# First Micro Orchid & Microgramma Advice



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

I attended the Mid Hudson Reptile Expo yesterday. It was my first show and I enjoyed it quite a bit. I found a 18x18x36 Exo terra at a great price for my next build and some cool plants.

Would it be a bad idea to bleach dip them after soaking in water for about 10 mins since they are very sensitive? Also on the Microgramma, could I cut that long rhizome to propagate it or should I wait for it to grow in more?

Microgramma vacciniifolia








Masdevallia floribunda










Ricky


----------



## Waking in nature (Nov 28, 2021)

Since you got them yesterday I would let the plants rest in for 1 - 2 weeks before doing that.


----------



## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

I would just let the microgramma grow like that. The orchid is mounted. Do you plan to keep it on that mount? 

I don't bleach dip anything. I may be a fool. But, I'm a fool with a good track record.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

bulbophyllum said:


> I would just let the microgramma grow like that. The orchid is mounted. Do you plan to keep it on that mount?
> 
> I don't bleach dip anything. I may be a fool. But, I'm a fool with a good track record.


I plan on taking them both off the mounts at some point for my next build. I was thinking before adding them do a bleach dip to ensure no pests. I got them both from Vivariums in the Mist.

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

In my experience, those plants would be iffy to bleach dip (the Masdevallia more so than the Microgramma). The safest option would be to grow both out in quarantine until you can divide/take a cutting, and try bleach dipping the cuttings. If you do that, have a tiny fan running 24/7 or the Masdie will rot in your quarantine bin. You could cut the Microgramma now, but make sure you have a few leaves on the cut section.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

On second thought, taking into account that it sounds like this is your first pleurothallid, it may not be realistic to keep it alive in a quarantine bin, much less expect it to grow enough to divide. You could divide it now, which would leave you with 2 plants with about 10 leaves each. It’s a little small but doable.

Another option, less safe though, would be to bare root it, soak it and thoroughly inspect for any little critters. Look up what common plant pests look like in all stages. Bake the mount it was on, I do 300F for 1 hour. Then re-mount it (when the mount has completely cooled) and place it in a tank without frogs, far away from frogs, for long enough for any chytrid to die (I think it was 7 weeks) before adding any frogs to the tank.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Taking into account that it sounds like this is your first pleurothallid, it may not be realistic to keep it alive in a quarantine bin, much less expect it to grow enough to divide. You could divide it now, which would leave you with 2 plants with about 10 leaves each. It’s a little small but doable.
> 
> Another option, less safe though, would be to bare root it, soak it and thoroughly inspect for any little critters. Look up what common plant pests look like in all stages. Bake the mount it was on, I do 300F for 1 hour. Then re-mount it (when the mount has completely cooled) and place it in a tank without frogs, far away from frogs, for long enough for any chytrid to die (I think it was 7 weeks) before adding any frogs to the tank.


Well, I did not really expect to be able to divide the miniature orchid. I was thinking it would be easier to divide the Microgramma. I can leave the orchid alone.

From what you mentioned I will not have a good time trying to grow these plants in a quarantine bin unless there is some sort of circulation fan. I don't have a fan available currently, but if necessary I could purchase one. Having some passive ventilation in the bin would not work?

Ricky


----------



## Gemma (Jan 25, 2020)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Well, I did not really expect to be able to divide the miniature orchid. I was thinking it would be easier to divide the Microgramma. I can leave the orchid alone.
> 
> From what you mentioned I will not have a good time trying to grow these plants in a quarantine bin unless there is some sort of circulation fan. I don't have a fan available currently, but if necessary I could purchase one. Having some passive ventilation in the bin would not work?
> 
> Ricky


I find Microgramma does fine without a fan but definitely needs passive ventilation. I also find its best to encourage lots of new growth in the bin before taking cuttings, this in my experience tends to hold the plant back somewhat. They also dislike wet rhizomes for any length of time, just a case of finding that balance.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Having some passive ventilation in the bin would not work?


It will not work for the Masdevallia


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> It will not work for the Masdevallia


Ok I will buy a fan and just have it blow onto the plants inside the bin?

Ricky


----------



## jibby (Dec 17, 2020)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Ok I will buy a fan and just have it blow onto the plants inside the bin?


