# How Many Can I Put In? - DISCUSSION



## Mywebbedtoes

*How many frogs can I put into my new vivarium?*

This is a common question often raised and debated on Dendroboard. If you are reading this thread, no doubt you have become interested in keeping dart frogs. How many frogs you can keep and in what size tank are valid and important questions. The following are some loose guidelines taken from widely supported husbandry practices.

_*It should be noted these are guidelines, not hard fast rules. What works for one may not work for you and vice versa.*_

*HOW MANY FROGS PER TANK?*

*GENERAL INFO:* This depends on many factors, set-up of the tank (will it be verticle, horizontal, will it have a water feature?), frog species, and the size of the tank. Some use the rule of thumb of 5 gallons per frog. However, it seems to be more and more popular to allow a minimum of 10 gallons per frog. Often though, bigger is better. If you can allow for more room, than do so. Each frog species is also different. Your first step should be to identify what the needs are for a particular frog you are interested in. For instance, a ten gallon might be fine for a pair Auratus if it is horizontally oriented, where as a pair of Imitator might prefer the same 10 gallon as a vertical tank. This is due to the personality and activity of the different species. Some frogs enjoy climbing (many Thumbnails and Pumilio) a great deal and thus enjoy taller tanks. These are called arboreal frogs. Some species tend to spend more of the time on the tank floor (Tinctorius, Auratus, Terribilis , and others). These are known as terrestrial frogs and will enjoy more floor space. Your tank should reflect the needs of your frog, not simply what you want it to look like. One frogs paradise is another frogs hell.

*GROUPS:* Some frogs may be kept in groups, others tend to have aggression issues in groups that can even lead to death. Is the frog you want compatible in groups? If not, it is best to stay with a pair. If the frogs you desire are known to do well in groups, do some research and make sure the size tank you plan to use is large enough. Most keep group frogs in tanks larger than ten gallons to allow more space. However, frogs that are larger may need considerable more space based on the size of a group. Again, this is where the 5-10+ per frog rule can help you assess your situation and help you determine if you are atleast in the ball park.

*BE PRACTICLE:* Frogs are not fish. Many fish tanks contain many fish and several different species. While this too is debated in the fish hobby, generally tanks can hold more individual animals because they can use the entire space. Our tanks are not fish tanks. A frog can only use the ground and a background. Therefore be reasonable. If it seems like too much, or if it seems too small, it probably is. If you want a tank with a half dozen frogs, but you only have the money for a 10 or 20 gallon, then you may need to rethink your plans. The same can be said for mixed species tanks. If you want a tank with several "different colors" of dart frogs, please read the stickies on Mixing Species.
http://www.dendroboard.com/beginner-discussion/topic4532.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/beginner-discussion/topic13169.html

More to come...

Please add to this. What are your experiences, successes, failures? What do you keep and how do you keep it?


----------



## AaronAcker

Here are my current set up sizes, orientation. I do the 10gal/frog minimum and also use larger vivs when there is a water feature in the viv... 

15gal tall- horizontal, 2 young leucs, no water feature
18x18x24 Exo (~33gal) - Imitator pair, w/ water freature (also background done on 3 sides)
40gal breeder 1- horizontal, Azureus pair, w/ water feature
40gal breeder 2- horizontal, Galact pair, w/ water feature
40gal breeder3- horizontal, Leuc pair, will add other two leuc when they grow to like size, small water feature
10gal QT viv horizontal. no frogs in it right now.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

My personal experience.

30 Gallon tall (24" x 12" x 24" tall). Houses 2 Tinc. Suriname Cobalts. Well planted, no water feature.
10 Gallon Standard. Houses two juvi Azureus. Will be moved into a large tank (52 gallons) in the next month. No water feature.

On the way I will have (3) Intermedius in a large 40 gallon plus tank.

Tanks I built for others
15 Gallon tall. Houses 2 Brazilian Yellow Heads.
15 Gallon tall. Houses 3 Leucs.

Non of my tanks have water features. I am not opposed to them, but they can take up considerable room. A water feature must be designed to not take up too much room. If one is desired, than the tank should be of appropriate size to house both the water feature and the frogs requirements. This is usually hard to achieve in a small tank.


----------



## thetattooedone

Great post! 

I currrently have-

10 gallon horizontal- 2 D. Auratus which will be moved into a 50 gallon horizontal as soon as I complete it. I have had them in here since froglets and now they are adults and clearly need more space. I will add 1-2 more Auratus in the future. 

33 gallon Hex- 4 D. Red Amazonicus, looks to be a group of either 2.2 or 3.1.

56 gallon flat-backed hex- 6 C. Azureiventris- Honestly, I'd like to get these guys in a bigger tank. Very active, use the entire tank, just doesn't seem like enough room for the 3 known males.

29 gallon horizontal- 3 D. Imitator nominant. 

I would like to provide more space for each species that I have, with my ultimate goal being 90 gallon or bigger set ups for each species, but that's another story. It is very important to recognize the species requirements when building a tank and to prepare accordingly. True, my two D. Auratus could continue to live in their 10 gallon, it's heavily planted and they have multiple hides, but it doesn't give them much space at all. I'd always recommend more space over more species.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

thetattooedone said:


> I'd always recommend more space over more species.


Well said, and great advice.


