# Force Feeding



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

I'm currently starting to force feed a 5-6month old cobalt which had not been eating. His sibling has grown much more than him, and is a lot fatter, and he has thinned out and has not been eating or pooping. I'm starting with 5 hydei larvae twice a day. Since he is so small, it is really difficult to force feed him. I hold him in my wet hand and then with my other dry hand press down on his mouth/vocal sac just enough so that his mouth opens a bit and my sister can place a maggot inside. I then put him in the palm of my hand where he swallows it in a few seconds. I know he does not have short-tongue syndrome because I have seen him grab a hydei and it does extend fully. I had fecals done on the frogs and the cobalts came back with a high level of hookworm, which I am attributing to this weight lose. I am treating them with panacur just as soon as it comes in the mail. This is a picture of him: 

What do you guys think? Any suggestions or thoughts?

Luke


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Short-tongue is actually a misnomer as the tongue is still the same length. The name came from some of the original observations on toads that made it look like the toad was striking at the food item but missing. 
What really occurs in short-tongue syndroms (sts for the rest of the post) is that the mucous producing cells on the tongue are lost due to insufficient vitamin A in the diet. If this is the actual problem increasing the level of vitamin A in the diet will correct the situation as the mucous producing cells will slowly reform. 
STS should probably be referred to as sticky tounge syndrome (still sts) instead as the tongue length is not affected. 
This has been well documented in some bufonids. 

Ed


----------



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Well I guess I stated that incorrectly. What I meant to say, is that his tongue works correctly, however he just isn't using it, as if he has no appetite.

Luke


----------



## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

Luke, I'm glad you started this thread. I've been using a similar technique now (though I fly solo as the wife would never be of assistance in this) for over a month to open the mouth and add food to an adult azureus with sts. I'd recommend dusting the maggots. You can also mash them up a little (kill them and make them stick together) and get more than one in at a time. I know my cobalts usually eat way more than 10 hydei a day.

The good news is I've seen frogs a lot skinnier than that guy recover, and that you have a positive diagnosis and can treat accordingly.

Josh


----------



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

The thing is, I didn't want to overfeed him from the start, but I'm definitely going to give him more and more each day. He doesn't look THAT bad, but is definitely underweight. He is very small compared to an adult, and I have a hard time even holding him, I wish I could do it with my two hands, but I need at least a third. Last time it took me about 20min to feed him 5 maggots. It is very hard to open his mouth due to his small size.

Luke


----------



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Well I just fed him at least 15 maggots dusted with calcium and mushed in water to make a calci-maggot paste. I did it by myself this time, and it wasn't so bad as long as I am able to hold him correctly. He is stressed out definitely, but this is the best thing for him right now. I'll give him a few flies each night to see if he decides to eat on his own or not.

Luke


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

the panacur should really do the job. Honestly, I believe all people starting out with dart frogs should consider always having a vet on hand to get the panacur before they even buy frogs, as this problem seems to be happening over and over. I am fortunate I haven't dealt with it as much except for WC mantellas. I have panacur on hand, but never really used it on any of my adult tris and tincs.

Luke, couldn't you pick the panacur from the local vet? That's all I did, but then again, I had a stool sample taken there.'

BTW, try pedialyte soak. After my female tricolor experienced rectal prolapse and went several days without food until she recovered, a good soak in it really perked her up and she went about her business in the new 20 gallon several months ago. (she was also the one that produced all the tads)


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

when considering the use of pedialyte see 
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 3013#73013 

FFs are a very poor source of vitamin A so supplementing the forcefeeding mixture with a source of vitamin A as well as D3 and calcium may be critical. 

Ed


----------



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Yes, I am making a high fat, high vitamin/calcium mix for him. Today when I fed him, I noticed that he had finally excreted what I fed him yesterday. However, there was very little digested material and 4 whole maggots. Not sure what to make of this.

Luke


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is documentation in the literature that maggots are hard to digest and can be passed through undigested so this may not be that significant of an observation. Make sure to pierce the skin of the maggot. 
As a side observation, the digestion of chitin in insectivores can be partially or totally due to the presence of symbiotic bacteria and protozoa and these populations can be changed or lost if there has been a disruption of feeding and/or treatment with some antibiotics or antihelmetics (but should recover with some time). 

Ed


----------



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Well I have not started to treat the tincs with panacur yet, unfortunately, so hopefully the infauna is still intact, but next feeding I will make sure to dice up the maggots as to reveal there inner tissues. Thanks Ed.

Luke


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If the frogs have been diagnosed with parasites then it may be more important to treat the frogs to reduce the parasite load on the frog than to worry about any possible effects on the other intestional fauna. 

Ed


----------



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Of course I agree...I just haven't recieved the meds in the mail yet, as soon as I do, they are all getting de-wormed.

Luke


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okay,

It wasn't clear from the previous posts. 

Ed


----------



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Here's another pic of the guy, he isn't extremely skinny, but still not eating. His excrement is still mostly whitish/light brown in color, probably from the white larvae and lots of vitamins. Tried feeding him tonight with mashed up hydei and calcium, we'll see if there is a difference in poop.



Luke


----------



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

After watching him for a while I notice that he opens his mouth quite a bit. He usually just sits in one spot, and periodically opens his mouth as if it is uncomfortable, or he's trying to swallow something, or sometimes I have seen this in other frogs when they have too much in their mouths. He does it every 15-20 seconds.

Has anyone experienced such a symptom with any of their frogs before? Especially if they had STS?

Luke


----------



## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

YES. My azureus did the same thing in the early stages. By the way, I am still force feeding, and he is still not eating at all on his own. I am going to give it until the end of this week, and cut my losses. Good luck with your frog.

Josh


----------

