# Is this Silicone Safe?



## Jbenedicta (Aug 22, 2016)

Hey Fellow Froggers...is this silicone safe to use in my Vivs?

Sure appreciate your feedback. Definitely don't want to poison my frogs with some secret ingredient in the Silicone.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I would only use it if it's GE Silicone I not GE Silicone II. Can't quite see the label, but I would assume it's GE II based on the mold-free label. GE I is readily available in clear at big box stores. It's black and bronze that are harder to get in safe forms.

Mark


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

Um if it not mistaken it's Silicon 2 that's the safe one... that's what I've Always seen...


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Carolina Vivariums said:


> Um if it not mistaken it's Silicon 2 that's the safe one... that's what I've Always seen...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is incorrect. Do a search and there are many threads on this subject (if not complete agreement). II uses organotins in the curing process. Organotins are known to be bad for animals. Silicone I is ok.

Mark


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

From my research I've found that it's a mixed issue but I've always been told to use 2 and have always used it for years in my personal hobby and at the zoo I work at without any problem


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## Krakkin (Jul 1, 2013)

Carolina Vivariums said:


> Um if it not mistaken it's Silicon 2 that's the safe one... that's what I've Always seen...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You do NOT want GE silicone II. The mold inhibitors can be bad for your frogs and have possible reproductive consequences. GE silicone I is safe for vivarium use. I have found the clear and white at places like Home Depot and Lowe's, and ace hardware carries bronze if you have one of those around. Black is extremely hard if not not just about impossible to find. 

I personally just use aquarium safe silicone (it will say on the label if it's intended for aquarium use.) that way I never have to worry about it.

This is what I use, they've had it on sale for some time now but even full price it's still comparable if not cheaper than GE I. They carry it in black and clear
http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=20059


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

OP, I encourage you to look up some of the other threads where this is discussed. You will see a lot of folks saying that they have used GE II for years without any difficulty. You will also see people pointing to the contents of the different silicones via the MSDS and them stating the fact that organotins have proven negative effects on animals. These effects may not be obvious or manifest for a few generations. This is why there is still controversy over which silicones are safe. I take the position that the folks who say GE II is safe really can't know that for sure. There are non-organotin options available, so I choose to use those, instead.

Please take a look at some of the other threads where this has been discussed:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal-3.html#post627646
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/83985-ge-black-silicone-type-ii.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/66590-silicone-questions.html

Mark


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Its should be also noted that the SDS lists the substances present in the uncured form, not the cured form in which there is a chemical reaction and not all substance present in the non-cured form will be present any more.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

The challenge of finding a safe but conveniently available silicone is getting harder because of marketing as well. Now, even silicones without any mold inhibitors will carry a "mold/mildew resistant" badge since pure silicone does not support their growth.

It's a bit like putting an "SPF 5000" sticker on a sweater - technically true but rather confusing...


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## ice19d (Jan 17, 2017)

from what I've seen in my research is that silicone 1 is 100% silicone and is the only safe thing to use. i dont think the brand matters. they have fish/aquarium safe silicone, but its smaller amount and alot more expensive. its really the same thing so your better off just going the the hardware store.


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## Jbenedicta (Aug 22, 2016)

Thanks for all the feedback.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kimcmich said:


> Greetings,
> 
> The challenge of finding a safe but conveniently available silicone is getting harder because of marketing as well.


Actually it isn't ... You can purchase tubes of the same size that are labeled for aquarium use of silicone sealant. See Glasscages.com - Aquarium Sealant granted not quite as cheap as the local big box store or as convenient but not the level of difficulty your implying. 



kimcmich said:


> Now, even silicones without any mold inhibitors will carry a "mold/mildew resistant" badge since pure silicone does not support their growth.
> ..


Since when? "Pure silicone" does indeed support mold/mildew growth as there isn't anything inhibiting it's colonization particularly since the colonization can begin on the biofilm or even soap residues that accrue on the silicon. You may want to track down a copy of the following as it contradicts your claims in more than one way ... 
Wolf. Andreas T., 1999; Durability of building sealants; Cachan Rilem Publ. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bsr8129 said:


> Its should be also noted that the SDS lists the substances present in the uncured form, not the cured form in which there is a chemical reaction and not all substance present in the non-cured form will be present any more.


