# Fantastica True Nominal for a beginner frog keeper



## boxturtlemon (Jul 20, 2021)

Hi

I would like to start keeping dart frogs and True Nominals really stand out to me as spectacular. And I wanted to do a sanity check with you.

From what I read they are considered advanced: quick, propensity to bolt out and some documents say difficult to breed. I am likely missing something here.

In the animal keeping hobby I think there are different types of beginners. Everyone from a child with no experience getting a first pet and someone who has been keeping reptiles including some species that are considered advanced level (sensitive to husbandry errors) for about 10 years. I fall into the latter category. While I have kept no amphibians ever, I think it is about time.

My philosophy has always been, get what I really want instead of getting ‘practice animals’ but only when I feel absolutely ready through intensive research. It has worked for me thus far. I know there are easier thumbnails or better yet tincs, auratus and leucs. Knowing all this, none of them awe me like those True Nominals.

By no means I am overconfident and it’s important not to be when living creatures are involved. I am also expecting a learning curve as I venture into the world of amphibians. Although I am familiar with meeting ideal parameters for sensitive creatures, frogs are not the same as snakes or lizards.

Ultimately I wanted to check in with you to see if these absolutely should not be kept by first time froggers for reasons you may provide. I am ready to read some stern advices and I actually welcome it. I may need to hear those.

Thanks for your time


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Sounds like you already know the right course of action, but I'll add some extra credence. I've kept a few different forms of fantastica, including the true nominal, and they are NOT a starter frog. They are finicky about eating if you aren't providing the right prey items, they don't tolerate temperature swings very well, they are FAST and they spook easily, meaning that they can exit an enclosure and disappear under a heavy piece of furniture long before you have time to react. I could go on, but do I really need to? 
Don't consider tinctorius, auratus, leucomelas as "practice" frogs, but rather essential elements in your process of becoming a well-versed frogger that is capable of keeping advanced specimens. Who knows, you might even discover that you enjoy keeping hardier species even more than the difficult ones. I know I do.


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## boxturtlemon (Jul 20, 2021)

Hi Dane
Thanks for your reply. I’ve thought through the warnings you mention and think I would be up for those challenges. If you could actually list the other criteria that makes them more challenging, I would appreciate it as that is essentially what I want to hear.

For prey items I culture several types of springtails (temperate, white tropical and pink tropical), melanogaster and hydei. I’ve been making my own media with a great result for a while now. I have isopods, bean beetles, cancer beetles, etc. I am not sure if True Nominals would take them though. For temperature stability I have both a tropical and a cold room where I keep my animals. I control the ambient temperature and while there is still a little bit of gradient within this rooms, the set temperature is very stable throughout. Yes I hear they are quick and I have experience with tiny, arboreal, bolty creatures although none of them were frogs.

From having been around it is indeed frustrating when a newcomer doesn’t heed a good warning and I wouldn’t want to be -that- guy 😊, also at the same time only I can truly assess my abilities as we aren’t familiar with each other yet. Anything else that you can share would be appreciated so I can make a good decision for myself.

Cheers


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Dane's response was spot on, but I will add the biggest reason that you might not want Nominals Fants to be your first frog - you aren't likely to see them very often. I almost never see my breeding group. The thing that makes that ok for me is that I have the babies to look at all the time in my office and they aren't my only frogs. It is really hard to develop good husbandry techniques when you don't see your critters very often. You need to have experience with whether your frogs are eating, whether they are bullying each other, whether your temperature and humidity conditions are to their liking, etc. That is all hard to do when you don't often lay eyes on your critters  There is also the factor that you will want to show your friends your frogs and you will always have to say "here's what you should be seeing...". I have tanks in my collection with really frogs that are likely to be out all the time just because of that factor. I have plenty of frogs where I have to say "wait til we get in the other room and I can show you the babies." It's just nice to have frogs that are out and about. Nominals are not that frog.

I have had Nominals for years and wouldn't characterize them as good first frogs necessarily. Now, when you get more tanks and you have some experience with more visible frogs, they are a great addition to a collection. I wouldn't suggest learning on them, though.

Mark


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## boxturtlemon (Jul 20, 2021)

Hi Mark
I think you make a very good point about gauging the wellness of the animal when it can’t easily be seen. I have some elusive animals that don’t like to be seen and I like them just the same, if not more, whenever I do get a chance to see them. I find that nature strikes a good balance and a lot of the more beautiful or colorful animals are more shy and delicate. I am thinking about installing cameras to watch over the True Nominals, everything I read seem to indicate they are people-shy and I wonder if I can observe them remotely that way. I find that cameras work well for confirming copulation, acclimating new arrivals in quarantine and whenever I have to go away for a bit.

