# Southern variabilis



## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

There has been a few different discussions here on DB regarding some southern variabilis that were brought in from Europe by Sean Stewart. I had originally purchased a group of these frogs and have been quite successful breeding them. All of the frogs that left my possession were labeled "Stewart line" and were instructed to be kept separate from the UE until more was known about them. I contacted Sean, and he tells me that they were purchased from a distributor of UE's in the Netherlands. I have no reason to doubt Sean, but I have sent emails to both the European contact as well as to Mark Pepper to try and get some clarity. I also hope to get a friend over soon with a nice macro set up for some photos with proper coloration so they can be fairly compared. I will post again when I find out more from any of the other parties who may have actual first hand knowledge. 

Thank you. 

Brian


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the info, Brian. Hopefully, this clears the issue up for some folk.

Take care, Richard.


----------



## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Well, the verdict is in. After talking with all parties involved, it appears these frogs were misrepresented by a European dealer to Sean and are in fact not "southern" variabilis. Mark Pepper was kind enough to view the photos for me and determined that in his opinion, which is probably the only one that really matters, they were not southern's. His export papers also do not match up with the claims of the European dealer which makes it pretty much impossible that they are what they were sold as. After speaking with Sean, I believe he never intentionally mislabeled his frogs. He has offered me proof by supplying copies of invoices if necessary but I feel that is not necessary at this time. I contacted his European supplier and they told me that they did in fact sell offspring of Understory's "southern variabilis" line to Sean which I know is impossible. Fact of the matter is that these are variabilis, not southerns. If anyone knows of any other morph besides the 2 I would like to know. I am really bummed, and my eyes have been opened to the shinannagins of the frog trade. Feel free to contact me if you happen to have any of these frogs or would like to know more about my conversations with the 3 parties involved.

Here are pics of the frogs that were in question. Beautiful frogs either way you look at it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Very interesting. I'd agree they are not southerns andI'd be curious to know on what basis Mark didn't think they were southerns. They clearly don't look like the southerns on the UE website, and dont look like the highland variabilis either. They seem to have the larger spots typical of southern variabilis but the lighter blue legs of highlands. What did Mark think they were? Could they be a hybrid? I also hope Sean won't be dealing with that dealer anymore. If they're misrepresenting what frogs they are selling him and then those frogs are sold here, that could turn out to be a huge mess.


----------



## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I am not sure what the range of each frog (southern and highland) are, but is it possible that these frogs meet at an area where they might share each other's physical traits?


----------



## pgravis (Dec 29, 2010)

I thought I read that there was an "old" line of variabilis. Maybe Tor Linbo? I remember reading it while doing research when I bought my southern's. If I can find out where I will post it. 
...Just finished some research. ranitomeya.com lists an old line from 1990's imports from Tor Linbo. Maybe that's what they are? The spots on his pic look bigger, but it also looks like a froglet in the pic as well.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

SnakePaparazzi said:


> I am not sure what the range of each frog (southern and highland) are, but is it possible that these frogs meet at an area where they might share each other's physical traits?


Even if that is possible, the Euro exporter apparently told Sean these were UE Southern Variabilis.

Also, Mellow, did you get these frogs directly from Sean?


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Doug, they may not look like Highlands to you but they sure look like Highlands to me. There is a lot of variation within both races, even within lines in captivity.


----------



## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Sean has assured me he will be contacting the supplier in Europe. He is as frustrated with this ordeal as I am from what I gathered from our email conversation. As far as hybrid goes, that also would not be possible since the southern morph was not sent to Europe until roughly 9 months after the frogs in my possession were purchased. The smaller spots and the high blues in the legs/bellies is what led me to believe that they were not the typical highlands, but the variability in frogs and my lack of experience with this particular species led to an obvious misjudgement on my part. Hopefully someone will chime in regarding possible data. I am unaware of any other morphs than the highland and the southerns, and if they are not southerns than I would assume highland but that may be a huge mistake and I would like to get some more info prior to making any other statements regarding these frogs.


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Brian, what we call "Highlands" is really the nominate form of the species. There are variations in color but they share a common theme to the legs, belly, and dorsal coloration. Southerns are distinctly different. They even have a slightly different call, though the only difference the human ear can discern is that Southerns are quieter.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

johnc said:


> Doug, they may not look like Highlands to you but they sure look like Highlands to me. There is a lot of variation within both races, even within lines in captivity.


Yeah, on second thought, I'm in agreement with this. Didn't initially consider how much variability there is in the highland morph but revisited some sites and they seem to run the gamut.


