# Need help with terribilis eggs



## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

Ive been breeding frogs for a few years and have never had as much trouble as im having with terribilis eggs. I have a group of 5. They gave me an ok number of offspring last year but this year im just getting bad clutch after bad clutch. The clutches look perfectly fine and healthy when layed and appear solid black. After 3 days each egg is usually half white and half black. Then suddenly after 4-5 days everything starts to turn to an offwhite grey and development ceases. The "straight line" that typically forms on eggs (the body/tail of a developing tadpole) never shows, the eggs fail before reaching that point. Does anyone have any tips or tricks they typically use on terribilis eggs? My adults are fed well and are super fat. They had a 4 month dry period and have been back to wet season for about a month now and have layed over 200 eggs that all went bad. Very frustrating! I have tried pulling eggs out and putting them in humid deli cups (with sphagnum moss on the bottom under the petri dish) and ive tried leaving them in the tank. Both methods show no tadpole development so far. 

And like i said these same frogs gave me healthy offspring last year but this year im not seeing anything. Last year there were plenty of bad eggs too but at least maybe 25% or so were good. I havent changed anything, id just like a method that yeilds higher success! Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## holmarie (Nov 30, 2015)

I have generally found that time is simply the best way to deal with this. When I had breeding terribilis, they would often do this for the first 4-6 weeks of the breeding season. If it persisted, I would separate them and bring them back in 2 weeks. It's not necessarily fertilized eggs going bad, but rather the male may not even be fertilizing the eggs.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Are you using a supplement with Vitamin A?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Robert...I feel 'ya.....am having the very same problem...doesn't seem to make sense--and I've done exactly what you have done..no success yet. I think I will try to remove one of the pair and keep it out for a period of time to see whether it does make a difference...mine go bad in the same number of days, and the appearance is just as you describe. Would someone chime in and tell me what season is the optimum for terriblis?


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

Yes i am using a vitamin A. Im half glad to see im not the only one experiencing this yet upset that it seems to be such a common issue. Im going to pull the next few clutches as soon as i see them so i can keep a better eye on them. Earlier today i had a massive clutch of 31 all go bad, keep the responses coming though i appreciate the feed


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I feel your pain; I have been having similar issues with my mints. I had been meaning to post about this. I traded one of my three females for a calling male and had been waiting months for something to happen. Finally, I got eggs and was excited, but then the clutch went bad. I thought that this was no big deal because most of my frogs take a while to get things right at first. 6 clutches later, I finally got 4 tadpoles out of my latest clutch. I have been supplementing with Repashy Calcium Plus every feeding (every 2 days or occasionally every day) and with Repashy Vitamin A every couple of weeks (I increased this more recently, as well). I am hoping that this latest batch is an indicator of things to come, but they haven't laid in a couple of weeks, so these may be my only tads of the season from them. It is now getting cool enough that they may be shutting down. I noticed that they are hanging out up closer to the light now than they were before. Could be unrelated, but who knows? Anyway, these guys are the fussiest breeders I have ever had. I have read lots of threads (sorry, Judy!) where others have had similar problems, too, so maybe we are missing something. I wish I knew. I wish all of you luck in getting fertile clutches.

Mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Robert.hallam said:


> Yes i am using a vitamin A


What is the source of vitamin A? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Are you using new petri dishes? Did you disinfect them? 

some comments 

Ed


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

Im using all repashy supplements. calcium plus, super cal LoD, superpig, and vitamin A plus. Calcium plus every feeding and i rotate the rest. 

As far as petri dishes go, i give them a ling soak/scrub with hot water every so often maybe once or twice a month


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

Robert.hallam said:


> Im using all repashy supplements. calcium plus, super cal LoD, superpig, and vitamin A plus. Calcium plus every feeding and i rotate the rest.


how often do you replace your suppliments? i read they should be replaced every 6 months

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/86495-how-long-does-repashy-vitamin-last.html


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

I really dont think its a vitamin problem to be honest, my other frogs are still having healthy eggs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Robert.hallam said:


> Im using all repashy supplements. calcium plus, super cal LoD, superpig, and vitamin A plus. Calcium plus every feeding and i rotate the rest.
> 
> As far as petri dishes go, i give them a ling soak/scrub with hot water every so often maybe once or twice a month


The reason I asked about the petri dishes is that the plastic in them may be able to bind to certain things but this sounds like it isn't a concern. 

