# Frogs fading from the hobby



## jflick345 (Sep 16, 2013)

I see people posting about the new frogs entering the hobby and what's becoming available but just passing mention about frogs falling out of favor and not being bred as much as in the past. What are some of the frogs that are becoming less and less popular and at risk for disappearing from the hobby? This type of info would definitely help me in deciding the type of frog to get if I can assist in sustaining a line vs. a new line of frogs that's just starting up. I also realize it's probably not necessarily the easiest question to answer but I appreciate any input. 

Thanks,
Joe


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

A lot of the LBF's are getting less and less attention. Particularly the smaller, less colorful Ameerega spp. and Hyloxalus spp.

D


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

There's quite a few frogs that only a handful of people are keeping and breeding at this point. Off the top of my head the ones that people could attain somewhat easily are: femoralis, zaparo, azureiventris, bassleri 'black/sapasoa' and 'yellow/tarapoto,' both the panguana and green leg panguana sirensis, cainarachi valley imitator, most populations of anthonyi, any trivittata, old line amazonica, and probably many more.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

thedude said:


> There's quite a few frogs that only a handful of people are keeping and breeding at this point. Off the top of my head the ones that people could attain somewhat easily are: femoralis, zaparo, azureiventris, bassleri 'black/sapasoa' and 'yellow/tarapoto,' both the panguana and green leg panguana sirensis, cainarachi valley imitator, most populations of anthonyi, any trivittata, old line amazonica, and probably many more.


Its so sad when beautiful frogs such as these disappear from our hobby. You covered most of the ones I know of, but there are probably more than that. 

Honestly, I would like to work with all of the frogs you listed. They are all very cool


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

You can add to that list, Yurimaguas imitators, quinquevittatus , old Todd Kelly line amazonica and Taboga auratus.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

epiphytes etc. said:


> You can add to that list, Yurimaguas imitators, quinquevittatus , old Todd Kelly line amazonica and Taboga auratus.


I have a female Todd Kelly line Amazonicus if anyone has a spare male kicking around


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

epiphytes etc. said:


> You can add to that list, Yurimaguas imitators, quinquevittatus , old Todd Kelly line amazonica and Taboga auratus.


Ya there's a few things I forgot. While not really in danger of falling out of the hobby, there are quite a few UE frogs that aren't too popular either. Like hanheli, altamazonica, yumbatos imitator, blackwater amazonica, several variabilis like rodyll, rio napo, and Borja ridge. flavovittata and uakarii aren't very popular for some reason either.


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## jflick345 (Sep 16, 2013)

Info like this is always so interesting. There are a lot of cool looking frogs on these lists too. Looks like I have a lot of frogs to look into.


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## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

Just pulled up a pic of cainarachi valley imitator, what a great look frog!!


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Ya there are even more in the list for frogs not necessarily in danger of disappearing from the hobby, but not generally appreciated, vittatus, fg amazonica, campaña auratus, well, quite a few auratus really, truncatus, aurotaenia, etc.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Just a prediction but I see orange lamasi heading in this direction. Lot of people sold off their breeders past year. We shall see though.

Castis seem to be very difficult to come by too.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

mydumname said:


> Castis seem to be very difficult to come by too.


This is likely more a function of their legal status.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

A lot tend to shy away from that word on this forum. Not all though. They are around but didn't sound like many we're having success with them.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Some more frogs I should mention, old line O. vicentei and old line A. fulguritus. 

D


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Are fulguritus even still around?

Really, with those two examples, I don't think their rarity is due to lack of interest.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Didn't know they were available.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Yes, but were talking about frogs fading from the hobby due to various reasons, correct? Fulguritus are still being bred. Some newer illegal imports came in last year, but old lines are still going. There's a breeding group of old lines up north.

D


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Dendroguy said:


> Some more frogs I should mention, old line O. vicentei and old line A. fulguritus.
> 
> D


Wow, I haven't even heard of these guys before!

Is there a reason they didn't take hold in the hobby?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

FroggyKnight said:


> Wow, I haven't even heard of these guys before!
> 
> Is there a reason they didn't take hold in the hobby?


Yea I'd be personally interested in the Fulguritus if they were possible to locate.

I'm already working with alot of what's on the list so far.
Quinqs, Zaparo, Femoralis, Red Trivs, Black Bassleri & Orange 
Pepperi. 
It'd be nice to add those to the list.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

As usual frogs go in cycles. Three years ago it was all about Ranitomeya. Now everyone needs to get their obligate fix.... When no one is breeding thumbs anymore they'll get popular again.... Just keep what you love and love what you keep.

I'd love to have the chance to work with some fulguritas down the road.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

FroggyKnight said:


> Wow, I haven't even heard of these guys before!
> 
> Is there a reason they didn't take hold in the hobby?


Yes.

A) A. fulguritus was imported from Colombia towards the end of their reign as a major exporter, so very few individuals were imported, and even fewer made it to EU and the US, and then even fewer pairs. O. vicentei's range is all maintained within a national park in panama and into the very southern portion of CR (blue) so they got imported in limited numbers before the park was there.

