# Azeuras eggs deteriorating



## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

Keeping the eggs in petri dishes inside cups with lids inside a homemade incubator. Misting with 100% RO water. Temp in the incubator is 74, water temp is about 80-81. The cups are about an inch off the water. Im guessing that they are getting too warm or too moist. There is no molding, they just go from developing to falling apart over night. Should I try putting them inside another container or raising them up further from the water? Maybe lower the temperature of the water? I had better luck without the incubator but still no hatches that were good. A couple of still births only. Any insight would be very helpful... getting frustrated!~


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## yenrec (Jun 7, 2007)

try covering the eggs halfway with distilled or spring water inside the dish. I have done this with all mine so i didnt have to worry about humidity as much and i havent had any problems so far. I just put enough water into the dish to partly submerge the eggs. hope this helps


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

It took me a long time to get good eggs from my Azureus, they kept doin the same thing for several months, Just turn to mush.
The advice above is good, and some patience. Your water temps seem a little high, but thats just my 2 cents. I keep mine in mid 70s.
Good luck.


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

So spring water is better than the RO water I am using? The air temps around the incubator are like 55-60 degrees in my basement so the water temp needs to be pretty high to keep air temp inside up. Ill crank it down a bit for the next batch which was layed last night. They are like machines since they started about 6 weeks ago, if only I was better at this...

Hey porkchop, how long did it take before you were getting better eggs? I just changed over my flies from the smaller ones to the larger in hopes that nutritional change would help now they are adults. Thanks all for your help!~


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

Not sure if it makes any difference, but I keep all my eggs in a clear flat rubbermaid tub in the same room as the frogs are in. I spray them daily. Hope you figure this out. Good luck.


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## Ronm (Oct 1, 2006)

Over here I had great results in getting good eggs using green aphids. I raise them on green peas. The frogs love to eat them.

Ron


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

jules77 said:


> So spring water is better than the RO water I am using? The air temps around the incubator are like 55-60 degrees in my basement so the water temp needs to be pretty high to keep air temp inside up. Ill crank it down a bit for the next batch which was layed last night. They are like machines since they started about 6 weeks ago, if only I was better at this...
> 
> Hey porkchop, how long did it take before you were getting better eggs? I just changed over my flies from the smaller ones to the larger in hopes that nutritional change would help now they are adults. Thanks all for your help!~


I would probably recommend spring water for the eggs and tads. I use RO water for mistings and such, but with the sensitivity of eggs and tads the lack of minerals in the RO water may be a bit poor for them. You can add supplements to RO water such as RO right to reintroduce the minerals that were extracted though.


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## chadbandman (Dec 3, 2007)

Mine started laying about the same time as yours. To date I've gotten;2 day clutches,2 clutches W/ 1 good tad. 2 bad clutches. Just sharing my experience with you.


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

Hey Chad,
I ve probably gotten about 12 clutches already from 3-6 eggs each. I think maybe 2 that have developed full term and those were kept at room temp under the tank. Every clutch that I have put into the incubator has deteriorated. Going to try spring water and lower temps this time. Also going to cut my misting to every other day instead of daily.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When you say they are disintegrating does the body of the embryos appear to swell?

Ed


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

I say put the eggs in a petri dish inside a rubbermaid (no incubater, heater, ect). Try putting on some Methylane blue - products


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

I would say yes they are white and swelling...
I turned the temp down in the incubator, raised the eggs about 3-4" more from the surface of the water and began using spring water and the same thing happened. My plan for the next batch is to use some blackwater extract in the spring water, remove the lids and discontinue use of the incubator. I think now after reading the above advice that I will put the cups inside a rubbermade since I have a few laying around anyway.



Ed said:


> When you say they are disintegrating does the body of the embryos appear to swell?
> 
> Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

My eggs stay in fine shape in my tad-raising tank---I simply put them on a broad leaf, surround them with a pinch of sphagnum moss and keep moist daily. The acidity and water-holding capacity of the moss are greatly beneficial to the eggs, which makes having to sit them in a plastic tray (which is not proven 100% safe) with water over them (which breeds bacteria) obsolete.

Then, I observe the eggs to see when they've ruptured the membranes and transport each of the tads to their own pool of water.


