# How to preform a fecal



## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

I have access to a microscope. Is it possible to preform a simple fecal? I would be mainly looking for worms and parasites. Advice? Pictures?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Collegiate level Microbiology course would be a good start...


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## travisc (Mar 30, 2009)

This is the best how-to that I found. Others may chime in with the best one they've found.

HOW TO DO FECAL EXAMS


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

travisc said:


> This is the best how-to that I found. Others may chime in with the best one they've found.
> 
> HOW TO DO FECAL EXAMS


This is a great DIY, however this is not for the novice (13 year old). I am a teacher, I have worked with your age group. Microscopes are great tools and I am sure you would love to look at poo, but you are not ready to diagnose your frogs with parasites. Not all parasites are bad, and some in balance are fine for your frogs.


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## travisc (Mar 30, 2009)

Jason is right. I would probably say either find a frogger in your area that is interested in doing the fecals to help you out. Or shipping the samples to a lab to do the analysis. A local veterinary clinic really wouldn't have the resources to properly identify frog endoparasites. I have the benefit of seeing Dr. Elliot Jacobson on a daily basis at the Univ of FL Veterinary School and usually ask him questions.

I would say if you can acquire some of the cheap laboratory supplies seen in the how-to, then great but if not, I would probably ship fecals or find a frogger locally with microbiology skills.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Also, it's very easy to mistake certain things as eggs, etc. I have a year experience doing monkey and dog fecals and you need a centerfuge. Just a microscope at your house is a fun little project but unless your a scientist of some sort or trained, don't even bother. 

To do a fecal, once you finally get the slide ready, you have to go up and down slowly covering every single spot on the sample. Usually an hour and it's BORING. 

I had some ideas of doing this on my own but I quickly decided not to.
D


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Oh c'mon, by reading his posts you can tell he's not an average 13 year old. His grammar and use of punctuation is better than a LOT of older folks on these boards. Don't write him off so easily, examining fecals for parasites may not be something that is easily done but give him some credit. 


JJuchems said:


> This is a great DIY, however this is not for the novice (13 year old). I am a teacher, I have worked with your age group. Microscopes are great tools and I am sure you would love to look at poo, but you are not ready to diagnose your frogs with parasites. Not all parasites are bad, and some in balance are fine for your frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DJboston said:


> Also, it's very easy to mistake certain things as eggs, etc. I have a year experience doing monkey and dog fecals and you need a centerfuge. Just a microscope at your house is a fun little project but unless your a scientist of some sort or trained, don't even bother.
> 
> To do a fecal, once you finally get the slide ready, you have to go up and down slowly covering every single spot on the sample. Usually an hour and it's BORING.
> 
> ...


 
Dendrobatid fecals are usually done as direct exams as they are so small. As a further issue, care has to be taken to not destroy some of the coccidians that may be present as some do not tolerate hypersaline floats.. 

As a broad grouping, the parasites are usually identifiable by a decently trained vet tech even if they didn't previously do fecals on frogs and questions can be looked up or consulted to get a correct identification. If there is real interest in looking at the fecals, the first step should be aquiring a copy of Understanding Reptile Parasites: A Basic Manual for Herpetoculturists & Veterinarians (see Amazon.com: Understanding Reptile Parasites: A Basic Manual for Herpetoculturists & Veterinarians (Herpetocultural Library - Spec) (9781882770212): Roger Klingenberg: Books ). After reviewing the needed techniques, attempts can be made on reading a fecal or two. It would be a good idea to get fecals read by a professional as well to make sure that they are being read correctly. 

Ed


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

edwing206 said:


> Oh c'mon, by reading his posts you can tell he's not an average 13 year old. His grammar and use of punctuation is better than a LOT of older folks on these boards. Don't write him off so easily, examining fecals for parasites may not be something that is easily done but give him some credit.


Really... What is your degree in, experience...qualifications...professional development...


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

JJuchems said:


> Really... What is your degree in, experience...qualifications...professional development...


