# Advantages of a Vivarium Over a reef?



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

I posted this on Reef Central, so I thought I should get the other side of the argument. I can't keep both, but what are the advantages of a vivarium over a reef?

If I did do a vivarium I would love a vertical 40 gallon or so nicely planted with a red-eye or two.


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Wallace Grover said:


> I posted this on Reef Central, so I thought I should get the other side of the argument. I can't keep both, but what are the advantages of a vivarium over a reef?
> 
> If I did do a vivarium I would love a vertical 40 gallon or so nicely planted with a red-eye or two.


I still have a small established reef tank that I love, but I now have 5 vivaria with dart frogs. One plug for the viv is that it's a lot easier to breed dart frogs than it is to breed reef fish or propagate inverts (except for the soft corals and some groups of anemones). And, except for the occasional pistol shrimp, reefs are pretty quiet.

Also, I hate big water changes.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Cost. It is wayyyyyyy cheaper to build and then maintain a vivarium.

Simplicity. Reefs are much more involved then vivarium. 

I keep and enjoy both but find that the vivariums pretty much run themselves once they are completed.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Vivariums are a lot less money and a lot less time/ work than reefs. My reef isn't looking so hot... I really hate all of the maintenance and water changes involved so I've slacked off for a while now. I really need to tear down and restart it... Also, vivariums do not need such pristine and stable parameters. If the temp goes up or down 3-4 degrees in one day it won't rtn all of your sps corals. The plants grow much faster so you don't need to wait forever for coral to grow in, and even very nice plants are much cheaper than expensive corals. Vivariums take up much less space/ weigh less and cost less in electricity bills to run. I know some people who are into reefing with the chillers, very powerful lights, pumps, skimmers, etc., the electrical bill is outrageous. Lastly, while this certainly isn't always true, if you put some effort into it, you can at least make some money that you put in back from breeding the frogs. You won't always break even, but it's an excuse to get more frogs/ tanks/ plants/whatever. This is much harder to do with reefs because fish breeding is usually very hard and the cost involved to grow corals will usually mean even if you frag/sell frags you won't actually make a lot back, it might cover electrical costs. For me, my reef became a money pit. I was constantly throwing money into it for equiptment and livestock, but got zero in return. Someday my bangaii cardinals will breed again, maybe then I'll get more stuff for it. On the other hand, 80% of my "frog money" comes from selling the frogs I bred.


----------



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Blah, it's becoming harder and harder to choose between the two the more posts I see. (ironically enough)

I may just try for both in the end


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I know what you mean. Honestly as much as I prefer a viv to a reef, I just can't stay away from reef tanks, something always draws me to them. It's really to bad that they cost so much more. Fortunately, I have acquired all of the supplies I need, so I really just need to restart and rebuild. I didn't know anything about reefs when I first started ( I used an ugf, crushed coral, and tap water with 110ppm nitrate ) So yeah my tank is great- for hair algae. I love the fish though. Coral will come. I say get both but keep it simple, especially with the reef. I have a hard enough time funding my 30 gallon, I couldn't even imagine something like a 180 gallon full reef.


----------



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

I may just jump for a viv and wait a while to start a reef.

I'm really, _REALLY_ digging the look of a 40 gallon vert. Some of the ones on the board are phenomonal...


----------



## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

I had a 40g breeder for a reef tank and it look beautiful for a few months but then it started going downhill. I had expensive skimmers, wavemakers, etc. so equipment wasn't the problem. The corals just consumed too much and the tank needed way too many additives daily to keep everything looking perfect. 

I think those reef tanks you see in magazines where the owner says he does nothing to the tanks is a bunch of bunk. I guarantee they are way involved with those tanks several hours a day. IMO vivs are much less time, minus the fruit flies


----------



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

JaredJ said:


> I had a 40g breeder for a reef tank and it look beautiful for a few months but then it started going downhill. I had expensive skimmers, wavemakers, etc. so equipment wasn't the problem. The corals just consumed too much and the tank needed way too many additives daily to keep everything looking perfect.
> 
> I think those reef tanks you see in magazines where the owner says he does nothing to the tanks is a bunch of bunk. I guarantee they are way involved with those tanks several hours a day. IMO vivs are much less time, minus the fruit flies


It probably wasn't the tank tbh. Reef tanks are so complex though, I can see how anyone would have that happen...