While this is true it doesn't apply to catalysts like the organotins that are used to shift the reaction offgassing product from acetic acid to ammonia. In addition, there are other biocides that can be added to inhibit unwanted growths that are mobile from the sealant. The length of time they are functional is going to depend on the initial amount added during processing. There are a number of papers that discuss the technical aspect of the issue. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Carolina Vivariums said:


> From my research I've found that it's a mixed issue but I've always been told to use 2 and have always used it for years in my personal hobby and at the zoo I work at without any problem


There are problematic compounds that are in two that are not in one, and I would not suggest using 2 in contact with aquatic species or amphibians as the organotin used for converting the offgassing product from acetic acid to ammonia is a problem. 

When I worked at a zoological institution, all we used was silicone I or its equivalent and II was not used in aquatic or amphibian enclosures where leachates could be taken up by the animals. 

some comments 

Ed


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## As51497 (Jan 20, 2017)

Krakkin said:


> You do NOT want GE silicone II. The mold inhibitors can be bad for your frogs and have possible reproductive consequences. GE silicone I is safe for vivarium use. I have found the clear and white at places like Home Depot and Lowe's, and ace hardware carries bronze if you have one of those around. Black is extremely hard if not not just about impossible to find.
> 
> I personally just use aquarium safe silicone (it will say on the label if it's intended for aquarium use.) that way I never have to worry about it.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it any better. Never ever use any silicon agent that isn't 100% silicon as most contain mold and mildew inhibitors.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Ed said:


> Actually it isn't ... You can purchase tubes of the same size that are labeled for aquarium use of silicone sealant. See Glasscages.com - Aquarium Sealant granted not quite as cheap as the local big box store or as convenient but not the level of difficulty your implying.


Maybe what you're labeling as my implication is instead your inference  

I've attached an image of the newer packaging for GE Silicone I - it now claims "mold resistant protection" in the same font and position as the "Mold *Proof * Protection" on the Silicone II label.



Ed said:


> Since when? "Pure silicone" does indeed support mold/mildew growth as there isn't anything inhibiting it's colonization particularly since the colonization can begin on the biofilm or even soap residues that accrue on the silicon.


So the biofilm and/or soap residue support the mold/mildew, not the silicone itself, right? There are a couple of meanings for "support" - I was using the positive "is used as a source of nutrients" sense of the term - perhaps you are using the neutral "does not inhibit" sense of the word instead. I was implicitly contrasting silicone with latex caulks which can be eaten by mold/mildew.


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

Ed said:


> There are problematic compounds that are in two that are not in one, and I would not suggest using 2 in contact with aquatic species or amphibians as the organotin used for converting the offgassing product from acetic acid to ammonia is a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for your in depth explanations! I will switch from now on! 


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

kimcmich said:


> Maybe what you're labeling as my implication is instead your inference
> 
> I've attached an image of the newer packaging for GE Silicone I - it now claims "mold resistant protection" in the same font and position as the "Mold *Proof * Protection" on the Silicone II label.
> 
> ...


Uh oh. Here is a picture of the kind of Silicone I that I usually use for froggy purposes. Notice there is no badging of mold resistance on mine... 










I hope this doesn't mean that some of the GE I that they make now has the organotin-based curing process. Do we now have to say that only the All Purpose GE I is safe? Any insights into that, Ed? Thanks very much for your other replies in this thread, too. 

Another way to interpret this is that maybe there is some native mold resistance in GE I (as Kipp was saying) and they only choose to market it in the Tub and Shower version that Kipp posted pictures of? I don't know the answer to that. I think I remember that Ed has said in the past that the mold resistance claim is just a secondary benefit of the organotin-based curing compound, the first being a less-hostile work environment due to less smell than the acetic acid-based curing process. Am I right on that, Ed?

Mark


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

Just quit messing around with the house calk and get some real aquarium silicone. 

http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=20059

$4.90 a tube 


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## Krakkin (Jul 1, 2013)

Damon Ryan said:


> Just quit messing around with the house calk and get some real aquarium silicone.
> 
> http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=20059
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I was saying earlier. I see people always saying they can't find aquarium silicone in full size tubes or it's too expensive. Well just use the link here and never worry about it again.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Krakkin said:


> This is exactly what I was saying earlier. I see people always saying they can't find aquarium silicone in full size tubes or it's too expensive. Well just use the link here and never worry about it again.


