# Bearded Dragon colon falling out?



## danny8524ever

Hey guys I know this is about a lizard and not a frog but I was hoping someone could shed some light for me before I take my bearded dragon to the vet tomorrow. Today when I was feeding my female bearded dragon I noticed blood on the sticks she clinms over. When I inspected her saw what looks like her colon hanging out of her. I've tried googling info on if this her trying to lay unfertilized eggs or if this is a serious problem and I couldn't find anything. As you can see it's a rather large thing. Anyone able to help me out here?


----------



## BlueRidge

Thats a prolapse dude! You need to wrap gauze soaked in sugar water around it and get the beardie to the vet. The sugar water will help with swelling. The prolapse can be from insufficient diet or damage from something it ate but is most likely from parasites. In that pic the beardies legs look quite a bit wrinkled indicating it may not be getting enough nutrition. 

Have you ever tried Parazap? It works wonders for intestinal bugs.


----------



## danny8524ever

Thank you very much. No I have not used anything like that. I feed her a veggie mix I buy from the local pet store and powdered crickets. So if it's a parasite it had to have come from the crickets. So does that mean my forgs could get the parasites too? I'll try making some sugar water and wrapping a little wet paper towel around it and see how wel that works but I feel like the paper will dry out pretty quick from the dry conditions of her tank. Well maybe not since it's bleeding. This is the first time she has had any problems and I just noticed it like an hour ago. Since it's almost 11 pm here there isn't really much I can do about it now which is why I was trying to find info before I take her to the vet tomorrow.


----------



## pa.walt

if its a prolapse try hemoroid cream. i know it gets mentioned when a frog has a prolapse.


----------



## danny8524ever

I looked up prolapse and yes it would seem that sugar water is good for it, along with KY jelly. If I keep it moist will it eventually go away or does this require an operation?


----------



## BlueRidge

I'd let the vet make the diagnosis as to why the prolapse, then you can know why it happened. As far as diet, I always used fresh veggies/flowers, etc for our beardies. I could never bring myself to use commercial foods. 

It's actually a misconception that beardies should be fed crickets as adults. As hatchlings and juveniles they should be fed a varied diet just as adults but juvies tend to eat more insects. As adults they should move to more veggies with insects as a supplement. We would feed our breeding females a pinky mouse once per month during the breeding season just to keep up their calcium but after they are about 2 years old. All of our beardies LOVED dandelions and would pace the tank when they saw us coming with yellow in our hands.

I'm sure the vet will fix her up, they usually can push it back in, though sometimes it requires sutures.


----------



## danny8524ever

I've put her into a smaller tank with sugar water soaked paper towels in the bottom and a light on top to keep her warm. I hope that dampness doesnt cause more problems for her since she is supposed to be in a dry environment. The prolapse is obviously bothering her because she is biting and pulling at it so the wrapping isn't staying on it. God I hope she can make it till tomorrow.


----------



## danny8524ever

The veggie mix is fresh cut veggies like kale and a few other greens and some kind of purple mushy balls. She is like a crack addict for crickets though. She sees me coming with them and she is trying to break through the tank lol. She was feeding on them when I noticed this so at least she is still eating. I know bearded dragons are supposed to become more vegetarian so does that mean I'm supposed to just stop giving her crickets? She just loves them so much and I love watching her hunt them.


----------



## BlueRidge

No, they will still eat insects but just not as frequently. We tried to stay away from crickets though as they are a nutritional shell. If you don't gutload them they are worthless. Dubia roaches are way better, full of protein. Phoenix worms are good on occasion as well. I'm sure she'll be ok until tomorrow as long as she's not actively bleeding all over the place. Turn her lights off and let her chill out.


----------



## danny8524ever

Thanks. Any chance I can get a heads up on the costs I'm looking at when I go to the vet tomorrow?


----------



## Ed

Prolapses are a medical emergency and require rapid response and veterinary care. If the swelling is not corrected, the tissue becomes dry or damaged it can require surgical removal to prevent death. 

The reason vets use sugar to treat the prolapse is because when used in hypertonic solutions it can remove some of the swelling allowing for the tissues to be correctly reinserted. 

As for causes, some of the more common causes are disruption of the calcium metabolism, or parasite loads but there are other potential causes such as impactions, retained eggs, etc... Attempting to make a guess as to the real cause without bloodwork is nothing more than a shot in the dark. 

If she is biting at it, then that is a real problem since if she causes enough damage it may require surgery. 

It should also be noted that once an animal prolapses there is an increased risk of further prolapses unless the underlying condition is resolved. 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## Ed

JaredJ said:


> No, they will still eat insects but just not as frequently. We tried to stay away from crickets though as they are a nutritional shell. If you don't gutload them they are worthless.


I'm throwing the BS flag here... 




JaredJ said:


> Dubia roaches are way better, full of protein.v


And potentially a lot of uric acid... I have to argue with the whole full of protien.....

Some comments

Ed


----------



## danny8524ever

I always powder my crickets. I'm trying to stay with only using crickets until I get some smaller frog species and need flies. I understand that it's an urgent matter but sadly it's midnight and there isnt much I can do till in the morning.


