# Terribilis Suceptability Advice



## Frogs 'n' Things (Dec 23, 2007)

I'd like to start a discussion on two common problems I've seen in my terribilis collection. I've seen some light discussion on these on the board, but really no clear conclusions or prevention advice.

1) Foot sores. I know terribilis are prone to skin infections, and almost all pics you find of foot sores in pdfs are of terribilis. But, does anyone know how to avoid these? About 1/2 my terribilis have developed these. Triple sulfa does a great job in healing them up if caught in time, but there has to be a better way of avoiding the sores in the first place. It is not a contagion - co-inhabiting frogs are fine, not seen on other parts of the body, never seen on my other varieties of pfs, and it shows up in separately housed/quarantined individuals. Only thing I can think of is the substrate is not ideal or too wet. I use sphagnum moss. Temps range from 68-77F. 90-100% humidity. 

2) Bloat. Two of my females are puffed up (no, seriously ). Looks like a male after croaking with puffed out abdomen and throat sack. These are both proven females, so something else is going on here. I thought it might be from over feeding, but after 1+ month of feeding only 1x per week, there is no change. I've seen this mentioned on the web, but no follow-ups on what the problem is. They are fed primarily bean beetles (stopped feeding crickets as I thought they might be injuring the frogs and causing the sores).

Thanks for your advice,

Keith


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frogs 'n' Things said:


> I'd like to start a discussion on two common problems I've seen in my terribilis collection. I've seen some light discussion on these on the board, but really no clear conclusions or prevention advice.
> 
> 1) Foot sores. I know terribilis are prone to skin infections, and almost all pics you find of foot sores in pdfs are of terribilis. But, does anyone know how to avoid these? About 1/2 my terribilis have developed these. Triple sulfa does a great job in healing them up if caught in time, but there has to be a better way of avoiding the sores in the first place. It is not a contagion - co-inhabiting frogs are fine, not seen on other parts of the body, never seen on my other varieties of pfs, and it shows up in separately housed/quarantined individuals. Only thing I can think of is the substrate is not ideal or too wet. I use sphagnum moss. Temps range from 68-77F. 90-100% humidity.
> 
> 2) Bloat. Two of my females are puffed up (no, seriously ). Looks like a male after croaking with puffed out abdomen and throat sack. These are both proven females, so something else is going on here. I thought it might be from over feeding, but after 1+ month of feeding only 1x per week, there is no change. I've seen this mentioned on the web, but no follow-ups on what the problem is. They are fed primarily bean beetles (stopped feeding crickets as I thought they might be injuring the frogs and causing the sores).




I would suspect that husbandry in the long term is going to play out as the problem with the foot sores in terriblis. I have never been fond of the "stale" air maximized humidity all year round method of dendrobatid keeping... 

With respect to bloat.. there are a lot of potential causes ranging from toxicities to infections to enviromental factors that prevent efficient osmoregulation but this is probably going to remain a lot of voodoo until people start getting necropsies done and correlate them with husbandry issues. Active cases should at the very least be getting a symptomatic treatment while medical work-ups are done. (Amphibians ringer soaks and quarantine enclosure with new substrate). 


Ed


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

My problems with Columbian Phyllobates went away when I started keeping the froglets in ventilated sweater boxes (75% humidity) on aquarium plant gravel (fluorite) with leaf litter instead of moss or a dirt mix. The temps never got above 76. 

When the froglets were big enough to actually ingest the gravel the crickets were put into short plastic cups set into the substrate.

Gravel was washed every other week with near boiling water and boiled after a batch of frogs was out the door.

Best


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

When is the last time you replaced the sphagnum moss?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Also, sometimes the frogs can ingest substrate and it can become impacted in their gut. 

Just curious---have the females been breeding for you at all?


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## Frogs 'n' Things (Dec 23, 2007)

No, the females have not bred of late, another indicator that somthing is not right.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Frogs 'n' Things said:


> No, the females have not bred of late, another indicator that somthing is not right.


Try putting in a shallow dish of water---see if they sit in it for any length of time---they could be egg-bound, which is strongly suggested by the fact that the females are the only ones bloated.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

If breeding does not soon start after this day of soaking, and they continue to sit in the water---and they are housed with healthy males---it may be an issue that the vet needs to see---you can send pics and an explanation to Dr. Frye at [email protected]. 
Sitting in water for extended periods of time may indicate that there is a significant health issue such as a parasite overload, a bacterial infection or gut impaction.


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## Frogs 'n' Things (Dec 23, 2007)

Tx. They don't use the H20 features in the tanks though.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I would have to say that I think you should replace your sphagnum moss with live moss---it is less abrasive since the wiry strands in the center of inert sphagnum can sometimes rub a frog foot the wrong way. 
Also, do you have any mortar in your water feature or rough edges on wood in your tank? Even the top of a cocohut that's not sanded smooth could hurt a frog foot. That could easily be part of the problem. 

As to the bloating---if it does not extend to the limbs, it sounds like it's more of a digestive/reproductive issue rather than an infection or parasite---try varying the diet a bit more. They really do better with a rich diet. I did read that bean beetles can claw at their throats as well. You might try phoenix worms or meal worms instead for the fat/protein benefit. 

