# Feeding maggots



## DaFrogMan (Oct 8, 2004)

I know that frogs get nice and fat on maggots. Has anyone used maggots from outside?

At a nearby dam, people snag carp and leave them on shore to die (they get to be a little bit of a pest in our area.) Anyways, there are always plenty of maggots in the dead carp on shore. I have always wondered if I could use this as a dart food source. What do you guys think?

The lake that they come out of isn't polluted (I've eaten fish out of it) and I don't think they spray for mosqitoes in the area.


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2005)

Or how about maggots sold as fishing bait? Would those be ok to feed to the frogs and what method of dilivery should be used (tweesers, dropind them in front of the frogs, peirced with a took pice)? 

Sorry...Hijack complete.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I would think that gathering maggots from dead animals would be an icky proposition at best. As for maggots sold as bait, the maggots around here are the larva of the blowfly. Blowflies (which include bluebottle and greenbottle flies) lay their eggs on rotting carcasses, so it's likely they will be the same flies you would get off the corpses. I have fed them to juvinile leopard geckos and bearded dragons, and they seemed to enjoy them. Fourth instar blowfly maggots are about five times bigger than a hydei maggot at the same stage, so they might be a bit large for anything but terribilis. As for serving them out, you can put them into a small jar or milk carton lid. Something with contrasting color so the frogs can see them easier.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

In the book Thoughts for Food (got mine from Ed's fly meat) it mentions a danger of the maggots eating through an animal's digestive system if the animal doesn't kill the maggot before it swallows it...don't know if it's ever happened, or just a theory.
I've fed ones from the bait shop to my terribilis and day geckos with no problems.
What I really get a kick out of is raising them into flies, and feeding them to my day geckos they jump around and chase the flies like crazy, and it is surprizing how successful they are at catching them.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

In Erie PA they sell maggots as bait for Steelhead. They come packed in a container with sawdust like mealworms. I have never fished with them, but usually buy a container for my Terribilis, aurotaenia and trivittatus when I head out there. I put them in a jar with a clump of power mix and old fruit for a day or two before feeding out. I also feed these frogs mature flies that I catch with a sweep net. I do the same thing with them: keep them in another container with food for a few days just to be safe. The only problem with the maggots seems to be that they do not move a lot when they are away from food, so sometimes the frogs ignore them. This is only an occasional treat, maybe once a month or so because I have no idea what they are eating when they are raised as bait. 

My concern would be with what the carp contain. Depending on where you live it could be an issue. Here in SE PA the bottom feeding fish are heavily laden with PCB's (hatchery trout are too!) so I would think that they could pass this on to the frogs. Ed K. could probably answer if something like that is likely, but it's something to think about. 

Ed


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> In the book Thoughts for Food (got mine from Ed's fly meat) it mentions a danger of the maggots eating through an animal's digestive system if the animal doesn't kill the maggot before it swallows it...don't know if it's ever happened, or just a theory.


It's a big bunch of hooey. I've heard the same rumors of feeder insects eating out of animals' digestive systems about everything from mealworms to crickets to roaches to superworms. First time I've ever heard it related to maggots, though. It's physically impossible for a maggot to eat through the stomach of a herp. First of all, they have no teeth. They use enzymes to dissolve rotten flesh that has already been softened by bacteria. The stomach is covered in a thick layer of mucus to protect it from being digested by its own acids. Only a few living things can survive in the stomach for long, and those are all microbes that live in the mucus layer.

The rumor probably started from someone's pet that died for unrelated reasons, and the food that was in with the animal started to eat it.


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## DaFrogMan (Oct 8, 2004)

Arklier said:


> I would think that gathering maggots from dead animals would be an icky proposition at best.


I must not have mentioned how much I love my frogs. :wink: 

However I think I'll probably buy some maggots from a bait shop. After what Ed said about PCB's I got to thinking about how much fertilizer and pesticides farmers use around here (I'm in Iowa.) And all of it goes into the lake.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

There seems to be at least two species of maggots in the bait industry. Blowflies are the larger of the ones that I've seen, being about 1 cm in length when stretched out. They are extremely active and make the best bait. The other type is smaller (around .75 cm) and less active. They also look much duller and whiter than the blowfly larva, which are very shiny and seem to have translucent skin.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

> In the book Thoughts for Food (got mine from Ed's fly meat) it mentions a danger of the maggots eating through an animal's digestive system if the animal doesn't kill the maggot before it swallows it...don't know if it's ever happened, or just a theory.


Just to clarify, that is a well written book by Artie Abate formerly of the Chameleon Information Network. I have always hated that she put that in there. It should be said that people fear this event, but yes, it is in fact impossible to have a maggot eat through the GI tract of a herp (Unless it is dead). 

