# Let's debate--BROMELIADS



## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Or--Why Neos, neos and more neos?*

Many of us who are bit older find it somewhat surprising that the bromeliads of choice for many terrarium enthusiasts are genus _Neoregelia_. Not that it's surprising that neos are popular; one grower in Florida told me that neos make up 2/3 to 3/4 of his business. 

But why so many neos? Yes, they are beautiful plants, they pup, and many are small. But as a genus, many of these plants enjoy really high light levels--especially plants with 'Fireball' in the parentage. I once tried to grow 'Zoe' in a big, fully unobstructed SOUTH window here in NYC. FUL-LY UN-OB-STRUCT-ED. I got a green plant with faint pink and cream stripes...

(The same $%##% light where my Aeschynanthus and Murraya flowered almost incessantly... The same light where my _Pachypodium lealii _flowered...)

Here are my thoughts on why neoregelias are so popular:

1) They are usually smaller than other genera;
2) Many hold water;
3) You like 'em precisely because they do not have tall inflorescences that can become problematic;
4) They do, in fact tolerate the relatively stagnant air of closed tanks. This is why, for example, Tropiflora would years ago recommend many different types of smaller bromeliads only for open (screened) tanks. 

But let me suggest some other points:

5) Many neoregelia enthusiasts live in the SOUTHERN United States. Bright shade in NYC simply cannot compare to bright shade in central Florida or New Orleans. That is why you can grow nicer neos.
6) This is simple: Many younger frog keepers first learn of bromeliads from NEOREGELIA enthusiasts. As such, it is a neutral, unconscious bias (think of taste in cuisine; we like what we are first exposed to).
7) A corollary of #6 is that many people are first exposed to vrieseas and guzmanias from Home Depots and supermarkets. These are forced plants grown in potting soil, simply not adapted for mounting or planting in tanks. Consequently, people draw the faulty conclusion that all vriesea and guzmanias are poorly suited for terrariums (this is known as a "third cause fallacy").
8) In some cases, that can be true, especially in the case of some vrieseas (le.g., _V. racinae_). However, many people get neos expecting the "4-5" across described by Florida growers (not you, Antone , and are disappointed when their plants stretch in a tank. In my experience, I would suggest that the five easiest terrarium genera actually are (not accounting for size):

Canistropsis/Nidularium
Cryptanthus (several)
Guzmania lingulata and sanguinea, and their cultivars
"Greenish" tillandsias (E.g., aeranthos, bulbosa, filifolia, green funckiana, geminiflora, kegeliana, montana, soft stricta, tricolor, etc.)
Pitcairnia--if you have the room!

In other words, the same light that keeps a _Cryptanthus_ 'Ruby' in good color will not keep a _Neoregelia _ "Fireball" from stretching, even though the Neo may be 8" *closer* to the light. (Q: Why is Ruby in single quotes and Fireball in double quotes? Any takers?  

9) However, one reason some of us old-school people (I have been doing this consistently since 1987) may feel the way we do is lighting. Back in the day, you were mad hi-tech if you had TWO Vitalites or Verilux on your tank. "HO-T5" was something for the Terminator or the X-Men). Hell I know guys my age and older that still--dig this--go "One warm white, one cool white." I ain't making this up. 

I have had good success growing _Neo ampullaceae_, _dungsiana_ and _liliputiana_ under full spectrum T 8s (first Vitalites, now ExoTerras) But I have never grown anything under "HO T5's" (sorry, I cannot even write that without wondering: Who would win in real life, Arnold Schwarzenneger or Robert Patrick? Or for that matter, Robert Patrick or Jim Gandolfini? I digress...)

Any thoughts on this? I'd like to hear your comments and observations--especially on how your tank lighting affects your plant's growth habits.


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

I've lost many of the things on your "Top 5" list. I've never lost a neo. They seem to be more forgiving. Mine do fine under T5 HO lamps. 

People like neos because of the reasons you've listed. Mostly, though, people buy what you tell them to buy. Get vendors to tout the other broms and they will sell just as well.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

The only neo Ive lost color with is my fireball. Its under compact florecent lighting and is completly green.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

its hard to find non neorgalias with as much color or pattern as the neos for oe
its really hrd to find intersting broms from other genuses that stay small!

Vresia heiroglyphica is my #1 favorite brom, but theres no way it would fit in my 16 vert


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Personally I think there is a very simple, easy answer to this.

Neoregelia do not get to be 3' across, or 4' tall.


Lots of other great stuff out there, but they just don't fit into a vivarium unless you are the San Diego Zoo and have one that is hundreds of square feet.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Nathan: Under CFLS and completely green?!? What a pain in the $#@#

Occidentalis: I am surprised, which ones did you have problems with?

