# New Way to keep Tadpoles ?



## froglet (May 18, 2005)

*Ok so this is a horrible pic of a 2 1/2 Gallon tank with an undergravel filter. If you can see close enough the black spots are tadpoles. :lol: I have a few tads growing now in separate cups and its getting to be a pain cleaning and feeding them. I know many of you do this but i figured i could try it this way. A simple 2 1/2 gallon tank with undergravel filer, lots of plants and bang.... 

Now the problems lie with a few things. One is canibalism which we all know occur withing certain species. I think that keeping the tank heavily planted will most likely solve this issue. Also suppossedly some tadpoles release a chemical that will make other tads smaller ( survival of the fittest etc)... would that be a problem in this size tank. What would be the limit of tadpoles per tank ? Would doing more water changes then once a week help with the chemical release ? etc... Any input that would help would help. I am going to place some Tara/Intermedious/lamasi tads in there, possibly some reticulatus..... 

I have used this method in the past and it worked great for my tricolors, not a single problem loosing any......*


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Dude, if you are just going to be tossing tads like those together, send them to me, I can relieve you of having to pay upkeep on them...


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

^^ Ditto.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

catfur...you read my mind!

The chemical growth inhibitor is real (don't have firsthand proof with the high buck tads you mentioned) here is a pic of two clutchmates (six point auratus) raised together in a 9oz cup:









Also cannibalism is very real...I say find the time to raise them separate, or, I think there was a post where the tads were in the same water, but separated by screen...myself, I'd make myself get out of bed early and raise them separate....heck, I do that with auratus!


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

*I do have the time to raise them separate.... But i did raise 100+ Tricolors in the tank method. They did real well and i never had problems. Like i sayd im more worried about the chemical then canivalism.... I have almost all my tads right now all separate but i do know of a few people that raise 3 or 4 together in deli cups with no problems, changing the water twice a week. I only have 2 tads in the same deli cup for 2 weeks now, and no signs of anything.... I Will do more research on this but just wanted to hear peoples opinions*


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

If you really want to try it, I suggest one clutch per tank, and try it first with the tads you will miss the least (obviously).
Along with alot of plants, I'd reccomend a handfull of oak leaves as well.
Also beware of the undergravel filter, make sure the tads are swimming strong before putting them in there...you may also want to consider using sand instead of gravel (or with).


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

*I am not saying i will do this. I def have the room and cups to raise them separate... I am just asking if anyone has. Like i sayd i used this method with tricolors and i had no issues. My only use right now for a 2 1/2 gallon tanks are my new born froglets. I do want to experiment with some vents possibly. It would be a fun experiment. I know that chemical release is a big issue in small containers/cups but i wonder if with enough plants, some real dirt and plenty of water changes, would this be an issue then ? 


A few years ago when i had tricolors i would keep them in this kind of enclosure. 8 or 9 at a time or what ever size the clutch was. I have to say that froglets morphed out a few days apart from one another and never had a problem with canibalism. Think about it..... ITs much much larger space then a film canister or brom axil, maybe that has something to do wit it....*


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Similar setup, less the UGF:










I've had up to seven tads at a time in that tank. I'd venture to say 20 would be the maximum number of tads in this setup, but I'll likely not hit that point for a long while. The difference between clutchmate morph out was a week. I've not had enough experience with the individual method, but that seems pretty acceptable to me. This was done in a 32pq sweater box, without water changes, tap water w/ oak leaf based tad tea, java moss, pothos, and two air stones. The last group to come out was SLS, so tap water is being changed to RO tad tea and the breeders are on a break for now.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Okay, warning and apologies in advance for what I am about to post--an extremely long list of some links I found to interesting articles via a simple Google search on "tadpole growth inhibitors." Froglet, thanks for getting me started on this most interesting reading adventure! 

