# illegal imports



## winstonamc

here's a depressing article from the NYT
Indonesia's Furtive Snake Trade - NYTimes.com


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## easternversant

This is really very common in poison frogs as well. Many species and new morphs are illegally available (especially in Europe) almost as soon as they are found and described. 

We need to be sure that our pets are legally and sustainably available.


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## pdfDMD

easternversant said:


> ...We need to be sure that our pets are legally and sustainably available.


Agreed - our enthusiasm and appreciation for them shouldn't be a driving force for their extinction in the wild.


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## Dendroguy

One of the best people for new species are UE, they may not get them as fast as wild caught but they are all captive bred, an example for this is R. benadicta

D


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## easternversant

And the guys at UE own and preserve land in Peru. Some of their land is in an area which has been heavily deforested. This is where the Chazuta imitator come from.


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## winstonamc

exactly. Our hobby is lucky to have people like that. I just wish that other hobbies had the same resources / culture that incentivized this kind of practice


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## Ed

One of the things in that article is somewhat questionable... they state that animals with no set quota are illegal.. That isn't exactly true. The country of origin has the right to set the quota and unless/until it can be shown that the lack of a quota is harmful, the animals can continue to be exported. This hobby sees this exact issue with the export of pumilio from Panama. Panama has refused to set a quota and is a signatory of CITES, yet the frogs are able to be legally exported to the US. And we can see this sort of thing documented here http://www.vincentnijman.org/files/a88_nijmanshepherd_poisonarrowfrog_biodivconserv_2.pdf and it has been more than a year since the publication of that article, yet Panama continues to export large numbers of dendrobatids. 

If the above sentiments are correct, then people should be refusing to purchase the imports coming into the country and not attempting to club to gether and make a purchase from one of the leading importers in Florida.... 


Some comments

Ed


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## jacobi

Ed said:


> If the above sentiments are correct, then people should be refusing to purchase the imports coming into the country and not attempting to club to gether and make a purchase from one of the leading importers in Florida....


^^^^^ That! ^^^^^

There's a lot of talk here about the importance of "buying captive bred" and it's a little sad to see how many people here don't put their money where their mouths are...


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## johnc

Almost as bad as herp smugglers are photo stealers. Isn't that right Dendroguy?


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## easternversant

johnc said:


> Almost as bad as herp smugglers are photo stealers. Isn't that right Dendroguy?


Seconded! (But really, smugglers are much worse...10+ poison frogs leaving the country in a 500ml soda bottle is terrible)


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## carola1155

johnc said:


> Almost as bad as herp smugglers are photo stealers. Isn't that right Dendroguy?


Haha I'll admit I used to have one of your pics as my phone background 

But only I saw it... And marveled in its awesomeness.... Haha


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## johnc

I'm just kidding around. I don't mind stuff like that, really. Someone on here has one of my photos on his Capital One credit card (as do I).


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## BlueRidge

Dendroguy said:


> One of the best people for new species are UE, they may not get them as fast as wild caught but they are all captive bred, an example for this is R. benadicta
> 
> D


And legal!


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## Dendroguy

johnc said:


> Almost as bad as herp smugglers are photo stealers. Isn't that right Dendroguy?


Bah, you need to put a watermark on those bad boys, they are definitely worthy. I've been trying to get a pic of my pumilio that's the right specs , your varadero's a real beauty, mind giving me a price list for the babies .
Edit: What camera do you use? I'm using a Nikon D3100.

D


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## Dendroguy

easternversant said:


> And the guys at UE own and preserve land in Peru. Some of their land is in an area which has been heavily deforested. This is where the Chazuta imitator come from.


My family owns undeveloped land in Brazil, maybe I should give some thought on going down there!

D


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## easternversant

Dendroguy said:


> What camera do you use? I'm using a Nikon D3100.
> 
> D


You should go...from what I hear Brazil is sweet. 

I use a D3100 as well, it takes some phenomenal pics for being a cheap, entry-level dslr. Some of mine: Flickr: A. Stuckert's Photostream


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## Dendroguy

easternversant said:


> You should go...from what I hear Brazil is sweet.
> 
> I use a D3100 as well, it takes some phenomenal pics for being a cheap, entry-level dslr. Some of mine: Flickr: A. Stuckert's Photostream


Yes I agree, this is by far the best photo I've taken so far with my D3100, the Clouded Sulphur

D


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## easternversant

Dendroguy said:


> Yes I agree, this is by far the best photo I've taken so far with my D3100, the Clouded Sulphur
> 
> D


Cool! Great shot of the eyes.


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## BlueRidge

easternversant said:


> Seconded! (But really, smugglers are much worse...10+ poison frogs leaving the country in a 500ml soda bottle is terrible)


It's crazy how they can get them out like that. Are foreign airports that slack that they don't notice? LOL


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## Dendroguy

They even use film holders like we use for egg sites. There are stories of smugglers posing as tourists with their camera and film, packing the canisters so tight the frogs can't even move! 

D


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## Rusty_Shackleford

jacobi said:


> ^^^^^ That! ^^^^^
> 
> There's a lot of talk here about the importance of "buying captive bred" and it's a little sad to see how many people here don't put their money where their mouths are...


