# New guy here, Snakes in a viv? couple questions



## Railrider1920 (Nov 12, 2016)

Hi Folks,
My wife and I were thinking about getting a Brazilian rainbow boa, which requires higher humidity than most snakes. She doesn't want just a plain ol tank, she wants people to walk up and say "oh wow, that's a cool tank, oh crap, theres a snake in there". After looking around and seeing pics of vivariums and showing them to her, thats what she wants. I had asked a rainbow boa breeder about doing this and she basically said yes, use a false bottom, ABG type substrate then directed me here. 

I've been lurking for almost 2 weeks now researching vivs and how to make them. Wow, some of the vivs I've seen here are beautiful. Snake or not, I'm going to make one lol.

A few questions for you folks....
Anyone here keep a snake in a viv? What type do you keep? Any pros or cons about keeping one in a viv?

If you keep a snake, how do you heat the viv while keeping the humidity high?

A false bottom or hydro balls: This area is just for collecting excess water from the misting of the tank. Then it is drained out the bottom or taken out with a turkey baster or equivalent type thing. Is this correct?

While reading posts, I have seen a few where I thought, wow, why didn't I think of that and wanted to say thanks. How do I do that so that is shows up at the bottom of the post?

Thanks for any help offered,
Rob


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## Basti (Nov 26, 2016)

I'm interested in this as well. Building my own viv at the moment and will potentially house a snake in there at some point. Since I'm in Australia I can't have exotics though.


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## FoliaFatalis (Nov 11, 2016)

Ive seen people with green tree pythons in vivs as well. Heating would be the tricky part, but I think a heat lamp near the top away from any real plants might work, you could also try and aquarium heater in the water level or a heating pad under the tank to keep the water in the bottom was which would heat the whole tank.

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## mudbug (Mar 31, 2016)

The plants will need to be really sturdy.

I'm not sure what to tell you about substrate/false bottom. Most ground dwelling snakes are somewhat fossorial. They will dig into the substrate and uproot plants. Creating some type of natural hides will probably reduce or prevent the digging. You may have to experiment with this. 

For heat look into radiant heat panels, heat tape and heating pads for reptiles. I wouldn't use an aquarium heater under the false bottom. 

I did a vivarium for an Emerald Tree Boa it turned out really nice. But ETB's are arboreal so digging in the substrate was not a problem. Sturdy plants were not hard to find, but finding sturdy plants that would fit in the vivarium were. 

Good luck it should be a fun project. Let us know how it turns out.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

The snakes defacate more than little frogs so the vivarium will need to be designed to be cleaned more often. If there is a water feature, snake turds can really muck it up.


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## FoliaFatalis (Nov 11, 2016)

I would def not do a water feature, my snakes poop maybe once a week at most, so it should be hard to clean, an orchid bark bottom would make it easy.

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## FoliaFatalis (Nov 11, 2016)

*shouldn't be hard to clean 

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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

There is a "Post Reply" button at the bottom of the thread. Click on it and it will open a dialog box for you to add your comments.


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## Lukehartung99 (Aug 27, 2016)

Hey, so if you like the vivarium look and need humidity, you are in luck. If you keep it in room temp with a light it should have no issue maintaining up to 80% humidity because of the live plants and moist substrate. 
Perhaps you can look into Asian vine snakes, they are irregular looking but would probably do well in a more humid vivarium. 



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## Lukehartung99 (Aug 27, 2016)

Also, if you had isopods and/or springtails, and plants in the tank, clean up should be simpler, right? 




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## mtnwander (Nov 10, 2016)

I wouldn't bother with a false bottom since you'll be removing a significant portion of the soil frequently anyway. Plants in flower pots would make it easier to move them around as needed but you'd also have the problem of them getting trampled by the boa. In my experience with a juvi rainbow boa they love to climb at night when they do become active. I'd suggest a bed of orchid bark and sphagnum moss with a safe powered heat pad underneath the glass (some get too hot and can burn) with hides on the cool and hot end, so that it can choose freely between them during the day and then use a ceramic heater over a log for some arboreal basking at night. If you leave the potted plants in more open areas it might not be so tempted to curl up in them and smash them down so much, then use ficus pumila on a back wall where the snake will be less tempted to try to climb. Lots of artificial vines, logs to climb and hide amongst and some realistic looking artificial plants in the high trafficked spots should make for a fairly visually appealing setup. Also live floating plants in a large pond area would likely fair well.


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## Railrider1920 (Nov 12, 2016)

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this post for a few days. Life happened and got in my way.......
Thanks to everyone that replied.

*Lukehartung99*, the pods in the soil might help with some things I miss, but like *oldlady25715* mentioned, clean up will mostly be by hand. Snake poop can be big and messy. Too much for the pods to clean up all of it. My wife is pretty set on a BRB.