Before I append the links, let me differ a bit from the other responses you've rec'd and say that IMO, such a system as you propose would be an interesting experiment to try. I sort of base that on a long history of being able to keep and breed many FW fish species at much higher densities than recommended simply by using very heavily planted tanks...According to the following articles, there are a host of different mechanisms by which one tad can affect the growth of another (and these studies deal almost solely with temperate anuran species only). Some of these include intra- and inter-specific competition, kinship interactions, predation pressure, and, of course, some sort of growth inhibitor released by one tad that affects others. I found the suggestion in one paper that the inhibitor involved a fungus released in tad feces very interesting--it suggests that good filtration and water changes, in addition to the natural filtration of plants, might go a long way towards ameliorating the effects of such inhibitors...

One thought--have you considered setting up a separate tank for each species first? That would still simplify the raising work a bit while starting with fewer variables...

Now, here are the links I forewarned you about (note: most are just abstracts--further access involves payment. Some are complete pdfs, though...Hey! How about that? Adobe's document format acronym is..._pdf_! But I digress...): 

tad growth inhibition of one temperate anuran by another:
http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rpa ... lyLang=eng

fungi in tad feces suppressing mosquito growth:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... 03.00476.x

intraspecific competition produces faster growth rate in wood frog tads:
http://www.esajournals.org/esaonline/?r ... 4&page=523

tad relatedness (kinship) affecting growth rates and other parameters:
http://www.helsinki.fi/~saikio/publicat ... 3Oikos.pdf
http://oregonstate.edu/~blaustea/pdfs/H ... cology.pdf

phenotypic changes in tads in response to competition and predation pressures:
http://www.pitt.edu/~jra10/Relyea%20&%20Auld%202004.pdf

some observations on spadefoot toads (Scaphiopus):
http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/full.asp?sp_num=21
interesting excerpt from the above site:
"Diet: S. hammondii tadpoles consume planktonic organisms and algae, but are also carnivorous and will forage on dead vertebrates and invertebrates (Bragg 1964). Also, spadefoot tadpoles are known to pursue and eat fairy shrimp (Bragg 1962). The capability of tadpole cannibalism in the genus Scaphiopus, is one of many adaptations that allows for breeding in temporary pools (Low 1976). Spadefoot toads are more likely to express a carnivorous/ cannibalistic phenotype when reared with multiple broods that include non-siblings/kin. When raised exclusively with kin, the carnivorous phenotype can be suppressed. Studies on S. bombifrons and S. multiplicata showed some differentiation in the trigger for carnivorous behavior. S. multiplicata individuals were more likely to express the carnivore phenotype in mixed sibship groups than in pure sibship groups. While S. bombifrons tadpoles were significantly more likely to express the carnivore phenotype when reared alone than in pure sibship groups (Pfennig and Frankino 1997). Regardless, both species exhibited this phenotype independent of food availability or sibship differences in size or growth rate, and waterborne chemical signals were enough to initiate expression of the carnivore phenotype (Pfennig and Frankino 1997). Farrar and Hey (1997) found that carnivorous spadefoot toads developed longer snouts, larger beaks with modified cusps, shorter intestines with fewer loops than omnivores and they feed on fairy shrimp. Studies conducted on S. couchii show that a constant high rate of food availability allows for the largest, and presumably, the most fit metamorphs (Newman 1994)."

--Diane


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I believe naturally, E. tricolor tads are raised communally, so they may not posses the chemical growth inhibitors. However, to the best of my knowledge, most of the Dendrobatid species raise tads individually. Knowing this, I probably will still try the community thing, but I will make sure I have lots of plant matter in the containers with them along with some carbon filtration.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

*Thank you so much Diane for that post. (Very Imformative)

I do believe that Tricolors might also be communal and do know that most Dendros are raised individually. IF Fecal matter or what not is a large case in chemical release i also think both and agree that a tank with good filtration and plenty of plant matter would reduce or totally eliminate the risk of stunt growth.*


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Frogtofall - be careful when using "Dendrobatid" and "Dendrobates" they mean two different things. "Dendrobatid" is talking about members of the family Dendrobatidae, rather than members of the genus _Dendrobates_, which is what I think you meant in this case.