You don't necessarily want the fan blowing directly on an orchid as high airflow could dry it out too much. Instead, try to position the fan somehow so that it will circulate air inside your bin. Also, multiple ventilation holes will be important so you can cycle air (fresh air in, stale air out). I would suggest a small computer fan. They can be found fairly cheap online.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

jibby said:


> You don't necessarily want the fan blowing directly on an orchid as high airflow could dry it out too much. Instead, try to position the fan somehow so that it will circulate air inside your bin. Also, multiple ventilation holes will be important so you can cycle air (fresh air in, stale air out). I would suggest a small computer fan. They can be found fairly cheap online.


Thanks I ordered some Froskr 4000 RPM fans.

I will keep an eye on the orchid and hopefully it survives until that arrives.

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Thanks I ordered some Froskr 4000 RPM fans.


I’ve been using Coolerguys IP67 fans which come in a few sizes and are resistant to humidity, but those Froskr ones actually look nice and I might try them. USB plug means you don’t have to do any wiring, which is simpler.

Until the fan comes, open the bin with the orchid in it daily to give it some fresh air, and make sure water doesn’t stand on its leaves.


----------



## StephanieInSaintPaul (Oct 13, 2021)

Imatreewaterme said:


> I plan on taking them both off the mounts at some point for my next build. I was thinking before adding them do a bleach dip to ensure no pests. I got them both from Vivariums in the Mist.
> 
> Ricky





Harpspiel said:


> On second thought, taking into account that it sounds like this is your first pleurothallid, it may not be realistic to keep it alive in a quarantine bin, much less expect it to grow enough to divide. You could divide it now, which would leave you with 2 plants with about 10 leaves each. It’s a little small but doable.
> 
> Another option, less safe though, would be to bare root it, soak it and thoroughly inspect for any little critters. Look up what common plant pests look like in all stages. Bake the mount it was on, I do 300F for 1 hour. Then re-mount it (when the mount has completely cooled) and place it in a tank without frogs, far away from frogs, for long enough for any chytrid to die (I think it was 7 weeks) before adding any frogs to the tank.


Masdevallia floribunda requires cool nights - 55-60, so may not do too well. Do not recommend any Masdevallia as a starting plants - they are touchy.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

StephanieInSaintPaul said:


> Masdevallia floribunda requires cool nights - 55-60, so may not do too well.


Why do you say that? Floribunda is a warm grower that should not need a large night temp drop, although it will depend somewhat on which clone/locality where this one was originally gathered.


----------



## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Harpspiel said:


> Why do you say that? Floribunda is a warm grower that should not need a large night temp drop, although it will depend somewhat on which clone/locality where this one was originally gathered.


Yeah, floribunda should be pretty flexible temp wise. But, I have found masdevallias harder to grow then many other orchids in the pleuro alliance. But, for a long time I did not use fans in my tanks and ran them with little air flow.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

bulbophyllum said:


> But, for a long time I did not use fans in my tanks and ran them with little air flow.


While frogs do not need active air circulation if the tank has good passive circulation/ventilation, most orchids really benefit from a fan circulating air. In my paludarium (no frogs) I have passive ventilation via low front and top vents, but I also have a fan running 24/7 solely to circulate air, and this has really helped my pleurothallids. I started out mounting fans near the top, which pulled in more house air than necessary and dried things out, but now I mount fans near the bottom of the tank where previously I was having mold issues. I find that particularly the genus Pleurothallis hates stagnant air and standing water on its leaves.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Hi guys how does this look?

As you can see I have a yellow leaf. I am hoping it is just acclimating from when I bought it.









Can anyone ID the jewel orchid?

It is a little leggy I am considering chopping the top below a node later on and rooting it in water. The stem should start new growth I hope.

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Put the Masdie mount upright rather than laying down, it will dry off faster that way.

