# Clay bank/slope terrarium ideas?



## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Anybody thought about designing a terrarium to recreate the side of a ravine or slope? In many areas this seems to be a common dart frog habitat (especially in higher elevations), with dense vegetation and roots hanging off the sides. Aside from rockwalls, I've seen alot of habitats where hard clay gets eroded into a steep face and tree roots stick out and get covered with epiphytes.

Anyone try to do something like this or have any cool ideas? Pics of slopes and habitat close-ups would be great too! Wouldn't neccessarily need to use actually clay or soil, just going for that look....


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

the only prob is that it would take up a lot of valuable space in a tank and a lot of us treasure that space, especially me living in the city.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The test tank I set up with a clay drip wall was based in a large part on this idea. There are changes I would make to it (such as using nothing but clay inbetween the plant areas to try and create more open patches. 

I haven't messed with shallower slopes as of yet, but I think it has a lot of really nice potential applications...

If done properly it may actually provide as much space of not more than a "typical" set up as the planted "extended" roots, crevices and other areas can potentially provide more usable space for the frogs. Someone else can do the math.... 

Ed


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## DKOOISTRA (May 28, 2009)

These are about the worste pics ever. Sorry, cell phone. It's a 12 x 12 x 18 exo, i took some driftwood that had a pretty good size hole in it, syliconed some tree fern panel to the back for water to fall thru, ran the tubing thru a hole in the wood, and now have a water feature that takes about 0 floor space. the hoya needs a little direction yet, but ill get it there, the second pic shows the water feature a little better. i siliconed some of the "cuttings" from the driftwood up higher to give some ledges, the rest is all clay. the clay is no more than 1/2" thick mixed with sphag and crushed up tree fern panel. whats cool is all the stuff that grows without any planting. i got moss, other stuff that i have no clue what they are, fungi etc... takes about 3-4 weeks for the "extras" to kick in, but they look cool when they do.
I have another going with a water feature too, ill post some pics later.
derek


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

I think I know what your talking about making there JoshH. I'm thinking about designing something similar as a 20 long cast insert one of these days. I tried making by hand something kind of like that with this tank, but it didn't exactly come out quite like I wanted it to with regards to the walls having exposed roots and such. Its more a drainage ditch more than anything else.












Aquaterra made a foam background insert piece that looked kind of like a muddy embankment with rocks and small sticks embedded in it. I think they may have discontinued making that design but I did get to see one in person at my local Sea World.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

VivariumWorks - That last tank is exactly what I was thinking....maybe with a few roots coming out the back for plants to hold on to. The "ditch" style tank is a good one too, especially for smaller tanks.....


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

I have been playing with the idea of an eroded clay bank type design for about a year now. These areas seem to be quite productive frog habitats, especially around rivers. The two methods that I have been thinking about the most are to either build up a slope with foam and cover it with bentonite clay similar to what Ed has done, I would probably have pockets of tree fern or epiweb for mounting plants that prefer airier roots to that of the dense clay. The other option I have come up with is an epoxy mixed with clay, silt and other aggregates and sculpted onto a foam slope. Pockets for larger plants that will not root well on the epoxy can be made. I think roots sticking out of the slope would look great and I would maybe make the foreground rocky to simulate the bed of a river. Here are some pictures I took in costa rica that I think illustrate the slope well:








(sorry that these last two are so blurry, it was super dark when I took them)

















Plant diversity seems to include lots of begonias, peperomia, selaginella, Adiantum, liverworts and other larger ferns. I hope someone attempts this soon I think it is a great idea.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Great pics and ideas everyone!

ghettopieninja ~ the pics are awesome, tons of plant life there. Thats kinda the look I'm going for.

I started working on a background to fit a 18x24 Exoterra or Zoo Med. It's all epoxy and if it turns out ok I may make a few copies of it. So far I left a few planting pockets on the ledges, the dark colored areas are supposed to recreate the dark organic humus that collects on the roots and ledges.

I still need to make lots of overhanging tree roots and vines going down the wall, which all are epoxy too. But I was able to match the colors of the clay streambank that I was using as a model. Thoughts or ideas?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Another possible option is to use acrylic binder at lower levels in the walls. This will initially leach some acrylate but bacterial colonization willl rapidly degrade any that isn't bonded in the wall. The plus side to this is that at lower levels (you'll need to play with consistency) it doesn't water proof the clay which is a higher risk with epoxy. I spent some time discussing these possibilities with my dad as he spent most of his career working in polymers at Rohm and Haas R&D. 

Ed


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Ed - so you're suggesting acrylic over the epoxy? I'm kinda confused....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm going back a couple of years and a couple of days of lack of sleep.. 

Expoxies can be acrylic based but not all of them acrylics... 

It depends on what you want to do with the back wall. If you want it to act more as a living filtration and nutrient storage system then you want the water to be able to penetrate the background substrate and form aerobic, anoxic and even anaerobic regions as those are what sequester nutrients and function more as a true soil. 
If you want the soil to function more as a real soil than as a simple background then you don't want to use materials in a large enough quantity that it prohibits the penetration of water and air. Many epoxies are hydrophobic and if mixed into a substrate in amounts that do not prevent water penetration or air penetration it may result in insufficient use of the resin and curing agent which have potential toxicity issues (for example in many older epoxy formulations bisphenol A was using as a curing agent) and a slow leachage rate due to poor solubility. 
When dealing with a acrylic fortifier in the same situation, the unbound acrylic is much more water soluble as well as prone to microbial action resulting in either its removal from the substrate or its decomposition as the bacterial bioload in the substrate becomes established. 