----------



## BlueRidge

Ed said:


> I'm throwing the BS flag here...
> 
> 
> 
> And potentially a lot of uric acid... I have to argue with the whole full of protien.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Aw come on Ed...crickets vs roaches? Crickets are mostly chitin, ever squish a dubia....gross. And roaches have a higher meat to shell ratio and twice the protein. Ok, I'd say female crickets are probably better as they tend to be fatter than the males being full of eggs and all. I dunno, I always heard crickets were junk unless they had fat green bellies.


----------



## BlueRidge

This is funny:

Crickets suck!

You know they do.

They chirp chirp chirp.
They attract other nasties.
They die and have a vulgar stench.
They just don't die soon enough if ya ask me.

We believe they give our critters worms.
Nematodes.
That's when they don't spring to safety just as they're about to me dropped into a cage only to die later in a corner and stink.
Did I mention they stink?

Cricket farms charge a lot of money. Apparently people still buy crickets.
Who'd want to be in the business of raising these vermin anyway?
Still, they give us a bonus.
That's right. Free flour moths and fuzzy worms in every box.
For a lot of money.

Crickets kill molting arachnids.
Crickets escape and leave hard tiny crap pellets in their wake.
Crickets have a life span of about 60 days. Two months too long.

Pet stores sell these vile creatures by the dozen.
The kid who gets them for you will count and make sure there isn't thirteen.
Eight will be alive when you get home. Probably the eight that can chirp.
Female crickets have ovipositors.
That's a fancy word for the thing pointing out of their butts.
Uneaten crickets will stick these things in the substrate and later your cage will be overrun with flea-size baby crickets.
Ain't that special?

Which brings me to the roach.
Now there's a bug to be fond of.
They breed like... well, roaches.
They eat things that are free or cheap.
They live a long time for a bug. Once a breeding colony is established you have almost free food forever.
In an assortment of sizes.
Hail the roach! The roach is good!


----------



## BlueRidge

Just for Nutritional value

Cricket (Acheta Domesticus)
Moisture 70.02 
Protein 18.5 
Cal% 0.08 
Fat 6.26 
Fiber 2.09 
Ash 1.29 

Dubia Roach (Blaptica Dubia) 
Moisture 61.18 
Protein 35.6 
Cal% N/A 
Fat 6.75 
Fiber 3.25 
Ash 2.01


----------



## danny8524ever

Thanks for the information guys. Sadly this morning when I woke up she had a large portion of what I assume was her colon and intestines hanging out. I'm guessing she had pulled more out and it was ripped in a couple places. She was still active and running around which is strange for someone with their insides hanging out. I took her to a vet but the bill they were anticipating was just more than my wife and I could handle at this time. I had to take her to my local pet store that sells beardies and give her to them. It beat my wife's idea of throwing her out in the woods like she did our sons hamsters lol. Hopefully they can see to it that she gets the help she deserves.


----------



## frogface

danny8524ever said:


> Thanks for the information guys. Sadly this morning when I woke up she had a large portion of what I assume was her colon and intestines hanging out. I'm guessing she had pulled more out and it was ripped in a couple places. She was still active and running around which is strange for someone with their insides hanging out. I took her to a vet but the bill they were anticipating was just more than my wife and I could handle at this time. I had to take her to my local pet store that sells beardies and give her to them. It beat my wife's idea of throwing her out in the woods like she did our sons hamsters lol. Hopefully they can see to it that she gets the help she deserves.


I'm sorry to hear that


----------



## SmallScaleDan

Prolapse can also be caused by dry, difficult to pass stools. I didn't see any pictures in your post, but he mentioned shriveled legs, and you mentioned dry conditions repeatedly. 

This is just a stab in the dark, but are you a bit lax on giving your dragon water? Do you have water in the cage at all? 

If you combine commercial diet with low water intake it's a short jump to dry stools. The dragon may prolapse while trying to pass those stools. 

The vet, if they know what they are doing, will hydrate the dragon, and treat similarly to the above mentioned bandage or gauze suggestion. 

They may even push it back in and temporarily sew up the cloaca (not my favorite method, but one that I've heard of more than once) 

If you want to self treat: You'll need to push the lining back inside the cloaca, and bandage it up so it can't swell up again. Make sure she's hydrated, and hope for the best. 

The blood is likely due to it drying out and becoming damaged on the cage decorations, so it may take some time for it to heal. 

You will need to change the bandage often as well, and make sure it stays clean. 

In short, take her to a reptile vet. This is serious, and complicated. Good luck. 

Dan


----------



## SmallScaleDan

Oh, I didn't see your last post. Sorry to hear that you couldn't help her. Hopefully it all turns out good for her. 

I must say that I don't feel any love for your wife's perspective. These are living creatures that she has taken the responsibility for the care of. I don't believe they should be tossed out like old toys when they break. Not a personal attack, just a statement of my point of view. 

