# Shipping with phase panels - example



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thought this might be of interest.

Shipped some frogs from MA to CO (temps 50s-30s). Outer box was approx. 2 inches thick and inner box about 1inch. Two phase packets included (in liquid form) in outer box, shipped overnight for hold at PO in CO. 

Temps below upon arrival:

Phase 22 packs are pretty much solid but not as hard as a fully solid pack.

External box temp at the post office -- 79 F 
External box temp at the house --70 F
pulled off styro top and IMMEDIATELY checked at -- 71.8
pulled off inner styro top and IMMEDIATELY checked at 72.3

Good stuff!


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Next time take some pictures of how you use and package them. This post is very comforting and timely.

David



stemcellular said:


> Thought this might be of interest.
> 
> Shipped some frogs from MA to CO (temps 50s-30s). Outer box was approx. 2 inches thick and inner box about 1inch. Two phase packets included (in liquid form) in outer box, shipped overnight for hold at PO in CO.
> 
> ...


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I have been using phase packs for over a year now and have had great results. They are great for shipping in cold or hot weather. I put them on top of my lights to liquify them when temps are low, and put them in the fridge or freezer to ship when temps are high. The best part is they are reusable. The only downside is the cost, but then again it is better than losing frogs.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I use rack lights as well, or hot water.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

dmartin72 said:


> Next time take some pictures of how you use and package them. This post is very comforting and timely.
> 
> David


I would be the recipient. I've got pictures for you of how they were packaged. Can't download them right now but will soon. These will be posted ONLY as part of stemcellular's phase 22 tutorial and is not to be taken as any sort of feedback. (my disclaimer since feedback is not allowed here)


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

great, thanks Doug. that would be helpful.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

So when you liquify them, they turn into a cooling liquid that absorbs heat? Also, if you're using a sealed Styrofoam cooler box inside a cardboard box with a Phase 22 pack, do you really need two of them (one on each side)?

I would charge a $10 deposit to be refunded upon receiving them back with an option for the buyer to keep them for later use.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Doug...I really appreciate your constant helpful nature on this board. It's very uplifting to say the least.



Pumilo said:


> I would be the recipient. I've got pictures for you of how they were packaged. Can't download them right now but will soon. These will be posted ONLY as part of stemcellular's phase 22 tutorial and is not to be taken as any sort of feedback. (my disclaimer since feedback is not allowed here)


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## Gumby (May 27, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I would be the recipient. I've got pictures for you of how they were packaged. Can't download them right now but will soon. These will be posted ONLY as part of stemcellular's phase 22 tutorial and is not to be taken as any sort of feedback. (my disclaimer since feedback is not allowed here)


Can't wait to see the pics! I'm curious as to what frogs you are getting  I am also anxiously awaiting the pics of how they were packaged. I am going to be shipping shortly and this will be VERY helpful since I am more of a visual learner haha.

Thanks,
Chris


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

dmartin72 said:


> Doug...I really appreciate your constant helpful nature on this board. It's very uplifting to say the least.


You are quite welcome, dmartin. I've learned so much from so many helpful people here on the board. Anytime I can pass some of that back I'm glad to do it.
Here are the promised pictures...from an unpacking point of view!

I will refrain from any comments about my opinion of the packing job shown as I don't want it to be interpreted as feedback. This thread could educate a lot of people about phase 22.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Awesome packaging! Are those Cryopak's the same thing as Phase 22's? I have some that are flat and rectangular flat plastic pieces that have solid liquid in them. When do you get those Styrofoam cooler boxes with a storage spot for gel packs and such?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

There are Phase 22 panels and Phase 22 gel packs. I've received the gel packs a couple of times now. I've only seen pictures of the panels. I have seen both of them offered on TCP's website Phase 22 Link


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## Arizona Tropicals (Feb 15, 2010)

Even scored some Ficus Panama  great plant!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Arizona Tropicals said:


> Even scored some Ficus Panama  great plant!


