# What frog for this custom hydroponic vivarium



## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

So I was told by someone this would be the best place to ask this question.

I have an aquaponic custom built display, the top is foam sealed with silicone and holds a tray containing media for growing out plants (currently mint since I find it loves the moisture). 

The substrate of the tray is a layering of perlite, coco coir, screen mesh, smooth river stones and moss at the very top. 

The square feature conceals a 80gph pump inside of an acrylic chamber, lets the water at the bottom circulate but only trickles run down to the media so it remains wet but not soggy and allows enough time for the plants to use the nitrogen before the water drips back down to the fish below. 

Everything is flush with the glass so there's no way to get from one side to the other. The dimensions for the platform is 18x18x15

I really love frogs that have a call or look pretty in groups. So I'm really just looking for suggestions. 
Right now humidity is 75% during the day and 90% at night. I can easily bump the humidity up if needed so it's not an issue. 

Keeping a singular small frog wouldn't be ideal. I either need a big frog with big poops or a bunch of small frogs with small poops. 

Any help appreciated.


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## riot (Dec 4, 2020)

Just wanted to start by saying that is an awesome looking way to incorporate an aquatic feature.

I'm no pro at this, so I'll defer to those with the experience, but happened to be lurking and wanted to bring up a few items that could be problematic.

That is a lot of light - what is the temperature range of the vivarium?

Also the substrate itself doesn't sound ideal for dart frogs (or almost any frogs for that matter). Darts need a layer of leaf litter over the substrate, which I imagine you could implement easily, however Perlite, while non toxic does provide a impaction risk if ingested (during feeding). Moss is another potential impaction risk if eaten, and also tends to hold onto moisture too well - it's important the frogs feet have a chance to dry out to avoid health issues.

The constant water movement from the pump also adds an extra element to contend with in regulating the humidity, particularly the substrate, though I'll leave the specifics there to those with the experience.

Additionally mint leaves contain trace oils, hence the aroma and taste, normally not enough to cause animals problems, however amphibians have skin that is very permeable. The trace amounts of mint oil might be a stressor or even outright harmful - Maybe not, but worth doing more digging on. It sounds like these plants could be easily changed out though.

Generally it is better to start with deciding on the animal first and then building the enclosure around their needs rather than vice versa, however I understand in this situation you started with the aquaponic idea. If you're comfortable with a little bit of modification here I think you would be better off with an arboreal frog than dart frogs. Based on the humidity levels probably some type of neotropical tree frogs. This would allow you more flexibility in the substrate, and since they would have access to the height of the enclosure they could better regulate their own temperate and humidity levels by moving. However that recommendation also depends on the temperatures, if the top is considerably warmer due to the light tree frogs might not be an option.


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

riot said:


> Just wanted to start by saying that is an awesome looking way to incorporate an aquatic feature.
> 
> I'm no pro at this, so I'll defer to those with the experience, but happened to be lurking and wanted to bring up a few items that could be problematic.
> 
> ...


Thanks it was a kind of sh**y 1 day build but it worked so well I decided to run with it.

So the way the actual tray system setup goes like this: 1/2 inch moss at the top, under is smooth river stones to allow heavy drainage and to keep froggy faces out, under that is coco and at the bottom under a sheet of fine acrylic screen mesh is the perlite, loose. The system is setup to slowly trickle water down through the roots and let the aquarium water aerate inside the chamber. So the media its self is wet but it's not actually soggy, it has a lot of drainage and the coco being in the middle keeps it from staying too wet and drowning the roots.

When I built it, it was intended for an arboreal tree frog. But when I asked about what would be appropriate for this tank we couldn't really decide so it was suggested I come here 

I know you guys probably mainly deal with dart frogs but maybe some folks know about other frogs too? I hope.

I had wanted to keep Coqui frogs but I have a better chance at getting refined uranium. So now I'm trying to figure out a vocal or pretty frog to fit the bill and give me more nitrogen.

As far as noisy goes the best I hard was that dumpy frogs are loud? That was it.

