# Hot new imports



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

A frog is a frog. I understand law of supply and demand, and some frogs are more expensive because of supply and demand. I get that.
I have never saw a pumilio that I wanted. To me they are plain looking. But they are a popular frog. I have a few questions. No offense to anyone?

1. Is the appeal the price of offspring?
2. Are old lines less popular because there are more in hobby and they fetch less?
3. I know the market allows it, but who drives up the price, Importers or Exporters? I know the collectors in the field aren't paid much for the frogs. 

Again, not bashing anyone, There are frogs I would pay much more for, but with all the morphs of all the species available, why are a bunch of new people in the hobby wanting the new pumilio right off the bat?


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

The price of pums is because of there really slow breeding. They don't breed like dendrobates, we have to leave the eggs in the tank and the female has to feed them infertile eggs. Because of that method of breeding, production is really slow. I think finding a couple froglets a month is good production.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

They are also expensive is because they are so dang pretty and (almost) everybody wants some. IMO. Add that to their slow production rate and Ta-Dah, you have an expensive frog.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> I have never saw a pumilio that I wanted. To me they are plain looking.


One more thing. That is also your opinion and a lot of hobbyist think that pums are absolutely gorgeous (myself included). Oh well, everybody has there favorites.


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## fishieness (Jun 26, 2009)

I think there are a lot of different factors here, many of which you touched upon.
-There is certainly appeal in finding something that is hard to get. Whether it be that they aren't prolific or that they are a new morph, it doesn't matter, at least for the initial price. Look at veraderos and how expensive they were a few summers ago. Now I see them for sale for as low as 50 bucks because they breed like crazy. Most pumilos do not breed like that.
-One of the things that keeps the prices high is the ever-increasing localities. It keeps people's interests and if they have the same species as this new, hot locality, that association is enough to make even their frogs desirable.
-The price of the offspring definitely helps as well. But, at least for me, that thought is more justification as to why I can spend so much on a little tiny frog. I know I will at least be able to recoup the initial costs. Not looking to make a buck, but if I can get something I want and break even at the same time, why not?
-Importers, exporters, and breeders certainly help determine the price, but when it comes down to it, it's the buyer that determines the price. It all depends how quickly the breeder can sell them. If the breeder ends up with 20 froglets because no one wants to pay that price, the price will come down from that one individual breeder and the rest are likely to follow suit.

But it all comes down to preference. I've always liked small things more than large ones- frogs included. So I'm more into thumbnails and pums. That said, I've never really liked tincs. A few stand out, but they mostly look pretty much the same to me.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

frog dude said:


> One more thing. That is also your opinion and a lot of hobbyist think that pums are absolutely gorgeous (myself included). Oh well, everybody has there favorites.


I agree. I don't have any pumilio myself but I do have them on my wish list for some day. Cauchero, blue esperanza, cemetary bastis... many more as well. I agree that they are gorgeous. 

Some might take into consideration that their care is a little more for the experienced hobbiest due to breeding? I'm not sure if that bumps their price up more or not. 

I also don't see certain pumilio offered very often.. so I guess lower supply and average demand would be correct with those frogs.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> A frog is a frog. I understand law of supply and demand, and some frogs are more expensive because of supply and demand. I get that.
> I have never saw a pumilio that I wanted. To me they are plain looking. But they are a popular frog. I have a few questions. No offense to anyone?
> 
> 1. Is the appeal the price of offspring?
> ...



Scott I agree with a lot of your points. IMO most pumilio are pretty unappealing. I understand they are less work (raising tads) than Dendrobates but very few are pretty in my eyes.
1. Yes I think a lot of the appeal is the price. Let's face it, these are small, shy frogs. They aren't going to be as bold as some of the larger species. Yes I know there are exceptions, but generally shy. 
2. I don't know that old lines are less popular or fetch less money, but the new imports/locales are in higher demand because everyone what the new thing. I believe it's driven simply by the fact that it's newly imported.
3. Demand is driving up the price, and it's being driven up artificially I believe. If you look at how many imports are sitting unsold and in poor condition at the importers facility it should become clear that pumilio, and WC pumilio at that, is just a small niche within the dart frog hobby. 

Strictly imported way more pumilio than they can sell. This proves there is actually a finite market for these frogs. Right now the market is saturated, prices should be coming down. But because there are more pumilio available than ever before they are much more accessible to beginners. Beginners see the price attached to pums and they think owning pums will give them instant prestige within the hobby. These are probably the same hobbyists that get their first frogs and within a month have 3 more types and start giving advice despite having only kept frogs for a month. 

Just like the housing market one day the bubble will burst. There will be even more pumilio available and prices will come down drastically. 
Anyway like you Scott, I'm not bashing anyone. This is just what is going on with the pumilio market IMO.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Moriko said:


> I agree. I don't have any pumilio myself but I do have them on my wish list for some day. Cauchero, blue esperanza, cemetary bastis... many more as well. I agree that they are gorgeous.
> 
> Some might take into consideration that their care is a little more for the experienced hobbiest due to breeding? I'm not sure if that bumps their price up more or not.
> 
> I also don't see certain pumilio offered very often.. so I guess lower supply and average demand would be correct with those frogs.


Breeding, yes, and a few other factors. Male to male aggression can be vicious, and the problem with 4-5 moth old frogs dropping dead suddenly due to calcium deficiency (also known as MOODS). But I don't think that this directly influences high demand-high price in pums. Mainly just slow breeding.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Moriko said:


> I agree. I don't have any pumilio myself but I do have them on my wish list for some day. Cauchero, blue esperanza, cemetary bastis... many more as well. I agree that they are gorgeous.
> 
> Some might take into consideration that their care is a little more for the experienced hobbiest due to breeding? I'm not sure if that bumps their price up more or not.
> 
> I also don't see certain pumilio offered very often.. so I guess lower supply and average demand would be correct with those frogs.