I wish I could provide citations for these uses but according to my dad, we are so far off the research map, there isn't any hard data... 
The use of acrylic binder I believe was discussed in the Ultimate clay thread... 

Ed


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Ok gotcha, just went back and saw where ghettopieninja had mentioned mixing epoxy with actual clay.....I would worry about toxicity and the potential for non-curing on some levels. When it comes to epoxy I usually like to only mix it with solid, stable fillers like washed sand, etc.

Yeah the epoxy one I'm working on won't have a lot of micro-fauna/filtration potential as it's solid fiberglass reinforced plastic. Completely inert and practically bulletproof  
I will probably mix up some red clay soil to fill the planting holes and put some at the base to blend the inert background in with the organic elements of the tank.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Great job so far ! Ill be keeping an eye on this. Maybe giving me some ideas for an 85 vert im planning in the near future . . . . .


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

Ed, I'm still a little unclear as to if your talking about the fortifiers in the context of a clay background or an epoxy background. It sounds like an interesting idea as an epoxy additive to create a very hard, sculptable and biologically active background that can supply nutrients and chemical exchanges to the plants that grow on it. Am I reading into this right? If this is your line of thinking would it be difficult for diluted organic fertilizers to infiltrate into this structure? Josh that background is fantastic, your work is quickly becoming my favorite. I love all the rocks and smaller stones you have pressed into the epoxy, it looks highly realistic. How did you create the branch? What kind of epoxy are you using with fiberglass reinforcement? Also I probably should have clarified when I said 'clay' mixed with epoxy as I figured there would be issues with such mixtures, what I meant was materials such as flourite, laterite or bentonite, do you think these would have the same issues if added to epoxy mixtures? I have only ever mixed more inert aggregates like sand and gravel with epoxy.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ghettopieninja said:


> Ed, I'm still a little unclear as to if your talking about the fortifiers in the context of a clay background or an epoxy background. It sounds like an interesting idea as an epoxy additive to create a very hard, sculptable and biologically active background that can supply nutrients and chemical exchanges to the plants that grow on it. Am I reading into this right? If this is your line of thinking would it be difficult for diluted organic fertilizers to infiltrate into this structure?


Using one of the standard epoxies added to a clay or other substrate background will result in a background that is sculptable but the problem with this is that if you add enough epoxy that there is a sufficient amount of epoxy to allow the proper amount of crosslinking (curing of the epoxy), you usually get a substrate that is pretty impermeable to water and air (which negates any value of using it as a substrate or background). If you do not add enough epoxy that it allows for ready moisture and air penetration, then you have problems with leaching... 
The acrylic fortifier gets around this as you can add enough that it stabilizes the background but does not prevent moisture and air penetration. This allows for the background to uptake, release and hold nutrients as well as ion exchange (if making it from a clay or real soil mixture). You can add enough acrylic binder that it will prevent air and water penetration as well as preventing nutrient release and exchange... However any unreacted acrylic can be flushed out of the system and/or will be digested by the biofilm as it gets established. 

Does that help? I believe there was some discussion of acrylic binders in the ultimate clay thread.. 

Ed


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

I've used acrylic binders before and had major issues with it. I would not recommend using it for vivarium construction if you are planning on having any moving water. If your just using a mister then it sometimes works for some people. But it falls apart after a few months if moving water is on it, and leaches out into the water almost immediately. (Hence all the bubbles people see when they first make their viv this way.)

If your going to make a background like this, use epoxy. Get a slow curing kind, one that takes about an hour to cure, and premix it well and let it sit for a half hour. Then mix it like mad again when its slightly thicker. Then add your soil. I've had no issues with using this method with any leaching of any unreacted isocyannate.

It does become more solid than the acrylic method, but it actually holds together.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It depends on what you are using it for.. and the end result. I have drip walls and streams set up with clay substrates that hold up to the moving water once the bacterial and fungal biofilms gets well established. The biofilm is the glue that holds these products together.... If one is attempting to get a substrate working in the same manner as a real soil (which is the goal of some people) then using an acrylic binder holds the material together until the biofilms get established. If I remember correctly this was discussed in the ultimate clay thread.. and some people use other additives like corn starch and sugar to accomplish the same effect. 
The picture shown below uses nothing but a bentonite clay mixed with peat as the substrate on the top of the enclosure and to hold the stones together. The direct outflow of a magnum 350 is run out across the clay.. the flow rate was scaled up as the biofilm and plants became established (java moss and plain old lawn grass) until the flow was unrestricted.. it took about three months to be able to run the return full flow without any sign of erosion.


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Ahhh well this idea I like.

Using a biofilm/fungal community/rhisosphere to hold together the background into a living cellulose based structure. 

I'm thinking the chief substance that allows all this to be possible is the bentonite clay, as the methods I used with the acyrlic binder addative did not include this.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have a test drip wall of clay that has been up and running for years now that isn't misted but has an actual flow of water down it. After about 3 years of consistent running I let it actually dry out for 3-4 months and then turned the water back on. There was a little cracking but the clay substrate held together very well and didn't dissolve once it was rewetted. The mosses that were growing in in have also recovered very well. 

Ed


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## Trail_Mix (Nov 15, 2012)

VivariumWorks said:


> Ahhh well this idea I like.
> 
> Using a biofilm/fungal community/rhisosphere to hold together the background into a living cellulose based structure.
> 
> I'm thinking the chief substance that allows all this to be possible is the bentonite clay, as the methods I used with the acyrlic binder addative did not include this.


Bentonite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yup, makes sense to me. I think the secret's all in the alchemy


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

thanks for resurrecting this thread...lots of new people making vivs, and some of us are contemplating a slow moving "stream"...


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