----------



## Rich Frye

OK, I'll start by saying that I can keep a frog alive in a half gallon cup indefinitely. Will I be happy doing this? If I am selfish and am doing this as a neat "experiment" in Dart nanovivs , yes. Will the dart have the healthiest environment? No. So, to go to the opposite end of the half gallon nano each and every frog we work with in our hobby will do just as well if not better (done correctly) if they were in a larger viv than they are now. I read about people breeding tincs in tens all the time. There has been more darts produced out of tens than any other size viv, I am willing to bet. There are also crap-loads of puppy mills out there cranking out the pups at a rate of a pup per square foot of cage space. Good thing? No. What some people do not realize is that these frogs breed when stressed. Sometimes all it take s to get a pair breeding is to move them to a different viv. That's it. They get stressed and breed. I call it the "OH NO! The end of the world is here so we need to pass along our genes ASAP." occurence. (trademark Rich Frye 2004 :wink: ). I had a female standard lamasi lay during shipping to Florida once. Just because a frog breeds, it is not necessarily happy, healthy, or going to live to it's full potential.
Out of my 100 or so tanks I would have to say the average size is somewhere around 35-45 gallons. I have mostly pumilio set-up 1:2, 1:3, 1:1 and 2:1. The average size viv for them is about 60 gallon.
A bit of the science behind larger vivs. The more space the more chance for setting up a variety of self-sustaining micro-fauna. The more chance of frogs settling into micro-climates they find best.Less chance of thw whole viv being too hot or too cold for the frogs. Less chance of aggression for tanks not set up as 1:1. Less poop for the frogs to stand around in.
I can not think of a viv , set up correctly, that would be too big for any dart we have in the hobby now. So the answer to the question of how many is this. A ten could handle a pair of most darts in the hobby. I own exactly zero ten gals. Any frog that will do OK in a ten will do better in a 20. Any frog that will do OK in a 20 will do better in a 29. All things equal. I don't think I need to keep going on this tack. Set your Darts up with as much room as you can.

Rich


----------



## AaronAcker

Very well put Rich lol... For those of you living in an apartment (I used to and know the feeling) Just think how you'd "thrive" with a little more room


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

I cannot agree more with Rich's comments. Alot of thought should be given to how much space you want to give to this hobby. If you have limited space, but want a dozen species, they room you give your frogs may suffer for it. Plan ahead. In my opinion you will be happier with a few medium to large tanks vs. a bunch of small ones. But I am sure others would beg to differ.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

*PART II - THE FROGS*

Below are some of the most common Dart people get as first frogs. Again, this is not a master list, just an idea of some good starter options.

*Dendrobates auratus:* Commonly considered a good starter frog. This frog will do well in groups, granted the thoughts mentioned above are taken into consideration. http://www.dendroboard.com/care-sheets/topic19811.html

*Dendrobates azureus: *A beautiful and bold frog! Easy to care for and find. Many people however ask about groups of these together. Generally they are kept in pairs as this species is territorial and can be very agressive in groups. If you want a group tank, this is not your frog. Allow for plenty of floor room. http://www.dendroboard.com/care-sheets/topic19795.html

*Dendrobates tinctorius:* Same as the Azureus. Some vary in size from smaller to very large. But for the most part have the same restrictions as mentioned under Azureus. Not a good group frog. Allow for plenty of floor room. (See azureus link for info)

*Dendrobates imitator:* Considered one of the best starter frogs, in fact, many have gotten this as their first frog. Can do well in groups if not crowded. Individuals housing these in larger tanks enjoy the activity that goes along with the extra space. This species enjoys room to climb. Be prepared to offer springtails for any offpring. http://www.dendroboard.com/care-sheets/topic17838.html

*Dendrobates leucomelas:* A great starter frog! Does well in groups (taking into consideration the above comments), loves to explore the tank, has a nice call, and is easy to find. If you want larger group tank, this frog should be high on your list! http://www.dendroboard.com/care-sheets/topic17626.html


----------



## irish

I would like to point out something that i havent seen posted on here yet.
Consider a specific frog. Now this frog can live in pairs in a ten gallon. Now, alot of people are going to take this as a minimum. Which is probably better than just assuming that that is just the way of things. However, when people say that bigger is better, that is technically correct, but a 500 G would be that much better for the pair of frogs in question than anything smaller. 
Most people are going to ask questions because nothing is made very clear as far as tank size. Although a 500 G would be better, it is not generally applicable. However, on the other hand a ten is too small. The better question/solution would be to be able to say that for a specific frog species, X Gallon tank, or X footprint in a tank would let them THRIVE.
The reason this is better than giving a minimum is that newer people will be able to start with something smaller than some of the more complex and larger setups, but still be able to have a much better guideline to start with.
Alot of sites I have looked at say that a pair will do well in a 10 gallon, but a 20 gallon is more recommended. But when people ask, a ten gallon is shut down as even an idea. Doesnt this seem a little backwards?

Just a thought - 
Irish


----------



## flyangler18

With regards to azureus, let me throw this monkeywrench into the finely running machine. If you raise up a group of azureus from froglets together, any females in the group are less inclined to show overt aggression towards one another IME. Scott Menigoz can comment on this, as he maintains azureus in groups if memory serves. However, this shouldn't be taken as a best practice for a beginning hobbyist.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

irish said:


> The better question/solution would be to be able to say that for a specific frog species, X Gallon tank, or X footprint in a tank would let them THRIVE.
> The reason this is better than giving a minimum is that newer people will be able to start with something smaller than some of the more complex and larger setups, but still be able to have a much better guideline to start with.
> Alot of sites I have looked at say that a pair will do well in a 10 gallon, but a 20 gallon is more recommended. But when people ask, a ten gallon is shut down as even an idea. Doesnt this seem a little backwards?


