# Best way to keep temp & humidity inside screen top



## JohnVI (May 1, 2013)

Know this conversation started in a similar thread, but I want everyone's take on how I can keep heat and mainly humidity in with my 55gallon screen top?


----------



## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

Make it something other than screen. You can lay plastic bags over a portion of it in the interim until you can get a piece of glass cut to cover some of it.


----------



## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Remove screen to completely and replace with glass.. Then get a window screen kit and make a small 1-2" vent at the rear..


----------



## Boboluke (Apr 12, 2013)

JohnVI said:


> Know this conversation started in a similar thread, but I want everyone's take on how I can keep heat and mainly humidity in with my 55gallon screen top?


If the entire top is screen you will not be able to keep the humidity up unless it is raining inside your house.



TheCoop said:


> Remove screen to completely and replace with glass.. Then get a window screen kit and make a small 1-2" vent at the rear..


This is definitely going to to be your best bet. 

Check out http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63781-screen-vent-construction-how.html


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ok don't recommend it...especially if you are even remotely new to keeping tropical animals/vivs and viv building but I believe it can be done...

I hate it when people withhold info from me, or refuse to discuss something because it is "outside the box", a place I practically live...So I don't wanna be that guy, so here goes... (Really this is not for the inexperienced)

Before we really start you need to understand that essentially you'll be relying on micro-climates to do a lot of the work to keep your animals alive. 

So here is *roughly* how I'd do it...

First...
*A heavily* planted viv...Plants produce, hold/trap humidity in/around them...that is one example of a micro climate. Another is just above the soil where the soil moisture is evaporating into the ambient air...another is in the corners, especially where heavily planted. Humidity/condensation tends to be trapped/occur there. The middle/top of viv may range from 60-40% humidity but there are going to be micro climates all in/around the plants and corners that are 70%-99%, especially at certain times of the day. 

I watch my frogs climb up and sit under lights, perch on those magnetic glass cleaners and do generally odd stuff like that in places you'd think wouldn't be comfortable for them but they seem to be able to thermo/hydro regulate pretty well as long as they have access to the moisture they need to replenish what they loose in those less then favorable conditions. 

(I've seen hoards of temperate stream frogs (leopard/bullfrog etc...) survive by hiding in forest undergrowth sucking up morning dew, when a 2-4 foot deep stream went bone dry due to a terrible drought with months of mostly 100+ temps. Not ideal conditions and definitely not something you want in your viv, but the frogs knew what to do to give themselves a shot at lasting long enough for the rains to come)

Second...
A tank that is drilled with an overflow in the drainage layer, because you're going to have to run a lot of water through this system to keep the humidity up probably. 

Third...
A very fast draining, mostly inorganic substrate (like leca)....or else you'll saturate the soil so bad running all that water through the system you'll kill most any non aquatic/bog/marsh plants

Fourth...
Automated misting system...To tricky to rely on hand misting...you'd have to be very diligent.

With 2-4 you can over mist and keep the soil from being to saturated so you have a shot at keeping some plants alive, andthe tank humidity up and not flooding the viv in process. 

Fifth...
I would have some kinda pond, or waterfall so the frogs could recharge their moisture levels rather then just relying on ambient humidity and soaking up soil moisture to survive on. (I would make this feature share its water reservoir with the main drainage layer otherwise you will constantly have to top it off/refill it due to evaporation(but make it so the frogs can't access the drainage layer))

I believe this can absolutely be done..*.I just wouldn't*....not* unless I really knew what I was doing*, and *even then it is just kinda pointless* unless you are attempting to build a large open front vivarium (which if your keeping animals in presents even more challenges to prevent escape)

It is just so much easier to do a partially vented top. You can take the plastic strip that comes with most glass tops and cut out the center of it and replace it with mesh screen or porous duck brand black AC filter foam (or similar material), to give you about a 1 inch wide strip of ventilation running the length of the tank. 

I put the lid on backwards (basically) so the strip is in the front which helps keep the glass clear. It may or may not be enough ventilation to keep the glass totally clear but it is a good place to start to guarantee the viv has the required humidity and some ventilation at least....you can usually add a fan blowing across it on an interval timer to tune it perfectly to keep the glass clear but the humidity up and condensation off the front glass except just after a misting.


