# The Green and Black Auratus Conundrum



## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

I have been looking around the bard for quite sometime for an answer for this but only ended up becoming more confused. As you all know, there are at the very least 3 forms of green and black _dendrobates auratus_ in the hobby. At the moment, there is no guide to identifying them. Someone on Dendroboard once said "if you had on of each in hand, you can see the differences. Does anyone here have 2 or more different green and black morphs to look at and point out the differences in Panamaian, Costa Rican, and Nicaraguan auratus?


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

I find the nicaraguan auratus and the costa rican auratus are the hardest to tell apart, especially when they are not adults yet. The difference, to me, is a subtle difference in the color and the shape and borders of the green patterning. I have never looked ventrally and that may be a better way to tell (or worse). There are similar Panamanian auratus in existence but have not seen any in captivity that I think you could easily confuse with the Costa Rican or Nicaraguan. The Panamanian auratus in the hobby are more brown/green or if they are black they have a lighter green color. 

The best answer: find a breeder who has kept good records on his frogs and got them from a reliable source.

The "Costa Rican" auratus at this point can be viewed as "mutts" unless someone happens to have a group that can track back its lineage very far and with a minimal amount of generations (or if some have been imported "recently" for science).

The Nicaraguan auratus seem to come from a much more limited stock. To date I only know of 3 hobbyists who have WC frogs (or decedents of their wild caughts) OR captive bred ones that do not trace back to someone else wild caughts.

are you looking to tell them apart for classification/sorting reasons or just as a way to find others from the same "morph/locale"


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Matt Mirabello said:


> are you looking to tell them apart for classification/sorting reasons or just as a way to find others from the same "morph/locale"


Yes, I recently obtained a wild-caught green and black Auratus who was essentially abandoned with someone who was petsitting it (the frog was only supposed to stay one week and the person just didn't come back for it) . The original owner "picked it up" while on vacation and kept for a short time before leaving it with them. The frog looks very similar to my old Nicaraguans, but its country of origin is unknown.









My other reason for asking this is out simple curiousity. None of the auratus guides on the internet even try to differentiate between the various "green and blacks".


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Well if they "picked it up" while on vacation, is there a good chance it is a costarican? I cant imagine someone going to either of the other two places just for a vacation... Mayeb panama, but definately not nicaragua... sad someone would do that. Good looking frog in any case.

Just out of curiosity, what do the Hawaiin Auratus look like... could that be an option?


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

housevibe7 said:


> Well if they "picked it up" while on vacation, is there a good chance it is a costarican? I cant imagine someone going to either of the other two places just for a vacation... Mayeb panama, but definately not nicaragua... sad someone would do that. Good looking frog in any case.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what do the Hawaiin Auratus look like... could that be an option?


Thanks for complimenting the frog! It has made some serious progress in the first 2 weeks. 

I've ruled out Hawaiian, as they have brownish dark patches and they have a somewhat golden tinge to their green. This frog is giant in comparison to my friend's Hawaii retics as well. 









I just realized the photo of it has washed out it's color. The auratus is a deep, metallic green with shiny black patches and a slight bluish tint to the underside. Maybe that will help to ID it.

Also, some people do go to Panama and Nicaragua. Not on vacations, but mission trips. This guy could have been to any of these places and snuck the frog back in a sock. That is pretty disturing.


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

Onagro said:


> Yes, I recently obtained a wild-caught green and black Auratus who was essentially abandoned with someone who was petsitting it. The original owner "picked it up" while on vacation and kept for a short time before leaving it with them.


Knowing the country the frog originated from would be good to know but is not essential. The best information you will get is from the person that originally obtained the frog. In my opinion the best thing to do is to keep this frog isolated for the rest of its life. It does not need companionship to live out the rest of its life very healthy and active. If it were to be kept with another frog I would only do so for the sake of giving "companionship" to another orphaned frog (or frog of unknown lineage). I stress heavily that no breeding should be allowed since the frog is of unknown origin AND the frog should remain isolated until it has tested negative for chytrid.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Matt Mirabello said:


> Onagro said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I recently obtained a wild-caught green and black Auratus who was essentially abandoned with someone who was petsitting it. The original owner "picked it up" while on vacation and kept for a short time before leaving it with them.
> ...


Fortunately, it was taken to an exotics vet where it tested positive for worms. I thought maybe the worms would allow me to ID it, but as the vet stated, "See one worm, You've seen them all". It seems to be doing well after two weeks of treatments. It's come a long way from the day I saw it inflating itself at the sight of its sitter.

I am going to see if I can contact that guy, maybe he can at least say where he found it.


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## pet-teez (Oct 3, 2007)

I hate to sidetrack your post a smidgeon but I was wondering about my Auratus...
Mellow got him/her as a Panamanian G&B but most the time she looks more teal or blue to me and from what I've read the Panamanians are usually just green (and more dark/chocolate brown than black)...
Would anyone say this lil guy is any other kind or does the (rather general sounding) Panama sound appropriate?
http://www.dendroboard.com/member-s-frogs-vivariums/topic38199.html

Thanks in advance!


