# A variety of vents



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I was checking on frogs in rearing tubs and had the camera with me the other day; took the opportunity to snap a few pics. 

I remember when ventrimaculata were pretty highly sought after...now it seems you hardly hear about or see them. Stunning frogs (they have a metallic irridescence that just doesn't come through in photographs) and they do well in groups. If you're working with any, feel free to post pics!

Yellow Peruvian



























"Red"


















Iquitos (in the past called "amazonicus"). This form was collected alongside striped_ R. reticulata_.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

VERY BEAUTIFUL FROGS !

Ill be the first to ask before julio , FTS? lol


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

love the yellow peruvians


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## jon (Mar 12, 2008)

Those reds are hot.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

nathan said:


> Ill be the first to ask before julio , FTS?


They're actually in rearing tubs at the moment (longer than I had anticipated...but will be nice and mature when temps warm for shipping). The tubs aren't anything special or photo-worthy: substrate, plant cuttings, leaf litter, decomposing fruit and compost, microfauna and fruit flies, etc.



frogparty said:


> love the yellow peruvians


I think they might be my favorite as well. Photos simply don't do them justice: in person they have this metallic sheen that almost makes them appear as if they are glowing. An absolutely stunning form of vent.


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## D's Darts (Apr 8, 2009)

Beautiful frogs ! Hoping to get some soon.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> I think they might be my favorite as well. Photos simply don't do them justice: in person they have this metallic sheen that almost makes them appear as if they are glowing. An absolutely stunning form of vent.


Are these the same as the Chuck Powell line of vents from Peru? If so, I whole heartedly agree that they are some of the prettiest frogs out there. My males are bold (have 2.1) They don't breed for me like other vents do though; not consistent and they do some odd stuff with clutches (splitting one clutch between 3 canisters). I remember hearing that the founding stock for these frogs was just 3 tadpoles in the 90's, so I wonder if there is some bottlenecking going on.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Aurotaenia said:


> Are these the same as the Chuck Powell line of vents from Peru? If so, I whole heartedly agree that they are some of the prettiest frogs out there.


Yeah Chris, they are from that same line. 



> I remember hearing that the founding stock for these frogs was just 3 tadpoles in the 90's, so I wonder if there is some bottlenecking going on.


I hadn't heard that, but would be interesting to confirm with Chuck.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

Can't wait to get some of these!


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I love my vents. I have a 1.2 group of iquitos red-orange. They really are incredibly metallic and stunning. I was checking the tank one day and saw one of my females had gotten under the false bottom. I snapped a few pics and then lifted the substrate and she hopped right back up.







Sorry for the blurry glass, I can't really get down there to clean it. She is huge! I don't know why she won't lay eggs, she's been like this for a few weeks now. For whatever reason mine aren't the typical "breed like rabbit vents" they laid one clutch about 6 months ago that was bad and thats it. Any tips to get the beautiful frogs breeding?


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## brooklyndartfrogs (Nov 19, 2005)

Very nice Ron!
Ditto on the Peruvians!


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Ron

Very nice frogs, I'd love to get my hands on some of those Peruvian vents.

And are your Red's the Red Vents or Amazonicus?

I'm currently working with Iquitos Red/Orange Vents, FG Vents, and Amazonicus and soon the Borja Ridge.

Mine are all quite bold, the mazonicus and FG being the boldest. They are my second favorite group of thumbs, right behind imis.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Aurotaenia said:


> Are these the same as the Chuck Powell line of vents from Peru? If so, I whole heartedly agree that they are some of the prettiest frogs out there. My males are bold (have 2.1) They don't breed for me like other vents do though; not consistent and they do some odd stuff with clutches (splitting one clutch between 3 canisters). I remember hearing that the founding stock for these frogs was just 3 tadpoles in the 90's, so I wonder if there is some bottlenecking going on.


This would be interesting to find out since I am working on the ventrimaculata TMP.

Also agree they are one of the nicer morphs


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

ggazonas said:


> And are your Red's the Red Vents or Amazonicus?


