# What has the world come to????



## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

Just wanted to rant a little bit after finding this on ebay.

Live Dart Frogs - Poison Frogs - Tadpoles - D. Azureus - eBay (item 250799491167 end time Apr-11-11 10:34:22 PDT)

Just wanted to hear everyones thoughts?
-scotty


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I wasn't aware that Ebay permitted the sale of live animals, other than fish.


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

Personally im quite apalled and im not really sure what to say about it. Any other thoughts?
-scotty


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

Here is Ebay's policy

Restricted
Crickets, worms, or other herbivorous insects as long as they're intended to be used for bait or food for pets 

Hatching eggs from some animals – for example, chicken eggs – as long as they're shipped only within the U.S. However, hatching eggs from endangered species, migratory birds, snakes, or turtles aren't allowed.
Shellfish, such as crabs and lobsters, to be used as food 
Snails or slugs, but only those that are known as domestic aquatic snails and the following five types that you can eat (usually called escargot):
Helix aperta or Cantareus apertus (usually called burrowing snails)

Helix aspersa or Cryptomphalus aspersus (usually called small grey snails) 

Helix pomatia (usually called apple snails, Burgundy snails, lunar snails, or Roman snails)

Otala lactea or Helix lactea (usually called milk snails, Spanish snails, or vineyard snails)

Otala vermiculata or Eobania vermiculata (usually called vinyala, mongeta, or xona)

Before listing escargot, be sure to get the proper permits for selling and shipping snails. If you're importing food products into the U.S., they have to go through inspection at JFK airport in New York.

Tropical fish. Be sure to check if permits are required.



Not allowed
Animals that aren't listed above, such as:

Endangered species

Migratory birds, including cranes, ducks, eagles, geese, hawks, hummingbirds, owls, shorebirds, seabirds, songbirds, and wading birds. See the Migratory Bird Treaty Act for a complete list of protected birds.

Noxious insects

Pets

Sharks, including small aquarium sharks


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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

scottydo said:


> Personally im quite apalled and im not really sure what to say about it. Any other thoughts?
> -scotty


Why? Can you explain why exactly you are apalled?

It is just other person selling frogs online. Actually it might be safer for the buyer to go this route then responding to an add.


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

Mabey apalled was not the correct wording, however i quite enjoy the personal experience between two froggers when buying/selling/trading frogs. In addition to that it is against ebay policies to sell them. What really bothers me is it seems that its a very unprofessional way to sell frogs in that there is very little to no contact between the buyer and seller and there may be care issues resulting in just selling frogs on ebay where the frogs may not be going to a person who has adequate experience in the care and necessities of poison dart frogs. I understand those requirements are stated but it is different when the person is having a face to face or at least exchanging information between each other. I know that when i sell frogs i ask the persons experience with dart frogs and if they have none i wont sell the frogs until i know that person understands their care needs. Just my thoughts and i know others probably will have different views but i just wanted to hear everyones.
-scotty


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think the person maybe able to argue that they are accepted under the fish clause as tadpoles are often sold for fish tanks. 

Ed


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

In their post it says 2-4 month old froglets 

"For sale are multiple Dendrobates azureus froglets. These well-established juveniles are approximately 2-4 months old and 1/2 to 3/4 inch in size. They will attain a maximum length of 1 1/3 to 1 3/4 inches. The pictured frog is a typical adult frog, but all frogs are quite beautiful."-seller



-scotty


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The title says tadpoles.. If they are selling froglets, then just report the ad as a violation of E-Bay policy.. I'm not sure it's worth a lot of fuss. 

Ed


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

Im not in it to cause problems for the seller i was just seeing what everyones thoughts were on this. Am i over reacting? My apologies if i upset anyone i just appreciate our hobby and the ties it creates and it bothers me that dart frogs are now being sold on ebay. 
-scotty


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you are starting a discussion on how good/bad it is as part of a rant on your part, how are you not causing problems for the seller? 


Would it be any different if they were offered for sale on herp auction site? For example ReptileStation.com - Reptile Auction Sell and buy reptiles, snakes, tortoise, lizards and more in an online reptile auction. 

How is it different than the froglets being put up for sale on kingsnake.com or fauna classifieds? 

If they are violating the policies of E-Bay, report it and move on...

I'm going to add that I don't have a clue who is doing it, I'm just curious as to why it would be a big deal.