For pretty frogs I was looking at glass frogs clown frogs and red eye trees. But red eyes may be too large to keep a pair in there and the rest I have no idea if they can be kept in groups


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

The LED is a board unit with a heavy duty set of fans. It changes the temperature by a whole 3 degrees XD 

The water is heated so the tank stays at 75-80 during lights on, and around 70 at lights off. 

The rig is bright but it isn't harmful just mostly red and blue spectrum specifically for terrestrial plants so it looks very very very red in pics. I've had this board for a while and it's been used for a lot of animals. Haven't seen any issues but who knows.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Parsing strategy it does not appear to be frog-centric to any species I can think of.


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## evilfrog92 (Mar 8, 2012)

I would say whites tree frog should do it on the nitrogen.or maybe two clown tree frogs


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

evilfrog92 said:


> I would say whites tree frog should do it on the nitrogen.or maybe two clown tree frogs


Clowns can be kept together?


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

Kmc said:


> Parsing strategy it does not appear to be frog-centric to any species I can think of.


I'm going to make some edits shortly 
Using the data I've been provided here I'm going to increase vertical space to explore, up the humidity and make sure there aren't any dry spots.


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

Better?








Added a vine that was growing in another terrarium, added more moss to the substrate and in crevices to hold more moisture and sealed part of the mesh top. Humidity now 99% and temp is 76-80.


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

If clowns can be kept together then that's fine. I actually have a clown in another tank. It would probably like this setup better


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

And now I can make it a rain chamber with perfect drainage =)

Pleased that the fogger tube actually fit without resealing. Now it should be much more beterrer.


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## SpaceMan (Aug 25, 2013)

I think it's on the small side for any frogs to really be happy. If in your above comment you meant that the entire dimension is 18 x 18 x 15, then that is about 20 gallons, but only half of that volume is available. The smallest I'd consider even for a pair of thumbs would be 20 gallons.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Ezz said:


> And now I can make it a rain chamber with perfect drainage =)
> 
> Pleased that the fogger tube actually fit without resealing. Now it should be much more beterrer.


If you look around the board I think you will find the general opinion is that foggers are not desirable for frog tanks. Frogs thermo regulate through their skin, and if the air is too wet then this is hard to do so. Better to use a mister rather than a fogger


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

SimonL said:


> If you look around the board I think you will find the general opinion is that foggers are not desirable for frog tanks. Frogs thermo regulate through their skin, and if the air is too wet then this is hard to do so. Better to use a mister rather than a fogger


Interesting. Makes sense to me. Fogger out then. In the next build I think I'll convert something wider and taller and build a misting spray bar I can set on a timer. 

A lot to think about. A lot to learn 

I'll just hand mist for now. 

Thank you


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

This is an honest and direct question. *What is the main thing you are trying to accomplish, and what does success at that look like to you?*

The reason for my question - my impression is you're just trying to do too many things in one box. Even with a big box I'd question the approach. This is a small box, which increases the difficulty of at least some of the things you might be trying to accomplish - it diminishes your chances of success.

If you just bull ahead in your endeavors, you will inflict some collateral damage. You understand that, right?


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

I don't understand how nobody has a problem with keeping that many fish in what basically amounts to a shallow tray of filthy water. OP I'm sorry because I can tell you've put a lot of effort into this tank but you are slowly torturing those fish to death.. Get them out of there now and go back to the drawing board, this tank isn't appropriate for any vertebrate life in its current state and there is literally nothing you can do that would make it appropriate for fish. I'm sorry to be blunt, it's cool that you're experimenting with these concepts but this is a failed experiment and you need to learn what you can and move on before you harm any more animals.


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

jgragg said:


> This is an honest and direct question. *What is the main thing you are trying to accomplish, and what does success at that look like to you?*
> 
> The reason for my question - my impression is you're just trying to do too many things in one box. Even with a big box I'd question the approach. This is a small box, which increases the difficulty of at least some of the things you might be trying to accomplish - it diminishes your chances of success.
> 
> If you just bull ahead in your endeavors, you will inflict some collateral damage. You understand that, right?