----------



## JohnVI (May 1, 2013)

Thanks everyone, I Very much appreciate the advice, and I want to go the non mesh lid route now.

Here is my only issue with the glass top or plexi, I am using the deep dome fixtures that sit on the top of the mesh lids to supply heat. I have read and read about hear sources, but there is no way I can devote an entire room to a static reptile based temp. So I figured the heat coming from the top down, as heat rises might work better. So now my issue is will those glass tops take a ceramic heat lamp? I can't find a lot of threads going over heating, in their builds, so while heating the room is ideal, I just can't do it this way.

I was thinking of getting plexiglass, and cutting holes in it where the ceramic bulbs would radiate down, and then using foil tape around the edges...but again my heat is going out the top, along with all my humidity..

Has anyone used or would anyone recommend this as a main heat source? I'm doing a sectioned off full blown aquarium side, with a heater in the water. So if I get the water to say 80, will this add to the circulating air inside the tank, and along with the heat cable below, will this work to keep me @ a good temp? With my great stuff and foam background, I could run the wire through the back display? I just don't know the best way....I'm reading don't use under tank heaters, and then don't heat the the substrate...sigh....

Amazon.com: Zoo Med Reptile Heat Cable 150 Watts, 52-Feet: Pet Supplies

Also, if I'm using some type of vent system on top, do I need a fan to blow in and then pull out? The thing that worries me about adding the fan duct into the terrarium build is it might take away space, but what if the fan goes out? It seems like a extremely intrusive fix to a habitat if say your vent fan goes..just wanted to know if I need intake and exit fans if I'm doing them on top.. I want to ensure I get fresh air in.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JohnVI said:


> Thanks everyone, I Very much appreciate the advice, and I want to go the non mesh lid route now.
> 
> Here is my only issue with the glass top or plexi, I am using the deep dome fixtures that sit on the top of the mesh lids to supply heat. I have read and read about hear sources, but there is no way I can devote an entire room to a static reptile based temp. So I figured the heat coming from the top down, as heat rises might work better. So now my issue is will those glass tops take a ceramic heat lamp? I can't find a lot of threads going over heating, in their builds, so while heating the room is ideal, I just can't do it this way.
> 
> ...


Wait did I miss something? ...we are talking about a dart frog viv right? How cold is this room you'll be keeping this viv in?....In most situations you shouldn't need a heat source other then what standard room temp and normal viv lighting adds to that temp (about 2-5 degrees usually depending on what type and how much lighting you're using) Viv height makes a difference too since heat rises, shorter vivs tend to overall be warmer. 

If your temp dips into the 60's at night you're ok _(50s and below for any long duration is dangerous)...if the temp gets over the high 70's low 80's during the day you might start stressing your frogs....killing them if it gets into the high 80's-90's+ for to long. 

I've used reptile heating pads under a viv, or the stick on ones on the back of a viv for some that had anolis or geckos in them just to make sure they didn't get to cool...but typically not neccesary for darts unless the room is really cold. 

If you do need to heat your viv the easiest way is probably to just use a reptile heating pad under it....but if it has a pond that might heat the water to much for tads or fish, but you could do one that is only large enough for say half the bottom so it forms a tempature gradient...or stick one on the back of the viv about where the substrate meets the background, that will create a warmer micro climate in that area and raise overall viv temp a little....gotta be very careful when heating them though as not to over do it and turn your viv into a really hot sauna or worse...an oven.


----------



## zachxbass (Apr 21, 2008)

Yeah, good tips so far, but it would help knowing a few things. 
1. What species are you keeping
2. What temps are in the house
3. What temps you currently get in the tank
4. What temps are you trying to reach.

It sounds like heat tape/cable, or under tank heaters attached to back/ sides of the tank may be your best bet. Combined with glass tops you should be good. Typically, glass tops with fluorescent tubes on top get hotter than you need. If your house is in the low 70s, you shouldn't need extra heat, in fact most people find too much heat a bigger problem

Sent from my kindle fire using tapatalk


----------



## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

I wouldn't use Plexi-Glass. Given time, plexi will warp because of differences between humidity on both sides. Even if you were to just lay plexi on top of the screen, it still would warp and let humidity out. I do think that a passive vent is a good idea, it just can't let out too much humidity.