Not true, there are more pumilio available today than at any other time. 
Prices will crash, and soon too


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I may be a BIT biased, but O. pumilio are awesome! Very few aren't bold, but I admit I'd like to see a couple of my frogs a little more.

As for the price. When you look into the effort to collect limited numbers of frogs from a particular locale, the price is very fair. Not only to the exporters have to pay their keep, but so do the importers, and the people who ultimately offer them. What if some of them die, who absorbs that cost? What about treatments? Testing? Caging? Oh, your fruit fly cultures crashed and you have to get a bunch sent to you overnight? 

The price is determined by a little bit of everyone. There becomes a price where it's not longer worth it to deal with them...at that price the margin is so low that it becomes too risky to offer these frogs. Plus, at lower costs, just how week do you think those frogs are treated according to one that goes for twice as much? 

As for the saturation of the pumilio market. Perhaps it's saturated at certain prices for certain locales, but the frogs continue to sell. There is also so much variation with a locale that certain colors/patterns are more in demand then others. There is a slow down during the summer, but I can promise that if I have certain locales at a certain price, they'll sell every time. Supply and demand. Really, I don't care, as long as I can enjoy some frogs in some beautifully planted enclosures, I'm happy.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Not true, there are more pumilio available today than at any other time.
> Prices will crash, and soon too


Being rather new.. only being around here a 7 months, I've only started to take notice of pums. I don't think that they are suited to me at this point because I'm still learning with the frogs that I have. I have glanced over the classifieds however.. just for information. When I see a lot of the ads they are mostly for sexed pairs, a couple of juvis, but not much more than that. While I do agree that there are numerous ads for them I meant in comparison to other ads where people have 10+ froglets for numerous frogs being sold at once. Although they are an established part of the hobby.. I still do not see them nearly as often as the others.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Not true, there are more pumilio available today than at any other time.
> Prices will crash, and soon too


It's not the ball python market! The cost of quite a few of these new locales is directly associated with the effort put into getting them. With some locales (Escudo) if the price starts going down, no more will come in because costs can't be covered. It's a very fast self correcting market, and the prices aren't as high (compared to the effort put into them) that people would imagine. Because of the quickness in the market, the prices will never crash. If supply gets too large or the demand to small, the sales/imports will stop and within a couple months it'll even out to where it should be. This makes sure the prices never get too high.

The only thing that can drop the price by a large degree is captive bred animals. Well....that hasn't happened yet and with the amount of time and few offspring, I don't think that will occur.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> 3. I know the market allows it, but who drives up the price, Importers or Exporters? I know the collectors in the field aren't paid much for the frogs.


From what I've read, it seems to me the biggest price jump happens at the exporters' end, since collectors are paid dirt for the frogs and importers (claim they) make pretty slim margins on the frogs (which can be like $100/frog).

I think it's also worth mentioning that pumilio is also the most commonly exported dart frog, and in the largest numbers. Therefore, if tyhe market was saturated you'd see the prices going down. Instead it seems (in the last 2-3 years) that prices have been going up.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

First, very few locales are $100 frog at the export end...very few. Those that are, only a small number of frogs come in, which keeps the cost of obtaining high. What then sucks is they may all nearly be male! I can think of a few locales where only 10-20 animals came in, and 3/4 were males. 

While I'm not completely familiar with the situation in Panama, there are not enough frogs being sent that there is much of a need to hire locales to collect the frogs. Pumilio are quite common, so the exporter likely has a small group of collectors to obtain them, as it would take just as many people to go pick them up as it would to spend a day or two collecting the frogs themselves. The exporters have to go pick up the frogs themselves as they can't easily fedex them to each other overnight. 

With a few exceptions, I still think the prices are fair. Especially when some locales only have 20-50 frogs coming in and one person may keep half of them. 




hypostatic said:


> From what I've read, it seems to me the biggest price jump happens at the exporters' end, since collectors are paid dirt for the frogs and importers (claim they) make pretty slim margins on the frogs (which can be like $100/frog).


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

I'll add my two cents on a couple things that have already been hit on.

First, I don't think the appeal is the price for new imports or rare frogs, it's the fact that they're just that, new and/or rare. If you look at the people that get their hands on these new, fresh imports first, they're not people running a frog business. They're not people that need the money by pumping out as many big-money offspring as they possibly can. They are hobbyists, usually with pretty impressive collections, that are always on the lookout for the new frog to work with. While I've never bought in to any of the new frogs on the market, I fully understand the urge to work with, and attempt to breed something that no one has ever had the opportunity to work with or breed before.

On the flip side, this can give people a black eye when the frogs brought in come from questionable origins and they buy regardless, seemingly throwing any ethical thought out the window. And from what I've seen, it seems like the obligates raise more questions than any other frogs in this aspect.

I've been in this hobby close to ten years, and pumilio are some of, if not my favorite frogs in the entire hobby. I enjoy the challenge of breeding and raising them, and I enjoy the fact that they're a frog that you really won't see flood the market and be impossible to sell or trade. That being said, I've been turned off from any new purchases for years because of all the nonsense surrounding them. All the talk of what import can be mixed with what, who's bringing them in legally and who's working with smuggled frogs, etc. It is frustrating to say the least, however, I fully understand the appeal and why people jump on all the new obligates coming into the hobby.