My original intention was proof of concept that gives me a curiosity to stare at. I wanted to show you can easily make an aquaponic display out of junk and I like frogs so I figured they would be the best choice to complete the nitrogen cycle 

I'm pretty good with aquatics, and I know a fair bit about hydroponics. But I can't say amphibian care is a skill I hold..

My end goal is to create a sustainable display for Coqui frogs. I'll get those frogs somehow..


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

Louis said:


> I don't understand how nobody has a problem with keeping that many fish in what basically amounts to a shallow tray of filthy water. OP I'm sorry because I can tell you've put a lot of effort into this tank but you are slowly torturing those fish to death.. Get them out of there now and go back to the drawing board, this tank isn't appropriate for any vertebrate life in its current state and there is literally nothing you can do that would make it appropriate for fish. I'm sorry to be blunt, it's cool that you're experimenting with these concepts but this is a failed experiment and you need to learn what you can and move on before you harm any more animals.


Sorry but I have a life of professional experience with aquatics. This setup is perfectly fine. 

And if it assuages your fears the feeder guppies will get rotated out in to the mouth of some hungry fish and coral when they exceed appropriate size so don't worry.


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

Louis said:


> I don't understand how nobody has a problem with keeping that many fish in what basically amounts to a shallow tray of filthy water. OP I'm sorry because I can tell you've put a lot of effort into this tank but you are slowly torturing those fish to death.. Get them out of there now and go back to the drawing board, this tank isn't appropriate for any vertebrate life in its current state and there is literally nothing you can do that would make it appropriate for fish. I'm sorry to be blunt, it's cool that you're experimenting with these concepts but this is a failed experiment and you need to learn what you can and move on before you harm any more animals.





Louis said:


> I don't understand how nobody has a problem with keeping that many fish in what basically amounts to a shallow tray of filthy water. OP I'm sorry because I can tell you've put a lot of effort into this tank but you are slowly torturing those fish to death.. Get them out of there now and go back to the drawing board, this tank isn't appropriate for any vertebrate life in its current state and there is literally nothing you can do that would make it appropriate for fish. I'm sorry to be blunt, it's cool that you're experimenting with these concepts but this is a failed experiment and you need to learn what you can and move on before you harm any more animals.


Oh and mate. Dirty water is cloudy, tanic water inhibits fungal growth and tints the water brown. When your throw a light on it at an angle, like the one that's remarkably obviously there, you can create the illusion of a different color of water, like blue or green or red...


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Ezz said:


> I'm pretty good with aquatics, and I know a fair bit about hydroponics. But I can't say amphibian care is a skill I hold.


unfortunately aquatics care isn't a skill you hold either and it's self evident from this thread that you know very little about hydroponics.



> My end goal is to create a sustainable display for Coqui frogs. I'll get those frogs somehow..


I hope not.


Ezz said:


> This setup is perfectly fine.


No. it's not.




> And if it assuages your fears the feeder guppies will get rotated out in to the mouth of some hungry fish and coral when they exceed appropriate size so don't worry.


Unfortunately knowing that you're in possession of other fish and even coral does nothing to assuage my fears. It's somewhat reassuring that the guppies will have short lives and therefore their suffering while in your 'care' will be minimised.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Ezz said:


> Oh and mate. Dirty water is cloudy, tanic water inhibits fungal growth and tints the water brown. When your throw a light on it at an angle, like the one that's remarkably obviously there, you can create the illusion of a different color of water, like blue or green or red...


The water in this stup is filthy and it's totally inappropriate for fish or any other vertebrate animal. It's as simple as that, I'm perfectly happy for you to continue being wrong though so please do carry on. I don't know what the anti fungal properties of _tannic_ acid have to do with it.
Seems weird that you wouldn't know how to spell tannic after your life of 'professional aquatics' experience by the way.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Ok, Guys. Let's stick to discussing the topic at hand. I think you have had your say on the fish-keeping matter and I don't want this to devolve any further.

