# Micro fauna for water?



## John-Michael (Sep 21, 2013)

Springtales are part of the viv to maintain soil quality, break down waste, and are potentially food to small frogs. Are there microfauna that could be added to the water that would do the same? (I am considering raising some African Dwarf Frogs.)


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Hyalella azteca, Gammarus sp., Daphnia sp., Ceriodaphnia sp., Asellus sp., Palaemonetes sp., Lumbriculus variegatus, Chironomus tetans should all do well.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

John-Michael said:


> Springtales are part of the viv to maintain soil quality, break down waste, and are potentially food to small frogs. Are there microfauna that could be added to the water that would do the same? (I am considering raising some African Dwarf Frogs.)


 Aquatic plants are your only partial solution. Your aquatic frogs will produce waste (ammonia) that will be converted to nitrites and then to nitrates (commonly referred to as the nitrogen cycle). The most common way to remove nitrates is by doing regular partial water changes. Aquatic plants will remove nitrates, but even if you have enough aquatic plants to keep your nitrates at zero (which is very possible), it still benefits your aquatic frogs if you do a water change, as there will still be dissolved organic compounds (DOC's) that need to be removed. These DOC's do build up and do not make for a healthy ecosystem.

I owned a planted tank that always was at zero nitrates. That being said, after a water change, it was obvious to see both the fish and the plants perk up and look their best.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Zero from your standard nitrogen tests you can get at home will not be an actual zero.
Measuring ionic species in low ppm quantities is hard, even for analytical labs

I do gas chromatography, high pressure liquid chromatography and ion chromatography at work, and measuring down to an absolute zero concentration is exceedingly difficult, requiring very expensive equipment and very thorough and precise analytical work

Your "zero" is likely over 50ppm


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Zero from your standard nitrogen tests you can get at home will not be an actual zero.
> Measuring ionic species in low ppm quantities is hard, even for analytical labs
> 
> I do gas chromatography, high pressure liquid chromatography and ion chromatography at work, and measuring down to an absolute zero concentration is exceedingly difficult, requiring very expensive equipment and very thorough and precise analytical work
> ...


 hehe. I bow to your expertise.

Let's just say, that the nitrates were low enough that many would say that a water change is not needed, but that I would strongly disagree.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Well.....I wasn't trying to be a jerk, merely adding to what you were saying. 
Even though your at home test kits say no change necessary, doing a change is just good husbandry.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Well.....I wasn't trying to be jerk...


 I did not think that for even a moment.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

If wikipedia and it's sources are correct, daphnia might actually eat cytrid spores. Daphnia magna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

hypostatic said:


> If wikipedia and it's sources are correct, daphnia might actually eat cytrid spores. Daphnia magna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



hopefully you don't have chytrid spores in the water.If you do the daphnia are going to be the only pets in the tank anyway


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

wellllllll the point that i was trying to make is that they seem useful to have lol


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## John-Michael (Sep 21, 2013)

Thank you for the information.
I see that daphnia can be purchased.
How would one go about getting a hold of Hyaella azteca?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

A clean source of these would be helpful...am wary of getting them from an aquarium store...thanks


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Amphipods:
Amphipods (Gammarus), Living | Carolina.com

Daphnia:
Daphnia | Carolina.com

Copepods:
Copepods | Carolina.com

Aquatic isos:
Aquatic Isopods, Living | Carolina.com


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Hyalella and most of the organisms I listed can be purchased near you through Environmental Consulting and Testing in Superior.

Environmental Consulting and Testing, Inc. | Our Organisms

I have supplied my lab through them in the past, but their prices were relatively expensive. The upside is that organisms purchased through them will be parasite and disease free.

Other clean sources include:

Aquatic Research Organisms Aquatic Research Organisms - Prices
Aquatic Biosystems Products - Aquatic BioSystems
Sachs Systems Aquaculture Fresh Water Invertebrates at Sachs Systems Aquaculture
Daphnia, Gammarus, Lumbiculus, and copepods can also often be found cheap on Aquabid. 
AquaBid.com - Invertebrates Auctions - Thu Jan 9 13:03:26 2014

Another alternative is to collect them yourself. In the Green Bay area, I have collected both Hyalella and Gammarus inlarge numbers in the local streams and small ponds. Cool headwater areas are best. 

