# Is PTFE (pipe thread) tape safe for a viv?



## cold-blooded12 (Aug 20, 2012)

I've got a bulkhead that the threads don't hold well, and I believe the o-ring is too hard. I've wrapped the threads in PTFE (pipe thread) tape to help and it's fixed the problem. 

However, is the tape safe for a viv? It's for my drainage bulkhead. I did a little research on teflon tape and saw that teflon can have some nasty stuff. Is there a difference between pipe tape, plumber's tape, teflon tape, and etc.? 

Any help would be appreciated.


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## Serafim (Mar 29, 2017)

I have used white Teflon tape on Fish tanks and koi ponds and never had issues but I will wait for a more experienced frogger to answer


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm lost on what you could have read about it that has you worried. There are very few conditions in which the material could be toxic, exposure to temperatures over 500 F, smoking tobacco that has it mixed into it, and a combination of conditions that also require 300 PSI. If you have any of those conditions, then I suspect that the frogs will have bigger issues than concern about the tape. 

some comments 

Ed


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## cold-blooded12 (Aug 20, 2012)

Thank you two for the input. 

@Serafim I'm glad to know someone has used it without problems. 

@Ed I went back and reread the article and I completely misunderstood it. It wasn't even talking about Teflon tape itself. It was talking about a company's environmental track record and this company so happened to produce plumber's tape. That's where I got confused. The frogs will definitely not be experiencing any of the conditions you mentioned. The article didn't mention anything about the few conditions to make it toxic. If I had saw those, I would have known for sure that it was fine.


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

I can't say that Teflon per se is toxic, but it is pervasive. I stopped using Teflon around my Family almost 20 years ago. Even then it was know that Teflon ends up in the bloodstream and does not leave. Ever.
A bit of trivia, about 15 years ago the first artificial blood was tested in Japan, it was based on Teflon with an iron O2 carrier. It didn't catch on, one reason was it was impossible to remove once used. Not that it seemed to exhibit toxic effects, it just never left the bloodstream.
If you use it, it will end up in the bloodstream of your animals. Again, I don't know if there would be any toxic effects in a single life span. But it will be there.
So I personally would not use it.
Here's an interesting article:
Teflon chemical found in U.S. newborns’ blood – The Denver Post
It is biologically mobile. Just so you know.


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## Serafim (Mar 29, 2017)

I believe The pipe thread tape and the teflon used for non stick pan is made without PFOA.


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## cold-blooded12 (Aug 20, 2012)

Ravage said:


> I can't say that Teflon per se is toxic, but it is pervasive. I stopped using Teflon around my Family almost 20 years ago. Even then it was know that Teflon ends up in the bloodstream and does not leave. Ever.
> A bit of trivia, about 15 years ago the first artificial blood was tested in Japan, it was based on Teflon with an iron O2 carrier. It didn't catch on, one reason was it was impossible to remove once used. Not that it seemed to exhibit toxic effects, it just never left the bloodstream.
> If you use it, it will end up in the bloodstream of your animals. Again, I don't know if there would be any toxic effects in a single life span. But it will be there.
> So I personally would not use it.
> ...


This echoes back to one of my questions; is there a difference between pipe thread tapes? According to Chemours Product Safety (https://www.chemours.com/Teflon/en_US/products/safety/what_is_it.html), Teflon isn't a chemical or product. It's made of PTFE and I didn't see any mention of PFOA. Even though it isn't mentioned, does that mean it's still present in the tape? Your thoughts?


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

cold-blooded12 said:


> This echoes back to one of my questions; is there a difference between pipe thread tapes? According to Chemours Product Safety (https://www.chemours.com/Teflon/en_US/products/safety/what_is_it.html), Teflon isn't a chemical or product. It's made of PTFE and I didn't see any mention of PFOA. Even though it isn't mentioned, does that mean it's still present in the tape? Your thoughts?


