# Frogs not eating, inactive



## SuperFastSlug

Hello everyone. I have two Dendrobates leucomelas living in an 18x18x24 vivarium, and for whatever reason, they just became inactive. They have been eating less, and have just been either hiding or sitting in one spot all day. Their vivs been the same for a while. They just started this about a week ago, give or take a few days. Their temps
Been the same. Humidity has been the same. Food has been the same. I don't know what happened! Here's their habitat:






Can anyone help me figure this out? Any help is appreciated. Thanks!


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## xIslanderx

Have you been dusting their food source? How long have they been in your possession? What has the humidity been? (I know you mentioned it was constant, but curious on the %)



SuperFastSlug said:


> Hello everyone. I have two Dendrobates leucomelas living in an 18x18x24 vivarium, and for whatever reason, they just became inactive. They have been eating less, and have just been either hiding or sitting in one spot all day. Their vivs been the same for a while. They just started this about a week ago, give or take a few days. Their temps
> Been the same. Humidity has been the same. Food has been the same. I don't know what happened! Here's their habitat:
> View attachment 62225
> Can anyone help me figure this out? Any help is appreciated. Thanks!


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## SuperFastSlug

xIslanderx said:


> Have you been dusting their food source? How long have they been in your possession? What has the humidity been? (I know you mentioned it was constant, but curious on the %)


I have been dusting their food source most feedings. I'm not exactly sure how long, but definitely longer than 5 months. Humidity is typically around 80, never below 60.


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## Sea-Agg09

SuperFastSlug said:


> I have been dusting their food source most feedings. I'm not exactly sure how long, but definitely longer than 5 months. Humidity is typically around 80, never below 60.



Dusting with what? and just for kicks and giggles, what is the range of temp? For that matter how often are you feeding? The more info we can get the better the community will be able to help. A closer pic of the frogs will help as well.


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## SuperFastSlug

Sea-Agg09 said:


> Dusting with what? and just for kicks and giggles, what is the range of temp? For that matter how often are you feeding? The more info we can get the better the community will be able to help. A closer pic of the frogs will help as well.


The temp is room temperature, never above 78. I feed them both twice a day, they each get 10-20 FFs. Dusting with repticalcium w/ D3

EDIT: Can't get good pics right now as they are sleeping, but I might get some tomorrow.


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## Pumilo

SuperFastSlug said:


> The temp is room temperature, never above 78. I feed them both twice a day, they each get 10-20 FFs. Dusting with repticalcium w/ D3
> 
> EDIT: Can't get good pics right now as they are sleeping, but I might get some tomorrow.


The tank never gets above 78, or the room never gets above 78? The viv will almost always be hotter than the room. Have you checked the temperature with more than one thermometer?


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## frogface

SuperFastSlug said:


> The temp is room temperature, never above 78. I feed them both twice a day, they each get 10-20 FFs. Dusting with repticalcium w/ D3
> 
> EDIT: Can't get good pics right now as they are sleeping, but I might get some tomorrow.


Check the inside tank temps. With lights, it can be a bit higher than the room temps. Also, they need a multivitamin to go with the calcium. I like Repashy Calcium Plus.


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## SuperFastSlug

frogface said:


> Check the inside tank temps. With lights, it can be a bit higher than the room temps. Also, they need a multivitamin to go with the calcium. I like Repashy Calcium Plus.


The temps in the tank are fine. I monitor it with a digital thermometer/hygrometer.


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## SuperFastSlug

UPDATE: One of them is eating, the other is not.


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## SuperFastSlug

frogface said:


> Also, they need a multivitamin to go with the calcium. I like Repashy Calcium Plus.


 Ok, I'll look into getting a multivitamin


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## SuperFastSlug

Here are some pics of them:












The one in the bromeliad seems to be eating, but always hides. The yellower one seems to reject any fruit flies I offer him/her, and will sit in one spot all day.


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## frogface

I think it's really important that you get a good vitamin for them. It may be why they are seeming to struggle now. Have you been able to pick something up?


