# What water is frog safe?



## Zero

I live in the Uk and I've been told that tap water is not good for frogs. I know that in America you guys can buy RO water. I've been unsuccessful in finding RO water but I did find something called de-ionised water i'm not sure wether this is safe for drinking and misting. 


This is the water I'm talking about.
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-...THeslnKnJFs6RZtytdMaAp6VEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## Nightwingwelds

You can use distilled water as well, not sure about in the UK but here in the states it’s readily available and pretty cheap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Roscoe09

You could buy a RO system.


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## Schlepenslide

I use tap water that’s been treated with Seachem Prime. I’ve had my frogs almost a year and they’ve been reproducing and otherwise seem quite healthy. My plants (some broms/orchids included) are fine on this, but perhaps an especially sensitive specimen wouldn’t do as great without 100% distilled/rain water.

The downside is that I have to clean the glass with vinegar every so often; any minerals will leave a bit of residue. For $8/year for a bottle of Prime, I’m willing to put up with that.


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## S2G

Spring water is listed as ro a lot times. I use that or distilled.

The problem with tap is total disolved solids. It has alot of crap in it that can build up in your tank. It will also leave stained on your glass. I would treat it like the saltwater tank of vivariums...if that makes sense


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## salvz

If you dechlorinate it properly and it's safe for you to drink, your tap is safe for frogs. As was mentioned, however, hard water minerals can create cosmetic (etching) issues with glass over time. In addition, if the water is strongly alkaline, it could result in pH-related lockout of nutrients which can sometimes affect your plants, depending on the species.


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## Encyclia

Zero said:


> I live in the Uk and I've been told that tap water is not good for frogs. I know that in America you guys can buy RO water. I've been unsuccessful in finding RO water but I did find something called de-ionised water i'm not sure wether this is safe for drinking and misting.
> 
> 
> This is the water I'm talking about.
> https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-...THeslnKnJFs6RZtytdMaAp6VEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


Makes me super nervous that this water is in the automotive department... I guess if it lists the contents as just water, it should be OK. I don't know how labeling works in the UK. As S2G said, it's what may or may not be dissolved in your tap water that matters the most. If you have a lot of Ca and Mg in your water ("hard" water), that can make things inconvenient (in terms of having to clean deposits off your glass) but some plants are not fond of hard water, as well. I doubt the frogs care quite as much.

I didn't see any mention of a misting system, but this is the place where having hard water can really hurt you. Fine misting systems will clog pretty quickly if you use hard water. They can be cleaned with vinegar, but this is pretty inconvenient if you have to do it regularly.

You have other options, too. I use a unit like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4L-Water...m=202225019653&_trksid=p2045573.c100705.m4780

to make my distilled water. It's great if you are going through quite a bit of water, but difficult to justify if your needs aren't so great. An RO system would be even more difficult to justify if you are not going through much. Is there a distilled water option available at your super market? I find that it's sometimes hard to ID drinking water at the super market as RO, but distilled water should be clearly labeled.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

Mark


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## K4p1nkrunch

I was curious which water distillation brand you use? Im in US. Im thinking of getting one sooner rather than later


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## Easternon

I’m in London and I use the tap water, according to Thames Water I get 200ppm calcium or so. Occasional spotting on the viv but nothing a weekly wipedown won’t solve.

Alternatively Tesco brand bottled water is very cheap and pretty much exactly what parameters i would want for soft water fish or sensitive plants (typically I’d mix 70:30 RO water to tap water leaving me about 60ppm ca, which is close to what Tesco water comes in at)

Edit: to clarify it’s Tesco Ashbeck bottled water, blue label and comes in 5L cans


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## Spuddy

Im unsure how you've not been able to find RO water?  Pretty much every local fish store well sell it, and they definitely will if they are a marine specialist. Just search for local marine fish shops.