Mark


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## riot (Dec 4, 2020)

Ezz said:


> My original intention was proof of concept that gives me a curiosity to stare at. I wanted to show you can easily make an aquaponic display out of junk and I like frogs so I figured they would be the best choice to complete the nitrogen cycle


I think the enclosure itself is a cool _concept_, but I do agree with jgragg that it seems like you're trying to do too much in too small of a box. There really is not any frog I can think of that would be ideal here. Someone mentioned White's tree frogs - they would be too large and I think the humidity may be too high for them. Also heard Red Eyed Tree Frogs - humidity probably more in line but also too big. A pair of American Green Tree Frogs might be the right size, but humidity again, likely too high out of range. Even the Darts that might be suitable with some major modifications (completely altering the substrate) are likely too large for that space, with the few that stay small enough being among the worst for anyone new to amphibians IMO.

Regardless of this if you do manage to find a suitable frog you will want to cover the moss with something like leaf litter and/or replace it all-together, as mentioned it is a impaction risk, even to tree frogs who will still feed from the ground. Additionally, unless you know for certain trace mint oil is not harmful to amphibians (they respirate via skin) that needs to be replaced - not really something worth experimenting on.

I'm mildly familiar with the hydroponics, though no pro either, I am however a little puzzled by your reasoning for wanting to incorporate a land based animal. You mentioned completing the nitrogen cycle, however this setup should not need any land based animals given the bio load in the aquarium portion. My understanding is by pumping the water up into the vivarium the fish waste provides fertilizer to the plants (via nitrogen cycle) in the form of nitrates. Hydroponics setups rarely (if ever) also incorporate land based animals, especially as normally the plants are periodically harvested and doing do would prove more problematic/introduce additional waste to the harvested plant. In this situation you would also just be increasing the amount of ammonia in the fish enclosure, which based on overall size/bio load may be near capacity for the nitrifying bacteria.

If you really want to incorporate life in the top portion of this system I would highly recommend you look into invertebrates. Perhaps a tarantula, or some type of Mantids - the tropical varieties can be stunning. If the end goal is Coqui Frogs I believe you will have more luck starting a vivarium from scratch with them in mind separate from this enclosure.


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Ok, Guys. Let's stick to discussing the topic at hand. I think you have had your say on the fish-keeping matter and I don't want this to devolve any further.
> 
> Mark


Thank you. 

I think the idea was fine but the help care knowledge was severely lacking in this design. 

For the next design I'll be incorporating the advice here and use a 75-200g long for the next build. Should give me a lot more vertical space. For the foam I think I'll add moisture pockets and then the pump can be hooked up to a misting bar and a waterfall feature...

I think I'll also play around with the hydroponics media too. A flatter moss cover should reduce ingestion of foreign material if I use a pillow moss or something as a cover.

Or I could do a light cover crop to essentially just block out the media layer. I think I also want a charcoal layer instead of perlite the incorporated reactor it too mechanical in regards to filtration and it stays too wet, so those large charcoal chips used for springtails should probably do the trick better.

Also the next terrarium I'll do bamboo. Should be the best option for aesthetic and utility for an arboreal species. 

Although now I have a design for a terrestrial system in my head... 

I think I'll build that first actually.

I have a spare 30x12x18, figure... about a 7 inch space for the aquatic section so final space would be 30x10x11 

Is this size better for a terrestrial frog like a tinc or something?


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

riot said:


> I think the enclosure itself is a cool _concept_, but I do agree with jgragg that it seems like you're trying to do too much in too small of a box. There really is not any frog I can think of that would be ideal here. Someone mentioned White's tree frogs - they would be too large and I think the humidity may be too high for them. Also heard Red Eyed Tree Frogs - humidity probably more in line but also too big. A pair of American Green Tree Frogs might be the right size, but humidity again, likely too high out of range. Even the Darts that might be suitable with some major modifications (completely altering the substrate) are likely too large for that space, with the few that stay small enough being among the worst for anyone new to amphibians IMO.
> 
> Regardless of this if you do manage to find a suitable frog you will want to cover the moss with something like leaf litter and/or replace it all-together, as mentioned it is a impaction risk, even to tree frogs who will still feed from the ground. Additionally, unless you know for certain trace mint oil is not harmful to amphibians (they respirate via skin) that needs to be replaced - not really something worth experimenting on.
> 
> ...


