# D. Leucomelas and D. Auratus



## Dart obsessed (Jun 10, 2009)

Hi all!I was just wandering if one D.Auratus could be housed with one D. Leucomelas?Thanks!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

No, I would strongly discourage mixing species.. much better to get a few of the same species - both for your viewing pleasure (get to observe social behavior) and the sanity of the frogs in question.


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## Darmon (Feb 25, 2009)

just do a search of mixing species and you will find the answer to that.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/40913-mix-mix-mix-mix.html

It's geneally accepted on this board that you should not mix species in the same tank, especially if you are new to dart frogs for a variety of reasons. These reasons include but are not limited to increased stress to the frog, and potential of creating a hybrid. So, I ask that you please not do it. If you're interested in some of the reasons the link above will direct you to about a dozen different threads we've had on this board regarding mixing and hybridizing frogs.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Although it is frowned upon by some members of this forum, Leucs and auratus can be mixed sucessfully in the same enclosure due to them having similar tempearments and body size. However, I do recommend that you do not start in the hobby with a mixed tank and first gain experience with a single species enclosure. 


There are steps that should be taken when constructing your enclosure that are helpful for both single species and mixed species tanks. What you will need to take into consideration is that the hobby frowns upon breeding mixed species or even mixed morphs. If you decide on keeping a mixed enclosure, you will need to decide if culling(destroying) any eggs or offsprings is something you can do to not allow the propagation of hybrids into the hobby.

1. Have your enclosure finished and frog ready prior to ordering/buying any frogs. 

2. Have your food source ready to go. Make some practice cultures.

3. Make sure your enclosure has several hiding places and several visual barriers to allow your frogs to be out of view from each other. This will cut down on the stress of the animals in a single or multi species enclosure.

4. It is best to purchase them from the same breeder. Make sure the breeder has a good reputation for supplying healthy animals. If possible have fecal samples tested by a vet that specializes in reptiles/amphibians. 

5. Introduce your frogs at the same time. This will minimize one frogs attempt to dominate the enclosure. 

6. Be prepared to remove any frogs that are over aggressive. This typically is not an issue with young frogs and may show up as they mature. This can happen in both single and multi species setups.

7. Research, Research, Research. 

8. And have fun. Sometimes it gets too serious around here. 

Good Luck
Bryan


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

you'll find that the large majority of formally trained individuals both in the academic zoological arena, as well as those in the hobby STRONGLY disagree with the above statement.

i most certainly do...


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

batrachiophyle said:


> you'll find that the large majority of formally trained individuals both in the academic zoological arena, as well as those in the hobby STRONGLY disagree with the above statement.
> 
> i most certainly do...


You are entitled to your opinion but please do not overestimate who is "strongly against" mixing. There are a handful of individuals that feel very strongly against mixed species tanks. They are very vocal. Most hobbiest are not against mixed tanks if they are set up properly and steps are taken to prevent hybrid offspring(culling). They tend to stay away from this touchy topic on the forums. Most, if not all, zoos are more then capable of setting up and maintaing mixed enclosures. Most keepers would prefer to setup mixed enclosures with species that live in the same region. Go to the Omaha Zoo in Nebraska and you will see this concept first hand. Ed is a prime example of a hobbiest and works at a zoo and can explain in detail how to setup a mixed enclosure that would be successful(and has done so in several posts). It is inaccurate to say this cannot be done successfully. It is accurate to say that a beginner is better off learning the ropes with a single species and then try a mixed species enclosure once they are more comfortable with maintaining frogs. 

Please do not turn this into a thread of lies about what is factual and what is opinion.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Last time I checked there's been no census among froggers to determine whether the majority of froggers condone, condemn or are impartial to mixed species tanks. However, it would at least appear that a majority of members on this forum disapprove of mixing species.

While I don't disagree that some zoos have created mixed species tanks in which frogs have not died, we've also seen some threads on here of zoos that have stressed frogs because of it or have ended up creating hybrid species. I doubt if someone new to the dart frog hobby will want to subject him(her)self to these.

Also, we've recently had a discussion on dartden about how "successful" these attempts at mixed species tanks really are. PM me if you'd like a link to this.

I'd really like to refer everyone to the link I provided earlier in this thread as it will prevent us from hashing out the same arguments here.