My favorite bromeliad is _Vriesea splendens_, also too big for most tanks...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Hey IA:

1) I just got an _Alcantarea imperialis_ for my Zoomed tank 

Although, for those who have seen, you know this plant could accomodate whole communities of frogs...

(I may try one in our rock garden. These things can really tolerate some cold.)

2) If I had a room sized enclosure, I think I'd require _Neoregelia pauciflora_. Easy and very attractive with its cascading stolons.


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

"Ruby" is in quotes because it is a clone. I think the recent understanding of Fireball is that it is a species now, rather than a clone. Yes, we should write it Neo. fireball, but nothing has to make sense.

Pitcairnia flammea stays pretty small... And there are neoregelias which get immense. It is a matter of plant selection.

I disagree a bit with the color problems. Some clones are better than others at maintaining color in low light. Appropriately enough, I find that "Spotted Frog" holds up great. Fireballs that start out deep pink or red will often fade several shades, although at the top of my tanks they keep quite good color.

I do sell bromeliads other than neoregelia. But few people buy them, so it is difficult to justify. Pitcairnia flammea is my slowest mover (and for me the slowest grower, too), but probably the best tank plant. I have some small guzmania, but they sell like crap. Vriesia sell pretty well. Cryptanthus are excellent, but I have trouble finding anything at wholesale other than "Black Mystic", so I have to rely on my own production for other clones. I can't keep most of my neoregelia in stock, even though they pup like crazy the supply outstrips the demand. I can assure you that if demand for other bromeliad genera increases, you'll see more supply.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

> I do sell bromeliads other than neoregelia. But few people buy them, so it is difficult to justify. Pitcairnia flammea is my slowest mover (and for me the slowest grower, too), but probably the best tank plant. I have some small guzmania, but they sell like crap. Vriesia sell pretty well. Cryptanthus are excellent, but I have trouble finding anything at wholesale other than "Black Mystic", so I have to rely on my own production for other clones. I can't keep most of my neoregelia in stock, even though they pup like crazy the supply outstrips the demand. I can assure you that if demand for other bromeliad genera increases, you'll see more supply.


I think a lot of that is just education. I think I am a typical brom-ignorant frog enthusiast with a bunch of tanks full of neos and I would love to try other broms. I just don't know what will work in viv conditions and not outgrow the tank. Most sites are only marginally helpful in their descriptions, so I just go with what I know.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have a few Bilbergias I am quite happy with, the tubular growth really holds a lot of h2o, and the flowers are tops in my mind for brom showiness.

I am itching to get a Quesnelia marmorata. I love that brom, and it looks so AWESOME
AND Im always looking for other stuff. Not enough people try Vresia racinae IMO, great brom


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

I myself prefer to keep Neos and smaller Vrieseas and have not yet ventured any further than that only down to the fact I have never seen any of the other generas easily available.

I do however think you are right about the influencial factor when it comes to choosing Neos.

Most of the talk on here when bromeliads are concerned is about a Neo of some sort, second to that would be Vrieseas on occasion.

Richie


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

littlefrog said:


> I do sell bromeliads other than neoregelia. But few people buy them, so it is difficult to justify. Pitcairnia flammea is my slowest mover (and for me the slowest grower, too), but probably the best tank plant. I have some small guzmania, but they sell like crap. Vriesia sell pretty well. Cryptanthus are excellent, but I have trouble finding anything at wholesale other than "Black Mystic", so I have to rely on my own production for other clones. I can't keep most of my neoregelia in stock, even though they pup like crazy the supply outstrips the demand. I can assure you that if demand for other bromeliad genera increases, you'll see more supply.


I completely agree!

We've got a couple Vriesias available - We hardly sell any at all. Our Cryptanthus and Guzmanias barely moved at all last year. Hopefully once things warm up a bit we'll have more interest in the funky stuff. We'll see.

For 90% of the hobbyists out there Neoregelias are a good choice since they are easy as heck and really nice to look at.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

'Ruby' is in single quotes bc it is a cultivar name and the code dictates that cultivar names be single quoted. Fireball is a species. It has never been given an official Latin name however. 

Neos are just better broms for the dart frog terrarium. Color, availability, size and price are part of it. Sure, many others work but they don't have the "pizzaz" that Neos have. I have tried selling others and they do sell but selling 1 or 2 of something is not exactly gonna help keep it on my bench (as a retailer). 

Honestly, most Vriesea and Tillies are just plain boring. They are okay as accent plants sometimes but when you want a nice focal point, a beautiful Neo is second to none.

There are some fantastic Aechmea also and I have tried but they just don't sell. I dunno, Groundhog. If you ever try to breed thumbs, you'll quickly see why a good water holding Neo is the way to go.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

You had that awesome mini red Aechmea that looked AMAZING Antone.
I know the jungle is mostly green, but all green broms is just boring to me. I like spots and stripes. But then agin I also think jewel orchids and Bulbophyllums look great in dart vivs, Im not exactly trying for biotopes every time.


