# Bring frogs on a plane...



## Pacblu202

Anyone ever carried frogs on a plane with them? I'm making a short trip from SD to Chicago and am trying to take a few froglets with to sell when I'm home. How do I go about doing this?


----------



## Lukeomelas

I've done it a few times. I would put frogs in a soft sided cooler then stick them in my backpack and carry them on. Sent them through the X-ray machine with no problems. If you get asked just tell them they are tropical frogs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ykh

This is very interesting, thanks for sharing. TSA never question you and give you trouble?



Lukeomelas said:


> I've done it a few times. I would put frogs in a soft sided cooler then stick them in my backpack and carry them on. Sent them through the X-ray machine with no problems. If you get asked just tell them they are tropical frogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stemcellular

I've never had an issue. Last time (en route home from Frogday) tsa was WAY more interested in the cacao pods I had in my bag. Had to send them through a few times. Didn't even look at the frogs.


----------



## JPccusa

People has been upfront with TSA in the past so frogs don't go through the X-ray. If I remember correctly, the person told the TSA agent "_They_ told me to show you these _ live harmless tropical frogs_ so they don't go through the xray." The italic are the key words in the sentence. "They" could be anyone, from airline agents to TSA supervisors. Leave at that. 

Here is the thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/36832-carry-frog-luggage.html


----------



## Shinosuke

I have had it with these motherf*ing frogs on this motherf*ing plane!

...

Just kidding. That's good stuff to know.


----------



## BR5

Remove the fingers from a latex glove, put a frog in and swallow it. This way no one asks questions and you can poop them out when you get to your destination. Thumbs are harder to get down than tinc’s.  

Brian


----------



## Pacblu202

BR5 said:


> Remove the fingers from a latex glove, put a frog in and swallow it. This way no one asks questions and you can poop them out when you get to your destination. Thumbs are harder to get down than tinc’s.
> 
> Brian


That was my original plan. Ill just stick with that. Hahaha I read into that link you posted but its kind of outdated. Anyone have any recent experience?


----------



## mordoria

The TSA works for the government, not the airline. Tell TSA that you want a hand inspection and then tell them that there are live tree frogs in the box. I wouldent get them xrayed. Then DONT tell anyone on the plane. Ive found that the airline employees can have a very different attitude


----------



## whitethumb

thanks for posting this question, its really good to know


----------



## hydrophyte

Flying is so awful anymore I avoid it all costs.

I remember when I was a kid it was a big fun event to board a plane. People used to dress up with a suit and tie just because they were flying.


----------



## azure89

I was curious about this also because I am planning on attending Frog Day this year and would love to bring some stuff back

Any difference between which airline you choose?


----------



## Pacblu202

mordoria said:


> The TSA works for the government, not the airline. Tell TSA that you want a hand inspection and then tell them that there are live tree frogs in the box. I wouldent get them xrayed. Then DONT tell anyone on the plane. Ive found that the airline employees can have a very different attitude


See part of me wants to tell them, part just wants to say screw it and not tell them. I wouldn't have a way of getting the frogs back anywhere else if they tell me I can't bring them.


----------



## Pacblu202

I've heard of many people just tossing them through the X-ray. How would that effect the frogs if at all?


----------



## JPccusa

azure89 said:


> Any difference between which airline you choose?


No, since you are not showing the frogs at the airline counter. You would be showing the frogs to the TSA agents. 



Pacblu202 said:


> I've heard of many people just tossing them through the X-ray. How would that effect the frogs if at all?


The link I posted above talks about no visible negative effects with the frogs.


----------



## randommind

I will be traveling to NJ/NYC for the holidays and plan on taking a few frogs with me. I will be informing TSA and requesting a hand inspection. My concern is not with the frogs, but with the Phase 22 panel set to liquid I was planning on having in the cooler with them. Does anyone have thoughts on this? Is it even necessary? Will the 22 panel cause more trouble for me than anything? I will only be outside in the cold for a very short time, but can only imagine NYC mid-Dec will be freezing!


