# Measured volume vs. usable volume = frogs per square inch?



## Ukee (Jan 25, 2021)

I will preface that I am completely new to this hobby - I am currently trying to read and learn and research as much as possible to decide if and when and how to eventally dip my toes in....right now I am very much a neophyte armchair enthusiast, so forgive me if I sound uninformed.

I was looking at this lovely vivarium: ALTO that measures 22.25" x 17.5" x 36.75". In terms of volume, that comes out to just over 63 ga, but just under 400 square inches in terms of surface area. 
I realize some species are more likely than others to use vertical space, and I am aware that some species do better in groups than others, but I am curious how to assess the carrying capacity of this vivarium. How many frogs could fit in here without being crowded? Could someone give me some general examples to help me get a better idea here? Like, how many _P. terribilis _(which I understand do do well in small groups) would be OK sharing this particular tank assuming it was densely planted along it's height? How many _D_. _tinctorius azureus? _Are there any species that would be suitable for a beginner that are particularly likely to use vertical space?
Any general thoughts/opinions/advice on the pros/cons of this particular vivarium?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

You could house a pair of_ Dendrobates tinctorius_ azureas in that tank (They don't do well in groups). _Dendrobates leucomelas_ would love the extra height in that tank and are a great beginner frog.

Most frogs use a great portion of their tank space. 

I kind of jumped into the deep end and went with Ranitomeya sirensis "Rio Pachitea yellow" as me third group of frogs (my first group that I raised from pre adult sizes), they can be reclusive but are hardy, social in groups and very explorative. 

At the end of the day, the best advice I've ever gotten on dart frogs is: choose the frogs you REALLY REALLY WANT and plan around them, not trying to find frogs to fit around a building plan.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Broadly speaking, there are very small species known as thumbnails (the small Oophaga, Ranitomeya), small-to-medium species (Dendrobates leucomelas, D. auratus, Adelphobates galactonotus) and large frogs like Phyllobates terribilis and Dendrobates tinctorius.

That's not an exhaustive list, just representative. Anyway, the smaller species are _generally_ not considered a beginner species, partly because of the way they move, some difficulty in observation, or other quirks surrounding their care. 

Just based on their size and the way they move, I like longer tanks for P. terribilis although they do climb; Tinctorius are likely to use all the space including vertical, but as adults they're best housed in pairs due to intra-specific aggression.

I can't say enough good things about D. leucomelas. Sharp patterns and saturated colour, pleasant trilling call, do well in groups, use every inch of a tank including vertical, quite bold and visible, excellent beginner frog because they're hardy and can handle small environmental fluctuations that can happen during a keeper's learning curve. You could house a small group in that tank when set up correctly.

@fishingguy12345 gives you great advice about choosing frogs you _really_ want to commit to.

As for the vivarium itself, I like the In Situ line as the best out-of-the-box solutions in terms of looks and functionality. I personally prefer larger tanks but that means I do a lot of modifications or build my own (later this year) but otherwise I'd already have some of those.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

There is no solid information on how many frogs per gallon or square inch out there. If you search the older threads you will see things like 5 gallons per frog, then a few years later this gets replaced with 10 gallons per frog, then this gets replaced with 'it depends'. This leaves a lot to be desired when getting down to the nuts and bolts planning of a setup. Certain things are easy to figure out though. Tincs for example have territory in the wild measuring hundreds of meters. There is a guy on facebook that has a bunch (dozens?) of cobolts in a greenhouse but its not really clear how well they are doing there (fights for dominance, deaths etc). For all practical purposes tincs are best kept as 1 male and 1 female per tank. Some people are successfully able to keep them as 2 males 1 female per tank but that is pretty far from a sure thing and rehoming is sometimes needed in a hurry.

Terribilis and auratus are much more group friendly and you can definitely put a small group in that tank. By my calculations your tank is 61 gallons. I doubt people would give you much grief for putting 5 group friendly frogs in such a tank if its laid out correctly with lots of floor space and usable wood for the frogs to climb on/move around. Could you fit more?? Maybe, and maybe not, depends on how they do in such a setup, put too many frogs in there and one or more will get bullied and eventually die. The bullied frog will be quite shy which makes it hard to track their health. Anyway bottom line is it depends ;P


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

This is a tough topic because there is little actual data for how many frogs you can put in which tank. There is good reason for this, however, IMO. I think that certainly not all species of frogs can be treated equally. You have already gotten good advice on Tincs vs. Leucs and Terribilis. They are just not the same so what good is a "rule" that states 1 frog per 10 gallons? I think this can be extended to the fact that there is even variability from frog to frog within species. Some frogs are just cranky and aggressive. Some aren't. I think fish can be the same way. Also, not all tanks are set up the same so there are a ton of variables there. 