Dan


----------



## BlueRidge

frogface said:


> I'm sorry to hear that


Yeah me too. Since beardies don't drink, a soak in a shallow pool a couple times a week does them wonders. They take up water through their vents. 

The pet store surely won't do anything. The vet bill can get over $500-600 quick and sadly most people won't pay that for a reptile.

Hell our dog got ahold of a chicken bone when he was a puppy and damaged a salivary gland and now gets drainage that collects in thr front of his neck. We drain it every couple months, but the vet wanted to do surgery that was $4500 and said it was complicated because of the facial nerves being in the way. We chose not to have the surgery.

Needless to say, sorry about your beardie and hopefully if you decide to get another one in the future you can correct any dietary issues you may have had so it doesnt happen again.


----------



## Shinosuke

danny8524ever said:


> throwing her out in the woods like she did our sons hamsters lol


I appreciate that you're trying to do what you can for her but it is never, ever ok to throw your pets out into the wild.

1. As was already mentioned, you took on the responsibility of caring for these animals - they can't do that for themselves since they've been taken out of their natural habitat. They're not disposable toys, tossing them when you don't want them anymore is selfish and cruel.

2. If they're suffering and you can't fix the issue (I unfortunately understand money issues), man (or woman) up and put them out of their misery yourself. Just because they're suffering where you can't see them instead of inside your home that doesn't mean they're suffering any less - in fact, they're probably even worse off since they're no longer in climate control or a known, safe area. Quickly put them down (freezing or drowning are not quick or pleasant ways to go), seal them in a bag, and dispose of them properly.

3. Most importantly, you have no idea what kind of damage they may do to the local wildlife. Even if they don't breed and become nuisance / pests (snakeheads, anyone?) they they could pass on diseases like chytrid that the local animals have no resistances for.

I really am sorry to hear about your beardie, but please be a responsible pet owner and do your best to teach your loved ones to be responsible as well.


----------



## Ed

JaredJ said:


> Just for Nutritional value
> 
> Cricket (Acheta Domesticus)
> Moisture 70.02
> Protein 18.5
> Cal% 0.08
> Fat 6.26
> Fiber 2.09
> Ash 1.29
> 
> Dubia Roach (Blaptica Dubia)
> Moisture 61.18
> Protein 35.6
> Cal% N/A
> Fat 6.75
> Fiber 3.25
> Ash 2.01


 
And what is the supposed reference for that analysis? For example, your crickets analysis goes against analysis completed for Acheta Domestica.. For example See 
http://www.prairieexotics.ca/info/Nutritional_Aspects_of_Insects_as_Food.pdf 

where crude protien is 64.9%
where fat is 13.8%... 
where fiber is 9.4%
where minerals are 5.7%
where calcium is 0.14%.. 

As for the argument about chitin, making a claim that one appears jucier isn't a valid comparision since you are also ignoring the fact that chitin isn't only on the surface of the insect, It is also a component of the structural support elements inside the insect (and this still is before we look at uric acid content..). 

Where is your proof that without gut loading crickets are "empty shells and are worthless unless gutloaded" ?

Some comments

Ed


----------



## Ed

JaredJ said:


> This is funny:
> 
> Crickets suck!
> 
> You know they do.
> 
> They chirp chirp chirp.
> They attract other nasties.
> They die and have a vulgar stench.
> They just don't die soon enough if ya ask me.
> 
> We believe they give our critters worms.
> Nematodes.
> That's when they don't spring to safety just as they're about to me dropped into a cage only to die later in a corner and stink.
> Did I mention they stink?
> 
> Cricket farms charge a lot of money. Apparently people still buy crickets.
> Who'd want to be in the business of raising these vermin anyway?
> Still, they give us a bonus.
> That's right. Free flour moths and fuzzy worms in every box.
> For a lot of money.
> 
> Crickets kill molting arachnids.
> Crickets escape and leave hard tiny crap pellets in their wake.
> Crickets have a life span of about 60 days. Two months too long.
> 
> Pet stores sell these vile creatures by the dozen.
> The kid who gets them for you will count and make sure there isn't thirteen.
> Eight will be alive when you get home. Probably the eight that can chirp.
> Female crickets have ovipositors.
> That's a fancy word for the thing pointing out of their butts.
> Uneaten crickets will stick these things in the substrate and later your cage will be overrun with flea-size baby crickets.
> Ain't that special?
> 
> Which brings me to the roach.
> Now there's a bug to be fond of.
> They breed like... well, roaches.
> They eat things that are free or cheap.
> They live a long time for a bug. Once a breeding colony is established you have almost free food forever.
> In an assortment of sizes.
> Hail the roach! The roach is good!


There is very little in the above paen that disproves that crickets are a suitable feeder and as I noted earlier you totally drop the entire issue that Blaptia dubia store uric acid a method of protein storage (and if the analysis is solely for total nitrogen (the least expensive test for protein content) then you will also have an incorrect protein content since it will also include the uric acid....

