# seeding with outdoor soil/leaf litter.



## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

Anyone here do that? I was thinking about grabbing a handful of leaflitter and some soil to spread around a new tanks substrate. The intent is to add diversity to the micro-fauna.


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## FrogOly (Oct 5, 2007)

The only problem I can see is what micro-fauna will be added, and would all that micro-fauna be a positive addition? The potential for harmful organisms probably outweighs the the benefits.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

You definitely risk bringing in pathogens from 'the wide world'  That being said, I use oak leaves that I collect from my property- give them a nice long bake in the oven at about 300 degrees to kill any nasties.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

As long as Im sure the leaves came from a pesticide free area, I dont treat them before use. I used to boil them, but it seems to have been a waste of time.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I do it ALL the time. As was said, pesticides are an issue. And chytrid is something to also be concerned about. But as for bringing in nasties, the changes are really low and the benefits of the seeding are huge. Everything we do carries risks. It is up to us to decide if the potential benefits warrant those risks. In my experience in this case, yes they do. But chytrid is a growing concern.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I have to echo Brent--I do it all the time as well, and I've never 'treated' any of the leaves, soil, etc. that I've added to the tank.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

Outside of chytrid, what other dangers have people experience by bringing in things from the wild. I'm referring tohings that are specifically harmful to the frogs, not the viv itself. I've read a lot on here about how fragile frogs are, but how often has something gone seriously wrong by bringing in wild materials?


James


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

Another thing to look at is how many more/different type of bugs, etc. are in the frogs natural habitat that which they deal with in the wild on an everyday basis. I'd bet there are a bit more bugs, etc. in a rain forest than in dirt and leaves from in the US. Now whether those bugs in the US are harmful to darts ? or similar to those same bugs encountered in a tropical rain forest is also an issue.

XM, I suppose if someone brought in a mass amount of dirt, etc. then predator/poisonous bugs might be an issue aside from pesticides.

Also, keep in mind the visual appeal of a viv. I've brought in outside things such as leaves (not oak or mag leaves, an unknown type) that I guess weren't used to the humidity and after a few days the leaves were covered in mold, making the viv look nasty.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm not concerned about bugs or anything on that level. My concern is fro microorganisms such as bacteria and fungi. Since I am introducing things from outside, there is the risk of contaminating my viv with something harmful, however I am not sure how prevalant harmful (to pdf's) organisms are in our soil. 

James


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## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

if the frogs are healthy arent fungi and bacteria nothing to worry too much about?

zbrinks have you seen any tiny bugs in your tank that you are sure were introduced from the addition of wild leaflitter/soil?

now as im thinking about it im wandering if the seeding will actually work at all since the microfauna thats in my back yard comes from a completly diffrent habitat than what my vivarium replicates.

thoughts?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Serious problems to frogs encountered after using untreated forest soils/ compost in vivs? Zero. Minor problems, millipede outbreaks. Snails that might occassionally devour an egg clutch (same with millipedes), grasshoppers and leaf hoppers that poke a few holes in leaves (adding to their aesthetic appearance IMO), and once I had a wolf spider grow to reasonably large size but never harmed the frogs and was exiled when its size exceeded even my lacks standards.

I would venture that most bacteria that would cause problems with frogs are already in our vivaria regardless of treatment protocols. Most fungi should not be an issue to healthy frogs either with the notable exception of chytrid. 

There are a few viruses that I would worry about if I collected soil/litter from an area with infected amphibians (ranavirus for example). One thing I do is avoid lowland/wetland sites for collection and stick to uplands where native amphibians are likely to rarely travel. That should decrease the probability of a disease transfer significantly.

As for introducing poisonous insects, this is a non-issue to me. Frogs consistently do better with meadow plankton and I don't filter by anything other than size. If it is small enough to pass through plastic cross-stitch cloth, then it goes into the viv, regardless of whether it has a sting, bite, or noxious spray. The frogs are pretty good at deciding what tastes good and what doesn't. And we are talking about a group of species famous for their ability to eat poisonous things and use those toxins for their own purposes.