Yeah, that is good stuff and there are several other places you can get good stuff online. I get CR Lawrence silicone from PKsupplies.com. However, all of that assumes that you have the lead time to order and wait for shipping. That's usually the case for me, but sometimes I run out or don't plan ahead properly. That's when being able to find something safe at a big box store becomes important. If you have the lead time to order ahead, though, there is no reason not to get stuff you are absolutely certain about. Good link, Damon.

Mark


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Damon Ryan, the new badass around here! Thanks for the post! Now let's post this under a new thread saying "safe cheap silicone"


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

@Encyclia,
Yeah, the labeling difference is worrisome. 

The Tub & Shower Silicone I does not say "mold _proof _protection" as the organotin-containing SII does and it cures by release of ascetic acid (there's a warning on the back of the label about the fumes). It_ could_ have another compound conferring the "mold resistance," but the curing vapor indicates it isn't an organotin.

The last time I checked the MSDS for Silicone I it did not have the warning for the tin compounds listed for Silicone II...


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

@encyclia

It's always good to keep some of this aquarium silicone on hand. Though I cannot recall a situation where I couldn't wait to get the proper silicone, nor can I think of a situation where it would be an emergency.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Damon Ryan,

The aquarium sealant you recommend is certainly a good option. Comparing the MSDS for it and GE Silicone I however, there doesn't seem to be anything in GESI that isn't in the aquarium sealant.

I say "seem" because the GE MSDS is very specific about the recipe listing several organic molecules ending in -silane and -siloxane while the aquarium sealeant just says" Organopolysiloxane mixture".

And to note for those who've scanned the MSDS for GE Silicone before, one has to dig into the latter pages of the MSDS for Silicone II to find the mention of the Tin compounds that cause the problem.

And has anyone else noticed how frustratingly inconsistent the MSDS formatting is betwen products and companies?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Damon Ryan said:


> @encyclia
> 
> It's always good to keep some of this aquarium silicone on hand. Though I cannot recall a situation where I couldn't wait to get the proper silicone, nor can I think of a situation where it would be an emergency.
> 
> ...


How about if you finish the last tube of silicone on your build (perfect planning!), put your light on top, and while you are admiring your handiwork, the glass cracks because you didn't notice that the light included a heat lamp. You now need to replace the glass with some silicone and you are out because you planned your use perfectly! Hypothetically speaking, of course ;-) Just giving you grief, Damon  

My point is that you can't always control your schedule and your materials needs perfectly. Sometimes, you gotta hit the big box store for unplanned materials. It's good to have options. Again, ideally, I agree completely that it's better to plan ahead and get the right stuff online.

I have learned this lesson the hard way, though, and now I have about 10 tubes of silicone out in the garage right now 

Mark


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

@encyclia

To counter that argument regarding my stupidity lol, it would have taken around the same time to get new silicone and get the glass cut. But I completely understand what you mean. This hobby is all about patience IMO. I just don't want to mislead new members in their silicone choices. I made the mistake as well. I used GE 2 on my original corner tank! I guess it's a good thing that I cracked the glass drilling, I used ASI on the "new one" . 


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## Frogsarefun (Nov 25, 2015)

So I have always been very sensitive to the odor of silicone, have been using it for aquarium projects for years.
A few months ago we had some work done on our house and the contractors left a few tubes of GE ll, says it's 100 percent silicone, I couldn't believe that there was ALMOST NO fumes from this silicone.

How can two products both being 100 percent silicone smell so different?


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

@frogsarefun

I believe it's because stuff can be added to silicone such as mold inhibitors and it would still be 100% silicone. 


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@FRF,

As others have noted (search for the Bioseal thread), organotins change the fumes the curing silicone releases from Ascetic acid to ammonia - which is less irritating as your own experience indicates. These compounds have some anti-microbial properties, too - which are also touted as "mold proofing".


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Damon Ryan said:


> @encyclia
> 
> To counter that argument regarding my stupidity lol, it would have taken around the same time to get new silicone and get the glass cut. But I completely understand what you mean. This hobby is all about patience IMO. I just don't want to mislead new members in their silicone choices. I made the mistake as well. I used GE 2 on my original corner tank! I guess it's a good thing that I cracked the glass drilling, I used ASI on the "new one" .
> 
> ...


Yep, I think we are on the same page. It is definitely better policy to plan ahead and buy the stuff that you know is correct vs. navigating the relatively murky waters of big box silicone. I will also say that, at every big box store I have ever been to, there is no safe option for black or brown silicone - only clear. Interestingly, you can get safe silicone from Ace Hardware. Their store brand is safe (IIRC) and they sell black and brown. You pay a much higher price, though (over $7, I believe).