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

hey earth do you have any pictures, Im having trouble visualizing. If I had gotten any of my eggs to tadpoles I might have a Tad rearing setup too ; )


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

jules77 said:


> hey earth do you have any pictures, Im having trouble visualizing. If I had gotten any of my eggs to tadpoles I might have a Tad rearing setup too ; )



Sorry my camera stinks for closeups, but here is a paint rendition----

The leaf is green and about 2 in. long (not drawn to scale), the sphagnum moss is yellow and surrounds the eggs like a nest. The blue is water misted over them. The moss should be soaking wet for this to work.

BTW, are you waiting at least a day before harvesting to ensure that they're fertilized?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

What are you using for a supplement? 

Ed


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

interesting earth... Nice idea probably a bit more natural than a petri dish
I am seeing developement after 4 or 5 days so I am sure they are fertilized but then they are going white. I have no idea when they are laying, Im not around much just kind of search and seizure mission on Sundays and I almost always find 2 batches. Currently have 2 going right now but they look to be at about the same stage of developement which is odd. I suppose she could have laid in 2 sites 7 eggs total.

Ed, I am using Rep Cal 2 part dusting although they are past the 6 month mark now. I probably should replace them...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Your temps where the eggs are has me concerned. 81f water in a 70f incubator in a 55f room? where are the frogs and what`s their tank temp? 
ed is on the right track as it`s usually nutrition that causes eggs to deteriorate while forming. They probably also don`t start to show division for 48-60 hrs instead of 24-48 too? Although too lo temps can slow division and create a similar problem. I need to know what the petri dish temp is. 
You might want to start by letting the parents try it out w/ a clutch or 2. I`d also suggest feeding springs, pinhead - 1/8 inch crickets every once in a while. Trying to dust and feed mostly ff`s as a staple is hard to get the recipe right for good enough nutrition to produce good froglets. Even when you get tads to hatch they may be weak or first froglets may be weak if there is a nutritional issue till it`s fixed/levels out.


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

the frogs are upstairs in the main part of the house. Temps are ~78 during the day and ~ 72 at night. Im now keeping the eggs under the tank in the stand and guessing the temp is about~2-3 degrees cooler maybe more. House temp is 68 during the day and works down to 62 at night. Unfortunately I cannot track division times because I am not around during the day at all and never see them laying. My new setup under the tank seems to working better but too early to tell really. I'll keep ya posted and get some new rep cal. As for food sources, I do have some spring population in the tank but have no source for alt foods other than that. None of the local stores carry pin heads


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I agree with Ed that lack of proper nutrition may be the determining factor here. The reason I believe that is partly based on what I learned in becoming a natural childbirth instructor----every 'womb' in nature, like humans, has a protective shell of some sort, or a membrane in this case. In humans, improper nutrition can lead to a premature rupturing of the membrane and the baby can be lost. It is not farfetched to conclude that since we are made similarly to other things in nature that the same cause for human miscarriage could apply to frogs. 

Many of us are aware of the ban on the pesticide known as DDT, which caused birds' eggshells to crack under the weight of their parents---best to eliminate every unnatural factor when raising the frogs, I think, because when He made them, He knew best---in the wild, they get plenty of good nutrition, so it seems logical that we should try and vary foods to most closely duplicate that environment. 

I strongly suggest you get some fruit flies---I have gotten good cultures from Buy Flightless Fruit Flies, Fruit Fly Cultures, Silkworms and Reptile Food at the Fruitfly Shop. It takes some trial and error, but you can raise them from cultures you create yourself with very little cost. Frogs cannot survive indefinitely on only springtails. Besides the limited amount of nutrition they would get eating them, there is very little, if any, surface area on the creatures to allow you to get enough vitamins/calcium to the frog in the first place. Hope this helps.


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## AndyShores (Jan 6, 2009)

earthfrog said:


> I agree with Ed that lack of proper nutrition may be the determining factor here. The reason I believe that is partly based on what I learned in becoming a natural childbirth instructor----every 'womb' in nature, like humans, has a protective shell of some sort, or a membrane in this case. In humans, improper nutrition can lead to a premature rupturing of the membrane and the baby can be lost. It is not farfetched to conclude that since we are made similarly to other things in nature that the same cause for human miscarriage could apply to frogs.
> 
> Many of us are aware of the ban on the pesticide known as DDT, which caused birds' eggshells to crack under the weight of their parents---best to eliminate every unnatural factor when raising the frogs, I think, because when He made them, He knew best---in the wild, they get plenty of good nutrition, so it seems logical that we should try and vary foods to most closely duplicate that environment.
> 
> I strongly suggest you get some fruit flies---I have gotten good cultures from Buy Flightless Fruit Flies, Fruit Fly Cultures, Silkworms and Reptile Food at the Fruitfly Shop. It takes some trial and error, but you can raise them from cultures you create yourself with very little cost. Frogs cannot survive indefinitely on only springtails. Besides the limited amount of nutrition they would get eating them, there is very little, if any, surface area on the creatures to allow you to get enough vitamins/calcium to the frog in the first place. Hope this helps.



