# San Diego Zoo Dart Frog Exhibits



## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

I recently went to the San Diego Zoo and was looking at their dart frog exhibits. I thought that they were good but many of you have way better vivs. I was also somewhat disapointed that they still have the sign mislabled for their azureus. It is still labled dendrobates azureus not dendrobates tinctorious. Maybe I'm over reacting but I guess I expect more from one of the worlds best zoos and at the very least want accurate up to date information. Anyone else have an opinion on this?


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## laylow (Apr 6, 2009)

I went there last summer. I really enjoyed the zoo but I've found that I shouldn't expect to be impressed with zoo and other institutes frogs. 

Shaw


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

My mom got me and my gf memberships to the SD Zoo. We went in January.

While I do agree that their vivs are nothing compared to what I see on this site I was in fact happy to see they were as bad as some of the 'horror story exhibits' that people have shared their experiences of.

It seems once every couple weeks there is a post about some zoo or museum that has way too many frogs of different species crammed into one viv.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

i feel like people are too harsh about things like this. there is probably just one or two herpetologists that handle all of the amphibian and reptile exhibits at that zoo. i don't think we should expect them to know as much as someone who researches dart frogs specifically every single day. i've been to that zoo and really appreciated seeing the frogs getting decent husbandry. they weren't "BAD". in fact, my first visit there is what inspired me to get in to this hobby in the first place.

-brett


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

varanoid said:


> I recently went to the San Diego Zoo and was looking at their dart frog exhibits. I thought that they were good but many of you have way better vivs.


If I were to add few hundred more animals to the mix...dozens of new genera and species from all over the world that require specific enclosures, diets, veterinary care...and then depend on visitors to the collection to help pay for it all (and those folks only really want to see the big animals like elephants and bears and maybe a lion, so most of the money goes back into the "charasmatic megafauna" enclosures and programs to keep the folks coming back to see the big animals)...my frog tanks would probably look similar. Or worse.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Another thing that can affect viability in zoos, but not so much as commercialism, is the transport of animals to the zoo. It's not the zoos issues so much as it is getting the animal transported there safely and getting them to adapt to its new conditions without just keeling over...so it's of a greater incentive for the zoo to try multispecies tanks or what-have-you just in the hopes that at least one of the animals will survive more than 6 months after all the rigamarole they're put through. There's also, as Ron mentioned, the incentive to have the tanks look 'cool' since they compete for funds with the bigger animals, who attract more attention (and therefore zoo money). It's like having your Photography Club compete for funds with the Football team at school. 
They do the best with what they have to work with, even if it seems unwise to us at times. 

You have to put yourself in their shoes.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

I have noticed that Aquariums tend to have nicer frog exhibits than the zoo. One of the best dart frog enclosures that I have seen is at the Atlanta Aquarium. It is a mixed tank of Leucs, Azureus, Auratus and a Milk Frog, but the tank itself is quite large (6'x6'x8') and designed well. 

The SD zoo tanks are not bad at all. They are just plain. Frogs do not need a beautiful tank in order to be healthy. I know people who have had pairs for years breed successfully using only fake plants, a water bowl, and basic substrate. 

Also most zoos have a herpetologist on staff who is much better than your average hobbyist at providing proper care with access to feeders, supplements and medications.


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## dart666 (Sep 18, 2010)

Would you want to live in a crappy fake everything bubble, and I don't by that at all! I did reef tanks for well over 8 years and the tanks with fake rock and coral was horrible for the fish because of the beneficial bacteria in the rock work and I know this is different but in many ways is the same in regards to the bugs that live in and out of the water that help break down all the detritus and waste from old food and frog poop. Sorry just don't buy your argument not to cause any drama


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I was at the SD zoo over the summer. It was an amazing zoo! But the dart frog exhibits were a little disappointing after how good everything else was. Now if you want to see a good set up go to the Tulsa zoo!  lol. It's a large open area with tons of frogs and plants. The only bad side to having an open area is lots of rotten kids steal some...


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

OT a little but I find it odd that SD is concidered one of the best zoos in the world. I blew off Disney land when I was 10 to go there and was severely dissapointed. To date I still think Omaha henry doorly zoo is the best I have ever been to. Especially their indoor rainforest.