As far as scuds go, Hyalella are much easier to establish and culture than Gammarus. Gammarus tend to reproduce much more slowly than Hyalella and don't seem to acclimate to captive conditions as well. Once established, both will do fine.

I work extensively with aquatic macroinvertebrates on a daily basis, so if you have any more questions feel free to ask.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

So, twice today I've tried to post a list of suppliers of aquatic macroinvertebrates, but each time I get a message that says it has gone to a moderator for approval. WTF?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

edwardsatc said:


> So, twice today I've tried to post a list of suppliers of aquatic macroinvertebrates, but each time I get a message that says it has gone to a moderator for approval. WTF?


At the bottom of the homepage, see which moderators are online and PM them about it. Someone should revolve the problem quickly


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Problem solved. 
Some of the filters put in place to catch spam sometimes catch also the good guys (often due to several links on the same post). 
Back on topic. Sorry OP.


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## Evan Keller (Dec 4, 2008)

Most of the microorganisms in question here are N.A. cool water stream species, excluding the daphnia. I would not think they would necessarily thrive in a vivarium setting with limited water space as well as moving fresh cold water. Possibly the freshwater worm species could do well, worms have a hardy tendency, however daphnia are typically found in somewhat still deeper waters where they can migrate up and down the water column. 

They are worth a try however. As the saying goes Science requires sacrifice....


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I wouldn't hesitate to give them a try. Unless they _require_ cooler temperatures to survive/breed I don't seem them as being temperate being an issue. The white folsomia candida springtails that we use in our vivs are temperate, and they seem to thrive under those conditions


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Evan Keller said:


> Most of the microorganisms in question here are N.A. cool water stream species, excluding the daphnia. I would not think they would necessarily thrive in a vivarium setting with limited water space as well as moving fresh cold water. Possibly the freshwater worm species could do well, worms have a hardy tendency, however daphnia are typically found in somewhat still deeper waters where they can migrate up and down the water column.
> 
> They are worth a try however. As the saying goes Science requires sacrifice....


The only ones that should be affected by temps encountered in the typical vivarium/paludarium are Gammarus species from northern latitudes or isolated spring fed environments. The rest are standard laboratory test organisms that have broad distributions, tolerate a wide temperature ranges, and should be fine in a vivarium setting. I maintain most of these in culture at 23-29C (73-84F). In research that investigates the combined effects of temperature and toxicants, I have found that most will tolerate surprisingly high temps as long as dissolved oxygen is maintained at a reasonable level. 

Water chemistry would be of greater concern due to waste generated by frogs and leaching of soil/organic material. Daphnids would be the least tolerant of poor water conditions, and amphipods and chironomids are the most tolerant.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

JPccusa said:


> Problem solved.
> Some of the filters put in place to catch spam sometimes catch also the good guys (often due to several links on the same post).
> Back on topic. Sorry OP.


Thanks JP. I figured it was probably due to multiple links.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

edwardsatc said:


> Hyalella and most of the organisms I listed can be purchased near you through Environmental Consulting and Testing in Superior.
> 
> Environmental Consulting and Testing, Inc. | Our Organisms
> 
> ...


One correction. i gave the wrong link for Aquabid. I should have linked to live food AquaBid.com - Live Aquarium Food Auctions - Thu Jan 9 20:34:14 2014


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## John-Michael (Sep 21, 2013)

I think the 2000 ml (about half a gallon) with over 1000 of the little critters may be more than I am looking for. Is there a source for them in smaller ( and less expensive) quantities?


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## DarkElvis (Apr 7, 2013)

Personally I think you're over thinking this. Unless you're gonna have a deep substrate area in your water feature and it's a HUGE tank, it's a waste. Filtration will kill off most of them. They will get chewed up by the impellers in pumps or sifted out. You'll never have a breeding stock substantial enough to see benefits from. 

You need plants, and a strong Bactria colony. That's it. Balance accordingly. Chemical media can help you cheat a little bit if you are having trouble maintaining water quality. 

Now if it's for fun as an experiment....go for it. I personally don't see much gain from it unless you're trying to feed fish fry


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