# If you could only have 2 feeders, which ones would you keep ?



## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Living in Michigan is difficult keeping feeder insects in the next few months. I keep my house 68 in the living room (where my frogs are) the rest of the house is 65 or colder in the spare bedrooms. Before I get hollered at & the post derailed (like a lot of people like to do) for keeping it too cool for my frogs I will tell you I have a false bottom in my tank with an aquarium heater, the tank is kept at 75 degrees.

I made up a small cabinet with a 25 watt heater bulb & that maintains the temp inside the cabinet around 72 - 76 degrees. I have mite paper on the floor of the cabinet. It will only hold a couple of fruit fly cultures & maybe 1 shoebox culture of my choice of feeder insect, 
As I need to keep the cultures about 8 inches or so away from the bulb. 

I hope I described things well enough so the post dont get side tracked with a bunch of what if questions. Oh, forgot to say the tank is a 30 gallon aquarium with sliding front doors sitting on a wooden aquarium tank stand like you see in the fish stores. The cabinet heater I described is below the frog tank as I know from searching the forum I will get replies saying keep the feeder insects next to the warm tank. 

Also the frogs are Azureus. 

Shew, with all that said what 2 feeder insects would you keep culturing & why ? I think it's pretty safe to say fruit flies as number 1, so what would be number 2 ?

Springtails ? Bean beetles ? Flour beetles ? Isopods ? Currently I have all of them but am getting ready for winter & I know I will be fighting low temps for optimal cultures. 

Thanks in advance for your opinions,
Dan


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Bean beatles if you plan on only keeping azueres. Many people have even switched to bean beatles as their staple. For any tincs, springtails are good to have in the viv to help keep it clean and to supplement your feeders. I wouldn't rely on them a food staple. You can always have a couple types of fruit flies instead on one species.


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## KDuraiswamy (Dec 2, 2012)

mongo77 said:


> You can always have a couple types of fruit flies instead on one species.


Beginner question: What's the advantage of having different types of fruit flies?

Thanks in advance!


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

mongo77 said:


> Bean beatles if you plan on only keeping azueres. Many people have even switched to bean beatles as their staple. For any tincs, springtails are good to have in the viv to help keep it clean and to supplement your feeders. I wouldn't rely on them a food staple. You can always have a couple types of fruit flies instead on one species.


I'm pleasantly surprised to see bean beetles, interesting. My azueres don't seem to be particularly fond of them though. Hmmmm..............


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

In my opinion, since you have two tincs, I would go for the bean beetles. The springs are too small to rely on if your fruit flies should crash... and Isopods take too long to reproduce. (Although I recommend both for in-tank maintenance and supplementation.) You can, however, get a few good producing cultures of beetles going and have absolutely no worries. I would recommend keeping them in a warmer place than your current room temps. You could keep a few cultures on top of your water heater for example.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

dan d said:


> I'm pleasantly surprised to see bean beetles, interesting. My azueres don't seem to be particularly fond of them though. Hmmmm..............


 It will sometimes take a few tries before they will take them...especially if they're young. I actually had one frog who was scared to death of them in the beginning and would climb to the top of plants when they were placed in the tank! Lol! But...not anymore!

I ususally start all of my tincs on them at about 4 months of age. Personally...I love beetles!


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

I am being blown away with the bean beetle replies ! They were the least on my list, not so much as taking care of them as they are easy, but my azueres just don't seem to love them. 

Good point on them being big enough to use as a back up to a fruit fly crash as that's part of the reason for keeping backup cultures. I'm glad I posted this question as I'm pleasantly surprised with the answers !

Thanks,
Dan


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here's an awesome tutorial for continuous bean beetles 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/88858-continuous-bean-beetles.html

My tincs love bean beetles and I love the bean beetle shuffle the do when they eat them. Definitely keep bean beetles. For flies, I like Turkish Gliders because they move around a lot and really get the frog's attention.