Lied Jungle | Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo | Visit Omaha | Entertainment Omaha

went there once on Christmas eve, was the only people in there. Got to pet a tucan and a lemur just pulled the wires apart on its cage and came out to greet us. I didn't have the balls to try and pet it though. Last thing I wanted was for it to freak out on me.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

D3monic said:


> OT a little but I find it odd that SD is concidered one of the best zoos in the world. I blew off Disney land when I was 10 to go there and was severely dissapointed. To date I still think Omaha henry doorly zoo is the best I have ever been to. Especially their indoor rainforest.
> 
> Lied Jungle | Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo | Visit Omaha | Entertainment Omaha
> 
> went there once on Christmas eve, was the only people in there. Got to pet a tucan and a lemur just pulled the wires apart on its cage and came out to greet us. I didn't have the balls to try and pet it though. Last thing I wanted was for it to freak out on me.


That's kind of how the Tulsa zoo is. We have an indoor rainforest to. It's really nice. You should of pet the lemur! I got to hold a few babies before, their so cute!


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## dart666 (Sep 18, 2010)

D3monic said:


> OT a little but I find it odd that SD is concidered one of the best zoos in the world. I blew off Disney land when I was 10 to go there and was severely dissapointed. To date I still think Omaha henry doorly zoo is the best I have ever been to. Especially their indoor rainforest.
> 
> Lied Jungle | Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo | Visit Omaha | Entertainment Omaha
> 
> went there once on Christmas eve, was the only people in there. Got to pet a tucan and a lemur just pulled the wires apart on its cage and came out to greet us. I didn't have the balls to try and pet it though. Last thing I wanted was for it to freak out on me.


WHAT!! it said they had pygmy hippos?? I want one! hahaha how small were they?


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

D3monic said:


> OT a little but I find it odd that SD is concidered one of the best zoos in the world. I blew off Disney land when I was 10 to go there and was severely dissapointed. To date I still think Omaha henry doorly zoo is the best I have ever been to. Especially their indoor rainforest.
> 
> Lied Jungle | Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo | Visit Omaha | Entertainment Omaha
> 
> went there once on Christmas eve, was the only people in there. Got to pet a tucan and a lemur just pulled the wires apart on its cage and came out to greet us. I didn't have the balls to try and pet it though. Last thing I wanted was for it to freak out on me.


And how old are you now?

Living in SD I have seen a huge transformation in the SD zoo since I was a kid.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

this was twenty years ago, I havent been back there since. I do go back to Omaha zoo when ever I get the chance though. 

The best zoo we have here in Chicagoland is the Brookfield but thats a huge dissapointment as well. Wouldnt mind checking out the Tulsa zoo next time I go down that way for something.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

dart666 said:


> Would you want to live in a crappy fake everything bubble, and I don't by that at all! I did reef tanks for well over 8 years and the tanks with fake rock and coral was horrible for the fish because of the beneficial bacteria in the rock work and I know this is different but in many ways is the same in regards to the bugs that live in and out of the water that help break down all the detritus and waste from old food and frog poop. Sorry just don't buy your argument not to cause any drama


The bugs still break down the detritus from the organics, and frog poop. They do not need a visually nice tank in order to do this. As long as the frogs are receiving proper care and supplementation, and are not stressed then they will do just fine. I personally go out of my way to plant a visually beautiful tank that suits the frogs, but the aesthetics are for my pleasure. The fact that the frogs are in a glass enclosure means it is fake.

Most people when they see an institutions tank freak out for a couple reasons, mainly because it is mixed or not well planted. What they do not look for are the key factors. 

For example how many of the frogs at the SD zoo look skinny or sick?

They also seem to miss that there are fans in the tanks providing proper air circulation. Thats more important to a frogs health than an extra plant. How many people on this board can say that they provide this for their frogs. Not to mention they have a trained herpetologist (Todd Schmidt) as well as trained veterinarians in the reptile house on hand to treat the frogs if they are sick or malnourished. 

