# alive or dead ?



## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

First let me say I love this site, I've been able to answer so many questions I've had by just reading threads and not even having to ask questions. My terribilis have been laying eggs for some weeks and I was quite concerned that I was messing something up terribly  but after some reading found that this is not unusual with first spawning attempts. but 8 days ago I was finally able to get a few eggs to start development its such a cool feeling to see life develop right before your eyes ! two of the eggs are starting to look funky to me or at least they do not look like the others. in one of the pics the the egg in question is in the middle (sorry about the reflection) the other is the lone egg in the frame. was wondering if any hobbyists with more experience than me could offer an opinion,


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I am, by no means, an expert. However, the 2 you pointed out look funky to me too. Grats on the eggs, btw


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Once a developing egg/tad starts to look fuzzy or cloudy we usually don't have much success with them... but at least you are making progress! Congrats on the fertilized eggs!


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## Gumby (May 27, 2010)

I have seen this occur with a clutch my Azureus produced. They laid 9 eggs in their second clutch and they all started to develope. All but two started to look "Funky" like yours above. They ended up molding over and I was left with two tads. Of those two only one of them broke free of the egg. Now, my pair has everything down. They are laying clutches that develope nicely without the funkyness. Give them some time and they should start producing good eggs. Also make sure you are supplementing them because this may be the issue as well.

-Chris


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

Thanks much for that input, so I'm thinking I should remove the funky eggs


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

bristles said:


> Thanks much for that input, so I'm thinking I should remove the funky eggs


This is tricky, I would wait and hope some grow out of the egg before trying to manually seperate them. If they all go bad... It truly is nature, and these reproductive failures will soon be replaced by success. As stated the pair almost always will lay some crappy clutches before good, viable clutches are produced. 

My theory: Even if you get a tad or 2 from the moldy clutch, they will in no way be as prolific as tads from a healthier clutch.

Best of luck, keep us all posted!

JBear


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

It doesn't always look the same in a photo as in person. Did you add water to the dish? The surface of the eggs look almost sticky, like they might be too dry. Also, assuming you did add water, what kind of water did you use? Has it been treated? Meth blue added to the water or tad tea?

None of those eggs have a nice crisp look to the edges of the developing tad. It might just be the photo. If I only have a bad egg or two, I just leave them alone. If the bad eggs out number the good ones, I usually pull the bad ones to prevent them from over powering the good ones.

At least you do have development. So at least you know you have a breeding pair and they will get it right soon. Maybe I just missed it, what morph of terribilis are they?

Good luck,
Deb


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

They are orange terribilis, I dont have a RO unit so I've been using distilled water thats what I use in the viv for the water fall I have been misting the eggs twice a day and have a tiny amount of meth blue in the water. if the eggs do hatch I was planing on using 1/2 tap (well water) & 1/2 distilled for the tads, I dont know how to make the tea I've seen numerous references to it but no recipes


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

What has worked best for me is just using tadpole tea. I keep a 5 gal bucket with indian almond leaves soaking and just take the water from there.

What supplements are you using for your frogs? I believe you said the eggs are terribilis, these frogs usually require more Vit A, so using a product like Rephashy ICB combined with the other supplements you may be using will help.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

The tadpole tea is extremely easy. I just buy a jug of spring water...crunch up some Indian Almond leaves and throw them in there. After a short while, it gets pretty dark and is ready to use. I also throw some pieces of Almond leaf in the tad cup...gives them something to munch on and hide under.


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm guessing that the almond leaves are sold by some of the site sponsors ? when you folks say some leaves, so like are we talking maybe 12 leaves to a gallon ? and you think straight spring water with no soft water is the way to go. also as for the supplements I use Repashy Calcium plus ICB & Repashy supervite dust, & Repashy superPig I alternate the vitamins & calcium every other feeding & do the superpig once a week. I read on one of the threads about possibly overdosing supplements, I had never considered that, any opinions on that topic ?


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Yes...I ordered my Indian Almond leaves from Josh's Frogs...& you should be able to find them on other sponsor's sites as well. I did use simply a gallon of spring water straight from the store & didn't count the leaves when I put them in...just grabbed some and crunched them up...prolly was closer to a half dozen give or take. (They're pretty big leaves.)

I think your vitamin routine is pretty close to what many others are doing. You should be okay there.


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

Just a update, almond leaves from Josh's should arrive tomorrow. you guys were right about the cloudy ones they did not make it. two of them hatched (well I guess hatch in not the right term but the are out of the jelly) they are more lethargic than I expected they do not move much at all. I think it was jbherpin said the tads from a moldy clutch are not as robust as normal ones. from what I have read I should not attempt to feed them for a few days (2-3 ? ) I change the water every other day I have bits of live oak leaves (till almond leaves come) and some foxtail + algae from one of my aquariums in their cups was planning to feed them tetra min or some fry pellets. posting a couple pics any thoughts ?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Grats!

Ok I'm still a noob myself, so take this as advice from a noob 

I think that maybe there is too much stuff on top. The tads will come up for air and they need to have access to the surface. Not sure that's true, though. Hopefully someone else will comment.

Some of us don't completely change the water. Some do. There are some good threads on tadpole water and water changes around here somewhere. 

Are they in separate containers? I've read that they can be cannibalistic.


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

good point, I will reduce the plant material. Was going to use GP Reef & Larval Fish Diet 500-800 micron particle size for a food source it works great for the fry of tropical fish (fresh water). does any one have experience with this food for frogs ?


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

frogface said:


> Are they in separate containers? I've read that they can be cannibalistic.


