# Import CITES Permit not required? (At least in Canada)



## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

I just got a hold of CITES and this is what was said...



> Poison-arrow frogs or poison-dart frogs (Dendrobates spp.) are listed in Appendix II of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). This listing means that CITES permits are required from the country of export before movement begins. No CITES documentation is required from the importing country.
> 
> The exporter must obtain the permit and the original must accompany the frog on export. Photocopies, fax copies or e-mail copies will not be accepted. Customs officials have the right to detain shipments not accompanied by proper documentation.


So as long as I can get CITES Export papers for a frog shipped from Germany I should be fine to get it shipped here legally.

Am I correct in thinking that?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

the people you need to contact about this is canadian customs/fish and wildlife. Even if they don't require CITES documentation they still probably require some sort of importer license/documentation. 

BTW, seen you hanging around dendroworld, what have you managed to get a hole of from germany? :wink:


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

Only require an export CITES from the country where its coming from!

Sounds good doesnt it?


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

It can be more complicated than that depending on the species and the laws in Canada. The US, for example, has other laws that apply if the animal is endangered such as ESA in addition to Lacey. Also, some countries have laws upholding foreign nation laws about trade. Colombia, for example, has certain rules about dendrobatids and if they aren't from certain stock, they would not be legal.

I encourage you, if you are looking down this road, to consider not only the legal, but ethical implications of what you are doing. I would recommend asking the exporter to provide documentation that traces this animal to its root and I would be wary of just some memo saying so. So, if it is lehmani, for example, they should be able to trace the animal back to Colombia, to a seized shipment, or to animals that pre-date the inclusion of dendrobates into CITES.

Animals such as lehmani and other desirable species found throughout the trade are endangered and improper footwork that helps facilitate questionable animals is a threat to the species.

Marcos


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

The lady I spoke to said as long as there is a legal export CITES than there is no problem importing it to Canada... no matter what Dendrobates it is.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

From what I understand, the problem seems to be finding a reputable source on the other side of the pond that is not only capable, but also willing to ship overseas. It is quite an expensive venture and lengthy process to end up with rare frogs that are not packed well and end up dead (or any frogs, for that matter). I'm thinking "Live Arrival Guarantee" would not apply, unfortunately. :wink: 

I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just sharing what I've heard the major obstacles involved with importing to be.

Kristen


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

All it takes is one successful trip! Hoping if all paper work goes well the trip will be OK.

P.S.

I have family member visit from Germany 1-3 times a year... so they can take it!


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

Ah, I see...are they into frogs? I know I wouldn't trust a non-frog person to pack up and ship frogs to me, especially ones that involve lots of permits and paperwork. haha  Not to mention, housing them and caring for them while waiting for paperwork. Sheesh, I can't even trust non-frog people to feed mine while I'm gone...ugh. Why can't I have relatives like that?  

Kristen


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

The guy is a reputable frog breeder in Germany... shouldnt be an issue.

He is very anal about paperwork too... so if I ever do get papers... they will be properly done.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

> (1) No person shall import into Canada any animal or plant that was taken, or any animal or plant, or any part or derivative of an animal or plant, that was possessed, distributed or transported in contravention of any law of any foreign state


.

Wild Animal and Plant Protection and Regulation of International and Interprovincial Trade Act



> Decree INDERENA No. 39 of 9 July, 1985, forbids the collection of Dendrobates spp. from the wild for breeding (or other) purposes. Listed on Appendix II of CITES.


http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/55190/doc

I have the text of the Colombian law INDERENA No. 39 and I'd be surprised if many Colombian exports meet its requirements. I'm not trying to be contrary. You asked if they are legal, I'm telling you its more complicated than just getting the OK from the FWS folks. I'm also not just quoting your stuff off the Internet, I talk to these folks on a regular basis.

Marcos


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

They may have not been aquired legally in the begining, but most darts were suggled at some point.

If they can prove that at least 3 generations were captive bred then it is classified as ok.. apparently... im no expert... still doing research.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

There have been thousands of darts and many species legally imported. But, the status of most darts doesn't matter. What matters is the status of the species you are interested in importing. Not trying to bust your chops, but there are a handful of species of particular concern to me. I won't drag this out though, if you want any more of my opinion, feel free to PM me. I would be happy to provide a 2nd opinion and will likely be attending a meeting on CITES later this month.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

41714049 said:


> They may have not been aquired legally in the begining, but most darts were suggled at some point.


This is an often quoted myth. There are plenty of records of legally imported species, many coming in by the thousands. In addition, frogs have been imported, legally, even before CITES and the need for permits.

Beyond "legal" are the ethical implications. I'm not against importing frogs from the wild or from Europe, but when I hear people say that if smuggled frogs are just bred for a few generations then it is okay, it makes my skin crawl. Our purchasing decision do have consequences for wild animals. D. lehmanii, for example, are critically endangered in the wild, under high demand in captivity (I saw a cb offered for $600) and almost impossible to breed. As such, there is a high profit motive for smuggling to the detriment of the wild population. Purchasing laundered frogs only encourages the practice. Importing frogs does have the potential to do a lot of good for frogs in the wild but it can also do harm. There is certainly nothing wrong with importing legally obtained animals from Europe. But it is all too easy to rationalize decisions that ultimately harm wild populations.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "If they can prove that at least 3 generations were captive bred then it is classified as ok.. apparently... im no expert... still doing research."endsnip

If you think that this is true, then I suggest that you ask USF&W thier position on D. castenoticus... I think the answer will not be what you expect. 

A 2005 response from UF&W on castenoticus 

snip "Many frogs from Brazil are illegal to import into the United States, sell, or possess in the United States. These frogs are protected by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). The Brazil Nut Poison Arrow Frog is one such example of a protected frog species that is sometimes seen in the pet trade. "endsnip

Ed


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^ I know USFW and Canadian FW work fairly closely together on a number of projects (migratory waterfowl for example) but does canadian FW hold the same view as USFW on some of these more questionable frogs? He may be correct if he's talked to someone in canadian customs. I've suggested he talk to mark pepper, i'm sure he'd be able to clear all this up with regards to canadian regulations


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When I answered it, I had forgotten that this was part of a comment on Canadian policies but I suspect if you cite a specific species like D. castenoticus there maybe a different answer as 3 generations cb does not legalize animals trafficked in violation of CITES.... 

Different countries have different ways of treating smuggled animals that have been confiscated which is why some species are legal in Europe (but not all countries recognize the legality of the released animals) despite the animal haveing never been legally exported from thier natal country. 
Regardless of the status in the country of origin, the legality in another country can depend on a number of things including international relations. If the person, they are contacting in the Canadian goverment is telling them 3rd generation cb with associated documentation will allow for a legal import isn't the person who is inspecting it at Customs, it could be a very different story. I would suggest quering the person in writing about a specific species, so you get an answer in writing about that species... This way if you go through all of the hoops and there is a problem at import, you have some documentation that is solid... 


Ed


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