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## Encyclia

K4p1nkrunch said:


> I was curious which water distillation brand you use? Im in US. Im thinking of getting one sooner rather than later


Are you talking about getting a distiller? I just bought one of the cheapo ones off of Ebay like below. I have put hundreds of gallons through the latest one. I did have to throw one away after a while because it stopped working, but not til I had a couple of hundred gallons of water through it. The latest one is way beyond that. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/4L-Dental-...882807&hash=item3d430bcdbb:g:XyIAAOSwC9VZfpc5

Mark


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## Zero

Easternon said:


> I’m in London and I use the tap water, according to Thames Water I get 200ppm calcium or so. Occasional spotting on the viv but nothing a weekly wipedown won’t solve.
> 
> Alternatively Tesco brand bottled water is very cheap and pretty much exactly what parameters i would want for soft water fish or sensitive plants (typically I’d mix 70:30 RO water to tap water leaving me about 60ppm ca, which is close to what Tesco water comes in at)
> 
> Edit: to clarify it’s Tesco Ashbeck bottled water, blue label and comes in 5L cans


will it be okay to just use the ashbeck on its own? The water supplied in my area is 267ppm


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## Zero

Encyclia said:


> Makes me super nervous that this water is in the automotive department... I guess if it lists the contents as just water, it should be OK. I don't know how labeling works in the UK. As S2G said, it's what may or may not be dissolved in your tap water that matters the most. If you have a lot of Ca and Mg in your water ("hard" water), that can make things inconvenient (in terms of having to clean deposits off your glass) but some plants are not fond of hard water, as well. I doubt the frogs care quite as much.
> 
> I didn't see any mention of a misting system, but this is the place where having hard water can really hurt you. Fine misting systems will clog pretty quickly if you use hard water. They can be cleaned with vinegar, but this is pretty inconvenient if you have to do it regularly.
> 
> You have other options, too. I use a unit like this:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4L-Water...m=202225019653&_trksid=p2045573.c100705.m4780
> 
> to make my distilled water. It's great if you are going through quite a bit of water, but difficult to justify if your needs aren't so great. An RO system would be even more difficult to justify if you are not going through much. Is there a distilled water option available at your super market? I find that it's sometimes hard to ID drinking water at the super market as RO, but distilled water should be clearly labeled.
> 
> I hope you find what you are looking for.
> 
> Mark


I was unaware that some plants are not fond of hard water. In my area we do have hard water. I'm not using a misting system just yet but will invest in a mist king soon. I'm just starting out with frogs but I do have various reptiles and I'm sick of wiping the glass every week lol.


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## Encyclia

Zero said:


> I was unaware that some plants are not fond of hard water. In my area we do have hard water. I'm not using a misting system just yet but will invest in a mist king soon. I'm just starting out with frogs but I do have various reptiles and I'm sick of wiping the glass every week lol.


I hear ya! I don't know how things work in the UK, but it sounds like you have a good option in Spuddy's comment. Our local fish stores typically sell RO water, too. I use my distilled water without cutting it with tap water (100% distilled) in both my Mistking and my hand mister. Plants and frogs seem just fine with it. You would be fine to do the same with RO in your hand-held or automated mister. 

Mark


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## Zero

Encyclia said:


> I hear ya! I don't know how things work in the UK, but it sounds like you have a good option in Spuddy's comment. Our local fish stores typically sell RO water, too. I use my distilled water without cutting it with tap water (100% distilled) in both my Mistking and my hand mister. Plants and frogs seem just fine with it. You would be fine to do the same with RO in your hand-held or automated mister.
> 
> Mark


What about nutrients in the water? is RO good all round?


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## Encyclia

Yes, from what I understand, RO or distilled are both just fine options. The frogs don't drink in the traditional sense, but receive their water through their permeable skins. That's one of the reasons we have to worry about good supplementation for our frogs. So, the lack of calcium, magnesium, etc. in distilled/RO is not as important for our dart frogs as for those animals that drink water from a bowl. 

What I know for fact is that I have been using exclusively distilled water in all of my tanks for years with (seemingly) no ill effects. 

Mark
P.S. If am wrong about any of the above, someone please correct me! This is based on my probably-faulty memory of other threads where Ed has commented on distilled water being ok for our use in dart frog tanks.