Maggots make great feeders. Yes even the kind from bait shops which most likely have been feeding on cow liver. But in the tropics where do you think the fly maggots come from? Sheer nastiness. But maggots from sheer nastiness are a good food source none-the-less. Off a carp? Ok sure why not? At a bait shop? Even better. Maggots are a good, healthy, nice chunk of goodness any insectivorus creature would enjoy. Use them.
Dave


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Here is a site that sells maggots and various feeders online:

http://www.grubco.com/

I have ordered from Grubco in the past and never had any problems. Their prices are very reasonable too.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip ". First time I've ever heard it related to maggots, though. It's physically impossible for a maggot to eat through the stomach of a herp. First of all, they have no teeth. They use enzymes to dissolve rotten flesh that has already been softened by bacteria. The stomach is covered in a thick "

I know a herp vet tech that has observed blowfly larva passing alive and undigested through the digestive tract of anurans. She was doing some parasite studies on Bufo marinus in Fla and would go out at night and collect the toads and get fecals in rubbermaids sweater boxes so she could run the fecal (she was planning on putting some star tortoises outside and wanted to see what they could potentially be exposed to) what was passed. She was surprised to see the toads passing late instar maggots that were alive. 
In the Atlas of Reptiles and Ampibians for the Terrarium (TFH Publications, Obst et al) it also discusses that in some small herps that the maggots can be passed undigested as well as potentially damaging the digestive tract in small herps (presumably those that do not chew them). So based on that and the observational confirmation, the passage of live maggots is plausible. I cannot confirm if there is damage but based on the mechanism on how they feed that is also potentially plausible. (while they do not have teeth, they have two "hooks" that are used to scrape and dig through flesh). However, puncturing the skin to increase digestiability of the maggots would probably be the best way to insure that these issues are moot points. 

I would recommend not using maggots that were collected anywhere there is a consumption advisory on fish as the fish have been concentrating the toxin and herps seem to be sensitive to endocrine disruptions from trace amounts. Another possible concern with collected maggots is the risk of botulin poisioning that can occur during the hot weather.

Some comments,

Ed


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Without getting into the controversy over whether the blow fly maggots are digestible or not, there were some interesting "experiments" going on in the medical field a few years ago, one of which I witnessed. Blow fly maggots eat only necrotic tissue, not touching viable tissue. In some cases of extensive chronic bedsores and antibiotic resistant skin ulcers, blow fly maggots were placed on these and allowed to feed. (I believe that the Blue Bottle fly maggots were used here.) In all of the cases, including the one I witnessed, the necrotic tissue and attending bacteria were cleaned up down to viable tissue, at which point, the maggots pupated and were either removed, or hatched and flew away. The case I witnessed involved extensive chronic, bilateral leg ulcers that had been under poor control for several years, with repeated surgical debridement, multiple antibiotic treatments, and cultured MRSA and Pseudomonas aeruginosa, both resistant to everything. The patient was close to losing his legs when the attending physician decided to chance trying this decidedly "not standard of care" treatment. The ulcers were completely cleaned up, bacteria and all, and subsequently granulated over nicely. I believe there were some follow-up skin grafts due to the vast area involved. 

I've just come back to edit this after belatedly checking the net to see if anything is actually still going on with this treatment, and indeed it is. If you are particularly interested, you can so a search of "maggots ulcer treatment," and come up with a lot of current information dated January, 2005. They call it "new," but the original article I read was somewhere back in early 1990. I can't recall the exact date of the case I cite, but it was most likely around that same time.


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## Auhsoj27 (Jun 3, 2005)

I've heard concern about wax worms being fed to soft tissue animals... Maybe that's where this debate started. I could certainly see how someone could be worried about a wax worm chewing something from the inside out. They've got some nasty looking chompers.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I don't think there has been a single substantiated case of any feeder eating out of the gastro/intestinal tract of any living herp. The stomach is a very hostile environment, lacking free oxygen and being basically a churning vat covered in mucus and swamped with hydrochloric acid. Pupa might be a different story since they don't require much in the way of resources like air and are encased in a protective cover, but I doubt flies would pupate inside the herp's stomach. Perhaps they were ingested some other way?

My terribilis aren't large enough to eat blowfly maggots yet, but once they are I'll report back. Gonna take awhile, though.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just to be clear, the literature around maggots does not list them as eating through the stomach, it just lists that they may damage it and are passed through undigested. Just remember that the commonly available flies are not typically blow flies (family Calliphoridae) but are a Musca or common house fly. Blow flies are typically the first flies to feed on a carcasse and leave it (temperature dependent) within 10-15 days (typically the carcasse is too dry at that point to continue feeding on the carcasse). 
The stomach is a hostile place but so is a liquifying carcasse....