I've done a similar set up to this, one problem with the graphic, you have to cut the tube down to just above the water level for it to work, the water level in the tube will only be agitated a little bit above the surface of the water, so to get the circulation you either need to fill the tank all the way up, or shorten the tube.

Tricolor, and I believe most of the Epipeds that have been in the hobby, are fine raised together with little agression and no real hormonal growth inhibiting (which btw is not harmful or really "stunting" the tad in a harmful way, its just hitting the pause button temporarily and I don't think is too much of an issue unless you want as many froglets out of the water as fast as you can). This set up, or something similar, is what I recomend for the tads.

_Dendrobates_ tadpoles in general are tougher. Tinc group frogs can be raised communally in much lower densities than the tricolors, seem to stake out specific territories, and besides some hormonal inhibiting, aren't too bad. Physical barriers such as rocks (which also provide more food grazing area in the form of bacteria/algae - even tho algae doesn't seem to play much of a role in their wild diets so lower light means more yummy bacteria instead of algae growth) help allow for more territories in a space, and I'd recomend them over plants. I personally don't use plants as they tend to be a waste of time as I don't think they really help the tads much (you can keep the water oxygenated and clean just fine with the UG filter set up talked about in the diagram). The hornome inhibiting either you just ignore, or do water changes, or I believe activated charcoal someone said might take the hormones out of the water (as well as the tannins in your tadpole tea!) but you really have to keep up with replacing the carbon as it only actually works for 1-2 weeks. If you're looking to raise a lot of tads as fast as you can, this is not really the best way to do it without wasting a lot of water and/or space.

Thumbnails I just don't see the point in trying to keep in communities when they so obviously have issues with being kept together and aren't kept together in the wild. Along with Tinc group frogs, its easier to sit cups in a tank (sitting in water heated by a water heater to keep all the cups a good temp) and just overflow/do a water change as needed. I can fit more thumbnail tads in small plastic cups/glass votive candler holders (cheaper than shot glasses, got them on sale at a craft store for like 5/$1) than I ever could trying to raise them communally. A 2.5 gallon might house 2-4 thumbnail tads... if you're lucky... yet I can fill it with somewhere around 15 votive candle holders/shot glasses, each with its own thumbnail tad. If you're trying something like vents, individual shot glasses are much better than trying anything communal (you'd have to have close to a 55 gallon to house the same amount of tads without them killing each other).


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Which species of tads are the most aggressive? I've heard leucs are pretty aggressive as tads.

Oh by the way, I've heard a lot of good things about raising tads communally.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Very interesting topic. The only tads I've had good luck with in terms of raising communally are tricolors since there is little aggression. The worst aggression I've seen has been with thumbnail tads (I've had vent tads that had already popped front legs and were in the process of morphing out attack a clutchmate in a similar stage of development and chew off the front legs :shock: ).

Good luck with your experiment Damian and let us know how it works out. I suspect that you will find success but have to live with some level of tad loss along the way...perhaps that in and of itself isn't all bad since you'll be 'selecting' for the strongest, most aggressive tads.

Bill


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2006)

I don't know much about tadpoles but, I used to breed tropical fish and betas. 

But I do know for a fact that many tads stunt eachothers growth, I found over 500 toad eggs in a puddle by my house, and hached as many as I could, I had at least 300 little tad poles in a 3 gallon tank, just to see if it was true, and it was, I ended up with about 100 morphed toads that were less than 3mm in size. X_X I didn't know how to care for anything that small so I put them all in a feild hopeing they might live.

From breeding tropical fish and betas, What seems to be the best setup for me was:
.Plain 10 gallon tank.
.Java Moss
.Riccia
.Red Ramshorn snails (They will east some of the waist)
.A few Bio balls, or something where alot of bacteria could grow, NO GRAVEL!
.Light
.Liquifry
.Algae discs
.Duckweed (Optional) this could often be a pain because it can kill the riccia.

With this setup I did very few water changed and still got a good turnout.