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## Louis

Encyclia said:


> Are you talking about getting a distiller? I just bought one of the cheapo ones off of Ebay like below. I have put hundreds of gallons through the latest one. I did have to throw one away after a while because it stopped working, but not til I had a couple of hundred gallons of water through it. The latest one is way beyond that.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4L-Dental-...882807&hash=item3d430bcdbb:g:XyIAAOSwC9VZfpc5
> 
> Mark


I'm actually using this exact model right now in the UK to treat water before I use it in my mistking or foggers and as you say i'ts been very reliable for me. Doesn't seem to quite produce the 'laboratory grade' distilled water it advertises but so far has not caused any problems with the mistking.


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## K4p1nkrunch

Encyclia said:


> Are you talking about getting a distiller? I just bought one of the cheapo ones off of Ebay like below. I have put hundreds of gallons through the latest one. I did have to throw one away after a while because it stopped working, but not til I had a couple of hundred gallons of water through it. The latest one is way beyond that.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/4L-Dental-...882807&hash=item3d430bcdbb:g:XyIAAOSwC9VZfpc5
> 
> Mark


Awesome thanks


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## Easternon

Zero said:


> will it be okay to just use the ashbeck on its own? The water supplied in my area is 267ppm


Yeah it’s like 83ppm, it has less nitrate than tap water too, it helps bromeliads retain their colour


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## Ravage

Just wanted to mention: Do Not Use DI (de-ionized) water. DI water is an extreme hypo-tonic solution and is highly reactive. It will strip minerals out of the environment (your frogs). That being said, it will quickly react in the vivarium and become mineralized ( or carbonated, when reacting with CO2) and be safer lickety split, but if it hits a frog it will grab minerals from their permeable skin. Not good. I use DI to clean glassware in the lab and to mix some solutions, but it is "the universal solvent" and not something to mess with. 
It doesn't sound like you're headed that way, but I wanted to point that out for all who might see this thread.


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## Ed

Ravage said:


> Just wanted to mention: Do Not Use DI (de-ionized) water. DI water is an extreme hypo-tonic solution and is highly reactive. It will strip minerals out of the environment (your frogs).


It cannot strip minerals out of the frogs... the cell membranes do not allow that to happen.... water moves against a concentration gradient and has to be moved out of the cell via active transport but contrary to the myths across the internet, that happens with any "kind" of water that is not isotonic to the frog's tissues including tap water, spring water and pretty much any other kind that is in the range of dissolved solutes you can drink... Tap and other forms of water that is in the range of drinkable water are really close to one another and all cause the same scope of ion loss. This is discussed thoroughly here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html 

and here is a reference for how close DI/RO and other waters are to each other compared to the cells...


> Just so people have a better understanding of the whole issue about distilled, RO, tap and so forth..
> The way solutions that may be important in osmoregulation are compared is through osmolarity which can be referenced here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmolarity) (to prevent a lengthy tedious explanation).
> The different types of water used to care for amphibians (RO, DI, tap and even high content mineral waters) have a osmolarity that typically runs from 0 (for RO, DI) up to 28 mOsm/kg (for high content mineral waters) (see www.osmolality.com/pdf/Rave Drugs.doc). This is then compared to amphibian ringers which has a rating of 229 mOsm/kg (Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, 2001 Krieger’s Press), which is considered to be isotonic for the purposes of osmoregulation with amphibian body chemistries.
> As can be seen by the values for water in the paragraph above, regardless of the type of water used, ions will be lost into solution. The degree of loss is going to be of the same scale regardless of the type used as the osmolarity is very similar to one another. The frogs will actively scavenge ions back out of the water (or if the substrate contains mobile calcium and other ions and is moist) from the substrate. This discussion is assuming healthy amphibians and not ill or otherwise compromised ones


some comments 

Ed


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## Ravage

Thanks for the comments. There seems to be some confusion between distilled and De-Ionized water in your very informative post, thanks for bringing that up. Distilled water and De-ionized water are both basically free of ions, but there is a difference. DI, created by passing water through through electrically charged resins, is reactive on its return to the environment. It is NOT considered safe to drink.
https://www.thoughtco.com/distilled-versus-deionized-water-609435 - see this for a good, but basic background into the differences between Distilled and DI.
I completely agree with your point in terms of distilled water. I just don't think it's a good idea to apply a caustic solution to an amphibian.
Until I get to the office where I might be able to read the 2009 study and verify that it's DI water in the study, and not distilled, I will be a bit incredulous. 
As always, this is thought provoking stuff, and good information. I still think, given the alternatives, DI is not a good water to use in this application.


