# Hybrids poll



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Should hybrids be produced? If yes, when and why. This may show us why our posts go round and round.


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## MattySF (May 25, 2005)

Hybrids suck! 

Unless their fuel efficient :wink:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some of the problem with hybrids are 
1) they take away space that can be used to keep the normal morphs sustainable in captivity
2) they can be bred into normal populations which impacts the long-term genetic diversity of normal populations
3) if they appear similar to a "standard" morph they can be sold as that morph (or aquired by someone who then posts on here what morph does this look like and gets a visual id and then breeds the hybrid into the population)


Ed


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## DendroKeeper (Feb 9, 2008)

Just look at the ball pythons and leopard geckos. People don't want the normal animals anymore. It's all about albinos, ghosts, melanistic, leucistic, enigma, snow, patternless, ect. ect. ect. Back when I was breeding ball pythons, every buyer wanted to know what type of hets I had. I feel that if we start hybrid darts, it will turn into people just wanting color morphs, and not wanting the genuine animals we strive to produce.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

This is the pet trade and not the save our animals campaign.

I for one like ball pythons and leopard gecko morphs and fantasy horned frogs much more than I like the regulars. I want the colour morphs and not the regular species, and Im not the only one.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I for one like ball pythons and leopard gecko morphs and fantasy horned frogs much more than I like the regulars. I want the colour morphs and not the regular species, and Im not the only one.


Difference being we are not dealing with a single species, as with leopard geckos and ball pythons, just manipulating a single genome. We are talking about mixing genetic information from different species that likely never 'mix' in the wild.

Jer, something else you might want to consider when thinking about these 'designer herps' is that the genetics can gets so screwed up, importation of WC animals might be necessary to introduce wild-type genetics back into the population. I know Brent has mentioned this with corn snakes, for example.


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## Therek (Dec 24, 2007)

Jer said:


> not the save our animals campaign.


Jer,
in this you could not be more wrong.

Have you seen the efforts of TWI/ASN? 
http://www.treewalkers.org/projects/ASN/

It blows me away the efforts this group does for your "pet trade". I understand, you pay your money so you can do what you want but please don't try and undermine the hard work of others.

Pete


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## Dangerously (Dec 19, 2007)

What would be the point? "I want a frog with a red left leg, blue right leg, yellow head, and purple-and-orange-spotted body".. something like that? These animals are already colorful enough, and come with a rich, localized history and native environment. Hybridize and you lose that.

My feeling is that in general this group of hobbyists are purists. Bastardize a line and watch how fast its shunned.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

See this: general-discussion/topic2375.html

and this: general-discussion/topic31840.html?hilit=hybrids

and this: breeding-eggs-tadpoles/topic37322.html?hilit=hybrids

Being aware of past discussions is also a good way to prevent our posts from going round and round.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I think that most people who want to hybridize don't realize that these frogs come in just about any color and pattern you can think of. Not to mention morphs of a particular species prefer like-colored animals, and if people start hybridizing, there will be issues with animals not knowing what to breed with.

It's just a silly notion. Why screw up what nature got right?


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Even if people try and dismiss the importance of keeping the gene pools untainted, or the conservation attempts, or the fact that 1/3 of amphibians are in danger and in drastic decline. After all "they are my frogs" argument, and curiosity, I fear that someone with good intent will end up unknowingly buy a hybrid at a show or online, than get into the hobby where if not recognized as a hybrid will than breed and sell with a non-hybrid and thus hurting the efforts that so many people are working for.

I find it slim that if someone is to create hybrids, and claims that they will never release them into the hobby, they are able to do so. Everyone here knows how much time/space/money is involved in keeping our collections. In many cases people sell their offspring to 1: offset some of cost of keeping them, 2: maintain the space they have available for their pets and not get over-run with hundreds of vivs, 3: because that is how the hobby grows. 

With the years and years of possible commitment to the pets, are people going to be able to support and sustain generations of hybrids in their own facilities? I would imagine that they will end up being sold off, and what was first a selfish "I want to see what happens" eventually hurts a lot of people and frogs in the long run.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

Jer said:


> and Im not the only one.


Well out of close to 50 votes, it seems there are only 2 others who agree with you....

rob


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

evolvstll said:


> Should hybrids be produced? If yes, when and why.


I think this question should be modified or made more specific:

"Should hybrids be produced by hobbyists? If yes, when and why."
To this question I vote "NO" (the reasons for which have been outlines very well in this thread and other threads). With the advent of TWI and Frog tracks the odds of non-labeled hybrids being incorporated into existing representative captive populations of frogs is greatly reduced (but still not impossible).

on the other side of the issue:
"Should hybrids be produced for scientific gains that may benefit humans, frogs, or other organisms? If yes, when and why"

All of our food crops represent hybrids across lines, populations, and even species. "lines" of laboratory animals (flies/mice/rats/etc) are often produced for better scientific research. 

A hypothetical example that is also not an inconceivable possibility: 
A frog is found to produce and amazing that will send a particularly common cancer into complete remission. Unfortunately there is no known way to synthesize this drug, the only way to get it is to extract it from the frogs. The frogs are raised in captivity in large numbers but still the drug is only produced in a small amount for frog, thousands of frogs are produced just to get enough drug to save one person. Some frog researchers find another species that produces a similar chemical that has no effect on cancer but is produced by this other species at levels 10000 times that of the one that produces the active drug. In this case hybridization and selective breeding, couple with other genetic tools could be used to breed frogs that produce as much of the drug as possible per frog. In the long run this may not be the ideal way to produce the drug but will save thousands of lives while alternative production means are researched.

Read up on the production and history of Taxol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paclitaxel


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

rjmarchisi said:


> Jer said:
> 
> 
> > and Im not the only one.
> ...


beat em to saying the exact same thing, except at this time it's over 50 with only 2 other sympathizers... pretty resounding statement. I don't know if Jer is a troll or not, but by the posts I have seen by him or her it sounds like another PDFanatic, Bocomo, etc...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

flyangler18 said:


> Jer, something else you might want to consider when thinking about these 'designer herps' is that the genetics can gets so screwed up, importation of WC animals might be necessary to introduce wild-type genetics back into the population. I know Brent has mentioned this with corn snakes, for example.


Yep, I've mentioned this several times. When albino corn snakes hit the scene, it only took a few years before it was pretty much impossible to find plain old wild type corn snakes that weren't carrying some anomylous genetic trait. So people continued to capture corn snakes from the wild to satisfy their craving for the good old fashioned wild type snake that evolution created. Same goes for California kingsnakes. But we don't have to just look at herps. When was the last time you saw a normal golden hamster, or a wild type guinea pig? How about a zebra finch? The point is that these hybrids and designer bred animals tend to dominate the captive populations and swamp out the original wild type gene pools. That leaves no other option than to snatch more animals from the wild to satisfy the demand for the evolutionary original.

And I would not declare ASN as the savior of our problems just yet. Just because we have a system to keep the genetics of captive populations managed does not mean our populations are "saved". We only have a tiny fraction of the captive populations enrolled in the program so there needs to be much more participation from the hobby, and much more work to do before we can declare it a success.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Yes the question is directed at the hobby, thanks for clarifying. However just because they may be used in a lab or for research does not ensure they would not make their way to the hobby somehow, just a thought.

The poll is for us in the hobby - thanks - looks like a landslide though


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## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree with Brent and can back this with many years expierence with Lady Gouldian finches. Although there is habitat destuction and a mite that has caused great damage to their numbers in the wild, yet try to find a pure bred red breasted male or other natural (yellow and black breasted) form from ANY breeder these days is impossible. They are all split to some hybrid, so it seems. 
I do understand though that "new" and "different" speaks volumes. Look how we all clammor to be the first to get the "new" Peruvian imports, Perhaps we should all be figuring out a way, with this in mind, to bring to the USA all the varieties of frog that are not available to us now or that have fallen out of favor.This especially before habitat destruction and disease take their toll. Perhaps we should follow what seems to be a "zoo" mentaility, conservation vs. exploitation.
Kudos to those individuals who support our limited means of habitat support and those doing research and conservation. 
B.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

There will always be two seperate camps as far as hybrids go. And the discussion will never be won.

I for one, perfer to keep things the way God made them. I wish I could keep some of the frogs I passed up in the mid nineties due to price. They are no longer available in the market. For this reason, I would say I am a purist in regards to PDFs.

Some, breed animals solely for the money and don't care of conservation efforts or anything else.

PDFs as well as all reptiles have came way down in the past 15 years due to increased availablity thru captive breeding. As the supply came in line with the demand, prices fell fast.

So, in order to make money , some will try to make hybrids that the other breeders don't have and charge insane prices for them. But in a couple years, others will be breeding them as well, and again the price will drop, so on to something else.


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## Ira (Jan 17, 2007)

As far as i am concerned, the only motivation driving people to want to hybridize darts is pure, unmitigated greed. The only reason to produce a new hybride or moprh of any animal is so that you can take that animal to market and make a killing on it. I think most of the people that have spoken in adovocacy of hybridizing on this board see darts as an unexploited resource and have visions of blizzard lizards dancing in their head.

Just my two cents.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

rjmarchisi said:


> Jer said:
> 
> 
> > and Im not the only one.
> ...


Actually out of 95 votes about 6 others agree with me.

And if anyone actually takes this poll as an accurate estimate of the actual numbers in society, feel free to dispense yourself a slap from the slap self dispenser. The great majority of the members on this forum are TWI/ASN advocates and so the numbers obtained from the poll should be far from surprising. This poll is like going into a bar and then taking a poll to see how many people prefer alcoholic beverages over non-alcoholic beverages, again the results should not be surprising.