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## hypostatic

This is definitely not normal behavior for dart frogs. Something is seriously wrong. I would double check the temperature. Do you know what the minimum and maximum temperatures reach in the viv? If the room temp is 78F, the temperature inside the viv will probably reach way higher. To give you an idea, the temperature in my living room is 78F, but the temp probe inside my frog's viv is reading 86F... And I don't have lights that are really strong/hot...

Also, ditch the current supplements you're using. Reptical just isn't enough; as previously mentioned, your frogs are not getting _any_ vitamins with that supplement. And before you go out and get reptivite, you should consider that it does not have a form no vitamin A that is useable by dart frogs! This is the supplement that I recommend you getting:
Repashy Superfoods :: RETAIL SALES :: By Product Name :: Calcium Plus :: Calcium Plus 4 oz BAG - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
It has calcium, and all the vitamins your frogs need, in forms that they can use/absorb.

Are they trying to catch them, and missing them, or just not going for the FFs at all?


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## papafrogger

hypostatic said:


> Are they trying to catch them, and missing them, or just not going for the FFs at all?


This is a very important question. The answer to this could make a huge difference in the diagnosis.

I also recommend the repashy calcium plus. It is formulated as an all in one supplement to be used at every feeding. I noticed a marked improvement when i switched from repcal and herptivite.


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## SuperFastSlug

papafrogger said:


> This is a very important question. The answer to this could make a huge difference in the diagnosis.
> 
> I also recommend the repashy calcium plus. It is formulated as an all in one supplement to be used at every feeding. I noticed a marked improvement when i switched from repcal and herptivite.


One is just not going for them. The other seems to be eating, however. I'll get a multivitamin ASAP. And yes, the tank temps are good. It also has a fan for improved circulation and cooling. I turn the fan on and off periodically.


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## Pumilo

One question seems to keep popping up, and it is popping up for a very good reason. Your frogs show symptoms of overheating and you won't quite answer the question fully. 
Have you double checked the temperature on a second thermometer? This is a good question, and if you really want help, you should answer it. Thermometers are notoriously inaccurate. If you answered that, people could start to move on, OR, you may be surprised to find that your thermometer is way off.

I can tell you that once that was established, the questions would probably go towards, "Where did you measure your temperature at?". Temperatures from the bottom of the viv can easily be 10 degrees cooler than the top of the viv, even with a fan.

Maybe you think this is all silly. May YOU are well aware that you've triple checked the temp on 3 different thermometers. Maybe you know the temperature at every point in the viv. WE don't know that and you are describing symptoms that MAY be from overheating. You are asking during the hottest time of year. You are asking after several people have lost frogs to the heat. Only the full details will lay it to rest.
I'm just trying to help your frogs. You need to completely eliminate the prime suspect before you can find the real criminal.


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## Bcs TX

I agree with Doug, also you have not mentioned your misting schedule. Most hygrometers and temp gauges can be unpredictable, I use a temp gun to measure temps.
Perhaps try a reverse light cycle, lights off during the day on at night.
Where are you located?


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## hypostatic

Pumilo said:


> Thermometers are notoriously inaccurate.


Notoriously. Maybe its the high humidity in vivs that make them act wonky? I'm using an "outdoor" thermometer probe for my viv, and it regularly reads like 10F higher in the viv than the temp outside the viv. If I put my hand inside the viv it might feel a bit warmer, but not THAT warmer. And if I take the probe outside the viv and place it next to the other thermometer it'll read the correct room temperature... hmmmm....

To the OP -- what brand/type of thermometer are you using? Like, is it one of these:


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## SuperFastSlug

Ok everyone, sorry if I'm being too vague with my answers haha, but here is the exact heating situation: The typical temp within the house is always 75-80 tops. The temp in the viv is typically the same as the house, as with all of my other cages without heating. There is no additional heat source for the frogs. They are downstairs, right next to an AC vent, with an extra fan blowing, which does provide cool air throughout the viv. It is also never dry, as I have a reptifogger that I put on for about 30 min-1 hour in the morning and 30 min-1 hour in the evening, as well as a regular misting at noon. The humidity is typically good. As far as heat goes, they have always been at the same temps since I got them, and showed no signs of this before. The thermometer I use is similar to that flukers one above, but its not a reptile one. It is accurate (I've tested it) and it doubles as hygrometer. That is all the info I have on the heat. If I'm doing anything wrong in this department, please let me know. Again, sorry if I caused any confusion lol. I should've given more info. My bad haha.