But if PDF tads need shallow water this setup wouldn't work well. Like I said, I dunno.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

*Well 300 Tads in a 3 Gallon tank sounds a bit exesive lol. I am not sure if any more then 50 would survive :lol: . I am thinking i will do top per 2 1/2 gallon tank 10 or so. Right now i have two clutch mates in a small Gladware container. It is holding aprox 2/3 Cup. I have had two tads there for about 1 week and a half and they both seem to be doing fine. Ofcourse i cant base anything on juts two tadpoles. I Also agree with COrey that rocks with algea would be better then alot of plants etc.... I Do have some algea collected from fish tanks and placed a bit into all my tads water, along with some java. I am feeding only twice a week and it seems that they are really enjoying the algea. Ofcourse i can not base anything with just two tads or three so i will wait until i have more time and do this with a few more..... *


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

With the exception of pumilio, I raise now all of my tads communally. This includes but it not limited to tincs, leucs, auratus, imitators, panguanian lamasi, fantasticus, terribillis, vittatus, and tricolors. I raise all of them in 16 x 10 x 10 rubbermaid containers with oak leaves, java moss and pathos and ½ filled with water. It works out to about 2 - 3 gallons of water in each. All of the enclosures are unfiltered, and I feed heavily. I do not mix species or clutches in these enclosures as a general rule, but have experimented with mixing species. I just want to offer a couple of my experiences and how they relate to the comments already in the thread. 

I cannot comment of Epipedobates in general, (still cannot get a viable clutch from my trivs) but you will have no issues raising tricolors this way, and the numbers of tads do not seem to matter. I have raised as many 28 tads (single clutch) and had 26 morph into froglets. I did not see any fin nipping or aggression. I actually set up a permanent tricolor tad enclosure based on some discussions I have had in the past with Corey and cannot wait to try it out. 

Phyllobates are the next best tads to raise this way. These guys lay pretty big clutches too so the tads are crowded, especially in the case of terribillis because they are a big tad as well. I have not witnessed any aggression or fin nipping but some of the tads take a lot longer to morph than others. I do not know if this is because of chemical release or not, because I have seen this in tads raised individually too, it just did not seem as extreme. An example of this is a group of vittatus where 9 of the froglets have been out of the water for 3 months, but 3 tads are still in the water and just got front legs this week. 

The average tinc/leuc/auratus/azureus clutch I get is around 6, out of these usually about 5 come out of the water, but they are about 2x as big as the tads I used to raise individually. If the clutches are bigger (my cobalts and yellowbacks average 8 eggs per clutch) it usually means that one less frog comes out of the water. My point is that space seems to be a factor with these tads and even if fed heavily, they still might cannibalize each other. 

Thumbs of course have smaller clutches and seem to do quite well raised communally although I have not tried this with vents or amazonicus. I have only lost 1 fant tad to cannibalism and no imitators or p. lamasi. 

OK, I have mixed tincs, leucs, auratus and tricolors in the past in a large (20 gallons of water) Rubbermaid container and ended up with a container full auratus. It is the only case where I saw tads attacking other live tads. They were fed just as heavily as the other enclosures, probably more so, but I think it is a survival behavior. 

To wrap up, this is not the lazy way to raise tads (which is what it has been called in the past) and it is not any quicker than individual containers because I work to maintain the water with cuttings and Java moss. I can guarantee that raising tads communally with cost you some tads, but they morph larger and seem more vigorous then when I raised them singly. I would also be hesitant to try this with frogs that are known to be difficult to breed and lay small clutches i.e. standard lamasi. Not because of the cost of the frog, but because they are rarer in the hobby and deserve a little more TLC. 

Hope this helps! 

PS. Corey you do not hear it anymore, but mixing activated carbon and tads used to be a no-no years ago. Maybe it was just an old wives tale, or it came from some comment that was changed thru the grapevine since I never actually spoke to anyone who tracked issues related to it, but I'd stick to either frequent water changes to handle the growth inhibiting issues or just letting the inhibited tads morph with time. 