Jake, if you hadn't noticed by now, there is a lot of talk about having ethics in the frog hobby, and a real lack of the actual practice of ethics in the frog hobby. I'm sure there are people keeping illegal frogs that would speak out against having such frogs on a public forum. Yet when some rare frogs of questionable origin come in, they are the first to pounce on them. Kind of a "I'll ask you no questions about where they came from, and you don't tell me where they came from" transaction. It's sad to say, but smuggled/illegal frogs are probably more prevalent in the hobby than you ever thought was possible.


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## varanoid

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Jake, if you hadn't noticed by now, there is a lot of talk about having ethics in the frog hobby, and a real lack of the actual practice of ethics in the frog hobby. I'm sure there are people keeping illegal frogs that would speak out against having such frogs on a public forum. Yet when some rare frogs of questionable origin come in, they are the first to pounce on them. Kind of a "I'll ask you no questions about where they came from, and you don't tell me where they came from" transaction. It's sad to say, but smuggled/illegal frogs are probably more prevalent in the hobby than you ever thought was possible.


Agreed 100%.


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## tritium

So isn't it our responsibility to change that? Im still new but i know exactly what happens if you even dare mix morphs. The ironic thing is some of the strongest arguments are "its detrimental to wild populations." shouldn't we as a hobby equally vilify those who DIRECTLY and IMMEDIATELY harm wild populations?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2


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## easternversant

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Jake, if you hadn't noticed by now, there is a lot of talk about having ethics in the frog hobby, and a real lack of the actual practice of ethics in the frog hobby. I'm sure there are people keeping illegal frogs that would speak out against having such frogs on a public forum. Yet when some rare frogs of questionable origin come in, they are the first to pounce on them. Kind of a "I'll ask you no questions about where they came from, and you don't tell me where they came from" transaction. It's sad to say, but smuggled/illegal frogs are probably more prevalent in the hobby than you ever thought was possible.


I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen all the youtube videos people post of their frog rooms. Many of these have illegal frogs. There are NO legal Excidobates (Dendrobates) mysteriosus or captivus, but I've seen plenty of videos where people have 5 in a viv.....

If you see a new frog, it is your responsibility to make sure that it is legal. If this means that you don't get a new frog because there is no documentation, then that is what you NEED to do.

It may not seem bad to buy 1 or 2 illegal frogs, but the death rate is insanely high with these illegal imports (I feel that they go well over 90% in many cases). Buying a few is enough profit and impetus for the practice to be profitable and continue.

/end rant.

Adam


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## winstonamc

easternversant said:


> It may not seem bad to buy 1 or 2 illegal frogs, but the death rate is insanely high with these illegal imports (I feel that they go well over 90% in many cases). Buying a few is enough profit and impetus for the practice to be profitable and continue.
> 
> Adam


In other words, buying 1-2 frogs is financing the loss of far far more, even at the micro-economic level of those frogs that die in transport whose deaths are built into the costs of the one or two purchased


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## Rusty_Shackleford

tritium said:


> So isn't it our responsibility to change that? Im still new but i know exactly what happens if you even dare mix morphs. The ironic thing is some of the strongest arguments are "its detrimental to wild populations." shouldn't we as a hobby equally vilify those who DIRECTLY and IMMEDIATELY harm wild populations?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2


It would be impossible to get the active hobby ie those on forums, to agree to anything 100%, then there is the segment of the hobby which doesn't frequent forums at all. How are you going to spread the word to them?


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## tritium

I don't know. Chances are we honestly can't, but that doesn't mean not to try. Easternversant and Winstonamc are 100% correct that purchasing just 1 or 2 frogs directly causes the death of multiple multiple others. Why don't we attack the vendors that sell illegal imports like we attack the breeders that sell cross breeds? Isn't the point that both actions are harmful to the species and the hobby?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2


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## Rusty_Shackleford

tritium said:


> I don't know. Chances are we honestly can't, but that doesn't mean not to try. Easternversant and Winstonamc are 100% correct that purchasing just 1 or 2 frogs directly causes the death of multiple multiple others. Why don't we attack the vendors that sell illegal imports like we attack the breeders that sell cross breeds? Isn't the point that both actions are harmful to the species and the hobby?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2


I realize your rather new to frogs and these forums so perhaps you're not aware how some of these things work. If illegally imported frogs do come into the country, they are not widely advertised on forums such as this. It's very much a word of mouth thing. Those who have them for sale or those purchasing them are very hush hush about things. Most of the information about these frogs coming in is spread through a network of people. So and so says so and so brought these frogs in. It's all rumor and conjecture and innuendo. Not much could be proved one way or the other. Now if you go spreading this info around ya know who's gonna end up being ostracized? You are. Yes I know it stinks. I wish there was more we as hobbyists could do about it. Believe me I'm all about calling out BS when I see it. 
If you talk to people, behind the scenes so to speak, in PM's, you'll learn who to stay away from. Who has allegedly brought in illegal animals. The stories are all out there, but it's doubtful you'll ever see them out in the open on a forum.