Todd and I have had quite a few conversations about the vents out there and the ones we're working with, so here are some of my thoughts about them:

Amazonicus is basically a bogus name at this point since we know the frogs referred to as this "species" are now just ventrimaculata from the Iquitos region. I think a lot of division has occured within these frogs in captivity simply based on color (which may or may not be correct, but when you start seeeing red-orange vents, and they are supposedly seperate from orange-red vents...something seems a bit created to me). 

So I have started referring to "amazonicus" vents as "Iquitos" vents, making sure to reiterate that these are not UE frogs and their exact locale/populations can't be confirmed. However, the "Iquitos" vents that Todd has (and that I posted pictures of) were collected alongside and with a striped form of _R. reticulata _in the Iquitos region. They were actually collected and shipped _as_ reticulata at the time, but someone noticed they were a different species and seperated them out upon importation. Todd ended up with the entire group of them...so all of these "Iquitos" vents are from that original group.

The Red Vents are actual "Red Vents"...not a "red-orange" form of vent--they tend to breed fairly true and different from the "Iquitos" vents in their coloration and tend to be of a different size, so we keep/breed them seperately as they seem to have come from a different population/locale.

As far as all other "amazonicus" vents out there--_of course tracking imports and lineage information is important--_but apart from the "Red Vents" and the "Iquitos" vents that can be traced back to Todd's specific group, I would think all of the reddish/orangish frogs could all be kept and managed together as an "Iquitos" type ventrimaculata (unless import/lineage info suggests otherwise).

As far as the Peruvian vents, I believe Chuck Powell has referred to them in the past as "yellow amazonicus/golden Peruvian vents." These, assuming they can be traced back to Chuck's group, should be kept seperate from all other yellow vents in the hobby. Chuck knows where they were collected, and posted it a few months ago on Frognet, but I can't seem to find that e-mail.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Found it:

From 7/17/09



> There have been lots of importations of ventrimaculatus group frogs over the years. In the mid- to late 1980's Dale Bertram brought back some yellow ventrimaculatus from Mt. Bufo Mort in French Guyana and those were breed extensively and passed around the hobby. _ In the early 1990's I got a trio of what I think is now called the Peruivian gold from a friend who brought them back from Peru. I breed a number of these and passed them on to the hobby._ John Uhern also in the 1990's imported a number of different ventrimaculatus group frogs on several occasions, including several ventrimaculatus forms, including red, yellow, orange, and some others that have been given different names in recent years.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

That frog is ready to pop. Wear safety goggles, bro.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> _In the early 1990's I got a trio of what I think is now called the Peruivian gold from a friend who brought them back from Peru. I breed a number of these and passed them on to the hobby._


That explains the small founding number and possible genetic bottlenecking issues, then...assuming Chuck was the only one to obtain those vents.


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Just to mix it up a bit.

Tor has a group of orange vents/amazonicus which are differant from the red amazonicus of Todds that he thinks now are iquitos. I am pretty sure Tor got these from Uhern.

Then Darren Meyer has a golden vent group that breeds very slowly, he mentioned like 9 months for a tad to develop. Might this line be the same one Chuck is talking about. Also is this the same frog that Phil Tan offers as golden amazonicus? I don't think so but I'm not sure. That could be another form.

Ron you got more detective work to do.

ERic


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

I have kept Todds Yellow Amys, Red Amys and his Red Vents, i remember clarifying w/ him about what they actually are, at that time they were just that, what we called them. I only keep his vents now, (Sorry, Red Vents) 
But his Gold Amys were unbelievably stunning. And i love the red vents, wont get rid of them.

Amazonicus















































Red Vents 















































Yellow Amy


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Could we at least stop using the term "amazonicus"? It seems to just add more confusion...like saying "red vents" and "red amys"...they're both the same species, just different populations/morphs, so I think we need to come up with better, maybe more specific, terminology.

Thanks for the info, Eric...but luckily George is the one working on the TMP, not me.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> Could we at least stop using the term "amazonicus"? It seems to just add more confusion...like saying "red vents" and "red amys"...they're both the same species, just different populations/morphs, so I think we need to come up with better, maybe more specific, terminology.
> 
> Thanks for the info, Eric...but luckily George is the one working on the TMP, not me.