Ed


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> PS. Corey you do not hear it anymore, but mixing activated carbon and tads used to be a no-no years ago. Maybe it was just an old wives tale, or it came from some comment that was changed thru the grapevine since I never actually spoke to anyone who tracked issues related to it, but I'd stick to either frequent water changes to handle the growth inhibiting issues or just letting the inhibited tads morph with time.


If my memory survives me right, this info came from a couple of zoos (and it wasn't even PDFs). There have, however, been those who have used charcoal with no ill effects. It appears that there is (as is the case 99% of the time) more variables at play.


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## PAULSCHUMANN (Apr 20, 2005)

Thats all I have ever used for my tads is 2.5 gal tanks with under gravel filters.


















they work great...1 clutch per tank


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

I can't decide if this is a very informative or very confusing thread. As a newbie I have never had dart eggs,tads or juvies  
However fro the last several summers I have collected eggs from my kids swimming pool on the back deck. I Live in NE ga just outside atl in the country a ways. We have a TON of tree frogs (regretably I have no clue what type  ) In the evening we have a chorus of frogs [I counted 12 on the deck one evening] and every day I found eggs in the little kiddie pool out there. So I decided it would be a cool experiment to gather the eggs and raise them rather than just dumping them out so my kids could still swim in the pool.

I kept them in a single 10 gal with gravel, half filled with water. I fed them tadpole bites and algae wafers and changed out the water every couple of weeks. once they popped out their front legs I took them out and kept them in a container with gravel and just enough water to keep the gravel wet. once they lost their tails completely we released them at the base of a tree out by the creek. I figured I had already done enough to upset the survival balance that occures in nature and It is not legal to keep native tree frogs in captivity in GA. 

I collected all the eggs we raised on the same day in july and I still had 25 tads in Dec. So there definately was some variation in the developmental time. and I did notice some cannibalism but only on already dead or dying tads. I never saw tads attack other healthy tads.
I knew next to nothing before I began this experiment , I have learned so much I didn't know at the time and didn't even figure out until I read dozens of topics concerning tadpolecare. If I decide to try this out aagain with the wild tree frog eggs there are definately some things I will try to do differently. 

This is such a cool topic, please keep it going :wink: I need as many ideas asI can find.

I am hoping my darts will lay some eggs for me and then I will have a chance to use what I am learning and raise some beautiful happy froglets.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yeah, I remember charcoal being a no-no, I've never used it with tads, and what I remember is charcoal actually being considereds a factor of SLS - some people who used mechanical filters with activate carbon had horrid SLS in tads, when the carbon was removed, SLS stopped being an issue. IMO I think it took something important out of the water rather than being the activated carbon itself.

To tell you the truth, I've never used a mechanical filter with any of the PDF tads period! lol. I've used undergravels with permenant set ups, and I love them, as long as I remember to keep the water levels up high enough!

IMO - comparing raising tads communally of native species that are normally found in high densities and PDFs is almost like comparing apples and oranges here (tho the natives are similar to epipeds in living well in groups). Especially with lacking knowledge about the biology of the native frog this honestly just throws in more confusion (such as the extremely small toadlets that morphed... which actually might be the normal size toadlets morph!). I could go on and on about native tadpole species, but I'm going to keep it in the family here, to try and cut down the confusion more.

Which brings me to bettas lol - talk about apples and oranges  I lvoed the info btw (I'm a major betta fan and would like to breed some of the species bettas in the future). Bettas and tads seem to go for similar water types (low movement, tannic, etc) but there are some significant differences I want to point out - mainly that from personal observations (yes, I'm going to harp how I raised tads), you want bacteria layers growing everywhere, rather than plants and algae, and you want the surfaces they grow on to be "grazable" so the tads can get to it (bioballs are great for surface area to grow, but the tads can't really graze them). Thus, I replace the plants and other stuff fish keepers have, and replace with large stones/rocks, and instead of using gravel (or rather, on top of gravel) I use play sand. The sand is often ingested by both PDF and tropical hylids tadpoles (Genus _Agalychnis_ is the genus that was given to me as a specific example) where the bacteria layer is digested off the sand, and the sand is passed right thru the system. I've only used floating plants for "water quality" with only minor effects on water quality - plants don't occur in the water of the tads in the wild as far as I can tell (unless they are plants HOLDING the water) so I generally aviod plants in attempt to make it as close to the wild as possible..