----------



## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

John, looking at the pictures would you assume that what I am in possession of is the nominate morph? Are there any other morphs/locales/lines that are commonly kept separate in the hobby other than the nominate and the southerns?



johnc said:


> Brian, what we call "Highlands" is really the nominate form of the species. There are variations in color but they share a common theme to the legs, belly, and dorsal coloration. Southerns are distinctly different. They even have a slightly different call, though the only difference the human ear can discern is that Southerns are quieter.


----------



## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Yes, I got these directly from Sean. Also, the European party also told me that they told Sean these were southerns.



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Even if that is possible, the Euro exporter apparently told Sean these were UE Southern Variabilis.
> 
> Also, Mellow, did you get these frogs directly from Sean?


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

They are definitely nominate form. The only other races described are the Southerns and the ones that were formerly lumped in with ventrimaculata.


----------



## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

pgravis said:


> I thought I read that there was an "old" line of variabilis. Maybe Tor Linbo? I remember reading it while doing research when I bought my southern's. If I can find out where I will post it.
> ...Just finished some research. ranitomeya.com lists an old line from 1990's imports from Tor Linbo. Maybe that's what they are? The spots on his pic look bigger, but it also looks like a froglet in the pic as well.


Looking at the photos provided, they do look alot like the Tor line Variabilis I have...


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

What the Dendrobates.org folks consider the nominate form has a huge geographic range, so variations on a theme are to be expected. Given that the majority (all?) of the _Ranitomeya_ we see in the hobby from smuggled sources were collected from the same region in Peru, I highly doubt Tor's import of smuggled Euro frogs is really a different morph to the nominate. Out of principle though, I still wouldn't cross them.


----------



## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

johnc said:


> What the Dendrobates.org folks consider the nominate form has a huge geographic range, so variations on a theme are to be expected. Given that the majority (all?) of the _Ranitomeya_ we see in the hobby from smuggled sources were collected from the same region in Peru, I highly doubt Tor's import of smuggled Euro frogs is really a different morph to the nominate. Out of principle though, I still wouldn't cross them.


I'm with you there. I do have a hunch that nominate and the old Tor line are the same morph, but who knows for sure...I wish there was something that confirmed this, but until then...can't cross.


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm with John on this, definitely look like young highlands.

Since these have no data, and came from EU just as Tor's did, I would say those 2 lines can be crossed cause they are probably the same, and look the same. So long as they are kept separate from the UE and INIBICO known locality Highlands.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Just bumping this as I think it is important to make this clear. There is NO Stewart line of Southern Variabilis. The only Southern Variabilis come from Understory Enterprises. Anything you may see being traded or sold as Stewart line Southern Variabilis, is actually Highland Variabilis from a European import.


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes Doug is correct - its important to keep this in people's minds.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Many of the breeders across the pond are having the same issue's with PFI on Fantasticus, mixing UE CV Fants along with old line Copperheads, making representations (or should I say misrepresentations) that would be impossible timeline wise. UE has stopped distributing frogs through PFI in Europe because of these issues.
And based on the timing of some species showing up at PFI it was fairly obvious that many were not legal specimans as they had Benedicta (both morphs), Vanzo's and several others before UE even sent them there.
Hopefully anyone buying these Southerns has not had a chance to pair them with real Southerns from UE.


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> And based on the timing of some species showing up at PFI it was fairly obvious that many were not legal specimans as they had Benedicta (both morphs), Vanzo's and several others before UE even sent them there.


It's amazing how many times we can point this out and people still buy EU import Ranitomeya. Not to mention the Varadero fantastica that may come in now...


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

What really bothers (not my first choice of wording) me is when the import from Europe and claim it is Understory Enterprises. Mark works hard to bring us these fully legal offerings and people are taking these Euro frogs and undercutting Mark's work.
About 6 months or so ago, I saw some Vanzolini being offered up for sale. The seller claimed that they were Understory line, acquired from a European import. Only one group of Understory Vanzolini were ever brought into the US. Unfortunately, they were all one sex. I'm thinking all male but I'm not positive. When I saw them offered, I spoke with the US owner of these Understory Vanzolini. He spoke with Mark directly and Mark Pepper confirmed that they could not possibly be Understory Vanzolini. They were just another Euro import undercutting Mark's hard work. Due to feedback policies I guess I can't really say who imported these and offered them. Let's just say the same guy has done it before and we'll see if this gets edited.
I'll PM my contact who owns the US Understory Vanzolini and see if he cares to respond and confirm but I don't want to just throw his name out there.


