# do live plants matter in a viv?



## Dfrog (May 29, 2009)

I was wondering if in a terrarium do you have to have live plants in it if your going to put a frog in it?
Or are fake plants just as fine?
thanks


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I know some people like fake plants and it works fine. I come from the school of trying to make it as close to there natural environment as possible. A viv doesnt have to be loaded with plants but a couple plants and some leaf litter would be my suggestion.
J


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

You could "get by" with fake plants but there are so many live plants to choose from why would you want to? Make it as natural as you can. Besides live plants help in carbon dioxide/oxygen exchange and humidity regulation. Or maybe you can use both. Depends on what look you are going for.


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## BChambers (Sep 12, 2009)

To me the absolute greatest advantage of a live plant viv is ease of maintenance. The plants very efficiently utilize the frog waste, decaying organic matter, dead feeder insects etc as fertilizer, while providing the further service of cleaning/freshening the air and soaking up CO2. A planted tank can go weeks or even years with no maintenance other than trimming back the foliage and wiping the front glass!


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Not to mention that plants produce plenty of decaying matter in the form of dropped leaves that springtails love.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have often wondered about this-- Devin Edmonds posted a picture of a zoo that kept and bred tinctorius on paper towels that was changed frequently. They had a single coco hut.

Parasites has been a controversial subject. If one keeps a sterile cage with fake plants and changes substrate like a true "cage," the possibility of parasites may decrease because the life cycle of parasites could be disrupted when soil is thrown out and decorations / cage is sterilized.

But, changing tank furniture could upset territories in adult frogs. I believe Ed K. mentioned that auratus use smell to detect territory?

I don't expect most frogs to breed with the exception of a few in a sterile setup (like the tinctorius example).


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Rain_Frog said:


> I have often wondered about this-- Devin Edmonds posted a picture of a zoo that kept and bred tinctorius on paper towels that was changed frequently. They had a single coco hut.
> 
> Parasites has been a controversial subject. If one keeps a sterile cage with fake plants and changes substrate like a true "cage," the possibility of parasites may decrease because the life cycle of parasites could be disrupted when soil is thrown out and decorations / cage is sterilized.
> 
> ...




Would that be more effective than fecaling and treating for parasites before putting them in the tank?

More on subject, I think plants also show somewhat that there is and contribute to a healthy atmosphere


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Of course, but according to Ed K, frogs have been shown to come up with parasites even long after treatment has been done. 

As Dane said, microfauna is very useful for frogs, especially for offspring. I do not keep pumilio, but have read that offspring are best left in the same vivarium for a while so they can feed on springtails.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Nature is perfect down to the most tiniest details, the closer we strive to replicate nature, the more successful we will become in maintaining animal life.


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

Besides that "IT'S NOT NICE TO FOOL WITH MOTHER NATURE".


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Rain_Frog said:


> Of course, but according to Ed K, frogs have been shown to come up with parasites even long after treatment has been done.



That is pretty discouraging, it's definitely a pain to be QTing and treating frogs for a month for them to reoccur.



Rain_Frog said:


> As Dane said, microfauna is very useful for frogs, especially for offspring. I do not keep pumilio, but have read that offspring are best left in the same vivarium for a while so they can feed on springtails.


Yeah all my frogs are egg feeders and with all of them but especially with pumilio good populations of microfauna seem like they're almost as important as the ff's - especially if you're using clay-based mineral soil. Live plants shedding leaves etc and decaying could only help


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

stingfrog said:


> Besides that "IT'S NOT NICE TO FOOL WITH MOTHER NATURE".


Holy s, remember that commercial?


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## Dfrog (May 29, 2009)

I just have a ten gal and not that much space to put any plants really and i cant find plants that will stay small and not get too big.
Thanks for the help


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Dfrog said:


> I just have a ten gal and not that much space to put any plants really and i cant find plants that will stay small and not get too big.
> Thanks for the help



A ten gallon can support a bunch of plants! Here's my old ten gallon for imitators:



















Plants are: selginellas, peperomias, philodendron wend imbe, tillandsias, ruellia makoyana, syngonium rayii, neoregelia fireball, and of course some marcgravia.


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

Just watch out for the lightening bolts. There are plants that stay small. I am not up on plants and their names especially their Latin names but they are out there. I just pick out what I think looks good for what I want to do and the space I have to do it in. ( snicker snicker) Besides you can always pick other types of plants and just keep them pruned to the size you want. I routinely go thru my vivs and do mowing jobs and either throw the cuttings away or use them in other vivs.