Not trying to play devils advocate, but in 8th grade (13 yrs old) I was required in my high school to be able to identify different bacteria, protozoa, different kinds of cells of plants animals etc... And I am not talking about just guess which one it is out of multiple choice, we had to be able to draw them from memory very detailed of what we saw in slides under the microscope. My point being is that the only difference between a novice being able to spot these things and a professional is experience. So if he has someone to double check his findings as Ed mentioned and he continues down that path I don't see why he would not be ready. 

Second point: 

I used to work in a laboratory where we tested the effects of deep oil drilling on the native eco systems where the drilling was being done, to assess if their methods were satisfactory or not. I was a complete beginner and I was/am not a scientist, yet the main lab scientist just showed me what to do and checked my work. The work was not mentally challenging nor was it something a 13 yr old couldn't do. All I needed was someone to show me how to do it and check my work until I got the hang of it. 

My point being you can't just write someone off because of their age, if they are willing and have a mentor I am sure they can do simple identification tasks.


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

How quickly you've turned this into a pissing contest teach.

Im glad I never had a teacher like you, I might have dropped out in the sixth grade. 


JJuchems said:


> Really... What is your degree in, experience...qualifications...professional development...


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

edwing206 said:


> How quickly you've turned this into a pissing contest teach.
> 
> Im glad I never had a teacher like you, I might have dropped out in the sixth grade.


It is teachers like this that have no place in schools where children are present. 

I had a teacher like this back in 1st grade who didn't much believe in her students. Thanks to her I and so many others in my class ended up in special ed the following year. Thankfully she was fired as a result before it could happen to even more children, but the permanently damaged path this lead many of the students from the class in is frightening. 

If a child is headed in the right path towards something, encourage it, nurture it, etc!!!

To the OP if this is something you are really interested in perusing do not give up because some adult tells you that you will never succeed.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Arpeggio, you never cease to amaze me. I hope you'll post the results of your fecals (with pics!). 

(and by 'your fecals' I of course mean the frog's fecals, lol)


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## Uniceros (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks for those who stood up for and are encouraging the OP. Unfortunately I was discouraged a lot in school. I would say just use the opportunity to prove people wrong! The information you need is out there.

I was thinking of trying this myself... Perhaps I'll go for it now. It might take me a while to buy equipment, but I've got the rest of my life to learn anyway, right? The bio degree helps... Just before anybody tells me I'm not qualified


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

This won't be my first time. We've prepared slides and looked at protozoans, the epidermis of lettuce, even our own cheek cells. I think I will try it, though.


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

Arpeggio said:


> I have access to a microscope. Is it possible to preform a simple fecal? I would be mainly looking for worms and parasites. Advice? Pictures?


The op asked for advise and pics because he was interested in learning something new. As members of a forum we should point him in the right direction such as Ed and the other gentlemen were doing with supplying links to that information. If he does this, regardless of his age, and thinks he finds anything of concern then he could submit fecals to a vet to have the frog professionally diagnosed and then treated. My point is....all too often on forums people are sized up based on a perceived experience level or intelligence and then dismissed. We should instead provide them with the proper information and resources and then let them deside if it is something they think they could do. Reading through the fecal article it doesn't seem like an easy task but if the op feels up to the challenge I encourage him to do it. Maybe he grows up and becomes this awesome herp vet that us older people send our frogs fecals too. Good luck buddy and don't let anybody ever tell you that you shouldn't try to learn something because it will be too difficult....only you can make that decision for yourself.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Arpeggio,
I think your asking cause your just interested in what you might be able to see. 
Check out this thread.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/66614-strongyloides.html

I don't claim to "run fecals" on my frogs, but I have looked at quite a few, just to see what I might see. I just add one turd and a few drops of water and mix to seperate into a slurry. It was/is interesting for me. I was surprised to see full ant bodies, ant and termite heads don't digest. I was also surprised by the amount of sand particles, and wondered if sand doesn't maybe help them digest.
I was just curious like you, especially after reading some threads that state "our frogs are just a bucket of worms", except for my one sick frog, I very rarely see any worms. But I *know* there is a vast array of things besides worms that can cause problems in our frogs that I won't identify by simply looking at some liquid poo.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> It was/is interesting for me. I was surprised to see full ant bodies, ant and termite heads don't digest.


