# How durable are tadpoles?



## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

This morning was the first day of rain for almost a week, and also the first time I've spotted the male frog come by ever since I witnessed courting two weeks ago. I was right in thinking there should be tadpoles by now, seeing a very tiny squiggling tadpole on its back.

I just came back from class 30min ago to find the tadpole in none of the water dishes/containers I've left out for potential tadpoles. What I instead found was the male frog again with what I presume may be another tadpole. In the past I've seen more tadpoles on its back than tadpoles in my water dishes; so, this time I decided to retrieve the tadpole with a fish net, and not startle the parent too much.

Not a very smart move I'm sure many of you may think, but it was an impulse action. A long story short, I managed to get the tadpole from its back, and placed it into a small container of R/O water. What I am worried about is if in the process of nudging the tadpole into the container I may have squished a part of it with my gigantic human finger.

The tadpole is swimming and eating (fish flake), but every few bursts of swimming it will stop (as all my tadpoles before have done) and turn sideways like one side of its body is more buoyant (which I've never seen before). The only thing I've seen do this is a fish about to die. Are tadpoles pretty hardy? I understand I am 10,000x its size, but is this forced move something it can overcome? Could lack of oxygen (from being on the male's back too long) cause it harm as well?

Other than it turning sideways or partially upside-down, it swims fine and seems to like the food. Any ideas anyone?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

All you can do is watch and hope at this point, Mitch. I don't think Daddy would still be transporting them if it was doomed so if it was damaged, it was probably your finger. Next time, if you're going to pull, you should pull them as eggs. If you want to let the parents transport, the best thing you can do for them is to supply more pools than they can use. Give them some choice by supplying different types/sizes of pools.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> All you can do is watch and hope at this point, Mitch. I don't think Daddy would still be transporting them if it was doomed so if it was damaged, it was probably your finger. Next time, if you're going to pull, you should pull them as eggs. If you want to let the parents transport, the best thing you can do for them is to supply more pools than they can use. Give them some choice by supplying different types/sizes of pools.


Thanks Pumilo. I'm monitoring every once in a while now. It swims strongly and has already eaten quite a bit of the fish flake, but at rest it rests on its side. It would probably be safe to say if it lasts the night it should do fine -- so I'm crossing my fingers I didn't do too much harm.

The funny thing is I've already put pools of water in various sizes all over the house, and yet nothing. I would typically not worry if I didn't get the tadpoles, but I realized the other day that in the areas they are most likely to be dropped, no rain for several days means the natural pools of water dry up.

I don't exactly know where their eggs are laid, but I know where the parents hide most often; the areas where I left water out. I'll try increasing the amount of containers, and hope some tadpoles will be dropped off in there.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Tadpoles are more durable than they look.

Do not use Reverse Osmosis water unless you treat it and condition it......it's too pure.

Use bottle grocery store spring water....local clean stream water....rain water.....but I would not use RO water.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Tadpoles are more durable than they look.
> 
> Do not use Reverse Osmosis water unless you treat it and condition it......it's too pure.
> 
> Use bottle grocery store spring water....local clean stream water....rain water.....but I would not use RO water.


Oh okay, great to know. I'll add rain water to the container then to counteract the R/O water; I don't want to transfer it again so I'll just add more to it.

Upon a closer look, it seems as though there is a little white spot (I want to say a bruise?) on the side it leans on. Hopefully it can heal up soon.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are anecdotal reports of males carrying tadpoles for up to three days in enclosures before depositing the tadpoles. 

There are scientific analysis out there that doesn't support a lot of the claims about RO/DI water being harmful that are prevalent in the hobby... It does not kill them or rob them of ions as it turns out the tadpoles can scavenge the ions right back out of the water. It does represent a small stress as it requires a metabolic energy expenditure but nothing like has been claimed for years now. 
There is a good discussion on it in Ecological and Environmental Physiology of Amphibians;
Amazon.com: Ecological and Environmental Physiology of Amphibians (Environmental & Ecological Physiology) (9780198570325): Stan Hillman, Philip Withers, Robert Drewes, Stan Hillyard: Books

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Good things to add to RO water for balance would be:

Safe soil
Rocks
Leaves - especially Indian Almond

RO water is expensive and causes a lot of waste water to produce as well.

