# Can I fit 4 frogs in a 30 gallon tank?



## TheCapitalist (Apr 15, 2011)

I havent bought any frogs yet but will be going to a reptile expo over the weekend and know i want to get some dendrobates but also want to make sure they are healthy and happy. I have already purchase the Exo-Terra PT2607 terrarium; 18x18x24, about 30 gallons. The question is what number of frogs can I comforatably support within this environment? I wanted to have two types of frogs in one tank for aesthetics, specifically azureus and auratus. I know morph mixing or interbreeding is frowned upon but my studies have lead me to understand azureus and auratus will not breed with each other. Also, I understand azureus live best in sexed pairs due to hostile mature females. They tend to ignore auratus because they are not sexual competors thus alleviating potential sources of stress found from inter-species co-habitation. The remaining question, if 2 azureus can live with 2 auratus, is 30 gallons enough for them to live together healthily?

If anything I have said runs contrary to your investigations please let me know. I am less than a novice and eagerly seek the knowledge of those more experienced and am truly appreciative. Here's a link to pic's of the terrarium i am buying. Thanks a bunch.

exo-terra pt2607 - Google Search


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## froggymike (Jan 11, 2010)

There are alot of people who believe species should not be mixed. Please use the search function and search mixing to get better acquainted with other peoples feelings.


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## camlov2 (Dec 8, 2010)

I agree with the above mentioned issue, but also from my limited experience I would say that those frogs would probably be better suited for a 24x18x18 and have the extra six inches in width and not height. Even with a sloped background my auratus don't seem to leave the ground of my 18x18x24, I wish I had used the other size.

I would also suggest setting up a viv in advance so that you have a chance to introduce food such as springtails and allow them to start to multiply before adding any frogs. Putting new frogs in a new viv with new plants and new substrate seems like a situation where you could have a large number of issues at one time. For example if you had a few plants die off for some reason you would have to do more work on the viv and futher stress out the frogs after their original move.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

TheCapitalist said:


> I havent bought any frogs yet but will be going to a reptile expo over the weekend and know i want to get some dendrobates but also want to make sure they are healthy and happy. I have already purchase the Exo-Terra PT2607 terrarium; 18x18x24, about 30 gallons. The question is what number of frogs can I comforatably support within this environment? I wanted to have two types of frogs in one tank for aesthetics, specifically azureus and auratus. I know morph mixing or interbreeding is frowned upon but my studies have lead me to understand azureus and auratus will not breed with each other. Also, I understand azureus live best in sexed pairs due to hostile mature females. They tend to ignore auratus because they are not sexual competors thus alleviating potential sources of stress found from inter-species co-habitation. The remaining question, if 2 azureus can live with 2 auratus, is 30 gallons enough for them to live together healthily?
> 
> If anything I have said runs contrary to your investigations please let me know. I am less than a novice and eagerly seek the knowledge of those more experienced and am truly appreciative. Here's a link to pic's of the terrarium i am buying. Thanks a bunch.
> 
> exo-terra pt2607 - Google Search



Can you share where you have seen some of this info? It seems you have been mislead in some areas:
Azureus is a type of tinctorius, and will breed with auratus. So crossbreeds are certainly possible.
You are correct about azureus doing best in pairs due to female aggression; however, aggression does not only occur over breeding competition. Regardless, as I said before, they can hybridize and so you would still have the sexual competition. 
When I first started out, and the pet shop was my only advice because I had never heard of Dendroboard or any other places like this, I kept a female auratus, an azureus, and a juvenile male leucomelas together in a 40 gallon. The auratus female was so aggressive to the azureus (and this was a sexually immature azureus, so no breeding competition) that she killed it in a week due to wrestling. That's when I started to realize that pet shops don't always know what they are talking about, did some research, and of course got them separated. 

So, I would suggest that you find one type of frog and stick with it for this tank. Either a pair of azureus (you might even luck out and get a 2.1 trio to work, but not always...), or a group of 4 auratus, or a whole different frog if you want.

Keep up the research, and any more questions don't hesitate to ask. One last thing- I know you may want to try to get different species or morphs together in one tank, it seems almost all new people do, but it is frowned upon in the hobby; properly mixed tank usually require very large vivariums, and a 30 gallon just isn't going to cut it. It's perfect for a group of the same species and morph though 
Good luck,
Bryan

*edit: I didn't even notice at first, but as camlov2 pointed out, both auratus and azureus are more terrestrial frogs, so the height would not be utilized nearly as much as floor space. Try getting one with more floor space, or, if you want to keep the tank and already have it, look into a beginner frog that uses height as well.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

It's not just the hybrid factor with two different species of darts - there's a huge stress factor as well. Both are basically terrestrial frogs and therefore, they're competing for food, space and breeding locations.

What you will end up doing is like most of us - set up multiple tanks. There is one hobbyist I saw recently who was able to set 3 tanks side-by-side and add the driftwood and plants in such a way that it looked like a single tank.

