# Tricolor tads + algae = bad?



## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

So, the care sheet for tricolors says: "DO NOT FEED THESE TADPOLES ALGAE BASES TADPOLE MIXES"

Why not? Does that mean that all algae (spirulina and all the rest) is bad for tricolor tads? Or does it just mean that algae shouldn't be the main food? I tried to use search and find an answer, but maybe I used wrong search words since I didn't find any information abut this.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Algae based diets in E. tricolor and E. anthonyi produces significantly undersized froglets (and by that I mean literally half the mass of healthy, large froglets). These froglets tend to be tricky health wise... due to the prevalence of algae based diets by most PDF keepers, with the recent rise in popularity of these frogs, these undersized froglets have earned E. anthonyi the reputation of having tricky froglets and this is just not true, they were just raised incorrectly.

E. anthonyi and E. tricolor are true detritus eaters... their diet should consist mostly of tadpole bites, tropical fish flakes, and leaf skeletons. While they will eat algae that grows in the tadpole tanks, this is not a significant part of their diet, and I make a point to not have my tad tanks grow algae... when there is not enough light the algae is replaced with a slimly layer of bacteria which is extremely good food for the tads. 

In truth, most PDF tadpoles do not eat algae as a major part of their diet... the only exception of the frogs established in the hobby I know of are retics... Kyle did a preliminary study of tadpole diet using the most common diets used in the hobby on D. auratus tadpoles... the aglae based diets produced smaller froglets that spent a longer time in the water... Epipedobates show this same difference, but to a much stronger degree. The prevalence of the algae based diets is part of the cause many long timers see as being a major reason for the trend over the past few years of seeing smaller froglets...


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

Thank you for the great answer. 

I was thinking about spirulina (orange carotenes and yellow xantophylls) and if I can offer some to the frogs. It wouldn't be the stable diet, just added sometimes in hopes of it helping their coloration. The main diet would consist of cyclopeeze, micro worms, fish food, indian almond leaves, frozen bloodworms and cyclops (OT: Does this sound ok?). 

Since it's not dangerous to the frogs, just not good as a main diet, it's ok to offer it now and then? I really want to offer the best to the tads to come in the future.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

To offer the best to your tads to come, just skip it. It's not worth the money. If you've already got some, use it with your D. tinc group tads, and D. retics if you've got them, but skip it for thumbnail tads and Epipedobates.

Coloration wise, spirulina is not the supplement you're looking for... there have been a couple extensive threads on this subject, especially with E. anthonyi, but here is the jist.... use peprika and naturose. Cyclopeeze will also contain some good color supplements, and "color enhancing" fish flakes that contain beta carotene for color, NOT HORMONES, are good as well. I'd also use Tadpole Bites as a main staple of the diet, I've not tried them on too many tadpoles, but the tadpoles I have use them on have given me good enough results to recommend them, lol. I've not fed cyclopeeze, micro worms, frozen bloodworms, or cyclops to my tads, so I can't really comment on them. The only one I intend on trying in the future out of that list is cyclopeeze...

Boil the almond leaves to soften them up (also gives you tadpole tea concentrate at the same time!) and the epi tads will adore them... excellent food source you can have in the tank 24/7 without messing up water quality, what you can't say for any of the others! Be VERY careful when feeding out some of those other foods, if not eaten they can cause very serious water issues, when they go bad some of them can make all the water go bad. Feed very small doses that are eaten quickly... better to feed a bunch of tiny meals over the day and have perfect water quality than one or two large meals a day and have serious water issues... more water issues, more stress on tads, more water changes (which also stress the tads...) you just can't win in those situations... the key is to not get into them in the first place.


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh. I suppose I'll have to try to find a place that ships those tadpole bites to Finland. The ingredient list looks good (even though it has flour which has not much benefits, mainly makes the food cheaper, and there's also preservatives). I'll try to find naturose too.

Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ah, oops, forgot about that :shock: I've traditionally used color enhancing tropical fish flakes with very good success. Another product to look at is Sera Plankton Tabs which were just recommended to me for epi tads... I've not used them but they have a good base of what you were feeding anyways... it does include spirulina, so you'd get the benefits with that, probably without getting a lot of the negative effects of using it as the main food... I just wouldn't use elsewhere in the diet.

Naturose is produced in Hawaii, and the company that produces it says its used in 40 countries world wide... its used mainly for aquaculture, so I don't know how easy it will be to find in the aquarium fish hobby... I know its used in foods and sold separately for the aquarium fish hobby in the US and Australia, but I don't know about other countries  A good place to start looking is with discus breeders...


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

Because of the Internet, world is smaller than it used to be, so I'm sure I will be able to find them from somewhere. Might just take time and if these eggs are good (do these eggs look goodand I won't have much time before I have tads, or do they look bad and I have more time to prepare for the next try), the tads will be hatching in under two weeks, but well, I have fish food for now. Maybe someone at ebay sells those things. I want as much variety as possible. 

I managed to find Dendrovit Pro-Aktiv tadpole powder from E.N.T Terrarientechnik: A premium mixture containing vitamins, amino acids, trace-elements and additives, which are necessary for rearing tadpoles. Using this mixture will have the following advantages: reduced incidence of spindly leg syndrome, fast and healthy growth of the tadpoles, no pollution of the water when feeding moderately. It's somewhat expensive, 11,50 euros (~15 dollars) for 100 grams, but I found some positive experiences when I did a search with Google.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I would just use fish food.

Clawed frog food also is pretty much the same stuff. I'm planning on ordering Xenopus Express' tadpole diet or adult sinking frog food because it has very high amounts of protein.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The eggs are bad, so you've got time to try.