It's just easier, cheaper and arguably safer to use good quality spring water for our hobby purposes.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Good things to add to RO water for balance would be:
> 
> Safe soil
> Rocks
> ...


Hmm, perhaps my understanding of what R/O water is, is incorrect. I have a little bottle of a liquid that apparently removes all chlorine along with supposed bad minerals from the water. Is the resulting water not R/O?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

crzsnwbdr said:


> Hmm, perhaps my understanding of what R/O water is, is incorrect. I have a little bottle of a liquid that apparently removes all chlorine along with supposed bad minerals from the water. Is the resulting water not R/O?


 
No....you only have dechlorinated water by using that product.

Do a google search on "Reverse Osmosis".....it is the second most pure type of water short of Distillation.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> No....you only have dechlorinated water by using that product.
> 
> Do a google search on "Reverse Osmosis".....it is the second most pure type of water short of Distillation.


Ahh, interesting. I thought R/O was just a common term tossed around for the type of water typical with frogs. 

R/O is not necessary, is it? I was told that the bottle of dechlorination liquid I use to treat the water would suffice for my pets.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I have used not only RO water, but it goes through a deionizer also. This makes it much purer than just RO water on its own. I have morphed out LOTS of tads from Luecs and tincs to thumbs...so many thumbs! I boil oak leaves in it till it is the color of light iced tea. I have been successful enough that I would never try anything else. Relax! I'm not saying nothing else works. We all have our favorite methods. But RO water works fine by me!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Pumilo said:


> I have used not only RO water, but it goes through a deionizer also. This makes it much purer than just RO water on its own. I have morphed out LOTS of tads from Luecs and tincs to thumbs...so many thumbs! I boil oak leaves in it till it is the color of light iced tea. I have been successful enough that I would never try anything else. Relax! I'm not saying nothing else works. We all have our favorite methods. But RO water works fine by me!


 
Do you ever use straight RO water or do you always add leaves?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

crzsnwbdr said:


> Ahh, interesting. I thought R/O was just a common term tossed around for the type of water typical with frogs.
> 
> R/O is not necessary, is it? I was told that the bottle of dechlorination liquid I use to treat the water would suffice for my pets.


Do a google search for RO....no...it's not nessa.

The bottle of stuff you have is not either. Just let your tap water sit uncovered for 30 or so hours and the chlorine will evaporate.

Pets? You mean like dogs and cats?


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I have used not only RO water, but it goes through a deionizer also. This makes it much purer than just RO water on its own. I have morphed out LOTS of tads from Luecs and tincs to thumbs...so many thumbs! I boil oak leaves in it till it is the color of light iced tea. I have been successful enough that I would never try anything else. Relax! I'm not saying nothing else works. We all have our favorite methods. But RO water works fine by me!


Hmm, I have two questions. We don't have oak trees here, so are there any other types of leaves that would work as well? I recall seeing a picture in the random homepage feed of a row of tadpole cups with a leaf in each and the water was light brown; I thought that was very interesting. Do they eat the leaf as it breaks down or something?

With all of my earlier tadpoles, I just gave them a rock with algae on it from the stream and fish flakes every other day. I didn't do anything to the water (it was right from the hose) and only added more when necessary. They all sat in the shade but still grew algae on the walls from indirect sunlight, which they then ate.

My second question is, what are thumbs? I hear that term a lot, and if I had to guess I'd say those are the same as froglets..?


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Do a google search for RO....no...it's not nessa.
> 
> The bottle of stuff you have is not either. Just let your tap water sit uncovered for 30 or so hours and the chlorine will evaporate.
> 
> Pets? You mean like dogs and cats?