I think there are a couple of guidelines to follow. First, (and I am not saying this is what you are trying to do, OP) I don't think the goal ought to be to figure out what the maximum number of frogs in a setup is and shoot for that. This is just not good for the welfare of the frogs. I would look at it more as what is the minimum number of frogs that I need to keep in this enclosure?

Second, I think you should look at things from the point of view of available habitat for each frog. In a tall tank like the OP is shooting for, I think there is the obvious space on the ground that should be considered. That tank is ok in that category, but there are lots of tanks with more surface area. So, I wouldn't look at that tank as having a lot of floor space. Whatever you do, don't waste that limited floor space with decorations the frogs won't use and water features that the frogs don't need. Other than the floor space, you have all of that space aloft to work with. I would put a ton of branches, shelves and ramps (for fishingguy), plants, etc. up in that "negative space" to give the frogs a lot of places to climb and hang out. Here is where I think the design should be planned around the frogs. For smaller species (thumbnails - these are Ranitomeya, pumilio - not thumbnails), this job is relatively easy because they can take advantage of almost any surface to hang out on. Larger species require larger areas to feel comfortable to climb and hang out on. This is a bigger challenge for hardscaping because larger branches and shelves are more likely to cast shadows and block light from getting farther down in the tank. It's still possible, but in my experience, much more difficult. Overall, I think you can consider both the floor space and the hardscaping and plants aloft as potential habitat. That is what makes the frogs per gallon rule pretty pointless. Different tanks and different frogs are different. Some solid planning, though, can make it possible to put more frogs in than would otherwise be doable.

So, to complete my tome, I think you can put whatever species you want in there, as long as it is designed correctly. It would sure be easier to design a tank that tall around an arboreal species (again, Ranitmoeya and pumilio) than it would be a terrestrial one. Terribilis (and probably Ameerega), specifically, I would say are better suited to tanks with both abundant floor space and height. The heavier-bodied frogs, I would say, would all benefit from that shape of tank more than the smaller species. With the right planning, though, I think you could pull off almost any dart frog species in a tank that size and shape.

Best of luck,

Mark


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Volume and area is weird. The Alto has more square inches in its footprint than a 30" x 12" tank, but based on the lengths of their jumps and the way they prowl, I'd rather keep terribilis in the 30" x 12".

I'd be comfortable keeping leucomelas in a 22.25" x 17.5", but not terribilis. They don't generally display the same explosive movement, and climb more on a regular basis. Others may have a differing opinion, I think it becomes a careful judgement call.

So as others have noted, it can get blurry.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Fahad said:


> ...but based on the lengths of their jumps and the way they prowl, I'd rather keep terribilis in the 30" x 12".


Wait, your Terribilis jump? Mine just kind of roll around the tank. Maybe they need to go on a diet  (Actually, I am certain they need to go on a diet).

Mark


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> Wait, your Terribilis jump? Mine just kind of roll around the tank. Maybe they need to go on a diet  (Actually, I am certain they need to go on a diet).
> 
> Mark




Jumping, climbing, scrambling, and occasionally explosive movement.

They also claim they’re starving on the regular but they’re accomplished liars.

Shot of a male below, about 1 year and nine months old (at most, got him at around 4-5 months). 

He totally works out. Look how shredded he is:












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

He could totally kick my butt. Mine are definitely a bit more on the...rotund side. I think I need to get them on a diet for real. Great pic! Thanks for posting it.

Mark


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

All your terribilis talk is making me want a group... I only have room for one more 36x18x24" tank... And had been thinking about getting some tinctorius or more Ameerega....


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

fishingguy12345 said:


> *All your terribilis talk is making me want a group*... I only have room for one more 36x18x24" tank... And had been thinking about getting some tinctorius or more Ameerega....


I know a guy.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

If only you knew a guy IN CANADA...er wait!