----------



## BR5

I think the phase panels will be pushing it! The contents will probably violate the ounces of product you’re able to carry on; they also look suspicious. As long as ambient temps don't get out of hand you should be okay.
Brian


----------



## easternversant

randommind said:


> I will be traveling to NJ/NYC for the holidays and plan on taking a few frogs with me. I will be informing TSA and requesting a hand inspection. My concern is not with the frogs, but with the Phase 22 panel set to liquid I was planning on having in the cooler with them. Does anyone have thoughts on this? Is it even necessary? Will the 22 panel cause more trouble for me than anything? I will only be outside in the cold for a very short time, but can only imagine NYC mid-Dec will be freezing!


You could bring a small cooler (insulated lunchbag) and a few empty bottles. Before you leave the airport you could fill the bottles with room temperature water from a bathroom and place the bottles in with the frogs. Since water maintains its temperature better than air this should insulate your frogs. I imagine you won't be outside with them long enough for it to become a concern then. This way you don't have to deal with the worries a phase 22 would cause or your frogs getting too cold.


----------



## hydrophyte

easternversant said:


> You could bring a small cooler (insulated lunchbag) and a few empty bottles. Before you leave the airport you could fill the bottles with room temperature water from a bathroom and place the bottles in with the frogs. Since water maintains its temperature better than air this should insulate your frogs. I imagine you won't be outside with them long enough for it to become a concern then. This way you don't have to deal with the worries a phase 22 would cause or your frogs getting too cold.


I use this trick with plastic Coke bottles for shipping with a styro in cold weather and it seems to work well.


----------



## Brian317

I've been talking with a TSA rep at my work about this issue. Does anybody know how many oz of liquid is in the phase panels/packs and if any of it is considered hazardous? Basically it has to fall under the 3-1-4 LGA policy (Liquids, Gels & Aerosols). I'll copy/paste it below:



> Frozen liquid items are allowed through the checkpoint as long as they are frozen solid when presented for screening. If frozen liquid items are partially melted, slushy, or have any liquid at the bottom of the container, they must meet 3-1-1 liquids requirements.
> If the frozen item is packed with ice or ice packs in a cooler or other container, the ice or ice packs must be completely frozen when brought through screening. If the ice or ice packs are partially melted and have any liquid at the bottom of the container, they will not be permitted.
> 
> Medically necessary liquids may be accompanied by ice packs, but we ask that you declare these items to a security officer for inspection.
> 
> You can pack frozen perishables in your carry-on or checked baggage in dry ice. The FAA limits you to five pounds of dry ice that is properly packaged (the package is vented).
> 
> The 3-1-1 rule for liquids, aerosols and gels in carry-ons is as follows: containers must be 3.4 ounces or less; stored in a 1 quart/liter zip-top bag; 1 zip-top bag per person. Larger amounts of non-medicinal liquids, gels, and aerosols must be placed in checked baggage.
> 
> If the liquid is considered a hazardous material that is permitted onboard an aircraft, it is still subject to the 3-1-1 limitations. Many questions arise on whether an item is hazardous material and what requirements must be met to take it on an aircraft. The Pipeline Hazardous Material Safety Administration (PHMSA) at 1-800-467-4922 or the aircraft operator on which you are flying can assist you with your questions concerning hazardous material.
> 
> Even if an item is generally permitted, it may be subject to additional screening or not allowed through the checkpoint if it triggers an alarm during the screening process, appears to have been tampered with, or poses other security concerns. The final decision rests with TSA on whether to allow any items on the plane.


