# Blue-Grey Rash on R. fantastica reticulated



## Nichol_Bolas (Jun 1, 2019)

Looking for some collective knowledge - we just moved our R. fantastica reticulated into a new viv yesterday. The Viv has been grown in for about 4 months with no issue. Our female started exhibiting this blue-grey rash/splotch this morning on her butt and hind legs.

Any ideas what it is? We've moved her to a quarantine box and are hoping it resolves.

Thanks


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Pictures would almost certainly be very helpful (load them to a pic-sharing site and then post a link here).


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## Nichol_Bolas (Jun 1, 2019)

Thank you! I couldn't find a direct way to post it.
https://pin.it/4Gc0iQo


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## Nichol_Bolas (Jun 1, 2019)

Her husband hasn't exhibited any rash, but we've got him isolated too, just in case.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Is the patch at all fuzzy?

Filling out the questionnaire that Philsuma posted recently would help, along with any additional information that you might think relevant, like what was their enclosure before moving them into the new viv:

Basic Frog Problem Questionnaire Template:

answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste)

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

2. What are your Temperatures -Day and Night - Highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?

3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using ? Describe your tank/enclosure and it's lid or top.

4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?

5. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ?

6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ?

7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays ect near the tank ?

8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## Nichol_Bolas (Jun 1, 2019)

The patch doesn't look fuzzy, more chalky? We moved them out of their previous house because there was a fair bit of mold growing in it. It's possible she already had the condition, but hadn't exhibited any change in behavior.

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

R. fantastica "reticulated". We've had them for about 7 months ago from a breeder who was retiring. We bought a proven trio, although had some drama and separated the other female (we got her a man, so we now have two breeding pairs)

2. What are your Temperatures -Day and Night - Highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?
Lights are elevated LEDs, almost no heat. Highs for winter are about 74-76, lows at night are 69.

3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using ? Describe your tank/enclosure and it's lid or top.

The new viv is slightly more humid than our others, probably 85-90%. We live in New Mexico, so it's hard to get above 75-80%.

4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?

We use a mix of caretaker springs and D. melanogaster. We dust with 
-ZooMed repticalcium +D3 2x/week, 
and Rep-Cal herptivite with beta carotene 1x/week

5. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ?

Another R. fantastica, her mate. The new viv hadn't had any frogs in it before, just 3 months of springs.

6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ?

She stopped laying 5 months ago because the other female was stressing/attacking her. She hasn't laid again, but she has petted the male frequently in the last 2 months. No breeding activity.

7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays ect near the tank ?

No. We pretty much never touch them. Moving them likely stressed them a bit. We had to use a small amount of bug spray 3 months ago about 25ft away. We haven't noted any issues with any of our frogs because of it.

8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.

I'll get some more pictures up and include a link.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

In hospital situ for this frog, I can guarantee you that *wetter is not better.* 

Its a very strategic and fine line of contact moisture with these kinds of issues, too much unescapable water absorption as the skin loses normal homeostasis and cell death occurs - warmth and paper towel pads folded, moistened, pressed of excess water and applied as perch pads. If your quarantine is natural than do the same with closely monitored NZ lumps of moss. With excess water squeezed out. 

It must not be uniformly wet. Options to get out of too much moisture contact is vital.

With active frogs I have usually made the entire contact situ at the safe end of Less Moist but it would be too controversial and irresponsible to describe without into great length.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sorry you are having these problems. I have very little experience with frog ailments, so I won't comment. You are getting good advice already. However, on a different note, if it was me, I would upgrade to Repashy supplements. Many of us use them and trust them. I don't think you will find too many experienced dart frog keepers using the supplements you are using for dart frogs. Also, store them in the refrigerator and replace them every 6 months. I hope your little froggy gets better ASAP.

Mark


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

There actually has been an issue observed in your frogs since using what you calling a "small amount of bug spray" which really cannot be addressed as described, and cant be deleted as a non issue of exposure. 

If you have fragile, physiologically permeable fauna in household it means "bug control" must be mitigated to topical, less toxic means.