As for the vitamins, one of the things that has shown up in the vitamin A supplements is that Repashy Calcium plus supplies sufficient vitamin A provided the frogs were not deficient to start (before breeding began). The anecdotal reports is that it also requires at least twice a month additional supplementation to turn that around (and this can still take several months before positive results are noticed). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

I was having exactly the same problem. I have three, 2 males 1 female. First year they laid good eggs every 10 days or so. Then after about a year the eggs started going bad just like what you said. Sometimes they would last longer, but they always died before hatching. My frogs were very over weight and that (or something related to their weight - like perhaps too fatty of insect foods - they eat pretty much everything crickets, fruit flies, meal worms, wax worms, earth worms, etc.) was evidently causing poor eggs. I put them on a diet, they lost weight, and slowly over time the eggs started lasting longer, then a few hatched, then a few morphed (but died), and now the most recent clutch all morphed and are doing fine. Roadrunner helped me a lot and got me on track with them.


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## Imperialterrib (Sep 3, 2013)

I had the same problem with my terribilis until I made a change of removing the eggs the same day that they laid the eggs in the evening.


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

Imperialterrib said:


> I had the same problem with my terribilis until I made a change of removing the eggs the same day that they laid the eggs in the evening.


Yes i have begun doing this now, no data to report yet but i have 2 clutches out of the tank that were pulled immediately. No signs of development or decay yet.


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

tardis101 said:


> I was having exactly the same problem. I have three, 2 males 1 female. First year they laid good eggs every 10 days or so. Then after about a year the eggs started going bad just like what you said. Sometimes they would last longer, but they always died before hatching. My frogs were very over weight and that (or something related to their weight - like perhaps too fatty of insect foods - they eat pretty much everything crickets, fruit flies, meal worms, wax worms, earth worms, etc.) was evidently causing poor eggs. I put them on a diet, they lost weight, and slowly over time the eggs started lasting longer, then a few hatched, then a few morphed (but died), and now the most recent clutch all morphed and are doing fine. Roadrunner helped me a lot and got me on track with them.


Thats very interesting but when you say you put them on a diet what do you mean? Switched them back to just flies? Mine are immensely obese, they eat a mix of flies and crickets. I always figured plumping them up would be beneficial


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

Ed said:


> Robert.hallam said:
> 
> 
> > Im using all repashy supplements. calcium plus, super cal LoD, superpig, and vitamin A plus. Calcium plus every feeding and i rotate the rest.
> ...


Well i dont use every supplement on every feeding, i only use the vitamin A occasionally. Just for the heck of it i sterilized all my petris. We'll see if i have any luck.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Robert.hallam said:


> Well i dont use every supplement on every feeding, i only use the vitamin A occasionally. Just for the heck of it i sterilized all my petris. We'll see if i have any luck.


And this could easily be why the frogs have a deficiency of vitamin A. The formation of eggs is heavily influenced by the availability of fat in the frogs so the frogs are more than capable of producing clutch after clutch of eggs that aren't going to complete development due to insufficient vitamin A. This is because the lack of vitamin A prevents the proper development of a number of organs including the pronephros which is what is used initially as the kidney. 

Vitamin A deficiency is a well documented phenomenon in captive frogs in both institutional and hobby collections. Its only been in the last few years that the extent of this problem become fairly well known and then the available supplements to resolve the problem. If you can get access to a copy, if I remember correctly the amphibian chapter here has some of the data Divers, Stephen J., and Douglas R. Mader, eds. Reptile medicine and surgery. Elsevier Health Sciences, 2005.

The frogs should be supplemented at each feeding otherwise your really impacting their overall nutrition. As a consequence even if you began to supplement them at each feeding it could take several months for them to replenish the stores sufficiently that the tadpoles will complete development. 
You can do this as while encouraging the frogs to lose weight by simply reducing the number of feedings per week while supplementing with a preformed vitamin A at each mean. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

Ed said:


> Robert.hallam said:
> 
> 
> > Well i dont use every supplement on every feeding, i only use the vitamin A occasionally. Just for the heck of it i sterilized all my petris. We'll see if i have any luck.
> ...


I feel like you misread what i said. I use calcium plus every feeding. Which you said has sufficient vitamin A. PLUS in addition i also use repashy vitamin A occasionally. Like once a week.