Ding Ding Ding Ding***


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

AndyShores said:


> Ding Ding Ding Ding***


He`s feeding ff`s, just switched from melano to hydei. Ff`s aren`t a main staple in the jungle. Actually springtails would be closer to what they naturally eat.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When you say you are using the Rep-Cal 2 part are you using both parts or only one? Or are you using the Rep-Cal without D3? 

Ed


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

is this what your eggs are looking like? this is whats happening to mine lately, you can see the top one which is completely dead and the other two just suddenly had this white growth(mold?) apear literally overnight.


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

Ed said:


> When you say you are using the Rep-Cal 2 part are you using both parts or only one? Or are you using the Rep-Cal without D3?
> 
> Ed


Im using herpvite with beta carotene and the phosphorous free calcium. Im using them both in the same dusting. SHould I be alternating?

Link: My eggs look similar when they die but not as developed. Kind of looks like the tiny tadd falls off the egg sideways...

As an update: The eggs seem to be doing well this time. They are on about day 8, which is very much estimated. It's 8 days since I pulled the eggs out, no idea when they actually layed them. Ill throw on another picture at day 10 and then 12. I suppose I should start getting my tad rearing container setup...

I intend on moving them individually into deli cups with about 2" of water at first with black water extract and some java moss. I was planning on using my incubator so I could have light... should I just keep them at room temp? I could try to get the inubator at about the same as room temp since they seem to do better at lower temps...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If I understand correctly you should be using the calcium with D3 with the Herptivite not the straight calcium without phosphorus (they are two different products). If you are feeding frequently alternating is fine otherwise follow the directions on the container. 

There appears (stressing appears) to be issues with anurans efficiently converting beta-carotene to retinol which can be part of the problem and why some frogs seem to take longer to produce eggs that complete development and hatch. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I apologize. I guess my comment was taken to mean that springtails are a "better" food for darts than dusted ff`s. Although I think I said more natural staple, meaning they have much more access to them and they make up a larger part of their diet in the wild, someone figured it better to give a bad rep point than mention that to me so that we could debate it. 
Although I imagine they haven`t had much success w/ pumilio to say that.....

And congrats they look well. You might have had them to close to the water. Hi temps will sometimes cause those symptoms in forming tads.



frogfarm said:


> He`s feeding ff`s, just switched from melano to hydei. Ff`s aren`t a main staple in the jungle. Actually springtails would be closer to what they naturally eat.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If we`re giving bad reps for those statements, maybe I should show that your statements on springtails having less surface area than flies is false, and give bad reps to earthfrog and andyshores. In an equal sized cup springs have much more surface area than ff`s do.
Pore space remains the same and surface area increases as particles get smaller.


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

ok so should I just keep them in deli cups at room temp? or use the incubator and turn it down to like 73 or so? Should yield air temp of like 68-69.... 

Forgfarm are you talking about Melano. flies or Hydei or either one?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

jules77 said:


> ok so should I just keep them in deli cups at room temp? or use the incubator and turn it down to like 73 or so? Should yield air temp of like 68-69....
> 
> Forgfarm are you talking about Melano. flies or Hydei or either one?



eggs should be kept in the lo 70`s moreso than the hi 70`s.
Talking about melano or hydei for what? Melanogaster and hydei are nutritionally similar, one is just bigger than the other.


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

Just thought I would an updated picture for progress... I had 2 batches going one that had 3 and one that had 4 eggs. The one with three had a double and it molded over and it spread to the one that was left also. The one with 4 eggs seems to be doing alright. Here is the most recent picture:


Seems strange that 2 of them are on there side, maybe a bad sign but I will keep my eye on them...


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

Just wondered if anyone thinks it's time to do a manual hatching on these guys, they have been in the same state for a few days now and looks like they are out of yolk to eat.