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## barbar0 (Dec 3, 2007)

Hm... I don't think your analogy works, Jer.
There is no point in asking your neighbour if he thinks hybrdizing is a good thing, if he doesn't have a clue what that even means, or that there are different morphs of PDFs. On this board you find a big part of the PDF-keeper community, so the poll is represetative in my opinion.
Its more like you go into a bar and ask people which of two beers they prefer - theres no point in asking that question a water drinker.  

........................
barbara


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## frog_newbie (Sep 5, 2007)

Actually Jer's example makes lots of sense but yours doesn't. Instead of the neighbor example how about you change the venue to a reptile expo. I am sure, as Jer mentioned, the results would not be as skewed towards non-hybrids. The neighbor example shows a denial of the issue which is the type of thing that could lead to potential problems in the future, if you want to stop things like this happening you have to be willing to understand what others want as well. Now that I have said that I should state I am not for hybrids.

Bruce


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

barbar0 said:


> Hm... I don't think your analogy works, Jer.
> There is no point in asking your neighbour if he thinks hybrdizing is a good thing, if he doesn't have a clue what that even means, or that there are different morphs of PDFs. On this board you find a big part of the PDF-keeper community, so the poll is represetative in my opinion.
> Its more like you go into a bar and ask people which of two beers they prefer - theres no point in asking that question a water drinker.
> 
> ...


You are very wrong. My analogy does fit miraculously well. I bet the 92%(or damn close to it) of people who voted against hybrids are TWI/ASN advocates, while the 7% who do believe in hybrids are not. Funny how the poll doesn't add up to 100%.

While I am not a TWI/ASN member I do believe in what they stand for, which is something that alot of people on the forums are clearly not comprehending, and then they go and call me a troll, out of their own ignorance. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are probably thousands of TWI/ASN members out there which are securing "true" breeding lines and that is terrific, but there is also room out there for hybrids. It seems the number one big worry about hybrids is that they will be backcrossed back into the original lines, which doesn't make much sense to me unless these people are just completely lazy. Someone who is breeding for purity and is keeping such impressive records as those from TWI/ASN do, should have very little worry about bringing a hybrid into their breeding programs if they are in fact receiving frogs from such carefully recorded bloodlines. I find it hard to believe that someone working so damn hard to establish these true bloodlines would cut corners and just adopt any random frog into their program without having carefully assessed the frogs origin and simply assume it is whatever they are looking for. If so, this is not a hybrid problem, rather a problem of people being lazy. The hybrid issue is far overrated and there is just too much unnecessary hype regarding hybrids.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ya, there`s thousands of us out here trying to save frogs all signed up w/ twi/asn. I`m sure there isn`t 1000 people in the U.S. who have ever bred frogs let alone signed up for twi/asn.


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## DendroKeeper (Feb 9, 2008)

Another problem with creating hybrids is the issue with tad feeding. Say you breed a D. pumilio to a D. aruatus. As we know, the pumilio is an obligate egg feeder, while the auratus does not feed eggs. 
Will the tads be obligate egg feeders? They may have a chance if the mother is a pumilio, but the auatus if male probably wont call for the female to deposit eggs. 
If you are talking about breeding a single species to its locality morphs, I suppose you won't have this problem, but its something to think about.


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

If your not happy with all the colors available now, you never will be.

Besides the obvious reasons not to hybridize, theres also the "whats the point" arguement. If you want a certain color frog, go buy it. If its not out there, your probably not looking hard enough, or your after something absurd that wont likely emerge from hybrids anyway.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

I am not a TWI/ASN member I would like to become one in the future. Which bring me to the comment that Jer made about memebrs being so selective of frogs that they have and not just buying any ole frog. 
I buy my frogs where I can get them, when I decide I want a new frog and when I can afford them, if I happen to unknowkingly buy from a person like yourself who is all about the hybrids. Say you end up with a hybrid that looks like a cobalt. And you sold that hybrid to a person who six months down the line no longer has time for it and I buy that so called cobalt. Then I join the TWI/ASN. I am now intorducing mixed genes into the pool unknowlingly. 
Did I explain that good enough. It made sense as I was thinking it but not so much as I typed it. 
I think it is almosty impossible for some one to say that they are going to keep all the frogs that a hybrid pair produces. That is a lot of frogs to handle and I think eventually they would end up in the wrong hand labeled wrong.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I actually am not surprised by the number of pro hybridizers in the poll. I would fully expect at least ten percent of any interest group polled to fully not understand , not care, and not take the time to do a few searches by respected (and that is the key) members of any community. There has to be a bottom end of any group.
But, if there are froggers who want to learn about the hobby and subjects like hybrids and other hot topics, there are thousands of posts right here ( let alone other 'forums') . If the intention is to troll around and add fuel to giant tire fires that will never go out on their own, then some will find this an unlimited source of entertainment , as opposed to an unlimited source of good information. 


Rich


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

Jer said:


> Actually out of 95 votes about 6 others agree with me.


Well I am unable to edit my post everytime someone votes, but the percentage is almost the same. It is clear that the community that participates on Dendroboard clearly is in support of producing no hybrids for whatever reason they wish. 

Evolvstll posted this poll because he was curious of the opinions of the people that post on this board ( he didnt ask us to stand out on a corner and poll the general population ) and lastly everyone should know the famous quote about "agruing on the internet is like......"

google it if you dont know.

rob


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I should probably make a few comments here. First, TWI currently has about 160 members and, of those, somewhere around 35 members are ASN stewards. Of those 35 stewards, we have roughly 300 specimens and 25 species accessioned in the ISIS database. While these numbers reflect the potential for ASN to compete with even the largest zoos in terms of number of animals managed, we are a very long way from having secure and managed populations. Simply supporting the idea behind ASN is not going to be enough, we actually have to pull together and do it.

In regard to polluting ASN lines down the road, I think there is something people should be aware of. ASN lines cannot remain open ended for perpetual addition of new individuals to those lines. The only way this can work is for ASN to identify as many animals that meet the criteria for founders of a "pure" (I don't really like that term) population and establish those populations. Only the founders and their offspring will be considered part of the population unless clear documentation can be provided that an animal meets the criteria for inclusion. This means that somewhere down the line there will be animals with the same genetic background as established ASN populations but that lack sufficient documentation to be included. I think it is important for people to understand that.

Finally, with regard to this being a biased poll. I strongly disagree. I guarantee that if you did this poll on Frognet, Dendroworld, or any of the German sites, you would get similar results. In fact, the new Lotters book contains a classic line that reads something like, "the creation of bastards should never be the aim of the hobbyist". Not everyone who keeps PDF is part of the hobby. I have a collection of orchids on my windowsill but I am not part of the orchid "hobby". The PDF "hobby" is actually rather infamous for our stance against designer breeding which I am very proud to say makes us an enigma among herp hobbies. As a result, conversations among hobbyists at events centers much more around natural history and conservation and very rarely around money and genetic manipulation. Sure, there are differences of opinion even among hobbyists, but I think you will find that the vast majority of people active in the hobby share very similar opinions about hybrids.


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## swigen (Aug 24, 2007)

I dont understand why someone in this hobby would ever want to create hybrids. I see it as a complete lack of respect for their natural history. The colors and behaviors demonstrated by each species have been evolving for 1000's of years and theres no reason to change what nature has created. I love how the PDF community (or atleast 90+ % of it) has taken the higher road and kept these wonderful creatures in parallel to their wild counterparts. As a relatively new member to this community, I would just like to thank all you "veterans" who have fought hard to create such a unique corner of the herp hobby.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

bbrock said:


> Finally, with regard to this being a biased poll. I strongly disagree. I guarantee that if you did this poll on Frognet, Dendroworld, or any of the German sites, you would get similar results.


Brent, while I wholeheartedly agree with all your other points, I must take issue with you on this one. _Volunteer sampling _is statistically useless. Now, had this been a _simple random sample _of the dendroboard population (or any of the other forums/organizations), then I could agree.

Donn


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

edwardsatc said:


> Brent, while I wholeheartedly agree with all your other points, I must take issue with you on this one. _Volunteer sampling _is statistically useless. Now, had this been a _simple random sample _of the dendroboard population (or any of the other forums/organizations), then I could agree.
> 
> Donn


That's a very good point about the inherent bias in volunteer survey responses in that the responses are typically weighted toward those who are most passionate about the subject and are thus most likely to respond. At a minimum, we have no way of measuring the bias in this poll, but I don't think that is the same as saying that the poll is biased. If the pro hybrid people tend to be just as passionate about the subject as the anti-hybrid group, then the results could still be representative. I certainly haven't seen anything in my 13 years in the hobby to indicate that anything more than a tiny minority of those invovled are really in favor of designer breeding. 

Perhaps those folks are just operating in different circles which, IMO, is as it should be. I certainly don't begrudge people having different opinions about hybrids. But I do resent hostile attitudes towards those of us who want to defend our segment of the hobby against going the route of other breeding related hobbies. Just take a look at the orchid folks who raped the landscape for new and rare species, then hybridized them to extinction, which generated another flurry of collecting from the wild to reclaim what was lost.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

One cannot "totally stand behind" what he ASN/TWI is doing and then condone hybrids. You are making our efforts harder no matter how you look at it. Every adult captive animal's reproductive abilities you waste frivolously on hybrids is one less reproductive adult for the cause. What's worse, should the ASN offer up excess offspring to help fund/promote their efforts with new hobbiests your genetic rainbow mutants are sure to catch the eye of the uneducated/uninformed as easily as the natural forms. Thus, your greed and curiosity directly undermine our efforts again.