Most of us will not speak in absolutes. "Thrive" is a relative term. I had a pair of Tincs in a rather small tank when I was raising them. I took longer than I wanted to to move them into a more suitable size (in this case a 30 gallon), but the frogs were always healthy and active, but I would not say they were for sure "thriving", as I see much more activity out of them now. I don't think we need to say that this frog must be in this size. We have the gallons per frog rule of thumb as discussed, that gives you a starting point and a default minimum based on which number you use. I don't think people automatically shoot-down 10 gallons. In fact, there are probably more people with ten gallon tanks on Dendroboard than any other size, or close to it. However, most of us prefer larger tanks bigger than 10 gallons, especially for your bigger frogs like Tincs. Some of the websites out there also give what I think is incomplete information. Many say that most frogs can be mixed with other species, which technically is true, but they usually do not take the time to explain all that can be associated with that, risks to breeding, risks to health, possible death, needed size, tank set-up, ect. Therefore, most everyone on the board will not recommend mixing to anyone based on that. It does not mean however it cannot be done. There are people who do it. There are people who also lose their frogs as a result. It is the same thing with tank size. The bottom line is spare as much room as you reasonably can. This does not mean every tank will need to be a 50 gallon. But one should avoid putting every frog they get in a 10 gallon simply because it _can_ work.



> If you raise up a group of azureus from froglets together, any females in the group are less inclined to show overt aggression towards one another IME. Scott Menigoz can comment on this, as he maintains azureus in groups if memory serves. However, this shouldn't be taken as a best practice for a beginning hobbyist.


True. I have seen this with Azureus and Regina. I asked the keeper how it worked for him. He told me well, that the frogs had been raised together. But he added that his tanks were very large, 100 gallons plus. One was 6' long I think. He also fed very heavy to mitigate any competition. The groups were 6-8 animals I think, so 12-16 gallons per frog at least. So again it can be done. But instead of walking through all of the scenarios with a new person, "well, if you have a very large tank, and you feed really heavy, and you watch for stress, and you have a back-up plan", we usually just tell them the commonly accepted husbandry practice of keeping them in pairs. It should also be pointed out that many who attempt these larger groups are pretty experienced with frogs and that species and know what to waych for and what is normal. If they are your irst frogs, or you have not kept that species you do not know.

In short, there are many things you _CAN _do, things that many will flat out say no to. But there is a reason for that. It's like any other skill, you have to learn the rules to break them. So when experienced froggers say, do this, this, and that, they are really saying, "this will work, and the other might not or probably won't." Does that make sense? It might explain some seemingly bullish answers to such questions as, can I mix this with that? How many in my ten gallon? Should I get this frog?

I have personally been reading up on planted tanks. I have more than once come across statements like this, "If you do not know what ___ is, stop right now and go get a book or google it", or "If you are not prepared to do ___ or spend ___, stop right here, this is not the hobby for you." While blunt, it is great information. Many people on Dendroboard just have that approach, a very direct explination of facts. I hope this helps in some ways. Sometimes we need to hear something that goes against what we want to hear.


----------



## Rich Frye

irish said:


> Most people are going to ask questions because nothing is made very clear as far as tank size. Although a 500 G would be better, it is not generally applicable. However, on the other hand a ten is too small. The better question/solution would be to be able to say that for a specific frog species, X Gallon tank, or X footprint in a tank would let them THRIVE.


The problem is that "these are guidelines" there are no hard facts established. People often use the 'will they breed in this' as a yardstick. There is just not hard scientific tests run on exactly what frogs do the best in exactly what set-up. And there never will be. Not enough bang for the scientific buck.



Irish said:


> The reason this is better than giving a minimum is that newer people will be able to start with something smaller than some of the more complex and larger setups, but still be able to have a much better guideline to start with.
> Alot of sites I have looked at say that a pair will do well in a 10 gallon, but a 20 gallon is more recommended. But when people ask, a ten gallon is shut down as even an idea. Doesnt this seem a little backwards?


The reason the tens get shut down so fast is that the hobby is realizing that while a ten may work a twenty is better. So, while there are no "imis will thrive in 20 talls" there is the advise that you should go as big as you can for your frogs to have the possibility to thrive. Space is only one of the many factors for darts to thrive though.

Rich


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

Rich Frye said:


> The reason the tens get shut down so fast is that the hobby is realizing that while a ten may work a twenty is better. So, while there are no "imis will thrive in 20 talls" there is the advise that you should go as big as you can for your frogs to have the possibility to thrive. Space is only one of the many factors for darts to thrive though.


We have for example the European dart hobby. Now I am sure there are lots of small tanks over there too, but it seems to be more of a trend to do larger set ups in Europe. Someone once said, that in Eurpoe there seems to be a little bit more focus on quality of quantity, where in the US we have a Pokemon collect them all mentality. If you have the time, money, and room, you can do that well. But larger seems to be catching on here too. More people also seem to be getting more and more into the plants too, which I think leads to larger tanks.

Two other comments

Irish - I hope you don't think this is directed at you. This is for general reference. I have been reading a few of your posts and realize you are out there doing your own research, which is great. But keep in mind, DB gets flooded with people who have not read anything, and really won't do so. They just want a fast answer that suits them. This post reflects that.

Rich - As a novice to intermediate frogger, and I know several others who have said the same, we really appreciate your straight forward advice. A lot of what I wrote in the posts above are a reflection of what I have gleemed from you, and Brent, and Ed, and Corey, and I appreciate it a lot.


----------



## irish

"Irish - I hope you don't think this is directed at you. This is for general reference. I have been reading a few of your posts and realize you are out there doing your own research, which is great. But keep in mind, DB gets flooded with people who have not read anything, and really won't do so. They just want a fast answer that suits them. This post reflects that."

No, not at all. My thinking on this is that (here and in the fish hobby) you have people who will say things like what Rich has said. That he can keep a frog alive in a cup, but does not have a single ten gallon setup. So if the "answer" to alot of people coming here and not researching, or doing limited research is updating some of this info, then I am all for it. 
I understand that people cannot say that to keep X frog, you need X gallon tank set up X way. Noone will follow that. But, when people say that a 20 gallon is better than a 10 gallon hands down, then maybe this is the info that should be given to newer people to begin with. The newer people are just going to start out that much better off, and if they decide to go up from there, then thats fine too. 
For example, my main objective was to research a frog that I wanted. I dont want to have a very large setup from the start, just something comfortable for the frogs. My initial reading said 10 gallons for a couple frogs. Now, the more I read, the more I realize that a 20 tall would be better to my needs, but not everyone goes that far either. If I had been reading 20 gallon this whole time, it would have made it much easier for everyone.