----------



## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I've kept reef tanks and anemone/clownfish tanks for over 30 years. I've been keeping darts for about 2. 
I am contemplating changing my 55 gal display reef that I have built in to my living room into a vivarium. But as I am writing this, I think I am talking myself out of it.
Yes, the reef is more maintenance, but people really enjoy them and spend a lot of time looking and asking questions about the fish and corals, and they can actually see the fish and corals.
Vivariums are a lot like planted aquariums, yes some of the plants are cool, but most people have seen plants and aren't as into them as we are. The other problem is that people would love our frogs, if they could actually see them. When they do see them, its like, "cool frogs, are they poisonous?" and that about ends it.
I think the bottom line is, when I show people my vivariums and frogs, I am always disappointed by their reaction, to the point that when my wife says, "Phil, show them your frogs!", I really would rather not. On the other hand, I have friends who will go to my reef tank and look and ask questions several times during the some visit. 
So, I have just talked myself into keeping my reef tank, but it really depends on what is important to you. Is it maintenance, cost, what makes the best display or some other factor that is going to drive your decision.


----------



## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Cost basically. I've kept multiple vivs and as soon as I got started researching reefs and the costs were just to much to fathom at the moment....depends on what your wallet looks like


----------



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Ok, that about decides it. I would probably wither of old age if I didn't force myself to decide. I'm going with a Viv for now, a reef will be something to look forward to a little later down the line. 40 gallon vert here I come...

Well, thanks everyone for your fantastic input!!


----------



## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

i have kept reef tanks for over 20 years. i love them...when all is well. recently 90% of my zoanthids were lost to zoa pox. a slow painful, ( to me) , loss. also i have had infestations of nuisance starfish, worms, etc. over the years. when things go bad for me it is always a slow process and this is what i hate most.
and i agree with phender that when people come over they will stare for hours at my 180 gallon in the wall reef tank. the symbiotic relationships of the inhabitants is alway a topic they love to hear about.
so far i have had one visitor to see my frogs and it was another frog person.

but like alot of people here that started with reefs and then set up a viv i am slowly making the transition. if could get 25% out of what i put into my 180 i would break it down tomorrow. how many times have all us reefers thought that?

AG


----------



## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

My 20G reef needs more attention than the 8 vivs I keep


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I got into freshwater aquariums and had one off and on as a kid then decided to get serious about it in college but soon after setting up a tank the idea of having something like you see at the zoo struck me, and I started looking around to see if it was possible. 

I'd heard of terrariums, and had reptiles but, with very simple tanks. To my surprise there was a whole hobby with these things called paludariums and vivariums...had never heard of them. After seeing pics of a few nice examples I rapidly switched focus.

Turns out I kinda had a knack for it and even my first tank turned out pretty sweet, but probably not as impressive as a lot of people's first reef tank assuming they did it right. I think most people would find that it is easier to make a first reef tank truly impressive visually. I mean basically a big pile of live rock in a well maintained tank with nice choice of fish is instant awsome. 

A truly impressive vivarium usually takes some knowledge of composition (learned or innate) and artistic skill to create a long with some kinda intuition or something, a special kind of eye to make something that both looks like something you might see in nature, but is also kind of an idealized surreal version yet still looks "natural". 

You need to do your hard scape in such a way that everything looks natural, and not to symmetrical. Any pond or water feature needs to be done in such a way as to blend in and not look artificial which can be hard at first. And a knowledge of plant types and growth habits can do wonders for the visual impressiveness of your tank and cutting down on the maintenance. 

I think a reef tank is easier to set up and make look natural and really impressive from the start though it will probably be much harder and more costly to maintain. In my opinion it is totally possible to create a vivarium that rivals any reef tank, but to finally get to the point where your vivs are as impressive as a reef tank it will likely take several tries at least.