Pets = frogs.


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## DizzyD (Sep 19, 2006)

Thumbs=thumbnail sized frogs, imitators etc. Good luck w/ those tads!


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

DizzyD said:


> Thumbs=thumbnail sized frogs, imitators etc. Good luck w/ those tads!


Thanks! It's already looking 100% better. It no longer resting on its side and swims without trouble. Hopefully I'll get more tadpoles soon.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Tadpoles are more durable than they look.
> 
> Do not use Reverse Osmosis water unless you treat it and condition it......it's too pure.
> 
> Use bottle grocery store spring water....local clean stream water....rain water.....but I would not use RO water.


A large number of the "spring water" brands sold in stores are nothing more than bottled tap waters. If you are using "spring water", I would suggest trying aged dechlorinated tap water instead as that is going to be signficantly less expensive than springwater. 

A lot of us use RO water in the misting and sprayers as the lack of dissolved minerals reduces the problems of clogged mist heads/water spots on the glass. If you are really concerned about lack of ions for the tadpoles, there are products out there like RO right that can be added to the water to provide the exact minerals you want in the water

There is waste water from a RO system but the end cost depending on your water pressure and filter can run as high as 35 cents a gallon depending on how elaborate a system you use and whether or not a plumber is involved, and municiple water costs but it is usually less. So overall it does not tend to be as expensive as purchased spring water

As for the purity comments, see my comments above on ion loss/uptake in tadpoles. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Do you ever use straight RO water or do you always add leaves?


I always add leaves. Recently, however, I read that frogs that deposit eggs in pools on the ground need water with more tannins. Arboreal frogs that deposit in Broms don't need the tannins. They are evolved to lay in very pure pools. It makes sense. What does it do in rainforests? It rains! Rain is generally very pure (unless you are in the city where it picks up air pollutants). It is pure because it is "distilled" by nature. If it rains virtually every day, there is a constant source of ultra pure water running through those broms.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Do a google search for RO....no...it's not nessa.
> 
> Just let your tap water sit uncovered for 30 or so hours and the chlorine will evaporate.


This certainly USED to be true. However, water companies no longer use JUST plain old chlorine. They are now using chloromines. Chloromines will NOT evaporate. They can only be eliminated with charcoal purification or with a dechlorinating product. I know this from working with reef tanks for the last 10 years under the name Colorado Coral Farms. We need ultra purified water there. That is also why my RO filter uses a deionizer.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

crzsnwbdr said:


> Hmm, I have two questions. We don't have oak trees here, so are there any other types of leaves that would work as well? I recall seeing a picture in the random homepage feed of a row of tadpole cups with a leaf in each and the water was light brown; I thought that was very interesting. Do they eat the leaf as it breaks down or something?
> 
> With all of my earlier tadpoles, I just gave them a rock with algae on it from the stream and fish flakes every other day. I didn't do anything to the water (it was right from the hose) and only added more when necessary. They all sat in the shade but still grew algae on the walls from indirect sunlight, which they then ate.
> 
> My second question is, what are thumbs? I hear that term a lot, and if I had to guess I'd say those are the same as froglets..?


I'm sure there are probably other workable leaves but I have only used oak so I cannot comment. Fall is coming and I have my own oak tree. I could probably ship you some dirt cheap after the leaves fall. Lemme know in a PM if you need some.

I did my tads in cups with a leaf but I did boil them into tea first. The leaf in the cup does break down slowly with time. I don't believe the tads eat it but they nibble algae off of it. I put it in mostly for cover so they feel more secure.

Thumbs are Thumbnail frogs in the Ranitomeya family. These are my favorite frogs cuz "They're cut when they're tiny"! These frogs are only about the size of your thumbnail when fully grown (a little bigger), thus, the name thumbs or thumbnails. Here is a pic of one of mine.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Pumilo said:


> I always add leaves. Recently, however, I read that frogs that deposit eggs in pools on the ground need water with more tannins. Arboreal frogs that deposit in Broms don't need the tannins. They are evolved to lay in very pure pools. It makes sense. What does it do in rainforests? It rains! Rain is generally very pure (unless you are in the city where it picks up air pollutants). It is pure because it is "distilled" by nature. If it rains virtually every day, there is a constant source of ultra pure water running through those broms.


