# Green Leucs



## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

I ve heard from several reliable sources of green leucs actually existing. Not just the green leg variety. Does anyone have a picture of these?


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)




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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Is pale yellow pigment over the top of black actually green...or just pale yellow pigment over the top of black?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Well I'll be a monkey's Uncle...

So what is the status on these being a true morph? locale info available?

Shawn

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## brooklyndartfrogs (Nov 19, 2005)

Kinda looks like a cross between an auratus and a leuc!
Andy


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

brooklyndartfrogs said:


> Kinda looks like a cross between an auratus and a leuc!
> Andy


thats what i thought when i first saw them......so i def. agree with you there........


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

just some pictures i found when i first heard about the "green leucs" i dont know if its a true morph or not but i still think they look pretty cool, havent seen much or any other photos of these guys other then these, would be nice to know if they were real or not and if we could get them in!


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

...and next month they'll find that 'elusive' red leuc and we'll all be proven wrong lol 

I'm interested to see how this pans out.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

MeiKVR6 said:


> ...and next month they'll find that 'elusive' red leuc and we'll all be proven wrong lol
> 
> I'm interested to see how this pans out.


Ask and you shall receive 










Courtesy of Melas


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

MeiKVR6 said:


> ...and next month they'll find that 'elusive' red leuc and we'll all be proven wrong lol
> 
> I'm interested to see how this pans out.


Hey I'm a bit of an airhead and remember falling for this pic:


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

. . . And I remember getting negative rep for posting in the red leuc thread, after stating that I didn't believe they existed at all, at least not in the US hobby. The comment: "Be supportive to new froggers" 

I've heard from a couple reliable sources that the 'green' leucs do exist in the wild. They are more of a yellowish green then the pics would lead you to believe, and have more black than the nominat leucs in the hobby.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Those pics of the green leucs really don't look green to me anyways. I'm kinda in Ron's corner on them. More of a pale yellow with a black backing. Who knows what's really out there though.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Love the red ones now, where can I find them?
Photoshop?
-Beth


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

zBrinks said:


> . . . And I remember getting negative rep for posting in the red leuc thread, after stating that I didn't believe they existed at all, at least not in the US hobby. The comment: "Be supportive to new froggers"


I just gave you negative rep for complaining about rep . . . 

Yeah that was a fun thread - too bad people took it the wrong way. I've always loved a good photoshop hoax!

As far as the red leucs . . . the COULD exist . . . just not in the hobby right now . . . we can only hope they are out there!


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## sbye (Nov 10, 2009)

I guess I could believe the green leucs because if you look closely some of the standard leucs i have seen have a little bit of a green tint sometimes. Just normally in very small spots that you wouldn't really notice unless you look really close. So I guess it's possible without being a hybrid.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

cheezus_2007 said:


> thats what i thought when i first saw them......so i def. agree with you there........


i have seen auratus and leuc crosses and they don't really look like that, so those are def leucs.


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

The first pic looks quite a bit greener than the last two. Mind you that the other two are through glass. I also think they look alot paler than they really are, cause of the poor lighting. But thats evidence enough for me that they do exist.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Black Jungle's website lists "Dendrobates leucomelas 'Green'" as one of the frogs they are working with. 

Not sure how antiquated that list is though...


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

remains a mystery  hehe....


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Julio said:


> i have seen auratus and leuc crosses and they don't really look like that, so those are def leucs.


I've seen auratus/leuc crosses and that's exactly what they looked like... Thinner bands, washed out color. I'd bet those were crosses.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

interesting, i guess they throw out a vaiety of different patterns the ones i saw were totally different.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

The auratus/leuc cross that i saw, which was probably the same as the ones Julio saw didn't look a thing like the pictures in the thread...However that was only one sample and i'm sure that different auratus/leucs combos could produce differnt looking offspring, just look at the variable differneces in true species....

I wouldn't be suprised one bit of those frogs are actually crosses

Also i'm not sure but i think that Black Jungle list may be referring to the Green Foot leucs???


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Amphibians lists green leucs for sale - one pic is obviously an auratus, but the smaller one shows a leuc with whitish/yellow-green coloring.

While we're on the topic, what are they called "leucomelas" - named by a color blind naturalist?


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

shockingelk said:


> Amphibians lists green leucs for sale - one pic is obviously an auratus, but the smaller one shows a leuc with whitish/yellow-green coloring.
> 
> While we're on the topic, what are they called "leucomelas" - named by a color blind naturalist?


That looks like a leuc fed the wrong/no supplements and recovered with a pale yellow pattern. That rhacophorus reinwardtii is awesome though!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

shockingelk said:


> While we're on the topic, what are they called "leucomelas" - named by a color blind naturalist?


