# Pots too small? Plants not growing, please help



## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

A few months ago, I completed and planted my first viv, for a sarasinorum gecko. I did tons of research, and it seemed that most viv builders were embedding 4" net pots into their backgrounds, so I built the background with three 4" peat pots embedded into it for vines and trailing plants.

Most of my practical growing experience comes from cannabis and garden cacti, and you can grow a surprisingly big cannabis plant from a 4" pot with the right nutrient flow, so I didn't think too much of it.

I planted the peat pots with rooted wandering Jew and pothos cuttings from my mother-in-law's house. However, the plants in the little pots didn't grow at all. After about a month, the lower leaves began to yellow, and the stems of the wandering Jew started to soften, which indicated a nutrient deficiency to me.

So, I mixed up some fertilizer from fish meal, shrimp meal, kelp meal, and sterilized animal dung, and sprinkled it at the base of the plants. After adding the ferts, the growth of the plants on the floor grew tremendously. However, the wandering jew in the pots only showed a short burst of growth before starting to yellow again. The pothos is still just dying. If anything, fertilizing hastened the pothos' demise.

Am I right in assuming that the vines in the pots grow poorly because of the small pot size? If so, what can I put in those pots that will grow well? I was originally worried that these "fast growing and impossible to kill" plants would take over the viv, but that is no danger whatsoever at this point.

In addition, can anyone tell me how long should expect to wait before the broms anchor themselves? The plant on the left started growing roots in very short order, and is even starting to throw a pup, but the one on the right hasn't shown signs of rooting at all. I'm not sure whether or not to be worried about it.

Lastly, the plant in the center and the fern came unlabelled. If anyone could identify them, that would be awesome.

Thanks,
Alex


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

The fern looks like _Asparagus sp._
Whats the humidity? The broms should anchor themselves within a week or two if the humidity is high.


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

Alex

What did you fill the pots with? My thought is that the soil in the pot was too wet without enough drainage which led to rot of the plants.

I don't think the pots sizing being too small was an issue since a lot of the plants we keep in the terrarium will grow right on the background in no pot at all.


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks for the ID on the fern!

The humidity was maintained at 75-95% for the first month of the viv's life to help the broms make the transition to growing on their own. After the first month, I let the misting cycle drop to the new caledonian appropriate twice a day, cycling from 95% at night to 65% in the middle of the day.

The substrate, in the pots and on the floor, is a free draining mix of about 25% tree fern, 35% orchid bark, and 45% coco coir. The pots have one drinking straw leading from the bottom most point of the pot out of the background as drainage. Is it possible that the substrate is waterlogged with only one straw for drainage?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

If that pic is recent/representative of your tank, it looks dry...that leaf litter should not ever be dry and crumbly looking....but maybe It is just the pic.

You may not have enough soil in the pots on that type of background, especially if you used net pots.

Your expectations for plant growth may be to much for these kind of plants...broms don't multiply super fast usually, especially if they aren't established, and the fern doesn't get to huge...Don't know what to say about the wandering jew except usually that stuff is hard to kill, if it is what I had and what comes up in a google search. I ripped that stuff out of a viv and left it bare root on a table for over a month and it was still alive.

Don't know what the center plant is.... My overall impression is that the tank just looks to dry for your geckos. Your substrate should always be moist...but not saturated usually. Not enough soil and/or to dry are my only theories though, to much light can yellow a plant. 

How large is the viv and how many watts of lighting are on it?


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## diggenem (Sep 2, 2011)

What kind of light servitude using wattage, color temp etc? I don't think the pots are the problem. I have plants in 3" pots imbedded in my background and the roots simply grow up and out the pots onto the background itself. Also as was mentioned before your viv looks a lil on the dry side

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

That picture was taken this morning. I had originally kept the tank significantly more wet, covering most of the screen top with plastic. However, rhacodactylus genus geckos require the tank to (mostly) dry out during the day, or they can develop respitory problems. So, I have been trying to mist on the same schedule the gecko will require.

The tank is an 18 g tall aquarium with screen top, and is lit with a 23 w daylight CFL.