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## floridaboy (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm currently dealing with hookworm, and have lost 4 frogs so far (one more fading fast, trying new meds). So these types of things are on my mind. The hookworm most likely did not come from outside but knowing how wide spread and common they are scares me. I've been baking everything from the get go, bleach for alot of things too like leaves and rocks(just being cautious). Has nobody brought in hook worm from doing these seedings? Not to mention flushing all the money(+ work/time in) you put into the vive down the toilet because your tank is crawling with parasites. I just switched my substrate and redid my only vive(clay + killed pump) and it was a bunch of work, I can't imagine destroying the numerous vives you long timers have. I understand benefits associated with this kind of seeding but wouldn't something like hookworm just ravage everything you've built?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

floridaboy, I believe hookworm is primarily something those of you in the south/eastern part of the country have to worry about: http://tmcr.usuhs.mil/tmcr/chapter12/12-02.jpg Not to say it's not an important factor to consider, however.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Ed could answer the question about parasites much better, but in general, most (but not all) parasites don't live long outside a host, and the can be pretty sensitive to environmental conditions. It's my understanding that hookworm is most prevalent in soil conditions that are not too wet and where fresh feces are present. The upshot is that adding live soil is not risk free, but with a little common sense and tolerance for the unexpected, the risks of anything catastrophic happening are fairly low. But low is not zero.

As for success of adding inverts goes. Yes, it does produce results, but the success rate is low. Most of what goes into the vivarium is eaten or dies. But every now and then something takes off. I've posted the list of inverts in one of my viv before, but it includes several things that rode in on soil (including a littel beetle that has been going for many years). Of course the more closely the environment where the soil is collected matches that of our vivs, the higher the success rate. And the size of the viv is important. Check out the sustainable viv thread for more.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I wouldn't stick to that map as that looks like the maps used for hookworms that infect humans.... 

With hookworm, the larva can directly reinfect the host allowing for very large infections to buildup however if you alternately wet and dry the soil over time you can reduce or eliminate the larva (see http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/content/abstract/2/1/102 and http://weblife.org/humanure/chapter7_8.html) but it depends on temperature and moisture and can take weeks or several months. 

Ed


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

definitely do not stick to that distribution map. Distribution maps are not difinitive when it comes to whether something is near you or not. When was that map created? What are its references? I would view a map uch as that as a rough approximation of the distribution. 

Another thing to consider is human transportation. With so much travel throughout the US going on. Things are hitchhiking all over the country. They may not become established but that doesn't mean that the possibility isn't there. As an example, do some research on bedbug pevalance in the US during the 1900's vs today.


James


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I'll admit, the likelihood of bringing something devastating into the viv from outdoors is pretty darn slim- and my own precautions are unnecessary and paranoid  

Come to think of it, I regularly start springtail and DWW cultures with 'wild' collected leaves and I've never experienced anything remotely 'bad'- maybe a little mold or fungal bloom that quickly subsides. Probably time to stop worrying about introducing 'foreign' bodies into viv unless you're in a possible chytrid area.



> I would venture that most bacteria that would cause problems with frogs are already in our vivaria regardless of treatment protocols. Most fungi should not be an issue to healthy frogs either with the notable exception of chytrid


. 

Excellent point as usual, Brent.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flyangler18 said:


> 'foreign' bodies into viv unless you're in a possible chytrid area.
> 
> 
> > At this point, I would be hesitant to declare and region in the USA free of chytrid....
> ...


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> At this point, I would be hesitant to declare and region in the USA free of chytrid....
> Until the question as to the presence/absence of a resting spore for chytrid is determined, drying or heating the leaves is sufficient to prevent any risk of chytrid.


Thanks for clarifying, Ed. When I collect leaves from my property for use as leaf litter, they always go into the garage for long-term storage and a thorough drying. If I need something relatively quickly, then they get heated in the oven.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Ed said:


> flyangler18 said:
> 
> 
> > 'foreign' bodies into viv unless you're in a possible chytrid area.
> ...


Agreed, which is why I consider it a legitimate worry. The conundrum is that drying or heating the leaves also tends to kill the majority of stuff you were hoping to obtain from the leaves in the first place. It is an issue with no easy answers. We know we have chytrid in various areas of the state, but we don't have a clue about specific distribution of the disease. So I collect my materials from the same location always. It is on a south facing slope behind my house (we live in the sticks) in a Douglas fir grove. I monitor for signs of amphibians in our area very closely and am confident there is a low probability of amphibians using this particular area. But for the first couple years of using soil from this spot, I watch my frogs very closely for any signs of trouble. Now I'm a little more confident. The point I can't stress enough is that the risk is there, and it is real. But for me, the risk is far lower than the benefit I get from using the materials so I choose to take it. My concern is that somebody will say, "ah Brent says the risk is really low" and then they are the ones that get smacked with something nasty. Low risk, is not zero risk.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

To answer an earlier question, Ive had mites, and even spiders, reproduce in the viv that apparently came in from outside. Ive actually captured some of the mites, since my leucs seemed to like them so much, in an attempt to culture them. One spider is still left, and he/she makes a new web across the front lid of the viv after every feeding.