I think this naming was the same as many other anurans.. from a preserved specimen or specimens. Most anurans (and dendrobatids do as well) lose thier pigmentation when preserved for study. 

Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

A couple of years ago a bunch of green Leuc pictures showed from an exporter in SA to a friend of mine, they sure looked legit and like green Leucs. They looked like they would at an export facility, a little bit beat up WC frogs, the guy never exported any frogs but my vote would be that they do exist, a green morph found in a specific locale. If a high enough $ amount was put on them, likely they would show up.


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## Philman (May 14, 2009)

Here in Germany some of the D.leucomelas 'green' are called 'Colombia' and some are labled as 'Cerro Autana', which is a location in Venezuela, close to the Colombian border.
The color is actually a pale yellow but the feet are green. 
I talked to someone who got these and he told me that they do not breed very good. On the other hand, there was an article in a German magazine about these and it says that they are simmilar to the standart leucs.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> A couple of years ago a bunch of green Leuc pictures showed from an exporter in SA to a friend of mine, they sure looked legit and like green Leucs. They looked like they would at an export facility, a little bit beat up WC frogs, the guy never exported any frogs but my vote would be that they do exist, a green morph found in a specific locale. If a high enough $ amount was put on them, likely they would show up.


well, we have green footed leucs, so i am sure there is a green morph out there as well.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Julio said:


> well, we have green footed leucs, so i am sure there is a green morph out there as well.


I believe, but would have to verify, that the "green foots" (again, pale yellow pigment over black still doesn't make green, IMO) are the product of selectively line bred frogs from a few original founders that had that variation.


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

If I remember correctly, the pics posted earlier in this thread where actually pictures of imported frogs. That would make deliberate crosses unlikely. Also these greenish frogs have a similar pattern to the 'green foot/Cerro Autana' leucomelas, which could mean they are found close to eachother. The non-variable but very different pattern as seen on the 'green foot' leuco's would also make selective breeding of 'standard' leucs an unlikely source.
I think both the 'green' and 'green foot' are the real deal


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## brooklyndartfrogs (Nov 19, 2005)

Shockfrog said:


> If I remember correctly, the pics posted earlier in this thread where actually pictures of imported frogs. That would make deliberate crosses unlikely. Also these greenish frogs have a similar pattern to the 'green foot/Cerro Autana' leucomelas, which could mean they are found close to each other. The non-variable but very different pattern as seen on the 'green foot' leuco's would also make selective breeding of 'standard' leucs an unlikely source.
> I think both the 'green' and 'green foot' are the real deal


Are you implying that there's no way they could be hybrids?
Because if I remember correctly there has been cross bred frogs that were pawned off as real morphs ie. amotopo.
Until there is site data the possibility is there!
Andy


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Shockfrog said:


> The non-variable but very different pattern as seen on the 'green foot' leuco's would also make selective breeding of 'standard' leucs an unlikely source.


It depends on what we mean by "standard" leucomelas. I think the hobby tends to assume all populations of wild frogs are pretty uniform in their physical appearance, which can be an erroneous assumption that can lead to misguided (although well-intentioned) captive management.

I find it interesting that a breeder in the states (formerly Vanishing Jewels) acquired three groups of WC leucomelas from Venezuela, and according to them, these frogs produced just about every variation possible that we know about: fine spot, Chocolate, green legs/feet/left front toe, etc. Of course once these variations got out into the hobby, people began grouping and breeding together only those animals with similar characteristics...even though they all came from the same founding group.


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## brooklyndartfrogs (Nov 19, 2005)

skylsdale said:


> It depends on what we mean by "standard" leucomelas. I think the hobby tends to assume all populations of wild frogs are pretty uniform in their physical appearance, which can be an erroneous assumption that can lead to misguided (although well-intentioned) captive management.
> 
> I find it interesting that a breeder in the states (formerly Vanishing Jewels) acquired three groups of WC leucomelas from Venezuela, and according to them, these frogs produced just about every variation possible that we know about: fine spot, Chocolate, green legs/feet/left front toe, etc. Of course once these variations got out into the hobby, people began grouping and breeding together only those animals with similar characteristics...even though they all came from the same founding group.


Ron,
That's called line breeding and to me that's almost as bad as hybrids!
Andy


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

brooklyndartfrogs said:


> Are you implying that there's no way they could be hybrids?
> Because if I remember correctly there has been cross bred frogs that were pawned off as real morphs ie. amotopo.
> Until there is site data the possibility is there!
> Andy


No I'm not. I wrote it is unlikely, maybe I should have written less likely .