Actually, terribilis can be raised in a community setup, but they are voracious feeders. I've raised many tads and my terrib (mints & orange) can out eat anything else. I feed mostly the micro seron pellets, but also some tad bites, some fish flakes and about once a week some defrosted bloodworms. As soon as you put in the worms, each tad grabs one up and you can see them swimming with a worm sticking out of their mouth and munching away.

Your tads look good in the pic. They will liven up after a day or two and you can start feeding them. They grow very quickly.

Deb


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm actually morphing out three Mint Terribilis tads that I received mid-December as we speak! 

They're not cannibalistic and can be kept together. I kept them in a 16 oz container with tadpole tea and some extra bits of Indian Almond leaf (for cover, tannins, and munching on). I fed them small amounts daily (although I guess many feed larger amounts only a few times a week). I gave them 1-2 tadpole bites coated in Sera Micron each (depending on age) most days, but 1 day a week I fed a small amount of fruit flies only, and about 1-2 days a week was fish food only. I only changed about 1/3 of the water each week (basically just trying to suck out all of the yuck out of the bottom) and refilled with tadpole tea.

So far, they're turning out nicely! I've just moved them recently to a morph-out container. One came out of the water late Wednesday night & the other two are ready to any minute. Here are some blurry pics that I took the other day from my crappy camera...


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Oops! Deleted.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

salix said:


> Actually, terribilis can be raised in a community setup, but they are voracious feeders. I've raised many tads and my terrib (mints & orange) can out eat anything else. I feed mostly the micro seron pellets, but also some tad bites, some fish flakes and about once a week some defrosted bloodworms. As soon as you put in the worms, each tad grabs one up and you can see them swimming with a worm sticking out of their mouth and munching away.
> 
> Your tads look good in the pic. They will liven up after a day or two and you can start feeding them. They grow very quickly.
> 
> Deb


That's good to know about terribilis. They are near the top of my 'list'. 

For some reason I thought his were azureus tads. Don't know why, since his post clearly says terribilis.


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

great feedback, cant thank you folks enough . salix I have live white worm cultures for my fish do you think one single worm would be to much for a tad also what is your water change approach ? Wendy I appreciate your input very much when you say you feed ff I assume you mean melaganaster how do you do it ? just a few on the water surface ? the tads come to the surface and predate them ?


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

bristles said:


> salix I have live white worm cultures for my fish do you think one single worm would be to much for a tad also what is your water change approach ?


I'm not quite sure about the white worm culture, I've never used them. I looked them up on a website and they appear to be about the same size. I'm guessing they are about the same as a tubifex worm? If so, I'm sure they would be fine. Drop in a few and see if they go for them.

I do minimal water changes. Mostly I just siphon out the crud with a turkey baster if it gets real bad and then top up with fresh water. For water, I use tap water treated for chorine/choloramine. But I do live in the country and our water has minimal chemical treatment. If you feed live/frozen foods, your water will get bad quicker, so you do have to make sure you keep an eye on it. But the tads will love it and grow like weeds.

If the water gets really bad, I just dump the tads & water through a brine shrimp net, refill the cup and drop them back in. This technique was given to me by a long-time frogger and I've used it ever since. Tads are actually amaziningly hardy.

Once I got some size on the terrib tads, I put them into a shoebox with a few inches of water. There's a large clump of java moss floating in the water and a piece of styrofoam. The styrofoam island is for emergency land in case I miss someone ready to climb out. I generally catch those ready to morph, but the piece of styrofoam is an insurance policy for me. I currently have about 40 fairly large mint tads in the shoebox and they are just starting to get back legs.

Good luck with yours,
Deb


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

bristles said:


> Wendy I appreciate your input very much when you say you feed ff I assume you mean melaganaster how do you do it ? just a few on the water surface ? the tads come to the surface and predate them ?


Yes...I just shake in some live melano fruit flies and from what I've observed I don't think they ever eat them from the surface, they just wait until they've drown. The same goes with the fish food...never from the surface, only from the bottom.


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm pumped that I've been able to keep the two tads alive for 13 days now. Got the leaves from Joshs and have tad tea for them, have a little Java moss & algae in their cups. They seem to move a bit more (but not a lot) have not seen them eat except once one of them pecked at some mud that was on the white worm that I put it's cup.
The frogs laid 4 more eggs this week (seems like a small number compared to what I've read ) only one is starting to develop, a strange thing about the egg petri dish was there seemed to be quite a number of blobs of what looked to be the jelly that surrounds eggs only there was no egg in them.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Your tad looks great, I'm sure it's going to do fine at this point.

And I'm sorry, I'm too lazy to go back and read all through the thread. How many frogs do you have in the tank? Is there more than the pair? If you have extras (females in particular), they may be egg eating.

On the other hand, it just may be a young pair just getting the hang of laying. I frequently find extra jelly with a clutch, mostly with larger species of frogs.

I just pulled a clutch of 16 from my mints tonight. This was the first time they laid on a leaf in the viv. Much harder to mess with than when they cooperate and lay on the petri dish!

Deb


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

There are 4 frogs in the tank, was wondering if some might be eaten as I read somewhere that it can happen. But they are young so I guess it might be either scenario. 
I would start river dancing if I found 16 eggs at once !


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

bristles said:


> I would start river dancing if I found 16 eggs at once !


Be careful of what you wish for!

I currently have about 60+ mint tads with probably another 30+ eggs developing! 

I need to get my pair shut down! So far they've had an extremely high rate of eggs/hatch.

Deb


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