In a number of taxa that feeds on high fiber (chitin) food sources, pinworms (oxyurids) play a role in assisting in digestion. In the other taxa these mechanically break down the higher chitin items. 




Reef_Haven said:


> I was also surprised by the amount of sand particles, and wondered if sand doesn't maybe help them digest.


It doesn't help them digest... but it is an important indication of how some nutrients enter the frog... for example, calcium can be aquired by ingestion of particles of soil while capturing the prey. This is where substrate can be important.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

edwing206 said:


> How quickly you've turned this into a pissing contest teach.
> 
> Im glad I never had a teacher like you, I might have dropped out in the sixth grade.


 



Arpeggio said:


> This won't be my first time. We've prepared slides and looked at protozoans, the epidermis of lettuce, even our own cheek cells. I think I will try it, though.


I am assuming you are doing this at school where risk are managed. There are zoonotic infectious diseases that put you at risk. It is not something I am going to recommend students to do. There are precautions such as gloves you need to follow. 

Looking for fun is one thing to do (science fair) is one thing, examining to make a diagnosis is another. Fecals refer to examination and diagnosis of an issue. This is something that needs to be done by a trained eye. I have ran fecals from my experience working with a vet and zoo. It takes time to learn.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

hexentanz said:


> It is teachers like this that have no place in schools where children are present.
> 
> I had a teacher like this back in 1st grade who didn't much believe in her students. Thanks to her I and so many others in my class ended up in special ed the following year. Thankfully she was fired as a result before it could happen to even more children, but the permanently damaged path this lead many of the students from the class in is frightening.
> 
> ...



since I actually have a 4th grader at the school Jason teaches at, I will say this is a bogus comment. I believe he is just being honest.


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

Reef_Haven said:


> Arpeggio,
> I think your asking cause your just interested in what you might be able to see.
> Check out this thread.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/66614-strongyloides.html
> ...


Thanks for the link, and yes I guess I shouldn't have used "fecal" to describe what I shall be doing. Just taking a look to see what I can find, and get a real fecal preformed by a specialist if I see anything weird or even if I don't.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Arpeggio said:


> Thanks for the link, and yes I guess I shouldn't have used "fecal" to describe what I shall be doing. Just taking a look to see what I can find, and get a real fecal preformed by a specialist if I see anything weird or even if I don't.


That's what I expected and I see nothing wrong with this. If you do want to eventually run your own fecals then this would be a great way of getting experience. Look first for yourself, record and research your findings, then verify it against a professional fecal.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

JJuchems said:


> I am assuming you are doing this at school where risk are managed. There are zoonotic infectious diseases that put you at risk. It is not something I am going to recommend students to do. There are precautions such as gloves you need to follow.
> 
> Looking for fun is one thing to do (science fair) is one thing, examining to make a diagnosis is another. Fecals refer to examination and diagnosis of an issue. This is something that needs to be done by a trained eye. I have ran fecals from my experience working with a vet and zoo. It takes time to learn.


 For a teacher you are very assuming!Were you ever a student or always so smart and experienced ?How did you get so EXPERIENCED ? Don't be so hard on the kid.


Apreggio get the experience by practicing and have your work checked.Learning is knowledge! Keep up your ambition as you and others like you are the future to our hobby!

Lou


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

oddlot said:


> For a teacher you are very assuming!Were you ever a student or always so smart and experienced ?How did you get so EXPERIENCED ? Don't be so hard on the kid.
> 
> 
> Apreggio get the experience by practicing and have your work checked.Learning is knowledge! Keep up your ambition as you and others like you are the future to our hobby!
> ...