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## Robert.hallam (Oct 26, 2012)

But anyway guys i finally see some developement taking place again  i have begun pulling eggs the day they are layed and im seeing a lot of healthy tads forming for the first time all breeding season. Thanks a lot for all the comments


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Robert.hallam said:


> I feel like you misread what i said. I use calcium plus every feeding. Which you said has sufficient vitamin A. PLUS in addition i also use repashy vitamin A occasionally. Like once a week.


Okay I did misread it. 

Congratulations on the eggs developing properly. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## peiji (Sep 16, 2014)

I'm having an identical problem. It's been about 4-5 mo. of this. I do clean the petri dishes in a bleach solution and rinse well. 

What I don't understand is that it appears that the eggs aren't even being fertilized. How does pulling them early help? They are black and appear to be fine but after several days they just never start forming and eventually go bad. I've experimented with pulling them earlier, later, etc. and nothing seems to make a difference. Maybe I'm still not catching them early enough.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If the eggs are going to be fertile then it doesn't matter when you pull them as the male deposits the sperm before the female begins to lay the eggs. 

See some of these discussions http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/169818-new-laid-eggs-today.html#post1864658

some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Robert.hallam said:


> Thats very interesting but when you say you put them on a diet what do you mean? Switched them back to just flies? Mine are immensely obese, they eat a mix of flies and crickets. I always figured plumping them up would be beneficial


Sorry Robert I was gone for three weeks. I fed sparingly, just a few dusted fruit flies a couple times per week. I was feeding just about every day and I fed lots of different foods. 

I now have 8 froglets, 6 tads about 2 weeks old, and 8 more tads that hatched today. I think I would have had a full clutch on that last one (which was 14 eggs), but I forgot to mist one day and several dried out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tardis101 said:


> I was having exactly the same problem. I have three, 2 males 1 female. First year they laid good eggs every 10 days or so. Then after about a year the eggs started going bad just like what you said. Sometimes they would last longer, but they always died before hatching. My frogs were very over weight and that (or something related to their weight - like perhaps too fatty of insect foods - they eat pretty much everything crickets, fruit flies, meal worms, wax worms, earth worms, etc.) was evidently causing poor eggs. I put them on a diet, they lost weight, and slowly over time the eggs started lasting longer, then a few hatched, then a few morphed (but died), and now the most recent clutch all morphed and are doing fine. Roadrunner helped me a lot and got me on track with them.


I had to check my facts before I came back to this. One of the things to remember that this could still have been a vitamin deficiency; the reason I had to check my facts is that I wanted to make sure that the loss of fat during weight loss is correlated with increased levels of the fat soluble vitamins in the blood as these vitamins are made available during the metabolization of the adipose vitamin stores. This doesn't appear to be the case for vitamin A but it does appear to occur with the metabolites for D3 and the tocopherols (vitamin E). Inadequate D3 and E can cause high levels of infertility (cross multiple taxa) and high levels of mortality before hatching (bird models). Given the highly conserved metabolic processes there is a very good chance that these can be applied to the frogs. 


This is possibly an under explored aspect of the fat soluble vitamins as it is possible to have less than optimal levels of the fat soluble vitamins in the blood while there may be ten times that level in the fat cells. There appears to be some sort of correlation (and I'm going to stress appears) with obesity possible deficiencies in the blood volume despite adequate stores in the adipose tissues. 

The reason I'm not more definite is that the data is limited (but consistent across taxa) and needs a good bit more follow-up. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

so we truly are hostage to the supplements having the right elements, i.e., vitamin E as well as D3....even if kept in the refrigerator are these particular vitamins apt to become ineffective sooner than the six-month period of time that is usually recommended? Any other way that these can be supplied?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> so we truly are hostage to the supplements having the right elements, i.e., vitamin E as well as D3....even if kept in the refrigerator are these particular vitamins apt to become ineffective sooner than the six-month period of time that is usually recommended? Any other way that these can be supplied?


Hi Judy,

I think your taking away the wrong message here. First off I'm going to stress something again .... there is a strong correlation between obesity and deficiencies of D3 and possible E but correlation doesn't mean causation. At this time it is clear that obese individuals are at high risk of D3 deficiency despite having adequate stores of the vitamin/hormone in the fat stores. 