It is my go to shipping plant. I stay away from using spag moss. I use a ton of ficus and some other cuttings as they are incredibly lightweight and also retrain shape well. Basically, they provide a net which prevents frogs from tossing around. The way I pack, you can toss the container around and the frogs wont really move.


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Oct 13, 2008)

dmartin72 said:


> Awesome packaging! Are those Cryopak's the same thing as Phase 22's? I have some that are flat and rectangular flat plastic pieces that have solid liquid in them. When do you get those Styrofoam cooler boxes with a storage spot for gel packs and such?


I prefer the cryopak gel packs myself. Their quite a bit lighter and much easier to position where you want them. I sell them for $1.95, quite a bit cheaper than the hard case ones Phase 22 gel pouch - Alpha Pro Breeders


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> There are Phase 22 panels and Phase 22 gel packs. I've received the gel packs a couple of times now. I've only seen pictures of the panels. I have seen both of them offered on TCP's website Deprecated Browser Error


 
I've used both and now I go with the panels as the stiffness makes it easy to use place them in the container. If you are using a small shipping box, the panels can even be used as a divider dividing the box. 

Since the panels are reusable, I offer a refund if they mail them and the box back to me.. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Arizona Tropicals said:


> Even scored some Ficus Panama  great plant!


Yeah, I did not have that one. I've already got it cleaned up and planted in two of my vivs!


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

you said you had packs in the inner and outer box. I only saw the one location. was there another under the frog container?


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

i'm sorry, no you didn't. i need to read gooder lol. Great post though. I've been trying to get comfortable with the idea so i can start shipping. Where do you purchase your styro boxes?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Have any of guys done any kind of testing with these gel packs? Placed a temp data logger in an insulated box with the gel packs to monitor the temps and then just set the box out in the cold overnight? Or maybe just in your refrigerator overnight?

I'd be curious to know what kind of extreme temps these gel packs will perform well under. I may have to get one of you guys to send me some for testing. It's just the kind of thing I LOVE to waste my time doing


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Gary, they are the same makeup as the phase panels, just in a less structured form. Less surface area as well.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> Gary, they are the same makeup as the phase panels, just in a less structured form. Less surface area as well.


YEP, I realize that.

The ones I use weigh about 2 lbs a piece and I use 2 per box when I ship. I think the ones you guys are using weigh 6-8 oz.

With the testing I've done on mine they will hold up against extreme cold and extreme heat. I guess I'm wondering if mine are overkill.

I'm also wondering if there's an outside temperature range where yours will work well in. Will they work if the temps get down into the sinlge digits, or get up into triple digits?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I think it might also depend on the boxes you are using as well. For severe temps, I have 4-5 inch insulated boxes. Combined with 4 panels, ain't nothing going to mess up my day!


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> For severe temps, I have 4-5 inch insulated boxes.


OH MAN!!! I would LOVE some of those


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

If anybody is interested I starting doing some testing on these Cryopak PCM gel packs. I'm posting the results in this thread - http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66880-testing-testing.html


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

I am sure it is posted somewhere else, but it is 2 am... I am not completely clear how these phase panels actually work. Somebody please explain it to me. Also, do you use them in conjunction with heat packs/ice packs? Would unfrozen ice gel packs accomplish the same objective?

Thanks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

JeremyHuff said:


> I am sure it is posted somewhere else, but it is 2 am... I am not completely clear how these phase panels actually work. Somebody please explain it to me. Also, do you use them in conjunction with heat packs/ice packs? Would unfrozen ice gel packs accomplish the same objective?
> 
> Thanks


I can't give you the science behind it, but I can tell you how they work. First, an unfrozen ice gel pack would NOT do the same thing. They replace heat packs. They replace ice packs. You do not NEED double walled Styrofoam with the packs separated from the frogs. The pack can touch the frogs container. They keep it warm (around 71 F) when it is too cold outside. They keep it cool (around 71 F) when it is too hot outside. You can ship from somewhere cool to arrive somewhere warm, without any problems! 
If you are shipping from somewhere cool, you gently warm the pack until the "gel" completely melts, to maybe about 74 or 75 F. 
If you are shipping from somewhere warm, you slightly cool the pack until the "gel" completely hardens, to maybe around 68 or 69 F.