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## Andrew Sullivan

I think the tap water is fine for use in regard to frogs. You can run into problems with your plants. Because every time you most more and more minerals can build up creating an environment that can’t sustain them. Orchids I found are strongly influenced by the water content.


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## Ed

Ravage said:


> Thanks for the comments. There seems to be some confusion between distilled and De-Ionized water in your very informative post, thanks for bringing that up. Distilled water and De-ionized water are both basically free of ions, but there is a difference. DI, created by passing water through through electrically charged resins, is reactive on its return to the environment. It is NOT considered safe to drink.
> https://www.thoughtco.com/distilled-versus-deionized-water-609435 - see this for a good, but basic background into the differences between Distilled and DI.
> I completely agree with your point in terms of distilled water. I just don't think it's a good idea to apply a caustic solution to an amphibian.
> Until I get to the office where I might be able to read the 2009 study and verify that it's DI water in the study, and not distilled, I will be a bit incredulous.
> As always, this is thought provoking stuff, and good information. I still think, given the alternatives, DI is not a good water to use in this application.


I'm going to take exception with that article... as it isn't accurate in a couple of respects. De-ionized water may be reactive not because CO2 dissolves into it from the air (as that occurs with distilled right off the bat as well) but because de-ionization does not remove dissolved gases. It is those dissolved gases that can change the pH and reactivity of the water since you can get the reaction of CO2 and water to get carbonic acid which dissociates to HCO3- and H+.... and then there is a much smaller secondary reaction to CO3-2 and H+...

Now the risks from that pH isn't that great since unless your really have a saturated solution your pH isn't going to be below 5 (and if I remember correctly a solution at atmospheric pressure and equilibrium is going to be well above 5 (closer to 6)) is going to be around which is actually a good bit higher than the blackwater streams can be in the same regions as the frogs originate or even some of the deposition sites (like treeholes) where large amounts of humic acids really drop the pH. These sites also tend to precipitate out important ions like calcium and magnesium as the humic salts of those ions are highly insoluble. 

As for the lack of minerals, the main complaint about those type of water is generally that it tastes flat and lifeless (as the ions are "flavors") and if you are eating a balanced diet then it really doesn't matter if the water contains it or not. The pH is going to be well above that of many fruit juices (generally in the range of 3.3-4.4) or sodas, even milk is slightly acidic..... 

With respect to the frogs and their tadpoles, as long as a source of ions is provided to them (like say fish food or pelleted foods), their ability to scavenge any lost ions from the water (since this occurs even in regular tap water) is sufficient to avert issues. 

As for distilled not being reactive, the reason it isn't immediately reactive is because distillation removes dissolved gases until they redissolve as the water sits in contact with the atmosphere. If you boiled deionized, you would drive the dissolved gases off moving it really close to distilled water. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ravage

Well you learn something new everyday. I did, anyway. After reading a section from "The Ecology and Behavior of Amphibians (Kentwood Wells, 2010, University of Chicago Press) I concede that the frogs do possess the resilience to withstand De-Ionized water. See it here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=eDKEKy5JJbIC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=Deionized+water+and+amphibians&source=bl&ots=EvF6QGOUxq&sig=lheenfdwYJf3ujJz98goNThzJrg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOoaGb78nZAhVDl1QKHSxWBTMQ6AEIQTAC#v=onepage&q=Deionized%20water%20and%20amphibians&f=false
I guess all the years I've been around it, I misunderstood it's true caustic effect. I'd be worried if the frogs were made of iron, but they are not. Keep keeping us honest, Ed.


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## Pumilo

Schlepenslide said:


> I use tap water that’s been treated with Seachem Prime. I’ve had my frogs almost a year and they’ve been reproducing and otherwise seem quite healthy. My plants (some broms/orchids included) are fine on this, but perhaps an especially sensitive specimen wouldn’t do as great without 100% distilled/rain water.
> 
> The downside is that I have to clean the glass with vinegar every so often; any minerals will leave a bit of residue. For $8/year for a bottle of Prime, I’m willing to put up with that.