You're not wrong. I should have done more froggy homework this setup is not suitable for frogs by the advice I'm seeing here. So the next project will be larger.
Also any issue with using Catappa leaves as litter? 

As for why terrestrial. 
So aquaponics is flexible, but when done in large scale the fish used (carp) poop and eat a LOT. That level of N is more than suitable.

But the smaller you scale it down the less N your fish are producing. Small wild breed guppies aren't pumping out a ton of nitrogen, on top of that I'm changing the water out for pure RODI every 3 days so the N in the water won't spike and start burning fish gills. If you add a terrestrial animal its waste will get stuck around the coco layer and decay there, creating little lumps of accessible organic nitrogen at the root zone in addition to the nitrogen dissolved in to the circulating water. 

That's why even with media based hydro the coco or media is often amended with organics like worm castings, crab meal, guano, manure etc. 

Everybody seems to have their own recommendation on a hydro media mix, I've run coco hydro just with liquid ferts and I've run it with all the fixings. Just depends on what you're growing I guess. 

I hope that explains it well. English was not my first or second language so I still find that with typing it's hard to get what I'm saying out clearly.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

I would advise against moss as a ground covering. Frogs don’t need it and it’s bad for their feet. Go for lots of leaf litter instead. Same thing for water features - frogs don’t need them and they can be dangerous. Otherwise good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ezz (Apr 6, 2021)

SimonL said:


> I would advise against moss as a ground covering. Frogs don’t need it and it’s bad for their feet. Go for lots of leaf litter instead. Same thing for water features - frogs don’t need them and they can be dangerous. Otherwise good luck!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh wow. I didn't even know that. Jeeze. That sucks. Are there other options besides heavy leaf litter?

I guess if a trickle is an issue I could do a drip feed under the actual standing area for the frogs.. or create an enclosed water feature Shouldn't be too much of an issue. 

Now I'm excited to see what I can do


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## riot (Dec 4, 2020)

Ezz said:


> Oh wow. I didn't even know that. Jeeze. That sucks. Are there other options besides heavy leaf litter?
> 
> I guess if a trickle is an issue I could do a drip feed under the actual standing area for the frogs.. or create an enclosed water feature Shouldn't be too much of an issue.
> 
> Now I'm excited to see what I can do


Darts absolutely need the leaf litter - allows more coverage, sense of security, reduces the chance of them eating substrate while feeding, and arguably the most important it helps keep their feet dryer, constantly wet feet will cause health issues. While it's not considered as vital for tree frogs (don't spend as much time on ground) it's still very beneficial. 

I imagine if starting from scratch you could pump the water directly into the substrate but below the layer of leaf litter. This would also help to keep the water containing more ammonia, nitrite & nitrate away from the frogs. 

I would imagine the idea behind something like this is to minimize inputs and outputs, but you also mentioned you have to do RO water changes every 3 days - in a true aquaponic setting wouldn't you want the N to be absorbed into the plants at a rate that allows N removal via harvesting the plant matter, and thereby the water changes obsolete?

I do find the concept of using fish waste to help with plant growth in a vivarium interesting, however I'd also advise you to search for posts on this forum about tricks for managing plant growth, you'll likely find that once the bioactive vivariums are established the largest 'complaint' related to plants is keeping them trimmed back enough they don't overwhelm the tank. To some extent you're kind of trying to solve for a problem that doesn't really exist. I'm not suggesting you cannot accomplish this, but I think you would have more long term success if you separated the aquaponic idea from the vivarium. 

I'm confident you have the skillset to create an awesome false bottom bioactive vivarium for Coqui's, why try to do too much 'ok' when you can do one thing really well?


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Ezz said:


> Small wild breed guppies aren't pumping out a ton of nitrogen, on top of that I'm changing the water out for pure RODI every 3 days so the N in the water won't spike and start burning fish gills.





