# No fertile eggs from southern variabilis



## Sarahdactyl (Jul 14, 2020)

I have a group of 3.2 southern variabilis in an Insitu Amazonia (22.25” x 17.5” footprint, 24” tall).

I’ve had 2.1 of them since roughly late august 2020. I actually bought a group of 2.2 and they were mature when I received them. Sadly, months ago one of the females mysteriously disappeared after I did some maintenance on their viv. I still feel guilty about that 😐 she had to have slipped by me somehow…

I bought 2 froglets from Josh’s frogs basically to try to make myself feel better. Bad choice, I know. They turned out to be 1.1.

I supplement every feeding (melanogaster) with Repashy calcium plus or Rana-vit (whichever I grab first). I’ve increased their vitamin A to twice a month hoping that I’d finally get some viable eggs but so far it hasn’t made a difference. I use Rana-A and have also used Repashy vitamin A plus. I do have a bad habit of leaving supplements out of the fridge bc the fridge is 2 floors down but I compensate by buying replacements every couple of months or less. I’ll work on that…

I just received a device from Inkbird yesterday to help keep a closer eye on temps and humidity when I’m not around. I’ve never had a reading that was too concerning with my infrared thermometer. There were a few days over the summer that I left the lights off because the temp was slightly above 80 at the top of their viv.

I’d like to remove at least one male because I saw some concerning behavior just once. Two of them were sort of calling at each other and pushing each other… they’re soo difficult to find/catch!

The only other bad habit I have that I’m aware of is over feeding. I need to lay off it and wait a few days between to ensure they’re eating dusted flies and not the leftovers once they’ve shaken all of the supplements off. I blow the flies all over the viv and I definitely see them actively hunting.

I did have a snail problem for quite a while but it seems to be under control at this time.

I think I’ve covered everything… I hope someone can help me 🙏


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

How do you know the eggs are not viable? Are you pulling them and trying to raise them?


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## Sarahdactyl (Jul 14, 2020)

Chris S said:


> How do you know the eggs are not viable? Are you pulling them and trying to raise them?


I’ve tried both leaving them and removing them. They always turn white and fuzzy.

I believe these came from the young female just 2 days ago. They already looked grayish when I found them. I had seen them courting all day so they’re definitely pretty fresh…

I guess since the young female just started laying I’m not as worried but the older female has been laying for over a year and still nothing viable so it’s gotta be something I’m doing.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Could be the older female. Maybe remove her, and see if the younger one starts to produce some viable eggs. Do they ever get past the stage above, where you start to see them dividing? It could just as easily be the more dominant male too - likely only one pair is actively breeding.

You could also try to leave the eggs and provide deposition sites you can check for tadpoles in - use the film canister, but keep them on a more vertical orientation filled with water and see if any tadpoles arrive. This may be hit and miss because it looks like you have some large bromeliads like vriesa which also make for great tad deposition sites - but sometimes they prefer the canisters if they have already dumped tads in the broms. Worth a try anyway, certainly can't hurt.


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## Sarahdactyl (Jul 14, 2020)

Hm


Chris S said:


> Could be the older female. Maybe remove her, and see if the younger one starts to produce some viable eggs. Do they ever get past the stage above, where you start to see them dividing? It could just as easily be the more dominant male too - likely only one pair is actively breeding.
> 
> You could also try to leave the eggs and provide deposition sites you can check for tadpoles in - use the film canister, but keep them on a more vertical orientation filled with water and see if any tadpoles arrive. This may be hit and miss because it looks like you have some large bromeliads like vriesa which also make for great tad deposition sites - but sometimes they prefer the canisters if they have already dumped tads in the broms. Worth a try anyway, certainly can't hurt.


I’ve never seen the eggs start dividing.

I can remove the older female. Should I try to identify the dominant male and remove him as well? I honestly haven’t been able to tell which one is dominant… the three older frogs are always together. Both older males are always present in the canister when the female lays too.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

There's a slim, almost impossible, chance your males haven't figured out fertilization yet. Almost impossible at this age but you never know. My group has been breeding for four months now and I still see entire clutches fail. The tads my male moved yesterday were from a clutch where 2 of 4 eggs developed.