I'm not expecting anything from the broms other than roots at this point. It is the normally weed-like vines that are slowly dying in the background that really bother me. There is a wandering jew on the ground level, as well, and that one has grown about 6-8 times as much as the ones in the pots.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Raptor22 said:


> That picture was taken this morning. I had originally kept the tank significantly more wet, covering most of the screen top with plastic. However, rhacodactylus genus geckos require the tank to (mostly) dry out during the day, or they can develop respitory problems. So, I have been trying to mist on the same schedule the gecko will require.
> 
> The tank is an 18 g tall aquarium with screen top, and is lit with a 23 w daylight CFL.
> 
> I'm not expecting anything from the broms other than roots at this point. It is the normally weed-like vines that are slowly dying in the background that really bother me. There is a wandering jew on the ground level, as well, and that one has grown about 6-8 times as much as the ones in the pots.


Well your light should be fine, if not actually under lit...I'd like 30+ watts on an 18 tall personally. 

I reviewed some more rhacodactylus care sheets...and I get the impression that the "dry out" period is more referencing tanks that are not actual vivariums but your old school paper towel/green carpet tanks with some rocks and sticks and maybe a potted plant or 2 in them kinda tank.

Their humidity range is 65-80%, so that is pretty much dart frog humidity...I would not go all screen top, at least not until you get more plants in there and/or those fill out a bit, that will help raise/keep the humidity up and slow down how fast the substrate dries out. 

I think you need a partially covered top with say a 1.5-3 inch wide strip of ventilation running the length of the top. You could even put a fan blowing over that, on 15 minute intervals every 2 hours or so....that should be plenty of ventilation to avoid any respiratory problems. I'd at least do a 50/50 covered tank.

It is likely some of those care sheets are old info passed along over the years before more gecko keepers were going to true vivariums instead of craptastic artificial tanks. Care sheets tend to get copy/pasted/paraphrased from site to site, year after year and the same outdated info just keeps being perpetuated. 

A vivarium goes through a nitrogen cycle like an aquarium and also reaches a kind of biological equilibrium that artificial carpet/paper towel style tanks never reach because they are repeatedly cleaned before they are allowed to find a balance, but in extended periods between cleanings can manifest bacterial blooms, and especially when wet can be a breeding ground for all kinds of nastiness...but in a true vivarium, nature tends to keep that stuff in check unless you seal it up and leave it at 95%+ humidity day after day. 

If the viv is to dry for your plants, well the gecko might tolerate that but chances are you have quite a bit of wiggle room in that case to pump up the moisture a bit and keep your plants alive while also keeping your gecko healthy. 

Also as far as drying out goes...you need the substrate to always be a bit moist...what *you don't want is water droplets, pools of water everywhere* *all day long*...I think that is also what they may mean by "drying out"... that isn't good even for dart frog vivs. A lot of people in our hobby over mist, and don't provide enough ventilation, they treat their frogs like they're some kind of terrestrial fish...I'd say if anything you're doing the opposite, and need to find the balance. These care sheets saying allow substrate to dry are probably talking about artificial paper towel/carpet tanks, some even have such substrates suggested in them...so the translation for vivariums is don't keep the substrate saturated and especially let water drops/puddles on the surface of your substrate/plants evaporate away. Basically you don't want it always looking like it just rained on everything.

So to summarize:
I still think your tank is to dry...You've got a ways to go before you risk your geckos respiratory health from a saturated tank, so make the top partially covered but leave some ventilation(maybe add a fan but on a timer cuz u don't want it running all the time), allow your substrate to hold some moisture but don't saturate it to the point water droplets are everywhere all day...within a couple hours most of the drops/puddles should be gone even in a dart frog tank. Do that and you should have a better viv for your plants and your gecko, with no health risk IMO.

I'd also do a 2 bulb fixture with 2 15-25 watt 6500k cfls in there instead of 1 bulb if that is what you are running now. You'll get better light coverage and penetration down to the tank floor, and plants won't be able to block light to other plants so much.

*Disclaimer* 
While I've kept quite a few gecko species some with at least similar care to rhacodactylus species, I've never actually kept any rhacodactylus so if any experienced rhac keepers wanna chime in and tell me I'm an idiot, then by all means feel free.