Most of the institutions breed frogs quite regularly, which usually are culled do to legal reasons such as Atelopus. In fact a lot of the frogs you see in the hobby today were illegally acquired through zoos and aquariums. Azureus are one example of a frog that was leaked from the Baltimore Aquarium.

I will admit there are some horror tanks out there, but most of them are not as bad as we make them out to be.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

D3monic said:


> this was twenty years ago, I havent been back there since. I do go back to Omaha zoo when ever I get the chance though.
> 
> The best zoo we have here in Chicagoland is the Brookfield but thats a huge dissapointment as well. Wouldnt mind checking out the Tulsa zoo next time I go down that way for something.


Definitely take a look at the Tulsa zoo if you get a chance. I've gotten to know some of the keepers that work with herps pretty good, I volunteer there a lot. Right now though the darts aren't out on exhibit, they are having some breeding difficulty right now, not sure when they will be back out.


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## dart666 (Sep 18, 2010)

flapjax3000 said:


> The bugs still break down the detritus from the organics, and frog poop. They do not need a visually nice tank in order to do this. As long as the frogs are receiving proper care and supplementation, and are not stressed then they will do just fine. I personally go out of my way to plant a visually beautiful tank that suits the frogs, but the aesthetics are for my pleasure. The fact that the frogs are in a glass enclosure means it is fake.
> 
> Most people when they see an institutions tank freak out for a couple reasons, mainly because it is mixed or not well planted. What they do not look for are the key factors.
> 
> ...


I hear you.. I guess its just more of a give and take for me, I take the frog so I need to give it at least the best home I can provide for it. But I do understand that they can live in a stripped down tank it just makes me ill that thats all a zoo of all places would give there animals!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dart666 said:


> I hear you.. I guess its just more of a give and take for me, I take the frog so I need to give it at least the best home I can provide for it. But I do understand that they can live in a stripped down tank it just makes me ill that thats all a zoo of all places would give there animals!


Okay I'm going to work my way backwards through this thread.... 

With respect to the "stripped down tank comment"... in my opinion I often see the opposite issue with the heavily planted encloures with little leaf litter, or open space in which the frogs can readily move around without having to climb through the plants.. this is not the prime habitat for leaflitter dwelling frogs...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flapjax3000 said:


> In fact a lot of the frogs you see in the hobby today were illegally acquired through zoos and aquariums. Azureus are one example of a frog that was leaked from the Baltimore Aquarium.


While it is possible that some azureus were illegally leaked.. there were legal transfers of frogs to select members of the public which is why some of the older breeders have a line that can be tracked back to NAIB..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dart666 said:


> Would you want to live in a crappy fake everything bubble, and I don't by that at all! I did reef tanks for well over 8 years and the tanks with fake rock and coral was horrible for the fish because of the beneficial bacteria in the rock work and I know this is different but in many ways is the same in regards to the bugs that live in and out of the water that help break down all the detritus and waste from old food and frog poop. Sorry just don't buy your argument not to cause any drama


If I understand you correctly then you have a misunderstanding of how efficient aerobit soil like substrates can process waste materials.. I strongly suggest the appropriate sections in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium (as this compares them to aquatic systems) and the related bibliography in that book. 

With respect to the reef comment.. you are comparing the slower denitrification processes within the rock versus the much faster nitrification processes on the surface of the rock.. this proccess also occurs in systems with live rock.. in a planted enclosure the microbes in the aerobic sections of the substrate (and the plants) rapidly take up and stabilize the nitrogen so this is a different process... (and I did reefs for almost 15 years (and started back when skimmers were all airstone driven..) 

Ed


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## dart666 (Sep 18, 2010)

Ed said:


> Okay I'm going to work my way backwards through this thread....
> 
> With respect to the "stripped down tank comment"... in my opinion I often see the opposite issue with the heavily planted encloures with little leaf litter, or open space in which the frogs can readily move around without having to climb through the plants.. this is not the prime habitat for leaflitter dwelling frogs...


Well of course this would be Specific to each frog by no means did I mean every tank had to be packed to the gills with plants!