Oh, I meant to say, you should also have springs and isos in the tank and on hand but don't consider them a food source.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

KDuraiswamy said:


> Beginner question: What's the advantage of having different types of fruit flies?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Because the hydei don't produce as fast as the melo's. Also the care is similar and gives variety to the frogs. If you wanted you can put both types in one culture. Just add a little more media.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

mongo77 said:


> Because the hydei don't produce as fast as the melo's. Also the care is similar and gives variety to the frogs. If you wanted you can put both types in one culture. Just add a little more media.


But is there an actual advantage to it besides variety? Why not just stick with melanos? (Serious question, not being snarky.) I've been using Turkish Gliders since I started...never saw any reason to mess with the hydei. I seem to see more posts about them being more of a hassle than melanos.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Kris...have you tried the continuous culturing? I'd love to hear that it's working for others as well. Usually, I get questions...but no one ever updates me on it.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

If the azureus don't like them, don't culture them! I'd vote for Costa Rican purple isopods


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> Kris...have you tried the continuous culturing? I'd love to hear that it's working for others as well. Usually, I get questions...but no one ever updates me on it.


I've just started recently, Right now they are having a bloom. I'll let you know how it goes long term. I'll post it to your thread


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Frogface, thanks for the link to Wendy's post:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/88858-continuous-bean-beetles.html

A lot of good info there, I particularly like the custom lid Wendy made to shake out the beetles & bean Partials. Thanks for that info Wendy ! 

Frogparty, I have only fed my frogs bean beetles once or twice before & never really gave them the opportunity to see if they like them or not. Kinda like me & veggies, I make faces eating them for a first time but after finding out they are not as bad as I imagine them to be I do eat them. Lol


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

You're absolutely welcome! I think the main problem is that people give up to easy. They see their frog run and hide from them, or eat one and spit it back out, or eat one and do the belly dance...and they think that it's just not worth the trouble.

But, if you introduce them a little at a time with every regular feeding (but a smaller amount) of flies, they will come around and figure out that they love beetles. It may take a few weeks...but I don't have a single tinc, terribilis, bicolor, or leuc here who would turn them away. For a while (when my frogroom was temporarily lost for 6 months to a son who moved back in.) I was having troubles with my fruit fly cultures and I thank the Bean Beetle God that I had beetles to fall back on. The froglets got the flies that I managed to keep going, but all of the adults were feasting on the beetles as their main source of food.


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

WendySHall said:


> You're absolutely welcome! I think the main problem is that people give up to easy. They see their frog run and hide from them, or eat one and spit it back out, or eat one and do the belly dance...


Lol on the belly dance............. You described me to a T ! I saw the belly dance & quit feeding them bean beetles. I can tell I need to re-introduce them to my frogs. 

Thanks !
Dan


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

WendySHall said:


> But is there an actual advantage to it besides variety? Why not just stick with melanos? (Serious question, not being snarky.) I've been using Turkish Gliders since I started...never saw any reason to mess with the hydei. I seem to see more posts about them being more of a hassle than melanos.


That I'm not sure of. Maybe Ed can chime in if the two types have any noticeable nutritional differences. With Azures I guess the melanos would be easier. If he was keeping larger frogs such as terriblis, they may go for the hydei and ignore the melanos.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

The benefit of choosing isopods would be their Calcium based exoskeletons, not chitin, which also bioaccumulate minerals. Great for your frogs. 
for a quick breakdown:
http://ap.netzschcdn.com/uploads/tx...3uW~Ru3YzEw_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIBNUHYIJDHQEJVRQ


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

by contrast chitin doesnt provide the ready mineral source that isopod exoskeletons do 
Chitin metabolism in insects: structure, function and regulation of chitin synthases and chitinases


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Speaking of isopods being a choice that will add some calcium benefit, did you know that you can keep a running culture of several thousand dwarf purple isopods in a very small container? I have several dwarf purple cultures measuring only about 4" x 4" x 4". They are vented with .3 micron filters, allowing me to run the density very high. There are easily thousands in each one.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Exactly. Super low maintenance for high output!