-Pat


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Also, don't forget these frogs are farmed   So that also adds in nearly another year of someone's expetise and effort.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I should add that my comments here are in regards to WC frogs coming in as farmed from Panama. The Costa Rica F1 frogs are a whole different ball game with higher overhead then the Panama frogs.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Reef_Haven said:


> Also, don't forget these frogs are farmed   So that also adds in nearly another year of someone's expetise and effort.


want to buy a bridge?


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Okay...so, while I don't buy the little frogs, I love to look at the pictures every once in a while...some of them are beautifully colored. Normally, I don't comment on them (because I know nothing), but curiosity has gotten the better of me and I just have to ask...

Is it a normal practice to call frogs that are farmed F1? I know when I see F1, I automatically think that these frogs were born and raised in captivity in much the same way that we all here are doing. But when I see Farm Raised, I am thinking that they have been born and raised out in the open where they can still contract everything that a freshly wild-caught frog can and can end up having a very difficult time adapting to the new conditions of living out life in a tank. So, to me, this seems very contradictory.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Scott Richardson said:


> want to buy a bridge?


I see what you did there .

Personally I am a huge fan of oophaga. I love the idea of the offspring's entire survival being in the parent's "hands". I am experiencing this first hand at the moment. My first pumilio eggs hatched a few days ago and unfortunately (to my wifes dismay) they are ignoring them. Dooming them to death and rendering me a helpless observer. But that is what makes them so fascinating to me. 

The new imports are awesome in my opinion but i wont be springing for any in the near future. While pumilio do tend to retain their value the prices will drop eventually. I also want to wait until i can purchase CB animals. By captive bred i mean bred by hobbyists in captivity in the states. 

The price stability on pumilio is a bit of a justification when buying them. Like stated before, i like knowing that i will be able to at least recoup the cost of the frogs themselves either through trades or sales of offspring. Is this a good enough reason to buy them? No, but it does help soften the blow. It definitely helps ease my family's concerns knowing i will be able to sell offspring.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

F1 is generally applied to frogs removed one generation from wild animals. So, if someone goes and collects some frogs, puts them in a captive enclosure, and resulting offspring would be F1. While disease can affect F1 frogs raised in outdoor enclosures, it can also just as easily affect captive bred in the USA frogs as well. 

I'm just curious, but what is the main problem with WC frogs? Parasites, chytrid, bacterial infections, stress? The main issue is inappropriate care during collection and transit, not being WC (when I see frogs in the wild, they are generally pretty healthy!). The same issues that affect WC animals do the same to captive bred animals kept under the same conditions. Remove them from these conditions and the issues are minimized, GREATLY. 



WendySHall said:


> Okay...so, while I don't buy the little frogs, I love to look at the pictures every once in a while...some of them are beautifully colored. Normally, I don't comment on them (because I know nothing), but curiosity has gotten the better of me and I just have to ask...
> 
> Is it a normal practice to call frogs that are farmed F1? I know when I see F1, I automatically think that these frogs were born and raised in captivity in much the same way that we all here are doing. But when I see Farm Raised, I am thinking that they have been born and raised out in the open where they can still contract everything that a freshly wild-caught frog can and can end up having a very difficult time adapting to the new conditions of living out life in a tank. So, to me, this seems very contradictory.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I would like to add that the old line blue jean prices are going to be taking a hit. The days of $700 for a pair are gone for awhile.

That other point I'd like to make is I don't think $100 per pumilio retail is the price threshold for being able to bring WC into the country because there are lots of other WC imported frogs that sell for cheap and its essentially the same process. Like lobster, I believe the distributors are making a healthy profit, and I am reminded by this of pics I've seen on another site of Strictly showing off imported pums resting on his Rolex!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frog dude said:


> The price of pums is because of there really slow breeding.


Actually we see a lot of reports about pairs laying fertile eggs repeatedly along the same schedule as non-obligate egg feeders. This is due to the fact that many if not most are obese and/or overfed allowing for rapid cycling of egg deposition.... including the fact that this is a complete opposite as to how they breed in the wild. 



frog dude said:


> They don't breed like dendrobates, we have to leave the eggs in the tank and the female has to feed them infertile eggs.


Just as a clarification point, breeding behavior is similar but not exactly the same... it is the tadpole care where the differences occur... As for having to leave the eggs in the tank, this is also untrue... If you are getting clutches at a good frequency, you could pull the excess clutches and feed the tadpoles yourself. This method has been done with excellent success by several breeders.... 




frog dude said:


> Because of that method of breeding, production is really slow. I think finding a couple froglets a month is good production.


Pumilio if housed and fed correctly are fairly prolific... not to the extent that obese tinctorious or other dendrobatids are but you should be getting more than a couple of froglets each month.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Moriko said:


> Some might take into consideration that their care is a little more for the experienced hobbiest due to breeding? I'm not sure if that bumps their price up more or not.


Actually, they shouldn't be any more or less difficult as long as you can produce feeders for the froglets... like springtails and dwarf isopods.... In the past, obligates were considered more for experienced people due to the fact that you needed to be able to supply sufficient small feeder invertebrates but this has changed with the advent of treating enclosures more like a ecology with the frogs as the top predators... 

If you can get well established frogs (wild caught or cb) they shouldn't be any more difficult than other dendrobatids... and in some ways can even be easier since they do all of the tadpole care.... 

The experienced designation is an anachronism... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frog dude said:


> Breeding, yes, and a few other factors. Male to male aggression can be vicious, and the problem with 4-5 moth old frogs dropping dead suddenly due to calcium deficiency (also known as MOODS). But I don't think that this directly influences high demand-high price in pums. Mainly just slow breeding.


I have significant doubts that it is calcium that is the issue.. The reason is because people increase the calcium without supplying D3 so the frog cannot metabolize the D3... The success using calcium glubionate/gluconate drops is more likely a result of increased caloric uptake getting them past a sensitive point... It is well established that calcium without D3 does not change blood calcium levels or calcification of the bones..... 