And this is the current TSA regs on traveling with pets:



> Our security procedures do not prohibit you from bringing a pet on your flight. You should contact your airline or travel agent, however, before arriving at the airport to determine your airline's policy on traveling with pets.
> Pets and animals can be transported in carry-on or checked baggage to the extent permitted by the airline operator. All pets and animals are subject to non-x-ray screening.
> At the screening checkpoint, take your pet out of the carrier, if possible, and send the carrier through the x-ray. You can then either walk or carry your pet through the metal detector. If you are not able to take the pet or animal out of the carrier, notify the Transportation Security Officer (TSO) of your need for special assistance at the beginning of the checkpoint screening process. At all times, you are responsible for maintaining control of your pet and assisting the TSO in the screening process. Never put a pet into the x-ray!
> 
> Even if an item is generally permitted, it may be subject to additional screening or not allowed through the checkpoint if it triggers an alarm during the screening process, appears to have been tampered with, or poses other security concerns. The final decision rests with TSA on whether to allow any items on the plane.


You should also check with an airline rep first to see if they have any sort of prohibitive policy as well. Still trying to get in touch with another rep to check on a few other things...kinda hard to get a direct answer from them...even talking to them face to face


----------



## JPccusa

I would follow those TSA instructions, except the "talk to the airline" part. They do not need to know I am carrying live harmless tropical frogs on their plane.


----------



## Pumilo

Phase panels used this time of year would have to be in the liquid phase. I'm pretty sure than any Phase change materials will be confiscated and disposed of.
You can only have 3.4 oz of liquid and I'm pretty sure the .4 is an allowance for the container, which means 3 oz of ANY liquid, paste, or gel. (We had a small size jar of peanut butter which was confiscated.) 
A Phase 22 gel pack has approximately 6 ozs of liquid, and a Phase 22 panel has approximately 10 or 11 ozs of liquid. Both are too large and will be taken.

I like the idea of bringing empty bottles and a thermometer. After checking through TSA, fill the bottles with water set to about 75 degrees, and put it all into a cooler or insulated box. You could also just wrap it all in clothing for insulation and put in into your carry on bag.


----------



## Pumilo

JPccusa said:


> I would follow those TSA instructions, except the "talk to the airline" part. They do not need to know I am carrying live harmless tropical frogs on their plane.


I agree. If the species is legal, and TSA has cleared them as not being any sort of security risk, I would not mention it to the airline. Fill your legal and safety requirements and that should be all that is necessary.


----------



## Pacblu202

Thanks Brian! That seems like it should be too difficult just take them out of the carry on and go through metal detector. I will have to maybe print off what you said from the TSA website so that I can have it on me if they question it. 



Brian317 said:


> I've been talking with a TSA rep at my work about this issue. Does anybody know how many oz of liquid is in the phase panels/packs and if any of it is considered hazardous? Basically it has to fall under the 3-1-4 LGA policy (Liquids, Gels & Aerosols). I'll copy/paste it below:
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the current TSA regs on traveling with pets:
> 
> 
> 
> You should also check with an airline rep first to see if they have any sort of prohibitive policy as well. Still trying to get in touch with another rep to check on a few other things...kinda hard to get a direct answer from them...even talking to them face to face


----------



## JPccusa

Pumilo said:


> I agree. If the species is legal, and TSA has cleared them as not being any sort of security risk, I would not mention it to the airline. Fill your legal and safety requirements and that should be all that is necessary.


Would you carry any type of paperwork as proof the frogs are legal?


----------



## Pumilo

JPccusa said:


> Would you carry any type of paperwork as proof the frogs are legal?


No, TSA will not look into whether or not they are legal. They will be concerned about safety. It is simply our responsibility not to attempt smuggling illegal animals.
If we abide by the law, and allow TSA to do their thing and make sure there is no national threat, then that should be enough to fulfill our legal requirements.


----------



## Reef_Haven

I believe different airlines do have their own rules regarding pets in addition to TSA.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/36832-carry-frog-luggage.html#post328208

I've seen airlines do random screenings on carry-ons at the gate as well.


----------



## lincolnerickson

Maybe you could pack them with some fruit flies for thermal mass. I few months ago I took a fruit fly culture home with me. The TSA had to run in through separately. I warned here that it was maggots and flies so she didn't freak out. 