B) O. vicentei is a pain in the a** to breed. I mean seriously a huge pain the a**. As well as the fact that you can count the number of breeding pairs/groups on one hand that are in the US.

C) Any new animals are VERY illegal and fall into the hands of very few people, most in Japan and EU.

D


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## DamianR (Oct 24, 2013)

What most people do not realize is that alot of long time hobbyist hardly use any forums. These are people who have in their collections most of the stuff we think is banished, but behind closed doors u would be surprised at what people are trading. I am not talking about anything illegal but as stated old lines of frogs from back in the 90s. As the saying goes, its not about what you know, but who you know. 

The problem with the hobby is that everyone is always going after the biggest trend. Just two 3 years ago you could not sell a Highland Sirensis for 150 bucks and we are talking adults . . . now people will pay 200 for a froglet. Lets enjoy the hobby more, we arent going to become billionares doing this.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Very, very well put Damian.

D


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Dendroguy said:


> Very, very well put Damian.
> 
> D


you beat me to it

In the wise words of dendroguy, very, very well put Damian!


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Yea, both fulgurita and zaparo are on my wish list.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Were p lugubris mentioned yet


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

mydumname said:


> Were p lugubris mentioned yet


Don't think so, they fit the bill though.

D


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

DamianR said:


> I am not talking about anything illegal but as stated old lines of frogs from back in the 90s.


There are people with old lines of unimportable frogs out there, but be careful who you believe. More often than not a hobbyist will make the claim "these are old late 80s line" when really they're just smuggled frogs. The old lines are more common than most people think, but less common than people who make this statement seem to think.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

If we are including frogs that are rare due to lack of success than there are a lot more. Duellmani, rio itaya reticulata, cainarachi, macero, arborea, and of course the large obligates.

It's unfortunate that a lot of frogs were really popular at one point, but everyone bred the hell out of them and suddenly nobody wanted them anymore. Then everyone's breeders dissappear somehow...

I can see this will probably happen with a lot of Ranitomeya.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

P. lugubris was never really that present in the hobby in the first place. Actually, vittatus originally entered the hobby _as_ lugubris and was sold as such for quite a while until Brent Brock had the DNA sequenced back in the 90's and it was determined that what everyone thought was lugubris was, in fact, vittatus.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I got lugubris a while back for about $15 each. Not many bred them though.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

thedude said:


> I can see this will probably happen with a lot of Ranitomeya.


Dude, don't make me cry. It would kill me if we lost a species such as vanzolinii. They will never go out of style for me….


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## DamianR (Oct 24, 2013)

I myself personally would like to see some more old school Intermedius available as it seems now that only chazutas are being sold. . .strange.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

DamianR said:


> I myself personally would like to see some more old school Intermedius available as it seems now that only chazutas are being sold. . .strange.


I would like to see more of them as well. The 'intermedius' are pretty cool in my opinion. Last time I spoke to Mr. Tan, he had some available. I love knowing that even if the morph is not as popular as it used to be, it is still receiving the attention it deserves by a dedicated keeper.

Is the line Tan keep the same as 'old school' or is it a separate import?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

The Phil Tan line is a very old school line. I believe it's the original import line


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

frogparty said:


> The Phil Tan line is a very old school line. I believe it's the original import line


Wow, that works for me! Gorgeous frogs….I will probably buy more from him sometime in the future


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## DamianR (Oct 24, 2013)

Personally ( and this is only my opinion) i think alot of people who have normal intermedius are just selling them as Chazutas. They might be confused and think now all intermedius are Chazutas or they might just not know what line they are and want to give them a name. Its hard for me to believe that a frog which breeds so well, is hardy and was owned by so many frogers has suddenly banished.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

DamianR said:


> Personally ( and this is only my opinion) i think alot of people who have normal intermedius are just selling them as Chazutas. They might be confused and think now all intermedius are Chazutas or they might just not know what line they are and want to give them a name. Its hard for me to believe that a frog which breeds so well, is hardy and was owned by so many frogers has suddenly banished.


Agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if some intermedius are misidentified as Chazutas. It astonishes me how few are listed for sale. They really are a simple, beautiful, frog to keep.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Frogs fading from the hobby... I think it depends from the fads. For example, Arena Blanca are fashionable compared to Iquitos and Vanzolini are now at the top of wishlist.
As regards the theme of this thread, that's why I appreciate froggers as Stemcellular or Gamble (if I may quote their name), which bred frogs as epips, lugubris or ameerega.
And I personally would do anything for a castaneoticus sexed pair.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I had a lot of intermedius and the cainarachi valley imitator available over this past year....had a lot less interest in those then I did the veradero. I am not sure why for the cv but I felt the lack of interest for the intermedius was due to the chazuta being around....despite them being different.

As for the lines of intermedius.....I was under the impression all originated from same source and there was a very lengthy discussion on it in this forum.

The bandeds are separate though.


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## DamianR (Oct 24, 2013)

mydumname said:


> I had a lot of intermedius and the cainarachi valley imitator available over this past year....had a lot less interest in those then I did the veradero. I am not sure why for the cv but I felt the lack of interest for the intermedius was due to the chazuta being around....despite them being different.
> 
> As for the lines of intermedius.....I was under the impression all originated from same source and there was a very lengthy discussion on it in this forum.
> 
> The bandeds are separate though.