Jellyman said:


> That is not accurate at all. There are a handful of individuals that feel very strongly against mixed species tanks. They are very vocal. Most hobbiest are not against mixed tanks if they are set up properly and steps are taken to prevent hybrid offspring(culling). They tend to stay away from this touchy topic on the forums. Most, if not all, zoos are more then capable of setting up and maintaing mixed enclosures. Ed is a prime example of a hobbiest and works at a zoo and can explain in detail how to setup a mixed enclosure that would be successful. It is inaccurate to say this cannot be done successfully. It is accurate to say that a beginner is better off learning the ropes with a single species and then try a mixed species once they are more comfortable with maintaining frogs.
> 
> Please do not turn this into a thread of lies about what is factual and what is opinion.


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

@ JellyMan: 

the budding hobbyist doesn't need some long diatribe about the possible potential for success in certain circumstances. 

if i'm not mistaken, the poster alluded to the fact that they were new to the hobby. 

also: i'm not going to play this "back and forth" game you typically play with anyone who will give you the time to do so on this site concerning this topic, nor is this the place for it if i would. there's enough of that tripe scattered throughout the forum for others [myself included] to extrapolate their own objective conclusions from. i certainly have. 

i simply read your statement, and gave the poster the most solid advice i could based on my own intellect, and bioethics. we obviously don't agree.  good day.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Although it is frowned upon by some members of this forum, Leucs and auratus can be mixed sucessfully in the same enclosure due to them having similar tempearments and body size. However, I do recommend that you do not start in the hobby with a mixed tank and first gain experience with a single species enclosure.
> 
> 
> There are steps that should be taken when constructing your enclosure that are helpful for both single species and mixed species tanks. What you will need to take into consideration is that the hobby frowns upon breeding mixed species or even mixed morphs. If you decide on keeping a mixed enclosure, you will need to decide if culling(destroying) any eggs or offsprings is something you can do to not allow the propagation of hybrids into the hobby.
> ...


all amazing and ver hepful info.. but is this for someone just new to the hobby or is this for a mixed tank? i think all of the above should be done even if its all the same species of frog.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I condone the mixing of business with pleasure, booze with fruit juice and/or soda and blue and yellow to make green


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

in this particular case, i'll wear my first, and only red dot as a badge of honor. thanks, mystery red dot bandit.  i stand by my posts.

mixing, "hybridization," and especially the advocating of mixing to a new hobbyist is about the most irresponsible, and reckless ideology i've ever seen put forth here. 

that's what leads people who've never stepped foot into a general zoology course [102, of course] into thinking they're "doing scientific research" by breeding various isolated populations of _tinctorius _for "cool and awesome" phenotypical traits.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Dart obsessed said:


> Hi all!I was just wandering if one D.Auratus could be housed with one D. Leucomelas?Thanks!


i guess you have not been reading all the hybrid threads.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Kind of an.....uh.....odd......first post huh?


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

There is much more good in keeping species separate than there is good in keeping species together. Ever heard of the expression better safe than sorry? Just get two tanks and everyone will be happier, including the frogs.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Has it been a week already?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> No, I would strongly discourage mixing species.. much better to get a few of the same species - both for your viewing pleasure (get to observe social behavior) and the sanity of the frogs in question.


Ha, someone actually dinged me for this comment, which I think is probably one of the most subtle on this thread. Of course, it was clearly some newbie who has no influence (grey mark) but seriously, read the rules and learn when and when not to provide feedback to a poster. His/her message below:

"you cant say you cant house them together you should only suggest they shouldn't because they can it just not approved of."

As is clear, their message makes zero sense (I never said you can't house, I strongly advised against). 
I would seriously encourage this person to rethink their use of the feedback system unless they are willing to actually read the rules and regs.


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## Dart obsessed (Jun 10, 2009)

Well can I only keep at least one D. Leucomelas by himself?Also can someone give me a link that shows a vivarium witha waterfall and stream?Thanks!


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

> Well can I only keep at least one D. Leucomelas by himself?


What do you mean by that? Are you asking if you can keep just one? Or if you can keep more than one together? Either way, the answer is yes as long as you are keeping one species per tank.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Leucs are pretty social frogs, you can keep as many in the same enclosure as you want as long as you have enough space per frog. The board recommends 5 gallons per frog, I personally try to go with at least 10 gallons per frog. Build yourself a 600 gallon tank and by my space/frog you can have 60 leucs in that enclosure!