My mom has worked for the TSA since it started so if you have any specific questions (phase panels etc) I can ask her.

As for the Airline, from what I can tell you are not allowed to bring anything other than approved animals on the plane. If for some reason they find out you have frogs (from calling etc) then they can force you to leave them. I am sure they would never notice but just be aware that there is a very slight chance you could lose all your frogs.


----------



## JPccusa

I have never seen airlines doing carry on checks. I have seen TSA doing checks at the airline gate. That would suck since you'd probably have to take the frogs out in front of airline's staff.



> ... just be aware that there is a very slight chance you could lose all your frogs.


I wouldn't say that. I would say there is a chance of you spending more money than you originally intending to - you can send them via Cargo.


----------



## Reef_Haven

Turtle Thrown Away - Not Allowed on Airplane


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> I agree. If the species is legal, and TSA has cleared them as not being any sort of security risk, I would not mention it to the airline. Fill your legal and safety requirements and that should be all that is necessary.


I am going to bring up the point that if you purchased the frogs and are transporting them or are taking them to sell, you are engaging in interestate commerce and the Lacey Act comes into play..... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## JPccusa

Ed said:


> I am going to bring up the point that if you purchased the frogs and are transporting them or are taking them to sell, you are engaging in interestate commerce and the Lacey Act comes into play.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Does that mean I can "legally" only buy frogs in California, where I reside?



> § 3372. Prohibited acts
> 
> It is unlawful for any person--
> 
> (2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce--


What loopholes have people found in order to do things legally?


----------



## mordoria

Ed said:


> I am going to bring up the point that if you purchased the frogs and are transporting them or are taking them to sell, you are engaging in interestate commerce and the Lacey Act comes into play.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


The TSA nor the airlines care about the Lacey Act. It not in their jurisdiction unless its called upon. And 99.9% of TSA agents dont know what Lacey even is.


----------



## Ed

No, as long as you are purchasing legally aquired frogs... It is only illegal to transport them if 
1) you are failing to correctly mark the box etc
2) you are purchasing frogs that were smuggled or otherwise illegal (like castenoticus)
3) are meeting the requirments of California to transport wildlife into or out of the state (if there are any) 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## dendrothusiast

If any of you have concerns or questions about flying with frogs send me a pm - I work for tsa and just helped a member recently who was taking some frogs with him to the east coast. All liquids and gels and aerosols are allowed to size limit of "3.4" fl. ounces. not 4, not 5, not 10. We have some exceptions but not when it comes to transporting animals. - Please don't stick your frogs in the x-ray. The x-ray is very gnarly and wouldn't send any animals through it. 


Anything asking about pat downs and other procedures I'm ignoring. I'm only answering your questions about the frogs since I don't want to see or hear of them going through an x-ray.


----------



## Ed

mordoria said:


> The TSA nor the airlines care about the Lacey Act. It not in their jurisdiction unless its called upon. And 99.9% of TSA agents dont know what Lacey even is.


While it isn't in thier jurisdiction...if something does happen it is going to be under federal jurisdiction which means a greater chance that USFW will end up being involved then you are looking at significant potential fines and jail time for failing to comply. 

Simply mark the carry on container with live harmess frogs and carry an invoice inside of it. Small amount of precaution to be be safe. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## dendrothusiast

Ed said:


> While it isn't in thier jurisdiction...if something does happen it is going to be under federal jurisdiction which means a greater chance that USFW will end up being involved then you are looking at significant potential fines and jail time for failing to comply.
> 
> Ed


For you folks who don't believe Ed - guess what he's right. If your prepared for a very unpleasant time and nasty fines, I would do just as he said. I have a few friends in USFW that always tell me of what people tried to sneak on board. 1/2 those stories end with jail time.


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> I am going to bring up the point that if you purchased the frogs and are transporting them or are taking them to sell, you are engaging in interestate commerce and the Lacey Act comes into play.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Thanks, Ed. I did not realize the Lacey Act still applied if transporting in person, rather than shipping them.