Agreed and as stated before this is all just a fad.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Standard and intermedius were my original favorites when I got in the hobby. Still are. I think the trend is towards this site location data on frogs added to new types.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

mydumname said:


> As for the lines of intermedius.....I was under the impression all originated from same source and there was a very lengthy discussion on it in this forum.


See page 4: http://www.treewalkers.org/sites/default/files/Taxon_Management_Plan_-_Ranitomeya_imitator_0.pdf


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## DamianR (Oct 24, 2013)

Thanks for that post, very imformative..


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks, Ron. But I have some confusion about Tarapoto: if they come from the same area and have the same phenotype, because they should not be mixed? I do not have Tarapoto, but I'm interested in the question. What is the difference (in terms of scientific visa) between Tarapoto (Tor Linbo) and Tarapoto (EU/INIBICO)?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Contradicts what I have seen here. Where is that info from?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/33999-intermedius-lines.html


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

If you're referring to my post, I refer to page 4 of the link posted by Ron.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Not sure what you mean. I posted a link.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

No problem, you're faster than me in writing (because I think in my mother tongue, and then I write in English). I will read the long thread that you linked. Thanks


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

The info in the TMP I linked to represents nearly a year worth of data and lineage collection/research.

Phenotypes can be deceiving...and the TMP was created for possible conservation breeding/management. If the origin of a captive population was unsure (as one of the Tarapoto groups was--they came in from Europe and that's all we know) then it was felt best to 'play it safe' and keep them separate from frogs with very definitive collection data.

Also, some of these areas around Chazuta, etc. are a big hub for frog collection and smuggling: frogs are collected in the surrounding environs and brought back into this area to be held until a buyer or exporter comes along to purchase them. Some have theorized that given the diversity of phenotypes of some species in this area, it's likely that frogs that were collected from different areas were at various points just released here and have begun to naturalize with frogs from that area. That is another reason the 'standard intermedius' and Chazuta frogs were kept separate: again, one had very specific locale data (Chazuta) and the other (intermedius) could have been the result of a conglomeration of frogs from throughout the Huallaga Canyon. The committee that put the document together felt it best to keep them separate simply because there was no way to know.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Haha. Yeah eh thread changes a few times. A lot of he said she said and not sure that all of the people given a line chimed in directly. Maybe twi spoke to the people directly but I am not sure. I see twi people discussing it but I know just having twi next to your name doesn't necessarily mean anything. Ron can chime in here maybe....unless it is sourced in some of those other pages but I only looked at page 4 briefly.

One thing I will note is lines are often made up and given to the person who bred them...ignoring the fact that it came from someone else before that. If you had a website in the past....chances are you had a line. Or if you were a known old timer you had a line....though sounds like a lot was traded between old timers and some of those lines are all one.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I agree separate on chazuta....just see contradicting info on the original "lines" of intermedius. See link I posted and all the he said.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

As far as the TMP I linked to, we tried to stay away from names on lines as much as possible...but when used, we went with the person with whom the captive populations started with in the U.S. (i.e. the original source).

R. imitator was a cluster-mess to figure out, and a lot of things were still unclear...hence keeping frogs separate that seem like they should be combined. There were countless discussions over this by the committee, but in the end it was determined that it was better to keep them separate just in case. 

If you are looking for that one tiny bit of info that is going iron out every wrinkle of confusion on these frogs, you're not going to find it. We spoke with collectors, importers, people in the field, old time hobbyists...and there were still plenty of unknowns. Being content with the mystery behind some of these lines is just part and parcel in the keeping of them.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

rigel10 said:


> No problem, you're faster than me in writing (because I think in my mother tongue, and then I write in English). I will read the long thread that you linked. Thanks


Oh you are lucky by the way. Wish I could read some of the sites from Europe.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I feel you are staying focused on keeping site and non site lines separate but that wasn't where I was going. I will clarify in case I was unclear with an example. The thread I posted it sounded like Nabors line is tarlton but your link shows them as separate. So who is right? And what proof shows as right? My link is he said she said proof. Sounds like twi proof is the same. And I'm sure there is a third speculation out there.

Your side my side and the truth type scenario? Seen people looking for a specific line frog and turn down a frog by a different line when in the end they were the same. Too many names used for some frogs ha.

Are their similar twi reports on other frogs like the one you showed? And how can I view them?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Thank you, you have well expressed my thoughts.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Taxon Management Plans | Tree Walkers International

The purpose of these was to help hobbyists responsibly and professionally manage captive populations contained within the hobby. We stopped creating them as there was little interest by people to actually follow the guidelines set out.

I can only tell you that each TMP had a committee that sorted through all the info, conducted more research, contacted specific people, etc. to wade through the lore and myths of the hobby (much of which can be found in posts right here on DB) in order to get the most accurate information regarding the animals in our possession. You don't have to trust it...but I will say it's more accurate than the average "well I heard someone once say that so-and-so had these and then gave them to someone else who claims they came in earlier via that one guy"...