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## Dart obsessed (Jun 10, 2009)

Yes I mean only one Leuc in a well planted 10 Gallon vivarium.


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

as was mentioned earlier, the standard wisdom is that for every 1 adult Dendrobatid, you must have at least 5 gal. of tank space... oriented either vertically, or horizontally depending on species requirements. in your case.. with the 10 gal. you could therefore keep as many as 2 adult _D. leucomelas_ and be just fine.

like many others, i usually opt for a bit more space, but the previously mentioned formula is completely sufficient.

also:
i think you'll really enjoy this species. i recently acquired my very first group of _leucomelas _[0.0.4] and, they're incredibly active, bold, and fun to watch even as young froglets. make sure you MASTER the culturing of _Drosphilia spp. _BEFORE buying your _leucs_, though. good luck!


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

batrachiophyle said:


> in this particular case, i'll wear my first, and only red dot as a badge of honor. thanks, mystery red dot bandit.  i stand by my posts.
> 
> mixing, "hybridization," and especially the advocating of mixing to a new hobbyist is about the most irresponsible, and reckless ideology i've ever seen put forth here.
> 
> that's what leads people who've never stepped foot into a general zoology course [102, of course] into thinking they're "doing scientific research" by breeding various isolated populations of _tinctorius _for "cool and awesome" phenotypical traits.


Just to set the record straight, I cannot leave negative feedback so it was not me that thought your comments were worthy of a negative ding. 

Thanks for giving me a negative dig simply because my opinion differs from yours. 

In case you did not notice. I stated several times in my response that this should not be done by someone new to the hobby and that they should start with a single species enclosure and gain some knowledge prior to setting up a mixed enclosure. The issue I have is that people continue to say that it cannot be done successfully when that is certainly not true. Also, the misconception that keeping a mixed enclosure is frowned upon by the "majority" of the community when in fact there are a handful of people that are 100% against it, a handful of people taht are 100% in favor of it, and everyone else is somewhere in the middle.


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

PLEASE! Stop the insanity! Agree to disagree and let it go. 

Peace 
Shawn


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> when in fact there are a handful of people that are 100% against it, a handful of people taht are 100% in favor of it, and everyone else is somewhere in the middle.


This is exactly why you are going to be wearing that red hat for quite some time.....

Your above statement just isn't true and you know darn well that you don't have the facts OR data to back it up.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> This is exactly why you are going to be wearing that red hat for quite some time.....
> 
> Your above statement just isn't true and you know darn well that you don't have the facts OR data to back it up.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/9709-mixed-tank-verdict.html

This is probably the most comprehensive poll taking into account 329 members "opinions."
Only 23% are against mixed tanks, far from the majority that is often referred to. Instead, 77% are either for mixed tanks(10%) or are willing to admit that depending on species and if you are careful that it can be done even if they choose not to do it(67%). 

That poll would need to be off by 28% to get the 51% majority for being totally against mixed tanks.


Also, the OP asked "I was just wandering if one D.Auratus could be housed with one D. Leucomelas?" and the answer is yes and successfully but with gained knowledge and understanding of the frogs and enclosure setup. To simply be told no is not correct.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> This is probably the most comprehensive poll taking into account 329 members "opinions."


You really think that was a valid poll? A sampling of the most sucessful breeders in the country? Do you also think it's "scientific"?

Well....anyway....I'm not really sure why you posted that, or any other thread that your "facts" are featured in, because all it does is showcase how you are attempting to be the "champion of mixing", and are getting lambasted in your quest.




Jellyman said:


> To simply be told no is not correct.


Uh....no one here just told him..."no"....

All the replies had reasons and caveats.


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)

literally flooding my inbox with missives, and calling me an outright "liar" therein won't further your ideology either, Jelly.

frankly, i gave you a red dot because your post warranted one. if you're paranoid enough to accuse me of simply being retaliatory.. [when the reputation mark left to me was anonymous, and you obviously cannot leave marks at all because of your lovely reputation which precedes you] then.. whatever.

there's not a man or woman on this site [or anywhere else on this rock for that matter] who i wouldn't tell the exact same thing.

my loyalties lie with the Family Dendrobatidae. 

...NOT with the perpetual, chronic, overtly dramatic Soap Opera, which, based on all the previous posts of yours which i've read on this, and other forums, you seem to quite literally RELISH rolling around in, and accosting newer members of the forum over.