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## papafrogger

The lighting is an extra heat source. With your room temps regularly hitting 80° i wouldnt be surprised if the tank was 85-87°. The frogs may not have shown symptoms until now. As far as i know unless the temps are extremely high 90°+ it isnt an immediate death sentence or immediately apparent. You could be seeing the long term effects of being too hot. Are your lights sitting directly on the top or are they raised? I suggest raising the lights to add airflow under them and/or reversing your light scheduld (off during daytime hours and on at night). 

Also what type of lighting are you using? Leds give far less heat than florescent or cfl bulbs but the heat will still be a problem with your room temps as high as they are. 

If it is possible the best thing you could do is lower the room temps to around 70-75°.


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## Pumilo

I know you disagree, but I think you have a heat issue. I strongly encourage you to get another reading with a different thermometer. 
Even if your tank is well vented, (I don't know if it is or not?), your lights are going to heat it up some.
For some immediate relief, you could reverse your lighting schedule. Run your lights at night, when you can handle the extra heat better.


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## SuperFastSlug

Alright guys, thanks for the answers! I'll try keeping my light off today and see where that takes me. I'll also be getting a new thermometer/hygrometer and some multivitamins. Thanks again everyone!


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## hypostatic

SuperFastSlug said:


> The typical temp within the house is always 75-80 tops. The temp in the viv is typically the same as the house, as with all of my other cages without heating.


Something seems off with this... Your viv is basically a greenhouse. It traps heat in because of the high humidity; so if its the same exact temperature inside as outside the viv, something fishy is going on... 



SuperFastSlug said:


> They are downstairs, right next to an AC vent, with an extra fan blowing, which does provide cool air throughout the viv. It is also never dry, as I have a reptifogger that I put on for about 30 min-1 hour in the morning and 30 min-1 hour in the evening, as well as a regular misting at noon.


I think it would be very helpful for everybody if you posted some pictures of your setup (you can take a cellphone pic and send it to your email, and then upload it to a site like tinypic.com). Like, the viv with the adjacent AC vent and fan in the picture. Having the tank right next to an AC vent raises some flags. I don't think it's a good idea, not unlike how it's not a good idea to keep plants right next to AC vents.

From the information you've given so far it really seems like some sort of environmental issue. It might be getting too hot in there (which most people would find to be the most likely answer given the time of year). You have it right next to an AC vent and a fan, so it also sounds possible that it's too COLD or dry in the viv (both of which would make them lethargic).

Post some pics up. It would be really helpful. Also, does your viv have a screen or vented top?

P.S. I would QT the frog that's not eating. In one of the pics, one of the frogs looks mighty skinny. This way you can keep an eye on the frog better, and allow it to eat in peace if it's stressed.


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## SuperFastSlug

Picked up some herptivite and a new thermometer!  ill measure temps around the cage and post results. And I will set up a hospital tank for the one that isn't eating. Oh also, the tank isn't dry. It is always humid. Trust me haha.


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## SuperFastSlug

Ok, so here are the readings I got from my thermometer. This is without the fan on or fogger.






(house temp)

















































Had to get another thermometer anyway cause my old run ran out of battery lol.


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## SuperFastSlug

Oh and just wanted to say thanks to everyone who's trying to help me out. I really appreciate it!


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## SuperFastSlug

hypostatic said:


> Post some pics up. It would be really helpful. Also, does your viv have a screen or vented top?


Ask and you shall receive.



















new multivitamin I got

Oh screen btw


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## SuperFastSlug

hypostatic said:


> P.S. I would QT the frog that's not eating. In one of the pics, one of the frogs looks mighty skinny. This way you can keep an eye on the frog better, and allow it to eat in peace if it's stressed.