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

I guess its just a personal issue with me its cool didnt mean to cause an uproar but thank you for your insight 
-scotty


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## mr.marvin (Apr 5, 2011)

I think I agree with Ed. At least this ad with ebay has a rating for teh seller which is pretty high. So previous buyers were satisfied with their service. Soes not seem any different then other on line sellers. I think is is always best to buy local. Just my thoughts.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I find it really no different then any other classified selling frogs. I think people are just looking for something else to crab about. 

Have a coke and a smile and go enjoy your frogs.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

mr.marvin said:


> At least this ad with ebay has a rating for teh seller which is pretty high. So previous buyers were satisfied with their service.


Actually, as a seller, they leave a lot to be desired. If you look "only" at the feedback left for her as a seller, there have been 15 total feedback. 2 are Neutrals with complaints and 3 are Negatives. There are 12 unique users who left feedback. Out of those 12, 3 left a neut or neg...which means you have about a 1 in 4 chance of being a happy buyer. It seems she's very careless when shipping plants... I don't think I'd want to risk a live frog with someone who has feedback like that.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> I find it really no different then any other classified selling frogs. I think people are just looking for something else to crab about.
> 
> Have a coke and a smile and go enjoy your frogs.


It strikes me as a subtle display of the snobbery/elitism that pops up in the dart frog hobby so often. It's cool for other terrarium/aquarium animals to be sold through ebay, but not darts. Darts are SPECIAL and not for the common folk who peruse such lowbrow marketplaces.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't see this as any different than buying frogs from someone on here. You can contact an eBay seller just as easily as I could contact a breeder here on DB.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I have to admit my first gut reaction was to be bummed out. Maybe because it's Ebay I instantly tend to throw it in the "puppy-mill for frogs" category. The fact that they throw in an extra froglet to cover losses and are willing to ship 2 day adds to that. 

If I'm honest though, they offer more accurate info on care than most pet stores would.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> Actually, as a seller, they leave a lot to be desired. If you look "only" at the feedback left for her as a seller, there have been 15 total feedback. 2 are Neutrals with complaints and 3 are Negatives. There are 12 unique users who left feedback. Out of those 12, 3 left a neut or neg...which means you have about a 1 in 4 chance of being a happy buyer. It seems she's very careless when shipping plants... I don't think I'd want to risk a live frog with someone who has feedback like that.


Too true, Wendy! I have a LOT of experience on ebay over the years and can tell you that the feedback system is not that great. You want to look between the lines like Wendy did. Click on that 530 beside her name and read some comments. Lots of comments like "Great Seller!" and "I'll be back!" are good to see. But comments like "received item" and "got it" don't mean much. Anything below 99 percent should be suspect, especially with live items.
Personally, as someone who has sold many hundreds of live corals on eBay and always kept my 100% rating (same seller name...Pumilo), I don't have a problem with someone selling frogs on eBay but I wouldn't order from this person.
As a side note, reporting this to eBay does absolutely nothing. Sure they have their "regulations", but they truly do not care. They want to sell and turn a profit. I have reported things several times and they do nothing. They MIGHT shut down an auction if someone were selling guns, explosives, or drugs, but even then I'm not sure. Ebay has evolved into a huge rolling monster, ugly and unstoppable, crushing all in it's path in pursuit of the almighty dollar! I will admit, I still use them as a tool. But in the same way that you wouldn't expect a hammer to protect you or do the right thing, don't ever expect eBay to do anything about a bad listing or to protect you.
How's that for a rant?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

"What has the world come to????"

I expect a message about nuclear meltdown, or war in Africa, or any number of truly important topics that affect the entire world - before reading about a sale on eBay.

Seriously.

s


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

zBrinks said:


> I wasn't aware that Ebay permitted the sale of live animals, other than fish.


probably allow it since it's a tad. A fully morphed frog would probably cause issue, though


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

scottydo said:


> Im not in it to cause problems for the seller i was just seeing what everyones thoughts were on this. Am i over reacting? My apologies if i upset anyone i just appreciate our hobby and the ties it creates and it bothers me that dart frogs are now being sold on ebay.
> -scotty


why, did you see dart frogs as a way to elevate yourself over the common user of ebay, or something?


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## Jarhead_2016 (Jan 7, 2010)

I have taken ed's advice and dropped the subject. I overreacted on something stupid and i retract my statements i have made. I did not elevate myself over the seller on ebay, this was not the point i was making. Needless to say i apologise if i upset anyone and would like to close this thread mods please delete when you get a chance. 
-scotty


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Closed per request.


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