Mark


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

I always keep a tube of ge1 sitting near my vivarium, behind it.


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## smatthew (Nov 21, 2016)

Encyclia said:


> n the hard way, though, and now I have about 10 tubes of silicone out in the garage right now
> 
> Mark



Be careful about that silicone once it ages. Silicone 1 seems to handle aging fine - if it comes out of the tube it will set. But Silicone 2 will come out of the tube looking alright, and not set if it's too old. It's worth the 20-30 minute wait to test the silicone 2 first.

I had to tear out my GS background because the silicone I used to adhere coco fiber to the background with wouldn't set!


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

Lokirathehunter said:


> Damon Ryan, the new badass around here! Thanks for the post! Now let's post this under a new thread saying "safe cheap silicone"




I am flattered! 


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

smatthew said:


> Be careful about that silicone once it ages. Silicone 1 seems to handle aging fine - if it comes out of the tube it will set. But Silicone 2 will come out of the tube looking alright, and not set if it's too old. It's worth the 20-30 minute wait to test the silicone 2 first.
> 
> I had to tear out my GS background because the silicone I used to adhere coco fiber to the background with wouldn't set!


Good point, but as stated above, we shouldn't be using GE II for vivariums and those tubes won't be out there that long. I go through it pretty fast 

Mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Encyclia said:


> I hope this doesn't mean that some of the GE I that they make now has the organotin-based curing process. Do we now have to say that only the All Purpose GE I is safe? Any insights into that, Ed? Thanks very much for your other replies in this thread, too.


As noted by others before I got back to this thread, if it smells of the acetic acid, it doesn't contain the organotins which are the real concern at this time. . 



zonz540 said:


> Another way to interpret this is that maybe there is some native mold resistance in GE I (as Kipp was saying)


There is abundant documentation in the literature that what people believe is mold resistance isn't what they think it is .... I listed one reference above and I'll provide a second in little bit. While many molds/fungi cannot directly utilize the silicone as a nutrient source this does not mean that they cannot grow on it particularly in humid environments (like say bathrooms). The silicone surface does not prevent the formation of biofilms, collection of dust or other particulates and it is these sources that provide the nutritional source for the fungi (like Aspergillous niger). In turn the fungi create acidic conditions and secrete digestive enzymes which can discolor the silicone (see the reference I posted above). 

There are other biocides that are used in silicones but they aren't the same level of risk as depending on the biocide and the manufacturing process they can be bound to the silicone preventing ready movement, as an example some quatanary chemicals (like f [3-(trimethoxysilyl)
propyldimethyloctadecyl] ammonium chloride) function as biocides by disrupting the membranes of colonizing organisms. In an enclosure, the frog would have to actually be touching the silicone without it's mucosal coat before it would experience the irritation from this compound and it would simply move away from the material. 



Encyclia said:


> I think I remember that Ed has said in the past that the mold resistance claim is just a secondary benefit of the organotin-based curing compound, the first being a less-hostile work environment due to less smell than the acetic acid-based curing process. Am I right on that, Ed?


It is an added benefit for that product as it precludes the need to change the manufacturing process and the addition of other materials to the formulations so it is a cost effective item as it allows dual marketing without the additional overhead. 

See also De Buyl, Francois, and Henri Gastaldi. "Insights into the Use of Biocides in Silicones Sealants: Test Methods and Durability Aspects." Durability of Building and Construction Sealants and Adhesives. ASTM International, 2004.

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I also forgot to add Polyakova, A. V., et al. "Fungal resistance of sealants." Polymer Science Series D 9.2 (2016): 195-198. 


some comments 

Ed


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## C&C Exotics (Nov 12, 2015)

The debate goes on! I and several other froggers I know personally have always used GE II with 0 issues. Even spoke with a GE representative who stated the new revised GE II has no additives, it is in fact 100% silicone, just doesn't release the strong ammonia smell when uncured. I have tried the new GE I and had strong odor from it 3 weeks after applying and ended up scrapping the entire background. It seems this issue will keep coming up again and again, if you aren't willing to take "risks" just pay the extra $$ and go with aquarium silicone, like I said I'm a believer in GE II and never had issues.


