# 2006 Pumilio Imports: New Morphs



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

<POST HIJACK: THIS NEW THREAD IS IN REFERENCE TO THE post here: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14530 , Catfur>


Without site data, and considering i havent even seen most if not all those types, are we sure they are legal?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^^ I'm betting that this is a shipment of frogs that probably just came in.

that being said, emailed


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

is this normal or safe? I am really wet behind the ears, but when we are talking $135 a frog, I'm thinking to myself, do they have parasites, what could be wrong with them, will they even make it to me alive. Of course they are amazingly gorgeous, but if anyone could clue me in either through pm or here, I would appreciate it.


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## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

:shock:


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

If these a frogs fresh off the boat then yes, they will probably have parasites. It depends on the seller, but i know several keep their new imports for a week or so and treat them with panacur/sulfa. I don't know whether simply natural does that or not. Given that we don't have locality info we can't really say anything, although several of the pictures look like morphs that go for A LOT of money. for instance to me, the first and last picture look like christobal, which i personally find the most attractive of the pums. I am wary about someone posting their first post with "new imports" of pumilio. but at the same time i want to think that somone would not post smuggled frogs in the open like this as they must surely know at least one person on here is going to contact F&W to see if there were any pumilio shipments/report possible smuggled frogs because, well a lot of people on here (myself included) really look down on smuggling.

Getting back on topic, if these are WC then it can be a real crap shoot with whether the frogs survive, but 135 is a VERY good price for the pictured morphs, unless a boat load of them start arriving soon. when glenn first brought in the man creeks he was wanting 250 a frog and many of them died


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## El_Rana (May 29, 2004)

:shock: Are these hybrids?????


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Most Pumilio Besides the ones known to a specific locality are hybrids. I guess its in lines where two species meet. Most of the frogs in the pics Can be found in more then one place and there are so many more types of pumilio that we still have not seen.


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## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

If you right click on the pictures, and select Properties you can tease out the names of some of the morphs.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

WOW! Just when you thought you'd seen them all!


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Thank Rob lol 

Wish all of them had names =)


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

please someone with experience buy many of these and make it to where I can get some later on down the road. These are just gorgeous!!! I am just amazed.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

^YES!!! Man I wish I had the experience and money to get some of these. What incredible frogs.



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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I have split out this topic, please discuss these new morphs here, any posts in the classifieds should pertain directly to the ad (I.E. notices or questions to the seller), any that don't will be ruthlessly culled. Please keep this topic (the one right here) within the acceptable bounds of discussion.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Personally, I think they look like very interesting basti morphs. The variation in pums on bastimentos is pretty extreme, so they could easily be some crazy patterned bastis. Then again, that's only a guess and as there is no collection data there really isn't a way to prove anything. Beautiful frogs though.

Jordan


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2006)

Some of the tags they are described as in Properties look very similar to the forms on tropical-experience.nl

If you click Properties on pic #10 it says Rio Branco. On http://www.tropical-experience.nl it lists that as "Protected" How could they be imported if they're protected? I'll post the link, as I think the pictures are copyrighted.

http://www.tropical-experience.nl/pumilio3.php?menu=1&submenu=2

It's colormorph #34

Nevertheless, these are some interesting morphs. My favorites are 1,4,8,9,10, and 11. My favorite pum out of all of them is Red Cristobal. I hope Cristobals get established in the hobby so when I'm ready...


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

How can they have morph names when there isn't collection data? There could easily be frogs that look like the one's in the morphguide but aren't necessarily. Who knows though, I'm waiting to hear what Simply Natural has to say.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2006)

If they have a store open to the public I could drive down there and check them out. They're about 1.5-2 hours away. I wish I had money and enough experience for them. :?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

i think the names on the pictures just correspond to what they look like on the pumilio morph guide. much like what happened with the man creeks/almirante. i too like the "christobal", i'm currently trying to get 4 from them.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2006)

Has anyone seen Cristobals at shows? Is anyone currently breeding them?