In your dogmatic claims above you add the belief that crickets are a source of nematode parasites to the animals.. this is another one of those dogmatic statements that have been passed around the hobby much like the claimn that mealworms will chew thier way out and/or mealworms are inferior to crickets as a food source due to high chitin levels. I would like to see peer reviewed proof the transmission since there isn't anything to support the claim that the roaches are also not a potential vector..... 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## JimO

This is not true - beardies do drink. They don't absorb water through their vents; they actively lick droplets from vegetation and other surfaces. In the wild, they get much of their moisture this way from dew drops present in the mornings. 

I dribble water over my dragon's nose and he laps it up. He'll drink more than a teaspoon of water in this manner several times a week. I also keep a small dish of water in his cage and he has become accustomed to drinking from it. They do not instinctively drink from a dish but can become acclimated to it.

Here is a good reference:

BEARDED DRAGON (Pogona vitticeps)



JaredJ said:


> Yeah me too. Since beardies don't drink, a soak in a shallow pool a couple times a week does them wonders. They take up water through their vents.


----------



## Brian317

JimO said:


> This is not true - beardies do drink. They don't absorb water through their vents; they actively lick droplets from vegetation and other surfaces. In the wild, they get much of their moisture this way from dew drops present in the mornings.
> 
> I dribble water over my dragon's nose and he laps it up. He'll drink more than a teaspoon of water in this manner several times a week. I also keep a small dish of water in his cage and he has become accustomed to drinking from it. They do not instinctively drink from a dish but can become acclimated to it.
> 
> Here is a good reference:
> 
> BEARDED DRAGON (Pogona vitticeps)


I'll second this. My beardie does drink water out of his bowl, as well as when I drip some on his nose.


----------



## BlueRidge

Wow, the bearded dragon books that I've read must have been wrong then. 

Sure beardies will drink when you pour water over their heads but they don't actively go around drinking water like a dog or a cat.

As far as crickets vs roaches I just go by what I've read. I'm no scientist like you are, Ed. There are some high end leading bearded dragon breeders that suggest the same. maybe the roach people are just putting palse info out on their website so that people will buy roaches instead crickets.

And the 'paen' was just put up to be funny, damn Ed. You really go after people who don't have the same opinions as you don't you?


----------



## frogface

Everyone knows that roaches are delicious and juicy. Nothing like watching the guts of a roach squirt out of your creatures mouth. Ed just wants you to show your work


----------



## Brian317

JaredJ said:


> Sure beardies will drink when you pour water over their heads but they don't actively go around drinking water like a dog or a cat.


If I remember next time, I'll snag a photo of mine drinking from his water bowl for you!


----------



## Herpelcano

This is almost funny to me. From the limited time I've spent on this forum Ed seems to be the greatest source of knowledge on this forum and offers the greatest ration of fact to opinion. Regardless I'd like to think out Los for a second. Has anyone ever done any form of study scientific or not to determine what our animals really need. Protien seems to be the biggest benefit of Dubai roaches but is this excess protien truly beneficial and if so does this benefit outweigh all of the other factors that may benefit or detriment our animals. For all we know thier may be a few specific proteins that have the greatest benefit to bearded dragons which is high in crickets and low in roaches. Also as far the comment about breeders switching to Dubai roaches, if theirs one thing highend breeders love to do its to jump on the latest fad.


----------



## Ed

JaredJ said:


> As far as crickets vs roaches I just go by what I've read. I'm no scientist like you are, Ed. There are some high end leading bearded dragon breeders that suggest the same. maybe the roach people are just putting palse info out on their website so that people will buy roaches instead crickets.


In much of the common non-peer reviewed literature, dogma is repeated becoming self reinforcing... and this often includes "respected breeders".. A classic example of this is how a "respected" chameleon breeder posted on a website in the early 1990s, that it was the retinyl content of the supplements killing chameleons (without any evidence other than supposition), causing a viral response with the result that the majority of supplements going with beta carotene as the sole source of vitamin A, condemning more than a decades worth of animals to conditional deficiencies of vitamin A...(which in turn resulted in a large body of dogma in the hobbies, to deal with the symptoms without resolving the cause). 




JaredJ said:


> And the 'paen' was just put up to be funny, damn Ed. You really go after people who don't have the same opinions as you don't you?


No, I go after bad information.. as many people who have been here for a long time can testify. Information like that of the roaches is self reinforcing if it isn't cut off early...since more people will post how wonderful they are referening the statements of success by others.... I expect people to be able to defend thier claims particularly when the claims go against the peer reviewed literature... 

As another classic example that goes against the idea that mealworms are inferior to crickets as a feeder (another firmly entrenched dogmatic claim) see for example The effects of prey species on food conversion efficiency and growth of an insectivorous lizard - Rich - 2008 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library, and http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_5/Issue_3/Gauthier_Lesbarreres_2010.pdf 


Some comments

Ed


----------



## Ed

Herpelcano said:


> Has anyone ever done any form of study scientific or not to determine what our animals really need. Protien seems to be the biggest benefit of Dubai roaches but is this excess protien truly beneficial and if so does this benefit outweigh all of the other factors that may benefit or detriment our animals.