...if you want to play the "Mighty Mixing Martyr," go for it.. just don't expect me to play along. 

i stand by all of my previous statements 100%. 

we disagree. have a nice day.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

batrachiophyle said:


> literally flooding my inbox with missives, and calling me an outright "liar" therein won't further your ideology either, Jelly.



Wow, flooding your inbox with 2, yes 2, must have really strained you. I was hoping you could have a civil conversation but it is you who revels in the online drama and feels the need to post everything in open view. I sent you a link to a poll in which 329 members participated in stating that the minority are those that are absolutely against mixing and another to let you know that I did not give you a negative rep ding and that I did not appreciate one from you simply because our opinions differ. 

We do disagree and that is not a bad thing. Why do you make it out to be good vs. evil??


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> You really think that was a valid poll? A sampling of the most sucessful breeders in the country? Do you also think it's "scientific"?
> QUOTE]
> 
> There is nothing scientific about this poll. It merely has compiled the opinions of 329 dendroboard members and clearly reflects that the majority of members are not against mixed enclosures. The reason I posted it is because there are a handful of people who want everyone to believe that this is the majority opinion when in fact it is not.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> The reason I posted it is because there are a handful of people who want everyone to believe that this is the majority opinion when in fact it is not.


So you have the pulse of the Dendrobatid community?

Here's a thought....why don't you PM all of your many "mixing" supporters and those members that think as you do, and ask them to give you postive rep and you will be on your way to credibilty!

Wait...you _already_ did that....AND you still have the red hat.

hmmmm...the ONLY other explanation I can offer is that the Mods and possibly myself have conspired against you to keep you in the red!

Wait a minute again.....you have already advanced that theory yourself.

It may be time to contact Michael Moore on all this.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> So you have the pulse of the Dendrobatid community?
> 
> Here's a thought....why don't you PM all of your many "mixing" supporters and those members that think as you do, and ask them to give you postive rep and you will be on your way to credibilty!
> 
> ...


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

This is the original posters 4th. post I can't even imagine what he/she is thinking. This happens far to often when someone asks what should be a fairly simple question. I know people get upset but, wow. If this was my first post and read all of this I wouldn't be back. 

My 2 cents


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

Some people will just do what they want despite getting credible information from knowledgeable people.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

frogfreak said:


> This is the original posters 4th. post I can't even imagine what he/she is thinking. This happens far to often when someone asks what should be a fairly simple question. I know people get upset but, wow. If this was my first post and read all of this I wouldn't be back.
> 
> My 2 cents


Well, I would hope they would say.....whoa...I've learned a lot and I'm glad so many people took the time to post and try to help and guide me.I really should concentrate on one species for now, since I'm just starting out.

Maybe something like that?

And since the postings were genuinely trying to help and not condescending to his newb question....I would hope he would come back.


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

frogfreak said:


> This is the original posters 4th. post I can't even imagine what he/she is thinking. This happens far to often when someone asks what should be a fairly simple question. I know people get upset but, wow. If this was my first post and read all of this I wouldn't be back.
> 
> My 2 cents


Very good point Glen, the constant beating of this dead horse has probably driven more than one member off. It is really not helping anyone. 

Peace
Shawn


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Well, I would hope they would say.....whoa...I've learned a lot and I'm glad so many people took the time to post and try to help and guide me.I really should concentrate on one species for now, since I'm just starting out.
> 
> Maybe something like that?
> 
> And since the postings were genuinely trying to help and not condescending to his newb question....I would hope he would come back.


I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone. I'm a newb. I've been here since March and I've learned more than I could have imagined! Everyone that's posted on here should go back to the beginning and read it over. Pretend this was you're first time on DB. What would you think?


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Well, I would hope they would say.....whoa...I've learned a lot and I'm glad so many people took the time to post and try to help and guide me.I really should concentrate on one species for now, since I'm just starting out.
> 
> Maybe something like that?
> 
> And since the postings were genuinely trying to help and not condescending to his newb question....I would hope he would come back.


See, we can agree. That is what I stated in my original post.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Dart obsessed said:


> Hi all!I was just wandering if one D.Auratus could be housed with one D. Leucomelas?Thanks!