The community vs. individual debate shall rage on! If you find it confusing, no worries, its not you. Its the topic in general. Done certain ways, each way can produce massive, healthy froglets (tho you hear about it more often with community tanks - but I've personally raised tads even larger than community tank tads, and have a couple other breeders who've done the same). There are so many variations beyond just the type and number of tads in a tank that its hard to compare them (this person uses mechanical filters, this person does tons of water changes, this person doesn't change water at all, etc). Then you've got to take into account tadpole diet, which plays a major role in size as well! Best way to figure out the right way - FOR YOU - to raise your tadpoles is to experiement!


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

I totally agree / completely different species and all that. I was just saying really that this topic has actually taught me things about my previous experience with the native tads. and In general that experiment is what gave me the confidence to attempt to keep darts. 

sorry to throw dust in the air as it were.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

One of the things I love about PDFs is the range in differences in bahavior and care... so much variety! I can raise tricolor similarly to the native species, I've learned so much from PDF tads that I used in turn to work with some harder native species tads (filter feeders, UGH! But my tadpole experience came back and saved me!). I think thats why I've managed to just get more obsessed with them over the years  That and I just love the tadpole stage for some reason... which is why I could never stick with reptiles (egg stage _BORING_!!)


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

armyofanubis said:


> I don't know much about tadpoles but, I used to breed tropical fish and betas.
> 
> But I do know for a fact that many tads stunt eachothers growth, I found over 500 toad eggs in a puddle by my house, and hached as many as I could, I had at least 300 little tad poles in a 3 gallon tank, just to see if it was true, and it was, I ended up with about 100 morphed toads that were less than 3mm in size. X_X I didn't know how to care for anything that small so I put them all in a feild hopeing they might live.
> 
> ...


Alot of toads morph out that size anyways. I don't believe that members of the Bufo genus stunt each others growth, due to the mass tadpole counts.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

*Well i just want to thank all of u for sharing your thoughts and expiriences. I guess there is no reason for me to do an experiment since alot of you already favor communal raising. I guess to each its own. The same way people keep their tads could be tied to the way they keep their tanks. Alot of people make these luxirious tanks that make you believe you are inside a rainforest while other with a few pieces of cork bark, pothos and a brom or two have much higher breeding success.... I guess its all about # 1 ( THE FROGS ). For some people it will be communal and others individual.... WHAT EVER WORKS, WORKS *


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

froglet said:


> *Well i just want to thank all of u for sharing your thoughts and expiriences. I guess there is no reason for me to do an experiment since alot of you already favor communal raising. I guess to each its own. The same way people keep their tads could be tied to the way they keep their tanks. Alot of people make these luxirious tanks that make you believe you are inside a rainforest while other with a few pieces of cork bark, pothos and a brom or two have much higher breeding success.... I guess its all about # 1 ( THE FROGS ). For some people it will be communal and others individual.... WHAT EVER WORKS, WORKS *


And where do you gather that?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

*I gather that from facts. Just looking at Galleries..... Talking to breeders etc. This is not something that is unknown.... I have friends that have tanks with almost nothing and breed like nuts while others have awsome display tanks and nada,zip,zero...Ofcourse not all cases are like this but it does happen alot *