Right off the bat, I'm going to suggest reading the nutritional chapter in Reptile Medicine and Surgery eds.. by Mader. The first edition is easier to understand than the second edition for the layperson (I have both the first and second editions). 
As noted in those tomes, herps in general fall well within the metabolic needs established for domestic species (which are the basis for all of the supplements available in the trade). To determine actual RDAs, would not only be expensive but would require the death of the animals on a large scale. The reason for this is that you have to start the species out on a diet that is deficient in a specific nutrient and then necropsy them looking for signs of deficiencies. Then the next group has the level of that one nutrient increased, and then necropsied. rinse repeat until signs of deficiency are no longer seen, and then continue to increase the levels until signs of toxicity are noted on necropsy. Then start all over with the next nutrient... As you can see this would require a lot of animals which are effectively tested to destruction. Fortunately this is not required, since herps in general and frogs in specific respond to the general levels seen in other species with some tweaks (like beta carotene either not being converted to retinol/retinyl (but this is the same for felids)). 



Herpelcano said:


> For all we know thier may be a few specific proteins that have the greatest benefit to bearded dragons which is high in crickets and low in roaches. Also as far the comment about breeders switching to Dubai roaches, if theirs one thing highend breeders love to do its to jump on the latest fad.


Are you referring to things like cats being obligate carnivores since they require taurine in thier diet? In those cases it isn't the specific protien but a building block of the protein, a type of amino acids. These sorts of nutritional issues are highly unlikely to occur in omnivores since they are able to aquire thier metabolic needs from both plant and animal proteins. 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## diggenem

JaredJ said:


> This is funny:
> 
> Crickets suck!
> 
> You know they do.
> 
> They chirp chirp chirp.
> They attract other nasties.
> They die and have a vulgar stench.
> They just don't die soon enough if ya ask me.
> 
> We believe they give our critters worms.
> Nematodes.
> That's when they don't spring to safety just as they're about to me dropped into a cage only to die later in a corner and stink.
> Did I mention they stink?
> 
> Cricket farms charge a lot of money. Apparently people still buy crickets.
> Who'd want to be in the business of raising these vermin anyway?
> Still, they give us a bonus.
> That's right. Free flour moths and fuzzy worms in every box.
> For a lot of money.
> 
> Crickets kill molting arachnids.
> Crickets escape and leave hard tiny crap pellets in their wake.
> Crickets have a life span of about 60 days. Two months too long.
> 
> Pet stores sell these vile creatures by the dozen.
> The kid who gets them for you will count and make sure there isn't thirteen.
> Eight will be alive when you get home. Probably the eight that can chirp.
> Female crickets have ovipositors.
> That's a fancy word for the thing pointing out of their butts.
> Uneaten crickets will stick these things in the substrate and later your cage will be overrun with flea-size baby crickets.
> Ain't that special?
> 
> Which brings me to the roach.
> Now there's a bug to be fond of.
> They breed like... well, roaches.
> They eat things that are free or cheap.
> They live a long time for a bug. Once a breeding colony is established you have almost free food forever.
> In an assortment of sizes.
> Hail the roach! The roach is good!


I guess it's safe to say you hate crickets. 

Sent from my HTC Evo 4G using Tapatalk 2


----------



## BlueRidge

Ed said:


> And what is the supposed reference for that analysis? For example, your crickets analysis goes against analysis completed for Acheta Domestica.. For example See
> http://www.prairieexotics.ca/info/Nutritional_Aspects_of_Insects_as_Food.pdf
> 
> where crude protien is 64.9%
> where fat is 13.8%...
> where fiber is 9.4%
> where minerals are 5.7%
> where calcium is 0.14%..
> 
> As for the argument about chitin, making a claim that one appears jucier isn't a valid comparision since you are also ignoring the fact that chitin isn't only on the surface of the insect, It is also a component of the structural support elements inside the insect (and this still is before we look at uric acid content..).
> 
> Where is your proof that without gut loading crickets are "empty shells and are worthless unless gutloaded" ?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Isnt that what a majority of the cricket farms breed, Acheta Domestica or have they all switched to Gryllus assimilis due to the virus that was recently spread? I don't know because I don't really police the cricket farms I just buy crickets but I thought it was known that crickets commonly carry pinworms or other parasites...hell roaches can too I guess. After all it is a roach.

Think for a second about where most hobbyists get their crickets from. I've seen many many pet stores get crickets only to dump them in big white tubs with halves of potato or water sponges for moisture. Rarely have I come across a pet store that actually fed their crickets a healthy diet. Crickets are practically nutritional junk after 24hrs, I would risk a guess that a half of a potato does nothing for a cricket but give some moisture. I understand that this is in no way a scientific study as I haven't visited or recorded the husbandry of enough pet stores across the country to support a hypothesis like this.


I must apologize if you feel I am spreading dogma bit I didn't know that any information must be peer reviewed before being accepted as common practice. I am a simple hobbyist, I am not a licensed zoologist or a biologist with a Phd. I get my information from fellow hobbyists, breeders and the books they both write. If their books are putting out misinformation then damn them. Maybe it's just wording but alot the books I have read talk about the nutritional deficiencies of crickets and the need to gutload, provide a varied diet, and dust foods with calcium/vitamins. Why would myself or other commonfolk read a surgical medical journal on reptiles? Again... not a zoologist, just a common hobbyist.

