# New Vivarium, How long to wait?



## bigmao (Sep 15, 2014)

I have decided to try out taking care of dart frogs because I love frogs. These will not be my first frog and I have done plenty of research so far. I have a ten gallon tank setup to be a vivarium for dart frogs. In there I am going to put two Mint Terribillis dart frogs. I am going to feed them pinhead crickets. I have done all the research about care and such but I need an answer to one question:
How long after I setup my vivarium do I have to wait before I can put frogs in it?

I setup the vivarium 2 days ago and I hope it get the frogs in two days. Is 5 days enough time for a vivarium to be ready for frogs?


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## bigmao (Sep 15, 2014)

Do I need to wait at all or can I just put frogs in right after making a tank for the frogs. I have seen some people in videos put frogs in immediately.


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## MondoBongo (Aug 3, 2014)

a different issue from the readiness of the habitat is quarantine. common practice is to QT all frogs for a length of time and have stool samples taken and analyzed for the purpose of ensuring health.

you wouldn't want to contaminate the habitat with sick frogs.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I'd like to make a couple comments. First a 10-gallon is to small for two adult P. terribilis, which is the largest Dendrobatid (maybe not the longest but the largest). I'd up to a 20-gallon at least. Second, feeding only crickets is not a good idea. Every time I've heard of frogs have prolapse they were feed crickets as a majority of their diet. I've never heard of it happening feeding fruit flies and rarely with a mix dominated by fruit flies. As for how long the tank needs to be set up - depends on the type of tank you put together. I set up three tanks last week and the frogs were in them in a matter of hours. But these are completely hydroponic tanks with no soil of any kind and I've been keeping these frogs for a long, long time. 

Best,

Chuck



bigmao said:


> I have decided to try out taking care of dart frogs because I love frogs. These will not be my first frog and I have done plenty of research so far. I have a ten gallon tank setup to be a vivarium for dart frogs. In there I am going to put two Mint Terribillis dart frogs. I am going to feed them pinhead crickets. I have done all the research about care and such but I need an answer to one question:
> How long after I setup my vivarium do I have to wait before I can put frogs in it?
> 
> I setup the vivarium 2 days ago and I hope it get the frogs in two days. Is 5 days enough time for a vivarium to be ready for frogs?


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

What kind of hardscape have you done? 
What products did you use in its creation? 
Many things require an air out period. 
Do you intend to use any type of iso's?
How old are these frogs?
If they are just froglets then the 10g would be fine for awhile but they will need to be upgraded before very long.
To give you any real answer besides that tank is to small we need more info.
Picture would be helpful. Though you say you have done a lot of research you seem far off on what most here would consider good practice. Pictures would help correct any other issues besides the ones already stated.


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## bigmao (Sep 15, 2014)

I have a ten gallon tank that was once used as a fish tank, then a Barking tree frog tank and now it will be for dart frogs. I have a false bottom of hydroton clay balls and Eco earth as my substrate. I have some wood pieces which I used in the last frog's tank, a water bowl and a few live plants. I have some pillow moss around the tank as well. I bought a glass lid for this tank and I am using a 40w blue day bulb to heat the tank. I have had this tank setup for 3.5 days and the temperature has been fine. The humidity levels have stayed between 80-95% with twice daily misting. I leave the light on during the day and turn it off at night. 

About the quarantining: Is it necessary if I am getting the frogs from a trusted source? Does quarantining help anything besides making sure the health of the frogs is ok?


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

If there is not a lot of effort put into the tank and these are the only frogs you have quarantine may not be needed. You can observe the frogs in the tank. if something goes wrong you can rip the tank apart and clean everything. 

The problem is many people put a lot of work into their tanks and ripping it apart and cleaning it would be a huge effort. Another issue would be if you are adding new frogs to a separate group. Quarantine would protect frogs from infecting each other. If you only have 2 frogs from the same breeder and your tank is a simple 10 gallon then realistically you can probably put them right in it. Just be aware that if a frog does show symptoms or get sick you may need to throw out all the organic material and do treatments on all hard scapes to kill pathogens on them this could cost you your plants and so on. Also its worth mentioning your old drift wood or anything else could be a source of pathogens. 

As others said a 10 gallon is pretty small for a pair of terribilis. I would suggest you consider the 10 gallon a quarantine / temporary grow up tank and work on making them something nicer while you hold them in the 10 gallon.


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

chuckpowell said:


> I'd like to make a couple comments. First a 10-gallon is to small for two adult P. terribilis, which is the largest Dendrobatid (maybe not the longest but the largest). I'd up to a 20-gallon at least. Second, feeding only crickets is not a good idea. Every time I've heard of frogs have prolapse they were feed crickets as a majority of their diet. I've never heard of it happening feeding fruit flies and rarely with a mix dominated by fruit flies. As for how long the tank needs to be set up - depends on the type of tank you put together. I set up three tanks last week and the frogs were in them in a matter of hours. But these are completely hydroponic tanks with no soil of any kind and I've been keeping these frogs for a long, long time.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


Chuck, what is prolapse?