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

C&C Exotics said:


> The debate goes on! I and several other froggers I know personally have always used GE II with 0 issues. Even spoke with a GE representative who stated the new revised GE II has no additives, it is in fact 100% silicone, just doesn't release the strong ammonia smell when uncured. I have tried the new GE I and had strong odor from it 3 weeks after applying and ended up scrapping the entire background. It seems this issue will keep coming up again and again, if you aren't willing to take "risks" just pay the extra $$ and go with aquarium silicone, like I said I'm a believer in GE II and never had issues.




I guess it also depends on breeding if you aren't going to breed does it matter which you use if it effects development of eggs?


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## wolfeingtons (Nov 2, 2012)

Talked to people at GE awhile back and they said GE 1 and GE II are the same thing. Just a marketing ploy to get people to buy different stuff for windows and doors or around the sink. That wouldn't surprise me at all.
Have used GE II forever before we had forums upon forums on it and have never seen any side effects.

With that said mine as well just get some aquarium sealant like the others were saying unless you have already started using GE stuff. Then you don't have to obsess over it for years like I did haha.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

C&C Exotics said:


> The debate goes on! I and several other froggers I know personally have always used GE II with 0 issues.


I'm always surprised at these sorts of claims since if you don't know the physiological issues that can result and use controls with a large enough sample size you cannot make this claim. 



C&C Exotics said:


> Even spoke with a GE representative who stated the new revised GE II has no additives, it is in fact 100% silicone, just doesn't release the strong ammonia smell when uncured.


And this right here is why you should know that they are different products ... GE II never released a strong ammonia smell, that was why it was offered for indoor applications. GE I has the strong vinegar (acetic acid odor) and if it doesn't smell of vinegar then it uses organotins to change the polymerization reaction and ammonia is the offgassing product not vinegar. 

Technically the organotins are not an additive... they are a catalyst that changes the curing process so the representative can tell you there are no additives and they would be right... and 100% silicone only refers to the product that polymerizes not the chemicals required to carry out that process. 



C&C Exotics said:


> I have tried the new GE I and had strong odor from it 3 weeks after applying and ended up scrapping the entire background. It seems this issue will keep coming up again and again, if you aren't willing to take "risks" just pay the extra $$ and go with aquarium silicone, like I said I'm a believer in GE II and never had issues.


The reason it takes so long to cure in those situation is because 
1) people use too much
2) It is used in a place that air circulation is limited so offgassing and curing takes much longer 

I have to note that the fact that you didn't smell the GE II isn't because it wasn't totally cured ... it was because you can smell acetic acid much more strongly at a lower concentration. You pretty much let the background cure with the animals and plants in the enclosure and while you claim you didn't see any issues you didn't have any controls to verify that claim. 

some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Was just about to submit a response and then saw Ed's.

So... I'm just going to copy and paste it because it bears repeating:



C&C Exotics said:


> Even spoke with a GE representative who stated the new revised GE II has no additives, it is in fact 100% silicone, just doesn't release the strong ammonia smell when uncured.





Ed said:


> *And this right here is why you should know that they are different products ... GE II never released a strong ammonia smell, that was why it was offered for indoor applications. GE I has the strong vinegar (acetic acid odor) and if it doesn't smell of vinegar then it uses organotins to change the polymerization reaction and ammonia is the offgassing product not vinegar.
> 
> Technically the organotins are not an additive... they are a catalyst that changes the curing process so the representative can tell you there are no additives and they would be right... and 100% silicone only refers to the product that polymerizes not the chemicals required to carry out that process.*


Can we please stop conflating this information now? It is the catalyst that is the problem. There is no debate about this. There is a risk factor involved in using GE II. It is fine if you are okay with that risk, you can use whatever you want. However - do not act as though it is not there.


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## C&C Exotics (Nov 12, 2015)

Carolina Vivariums said:


> I guess it also depends on breeding if you aren't going to breed does it matter which you use if it effects development of eggs?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Even when it comes to breeding, I have had my D. Auratus "Rio Cascajal" deposit tads in the water feature in the same tank using GE II and watched them grow. My largest froglets actually come out of the water feature in that tank, the ones I pull always start significantly smaller.


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## C&C Exotics (Nov 12, 2015)

carola1155 said:


> Can we please stop conflating this information now? It is the catalyst that is the problem. There is no debate about this. There is a risk factor involved in using GE II. It is fine if you are okay with that risk, you can use whatever you want. However - do not act as though it is not there.