Really, just my two cents.
Irish


----------



## Rich Frye

Irish said:


> No, not at all. My thinking on this is that (here and in the fish hobby) you have people who will say things like what Rich has said. That he can keep a frog alive in a cup, but does not have a single ten gallon setup. So if the "answer" to alot of people coming here and not researching, or doing limited research is updating some of this info, then I am all for it.


But there really is no answer to laziness or the want for instant gratification. We have all pretty much come to the agreement that you can lead a horse to water.....As we discussed in one of the long threads I cited. Info is "updated" every day here. And most advanced froggers all agree that it is best to go as big as you can so there really is no debate here either. A couple websites posting a bit of info here or there compared to thousands of posts in a forum where the 'pros' can toss it back and forth a bit. Rather than "updating" info here for newbies , the newbies just need to make the effort to do real research. Not a quick search or an hour or two of perusing the stickies. Real research. Then , if there are further questions , or conflicting info, the newbie can chime in with a question in a thread already started. 





Irish said:


> I understand that people cannot say that to keep X frog, you need X gallon tank set up X way. Noone will follow that. But, when people say that a 20 gallon is better than a 10 gallon hands down, then maybe this is the info that should be given to newer people to begin with. The newer people are just going to start out that much better off, and if they decide to go up from there, then thats fine too.


As already written, this is pretty much the accepted info being passed along now on this forum. 


Irish said:


> For example, my main objective was to research a frog that I wanted. I dont want to have a very large setup from the start, just something comfortable for the frogs. My initial reading said 10 gallons for a couple frogs. Now, the more I read, the more I realize that a 20 tall would be better to my needs, but not everyone goes that far either. If I had been reading 20 gallon this whole time, it would have made it much easier for everyone.


And this is a reason I tell everyone to read before asking for answers. I can write (although I don't , some do) that a pair of tincs can do just fine in a ten. Period. Very true , and very limited info. If more people took the time to read more experienced frogger's responses to that question in all of the "how many" threads out there they would find that there is no 'right' answer. An example. You keep saying (understanding) that 20 is better and dwelling on the fact that some have said tens are just fine. Now a twenty is something you are looking at. Well, remember a couple posts back in this thread when I said that a 29 is better than a 20? :wink: Go as big as you can. If a ten is it, so be it. If a 50 is it, much better.

Rich


----------



## irish

Well if you just keep saying that bigger is better, then where does it end? You want someones space or pocketbook to determine? You want someone to come to the conclusions on their own, through their own research? These things are both fine, but the "bigger is better" response isnt really an answer to anything. 
You personally have said a couple of times that you dont have any frogs in ten gallon tanks. Why? For whatever reason, you have concluded that this is not an answer for you. That is what I am trying to get at. 
If the "experts" continue to say that bigger is better, and never give an example, then they dont look like experts at all. Not YOU, just in general....


Irish


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

It stops at what is reasonable for you. If a 90 gallon is reasonable for a pair, great, if a 20 gallon is reasonable for your pair, thats fine too. And if all you can keep is a ten gallon, than that works as well.
All comes down to being reasonable with all things, your space, your money, your time.



> if you just keep saying that bigger is better, then where does it end?


I feel we are blowing this out of proportion. All we are saying, is bigger can be better if you have that option. If you do not, then you simply do not.

If I was to nail it down. For pairs of larger frogs (Tincs, terribillis), I recomend atleast a 20 gallon tank. I would also recommend atleast a 20 gallon for a trio of Leucs of Auratus. Anything much beyond those peramitors I would suggest more room. I am just not sure about the questions here. It seems the guidelines in this thread should pretty well answer the question of a prefered tank size. Rich doesn't keep 10's because he personally feels they are too small for his frogs. I keep 30 gallons or bigger becasue I prefer the room for my frogs. I would not house many frogs in a 10, but there are many I would consider for a 20 gallon or up.


----------



## Rich Frye

irish said:



> Well if you just keep saying that bigger is better, then where does it end?


How big is the wild?


Irish said:


> You want someones space or pocketbook to determine?


 Yes


Irish said:


> You want someone to come to the conclusions on their own, through their own research?


 Yes 


Irish said:


> These things are both fine, but the "bigger is better" response isnt really an answer to anything.


If "the bigger the better" does not sink in then how about "go with as much space as you can"? 


Irish said:


> You personally have said a couple of times that you dont have any frogs in ten gallon tanks. Why? For whatever reason, you have concluded that this is not an answer for you. That is what I am trying to get at.
> If the "experts" continue to say that bigger is better, and never give an example, then they dont look like experts at all. Not YOU, just in general....
> 
> 
> Irish


Please scroll up to my first post here. Read the last paragraph that starts off with "A bit of science behind larger vivs". Have you read it before?
This is a pet peeve of mine. Answering questions that have not only been answered before in other threads, but ones that were answered in the same thread. I am sorry if I am coming off bad , but I just don't have the time to go over and over stuff that has been discussed the day before. If there is really something you do not understand that has been written I will go into it but, as I expected from a few other posts, you really are not taking the time to not only read but digest what you are reading. There are also tons of other threads with many froggers going into why a bigger viv works for them.

Rich


----------



## irish

Thats great Rich. I appreciate all the sarcasm very much, although i could do without it. I am just going to go ahead and withdraw from this one, as this is not a debate forum of any kind. Although for a discussion thread, you dont discuss very well. You just keep telling people that bigger is better and dodge specific questions and im sure you will continue to have good luck with that.