We tried to sift as much of that out as possible...but to be honest, I don't have the energy to wade back through it and see what else has been added to the conversation. So I'm not sure: it ends up being an endless game of hair-splitting.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Yeah I hear ya. Those were just some points I remembered. Thanks for the info and convo and link. Good to know these things.


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## jdgators (Oct 27, 2012)

thedude said:


> Ya there's a few things I forgot. While not really in danger of falling out of the hobby, there are quite a few UE frogs that aren't too popular either. Like hanheli, altamazonica, yumbatos imitator, blackwater amazonica, several variabilis like rodyll, rio napo, and Borja ridge. flavovittata and uakarii aren't very popular for some reason either.


As a relative newcomer (2 years ago), definitely noticed some of these trends. I have been trying very hard lately to find some Uakarii, but they are hard to come by, and UE won't have any more until the Spring. It's too bad these trends cycle up and down, but I imagine they will start to trend back up as mentioned earlier.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

When I entered the hobby r. uakarii were at the top of my wishlist. Never seen here. Too bad, because among ranitomeya they are always at the top of my wishlist! The same for Borja Ridge, which are my vents (now variabilis) favorites!


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

FroggyKnight said:


> Its so sad when beautiful frogs such as these disappear from our hobby. You covered most of the ones I know of, but there are probably more than that.
> 
> Honestly, I would like to work with all of the frogs you listed. They are all very cool


I you are serious about keeping any of these i keep an number of those species, most of which are breeding. Unfortunately I don't pull tads so much because the offspring are hard to sell.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

DamianR said:


> What most people do not realize is that alot of long time hobbyist hardly use any forums. These are people who have in their collections most of the stuff we think is banished, but behind closed doors u would be surprised at what people are trading. I am not talking about anything illegal but as stated old lines of frogs from back in the 90s. As the saying goes, its not about what you know, but who you know.
> 
> The problem with the hobby is that everyone is always going after the biggest trend. Just two 3 years ago you could not sell a Highland Sirensis for 150 bucks and we are talking adults . . . now people will pay 200 for a froglet. Lets enjoy the hobby more, we arent going to become billionares doing this.


That is true. There are a lot of people who have these frogs but don't mention it often. I would say that about 30 species i keep are frogs that most people don't see very often, or ever in person. I may not have sylvaticus or fancy pumilio but i don't keep alot of other interesting species including the p. auarotenea 'green' gold and wide banded, p lugubris, castis, quins, epips, black, chrome yellow bassleri, red and green trivs to name a few. It would be nice if more people actually worked with them.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

ggazonas said:


> I you are serious about keeping any of these i keep an number of those species, most of which are breeding. Unfortunately I don't pull tads so much because the offspring are hard to sell.


Cool! I definitely do like them, but currently I'm out of space and try to avoid shipping when possible but I will keep you in mind for future frogs. I will probably expand my collection to more epips and some of the uncommon thumbs when I get the chance. I also love the look and behavior of the phyllobates genus for some reason, they are all on my wish list as well

I might be able to make space for imitator morphs soon if anyone in washington wants to thin out their collection

Gotta catch 'em all! (I don't keep my frogs in pokeballs so don't worry)


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

FroggyKnight said:


> Gotta catch 'em all!


Followed a few months or a year later by "Collection for Sale" and concluded with "Why are frogs fading from the hobby?"

This is no stab at you, FroggyKnight, but I can't tell you the number of times I have seen hobbyists build collections too large and too fast, then have to sell it all off because it's become unmanageable. I'd rather see someone keep the same species of frog for 15 years than see someone keep 15 different species for only a year and then get rid of them, which makes it even more difficult to track where things go or end up.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

This is EXACTLY why I call it Pokemon syndrome


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I have not seen import years mentioned in the classifieds lately, other then 2012.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

frogparty said:


> This is EXACTLY why I call it Pokemon syndrome


hehe, I don't actually want to catch them ALL…...and yeah, I knew you would say that frogparty I thought it might be an interesting way to include that we should only keep what we want. That comment was more directed at keeping the frogs we have in captivity around then me personally owning each and every one.

Actually, I only focus on what I like and I know my limit on collection size. Right now I only keep two pairs of vanzos, a single rescued azureus, a pair of banded imitators and a trio of leucs. Not too bad, right? With that said, it does not mean that I will add more in the future, but likely only a couple when the time comes.

I also pick up 'rescues' of various reptiles every now and then WHEN I have the space. For those I act as a temporary home before they find a PERMANENT home.

I'm not a hoarded, guys! It was just a prod to keep the discussion on it's toes

P.S. hope you guys didn't think too badly of me and accept this explanation


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

skylsdale said:


> Followed a few months or a year later by "Collection for Sale" and concluded with "Why are frogs fading from the hobby?"
> 
> This is no stab at you, FroggyKnight, but I can't tell you the number of times I have seen hobbyists build collections too large and too fast, then have to sell it all off because it's become unmanageable. I'd rather see someone keep the same species of frog for 15 years than see someone keep 15 different species for only a year and then get rid of them, which makes it even more difficult to track where things go or end up.