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> If only you knew a guy IN CANADA...er wait!


 @fishingguy12345 and I have actually met in person once before, but it was shortly afterwards we recognized each other from here.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Nice! Always handy to finally meet folks in person


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## Ukee (Jan 25, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> This is a tough topic because there is little actual data for how many frogs you can put in which tank. There is good reason for this, however, IMO. I think that certainly not all species of frogs can be treated equally. You have already gotten good advice on Tincs vs. Leucs and Terribilis. They are just not the same so what good is a "rule" that states 1 frog per 10 gallons? I think this can be extended to the fact that there is even variability from frog to frog within species. Some frogs are just cranky and aggressive. Some aren't. I think fish can be the same way. Also, not all tanks are set up the same so there are a ton of variables there.
> 
> I think there are a couple of guidelines to follow. First, (and I am not saying this is what you are trying to do, OP) I don't think the goal ought to be to figure out what the maximum number of frogs in a setup is and shoot for that. This is just not good for the welfare of the frogs. I would look at it more as what is the minimum number of frogs that I need to keep in this enclosure?
> 
> ...


Thanks to all who weighed in on this, especially @Fahad and yourself, @Encyclia 
OK, fast forward and we've pulled the trigger on *3 *Altos. Bill at In Situ is a phenomenal guy and was extremely helpful. Going to get the tanks in a couple weeks. Our plan is to play the long game - set the vivariums up, make sure we can get a good and well-chosen plant community going, make sure everything is stable and healthy, and then eventually introduce frogs at some point down the line. My wife is particularly interested in the plant part of all of this and it's definitely not a rush to get frogs in. We are both quite excited about designing and planting the tanks and have lots of time and patience.
Having said all that, I think it's worthwhile to spend a bit of time considering what species might ultimately occupy these tanks and plan and design and plant accordingly. In theory, I think it would be interesting to have three relatively different setups rather than simply replicating the same look and feel across three tanks. I am actively researching and reading and learning and I am definitely starting to get a bit of a feeling for what species of frogs interest me (we are both biologists, and more interested in different life histories / ecological niches), and have been taking careful note of what we like and what we don't in terms of design and layout and whatnot.
This post is not intented as a "tell me what to do so I don't have to think about it" request for info, but rather as a jumping-off point and a way to learn from others' successess and mistakes 

SO: 

1) What might be some general recommendations on what to consider from Day 0 in terms of setting everything up? I will mention that we did decide to get a waterfall system for one of the three tanks. I have read and agreed with the general sentiment that water features are not essential and can be problematic, but encouraged by the integrated design of In Situ's Rio system and the vivarium itself, we are willing to take a chance.

2) If you had three vivariums to set up, what would be useful to consider in terms of how to plant them? The goal would be to try and recreate as accurately as possible a little mini-ecoystem. 

3) If you could choose three species, which would they be and why? How would you suggest designing and planting a narrow but tall vivarium accordingly?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

You might get some ideas and inspiration from this thread:









In situ/in the wild videos and photos thread!


I'd like this thread to be a place where we can link to videos and pictures of Dendrobatids in their natural habitat. The more we study the environments to which our frogs are adapted, and their behaviors in those environments, the more able we are to provide those conditions in captivity...




www.dendroboard.com





I'm personally resistant to framing things in terms of a "mini-ecosystem" both because (a) it isn't, and (b) captive husbandry doesn't simply copy nature (since that kills animals more often than not), but only takes natural environments as a starting point and adjusts based on outcomes, which are often very bad in the early days of keeping a species new to captivity. Sort of a terminological distinction, and might come off as pedantic, but it is important to understand what we're doing when we do captive husbandry. I'm not claiming you don't understand the distinction, but many novices who will read this thread don't, and are radically mislead by the 'slice of nature' approach.

That said, it is clear what you're getting at -- three distinct (in terms of looks, anyway) enclosures for three distinct (in terms of microenvironmental preferences) species. Many _Ranitomeya_ are strongly arboreal and can utilize thin branches well (as adults, anyway; new metamorphs tend to hide in leaf litter) and deal well with tiny-leafed plants. Many _Dendrobates _are adept at climbing but are more heavy bodied, so would use more bulky climbing opportunities as are provided by vivs with ramped backgrounds, and get more use out of broad leaved plants both as cover and traversable surfaces. 