The frog that is not eating is currently in quarentine


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## frogface

Thank you 

Some of our old timers use that vitamin for their darts. It's done well for many years. My frog vet uses it for her reptiles. The newer vitamin is Repashy Calcium Plus. Keep an eye out for it if you go to any shows or make any online frog supply purchases. It is said to be a better vitamin for getting Vitamin A to your frogs. Lack of Vitamin A can cause short tongue syndrome, which affects how a frog eats, as well as other things; healthy breeding for instance. 

Do a search on short tongue syndrome and you'll find lots on info on this.


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## SuperFastSlug

frogface said:


> Thank you
> 
> Some of our old timers use that vitamin for their darts. It's done well for many years. My frog vet uses it for her reptiles. The newer vitamin is Repashy Calcium Plus. Keep an eye out for it if you go to any shows or make any online frog supply purchases. It is said to be a better vitamin for getting Vitamin A to your frogs. Lack of Vitamin A can cause short tongue syndrome, which affects how a frog eats, as well as other things; healthy breeding for instance.
> 
> Do a search on short tongue syndrome and you'll find lots on info on this.


Cool, I'll look into it. The reason i got it was because I saw that it is good for dart frogs as well as chameleons. Since I'm getting a chameleon soon, why not kill two birds with one stone? But yeah, I'm still researching chameleon supplementation anyway, I'll look into the repashy calcium plus.


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## papafrogger

SuperFastSlug said:


> Cool, I'll look into it. The reason i got it was because I saw that it is good for dart frogs as well as chameleons. Since I'm getting a chameleon soon, why not kill two birds with one stone? But yeah, I'm still researching chameleon supplementation anyway, I'll look into the repashy calcium plus.


Im quite sure the cal plus would be awesome for chams as well. Maybe you could contact allen repashy via his website and ask, he is really a great guy who keeps in touch with his customer base. 

Your temps look good at the moment. You will want to cover at least 75-90% of your screen top with glass to help hold in humidity. That could be a major problem as well. Lower humidity and good ventilation is good for evaporative cooling during high temp spikes but if your humidity is too low it could be a recipe for disaster. Do you have any pools or containers of water for them to hydrate themselves? You said you run a humidifier and mist once daily correct? This sounds like your humidity will be very low. Humidifiers dont do all that good of a job keeping humidity up, a glass top and 2-3 mistings a day would be far better. On my exos even with full unvented glass tops and only passive ventilation i still need to mist 2-3 times a day.

Keep us updated on your little one who isnt eating. Are they acting lethargic still? How about the one who is eating?


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## frogface

I missed the part about the top being screen. Yea, get a piece cut to fit across the top there, leaving a small gap (I'd leave about an inch) and tape it down. Or, take the screen completely off and add the glass and some screen/mesh over the gap, and tape it all down, making sure there are no space for frog escapes. I use duct tape on all of my tanks for my fancy lids. Works great.


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## SuperFastSlug

papafrogger said:


> Im quite sure the cal plus would be awesome for chams as well. Maybe you could contact allen repashy via his website and ask, he is really a great guy who keeps in touch with his customer base.
> 
> Your temps look good at the moment. You will want to cover at least 75-90% of your screen top with glass to help hold in humidity. That could be a major problem as well. Lower humidity and good ventilation is good for evaporative cooling during high temp spikes but if your humidity is too low it could be a recipe for disaster. Do you have any pools or containers of water for them to hydrate themselves? You said you run a humidifier and mist once daily correct? This sounds like your humidity will be very low. Humidifiers dont do all that good of a job keeping humidity up, a glass top and 2-3 mistings a day would be far better. On my exos even with full unvented glass tops and only passive ventilation i still need to mist 2-3 times a day.
> 
> Keep us updated on your little one who isnt eating. Are they acting lethargic still? How about the one who is eating?


No haha I use the fogger a few times a day and regular bottle mist once in the afternoon. And yes there is a waterfall running down into a nice pool for them to hop into. The humidity is good, it's never dry in there. I typically run the fogger for an hour at a time. It holds humidity really well. Here's some better pics of my waterfall/pool:

























It's a pretty cool river waterfall thing. They still use it every once in a while to hydrate, but they still hide all day in the bromeliad. Oh, here's the hospital tank for the one that's not eating:


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## frogface

Cover that other tank too, with something. If you don't have a light directly on it, cover it with plastic wrap. Wet is not the same thing as humid. It could be a lack of humidity that is affecting your frogs. They will try to hunker down in humid spots.