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## JoeGecko (Dec 18, 2009)

Love the topic...great idea. SO as a new guy to this area I have done a fair amount of research and IMO Neos seem to be the devils ivy of viv broms. Easy to grow, tolorant. etc..
Now I must admit I have a 'Lamberts Pride' which I like, but it is, by far not my focal. I think maybe most people put the plants as second choice when setting up a viv and I also think the Neos are more readily available in the big box stores. Lets face it, instant gratification might play a big role in this too.



Frogtofall said:


> Honestly, most Vriesea and Tillies are just plain boring. They are okay as accent plants sometimes but when you want a nice focal point, a beautiful Neo is second to none.


Frogtofall, you are soo right but I think you should try Tillandsia fasciculata (of which I have a wonderful one I rescued from the forest floor) and even Tillandsia bartramii (which grows like a weed in my backyard) in its own right is very simple and attractive. Tillandsia fasciculata is not for the smaller viv though.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Frogtofall said:


> Honestly, most Vriesea and Tillies are just plain boring. .


Huh? Smile when you say that 
"
Seriously, Antone, it seems that I am more of a "Tillandsioid" enthusiast, while you are more a "Bromelioid" enthusiast. I just like swordlike inflorescences with some leaf color; I guess my favorite ___eliads are discolor vrieseas with a nice inflorescence. (By contrast, one of my favorite bromelioids is _Aechmena chantinii_, but I don't have the light for it...) 

You don't like stolohiferous vrieseas? Like _V. vagans _or _V. lubbersii_? Or big impressive tillandsias like wagneriana or xerographica?


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Actually, as I understand it, 'single' quotes denote hybrid or cultivar:
_
Begonia_ 'Buttercup'
Neoregelia 'Spotted Frog'

"Double" quotes denote a yet unnamed species:

_Neoregelia_ "Fireball"
_Sinningia_ "Florianopolis"
_Neoregelia_ "Rio das pedras"


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I do like them and i actually grow 2 forms of V vagans and other Tillandsioids I just prefer Neos both in the GH and my Vivs.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Antone: Have you tried V. vagans in a tank?

Incidentally, on the thread with the putative Fiucs pumila, is that a V. vagans?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Groundhog said:


> Antone: Have you tried V. vagans in a tank?
> 
> Incidentally, on the thread with the putative Fiucs pumila, is that a V. vagans?


I have not tried it in a viv for a few reasons.

1) When I first found out about the species a few years ago, I was under the impression that it was rather difficult to grow. Tropiflora had killed it on many occasions and I don't think even Michael had it at the time.

2) When I DID finally manage to obtain a specimen, I only had the one and it was just a small pup. After having it for a little while, it began to degrade but I managed to save it based on advice given to me: Lots of food, lots of light and don't over water it. I try my best to ignore it also.

3) When I had heard of people trying it in terraria, the stories usually ended with them rotting so I stayed away.

Its been 3yrs or so since I got my first pup and now I have 3 mother plants and 9 pups spread about the 3 mothers. I've gotten the plant to the point where my pups have no problems rooting. Not sure if this makes sense but I think I've grown the problems out of them. I may try it.

I have tried V. erythrodactylon Mini in vivs and its a fantastic plant if you can keep it away from the top of the viv. Holds water and stays small.

The plants you're asking about I believe the terrarium builder said were V. vagans although they look like V. erythrodactylon to me b/c of the general habit. I've never grown V. vagans in a viv though so I dunno what they'd look like after being in one for a while.


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Groundhog said:


> Antone: Have you tried V. vagans in a tank?
> 
> Incidentally, on the thread with the putative Fiucs pumila, is that a V. vagans?


Is this by any chance sNapple's viv you are referring to?

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/23744-snapples-44gal-viv-8.html


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Sweet. Thanks for the link. It looks like they are V. erythrodactylon. I think in the first iteration of the viv, there is a V. vagans in the back right corner.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Simply, bromeliads for me need to be able to be grown in a humid tank, hold water, and not rot or curl up and turn brown, because they're for egg feeders. Neoregelias are great for this, especially for pumilio, I just started using some of the little larger ones for histrionicus, and I'm using Vriesea Splendens in 2 histrionicus tanks http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/49698-some-girls-such-attention-hogs.html , I recently cut off the flower spikes because of their weight and cut the leaves down by half, they seem to be doing good, for some strange reason though anytime I get a really bright red Neoregelia they seem to die as soon as they get into a tank, but if any of the plants you suggested would do this job at the 2.50-3.00 each price I can get the Neoregelias for, I would be glad to try them


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