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

allright we`ve gotta stop the old wives tail about charcoal filters causing sls. charcoal is good, ammonia is bad. ive morphed out hundreds of tads w/ charcoal filters. they clean the water. they dont remove ammonia though. if you dont remove the ammonia you`ll get sls and small froglets. charcoal alone doesnt work unless you do weekly, partial to full water changes to get the ammonia out or keep levels low. ive been using 3 inch pvc pieces(2in diameter) w/ mesh netting siliconed to the bottom to make individual houses for my tads. space matters. all my froglets in 2 inch pvc are morphing smaller than tads in the same water, right next to them, in 3 inch or larger pvc. maybe if they cant see each other they dont release hormones. it may be a visual thing. i have close to 700 tads in about 100 g of water, which is filtered w/ a fluval filter, 3 sponge filters and 2 small jet filters(to remove solid debri 2 - 3 x a week per sweater box). w/ certiain species a communal push goes a long way. my phyllos are housed(up to 18) in fish brooding nets. they cant climb the pvc but can climb the netting. communal raising needs more food to work correctly. i have very little luck raising phyllos and epis individually. water temps also affect the amount you have to feed and filter. communal tads need to always have something to chew on. adding coco chips helps. 
in summation it`s the space that you give them that makes them big(all other factors equal such as food quality, water temps etc).
the problem with most of what you hear is that there is only one experience that goes into a statement(such as charcoal causes spindlly) and all other factors are not considered. in this case the method of feeding and the containers they were kept in, the possibility that moving water caused the tads to expend energy and not feed as much, etc, etc. too many factors are not addressed that may have also been the cause of sls.
ive heard a lot of wives tails that ive disproved in the past, such as galact eggs need to be in the dark for them to form, but ive never heard this one. i can, however, see where it came from.
i had problems in the past, before i read up on filtration, w/ using just a power head/charcoal filter on my tads and yes i got spindly and small froglets and kicked the filtration idea out and went back to water changes. i then educated myself on the topic and it`s now working great w/ the adjustments ive made. after ammonia breaks down you also need to remove the nitrite and nitrates too.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I wasn't trying to imply that charcoal does cause SLS, just that that was one of the main reasons activated carbon filtration was a "no-no" in the past - it obviously isn't now with the amount of people using it with their tads. I do agree that they didn't analyze the whole situation very well, just realized when they took the charcoal out of the filtration, the SLS went away.

For constant food sources boiled wild almond and oak leaves, especially for epipedobates (and I suspect phyllobates) goes a long way, and I plan to have them present in pretty much all my tad containers now. I agree that constant food is important, and regularly scheduled feedings just don't seem to do the trick (especially when our foods spoil the water after a certain time, which increases the need for filtration and water changes).

I have (*knocks on wood*) yet to have spindly appear in my tads over the years with my little to no filtration and water changes method. If you can manage water quality (which involves a lot of balance with what you feed) I think you're set.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

frogfarm, I was wondering if someone was going to mention sponge filters. I find them excellent to use, especially in bare bottom tanks with high bioloads and inhabitants that don't enjoy a lot of water movement (fish fry, for instance). And they can be great for harboring the bacteria needed for the nitrification/denitrification cycles.

Years ago I raised a clutch of wood frogs from eggs, and somewhere I have pretty good records of the whole operation, but, typically, I can't find my notes...

But this is what I remember. My then rather young son returned from an early spring pond exploration with a nearly round clump of myriads of amphibian eggs. While it looked like an awful lot of eggs to deal with, the mass was very cohesive and gentle efforts to separate some of the eggs were futile. So, probably inadvisedly in retrospect, we decided to keep them all for raising. I put them in a 10g tank with a sponge filter. They hatched in short order and thrived on several feedings a day, usually of blanched romaine. With so many tads, it was impossible to maintain a properly cycled tank. And so I began to change water...and change water...and change water...as the tads grew the water quality deteriorated with each feeding, and I was soon changing most of the water twice a day. Fortunately I have excellent well water that has always been great for all critters aquatic, so I was able to just ladle out (with a pitcher) the old water and pour in (temperature adjusted) well water straight from the tap. The tank was on my drainboard so it was an easy chore.