Why not spend your time trying to breed the healthiest most beautiful frogs you have to replace themselves on this planet (as is their natural imperative)? Why not invest your time in trying to better the husbandry practices of the hobby through innovation in care, feeding, or housing? These aims are no less intricate or rewarding and far more useful. Help us progress not devolve into another commercial slaughterhouse where an animal is worth nothing more than the price it can fetch on the market. 

If all else fails, take your 6 other compatriots and form your own community where you do as you please with your "purchases". If the results of this poll show nothing else: your constant irksome pesterings about this topic are unwelcome and quite frankly detracting from the majority of the hobbiests' enjoyment of this forum.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

DendroKeeper said:


> Another problem with creating hybrids is the issue with tad feeding. Say you breed a D. pumilio to a D. aruatus. As we know, the pumilio is an obligate egg feeder, while the auratus does not feed eggs.
> Will the tads be obligate egg feeders? They may have a chance if the mother is a pumilio, but the auatus if male probably wont call for the female to deposit eggs.
> If you are talking about breeding a single species to its locality morphs, I suppose you won't have this problem, but its something to think about.


Only one way to find out.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

To answer the question of why?

Pure greed. No other reason, Just good old fashion Greed.

Think of the cereal commercial where the guy can't hear anything people are saying to him, and just keeps eating his cereal.

Some people have no ethics, and only care about the money they can make selling hybrids. 

While we can't prevent certain people from breeding, you cannot prevent the offspring from breeding hybrids.

I don't like the fact stupid people are allowed to breed, but Hilary needs the votes


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

Greed has nothing to do with it. Money has nothing to do with it. You better slap your information provider because they are an idiot. Sheer curiosity is the motivator for me.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

scott r said:


> I don't like the fact stupid people are allowed to breed, but Hilary needs the votes



Haven't laughed that hard in a while lol


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

If anyone remembers my previous statements on this subject then you may know my opinion. 

I personally don't know what all the fuss is about. I'm neither for or against cross-morph breeding. It's truely not a hybrid when most people are referring to crossing morphs of subspecies of Tinc. or auratus or pumilio & not toads and dart frogs or such.

None of the arguments against line breeding and cross breeding have convinced me that it will do harm to the species population, the hobby, the hobbiests, or man kind/ frog kind in general. 

Do you think the japanese argued about this when they first started line breeding their brightly colored carp getting overly heated about the natural populations and the future of carp husbandry and how it would lead to the ultimate destruction of the koi as species? whew...


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> None of the arguments against line breeding and cross breeding have convinced me that it will do harm to the species population, the hobby, the hobbiests, or man kind/ frog kind in general.


If you aren't convinced, that's fine. Just respect the stance that the majority of the hobby has taken against hybridizing or mixing morphs and the creation of 'designer animals'.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Quaz said:


> I personally don't know what all the fuss is about. I'm neither for or against cross-morph breeding. It's truely not a hybrid when most people are referring to crossing morphs of subspecies of Tinc. or auratus or pumilio & not toads and dart frogs or such.
> 
> None of the arguments against line breeding and cross breeding have convinced me that it will do harm to the species population, the hobby, the hobbiests, or man kind/ frog kind in general.


This position ignores the history of this hobby and the maintenance of the genetic diversity of the available frogs. In the last 15 years different morphs and species have come very close to virtual extinction within the captive population. The hobby has not been able to show that it can keep the populations of the frogs currently in the hobby as true species or morphs without the additional pressure of hybrids and the artificial integradation of the different seperate color morphs. If the hobby had shown itself able to sustain the frogs then it would be a different story. For those who are relative new comers to this hobby (and I'm talking about you who have less than 10 years in the hobby), you may not remember this occuring with E. tricolor/anthyoni but if you pay attention you should be able to see it currently happening with some of the D. tinctorius and D. auratus morphs.Given that the current number of people in the hobby have not been able to show the ability to sustain the current species, it is troubling to say the least when people have the idea that hybrids between species or morphs is harmless to the hobby overall. It takes some determination to ignore both the past and the present. 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I do urge folks to not turn this into a contest of morality. Keeping frogs in glass boxes is considered morally questionable to some people to start with. Although some of us hold our opinions about hybrids on ethical grounds, I don't think it is fair to tell someone else that there difference of opinion makes them unethical. Curiosity can be a very powerful motivator and that does not necessarily make a person unethical.

For the record, a cross between morphs IS a hybrid. It is an intra-specific hybrid. Crosses between species are inter-specific hybrids. Let's not turn this into a semantic argument that somehow makes it less of a problem if we just call it something different.

I've said this many times before, but 20 some years ago I was involved in the snake hobby about the time that albinos were becoming the rage. I would attend reptile shows and in a few short years witnessed the conversations between hobbyists shift from natural history about snakes, to talk about how genes could be manipulate and how much money could be made from the results. It ruined the hobby for me. I wanted to interact with people who were knowledgeable and passionate about the snakes in their natural habitat and in captive husbandry. But that was taken away. It was like going to a flower show to find it filled with RV advocates. I think that would be very harmful to the excellent hobby that we have. This isn't hypothetical. I've lived through it and it was very dissapointing.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

jer and quaz,

this planet has enough problems with animals already, such as deforestation, hunting for fun, hunting for the market, potures, the pet trade, so we dont need people like you hybridizing a bunch of really great animals. also, i HATE what people did with ball pythons, corn snakes, leopard geckos, etc., etc. if people didnt like the way the animal was in the first place, they shouldnt have gotten any. i also personally hate what happened with dogs to. ive actually pretty much lost all faith in humanity.




scott r said:


> I don't like the fact stupid people are allowed to breed, but Hilary needs the votes


hahahahahahahaha oh my god! that was the best damn political joke :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

And that is why this conversation involving dart frogs makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Even in the early 90s, we kept dart frogs in the naturalistic vivaria that are used today. We didn't have the internet, all of our information came from an article here and there about the naturalistic vivaria being used in the Netherlands and Germany. Then after a few years, the short lived magazine Vivarium hit the stands.
Shortly after this, the hobby took a turn. Herptology seemed to split into 3 factions. Those that kept an "unusual" pet usually on newspaper in a sterile cage, those focusing on "Living Art" thru gene selection and hybrids, and those that maintained the reptiles in their care in Naturalistic Vivaria that closely resembled the wild surroundings they were raised in.

I keep alot of different Tinc morphs together in a 120 gallon, all males. Two of them are from Brazil. All the rest are from Surinam. Looking at it this way, the possibility of tinc morphs cross breeding in the wild where regions overlap are pretty good.

Alot of the hybrid snakes are mules that cannot reproduce, and suffer from various afflictions of health. This is why I don't agree with it.

Why in the world were the Japanese line breeding brightly colored Koi carp? Do people buy these for something?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

ya alot of people put koi in their ponds. rediculous.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

thedude said:


> ya alot of people put koi in their ponds. rediculous.


It beats having a mosquito infested breeding ground.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Oh, So they breed different colors of Koi to make more money than they would with plain gold ones. I see.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

What do you guys do when someone gets a pumillo import that looks really cool, but they don't have informed and specific geographical information (or at least they don't say so forthright)? I've seen some that are just called "spotted pumillo" or something like that and the temptation would be to buy the thing because its awesome and post a pic and have everyone weigh in on what is probably is. 

I've also seen man creeks and almirantes sold seperately or as the same thing. And I'm also worried about being sold a cayo de aqua that is really a chiriqui river.

Just some thoughts to direct this discussion back to frogs.

Thanks.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Jer said:


> thedude said:
> 
> 
> > ya alot of people put koi in their ponds. rediculous.
> ...


thats not what they were breed for in the first place though. and there are alot of other ways to get rid of mosquitos.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> What do you guys do when someone gets a pumillo import that looks really cool, but they don't have informed and specific geographical information (or at least they don't say so forthright)? I've seen some that are just called "spotted pumillo" or something like that and the temptation would be to buy the thing because its awesome and post a pic and have everyone weigh in on what is probably is.
> 
> I've also seen man creeks and almirantes sold seperately or as the same thing. And I'm also worried about being sold a cayo de aqua that is really a chiriqui river.
> 
> ...


If there is no other information available then you track it by the importation date until other data becomes available (if it does). Areas by which the frogs are imported can shift over time. 
If dealers are misrepresenting the frogs then people should not be purchasing from those dealers and should get the frogs from more responsible dealers. A good example of this was the recent advertising on kingsnake for blue jeans frogs which were not the true blue jeans morph but were a red man creek with blueish legs. 
I believe this is all covered in the ASN explinations. 

Ed


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## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

These are already the most colorful and unique animanls on the planet. There are dozens of color morphs found in the wild; plenty for a hobbyist to choose from. Like the mouth-broodingTropheus Morrii from Lake Tanganika (some of the most prized cichlids on the planet) they have formed isolated populations in differing locals that have interbred into various colormorphs. Some PDFs may only exist in isolated islands of jungle in the near future as habitats are lost. Captive bred PDFs may become the only examples remaining of certain morphs in a decade or two. Keep any hybrids out of the general gene pool. Don't mess with perfection. 
(sorry about any spelling errors)


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Hm... it sounds like we all know where each other stands. I think it'll resort to me staying on my side of the fence and playing in my playground and you on yours.

It seems to me when you go to the basics, and that's what we need to do, people are generally keeping these frogs because the look cool and they have interesting behavior. People are fasinated by them.

