# huh?



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Anyone ever see these before?
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22402

Keep the comments nice please...


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

I've never seen them but they sure are proud of them. $180 :shock:


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## droseraman (Jun 17, 2004)

i tried to find pics of them earlier but couldnt find any. 180 is steep.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

I smell a piebald ball python some where hahahaha sad really


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Basically they are what Vanishing Jewels calls albino leucs. In their description on their site they even elude to that's where they come from, but as far as the price goes, it's pretty much expected. Just a sample of prices on there will tell you that they sell for pretty high dollar and around pet store prices. For example G/B auratus 69.99, azureus 99.99, regular leucs 79.99. So as you can see their prices are inflated anyways and these are just inflated a little more. If these were offered by someone in the hobby, or maybe even perhaps from Vanishing Jewels themselves they would go for around $90-100, but still a little pricey. They look like sweet frogs but just a little too ich for a leuc IMO. There was a thread here recently about them that had some pics that either called them chocolate leucs or albino leucs...


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I have heard of them - but the term "Chocolate" is new to me. (I believe) They are the "albino" Leucs that Vanishing Jewels:

http://www.vanishingjewels.com/Vanishin ... omela.html (1/2 way down)


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## droseraman (Jun 17, 2004)

i have heard it used for albine plecos as in the fish. they call one red eyed chocolate plecos. so i guess it works.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Didn't patricia offer these for sale a bit ago here? Maybe it was kingsnake...? Maybe I'm on crack.

I think others have mentioned before that their leucs have produced clear tadpoles before but none have ever survived. I have gotten one clear guy to last a few weeks in the water, but died off.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

joshsfrogs said:


> Didn't patricia offer these for sale a bit ago here? Maybe it was kingsnake...? Maybe I'm on crack.


No - I think that she did - or she responded to a thread regarding them - but I am almost positive she put up a post with a bunch of frogs listed.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

droseraman said:


> i tried to find pics of them earlier but couldnt find any. 180 is steep.


http://www.petsolutions.com/Chocolate+B ... 1L-I-.aspx


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## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

I'll stick to my normal ones, thanks!


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I saw these at an expo not to long ago. IMO I dont think they are any type of albino or albino cross. They look exactly like regular luecs but the black is lighter like a dark chocolate color. They actually are very nice looking. Not $180 nice but they do look good.
Jason


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## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

Yeah I think the standards are much prettier imo but that picture was kinda cute ^_^


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

$180????? :shock: 

No thank you.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I think that I remember seeing them advertised in a Reptiles Magazine issue somewhere...


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I was not sure at first what they were, and honestly hate the BS names some of these places use. Call it like it is!


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## forestexotics (Nov 14, 2006)

I have seen these at an expo. http://www.underthecanopyfarms.net was selling them as albinos. Theyre nice, but like you all said, not $180 nice. :shock:


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## OneSmallFrog (Apr 27, 2005)

"be nice"

I guess those like me who find these line bred mutants gaginating should be quiet and let people who think they're OK create the overall impression newbies will take away.

Bev


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

OneSmallFrog said:


> "be nice"
> 
> I guess those like me who find these line bred mutants gaginating should be quiet and let people who think they're OK create the overall impression newbies will take away.
> 
> Bev


Who says that their line bred? Do you have proof? I sure have never heard of them until now, and would not want them if they are, but if your gonna make that kind of accusation then you need to back it up.

Interesting frog, but I'll take a regular leuc any day over that one, esspecially for that price.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

I'm not positive, but I think the parents are two WC animals. So, not line bred...yet.


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## OneSmallFrog (Apr 27, 2005)

I didn't realize "line bred" was an accusation, since many people seem to think there's nothing wrong with it. If it is, I apologize. "Selectively bred" may have been a more accurate term. 

Regardless, I despise the attitude of "oh look, an abnormal frog! I can get lots of money for that!". I worry about where that attitude will take the captive frog world.