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> What really bothers (not my first choice of wording) me is when the import from Europe and claim it is Understory Enterprises. Mark works hard to bring us these fully legal offerings and people are taking these Euro frogs and undercutting Mark's work.
> About 6 months or so ago, I saw some Vanzolini being offered up for sale. The seller claimed that they were Understory line, acquired from a European import. Only one group of Understory Vanzolini were ever brought into the US. Unfortunately, they were all one sex. I'm thinking all male but I'm not positive. When I saw them offered, I spoke with the US owner of these Understory Vanzolini. He spoke with Mark directly and Mark Pepper confirmed that they could not possibly be Understory Vanzolini. They were just another Euro import undercutting Mark's hard work. Due to feedback policies I guess I can't really say who imported these and offered them. Let's just say the same guy has done it before and we'll see if this gets edited.
> I'll PM my contact who owns the US Understory Vanzolini and see if he cares to respond and confirm but I don't want to just throw his name out there.


Ya I've had the same discussions with Mark before. It is really unfortunate that a couple people out there constantly bring in the Euro imports that undermine his business and work. On another note, anyone ever see Euro Varadero imitators anymore? Where did they all go? I think it's safe to say, people are misrepresenting them and selling their offspring as UE frogs, which also undermines their work.

I think this person has come out before and said they had the UE vanzos but I could be wrong. Hopefully they chyme in.

Hopefully Mark is able to release certain other Ranitomeya before they are brought in from Europe. I feel like it's more a race than a battle of cost to see which bloodline would be more prevalent in our hobby. People just have to have the new thing.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Let me make sure I was clear. The gentleman I'm talking about that has the multiple male? Understory Vanzo's, got them legitimately and directly from Understory/Mark Pepper.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, and by the way, in a personal email communication with Elaine from Understory Enterprises, she told me that they are now working with a new breeding group of Vanzolini! Hopefully sometime soon, we will be able to get some legit Understory Vanzolini. This was back on May 2nd. She says that they are NOT a new morph. She says they look just like all the other Vanzolini in the hobby.
But of course we all know that the genetics will be "fresher", so to speak, and more importantly, 100% legit.


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I've posted this on the board before so this is really nothing new. According to Mark I'm still the only fortunate one here in the states to have his line of vanzos. In fact I picked them up directly from Mark himself when he came down here to the states to Aaron's Frog Farm for one of his shipments to hobbyists here in the states. I originally purchased 3, lost 1 of the 3, and the remaining 2 are gorgeous females. 

I can't tell you how many times I've emailed/bugged  Elaine about trying to get a male or two. Hopefully sometime in the near future they'll have some more available to get these gorgeous frogs established here in the states.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oops, I guess I had the sex wrong. Probably a good thing I'm not a frog, huh? 
Thanks Gary.


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

AND........I have specifically asked Mark about breeding my 2 females to the vanzos coming in from overseas. His answer was a definite "no".


----------



## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

So, none of the vanzolini offspring that I see consistently on the marketplace for sale are real UE line. Nobody ended up with a pair that produced? If they are real, then they would have to be adult original imports? So all but the original imported frogs are from probable illegal stock? (Just making 100% sure I understood this correctly) Damn... that's really making me do a double and triple take on my ideas of who is producing frogs that are in line with my personal moral obligations... Is it mostly the ranitomeya that are the biggest concern? How about things like the anthonyi, phylobates and the tincs? PM me if you feel your response may be in violation of the feedback policy. 

Thank you,





Pumilo said:


> What really bothers (not my first choice of wording) me is when the import from Europe and claim it is Understory Enterprises. Mark works hard to bring us these fully legal offerings and people are taking these Euro frogs and undercutting Mark's work.
> About 6 months or so ago, I saw some Vanzolini being offered up for sale. The seller claimed that they were Understory line, acquired from a European import. Only one group of Understory Vanzolini were ever brought into the US. Unfortunately, they were all one sex. I'm thinking all male but I'm not positive. When I saw them offered, I spoke with the US owner of these Understory Vanzolini. He spoke with Mark directly and Mark Pepper confirmed that they could not possibly be Understory Vanzolini. They were just another Euro import undercutting Mark's hard work. Due to feedback policies I guess I can't really say who imported these and offered them. Let's just say the same guy has done it before and we'll see if this gets edited.
> I'll PM my contact who owns the US Understory Vanzolini and see if he cares to respond and confirm but I don't want to just throw his name out there.