In general as we improve husbandry methods we see a significant decrease in the death of froglets before 5-6 months... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

oldlady25715 said:


> I would like to add that the old line blue jean prices are going to be taking a hit. The days of $700 for a pair are gone for awhile.
> 
> That other point I'd like to make is I don't think $100 per pumilio retail is the price threshold for being able to bring WC into the country because there are lots of other WC imported frogs that sell for cheap and its essentially the same process. Like lobster, I believe the distributors are making a healthy profit, and I am reminded by this of pics I've seen on another site of Strictly showing off imported pums resting on his Rolex!


What WC CITES frogs regularly go for less then $100 retail? Anyone? Unlike other frogs only a limited number can be exported. The permits cost money, take time, inspections, all sorts of fun. To do it correctly, I don't see how any CITES darts can be under $100 retail. Too much invested into it for the small amount that can be exported.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Ed said:


> If you are getting clutches at a good frequency, you could pull the excess clutches and feed the tadpoles yourself. This method has been done with excellent success by several breeders....


Just for clarification (since I have no experience with pumilio), what do you consider "excellent success"? From what I read on the boards quite recently by some breeders that have been attempting this, I don't think that they would use the word "excellent" to describe the successes that they've had...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> It's not the ball python market! The cost of quite a few of these new locales is directly associated with the effort put into getting them. With some locales (Escudo) if the price starts going down, no more will come in because costs can't be covered. It's a very fast self correcting market, and the prices aren't as high (compared to the effort put into them) that people would imagine. Because of the quickness in the market, the prices will never crash. If supply gets too large or the demand to small, the sales/imports will stop and within a couple months it'll even out to where it should be. This makes sure the prices never get too high.
> 
> The only thing that can drop the price by a large degree is captive bred animals. Well....that hasn't happened yet and with the amount of time and few offspring, I don't think that will occur.


I'm not sure I buy this analogy since when Panama first opened up and began exporting pumilio, the importers were charging depending on the morph as much as $450/frog or even forcing people to take auratus with the pumilio... The price has significantly dropped from then to the point where you can get many Panamanian pumilio for less than $65 at a standard wholesale rate and the jobber's price is going to be even lower.... 

And as for only captive bred animals being what drops the price to a large degree, this is flatly contradicted by the economic models... As an example, if this was true, we still wouldn't be importing bush ball python babies.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## nilraf (Mar 14, 2010)

Simple supply and demand. I have never owned them, but they seem plainly colored compared to other thumbnail frogs. My 2 cents.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> What WC CITES frogs regularly go for less then $100 retail? Anyone? Unlike other frogs only a limited number can be exported. The permits cost money, take time, inspections, all sorts of fun. To do it correctly, I don't see how any CITES darts can be under $100 retail. Too much invested into it for the small amount that can be exported.


The same thread that showed the fogs on the Rolex noted that groups of a dozen or so Almirante could be had for as low as around $40 a head, Granted that was a year or two ago and they were from Panama, not Costa Rica. Recently, Christobal imports on King snake have been offered for $75 each, so it can reasonably be assumed the seller probably paid $35-$45 per head.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure I buy this analogy since when Panama first opened up and began exporting pumilio, the importers were charging depending on the morph as much as $450/frog or even forcing people to take auratus with the pumilio... The price has significantly dropped from then to the point where you can get many Panamanian pumilio for less than $65 at a standard wholesale rate and the jobber's price is going to be even lower....
> 
> And as for only captive bred animals being what drops the price to a large degree, this is flatly contradicted by the economic models... As an example, if this was true, we still wouldn't be importing bush ball python babies....
> 
> ...


In 2004 I bought two D. pumilio at Daytona for $50-60 each. Maybe it was $80, but no more then that.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

oldlady25715 said:


> The same thread that showed the fogs on the Rolex noted that groups of a dozen or so Almirante could be had for as low as around $40 a head, Granted that was a year or two ago and they were from Panama, not Costa Rica. Recently, Christobal imports on King snake have been offered for $75 each, so it can reasonably be assumed the seller probably paid $35-$45 per head.



I'm talking RETAIL prices, not wholesale (which carry a lot of risks). For a healthy frog, $100 retail is as low as you'll normally get. The $75 frogs, have fun with that.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Reef_Haven said:


> Also, don't forget these frogs are farmed   So that also adds in nearly another year of someone's expetise and effort.


Let's not be cute about this anymore: There are NO farms breeding _O. pumilio_ in Panama. These are wild caught frogs. No one's expertise went into producing these frogs other than Mother Nature herself. 


hypostatic said:


> I think it's also worth mentioning that pumilio is also the most commonly exported dart frog, and in the largest numbers. Therefore, if tyhe market was saturated you'd see the prices going down. Instead it seems (in the last 2-3 years) that prices have been going up.


This baffles me. I would think that the price of these Panamanian frogs would be going down for any number of reasons.

Chris


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> I'm just curious, but what is the main problem with WC frogs? Parasites, chytrid, bacterial infections, stress? The main issue is inappropriate care during collection and transit, not being WC (when I see frogs in the wild, they are generally pretty healthy!). The same issues that affect WC animals do the same to captive bred animals kept under the same conditions. Remove them from these conditions and the issues are minimized, GREATLY.


My biggest concern, in all honesty, has always been the wild populations themselves. I realize all the importers (supposedly) have legal paperwork on the animals, and the country of origin has ok'd this paperwork, but especially with all the confusion over localities, I can't help but wonder whether some of these frogs are from but small local populations being hurt by collection for the trade. Admittedly, my concern on this point is heavier with other animal imports (Atelopus being one of the biggest) but is still a factor with darts.