Irish


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

I do not believe the question of size has been dodged at all. And think the topic of size was covered in full detail. This was in my original post.



Mywebbedtoes said:


> Some use the rule of thumb of 5 gallons per frog. However, it seems to be more and more popular to allow a minimum of 10 gallons per frog. _Often though, bigger is better. If you can allow for more room, than do so._


So again, that gives you a minimum to work with that you should be able to have success with. Rich added:



> Out of my 100 or so tanks I would have to say the average size is somewhere around _35-45 gallons_


 Also,


> _A ten could handle a pair of most darts in the hobby._ I own exactly zero ten gals. _Any frog that will do OK in a ten will do better in a 20. Any frog that will do OK in a 20 will do better in a 29_. All things equal. I don't think I need to keep going on this tack. _Set your Darts up with as much room as you can_.


So I think this pretty clearly answers the question to size. A ten gallon will work for almost any pair, but if you can go larger that is better. There is no limit. If you wanted to build and could afford a 1,000 gallon tank that was set-up to mimic the frogs natural environment, would that not be better than a small tank? I just don't see the confusion. In the end, choose your size based on what you want to put into it and get back out of it. You can use recommended guidelines, or not, but a lot of experienced froggers are trying to give their frogs more room.

Anyone else want to further this topic with any first hand experiences? What are your personal preferences for size?


----------



## flyangler18

I think it has a lot to do what you are trying to accomplish with your tanks and the number of species that you are working with. I have a single viv- 45 gallons- that houses my imitator group, the only dart frog species that I am working with at the moment. For me, I would much rather do more with a small number of species than become another 'Pokemon' collector that sadly seems to define the American frogging community. I have 5 imitators in the group and probably a number of tads/soon to be froglets, and the size (9 gallons per frog) allows them to demonstrate some fascinating dynamic behavior. Prior to moving to a single large viv, my group was split between two 12 x 12 x 18 exos and I got laying and tads from both. This viv functions as both a display tank and a breeding project. 

Rather than keep more species, do more with the species you keep.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

flyangler18 said:


> Rather than keep more species, do more with the species you keep.


There is a quote I miss. Couldn't agree more with it.


----------



## zaroba

yea, i can't imagine having tons of frogs or species. gotta be extremely time consuming plus defeats the decorative purpose. its more like a job or chore, end up spending more time feeding etc then you do enjoying them. plus with them all in a single room, its kinda like a person is only owning them for the sake of owning them.

(please note, not trying to criticize anybody with the above comments, i personally have no problem with people having frog rooms etc or having dozens of tanks/species since i know most of the people that have tons of them are taking very good care of them and also doing it to make money on the side via breeding and selling)


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

zaroba said:


> (please note, not trying to criticize anybody with the above comments, i personally have no problem with people having frog rooms etc or having dozens of tanks/species since i know most of the people that have tons of them are taking very good care of them and also doing it to make money on the side via breeding and selling)


And I think that is a good point. There is a difference between ahving many tanks and species because you love it, and you enjoy caring for them, and simply trying to collect a large collection because you have to have them all. Some of the largest collections are owned by the most dedicated keepers. It all comes down to knowing your limits. My personal limits will allow for 3-4 species, so will not push it beyond that.

So a key tip to choosing species and tank sizes, KNOW YOUR PERSONAL LIMITS. Finacialy, physically, and time wise.


----------



## housevibe7

I am just going to post my two cents on this as well... I would rather not have the frogs, than to try to cram as many as I can into a 10. I live in a very small apartment (living room is my dining room, that combined with the kitchen is the size of most peoples bedrooms), and I dont have a tank under 30 gallons (except my froglet grow out tank, which is a 20), most in the 40-55 gallon range. SOO, what I am saying is, I think saying that you dont have room and/or money for a larger set up is kind of a cop out... If it is an issue with money right now... save for a month to buy the tank... and then save for another month to buy the supplies. If this means that the frogs get the best environment you can give them, great! It just means that you may have to exhibit some patience when buying. I had my first tank set up for almost 6 months before I got my first frogs. Quarantined them for another month before they got stuck in there.... so that tank was frogless for 7 months! I understand though that some of the very large tanks, 100+ can just be cumbersome, expensive, and just too large for some spaces. I know very few people that dont have room for a 30-40 or two. I think most people's space issues coming from the fact that they realize if they have bigger tanks, that will limit the amount of frogs they can put in a space. You mean, for my one tank, a 40 gallon... I could have 4 with all different frogs??? Its just a matter of prioritied I guess and what you want for your frogs.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

Well said Sarah. I fully agree with you. I did the same with my first tank, it was up and running for 7 or 8 months before the frogs. Quality over quantity is a good practice I think.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

Mywebbedtoes said:


> *Dendrobates imitator:* Considered one of the best starter frogs, in fact, many have gotten this as their first frog. Can do well in groups if not crowded. Individuals housing these in larger tanks enjoy the activity that goes along with the extra space. This species enjoys room to climb. Be prepared to offer springtails for any offpring. http://www.dendroboard.com/care-sheets/topic17838.html


Correction, this should have read "Considered one of the best starter _*THUMBNAIL*_ frogs, in fact, many have gotten this as their first frog." I know that many have gotten this as a first frog, but I should have not given the impression that this is _THE_ best starter dart as it might not be. In fact, I usually recommend something else as a first frog.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

*PART III - Personal Observations*

_On Dendrobates Tinctorious Suriname Cobalts _- I currently have an adult female pair of Suriname Cobalts. They are housed in a 30 gallon tall, 24"Wx12"Dx25"T. The tank has a lot of driftwood on the backwall that offers many perches. It ias planted with Orchids and several Broms on the backwall as well. I have found, that once these frogs were moved into a larger tank, the because MUCH more bold. I have also found that both frogs spend almost as much time off the ground as on it. They sleep and send a lot of time hanging out in the plants 2/3rds or more up the tank. Both feed on the floor. Given the size of these animals, and their active use of the whole tank, my personal recommendation would be a tank with a minimum foot print of 24x12", as much height as possible should also be allowed. My tank design also allows the majority of the floor (80%+) to be used with few dense plants that prevent access to the floor. Many of the plants creep or are tall rather than dense. I also cover about 40-50% of the floor in leaf litter but have not noticed the frogs preferring these areas over the planted. Although I personally feel my tank offers a very nice home, a 40-50 gallon tank would be even more ideal given the floor space they cover. Both females get a long well, with no aggression ever observed. Still, both spend most of their time apart, aside from feeding. Occasionally they can be found sleeping in the same plant side by side.