I definitely know what you mean. There have been many people that I've seen sell frog collections that are less than a year old, just so they can try the new coolest species. Others I've known have kept their first reptile/amphibian for 15 years and almost never sell any of their collection. It all depends on knowing what you want, knowing your limit and NOT falling for impulse buys.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

One thing I regret is to see in old threads some froggers (with a high number of posts and a lot of frogs) that now have disappeared from the forum. If they have disappeared from the forum it is probably because they no longer have frogs or - worse - they have no more interest in them.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Or no more interest in the forum is another option.


As for the selling off for something new.../that's the society we live in. Everything is disposable and replaceable. Want something new go get it....the new phone (go upgrade)...the wife (divorce)...new frog (go to dendroboard)


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

rigel10 said:


> One thing I regret is to see in old threads some froggers (with a high number of posts and a lot of frogs) that now have disappeared from the forum. If they have disappeared from the forum it is probably because they no longer have frogs or - worse - they have no more interest in them.


Actually it probably means they got burnt out on the forums and don't post anymore. I've looked into a few people (not in a creepy way!) that I used to see all the time when I got on here, only to find they were active a week before. People don't want the drama a lot of times.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Looks like Greg beat me to it.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

thedude said:


> Actually it probably means they got burnt out on the forums and don't post anymore.


Agreed. Dendroboard is not the center of the Dendrobatid universe, and just because someone isn't active/posting on here doesn't mean they aren't keeping frogs.


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## RobertN (Apr 15, 2006)

I've seen a few pumilios, for example, O. basti goes from rare to common and vice versa... at least 5 times... not sure what cycle they are in now, don't know and don't care... but I like to keep them.
As a few folks already stated, keep what you like.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I hope so. I'd like to see how are now their vivs and frogrooms.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Sorry, just saw this. I have five groups of pTan intermedius and I believe he said they were Nabors line. Have had them for a good 5, 6 yrs. They are one of my favorites. bold and the froglets always have unusual patterns. I don't pressure them to breed and pick out a few tads once in a while. I guess I have been hoarding them


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

rigel10 said:


> When I entered the hobby r. uakarii were at the top of my wishlist. Never seen here. Too bad, because among ranitomeya they are always at the top of my wishlist! The same for Borja Ridge, which are my vents (now variabilis) favorites!


So... why haven't you contacted Understory? R. uakarii are great frogs. Really intense coloring... when you see them. Crazy hard to breed, though. I've had less luck with uakarii than I've had with my histrionicus.

I was surprised not to see Mark Pepper on your list of people you appreciate.... It's guys like him that_ I _appreciate. The frog fad goes in cycles, but Mark has his stuff going. When the Ranitomeya fad comes back I know that thanks to Mark it won't be because thumbs have gone the way of large obligates (although the way I see some frogs treated (as fads), sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better if only certain people could get their hands on them....)


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

SmackoftheGods said:


> R. uakarii are great frogs. Really intense coloring... when you see them. Crazy hard to breed, though. I've had less luck with uakarii than I've had with my histrionicus.


Wow, I didn't know they were that hard to breed! That would explain why they aren't more common. How bold are the little guys? I've often thought of them but I haven't seen one in person yet...


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Don't know about the US but here, the one's with the "real deal" and and all those nice things....well they sure won't post in a forum of an online community full with people who gut one at the first misunderstanding....or where beginners give advices to beginners....


I'd say that most of those who are in this hobby for a long time and can be called pro or semi-pro stay away from online boards..


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

FroggyKnight said:


> Wow, I didn't know they were that hard to breed! That would explain why they aren't more common. How bold are the little guys? I've often thought of them but I haven't seen one in person yet...


They are semi bold. I've never had luck breeding them past tadpoles unfortunately. If you ever want to see them you're welcome to come over to my place sometime.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

SmackoftheGods said:


> So... why haven't you contacted Understory? R. uakarii are great frogs. Really intense coloring... when you see them. Crazy hard to breed, though. I've had less luck with uakarii than I've had with my histrionicus.
> 
> I was surprised not to see Mark Pepper on your list of people you appreciate.... It's guys like him that_ I _appreciate. The frog fad goes in cycles, but Mark has his stuff going. When the Ranitomeya fad comes back I know that thanks to Mark it won't be because thumbs have gone the way of large obligates (although the way I see some frogs treated (as fads), sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better if only certain people could get their hands on them....)


Maybe you have not noticed my location. Unable to contact UE or other sellers overseas, because it is impossible for me to buy live animals from America (it is difficult to buy everything from America due to customs fees, which are elevated so prohibitive). In addition, here, Italy, it is forbidden to ship live animals.
I mentioned two names (Stems and Gamble) at random, the ones that I have come to mind, those of which I got to see vivs and frogrooms. I do not know Mark Pepper, if not for his fame. I'm sure there are many others which breeding LBF or underrated frogs (as Skylsdale, to name another).
Consider that to get hold of the frogs, I do every time 2000 km, traveling day and night. If I had opportunity to purchase frogs with a single click of my mouse, it would be much easier. But here isn't possibile!
That said, never heard of uakarii for sale - I report what some friends told me, which go to fairs and frogdays (the next Saturday to Markhteidenfeld, Germany). Thanks to these friends, I can get the frogs I want, but not all the frogs I want .
Greetings