I've not tried the Dendrovit, so I can't speak for it, but I know I've raised these tads on much cheaper food with great success! I also have to wonder what tadpoles they were developed for... the more I look into PDF tadpoles, the more I'm realizing the variety and differences in diet beyond the obvious... I don't think there is a PDF tadpole food that fits them all. Most tadpole foods, at least on this side of the pond, are developed and tested on the most common species... the tinc group. What works ok for the tinc group doesn't mean it will work ok for the epipedobates... such as the example with algae based diets... the tinc group does not show such severe issues with the diet as the epipedobates can...

I'm also skeptical of things that reduce incidence of SLS... there are many causes to this, and tadpole diet is not one of the most common causes I've heard of... adult diet and water quality/temps seem to come to mind more than tadpole diet. I've had small anthonyi/tricolor froglets from bad diets... I've not had SLS from bad diets on the tadpoles part.

While I think tadpole diet is important, I think having solid base components of the tadpole diet is more important than variety... variety is key in adult diet (think of how many species of bugs they eat!) while tadpole diet is rather limited to what they can get in a puddle... detritus like leaf litter, some bacteria muck, an occassional snack on a dead sibling or bugs that get in the water... I don't think its lack of variety that's causing problems as just having the wrong staple. Can't go wrong with a good tropical fish flake and some wild almond leaf/oak leaf skeletons, and I might try that route before spending the money on a food that may not work!


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## rain- (Jul 28, 2006)

I was afraid of that, the white appearing in the middle of the black thing can't be good, ever (I haven't been able to find much pictures, how do good eggs develop, do they turn all black or stay part dark and part white?). And since this was their first attempt at age 7 and 10 months, you can't expect perfection, but I am proud of these little ones. I suppose I should just remove the eggs and let the male rest.

And thank you again for detailed and really informative answer. I'm starting to understand the basic of tadpole care better. Since I've dealt with fish for 17 years, I know the water issues and things like that, but all that spirulina, other foods, SLS and things take a while to learn. I've read most of the threads in the baby care part of this forum, but reading so much has mostly just made me more confused. Lots of information, some not fitting together with others.

You have a really clear way of explaining things and I thank you for that. I know these are things that get asked time and time again and after a while answering them to people who can't use search get tiring.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The eggs will start half black half white, usually with black facing up but occasionally eggs will get disturbed and turn white side up (no worries about this, they will develop fine if fertile). General rule (at least with this species) is if they are good, they will turn all black, if they are bad they will turn all white. Exceptions to this are the species that lay white eggs, LOL, but this isn't one of them.

7 to 10 months is a good age for them to start, and about average. Usually it take at least a couple clutches, and up to around 6 months for them to start getting full fertile clutches. Anthonyi and tricolor usually make it easy to tell if they are fertile or not... after the first couple days if the male is still guarding, they are fertile. If he's not, they are infertile... the fact you got a photo without the male in it was a big clue they weren't fertile. After the male stops guarding them, you can remove them. Those boys don't waste their time on bad eggs so no worries on needing to give him rest.

There is a lot of good bits of info floating around, but it can be hard to piece them together at first. That's a major reason for my long winded responses... I try to fully explain in hopes that pieces will eventually start falling together. Search can help a lot if the specific topic has been talked about... this topic has been hinted at in a couple posts, but not explained in detail, so search wouldn't help you much. Great thread to get going 

SLS seems to appear in anthonyi and tricolor from what I've gathered for two reasons... new breeders often experience SLS froglets in a clutch or so, as they start before they are full sized and haven't got a whole lot of reserves since they've been growing so much. This is solved by time. The other is that anthonyi and tricolor and breed until they burn out... they will have perfect clutches, then SLS pops up, tadpoles and eggs become less hardy, etc. I reduce this by letting the parents care for and transport their own eggs. when you removed a clutch before they transport, they have a predator response... oh no! someone ate the eggs! gotta make more... so they can produce more than they typically would in the wild. When you're that small making 25+ eggs at a go, thats a lot of reserves you use up!

Spirulina is a popular fad right now... but think of it this way... its like feeding guppies spirulina flakes... they will live on it, reproduce on it, but its definitely not the healthy live bearer diet... a diet of FFs would be much more their style... in fact, I like using live bearer diets for my tads, lol. The spirulina flakes ended up springtail food.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I personally don't like Frog Bites. In addition to the flour and preservatives mentioned earlier, it also has a lot of corn meal in it. Corn meal is a low nutritional value filler.

This is what I feed to my azureus tads:

http://www.jurassipet.com/Products/JurassiDiet_NF.html

I also try to vary their diet some. Sometimes I'll feed high quality fish food, or dead fruit flies if I forget and leave some in the dusting cup (they love those) and Cyclop-EEZE or frozen brine shrimp. Have to be careful with the meat-based foods, though. They can cause your water to go south in a hurry.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Here is the old post, and I was never able to produce the data the way I wanted from the second test, but over all I tested almost 200 tads, from auratus, tincs, imitators, leucs, and azureus. The second test was never posted, but included weights and etc... It basically showed the same results.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8004

Over all, the algae based foods did poorly. The best in my tests, in order, were tadpole bites, brine shrimp, and fish food. While there were cases were brine shrimp and fish food produced froglets at the same weight, size, and time, they both fouled the water a good bit more. This then caused higher losses.

I do think the JurassiDiet looks interesting. The protein content seems a bit low at 35%, compared to some other things out there. Maybe if I get some free time in the summer I can run another test. I have some other foods I would like to test as well.


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