The jewel looks like some kind of hybrid involving Anoectochilus to me, maybe a Dossinochilus, but Anoectochilus is extremely variable, so it's hard to say exactly. I'm not sure if the leafless stem will grow back leaves if you chop the top off - good chance it will, but I haven't tried that. However, if you replant the top it will just get leggy again. In this case it's not leggy due to low light, jewels are just really leggy plants. They tend to fall over and ramble across the ground, rooting at various nodes and losing lower leaves as they grow. I have adjusted my perspective and now find it charming, but I thought it was an eyesore at first.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Put the Masdie mount upright rather than laying down, it will dry off faster that way.
> 
> The jewel looks like some kind of hybrid involving Anoectochilus to me, maybe a Dossinochilus, but Anoectochilus is extremely variable, so it's hard to say exactly. I'm not sure if the leafless stem will grow back leaves if you chop the top off - good chance it will, but I haven't tried that. However, if you replant the top it will just get leggy again. In this case it's not leggy due to low light, jewels are just really leggy plants. They tend to fall over and ramble across the ground, rooting at various nodes and losing lower leaves as they grow. I have adjusted my perspective and now find it charming, but I thought it was an eyesore at first.


Thanks. I will get it upright. 

Would running the fan when my lights are on (8AM to 10PM) be good, or 24h?

Should I mist the bin daily?

On the jewel orchid, perhaps I will wait a bit until it gets more growth then chop it when it can have additional leaves to support itself.

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Would running the fan when my lights are on (8AM to 10PM) be good, or 24h?
> 
> Should I mist the bin daily?


Either is fine. You don't want water sitting on leaves overnight.

Mist when moss on the mounts is just slightly damp to the touch, not crunchy but not glistening wet - it's hard to describe moisture levels. That may be every other day, it may be once or twice a week. Aim for the moss and roots, not for the leaves, and mist until they are dripping wet. Don't soak the jewel orchid more than once a week.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Ok I need to purge this masdevallia of pests I just saw it had a snail on it... Uhg wow.









I should keep my bin far away from my vivarium right?

Ricky


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Would the Microgramma do well in this spot? Just to the left of the cork, going up vertically.

I was thinking mount with toothpicks and a little bit of sphagnum.









Ricky


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

I added it hopefully it won't die.


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I've had great success growing_ Microgramma vaccinofolia_ not epiphytically, but having it root into the soil but have had very little success having it root into a background when attempted epiphytically.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I've had great success growing_ Microgramma vaccinofolia_ not epiphytically, but having it root into the soil but have had very little success having it root into a background when attempted epiphytically.


I also grow Microgrammas in soil. If you're trying to grow those little vining ferns epiphytically, it might be possible but can be hard to keep them wet enough for roots to grow.


----------



## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I tend to be successful growing them epiphytically on treefern panel; it takes a while for them to get going -- they're generally misted heavily and then dry out before getting hit again but the panel remains damp. M. vacciniifolia in particular hasn't actually hasn't given me much growth (although that one is on a mossy stump), but some undescribed Peruvian and Ecuadorian species have done well on treefern.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Dang! I purchased it under the impression I could grow it Epiphytically. I am going to keep a close eye on it and if I start seeing issues I could try relocating it into the substrate. 

Thanks for the pointers everyone.

Ricky


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Dang! I purchased it under the impression I could grow it Epiphytically. I am going to keep a close eye on it and if I start seeing issues I could try relocating it into the substrate.
> 
> Thanks for the pointers everyone.
> 
> Ricky


You can, it just needs a ton of humidity, IME, to get growing that way. Grown against the substrate it will happily climb up the side of the tank and cover the side/back.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

My orchid has not died but some of the leaves are looking a little rough. The first photo I think was because the leaf was stuck under another one and moisture was trapped.
Does the second/third photo look like damage caused by snails?
I have been making sure to mist the moss and avoid the leaves, and I did notice some new growth coming out.

























Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

The leaves look dehydrated, which could be due to underwatering or could possibly be due to root rot. Can you get a clear picture of the mount with the moss on it? And in these pics, have you just watered it?


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> The leaves look dehydrated, which could be due to underwatering or could possibly be due to root rot. Can you get a clear picture of the mount with the moss on it? And in these pics, have you just watered it?


Yea, I had just misted it. With the circulation fan the moss dries out pretty quickly.

































Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

That moss looks really degraded, which might impact its ability to hold moisture. If it were my orchid, I would bare root it gently, throw out the moss, bake the mount, and soak the plant in alum for 24 hours to kill any snails/snail eggs. Then I would re-mount it with a fresh pad of sphagnum under the roots. There's no conclusion in the orchid world re: roots under sphagnum vs roots over sphagnum, with vocal proponents in each camp, but I'm "camp over sphagnum". I lay a pad down on the mount, then lay the roots over that, and if it's a particularly moisture-loving plant I twine a strand or two over some of the roots, then wrap the whole thing in fishing line. Something stretchy would be better, but fishing line works as long as you don't draw it tight enough to cut off roots.