Todays picture:








From Thursday:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I wouldn't cut them out yet as it looks like they still have the external filiments that should be reabsorbed. 
The eggs look like they are starting to flatten which is normal as they get ready to hatch. 

As a personal opinion, I'm not in favor of assist hatching of amphibians, reptiles or birds unlesss there are so few animals of that species that any loss is critical as there is probably some reason that the animal isn't hatching. 

Ed


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

ED does this mean you don't pull your eggs? I’ll play devil’s advocate here and suggest that if eggs are pulled, then it would be just in assuming the duties of the parents, and with that I’ve herd of males stomping on the eggs to assist in their hatchings when the time is right.


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'd say they are too warm and might need a little bit of ventilation I live in Nevada and it's super dry here and my azureus eggs seem to do fine despite the dry weather, hope that helps!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

basshummper said:


> ED does this mean you don't pull your eggs? I’ll play devil’s advocate here and suggest that if eggs are pulled, then it would be just in assuming the duties of the parents, and with that I’ve herd of males stomping on the eggs to assist in their hatchings when the time is right.


At work I currently do not pull them unless I am preventing them from hatching.
When I was rearing tincts in mass numbers at work (I had over 75 metamorphs at one point) I did not assist them in hatching. They either hatched on thier own or didn't and died... 
I have some suspicions on the observation of the male "stomping on the eggs to assist hatching" as the males can/may/will also walk over the eggs when watering the clutch... 
Additionally, the males may be attempting to position themselves to induce tadpoles to climb on board for transport and the movement may trigger hatching but this is significantly different than cutting a tadpole(s) out of the egg because we have a perception that it isn't hatching on its own. I'm tired and a little cranky so I may come off a little hard here but we are not programmed as parental frogs to act the same way and frogs are not using a sharp instrument to open the egg. By cutting the tadpoles out we could easily be allowing tadpoles with a developmental problem to survive (as a pure hypothetical example) such as a failure to secrete sufficient enzymes to allow for penetration of the egg membrane. Encouraging the survivial of these tadpoles can then put the population at large at risk because if sufficient people cut the tadpoles out then there isn't any real selection for tadpoles that can hatch on thier own... (as an example in mammals..Old english bulldogs cannot give birth normally, they have to have a caesarean operation). There is a significant difference between the two actions and they are really an apple and orange comparision. 

Now if you want to try stomping on the eggs yourself in imitation of the male frog we might be able to have an apple to apple comparision...... 

Ed


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## jules77 (Dec 2, 2007)

Thanks so much for your help Ed! All 4 hatched and have 5 more that are about 5-6 days away. Just hope I can keep them going through the tadpole stage and on to froglets.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> At work I currently do not pull them unless I am preventing them from hatching.
> When I was rearing tincts in mass numbers at work (I had over 75 metamorphs at one point) I did not assist them in hatching. They either hatched on thier own or didn't and died...
> I have some suspicions on the observation of the male "stomping on the eggs to assist hatching" as the males can/may/will also walk over the eggs when watering the clutch...
> Additionally, the males may be attempting to position themselves to induce tadpoles to climb on board for transport and the movement may trigger hatching but this is significantly different than cutting a tadpole(s) out of the egg because we have a perception that it isn't hatching on its own. I'm tired and a little cranky so I may come off a little hard here but we are not programmed as parental frogs to act the same way and frogs are not using a sharp instrument to open the egg. By cutting the tadpoles out we could easily be allowing tadpoles with a developmental problem to survive (as a pure hypothetical example) such as a failure to secrete sufficient enzymes to allow for penetration of the egg membrane. Encouraging the survivial of these tadpoles can then put the population at large at risk because if sufficient people cut the tadpoles out then there isn't any real selection for tadpoles that can hatch on thier own... (as an example in mammals..Old english bulldogs cannot give birth normally, they have to have a caesarean operation). There is a significant difference between the two actions and they are really an apple and orange comparision.
> ...


I like your answer---it does not have a cranky tone at all. At least you are aware that you may come across that way. I think those who view criticism as a sin might benefit from trying to view it as someone's care for them. After all, there is no one man who knows it all. 

I agree that the tads should hatch normally. The frogs will have no difficulty producing young that can survive, if indeed they can given their genes, and perhaps the Lord can allow them to genetically adapt if they can't. I am always amazed at the antics I see in my frogs---similar struggles with parenthood and social behavior that I have myself. My life has been significantly enriched by these 'jewels of the rainforest'.


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