I wish people didn't view them as worth one penny more than a normal frog. Otherwise they will be line bred, more for their sale value than any intrinsic desirability. 

Bev


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Here's the actual page with them for sale: http://www.petsolutions.com/Chocolate+Bumblebee+Dart+Frog-I-7841L-I-.aspx
This is one of the reasons I really dislike common names for these guys.


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## jaysnakes (Jul 5, 2006)

I'm very new to this hobby. All my real experience working with animals comes from the snake hobby. I keep and breed reticulated pythons. My biggest girl right now is 19' 250lbs. She's big but I love her to death. :lol:

New retic morphs are coming out every couple years ranging from 3-15k a piece. :? No thank you! It's all a money game. Breeders always think they have the 'hot new thing' in the snake world. So the prices are jacked up so high the average hobbyist will never be able to afford these animals and let me add some of these morphs are quite ugly IMO and I wouldn't spend a dime on them. 

It's all just a money game. Some person trying to make a quick buck cause they have something relatively rare in the hobby. I think this leuc is neat looking but as stated numerous times before I don't think it's worth the asking price of $180. 

I would venture to guess there are people out there who would jump on these frogs at this price thinking in their mind they can make a bunch of money off these animals but the truth is only time will tell. The price for these leucs will eventually drop to where the average person is willing to pay for them. 

I don't think this price will hold this high for very long. And those of you who like the looks of this morph will be able to get them soon enough. I personally like the normal leuc better. It's a neat looking frog but I wont be adding this frog to my wish list any time soon with a reasonable price or not.

Jason


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

I think part of the challenge in addressing these things is that we as a hobby are kind of segmented; that is, we don't speak through a unified voice like some herp societies or other hobbies can through an organization or association. Similarly, there is very little written about this subject that is comprehensive or cogent. You can find a lot of information about care, feeding, housing, and related issues, but most of the hobby literature doesn't cover what I would call management and standardization issues.

In this particular case, I think it would be well within bounds for concerned individuals to respectfully express their concern to the vendor and explain the pros and cons of their naming system and general trends in the dart frog hobby. Perhaps something like Chocolate Bumblebee (Dendrobates leucomelas, F1 Guyana, X Region).

In the long run, there are a handful of issues which have been discussed over and over and could stand to be summarized in a semi-formal article -- subjects such as hybrids, morphs, line-breeding, etc. I'm not implying that there is a "right" answer, but the dialog is very sporadic. As a result, I think the application of any sort of standard is equally sporadic and expecting an animal vendor like this to apply a standard which does not exist is not really fair when we as a hobby label animals at least 3 different ways.

Also, while I think this vendor might do a better job in categorizing these animals and naming them, I think we as a hobby in general have a ways to go before we can really point the finger. It is natural to gravitate toward labeling animals according to their physical traits as we see with many dendrobatids and many of us do without question. Similarly, we sometimes chose to describe subspecies by lines using someone's name. 

The final subspecies designation, which denotes the geographic region the animal came from, is in my opinion the most useful and perhaps the best way to label and categorize these animals in the long term. However this still presents a challenge as we see in the current pumilio debate where a population is labeled by the island they are on and yet there is still a tendency to try and continue to subdivide these animals by color and color mixture a decision which may be completely arbitrary.

At TWI, we are actively discussing these issues. The reason we care as an NGO is that stable management of animals in the hobby is good for the animals, reduces unsustainable demand, and creates a talent pool of capable breeders for our conservation breeding programs.

Right now with new imports coming in from concerned exporters willing to tackle these issues and similarly-minded importers, the opportunity to set a new standard for management and description of animals could be very close at hand. Through our Amphibian Steward Network, we hope to bring a group of commercial vendors, hobbyists, and ecologists to the table to get some recommendations about what the "best practices" might be and how we can implement these practices in such a way that the vendor, customer, breeder, exporter, importer, and most importantly the animal all benefit.