As for a third category, this is harder, and might take a good amount of research to pull off. _R. sirensis _'Highland' are found (well, were; they are thought to be extirpated from the wild) in patches of bamboo. They are easy to keep, challenging to breed, and expensive (at least in the US). Some _D. leucomelas _are said to inhabit grassy forest edges, which I'm interested in learning more about but haven't found details on (there is a video in the linked thread that shows leucs being found in the forest at the edge of a grassland; I wish the videographer would have spent time in that grassy area).

I understand that having three cookie-cutter vivs might come off as lame, or somewhat boring. One way to make it more palatable (that's in the eye of the beholder, so feel free to dismiss this idea) is to build them up as complementary, like I tried to do with these:









InSitu Amazonias


I built these up to give a couple of my Ranitomeya bigger digs. Just the hardscapes: A little more close up on one; substrate is Seachem Flourite (I like this more as a viv base than in a planted tank, I think), and a top layer of calcium clay: I siliconed the ghostwood to the glass...




www.dendroboard.com


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## Ukee (Jan 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> You might get some ideas and inspiration from this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Many thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Your points re: 'slice of nature' are spot on. Indeed, what I imagined was not a literal replication of a natural habitat shrunk to scale, but more along the lines of three different tanks representing three different environments suitable for three different species. Indeed, your suggestions to consider arboreal species and terrestrial species are encouraging since this is sort of what I was imagining already. Boy, bamboo would be amazing, especially in a tall tank like the Alto, but I have absolutely no clue even growing live bamboo is even possible. Would it not kill the plant to trim it to height? I suppose horsetails might be similar but easier, but at the end of the day I have this notion (probably reflecting my ignorance!) that any vertical growing stalk would eventually tend to get _too_ tall, but would be hard to trim. I suppose using artificial stalks would be an easy workaround, but then how to vegetate the rest of the tank?
Anyway, food for thought!
Your setup is really nice by the way, VERY cool!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yes, I think trying to simulate both the bamboo grove and the grassland habitat would be challenging, and would necessitate some 'cheats' like you describe. We are pretty used to this sort of thing, though -- from using plants that aren't native to the frogs' natural habitat, to simulating natural materials with spray foam, to giving the impression of a stream by making a gravel bed that gives the impression of water (gravel isn't an entirely odd substrate, at least for limited uses). 

This 'LED-lit glass box with misting nozzles in it' thing isn't very natural to start with, so methods and materials that are functionally similar enough to satisfy the frogs' needs are generally sufficient, and are sometimes (often?) ideal.


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## Ukee (Jan 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, I think trying to simulate both the bamboo grove and the grassland habitat would be challenging, and would necessitate some 'cheats' like you describe. We are pretty used to this sort of thing, though -- from using plants that aren't native to the frogs' natural habitat, to simulating natural materials with spray foam, to giving the impression of a stream by making a gravel bed that gives the impression of water (gravel isn't an entirely odd substrate, at least for limited uses).
> 
> This 'LED-lit glass box with misting nozzles in it' thing isn't very natural to start with, so methods and materials that are functionally similar enough to satisfy the frogs' needs are generally sufficient, and are sometimes (often?) ideal.


OK, 

Following up on your earlier post, what are three species you would recommend as being well suited for a beginner?
I have been looking at _D. tinctorius_, and I am pretty sold on those. I was disappointed to learn _P. terribilis _are not legally allowed to be kept in BC


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Silly provincial rules.... 

Dendrobates leucomelas are a great choice and a nice yellow/orange colour

Dendrobates auratus are another great beginner choice


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yep, tincs, leucs, and auratus are the three classic gateway frogs. 

Since you said you have lots of time and patience, I would recommend starting with one of these species, build up the viv and keep them for some time, and see what direction you want to go from there. You might learn a lot about your preferences that could help you make the decision on the next species, and I 100% guarantee you will learn something about how you'd build the next viv differently.


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## Ukee (Jan 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yep, tincs, leucs, and auratus are the three classic gateway frogs.
> 
> Since you said you have lots of time and patience, I would recommend starting with one of these species, build up the viv and keep them for some time, and see what direction you want to go from there. You might learn a lot about your preferences that could help you make the decision on the next species, and I 100% guarantee you will learn something about how you'd build the next viv differently.