What I say is to trash the screen top and silicone glass in. if you just put glass on top of the screen, eventually the screen will rust away, dropping sharp, rusty metal fragments inside the vivarium/palu. Bad for fish, frogs, bugs, and probably plants. Not sure what to make of that lighting situation.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frog dude said:


> I wouldn't use Plexi-Glass. Given time, plexi will warp because of differences between humidity on both sides. Even if you were to just lay plexi on top of the screen, it still would warp and let humidity out. I do think that a passive vent is a good idea, it just can't let out too much humidity.
> 
> What I say is to trash the screen top and silicone glass in. if you just put glass on top of the screen, eventually the screen will rust away, dropping sharp, rusty metal fragments inside the vivarium/palu. Bad for fish, frogs, bugs, and probably plants. Not sure what to make of that lighting situation.


I think warpin is less of an issue in some then others,like cell cast vs extruded typesand thickness comes into play to


----------



## JohnVI (May 1, 2013)

Thanks, I neglected to give the specifics 

It's going in my basement, and will house darts.

I'm in MD, and my basement can go from the 60's to 70's, no warmer. For things to thrive, I'm thinking it needs to be warmer. The tank is a 55 gallon I'm starting a build on, just doing a boatload of data gathering from the best sources beforehand..

I have ceramic heaters, but I might just return them as its not going to fit the bill. What I'm hearing is potentially my light source will compensate for heat variance in the tank location. So, in another thread I noted LED's give off good heat. So, is there a specific led light setup used that's both efficient and economical ? I'm asking a question I know might not have an answer....am I correct in thinking the LED lights in my temp range will make up the difference...


----------



## zachxbass (Apr 21, 2008)

JohnVI said:


> Thanks, I neglected to give the specifics
> 
> It's going in my basement, and will house darts.
> 
> ...


Leds don't put much heat into tanks. They direct the heat up and into heatsinks. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) I would think fluorescent tubes on top of glass tops would give u more heat. I used to use a normal T8 double shop light on my old 55. With my house around 72-75 the tank got around 85. (Too hot) so I raised the up about 2-3 inches and had a computer fan blow across the length to maintain a temp of about 75. I was using the regular aquarium glass tops with 1"x3" vents in the plastic sections of each lid.

Hope that helps

Sent from my C5155 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

I would go with some T5 HO. they will give some heat to the Vivarium

60 - 70 F is way better than 70 - 80 F ambient temp for a frog room.

I found it to be MUCH easier to heat up a tank than it is to cool one down.

at 60 - 70 F ambient air temp in the room the tank with the lights should provide enough heat

Add a heater to the bottom of your tank if your worried. And you should be able to sit happily at 70-80F perfect for dart frogs.

Basements are the best IMO because the ground insulates the room making wild temp swings improbable. Unlike a 2nd floor on the south side of a building the middle of summer.


----------



## zachxbass (Apr 21, 2008)

Nicholas said:


> I would go with some T5 HO. they will give some heat to the Vivarium
> 
> 60 - 70 F is way better than 70 - 80 F ambient temp for a frog room.
> 
> ...


Yep, what he said

Sent from my C5155 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

JohnVI said:


> I'm in MD, and my basement can go from the 60's to 70's, no warmer. For things to thrive, I'm thinking it needs to be warmer. The tank is a 55 gallon I'm starting a build on, just doing a boatload of data gathering from the best sources beforehand..


This is actually perfect. I think like, for most darts, low to mid 70s is best. If you're interested in mantella they like low 60s, and some ranitomeya too I think. I think pumilio like it a tad warmer, like in the low to mid 80s. But the temp range you mentioned would suit everything.

Most people actually worry about their tanks overheating.


----------



## JohnVI (May 1, 2013)

All good information, so to avoid starting another thread on lid type and lighting type..can anyone point me to a money sensitive setup to use to grow on a water for fish and land for various type of terrarium plantings..

I have read all kinds, and know from the other posts, T5 HO, I can find them, but i really want to know what everyone uses, have you rigged it up differently to work well for you, etc....And for the lid, do you do straight glass? what about Air flow, do you drill into the glass lid with a hole saw to create some venting...

Thanks

Really appreciate the help with this...

I pledge to the forum, i will post my build process with images, and not just get the information, build, and disappear


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

JohnVI said:


> i really want to know what everyone uses, have you rigged it up differently to work well for you, etc....And for the lid, do you do straight glass? what about Air flow, do you drill into the glass lid with a hole saw to create some venting...