Marcos


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

OneSmallFrog said:


> I didn't realize "line bred" was an accusation, since many people seem to think there's nothing wrong with it. If it is, I apologize. "Selectively bred" may have been a more accurate term.
> 
> Regardless, I despise the attitude of "oh look, an abnormal frog! I can get lots of money for that!". I worry about where that attitude will take the captive frog world.
> 
> ...


Pobably could have used a better word than accusation. I knew that you were refering to selective breeding in order to bring out a specific color. What I was getting at was that we really do not know (or maybe we do) where these frogs came from or if they are from a lagitamate wild population of brown and black leucs. It does seem suspect, but we really can't say that they are selectively bred if nobody really knows for sure.


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## OneSmallFrog (Apr 27, 2005)

Paul E. Wog said:


> Pobably could have used a better word than accusation. I knew that you were refering to selective breeding in order to bring out a specific color. What I was getting at was that we really do not know (or maybe we do) where these frogs came from or if they are from a lagitamate wild population of brown and black leucs. It does seem suspect, but we really can't say that they are selectively bred if nobody really knows for sure.


If there is a population in the wild like these, then that's great and I have nothing against anyone asking what the market will bear. But these are the same frogs Vanishing Jewels called "albino", which I infer to mean they're descended from one or a few individuals with some sort of hypomelanistic mutation in an otherwise wild type group. Perhaps I'm inferring too much. 

Bev


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

OneSmallFrog said:


> Paul E. Wog said:
> 
> 
> > Pobably could have used a better word than accusation. I knew that you were refering to selective breeding in order to bring out a specific color. What I was getting at was that we really do not know (or maybe we do) where these frogs came from or if they are from a lagitamate wild population of brown and black leucs. It does seem suspect, but we really can't say that they are selectively bred if nobody really knows for sure.
> ...


I see your point, but I think that calling them albino is way off, which leads me to think that they really don't understand what they have.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

They certainly don't look like standard T negative albinos, but they could be some form of T positive albino...

T negative means that an individuals has dysfunctional copies of the enzyme tyrosinase, which starts the amino acid tyrosine on the path to become melanin. However, other enzymes in the pathway can be affected, leading to T positive albinism. T positive albinism often has a different phenotype (ie eyes aren't totally red, production of melanin may be impaired but not wiped out, etc)

So I'm not sure it's entirely inaccurate to say they aren't albino, but it definitely looks like they aren't T negative "classic" albinos.

They definitely aren't as pretty as normal leucs. $180 is ridiculous. And I loathe the name "Bumblebee dart frog."


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Thanks for the info npaul.

I hate all the common names for dart frogs, you see them on a lot of sales sites but nobody ever uses them in actual conversation. I know I never say bumblebee or dying poison dart frog. :roll: I understand the marketing aspect of giving them fancy names, but I'm not so sure that that is the best way to atract people into the hobby. In other words, people who are generally responsable enough to keep DFs are in most cases going to go out of their way to learn the scientific names and not flashy nicknames.


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

First I've ever heard of this frog was about a year ago when Bill at http://www.qualityexotics.com produced 1 from his regular breeding group. 

Pics: 
http://www.qualityexotics.com/images/IMG_1010.JPG

http://www.qualityexotics.com/images/IMG_1012.JPG


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## OneSmallFrog (Apr 27, 2005)

frogman824 said:


> First I've ever heard of this frog was about a year ago when Bill at http://www.qualityexotics.com produced 1 from his regular breeding group.
> 
> Pics:
> http://www.qualityexotics.com/images/IMG_1010.JPG
> ...


Which reminds me -- the Vanishing Jewels ad posted a here few months ago was offering "hets" (also at inflated prices), which further supports the conclusion that this color results from a simple mutation, not a wild population.

Bev


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Looks like you were right Bev. I figured that it was probably just a mutation of the standard leuc morph. I just wanted to be sure. 

We don't need selectively bred frogs in the hobby! In fact I think buying these frogs will only encourage the breeder to continue selectively breeding for this color, so I would say don't buy them at all even if you breed them with standard leucs.


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