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

No one is ever going to find a cristobal at a show, and I highly doubt that is a real cristobal. Christobal's aren't even sold as far as I know.


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## asydabass (Jul 12, 2005)

Jordan B said:


> How can they have morph names when there isn't collection data? There could easily be frogs that look like the one's in the morphguide but aren't necessarily. Who knows though, I'm waiting to hear what Simply Natural has to say.


The smartest reply I've read. 

As for what Squidbillie said, no they do not have a store, nor are they open to the public. 

The tags on the pictures are probably just for the sellers personal reference; and not intended for the public to see. Also, to jump to conclusions that they are a protected morph, because one website features a similar looking color is just absurd.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I know Rich Frye is working with Christobals.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm a little wary of this importation. I'm pretty surprised that this is the first any of us are hearing about it. I'm also surprised that so few of the morphs pictured correspond to anything I've ever seen before. (Although I'm no Pumilio wizard myself) I think it might be a little irresponsible to start buying these up _rapidamente_ and breeding or selling. Would there be any way to run a DNA analysis on these to compare them to the morphs that they resmble? That said, I still want 10 of each.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2006)

But Rich Frye has access to alot rarer frogs than the average hobbyist does. Establishing them in the hobby would take dozens of breeding pairs. But, it isn't impossible for them to be common one day.



> Also, to jump to conclusions that they are a protected morph, because one website features a similar looking color is just absurd.


The point of my question was to ask, what's to keep people from importing protected morphs? If the government inspects a shipment and questions the origin of a certain group of frogs, they could just lie. It would be especially easy to lie if there was no collection data. The frogs are too variable to have a label put on them.

Dane, wouldn't pumilio, as they are the same species, have the same genomes? (If that term applies to frogs)


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

My comment on the Christobals was directed at Jordan B b/c he said that he didn't think they were even sold. If Rich can get them, I'm sure a handful of other breeders out there have them too. Same as they do granuliferus and other rare pum related/pum cousins.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Cool pumilio, no denying that, whatever the outcome of the whole thing...

Ross, all living organisms have genomes, a term referring to the total (haploid) content of the genetic material in an organism. Viewed on a large scale, species' genomes have very high degrees of congruence and would indeed be very hard to tell apart. Advances in biochemical and genetic sciences have, however, allowed for resolution of genetic sequences at the base-pair level, and this is what allows for the differentiation of even one individual from another by using realtively simple, fairly cheap tests. I won't go into the details (and there's more than one way to do it) but certain regions within the genome can be/usually are highly variable and unique to individuals. You may have heard of techniques called PCR, RFLP, etc, possibly even on a crime show. PCR stands for polymerase chain reaction, a process in which an enzyme (polymerase) is used to make many many copies of a region of DNA. RFLP stands for restriction-fragment length polymorphism, sort of a fancy way of saying "differently sized pieces." In an RFLP analysis, unique segments (short pieces, usually) are cut in different ways by the same enzyme, because the enzyme only cuts at a certain base-pair sequence, which doesn't occurr in exactly the same place in all individuals. PCR can be used to make many copies of these short pieces, which is a whole lot easier than trying to "look" at just one piece. Analyses can be run on these segments (like running them through a gel) to draw conclusions about the relative relatedness of the sequences and hence the individuals. The difference in size of these cut pieces is due to genetic differences in individuals, and can be used to distinguish between two organisms. That is a simplified overview, but I think you get the idea.

All of which is a long way to say that there are ways of performing genetic comparisons to get resolution at several different levels. However, your point is good with regards to morph; I do not know if morph-specific sequences have been identified yet that would allow for the sort of comparative test needed...


