# Why is my Varadero so thin?



## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

I've had these guys for about 3 months. I didn't notice they were any different when I got them. Not that I can remember. But recently I have noticed this guy is really thin! None of my other frogs are this thin. 










He seems to be doing okay, but it's got me worried. Should I quarantine him? The other two are fat and healthy. See the one in the pic below:










Any thoughts would be appreciated! 

Justin


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

First off, I'd get him in quarantine container so he can be observed more closely. I'd also get some fecals done to make sure noting is wrong. If there's nothing wrong then maybe he's being outcompeted for food, but I don't think that's common among thumbs. Is he eating at all right now?


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

What you need to do right now is put him in a quarantine container with a lot of springtails. He is probably not taking ff's right now due to stress or other factors. I'm quite sure he will take some springs. It's very important for it to eat something at least. I would also recommend to send fecals ASAP.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

agreed. Isolate him, springtail him, fecal him. Here is a recent letter from Dr Frye outlining the price and procedure. 
_The cost is $18 per group of frogs housed together. Collect 3-5 feces from each group of frogs and put them in a small air-tight container with a small amount of moist paper towel to keep them from drying out. Label each tank’s sample and send them ASAP to xxxx. Try to aim for a Tuesday, Thursday, or Friday delivery. We are closed Wednesdays and Sundays, and the hospital closes on Saturdays before mail arrives. Next day delivery is ideal, but 2-day will work._

I removed his address as I don't feel it's my place to give that out but you can contact him through Frye Brothers' Frogs

Remember that if it checks out positive you must assume any other frogs in the tank may be infected too. He should also be able to advise you whether the viv must be broken down and sterilized.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I want to stress the urgency of this situation---this frog is at death's door. 
He needs immediate medical attn. When removing him, take care not to grip him with your hands as the stress may kill him.

Also, read this:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ncy-rescue-force-feeding-metabolic-needs.html


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

I personally wouldn't give him any ff's. Looking at him, I really doubt he will take them. I think they may actually stress him instead. I would just do springs.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a group of five Varadero imitators and there isn't any competiton for food. If the group was healthy when you received them three months ago, then I would suspect another health issue. So the fecals suggested are the best way to go.

I don't know if folks use electolyte baths for the little frogs the way you would for a larger frog, but this couldn't hurt either.

Good luck with him/her, Richard.


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks for all the assistance! I watched the frog for an hour this morning. He tries to eat the fruit flies, but can't seem to hit them. He was running around the tank like the other Varaderos, so he didn't seem to be stressed.

I've separated him and will try to get fecal samples ASAP. In the mean time any suggestions are appreciated.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

I'd get ahold of Dr. Frye *asap.* Kinda sounds like short tongue, but again Ed, Dr. Frye and others would be better at telling you that kind of info. Email Dr. Frye tonight, and get Fecal' out tomorrow.


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

konton said:


> Thanks for all the assistance! I watched the frog for an hour this morning. He tries to eat the fruit flies, but can't seem to hit them


 This is exactly what I'm talking about. He is not going to be able to take any, period. His condition is really bad. When he tries to go for the ff's and can't, it will definitely stress him out even more. Separate him ASAP and give him a good amount of springs. I would contact Dr. Frye ASAP or contact Rich Frye on the other forum and ask him to please have his brother (Dr. Frye) contact you ASAP.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Most 'likely' he.she is stressed by tankmates. What size tank were the 3 in together?

Generally speaking it isnt uncommon for those that have kept thumbnails to experience stressed tankmates, esp imis.

[throw 5 in a 30 gal, and 12 mo later you have a trio or a pair ]

Anyway, the advice you got about QT is sound.

I'd try and get it to eat springtails, and once able, dusted FF.

The 'missed' flys may be a weakened state of the animal. 

This frog may not 'poop' enough without eating for you to get the 2-3 fecal samples you need to ship them off....eating is the priority.

I wouldnt jump to electrolyte baths, as this can stress the animal further [catching it, bathing it etc]. I have though used amphibian ringers at room temp and dropped it on their backs a couple times a day.

Best,


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I know this is an umbrella statement that isn't true in all cases, but I feel like this is the danger from keeping most thumbs in trios. Pairs are ideal, and for many species groups are alright, but there seems to be something about the *trio* that brings out more intense same-sex stress. Having seen this first hand in your veradero trio I would never reintroduce the skinny one to that tank for fear of the same thing happening.


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sorry to hear your lil guy is not doing good, all the prior advice is great and I would agree that eating is the priority, if you can feed springs daily you may be able to put some weight back on this frog, best of luck


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

I think he's gotten some weight back, but time will tell as I'll keep him in quarantine for a while. He's still a juvie only 7 or 8 months maybe. I have three of them in a 15 gallon. I had been meaning to break them into different tanks as soon as I bought some vert kits so there would only be 2 in a 15 gallon. Anyway thank you everyone for the advice!

Justin


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

sports_doc said:


> Most 'likely' he.she is stressed by tankmates. What size tank were the 3 in together?
> 
> Generally speaking it isnt uncommon for those that have kept thumbnails to experience stressed tankmates, esp imis.


Wholeheartedly agree with this. I've noticed every now and then in my grow out containers that a Varadero will get skinny for no obvious reason but when removed to a container on its own it will bulk up and be fine. I've seen them worse than yours and recover just fine. So I'm with Shawn on this one. I think you've got 2 of one sex, one of which is intimidating the other.