_On Dendrobates Azureus _- At this time these are too young to have made-up personal thoughts, although I imagine it will be similar to the above. At this time the juvi frogs are in a 10 gallon horizontal tank. Both prefer the leaf litter which cover most of the floor. They hide underneath it. Both are too young to sex.


----------



## edwing206

This is some great reading. You all make excellent points. 
I have a question. How many imitators can I put in a 20 gallon vertical? I'd like a group if I could. What do you guys think? I'd provide plenty ground space as well as different areas and heights for them to climb.

Thanks


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

A trio for sure. I know of people with a trio in 10's, so three even four would work in a 20. I personally would do a trio if you wanted a group. Almsot 7 gallons per frog. The main thing is how it is set-up. Lots of good hiding spots like broms will be nice for these frogs and a good layer of leaf litter.


----------



## housevibe7

3 would be the most I would put in there. Not saying you cant do more and get Iaway with it, I just wouldnt.


----------



## edwing206

I'll see how spacious I can set up the viv. What would be a good male to female ratio if I do 4 frogs and what would be a good ratio if I do 3 frogs? Thanks for the help guys and gals.


----------



## housevibe7

For the three I would do 2:1 for the 4... probably 2:2 or 3:1... The guys always seem to get along other than a bit of wrestling now and then, and nothing harful ever comes of the wrestling that they do. The only real negative I can see with the 2:2 is you might get some egg eating. I'm sure the females probably wrestle too, I just never see it because I rarely see my females.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

Anyone care to add his or her personal experience with any species?

*What are your opinions on you tank size?
Have you made any observations based on moving frogs into a larger enclosure?
Do you have any recommendations based on your experience?*


----------



## Roadrunner

I had 2 male imitators and a female in a 20hi. The males fought often so I just figured it would be better to have just a pair. 1 less mouth to feed and they seemed less stressed. I`ve never kept more than 1.1 together since. I`d never keep anything but froglets/juvis in a 10 gal. anymore.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

frogfarm said:


> I`d never keep anything but froglets/juvis in a 10 gal. anymore.


Period? That is interesting. I tend to agree with that as I have stated many times before. So you keep 15's or 20's mostly?


----------



## Roadrunner

I think they are 25 gal for pumilio and 30 gal for auratus, tincs etc.


----------



## edwing206

housevibe7 said:


> For the three I would do 2:1 for the 4... probably 2:2 or 3:1... The guys always seem to get along other than a bit of wrestling now and then, and nothing harful ever comes of the wrestling that they do. The only real negative I can see with the 2:2 is you might get some egg eating. I'm sure the females probably wrestle too, I just never see it because I rarely see my females.


Ok thanks. I need a little reminding of what 1:2 ect. is. I know one is male, female and unsexed. Just forgot what it is. I know I've read it here somewhere.


----------



## flyangler18

male.female.unknown


----------



## edwing206

Thanks Jason.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

Bump. This could use more real life experiences and notes if you got em.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

_*PART IV - Planting and Design*_

There are many how to's out there on basic and even advanced vivarium and terrarium design. A tank can be very simple, with a some leaf litter and a few plants, or very complex with dozens of different plants. The main question to start with is, "What do I need for the frogs I intend to keep?" 

While most frogs can be kept in the same basic designs, it does not mean this is ideal or even well suited for your frogs. The below comments were made by Corey Wickliffe (KeroKero), an experienced Dendrobates keeper. The original comments can be found here in their entierty.
http://www.dendroboard.com/beginner-discussion/topic40145.html

I encourage all to read through that thread as well, as it is very thought provoking.

So, a few general ideas to keep in mind when designing your tank.

From Corey:


> Well, most people set up the tank, and the frogs are really and after thought... few people are really planting and designing their tanks specifically for the frogs involved...
> 
> Tank set up and planting can be broken up into basic ideas (much like it has been done in fish) going by the habits of the frog... terrestrial, semi-arboreal, truly arboreal. We think of horizontal vs. vertical tanks in these respects, why not add the plantings into the ideas as well?


*GROUP #1: Terrestrial
EXAMPLES: Tinctorius , Terribilis, Bicolor, Auratus, Leucomelas can fit here, see group #2*



> Terrestrial frogs do better with more open space... in a fish tank, this would basically mean planting around the edges and background, leaving the center area open. In addition, I'm minimize the use of mosses to only up around the plantings and above the floor of the tank, and encourage a deep layer of leaf litter. These frogs, while not particularly adept climbers, will happily climb up broad tank decor like large driftwood and rocks. Areas too steep for the frogs (backgrounds), or too narrow for them to climb well (smaller than the diameter of the frogs) become perfect spots for epiphytic plantings... nice splash of color you don't have to worry about your frogs smothering. I've had some incredibly delicate plants in with tincs before... but put them on a tiny little vine that the frogs can't climb, and they will be left in peace. You can have a long, horizontal tank with lots of floorspace for these frogs to be happy, and in taller tanks you can just have the top part be an epiphyte garden they can't really reach.