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

I see a market opening for "safe soil."

Would frog keepers be interested in a buying a batch of beneficial microorganism rich soil. 

Making micro organism rich soil would be easy just using a sterile soil, a small amount of clean "starter soil," and some time.

Arthropods could be done the same way, it would just take a bit more time to get a "seed culture" up to the scale of a vivarium.
(but I feel this is ideal since each vivarium will support a different community composition)


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## floridaboy (Feb 26, 2007)

OK so I have to ask what other microorganisms have you guys been able to establish in vives other than various springtails, and isopods? I ask because I see mention of all these wonderful different organisms but not really what they are(with exception of beetle mention). I would certainly like to expand my beneficial microfauna diversity but I would like to know what I'm missing. I have active cultures of Tropical springtails and an absolutly booming culture of Dwarf White isopods and probably still some hypoaspis miles mites still floating around(kinda an accident). Also how many of these local bugs are looking to be good food sources?


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

floridaboy said:


> and probably still some hypoaspis miles mites still floating around(kinda an accident). Also how many of these local bugs are looking to be good food sources?


Not sure where I saw/read the following, but it was recently.

It was a picture of over a 100 mite species identified from an area of forest soil 12" X 12" X 2" deep

The amount of species of arthropods in a handful of forest soil is easily larger than all the species currently under mono culture propagation in the US frog hobby

a good food source? anything that will catch the frogs attention and fit in their mouth. I know there are many toxic insect/arthropod species out there, but any one in particular managing to dominate the vivarium soil to the point of posing a toxicity risk to the frogs is probably minimal.
(I know that was a gross generalization, feel free to tease out some better guidelines)


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

floridaboy said:


> OK so I have to ask what other microorganisms have you guys been able to establish in vives other than various springtails, and isopods? I ask because I see mention of all these wonderful different organisms but not really what they are(with exception of beetle mention).


http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... wig#231630


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

one thing you could do if not already suggested (i just scanned the thread)...is to pick out individual organisms that look frog friendly or using very small samples of soil that looks rich in micro organisms. Then culturing those samples in their own container and then using that to seed tanks from.

Getting ahold of some rolli pollies(i think many frogs will eat the very small larva or babies of even the hard shell variety) or dwarf, or tropical woodlice would be a good start...start some cultures of those and let em get established in tanks before adding frogs. 

As long as u dont overpopulate a tank its pretty hard for the frogs to completely destroy springtale and woodlice populations completely. providing plenty of leaf litter, rocks and wood for these organisms to hide in and under limits the frogs ability to destroy them completely. providing atleast a constant if small stream of food even in times where your cultures might not be doing well or while your on vacation. A large tank with few frogs and good populations of microorganisms can sustain itself and the frogs for a very long time.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ve been doing a bit of this lately. It`s hard to pick out new sringtails and soil bugs w/out finding their nemesis along w/ them. Most of my new cultures got predatory mites that I didn`t pick out 5-10 starter bugs added to a fresh sterile coco peat environ. Some cultured great just to get taken over by predator mites a week or 2 later. Best of luck we need more of this to learn and find new sources of pathogen free food. I`m setting aside animals for fecals after I get a new type going and test it`s palatability.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> I`ve been doing a bit of this lately. It`s hard to pick out new sringtails and soil bugs w/out finding their nemesis along w/ them. Most of my new cultures got predatory mites that I didn`t pick out 5-10 starter bugs added to a fresh sterile coco peat environ. Some cultured great just to get taken over by predator mites a week or 2 later. Best of luck we need more of this to learn and find new sources of pathogen free food. I`m setting aside animals for fecals after I get a new type going and test it`s palatability.


That's actually going to be a bit of a challenge. The species within communities of microfauna that can be sustained will somewhat depend on the size of the ecosystem (meaning volume and surface area of substrate) and the availability of microsites/microhabitats within the ecosystem. So some species may do well in individual cultures, others not. When transferring seed amounts of substrate to another container, it is likely that some species will respond to the transfer well, while others just don't find the conditions of the new container acceptable. Or there may be species that will only thrive when introduced to a fairly mature community such as something that needs a suitable population of prey. For example, suppose you had a few million acres of land you wanted to recreate a little piece of African plain on and you just took a sample of species from an existing African ecosystem. That sample might include a couple dozen prey animals like zebra and gazelle, and a couple of lions. Those lions would most likely starve before the prey population reached sufficient size to both sutain their own population, and feed the lions.

So starter cultures may be great to get a new system off to a good start. But to fully develop the microfaunal community may require repeated seedings at various stages as the ecosystem matures.


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