As you say, a good importer may be able to get shipments and treat the animals with minimal loss, but I can't help but wonder what the impact is on the frogs from collection in situ until the hobbyist gets it, especially from the importers that we know are in it just for the quick buck.

-Pat


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

patm said:


> My biggest concern, in all honesty, has always been the wild populations themselves. I realize all the importers (supposedly) have legal paperwork on the animals, and the country of origin has ok'd this paperwork, but especially with all the confusion over localities, I can't help but wonder whether some of these frogs are from but small local populations being hurt by collection for the trade. Admittedly, my concern on this point is heavier with other animal imports (Atelopus being one of the biggest) but is still a factor with darts.
> 
> As you say, a good importer may be able to get shipments and treat the animals with minimal loss, but I can't help but wonder what the impact is on the frogs from collection in situ until the hobbyist gets it, especially from the importers that we know are in it just for the quick buck.
> 
> -Pat


And this is a legitimate concern. I do think some populations of O. pumilio can be hurt by over collecting, while others I don't think it's impact. Generally most of the "rarer" locales only have a 50 or so animals being collected and sent to the USA at a time, some much less (10-30 frogs). I am not aware of the amounts going elsewhere, so I can't comment in that.

I think things can and should be done better. We should always strive for this, in Panama and elsewhere.

The paperwork is not in question. It's been issues by the correct people and inspected by the correct people. 

As for Atelopus, the main issue with those right now is habitat lose due to mining. Large numbers are not being collected and exported, though I wish a few of the "new" ones were going into better hands.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

patm said:


> My biggest concern, in all honesty, has always been the wild populations themselves. I realize all the importers (supposedly) have legal paperwork on the animals, and the country of origin has ok'd this paperwork, but especially with all the confusion over localities, I can't help but wonder whether some of these frogs are from but small local populations being hurt by collection for the trade. Admittedly, my concern on this point is heavier with other animal imports (Atelopus being one of the biggest) but is still a factor with darts.
> 
> As you say, a good importer may be able to get shipments and treat the animals with minimal loss, but I can't help but wonder what the impact is on the frogs from collection in situ until the hobbyist gets it, especially from the importers that we know are in it just for the quick buck.
> 
> -Pat


I remember posting a lengthy piece on this very subject. Seems that I can not find it now. If anyone is interested PM me, I will email it to you.

Chris


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> While I'm not completely familiar with the situation in Panama, there are not enough frogs being sent that there is much of a need to hire locales to collect the frogs.


According to CITES, Panama claims to not have exported pumilio since 2009... yet importers in the USA claim to have imported somewhere between 3000 and 4,000 frogs... So there could easily be a discrepancy between what is claimed to be imported and what actually has come into the country... 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> I'm talking RETAIL prices, not wholesale (which carry a lot of risks). For a healthy frog, $100 retail is as low as you'll normally get. The $75 frogs, have fun with that.


who do you know in their right mind that buys dart frogs retail? pet stores charge $80 for a common tinc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> F1 is generally applied to frogs removed one generation from wild animals.


This definition actually has no meaning and is useless... F numbers are based on the numbers from a specific pairing... As an example of how it is worthless, we can simply look at the discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/89636-filial-generation-numbers.html#post791760



Blue_Pumilio said:


> I'm just curious, but what is the main problem with WC frogs? Parasites, chytrid, bacterial infections, stress? The main issue is inappropriate care during collection and transit, not being WC (when I see frogs in the wild, they are generally pretty healthy!). The same issues that affect WC animals do the same to captive bred animals kept under the same conditions. Remove them from these conditions and the issues are minimized, GREATLY.


Actually, no, the same issues do not tend to affect captive bred animals the same as wild caught.. We can see the issue right off the bat by looking at maladaption syndrome and it's impact on genetics... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> What WC CITES frogs regularly go for less then $100 retail? Anyone?


As has been the case for quite awhile.... Oophage pumilio, Dendrobates auratus.... the quote below is from Underground Reptile being advertised on Kingsnake.com oon August 23/2013



> *FIELD COLLECTED*
> *ALMIRANTE LOCALE*
> *FANTASTIC BRIGHT COLOR*
> *SUPER FAT AND HEALTHY*
> ...




And this isn't the only population of pumilio being sold for under $100..... The auratus are even less expensive.... 





Blue_Pumilio said:


> Unlike other frogs only a limited number can be exported. The permits cost money, take time, inspections, all sorts of fun. To do it correctly, I don't see how any CITES darts can be under $100 retail. Too much invested into it for the small amount that can be exported.


Really?? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Ed said:


> According to CITES, Panama claims to not have exported pumilio since 2009... yet importers in the USA claim to have imported somewhere between 3000 and 4,000 frogs... So there could easily be a discrepancy between what is claimed to be imported and what actually has come into the country...
> 
> 
> Some comments
> ...


And Ed and Pat, You have been around long enough to remember a member of the community crossing populations and producing his own "new locale imports" in the south west part of the US.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> Just for clarification (since I have no experience with pumilio), what do you consider "excellent success"? From what I read on the boards quite recently by some breeders that have been attempting this, I don't think that they would use the word "excellent" to describe the successes that they've had...


Talk to Robb Melanconn... and we need to look at the comparison stick.. for example attempting to feed them flakes... or egg yolk.. or eggs from other dendrobatid species.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> And Ed and Pat, You have been around long enough to remember a member of the community crossing populations and producing his own "new locale imports" in the south west part of the US.


Mmmm... this was actually one of the eye-openers for me, and about the same time I stopped buying any new Oophaga. Luckily, from the time I started in the hobby, I've been lucky enough to not to have dealt with any of these screwballs who seem to pop up every couple years or so.