I do have to say that I understand why other forums post about some here on DB being one-sided and needing to have it their way. I myself love DB, it's faster, has less ads and I like the people but you can't have it all.

I bow to you Ed and will no longer post any dogma unless I can link the references of the journal or scientific media I got them from. I will limit my posts to questions about basements and pictures of members tanks. <bow>


----------



## SmallScaleDan

Beardies don't read books! 


When they are young, I like to float little bits of Kale on their water bowl. When they go to eat it, they come into contact with the water, and learn that it is there. Over time they will drink from the bowl. 

I understand the pros and cons of crickets vs. roaches, but I don't understand how anyone could say that the single most used feeder insect for decades is worthless! How in the world have all these reptiles been kept alive on these shells? lol. 

If you have a beardy, I suggest you feed it crickets.... and roaches... and greens, and superworms, and meal worms, and silk worms, and whatever other creepy crunchy crawly things you come across. They will eat them all.  

Dan


----------



## Ed

JaredJ said:


> Isnt that what a majority of the cricket farms breed, Acheta Domestica or have they all switched to Gryllus assimilis due to the virus that was recently spread? I don't know because I don't really police the cricket farms I just buy crickets but I thought it was known that crickets commonly carry pinworms or other parasites...hell roaches can too I guess. After all it is a roach.


There are still cricket farms that are running virus free cultures of Acheta domestica. Also some farms are switching to Gryllus signatus... 

As for the pinworms and other parasites, that has been thrown about in the hobby for years without any concrete proof... It is due to animals being negative on fecal checks and then suddenly showing up positive.. Instead of looking at the fact that 
1) the animal could have been asymptomatic but infected (not shedding) when the fecal was taken

2) that the contamination occured due to some other potential source (not washing hands, using tools between cages, recycling materials from one cage to another

3) pinworms (oxyurids) do not use arthropods as a vector, they are infectious through the direct fecal-oral route. Since they are fairly host specific, that would require fecal material, that is infected for a specific pinworm for a host to fall into the culture and then make it (through dusting etc) into the enclosure and be consumed.. 
In theory, if ingested (and for some reason not digested) by an arthropod, and then before the gut contents of the arthropod turn over (which is something like 6-12 hours in a cricket) it could be possible for a vertebrate to contract a pinworm infection but in addition since pinworms are somewhat host specific, it would also have to be the particular pinworm that infects that species.. So if we look at everything that is required for crickets to be a vector, it is highly unlikely to even be a source for even a small percentage of cases that the hobby lays at the feet of using crickets. 

4) roach culture is susceptiable to all of the same sources of contamination that crickets are except that most people culture roaches in the same area/room with thier animals which incrediably increases the chances of cross contamination..including cross infection with the parasites that specifically infect thier own pets...... As an example if a phorid fly or other fly has ever gotten into your roach culture, then it could be contaminated.. unlikely to be a worm parasites, however coccidians and some tapeworms do use arthropods particularly cockroaches as vectors. One of the common tapeworms seen in captive herps is the rodent tapeworm but not as a complete adult instead, since herps are not normal hosts, they simply encyst in the tissues and wait for it to be consumed by a rodent..... 



JaredJ said:


> Think for a second about where most hobbyists get their crickets from. I've seen many many pet stores get crickets only to dump them in big white tubs with halves of potato or water sponges for moisture. Rarely have I come across a pet store that actually fed their crickets a healthy diet. Crickets are practically nutritional junk after 24hrs, I would risk a guess that a half of a potato does nothing for a cricket but give some moisture. I understand that this is in no way a scientific study as I haven't visited or recorded the husbandry of enough pet stores across the country to support a hypothesis like this.


Your citing opinion as fact. 
Please supply information that after 24 hours the crickets are nutritional junk. I'm going to tell you that this is not supported by the literature or what is known about crickets.. For example see the discussion in Mader's text on it... 



JaredJ said:


> I must apologize if you feel I am spreading dogma bit I didn't know that any information must be peer reviewed before being accepted as common practice. I am a simple hobbyist, I am not a licensed zoologist or a biologist with a Phd. I get my information from fellow hobbyists, breeders and the books they both write. If their books are putting out misinformation then damn them. Maybe it's just wording but alot the books I have read talk about the nutritional deficiencies of crickets and the need to gutload, provide a varied diet, and dust foods with calcium/vitamins. Why would myself or other commonfolk read a surgical medical journal on reptiles? Again... not a zoologist, just a common hobbyist.


There is a lot of dogma about gut loading floating out there and the vast majority of them do not understand what is going on with the diet they are feeding the insects... Instead there are many "recipes" which are based on nothing more than dogma and/or some belief about what they are offering the crickets is supposed to provide... Also when did I stop being a hobbyist? I'm going to say I've been a hobbyist for more than 30 years... 