The average person walking through a pet shop or reptile expo is not going to give a rip about natural ecology or genetic integrity. They'll say "cool looking frog"... "35 bucks... Ok" 

It is the PET trade.... Though I give a lot of respect to those trying to save the species in the wild and their habitat. But I own pets. I have them because they look cool, I enjoy their behavior, and the vivariums are a show piece of beauty, nature, and peace in my home. 

This has nothing to do with preserving a species. If it did. I wouldn't own them. I'd have DVDs of the rainforest.  

I know you bleeding hearts reading this are starting to break a sweat and your temp is rising :evil: 
but the simple matter is, is that the more these frogs are bred and introduced into the general pet trade the more people who don't care about conservation, ecology, and natural morphism will be owning, starving, drying out, and buying more.... sorry for the run on. 

A simple solution to me would be for those of us who own frogs and breed them, keep them out of the general trade. Try to stop the general demand, but you can't. You ultimately have no control over the future of these frogs except for the ones in your care for the few years that you have them. 

...and back to a comment previously stated that those of use who feel hybridizations isn't such a bad thing. In my belief. It isn't about money or attention. For me it's curiosity. The same curiosity that intreged me to own these frogs to begin with.

By the way... I've got an azure-nella (azureus/citronella) for $595.00. It looks like a yellow azureus with blue legs. I've got five ready to go. Pictures coming soon.

I hear the E.L.F. (Dart frog Nazi's) coming now.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

we have some control over it, the little control we dont have is because complete losers like you make hybrids and then sell them. and someone who is in to snakes or lizards is probably gonna buy them, not know its a hybrid, breed them, then sell their babies and somewhere down the line they might screw everything up. if people on here knew who you were i doubt they would ever sell anything to you or buy anything from you. and why would you sell them for that much??

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: normally i keep my cool but i have no tolerence for people like you.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

And there goes the hobby...

I would gladly pay any price for your entire collection but sadly I don't have enough room in my freezer...

Honestly, what a waste.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Well, I hate how this is, and I know a lot of members dont want it to get to this point. But lets take AKC as an example. I paid $300 more for an AKC pug than one out of the newspaper. Why? because the AKC looked like a PUG, there was an obvious quality difference, and better yet, I knew it was 100% pug. If hybrids in the dart community get out of hand, I'd pay an extra $20 bucks for a frog that came with a certificate proving the blood line/parents and showed it wasn't a hybrid. Again, I know many members (including those involved in ASN) dont want it to get to that, but I for one support the idea.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ha, $595ea? Don`t you think that`s a bit much considering anyone can buy 2 - $50 ea or less frogs and have as many as they want for under $100. If someone buys them at that price I think they get what they deserve. I just wish the money was going to habitat preservation. So basically it looks like a citronella? Yellow body blue/black spots and blue/black legs?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

hah cant believe i missed this before!

so you say its all about curiosity, THEN WHY ARE YOU SELLING IT?! especially at such a high price??


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

Quaz said:


> By the way... I've got an azure-nella (azureus/citronella) for $595.00. It looks like a yellow azureus with blue legs. I've got five ready to go. Pictures coming soon.
> I hear the E.L.F. (Dart frog Nazi's) coming now.


SARCASM ALERT!!! SARCASM ALERT!!! THIS IS ONLY A DRILL. IF THIS WAS A REAL OFFER OF A HYBRID FROG, YOU WOULD BE DIRECTED TO YOUR LOCAL ASN STEWARD. THIS CONCLUDES THIS TEST OF THE SARCASM ALERT NETWORK. WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULAR PROGRAMMING ...

Please don't take this bait seriously.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

We can see from his signature that he doesn't even own a Citronalla. No one was fooled. My sentiments, however, do not change.

Honestly this topic should be locked. It has served its purpose.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Honestly this topic should be locked. It has served its purpose.


I second that motion. All in favor?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> All in favor?


Yes please. We've beaten the franken-frog mutant horse into a bloody hybrid pulp....and then beat it some more.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

I agree.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

do it, before i say something that gets me kicked off


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

When I get done laughing i'll continue....


I'm sorry... I don't know why I had to fan the flames, I just had to. I am completely kidding about the azure-nella. Oh...my... I just had a little after chuckle...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Quaz said:


> The average person walking through a pet shop or reptile expo is not going to give a rip about natural ecology or genetic integrity. They'll say "cool looking frog"... "35 bucks... Ok"


But this is exactly what makes the dart frog hobby unique. Have you been to a major PDF event? It ain't your average reptile expo. Late night discussions very much revolve around natural ecology, conservation, and genetic integrity. That's what draws so many of us together. And that is what makes the hobby interesting to us. If it were to become like "typical" herp expos, many of us wouldn't be here.



> A simple solution to me would be for those of us who own frogs and breed them, keep them out of the general trade. Try to stop the general demand, but you can't. You ultimately have no control over the future of these frogs except for the ones in your care for the few years that you have them.


Which is exactly what ASN is attempting to do. Create managed populations that are insulated from what happens in the general pet trade. The community you are interacting with here is not the general pet trade. There is a difference.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

For some reason Brent, that reply struck a note with me.

No, I've never been to a PDF specific event. I'd like to go but I've never seen one close enough.

And I do apologize about my amusement at the expense of the passion that so many of you have. 

I'll try to limit my antagonizing remarks.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I find that when I get into debates with froggers who have been in the hobby awhile much of the debate actually revolves around semantics. I belive this to be true because the vast, vast majority of froggers I consider to be the 'experts' and 'gurus' usually have very similar thoughts about very important topics like mixing, hybrids, lineage and such. 
There are topics that have been gone over and over and over which involve 'experts' trying to explain benefits or detriments to certain practises. The one common thread which seems to hold those that wish to constantly argue with 'experts' together is that they have not taken the time to research what the hobby as a whole holds base foundations of thought as to where our hobby should be headed. Now, we have no dendropolice , nor have we elected officials to control said areas of our hobby so let me make a point , rather than 'busting' someone for hybridizing.
A full ten percent of those polled here say that they think hybrids in the dart hobby are OK. That means that 90 percent do not. That 90 percent includes all (not guessing here) of the cream of the crop, the 'gurus' , the 'experts', those that have been in the hobby for longer than a few months, those than have done research and actual scientific studies, those who others not as experienced go to to glean pertinent , relative , helpful information. That being said, the hybrid proponents are not.
There are a few reasons for holding the hybrid option as a want. One that has been brought up is greed. Pure simple greed. Now Quaz and Jer say this is not their motivation, but it is the motivation of some others who would hybridize. Is pure greed a good thing or bad in our hobby? Another reason for wanting to hybridize, which is sited as Quaz's and Jer's reason , is curiosity. Well, you will have to elaborate on what you are curious about and how it will be satisfied by hybrids because if you simply want to see what one looks like then there are TONS of picture I (or anyone who wants to do do a search here or other places on the web) can post. What I really belive most of the 10 percent here are driven by is simple ignorance. The lack of knowledge as to the true and lasting detriments of hybridizing. While greed can not be cured , one's curiosity can be satisfied and ignorance is surely not a permanent thing.
So, I guess to help out those that are curios I need to know exactly what those are curious about and I will try to satisfy that curiosity. And for those who are ignorant to the down-sides of hybrids, well, there are probably in the many hundreds of posts with very hard facts that can be found here and other sites. For any having trouble finding them please PM me and I will help with the search or/and other info I can pass along. 
If there is something I am missing , please feel free to point it out.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

thedude said:


> Jer said:
> 
> 
> > thedude said:
> ...


Correct. They were bred for food. And yes, you could put other species of fish into a pond to cut down on skeeterz. People putting koi in ponds is far from "rediculous" as you say.


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## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

Rich Frye said:


> Well, you will have to elaborate on what you are curious about and how it will be satisfied by hybrids because if you simply want to see what one looks like then there are TONS of picture I (or anyone who wants to do do a search here or other places on the web) can post.


Post away. I even had a thread that a I created specifically because I wanted to see some pictures of crossmorphs, and I have yet to see any. I believe you even posted in that thread. With that said, seeing a picture, and actually owning a specimen are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Pattern and colouration, for me, are a large part of my curiosity. After all, that is the strong motivator behind "designer" herps, is it not? Interspecific, intraspecific, or plain old horrendously inbred specimens that result in intriguing colouration or patterns and anything out of the ordinary is what I like to see. I do also enjoy natural species. Why can't I enjoy both?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Jer said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you will have to elaborate on what you are curious about and how it will be satisfied by hybrids because if you simply want to see what one looks like then there are TONS of picture I (or anyone who wants to do do a search here or other places on the web) can post.
> ...


Jer, very simply go to http://www.frognet.org/gallery and type in "hybrid" in the search function. You will see three different hybrid darts. 
Buy or borrow a copy of Wall's "Jewels" and you will see more. 
I can direct you to more if needed , but you will see that the hybrids look like a cross between their parents. Nothing outstanding or spectacular at all.
These pics should be enough to satisfy your aesthetic curiosity. 
Now , the other reason (not taking greed into this picture) for the 10 percenters wanting to hybridize I sited will take a bit more work for me to remedy, but I am willing to help where I can Jer. Ask away.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Yet another place to see a hybrid...
http://dendroworld.co.uk/forum/search.p ... 94e11108de

Just type in "hybrid pic"


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## Blue_Frog (Mar 3, 2008)

Here you go Jer...

Here is the hybrid http://www.wildsky.net/frogs/eeedtinctoriusagreja.htm

And here is what nature already produced. http://www.wildsky.net/frogs/eeetincwhit.htm

As you can see there wasn't much of a payoff by breeding a hybrid. It came out looking similar to something that already exists, but less interesting in my own opinion. I'm not attacking you here by any means. I do understand your curiosity with hybrids, but hybrid dart frogs don't seem to produce anything very spectacular or even very different looking. Most of the time a dart hybrid looks like a muddled composition. The colors or traits that you desired generally never come through the way you hoped they would. You have to admit, your interest in dart frogs was spurred by just how cool they look already. There's not much sense or excitement in breeding a hybrid that doesn't look as cool as something that already exists. 