I've built over 20 vivariums and it is easy to see the progression of the learning curve and artistic style. My hard scape and water features get more and more intricate a long with my plant choice becoming more diverse. And it all comes together in a way that is usually more visually impressive then the last viv. I think my more recent vivs rival most I've seen even with the limited plant selection I've had to date, though I've definitely seen better. Of course I may be biased  

The current viv I'm doing is the culmination of everything I've learned so far and the progression of my artistic skill to this point, but I can still see so much room for improvement and places to go with the "art". Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there isn't an art in reef tanks and aquariums in general. My god just look at the work of people like Takashi Amano...I'm striving for that level of "art" in vivarium form...I'm getting there, but I've still got a ways to go.

Just for reference I'll include a few pics of old and newer vivs to put my words into perspective 








First viv after some tweaking and remodel....I couldn't find a good pick of its very first incarnation, this one is definitely an improvement.








I think this is the second large viv I did...not bad, but so far to go still.








Most recent remodel of first viv...getting there.








Ok at this point I think I'm starting to rival the average nice reef tank. IMO 








status quo...maybe slight improvement.

I don't have pics of the newest one yet, it has a lot of growing in to do, and isn't even done being planted and still working out some plumbing issues. I think it will come out better then any of my past vivs though.

I think its is important to mention also, that it is easier for a viv first planted to look good, or one thats grown in some...If it maintains that level of appeal for a year or more then I think thats evidence of a better design and overall is more "artful". Thats one area where I've improved a lot...I'm much better at making it so my viv looks better over time instead of worse without interference from me, and minimal maintenance. I still have a ways to go before I reach an artistic level in vivarium like Takashi Amano has with aquarium, but then my guess is for the most part it takes a crap load of maintenance to keep his tanks looking like the pics you see.

Anyways my point is I've been doing this for 6 years, and its only in the last 2 years that I feel like my vivs approach the visual appeal of a nice reef tank. I think I could have done a reef tank with as much visual appeal within the first 2 years. Certainly there are examples of reefs and even vivaria that blow mine out of the water though.


----------



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

An insightful post Dave. Your tanks are amazing, even your early ones...


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Wallace Grover said:


> An insightful post Dave. Your tanks are amazing, even your early ones...


Thank you sir


----------



## johnnygecko (Apr 11, 2010)

I have a reef tank and 2 vivs. I enjoy all of them, however, the reef tank is significantly more work. Once you let parameters shift by not staying on top of things regularly it becomes twice as hard to correct the problem. Just today I noticed flatworms again, this will be my third battle with them and I have always dipped and quarantined coral. It can become frustrating. I have not had any problems with my vivs and I find them very easy to maintain. I do notice people pay attention to the reef tank significantly more than my vivs but if the displays are for you then what other people like will not make a difference.


----------



## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Can you post a link to the reef central post? I'm curious to read their responses.


----------



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

markbudde said:


> Can you post a link to the reef central post? I'm curious to read their responses.


Actually I only got one reply (surprisingly enough).



> I have had both and it really comes down to your preference. A reef tank is by far more day to day work: testing water, scraping algae, water changes, etc... A viv can be just as challenging but if you don't cut corners and set it up correctly than they become pretty easy to take care of. Installing fans to keep the humidity off the viewing glass is a nice touch as well as misters on a timer. Now if you get into dart frogs thats another story because you WILL have to breed your own flies as a food source or it will get very pricey.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I would have posted but haven't been on RC in a couple of weeks. I know there are at least a few members on here and Reef Central, somebody from here started a frog thread over there awhile ago in the lounge there. The one thing that really can be harder for some people with vivs are the fruit flies if you have dart frogs, but it really isn't a big deal and you get used to them quickly. It's still way less work than a reef.


----------



## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Wallace Grover said:


> Actually I only got one reply (surprisingly enough).


Thats because you posted on reef central. 

I was into reefing for a while and it is a VERY expensive hobby. I think in my first year I spent atleast 20k on equipment and coral. Not to mention all the time that has to be put into it. I spent atleast two hours a day between scraping glass, feeding fish, caring for fry, managing cultures ect. ect. ect. I sold my nano cube to fund my first dart build










The frogs have been pure zen, Cultures are effortless, tanks run themselves, just wipe down the glass everyonce in a while and feed the frogs. Can't get any better than that.


----------

