# Newbie! Kitty litter background question



## crichard (Mar 1, 2012)

Hi All - this is my first post here. I'm new to the whole dart frog realm and am excited about getting into this hobby. I have been in the saltwater reef hobby for about 10 years now and am looking to branch out a bit.  

About 4 weeks ago I purchased an Exo Terra 18x18x24 tank have since put a false bottom in, GS foam waterfall coated in drylok, and a kitty litter clay background. I have my substrate mixed up (similar to the ABG recipes I found online) and have a couple of plants in there now. I don't plan on adding darts until I successfully get some fruit fly cultures going. 

I do have a question on my clay background.. it seems rather sticky to me. It's been in there now for about a week and I keep misting the tank every day to keep things moist. The background itself seems awful sticky. If I touch it, I get clay mush on my hands, etc. Is that normal? When I add frogs are they going to get this stuff all over them? Just curious...  

Thanks,
Chad


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## enfinite5 (Nov 23, 2011)

I did the clay kitty liter method for my first viv....and ended up scraping because it becomes a pain. I covered mine with coco fiber though...is yours only kitty liter? if so I would cover it with something.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

crichard said:


> The background itself seems awful sticky. If I touch it, I get clay mush on my hands, etc. Is that normal?


Yeah, that's normal and it is also normal for the kitty litter BG's to collapse, slide off the glass, hell I had one that actually peeled off the glass reshaped itself into a clay kitten and then hop from tank to tank leaving behind big ol' kitty litter turds in each and every one of my vivs. worst background method...EVER!

In all seriousness, if I were you I would rethink a different BG method before adding frogs. I have several tanks with kitty litter backgrounds and have had a collapse of some sort in every single one. There is no question that I will eventually have to pull the frogs and redo all of their tanks. Look into the bentonite/redart clay, or if you are set on using kitty litter, use it in combination with the cork bark mosaic technique for added support.


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## crichard (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm not set on using kitty litter. I liked the idea over the GS because I read moss grows better on it. I suppose I could pull it all out and use GS covered in drylok though. That seemed to work pretty well for the waterfall. I could also leave spots in the GS for plants.

Currently I've sprinkled some coco-fiber on the background but its not 100% covered. More or less just dusted for looks.. 

I have to admit though after running the waterfall with the false bottom and clay background (the water is awfully cloudy.. hope its from the clay and not the drylok or something washing off into the water) I'm contemplated scrapping the waterfall and clay background and just using hydroton as my false bottom along with a dish or something for water for the frogs...

Still debating.......... lol.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Kitty litter is typically closely associated with one word. Need I say more? For a proper clay background, you should consider one based heavily in Red Art clay.
My latest clay wall recipe can be found here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/78189-not-another-pumilo-build-4.html along with some clay links.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Kitty litter is typically closely associated with one word. Need I say more?


Cats am I right?

I've got two vivs currently with kitty litter backgrounds. So far so good, but probably won't do them again as the first one I did slid down the glass (mixed it too wet).


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

I was thinking of using the cork tile background in my next one. Do people like those when they use them?


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

I've used kitty litter and peat moss for backgrounds. Mine are just a year old, but haven't had too many problems yet. Some kitty litters dissolve much better than others, Walmart brand is the worst, seems to have some fired clay mixed in that won't dissolve.
I dissolve the litter with boiling water till it's like thin pancake batter. Might let it sit for a day. Then drill in as much dried peat moss as I can with a good mixing blade with a 1/2 drill. When it's the correct texture I can drill a 3" hole straight to the bottom of a 5 gal pail. The hole will remain when I remove the mixing blade, that's how stiff the mixture must be.
When I press it against the glass and between pieces of wood i use alot of finger pressure. I try to keep it at least 1" thick.
Here is a recent background.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Mine have never failed, not even when I moved. But then I try to put them up as try as possible. Dont worry about the clay sticking to the frogs.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Reef_Haven said:


> Walmart brand is the worst, seems to have some fired clay mixed in that won't dissolve.