P.S. Here's the main picture link I pulled those images from. You can translate to english in the upper left had corner. You can find a few other types of different hybrid frogs there as well, but none of them are really all that different or interesting from the original. http://www.wildsky.net/frogs/species.htm


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

and another site Jer.....

Look for the big X and Amopoto


http://www.tropical-experience.nl/index ... &Itemid=27


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## Blue_Frog (Mar 3, 2008)

Rich, thanks for posting that last link. It's fantastic! I've been looking for more information exactly like that.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

This thread is wildly off course now. Bocomo, your comments are truly evidence of how quickly this thread needs to be locked. Seriously unacceptable...


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> I don't think greed has anything to do with hybrids.


Sorry, but there are many examples of such.Many.



Bocomo said:


> I think it might be cool to see what hybrids look like. Plain and simple people.


Well, now we all have seen what they look like. Plain and simple. Want to see more without actually creating them?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

swampfoxjjr said:


> This thread is wildly off course now. Bocomo, your comments are truly evidence of how quickly this thread needs to be locked. Seriously unacceptable...


Actually , this thread is pretty much on course and I can't see there being a reason to lock the thread. I have not seen any true personal attacks.
Ignorance should not be a reason to close a thread. 
Bocomo, what reasons beside curiosity do you have for the pro-hybrid stance? Aesthetic curiosity being satisfied by the many pics sited.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

I have actually never seen a picture of a hybrid. 

None Rich. Just curiosity. I would not breed hybrids personally, but it would not bother me if others did.


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## Bocomo (Nov 21, 2007)

Angler of the fly, why would you want to lock this thread?


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Rich, I always admire your interest in staying the course in any debate/thread of interest. You do great justice to the unsavory topics that sometimes burn the rest of us out. However, I must disagree that the statement "I can't wait until you go to Iraq" does not fall under the category of personal attack. Semantically (as I know you are fond) Sbreland's future whereabouts are clearly "personal" and of no business to the rest of this community unless expressly stated by Sbreland. Also, though this is less semantic and more contextual, I will be surprised if you feel that the statment taken as a whole was entirely without malice.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Bocomo said:


> I have actually never seen a picture of a hybrid.
> 
> None Rich. Just curiosity. I would not breed hybrids personally, but it would not bother me if others did.


Well, I must say that when people express an interest to see hybrids as you have, and multiple pics are sited, I would fully expect the interested (curios) party(ies) to take advantage of said pics.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Ok - the junk has been cleaned out of this thread.

As for locking it - I find no reason why this thread needs to be locked. For every discussion - there is usually more than one side. Just because you disagree with some of the opinions being expressed, it doesn't mean the discussion should be closed (as long as the conversation is maintained in a civil manner). This is an issue that will always be present in the hobby - and I don't feel that hiding it under the carpet does any good for anyone.

However - if you feel the need to continue to post statements in violation of the UA - continue to expect to see them removed.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I have no problem continuing this discussion, as long as it proceeds civilly. This is a conversation worth having, but I'm afraid that we will only continue to circle around and around without any real progress.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

flyangler18 said:


> This is a conversation worth having, but I'm afraid that we will only continue to circle around and around without any real progress.


I also highly doubt there will be any real progress. This is a common argument in many sectors of the herp hobby. And there are almost always two camps - the "mix and make pretty" and "nature made it pretty enough". Like democrats and republicans - only with out the all the hot air and BS - oh wait..... :lol:


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> And there are almost always two camps - the "mix and make pretty" and "nature made it pretty enough". Like democrats and republicans - only with out the all the hot air and BS - oh wait..... :lol:


And who says there isn't room for a viable third party 

As far as the topic at hand, yup, it's going to come down to the two camps firing shots across one another's bow.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Rich, I always admire your interest in staying the course in any debate/thread of interest. You do great justice to the unsavory topics that sometimes burn the rest of us out. However, I must disagree that the statement "I can't wait until you go to Iraq" does not fall under the category of personal attack. Semantically (as I know you are fond) Sbreland's future whereabouts are clearly "personal" and of no business to the rest of this community unless expressly stated by Sbreland. Also, though this is less semantic and more contextual, I will be surprised if you feel that the statment taken as a whole was entirely without malice.


I agree with you and at times forget that I tend to have a thicker skin than many here.  

Rich


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I voted no. Read the responses of everyone else who backs this stance to see my stance. No point on grinding the dead horses bones into powder.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> ... but I'm afraid that we will only continue to circle around and around without any real progress.


Well, I am not sure if this is the case. I have asked Jer, Bocomo, and Quaz what their interests were in hybrids and all seem to agree that it is simply an aesthetic curiosity. Many pics were cited and as any who have seen hybrid darts will agree , they are nothing more special (and quite often less) than the known pure breeds we have available in our hobby. So, if the statements are true and a simple curiosity of what the hybrids look like is all that has prompted them to either say hybrids are Ok or actually express a wish to breed hybrids , this pictorial info should work to satisfy said curiosity and quash the need to propagate hybrids. 
If there is still a lack of education, and not a simple curios need, for those that were/are in the pro-hybrid camp then I think there is more than enough factual information available to turn them away from the Darkside. We amy just need to answer more questions or do searches for them. :wink: If there are those who do not have the mental tools (and I don't belive there are those involved in the thread who do not) to prossess the info being passed along in this thread , well, we may just loose a few to the Darkside. Can't win 'em all. :wink: :wink: :shock: :wink:


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

actually jer i ment that its rediculous the koi were bred in the first place and that they were then shipped over here so we could introduce them to a bunch of ponds. i havent got a mosquito problem in the huge amount of wetlands in my area because i make sure that the NATIVE salamanders that eat them stay quite common, becuase i like things to stay NATURAL. oh sure, i could mix the salamanders from other parts of the state too. in fact it might look kinda cool :wink: or hey, heres a better idea! i could put a bunch of albino bullfrogs out there! thatll show those mosquitos whose boss...and they look better than the originals!


nice job rich, that was really great to read


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

funny thing about all the times these sort of chats come up is that despite how many people are against hybrids and despite how many currently breed pure frogs, people seem to believe and act like a switch will get flipped that will suddenly force *EVERY* breeder to breed hybrids and suddenly force *EVERY* person to want them.
nothing would stop people from breeding pure genetic lines and selling them via communities like this one. nothing would force people to buy hybrids from unknown sellers or sellers who are known to make hybrids. nothing would stop any of the groups/organizations from breeding pure genetic lines for the purpose of releasing into the wild for population reestablishment.

i'm not saying i want hybrids. i like plain and natural looking too, which is a pain when it comes to looking for snakes (ugly pale/washed out or albinos everywhere). but it will happen eventually, as the hobby grows and more people come into it who are more interested in making money off the frogs then preserving the genetic lines.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

I have to say, I like Defaced's quote on his signature.

"This hobby is about 10% what you know, and 90% experimentation." - Lon Heim (DartMan)

Who's the 90% now? ( No need for defense. I'm sure hybridization wasn't the meaning) I just thought that was funny.


You know... I circle around with my self on this issue. 

Let me bring out two things... and don't let me get off track. Please let me know what you folks reading this think of these to subjects.

1) Expert/ guru breeders (DB sponsers) selling line breeds and usually for a good price i.e. (no dot citronella tincs, fine spot azureus, chocolate luecs, color specific pumilio) I'm sure there's a bunch more. It's not greed... It's business (try not to make a debate out of that) What about your super blue and silver auratus aren't breeders breeding the silverest and bluest of the bunch? If a trend appears in luecs where there bands start to conect more and look like webbing will we breed them to what they SHOULD look like? If an azureus has large dorsal and lateral spots and resembles a blue sip. will we decide whether to continue breeding it or like offspring? 

2) The mass pet trade. turqouise auratus are coming out from the blue and the greens in the panama farms or where ever the wholesalers are getting these.Pumilio are being sold by color not local or morph. More and more mixes are and will be coming out from consumers in the pet trade who never knew this was a hobby. They just have a couple pet frogs. And how many people, professional or not that sell their frogs really check who they go to? I haven't set up one tank for a customer who hasn't asked for multiple color varieties in their frogs. What I do is rotate juveniles with adults in a few of the maintenance vivariums I service when they really want different frogs. It seems to work with agression and breeding, and they raise frogs that I can breed or sell as adults.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Quaz said:


> 1) Expert/ guru breeders (DB sponsers) selling line breeds and usually for a good price i.e. (no dot citronella tincs, fine spot azureus, chocolate luecs, color specific pumilio) I'm sure there's a bunch more. It's not greed... It's business (try not to make a debate out of that) What about your super blue and silver auratus aren't breeders breeding the silverest and bluest of the bunch? If a trend appears in luecs where there bands start to conect more and look like webbing will we breed them to what they SHOULD look like? If an azureus has large dorsal and lateral spots and resembles a blue sip. will we decide whether to continue breeding it or like offspring?


Good point. A few (I would say less than the 10percent of pro-hybrid froggers) are selective breeding for certain traits. But not the Gurus (well not very many at all) and this selective breeding is also frowned upon. There is the far end which are hybrids, the other far end which is selective breeding. Both are considered bad. The only thing about selective breeding is that you can always re-introduce a non-selectively bred pure breed into the selectively bred animals population and eventually get back to what the vast majority in the hobby want. What is represented in nature. Not too hot, not too cold, juuuust right. AHHHHHH. :wink: 
Many topics on selective breeding also though so if this does not hit home I can elaborate or the search function is available.