----------



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Its a shame, i recall manuel mentioning that they would never bring mysteriousis in because all it would do is wash the illegal frogs already around.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> So, none of the vanzolini offspring that I see consistently on the marketplace for sale are real UE line. Nobody ended up with a pair that produced? If they are real, then they would have to be adult original imports? So all but the original imported frogs are from probable illegal stock? (Just making 100% sure I understood this correctly) Damn... that's really making me do a double and triple take on my ideas of who is producing frogs that are in line with my personal moral obligations... Is it mostly the ranitomeya that are the biggest concern? How about things like the anthonyi, phylobates and the tincs? PM me if you feel your response may be in violation of the feedback policy.
> 
> Thank you,


First off, I have searched and searched for that ad and I cannot find it by the person I thought it was made by. So I would like to retract this statement that I made. 
_"I guess I can't really say who imported these and offered them. Let's just say the same guy has done it before and we'll see if this gets edited."_
I now believe that the ad I saw here on dendroboard, was made by a hobbiest. This un-named hobbiest claimed that they were Understory lineage, bred here in the US. I can't find it, but I know for a fact that it was up, because that is when I spoke to Gary about it and Gary spoke to Mark about it.
From the research I have done, and the people I have spoken to, there are currently NO Understory Enterprises Vanzolini in the United States, other than the 2 females owned by Gary.

As I understand it, many of the "old school" lines of frogs in the country have a "questionable origin". What's been done in the past cannot be changed. All we can do is try to move in the right direction now. It would truly be a pity to weed out or cull all the old lines of questionable origin. They are here now, so I say let's work with them and enjoy them. However, we should be advancing from the way things may have been done in the past. We should be striving to support endeavors like Understory Enterprises. If, for instance, we know that Mark is working hard to bring us a legal importation of Varadero Fantastica (which he is working on), it would truly be a pity and a step back, to purchase them from a European shipment. The shipment to USA from Europe may be legal, but the original import into Europe was not. Now I have heard that these Euro Varadero Fantastica will be here soon. I choose to pass on them. I will wait for Mark Pepper to offer them to me.

I got back into frogging after a several year break, about 2 years ago. Vanzolini and Varadero were my first purchases. The Varadero were Understory. Obviously, the Vanzolini were not. I didn't even know about Understory at the time. I have come a long way and learned a lot from all my new friends here on DB in the past 2 years. I had no idea of the standing on Vanzolini when I got them. Will I cull them and kill them now? No. But I will try to be the first to purchase Mark's line when they do become available. I will try to move forward in the hobby without supporting the work of smugglers.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

stemcellular said:


> Its a shame, i recall manuel mentioning that they would never bring mysteriousis in because all it would do is wash the illegal frogs already around.


I know what you mean, Ray. I spoke to someone just last week who claims to know somebody with many tanks full of Mysteriousis. He said that the guy is "stockpiling" hoping for the day there is a legal importation so that he can release his. He did NOT disclose the name of the person or even the state he is in. Just goes to show that you are spot on, though.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> So, none of the vanzolini offspring that I see consistently on the marketplace for sale are real UE line. Nobody ended up with a pair that produced? If they are real, then they would have to be adult original imports? So all but the original imported frogs are from probable illegal stock? (Just making 100% sure I understood this correctly) Damn... that's really making me do a double and triple take on my ideas of who is producing frogs that are in line with my personal moral obligations... Is it mostly the ranitomeya that are the biggest concern? How about things like the anthonyi, phylobates and the tincs? PM me if you feel your response may be in violation of the feedback policy.
> 
> Thank you,


Sadly yes all of the Vanzo's you see out there are from similar sources, some of which claimed they were Divossen animals (confiscation of smuggled frogs and bred in Europe making them theoretically legal) but that happened so long ago and really no Vanzo's surfaced in any numbers. Then smugglers hit by the 1000's, shortly thereafter legal Divossen animals poured into the US and elsewhere by the 100's. Anybody believing these were legal animals is an idiot, that being said wanting these animals and then breeding them because they were here many did...including myself. Most but not all thumbs offered over the last 5 - 7 years if not brought in by UE were likely from smuggled origins, as the market and prices for these new species went through the roof they suddenly were made available...as now are Sylvaticus, Granny's and odd Pumilio morphs.
Many Tincs have been exported legally as were Anthony or at the time Tricolor, Phylobates however have similar backgrounds to the thumbs coming from Europe, none were really exported legally from Colombia (yes a small number) but most were bred in Europe and exported here, these animals however were never brought out by the 1000's. Galacs were another species heavily smuggled out of Brazil, washed through Surinam most were smuggled without papers.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Some frogs are strictly not legal (mysties, casteoniticus ... ) - some I just don't feel good about owning (histo/sylvaticus with dubious papers / vanzolini).

I look at the frogs in my frog room - and I don't want any of them associated with smuggling. I prefer to feel good about my frogs, not wonder where they came from.

s


----------