If I had my notes I'd have more detail, but pretty soon into the project we determined that we'd collected a spawn of wood frog eggs. We learned that they frequently use a communal egg-laying site, which explained the great number of eggs. (Which made our rearing project even stupider, when you think about it--removing what was possibly the total reproductive effort of the species for that pond that year!) According to an MSU frog book, a few suggestions have been made as to the reason for this system: "one idea is that the glut of potential food may assure that egg predators will be unable to destroy all of the eggs before hatching. It is also possible that the large number of dark colored eggs absorb heat faster and hold heat longer than single egg masses." (They breed in the early spring, sometimes when there're still snow patches around.)

Luckily, the tads began to metamorphose in short order and for a while, every day when my son came home from school there was a little plastic crittter keeper of lively froglets for him to take to the pond and release. As I remember, there were 200-250 froglets altogether. A few tads died, and a few morphed out with deformities, but I believe both were in the single figures. They all morphed w/in one or two weeks of each other.

At this point, we figured we'd probably pulled more tads through to the froglet stage than would have made it in nature, so we were curious to see if we noticed any increase in the wood frog population. But, purely observationally (sight & esp. sound) the population seems to remain more or less the same year after year. I like to think that any froglets in excess of the local carrying capacity were able to disperse to some other habitat...

Anyway, just wanted to add yet another temperate frog raising experience, as this thread already contains similar reports. I guess mine might make the case for water changing, especially if your system is overpopulated!

--Diane


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2006)

*Hijack*

Greeting all,
Not to hi-jack your thread, but I have a couple of questions relative to raising tadpoles that I could not adequately answer via seach. But I thought from this thread you might have the experience to. I just had my second clutch of eggs (Azureus). The first went bad. I took the clucth from the viv after three days. Of this clutch two went bad which left me with three. 

I have read several books and cannot definitively nail down the following.
I read an article that said once the tadpoles are getting ready to hatch from the jelly make sure there is enough water to swim in. So I filled the petri dish about half way. One tad hatched a couple of days before the others so I put it in its own petri filled about 1/4-1/2 with water. I saw no movement for at least a day and thought it was dead. Just when I decided I was going to toss it, it moved. So I have left it alone. Still I rarely see movement. I have now duplicated this with the second tad that hatched. But it sure seems I saw more movement as they were getting ready to hatch, than I do now that they are in water (1/2 filled petri) IS THIS NORMAL? 

The same book when discussing frog parenting, talks about the male frog transporting the tadpoles to the water. So obviously they are not in the water when they hatch?

The article went on to say, tincs should have .5 liter of water. When do I transport the tad to a cup with this much water?

The article I read said start feeding four days after it hatches. That would be tomorrow. Does this sound right.

Oh, I now have my third clutch of which three eggs look good.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks
Otis


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

First off - what article are you referring to?

The tads in the wild when they hatch are usually just eggs sitting on a leaf that mom and pop have been keeping moist. When the tadpoles hatch they manage to make it onto one of the parents' backs and can be there from 24-48 hours! The tads won't leave the parent's back until they are submersed in a water source they like - if they don't like it they keep holding on, and the parent moves onto the next water source to try.

The lack of activity you're referring to after hatching is normal, and has happened in ever species I've hatched (PDF and non PDF). At this point the tadpoles are feeding off the last of their egg yolk and do not need to be fed (it will only mess up the water, they won't eat it). The tadpoles will then start getting active running their mouths over every surface they can find for food - at this point you should start introducing food. If you're feeding fish flakes feed the tads flakes the size of the round part of their body (not including tail, just the body) 2-3x a day (the more the merrier). I don't have experience with the other food types, but highly recomend "Frog & Tadpole Bites" - just remember to think that these things are like fish flakes rolled up in a ball, so a little goes a long way! See how many "kibbles" the tad will eat in 20 mins, and keep it to that (extra should be removed ASAP). All tadpole food, when feeding, should be consumed within 20 mins, if there is food left over it needs to be removed, and you need to feed less at one time. Lots of small meals are better than one or two big ones. Also having a constant source ofr table "munchies" in their container is a good idea, like a boiled leaf of oak or wild almond.

I've had tinc/azureus tads raised up in both the "beer" bup sized plastic cups individually, or communally like talked about here, both with great success.


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