I hope this sums it up pretty well in layman's terms. If anybody with more experience spots anything wrong, please let us know.


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Oct 13, 2008)

JeremyHuff said:


> I am sure it is posted somewhere else, but it is 2 am... I am not completely clear how these phase panels actually work. Somebody please explain it to me. Also, do you use them in conjunction with heat packs/ice packs? Would unfrozen ice gel packs accomplish the same objective?
> 
> Thanks


I use both if temperatures are below freezing.


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

Also in a pinch.. and a little 'off-label', last summer it was reaching mid-90's and we had a minor power outage about 18 hours in length and I had to protect my mantellas. I moved them to a few 5-gallon tanks with several coco huts and pothos and some wet paper towels and added a phase 22 panel on each end as well. I placed a Coralife digital thermometer w/probe in there too. The room reached 84 degrees when the tank was about a steady 75 (fully sealed). I don't know if anyone tried this before to verify these work in the manner I just described. If someone else did, I too would like to hear their results. I wasn't sure if these can be reused and haven't used them since. I did keep them however and it's great to know that these are indeed reusable. 

Peter Keane


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Peter Keane said:


> Also in a pinch.. and a little 'off-label', last summer it was reaching mid-90's and we had a minor power outage about 18 hours in length and I had to protect my mantellas. I moved them to a few 5-gallon tanks with several coco huts and pothos and some wet paper towels and added a phase 22 panel on each end as well. I placed a Coralife digital thermometer w/probe in there too. The room reached 84 degrees when the tank was about a steady 75 (fully sealed). I don't know if anyone tried this before to verify these work in the manner I just described. If someone else did, I too would like to hear their results. I wasn't sure if these can be reused and haven't used them since. I did keep them however and it's great to know that these are indeed reusable.
> 
> Peter Keane


What a neat use for these, Peter! That could certainly be helpful to some people. If you tried that with an ice pack you could end up with a frozen frog, but they could hop right onto a phase 22 without any harm!
The phase 22 packs are actually infinately reusable. (At least until you poke a hole in it!)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> The phase 22 packs are actually infinately reusable. (At least until you poke a hole in it!)


That is definetly an advantage with the panels. They are much harder to puncture. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> That is definetly an advantage with the panels. They are much harder to puncture.
> 
> Ed


So true Ed, but lets not forget the possibilities of Seal-A-Meal vacuum packers.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

I tested some of my Phase 22 Panels last night and they did not hold the temperature. I activated them by soaking them in warm water.
Any ideas? How long does it take them to activate?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Bcs TX said:


> I tested some of my Phase 22 Panels last night and they did not hold the temperature. I activated them by soaking them in warm water.
> Any ideas? How long does it take them to activate?


How did you run your test? How long did you soak the panels to warm them up?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I usually condition mine to the point where they are totally melted, and up to about 80 F


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

These are the panals not the packs.
I put it in hot water for 5-6 minutes or so.
Tested it hourly with a temp gun, every hour the temp whend down quite a bit.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Bcs TX said:


> I tested some of my Phase 22 Panels last night and they did not hold the temperature. I activated them by soaking them in warm water.
> Any ideas? How long does it take them to activate?


When they are in the liquid state they are activated; however, it takes a little longer than 5-6 minutes to get the panels up to 80-85. I get mine up to 85, and the basic test I do involves slowly heating water up warmer and warmer and putting in the Phase 22 pack/panel each time. When the water cools down a little, I repeat the test, making it hotter each time. 

I stop heating this way when the pack holds its warmth in my hand for about a minute. It feels lukewarm at 85 degrees. If it cools soon after heating, it needs some more of this reheating treatment. It can take about 30 minutes of this with the larger panels in my experience, and 10-15 with the smaller paks. Probably what you are experiencing has to do with the outside portion being heated while the core remains cooler, which cools it back down rapidly.