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

> Dane, wouldn't pumilio, as they are the same species, have the same genomes? (If that term applies to frogs)


I would assume that there has to be some variation in the phenotypes of each morph to produce the color and pattern differences that we see. I have no evidence to substantiate this assumption, but I recall reading about toe clippings being used in a previous experiment regarding tincs that was able to track a given individual back to its natural locale based on field data.

Edit: sounds like Npaull gave a pretty good description of the process.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Squidbillie said:


> But Rich Frye has access to alot rarer frogs than the average hobbyist does. Establishing them in the hobby would take dozens of breeding pairs. But, it isn't impossible for them to be common one day.


Some of the morphs Rich works with belong to a pumilio project at MSU, and can't be offered for sale. I believe the christobals are part of MSU but again, i'm not the person to ask about this. The best person to talk to about this would be Rich, so if you want more info I would suggest sending him an email. 



Squidbillie said:


> > Also, to jump to conclusions that they are a protected morph, because one website features a similar looking color is just absurd.
> 
> 
> The point of my question was to ask, what's to keep people from importing protected morphs? If the government inspects a shipment and questions the origin of a certain group of frogs, they could just lie. It would be especially easy to lie if there was no collection data. The frogs are too variable to have a label put on them.


What's to keep people from importing protected morphs? Nothing, really. Those morphs are not actually protected as far as I know. It is just that Tropical-Experience isn't posting the location info, so they are protecting smugglers from going down there with 600 film canisters and leaving with the whole population of guarumo river or whatever else is listed as protected. I thought that you need collection data to import something, but maybe not. I've already ventured further into the realm of speculation than I wanted to though.

Jordan


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2006)

> I would assume that there has to be some variation in the phenotypes of each morph to produce the color and pattern differences that we see. I have no evidence to substantiate this assumption, but I recall reading about toe clippings being used in a previous experiment regarding tincs that was able to track a given individual back to its natural locale based on field data.
> 
> Edit: sounds like Npaull gave a pretty good description of the process.


This is interesting. This would probably be the only sure way to distinguish where a certain morph came from. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone in the hobby has the equipment, time, or money necessary for decoding all of the different morphs' genomes.

Yes he did give a good description of the process lol.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

I've heard of simply natural, and prior to clayton moderating some posts Ed's fly meat vouched for marcus as a responsible and trustworthy importer/frogger. That is all i really needed to hear, i have longed for christobal's for as long as i've been interested in pumilio. I'm not really concerned with whether these are from the same local, the look like christobal and the pattern is what i'm interested in. He also isn't marketing these as expensive incredibly rare morphs, so i don't really have a problem picking up some (if it turns out they have 4 of the same morph that i want). I believe the man creeks didn't have locality info with their shipments either. Previous shipments have been widely publicized for pre-orders. I can totally understand someone bringing in a shipment of pums under the radar so to speak, would allow them time to inspect the shipment, and quarantine w/o tons of people breathing down their necks saying gimme, gimme, gimme


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Even with that said, I'd rather wait a month or two and get some at a higher price after the typical post-importation die offs have weeded out the more sickly frogs, and after the more experienced breeders that can afford that kind risk can verify that they're in good health.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

My guess is that there will be more importations and the prices will get lower.  If you have the money and really want some of these very attractive, tempting frogs buy some. Ultimately, you never know when the importations will stop. To ensure the frogs stay healthy buy some panacur and some other typical drugs from Dr. Frye, it will only cost about $75-100 for a variety pack. Don't forget to use proper quarantine procedures!!!
On another note, I got in on that first shipment of pumilio from Glenn and paid $300 each for 4 probable pairs. It was expensive and somewhat of a mistake. But live and learn. That being said, where's my checkbook.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

well i havent heard back from them yet....i was probably to late ;(

Wish they'd post in this thread or their original classified ad.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

well i havent heard back from them yet....i was probably to late ;(

Wish they'd post in this thread or their original classified ad.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2006)

I think it is just strange that suddenly so many new morphs pops up from nothing. Even in Europe we haven't seen any of the "new" morphs shown in that ad. No pics, no data, nothing. 