Quaz said:


> 2) The mass pet trade. turqouise auratus are coming out from the blue and the greens in the panama farms or where ever the wholesalers are getting these.Pumilio are being sold by color not local or morph. More and more mixes are and will be coming out from consumers in the pet trade who never knew this was a hobby. They just have a couple pet frogs. And how many people, professional or not that sell their frogs really check who they go to? I haven't set up one tank for a customer who hasn't asked for multiple color varieties in their frogs. What I do is rotate juveniles with adults in a few of the maintenance vivariums I service when they really want different frogs. It seems to work with agression and breeding, and they raise frogs that I can breed or sell as adults.


Pretty much every point you make in the above quote is a direct result of ignorance on the part of customer, imported, breeder/seller, and/or a combination of any or all three. That or the absolute lack of willingness, the want to take the time, to do research and learn the proper road to take.
What is coming in as 'farm raised' is an issue best discussed in another thread , but register your frogs as they come in or at least ask and keep track of what you have. 
I for one will not sell to just anybody and people who do, in my mind, are contributing to the ignorance we see all to often posted here and elsewhere.


So, Quaz, has your curiosity been satisfied by the many pictures supplied? And were there in-fact other reasons for the pro-hybrid stance?

Rich


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## Blue_Frog (Mar 3, 2008)

So far none of the people who are in favor of hybrids have even commented on he hybrid pictures/links that were posted. It makes me wonder if it's something they're really interested in or if they're speaking up just for the sake of debate. For all we know they may not have any frogs at all and aren't actually a threat to the hobby. That being said, just because someone is a member of this forum doesn't mean that they're actually involved in the hobby beyond this forum. In order to be "into" the hobby a person has to take interest in more than the fact that these are just little frogs. Keeping them alive takes some real effort and It's the details of the animal that make a person't interest in them last. If that's not something that genuinely interests them, then I don't think they'll be around for very long. There's always an exception to every rule, but most of these people probably aren't in the position to even breed a hybrid. 

As more unique species are brought into the hobby the interest in hybrids will fade even more than it already has. I'm still a newb to this hobby myself, but it would be cool to see more energy put into that goal.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Well Rich, I've seen most of those picutures before. I don't think curiosity ever has a cure for any of us it may just be redirected. 

Dart frogs are like a whole new diverse pallet of colors for those burnt out on the snakensteins. I've never successfully bred any reptile or amphibian except dart frogs. The main thing that keeps me from mixing the species that I have is the passion that so many in the hobby have to keep it pure. I enjoy the discussions on the forums and communicating with other hobbiests about their frogs and vivariums and I wouldn't like hinder that because I don't have the same passion about not mixing.

If people are looking for a reason why I still don't think it's a big deal to cross breed morphs, I don't think I can give a solid answer. I believe I understand the explanation to the detriment of the hobby as an "untampered herp nitch". As far as our frogs doing any good to those in the wild that's pretty far fetched as the large the desire to own these frogs grows the larger the demand on exports will be nomatter how many are breeding in captivity. One point with natural conservation is that the captive care is a great education tool. For the argument against hybrids mixing in with the pure breeds. Since there will two camps any way, those who really care won't by a frog frog a guy who has a table full of two headed turtles, purple pythons, glowing leapard geckos, and a talking fish.

I'm inbetween the extremes, not for a lack of knowlede, not for pure curiosity, not for greed, but because I simply don't really care. This is because with all of the arguments against hybreeding it comes down to who want's their frogs one color and who, the other. I just don't feel the real weight or the reality of a threat when it comes to mixing the different species of dart frog. They're all captive subjects for our amusement/ enjoyment, curiosity, education, and the elite few who are on a mission to save mother earth through dart frog husbandry. 

Now as I said, so that the elite doesn't hunt me down and steal my whole collection for the good of man kind, I have no disire to mix the morphs that I own. If or when I do sell a frog I can tell you exactly who and when I got it and more than likely who they got it from.

By the way...sorry for the long post...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

zaroba said:


> funny thing about all the times these sort of chats come up is that despite how many people are against hybrids and despite how many currently breed pure frogs, people seem to believe and act like a switch will get flipped that will suddenly force *EVERY* breeder to breed hybrids and suddenly force *EVERY* person to want them.


But as has been mentioned before, there is some justification for this belief. We have cited numerous examples where if breeding hobbies are allowed to take their natural course, it results in the prevalence of hybrid and selectively bred specimens to the complete exclusion of the original wild types. 

The second law of thermodynamic applies here: "energy systems have a tendency to increase their entropy" The unmanaged hobby is much like a random system. Once genes are mixed, they cannot be unmixed so the shift is in a one way direction from segregated wild types -> mixed gene hybrids (entropy). It can never go the other way. The only way to stop it is to apply energy to prevent the randomization of genes. 

Traditionally the hobby has applied this energy through peer pressure such as these debates. But that is really ineffective. To truly maintain the genetic integrity of a population, you need to maintain a minimum of 120 individual specimens in a pedigree management system. Ideally this number should be closer to 500 to allow a margin of safety. This means that multiple hobbyists have to coordinate their breeding management to maintain the genetic integrity of a single captive population. It isn't something that a few hobbyists can just "choose" to do on their own. I wish it were simple as that, but it's not.

That's why ASN was formed, and that's why I harp on it so much. This hybrid issue has been around for 2 decades and it isn't going to stop. There is this attitude out there that the hobby can protect itself from hybrids simply by having a subset of hobbyists choose to breed pure animals. But it is much easier to pollute pure gene pools with hybrids than it is to keep gene pools clean. If we are really serious about this issue, then the hobby needs to pull together and get serious about managing gene pools. If not in ASN, then in some other organized program.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Jer, can you please try to at least offer something in the tiniest bit helpful or productive when you post?
Any thoughts or comments on the hybrid pics now that we have done the digging for you?
Anything you can actually offer?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Jer, can you please try to at least offer something in the tiniest bit helpful or productive when you post?


Rich, I believe that was Bocomo.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> > Jer, can you please try to at least offer something in the tiniest bit helpful or productive when you post?
> 
> 
> Rich, I believe that was Bocomo.


 Shoot, you are right, and my post still stands , but I add Bocomo to it.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

rozdaboff said:


> Ok - the junk has been cleaned out of this thread.
> 
> If you feel the need to continue to post statements in violation of the UA - continue to expect to see them removed.


x 2


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

bbrock said:


> zaroba said:
> 
> 
> > funny thing about all the times these sort of chats come up is that despite how many people are against hybrids and despite how many currently breed pure frogs, people seem to believe and act like a switch will get flipped that will suddenly force *EVERY* breeder to breed hybrids and suddenly force *EVERY* person to want them.
> ...


doesn't that just show what the potential market as a whole wants more? 
like snakes and geckos. people wouldn't have bred albinos or selective bred colors, etc, etc if there wasn't a market for them or if people weren't willing to pay the higher prices for them. if people refused to buy special colors, etc then the breeders wouldn't have seen a point in breeding them and would have kept the genes pure.

i'm sure snakes and geckos started out with small (relatively speaking) communities like this one that were filled with people wanting pure lines too.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> I have to say, I like Defaced's quote on his signature.
> 
> "This hobby is about 10% what you know, and 90% experimentation." - Lon Heim (DartMan)
> 
> Who's the 90% now? ( No need for defense. I'm sure hybridization wasn't the meaning) I just thought that was funny.


No, it is not funny.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

Why even bother debating this? Every single time this comes up a small group of people ask the same questions, push the same buttons, and in general ignore all therational reasons not to produce hybrids.

I think the greatest purpose a thread like this can serve is to provide us all with a list of people we should never buy or sell frogs too.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

that would work except for the fact that people can still buy them from pet shops and reptile shows. or directly from peoples websites if you don't know there account name here.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

zaroba said:


> doesn't that just show what the potential market as a whole wants more?
> like snakes and geckos. people wouldn't have bred albinos or selective bred colors, etc, etc if there wasn't a market for them or if people weren't willing to pay the higher prices for them. if people refused to buy special colors, etc then the breeders wouldn't have seen a point in breeding them and would have kept the genes pure.


Not really. I've been around long enough to remember when normal leopard geckos were considered cheap at $180 pair and when Grandis day geckos were sold for $500 each.. the vast majority of the markets that are into the hybrids etc were in it for the dollar and then were in it to see who could produce the hottest new color morph... (which coincidentally goes for the most money).. I can remember when the line breeding produced the first blood corns which would only feed on other snakes and required force feeding for significant periods of time before they would eat unscented food items (and were prone to dying..). I can also remember the drive to produce "sockhead" pueblan milksnakes and greybands until the lethal traits came out and "sockheads" went mostly out of style. This can be seen with ball pythons as well.. If I remember correctly, at least one of the dominant morphs when expressed in the homozygous form can show significant neuromuscular issues. There is a thread discussing this in corns (see http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showth ... 329&page=2).. 

And to further comment with ball pythons here.. to date there are hybrids of ball pythons with blood pythons, carpet pythons, and angolan pythons.. 

Another item to consider when looking at the other designer morphs is that these go in and out of style which wreaks havoc with the ability to maintain even the morphs. I've been around long enough to watch the burmese python market go through cycles and I can think of at least one time where the normal patterned babies were worth more than the albinos.... 