> keeping guppies (a brackish water fish) or almost any other livebearer in pure RODI water
> life of professional aquatics experience


Pick one. It would be inappropriate to keep any fish in a tiny tray of filthy water like this, even less appropriate to keep a brackish water fish in a tiny tray of water that's been stripped of absolutely all minerals. Also, if you really are replacing the water with pure RODI ever three days and it's still that cloudly then your 'system' has even bigger problems than you might realise.
You have a vision that it _would_ be possible to fully realise, but you badly need to go back to the drawing board when it comes to animal welfare.
Encyclia I appreciate you want to avoid discussions getting heated but I don't see how the board can promote specific standards of care for dart frogs so aggressively and turn a blind eye to this degree of negligent animal abuse when it comes to fish, even guppies when they're being used as live food for larger fish. 
I don't imagine anyone would be impressed if I was 'breeding' dart frogs to feed to Leimadophis epinephelus in comparably inhumane and inappropriate conditions and frogs don't meaningfully posess any greater capacity for suffering than fish do, you can remove most of their brain without killing them and they will still hop, swim and even swallow food. 
I'm not taking a position on using vertebrates as live food but even when they're being raised as feedstock more consideration should be given to animal welfare than is evident here.
This guy is specifically claiming to be speaking from authority based on a life of professional aquatics experience so I'm not willing to give him a pass for animal cruelty against fish. 
I don't know about America but in the UK keeping guppies in this set up would actually be considered a crime under the animal welfare act. We have plenty of members from the UK here, it's relevant to point out that this setup would actually be considered to be criminally negligent under our national law.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Louis said:


> Pick one. It would be inappropriate to keep any fish in a tiny tray of filthy water like this, even less appropriate to keep a brackish water fish in a tiny tray of water that's been stripped of absolutely all minerals. Also, if you really are replacing the water with pure RODI ever three days and it's still that cloudly then your 'system' has even bigger problems than you might realise.
> You have a vision that it _would_ be possible to fully realise, but you badly need to go back to the drawing board when it comes to animal welfare.
> Encyclia I appreciate you want to avoid discussions getting heated but I don't see how the board can promote specific standards of care for dart frogs so aggressively and turn a blind eye to this degree of negligent animal abuse when it comes to fish, even guppies when they're being used as live food for larger fish.
> I don't imagine anyone would be impressed if I was 'breeding' dart frogs to feed to Leimadophis epinephelus in comparably inhumane and inappropriate conditions and frogs don't meaningfully posess any greater capacity for suffering than fish do, you can remove most of their brain without killing them and they will still hop, swim and even swallow food.
> ...


I don’t believe it would be a crime here. Tiny, unsuitable fish bowls and tanks are all over the market here. But I agree with your sentiments, also to point out that this is an aquaponic, not a hydroponic set up. Hydroponics don’t involve fish as the source of nutrients in the water. I’ve been tempted to try aquaponic set ups, but I just haven’t felt right about keeping fish like that. I think you can get good results just mixing your own nutrients, and I’d gladly give OP tips on that through a private message!

I also have seen people with paludarium type set ups, where there are fish in the water serving a similar function to plants growing out of the water...but once again, I’m uncomfortable with having even guppies in such a limited space (plus there’s definitely still the need for a lot of water change. And then the frogs usually don’t need all that water there. As have been stated, these things are cool concepts, but I think it’s best for the animals to have them separately, where you can gear the whole setup to just their optimal needs (for both the fish and frogs). And also, I think hydroponics, sans fish, allows for more control in things like PH and nutrient content that goes toward growing your plants. IMO anyway.


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## Christine86 (Feb 4, 2021)

Ezz said:


> Sorry but I have a life of professional experience with aquatics. This setup is perfectly fine.
> 
> And if it assuages your fears the feeder guppies will get rotated out in to the mouth of some hungry fish and coral when they exceed appropriate size so don't worry.


If you show this on any fishkeeping forum they will tell you this is not okay. It's way to small to keep any fish in. And yes it's filthy water not a black water biotope, wouldn't keep my fish in that.


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