I hope nobody is messing around with some pumilio's in panama :?


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## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

Woah, just when i thought it was safe to peek into the classifieds. 

Everyone needs to chill out a bit though. These frogs are probably legal and not hybrids. He (or she)would have to be crazy to list publicly, illegal specimens. I suppose an unscrupulous person might hybridize pumilio, and list the cb offspring as WC new imports, but that also sounds crazy to me. Considering the cyber lynching he would recieve.

Hopefully all is well and these guys will come in a few more times. More hopefully i can find someone who wants to trade CB man creeks for them. Any takers. 

The real question is has anyone had any contact with these guys (SDP or whatnot), who even without knowing i thank for sharing these photos and giving us a shot at purchasing them without just privately selling them.

Frog till the wheels fall off.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

From what I'm hearing about Marcus's reputation, he typically keeps his frogs till they are clean then ships them out. So any fresh importation die off is going to be on him, not someone who buys them. I know someone who talked to Marcus on the phone at length about these frogs the morning after they were listed and the impression and and I are getting is that these are legit, but they just were not expected to come in. 

My .0135 cents.



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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

FYI - Marcus does not treat that I am aware of.

He does allow them to acclimate.

s


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

First off, I think everyone needs to remember that morphs are simply labels given by hobbyists to designate usually a location or population of frogs. Second, there has never been and will never be a complete and definitive "guide" of morphs of all pumilio that occur in Panama or any other place for that matter. The morph guides that are out there are a starting point and are limited to animals that have previously been brought in or places that have been commonly visited. Third, the variation inherent in these animals means that you can have animals with varying degrees of similarity to other morphs. Fourth, the people in Panama who are raising/collecting (please don't rehash the WC vs Farmed debate here) and exporting these animals in general are not hobbyists and likely will never place much importance on locality data (ie - morphs). It would be nice if they could be convinced that it would help in terms of selling the animals but I just don't see that happening. So all these factors contribute to the confusion that comes into play when these new morphs are introduced into the hobby. We saw it with the almirante/man creek and with the bruno/chiriqui grande/chiriqui river. Until locality information was given they were simply named by what they most resembled. When the locality was made known, it was realized that the original names were in error and they were changed to reflect the new information. Even with locality data it's not always easy to decide what morph a frog is. The man creek morph is simply the best guess based on locality information. Same with Chiriqui River, and that name didn't exist prior to those frogs coming in. So without locality data the importers (Valentina and Marcus) are forced to try to put names on things simply by looks. The existing guides are the only thing they have to go by. In this case there are pumilio morphs that visually don't match anything that has previously been brought in so I think they are doing their best under less that ideal conditions. 

I think people need to stop and think before immediately jumping to conclusions based on pure speculation that these are hybrids or that there are other shady dealings going on with the importers. I can assure you Valentina and Marcus will do their best to insure that the animals that go out are in the best possible health but as with any Farm Raised or WC animal they are put under a tremendous amount of stress during the shipment from Panama and then to your doorstep. If you have never dealt with imported frogs before and are not prepared to deal with the possibilities don't buy them. I think we should consider ourselves lucky that they even posted here considering they could have easily sold them all without anyone here knowing about them.

As always, just my opinion.

Robb


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## asydabass (Jul 12, 2005)

Scott,
Maybe you should do alittle more research first. These frogs (and the ones in the past) ARE being treated. To go and make a statement like that when you obviously have not made any effort to find out the truth first is, at least in my opinion, borderline slander: 
1. Words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another. 
2 Aspersion: an abusive attack on a person's character or good name. 





> FYI - Marcus does not treat that I am aware of.


Are you unware of it simply because you did not take the time to find out? Or is it that you did not read that it says right in the ad, that they are being treated.