"Be careful with rainwater. Have you tested yours for nitrate? Rainwater even in pristine areas can contain a lot of nitrogen which can spell trouble. As was mentioned earlier, pure water is a wonderful solvent and rain picks up all kinds of stuff while it is in the atmosphere. It is not pure distilled water as many people think. You can check out the National Atmospheric Deposition Program site to look at data from various research stations around the US.

If you don't know the composition of your rainwater, it should be run through some kind of biological filtration before use to remove nutrients from it. It is probably fine to use for misting since the viv will biologically filter water. But I wouldn't use it untreated for tadpole water. "

- Brent Brock
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...397-misting-ro-vs-tap-water-2.html#post221706

"A RO unit typically takes out 90-95% of the total dissolved solids out of the water that is treated. Depending on the carbon filters used in conjunction with the RO, things like volatile organic chemicals (VOC's) can also be removed. The quality of RO water can vary due to the state of the raw water being filtered; the amount of water pressure operates the RO, age of the membrane, and other variables to a lesser extent. If your raw water has a hardness of over 10 gpg (grains per gallon), pretreatment with a water softener will both improve performance, and extend the life of the membrane greatly."

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...397-misting-ro-vs-tap-water-2.html#post221786


As for rainwater, Mercury and Sulfuric acid are other chemicals that can come down from the skies in rain. I don't know how many of these compounds TDS accounts for so I can't comment on how TDS numbers compare with actual safety of the water."

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...397-misting-ro-vs-tap-water-2.html#post221831

True, rainwater can contain some bad stuff depending on where you live. I've never specifically checked for mercury or nitrate content in rainwater from the Boston area"

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...397-misting-ro-vs-tap-water-2.html#post221878

for example, but I can guess it may contain some things that are less than desirable". 

I wouldn't be too quick to call the "brom run-off from rainwater" *ultra pure*. The second it hits leaves, stems, flowers ect, it is collecting all the while, not to mention the atmospheric collection.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I'm sure there are probably other workable leaves but I have only used oak so I cannot comment. Fall is coming and I have my own oak tree. I could probably ship you some dirt cheap after the leaves fall. Lemme know in a PM if you need some.
> 
> I did my tads in cups with a leaf but I did boil them into tea first. The leaf in the cup does break down slowly with time. I don't believe the tads eat it but they nibble algae off of it. I put it in mostly for cover so they feel more secure.


Is cover important for tadpoles as much as it is for a morphed out frog(let)? I used a small rock (with algae) for each of my tadpoles but I most often found them eating/resting on the walls of the container.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

crzsnwbdr said:


> Is cover important for tadpoles as much as it is for a morphed out frog(let)? I used a small rock (with algae) for each of my tadpoles but I most often found them eating/resting on the walls of the container.


No, it's not nearly as important for Tads as for froglets but it worked for me.

Also, I don't use rainwater. Never have. My RO/DI water reads dead zero on a TDS tester. I am aware that todays rainwater is not so pure. But I'm of the belief that much of what rain picks up today is from Mankind mucking around with things. That is a fairly recent development in the history of the world. I still believe that brom grown tads have evolved (or been designed by God) to use a purer source of water than tads in pools on the ground. If you look at pumilio for example, I believe that a large percentage of people are using RO water in their misting systems. They mist every day. That's bound to be a purer water than tads deposited in pools on the ground.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Also, I don't use rainwater. Never have. My RO/DI water reads dead zero on a TDS tester. I am aware that todays rainwater is not so pure. But I'm of the belief that much of what rain picks up today is from Mankind mucking around with things. That is a fairly recent development in the history of the world. I still believe that brom grown tads have evolved (or been designed by God) to use a purer source of water than tads in pools on the ground. If you look at pumilio for example, I believe that a large percentage of people are using RO water in their misting systems. They mist every day. That's bound to be a purer water than tads deposited in pools on the ground.