I did a little more reading as well. PTFE is just terribly non- reactive ( below 500° F). And then again, PFOA IS everywhere, and it can be toxic. Since we want the answer to the question of: "is it in the tape or not?"
http://www.fluorogistx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/FEP-Film-Products-SDS.pdf
I found the Data Safety Sheet (MDSS) and while it doesn't say it contains PFOA, it rather ominously states: "This product contains a chemical or chemicals known by the State of California to cause cancer"
It also says it contains no components that are required to be disclosed by OSHA. But that is a political distinction, not necessarily scientific or fact based. Look at the people who oversee OSHA (legislatures).
So even though it is used for me, in restaurants, peoples plumbing (not mine), etc. I wouldn't use it. The medical stuff, which would be the safest form of PTFE is not what is used for pipe thread tape. You'll see that if you look at the medical Data Safety Sheet. If you have an alternative, why not use it?


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## cold-blooded12 (Aug 20, 2012)

Interesting stuff and thanks for all of this. I've bought a new o-ring for the bulkhead and I'm gonna test it out. Hopefully it keeps the threads from slipping. If not, I'm going to scrap it and find a better bulkhead. 

What would you consider some alternatives? I've read about pipe glue and I could also silicone around the bulkhead. I'm trying not to though in case I ever needed to remove it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ravage said:


> I can't say that Teflon per se is toxic, but it is pervasive. I stopped using Teflon around my Family almost 20 years ago. Even then it was know that Teflon ends up in the bloodstream and does not leave. Ever.
> .


Okay first things first, in this case we are speaking of a specific formulation (Polytetrafluoroethylene) as opposed to the broader class of fluorinated organic compounds (FOCs), and perfluorinated (fully fluorinated) compounds
(PFCs). The only way that polytetrafluoroethylene is in the blood is if you inhale nanoparticles (only available during manufacturing or excessive heating of it) or have it injected. The toxicity of birds is due to sensitivity of some nanoparticles when the polytetrafluoroethylene is heated above 280 C/536 F. The particles at that point aren't toxic to people (as there is an insufficient amount) and are cleared with the mucous from the lungs. Polytetrafluoroethylene is used in a large number of medical applications because it is non-toxic and generally unreactive to a wide range of conditions. It is found in everything from dialysis machines to stents. 

It has even been studied as a food additive to increase bulk and mass while reducing caloric intake see SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research. 
Naftalovich, Rotem, Daniel Naftalovich, and Frank L. Greenway. "Polytetrafluoroethylene Ingestion as a Way to Increase Food Volume and Hence Satiety Without Increasing Calorie Content." Journal of diabetes science and technology 10.4 (2016): 971-976. 

So to argue that polytetrafluoroethylene is as toxic as you claim/manner as you claim isn't supported by more than 30 years of testing in various applications. 

Now other perflorinated organic compounds are pervasive in the environment and are more problematic but it isn't that you can't clear them, you can and do clear them via the urinary pathway, the problem is that they are so pervasive in the environment that you simply reaccumulate them as fast as you excrete them. 

A good breakdown of this whole issue can be found here http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1021/es022253t. 

The listing of potential carcinogen in California is because of the potential risk from the products it burning or heating excessively. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2016)

But IS the California warning because of the risk of burning? 
Or is it from the lower production standards of pipe tape vs. say, medical equipment? Which is basically what I said:


> The medical stuff, which would be the safest form of PTFE is not what is used for pipe thread tape. You'll see that if you look at the medical Data Safety Sheet.


The American Cancer Society is in agreement, and it's the PFOA from the manufacturing process that is the issue: https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/teflon-and-perfluorooctanoic-acid-pfoa.htmlIt's in my blood, it's in your blood, it's in the blood of Polar Bears. Even if it is harmless: Why bother?

So, I still would humbly suggest: If you can find an alternative, why not use it? Like a silicone O-ring for example. Or medical quality tape (not available at Home Depot).

And PS: We love you Ed, and appreciate your efforts to keep us honest.


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