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

mark pepper ships worldwide. check out his website http://www.understoryenterprises.com/ send them an email and see what they can do for you


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

A couple of years ago, when I informed myself about it, he said on his website to refer to Peruvian Frog Import, its European dealer (which has now changed). However, it is impossible to buy frogs from America: the costs of customs, veterinary visits and various permits make every purchase impractical. (Not to mentions the times).
To give you an example, I paid sea almond leaves the value of $ 5 from Singapore, more than 30 euro for customs fees. To buy outside EU (European Union) is almost impossible; *it is impossible* from America! Customs controls -that are random from other countries outside the EU - are timely and expensive from America.
If not, do you know how many frogs I'd take from you, especially in the market, from private sellers. It also would buy Gorilla glue, Phase panel 22, some wonderful neos that do not exist here, Led lights and so on.
I hope I have been clear, because my English sucks!
Greetings


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

rigel10 said:


> Maybe you have not noticed my location. Unable to contact UE or other sellers overseas, because it is impossible for me to buy live animals from America (it is difficult to buy everything from America due to customs fees, which are elevated so prohibitive). In addition, here, Italy, it is forbidden to ship live animals.
> I mentioned two names (Stems and Gamble) at random, the ones that I have come to mind, those of which I got to see vivs and frogrooms. I do not know Mark Pepper, if not for his fame. I'm sure there are many others which breeding LBF or underrated frogs (as Skylsdale, to name another).
> Consider that to get hold of the frogs, I do every time 2000 km, traveling day and night. If I had opportunity to purchase frogs with a single click of my mouse, it would be much easier. But here isn't possibile!
> That said, never heard of uakarii for sale - I report what some friends told me, which go to fairs and frogdays (the next Saturday to Markhteidenfeld, Germany). Thanks to these friends, I can get the frogs I want, but not all the frogs I want .
> Greetings


I wasn't tearing you down, dude. I was offering a solution to your problem. UE isn't based in America, it's based in Canada, and he ships all over the world. I don't know the Italian laws, but I know he ships to Europe. Italy is small, if you need to make a road trip to a nearby country to pick up your shipment, that sucks, but it's possible. R. uakarii are very pretty frogs, but they seem to be quite under represented in the hobby....

Uakarii can be bold, but they can also be quite shy... all depends on the set up. Unfortunately, many hobbyists, especially newer hobbyists, struggle breeding uakarii. I've had tadpoles for a couple of months, but I've never gotten one to reach the metamorph stage.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I agree. So we do here: we travel to procure the frogs. It is not possible to ship live animals here and it is not possible to import animals from other countries except with permissions and high costs. It costs less travel. Uakarii are very rare, probably for the reason you say, but if I had the chance, I'd take them without a doubt.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

You cant go to Germany and bring frogs back? Thats not a bad train ride?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It is what we do here. There are no alternatives to traveling in Germany or the Netherlands. Tomorrow two my friends will go to Germany for a frogday in Bavaria, with their cars. As for the train, it is not so simple because many international trains pass through Switzerland, which is outside the European Union - so all animals would be seized (I do not know how to say in English, maybe 'confiscated').
A thing is certain: no shipping of frogs here.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

I'll watch out for italian speaking buyers then


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

At least one Dutch breeder has alot of uakarii offspring every year. I can get you in touch with her, no problem at all!


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I do not know this breeder. Maybe you could send me her name in PM. Thanks


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Maybe your friend could provide some information about successfully breeding and raising tads to froglets???


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

After seeing them on display at Calacademy of Sciences I would love lugubris but it seems they are difficult to breed and out of my price range as a result.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I think it's a combination of factors that cause us to lose types of frogs in the hobby. 

As recently mentioned in another post, the hobby is clunky to expand, selling frogs inward to other froggers repeatedly, but not getting enough new recruits. This stokes the hot frog syndrome.

Then we have all the imports, with all the new locales of pumilio, many of which look similar to other red pumilio in the hobby. I never would have guessed the mancreeks would get rare. 

Then there are the other tinc and auratus imports and the notion that new blood is ideal, even though this new blood probably shouldn't be mixed with old blood anyway. (Plus their probably introducing new pathogens to collections) why are green and black auratus and cobalt tincs being imported anyway?

Then there are the Tesoro-type startups which are well intended but competing with all the WC importers and a saturated market.

And there are the frog mills racing to flood the market.

Then there are the fine spot, moonshine, all blues that are artificially selected and favored by some and resented by others

With all of this noise, it's difficult to walk the line and be dedicated to a few types of frogs for consecutive years. Perhaps there is wisdom in working with a small group of other froggers offline and preserving the hobby's institutional memory and frog heritage.

I agree with Ron that too many hobbyists buy too many frogs and get burn out and quit.

Luckily we do have the offline yeomen that have preserved old lines. We should all choose an old line to keep going. I've worked with the panguana green leg sirensis for years and they are so easy to keep they are very enjoyable.