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## singhm29

I recently had this topic on my mind after going to a local breeders expo. An individual had a rather huge amount of Tribolonotus gracilis, a beautiful skink from New Guinea that only lays a single egg clutch. Asking him if they were wild caught he did not hesitate to tell me they were fresh from Indonesia. Having one of these myself it really hit a chord and made me wonder why this vendor was able to sell essentially illegal goods at an official event.

Why do the organizers of these expo's not enforce some sort of rule to forbid any vendors selling wildcaught specimens? 

Closing off an avenue of distributions for these people who clearly are looking for higher profits and lower costs and giving people with captive bred animals an edge by allowing them to reach more of the market. 

Vendors selling wild caught animals are not breeders. 
They should not have the right to be at any official event supporting the hobby and should be forced to lurk online for sales.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Running an expo or reptile show is a business just like any other. The owners/organizers are in it to make money. More than likely anyone selling illegal animals is a big business rather than a small potatoes breeder like you or me. If they ban a large vendor that buys 4 or 6 tables at their show how does that effect their bottom line? There is good news though, often times there are undercover wildlife officers at many of these shows looking for illegal animals. There have been undercover sting operations in the past.


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## singhm29

I agree, and I hope no one takes my previous reply as a quick solution that has no other implications. Shutting out a vendor takes away from an expos bottom line and doing that to enough vendors might just make it unfeasible to even run the expo effecting consumers like me and you. 

I was not aware of the undercover officers and that seems like a much better way of doing things, not only would the vendor lose money by showing up to the show and paying for the tables, they would lose by getting some sort of fine and possible criminal charges, lose credibility at the show and hopefully think twice before coming back to expos. What agency do the officers work for?


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## Ed

singhm29 said:


> I recently had this topic on my mind after going to a local breeders expo. An individual had a rather huge amount of Tribolonotus gracilis, a beautiful skink from New Guinea that only lays a single egg clutch. Asking him if they were wild caught he did not hesitate to tell me they were fresh from Indonesia. Having one of these myself it really hit a chord and made me wonder why this vendor was able to sell essentially illegal goods at an official event.


Point of clarification, if they originated in what used to be Irian Jaya and is now known as West Papua, it is part of Indonesia and are legal with legal permits to be exported.... Unless something has changed, from what I can tell, T. gracilis is found in what used to be Irian Jaya. 



singhm29 said:


> Why do the organizers of these expo's not enforce some sort of rule to forbid any vendors selling wildcaught specimens?


Does the the expo have a specific rule requiring all of the animals to be captive bred? Do they have a definition of captive bred as an example, I have seen species that were clearly hatched or born from collected wild caught animals for sale at cb only shows, since the organizers did not define captive bred. 

If the expo had points one and two clearly defined, was it brought to their attention? Often those organizing the expos are running non-stop all day long and may not be able to screen all of the animals (and may not know the status of all animals for sale).(I've worked captive bred only shows... so I have some experience..) 



singhm29 said:


> Vendors selling wild caught animals are not breeders. They should not have the right to be at any official event supporting the hobby and should be forced to lurk online for sales.


Many vendors sell both wild caught and captive bred animals... also does a person who aquired a wild caught animal(s) be allowed to sell it down the line after it was used in a breeding program or does that get them banned as well? 
I'm not thrilled by the massive harvest and sale of animals into the pet trade since the vast majority of them don't survive but I also find it interesting that you own a species that you are stating is illegal... Pretty much all of the T. gracilis in captivity have come out of Irian Jaya......and in the beginning (I saw some at the Cincinatti Zoo back in 1995 that were confiscated due to improper paper work, and were going on the open market for @400-500 dollars....) they were available quite a long time ago, and do not appear to have ever really become established in the hobby... 

Some rambling comments

Ed


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## andersonii85

easternversant said:


> I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen all the youtube videos people post of their frog rooms. Many of these have illegal frogs. There are NO legal Excidobates (Dendrobates) mysteriosus or captivus, but I've seen plenty of videos where people have 5 in a viv.....
> 
> If you see a new frog, it is your responsibility to make sure that it is legal. If this means that you don't get a new frog because there is no documentation, then that is what you NEED to do.
> 
> It may not seem bad to buy 1 or 2 illegal frogs, but the death rate is insanely high with these illegal imports (I feel that they go well over 90% in many cases). Buying a few is enough profit and impetus for the practice to be profitable and continue.
> 
> /end rant.
> 
> Adam


I disagree. I found a way to have legal Excidobates! 









Seriously though, I back your statements 100%


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## frogface

I found the vendors at a show policing themselves. At this show, some vendors noticed that a table was selling turtles that were not legal to sell. The other vendors approached him and the show organizers and had him pull the turtles from his table. 

Maybe this self-policing happens regularly?

(eta and OT: JaredJ, you saw how the community pulled together to take care of Bill and his animals. Very few have ever met Bill. I have not. So, you can see how important this community can be.)


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## kyle1745

I have edited the BS out of this thread. Please remain on topic and note that any further off topic posts will be addressed immediately.


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