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Just an udpdate. It's been about 5 days since I put the Varadero in quarantine. He's got quite a number of springtails and I dust a couple fruit flies for him to eat. He doesn't seem to move around much. Maybe because he's in a small container. And he's gaining weight for sure. But I think it's hard to tell depending on the angle you look at him, because he's really black. It's like wearing black makes you lose 15 pounds, maybe for him he can also look a little less healthy.


















Anyway, he seems to be doing well, and really wants to be put back in a bigger tank. But I still haven't seem him catch a fly since he's been in quarantine.









Now I got all freaked Saturday and separated all my 3rd wheels, based on sleeping arrangements. But I have to say, the other third wheels are really fat. Could the males be sleeping near each other and the females in a different place? Hard to sex these guys.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think he *is* putting on weight.


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

He is looking much better. I wouldn't bother too much with ff's yet. As he recovers a little more, he will gain more strength and will eventually take the ffs. Make sure he does have plenty of springtails. Looking good.


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Quick update on my Varadero. After 17 days he appears to be doing much better.








I have seen him eating springtails over and over and over again, but still have never caught him eating fruit flies. I've got him in a rather moldy tank which is empty because I thought it was going to make other frogs sick. But since turning off the waterfall the mold has subsided and is now constantly covered in springtails. So the Varadero is pretty happy and appears healthy. He's not slugish like he used to be.

I still have no idea where to put him. I assume I can't put him back with the other Varadero. But thanks everyone for the help in getting this little dude back to good health.

Justin


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

konton said:


> Quick update on my Varadero. After 17 days he appears to be doing much better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll give him a home if you don't want him any more.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ya I wouldn't put him back with the others, but glad to see its doing well. You could make a cheap viv out of a sterilite container or something. Might not be pretty but it will work. It can be worth having a spare frog around for later trades or if something happens to one of the frogs in you main pair or group. Always nice to have a ready replacement on hand if misfortune strikes


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Not as a medical diagnosis but something to keep in mind, increased stress can result in an increased need for vitamin A (as retinyl palmitate not beta carotene) and other vitamins. If the frog was showing symptoms of hypoviitaminosis of A, then it would have issues capturing flies... 
If you have not seen it capturing dusted feeders, now that is is getting back to weight, I would make it a priority to get it back onto dusted feeders as a lack of sufficient vitamins can affect many different systems including the immune system. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Even if you can get it to try and take flies, but he spits them out, you are still getting some vitamins to him. If it is an A issue, you could try a human grade. 
Here is the one that Ed usually recommends. solaray - emulsified dry vitamin a, 25000 iu- 60 count


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Ed...I can't find your post, but did you recommend a once a month dusting of retinyl palmitate as part of a routine supplementation program?

David


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Have you found a source that is in the free powder form so that you don't have to open each capsule?



Pumilo said:


> Even if you can get it to try and take flies, but he spits them out, you are still getting some vitamins to him. If it is an A issue, you could try a human grade.
> Here is the one that Ed usually recommends. solaray - emulsified dry vitamin a, 25000 iu- 60 count


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Thanks! I haven't seen him eat fruit flies mainly because he's got so many springtails around him. I've actually watched him eat 25 in a row. I tried to record it, but he get's annoyed when I'm close with a macro lens. I'll have to move him to a new tank to test him out on fruit flies. I'm still debating this.

Justin


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dmartin72 said:


> Ed...I can't find your post, but did you recommend a once a month dusting of retinyl palmitate as part of a routine supplementation program?
> 
> David


Hi Dave,

There are recommendations for dusting with it up to 4 times a month but a lot of people use it between once to twice a month. There is still tweaking going on with this aspect of supplements as the supplements are getting tweaked and some now not only include retinyl palimiatate but other carotenoids that are pre-vitamin A for amphibians so that recommendation may change with time. 
As a purely anecdotal comment, frogs that are showing issues (poor fertility, SLS froglets, trouble capturing prey) with hypovitaminosis of A, may not respond rapidly to just dusting with the common supplements and a regimen that includes retinyl palmitate may be required for at least a couple of months before symptoms begin to resolve. 


Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

konton said:


> Quick update on my Varadero. After 17 days he appears to be doing much better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, glad to see you brought him back from the edge Justin! After looking at the initial picture I didn't think you had much of a chance... good job!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

dmartin72 said:


> Have you found a source that is in the free powder form so that you don't have to open each capsule?


I have not. I haven't picked mine up yet, actually. I did some online searching and found that they have this exact type at Vitamin Cottage right up the street from me but just haven't got up there yet. We have decided to give it a try as our Iquitos seem to be laying too many bad eggs. We thought they might still be a bit young but figure we'll give it a shot. 
Remember that contact with air oxidizes vitamins so the capsules will keep your vit A fresh and potent, longer.


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

JL-Exotics said:


> Wow, glad to see you brought him back from the edge Justin! After looking at the initial picture I didn't think you had much of a chance... good job!


Thanks. So far he's in the cylinder and doing well. But I'd like to get him into a 15 gallon ASAP. At least he look like a male. The other two look like they are female, but if that's true I don't understand how he got so stressed out.

Justin


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

31 days later. The varadero seems to be doing fine and is actually a little plum around the edges while looking at him from above. I've decided to move him back to the 15 gallon with the other two varadero today and see how he reacts. I haven't seen the varaderos interact yet, but I did see him eat a dusted fruit fly while sitting on this leaf. First time I've had visual confirmation he's eating normally again.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yay! Great to hear


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Excellent Excellent Excellent! I love to read about success stories like this. Very nice job.


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## Gumby (May 27, 2010)

Im glad you brought him back. I've done the same with an Auratus of mine. Had 2 super skinny frogs, one died  , the other is now plump and happy  Glad to see he bounced back!


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