I have absolutely no doubt you are correct, but I am also aware of (not to say motivated by) the inherent economy of scale - time, money and effort - in ordering a bunch of plants at once, setting up all three tanks at once, getting everything going at once and then moving in lockstep doing three at once. No argument that you lose the benefit of experience. I hope I'm not being too ambitious. I do live in a remote area where shipping and receiving is fraught and so efficiency is attractive, and there is something about going all-in that also appeals to my sensibilities. I've always been more of a research _everything _before doing anything kind of guy (and I am well aware that still leaves the door open for a lot of mistakes along the way), and I'm hoping that's not foolish in this case. It may be I come around to take your advice as we move forward  Safe to say I am well aware I might be biting off more than I can chew.

I am trying to limit myself to easy to care for species, and so I cannot ignore _tinctorius. _I was really excited about _P. terribilis_ but the BC government won't allow imports. I am also really interested in the life history and group dynamic some of the _Ranitomeya_ species exhibit, and as group-tolerant species that also suit a vertical build, _amazonica_ and _imitator _seem like a no-brainer....
I will definitely look into _R. vanzolinii_ and _R. sirensis_ as well. You mentioned the latter in a previous post and they do seem super cool, but at the moment there is nobody in Canada offering either. That seems like it might be a temporary thing though, as both have been available in the past from more than one breeder.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Ukee said:


> I have absolutely no doubt you are correct, but I am also aware of (not to say motivated by) the inherent economy of scale - time, money and effort - in ordering a bunch of plants at once, setting up all three tanks at once, getting everything going at once and then moving in lockstep doing three at once. No argument that you lose the benefit of experience. I hope I'm not being too ambitious. I do live in a remote area where shipping and receiving is fraught and so efficiency is attractive, and there is something about going all-in that also appeals to my sensibilities. I've always been more of a research _everything _before doing anything kind of guy (and I am well aware that still leaves the door open for a lot of mistakes along the way), and I'm hoping that's not foolish in this case. It may be I come around to take your advice as we move forward  Safe to say I am well aware I might be biting off more than I can chew.
> 
> I am trying to limit myself to easy to care for species, and so I cannot ignore _tinctorius. _I was really excited about _P. terribilis_ but the BC government won't allow imports. I am also really interested in the life history and group dynamic some of the _Ranitomeya_ species exhibit, and as group-tolerant species that also suit a vertical build, _amazonica_ and _imitator _seem like a no-brainer....
> I will definitely look into _R. vanzolinii_ and _R. sirensis_ as well. You mentioned the latter in a previous post and they do seem super cool, but at the moment there is nobody in Canada offering either. That seems like it might be a temporary thing though, as both have been available in the past from more than one breeder.


R. sirensis are available quite regularly. I just sold the recent offspring from my breeding group. I've seen them for sale multiple times in the last month or so from individual breeders


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Ukee said:


> [...] Boy, bamboo would be amazing, especially in a tall tank like the Alto, but I have absolutely no clue even growing live bamboo is even possible. Would it not kill the plant to trim it to height? I suppose horsetails might be similar but easier, but at the end of the day I have this notion (probably reflecting my ignorance!) that any vertical growing stalk would eventually tend to get _too_ tall, but would be hard to trim. I suppose using artificial stalks would be an easy workaround, but then how to vegetate the rest of the tank?
> Anyway, food for thought!
> Your setup is really nice by the way, VERY cool!


Off the top of my head, Bamboo is a highly aggressive grass that grows fast and (if I recall correctly) requires very high light. There's at least one miniature variety infrequently available, the care of which care I'm not clear on, but overall it's not practical for a vivarium. Horsetails probably need it too wet to co-exist with darts well, and they're also aggressive spreaders.

You could mimic or approximate that look with either artificial stalks (many vivarists will use inert-when-cured materials to mimic nature) or vertical wood of some kind, but you'd run out of space fast in an Alto trying to scale that.

I'm just catching up on messages, I imagine others have already suggested designing around each species' needs; other than plotting out the hardscape for that, plants will dictate the power levels of your lighting. Personally I use a lot of low-light stuff and keep lighting dim, but if you placed light hogs like bromeliads up top you could turn it up a notch and have shade dwellers down below.

For frogs like leucomelas I'd probably go heavy on aroids and ferns, and build ledges into the background with angled branches for them to climb.


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