*GROUP #2 - Semi-arboreal
EXAMPLES: Imitaros, Pumilio, Tricolor, Leucomelas could fit into this area too based on their climbing nature*



> Semi-arboreal frogs... think imitator and pumilio (ok - pumilio are terrestrial but due to small size and preference for using similar small bodies of water to the semi-arboreal thumbnails, their tank set up is similar). A nice cube set up option here... lots of floorspace for a group, but some height too that they will explore. Typically smaller frogs, these guys will be up in the plants and down on the floor scavenging... so I still recomend leaf litter on the floor, and moss up in the areas where the epiphytes are planted (driftwood makes excellent moss gardens!). One of the other key differences here is that I'm much more for the use of terrestrial plants... these guys forage in the leaf litter, but don't need the wide open spaces as much, and are typically smaller frogs more than happy to use terrestrial plants to get to higher areas (alocasia for example). These are frogs that will do well in heavily planted or more lightly planted tanks. I've had pumilio and imitator in tanks with no plants, lots of leaf litter, and solo cups to deposit tads and they did great. I've seen super planted tanks that they did excellent in too. These tend to be the most adaptable frogs and the most forgiving (and likely some of the ones to develop the most confusion on the "how heavily planted" debate).


*
GROUP #3 - Arboreal
EXAMPLES: Fantasticus, Ventrimaculatus *



> Truly arboreal - There are very, very few of these in the hobby... These are frogs that it truely doesn't matter what's on the floor of the tank, because they just don't go down there. IME standard fants seem to be like that, and the Peruvian/Ecuadorian Vents are known for being in epiphyte gardens well above the forest floor, but I'll have to research some other frogs to see what else would apply. These are frogs that likely need a heavily planted tank to loose themselves in (I know the std fants seem to prefer tight clumping bromeliads - single broms aren't that helpful). Honestly... you'd probably put so many plants in these tanks that enough light wouldn't get to the floor to grow moss.


With the above material in mind, it would be wise to take this into consideration for the species of frog you plant to keep. This can help you select the size of the tank as well. Will it be longer, or taller, or will I try to use both? Should I use a heavily planted bottom, or leave some nice open areas? If my frogs are going to be terrestrial mostly, should I use up 1/4 to a 1/3 of the floor for a pond that the frogs may or may not use, or should I stick to a simpler plan?

With a little forethought you will be well on your way to an outstanding enclosure for these wonderful creatures, one both you and them will love!

Please add your personal experiences as appropriate. Pictures to follow.


----------



## KeroKero

Shame on you for putting azureus as seperate as another species on the first page of this thread... they are officially tincs 

I think my only comment in addition to this about plants... is that the particular set up and needs of the frogs don't just vary at the species level... but at the "morph" level. I specifically cite Std Fants in arboreal because the "arboreality" of the species varies by the population... the Yellow Fants for example are much more terrestrial in nature and would need a set up much more like the semi-arboreal or even terrestrial set ups. Retics have similar habits. Not all vents are created equal either... Peruvian vents are those cited as living high in the trees, but the FG Yellow vents are more semi-arboreal in my experience (they do come down into leaf litter to forage). For more information into some of the PDFs, you may want to read up on the profiles on Dendrobates.org... it will give you a lot of clues into how arboreal or not the specific frogs are in the wild.

Of course, you last little bit brings up a whole other topic... water!

One of the most biologically interesting things about the Family Dendrobatidae is the evolution of the group away from significant bodies of water... the most specialized species requiring water in the amount of only a few ounces! This should be taken into account for two reasons... one is the popular idea of paludariums (PDFs aren't the best frogs for that, and it requires being an experienced fish and frog keeper!) and the other is knowing how water should be present in the terrarium depending on the needs of the frogs and your goals as a keeper.

If your frogs are breeding and you wish to pull every egg and raise it yourself, water isn't really even needed in the frog tank as long as your humidity is fine (but a shallow water bowl is still recomended - just in case). It's my opinion tho, that by doing that you're missing one of the coolest things about PDFs... their parental care. It ranges from transporting a tad to water to completely feeding it until the froglet morphs out of the water, depending on species. Different groups of frogs deposit their tads into different bodies of water.

The most popular frogs in the hobby tend to deposit their tads individually into small bodies of water. Eggfeeders and thumbnails (Ranitomeya) will deposit tads into water bodies as little as an oz or so, while the tinc group frogs do better with up to 8-16ish oz of water per tad. There is aggression and cannabilism in these tads since the body of water is so small they would compete for food. Since the frogs may deposit more than one tad, you'll want a variety of these small pockets of water in the tank (such as a variety of film canisters and/or solo cups), rather than one large one. Tinc group frogs can be raised together, and may be deposited together if only a large pond is provided, but typically are deposited individually into water pockets in the wild and this is something to keep in mind if you want the tadpoles raised in the tank.

Pretty much every other PDF in the hobby will deposit their whole clutches of tadpoles into a large pocket of water that typically ranges from a gallon to a significantly large puddle that can be larger than most tanks we put our frogs in. These are water filled despressions in the wild, or pockets of water next to streams that stay full with overflow from the streams (but typically don't have much of a current). This translates into needing a large tank for the frogs to have enough water to support the tadpoles in the tank. Some frogs, such as the larger Epipedobates/Ameerga like trivittatus seem to breed best when a large pond to deposit their tads in is present in the tank.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

I know I know. It's just that people often think of Azureus when they are first thinking about getting a PDF. That is why I separated them, so someone could pick it out. But I did mention their care was the same and provided the link back to the Azureus and Tinc caresheet. But you are 100% correct, they are Tincs and should be cared for accordingly.

Water, yes yes yes! When I see how many new hobbyist want a pond and a waterfall in cringe a little. I am glad you expanded on this. They can be a very nice addition if done right. They can also destroy an otherwise nice tank in my opinion.