Just a general of thumb, that is followed in mindful animal professional and private format.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Piggybacking on the bug spray comment; 

Very broadly speaking, in terms of in-home "bug sprays" there are 2 categories: quick kill and longer term control. Quick kill is the aerosolized stuff that drops bugs dead on the spot but has little lingering effect. The aerosolization is the problematic aspect, obviously, as it enters the air and can affect a larger area than intended.

The longer lasting stuff usually is mixed into a garden sprayer with water and is dispensed with lower pressure. There is less aerosolization (but some), and the problematic aspect is that it does not kill instantly (because it is microencapsulated or other such treatment to make it last a long time). A fly could walk through the area well after it was applied and walk back into a vivarium where it gets consumed by a frog. 

Again, speaking very broadly, poisons intended to kill arthropods have lesser effects on different types of animals. But fish and amphibians are some of the most susceptible. 

Your bug spray MAY not be the culprit here, but I think the topic is worth the discussion.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Broseph said:


> Your bug spray MAY not be the culprit here, but I think the topic is worth the discussion.


Broseph, do you know of any household pesticides that might remotely be suspected to cause the symptoms presented? I don't, but it sounds like you might, and I'd be interested to know. 

I'm also curious about the fly walking back into the viv from 25 feet away. Not really the mechanics of that (although, really, what are the odds?) but the picking up of a harmful dose of pesticide. AFAIK, the LD50 of many pesticides is far lower for target organisms than for most non-target organisms (trout are the exception, I recall); adding that to the relative difference in mass between a frog and FF (1000 times, give or take? my scale doesn't work here) I'm not sure that there's a risk here. I've done the math in the past for reptiles (the issue comes up sometimes when people are worried about feeding WC bugs, and though I wouldn't do it personally it isn't because of pesicides), and the dosage a live bug could carry simply doesn't pose a risk.

None of this is me claiming that bug sprays in the house are completely safe, though I've sprayed the carpet in my 100-animal reptile room with permethrin more than once and did not experience any effects on my captives (reptiles, amphibians, rodents, insects) that I am aware of.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I dont think the bug spray (whatever it is) caused the "symptoms".

I do think that novel chemical exposures, especially those that target the physiology of other organisms, have great propensity to impact immune system of other organisms, untargeted by the product.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Broseph, do you know of any household pesticides that might remotely be suspected to cause the symptoms presented? I don't, but it sounds like you might, and I'd be interested to know.


No. Most of the pesticides I know of are neurotoxic. The direction the thread was going just seemed like a good opportunity to mention it. I really wish I could be of more help to OP, so I'm probably babbling on about bug spray to ease my sympathy pains. 



> I'm also curious about the fly walking back into the viv from 25 feet away. Not really the mechanics of that (although, really, what are the odds?) but the picking up of a harmful dose of pesticide. AFAIK, the LD50 of many pesticides is far lower for target organisms than for most non-target organisms (trout are the exception, I recall); adding that to the relative difference in mass between a frog and FF (1000 times, give or take? my scale doesn't work here) I'm not sure that there's a risk here. I've done the math in the past for reptiles (the issue comes up sometimes when people are worried about feeding WC bugs, and though I wouldn't do it personally it isn't because of pesicides), and the dosage a live bug could carry simply doesn't pose a risk.


Yeah... I missed the "25 feet away" part. That is definitely a long journey for a fruit fly. Though I've found plenty of flightless fruit flies wandering pretty far from my frog room. The longer acting poisons (that we used back when I killed bugs for a living) can take hours to kill. But yeah, the dose that could travel back into a vivarium would be tiny, ESPECIALLY considering the LD50 for non-target organisms. Though I couldn't speak to what amount would be enough where we could make a rule-of-thumb recommendation. 



> None of this is me claiming that bug sprays in the house are completely safe, though I've sprayed the carpet in my 100-animal reptile room with permethrin more than once and did not experience any effects on my captives (reptiles, amphibians, rodents, insects) that I am aware of.


I too have done crack and crevice treatments in the frog room with permethrins. Mostly to stop the unwanted bugs that manage to get in my house from getting into the vivs. So that's at least 2 anecdotal cases of no apparent harm being observed.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Can you post a good photo of the vivarium and the substrate.


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