Your plants may be fine with this now, but your orchids could take a turn for the worse. Many orchids are very sensitive to hard water. You say it's fine now, and that may lead you to assume it will be ok in the future. You want to take accumulation into account. Every time you soak down that sphagnum, or whatever surface your orchid's roots call home, you fill that sphagnum up with hard miniral deposits. Now your water evaporates, but of course the minerals do not. They stay put. Next time you water, those old minerals re-dissolve into your new, freshly misted, water. Next day, same thing happens and suddenly you have 3 times the amount of mineral deposits. At some point, this is going to piss off some of your orchids. In addition, these mineral deposits can build up on your orchid leaves. It doesn't take much to leave a coating that blocks 10 or 20% of the light it's supposed to be getting. You wouldn't even notice a coating that could block 10%. If said orchid is already getting just enough light to live, it's a goner.

Next is how those mineral deposits will build up inside of misting nozzles. This can completely plug them.

Finally, those minerals will collect, build up, and coat your glass. For a while, you can remove it, however it will eventually etch its way permanently into your life. Over time, it etches into the glass, and is there for good.


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## Schlepenslide

Pumilo said:


> Your plants may be fine with this now, but your orchids could take a turn for the worse. Many orchids are very sensitive to hard water. You say it's fine now, and that may lead you to assume it will be ok in the future. You want to take accumulation into account. Every time you soak down that sphagnum, or whatever surface your orchid's roots call home, you fill that sphagnum up with hard miniral deposits. Now your water evaporates, but of course the minerals do not. They stay put. Next time you water, those old minerals re-dissolve into your new, freshly misted, water. Next day, same thing happens and suddenly you have 3 times the amount of mineral deposits. At some point, this is going to piss off some of your orchids. In addition, these mineral deposits can build up on your orchid leaves. It doesn't take much to leave a coating that blocks 10 or 20% of the light it's supposed to be getting. You wouldn't even notice a coating that could block 10%. If said orchid is already getting just enough light to live, it's a goner.
> 
> Next is how those mineral deposits will build up inside of misting nozzles. This can completely plug them.
> 
> Finally, those minerals will collect, build up, and coat your glass. For a while, you can remove it, however it will eventually etch its way permanently into your life. Over time, it etches into the glass, and is there for good.



Good points! Thanks for taking time to answer; always good to hear from someone who actually really knows what they’re doing, haha! I hope I didn’t come off as ignorant; I come from a background of freshwater fishkeeping and RO stuff is usually for the saltwater enthusiasts. 

Maybe I should do a heavy spraydown every once in awhile with distilled, just to make sure nothing builds up too high? My orchids are admittedly pretty basic — I have a few small phal, a coconut orchid, and a few misc jewel orchids. I mostly use aquatic plants and gesneriads in my setups, which seem really tolerant of just about anything I throw at them. 


I use vinegar a few times a month to clean up my glass (frog poop and misc stains, haha), but I totally agree with how awful hard water stains are, uggh. I had some bad ones on my first big fishtank I got off craigslist, and it was un-cleanable. Never again. 


100% will keep what you said in mind, though! Especially if I want to keep fancy orchids in the future (someday, when I’m not sharing an apartment with 3 other adults in Boston, haha). Thanks again for your advice and replying!


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## salvz

Ravage said:


> Well you learn something new everyday. I did, anyway. After reading a section from "The Ecology and Behavior of Amphibians (Kentwood Wells, 2010, University of Chicago Press) I concede that the frogs do possess the resilience to withstand De-Ionized water. See it here:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=eDKEKy5JJbIC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=Deionized+water+and+amphibians&source=bl&ots=EvF6QGOUxq&sig=lheenfdwYJf3ujJz98goNThzJrg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOoaGb78nZAhVDl1QKHSxWBTMQ6AEIQTAC#v=onepage&q=Deionized%20water%20and%20amphibians&f=false
> I guess all the years I've been around it, I misunderstood it's true caustic effect. I'd be worried if the frogs were made of iron, but they are not. Keep keeping us honest, Ed.


Very interesting. The book does, however, indicate that more terrestrial species (_Hyla, bufo, Psuedacris_) had less of an ability to withstand DI water compared to more aquatic species, lasting only 10 days in these conditions compared to several months for relatively aquatic frogs.


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