# Highland Bronze sluggish



## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

Hello!

New here, but I’ve been stalking for years. Finally got my frogs about 10 months ago. They were 4ish months at the time. One of them has always been on the thin side, but nothing that had gotten worse— until somehow it injured a back leg and it wasn’t putting weight on it. Took it to the vet and the vet said it was healing on its own and to just keep supporting her.

Shes since been isolated in a 5 gal with leaf litter, fake plants and pothos for at least a month. Giving her amphibian ringers daily during this time. Vet recommended adding a Reptisun UVB nano 5 watt, so we did that as well. She is now using the leg seemingly normally, but is still thin and sluggish. 

Since there still hasn’t been any weight gain, I started doing daily soaks in calcium and Vitamin A daily this past week. She’s very sluggish. She will sometimes eat, but only if the flies walk directly in front of her, she won’t hunt at all. She doesn’t move around the tank much either.

Temp is always 70-78 in the plant room, it’s on the lower side of this on the side of the room she’s on (away from the windows). Humidity is 70 - 99%.

Would it be smart to move her to the Exoterra Nano mini (8x8x8) to make the flies easier to catch? Humidity also fluctuates less in that tank. Anything else I can do? I figured if it was contagious the other 3 would have it, but they’re all perfectly happy.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

That frog doesn't look good. Moving it to another enclosure won't bring any real help. My initial guess is a supplement problem but to help us troubleshoot answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste -- please don't quote because that makes it hard to read the responses):

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ? Were they WC (wild collected) or CB (captive bred)?

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

I did answer most of these questions in the post already. But I’ll do it again here to make it clearer.


1. What species ? 
Highland Bronze. Acquired about 10 months ago. They were ~4 months.

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? 
Measure temps with a temperature/humidity combo meter. Low: 70, High: 76. 

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?
Reptisun Nano UVB 5 watt. No added heat.

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?
RO water. Hand misting daily. Humidity is 70-99%. 

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they). 
5 gal tank for isolation. Mesh lid over a partial glass one for ventilation.

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?
Melanogaster & Hydei, every other day. I primarily alternate between Repashy Cal Plus and ZooMed Calcium with D3. Also occasionally give Repashy Vit A plus and Repashy Supervite. Kept in fridge and dated (oldest supplement was purchased in May this year). 

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?
No current tank mates. Previously had 3 tank mates, 2 males and another female.

























8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?
Sluggish. Not hunting. Thin. Previously injured a leg that caused the need for separation that seems to have mostly healed. She is putting weight on it again (vet said she was healing fine). Still not eating well. 

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?
I have been pushing her into a daily soak container (Calcium & Vit A) with my hand. No sprays of any kind near the tank.

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Could you post a couple photos of the other frogs, and of the viv that they all were in?


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

main tank. Screen over glass lid again for airflow.


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

2 of the other 3. One is hiding somewhere and I’m not going to pull the tank apart to find him.


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

I also have another tank with 4 healthy adult Fine Spots, so I doubt it’s something I’m doing wrong. Something is wrong with this poor frog. Any suggestions on how to help it?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

What size (gallons, dimensions, whatever) is the viv that the four auratus lived in?


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

A 20 long. I’m not sure how that is going to help the frog that’s been quarantined for over a month without improvement though. :/
I’m pretty sure I injured it by chasing it around to remove them when I did a replant of the viv. I have cameras on the tanks and there has been zero evidence of wrestling. They do like to launch themselves off the bromeliads though so it could have been that. Why would the leg heal but it still hasn’t gained the weight back? It has actually lost even more weight since I removed it from the main tank.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Rubberduc said:


> I’m not sure how that is going to help the frog that’s been quarantined for over a month without improvement though


It's like when you go to the hospital and the doctor asks you questions that are seemingly unrelated to the reason you came in. You never know what information might lead to an answer. 





Rubberduc said:


> Since there still hasn’t been any weight gain, I started doing daily soaks in calcium and Vitamin A daily this past week


Was this recommended by the veterinarian?


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

Nope that wasn’t recommended by the vet. I found it on DendroZones YouTube channel.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

You can't help something recover if you don't know what it is suffering from. Taking a look at the situation it was in when it took ill can give clues as to what is wrong with it. That's why the questions.

The supplement rotation doesn't seem to have any reasoning behind it; just Repashy Calcium Plus would make more sense, though what you're doing there isn't obviously terrible. Unless the calcium and A you're using for the bath are water soluble forms, that's just more stress on the frog.

A 20L with no climbing opportunities, and inadequate ventilation, for four auratus could well be expected to lead at least one of them to simply waste away either from just a poor environment or conflict with the others or both. That's my guess as to what happened, and immune decline/failure to eat well/something similar just wore it down. Poor housing leads to a general decline in health. Happens a lot, not sure of all the mechanisms that could be at play.

FWIW, shooting the UVB mostly through glass in the way that it is in the photo will lead to essentially no UVB reaching the frog. Not your fault, but the vet's 'throw a UVB on there' advice without a lot of detail (and without measuring the level of UVB in the places the frog sits) is about par for the course in terms of current UVB practices (which are poor; again not your fault, just a chronic problem in herp care lately).

Often when exotics start to show any sign of illness they're already much more far gone than can be seen. I hope someone comes along with great advice for you, but I don't think the situation looks good for that one frog. I'm sorry. 

Getting the remaining frogs into a more suitable viv would be very good.


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

There is a couple of inches of ventilation the length of the lid of the 20 gal long tank.
I injured it replanting the tank I’m pretty sure, although it’s now healing, just not gaining weight.


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

Here’s some science on frogs and topical supplementation of Vitamin A. If levels are low, oral is not enough to bring levels back up to “normal”. A COMPARISON OF ORAL AND TOPICAL VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENTATION IN AFRICAN FOAM-NESTING FROGS (CHIROMANTIS XERAMPELINA) on JSTOR


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

The other supplements I use were recommended to me by the frogs breeder. He said he uses the Vitamin A once a month or so and the Supervite on occasion. Josh’s Frogs recommends using two types of calcium in rotation.


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## Rubberduc (4 mo ago)

In case anyone else happens to read this, I gave her 3 doses of metronidazole. 50 mg pill in 50 ml of RO. One drop each day for 3 days. She’s still on the thin side but back to acting like a frog! Apparently the natural bacteria can get out of whack in a frog in a weakened state.


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