I don't personally know Jason, but I do know that before becoming a teacher he worked at Wildlife Prairie Park and Glen Oak Zoo. That is probably some experience.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> I don't personally know Jason, but I do know that before becoming a teacher he worked at Wildlife Prairie Park and Glen Oak Zoo. That is probably some experience.


I'm not questioning his experience.My point was at one time (maybe a long time ago) he had NO experience and had to learn as well.We all had to start somewhere!I don't think we should discourage a youth (The OP) from posting a question or from learning,especially from a TEACHER! Who knows he might turn out to be a scientist,a biologist, or more if encouraged to follow his ambitions. The kid is curious and was just trying to gain some experience even if it is small steps ,its a start.

Lou


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

oddlot said:


> I'm not questioning his experience.My point was at one time (maybe a long time ago) he had NO experience and had to learn as well.We all had to start somewhere!I don't think we should discourage a youth (The OP) from posting a question or from learning,especially from a TEACHER! Who knows he might turn out to be a scientist,a biologist, or more if encouraged to follow his ambitions. The kid is curious and was just trying to gain some experience even if it is small steps ,its a start.
> 
> Lou


And, if the fecal was misread, the frog could DIE. I believe this was the point. As the mention of a Vet test ALSO came about later.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> This is a great DIY, however this is not for the novice (13 year old). I am a teacher, I have worked with your age group. Microscopes are great tools and I am sure you would love to look at poo, but you are not ready to diagnose your frogs with parasites. Not all parasites are bad, and some in balance are fine for your frogs.


I told him he is not ready to diagnose his frogs. Looking is fine but it needs to be done with precautions he is a juvenile. And yes I did mention a microbiology class, there are plenty of known and unknown protozoa/bacteria/fungi that could be present. A good class will help skim the surface of what could be there. He has his health and the frogs health to be concerned about. Diagnosis should be made by a veterinarian. 



oddlot said:


> I'm not questioning his experience.My point was at one time (maybe a long time ago) he had NO experience and had to learn as well.We all had to start somewhere!I don't think we should discourage a youth (The OP) from posting a question or from learning,especially from a TEACHER! Who knows he might turn out to be a scientist,a biologist, or more if encouraged to follow his ambitions. The kid is curious and was just trying to gain some experience even if it is small steps ,its a start.
> 
> Lou


True, he can do what ever he wants in life. He could be next great archer, but I am not going to recommend he go out and make his own bow or shoot with out his parents present.

He could also culture bacteria and see the effectiveness of hand sanitizer versus hand washing (a lab I do with my students). But we control this to reduce the risks. (Tape petri dish shut and they are not removed from the plastic ziplock bag after incubation.) You have no idea what your going to grow just as you have no idea what is in the fecal material. 



Scott Richardson said:


> I don't personally know Jason, but I do know that before becoming a teacher he worked at Wildlife Prairie Park and Glen Oak Zoo. That is probably some experience.


I have only work at Wildlife Prairie State Park but know keepers at Peoria Zoo (Glen Oak). Past president and current board member of the Central Illinois Herpetological Society. I was one of younger presidents of the group at 18/19 and was the youngest to run for public office in my hometown at age 19 until this year when the youngest was elected.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I believe in _most _cases, the people who become great at something start out interested in it as a child. We adults need to encourage children when they want to learn, not hamper the curiosity. My oldest son was very interested in computers as well as tearing things apart and putting them back together (often resulting in new uses for the item). He is now 22 and works on and operates the Tomahawk missile for the US Navy. He chose this position because it involved what he loved to do. If I would have squelched his desire to learn about such things as a child because he was "too young" to mess with such things...I wonder how different his life would be now?

Of course, there are definitely precautions that need to be taken in this case. Arpeggio needs to keep his own safety as well as the safety of his frogs in the forefront of his mind at all times. Hopefully, he has someone close by to guide him. But, other than that...I say...Good for You, Arpeggio!