-Pat


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> I do think some populations of O. pumilio can be hurt by over collecting


And, right here is why I feel these damn Pumilio imports should be shut down! 

How many different types of frogs do we need in this hobby? It is just a "hobby" after all...


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

But other populations are as common as mice in a field.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

oldlady25715 said:


> But other populations are as common as mice in a field.


Right, but who's making sure the smaller populations aren't wiped out?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> And, right here is why I feel these damn Pumilio imports should be shut down!


According to CITES Panama has reported zero pumilio exported to the USA since 2009, while importers in the USA have reported at close to 4,000 of them coming in...... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Dang...and how many of those 4,000 are still alive today.....


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

oldlady25715 said:


> Dang...and how many of those 4,000 are still alive today.....


A better question is how many of those 4,000 imported frogs were Captive bred in Texas or Florida by an untrustworthy member of the community?

And why would an importer of oh let's say vampire crabs and costa rican pumilio change the name of their business? Wouldn't one want to keep the name the same because of their quality reputation?

This thread is starting to get INTENSE!!!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> Dang...and how many of those 4,000 are still alive today.....


Actually lets put that into a little better perspective from http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/66270-import-numbers-4.html#post587754



> Here is the commercial use data from the CITES trade database (as a gross report) without the numbers for 2010 yet. From 2004-2007 there actually more than 16,000 pumilio exported from Panama alone for commercial purposes (with more than 22,000 between 2004-2009). In the period of 04-09; 3873 pumilio were exported from the US. If I wasn't tired I could pull up the trade report per reporting country so where the frogs went could at least in part be seen.


Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> I'm talking RETAIL prices, not wholesale (which carry a lot of risks). For a healthy frog, $100 retail is as low as you'll normally get. The $75 frogs, have fun with that.


Hmm.. weren't you cherry picking those self same $75 frogs for another member of this board to quarantine and resell...?? That is a pretty good indication that a portion of those frogs are going to do fine... and many of the resellers also "cherry pick"... Some of those who do so have been around a very long time (some I dealt with more than 20 years ago)and in my experience even the jobbers would do this with each other... I remember cherry picking at the old Bronx Reptiles (when Bruce was still the owner) and when I was done and waiting to settle the tab listening to Bruce dicker with the Florida boys....and then discussing how it worked with Bruce.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'd assume they were smuggled but for the fact that they end up with a retailer (SR/Florida).

So if they're not smuggled - how is this not going through CITES.

Genuinely curious.

s


Ed said:


> According to CITES Panama has reported zero pumilio exported to the USA since 2009, while importers in the USA have reported at close to 4,000 of them coming in......
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott said:


> I'd assume they were smuggled but for the fact that they end up with a retailer (SR/Florida).
> 
> So if they're not smuggled - how is this not going through CITES.
> 
> ...


Panama isn't reporting the frogs to CITES.. they are still issuing the CITES paperwork so they can be "legally" imported... now that doesn't mean that there will not be future repercussions due to a violation of the treaty (which means that countries that enforce the treaty may deny imports (the USA has a history of this action (example, Typhlonectes natans/compressicauda imports))). When it happens all depends on when CITES decides to take action or it rises to enough of a level that USF&W stop accepting the paperwork.. 


The interesting thing is that Panama stopped reporting to CITES in 2009, which would have been made available to CITES in 2010, the same year that this paper was published... The role of Asia in the global trade in CITES II-listed poison arrow frogs: hopping from Kazakhstan to Lebanon to Thailand and beyond - Springer The article highlights the issues with the unreported trade being laundered into Asia through a non-signatory country and calls upon CITES to take action....... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Panama exports need to be shut down.

Obviously they're not going to do it themselves, wish there was a way of doing it for them.

s


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Hmm.. weren't you cherry picking those self same $75 frogs for another member of this board to quarantine and resell...?? That is a pretty good indication that a portion of those frogs are going to do fine... and many of the resellers also "cherry pick"... Some of those who do so have been around a very long time (some I dealt with more than 20 years ago)and in my experience even the jobbers would do this with each other... I remember cherry picking at the old Bronx Reptiles (when Bruce was still the owner) and when I was done and waiting to settle the tab listening to Bruce dicker with the Florida boys....and then discussing how it worked with Bruce....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Interesting.....
Seems you are pointing your finger at one person yet lots of these WC imports are showing up in the classified ads by multiple individuals, as WC not F1' s. Too much flipping which is intersting considering how many are coming in. Just "cherry pickers" going to SR and holding them and reselling at a profit. Very few F1' s for sale.... lots of WC coming in.... I truly doubt individuals selling these frogs are doing a proper QT with PCR a mere $18 bucks vs a few drops of foot fungal cream diluted dropped on their back or a antibiotic like baytril....
I have not bought any frogs from Justin nor have any in the works, my impression is this is turning into a ridiculous witch hunt. If you want to go after someone go after SR or the farm that rapes the pums from the environment.
Ed while you have your research info on hand, how often is SR importing these pums and how many???


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Careful of the term Witch Hunt Beth. 

I agree with you in principle on this - but there are a few things I need to know more about. I've heard some ridiculous accusations privately - and I've invited the person to put up (give me the name) or shut up.

s


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bcs TX said:


> I have not bought any frogs from Justin nor have any in the works, my impression is this is turning into a ridiculous witch hunt.


Actually, I was targeting the comment by the person who is actively buying and selling those $75 (or less frogs depending on how many they were picking up) who was then representing them as a risky investment... 

As for pointing the finger at one person, I haven't seen anyone else here putting down those frogs as being more risky when they are actually picking up and reselling those same frogs... As I also noted, that cherry picking isn't uncommon for those frogs and has been an ongoing process for many many years..... 