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## kevin575

Wow, you threw a big red light on that thread name, lol.

Not to be repetitive but a glass top is needed. If you don't got one already. Granted you might have pieces put in the squares, in the top. I heard of people doing that, but don't see how the top piece is strong enough to hold the weight. Mine sagged as it was alone.

To get by, you might be able to use some cling wrap on the top. Pumilo will chime in if that's not a good idea.

I can tell you my experience with my 3 Leucs. I'm still a noobie. I have had them for almost a year. 

My Leucs are not super bold. There have been many times that they would go into hiding. This did make me wonder and my breeder said it was normal. 2 of them almost always came out during feeding while using malengaster. I'm thinking it was because they could get through the screen. So not a lot of them would stay in the tank. The 1 frog that was either always late for feeding, or didn't join and seemed to just eat springtails. Gosh! he always went for the springs. Maybe cause they always move, causing them to be seen easier. 
When I switched to Hydei, I started to worry that I was over feeding them. Making them hide cause of too many flies. Since they couldn't escape like the Malengaster. Still the 2 hid, but I could catch them in the morning when I could be around, and almost always saw them one hour before lights out. I had to start cutting back cause they were getting super fat. The other 1 could be seen a lot. Always somewhere where I could see him (became my favorite) But he never ate much. Plus I would see him miss some of the flies, especially the hydei. Flick the fly, then swat it off it's tongue (maybe too much vitamins). This threw a lot of worry to me. Plus he is close to half the size of the other 2. Maybe there is some bullying that I haven't seen. I set up a 10 gallon and put him in there. Set it up with plenty of isopods, and springs. The springs seemed to be winning the battle. Had lots of them even though they were his favorite. I started to worry he wouldn't eat any flies and wouldn't get any vitamins. But with much watching. I did see him eating a few. Plus since it didn't have an automatic misting system. I think the vitamins stayed on the flies longer. Still over a few months. He stayed fairly skinny, compared to the other 2. Then I heard a kind of squeak. Like my wire racks had some kind of vibration problem somehow. Then it dawned on me as I was leaving the room. I slowly moved in front of the tank. Chirp! It's a male! That's probably why he is skinnier and smaller than the other 2.

I moved him back to the big tank a few days later. He has been doing good ever since. He has been calling a lot. Sometimes even when I have guests. He has gotten a little fatter over the last 4 months. No eggs yet. Heard 18 months is the time frame to start laying and they are 1 year so far. So hopefully in 6 months I will start getting some.

On temps, when I was in an apartment. The temps would get to 75 in the room, and the tank up to 82. Didn't happen often. But the A/C couldn't keep up. Now I got a house and they are down stairs in a better controlled temp room that stays around 72, and the tank will get up to 77.

I'm not sure what you are using for lighting. I'm using 3 13watt JD screw in's. I have had to put cigarette packs as spacers, to get the lights farther away from the top of the tank to prevent heat transference. I still get some heat transference. Plus I would suggest that if your using the same as me. Take out the reflector that is inside of the exoterra light fixture. It will help the heat from the lights to move through the vent, and help it from building up between the light fixture and your tank.

Sorry soo long, and hope my info helps. This is my thread if you want to see my tank. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/84518-24x18x24-cork-bark-build.html

Kevin


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## SuperFastSlug

Ok, thanks for the replies everyone. I'll do everything I can to help these guys out. Thanks again!


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## frogface

Keep us posted


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## SuperFastSlug

Despite my attempts to save the frog, he died. I did everything I could, but when I came home, he was lying on his back, dead. However, my other frog who is in my vivarium is still eating, and actually doing better. He is eating more and is more active. I'm not sure what caused this, but it could've been vitamin deficiency of some sort. Thanks for the help though guys.


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## kevin575

Sorry to hear it. Guess my advice didn't help much. Hope the other frogs keep going good.


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## SuperFastSlug

My other frog returned to normal health, and i just acquired a new frog! Hopefully nothing will go wrong this time.


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