This was a simple question for a beginner. Simple answer is no. Considering he/she is a beginner. Do we all agree on that? I'm tired of this BS. The OP hasn't been back since yesterday at 11:35pm. Check the stats. The original poster has learned nothing from this and I doubt he/she will be back. Does that say enough! If this needs to be debated.... This is not the place...Start a new thread and leave the newbs ....out of it! Notice the big grins....Nobodys grinning now!

Jellyman- I tried to give you the" benifit of the doubt"

Do you argue for a living?

You must be a lawyer!


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

frogfreak said:


> This was a simple question for a beginner. Simple answer is no. Considering he/she is a beginner. Do we all agree on that? I'm tired of this BS. The OP hasn't been back since yesterday at 11:35pm. Check the stats. The original poster has learned nothing from this and I doubt he/she will be back. Does that say enough! If this needs to be debated.... This is not the place...Start a new thread and leave the newbs ....out of it! Notice the big grins....Nobodys grinning now!
> 
> Jellyman- I tried to give you the" benifit of the doubt"
> 
> ...


I really wish I could give you another green for this post!
Unfortunatly every time someone asks a simple mixing question-this is the result.
It`s starts out innocent enough and then always ends up in a debate.
Getting back to the original question-I actually tried keeping these 2 frogs together way back when. It didn`t work. The Leucs. were far more bolder then the Auratus and feeding time was a nightmare. That`s just 1 of the reasons why this should not be done.
Please enjoy this wonderful hobby and this forum.
We come in peace and mean you no harm!!

John


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I really wish I could give you another green for this post!
> Unfortunatly every time someone asks a simple mixing question-this is the result.
> It`s starts out innocent enough and then always ends up in a debate.
> Getting back to the original question-I actually tried keeping these 2 frogs together way back when. It didn`t work. The Leucs. were far more bolder then the Auratus and feeding time was a nightmare. That`s just 1 of the reasons why this should not be done.
> ...


John,
Took care of the green for that one! 

To the OP first off WELCOME, second please dont let the discussions scare you away this is a GREAT forum to visit and learn. Learn to roll with the punches around here because some are quick to swing! But on to your question, as a new comer to the hobby i would say focus on one species in the beginning get everything figured out with your frogs and tanks, then if you still really enjoy the hobby and want more frogs take some time and enjoy building a new tank and getting new frogs all over again. But be warned one tank turns into 2 then 2 to 3 and blah blah blah and soon you will end up with the significant other telling you to put everything in the basement or in the spare bedroom


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Well I guess I'm GUILTY of getting off topic.

To the OP. When we first got into this we made the mistake of putting 3 different species of Mantellas in the same viv. We got some bad advice from a pet store. "They'll be OK as long as they are the same size" This was not the case. The Expectata's soon became the dominant species. There was some wrestling where the Expetata's always came out on top. During feeding was the worst part. The Expectata's fed while the other's waited for scraps. We knew we had to seperate them and this forced us to build two other vivs very quickly. They're all seperated and doing fine. I'm just glad that we had the room to seperate them. Some people may not. This is an amazing hobby and we wish the best of luck!


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

frogfreak said:


> Well I guess I'm GUILTY of getting off topic.
> 
> To the OP. When we first got into this we made the mistake of putting 3 different species of Mantellas in the same viv. We got some bad advice from a pet store. "They'll be OK as long as they are the same size" This was not the case. The Expectata's soon became the dominant species. There was some wrestling where the Expetata's always came out on top. During feeding was the worst part. The Expectata's fed while the other's waited for scraps. We knew we had to seperate them and this forced us to build two other vivs very quickly. They're all seperated and doing fine. I'm just glad that we had the room to seperate them. Some people may not. This is an amazing hobby and we wish the best of luck!


You did nothing wrong my friend.

John


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

frogfreak said:


> This was a simple question for a beginner. Simple answer is no. Considering he/she is a beginner. Do we all agree on that? I'm tired of this BS. The OP hasn't been back since yesterday at 11:35pm. Check the stats. The original poster has learned nothing from this and I doubt he/she will be back. Does that say enough! If this needs to be debated.... This is not the place...Start a new thread and leave the newbs ....out of it! Notice the big grins....Nobodys grinning now!
> 
> Jellyman- I tried to give you the" benifit of the doubt"
> 
> ...


Actually the simple answer is yes, they can be housed together. 

To answer no would be factually incorrect as stated not just by me but by our Dendroboard resident Ed who is probably the most respected member on this forum. Although this may be more difficult for a newbie, a newbie should still be presented with all the information.