Having the roots over the sphagnum lets you keep an eye on them, and for most pleurothallids they should go from bright green right after watering, to almost-but-not-quite white before you water again. You also don't want a huge amount of algae growth (a little on the sphagnum is OK), and you want to watch for white mold or brown rot which will indicate insufficient air flow.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> That moss looks really degraded, which might impact its ability to hold moisture. If it were my orchid, I would bare root it gently, throw out the moss, bake the mount, and soak the plant in alum for 24 hours to kill and snails/snail eggs. Then I would re-mount it with a fresh pad of sphagnum under the roots. There's no conclusion in the orchid world re: roots under sphagnum vs roots over sphagnum, with vocal proponents in each camp, but I'm "camp over sphagnum". I lay a pad down on the mount, then lay the roots over that, and if it's a particularly moisture-loving plant I twine a strand or two over some of the roots, then wrap the whole thing in fishing line. Something stretchy would be better, but fishing line works as long as you don't draw it tight enough to cut off roots.


Cheers!

I am not familiar with using alum for pests. Could you elaborate on that process?

Also does a plank work better than using a cork bark mount? I have plenty of cork available.

Thanks for your help!

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Cheers!
> 
> I am not familiar with using alum for pests. Could you elaborate on that process?
> 
> ...


You can buy alum at a grocery store and I use 3 TBSP/gallon in R/O water. The aquatics world says it will kill both snails and snail eggs (I haven't personally confirmed this), and it's gentler on orchids than bleach. I have seen it kill some sort of red aquatic worm, very thoroughly. You could also bleach it by soaking it in R/O for 20 minutes, then dipping in a 5% bleach solution for up to 5 minutes (watch it the whole time, any translucence indicates bleach damage and shows up pretty much immediately).

This year I have concluded I hate planks and much prefer cork. The ridges really give lots of nice moist places for roots to grow.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Oh and if you don't have fishing line, lots of things would work. I've used a rubber band in a pinch, and polyester thread works fine - hopefully the roots will anchor the plant to the mount before the thread degrades.


----------



## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> This year I have concluded I hate planks and much prefer cork. The ridges really give lots of nice moist places for roots to grow.


Apologies for sidetracking, but I thought this said "I hate plants" for a moment, and I find it extremely funny that it's a statement I could absolutely believe from my experience with dedicated horticulture people, haha.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

ParrotAlex said:


> Apologies for sidetracking, but I thought this said "I hate plants" for a moment, and I find it extremely funny that it's a statement I could absolutely believe from my experience with dedicated horticulture people, haha.


I accidentally wrote plants and fortunately caught it before posting the reply. I do have moments of "what in the world am I doing with this many plants", inevitably followed by "at this point, a few more won't even make a dent, right?"


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> You can buy alum at a grocery store and I use 3 TBSP/gallon in R/O water. The aquatics world says it will kill both snails and snail eggs (I haven't personally confirmed this), and it's gentler on orchids than bleach. I have seen it kill some sort of red aquatic worm, very thoroughly. You could also bleach it by soaking it in R/O for 20 minutes, then dipping in a 5% bleach solution for up to 5 minutes (watch it the whole time, any translucence indicates bleach damage and shows up pretty much immediately).
> 
> This year I have concluded I hate planks and much prefer cork. The ridges really give lots of nice moist places for roots to grow.


Ok so I am soaking it. I am planning on doing a 5% bleach so I am going to do longer than 20 minutes.

I think the plant had suffered from root rot, but as of recently I think it has been too dry as you mentioned since the sphagnum decayed.

Here is the exposed root system. I was not able to get every spec of sphagnum since I did not want to hurt the plant.









I noticed the root systems seem to have like a shell covering them and inside there is a smaller root. Is that normal?

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Wait, you're going to do longer than 20 minutes? I said at a 5% solution, do _up to_ 5 minutes and then any longer, monitor carefully minute by minute.