Typically neither do I; in the confusion of what R/O water is I just added a few tablespoons of what rain water I could pour in. I usually just use water from the garden hose, and that has done just fine in the past. Now I do the same _with_ the addition of the dechlorination liquid.

Update: the tadpole looks great now, and it devours the fish flakes I put in there. How much should I feed it a day/week?

I saw papa-frog hopping around again this morning (three days in a row it has rained) with another squiggling tadpole on its back. I just finished with checking all of the water containers and it's no where to be found. Is there any tips on making the containers more appealing? I have the majority in the shaded areas, and a few which do get sunlight; they're all different sizes/shapes/heights.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry Mitch, I'm of little use to you there. I'm an egg puller. I always pulled the eggs and raised them myself. I guess all I can say is experiment with different colors, shapes and sizes. Are you just setting them on the ground or are you digging a small hole to put them in so that the lip is level with the ground? You might try that.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Sorry Mitch, I'm of little use to you there. I'm an egg puller. I always pulled the eggs and raised them myself. I guess all I can say is experiment with different colors, shapes and sizes. Are you just setting them on the ground or are you digging a small hole to put them in so that the lip is level with the ground? You might try that.


Haha, I'm not one for tearing up the yard.. so I am mainly using shallow (5~6" tall) tuberware containers and putting them on the ground and some elevated where I spot the parents hopping around most. Also, the depth of water is different in each one, from 1~3".

From earlier clutches, each of the tadpoles were dropped in buckets (1.5~2ft tall) or in a container elevated by concrete blocks. I never touched those original containers and left them where they were before in hopes the frogs will drop them in there agian.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Pretty cool Mitch.

More pics of your "frog yard" please !


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

As Phil has already discovered, this thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/24397-misting-ro-vs-tap-water.html
is a very good conversation of tap vs R/O vs rainwater for use with our anuran captives.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Pretty cool Mitch.
> 
> More pics of your "frog yard" please !


Hahaha, it'd be my pleasure! ^^

I like that you used quotations for my "frog yard", because I'm sure you already know I don't have much of a yard as I do cemented areas. 

I decided to circle the areas in the photos where the frogs hide most often. As you will see, those are also the spots where the water buckets are.

Enjoy!


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Ha, that's awesome.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I think a lot of people are gonnnna beee envious.

I got to see Costa Rican Auratus outside my room everyday, crawling around just like that.

Very cool.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I eventually want to build an enclosed courtyard, that's visible on all sides through big windows, and have a ton of auratus free-roaming around a small stream. 

At the botany greenhouse at MSU, several years ago, we had free-range Panamanian auratus breeding. They eventually disappeared - due to fertilizers or collection, we don't know.


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## crzsnwbdr (Sep 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> I think a lot of people are gonnnna beee envious.
> 
> I got to see Costa Rican Auratus outside my room everyday, crawling around just like that.
> 
> Very cool.


Haha, really? I do consider myself lucky -- they're the pets I don't need to take care of but get all the enjoyment from watching.  The only thing is, unlike you I only get to see them 25~50% of the days it rains, and almost never when it doesn't. But still, they're pretty awesome. 



zBrinks said:


> I eventually want to build an enclosed courtyard, that's visible on all sides through big windows, and have a ton of auratus free-roaming around a small stream.
> 
> At the botany greenhouse at MSU, several years ago, we had free-range Panamanian auratus breeding. They eventually disappeared - due to fertilizers or collection, we don't know.


That sounds ridiculously cool! In what shape and dimensions are you thinking of building this? Details, details! Haha, the first thing that came to my mind was a giant plexiglass dome that encased a portion of a stream run-off in the backyard or something. Either way, that would be a very cool (and arduous) build.


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