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Speaking of isopods being a choice that will add some calcium benefit, did you know that you can keep a running culture of several thousand dwarf purple isopods in a very small container? I have several dwarf purple cultures measuring only about 4" x 4" x 4". They are vented with .3 micron filters, allowing me to run the density very high. There are easily thousands in each one.


Now your making my decision a lot tougher ! 
Hmmmm....... Bean beetles or Isopods, hmmmm....................... 

Nutritional benifit is a big part of my decision, hmmmmm............


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

isopods for the win!!!!!


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

How long would it take to produce a thousand dwarf purples, from say a 50 iso starter culture?
A person can easily culture a thousand bean beetles in one generation from a single culture.
BTW, there are more benefits to isos than just the added benefit of calcium.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Reef_Haven said:


> How long would it take to produce a thousand dwarf purples, from say a 50 iso starter culture?
> A person can easily culture a thousand bean beetles in one generation from a single culture.
> BTW, there are more benefits to isos than just the added benefit of calcium.


I'm aware of the other benefits, but the difference in exoskeleton composition is, I feel, often overlooked. 

I think it would take quite a while to produce 1000 from 50, six to 8 weeks minimum, but for me the maintenance is so low that I'd rather have the Isopods than bean beetles or rice weevils.


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Reef_Haven said:


> BTW, there are more benefits to isos than just the added benefit of calcium.


I'm curious to learn about the other benefits ? Please tell, 
Thank You,
Dan


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

If you were keeping azureus you could also co-culture melanogaster and hydei in the same culture.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

dan d said:


> I'm curious to learn about the other benefits ? Please tell,
> Thank You,
> Dan


This thread is a good read.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/24586-desirability-importance-isopods-pillbugs-vivarium.html

They are also, IMO the perfect feeder for establishing wild caught frogs into captivity. A lot of fresh import frogs won't take to dusted fruit flies right away. Isopods are a very familiar food source for them.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I think the calcium and mineral accumulations in the exoskeletons is key. Therses likely no better way to ensure that you get the most out of your calcium substrate. I doubt that particulate sticking to springtails delivers even 20% of what gets bioaccumulated into the isopods. 

With the purples, theyre easy to coax to the surface of the leaf litter with food. I took Pumilo's advice and tried banana......BINGO! 

The dwarf grey are often out and about on the surface too, while the dwarf whites and Tor Linbos are, for me, usually invisible. I bet at night its a different story, or under the first few leaves of a solid leaf litter layer. 

Plus, if you ever want some smaller frogs.........a food source good for everything. I cant envision any Ranitomeya or pumilio eating bean beetles


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

WendySHall said:


> But is there an actual advantage to it besides variety? Why not just stick with melanos? (Serious question, not being snarky.) I've been using Turkish Gliders since I started...never saw any reason to mess with the hydei. I seem to see more posts about them being more of a hassle than melanos.


Did some digging around for this. Mostly a preference thing it seems. Hydei do seem to be a bit meatier by weight:
Food-Doyle's Dart Den

Edit:
Hydei also seem to have almost twice the percent of calcium.

Oh, and as an answer to the OP I'd keep FFs and springs


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

hypostatic said:


> Did some digging around for this. Mostly a preference thing it seems. Hydei do seem to be a bit meatier by weight:
> Food-Doyle's Dart Den
> 
> Edit:
> ...


Such a hard decision right?! Honestly I don't bother with keeping up spring populations in my leuc or Olemarie vivs. I do definitely make sure there's plenty of Isopods. 
I would not DREAM of keeping Ranitomeya without springs. Even though purple isos are tiny I think that springtails are crucial for success. 

However, ALL my tanks get seeded with springtails, and at least a few are always present in all my vivs. I think it's just a part of a good healthy viv set up


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I don't disagree that isos are a great food for any dart. I mainly just seed my tank when I start it up and I continually see masses of babies constantly. But, to use them as a back up source of food when you have more than a couple of tincs? It wouldn't take long for them to go through an iso culture.