Wont be having a water feature so to speak. Probably just a ceramic bowl. I like the idea of having the plants in pots to move them around if necessary. *mtnwander*, what type of floating plants are you thinking of? sounds interesting



chillplants said:


> There is a "Post Reply" button at the bottom of the thread. Click on it and it will open a dialog box for you to add your comments.


Yes that will do the trick, but not exactly what I meant.
If you go to the following thread and scroll to the bottom you will see a place where it says the following 10 users say thanks for this useful post. That is what I meant. I guess I should have posted that in a different forum.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/49265-ranitomeya-variabilis-intermediate.html

Thanks again everyone. Got some ideas. I probably wont be starting this until after the new year, hopefully have it set up by early spring at the latest.
Rob


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Wait a sec--a naturalistic vivarium can work, with a clean up crew, if we observe the KISS principle:

1) Does it have to be a rainbow boa? If so, cool, then:
2) large enclosure, preferably front-opening;
3) sturdy branches;
4) aroids for the back;
5) Maybe a cissus vine;
6) geogenanthus?
7) larger bromeliads, mounted.
8) Just lose the $#@! idea of small bromeliads, gesneriads, ferns, etc; 
8) Heating is easy--a uth on the back wall OR a heat cable 24/7; gentle heat, just to raise above room temperature and a basking lamp on one side of the enclosure, opposite side of the water basin. Turn lights off at night! 

In a huge tank, just remove the waste and let the crew handle the residue.

I believe you should be able to google pics of large snake vivaria, no?


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Wait a sec--a naturalistic vivarium can work, with a clean up crew, if we observe the KISS principle:

1) Does it have to be a rainbow boa? If so, cool, then:
2) large enclosure, preferably front-opening;
3) sturdy branches;
4) aroids for the back;
5) Maybe a cissus vine;
6) geogenanthus?
7) larger bromeliads, mounted.
8) Just lose the $#@! idea of small bromeliads, gesneriads, ferns, etc; 
8) Heating is easy--a uth on the back wall OR a heat cable 24/7; gentle heat, just to raise above room temperature and a basking lamp on one side of the enclosure, opposite side of the water basin. Turn lights off at night! 

In a huge tank, just remove the waste and let the crew handle the residue.

I believe you should be able to google pics of large snake vivaria, no?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> In a huge tank, just remove the waste and let the crew handle the residue.
> 
> I believe you should be able to google pics of large snake vivaria, no?



People overestimate the ability of the isopods and springtails to remove residues like urates etc. Very small amounts of residue may be cleaned up but the only reason the arthropods would target it is if they were nitrogen starved. 

Urates can easily stain porous materials so make them easy to remove and as noted above plants tend to get trashed unless they are very sturdy so you want to be able to remove them as needed. 

The water feature comment is right on target with respect to the nutrient overload, when I dealt with an exhibit with emerald treeboas over a 65 gallon water feature one defecation was sufficient to put the nitrite levels off the test kit chart within several hours despite a large biofilter. This happens because there isn't sufficient levels of bacteria in the biofilter to handle the sudden nutrient influx. 

A false bottom isn't a bad idea as you want to keep the humidity up but the saturation of the substrate at a minimum for a number of reasons such as portions of the substrate going anaerobic or being so wet it is conducive to skin issues. 

Another possible heating method is to include a hollow perch with a heating cable through the perch attached to a thermostat. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Railrider1920 (Nov 12, 2016)

Groundhog said:


> Wait a sec--a naturalistic vivarium can work, with a clean up crew, if we observe the KISS principle:
> 
> 1) Does it have to be a rainbow boa? If so, cool, then:
> 2) large enclosure, preferably front-opening;
> ...


Thanks foe the suggestions on plants. I'll take a look at them when the time comes. Right now I have no idea what they are lol. I don't really know about plants, but I'm sure I'll be learning. I will definitely be cleaning up after the snake. That is quite a bit of crap to leave for a group of bugs



Ed said:


> A false bottom isn't a bad idea as you want to keep the humidity up but the saturation of the substrate at a minimum for a number of reasons such as portions of the substrate going anaerobic or being so wet it is conducive to skin issues.
> 
> Another possible heating method is to include a hollow perch with a heating cable through the perch attached to a thermostat.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of the heated hollow perch. Thanks! I am leaning towards the false bottom, mostly for drainage. I was thinking about attaching an under the tank heater to the bottom of a piece of flat slate or maybe a piece of flooring tile and placing that under the substrate, but above the false bottom. How does this sound?

Thanks for the additional replies


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Oh I concur. That is why I said to remove the waste. I take it the fear is people think the inverts will do all the work? No way! 

Alas, I think some do not grasp the concept of "big enclosure" --this does not mean a 30 gallon tank! 