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## wriggles (Apr 5, 2014)

zimmerj said:


> Chuck, what is prolapse?


You should google image search and find out!
Lol just kidding please don't.. it's when the rectum pushes itself out the anus hole, so you have an inside out piece of intestine hanging out.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Make sure that tank was disinfected thoroughly if you had tree frogs prior in it!


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

mongo77 said:


> Make sure that tank was disinfected thoroughly if you had tree frogs prior in it!


I second this! It really is crucial to make sure a tanks is thoroughly disinfected prior to adding new inhabitants. I will also echo the others and say that ten gallons is not enough space for two terribs. A twenty long or twenty high with lots of visual barriers would be a much better plan. And again, crickets are not the greatest food for dart frogs and just because they cant them doesn't mean that they should be a primary food source. I prefer to feed my terribilis hydei fruit flies as they are readily eaten, easy to culture (but not quite as easy as their melanogaster cousins) and are a good overall food source. However, I do use crickets as a supplementary food source and find them useful for that purpose.

And to answer your original question, I have added frogs an hour after completing a tank, but those animals were quarantined for two months before hand. I strongly advise quarantining any frogs you purchase, regardless of the source. Many problems may not pose any symptoms for years only to appear in your new vivarium. Quarantine can reduce the chances of something being missed and is better for the frogs.

John


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## bigmao (Sep 15, 2014)

First note: The tank was completely stripped Andes cleaned and was just sitting vacant for a couple weeks after my old frog. 

I decided after your advice to just buy one Mint Terribilis dart frog for my tank. At the store I bought it from it ended up telling me fruit flies was the way to go. The internet as well as the store had gone back and forth between both but I think I will be fine with the fruit flies. I am used to crickets with my old tree frog but I am fine with trying fruit flies. I know how to feed and dust them to my frog. I bought one culture from the store and I hope to but materials to make my own soon. Thanks for the help!


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## Scootin Newton (May 15, 2014)

Sounds like your on the right track
Best of luck
Newton


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## Itsalltender (Sep 6, 2014)

First you can put the frogs right after because they are not like fish where he water needs to be cycled. Eco earth substrate is not okay by itself, i made that mistak on my fisrt round. ABG mix is a good choice or Neherps mix. Can get both of those at neherps or josh's frogs.


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## MoCarp (Dec 3, 2013)

HEAT THE TANK?????????????? 



bigmao said:


> I am using a 40w blue day bulb to heat the tank.


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## aratatatatus (Sep 17, 2014)

A quick tip for using any kind of drift wood or wood brought into your Viv from the outdoors, BOIL it for at least 10-15 min.

Get a giant pot and an old propane camping stove set it up outside and just let it boil, this should kill anything living inside. Unfortunately contained living like these frogs in thief vivs makes for weak immune systems.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

aratatatatus said:


> A quick tip for using any kind of drift wood or wood brought into your Viv from the outdoors, BOIL it for at least 10-15 min.
> 
> Get a giant pot and an old propane camping stove set it up outside and just let it boil, this should kill anything living inside. Unfortunately contained living like these frogs in thief vivs makes for weak immune systems.


That doesn't really do much good. 10-15 minutes would not be long enough to penetrate much more than the surface. Yes its better than nothing. You won't be able to do anything to whats inside of it.


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## aratatatatus (Sep 17, 2014)

It depends on the size of the piece really, I boil mine for almost an hour most of the time.


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## aratatatatus (Sep 17, 2014)

The water wont penetrate but the heat will.


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

aratatatatus said:


> The water wont penetrate but the heat will.


Boiled water does not reach a high enough temp to kill things deep within wood in a timely manner.


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## aratatatatus (Sep 17, 2014)

There's no real,way to do it in a timely fashion.


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

If you have a pressure cooker, you can use that as an autoclave as long as it can achieve 15 PSI. Steam is the best sterilizer as you can achieve 121 degrees C (rather than 100 C as with boiling).


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## kgj (May 2, 2014)

It's been pretty well covered that boiling wood isn't going to do that much- you need an autoclave to really sterilize it.

Baking @ 225 for a few hours or boiling for a long period of time should do the job in killing off most if not all of the crawlies (IE macroorganisms) that might be on the wood. But it definitely won't do in microorganisms. Still, better than nothing. 

Personally I just wouldn't use wood from the outdoors . I'd even be leery of driftwood from the ocean and having salt leach out. There are plenty of sources of good, "clean" ghost/mopani/malaysian wood out there. Easy to work with.


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## aratatatatus (Sep 17, 2014)

Baking an steaming are good too, however I don't have a pressure cooker or an oven big enough for the pieces I use.


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

I wonder if soaking in 70% isopropyl alcohol would work. The alcohol will evaporate during drying and that 70% IPA kill most microbes.


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## JMims (Jul 15, 2013)

I bake my wood at 400 in the oven for close to an hour....but I found that soaking it in water before and wrapping it in tinfoil can help to not burn it on the edges...good luck.


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## Slurpeesnow (Feb 13, 2014)

Isos for a solid 10 days during quarintine


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