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> And, if the fecal was misread, the frog could DIE. I believe this was the point. As the mention of a Vet test ALSO came about later.



If you read my earlier post I told him to get experience by practicing and to have his work checked for that reason!




JJuchems said:


> True, he can do what ever he wants in life. He could be next great archer, but I am not going to recommend he go out and make his own bow or shoot with out his parents present.
> 
> Apples and Oranges!
> 
> ...


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> You have no idea what your going to grow just as you have no idea what is in the fecal material.


I don't see how there is any more risk when performing a fecal than when doing any sort of tank maintenance where there is fecal matter everywhere.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> I believe in _most _cases, the people who become great at something start out interested in it as a child. We adults need to encourage children when they want to learn, not hamper the curiosity. My oldest son was very interested in computers as well as tearing things apart and putting them back together (often resulting in new uses for the item). He is now 22 and works on and operates the Tomahawk missile for the US Navy. He chose this position because it involved what he loved to do. If I would have squelched his desire to learn about such things as a child because he was "too young" to mess with such things...I wonder how different his life would be now?
> 
> Of course, there are definitely precautions that need to be taken in this case. Arpeggio needs to keep his own safety as well as the safety of his frogs in the forefront of his mind at all times. Hopefully, he has someone close by to guide him. But, other than that...I say...Good for You, Arpeggio!



Thanks Wendy,that was the point I was trying to get across exactly!


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

A young teenager can do anything they set their mind to....I'm a little hesitant to think that any young teen can hold their attention span long enough to care. Not always true though. 

My advice...go out and be a kid! lol Chase girls, hang out with friends. There's always time to work on career stuff. I bet if you asked 100 13 year olds what they wanted to be when they grow up, maybe 2% actually become that later in life.

If my son was doing fecal exams I'd be proud he was smart enough to take on the challenge...but I would rather see him out there being a kid. 


I just think there are more important things he could be doing that's all. Don't want to be known as the kid that looks at frog poop all day lol

And I don't see the point in doing your own fecals only to make sure you have a professional check them as well. Why not just have the pro do it from the get go? Only way that seems smart to me is if you're trying to test your work and see how close you were.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Scott Richardson said:


> And, if the fecal was misread, the frog could DIE. I believe this was the point. As the mention of a Vet test ALSO came about later.


Scott, this doesn't account for the huge percentage of hobbyists that don't practice pro-active discovery and treatment of their frogs. Many people believe that animals have a natural bio-load and there's no reason to treat every little thing unless there is a problem. So lack performing a fecal and reading it wrong would be worse if an animal was treated that didn't need it. I know this is a very involved topic on it's own though. It's like politics I prefer not to talk about haha


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DJboston said:


> And I don't see the point in doing your own fecals only to make sure you have a professional check them as well. Why not just have the pro do it from the get go? Only way that seems smart to me is if you're trying to test your work and see how close you were.



As with many things, have someone with experience check your work to catch errors is crucial to learning.... think of it as having your homework checked for errors.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DJboston said:


> Scott, this doesn't account for the huge percentage of hobbyists that don't practice pro-active discovery and treatment of their frogs. Many people believe that animals have a natural bio-load and there's no reason to treat every little thing unless there is a problem. So lack performing a fecal and reading it wrong would be worse if an animal was treated that didn't need it. I know this is a very involved topic on it's own though. It's like politics I prefer not to talk about haha


 
And there are some notable veterinarians who keep in mind that treating could be worse for the animals depending on other criteria.


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

That was interesting! It was neat to see how many undigested parts there were... You could make out the exoskeletons of the fruit flies, their legs, and their wings. Even the hairs were still there. Neat.

EDIT: Oh and I didn't see anything. I kinda figured that, the frog was completely fine (I don't know why some people thought it was sick..)


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Very cool!!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I hope people realize that the great Devin Edmonds started his famous website while still a teenager. 

I published an article for the International Carnivorous Plant Society on cold hardiness of warm temperate carnivorous plants my sophomore year in HS in the June 2002 issue.


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