I couldn't agree more Ron! To this day I still get confused with which frog is considered an Amy and which is considered a vent. Relabeling the frogs will be a pain for the old school keepers, but will be much easier for newcomers to the hobby.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

porkchop said:


> I have kept Todds Yellow Amys,
> 
> Yellow Amy


These frogs are part of the Chuck Powell line (still have them Gary). The frogs Phil has as Golden Amazonicus are as well. Pat Nabors has them and lists them as Golden Peruvian Vents on his website. He mentioned that he has had spotty results with these frogs too.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

So what's the deal with the whole "grey leg" and "blue leg" thing on some of the vents? I assume it's the usual splitting of phenotypic hairs in the hobby (e.g. standard and fine-spot azureus)...does anybody know off the top of their heads whether or not these frogs came in the same or different importations?


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> So what's the deal with the whole "grey leg" and "blue leg" thing on some of the vents? I assume it's the usual splitting of phenotypic hairs in the hobby (e.g. standard and fine-spot azureus)...does anybody know off the top of their heads whether or not these frogs came in the same or different importations?


Yeah. The one I got definitely has grey legs and is supposedly a UE frog from Mac (Macspoison on DB).


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

chinoanoah said:


> Yeah. The one I got definitely has grey legs...


I have no doubt that leg coloration differs...whether or not that means they are from completely seperate locales or its simply natural variation from within the same population is a completely different story. I'm curious if anyone has concrete lineage/import information going back to when these frogs were first introduced to the hobby.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hey Ron, I asked this same question a while back and here's the thread.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...on-about-leg-colors-vents.html?highlight=vent

Seems that most feel the FG vents throw both leg colors and should probably be mixed.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

side question, does FG mean fully-grown?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks Tim...I'll give that thread a read later tonight. That is what I assumed was going on.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

chinoanoah said:


> side question, does FG mean fully-grown?


FG = French Guiana


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

That's mostly correct - its was 2.1 but they were adults given tome by someone who brought them back from around Iquitos, Peru. Wish I still had them. I sent the adults to a friend who "lost" them. These things happen, but over the years its happened a number of times to me. 

For example I know I produced hundreds (maybe a 1,000) Canal zone D. auratus from a trio of wild caught adults that I was given by Jack Frenkel. The frogs died after 18 years (a month short) in my care. I never held back any, so I no longer have them. I'd guess there are still some out there, but I've never seen pictures of any or heard of anyone having them. 

Best,

Chuck



Aurotaenia said:


> Are these the same as the Chuck Powell line of vents from Peru? If so, I whole heartedly agree that they are some of the prettiest frogs out there. My males are bold (have 2.1) They don't breed for me like other vents do though; not consistent and they do some odd stuff with clutches (splitting one clutch between 3 canisters). I remember hearing that the founding stock for these frogs was just 3 tadpoles in the 90's, so I wonder if there is some bottlenecking going on.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Ron,

The gray and blue leg D. ventrimaculatus came in at least once together collected from a single bromalid from Bufo Mort, French Guyiana by Dale Bertram. They produced both blue and gray legged offspring. I've seen importations with both blue and gray legs can't remember any specific details.

Best,

Chuck



skylsdale said:


> So what's the deal with the whole "grey leg" and "blue leg" thing on some of the vents? I assume it's the usual splitting of phenotypic hairs in the hobby (e.g. standard and fine-spot azureus)...does anybody know off the top of their heads whether or not these frogs came in the same or different importations?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

chuckpowell said:


> That's mostly correct - its was 2.1 but they were adults given tome by someone who brought them back from around Iquitos, Peru. Wish I still had them. I sent the adults to a friend who "lost" them. These things happen, but over the years its happened a number of times to me.
> 
> For example I know I produced hundreds (maybe a 1,000) Canal zone D. auratus from a trio of wild caught adults that I was given by Jack Frenkel. The frogs died after 18 years (a month short) in my care. I never held back any, so I no longer have them. I'd guess there are still some out there, but I've never seen pictures of any or heard of anyone having them.
> 
> ...


Wow Chuck, that's gotta be frustrating. Seems like I've talked with someone recently that was working with some. I'll have to try and remember who and see if they can trace them back.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

jubjub47 said:


> Seems like I've talked with someone recently that was working with some. I'll have to try and remember who and see if they can trace them back.