I hope the OP can learn from this that although it is possible to have a sucessfully mixed enclosure, someone new to the hobby would be better off learning the ropes with a single species setup and then if they decide they want to try a mixed enclosure they have a resource at Dendroboard that can help them be successful. 

No, I am not a lawyer. Lawyers inherently lie. I only present what I believe to be true. I'm not sure why you feel this is an arguemnt? Are you not able to discuss a difference of opinion without it being considered an arguement? 

You are correct, this is not the place for this to be debated. I simply offered my advice/opinion to the OP's opening question. Others felt it necessary to contradict my post specifically and then attack my comments within the thread rather then using the PM system to debate this. It is unfortunate that others cannot allow an opposing opinion to be offered without turning it into a debate in every thread.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

frogfreak said:


> Well I guess I'm GUILTY of getting off topic.
> 
> To the OP. When we first got into this we made the mistake of putting 3 different species of Mantellas in the same viv. We got some bad advice from a pet store. "They'll be OK as long as they are the same size" This was not the case. The Expectata's soon became the dominant species. There was some wrestling where the Expetata's always came out on top. During feeding was the worst part. The Expectata's fed while the other's waited for scraps. We knew we had to seperate them and this forced us to build two other vivs very quickly. They're all seperated and doing fine. I'm just glad that we had the room to seperate them. Some people may not. This is an amazing hobby and we wish the best of luck!



Great example. Sometimes when mixing unfortunately the frogs are not compatible and will need to be seperated. This is something that a more experienced hobbiest will notice quicker then a newer hobbiest.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> You are entitled to your opinion but please do not overestimate who is "strongly against" mixing. There are a handful of individuals that feel very strongly against mixed species tanks. They are very vocal. Most hobbiest are not against mixed tanks if they are set up properly and steps are taken to prevent hybrid offspring(culling). They tend to stay away from this touchy topic on the forums. Most, if not all, zoos are more then capable of setting up and maintaing mixed enclosures. Most keepers would prefer to setup mixed enclosures with species that live in the same region. Go to the Omaha Zoo in Nebraska and you will see this concept first hand. Ed is a prime example of a hobbiest and works at a zoo and can explain in detail how to setup a mixed enclosure that would be successful(and has done so in several posts). It is inaccurate to say this cannot be done successfully. It is accurate to say that a beginner is better off learning the ropes with a single species and then try a mixed species enclosure once they are more comfortable with maintaining frogs.
> 
> Please do not turn this into a thread of lies about what is factual and what is opinion.


While this issue is once again streaming into an argument, perhaps I can help stem it a bit...

First of all, we don't need to endlessly argue about this issue. It's not productive and just causes hurt and division between good folks. 
Here's why those of us on the non-mixing side of the fence believe in single-species tanks:

Mixing species is ultimately harmful to the frogs' survival because it prevents them from producing offspring---I think if we put it to a majority vote, most would agree that it is better that the frogs reproduce rather than merely coexist until they die off. It seems more benevolent, if you will, to encourage them to breed and survive rather than to simply have a pretty thing to display in your living room. Anyone else agree?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

*Someone please re-post that list of 8 or so DB links to threads involving mixed species vivariums!*

If anyone buys into what Jel is trumpeting after reading all those threads and postings.....then there's nothing more we can say or do.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> *Someone please re-post that list of 8 or so DB links to threads involving mixed species vivariums!*
> 
> If anyone buys into what Jel is trumpeting after reading all those threads and postings.....then there's nothing more we can say or do.


Then let's all reflect on what is best for the frogs and be at peace with each other. We can continue mutual side convos/disagreements in PM if need be.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> *Someone please re-post that list of 8 or so DB links to threads involving mixed species vivariums!*
> 
> If anyone buys into what Jel is trumpeting after reading all those threads and postings.....then there's nothing more we can say or do.


Like I stated before:
Ed, who is by far one of the most well respected members on this forum, who works at a zoo and has a ton of knowledge, who is oppossed to mixing, has posted several times that mixing species can be done successfully.

What Phil is trying to do is discredit me because I am a simple hobbiest. Please do not take my word for it. Research the posts offered by Ed. His are based on actually maintaining successful mixed enclosures. The 8 or so links Phil speaks of are made up by individuals that have never attempted keeping a mixed tank or did so without the knowledge needed to keep one successfully. 

