had a 1.2 trio of leucs for a while. Healthy, active, kept the same as all my other frogs - many of which breed regularly. They never bred for me in about a year of having them. I let them go to a local friend, and literally days after he had them home he found a clutch of eggs. They've been consistently breeding for him ever since.

I think there are a lot of variables that we understand, and many that we don't - when it comes to successful breeding. I'm in the same boat with Mark on frog individuality - mostly when it comes to being bold or shy. I think most people lump a genus, species or local too easily into stereotypes, and forget that the frogs are individuals and can have very individual tendencies.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> I'm still not buying this. I think there is more variability in individual frogs than you are allowing for and there are so many variables in how we keep frogs that different keepers can have varying levels of success. Even in the same tank, different frogs will behave differently. This behavioral variability can certainly translate into breeding preferences requiring different approaches. If you can't even rely on frogs in the same tank (many of which are siblings and raised together) to behave in a similar way, how can you say that all frogs of a given species/morph/whatever will have the exact same breeding demands? Also, I think there are more factors that go into how we keep our tanks than anyone can keep track of. Even if you document every single factor you can think of and publish those so that others can also use those, there are still a host of other factors that the frogs are exposed to in their tanks. My frogs respond to the weather outside, for one thing. That is guaranteed to be different for you and me. That could be the difference between one person's success and another person's failure.
> 
> There maybe a spectrum we are talking about here and I am not willing to go as far toward one end of it as you are. I am certain you are right about a lot of people just not keeping specific frogs in the way that will maximize their chance to breed. I would even go so far as to say that this is the case for the majority of instances where people are having trouble breeding. This is at least partly because we as a hobby are not to the point where we know with certainty what the perfect list of factors for each frog is. I also think that you tend to be way too dogmatic in implying that what has worked for you will definitely work for 100% of other people if they can just duplicate things well enough. I think there is more variability in frogs than you are allowing for. I am glad you have been so successful in breeding your frogs. I also think that you will change your mind on this when you end up with frogs that just won't breed no matter how hard you try.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstand, I do say I believe there are individual needs and that the same approach defenitly doesnt work for each frog species! That's what i mean by the basic needs for each individual frog. I guess my English is not good enough for me to explain.. 

Your expamle of weather conditions is perfect! This is exactly what I mean by getting everything correct for the frogs, and the stuff we just can't imitate in captivity


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Gibbs.JP said:


> I had a 1.2 trio of leucs for a while. Healthy, active, kept the same as all my other frogs - many of which breed regularly. They never bred for me in about a year of having them. I let them go to a local friend, and literally days after he had them home he found a clutch of eggs. They've been consistently breeding for him ever since.
> 
> I think there are a lot of variables that we understand, and many that we don't - when it comes to successful breeding. I'm in the same boat with Mark on frog individuality - mostly when it comes to being bold or shy. I think most people lump a genus, species or local too easily into stereotypes, and forget that the frogs are individuals and can have very individual tendencies.


Yes, I also agree with that statement.

Ver shy frogs tho 99% has to do with the tank setup and lighting used. Ofc there are some individuals that a litlle hide more than others. Also species, male or female plays a role in this.. 

Mayebe if you changed the position wood in your vivarium, this could trigger them. Since change their tank change did.. This is an old trick in the book for tinctorius and other dendrobates.. It recreates the rainseason and the rotting and falling of branches and triggers the frogs. But ofc there are other variables.. As long as the basic setup is correct for the particular species of frogs, you all get them to breed.. This has been proven many times..


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tijl said:


> I think you misunderstand, I do say I believe there are individual needs and that the same approach defenitly doesnt work for each frog species! That's what i mean by the basic needs for each individual frog. I guess my English is not good enough for me to explain..
> 
> Your expamle of weather conditions is perfect! This is exactly what I mean by getting everything correct for the frogs, and the stuff we just can't imitate in captivity