The reason people want the new item is the same thing that drives many people in this hobby to jump onto the hot new dart frog.. the desire to have something no one else does and this then drives the market which then entices people to get into the production of those morphs.... however the dart frog hobby is at a tipping point.. we can become the same as those other hobbies where people don't try to keep the populations viable and end up having to get more frogs from the wild (if they are still available (I have heard that at least one population of blue auratus may no longer exist in the wild if I remember correctly) when frogs in general are undergoing huge population declines or we can try to maintain the populations long term. This hobby has some tools that were unavailable to the other hobbies when the morphs came out and went crazy (how many people do you think were seduced into ball pythons by the idea of breeding the snakes and depending on the morph getting up to $100,000 dollars??? (and yes one of the original two blue eyed leucistics went for that price)).... 

As I stated in a post above, people need to be aware of the history in this hobby. We have seen several near extinction events in some species of the frogs we like and currently have what looks to be extinction events or near extinction events going on right now with some of the larger dart frogs. I would be less concerned about the hybrids if this was not happening and people would stop putting up a picture of a frog gotten from some dubious means and asking for it to be identified as to morph.... this latter way is a perfect method for hybrids to get into the general population..... 

Some comments... 

Ed


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## Blue_Frog (Mar 3, 2008)

Ed said:


> As I stated in a post above, people need to be aware of the history in this hobby. We have seen several near extinction events in some species of the frogs we like and currently have what looks to be extinction events or near extinction events going on right now with some of the larger dart frogs. I would be less concerned about the hybrids if this was not happening and people would stop putting up a picture of a frog gotten from some dubious means and asking for it to be identified as to morph.... this latter way is a perfect method for hybrids to get into the general population.....
> 
> Ed


 Rich Frye posted this link earlier in the thread. http://www.tropical-experience.nl/index ... &Itemid=27 I think that if it were more complete that it would be an extremely valuable tool. If people (Especially those that are new to the hobby!) were more aware of what is or is not desirable in the hobby and what is or is not a genuine species or morph it would accomplish much, much more than this thread ever will. Someone with the knowledge and ability needs to take action and not just debate the topic in circles. A successful ONLINE reference tool could effectively control the market and drive down the desire and price of hybrids. The more desirable you make something the better. Just like what they do with every other collectible.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> We have seen several near extinction events in some species of the frogs we like and currently have what looks to be extinction events or near extinction events going on right now with some of the larger dart frogs.


What I find to be ironic about this, and correct me if I'm wrong Ed, is that the species involved are actually 'common' ones that most people assume are established in the hobby. I get concerned with some of the comments I've seen lately with some of the new Peruvian imports and pumilo morphs, e.g. "Hopefully you can get those breeding and out into the hobby so we can get them established." 

I think "popular and frequently talked about" gets erroneously equated with "established" in this hobby and creates a false sense of security. 

I was talking with someone at NWFF last year and they said, "Once I sell a frog, I pretty much consider it gone." This is one of the reasons I feel the ASN is so important--it provides a sense of accountability for the species in our care, helping to prevent those registered from slipping through the cracks.

If we've historically had a hard enough time managing and sustaining these frogs _as they are_, to even entertain the possibility of pursuing the hybrid road is short-sighted and misguided.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> > We have seen several near extinction events in some species of the frogs we like and currently have what looks to be extinction events or near extinction events going on right now with some of the larger dart frogs.
> 
> 
> What I find to be ironic about this, and correct me if I'm wrong Ed, is that the species involved are actually 'common' ones that most people assume are established in the hobby. I get concerned with some of the comments I've seen lately with some of the new Peruvian imports and pumilo morphs, e.g. "Hopefully you can get those breeding and out into the hobby so we can get them established."
> ...



Yes, we are seeing the beginning of this with auratus, tinctorius, and possibly galactanotus... some of the thumbnails may also hit this track as well over the next several years.... Some of the tincts used to be virtually everywhere but now you see them offered for sale much less frequently (if at all). 

Popular and/or easily available can be a false indicator of established, you are absolutely correct on this point. We don't even have to look far to find an example of this in the hobby.. Bumblee bee toads (Melanophryniscus stelzneri) were readily available for less than $20 and now are extremely difficult to find.... 



skylsdale said:


> I was talking with someone at NWFF last year and they said, "Once I sell a frog, I pretty much consider it gone." This is one of the reasons I feel the ASN is so important--it provides a sense of accountability for the species in our care, helping to prevent those registered from slipping through the cracks.


This is of course the tool I was referencing in my post above. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Frog said:


> Rich Frye posted this link earlier in the thread. http://www.tropical-experience.nl/index ... &Itemid=27 I think that if it were more complete that it would be an extremely valuable tool. If people (Especially those that are new to the hobby!) were more aware of what is or is not desirable in the hobby and what is or is not a genuine species or morph it would accomplish much, much more than this thread ever will. Someone with the knowledge and ability needs to take action and not just debate the topic in circles. A successful ONLINE reference tool could effectively control the market and drive down the desire and price of hybrids. The more desirable you make something the better. Just like what they do with every other collectible.


A successful online reference tool would not make the difference as people could still identify frogs by what they think they look the most like resulting in hybrids being bred into the populations. 
The best tool is to register the frogs and track the pedigrees... simply controlling what is and what is not a morph doesn't mean that we will still have the same "type" of frog in the trade in 10, 20, 40 or 100 years. It is totally possible if many of you stay with the hobby for 20 or more years (or come back to it) to see the loss of one or more morphs due to mismanagement of the gentics due to high and low popularity events causing the loss of the genetics of the frogs.... 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

zaroba said:


> bbrock said:
> 
> 
> > zaroba said:
> ...


It only shows that there IS a market for those designer animals. It does not tell us anything about what the majority wants because of the one-way nature of genetic change. Like I said before, once you mix genes, you can't unmix them. BTW, once you selective breed animals, you MAY be able to remix the genes but you will never recover the original proportions of alleles in the original population. But back to the point. When you have such a one-way system, it becomes possible for a minority of people to dictate what is available for everyone. Entropy is the natural progression of things. Hybridization is entropy. It takes effort to maintain the same genetic isolation that is found in the wild.



> i'm sure snakes and geckos started out with small (relatively speaking) communities like this one that were filled with people wanting pure lines too.


That was not my experience. It started with people who enjoyed collecting animals from the wild. Then they started breeding them. The hybridization occured very rapidly and the relatively unorganized hobby never really had a chance to react and sort our what the various niches of the hobby might be. The PDF hobby is in a much better position for this. 

I think the orchid hobby really has some strong lessons for us. There was an epic wave of collecting during the Victorian age and those plants were hybridized extensivly to the exclusion of many species in captivity. In the mean time, wild habitats were destroyed and many wild species went extinct or became extremely rare. In recent decades, the orchid hobby had an awakening to the plight of species orchids and orchids in the wild and with 150 years of history behind them, they have been able to organize to support both the species and hybrid aspects of the hobby. Unfortunately many species had already been lost and some species were only brought back into greenhoused by collecting them again from the wild. So market forces drove the hybridization of orchids to the loss of species. Then when market demand shifted to an emphasis on species orchids, it drove a new wave of collection from the wild. A wave that might have been largely avoided if the species were managed in captivity to begin with.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> This hobby has some tools that were unavailable to the other hobbies when the morphs came out and went crazy (how many people do you think were seduced into ball pythons by the idea of breeding the snakes and depending on the morph getting up to $100,000 dollars??? (and yes one of the original two blue eyed leucistics went for that price))....


Came across this today: 1.0	IVORY LAVENDER SUPER TIGER RETICULATED PYTHON
Python reticulatus	
CB'07, First ever produced	*$20,000.00*

It's most definitely about the $$. 

I have to think that even selling a single hatchling of some of these outrageous color phases and mutants is proving lucrative enough to keep these breeders going. Yikes.


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## Blue_Frog (Mar 3, 2008)

Ed said:


> A successful online reference tool would not make the difference as people could still identify frogs by what they think they look the most like resulting in hybrids being bred into the populations.
> The best tool is to register the frogs and track the pedigrees... simply controlling what is and what is not a morph doesn't mean that we will still have the same "type" of frog in the trade in 10, 20, 40 or 100 years. It is totally possible if many of you stay with the hobby for 20 or more years (or come back to it) to see the loss of one or more morphs due to mismanagement of the gentics due to high and low popularity events causing the loss of the genetics of the frogs....
> 
> Ed


 I do agree that the proper management of bloodlines is important, but I think you're drastically undercutting the value of readily available information. Saying people will still misidentify frogs really isn't a valid excuse. Sure, a lot of people mention ASN, but I have yet to see a link to a home page or much organization around it. Of course, I'm fairly new to the forums so there is a good chance that I missed it, but so far the whole ASN thing just comes across as an elitist tag under a user name. There is no ONE solution, but I think something like this http://www.tropical-experience.nl/index ... &Itemid=27 could certainly help to peak an interest in preservation and aid the cause.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Sure, a lot of people mention ASN, but I have yet to see a link to a home page or much organization around it.


 :arrow: http://www.treewalkers.org/index.php?op ... e&Itemid=8

:arrow: http://www.treewalkers.org/projects/ASN/


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

Blue_Frog said:


> Sure, a lot of people mention ASN, but I have yet to see a link to a home page or much organization around it. Of course, I'm fairly new to the forums so there is a good chance that I missed it, but so far the whole ASN thing just comes across as an elitist tag under a user name. There is no ONE solution, but I think something like this http://www.tropical-experience.nl/index ... &Itemid=27 could certainly help to peak an interest in preservation and aid the cause.
> 
> As a person who is fairly new to the hobby I see a lot of people talking about TWI/ASN or whatever it is, but


A number of users on this board (including myself) have TWI links in their signatures.