Established plants also help--I for one am a proponent of setting up a tank a few weeks before new residents (not always possible, I know). I have seen naturalistic vivaria for larger lizards, corn snakes, pituophids and arboreal boids. They seem to work--then again I never asked how often the pine snake keepers clean their enclosures!




Ed said:


> People overestimate the ability of the isopods and springtails to remove residues like urates etc. Very small amounts of residue may be cleaned up but the only reason the arthropods would target it is if they were nitrogen starved.
> 
> Urates can easily stain porous materials so make them easy to remove and as noted above plants tend to get trashed unless they are very sturdy so you want to be able to remove them as needed.
> 
> ...


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## Railrider1920 (Nov 12, 2016)

Groundhog said:


> I have seen naturalistic vivaria for larger lizards, corn snakes, pituophids and arboreal boids. They seem to work--then again I never asked how often the pine snake keepers clean their enclosures!


Oh man, you had to bring up pituophis. I want one of them as well. Just can't decide which one.

A bit off topic, I noticed that you are in NY. Are you in the city by chance? I come up here to Manhattan a few times a month. Can you recommend any pet shops that might have some vivs set up or maybe have the supplies for them?
Thanks


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

The answer is no. Although there is one company on Long Island (Vivariums in the Mist). 

In my opinion, you are better off getting supplies at a reptile expo, and the plants from a good nursery or mail order nursery. No reason to want to travel with this stuff. Do you have any near you in your part of Florida?

My advice is this: Make a serious decision as to what your emphasis is--the type of animal or the type of set up. Once you make your decision, proceed from there. 

For example, Pituophis would go into a completely different type of set up. Drier, sandy and horizontally oriented. 



Railrider1920 said:


> Oh man, you had to bring up pituophis. I want one of them as well. Just can't decide which one.
> 
> A bit off topic, I noticed that you are in NY. Are you in the city by chance? I come up here to Manhattan a few times a month. Can you recommend any pet shops that might have some vivs set up or maybe have the supplies for them?
> Thanks


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Actually there is one "pet store" in nyc that has dart frogs and mantellas and various other herps:

Amphibians |

Cool place, but I wouldn't say they have tons of cool "display" habitats set up. Its more like small functional vivs... Sometimes they watch other peoples stuff so you could get lucky. This one was on display there at one point:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/69025-marcgravia-gone-wild-antique-viv.html

Otherwise, like Groundhog said vivariums in the mist has a showroom in Long Island... Never been there so I couldn't tell you what he keeps there.

But... Since your interested in snake vivs I would highly recommend heading over to Rana Verde just outside NYC in Yonkers, as they have an ETB in a huge naturalistic vivarium like the one you want to build:

Habitats | Rana Verde

Its the one in the top row on the right.

They have a huge collection of herps all in nice vivariums. They've been selling a lot of their collection so I'm not sure if they are planning on staying open or not. 

Lots of really interesting animals in natural habitats... Def a great place to go if you want to see what others have done before you jump in.

As mentioned above, I would just go check out these places just because its fun and to get ideas... Stick to buying stuff at a show or online since you live in Florida...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Fauna out of business as of August 31. Now just mail order supplies. Rana Verde closing December 31.

Still, I would not recommend plant or supply shopping while on vacation or a business trip. Definitely not for a beginner.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Fauna too? Damn, I figured Rana was going out of business... OP if you can make it before then I would recommend considering your build.

Big box stores ruining everything...



Groundhog said:


> Fauna out of business as of August 31. Now just mail order supplies. Rana Verde closing December 31.
> 
> Still, I would not recommend plant or supply shopping while on vacation or a business trip. Definitely not for a beginner.


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## Railrider1920 (Nov 12, 2016)

Cam1941 and Groundhog, thanks for the info. I'm not really interested in shopping, just wanted to look at vivs people have set up. It's too bad those places are or are about to close. Maybe I'll check with Rana Verde next week, see if they are still open. I've got some time to kill while here in NY. Maybe one day I can get out to LI.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Rana is def there now... I just got fruitflies from them last week... Go while you can, that snake set up is amazing. 

Take a careful look around the enclosure you'll see all sorts of fascinating surprises LoL

Good luck with your build


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## OrangeTyrant (May 12, 2011)

I have a green tree python in a fully planted vivarium. Consider researching radiant heat panels. You will need a quality thermostat to control this also. My RHP is from ReptileBasics and my thermostat is a Herpstat 4. I have an RHP on one end of the enclosure, with a UVB bulb and led strip (mostly for the plants) running the rest of the length. Misting nozzles provide humidity, and a false bottom allows for drainage and keeps the plants happy. While I do have a cleaning crew, feces/urates/sheds are removed as they occur. Hope this helps!


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