Absolutely nothing wrong with your English. It's all in how I am absorbing the information  I think we may be saying similar things. My main objection is that I think the difference in individual frogs (within species/morph) is enough that a global understanding of a species/morph is not always enough for success in every case. You have to figure out your particular frogs before you can have breeding success. General species guidelines may not be enough. That may mean that "basic needs" are not very straight-forward. I think your statements hold true more for the easy-to-breed species than some of the fussier ones. I won't argue with you about most Tincs, Leucs, Auratus, etc. I just don't agree with the breadth of your original statement. I wonder if there would be any such thing as rare/expensive species if they were all easy to breed  One final point is that there are sometimes issues with frogs. I am pretty sure, after following your Bulls-eye thread, that there is something wrong with my female. She has only ever raised a single froglet. She lays, but the eggs are infertile or disappear. While it could be a tank set-up/other husbandry practice problem, this frog may be physiologically unable to breed. Again, just another example of how that statement shouldn't be an absolute.

Good discussion, Tijl!

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with your English. It's all in how I am absorbing the information  I think we may be saying similar things. My main difference is that I think the difference in individual frogs is enough that a global understanding of a species is not always enough for success in every case. You have to figure out your particular frogs before you can have breeding success. General species guidelines may not be enough. That may mean that "basic needs" are not very straight-forward. I think your statements hold true more for the easy-to-breed species than some of the fussier ones. I just don't agree with the breadth of your original statement. I wonder if there would be any such thing as rare/expensive species if they were all easy to breed
> 
> Mark


I think my translation with 'basic needs' is not correct.. When I mean basic needs, I realy refer to the frogs habitat, enviroment, climate, the strengt of light comming trough the canopy,... I don't mean leaft litter and bromeliads or stuff like that.. Bromeliads are btw very over used in the hobby  only a few species need these.. When I see Leucomelas tanks for example, I see almost none that realy even come close to their habitat.. 

When I look at breeding Atelopus, you need 3 different tanks setups or a realy realy big one to give them their basic needs.

But we can agree to disagree, nothing wrong with that. 


Some 'rare' species (like most Histrionica or Pumilio) are very easy to breed, but therefore not in big numbers.  When the demand is higher than the supply, prices go up.. Also import/export, legal issues and stuff like that,... is complicated and can be very expensive. 

Some species of Histrionica like red heads, bulls, tado.. are already in very large numbers to be found in 'illegal' offspring in Europe, but can't be legaly sold so no one realy has an idea of the numbers.. If they are sold the price is realy low.. Red heads already go for €100-€250 max in Germany as far as I have seen.. Tesoros blood is different story..

Same story as the Galactonotus or the Tumucumaque a few years aggo, now they are legal but people first almost gave them away for free when theyt were still illegal.. making them legal ment there was no more need for wildcaught or illegal traficing cause not everyone was able to get their hands on thm. Best thing that could happen for this species is making them legal. I'm not saying this needs to happen for other species, cause this could also mean for some men there is no more need for the species to exsisit in the wild and the frogs habitat gets burned down for soy plantations or other cause this makes better money..

The other way around is the same. Some Ameerega, epipedobates, colostethus,.. for expamle are very common and widely spread around south america, but are difficult to breed. Since there is no demand for most, some are unable to sell..


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Dartness said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Currently, I'm letting my first vivarium grow out, and I'm planning on adding Red Galacts in a few months. I would enjoy breeding, but I'm also not interested in keeping any of the froglets. I'm afraid I'm going to be stuck with a dozen froglets and no one to buy.


Heh, if you're worried about too many offspring, you can always give them away to local froggers for free


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## Dartness (Mar 6, 2020)

hypostatic said:


> Heh, if you're worried about too many offspring, you can always give them away to local froggers for free


Yes, I've considered this, but I don't live in a super populated area, and therefore, I doubt there's many local froggers. And I'd rather not have to ship them.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm not sure what anyone else has written, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way.

1) Do not keep what you can sell, keep what you like. I've been in the hobby a long time, and I just (again) had to remind myself about this lesson.

2) NEVER give away frogs. Make them inexpensive, yes. Never free. People do not value what they get for free.

s


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Dartness said:


> Yes, I've considered this, but I don't live in a super populated area, and therefore, I doubt there's many local froggers. And I'd rather not have to ship them.





Scott said:


> 2) NEVER give away frogs. Make them inexpensive, yes. Never free. People do not value what they get for free.


How remote are you OP? I know several froggers, myself included, that would drive a few hours each way for good/cheap frogs


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