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Thanks, Ed. I did not realize the Lacey Act still applied if transporting in person, rather than shipping them.


Any form of interstate commerce if it crosses... or import/export... sales, purchase, barters, trade.... the whole schmear 

Ed


----------



## BlueRidge

I asked this question to a neighbor who works for Shenandoah Valley Reginal Airport security. He doesn't work for the TSA but works with them and his response was that it was up to the TSA agent who is checking you. 

Basically he said if you are a belligerent person, you're gonna have issues. If you are up front with them and not suspicious, they'll let you through as they are ultimately concerned with the passenger safety. 

His opinion is that most TSA agents won't bother with frogs but if they were snakes you probably wont be let on the plane, most likely because of the stereotypes people get from snakes.

Bottom line is package them correctly so they can be easily checked if needed, and allow nothing to make someone nervous. I agree with the "dont tell the airline" statement. Once you get past the TSA, they don't need to know.


----------



## hypostatic

dendrothusiast said:


> Please don't stick your frogs in the x-ray. The x-ray is very gnarly and wouldn't send any animals through it.


While I read that members have put their frogs through the x-ray without problems, I would like to note that germ cells and (the cells that become eggs/sperm) are particularly sensitive to ionizing radiation, and it could potentially damage them or cause sterilization.

While I have no idea of the radiation level of the machines, here is a paper on the subject on how x-ray radiation can cause sterilization in rats:
X-RAY STERILIZATION OF IMMATURE FEMALE RATS


----------



## bsr8129

Hopefully it doesn't end like snakes on a plane.


----------



## Ed

bsr8129 said:


> Hopefully it doesn't end like snakes on a plane.


Already happened

If I remember correctly, one of the Dendrobatid researchers while bringing some animals back from Central America, was checking them in the restroom only to have a couple escape resulting in him having to recapture them.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## JPccusa

bsr8129 said:


> Hopefully it doesn't end like snakes on a plane.


You mean like this? Snake on a plane forces emergency landing


----------



## BlueRidge

WTH were they doing with a cobra in the passenger area anyway? wow


----------



## JPccusa

JPccusa said:


> People has been upfront with TSA in the past so frogs don't go through the X-ray. If I remember correctly, the person told the TSA agent "_They_ told me to show you these _ live harmless tropical frogs_ so they don't go through the xray." The italic are the key words in the sentence. "They" could be anyone, from airline agents to TSA supervisors. Leave at that.
> 
> Here is the thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/36832-carry-frog-luggage.html


I just wanted to update this thread with my first hand experience. Here is how it went:

I had frogs in ziplock food storage containers inside one of my two carry on bags. I put everything on the Xray belt, then asked the TSA agent that I wanted one of my bags hand-inspected. She replied:
- "_The entire bag or just one item?_"
- "_Just a couple of items._"
- "_What are they?_"
- "_Harmless tropical frogs that I don't want to send through the Xray machine._"
- "_Oh yeah... you don't want to do that. It would kill them. Let me have them._"

Lady behind me in line tries to peek over my shoulders to see them as I take the containers out of my bag. She asks:
- "_What are they?_"

Me: 
- "_Frogs._mad", while handling the containers to the TSA agent.

TSA:
- "_Oh, I see them! So tiny and cute!!! Let me get someone to check them for you._"

Agent calls someone while walking along with me until the remainder of my belongings go through the Xray machine. She hands over the frogs to another TSA agent. I go through the body scanner. 

New TSA agent: 
- "_Please follow me. I will check these containers with you._", as he leads me to a "sniff machine" just beyond the xray line. 

The agent wipes my hands and the containers for any traces of explosives, then focus once again on the frogs. 

Me: 
- "_Do you need to open the containers? If you do, please be very careful as the frogs may jump out._"
- "_I just need to peek inside._" 

The agent carefully removes the tapes securing the lids shut, peeks inside, then closes them back. In the meantime, more TSA agents (about 5) are gathering to see the frogs.