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Ed said:


> While it is possible that some azureus were illegally leaked.. there were legal transfers of frogs to select members of the public which is why some of the older breeders have a line that can be tracked back to NAIB..


Sorry I had my info mixed up on this one. Did these legal transfers allow for the frogs to be bred and distributed? I know sometimes frogs are giving to people under strict guidelines where they are not allowed to redistribute.


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## dart666 (Sep 18, 2010)

Ed said:


> If I understand you correctly then you have a misunderstanding of how efficient aerobit soil like substrates can process waste materials.. I strongly suggest the appropriate sections in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium (as this compares them to aquatic systems) and the related bibliography in that book.
> 
> With respect to the reef comment.. you are comparing the slower denitrification processes within the rock versus the much faster nitrification processes on the surface of the rock.. this proccess also occurs in systems with live rock.. in a planted enclosure the microbes in the aerobic sections of the substrate (and the plants) rapidly take up and stabilize the nitrogen so this is a different process... (and I did reefs for almost 15 years (and started back when skimmers were all airstone driven..)
> 
> Ed






Well I'm sorry to tell you that's a matter not only of opinion but also volume of rock! My 220 had over 350 pounds of live rock between the tank and sump and even without my bubble king on as long as I did proper water changes the amount of anaerobic bacteria along with copepods and amphipods took care of my waste! 
but that's way off topic! I fully agree with a bed of soil can work wonders if treated right but I thought that he was talking about just a glass tank with fake plants and a bowl of water? mabey I'm reading that wrong and if so I'm sorry.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

dart666 said:


> Well of course this would be Specific to each frog by no means did I mean every tank had to be packed to the gills with plants!



You must be talking about the tanks with no leaf litter, a bed of coco earth, the fake rock water bowl and one stringy looking plant in the corner. Those bother me as well. Similar to what you see in that sorry little section at Petsmart.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> Another thing that can affect viability in zoos, but not so much as commercialism, is the transport of animals to the zoo. It's not the zoos issues so much as it is getting the animal transported there safely and getting them to adapt to its new conditions without just keeling over...so it's of a greater incentive for the zoo to try multispecies tanks or what-have-you just in the hopes that at least one of the animals will survive more than 6 months after all the rigamarole they're put through. There's also, as Ron mentioned, the incentive to have the tanks look 'cool' since they compete for funds with the bigger animals, who attract more attention (and therefore zoo money). It's like having your Photography Club compete for funds with the Football team at school.
> They do the best with what they have to work with, even if it seems unwise to us at times.
> 
> You have to put yourself in their shoes .


I'm not sure where you get your information on how zoos handle animals.. but 
1) Zoos transport frogs the same way we do.. if close someone hand carries them.. if not close they are shipped just like the hobby does.... I've done when I was employed and a lot of my friends and colleges have done it (including things like clouded leopards..).. 

2) Zoos put thier animals through a quarantine period during which the animals are housed in an area away from everything which allows them to acclimate.. 

3) multispecies are not tried as a result of animal loss and poor husbandry they are typically an example of an sympatric species although some institutions do them as examples of covergent evolution. 

when working for a Zoo, one has to work within a budget. If you need something it has to be asked for (usually a form filled out), sent to the curator for approval, from there it is sent to purchasing for approval and then sent back to the curator who orders it. The budget (depending on the institution) has to cover everything from enclosure repair and construction, routine supplies, (possibly) food, lights, heaters, substrates, and so forth.. all have to be kept within budget.. so extras can be luxuries when working on enclosures.. (and zookeepers get good at adapting things..)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flapjax3000 said:


> Sorry I had my info mixed up on this one. Did these legal transfers allow for the frogs to be bred and distributed? I know sometimes frogs are giving to people under strict guidelines where they are not allowed to redistribute.


Yep.. that was back in the day before those restrictions ended up in place on a lot of species (in part you can thank the epidobatine debacle for some of that.. some you can blame on animal rights groups..) 

Ed


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

dart666 said:


> I fully agree with a bed of soil can work wonders if treated right but I thought that he was talking about just a glass tank with fake plants and a bowl of water? mabey I'm reading that wrong and if so I'm sorry.