Sure many crosses between morphs have made it onto the market. Still I have never heard of any 'leucoratus' or 'auromelas' that was actually fertile and capable of reproduction.

@skyIsdale: I'm not sure what to think about stories like that, but it's certainly interesting if those frogs where all WC from the same location. Which I cannot check, and I bet you cannot guarantee either. What I do know are the locations where 'standards' only and 'netted' only occur. I guess that would make at least those morphs the real deal .

...I guess I just needed to say that I don't think all morphs are the result of line breeding. Some might be though, and some definitly are (chocolate leucs).


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Shockfrog said:


> @skyIsdale: I'm not sure what to think about stories like that, but it's certainly interesting if those frogs where all WC from the same location. Which I cannot check, and I bet you cannot guarantee either. What I do know are the locations where 'standards' only and 'netted' only occur. I guess that would make at least those morphs the real deal .
> 
> ...I guess I just needed to say that I don't think all morphs are the result of line breeding. Some might be though, and some definitly are (chocolate leucs).


There has been some recent research done that seems to point to what Ron is saying to be the case. That's not saying that there may be locales where these morphs do occur, but it seems that many in the hobby did originate with a particular group of founding frogs. Chocolates being one of the lines from this group.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Shockfrog said:


> @skyIsdale: I'm not sure what to think about stories like that, but it's certainly interesting if those frogs where all WC from the same location. Which I cannot check, and I bet you cannot guarantee either. What I do know are the locations where 'standards' only and 'netted' only occur. I guess that would make at least those morphs the real deal.
> 
> ...I guess I just needed to say that I don't think all morphs are the result of line breeding. Some might be though, and some definitly are (chocolate leucs).


I agree, and I hope no one is thinking I'm saying that all morphs are the result of line breeding. 

And I agree that there are populations out there that probably look pretty uniformly like what we consider to be a "standard" leucomelas...but we do need to be open to the understanding that there is natural variation in many of these populations, and what we consider the rule most often likely is not (for instance, the "standard" form of imitator in the hobby is actually not the most dominant form in the wild...it was simply the first form introduced to the captive hobby, so we think of it as the standard of all other imitator).


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

jubjub47 said:


> There has been some recent research done that seems to point to what Ron is saying to be the case.


Hmm.. sounds interesting. Any publications I can read?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Shockfrog said:


> Hmm.. sounds interesting. Any publications I can read?


Not that I know of. I just had a conversation with someone who was heavily researching them. They are a member here on the boards and I believe he was researching for an ASN tmp. I can't remember his forum name, but maybe he'll see this and chime in.


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

jubjub47 said:


> Not that I know of. I just had a conversation with someone who was heavily researching them. They are a member here on the boards and I believe he was researching for an ASN tmp. I can't remember his forum name, but maybe he'll see this and chime in.


That would be me! Hello!

Yes I was researching last year on a leucomelas TMG and I posted my findings on the ASN boards located in treewalkers.org. I tracked down "Formerly Vanishing Jewels" and spoke to her for at least 2 hours regarding chocolate leucs. it turns out that she indeed had three groups she got WC and they threw all the different phenoms. I was then given the name of the breeder that Black Jungle got the chocolates I bought (forgot his name which is really sad because I want to find him again) and he confirmed (cause he has those WC frogs and their F1's now) which he uses to breed. We spoke about Green foot/leg, chocolate, fine spot, etc. but we never did talk about "green Leucs" my best guess is that the "green leuc" is probably another phenom thrown on ocassion from regular leucs and are then "line breed" to sell into the hobby. The only "true" alternate morph of Leucomelas are Bandeds (guyana).

All this being said my goal is to breed the chocolates I have (females) back to standard leucs to restore balance from all the line breeding being done, but I am having no luck finding any males!! so if anyone has any Male Leucs available please contact me. I have a very young group of standards that i am hoping will contain a male, but it will be a while for them!

I hope this helps if you have any other questions please feel free to ask.

Thanks


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Malaki33 said:


> I was then given the name of the breeder that Black Jungle got the chocolates I bought (forgot his name which is really sad because I want to find him again)...


Check the TMP forum on the TWI member forums...I believe your info is archived in a thread on there with his name.


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

These frogs are from two different locales in Venezuela. I'm sure these can be labelled as seperate morphs:

2 locaties gevonden van dendrobates leucomelas - Gifkikkerportaal - Forum - Soorten - Dendrobates

Ofcourse I can imagine there must be or must have been intermediate locales which could produce a variety of phenotypes.


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