> These are recent imports that are in quarantine being treated for parasites and any possible bacteria.
> "This is our standard protocol for any new imports"


I don't understand why someone would make such a completely unresearched comment.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Donald,

I've talked with Marcus in the past. I could be in error - but that is what I recall.

I have not talked with him about this shipment though. Just for the record - I trust Marcus as much as, or more, than any other Amphibian importer out there.

As others have said - they need to talk with him directly regarding *these* frogs.

s


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Guy's lets keep this friendly without Direct comments/opinions regarding Mr Breeceand or his business husbandry practices.

there's alot of boarder line content in this thread but it will continue to run unless more direct comments are made.




Regards


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

So I am curious has ANYONE heard back from them and confirmed an order?

Shawn


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

I heard back from Marcus and he assured me they are being treated. They are also trying to collect site data from the exporter and checking the morph guides to try to sort things out a bit.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That's good to hear on treatment. Better to be sure in *every* instance.

s


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

last thing i heard from marcus was they were separating the frogs into different morphs this weekend to see if they have what people want.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I just got off the phone with Marcus, and it sounds like he and his wife are doing a pretty good job of labeling and acclimating the frogs. It's much the same situation as with the Bastis and MCs. All farm raised with a single morph per greenhouse or partitioned section, so little threat of hybridization. As with before, I'm sure there will still be substantial die-offs just based on the stress levels of international exportation, but I believe that SNDF is doing all that can be expected to keep the frogs healthy until they can be shipped out. Anyway, I wouldn't encourage everyone to call him, because his phone must be ringing off the hook, but he was able to put most of my fears to rest.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

One of the things to think about is that its really not all that crazy that new morphs are coming in. We've been bitching about it for a while, "We want new stuff!" but if they brought in new stuff, what would happen to the chiriquis and bastis that they had? They probibly wouldn't be able to sell them. So they send out as much of the frogs we already have, and then move on to the ones we don't. Don't hold your breath for locality info, it would be a nice suprise if we get some tho. Just sucks that we might end up tagging them as locales that we really don't have a clue if they actually are or not.

From what I understood, the importers didn't know what they were getting til the shipments landed...


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## astrozombies (Jun 17, 2005)

For those who says he does not treat, he is not shipping any until they have been treated with several medicines of which i can't remember exactly and acclimated for 10 days or so before even shipping the first frogs. However, they are imports and that still means you must take the precautions and risks that you would with any of the bastis, or chiriqi or any others that are already here.


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## SNDF (Mar 23, 2006)

Hi Guys,

We are Valentina and Marcus Breece owners of Simply Natural Dart Frogs.
First we would like to thank the froggers who have first hand knowledge of our business and have addressed some of the uninformed statements posted hear.

As far as location information. We spoke to the exporter today and he told us these new pumilio were not collected from any of the known pumilio sites. He said the breeding stock were collected from areas not yet documented.
He does not want the numerous smugglers in Panama learning where they are located.
I have heard some of these morphs, earlier this year were already in Europe. We believe this is the first LEGAL importation of these pumilio morphs.
This explains the "Protected" where the site data usually is next to the new pumilio morphs on the Tropical Experience morph guide.

For the serious collectors we have separated and photographed all the different morphs. They will be posted in the classified section by number and how many of each morph we have available.

Again we would like to thank the people who have spoken on our behalf and to those who have questioned our professionalism, don't buy the frogs!

Simply Natural Dart Frogs is our full time business and our passion.Our reputation and customer satisfaction is very important to us.
We have been overwhelmed by the response to our ad. Please give us time to respond and we will do our best to provide you with some of the awesome new pumilio.

Respectfully:

Marcus and Valentina Breece
Simply Natural Dart Frogs


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Excellent post that did a great job of clearing the air and putting rumors to rest. Thank you for taking the time to sort this all out and to answer questions.



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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Please feel free to use the free gallery here as it seems you have hit the limit for the site you have the pictures on.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Geez... do you guys have to talk about the negative first when something good happened? Need to tone it down, because you're not part of it? This is worse than sewing club for old ladies....