Now your advice hasn’t fallen on deaf ears. This weekend I am transferring some animals to a client of mine and from the looks of it he does seem fantastica although not True Nominals. I will have to strike up a conversation with him about this and go over what’s been mentioned in this thread. Maybe some imitator will do if it doesn’t seem like the best idea for now, they are still fantastic too I think.
Thanks


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## papaburt4 (Apr 26, 2021)

In my experience you'll like your boldest frogs the most regardless of how cool their markings are (unless you have a massive collection). I've heard some stories of fantastica that are only seen a few times a year. Which sucks to you as the viewer but is probably worse for them


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## boxturtlemon (Jul 20, 2021)

Yesterday I was able to visit my client’s place and it turns out he is working with a breeding group of True Nominals.

From what I understand now these are not difficult to keep in the right set up nor are they particularly shy after given sometime as a breeding group. In fact many were still visible with my scary face leering into the tank. He keeps them in a 90 gallon glass cube top opening custom with cross ventilation, a misting system, computer fans, and a drain hole. The tankscape is carefully thought out, busy and incredible. I am going to commission him to build me the exact replica.

The problem with keeping True Nominals as I understand maybe a combination of factors we discussed in the thread that is facilitated by improper husbandry. For one, in some of commercially available smaller front opening tanks with shallow depth frogs may feel claustrophobic during maintenance. This is a perfect recipe for them to jump out through the front opening. In a sizable set up with a top half opening you can shoo them away more easily. Again it makes sense to me. He hasn’t had any escapes this way. It is not easier for humans to have the top opening but with patience and strategic placement of the tank I don’t see it as an issue. I always subscribed to the party of doing what is best instead of what is easier for myself. The real difficult part I am told is finding eggs in the bonsai rainforest. I took some photos of this set up but I will need to ask for permission before posting them.

I wanted to share what I found out for the sake of sharing information that others may find helpful. Also be advised individual experiences due to the individuality of frogs may vary. I’ve also been around enough to know their behavior once relocated to a different location may change. I am expecting small skittish frogs to take their time in acclimating to a new surrounding with a different routine.

I appreciate the feedbacks in here and understand why you’d want to promote things in a standardized 1-2-3 process for beginners, although one size may not fit all. I am left with the impression these should not be an impulse pick up but rather for the conscientious keeper who can adjust to the animal’s behavior. Surely many out there are eating, digesting and breeding for far less. I look forward to getting True Nominals when my set up is ready.

Cheers


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

I'll preface this by saying that this comment in no way contains actual advice - just an anecdotal story of my True Nominal fantastica experience.

While generalizations can certainly be made about the boldness or shyness of species, all frogs are individuals and have their own "personalities" for lack of a better word. 
I currently have 6 true nominals in a well planted 60 gallon tank - two males from an initial group, and 4 unsexed frogs around 6 - 7 months. The plan is to build a group of no more than 4 and remove the additional frogs once all are sexable. Anyway... 
The original 2 males are both shy. One I might catch a few glimpses of every day. The other was extremely shy and I'd only see him occasionally. Of the new group of 4 frogs, 1 is extremely shy - I might catch a glimpse every week or so if I'm patient. The other 3 are incredibly bold. One of those 3 is exceptionally bold - like tinctorius level bold. His name is Bolt. (Yes, I name my frogs - for practical reason. 😅 ) Those 3 are visible most of the time. They have plenty of hiding places but are usually out in the open near the front of the tank, or perched on an exposed leaf or piece of wood. Their boldness has also drawn out the original males to be much more visible more often. 

I keep a feeding station near the front of the tank where I place a small piece of banana and they are often all just sitting there watching it in case a fly wanders by. Of the thumbnail species I've worked with, they are also the most aggressive eaters. (Had to edit to say it's a close call between these and R. sirensis "Highland") When I open the tank to feed, the 3 bolder frogs do not retreat much if at all - particularly the boldest. ** I absolutely do not recommend this but...** While feeding, I can actually pick up the leaf that Bolt is sitting on and hold it in my hand while I sprinkle flies on for him to eat. I believe he would eat out of my hand but I do not directly touch my frogs outside of absolute necessity. 

I got this species believing it would be one of the most reclusive of the frogs that I keep. I actually don't mind building a nice tank that's fun to look at on it's own with the possibility of catching a glimpse of a frog being a bonus. But half of my current group has really surprised me by their boldness. Now the fantastica tank is the one tank that I can walk by and be certain of seeing frogs.

Again. This is not advice that True Nominals are actually bold. It's certainly not advice that they are the best frog for a beginner. This is just my experience, so I thought I'd share.

Here are a couple snacking on some springtails, oblivious to me and the camera.


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