Now does this mean that obesity causes the deficiencies or does deficiency in D3 support becoming obese or are both of these due to a third issue that hasn't been found as of yet? Its too soon to know. 

It is possible (and relatively easy) to become deficient on many vitamins even when you take the recommended amounts. This is why I periodically note that all because your using good supplements it doesn't mean that a deficiency isn't present. This is because depending on demand by the body may exceed the supply. 

Back to the topic at hand ... obesity is a problem for captive amphibians for a number of reasons which have been noted repeatedly but we potentially have another reason why obesity is bad for the frogs as well. 

*As there is a link between deficiencies and obesity if we reduce the obesity we should impact the deficiencies of D3. As D3 is important for fertility and embryonic growth insufficient D3 deposition in the yolk will affect development and success. * This is what I think the real takeaway is from the data at this point.*I'm also going to stress that attempting to add additional D3 via diet is not a good way to resolve this issue instead of having the frogs lose weight. The reason is that this can then result in D3 toxicity. Instead people should concentrate on the reduction of obesity in the animals.* 

Tocopherols (vitamin E) are also fat stored but if your using a fruit fly media that contains more than just potatoes and yeasts the flies should modest levels of tocopherols, in addition to those found in the supplements. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I think I read it right, Ed. You are saying that I, personally, should be taking a D3 supplement  

Kidding aside, it makes sense to me that terribilis would be the species most likely to suffer from obesity-related D3 deficiencies because they are the most sedentary of all of my frogs. I used to associate their lack of movement when I open the front glass with belligerence, but it may just be that they can't be bothered to move  Momentum is a powerful thing... 

I have also tried to trigger breeding in them with added feeding and that may just be compounding the problem. 

Thanks very much for sharing this. I think understanding supplementation (and diet in general) is one of the most important things for the long-term health of our frogs. I have so much to learn.

Mark



Ed said:


> Hi Judy,
> 
> I think your taking away the wrong message here. First off I'm going to stress something again .... there is a strong correlation between obesity and deficiencies of D3 and possible E but correlation doesn't mean causation. At this time it is clear that obese individuals are at high risk of D3 deficiency despite having adequate stores of the vitamin/hormone in the fat stores.
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Encyclia said:


> Kidding aside, it makes sense to me that terribilis would be the species most likely to suffer from obesity-related D3 deficiencies because they are the most sedentary of all of my frogs. I used to associate their lack of movement when I open the front glass with belligerence, but it may just be that they can't be bothered to move


Keep in mind that their flight distance is going to be pretty small as there isn't much they have to worry about in the wild. When this is combined with food conditioning it really shouldn't be a surprise that they don't move much. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

good stuff, Ed......think I will have to read it a couple of times--as usual....and I liked the part that describes how the terriblis really don't have to be in the "escape" mode like other frogs...Thanks....


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

I have raised many terriblilis eggs to tads and froglets and have found the eggs and early embryos are very susceptible to too much moisture. My best method is to pull the eggs when laid in the Petri dish and put the Petri dish in a sandwich size Tupperware container with a moist paper towel under the Petri dish then close the lid. Do not mist them just open the container to make sure the paper towel is moist. Once you have fully formed tads (black and moving)in the egg sack I lightly mist and watch them and add water when they break from the egg sacks. This has worked for me and I get a very successful egg to Tad to juvie rate. I do supplement with repashy calcium plus refrigerated and watch my dates to be sure they are not over 6 months old.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Ed said:


> I had to check my facts before I came back to this. One of the things to remember that this could still have been a vitamin deficiency; the reason I had to check my facts is that I wanted to make sure that the loss of fat during weight loss is correlated with increased levels of the fat soluble vitamins in the blood as these vitamins are made available during the metabolization of the adipose vitamin stores. This doesn't appear to be the case for vitamin A but it does appear to occur with the metabolites for D3 and the tocopherols (vitamin E). Inadequate D3 and E can cause high levels of infertility (cross multiple taxa) and high levels of mortality before hatching (bird models). Given the highly conserved metabolic processes there is a very good chance that these can be applied to the frogs.
> 
> 
> This is possibly an under explored aspect of the fat soluble vitamins as it is possible to have less than optimal levels of the fat soluble vitamins in the blood while there may be ten times that level in the fat cells. There appears to be some sort of correlation (and I'm going to stress appears) with obesity possible deficiencies in the blood volume despite adequate stores in the adipose tissues.
> ...