I meant that I have seen frogs do quite well and live a long time in bare tanks that are quite ugly. And yes they do a have plastic plants, one coco hut and a bowl of water. Its not my personal choice, but its not a disproven method with certain species of frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

varanoid said:


> I was also somewhat disapointed that they still have the sign mislabled for their azureus. It is still labled dendrobates azureus not dendrobates tinctorious. Maybe I'm over reacting but I guess ?


Signage can take a long time to get done depending on the inhouse process and whether or not it is outsourced at all and where the budget for the graphic stands... 

As an extreme example one institution had the education department write the signage.. this was then sent to the curator for checking, then it was sent to the head curator for approval and then it was sent to the graphic department... where it was prioritized based on what else needed to be done (and the graphics department also handled promotional advertising and signage...) 

Ed


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

D3monic said:


> this was twenty years ago, I havent been back there since. I do go back to Omaha zoo when ever I get the chance though.
> 
> The best zoo we have here in Chicagoland is the Brookfield but thats a huge dissapointment as well. Wouldnt mind checking out the Tulsa zoo next time I go down that way for something.



Yeah you cannot judge the SD zoo on what you saw 20 years ago. Most of TE exhibits have been replaced since then. Even in the last 5-10 years there have been lots of changes.


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## sarahsceneil (Aug 22, 2010)

the other zoo in chicago, lincoln park zoo, is also mildly dissapointing. they have one viv containing 10(!!!) cobalts. poor guys. i keep saying i want to tell them it would be healthier, and more beneficial to teaching people if they had several smaller tanks showing the different morphs of tincs. they have a pygmy hippo too, its not that small...


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure where you get your information on how zoos handle animals.. but
> 1) Zoos transport frogs the same way we do.. if close someone hand carries them.. if not close they are shipped just like the hobby does.... I've done when I was employed and a lot of my friends and colleges have done it (including things like clouded leopards..)..
> 
> 2) Zoos put thier animals through a quarantine period during which the animals are housed in an area away from everything which allows them to acclimate..
> ...


This is a reflection based on my observations and conversations with zookeepers from some zoos I have visited, they may or may not reflect the general philosophy of zoos all around, least of all yours. Your version sounds much more hospitable to the animals and general public.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

Okay. I'm getting off my butt and volunteering at the zoo(or local aquarium in my case). You guys convinced me. No frog should have to compete with monkeys for resources. It's an impossible battle. Monkeys are too entertaining and they throw poo at you if you make them angry.


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## coxdre123 (Aug 3, 2009)

If anyone ever makes a trip to Disney Worlds Animal Kingdom they have some awesome vivs and they take very good care of their frogs. I went last year. I may have a couple of pics, I will see if I can post them later.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

btcope said:


> Okay. I'm getting off my butt and volunteering at the zoo(or local aquarium in my case). You guys convinced me. No frog should have to compete with monkeys for resources. It's an impossible battle. Monkeys are too entertaining and they throw poo at you if you make them angry.


Thanks. That was my motive, to get people to protest poo flinging... and to volunteer. While you're at it, see if your zoo would like donations of raw viv materials---call up the herpetologist and donate sphagnum moss, or just ask what they need. It will make a big difference for the animals.


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## Dendrobatid (May 6, 2010)

I've worked at quite a few zoos all over the country. Let me tell you that it is not as easy as keeping enclosures in your private collections. I'm not defending Zoological institutions in anyway, I'm just saying that you may not want to judge keepers unless you have been in their shoes. They are typically very overworked and very underpaid. Most keepers choose the profession because they have a genuine love for the animals they work with. It's not always easy to make exhibits look as naturalistic as possible. You need to take into account public visibility, ease of servicing, .......... Sometimes you make an exhibit look awesome and your boss (Who usually has less herp experience than you) tells you that you need to make it easier for the public to see the animals. If you get a chance check out the PDF exhibits at The National Aquarium in Baltimore, they have some nice exhibits. One last thing to keep in mind is that in most Zoo herp collections, for every individual you see on exhibit there could be a hundred off exhibit to care for. One of my most rewarding experiences was breeding Kihansi Spray Toads at the Bronx Zoo.


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