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

There are several types of vine plants that would be perfect for your tank if you are concerned about room. Many of the sponsors sell these plants at a very reasonable price or other members who are "cleaning/pruning" their plants. I have bought from both. Live plants really make your tank look natural.


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## ravengritz (Mar 2, 2009)

Dfrog said:


> I just have a ten gal and not that much space to put any plants really and i cant find plants that will stay small and not get too big.
> Thanks for the help


In addition to all the great information and advice, I would like to add; Plants actually give your frog more useable space. Your frog isn't getting much out of that big open area above it's head. A heavily planted tank will give your frog much more space than a sparse one with plastic plants. Even terrestrial frogs will utilize these natural shelves. You also don't lose much space in the way of substrate as you really need a false bottom to keep humidity up anyhow.

Try not to see it as a chore. Planting a tank can be a blast. Not all the plants will work but some will and eventually you'll have a lovely naturalistic setup that you'll be proud to show off.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Parasites has been a controversial subject. If one keeps a sterile cage with fake plants and changes substrate like a true "cage," the possibility of parasites may decrease because the life cycle of parasites could be disrupted when soil is thrown out and decorations / cage is sterilized.
> 
> But, changing tank furniture could upset territories in adult frogs. I believe Ed K. mentioned that auratus use smell to detect territory?


The problem with the idea of a sterile system as a parasite barrier is that you need to control not only the food, but the water and access by any wild invertebrates... contaiminated food sources, and stray wild insects are ready sources of parasites. 

Not only auratus but pumilio... I know I posted the references on here at some point... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Of course, but according to Ed K, frogs have been shown to come up with parasites even long after treatment has been done.
> .


Which is not a problem if you understand that 
1) the treatment may have simply knocked the parasite back enough that the immune system suppressed the parasite until it was detected again
2) the parasite detected later in the enclosure was not one that was detected and treated during quarantine as the frog wasn't shedding the parasite sufficiently to allow for detection
3) that the frog became infected after being placed into the tank..... 
4) not all parasites are a problem for the frogs.... 
5) if you are referring to coccidia, then once infected always infected treatment just renders the frog asymptomatic.. 

Parasites really need to have all of the above information included otherwise its very easy to misunderstand the need to quarantine and check the frogs.... 

As a further item, people need to also keep in mind that trading or purchasing cuttings from other people's frogs tanks is a great way to transfer parasites or even just annoyances like nemerteans... 


Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> its very easy to misunderstand the need to quarantine and check the frogs....
> 
> As a further item, people need to also keep in mind that trading or purchasing cuttings from other people's frogs tanks is a great way to transfer parasites or even just annoyances like nemerteans...
> 
> ...


Yeah any cuttings I get from other people's frog tanks I soak in 10% bleach for 20 minutes, then usually the plant doesn't make it (sorry Mike ). If I don't suspect they were in a frog tank, I spray them with vinegar then peroxide and let them sit for 20 minutes


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

ChrisK said:


> Would that be more effective than fecaling and treating for parasites before putting them in the tank?


Most likely. Its pretty easy to miss things on fecals. You need to do them atleast a couple times, and most people don't do that.


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## Dfrog (May 29, 2009)

It sucks to buy all of this stuff because ime only 13 and i dont have all that much money to spend on dart frogs but I try. I hope to have all of the things I want to have Like a 40 gal tank and a cool fogger and moss that will ACTUALLY GROW I MY VIV!
Thanks for all of the replies though!!


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## BChambers (Sep 12, 2009)

You don't have to buy tons of expensive plants to have a lush viv. Common house plants like pothos and philodendrons will grow fantastic in your viv just from cuttings! Surely your parents or friends will have such plants that they wouldn't mind having you take a couple of snips off of? Just insert the cut end of a vine in the damp substrate-or even just the water area of the viv-and watch them take off. Believe me, you'll soon enough have to cut them back so you can see in to the frogs!


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## Dfrog (May 29, 2009)

thanks i might just do that. hopefully i can get it green enough to where it looks like some of the peoples i see all the time.


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## bksbuddha (Oct 2, 2008)

I have both fake & real...the frogs all seem to enjoy both. Ivy works well too & may be another plant that someone may have. Or even Spider plants. I found some Broms at Home Depot, but they'd get too big for a 10 gallon, I believe. You can find pots of tropical plants at Lowe's, Home Depot, etc. rather cheaply. Just make sure to thoroughly rinse off the roots so you're certain that their are no chemicals that go into your viv. 
Good luck in your quest & I look forward to seeing the finished product.


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