Corey, any good leaf litter pictures to add?


----------



## KeroKero

No, not really... I'm on my work computer so I don't have frog photos. But people should note that "leaf litter" is not a scattering of leaves on top of the substrate, it is usually a couple inches deep... I tend to use oak, wild almond on the bottom layers when starting a new tank because they will lie flat in the humdity after a bit, where as the magnolia doens't. I just add new leaves in every couple of weeks, just a few to keep it going. It keeps to soil fauna going, and replaces old leaves as they decay into the substrate.


----------



## flyangler18

Yeah, I'd say I have a good inch or so of leaf litter going ( I tend to use a mix of maple and oak as they are here on the property). Maple decomps fairly quickly into a healthy humus layer with the texture and shape of the oak over top. Even the dwarf sirens have leaf litter in their QTs while their tank is being put together. 

On a (somewhat) related topic, I've been experimenting with using no mechanical filtration in my aquatic sal set-ups, just planting the bejeezus out of them to rely wholly on biological filtration. The thick layer of leaf litter certainly helps here too


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

I think we should sticky this, some great input in here.


----------



## frogparty

I like the give them as much room as possible whenever possible with everything theory. I have 4 leucs in a 38 hex, and am planting up a 29 gal for a pair of azures, and another 38 hex for some std lamasi.
However, I think that my leucs would like a bit more room, some girl on girl wrestling and a little egg eating. Maybe a 40 breeder with more floor space would be better


----------



## Steve-J

Hi, I'm thinking about breaking down my 55g Saltwater Tank and created a Vivarium. I would like to know how many frogs could reside there comfortably. It is a horizontal Tank. The measurements are :48"X12.5"X21". I'm also not sure on the species either? Preferably a colorful one? Could someone also direct me to some much needed reading on species, care, and building of vivariums?


Thanks,
Steve


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

This thread already covers all of those questions, just go back to the start of it. There is even a section on species or, "What to Put in".


----------



## Steve-J

Yes I know it says anywhere from 5-10 Gallons per frog, but what ill effects could come from me adding 11 frogs to a 55g Tank versus 5 of them?


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

That is not what you asked before. 11 is a lot for a tank that soze, too many I think. Stress, agression, competion for food, all of those will be greatly increased with that many. Half that number is more like it, or less.

EDIT TO ADD: The 5-10 gallons per frog is a guidline, by no means a formula for success. 2 frogs in a ten gallon is not the same as 20 in a 100 gallon because so many more factors come in to play. For each set-up one must consider if the amount of frogs in a particular enclosure is reasonable. I am of the beleife that was stated above, allow for as much room as possible, is the best approach. To me, 5 or 6 in a 55 gallon is just more reasonable then 10 or 11, regardless if it would work or not.


----------



## Tadpole4

My very first tank was a ten gal that I set up for a pair of Azureus. i was so happy with my new frogs, I wanted to add more :roll: so I set up a ten gal vert for a pair of imis. Not long after that I decided that I wanted a third tank and began doing more research- I decided then that instead of getting more frogs I would build bigger vivs for the frogs I have. (i keep crickets in those ten gal now :wink: )

I am much happier with the larger vivs and I am sure my frogs are as well. The larger vivs show better, I have more plants and the plants are happier as well. I am currently building a 30 gal viv and I just finished a 40breeder. I like that size range. It is good for two or three frogs and also allows a little room for some creative landscaping and planting.

One thing I see missing in this thread is a discussion on how much room is CONSUMED by very elaborate hardscaping. I see construction journals frequently where they start out with a good size tank and by the time the have it plumbed and GSed to death and the false bottom and the pool with the waterfall there looks to be only ten gal of air space left :roll: 

Don't get me wrong- I think those vivs look awesome! (I'm just too lazy to go to all that effort- and I prefer the big open spaces both horizontal and vertical) But with this discussion in mind I think the remaining actual living space needs to be factored when deciding if a group will really work in the viv - I mean it may have started out as a 40 gal tank but how much of that is actually there now? That amount is what should be used to judge what to put into the viv.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

Tadpole4 said:


> One thing I see missing in this thread is a discussion on how much room is CONSUMED by very elaborate hardscaping.
> But with this discussion in mind I think the remaining actual living space needs to be factored when deciding if a group will really work in the viv - I mean it may have started out as a 40 gal tank but how much of that is actually there now? That amount is what should be used to judge what to put into the viv.


Good point. I was just thinking that amout a 52 I finished. That is a major factor. All the more reason not to just use 5 to 10 gallon per frog as THE standard to go by as there are many factors. 

I also think bigger tanks are more fun, evern if it is only a 25 or 30 gallon, it doesn't have to be huge.


----------



## flyangler18

> One thing I see missing in this thread is a discussion on how much room is CONSUMED by very elaborate hardscaping. I see construction journals frequently where they start out with a good size tank and by the time the have it plumbed and GSed to death and the false bottom and the pool with the waterfall there looks to be only ten gal of air space left


This is why volume is a TERRIBLE calculation for the spatial needs of any animal.....Ed's commented on this a few times in the past:

See: beginner-discussion/topic4532.html


----------



## Tadpole4

I am certainly enjoying the planning phase of my current project :lol: Once I decide what I am going to put in it I will be able to get to work on the building- I want to make it as specific to the frog as I can manage in a 30 gal tank :wink: 
This to me is the biggest part of the fun- the process. (OK not the BIGGEST part) but once this is done then my role is reduced to observer /janitor 8) and I agree, bigger tanks are more fun  I am hoping I will have much more visibility of my frogs in this one.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes

This thread should be weighed in balance with the comments made by Ed in the link Jason posted. There is much more too it than just gallons. So if you have not you should read the thread, especially what Ed writes.

Tad, have fun with the tank.


----------