I am working with a trio of Canal Zones that have been in captivity for quite a while...will see how far I can trace them back.

Thanks for the info on the vents, Chuck...that's good to know.


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## Occidentalis (Jul 11, 2009)

Are the Yellow Peruvians available at all anymore, or are they being flaky breeders.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

The froglets I posted at the beginning of this thread are from successful breeders (they're already spoken for). But I'm not sure what the current success rate "at large" is with this form of vent.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

For me, they are flaky, but I've only had the group (2.1) together for 7 months. The subordinate male is a 6+ years old hold back from frogs I picked up from Chuck at an AFD meeting in the 90's, the dominant male is 18 months old from Patrick and the female is maybe 2-3 years old and came from Todd via someone else.

Since putting them together, I've gotten 87 eggs, mean clutch size of 7.25 eggs (N=12). 20 (from 5 different clutches) have shown signs of significant development (making it to stage 17 or so) and 16 are currently in the water.

On top of poor development, I've noticed odd breeding behavior, like clutches being spread out over multiple film canisters (mentioned above) and laying clutches in apple goo in feeding stations. 

I've been reevaluating my husbandry with these guys, but I have been doing this for over 15 years now and what I'm doing works with all my other vents. Plus for the past year I've been working with 'retired' frogs, getting them back into breeding condition to keep their blood alive in the hobby and now have a couple pairs of retics that are nearly a decade old producing good eggs.

I know that Patrick is working with them and got some tads in the water in the late summer. Todd and Phil Tan are still working with them to the best of my knowledge but I don't know what kind of success they have with theirs.

I'm holding back all of my babies (minus a couple for someone) until a plan can be made to stablize the group in the hobby or it is determined that nothing can be done (which would be sad).


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> Wow Chuck, that's gotta be frustrating. Seems like I've talked with someone recently that was working with some. I'll have to try and remember who and see if they can trace them back.


I am also working with them currently and having success with get fertile eggs and thriving tads.

Mine originally came from Patrick Nabors, so I'll have to contact him and see if he remembers where his group came from.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

So far I've determined through contact with Tor, Chuck and Mark Pepper that their were numberous groups of FG vents that came in to the states.

There is the group that Chuck previously mentioned as well as a group from Cayenne Fench Guinna collected by Ruud Schouten and then there are quite a few groups siad to have been brought in that Tor Linbo use to keep. I'm still going through the info that I have collected on the FG vents and never realized that the different groups that were collected could have been separate populations which have now been mix together.

I also think that UE had a group of FG vents, but I'll have to check with Mark on that one.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

ggazonas said:


> I am also working with them currently and having success with get fertile eggs and thriving tads.
> 
> Mine originally came from Patrick Nabors, so I'll have to contact him and see if he remembers where his group came from.


My Canal Zone auratus are WC ("farm raised") frogs that came in during the massive imports of 2004.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

ggazonas said:


> I am also working with them currently and having success with get fertile eggs and thriving tads.
> 
> Mine originally came from Patrick Nabors, so I'll have to contact him and see if he remembers where his group came from.


We talked about the vents this summer and his came from Chuck and his group consists of some of his original frogs and their offspring. If you are talking about the canal zone auratus, then I don't know...


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

My Canal zone frogs were different from other importations I've seen over the year. I don't know exactly where Jack got them. But because of his work with tropical diseases he was able to get export permits from Panama. I might even still have a copy of those permits.

Best,

Chuck



skylsdale said:


> My Canal Zone auratus are WC ("farm raised") frogs that came in during the massive imports of 2004.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

chuckpowell said:


> My Canal zone frogs were different from other importations I've seen over the year. I don't know exactly where Jack got them. But because of his work with tropical diseases he was able to get export permits from Panama. I might even still have a copy of those permits.


Those would be interesting to see, Chuck. I'd be interested in seeing some photos if you happen to have any.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Aurotaenia said:


> We talked about the vents this summer and his came from Chuck and his group consists of some of his original frogs and their offspring. If you are talking about the canal zone auratus, then I don't know...


Chris

Yeah I was talking about the canal zone.

As far as the vents, I actually have that emailed saved from the summer.And as the TMG goes you shoulded be added shortly, but in the mean time I can send you the latest version of the TMP and what info I have.


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