Random TSA agents: 
- "_What is it?_"
- "_How many are there?_"
- "_I can't see any._"
- "_Here it is, look how pretty!_"
- "_What is it?_"
- "_Tropical frogs... I LOVE frogs!_"
- yada, yada. 

By this time, my other bags are already out of the Xray so the agent tells me I can go retrieve them. I put my shoes back on, get my bags, and go back for the frogs. 

TSA:
- "_All clear. Here are your frogs. Have a nice trip._" 
- "_Thank you._", as I put the frogs back in my bag. 

Once inside the plane, I put the bag under the seat and 6 hours later they were home safe and sound. 

*Moral of the story:* Security check took only a couple of minutes longer than usual, the frogs did not have to go through harmful Xray machines, TSA agents were very nice and mesmerized about the frogs (probably the highlight of their day ), and the airline never knew I was carrying live frogs in their plane.


----------



## GP dynamite

Thanks for sharing the experience, JP.


----------



## jdooley195

Thanks, for the follow up and details.

I hope others will share in similar detail in the future.

I bet you were wincing the whole time at the thought of somebody saying "Aren't those poisonous?", during the inspection.


----------



## wasatchtrops

Sitting in long beach airport waiting for our plane. 
We flew out of Salt Lake City friday for scads. Both ways were very smooth. 

They don't care about frogs, they will not take down a plane...


----------



## GP dynamite

wasatchtrops said:


> Sitting in long beach airport waiting for our plane.
> We flew out of Salt Lake City friday for scads. Both ways were very smooth.
> 
> They don't care about frogs, they will not take down a plane...


Says you. I have a real shifty eyed Leucomelas. I wouldn't trust him one bit. Take your eye off of him and he's in the cockpit next thing you know, Samuel L. Jackson .... No Bueno.


----------



## goof901

Ed said:


> No, as long as you are purchasing legally aquired frogs... It is only illegal to transport them if
> 1) you are failing to correctly mark the box etc
> 2) you are purchasing frogs that were smuggled or otherwise illegal (like castenoticus)
> 3) are meeting the requirments of California to transport wildlife into or out of the state (if there are any)
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I know this is an old thread, but does anybody happen to know what the requirements are to transport wildlife out of California?


----------



## froggorf

I just flew out of LAX a few weeks ago with a trio of CB pumilio in 32 oz deli cup. Smooth sailing - very similar experience to JPccusa, I asked for a hand check and TSA were very excited by my little guys and they all wanted to catch a peak. No issues whatsoever and I plan on transporting frogs again this way again very soon.


----------



## a hill

froggorf said:


> I just flew out of LAX a few weeks ago with a trio of CB pumilio in 32 oz deli cup. Smooth sailing - very similar experience to JPccusa, I asked for a hand check and TSA were very excited by my little guys and they all wanted to catch a peak. No issues whatsoever and I plan on transporting frogs again this way again very soon.



Good to know, I've had many similar experiences with my dog 










Then there are the miserable people who want to make everyone else miserable. I've been nervous about picking up frogs while I'm home in RI, since a bunch of you are in that area of the country. Hopefully it goes just as well, seems like with pets one always gets hand swabbed but never gets microwave body photography done so I'm happy there. 

-Andrew


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## daggekko

Has anybody done this with geckos?


----------



## froggorf

Just to quickly share another positive experience, I flew out of Seattle and they just carried my frog around the X-ray machine and handed it back to me without even checking it. I'm currently sitting at LAX and they simply swabbed the outside of the deli cup and handed the frogs back with no grief whatsoever. 3/3 on great airport experiences with TSA @ SeaTac and LAX terminals 3 & 6. Saving a lot of money on shipping makes me happy and my frogs get to travel in style in a cool insulated lunchbox!


----------



## sophia

what if they are leopard frogs?


----------



## Socratic Monologue

sophia said:


> what if they are leopard frogs?


Where are you flying to and from? Native species are regulated in some states.


----------