 I've heard this so many times it gets tiring, I can't count the number of experienced froggers who have been in the hobby for YEARS who still use and stand by GE II. Yes there is a different catalyst but if fully cured what remains is indeed 100% silicone. The only reason GE even prints a "not for use in aquariums or below the water line" warning is for legal purposes, not because of safety factors. 
As far as your comments Ed, yes I'm very familiar with the catalysts used and what their differences are. What you smell during the curing process is a result of the release of these chemicals in order to cure the product. Once fully cured the catalyst has dissipated and is no longer a threat. GE I and GE II are indeed both 100% silicone completely safe when FULLY cured. 
Also, my issue with the smell was due to neither of your assumed factors. It was done in a exceedingly well ventilated area and was spread in a very thin layer. The problem was not uncured silicone, it was a lingering chemical (acetic acid) smell that I could not get to fully dicipate. On another not I did not let the animals/plants in the tank with curing silicone, the silicone was fully cured before any animals or plants were introduced to any tanks as I wait 3-4 weeks, sometimes more before planting... thanks for you concern though, as I said, "the debate continues".


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## C&C Exotics (Nov 12, 2015)

Sorry for so many comments but what makes GE II unsafe is the ammonia released during the curing process and mold inhibitors IF you buy the wrong type. There exists GE I and GE II which contain mold inhibitors and also without. As long as you buy it without the mold inhibitors and allow ample time for curing it is safe. This debate constantly arises in the fish community as well with some saying it killed their fish only to find out they did not allow enough time for the product to fully cure before introducing animals.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

C&C Exotics said:


> I've heard this so many times it gets tiring, I can't count the number of experienced froggers who have been in the hobby for YEARS who still use and stand by GE II. Yes there is a different catalyst but if fully cured what remains is indeed 100% silicone. The only reason GE even prints a "not for use in aquariums or below the water line" warning is for legal purposes, not because of safety factors.
> As far as your comments Ed, yes I'm very familiar with the catalysts used and what their differences are. What you smell during the curing process is a result of the release of these chemicals in order to cure the product. Once fully cured the catalyst has dissipated and is no longer a threat. GE I and GE II are indeed both 100% silicone completely safe when FULLY cured.
> Also, my issue with the smell was due to neither of your assumed factors. It was done in a exceedingly well ventilated area and was spread in a very thin layer. The problem was not uncured silicone, it was a lingering chemical (acetic acid) smell that I could not get to fully dicipate. On another not I did not let the animals/plants in the tank with curing silicone, the silicone was fully cured before any animals or plants were introduced to any tanks as I wait 3-4 weeks, sometimes more before planting... thanks for you concern though, as I said, "the debate continues".


There is a lot of wrong stuff in here, I am afraid. You need to stop repeating what you have been told by lots of different people and look at the facts instead. There can be differences between products labeled "100% silicone." That's how I know that "100% silicone" means nothing. Just look at the MSDS documents and compare GE II vs. GE I. They aren't the same and therefore you can't rely on that badging. 

The fact is that GE II has a catalyst in it (an organotin) that has been documented to have negative effects on animals. These effects may not manifest for a few generations which is why I completely dismiss the "I and a bunch of other cool people have used this stuff for years and haven't had any problems" argument. You just don't know. You might think you do, but you can't know what the impact is long term. No one can. I would love to be able to enjoy some of these frogs after they are gone from the wild (which will happen) and that long term goal is jeopardized by people who are willing to use products that can damage their genetics in ways that don't immediately impact the phenotype/behavior.

As for your argument that fully cured silicone somehow magically locks away the catalyst compound, this is also false. According to a friend of mine who has had a PhD in environmental toxicology for over 30 years, the organotins are still mobile even after the product has cured completely.

So, I will echo what Tom and Ed have said. I will take real evidence substantiated by scientists and peer-reviewed literature over what hobbyists (and even at least one zoo, apparently) have said, regardless of how many years they have been using the product. I will not be using GE II since there is a risk and there are other readily-available products available.

As for the people that still defend the use of GE II and other products known to be harmful to animals, I know that I will not be buying any animals from them when I know what their practices are. 

I do appreciate that even some of the GE II advocates acknowledge that there are better alternatives out there that should be used rather than GE II. If you are reading this thread sometime down the line, please pay attention to this point, at least.

Mark


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