Although the azureus is a gorgeous frog, you might consider a small group of Leucs. They are very animated (compared to larger tincs) and the males have a very pleasant call. I have several kinds of tincs and imitators, but my Leuc group is my fave.

Mixing is a no-no.

kristi

oops - sorry for repeating camlov2's observations...


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Four frogs could fit, hell you could fit a few hundred if you pack them down enough.  In all seriousness though, I would look into leucomelas or galactonotus, they should be fine in a group of four and would use the height in that tank more than tincs or auratus.


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## TheCapitalist (Apr 15, 2011)

Thanks a bunch guys, your posts have been great and are exactly what I'm seeking. Now considering Leucomelas, but might just go with 2 azureus or 2 auratus. Oh and someone had asked where I read that azureus and auratus won't breed; heres the link.
Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Beginner Dart Frog Questions and Answers

Thanks again, all help is much appreciated. I'll be back with further questions in the near future I'm sure.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Sounds good. Some of that info might be a little outdated, because it still considers azureus as a separate species, even though they are now recognized as a separate morph of, but still the same species as, any other tinctorius. Some of the more appropriate mixed enclosures would probably be ones where the two species have as little contact with one another as possible, such as a thumbnail and ground dwelling species because one is terrestrial and the other arboreal for the most part. Even still, this would require a much larger tank and I can't think of any benefits for the animals. A group of leucs or auratus, or a pair of azureus should be fine. Also, I don't know if you've ever considered them, but I think (never kept them so you would need to do some more research) that anthonyi would also be an easier frog which enjoys some height.
Bryan


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Is the reptile show in white plains?


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Taken from that link you gave us: 


> (Remember though that in this regard D. tinctorius and D. azureus should be considered the same species, as they will fight and interbreed just as if they were all the same species)


Honestly, a mix tank of two different morphs of frogs is a cool idea in the aesthetic aspect. Just don't let them mate. Easy as that. Interbreeding is just a sensitive black and white topic here on Dendroboard. But interbreeding is different than simply keeping a couple different types of frogs together in a tank to make it look more "natural" or "varied." No interbreeding though whatever you do please! I recommend getting a group of one type just to avoid the flamers here . Galanctonotus, Leucomelas are hardy, group-friendly frogs.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

§lipperhead said:


> Taken from that link you gave us:
> 
> 
> Honestly, a mix tank of two different morphs of frogs is a cool idea in the aesthetic aspect. Just don't let them mate. Easy as that. Interbreeding is just a sensitive black and white topic here on Dendroboard. But interbreeding is different than simply keeping a couple different types of frogs together in a tank to make it look more "natural" or "varied." No interbreeding though whatever you do please! I recommend getting a group of one type just to avoid the flamers here . Galanctonotus, Leucomelas are hardy, group-friendly frogs.


I'm not quite sure what you are saying here? How is it more "natural" to keep different types of frogs together, since in nature they would not be together? The reason people don't mix is because it is not natural and can lead to things like hybrids or crossbreeds (not natural!) The info from the link you quoted is out of date; azureus are not considered a type of the tinctorius. Therefore, breeding an azureus with any other locale of tinctorius would be outcrossing, not hybridizing because it is still within the same species.
And aside from the issue of mixing because of breeding, I think in this case their is a risk of aggression, especially between female azureus and auratus, which is why I advise a group or pair of a the same species and morph.
Bryan


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I'm not quite sure what you are saying here? How is it more "natural" to keep different types of frogs together, since in nature they would not be together? The reason people don't mix is because it is not natural and can lead to things like hybrids or crossbreeds (not natural!)


Do average people going to these zoos and pet stores know this though? Course not. The mixing in a rainforest exhibit is fake, an illusion, to attract eyes and attentions of people who may think that these animals live amongst each other in all corners of the amazon. I guess natural wasn't the right word.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi "The Capitalist",

I think you would really enjoy a nice pair of Azureus tinctorius in this size vivarium (you could also have a group of two males and one female, though they tend to breed better in pairs). They are a large, very bold frog and will always be out looking for food (and since you bring the food, they will be looking for you). Their color is so striking that you won't miss having another species in the tank. This size viv will give you room to grow a variety of plants and these will give you some nice interest as well.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby, Richard.


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## mr.marvin (Apr 5, 2011)

To the Capitalist:

I am new to this hobby also. I have the Zoo Med tank 18 X 18 X 24. Same size as your tank just has a single door. I have four Leucs in it and they fit just fine. They are always moving around the tank and I am always seeing them watching me. I have two that have started calling. They sound kind of like a canary. I really like these leucs and recommend you try them. It is really up to you if you want to try mixing them.
Thanks
Marvin


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## NVfrogger (Apr 10, 2011)

I love the leucs I used to have 5 in a 55 gal tank I would put my hand in the tank and they would hop right to me I could even put my hand on the floor and put some FF's in it and they would hop on my hand and eat. I love the their call as well.


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