Bcs TX said:


> If you want to go after someone go after SR or the farm that rapes the pums from the environment.


Hmm, odd, I think I am going after the people who import in bulk and resell wc frogs since I've long pointed out that pumilio are being harvested in huge numbers.... I think if you look at the posts I've made in the past about exports and what happens to them, I've been making that point for a long time...at the very least since before 2007.... which I think is longer than you've been a member here... If I remember correctly, I'm the one who posted the original CITES trade database numbers and I'm also pretty sure I was the first person to post the link on trade from Panama to Asia.... 

Are those others on here putting down the frogs, while reselling them?? Are any of them part of this thread and making comments on the quality of the frogs? When you make comments in an open forum, you open yourself up for discussion..... 



Bcs TX said:


> Ed while you have your research info on hand, how often is SR importing these pums and how many???


I haven't filed a FOIA on Strictly which is the only way to get that information.... Anyone can file a FOIA... Beth, why don't you file it and share what they say about it if you feel so strongly about it? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott said:


> Panama exports need to be shut down.
> 
> Obviously they're not going to do it themselves, wish there was a way of doing it for them.
> 
> s


Not as a justification (which some will try to use it as) but even if the USA and CITES shut down the trade, they could still continue to ship to a non-signatory country and launder the into the trade that way. The sad thing is that there is very little that can actually done to Panama over this.. it is highly unlikely that trade sanctions (other than refusing entry to those animals) or other actions will occur.. The best we can really hope for is that CITES takes action and enough countries refuse trade to mainly shut it down.. which unfortunately pushes smuggling. 

If we get really lucky, Panama will eventually follow the pattern that were historically present which is someone will change in one or more governmental positions, and the country will shut down for 5-10 years. 

As a simple example of how it may still occur, when USF&W began to refuse shipments of Typhlonectes (in no small part due to the discussion in Captive Management Conservation of Amphibians and Reptiles (Contributions to herpetology), 1994, SSAR Press), they were still available in Canada.. With some smuggling going on into the US. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> But other populations are as common as mice in a field.


As a side note, pumilio are actually pretty interesting in this regard (a trait they share with a number of other dendrobatids).. In disturbed habitats, they can actually be found in numbers that far exceed those in "pristine" or old growth habitats.. If you have access to a copy of Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, there is a great picture of a group of pumilio on a pile of cut open pods with several calling males close to one another... So the very small populations may actually be limited by the habitat and would probably show an increased presence if more tadpole deposition sites were added (as demonstrated in several papers on the topic). 

some comments 

Ed


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ed said:


> Panama isn't reporting the frogs to CITES.. they are still issuing the CITES paperwork so they can be "legally" imported... now that doesn't mean that there will not be future repercussions due to a violation of the treaty (which means that countries that enforce the treaty may deny imports (the USA has a history of this action (example, Typhlonectes natans/compressicauda imports))). When it happens all depends on when CITES decides to take action or it rises to enough of a level that USF&W stop accepting the paperwork..
> 
> 
> The interesting thing is that Panama stopped reporting to CITES in 2009, which would have been made available to CITES in 2010, the same year that this paper was published... The role of Asia in the global trade in CITES II-listed poison arrow frogs: hopping from Kazakhstan to Lebanon to Thailand and beyond - Springer The article highlights the issues with the unreported trade being laundered into Asia through a non-signatory country and calls upon CITES to take action.......
> ...


haha expect to see a new local of poison frogs, Thai. they will surely release them into their banana farms.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

I greatly preferred to deal with Bob--sorry to hijack...



Ed said:


> Hmm.. weren't you cherry picking those self same $75 frogs for another member of this board to quarantine and resell...?? That is a pretty good indication that a portion of those frogs are going to do fine... and many of the resellers also "cherry pick"... Some of those who do so have been around a very long time (some I dealt with more than 20 years ago)and in my experience even the jobbers would do this with each other... I remember cherry picking at the old Bronx Reptiles (when Bruce was still the owner) and when I was done and waiting to settle the tab listening to Bruce dicker with the Florida boys....and then discussing how it worked with Bruce....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Sorry to go prosaic/pedantic/picky, but to address Scott's o-p:

1) Rarity (not “scarcity,” which has a specific definition in economics), can drive demand for any “luxury” good. Frog A may be prettier, but if frog B is rarer, someone who cares will want it; 
2) Status competition: Other people will want it as well. (i.e., the “additional unit of satisfaction”). First articulated by Veblen, we know it as “keeping up with the Jones”); 
3) This creates a tangible incentive for suppliers;
3) Demand for luxury goods can quickly escalate, following some odd models, and often culminating in bubbles (famous historical example is tulipomania). These can and do eventually crash--Jon predicts that will happen here;
4) Price “elasticity” for luxury goods and their complementary goods (in this case, equipment, food, etc.) are affected by macroeconomic factors, such as a recession. In the aggregate, demand for pets and hobbies drops during a recession; 
5) If enough people feel as the OP does about pumilio, the “quantity demanded” will drop; Suppliers will at first respond by lowering prices. If both drop, the demand itself will drop (meaning the demand curve will shift to the left). 
6) Suppliers will also try to pass along costs (fees, licenses, bribes, etc.) If sellers no longer find it profitable in terms of what they deem a “fair” price, some will leave; 
7) If enough suppliers leave, it will be left to hobbyists to supply. 
We all know that less prolific organisms (certain frogs, angraecoid orchids, abronias) will be more expensive—this is the seller setting his “schedule of supply;” Example: If other people believed as I (correctly) do--I have an existential right to an Abronia, but will pay no more than a buck and a half--many breeders would probably stop breeding abronia;
8) Sometimes there is a temporary spike in demand for wild caught stock as it is seen as a healthy infusion of “new” genetic material.