I'm not telling anyone to just jump in and do it(I had in the past). I am advocating that one gain the knowledge necessary to be successful and for those who have the knowledge to not be afraid or ashamed to share it.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> Then let's all reflect on what is best for the frogs and be at peace with each other. We can continue mutual side convos/disagreements in PM if need be.


Agreed. Please PM me anytime.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

You are taking Ed's words out of context.....again.

When I suggest that people read the 8 threads on this topic....I am attempting to give them access to information, easily, so that they can form their own opinions.

But there is always something wrong....some kind of forum conspiracy with anyone who posts against you, I guess 

The last reputation points I gave you were positive BTW...you know this because I signed them as I always do.

The OP asked a simple question and was given good, quick advice:

Do not attempt to put those two different species together, as you are not experienced and the results will most likely be...bad. Even you agree to this.

Please start another thread if you want to be back on your mixing soapbox. I quess even I am guilty of feeding the troll.....


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I think we could all make the best progress discussing this at length by using private messages. When personal interests clash in public, people get into heated arguments, and IMO things resolve much more quickly via PM since one doesn't feel the need to defend oneself in front of everyone.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> I think we could all make the best progress discussing this at length by using private messages. When personal interests clash in public, people get into heated arguments, and IMO things resolve much more quickly via PM since one doesn't feel the need to defend oneself in front of everyone.


I have PM'd Philsuma but he continues to make comments in the public forum. I would be more then happy to converse with him via PM. Ball has been in his court.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> You are taking Ed's words out of context.....again.


I have not taken Ed's words out of context.
Here are just a few quotes you can find in threads on Dendroboard posted by Ed supporting the facts that mixed enclosures can be done successfully:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by gm_kevin 

Ed - I've read many of your posts on the boards, and you seem to know a lot about what you're talking about. Meaning, I respect you and many of your opinions, as I'm sure most people on the boards do. I'm just curious though, throughout this thread you've been talking around taking a stand by making people question their predisposed responses to all the mixing threads (as they should), but in the end what's your take on the situation? Do you really think within one of our tanks multiple species, morphs, whatever, can coexist, where all said inhabitants can thrive as they would alone? 


The simple answer is yes. (Now for the complexities.) However this depends on a lot of forethought and consideration prior to setting up the enclosure. I think I have said this many times. 
It isn't as simple as setting up a aquarium and going out to the local pet store and getting "community" fish but it can set up properly and I think I have stood on that position for a long time. I started working with these sorts of issues a good period of time ago (well over 15 years now) and have seen where poorly thought out set-ups don't work and where well thought ones can and do... 
There are also the occasional suggestions of these sprinkled through the literature if people care to sift them out as well. (for one example see Wilkinson, John W.; 2004; Dendrobates truncatus: an often overlooked poison-dart frog; Herpetological Bulletin 88: 11-12 )"

"a sound understanding of the normal behavior of the frogs is required to be able to design and implement a multispecies enclosure with the greatest chance of success."

"Keep in mind that when discussing herps in general I have been keeping/working and learning about them for more than 35 years and I have been working with anurans pretty solidly for more than 15 years... I have to say that I did a lot of research before I was able to get my first successful multispecies enclosure."

Please do not feel you need to take my word for it. Ed has over 35 years of experience and is way more qualified then me. You can find many posts explaining how to be successful with a mixed enclosure posted by Ed. The main thing to remember is you need to aquire the knowledge and experience to be successful.


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## GeorgiaB (Apr 23, 2009)

First of all... deja vu.... i think i have read this same post many times  I dont post that often but this has been driving me NUTS!

So to the OP here's my opinion .... It is definately NOT recommended for beginners (like myself as well as you)... the mixing if not done properly (by someone with training or YEARS of experience) can cause stress to your frogs, crossbreeding, and eventually death (usually because the subordinate frog is not getting enough food). I personally don't support mixing. IMO we are putting frogs in glass boxes for our enjoyment and they need not be stressed further by competition from another species of dart frog. Buy two 10 Gallons and you can have both species!

I think you will find that you will enjoy your frogs much more when they are healthy, stress free and interacting with a buddy of his/her own species. Leucomelas are wonderful! Good luck!

JELLYMAN:I dont understand why you can't just post your opinion and leave it at that. You have a right to post your opinion as does everyone else but this post was for a beginner and you have said that you dont support beginners (ie first time froggers) mixing. That is all you should have said, your yes/no answer just leads to confusion. 