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks for the extended post. I'll start misting more, and think about covering up a portion of the screen top. Hopefully, that will help. 

It seems to be the consensus that the small pots shouldn't be a problem. Since they are already a fairly permanent part of the tank, that makes me happy .

I currently only have a single bulb fixture. I had originally planned to fit a 13w jungle dawn bulb, which I believe is quite a bit brighter than the CFL I am using, but due to money constraints the LED's will have to wait.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Raptor22 said:


> Thanks for the extended post. I'll start misting more, and think about covering up a portion of the screen top. Hopefully, that will help.
> 
> It seems to be the consensus that the small pots shouldn't be a problem. Since they are already a fairly permanent part of the tank, that makes me happy .
> 
> I currently only have a single bulb fixture. I had originally planned to fit a 13w jungle dawn bulb, which I believe is quite a bit brighter than the CFL I am using, but due to money constraints the LED's will have to wait.


You may find that even if the LED JD bulb matches the intensity of the 23w CFL that it causes an increased spot light effect, that at the very least may look unappealing and may not get enough light to the edges of the tank. That is why I'd go with a 2 bulb fixture...even if you use JD LED bulbs.


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

Good to know. I was under the impression that one 13 W bulb was roughly equivalent to 30w of CFL lighting. Supposedly, it has a similar lumen output to a 26w CFL, but wastes less light.

We have a 60-120w adjustable t5 grow light lying in storage somewhere, so I may go fishing through old boxes in the hopes of finding it for use this winter.

I definitely want to convert to LED's by the summer; my house gets rather hot, so I'd like to keep the heat down. If one Jungle Dawn bulb isn't enough it may be brighter and less expensive to go with a DIY system.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I didn't see any Wandering Jew...and the Pothos looks pretty bad. How well developed were the roots on the plants...The Pothos, you said, were cuttings...and as such require more diligence to get started. By cutting each leaf by half, and eliminating the growth tip...and burying stem nodes...it is possible to make the plant develop roots in the viv itself...It would be easier to dig out what you have and put in the appropriate sized plant in its own "soil"...when you cut the stems back on these plants, it forces the roots to grown faster than the green part you see...and eventually the green part will show new growth. Pay close attention that the "cuttings/starts" are evenly watered.


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## Toxic (Jul 9, 2012)

The fern looks like Asparagus setaceus


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

The wandering Jew can be found near the base of the broms, but each plant is only 6" long with a few leaves at most, so it may be hard to make out on the photo. This particular plant has all-green leaves instead of the common purple leaves.

Both the pothos and the wandering jew were originally cut back to a few leaves, and kept in a glass of water on my windowsill until they each had at least an inch of roots, with several nodes. Then, they were planted into small pots and left near a window (for 4-6 weeks) until the viv was ready, and got planted in the background.

Should I have tried to root the cuttings in the viv instead?


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

I just covered ~50% of the screen top to hold in humidity. I'm hoping I'll see a difference in a few days.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Plants that are started in water develop "water roots"...they can be really difficult to repot into a soil-like environment...really difficult. You are better off to take cuttings, take off leaves from the stem below what will be your soil line, dip into a rooting hormone if you can ...take a pencil or something, make a hole in your soil, insert the cutting and firm the soil around the cutting. cut half of each leaf to reduce the energy needed for the cutting to sustain itself...you are forcing the growth to make new leaves...when you cut back top growth, the roots will prosper. Try using a growout tank with the substrate you will eventually be using...get the cuttings, sterilized purchased plants, whatever...used to the substrate material and the moist conditions they will be living in. The water roots were probably what compromised the cuttings/plants


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

Cool. I'll take some more cuttings next time I am at my in-law's, and replace these plants with fresh clippings.


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

Update:

I went to Microcosm today. I picked up some oak leaf ficus and "lipstick vine" gesneriads to replace the background plants in the viv, and got an incredible deal on a subadult male Sara.... So I have an inhabitant. I'm stoked. The new plants and animal are perfect.

As it turns out, the roots on the cuttings were not healthy at all when I pulled them. Suspect the leaves that were left on the plants were just using their last reserves.


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