It has no fired clay, its a rough mined product.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/69886-crack-resistant-clay-background.html
There you go. There is no reason to completely dissolve the clay, I also find that the pure little is better than the mix.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I think a lot of it comes down to getting the right consistency and letting it settle. After I apply the clay I lay the tank on its side and let the clay settle. By settle I mean I let it breathe a bit more than it would in a sealed viv condition so it loses some of its moisture content. This helps it firm up a bit. 

I let it lay on its back for a couple days. Now, I will spray a fine mist on it occasionally to make sure that no areas are completely drying out. (watch out for thinly applied areas)

Also, I make sure that I COMPLETELY dry the surface I am applying it to. Water behind the clay is a very bad thing.

This method has worked on several vivs for me. I recently broke one down that I built in june 2010 and I had to bust out a spackling knife to scrape the clay off.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I've used it once and probably not again. It has stayed up now for a while, but it regularly gets too wet and needs to be let to dry up. The broms start falling out  It does, of course, depend on so much to be completely ruled as being a bad idea. Alot of people have had no issues at all and swear by it. It would seem to me though in a tank with a splashing water feature that you would want to keep the clay far away. I hear of people doing a great stuff buffer zone around the feature. Getting mine up to "breeding" humidity almost certainly means a soppy BG so mine has been deemed a grow out tank. Most likely though this is because of one of the many factors of the mix i used not being correct in ratios or using special kitty (walmart) litter. Trial and error...or listen to people who've been there


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

The synonymous word is poopy...sorry to ruin it for everyone


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## rahunt2 (Jan 4, 2009)

I had never heard of using kitty litter as a background before.
I have done a lot of backgrounds with a lot of techniques but it sounds like kitty litter is one I better avoid.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

why? its no different than using any of the other sodium bentonite clays. And its a fraction of the price


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I ran a side by side comparison of clay substrates. One was my RedArt formula Clay Substrate http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html The other was the exact same thing except there was no RedArt, instead, the RedArt was replaced entirely with Sodium Bentonite. I used quality sodium bentonite from a clay/pottery store. I then set up two 25 gallon vivs. They had identical false bottoms, screen dividers, 1 inch of Turface. One received one inch of RedArt substrate and the other received one inch of sodium bentonite substrate. They each had one MistKing misting nozzle and were set up on the same timer. The each had one gallon of leaf litter over the top of the clay. They were set up a little less than a year ago. The RedArt viv is in great shape. The Sodium Bentonite viv turned to complete mush after only a few short months. It was broken down long ago. Sodium Bentonite simply does not set up and last as long as RedArt clay does.
The last time I picked up sodium bentonite at my clay supplier, they told me that it is NOT used in clay recipies by potters, rather, it is simply part of a glaze recipe.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Ok but the litter is not processed down to such a fine powder. The red bag is pelletized and does not have that problem. I've used it as a substrate alone with nothing between it and the false bottom with no issues. Its also super cheap and available almost everywhere.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Can't even imagine using kitty litter as a substrate....that sounds like a disaster.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

NathanB said:


> Ok but the litter is not processed down to such a fine powder. The red bag is pelletized and does not have that problem. I've used it as a substrate alone with nothing between it and the false bottom with no issues. Its also super cheap and available almost everywhere.


Kitty litter does not carry the same benefits as a proper, calcium, enriched, clay substrate or background either.
I'm not saying that it is impossible to make a background with kitty litter. I am saying that there are better choices that carry benefits other than just being cheap. A proper clay background or substrate should not be about being cheap, it should be about the benefits that can come hand in hand with it.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Kitty litter does not carry the same benefits as a proper, calcium, enriched, clay substrate or background either.


And neither does any of the other background methods other the calcium enriched clay. That does not mean they are not a good or proper background.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Erikb3113 said:


> Can't even imagine using kitty litter as a substrate....that sounds like a disaster.


Care to explain why? All my vivs have been the litter with a layer of organics on top. With either a false bottom of eggcrate or hydroton. What did you do you think would happen to it?


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I would think it would become a soppy mess considering the consistency when wet. If it works for you, that is awesome. Just not sure I see the point of having it down there. Seems it would hold alot of water and keep the substrate too wet.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

I have water features in all the tanks and have to issues with the consistency.


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