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I just thought i should clarify my original post.....

I just want to make it clear that i wasnt accusing simply of anything, and it wasnt my intention to imply they would knowingly sell something illegal...if i did... i just wanted reassurance that these were safe to buy. With the questionable legality of many species i was concerned, and just wanted more info. The fact is i've heard nothing but good things about them....I should have been more clear in my post, but i was bout to go to bed cuz i had work in the morning  So if i came off in a negative way i apologize to them, and hope they wont hold it against me since i also emailed them about these frogs


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

looks like they only got in 52 frogs total now from their classified ad


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Valentina and Marcus,

Would it be possible to ask the breeders/exporters to give the different morphs collection code names. This would allow hobbyists to keep the morphs separate. If you are going to continue importing it would allow all those people, who don’t get a pair this time around, to buy more frogs of the correct morph next time. Trying to guess which morph is which form pictures is futile. Collection codes would really be valuable to the hobby.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I agree with a collection code. It would also give those who are trying to breed easy ways keep records on the frogs and share the info.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

When I spoke with Marcus on the phone, he said he would bring up the idea of a collection code or a fake (i.e. non-locale based) morph name for the new imports with the frog farm owner. He thought that it was a good idea, hopefully the frog farm guy will too.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I think that is an amazing idea. 

Further more i do not think its right for any of us to judge about what Marcus might or might not be doing with the frog. None of us live with him and to say things that are incorrect or what not, its just not right. 
Personally i have spoken to both Marcus and Valentina and i get a real good vive from them. We all complain about never getting anything but bastis and such and when someone actually brings us a different variety of frogs people jump and make conclusions without knowing facts. 

About these frogs being Hybrids, well if Frog A and Frog B meet in the middle of the road you can get frog C ( happens in the wild all of the time ). Hope that makes sense but none of us will never know the full varieties of Pumilio.


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## asydabass (Jul 12, 2005)

Damian,
Are you implying that these frogs can drive cars? Meeting for some secret rendezvous in the middle of some obscure intersection in Panama? I think it wrong for you to jump conclusions about them...    8) 

You think you'll be wanting to get any?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Donald im not thinking, i am getting =)....


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

I know we have all heard the debate about whether there actually is a "farm" or not. I sure hope there is.

I would hate for the locale info to be soley in the hands of "the farmer". Maybe this information could be held with an organization like treewalkers international.

Are there 52 total frogs? Maybe we could talk to the "farmer" and let him know we would like 52 of one morph at a time. 3-6 frogs of a morph in the hobby are not going to ever get to the point where they available as CB (we may not even have both sexes in the US!).


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I agree and since i speak Spanish i will will translate :lol:


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

I think the quite small number of individuals is a result of the origin of the frogs. I want to say that those animals come from populations where two different morphs meet each other, so that the number of "mixed-looking"- animals is only a small percentage of the parents offspring.( Rules of Mendel).

Greetings
Andreas


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I was told that these frogs were the first fruits of new breeding projects and that was the reason for the small numbers available.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Wow, 
Get a load of the number of views on this thread!


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> I was told that these frogs were the first fruits of new breeding projects and that was the reason for the small numbers available.


Who did you hear this from? Should we expect then that these frogs are not adults?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Marcus, and I would expect that they would be adults the same as the other recent pumilio imports (they have the same source), but talk to him for the whole story.


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## frogsintn (Mar 26, 2004)

the same things were said when the man creek and chiriqui river came in. if you want them buy them. if you don't ooohhhh well. there were only a few at first, now look. i can get chiriqui river, man creekany time i want. cb or wc there are even a few cbb. i love this hobby. the only thing that gets to me are people who cross breed and try to sell them as species. anyway i just wanted to give my 2 dollors worth.lol.
BUY EM BREED EM
rich


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