Bean beetles only take me a few seconds a week when it comes to care. Once a week, I throw some beetles into what will be a new continuous culture. At the end of the month, it's ready to feed out. It produces many, many, many beetles very well every week for at least two months before petering out. That, to me, is not much work at all.


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Wendy you for sure have me convinced to try bean beetles (as you already know this  ) 

My only concern is that my azureus get used to them & don't run around gagging & belly dancing every time I feed them ! That would lead me to think they don't like them & I would have a hard time feeding my frogs something they don't like. 

I'm sure going to give it a try & give them some time to get used to them. Thanks for all your help Wendy ! 

I am also going to take the others advice & I purchased some dwarf white isopods & purple isopods to culture & see how they work out. I currently feed fruit flies so obviously I will keep them going until I see if the bean beetles could be my primary food source & isopods as a backup / speciality food to mix things up for them. 

Great replies !
Thanks,
Dan


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I hope you have great success with them, Dan.  But...try not to worry so much about the gag/belly dance. I think this is why most people give up. I think the reason they gag is because it's just not what they're expecting or used to eating. Beetles tend to be a little harder and larger than most of our feeders. And I think that the belly dance is because of the beetles being larger, they're easier to feel them wiggling around in their bellies after they've been swallowed. So...both of these take some time to get used to. The gag disappears after a while, but I still occasionally get to see a minor belly dance. 

And...if you think about it...if they simply did not like them, they would not continue to eat them. I've heard numerous stories of people trying different feeders that their frogs wouldn't touch. They may be a little leary of beetles in the beginning...but it doesn't take very long before the frogs come running out to eat when they're placed in the tank. Just make sure your frogs are big enough to handle them (I start around 4 months). Try replacing one fly feeding a week in the beginning with beetles and slowly increase from that. That way, you don't feel like you're starving your frogs and any uneaten beetles are still crawling around the tank for your frogs to try again at their leisure.

Good job on the iso purchase too! I'm a big believer of keeping at least a few different feeder sources on hand and have several different ones myself...sometimes I think I have too many! Bugs can be almost as addicting as frogs!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hi Wendy, I do NOT know bean beetles. Thumbnails don't eat them, so I don't work with them. You do, so let me ask you this, please. 
Did you catch that Dan stated he may try them as his primary feeder. This sure sounds as he he wants to eliminate flies. My question is this, will enough vitamin dust stick to beetles, to allow for proper nutrition?


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Vitamins stick to the beatles just fine.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Hi Doug! Mongo's right...the supplements stick to the beetles very well. I also use them as my primary feeder for adult tincs...so (although I'm not a scientist) I believe they are receiving proper nutrition. Some states like Michigan (Dan) and Ohio (me) have widely varying humidity levels throughout the year and it can be hard to keep fruit flies in their happy place. They do seem to do well for me in a closet...so maybe that is something that more people can try. I also think that since tincs take a greater amount of food to keep them fed, beetles are wonderful! They are larger and you can get a huge amount out of one single continuous culture. They also aren't prone to mites like fruit flies are. I can honestly say that's one problem I've never experienced with them...even cultures over 4 months old!

Here's a pic of the dusted beetles. I already fed frogs this morning, so it's just a few, but it should give you an idea...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

OK, thanks, just checking.


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Hi Wendy,
> Did you catch that Dan stated he may try them as his primary feeder. This sure sounds as he he wants to eliminate flies. My question is this, will enough vitamin dust stick to beetles, to allow for proper nutrition?


Doug, thanks for asking that question ! Yes, I am thinking of using them as my primary feeder as I just struggle with fruit flies. As Wendy noted the northern states can vary a lot in humidity and I am fighting temps real bad right now.

I have air conditioning, but my central air is either set to air or heat, I cannot have both at the same setting. So let's say it gets down to 40 degrees (like it did last night) my house is in the upper 60's by morning, then by 4 pm today it was 78 & my house warmed up to about that as the sun was beating down quite nicely this afternoon. 