As for air flow. you want to think more cirrculation than ventilation. check this thread out it will give you alot of ideas
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/65988-peninsula-5.html

As for the question about if we use strait glass. Yes. that is best. some people use 90% or so all glass with a little vent made from a screen, but for your first build i advise against this because you dont want to kill your first frogs from drying out just because you want a super fancy set up. I would say learn how to raise frogs well, then start getting crazy with it.

as for a hole saw on glass? yeah if you want to but you will shatter the glass. You need a diamond drill bit that will run you about $30 or more. And dont drill tempered glass... I have drilled about 10 or so holes in glass myself so it is not hard if I can do it you can. .. I am currently trying to figure out if this new tank I got is tempered or not 

I just tried too find the video from a thread on how to drill glass but I lost patience with it just search for it and you will find it it explains everything.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

BTW: air flow is not really needed.


----------



## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

I like screen tops, cause its easy too comtrol your humidity by covering more or less of it. I like too use saran wrap, I put it on top or under the screen either way works for me


----------



## JohnVI (May 1, 2013)

For lighting what type of setup do you use. There a few different types of T5 setups, so just trying to see if there are any tricks of the trade instead of putting out hundreds for a hood.

Thanks again


----------



## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

I use mostly t8s a 4 footer will light 2or3 tanks nicely.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

You can use any lighting you want. Ideally, you want to aim for 6500K color temp bulbs so your plant growth is nice and your frogs look nice too.

I use two 18W CFLs to light my 20G long. I just have them in some regular desk light fixtures. You can be as creative as you want haha. I think I spent less than $30 on lighting.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Nicholas said:


> BTW: air flow is not really needed.


I'm not really a fan of this thinking...

I know there are people out there that keep frogs in completely sealed terrarium/vivariums for years.

But..
You are asking for fungal/bacterial blooms...dead plants, and generally better conditions for bad things to happen. There doesn't have to be a ton of airflow/ventilation...but a little ventilation like a 1 inch strip running the length of the tank will usually suffice and you might be surprised how much airflow that introduces at least compared to a completely sealed tank....not hard, and better for everyone (frogs/plants/you) usually.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Dendro Dave said:


> I know there are people out there that keep frogs in completely sealed terrarium/vivariums for years.


You can also have air flow in a completely sealed viv with the addition of a fan =]


----------



## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Check out my video...

Vivarium tops, screen, acrylic, and glass.... Beginner discussion. - YouTube


----------



## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

If you're getting 60's and 70's you should be pretty good...


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> I know there are people out there that keep frogs in completely sealed terrarium/vivariums for years.
> 
> But..
> 
> a 1 inch strip running the length of the tank will usually suffice and you might be surprised how much airflow that introduces at least compared to a completely sealed tank....not hard, and better for everyone (frogs/plants/you) usually.


 
I agree with this thinking.

But is it absolutly required? No.
Is it frowned upon to do this? Yes.

Totally agreed.


----------



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

hypostatic said:


> You can also have air flow in a completely sealed viv with the addition of a fan


Great way to grow orchids too.


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Dendro Dave said:


> Ok don't recommend it...especially if you are even remotely new to keeping tropical animals/vivs and viv building but I believe it can be done...
> 
> I hate it when people withhold info from me, or refuse to discuss something because it is "outside the box", a place I practically live...So I don't wanna be that guy, so here goes... (Really this is not for the inexperienced)
> 
> ...



This ^ All Of It, is the most freaking beautiful, brilliant post Ive come across since being here, and in general.

Out Of The Box and into Truthful Dimensions!!!


----------



## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

# 5 is my personal favorite.

Ive actually made it a kind of law, by solar plexus instinct, in building my environments, to always have a pond. If they had to be shallow, I made more than one. Or a broad strip or graduated side with stones breaking the surface and leading, ie; softly demarcating the edge. I have never lost the smallest or most fey to drowning. 

I have worked with having to replace the water which I did in the AM and Evening. If I passed by mid day and saw it needed a change - I didnt wait. 

Retro horticulture siphon bulbs, portable siphons ( super user friendly 6 bucks at Ace Hardware, add a length of polyvinyl flexible tubing) and the trusty gravel vac were my little pool tools.

Im only now embarking on Leca drainage layer vivs . Ive maintained them but have not made my own.


----------