There is probably a more efficient way of heating them up completely, but I don't want to risk their bursting. If you notice them expanding, remove them from the hot water immediately.

I have shipped twice this winter with just the panel, no heat pack, and no death or significant stress from shipping.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Bcs TX said:


> These are the panals not the packs.
> I put it in hot water for 5-6 minutes or so.
> Tested it hourly with a temp gun, every hour the temp whend down quite a bit.


5-6 minutes isn't long enough.

For me I put them in a tub of water with an aquarium heater set at 74F, and let it run overnight. Personally I think that's the best way.

I've heard of others placing them on top of their viv under the lights for a few hours.

Also, the panels are not meant to hold the temps at say 80F, even if that's what you warm them up to. They're meant to hold the temps in the low to mid 70's.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bcs TX said:


> These are the panals not the packs.
> I put it in hot water for 5-6 minutes or so.
> Tested it hourly with a temp gun, every hour the temp whend down quite a bit.


 
This isn't surprising as the panel is dealing with a huge volume of air, the energy change is going to be much greater than that in a much smaller insulated volume like the typical shipping styrofoam containers. 

Ed


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## Allyn Loring (Sep 30, 2008)

Bcs TX said:


> I tested some of my Phase 22 Panels last night and they did not hold the temperature. I activated them by soaking them in warm water.
> Any ideas? How long does it take them to activate?


I usually "Prime" them for at least 24hrs !


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## Allyn Loring (Sep 30, 2008)

This info is just another reason we could use a sticky for shipping!
Allyn


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## Marc (Feb 3, 2008)

gary1218 said:


> 5-6 minutes isn't long enough.
> 
> For me I put them in a tub of water with an aquarium heater set at 74F, and let it run overnight. Personally I think that's the best way.
> 
> ...


This is exactly how I do it too. Though my warming tub aquarium heater is set at 77F.  I keep my fruitfly containers on top of this tub to keep the temp stable through out the colder season. I made a thread to show my tub. I keep several of my hard sided Phase-22 panels inside it, floating on the water. Just take one out and shake it and it is ready to go when ever I ship frogs.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

I will be shipping from a "cool" place to a "warm" place. Place of origin afternoon high 73-75 to an overnight low of 35-40. The destination will be 54 overnight low with a daytime high of 85.

Is there any reason to pack with 2 packs, one primed for warm and the other primed for cool? Would this just cause the packs to neutralize each other quicker? 

Right now I am thinking of priming two Cryopacks in the fridge for this specific shipping scenario. Could someone chime in on this and correct me if I am way off base?

I think a Phase Pack/Panel sticky would be an excellent resource. Diagrams, pictures, specific guidelines would be so helpful.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

holidayhanson said:


> I will be shipping from a "cool" place to a "warm" place. Place of origin afternoon high 73-75 to an overnight low of 35-40. The destination will be 54 overnight low with a daytime high of 85.
> 
> Is there any reason to pack with 2 packs, one primed for warm and the other primed for cool? Would this just cause the packs to neutralize each other quicker?
> 
> ...


Hey Eric, I have shipped with panels shipped for both hot and cold weather in the same box. Personally, I'd go with one hard side panel in the solid phase and one hard side panel in the liquid phase. We were just discussing this the other day. Here's the thread. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/87142-phase-22-pack-already-liquified.html


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Here is a pretty easy to digest article about shipping with phase change materials. 

It suggests using both liquid and solidified phase change packets is recommended. 

Devices and Methods for Maintenance of Temperature and Pressure During Islet Shipment


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## halldj154 (Aug 30, 2012)

Cryopak, the makers of the Phase 22, have recently released a line of shipping systems designed to ship reptiles and amphibians that incorporate the phase 22 pouch with a hotpack. They will also supply test data upon request. This seems to me like an ideal setup because they are the original creators/makers of Phase 22.


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