Also, be sure they're getting a good Vitamin A supplement---Ed can help more with nutrients/supps than I can. Repashy is a good one to get---they sell it in smaller quantities at Josh's Frogs. Also, vitamins should be replaced every six months if they're stored in a humid room. 

That's all I got!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Also, are they housed in single-species' tanks? 

You might try to put mated pairs into their own tank to see if that spurs on breeding.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

"1) Foot sores. I know terribilis are prone to skin infections, and almost all pics you find of foot sores in pdfs are of terribilis. But, does anyone know how to avoid these? About 1/2 my terribilis have developed these. Triple sulfa does a great job in healing them up if caught in time, but there has to be a better way of avoiding the sores in the first place. It is not a contagion - co-inhabiting frogs are fine, not seen on other parts of the body, never seen on my other varieties of pfs, and it shows up in separately housed/quarantined individuals. Only thing I can think of is the substrate is not ideal or too wet. I use sphagnum moss. Temps range from 68-77F. 90-100% humidity.

2) Bloat. Two of my females are puffed up (no, seriously ). Looks like a male after croaking with puffed out abdomen and throat sack. These are both proven females, so something else is going on here. I thought it might be from over feeding, but after 1+ month of feeding only 1x per week, there is no change. I've seen this mentioned on the web, but no follow-ups on what the problem is. They are fed primarily bean beetles (stopped feeding crickets as I thought they might be injuring the frogs and causing the sores)."


1.) I have personally found that Terribilis hate sphagnum moss, anytime i tried using it the frogs freaked the heck out. I have no problems using it with other frogs.

I previously had a Terribilis with a foot sore and I was told by several breeders i spoke to here that Terribilis are a frog which cannot tolerate wetness or sitting on rough objects for very long. It is best to keep them with some slate pieces in their tank. Since adding the slate in to my tanks my terribilis seem more happy.

2.) Have you changed anything in their supplements lately? I had a female that was doing this and it turns out that the supplements I was using were causing a reaction in her, as it was noticed always after using this supplement. Since then I use two other supplements and have noticed no issues.


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## Frogs 'n' Things (Dec 23, 2007)

Thanks everyone.
So, sounds like the consensous on the foot sores is that it is too wet. I'll change up the substrate and add more airation. Still trying to nail down the cause of the bloat.
Hexantranz, I saw your posts on the bloat issue. My frogs look similar to your pics, but worse. What supplements were you using and what did you switch to? I use repcal CA2+ and herptavite, alternating between the two each feeding. Brand new, so expiration should not be an issue. Bloated frogs are still eating, but more lazy than the others.
Has anyone else had issues w/ feeding bean beetles?
Thanks,
Keith


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

My terribilis eat ff's, bean beetles and 2 wk crickets on a regular basis and I've had no problems. When I open the top of their viv, they all look up and eagerly await the food dropping from above  I do have moss spread over the cocofiber and have had no problem. Of course, half of the bottom of their tank has been grown over with baby tears, so they have the option of where they want to sit or on some driftwood.

Deb


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Frogs 'n' Things said:


> Thanks everyone.
> So, sounds like the consensous on the foot sores is that it is too wet. I'll change up the substrate and add more airation. Still trying to nail down the cause of the bloat.
> Hexantranz, I saw your posts on the bloat issue. My frogs look similar to your pics, but worse. What supplements were you using and what did you switch to? I use repcal CA2+ and herptavite, alternating between the two each feeding. Brand new, so expiration should not be an issue. Bloated frogs are still eating, but more lazy than the others.
> Has anyone else had issues w/ feeding bean beetles?
> ...


The supplement causing the issues for me is Herpetal. I now alternate between Dendrocare and Korvimin DVT + Reptile.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If there is something with the moisture content that is causing problems with the frog's ability to osmoregulate them this can cause water retention however based on conversations with some pathologists, its often due to liver issues and if the supplement is too high in one of the fat soluble vitamins (A, D3, and/or E) then this may be a cause of the bloating. (However this is pure speculation as without a necropsy it won't be possible to tell). One shouldn't discount the chance that there is a subclinical infection that is causing problems.... supportive treatment such as soaks in amphibian ringers to allow the frogs to lose some of the excess fluids can be very helpful. 

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to answer this as I'm sure to get another ding from an anonymous person restating that I don't know what I'm talking about... 

Ed


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## Frogs 'n' Things (Dec 23, 2007)

Thanks Ed.
This is very helpful, and I'll give all of the above a try (except the necropsy unless one dies!).
I hope the "ding" was not from me. If so, it was not intended - I certainly respect you advice, experience and commitment to the board!
Keith


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure why I'm bothering to answer this as I'm sure to get another ding from an anonymous person restating that I don't know what I'm talking about...
> 
> Ed


It sure wasn't from me. I've given you at least two good rep marks as of late. I really benefit from your knowledge base---please stay on DB and don't let it get to you. I've been dinged for no logical reason before as well...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Off topic and the last I'll address it here... 

I didn't think it was any of you and it would take more than that for me to move along.. I was trying to get the person to come out and discuss it since the ding was for "not knowing what I'm talking about" and if there was a counter point, it should be discussed.... 

Ed


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