9) So the point is, sellers and buyers meet in the marketplace to set the price. 

Whether people should be able to buy WC frogs is a moral and/or ecological question, beyond the scope of economics. 

(Maybe this why they call it the dismal science)


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Not true, there are more pumilio available today than at any other time.
> Prices will crash, and soon too


Sorry, wrong again. Pumilio were WC imported in numbers in the 90's that make todays imports pale in comparison. I was in the hobby then, and I watched the vast majority of these imports perish because no-one knew how to take care of, or breed them.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Not to digress, but are there not other examples of herps increasing due to human disturbance?

--dwarf siren (water hyancinth)
--marine toads;
--Podarcis sp.
--Furcifer;
--Pituophis (near granaries);
--Red eared sliders (fish ponds), etc.;

and while not a herp, my favorite is still scorpions in the Southwest (because of home construction)

Can/should the 'extras" be collected? I surmise this would depend on the species...



Ed said:


> As a side note, pumilio are actually pretty interesting in this regard (a trait they share with a number of other dendrobatids).. In disturbed habitats, they can actually be found in numbers that far exceed those in "pristine" or old growth habitats.. If you have access to a copy of Poison Frogs by Lotters et al, there is a great picture of a group of pumilio on a pile of cut open pods with several calling males close to one another... So the very small populations may actually be limited by the habitat and would probably show an increased presence if more tadpole deposition sites were added (as demonstrated in several papers on the topic).
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Time out: This, in a nutshell, is what frosts me about this whole mode of communication.

Why is "sorry, wrong again..." necessary?!? Why not, "I'm sorry, but that is not actually correct." The latter is polite (if rather formal); the former is a schoolyard taunt. 

Doesn't anyone else here notice a coarseness of tone? (not just you, PDF, not by a long shot--but the whole Board). I apologize for pointing this out publicly, but I wanted to do this when it was not directed at me personally--try to make my point seem more "objective," or at least not defensive...



pdfCrazy said:


> Sorry, wrong again. Pumilio were WC imported in numbers in the 90's that make todays imports pale in comparison. I was in the hobby then, and I watched the vast majority of these imports perish because no-one knew how to take care of, or breed them.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Thanks for the dose of perspective, frogfreak... 

I suggest that only frogs we "need" are the frogs that might end up needing us...



frogfreak said:


> And, right here is why I feel these damn Pumilio imports should be shut down!
> 
> How many different types of frogs do we need in this hobby? It is just a "hobby" after all...


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Ed said:


> According to CITES, Panama claims to not have exported pumilio since 2009... yet importers in the USA claim to have imported somewhere between 3000 and 4,000 frogs... So there could easily be a discrepancy between what is claimed to be imported and what actually has come into the country...
> 
> 
> Some comments
> ...


Actually, CITES has reported exports for every year since 2004:

2012 - 850
2011 - 5575
2010 - 4965
2009 - 2629
2008 - 3592
2007 - 3150
2006 - 6650
2005 - 3215
2004 - 2990

Unfortunately, since CITES recently changed their database, there have been many problems. So finding the data can be tricky but it's there. For pumilio, CITES is still using _Dendrobates pumilio _rather than _Oophaga pumilio_.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

edwardsatc said:


> Actually, CITES has reported exports for every year since 2004:
> 
> 2012 - 850
> 2011 - 5575
> ...


There must be a problem. I find it very difficult to believe that with all the shipments SR brought in last year (3 I believe) that there were only 850 frogs total imported last year. Something is fishy for sure.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> There must be a problem. I find it very difficult to believe that with all the shipments SR brought in last year (3 I believe) that there were only 850 frogs total imported last year. Something is fishy for sure.


Jon,

2012 numbers probably aren't up to date yet. It typically takes CITES about a year to gather all the export data and update the database. I would expect that number to change (increase) by the end of this year.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

edwardsatc said:


> Actually, CITES has reported exports for every year since 2004:


Donn,

last night I was having issues getting the Trade database to work right so I went at it in a different direction and used the CITES trade database dashboard function. The function reports the trade differently by listing what the exporting country reports versus what the importing country reports... As can be seen by the attached graph, the number of amphibians exported went down to zero in 2009 while the importers in the USA reported imports. 

CITES can and does track animals on both ends if the information is submitted to them. In this case, USF&W submits the numbers imported, while Panama is not reporting the exports. As I noted above, this corresponds to the article and call for CITES to take action. 

Here are the graphs which provided the data I was referring to.... The first is the graph showing compliance in reporting by Panama, the second are the three top importers of amphibians from Panama and the third is the total number of dendrobatids exported from Panama....


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Ed,

Yes, I've seen the dashboard graphs. The problem is that those graphs are not supported by the actual data. If you look at the actual data, the country of origin is clearly reporting most of the exports of dendrobates (I haven't checked other amphibians). 

For example: If you pull up the "comparative tabulation" report for gross exports for Dendrobates pumilio it's clear that Panama is reporting most exports (not all) since 2009. The column labeled "(Re-) Export Quantity" is defined by CITES as "quantity of specimens reported as (re-)exports by the exporting country ". 

The CITES trade database has always had a lot of issues and the current "new and improved version" seems to have only made many of these issues worse. One of the biggest issues is that if the importing and exporting countries to not report each element of the data in the exact same way, then they appear as separate entries which makes it hard to determine whether an export has been reported from both ends. CITES cites examples of this in the guide to using the database.

I should add that I am in no way supporting imports from panama. Panama has been skirting CITES convention and in my opinion should be shut down.


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