With regards to waxworms, the literature does not have them passing through alive nor injuring the digestive tract typically what I think occurs there is that the skin is left pretty much intact giving the appearence that the wax worm is undigested (which is why a lot of the literature mentions puncturing the skin of the wax worm). 

There has been a lot of discussion over damage due to various insects to the stomach/intestional tract. The only ones that I am aware of in print was the reference I cited above for the maggots (the problem with the TFH publication is that the vast majority of references were chopped out of the back), and the impaction and gastric penetrations listed in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry (Krieger Press) (mainly due to overfeeding with adult crickets and the ovipositor). 
As I pointed out above, a vet tech I know and trust has seen blow fly maggots passed in the stool of the Bufo marinus but did not necropsy the toads to see if there was damage (but if they are being passed alive then there really isn't any point in feeding them as they are not being digested). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Patty,

You may be interestd in this NIH page 
http://www.nih.gov/nihrecord/07_20_2004/story01.htm

Ed


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## PDFrogger (Aug 23, 2005)

Arklier said before that maggots would be to big for anything exept terribilis, can terribilis of all sizes (small frog, medium frog, adult frog) eat maggots? I am looking for a low cost food to use for my future terribilis besides FF's. 
sorry this is off topic :roll:


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

*bees*

I know its probably a stupid question but what about bees? do you think it would be ok to feed bees to frogs??? cause theres soo many outside flying around the grass ( my dog always eats them ). I was just wondering cheap source of food just go outside with a net or something.


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## felicitedanes (May 2, 2005)

The only type of maggots that eat live tissue are a type of larvae called screwworms. I can't remember genus/species of the fly without pulling out my parasit notes. These flies are not present in the US though, and are a reportable disease if they are ever found here. So, whether or not maggots might pass through the GI tract undigested, they're only going to eat necrotic or devitalized tissue, like Patty said. And there's probably a larger problem at hand if a frog has pre-existing necrotic tissue in it's digestive tract for a maggot to feed on.
Felicite


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2005)

Aren't bees way to big for any dendro?? besides, how do you plan on feeding them without you or your frogs getting stung??


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

I dont knkow but my dog always eats them and she never gets stung ( well maybe in the mouth, but she never shows us and we never check, she always seems ok) and theres more surface area for the bee to sting a dog rather than a frog. and It was just a suggestion feed bees sometimes to my bearded dragon and he never had any poblems with them.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2005)

I would be too afraid to catch them, but let us know how it turns out. Arent they too big though???


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

they dont look too big not even size of fingernail (well not near as fat but about the lenght). I afraid to do it thought because it might kill the frogs. but in the wild the frogs eat poisonous insects all the time so i guess a bee sting is only weak poison so maybe it wont matter if the get stung but i dont know its risky.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2005)

It might not kill them, but they sure wont like it.

IDEA

How about you catch the bees, and have them sting something before feeding them to the frogs. The bees will die soon, but will probably live long enough to wriggle and grab some "unwanted" attention. Then your frogs can eat, or not eat them without fear. Remember, the stingers pop off when a bee decides to sting something.


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

GREAT IDEA!!!
What am I going to get them to sting?!?!?!?!?!?!?
let them sting myslef??? because they will probably only sting living things


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2005)

I have no idea. Ok, maybe one idea, how about a piece of leather or something. Though I dont know how you are gonna get them to get angry at the piece of leather. Maybe there is someone here who is into bees???


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## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

I still think they'll be ignored because they are too big. I would imagine a single honey bee has the mass of about 6-10 hydei.


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## Laxman (Aug 26, 2005)

did you read the whole thread or just add your 2cents. I said not "honey bees" different bees less than the size of my pinky fingernail


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It sounds like you are referring to sweat bees (Halictid bees) and I should warn you that unlike honey bees they can sting multiple times. Try pinning one between your arm and your hand......

Ed


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## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

Sorry... only thing I ever saw was "not bumble bees." I presumed we meant honey. And yes, I did read the thread.

From: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... hlight=bee


> anybody ever tried to feed bees to their frogs ( not the really huge bumble bees , just normal bees) .


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Weird how I didn't notice this thread for so long and I look here several times a day hehe
Anyway, just this week, we came upon an animal carcass covered in maggots. We collected them and tried to feed them to our auratus that we have in a pen. They came up instantly and started chowing down on them. It took them a bit to figure out how to fit them in their mouths, but they ate them no problem and are all fat/happy now. I never would have thought that they could eat them, but i figured we'd try 
HOpe this helps,
B


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