Orchid roots have an inner section called the vascular cylinder and an outer section called velamen. If the velamen is mushy and peeling away from the vascular cylinder, that means the root is dead (likely rotted) and should be trimmed back.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Wait, you're going to do longer than 20 minutes? I said at a 5% solution, do _up to_ 5 minutes and then any longer, monitor carefully minute by minute.
> 
> Orchid roots have an inner section called the vascular cylinder and an outer section called velamen. If the velamen is mushy and peeling away from the vascular cylinder, that means the root is dead (likely rotted) and should be trimmed back.


I meant with just water to hydrate it before the bleach.  

Ricky


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Orchid roots have an inner section called the vascular cylinder and an outer section called velamen. If the velamen is mushy and peeling away from the vascular cylinder, that means the root is dead (likely rotted) and should be trimmed back.


When you say trimmed back do you mean the whole root or only the mushy velamen?

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Imatreewaterme said:


> When you say trimmed back do you mean the whole root or only the mushy velamen?
> 
> Ricky


Velamen and and vascular cylinder, back to the point where they are firm and connected.


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Velamen and and vascular cylinder, back to the point where they are firm and connected.


Yikes nearly all of the root system is ruined. Does it even have a chance? You sure I should say goodbye to the vascular cylinder?









Will the plant be able to take the 5% bleach dip? Will that will help stop the root rot also?

The plant seems to have split into two smaller plants.

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

That actually explains the wrinkled leaves, it had no water uptake system left. The vascular cylinder without velamen is not a functioning root, a healthy root is thick, white and firm with a green tip. You're going to have a rough time with this - from here on out you need very fresh sphagnum that never dries out but also is never soaking wet, with high humidity and good airflow, and if you can manage that it has a good chance of developing new roots.


----------



## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Ok so I am soaking it. I am planning on doing a 5% bleach so I am going to do longer than 20 minutes.
> 
> I think the plant had suffered from root rot, but as of recently I think it has been too dry as you mentioned since the sphagnum decayed.
> 
> ...


Your roots are pretty much toast. Nearly every one is very visibly losing velamin.

Now, I'm not an expert on that particular genus of orchids, but IME most orchids can bounce back eventually from total root loss so long as the plant is adequately supported until it can begin new growth. It will need even higher than normal humidity to limit transpiration, and you should expect to lose some leaves. Regular soaking of the mounted plant (make sure it dries off after) also helps. Basically, you are trying to keep it from drying out to death until roots can grow back. 

On sympodial orchids like yours, new roots will generally come from new growth, either as the new growth emerges or as the newest growth matures. Very new roots usually can't start taking up water until they're sufficiently long (on a small species like that, probably about an inch), but if you're soaking periodically you'll know when they start absorbing water because they'll turn from white to bright green when wet. If you can keep it alive until then, you're pretty much good.


----------



## BrianTL (Sep 13, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> You could also bleach it by soaking it in R/O for 20 minutes, then dipping in a 5% bleach solution for up to 5 minutes (watch it the whole time, any translucence indicates bleach damage and shows up pretty much immediately).


Is bleach damage typically a death sentence or can plants make a recovery? 

Just got my first plants so this thread has been pretty helpful in that way... but it's also made me realize I damaged some of mine a bit. Hoping they'll be ok


----------



## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

BrianTL said:


> Is bleach damage typically a death sentence or can plants make a recovery?
> 
> Just got my first plants so this thread has been pretty helpful in that way... but it's also made me realize I damaged some of mine a bit. Hoping they'll be ok


I'll let you know in a few days if my plant makes it. Although if my plant dies it might not be because of the bleach.

Ricky


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

BrianTL said:


> Is bleach damage typically a death sentence or can plants make a recovery?
> 
> Just got my first plants so this thread has been pretty helpful in that way... but it's also made me realize I damaged some of mine a bit. Hoping they'll be ok


It depends on the extent of the damage and the type of plant. I left some Episcia cuttings in bleach for too long recently, and when I took them out they had lost all turgidity, which I think indicated that they didn't have functioning cell walls anymore...in any case, those were goners. If there's still some firm and green tissue, there's hope.

Oh to answer an earlier question, yes, I believe that bleaching will help prevent fungal infections and rot, but Masdevallias are relatively sturdy so I wouldn't worry too much about rot as long as there's good airflow and not excessive moisture.


----------