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## Taari (Nov 6, 2012)

Someone mentioned Borja Ridge being less popular, I have 5 and I love them. I have 2 calling males, and I'm hoping the other 3 are females, can't wait to get some tads from them.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

oldlady25715 said:


> Then there are the fine spot, moonshine, all blues that are artificially selected and favored by some and resented by others


 Sorry to get off topic for a moment, but were you inferring that moonshine galacts were line bred or otherwise not natural?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

oldlady25715 said:


> Then there are the other tinc and auratus imports and the notion that new blood is ideal, even though this new blood probably shouldn't be mixed with old blood anyway. (Plus their probably introducing new pathogens to collections) why are green and black auratus and cobalt tincs being imported anyway?
> 
> Then there are the Tesoro-type startups which are well intended but competing with all the WC importers and a saturated market.
> 
> ...


They are being imported because those countries are still open and there's a market for them, that's why they sell. New blood can also be very helpful for inbred lines. If the frogs are from an unknown locality, it doesn't matter much if they are mixed as long as they look the same. For example, green and bronze auratus. And if the locality is known, then you should mix. For example, el cope auratus. If new blood came in for them that would be great because very few came in originally. They probably have the founder effect.

Tesoros isn't actually competing with WC imports exactly. Since what they are breeding aren't being imported. If anything they are competing with smuggled frogs or old line aurotaenias. 

As for the line bred frogs, small spot leucs are actually from a natural population (chocolates aren't), the same goes for moonshine galactonotus. So they aren't actually line bred.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

thedude said:


> They are being imported because those countries are still open and there's a market for them, that's why they sell.


Some perceive there is a market, but I've tried to sell auratus to a good home and it can be difficult, so I don't see a need to take them from their wild homes when there are plenty available for $20 already.



thedude said:


> If the frogs are from an unknown locality, it doesn't matter much if they are mixed as long as they look the same.


I've heard pros and cons to this but disagree with breeding unknown localities based on looks.



thedude said:


> And if the locality is known, then you should mix. For example, el cope auratus. If new blood came in for them that would be great because very few came in originally. They probably have the founder effect.


I agree but it seems there are frequently questions behind whether a locale is correctly reported, especially between many years and among different collectors/sources, take the Chazuta example from a few posts back. 



thedude said:


> Tesoros isn't actually competing with WC imports exactly. Since what they are breeding aren't being imported. If anything they are competing with smuggled frogs or old line aurotaenias.


The point my whole post was trying to make, is the more types of new frogs that come in, the less room there is for old frogs in the hobby. In this sense it is competing with old lines. Perhaps this an oversimplification for more advanced hobbyists.



thedude said:


> As for the line bred frogs, small spot leucs are actually from a natural population (chocolates aren't), the same goes for moonshine galactonotus. So they aren't actually line bred.


Thanks for the correction


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

oldlady25715 said:


> Some perceive there is a market, but I've tried to sell auratus to a good home and it can be difficult, so I don't see a need to take them from their wild homes when there are plenty available for $20 already.
> 
> 
> I've heard pros and cons to this but disagree with breeding unknown localities based on looks.
> ...


That's probably because you aren't trying to sell them to pet shops or on kingsnake. I agree they don't need to be imported, but they do sell. 

It's unknown locals that are most likely from the same area but have no locality data. It's something that people have been coming around to recently. So things like multiple years of Mancreek imports, or Panama green and black auratus, or Cobalt tinctorius. Otherwise we are keeping 10 different separate lines of frogs that look the same and are more than likely from the same area. Not sustainable for the hobby really. Not enough people to keep all those frogs around with a strong gene pool.

Well there are always going to be specific situations where you shouldn't do something. But long standing lines in the hobby that are site specific would benefit from new blood.

I see what you are saying. Although, I find these frogs to be more important since the money they bring in goes to conservation, and they take pressure off smuggling.


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## SCS1014 (Feb 16, 2010)

Wow I've been in the hobby for a whole and haven't heard of most of those species. I also looked up the Cainarachi valley imitator....easily one of the coolest I've seen yet


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

These common color frogs can all go, just as long as we have our premium ART frogs™


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## nilraf (Mar 14, 2010)

A comprehensive list like this may help uninformed hobbyists of frogs to avoid for their first purchass, espcially for breeding purposes. I remember a few years ago there was an effort to classify or trace the geneaology of most people's frogs and where they came from, does anyone know what happened to the idea?

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

rigel10 said:


> One thing I regret is to see in old threads some froggers (with a high number of posts and a lot of frogs) that now have disappeared from the forum. If they have disappeared from the forum it is probably because they no longer have frogs or - worse - they have no more interest in them.


Or they just don't like the direction that the hobby is going or all of the other things that come along with it.
So rather than deal with it, they just choose not to post very often or at all.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Gamble said:


> Or they just don't like the direction that the hobby is going or all of the other things that come along with it.
> So rather than deal with it, they just choose not to post very often or at all.


The forum becomes less and less interesting by the day.
So much less idea sharing, so much more bickering. So many noobs who feel like they don't need to do any research and have all their answers spoon fed to them sans research on their own. 
Also, a lot of the old school froggers have a lot of the old line frogs (no locality info) and as such seem to be falling out of favor with hobbyists rabid for location info. 