Please get off your soapbox and leave the beginner threads out of your lengthly arguments. You have had your say many times over an everyone knows your position. If someone wants more of your opinions/advice then let them come to you.

Sorry for this lengthly post!!!!! 

GeorgiaB


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Ya know,
I`ve been trying really hard to stay out of this mess, I really have.
But , as I stated in my previous post I did attempt to house these 2 frogs together.
We seem to get a lot of questions involving mixing Leucs. and Auratus, maybe because they are good beginner frogs.
All I`ve been doing for the last couple of day`s is re-living watching the Leucs. actually trample the Auratus getting the food.
It was sad and pathetic watching this.
Mixing frogs is for our enjoyment, unfortunatly they usually pay the price.

Just a thought- do with it as you please.

John


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

GeorgiaB said:


> JELLYMAN:I dont understand why you can't just post your opinion and leave it at that. You have a right to post your opinion as does everyone else but this post was for a beginner and you have said that you dont support beginners (ie first time froggers) mixing. That is all you should have said, your yes/no answer just leads to confusion.
> GeorgiaB


I did give my opinion and would have simply left it at that but there are certain members that feel they need to attack my opinion by making rude or false comments rather then just give their opinion(as you have just done). Why did you feel it necessary to call me out? You could have left your opinion but instead felt the need to attack my opinion. I am truely sorry that you feel giving beginners only a portion of the information is adequate. I never said I did not support beginners if they wish to mix frogs. What I said is that they should gain the experience and knowledge to be successful and it is often better if they start off with a single species. It is a yes/no answer. Yes these frogs can be kept together very successfully. No, they should not be mixed unless the person has properly researched how to setup and maintain a successful mixed enclosure. If that leads to confusion then the person would hopefully choose that No they should not keep frogs period because it is too complicated.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

No.....you have given your opinion quite a few times.....now, you are trying to force your mixing _*Agenda*_ on us and using other peoples threads for your soapbox is causing a lot of people to get upset.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> No.....you have given your opinion quite a few times.....now, you are trying to force your mixing _*Agenda*_ on us and using other peoples threads for your soapbox is causing a lot of people to get upset.



Read my original post. I gave my opinion. I did not say any other member's opinion was wrong. I did not say I disagreed with another members post. I did not call anyone out to start a dialogue within the thread. I just gave my opinion based on my experience. All I have done is respond to posts that have intentionally singled me out. If they did not want a response then they should have left their opinion and not referenced or disputed mine. They also could have sent a PM. I sent a PM to you but you continue to want to post in the thread rather then communicate through PM's and that's fine. I have nothing to hide. I would rather do it through PM's to keep this from ruining a good thread. The choice is yours if you want to continue the dialogue on the forum or in the PM.


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## Rick (Apr 10, 2009)

so Jellyman and Philsuma....you guys going to completely take over this thread or what?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

.....starting a new thread now.....

Look for it...probably in the "lobby"....lol


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> .....starting a new thread now.....
> 
> Look for it...probably in the "lobby"....lol


You have lowered your level of maturity even lower then I thought possible. Way to take a simple discussion and turn it into another bickering thread. I have nothing furhter to discuss with you. Good luck on your misguided pusuit of disception.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

This conversation has now changed status from a Beginner's Discussion to a Lounge topic. Please do not add further replies to this thread.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> This conversation has now changed status from a Beginner's Discussion to a Lounge topic. Please do not add further replies to this thread.


Hmm,
seems that thread has mysteriously disappeared.

John


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

Everybody's first question as a newbie. I will tell you those will not get along. Just set up two different vivs and you can have both!


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Dear OP,

One might as well ask if Jellyman and Philsuma could successfully be housed together. At least THEY have the benefit of being the same species, similar dietary requirements, similar interests. One could not say authoritatively that it could not be done...

But I wouldn't do it.

Welcome to Dendroboard.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> Dear OP,
> 
> One might as well ask if Jellyman and Philsuma could successfully be housed together.


Well at least we wouldn't have to worry about eggs and hybrids


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Well at least we wouldn't have to worry about eggs and hybrids


Read this first thing this morning. Nice to start off the day laughing


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> Well at least we wouldn't have to worry about eggs and hybrids


...wrestling might be another matter.


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