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## Blue_Frog (Mar 3, 2008)

Thanks for the links, guys! I just checked it out and it seems that unless I pay to become a member I can't get access to which breeders follow their code of ethics or much of anything else for that matter. How does a non-member make use of such an organization when all of the information is for members only? The general public has no idea whether or not paying for a membership will actually be of any use or benefit. I don't see how it can be of any real use to the general public...


Benefits of Becoming a Steward
There are many reasons to become an ASN steward. Among these are: 

Ensuring the long-term maintenance of captive populations
Access to centralized database of captive holdings and studbooks
Participation in organized network breeding stock exchanges
Access to steward-developed knowledgebase of husbandry and conservation practices
Potential to participate in other amphibian captive breeding programs



P.S. I'm not trying to start a fight or upset anyone, I'm just saying that it's an idea that needs some refinement.


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## ScottT1980 (Mar 1, 2008)

Super noob, so my apologies in advance...

Is there no such concept as "hybrid vigor" in these crossed species? It is often sought after with our more domesticated mammalian species (something with which I am much more familiar). Of course, we control every aspect of the environment in captivity so it is not as much a concern I suppose.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Frog said:


> Thanks for the links, guys! I just checked it out and it seems that unless I pay to become a member I can't get access to which breeders follow their code of ethics or much of anything else for that matter. How does a non-member make use of such an organization when all of the information is for members only? The general public has no idea whether or not paying for a membership will actually be of any use or benefit. I don't see how it can be of any real use to the general public...
> 
> 
> Benefits of Becoming a Steward
> ...



One of the benefits see http://www.treewalkers.org/magazine/ to a membership. 

ASN through TWI has the use of the same soft ware that is used by Zoos in tracking thier populations and used in tracking thier populations.... 

As for determining if the site if of any use there are links to the mission statements etc on the home page (see http://www.treewalkers.org/about/)

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Frog said:


> I do agree that the proper management of bloodlines is important, but I think you're drastically undercutting the value of readily available information. Saying people will still misidentify frogs really isn't a valid excuse. Sure, .


The problem with the use of pictures to identify morphs is that this is a subjective method and does not take into account that not only is there is variation within a morph but there can be variations within a hybrid causing it to look more like one parent or another. Usuing a pictorial guide does nothing to deal with these issues.... This is where the problem then occurs with the identification and interbreeding. 
The use of a pictorial guide to determine what is and what isn't a specific morph is of much less value when compared to actually managing the gentics of a population.

Ed


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## Blue_Frog (Mar 3, 2008)

Ed said:


> The problem with the use of pictures to identify morphs is that this is a subjective method and does not take into account that not only is there is variation within a morph but there can be variations within a hybrid causing it to look more like one parent or another. Usuing a pictorial guide does nothing to deal with these issues.... This is where the problem then occurs with the identification and interbreeding.
> The use of a pictorial guide to determine what is and what isn't a specific morph is of much less value when compared to actually managing the gentics of a population.
> 
> Ed



Sure, there could be variations of hybrids, but that just gives people more incentive to buy from an authorized breeder. Think of it as a marketing strategy for the hobby. The online picture reference guide I'm thinking of wouldn't be focused on hybrids. It's main purpose would be to show various pictures of existing species and where they came from etc etc etc similar to the link I provided before. Sure, pics of hybrids could be posted and certainly there could be variations just as there are in a pure bred species, but the point is that the online guide would be a piece of a larger effort to discourage hybridization. If it shows value in pure breeds and no value in hybrids, then that information is absorbed by the general newbies and applied. The more desirablilty you show in one direction then the more likely the public is to follow. From a business perspective it's a moral brainwashing marketing tool.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Blue_Frog said:


> Thanks for the links, guys! I just checked it out and it seems that unless I pay to become a member I can't get access to which breeders follow their code of ethics or much of anything else for that matter. How does a non-member make use of such an organization when all of the information is for members only? The general public has no idea whether or not paying for a membership will actually be of any use or benefit. I don't see how it can be of any real use to the general public...


The reason a membership is required is because there is overhead for web hosting, fiscal sponsorship for 501(c)3 status, ISIS membership, etc. Plus, ASN requires participation to work. If you could benefit from all of the tools that ASN provides (and most of these are still in development anyway) without actually participating in the program, then there wouldn't be much of an incentive to become active. But if you go to the documents section of the ASN link that was already posted, you can download the full ASN Handbook, or a pocket guide version that just gets to the meat of how the program works. We try to be as open as sharing as possible in ASN, but there are some things that have to remain members only. But taxon management plans are available for download from the site for the general public. Currently there is only one completed but several more in the works. We have to bear in mind that ASN only became functional last July so it isn't even a year old yet.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Blue_Frog said:


> I do agree that the proper management of bloodlines is important, but I think you're drastically undercutting the value of readily available information. Saying people will still misidentify frogs really isn't a valid excuse.... The online picture reference guide I'm thinking of wouldn't be focused on hybrids. It's main purpose would be to show various pictures of existing species and where they came from etc etc etc similar to the link I provided before.


But even the sorts of reference guides you mention and link to are already abused. The problem is that people (even if it's not intended) end up using them as absolute law rather than as a very general reference. Any variation from the idealized image becomes grounds for a new morph or type of frog (such as "microspot" or "sky blue" azureus). So at that point it isn't even about misidentification anymore, but the actual creation of something else. This then thins out the already small bloodlines we have, making management even more difficult.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> Blue_Frog said:
> 
> 
> > I do agree that the proper management of bloodlines is important, but I think you're drastically undercutting the value of readily available information. Saying people will still misidentify frogs really isn't a valid excuse.... The online picture reference guide I'm thinking of wouldn't be focused on hybrids. It's main purpose would be to show various pictures of existing species and where they came from etc etc etc similar to the link I provided before.
> ...


One of the tools that ASN does already offer can be downloaded by anyone. Inside the ASN Handbook is a decision key for determining assignment of specimens to a captive population group. That key is intended to use all available information to make the best possible determination for where a speciment should be placed genetically. We would love to get feedback on that particular tool as it is designed to bring consistency to the process of assigning animals to particular breeding groups.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

There are a number of reasons that guides are just a very basic reference tool. Look through the Tropical Experience site. How many pictures of each species, morph, sub-species, ect. are represented? Not even close to enough to get a slight visual reference to what each population looks like with intra-population variations. How many measurements of male and female weight and length are noted? Calling? 
While the DE guide is one of the best open to the public it is very far from complete, or a tool to be used to ID with any absolution. The natural variations are so wide sweeping that it would literally be an unending task to catalogue even a slight percentage of the species we now have in the hobby, much less all of the species in the wild. Known or unknown. 

Rich


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Jer said:


> Pattern and colouration, for me, are a large part of my curiosity. After all, that is the strong motivator behind "designer" herps, is it not? Interspecific, intraspecific, or plain old horrendously inbred specimens that result in intriguing colouration or patterns and anything out of the ordinary is what I like to see. I do also enjoy natural species. Why can't I enjoy both?


I don't have the time to read this giant thread, nor do I typically get sucked into threads like this, but I'm a bit pissed today so maybe I'll put my 2 cents in. 

Your statement just bugs me... I find it very shallow and ignorant...Sorry Jer, but I find your desires very similar to the desires of the proverbial 'bimbos' that turn their heads when they see something shiny.

IMO the pro hybrid voters pose a real danger to the hobby and to captive populations. I honestly hope that if someone is spotted selling or breeding hybrids they should be outed and the community should be warned.

I could understand your point a bit more, if 99% of all the frogs were plain green. I could also understand you feeling unsatisfied if you already had all of world's naturally occurring colorful frogs and wanted more. What possibly could you be getting off on if you saw a tinc marked as a leuc ? Just knowing that the it took the PDFs so long to evolve into what they are today and having somone screwing it all up in a matter of evolutionary milliseconds is really revolting to me.

I'm very glad that the PDF community is so pro keeping the natural bloodlines...makes me really proud to be in this hobby.

I suggest you look beyond "shiny" and shallow and 'I want, I want' ... if you want crazy colours take up photoshop. Like somone said earlier, you're not looking at screwing up a single specie but a whole genus or even worse.

sorry, didn't mean to pick on 'bimbos' :mrgreen:

before you comment on my signature, no I'm not crazy about leopard geckos and hybrid orchids either.


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## maximusdendrob8 (Jun 12, 2009)

If Hybrids are produced, it'd be interesting to observe their habits in their own environment. I don't believe it's necessary to deprive their existence...just ensure it doesn't happen again. Community Vivs generate different behavior patterns in certain species and may seem interesting to us but has it's many concequences...on the Darts. It may be wise to sex your Darts first, keep all males in community vivs perhaps?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

WHY? Why ressurect this?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

frogparty said:


> WHY? Why ressurect this?


LOL

and i dont use that often


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## batrachiophyle (May 7, 2009)




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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

This is a little off-topic, but it goes with the point that somebody mentioned about snakes and leopard geckos. 1: have albino and melanistic frogs been made? and 2: if some are made in the near future, if you could fit it in your budget, would you buy it? I noticed that this looks like I'm saying his/her point is invalid, I'm just asking if it has been done, and yalls opinion on it. Thanks


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

well....ya know....uh...

forget it.

I....got nothin'..


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

the poll doesnt give enough options..


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

If you notice the poll was from 2/08 and after the hybrid mess started with the alanacits.
DCreptiles, yes or no and explain is pretty much it.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Okay, I pressed yes by mistake, I meant no. Just thought I'd clear that up.

If a mod could change or delete my vote it would be appreciated.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

lol^^^^^^^^


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