I know more than a few amazing froggers who want absolutely nothing to do with DB and are getting soured to the hobby in general due to the way things are going


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

frogparty said:


> The forum becomes less and less interesting by the day.
> So much less idea sharing, so much more bickering. So many noobs who feel like they don't need to do any research and have all their answers spoon fed to them sans research on their own.
> Also, a lot of the old school froggers have a lot of the old line frogs (no locality info) and as such seem to be falling out of favor with hobbyists rabid for location info.
> 
> I know more than a few amazing froggers who want absolutely nothing to do with DB and are getting soured to the hobby in general due to the way things are going


Agreed 100%


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## edward (Apr 20, 2008)

PumilioTurkey said:


> Don't know about the US but here, the one's with the "real deal" and and all those nice things....well they sure won't post in a forum of an online community full with people who gut one at the first misunderstanding....or where beginners give advices to beginners....
> 
> 
> I'd say that most of those who are in this hobby for a long time and can be called pro or semi-pro stay away from online boards..


totally agree, grew up in europe and here, so know the hobby from both sides of the
pond. officially entered the hobby when I bought my first herp from a pet store in
1970 (before that catching tadpoles and newts from the local ponds). go on dendroboard,
canadian, german, swiss, uk etc. boards very infrequently, doesn't mean I am out of
the hobby.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

frogparty said:


> The forum becomes less and less interesting by the day.
> So much less idea sharing, so much more bickering. So many noobs who feel like they don't need to do any research and have all their answers spoon fed to them sans research on their own.
> Also, a lot of the old school froggers have a lot of the old line frogs (no locality info) and as such seem to be falling out of favor with hobbyists rabid for location info.
> 
> I know more than a few amazing froggers who want absolutely nothing to do with DB and are getting soured to the hobby in general due to the way things are going


 The experienced froggers I have spoken to, who used to post here, and now almost only post here when they have something for sale, are pretty consistent in what they tell me. They tell me they don't care for the "group think" that goes on, which does not allow minority opinions. In addition, they tell me it's too time consuming to defend one's opinion on forums in general (not just this one). They do sometimes speak of being frustrated by a lack of respect for their experience from members who have little practical experience.

I have a lot of experience in managing forums. I can tell you that for most people, there is a natural life-cycle to forum participation. Sure, some of the people may tell you that they don't post for any number of reasons, but in actuality it's really for no particular reason other than they reached the end of their life-cycle of forum particpation.

Blaming the "issues" at hand on the "noobs" has been around a lot longer than this forum or any forum for that matter. That's usually nothing more than a couple of codgers talking about how the kids today don't have any respect like they used to. 

Sometimes, the people who feel the most frustrated need to just take a break from the forum. That means any forum, not just this one. If they think they can fight the tide they perceive, they will find themselves one day adding their own name to the list of people who don't post here anymore.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

SCS1014 said:


> Wow I've been in the hobby for a whole and haven't heard of most of those species. I also looked up the Cainarachi valley imitator....easily one of the coolest I've seen yet


I have a breeding pair with a tad that just got its rear legs. Hopefully many more to come. 


Cauchero1.1.0,Almirante2.2.2,Popa1.2.0,Benedicta1.2.0,Vanzolini 2.2.0,Standard Imitator1.1.1,Azureus0.0.3


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## jpm995 (Sep 15, 2013)

I'm relatively new here but agree kind of with the life cycle poster, although i think its more of an individual thing. Newbie starts, asks dumb questions, receives flames and good answers, at some point becomes a senior member, tires of answering the same questions over and over and slowly eases away from forum. Its not that they dislike the forum it a matter of changing priorites and not needing info anymore. New bloodlines keep a forum going similar to our frogs.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

I think I have to disagree with the life cycle idea here...I have to say that I've been feeling similar to Jason and Nick lately too, but my reasons are mainly because when one clicks the "new posts" tab, 5 posts about something negative or some drama pop up with 10+ pages and the nice builds or frog photos or plant threads are severely lacking. 

I'd much rather see and provide input to 15 new threads from new people asking about plant IDs and placement, general husbandry, etc. when I click the new posts tab instead of getting bogged down in failed businesses, infected RETFs, and general bickering, etc.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Spaff said:


> I think I have to disagree with the life cycle idea here...I have to say that I've been feeling similar to Jason and Nick lately too, but my reasons are mainly because when one clicks the "new posts" tab, 5 posts about something negative or some drama pop up with 10+ pages and the nice builds or frog photos or plant threads are severely lacking.
> 
> I'd much rather see and provide input to 15 new threads from new people asking about plant IDs and placement, general husbandry, etc. when I click the new posts tab instead of getting bogged down in failed businesses, infected RETFs, and general bickering, etc.


 You may be correct. We both could be correct. That being said, If you click on a thread and there's drama that you don't like seeing, try to not click on it again. There's really nothing more that you can do.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

My main thing is when I look at new posts after a day and theres 200 of them. Then day after day 90% of them are the same lazy questions. Or I look up an old thread thats really interesting but all the photos are gone. It gets old and Im only going to sort through 200 posts desperately seeking something interesting so many times...because most times only 5 of them are worthwhile. Im only going to search for ideas of lets say a "terribilis tank build" a couple times. Eventually if I keep finding threads without the pictures im going to stop looking.


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