As a caretaker for these animals, you should be looking to provide the best care for the frogs (or other animals) and blindly accepting what someone says without checking as I have noted with the vitamin A reference has been shown to be potentially damaging to the animals in our care and in the case of mealworms to supply suboptimum care.... 



JaredJ said:


> I do have to say that I understand why other forums post about some here on DB being one-sided and needing to have it their way. I myself love DB, it's faster, has less ads and I like the people but you can't have it all.


Nice backhanded insult attempts.. So you would prefer a forum that encourages the publication of bad information which can hurt your animals in the long run just so you can make your own claims without having to provide justification when challenged? 

Suit yourself. 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## Ed

SmallScaleDan said:


> They will eat them all.


Not only will they eat them all, they won't refuse poisonous or foul tasting insects either.. They are known to eat fireflies and die from the toxins.. 

In one diet study, they were one of the very few animals to eat bombadier beetles see </TITLE> <META NAME="Author" CONTENT="Bearded Dragons"> <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) [Netscape]"> <title>Fireflies - Deadly to Bearded Dragons 

Ed


----------



## danny8524ever

Thanks for the responses and condolences everyone. I was very upset to get rid of her because she was very well tempered. She would sit on my shoulder and wasn't even afraid to let the cats come sniff her. She wouldn't even hiss or swipe her tail at them. She was also half German Giant so that upsets me very much too. Sadly the wife and I just weren't in a good financial spot to take on a bill like that now so hopefully the pet store did something for her. I do still have a young male but he isn't a giant so next time I'll see if I can find another giant female. 

I fully understand the responsibilityies I take when I own animals. My wife not so much even though I've tried to teach her. I didn't know she released the hamsters until after the fact and I was very upset. I also don't let her touch my fish or frog friends because every time I've let her try to change the water in my fish tanks and clean them she has killed all the fish. So she's lucky I even let her look at my frogs lol. Just kidding but seriously her touch is death to the cute and not so cuddly lol. 

As for feeding and watering my beardies. I had two fake rck bowls in the bottom of the tank. One for food usually that fresh cut veggie mix I can buy at the pet store or I'll dice up my own kale, carrots, squash, and spinach. I change it out and clean the bowls day along with the water. I would see her sitting in her water bowl a lot and I have seen her drinking from it as well. I also would throw several dusted crickets in there with her every other day. She never seemed to have any problems before this prolapse and even with it she was still pooping so I don't think dehydration was the problem but I'm not sure. If it was a parasite then that makes me ve more concerned because it either came from the fresh veggies or the crickets. If it's the veggies then my other male beardie might have them, if it's the crickets then my frogs and male beardie could have them.


----------



## Ed

danny8524ever said:


> buy at the pet store or I'll dice up my own kale, carrots, squash, and spinach.


Was this your routine greens choices for the bearded? 

Ed


----------



## danny8524ever

Yeah usually. Sometimes I'd be missing squash or spinach.


----------



## Ed

danny8524ever said:


> Yeah usually. Sometimes I'd be missing squash or spinach.


I'm not worried about the squash or carrots (although sweet potatos and yams are good substitutes with a better shelf life. Chop them and microwave then slightly until soft, allow to cool and add to the salad...) 

I'm more concerned about using those two greens as the primary source of leafy vegetables for the animals. While they are good sources of various nutrients, using them as a consistent or sole source of greens is a potential problem. 
Spinach and kale are both relatively high in oxalic acid which can inhibit or reduce calcium, and iron uptake during digestion. In addition to the oxalic acid issues, kale and other members of the cruciferous group of vegetables are potential sources of chemicals that can interfere with the function of the thyroid (goitrogenic). and can cause issues with the liver and kidney when included in excess (which can be as little as 2.5% of the diet (for a quick example see the impact of this cousin of kale ScienceDirect.com - Food and Chemical Toxicology - Effects of high levels of Brussels sprouts in the diet of rats ). If you need a staple green for your bearded diet, I would suggest using romaine as the staple and then adding in which ever greens are in season and relatively inexpensive. A rotation of the greens is the best way to avoid conditional nutrition issues with salad preperation.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Brian317

Good Info Ed. I tend to feed my bearded a mix of mostly fresh collard/mustard greens with the occasional mix of cilantro, strawberries, peas, ect. I would like to try Dandelion Greens and also squash with future feedings...

I found this guide and it is full of good nutritional information on food items for bearded dragons: Nutrition Content


----------



## Ed

Some of the information on that site is okay to use provided you really understand what is going on in the diet.. For example the author doesn't point out that vitamin A in the form of carotenoids doesn't compete for uptake with D3 and E.. so the recommendation on the supplements is somewhat incorrect (a mistake I was guilty of originally)... This also skews the perception of which foods are best for the lizard. 