I have a 25 watt bulb in a cabinet to maintain a mid to upper 70's when my house is in the upper 60's. I go to work by 5:30 am just to find out my house is 74 when I get home & the lightbulb in the cabinet has the temp up to 82. Probably steralizing my flies ! 

If I don't use the lightbuld the cooler fall temps will shut down fruit fly production. Come winter my furnace keeps my house a steady 68 & the 25 watt bulb keeps the cabinet that the flies are in a nice steady 76 - 78 degrees. But spring & fall temp extremes are a roller coaster ride here. My house was built in 1980 so the insulation is not to today's standards so that probably causes the temp swings, along with 4 huge south facing windows that allow the warm sun to warm the house up like a greenhouse in the spring & fall. 

I am hoping the beetles will be a little bit more accommodating to the temp swings, from what I have read (learned online) they reproduce down to the 50's however at a slower pace. I think Wendy has a great idea of using bean beetles ! 

I will find out in the months to come if it is possible to reproduce & feed as a primary food, in the meantime I have other food sources as backup (fruit flies, flour beetles & isopods)

Thanks everyone for the good informative replies ! I will keep you posted here on my experiment of using bean beetles as a primary food source.

Dan


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## kenstyles (Sep 11, 2013)

I wonder if you can put a storage container/tub in the cold room fill it with a few inches of water, place an aquarium heater in the water and store the FF cultures in there. Will that keep them alive?


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

kenstyles said:


> I wonder if you can put a storage container/tub in the cold room fill it with a few inches of water, place an aquarium heater in the water and store the FF cultures in there. Will that keep them alive?


A glass fish tank would be safer as a heater accident could melt a hole in a storage container and start a fire. You'll also need a full cover for the tank to reduce water evaporation which would be very high in this application.


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

kenstyles said:


> I wonder if you can put a storage container/tub in the cold room fill it with a few inches of water, place an aquarium heater in the water and store the FF cultures in there. Will that keep them alive?


A few years back I played around with that very idea, it grew mold very well ! The fruit flies did not like the high humidity. Now I only gave that idea a quick try, there might be ways to tweak it in but first attempt at it failed miserably !

You have sparked an idea though, I wonder if I could rig up a reasonably priced thermostat to my lightbulb heater setup. Hmmmmm..........

Might need to do some research !
Thanks for the post, it triggered some ideas.
Dan


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

dan d said:


> A few years back I played around with that very idea, it grew mold very well ! The fruit flies did not like the high humidity. Now I only gave that idea a quick try, there might be ways to tweak it in but first attempt at it failed miserably !
> 
> You have sparked an idea though, I wonder if I could rig up a reasonably priced thermostat to my lightbulb heater setup. Hmmmmm..........
> 
> ...


On second thought, I prefer Dan's lightbulb heater to an aquarium heater in water. A covered aquarium with an aquarium heater in water would also cause condensation to collect on the cover and drip on the cultures. 

When it comes to thermostat controls, I prefer Ranco. I've found them on eBay and Craig's list for $30 to $40 used and already wired. I'd rather use a used Ranco than a new controller designed for aquariums.


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## dan d (Aug 9, 2008)

radiata said:


> On second thought, I prefer Dan's lightbulb heater to an aquarium heater in water. A covered aquarium with an aquarium heater in water would also cause condensation to collect on the cover and drip on the cultures.
> 
> When it comes to thermostat controls, I prefer Ranco. I've found them on eBay and Craig's list for $30 to $40 used and already wired. I'd rather use a used Ranco than a new controller designed for aquariums.


I will have to check out this Ranco thermostat control, I looked at a few yesterday on a google search & was not happy with what I found.

The lightbulb setup is pretty safe, I am only using a 25 watt bulb so it does not get real hot. The cabinet is probably 30 inches long, 18 inches deep & 18 inches tall. Not a large space, but big enough to place the bulb in the center & have 8 or so culture's inside. I can stack my springtail cultures inside, I think I could even stack the fruit fly cultures if I wanted to but 8 cultures is enough for me. I have mite paper on the floor of the cabinet. 

Thanks,
Dan


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