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

pet-teez said:


> I hate to sidetrack your post a smidgeon but I was wondering about my Auratus...
> Mellow got him/her as a Panamanian G&B but most the time she looks more teal or blue to me and from what I've read the Panamanians are usually just green (and more dark/chocolate brown than black)...
> Would anyone say this lil guy is any other kind or does the (rather general sounding) Panama sound appropriate?
> http://www.dendroboard.com/member-s-frogs-vivariums/topic38199.html
> ...


It's alright, that's why this thread was made  

Your Auratus looks like a Panamanian morph. A very nice looking one at that. Panama's Auratus are very diverse and the frog farms don't keep locale data very often but the teal color is a give-away on their Green and Blacks.

Also, I managed to find out where mine was captured. It was taken from Costa Rica. At least I know what it is now. We need an auratus field guide on this board.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Nobody has mentioned the Atlantic and Pacific versants of auratus, at least in CR. Even within the same country the frogs appear considerably different depending on which side of the country they are found. Most of the G&B 'Costa Rica' frogs are Atlantic versant. I don't like calling them "mutts" though. I prefer "Costa Rican Wild type of undescribed locality". They are still wonderful frogs to have in a collection if you just want to enjoy the beauty and behavior of a "typical" auratus.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

bbrock said:


> Nobody has mentioned the Atlantic and Pacific versants of auratus, at least in CR. Even within the same country the frogs appear considerably different depending on which side of the country they are found. Most of the G&B 'Costa Rica' frogs are Atlantic versant. I don't like calling them "mutts" though. I prefer "Costa Rican Wild type of undescribed locality". They are still wonderful frogs to have in a collection if you just want to enjoy the beauty and behavior of a "typical" auratus.


You know, I didn't even know about the Pacific and Atlantic variants. That means technically, there are 6 green and black auratus types to catologue. 

Panamanian green
Nicaraguan
Costa Rican Atlantic
Costa Rican Pacific
Pastores
Oyo De Aqua

Have I forgotten any?


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

Onagro said:


> Panamanian green
> Nicaraguan
> Costa Rican Atlantic
> Costa Rican Pacific
> ...


Brent, thanks for commenting on Costa Rican auratus not being "Mutts" your definition is the one I should have used. In actuality the Nicaraguan auratus are in the same category as the Costa rican auratus.

As for the other "morphs" of auratus there are many of them. Panama seems to have a unique form in each town or at least in each of its 12 provinces/comarcas. I am not as familiar with Costa Rica's auratus diversity but suspect the high diversity in panama is due to its varied topography and changing landscape due to sea level rise and fall over the time auratus has been a species.
Auratus also ranges into Columbia as well, the extent to which it varies in Columbia I do not know and I am not sure if it is even distinct from the Panama population at the border.

The Panama auratus have not been well named or categorized so I think there is some confusion as to what are genuine forms. Hopefully that will be worked out soon.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

http://www.tropical-experience.nl/index ... &Itemid=49
few dif locals there with pics hope that helps a bit 
craig


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## pet-teez (Oct 3, 2007)

Ok, I have a question than... if mine is a Panamanian and there are quite a few variants in just the Panamanians would I be able to put this lil guy in with others at some point or would it be too hard to make sure I have two of the same type of "Pan"?
I was planning on moving this one into my 65g once it was ready but if she can't have "friends" eventually I suppose I would rather set her up in a 15g tall or something and get a small group of a different type of the 65g. I'm sure this sort of question has been asked before but this seems like a good thread for people in the future


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

pet-teez said:


> Ok, I have a question than... if mine is a Panamanian and there are quite a few variants in just the Panamanians would I be able to put this lil guy in with others at some point or would it be too hard to make sure I have two of the same type of "Pan"?


If you can definitively determine what kind of Panama auratus you have, then try and find it a companion. If you plan on breeding the frogs I would recommend getting a group of auratus from a known origin (or "line"). 

If you do not plan on breeding the frogs then this is of less importance, just be sure to follow proper quaranteen practices before putting them together.

If I had the space for a nice 65 gallon terrarium I would prefer having a group of auratus with a known origin/locale/morph (or from a distinct "line"). The tank would be attractive and contribute to the breeding population of the particular morph you select. As Brent mentioned earlier it will allow you to see a lot of the cool behaviors this frogs have, larger tanks allow for a wider range of natural behaviors.

Your lone panama auratus will be fine in a 15 gallon tank.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

pet-teez said:


> Ok, I have a question than... if mine is a Panamanian and there are quite a few variants in just the Panamanians would I be able to put this lil guy in with others at some point or would it be too hard to make sure I have two of the same type of "Pan"?
> I was planning on moving this one into my 65g once it was ready but if she can't have "friends" eventually I suppose I would rather set her up in a 15g tall or something and get a small group of a different type of the 65g. I'm sure this sort of question has been asked before but this seems like a good thread for people in the future


It should not be too hard to find the same type of Panamaian. Do you remember the name of who you bought it from? They should be happy to help you find more of the same morph. If not, the farms import auratus out all year and some are bound to come in that are the same morph as yours. Good luck!


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## pet-teez (Oct 3, 2007)

I recently bought "her" from MellowRoo421 who got her about a year and a half ago from a friend of a reptile shop who supposedly bred/breeds them. I'll look into it.

The Auratus I was planning on getting were the Bronze/Green from JungleBox.
I guess I could just set the 65g up and still plan on putting the Bronze/Greens in that and set something different up for my current lil guy.

We'll see, and thanks guys


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