I don't find the argument compelling enough just yet. I think it's interesting though and it's a possibility. The frogs were fed more with the same dusting regime that I feed them now. However they were eating more before so they would have been getting more of all the supplements. Now they are still getting the same brand etc. of supplements on the same schedule as they were before, just less food. They are on the same schedule as all the other species I have all of which are breeding successfully (except I have seen no breeding attempts from my splashbacks). This does not lend itself to the conclusion that is was lack of specific vitamins.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tardis101 said:


> I don't find the argument compelling enough just yet. I think it's interesting though and it's a possibility. The frogs were fed more with the same dusting regime that I feed them now. However they were eating more before so they would have been getting more of all the supplements. Now they are still getting the same brand etc. of supplements on the same schedule as they were before, just less food. They are on the same schedule as all the other species I have all of which are breeding successfully (except I have seen no breeding attempts from my splashbacks). This does not lend itself to the conclusion that is was lack of specific vitamins.


This is a common misconception among not just hobbyists but other people that simple because they are using good supplements that this meets all of the animal's (or person's) metabolic needs. 
Among pretty much all vertebrate taxa its been repeatedly demonstrated that there can be wide variations within a species based not only on age, reproductive status and so forth but individual requirements. People forget that the vitamin content of the supplements is based on the minimal amount required to prevent symptoms of deficiency. As a consequence, the animal may actually need more of a vitamin to meet its optimal metabolism. 

There can also be significant differences in vitamin requirements to prevent deficiencies between animals that are different weights. The reason for this is because different weight animals within the same species and between the same species don't have the same exact metabolic needs. See for example 

Yates, A. A., S. A. Schlicker, and C. W. Suitor. "Dietary reference intakes for calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, vitamin D and fluoride." J Am Diet Assoc 98 (1998): 699-706.

Remember minimal levels to prevent signs of deficiency aren't the same as optima values for an individual which in turn means that there can be deficiencies despite adequate levels in the diet.. 

For examples of this see Williams, Roger J., and Gary Deason. "Individuality in vitamin C needs." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 57.6 (1967): 1638-1641.

Baker, David H. "Problems and pitfalls in animal experiments designed to establish dietary requirements for essential nutrients." J. Nutr 116.12 (1986): 2339-2349.

Shiau, Shi-Yen, and Hwei-Lin Hsieh. "Vitamin B6 requirements of tilapia Oreochromis niloticus x O. aureus fed two dietary protein concentrations." Fisheries science 63.6 (1997): 1002-1007.

Even in species that are traditionally thought to not need additional vitamins, its clear that the levels achieved via diet alone may not be sufficient for the optimum amount. 
See for example 
Acierno, Mark J., et al. "Effects of ultraviolet radiation on plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations in corn snakes (Elaphe guttata)." American journal of veterinary research 69.2 (2008): 294-297.


some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Ed said:


> This is a common misconception among not just hobbyists but other people that simple because they are using good supplements that this meets all of the animal's (or person's) metabolic needs.
> Among pretty much all vertebrate taxa its been repeatedly demonstrated that there can be wide variations within a species based not only on age, reproductive status and so forth but individual requirements. People forget that the vitamin content of the supplements is based on the minimal amount required to prevent symptoms of deficiency. As a consequence, the animal may actually need more of a vitamin to meet its optimal metabolism.
> 
> There can also be significant differences in vitamin requirements to prevent deficiencies between animals that are different weights. The reason for this is because different weight animals within the same species and between the same species don't have the same exact metabolic needs. See for example
> ...


Ed, I'm well aware that different individuals, species, etc have different nutrient requirements. However, none of the papers you listed actually back up your hypothesis above. Which by the way I said is interesting and may very well be right, but doesn't prove your point, and doesn't match my observations with the three that I have.

The only thing I'm saying, is that after following the advice of Roadrunner, and bringing my trio down to a more "normal" weight, my trio is once again producing good clutches. That's after almost two years of producing only bad clutches. If someone else has unsuccessful breading and their terribillis are overweight could try what I did and see if it improves their situation. Or not, it's up to them.

Mike

edit: since my original posts, my newest two clutches have also all made it to hatching and the tads are growing nicely.


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