A second questionable point is the reference to oral D3 possibly not being well utilized in the diet, I was unable to find a reference that supports that position. Instead (as with other herp taxa) what is in the recent literature is showing is that allowing behavioral regulation through basking enables the lizard to achieve a higher circulating level of D3 metabolites than is possible with oral D3 (one of the differences is that D3 in it's various metabolic stages also can have hormonal like actions). See for example (sorry not free access, ScienceDirect.com - Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part B: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology - Effects of vitamin D3 supplementation and UVb exposure on the growth and plasma concentration of vitamin D3 metabolites in juvenile bearded drago and 


(free access) Serum Vitamin D Levels and Skeletal and General Development of Young Bearded Dragon Lizards (Pogona vitticeps), underDifferent Conditions of UV-B Radiation Exposure (although the authors in the second paper don't appear to account for the thermal isomerization in the formation of D3 as part of the study..) 

With respect to the greens, if you have access to dandelions that aren't sprayed, you can also offer the flowers in the spring as part of the diet. Also many vegetarian and omniverous herps willl take forsythia flowers which can be forced throughout the winter. 

Collard greens are also part of the cruciferous group and should be considered to not be ideal as the sole source of greens in the diet. 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## JimO

My dragon will eat small cubes of the cricket food put out by repashy (Bugs Burger I believe), which gives a whole new meaning to gut loading .


----------



## danny8524ever

Thanks for the info guys. I was not aware of the need for rotation of veggies. I was just told to make the mix that I've been making and that the mix should cover the nutritional needs. Good to know that now. Thanks.


----------



## Stoney

I just joined this forum because I finally found someone who is knowledgeable and credible and who backs things up with actual studies or medical information. I am so tired of all the myths and "pseudo experts" giving out wrong information, and imho ED is a breath of fresh air. I am not sure why people would feel offended when he posts factual information that conflicts with popular erroneous info - seems like it's the phony experts people should be getting angry at. 

I do hope people keep asking questions or even stating what they think they know, so that Ed can confirm or disbunk the info. Reading the posts and then reading Ed's responses have been so helpful and educational for me! The correct info would never have been posted were it not for the comments. I hope that Ed will correct me anytime I post wrong info, as my goal is to take care of my dragon in the best way I can - that became my obligation when I offered to take her (begged is more like it) when I heard someone on the train saying he was dropping his dragon at the SPCA a little over a year ago. 

When I first got her, I studied everything I could find to try to figure out what was best for him/her (the owner told me it was a male; the vet told me it is a female). I printed out list after list of good/bad/poisonous foods, then went through the several dozen lists and found some said foods were good that other lists said were very bad. So I took the list that seemed most accurate, and noted where other lists said something different. I only feed my dragon foods that are not listed as bad on any of the lists. I found this site because I can't get fresh dandelion greens outside for the duration of the winter, and wondered if she could eat forsythia before clipping forsythia branches and bringing them inside to bloom. (I had the dickens of a time keeping her from running toward the Christmas tree and climbing it, because apparently evergreens are not good for dragons - otherwise I would have let her climb to her heart's content!) Anyway, I was so happy to find Ed and his expertise, AND that I can force bloom my forsythia without worrying about the dragon getting hold of some (I hope the leaves are also ok for her to feed on!). 

TY Ed, and everyone, for this excellent forum and resource!!


----------



## Woodswalker

If you struggle to find organic dandelion greens in the winter, keep in mind how easy it is to grow dandelions. Growing your own indoors would also allow you to optimize their nutritional value with the right soil and lighting with some research.


----------



## boabab95

This might also be of interest to some

The diet of free-roaming Australian Central Bearded Dragons (Pogona vitticeps).



> Abstract
> The central bearded dragon (Pogona vitticeps) is one of the most popular pet lizards. However, little is known regarding their nutrient requirement, or their natural diet. Therefore, the stomach contents of 14 free-roaming P. vitticeps were determined by flushing. These stomach contents were described taxonomically, and analyzed for crude protein content as well as fatty acid content and composition. Most of the dry matter intake was in the form of animal material (61%) stemming from nine arthropod orders. The most abundant were alates of the termite Drepanotermes sp., accounting for 95% of the total number of prey items and more than half of the total dry matter (DM) intake. Plant material contributed 16% of the total DM intake. The diets were high in crude protein (41-50% DM) and the total fatty acid content was 14-27% of the DM intake. The main fatty acid was C18:1n9c (51-56% of total fatty acids), and polyunsaturated fatty acids (n3 and n6) comprised 6-8% of the total fat intake. Our data suggest that P. vitticeps is an opportunistic predator, which exploits the seasonal availability of prey. Based on our data and other studies, a diet consisting of several insect species, supplemented with leafy vegetables, rich in n3 FA's, would best resemble the expected natural diet of P. vitticeps.


Unfortunately I haven't found a free copy.


----------



## Ed

boabab95 said:


> Unfortunately I haven't found a free copy.


If it is published in ZooBiology then you'll rarely find a free access copy. Those are the ones I've had to pay for most frequently (and I'll probably have to do so to get a copy of that one....). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## boabab95

Ed said:


> If it is published in ZooBiology then you'll rarely find a free access copy. Those are the ones I've had to pay for most frequently (and I'll probably have to do so to get a copy of that one....).
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Looks like I'm stuck with the abstract for a while then!


----------