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## Sarahdactyl (Jul 14, 2020)

JasonE said:


> There's a slim, almost impossible, chance your males haven't figured out fertilization yet. Almost impossible at this age but you never know. My group has been breeding for four months now and I still see entire clutches fail. The tads my male moved yesterday were from a clutch where 2 of 4 eggs developed.


Yeah that’s what I figured. That’s why I’m reaching out to find out what I’m doing wrong…


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## mikestra (Oct 16, 2008)

Sarahdactyl said:


> I do have a bad habit of leaving supplements out of the fridge bc the fridge is 2 floors down but I compensate by buying replacements every couple of months or less.


Google "personal mini fridge." I picked one up last year for this exact reason. Changed my life.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Sarahdactyl said:


> I still feel guilty about that 😐 she had to have slipped by me somehow…


I've got no great advice on your central question, but please don't beat yourself up over this. I've had this happen, too, but with a leucomelas -- nearly impossible to miss, I would've thought.


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## Gadbery (Feb 14, 2020)

mikestra said:


> Google "personal mini fridge." I picked one up last year for this exact reason. Changed my life.


I actually buy some of those silicon packs you find in beef jerky. I then split my supplement container into smaller bags and drop one of those in it. Then vacuum seal the bags. So i basically have little 2 month use packs and when its out i grab a new pack out of the freezer to use. Otherwise id never be able to use a container of supplements as I only have 1 tank with 3 frogs.


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## Sarahdactyl (Jul 14, 2020)

mikestra said:


> Google "personal mini fridge." I picked one up last year for this exact reason. Changed my life.


buying one as we speak. Ty!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Gadbery said:


> I actually buy some of those silicon packs you find in beef jerky. I then split my supplement container into smaller bags and drop one of those in it. Then vacuum seal the bags. So i basically have little 2 month use packs and when its out i grab a new pack out of the freezer to use. Otherwise id never be able to use a container of supplements as I only have 1 tank with 3 frogs.


Supplements should be refrigerated. It is said that freezing accelerates vitamin degradation.

Also, the desiccant packs reduce the amount of free water in the bag, but not the oxygen so they don't prevent oxidation. The vacuum sealing procedure might, though; I don't know. If anyone else tries this method, be aware that there are food-contact safe desiccant packs, and non-food-safe ones. Only the former are suitable.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Sarahdactyl said:


> Hm
> 
> 
> I’ve never seen the eggs start dividing.
> ...


I'd start with one or the other, and then see if there is a change. Then you can easily identify what the problem might be.

I suspect you may also have eggs being laid elsewhere in the tank - even possibly some tadpoles that have been deposited. Hard to tell if they drop them in a brom, as these guys don't egg feed once they deposit.


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## Gadbery (Feb 14, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Supplements should be refrigerated. It is said that freezing accelerates vitamin degradation.
> 
> Also, the desiccant packs reduce the amount of free water in the bag, but not the oxygen so they don't prevent oxidation. The vacuum sealing procedure might, though; I don't know. If anyone else tries this method, be aware that there are food-contact safe desiccant packs, and non-food-safe ones. Only the former are suitable.


ooo was not aware of the possible uselessness of freezing... maybe its not such a good idea then. But agreed definitely pay attention to what pack you use. I have food safe ones as i use them for sealing venison jerky bags each year. good point though that I failed to mention!!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Gadbery said:


> I have food safe ones as i use them for sealing venison jerky bags each year. good point though that I failed to mention!!


You did imply it -- I was merely clarifying for future readers.  

It is a great idea you have, though -- many keepers are in the same situation with just a few frogs.


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## Gadbery (Feb 14, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> You did imply it -- I was merely clarifying for future readers.
> 
> It is a great idea you have, though -- many keepers are in the same situation with just a few frogs.



Do like the sharing supplements tho. Will look into outher keepers near me. I have a guy named Jack Schonhoff down the road from me but he has a lot of frogs so he likely cant split supplemnts. bound to be others near me tho


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## DieHydei (Apr 11, 2021)

Something I’ve noticed with mine- they love film canisters that are surprisingly full of water. In the picture yours seem to only have a small volume- I know this works for many however that isn’t my experience. 
Try placing canisters that are more than 50% full of water and see your success. I also have had the most success with leaving them in for at least 18 hours before pulling.
These are the only differences I’ve seen from my setup and your post.

Good luck with your spawns good sir


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